Yes, WTF re the gay marriage crap. I’m glad we have crushed that one here. It took a lot of doin’ though, and we’re pretty godless. I think fundamentally for Canada it’s the quote of one of our most beloved former prime ministers that helped the most, who said it first: “The government has no business in the bedrooms of the nation”

I’m with you. I make my living investigating discrimination complaints. Prop 8 passing makes it hard to get out of bed and come to work. Why bother, if the friggin’ state constitution is going to uphold discrimination as a “family value”? You know what? My family values critical thinking!

that is the WRONG ANSWER. If they really love their country, they will stay, and work hard for the next few years and take another swing at it. No one said gaining equality was easy or quick, and it shouldn’t be because things that are easy or free have no value. It was 145 yrs almost exactly between the final emancipation proclaimation and last night where for the first time at the highest office in the nation there was true equality even being considered. (how many times has jesse jackson run for president and gotten like not even 1%?)

I have a lot of faith that in our lifetime we will see gays as truly equal in this country. But if people just give up at the first or second or fifth setback, they don’t deserve the equality they claim they desire.

I have no respect for people who say “i will leave the country if ___”. That is not how democracy works. You win some, you lose some, and when you lose you turn around and fight harder so the thing you were fighting for has meaning, and you show that you honestly believe in what you are fighting for.

because if you leave you are saying, this is not worth fighting for. not for me, not for my friends, not for the future, not for other generations, not for those who have no option to leave. You are saying that what is more important than this right that I say I believe in is my personal satisfaction right now.

Leaving doesn’t mean not fighting. US citizens living abroad, even permanently, can vote and contribute money. Yes, dedicated activists will find it hard to do as much, but most of us aren’t dedicated activists. Criticizing people for not being dedicated activists is reasonable (especially if you’re a dedicated activist), but where one lives doesn’t necessarily make much difference.

You are saying that what is more important than this right that I say I believe in is my personal satisfaction right now.

It’s true that people are more satisfied when they have civil rights, but I don’t think wanting to have civil rights should be reduced to “personal satisfaction right now”.

That is true, americans who move will still be eligible to vote should they choose to exercise that right. But I don’t think it will happen. I also incidentally don’t think people will move because this is classic white person whining that you hear after almost every election, not to mention most of Canada is way more repressive about homosexuality and won’t allow most of the Americans in anyway. But it’s the sentiment that I am truly attacking. To me it says, because I did not get what I want, I will take my ball and go home. And that to me is moral cowardice and just plain selfishness.

I think where one lives makes all the difference. When I was growing up in Yugoslavia I barely paid attention to the United States even tho I was still a citizen and most of my other family was here. But I was busy paying attention to the place that mattered to me, where I was actually living. Now that’s just me and I sure know plenty of people who live abroad and still play plenty of attention to politics, but I know just as many that didn’t even vote in this election because where they are now is more important to them since they actually live there.

And personal satisfaction was a poor choice of wording. What I should have said was something along the lines of “because I didn’t get what I wanted RIGHT NOW”. Democracy is slow. Change is slow. But if people up and leave now they nullify all the work they did before, and they nullify the contribution that they would have made just by staying and exposing people who may not have been exposed to their lifestyle that it is just as normal as anyone else’s. In the town I live in which is an extremely small conservative town, many people voted against prop 8 solely because they knew gay couples in this town and that exposure made them understand that gay people are just like normal people and aren’t all deviant castro twinks out to steal their children.

So what activist groups are you working with (or going to be working with) now? After this past week and a half of campaigning I have plenty more energy and am wondering where to direct it, so I could use any suggestions you have based on your experience.

well right now I am looking for people who are organizing to start collecting signatures for the next ballot initiative. I think something will come out of the No on 8 campaign from this time. The first step is to get signatures so that means more of standing in parking lots asking people to “plz sign this ballot initiative to define marriage as a union between two consenting adults”.

At this point tho, they have to still count all the absentee and provisionals which will take a week. Then I think that they will probably start organizing with the next campaign. If you are registered on noon8.com you will probably get something in the next couple weeks about what to do next.

That is specific to Prop 8 tho. If you want something more broad I can name you off like a million different places to help. Indymedia always needs more people ESPECIALLY anyone who can translate particularly spanish of all varieties, arabic, russian, and chinese.

I like working within local politics best so that is always where I focus most. This election I figured Obama was a shoo-in in California and spent most of my energy on Prop 8 and Prop 4. Luckily Prop 4 failed or I would be out there right now trying to figure out a legal way to strike it down. I admit that I spent most of my energy on Prop 4 because it is SO important to me, you really have no idea.

Well, I can think of a million places I could help, too, but I don’t know where to start, so a personal recommendation is always good :-) (I live in Oregon so I’m less equipped to help with the Prop.-8-related stuff, though I’m sympathetic. Of course there’s plenty more we could be doing on queer rights here…)

i am betting that there are organizations working to get it on the ballot there too. oregon is pretty progressive compared to the midwest so there are probably.

Really tho I would go work with someone like Acorn or one of the youth voter registration orgs like rock the vote, league of young voters, or votolatino. That is what I am thinking about doing in the next year. Build on the upswell from this election and get all those blase teenagers out there to register to vote, and then actually go vote. And I particularly want to target latino voters so I can connect with them for later when the No on 8 crew starts back up for the next battle :)

In general I agree, as I wrote in ’04. I have no intention of leaving myself, and I wasn’t engaging in the kind of petulant handwaving you’re referring to.

LGBT people are under attack, and I worry that the next steps will be dangerous. It isn’t “classic white person whining” to show concern for another group who may be disenfranchised or worse in the coming years.

i really do not think there will be more steps backwards. I think that this passed *solely* through shifty tricks, NOT because people honestly voted with knowledge. That shadyass bullshit with teaching homosexuality in schools swayed so many people who were then never exposed to No on Prop 8’s ad rebutting it with the school supervisor guy.

I dunno, I speak about this only to Californians, I can’t possibly know or understand how things are in other parts of the country, but in California people should stay, because we CAN beat this. If not for all the money the Mormons funneled into it, Prop 8 would have been thrown down because everyone balks at the words “amendment to constitution” if they don’t know whats going on. Think about how many people are in California with Tivo or Comcast tuners that fast forward through commercials and only get their news from the gathering after Church. That is why I believe the Latino vote turned out against it so heavily, the exposure to the paranoia that their kids would be forced into gay school. And when people are scared they vote scared. I think it was older more conservative whites and people of color who are religious who pushed this thing over the edge, and I think a better campaign next time and more compassionate awareness in the meantime will really help.

I would at least move to a different state.. but then again, if anything is going to change it will likely have to come from the inside. When I see stuff like gay persons being elected to public offices it gives me hope that the greater population will slowly get used to the idea.