I have personally contributed 300 entries to new Dictionary project. Even if only 10 of those words make it through, and the Punjabee people make use of one, I am proud to help my language.
What do you think of our efforts to produce a new kosh for a new generation, combining tradtional Punjabi with Modern International need? Why do the West Punjabees show no interest in placing these words in Shahmukhi?
Dear Rupe,
A very good cause. I am apprehensive if you shall ever benefit from bureaucratic universities of Punjab. Let me give you the example of dictionary. I do not consider the dictionary of KK Goswami worth even a penny. I shall pick only two dictionaries: One is from the press of Punjabi University Patiala. See publication bureau catalogues at www.universitypunjabi.org
The other one was published by Punjab State University Text Book Board. I personally consider it to be better than Punjabi University one. The text book board staff was always in conflict with academics of universities of Punjab. The researchers at text book board were hard working and more research oriented than academics of universities. This board was set up to help universities in preparing text books in Punjabi. But academics were so afraid that over the years they have made this board redundant with the help of bureaucratic and political nexus. A revised edition of text book board dictionary never saw the day light. A sad event indeed.
During the past six months, I sent e-mails followed by telephone calls to all the prominent editors of Punjab to put pressure on Punjabi University to make dictionaries available online. So far no success. There is an agenda.
And what of fiery discussion about all this?

Having myself considering a semi input person to this discussion forum for few years. lately I've seen a lot of regular folks are stepping back from what they have to say. Duniya de Jhanjat I can understand but EISI V KI GALL HAI KE KOI TOHADE DIL VICH KOI VAL-VALE HI NAHI UTHDEY
so com'on people SPEAK SPEAK SPEAK. like a saying in punjabi
JAD TAK ROVO NA MAA VI DUDH NAHI DINDI. so stir up something
SOCHAAN DE TAAKRE HI KOI SUJH DI CHINAG CHADANGE JIS TON ILM TE AQAL DA BHAMBAD UTHEYGAA. right now is the need is for this fire to be kept ALIVE.

One of the difficulties I have is so called official Gurumukhi Books have allowed Hindi Sanskrit words to creep in. I hope to colloboarte with the more purer Punajbi books via APNA members in Pakistan. So I shall occasionally place suspect words on here for you to review and get back to me on.
Rupe.

We are ardously working away at Punjabilit.com. So far we have consulted and produced 500 new Punjabi words , mostly nouns for things new to the Punjabee experience thru diapora. Final idea is to be slightly distinct from Hindi and Urdu in these areas.-Rupe

http://www.punjabikosh.com/pu2en_interface/Results/results_page.asp
Type in most international animal names or countries et cetra and a modern Punjabi Noun will be returned in Gurumukhi. Now Saeed do the same in Shahmukhi!!

Dr. Shahid Jee, I put your views in the apna discussion forum let me explain it myself here that there is no any voice in favour of Gurmukhi script here as you mentioned in your views, "There is a very good reason why the Muslim Punjabis have adopted the script that they have. The nature of social forces in Pakistan is such that any suggestion of even remotely linking the written Punjabi language in Pakistan with Gurmukhi will hurt the larger cause of Punjabi in Pakistan. No one wants that to happen." No one talks here about the use of Gurmukhi script. Though some books are being written in both the scripts for the marketing purpose and to tell East Punjab's friends that here we stand. They are not successful here in Pakistan as when people see any Punjabi book in Shahmukhi as well as Gurmukhi they hesitate to buy that book. I am sorry to metion here my personal experience. One day I was travelling in the Rail Car from Pindi to Lahore. I was reading the Gurmukhi magazine Watan (edited by Sadhu Singh, Canada). I just noticed that people around me are watching me with very different eyes. I could feel the bitterness of their (narrow) minds and just closed the magazine and started to watch outside the window. Then one man raised a question, " Are you from India?" I said, "No". Then he asked me, "You have Hindi magazine." I said, "It is not a Hindi but Gurmukhi magazine". (People here are familier with the characters or the shape of Hindi script because they watch Indian movies or Indian TV Channels which show Hindi script). Then there was a very stupid irritating question" "Why you are reading such magazine?" They were doubing my faith and nationality. I politely responded them that there was no any harm to read such magazine. Quran says, "All the languages and words (of course scripts) are the God's signs." Then I had little light gup shup on Sufis' poetry with them as "Masjid Dhaa de Mandar dhaa de .....but I felt it is all in vain. The poison of hatredness created by media, vocalists and education system of the states is so deep inside that it will take time to understand the realities, may be not in the present decades due to cetain reasons.

Today's Dawn, Karachi published the views of Dr. Muhammed A. Shahid on Punjabi not Shahmukhi.

ARTICLE: Punjabi not Shahmukhi

By Dr Muhammed A. Shahid

Punjabi is a language that has been in existence since pre- Sanskrit and pre-Vedic times. Punjabi is, however, a relatively recent name for this ancient language. Late Mohammed Asif Khan did extensive research on the word Punjab, and concluded that the first written evidence of the use of the word Punjab is to be found in the 12th century. He quotes some verses in Persian from Shah Ne'mat Allah Wali (1152AD) in support of his claim:

Punjab shehr Lahore hamm

deraah jaat choon Kashmeer

mulk Mansoor geerand ghaibana

He also refers to a portion of a letter in Persian from Shahab-ad-Din Ghauri (1193AD) to the Rajas in Hindustan:

Ba shumaa sulah kunem keh

sarhind, Punjab wa Multan ba

maa shud wa baqi mamaalik

Hindustaan ba shumaa

Muslims now have a distinctly different and well-established script for writing Punjabi and it is very old. It is the same script in which Baba Farid left his writings for us (Baba Saheb reportedly died in about 1265, and was a contemporary of Maulana Rumi, d.1273). The Persian-based Punjabi script/Imla' has a long history and has been used for centuries for writing Punjabi. A brief account of the history of this script can be found at http://www.nawaiwaqt.com.pk/daily/may-2003/15/index.htm

This is a historical fact that the official language during the Raj of Ranjeet Singh was Persian. Shahmukhi is an illogical misnomer for the written script, which is claimed to be the only one for Punjabi.

There is a very good reason why the Muslim Punjabis have adopted the script that they have. The nature of social forces in Pakistan is such that any suggestion of even remotely linking the written Punjabi language in Pakistan with Gurmukhi will hurt the larger cause of Punjabi in Pakistan. No one wants that to happen.

Users of a language are at many different levels. Expert linguists have to learn many different languages and scripts to do their job effectively. Late Mohammad Asif Khan, a Punjabi scholar, and Annemarie Schimmel, a German scholar, are two such excellent examples. But the majority of ordinary users of any language, and Punjabi is no exception, have much simpler needs and those needs are driven by social, cultural, religious and other regional factors specific to their environment.

I feel that in the second 'baNd' of the geet, the world "hoor" may be "hook OR kook". The word 'hook Or kook' with 'mashook' appears to be the most appropriate in establishing the lyrical melody of the 'baNd'.

You are absolutely right Baljit Pa'a. Thanks for posting this bit of information. I did come across other variants of the same song. If I retrieve them from my somewhat chaotically maintained records, I would feel privileged to share them with the larger readership of APNA.
Cheers
Sukhbir

Sukhbir Jee,
The version of "UchchRa burj Lahore da" that you quoted in your post, that I heard is in form of a boli and incorporates eliments of the Uchiyan Lamiyan Tahlian folk song. It goes like this:

Tah-e-diloN muafiaaN! Par list Tanvir hurraaN di je ghalat hai te pher ohnu sodhanN di vee loR hai. First of all, I am deeply suspicious of all such inventories for invariably such lists selectively include and exclude names. The parameters of any such inclusion/exclusion are probably not objectifiably verifiable. But somewhere the buck has to stop and take a hard look. Otherwise the names of even the finest lyricist such as Shah Hussain would have disappeared from the annals of history. So, how does one valorise authors like Takht Singh, Prabhjot Kaur, Harbhajan Hundal, Harbhajan Halwarvi, Sheila Gujral? This was and still remains for me a mammoth and astounding enigma. There is nothing one can do to not respond with a sense of shock and pain when such lists are so blithely foisted to push mediocre/sub-mediocre writings/ writers as historically significant contributions/contributors to Punjabi literature.

But even more disturbingly, how does one explain the omission of Prof Puran Singh, Gurbax Singh Preet LaRi, Bawa Balwant, Harbhajan Singh, Gurdial Singh, Prem Prakash, Sant Ram Udasi Harnam, Tarsem Nilgiri, Avtar Jandialvi, Ajmer Rode, Pash, Lal Singh Dil, Amarjit Chandan...? The omission of these names will tantamount to a literary-historiographic falsification. You would notice that I have deliberately not included the avowedly Sikh poets such as Bhai Vir Singh, Jaswant Singh Neki etc even though their contribution is far more significant than that of some of the name included in the list released by Tanvir ji.

One shouldn't let it pass without subjecting it to the strickest of scrutiny. One is justifiably apprehensive in these extraordinary times of overhauling history books - how else does one explain Prem Chand being replaced from the course curriculum by the Indian NDA Government with the short stories of a non-entity like one Ms Mridula Garg.I may be wrong but such lists, even if unwittingly, are doing a lot more disservice to people who may want a passing acquaintance with their own literary traditions.

If Shafqat Tanvir Mirza’s list of Punjabi Poets left out some names, I would strongly assume that it was not intentional, as I know him. Secondly, he is least of a person to be labeled as a communalist. To me, these are just trivial issues when analyzed in the overall context of the article. Moreover, according to my understanding, the ethics of literary criticism demand that a critic must point out both ‘positive’ and ‘negative’ aspects of a piece of literature, rather just indulging in to tear it apart on a subjectively assumed disqualifications. I personally believe that there was no need to write so severe criticism to demean Shafqat Sahib.

I do not know what the possible politics behind such a ludicrous inventory of the so-called "sikh writers" could have been, I am not a little amazed at how uncannily this inventory reads like another such "scroll of honour" from an article written by another literary luminary carried out in the Dawn. It is indeed sad to note how little effort people are willing to make to actually substantiate their scholarship. I make bold to say here that this inventory is outrageously funny.

First, I would like to take up minor inaccuracies not that it matters much. Devinder Satyarthi, Balwant Gargi, Shiv Batalvi and Sheila Gujral are not Sikh but Hindu writers. But, of course, this will be a highly objectionable classification - dividing poets in terms of their communal identities unless their ouevre is specifically infused by a religious ideology and is crying to be identified as such. I would have the greatest of difficulty in accepting Shah Hussain, Bulle Shah, Faiz Ahmed Faiz, Najm Hussain Sayyed as Muslim poets and likewise I would be very uncomfortable in slotting Mohan Singh (incidentally, he was not a Dr unless of course the author is confusing this Mohan Singh with Dr Mohan Singh Diwana), Amrita Pritam, Satyarthi, Gargi or Batalvi along communal identities.

And now very briefly a comment about the lesser unfortunate fact of the complilation of this scroll of honour: how on earth someone could identify the so-called Sikh poets as a phenomenon beginning only from the early 40s is something that defies all credible logic. How someone in his/her critically well-honed mind could place both Amrita Pritam and Sheila Gujral in a list of literary giants remains an impregnable enigma. Prabhjot Kaur likewise would have the greatest of difficulties in finding acceptance as a writer of even modest consequence. And how does Mr Mirza eke out the critical space to so movingly accomodate both Mr Takht Singh and Harbhajan Hundal? And how does he ignore a literary giant like Harbhajan Singh? This list is exasperatingly misleading. There is no space in it for Puran Singh (arguably the greatest poet of the 20th century Punjab), no space for Bawa Balwant, no foothold for contemporary poets like Misha and Jagtar, no mention of Harnam, Pash, Amarjit Chandan, Lal Singh Dil, Waryam Sandhu and Surjit Pattar. But it showcases, of all people, a Sheila Gujral - an absolutely an inconsequential figure. And, yes, what about the so-called "Sikh poets" from the 15th century onward?
Sukhbir

Punjabi poets and writers' efforts in this period were directed towards removing the sense of alienation the people felt towards the language.

For a very long time local languages of the subcontinent and their literature remained totally neglected in relation to the official languages like Arabic, Sanskrit, Persian, etc. We hardly find any reference to local poets and writers in these languages. For instance, Shah Husain, a 16th century Russali poet who was the pioneer of the kafi genre has not been mentioned in any of the Persian accounts of his period. This great malamati saint of Lahore was mentioned casually by Maulvi Abdul Qadir Badayuni in his rare book Nijatul Rasheed not as a poet or sufi or a learned man but as a friend of a Mughal prince.

Given this approach, education was imparted in the mother tongue but to be called a literate one had to read and write Persian or Urdu. Proficiency in Punjabi was no qualification for a job. Not surprisingly this was a very barren period for Punjabi literature.

Meanwhile, the three religious communities living in Punjab found themselves searching for their linguistic identity. The Sikhs stood for Punjabi which was not adopted as the official language even by Maharaja Ranjeet Singh and his successors. The Hindus identified themselves with Hindi while the Muslims enthusiastically turned to Urdu which had deep links with Punjabi, but had been ignored by the generation of those times. Punjabi, however, still served the cause of the sufis.

As the Sikhs adopted Punjabi as the language of their religion theirs was the major role in its enrichment. The only difference was that all their work was in the Gurmukhi script which was not accepted by the Punjabi Muslims. The Sikh writers like Dr Mohan Singh, Amrita Preetam, Davinder Sathiarthi, Darshan Singh Awara, Takht Singh, Kartar Singh Duggal, Balwant Gargi, Prabhjot Kaur, Ajeet Kaur, Shiv Kumar Batalvi, Daleep Tiwana, Kulwant Singh Virk, Sheila Gujral, Harbhajan Singh Hundal and many others made brilliant contributions to Punjabi.

In the beginning of the twentieth century Punjabi poetry lost its three major poets Khwaja Farid, Mian Muhammad Bukhsh and a little later Maulvi Ghulam Rasul. They belonged to three different regions where different dialects were spoken. Mian Muhammad Bukhsh was from Mirpur (Azad Kashmir) confluence of Pahari, Potohari and Lehnda, Ghulam Farid was from Seraiki-Lehnda belt and Maulvi Ghulam Rasul was from Mahja-Malwa belt. But all of them wrote in Lehnda-oriented language which had been the medium of all the classical poets from Baba Farid to Najm Husain Syed.

Under the changed political conditions of the twentieth century, the Muslim Punjab now produced Allama Iqbal, Maulana Zafar Ali Khan and Khushi Muhammad Nazir. It would be wrong to believe that all Punjabi Muslim writers had abandoned the language and the field had been surrendered to the Sikhs.

In the first stage people like Maula Bukhsh Kushta, Saeen Ahmad Ali and Sanian Peshawri made substantive contributions to Punjabi literature. Some important political events invited their attention notably the Khilafat Movement, the Jallianwala tragedy, the struggle for independence, the demand for a separate Muslim state and the communal riots of 1947.

The Punjabi Muslim writers who had been writing in languages other than Punjabi became conscious of the literary assets of their mother tongue. This realization led teachers and scholars like Prof Fazl-i-Haq, Sir Shahabuddin, Barrister Abdul Aziz, Prof Zia Muhammad Zia and Maulvi Muhammad Shafi to seriously ponder the relevance of Punjabi literature. This trend began in the twenties and even Allama Iqbal, while appreciating the mystic and nationalistic contents of Punjabi poetry, said he regretted that because of his training in other languages he could not write in Punjabi. He exhorted Punjabis to write in the language of their people. He was all praise for the poetry of Khwaja Ghulam Farid.

During the independence struggle Punjabi poets made notable contributions but most of these could not be preserved. Among them were Ustad Ishq Lehr, Muhammad Din Joneka, Zaheer Niazbeg, Abdul Kareem Mujahid and Daim Iqbal Daim. Until then no serious attention was paid to prose by the Muslims, while the Sikhs had brought out many newspapers and magazines in Punjabi, which had become their political language as well. Apart from literature, they were producing hundreds of books on religious, political and historical themes.

The language was taught in government schools and the script was Gurmukhi which separated the two Punjabi communities. The language was made the medium of instruction at the primary level in Patiala state. The other Sikh states had also patronized the language. The prose written in the central Punjab was mainly in Mahji dialect in contrast to the richest tradition of poetry in Lehnda dialect. In the thirties and the forties the All-India Radio, Lahore Station and the film industry also came to the help of Punjabi writers, particularly playwrights.

The major factor which helped revive the interest in Punjabi was the partition of the subcontinent in 1947 which shook the roots of the Punjabis. Amrita Preetam's poem "Aj aakhan Waris Shah mon" played a pivotal role in stirring the emotions of the people. Two prominent poets, namely Ahmad Rahi and Munir Niazi, came to dominate the scene. Both of them belonged to East Punjab and suffered the trauma of being uprooted from their home. They, along with Sharif Kunjahi, are undoubtedly considered the pioneer of modern Punjabi poetry.

The progressive writers from Punjab made a big impact in reviving interest in Punjabi when they realized that they owed something to their land and its people. Moreover writing in Punjabi had not been favoured by the Establishment. Many intellectuals had kept themselves away from their mother tongue. But once the language and literature were introduced in the university and colleges, they immediately responded and dominated the newly-opened Punjabi department in educational institutions.

The main thrust of twentieth century Punjabi literature is towards a quest for political and cultural identity. It is rich in themes such as the tradition of resistance by the Punjabis against foreign invaders and rulers, feudal domination, post-colonial influences and western hegemony. The heroes like Dullah Bhatti, Ahmad Khan Kharal, Mehran Lak and Bhagat Singh were idolized by a prominent group headed by Najm Husain who has written plays on them. Major Ishaq Muhammad of the Rawalpindi Conspiracy Case also wrote plays on the Musallis of Harappa and Dullah Bhatti.

From the older generation Dr Faqir Muhammad, Chaudhry Afzal and his father, Maula Bakhsh Kushta, Joshua Fazluddin and Akbar Lahori played a dynamic role in the promotion of Punjabi language.

All of them did their best to eliminate the general feeling of alienation with the language, which was the biggest problem of that period. Najm Husain Syed and his followers interwove national and literary themes which slowly changed the attitude of the Punjabi readers towards their mother tongue and their motherland. Faiz Ahmad Faiz, who made a name for himself for his poetry and prose in Urdu and English, turned to Punjabi when he said: Hovey fajr tey aakhiay Bismilla aj doltan saadey ghar aayanain.(Let there be dawn and we say in the name of God our wealth has come back to us).

I am Lahore based vocalist of Punjabi language, I usually sing the Kaffies of Baba Bhullay Shah, Sultan Bhaoo, Mahdo Lal Hussain and Wasif Ali Wasif, Shavi Kmur
I appreciated your stregulle for save the Punjbi culture, before looking your this site I was worried about this, but not I M satisfied, I will again contact you

Our great Poet Waris Shah has reached in Romania finally. The book "Great Sufi Wisdom - Waris Shah" has been also translated in the Romanian Language. The job is done by Miss Alexandra, one of my great friends living around the globe. A few months back I sent her my two books "Great Sufi Wisdom - Waris Shah and Great Sufi Wisdom - Mian Mohammad Bakhsh" to her in Romania. After reading Waris Shah's great thoughts she wished herself to translate this work. Then there was a complete silence from her. Today, when I opened my e box, I saw a file 264 kb from her. The note was written on the top as "The job is finally done". Just have a taste of romanian translation of Waris Shah. As I am very happy so I hope you will also be very happy. Soon the fifth edition of Waris Shah's wisdom will be published with Romanian translation. Here is Alex's work.

Dear Friends
Songs of new hindi film Pinjar are available at http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/l/XX01000F3G
Though it is a hindi film but these songs are highly inspired by punjabi culture. Lyrics are by Guljar, whom I rate very high among the poets, writers, film producer of our times. Music is by Uttam Singh and singers include many of top class names. The music of the film reveals huge experimentation with expression of traditional values using various forms of music.
Lyrics, music, presentation are too rich as well as touching and deserve attention. Cheers

Sorry, correction
London, UK
Comments: Dear Shahid Ji, mafee a'te not ate!
Dear Abdul Ji, Thank you for month list!
Is it okay to add my words to your list?
Dear Kaurasach, I think Shamukhi is beautiful letters, but I have yet to get my head around whay and how letters change as you write them. The grammer rules seem harder than gurumkhi or roman.
Rupe
PS , a guy I have come across may be willing to add these words , after vetting with academiia to his internet punjabi kosh ( Gurumukhi). What about the shahmukhi guys, tuhaada kee kee'hal hun?

Dear Shahis Ji, mafee a'te not ate!
Dear Abdul Ji, Thank you for month list! Is it okay to add my words to your list?Dear Kaurasach, I think Shamukhi is beautiful letters, but I have yet to get my head around whay and how letters change as you write them. The grammer rules seem harder than gurumkhi or roman.
RupePS , a gut I have come across may be willing to add these words , after vetting with academiia to his internet punjabi kosh ( Gurumukhi). What about the shahmukhi guys, tuhaada kee kee'hal hun?

Dear Friends
Hasan te MuskuraN laye shukriya. It is the presentation of words and tone behind those words, which make Punjabi jokes and humor so earthly and lively. Punjabi humor, being close to ground (real life), is different from others. We need not build a fiction to make people laugh. We may just use gestures, orientation of words, or tone to make things light. On top of it, as Zaki ji has pointed out that in Punjabi every sentence may have another hidden meanings. Most remarkably, everybody generates and enjoys humor thus created. And it can happen in any life situation. That’s a characteristic of a PUNJABI.
People who have seen MARASI(s) in good olden days would agree with me that generating humor out of common man, casual personalities and usual life situations has been so spontaneous. May long live this spirit of Punjabi humor.

I appreciate the person's time who do the transliteration from 'shahmukhi' to Gurmukhi. I have tried a lot to read the shahmukhi script. but after months of efforts can only read a few basic words.
i request that the articles, books etc available in shahmukhi on this site be also availale to Gurmukhi so many more can enjoy. THANKS IN ADVANCE

Apneo,
Since gal baat chal rahe hai eng-punjabi di and I think Ajay mentioned something about punjabi for Computers, I will like to add that Google has that feature!!! If you go to www.Google.com, click on Language tools, you can use Punjabi interface for your explorer and its pretty neat too..uses real good punjabi! e.g. Advanced Search is Ucch Koti di Talaash and Images is Tasveeran..;-)

Apneo,
Since gal baat chal rahe hai eng-punjabi di and I think Ajay mentioned something about punjabi for Computers, I will like to add that Google has that feature!!! If you go to www.Google.com, click on Language tools, you can use Punjabi interface for your explorer and its pretty neat too..uses real good punjabi! e.g. Advanced Search is Ucch Koti di Talaash and Images is Tasveeran..;-)

Slam / Sat Sri Akal,Rupe ji You add new words or use this list in any other way that is useful to use. These words are Punjabi and if you happen to know Urdu/Hindi then you will notice that they are different from their Hindi/Urdu equivalents. These are pure Punjabi words.
I came across Punjabi calendar on the internet. I didn't know half of it. It might help any other person like me. The calendar is as follows:
1- Magh January 13
2- Phagan February 12
3- Chet March 14
4- Vaisakh April 14
5- Jeth May 15
6- Harh June 15
7- Sawan July 16
8- Bhadon August 16
9- Asu September 15
10- Katik October 15
11- Maghar November 14
12- Poh December 14

It is regarding the last post under Rupe's Name. who is actualy Khalsa Collage(north campus delhi)alumni. because I am the proud grad from the same. it feels so good about reading about MERI ROOH MERI JIND MERI JAAN offcourse my collage. there are so many yaadaan tagged along with it. I was political Science major. but hang out always with punjabi major class fellows. it was something about that class or just my plain love to just read or hear punjabi that drives me to that class. Sitting in that class drives me to go to punjabi university patiala to do my MA in punjabi. ANYWAY just wanted to write something about my dearly beloved collage.

At last someone has dedcied to look into new words!
Dear Rup Dhillon Ji,
From two weeks after I got ur mail. Since than Iam talking to many
persons regarding ur work, we opt for New Punjabi Kosh, Without blindly
following the english.
As Gurumukhi is rich in every field ; what a language should be.
I also had a talk with many senior Profs. of Delhi University & khalsa
college, Delhi(as iam a Alumnus Of Khalsa College, North Campus, Delhi).
As u said any body wants to be involved actively, I accept it.
I as I studied Punjabi (Gurumikhi) from the standard 1St (school) Till
Graduation also.
The words you written in ur mail representing punjabi version, also
sounds englishness or shadowing english these are the views of profs to
whom I had talked recently.
Like you mentioned
Orca-Vehl for Killer whale
Than also u used Vehl word, It Could be nice if u use it like it,
Orca Macchi. It sounds Punjabi.
Later one sounds half punjabi half english version.
I will be happy to serve our mother tounge.
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji ki Fateh!!
Jagjot Singh Khalsa
Chief Sewadar
World Khalsa International
www.worldkhalsa.com
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
Daer Jagjot jee, bahut shukereeaa,
I think it is bahut vadieeaa that you have put in so much time and effort in doing this. I also believe that as you are a high level Punjabi person, if you have the power, those words of my research that your investigations approve, you should try and get into a dictionary.
Other idea is that I send you animal name research, you decide which one to use, and get a paper or a Kosh published that only does world animal names. Of course I expect my self to be part author, otherwise all else goes to you only. Tuhanoo Annam mil oo ga.
In regards to the word for whale specically:
A whale is not a fish, it is a mammel, like humans and lion etc it has lungs. Fish don't.
Also in UK the Panjabi Language Development board in Birmingham have adopted it and so it is being taught in Gurumukhi in UK ( contact Surjit Singh Kalra: v.kalra@man.ac.uk).
Also a language develops by common use, and therefor in the west, Punjabees adapt foreign words when their own language dictionaries do not provide one.
Shaad sanno sirf kanna chahidaa Orca?
Anyway I would love your help. I have an advanced level in English, and therefore am at your Punjabi equivalent level. SO lets help each other and Punjabi language thru your contacts.
I will send you more words. Please feed back the ones that are chosen by the Prof for the Kosh. It is not enough to call a fox a lumbaar anymore, the world has many types of foxes, and I want to list each specifically. As with all animals,
And I hope the non English ones ( Ie Spanish Arguement ) are accepted. Please reply back with full report on all the words.
Rab Rakka
Rupe

Safir Rammah Ji, I want to say a big thank you for adding Shahmukhi lessons to the APNA homepage. I will spread the word about the Shahmukhi lessons which are the first i have come across on the internet.

So here goes in Punjabi SHUKRIYA!!!

Akhilesh

p.s. If there are any plans to publish Shahmukhi text books i would be glad to make some donations. (I am a student so as much as i can give i will).

This is of course if there is a demand for Shahmukhi text books, otherwise it is not worth printing them yet.

Rupinder, DAWN is a Karachi based newspaper. I seriously doubt they would be interested in Punjabi language or Shahmukhi script. Read some of the letters sent to them which they print of their website, half of them of anti-Punjabi stuff calling for the braking of Pakistan's Punjab province into 3 parts, or even more. They also send letters crying about "Punjabi hegemony" and "Seriaki language", which doesnt even exist. I have Punjabi in-laws who were Multani speaking and there is no difference between them and us (according to my father). He can understand everything they say and vice-versa.

People of Sindh are frustrated that they come from a desert waste-land and that no one in the world gives a damn about them or their cooked-up stories about being a "10,000" year old civilization (Complete lie). They sound exactly like the right-wing Hindus of India who scream and shout day-in-day-out about being the people who invented science, civilization, astronomy, mathmatics etc etc All total BS! Bunch of liars and frauds...

Because no one in the World buys their mumbo-jumbo and even laugh at these people, they (frustrated Sindhis from Pakistan and frustrated Indian Hindus from Bharat) try and take out their inferiority complex on the Punjabis. We are obviously an easy target for these people to blame everything on (Pakistan because Punjabis are the majority, India because Punjabis are a highly successful minority.)

Anyway, i believe the only newspaper published in Pakistan which is in Punjabi is http://www.bhulekha.com/

Annexation- A novel about Punjabees in Ranjeet Singh's time, it shows how the British conquered Punjab, and how the Sikhs fought from within, sowing the seeds that 100 years later lead to circumstances that meant partition and hatred. An extract from a novel about Sikhs during Maharajah Ranjit Singh;s time
(Date Added: 15-Aug-2003, Hits: 25)
http://www.sikhlionz.com/sikhsection1.htm
I have writtern In english, but need someone to write in Panjabi.

-----Original Message-----
From: janmeja [mailto:janmeja@email.com]
Sent: 01 September 2003 15:43
To: rotary3070
Subject: NEW LEAF IN PUNJABI LANGUAGE HISTORY ADDED
NEW LEAF IN PUNJABI LANGUAGE HISTORY ADDED
A new punjabi writing exercise book "RANGLI LIKHAI" by Janmeja Singh Johl was relased here today. this a new concept coloring book for small childern to punjabi letter writing. Ura to Rrarra. partially sponserd by a group of educators from california, this book is intended to be free, but a donation wll be accepted besides the mailing cost from ludhiana , payable by any means in advance. the aproxx courier charges for minimum 2 books are Rs. 600/- if required outside india. for lage quantities please call at phone number given below.

P'aa Zaki ji ate b'henN Suman ji
The original poem mentioned by you indeed 'pre-dates' any of Brechtian lyrics. No doubt about that! The lyric you have mentioned is from the time of the Sikh empire (19th century) and runs somewhat like this

The play, Caucasian Chalk Circle was adapted into Punjabi by Amarjit Chandan and Amitoj in mid-seventies and was staged in Chandigarh and New Delhi during emegency before being banned by Giani Zail Singh. The play was directed by MK Raina and the music was rendered by the inimitable Kamal Tiwari. The play was briefly revived by MK Raina post-anti-Sikh-riots and was readapted by Madan Gopal Singh and also musically rendered by him along with three new compositions in additions to the earlier ones. Two of his lyrical adaptations that I only half-remember today are:

Shahid Ji, I see your point. I guess there is perhaps no need for an official name. People who are comfortable with "Shahmukhi" or "Panjabi" can call the Persian based script either one.

I have heard Urdu script refered to as "Urdu", "Nastaliq" and "Perso-Arabic", the name is not so important.

Rupinder Ji, Try here http://www.pu.edu.pk/

I once emailed someone at the University of Punjab out of curiosity, i got this email in reply:

From: puarshad@wol.net.pk

To:HiTMaN9497@aol.com

Sent from the Internet (Details)

Sir,

Your e-mail dated 21-04-2003 on the above subject, refers.

You are hereby informed that M.A. Punjabi class are held at this University levels. For which proper admission required by the candidate to attend classes regularly. Basic qualification for admission to M.A. class is Graduation with the subject of Punjabi.

It is clear to me that we are all in agreement then. I only wish that someonein Lahoe University or Patiala visits sites like this and tells us their viewpoint or considers our ideas. I know no one, but if anyone out there does, please point them to the recent arguements

I wrote the poem as a test of my Punjabi ability. I also consider myself unpaar in Punjabi, but as I am self taught, and as my website demonstates can write simple stuff to teach others like me. But I now want to write stories in Punjabi I started off writing in English, and have had soem poems published and am presently half way through a novel in English.

I would like to do the same in Punjabi. So please let me honestly know the standard of my poem Piaar. I am british born, and probably amongst the first generation that will be influenced by English styles of imagery, which will be different from tradtional Punjabi literature, and possibly an exciting style to introduce to it. I am reading a book called Shareek, in Punjabi, and so far have not found any of the techniques I woould use in English. However being British born, my writings will be about the experinces of Punjabees born in a culture outside of India or Pakistan, and not writtern by an NRI or NRP, and therefore may be of interest to Punjabi readers. But to begin this journey I must now be confident in Punjabi writing. AT my level I find Bullah Shah and Waris too sophiticated But perhaps I can start by writing simple stuff
Anyway, Can some one give me critical feedback about Piaar? It is influenced by my English learning, and I can see it is very different from Sukhi's entry

Sat Sri Akal / Aslamu Alikum,
The argument is valid and i think it does carry a weight. Rupe ji in my opinion it is not possible to include any words on any topic without the help of universities and schools. These institutions are the keys which can spread words in the society and that is the only reason I always emphasize the point that our authorities should start teaching Punjabi.

Let me take a very simple example that when kids go to school they get the idea from their teachers and other fellow students that if they want to progress then they have to master English or Urdu (in Pakistan's case). They drift away from their mother tongue Punjabi gradually. The point comes when they stop speaking it for good except talking to their parents. The languages obviously evolve but when people speak them and if no body speaks them even in their home territories then the point comes when they start to die down.

There is no point fighting on the scripts. Both scripts Shahmukhi and Gurumukhi are good but the point which is important is education in the language. I consider myself illiterate in Punjabi because i automatically start speaking English or Urdu when any discussion tilts towards modern technology, computers, or other sophisticated topics.
People of Punjab and in particular the people of this forum must put a lot of pressure on the authorities in their countries and should push them towards taking positive measures for our language. I think that is our only option.

'The other arguments are also part of the non-use of the language in the domains of education, administration, commerce, judiciary and the media. All languages are adequate for the expression of the social reality of the societies in which they are born. However, it is only when they are used in other domains, domains which modernity has brought in, that, their vocabulary expands. To some extent it expands by borrowing from other languages spontaneously but for the most part, language planners create new terms. This process, called modernisation or neologism, is necessary when 'a language is extended for new functions and topics' and takes place even in developed, modem societies though not to the extent it occurs in developing ones (Cooper 1989: 149). But this, too, is done by powerful language-planning institutions, generally state supported ones. In the case of Punjabi the state did nothing of the kind. Hence, if Punjabi is deficient in modern terms (technical, administrative, philosophical, legal etc ), it is not an inherent limitation but merely lack of language planning. Once again, the fault is that of the state and not that ofPunjabi.,'

the above is a quote from an article in APNA and proves my point. I am not powerful enough on my own, and need support here
Rupe

The other arguments are also part of the non-use of the language in the domains of education, administration, commerce, judiciary and the media. All languages are adequate for the expression of the social reality of the societies in which they are born. However, it is only when they are used in other domains, domains which modernity has brought in, that, their vocabulary expands. To some extent it expands by borrowing from other languages spontaneously but for the most part, language planners create new terms. This process, called modernisation or neologism, is necessary when 'a language is extended for new functions and topics' and takes place even in developed, modem societies though not to the extent it occurs in developing ones (Cooper 1989: 149). But this, too, is done by powerful language-planning institutions, generally state supported ones. In the case of Punjabi the state did nothing of the kind. Hence, if Punjabi is deficient in modern terms (technical, administrative, philosophical, legal etc ), it is not an inherent limitation but merely lack of language planning. Once again, the fault is that of the state and not that ofPunjabi.,p>
the above is a quote from an article in APNA and proves my point. I am not powerful enough on my own, and need support here
Rupe

It seems the Panjabees of Pakistan are more passionate about Panjabee. Is it possible to pass my ideas onto dawn, or influential panjabee authgorities or bodies? Maybe Pakistan will take the discussion of these ideas more seriously than east panjab's universities?

That Shahmukhi sounds more close to Gurmukhi does not and
cannot lend any more credibilty to the term Shahmukhi than
PaNjabi itself would.

Let me give a couple of examples. You surely know that the
Urdu language and its script Urdu is based on the same
Pesian. Pre-Kamal Turkish language had the same script, Persian too.

I will make my final point on the subject as follows. If
we have adopted a script from Persian to mold it for
writing PaNjabi by adding additional letters and symbols for PaNjabi-specific sounds, it is quite logical and appropriate to call it PaNjabi rather than some ambiguous Shahmukhi.

Chandigarh, August 27
In a passionate invitation extended to his counterpart in Pakistan Punjab, the Chief Minister, Capt Amarinder Singh, has invited him and his Cabinet colleagues to visit City Beautiful, in the first week of November, if possible. Capt Amarinder Singh has also expressed a desire to visit Pakistan Punjab.

The invitation has been extended through the Ministry of External Affairs. Capt Amarinder Singh has written a demi-official letter to Mr Kanwal Sibal, Foreign Secretary. A request has been made by the Chief Minister to Mr Sibal to get the letter delivered to Mr Parvez Elahi, Chief Minister of Punjab in Pakistan.

While inviting Mr Elahi and his colleagues to Chandigarh, Capt Amarinder Singh has expressed concerned over “artificial barriers” that divide the two Punjabs.

Capt Amarinder Singh, has requested Mr Elahi to “let me know when it would be convenient for you to come to Chandigarh. The best time would be after the first week of November. After your visit, perhaps, I could then come to you along with my colleagues to meet you and the people of Punjab”.

Though Capt Amarinder Singh has not made any mention there seems to be bigger purpose of inviting Mr Elahi to Chandigarh. Pakistan is interested in importing wheat from Indian Punjab. Recently, Mr Lal Singh, Punjab Food and Supply Minister, had sought permission of the Union Government to export two million tonnes of wheat to Pakistan through Markfed. An other purpose seems to pave the way for opening the Wagah border for promoting trade with Pakistan, Afghanistan and certain Arab countries.

Shahid Ji, Thanks for the date of that post. I have read both sides but tend to lean more towards Safir Rammah Ji's argument regarding the naming of Persian based script as "Shahmukhi". I think calling Persian script as "Punjabi" somehow will suggest that it is more official or legitimate than Gurmukhi. Having similar sounding names for both scripts makes them equally valid as eachother. Just my opinion.

P.S Kahlon Sahib, I agree that spoken language is more important than the use of any particular script.

I read one of your old posts regarding Sikhs in the NWFP and FATA areas of Pakistan who did not know that there had been a partition.

Although these Sikhs know about the partition of Punjab, i thought these videos may interest you and other readers of this forum. I found them on Tribune - Chandigarh, Punjab. One is about opening of a Gurdwara in Pakistan and the other is about Sikhs in the NWFP who want to visit Amritsar and the Golden Temple:

Shahid Ji, Thanks for the date of that post. I have read both sides but tend to lean more towards Safir Rammah Ji's argument regarding the naming of Persian based script as "Shahmukhi". I think calling Persian script as "Punjabi" somehow will suggest that it is more official or legitimate than Gurmukhi. Having similar sounding names for both scripts makes them equally valid as eachother. Just my opinion.

P.S Kahlon Sahib, I agree that spoken language is more important than the use of any particular script.
I read one of your old posts regarding Sikhs in the NWFP and FATA areas of Pakistan who did not know that there had been a partition.

Although these Sikhs know about the partition of Punjab, i thought these videos may interest you and other readers of this forum. I found them on Tribune - Chandigarh, Punjab. One is about opening of a Gurdwara in Pakistan and the other is about Sikhs in the NWFP who want to visit Amritsar and the Golden Temple:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030708/jul7icev1-56k.ram - Kartarpur Sahib
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030709/jul8worv1-56k.ram - Frontier Sikhs
These are other (brief) videos which may be of interest:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030705/jul4worv2-56k.ram - Stranded Sikh Youths in Pakistan
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030714/jul13feav3-56k.ram - Punjab's Folk Dance
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030803/aug2icev7-56k.ram - Samjhauta Express
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030806/aug5feav1-56k.ram - Kalasha Tribe (Interesting video on Tribal peoples of the Hindu Kush)
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030816/aug15icev1-56k.ram - Hussianiwala Border

Rupinder Ji Is this the Punjab Heritage Foundation you were thinking of?
http://www.ukpha.org/

It matters not what script Punjabi is writtern in, only that the language is kept alive and evolving. I agree that common words are adopted as they are daily used and then become part of language. But I have to say that in the cases I am talking about, no one to my knowledge has considered animals et cetra not familiar to Punjabis. How else will we able to acurately describe these animals in our literature or to general punjabi population? I am born in Uk and therefore the day I decide I am okay enough to attempt writing noveles in Punjabi , they will be about the experince of western Punjabis, which the Pakistani and Indian communities may find interesting, but will need to understand what I refer to at times. Thus my case.

Dear Akhilesh Ji

,
I will see SOAS. I don't think it matters which language words are asimmulated from. Like PS Kahlon, it depends upon common use, I believe or my specialty approach, which requires tsill, acceptance from others.

Sajid Chaudhry Sahib has posted an article in Shahmukhi and I was trying to read . It seems that Guru Angad's name is written as "Angar". Am I reading wrong or is it misspelled? Any comment?

Akhilesh and Rup:

I think the commonly used words in our daily life should be adopted regardless of their origin. Language cannot be polluted by foreign words. Language evolve as culture evolve. What do you think regarding this thought? As you know I am very proud of our heritage and Punjabi language likr all of us are but I don't feel threatend by the commonly used words in our language whether they come from Urdu/Hindi or any other language as long as they are not used to show the superiority by the user. Some of you may remember my story about a Person like me from a village goes to FC college Lahore and try to speak Urdu to show that he comes from an "educated" family. " Meree MaNjee pay Kaun Baitha hai and his father turned around and said, aapp key Pitta jee baithey hain".

What about if we don't wory about the script also whether it is Gurmukhi or Devnagri or Shahmukhi? I happened to believe though,that my spoken Punjabi can only be written in exact sounds in Gurmukhi. It may be that I dont know proper Shahmukhi or Devnagri scripts. But that is my preference. In my family every body older than me wrote Punjabi in Shahmukhi. This is just " food for thoughts" as they say. Keep up the good work we need young people like you to carry our banner. Best wishes.

Dear Akhilesh Saheb:
When I tried yesterday the link I had posted was working.
You are right today it seems somehow not working. But the
relevant text has already been posted by Sajid Chaudhry jee
on the Forum, a few posts back in the Persian script.

As to why I call Shahmukhi for Persian scripted PaNjabi a misnomer, I believe some of the reasons have already been
posted on this Forum by one Abul Fazal Mahmud on August 27,
2002 (you can see the archives for his post). My line of reasoning is in fact similar.

Shahid Sahib, I was just wondering why you feel that "Shahmukhi" is a misnomer for the Persian based script of Punjabi language. Also, unfortunately the link you provided does not work.

Rupinder Ji, Have you tried getting in touch with the School of African & Oriental studies? (SOAS - http://www.soas.ac.uk/) I think they are perhaps the best place in the UK as far as Punjabi language is concerned, they may show interest in your project.

I have found that they hold evening classes in spoken Punjabi and Punjabi in Gurumukhi script. It's a bit expensive, Ł220 per term (10 weeks) but i need a good place to learn Punjabi and SOAS is probably the best.

p.s, Is it possible to borrow words from Persian? Many Punjabi words are of Persian origin (S and Sh sounds). Or is this something most Punjabis are against?

Mere Piarrae Punjabiat,
As APNA is an academy, how about using this forum as an investigation into new Punjabi words. This must not be done for the sake of it. Only where new words are required either by studying old words that are out of use, or can be used as a basis for a new word or by creating new words, or borrowing some. We have borrowed many from Urdu and Hindi, but where these languages have failed to provide words we have looked to English. However if we have to borrow words from foreign modern languages, English is the least logical one.
English has worked where words that are popular like computer, gas, drill and press ( As in ironing) are concerned. But it is illogical to adapt their words Black Bird, skyscraper, and rocket / space ship for example. Spaceship could easily be Sitara Jahaj, and if no Punjabi base word exists, the others can be replaced by other languages as Spanish which have similar sounds to Punjabi, Urdu and Hindi. Of course where Punjabi words such as Press have become too popular , this is not possible.
Also, in defence of my case I shall have to say this. Although Latin has defined every type of specie that has been named and discovered, Punjabi does not have common names for these creature as does English and other European languages. In many cases this is not a problem, as the animal name can simply be adapted. But there are many words we take for granted that look illogical in a Punjabi sentence ( certainly in the Diaspora), such as Polar Bear. Okay so Penguin can be written in Shahmukhi/Gurumukhi and look correct. But Polar Bear will not. Why not either adapt another language word or call it Chitah Richch?
It is obvious from other people’s comments that other such areas need new nouns too. I do not mind compiling a list of animal name ideas , if at least 4 other people also do so. We need people to do the same for other areas such as literary words. Then if Rammmah Ji is willing to create a subsite at Apna for this, we can discuss, accept and reject, giving our final approved submissions to Official Dictionary publishers on both sides of the Border, or create our own dictionary via APNA, which Rammah Ji’s team can edit and develop; and of course send our conclusions to the Various Punjabi teaching Universities.
The Punjabi Diaspora is diverse and has picked up words from wherever our people have settled. Many are now used intermittedly with Punjabi. That is how English evolved to have so many words. Many of us are settled in English speaking countries so have used English words to fit in spaces to our limited Punjabi education, or where there are no Punjabi words. But do not forget those who have settled in Europe and the Far East. They have done the same. somewhere between all this movement Internationally spoken Punjabi has shed some words and gained some. Our Dictionaries ought to reflect this. So how many of you are up for getting involved? There are no costs Just communication via this website and communication with other Punjabi websites and schools?
Rupe, passionate about Punjabi.

Dear Shahid Ji ,
I Fully accept your arguement. It does not matter which script is used, as long as the language is kept alive, and I fully apprciate why West Punjab use the script they do, and why it has to be the leading script. My comments were based more on people living in the UK and their attitudes. In fact I would love to add shahmukhi to the lessons I do, but I need an expert in it to colloboate with me, so the same thing that has been done for 5abi can be done for APNA but for both alphabets.
However what is everyone's opinions on the new suggested nouns? Perhaps Rammah Jee can dedicate a page on this site for all of us to post our suggestions, then vote for the best , which he can present to the correct language authorities in lahore and Patiala?
Rupe

PaNjabi is a language and has existed so from pre-Vedic and pre-Sanskrit times (definitely then it was not called PaNjabi. For the word PaNjab, late Mohammed Asif Khan has
done extensive research and concluded that written evidence of the usage of the word PaNjab dates from 12th century.
He quotes some verses in Persian from Shah Ne'mat Allah
Wali (1152AD):

Yes muslims now have a distinctly different and well established script for writing PaNjabi and it is very old.
It is the same script in Which Baba Farid left his writings
for us (Baba Saheb reportedly died about 1265). The Persian
based PaNjabi (I will start calling this script PaNjabi since Shahmukhi is a complete misnomer for it) script has
its history dating many centuries before that for writing PaNjabi. For those who want to and can read a brief history
of this script used for written Panjabi, see the material
at the link given below (it also happens to be in Persian
scripted PaNjabi by respected Syed Sabtul Hasan Zaigham).

http://www.nawaiwaqt.com.pk/daily/may-2003/15/index.htm

(Sajid Chaudhry Jee: Can you please paste content of
this BBC.com news-related article for the benefit of all).

This is a historical fact that official language during the Raj of Ranjeet Singh was Persian.

To all happiness of their preferred written scripts and let
us not thrust one to the other. If someone is propagating
and championing a particular script for PaNjabi as the only
PaNjabi script, surely they also have their own good
reasons. But most understand the dynamics.

There is very good reason that the Muslim PaNjabis have adopted what they have adopted or were handed down. Let
me make a bold claim:
the nature of social forces in Pakistan is such that any suggestion of even remotely linking written Panjabi
language in Pakistan with Gurmukhi will always hurt the larger cause of Panjabi in Pakistan.
I am sure no one wants that to happen.

Users of a language are at many different levels. Expert
linguists have to know many different languages and scripts to do their job effectively. Late Mohammad Asif Khan, a PaNjabi, and Annmarie Schimmel, a German, are two excellent
such examples. But majority of ordinary users of any
language, and PaNjabi is no exception, have much simpler
needs and those needs are driven by social, cultural,
religious and other regional aspects specific to their environment.

SSA / SA,
My suggestion for the alphabet only came from the fact some Punjabee Muslims felt uncomfortable with Gurumukhi as they saw this as Sikh. The problem is that in the Uk, only the SIkhs have promoted Punjabi, so western textbooks teach it in Gurumukhi format.
In so far as the names of animals go, I have to say that my research has shown the sounds of languages like Spanish have similiar patterns as our own, and the unusal languages like Cherokee offer better names than American English does for amerrican animal names, that we could use to describe species there.
Spanish and French as just a good a sourse for loan words as English is, and more logical in sounds than English words are. Remmember that Punjabi is an Indo-European Family language. So if any one has no passionate objections to the names I have suggested, please can an influential person suggest these to a Punjabi Language board or something in Lahore and Patiala? ANd other people should also think along these lines too.
As far as looking into past Punjabi words that is fine too. That is how I cam up with the ideas of Lal Banh Manhs for Orangutan. After all it is red Gorilla of sorts?
In so far as the word for Turkey is concerned, there is not a word I have come across in any Punjabi dictionary, although the word for partridge exists, which is probably what you were thinking of.
All the words listed below have had Gurumukhi Spellings constructed for
them, but not shahmukhi spelling. I hope someone well versed in Shahmukhi
does so. Here are the names
People not familiar with my ideas, not the objective was to develop or adopt
nouns for animals not in INDIA or PAKISTAN , and thus the Panjabi experince,
into Punjabi, instead of blindly following English
The words are:,
Orca-Vehl for Killer whale
Otsounate for Rattlesnake
Espaada for Swordfish
Bokeroness Muchchi for Herring
Dhuddaa for Toad
Tara Muchchi for starfish
Talada for Cricket, so as to separate from Tiddha for Grasshopper
Dhuddee for Tadpole
Jeengha Muchche for Crayfish
Dallo for Squid
Langosta for Lobster
Mero Muchchee for Sea Bass
Ghambass for Prawns
Troocha for Trout
Robalo Muchchee for haddock
Toona for Tuna
Faissan for Pheasant
Pavo for Turkey
QuoQuo for Robin
Jiodaga for Mink
Golanv Kaan for Raven
Valelu for Hummingbird
huhu for mockingbird
laal Banh Manhs for Orangutan
Shah Kaderna for Porcupine
shortee chunj tootaa for Puffin
Lanbee chunj tootaa for Toucan
Komodo Drache for Komodo Dragon
Chita Sir Oukab for Bold Eagle
Sonaree Ill for Golden Eagle
These are just a small sample. please provide your opinions, and if anyone
actively wants to be involved, let me know
Rupe

Rupinder ji the problem is not the alphabet and i think Gurumukhi alphabet is perfect for writing Punjabi. Most of the good books have been translated in both the alphabets anyway. For example APNA has done a good job in doing it. Your comment about taking words from different languages other then Urdu, Hindi, English is not clear. I don't know where we should look for the vocabulary. I think may be our rich punjabi literature or classical poetry will help in this matter. I will love to hear from other members of this forum about taking vocabulary from languages other then Hindi, Urdu, and English.

Abdul Ji, I totally agree with you that Punjabis should not rely on Urdu/Hindi but should develop their own words to fill the gaps that are present in our language as it relates to science, technology, even animals.

As for the rooting out of Persian etc words from Hindi, not only have people been doing this but they have been trying to change words with the "Z" sound and replace them with the "J" sound, which is supposed to be more "Indian Hindu" or some ridiculous reason like that. I hope Punjabis do not fall into this kind of idiocy.

Regarding the teaching of Punjabi in schools in Punjab province of Pakistan, is there any news on this? Someone posted a little while ago a news article that CM Pervez Elahi was keen on promoting the Punjab language and culture in the Punjab, does anyone know the latest on this?

Rupinder Ji, Im sorry to hear that the universities in East Punjab have not shown much interest in your project, perhaps there is some sort of bias going on. Lets be honest, there are a few Punjabis out there who are great listeners and are quick to steal someone else's ideas and put their name on it. I think this is a negative trait found in some Punjabis.

About Punjabis in the UK. I cam across the figure "500,000" somewhere, but i cant remember if this is the number of Sikhs (including Punjabi Hindus) or if this is the figure for the number of Punjabi speakers in the UK. Do you know the statistics? Also, i thought that most Pakistanis in the UK were not really Punjabis, but originate from Mirpur region in Azad Kashmir and speak "Mirpuri" which is more of a dialect or broken from of Punjabi, sort of like Creole is with French, correct me if im wrong.

Im totally opposed to replacing Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi with a new script, sorry to say. Both scripts are official, legitimate, and should be preserved in my opinion. I dont know if people in Haryana and Himachal use devanagri to write Punjabi, but if they do then i wouldnt be opposed to them ditching hindi and using the correct Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi scripts, as they should do.

Finally, not that my opinion carries any weight, but i think your list of names for animals is fine. I was surprised to read that Punjabi language has no word for turkeys, dont we have turkeys in Punjab? Lol... I thought we did... guess i was wrong.

dear all ,
in the UK one problem with Punjabi is that the Muslim community hate to admit to being Punjabi because the Shahmukhi alphabet is like Urdu, and therefore so distinct from Gurumukhi, that both Sikh and Mulsim are amtaonistic about learning each others alphabet or writing in Punjabi.
Maybe a neutral alphabet for both sides is needed.
Perhapos this?
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stadium/7075/cherokee/Sequoyah.htm

Dear Shahid Ji
Thanks for posting for me
Dear Akhilesh Ji
My Link does state 1993, so hopefully since than quite a few things have changed. I am also unsure of their approach in collecting data.
My Punjabi animal program is a one man band. The state universities in East Punjab have shown scant interest. And no one has e-mailed me any ideas, and nor have I heard of anyone start a paper on it, or website. Perhaps APNA visitors may want a discussuion on it? Or Rammah Ji can doe something?
In the UK Punjabi is now officially the second most spoken language, due mainly because the Muslim population speak it and the Sikh Population have broken into the European Music Industry.

Asalamm Alaikaam Ji,
I agree With you entirely on this matter, that is what the PREM monikered project I began is about, but no one has given me feedback on these ideas to devise our own Punjabi lexigraphy and borrow words on purpose from other languages than Urdu, Hindi and English, so we are distinct from Hindi especially. I hav e posted a list of some of my suggestions in regards to animal names on APNA, but no one has volunteerd to comment upon my ideas much less suggest their own words for a new Punjabi KOSH.
I am awaiting responses,
Sat Sri Akaal
Rupinderpal Singh Dhillon
UK

Here is a 8/23 report in the Los Angeles Times. Sorry, I could not download it so I am just copying it out!

A Pakistani theatre group has brought together two grand dames of south asian theater in "A Granny For All Seasons", a play about their divided lives for more than four decades in India and Pakistan.

In a sign of the improving relations in the subcontinent, Ajoka, a Pakistani troupe working for social change, travelled on the regular 'friendship bus' linking the nuclear rivals to put on two shows in New Delhi this week. First staged in 1993, the play centers on the lives of two sisters who play themselves on stage: Indian actress Zohra Sehgal, 92, and her sister Uzra Butt, 86, who migrated to Pakistan in 1960.

Director Madeeha Gauhar said the real-life story tells of the trauma of families divided by artificial boundaries and also tackles the politically sensitive issue of Pakistanis being forced to shed their cultural and historical links with india.

I think the only method for the survival of Punjabi language is that the school instruction in Punjab should be in Punjabi and Children should be taught the classical literary works of Sufis and other classical writers just like they are taught Ghalib, Iqbal, and other numerous poets of Urdu in schools. The media has to promote Punjabi and there should be newspapers in Punjabi and some channels especially dedicated to Punjabi language. I am strongly against those people who think that people who speak Punjabi are illiterate and don’t know anything. This attitude has to be changed. It is a fact that Sufis played a big role in the development of Punjabi language but now all the development has been going on in Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab is way behind in taking the concrete measures in this field. People are so passionate about their mother tongues all around the world. Arabs said deaf to the entire world that didn’t speak Arabic. British claimed that Shakespeare’s plays are more important then any of their conquests. I don’t see that passion in Punjabis. I hope our authorities open their eyes and give the status to Punjabi language which it deserves badly.

Javed Zaki Sahab i will try to get these books which you have mentioned Inshallah soon through my relatives who live in Lahore. I am thankful for the address of bookstores. I also want to make a small comment about APNA's publications. I did try to e-mail Javed Boota Sahib but the e-mail address was not working.

A.D. Malik Jee. Shahid Jee has rightly pointed out some of the best available books in Punjbai. However, you can have an easy access to a great treasure of Punjabi literature from various sources. To begin with, APNA has published many books and they are available on request.
In Lahore, you can visit "Pakistan Punjabi Adabi Board- 15/17 Out-Fall Road. Santt Nagar, Lahore. You can find books on:

As for your reference to the common use of Urdu and Farsi vocabulary in Punjabi is concerned, it has become a reality of far reaching consequences, as you rightly pointed out. However, we must remember that Punjabi as a language can fulfill all the requirements of any developed language.

Before Urdu was imposed by the British Colonialists on Punjab in late-19th century (1880s), all the so-called serious subjects such as, Ilim-i-Tahrir, Ilm-i-Tib, Philsopha and Taarikh, Tafsir, Logic were taught in "Madaaras." Moreover, Commerce etc. were taught in "Mahajini Schools" in Punjabi. Anyways, despite of all existing factors ( most importantly, the governmental patronage, our own indifferent attitude, the so-called altruistic nationalism based on dogmatic religiosity and the unhindered penetration of capitalist relations, its tools and organization etc.), which tend to restrict the evolution and the growth of Punjabi, many Punjabi Scholars
are striving hard to preserve and promote Punjabi’s original character and substance. Najam Husaain Syed is one prominent name among these scholars.

Shahid sahab i would love to read the Punjabi literature which you have mentioned but when i will go to Pakistan. I am studying right now in USA and here as you know it's almost impossible to get any Punjabi book. I am twenty one years old and you will be surprised to hear that i have never read any Punjabi novel or book in my life. Isn't it sad? My "Dadi jan" was big fan of Punjabi. My grandfather was in the Army so they lived in Chandigarh and other parts of Indian Punjab before partition. She had so many books written in Gurmukhi script. I remember once i went to my village which is located near Neher Upper Jehlum and i saw old and almost crumbled books in her closet. Apparently after my grandmother's death no body took care of those books. I didn't know the Gurmukhi script that time but i have learnt it now. One more problem is that i had my early education in the English medium schools and now when i read Bulleh Shah's kalam on this website or any other classical literature I don’t understand half of it. I think there is a need of one good dictionary of Punjabi-Urdu/Urdu-Punjabi or English-Punjabi/Punjabi-English. It will help a lot people like me. I am searching for it. Let's see if i can find it.

Abdul Qadir Malik Saheb:
It is sad to note that what has so far been created in different fields of sciences and literature in PaNjabi in Persian script has not reached the masses mainly due to poor means of circulation of published material. I have had the good fortune of reading excellent published material covering some aspects of this very issue addressed by some very dedicated group of people in Lahore, Pakistan, notably late Mohammad Asaf Khan (Pakistan PaNjabi Adabi Board, Lahore). His Kann Lekha, Panjabi Boalee daa PchhokaR, Mudhalee Lafzalee, Nik Sukk, Hoar Nik Suk, Bhare Bhindaar and scores of essays to enrich almost all aspect of PaNjabi language, unfortunately, have not been well preached and
publicized. This could have proved a catalyst for those who want to see PaNjabi enriched and developed so that it can face challenges of modern times.

PaNjabi is being hurt from within, by PaNjabis who can contribute but do not. In the absence of State patronage, who else is there to take care of this problem? It is impressive to see what a small group of people already have achieved. Need is that more join hands and work together with well defined goals and projects. I sincerely hope this does happen.

Sat Sri Akal / Aslamu Alikum,
I think if you guys see the development of Punjabi in the modern fields like Science and technology then you would definitely agree with me that Punjabi is taking all the vocabulary from Urdu/Hindi and not making its own words for any terms. I think after some time the Punjabi accent will be spoken in our beautiful Punjab but the language we will speak will be Urdu/Hindi. In other words our own Punjabi vocabulary won't be there and people will say that Punjabi is not a different language but different accent of Urdu/Hindi. In the area of Science, Literature, and modern technology Punjabi language is not flourishing and that is worst for any language in this modern era. I can give a very simple example that before the partition Hindi was not using vocabulary of Sanskrit and mostly it was influenced by Arabic and Farsi but after the independence Indian authorities tried to root out Farsi and Arabic words from Hindi and replaced these words with Sanskrit equivalents. The point is that Punjabi lexicographers should rely less on Urdu/Hindi and should try to create words different then Urdu/Hindi so it makes the Punjabi language more rich and complete. Any feed back on this topic will be appreciated.

Interesting
Dear All, I've misplaced my Apna password, so I thought
one of you can either post this, or direct e-mail might
be a good way to provide you with this information. As
you can see, since the world has 6,000 languages, Punjabi
is hardly in danger.
RD

Interesting
Dear All, I've misplaced my Apna password, so I thought
one of you can either post this, or direct e-mail might
be a good way to provide you with this information. As
you can see, since the world has 6,000 languages, Punjabi
is hardly in danger!

For people who can read Punjabi in Gurmukhi and are interested in the Shahmukhi Punjabi newspaper "Bhulekha" (http://www.bhulekha.com/) i received this email from one of their members of staff:
"Salam
Thanks for showing intrest in punjabi language shahmukhi for you information we are publishing Bhulekha International which contains Half Of Its Tolal pages in Gurmukhi and Halg pages in Shahmukhi you can get Bhulekha International Copy From our Lundon Office =
31-Alcester Road South (First Floor) Kings Heath Birmingham Post Code B147jQ
Thanks Again"

Thats good news to me, i hope Punjabi news papers in Punjab state can also introduce some Shahmukhi pages along with Gurmukhi and English pages. (If they havent already).

Rupinder Ji regarding your email - http://www.cftech.com/BrainBank/COMMUNICATIONS/TopLanguages.html - I would have thought that the number of speakers of which Punjabi is their mother-tongue would be a bit higher than 70 million speakers. I checked some official population statistics on the entire Punjab region and found the populations to be:

6) Chandigarh, Union Territory of India (East Punjab) Area - 114sq km. Population - 900,914 (2001 Census). Serves as the capital to both the states of Punjab and Haryana.

I know that there are many non-Punjabis (probably millions) who have migrated to different parts of Punjab after partition but still im sure the correct figure is quite bit higher than 70 million. There are also many Punjabis who live in New Delhi and a few million Punjabis in diaspora.

As for the language not being in danger, i thought it was in danger of losing out on development and keeping the same on both sides of the internationally divided Punjab rather than becoming an extinct language.

p.s, Hows the classification of animals going? My spoken Punjabi is way below basic because it is only within past couple of years that i have taken an interest to learn it. Being a full time student i havent been able to put much time into my Punjabi and have only so far learned the basics of Gurmukhi script. The Gurdwara doesnt really have spoken Punjabi classes so im stuck....

Can I talk about a punjabi special man? he is not out of his culture, literature,language?
Why do you people only praise the one gone or past saints? Why dont you look for a living saint?
He is of sikh faith but his character falls into perfect human being.
If a person is not bad at all would you call him not man enough? or saint!
Please do reply.
Please anybody wants to potray him on movie ask me. This certainly will open lots of untold doors of punjab, certainly falls into society, culture and leterature.

Regarding your comment "Glad you can get back onto the forum because it is in a comatose state these days." If i may take a 'stab' at why this has happened, i think it is because some people are a bit reserved, shy perhaps? To express their real feelings/opinions on certain issues.

Maybe some people are a bit too careful and trying hard not to say something which they feel might offend someone else.

I am open to all forms of fair criticizm as it relates to Punjab, Punjabi, Punjabis, India, Pakistan etc...

Who better to speak openly with than people from your own ethnic group who share same love for their culture, history and identity?

An article "Silence of Five Rivers' by Zubair Ahmad, which provided a comprehensive review of the evolution of Punjabi literature and language has been published in the 'Dawn Century Supplement' in the daily Dawn of August, 18, 2003. It is worth reading.
Rammah Jee. I will strongly recommend the article to be posted on APNA's website.
Javed Zaki

Dulla Bhatti Veer ji, the film is a 100% Punjabi film. Its original title was Veero and was shot in a place called Wah - a small village close to Gurudwara Punja Saheb in the Pothohar region.
The confusion is caused by the new title Khamosh Pani which sounds a lot closer to Urdu than Punjabi.
The director of the film, Ms Sabiha Sumar, is a Sindhi lady from Karachi married to a Tamilian Hindu Brahmin from Sri Lanka.

The narrative is woven around a woman, Veero, from a village called Charkhi where Sikh women had jumped into a well at the time of the 1947 partition of the sun-continent. One woman, Veero, however refused to jump and tearing herself ran away to stay back in the village as Ayesha.

The script of the film takes off from the late Bhisham Sahni's Tamas initially but develops into a very different story eventually. It deals with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Pakistan in the aftermath of Bhutto's assassination and the irresistible rise of Gen Zia-ul-Haq. It was developed jointly by Sabiha Sumar and the Mumbai based Ms Paromita Vohra - a feminist filmmaker -whose family migrated to Delhi from Lahore in 1947.

The music of the film was mostly done by Madan Gopal Singh but there is one song from an old Pakistani film which Arshad Mehmood rerecorded. Arjun Sengupta - a Delhi based music arranger - helped polish the background score. Voices of Shri LK Pandit of the Gwalior gharana and his highly talented daughter, Ms Mita Pandit; of Madan Gopal Singh; of Rekha Raj; and, Bhai Baldeep Singh were used in the film.

The performers from India included Kiron Kher of Mumbai-Chandigarh who also won the Best Actress for the film; Navtej Johar whose parents migrated from Rawalpindi; Shilpa, who is a Delhi based actress from Bihar and can barely speak Punjabi (and it shows in the film) and Madan Gopal Singh whose work I have often taken the liberty to put on the APNA website.

This is absolutely the first Punjabi film to win such a big Inernation Award and that in the Best Film category. This is something historic.

Sukhbir ji, thanks for the information on the movie. I read somewhere that it was originally done in Urdu. I also saw websites refering the language of the movie as Punjabi. Any clarification on that. Looking forward to watching it..that is when and if we can find it here..American video chains do a poor job of offering foreign films. I hope this one makes to Blockbuster.

and how is summer treating everyone? Suman ji, I was in the south for 2 days visiting disney and universal with some visiting family members but it was very tiresome experience. Wished had more time to swing by to say kiddaN.

Sab Nu "Khamosh Paani" di kaamyabi te lakh lakh vadhaai hove... worth memorising...probably it is a reference point in the history of Punjabi films. Ms. Sumer has reached one of the heights. I hope, these creative people will soon scale further heights and register new success stories.

Punjabis always had a major input in Hindi cinema and Bollywood. But Punjabi films always attracted meagre investments (hence poor technologies/ sets/ equipments) and ended up comparable with the serials or plays from regional TV (Plays from PTV were grand). May be now Punjabi producers are getting big money from their music business or from overseas sources and Punjabi films are being revived.

Overseas producers have been depicting Punjabi culture in various Englih-hindi-Punjabi hybrid movies and had made very strong statement about financial and artistic potential of our movies, by altering the technical treatment to the movies. In recent past, the partial urbanisation of film plots, scripts, sets, technologies, and marketing, has produced some excellent movies. In recent past Punjabi films have changed their flavour from rural/ traditional/ religious themes to more realistic themes. It is also easy for people to relate to a well-prepared cinematic documentation of our progressive looking urbanised life imbibed in traditional roots, as it falls much in line with our quickly modernising life style. These films have imparted a facelift to the image of Punjabis, besides giving a new direction to Punjabi cinema.
Khuda hafij

Sab Nu "Khamosh Paani" di kaamyabi te lakh lakh vadhaai hove... worth memorising...probably it is a reference point in the history of Punjabi films. Ms. Sumer has reached one of the heights. I hope, these creative people will soon scale further heights and register new success stories.

Punjabis always had a major input in Hindi cinema and Bollywood. But Punjabi films always attracted meagre investments (hence poor technologies/ sets/ equipments) and ended up comparable with the serials or plays from regional TV (Plays from PTV were grand). May be now Punjabi producers are getting big money from their music business or from overseas sources and Punjabi films are being revived.

Overseas producers have been depicting Punjabi culture in various Englih-hindi-Punjabi hybrid movies and had made very strong statement about financial and artistic potential of our movies, by altering the technical treatment to the movies. In recent past, the partial urbanisation of film plots, scripts, sets, technologies, and marketing, has produced some excellent movies. In recent past Punjabi films have changed their flavour from rural/ traditional/ religious themes to more realistic themes. It is also easy for people to relate to a well-prepared cinematic documentation of our progressive looking urbanised life imbibed in traditional roots, as it falls much in line with our quickly modernising life style. These films have imparted a facelift to the image of Punjabis, besides giving a new direction to Punjabi cinema.
Khuda hafij

Sukhbir. Would love to see the film and will keep an eye out. Thanks for the info. Glad you can get back onto the forum because it is in a comatose state these days. Would you like to take a stab at why this has happened?

For the first time in the history of motion pictures, a Punjabi film from Pakistan - "Khamosh Pani by Sabiha Sumar - has won the Best Film Award at an International Film Festival. The Festival happens to be the Switzerland based prestigious Locarno International Film Festival. This is a very proud moment for all of us.

The film has also won the Best Actress Award for Kiron Kher the Mumbai based Indian actress.
In fact, the film is somewhat of an Indo-Pak Cultural Coup for the music of the film has been composed by Dr Madan Gopal Singh and Mr Arshad Mehmood.

The film also features the well-known Bharat Natyam dancer Navtej Johar, Delhi-based Shilpa and Madan Gopal Singh in important roles.

panjabi is not a race but a culture,who ever adopt it,is called panjabi,the recent punjab(east and west both) is consist of generaly central to northern races,main features are love,tolarence and enjoyment for all.all sufies bhuley shah,mian muhammad and waris shah etc are the symbols of punjabi culture

Sat Sri Akal / Aslamu Alikum,
I have seen the following novel on your website. What is the procedure to buy this book. The address which is given on your website javedboota@hotmail.com does not work. I will be thankful for help.
Aastak Naastak Novel Nanak Singh Shahmukhi 375 hardbound $20.00 1998

DullaBhatti ji... tuhadaa post pad kae main te meri wife has has kae doorae ho gaye... it was so funny and so well written that it made our day..
by the way mitro, the discussion board seems so cold now.. earlier it used to be tens of posts every day and now its one in a few days..safir jee, is it because of this new structure of the discussion board (login name etc.)?

Although my prime interest in Punjabi relates to the development of new words for the animal kingdom, and I am a decsendent of Doaba Punjab, India; I do have one thing to say about the last subject posted on the discussion site

First on religious grounds they split Punjab into two, pitting Muslim , Sikh and Hindu neighbours against each other as enemies. Then In India they split Punjab into three states decreasing the East Punjab state to a sliver. Now they impose Hindi in schools.

Sound to me that the Punjabis in Pakistan better take a stand, else the same will happen there too.

Saeed Sahib, that is good news about the project for promoting Punjabi language, culture and history in Punjab Province, Pakistan.

Javed Zaki Ji. Although not really my place to say, but i would not like to see the West Punjab divided into 3 parts, how is that beneficial to anyone other than local politicians?

Im sorry, i may be out of place here since i do not know much about Seriaki, but can someone please explain to me what is "Seriaki culture", who are the "Seriakis", and what is this "Seriaki nation".

Firstly, i am going to refuse to call it "Seriaki" since that is a Sindhi word and from reading opinions on DAWN etc it is quite clear that the Sindhis will do anything to brake Punjab.

First question. Are the speakers of Multani who live in Punjab ethnic Punjabis? Or are they a separate ethnic group?

2 - Does Multani have its own standard written form with its own alphabet?

3 - Would a Punjabi speaker from Majha area understand anything a speaker of Multani says?

4 - If 40% of all speakers of Multani live in Punjab, than why do they call this language/off-shoot language "Seriaki", which is a Sindhi word, why not Multani which is the proper name?

5 - If the Sindhis are so enthusiastic to brake Punjab and create a separate "Multani province", why then, are they seemingly not willing to brake Sindh also and include the Serikai parts of Sindh in the new Multan province?

Sorry Safir Rammah Ji if this is too political, but attempts from Sindhi organizations to divide the Punjabis and created cooked-up myths about the "Seriaki nation" from Mars who are "oppressed" by the Punjabis is an attack on our Punjabi people and culture.

Dear All
As some of you know I have corresponded with amny Punjabis for assistance in the PREM Project ( also known as Nawan Punjabi Kosh). Below are some of the animal names that have arisen from research, as compatiable with the Punjabi sound system, and more logical than the English words, where the English word is not well known, or there are no Punjabi equivlents. I Hope to write an article for Rammah Ji, but am waiting for him to get back to me. All the words listed below have had Gurumukhi Spellings constructed for them, but not shahmukhi spelling. I hope someone well versed in Shahmukhi does so. Here are the names

People not familiar with my ideas, not the objective was to develop or adopt nouns for animals not in INDIA or PAKISTAN , and thus the Panjabi experince, into Punjabi, instead of blindly following English

The words are:,
Orca-Vehl for Killer whale
Otsounate for Rattlesnake
Espaada for Swordfish
Bokeroness Muchchi for Herring
Dhuddaa for Toad
Tara Muchchi for starfish
Talada for Cricket, so as to separate from Tiddha for Grasshopper
Dhuddee for TadpoleJeengha Muchche for Crayfish
Dallo for Squid Langosta for LobsterMero Muchchee for Sea BassGhambass for Prawns Troocha for TroutRobalo Muchchee for haddock Toona for TunaFaissan for PheasantPavo for TurkeyQuoQuo for RobinJiodaga for MinkGolanv for RavenValelu for Hummingbirdhuhu for mockingbird

These are just a small sample. please provide your opinions, and if anyone actively wants to be involved, let me knowRupe

The following is the edited text of Mr Haneef Ramay's Dawn Dialogue interview:

QUESTION: Let's start from your latest thinking about Punjab. When the province was being criticised by other provinces, you had written a book to present Punjab's point of view. It was quite helpful in blunting the assault. But now, in a departure from your previous stand, you have started talking of a division of Punjab. This sounds like a defence counsel becoming the prosecutor. How do you explain the change?

ANSWER: Yes, it's an important question. When I wrote "Punjab Ka Muqaddama", it was not just Punjab's case that I was fighting. Actually, I had articulated the whole issue of provincial autonomy. Unfortunately, as a matter of general practice, we don't nip an evil in the bud, and then we have to pay the price. I think when the 1973 Constitution was unanimously adopted, the best course for the then government would have been to go the whole hog and grant autonomy to the provinces, whose contours had been very explicitly explained. And since the then prime minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, himself came from a smaller province - Sindh - it was a very appropriate time to allow the provinces to work within the parameters laid down in the Constitution. But, somehow, this was not to be. The provinces felt that even when a Sindhi leader was at the helm, most of the powers rested with the federal government and what was mentioned in the Constitution was not being followed.

The governments of Balochistan and the NWFP felt upset because they were being denied their due rights. I, as chief minister of the biggest province, also came to the conclusion that though Punjab was blamed for encroaching upon the rights of the other provinces, in actuality it was the federal government which was denying the provinces their rights and Punjab was no exception.

Then, when I became a senator, I felt it my duty to highlight the question of provincial autonomy and let everybody know that it was the federal government, not the Punjab, which was taking away the rights of the provinces. I realized that there was little change in the authority of the centre no matter which province the prime minister came from. When the Constitution was framed, the federal government had made an unwritten promise to revise the concurrent list of legislative powers after 10 years. When the time came to honour the commitment, the country was under Gen Zia's martial law, and no one bothered to revise the list.

It's a strange fact that the 1935 Government of India Act and the 1956 Constitution of Pakistan contained an exclusive list of rights of the provinces, but in the so-called federal constitution of 1973, there is no such list. If one looks around and sees what is happening in the various provinces, one shivers at the possible shape of things to come. The NWFP, for example, is going in a separate direction from the rest of the country. I have just been in Balochistan and participated in a workshop on provincial autonomy. The general feeling there is that Balochistan is only politically connected with Pakistan; socially and economically, the people of Balochistan say, they are more a part of Iran than Pakistan.

In Sindh, the water dispute has poisoned the situation to an extent that Sindhi leaders are calling for international arbitration to settle the dispute. This clearly means that the provinces are now unable to settle matters between themselves. The writ of the federal government, if at all it is there, works only in Punjab.

Having seen all this, I have come to the conclusion that the sense of deprivation in the three smaller provinces can only be stemmed if Punjab is divided into three parts. What I am proposing is not a novel idea nor should anyone be alarmed by it. In India, as you know, they have divided East Punjab into three provinces according to their needs. In more than 15 European countries, the population is less than 10 million each and they have many provinces. There is no hard and fast rule on how much population should have a separate province. Everything depends upon the situation and requirements of the people. We have 150 million people. In principle, we can easily make 15 provinces. But the beginning has to be made here in Punjab. Then, it's for Sindhis, the Balochs and the people of the NWFP to decide whether they want to keep their provinces in their existing form or divide them for the convenience of their people.

A brief but comprehensive analytical viewpoint to review Waris Shah's poetry. Nadir Ali polemically differs from others reviewers, who usually take a reductionist (and conservative) approach. He rightly pointed out that we need to take a great care in labelling our classical poets as mere 'Sufis' and 'mystics'. Shahid Jee. Thank you for posting the reference.

MULTAN, July 23: The 22-year-old girl, gang-raped in the chamber of a lawyer on the premises of Alipur tehsil courts on July 11, was admitted to the Muzaffargarh DHQ Hospital on Wednesday for complete medical examination.
Earlier, the Muzaffargarh police approached the Alipur THQ Hospital medical superintendent to get opinion about her mental health. The MS referred the girl to the DHQ Hospital.
The girl was reportedly raped by several people on July 11 last in the chamber of advocate Akhtar Leghari, situated in front of the court of additional district and sessions judge Safdar Saleem after the Friday prayers when usually the premises wear a deserted look.
It is learnt the girl has been 'mentally retarded' since birth. She has eight sisters and a brother. Her father had died several years ago and her mother earns a living by sewing clothes.
The only brother of the girl is also said to be a special person and had been missing for the last several years.
It is learnt that the victim used to come out of her house without informing any member of the family and wander aimlessly in streets.
On July 11, she again came out of her house and reached the tehsil courts where she was gang-raped allegedly by the clerks of the lawyers and court officials. The matter was hushed up initially, but someone informed the additional district and sessions judge.
The AD&SJ directed civil judge/area magistrate Haji Muhammad Aslam to inquire into the matter. The inquiry officer constituted two committees comprising lawyers and their clerks to assist him in the prob e. Both the committees verified the crime, but according to the area people some of the main culprits were not included in the list of accused presented to the inquiry officer.
On July 17, the Alipur city police registered a case under section 10/7/79 of Islamic laws against 13 people on the orders of the AD&SJ.
Alipur Anjuman Tajran President Munawar Bokhari alleged that names of the court officials involved in the crime were omitted from the list of 13 people sent to the police.
Residents of Alipur and people took out a number of protest processions to demand exemplary punishments for the accused who did not spare an 'insane' girl.
The Alipur lawyers observed a strike on Tuesday against the incident. They had earlier got three days from police to surrender all the culprits who mostly were their clerks. After three days they expressed their inability to 'spot' the culprits and to hand them over to the law-enforcers.
By that time it had been too late and the accused had fled way. Police could arrest only one accused - Allah Wasaya - while the attendant of the chamber where the crime was committed, Nazim (14), was handed over to police by advocate Akhtar Leghari on Wednesday.
Investigation Officer Sub-Inspector Ameer Ahmad Qureshi said the 'arrest' of Nazim would help resolve the 'mystery' of the case that actually how many people committed the crime.
The Nazim told this correspondent that six men who snatched keys of the chamber from him committed the crime.
SI Ameer Qureshi said that the victim had been admitted to the Muzaffargarh DHQ hospital to determine her mental health.
Talking to this correspondent in the hospital, the girl correctly pronounced her name, her mother's name, her town and number of siblings she had.
About the happening, she said "they were too many people." The victim's mother broke into tears while saying "my daughter has been criminally assaulted at the place where people go for justice."

MULTAN, July 23: The 22-year-old girl, gang-raped in the chamber of a lawyer on the premises of Alipur tehsil courts on July 11, was admitted to the Muzaffargarh DHQ Hospital on Wednesday for complete medical examination.
Earlier, the Muzaffargarh police approached the Alipur THQ Hospital medical superintendent to get opinion about her mental health. The MS referred the girl to the DHQ Hospital.
The girl was reportedly raped by several people on July 11 last in the chamber of advocate Akhtar Leghari, situated in front of the court of additional district and sessions judge Safdar Saleem after the Friday prayers when usually the premises wear a deserted look.
It is learnt the girl has been 'mentally retarded' since birth. She has eight sisters and a brother. Her father had died several years ago and her mother earns a living by sewing clothes.
The only brother of the girl is also said to be a special person and had been missing for the last several years.
It is learnt that the victim used to come out of her house without informing any member of the family and wander aimlessly in streets.
On July 11, she again came out of her house and reached the tehsil courts where she was gang-raped allegedly by the clerks of the lawyers and court officials. The matter was hushed up initially, but someone informed the additional district and sessions judge.
The AD&SJ directed civil judge/area magistrate Haji Muhammad Aslam to inquire into the matter. The inquiry officer constituted two committees comprising lawyers and their clerks to assist him in the prob e. Both the committees verified the crime, but according to the area people some of the main culprits were not included in the list of accused presented to the inquiry officer.
On July 17, the Alipur city police registered a case under section 10/7/79 of Islamic laws against 13 people on the orders of the AD&SJ.
Alipur Anjuman Tajran President Munawar Bokhari alleged that names of the court officials involved in the crime were omitted from the list of 13 people sent to the police.
Residents of Alipur and people took out a number of protest processions to demand exemplary punishments for the accused who did not spare an 'insane' girl.
The Alipur lawyers observed a strike on Tuesday against the incident. They had earlier got three days from police to surrender all the culprits who mostly were their clerks. After three days they expressed their inability to 'spot' the culprits and to hand them over to the law-enforcers.
By that time it had been too late and the accused had fled way. Police could arrest only one accused - Allah Wasaya - while the attendant of the chamber where the crime was committed, Nazim (14), was handed over to police by advocate Akhtar Leghari on Wednesday.
Investigation Officer Sub-Inspector Ameer Ahmad Qureshi said the 'arrest' of Nazim would help resolve the 'mystery' of the case that actually how many people committed the crime.
The Nazim told this correspondent that six men who snatched keys of the chamber from him committed the crime.
SI Ameer Qureshi said that the victim had been admitted to the Muzaffargarh DHQ hospital to determine her mental health.
Talking to this correspondent in the hospital, the girl correctly pronounced her name, her mother's name, her town and number of siblings she had.
About the happening, she said "they were too many people." The victim's mother broke into tears while saying "my daughter has been criminally assaulted at the place where people go for justice."

Here is the news in Daily The Nation: http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/July-2003/23/national/lhr2.asp

Pervez for promotion of Punjabi language, culture

By Our Staff Reporter

LAHORE-Punjab Chief Minister Ch Pervez Elahi Tuesday announced a comprehensive project for promoting Punjabi language, culture and history.
In this connection, an authoritative institute would be set up to give practical shape to various suggestion and proposals to galvanize Punjabi language and literature in the province, he said addressing a meeting of writers, poets and intellectuals held at Chief Minister's House, here. Besides Chief Secretary Hafeez Akhtar Randhawa, the meeting was attended by well-known intellectuals, including Shafqat Tanveer Mirza, Shehzad Ahmed, Raja Rasalu, Amjad Islam Amjad, Afzal Tauseef, Col. Nadir, Iqbal Qaiser, Saleem Shahid, Zahid Hassan, Qazi Javed, Irfan Ahmed, Abdul Rashid Bhatti, Shaista Nuzhat, Tanveer Zahoor and Jamil Ahmed Pal.
Ch. Pervaiz Elahi said that in the past, negligence has been shown in respect of promoting and protecting Punjabi language and culture in the province, whereas a great deal of work in regional languages is being done in other provinces of the country, especially Sindh.

Today's Jang published the column of Hasan Nisar with the title "Punjabi Zuban aur Pervaiz Ilahi". He wrote in favour of Punjbi. Though it is not carried in the net site of Jang but Sajid Ch. should try to fit it in some how. Bhaee Sajid Jee, koee toR kadho eys daa.

Dear Sirs / Madams,
The PREM project now has evolved into Numa Punjabi Kosh
Any volunteers who are willing to participate, in assisting in the research into new words for Punjabi , please contact me, so we can set proper teams
And Rammah Ji, I would very much like to write an article about the project
Please let me know if you will accept such an article, and how to submit it?

hi
This is very good site I can,t read real Punjabi but Punjabi songs are very nice stright goes into the mind and hearts but there is one thing why we can,t download them?? anyway this is very good web site i made my home page. thanx a lot.

hi
This is ver good site I can,t read real Punjabi but Punjabi songs are very nice stright goes into the mind and hearts but there is one thing why we can,t download them?? anyway this is very good web site i made my home page. thanx a lot.

I have over fifteen books on Baba Farid, in Punjabi, Urdu and English. Most of them wrote the date of birth as 1173 but it is not any criteria. I am also writing the date 1173 in my book on Baba Farid. Anyhow, our main focus is on the teachings and wisdom of Baba Jee. Thanks for sharing my comments. Rabb Raakhaa.

Anyone knows the exact date of birth of Baba Farid Jee. The articles given in the front page of our site apnaorg.com inform different dates of birth of Baba Jee. One writes 1173 and other writes 1175. Which is correct? Thanks.

A sad news I just read on the ajiweekly.com that a punjabi Sajjan a prominent writer in hindi and brother of late Balraj Sahni in no longer with us. His name is BHISHM SAHNI(writer of famous novel TAMAS)He was demised on July 10th 2003. He was a very famous writer in hindi but his stories had a solid background of punjab and punjabiat. May god bless his soul. Sincere thoughts to the demised family.

Ajay, thats good news about Punjabi being declared as the 2nd official language of Delhi. I had also read about that on Tribune - Chandigarh.

Do you know what the official status of Punjabi is in Haryana and Himachal Pradesh???

p.s. I was listening to the "Desi Duo" show on Panjab Radio last night (www.panjabradio.co.uk and SKY Digital channel 880) and they asked for listeners to send in internet sites which they would check out in the studio. So i sent them a txt message so that they could visit APNA. They got my message but by mistake i sent them "www.apna.org" which they read out on air and found that it was a site for an American nursing home. After this i phoned in and gave them the correct site address, which they went to and obviously liked. They then went on air and told all of their viewers to go online and log on to APNA website.

Just thought it would interest you to know about this little bit of free advertising for APNA on Panjab Radio. The more support and awareness for APNA the better!

Akhilesh. My comments were about the article and certainly not personal. That one should have love towards ones fellow human beings is a belief in every culture and religion, as well as in plenty of individuals. It is such a large thought that it should be the property of all - not labelized.

Those of U who have not already got the information, it is a matter of joy that Delhi Government has recently adopted Punjabi and Urdu both as official languages of the state. Both the languages already figure in the list of 17 official languages of India.

People involved in promotion of the languages may like to consider this as a clear milestone achieved. Cheers

PREM - Namee Saddee dee Punjabi Kosh
Proposal
Goal: Investigative and discussive forum, through the internet, and
Punjabi
and English Publications researching the possible creation of new words
to
be eventually standardised in a modern dictionary, including words
borrowed
from international languages ( English, Spanish and Others), which have
a
linguistic complience with Punjabi, where there are no appropriate words
in
existence.
The forum will not necessarily include established organisations which
show
no interest, but will suggest to, and take the view of organisations and
Punjabi individuals who which to contribute or critise ideas.
The new words will be in Roman Punjabi, Gurumukhi and Shahmukhi so all
Punjabees can have access to them.
The Primary condiration is Diaspora Punjabi's whose versions of Punjabi
are
exposed to international community.
The secondary consideration is the annilation of the Punjabi language in
India and Pakistan
As American English differs from British English, why should not Diapora
Punjabi take its own path of exploration.
Tools will be research into existing words in other languages , mainly
for
animal names et cetra, and new simple creations from existing Punjabi
words
recognisable by the common Punjabi, not the aloof intellect. Then place
on a
website and cause discussion and final standardisation of accepted words.
A committee including myself and other Punjabis will form the panel to
decide on these matters.
R Dhillon
PS I have lost Dr M Bhadwaj's e-mail, please forward this onto him, as
he
had requested this. This is the introduction to the final framework

Lao towade mehfil ch zara halki jahi gal nazar kariye....
Today this morning I left home for the day and as I passed by a Church, I read a huge sign that said "Jesus loves Punjabi's'..........later on I went to a downtown mall, and as I left Sears I saw written in Gurmukhi a sign that said Shukriya at the exit.....later on that day I opened the main provincial daily newspaper whilst having coffee, and was reading the escort section,(please don't ask me why, I don't have the faintest) and five consecutive ads said 'Punjabi Speaking' as part of the ad......finally as I left the coffee shop, the Italian attendant shouted Sat Sri akal, and namste behind me. Well from the above my only conclusion is it would seem Punjabi's are a lucrative market in more ways that one.

Saeed bhra ji: main Shauna Singh da novel parheya ay angraizee wich...hun dair ho gai ay 2-3 saal pehlay jad ayea si nawan nawan parheya si. The story is about this Sikh family living in poThohaar area in a village called Pari-darwaaza. It portrays very well the multi-religious and multi-ethnic community of even a small village like Pari-darwaaza in pre-parition era. Then the story deals with second marriage to a younger woman of the sardaar ji who is engineer. Later part of the novel deals with the pre-partition tentions and riots and violence following it. In my view it is a very good novel detailing the social set up punjab during that time period. I certainly recommend it. I don't know if they have a Punjabi version of it. I doubt it.

Akhilesh. Paighaam-e Mohabbat at least is not a 'sufi' album. It is a collection of poems that explore the effects of the partition from a variety of perspectives. Songs of loss, of memories, of regret. The words 'sufi' and 'sufiana' are thrown around so easily nowadays, any humanist, liberal conviction gets labelled 'sufi'. What a shame.

Chandigarh, July 7
In some months from now, the rich Sufi tradition of Punjab will be awarded its rightful place in the scheme of cultural progress of the state once the Sufi Foundation India, a voluntary organisation formed by some culturally-inclined people, including some top Punjab police officials, is launched with the objective of preserving the glorious heritage of Punjab.

Formed some time ago under the chairmanship of the ADGP, Law and Order, Punjab, Mr A.A. Siddiqui, an ardent lover of the Sufiana tradition, the organisation has a mentor in the celebrated film maker Muzaffar Ali, who was in the city on a special invitation from the organisation yesterday. With his strong Sufiana leaning and rich knowledge of the field, Muzaffar Ali could possibly have been the best ‘counsellor’ for the organisation.

Some years ago, Ali floated his own music company through which he had released four cassettes on Sufi love, the latest being ‘Jahan-e-Khusro. The earlier ones were ‘Paigham-e-Mohabbat’, ‘Jaam-e-Ishq’ and ‘Raqs-e-Bismil’. Not just this, Muzaffar Ali is also working on an international film based on the life of a renowned 13th century poet Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi. To be made on a budget of $ 10 million, Ali wants Al Pacino and Robert De Niro to work in this film. Another acclaimed project of Ali ‘India, Garden of Saints’ is a film on Sufi saints in India.

Chandigarh, July 7
In some months from now, the rich Sufi tradition of Punjab will be awarded its rightful place in the scheme of cultural progress of the state once the Sufi Foundation India, a voluntary organisation formed by some culturally-inclined people, including some top Punjab police officials, is launched with the objective of preserving the glorious heritage of Punjab.

Formed some time ago under the chairmanship of the ADGP, Law and Order, Punjab, Mr A.A. Siddiqui, an ardent lover of the Sufiana tradition, the organisation has a mentor in the celebrated film maker Muzaffar Ali, who was in the city on a special invitation from the organisation yesterday. With his strong Sufiana leaning and rich knowledge of the field, Muzaffar Ali could possibly have been the best ‘counsellor’ for the organisation.

Some years ago, Ali floated his own music company through which he had released four cassettes on Sufi love, the latest being ‘Jahan-e-Khusro. The earlier ones were ‘Paigham-e-Mohabbat’, ‘Jaam-e-Ishq’ and ‘Raqs-e-Bismil’. Not just this, Muzaffar Ali is also working on an international film based on the life of a renowned 13th century poet Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi. To be made on a budget of $ 10 million, Ali wants Al Pacino and Robert De Niro to work in this film. Another acclaimed project of Ali ‘India, Garden of Saints’ is a film on Sufi saints in India.

After a few instructions from Madeeha Gohar to a seated audience at Alhamra, the play, in connection with Ajoka's 20th Anniversary, opens with a group of followers carrying in Bullah's funeral bed. The then mullahs of Kasur, shown standing in the court, declare his burial 'na-jaiz' for living a life of a kafr.
Set in the eighteenth century, the 2 1/2 hour play without an interval, looks back into the life of Bulleh Shah (1680-1758); how he becomes Shah Inayat's disciple and is forced to leave his hometown, Kasur. And against all odds, he continues his search for truth.
His sittings with khusras, Muradi Begum - a prostitute and the downtrodden, who later became his followers, comes as a rude shock to the so-called clerics of the religion. Time and again they pass fatwas and declare him an outcast. Sarfraz Ansari outplays his character as Bullah. Throughout his rendition of Bullah's kafis is imposing.
It should be noted that the era shown, not much different from today, is one of political disorder, decline of the Mughul Empire and civil rebellion. Bullah saves the life of Banda Bahadur Singh who is out to avenge the blood of his family. He persuades him to stop the insanity and preaches him tolerance. The Sikh is moved by Bullah's manner and they meet again towards the end under similar circumstances. While Bullah is told to leave Kasur, Singh is caught and taken to Delhi.
The tide is against him when the intolerant Nawabs severly criticise him for his obsession for music and compel his murshad to give a fatwa on his qawali. The mullahs come out truly exposed when they misinterpret Bullah's statement "Mein illah waan" (meaning I am immature) as Mein Allah waan. This is quite reflective of our times where mullahs point fingers at others to cover their misdoings.
Two narrators who double as Bullah's devotees, Sona and Chandi in the play continue to impress the audience. It has moments of supreme devotion laid out side by side with scenes of inhumanity and ruthlessness. Probably what makes the play all the more interesting and uncluttered are the sets and simple costumes. Bullah's brown malung gown symbolises his bond with the commonfolk. Shah Inayat's all white garb has a spiritual air about it while Bahadur Singh's blue kurta with a contrasting yellow belt goes well with his personality.
There is distinctive Punjabi twang in the dialogues uttered, somewhat difficult to understand in the beginning but then one soon gets the hang of it. The script is punctuated with beautiful kafis, notably, Bullah's whirling dance on Terey Ishq Nachaya.
Being one of Ajoka's best Punjabi play, written by Shahid Nadeem and directed by Madeeha Gohar, it has seen an increase in its following for the last five years. A must-see for all those who have missed it out in the past. And a chance to see Asim Bokhari and Sarfraz Ansari in one of their best performances.

REVIEW: The path of thorns
Reviewed by Saba Ekram
Amrita Pritam is no longer a stranger to the lovers of Punjabi literature. Her individualistic artistic approach in stories has placed her among the major Punjabi fiction writers of the world. So far her stories have been translated into 34 languages. Pritam like any versatile writer has avoided sticking to only one genre and has moves from one to the other. She has to her credit, besides short story collections, a number of poetry books as well as many novels. She has also written an autobiography wherein she is both reminiscent and reflective. Her views on art and literature find eloquent expression in the volume. She is the recipient of India's highest literary award - the "Gyan Peeth".
Born (1919) and brought up in Gujranwala, Amrita Pritam moved to India after partition, in 1947, to settle down in Delhi for good. Though based in a big city she writes mostly about village women. Being a woman herself she is painfully aware of the contradictory destiny of vulnerability and the ability to survive. She categorically repudiates in her stories - "Jungle booti", "Bou", "Trishool", "Gaanjay ki kali" and "Zari ka kafan" - the old and outdated customs still held true by the village society. She is critical of the society for not defining the woman's role in terms of community relationship. Amrita Pritam has clearly perceived the Indian woman's plight and portrayed her sufferings in the anthology, Satrah Kahaniyan, under review.
A young girl Angoori in "Jungle booti" suffers because she is married to an old widower chosen to be her life partner by her own father, while Guleri in "Bou" is the victim of her mother-in-law's conspiracy who marries off her loving husband, in her absence, to another woman leaving no option for her but to commit suicide by burning herself. However, Aghunya in "Gaanjay ki kali" is the new woman who makes her own decisions. She separates herself from elderly Rangilal, whom she was forced to marry by her father, and goes to live with a Punjabi youth, Hem Singh. But when she comes to know that he has a wife and a son back in Punjab, she leaves him too and despite her first husband's offer to again accept her as his wife, decides to go back to her old and lonely parents and looks after them like a son. The fire of biological need that she carries within her all along, all of a sudden cools down when she learns that she is going to have a child. She tells herself:
Mera Mard Abhi Paida Nahin Hua Hai. Jo Bacha Mere Ghar Mein Janmay Ga Wahi Mera Mard Hoga
The story is influenced by the "Nai Kahani Andolan" which was pioneered by Hindi writers in India in the early sixties. "Lutia ki chhokri" is yet another story written under the movement's influence. Charu the central character avenges her mother's death by killing the Maalguzar who wanted to rape her mother and on her refusal had got her killed by getting her thrown in a well. Charu too is an embodiment of the 'new' woman.
Amrita Pritam has artistically portrayed in her stories the agony today's woman is passing through in a male-dominated rural society of the subcontinent. Though the stories tend to raise a voice for a gender equitable society, there is no direct condemnation of the opposite gender.
Written mostly in narrative style the stories are free from plots and old formulas of the realists. They have more than one layer of meaning and some of them; for example, "Ek shahr ki maut" and "Aur nadi behti rahi", even reflect the labyrinth of the human mind. However, they do not pose communication hurdles; rather create gaps which are replete with possibilities. In the stories, Amrita Pritam's vision is both more profound and more vital - a quality that many of her contemporary fiction writers lack.
The book has been handsomely printed and it is reasonably priced.
Here is the link to the review: http://www.dawn.com/weekly/books/books16.htm
In the Dawn, there was also a detailed news about the death of Balwant Gargi.

Dulla Bhatti ji, could you post one or two short poems (romanized, if it is not too much trouble) of Amarjit Chandan. I am trying to get a feel of the different styles of modern punj poets/writers. Thanks.

Once again, I wish to clarify that Shiv's "greatness" isn't what I am discussing. I find him to be culturally significant and, my personal prejudices about his poetry apart, I cannot write him off as a poet no matter how hard I may strive. I thought I was doing something else - to look at Shiv without the irresistible impulse to fetishize that informs much of deification that passes off in the name of critical discourse. I am in no way trying to de-Shaivify Shiv's admirers. But , obviously I do not seem to have had much success in communicating myself clearly.

You are right about Tagore's age. But, then, what does age have to do with creative excellence? (Perhaps it does!) Rimbaud, the famous French poet, had finished his poetic career in early twenties. Keats and Shelley are other examples. Closer home Pash, Lal Singh Dil produced their finest work in their twenties as indeed did Shiv.

Sukhbir ji, I agree that he was not the greatest poet we had and he was no way a Tagore but I will say still he was a great poet of Punjabi. I also agree that he probably was not a great scholar of history, poetry or literature or arts. I am now a year older than what Shiv was when he died and I am still trying to figure out who I am. Who knows if he had lived a longer life he would have turned into something bigger than what we remember him for now. If I am not wrong most of Tagore's work that people admire him for today(like Gitanjali) was published when he was in his 50s I think.

In my view there could not be a clearer and categorical negation of Mr Wafa’s thesis of the so-called “Muslim” poetry than this couplet. This dissolution of the ‘self’ is more in line with Bulle Shah’s “Ki Janna MaiN Kaunn” than anything that Allama Iqbal may have attempted. The idea of ‘khudi’ is too assertive and too strong in Allama’s poetry – especially his “ShaaheeN” poems – for him to be clubbed with the Great Sufi traditions of either the Indian sub-continent or elsewhere. He comes across as simply too deeply steeped in the rhetoric of the self :

“It was the pre-Islamic poet-king of Arabia, the famous Imraul Qays, in the sixth century after Christ, who composed poems based on personal-feelings and 'experiences', a millennium before England produced its Shakespeare.” What about the personal experiences of, say, Kalidas (4th C AD) about two hundred years before the writer mentioned above put ink to paper? Such combattive statements are not only inconsequential but childish. For each statement made so assertively by the Mr Wafa, one could faithfully produce two to take the winds out of sails. I am also dismayed to note that Mr Wafa’s understanding of “Western” does not go beyond English poetry. Why pick on poor Shakespeare? Why don’t you remember Abelard and Heloise (France, 1079-1142); RabelaisFrance, (b. 1483) and Chaucer (English AD1340-1400)
; and Dante(Italy 1265-1321)?

Do we need to remind ourselves of a very strong pre-Christian poetic tradition – of Homer (Greek, 800 BC - 700 BC), Seneca (Roman 5BC-65AD), Virgil (Roman 70 BC - 19 BC), Sophocles (Greek, 496 BC - 406 BC), Aeschylus (Greek, 525 BC - 456 BC), Euripides (Greek, 480-406 BC) and many others. And one isn’t merely speaking of the great Epics alone. One is also thinking of the Greek tragedies, comedies and satires. There is absolutely no merit in the argument that the lyrical poetic tradition, the garden poetry and the genre of satire had its origin in the so-called “Muslim” poetry. How I wish the prestigious Dawn did a little editorial homework before letting such articles through.

Suman Ji and Rammah Ji. The Posting of the article on APNA’s website from DAWN did not mean that I endorsed its contents. Specifically, It was meant to generate some literary discussion on its controversial aspects, as Suman has precisely but appropriately pointed out the historical inaccuracy of the author about the evolution of lyrical poetry. Nevertheless, does that mean that we should out rightly condemn a divergent viewpoint. It is absolutely unreasonable and unwarranted.
In the afore-mentioned article, there are discussed some pertinent subjects matters which have close relevance to “Punjabi and Punjabiat” and unfortunately neither of you bothered to focus on them. For example, Arab, Turkish and Iranian ‘Mysticism’ (along with endogenous) had a lot to do in the formation of ‘Punjabi Mystical thoughts’, as expressed by our classical Punjabi poets. Also, there is vivid commonality of language, metaphor and very often symbolism to express mystical thoughts/messages. (Please keep a distinction between the orthodox religious mysticism and the humanistic mysticism of Sufis). Romi, Saa’di, Khiyaam (and Baha-ullah, the founder of Bahai religion) along with our classical Punjabi poets can safely be put under the latter category.
I am strongly against religious chauvinism and I have been very open about it. But “Religious Diversity’ is an undeniable reality. Hence, use of ‘Muslim Poetry’ would not be considered unreasonable. I would like to discuss this issue in detail, however, at some other time.

Rammah Ji. I am sorry that I did not know the new policy of the APNA’s management about not posting even articles like above. I did not receive your email regarding downloading InPage. Can you send me again? I will greatly appreciate.
Javed Zaki

Javed ji. What possible reason can there be to post on APNA this article from Dawn which is filled with falsehoods and self serving inaccuracies? Muslim poetry? Lyrical poetry a direct consequence of muslim influence? When you start with an indefensible premise you are bound to arrive at absurd conclusions like 'it is unthinkable that a muslim would write profane things so openly and publically' therefore what Omar Khayyam wrote is somehow (let us reflavor the toothpaste and squeeze it back into the tube) "muslim". It is a short, fast road from ignorance to irrationality.

From lyrical poems, to Qasidas, the true worth of Muslim poetry spans many traditions.

Many, who may have heard the names of Saadi, Hafiz or Omar Khayyam, know little about the excellence of their poetical compositions bequeathed to us, and the times they lived in.

Before the Renaissance burst upon Mediaeval Europe in the wake of the Muslim conquest of Constantinople in AD1463 poetry was considered profane and frivolous by the European court and clergy alike. It was the direct consequence of Muslim influence that lyrical poetry, distinct from religious poetry, took birth in Europe.

It was the pre-Islamic poet-king of Arabia, the famous Imraul Qays, in the sixth century after Christ, who composed poems based on personal-feelings and 'experiences', a millennium before England produced its Shakespeare. Imraul Qays wrote against Fate: "We are birds, flies and worms and yet bolder than ravening wolves. The roots of nobility reach deep into the earth, but death robs me of my youth ...." These lines remind the reader of Shakespeare's blank verse uttered by a tragic character in one of his plays: "We are to the gods as flies to the boys; they kill us for their sport."

While mentioning lmraul Qays and quoting his verses. it would be improper if a significant fact - the poetic genre of Qasida (or ode) - is not taken note of "The Qasida has nothing in common with the English odes ('Ode to the West wind' or 'Ode to a nightingale'). The Arabic Qasida was a long poem beginning with 'Tashbib', recalling the exploits of youth, meeting the loved one (wisal), then facing the agony of love and pangs of separation (hijr). It ended with the glorification of the poet's tribe or patron. This particular kind of poetry was peculiar to the Arab taste and talent.

'Political' as well as satirical poems originated during Banu Ummaya's so-called 'golden age' under Abdul Malik and Hajjaj. Al-Akhtal, the court poet, the leader of this genre, was outdone by his rival Farazdaq. It was only in the 18th century that satirical poems composed by Dryden and Alexander Pope gained recognition as poetry, proper, in England.

In 740 A.D., Abdul Malik's successor Walid II, reported to be not given much to piety, patronised drinking songs ( like 'Saqi Nama' in Persian). Adi Ibne Zayd, a Christian started composing such songs. An independent form of love poems was also introduced at this time to the Arab connoisseurs of poetry which were composed by Umar ibne Abi Rabiah. These love songs are different from the 'Tashbib' of the old Qasidas.

The Abbasid caliphs, particularly during Harun-ur- Rashid's 23-year rule (786-809 A.D.) particularly cultivated this form of poetry .In his time love poetry, composed mainly by the by non-Arab residents of Baghdad, became popular. Abu Nawas of Persian parentage, Marwan Ibne All Hafsah, a Khorasanian Jew, Khalaful Ahmar of Farghana and Abul Alahiyah, a Christian who later became an ascetic were famous poets of these lyrics.

After the sacking of Baghdad by the Mongol Horde in 1258 A.D., Iran came under Mongol rule. During this period under the Persian ruler Saad ibne Zangi, who recognizing Mongol authority retained his kingdom, the poet Saadi (d.1291), taking his name from his patron, wrote original works of a moralising nature of mingled verse and prose. The Gulistan (Rose Garden) and Bostan (Pleasure Garden) are still regarded as classic expressions of Islamic morality and ethical conduct. Half a century after Saadi, came the most celebrated of all Persian poets, Shamsuddin Mohammad Hafiz from Saadi's city of Shiraz. His 'Diwan' was first published in 1868 A.D. His poems centre on praise for nature's beauty , on flowers blossoming in spring, on the nightingale's song of yearning (like that of the English Romantic poets), on the joys of youth and the pleasures of drinking. These poems of Hafiz are the precursors of our extremely sensuous and secular love lyrics, or Ghazals. But they have been invested with a sacred significance and are admired by pious people as allegorical verses, their inner meaning being about not a physical love but about the love of the Creator - Ishqe Haqiqi.

Omar Khayyam (d.1132) lived and wrote before the Mongol tempest. Although a mathematician of great worth, his real reputation is based on his poetry. He composed his Rubaiyat, or quatrains, in Persian. These are witty, hedonistic wine songs preaching a carefree enjoyment of life. But even these quatrains are given a mystic meaning, as it was unthinkable that a Muslim would write profane things so openly and publicly.

But the greatest mystic (Sufi) poet of Islam, who wrote his Masnavi in Persian, although he was brought up in Konya, Turkey, was Jalaluddin Roomi, or Maulana Room. His Masnavi, or stanzas of eight verses (like Omar Khayyam's Rubaiyat of four-verse stanzas) is a masterly exposition of Islamic mysticism through fables, stories and metaphysical reflections centring around his main philosophical theme - the dissolution of the ego ('khudi').

He anticipated our own poet-philosopher Allama Iqbal, who acknowledges him as his source of inspiration.

Dr Madan Gopal's composition in question was sung for the first time at the prestigious Jawaharlal Nehru's 39th Death Anniversary Concert held at the Teen Murti Auditorium on the 27th of May 2003. The concert was telecast live on DD International and was extremely well received.The recording I have managed to borrow is from this concert and is not a proper studio recording. It exists on both DAT and simple audio formats. The concert has now been re-edited as "Bas Tu Hi Tu". I learn that this composition along with a few of his other recent works will soon be recorded separately in a proper studio. It will certainly be possible to upload the same at that time. In addition he has done two river songs - one on Beas and the other on Chenab - which are equally moving listening experiences.

Hello! Khushamdeed. What a wonderful site.It feels like there is no gate at wagah. When I read cheema with Muslim names I feel my cousins are there and longing to meet them develops in heart.
catch you later
Rab rakha

On launch of a new PTV channel, namely PTV National, i would like to congradulate all the Deewanas & Parwanas of Punjabi culuture. since this channel would be telecasting a wide array of programmes in the " indegenous languages of pakistan" including Punjabi.
With the launch of this new channel the cultures & languages of the land of Pakistan would get their long over due share of projection in media which they deserve. Finally some recogition granted by our official mandarins to the local & indegenous cultures of the land of Pakistan. It is a historic moment in the cultural history of Pakistan and this will usher in to a new era of brotherhood & national integration in the real sence.

Any chance you could convert Dr Madan’s new composition of Shah Hussain’s “Ghum Charakharda” in Raag Sohni to MP3 or Real Audio format? If that is possible, I will then request you to upload it to APNA web.

I am somewhat reassured by the succinct doubt you have expressed with regard to my rejoinder on Janaab Safir Rammah’s detailed essay on the life and poetry of Shiv Batalvi. This rejoinder, I may point out, was more an attempt at expressing my somewhat deviant views on Shiv (a project doomed to fail given Shiv’s awesome cultural reputation and an ever-growing, almost phenomenal, deification but then as they say the khalsa is not deterred by loneliness or failure so here I am holding on to my views like a perpetually losing warrior) than about convincing people vis-ŕ-vis the ‘greatness’ or otherwise of Shiv as a poet. In any case the onus of proving Shiv’s greatness as a poet – if that is at all a desirable goal of critical discourse and I do not think it is – falls upon scribes who proclaim his greatness to the exclusion of all else. Allow me to quote from their article the following sentence:

“Shiv’s popularity has now reached a point where ignoring it as a yardstick to measure the significance of his poetry will amount to a contempt of the collective mind of Punjabis.”

The view harbours an ill-concealed intolerance of the other. Even Commisar Zhdanov did not express himself so unambiguously. Popularity is not an amorphous monolith – it expresses itself differently through different recepients / consumers of the popular icons.

I would like to give here an example or two :

During a string of concerts given by the young anti-pacifist and pro-war Rabbi Gill recently, I was not a little amused when before embarking upon “Ik Kurdi Jihda Naam Mohabbat”, he would invariably begin by proudly comparing Batalvi to Tagore. For, this was not just a travesty but stark ignorance. Tagore rode the Bengali culture like a colossus: he was a poet, novelist, short-story writer, dramatist, essayist, composer, painter, choreographer, educationist, filmmaker, and a traveller – in short an astounding cultural phenomenon. Despite all this, he was not necessarily the most significant poet of his time. Jibnanand Das was a poet of far sharper and saturated sense of the land. His imagery was compelling without being esoteric… deeply emotional without being artefactual and primitive. In this sense, he had moved with the times without surrendering any of the Bengali resonance. Nevertheless Tagore was preponderant, spread all over culturally and comparable ever so mildly in his orientalist-utopian drive to, if anyone, Prof Puran Singh. But was there any sense in comparing our Batalvi with their Tagore? A pro-war, anti-pacifist Rabbi Gill singing Shiv with utmost feeling and dedication was a very strange happening indeed!

Recently, I also came across encyclopaedic entries on Shiv in which he had been compared to, for instance, Shelley by the likes of Duggal and Amrita. This took the cake absolutely. Now anyone who knows his/her romanticism ever so slightly will recall the political resonance from where the English Romantic Poetry sprang. Could Shiv ever conceivably write an Ode to Liberty? Oh, the pity of it all… !

And how much of this “collective mind of Punjabis” admire Shiv for his critically acclaimed masterpiece “Loonna”?

And, where would you place Shiv’s:

1. Mainu Tera Shabaab Lai Baithaa

2. Jaach Mainu Aa Gayee Gham Khaan Di

and many other similar poems seeped unabashedly in lachrymose sentimentality. I am not into a game of minimising the poetic persona of Shiv Batalvi. After all, he did capture the imagination of a certain section of the Punjabi decision-making class. But that does not necessarily make him a more significant poet culturally than say Sant Ram Udasi whose constituency of listeners is disinherited from the field of decision-making power politics. The same holds true for another poet from the Malwa belt – the legendary Rajab Ali. Even while sleeping, these two could not ever think of penning the two poems I have referred to above.

I have already expressed my views on the aesthetic layerings in Shiv’s poetry albeit ever so succinctly. I am in the process of, ever so slowly unfortunately, of doing a closed textual and cultural analysis of some of his better known poems. Hopefully, I shall have an article ready in about a couple of months. I do not wish to denigrate Shiv’s poetic genius – I am at pains to point out that I am fascinated by the cultural phenomenon that he was. If you read my rejoinder a little sympathetically, I am making an altogether a different point which has nothing to do with his “greatness” as a poet.

I must point out that personally I am very uncomfortable with poets who recreate their existential anxiety through a descriptive string : “JaaN oh Bot… ”; “Jaan oh chandri… ”; “Jaan Uddadi Badloti koi…” – like Javed Akhtar’s “Ik lardki ko dekha to aisa laga JAISE…” This, to me, seems like a falsification of one’s very personal experience. See, for instance, how the image expands in an experiential continuity in Gulzar. That for me is the hallmark of a poet. But then I am no arbiter in the matter of aesthetic taste.

Within critical discourse, one tries to eschew as far as possible the highly emotive and volatile domain of adjectives. ‘Greatness’, a measure as blind as the furies, functions mostly like a vaavraula or a tornado (or is it a cyclone?) and one should steer clear of such elemental energies unless of course one wants to fly in the eye of the big wind with an inexplicable desire to dare and self-destruct. One also has to put the matter of personal taste and preferences aside and look at a given cultural, creative phenomenon from as wide a range of critical/philosophical passion as is possible. The field of cultural memory is the other significant ground of reference. And as is evident, Shiv does not come across as a culturally insignificant poet. On the contrary.

And finally, these days I am completely overwhelmed by Dr Madan’s new composition of Shah Hussain’s “Ghum Charakharda” in Raag Sohni and set to Teen Taal. It is simply mesmerizing.

it was really nice to visit your site. in the time of chollera it is a cool breaze. keep the ball rolling. your audio collection has fascinated me much could i have this collection in pakistan or can u send me as this is very unique collection.
many thanks
zeeshan ahmed

A true Sikh school
Anirudh Gupta
Ferozepore
The school established with the help of funds by some Sikhs settled in different parts of the world at the birthplace of Guru Nanak Dev in Nankana Sahib has created quite a different identity for itself in Pakistan.
Students of this school, irrespective of caste, creed and culture are excelling not only in academics and sports, but they could also recite Japji Sahib, Sukhmani Sahib and other religious prayers with great confidence.
At present, there are 142 Sikh, 410 Muslim and around 120 other students belonging to weaker sections of society who are provided free education.
The school, which was established in 1999, has vast playgrounds, excellent academic results and above all, feeling of oneness and a spirit of secularism.
Mr Ajgar Bhatti, who is the Headmaster of the school, told the Sikh pilgrims who recently visited Nankana Sahib that all children in the school irrespective of religion and belief were taught Gurmukhi language.
Bhai Mastan Singh, Managing Director of the school said although there were eight government and 14 other private schools in Nankana Sahib yet parents feel proud to get their wards admitted to this school. He said the major financial assistance for the running expenditure of the school was being extended in the form of donations by the Sikhs living in Europe and some other parts of the world. He said six students had been selected for the MBBS and four for engineering course. He said that the motto of the school was based on the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev i.e “Kirat Karni, Naam Japna, Vandke Chhakna”. He expressed the hope that soon it will become one of the biggest schools in the region for which a master plan for its extension was being drafted.
Friends:
I copy this news story from THE TRIBUNE, the Englis daily of East Punjab. I did not know the existance of this school, I thought may be there are others who may not knowand might be interested in knowing that atleast there is one school in Pakistan where Punjabi is taught in Gurmukhi. Prem

In my rejoinder posted yesterday, a hurried response indeed, a lot of important points were left out. I am very very briefly posting some of these.

On the Question of Classical Influences

Here we need to understand two kinds of classicity – one which is specific to Punjabi literature and the other which has to do with the antecedence of classicity prior to the known body of Classical Punjabi literature itself. Thus we deal with two different periods of classicity – one which comprises quite directly the works of Baba Farid, Guru Nanak, Guru Arjun, Shah Hussain and possibly Sultan Bahu and indirectly, because of the inclusion of a large body of Bhakti poetry from outside Punjab in the Guru Granth, the works of Kabir, Raidas, Namdev etc. The other register of classicity, or rather proto-classicity, is the one which looks at Punjab’s cultural memory dating back to the Vedas, its encounter with Buddhism, the pre-Christian Greek literature and much else besides. In all these respects, both Harbhajan and Neki are way way ahead of Shiv. But, of course, with all the burden of classicity, you may still fail to create a soul-stirring poetic image. So I am not proposing this as an aesthetic canon. The naxalite poet, Lal Singh Dil, is an eloquent contradiction of such overwhelming adherence to classicity. He rises from the margins and rises glowingly. But in the case of both Harbhajan and Neki, classicity works seamlessly and wonderfully and brings to their work astounding depth of feel.

On the 60s in Punjab

60s also witnessed the largest diasporic move from Punjab to not only UK but to Canada as well. In a sense this was the decade of the great desertion – desertion as in the transformation of a green land into a desert. Today, as we turn around in utter surprise to look at some of the villages that have declared themselves collectively bankrupt and put themselves up for sale or villages that are haunted because of people who left en masse, we begin to reflect and seriously analyse the socio-economic fall-out of these culturally shifting spaces as a result of the Punjabi diaspora.

This was also the period of narcissism – the Green Revolution – only recently beginning to go sour with a rapidly shrinking water bed – having established Punjab as the granary of Punjab and gradually having put small land-owning farmers from Punjab under tremendous pressure demanding an ever increasing produce from the peasantry. This was also the time of the lure of new technologies: the tube-wells, tractors, the tyre-tube cart-wheels, the Jeepaas. And it was also the time of the chemicals such as urea and pesticides that began to virtually dope our fields. Punjab will have to be imagined a lot differently and without an aggressive machismo.

I am not overly dismayed if nothing of this – largely rural Punjab – finds any space within Shiv’s poetry. After all, poetry has a much larger and enduring life than the ordinary and mundane business of day-to-day lived. The point I am making, however, is that the 60s is far too complex a phenomenon to be facilely tucked away with self-congratulating one-liners.

On Shiv as a Postmodernist???

Finally, in their zeal to establish Shiv as a poet of our times, the writer duo invokes terms such as modernity, post-modernity, feminism etc. I am left not a little perplexed. I wonder what theoretic parameters the writes have in mind while using such loaded terminology. Who do they have in mind when, for instance, they use the term postmodernity: Jean-Francois Lyotard’s The Postmodern Condition; Fredric Jameson’s The Cultural Turn; or, Perry Anderson’s The Origin of Postmodernity? My humble submission is that we should resist the temptation of using these terms in a loose sort of oral tradition.

Sukhbir Ji,
With utmost respect I disagree with most of your "dissenting view" about the article that Safir Ji co-authored and in particular about the poet (Shiv) himself.Particularly when you make the statement ". Although Shiv’s poetry may be in the folk idiom, his constituency today is largely urban middle-clas" We all know Punjabi Society (Indian side) is a overwhelmimg majority of Middle Class,to say Shiv is only poular in a segment of middle class(i,e Urban middle class) is not true.If it was the way you believe, you would not see singers from folk singers(Surinder K,Deedar Pardesi)to the ones catering Urban middle class( Jagjit,Bhupender etc)sing his works.

Shiv was a poet of masses and thats what makes him so big.A poets appeal to masses can be judged by the type of poetry the popular singers of that time select.In Shiv's case,every popular singer of last 40 decades has sung him.On the contrary I dont see a gerenation of these artists from Surinder K to Dolly G. sing a single other popular punjabi poet,those you mentioned, with such consistency.

Definately Shiv is a "Critic's" poet,that can be judged by the response we get from the critics,who love to comment on him and discredit him.So in Shiv you have a poet who is popular with masses,popular with singers,popular with Critics who find time to critique his works.I wonder what else a poet needs to be big :-)Regards.

Sukhbir Ji: Another note: You are right about the term Glossary. In the published version, the correct term Bibliography is used. While making the web page, it somehow got changed. I have now corrected it. Elementary, isn't it? But thanks for pointing it out, and also that the copy editing was not the best.
Zaki Ji: I have been in touch with Mr. Kirpal Punnu over the last couple of years. He is doing a great job. The last time I checked his work, there were still some problems in transliterating from Gurmukhi to Shahmukhi. Once he overcomes these shortcomings, his software will be extremely useful. I know a couple of other folks who have also been trying to develop a similar software.

Mr. Kirpal Pannu of Canada has devolved a computer programme through which the txt in Persian Script can be converted into Shahmukhi. Some of the members in Toronto, who have attended Kalma Daa Kafla meetings, probably
already know about this. Mr. Pannu can be contact at his email given above.
The reply may not come readily as Mr. Pannu is currently in India in connection with promoting Punjabi Fonts.
Regards,
Pritpal Singh Bindra
*************************************
Pritpal Singh Bindra
Winner: '98 Akali Phoola Singh Book Awardee
Publications in English
Please visit
*************************************

Thanks for taking the time to first read the article and then write such detailed critique. The only reason I am writing these lines is my sense that you may be expecting a response. My thinking is that once a writing is published, it then belongs to the readers. The writer has no business to say any more about it. So, I have no desire to get into a debate. I do appreciate and respect your views.

By the way, the year in which Shiv received Sahitya Academy Award is mantioned twice - both times as 1967 - although, as noted, Loonan was published in 1965. This had confused me a bit too, but I had carefully confirmed both dates.

This rejoinder is not meant to hurt anyone. Its modest aim is to express a dissenting view. I may state that that I have the deepest personal regard for the excellent work that Safir Sahib has undertaken to promote Punjabi Literature and Culture

Rejoinder

These comments are in reference to an essay entitled Shiv Kumar Batalvi (1936-1973) – Life and Poetry written jointly by Mr Safir Rammah and Mr Manu Sharma for IJPS Volume 9, Number 2, July-December 2002. The authors begin by claiming to write ‘a reliable and coherent study of his life’ that would bring together ‘detailed review of relevant published material, by interviewing a number of his contemporaries and family members and by conducting background research on people and places and the social and literary environment that shaped Shiv’s life and poetry’. You further puport to ‘present an overview of Shiv’s poetry, highlighting its versatility and deep roots in Punjabi literary traditions’.

This, one would have thought, was an ambitious agenda of intent and required rigorous scholarship and undivided focus over a vast field of study. I must salute the authors’ courage in attempting to undertake such an enormous responsibility as manifest in the introductory agenda of intent. And now let me share, in all honesty, my sense of profound dismay at what I have just finished reading.

I begin, first of all, by complimenting the authors for preferring Ms Suman Kashyap’s translations to those of Sant Singh Sekhon’s rather staid renditions. Ms Kashyap has internalised Shiv’s work to a degree where it begins to in itself appear as an independent creative act while at the same time also retaining the resonant core of the original work. Kudos!

I would also like to state at the outset, lest I should be misunderstood, that Shiv is a highly fascinting cultural phenomenon though not necessarily a poetic genius of a commensurate significance as he is so often and definitely in the present case made out to be. But that is my view and I do believe it is a fairly complex one to be dismissed quite simply as either a Marxist vituperation (since I am nowhere near being a Marxist of any hue) or a case of the pseudo-Modernist’s cry of ‘sour grapes’. I do believe that it is possible to cogently argue from the positions of cultural historiography, literary histories and even aesthetics to show how overrated his reputation as a poet is. But once again this is not to detract from his significance as a performative icon in the public arena. To put him without any reflective effort alongside of the Sufi saints of Punjabi literature is, to put it mildly, unjust.

One does not have a major quarrel with the duo’s introductory remarks which are more in the nature of unabashed hero-worship. They do give an indication, however, that one should not expect any conventionally objective or seriously ideological or even idea-oriented discussion about Shiv Batalvi’s work in what is to follow. There is a hazy aestheticist insistence but the parametres of such aestheticism remain to the very end ill-defined and woefully underdeveloped.

The duo begin by invoking the 60s as “a turbulent decade of 1960’s”, a dynamic, exciting and controversial time for the youth around the world, who rose to challenge and redefine the established boundaries of politics, culture, literature and art of their societies’ but one which remained “primarily a phenomenon of western societies”. This is indeed a very facile reading of the period whose turbulence went a long way in changing the cultural histories and art practice on the sub-continent. In fact towards the end, the writer duo makes a bold and blatantly wrong formulation when they assert : “At a time when many of his contemporaries were looking towards the western and, in particular, the progressive literature from around the world to learn new techniques of writing poetry, Shiv Kumar Batalvi took his inspirations from the classical literature of his own land.” Shiv Batalvi’s inspiration from classical literature of his own land was nowhere near as profound as that of Dr Harbhajan Singh, Dr Jaswant Singh Neki or even Tara Singh Kaamil

It may be brought within the knowledge of the learned scholars, Mr Rammah and Mr Sharma, that the sixities in India meant many things – Vietnam, for one; the break-up of the Communist Party; the rise of the ultra-left Naxal movement – none of these had anything to do with western societies, either at a primary or a secondary level. The other ideas to invigorate some of the poets were the emergence of a new, free, postcolonial India – supposedly ushering in a just, equitable, socialist, democratic order. Nehruvian model of India’s leap into the temples of modernity was greatly inspiring for some and was blindly lapped up by a number of poets, photographers and filmmakers. The lead India took in establishing the movement of non-aligned countries under the collective leadership of Nehru, Tito and President Nasser and its avowed adherence to Anti-nuclear and pacifist ideology also resulted in the production of a lot of literary and other art work. The left’s disillusionment with the left-of-centre but largely centrist politics of the Congress was the focus of another strong literary drive. India’s colossal defeat at the hand of the Chinese resulted in the first definitive signs of the souring of the post-Independence romance. The unprecedented famines, the rise of coalition politics were other significant indicators.

In terms of popular culture, the era of Saratchandra Chatterjee’s & Dilip Kumar’s Devdas (which is where at least some of Shiv’s creative drive is traceable) had come to a decisive end and a new cinema of fluidity – road cinema, touristy cinema [local tourism in Shammi Kapoor; road cinema in Dev Anand; and, international tourism as in Raj Kapoor’s] – and cinema of strident patriotism - as in Manoj Kumar’s Upkaar, Poorab aur Paschim had taken over. In fact, it will very interesting to know what kind of film songs was Shiv Kumar singing while being a popular crooner in his college.

This was also the time when a transition from b/w to coloured photography was taking place silently.

At the level of creative writing, a miniscule section of university-based students and teachers were looking upto Jean Genet, Albert Camus, Jean-paul Sartre, Merleu-Ponty, Allen Ginzberg – TS Eliot (and yes, the correct spellings are E L I O T and not E L L I O T as you so self-assuredly persist with throughout your emotional paean) and WB Yeats and WH Auden having been forgotten long since. This is also the period when Eliot, Richards and Leavis are decisively banished from the field of literary criticism in Punjab. The new avatars on the horizon were all non-anglo-saxon savants such as Roland Barthes, Claude Levi-Strauss, Jacques Lacan, Michel Foucault, A-J Greimas, and later Derrida, Lyotard, Baudrillard. For the Marxists, the focus had similarly shifted from the classical Marxist positions to those of the Frankfurt School, Benjamin, Brecht, Della Volpe, Louis Althusser. The theoretically well-aligned critiques of Shiv Batalvi’s poetry are not as easy to ridicule as those the writers of this essay have tried to mimic. For instance, sentences such as “for some his poetry is an unwelcome distraction from the true goal of poetry as a tool to identify and expose the fault lines in the society and people’s reaction to them” are nothing short of trivialising the issue of critical discourse. We need to respect the history of our own critical discourse a little more than the writers of this essay seem inclined to.

And it is not as if, the entire gamut of critical reference is outside of the sub-continent. For instance, the earliest and genuinely indigenous modernist poet of the Punjabi language, Harnam, had absolutely no grounding in literary or cultural theory. He was as ill or well read as Shiv Batalvi was and started his poetic career with some highlycharged lyrics in the late 50s. However, there were two problems with him: He could not sing to save his life. And, he looked like an understudy of a bantamweight wrestler. But he too drank heavily. But, then, amongst the Punjabi writers in East Punjab who didn’t? Like the Bengali novelist Kamal Mazumdar, Harnam apparently severed an active linkage with what is passed off as the “authentic Punjab”, even if the river Jehlum never deserted his creative conscience. He declared Mohammad Ali, the boxex Pele and Maradonna, the footballers and even actress Rajshree to be his inspirations while openly making fun of the Urdu poetry. Once in a while, he would drop his defenses and speak of both Prof Puran Singh and Guru Nanak with irreverent passion.

Such was the 60s in Punjab. It was far far too complex culturally for me to exhaustively sum it up here.

And this is precisely why I am mildly amused by the duo’s attempt to create a highly romanticised and idyllicised image of Shiv’s village Bara Pind Lohtian in the undivided Punjab. This is what the French thinker Andre Bazin has described as the “mummy complex”. In their attempt to apotheosize Shiv Batalvi right from the tender age of 7 to 10, he is reported to be a malang or a wandering faqir. I am surprised that the writers have not invoked celestial configurations to herald the birth of a seer and a saint. And I am not getting into smaller issues of wrong translations of raas-dhaaris or the misspellings of shaidaai or shudaai and innumerable sic sentences.

And thus begins the process of apotheosis in right earnest. For instance, Shiv Batalvi is reported to have “extensively studied Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu and English literature. The fact remains, however, that all such claims about Shiv’s knowledge of English literature are not only exaggerated but largely unsubstantiated. The same holds true for his so-called ‘extensive study of Hindi poetry’. It all depends upon who the certifier is.

Likewise, the claim that “many who had listened to Shiv’s recitations of his poetry found it as one of the most memorable experiences of their lives” qualified further by Balwant Gargi’s – given to hyperbole as he was – description of the Guru Nanak Kavi Darbar attempts to instal Shiv in a large than life mould. That indeed is true. But let me also point out that, apart from Shiv Batalvi, there were at least two other Punjabi poets who could hold an audience of thousands into a mesmerized silence. These were the sarkari poet, the late Inderjit Singh Tulsi (the man who penned Beshak mandir masjid tordo for Raj Kapur’s Bobby) and the revolutionary Sant Ram Udasi (the authentic people’s bard who could sing his ballads at times for a gathering of 50,000). All three could sing and all three had their constituencies. Although Shiv’s poetry may be in the folk idiom, his constituency today is largely urban middle-clas; Rajkavi Inderjit Singh Tulsi had become resigned to his own success and chosen a path where he would earn lots of money and be forgotten; Sant Ram Udasi remained a poor bard till the very end and was murdered while travelling to Maharashtra. Needless to say that Sant Ram Udasi’s constituency is the subaltern and the unlettered, marginalised, deprived human being. I wonder if it would be right to say that sant Ram’s imagery springs from the kind of functional physicality that Shiv’s largely static and distantiated imagery does not. I am just wondering and not passing a judgement. It is quite clear that both balwant Gargi and Kartar singh Duggal had absolutely no time or taste for the likes of Sant Ram Udasi. Their judgement, to that extent, is inadequately based upon knowledge of how the folk idiom functioned on ground. I am raising this issue because it has been raised by the writer-duo have taken special pain to underline the importance of folk idiom etc in the effective dissemination and communication of their work to the people at large. How do we ignore a Sant Ram Udasi and pedestalize a Shiv Batalvi? That is the question. Furthemore we have to realize that their recitation needs to be further qualified as recitation in tarannum. Shiv’s non-musical recitation of his own poems was, for instance, bland and unimpressive. It should be understood that, even if it opens up a window for irresolvable misunderstandings, that the people who swooned over Shiv’s performances would qualitatively respond in much the same way listening to utterly spurious stuff from a Pankaj Udhas and ilk and that the college girls hysterical demanding the recital of a certain poem were not always moved by the reasons of poeticity.

The article that claims to be “a reliable and coherent study of his life”, completely ignores the nature of exploitative appropriation to which Shiv was subjected by the nouvau riche traders’ lobby of Batala and Amritsar. He was cruelly fetishized by them and bandied around as an object worthy of possession. This is were he was encouraged to drown himself in alchoholic stupor. Given his poetic sensitivity, there was no way he would encouraged an ordinary and normal relationship with them.

More importantly, however, disregarding Shiv’s involvement with alchohol as something inconsequential or dismissing it as something that appeared only towards the last part of his life is like weaving the ultimate yarn in the service of hero-worship. In Punjab, we suffer from selective amnesia when it comes to the consumption of alchohol and resist every attempt at stating “how much is too much”. Absolutely no point would be served by invoking “harsh criticism” of his poetry as the cause of his fatally plunging health. The kind of adulation Shiv enjoyed is unparalleled in the history of recent literatures of the world and he was nowhere near as harshly attacked as say, Mohan Singh or Harbhajan Singh by the ultra-leftists. And, Shiv wasn’t a weakling in any conceivable sense of the term….

Shiv Kumar’s shift to Chandigarh wasn’t as innocent as it is made out to be. It was a move consciously encouraged and supported by a number of his influential and well-connected friends. There is no way Shiv would have survived in a State Bank job where he was more of an absentee employee if he did not have support at the highest level.

It is most unfortunate that Amarjit Chandan should be making such a sweeping statement. It belittles the poetic genius of both Harbhajan Singh and Shiv Batalvi. There are hardly any similarities between the two even when one looks at Harbhajan’s lyrical poetry which starts somewhere around 1955 and first appears in Laasaan in 1957. His third book Adhraini appeared in 1962 but the lyrics were mostly written over a period of 4 years – 1957-1960 - and there is no question of him having been influenced by Shiv as your “famous Punjabi poet and critic” – one Darshan Gill - seems to suggest. Having confirmed with Harbhajan’s family, I wish to put it on record that the family is not aware of even an “acquaintance-level” relationship that may have existed between Harbhajan and the “famous poet-critic”. Much to their dismay, they seem like many others, to be almost embarrassingly unaware of Mr Gill’s literary eminence. It should be borne in mind that Harbhajan was nowhere near as popular as Shiv – which incidentally does not, contrary to what you may like to propose as an aesthetic yardstick, make him a lesser poet - and had obvious difficulties in getting his work published. In fact the cover design of Adhraini designed by the legendary Pakistani painter Abdul Rehman Chughtai remained with the poet for well over two years before the book finally made it in print. …

Quite interestingly, the duo states that “Shiv’s popularity has now reached a point where ignoring it as a yardstick to measure the significance of his poetry will amount to a contempt of the collective mind of Punjabis.” This is almost like a false aesthete’s threat – “if you are not with us, you’re against humanity at large” It is like the VHP claiming to represent all the Hindus; and the admirers of Shiv Batalvi’s poetry menacingly claiming their right to represent “the collective mind of the Punjabis”. This is a scary prospect., to say the least…

I am offering my comments very briefly since the rejoinder has become too long and I have to rush to work.

The duo’s formulation that “in both the Sufi and Qissa poetry, utmost sacrifices and willing acceptance of death, as the pinnacle of one’s struggle for an ultimate goal, are celebrated” is highly debatable formulationIn reference to Shiv’s “Bhatthi Waliye Chambe Diye Daliye”, they assert that “the dominant mood of the poem is very similar to the spiritual journey of a Sufi travelled in stages where each stage of spiritual purification demands new sacrifices.” This is highly debatable analogy. A sufi’s journey is woven around at least seven stages of remembrance – zikr - and these are in no way comparable as the highly emotional interpretation of the poem being offered here seems to suggest.

Their next formulation that “most of the classical Punjabi poetry was written in a lyrical form with the intention of singing. Many of the classical Punjabi poets expressly set their lyrics in well-known ragas of Indian music: refutes their earlier thesis of ‘communicating in the folk idiom with common people.’

They next opine that “classical Punjabi poets extensively, and in the case of many important poets exclusively, used the imagery, metaphors and symbols that were taken from everyday life and scenery of rural Punjab.” Just one example from Shah Hussain – his sub-continental poem Saaloo - is enough to refute this formulation. Puran Singh is another example : even though he speaks with such intense passion about Punjab – far more intensely than Shiv, if I amy add – his poetry also carries resonances of a much larger topography that he spiritually experienced while travelling through Bengal, Gorakhpur or even Japan

Their belief that “the classical Punjabi poetry is a panorama of the whole vista of common and popular culture of Punjab” is too vast and unverifiable. No poetry can make such a pompous claim – “the whole vista is far too dynamic to be reducible to any single field of poetry – classical or otherwise.

And finally, in the name of critical discourse the two writers only make a long inventory of village artefacts to which Shiv’s poems refer. This, if I may point out is only indexic excitement, for it judiciously eschews any discussion about how in Shiv’s poetry the aforementioned list of “things and words” or even images is phenomenologically enlivened and reinstalled except as fetishized exotica.

The poetic discourses are constituted in terms of indexic, iconic and symbolic layerings. The last two at least work through a process of condensation and displacement; through metaphor and metonymy. In Shiv’s poetry, the discourse barely moves beyond the first level of description. No wonder that Shiv’s poetry is held out as an apt example of a string of static images without any inner growth.

And why do the writers use the word Glossary instead of Reading List or Bibliography?

Why do they give both 1965 and 1967 as the years in which Shiv won the Sahitya Academy award which as per the rules and stauette of the academy is given only once in a writer’s lifetime?

Sarian hee punjabian nu mere wallon pyaar bhari sat sri akal. bahut hee khushi hundi hain koi apne virse dee gall sun ke padh ke.
I love our culture very much. So in my pursuit for gettng knowledge about the ancient history and culture about punjab, i hav started writing a little document. In this document I want some help from all those who can about the early punjab sikh clans like those of Charath Singh, etc. the leaders of teh ancient "misls"!!
I hope to get a good response.
rabb raakhaa,,
pritpal

A quick note to music buffs...on the new hindi movie chalte chalte there is a wonderful Punjabi song by Sukhwinder Singh, its called lagi vee naa gayi, nibhai vee naa gayi..he does a great job singing it. Also 2 albums to check out, Surjit Khan - Kikli Paake, and newcomer from Bathinda area Rani Randeep - album:Ishqe dee maar!

Persian-Scripted Panjabi Qa'ida
The question of Panjabi Shahmukhi book of alphabet (word itself being derived from Alfa, Beta, or Alif, be, te) has come up quite often (to me Shahmukhi is an absolutely inappropriate and misleading misnomer for the Persian script. Whether one likes it or not, Panjab and Panjabi roots are deeply connected with Persian. The word PaNj Aab - five waters - the root for name PaNjab is Persian).
Historically, in the Panjab, Panjabi was and still is written in the same script as Urdu, Persian, (pre-Kamal Turkish, and to some extent Arabic). There is an understandable and good reason for an absence or not-so-wide-spread availability of a Qa’ida containing a set of a Persian scripted purely Panjabi alphabet.
When a child goes to school in Pakistani Panjab, as has been traditionally over centuries, he starts with the first book, known as Qa’ida. It lists all letters, their shapes – disjoined and joined forms of letter, etc. So by progressively going through his/her school, the child masters a written form of the language, of course with rules of grammer, structure of sentences, tenses, etc. Although the main focus now is Urdu (it is well known fact that Urdu appeared on the scene much later), as stated above, he gets a bonus of reading and writing at least two other languages: Panjabi and Persian (the Perrsian script used for Urdu has letters to cover the sounds of Persian, Arabic, Hindi and more). This alone is a powerful reason to stick with Persian script for Panjabi, cultural, religious, and historical reasons, also being as important.
Persian/Urdu script does not have letters for some Panjabi sounds, e.g., the Persian/Urdu alphabet cannot differentiate the soft and deep L sounds (of course there are several other similar examples). Panjabis have come up with additional signs and symbols to remove deficiency of letters in Persian/Urdu to cover those special Panjabi sounds. Although it has been slow in evolving, it is not a standard yet for Panjabi. With people showing an elevated level of interest, specially now, it may come to standardization soon.
Any alternative to Persian script for Panjabi is equally deficient in more than one ways.
So here is a situation: there is a general feeling in Pakistani Panjab that since most Panjabis are already well versed with Urdu/Persian/Arabic alphabet, there may not be a need to have another separate Panjabi Qa’ida. Obviously not all agree with this assertion and it is becoming clear that scattered efforts towards consolidating Panjabi alphabet in Persian script will come together pretty soon.

SAFIR RAMMAH JEE:
I join Akhlesh and Cheema Sahib in support of your project including some financial support and wish you success.
AKHILESH JEE:
I admire your effort to learn Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi. I hope some people on this website can give you advice to get a primer to learn Shahmukhi. My feeling is that you may be looking for Shahmukhi instead of Urdu Primer.I know you can get from India or Pakistan "Kaita" as we called them to learn these scripts. Somebody else probably can give you better advice on that I am sure. Most of our friends from west Punjab I am sure have these helpful tools to learn Urdu. The script used in Urdu is what we are calling Shahmukhi. Good Luck and again congratulations on your efforts.

I wonder how being emotional or even “merely emotional” is detrimental to the growth of a language. (Incidentally, this bit about Punjabi being accepted as the second language in ‘Urdu speaking’ areas is a bit doubtful. In fact there are no such Urdu-majority linguistic-zones anywhere in the world unless of course we take up the artificial linguistic enforcements such as one witnesses in West Punjab.) Languages grow variously and for different reasons. Any fundamental primers on sociolinguistics and psycholinguistics would bear adequate testimony to this simple fact. There are too many power-equations at work.

There is no point in becoming unnecessarily upset at the so-called “non-development” of a particular language in a particular field. Efforts have been made by the Kendriya Hindi Sansthan under the aegis of the Union Public Service Commission of India to “manufacture” an authentic ‘scientific’ and therefore, by a peculiarly convoluted logic, ‘modern’ lexicon for the Hindi language. The results are there for all of us to see. Excessive Sanskritization of Punjabi in East Punjab and Arabo-Persianisation in West Punjab have anot always yielded very pleasant results and have, in fact, more often than not, created an entirely avoidable cultural schism amongst people from the same ethno-linguistic topography.

If our languages are not so spontaneously amenable to the development of the scientific discourse, it may have not a little to do with how our particular cultural topography has historically evolved. Given the specificity of our own evolution as a cultural, political and social economy, the encounter with the scientific discourse seems to have historically by-passed us. While this may be some cause for concern, it has not stopped the language from developing in other directions vigorously. I daresay even at the risk of being provocative that Baba Farid is way ahead as a poet than say Langland; Shah Hussain so impassioned that poets like Donne and Spencer fade miserably in comparison; Sultan Bahu far superior to both Dryden and Pope; and, most provocative of all, Bulle Shah far too better than either Shelley or Byron. And notice I haven’t yet mentioned the Sikh Gurus. Punjabi 20th century poetry – especially from East Punjab – is simply too powerful to be cast aside out of a self-defeating colonial sense of inferiority.

And now about the oft-repeated and inspired news about the death of Sanskrit. There is no gainsaying the fact that this language does not exist as a tool of human communication anywhere in the world and that the All India Radio’s daily news bulletin in Sanskrit, to put it ever so mildly, makes little sense. But undying and continued announcements of Sanskrit’s death defy logic. Linguistically, at least, Sanskrit has become the base of a large area of linguistic subsumptions extending from Bengal to Gujarat; Punjab to Karnataka. In fact, it is only now that we are beginning to witness the day-today-lived-life of Sanskrit. In any case, if Sanskrit was such a self-enclosed language as is so erroneously made out, it would have been impossible for the language to continue to come out with such a large body of significant literature that continued over not just centuries but across millenia. The evidence is weighed heavily against the kind of sweeping generalisations Mr Sidhu seems to be making.

I want to wish you and APNA the very best in establishing a permanent institution in West Punjab for the promotion and development of Punjabi language there. In my opinion the introduction of Punjabi as the medium of education in schools will perhaps be the most important mile-stone to cross.

I have a suggestion for you. I have only recently begun to learn our mother-tongue, i do this by attending Punjabi classes at a Gurdwara near my house (I just cant seem to learn Punjabi from my parents). They have been kind enough to provide me with numerous text books on the Gurmukhi script, infact, im surprised at how many Gurmukhi text books are available. The books i use are 'Panjabi Primer' by Dr. Gurbakhsh Singh, and 'Panjabi for Beginners' by the Sikh Missionary Society, U.K. These books are specifically designed for quick learning of Gurmukhi by English speaking people. For my suggestion, I have not come across any text books which teach Shahmukhi Punjabi, and i would very much like to get one. Would it be possible for APNA to publish text books for the learning of Punjabi in Shahmukhi? I understand this may be very costly, and might not be a priority, but i would just request that some consideration be given to the possibility of doing this.

Anyway, regardless of whether a text book on Shahmukhi is published or not, i am interested in making some donations to help make this Punjabi language institution in West Punjab a reality. I cant offer much, but a little each month i could possibly do? You will have to advise me on that.

APNA's website is really wonderful!
I have added it to the Writers Forum as a permanent link.
Please explore the following links:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Writers_Forum/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Writers_Forum/messages
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Writers_Forum/links
Regards. Munir

Rammah Ji,Great effort in posting the article on Shiv K Batalvi.A very balanced overview of the poet's turbulent life and works.I wonder if all his works can be bought in various volumes in a published hardcopy form in Gurmukhi?Can anyone guide me to the right direction Pls.Regards

Respected PS Kahalon ji,
I'm research scholar at Punjabi University Patiala pursuing PhD on the topic of "Teaching and Study of Punjabi as a Second language"(an Applied Linguistics perspective). Here I'm tring to answer your questions:
1 Basically all languages are same for the purpose of communication but if any language seems much compatible for science&technology the only reson behind it is development of that particular language.
2 Sanskrit a dead language now because it loses its communicablity.
3 Punjabi, Gujrati, Marathi.... are modern indo arian languages but unfortunatly they are not developed as a language of knowledge&communication. So these are losing rapidly in this age of technology.
We should keep in the mind that language could 't survive if it does not fulfill all kind of cummunication related needs of its speakers.
for more wait for my article on www.5abi.com or write me on gurit@rediffmail.com
Gurmeet Sidhu
91 9814 000 383

In response to your thoughts about Punjabi language I have some questions for you or anybody else who cares to comment. I am not knowledgeable about languages and hence any response will be appreciated.

1- Are Hindi, Urdu, Bengali, Marathi, Gujrati etc. are more languages of Science and Communication than Punjabi?

2- Is Sanskrit a dead language because it is not a language of Sciece and Communication or because only certain people were allowed to read and write Sanskrit?
By the way Science languages are Latin and Latinized Greek I think and to some extent Sanskrit ( Pineapple's Scientific name is "Annanas")

3-During my studies in USA I had to Pass German and French tests. My German teacher recognized me as a Punjabi and told me that you should not have any trouble with German because of similarity in German and Punjabi words and its Grammer or sentence structure. He gave me a list of words which were quite similar. Finally he said if a german word sounds like a Punjabi word, you can guess its meaning.

4- Can you please discuss the role of Politics in Punjabi language development if any.

These are just random thoughts for your consideraton. Thank you in advance for your response.

Suman Ji,Theek keha TusiNI like Shiv's poetry sung by most singers,including Bhupinder Singh.I think Bhupinder and Jagjit Singh's voice is more suited for works of Farid,Bulleh Shah etc(my personal view).On the other hand I like to listen to Shiv's poetry in a more forceful/emotional voice.Shiv's own voice works well,but it is on a the higher side of "forefulness/emotioness".

The singers whose voice would match with the "dard" in Shiv's poetry would be somewhere between Bhupinder/Jagjit and shiv's own voice, like Mahinder kapoor or Narinder chancal.Regards

We are merely emotional about Punjabi
Punjabi is a language of 120 mn people living in 117 countries in the world. In Punjab (Pakistan and India) it’s a mother tongue of majority people. With the efforts and great struggle of Punjabi lover’s it has have the status of Second /foreign Language in some Hindi, Urdu and English speaking areas but as per language development is concerned, we are merely emotional. Language, literature and culture are equally important for the development of any language but for Punjabi language our approach is not balance. Our much emphasis is on literature and cultural development. The science of language (Linguistics) is still ignored. So Punjabi is losing rapidly as the language of science and communication in this age of technology. We should keep in the mind the example of Sanskrit. Why it’s Dead Language now? Think over; Are we quite sincere about the development of Punjabi as modern language? For more contact: Gurmeet Sidhu, Research Scholar, Pbi.University, Patiala
(91-9814 000 383) gurit@rediffmail.com

Sardarz. I wish that Bhupinder had sung more Farid (these six minutes are amazing) but have not found any recordings so far. I would recommend that you listen to Shiv Batalvi by Bhupinder and Mitaali. It is a selection of verses from Loona and very beautifully sung.

Saeed bhra ji thanks for sending the books. I got them over the weekend as I opened my mail yesterday. I have browsed through it only randomly and they look beautiful. Thanks also to Prem ji for time and effort for mailing them to me.

Dosto,It has been a long time....Glad to be back to
be a part of this forum,so full of life :-)I had been busy at personal front all this time,but was reading the discussions on and off.My most often stop was at "Kalam Baba Farid" under "Selected Punjabi Music" on APNA home page the one sung by Bhupinder Singh,wish it was 60 minutes long not six.Does anyone know if Bhupinder Singh has sung any more of Baba Farid's work, if so where can one find/buy it.Its amazing how Farid Ji's words of 8 centuries ago still hold such relevence in this modern world.

Dosto,It has been a long time....Glad to be back to
be a part of this forum,so full of life :-)I had been busy at personal front all this time,but was reading the discussions on and off.My most often stop was at

I will appreciate, if some one will post mailing address of novelist and poet from Pakistan: Fakhar Zaman from Lahore. I have to send him my novel: 'Alarm Clock'.
Thanks.
Sukhinder
Email: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
www.knowledgeeye.net

Friends!
Some people had been facing problem in listening to music with old versions of Realplayer. It is fixed now. You can continue enjoying music on APNA website with your old versions of Realplayer.

Here are three poetic translations from Dr Madan Gopal Singh with notes appended at the end. The original Punjabi text of the three poems may be found in the APNA library.

Sukhbir

Saloo(Translation of Shah Husain’s famous Saloo a 16th century poem)

Wear this saloo lightly o soul
wear this saloo lightly

Priceless is my saloo
Many a lady came
went away commending
my saloo

I put out my saloo in the sun
The woman from the neighbourhood
had come
to borrow my saloo
I couldn’t say no,
It had to go

From Kashmir did my saloo begin
Arising far away from its intimate core
knifing its way through snow
It was determined to go

From the kernel of Gujarat
had my Saloo arrived
Strange fears of the first night
had clouded my thoughts
lest I should make a brazen sight

Saloo carried the grain of Multan
God alone knows
the mystery of man
In the master’s embrace I slept on.

My saloo had come from Bengal
There was no one
No one at all
Whom I could relate the pain in my heart

And there also was another
A saloo created
out of knick knack
She must have been needy
Or simply slack
For this was all she had

You all possess such wondrous saloos
Of one magical tree
so many endearing branches are you
There isn’t another like you.

The colours of this saloo will fade away
To this world we shan’t return
another day
Let’s walk away
Together, singing in celebration

My saloo, though is woollen
I’ve heard of a dark one
In Vrindavan he stays
I choose to go a separate way

Says Husain the weaver
Fearsome is the night
that’s descended deep inside
the forest
Was God so indifferent ever?

Saloo - usually a piece of red cloth - was a gift given at the time of the girl’s marriage. It was a kind of an exclusive bond between the daughter and the mother and was kept away in “magic casements” – the large steel trunks – found in almost all Punjabi households and opened only once in a while even as excited children gathered around to peep into a universe hidden away from their curious and often mischievous gaze.

Siharfis(siharfis from Sultan Bahu, 17th century Punjabi Sufi poet)

I begin from Alif
my letter to Allah
a little seed, a tiny sapling
planted in my heart
With the water of fullness and voidMurshed nurtured and saw it grow,
into wondrous colours and shapes
it rose, blossomed forth
before long its fragrance
captured my soul
May the mad wise murshed live long
For he’s the one who started this song

Arise o moon,
The stars’ been in remembrance since long
Arise and brighten the streets
where talent precious as rubies
is lost
Arise that no wayfarer
may feel so lonely so distraught
as to crumble beneath the weight of a straw
Says Bahu: don’t frighten us with your claps
we've learnt to fly and fly away fast

Faith unbroken, a step forward
that's how the God was found
With the memory of the beloved
each pore of my being resounds
In the wisdom of the hidden
and that of the revealed
the sound of ‘hoo’ repeats
the lesson of compassion
Those alone would be called faqirs
whose graves would live in celebration

Siharfis - widely practised mode of writing where each poetic unit opened with an alphabet rather than a fully evolved word.

ToonNa(Translation of Ik ToonNaa AchaMbaa GaaNvaaN Gi a poem by the 18th century Sufi poet from Punjab, Bulle Shah)

ToonNa - is a mode of writing that may be traced back to the writings of Hazrat Amir Khusrau. Within our cosmology – a TooNna is normally associated with an installation created to bring the object of desire under an unquestioning and often irrational influence of the creator. The installation is more often than not a feminine artefact created out of kitchen spices and bears testimony to the women’s desperate need to extend the area of her influence and power outside of the kitchen space.

Hey, how is everyone? Can anyone give me some information on Punjabi singers from WPunjab? Such as Humaria Arshad (Does she perform in Punjabi or Urdu??) Or can someone please provide me a link to a site which has information on Punjabi music from Pakistan?

Im interested to know how popular Dhol beat and Bhangra are among Punjabi singers from Pakistan, or if Punjabi music is even popular at all in WPunjab.

Kahlon Ji & Saeed Ji: I have also received the books. Thank you. I greatly appreciate it. Last week, we had a get together to remember Balwant Gargi. I took copies of the books there and gave a copy each of "Great Sufi Wisdom-Waris Shah" to APNA's old friends and supporters and Punjabi payare Dr. Rishpal Singh and Balwant Multani Ji.

Friends: Vijay Kapoor Ji has sent me, through Ruchi Kapoor, Munawar Sultana's old song: Rubb Khair Kare. You may hear it by clicking on the following link:

Prem Singh KahloN jee, Bhai Zaki Jee and Sadhu Binning Jee confirmed the great service you performed for the distribution of the books. Thanks a lot. I am compiling a book on Great Modern Punjabi Poetry and I am plannig to publish it. I would love to include all the famous (ever-green) peoms from all the corners. As Amrita Preetam, Ajj aakhaaN Waris Shah noo; Shiv Kumar BaTalvi, Maey nee Maaey, merey geetaaN de naynaaN wich; Sain Akhtar, Allah Mian Thale aa; Faiz, Rabba Sachyaa tooN aakhyaa see; Prof. Mohan Singh dee Chup; Anwar Masood, AmbRee; NikyaaN nikyaaN nazmaaN Ustaad Daman diyaa (Dullah Bhatti jee ne jo likhyaaN), Surjeet Patar, Lagi Nazar Punjab nooN; Sharif Kunjahi, paaN*ee bharan panhaaryaaN; Munnoo Bhai de Mushk BooTee; Dr. Laeeq Babree dee AseeN Likhan Waaley; and many others. I know all the poets and specially our Punjabi poets try to write ever green poems but here my main object is to provide some material to our people of Punjab who are in the complex of Urdu and hate Punjabi. It must be one wonderful collection of poems and I will sell it with no profit no lass basis as I have done wonderful experience by publishing books on Great Sufi Poets. Its pages will not be more than 112, very good paper quality and its sale price at my shop will not be more than Rs. 25. So dear frieds, I would love to recieve any good proposal from you in this regard. If you think there are some more good poems please tell me. I will include your names in the list of compilers. That would be our collective job. Rabb saanoo bhalyaaee de kammaaN wich ik doojey dee madad karan dee taufiq devey.

Shahida Jee. If you open APNA’s website, right under the pictures of Punjabi classical poets, you will find some good articles on Punjabi in the historical context.
Anyhow, according to some outstanding Punjabi scholars Punjabi language originated in India in the very remote past. They claim it to have evolved in close proximity with other local Indian languages. After the conquest of India by Muslims, the influence of Persian and Arabic have been far reaching.

Saeed Farani Jee. I received both books. It is very encouraging to know that within a short span of time 2-3 editions of each book have been published. Congratulation again. Keep up the great work. KahlooN jee tohada vi bohat bohat shukria.

While having discussions with some friends about Punjabi language, the question came up that how old is Punjabi? I would be glad if some one can answer that and also briefly explain history of Punjabi.

Hello Dulla Bhatti Ji:
Unfoturnately I am unable to read Gurmukhi (or Shahmukhi) and I feel very handicapped by this. I will love it if someone can put it in Roman transcript.
Also by chance do you have any audio rendering of Ustad Daman's poetry/songs. If yes then I would love to have it.
Thanks

Hello Sukhbir ji/Suman ji/Javed ji:
I think the song in question "Rab khair kare.."has been sung by Munnawar Sultana. The song and the music is really melodious and lilting. I have it on a cassette and will see if I can put it on the web or otherwise can send a copy of the same.
Thanks
Hello Sajid ji:
Kudos for collecting all of MTM's poetry and putting it on the web in Roman script!!
Thanks for making it easy for people like me to read and enjoy it.

Prem veerji,
Thanks for reading the article. I love Kavishri the same way you do. One of the main reasons I miss melas to this day. Once in a while we see some Kavishars here from India in Gurdwaras, but their performace is limited. I read that lately there has been some movement to revive it in Toronto by some Kavishri lovers. Hope it gets attention of others. I would love to convert that article in Shahmukhi but my skills are limited to only reading Shahmukhi. Let me make another request to Gurmukhi-Shahmukhi convertor gurus to help us on this.:-)

Dulla Bhatti:
Veer Ji: This past week end I read complete write up about Babu Rajab Ji.Your Gurmukhi write up is much more extensive and very moving. Since most of APNE veer Jis may not be able to read Gurmukhi, is it possible to write that part in Shahmukhi or Roman or English for the benefit of our friends on APNA? I know it is a lot of work.There is a young man here who migrated with his parents from Nabha at the age of 7 or 8 and was singing Kavishari in our get togethers. Yesterday I gave him print out of Babu Ji's " Dard Punjabi Boli Da" and ask him to sing it next time we meet.Having spent 12 yrs in Patiala State ( Probably the heart of Kavishari)I had develped a strong liking of Kavisharis at the "Melas". Probably the only reason for going there besides eating sweets. Thanks for your posting about Babu Ji who was not known to me but your write up was very moving, I wish I had met him personally. Probably our family benefitted from his work in Canal Colonies, but his contribution to Punjabi language as you said benefit us all. Thanks again.

Sukhbir ji. the first song - rab khair kare. I heard it years ago (from someone who used to sing on all india radio) and have always tried to find some info about it. Thanks to you! Its musical composition is just lovely - have you or madangopal ji heard it or does he sing it? I have it as the following:

Lo the God has
blessed our courtyard
In the night
the drenched beloved
in a measured walk
on his path
we spread out our being
and the rain comes dancing down
rhythmically.

(a loose translation of a Punjbi song from the courtesans of Heera Mandi, Lahore

The clouds crowd in
and the shadows thicken
Inside the shadows
There’s a sheet of water
On the sheet
unfolds a wondrous play
a quivering sun in myriad shapes
And all around the the scent of rains
and all around the scent of rains

(a loose translation of a Punjabi poem from the oral tradition – attributed to a wandering artisan)

This the moment of clouds’ moistened youth
Breaking against the crags of Aravali
Blown into bits, into shreds
Breaking the spell of the sky,
its sense of the self, its pride
Spilling across the body of earth
a rainbow line
thus begins to move the caravan of mountains
thunderbolts pounce to free the fettered feet
once again
the rivers reach out to the deserts
Keeps pouring down the ambrosia to all pain
Incessantly
Such rains O God!
Such rains O Poet!

Jaki ji has presented an editorial which has raised a curiosity that probably the literary people can address to. While reading a poem, novel, article, editorial etc., especially related to poverty / religion/ history, what really touches our heart. Is it the DUKH of the event /process or it is the game of words that author plays?

Third possibility:
I guess we all live we our own DUKH and when we find some thing OUTSIDE (audio/ and visual) which matches with our inner DUKH, we stick to/ appreciate it. Otherwise very many literary pieces go un-noticed. What do U people think why the great writers or writings are so dear to us?

DAWN:Karachi, 11 May
While talking about the SAARC writers' conference held in the Maldives, I think I should be content to talk about the writers, poets and fiction writers I met there, leaving the rest of the affair to Munnoo Bhai. He is better equipped to understand and talk about the political intricacies such conferences bring in their wake.

Foremost among the writers was Kamleshwar, known as a distinguished Hindi fiction writer. But for me, he is an Urdu writer who writes his Urdu in the Nagri script. His recent work is a novel titled Kitney Pakistan (How many Pakistans?), now transliterated in the Urdu script.

I will talk about Kamleshwar and his novel later on. At the movement, I am in the grip of Dr Indira Goswami's Pages stained with Blood.

Writing in Assamese, Indira has won recognition on an all-India level. She also enjoys the status of a scholar. Her research work on the Ramayana has been published under the title Ramayana from Ganga to Brahmaputra. At present, she is associated with the Delhi University as head of the Department of Modern Indian Languages and Literary Studies.

Her volume Pages stained with Blood had initially appeared to me as an innocent portrayal of the city of Delhi, where she appeared intending to paint Delhi "in broad swathes of colour the days and lives of the Mughals and the British Raj." What a lively description of the city in the form of a diary. I least expected that soon this description of the city will turn into pages stained with blood.

But here, let me make an interjection and refer to the story read by Ajeet Cour in the fiction session of the conference. No, it was not fiction. She was narrating in a factual way the harrowing experience she, along with her daughter, had undergone during the days of the Sikh carnage that had come in the aftermath of Indira Gandhi's assassination.

While listening to her, I recalled the series of bloodbaths Indian Muslims have had to pass after Partition, the latest being the Gujarat carnage. I was reminded of a line from Ghalib:

"Woh hum sai bhi ziyada kushtai taigh-al-sitam nikley"

When, after the session, I communicated this feeling of mine to Cour, she narrated to me her encounter with a Sikh lady from Jamia. She told me that her Hindu landlord drove her out under the fear that if a Hindu mole comes to know that here lives a Sikh lady, they will attack the house and burn down the whole building.

She then made a hectic search for some new accommodation. No Hindu landlord agreed to accommodate her for fear of the rioters. Then she went to Jamia Nagar. A Jamia lady listened to her woeful tale and agreed to give her house on rent to her. Then, she added: "It is now that you have come to face this situation. We are faced with this situation since the day India won freedom."

Now I come to Indira Goswami's Pages stained with Blood. It has been presented in the form of a diary written during the year 1984. The writer is seen roaming the city and recording in her diary what she witnessed and what she heard from the people she met during her wanderings. But slowly, she feels drawn to some queer character who are Sikhs living in slums and leading a wretched life. Her concern for them makes her actually aware of the unhappy situation Sikhs in the city find themselves in because of the events in East Punjab. The Golden Temple had been ransacked and the Sikhs were troubled.

The situation culminates in the assassination of Indira Gandhi. It leads to the carnage of Sikhs and the writer is a witness to terrible scenes.

"Some twenty-four Sikhs have tyres put round their necks and are burnt to death in broad daylight. Many are killed in police firing.... There is no true account of those deaths and bodies are lying about in roads and gutters."

"My eyes fill with tears as I stand in front of the gurudwara.... The gurudwara has been reduced to ashes. The granthi pierced with a trident and the half-burnt copy of the Granth Sahib lies in a corner of the veranda."

The writer witnesses harrowing scenes of this kind and turns back. "I come back home and scrub the bloodstains on my floor. In fact, there are no stains, but I keep seeing them all the time. And, at times, I feel I am standing on a chunk of burnt flesh."

Most of what has been recorded here may be seen as an eyewitness account of the happenings which came as an aftermath of the murder of Indira Gandhi. But, on other occasions, we are not very sure as to how far it is factual. The writer may not be factual all the time. But she is truthful throughout. If there is fiction, it has been fused in with a subtlety that we can hardly draw a line between the factual and the fiction. That is what goes to make it a novel, a genuine piece of literature.

Indira Goswami portrays her real Sikh characters with the pen of a novelist. These characters, the insulted and the injured, appear symbolizing the sad plight of the Sikh community. Indira Goswami in depicting this plight is genuine, without being sentimental.

From this account, one may draw conclusions about the fate of minorities in India. But we need not gloat over it. Rather, the situation invites us to a self-examination. After all, in Pakistan, too, minorities are not in a happy position. With the rise of terrorism, their situation has gone from bad to worse. The only difference is that this sad situation has failed to find an Indira Goswami to probeand record it.

On taxing my memory, I could remember only one novel by Muzaffar Iqbal titled Inqita, which centres round a persecuted Ahmadi character. But it could not attract the attention of the critics. The novel went almost unnoticed.

Hello Safir Ji:
Read the article by Dr. Afzal Mirza about Ustad Daman. Is it possible to put some of his poetry on this web (in Roman script)? I am particularly curious to read the poems referred to in the article.There is also a reference to a song written by him for Punjabi film "Mangti". I am wondering if this song along with some others if sung are put in the audio section. This way we will be honoring a great poet.
Thanks

APNEO:
I needed to send some books that I received from Saeed Bhara Jee to Sadhu Binning in BC, but I could not find his address from APNA membership. If some one knows his address, please send me by e-mail. Dulla Bhatti Ji and Safir Rammah Ji's are on the way. Waiting for Dr. Zaki's address.Rabb Rahka

One of my friends asked me this question. If any one knows answer of this question please do that favour. Would you please so kind as to send me some information / electronic matter on "Jagga Jat", who was he? where was he born? The folk tale surrounding him is folklore or a halo of myth?
Here is the e mail address of my friend in UK: jehankhan@hotmail.com

On re-visiting the site after a long-long time, I am pleasantly surprised that Sukhbir Veerji missed me (alongwith a few others). Tusi yaad keeta…asi hazar haan. Though I think that the remembrance may owe its genesis to some residual ‘khalish’ generated during my last foray onto the forum. I recall an old Punjabi saying….”Jatti jhas kiradi naal, te boonda ragde jhari naal”. Believe me, by not visiting the forum for so long, I, too, missed your intelligent and incisive compositions on Punjabi, Punjabiyat and many other diverse issues. Having said that, it would be unlike me if I do not add that, on many occasions I find your postings ‘exhibitionistic’. Well, you have it….you flaunt it, who the hell am I to object. I state, what I have, because I believe that ‘intelligent’ should try and graduate to ‘genius’---and ‘achiever’ should ‘actualise’. A Sufi singer with great musical talent can hold an audience in a trance, he (or she) may not himself (or herself) be spiritually evolved. Brahm is within, Theatre performance enthralls - without. Sorry…no preaching…only sharing of thoughts – accept it or reject it.

One very useful article to understand the nonsense language policy of this unfortunate country where we, mute amd mum creature, live:

Apologising to the Bengalis

Hafiz-ru-Rehman (The News 10.05.03)

Now that Pakistan is on the way to mending fences with
India, and the ultimate objective is to solve the
Kashmir tangle with the United States acting as honest
broker (one hopes it is really honest), we should also
think seriously about improving our relationship with
Bangladesh. Politically, diplomatically, economically,
the relationship is all right but it is in the domain
of emotional repair that initiative needs to be taken,
because sometimes it is more difficult to placate an
estranged brother than conciliate a political enemy.
Bitterness can be a terrible hurdle.
I was not a great admirer of Mian Nawaz Sharif as
prime minister, but once he said something really
wise. For the first time in the 25 years after 1971, a
popularly elected leader of the country, or a military
ruler, publicly stated that the military action in
East Pakistan had been a grave mistake. But he went no
further. In his place I would have expended all my
powers of persuasion to convince my people that we owe
a national apology to the people of Bangladesh.
After I had brought them around to my way of thinking,
I would have taken a large representative delegation,
including the three service chiefs (if they had
condescended to obey my orders) to Dhaka, and there,
in an address in Paltan Maidan, formally and in a
spirit of genuine contrition, sought the Bengalis'
pardon for thrusting our imperialism on them which led
to their breaking away from us in 1971.
If Japan can do this and seek the forgiveness of the
Chinese, an alien people, for the barbarity and
inhuman treatment they inflicted on them in the
Sino-Japanese War, why can't we adopt a similar
gesture towards a people we still claim are part of
our common psyche and our so-called Islamic character?
Even the Queen made it a point to visit Jallianwala
Bagh and pay homage to those who had died at the hands
of her soldiers.
In Bangladesh they say to visiting (West) Pakistanis,
"We still love you, but we couldn't live with you in a
master-servant relationship. You do not realise it but
you effectively started the alienation process when
you killed our young men for preferring Bengali to
Urdu. We could have given our lives for Pakistan, but
not for our masters in West Pakistan."
Incidentally, they also say, "And we are told you have
found a scapegoat in Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. How is it
possible for one man to break up a country by just
saying 'idhar ham udhar tum?' Even if he had not
uttered these words, and even if you had agreed to
make Sheikh Mujibur Rahman prime minister or
president, we couldn't have stayed together. You
people are incapable of changing and getting rid of
your superiority complex."
Some years ago a paper by Dr Tariq Rahman on the
Bengali Language Movement had revived old memories
dimmed by time and taken one back to those early days
when the people of East and West Pakistan had common
aspirations and the new state was an exciting
adventure for both. There must have been something
with me as a Punjabi that I used to look at Bengalis
as equal partners in that adventure. Much as I
admired, respected and even loved the Quaid-i-Azam I
was taken aback by his declaration in Dhaka that
Bengalis were welcome to use their language in their
provincial affairs but the national language of
Pakistan would be Urdu and Urdu alone.
I am no historian, but my reading of the Pakistan
story tells me that all the political personalities
really close to Mr Jinnah were those who could not
conceive of any other language sharing the honours
with Urdu. He himself could hardly speak Urdu, and he
certainly couldn't read it. (Take it from me, he
couldn't. His mother tongue was Gujrati.) He thought
his colleagues from the UP and Punjabi were speaking
the truth when they told him that Urdu was the
language of all those Muslims who wanted Pakistan.
Those from East Bengal who were close to him, like
Khwaja Nazimuddin for instance, themselves spoke Urdu
and did not truly represent the feelings of the
Bengalis.
Anyway the fact remains that, over the years, the
fight for Bengali gradually turned into a fight for a
Bengali homeland and a fight for a greater share in
the government of the country. It also became a demand
for a more decent and sensitive attitude from the
Western brothers who were incorrigible in considering
themselves a cut above the Bengalis in everything --
in looks, in brains, in physique, in the manner of
their dress, in the way they spoke English and the
stylish-way in which they lived.
They viewed the Bengalis with contempt (don't let
anyone try to tell you they didn't.) The simple
life-style of the Bengalis, strong emotional
reactions, stress on their own brand of nationalism,
were anathema to West Pakistanis, and these Brown
Sahibs made no
secret of their feelings. It was imperialism all the
way, and worse than the imperialism the Bengalis had
seen in Englishmen since it came from their so-called
brothers. How many times
did I not hear these words, "These fellows only
understand the danda, the stick." The civil and
military Punjabis and the elite among the
Urdu-speaking officers had discovered a colony and
were enjoying every minute of ruling over it.
My wife used to call the local Cassandra, predicting
dark happenings only. This was because I had told her
in the early sixties that if we carry on like this the
Bengalis will go their own way in ten years. I don't
claim prescience. It was plain commonsense, and any
idiot who kept his antennae in working order without
letting them be jammed by sentiment could have seen it
the way I did.
The subject is fit for a book, and I am glad that
books are being written on it. The most recent is a
voluminous history of the language movement by
Professor Anwar Dil and Mrs Afia Dil who now live in
the States. I wonder if those who were responsible for
alienating the Bengalis ever get to read them. I have
my doubts. Most of us still hold on to our colonial
ideas and make them evident in our dealings with
Pakistan's other peoples also. We have learnt no
lesson.
History cannot be overturned. Whatever has happened
cannot be undone. The hatred of years, aroused by our
treatment of the Bengalis and our snooty attitude
towards them cannot be transformed into love. But a
formal and sincere apology may do wonders. As it is,
what can the Bengalis' love give us now, and what
purpose can it serve when we stand separated? But a
formal and sincere apology from former brothers may
turn the tide of animosity. Let us not forget that,
apart from our complexes about ourselves and about
them, they are better off now, for their language
really unites them as a nation. And look at us! Maybe
this is our punishment from God.
The writer is a freelance columnist

Last year I had a chance to visit Taj Mahal, Aagra. The same day I composed a Panjabi poem on Taj using the immortal ‘toal’ of Heer-Waris-Shah. The poem transliterated in Roman letters appears below. Although it is in Panjabi, some words may be unfamiliar to some Panjabis. I have added meanings of some words so that all can enjoy the composition.

Punjabis are open minded, open hearted, willing to learn and teach, try to create a amaicable society, and to mend fances with others, to ask all to be reasonable, genrous and be giving.
Punjab was, is and will be the melting pot that will accept any and all into its arms.
Poetry in pujab is the best in Indian subcontinant as it produced all great saints as poets who surpassed likes of shekspear.
We the pujabis should take an oath.
to hold honour the first.
to search and apply the truth
to be brave, faithfull and truthfull
to be humble, polite and civilised
to be God fearing, God trusting and apply God's law
To fight if war is imposed bravely with respect for life, property and other creations
To continue to stand up against bullies, tyrrants and crackpots
to uphold good for humanity at heart

Punjabis are open minded, open hearted, willing to learn and teach, try to create a amaicable society, and to mend fances with others, to ask all to be reasonable, genrous and be giving.
Punjab was, is and will be the melting pot that will accept any and all into its arms.
Poetry in pujab is the best in Indian subcontinant as it produced all great saints as poets who surpassed likes of shekspear.
We the pujabis should take an oath.
to hold honour the first.
to search and apply the truth
to be brave, faithfull and truthfull
to be humble, polite and civilised
to be God fearing, God trusting and apply God's law
To fight if war is imposed bravely with respect for life, property and other creations
To continue to stand up against bullies, tyrrants and crackpots
to uphold good for humanity at heart

asslamo-e-alikum,
a very very happy new day from punjab to all of the punjabi friends and also to all other people on the planet.i have nothing to say because people like me found a new meanings of life by the means of this web site and thats all due to the hard work of people living millions and millions of miles away but they proved by making this web history that they have the heart of punjab still beating un their bidies.
thanks,
may god bless you all
allah hafiz
peerzada syed muhammad sibghatullah shah
islamabad pakistan

Patiala, May 9
Trendy short-hair styles and new fashion trends have not only sounded the death knell for the world famous parandi making tradition of the city, but have also forced hundreds of its karigars to eke out a living by making rakhis besides going in for embroidery work, for which they are paid a pittance.

Parandis, nalas and juttis were what Patiala was famous for, says a shopkeeper dealing in parandis. He says while the traditional nalas have disappeared, now even the use of parandi has become limited as it is usually used as an accessory during wedding ceremonies only. “But even at weddings only the bride or her closest friends want to wear parandis”, the shopkeeper said adding that they usually found buyers during the marriage season.

The production as well as the sale of parandis has come down to 20 per cent of what it was around 10 years ago, says Vicky Bansal of Shyam Parandi House situated near the Quila Chowk. Neelam Kumar of Khanna di Hatti says kaleeras were now catching the fancy of youngsters during weddings. He said as kaleeras were more intricate and fancy these sold well during the marriage season.

Shopkeepers traditionally dealing in parandis may be able to deal with the fall in demand by selling other products, but for the karigars who made these parandis, it means the end of an era. “There was a time when shopkeepers used to vie with each other to give us work”, says 80-year-old Surjit Kaur of Kumharan Wala Mohalla near the Quila Chowk. But now, she said, things were such that karigars were literally begging the shopkeepers to give them some work. She said the families that were earlier engaged in parandi making were now producing rakhis of different kinds for traders.

The income of entire households of Kumharan Wala Mohalla, Jattan Wala Chauntra and others who were engaged in parandi making has taken a dip every since the decrease in the sale of this traditional handicraft. “Now we sometimes get an order to make specially designed parandis using tilla (gold wire) otherwise we are dependent on small time work assigned to us by shopkeepers to earn a livelihood.”

A visit to the Kumharan Wala Mohalla and Jattan Walan Chauntra revealed that almost entire family of these karigars was engaged in thread work. Almost all women and young children are doing this work to supplement their income. Prem Kumar said an average worker was able to earn around Rs 10 to Rs 15 per day by going in for the present embroidery work, including rakhi making. “The wages may be low, but beggars cannot be choosers”, he said adding, “at least we have some work at present. During the monsoons the workers do not have any work at all”.

While changing lifestyles have heralded difficult times for the parandi makers of Patiala, there could be some hope for them, says Manmeet Singh, a social worker. He says with almost every household engaged in embroidery work in some areas of the city, a society could be formed which could provide work and buy it from these out of work parandi makers directly. He said there was still a large scope for selling parandis outside Punjab as well as abroad. The karigars can also be engaged in making of other traditional handicraft items which could enable them to earn a better livelihood, he added.

Asslam-o-alakam,
I am a poet.I inspired the punjabi shakespeare Hazrat Syed Waris shah.I want to read the whole books of Waris Shah. Please give the oppertunaty to read the books of hazrat Syed Waris shah.I read the only heer.I want to read the more book of Hazrat Syed Waris shah.
Muhammad Yasin Butt

I happened onto this site after doing a search for the Punjabi language. As a teenager I had been taught that Urdu is the language of Pakistan and Hindi of North India. I later came to learn that when spoken the two languages are intelligible and very similar. I also learned that Urdu had it origins in the area around Delhi and Lucknow and that in the what is now West Punjab, Punjabi was the native language and Urdu was only the second language. I was disheartened to learn that the Punjabi language was not being utilized. I am a big enthusiast when it comes to languages of the Subcontinent. I love the way the Punjabi language sounds and really enjoy the Punjabi songs that are on this website. As a non-Punjabi or Pakistani I have great respect for the great Punjabi poets regardless of their religion. I would like to give support to the APNA org as a non-Punjabi and would like to emplore you to keep up your goal of giving Punjabi language the proper place it deserves among the worlds great languages

Saeed Farani Jee. Thanks a lot for your nice comments on Kafi. I am sorry to inform you that due to some important personal reasons I had to postpone my trip to Pakistan this Summer. Now, I plan to visit around the 2nd week of December - after the Fall semester. I will inform you about it.

Friends
Re-expressing my respects for MTM. Last time my heart wrote it and this time it is my mind. So I may not fully express myself. MTM's creations touched my heart many times and his demise left me speechless and wet-eyed. I never thought that I would ever be moved for somebody from NET community. But the news beat me squarely.
Bade Shauq se sun raha tha jamana
Tum hi sau gaye dastaan kehte kehte
I extend my sincere condolences to MTM's family and all those who feel grieved by his demise. May be a gazal by Mir won't be too off the mark to express his departure...

I am very much saddened by reading the news of MTM Ji's untimely demise. Very hard to believe and breaks my heart. Anyone knows where to send condolences to his family? I was impressed by his posts and his poetry. Cannot say much about his poetry - I am not a poetry critic - but can vouch that he had a big heart who didn't say it only to impress other people and he truly loved human beings of all colors and shapes. Some months back when a person pretending to be APNA Moral Police started a campaign against me for my chosen lifestyle (I am a lesbian) MTM Ji was the only one who wrote me a beautiful e-mail letter and consoled me advising me to ignore the narrow mindedness and low mentality of other people. He said that love and respect for fellow human beings no matter how different in color, race, religion, lifestyle, is most important ethical value. People who have not learned this are morally handicapped and need our prayers. He explained there are many people who are so impressed by their own qualities that their glitter make them blind. That is why he said he gave a lot of value to humbleness. I lost his e-mails with the closing of my hotmail account. It meant a lot to me that he cared for the feelings of a stranger who he realized was deeply hurt. He must have touched the heart of many many people in his life and some who didn't deserve his attention and prayers. I pray for his soul and for his grieving family. Bushra Khan.

Human beings come in all colors and shapes. Here, I am not talking about their external color, I am addressing their internal color. Appearances can be very deceptive, but the internal color when solid and clean radiates a special aura that is very obvious in human writings. Some depict that by being very passionate, some do so by being very "khara" - straightforward and some have a special way of delivery that one can connect with.
I have read MTM frequently in the early days of his web postings. His verbiage in Punjabi Poetry was beyond any doubt one of the best I have ever come across on the cyber space.
Last year, when I started writing some thoughts on SAWF on "October - The Month of Awareness" I received a very kind response from MTM. One of his siblings was recovering from cancer and I volunteered to exchange some information from the American Cancer Society, an institute I have great regard for. Mainly, for it educates women on health issues and creates awareness and I consider supporting any such initiatives my obligation vs. an extra-curricular. His sibling received the information in Pakistan, but he shared his concern on the lack of information on women's health issues in Pakistan.
The result of sharing this information was profoundly moving and honoring. One fine morning, I got an email stating that he reciprocated the good gesture by offering prayers on behalf of my parents and me at Khanae' Ka'aba - The Holiest Place for the Muslims" and distributed dates amongst the poor. Since it was the month of Ramazan any kind of charity in that month has a special significance in the eyes of God - I was extremely touched by his magnanimity.
Aside from that, he also sponsored me for the Walk by contributing a generous amount towards the cause. And, this is what the world needs today!
Human Goodness by actions.

Outstanding work on Harbhajan Singhs poetry. The set-up, the translations and the ease with which one can go back and forth between any script of choice is a joy. Would'nt it be extraordinary if all literature were available in such a format?

Ajay Sharma: Due to a technical glitch, the Discussion Foruim program was not wroking properly yesterday.
I didn't notice it till late yesterday and fixed it promptly.
Any comments submitted during that time were either not posted or got deleetd.
Please do submit your comments again.

We are merely emotional about Punjabi.
Punjabi is a language of 120 mn people living in 117 countries in the world. In Punjab (Pakistan and India) it’s a mother tongue of majority people. With the efforts and great struggle of Punjabi lover’s it has have the status of Second /foreign Language in some Hindi, Urdu and English speaking areas but as per language development is concerned, we are merely emotional.
Language, literature and culture are equally important for the development of any language but for Punjabi language our approach is not balance. Our much emphasis is on literature and cultural development. The science of language (Linguistics) is still ignored. So Punjabi is losing rapidly as the language of science and communication in this age of technology.
We should keep in the mind the example of Sanskrit. Why it’s Dead Language now? Think over; Are we quite sincere about the development of Punjabi as modern language?
For more click on
http://www.badhni.com/article(panjabi)gurmeetsinghsidhu.htm
Or contact: Gurmeet Sidhu, Research Scholar, Pbi.University, Patiala
(91-9814 000 383)

We are merely emotional about Punjabi
Punjabi is a language of 120 mn people living in 117 countries in the world. In Punjab (Pakistan and India) it’s a mother tongue of majority people. With the efforts and great struggle of Punjabi lover’s it has have the status of Second /foreign Language in some Hindi, Urdu and English speaking areas but as per language development is concerned, we are merely emotional.
Language, literature and culture are equally important for the development of any language but for Punjabi language our approach is not balance. Our much emphasis is on literature and cultural development. The science of language (Linguistics) is still ignored. So Punjabi is losing rapidly as the language of science and communication in this age of technology.
We should keep in the mind the example of Sanskrit. Why it’s Dead Language now? Think over; Are we quite sincere about the development of Punjabi as modern language?
For more click on
http://www.badhni.com/article(panjabi)gurmeetsinghsidhu.htm
Or contact: Gurmeet Sidhu, Research Scholar, Pbi.University, Patiala
(91-9814 000 383)

I just browsed through this forum after months and
came across the sad news of MTM's passing away from reading your post and also on SAWF.
It's indeed a shocking news and I do not think anyone would play such a silly prank.
Death is not a joke.

May God rest his soul in peace. He was indeed a gifted poet with a great
command on his verbiage.
I do not know if anyone ever felt that but there was a deep sense of sadness in his poetry.
He was a very sensitive poet and missed his late mother a lot.
He used to send his articles for review and there was this kharapun that was very obvious in his interactions.

He was also one of the kind sponsors in my last year October's walk where you also
pitched in. I never inquired, but I do not think he had any family in Jeddah. I think his
immediate family was either in Pakistan or in the US.

I guess the end of life reminds
us that we are not meant to be around for very long. That understanding is also a big part
of accepting what life is in a nut shell.

APNA member list used to have phone numbers and e-mails on the list for all members. It does not have phone numbers any more. Safir ji, I wonder if you have the phone number where he lived in Jeddah and may be try to call and confirm and see if we can get in touch with someone from his fmaily or friends.

That is indeed shocking news and a great loss for APNA cyber community, as well as for Punjabi language. Last year, I had a chance to talk to MTM Ji over the phone a couple of times. He was such a gentle soul that carried with him a rare air of goodness in his writings and personal contacts. I do think that since the news has been on the web for a couple of days and has not been corrected, it may very well be true. I have his brother’s e-mail and have written him for confirmation. I will let everyone know as soon I hear from him. Here is picture from the other website

Hello Suman Ji: I got this information from www.sawf.org site. MTM was a regular contributor to that site as well. It is hard to believe that he is no more. Only two days back I read his story "Do Mushaqati Haathh (Urdu)" on that site. A really poignant and touching story. It is appropriately said "Banda chala janda hai per yaadan reh jadian ney"

I'm deeply saddened to hear about the passing of our friend Moizullah Tariq Malik. I was always comforted by his peaceful presence whenever reading this board. He always remained unaffected by whatever may be going on...continuing always to share his songs and poems. A peaceful, gentle spirit who truly cared about people. God bless his soul.

Mallik was a really good guy. I can't believe he is no more. A very sensitive soul and a damn good lyrist. He really knew how to play with words and create wonderful songs. I remember on many occasions in the past couple of years when we were all steaming off aruging he would post a geet and try to calm us down. We will miss him deeply. Condolensces to the Mallik family. May God bless him with peace and courage to the beloved ones to deal with this loss.

This is very, very sad news about MTM ji. Do you have any more information Vijay? Did you know that south Asians are among the highest (in the world) at risk for heart disease? There are a number of physician/scientists who have done research on this subject. It is either genetic or our diet.

MTM ji has enlivened many of the conversations on this forum with his sweet songs and poems. He will be sorely missed.

Here is a sad news for APNA Org members. Moizullah Tariq Mallik ji, a regular contributor to this web, passed away due to cardiac arrest. In his passing Punjabi literature has lost a shining star. MTM's sudden demise is an irreparable loss for the literary society as a whole. His contributions both in Punjabi as well as in Urdu were gems. May his soul rest in peace and God grant his family courage to bear this tragic loss.

This is how the nightingale of contemporary Punjabi poetry, Amrita Pritam describes at least one aspect of Waris Shah's immortal tale of Heer Ranjha. Amrita's own poem has made a deep and lasting impact on the Punjabi psyche in our times.

But I have a question or rather a series of questions regarding this part of the poem.

1. Did Waris Shah ever establish Heer as the dhi of Punjab in his rendition?

3. Is Heer Ranjha a poem with a tragic vision or is it a transgressive celebration of love and life?

In my opinion, it is important to keep at least a basic framework of interpretation vis-a-vis our cultural texts in some sort of a focus if we wish to eschew false sentimentality. And my quasi-provocative statement here is that in the light of the above, Amrita's celebrated poem displays a somewhat flawed reading of Waris Shah.

This is how the nightingale of contemporary Punjabi poetry, Amrita Pritam describes at least one aspect of Waris Shah's immortal tale of Heer Ranjha. Amrita's own poem has made a deep and lasting impact on the Punjabi psyche in our times.

But I have a question or rather a series of questions regarding this part of the poem.

1. Did Waris Shah ever establish Heer as the dhi of Punjab in his rendition?

3. Is Heer Ranjha a poem with a tragic vision or is it a transgressive celebration of love and life?

In my opinion, it is important to keep at least a basic framework of interpretation vis-a-vis our cultural texts in some sort of a focus if we wish to eschew false sentimentality. And my quasi-provocative statement here is that in the light of the above, Amrita's celebrated poem displays a somewhat flawed reading of Waris Shah.

Sukhbir, Shahid and Safir jee. According to late Asif Khan Jee, the popularity of “Heer” enticed various poets to add their own poetry into the original collection of Waaris Shah. However, in the beginning, the tradition has been to write the name of the contributor against a sha’er to identify it from the poetry of Waaris Shah. The intention must have been to ascertain a certain level of recognition as a poet through sharing in the popularity of “Heer”. Anyhow, latter on the procedure of identifying non-Waaris Shah poetry was ignored by the commercial publishers and it became an integral part of “Heer Waaris Shah”. Rammah Jee has rightly pointed out the vague authenticity of the ‘baNd’

Doli chaRhdiaaN maariaaN Heer chikaaN

In his article Asif Khan Jee has also pointed some other non-Waaris Shah poetry in Heer [PuNj Darya’s special Issue on Waaris Shah, 1969(?)]. I

That is all Waris Shah says about his motivation of writing Heer. What I reproduced in my original post may well be an after thought on the part of Waris Shah. But what we now know from the work of the master, he certainly wanted to expand the horizen of those readers who wanted to or had that bend of mind. I acknowlege that without that piece, Heer is still the best. In his work, he does touch on pretty much every aspect of human endeavor, including some material that in today’s politically correct environment would be considered inappropriate. It is his all-rounded and comprehensive approach that has distinguished his work among several others written in Panjabi, Persian, Hindi, etc, on this love story. In the preface of Heer compiled by Dr. Mohammad Baqar (and published by Pakistan Panjabi Adabi Board in 1988), late Mohammad Asif Khan under Pehlee Gall wrote:

Dear APNA friends, just go through this review of The Dawn, Karachi on Khushwant Singh's new book: Khushwant Singh makes a fervent plea for separating religion from the state in India to put an end to the communal madness in that country. As our numbers multiply, so do our problems. I am convinced that the suicidal rate of increase of our population has contributed to the rising communal tension in our country. There is terrible congestion in our cities and small towns, where millions live cheek by jowl in filthy and trying conditions. Resources are scarce and there aren't enough jobs available. Naturally, tensions build up at the slightest provocation. Tempers are frayed and explode into violence. Instead of going for the person against whom you have a grievance, it is easier to gang up with members of your own community and go for those who are not. Communal groups, of every community, have always taken advantage of this. The difference now is that Hindu communal groups are trying to unite the Hindus - 82 per cent of the population but traditionally divided into several mutually antagonistic caste and linguistic groups - to gang up against a common enemy. This common enemy according to them is the 'foreigner', namely the Muslims and the Christians who must be forced into a subordinate status or hounded out or even decimated. In Gujarat we saw how the Sangh used the grievances of the poor and the jobless and the perpetually insecure and acquisitive Indian middle class to further its evil agenda. Economic motives for violence have always been around and the minorities have always been the victims of such violence. The Moradabad riots were triggered by Punjabi immigrants wanting to break the Muslim monopoly over the brassware industry. It was the same in Jalgaon and Bhiwandi (Maharashtra) where outsiders, largely Sindhi and Punjabi Hindus, destroyed Muslim weavers in order to grab their business. In Haryana the Hindu backlash against Sikh terrorism in Punjab was directed against the Sikh shopkeepers of Panipat, Karnal and Yamunanagar. In riot-prone Hyderabad, Hindu mobs went for Muslim property including a Khadi Bhandar because the owner of the building was a Muslim. In Gujarat, not surprisingly, factories and shops owned by Muslims were burnt down, and in the villages, adivasis were let loose on Muslim money lenders. A factor that adds to the problem is the rapidly increasing number of the educated unemployed. They were the single largest group behind terrorism in Punjab. It is the same in Kashmir. In Gujarat many of the Hindu terrorists who killed and raped Indian citizens were also unemployed men. Looting banks, robbing the rich, spreading terror gives them a sense of power. The scenario is grim and getting grimmer day by day. What can be done about it? First, we have to learn to live with it. As I have said before, we cannot wish communalism away. We cannot pretend communal differences are seen only during riots and don't exist otherwise. They always have and they will in the future. So we must all, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, somehow overcome our stereotyped notions of communities other than our own. We must avoid the tendency to build community-based housing societies, schools and clubs. Hindus and Sikhs must understand that the Muslims of India do not have to atone in perpetuity for the historical mistakes of some past rulers of their faith who were in fact more concerned about the security of their empires, not their religion. Muslims have as much right to this country as anyone else. If they are foreigners, so are we. The only people who are indigenous are the adivasis, whom we have all but made extinct. The misuse of official media, All India Radio and Doordarshan, for propagating religion must stop. It has done immense harm by isolating communities further and putting the clock of scientific progress backwards. I attribute much of the blame for the resurgence of Hindu fundamentalism to serials on the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. The practice of religion must be restricted to places of worship and not imposed on others through public broadcasting means, loudspeakers, processions and holding samagams in public parks. When we are face to face with communal passions, what are the preventive and punitive methods we should adopt? The most important preventive method is to strengthen our Intelligence. This has become a cliche but it is very important. Our Intelligence has been so poor that we hardly get a warning ahead of time that communal passions are building up. It is only after somebody has been stabbed or some houses burnt down that the police, as our newspapers say, swing into action. We must also restructure our police force. We should adopt the simple principle that the minority communities should be over represented. If it is a Muslim area the police should be largely Hindu. If it is a Hindu area the police should be largely Muslim. This is necessary because it restores confidence in the minorities as it is the fears of the minority that you have to try and assuage. Care should be taken to see that sub-inspectors certainly belong to minority communities because they are the most important police officers who deal with the actual situation in any particular area. When a riot really breaks out, what should we do? I have the following suggestions to make: First, wherever a riot breaks out, the police officer in charge should automatically be suspended, because the breakdown of the law enforcing machinery is clear evidence of dereliction of duty; it is the police officer's duty to know that tension was building up and he should have taken steps to defuse it. After a new police officer - preferably from outside the area - is put in charge, the entire administration of that particular locality should be placed in his or her hands. It is for the officer, along with the district magistrate, to impose curfew in the area and take whatever steps they want, to contain violence. We must also provide for summary trials of mischief-makers. Perpetrators of communal riots are seldom brought to court. Rarely are communal killers punished, because nobody is willing to give evidence against them. Provisions should be made for summary trials on the spot where the incidents have taken place, and the magistrate should be empowered to impose collective fines on the area and to order public flogging of the people he feels were responsible. Of course, none of this will work unless we unequivocally embrace the idea of secularism as defined in our constitution and kick out any government that is even remotely communal. Otherwise we will have more governments like Modi's which will transfer out police officers not for their failure to prevent riots but for their failure to engineer and encourage them. It is tragic that we have corrupted the meaning of secularism, given it alternative definitions that suit us. Some people have even suggested we should banish secularism from India. Some five years ago, speaking at an official welcome function organized by the then BJP government of Delhi, the Shankaracharya mid that the word 'secular' should be expunged from the Constitution. He need not have laboured the point: for all practical purposes, barring the communists most of our political leaders have deleted secularism from their lexicons. The Lakshman Rekha between politics and religion no longer exists. Religion has invaded the domain of politics and completely swamped it. Thus we have driven the last nail in the coffin of secularism as envisaged by Pandit Nehru. At the cost of repetition, let me refresh readers' minds that secularism has two meanings: the western concept makes a clear distinction between functions of the state which includes politics and functions of religion which are confined to places of worship, public or private. This is the concept that Nehru accepted, preached and practiced.The other concept was equal respect for all religions. This was propagated and observed by men like Bapu Gandhi and Maulana Azad and lasted as long as the two men were alive. After that it deteriorated to a mere display of religiosity. If you were a devout Hindu you went to a Muslim dargah or threw an Iftar party to prove you were secular. If you were Muslim, you celebrated Diwali with your Hindu friends. Secularism was reduced to a sham display. Time has shown that as far as secularism is concerned, Nehru was right; Gandhi and Azad were wrong. The need of our times is to revive the Nehruvian notion of secularism. People in politics or holding elected public offices must not publicly engage themselves in religious rituals. Nehru never did. He did not encourage godmen, saints or mullahs or priests, to intrude into affairs of the state. The slide began with his daughter Indira Gandhi. With her, people like Dhirendra Brahmachari became formidable figures. Astrologers and tantrics were included in decision-making circles. We had the likes of Buta Singh, Balram Jakhar and Rajiv Gandhi paying homage to Deoraha Baba. We had the likes of Chandraswamy and Satellite Baba performing yagnas in homes of ministers and chief ministers. The Congress even wooed the Shahi Imam for the Muslim vote. And then we had Sahib Singh Verma's Delhi government and later the BJP-led NDA government inviting the Shankaracharya to be a State guest and to decide on legal issues of national importance. Religion is being brought into every aspect of life. This must stop; it is the road to madness. Sing your bhajans and shabads, say your namaaz and prayers as many times as you want, but in your home or your place of worship. That is for the salvation of your soul. Leave the soul of the nation to our constitution and the law. India needs a new religion The ideal solution of course is for India to adopt a new religion. I know I am being unrealistic, but I would like to share this idea with my readers anyway. Perhaps a few of you will become converts to good sense and I will have done my bit to beat the 'fundoos'. Bernard Shaw once wrote that every intelligent man makes his own religion though there are a hundred versions of it. Evolving a personal religion for myself has been a lifelong quest. It was, as Allama Iqbal put it: Dhoondta phirta boon main, ai Iqbal, apney aap ko Aap hee goya musafir, aap hee manzil hoon main (O Iqbal, I go about everywhere looking for myself, As if I were the wayfarer as well as the destination) After many years of study of the religion I was born into (Sikhism), studying the scriptures and lives of founders of other major religions of the world, and teaching comparative religions at American universities, I feel I am equipped to express myself on the need to evolve a new religion for Indians who have the courage to think for themselves. It is based on the assumption that most people need some kind of faith; that one's emotional content is provided by the faith one is born into, the rituals of which formed an essential part of one's upbringing. What is required today is the acceptance of what is basic in the religion of birth but removing from it the accretions of dead wood that have accumulated around it and which militate against reason. Khushwant Singh, one of India's most outstanding journalists and columnists, was educated at Government College, Lahore and at King's College and the Inner Temple in London. He has been founder-editor of Yojana, and editor of The Illustrated Weekly of India, The National Herald and The Hindustan Times. Among his published works are the classic two-volume History of the Sikhs, and novels including Train to Pakistan, I Shall Not Hear the Nightingale, Delhi and The Company of Women. Analyzing the communal violence in Gujarat in 2002, the anti-Sikh riots of 1984 and the sporadic Hindu-Muslim clashes in different parts of India, Khushwant Singh points out how the rise of religious fundamentalism among the Hindus threatens to undermine the country itself. The book is a wake-up call for every Indian citizen.

May I note that the quote that you have given appears at the very end of the poem and can very well be an after thought. At the very beginning, he only mentions his desire to improve upon the previous versions of the story as hi sonly motivation. There can be many reasons why Waris Shah decided to give this religious "spin" as the key to understand his masterpiece. I would recommend reading Heer Waris Shah without giving much weight to this quite transparent attempt to answer those readers who might get offended by a number of "R" rated descriptions and anti-Mullah and anti-religious estbalisment passages.

While writing their Aslee te Waddee Heer Waris Shah most writers innovated and made their own additions, in some cases quite freely. An excellent review of such material can be found in the edition compiled by Mohammed Sharif Sabir (published by Waris Shah Memorial Committee, Lahore, 1985). Most of us recognise all characters of this immortal story of Heer Ranjha (Dheedo was the real name of Hero of this story commonly known as Ranjha). What Waris Shah himself said about the symbolism of these characters at the end his work is also significant. Here is what he says:

I stand corrected - the late Asa Singh Mastana, of course. His rendition of Waris has one problem, however and this had been indirectly pointed out by none other than Janab Safir Rammah himself.

Doli charhdeyaan maariyaan Heer cheekaan

the verse was erroneously attributed to Waris Shah and immortalized by Asa Singh's heart-rending voice. But, of course, we could say that such liberties are always taken in the oral tradition which is where Heer-Ranjha popularly belongs. No quarrel with that either. But, consider for a second the difference between cheekaan and vain - the former has to do more with the rasa of fear whereas the latter has to do with interpreting Heer's forced marriage into the clan of the Kheras as nothing less than death itself. The latter therefore seems more in consonance with the character of a defiant and daringly transgressive Heer. The Pakistani singers do not seem to fall into the former traps of lachrymous sentimentality, by and large. In any case, Punjabi character is somewhat resistant to the idea of cheek (What cheek! I hear some of the more enterprising discussants chuckling)This is about as parochial as I can get.

Suman ji, I am back for a short interregnum and would fortunately be able to attend another Preet Milni at the India Habitat Center on May 1st. I understand that Dr Madan Gopal had made a small packet of music and books in Devnagri for you which now Baldeep would hopefully be carrying with him when he comes to the US in June. The evening at the IHC has been greatly talked about and enthusiastically received. Dr Madan Gopal would probably be singing Shiv Batalvi and Navtej Johar would be dancing. At least that's what the rumour is. And yes, Bhai Baldeep is something of a wonder. You must meet him when he comes to the US. I understand he conducts close to 4 or 5 workshops each year in the US spread all across the year and his disciples happen to be some of the top-notch musicians of the US. He is himself a disciple of Ustad Rahim Fahimuddin Dagar and Ustad Malikzada Abdul Hafiz Khan Khandare of Talwandi dhrupad gharana. His kind of the quitessential Punjabi classical music is indeed rare but then how one responds to him remains uncertain. His music is at times a life-time experience because one hears the Punjab which is almost completely lost to us today.

Bali. Lucky you to have been with, and been listening to, the Waddali brothers! I guess we all wish we were there too. Do any of these artists who visit Canada ever come to California? I would suppose that they would gravitate to the Berkeley/SF area as there are certainly more Punjabis there. But if you know of any of them visiting Los Angeles please, please let me know. Perhaps a decent audience could be rustled up here as well. Sukhbir. I returned from India a couple weeks ago so missed the event you mentioned. But I did get to go to the reading of Navtej Singhs short stories and that was a wonderful program. Met Prof. Madangopal Singh and even heard him sing Bulle Shah. He very generously offered to have a small mehfil and take me to meet a young man (would it be Baljit or Baldeep) who, I was told, runs a workshop, makes instruments and sings beautifully. Unfortunately, I was not able to grab this golden opportunity. But the young man comes to Berkeley once a year, maybe a trip to LA could work out. I would be very happy to host him. Also met S.S.Noor and will stay in touch with both of them. Also saw Navtej (the dancer) dance. My God! The Punj scene in Delhi sure seems very vibrant and lively. Well, I guess lucky you too! It is wonderful to see old friends back on the forum.

Sukhbir Ji, You forgot to mention the Heer by Asa Singh Mastana, its long been considered to be one of the best. I heard it a long time ago and had it in my forgotten collection for years, but I dug it out when a Pakistani friend of mine mentioned it and asked me if I could get hold of it for him. Worth a listen if you havent heard it.

Ps. Bali, your young friend Master saleem is in UK doing a few shows with Boota Mohd. and co.

Chandigarh, April 22 As one flicks through the literary corpus that defines Balwant Gargi, one cannot help tracing the roots of his literary genius. The journey takes us back from the glamorous Western settings to the humble Punjab villages that find expression in Gargi’s most celebrated works, ‘Loha Kut’ and ‘Kuari Teesi’. No matter how close to controversy Gargi went due to the voyeuristic appeal of his works, his heart was rooted in the village. That is precisely why his son is bringing him back home to Punjab.

Day after tomorrow when Mannu Gargi heads for Bathinda to immerse the mortal remains of his father into the Sirhind Canal, many Gargi associates in the city will wish for one last rendezvous with the man who made Punjabi prose worthwhile. This occasion brings back memories of days when Balwant Gargi belonged to Chandigarh — a city which he immortalised through references in his controversial novel ‘The Naked Triangle’. With its unconventional charm, Chandigarh grew upon him and inspired him to create the Department of Indian Theatre at Panjab University. As he enriched the department which produced Anupam and Kiron Kher, among others, seeds of ‘The Naked Triangle’ were being sown in the PU campus.

Today when the prodigal son of Punjabi literature is no more, it is time to reconstruct his memory with the help of vignettes provided by some of his friends. Eminent writer Gulzar Singh Sandhu has memories of Gargi losing control of his memory. “I met him two years back when he was chosen for the Punjabi Sahit sabha, fellowship. As member of the Sabha I had arranged the function in which lyricist Gulzar honoured Gargi. He looked pale. His memory was failing him. It’s strange because he was the same man who would never forget that he had borrowed money. He would make a note of his debts and clear them off sooner than later. He was also very rural at heart.”

As a writer, Gargi is unequivocally praised for three works — novels ‘Loha Kut’ and ‘Kuari Teesi’ and ‘Sharbat de Ghutt’ — a work in which Gargi has profiled people who influenced him. So Shiv Kumar Batalvi is ‘kaudiyaan wala sapp’ and Ajit Kaur is ‘kadhni’. Prof Mohan Maharishi, former Director, National School of Drama (NSD) and Department of Indian Theatre, PU, remembers Gargi as a cordial man and an excellent theatre person. “I met him at the NSD. He used to photograph Ebraham Alkazi’s productions. After Gargi saw my performance in Andha Yug, he called me to Chandigarh where he had founded the theatre department which I later joined as Director. I particularly remember Gargi’s play ‘Sultana Razia’ which Alkazi had directed. His Punjabi prose remains unparalleled. There is no such example in the realm of Punjabi drama. Gargi’s work was greatly inspired by Elia Kazan, a world famous American film director.”

Playwright Dr Harcharan Singh recalls the warmth of Gargi. “He was intelligent and dynamic. With his demise an era in Punjabi literature has ended. His literary contributions are indubitably the best, especially ‘Loha Kutt’, ‘Kanak di Balli’, ‘Kesro’ and ‘Dhuni di Aggan’. His work ‘Sohni Mahiwal’ was even staged in Moscow. The book, ‘Theatre in India’, published in 1962, fetched him the Sahitya Akademi Award. His documentary ‘Jatra’ fetched him the International Film Festival Award. What more can you ask of an artiste?

Rani Balbir Kaur’s association with Gargi dates back to days at the PU campus. “He gave the theatre department a firm footing. I am proud that I was among the first ones to be taught by him,” she says.

Even in his death, Gargi has entered another lifespan. He will be remembered in many shades — as a prodigal son of Punjabi prose and as a man who spared no one, including himself, when it came to baring raw feelings, born of unbridled emotion. Quoting Gargi: “I do not record happenings in my books, because I’m not a historian but a writer. In my books, I build up the experience that I’ve lived or have seen around. Writing a book, for me, is like erecting a rhythm of speech and that is it.”

A family get-together to be organised to meet at a dinner to mark the occasion.

The ashes of my body should be immersed in the waters of the Sirhind Canal of Bathinda, my native place, where I played on the golden sands in my childhood”— Balwant Gargi, September 17, 1997.

As Manu, son of the doyen of Punjabi literature Balwant Gargi, hands me a typed piece of paper containing the above four lines in the drawingroom of his sixth floor flat at the posh Versova locality of Mumbai, the 87-year-old writer lay sprawled on a mattress in the next room as if in a deep sleep.

“Yes, he is in deep sleep. Please do not disturb him,” pleads Manu Gargi. His sincerity and unbound love for his bed-ridden father reminds me of another celebrity son of a celebrity father and my neighbour at Juhu, Amitabh Bachchan. Here I have no hesitation to say that as far as the traditional father-son relationship goes in this country, Manu is much more down to earth guy than his American upbringing would have us believe the other way.

Now, one may wonder what Balwant Gargi was doing in Mumbai instead of Delhi where he spent almost half his lifetime rubbing shoulders with reputed writers, poets, and painters and thinking politicians like I K Gujral. Gargi suffered a massive stroke in 1999 while in Delhi and was brought to Mumbai by Manu who had already established himself in Mumbai’s filmdom by then.

His old friends from Delhi and Punjab kept visiting him off and on but Gargi’s declining health restricted his vital movements with the disastrous Alzheimer’s disease taking its toll. He slowly suffered memory lapses and could hardly communicate with his near and dear ones. But all these years Gargi was able to sit, recline and sometimes even concentrate on some occasions like the one two years ago, when Bhapa Pritam Singh, Gulzar Singh Sandhu and others came from Delhi to honour him.

Accepting the award, Gargi, who was moved by the gesture of his friends, fumbled through a speech, most of which could be understood. During the last two years his condition was quite steady but last month it suddenly took a turn towards the worst. He was taken to specialist doctors who advised against putting him on artificial life-saving gadgets.

The doctors were of the view that going by Gargi’s frail body and health, the so-called life-saving devices would not provide any relief. “We may manage to prolong his life by a few days but the end is inevitable. As any treatment at this stage would only be painful for the patient, we have advised the family to let the gentleman die a less painful death”, said a doctor who visited the octegenarian writer on Easter Sunday (April 20, 2003).

As I look at Gargi, lying on the ground, still as a slab, with his eyes shut and mouth half open, I journey back to the late sixties when impressed by the high talents of Balwant Gargi, the then Vice-Chancellor of Panjab University, Suraj Bhan created a special post of Professor and Director for the theatre genius and thus was established the Department of Indian Theatre on the campus.

I still remember Gargi taking rounds of the sprawling campus in his open top red coloured Standard car with his American wife next to him and two bubbly kids — Manu and Jannat — lolling in the back seat. As a youngster and pretty newcomer to the world of literature, I was simply awe struck with the sheer intense personality of the writer who gave us plays like Loha Kutt, Kesro, Dhoonni Di Aag, Kanak Di Balli, Actress and Naked Triangle, among others, later on.

The first time I met him was, however, in the company of legendary poet Shiv Kumar Batalvi during the making of the light and song drama Gagan Mein Thaal and I still cherish the moment. My last visit to Gargi’s house in Chandigarh was in 1977 when I went to request him for Amrik Gill’s admission to his department and Gargi obliged readily.

Soon after, Gargi left Chandigarh to settle down in Delhi. While I came down to Mumbai, Amrik Gill went over to Delhi to do his stint at the National School of Drama and became Gargi’s constant companion for years. No wonder that a doting pupil was at the house of Gargi this morning lending a hand to the doting son of his Guru.

In 1981, I produced Gargi’s play Kesro, which was staged at Mumbai’s prestigious Shanmukhananda Hall with late Sanjeev Bhattacharya and Rama Vij in lead roles. Just before the play was to start we had a surprise visitor on the backstage. It was Gargi himself, with Amrik Gill in tow. I was in a shock. I had not taken Gargi’s permission to stage his play and feared that he might stop the show. I think Gargi read my inner thoughts and said smilingly that he had just come to watch the play. The entire cast felt blessed by the writer’s presence.

Now, looking at Gargi’s face I just felt that he was deeply engrossed in creating a new role, not for his cast, but one for himself. For a moment I thought that maybe he has already enacted his role and was just waiting for the curtain call.

Manu and his sister Jannat, who has just arrived from the US, are prepared for the worst. And behind the curtains Manu is preparing for all eventualities. According to him, Gargi will be taken to Delhi for his last rites, the city where he belonged.

New Delhi, April 22 Renowned Punjabi dramatist and short story writer, Balwant Gargi, was cremated here today. He died in Mumbai last night after prolonged illness. He was 87. He left behind his son and daughter. The body of the Sahitya Akademi winning writer was brought to the Capital this afternoon and a large number of persons from cultural and literary field paid their last respect.

Born in Bathinda, Balwant Gargi completed his Masters from FC College in Lahore. Following Partition, he moved to Delhi. He wrote several plays, including “Nangi Dhup” (an autobiography), “Loha Kutt”, “Husin Chehere Kesro”, “Kanak Balli”, “Soni Mahiwal”, “Sultan Razia”, “Soukan,” “Mirza Sahiba” and “Dhooni di Agg” and short stories “Mircha Wala Sadh”, “Pattan di Berhi” and “Kuari Disi”.

He was awarded the Sahitya Akademi award, the highest literary award, in 1962 for his play “Rang Manch”.

Balwant Gargi taught for two years at the University of Washington and directed several plays.

Sukhbir thanks for reminding us all of each other. I usually go through waves of emotions which determine my degree of involvement with things. I have been missing from here though checking the page at least once everyother day. I do miss our friends here. Some wonderful people I would like to keep in touch always.

Thank you ever so much for your rather commendatory certificate of merit you so generously and gratituitously bestowed upon an unworthy like me, Janab 123 ji. I have been thinking to myself ever since how many important things in life have just passed me by and only because I was not attentive enough. I stand accused in mock-Rousseauvian histrionics and unlike Robbespierre I would say "J'accepte". I have also been thinking as to how much of the disorienting cultural products or rather acts of cultural production - such as a discussant's overenthusiatic proclamation of and support to 'out-of-this-world Paneer N' to the world at large - one would be required to eschew if one is to be creatively interactive. I do realize that in terms of my categorising of such disorienting acts/activities, I am at times excessively harsh. For instance, I am rather dismissive of a recent Punjbi mega-hit "Jee Aayaan Nu" despite cinematographer Manmohan Singh, music composer Uttam Singh and pop-diva with highly questionable musicality Harbhajan Mann's association with the project. To make matters worse, I remain unmoved in my views about the poetic merit of Shiv Kumar Batalvi despite my deep fascination with his creative persona. That makes me slightly out-of-sync with reality and I am happily comfortable with such a state of existence deplorable though it is. But am I a know-all? Even an ironic one? No, no, no... I have little desire to usurp the panopticon that God-Almighty presides over. In fact, I'm profoundly frightened even of entertaining such exaggerated visions of knowledge even though I am frighteningly well-read (oh! the pity of it all!). Rupe Pa'h is indeed doing wonderful work - no gainsaying the obvious. My problem with his inspired forays is that these tend to look as if an outside website is encroaching upon another. But maybe I am wrong. I hope I am. But I do miss the vintage stuff - the silently combative Zahra, the politely encouraging Suman, the enthusiastic almost ebbulient DullaBhatti, the one who quoted Koestler from Roorkee, the paternal Javed Zaki, the very rare Safir Ramah and the Jatti who held forth on issues at times with intellectualy challenging flare and, of course, the occasionally provocative Akhilesh.

It is strange that more Punjabi sites are dedicated to Gurumukhi and less Shahmukhi. Visa versa are there no books available in Gurumukhi? The books advertised here all seem Shahmukhi. For those who are interested in Shahmukhi, some days ago I did post a web link to the Alphabet. That might be a starting point.

I guess only Mr. GREWAL knows everything!!!!!!!!! Hey, But at least Mr Dhillon is providing some info than teaching PUNJABI LITERATURE to us like Mr. Grewal. Sometimes it's great to be WRONG than RIGHT all the time.

Sorry Sukhbir, that is my fault. I will not go in about Punajbi lessons anymore. My understanding of what had to do with Punjabi was different. Perhaps my project to devise new Punjabi nouns for Animal names might be of greater interest? And yes I am interested in Punjabi literature. Perhaps you can steer me in the right direction of how to obtrain some, so I can have meaningful discussions with you all?

Where did all the exciting discussants get off before the forum became a space for promoting consumer items such as Paneers etc or even a little more seriously long arduous and definitely tedious adverts for Punjabi teaching-learning spaces on the net and within the universities? Could you, maybe, start a separate discussion forum for lively discussions on literature, music, cinema and other modes of cultural production so that the level of discussion doesn't dip so alarmingly?

This website is that of an important person for the teaching of Panjabi, in western Universities. The professoer could be a valuable contact for Punjabi projects http://www.soas.ac.uk/contact/index.cfm?navid=1133

has anyone tried NANAK paneer. i tried it and it was out of the world. it reminded me of the paneer back home. i heard the NANAK PANEER POPPERS are really good.... can anyone tell me where to find them or their website.

Dr. Javed Zaki Jee, Thanks a lot for your kind words of appreciation. I learned all this from these great Sufis who devoted their lives selflessly for the betterment of this world. I hope your translation work on “101 Poems Against War” (kotar so nazmaaN jaNg de khilaf) will be highly admired by the lovers of international peace. Zaki Bhaee,I will one request to you that you must use simple and common words of Punjabi while doing these translations from English to Punjabi, so that the readers, who are already reluctant to read Punjabi, could read and understand them easily. Anyhow, I would love to read your work and will arrange a gathering of limited but sincere Punjabi lovers so that your work could be known here in Pindi and Islamabad. Our audience and target should be only sincere Punjabis, specially oh Punjabi lok jehnaaN da Punjabi zuban DhiDhoN masla ey, there are, unfortunately, many so-called Punjabis on front line who have hijacked all the opportunities on the name of Punjab and Punjabis whereas badly suppressed Punjab & Punjabis need genuine devotees, revolutionaries and true lovers, but not these thugs. I wish to unmask them but Sufi traditions do not allow me. My phone numbers in Rawalpindi are: 051-4417813 from 11 AM to 11PM (Pak time, Pak?), and 8 AM to 11 AM 9290828 i.e. the phone number of the Government College of Commerce, Rawalpindi.

Dr. Javed Zaki Jee, Thanks a lot for your kind words of appreciation. I learned all this from these great Sufis who devoted their lives selflessly for the betterment of this world. I hope your translation work on “101 Poems Against War” (kotar so nazmaaN jaNg de khilaf). Zaki Bhaee, you must use simple and common words of Punjabi while doing translation from English, so that the readers who are already reluctant to read Punjabi could easily read it. Anyhow, I would love to read your work and will arrange a gathering of limited but sincere Punjabi lovers,specially oh Punjabi lok jehnaaN da Punjabi zuban DhiDhoN masla ey, there are, unfortunately, many so-called Punjabis on front line who have hijacked all the opportunities on the name of Punjab and Punjabis whereas badly suppressed Punjab & Punjabis need genuine devotees, revolutionaries and true lovers, but not these thugs. I wish to unmask them but Sufi traditions do not allow me. My phone numbers in Rawalpindi are: 051-4417813 from 11 AM to 11PM (Pak time, Pak?), and 8 AM to 11 AM 9290828 i.e. the phone number of the Government College of Commerce, Rawalpindi.

Saeed Farani Jee. Your effort for the promotion of Punjabi and Punjabiyat is greatly appreciated and we hope you will keep doing your selfless contribution in this regard. As for myself, I am working on my 2nd collection of Punjabi poems. Besides, I am very inclined to translate “101 Poems Against War” in Punjabi. This collection has recently been published. I will inform you about my visit to Islamabad once we reach Lahore. Most probably it would be the 3rd week of May. Please let me know your phone # in Rawalpindi

You May Find following Web Sites of Interest: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_alphabet http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurmukhi http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_language http://www.5abi.com/5ratan/ Especially if you want to Learn Shahmukhi or Gurumukhi

Dr.Zaki Javed Jee, It is a matter of great pleasure to read the news of your arrival. Assee aKHeeyaaN wiChChaa ke beThey jey. Gee aayaaN nooN. I visited Lahore to attend two days conference on Sufism organised by World Punjabi Congress, chaired by Fakhar Zaman. I could stay there only for one day. Many good speakers (scholars of Sufism) were there including Shafqat Tanveer Mirza, Ahmed Saleem, Nadim Shahid etc. Self praise is no praise. My work on Mian Mohammad Bakhsh and Waris Shah was admired by all. Indirectly, this gathering became as a meeting of inauguration of the books as these only two books were available. Friends asked me to do the next work on Baba Bulha Shah instead on Baba Farid who was the next in the series of my Sufis's work. The kalam of Bulhah Shah is very much needed in the present circumstances. Let us hope that when you come here you get loaded with these three books.

Sub no salam, its really nice to see an active Punjabi website which is promoting the language and culture of Punjab. Our problem is that living in pardes its difficult to keep up with our culture and more so to aware our children of their culture, language and literature. Any suggestions would be welcome.

Dear Farani. We are visiting Pakistan in Summer. I have a plan to visit Islamabad in 3rd or 4th week of May and I hope to have a nice get-together. Anyhow, we will mainly be located at LUMS-Lahore, for an academic purpose. Take care.

I've seen BILB at the first you kind of like it because you see a punjabi family punjabi set up. Funny thing is lot's of punjabi kids including mine are starting to sayHaaYe RaBBa lot in their conversation and they know when to use it.

But when you do the post-mortom of the movie you see entirely another picture. I am kind of curious to see some of those observations on this forum to get the better ubderstanding of this movie. SO churn up those minds and spill some Makhan of your knowledge and expertise,So people like me can lubricate our Rusted Kal-PurJe of our brain.

How about we start a publishing section between all of us ( perhaps her) for Pujabees living in the west talking of their Experinces outside of the Punjab? Assee literature bahut khubsoorat hoogee, te sade boli noo vadaoo gee?

Hollywood bollywood was quite annoying. It was more or less the urban-punjabi phenomena, stereotyping one community as the quentessential rich dudes with limos, and easy,rebellious canadian girls of another community, all set to be rescued by the straight as an arrow hero. Ofcourse the girl's uncouth parents live in the house near the airport, while the hero's granny spouts shakespeare. Can one ask for more stereotyping! Of course it was all embellished with hindi song and dance numbers. < > It was ususal baloneywood fare! Perhaps Deepa Mehta was trying to mend fences with the BJP biggies, as MP Vinod Khanna's son was cast as a hero (undeservedly for sure). After the 'water' fiasco and all those religious types out to get her - she perhaps needed to make the peace offering. The charm was that it was shot in Toronto, and had a local talent for heroine.

I watched 'Bend it like Beckham' last year. My memory is a bit hazy now, but I don't think its Chadha's best work.

Growing up in England, I could relate to quite a bit of the film, but I think she oversimplified the complexity of the issues she seemed to be tackling, and some of the sterotypes and acting was downright cheesy.

Patiala, April 2 The Department of Journalism and the Department of Television and Theatre of Punjabi University have teamed up to produce a number of documentaries covering various aspects of Punjabi life and culture. The first two such documentaries “Shtapoo” and “Geete” based on folk games of the state are ready for screening.

The documentaries have been directed by Dr Gurmeet Maan, trained in TV production techniques at the Film and Television Institute of India (FTII), Pune, and Dr Yogesh Gambhir, a passout from the National School of Drama(NSD), Delhi. Two more films on the same lines are to be completed soon. One is about “Hola Mohalla” and the other features the life of unsung Punjabi folk instrumentalist, Baba Kanshi Nath, an accomplished player of ‘vanjhli’ and ‘been’.

Giving this information, Dr Maan said these films were laced with many concepts and configurations hitherto unused in the format of such films.

Nowadays when Punjabi has become second language officially in some Hindi-speaking-areas (ie.Hariana ,Delhi ,J&K ) English-speaking-areas (ie.British Colombia in Canada ) and Punjab in Pakistan ,unfortunately no research has been done in the field of teaching and studies of Punjabi as a second language ,Traditional teaching methods ,techniques and subject materials ,which are formed for first language Punjabi teaching are being used for second language Punjabi teaching .This practice fully contradicts the theories and principles of Pedagogical Linguistics and Education Psychology.Lack of research based theoretical knowledge in this field ,creates problems in the development of Punjabi as a second language. In the present circumstances, when Punjabi language has got status of second language in States other than Punjab and abroad , linguistic research is essential and required for the solution of problems of Punjabi teaching and studies , which are entirely different from the problems of Punjabi teaching as a first language .(ie,spoken and taught as a first language in the Indian Punjab )For the fulfillment of this purpose ,I am pursuing multidisciplinary research in the field of Punjabi language ,Applied Linguistics and Education .The topic of my research is “Teaching and Study of Punjabi as a second language” .( an applied linguistics perspective ) Under this research I will study the problems of Punjabi teaching and studies as a second language in Hindi-speaking-areas (ie.Haryana ,Delhi ,J&k etc.) and English-speaking-areas (ie.Canada,U.S.A ,U.K etc .) I have need some information , about actual position of Punjabi as language in the countries like U.K.USA,Canada etc. Can you send following information to me: Name and Address of: (E-mail, Fax, Phone much preferred) 1 Schools where Punjabi is taught as a second language, 2 Punjabi Teachers, 3 Punjabi literary circles / organization. I hope you will help me and send me above information Gurmeet Sidhu, (+91)9814 000 383

Dear all please see second lesson if interested. Also in regards to Words that dont exist in Punjabi, if any of you are familiar with PREM and my new words project, please tell me what you think of the suggestions below. Re my paper, these are spanish words that have simliair phontics to Punjabi, and refer to specific fish species like the word Muchi doe not. Haddock, sea bass, bass, squid, bream, salmon, swordfish, shark abadejo, mar bajo, bajo, calamar, bream, salmón, espada, tiburón so haddock is Abadejo and Shark is Tiburon and swordfish is Espada, but Salomon and Bream are as in English

Dulla-Bhatti It was nice hearing the word used by our older generation - "bota" (camel), "oonth" is more "shehri" perhaps more common nowadays. I guess the dialects have something to do with this. Some might even insist on "Daachi". The punjab today is displaying global trends of standardisation within languages. Even english is going through this phase. That is why to keep punjabi relevant we need to standardise with input from all three punjabs - east, west and overseas.

Jithe Tak Mainu yaad hai hare are some of the punjabi words for the list you post. Anybody correct me if I am Wrong

Account-KhataCredit-Dendaaridebit-LaindaariAccrual-Dont Knowprepayment-peshgiProfit-Munaafa or laabhloss-Ghaata or haani or Nuksaantrade-Soudacounterfeit-Nakli??assets-SarmayaDebtors-Karjaaicreditor-Aadhtiya or bank Waley;-))invoice-Don't know could it be bahi-khate da pageB.statement,proforma,compounding,marketing-don't knowtransaction-Souda same as tradetax-choongiintrest-sood or Beaaj

Dear Friends, It is a wonderful site to learn Punjabi (just punjabi gurmukhi). I wish it could also be in shahmukhi as well as gurmukhi and it could do a lot to promote understand and relationships in between two sides of Punjab. Anyhow, even then it is a wonderful site and we should recommend it to Pakistani punjabies who are interested in learning Gurmukhi. There are many who wish to learn gurmukhi here. Many people ask me is there any Qaida (abc text book) of Gurmukhi available here in Pakistan? This site can be recommeded. Saeed

Thank you for this great site. It is really good for the beginner to get started on. I have a friend of mine who is working on the software and database hugh enough to accomodate lots of punjabi words. even you type in the punjabi words in roman in their search field. it shows you the words that correspond to that word. it is really great. When they have a final product. It will be really intresting to see and work with it. Once again thanks for this info on that great site. Please keep it up. God knows how much we need that kind of work done in order to preserve our Maa-Boli.

I agree with Preeto ji. We do not need more upheavel to promote Punjabi. Europe is a very good example. The Germanys even when split did not do away with German language and culture. We do need to have free communication and exchange amongst the peoples of the region.

In the Modern World Punjabi needs Modern words: Can anyone state what the official Punjabi nouns are for: Pilot Air Pilot Accountant Lawyer Doctor Dentist Radiographer Nurse Zooligist Driver Optician Astronaut

From my previous post some people started thinking that reunion of Punjab means the breaking of Pakistan or India. I wish to make some clarification for such people. Punjabis who follow the philosophy of their sufis and wise people never wish to break Pakistan and India. Political reunion of the two portions or a renuinion at the cost of their mother countries is not their objective. In fact they wish free and open interaction between the people of the two portions of Punjab just like there're no barriers for trade and cultural activites between Germany, Italy, France, GB and other European Union countries. When big enemies of the two great world wars can make friends with each other, then people of Punjab and other parts of sub-continet can also make good and useful connections between themselves.

Roop There are no words for these in Punjabi. i think cheetah is Bagh. since punjabi's have not come into contact with these creatures or for that matter another indian, it is obvious they dont have names for it. language and words depend on how important the object or concept is in a culture. wheat and rice are important to punjabi farmers and have names for each stage of production. snow on the other hand is new for punjabi so they call snow and ice both barf (also a borrowed word). however ice is important to eskimos and they have nine words for it. an interesting observation i picked up in college.

Dear Mr. Javed Zaki: You appear to be a highly educated and logical person in your recent post. I was surprised only on the first time when I read your earlier post in which you forwarded the superstitions attached with a personalities. Educated people know very well about the people and their motives who attach these kinds of things to raise the status of some personalities. We also know about the harm these things do our society.

Afzal Hashmi Ji. What superstitions did you refer to? If you referred to "mosalle thelle shakkar wali gal", then, to me, it is a very marginal episode in the general context of the article. Nevertheless, I strongly agree with you on your opinion about the phenomenon of "Superstition" and its negative sociological implications. I consider it a choronic negative norm of our culture.

Sweet water and fertile soil from five rivers constitutes Punjab. It's the geography of this land which influenced the culture of this land and not the vice versa. History of Punjab is controlled by its geography. Political manouverings did change the boundries of Punjab but not permanently. Culture has also not proved to be an integerating or disintegerating factor for the people of this area. For example people of Hindco, Siraiki or Hariyana strips of Punjab have almost entirely different cultures and languages than the other areas of Punjab which have very slight differences, but they always remained parts of Punjab because the water of five rivers flow in their blood and their feet touch the same soil of five rivers. Enemies of Punjab tried to create partitions between the people of Punjab through political conspiracies many times in the history of Punjab but these partitions didn't last very long. The most recent partion is that of Hariyana and East Punjab. Before this the big partion of 1947 split Punjab among two seperate countries. Enemies of Punjab were successful in getting the support of some political representatives of a community which preferred the split of Punjab over the common cultures and common values with their counterparts. Lack of political wisdom of these political representative helped their enemies when they decided to join them at the eleventh hour. This stunned Punjabis and they were furious at this decision. Therefore, they satarted killing each other in madness. Punjabis futher paid for this blunder when they lost Hariyana to their clever enemies. The enemies tried to consolidate the partition by building a fence on the partition line when it found the people of the two portions of Punjab cooperating with each other accross the line of partition. XXXXXX......

Panel Discussion Asia Society, NY Midnight’s Children: Musings of the Past, Visions of the Future March 17, 6:30 p.m. Indian independence and the creation of Pakistan. What was the dream? What has been the reality? What is the hope for the future? This inter-generational panel of South Asians includes participants who were involved in or affected by the independence movement of India and the founding of Pakistan. They will share their personal memories of the history and legacy of these movements on past and present; local and global. Panelists include: Bapsi Sidhwa, Meena Alexander, Asad ur Rahman, Shaheryar Azhar and Vishakha Desai $7 members/students/seniors; $10 nonmembers

Pitting culture against religion in deeply religious Sikh and Muslim communities is self-defeating. Culture will always come out on the losing end in this tug of war. Just look around in rural Punjab; a lot of cultural practices have fallen wayside - as they should have because culture cannot and should not remain oblivious to religious beliefs of a community - just on the notion of their being "unislamic". After all, what good are cultural values in absence of broad consensus of a community?

Punjab is not as homogenous an entity as often portrayed here. If you abolish the British imposed delineations of boundaries, then myriads of quite distinct, if not diametrically opposed, cultures will emerge. To Hindko speaking people of Northern districts (Attock, Chakwal, etc.) “bhangRa” is as alien as “barballa” might be to Lehnda Punjabis.

However, we do not need another “batwara”, but rather strengthening of democratic institutions and political reforms where every political aspirant will have a fair chance at power corridors and will not have to resort to manipulating masses’ ethnic or religious emotions to acquire political clout – the oft-driving force behind such “noble” undertakings in the name of love for religion and culture.

Mr. Javed Zaki: Don't you think that it doesn't look approperiate for educated people to believe in superstitions? Isn't it very harmful to spread these kinds of things in the scoeity by terming them wisdom? How can we bring our society from this jihalat when our educated people say such things?

LAHORE, March 13: Shahida Parveen, a classical and folk singer, died of kidney failure here on Thursday after a week-long illness. She was 50.

She was admitted to Shaikh Zayed Hospital last week with kidney problem. After some initial improvement, her condition deteriorated on Wednesday and she died at 2am. She was buried at 3pm on Thursday.

Known for her skill on classical genre of music, Shahida Parveen made her mark by singing sufi poetry as well. Mainly trained by her late mother, Zahida Parveen - a noted singer in the 1950s and 60s in her own right - Shahida Parveen also got education in music from Patiala Gharana. She was a disciple of Akhtar Ali Khan, father of Amanat Ali Khan and Hamid Ali Khan.

"Shahida was one of those rare people who started singing after learning the skill," said Farukh Bashir of the PTV. Education in music had refined her personality to a great extent, meaning thereby that she had absorbed music in its all manifestations and forms. She was one of those singer who did not need on-job-training like many of her contemporaries, Mr Bashir added.

APP adds: She was also the disciple of well-known classical singer of the sub-continent, Ustad Chhotey Ghulam Ali Khan.

The artist was buried in Miani Sahib graveyard where a large number of artists belonging to radio, television and theatre attended the funeral.

Najm Hussain Syed (not N. Hussain - which is like calling Faiz Ahmed Faiz as F. Ahmed and making a great educated comment "he writes well") is to Punjabi Literature what Alama Iqbal and Ghalib are for Urdu literature. It is sad reflection on affairs in Pakistan that many Pakistani Punjabis and those who claim to be of a superior breeding don't have a clue who this great living legend Najm Hussain Syed is. Najm Sahib does not correspond on e-mail.

Dr. Zaki: Thank you for a beautiful article. In fact, if this is the same N.Hussein whose work is also posted on APNA's articles' corner, he writes very well. Not only that, but there is substance in his words and he quotes pertinent verses. I did include some of his concepts in my recitation. Is there any email contact for him? And, what is South Asian? An ezine? Please let me know. Thanks.

Nomani you are very right. Nobody stops me from talking with my Sikh friends or having fun with them except my religious scholars. Religious Sikhs too get same kind of advice from their religious scholars. There is no harm in speaking out these truths. Such discussions will enhance the cause of our collective culture. Talking like druggies or religiously addicted people doesn't serve Punjabi literature or Punjabi culture. I think some educated person should be appointed as a moderator for the forum.

My articles which were deleted were in response to the articles which were not intended to promote Punjabi cultutre but to promote spiritualism. In my opinion spritualism is responsible not only for damaging the Punjabi culture but also responsible for making impossible the coexistance of different Punjabis. Punjabis of different faiths and beliefs can get together in any place but not in their religious buildings. What's wrong with this statement?

Nomani, this is a place for Punjabi language, literature and culture. If your only cause is to make arguments based on religion with your own people then this organization is obviously not the place you want to affiliate yourself with. Besides, your opinion that Punjabi's of different religions cannot coexist isnt 'truth'.

I dont think censorship is the correct word to be used for the removal of your posts. Perhaps it is simply that the moderator here has deleted them due to their irrelevance, rather than denial of you to express your opinion.

Cant some people have discussions that DONT involve religion? What is this obsession many South Asians have with trying to expose the differences (weaknesses maybe) with other peoples religions?

If only these people would put the passion they display in arguing over religion into something constructive might us brown skinned South Asians rise above being one of the most self-destructive and ridiculed bunch of human beings on Earth.

Najam Hosain Syed (ex- Head, Punjab University Punjabi Department, Lahore writer & poet of "Takhte Lahore " a play performed in India), writing in his excellent book "Recurrent Patterns in Punjabi Poetry", refers to Baba Farid as standing at the far end of Punjabi poetic tradition in eminent isolation. Nearly three centuries pass before another figure of any status relieves the curious blank." Najam comments on the uncompromising "austere rhythms of Farid " and the use of the "Dohras" as a rhymed couplet, reflecting a poise, serenity, grim yet confident, volatile, meaningful use as the following verses show. Note the old Italian saying and caveat about translations - " The Translator is a traitor ". Still for the function of this essay and to bring the message of these Sufi mystics and poets to the South Asian people as a whole, scattered as they are in various continents, English and the Romanized version of Punjabi & Saraiki is used. Mostly, poetry is sung and it is the singer and the music composer who brings out the variations of range in emotion and meaning.Dohra - Baba Farid.

" Laden with my load of misdeeds, I move about in the garb of black garments. And the people see me and call me a dervish."

To quote from Najam Hosain’s brilliant essay - .... " The passivity induced by the evenness of rhythm is suddenly shattered when the last part of the second line - " and people call me a dervish" clinches the meaning, putting the rest of the verse in an intense blend of irony and pathos. Black clothes worn by pious men as a sign of humility become associated in the minds of men with an undefined piety. But for the poet, black symbolizes his erring self ... there is a quality of haunting mockery in Farid’s repetitive insistence on the word "black"..."

The reader may know that the Holy Prophet Mohammed [ PBUH] is also referred in qawwalis as " Kali kambli waley " [the one with the black cloak ].

"Drenched and smirched be the cloak; let God’s cloud pour all the waters: Go I must; I go to keep my word of love."

Najam goes on to show how the poet resolves this young woman’s nagging hesitant situation of her inner self and the prudent cautioning of reputation. The above example is one of the uses of the two lines for a volatile purpose. Najam then gives another example of the use of the two line couplet [dohra] as depicting a "veiled gravity" in that as long as a person does not attain inner maturity, there is always a need to be mindful and watchful as the Buddha used to say [Better to conquer yourself than to conquer others]. Here is a dohra using the peasant and farming metaphors.

"Shout, Farid, shout like the watchful man in the corn-field; As long as the bushel does not mature and fall, shout on"

There is no ornamental use of words, there is a veiled gravity in the tone of Farid and the imagery is drawn from sweat of the common peasant farmers.

Baba Farid's Life

Baba Farid was born on the on the first day of the month of Ramzaan in 1173 in the city of Kothiwal, near Dipalpur in Punjab. It is now called Pak Pattan; the ancient name has been recorded as Ajodhan. The city existed when Alexander invaded in 326 BC. It was an important metropolis on the Multan-Delhi route. The city is on the banks of the river Sutlej. People going across would usually wash [clean = pak] themselves at the ferry [pattan]. Hence the name Pak Pattan .The story goes that, the day Baba Farid was born, a holy man was consulted about the breaking of a fast. He advised that a great soul had been born in the house of Jamal-ud-din Suleiman and that the community could break the fast only when the infant suckled. It is said that the infant Baba Farid was fasting. Baba Farid’s ancestors were from a town called Aush, south of Fergana [Babur’s hometown] south east of Andijan. Farid’s grandfather [Qadi Shuaib] left Kabul and took refuge in Lahore under the Ghaznavid Sultan in 1125. However the gay atmosphere of Lahore did not appeal to his nature and he moved to Kasur above 34 miles southeast of Lahore where the Sultan entrusted him to the Qadi [Kazi- a semi-religious administrator] position. Eventually he left and settled in Kothiwal leaving Kasur. Farid’s father Jamal-ud-din Suleiman married the daughter of Sheikh Wajih-ud-din Khojendi called Qarsum Bibi [some say her name was Mariam]. Qarsum was a lady of great piety. According to legend it was she who influenced Farid to pray by placing small cubes of Shakar [brown sugar] under Farid’s prayer mat. One day it is said that although she did not place the Shakar, nevertheless there was a piece of Shakar under Farid’s mat.

Khwaja Bakhtiar Kaki was Baba Farid’s "Guru". He was influenced by the Hallaji and Wujjud doctrines, which are essentially spiritual in nature. Kaki met Moinuddin Chishti at Baghdad and being impressed by the man became his disciple. Chishti migrated to Delhi and Kaki followed him, staying for a while in Multan. Because of rivalry and jealousy between some other Sheikhs in Delhi, Moin-ud-din Chishti left for Ajmer. The King at Delhi Balban welcomed Farid in Delhi and introduced him to his family; Balban’s daughter was married to Farid and the gifts for the marriage were distributed among the poor and needy [fakirs]. There is a town called Faridkot in Indian Punjab. Farid is truly the father of Punjabi literature. He died on the 5th of Moharram 1266. Baba Farid’s poetry was later to influence the Sikh religion and especially their Holy Book "Sri Guru Granth Sahib" by the founder Guru Nanak. Such was the universality of Baba Farid, the Sufi poet laureate from Punjab.