Genevieve Marie:rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: violentsalvation: rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.

I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.

... how are terms like "rape culture" a divisive sideshow when the issue we're talking about is a culture that blames victims of rape and makes excuses for rapists?

Also, I didn't even mention "rape culture". Bringing it up as a deflection is just another way of making excuses to avoid dealing with the problem.

Yup. Typical concern troll derailing of the subject.

"I agree with you there's a problem, but we can only talk about it in terms that I am comfortable with which sidestep that problem and don't acknowledge this exists, and somehow, this will solve everything."

Yup, I'm a troll, OKAY. I was trying to sidestep you, guess that didn't work. Sorry if you think our culture inherently condones rape. But there are plenty of us who want to help and change things without trodding on a pile of neofeministic bullshiat like "rape culture".

violentsalvation:Yup, I'm a troll, OKAY. I was trying to sidestep you, guess that didn't work. Sorry if you think our culture inherently condones rape. But there are plenty of us who want to help and change things without trodding on a pile of neofeministic bullshiat like "rape culture".

sigh

I'm going to bed. Take care.

I should have probably phrased that differently and used the verb instead of the noun, but what you were doing is generally referred to as concern trolling. It's not the same thing as trolling in general- it's professing to be concerned about an issue, but then objecting to how others address that issue without offering a better alternative or a reasoned criticism.

And yes, our culture inherently condones rape. That's the entire issue here. That's what this case was all about. You should be able to look at what happened here and at least acknowledge that these young men were surrounded by adults who were more interested in preserving the status quo than they were in doing what was right. That none of them had been taught basic ideas about sexual consent.

This is something feminists have been discussing for years and years and years- but generally, when we make that point, it gets laughed off as "neofeministic bullshiat" and people deny that it exists. And then when a case pops up that shows that we've got a point, people react by criticizing how we make that point.

It's a bit exhausting. If you're actually interested in helping to change that cultural attitude, maybe you should stop writing off other people's opinions just because they're not phrased in a way that's designed to make you comfortable.

Genevieve Marie:violentsalvation: Yup, I'm a troll, OKAY. I was trying to sidestep you, guess that didn't work. Sorry if you think our culture inherently condones rape. But there are plenty of us who want to help and change things without trodding on a pile of neofeministic bullshiat like "rape culture".

sigh

I'm going to bed. Take care.

I should have probably phrased that differently and used the verb instead of the noun, but what you were doing is generally referred to as concern trolling. It's not the same thing as trolling in general- it's professing to be concerned about an issue, but then objecting to how others address that issue without offering a better alternative or a reasoned criticism.

And yes, our culture inherently condones rape. That's the entire issue here. That's what this case was all about. You should be able to look at what happened here and at least acknowledge that these young men were surrounded by adults who were more interested in preserving the status quo than they were in doing what was right. That none of them had been taught basic ideas about sexual consent.

This is something feminists have been discussing for years and years and years- but generally, when we make that point, it gets laughed off as "neofeministic bullshiat" and people deny that it exists. And then when a case pops up that shows that we've got a point, people react by criticizing how we make that point.

It's a bit exhausting. If you're actually interested in helping to change that cultural attitude, maybe you should stop writing off other people's opinions just because they're not phrased in a way that's designed to make you comfortable.

I realized I had to do a bunch of ironing for the coming week, so I'm still up, and just typing this I'm remembering I need to fill up the dog water pails. I'll do what I can, GM. I'm trying to teach kids to pitch for my church's youth baseball team, they're young adults really. I will see to it I get a "respect the no" speech in.

I really do want to help, even though we disagree a whole hell of a lot.

violentsalvation:I realized I had to do a bunch of ironing for the coming week, so I'm still up, and just typing this I'm remembering I need to fill up the dog water pails. I'll do what I can, GM. I'm trying to teach kids to pitch for my church's youth baseball team, they're young adults really. I will see to it I get a "respect the no" speech in.

I really do want to help, even though we disagree a whole hell of a lot.

And that's awesome and I respect the hell out of that. Throw in a "And it's never ok to call a girl a whore" speech too if you can.

Honestly, I think if you spent some time really reading about what feminists mean when they say rape culture, you wouldn't find the term nearly as loaded or as offensive. It sounds like to some degree, you do recognize it, you just don't use that term.

When it comes down to it, when it takes Anonymous, who are hardly the paragons of virtue and good taste, raising a stink for anything to happen, it demonstrates just how messed up our culture is. If something appalls them, you know it's bad, yet the media didn't give a crap until Anonymous made it too big of a story to go away.

feckingmorons:That is brilliant. It is so simple, yet people think it is a joke.

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.

Yup. Just like that old joke about Sam, the construction company owner, giving a speech at a party:"You know," he laments to his friends, "over the years I have constructed dozens of enormous projects in and around this city, but am I known as Sam the Builder? No. "And over the years I have contributed literally millions of dollars to charitable causes of one sort or another, but am I called Sam the Philanthropist? No, sir. "But suck one little cock..."

cman:Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.

Same. See: Any thread ever where a feminist points out that we need to teach sexual consent to teenagers, i.e. that women need to be taught that it's ok to say yes when we want to have sex and that young men need to be taught to firmly respect a "no".

The idea that men need to be taught not to rape makes people furious, but I mean... watch the video embedded in this link. The young men talking clearly haven't been taught not to rape. They haven't been taught to respect sexual boundaries. And the scary part is they aren't out of the ordinary! These guys remind me of numerous boys I knew in high school and college.

I hate to say this, but rape is part of humanity. It is an aspect of the animal kingdom as well. Even though we are an enlightened species we still have those who either dont care about others or those who have no self control. How do you teach ag ...

I just heard something vaguely disturbing about this. According to something that was just on a local news story, this girl was raped at "several" parties over the course of several days. Not to even remotely say that the guys weren't wrong to do what they did, but .. this girl needs some help, too.

Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.

They may be on the right side of things, but Fox's story is just as much BS as the others. If it hadn't been two young black men, and was instead two young, promising white conservatives who had just gotten into Liberty Univ. I guarantee Fox would be playing an entirely different side.

If something like this had happened to one of my sisters, the rapists would not have had a sentencing hearing to cry in.

Oh, there would have been a brief trial. One or both of my parents would have stood trial for shooting the motherfarking rapist scum to death. Their defense would have been "Yes, we did it. We were right to do it. Given the same circumstances, we'd do it again. Fark you if you don't like it."

INeedAName:They may be on the right side of things, but Fox's story is just as much BS as the others. If it hadn't been two young black men, and was instead two young, promising white conservatives who had just gotten into Liberty Univ. I guarantee Fox would be playing an entirely different side.

Yes, Fox is racist.

The way they just have preconceptions of folks and judge them not by their actions but by the conceptions that they hold.... those bastards.

GopherGuts:If something like this had happened to one of my sisters, the rapists would not have had a sentencing hearing to cry in.

Oh, there would have been a brief trial. One or both of my parents would have stood trial for shooting the motherfarking rapist scum to death. Their defense would have been "Yes, we did it. We were right to do it. Given the same circumstances, we'd do it again. Fark you if you don't like it."

If it happened to me, I'd be seriously tempted to acquire a shiat-ton of weapons go all revenge-epic on the parties involved.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

"The accused planned to buy a home in No Rape County, Utah- however, the county has numerous schools, and it is unlikely he will be able to find a home more than 500 yards from school property. It is currently unknown where he plans to move once he leaves prison." -five news stations

"Man, what's the guy's CURRENT house going to be worth when he gets out? #plansruined #farkfeminism" -twitter

Laws protect the identity of the victim. The journalists aren't allowed to know all the details of her life or interview her etc. Is someone like that even a real person to a journalist?

In a sense - yes - these boys are victims. But we need to be very clear with ourselves as to what they are victims of.They are not victims of a slutty girl, or an over zealous prosecutor.They are victims of a society adrift, whose values have grown warped. A society that told them they could do whatever they wanted as long as they pertformed well on the all-important playing field. A society that didn't bother to even try to teach them anything about being men - as opposed to merely male apes.A society that taught them that sex is a commodity, and just another form of power to be abused.To his credit, in court one of the boy's fathers had the stones to tearfully admit that maybe if he had found the time to be there for his son, things might have ended differently.And it is probably too late for them. Our record of rehabilitating teen sociopaths is very poor - I doubt that they have much more of a chance than the average gangbanger (of the OTHER kind) who shoots somebody and gets caught. But yeah - they are victims.

If we(and by "we" I mean us largely male Farkers) take anything away from this, it needs to be that we need to be fathers to our sons, and teach them to be men. We can't blame the women in their lives for our failure to do that.Like the man said : "Raise you motherf**kin' kids".

Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.

jso2897:In a sense - yes - these boys are victims. But we need to be very clear with ourselves as to what they are victims of.They are not victims of a slutty girl, or an over zealous prosecutor.They are victims of a society adrift, whose values have grown warped. A society that told them they could do whatever they wanted as long as they pertformed well on the all-important playing field. A society that didn't bother to even try to teach them anything about being men - as opposed to merely male apes.A society that taught them that sex is a commodity, and just another form of power to be abused.To his credit, in court one of the boy's fathers had the stones to tearfully admit that maybe if he had found the time to be there for his son, things might have ended differently.And it is probably too late for them. Our record of rehabilitating teen sociopaths is very poor - I doubt that they have much more of a chance than the average gangbanger (of the OTHER kind) who shoots somebody and gets caught. But yeah - they are victims.

If we(and by "we" I mean us largely male Farkers) take anything away from this, it needs to be that we need to be fathers to our sons, and teach them to be men. We can't blame the women in their lives for our failure to do that.Like the man said : "Raise you motherf**kin' kids".

No. They are not victims. I understand the point you are trying to make, and I respect your opinion, but I must disagree. When life sets you on a course that puts you in this situation, you STILL must make a decision as to what you should do.

kingoomieiii:Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

From Gawker-

For readers interested in learning more about how not to be labeled as registered sex offenders, a good first step is not to rape unconscious women, no matter how good your grades are. Regardless of the strength of your GPA (weighted or unweighted), if you commit rape, there is a possibility you may someday be convicted of a sex crime. This is because of your decision to commit a sex crime instead of going for a walk, or reading a book by Cormac McCarthy. Your ability to perform calculus or play football is generally not taken into consideration in a court of law. Should you prefer to be known as "Good student and excellent football player Trent Mays" rather than "Convicted sex offender Trent Mays," try stressing the studying and tackling and giving the sex crimes a miss altogether.

cman:kingoomieiii: The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

That is kind of a difficult subject for discussion on news stations.

Most times news organizations dont name the victims of sexual assault, especially when they are minors.

It is very likely that the people who are on news TV (such as pundits) have no basic information. What do we know about her? She's 16 and she went to a party and got drunk. Not much to go on.

basemetal:I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.

I'm sorry but there is something about this line that bothers me. It's an important thing to teach, don't get me wrong, but shouldn't you first teach that it is highly immoral and unethical to rape? Shouldn't we teach that rape is bad because we, as human beings, are equals and no one should have power over another in such a way?

Genevieve Marie:rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

DataShade:Laws protect the identity of the victim. The journalists aren't allowed to know all the details of her life or interview her etc. Is someone like that even a real person to a journalist?

This. Obviously the anchors went overboard in their pity party, but in a lot of sex assault cases reporters are either legally or ethically prevented from reporting very much about the victims. Thats going to influence the stories that get writen.

Genevieve Marie:violentsalvation: Yup, I'm a troll, OKAY. I was trying to sidestep you, guess that didn't work. Sorry if you think our culture inherently condones rape. But there are plenty of us who want to help and change things without trodding on a pile of neofeministic bullshiat like "rape culture".

sigh

I'm going to bed. Take care.

I should have probably phrased that differently and used the verb instead of the noun, but what you were doing is generally referred to as concern trolling. It's not the same thing as trolling in general- it's professing to be concerned about an issue, but then objecting to how others address that issue without offering a better alternative or a reasoned criticism.

And yes, our culture inherently condones rape. That's the entire issue here. That's what this case was all about. You should be able to look at what happened here and at least acknowledge that these young men were surrounded by adults who were more interested in preserving the status quo than they were in doing what was right. That none of them had been taught basic ideas about sexual consent.

This is something feminists have been discussing for years and years and years- but generally, when we make that point, it gets laughed off as "neofeministic bullshiat" and people deny that it exists. And then when a case pops up that shows that we've got a point, people react by criticizing how we make that point.

It's a bit exhausting. If you're actually interested in helping to change that cultural attitude, maybe you should stop writing off other people's opinions just because they're not phrased in a way that's designed to make you comfortable.

So I'm curious, how does a male like myself who grew up with a father that didn't constantly tell me not to rape women make well into adult hood without raping anyone? Am I a statistical anomaly?

I know the numbers, what's it like 1/3 or 1/6 women will be the victim of sexual assault? What I'd like to see is the % o men who will commit a sexual assault. I think that number is far lower. I think women should scream it from the mountain tips I they have been victimized, but I also think they are their own worst enemies when they falsely accuse. And yes, I realize the number if false accusations is far lower and almost minuscule in comparison to the unreported cases.

ekdikeo4:I just heard something vaguely disturbing about this. According to something that was just on a local news story, this girl was raped at "several" parties over the course of several days. Not to even remotely say that the guys weren't wrong to do what they did, but .. this girl needs some help, too.

There were several parties that spanned a single night. She was no longer in control of herself (couldn't walk or talk) by the second party and was unconscious by the third (two players were dragging her in and out).

There's some speculation that date rapes drugs were used but there girl learned about her own violation from twitter so there was very little chemical evidence left to collect via a drug test.

The boys belonged to you Rape Squad. A name they gave themselves before that night.

It's quite likely that they've raped before. This girl was an outsider and stepped forward.

WaitWhatWhy:cman: kingoomieiii: The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

That is kind of a difficult subject for discussion on news stations.

Most times news organizations dont name the victims of sexual assault, especially when they are minors.

It is very likely that the people who are on news TV (such as pundits) have no basic information. What do we know about her? She's 16 and she went to a party and got drunk. Not much to go on.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

Why be an apologist for these 'journalists'? They insist on giving us opinion rather than news. Journalism is dead in this country, we have hand wringing actors who bring us snippets of news cloaked in opinion and maudlin sentimentality.

The number of rapes that occur from habitual offenders (previously unreported is staggering, upwards of 90%. Of course this means that 9 out of 10 rapes can be blamed on the rapist's last victim. (statistics are a biatch)

Girls, here are some tips:

1. Only YOU can stop your own rape2. REPORT IMMEDIATELY. You can stop the next rape.3. You will know the rapist4. You will trust the rapist5. No one other than you cares about you. Please take care of yourselves.

feckingmorons:I don't really watch any of the cable news stations (or broadcast news stations in the US for that matter) save the local cable one. Not that you can see this because you ignore opinions that are not in lockstep with yours.

It's sad that I have to go abroad to get good news channels. When I traveled to Germany and India the BBC was amazing. They actually did reporting. On the world. And I don't think I heard a single word about the Kardashians.

I can remember being a hormone-filled teenager and there were dumb girls around who would get shiatfaced drunk at parties but the idea of raping them never came up so blaming this on youth is stupid. In fact the attitude was usually just the opposite in that basically everyone stayed away as it felt like doing anything with them in that state was opening a door to a world of trouble. These two thought they were above the rules because of their status which is why they went ahead and did what they did.