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Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Hi folks.
Just recently , quite accidentally i have found an quite shocking matter, that tells about killing the ethnical GErmans in Poland near Danzig.
Don't missunderstand me, i m not going to spread nazis view on history, nor advocating its own behaviour in Poland. I don't claim this is true, i just want to know.
The photos are herehttp://s-mahat.ru/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cont=69http://s-mahat.ru/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cont=70
The GErman newspaper that describe the events
The source claims there were killed up to 55 000 of ethnical germans in Danzig, right after GErman invasion to Poland in september.
What is here the true and what is the propogand?

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

The number of 55000 victims was pure Nazi propaganda. Still today historians are at strife about the real numbers which according to different researchers differs from 4000 - 13000 killed ethnic Germans during the first days of the war (with the Bromberg Bloody Sunday as a climax).

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Originally Posted by flamethrowerguy

The number of 55000 victims was pure Nazi propaganda. Still today historians are at strife about the real numbers which according to different researchers differs from 4000 - 13000 killed ethnic Germans during the first days of the war (with the Bromberg Bloody Sunday as a climax).

so it's really happend!
The ethnic mass murdering of civils is definitely Genocide.But interesting - was those action the resaul ot special order of polish authorities or it was "people's action" kinda mass antisemitic pogroms?

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Originally Posted by sarge94

Well, considering that the Poles were not really happy about the germans,...

They never were, don't forget that there were violations of ethnic Germans long before Germany invaded - and I'm not talking about incidents faked by the Nazis. The occurences of early September 1939 have just been the negative climax.

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Originally Posted by Chevan

so it's really happend!
The ethnic mass murdering of civils is definitely Genocide.But interesting - was those action the resaul ot special order of polish authorities or it was "people's action" kinda mass antisemitic pogroms?

Who knows? German and Polish savants are still arguing if ethnic German civilians in Poland started firing upon retreating Polish forces or not. The Polish claim that this would have been the main reason for the atrocities...

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Originally Posted by flamethrowerguy

Who knows? German and Polish savants are still arguing if ethnic German civilians in Poland started firing upon retreating Polish forces or not. The Polish claim that this would have been the main reason for the atrocities...

The farmers start to fire at retreating polish army???
I admit the few germans might to take the firearms and start to resist( as it was in Western Ukraine in 1941) But entire the families?
Anyway the mass murdering the woman and children can't be justified by the actions of resistence.This is Ethnic genocide.
This remind me what happend in Volun in 1943- the poles themself had become the victims of UPA atrocities.
BTW do you - were there the victims among the Polish civils in Blomberg too?

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Originally Posted by Chevan

BTW do you - were there the victims among the Polish civils in Blomberg too?

No, there aren't any Polish civilian casualties mentioned. Polish sources speak of 250-300 Polish soldiers that were killed by German shooters. The Poles claim that these people were "fifth column" members and disguised SS men along the civilians. However, there are no documents or information available about German sabotage forces etc. in this area by that time.

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Originally Posted by flamethrowerguy

No, there aren't any Polish civilian casualties mentioned. Polish sources speak of 250-300 Polish soldiers that were killed by German shooters. The Poles claim that these people were "fifth column" members and disguised SS men along the civilians. However, there are no documents or information available about German sabotage forces etc. in this area by that time.

Well , two points come into consideration.
1.The hands of many victims were tied behind - those people were probably arrested before death.Usialy during the bloody pogroms crowd didn't tied the victims.
2. there were no killed polish civils among the victims. Only supposed polish soldiers.
That makes me to conclide that there were aspecial organized action of Polish army and probably ..police.The murdering of civils looks like the cruel antipartisan action , kinda that what widely were spread later.
Anyway, that crime, organized by polish authorities, migh be an perfect pretext for Hitler to start later the Genocide against poles themself.

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Originally Posted by Chevan

Anyway, that crime, organized by polish authorities, migh be an perfect pretext for Hitler to start later the Genocide against poles themself.

The atrocities the Poles committed against the Germans before and during the September invasion has always fascinated me, mostly because I can't find a Pole who will ever admit to such things. (I went to Chicago last week to try my luck, but nothing came of it; the Poles are stubborn to a tee, even when presented with reliable facts and figures.)

Ever since Germany lost a large chunk of her Baltic sea coast in the Versailles treaty, minority issues became a major bone of contention between the two countries. The Poles insisted that Germans were given a right to their language, religion, etc, but the Germans stated otherwise. I don't know whether the Poles or Germans were right (I never visited Danzig to observe first-hand; the city was miles from where I lived, and the train rates too expensive), but I do understand that during the September campaign many Poles openly killed German civilians in Danzig.

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Originally Posted by flamethrowerguy

No, there aren't any Polish civilian casualties mentioned. Polish sources speak of 250-300 Polish soldiers that were killed by German shooters. The Poles claim that these people were "fifth column" members and disguised SS men along the civilians. However, there are no documents or information available about German sabotage forces etc. in this area by that time.

I have seen it written that some Polish "researchers" claim that there were, among the Germans what the Poles describe as "SS men". I have also seen debate written that the "SS men" were in fact Brandenburg Division personnel.
Now, I openly admit I have not myself researched this topic greatly, in regard to the specific atrocities against German civilians as committed by Poles.

However, whilst reading the information I've posted of above, I also recalled that the Brandenburg Division units which *would* have been involved did not in fact at that moment in time exist as an operational force: Said units were in fact in the very earliest stages of recruitment and establishing TOE. This info from a book on the Brandenburg Division still in my possession.

Similarly, at the relevant moment in time, there would manifestly NOT have been SS men in combat situations, because those units had also not at that time been officially established.

All of which means that it (if logic devoid of emotionality be followed) appears that the Poles did in fact commit genocidal crimes against German civilians, and later attempted to justify those crimes by falsely attributing to the Germans the presence of either SS units, or Brandenburg Division units, or both.

As I am neither pro-German, pro-Polish (and I am at the same time attempting to show appropriate respect to both nationalities), nor revisionist, I can only conclude that the atrocities as recorded did in fact occur, albeit at that time most likely with the lower-cited death toll recorded.

I also note the eerie parallel with the killing of ethnic German civilians in similar regions in late 1944 early 1945, again generally (and reliably, I believe) attributed to the Poles.
All in all, I see it as part of the brutality of war, necessary or otherwise, justified or otherwise.
Humanity is at times a brutal species. Our entire history proves that.