kowtow

mikenmild

It doesn’t get you very far down the road to America as a christian nation though, does it? If I refer to our current year as 2015 does that mean I am acknowledging a christian construct for the purposes of measuring time?

I think that “progressive” tends to refer to desired outcomes. Most progressives seem to or tend to prefer legislation and regulation to achieve those outcomes, but I don’t think that this is inherent to “progressivism”.

kowtow

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness

nasska

….”“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”….

The mythical “Creator” must be pretty pissed when He looks at what the Godaddled have done to the USA. Most religioconservatives seem to support the death penalty yet ‘kill them all….let God sort them out’ doesn’t exactly gel with a right to life.

Then there’s the small matter of liberty. From the Oxford Dictionary:

….”The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one’s behaviour or political views”…..

Sucks to be a Rastafarian but few better examples of the schizophrenia of those who know deep in their tummies what’s good for us exist.

Happiness…..you must be joking. It’s the conservative’s way or the highway & wipe that grin off your face boy!

According to a new poll, Democrats now view socialism as favorably as they view capitalism.

52% of Americans have a favorable view of capitalism, while only 26% have a favorable view of socialism. Among younger Americans, however, attitudes are a lot more divided. 36% of under-30s have a positive view of socialism, while 39% have a positive view of capitalism. Among over-65s, who came of age at the height of the Cold War, only 15% look upon socialism favorably while 59% have a like capitalism.

Democrats (43%) are also much more likely than either independents (22%) or Republicans (9%) to have a favorable view of socialism. Democrats, in fact, are as likely to have a favorable view of capitalism (43%) as socialism.

While it’s often best not to engage with conspiracy theorists on their own turf, as you can probably never convince them, it’s worth setting the record straight on all the myths and phony evidence surrounding the Sandy Hook massacre.

We’ve rounded up every major piece of evidence we could find that leads theorists to say the “official narrative” of events “doesn’t add up” and provided the facts that show why these questions can be easily explained. We’ve ignored the empty accusations with no evidence to support them (it was the Jews!) and focused only on the theories that try to present actual empirical or circumstantial evidence.
Let us know if we missed any and we’ll add to it as more myths emerge. In no particular order, here is your comprehensive guide to disproving the Sandy Hook Truthers:….”

While it’s often best not to engage with conspiracy theorists on their own turf, as you can probably never convince them, it’s worth setting the record straight on all the myths and phony evidence surrounding the Sandy Hook massacre.

We’ve rounded up every major piece of evidence we could find that leads theorists to say the “official narrative” of events “doesn’t add up” and provided the facts that show why these questions can be easily explained. We’ve ignored the empty accusations with no evidence to support them (it was the Jews!) and focused only on the theories that try to present actual empirical or circumstantial evidence.
Let us know if we missed any and we’ll add to it as more myths emerge. In no particular order, here is your comprehensive guide to disproving the Sandy Hook Truthers:……..

The southern cross I get as I have seen it progress over the horizon as you sail south towards home
The silver fern is part of our existing heritage being worn by our solders and athletes for a century or more.
The blue has traditionally represented the deep pacific ocean.
Is there any symbolism behind the red besides we are being sold to china?

Hillary 2016 supporters (who like Hillary’s pledge of “equal pay” for men and women) don’t know what to say when they find out she paid her female staffers 72c on the dollar as compared to male staffers when she was a senator. 🙂

stephieboy

Fletch, the American Revolution owed more to the ideas of Enlightenment thinkers and philosophers like John Locke, Rosseau and Monstesquei with their ideas of natural rights, separation of powers, balance of power etc and obviously less to centralised religious and monarchial authority ,

Somee people trying to minimise the contribution of Christianity to the American revolution?
Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 52 were Orthodox Christians.
98 percent Protestant Christians; 1.8 percent Catholic Christians; .2 of 1 percent Jews was the population makeup.

stephieboy

Gulag 1917, no questions that christianity influenced the American revolution but more the kind that was influenced by the Enlightenment thinking I outlined previously which would be mainly Protestant and e.g orthodox christian requires further analysis and explanation.

Dr. M. E. Bradford of the University of Dallas, who wrote a series of biographical sketches on the fifty-five delegates to the Constitutional Convention, documented their religious affiliations: 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 3 deists and 1 unknown. At most, 5.5 percent of America’s Founders were deists, 3 of 55.
All the denominations at that time would have been creedal and had articles of faith therefore they were orthodox.

mikenmild

You are correct to point out that most of the founding fathers were christians, although some of the most influential were deists, at best. What is interesting is how careful these christians were to separate church and state.

Maggy Wassilieff

In a world where not being Christian was exceedingly unusual.
The first three presidents and writers of the declaration of independence were the deists.
The next two are a probable deist and an unknown.
Defiantly not founded as a “Christian nation” more as a nation containing Christians.

nasska

North America circa 1787 had been settled by people who were nominally or culturally Christian. That said they represented multiple denominations & then as today the various cults & sects couldn’t agree on how to build a pew, never mind a Constitution they could all live with.

The lack of press given to God was probably the only way compromise was possible.

Sir Leslie Bottocks

Griff, no matter what arguments you bring up, the truth is that America was conceived by Christians as a Christian nation. That cannot be denied. Was America atheist? Was it Muslim? Was it Buddist, Hindu, or Sikh? No, it was Christian. The highest court in the land has a frieze of Moses holding the 10 Commandments. Senators and Presidents alike are sworn into office on the Holy Bible. The Supreme Court opens sessions with the words, “God save the United States and this honorable court.”

So don’t tell me that America was not founded with Judeo Christian principles. It was indeed. Facts are facts.

mikenmild

nasska

Fletch

The USA was colonised by Europeans who were culturally Christian…..I’m happy to concede that. They still represented multiple brands of Christianity & would have included a fair proportion of people who were tired of the corruption & political cronyism of the churches in their homelands.

The USA of 1787 would have been like 1950s NZ. Everyone had to belong to a sect or they were ostracised by society at the direction of the social engineers of the era…….they didn’t necessarily believe in the garbage.

This compulsion gave the established churches great power & they used it to dominate Law, Learning & Politics. It is this domination you confuse with principles.

No Fletch the usa is a secular state .
Plainly set out in the first amendment and confirmed by judgment of the supreme court.

Everson v. Board of Education (1947), the U.S. Supreme Court incorporated the Establishment Clause (i.e., made it apply against the states). In the majority decision, Justice Hugo Black wrote:

The “establishment of religion” clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion to another … in the words of Jefferson, the [First Amendment] clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between church and State’ … That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach.

RF

I feel sorry for the good people in Christchurch who have a former Labour MP as mayor and a laughing jackass for a deputy mayor. Miss Buck was their mayor years ago and took great pains to hide that she lived in Fendalton, a blue chip area. Was not a good look to have your Labour leaning mayor to be wealthy and living in the best area in town.

You will never get an honest serious answer from Buck as she is always laughing. Now she wants to give the ratepayers hard earned dosh to the sick the lame and the lasy.

Manolo

More of the same from the country of idlers and loafers::

Greece’s finance minister says his country’s financial situation is “terribly urgent” and the crisis could come to a head in a couple of weeks.

Yanis Varoufakis gave the warning after eurozone finance ministers met in Brussels to discuss the final €7.2bn tranche of Greece’s €240bn EU/IMF bailout. Ministers said Greece had made “progress” but more work was needed.

“History has always been paved by the ignorant, who refuse to acknowledge it, and by those who refuse to learn the great lessons that it teaches. American was inspired by the Founding Fathers who chose to build a government which would allow its people a chance to be all that they can be by self-reliance and rugged individualism, and in that spirit, was the inspiration for the American growth that marked the start of the 20th century.

It wasn’t the federal government that created the seeds of prosperity; it wasn’t the federal government that developed the new manufacturing techniques that allowed the most amazing inventions to be built in a cost effective manner; and it wasn’t the federal government that risked its savings, creating jobs, bringing forth all the modern products that became the envy of the world; and it wasn’t the federal government that built the companies that became the foundation on which this country grew.”

Griff, we have been over this and been over this. The “separation of church and state” means exactly the opposite of what you take it to mean. It means that the Govt cannot impose one certain form of religion on the population, it does NOT mean (and never did) that religion should have no place in the running of the state.

And the U.S might be more of a secular state NOW, but it was not conceived that way.

The United States Supreme Court, the highest judicial body in America, which officially and unanimously declared in 1892 that America is legally and organically a Christian nation (Holy Trinity Church vs. United States). This alone should answer the question, but we’ll help you understand the reasons behind the Court’s declaration.

The Court did not merely say that most people in America were Christian, or that there were no Muslims or Hindus in America. According to the author of the Court’s unanimous opinion, the Court’s claim that America “is a Christian nation” is in “the domain of official action and recognition,” not mere “individual acceptance.” The Court demonstrates that our entire system of government was created –

* with a duty to acknowledge the authority of the God of the Christian Bible, and to obey His commandments
* by Christians who
– acknowledged the authority of God and were committed to obey His commandments
– intended the government they created to acknowledge and obey God.

Reid

officially, legally, constitutionally.

Masons have trouble being true Christians Fletch, for one reason because of the damage they swear to do to their own bodies if they reveal the secrets of the brotherhood, which negates Christ’s sacrifice for them. That’s not to say many don’t profess the faith and many don’t themselves believe they possess it. Just that it’s normally very difficult actually to have it, while they’re a registered Mason.

And almost all of the Founding Fathers were Masons.

Take a look at how Washington has been laid out.

Not much doubt there, is there.

No possibility its a coincidence, in any way.

Don’t believe me of course.

Most of you wouldn’t anyway.

However, wouldn’t it be interesting to discover Washington D.C.’s street layout really actually in fact indeed does mirror precisely, to a theodolite’s fractional precision, various Masonic symbols.

Wouldn’t that be interesting.

Just like a movie.

So don’t take my word for it.

Not that you would anyway, right?

Just do me a favour and don’t bray it’s completely false, even before you’ve looked it up to see for yourself whether it is or not. I’m getting sick of some of you who make a profession of doing precisely that.

The fallacy in the opinion is the assumption of Christianity as a universal religion:

The opinion quotes a religious theme:

“Or like that in articles 2 and 3 of part 1 of the constitution of Massachusetts, (1780:) “It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the Great Creator and Preserver of the universe. ”

And quotes a religious theme with a specific Christian character:

Or by article 22 of the constitution of Delaware, (1776,) which required all officers, besides an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe the following declaration: “I, A.B., do profess [143 U.S. 457, 470] faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration.”

But the opinion makes no distinction between them:

“There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning.”

I.e it does not follow that a religious people are necessarily Christians.

stephieboy

EAD,

…It wasn’t the federal government that created the seeds of prosperity; it wasn’t the federal government that developed the new manufacturing techniques that allowed the most amazing inventions to be built in a cost effective manner; and it wasn’t the federal government that risked its savings, creating jobs, bringing forth all the modern products that became the envy of the world; and it wasn’t the federal government that built the companies that became the foundation on which this country grew.”

Explain how e.g the transcontinental rail road and Eire Canal were funded !

Tauhei Notts

Reid

Stephie likes to make things up about stuff people never mentioned and pretend that’s what they were talking about Tauhei.

It’s quite abusive and he does it so often to so many different people one is forced to conclude it’s no accident, it’s a deliberate tactic.

It’s sometimes innocent enough, but when he does it on something serious, like sexism or racism, that’s when it becomes unacceptable. But he has no limits and lines like those and worse are often crossed.

Reid

It is myth that vast engineering projects of this kind and the Transcontinental railroad were purely funded by private venture capital.

Not that anyone at all including Tauhei was even talking about that in any way whatsoever stephie. So why, precisely, did you feel a need not only to bring a totally irrelevant angle into the discussion which on-one was even discussing? And not only to do that, but to paint it as if it addresses some point someone was making.

How ridiculous.

Not to mention, you’re wrong.

But who cares about that.

No-one was even talking about those things, anyway.

BTW, I’ve reported you for your insult to Tauhei, how dare you call him dum dum. Who do you think you are.

stephieboy

Reid, it was this false claim by your fellow rather deluded conspirator ,

stephieboy (5,337 comments) says:
May 12th, 2015 at 8:44 pm
EAD,

…It wasn’t the federal government that created the seeds of prosperity; it wasn’t the federal government that developed the new manufacturing techniques that allowed the most amazing inventions to be built in a cost effective manner; and it wasn’t the federal government that risked its savings, creating jobs, bringing forth all the modern products that became the envy of the world; and it wasn’t the federal government that built the companies that became the foundation on which this country grew.”

Explain how e.g the transcontinental rail road and Eire Canal were funded

EAD like you can be not only simplistic but highly misleading at times,

Reid

Reid, it was this false claim by your fellow rather deluded conspirator ,

So what does anything that EAD said have to do with what you said: viz;

Tahei Notts,

Tuenu nost,

here dum, dum…

Very insulting stephie.

Again, what does Tauhei (note the spelling), have to do with EAD?

Also, your sentence: “it was this false claim by your fellow rather deluded conspirator” seems to imply you lump everyone together and don’t separate them at all. So anything one of the “lumpees” says gets attributed to everyone else you’ve in your own mind lumped together.

Not acceptable stephie.

At all.

Ever.

In any way.

You have elucidated why your behaviour has for so long here been so peculiar. It now falls into place.

But not acceptable stephie.

Stop it.

Don’t lump together, ever again.

We are all individuals.

None of us speak for anyone else.

Don’t ever repeat don’t ever repeat don’t you dare ever again, assume that when one of us says something, that anyone else in your delusional lump thinks the same thing.

I don’t care what happens inside your own mind stephie, just don’t you dare ever do that again.

It’s not acceptable.

How would you like being held responsible for what Shawn says. Or what nasska says. Or what Redbaiter says?

See what I mean?

Not rocket science, is it.

SO STOP DOING IT NOW STEPHIE. RIGHT NOW. NO EXCUSES. STOP IT. FOREVER.

And I’m referring this post to DPF so he knows what you do and he’s got the evidence above, so the next time you do it your victim can report you in the safe knowledge DPF knows exactly who you are.

SPC

Reid, what about accurately “attributing” responsibility in more general matters, or would that compromise partisan debate too much? It would certainly make it hard to entertain the latest CT as a topic.