tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post7663197167535763577..comments2009-04-07T05:57:21.838+02:00Comments on Ola Bini: Programming Language Synchronicity: There can be only one, a tale about Ruby, IronRuby, MS and whatnotOla Binihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15793488672952593953noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-14194898486470515592007-06-05T22:39:00.000+02:002007-06-05T22:39:00.000+02:00John Lam discussed the difficulties of looking at ...John Lam discussed the difficulties of looking at Open Source code in a podcast with me. Its a total CYA move by Microsoft lawyers, but it is the reality of working at Microsoft. But today John mentioned that they are licensing the Garden's Point Ruby.NET code, so hopefully that shields them a bit from litigation.<BR/><BR/>Another problem is accepting community contributions, which they are not doing now. Microsoft's sponsorship and licensing of GP's Ruby.NET may also explain why that project is also not overtly accepting community contributions.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for the shameless plug, but here is the podcast of our conversation: <A HREF="http://rubiverse.com/podcasts/1-john-lam-on-ironruby" REL="nofollow">John Lam on IronRuby</A>blowmagehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03568175876382459120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-31470266682751661412007-06-05T12:54:00.000+02:002007-06-05T12:54:00.000+02:00@Jukka: Thank you very much. I blame the MacOSX au...@Jukka: Thank you very much. I blame the MacOSX autospelling code. It's very good, but doesn't help me with grammar.Ola Binihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15793488672952593953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-38634427834590792092007-06-05T12:39:00.000+02:002007-06-05T12:39:00.000+02:00I think this 'process of mistrust' is exactly what...I think this 'process of mistrust' is exactly what was experienced by the IronPython team from the Python community. A lot were very distrustful of Microsoft providing a Python implementation.<BR/><BR/>A few in the Python community are still distrustful - but it has proved to be very good for Python.<BR/><BR/>Also Python is a good counterexample of having multiple implemntations *before* it could become mature.<BR/><BR/>It is only now, long after Python was mature and well used as a language that we have multiple implementations. I agree that having multiple implementations is very good for a language though.<BR/><BR/>IronPython in particular has highlighted inadequacies in the specification of Python for example, and also examples of bad practise in the standard library (relying on semi-private and undocumented features which simply don't port to another implementation).Fuzzymanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06229713779852499022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-40860515195852100412007-06-05T08:48:00.000+02:002007-06-05T08:48:00.000+02:00Well, the team over at Queensland University are m...Well, the team over at Queensland University are making rapid progress at creating <A HREF="http://plas2003.fit.qut.edu.au/Ruby.NET/" REL="nofollow">Ruby.Net</A>. And they certainly do not have any restrictions on looking at open source code. Last time I checked what John Lam was up to it looked like the aussies were a little bit ahead.Peter Krantzhttp://www.peterkrantz.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-4138676178232152702007-06-05T07:30:00.000+02:002007-06-05T07:30:00.000+02:00It's a shame that Martin Fowler embarrasses himsel...It's a shame that Martin Fowler embarrasses himself by sinking into a Slashdot mentality.<BR/><BR/>Once the JRuby guys stop trolling over at John Lam's blog and start understanding that they have no say in what happens in IronRuby they'll be able to cope with reality a bit better.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-63428926845816199642007-06-05T05:59:00.000+02:002007-06-05T05:59:00.000+02:00I think that your intial thesis, that there must b...I think that your intial thesis, that there must be multiple implementations of a language for it to succeed, is provably false. Perl, for one, is an excellent counter-example. It may be the case that <B>most</B> successful languages have been through several implementations, but it's certainly not a <B>requirement</B>. To date, Perl has been very widely <I>ported</I> to various environments and <I>embedded</I> within many other applications, but all from a common principle implementation.<BR/><BR/>It is true that Perl 6 is working its way toward two implementations (Perl 6 on Parrot and Pugs), and, similarly, there are plans to make a Perl 5 implementation on Parrot... but these are all in the future, and Perl has managed to become a widely accepted successful language without parallel implementations, to date.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-19698342141724766712007-06-04T15:04:00.000+02:002007-06-04T15:04:00.000+02:00Sorry to be totally off-topic here, and a Grammar ...Sorry to be totally off-topic here, and a Grammar Police too, but I just can't help it.<BR/><BR/>Let's see:<BR/><BR/>- I have<BR/>- You have<BR/>- He/She/It .. have ? :)Jukkahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05369790438017638274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-1547641664948234432007-06-04T13:40:00.000+02:002007-06-04T13:40:00.000+02:00Concerning RSpec : Rubinius uses something called ...Concerning RSpec : Rubinius uses something called "minirspec" that implements a subset of the DSL. It's really simple (2 files or so) and doesn't use most of the RSpec magic. It hasn't yet been defined what is the minimal implementation needed to run it. All in all, I think that it would be a good idea to use that to build the BFTS :-)<BR/><BR/>Btw, let's see this in the good way ; maybe the IronRuby team will take some of their time to complete the specs and the test suites. Most of the programmers I know prefer to do more exciting stuff in their free time anyway.<BR/><BR/>@ola bini : how is the Ruby license viral ? I though it was a MIT derivative<BR/><BR/>(if this message appears more than one time, it's blogger's fault :-P)zimbatmhttp://zimbatm.oree.chnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-71838879239519623562007-06-04T11:59:00.000+02:002007-06-04T11:59:00.000+02:00@fuzzy: true enough. but it's a very fuzzy area, a...@fuzzy: true enough. but it's a very fuzzy area, and IronPython isn't really a good comparison. read Charles Nutters answer to my post: http://headius.blogspot.comOla Binihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15793488672952593953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-29141128948170157972007-06-04T11:23:00.000+02:002007-06-04T11:23:00.000+02:00Fair enough - although the IronPython team test Ir...Fair enough - although the IronPython team test IronPython by running the standard Python test suite, so they certainly *use* Python (and a lot of Python is written in Python - so it is a 'grey area').Fuzzymanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06229713779852499022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-45912415554468022552007-06-04T08:20:00.000+02:002007-06-04T08:20:00.000+02:00It is true and verified, by among others Chris Sel...It is true and verified, by among others Chris Sells, Scott Hanselman (who has good insight into MS) and John Lam. It's not FUD. MS employees have been before, and will be terminated if they look at source code with "viral" licenses.Ola Binihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15793488672952593953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19626531.post-30959615747437594072007-06-04T01:38:00.000+02:002007-06-04T01:38:00.000+02:00Is it true (and verified) that John is not allowed...Is it true (and verified) that John is not allowed to look at the source for Ruby?<BR/><BR/>To be honest that sounds like FUD, and I find it highly unlikely...Fuzzymanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06229713779852499022noreply@blogger.com