Dearth of financial flexibility and open roster spots may result in a quiet Nuggets offseason

Although chaos ruled last summer’s Nuggets offseason, this year it may be defined by calm.

Going into the 2014 offseason, the Nuggets have a roster likely to remain loaded up at or near the 15-player maximum. Of their current 15 contracted players, only two are expiring – Jan Vesely and Aaron Brooks. Another two, Darrell Arthur and Nate Robinson, have player options but have both expressed interest in staying with the Nuggets. And Denver will surely hang onto the only remaining player whose 2014-15 salary is not guaranteed. The coaching staff and front office have highly praised Quincy Miller’s progress this season, and will be looking to continue his development.

So if the Nuggets let Vesely and Brooks walk, they will be entering the offseason with only two open roster spots. And if they re-sign either of them (which some fans have been calling for, especially in Vesely’s case), they’ll have even fewer. As the Nuggets enter the draft and free agency period, this will not give general manager Tim Connelly much wiggle room to work with.

Compounding the stuffed roster situation is an array of salary issues. According to ShamSports.com(follow @MarkDeeksNBA), Denver will have over $65.5 million in salary on the books next season, assuming Arthur, Robinson and Miller are all still on board.

The NBA issued new projections for the 2014-15 and 2015-16 salary cap and luxury tax thresholds. The 2014-15 salary cap is now projected to be $63.2 million and the tax level is projected to be $77.0 million.

If the projections hold, this puts the Nuggets just over the cap, and eligible for the $5.3 million non-taxpayer mid-level exception. (They are ineligible for the bi-annual exception, having used it last season to sign Robinson). This points to a probability that with just two open roster spots, the Nuggets will fill one with their first round draft pick, and the other with whomever they sign using the MLE.

The twist, however, is the change in Kenneth Faried’s status since his late-season breakout. It wasn’t long ago when the (now laughable) notion of trading the Manimal for Iman Shumpert seemed at least marginally plausible. He had struggled for much of the season, and it didn’t seem he could be a good fit with Brian Shaw. But after his surge in March and April, there is little doubt that the Nuggets will keep him around, or that he’ll be seeking a contract extension paying around the Lawson/McGee/Gallinari ballpark of $10-12 million per year.

If the Nuggets do intend to keep Faried, and the players expected to return are still around as well, this basically renders it impossible to both extend the full MLE to a free agent and give the Manimal an extension without going over the luxury tax threshold. And if there’s one thing we know about Josh Kroenke and his father, it’s their extreme reluctance to pay the luxury tax.

Adding the $5.3 million MLE to the aforementioned $65.5 million payroll, the Nuggets would be at a bloated $70.8 million – just $6.2 million under the projected luxury limit – when it came time to offer an extension to Faried. And that doesn’t include the addition of their draft pick’s rookie scale contract, which will probably be in the $2 million range. So if they do intend to extend Faried, chances are that they will only use a fraction of the MLE on a small-time free agent, if at all. (Opting for a low cost re-signing of Vesely rather than using the MLE could well wind up being one of their better options in this scenario).

In addition to the MLE, the Nuggets will have three traded player exceptions at their disposal. The largest, worth around $9.9 million, came back in the Andre Iguodala trade and will expire on Jul. 10. Using it, however, raises the same dilemma as the MLE with respect to going over the luxury threshold if Denver extends Faried. The other two won’t expire until Feb. 20, 2015, as the Nuggets got one (worth about $1.7 million) in the Andre Miller trade, and the other (worth about $1.2 million) in the Jordan Hamilton trade prior to this year’s trade deadline. In all likelihood, if any of these are used this offseason, they will only be used to make the salaries work in a multiple player trade, and not as “credit” to acquire new players who will add salary to the payroll.

And of course, the possibility of player trades is the x-factor which could change everything. But here, too, lie problems.

Of that $65.5 in presumed payroll, about $50.5 million (or 77 percent) of it is tied up with Denver’s six highest paid players. It seems safe to assume that Lawson, Gallinari and Mozgov (on the strength of his improvement this season) will not be on the block unless a shockingly great offer is made for them. Of the other three, Wilson Chandler is probably the only one who may plausibly be tradeable, let alone fetch enough value back to make dealing him worthwhile.

JaVale McGee and J.J. Hickson, on the other hand, should prove to be extremely difficult to move. And even if the opportunity arose, given their injuries and the (probably accurate) perception that they’re overpaid, it’s highly unlikely that the Nuggets could get back assets of a high enough quality to make trading them advantageous.

Like Mozgov and Faried, Randy Foye is another player who appears unlikely to be put on the block, especially after his strong finish to the season. Evan Fournier seems to be in more of a gray area – the team seems upbeat about his progress, but it wasn’t exactly impressive enough to warrant passing up a solid trade opportunity. Anthony Randolph – in part due to Vesely’s surprisingly solid play – seems to be the only true odd man out. But good luck getting much back for him than a future second rounder and an open roster spot. Besides, both Fournier and Randolph are owed less than $2 million next season, hardly enough to put much of a dent in the big salary picture.

We’re all in this offseason. So trading [our first round draft] pick is on the table, trading the pick in addition to a player is on the table. We’re going to really push all the chips on the table and try to better our team. I think if you look at how our salaries are set up, and a lot of the guys, you know they’re young, but they’re in their prime. I think it would be unfair to the group of guys we have not to make a real strong play this summer to try to get back to an elite Western Conference level.

Taken at face value, it sounds like he intends for the Nuggets front office to take an aggressive approach this offseason. And who knows? Maybe he’ll pull off the seemingly unattainable good trade for Hickson or McGee, or otherwise find a way to make a move or two which will significantly improve the team.

But given the constraints he’ll have to operate within, it seems much more likely that the roster going into next season will remain mostly intact. The Nuggets will find improvement next season, but probably less through their offseason moves than from the return to health of their injured players, the ongoing development of their youth, and an accelerated learning curve for the players in understanding and executing Shaw’s system.

Joel is a long time Denver Nuggets (and Broncos) fan from Colorado who's been living in Japan since the mid-90s, and blogging about the Nuggets since 2008. You can contact and follow him on Twitter: @denbutsu.

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Yes Joel, the team will improve next season by “understanding and executing” Shaws system better. It’s so complicated and sophisticated these ignorant 20 something’s couldn’t figure it out in 1 season. Shaw is simply a true genius and “his system” is above the ordinary NBA player. The guy is simply a God and if the players would just run his system we would win the NBA championship. Or maybe Shaw could improve his coaching? You left that variable out of your improvement list.

In following sports for 40 years I’ve never heard a head coaches “system” lauded so much. It’s even worse since we’re not quite sure what that system is (it seems to continually change) and it has not proven to work. If this season is any example then his system is a complete disaster!

http://www.roundballminingcompany.com/ JoelRMC

This post isn’t about Shaw’s coaching, and I didn’t praise Shaw in any way whatsoever. You are reading a LOT into what I wrote that just isn’t there at all, and trying to refute an argument I never even made. The point is that improvement is not likely to primarily happen via offseason moves, so they’ll have to find it elsewhere. I have no idea where you’re getting this “Shaw is a god” stuff from. But it’s not from me.

heykyleinsf

further I don’t see how Shaw is even relevant whatsoever to this whole topic. But what are you going to do about certain people who are swallowed up by hate.

Nugman

I apologize if I read too much into it. But I’ve been so frustrated this season hearing how the players don’t know Shaws system, how the players don’t fit Shaws system, how the players aren’t playing hard (even Shaw said this), etc. Then people write on this site what a good job Shaw is doing and I’m just stunned. Shaws performance has been average at best and really below average. If the team hadn’t finished fairly strong he probably deserved a D for the year.

I just wish people would question his coaching and his “system” rather than give him virtually a free pass. All the blame has fallen on the players and injuries. But Shaw deserves a lot of the blame for what’s transpired this season and much of his coaching has been very questionable. Maybe the problem is Shaws system and his coaching, not the players.

It’s amazing I haven’t heard a single discussion about Shaw being fired despite winning only 36 games. How many 36 win coaches get such a free pass? Heck, I’ve heard Jackson is on the hot seat in GS and Woodson may be gone in NY and he won one more game than Shaw. Why does Shaw get such special treatment?

Ckwizard

1+1=2…. 1+?=?… Nugman you are fine in your critique of this year and your perception of events this year is a reasonable given your “lens” of viewing. This year is the “1” in the equations above. If next year is repeated because your view and perception are a reality and not just an “opinion” (lots of people disagree with you rational) then Shaw will be under fire because 1+1=2. Rational people will agree with your assessment and this year will be relevant. Your problem is you operate in 1=1 and any aspect of who we are as individuals can never live up to that standard.

The ? In the above equations is the future performance, while every one knows your position on how you see the future of our favorite team, why does it bother you so much that a majority of fans, press, and Others do not share your perception that the “?” Is a “1”? The “?” is just that undetermined and if you are so sure of the future then doesn’t that translate into some excellent sports wagers. Because if I was so confident of the future to be dislusional to the point of your consistant Sarcasm and Constant Antagonization I would head to Vegas and come away a rich man taking advantage of this abysmal situation that is the Denver nuggets. But hey maybe you are just full of it.

Cullen

This is ridiculous. Nobody is giving Shaw the “free pass” you seem to think. I certainly think there are tons of errors that were made over the course of the year on Shaw’s part. Not starting Mosgov sooner, jamming players into roles that did not fit, etc. etc. etc. BUT everyone is giving him some credit because: 1.) He is a first year coach. I have posted NUMEROUS times on this forum showing the recording of Mr. Jesus (Aka GK in many people’s eyes) and he did not have a winning coaching record until year THREE of his career. 2.) The roster does not really fit his system. He is a defensive minded coach who would rather play an offense more centered around a half court offense, this roster is not one that buckles down D and runs full intricate sets. But sure, Shaw could have ran a much more potent offensive/defensive schemes. I agree with that. 3.) The team saw a lot of improvement by the end of the season. Sure, they struggled mightily and even saw inconsistency later in the season… but there was a lot of growth, too. 4.) There were TONS of injuries, even GK would have choked this year. Gallanari? Gone the whole season. Lawson? Out significant portions of the season. Chandler? Out significant portions of time. McGee? A few games early in the season. If you don’t think injuries had something to do with it, you are really something else.

You, like most Shaw haters, have yet to explain what he really did wrong. You do nothing more than assert that he has.

And using Jackson and Woodson as examples prove my point. Those coaches are in their 3-4 year with tons of talent and limited injuries…so yeah, their lack of performance has warranted the hot seat. Shaw has coached one season with tons of injuries.

It takes years of growth to develop a team under a new system/coach. You are stuck in the sports culture of produce or get fired. If Shaw was fired in one season, it would be the epitome of poor leadership. It takes TIME. I mean, Christ… y’all will give Karl a decade to break past the 1st round once but Shaw is out after a SEASON? Y’all are crazy.

gimpcom187

Stop pretending anyone who sets the record straight when certain writers or posters inaccurately perceive thevprevious 10 years are slurping gk. Its called giving those people a chande to be realistic and hopefully learning something afterthe next few years.

Cullen

I agree that I do that, but it was mainly a defense of Shaw and less of a screw Karl post. And usually people who talk crap on Shaw also slurp GK. Specifically, Nugman does.

Thomas

Most that post here are the fans that the Nuggets front office want – those who accept mediocrity and watch regardless if the product is of quality or not.

Not everyone feels that way. I for one am past the time when I would watch the Nuggets regardless of the product on the court. This team is not fun to watch and it’s ceiling is limited to places I don’t care to go (first round exits). It feels like a waste of time and I will be on the sidelines as a fan until there is change and a sense of direction. Not renewing league pass until then. If I was still in Denver I would certainly not go to games – as a fan I go to watch good basketball and that is not on the table.

I would welcome change of any kind. No one is untouchable. We have few chips that have some trade value, Ty, Gallo (questionable with injury), Faried, Chandler perhaps. Doubtful anyone bites on Mcgee.

I’d try to keep Faried and package Ty and any other players for someone who commands a double team and plays above average defense – ideally a top 20 player. Any other trades should focus on players who can play defense – you just can’t do anything in this league with so many players who are below average on defense.

I think you are conflating two very different things. (And Ckwisard’s “1 + ? = ?” gets at the same point).

From my conversations and dealings with RMC writers and Nuggets fans, I cannot name a single person who has blind faith in Shaw, or undying loyalty to him. What I mostly hear (and I share this view) is the following take on Shaw, which I’ll label #1:

1) Shaw had to deal with a crappy hand this season. He made some mistakes along the way. But he deserves the benefit of the doubt for now, given how badly his roster was struck with injuries, and given that the team he signed on for (even if it was a mistake on his part not to recognize this) wasn’t equipped to execute what he wanted to implement.

Then there’s the take you’re (apparently) arguing against, which I haven’t seen anybody propose, which is:

2) Shaw is a god, Shaw is perfect, Shaw can do no wrong.

And then there’s your take, which from reading dozens of your comments, I do not think unfair to summarize as:

3) Shaw is a horrible coach who has no idea what he’s doing. He’s the worst thing that happened to this team this season, he should be fired immediately, and if he’s not, the team is gonna go straight down the shitter.

I definitely don’t want to unfairly characterize your take on Shaw, so if what I said in #3 differs from it, then by all means please set me straight. But you’ve been flogging the Shaw horse for a long time now, and I don’t think it’s too far off.

And all I would say is this: In my opinion, #1 is the most reasonable stance to adopt at this point, when we (unfortunately) simply don’t have any evidence yet of what Shaw is capable of doing when this team is at full strength.

And that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be criticized when he makes bad decisions. (He should). And that doesn’t mean he’s beyond reproach. (He’s not). It only means that we are, as yet, unable to make a completely informed decision about his coaching abilities because, so far, we have only incomplete information.

You could be right that he will turn out to be a crappy coach. Or, others could be right that he’ll turn out to be pretty damn good. I would only say that there is insufficient evidence on either side, given the chaotic first season he inherited, to make a compelling case either way. And we all will have no choice but to be patient (whether or not we pontificate on either side of the debate) in ultimately learning which way things will shake out.

heykyleinsf

I suppose this payroll situation is Shaw’s fault too…
Please blame all this on him too simpletons..
easy enough.. but this was built by MASAI UJIRI..
you remember him, right?
The guy who had all the class to say “Fxxk Brooklyn”??
Ah.. yeah!!
At this point letting him walk looks pretty good on Joshy.

heykyleinsf

I see Rudy Fernandez is hitting us for $5.5 M
why?

Daniel Winston

I like Masai as a person but several of his decisions are coming back to haunt us now. Is there a reason he wanted out when he did?

heykyleinsf

I’m not going to fault the guy for getting his salary tripled and going back to his roots…
but at the same time.. he didn’t get out when he did.. the opportunity may have never come again. He won EOTY, so that’s kind of a peak. But I do have to wonder about his decisions. Sure he drafted Faried and got a great deal from Melo.. but the rest of his work isn’t looking so good right now.

TomRMC

His rights (and Wesley Person’s rights) are still technically held by
the Nuggets since we were the last NBA team they played for, but they
don’t actually cost anything (no salary, no tax hit). Unless the team drops below the cap, there’s no benefit in renouncing the
rights. In theory, either one of them could actually be signed to a
non-guaranteed deal in order to pad salary in a trade. Or if Rudy
actually tried to return to the NBA, the Nuggets would get first crack
at him since IIRC he would be a restricted free agent.

heykyleinsf

Thanks for that explanation Tom.. Forgot about Wesley.. haven’t heard that name in a while.

Nugman

Masai didn’t hire Shaw so you can’t blame him for that

LBJ

I noticed how Masai turned the raptors around in one year. To be honest Joshy and Timmy have turned the nuggets around in one year also!

Cullen

Yeah, Joshy and Timmy are out of the court playing so well! And Masai has dropped like 20 points and 15 rebounds a game! Yes, Masai has done a pretty good job with Toronto, but their coaching and squad has really stepped up this year. And did Joshy and Timmy go tear all the acl’s on the squad? Nope. And why is there all the hate for Timmy? Again, more skeptic hate with zero explanation. God, must be exhausting to hate for no reason.

Nugman

Have you seen the Nuggets play this season?

LBJ

I just provided 4 reasons, dumbass. Add a fifth – our quality draft last year. Where is Erick Green?

heykyleinsf

I”M DYING TO KNOW WHAT HE DID TO ARRANGE THIS!!
they didn’t have any draft picks and he didn’t bring anyone in that contributed this year..

So tell me.. I’m dying to know.. how Masai Ujiri did a single thing to help that team this year? Much less… single-handedly turn them around as you alluded to…
Let’s hear it!
What happened?
Fill us in!!

Not to mention.. here you go again..
cheering for some other team..
Toronto or Golden State..
while bashing this team.
full time troll

LBJ

He cleared cap space by dealing Gay for depth. He screwed the Knicks by dumping dead weight Bargiani for a first round and two seconds. If you know anything about the NBA (which you don’t) you realize this is better than signing JJ.

heykyleinsf

again..
how .. who .. what..
led to this turnaround?
Who did the EOTY bring in to 180 the Raptors?

Don’t worry..
Answer = Nobody.

Masai had absolutely zero to do with personnel
for that team in any way that impacted this year.

You see..
as simply as you give one guy credit..
you just as simply assume one guy is to blame conversely.

I never named names..
I’m not saying you are a simpleton as a person..
but there’s a lot of air around some of your ideas..
suspended without anything anchoring it.

If you named one single person Masai brought in to help that team this year.. I might buy in to your idea that
“Masai turned the Raptors around in one year”

However.. he did NOTHING.

LBJ

Gay was traded for Patterson, Hayes, Vazquez and Salmons – or in other words the Raptors’ second unit. The Gay trade also let them get Ross in the starting lineup. Perhaps, you remember those 4 kicking our ass in the Pepsi Center – the first time they won in Denver since 2003.
If you don’t think the 2 trades Ujiri made will benefit that franchise – you know even less about the NBA than I thought.

Heisenberg

Ujiri unloaded Bargs awful contract and dealt Gay for solid talent. Toronto’s cap situation is much better and they should be even better next year.

LBJ

The Raptors were 42-22 after the Gay trade – which will make Masai a strong contender for repeating as EoY.

LBJ

Ujiri didn’t sign JJ to a big deal, fail to trade miller for 2 months, make a sign and trade with GSW that helped them far more than us or play the entire season with one post player.

But facts rarely matter to you.

Cullen

We had no leverage in the sign and trade, btw. He was going to GSW no matter what, at least we got Foye out of it. He really became an asset by the end of the year.

LBJ

We could have said no. That would have hosed GSW. The lakers didn’t make a deal with Houston when Howard left – they made them pay the price.

Cullen

I like Foye, though. But I agree, we could have done that…. but I don’t think Iggy made that MUCH OF a difference for them. So, I don’t think it was as one sided as you think.

LBJ

The sign and trade didn’t let them acquire Iggy – it gave them cap space to build a bench.

Had we wanted Foye, we probably could have acquired him for a bag of balls. The Jazz didn’t want him and wanted to create playing time for their young guys (and tank).

heykyleinsf

Just look at the chart if you are ever interested in facts yourself.
I posted that.
Go ahead and look..
or blather on about how Ujiri was so great..
meanwhile.. one post north of yours
the truth and the facts inconveniently await for you

gimpcom187

Uh huh. Name calling again.

heykyleinsf

Birdman was a +28 today, 10 rebounds.
Yeah. the guy the wonderful GK had no use for.
Thank you for your worthless opinions on him anyway.
Yeah. You. You know who you are.
jokers.

gimpcom187

We had this discussion. Your memory of this scenario was false. I provided links to articles. Move on

LBJ

His memory of a lot player scenarios is wrong. He never moves on.

heykyleinsf

you did not prove anything
I was right.
About everything.
you move on

gimpcom187

Yeah you said Birdman had some bad situation in January after a sacramento game and he played a few more games. His last game was March 25. You wondered why they waited so long to amnesty him. Because you don’t know the CBA rules only allow you to amnesty players for a short period of time in July. You indicated it was a bad basketball decision which given they had 3 similar types of players (koufus, Mozgov and Mcgee) it was not. He was untradeable with the investigation going on. You indicated he was let go and then soon after exonerated. Of course if you count 6 months later as “soon after” I guess that is “right” Like I said move on. You were completely wrong.

Michael Gross

isn’t Gallo ‘s salary covered by insurance. And about McGee? that’s 20 mill that counts against the cap but could be used to pay luxury tax. Or will Josh just pocket it.

http://www.roundballminingcompany.com/ JoelRMC

My understanding is that both their injuries were found to be season ending too late in the season for the Nuggets to qualify for injury insurance, so the team has to pay them in full with no compensation from the league. But even if they had gotten some insurance reimbursement, I don’t think that affects the cap holds on the injured players. It gives the team some financial relief, but doesn’t affect how the salaries look on the books. Also, if they had gotten insurance, I don’t think that money would go into Josh’s pockets. I’m pretty sure it would go back into the coffer of the Nuggets organization.

LBJ

I thought that the insurance policy kicks in after the players miss so many games in a season?

heykyleinsf

This is really laid out now..
We planned so much around Iggy staying.
We had to scramble for leftovers after he hung us out to dry.

If you still stick up for that guy..
you just simply can not admit to yourself..
you loved him.. so much.. that you can not admit to yourself..
he screwed you. He screwed this team.
So bad I wonder if Steph Curry put his wife, sister and mother out for him.
I also want to point out how inconsequential he was in that win over LAC.

Iguodala was a bigger mistake than Kenyon Martin.

On one hand.. I’m so glad it wasn’t us that overpaid for that obscenely over rated jerk. On the other.. I’m bitter for how he treated this team.
I like Russell Westbrook more than I like that guy.
I respect Ron Artest more than I respect that guy.

Iggy is a first rate jerk.
Anyone defending him makes them the same thing.

LBJ

Here we go again, mister “swallowed up by hate” is back spewing his garbage about Iggy. Talk about irrational hatred.

heykyleinsf

only difference between us..

you hate the person still with the Nuggets.
I hate the one on another team.

LBJ

Or you hate the guys that led us to 57 wins and I hate the ones that led us to 36.

Shouldn’t you be telling us how great JR Smith is?

gimpcom187

Lol.

Heisenberg

Iggy can actually play defense, something Denver’s guards are unable to do.

heykyleinsf

you know.. that’s what I keep hearing..
that’s what he does.. huh?

then why doesn’t he ever make the all defensive team?
$12M a year.. 20% of the team payroll..
and that’s what this guy supposedly does.

DOES NOT Add UP.

Can you say, “obscenely over-rated?”
I’ll bet you can!
Most over rated player in the NBA

Heisenberg

Because the voting for all defense is popularity driven. Kobe’s been named numerous times even though he was an average defender.

The stats and the eye test both show that Iggy is an elite defender. I agree he isn’t worth $12 million but he’s certainly a solid player.

heykyleinsf

popularity driven?
I’ll go with that..
like better defenders are more popular

I forgot to add another thing..
that guy has single-handledly killed three first round draft picks in the span of one year.
One for us, Two for GSW

Yep.
Obscenely over rated.

Heisenberg

Well Roy Hibbert didn’t make it either but he’s still an elite rim protector. Even Laker fans will admit that some of the Kobe selections were laughable.

Iggy’s damn good on D. Other than Tony Allen and LeBron (when he’s trying, of course) there really isn’t anyone better than Iggy.

gimpcom187

Yeah the defensive awards are often difficult because there aren’t good stats to define defensive value. For instance last year Iggy didn’t make the team despite being the 9th place vote getter for defensive player of the year. Tony Allen, Lebron and Paul george are the wings above him. The year before that the voters had him 7th behind Allen and Lebron on the wings. So we’re talking about 3-4 seasons he has been considered a top 10 defensive player of the year, but only made it onto all-defensive team 1 time. As was said Kobe making it 1st team constantly despite being an average defender for pretty much the whole last decade is part of it (Great offensive player gives effort on defense so he deserves all-defense).

Nugman

I suppose Andre Miller is the one smiling now…..he escaped the Denver disaster and got into the playoffs. NeNe might be happy he got moved too when he looks at the Nuggets now

heykyleinsf

I’m sure he is smiling.
After all.. he got completely away with being a 37 year old man with the temperament of a 12 year old.
Plenty of criminals get away with stuff all the time.
Hurray for them.. and hurray for a 37 year old acting like a 12 year old.
Just because you get away with something…
doesn’t mean you’re anything but lucky.

gimpcom187

That was mature equating a 37 year old being upset that his place on the team was being minimized and he over-reacted to being a criminal. Youre a role model to all of us kyle! You are really bitter about this team not making the playoffs huh.

heykyleinsf

no I’m not.
didn’t expect it with Gallo, Javale, Robinson and a mix of Lawson, Chandler, Hickson out most of the year with a brand new coach.
I never said Miller isn’t a good basketball player.
But only a fool would say he hasn’t got maturity issues.
Cases in point for review..

Throwing the whole team and coach under the bus after losing in the playoffs last year.
Causing a scene in front of 15,000 people and hundreds of thousands more on television by disrespecting his coach.
He threatened to physical harm his GF in 2005, had a restraining order put on him.
He held a grudge against GK for years after his first release from the Nuggets.

Clearly he’s a hot head.
He puts himself above the team.
He’s talented.. but he’s well travelled.. seems obvious why.

gimpcom187

The bulls would rather him on the nugs. I tend to agree he is a minor pain in the ass and has numerous flaws though he is a backup so who doesn’t. having the analogy with a criminal when talking about a person as “bad” leaves the notion that you are indicating or at least relating him to criminals.

LBJ

Andre had a big game tonight! Helps his new team win their first playoff game in 6 year. I thought douche bag in SF said he was washed up?

Richard Pesicka

Watching teams like Cha and Chicago and Portland in the playoffs makes me want to puke. And the Nuggets are gutted and gone. Stick a for it them, because they are not going to come back from this snafu.

Cullen

They ought to just cancel next season! We’re all screwed! I want first round exists again!

Nugman

Better than no playoffs and we may not be seeing those at Pepsi again for a long time

Cullen

We will be a playoff team next year. I am calling it now. Call me crazy, delusional, etc. We will be making the playoffs next year, you drama queens.

Nugman

If Shaws coaching I doubt it, but if you’re right a first round exit will happen and what do you say then?

Cullen

Lol you have yet to explain why his coaching is so bad! His name is not George Karl, that is as much as I have gathered as to why he is bad. And you are so reductionist! My problem is not first round exists in the abstract, it is a decade of first round exists when many time we were the higher seed! That is REPEATED failure.

gimpcom187

Yeah that’s really disingenuous. They were the Higher SEED vs. LAC but had a worse record and LAC Purposely lost late in season to get the nuggets in round 1 (and avoid the Mavs) because they ended up with homecourt advantage. Not to mention that roster was so weak that Greg Buckner and Earl Boykins ended up with the 4th and 5th most minutes in the series for the nuggets. So yes TECHNICALLY they were a higher seed, but no one in their right mind would suggest they were better than the Clippers that season as record (despite LAC throwing games) clearly states. It’s arguments like this why people call Karl haters biased and unreasonable.

2010 Karl wasn’t coaching and they had the exact same record with the Jazz.

2013 GSW (after losing Gallo, Faried played crappy because of injury) and if you understand basketball GSW played much better than their regular season indicated as evidenced by the Spurs series. And again this season GSW without their most important defensive player looks to be really tough out. I guess Doc rivers is a crap coach in your estimation. And of course it is clear that Curry was the best player in that series as he is clearly a top 10 guy and probably the 3rd best offensive player in the league at this point (Durant and Lebron).

It’s been said over and over and over. This team has had the talent to EXPECT to get out of round 1 in 2 playoffs when Karl was coaching (09 and 13). Last year was reasonable prior to the Gallo and Faried injuries, but after that… (and Lawson *&^ the bed too) it was a crap shoot.

Cullen

Sounds like excuses. If we are going to give Karl a lot of second opportunities, why not give Karl them? And if your point is about having the talent to get out of the first round, the argument should be pointed towards Timmy, not Shaw.

gimpcom187

Yeah I was correcting your clearly disingenuous statement. Not making excuses. You framed the conversation around seeding when in fact only once had they lost a series that they lost home court and better record. It’s OK if you don’t want to admit you were being sneaky though.

Look if you wanted Karl gone it’s not because you thought he was a bad coach or even an average one. It was more along the lines of well Im bored of losing in the first round when the talent implies we should be out then. I want the team to exceed the talent like Poppovich or Larry Brown does. Well there are like 5 guys in the league like that. The thought on here last year was Karl was mediocre. Clearly he is not. It’s OK to be wrong and learn something from it. Many on here were wrong and hold on to their delusions. Shaw was unlikely to be better and so far (predictably) has looked average to below average. He had a nice stretch when Lawson carried the team and at the end of the season when their opponents had other agendas (resting stars, tanking) so it is IMPOSSIBLE to define if the nuggets were playing well or just had some opponents who didn’t care.

Cullen

I definitely agree that my hubris definitely gets in the way, in a lot of ways but especially on here. Yeah, I definitely don’t think Karl was a bad coach. Karl was a great coach, a legendary coach in a lot of ways. But, yes, I got tired of first round exists. It is rare to have a coach stick around for a decade and I think it was just disheartening to see another mission failure. Yes, there were a lot reasons that were beyond Karl’s control that torpedoed some playoffs, but he had 9 solid cracks at the playoffs, with many years playing teams we should have beat. Last year was the climax of that. I will admit that yes, GSW played out of their minds and shot an incredulous percentage…. and maybe firing Karl was not the best decision, but I’m glad the leadership was willing to take a risk and try something new.

I also get incredibly frustrated when people who dog on Shaw with SUCH a limited sample. Like I’ve said, few coaches rock it their first year. There was a lot of growth this year and a lot of situations that were beyond his control, IE injuries. Yes, I need to be more realistic about how this team looks moving forward, but I don’t think this squad is that far off from being back where they were next year. A couple bold moves and they could be back, but more likely is pushing to get a 7 seed and get a first round outing for a year or two.

Not a Karl hater, rather someone who just got kinda tired of his lack of delivery in April/May.

I do think there was some reason for optimism, not pronounced pessimism.

gimpcom187

sounds good. I find that a more reasonable take. Shaw went to a higher pace in December and really high pace down the stretch. I will give him credit for adapting to that. I think people trash him more than he deserves. I try to keep him in rational standing (he made some adjustments as the season went on), but that comes off as “pessimistic” with some posters talking about how this season is a much better ending compared to last and ridiculous stuff like that.

Cullen

I will agree to the fact that I took stances that were untenable and said asinine things, but I also think proclamations of being screwed for decades also pretty far off base.

We can’t know how Shaw will turn out over the next few years, we just have to be FANS and stay optimistic and look for positives, otherwise it will be impossible to do the one thing we all have in common: LOVE THE NUGGETS.

Nugman

You must not read this blog much. If you had you’d read all the explanations. But a few are, plays being designed for Moz last shot 3’s, Nate or Brooks in the game to defend last shot 3, JJ and Faried starting together for 60 games, a defensive scheme that simply doesn’t work, no end game substitutions, only 36 wins, berating his players, etc.

Cullen

I haven’t for a few months because college got heavy. Yeah, I generally agree that those are all flaws in his coaching system. I think the Moz threes obviously are poor plays, Nate or Brooks on a last second three are poor defensive choices and the starting lineup blunders were not the best. However, there was logic to defending that lineup in it’s entirety, much like I have been extremist in my opinions, so has critics of Shaw and Hickson. Yeah, Hickson had poor nights… but he also had a lot of strong nights and playing Mosgov off the bench was working. Sure, starting Mosgov was the clear choice for a while, but his choice was defensible. A defensive scheme that does not work seems a little extremist, we have a total of two players who are committed to playing defense night in and night out… so, yeah some of his schemes were night flawless but the given squad does not help. Other than that, I don’t find too many other huge flaws. He is a FIRST YEAR COACH. All small mistakes and he many areas of growth and some good wins near the ned. Overall, I don’t think you can say he is a bad coach. I don’t think you make him blameless either, but he should not be berated like Woodson or Jackson, as you had suggested. Not flawless, but not doomed either.

gimpcom187

Lets see what you say after they likely miss next season too.

Heisenberg

This team was never going anywhere without more talent, anyway. I’d rather suck for a few years and build a solid core than keep losing in the playoffs.

Too bad they aren’t bad enough, though.

Aaron Durkin

I would trade our first round pick for either Harrison Barnes or Thompson in a heart beat. Those guys are athletic and can shoot and even better extremly redundant with iggy on that team. That is the kind of move that needs to happen that will make this team a top 5 out west team again.

Don’t be a person that buys lottery tickets every day hoping to win GO MAKE YOUR OWN MONEY

gimpcom187

We’ve been over the stats (I can’t remember if you were the one who equated the NBA draft to getting hit by lightning). You couldn’t get thomspson for their 1st rounder and Barnes is below average wing at this point who seems to max out at Caron Butler lite. I doubt at 12 they’ll get someone WAY better than Barnes, but you are better off taking that shot.

This team is an all-star from being a top 5-6 team in the west (assuming Shaw becomes an above average coach, which is optimistic though plausible). It’s not NEARLY as close as you think. We’ve gone over the number of all-stars on all the top teams in the west. Denver is 2 all-stars away (obviously if they added Durant or Lebron you could make the contention but I can’t imagine a scenario they would come to the nuggets).

Aaron Durkin

I stand by the fact that last year we where a top 3 team in the NBA and if Gallo does not go down we make a run. The diffrence between that team and this was a ton of injures and the loss of iggy. A 19 year old kid is never going to make a impact for the next few years. If we can trade for a player who is on the brink of being a high end player ( players like dragac, affolo, harden) we can be back in that spot. There is no player in this draft that will help a team for at least 2 years.

Heisenberg

Yeah, guys like LeBron, Melo, Rose, Wade, etc etc never made an impact in their first few seasons……

Aaron Durkin

Ha ha first off there is not one player in this draft that is even close to Melo or LeBron in talant at this stage. once again you are talking 10 players in 15 years that made any real impact in there first few years. The draft is just a crap way to build a team. BTW did you see Harden the other night. Could not guard a cone and with out a ton of bail out calls shoots the ball like crap again. I would take 10 other SG in this league over him.

Heisenberg

Wiggins and Embiid (if he stays healthy) both have superstar potential. Parker, Exum, and Randle should all be solid as well.

But I’m sure OKC regrets getting Westbrook and Durant through the draft. What a couple of mediocre players.

You need a star to win in the NBA, Denver doesn’t have one. Without one they will never go anywhere.

Aaron Durkin

Did you watch Wiggins play this year. He was mediocre at best against college players. Embiid is 19 with back issues he will last 4 years in the league.

Okc when beaten by Memphis ( another team with no ” ESPN” star) will have to trade Westbrook and will be bad for years so yes I am sure they will regret that move.

Heisenberg

Yes, I watched Wiggins. He averaged 17 points and 6 boards, and, at times, was dominant (see his 41 point performance). He certainly wasn’t “mediocre.” Sure he’s inconsistent, but who isn’t at 19? And we have no idea if Embiid is injury prone yet.

Memphis probably won’t beat OKC, but even if they do they have a top 5 center in Gasol, a damn good PF in Randolph and a very good player in Conley. All 3 are better than anyone on Denver’s roster (Ty would be better than Conley if he could play D, but he can’t).

History has shown in the NBA that you need a top 15 player to be a serious title contender. You’re better off having 2 stars and a bunch of role players than having a deeper roster with no all star talent. The only Finals MVP in the past 30 years that wasn’t a top 15 player (at their time) is Chauncey Billups, and he was still damn good. That Pistons team also had a HOF coach and 3 other top 30 players. The Nuggets as is have one borderline all star in Ty (who isn’t even a top 5 PG, let alone a top 15 player). Gallo is decent but we have no idea how good he’ll be. The rest of the team (Faried included) is nowhere near all star caliber, just solid rotational players (in Faried’s case, an OK starter at PF).

Aaron Durkin

He did average 17 but did not average 6 boards and had less then 2 assist per game. If compare him to other high profile SG coming out he looks like a poor mans Wade. Hardly worth screwing up your franchise. Who do you think will be better wiggins or Bennett last years 1 bust. The answer is the teams who did not draft them

Lawson is a way better player then Conley. The Denver system sets Lawson up for failure with all the switching and he does not have the presence in the paint that Conley has. On the off end there is no comparison in the to. My point is the system and team is what makes the griz and spurs good not the players. You see the same thing with the bulls and raptors. Those teams don’t draft high they pick up players and win. The draft does not make great teams

Heisenberg

He averaged 5.9 rebounds, look it up. He doesn’t really look like Wade, more of a Tracy McGrady to me. At least, that’s his ceiling. If that’s what he turns into (not saying he will, but the potential is there) then it’s worth it.

Lawson is not better than Conley. Conley can actually play defense. Lawson’s a bit better offensively but the gap between them is massive regarding defense. Lawson’s just too small to be able to guard guys like Westbrook, Wall, Rose, etc etc. Lawson will always be a liability defensively, no matter what system Denver uses. He’s not going to grow 4 inches.

I’m also not sure why you say the players don’t make them good. Randolph has been good everywhere he’s played. Same with Pau Gasol. You mention the Spurs who have had probably the greatest PF of all time in Duncan. They’ve done a great job developing players but Duncan is the pillar and would have been great anywhere. Rose and Noah were lottery picks for Chicago.

Name one team that won a title without a star. Maybe the 04 Pistons (though, again, they had 3 top 30 players a HOF coach and incredible defense), but that’s it. You need a player that can take over the game.

Aaron Durkin

First off Lawson is 5’11 195 and Conley is 6’ 1 185 so Conley has 2inc but Lawson has 10lbs and is much more fast and quick. The difference in how the two play difference lies more with Lionel Hollins and George Karl then there skill sets. Lawson has never been asked to be a great defender but has been asked to lead the break. The opposite has been asked of Conley so to try and compare their defensive ability’s is impossible. There was a long stretch of Conleys career that he was considered a bust due to the fact he could not shoot. Only time will tell if Lawson can up his defensive game under Shaw but at this stage in there careers Lawson is a better player than Conely.

Yes I know Chad Ford compared him to T Mac but I see a hell of a lot more Michal Kidd Gilchrist in his game. Their size is the same ( both are 6’8 Gilchrist was 20lbs bigger) there stats where similar 17-5-1 to 11-7-1. If you take into account the system that the two programs play it is not unreasonable to think that if wiggens played on Kentucky he would average less points and more reb. Wiggens is a streaky shooter that relies on his athleticism to get baskets or get to the line. You saw in the tournament when you play a team that can match up with his athleticism he was basically worthless. I don’t hate him as a player I just don’t think he will be a great pro and by no means would he be a player to Tank for. He will be a good pro in 3 to 4 years but in the meantime who ever drafts him will be horrible in less they can bring in players ala charlotte bringing in Jefferson.

You keep using the Term star. That is such a worthless concept. You know who is a star in the NBA kyre Irving. Yea he is not even a top 10 PG in the league. You know who should be a star tony parker who just does things to make his team win. You know who was discarded for trash on the Pistons team Chauncey Billups but he made his money in the playoffs. The nuggs have players how have talent and can make a splash in the playoffs. There is no need to tear this team apart and put our trust in some 19 year old kid

Heisenberg

2 inches of height makes a big difference. BTW, I don’t believe Lawson is 5’11”. Probably between 5’9″ and 5’10”. Lawson shows effort on D, but he’s too short and that will never change. It’s hard enough to stop PG’s like Westbrook and Wall, but when you give them a huge height advantage it makes it impossible. Lawson will never be a good defender, get used to it.

You’re reading into college stats way too much. Michael Beasley put up insane numbers in college and didn’t do squat. Wiggins is way better than MKG….He’s got the ability to take over a game, which MKG doesn’t have.

You should also notice that Parker and Billups are (or were in Billups case) surrounded by serious talent. In Parker’s case he had the greatest PF of all time and a HOFer in Ginobili. He also has arguably the greatest coach of all time. Billups had a HOF coach as well along with several other top 30 players. Sorry but Lawson-Gallo-Faried doesn’t compare with Parker-Ginobili-Duncan or Billups-Ben Wallace (who made a huge defensive impact)-Hamilton, along with Sheed and Prince. Detroit also had a top 3 defense.

Heisenberg

Oh, and last year’s team was not top 3. No chance they were beating the Spurs.

gimpcom187

In fact as a technicality they were not a top 3 team as the spurs/OKC/Miami had better records (they “almost” caught the spurs but that was because the spurs had won second place with 4 games to go and lost 3 of 4 with little chance of catching OKC). they were 5th rated with margin of victory. You forgot to mention Faried was hobbled in that series and played very mediocre ball too. Despite some unrealistic people on here the team played a tough series with the warriors with 2 close losses including game 6 with Lawson shooting horrifically.

LBJ

I would deal the pick for Thompson in a heartbeat. I seriously doubt the GSW will ever agree to that.

Native Nugget

Thanks for the update Joel. Until reading this I had been naively hoping for one decent trade in the offseason. I like a lot of players on the roster but would like to see a really strong addition. Mostly because I don’t feel we’re currently constructed for a championship due to lack of defense and not having a true closer. But I’d also like to see the front office make a move that gives me confidence they can do more than fill holes in the roster with mid level players who don’t understand defense.
I understand that sometimes no move is the best move, and I believe we’ll field a talented team next year, but I’d like to see a front office making moves that reflect a “championship or bust” mentality rather than a “we’re patient bargain shoppers with no real plan” mentality.

Andrew

Thanks for laying that out, Joel. This definitely shows the limitations. I’m still hoping they get a big, defending PF or SG in the draft and then trade Chando and whatever scrub necessary to get the other. It will be an interesting offseason.

Thomas

Brian Shaw to the Knicks would be nice, even better if part of the compensation is getting Shumpert.

Van Gundy for head coach.

mike gomez

no thank you to van gundy

Heisenberg

Stan’s a damn good coach. Way better than Shaw. Maybe even better than Karl, but that’s debatable.

gimpcom187

Agreed. I’d probably take Stan over Karl if they got a star offensive player. It depends on roster construction. If you have good offensive creators who will try on defense but aren’t great then Stan. If more defensive oriented then Karl. Stan had a top 3 defense with Jameer Nelson (or skip to my lou) and Hedo Turkoglu playing huge minutes. Not an easy feat even with Howard.

mike gomez

then why isnt he ever consider for coaching job sense the magic?? we cant just bring in a new coach every season, just because he failed guys expectations

Nugman

We should bring in a new coach if the current one isn’t getting done

mike gomez

and were on going to find out till next season, if the was the case most of the top teams in the west will be looking for new coach

gimpcom187

I think its reasonable to give shaw another year. Its not like this is a champioship quality roster. If they end up sub .500 hes gone. Otherwise keep him around for the last year and hopefully tank it.

Nugman

I agree. But shouldn’t there at least be some discussion of the issue in the media? They only won 36 games and Shaw did some really strange things this season. He didn’t show much ability to manage a game.

Heisenberg

He is considered, he’s just waiting for the right opportunity.

mike gomez

really because he hasn’t been in conversation for none. its not about him waiting its about owners not considering him. they rather go with new blood

That’s just from this year and last year there were a few teams interested (76ers were one). If Stan were willing to coach anywhere he’d already have a gig. He went to the Finals with a roster that, outside of Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis, and Hedo Turkoglu (who wasn’t even that great) was pretty much trash.

mike gomez

but you didnt hear much about other team wanting him, like you do his brother. that team that went to the final was pretty good. lewis was an allstar at the time and hedo was one of the best six man.

Heisenberg

Their roster wasn’t better than the Celtics (who, even with KG out, still had Pierce, Allen, and Rondo). Teams absolutely want SVG, he just isn’t going to coach anywhere. It has to be the right team.

Jeff’s been out of coaching for almost 8 years, and he wasn’t even that great of a coach (decent, but SVG is certainly better).

mike gomez

it was better team than boston without kg because they had size. its was just mismatch. with howard,gortat,lewis, and hedo.. then you had alot decent role players that played that well know for their defense. well by the way i see it not of the teams that will be looking for a coach this season have svg in the conversation or even as a rumors

Heisenberg

Gortat only got 11 MPG. In fact Orlando mostly played small outside of Howard and Lewis, as their main guys off the bench were Redick, Pietrus and Courtney Lee.

And the firings are freshly announced. I highly doubt SVG would be interested in the Jazz job anyway, and after what happened with Pat Riley in Miami I don’t think he’d really want the Knicks job either.

LBJ

Agree. But I doubt Joshy and Timmy would be smart enough to pull that one over on Phil!

Nugman

Good point. If Phil did think as highly of Shaw as some people think, then why isn’t he trying to get him as Knicks HC? We’ve heard all season about his championships with Phil as an assistant so he should be going after him, right? Or maybe Phil saw Shaw coach this year

Nugman

Woodson and Corbin fired. Adlemen retires, but rumor was he would be fired. Yet not even a discussion in the Denver media if Shaw should be fired. Maybe, just maybe, he deserves a chance with a healthy roster, but why is his job so secure? Why is there no discussion about getting rid of him? It makes no sense given the drive to win in professional sports

mike gomez

if you notice all those coaches were given multiple chances and failed to meet expectations. they did not hired them and fired them the next year

Cullen

Cross apply the discussion you frankly ignored below. Corbin? 3 years I think. Woodson? Close to three years with ridiculous talent. Adelman? Several years with good talent. Sports culture should not be 1 year of failure and your fired, especially when Shaw was not all dark spots as a coach, he definitely showed big positives and development throughout the season. If you really want our organization to be that trigger happy, then we will be lottery chasers for decades.

Nugman

I’m not necessarily saying Shaw should be fired because he was given a tough hand. But I am wondering why there is no discussion of it in the press. It seems like someone would at least bring the question up. Shaw did some really bizarre things this season that should leave any basketball junkie scratching their head and asking questions about his ability.

Despite the above, I do not agree with your ” big positives and development”. There were way more negatives from Shaw than positives and the development issue is suspect. What little development we saw came at the end of the year when it’s hard to tell if it’s legit. When teams and players have nothing to lose they play loose and better. The true test will come when the games matter again next season. When they mattered this season the team and coach did a nose dive.

heykyleinsf

there’s no discussion about it in the press because the idea to fire Shaw is stupid.

simple as that.

LBJ

Since when do the Knicks have “ridiculous talent”? Tonight Barkley said that team has “a bunch of bums.” JR, Felton, K-Mart and Melo certainly fit the description.

Cullen

A decent coach would lead that team to the playoffs. Melo? Not a bum, not GREAT, but better than every member of the Nuggets. JR? Yeah, not amazing, but can be motivated to play well. The talent the Knicks had was better than a lot of teams and they were in the weakest conference in the NBA.

LBJ

Barkley has also said that Melo should spend more time trying to attract talent to the Knicks instead of figuring out how to bail out on his team (again).
JR Smith is one of the most selfish, worthless idiots playing in the NBA (no team will win jack with this clown on their roster).

Heisenberg

Because Shaw has only been here for one year. If Denver and Shaw suck next year, people will be calling for his job.

Furious_Stylez

The media doesn’t hate Shaw like many on this board do. They understand that coaches need time to learn the job and get handle of the team they have. Have you seen articles about firing the Philly coach, whose record was far worse than Shaw’s? Nope.

I understand that many Nuggets fans want a scapegoat for this bad season, but blaming a rookie coach that dealt with a ton of injuries is not the way to go. He’s part of the reason, but not the sole reason. Name a coach that went to the playoffs in their rookie season of coaching that did not have a Superstar on their roster, had 2 starters out all season, and lost players for long stretches nearly every month of the season. It’s NEVER happened. Why would Shaw be any different? Shaw deserves next season with his expected starters (Lawson, Foye, Gallinari, Faried, and McGee) and go-to bench players (Chandler, Mozgov). If this team is below.500 after 41 games, I’ll help pay for “firebrianshaw.com”.

Heisenberg

Anyone watch the end of that Memphis-OKC game? Refs tried to give it to OKC, thank goodness Memphis won anyway. Some ridiculous officiating.

Nugman

Pop got coach of the year so I guess he will be fired after the playoffs

Heisenberg

Josh and Tim wouldn’t want him anyway.

LBJ

I see 10 coaches got votes for CoY. Incredibly, Shaw was not one of them.

Heisenberg

Yeah the balloting was a bit strange outside the top 3, Scott Brooks got an undeserving 3rd place vote (by Dominique Wilkins, who voted Doc Rivers as COY), along with Mark Jackson. Scott Hastings voted for Hornacek as COY and had Pop 3rd (which is ridiculous, Clifford did a good job but was in no way better than Pop this year). One of the worst offenders was Mike Wilbon who didn’t even have Pop in the top 3!

Pop also has 3 rings and is not chronically going out in the first round, but good try at a joke!

Nugman

Good job NeNe! Nuggets sure could use his muscle and post play. Just think if we still had him, AAA and GK. We’d be in the playoffs!!! Wouldn’t that be fun!

Sam Franke

None of the writers on this site point out that Kenneth and Foye really started to break out when Shaw was forced to make them the main cogs of the offense due to injuries. I liked Faried’s play the last 2 months, but Shaw supposedly started running plays for him when there were no other guys to turn to. When the roster is fully healthy, Kenneth is at best the 3rd option on this team. You really want to give over $10 million/year for that guy? Foye was one of the more pathetic starters in the whole league earlier in the year when we were healthier and reaped the benefits when he became a primary ball handler and more than just a spot-up shooter.

Also want to point out Shaw’s favoritism to veterans like Foye. Eerily similar to GK and Andre. My guess is that whoever we end up drafting will at best get 20 or so minutes off the bench per game.