Wednesday, January 11, 2012

Believe or die...

Galileo very wisely and accurately said, “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” But then the Quran (oops, I mean the self proclaimed prophet MO) says, “O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.” Whether you like it or not, but one has to give him full credit for being the smartest man on the face of the earth, or rather in history. He actually managed to make people stick to his illogical, senseless, cruel, evil cult centuries after his death. Why do you think Islam is widely spread?

According to the Quran and Hadeeth, a Murtad (apostate) is a person who leaves Islam openly, whereas a Munafiq (hypocrite) is someone who pretends to be a Muslim when he is not one anymore. Why would anyone pretend to be a Muslim when is not one anymore? Obviously because he loves life more than death, unlike the so called Jihads who claim to love just the opposite. In Quran 3:90-91 it says, “Lo! Those who disbelieve after their (profession of) belief, and afterward grow violent in disbelief: their repentance will not be accepted. And such are those who are astray. Lo! Those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such a one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.” Quran 4:89: “They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose neither friend nor helper from among them.” Quran 5:54: “O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleases. And Allah encompassed all, and He knoweth all things.” Quran 9:66: “Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If we pardon some of you, we will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.” Quran 9:73-74: “O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth.” Quran 88:21-24: “Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them; but whoever turns back and disbelieves, Allah will chastise him with the greatest chastisement.”

The Quran does not say clearly whether the apostate should be killed or spared, but as we all know, whatever the Quran lacked, the hadeeth more or less makes up for it. According to Sahih Bukhari (4:52:260): “Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'don’t punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' Sahih Bukhari (9:83:17): “Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." Sahih Bukhari (9:89:271): Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.”

These and many other similar hadeeths from various sources prove beyond any doubt that the Islamic Shariah punishment for apostasy is execution. This is precisely the reason why I have to hide my apostasy for the rest of my life and I have to keep on pretending to be a Muslim among other Muslims. Trust me, it is not an easy task, especially since I am not a Muslim anymore and I do not agree with anything which Islam says. It was pretty difficult being a practicing Muslim for the last 35 years, but now it is even harder. Some of my well wishers here on my blog suggested that I speak to my family about my apostasy and take their advice, but little do they know that my parents love their religion, especially their ideal perfect human being, the prophet of Islam Mohammed, more than they love their own daughter. They would not even think twice before disowning me for life, that is, if they do not kill me first in a fit of rage, which is pretty likely, come to think of it. I say this because once a couple of years ago, when I was pretty much a Muslim, I was reading “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali when my mother caught me reading it. She just read the introduction and got mad at me for even reading such a book. She said if any of my children did such a thing, I would kill her/him and then report myself to the police, I won’t mind even going to prison for such a crime because this is something which Allah and his prophet has ordered us to do. These were her very own words, so there is no way I can confide about my apostasy to anyone, especially my parents.

It means that I have two options... Either I should remain a closeted apostate for the rest of my life so that I don’t have to lose my loved ones, or I should just move to a western country and ask for asylum. It is probably the most difficult decision of my life, and so far I have not been able to come to any conclusion. The question that really baffles me is how anyone in their right senses could actually believe in Islam; it is the most illogical religion in the world. In fact, whenever I think of those 35 years I lived as a believing Muslim, I cannot but help feel anger, acute anger at Mohammed, the system, the society, and my family for making me follow something so sinister and evil, but most of all, I feel angry at myself for being such a fool. I mean, I always prided myself for being smart, educated, intelligent, intellectual and worldly, so how could I be so blind? I feel so angry sometimes that I actually contemplate suicide, because nothing in this world makes sense anymore. If the core of my belief was false, then is anything really true? I still get panic attacks and nightmares. I feel like crying all the time and I feel so alienated from my friends and family. The only solace in my otherwise meaningless existence is my blog, because I have so many friends and well wishers who love and support me in what I am doing. It helps me drag myself out of bed every morning. It really has given a new dimension to my life, and I just hope that it keeps on inspiring me in the future as well.

In my next blog, I will write about why Muslim men are so happy being Muslims, and how this religion caters to all their whims and fancies. It is totally a misogynistic doctrine which is a living nightmare for women. Till then, please keep on reading and commenting… Love you all…

192 comments:

I have been trying to comment for a while now, but have so far been unable to find the correct formula to get past the doorkeepers. I have read your posts and I would like to add my support to that of your other new friends here.I think you are lucky to have Robert Spencer as an ally. His advice will be invaluable I'm sure.

You have my sympathy for the very difficult situation you are in; but also you have my greatest respect for the bravery and strength of character you have shown. Please do not blame yourself for all those years spent as a Muslim. Many very smart people never find their way out of the belief system. Those who do are mostly the very smartest and most courageous.

I believe that you are doing more good than you probably realise. In maintaining this blog with your honest reporting on finding your way out of Islam, you are providing inspiration for potentially millions of people who may also be looking for a way out.

Just remember, there are millions of us out there who, when informed of the facts, will be completely on your side. My very best wishes for the future; in which I am sure you will make the right decision. (hint- move to the west if you can)

"If the core of my belief was false, then is anything really true?"About 99.99999% sure that God exists, the trick is finding which religion has the correct interpretation of God :)

"I still get panic attacks and nightmares. I feel like crying all the time and I feel so alienated from my friends and family. The only solace in my otherwise meaningless existence is my blog, because I have so many friends and well wishers who love and support me in what I am doing. It helps me drag myself out of bed every morning."From experience, I find sometimes the most wonderful gifts and hidden blessings, comes from the most difficult challenges. Your messages are helping countless people, and the positive effects ripples out to countless others, now and forever into the future.

Your life has great meaning, and purpose. Remember we all must eventually leave our physical bodies, but your spirit and soul is eternal. Despite what anyone says, nobody knows the mind of God. God will judge fairly, and I sincerely believe in the afterlife, you'll be eternally happy.

Some say all we need to live in heaven is to be good. Others will say, we just need to accept Jesus as our lord and savior. I say, why not get your bases covered, and just to be safe, do both :)

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

In "hadith science" there is the practice of determining the isnad, or chain of narration -- following out the "he said that he said that he said that Mohammed said" etc. -- since most of the hadiths (literally, "sayings" of Mohammed) do not simply report directly what Mohammed said.

In this particular hadith, we see the isnad goes from some guy named Ikram, who is said to have narrated the story that some other guy named Ibn 'Abbas said that Mohammed spoke the money quote. Not a very long chain there, is it? A to B to C. (One does wonder, however, who is doing the reporting about Ikram here -- Bukhari? If so, where did he get his information about what Ikram narrated?)

At any rate, for a current Muslim to effectively dispute this hadith he would have to demonstrate the following:

Either:

1) hadiths in general are not important in determining Islamic law today (and he'd have to provide proof of this sweeping claim)

or

2) hadiths are important, but this particular one is not important, because

3) this one's isnad is faulty

4) and #3 is true for internal logical reasons based on established hadith science

as well as

5) #3 reflects the standard mainstream consensus of Islamic scholars throughout the world and in all four major schools.

Until a Muslim can show all five points, we have a right and a duty to consider this particular hadith as indicative of the evil and dangerously fanatical pathology which Islam embodies and promotes and which is more or less directly related to why terrorism perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam is occurring (and being plotted to occur) in various places throughout the world, against which we free societies have a right to take whatever measures are necessary to protect ourselves.

The question that really baffles me is how anyone in their right senses could actually believe in Islam; it is the most illogical religion in the world. In fact, whenever I think of those 35 years I lived as a believing Muslim, I cannot but help feel anger, acute anger at Mohammed, the system, the society, and my family for making me follow something so sinister and evil, but most of all, I feel angry at myself for being such a fool. I mean, I always prided myself for being smart, educated, intelligent, intellectual and worldly, so how could I be so blind?

[bold emphasis added]

While all reasonable people would agree that Islam is foolish, illogical and silly, there are many other religions and belief systems which may also be reasonably adjudged that way. It doesn't much matter to me how silly and irrational, for example, the Jehovah's Witness sect is, or the Mormons, or Christian Science, or Madame Blavatsky's spiritualism, or certain types of Hinduism, or any number of pagan polytheisms or various forms of neo-snake-oil New Age claptrap. As long as they can practice their silly irrational beliefs while leading relatively peaceful and productive lives within the larger context of a society of various people who believe in different things, then I have no problems with them.

But when their belief systems encode violence against others, and furthermore a violence based in supremacist expansionist intolerance of all other beliefs -- then it becomes my business to be bothered, and to try to stop them.

I.e., Islam only matters to the rest of us because of its blueprint for violence rooted in its religious texts revered by too many of its followers as holy, to be slavishly and fanatically applied.

Note my aforementioned qualifier "too many". Were the problematic Muslims indeed merely a "tiny minority of extremists" not reflecting some putative "vast majority" of non-violent Muslims (both non-violent in practice, and in terms of abstaining from co-dependent enablement of their actively violent brothers and sisters; not to mention (would it be asking too much?) of actively counter-acting their "tiny minority" of violent brothers and sisters) -- then Muslims qua Muslims would also not be much of a problem.

But the mountain of news that keeps spewing out from around the world, indicating a systemic, metastatic pullulation of violent acts, and violent words avowed -- a mountain of data that has been steadily and horrifyingly streaming out like evil lava for years, for decades and (if one also pays attention to history, for centuries) -- indicates quite starkly that too many Muslims are putting their violent supremacist expansionist blueprint in practice, either actively or in terms of more or less passive enabling.

And as an Islam Redivivus is unfolding in this new millennium, Muslims are increasingly and belligerently making this our problem to manage. And oh, we will. Once the Sleeping Lion of the West wakes up from its asinine cat nap to the deadly global problem of Islam, it will be lights out for the comparatively paltry mosquitos that heretofore have been pestering her, thinking preposterously that a mass of mosquitos, no matter how large and determined, could ever overtake a Lion fully awake and suitably irritated.

Well put, Hesperado. But for one slight inaccuracy.Mosquitos would easily evade a lion's defences, being much faster than any large mammal, they could slip through the lion's guard; so not perhaps the most perfect metaphor.Nevertheless I love your vivid prose. I hope you keep it coming.

Here is a web site in Pakistan for Pakistani atheists and agnostics. There are great testimonials from former Muslims some of the testimonials are just hilarious. Liberated stay safe.https://e-paa.org/

And as you have come to know, expect the weasels like skouti, kai56 & co to show up and throw ad hominems. But take heart, this only means that they have nothing to level against you. They cannot present, let alone win a rational argument. The comments they post actually bolsters your position and you can put them to good use one day. Think about writing a book when you come live here in the West. In that book, everything they have slandered you with, constitutes proof of how islam turns humans into beast.

When they didn't like what you write, these muslims erupt in anger, throw sarcasm, and demean you. They are like chimpanzees who, when displeased, will jump up and down howling and throwing feces all over their cage.

Stay cool young lady, you've overcome islam and now you are just in the process of extracting yourself from its mess!

Thanks Stephen A55. You're probably right: While mosquitos can't really harm (though they can pester) a lion, the lion can't really harm the mosquitos either. In my linked essay on that metaphor/analogy, I likened Muslims to "rats", which is more logical in this regard; though it would doubtless arouse needlessly furrowed concern from our friend hugh watt, for its "Nazi" tonality.

Never mind what Muslims are doing around the world (e.g., to present a sorely incomplete list of the full horrors -- beheading people, torturing people, stabbing people 100 times in fits of fanatical frenzy, rioting and lynching people who are perceived to be a threat to their Islam, blowing up ferries, trains and planes, blowing up girls' schools, blowing up children gathering for candy during a festival, throwing acid in womens' faces, murdering one's own daughter or sister because she wore lipstick or kissed a boy in the back seat of a car, running people over in cars, demonstrating by the thousands in support of killing artists who dare to blaspheme against Mohammed; meanwhile planning far worse terrors to come)... No, the far more urgent concern for us is whether a metaphor in an essay calling attention to all these horrible and all too real acts of hatred and violence may be deemed to be "Nazi".

At any rate, the main problem with the metaphors "mosquito" or "rat" is that they are far too good for Muslims.

Yes, mosquitos and rats are not infected with irrational hatred for their fellow critters to the point where they deliberately seek to inflict suffering, as do dehumanised Muslims; they simply do what they need to do to survive.I can't think of a better metaphor than yours either, probably because Muslims are in an evil class of their own!

Um, yeah. Just because you spent 35 years believing something was true (that wasn't), doesn't mean you should just sacrifice the next 35 years (or 65 years or whatever you have left).

In truth, your new-found understanding, while exceptionally painful to deal with, will eventually make you ultimately happy.

What strikes me about you is that you have a real survivor's instinct. There is a reason why you decided to embrace your religious freedom. You could have just as easily accepted what you felt was false in the name of keeping everyone happy. But your heart and mind would not let you.

This means, to me anyway, that you have already made up your mind about which path to take. The issue now is how do you do it? How do you basically disown your family? All I can tell you is that once you actually make that move, you will feel 1000 times better and you'll feel like the weight of your world had been lifted off your shoulders.

I guess my point is that if your family would disown you and disavow you, what kind of real love for you do they really have? How much of their "love" is based on who you are, as opposed to what they want you to believe? And is that really worth sacrificing the rest of your life?

Every day, the answer becomes clearer and clearer, and eventually you'll either make a break, or have a breakdown. It would be a terrible shame and waste to breakdown because it doesn't have to be that way. Plus, imagine how much good you can do sharing your story with other women who feel the way you do?

Obviously, you still need time to come to terms with how you feel. You certainly do not need to rush, if it is too painful still. After all, this discovery just happened not too long ago. But the sooner you accept what you must do, the easier it will make each day until you actually do it.

Ahmed Deedat is a deceiver. He uses two tricks to show that Songs of Solomon 9:16 contains the name of mohamad, in his attempt to "prove" that the Torah mentions mohamad as written in surah 7:157.

1. The first one is that he lies to his co-religionists and tells them Songs of Solomon is part of the Torah. Anybody with a modicum of knowledge about Judaism would tell you Songs of Solomon isn't.

2. Second, Deedat takes a word "mahamadim" and lops off the "im" and then says "See? The verse talks about mohamad". I can use the same approach and prove that mohamad endorses eating pork: the word HAM is embedded in moHAMad. See? Pork is in the middle of mohamad!

TtFJ:I just read through the whole book of Songs of Solomon, looking for the name 'mahamadim' but could not find it anywhere.5:16 - 'His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.'Is that the wrong book?

Ah the proven LIAR Hirsi Ali, yup she lied to gain asylum and was caught in her lie and thrown out of Holland.......nice :)

"I should just move to a western country and ask for asylum."

oh great.....that is all we need, another ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT sponging off us, LOL.

That is the real irony......if the fake blogger wasn't such a Islam hater then it would be despised by the Islamaphobes here.....go figure

"It was pretty difficult being a practicing Muslim for the last 35 years"

It sure does show what a piss poor job you did (even jihad bob spencer could do better, but not much better) but take heart when you "become" a "christian" because it takes fcuk all effort so a FAKE MURTURD like you will fit in nicely

As you go on to suggest in reference to your family and society, a major factor is social pressure, the social network, that keeps it going.

Once the early Muslims set up a system in which

1) everyone had to teach their children to believe in Islam (Q 66:6),

2) those who abandoned the religion (apostates) were threatened with death,

3) those who criticized the religion or Muhammad (blasphemers) were threatened with death,

4) those who tried to change the religion (heretics) were threatened with death,

5) those non-Muslims who tried to persuade Muslims to abandon their religion (proselytizers) were threatened with death,

6) young Muslim men who kill in the defense of Islam are rewarded in this life and promised with more reward in the next,

and so on, we can see how such a system could get locked in place for a very long time.

To undo it, the Islamic world and the Islamic communities have to reject and oppose at least 1 through 6. There are only two ways to do this, namely radical reform of Islam so that it becomes no more than a personal faith (e.g., like a kind of modern moderate western Christianity), and/or mass public abandonment of Islam (i.e., public apostasy on a large scale).

I also blame the western countries' leadership for not forcing Islamic countries to comply with basic standards of human rights, such as allowing people to freely and openly leave Islam and criticize Islam (and so on). We need to pressure our leaders to press this issue.

I also blame the so-called moderate Muslims for their cowardice. They can quote 2:256, to support their claim that Islam allows apostasy and blasphemy, when they talk to western non-Muslim audiences, but they will change nothing until they work to implement this as real policy in the Islamic societies.

BTW, re my previous comment, I prefer that we non-Muslims promote apostasy from Islam, not reform of Islam. If some Muslims want to work to get rid of the apostasy and blasphemy penalties etc., good for them. But since I don't believe in Islam, I can't honestly advocate reform. I can only honestly advocate abandonment of Islam.

i live in muslin country and this is absolutely true (my country constitution offers freedom of religion but it makes it so difficult for muslin to change their religion and sometimes it takes years for the convert to change his religion on his personal ID but it's so easy if you want to join islam)BUT it's so much worse in countries like Saudi or Iran because the law says that

Liberated.Keep doing the good work. The Muslims who are cursing you here are doing a good job of showing how Islam can turn an ordinary human being into a shameless evil hateful and disgrace embarrassing sub-human. I just laugh at their comments because their god is being exposed and their helpless. I am looking forward for more posts. Keep well and stay safe.

A December 2010 survey conducted by the Pew Research Center found relatively widespread popular support for the death penalty as a punishment for leaving Islam in Egypt (84% of respondents in favor of death penalty), Jordan (86% in favor), Indonesia (30% in favor), Pakistan (76% favor) and Nigeria (51% in favor).

"The only solace in my otherwise meaningless existence is my blog, because I have so many friends and well wishers who love and support me in what I am doing."

On the contrary Shakila, your life right now is full of meaning. After 35 years, you have stumbled upon the Truth. It may be shocking, disconcerting, life shaking but far from meaningless.

I concider myself to be a born again agnostic and so do not come from a perspective of religion when I say that you are right in your condemnation of Islam, its fallacies, incongruities and even its evil nature. Muslims are NOT supposed to think about and theologise about their religion just believe it and act it out. Any true contemplative individual cannot buy into Islam in its totality without being a hypocrite of one sort or another.

Oh for crying out loud!This blogger if real is going through s crisis in her head. For the first time in her life she is able to make a decision. Mum dad and family have gone back to Pakistan. The blogger finds herself in a poxy shared flat, dead end job, 35 and single. The rest of the family has somehow moved on. Brothers and sisters are now parents and have families of their own. So now she looks around and thinks, how the hell did I end up here?If this blogger is Pakistani then her family would have tried to arrange a marriage. Somehow all that's fallen through. Whether she has been rejected or done the rejecting because of her desire of non Muslim men. It's the old wanna be like mike syndrome. First she is mad with her parents for her situation. Then she thinks that it must be islams fault since her parents are Muslim. In her head that kills two birds with one stone. I don't have to blame my parents for my situation and secondly I can be like mike. I can go date non Muslim men, I can go drinking, fornicate to my hearts desire in persuit for a non Muslim man and maybe a passport. But I can keep my parents sweet by living a lie and abusing their trust. Hyppocrites are human too. But she is not so sure in her head so she needs that reassurance and up steps Norway massacre linked lard boy " bobby spencer".The rest is history as they say!

You are obviously unaware that Breviek is linked to you darling musloids as well.

Oh yes, islamopithecus, had you actually taken the time to read his long winded manifesto rather than parrot what your fellow troglodytes spew, you would be aware that he had plans to ally himself with you scum because of your penchant for violence.

He's also "linked" to Thomas Jefferson, George Orwell, The Daily Mail and the unabomber among many others.

If you want to play that game, asshole, well then everytime one of your co-cultists goes jihadi and cuts off clits, bombs civillians, rapes kaffirs or generally acts like an islamopithecus we will declare you are "linked" to them. MMkkay?

You morons really need to "get educated" about which you speak rather than just parrot what your fellow troglodytes spew. You'll look and sound a little less stupid.

Kaffir from Haifa :-)that's one solution from your kaffir perspective! The other solution being worked on is the establishment of the khilafah from an non kaffir perspective! You will find apostates will naturally want to leave and muslims will naturally want to migrate to! Everybody is happy. Not long to go!

They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them;

I'd still prefer that first we kick all mohammedan nutjobs out from the "infidel" countries and simultaneously evacuate the apostates under a protective military escort. Then all you "true believers" can continue to happily kill each other until total extinction in your giant khilafah shithole. I don't care about your fate at all.

If your goal is safety, you have the two options you mentioned. If you truly want to choose life, and not just escape Islam, you do have a third option besides the ones you mentioned. There are believers in Jesus in every Muslim country. They have chosen allegiance to Jesus at great risk to their safety, because they want true life - the life that death cannot destroy. You don't have to tell your family about leaving Islam, but you can make contact with the underground church in your country and ask them to instruct you in the ways of Jesus. It depends on what you really want. I will pray for you.

Please don’t think about suicide. You have been created for a purpose and you are fulfilling it now. You have been rescued from Islam but your job now is to proclaim that. Almighty God wishes everyone to be saved but he didn’t promise a trouble free existence. Your troubles are severe but they are not unsustainable and you will receive help. Consider the trouble that Jesus suffered and he knew beforehand what was going to happen but he knew its purpose. Isaiah Chapter 53 says:

Without beauty, without majesty ( we saw him), no looks to attract our eyes; 3 a thing despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and familiar with suffering, a man to make people screen their faces; he was despised and we took no account of him. 4 And yet ours were the sufferings he bore, ours the sorrows he carried. But we, we thought of him as someone punished, struck by God and brought low. 5 Yet he was pierced through for our faults, crushed for our sins. On him lies a punishment that brings us peace, and through his wounds we are healed.

You have indeed been healed and your conversion from heresy is the proof. I encourage you to continue. Your writings fill us with hope even as we appreciate your difficulties. Read about Father Damien and how he suffered while serving the poor of Molokai and read “The Purpose Driven Life” by Rick Warren.

"You have been created for a purpose and you are fulfilling it now. You have been rescued from Islam but your job now is to proclaim that."

Her JOB ? Really ?What if she chooses a different purpose instead of what you assume she must choose ?

Her pursuit of freedom and happiness is what's important. Not utilitarian purposes assigned to her by other people.

What she seeks is understanding, simple empathy and perhaps some practical advice. Her life has changed radically and she will have to make immensely important decisions soon. Understandably, in similar circumstances most people usually don't offer heroic dedication to some holy cause.

Hey speaking of the truth, is it true that allah gave palestine to the Jews?? See what quran says:

surah 10:93 And certainly We lodged the children of Israel in a goodly abode and We provided them with good things; but they did not disagree until the knowledge had come to them; surely your Lord will judge between them on the resurrection day concerning that in which they disagreed.

surah 17:104 And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.

" I don't have to blame my parents for my situation and secondly I can be like mike. I can go date non Muslim men, I can go drinking, fornicate to my hearts desire in persuit for a non Muslim man and maybe a passport. But I can keep my parents sweet by living a lie and abusing their trust."

Why it surprises IstanbulChick that anj is a female (and why "Trying to follow Jesus" persists in treating anj as salvageable) reflects one small, but important, part of the problem in the anti-islam movement: the irrational sentimentalization of (Muslim) females.

This sentimentalization furthermore involves the ridiculous corollary that assumes that Muslim females are somehow less fanatical and dangerous than are Muslim males -- with the implication that the Great Brown Hope for saving Islam (or, rather, saving Us from Islam) lies in this mass potential of Female Victims of Islam who are just waiting for the day they would rise up and revolt against all the Muslim men (with our massive help, of course; Third World peoples always need our Western help -- and considerable heaps of it to the tune of trillions of $$$ -- for all their problems).

Such fantasizing, if put into practice broadly as policy by Western governments (once, that is, they begin incipiently waking up from their pro-Islamic stupor to begin to do concrete pragmatic things about the problem) would more likely than not have disastrous effects on our safety; mainly because it's all built on WT (Wishful Thinking) coupled with the classic Western error of thinking EIWMBLU -- that Everybody In The World Must Be Like Us.

No: far more useful for us and for our safety is to ruthlessly disabuse ourselves of all sentimentality concerning all Muslims, and err on the side of considering them to be our implacable enemy. I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather worry about the safety of our own first, rather than spend all this time, energy, money and ideation thinking of ways to save Muslims from themselves.

Au contraire I am not surprised to find out anj is a female mohammadan. I was just unware of its gender.

I constantly warn people to never, ever feel sorry for the bagheaded bints even if they are buried up to their necks and having stones lobbed at them because those creatures would gleefully be lobbing stones if it was another bagheaded bint buried up to it's neck.

I know, from experience, that mohammadan females are anything but female. They are vacuous and vicious as their male co-cultists. They are enablers of their own dire circumstances and will not hesitate to screech like rhesus monkeys on crack to defend those circumstances. Some of them will even gladly kill to prove how right they believe they are.

The cult of islam destroys any vestiges of femininity and the alleged victims are anything but.

"Hesperado, one could say that for 35 yrs Shakila too, appeared non-salvageable."

You are thinking in terms of an individual, on a micro level. Unfortunately, this is a global, civilizational problem, on a macro level; and as such, there will most likely be difficult, terrible, tragic choices involving collateral damage.

After all, to win WW2 we had to kill millions of women and children, in the fire-bombings of Germany and Japan, in addition to the A-bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And what Muslims portend in the decades ahead this century will be far worse, far broader in sweep, far deadlier and more horrific, than anything the Axis Powers did. And we better be prepared. Unless you want to help make things messier, costlier and bloodier than they need to be -- if so, be my guest. But not on my dime, or on the dime of my loved ones and my fellow citizens.

The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and his Household and grant them peace) has said, "If any of you feels something in his stomach such that it is unclear to him, whether something has come out or not, then he should certainly not leave the mosque, unless he hears a sound or smells an odour."

Jesus followerseriously fella! Have you got nothing better to do?Yes it's Friday, yes I've just left Friday prayers! Got a million things to be getting on with. So forgive me if don't stay and play!Look up in the bible, whenever prophets prayed they prostrated. Get a grip!

Except that the God of the Bible doesn't reject anybody's prayer for farting :D

BTW did you know allah has banned farting in islamic paradise? See what sahih muslim 39:6798 says:Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:

I heard Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) as saying that the inmates of Paradise would eat and drink but would neither spit, nor pass water, nor void excrement, nor suffer catarrh.

It was said: Then, what would happen with food? Thereupon he said: They would belch and sweat (and it would be over with their food), and their sweat would be that of musk and they would glorify and praise Allah as easily as you breathe.

HespI've read some of you blogs here and elsewhere. Underneath all the PC language, it's the same old BS! Another White boy with a manifesto!How do you like your cell? Padded or plain?Secondly according to your criterion, I am NOT salvagable!

GreenforestI got no beef with polytheists! If that's your choice in belief then good for you. I hope it gives you the feeling of spirituality you desire! I may not agree with you but I would fight tooth and nail for your right to do that!

angie tsk tsk, again you don't know that allah says to slay idolaters! surah 9:5 says Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush...

Thanks for replying. I am pleased to hear you have no problem with polytheists per se. I'm not a polytheist myself; I am an atheist. I support everyone's freedom of religion within the bounds of the law (i.e., laws such as those currently within most western countries), and the separation of religion and state.

I brought up the question in the previous thread because some of the commenters seemed to be assuming that it was self-evident that polytheism per se was evil or wrong. I don't see anything wrong with polytheism per se. There are strong condemnations of it in the Bible and Quran, yet no clear rationale as to how it is wrong, harmful, evil, etc., apart from the fact that God doesn't like it and punishes people for it.

In general, I don't think there is anything significantly wrong with monotheism, polytheism, any other theism, deism, atheism, agnosticism, etc., per se. It all depends on the set of beliefs that the individual holds, and the particular ideology in question--hence my problem, for example, with Islam. I do object to people believing in something for which there is no evidence, but that is another matter.

Anyways, if you are a Muslim, and you are okay with polytheism, it seems you have a modern tolerant interpretation. If so, why are you being so hostile toward Liberated/Shakila?

"I got no beef with polytheists! If that's your choice in belief then good for you. I hope it gives you the feeling of spirituality you desire! I may not agree with you but I would fight tooth and nail for your right to do that!"

Strange that anj should say this when it is considered Shirk in Islam and Allah hates the mushrikun!

“Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases, and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.”(Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)

“Do not associate aught with Allah; most surely polytheism is a grievous inequity.” (Surah Luqmān 31:13).

Narrated Anas ibn Malik:The Prophet said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah, eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. Sunan of Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 2635:

BTW anj, I told my rabbi you called him illiterate. He takes it as a compliment because according to surah 7:157, allah's messenger was also illiterate. Unlike mohamad though, rabbi Cohen's name is all over the Torah, just like surah 7:157 says.

Hey do you think surah 7:157 was referring to rabbi Cohen? It says: Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they will find mentioned in the Torah... I mean, rabbi Cohen's name is found in the Torah and, now you say he is illiterate. What do you think?

"Dude, you are the one who made an observation based on an individual, i.e. anj:"

My observation was an observation that you guys were focused on the micro individual level in your response to anj. In order to make my observation, I had to advert to anj as the example.

The macro civilizational level involves individuals -- masses of them, who, in times of turmoil caused by maniac ideologies, get caught up in the churning gears of tragic devolutions in which good societies, through no fault of their own, have to defend themselves. That's History 101, Life 101, Tragedy 101, Mystery 101 -- courses which I suggest you take, or re-take.

These unfortunate truths reflect processes that have been going on for millennia, and there are no signs that the new maniacs on the horizon (Muslims) are magically going to follow the advice of a Miss Universe contestant whose wish is for "World Peace and Harmony". Indeed, the preponderance of the signs (other than Ali Sina's wild guesstimates based on thin air and flimsy anecdotal evidence, along with the ungrounded sentimentalism of certain anti-jihadists, plus the spasmodic ethical recoil of others like matt hugh who while ignoring the mountain of grotesque atrocities Muslims are actually doing, without a shred of evidence fret and wring their hands at what the white West might do) -- indicate screamngly the worst case scenario.

Congratulations, you passed Elementary Reading Comprehension 101. Now you'll be able to understand the nice gentlemen who wish to detain you in an interrogation room while a lesbian with rubber globes cavity-searches you, in preparation for your embarkation on a ship back to Hellole #47 of the Dar-al-Islam.

Now, if only most of my fellow Westerners would themselves pass Elementary Reading Comprehension 101. we could get this ball rolling.

Islam is an inherently anti-civilizational mass psychosis.Some rare intellectually active individuals overcome the psychological/physical terror and free their minds from this lunacy, but this fact does not indicate that islam itself is reformable and can be made compatible with civilization.It's as simple as that. Unfortunate perhaps, but true.There's no other choice for the civilized people, but to isolate, unequivocally reject and oppose Islam. I think we should start with a sort of an anti-islamic "Cold War", but if agressive mohammedanism persists being an existential threat to us "infidels", then it should be dealt with, using unrestrained and overwhelming military force.

When to the mulla's question "Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg?", there's a resounding and enthusiastic "ja !" heard every day in mosques worldwide for 14 centuries, then what the hell are we "infidels" supposed to do ? Start some delusional "peace process" ?

When to the mulla's question "Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg?", there's a resounding and enthusiastic "ja !" heard every day in mosques worldwide for 14 centuries, then what the hell are we "infidels" supposed to do ? Start some delusional "peace process" ?

To which I would posit the sarcastic answer: We're supposed to place our hope in the "millions of Muslims" about whom Ali Sina is apodictically certain will save Muslims, and us, from Islam; and no doubt Spencer agrees with him. Indeed, that is likely one major reason why he is promoting this blog: it is supposed to open a pedagogical window onto that fantasy-based possibility as a -- or the only real -- viable way for the West to handle the problem of Islam.

Istanbul chick! "asshole, nut job, disgusting creature, musliod, Troglodyte etc etc" YOUR insults are like water water off a ducks back! But it does highlight your spencerianism. The ability to reel off insults when you have nothing intelligent to say! Stay stupid!

You have such a fascination with Robert Spencer. Boy crushes are so unbecoming you racist little twerp.

Spencer is much more diplomatic and kind than I am.

I'd much rather "reel off" truthful and undiplomatic observations of your behaviours than be a consummate liar for mo's cult of death!

Speaking of staying stupid, oh master of ignorance, the "redneck" posing as a lesbian was actually one of YOUR dhimmi leftarded communist whores. That "redneck" thought he was doing his mohammadan masters a favour.

You knuckle draggers need to make up your minds: are rednecks the folks who stand in defiance of your lies, racism and violence or are they your little dhimmi lapdogs?

I never understood any Muslim. They say something to your face, they turn around and do something totally different. Their motto is to be deceitful to us, little do they realise the deceitfulness has been passed between them from generations born 1400 hundred years back and it has become now part of their genetic make up - unless they can override it by leaving the cult behind in the dust.

Shakila - I know you don't like Islam. We expose Islam and the behaviour of the Muslims like anj or skouti or screwed etc. To be honest, they bring the worst out of people. If someone had told me that I will behave like one of them three years back, insulting and curse other people, I would have lost a large bet now.

You told us you love your family who are Muslims. Doesn't it hurt the way we defend ourselves by using derogatory language about Muslims? It's a real shame we need to resort to that instead of having a civilised mannered debate.

To the commenters above who are engaging in name-calling, insults, etc.: You get out of a conversation what you put into it. These insults and name-calling don't advance anyone's cause here, unless the cause is to mess the threads and make them unreadable.

Let's keep in mind that one can choose to put nothing into a conversation if one gets (or reasonably expects to get) nothing out of it.

If you're in a conversation, you can hold up your end of the bargain by refraining from insults and name-calling, etc. If you do that, and your interlocutor keeps insulting and name-calling etc., this will be obvious to the readers, they will judge who is the good one versus the bad one, and at that point you can freely disengage if there is nothing substantive remaining to address. Most fair-minded readers will see that the person engaging in the insults has lost (no matter how much the insulter may think himself or herself the winner). Just hold your own, don't resort to obviously wrong tactics like name-calling etc. If your interlocutor keeps insulting and adds nothing of substance, those are reasonable grounds for disengaging. Those are also reasonable grounds for the site moderator to ban the repeat-offender, but that doesn't seem to be happening here, so we have to keep that in mind.

I engaged anj because anj gave a sensible response to my question. As much as people may differ on issues, it's important that they talk and exchange ideas if that's possible. But my request goes as much to anj as anyone else: Let's keep this clean.

p.s., I do agree with you on skouti and Kai. Not much point in engaging with them, since they have advocated violence, one of them (Kai) has made threats, the other has endorsed the Holocaust, and so on. (One could of course try to get them to clarify their statements in some cases, for educational and possibly legal purposes). They need psychological or psychiatric help that is far beyond what anyone could provide for them here; and in Kai's case the police need to be contacted if they haven't been already.

She is all over the threads on loonwatch calling apostates murtads and munafiqs and absolutely slamming, attacking and belittling any mohammadan she deems as not sufficiently mohammadan enough, the wrong sect and too friendly with the "neo-cons" and "islamophobes." In other words, she would kill the reformers like Jasser if she could get away with it.

She's as unstable as the other two. She simply puts on a slicker facade. She came here with the same intentions as scabby and abdulla: to abuse an apostate.

You should spend some time perusing loonwatch and looking for her posts to see for yourself what she's all about. She's intelligent enough to know that islam is a racist, supremacist sham. She doesn't care.

So, no, I will not "play nice" with her. She's not nice. She has no intention of "dialogue" and I do not "dialogue" with supremacists.

Not sure. It would seem telling from the snippet that CGW caught. However, it could be a Freudian slip.

On the other hand, he/she/it was full of venom over an article about a female muslim reformer. Which could indicate the typical musloid male misogyny OR the typical musloid female catiness.

In the end the fact that she has not come right out and threatened Shakila makes me lean toward her being female. The female musloids are just as nasty as their male counterparts but they hide their racism and aggression better.

"First she is mad with her parents for her situation. Then she thinks that it must be islams fault since her parents are Muslim. In her head that kills two birds with one stone. I don't have to blame my parents for my situation and secondly I can be like mike. I can go date non Muslim men, I can go... "

If this is true about anj, then why not just expose all that instead of using insult? No need to play nice, just observe some decorum. If anj is not producing anything further of educational or legal value, and seems to be beyond reach, then I would suggest disengage.

They abuse, in real life, anyone within their reach. I've seen it first hand. Been on the receiving end of it from her male co-cultists many times.

She is no different than a good ol' boy from the kkk as far as I'm concerned and I will abuse her as she deserves.

Ignoring bad people does not make them go away,stop or tip their hands. I take it you've not spent much time around non-Westernized mohammadans. They can be "exposed red handed" and STILL deny any wrong doing.

Being polite with racists (and they are racist even amongst themselves) serves no purpose. To you perhaps, but not to me.

You can expose and judge them without resorting to insults, name-calling, etc. I'm well aware of how some Muslims can be exposed and then deny. If you have the record of the exposure, that's the evidence; spicing it up with insults etc., doesn't help.

The way I look at it, what we are doing by publishing articles and posting comments on the internet is primarily trying to educate non-Muslim westerners about the problems with Islam. Exposing some Muslims who support sharia and jihad, to that end, is useful. Adding a bunch of insults doesn't help. In this highly politicized war of public opinion in the west about Islam and Muslims, we need to exercise some discipline in how we conduct ourselves, so that we do not hand rhetorical ammunition to our opponents, who feed on this sort of thing.

I disagree with both Greenforest and Istanbul/Trying. We shouldn't be engaging with Muslims in any kind of communication whatsoever. We should be

1) educating our fellow non-Muslims about Islam

which involves, among other things

2) pushing the envelope for treating all Muslims, as the law enforcement/military saying goes, with extreme prejudice.

I used to think that a minimal use could be made from using faux engagements with Muslims as a pedagogical spectacle, in order to help with #1. I'm increasingly tiring of even that use. We really have to graduate to the next level -- which finds no use for any type of communication with Muslims. Did the priests in The Exorcist spend time "dialoguing" with Linda Blair, or did they bother to waste time insulting her? No. They just went about the grim business of trying to expel her demons. Similarly, we have military defense concerns with Muslims. Nothing else matters.

Those here who take perverse fun in playing juvenile games with the Muslims are just perpetuating staying at a level that is no longer useful. People are being murdered, mass-murdered, burned, disfigured, tortured -- all over the world; and more horrific plots are being planned as we speak. This isn't some kind of sophomoric party game.

why does education have to be boring? When I provide quranic evidence about ridiculous aspects of islam, not only does it raise readers' awareness of the fallacy of islam but it gives them a good laugh too! (example, when I used islamic sources to show that allah rejects a muslim's prayer if s/he farts while at it.)

It is the sort of rhetoric that you engage in (i.e., treating Muslims "with extreme prejudice"; comparing dealing with Islam to exorcising demons, etc.) that interferes with the task of educating our fellow non-Muslims. It is extremely off-putting for the ordinary western non-Muslim to read this sort of feverish rhetoric.

In an earlier comment you make a claim about the whole premise of this blog. You reject that premise. What then are you doing at this blog, if you don't think this is a worthwhile project? Either you think it's worthwhile to support apostates, or you don't.

@ greenforest-Islamic view of monotheism. Read surah al ikhlas. It's about 4 lines in the 30th chapter.Polytheism in islam is a big no no! Associating parters with god is considered a sin. Personally I couldn't care less what people believe. Your diety unto you and my diety unto me. 2. I have no beef with the blogger personally. She doesn't pay my bills so to speak. I have a beef with her odious views and conclusions. The bloggers assertions that she owns the absolute truth! It's a joke.

@IC- keep hating! You amuse me full stop! Say hi to abdullah gul!

@Jesus believer- you the man!

@hesperado- let me know where you live so I can make sure nobody I know is anywhere near you! When you blow a gasket, it is not going to be pretty. Oh and you will blow that gasket, trust me!

Thanks anj; I do know the fundamental asserted premise of Islamic monotheism and have read the Quran, so I'm not sure why you cite this. (Sura Al-'Ikhlas is chapter 112, not 30).

You write: "Personally I couldn't care less what people believe. Your diety unto you and my diety unto me."

Your statements, including your latter sentence which I've quoted (which echoes sura 109), suggests you don't have a problem with polytheism. Yet you also note that Allah in the Quran has a problem with polytheism, that it is a big no no. Why? Why does Islamic ideology claim that polytheism is a big no no? Why is it punished with hell-fire? What's so bad about it? Why does Allah forbid it?

"I have no beef with the blogger personally. She doesn't pay my bills so to speak.I have a beef with her odious views and conclusions. The bloggers assertions that she owns the absolute truth! It's a joke."

Odious views and conclusions...such as?

Liberated did not claim that she had the absolute truth. As I understand it, she has arrived at the view that Islam is false and immoral (or evil).

You have no problem with polytheists per se. Yet shouldn't a wise and sensible polytheist have at least some problem with a doctrine that condemns him or her to hell-fire because he or she is a polytheist? And shouldn't such a polytheist be allowed to raise objections in public about such a doctrine? Shouldn't a polytheist rightly conclude that a doctrine that asserts that a person will be punished with hell-fire (among other things), for mere polytheism, is an evil doctrine?

And if it's okay for a polytheist to conclude, and claim publicly, that the doctrine of hell-fire is evil, what's wrong with an apostate raising, publicly, essentially the same objection?

As for metaphors of demon possession, or vermin infestation, etc. being off-putting, it's not such a simple situation.

First, it depends upon the way it's articulated. If someone expresses it in brute, unsophisticated terms, it will tend to be far more off-putting than if it's done intelligently, with plenty of nuances for the intelligent reader to distinguish it from Joseph Goebbels (not that that exercise should be necessary, given that Muslims are screamingly, grotesquely, ghoulishly off the charts in their violent hateful seditious behavior all over the world for years, decades, centuries for crying out loud, therefore inviting such metaphors; while Jews were, and always have been, relatively peaceful and productive members of any society they are in).

Then there's the variegated composition of the readership. Some are morons sufficiently infected with the PC MC virus to be off-put by anything that remotely hints at being within the general vicinity of the ballpark of anything vaguely resembling turning one's nose at Muslims. Some are slightly more intelligent, but still have an irrational hair-trigger (like our friend here "hugh watt") making preposterous equivalencies between my prescriptions and Nazi genocide.

Bottom line: The only reason I expend any time at all in anti-Islamic pedagogy is because I have hope for the West; but if there exists only a pitiful measly handful of intelligent readers with powers of elementary discernment existing throughout the entire West whose numbers are effectively insignificant, then the West is not worth saving.

As for why I'm here at a blog whose raison d'être seems to conflict with my prescriptions for the problem of Islam: as long as a forum is non- or anti-Islamic, then surely it's worth getting involved to contribute alternative points of view. Unless you guys want to enforce a circle-jerking echo chamber; just let me know, with Spencer's and Shakila's imprimatur, and I'll be gone. But I trust that they, and many of y'all, have sufficient residues of the virtues of your civilization to understand the value of healthy disagreement in the context of an ongoing discussion of important sociopolitical problems.

Why I have to articulate all of the above, however, wearies; it's like being stuck in senior year of high school or freshman year at college for fucking years, while one is itching to dig into graduate school for some real work.

Greenforest In the abrahamic religions, god asks you to look around and ponder, ponder and ponder some more. How much are you in control, what is your contribution. When you realise nothing. So whom/what is? Is the next question. You finally realise that there is only one, looking at the handiwork.So why should you give thanks to anything but the one. That is why in general terms it is considered a sin!

Let's call a spade a spade! Do you know the blogger? Ever met her? Do you know the workings of a south Asian family? Noyou are here ONLY because she writes stuff you agree with, as are all the rest. So with that fixed agenda you reinforce her/your opinions. The blogger says she practiced and now left the religion, straight away you place her on a pedastal. You assume that it gives credance to your opinion. I personally think it's a whole load of rubbish! I do not believe for a second she was a practicing muslim. She may have been bought up in a "Muslim" home. As an insider a do not recognize the picture she is painting now. I dare the blogger to respond!!!!!!

Why would a polytheist have a problem? It's like me saying I have a problem with "Jesus follower".I'm condemned to hell because I do not accept Jesus as my saviour. I couldn't give a monkeys! I'm going to live my life to my beliefs period. So for you say a polytheist would have a problem with abrahamic faiths Is a bit far fetched. The polytheist would carry on regardless because the faiths have no imact in his/her life.

As an athiest! What are you doing killing time like this? Have you not got people to meet places to see? Sensations to experience? According to your belief there are no re-runs before you turn to worm food!

Greenforest In the abrahamic religions, god asks you to look around and ponder, ponder and ponder some more. How much are you in control, what is your contribution. When you realise nothing. So whom/what is? Is the next question. You finally realise that there is only one, looking at the handiwork.So why should you give thanks to anything but the one. That is why in general terms it is considered a sin!

Let's call a spade a spade! Do you know the blogger? Ever met her? Do you know the workings of a south Asian family? Noyou are here ONLY because she writes stuff you agree with, as are all the rest. So with that fixed agenda you reinforce her/your opinions. The blogger says she practiced and now left the religion, straight away you place her on a pedastal. You assume that it gives credance to your opinion. I personally think it's a whole load of rubbish! I do not believe for a second she was a practicing muslim. She may have been bought up in a "Muslim" home. As an insider a do not recognize the picture she is painting now. I dare the blogger to respond!!!!!!

Why would a polytheist have a problem? It's like me saying I have a problem with "Jesus follower".I'm condemned to hell because I do not accept Jesus as my saviour. I couldn't give a monkeys! I'm going to live my life to my beliefs period. So for you say a polytheist would have a problem with abrahamic faiths Is a bit far fetched. The polytheist would carry on regardless because the faiths have no imact in his/her life.

As an athiest! What are you doing killing time like this? Have you not got people to meet places to see? Sensations to experience? According to your belief there are no re-runs before you turn to worm food!

Greenforest In the abrahamic religions, god asks you to look around and ponder, ponder and ponder some more. How much are you in control, what is your contribution. When you realise nothing. So whom/what is? Is the next question. You finally realise that there is only one, looking at the handiwork.So why should you give thanks to anything but the one. That is why in general terms it is considered a sin!

Let's call a spade a spade! Do you know the blogger? Ever met her? Do you know the workings of a south Asian family? Noyou are here ONLY because she writes stuff you agree with, as are all the rest. So with that fixed agenda you reinforce her/your opinions. The blogger says she practiced and now left the religion, straight away you place her on a pedastal. You assume that it gives credance to your opinion. I personally think it's a whole load of rubbish! I do not believe for a second she was a practicing muslim. She may have been bought up in a "Muslim" home. As an insider a do not recognize the picture she is painting now. I dare the blogger to respond!!!!!!

Why would a polytheist have a problem? It's like me saying I have a problem with "Jesus follower".I'm condemned to hell because I do not accept Jesus as my saviour. I couldn't give a monkeys! I'm going to live my life to my beliefs period. So for you say a polytheist would have a problem with abrahamic faiths Is a bit far fetched. The polytheist would carry on regardless because the faiths have no imact in his/her life.

As an athiest! What are you doing killing time like this? Have you not got people to meet places to see? Sensations to experience? According to your belief there are no re-runs before you turn to worm food!

Unfortunately, you seem to be reacting with an outburst of hostility, whereas I only posed a few straightforward questions and issues which could be dealt with in an easy, routine manner.

1. Giving thanks. Don't polytheists do that too? You can't just presume that you are right and they are wrong. (Well, you can, but is that wise, is it warranted?) Even atheists give thanks; e.g., they thank other people for their known accomplishments. And all the atheists I know have an appreciation for the wonders of nature and so on; they just don't attribute this to the workings of a deity as such. Yet there is no evidence to support the claims that God exists or that there are multiple gods, so no warrants for thanking entity(ies) whose existence is not yet established.

2. I haven't met Liberated personally, but there is now sufficient evidence for me to believe with sufficient confidence that she is indeed an apostate of Islam and is giving her sincere opinions on Islam and her current perspective.

3. "you are here ONLY because she writes stuff you agree with, as are all the rest." No, for one thing, I don't agree with everything Liberated says. I think she is correct and knows what she is talking about on Islam's apostasy policies, though. Anyways, there are lots of sites I read that I disagree with; and there are lots of sites I don't read that I do agree with. It is more or less a historical accident of reading Robert's site that I am here, plus my interest in issues of freedom of expression and freedom of conscience, which remain a problem in Islamic societies and communities, that has led me here. I also have corresponded with an apostate from Asia intermittently for the past 5 years. I am interested int he plight of apostates, which immediately captured my concern, when I first learned of it, several years ago.

4. "The blogger says she practiced and now left the religion, straight away you place her on a pedastal. You assume that it gives credance to your opinion."

Public apostates are threatened with death, or other persecution and punishment, in Islamic societies, either officially or unofficially via vigilantes. The threat of punishment or death is even worse for those apostates who criticize Islam and Muhammad. The fact that Liberated has attracted this attention is due to (a) Islamic attitudes and policies toward apostates--without which there would be no problem with apostasy from Islam in the first place, (b) the fact that she contacted Ali Sina and Robert Spencer, who are popular figures who are fighting for the freedom of apostates and Islam critics; and (c) the fact that Liberated is posting these articles for others to read and thuis learn about the plight of apostates. If this leads to western governments putting political pressure on Islamic countries to live up to their U.N. obligations and ensure freedom and safety for apostates and Islam critics, then that is a good thing.

5. "I'm condemned to hell because I do not accept Jesus as my saviour. I couldn't give a monkeys! I'm going to live my life to my beliefs period. So for you say a polytheist would have a problem with abrahamic faiths Is a bit far fetched. The polytheist would carry on regardless because the faiths have no imact in his/her life."

Unfortunately, beliefs often have consequences, especially in the context of an ideology that requires human intervention in earthly problems. Belief in hell-fire punishment is the belief that the person loses their soul or is tortured and burned, etc., in the afterlife. In Islamic theology, there is the view that the threat of hell-fire is so serious that disbelief is worse than killing (i.e., because in this view you can be killed but your soul lives on and is rewarded with paradise if you are a believer, but the disbeliever's soul is tortured, burned and destroyed in hell-fires). That's because while the earthly life is finite, the afterlife is supposedly much better; this world is merely a test of the afterlife, as the Quran implies. Therefore, Muslims are supposed to be concerned about saving their own souls and those of others. Well, how do you do that if your society is rife with disbelievers, blasphemy, unbelief, public apostates who are encouraging apostasy, heresy, and materialism and alternative religions everywhere being practiced freely? There is no guarantee, to say the least. Yet the Muslim authorities, and Muslims, are charged with the responsibility of protecting the religion of Islam, to fulfill a religious duty and to protect the Muslim families and community from destruction. To protect the souls of Muslims, and to reach out to save the souls of the non-Muslims (through da'wa), Islamic leaders had to impose the rules of Islam as laid out in the Hadith, namely, by punishing the blasphemers and apostates (who by their expressions tempt and endanger the souls of the Muslims), whilst clearing an unimpeded path for da'wa. It becomes a tremendously important thing to save souls, and this becomes even more important than saving (earthly) lives. Hence, even today, all Islamic countries control expression about Islam to some extent; even "secular" Turkey has a form of this restriction on expressions criticizing the religion; criticism of Islam is punished severely in most Islamic countries.

The belief about the hell-fire, End Times, saving souls, etc., was an important motivation for jihad warfare against the non-Muslims including polytheists, apostates, and people of the Book, by Muhammad and the early Caliphs. Clearly, Muhammad (and the Quran) had moved past the sentiment suggested in Sura 109, by the later Medinan stage and after, where it was no longer okay to be a polytheist. Those who believe in afterlife/ end-times hell-fire and the implications of it often have trouble leaving people alone in this life, once they get power and therefore responsibility. Muslims have to command the right and forbid the wrong, and struggle against corruption, as a duty.

6. "As an athiest! What are you doing killing time like this? Have you not got people to meet places to see? Sensations to experience? According to your belief there are no re-runs before you turn to worm food!"

I do have other things to do and time allocation is an important matter, yes, but I view this issue (freedom for apostates and critics of Islam) as an important one, so I'm here to discuss this issue with others who are willing to engage in intelligent discussion about it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sensations to experience"; I could briefly give you a description of my moral, aesthetic, and scientific views, if you are interested, but you haven't asked.

If you mean that I have limited time and only this life, as far as I know, then you are correct. I would also suggest that you are in the same boat; all the scientific evidence indicates that consciousness, the mind, the self, etc., ends at death.

However, the self, consciousness etc., does not become worm meal, nor can it, since consciousness, the mind itself, is not matter. It depends for its activity on a complex and healthily functioning brain, but it is not the brain, and so it would be a confusion to say that "you" or "I" become worm meal.

Greenforest! Chill out fella. No hostility here, just frustration at typing on an I phone with bananna fingers. I apologise if it came across that way! 1. I have no idea if they give thanks or not? Whom would they give thanks to? Why and what for? Existance of something doesn't rely on it being presented in a test tube. 2.You hit the nail on the head "HER perspective" not the Islamic perspective. Glad we at least agree on that! 3. Really? What do you disagee on? Is she correct on the apostate issue? What are modern contemporary scholars of islam saying about apostacy??

Greenforest4. If that's your cause then good for you! As I said contemporary issues are being delt with albeit slowly.5. I think you are moving into what constiutes free speech. Old Islamic societies have objectives and the rights of the many in circumstances trump the rights of the individual. 6. The was no hidden question in there. It was a sat night and whilst watching the box and replying to you I thought "why is this guy not out and about" that's all!

I'll focus on 2-5 inclusive for brevity and to keep things on topic. (I'll come back to 1 if you want me to address that).2. It is not only Liberated's perspective; the opinion polls (e.g., by PEW) show that there is widespread support for the death penalty for apostasy in many Islamic countries and even western countries (e.g., in the U.K., see this). Numerous Islamic countries have the death penalty for apostasy, and many others have some kind of punishment for apostasy. Besides, the major schools of jurisprudence, and the Hadith, all call for the death penalty for the adult male public apostate; and either call for death or imprisonment of the adult female apostate. Moreover there are vigilantes. I hope you are not denying any of this.3. Many modern scholars in the west will dispute this, but the issue is what the Muslim scholars in the Muslim countries have to say about this; after all they are the ones influencing policy.4. Do you agree that the west should pressure the Islamic countries to abolish apostasy penalties?5. Are you suggesting, in your response to what I said for this point, that you think there should be some restrictions on what people say or express about Islam and Muhammad in public? If so, what restrictions?(Note also that the blasphemy issue is tied up with the apostasy issue when we are talking about a Muslim or former Muslim making criticisms of Islam and Muhammad).

"It is not only Liberated's perspective; the opinion polls (e.g., by PEW) show that there is widespread support for the death penalty for apostasy in many Islamic countries and even western countries (e.g., in the U.K., see this). Numerous Islamic countries have the death penalty for apostasy, and many others have some kind of punishment for apostasy. Besides, the major schools of jurisprudence, and the Hadith, all call for the death penalty for the adult male public apostate; and either call for death or imprisonment of the adult female apostate. Moreover there are vigilantes."

To which I would add that, moreover, we have the words of Muhammad himself, as reported by Ikrima, recorded by the most authoritative hadith collector in all Islam, Bukhari, that:

..according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'

Not sure why you think that. I would have thought that science has little evidence either way. In fact if one had to say which way the preponderance of evidence goes, I'd say it would be toward some sort of continued existence at least for a time after the death of the body.

Greenforest, you said, "However, the self, consciousness etc., does not become worm meal, nor can it, since consciousness, the mind itself, is not matter. It depends for its activity on a complex and healthily functioning brain, but it is not the brain, and so it would be a confusion to say that "you" or "I" become worm meal."

You say consciousness depends for its "activity" on a living brain. Do you also say that it depends for its existence on a brain?

@greenforest 2. No major dusagreements on that point. However it must be aknowledged that there is a growing list of academics and scholars who are rejecting the traditionalist view. As for vigilantes then that is a no no across the board!3. You will find that more and more people are looking at rulings from scholars who are based in the west because of their similar understandings and experience. 4. I'm saying there must be a discussion about what people say and do! Is a holocaust joke acceptable? The cross in a recepticle of urine? Was that art? Silly pictures of the prophet muhammed(pbuh)??

2. Yes, a growing list of academics in the west. But that's mostly toward Islam apologetics. It doesn't seem to me that apostates are any safer today than 10 years ago.3. I don't see Islamic countries working to improve things for apostates or toward opening up for free debate and criticism of Islam and Muhammad.4. Do you think the Muhammad cartoons, or the other things you mentioned, should be illegal? If so, what should be the penalty? If not, what should be the response? I think they should be legally acceptable, since offense per se is not enough grounds for judging the expressions illegal. (Slander, libel, threats, harassment, would be examples of illegal expressions, but not merely offensive things).

Note for comparison: Many people find the Quran and Bible not only offensive but potentially quite dangerous, since they contain orders to kill people on the basis of expressed religious beliefs, among other things. Our current society in the west overall is quite tolerant and flexible in what it accepts, and even seems to give extra tolerance for religious texts. If we punish cartoonists who lampoon religion, should we also punish those who distribute religious texts that command the killing of those who lampoon religion?

2. Thanks for aknowledging a growing list. However I feel you do the "apologetic" scholars a disservice! Are they less qualified than any of scholars from centuries ago???As for the safety of apostates in the last decade has not been a priority I must admit. I mean things like food, water, shelter, energy needs have been a priority for most countries. Keeping their mineral and energy wealth from the mean green killing machine! 4. I just said there should be an open and honest discussion. Try and narrow the grey areas!

Thank you for sharing your monumental struggle. I worked under a supervisor for many years who made the enormous decision to forsake Islam after she left her country and was exposed to many other ways of viewing the world. This was many years ago, but I see that she is still working through the emotional ramifications inside herself and with other family members who have remained devout. At first I was fearful to work with her, since I'm a practicing Jew, (we were both working in a Catholic Agency), but we ended up developing such a deep and lasting love and respect for each other based on universal values of the heart. She came to understand that it was going to be impossible for me to compromise on what I felt was the truth of what was best for a client (against bureaucratic or administrative demands); and I came to understand the courageous and powerful position between opposing forces she had to maintain. I don't think I've ever met a more dedicated, good and loving woman. She taught me how to show up no matter what to fight to nurture what matters most. We both were able to share our strong attachment to One G-d, which she had divested of it's religious obligations and ideologies, and carried with her as a rock of life-affirming moral ground and was the Focal Poing for her respect of the dignity of every living being, and her work to alleviate suffering. (We're Social Workers.)I'm convinced that these outstanding qualities were sown in the context of her Muslim upbringing, and then allowed to blossom and flourish when placed in a pluralistic society. I bless you (and me and all of us) that you will be able to shed the dark, dangerous ideas that have entered you, and hold on to those relationships and values that have contributed to your growth into the strong, sensitive, and truth seeking woman you have become. I bless you (and me and all of us) with the clarity to cling to, and to chase after Life and Goodness and Dignity and True Truth. I wish for you that these fires burn in you and keep you warm, and that these waters drench your thirst, and that you never, ever feel like you're alone in your journey. I pray for the day when we will embrace each other with only our loving, feeling, unified hearts and minds, freed from the fear and crazy power contortions of humanitiy's long and bitter exile from wholeness.

4. Do I think that people who draw pictures, or put a cross in a urine recepticle in the name of art or make holocaust jokes be made criminals? No.But I do think that's it's crass and tasteless and offensive to large sections of society? Yes. would I take part in that crap? No.For the people that do, then I would question whether they are really advocates of freedom or do they have another agenda! Why would you do something where nothing good is going to come from it???

From existing "hate speech laws" in the West (in EU, Canada, etc.) it is unclear what constitutes as "threats" or "harassment".I think all these laws must be repealed, or at least fundamentally revised to include well-defined, precise and objective criteria.

There's no such thing as "a right not to be offended" in a pluralistic society. If we are to protect individual rights, there's not much room for "discussion about what people say and do" in this context. Why some people who have "religious beliefs" think that their "feelings" must be given some kind of special protection ?

If someone's "deeply and sincerely held religious beliefs/feelings" are "offended", this is not a justification for restricting freedom of speech. Blasphemy is a victimless "crime" and is not an infringement of individual rights.

"From existing "hate speech laws" in the West (in EU, Canada, etc.) it is unclear what constitutes as "threats" or "harassment". I think all these laws must be repealed, or at least fundamentally revised to include well-defined, precise and objective criteria."

While I agree with you on what you say about hate speech laws, I disagree with what you say about threats and harassment. It is clear enough what constitutes threats of violence or threats of criminal activity (e.g, blackmail etc.). By harassment I was referring to what is currently understood under most western jurisdictions, mainly in terms of bullying, stalking, repeated frequent unwanted disturbing phone calls, etc. I would not include mere criticism, lampoon, or strong insult of religion or other beliefs under this category.

What I meant is "threats and harassment" in the general context of "hate speech".

(Let's take a case of Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff in Austria, for example. What the hell is "denigration of religious teachings of a legally recognized religion" ? For that matter, I "denigrate legally recognized" BS all the time.)

When certain "large sections of society" don't seem to worry that their commonly shared ideas are not just "crass, tasteless and offensive", but explicitly and unabashedly evil, then being "nice" to them is (understandably) not on the list of priorities of their opponents.

I wrote: 4. Do you think the Muhammad cartoons, or the other things you mentioned, should be illegal? If so, what should be the penalty? If not, what should be the response?

You replied (my emphasis): "4. Do I think that people who draw pictures, or put a cross in a urine recepticle in the name of art or make holocaust jokes be made criminals? No."

I'm glad that we seem to agree on this important issue, but for some reason you have excluded mention of the Muhammad cartoons and lampoon of Islam in your response. Can you respond to my questions (see 4), specifically with regard to the Muhammad cartoons?

"But I do think that's it's crass and tasteless and offensive to large sections of society? Yes."

Are you suggesting that cartoonists should not be able to engage in what they see as legitimate social commentary, humor, etc.? If Islam is now part of their (Danish and other cartoonists') society and they are exposed to it on a daily basis, why wouldn't they wish to comment on it? And why should such comment always be either seen as flattering or neutral? Wasn't the cartoonist who depicted Muhammad with a bomb on his head making a legitimate commentary on violent Islamists who really have used bombs to kill people (while killing themselves) in what they see as the cause of Islam? Indeed, in this case, life has imitated art, so to speak, in that members of the Taliban have actually used bombs in turbans.

"would I take part in that crap? No."

You speak critically with those with whom you disagree. That's all okay, in itself. But if you were a cartoonist or visual artist, your chosen mode of expression might be graphic, and involve social commentary and possibly ridicule and lampoon. What would be wrong with that?

"For the people that do, then I would question whether they are really advocates of freedom or do they have another agenda!Why would you do something where nothing good is going to come from it???"

Something good can come from social commentary that is supported by the facts and sound moral thinking. From there it all depends on how people choose to respond to it.

Cartoonists have as many rights as others. Lots of people (visual artists of all kinds) express themselves through visual media. Are you denying them the right to criticize, using the media of their choice, the criminal behavior* of (the character) "Muhammad", or the tactics of some of his self-described followers today?

*Not that all or even most of the cartoons in question addressed this.

It IS right. Very much so.For centuries western thinkers, writers, artists and public figures were ridiculing organized religions, often using extremely derogatory and "offensive" terms. The world didn't end, but society was eventually freed from the tyranny of backward cultist fanaticism.

There's NO reason whatsoever to start appeasing psychotic medievalist fanatics in the 21st century. But there are ALL reasons to oppose them even more intensely than ever before. Especially since these medievalist nutjobs are now armed with 21st century technologies and therefore are much more dangerous to the civilized world.

Kafir is right at home in Israel! allah gave the whole of Palestine to the Jews:

surah 10:93 And certainly We lodged the children of Israel in a goodly abode and We provided them with good things; but they did not disagree until the knowledge had come to them; surely your Lord will judge between them on the resurrection day concerning that in which they disagreed.

surah 17:104 And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.

This is precisely why I recognize the threat and understand the implications. The entire Middle East can be described by a very fitting german expression "Der Arsch Der Welt" (the world's arse), full of various fanatical medievalists, hell-bent on achieving one single goal - global apocalypse.

Jesus lived a perfect life and the requirement for us to make it into heaven is to do the same. But since we have a sinful nature and it's impossible to be perfect, Jesus was sacrificed as a spotless lamb to atone for our sinful lives. In my opinion Muhammad died like a 'poisoned rat' because he wasn't actually God's messenger