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[quote=Mark R.] Our friend Perri Knize wrote an entire, wonderful book about doing precisely what I've described. Perri's case was similar to others like those you've described. It was a major inspiration for my own piano quest.

Keep in mind that the title of that book is Grand Obsession...

i quite enjoyed perri's book, but must confess that i often wondered if her vision quest was ultimately realized by the repeated playing of a couple of mendelssohn's "songs without words". 'obsession' carries a pejorative connotation; something out of balance, koyaanisqatsi. i have extraordinarily accomplished friends who have mediocre pianos that are out of tune most of the time, but when they play, it matters little. i suppose one could say they are obsessed with the music. in any case, the middle path serves most of us well, most of the time. everything in moderation, including moderation, as it's been said.

that said, i'll be the first to admit that my instrument is above my 'play grade', and i'm happy to see steinways and faziolis in homes of modest abilities. it's a good thing dealers don't make us audition for our choices, and it's a sad thing that those who really deserve the finest instruments can't afford them.

My goodness, T-dot... You surely do get peeved when people try to divert your thread hijacking efforts...

You know, you're the second person to tell me that my comments here are getting in the way of the parade. I asked the first one to apply his noggin to fashioning some sort of an explanation of what the parade theme is. I'll ask you to do the same.

The way I see it, Keith provided the itch -- a guy gone mad from lusting over a high-ticket piano. You provided the scratch with your sage financial advice about what one can accomplish if "you're willing to "bargain creatively, drive an old car, and refinance your house". In between the two, you provided the climactic moment when you wrote:

"from the minute I touched this piano it was number one on my list, and there was no number two -- though I played lots of really nice pianos. It was like the "thunderbolt" moment in the novel, The Godfather."

More like from an old Harlequin Romance, if you substitute a guy for the piano. The mob wasn't much into pianos, although they did find some creative uses for piano wire.

No matter. I had no reaction of any kind to the thunderbolt. We're all wired differently in terms of what sets off an electric charge. For me it was the scratch, not the climax, that opened the door once again to alternate points of view on how to handle the itch. I can see how to you it just messed up the transition to the denouement, but it just stuck in my head that there was something phony and hollow about that scratch, just as there was something phony and hollow about your compliment to Gary on his alternate reality story of the humble Samick. Yeah, you quickly wrote that it was nice and you went out of your way to state how you appreciated it as much as anyone, but that just served as a promo for yet another rerun of your core message.

At this point I've had a change of heart, though hardly a thunderbolt. I've got to tell you with you and Smarty both on standby stumbling over my dog's name and nipping at her heels , I looked at her, she looked at me, and we both decided -- what the hey -- maybe it is your thread and we're just jealous of how you're sitting pretty on that fine piano of yours.

So to make a long story short, we're throwing in the towel. I was wrong. It is your thread. Clearly it is your thread. Getting in the way just ain't worth it, and it does mess up the plot line.

It reminds me in many ways of my Uncle Leo. He was christened Leo, but everyone in the family called him Uncle Same-ol behind his back. He was the epitome of the self-made man...absolutely relentless with his repetitious stories. His wife, Aunt Corine, had chronic headache problems which were rumored to be caused by severe constipation which in turn was rumored to be caused by life with Leo. Of course this diagnosis was never talked about publicly at family gatherings.

Uncle Leo's favorite story was how right out of college he went to work for Goodyear Tire and Rubber for only $3.10 an hour, and how from that humble start, through the sweat of his brow he made his fortune. What he never mentioned was that when he went to Goodyear, the minimum wage was $1.00 an hour. None of us really knew what Uncle Leo's fortune was. There were stories that it wasn't all he cracked it up to be, but nobody really knew.

Leo's pride, joy, and conspicuous badge of success was a Chrysler Imperial that he spent his retirement years washing and waxing repeatedly. Leo did everything repeatedly, but God knows, he really did love that car. It served as the crowning symbol of his life well spent. The only thing was, when you got a ride in it, he became even more insufferable than usual as he puffed up before your very ears, sitting at the helm of such a beautiful piece of machinery.

I never let on about it to my dad, who I always suspected was jealous of his brother, but I really loved Uncle Leo. It was clear that he hadn't had it easy. his siblings all had careers that his parents liked talking about. He was the guy who spent his life at the rubber plant. Corine liked church socials and potlucks. He liked the ticket window at the track and the bleacher seats at the ballgame. When he got cataracts and driving became risky, he let me pilot the aging Imperial to take him to his many doctor appointments. His health was failing fast and he knew it. He was deflating. When he passed on, I was there reading a book to him. That was another thing about Leo. He could listen. He loved a good story more than he loved his own bloated boasting.

So, am I peeved at you? Not at all, not in the least. I love a good story too.

"from the minute I touched this piano it was number one on my list, and there was no number two -- though I played lots of really nice pianos. It was like the "thunderbolt" moment in the novel, The Godfather.

This is exactly what "should happen" when making a purchase:there are many testimonials here by people involving much less suspect makes than Steingraeber.

To me Keith's comments were enjoyable to read as he, as several others here, has across a GREAT NUMBER of top class pianos in his life.

Once these "seasoned travellors" have found something truly special to them, it might be just worth taking it pretty well at face value "accepting the ride"...

That ranking stie is interesting even though it doesn't reveal much about itself. Some of the comments lead me to believe it is an honest collective effort and not slapped together for a commercial purpose. You should post it as an opener in a new thread.

An interesting set of opinions, but without background and methodology, the lists aren't anything but lists.

Even if there were more backstory, I'm sure I would agree with Norbert's earlier point -- that the differences among pianos in this tier are mainly sorted according to personal preferences of players and listeners. I have my preferences, and others have theirs, but that should mean nothing to someone else choosing his or her piano.

An interesting set of opinions, but without background and methodology, the lists aren't anything but lists.

Well, as long as you're going to comment on it, I'll assume it's a permissible detour on your thread.

I agree with the lack of background, but methodology is really tough with acoustic pianos. There's been some success with digitals because they open themselves more readily to quantifying measurables. You're not stuck on dark, bright, full, thin, deep, and all that stuff.

With acoustic rankings, maybe the best you can hope for is that it's an honest effort and not a sales ploy concocted by an inside interest. Ultimately, you compare it to your own and possibly find some matches, possibly not.

The thing I noticed about this site is that it took on specific models. IOW unlike Fine for example, it didn't stay just at the brand level. It was also willing to reveal some of its shortcomings.....only one sample of a Bosie 130 (unprepped at that) and apologies for not getting to Vienna, apologies to Yamaha for putting up the S and not the CFX, and a sharp divide of opinion on AF rather than any consensus. Those are only examples. There were more.

I sent an email asking for more info on the composition of their ranking panel. I'll post something if they reply.

"from the minute I touched this piano it was number one on my list, and there was no number two -- though I played lots of really nice pianos. It was like the "thunderbolt" moment in the novel, The Godfather.

This is exactly what "should happen" when making a purchase:there are many testimonials here by people involving much less suspect makes than Steingraeber.

To me Keith's comments were enjoyable to read as he, as several others here, has across a GREAT NUMBER of top class pianos in his life.

Once these "seasoned travellors" have found something truly special to them, it might be just worth taking it pretty well at face value "accepting the ride"...

Why not simply "enjoy"?

Norbert

Indeed. That was the intent I read into Keith's original post and a lot of the great followup comments consistent with it.

This pianoranking site could be something of substance, but without more information it is of little value. Further I like "group rankings" much better than an order that appears to say "first place", "second place", etc.

Even though the author says this is not a strict ranking, it certainly asppears to be just that.

Also, IMHO, the author is not a native english speaker. I only say this because the choice of wording is sometimes awkward (but so is mine occasionally) and the misspellings are simple words that could have been easily proofread.

That is not a very useful website. All the top pianos seem to be "regular", with the top brand being perfectly regular.... (...I know what is meant, but compulsory interpretation and needless ambiguity and are not helpful...)

IMHO, the author is not a native english speaker. I only say this because the choice of wording is sometimes awkward (but so is mine occasionally) and the misspellings are simple words that could have been easily proofread.

Either that or it was slapped together.

My quick 2 cents,

I think from the syntax the original is French, a far bigger curse than not being a native English speaker.

Jurgen,

I took it to mean regulation. But I could be wrong. I don't have experience with piano action laxatives.

This pianoranking site could be something of substance, but without more information it is of little value. Further I like "group rankings" much better than an order that appears to say "first place", "second place", etc.

Even though the author says this is not a strict ranking, it certainly asppears to be just that.

Also, IMHO, the author is not a native english speaker. I only say this because the choice of wording is sometimes awkward (but so is mine occasionally) and the misspellings are simple words that could have been easily proofread.

Either that or it was slapped together.

My quick 2 cents,

Agreed. For the little we all know, these folks could be real piano experts, but their lists purport to be hierarchical with no explanation of the system employed or the people employing it. They may be independent experts, they may be affiliated with some in the industry, or they may be no experts at all -- we just don't know.

In addition to not displaying qualifications or metrics, there's very little explanation of the basis for distinctions among the various pianos described, and the few distinctions drawn are done using language so general and subjective as to convey little information.

Again, these folks may be top-notch, and their blog may develop into a rival for Piano Buyer, but lacking either quantitative or qualitative evaluation factors, it has a ways to go.

Personally, I got a lot more information out of Keith's humorous original post, and from various descriptions others here have posted about different pianos they have acquired or played.

If you buy a new Steingraeber, you will regret it. I don't know how else to put this. Consider yourself warned by one who knows.

We received a shipment of new Steingraebers on Wednesday of this week. I can no longer sleep, eat or concentrate.

On Wednesday, we opened a 212 and a 192. After working a 12 hour day, in which most of it was spent doing mind numbing tasks, I made the mistake of sitting down at the 212.

I blinked and 2 hours had gone by. It was close to 11 pm and I didn't care. I hadn't eaten since breakfast and I didn't care. All I wanted to do was play this piano. I was smitten. Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Bartok, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff and more got played and each sounded better than the last. I enjoyed playing the piano. I wanted to practice. I wanted to play. The piano was inspiring me. It was teaching me. It was helping me sound better than I deserved, yet at the same time showing me how very far I had to go. I had thoughts of giving concerts. I was ready to toss it all, find a cave somewhere, and it would just be me and a Steingraeber and I would do nothing but practice, play and compose.

I fell in love with that piano. Seriously. Love. I was so deep in love that I asked that Steingraeber to marry me. I knew I wasn't worthy, but I thought I could become a better man if only that piano would have me.

Well, fortunately for me, it didn't respond to my proposal, because today we finally got around to opening up the 232. I would like to express my response to that piano, but this is a family website.What the heck. HOLY MOTHER @#(*@#(@&#(@&#@(#&@(#&@*&#(@&# how is it possible?That 232 is so good, my head exploded. Literally. That is the only reason I stopped playing. KABOOM. Head exploded. It is some kind of miracle that I can even write this with an exploded head. It shouldn't be possible. I think I am summoning my last bits of strength to warn others, so they don't share the same fate as me.

Please listen. Unless you want to end up wanting to marry a piano, while no longer being able to take care of your normal responsibilities such as concentrating at work and being productive, not to mention completely ignoring your basic human needs such as eating and sleeping, quite possibly ending up living in a cave by yourself with only a Steingraeber piano, and spending what is left of your life with an exploded head, PLEASE DO NOT BUY A STEINGRAEBER PIANO.

heck, it is playing with fire to even try one.

I know for some of you this will fall on deaf ears, but if I can just save one person from my fate, it will all be worth it.

I would write more, but I have to leave. The only hardware store that sells surgical quality duct tape for holding one's skull together is closing soon, and if the rest of my brain falls out, I might drool on the Steingraebers as I play them and that just seems wrong somehow. Although, I suppose that might disuade anyone from buying one of them and taking them from me. Mine! All MINE!!!!!!! MuahahahHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Well, if you have gotten this far, you cannot plead ignorance. Whatever fate you suffer at the hands of a Steingraeber piano is your own fault.

HmmDo you know why Steingraebers are so uknown in the piano lovers industry? IF they are horribly well made - better then Steinways Faziolic Bossiec etc, so why the are not in big concert halls and CD's used as recorded pianos?

Is it really only the case of marketing?If yes - why they do not do the same what Fazioli is doing- from few years everybody is talking about Fazioli.

To be honest, I know the Steingraeber name from at leat 10 years, but I NEVER RECOGNIZED IT AS TOP-END PIANO MAKER. Just some on of many european piano makers which is putting their pianos on festivals and etc.

So, if they are so damn good, why still so little people know this company, or if they now - why it's not recozniged as the same class as S&S, Bossie, Shigeru etc?

If you buy a new Steingraeber, you will regret it. I don't know how else to put this. Consider yourself warned by one who knows.

We received a shipment of new Steingraebers on Wednesday of this week. I can no longer sleep, eat or concentrate.

On Wednesday, we opened a 212 and a 192. After working a 12 hour day, in which most of it was spent doing mind numbing tasks, I made the mistake of sitting down at the 212.

I blinked and 2 hours had gone by. It was close to 11 pm and I didn't care. I hadn't eaten since breakfast and I didn't care. All I wanted to do was play this piano. I was smitten. Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Bartok, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff and more got played and each sounded better than the last. I enjoyed playing the piano. I wanted to practice. I wanted to play. The piano was inspiring me. It was teaching me. It was helping me sound better than I deserved, yet at the same time showing me how very far I had to go. I had thoughts of giving concerts. I was ready to toss it all, find a cave somewhere, and it would just be me and a Steingraeber and I would do nothing but practice, play and compose.

I fell in love with that piano. Seriously. Love. I was so deep in love that I asked that Steingraeber to marry me. I knew I wasn't worthy, but I thought I could become a better man if only that piano would have me.

Well, fortunately for me, it didn't respond to my proposal, because today we finally got around to opening up the 232. I would like to express my response to that piano, but this is a family website.What the heck. HOLY MOTHER @#(*@#(@&#(@&#@(#&@(#&@*&#(@&# how is it possible?That 232 is so good, my head exploded. Literally. That is the only reason I stopped playing. KABOOM. Head exploded. It is some kind of miracle that I can even write this with an exploded head. It shouldn't be possible. I think I am summoning my last bits of strength to warn others, so they don't share the same fate as me.

Please listen. Unless you want to end up wanting to marry a piano, while no longer being able to take care of your normal responsibilities such as concentrating at work and being productive, not to mention completely ignoring your basic human needs such as eating and sleeping, quite possibly ending up living in a cave by yourself with only a Steingraeber piano, and spending what is left of your life with an exploded head, PLEASE DO NOT BUY A STEINGRAEBER PIANO.

heck, it is playing with fire to even try one.

I know for some of you this will fall on deaf ears, but if I can just save one person from my fate, it will all be worth it.

I would write more, but I have to leave. The only hardware store that sells surgical quality duct tape for holding one's skull together is closing soon, and if the rest of my brain falls out, I might drool on the Steingraebers as I play them and that just seems wrong somehow. Although, I suppose that might disuade anyone from buying one of them and taking them from me. Mine! All MINE!!!!!!! MuahahahHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Well, if you have gotten this far, you cannot plead ignorance. Whatever fate you suffer at the hands of a Steingraeber piano is your own fault.

You have been warned.

I like this post, it's funny, and not attacking anyone.

Actually, Keith Kerman is diabolical! He is an evil genious trying to take over the entire piano world!!

I finally got a chance to play the Steingraeber D-232 that Keith commented on in the original post in this thread.It's every bit as good as he said.Just before I stopped by the shop, they had received another D-232 that was even better than the one Keith wrote about. At least, in my opinion, it was a bit better.

FWIW, these 2 videos are of the Steingraeber 232 that ClsscLib liked so much. The instrument in these videos has sold and is no longer available. The dynamic range in the Scriabin on this recording is quite large, so if you turn it up too much while it is soft ( it starts quite softly) , it might get too loud for you when the music gets to its more powerful moments. For those of you not familiar with this particular piece by Scriabin, you are in for a treat. Such a great piece of music.