That makes sense too. for the rest of us it's basically theory that would help, since we just don't have an intuitive grasp for it.

Where enneagram and MBTI intersects, I guess.

The simple way I see Fe is that it's focused on creating emotional atmospheres. I know a very self-centered xSFJ who is the last person you'd expect to identify as Fe, but it's clear from her communication that she is one. Effectively, Fe-valuers wish to create an environment where others are free to speak their thoughts. Fi-valuers wish to conceal this. However, this could manifest as self-preservation or sexual just as easily as it could social.

Instincts are all about survival. I'd be interested to get some videos of interactions that play heavily towards particular instinctual stacks.

02-19-2017, 06:08 PM

agentwashington

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyclepath

The simple way I see Fe is that it's focused on creating emotional atmospheres. I know a very self-centered xSFJ who is the last person you'd expect to identify as Fe, but it's clear from her communication that she is one. Effectively, Fe-valuers wish to create an environment where others are free to speak their thoughts. Fi-valuers wish to conceal this. However, this could manifest as self-preservation or sexual just as easily as it could social.

Instincts are all about survival. I'd be interested to get some videos of interactions that play heavily towards particular instinctual stacks.

Survival is much easier with so instincts because that's essentially what humans are, and that's why I don't like having an so blind spot, to be honest.

I don't agree that Fe wishes to create such an environment. It's likely a result of Ti internalising that such an environment is simply the most ethical social environment, and Fe acts on it. Function stacks are not a drive. But I haven't really looked deeply enough at various interpretations of jungian functions to actually delve deeply enough into it, so feel free to disagree.

02-19-2017, 06:24 PM

five sounds

i feel like navigating ACTUAL social situations is always tarnished by SO stuff to me. like, to me i see the way people get along to be fabricated and superficial. like networking and being in groups with social norms kinda freaks me out because to me that shit isn't real. so by looking deeper into human interaction, i'm seeking to find the nature of ourselves outside of cultural/societal/regional/etc. influence.

so to me, the rules or feedback my environment gives me for how different people relate to one another seems narrow or unreliable. also, it doesn't work for me. so i'm looking for other ways to understand it. because i really love people and connection, but i also tend to be socially brutish.

02-19-2017, 07:32 PM

cascadeco

Quote:

Originally Posted by five sounds

i feel like navigating ACTUAL social situations is always tarnished by SO stuff to me. like, to me i see the way people get along to be fabricated and superficial. like networking and being in groups with social norms kinda freaks me out because to me that shit isn't real. so by looking deeper into human interaction, i'm seeking to find the nature of ourselves outside of cultural/societal/regional/etc. influence.

so to me, the rules or feedback my environment gives me for how different people relate to one another seems narrow or unreliable. also, it doesn't work for me. so i'm looking for other ways to understand it. because i really love people and connection, but i also tend to be socially brutish.

For me, even though I am so-dom, I am just as uncomfortable with social situations such as you describe, and for the same reasons. I consider myself so-dom though because I am distinctly aware of all of it, aware of what I would need to do to be part of it (even though I don't want to do it), am self concious enough about not fitting in as well or acting in that manner, but right, aware of it. So dom doesn't always equal partaking in it; there can be a counterphobic element to it, intense self conciousness element, and caring about not fitting into it even though ultimately one chooses not to do it. I think typically so-lasts are either unaware of any of it, or actually really don't care about sticking out. (btw not saying you are not so-last, just sharing my experiences as so-dom and how I can feel very similarly to you)

imo much of the typical So-descriptive things you find on the internet tend to describe 1)extroverts 2)e3 or e1 enneagram especially (ie those who tend to 'network', belong to organizations, value community stuff, and so on)

02-19-2017, 07:45 PM

phobik

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyclepath

Or, the alternative question: How do so-lasts view typology?

I notice a lot of people on this forum (and Personality Cafe) are sp/sx or sx/sp. It's something that I find strange, mainly because typology deals with a very human issue. In many ways, both Jung/Socionics and the Enneagram can be viewed as matrices that box humans into a grid of relative behaviours.

My understanding of the social instinct is as follows:

It's ultimately a desire to identify within societies or create them. I feel like socials are the intellectuals among the Enneagram, being generally more "sophisticated" in their interests. They are not necessarily the deepest thinkers, but I imagine fields such as comedy and debating are filled largely with social firsts. Possibly a large number of documentaries are made by social-firsts as well. Most university/college societies are headed by social-firsts.

I suppose that a sexual creative (secondary instinct) is typically going to be more idealistic and emotionally-charged than a self-preservation creative, which is focused more on order. I imagine that Keirsey's Guardian Temperament was a loose interpretation of the so/sp stacking.

In general though, I think there's a strong element of duty within all forms of the social instinct. It's the recognition that we're not alone, and we desire to create social structures. I imagine most advocates of art within society are so/sx: at least as far as using it to enrich a society is concerned. If the sexual instinct focuses on creating fulfilment, I imagine that when it's second to social, much of its energy is used to create a more fulfilling, perfect society. It's a de-valuing of the focus on practicality that is self-preservation.

i feel like navigating ACTUAL social situations is always tarnished by SO stuff to me. like, to me i see the way people get along to be fabricated and superficial. like networking and being in groups with social norms kinda freaks me out because to me that shit isn't real. so by looking deeper into human interaction, i'm seeking to find the nature of ourselves outside of cultural/societal/regional/etc. influence.

so to me, the rules or feedback my environment gives me for how different people relate to one another seems narrow or unreliable. also, it doesn't work for me. so i'm looking for other ways to understand it. because i really love people and connection, but i also tend to be socially brutish.

I think most people aren't comfortable being open and bare with others or often with themselves. So in a way, the social protocol is like a collective save face for the individual. I don't like cliques and mob mentality, and rather prefer to not bother with/ find external expectation trying.

02-19-2017, 07:55 PM

five sounds

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobik

I think most people aren't comfortable being open and bare with others or often with themselves. So in a way, the social protocol is like a collective save face for the individual. I don't like cliques and mob mentality, and rather prefer to not bother with/ find external expectation trying.

OK so I feel silly after what @cascadeco said bc I feel my understanding of social instinct is not great maybe. I know nobody likes the 'game' really, or most don't. But to me it's like awareness of it existing and feeling like I'm at a disadvantage because I don't really know how to play. Like trying to talk about football when I have a rudimentary idea of the rules but have picked some stuff up through observation. Also groups of people at all just shut me right down. Idk.

02-19-2017, 08:08 PM

phobik

Quote:

Originally Posted by five sounds

OK so I feel silly after what @cascadeco said bc I feel my understanding of social instinct is not great maybe. I know nobody likes the 'game' really, or most don't. But to me it's like awareness of it existing and feeling like I'm at a disadvantage because I don't really know how to play. Like trying to talk about football when I have a rudimentary idea of the rules but have picked some stuff up through observation. Also groups of people at all just shut me right down. Idk.

Idk, I was/can be oblivious to it somewhat, it's more of noticing the consequences if I don't make an effort, thus peer pressure/expectation, people might assume/judge when I'd rather not have to bother. While I know to be friendly and warm, that is more taxing than being myself among those I don't have to worry about that. Tbh, similar to tiptoeing around feelers :D

02-19-2017, 08:13 PM

cascadeco

Quote:

Originally Posted by five sounds

OK so I feel silly after what @cascadeco said bc I feel my understanding of social instinct is not great maybe. I know nobody likes the 'game' really, or most don't. But to me it's like awareness of it existing and feeling like I'm at a disadvantage because I don't really know how to play. Like trying to talk about football when I have a rudimentary idea of the rules but have picked some stuff up through observation. Also groups of people at all just shut me right down. Idk.

Yeah, most social groups make me feel uncomfortable, at least in a party setting, acquaintance setting, whatnot. I'm incredibly uncomfortable in most social settings and am mostly a loner. But I have always wished for a group I really belonged to, people I loved being around, was fully comfortable with and Me with, though, it may not exist. But I guess I do notice how the overall group works and what's 'expected' in theory, thus am not at a disadvantage due to lack of seeing or knowing, but rather my disadvantage is that in most cases it's not me at all, I don't agree with it, I simply can't socialize that way, don't relate to the people, etc, thus don't do it.

Where being so dom comes in handy in a huge way though is in the workforce-- basically having a smooth ride because I know who it's ok to say certain things to (who is trustworthy where it won't come back to bite me), who to never say or do something around, who's best buds/engages in ass kissing, and so on. It's people reading at a group level, seeing how individuals interact together and who's associated with whom. What's 'the norm' in the company culture, so easy to know what not to do unless you are ok with potential repercussions, etc. So professionally being so dom is a distinct advantage I think. Not that I ever had any desire to 'climb the ladder', and I never schmooze, but I could have a drama free incident free existence mostly in the workplace.

02-20-2017, 08:59 AM

Carpe Vinum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evolving Transparency

Yes, for me it does.

And I think it's because:
1) I like to delve into self mastery deeply. So I can become quite obsessed with accumulating knowledge that correlates with growth.
.