A Response to “Do You Want to Date a White Guy…?” Article

A while back a friend of mine suddenly announced that she was going to start dating white guys—

Some black women have always been open to interracial relationships and never let the opinions of others stand in their way. But not all black women have that gumption. Fear of being ostracized, losing friends or some other consequence keeps them silent on the subject. Unless they quietly test the waters with friends to see if they can get any type of support regarding their interest.

“The minute he asks you what you do with your hair at night, you’re going to rip his head off and go on a rant about why is it that you know about his hair, but black people been in this country 500 years and he is still ignorant.”

She laughed because she knew I was right.

About her friend; not all black women are hung up on our hair and what non-black people think about it. Some of us don’t freak out if we get caught in the rain. Some of us are avid swimmers. Or we simply don’t need or expect a guy to know everything there is to know about our hair. She may have been right about the mentality of her particular friend when it comes to IRR dating (getting caught up in superficial BS that means squat in terms of actual relationships). However the implication seems to be that yet again, black women have to jump through “special hoops” if they’re going to be courted by some man who’s not Tyrone.

You know what? I agree that a black woman who is interested in interracial dating should expand her social circle and be open to things not necessarily deemed “black”. Black women tend to be among the self-segregated of all women socially, which certainly can get in the way of meeting that non-black love interest. But it’s not just about knowing white women and holding certain beliefs about white people, etc. It’s about where your heart is and whether or not it’s open to being loved by someone who’s simply not black. If you don’t have that, everything else is meaningless. Ladies, you could meet the love of your life on a train tomorrow. It happened to these persons. It happened for reasons which had nothing to do with prerequisites or understanding how black hair works. The truth is that some black women will be alone the rest of their lives because God forbid a man does step to them who doesn’t know the first thing about cornrows, weaves, and lace-fronts.

And while they collect dust somewhere in the corner, other women will be making the decision that a man was worth loving because he was willing to prove it through actions that meant something. Like insisting on marrying you before impregnating you. Maintaining the financial stability of your household through a willingness to work. Being a father to his children 24/7 and giving them not only his name, but his love and support and 50% of the child-rearing responsibilities. Things that ensure your future health and happiness in the romance department which have absolutely nothing to do with racial stereotypes. These are things that so many black women pass on because they look at the skin first, and everything else second. If those things get so much as a glance at all.

It was like my old co-worker, who happened to be white, who had a black fetish and would go on and on about the first time she visited Washington, D.C., and there were “so many beautiful black men everywhere.”

“Don’t you think black men are beautiful?” she said to me, all breathless and starry-eyed.

“Some of them are,” I said.

“I just think they’re so gorgeous and sensual.”

“Um … my dad is a black man and my grandpa is a black man and all my uncles are black men. I went to school with a lot of black men. Black men are kind of just ‘men’ to me. Some of them are good-looking, some are nice. Some are complete assholes. I mean, they’re people.”

She looked so disappointed after I said that. She really wanted to someone to join in her brother-love fest.

I am missing how this scenario is anything like what happened with her friend. Her friend said that she was interested in dating interracially. Interest in dating someone outside of your race is not hero or deity worship. It is certainly not a fetish either. A sexual fetish is generally defined as being sexually stimulated by something ordinarily not seen as desirable. For example, a woman is fixated on the color blue and can only have sex on sheets of that color. Yep, sounds like a fetish. Or you have a man that enjoys the smell of old shoes and is turned on by foot odor. Again, definitely a fetish. But finding another human being sexually attractive? Not a fetish.

When does it become a fetish? When you are completely incapable of being sexually stimulated by that person apart from their skin tone. You fixate on it to such a degree it’s clear that the person in question doesn’t matter, just their skin tone.

While I do think the co-worker in question was laying it on rather thick, there is nothing abnormal about being interested in interracial dating or finding persons of other groups attractive. Unless it becomes obvious that they are expecting a head-pat or a cookie.

How can someone date white men, but not like white women?

Define “like” first of all. Do you mean want to skip merrily through fields of sisterhood and friendship? Or do you mean the general assumption that black women hate all white women because of racism aka those sorry white jezebels won’t stop taking all the good black men and now I’m going to go in the corner and “wince”?

Eh?

Having women friends from other ethnic groups can be useful in meeting men who are also a part of those ethnic groups. Or they can be the biggest c*ck-blockers on the face of the Earth. Black women have commented here in the past about black men who went out of their way to “block” them from getting with white guys. Just because you consider someone your friend does not automatically mean they are receptive to your interests. They may let their own biases and beliefs get in the way of your happiness. And these things may not manifest until the subject comes up. And then….you aren’t friends anymore. But as your relationship plans weren’t necessarily the first thing out of your mouth when you started developing that friendship, is it something you see coming? Certainly not. Because that’s often not why people become friends in the first place.

Also, you don’t necessarily need to ingratiate yourself with the white female collective because you will be dating one of “their” men. Social skills are definitely desirable, but your focus should be on the man you want to be with, not trying to pass some sort of acceptance test so that your relationship is approved.

1. She could date a white guy if she wasn’t the first black woman he ever dated. (That way she avoids the “is he clueless or is he racist” divide.)

2. If that’s not available–black are men still men, but without the pesky hair explanations.

And that’s it. Wait, where is the part where we figure out whether a woman wants to date a white guy or a guy that just happens to be white? Here, it seems like the best case scenario for the friend is to either assume all white men who haven’t dated black women previously are clueless twits or racists or stick to black men, because even if there are more pertinent levels of dysfunction she needs to be avoiding, the most important thing to this particular friend is that he gets her black-woman-esque hair.

Do we not regularly see rants about black men making “good hair” comments and having “pool tests” to distinguish which kind of black women are desirable? Just because a black man gets why a woman is all wrapped up in her hair doesn’t mean he’ll offer emotional support. In fact, some DBR black males are not above contributing to the mental complexes some black women have.

The fact is, a man of any race should not be so overly invested in your hair and your skin tone. Furthermore, not all black women are slaves to their hair or FIXATED ON THE LOVE AND APPROVAL OF PEOPLE WHO HATE BLACK WOMEN. Some black women elect to go into the interracial relationship arena expecting to have to find a mate among a sea of bigots and are looking at who is racist and who doesn’t want them. They do this rather than focus on characteristics of a man that signals he loves and appreciates her for who she is, characteristics not beholden to race or ethnicity.

Was the argument for telling her friend to be wary about dating white men based on hair & having a white female friend? WOW! LOLOLOLOL! I can’t stop laughing that’s the most idiotic thing I’ve ever seen in my life. I thank God that I decided to look after my own self-interest & date who I liked & let the stupid chips of others fall where they may.

@eugeniaberg I think there was a good point she had the potential to make but it was lost in translation. Mainly in a sea of assumptions about human nature and the key ingredients for love and romance.

I think the fact that she was speaking on something she both clearly had no interest in or inclination to support for other black women was also a contributing factor. It always seems like the people least interested in black women dating interracially are the ones with the most “advice” on the matter.

@Toni_M Yea whatever point she was making went totally out the window. It seems to have gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. I also don’t understand why anyone who has no interest in dating IR or a desire to see anyone happy wants to speak on the subject of black women dating IR. I swear once everyone gets over the I’m a black girl and I’m a white guy thing which takes probably all of a week, it’s just like any other relationship. Men are curious about many the rituals of women. I had a long discussion with my husband about rolling my hair & why I shave my legs. That article was just an opportunity for whomever was the author to rant about why why black women shouldn’t date white men, plain & simple nothing was insightful about that drivel.

Elfe

@Toni_M @eugeniaberg ” It always seems like the people least interested in black women dating interracially are the ones with the most “advice” on the matter.”

So true!

MDNA2

hear,hear eugenia! 🙂

Marcie

Havent been to church for a while but PREACH!

AnInterestedObserver

If there was this gigantic pool of White/non-Black men making their attraction to & willingness to persue Black women for SERIOUS romantic relationships, then I feel this would not be an issue. Black female hair is a serious, complex issue that should not be so easily dismissed. I really do not understand how people talk about wanting to raise the self-esteem of our young Black girls, yet dismiss almost every issue unique to the Black female experience. Hair, stupid questions being asked about a Black woman’s baby much lighter-skinned/non-Black featured due to a non-Black father, etc. This insistance that the garbage pumped into Black women’s heads since girlhood is “not that serious” is disappointing & frustrating to say the least. As was pointed out in another topic here, White men who have Black male friends are oftern NOT very fond of Black women, and I will go it one further and say that includes White males who are very heavily influenced by American popular culture, which looks kindly on Black males. I also do not understand why it is taboo to acknowledge that Black men often reject Black women as partners in favor of White women, and if Black women are not happy about that, then she is to be mocked & shunned. Why? For what reason? What does that accomplish? Why does a Black woman wanting to date/marry Black means she “wants” to be disrespected and not taken care of properly? I have said it once and I will say it again, that so many Black women want a Black man is NOT the problem, the problem is that so many Black men think Black women are worthless and behave in a manner that confirms such when they get into a relationship with a Black woman.

I am really disturbed by this need to mock & blame Black women because a lot of idiot men Black, White, & otherwise choose to act like they have no damn brain in their heads when it comes to dealing with Black women.

but yah, I think AIO’s heart is in a good place but it’s quite hard for me to understand it all sometimes?… like I honestly don’t feel that I’ve been super-duper put-upon by AA men. I just don’t. Maybe my family spoiled/sheltered me too much? I dunno. & I’ve never paid a ton of attention to random strangers’ or acquaintances negativity…my parents, esp my dad, would just call them ignorant and to keep focusing on what I wanted from life.

I don’t see IRs as a kind of lifeboat or my husband as a saviour from My So-Called Black Life. My parents would’ve clobbered me if i took up with any color of Impregenator (the 7 baby mamas impregnation machine type)Thug. There were Euros that I brought home to meet them that got the thumbs down so they weren’t Toms impressed by ‘whiteness’ or ‘self-haters’ that only wanted me to date ‘out’. They just wanted me to choose wisely, avoid pitfalls etc.

I agree that things are definitely out of whack in some segments of the larger AA community but I just don’t see how going on about how hateful *some* AA men are and how we’re despised is helpful. I want to keep hope that the girls/women who desire marriage, love, and a decent life can reach these goals with men of any color.

Christelyn

@Elfe @dasdbobb @eugeniaberg Hey Elfe, don’t have your email so I didn’t know how to reach you, but I’ll be in SF July 1-5…would love to have our kids hook up somewhere…

Elfe

@Christelyn @dasdbobb @eugeniaberg

That would be cool! I’ll email you. Did you get my note about opening a new After Dark post?

@AnInterestedObserver , it was a stupid article and like it or not, not all black women are going to be all the same page. Not all of us can be friends because not all black women are looking out for the interests of other black women.

I do not have time to say or think “but that person putting a knife in your back wouldn’t do it if it weren’t for black men!”

I must now tell you to have several seats, because you are speaking from a place of privilege: You are not a black woman, and no matter how much you love black women, you will never be one. You can not speak for us. You cannot co-opt our voice and our interests and tell us how we need to feel about ourselves and each other.

This is something black women need to do for themselves. And for each other.

This is one of those situations, like so many where you are simply going to be underfoot. Because as much as you love ALL black women, you cannot deal with the reality that not all black women love themselves or love each other. Or are willing to be good to and honest with each other. Or are capable of offering valuable feedback and insight to each other. Or….in some cases are simply trifling as hell for no other reason than because they are trifling.

I am not going to be shut up on matters concerning black women and things I feel are best for us. I really do not care what the race or gender is of the person putting a road block in my way is. I’m not inclined to be polite to or about something I find questionable at best and utterly poisonous at worse.

AIO, I understand how you feel, but I’m not inclined to care when it comes to situations where I’m dealing with stereotypical attitudes and behaviors being lobbed at me. I as a black woman do not have the privilege of being an outsider. I have to say something regardless of WHO the person is I feel is wrong. I can’t afford be quiet because it goes against my principles that I need to feel sorry for black women everywhere. I reserve empathy for those that deserve it. And I debate and argue with points of views I disagree with. And where tough love or out and out telling off is required, yes, I do that too.

AIO, there is something you need to understand, and understand it well: being an ally to black women sometimes means knowing when to be quiet and let them talk amongst themselves and not try to co-opt or control their discussion and their point of view.

Toni, let me assure you that I was never trying to co-opt a Black women’s space, not control the discussion, nor anyone’s point of view. I thought we were free here to disagree and express different points of view. I was doing just that, but you bringing up the gender difference changes things. I certainly do not want to be seen as a co-opter of of Black women’s spaces, but at the same time, just as you do not want to be silenced, neither do I. No, I am not a Black woman and you are right, I will never be one. However, I eat, sleep, and breathe Black women, and Black female civil rights is the thing I care most in this world about. I think certain things are not beneficial to helping the Black female cause, I think NO Black woman or girl should EVER be blamed for certain things that ARE the fault of Black men, White women, White men, and other anti-Black female racists,, and I will NOT back down from having those views. You obviously disagree with me on those points. That is fine, but if I cannot express my views without being thought of as some co-opting outsider, then I will remove myself from this arena. I KNOW in my heart that I am NOT a co-opter of Black women’s spaces, but if you and other women feel that I am, like I said, I will remove myself from this arena out of the great love & respect I have for Black women & girls. So good luck and lots of love to you & the other sistas here.

“Toni, let me assure you that I was never trying to co-opt a Black women’s space, not control the discussion, nor anyone’s point of view. ”

I believe you don’t *intend* to do this, but sometimes, yeah you do. I wouldn’t call you on it if I didn’t observe the behavior. But because I know you don’t mean to do this, I figure I’d let you know so you can stop doing it.

“I think NO Black woman or girl should EVER be blamed for certain things that ARE the fault of-”

Stop. I am a believer of self-accountability. At a certain point, a person, a grown person, must be responsible for themselves. You have a woman’s magazine (Sorry @Bunny77) that is actively undermining the desire of black women who are interested in dating out, living better, etc.. I am not interested in checking the race or gender of the person in question if I find their behavior problematic. I will not be moved in this regard.

I am not going to pretend that all black women are helpless, mindless, victims, and that no one is capable of thinking for themselves. Such behavior is a slap in the face to the sensible women here who oppose such behaviors any way they can. Who can easily tell the difference between actual victims and saboteurs.

The color of the snake and the gender of the snake mean nothing to me. A snake is a snake is a snake. I don’t question why a snake is, I just avoid getting bit.

“I will NOT back down from having those views”

No one is asking you to. You are more than welcome to them from the several seats you are having during discussions where it’s clear that you are more inclined to stifle members who have problems with persons who happen to also be black women, and are not inclined to treat them with kid clubs.

Because like it or not, as I’ve told you, not all black women are on the same page, will agree, and some of them are out to harm the interests of other black women. While I don’t think this article was an extreme example (“Stupid” is a bit mean, but I suspect it’s because I was half sleep when I first replied), in any case where someone says or does something I find questionable, I’m going to respond. I could care less whether or not you approve, and I will simply not be stifled.

@AnInterestedObserver
“Toni, let me assure you that I was never trying to co-opt a Black women’s space, not control the discussion, nor anyone’s point of view. ”

I believe you don’t *intend* to do this, but sometimes, yeah you do. I wouldn’t call you on it if I didn’t observe the behavior. But because I know you don’t mean to do this, I figure I’d let you know so you can stop doing it.

“I think NO Black woman or girl should EVER be blamed for certain things that ARE the fault of-”

Stop. I am a believer of self-accountability. At a certain point, a person, a grown person, must be responsible for themselves. You have a woman’s magazine (Sorry @Bunny77) that is actively undermining the desire of black women who are interested in dating out, living better, etc.. I am not interested in checking the race or gender of the person in question if I find their behavior problematic. I will not be moved in this regard.

I am not going to pretend that all black women are helpless, mindless, victims, and that no one is capable of thinking for themselves. Such behavior is a slap in the face to the sensible women here who oppose such behaviors any way they can. Who can easily tell the difference between actual victims and saboteurs.

The color of the snake and the gender of the snake mean nothing to me. A snake is a snake is a snake. I don’t question why a snake is, I just avoid getting bit.

“I will NOT back down from having those views”

No one is asking you to. You are more than welcome to them from the several seats you are having during discussions where it’s clear that you are more inclined to stifle members who have problems with persons who happen to also be black women, and are not inclined to treat them with kid gloves.

Because like it or not, as I’ve told you, not all black women are on the same page, will agree, and some of them are out to harm the interests of other black women. While I don’t think this article was an extreme example (“Stupid” is a bit mean, but I suspect it’s because I was half sleep when I first replied), in any case where someone says or does something I find questionable, I’m going to respond. I could care less whether or not you approve, and I will simply not be stifled.

@Toni_M@AnInterestedObserver ”
I am a believer of self-accountability. At a certain point, a person, a grown person, must be responsible for themselves.

I am not going to pretend that all black women are helpless, mindless, victims, and that no one is capable of thinking for themselves. Such behavior is a slap in the face to the sensible women here who oppose such behaviors any way they can. Who can easily tell the difference between actual victims and saboteurs.”

@Toni_M you know my mantra, self-love equals self-interest but it also means self-responsibility. BW cannot sit around waiting for bm to have a ‘come to Jesus’ moment before we get the gumption to be about our own self-interest. We can’t wait for bm to call us beautiful,& worthy, heck bw are beautiful & worthy of live just by existing. You know I’m an advocate for those that are abused in relationships particularly emotionally but I am not sitting around encouraging women to be helpless, hapless victims not my style. It’s still your responsibility once you figure out what’s going on to get the heck out of there and figure why you picked this person & how not to do that again. That gives women power, it empowers them to know they can make better choices, to have better lives. As long some try to see bw as victims of bm only, bw will never gain the power to extract themselves from toxic situations & ppl. You ‘re right on the money w/ your post.

@eugeniaberg “That gives women power, it empowers them to know they can make better choices, to have better lives. As long some try to see bw as victims of bm only, bw will never gain the power to extract themselves from toxic situations & ppl.”

BINGO!

Some black women will learn and grow and be empowered. Others are not. Even worse, others will try and fall in the way of other black women who they don’t agree with. And they will be WRONG for doing so.

You don’t have to let anyone hold you back, certainly not just because you have ethnicity and gender in common.

dasdbobb

@Toni_M
My wife used to holla tht a couple times a night! Bingo that is. LOL

@Toni_M ”
AIO, there is something you need to understand, and understand it well: being an ally to black women sometimes means knowing when to be quiet and let them talk amongst themselves and not try to co-opt or control their discussion and their point of view.”

Thank you for saying this!

Bunny77

@Toni_M Another thank you to Toni. This discussion board is — first, foremost and ultimately — a place for black women interested in living a full, unfettered life unburdened by other people’s race and color issues. We decide what we want to discuss and how the discussion should go.

The mission of this board and other gathering spaces for WOMEN is completely lost when those who are not black women attempt to hijack the conversation with their own agendas, even if they think those agendas are positive.

@Bunny77 I think sometimes people mean well, but unless what they’re doing is pointed out to them, they can miss the harm. Even if that harm is unintended.

Another gentlemen showed up, as I mentioned up thread, basically accusing this space of being part of some “hyped up social media conspiracy” because it wasn’t a NBAB den. This person wanted to correct our POV because *he* felt it was problematic that our space didn’t tell black women to go to Africa and find a husband. (….What?)

People show up here all the time trying to shape the POVs of the person here, and tell us what we can and can’t or should and shouldn’t discuss.

This is one instance where I doubt the person meant any harm or disrespect, though. I appreciate the poster’s dedication and honesty. But, it’s important to remember that the women here are not fragile and helpless victims. We’ve got functioning minds and hearts. And we also deserve a space to express our opinions. To agree, and yes disagree.

Black women are not a monolith and we never will be. There will be no resolution where we are all “saved” or “see the light” or simply agree to even agree to not back-stap and undermine. Such is life.

@Bunny77
I think sometimes people mean well, but unless what they’re doing is pointed out to them, they can miss the harm. Even if that harm is unintended.

Another gentlemen showed up, as I mentioned up thread, basically accusing this space of being part of some “hyped up social media conspiracy” because it wasn’t a NBAB den. This person wanted to correct our POV because *he* felt it was problematic that our space didn’t tell black women to go to Africa and find a husband. (….What?)

People show up here all the time trying to shape the POVs of the persons here, and tell us what we can and can’t or should and shouldn’t discuss.

This is one instance where I doubt the person meant any harm or disrespect, though. I appreciate the poster’s dedication and honesty. But, it’s important to remember that the women here are not fragile and helpless victims. We’ve got functioning minds and hearts. And we also deserve a space to express our opinions. To agree, and yes disagree.

Black women are not a monolith and we never will be. There will be no resolution where we are all “saved” or “see the light” or simply agree to even agree to not back-stab and undermine. Such is life.

Bunny77

@Toni_M I do agree with you, and agree that AIO is not at all like the few trolls we’ve seen in the last few days (or before that) who want to turn this site into a “NBAB den.” I don’t think AIO means harm or disrespect.

In this case — which I think you addressed very well — it was more a matter of overstepping bounds and perhaps even invoking a bit of male privilege versus wanting to control black women’s thoughts and actions.

If a non-BW poster wants to cosign points of view here or present an outsider’s perspective that’s complimentary, I’m all for it. As long as that person recognizes when to step back and just listen…

Elfe

@Toni_M @Bunny77 “Another gentlemen showed up, as I mentioned up thread, basically accusing this space of being part of some “hyped up social media conspiracy” because it wasn’t a NBAB den. This person wanted to correct our POV because *he* felt it was problematic that our space didn’t tell black women to go to Africa and find a husband. (….What?)”

@AnInterestedObserver “I also do not understand why it is taboo to acknowledge that Black men often reject Black women as partners in favor of White women, and if Black women are not happy about that, then she is to be mocked & shunned. Why? For what reason? What does that accomplish?”

If bw aren’t happy about it, there ain’t a damn thing to do about it. There is actually a blog about unhappy bw who ‘want their men back’ – as is they have been stolen…lol. That type of blog will accomplish nothing. As for our hair, it’s not that big of a deal for all bw. Depending on hair type, some don;t have all this difficulty with the hair.

@kiki100 @AnInterestedObserver I am rolling because we basically had someone show up here crying about “where are all the BW desiring African/black men?!” I was like, “Seriously, dude?” Are you saying you CANNOT FIND a black woman on the internet interested in finding a black man?

O__o

And yes, yes, yes, it’s really NOT the be-all-end-all for all of us. My hair is as kinky as they come. Ask me if I give a hoot. Fluff, pat, flowers and boom – out the door. o/

Elfe

@kiki100 @AnInterestedObserver “”I also do not understand why it is taboo to acknowledge that Black men often reject Black women as partners in favor of White women…”

That’s fine as long as it is not taboo to acknowledge that there are many AA women that don’t really give a damn. Seriously! …Whether it’s through upbringing/environment, experiences, personality quirks, aesthetics/attraction wiring…logic etc. there are women here who just aren’t concerned (aside from preventing young vulnerable AA women from becoming collateral damage.)

TWISI, no one can take something or someone that’s meant to be in my life, so I’ve never been daunted by stats, or proclamations of doom…or Euro women in African clothes(little joke there). If i’d been meant to marry an AA or afro-something guy, it would have happened. My dating and marrying Euro wasn’t retaliatory or ‘something new’ (this for me implies a pre-existing problem & exasperation with AA guys and desire to ‘jump the fence’). I never dated enough AA guys to feel exasperated. Because of where I was (physically/location, mentally/personality, interests & hobbies, standards etc) I just chose from the best of the guys that were interested in me.

As you know from other threads, I don’t have issues about AA men who are IR dating/married. Unless they’re publicly slandering AA women, I assume that they’re just another couple is in love/lust/like. I have men in my family married IR and I’ve never heard them say negative, anti-AA women things or act in a hateful way.*shrug*

I’d like more discussion about improving the lot of the younger women and less about how almost everyone hates us. I get it but it don’t see how cranking on & on about it actually helps anything. Also I can’t worry about the shrill cries of NBABs, or the brothaz whispering the ears of dumb gullible rainbeaus. I mean really, why should I (we?) care?

AIO, You have been here a long time and I have to say that I am rather surprised at the tone of this post. However I do feel that you asked these questions in good faith so I am going to answer each in kind. Why because if you can ask a series of questions like this then to me that means some one else out there is not grasping the concept of what this space is all about and to my mind it is important that they do.

“If there was this gigantic pool of White/non-Black men making their attraction to & willingness to persue Black women for SERIOUS romantic relationships, then I feel this would not be an issue.”

This is a numbers game AIO. The AA population numbers roughly 40 million people, both sexes, all ages. The US population numbers roughly is 311 million. Do the math. There 271 million non-black person in the US. There are far more non-blacks in the US than blacks.
True the majority of non-black men are not checking for black women. The majority of black women are not checking for non-black men. So what? Of the people who are interested in crossing race lines to date and marry there is a far larger pool of non-black males of all types interested than there are black women. As it has been said before a woman only needs one man. So which is it? Fish in the smaller pool or the larger one when you are looking for a mate.

“Black female hair is a serious, complex issue that should not be so easily dismissed.”

No. Hair is a bunch of dead fiber that all mammals on the face of the earth grow for protection. Human beings place a lot of social significance on it and Black women have take this to foolish levels in some cases making hair the root of their self esteem. Want to help young black girls have a sound sense of self. Spend time developing and nuturing what is in her head instead of what is on it.

“I really do not understand how people talk about wanting to raise the self-esteem of our young Black girls, yet dismiss almost every issue unique to the Black female experience. Hair, stupid questions being asked about a Black woman’s baby much lighter-skinned/non-Black featured due to a non-Black father, etc. This insistance that the garbage pumped into Black women’s heads since girlhood is “not that serious” is disappointing & frustrating to say the least.”

We are discussing this here because it is important. It is not being dismissed. We know this is serious. Love us as you may you are not the target of this poison. We are and we will deal with it as women do but talking about it. Not all of us age going to agree or have the same level of seriousness about it but this is how women work things out.

“As was pointed out in another topic here, White men who have Black male friends are oftern NOT very fond of Black women,”
O kaaaaay

“ and I will go it one further and say that includes White males who are very heavily influenced by American popular culture, which looks kindly on Black males.”
Hummmmm, Allllright.

“ I also do not understand why it is taboo to acknowledge that Black men often reject Black women as partners in favor of White women,”

That is not taboo here. Why would it be this is an IRR site. Love who you what. Black men can reject black women all they want. Have a party. We are not checking for black men.

“ and if Black women are not happy about that, then she is to be mocked & shunned. Why? For what reason? What does that accomplish?”

As far as the black community giving black women a hard time when the complain about the out marriage rates of black men we have answered that also. A lot of the black community is jacked up. What can I say? Those women need to stop worrying about what black men are doing. They are not the only game in town. We here really do not give a fig about who black men are dating or marrying. That takes our energies away from what we want to do which is hook up with non-black men.

“Why does a Black woman wanting to date/marry Black means she “wants” to be disrespected and not taken care of properly?”

No you have it wrong. A black women who rejects a quality man of any race in favor of a DBR-BM because of some sense of race loyalty is a fool. THAT is want we are saying.

“ I have said it once and I will say it again, that so many Black women want a Black man is NOT the problem, the problem is that so many Black men think Black women are worthless and behave in a manner that confirms such when they get into a relationship with a Black woman.”

Sure that is a problem and sites like this one offer one solution there are others out there but we are not going to address them here. This is my advice to black men who have issue with black women. Black men need to do a better job in vetting the black women that they date. Maybe black men should speak out against traits that black women posses that they find disturbing. Maybe black men need to expand their dating and marriage pool to include non-black women so that they can find mates that suite them.
Oh snap….black men are doing that and have been doing that for decades. The internet is full of black men all to happy to broadcast every thing that they don’t like about black women. Black men are dating out in numbers far greater than black women.

Black women are now using the same game-book for themselves and it is about time.

“I am really disturbed by this need to mock & blame Black women because a lot of idiot men Black, White, & otherwise choose to act like they have no damn brain in their heads when it comes to dealing with Black women.”

That is on you. I am sorry that we do not seem to be getting as worked up on these issues as you often do. Like it or not AIO black women screw up and we screw up big time on occasion……….just like every other human being on earth. Why? Because we are human nothing more, nothing less.
Further we should be able to laugh at ourselves for some of the stupid things we do.

I know that you would like to see some sort of movement with banners, speeches and marches in the streets to change the hears and minds of black men and black women re their dating options.
This is not the place and we are not the women. Again we don’t care about what black men in general think. We. Left. Them. Behind. And. Are. Not. Looking. Back.
As for black women it is about choice. Mate out or die out……..or don’t. It is your choice.

tonyrog

@AnInterestedObserver Go on youtube search for Professor Banks. He states their are more NBM willing to date and marry BW than their are BW available. You must look for the quality man they are their. Nobody said you won’t find a**hole in any race, but you have a larger pool to pick from.

I will never understand those who object to dating WM based on hair. I can tell you from my own REAL LIFE experiences – from dating only white men, to being married to a white man for 11 years (and counting!) , to working with and socializing with mostly white people – they DON’T CARE ABOUT OUR HAIR! In fact, I get more compliments on my hair and my appearance from white people than I do anyone else!

Bunny77

@The Working Home Keeper And I still am scratching my head as to why so many BW are more willing to take advice about IR from BW who either haven’t dated IR or only went on a few dates with a non-black man… but they’ll ignore advice from the happily coupled BW in an IR relationship who tells them from long-term experience that WM don’t care about their hair!!!! (or any of that other silly stuff they’re worried about — like skin color)

oekmama

@Bunny77 @The Working Home Keeper Because that whackadoo advice feeds into their insecurities and BECAUSE hair has always been so important to them, they cannot conceive of anyone to whom hair would NOT be as important.

Bunny77

@oekmama @The Working Home Keeper Good point. It’s easier for humans in general to hold on to their fears and blame outside forces (even if none exist) for their failures, rather than do the internal work needed to effect a positive change… so it’s easier to try to push off one’s own hair issues on a random white guy instead of addressing WHY hair is such an issue that it affects your dating choices (but only in one direction… black men going on and on about nappy hair is not a problem, of course. Sarcasm intended.)

KfromVA

White people in general really do not care about our hair. Men in particular do not base who they will date or marry on something as trivial as hair. Think about how much time you devote to thinking about their hair, well that’s about how much time they devote to thinking about ours. My mother always wore her hair natural because it is more “versatile” and she never worried what others thought because she said that our hair did what it was suppose to do. If it frizzed due to the weather it was supposed to frizz it’s not the end of the world. If you wanted it straight you could straighten it, if you wanted it curled you could curl it, if you wanted a fro (her favorite) you could wear it in a fro. My aunt, whose philosophy on hair was much different from my mother’s, (my mother’s twin) was visiting us and my mother was about to leave to go to the mailbox one morning when my aunt said “You’re going out with your hair like that?” (hair tightly curled fro)My mother “Yes, my neighbors are white.” LOL!

Bren82

@The Working Home Keeper I agree with you. We care about it more than they do. My husband has NEVER asked me about my hair texture though he, like many men, will express dislike regarding certain hairstyles.

@Bren82 Same with my husband! He has a certain length he prefers, but that’s about it!

Elfe

@The Working Home Keeper @Bren82

With mine, he strongly prefers my natural hairstyles…the flat ironed look isn’t a fave. …Fortunately,*my* hair is on *my* head so I’ll fry periodically( I get bored!), let him pout a bit, then I go back to my regularly-scheduled kinkiness. lolz.

TWHK, re: length, my dh likes my hair on the longer side , well… the *larger* side is a better way to describe it. :>

dasdbobb

@Elfe
As long or short as you all may wear your hair, if it is kept clean and neat,WE DON’T CARE!! GET IT? WE LIKE IT. Sorry, got carried away for a minute.

Elfe

@dasdbobb @The Working Home Keeper @Bren82 @KfromVA LOL.. i think part of my husband’s thing about the flat-iron is that one year I over-indulged and it ended with me asking him to cut ( sidenote: it’s funny because for years, my late dad would cut my hair because I didn’t trust the stylists anymore) like 5 or 6 inches of my hair. My ends were a crispy wreck. LOLZ I’ve learned to do it in a safer way so I’m not expecting the same mess as before but i think that in his head there’s an ‘uh-oh.’

but yah, you’re right, none of the other guys I’ve known seemed to care at all(short, long, curly, kinky, extensions, straightened) as long as the woman looks good.

i remember in the 90s i was dating a guy and I’d gotten hair extensions, I was a little nervous because I’d heard/read some AA men railing against & joking about extensions and weaves etc. so I explained to him about the hair and he was like ‘kewl! you look great’ that was it.The End. lolz

My pet theory about the difference in attitudes is that some AA men see it(added hair) as a kind of ‘bait and switch’. The ones that have the mindset to filter for only women with very long(or loosely curled) hair to marry/mate w/ probably want to pass this trait onto their children(not sure if this is subconsciously or what) . So a woman with ‘fake hair’ kinda bolloxes up that plan. I can’t think of another reason why it would be such a huge deal.

No wait. It could also be a status issue, so having a woman with longer real hair might be like having an authentic designer item and so the woman with the extensions is like a counterfeit one? lol

What’s also crazy is that when my own hair was longer, the weave-checking & ‘is that all yours?’ questions ensued..from total strangers! Damned if you do/…don’t. I couldn’t bear being around anyone who found hair *that* deadly serious.

@Elfe @Bren82 Yeah, my husband likes longer too. He prefers chin length and longer, so that’s how I keep my hair. I’m not natural but I don’t use heat on my hair. I usually have my hair in some vintage inspired style – rolls in the front, curls down the back with my flower pin on the side.

For most of the white men I dated, “natural” hair just meant you didn’t have a weave LOL!

dasdbobb

@The Working Home Keeper
When my wife went to bingo, she used to complain about all the BW that came up all touchy, feely saying”you’re so lucky as they rubber her hair, back, shoulder. She wasn’t lucky, she’d been playing bingo for 40 years and just knew when she would hit. there wasn’t a week go buy where she wouldn’t bring home 2-250 a week. The best thing about this is she always came home and gave me 1/2 of what she won. But she would get so angry with all thee BW there, espesially when they tried flirting with me when they thought she wasn’t looking. I’d see her looking, and she just smiled when I just went about my own bussiness and left them alone. Most of them were also married or going with someone. My wife trusted me, and knew there was no temptation there. Sorry, a little off topic. Won’t happen again.

It is so hard. My father died in 06 and i’m still a wreck somedays. Not to be a bummer but it’s awful being the one(s) left behind. Death is so frackin final feeling, from this side at least. I want to believe I’ll meet him again somehow but even that belief wavers. I dunno. It’s a real heartcrushing SOB type of experience, I know that much.:<

MixedUpInVegas

@dasdbobb @Brenda55
I understand, dasdbobb. Long, happy marriages should not be forgotten easily. I was married to my first husband for 30 years before I lost him. Even though I have since remarried, I still love my first husband and he will forever be in my heart.

Remember her and think of your happiness together. At least you had that. Not everyone does.

I’m done with Clutch. It’s an anti-IRR magazine. It’s part of the Matrix. Period.

oekmama

Well, to me, the underlying theme is how do bw choose their friends.
If my friend comes to me and says, ‘Imma date some white guys’, my first response would be ‘good for you!’ and offer to help in any way I can. If a person is coming with 101 whackadoo reasons and distractions about why you can’t, then that is not a friend.

oekmama

(Posted before I was finished)
So this *You don’t have any white girlfriends* is a whackadoo distraction as it has nothing to do with the real issue. Swirling.
*He doesn’t know about bw’s hair* is also another distraction. I’d call it superwhackadoo, coz that so-called friend wants to kill your confidence. Sew the seeds of doubt.

So what if this guy doesn’t know about bw hair? It’s dead-easy to answer the question. Here’s one variation:

@oekmama A lot of black men don’t know about black women’s hair either (weaves and wigs don count).

grrlysquirrel75

That article is a straight-up mess! I was the first black woman that my ex dated and none of the ish mentioned ever came up. He’s open to dating women of all races and actually liked a black girl in high school but didn’t have the guts to step to her. As for the whole thing with black women’s hair, those that are really deep into their hair are not very likely to look outside their own race for a man. Sad, but true. I’m currently rocking the curly ‘fro and get many compliments from white people. Black folks, not so much, because I’m running around all nappy-headed, hahaha!!!

@grrlysquirrel75 I was also the first black woman my husband dated. Same for most of the white men I dated. It wasn’t an issue at all! But then again, I don’t center my life around my race and my hair!

Also, I agree, women that are overly wrapped up in their hair to such a degree likely will not date interracially anyway. I just wonder why these persons with this particular consideration and other superficial considerations often move themselves into IRR discussion anyway? Don’t date interracially. It’s simple. If it’s not for you, don’t do it.

Also, I agree, women that are overly wrapped up in their hair to such a degree likely will not date interracially anyway. I just wonder why these persons with this particular consideration and other superficial considerations often move themselves into IRR discussion anyway? Don’t date interracially. It’s simple. If it’s not for you, don’t do it.

grrlysquirrel75

@Toni_M The fact that they keep stepping into the IRR arena when they don’t even have a leg to stand on will have them continually falling on their faces!

Great response to this article, which I read on another blog. There should be no prerequisite, other than having an open mind, as it pertains to IR. everything else can be learned with time. Having such silly requirements (must have past experience dating someone from the particular ethnicity of interest, is vey superficial and does
NOTHING to determine a relationship’s success. Just as dating someone from the same ethnicity doesn’t automatically determine a relationship’a success. The most important thing to consider is the quality and character of the individual, which contributes more to a relationship’s success.

@Bren82 Yes, this. Thank you. So many black women get caught up in all the hoops they have to or are supposed to jump through that they miss one very important qualifier: “Where is your heart in all of this?” Some black women don’t want to date out, and I’d rather they didn’t if it’s not something they actually want.

I think that there are black women who are open to the idea but are afraid of being ostracized. And they should be allowed to learn more on the subject and have discussions without being “concern trolled” into submission.

Blackberry

Great response to the original article.

The original article was just a little convulted. Was this person giving general rules or was this person addressing the problems specific to her friend starting to swirl. And title of original article was a bit ridiculous too.

Umm….but the part about white boyfriends being a target brand- hilariously. But some women of color, not all, but some think that WM will be the solution to their problems and so they fail to vet them properly. Yeah the OOW rate in the black community is a problem, but that doesn’t mean you’ll never encounter a white/hispanic/Asian guy who will love you and leave without child support.

What I like aout BBW, besides the fabulous contributors and commenters, is that people always encourage to take in information, but to VET and VET some more, because swirl or not it’s about knowing yourself and finding the person you fit best with. Sadly clutch wasn’t clear on that point.

@Blackberry “. But some women of color, not all, but some think that WM will be the solution to their problems and so they fail to vet them properly.”

That is definitely a genuine problem, and I wished it had been more ably addressed, because there are some black women who honestly believe that the only DBR men out there are black, and so when they date interracially they shouldn’t expect to encounter damaged men. Not true by a long shot.

Elfe

@Toni_M @Blackberry
Yes, any kind of extremism & blind trust based on coloring or ‘race’ is silly & can be dangerous.

Islandgirl

I am starting take a hardline stance on issues such as this one. It is one thing to vet potential partners but another to invent and/or look for difficulties where none exists. I just wish that people could just be up front with their preferences without resorting to lame excuses and/or harangue others for not conforming their own world view. At the point where I’m simply tired hearing the same old excuses of WM wouldn’t understand you, hair etc. In my experience for a man a pretty woman is a pretty woman and when it boils down to it an asshole is an asshole regardless of race.

MixedUpInVegas

To my sisters in the gender who have had some experience with men, I’d like to state something that most of us already know: men of all varieties are clueless about our gender, period. I have never had a man remark on anything about my hair or my appearance other than to appreciate it. They don’t get our beauty routines, our underwear, our shoes or much else. The wisest men I’ve known have always said about women “let the mystery be.” When preparing for the day or to go out, the wisest men wait patiently while women do whatever it is we do, make a compliment about the result when we announce that we are ready and help us with our coat. Most men know that women wear mysterious layers of lacy stuff under our clothing, but generally show little interest in it beyond appreciating the femininity of it all when worn.

Maybe the men who have been husbands or lovers in my life were the strong silent types, but I’ve never had a man understand or care to understand what we do or how we do it in order to look pleasing. They simply beam and remark on their pleasure at the result.

Elfe

@MixedUpInVegas Well-stated! This has been my experience too!

dasdbobb

@MixedUpInVegas
Co-sign.
You’re right, but what you gals have to go through, I donno, I thin k I’d rather donate a testicle to science. Without anesthetic

@MixedUpInVegas I love your post, especially about the wisest men saying “let the mystery be.” This hair thing cracks me up. My dad’s black, lives in a house full of black women (my mom, me and my sisters) and our hair is a complete mystery to him. Sometimes he’ll get curious and be like “What are you doing in there?” But most of the time he just sits and waits… As long as it looks good a man won’t care, white, black, Asian, Hispanic or anything in between.

Danew1

I have white female friends because, like with any non-familial relationship, we have things in common. I don’t have white friends as some sort of litmus test as to weather or not I’m capable of dating a white guy. Having black female friends didn’t help me understand the psyche of the black male, so I’m certain that having white female friends won’t help me understand white men. In fact my white girlfriends are just as confused by white men as black women are about black men. I will say that having friends outside of your own race does help in understanding cultural differences that may occur if you choose to swirl.

I have locks. I’ve had them for 15 years. When I first started growing them they weren’t as common as they are now and I would get questions equally from blacks and whites and males and females. The guy I’m currently dating is white, and the only thing he’s ever said about my hair is that it’s sexy.

He also finds my skin color sexy, that doesn’t mean he has a fetish, it means that’s something that is attractive to him. He’s dating me for my other redeeming qualities and my dark brown skin tone is just the cherry on top. Black men are sometimes more attracted to black women with of certain skin complexion than other shades, but that’s not considered a fetish. Is it a fetish if you’re attracted to someone that’s smart, or tall, has a certain hair color? No, it just mean you like those things.

She’s also kind of created a catch 22 by saying don’t date a white guy that hasn’t dated a black woman before, but a white guy that dates black women has fetish so don’t date him.

dasdbobb

@Danew1
The guy you’re dating is quite correct. I took a good look at your profile pic, and you are sexy. But take it from someone who was married twenty-one years to a bueatiful AA woman, It’ your other qialites as well that attracted him to you. In reading your post, I see that you are educated, intelligent, spells better than me, LOL have both feet planted firmly on the ground and have a pretty good idea where you’re going in life. Those my dear are the qualities men (WM too) look for. We are not “just out to satisfy the jungle fever syndrome”. When we meet someone who fulfills our wants and needs, loves us back as much as we love them, we’re not afraid to put the ring on the finger.

Tiffany

“Black men are sometimes more attracted to black women with of certain skin complexion than other shades, but that’s not considered a fetish.”

Now wait a minute. That’s exactly why many black women are fed up with black men. Colorism is racism. I can’t believe some women on these forums are so twisted as to turn around and defened black men’s colorism just becauese you’re leaving them alone. Black men are still wrong with their colorism. A racist black man is no less racist than a racist white man. And for you to compare gendered racism (shadism) to attraction to someone that’s tall smart, or a certain hair color is incredibly ignorant. Those are the same false equations color-struck black men use.

foreverloyal

“As long some try to see bw as victims of bm only, bw will never gain the power to extract themselves from toxic situations & ppl”
IMHO, that is exactly the point. It’s the newer, more suble attack/okey-doke/sabotage Khadija and Evia warned about.

Veron

I want to eat this article, it’s so delicious.

Skayi

Clutch, why am i not suprised?

SunKissedSkin

Just like a breath of fresh air <3

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Best Interracial Dating Resources For Black Women

What are some of the best sites out there for black women open to interracial dating? Despite the negativity about black women dating out or being “unwanted,” there are men of all races who think we are divine. Let’s focus on where we are wanted! Here are a few we've found from the BB&W archives.