Seriously, read this thread and the article within it, if you have not already. Then come back here and tell me that there aren't shady schools scamming students. And although I don't know if it is quite as fair to say T1s are scams in the typical sense of the word, they are certainly engaging in deceptive actions as well.

Matthies wrote:Showing the lemmenings OCI and mass mailing are stupid plans for finding a job ... they sedn out 500 mail merged unsolcited letter to firms then get upsent when the equivilant of junkmail does not end up getting them the $160k job they think the deserve.

Is this method of waiting for OCI, sending out blind application packets, and just hoping your transcript gets you a job still that prevalent? I find that hard to believe. I feel like more and more of us know - and knew before going to law school - that building a career is about building connections and proving yourself through hard work and opportunities. Also, I feel like a lot of the doom and gloom is based on expectations of massive income or thrilling careers. Not sure why some law students can't just be satisfied with a simple, normal existence. You go into it just wanting to practice law, pay for a decent mortgage and watch your kids' baseball games. There are jobs out there that provide that. They may not be glamorous, or even in the nicest cities, but life isn't always what you want. Sometimes it's what you need.

please everyone, stop whining about the numbers or exaggerated statistics. education, like so many things in our world, is a business. sure, it may not be purely profit motivated, but it is an institution's duty to attract the best students and send the best "product" out into the world to advance their reputation and attract more tuition paying students. For without tuition paying students they go bankrupt and lots of people lose their jobs. the numbers are a marketing ploy. these "numbers games" exist everywhere in society. how can we make it seem like the crime rate is down? how can we make it seem like our third grade test scores improved? I mean really, who is to say that the Hofstra median number is not correct? So what if they conveniently left out some lower figures because the students who reported them were not working in what the school technically recognized as "private practice." we all know what Disraeli said about statistics. Take ANY numbers with a grain of salt. In fact I believe they test that concept on the LSAT. there are no guarantees and no pots of gold at the end of the rainbow. you make your own path, your own contacts, your own network. OCI is great when it works in your favor but shouldn't you have a plan in case it doesn't? bottom line is stop whining and put your brain to use. it's a struggle. so what, a lot of things are. grow up already and stop complaining.

schmohawk wrote:I think people who call law school a scam are truly idiots who thought it was a get-rich-quick scheme to begin with. Grow up Peter Pan.

Scam n.- A fraudulent or deceptive act or operation.

If the use of extremely misleading statistics and (sometimes) straight up lies for the purpose of convincing students to make an unwise 6-figure investment isn't a scam, then I'd like to hear your opinion on what is.

And yes a'nold, it is late... my RC was poor on that one. But I do still think maybe you're overstating it a bit, and I'd imagine many of your classmates are SOL right now.

BTW, if I'm not the first person you tell about your WUSTL transfer decision I will be very upset.

Oh, many of them are SOL, that's for SURE. Like I said earlier, there is a point where the risk becomes greater. At my school, regardless of the economy, it isn't "if you aren't in the top 20%, watch out! You might be making, gasp, 60k at graduation! ." It's more like, "if you aren't in the top 1/3, getting a job is definitely going to be a struggle, and for anyone out of the top 5 or so students, you will be working your butt off to find a first legal job."

Something to note here, btw: See that I said FIRST legal job. Once you have that first job, you are an attorney and if you do well enough you have your career. See any matthies post for how to do this.

Matthies wrote:Showing the lemmenings OCI and mass mailing are stupid plans for finding a job ... they sedn out 500 mail merged unsolcited letter to firms then get upsent when the equivilant of junkmail does not end up getting them the $160k job they think the deserve.

Is this method of waiting for OCI, sending out blind application packets, and just hoping your transcript gets you a job still that prevalent? I find that hard to believe. I feel like more and more of us know - and knew before going to law school - that building a career is about building connections and proving yourself through hard work and opportunities. Also, I feel like a lot of the doom and gloom is based on expectations of massive income or thrilling careers. Not sure why some law students can't just be satisfied with a simple, normal existence. You go into it just wanting to practice law, pay for a decent mortgage and watch your kids' baseball games. There are jobs out there that provide that. They may not be glamorous, or even in the nicest cities, but life isn't always what you want. Sometimes it's what you need.

Disagree with your first point and VERY much agree with your second point.

I think many feel like career services will find them a job. This even happens at my t3.

I completely agree with you that the expectations on this site are just unbelievable. I've said it over and over again. A 60k job with 100k in loans is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the life most in this country will ever have, and THAT IS JUST TO START. Jeez, what do you guys want, haha.

Seriously, read this thread and the article within it, if you have not already. Then come back here and tell me that there aren't shady schools scamming students. And although I don't know if it is quite as fair to say T1s are scams in the typical sense of the word, they are certainly engaging in deceptive actions as well.

That last thread was pretty interesting, and I'll admit my foot went in my mouth for a few seconds. It was disgusting.

But my main point, which I still stand behind, is that a legal education is just that...an education. I did concede earlier that there might be shady schools out there, but that does not mean law schools in general are corrupt because students are unemployed. Most law schools that didn't pop into existence in the past twenty years generally have a strong foundation and reason for establishment...to train future lawyers. I already knew about Ave Maria, and it's obvious since it's not a non-profit that it's a scam. But still, I just have a problem with the attitude that law students are entitled to employment with W2 salary and benefits. Like someone said earlier, only doctors (and perhaps pharmacists in today's world) have that luxury, but that's only because of demand, aka "market-driven" forces which are entirely out of academia's hands.

Seriously, read this thread and the article within it, if you have not already. Then come back here and tell me that there aren't shady schools scamming students. And although I don't know if it is quite as fair to say T1s are scams in the typical sense of the word, they are certainly engaging in deceptive actions as well.

That last thread was pretty interesting, and I'll admit my foot went in my mouth for a few seconds. It was disgusting.

But my main point, which I still stand behind, is that a legal education is just that...an education. I did concede earlier that there might be shady schools out there, but that does not mean law schools in general are corrupt because students are unemployed. Most law schools that didn't pop into existence in the past twenty years generally have a strong foundation and reason for establishment...to train future lawyers. I already knew about Ave Maria, and it's obvious since it's not a non-profit that it's a scam. But still, I just have a problem with the attitude that law students are entitled to employment with W2 salary and benefits. Like someone said earlier, only doctors (and perhaps pharmacists in today's world) have that luxury, but that's only because of demand, aka "market-driven" forces which are entirely out of academia's hands.

I agree with your last point. Personally, I think a lot of the freaking out is "Waaaaah I'm not gonna make biglaw!" For me personally, give me a 60k salary in my preferred market and I will make the most of it. I don't feel entitled to a huge salary; but I do feel somewhat entitled to a job after spending 100k on a top 20 law school (which is, after all, a professional school), especially if I finish at median or higher.

romothesavior wrote:I agree with your last point. Personally, I think a lot of the freaking out is "Waaaaah I'm not gonna make biglaw!" For me personally, give me a 60k salary in my preferred market and I will make the most of it. I don't feel entitled to a huge salary; but I do feel somewhat entitled to a job after spending 100k on a top 20 law school (which is, after all, a professional school), especially if I finish at median or higher.

Seriously, read this thread and the article within it, if you have not already. Then come back here and tell me that there aren't shady schools scamming students. And although I don't know if it is quite as fair to say T1s are scams in the typical sense of the word, they are certainly engaging in deceptive actions as well.

That last thread was pretty interesting, and I'll admit my foot went in my mouth for a few seconds. It was disgusting.

But my main point, which I still stand behind, is that a legal education is just that...an education. I did concede earlier that there might be shady schools out there, but that does not mean law schools in general are corrupt because students are unemployed. Most law schools that didn't pop into existence in the past twenty years generally have a strong foundation and reason for establishment...to train future lawyers. I already knew about Ave Maria, and it's obvious since it's not a non-profit that it's a scam. But still, I just have a problem with the attitude that law students are entitled to employment with W2 salary and benefits. Like someone said earlier, only doctors (and perhaps pharmacists in today's world) have that luxury, but that's only because of demand, aka "market-driven" forces which are entirely out of academia's hands.

I agree with your last point. Personally, I think a lot of the freaking out is "Waaaaah I'm not gonna make biglaw!" For me personally, give me a 60k salary in my preferred market and I will make the most of it. I don't feel entitled to a huge salary; but I do feel somewhat entitled to a job after spending 100k on a top 20 law school (which is, after all, a professional school), especially if I finish at median or higher.

Seriously, read this thread and the article within it, if you have not already. Then come back here and tell me that there aren't shady schools scamming students. And although I don't know if it is quite as fair to say T1s are scams in the typical sense of the word, they are certainly engaging in deceptive actions as well.

That last thread was pretty interesting, and I'll admit my foot went in my mouth for a few seconds. It was disgusting.

But my main point, which I still stand behind, is that a legal education is just that...an education. I did concede earlier that there might be shady schools out there, but that does not mean law schools in general are corrupt because students are unemployed. Most law schools that didn't pop into existence in the past twenty years generally have a strong foundation and reason for establishment...to train future lawyers. I already knew about Ave Maria, and it's obvious since it's not a non-profit that it's a scam. But still, I just have a problem with the attitude that law students are entitled to employment with W2 salary and benefits. Like someone said earlier, only doctors (and perhaps pharmacists in today's world) have that luxury, but that's only because of demand, aka "market-driven" forces which are entirely out of academia's hands.

I agree with your last point. Personally, I think a lot of the freaking out is "Waaaaah I'm not gonna make biglaw!" For me personally, give me a 60k salary in my preferred market and I will make the most of it. I don't feel entitled to a huge salary; but I do feel somewhat entitled to a job after spending 100k on a top 20 law school (which is, after all, a professional school), especially if I finish at median or higher.

I think I can agree with that as it would be hard for anyone to say "I'm comfortable spending 100k on a top 20 law school and not finding a job." Obviously, I too would feel cheated if that happened. But honestly, the law profession is cyclical and completely geared towards the success of its clients. Other professional schools, particularly in the medical profession, are less cyclical. So I guess knowing that going into it takes that whole entitlement factor out of the equation. The countless discussions I've had with attorneys I know from work or through personal friendships has been centered on the changing face of the profession, and how it is more and more being geared towards customer service, aka "client-driven". So, if I'm to expect a job after spending 100k (though I won't be spending half that), I had better hope there are clients out there who need a lawyer, instead of law schools headhunting for me. I don't know, that's just my two cents.

gwuorbust wrote:well then I am def going to have to substantially increase my post count if I am going to get quoted on JDU. where is PDaddy when he is needed so I can debate some nonsense for a while...