Examining those things which intersect with the walk of the believer in this life.
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Friday, March 21, 2014

Colloquium I: The Calvinist and Non-Calvinist

Non-Calvinist Christian: Christ died for every human being in history, past, present and future.

Calvinist Christian: That’s impossible. If Jesus died for them, they would be saved. It doesn’t make sense that Christ paid the price for their sins but when they die they have to go pay for their sins. Jesus only died for those who get saved.

Non-Calvinist Christian: So you’re saying that if Jesus died for them they would automatically be saved?

Calvinist: Well, they still have to believe the gospel, no one is automatically saved.

Non-Calvinist: Wait. Earlier you argued that if someone goes to hell it’s because Jesus did not die for them but now it is because they did not believe. You have two answers here. Which is it?

Calvinist: What I mean is that it doesn’t make sense, any rational sense, for God to suffer for someone’s sins if they are not going to believe on Christ. God doesn’t waste himself like that. Therefore, it stands to reason he only died for those who will believe, the elect.

Non-Calvinist: Right, God never pours out his love, mercy and grace in an overflowing manner. He isn’t like that at all. He’s more like you, a human rationalist, who only does what makes sense because God is like that. God wouldn’t waste his love, mercy and grace on just anyone, only those who will receive it. After all, we have absolutely no example of God going to such extents for anyone in the Bible

Calvinist: Now you’re twisting my words.

Non-Calvinist: No, I am applying them and agreeing with their conclusion, at least rhetorically, to make a point of the absurdity of your claim.

Calvinist: No you’re not.

Non-Calvinist: So you agree, God does in fact extend himself to those who he knows will reject him, is this correct?

Calvinist: Yes, sometimes, but not in the case of Jesus dying for people’s sins.

Non-Calvinist: And this exception to the seemingly obvious over-extending nature of God is because why, again?

Calvinist: Because it does not make sense. God wouldn’t waste dying for those who would not accept his gift. That would mean he suffered for nothing.

Non-Calvinist: I thought we just covered this. You agreed God does this in the Bible, extending his grace over and over to people who do not receive it, so your argument that “it does not make sense” is gone. You cannot argue that anymore because you just agreed there are some examples of this in the Bible.

Calvinist: Yeah, but what about the elect in Ephesians, it says God chose who would be saved, doesn't it?

Non-Calvinist: No it doesn’t. It actually says nothing about God choosing who would be in Christ, rather that “in him” (Jesus) God chose us (those who believe on Christ) to be made holy and blameless. He chose the means of our salvation, Christ. A little patience with the sentence structure would help you stop making that erroneous claim.

Calvinist: Are you sure?

Non-Calvinist: Feel free to take your Greek NT with the English translation to any University Greek or English Professor and ask him/her to diagram the sentence. You’d be amazed how wrong the Calvinist claim is. By the way, don’t feel bad, few Calvinists have ever taken the time to diagram the sentences in Ephesians, never mind accept the explications of the diagram on their exegesis and theology.

Calvinist: Hmmm…wait, listen. If Jesus died for the sins of people who don’t believe, then why do they have to pay for their sins? That still does not make sense to me.

Non-Calvinist: Let me ask you a question. What was required for you to be saved, for Jesus to die for your sins, only, or for Jesus to pay for your sins and you believe that?

Calvinist: Oh, I had to believe.

Non-Calvinist: Okay, you just resolved your own quandary. People who do not accept the gift, don’t have it applied to their account. Hence, they must suffer for their own sins.

Remember, you had to believe didn’t you? Jesus dying for your sins didn’t automatically save you. You still had to believe, right? And for a reason. The reason is that is where and how this sacrifice by Jesus is applied to your account.

2 comments:

If only it were that simple! (Getting a Calvinist to say 'Wow', I mean!) Instead, they will start calling you names (Semi-Pelagian, Pelagian, etc.). It seems to me that when the rhetoric descends to name calling the argument is lost.

Alex's Tiny Bio

I am a "pedestrian Christian" and am enjoying my journey, particularly with my dear partner and spouse. Our family banner reads:
"Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God." Psalm 20:7. At the bottom of the blog you will find more about The Pedestrian Christian. To contact me please use the comments section.

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The Pedestrian Christian's Path

I have been a believer in Christ for over 30 years and along the way my path has introduced me to some most unimaginable experiences. And from that I have come away with the greatest of all certainties; in the end where I am headed is where I came from which is Christ Jesus. So with some experience, a teaching gift and mild writing abilities my objective is to take such assets and hope to be an illuminating source for others.

I am a Protestant with baptistic and Lutheran leanings (though I reject any form of sacramental regeneration) with dispensationalistic views. I have an undergraduate degree in Biblical studies from which I have aggressively but colloquially pursued additional theological development and training.

I formerly inclined myself toward Reformed theology and Calvinism but now, through comprehensive exegetical/theological studies, reject the rationalism of Augustinian/Reformed/Calvinistic (ARC) theologies as well as certain by-products of these two centers.

However, with that said I also recognize that no one school of theology is without weaknesses and many schools offer virtuous contributions in areas where there are no contentions. Therefore, I acknowledge the augmentation of many schools and their theologians which are of other persuasions seeing that we have many things in common. So I use many sources with discretion while possibly taking issue with these on other occasions.

I generally prefer a polemic style in my arguments but do try to engage apologetically often enough to endear my writings to a broader audience. However, as you read you will find most often my theological measures being contentions with specific teachings by either a school or Teacher of Scripture.

I also participate in social and political treatments but far less often than those of theology. And as for the regulation of my contributions, I do not anticipate having time for constant contributions but those I do make I will strive to endow them with material which is satisfying, challenging and engaging.