Didn't read all 16 pages but if anyone may have touched on it, I think one of Ufology's biggest downfalls is that it has fallen prey to a type of
religiosity. That a belief system has been built around it instead of leaning more on facts and common sense.

"Believing" in UFOs is just plain stupid. "I believe in UFO's", what does that even mean? What is there to believe in? An object is either identified
or it isn't.

Creating a belief system for the existence of aliens is dumb too. The math alone will tell anyone with common sense that it is most likely they exist;
there is not a single occurrence of anything in this universe, including intelligent life as proven by our existence. Now whether or not they have
been here or not requires an immense amount of proof, not just anecdotal evidence or the belief that they are or have been here.

Just leave the church out of it and be satisfied with not knowing until irrefutable proof comes about, when it does everyone will know, not believe.

Actually, for some reason it seems to be viewed in even worse of a light than religion. Being religious won't cost you your job and scientific
standing. Even just wanting to investigate UFOs will.

It seems likely that when people say "I believe in UFOs" they mean "I believe UFOs are alien spacecraft." Kind of silly, but oh well.

84% of the world's population are religious. About a third of the world's population are "I believe some old dude with a beard in the clouds created
the universe and made humans in his own image" Christian assuming my data isn't incorrect. What was that you were saying about common sense? I'm not
denying the possibility, but at least there's some evidence that could point towards aliens visiting Earth.
Thankfully, I think most people at this point have accepted the fact that there's no way we alone inhabit this universe.

No, no, NO! You should never be satisfied with not knowing. Yes, leave the church out of it. Yes, leave the political agenda out of it.
Yes, leave the shady backroom practices out of it. Investigate the phenomenon objectively and with an open mind. But be satisfied with not knowing?
That's ridiculous.
(If what you intend by those words is "Don't pre-determine the conclusion" then I would agree with you. I'm responding as if you said "Don't
investigate".)

THOUSANDS of the people who contacted Streiber in the wake of his book had the exact same complaint - the cranium needed to be bigger.

The fact is that anyone who saw that cover, abductee or not, would say that the alien head is not proportionate and thousands more did. I actually
read the book when it came out and thought the head was stupid looking also.

Is your source for these thousands of letters Strieber who wrote the book to begin with? Or maybe your source is yourself? Either way, Strieber has
been less than truthful if not fraudulent . Maybe your next screen name should be iamnotscdfa? Would be less obvious. Besides, you are just coming
off as scdfalite. Boring. Grow a pair.

THOUSANDS of the people who contacted Streiber in the wake of his book had the exact same complaint - the cranium needed to be bigger.

The fact is that anyone who saw that cover, abductee or not, would say that the alien head is not proportionate and thousands more did. I actually
read the book when it came out and thought the head was stupid looking also.

Is your source for these thousands of letters Strieber who wrote the book to begin with? Or maybe your source is yourself? Either way, Strieber has
been less than truthful if not fraudulent . Maybe your next screen name should be iamnotscdfa? Would be less obvious. Besides, you are just coming
off as scdfalite. Boring. Grow a pair.

Oh, you are quite welcome and I do appreciate you editing your response. However, I can assure you that my knowledge and understanding of this topic
is rather fantastic. You see, I have had first hand ufological knowledge since 1966. I was there. Where were you?

No, no, NO! You should never be satisfied with not knowing. Yes, leave the church out of it. Yes, leave the political agenda out of it.
Yes, leave the shady backroom practices out of it. Investigate the phenomenon objectively and with an open mind. But be satisfied with not knowing?
That's ridiculous.
(If what you intend by those words is "Don't pre-determine the conclusion" then I would agree with you. I'm responding as if you said "Don't
investigate".)

Its more, be satisfied with a mundane common explanation for whatever someone experienced rather than leap to the improbable to explain it and be
comfortable with being ingnorant. And yes, investigate but in a bridled methodological manner. Many in this venture have the tendancy to allow their
speculations/imaginations rule their conclusions and are gullible enough from the passion they hold to blindly accept anecdotal evidence as
confirmation of their beliefs. This destroys the investigative process and makes the community as a whole look like loons.

Oh, you are quite welcome and I do appreciate you editing your response. However, I can assure you that my knowledge and understanding of this topic
is rather fantastic. You see, I have had first hand ufological knowledge since 1966. I was there. Where were you?

That's a sentiment I share. However, on the flip side of the coin, there are also many who discount the extraordinary as even being possible in
the first place. Yes, there are people who go into things with the preset conclusion of "It was Aliens", and yes, they are lunatics. There are also
people who go into things with the preset conclusion of "It was literally anything but Aliens" and I would argue they are equally insane. Their
conclusions are different, but their minds are equally closed off to the truth, which could be either of those things, which is to say,
anything.

Anecdotal evidence is still an important part of a proper investigation. There are many, many witnesses with extraordinary credentials, people who
would generally not be doubted under almost any other circumstance (Police officers, Ex-Military, Ex-Government Officials, and so forth. I'm pretty
sure there have even been one or two US Presidents.) While not confirming the nature of the phenomenon itself, it does prove that there is
something there, something worth looking into. But anyone who tries is laughed off the stage, has their career destroyed, or worse.

There are people who tend to quickly point to the cases that have a mundane explanation... Often ignoring the ones that truly deserve attention, the
ones that do not. Accept the possibility. Maybe it was Aliens? I can understand someone saying "Probably wasn't", what truly infuriates me are
the people who say "No, it definitely wasn't."

Personally, my intuition tells me there's something really shady going on in the background. Whether it's actually aliens, or whether it's the
Government (particularly the Military) hiding some tech significantly (not just "a bit", I mean like the difference between an PS4 and a NES) beyond
what's available in the civilian sector I couldn't say. All I know is the fact that I don't know pisses me off.

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
a reply to: Lost_Mind
While not confirming the nature of the phenomenon itself, it does prove that there is something there, something worth looking into. But anyone
who tries is laughed off the stage, has their career destroyed, or worse.

How about J Allen Hynek? He started with Project Bluebook and became convinced there was something unexplainable with UFO sightings. He had access to
the early cases and interviewed many witnesses after the fact. He carried that study beyond Bluebook into his personal life up until his death in
1986. He would again travel the world and interview witnesses or look at any evidence of cases he felt were worthy of study. That's over 40 years of
scientific study from an astrophysicist who didn't fear being ridiculed or losing his job or funding because of his belief. Study from someone that
had the resources and who would have applied scientific method to his investigations. After many decades, how much further did we come to having an
explanation?

Stanton Friedman has been studying the phenomenon for 50+ years. Another scientist that doesn't fear ridicule from the scientific community. Where is
his overwhelming evidence after decades that UFOs are piloted by alien beings?

You can even toss Steven Greer into the mix. Someone who has the resources and more importantly the money to have any physical evidence scientifically
examined. As an example, he did this with the Atacama skeleton. Where is his overwhelming evidence after decades that UFOs are piloted by alien beings
or alien life is visiting Earth?

Here are three examples of the subject being seriously studied over the last 60 years. Three people that would have jumped at the chance of any
evidence anywhere in the world that would prove alien existence. This- "If only the subject was looked at scientifically and seriously..." is another
weak go-to argument by those that believe. Another attempted excuse and diversion from the fact that there hasn't been irrefutable evidence.

Oh, you are quite welcome and I do appreciate you editing your response. However, I can assure you that my knowledge and understanding of this topic
is rather fantastic. You see, I have had first hand ufological knowledge since 1966. I was there. Where were you?

have you had any sinse, I would understand not having a camera at the ready circa 1966.

Oh, you are quite welcome and I do appreciate you editing your response. However, I can assure you that my knowledge and understanding of this topic
is rather fantastic. You see, I have had first hand ufological knowledge since 1966. I was there. Where were you?

have you had any sinse, I would understand not having a camera at the ready circa 1966.

In fact, here's proof that they were genuine, and not jumping on Streiber's bandwagon:

THOUSANDS of the people who contacted Streiber in the wake of his book had the exact same complaint - the cranium needed to be bigger.

That settles that point quite effectively.

That reminds me of the Shaver mysteries.

After that story first hit the news stands Palmer also claimed he was suddenly contacted by thousands of people who had similar encounters with the
Deros and the theory gained a lot of popularity for a while only to eventually peter out.

Does that mean there really was an underground civilization of degenerate Deros torturing and eating humans that for some reason no longer interact
with us? Or was some psychological mechanism involved in this belief?

Oh, you are quite welcome and I do appreciate you editing your response. However, I can assure you that my knowledge and understanding of this topic
is rather fantastic. You see, I have had first hand ufological knowledge since 1966. I was there. Where were you?

have you had any sinse, I would understand not having a camera at the ready circa 1966.

Mine was always handy.

No stars so far but nice try. Ha ha! Brought me out of hiding for that.

have you had any sinse, I would understand not having a camera at the ready circa 1966.

Oh, um yeah, lots....the problem with the cameras is that the alien spaceships dont show up on the photos...because they have advanced
technology or something. ok, ok...i have never actually seen a UFO....or an alien. I have traveled into other dimensions....but that's off topic.

I can understand some of the frustration vented regarding this thread as it provokes a thought that ufology is dieing because there is no actual hard
evidence to support the existence of aliens and their craft other than that of witness testimony.

But the way i see it is that it is the good witness testimonies of which there are so many that are the smoking gun.

It choked me up and angered me to see the sense of hopelessness in that small group of witnesses eyes at the end of the movie, how can anyone deny the
existance of aliens and their craft. When there has been so much reported on it.

Whatever is visiting is obviously far advanced then us. And the acknowledge government stance on the subject as mention by

originally posted by: AceWombat04
…...near the end of the Truman administration the CIA determined that continuing public interest in and reporting of UFOs constituted a potential
national security threat - ostensibly due to possible mass hysteria and the flooding of communications and intel channels. Thus the CIA established a
cursory, four day review of the available evidence by prominent scientists with ties to the military establishment (the Robertson panel,) after which
the NSA mandated that unexplained cases like those described in the above mentioned reports and memos should not be discussed with the public and/or
press, and perhaps most tellingly, that ONLY those cases which could be explained as mundane or the result of hoaxes and psychological issues should
be publicized. In various forms, that policy has been in effect ever since, despite periods of renewed (or at least feigned) interest in being more
forthcoming with the public. (For a time, it was even a crime punishable by imprisonment or fine to release UFO sighting data to the public and press,
despite the study and investigation thereof continuing in earnest behind closed doors.)

will always keep ufology where the governments wants it. As pointed out by many here and as pointed out time and time again in many threads
governments know how to keep secrets and they have the money and resources to do it well.

Infact when it comes to government i like the quote “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.”

It should read “The greatest trick the government ever pulled was convincing the world ufos didn't exist.”

Or even “The greatest trick the elite and government ever pulled was convincing the world they were actually incompetent, and that ufos did not
exist”

They are not by the way, and far far from it.

I often think people are “barking up the wrong tree” when i see protests in the streets, if only they would turn their attention to pressuring
the governments on ET we might actually see some change in the world. If only the attention was drawn more seriously and virally towards the fact that
government lies and conspires with corporations and powerful individuals to hide truths.

I think in a way that protest is happening through the internet but not as fast as we all would like it to happen. But the answer lies with
governments. If they do not want you to know the truth about ufos then ufology will continue as it is, the interest in the subject will never go away
but because of the complex nature of the subject we may never have a definitive answer, and even if for a brief second we found one, then government
will take it away.

I think most people have made up their minds. If you throw out all the obvious rubbish regarding ufology what you're left with is quite scary. The
mysteriousness sort of goes out the window straight away for a new comer to ufology as if they have any sense of the truth they too can see what's
going on. Fools paradise did i hear someone say, in ignorance from someone else, after a short look at the good stuff that's probably where you might
rather stay, and a reason the Alien forum has taken a dive. It's become all too much of a serious subject. And it IS.

It's a pretty chilling to accept that there are creatures out there in space and even on our own planet that a far more intelligent and advanced then
you and i and even more frightening that they abduct you too.

The problem isn't with people like Hynek and Friedman, it's with everyone else. I'm sure you've noticed how many of the witness testimonies
that come from credible sources (mainly government and military) only occur after they've retired. Maybe it's just my incorrect perception,
though. Maybe everyone's actually really accepting if you say you've seen a UFO and won't immediately label you as crazy, or label you as crazy if you
say that "No, it wasn't swamp gas reflecting off of Venus."
And the fact that we don't have an explanation doesn't make you think more should be done to investigate the phenomena? Once again, I'm not
saying aliens, but whatever it is that's causing some of these events implies a fundamental lack of knowledge on our part.

Strictly speaking, no evidence is irrefutable. I could refute gravity, for instance, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. There are people out
there who'll be sticking their fingers into their ears singing "lalalala" until a UFO destroys their house.
I understand the demand for 'physical' evidence but I just can't see it happening. The closest things I can think of off the top of my head are
genuine crop circles (whose proponents are dismissed as loons) and angel hair, which I don't now too much about.

is another weak go-to argument by those that believe. Another attempted excuse and diversion from the fact that there hasn't been irrefutable
evidence.

It doesnt appear like it is going to happen either, still many unexplained cases like Westall, Hudson Valley, Levelland, and Belgium. Unfortunately
these UFOs dont seem to interested in providing irrefutable proof. Personally I think the evidence in several cases leads towards an extraordinary
explanation(that was for you Mirageman - time lapses, HA), but to each his own.

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