On creating shoes with heels for V4: toes zeroed or bent?

I've seen tutorials that show modeling heeled shoes for V4 with the toes at their zeroed position. And yet on examining the geometry of other's heeled shoes, I see that they have done so with the toes bent, albeit with the foot zeroed.

I've gone ahead and modeled a shoe with the toes bent and foot zeroed just because it helps me get the angle right. Visually, at least. ;-P

But, I get the nagging feeling like I'm heading for trouble when it comes to the rigging. I have no idea how the rigging process will adjust and accommodate for this bent toe shoe geometry, for starters.

Am I missing something? Are there points I need to consider when continuing on to the rigging? Did I choose the wrong path?

As always, thanks for any pointers and discussion!

Comments

I've seen tutorials that show modeling heeled shoes for V4 with the toes at their zeroed position. And yet on examining the geometry of other's heeled shoes, I see that they have done so with the toes bent, albeit with the foot zeroed.

I've gone ahead and modeled a shoe with the toes bent and foot zeroed just because it helps me get the angle right. Visually, at least. ;-P

But, I get the nagging feeling like I'm heading for trouble when it comes to the rigging. I have no idea how the rigging process will adjust and accommodate for this bent toe shoe geometry, for starters.

Am I missing something? Are there points I need to consider when continuing on to the rigging? Did I choose the wrong path?

As always, thanks for any pointers and discussion!

I tend to create the .obj to fit the 'raw' .obj that the figure .cr2 is calling for. [always work with a copy 'just in case'] The figure .cr2 is going to then adjust the raw .obj for said figure to whatever position it does. One wants the clothing "fit to" to move the same way.
While the 'zeroed' figure is often the same or very close to the 'raw' .obj for said figure; there are a few quirks esp about the legs on V4.

You'll probably find that where the toes of the shoes were modeled "bent" with the foot zeroed, it was expected that one would be turning off the visibility of the toes on the figure.

I tend to create the .obj to fit the 'raw' .obj that the figure .cr2 is calling for. [always work with a copy 'just in case'] The figure .cr2 is going to then adjust the raw .obj for said figure to whatever position it does. One wants the clothing "fit to" to move the same way.
While the 'zeroed' figure is often the same or very close to the 'raw' .obj for said figure; there are a few quirks esp about the legs on V4.

You'll probably find that where the toes of the shoes were modeled "bent" with the foot zeroed, it was expected that one would be turning off the visibility of the toes on the figure.

Hello again, Patience!

Thanks for the reply!

Hmm, I never thought to use the raw OBJ to model upon (or, a copy of it, as you wisely advise).

Thanks for the heads up on the V4 leg "quirks". I don't don't think I like the sound of that though. %-P

I did another examination on one of the shoe models I looked at before. It's the HighHeels6in1, from the V4 Shoe pack, and I'm probably not understanding the OBJ, which appears to me to be modeled with bent toes.

But, as loaded it on to a zeroed V4, the shoe toes conformed to the zeroed V4 toes (that is, unbent), but with the shoe toes Bent set to 41, Side-side to -3, and Twist to -11. I wonder what is going on here? It seems to have been set up somehow to contort itself to fit the zeroed V4.

That being said, I can see I'd save myself from a lot of confusion by modeling to the raw OBJ, at least as regards the "standard" rigging process, which I think I'm finally getting a handle on.

I do have a lot of stuff spread over the toes and foot of this shoe, however, and that will no doubt complicate the rigging process in and of itself. 8-/

I tend to create the .obj to fit the 'raw' .obj that the figure .cr2 is calling for. [always work with a copy 'just in case'] The figure .cr2 is going to then adjust the raw .obj for said figure to whatever position it does. One wants the clothing "fit to" to move the same way.
While the 'zeroed' figure is often the same or very close to the 'raw' .obj for said figure; there are a few quirks esp about the legs on V4.

You'll probably find that where the toes of the shoes were modeled "bent" with the foot zeroed, it was expected that one would be turning off the visibility of the toes on the figure.

Hello again, Patience!

Thanks for the reply!

Hmm, I never thought to use the raw OBJ to model upon (or, a copy of it, as you wisely advise).

Thanks for the heads up on the V4 leg "quirks". I don't don't think I like the sound of that though. %-P

I did another examination on one of the shoe models I looked at before. It's the HighHeels6in1, from the V4 Shoe pack, and I'm probably not understanding the OBJ, which appears to me to be modeled with bent toes.

But, as loaded it on to a zeroed V4, the shoe toes conformed to the zeroed V4 toes (that is, unbent), but with the shoe toes Bent set to 41, Side-side to -3, and Twist to -11. I wonder what is going on here? It seems to have been set up somehow to contort itself to fit the zeroed V4.

That being said, I can see I'd save myself from a lot of confusion by modeling to the raw OBJ, at least as regards the "standard" rigging process, which I think I'm finally getting a handle on.

I do have a lot of stuff spread over the toes and foot of this shoe, however, and that will no doubt complicate the rigging process in and of itself. 8-/

Those specific Bend, Side-to-Side, and Twist readings got me thinking and prompted me to dig into a CR2 file of a heeled shoe with a text editor and see if I can figure anything out. Not something I normally do, and definitely not something I'm particularly skilled at, but with these specific readings I might be able to track down the part where these are designated and try some trickery in my own CR2.

Those specific Bend, Side-to-Side, and Twist readings got me thinking and prompted me to dig into a CR2 file of a heeled shoe with a text editor and see if I can figure anything out. Not something I normally do, and definitely not something I'm particularly skilled at, but with these specific readings I might be able to track down the part where these are designated and try some trickery in my own CR2.

Well, it's worth a try!

Thanks again, Patience! If I have any success, I'll holler!

Well, it's certainly something most have done, take a peek inside another .cr2 file to see what's what. However it is better to use the joint editor controls to make adjustments on the rigging and recreate your .cr2. If it's a lot of work, I'll make "step saves" by recreating several .cr2s under different names until I get to the desired final stage.

Those specific Bend, Side-to-Side, and Twist readings got me thinking and prompted me to dig into a CR2 file of a heeled shoe with a text editor and see if I can figure anything out. Not something I normally do, and definitely not something I'm particularly skilled at, but with these specific readings I might be able to track down the part where these are designated and try some trickery in my own CR2.

Well, it's worth a try!

Thanks again, Patience! If I have any success, I'll holler!

Well, it's certainly something most have done, take a peek inside another .cr2 file to see what's what. However it is better to use the joint editor controls to make adjustments on the rigging and recreate your .cr2. If it's a lot of work, I'll make "step saves" by recreating several .cr2s under different names until I get to the desired final stage.

I've been staring at the situation all day and still am unsure what to do next. Easier said for me than done! :red:

(With apologies if I'm straying outside the Hexagon forum interests.)

I did find the part of the CR2 where those readings seem to reside. And that's about as clever as I could manage. What I would do with these findings, I just don't know. I was vaguely thinking, I guess, to work backwards somehow. If I rigged the shoe as is, then found the same section (if it's even going to be in this CR2), and inserted these numbers...? I just don't know. I'd just have to try.

Or, it sounds like you're suggesting a more sensible way but I cannot quite grasp the method. Did you mean to rig the shoe as is (my bent-toe shoe OBJ), then from there use the joint editor control to conform it to the raw, straight-toed V4?

Maybe if you could outline the process (if it's not too much trouble), or point me in the direction of the process, I can see what you mean and move forward from there.

Okay. Now I'm still setting up my programs on a new computer so am not quite ready yet to work through all the steps here. But generally speaking, one has the clothing item [any] modeled to the "base .obj file" that the .cr2 for the figures calls for. [legacy method which D/S3 uses] Putting the shoe geometry in YOUR folder under Geometries in the SAME runtime you'll be exporting the .cr2 for the shoes for .... then in D/S3 or 4 [legacy method] ... one can first load in the blank figure .cr2. Then 'copy from selected' from a TINY little arrow drop down menu while on the Skeleton Setup Tab ... different people have different work flows, this is the one that works on my computers ... then in the Geometry area, right click and add in a new geometry - browse to and find your shoes. Then slide the geometry over to replace the geometry for the figure. Remove the unnecessary bones ... now we often left a 'ghost bone' however D/S4 apparently had some issues with ghost bones, so possibly it is better to not use ghost bones anymore. Anyhow, you'll certainly need the foot and toe bones. Do not rename this effort until you're at the last step. For some reason renaming the geometry may cause the Skeleton Setup to cease making requested chances [D/S3]. "Paste to selected figure" and V4's figure should be replaced by the shoes. You can reload another blank V4 to simply have a quick figure to "fit to" the shoes and see if it does indeed do what you want. If yes, then "export out the .cr2" being very careful to select the correct item from the Scene Tab. I use the Poser 7 setting and clothing is a conforming figure. This translates out to a .cr2 file that should work in Poser 7 and more recent editions as well as D/S3 and 4.

Remove the blank V4 and load in a real V4 ... 'fit to' it the shoes; move the feet around abit and see how the shoes move with the feet.

It is at this point the joint editor may come in handy to slightly readjust the joint parameters ON THE SHOES [be very careful, use the Scene Tab to select the shoes otherwise you'll be selecting V4]. When done, export out the shoes .cr2 once again under a new name if you don't wish to overwrite the first edition.

Then make them pretty with whichever colours and/or texture images [from YOUR texture folder under the same Runtime] ... do NOT use 'shaders' nor displacement items. Make the final export out and test it.

Package up all the pieces [geometry, textures, figures, pose/mat files] in a Runtime folder set ... put it into a zip.
Move ALL the items for your creation OUT of your real Runtime folders; unzip the zip and slide that package into your real Runtime. Close/open D/S and load the shoes. If they load without any error messages as to missing textures, congratulations :-)

If/when you do redistribute your creations, a readme for said item is appreciated and even necessary for people as to whether or not the model may be used for commercial renders, etc.

I expect to be rather busy over the next few days so hopefully all this information will help you through the various stages.

Got everything working!. I was able to use the bones rig to bend and twist my bent-toed shoes to fit the blank V4's straightened toes, and saved to a CR2.

I did have to open the CR2 file in a text editor and edit it a bit. Originally, I was limited to 30 "bend" of the toes, and I needed like 50 to match V4's unbent toes. Almost a show-stopper for me! But, I found the left and right toe sections, found the min and max "limits" listings, and changed them from 30 to 50 max. And then all was right in my world!

I would have thought that the shoes would conform and match and snap back to V4's foot and toe bend, side-to-side, and twist settings, no matter what I set them to to compensate, But I was wrong. The shoes took what I set them to, and, I guess, as saved to the CR2, and then did the math after that to conform to V4's feet.

I had a lot of joint editing after that to fix most of the zone shoe vertices that the matrices, copied from the blank V4 model, missed.

Got everything working!. I was able to use the bones rig to bend and twist my bent-toed shoes to fit the blank V4's straightened toes, and saved to a CR2.

I did have to open the CR2 file in a text editor and edit it a bit. Originally, I was limited to 30 "bend" of the toes, and I needed like 50 to match V4's unbent toes. Almost a show-stopper for me! But, I found the left and right toe sections, found the min and max "limits" listings, and changed them from 30 to 50 max. And then all was right in my world!

I would have thought that the shoes would conform and match and snap back to V4's foot and toe bend, side-to-side, and twist settings, no matter what I set them to to compensate, But I was wrong. The shoes took what I set them to, and, I guess, as saved to the CR2, and then did the math after that to conform to V4's feet.

I had a lot of joint editing after that to fix most of the zone shoe vertices that the matrices, copied from the blank V4 model, missed.

Thanks again Patience55!

I forgot where this thread was -- I put some pics up in my clothing thread in Nuts 'N Bolts,