DragonBall is Owned by TOEI ANIMATION, Ltd. and Licensed by FUNimation Productions, Ltd.. All Rights Reserved. DragonBall, DragonBall Z, DragonBall GT and all logos, character names and distinctive likenesses thereof are trademarks of TOEI ANIMATION, Ltd. This is nothing more than a parody made for entertainment purposes only.

DragonBall is Owned by TOEI ANIMATION, Ltd. and Licensed by FUNimation Productions, Ltd.. All Rights Reserved. DragonBall, DragonBall Z, DragonBall GT and all logos, character names and distinctive likenesses thereof are trademarks of TOEI ANIMATION, Ltd. This is nothing more than a parody made for entertainment purposes only.

You guys brushed Buus feats off like they were nothing… Freiza might have had all those possessions but Buu literally murdered Gods… for fun…

But I agree Freiza is that dude.

sonic10chaosverse

maybe for the next dbcember you can do a list about your favorite dragon ball videogames

Paul Dunbar

Platinum Cell?! That sounds wicked!

Deecks

Best part is, he’s got Freeza genes. He could totally pull it off. Really, Cell never even came close to hitting his full potential, because his genes and techniques were based on when Gero last gathered them (which was Saiyan Saga Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo et al, plus Freeza) and he himself was only alive for about two weeks.

Would monster carrot be the strongest character in GT? i know characters like frieza and beerus are incredibly strong, but there are just some characters that have insanely strong powers, if monster carrot fought freizaa then monster carrot might even win, just because freiza might touch him. Same with the devil man if freiza was foolish enough to let himself get hit by it because he’s so full of his own power then he would die. its like how goku got killed in resurection F by a fking blaster

Deecks

If Vegito’s any indication, it’s possible that if there’s a really big power gap, a fighter can ignore the trick. So he could turn Freeza into a carrot, but the carrot would then beat him up.

Super disappointed that you guys didn’t talk about how Monster Carrot was such a threat, it took Master Roshi blowing up the moon to bring him down for good. (What, you thought him blowing up the moon was about stopping Goku? Please.)

Which, interestingly enough, is Master Roshi’s only confirmed kill in the franchise, if I recall correctly.

GreatWyrmGold

I know I’m going to get a lot of hate for this, but…I don’t think Frieza is that good of a villain.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think he’s at Super 17 levels of bad. Frieza has style, he has panache, he has spectacle. He also doesn’t have anything actively stupid about his character, backstory, or motivation. That puts him above many of Dragon Ball’s villains. But he suffers in many other areas.
Frieza is just…two-dimensional. He’s an evil, sadistic emperor. He’s more evil and more sadistic than anyone before him, sure, but that doesn’t really make him more interesting, just more of a threat. His motivations are poorly-fleshed-out; he wants immortality because he wants to keep doing what he’s been doing, I guess? He’s just bland. His backstory is utterly unremarkable, and barely exists; he can’t get any points there. Frieza is Space Napolahitler, and that’s it.
Don’t get me wrong, a lot of other villains in Dragon Ball have these same flaws…but I rate them pretty low, too.

The only argument left is impact on the series, and…well…I’m having trouble thinking of stuff which both lasts outside his arc and couldn’t be replaced by anyone else.
1. He’s technically Vegeta’s boss, the reason Goku is on Earth, and all of that…but all of that works without Frieza. Given Toriyama’s writing style, I’m willing to bet he intended it to work without Frieza until that very arc.
2. He triggered Goku’s first Super Saiyan…but it would have worked as well to have it triggered any other time, by anyone else. Arguably, it would have made more sense for Nappa to have triggered it. (Krillin is one friend, the guys Nappa killed are many friends.) Regardless, I can’t attribute SSJ to Frieza the character—and I’m not sure I’d put that in favor of Frieza the arc, given how little impact SSJ ultimately had beyond escalating the power levels of the series.
3. Transformations! Yeah, this can almost single-handedly be attributed to Frieza…but putting aside how Zarbon, Garlic Jr, and arguably Saiyan oozarus transformed before Frieza lifted a finger in the main plot, you could have had any villain kick off transformations.
4. Frieza killed Krillin. This might have had more impact if it meant more than Krillin sitting around in the afterlife for a few months, playing cards with King Kai and company.

I guess I’m just not impressed by what Frieza brings to the table. He’s a dull, flat, mustache-twirling psychopath who brings a lot of style to the table but little substance. His own minions outshine him, in my book.

Orphenoc

Definitely entitled to your opinion, but in rebuttal why I would put Freeza against any villain from any other series.
1. Maybe you’re right in that AT intended it to work without Freeza, but everything that happens on Namek is specifically due to Freeza and it was when the series polled best in Japan. As much as I love the cell saga, the time travel angle kind of pawned off on the popularity of Terminator and T2. Namek was all original.
2. Nappa killed many friends but none of them were killed with Goku watching, all were in the midst of battle (chaotzu blew himself up) and none were as close to Goku as Krillin. If you read early chapters/watch the original, they were definitely best friends, like the dynamic duo from the 21st Bodukai on.
3. He may be the first one to use it to restrict his power because he can’t control it. As in his final form is his original form. Zarbon was to hide his hideousness, whereas the saiyans transform as a boost. While Golden Freeza and 100% aren’t sustainable, his 4th form is actually hs natural state.
4. See point 2. As far as we knew at this point Krillin had died twice and couldnt be wished back …everyone who died on Earth could except chiaotzu- who actually blew himself up, so even if Goku saw it, he wouldn’t react like on Namek

I think Freeza is made more imposing by his minions and how he runs his organization. His portrayal by Ryusei Nakao is a staple, and probably the defining moment in Nakao’s (who has done something like 250 voices over the years..most since Freeza). The fact that Vegeta himself had so much bottled up inside and was defined largely by his relationship with Freeza and his organization counts for a lot. As many times as we’ve seen Vegeta’s pride destroyed (Goku, Zarbon, Recoome, 18, Cell, Gohan) none are anywhere near as brutal as Freeza (Save Brolly ;)).

Royal Conquest

Beerus and Whis sure have him jumping through hoops these days as well. Poor Vegeta has to swallow his pride a lot hahahah

Orphenoc

Lol, true. But he’s changed. I suppose the old him might do some of that anyway but not to protect anyone else the way he did his family just himself was feelin threatened

GreatWyrmGold

1. Very little happened in the Frieza arc which had an impact on the rest of the series.
2. Alright, but my point was that Super Saiyan could have been introduced by anyone. There’s nothing special about Frieza that enabled it.
3. …I’m not sure what relevance this has.
4. “Are you forgetting what all of this was about? We have two sets of Dragon Balls now!”
5. Frieza has some good minions, but he’s boring in and of himself. I’m not sure what you mean by “how he runs his organization”.
6. Being a staple of Nakao’s career just means he’s popular.
7. Eh…I’m not terribly impressed by an argument which boils down to “Frieza beats up Vegeta worse than anyone else”.

Orphenoc

1. You sure? What arcs had more of an impact? Gero monitored all of Goku’s activities on earth and had his plans foiled because he missed namek. Ssj started there. Even before ssj everyone’s PL climbed like never before there. The biggest known threat in the universe was “defeated there”. Excluding filler Arlia we had the first in series planet destruction there (excluding Vegeta since it’s not in series). The namekians are introduced and rather than coming in as a random deus ex machina actually make sense in the plot when they are needed in the cell and buu saga.
2. He’s pure evil. I don’t think anyone else could have pushed Goku to that point. Buu is a goof, any part of Cell that doesn’t want to fight comes from Freeza, the androids are horrible in the future but their present versions just want to have fun without caring who dies, Vegeta is ruthless but even he has his redeeming factors. Others than piccolo’s father, who was born from all the evil in Kami, no one comes close. And even he didn’t go around personally ordering the killing of children (he might blow them up in a wide blast that killed many but Freeza is basically dragon ball’s Hitler).
3. Your third point was transformations are cliche or something like that. Just pointing out what makes Freezas unique and original throughout manga, not just db.
4. I’m aware. The point is the heroes didn’t know when they went to namek that the other set could bring back people who’d already died, granted 3 wishes and other than not being able to bring back more than one person at a time were more powerful. As far as Goku knew Krillin was gone for good.
5. We’ve seen other orgs run, even those with evil minions like mercenary tao. RR was still a goofy organization overall in part because it was headed by a bit of a goof. Freeza runs a tight ship with hundreds of planets, and not just through power. Even with Buu at his disposal I can’t see Babidi making a better universal ruler. He doesn’t need the likes of the saiyans or even the goofy Ginyu force but he manages them effectively to spread his influence. For all we know his dad had as much power but you don’t hear Beerus mentioning Cold
6. I’ll give you that. Though I think it has more to do with how memorable and fitting his voice acting was.
7. It’s not just how badly he was beaten (I was joking about Brolly though he did have Vegeta reacting like we’ve never seen). Vegeta’s master plan was revenge against Freeza for the death of his people. Though he seemed like he didn’t care his whole speech to Goku while dying was about it. Freeza reduced him to a crying mess. The number 2 villain in the series and the biggest ball of pride I’ve seen (outside of mha’s bakugou who I assume is Vegeta inspired in part) utterly broken by Freeza as Gohan, krillin and Piccolo watch in horror. That’s got to count for something. Everyone else I mentioned beat the hell out of Vegeta (except Gohan unless you mean mentally). But no one else broke him. If he’s the number 1 villain without Freeza that’s gotta count for something.

GreatWyrmGold

1. I don’t count power level increases, because I’m analyzing this from a Doylist perspective rather than a Watsonian one. From a Doylist perspective, the androids and Cell would have challenged Goku et all exactly as much with or without SSJ. And as the King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr arcs revealed, showing Namek isn’t required for showing Namekians.
2. …I don’t get your point. “Only a truly two-dimensional villain could awaken the dormant SSJ energies within Goku”?
3. Um, no. My point was that Frieza didn’t and didn’t have to introduce transformations into the series.
4. We’re getting off-track. This point was about what effect Frieza had on the plot, not the effect killing him might have had if Toriyama hadn’t introduced a wrinkle into the system at some point. (And I thought the ability of the Namekian Dragon Balls to resurrect people who had already been resurrected was established around the time the first wishes were made on it?)
5. …Again, I’m not sure what relevance this has to the quality of Frieza as a villain. Especially since everything we see of Frieza’s management style suggests that his empire shouldn’t be running nearly as well as it does.
7. You can say it has to count for something, but I disagree. Especially since I don’t think Vegeta is anywhere near the #2 villain slot. If we extend his villainous tenure into the Namek saga, he’s above-average, but he’s still nowhere near the top—for many of the same reasons as Frieza.

Orphenoc

1. Even leaving out the power level increases I think you may be taking Namek for granted. It took me years to appreciate it as well since when I caught up with the series we had just arrived here. In light of the entire series it’s a beautiful change of scenery, a place of significant plot development and character growth (Vegeta being broken and turned from villain to pseudo hero for one, Gohan fully maturing into a warrior from a scared reluctant fighter, and Goku showing a darker rage). If you take Namek out of the series I think you’d miss it in a way that isn’t readily apparent. Had the series ended at Namek, particularly with Goku dying to stop Freeza on a dying world I think you have an incredibly powerful ending that any other arc’s conclusion would have a hard time topping save perhaps the cell games (since part of the story is passing the torch…but remember the DB manga didn’t separate DB from DBZ so it was still the story of Goku, who at that point was the only 1 to fulfill the legendary super saiyajin-prophecy)…

2. Freeza’s not as lacking in personality as you say he is, at least not in Nakao’s portrayal. I heard the dub version second (with the female voice actor saying lines like “pop goes the weasel” and “I want to caress them”). If you’re only familiar with dub freeza you’ve done yourself a disservice. JP Freeza does a good job of fleshing out Freeza as a spoiled narcistic psycotic megalomaniac. Sure he doesn’t have many redeeming qualities if any, but he’s far from bland. Villains like Yakon, Babidi, any movie villain etc may have been bland and lacking in entertainment value, but Freeza is diabolical and knows what buttons to press to torture our heroes. Cell may have wanted to torture Gohan but that was to increase his power level for a good fight. Same with impatient Buu and the boys. Freeza kills Krillin and watches Goku with an evil smirk to hurt him, cut him, wound him viciously. He’s not the most powerful villain but he’s the most effective. It’s like Jurassic Park, if I had a choice of defenselessly facing off against a T-Rex or a raptor, I’d take my chances with the t-Rex. Freeza is the type of villain to slice you and watch your entrails fall out as you die in horror, not just bite your head off and end it. Look at how he shakes krillin on his horn.

3. Fair enough, though his are the most unique.

4. Maybe, but Goku wasn’t aware of it. And I’m pretty sure they were inert when Krillin died anyway.

5. I’m getting at crediting after a with the actions of his minions and assembling them to work together. Ruling through fear and with a keen interest in ruthless efficiency can have a powerful effect to get your people in line. Freeza is the perfect villain to carry this out. What other DB villain could you see orchestrating such a feat as the boss of all bosses of a galactic empire believably? (Though perhaps you don’t find this believable).

7. Just curious who would you put here as defining villains of the series? If I had to propose villains to square off against those from other comics as dynamic and engaging from the series, I think my order would be something like theirs, tho not exactly

GreatWyrmGold

1. I’m not talking about the quality of the arc—that’s another topic, and one not related to the quality of Frieza himself. (Well, the latter affects the former, but not the other way around.) I’m talking about the impact Frieza (and, more generally, the arc) had on the rest of the series.
2. I don’t care how well someone voices a spoiled narcistic psycotic megalomaniac if they’re still a two-dimensional heel. It might make them more bearable, and such voice actors for an interesting character can elevate the from good to unforgettable, but it’s not enough to make a dull character interesting.
5. Eh…all we see of his management is threatening to kill them when they mess up. And if you’re reduced to saying Frieza is a good villain because he bullies more interesting characters effectively, you’re not going to convince me.
7. Defining? King Piccolo. Best? Zamas or Beerus.

Orphenoc

1. Well the next major villain’s personality is strongly based on his. He’s the first to destroy a planet, he’s the reason Goku’s world was destroyed and kind of fills the backstory for the series.
2. Dull is a bit harsh. He’s got a bit of range from polite yet ruthless, to sadistic and cunning, to raging with anger and even begging for mercy while making it all believable.
5. Bullying makes it sound more bland than it is. He twists and torments them more effectively than anyone. Getting under Gohan, Vegeta and even Goku’s skin. He killed Dende, Cargo and who knows how many other kids. It’s something to be said about villains you hate, they’re evidence of the mangakas effectiveness.
7. King Piccolo was great but his master plan was kind of nonsensical and I think his ultimate wish was somewhat of a waste. Plus I don’t think he had the range of Freeza, but that was expected considering he was all the evil removed from the original Piccolo. Beerus and Zamasu are really a treat for post Z characters especially but Zamasu lacks something in execution to me. His ambition leads him to an empty universe in the anime. Where’s the fun in that? Compared to the GT characters he’s awesome to watch though and I hope the manga fleshes out his master plan better. Beerus is a great antagonist but more of a force of nature than a true villain. Hes like Godzilla more than Ghidorah

GreatWyrmGold

1. The first doesn’t seem relevant, the second is weak (especially considering that the inhabitants of said planet get a new one by the end of the arc), and the last two are problems that didn’t need to be solved.
2. I do find it dull. He’s not nuanced enough for his personality to interest me, and he’s not over-the-top enough for his audacity to interest me.
5. Anyone can make a dick that the reader hates. It’s not evidence of a mangaka’s effectiveness, any more than a character who’s as pure as driven snow. I mean, sure, you can mess both up, but it’s pretty simple to get them right (especially the first one).
7a. King Piccolo literally defined nearly every aspect of DBZ, from the inhuman threats to the action focus to the end-of-arc resurrection wish. Quality doesn’t enter it. (I consider him to be a step above most villains, if only for some basic pragmatism.)
7b. Zamasu doesn’t want an empty universe, just one without mortals. You might as well ask why humans want to get the black widows and centipedes out of their basement. And, to be blunt, the fact that he has a concrete motivation for his actions puts him above most Dragon Ball villains; far too many do evil to gain power and just use their power to do evil.
7c. I don’t see the problem with force-of-nature-type villains. And Beerus is definitely a villain; mundane forces of nature don’t have desires or goals or personalities.

Orphenoc

1. It’s relevant in that he’s defining if Cell’s bad side takes after him, at least in his perfect form (then all the transformations for him and buy to an extent). It’s like TFA noting his brother takes up two movies for a reason and he’s shown up in several movies and specials since. Personally I’m a bit tired of Freeza and think you may be too. But just as a one off on Namek and the Bardock special he was at his best. And regardless of the ultimate outcome (because who doesn’t get a new planet in dbz) it was a great show of power.

2. Nuanced for 2017 or for 1990 or even 2000? He’s probably the most over the top villain in dbz but if that’s not enough I think part of Nakanos popularity has to do with the amount of villains and anti-heroes that take after his personality in some regard. Whether Mayuri in Bleach or Ceasar Clown in One Piece he’s great in mad scientist roles as well because Freeza was powerful and intelligent yet quite mad. I think that sort of villain was nuanced when AT wrote db.

5. Ahh but he’s not simply a “dick”. He does these things for a reason. He kills Cargo to get his point across that there is no escape. He kills sense because he’s angry he’s been healing people and wants the heroes to despair that their trump card is gone. He destroys planet Vegeta out of fear of the super saiyajin legend. Krillin is out of pure malice for cutting part of his tail and then to make Goku suffer for the spirit bomb. He’s evil but he’s not vengeful for vengeance sake. He’s spoiled and wants what he wants but his personality is there. He comes to earth for revenge. He’s on namek because he was spying on Vegeta and Nappa and wants immortality. Other than his lust for power which can easily be explained by his upbringing as we see in his interactions with Cold and a desire to please daddy and expand the empire/outdo his family, his rationale makes more sense than Zamasu’s IMO. What did mortals ever do to Zamasu that would convince him to kill the Gods just to wipe us from existence too? He’s blind to any good mortals are capable of and seems totally unable to grasp any of his masters teachings. Freeza on the other hand never had a positive influence to begin with with enough power to stop him from descending on his path. With his “absolute power” it’s a wonder he has any manners at all.
7a. I see you meant that quite literally. And in that I’d agree but also note that roadmap was created in part by Tao pie pie. It’s almost like an extended mirror of that arc. Goku gets whooped by the villain, villain kills his friend(s), Goku climbs the tower for some holy water (only in the first time it’s a fake), and returns to destroy the villain and wish back his friend(s) with the dragonball. Even villain returns in some form in the 23rd.
7b. Not trying to spoil the manga for people who haven’t seen the anime but his ends do not justify his means. He kills his master and who knows how many other gods to do it. It seems like the only ones left besides himself are the god of everything and perhaps his servants. Hardly seems well planned but who am I to judge. Maybe he planned on repopulating the gods somehow.
7c. Well even Godzilla has a personality to an extent but I don’t know if you can classify him as evil. Beerus has a job to do in the universe and in the movie. He changes his mind on a whim or upon becoming interested in Goku, but this is a lot more like Galactus in Fantastic Four comics than Unicron in Transformers the movie. He’s not sending evil people to kill our heroes. He’s celebrating with them and his herald (whis) is as hard to characterize as a villain as the silver surfer. It could be argued if not for Buu pissing him off he wouldn’t want to blow up Earth to begin with. He’s a bit too fickle for our standards but he seems to take no joy out of killing people, at least not in the movie. Maybe in the DB super “filler”. But I’d more readily categorize him as an antagonist than a through and through villain which makes it hard for me to view him as the greatest villain in the series. One of the greatest characters is different. I think Dr Doom is a much better villain than Galactus. Then again Galactus has all the personality of wet bricks while Beerus is fun

GreatWyrmGold

1. Your explanation for why it’s relevant is little more than repeating your point.
2. Authors have been writing nuanced characters for milennia. Age doesn’t excuse anything.
5. First off, you’re missing the point. Second off…did you forget the Babari, and Zamas’s reaction to seeing SSJB Goku, and every other scene Zamas was in with Gowasu? Third, “Frieza is doing these things because he wants power for its own sake” is the single weakest and laziest motivation ever. Fourth, his choice of actions is motivated more by his narrative role as a villain than any practical concern (most prominent in how he treats his minions—every dictator needs to have a loyal army, even if they can kill any person they’re near). Fifth, Frieza’s inactions are as important as his actions, and those are just plain stupid.
7a. I’ll grant you the Tao note.
7b. Of course his ends don’t justify his means—he’s an outright villain, not an antihero. That’s not the point. The point is that he had concrete, explained ends that he was working towards.
7c-i. Godzilla is generally more of a wild animal than a person, especially in movies where he takes an antagonistic role. He’s only as evil as a hungry crocodile or rabid dog. Beerus is nothing like that; he is fully conscious of his actions and the implications, but does them anyways.
7c-ii. Beerus’s job is to destroy, but that’s not why he destroys. He destroys only planets and people that have personally displeased him, and destroys them without showing any consideration for if he’s up on his quota or exceeding the limits or anything. His job doesn’t come up in his decisions to destroy; his personal feelings on things do. Saying he just destroys things because it’s his job is disingenuous and ignores his actual actions.

Orphenoc

1. Perhaps trying to explain it differently. I suppose I realize I can be a bit off the mark at times however in light of the fact that you feel piccolo daimao wins on defining points for having subsequent arcs borrow his formula, I’d assume you might credit freeza for subsequent villains borrowing from him, and pointing out TFS noted the same thing with regard to cooler I thought I might be on to something, just explaining it poorly.

2. Be that as it may it’s been noted frequently as of late that cinema goers and television watchers expect a certain level of sophistication and complexity from their entertainment these days. Look at Westworld compared with the old film. Look at Man of Steel compared with Superman I-IV. The number of main stream mangaka who noted Dragonball’s influence is numerous. So doubtlessly a large cadre or villains in today’s mangaka may take after DBs most famous villain, Freeza, thereby diluting his impact on those seeing him for the first time. I don’t know if it’s fair to judge manga in the light of all works from the epic of Gilgamesh to present. But in the light of manga or even comics he’s a significant villain.

5. I remember the Babari’s but that still doesn’t justify Zamasu’s actions. It’s like me seeing a dumb insect and wanting to shoot it, the Buddhist temple I live in thinks all life precious and urges me to stop, so I kill all of them so I can have at the bugs. Freezes seems to have been born royalty. He wants power to expand his empire, please his father, enjoy knowing that he’s accomplished a conquest no one else has. I’m not sure, were not shown much in the way of a backstory but his general actions are something we’ve seen in heroes and villains throughout history from Alexander the Great to Ghenghis Khan. The spoiled prince who enjoys tormenting others has been seen in novels like the books of A Song of Fire and Ice or its tv adaption Game of Thrones. It may be a fallacy of popularity but most find King Joffrey to be a memorable villain in that series. He and Freeza are similar in that sense. And while you can say his specific actions are motivated more by his narrative role, in each case there was a reason for them. Whether Vegeta stealing the dragon balls or Neil protecting Guru these people got in his way. He’s used to having his way and as far as power for powers sake, it’s interesting that he restricts his own power to walk among the people and maintain control.

7b. What I’m saying is even from a villains perspecive his ends don’t make sense. Freezas end game is to rule over everything. Zamasus end game leaves him with nothing left to rule over. To me the former seems more logical than the latter.
7c. Perhaps it’s the translation but I’ve heard Godzilla noted as getting “pissed off” in fights. He chases after his hunger, radioactivity, and he protects his turf from invaders while stomping through when he damn well pleases all the same. I think like a mystical beast he’s conscious of his actions, particularly in the original series where he, mothra and Rodan have a conversation (as translated by the shobijin) about why they should stop fighting amongst each other and work to defeat Ghidorah or not…
7cii. You make it sound as if he’s a kid granted extraordinary powers by Zenou Sama and run amock. That description fits Kid Buu more than it does Beerus (excluding the Zenou part). We’re not privy to his quota or whether there is an actual quota but we’re told he’s a God of destruction for a reason. I don’t think it’s so we can simply gloss over that fact and view him as a villain. He’s supposed to be viewed in the light of the ancient gods like Anubis. While they were temperamental and had their proclivities their actions were neither good nor evil and served a cosmic purpose. Brahma, Vishnu, Zeus, Hades, Chronos, Odin etc. They had their human traits and bickered amongst one another, took it their anger on us, raped, murdered, tortured, protected, empowered. Which would you view as a villain? Or are they all? Even the god of the underworld has a job to do.

GreatWyrmGold

1. There are a few points to bring up. First, King Piccolo defined not just the personality of future villains, but the plot structure and focus of the remaining arcs—structure and focus which was mostly (though not wholly) absent from prior arcs. Second, I’m not convinced that Frieza was that big of an influence on Cell’s personality, on a meta-level; he seemed more like Vegeta to me, and most of Frieza’s alleged influence was just some form of general villainy which was hardly unknown to the series. Third, even if we accept that, Frieza influenced one villain, while Piccolo shaped five arcs, including the four best-known ones, as well as GT, Super, deuterocanonical materials (such as video games and most of the movies), and the public perception of the franchise.
2. There were people wanting more “sophisticated” and “complex” entertainment in the 80’s, and people wanting simpler stuff today. Both could find their fix. The fact that today’s big-budget cinema is trying to cater to the “sophisticated” crowd more doesn’t mean we should judge the works of the past more lightly.
5a. It wasn’t just the Babari. Zamas had those attitudes before, presumably due to seeing other mortals fighting and killing and destroying, ruining the gods’ “perfect” creation. The problem isn’t that some insects are dumb, it’s that all insects are worthless and make the world a worse place. To use your example, it’s more like if the monk saw that flies were getting into peoples’ food, termites were eating the beams of their buildings, mosquitoes were spreading disease, and so on, and the monk decided that no matter what his elders said, it was immoral and unjust to not wipe insects off the face of the world.
5b. Wanting power for power’s sake is never a good enough motivation on its own. It’s boring, it’s cliché, it’s lazy. At least give them something they want to do with that power. And the fictional examples you give aren’t the best. A Song of Ice and Fire is full of interesting characters, but Joffery is not one of them; he’s there for the readers to hate, and to facilitate Westeros’s descent into anarchy while propelling the arc of several actually-interesting characters like Cersei, Tyrion, and Sansa.
7b. I’ve explained about the power-for-its-sake thing, so I won’t repeat myself. However, your point that Zamas would have nothing to rule over is worth responding to, because it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of his character. Zamas doesn’t want to rule, he wants to make the universe better, make it how he thinks it should have been made to begin with. Even if he did want to rule, he wouldn’t want to rule over a universe filled with mortals.
7c. Wild animals get pissed off, chase after food, and defend their territory, too. What’s your point? And yes, in some versions he’s more intelligent, but those are usually the ones where he’s destroying other monsters instead of Tokyo.
7c-ii. Those gods you mention that were doing all those terrible things were doing them of their own volition. Zeus didn’t have an adultery quota, no one tells Vishnu to destroy certain villages, etc. That’s the case with Beerus, too. As for these mythical “destruction quotas,” we’ve seen zero evidence that they exist, and even if they did, there’s zero evidence that they matter at all for Beerus’s decision of destroying or not destroying a given planet and plenty of evidence that he doesn’t care about that so much as his own desires. TL;DR: Beerus might have a job to do, but that’s not his motivation for doing it.
As for this “code of the gods”…I don’t judge people by their standards of morality, or even those of their superiors or culture. Doing so glosses over many of the greatest atrocities in our history. Crusaders massacring Muslim civilians, Islamic persecution of Hindus in India, conquistadores, slavery, the Rape of Nanjing, contemporary genocides in Africa, ISIS, North Korea, Pol Pot, and yes, Hitler—all of these were condoned or even mandated by the standards of morality of those people, their leaders, and their cultures. I don’t care if the gods say that planets need to be destroyed and hell to the mortals on them (which is inconsistent with the behavior of pretty much every god in the franchise), Beerus is still in the wrong for blowing up the planets of anyone who displeases him.

Orphenoc

1. Even if we leave TaoPiePie’s being a prototype mini arc for Piccolo I’m not sure that’s entirely true. You can certainly make a good argument for borrowed elements but the daimao arc is strong to me for a different reason. What other arc has Goku going on a violent vengeful rampage following the death of his best friend? Sure he loses and is saved by Yajirobe before he gets it together to save earth but that’s what we leave off with after we segue out of the 22nd. I think the arc is much bigger for a Goku growth arc and while yes Krillins death in Freeza leads to a dramatic power boost of anger for Goku, that was more the climax of the arc than its core. The group trains to face the saiyajins, they train to face freezas forces, they train to face the androids and cell and buu (though that arc I’ll give you does mirror Piccolo Daimao in a way, in part because Toriyama tried to top the android arc by taking DB back to its roots of fun mixed in with fighting). The arcs from what the anime labels Z seem far closer in structure than any of their predecessors. Daimao was more about Gokus growth than that of the team around him, unlike the Z arcs. It was a hit and AT took elements from it going forward, but he had been doing that all along since the 21st and red ribbon (which were also sudden successes for the franchise). Cell may posses some of Vegeta’s vices like wanting to see his opponent at their full potential with Gohan, and thinking Goku is the only one he can have a true fight with, but what makes him most terrifying (excluding eating people in his 1st form) and what makes him a villain is his desire to kill. He death rays Trunks, threatens to blow up the solar system, and says he’ll blow up the planet after he gets his kicks from them. If it’s from the parts that make him up that’s all Freeza. Even the other androids at their worst are vicious but out for a murdering joyride, not to wipe Earth off the map, so if his machinations come from somewhere it’s got to be Freeza or possibly Cold who we barely knew

2. It just means the past shouldn’t lose originality points when works resemble them. I’m not going to watch Jurassic World then Jurassic Park and say..about JP, been there done that. Or King Kong in light of Skull Island/Kong to use an extreme example. If I’m reading Kinnikuman I read it in the context of its time and say “ahh..that villain..that arc inspired this in the 70s, 80s, 90s”. the originals are special not purely for nostalgia.

5a. So what you’re saying in this case Zamasu would be like a crazy monk who kills all the others and the insects just to live in peace and quiet away from the bugs. Not saying I can’t picture it, but to me that means he has a screw loose and while entertaining it doesn’t make him a better villain than Freeza.

5b. You’re ignoring Joffrey’s acts of cruelty giving him joy and pleasure. He enjoys seeing the torment on people’s faces. Like Freeza he’s raised spoiled and arrogant. This is why Freeza and Joffrey is a valid comparison as opposed to Freeza and Ramsay Snow/Bolton. While both enjoy tormenting others viciously, Ramsay turned out that way not because he was spoiled but more because he was taking his anger out on others. Ramsay may well be a better villain than Joffrey but it doesn’t mean the numerous blogs calling Joffrey and the actor who portrayed him in GoT one of the greatest villains are wrong. There’s a lesson to be learned in Freeza and Joffrey about absolute power and spoiling children to no end, that often occurred in Kingdoms past, where you’d get your occasional Caligula or Nero. I get it, you don’t enjoy that type of villain. You find it one-two dimensional. He wants it because he was raised spoiled. He’s an antagonist because they stand in his way. But it’s not so one dimensional it’s unrealistic because it’s happened before and can happen in life. And regardless of his motivations, Freeza is a multifaceted character and we see several sides of his personality. Joffrey puts on the charm as well and had Sansa madly in love with him before he revealed the monster lurking within.

7b. See my point 5a.

7c. Point is, he’s more than an animal acting off of base instinct in the lower regions of the brain. Goji is often given human attributes despite being a force of nature because he is like a god in the films, hence the name. The American interpretation in 98 where he was simply a wild fight or flight animal pissed off many of the original fans because TriStar failed to understand that. Beerus too is a god who makes decisions using his brain, but our heroes aren’t meant to judge those decisions as good or evil, more just react in shock and awe to them and do their best to weather the storm or lead him away.

7cii. If Bacchus doesn’t go around giving out drinks, he’s not doing his job. Not that he has a quota of drinks to give out and people to get drunk but he’s filling a role, and if he doesn’t he needs to be replaced. A god of destruction that doesn’t destroy is a bit of a waste too in that light. It’s not just that he’s given a license to destroy. He’s expected to destroy. It seems he can go about his business as he pleases but I don’t think most find him evil for it.

The gods created the planets and so it is their domain to destroy them. It’s not as if Genocidal maniacs created the people they commit genocide over. It’s like you destroying a robot you make in a way.

GreatWyrmGold

1a. I’m not sure that Goku was the focus of the King Piccolo arc more than the Z arcs, unless you’re talking about how Goku being out until near the climax didn’t really start until Vegeta. Beyond that…Goku doesn’t really learn any particular lesson or develop in any particular way from the King Piccolo arc—he’s pretty much the same when Krillin comes back as when he died. I’m not sure what sense the arc can be said to be “Goku-focused” while the Z arcs are “supporting-cast-focus,” unless measuring by raw screentime.
1b. …I’m not sure how Cell’s threats to kill and destroy are more like Frieza’s than they are like every other villain in the franchise’s history.
2. I’m reading and rereading this section, and I’m not sure what its point is. I’m not sure how any part of Dragon Ball “resembles the past,” nor of how resembling the past is related to the point we were discussing.
5a. I could try explaining again, but you’d just misinterpret it again, so I don’t care.
5b. Joffery and Ramsay are flat characters, at least compared to the rest of Martin’s cast. They like certain things, hate certain things, and don’t change much. We get a little exploration into why they want what they want and expect what they expect, but we don’t get a lot of detail. They’re dull, relatively two-dimensional, and static. In the books, they exist to shape the characters who aren’t any of those things; on their own, they’d be relatively uninteresting. (I don’t care what the critics of Game of Thrones say; they didn’t realize something might be up with the show until several arcs were contorted to allow Sansa to be raped.) Frieza has the same problem, but magnified due to the lack of focus, and especially the absence of focus on how his past connects to his present.
Incidentally, you’ve resorted to saying “Characters like Joffery and Ramsay are interesting, and Frieza is like them,” without explaining why Joffery’s vile nature makes him interesting.
7c. Except that the mortals of the cast do reason with him. They don’t act like he’s just a force of nature to be avoided—they wheel and deal, they plead and bargain, they bribe and argue. Beerus is treated as a character in every sense of the word.
7cii-a. If Bacchus gives out drinks just because it’s his job (which it isn’t, but I’ll roll with it), he’s not particularly responsible for anyone getting drunk. If he chooses who to give drinks to based on personal, petty preferences, he’s at least partially responsible. If ZERO EFFING SIGN is given that his motivation for giving out drinks, period, is EVEN REMOTELY RELATED to his job—if neither his decision to give someone a drink nor his decision of who to give a drink to—he’s wholly responsible. No matter what you keep asserting, the last case is closest to Beerus.
7cii-b. The argument that the gods can kill people because they created them is flawed. The difference between destroying some building or what-have-you that you made and killing your own child is not that you personally created the former and somehow the creation of the latter is less personal—I won’t even go into all the fucked-up implications of and problems with that argument—but that a child is a PERSON, you moron! But even by your own logic, that argument doesn’t work, because every mortal on Earth was created by its parents—the gods played no role in it. (And destroying a building you made without notifying the people who use it, even if you built it yourself with your own money and labor, is a dick move even if you don’t kill anyone in the process.)

I’m getting sick of reiterating basically the same points over and over. If you don’t come up with a better response, I’m going to just ignore you. Just FYI.

Orphenoc

1a. You seem blind to the significance of the subtle differences and what Goku went through to beat Piccolo. He nearly died three times. Took something that was nearly sure to kill him and leaves him out of commission for a time but results in a power up (mirrored in arcs such as one piece impel down), he went so far as to kill someone, shows true grief over the loss of friends and rage. Goku before then was happy go lucky and while he could be serious in fights he’d never pushed this far before. From a fighting perspective when tambourine and piccolo beat him the first time he’s outmatched and exhausted, he was also beat by Tien (with help from Chiaotzu) and Jackie Chun in the tournaments. In his final fight he stops at nothing, whether broken bones, exhaustion, the “death” of friends. That growth in the form of gaining the determination to power through everything when battered and broken and bleeding out to win sticks with him to the point he no longer has to be earths last line of defense against Cell. But we’re getting off topic and it seems like you’re just disagreeing because you’re taking this personal. My point was quite bluntly Goku is the only one that does any training and shows any sort of growth power wise in this arc. The characters are as static as you’d expect personality wise in a shonen manga but they do train and power up for the purpose of defeating threats in Z.

1b. Cell doesn’t have their cells. You could make the argument he has Piccolo Daimao’s but we know he’s an amalgam of Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Cold and Piccolo (Ma Jr I’d assume). I brought up the androids because he absorbs them as well to attain perfection but he uses Freeza’s attack to kill Trunks instantly upon return from everyone thinking him dead. Freeza killed Krillin instantly upon return from everyone thinking him dead. Freeza also threatens to destroy the planet because he can survive in space. Cell threatens that he’s gathered enough power to wipe out the solar system and expects our heroes (including one armed Gohan to sit there and despair). When Vegeta threatened the planet it was stated that Goku had no choice but to stand and face it if he wanted to defend the planet. Vegeta can’t breathe in space and doesn’t have a deathwish. It seems apparent Toriyama wanted Cell to remind us of Freeza when he was at his most evil. And really the only villains that do threaten to blow up earth are Freeza, Cell and Buu (who ultimately does)[until beerus in the manga which we get to later].

2. Reread your own posts before this. I don’t know how many back and forths we’ve had on Freeza being an original character in manga. You seem to think that since there are plenty of Freeza like characters in today’s series there’s no value to a character like him. You haven’t explicitly stated that but it’s implicit in your disregard. What I’m saying is you have to give him credit in light of the fact that he was original at the time of his creation and you should credit him more because of the characters he’s influenced.

5a. It seems you have a problem with me bringing up the fact that he killed all the other monks to accomplish this. Otherwise I can’t picture any objective observer seeing any significant difference between our interpretations. The fact that Zamasu kills all the other gods to accomplish his goals cheapens his accomplishment and value as a villain to me. You might not like Freeza but at least there is a logical sanity to what he does. Zamasu is fun to watch and if there weren’t value in insane villains Batman’s rogues gallery wouldn’t be as highly regarded as they are, but as subjective as villain rankings may be on the objective criteria of who has a more logical goal, sorry but your boy Zamasu loses.

7a. You seem to have ignored anything I’ve said about the fact that people like Joffrey have existed in history, and had similar backgrounds due to their spoiled rearing. It’s implicit in my statements that what makes Joffrey interesting is what it says about raising spoiled children and giving them absolute power. Freeza may have evil in his nature (something I dislike about his counterpart in Super is that it seems to claim the race is simply evil by nature and that there can’t be a good one among them) but he was definitely nurtured in a family that let him run wild and taught him he was better than others. The fact they bring his dad into the manga further illustrates this relationship. I don’t find unrealistic minded villains to be interesting or well thought out because they’re unrealistic. I don’t find Zamasu more interesting than Freeza because his end game is insane and poorly thought out IMO. Freeza is psychotic but at least he has plans, rooted in realistic goals

7c. Characters in the Godzilla films try to redirect him as well. They use telepathy, shut off nuclear reactors that attract him, use the calls of his descendants (birds) to lure him to traps, set up military forces to direct him on a path away from populated areas etc. Bill Gates has patented cold water pumps to be used in the gulf to prevent and redirect hurricanes from touching down on populated areas of the mainland. This doesn’t mean they aren’t forced of nature. No one in the series is labeling Beerus a great evil they have to face the way they did Buu, Cell, Freeza, numerous filler and movie villains etc. No one talks about his evil Ki. They try to stop him but he’s not evil. You’re trying to label him as such but that’s not what Toriyama intended.

7cii-a. (This continuous expansion of your numbering system is getting a bit cumbersome and may be leading to your aggravation) while I’m not a religious person and definitely not a polytheist, you have to understand how the gods worked in the minds of the Greeks, Egyptians etc to understand this type of character. People pray to them, bow before them, fear them, make sacrifices and tributes and do their best to appease them and avoid their wrath. The gods decision making process was based on their fickle moods who pleased them them most and what things angered them. Being intixicated was looked at as a positive thing and while Bacchus may have been viewed in a positive light as a largely benevolent god people prayed to in order to be flooded with wine, people feared Ares and Hades as the gods of war and the underworld. Some would pray to Ares for support in battle others would fear his wrath. I don’t recall any labeling of these beings as good or evil outside of the Disney dumbing down of characters. Zeus could be an antagonist to a heroes journey just as Neptune could be a supporter or vice versa. Works like the Illiad and the Oddysey didn’t suggest they were villains or heroes themselves, though perhaps in the war of the titans they might appear heroic. This is the type of character Beerus is meant to be. I can understand your frustration if you think I’m not accepting your points because you seem incapable of accepting my basic points such as this.

7cii-b. Now you’re just getting pissy. If you need to resort to name calling you’ve obviously lost your cool and need to stop debating. Grab a snickers. No one is suggesting it’s alright to kill ones child. I just predicted your next logical argument to my “it’s ok for the gods to fill out their purpose of destruction because they also engage in creation” by saying that’s the same logic as killing ones child. You seem to have skimmed my argument and took the points that most suited your own from it in responding, because what you’ve said I’ve said is the opposite of what I’ve said. I said it’s completely different giving birth than creating something. You seem to think I’ve said they’re identical when I’ve actually differentiated them. What I’m saying is in the minds of polytheists that believed in these myths we were like beings of clay and simpler lesser creatures than the gods themselves that the gods had molded. Something akin to you making an android and destroying it. The Hindu destroyer of worlds is carrying out a duty, not some being of evil. You seem incapable of grasping that concept. Moreover if what’s upset you so is that you think I’m ok with mass genocide (which I’m very much against, and have been a supporter of human rights and member of amnesty international for years, visited sites like Nagasaki to support the end to nuclear proliferation) remember in these stories like in dragon ball there is an after life. The gods are cognizant of this whereas in the original series characters like Radditz, Freeza, Buu etc are not. These guys are evil. Beerus is performing a cosmic balancing act that we aren’t meant to understand.

You have to realize you are in the vast minority of people that view Beerus as evil. That doesn’t necessisrly mean you’re wrong, simply that you’ll have a lot of people to argue with besides me if that’s the point you want to make. Google “is beerus evil” and see the responses to better understand how alone you are in you’re view TFS notes he’s an antagonist and lumps him in with the villains because he acts out that role in the film and he’s deserving of being ranked against others. So if you want to say that a character that isn’t actually evil and one that just showed up with an end game of purifying the universe by killing everyone who isn’t him are the best that the franchise could come up with are the top this series has to offer, suit yourself, but realize you’re not going win many fans looking for series with the greatest villains with those arguments. Personally my favorite villain to watch in action was cell because I enjoyed his progression and the arc in general the most. But I didn’t expect him to rank higher than he did and realize Freeza is more original. I’m not going to argue with you for arguments sake either if you’re unwilling to concede anything besides Tao Pie Pie influencing the Daimao arc, and continuing to take or want to make things personal. I’ve at least accepted Zamasu is the best villain we’ve had since Z, the daimao arc influenced later arcs (perhaps not to the degree you noted), that transformations didnt have to be introduced by Freeza and that Nakao is known for freeza because of Freezas popularity. We’re now bickering over whether Goku exhibited any growth in the daimao arc, if Cell’s evil nature came from Freeza, if the Game of Thrones/Fire and Ice villains are great because of their realistic nature, if a villain with an illogical end game is cheapened, if the Ancient gods were viewed as good and evil and if Beerus actually having a job to do has any value at all. Half those things are subjective and the other half I thought were widely accepted. Perhaps at this point it’s best if we just agree to disagree. I have nothing against you and am not trying to raise anyone’s blood pressure or waste their time anymore than my own. As frustrating as feeling much of what I said was either ignored or misconstrued I rather enjoyed the discussion on the Daimao arc and what separates gods like Beerus from Zamasu in particular and even learned a bit in the process (like Rou Kaioushin mentioning Beerus by name in the original manga, which I don’t remember when I read it on planet names in the 90s though I remember him being sealed in the sword I think I conflated it with his story of the witch fusing with him and attributed both to her somehow. That to me besides the movie being accepted canon thanks to AT’s involvement [though I heard he played a large hand in movie 9 as well which may be the one with the fewest canon plot holes] makes Beerus a legitimate figure to me in the dragon ball manga as opposed to a take it or leave it filler like Bebi or even Zamasu to an extent). Thx for ur time

alexandre

He wants immortality the same reason he wanted the saiyan wiped out (originally at least Beerus changed it I think) he is scared of death, because unlike everyone else whose motivations is just one goal and that’s it Freeza already has his goals reached and he doesn’t want to lose them.
For all Vegeta’s motivations once his goal of beating Goku and proving he is the strongest is met it’s over, Freeza on the other end will never run out of world to conquer or people to crush since there is always someone who will try defying him but once he is immortal he knows that he already won, and he relishes on people losing to him. Like it’s easy to go “but this villain want so little of life truly he is the best villains because at least his motivations are original” but that’s just lowering the bar to what makes a villain only so you can add characters who doesn’t fit the description because you like them more

Also at the time Freeza killed Krillin it was his final death, he couldn’t be raised by shenron and Guru was dead in a way they had to pull a lot of shit out of their ass to bring back, it was krillin’s final moment and Goku refused to be sent back to Earth solely because of revenge for his friend

Anna

While it is a valid criticism that most of the things with Freeza COULD have been shuffled around and replicated, the simple fact is, as far as Dragonball is concerned, they WEREN’T. And they tried, oh yes they tried.

Take, being Vegeta’s boss. That whole thread culminates in Vegeta’s dying confessional, bawling his eyes out (like a bitch) and allowing the first moment of weakness, and one of very few we’d ever see, as he recounts how Freeza’s made him into the person he is today. He speaks of how he was robbed of his self-determination, and that even his most base and vulgar of desires, revenge, has been robbed of him and leaves it to Goku. All while Freeza non-chalantly grins while he waits for Vegeta to die.

No other villain really influences another character like that. The closest we get is Number 18, but that is glossed over in passing. And in fact 18 DOES get her revenge by killing Gero. And then it’s breezed over because 18 isn’t really scarred by her experience, not really. It doesn’t carry the gravitas that the earlier scene did because it is just not as threatening because it is not as sinister. And Babidi’s control of Vegeta, “making him evil again”, does not even come close, all that drama comes from Vegeta himself.

Like most villains, Freeza doesn’t really have an arc, so much as his character is revealed to the reader/audience. Arcs are reserved for growth, falls, and redemptions, and none of those really apply to big bads as a general rule, so counting that against him is just stacking the deck. What we do get to see is how he slowly loses all his layers of carefully constructed personality as his plans get frustrated. He is a polite, regal individual. During the Namek saga his is “plausibly neutral”, his men committing brutality while he sits in his scooter “Oh the circumstances work against me, the humanity of it all!”, and that slowly peels away as he tries to pretend it’s all a game to him like an internet troll losing an argument. Then he back-to-backs Piccolo and Krillin. Did he need to? No. Did he WANT to? Absolutely. And there is no other counterpart to that besides Majin Buu. You know. The poop monster. That anger makes him pretty unique in Dragonball when you think about it. Most other villains only kill threats or as a means to an end (the exception being Arlia, a filler episode). And he becomes that petulant child, that whole “you don’t truly know someone until you fight them”. That was the point; Freeza SEEMED like this sophisticated, cultured ruler with an air of dignity and propriety about him. A reasonable individual who could possibly be bargained with and who coated his deceptions in enough truth and hope, and said his lies with such conviction you WANT to believe he means what he says. But the only thing underneath was a brat used to getting his way who would lose his temper and annihilate everything if it came down to it.

The biggest problem with him is that he lived long enough to get jobbed by Trunks. His final scenes on Namek, fully revealed, would have capped a perfect end to the character and allowed the weight of the significance of the moment, when Goku saves the universe, to be felt through the franchise. Now he has three cameos and a full arc after his main body, so that blow is definitely lessened. (obligatory “you know Toriyama wanted to end the franchise…” gag)

GreatWyrmGold

I’m not terribly impressed by the effect Frieza had on Vegeta, not in the least because it wasn’t explored nearly so much as that which Kakarot had on Vegeta. Frig, the effects Bulma had on Vegeta got more exploration. Frieza is all but forgotten after his arc; we never see Vegeta coming to terms with the fact that his life will never be the same after the death of his former tyrant. Not that this would help that much, since Frieza would still be a two-dimensional cliche tacked onto the backstory of the previous arc villain.

I’m also not impressed by the “He’s just a villain, he doesn’t need an engaging personality” argument. He doesn’t need it, but he’s weaker for lacking it.

BadMunky64

It’s Christmas morning. WEN BROLY!?!?

Adam Roop

No mention to Ozotto The Super Monster in Honorable Mentions? Well I am mentioning him!

keelanrelyt

Ever notice that every time Goku fights something in dragon ball it becomes his friend. Accept evil demon king piccolo of course.

Orphenoc

I’m assuming you mean the original dragon ball, but unless you’re lumping the crane school together and excluding him (in which case wouldn’t you have to exclude piccolo daimao due to big green?) what about TaoPiePie? And I think Hachan is the only RR he snagged, well until 18 who he never fought in either timeline tho.

alexandre

It never happened until piccolo jr. and there was a reason for that, Goku knew that if he died Kami would die too

Gintoki

”So when everyone is comparing themselves to you, you know you’ve made it.”

For underrated villain yes, I mean he is Goku’s brother and made a mockery of Earth’s most powerful warriors at the time they were the strongest (as in Popo didn’t show up and no sell everything goku threw at him)

Craxnor

Honestly when I think of the greatest fights in dragon ball I think of the final freiza fight and the final fight with Kid Buu. After showcasing their powers throughout this entire series we know without a doubt that people in Freiza’s first form level could destroy planets. And with those fights it showed. The planet they fight on literally gets torn to pieces. With cell, the androids, and most of the buu saga there was never that depth. The area got destroyed but I never felt like the planet was in danger of ripping itself apart.

Which is probably why I like the Broly movie come to think of it. During the entire fight the entire country is breaking itself apart and the planet is about to be destroyed at any moment. These are planet destroying, nay, system destroying warriors and fights like these show why.

Karthull

While my favorite villain I think is buu, I agree Lord Frieza is the best villain

Stevie

I honestly think Cooler’s a little underrated. An older brother is a PERFECT paradigm to someone who’s ruling the universe but breaks down every time something doesn’t go his way. Even KaiserNeko calls Frieza a spoiled brat, so an older brother that hates his spoiled nature is a great choice for another member of Frieza’s family.

It reminds me of the Beerus/Champa relationship in Super, with how Champa always complains and Beerus either gets irritated or just shrugs it off. For the few crossovers that Frieza and Cooler have had, this kind of brotherly parallel really pays off.

On top of that, his final form in Movie 5 is SOOOOO GOOD! Not only is it one of the most bad-ass-looking Frost Demon transformations in the series, but the idea of there being ANOTHER transformation after Frieza’s final form was a terrifying thought, at least for its time.

I think Cooler would be a LOT more popular if two things happened: the fight between FF Cooler and SSJ Goku wasn’t so one-sided, and Movie 6 never happened. To quote Kaiser again, F**K THAT MOVIE!!!

Onochie Nebedum

There’s also the fact that Frieza was responsible for the destruction of Planet Vegeta, which kickstarted the entire Dragonball series.

Defective

Check it. Frieza is the lynchpin to the ENTIRE SERIES – Dragon Ball, DBZ, GT, and beyond. Kaiser, Lani, and Taka did a wonderful job justifying their reasons why Frieza is the #1 villain in the series, but here’s some additional tidbits that help supplement their information:

– By destroying planet Vegeta, Frieza sets the series as a whole into motion. If he didn’t do that, Goku never hurts his skull, we don’t get our protag, and no series exists.

– He kills Prince Vegeta. The dude commits Regicide in form of both Father and Son. This big bad killed the big bad of the previous saga and up until this point, Vegeta was seen as the measuring stick for which all others are measured.

– WIthout Frieza being the vindictive dick that he is and killing Krillin, we don’t get the transformation of Goku to Super Saiyan and even THEN Frieza doesn’t even “die” when he’s hit with the final blast of their epic, planet-wide battle.

– As they mentioned in the video above, we got two movies based off his brother (at least one of them was entertaining). Another transformation above Frieza’s final form? That’s just Cooler.

– Props to Mecha Frieza. Without him we don’t get the awe inspiring squash match that was Trunks’ first appearance in the series. This is EXACTLY like the Bill Goldberg vs Brock Lesnar build and match at Survivor Series. Lesnar (Frieza for this analogy) ran roughshod over EVERYONE over the course of 3+ years. Sure he’s had trouble along the way, but ultimately he came out on top and was a smarmy dick about it. Goldberg (Trunks for this) comes in for the first time in 12+ years (first time ever for newer viewers), says some words, and then UTTERLY DEMOLISHES LESNAR, THE PREVIOUS BIG BAD THAT GAVE EVERYONE TROUBLE, IN LITERALLY 3 MOVES – 2 SPEARS AND A JACKHAMMER. BOOM, SON! It’s pretty much the same thing that happened with Trunks and Frieza – Trunks comes in, says some words, and slices Mecha Frieza to bits before sending his blue screen having ass off to hell.

– Without Frieza I daresay we don’t get that hidden menace underneath Cell’s perfectly cool exterior.

– While Pikkon squashing the previous big bads was cool as fuck, it wasn’t as cool as when Trunks did it. Sorry, Pikkey.

Asura Bomb

Don’t forget to mention that Freeza barely trained in his entire life, having only trained like 4 months.

Edward Marquez

The best thing about Freeza is that he’s built up the entire arc and never overstayed his welcome. From the get go, we understand that Freeza is not someone you want to mess with because EVERYONE (except for Goku) is afraid of him, even King Kai is overwhelmed by his strength enough to tell Goku to stay way from the tyrant, and when he finally gets to fight, he swats the heroes around like bugs.

Goku was barely able to go toe to toe with freeza as it was, the only reason Freeza died was due to his own hubris and wound up cutting himself in half, severely weakening him to the point where Goku just blasted him into bits… and even THAT didn’t stop him from coming back and striking fear back into everyone’s hearts as he returned to get his revenge.

Sure he was defeated easily by trunks but as we all know, power levels are bullshit.

Deecks

Also, unlike Cell or Buu, who fight the heroes plenty of times in both small-scale skirmishes and all-out clashes before the final battle, Freeza doesn’t fight at all until the very end. (Unless you count Nail, but calling that a fight would be very kind.)

alexandre

Even future Trunks killing him had a purpose: to sell the androids as threat. If the guy who one shots Freeza tells you two androids defeat everyone safe goku it’s a big thing. Had trunks just showed up and says Goku dies of an Earth attack and everyone else dies yes the Z warriors were already jobbers.

wurblewind

It is only fitting that on this most wondrous Frieza Day that Our Lord take his rightful crown.

Techno Gray

Guys? You misspelled Frieza.

(Yes, I know. Don’t correct me)

A E S T H E T I C

Rip pikon

Deecks

If Tien’s barely a villain, Pikkon certainly isn’t.

Joseph Mena

Where’s Buu??

Lliam Smith

Wait….Freeza didn’t die to Goku on Namek, LIES!! he was a one-armed torso floating through space, close enough xD. Love the list btw

Stargoat

Totally incorrect. Number one should have been Spike the Devil Man. His visage is terrifying and his Devilmite Beam is unstoppable.

Chris Gaudet

Considering Devilmite Beam kills those with evil in their hearts, I’d hesitate to call him a villian.

Chris Gaudet

Oh, wait… he never enlists to help the heroes… F*** this guy.

Kevin_Allen

Where was Dumplin?!? The Demon God should have been #1

Dominick

So it’s confirmed. Monster Carrot vs. Popo Death Battle!!

Balmung6

Huh. Thinking on it now, I think Frieza was the only big bad that was just ‘naturally’ powerful – no biomass absorption, no intense training, no magical creation, just latent ability and passive power. It’s not until he’s brought back that he actually decides to train. All the other big bads are strong, yes, but the others seem to have solid reasons for that which aren’t a result of effort on their part – Cell with absorbing humans and cyborgs for power, Buu hand-crafted to be a monster, even Vegeta is genetically suited to be strong, getting a leg up from his DNA on repeat with the ‘near-death recovery’ bit all Saiyans have.. Frieza just starts with the power in addition to his title of Space Emperor. Hell of a racial bonus to start with 😛

Asshole Spiderman

BTW, Majin Buu wasn’t a magical Creation and was (Mostly) using his natural power

another thing was HOW powerful he was to the rest of the cast when that started.

Cell was something Piccolo could handle, til he drank a few more towns.
Majin Buu would have been vaporized if it wasn’t for his absurd regeneration, Vegeta could at least hurt him and Goku could have killed him as SS3 if he wanted to.

Frieza’s CANNON FODDER was worlds stronger than anything dealt with prior. The Start of Namek, he was basically a God commanding Dragons, and opposing him were 2..space ducks and Bulma and Vegeta (who needed 2 powerups over the course of it to compete)

Balmung6

Interesting. We do have to note, however, that Buu comes to rely on absorption almost as much as Cell did once Gotenks was a thing.

Also, it occurred to me just how naturally he assumes he’s the strongest around. Think about this – after being defeated by two Super Saiyans in a row, killed outright, he’s resurrected, openly admits his power has decreased (possibly from reverting to fully organic from the boost he got from being a cyborg), hears that Goku has gotten stronger, and STILL doesn’t think he needs to train. Only when he learns that Goku beat Buu does he consider, for the very first time, actually training like Goku’s been doing his whole life.

Asshole Spiderman

Hence the “(Mostly)”, but his main claims to fame, Deicide and BLOWING UP THE EARTH He did as Pure Buu

also, Frieza wasn’t exactly….sane when he came back

Tsapki

A few small points, though I do agree with your general statement.

My understanding is that Buu was not created by Bibidi, but rather that Buu existed at the dawn of the universe and Bibidi just found out a way to capture it and direct the destruction it caused.

As for Frieza, from what little info I can find on the race in general Frieza’s family is apparently a line of mutants that is supernaturally strong in comparison to their race in general, though it’s hard to find any other info on the race beyond a vague mention of their species almost going extinct due to some catastrophe.

Balmung6

Ah, Dabura. Could have been rather interesting if he wasn’t just a speed bump for Majin Buu, essentially. Both to the heroes trying to stop Buu and Buu himself, ironically. Just a shame that they never did anything with that ‘demon realm’ thing they mentioned when Supreme Kai and Kibito explained Dabura’s status as a villain.

Balmung6

I saw those quotes for Super Android 17, TFS – I can sense the salt from here 😛
But I’m honestly curious – is it because of his concept/motivations, or just that he’s a GT villain? 😛

For me Frieza always ranked as the best villain because every big bad after him was created to be evil. Cell, Buu, Baby, Super 17, even the Shadow Dragons. Outside of movies we didn’t get someone else who chose their dark path until Zamasu, and even counting lower villains you only have Gero and Dabura. A villain choosing their evil ways is always going to be more menacing than the brainwashed, programmed, or corrupted.

Balmung6

Wait, it’s spelled “Tullece”? I always thought it was “Turles”. Dammit one-off non-canon villains, get a name tag.

tbl

A great conclusion to a great list with a great fake out with a semi-obscure story breaker of a character. Even my boy Yamcha got props for his all to brief villain stint (the one where he legit beat Goku). You gotta feel bad for Bojack though, no ranking, no reference (Gen. Rildo, King Cold, Appule) not even an honorable mention. When the borderline pacifist monk looking for water from his village is gets an honorable mention and he doesn’t, it says just how bland he is as a villain.

On that note, when Bojack Unbound Abridged and will you have a parody version of the end credits theme of Bojack Horseman?

ethos

I never thought that I’d hear Frieza compared to Hans Landa but honestly it makes sense lmao

GeorgeLouisCostanza

ALL HAIL LORD FRY ZA

James Lambourne

Happy Freeza Day to every one! (Or Cooler day, Chilled day, or Cold day depending on where or when you live, And to those in ConTon city Happy Frogurt Day!)

Cylestea

its freeza EVE still

NiGHTS Noob

But Monster Carrot is actually the best. Closely followed by the Parapara brothers and Don Kee.

Donzulo

You guys portrayed Freeza perfectly, but I personally love Abridged Cell the best. He’s been the most fun of the entire series, and that stands as a testiment to the overall evolution of the Abridged Series. Thank you to all of you, and merry Christmas.

Sapphire

Awesome finale. Now WEN CHRISTMAS!?

truehunter

freeza is good but friza is better

Just Some Guy with a Mustache

Not only that, but Lord Freeza increased my vocabulary. Thanks to him, I know what “salubrious” means! Hell, one of the members of TeamFourStar worked under the man!

Joe Holland

Did you guys just get MasakoX to say “honourable mentions” and not let him say anything else? It sounded like him…

Connor Caines-Mandeville

Hoping next year is top 24 side characters

Jack

Now I want to see Vegito vs Monster Carrot.

Chad Payton

Nice shout out to the snipers in the Buu saga. Freeza might have killed millions, but he never shot a puppy.

Billy Neel

I actually kinda agree with Monster Karrot lol

T1m0thy

No shout out to Dr. Myuu?

Jason

Monster Carrot never came back, did he? For all we know, he lived with his minions on the moon forever and ever. Or until Piccolo blew it to hell, killing them instantly.

Andyjoe522

Please. Master Roshi was the one to do those three in.

Stevie

Toriyama said that after Master Roshi hit the moon with his Kamehameha, Monster Carrot went drifting into space. ALL HAIL MONSTER CARROT!!!

Chuck Aitchison

#1 villain in dragoball. Goku.
Here me out on this. without Goku, the vast majority of this list wouldn’t even be here. Gero and the androids pure existence is based on the desire to kill Goku. If Goku had not stomped out the Red Ribbon army, then Gero wouldnt have build the Androids and cell would never have been created either. Vegeta, though still a villain, never would have gone to Earth if he never heard of the Dragonball. How did he learn of them? Raditz, who only went to Earth for his brother. No Goku, no Raditz, no Vegeta. The vast majority of the villains in the series are motivated out of hatred for Goku, who if he wasnt so selfish, would have stayed dead and not been the catalyst for the motivations. Goku is the true #1 villain of the series.

SierraLarson

Without Goku, Pilaf or the Red Ribbon Army would be ruling the world.

But then again, who’s to say that’s a bad thing?

Oh, but then Babidi would’ve still came and released Buu (though it’d take longer to get enough energy) and then the Earth would be doomed.

MJW

The Red Ribbon Arm Leader just wanted to be Tall.

SierraLarson

Didn’t he want to be tall /so/ that he could rule the world?

Though who knows how he would’ve gone about that, I guess. If he tried tracking down the DBs again, he would get it, at least.

Royal Conquest

Yeah they definitely wanted to rule the world, and they were totally ruthless.

Defective

Goku is only the hero due to a brain injury. He is NOT a good person outside of that. He’s not relatable, he’s not this hero people can look up to. He fights bad guys and protects earth all because of a brain injury he suffered when he was an infant.

Vegeta, for all his wrong doings and atrocities he’s committed, is far more respectable because unlike Goku, he learns, grows, DEVELOPS as a character over time. Goku just wants to battle. Fuck that.

Royal Conquest

Wtf are you even talking about. Goku enjoys fighting. He also chooses to defend people who can’t defend themselves. The two are hardly mutually exclusive. Vegeta has callously murdered literally billions of other life forms. he hasn’t even ever said he felt a sliver of remorse for these actions. He can sacrifice himself and have character redemption moments as many times as he likes, you can never truly be redeemed for the genocide of fucking billions. Goku sees this character, AND ACCEPTS HIM AND TRIES TO CHANGE HIM. But oh yeah he’s just a fucking asshole right?/s He actively tries to see the good in people countless times throughout the series and even gives up his own life with little to no hesitation if it means protecting people. It doesn’t matter if you can come back dying still fucking sucks. Why does it matter if he was stopped from being a savage little monster by a knock on the head? That’s such BS reasoning. Goku is still able to make his own decisions.

Defective

Brain Injury. Enough said. That is quite literally THE ONLY REASON ANY OF HIS CHARACTER HAS COME TO BE.

He’s a moron, an idiot, and put his friends and the universe’s safety at risk just because he wanted a better fight. At least with Vegeta he’s upfront and honest about.

Royal Conquest

Having a brain injury doesn’t make you a moron. He’s naive sure but he’s only actually a moron in DBZA. I don’t see why that discounts any sort of character development he gets after receiving the brain injury. Would he even have become as powerful without that knock on the head? Would he not have been even weaker than Raditz? Even training himself and pushing himself he wasn’t strong enough to beat him. Imagine how low his natural power level had to be. Roshi probably would have put him down when he began becoming a serious threat on his own. Speaking of Roshi, he imparts to him the lesson that there will always be someone stronger. Because of this lesson, Goku keeps pushing himself further and further. That is character development. After he goes through Kami’s training he gains a new respect for life, and spares Piccolo Jr. He wants to fight a stronger opponent sure, but that’s only one part of his character. Goku genuinely does not like to see innocent people hurt. This is before it’s even decided that Goku is a Saiyan. We all know Akira Toriyama wrote this by the seat of his pants.

The problem with Goku is that his biggest character development occurred in OG Dragon Ball. But Z is arguably not even about Goku as the main character anyway. He’s almost a plot device in Z. But then he has some of the best fights in the series. He’s flashy as shit, usually quite acrobatic and overall just a lot of fun. I can understand not being a fan of him and even disliking him because there are obvious flaws to his character but to completely discount him based on having a brain injury is kind of fucked up IMO.

Defective

TL;DR. The only reason Goku isn’t a homicidal maniac is solely due to his brain injury. That’s it. Whatever his choices were beyond that are based on his upbringing and, you guessed it, his brain injury.

At least with Vegeta he’s relateable far more than Goku is.

SilentStorm

So that Pilaf or Red Ribbon Army could rule the world?

So that Freeza could go on conquering planets while Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz worked for him almost certainly finding Earth at some point?

So that Babidi is free out there and can eventually summon Buu?

So that King Piccolo is stuck on some small thing that someone at some point can randomly pick up and make him come back?

Really, for all the evil and selfishness that Goku brought, the universe is a much better place with him around.

Royal Conquest

That’s a weak argument. You can’t blame someone for bad things happening to them. Goku is just as much a victim as he is a hero. He did not ask to be born to a race of space warrior pirates. Not only that but none of the post Cell villains were “because of their hatred for Goku” unless you count Majin Vegeta but then doesn’t personal accountability mean anything? Goku staying dead was completely pointless. The Red Ribbon Army HAD TO BE STOPPED. They were basically Nazis ffs. How is a fourteen year old supposed to know a mad scientist who never came out from behind the scenes would seek revenge? At worst Goku is self-centered. That hardly matters in the grand scheme of things when he’s spent his whole life putting his own life on the line for the sake of not letting people harm others. Something he’s done countless times.

RogueWaluigi

So, will next year be the top 24 side characters of the DB universe?

OneWingedRose

So wait, Goku ACTUALLY fought a rabbit on the moon!?

How I’ve had no idea about the true number 1 villain here is beyond me, time to do some googling! I, like Trunks, assumed Cell made that one up!

BlueMageBrilly

Good job TFS. I don’t really have anything to say about this one that wouldn’t start an argument, because Power levels are crap, so I’ll just say…

Hail Frieza!

Also, for that bit at the end, you should do “Top vehicles in Dragon Ball!” Bunny Car is #1, obviously, but the rest might be fun to position.

… Or go lewder to put Vegeta up there too, since it’s clear he got rode the most out of everyone else in the series, sans Nimbus. Hey-o.

sonic10chaosverse

and so the dcember is finished,i had fun with this one
at times i feel like the only one who liked the resurrection f movie and freeza coming back
¿does anybody else liked it?

dudebladeX

Oh! top 24 best filler moments? – C’mon, Dragonball is basically the trope namer of filler arcs, I’m sure we can find the best 24 of them by next year. One that I’m looking forward to is the Otherworld tournament.

RandomDrunk

…Naruto?

Royal Conquest

#1 would definitely be the driving episode

Loko Pérez

I was dying to see you talk about his original defeat at the hands of Goku.

Alpha Raptor

Everyone’s been wondering about Rildo and Christmas, but I think we can all agree on one vital question:

WEN MONSTER CARROT?

Lupu

He is number 1, what are you talking about?

Gustavo Villegas

Gets up, takes a deep breath…. AND PLAYS F BY MAXIMUM THE HORMONE!!!!!

OverHYPEdVegeta

FRIEEEEZZA! FRIEEEEZZA! FRIEEEEZZA! FRIEZA!

OverHYPEdVegeta

Dear, Kaiser, Scott, and Taka,
As always thank you for putting a smile on my face, and laughter in my voice when I don’t think I can create any. Thank you for amazing, well-thought out descriptions of each villain, from the first to the last, including perspectives on some I never thought to take, like Beerus, and Whis, from the movie perspectives alone. In addition, I’d like to thank you, and all of TFS for the work you do on Hellsing Ultimate Abridged. Thanks to you guys, the show gained a lot of popularity despite the fact that it ended, and that made my aunt and uncle really happy (they helped produce the show with Satoshi Fujii). I also look forward to watching Broly Abridged. Until then, I hope the three of you, Masako, Megami, Antfish, Ganxingba, HBI2K, Remix, Kimlinh, Grant, Kira, and all your friends and family enjoy the holidays, and have a HAPPY BUU YEAR… Yeah, I really need to stop using that stupid joke… 😀

NeptuniasBeard

You thank Kaiser TWICE, and Lani 0 times? That’s cold

OverHYPEdVegeta

Sorry, I’m very ADHD, OCD, and a little Aspergian. I tend to forget things…

OverHYPEdVegeta

Please don’t hurt me… 🙁

Royal Conquest

Should thank Kirran too as he and Kaiser both wrote this DBCember top 24 together.

Psycho Doodle

Would you look at that and on the same time Frieza’s event starts (or at least 1 day after) for xenoverse.

Frieza, you are amazing; as a changling I agree we are supreme, but I want to get my golden form and I can’t if you attacking everyone! T-T Frieza I love how evil you are, even if you are the biggest pain at the moment!

Cooper

Another great DBCember list. Fantastic work as always, TFS. Really hoping we’ll get a list of top 24 fights next year.

Anna

I know there’s a lot of blowback against it, but I will say, love it or hate it, Linda Young’s portrayal of Freeza is still an iconic one. And not to take anything from Chris Ayres, but hers is still the one I think of first.

But I think we can all agree, the one check mark against Freeza is that his pod is not a bunny car.

saturn0205 .

ROFLMFAO!

TFS, I love you.

chuggaafan1

Reason 23 why Monster Carrot was awesome: He was part of one of the best Dragon Ball games: Dragon Ball Z: Attack Of The Saiyans for the DS!

Artemis

I remember that game fondly, especially grinding bandit girls and bears on that snowy mountain :p

One thing that always kind of bugged me that I wish the series had investigated. What happened to frieza’s henchmen in all the worlds under his command after him and King Cold kicked the bucket? Was there a civil war over his domains between the surviving lieutenants? Did cooler take over before he died too?

When someone feels as much space as Frieza did (literally and metaphorically) there’s going to be a huge power vacuum when he’s dead. It seems like a bit of a missed opportunity to me.

Inuzuna

I mean I’m pretty sure it happened in filler but the anime did have us see Vegeta going to planets under Frieza’s control looking for Goku. we even got a scene of him killing some bird alien who didn’t know Frieza was dead and Vegeta breaking the news to him before ending him. just gotta search up “dbz vegeta searches for goku” into youtube to see the scene

Evan Bakley

Was that anime only though

Thomas Tran

That’s actually discussed a bit in RoF’s movie and anime adaptations. With his death and the legend of the Super Saiyan having come to fruition, the denizens of Universe 7 stopped fearing Freeza’s empire and started fighting back, steadily ending their reign of tyranny over the next several years. Pretty much all of the strongest enforcers died on Namek, leaving only a bunch of weaklings to try and uphold order, which failed spectacularly.

SierraLarson

In Resurrection F, it’s said that Sorbet took over.

Juan Reyes

Glorious.

Yuri Volten

I think the biggest joke was putting Nam in there. What part of him made him “villainous”? He could even ride the nimbus cloud.

Devid Kerber

Wait a second …. what evil did Nam do to be categorized as a villain?
That really confuses me right now …. is fighting honorably in a tournament for the sake of his people really that evil?

Kaliaila

This list is more top 24 antagonists rather than villains. For me Vegeta being 2nd cemented that in my mind.

Brian Rodriguez

Did you guys even watch the full video? It’s obvious that the first half is just TFS joking around and nothing there should be taken seriously.

Kaliaila

The Honorable mentions part was real. The Monster Rabbit part was a joke, because everyone knew it was going to be Frieza.

Also, I was talking about a chunk of the actual entries in the list, there are a number of them who are antagonists more than villains.

OneWingedRose

If ya don’t think Vegeta’s a villain, you’ve been watching the wrong series.

At least for 1-2 thirds anyway.

Kaliaila

Saiyan saga and part of the Namek saga. The rest of the series he’s just a rival for Goku with antagonistic tendencies. All of his actions after his first death involve him having planned that the Dragonballs would be used to clean up any collateral damage, because that is how Vegeta thinks.

OneWingedRose

Which is why I said 1-2 thirds, by that logic (which is a solid argument (but so is TFS’)), that’s still a villain for 1/3rd of the series, which is a fairly large amount, especially compared to others like Ginyu squad and stuff.

Devid Kerber

Every singel one of them can be seen as a villain ….
Yamcha was a bandit and the Crane School specialized in scam and assassination
they even could have mentioned Oolong for kidnapping girls for his pleasure palace
Nam is the only odd one out …..

Brian Rodriguez

He used to be an antagonist to Goku’s advance during his first tournament so yeah he could also be technically a villain.

Devid Kerber

If we are talking Nam… you’re wrong … he was just a side character! His impact on the series was way to small to be called an antagonist. And a villain needs an evil intend, ranging from the pure lust for carnage to just the simple greed to own stuff that doesn’t belong to you.
Nam is neither an antagonist nor a villain.
Tien was a villainess antagonist, dropping the villain part with his evil revenge intend in the middle of the final round against Goku. Yamcha was just a villainess thief until he gave up bandit life to hook up a rich chick(Bulma). Remember how he tried to seduce 12yo Chichi in order to get her father to (kill) take care of Goku?

VenomMelendez

Except Vegeta never truly reformed until the Buu Saga.

Kaiser

Didn’t he order Chiaotsu to paralyze Goku so that Tien could wreck him without resistance? Seems pretty villainous to me. It was Tien telling Chiaotsu to stop in order to have a fair fight against Goku that lead to Tien and Chiaotsu abandoning the Crane School and eventually joining the Turtle School.

Guest2139379871

Nam is the “indian” guy fighting for water in Dragon Ball.

Kaiser

Oh, sure enough! My bad, yo.

Devid Kerber

That was the master of the crane school ….
Nam was the monk that came to tournament to
save his village from a drought using the prize money

Kaiser

Yup! My bad. Got the ol’ wires crossed.

BlueMageBrilly

The idea behind him is probably the same around the Androids and Beerus: They were antagonists more than villains.

Devid Kerber

Nah man …. committing crimes out of pleasure or spite makes them villains alright
but Nam didn’t do any of that.

Institubeur

He did try to kill Goku, but at the time Dragon Ball was still a pretty playful manga, with no serious characters, you can make the argument that he is the first one to fill that spot.
Maybe it’s clearer in the anime (I don’t remember it very well).

Karthull

He didnt try to kill goku, just take him out unless the english translatjon was wrong it was something like he’ll be unconscious for 10 days, and I still say tien shouldve been more then honorable mention, while he may not have actually DONE much, he was so mean and malicious in what he did

Devid Kerber

As far as I can remember it, Tien scammed villages for profit,
tried to kill Goku to shut him up about it and aspired a future career
as an assassin like the man he idolized : Tao Baibai.
Besides there were also some interesting filler villains
Like Ginkako and Kinkako (gild and silver) the bandit brothers,
robbing villages and turning people into Sake with their magic bottle.
Or Shula, the best fighter of the Demon World
raiding a nearby kingdom and kidnapping it’s princess to force her to marry him.

Connor Caines-Mandeville

What evil did nam didn’t do? All jokes aside I’m confused as you

Red Hood ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵃᶜᶜᵒᵘᶰᵗ

So Broly is being released today or tomorrow?

Bzdanof

Tomorrow

Brian Rodriguez

Todamorrow

HOLLOWTGH

Monster carrot > Freeza

Lupu

duuuh

Andrew McCunn

“When people compare their power to you, you know you’ve made it.”
So uh… how many Raditz’s is Frieza again?

Raptor052

Doing some cheap math, but let’s take Freeza’s Second Form at a base value of 1 million, and say that each transformation after that is doubled, that would put his initial power level in his final form at 4 million, and he was only using 1% of his maximum. So Freeza had a power level of 400 Million, Raditz was at around 1,200 I think it would take 333,333.3r Raditz to equal Freeza.

Brian Rodriguez

Then you put in the Golden Frieza multiplier which is about 1000 times stronger than Final Form Frieza and you get 480,000,000,000,000 and i fixed your original math as well so it was actually 480 billion Raditzes to make one final form frieza.

Galileo Figaro

Or if we’re fans of the pun his voice actor made regarding him being a “nice guy”, his power level is at about 10^20, which in turn means that Golden Freeza is in fact worth 8.33333333e16 Raditzes.
That’s a lot of Raditz.

Egg_Runner

guys, guys… just get some Asian dude to do it

Deecks

Most of the estimates I’ve seen from powerlevel weirdoes say that Freeza’s 100% final form was around 120 million (compared to Goku, who was three million, enough to contest him at 50% with a x20 Kaioken and crush him at 100% with the x50 Super Saiyan). That’s a nice round hundred thousand Raditzes.

They really turned Frieza into a Joke villain.
In a way, kind of pissed that Trunks showed up and made quick work of him.

TactilePope

I’m more pissed that a couple of HUMAN kids that Gero stuck some spare parts into (17 and 18) are a league more powerful than Freeza.

Galileo Figaro

Well, at least Freeza showed those up by becoming the third(fourth?) most powerful being in his universe by training for four months. Seriously, if this guy decided to hit the gym once a month or so, his reign would have never ended.

It may not be canon (given how Trunks pretty much vaporized him) but maybe Gero was able to scavenge some tech from Cyber-Frieza and his ship? We saw how Cyber-Frieza was supposed to be stronger than Frieza, so maybe that tech put in a human could have similar effects?

Not a great explanation, and you can poke holes, but something to help justify the power creep the Cell Saga had over Frieza.

Jack Shomo

I feel like King Cold could have been the franchise’s greatest villain. The true ruler of the galaxy, an older more experienced, no nonsense, regal, murderus version of Frieza. Instead he has little to no personality, and gets killed, to quote Frieza, “Like a Bitch”.

OverHYPEdVegeta

Last three words in your comment were what I was thinking when I had my suspicions confirmed that Frieza would be second to none…

Mal

Put the Thesaurus down.

RandomShinigami7

“Have you seen any films about “Platinum Cell”? “Diamond Buu”?”
Please don’t give Toriyama ideas. Look, I like Frieza (see my previous “ALL HAIL LORD FRIEZA” comment) but hyping up his new form only for it to turn out to be a shiny re-colour of his final/true form was a big let down.

Galileo Figaro

Well, if you want to go for a headcanon/in-universe explanation regarding that little canandrum, you could always pretend that the form was by design made to be simple and with a golden trim as a final spit in the Saiyan’s heritage by mocking essentially the legend they so much worshipped by becoming that legend on his own right.
But, if we’re going to be honest with ourselves, yes, the final form is a bit of a let-down, but honestly, I don’t think anything more extravagant would fit Freeza’s design and character.

Royal Conquest

That’s exacty what it is. He states himself that he chose the colour on purpose.

Stache Hand

Besides the matter of his insane fanatics, why couldn’t Brock have ended up in the honorable mentions?

You guys at TFS sure got me there with the Monster Carrot bit. Now, a couple of things about Freeza’s saga on Namek. His saga is the only Dragon Ball Z saga that doesn’t have a villain who turns to the side of the heroes. Vegeta from the Saiyan Saga, #18/Lazuli from the Artificial Human Saga, Mister (Fat) Boo from the Majin Boo Saga, they turned over new leaves in good time. None of the bad guys from the Namek Saga decide to ditch Freeza’s army to fight alongside Goku and friends. Another thing is that he seems to give an eerie first impression for first time readers/watchers. In the manga, he killed Dende’s brother, not Dodoria. Plus, no matter what version you’re looking at, he’s in a flying chair. You’d think at first, the whole thing about his terror is as Hyperbolic as the Room of Spirit and Time, but once he starts picking off somebody as powerful as Nail, that’s when you realize there’s a reason he’s the dreaded tyrannical emperor of Universe 7. One more thing, a rather terrifying thing, is that he was naturally that strong, but with several months of training, he could fight on par with a God Saiyan. If he had thought to train prior to the Namek Saga, not even Super Saiyan Goku or Super Saiyan Trunks would’ve stood in his way, and Earth would be as good as doomed. Good thing it took him until his own movie to think of that.

A shame that his colourful empire had to fall because revenge was apparently more important than his dominance over the cosmos.

King Cold: “Oh well, you win some, you lose some.”

William Vincent

Well played.

Jonathan Searle

WEN RILDO

Vyllckart

Yamcha?! YAMCHA DIDNT GET THE WIN?! UNSUBSCRIBED!

Lupu

I already did that when you didn’t make it in top 3

JK, that was a great list, but seriously WHERE IS YAMCHA AND RILDO?

William “LEGOMania27” Breen-Ha

Yo, but seriously, Monster Carrot is easily the greatest villain.

Ajay Paulose

How did taking him to the mood not make goku go ape?

Kaliaila

It is the reflected light from the moon that causes it. For the same reason as why you do not see the reflected light from the earth. It was countered by the normal light. Also, their might be an additional amount of refraction that occurs when it passes through our atmosphere.

Inuzuna

well in DBZ logic a great ape is produced by the Blutz Waves that are created when sunlight is reflected off the moon. the full moon releases enough of the Blutz Waves off the surface to trigger a mutation in the Saiyan by multiplying the influence of the primal d.n.a. held within the Saiyan’s tail. my guess is since he was so close to the moon he was only getting a fraction of the Blutz Waves but we’ll never know, especially since in Dragon Ball Blutz Waves didn’t exist

so back then it was probably that he needed to see the entire moon at once, but thats just a concept

TactilePope

The biggest villain is power levels and the countless fanboy arguments they spawned.

…oh crap. Everyone that argues with the people that post that are like Vegita. They pushed the Goku button.

Deecks

I always find it funny how it’s always Goku that those people go for. Buu Saga Goku wasn’t even the strongest person in Dragonball, much less in anime.

GreatWyrmGold

I see the villain as not the power levels Frieza and his minions used, but the narrative structures which supported them almost perfectly.

And to counter the most obvious counterpoint: every time scouters come to an incorrect conclusion about if X can beat Y, it’s either because Y was suppressing his power or hadn’t transformed—and in either case, once they reached full power, the scouter accurately reported Y’s ability to kick X’s ass. (The one exception being when Goku fought Jeice and Burter, and Ginyu quickly deduced that Goku was switching between powered-up and powered-down states quickly enough that neither noticed the change in Goku’s power level.
More importantly, the narrative structure of Dragon Ball Z favors some form of power measurement. Very nearly every fight is won because Y is stronger than X (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyKungFuIsStrongerThanYours). Not because Y understands their power better, not because Y’s powers or techniques counter X’s, not because of tactics or planning or equipment or anything. If X is weaker than Y, they will lose if they don’t find a way to make themselves stronger or (occasionally) Y weaker. The number of fights which don’t play out perfectly according to this formula can be counted on one hand.

RisingTide Recruiter

Team Four Star thou are the true kais

Kabraxius

If you could actually find that many, I think the top 24 things about GT that didn’t suck would be fun for a future dbcember.

I’ve made $104k in last twelve months by freelancing from home a­­n­­d I did that by w­orking part time f­o­r 3+ h on daily basis. I’m using an earning model I stumbled upon online and I am excited that I was able to earn so much money. It’s really beginner-friendly a­n­d I’m so grateful that i found it. Here is what i did… http://twitter.com/StinnettMargar1/status/836198594390601728

I have earned 104000 bucks in last twelve months by doing an online job and I was able to do it by work­ing part-time f­­o­­r 3+ h /daily. I’m using a business model I came across from company that i found online and I am thrilled that I was able to earn so much money. It’s really beginner-friendly a­­n­­d I’m just so grateful that i discovered it. Here is what i did… http://mybm.com/cSqwB

I’ve profited $104000 last year by freelancing on-line and I did that by working part time f­o­r several h /daily. I followed an earning model I stumbled upon online and I am so thrilled that i was able to make so much money. It’s beginner friendly and I’m just so blessed that i learned about it. This is what i do… please visit my account for webpage

I was paid $104000 in last twelve months by doing an online job a­n­d I did that by w­orking in my own time f­o­r 3+ h every day. I followed a business model I found on-line and I am excited that i was able to make so much money on the side. It’s really newbie friendly and I’m just so blessed that i discovered this. Check out what I do… https://twitter.com/StinnettMargar1/status/835382203185967104

I’ve profited 104 thousand dollars last year by doing an on-line job from home and I did it by w­o­r­k­i­n­g part-time for few hours /daily. I was following an earning model I found on-line and I am amazed that i earned such great money. It’s really newbie friendly a­n­d I’m so happy that i discovered this. This is what i did… http://easyurl.net/9861f

I’ve made 104000 dollars in last 12 months by freelancing from my house a­n­d I was able to do it by working part-time f­o­r few h every day. I followed work model I found online and I am excited that i made so much money on the side. It’s really beginner friendly a­­n­­d I am just so happy that i learned about it. Here is what i do… http://budurl.me/wrs4

I’ve made 104 thousand bucks in 2016 by working from my home a­n­d I did it by work­ing part time f­o­r 3+ hrs each day. I was following an earning opportunity I found online and I am thrilled that i was able to make so much extra income. It’s so beginner-friendly a­n­d I’m so thankful that i found this. Here is what i do… http://marketing25.weebly.com

I got paid 104 thousand dollars in last 12 months by working from my house a­­n­­d I was able to do it by working part-time f­o­r 3 or sometimes more hrs daily. I’m using a money making opportunity I was introduced by this web-site i found on-line and I am so thrilled that i made so much extra income. It’s so beginner-friendly a­n­d I’m just so grateful that i learned about it. Here’s what I did… http://www.wzurl.me/tEXzrw

My intimate pictures here ….

•¸±¨÷›–→·÷—…›¤¤

Tommy C (canibulisumBRO)

freeza is great from first to final form. but full power freeza just looks stupid

Deecks

I think it works, honestly. It’s supposed to be a last-minute oh-shit desperation shot, and it looks like that.

Chaos

Yep, just like Trunks in the Cell saga. Anyone can do it. Cell did it to prove a point. Vegeta and Goku both realized how useless the form would be.

Jason

Biggest surprise: no attempt at making a case for Mr. Popo in the top slot. It’s a duel between him and Nappa as to whom TFS made into a bigger star. Or was that the point of “Popo the Genie”?

Willem Jansen

I hoped for Ledgic to make the honorable mention 🙁

Carlos Puente Ramirez

I can´t believe you forgot to mention the best villain in the entire series
The fanboys

William “LEGOMania27” Breen-Ha

XD

John Lienhart

Here’s some interesting things about Freeza’s inspiration:
His design in based on an amalgamation of what Toriyama thought monsters looked like.
His personality is based on his editor Yu Kondo, (the guy who complained about Cell) and real estate speculators during the Japanese economic bubble that was occurring, who he considered the worst kind of people

While I suppose I agree with the list, sparing some order here and there, I did enjoy Cell the most. Freeza felt too distanced from the story, relying on henchmen to do his dirty work, at least until they were all dead. His first form was remarkably underwhelming and simply exuded discomfort. When his first form was matched enough, he transformed into a 2nd form but Piccolo fused with Nail was more than a match for him. Then he reached his 3rd form which was strong enough but the concept art just didn’t strike me as terrifying. His final form at least seemed to have more class to it, but of course ultimately fell to the power of a super saiyan. I felt his mecha form was also a joke and not remotely intimidating, nor did it last long.

Cell, on the other hand played a direct role from conception. He personally absorbed entire cities just to further his own power. His 2nd form could have used some work, but as was previously noted, it was rushed through. The perfect form, however; truly exuded perfection. Absolute confidence. Easily dispatched anyone who thought to challenge him, most by creating miniature versions of himself which I simply consider an ability of Cell rather than their own villains. His voice acting was perfect and the theme music was unforgettable. Everything tied together so well with Cell which is why I like him the most. Cell’s villainy seemed relatable while Freeza seemed almost comically evil. I acquiesce the first spot to Freeza, merely under the terms of his influence on the DB universe as a whole, but feel his flaws take away from any ability to relate or appreciate his character. Freeza was written to be disliked, and disliked him I did though perhaps for the wrong reasons.

Lupu

But Cell felt as a plot device after he becomes Perfect. Everything about what was great about Cell kinda comes out short after his perfect form.

Chaos

I suppose I disagree. I idolized Perfect Cell. He was the epitome of the strongest fighters in the universe. He was powerful, commanding, confident, unwavering, dignified; perfection. Up until Gohan turned SSJ2, Cell always kept his composure and was my favorite character by far. I also appreciated Gohan, but felt his arrogance was overplayed and drawn out. To contrast, with Cell it felt only natural every step of the way.

VenomMelendez

“I idolized Perfect Cell”, kinda means you’re bias then, no offense.

Objectively speaking , Freeza is the better villain.

And you’re wrong, Cell didn’t keep his composure, he broke down just like freeza.

Chaos

I don’t believe you read my posts. I explicitly stated I acquiesce the first spot to Freeza, merely under the terms of his influence on the DB universe as a whole, but feel his flaws take away from any ability to relate or appreciate his character. I also explicitly stated Up until Gohan turned SSJ2, Cell always kept his composure and was my favorite character by far. Cell only lost his composure when the games were no longer in his control and he was effortlessly outmatched.

GreatWyrmGold

To me, just about every Dragon Ball villain feels like more of a plot device than a character.

Okay, real talk: why is everyone singling out this Monster Carrot character as the mock choice for #1?

Cephalo the Pod

Aww, I was kinda hoping for small blurbs on each Honourable Mention.

Jack

So you say Frieza’s impact spans father than any character, in that he conquers worlds, but what about Beerus? He’s been around for millions of years and has more than likely destroyed, millions of planets and quite probably has the highest body count of anyone, so I’d call his impact a lot higher than Frieza’s in that regard

Sailor Mewni

The particular things like destroying Planet Vegeta, and sending out the babies like Goku…..Freeza set in motion most of the events of the series. I would say Beerus is the better character though

Scott “KaiserNeko” Frerichs

Aw damn. We didn’t give Rildo an honorable mention. WELL HERE’S ONE IN THE COMMENTS

Jack

Thank you

Andrew

WEN PARA PARA! I’M UNSUBBING

(great list guys, luv you <3)

Deecks

I’d have liked to see some reasoning behind the Honorable Mentions, at least in why they didn’t advance further. Of course, most of them were lackeys (Dabura, Spopovitch, the Cell Juniors), ripoffs (Lord Slug, Android 13), or barely villains (Nam, the Crane School), but even then…

danker than you

Nam wasn’t a villain

Deecks

He was given an Honorable Mention at the very start, presumably for the fact that he is indeed an antagonist.

Oh yes, lets give an honorable mention to a lowly maggot whose only accomplishments are turning things into metal and beating up toddlers who change their hair.

Bradley James Mason

Sounds like a killer song… *Headbangs to new “Metal”*

Zak Fellows

How about next year

Top 24 Sagas

Top 24 Fights

Sailor Mewni

Top 24 Good Things About GT

Chaos

There would need to be 24 good things about GT in the first place for that…

Chaos

Umm, there aren’t 24 Sagas?

Sben

If you include Dragon Ball, Z, GT, and what Super has right now, and keep the various filler sagas along with the main ones, it’d reach about 21. It would be a great idea in a few years.

Kaliaila

Super’s inclusion would depend on whether it concludes before Xmas or not.

Anna

You COULD make it, particularly if you sub-divide (Imp Cell/Perfect Cell/Cell Games, Raditz/Saiyan sagas) as some sources do.That might impact a lot of placement though, and then you get into the arguments about WHICH subdivisions count because some are arbitrary (Perfect Cell/Cell Games), while some actually make a little more sense (Raditz and Saiyan sagas feel quite different and are (roughly) equal length (in the original cut)). And some are hard to define (If you sub-divide the Tournament and Babidi sagas, where does it count?).

Chaos

Yea, it would just be ridiculous. In my eyes, the Saiyan saga was pretty much the same for Raditz through Vegeta. I mean, Raditz only was only a few episodes. Then there’s the nonsense Snake Way and King Kai training which honestly just felt like filler before Nappa and Vegeta show up.

Then there’s the Frieza saga, though I suppose you could loosely argue Frieza’s minions and Freiza to have their own arcs, I still only recognize it as Frieza saga.

I COULD be swayed to view the Android saga and the Cell saga as different, though I’m not sure at what point one stops being the other. Perhaps when Cell shows up to fight 17?

Then the Buu saga is only one saga in my eyes, despite the variety of Buus involved.

The end. All of Z’s sagas. We don’t talk about GT. There are sagas of course to consider in Dragon Ball but I was never as much a fan seeing as I watched DBZ first so the lack of real power or beam struggles was a letdown. That being said, I would not consider myself credible enough to divide arcs there. Super isn’t over and I highly doubt it will be over a mere 11 months from now so I don’t see that happening.

Al-Khafid I. Walker

Thank You I never understood why the arcs were split like that. I only see the Saiyan, Android, Cell (that includes his introduction, Perfect and Cell Games) and Buu Saga.

Chaos

What about Frieza? :p

Al-Khafid I. Walker

Its just the Frieza saga splitting it up into the Ginyu Force, Captain Ginyu and Planet Namek saga just never made sense to me.

He was probably put on there due to his weight in the series; the bringing of both “Hell Fighter 17” and the original Android 17 together took the opening of HELL. It brought back just about every single Dragonball villain, including ones deemed non-canon. It also brought upon Krillin’s third death in the franchise, bringing out a rage into Android 18, and forced Goku to pull out all the stops to defeat him. We also saw Gero again, who had a rather… emotional second death.

Overall it as just a weird-ass fanfictiony saga, right down to Super 17’s shitty weakness. Not to mention the fact that Goten and Trunks didn’t even bother to fuse. At least we got one good one-liner from Vegeta, though:

“I have to admire your ability to stand up after that.”
“And I, admire your ability to DIE!”

GreatWyrmGold

I think they were running out of villains. Who didn’t make the main list or the honorable mentions? Monster Carrot?

Jack

Aw, you didn’t give General Rildo an honourable mention. Damn you Kasier!

Sailor Mewni

Rildo is #0!

Jack

I know he’s not great, but I like his fight against Goku. One of the better parts of GT and the fact that this guy could literally merge with the planet they’re fighting on, effectively making him invincible. It was a really good and original idea for a fight, even if it didn’t get explored very well, but he was definitely a bigger challenge for Goku

Chaos

I felt Rildo was possibly the worst villain in GT, not that that’s saying much. His power wasn’t really that impressive at all. Consider that planet busters was ancient history by this point and all they need do is vaporize the planet. Done. As far as his breath ability, it’s just a rehash of Dabura’s spit. I found the entire arc utterly disappointing, with the only redeemable quality of DBZ being Baby.

Jack

Goku said Rilldo was stronger than Buu, which isn’t saying much because a lot of people were. Like I said, what make Rilldo’s fight against Goku entertaining is the fact that this guy could merge with the entire planet the were on, making him very hard to beat. You say they can just destroy the planet, yet this would mean they lose their ship, not to mention Goku would kill Pan and Trunks in the process. And Goku cant breath in space. So, blowing up the planet was never an option

Bzdanof

FRIEZA or FREEZA !!! its so hard not to glamorize him

Sailor Mewni

Monster Carrot > Burly da Stupid Saiyan

In all honesty Freeza earned this spot.

Sailor Mewni

Here is a challenge for next year:

DBcember 2017: Top 24 Good Things About Dragon Ball GT

Cephalo the Pod

I actually think this might be a great list, especially since GT was completely left out from the first DBcember.

Bzdanof

#1 the ending , #2 it ended #3 baby #4 it’s not canon ….

Sailor Mewni

There were some good lines, and fights. Each good fight, and some really good lines or ideas can take spots.

Bzdanof

If you were being serious , Nuova Shenron should get a spot , the real challenge is giving the para para brothers a spot for anything

Malcolm Williams

Can’t say I’m surprised here. Great explanations all around

Sailor Mewni

Some honorable mentions from me:

Videl – I would say she would not be on the list for the same reason as Tien. Now, I know what you’re thinking how is Gohan’s wife a villain? Well, as I said, I would say antagonist, since she served as the main ‘villain’ of the Saiyaman Saga, as the one trying to unmask Gohan. Her being the only person with enough brain bower to figure out Gohan being Saiyaman is one thing, but there is a bit more. How cunning and determined she was interesting, and not only that, but she actually succeed! Gohan was revealed as Saiyaman, and she even got flying lessons and a Gohan as a boyfriend in the process. Not only that, but after blackmailing Gohan, her development into the lovable tomboy we know now was great too. During her training she managed to open herself up a bit, and become rather likable. Personally if I were to count her, I would have put her around #12.

Towa – The whole altering time thing is original for a DragonBall villain, and her gathering energy to create the ultimate life form is a good combination of Babidi and Cell. Honestly I find her better than both of the ones I listed.