While we strive for a lively and vigorous debate of the issues, we do not tolerate name calling, foul language or other inappropriate behavior. Please see our discussion guidelines and terms of use for more information.

While we do our best to moderate comments, we do not screen comments before they are posted. If you see a comment that violates our guidelines, please use the "Report Abuse" link to notify us of the issue.

Most probably don't dislike Ellis as a player with certain abilities, but dislike that guard combo of him and Jennings playing together. [BCJ] understands one must go and doesn't want that guy to be Jennings.

I have no question in my mind that you absolutely dislike Harris [G$]. Drafting a younger player in the mid-first round is always risky businessand this one hasn't quite worked out yet, and maybe never will.

I wonder how much interest there is in Harris around the league? I still have hope for the kid.

IAT my dislike for Ellis has nothing to do with Jennings or who he plays with. I don't like Ellis and the effort he displays in playing the game. I don't care what team he is on. He has no desire to play hard..........ever! He cheats the game.

While Ellis (like Jennings) "appears" to take nights off, I can assure you {bcj} 'these eyes' have witnessed a oneMonta Ellis play hard/ hustle/ etc. He seems to have a skill set that might be worthy of note if only 'the other side'did'nt surface as often. I've stated frequently that Ellis is responsible for far too many 'empty possessions'. Yet,to suggest his "desire" is lacking or doesn't "play hard ever"might just be sellin the guy short. And, I'm not a big fan of the guy either. Just not going to the extreme you seem to visit>*****

I think Monta is a good help defender, just that he isn't a good on-ball defender. As for offense, he's a high volume scorer, which isn't a good thing. He shoots way too many outside jumpers. He turns the ball over too many times when he drives. He's had a tough stretch the last two weeks. One thing for sure: he'll try to shoot his way outta this funk.

Yeah, I'm pretty much in the same boat concerning both players. Declaring he "cheats the game" seemed a little too negative for me. It seems my suggestion was incorrect about the Jennings/Ellis duo having anything to do with [BCJ]'s disparagement of Monta, but ... if I held Brandon Jennings in the same high esteem as he does, it's only natural to take sides. IMO.

I think Brandon still has upside. I think he can be a better distributor and defender. I think with better players Brandon would be willing to be a pass-first PG. Now I think he feels he doesn't have a choice but take the scoring role. With Monta, what you see is what you get. He ain't changing his game for nobody.

Sorry off topic here, but can someone give me an update on why Tobias Harris isn't getting any minutes. I admit that I haven't been watching as much of the Bucks as usual but I don't remember if he was injured or if it is just a coaching decision.

Someone may have something else for ya (FAN), yet, as we roll through these threads I can assure you little has been discussed by way of J/S staff/or by way of the Bucks Admin.

That said, some here speculate that while he may have some upside to his offensive game, the rest is pretty much a work in progress. We note Boylan going to Henson more (since Skiles departure), yet, Tobias shares space with others at Pines End.

And some (FAN) have even left the good ship Tobias stating he too has fallen into that perverbial list of Hammond's wasted picks. So much written, and spoken of this kid in the summer leading into the season. Truly, a present dissapointment. Has for the big picture.....'stay tuned partner'>>>?

Thanks kstein for relying my sediments. I'll admit when I'm wrong (not liking the Bogut trade, confused in drafting another PF in Henson) but I'm still disappointed Hammond took tweener Harris and not MarShon Brooks or a a stretch 4 project in Donatus Motiejunas. Here's to hoping I'm wrong!

I had ya in mind {money} but, I'm not one to kiss and tell, OR"name names"....:>)---And for the record I personally have not given up on the kid.He has some upside. Patience is often needed as these kids growdifferently. And, just when ya think about given up on them...Larry Sanders appears. (Your GM brought both Sammy D, and Joe Pon board because they too thought Sanders had pretty much leveled off?')Whooooopsss>>>***

LOL! Tobias got his chance to play at the beginning of the season. he failed miserably. Obviously Boylan feels the same way as Skiles: the kid can't play. Brooks gets tick-tock in Brooklyn. Although inconsistent(one game 17 pts the next 4pts) he has shown he can play in the NBA. I haven't any glimpses from Tobias. None.

Not to get into a semantics bout with you {money} yet his 'failed miserably' needs to be said within the context of thistime frame. His failure then does not preclude success later.

Hence, I'd pause at least another season before dumpin the guy.How many draft picks is this team going to acquire only then to release them within the next season or two? Coaching shouldbe a verb, not a noun. I'm sure their (coaches) are working with him>

Tobias is currently 4th on the Bucks in true shooting %, 4th in points per minute and 4th in points per shot. He is the best combination of effectiveness and efficiency the this team has, and he has been that way for two years. Say his defense is bad, but don't say that he can't score. On many teams (those with less of a defensive focus) he would be a key player.

Your (BNK) slide rule approach to evaluating the Bucks is very maddening to me and glaringly says you don't know much about basketball except for crunching the numbers. Tobias Harris got extended time and what I saw from him...ON THE COURT... is a raw player that has poor ball handling skills and can't create a shot for himself. When he does, its been put right back in his face. I still think Tobias Harris is a sleeper though and with a lot of work on his game will be an effective player in this league. Getting sent down may be a good thing for him but getting to watch and learn in practice may be the best thing for him. Like I said, he will get there much like Sanders eventually did. The raw tools are there the speed and control he plays at is not.......yet. .

Simple. He doesn't deserve it. You fans think this is about sentimentality? The coaches know if he is ready or not. He is not....he is too slow and is only 20. He is not ready. If he stayed at Tennessee and learned to guard someone with his size we might have something.

You're right, he plays too slow but Larry Bird wasn't exactly quick but found a way to score. In time, Harris will eventually improve and get faster and find ways to score. Better ballhandling and being able to go right or left will help. What he does have going for him is his ability to shoot the ball and his range. That is critical. Give him time he will get there.

Slow, fat, stupid or not-able-to-get-his-own shot, ten shots by Tobias will get you 12 points, while ten by Ellis will be lucky to get you eleven. No matter how hard you watch the game, nothing will change that. Sure he can be awkward, and has poor handles, but on a team that struggles with efficiency and field goal percentage, he is the cure.

actually Brewcrejon, if you take into account that Harris' minutes literally stopped following the T'wolves game at the end of November and that I did my math right, Harris shot 50.5% while getting significant minutes throughout the month of November. Like I said, from the beginning of December to now he has not been considered a significant contributor. Thus, if you notice his 48.1% for the season overall, you see his best minutes were put forth outside of garbage time. So not only was he scoring more efficiently as a contributor than as a garbage player, but he is the second most efficient perimeter player to Beno as a contributor.

Don't you think lots of NBA players think they're better than they actually are? It seems to me that there are very few real 'difference makers' but a bunch of good players, that in the right situation, can impact their teams.

He is as good as them...in some ways. What's the problem? Kobe misses as many shots percentage wise then Monta and Wade and no one says anything. They are volume players. Just baskletball players and all have the same impact on their teams, regardless to how much Monta is ripped here. He is an elite level player and that is how they better treat him and how we better if we want to increase his value.

The big question: Is Monta covering Kobe? Hopefully not, I'm thinking Luc, Daniels and Dunleavy will get a crack at slowing Kobe down. I'm ok with Luc and Daniels using up their fouls in attempt to fuster Kobe.

While Kobe certainly is the extreme example of the vulnerabilites at the Two Spot specifically, and the Guard positions in general, many a night Ellis is challenged (as is BJ) with cats a whole lot bigger then they are.I'm fairly certain both of their offensive games are compromised when up against the more talented guys on the Association Continum.

Ellis's ACE? HIs speed, and quickness. He very well could be one of the fastest players on the floor presently. This man can gitty up..!----

Just prior to this new thread...this was posted. Its content finds congruency with this thread as Ellis is in the spot light.Lets re-post, and add comments:----

"Things always seem cheery here after a Bucks victory, especially a 20 point comeback win and so gloomy after a disappointing loss (Friday night). And why not. This team has all of us on a roller coaster ride. Wondering exactly what this season holds.

My specific question is what move are the Bucks going to make. With expiring contracts of Mike Dunleavy, Beno Udrich, Samual Dalembert and Monta Ellis (in all probability) the Bucks are loaded to make moves toward the future and rebuilding this whole team.

Or are they going to try to add a significant piece or a couple of smaller pieces to aid in their playoff hopes?

IMO, I just want them to do something, one way or the other. While competing for a playoff spot with this team in tack seems possible, it would be another season of paddling upstream.

Boylan has made it clear he likes the young guys with hopes they will develop and pay dividends down the road. So do lots of guys who visit here. Therein lies the sticking point. For Boylan to keep his job, he probably has to make playoff run, and maybe even win a couple of games vs a high ranking team. So it comes down to this. It's not Boylan's decision what happens before the trading deadline. Somebody else, making the big bucks needs a clear vision.

I just hope that vision is not to do anything and hope for the best, again."

Here's my concern irregardless of players available.Who will be the GM/Coach AFTER this season.?

We all know that certain coaches prefer certain players, and as was the case with Skiles, each coach has 'tendencies'which make it absolutely necessary to match Coach to players.Dalembert and Ellis, for different reasons, seem save to let go.The latter with too much invested in to simply let go without reciprecation, AND, the notion he seems to prefer a new address anyway. Sammy D>, imo, just not a good fit for this run run run club. (need younger / faster).

With Michael and Beno I can see some coaches embracing thesetwo, while perhaps others won't? I like em both, but, I'm not puttinthis thing together.

Therefore, until the TOP is solidfied lets be very careful in moving aroundother parts until such a time when the Suit Issues have been quelled?****

I think he could be in for a double win. Playing Henson and Sanders helps now and the future. I think they should send Tobias down to the NBDL with Lamb. I think that's the only hope for Tobias, because riding the pines won't help him get any better.

I'm sorry, but Kobe's defensive prowess is vastly overrated. Never mind what the Defensive First Team selections may say, he's lazy on the defensive end. Ellis and Jennings will be absolutely key for this game because there's no way Kobe, Nash or Duhon can check them when they're being aggressive. Defensively if we can stop Howard and Nash from beating us and keep the ball in Kobe's hands (not hard to do) then we should win this game.

Also, with Hill and Gasol out (right?) the Lakers bench is literally just a bench, so even if we fall behind to the starters we should have no trouble battling back. Hopefully we can pile it on this frustrated Lakers team.

On 'NBA players that should be dealt'........tell us something that we don't know, Bleacher Rapport:

"Gooden could still be a fairly productive player in this league, but he's been buried on the Bucks' bench. Sitting behind Ersan Ilyasova, Larry Sanders and John Henson, Gooden is nothing more than a highly-paid cheerleader in Milwaukee.

The youthful Bucks have no need for Gooden, especially when you consider he is owed $6.68 million over each of the next three seasons. Milwaukee would be wise to dump Gooden before they have to dish out more money to player who isn't logging minutes.

Beno Udrih - PG, Milwaukee Bucks

Another Buck who should be on the move, Udrih will likely be easier to get rid of than Gooden. That's because he has an attractive expiring contract, with his $7.3 million deal coming off the books after this season.

Udrih has also been decent in his limited playing time. He's averaging eight points, 3.2 assists and 2.3 rebounds in 18.9 minutes per game. As an added bonus, he's shooting a career-high 52.5 percent from the field.

The 30-year-old Udrih is a decent backup point guard, but with Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis each playing more than 36 minutes per game, he's not exactly necessary in Milwaukee. If the Bucks can get a quality asset or two in return for Udrih, they should pull the trigger."

Here's another Rudy scenario custom made just to rile uP BCJ, from Noam @ the Paroxysm:

"Noam: I’ve been intrigued by the recent Rudy Gay trade talk. On the one hand, I’ve been a big backer of these Memphis Grizzlies, and am dying to see what a fully healthy Conley-Allen-Gay-Randolph-Gasol lineup can do come playoff time. Then again, the Clippers and Thunder (and feel free to throw in the Spurs if you wish) seem to be distancing themselves from the pack as the Grizz offense has bogged down, and the tax concerns are very real.

The only way a Rudy deal makes sense is if Memphis gets back a combination of an acceptable starting 3, an actual long range shooter, and some backcourt scoring off the bench. Off the top of my head, the teams that best fit that description are the Suns (Jared Dudley as the first two, Shannon Brown as the latter, with the added potential of moving Marcin Gortat to a third team if needed) and the Bucks (Mike Dunleavy is absolutely perfect for this team’s shooting woes, and I have this weird feeling that Lionel Hollins can make Monta Ellis work). What do you think? Rudy? No Rudy?"

Monta Ellis straight up for Aaron Afflalo. I like Afflalo better than Rudy Gay, because Afflalo is a more complete player. Also, Bucks would then be set at shooting guard for the next 3 seasons. Orlando may be willing to do this because, assuming Ellis opts out of his deal after this season (and that's likely what will happen), it frees up money for the Magic to re-sign Orlando's favorite son, JJ Reddick. I can't imagine the Magic will re-sign Reddick if they have Afflalo on the roster. They can't pay two shooting guards that kind of money. The Ellis-Afflalo trade can be straight up even though the salaries don't match because Orlando has a trade exception.

Stunningly, this is Marques Johnson’s first appearance as a finalist for the Hall of Fame. It’s all the more unbelievable considering in 1977 at UCLA he was the AP Player of the Year, the Naismith Player of the Year, Sporting News Player of the Year and the John R. Wooden Award. The Hall of Fame LOVES when a great pro is also an outstanding college player.

Johnson’s NBA career was definitely a great one, too. He was a five-time all-star and a three-time member of the All-NBA team. He was a mobile forward who could score with power and finesse. On occasion he could also run the offense of the Milwaukee Bucks. Given that his coach was Don Nelson, you can see why this would come about. Johnson’s career averages of 20 points and 7 rebounds don’t translate into big-time career totals, though. He was hit by the Los Angeles Clippers curse, injuring his neck in November of 1986. The injury effectively ended his career as Marques managed just 10 more games in a brief comeback during the 1989-90 season.

Despite his first-time status as a finalist, I think Marques has the goods on the pro and college level to get in.

If they won't take Moncrief, I have a hard time seeing them take Marques. It doesn't seem fair that Dumars and Dennis Johnson are considered shoo-ins while Sidney can't get his due. He was the better player, and while Dumars and DJ got rings, they were never the best player on their own team.

And some more scuttlebutt on the Scott Skiles Saga from the Boston Globe........this is for U, SpecialK:

"The reality in Milwaukee is that coach Scott Skiles wanted out months ago, putting his house up for sale in the area and banking that he could get the Orlando job. It didn’t happen, and Skiles had no interest in a contract extension with a roster that is a strange combination of aging veterans, solid but not spectacular youngsters, and the backcourt of Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings, who can score but can’t defend. Skiles never liked this roster and had lost his zest to coach, so his exit was good for both sides. Skiles wants to coach again, but he has burned bridges in so many locations that it’s hard to imagine him finding a job anytime soon . . . "