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In an award-winning journalism career spanning nearly three decades, Glenn Kessler has covered foreign policy, economic policy, the White House, Congress, politics, airline safety and Wall Street. He was The Washington Post's chief State Department reporter for nine years, traveling around the world with three different Secretaries of State. Before that, he covered tax and budget policy for The Washington Post and also served as the newspaper's national business editor. More »

Gunsights or surveyor symbols?

By
Glenn Kessler

"We never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights...It's a surveyor's symbol"--Rebecca Mansour, an aide to former Alaska governor Sarah Palin

The assassination attempt of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) has spawned a lot of political finger-pointing, with left-wing bloggers especially taking aim at Palin's map of 20 House Democrats--including Giffords--representing districts won by the GOP presidential ticket who voted for the health care bill. It now turns out that the alleged shooter, Jared Lee Loughner, appears to have had an animus for Giffords dating back to 2007, long before Palin posted the map on her Facebook page last March. So despite media efforts to draw larger meaning from the tragedy, the charge that Palin's map had anything to do with the shooting is bogus. But what about the defense?

The Facts

Military imagery has long been a staple of political rhetoric--and of political journalese. A "campaign" is "waged" against the opponent, with key "targets" of opportunity. The Democratic Leadership Council, for instance, in 2004 published a map titled "Targeting Strategy" describing states won by then President Bush by single digit margins as "behind enemy lines." The DLC put colored bullseyes on each of the nine red states that it said showed promise for a Democratic turnover.

Palin's map is of a similar vein, though it is more personal. The markers on the map, showing the location of the congressional districts, look like the crosshairs of a rifle sight, and it was accompanied by a list of names. The DLC map had bullseyes on states, not people.

Still, did Palin intend these to be gun sights? The design is pretty simple, just two lines crossed in a circle, allowing some on the right to argue that these are surveyor symbols. Palin aide Mansour readily agreed with this notion when she was interviewed Sunday by conservative radio host Tammy Bruce.

But this seems like an after-the-fact excuse.

Would Sarah Palin, known for her love of guns, really instruct an advertising agency to place "surveyor symbols" on her map of political targets? On her March 23 Facebook posting that accompanied the map, Palin wrote: "We'll aim for these races and many others. This is just the first salvo in a fight to elect people across the nation who will bring common sense to Washington."

Certainly, Palin raised no public objection when people, including Giffords, at the time said they thought the map showed gun sights.

"We're on Sarah Palin's Targeted list," Giffords told MSNBC in March, after the door of her Tucson office was smashed after her vote in favor of the health care bill. "But the thing is the way she has it depicted, it has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district and when people do that, they've got to realize there are consequences to that action." Giffords, however, demurred when the interviewer noted that such imagery has long been a staple of politics and asked whether Palin really meant it. "I can't say, I'm not Sarah Palin," Giffords replied.

Similarly, on "The View," co-host Elisabeth Hasselbeck--who campaigned with Palin in 2008--on March 25 labeled the map as "purely despicable." She added: "The names that are next to and being highlighted by those crosshairs, I think it's an abuse of the Second Amendment. I also feel as though every single person on here is a mother, a father, a friend, a brother, a sister, and to take it to this level is--it's disappointing to see this come from the Party, and I would hope that leaders like Sarah Palin would end this."

Finally, here's what Palin herself tweeted on Nov. 4 when the election results came in and all but two of those lawmakers on her list had either quit or been defeated: "Remember months ago "bullseye" icon used 2 target the 20 Obamacare-lovin' incumbent seats? We won 18 out of 20 (90% success rate;T'aint bad)"

The Pinocchio Test

It's impossible to know exactly what Palin had in mind unless correspondence with the mapmaker is ever released. But sometimes perception is reality. It's outrageous to suggest Palin had anything to do with the tragic events in Tucson but it's silly for her aides to claim she did not intend these to be gunsights. They can defend it, or apolgize, but they shouldn't pretend otherwise.

Another cynically opportunistic article by the left leaning media, exploiting a genuine tradegy to condemn a political opponent. The Post should be ashamed of this cynical exploitation and blatant opportunism.

In the future we will communicate with grunts if the media has its way. There are sick people out there and to say that a word, picture or symbol set them off is a bit much. Hmm. Back to the caveman grunts?

You might want to give your little doll a longer nose--we surveyors use nothing that looks like the rifle sight target symbols that nitwit woman palin is using. We hunters however DO use rifle sight cross-hairs that look EXACTLY as palin has depicted on her little map.

palin bears the same responsibility as do the other blowhards like oreilly, beck, limbaugh...every one of the right-wing conservative whack jobs need to be put out of a job QUICKLY. At the very least every individual who reads, watches, or listens to these extremists should consider what they are supporting when they give audience to the media paying the whack-jobs. If you're watching fox "news" -- you are supporting the possibility of the gunman in AZ and others just waiting in the wings--and trust me, they're out there. Scratch a tea-bagger and you have a wing-nut that is surely capable of doing a Tucson.

amazd can you send a link to the article you read, because it must not be this one. Please point out what is untrue or biased in the article? The article clearly states that palin is not to blame for anything that happened, but it's ludicrous to call cross hairs a "surveyor symbol." The FACTS spelled out in the article leave no doubt of that. But don't worry, I understand that in order to swallow the rethuglicon propaganda, one has to embrace an alternate reality, which is the purpose that people like Palin, beck, limbaugh etc offer to mindless sheep who are unable to forumlate rationl, coherent thought without help. George bush hijacked the white house and stole the election in 2000, and rightly so many on the left were upset. If you don't like Obama, that's okay, the right wingers will tell you that he's not a legitimate president because he was born on Zebulon V. the funny thing is tardos like you believe it. pathetic.

I do not believe Mrs. Palin had anything to do with motivating this deranged young man, but the FACT that her team hastily removed these symbols and then made up this absurd lie tells us they knew it was a horrible mistake, especially with the video of Rep. Giffords discussing how she'd been targeted by the Republicans and mentioning Palin's map as one example of crossing the line. Not to mention Giffords's opponent's ad with a military weapon across his lap and the caption "Does this look like a RINO?". Republicans want to own this violent imagery to show how tough they are and thrill their scared white folks base. It's time they accepted the ugly side of this tactic.

It's not a swastika, it's a fylfot. You know, the obscure emblem used in European heraldry. I know, it's an easy mistake to make when it's emblazoned on a flag waved by skinheads at a rally, but there you go.

Palin LIED about the surveyor marks - just as she LIED about death panels.
Palin targets gullible low-information voters and they believed her death panel LIE.
And since 10 of the 20 Democrats on her hit-list received death threats......

Really? She calls it a bull's eye target in her own information yet, this is listed as a "Shading of the truth" I agree she had little to nothing to do with the shooting. But she did put out the map, they were targets, and even her own words say so. Whether it's appropriate is a separate thing from is it factual. Factually, this was a bull's eye. She said it was at the time. Now she says it was not. That is a false statement.

Anyone who believes that a politician, especially THAT one, would knowingly reach out to the world of surveying for imagery probably also tried to tell their parents they weren't hitting their little brother, they were just patting him.

When Sarah Palin allowed her staff to come out and ridiculously suggest that the targets were 'surveyors tools', and also to ridiculously suggest that the graphic was taken down from the website within hours of the shooting because 'the campaign was over and our website guy suggested taking it down'.... that pretty much signalled to me that Palin isn't presidential material.

Allowing her staff to take the fall for her on this is childish and sad.

If Palin ever meant her crosshairs to be anything other than those of a gun, she had plenty of chance to correct that image. Especially when confronted by the charge.

But Sarah Palin's signature salute is two hands raised, fingers making the graphics of guns with triggers cocked. She certainly isn't innocent when it comes to charging up her audience against the Democrats, using the, sometimes subtle, gun reference. Nor are Glen Beck or Rush Limbaugh innocent, or the others who pander to the basest of human weakness, fears and hatreds, including politicians and pundits.

They are all guilty of stirring up the hate, and the violence, when it comes. When you add them all together, and come to this point, you have to hold them responsible as the leaders who consciously chose to play on the baser emotions of the people. Gabriel Giffords, herself, foresaw this. No one challenged her astuteness then. We should pay attention now.

Sarah Palin is an idiot, but 'in the crosshairs' is just a figure of speech. Google it and you'll find it used a million times to refer to a million different issues. All this crap about the political motivations of Jared, the vitrol of political discourse, etc. are just partisan politics. The man was schitzophrenic among other things. He thought algebra tests were an attempt at mind control. Everyone, especially the media, needs to calm down and check their facts. I for one and REALLY tired of all of this political-motivation nonsense. Sarah Palin was no more responsible for these deaths than jumbo jets were responsible for all those birds dying.

How many gun sights has Sarah Palin looked through? Seriously! And how many Surveyor sights has she looked through? Really!

What do you honestly believe? When she say those cross-hairs on the map targeting those districts and she tweeted as to promote the map, DON'T RETREAT - INSTEAD RELOAD, well, tell me, how do you reload a surveyor sight. Sarah Palin, it would seem -- to any reasonable person -- was lying about believing that those were surveyor sights. She brags about shooting and killing publicly. Did she not, at least for a moment, think that those symbols look an inksy winksy bitty like rifle sights? Now really?!

Now the question is why is she lying? Maybe she IS guilty and knows that this will hurt her aspirations to be President so she plays ignorant.

I believe they all the members of the Tea Party know that those were intended to be rifle sights but to not admit fault, the Bible says to confess your part in any conflict
“go and be reconciled to your brother.” (Matthew 5:24). The state of America now has reached new lows. Maybe it is because of the wars, maybe it is because of the economy but people who profess hatred, who put up cross-hair targets and tweet "don't retreat - instead reload," have no place in this country of ours.

Sarah Palin should confess her role in this tragety. Peter urges us: “Turn away from evil and do good. Work hard at living in peace with others.” (1 Peter 3:11). When you work for peace, you are doing what God would do. That’s why God calls peacemakers his children.

"the charge that Palin's map had anything to do with the shooting is bogus."

That statement is what's bogus. The guy may have had an interest in Giffords back in 2007, but he didn't shoot her until 2011. So the question is, what changed in those years. Well, a crosshair with her name, for one.

In the post by GreybirdK1, there is a very good point: "...the FACT that her [Palin's]team hastily removed these symbols and then made up this absurd lie tells us they knew it was a horrible mistake" To this point I would add "and implicitly admitting that it might have been a factor in an attempted assassination." Why should anyone worry about what was intended if they were sure what they said did not have any alleged effect?

As a former land surveyor, let me say, "No, those are NOT surveyor's cross hairs." The cross hairs seen through a surveyor's instrument (theodolite, transit, or level) have "stadia" lines. These are small vertical/horizontal lines that intersect the horizontal/vertical cross hairs equidistant from the center so that the surveyor can estimate distances while looking through the instrument. (If you're interested, the distance read off of a survey rod between the stadia lines x 100 is the distance between the instrument and the survey rod. Unless there is slope involved...)

The Palin cross hairs look just like what I've seen through rifle scopes and not at all like what I've seen through survey instruments.

I think that this was not awarded enough Pinocchios; it should have gotten three. Perhaps the FactChecker should have checked to see what survey instrument crss hairs look like.

It's typical for politicians to spin everything. The assertion about it being "surveyor's symbols" is stupid beyond belief. Just own up to it. This is the same with Obama and the 57 states business, how they put a spin on it to include territories. Who the hell includes the territories? It was obvious that he was about to say 50 states (it's a common phrase--all 50 states), but then tried to correct it by saying forty seven, but instead said fifty seven.

Fact Checker didn't need to go into such lengthy analysis. spike591011 solved the question of fact: "we surveyors use nothing that looks like the rifle sight target symbols that nitwit woman palin is using. We hunters however DO use rifle sight cross-hairs that look EXACTLY as palin has depicted on her little map." The marks aren't surveyor's symbols. Maybe Palin's staff thought they were, but if so they hadn't done enough checking to keep her out of trouble.

"Get in their face" "They bring a knife, we'll bring a gun" Who said these ignorant things? Oh, yeah, The Alien. Then, Gov Machin (D) fires a weapon and says "this is what I'll do". Come on, you ignorant ratface....And I'm a democrat, and this is WHY I will NEVER vote for the dems again....

For anybody who believes that the bullseyes were "surveyors' symbols," I have some awesome beachfront property in Arizona for sale, and I'll give you a really good price. I'll even throw in the Brooklyn Bridge.

Palin (and much of the right wing establishment like Rove, Cheney, etc.) have perfected the "big lie" theory in which you tell a big lie and no matter how much evidence there is against it, you stick with the story and belittle those with the actual facts. They do it well. But it is those of us in the public who are so gullible as to think that because we hear something often enough, it must be true who are at least equaly to blame.

Of course she did not mean surveyors' symbols. Even if they were legitimate surveyors' symbols (and at least one poster who claims to be in the field says they are not), what would they have to do with the ad?

The making up of the surveyor story is about as about as honest as Huey Long sending aids to the almanac to find an excuse for a holiday so he could close the banks thus leading to his whole state in 1933 celebrating the 16th anniversary of severing relations with Germany in 1917! Politicians can always come up with something.

Add to that the fact that it is taken down right after the shootings in AZ because the election is over (it took her 2 months to realize that?) and I think we have someone who is lying to us.

Long was Democrat and Palin is a Republican so I am not saying one party has a monopoly. But I am personally insulted by anyone who thinks I am so stupid as to fall for things like this. This has nothing to do with cause and effect of the shooting, but everything to do with integrity.

Ok, the argument here is not whether Palin caused this to happen, but simply whether the symbols on the map are cross hairs. The answer are, yes, these are cross hairs. Yet those on the right will cry and whine that this is leftist media. This is simply the truth as the sky is blue. But then if you talk to any Palinite, they will claim the sky is made out of Pizza if Palin says so. You people are completely nuts.

One pinnochio is way too lenient - you can run a full page ad of those guys on this lie. Nice to hear ole Tammy Bruce (who?) prod that stammering Palin aide with the wingnut official response - surveyors symbols. And after all that, then to take it down - kinda throws the defense out of the window, huh, morons? And now, like roaches in the run down GOP hotel, all the minions assemble on mainstream websites to either claim that they were surveyors symbols, comb through the President's comments to make some lame comparison, or to whine about how mean everyone is to them. No, don't take time out of your day to think about the dead and injured - just worry about the delicate feelings of America's Princess Caribou Barbie. Talk about a cult mentality!

The shooter probably never even heard of Sarah Palin. For most people, everytime they see crosshairs the first thing than naturally comes to mind is landscaping view finders or whatever. Sarah should go on with here hateful, snarky comments unabated.

Like the blogger said, sometimes perception is reality. Palin was just having fun with her newly found wealth, which sometimes causes people to become insensitive to others. She had every opportunity to take-down that map. But, since she does READ and watches only Faux News, it's understandable why she missed the memo. She still has a chance at redemption. Like, hop a plane to Arizona just to make an appearance, that is, give the "perception" that she cares.

Don't you think most people would feel TERRIBLE if they had put a bullseye (surveyor's symbol) on someone's name and that person got shot through the head? I wouldn't try to rationalize my bullseye or call it by a different name. I would just feel sick and embarrassed. Forget cause and effect. How about civility, good manners, even empathy? Put yourself in someone else's shoes, just for a minute. Have you lost your humanity? Did you ever have it in the first place? Lives have been lost; other lives hang in the balance, and your main concern is defending your bullseye/surveyor's symbol?

I don't think Palin had anything to do with this shooting. But I believe she should take this opportunity to become aware of how influential a public figure can be and realize that the real basis for settling differences is through calm discourse, not silly violent imagery.

People have been suggesting she clean up her word choices since the "palling around with terrorists" days and it hasn't helped yet, but perhaps this time.... oh, that's right. She's lying and saying these were surveying symbols. Well, perhaps next time.

The media, in its liberal bias, has made the all time biggest factual leap:

i.e. This shooter saw Sarah Palin's graphic (unproven), was motivated to violence by it (unproven), and decided to shoot nine people, including the congresswoman, because of it (unproven, not a shred of evidence.)

How about this: the guy was a crazed nutcase who, like John Hinckley, got obsessed with a public figure and ended up shooting people.

I saw copies of Tweets Sarah Palin sent at the time referring to the symbols as "bullseyes." I'd be more comfortable if she had just 'fessed up, said, "We made a mistake. We won't do it again," than I am with her trying to weasle out of the whole thing.

The fact that the Post continues to rail on this is evidence of the left's insanity.

This level of political correctness is beyond nuts - it is just as insane as the nut that shot those people. Worse yet, it is being put out there by journalists that try to present themselves as unbiased and intelligent.

"The Democratic Leadership Council, for instance, in 2004 published a map titled "Targeting Strategy" describing states won by then President Bush by single digit margins as "behind enemy lines." "

----------------------

Are you really going to try and draw a distinction between the two political parties on this?

Really?

The fact is that this kind of terminology is common in political campaigns, and we all know it.

There are many political hacks out there trying to turn this tragedy into some kind of political advantage. Like when Olbermann spoke out against Palin and Beck in the middle of a rant the other night.

To use a tragedy for political gain is shameless, but we all realize that partisan talk show hosts have no shame.

I think those "cross hairs" are tiny Christian crosses. Sarah Palin was invoking blessings on people in Congress who were involved in difficult contests. She determined who was having difficult contests by doing surveys. Sarah is a political surveyor.

It seems to me that the only thing that Sarah Palin is guilty of is encouraging millions of ordinary citizens to participate more actively in the peaceful act of voting in an election. She is not even guilty of creating some fringe movement. She urged people to work within the existing system including the existing parties. Blaming her for this tragedy is obscene.

It might be a very high bar to cross, but I think Sarah Palin's former aide saying the targeted sites on her map were "surveyor symbols" and not gun sights is the most stupid thing I have heard yet from the Palin camp. And, as I mentioned, what a high bar that is!!!

As far as the Daily Kos is concerned, I can't find any graphical bullseye on any photos of any congress people in your source. The only graphical bullseye is the one you photoshopped on your own blog. I did find the words "bulls eye" used to describe political races, but that doesn't connotate gun violence the same way that the image of a gun sight does. Target, bulls eye, terms such as these describe any manner of goals reached by any sort of means. Violence is not implied there. Gunsights on the other hand are a specific type of bulls eye and definitely connotate the use of violence.

Another cynically opportunistic article by the left leaning media, exploiting a genuine tradegy to condemn a political opponent. The Post should be ashamed of this cynical exploitation and blatant opportunism.

Posted by: amazd | January 11, 2011 9:08 AM
--------------------------------------------
Where in this article does the reporter assert that Palin's use of crosshairs inspired the Arizona shooter? In the opening sentence of the article, the reporter very clearly points out that many left/liberal bloggers have asserted that there is a cause and effect. The reporter is merely responding to the Palin campaigns' response that these are surveyor symbols. That's it.

Why LIE about it??? They were gun sights, it's not an uncommon tactical metaphor. The Palin LIE is what really disturbs me. Can she be trusted? What other LIES has Palin told? Show some leadership Palin, admit the rhetoric is toxic and join others in an agreement to be more civil.

The Republican rhetoric of taking the country back, second amendment solutions, putting opponents in gun cross hairs, reloading, presenting the President as foreign, illegitimate and Muslim, stating over and over that citizens' rights are being stolen by the government, that the constitution is being trampled by Obama, that gun rights are at risk, that Democrats are Nazis/Communists that are taking over the nation by force certainly affects those that are already paranoid and less healthy in the population.

It puts healthy, ordinary, uninformed citizens on a sense of constant alert. It would almost make anyone that believes the Republicans more paranoid, angry and militant. It would be the patriotic thing to do to take action if the nation was at such terrible risk from Democrats and President Obama. Some citizens have attacked and threatened elected officials and their offices.

This is not just a call to go peacefully to the polls and make a choice.

That Palin aide should be fired. And who needs an 'aide' if you re not a politician? I digress...Palin and Co. surround themselves in an air of stupidity, sprinkled with righteousness and typical right wing contempt=arrogance for everyone not like them. "surveyor's symbols" What were they "surveying"? I know, make sh*t up as you go along, that ll show em'!

I beg any rightwinger to explain how those are surveyor's symbols, and not gunsights, especially to SOMEONE WHO IS AN RLS. If you know what an RLS is, than you know what surveyors symbols (if they truly do exist) are.

If, as former Governor Palin's spokesperson claims, the crosshairs are in fact the view from a surveyor's measurement instrument and by inference appropriate "speech", then why did that page become a "server error" one hour after the shooting and then the site taken down completely?

If it's appropriate "speech", what is the former Governor afraid of? Does she think that the world doesn't know this page existed? Does she think that denying it's existance and intention now will change the fact that she did it, supported it's supposition and thought it appropriate "speech"?

Hard to believe that she thinks we're more naive than she is. Let tne facts speak for themselves: she said it and if she's not ashamed of it (and any sane person would be ashamed of it), put it back up on the site for the world to see. This is the kind of Christian faith apparently she practices and her demonstration of family values. I'm certainly glad I don't belong to that Church, if one can call it that.

A comparison of the response of the Palin staffer with Palin's own statements using words like "aim" or "salvo", with the experienced surveyor's statement that the symbols are not from that type of work, prove that the staffer has constructed a stupid lie. The fact that she could do this while victims are dead or struggling to stay alive illuminates the inhumanity of Sarah Palin and of that staffer. Her supporters here appear to share that inhumanity.

The "Democratic" posts about doing away with this, and limiting that, and making this a Federal crime, and on and on and on could have easily come from a book called HOW TO BE A FASCIST IN TEN EASY LESSONS. Democrats, Leftist, Socialists, STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THIS COUNTRY. IT'S THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO RUIN IT WITH YOUR IDIOTIC SOCIALIST AGENDA!

This sentence is the most patethetic, "facts-be-damned" pile of horsehockey I've ever read: "A "campaign" is "waged" against the opponent, with key "targets" of opportunity."

What on earth are you talking about? Political campaigns are "run," not "waged." And no one ever in the history of the planet has said "key 'targets' of opportunity" in reference to a political campaign.

I know it's Tuesdsay and you needed a story, but please, at least pretend to put some thought into it next time.

The Federal government "makes" us all pay taxes, pay social security for our future and pay for disability insurance... nothing new. So now they want to "make us" pay for our own and each others' health care. This is just more of the same, but the people who showed up at Giffords' office displaying guns as protest were not advocating for the right to bear arms-- they were obviously telling her that they reserved the right to go after her and any government official with guns, with death, if they didn't back down on the reforms. That's how I would interpret it, as intimidation backed up with the threat of revolution. Unfortunately, I wonder how many of those particular folks are NOT saddened by this tragedy? Either we govern by ballots, or we govern by bullets, but it can't be both ways, one will give way to the other. I vote for votes... if my vote means anything anymore...

As with so many things in politics, the big thing is not the actual act, but the coverup. The author does not say that Mrs. Palin caused the shooting. People who are attacking that point are just attacking an easy straw man. Similarly those who argue the Democrats have done the same thing (most likely true) sound like the little kids whose argument is always "he did it too." To me the point is the denial that she used cross hairs and the claim that they are surveyors' symbols. This is not only an after the fact coverup and lie, but then one questions why. If there is nothing about which one should feel guilty, then why lie?

Whether or not the shooter was influenced by Palin we may never know. One thing for sure is that if he did not have a gun, he would not have killed 6 people and wounded others. I do not care much what Palin had done with targets, but if she is really sincere, I want to see her show more courage than most Democrats or Republicans and come out in favor of MUCH stricter gun laws.

No rhetoric, no parroting NRA talking points, just plain we have to clamp down on all these people carrying guns -- not hunting guns or the like, but guns whose only purpose is exactly what this one was used for. That would make me change my attitude to Palin and finally have some respect for her. She has many followers -- she could have a lot more influence than most of us. If she had a little courage in this area, it would go a long way towards showing she really is sorry about what happened far more than words about surveyors. But if she wants to kowtow to the NRA lobby, that too will tell me something about her as a person who lets others do her thinking for her.

As we take Palin to task for her map, let us not forget that the Democrats also used a map with red and white bullseyes over targeted districts. Fair is fair...if Palin's map was beyond the pale then the Democrat's map must be also as the symbolism is the same.

So, either my nephew's rifle also serves as a surveyor's tool or my buddy who's a surveyor can reload that funny tool on a tripod that he uses when he's working? One Pinocchio? You do Jiminy Cricket a disservice...

>>>the charge that Palin's map had anything to do with the shooting is bogus.

Just because he had a vendetta against her in 2007 before Palin's map was done doesn't mean he didn't see it and it couldn't have encouraged him to go further with his plan. Lots of logic flaws in this article.

Words & imagery have meaning people, we all need to be more aware of that fact because you never know what might push the next nutjob to do something like this.

You got to love politicians. Survey symbols? What jokesters. Just shows that when you can call them out, they can reward you with really stupid, and sometimes hilarious, answers.

Obviously, Palin's intention was not to have physical attacks, but it's at her own political risk that she chooses to essentially shout out guns and targets in her statements and graphics. It's no longer cute (as it probably was to some of her followers) when one of her "targets" is, in fact, made a target by some nut.

As a conservative Republican, I'm tired of being called a 'liar', a 'racist', a 'bigot', 'an NRA loving Nazi', 'fearful and ignorant', or any of the other examples of 'hate speech' which spewed forth continuously from the liberal community during the previous election, and all day yesterday from various quarters including top Democratic politicians and progressive/liberal media outlets.

Hypocrite-in-chief was Sheriff Dupnik, who's hateful rant directed at those of us who oppose the government take-over of the health care industry, and the relentless hiring of marginally competent bureaucrats who are paid twice what their fully-competent counterparts in the private sector receive (400,000 additional since Mr. Obama took office.)

The factual realities fly in the face of these angry Leftists:

Since it turns out Mr. Loughner had to pass an FBI background check in order to purchase his handgun, liberals can't complain that it's too easy for criminals to get them. On the other hand, since Mr. Loughner had already accumulated a record of red-flags known to law-enforcement, the fact that he passed the background check leads to the inescapable conclusion that hiring more government bureaucrats to protect us from people like Loughner is an exercise in futility. Why? Because people with inflated salaries, fat benefit packages, and a union which makes it impossible to fire them, tend not to worry too much about the quality of their day-to-day work-product. Showing up is about all that's required of them. (God forbid they should be required to produce something of value, or be fired, as is customary in the private sector.)

As for Sheriff Dupnik, as more facts emerge, one has to wonder if he spent more time thinking about doing his job as Sheriff, than questioning the right of voters to speak out against a radical socialist President, and his like-minded supporters in Congress, the six people Mr. Loughner killed might be alive today.

The most outrageous irony is that Sheriff Dupnik (as well as numerous other liberals who have politicized this national tragedy), have all but called for the repeal of the First Amendment, at least as it applies to those who oppose them. Maybe they should go back and review the video of a female Democratic member of Congress, who read that Amendment on January 6th, 2011:

Deep in my heart I have always known Sarah was no gun toting, cruel, heartless, venom squirting wench. She doesn't kill wolves from helicopters. She is helping mark their location for conservation using a surveyors scope, not a gun silly. She re-loads minutes on her GO phone that she purchased at WalMart (not the one that sold the bullets). She uses lots of minutes tweeting her peeps with all sorts folksy banter that makes us feel good. You-betcha. As a devote christian, reality show star, short-sheeted governor and FOX mouth piece, she will certainly do the upstanding thing. Click-click.

This is despicable that this rag of a newspaper and idiotic reporter would make a correlation between Sarah Palin and this deranged lunatic. What a lame and immoral attempt to link politics to lunacy. Truly a sign of desperation by a disgruntled far left nit wit trying to politicize craziness; meanwhile the likes of this reporter were the first ones to report that Major Nadal Hassan was deranged and not acting out Islamist terrorism. People that attribute this tradegy to politics are truly the problem in this country.

These are simply Topographic map symbols used to mark a spot on a map. Any argument that these symbols resemble the cross hairs in a rifle sight goes out the window when one considers that it would be impossible for the cross hairs in any scope to extend beyond the edges of the lens itself.

Let's see.... Those look *exactly* like the symbols on my GPS for identifying locations. OMG! Google Maps and Garmin are involved in your conspiracy! At some point, a symbol is just a symbol. Hasn't the political correct nonsense pushed by the "progressives" caused enough harm? They are the twits that made it all but impossible to force mentally unstable individuals into treatment. Then, when those individuals cause harm, like the Arizona nut bag, they dodge their responsibility for their actions and blame someone, something, else.

Despite all the barking and braying from the hysterical left, the American public knows this thing in Tucson was the act of a nutjob who had nothing to do with those who support smaller, less intrusive government. Ironic that the left's answer is more laws and suppression of free speech, as long as it's the free speech of their opponents.

Despite all the barking and braying from the hysterical left, the American public knows this thing in Tucson was the act of a nutjob who had nothing to do with those who support smaller, less intrusive government. Ironic that the left's answer is more laws and suppression of free speech, as long as it's the free speech of their opponents.

I don't completely understand why so many people are rushing to defend the use of crosshairs and violent rhetoric in politics.

Was the map or Palin in any way responsible for this tragedy? Of course not.

But does that mean that there should be no conversation at all about toning down the rhetoric?

If a video-game, or movie, or heavy-metal music were somehow thought to have contributed (not caused, but contributed) to the actions of a mad-man like this, then there would be protests, NC-17 labels, and people doing everything possible to shield their children from the potentially harmful message.

But politicians should get a pass to say whatever they want in whatever language they choose?

Both sides need to tone it down. Politiicans and party-leaders should actually lead by working to elevate the conversation. If all they choose to instead rely on cheap slogans and distasteful rhetoric then they aren't true leaders.

Own it and then move on Sarah. You can make a mea culpa and at least move on with a shred of dignity, but prevaricating on this rifle site is not how to do it. Any gun owner knows exactly what they're looking at; whether or not it was responsible for Tucson, it was despicable and should have been beneath you.

I think a lot of folks here are missing the point. Let me put it in perspective. I just had to legally evict a housemate. Why? Because he lied, stole, broke things, was loud, spoke offensively and didn't pay his bills. Yet, he had a nice smile. I tolerated a lot of stuff for a lone time, but finally, he kicked my door over something that he had completely made up in his head. He then lied about how the hole had gotten there, and finally, my other housemate explained this to me. This door had recently been replaced because some other housemate, before I had moved in, had also damaged it. This was the STRAW that broke the camel's back. This was the moment we decided: he needs to be evicted. Same logic applies here: it's not the odious words (which are protected by free speech), or the the violent imagery (which was roundly denounced the day it came out months ago), or the "gun parties" where Rethuglicans talk about shooting mexicans. NO. It is someone LYING about what they were saying, when we all KNEW that was what they were saying and they DEFENDED this sort of language earlier! It's the DISHONESTY of the response concerning the MEANING of the crosshair symbols. It shows that YOU CAN'T TRUST PALIN'S PEOPLE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH TO YOU IN A CRUNCH. How is it you Rethuglitards can't see that that is the issue at this point?????

"We never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights...It's a surveyor's symbol" --Rebecca Mansour, an aide to former Alaska governor Sarah Palin

Yeah right, now comes the damage control maneuver.

I blame both left and right for the escalating rethoric in the recent months but let's not forget that suggestive phrases intimately linked to firearms started with the far-right group Tea Party (remember those bozos walking around DC with automatic weapons?)and happily followed by the GOP stablishment (yeah, you too Sarah Palin).

Now, for the sake of our own nation, let's stop this non-sense right now before anybody else get killed and before other mentally undeveloped individuals anoint themselves as "patriots" or "saviors".

If the WaPo writers believe that the use of crosshairs motivates people to commit violent, criminal acts, they should also highlight the use of such symbols by the Democratic Party. The DCCC used target symbols on a map of the US when discussing the 2004 elections, the 2008 elections, and the stimulus, to name a few: http://www.verumserum.com/?p=13647 To single out one political party, without commenting on the other, smacks of hypocrisy, and is violative of any type of journolistic ethics.

SURVEROR SYMBOL? Oh, PLEASE! I'm so SICK of some slick B.S. artist (the columnist comes to mind as just another one) as though we're all STUPID! It's JUST what we all know it is, and it was NOT a freaking SURVEYOR'S SYMBOL! It WAS an irresponsible,
highly suggestive, inflammatory inference perpetuated by an irresponsible and genuinely deluded 2012 presidential candidate.

Fact checker would give a lot more Pinocchio's if fact checker checked the facts. What about the tweet that directed people to the map on the web in the first place that told folks to "RELOAD!" Surveyor symbols? Come on! Palin's constant mendacity is amazing. Why not just say it was a campaign and I used strong language and I didn't cause anybody to shoot anybody? But lying about it is pathetic.

I know of no crosshairs that extend beyond the circumference of the scope. It would be a pretty neat trick if they did. In addtion, crosshairs typically include tick marks on the lines.

If the WaPo "fact checkers" actually did some "fact checking" they might have come across the USGS website to obtain the Topographic Map Symbols document that lists Control Data and Monuments. There, they might (and that's a big might for the WaPo's obviously pitiful research ability) have found the symbol for principal point.

In a good COMMUNIST and SOCIALIST country like ours is becoming we must force the right wing people like Glen Beck, Sara Palin, and others to pay. They should go to prison. They caused this. No way is it the fault of the left wing socialist nut jobs that are on MSNBC.

Continue to allow families in California who are on the government payroll to live great lifestyles while taxpayers suffer. Isn't communism great?

I think it is perfectly clear that the WaPo is NOT blaming Sarah Palin in any way, shape or form, for the violence. They made it perfectly clear that such assertions are stupid. And any Democratic politician who criticizes that graphic is similarly stupid.

Sarah Palin had no reason to apologize for that graphic in any way, shape or form. But the WaPo is ALSO correct that for her to claim that those are "surveyor" symbols is extremely unlikely.

One other thing I would point out: she was not "targeting" specific individuals, she was targeting districts. I'd feel differently if she'd shown a graphic of a target crosshairs on a photo of Rep. Gifford, because that makes it too personal. (Kind of like when the extreme anti-abortion fringe shows webpages with target crosshairs over photos of abortion doctors, and lists their home addresses, and then updates the website when a doctor gets killed. THAT's creepy. What Palin did isn't, unless she was planning on blowing up the entire Nth Congressional District.)

The Opinion failed to mention that when Palin Tweeted "Don't retreat, instead- RELOAD" after posting her map, she meant reload the batteries of the total station transit. It is an insult to suggest that she meant anything other than gun sights. Man up Sarah.

Of course the graphics are "targets", not surveyor alignment ticks. But so what if it is? Anyone who is troubled by the choice of graphics is either a partisan with a political agenda or someone who takes things far too seriously.

This is not to belittle the argument or issue that extremist partisan attacks have to stop and that psychopathic murderers like Loughner might be fueled by such rhetoric. But no matter what you do, a psychopathic murderer is going to do what they do, so trying to argue that there is a direct link is only an issue to those who AREN'T insane.

I've come to the conclusion that the only issue that really matters is the extremist rhetoric needs to be toned down. Not because of Loughner, not because of Palin, but because it's unproductive no matter the party that spews the venom. Moderates in both parties need to step up and speak out and condemn extremist rhetoric on both sides - if only so the actual issues can be discussed in a more calm manner leading to a faster and more productive solution or compromise.

All the rest of this is media fodder and utterly silly. we should all have better things to do than discuss graphics or try to establish links to crazy gunman.

I love my country too..but we need to look at some facts and be honest with ourselves.

Preventable Deaths per 100,000 Pop - US rank 14th in the world.
HEALTHY LIFE EXPECTANCY - rank 24th in world
Lowest murder rates - US ranked 78th in the world
Prison Population and Prisoners per 100,000 We are ranked #1 in the world

Infant mortality - lowest to highest - we rank 33rd.

HEalthcare The United States ranks 37th with 51 million uninsured.

And there are many other areas where we rank terribly.

And if you are not amoing the rich in country, i;e. make over $60k per year, then name just one thing that the Republicans have done for you?

The above is an interesting link which shows pictures of surveyor symbols. Sure enough, the symbols on Palin's map are surveyor symbols. Granted, I thought they were symbolic crosshairs, myself, because I am much more familiar with guns than I am with surveying. Also, the icons used by surveyors also happen to be very similar to the crosshairs most first-person shooter video games use. But, not being a surveyor, I guess that's an easy mistake to make... War imagery has always been used in politics, just as it has in business and in everyday life. War is a major part of the human condition, and it's perfectly normal that much of our language uses military verbiage. Now, you can debate the effect that has on how we conduct politics or business, but you can't single out any one group for using the terminology.

The other issue is whether the two are related. They aren't. Make two separate mental containers. In one, place the incident wherein a raving loon managed to acquire a pistol, extended mag and ammunition (eventually), and used these to perpetrate a horrendous crime. In the other, place the current debate over vitriol in political discourse. If you genuinely think that the shooter, a person who believes that the government is engaged in a mind-control conspiracy through the use of grammar, was motivated by political considerations, you probably voted for Obama.

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Seriously, though, this guy is a howling madman, and there isn't anything to indicate this guy ever even visited Palin's webpage, or Daily Kos (who mentioned placing "bullseyes" on the Senator's district). Before you rush to blame the actions of an irrational nut on conservatives, turn off MSNBC, log off Huffpost, and actually think it through.

Palin knows exactly what she's doing. Beck, Limbaugh, they all know exactly what they're doing. They present very emotional arguments laced with sophistry. They thrive on this - it is the foundation of their existence. Each of their arguments and assertions can be torn apart intellectually. But they are genius at feeding the most gullible citizens of our country exactly what they want to be fed.

Of course only an idiot like the shooter would pull the trigger like he did. But the language is carefully chosen and intended to be inflammatory.

Gun ownership? Yes! But it is a privilege and should be done responsibly. For example: One should never ever aim a gun at his friends face while quail hunting, right Mr. Cheney?

As a conservative Republican, I'm tired of being called a 'liar', a 'racist', a 'bigot', 'an NRA loving Nazi', 'fearful and ignorant', or any of the other examples of 'hate speech' which spewed forth continuously from the liberal community.
Posted by: thomas777

Yes Thomas777. All conservative republicans are all of those. Thanks for reminding us. As for Sarah Palin, she hastily retreated, and took down her map of America sprinkled with gun sights. Proof enough what she meant, and now disown. Pinocchio’s nose is one inch longer.

The Becks and other right wing broadcasters openly speaking to "revolution" with the added mention of "guns." You will notice he has made himself fearfull of having incited someone to do violence.

I cannot speak to what inspired the purchase of the weapon used Saturday morning in Arizona! Surely, many Republicans own firearms and likewise so do many Democrats.

Do we really want to continue the rhetoric, and possibly inspire another instance of violence? I was raised with the belief that it was a violation of the law to speak to the "overthrow of the government by means of violence."
I stand in opposition to those who would advocate it!

I'm sorry but the claim that these were "surveyor marks" and not intended as rifle targets is a least a 3 pinocchio statement. Palin's own remarks about "targets" on November 4 would be enough to show that any claim these are surveyours marks is just a flat lie. That, coupled with refusal to refute Hasselbeck and Giffords show that it was well-known how the marks were meant to be taken.

It is of course unfair to link her directly to the motivations of Loughner or his inspiration, so Palin and her defenders can feel aggrieved by that charge. Nevertheless, the refusal to acknowledge what had been widely regarded as "targets" before last weekend and her own use of the term target makes the "surveyor mark" comment a significant post-hoc fabrication.

RE: Another cynically opportunistic article by the left leaning media, exploiting a genuine tradegy to condemn a political opponent. The Post should be ashamed of this cynical exploitation and blatant opportunism.
amazd

Yes. Of Course tracking down the truth is partisan and handicaps the Republican Party.

First, stop defending Palin by labelling those who disagree with her as the Liberal Left. Many of us are very independant thinkers and can distinguish between right and wrong. Second, even if there is no direct connection between the "surveyor symbols" and the tragedy, people with common sense understand that such rhetoric must be considered as a contributing factor.

The "surveyor symbol" defense is of course lame. On the other hand, there's no evidence yet that the shooter even saw the map. Still that doesn't change the fact that the imagery (coupled with the "reload" language on the same page) is over-the-top and very well COULD be spurring some violent person on (even if it didn't Loughner).

So while Palin isn't likely guilty of egging THIS one on, her choices are that of a reckless, immature person who is seizing on gun enthusiasm in a context that isn't really appropriate for it. We don't need to be talking about guns and gun sights and reloading along with political figures in the same sentence. I wonder if she gets that. Maybe she does, and that's why the lame "surveyor symbol" got offered. She's better off just saying "it was a poor decision", taking the website down for good, and refraining from her trademark over-the-top polarizing rhetoric from now on.

I wonder what would happen if a left leaning blogger posted a picture of Palin in the cross-hairs on a website? Would that be okay you right wing nutcases? Would Rush and Hannity defend that too? What if a muslim did it? Is that ok?

Palin SHOULD have said, "YES, I did this just the SAME as the Democrats did in 2004. Times have change and maybe it is not appropriate at this time and place and I will think again about such manner of speech. I HOPE that the other side of the coin can agree to do the same."
THIS is how you gain respect, EVENTHOUGH she can never get respect from the left wing media no matter what she does.
Sarah could save a family from a fire singlehanded on her own back and the left would rail against her for not saving the cat!

The Left are trying to destroy Sarah Palin. They must be afraid of her with the amount of articles they write about her.

Last week, before last Saturday, I had commented on the fact that on any given day there are quite a few negative articles on WaPo about Palin.

The Left are playing loose and careless with the facts of this case. No wonder the liberal MSM is losing credibility.

The 1st Amendment was to ensure that the Press was free to print the truth without being punished. Little did our Founders know what partisan hacks our Press would become. Obama would never have been elected had the liberal MSM printed the truth about his Chicago Way.

As a reminder let's once again read our own President's vitriolic words:

Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”

Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”

Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”

Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose a** to kick.“

Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”

Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”

Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies(Republicans).”

Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

Obama to Hannity: "I'm going to send Burgess to work him over."

And that "Punish your Enemies(Republicans)" statement Obama said only a few months ago.

As much as I would like to see the Tea Party disappear along with Sarah Palin (and by, "disappear", I mean go away safely in peace, taking their useless rhetoric with them), I can't blame them for the actions of a sick man.

It's the same logic that says 1st person shooter video games inspire kids to go on a murdering spree. The rational mind realizes that it's just a game.

And I'm no NRA nut by any means, but I firmly believe in placing the blame where it lies....guns don't kill people, people kill people.

I'm just sorry that so many good people had their lives cut short by an obviously sick man. May God bless us all.

TThis is a fact Mr. Fact Checker.
The cross hairs on a rifles telescopic sight can never exceed the perimeter of the circle.
Check it out.
The "Cross Hair" on Palin's map has a "Cross Hair" that exceeds the circle. There is in fact a surveyor’s symbol, BM #79, where "Cross Hairs" exceed the circle and look exactly like the symbol that used by the printer who identified the districts on the map you showed in your article.
How would you explain that fact regardless of what people say?

There is no evidence the shooter paid any attention to conservatives much less even listed to talk radio or conservative TV shows. The position of those on the left who are trying to use the tragedy in Tucson for political gain is based on wishful thinking and shows just how unreasoning and unreasonable they are.

COLEBRACKETT - Yes and Obama said something about bringing a gun to a knife fight and the DNC very clearly used the cross hairs from a rifle scope over photo's of Bush during the 2004 elections. It was SYMBOLISM, used to get across the idea that Bush was being targeted for defeat and that Fox News "analysts" had sliced and diced issues and polarized voting blocks. None of that, and clearly not Palin's map, was even remotely a call for some lunatic to harm people. Furthermore, that Arizona lunatic was a registered Democrat up until 2006 or 2007 and, then, registered as an Independent. He was a self described leftist who sometime in 2007, long before the Tea Party even existed, decided he hated Gabrielle Giffords. If the "progressives" hadn't made it all but impossible to forcibly institutionalize mentally ill individuals, this tragedy could have been avoided.

Please explain to me why the Palin ad with crosshairs is on the front page of the Post website today and there is no mention of the Democratic Party's repeated use of bullseyes for "targeted" Republicans they wanted to take out? Of course, we all know the explanation. The Post's selelctive perception and extreme bias has crossed from delusion to clinical paranoia. There is absolutely no evidence even suggesting that the obviously schizophrenic shooter was even aware of the Palin ads, or Palin hereself for that matter. The Post wants there to be a connection however, so it is attempting to create one where none exists. The editors should be ashamed of themselves for their attempt to use this tragic event to advance their political agenda. But never let a tragedy go wasted, right?

If you're waiting for any correspondence between Palin and the mapmaker to surface, you'll have a looooooooooooong wait. The people of Alaska have been waiting to see emails between Palin and others during her short stint as Governor (which SHOULD be public information) for more than 2 1/2 YEARS now...latest estimate of when the (likely heavily redacted) emails will be released is now May... Think about it...she's been out of office for more than a year now, but the emails still haven't been released...

Yes, things like Sarah Palin's target map do influence our cultural climate. So do "reality" shows which highlight people verbally and physically attacking each other anytime they feel the slightest bit "dissed." This social climate of immaturity - the promotion of verbal and emotional attacking of others, retribution, bullying, and letting fly with anything one feels and thinks at the moment - has been a circular problem for years and is growing. It's promoted by people in all walks of life, not just politicians, and if we're going to work on the problem, we'll have to address it across the board. To suggest that people in general are not influenced by the immature and bullying social climate we've been creating and living in is naive. It doesn't matter if the shooter in this case saw Sarah Palin's map. The many things she has said and done, as well as those of ALL the political parties have contributed to a sense in the social climate that it's alright and actually expected that you bully others if you want to be seen as self respecting and if you want to "win." This same message is being delivered by many members of the media and all those involved with immature, bullying reality show programs. Psychologists for hire who make excuses for criminal behavior and basically put the blame on the victims have been sending the same subtle message to everyone. We used to explain the facts behind behavior to educate and help change the things that lead to the behavior, but we held the perpetrator solely responsible for their choice. Now psychologists for hire set up an "if-then" correlation that excuses criminals. Today we have set up the message that we expect lousy behavior from people if someone ticks them off because it's "natural" instead of expecting and encouraging and teaching people to have real self respect and rise to their best self - those things have to be taught and encouraged by the prevailing social climate.

So has Sarah Palin and so many others across every walk of life influenced the social climate in which this deranged shooter has been living? A resounding yes.

If we want to see change, we have an opportunity here to rise to the occasion and admit what kind of social climate we've been creating and then create a new and better one that serves us all. Does it have to become namby pamby and nicey nice? No, certainly not. I think we all know how to be passionate, angry, forthright and honest without becoming immature and bullying - the vast majority of the time. I think that's what we'll have to rise to, and what we will have to expect from those in the public eye if we want to see beneficial change.

The only good that can come of this lie is that more people will realize that this moron could never be seriuously considered for president. One Pinocchio is hardly enough. I would give her five for this blatant lie.

Following 'Palin-logic,' that guns in America aren't a problem and that they don't kill people, I'm sure she won't mind at all of some Second Amendment loving Obama supporters show up at her rallies exercising their God given right to participate in the political process.

"Please explain to me why the Palin ad with crosshairs is on the front page of the Post website today and there is no mention of the Democratic Party's repeated use of bullseyes for "targeted" Republicans they wanted to take out? "

Because no one shot the Republicans in the HEAD! If you had posted something simillar to Palin's about a neighbor and that neighbor ended up dead, no surprise that the police would look at you. Saying that someone else did it too does not make it right, how old are you people, 12? As someone said before, be an adult, say "it was inappropriate and if it contributed in any way to this tragedy we are sorry. We will consider the power of our words in the future and encourage others to do the same." Don't point fingers and make up lies about it not being a gun sight. BE A LEADER FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!

It's clear from the beginning what the "intent" was with regard to this graphic. Please note that one major reason this has become a topic for debate is the fact that Congresswoman Giffords herself raised the issue and worried about the "consequences" of such rhetoric. Ironically, her words sparked this (much-needed) debate. Look no further than the youtube video found her: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7046bo92a4

In this case, it's the victim who raised the issue re: Palin well before she was shot by a crazy man.

I especially appreciate comments from the surveyors on here - I have posted the difference in the symbols on my facebook page, and am being called "evil" because I am not ignoring this rhetoric used by someone who has no more qualifications to become president than Howdy Doody. Ignoring this rhetoric is NOT going to change things. AMERICANS who reject and will no longer tolerate violence in politics changes things. We have watched the tea partiers throw eggs at buses (WHO takes eggs to a rally unless they intend on throwing them at something!?!), gangs yelling at veterans with Parkinson's Disease, and a woman stomped on the head because she carried a sign with opposing view points! WHO is trying to take away rights, here?? Clue: NOT THE DEMOCRATS!!!
We must call for Limbaugh, Hannidy, Beck, O'Reilly, and OF COURSE, Palin to denounce the violence that THEY have permitted and promoted, and we need to all step back and ask if we want America to function like a Tea Party rally, in 2012 and beyond.

Sometimes even Sarah Palin isn't even as stupid as her detractors. This is one of those times.

In hindsight, after the shooting of a Congresswoman, many see the symbols on Palin's map as gunsights. But what would have been reasonable beforehand? Given a map overlaid with circle-cross symbols, what is a reasonable meaning for those symbols? They could be gunsights, but maps and gunsights would be a mixed image. Maps and survey symbols, at least, do go together. Even a kindergartener would know that those symbols mark a location--perfectly consistent with the survey-symbol interpretation. If the sybols are gunsights, then what is the meaning? Is one supposed to shoot that location?

Of course the symbols could (maybe probably do) have double meaning as both survey symbol and gunsight. But let us bear in mind that the simple meaning--the literal meaning in the context of a map--is the survey-symbol meaning. That meaning is certain and solid. The gunsight interpretation belongs to the world of metaphor and symbol. To make or not to make such an interpretation says at least as much about the interpreter as about the map's author. One might interpret those symbols as gunsights, but it is unreasonable (given the map context) to deny them as survey symbols.

The obvious lie about "surveyors symbols" shows what amateurs the Palin team actually are. Anybody who's been around the block (or actually finished an entire term in office) knows that the denials are what usually create the scandals. If those marks were meant to be anything other than targets, then why did her team immediately take the map down once news of the shooting broke? Definitely need more Pinocchios for the Palin team, and a few fumble icons as well.

Finally, here's what Palin herself tweeted on Nov. 4 when the election results came in and all but two of those lawmakers on her list had either quit or been defeated: "Remember months ago "bullseye" icon used 2 target the 20 Obamacare-lovin' incumbent seats? We won 18 out of 20 (90% success rate;T'aint bad)"
-----------------------------------------

The guy was mentally ill. That isn't a liberal or a conservative issue. Mental illness affects everyone regardless of political leaning.

While Palin's stupid map may have been in poor taste, it isn't connected to Jared Loughner's mental illness. As far as I can tell, the guy seems to have communist leanings more so than tea party leanings. But Sarah Palin is behind it, right? Afterall, we need a scapegoat, right?

I spent 40 years in construction. Those symbols do not look like any surveyor's marks I've ever seen. A surveyor's mark has orange (or red) "pie slices" alternating with white. A shameless and weak dodge. Try again.

She talks about being a momma grizzley and dares some people to man up. But she sure turns tail when the heat is on. The author is right. Defend it or apolgize. To claim otherwise is to insult the intelligence of everyone.

"So despite media efforts to draw larger meaning from the tragedy, the charge that Palin's map had anything to do with the shooting is bogus."

No, nothing like that has been shown. we don't know, and you don't know, if Sarah's map or any political rhetoric, right left or off the map, had anything to do with this shooting. The tendency of all the press to take a little information and interpret it to the moon is not helpful. We still do not know what this fellows motivations were, what influenced him. We have not heard what he has to say on the matter. You are making baseless claims about his motivations.

1. It is a computer typesetting symbol like every other symbol.
2. Surveyers use it a lot.
3. It also looks like gun sights.
4. Palin used it to mark congressional districts, a metaphor used by 900,000 googled posting.

1. It is a computer typesetting symbol like every other symbol.
2. Surveyers use it a lot.
3. It also looks like gun sights.
4. Palin used it to mark "targetted" congressional districts, a metaphor used by 900,000 googled posting.

It's not an 'after the fact excuse', it's a bald faced and shameless lie, so why soft pedal it? Left wing MSM? - RiiiiGHT. Do Palin's handlers believe we are as stupid as she is? While Palin's map may not have specifically incited the shooter, I'm convinced that the angry and deranged political rhetoric coming from the right (and 95% of the angry & deranged political rhetoric does come from the right these days) does influence people who have inclinations in that direction anyway.

Violent imagery is sadly a staple of our political discussions. Even the Fact Checker writes, "with left-wing bloggers especially taking aim at Palin's map of 20 House Democrats." Taking aim?

The point of this post wasn't to condemn Palin for Loughner's deeds. It's not reasonable to make that kind of assertion. Further, that kind of argument makes one guilty of repeating the sin it accuses the other of perpetrating. We're perpetually cranking up the level of confrontation in our political discourse.

The imagery Palin used on her 2010 map is just an example of how we have all fallen away from civility. There is no discussion, only argument and blame. That we use these events as excuses to continue to point wag our fingers is evidence that we simply refuse to learn.

Its plain an simple. The circle with the cross in the with the cross exceeded the the circle perimeter is a surveyor's symbol whether you like it or not. The cross hairs on a rifle scope or any other scope can not, let me repeat, can not exceed the perimeter. got it.
Regardless of what anyone says, including Palin, that symbol is a surveyor's symbol and not a gun sight scope.
Let it go.

If the very liberal WAPO is at all fair they will also post the Democratic map with targets posted long before Palin's and they will issue an apology. The shock to think liberals would post an internet map with targets - oh my.

The shooter was a outrage junkie who was mad about Health Care, immigration, and also hated America. He had extremely racist material, and Nazis stuff as well, most of what I have heard was right wing, but it was very doubtful his mind was rational enough to follow either sides debate points.
However, its the implied violence in Palins, the Tea Party, and yes some of the left's language which is being blamed for giving him a target and perhaps steering him towards violence. The Right uses far more gun and violence language and talks of revolution in the violent sense. This used to not be true of the main stream right vs Left, but it has been lately. However, both sides are guilty of language that is very dangerous in an unhinged mind.

We need to all acknowledge, frequently, that the vast majority of people involved in politics love this country very much, and every single elected official I have ever met sure seemed to. I may think the Tea Party types are very wrong about where they want to take the country, but that does not mean they hate the country.

Apperently Jared Loughner did become obsessed with the Giffords in 2007, but it was the violent rhetoric in the last few years that pushed him over the edge. If someone is telling people to "take back our country" or "If we can't take our country back with the ballot, we will do it with bullets" and no one calls them to task, it must be ok to do what they tell them to do.

Sarah Palin is a national disgrace and should hide her head in shame that someone on her cross-hairs list was shot. Whether the killer used this chart to go after the congresswoman or not, Sarah Palin is a vile person. She should be ashamed for advocating violence against politicians and we all said so at the time this chart was published. They were cross hairs of a gun and we all know it!! She is a liar and a despicable excuse for a human being.

...on "The View," co-host Elisabeth Hasselbeck--who campaigned with Palin in 2008--on March 25 labeled the map as "purely despicable." She added: "The names that are next to and being highlighted by those crosshairs, I think it's an abuse of the Second Amendment.

Why is this person allowed to speak to the general public at all? "Abuse of the second amendment"? Really? Tell me just how that works.

Sorry, Glenn.
Failing grade for you.
This is a 2-Pinnochio, if anything is.
This is NOT a simple:
"shading of the facts. Selective telling of the truth."
This is an outrageous:
"false, misleading impression by playing with words."
Not to mention a pathetic attempt at an excuse.
The fact that Loughner first began to pay attention to Giffords in 2007 is also no excuse.
Because of his illness, he nursed this animus and Palin's published "map" was likely an ideal addition to his reasons in his fevered, broken mind.
Loughner is severely ill; what is Palin's excuse (as well as her minions)?
Does Palin have no one around her to keep her from making a complete partisan fool of herself?
Apparently not.

"We're on Sarah Palin's Targeted list," Giffords told MSNBC in March, after the door of her Tucson office was smashed after her vote in favor of the health care bill. "But the thing is the way she has it depicted, it has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district and when people do that, they've got to realize there are consequences to that action."
This is a Learning Moment not cynical exploitation and blatant opportunism.
They have unleashed the same "Crazy for McCane" stuff we saw 2 years ago and when you don't snuff them out they will grow into a wildfire. When poloticians and judges need bodyguards we might as well tear down the border with Mexico and let the crazy flow.

This is getting comical. The targets on the states by the DLC published in 2004 were less personal than Palin's targets and did not have a list of people below the targets so they are completely different. I can picture Kessler saying to his boss right after saying "Give me another hit of that joint please." "Please boss don't make me take this approach. You are going to make me a laughing stock. Even Jon Stewart, a fellow liberal, may notice my lame defense and could have this on his show to ridicule me."

Let's face it. No matter what anyone would have found, be it a DLC target map or other evidence, to throw the hypocrisy in the face of liberals you would have somehow found a way to rationalize that it was different.

Spent two summers hearing all about how angry these tea party folks were, and wondering what those people really had to be so angry about.... Listening to teh responses after the events on Sunday, it strikes me that the rest of us are angry, that there has been a lot of suppressed anger all along, and I know why.

Pjohn2 -- you are quite right. I should have said "check the spelling" rather than "spell check." Because you might misinterpret the latter phrase. And then you might get angry. And we don't want that.

I disagree with your point that Palin's actions had nothing to do with the shooting. Her gun scope illustration, and more importantly her inflammatory words, have inspired many on the edge of mental stability to do stupid things. The shooter may have had animus toward Rep. Giffords since 2007, but he did not act on his feelings until this year. It is not possible for you to state without equivacation that Palin's acts/words did not contribute to his decision. The only thing that would preclude the possibility that she is partially to blame is if she had not done and said what she did.

OK, so they aren't perfect representations of gunsights because they exceed the perimeter. but gunsights are rendered that way in print because a circle with a plus sign nested in it looks like a four slice pizza or a pie chart. she said they were bull's eyes (mixing the metaphor) for goodness sake, not geographic monuments (which mark points, not congressional districts, just by the way), so let's not get absurd.

all that said, "targetting" districts and opponents for defeat, using bull's eye's, is more metaphorical than crosshairs.

cross hairs is a bit much for my taste, by comparison.

what really bothers me, however, is when you combine reloading your second amendment remedies to get the blood of tyrants with bullets over ballots to take America back from enemies of the republic, you can't pretend that lunatics might take you seriously (blending Palin, Angel, West, and others).

Another cynically opportunistic article by the left leaning media, exploiting a genuine tradegy to condemn a political opponent. The Post should be ashamed of this cynical exploitation and blatant opportunism.

Posted by: amazd | January 11, 2011 9:08 AM
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Another, cynical, dishonest post by a right-winger so high on empty rhetoric that he or she can no longer distinguish reality. How is the Post being opportunistic in pointing out the truth-hedging of a politician? Is the Post exploiting Sarah Palin in some way? Newspapers are supposed to check to see if politicians are telling the truth--that's part of their job.

Do words have any meaning for you, or are they simply slopped together and hurled about in order to express your incoherent emotions?

..on "The View," co-host Elisabeth Hasselbeck--who campaigned with Palin in 2008--on March 25 labeled the map as "purely despicable." She added: "The names that are next to and being highlighted by those crosshairs, I think it's an abuse of the Second Amendment.

Why is this person allowed to speak to the general public at all? "Abuse of the second amendment"? Really? Tell me just how that works.

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | January 11, 2011 3:50 PM
______________

So, John Din, you want to decide who's allowed to speak to the general public and who isn't? What kind of country do you think we live in? Freedom-haters like you do not get to choose who is allowed to speak to the public and who isn't. Look in our Bill of Rights, buddy.

Despite all the barking and braying from the hysterical left, the American public knows this thing in Tucson was the act of a nutjob who had nothing to do with those who support smaller, less intrusive government. Ironic that the left's answer is more laws and suppression of free speech, as long as it's the free speech of their opponents.

Posted by: carlbatey | January 11, 2011 12:01 PM

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Interesting comment, carlbatey. Why don't you look at the words of your right-wing compatriot, John Din, who wrote, "Why is this person [Elisabeth Hasselbeck] allowed to speak to the general public at all? " You right-wingers want complete control of the media; you'll whine about suppression of your free speech until you get a chance to shut down the free speech of anyone who disagrees with you.

This was a real opportunity for Sarah Palin to prove that she is a heavyweight simply by taking responsibility for her actions. How easy it would have been for her to say that she was so sorry; that her rhetoric was ill-advised and that going forward she would be more careful to use words that could not be "misinterpreted." I guess that ship has sailed.

Whether it is a surveyor's mark or crosshairs, where is your comparison to the Democratic Congressional Relection Committee website who had almost an identical map with bullseyes all over it and when you ran your mouse over the bullseye, up popped a window with a box entitled Target Republican: with a name, picture and description?

Shall we discuss if the democrats complaining about crosshairs find bullseyes and target pictures of republicans acceptable or equally despicable as they claim Palin's to be? Are democrats the hypocrits they appear to be or not?

Why don't you fact-check any of the hundreds of vicious lies the Democrats and the media have spun since the shooting?

For starters, is there any link at all between right-wing talk and the shooter? Nope. Is he a conservative or Tea Partier? Nope. Was he motivated by Palin or Rush or Bush? Nope.

Of course, you'll never fact check the nasty smear campaign the Washington Post is waging against half of America. You've indicted all conservatives -- made us co-conspirators in this murder. Fact check that, you clown.

You're not a journalist. You're a political partisan working on behalf of the Democrats.

Why don't you fact-check any of the hundreds of vicious lies the Democrats and the media have spun since the shooting?

For starters, is there any link at all between right-wing talk and the shooter? Nope. Is he a conservative or Tea Partier? Nope. Was he motivated by Palin or Rush or Bush? Nope.

Of course, you'll never fact check the nasty smear campaign the Washington Post is waging against half of America. You've indicted all conservatives -- made us co-conspirators in this murder. Fact check that, you clown.

You're not a journalist. You're a political partisan working on behalf of the Democrats.

But guess what? We can see through you.

Posted by: diesel_skins_
_______________________
there's nothing to fact check. No one on the order of Palin or any columnist has made any such claim. Making a point of Gifford's own remarks about Palin's map is good journalism, wouldn't you agree?

if you read carefully, people are distinguishing between any suggestion that this lunatic was motivated by this rhetoric, and the point that too many references to the second amendment, bullets, and the blood of tyrants can't be a good thing.

Get a grip amazd. If Palin did not want the evil, wicked left to scoff at this implausable explanation for the symbols she chose to use on her website, she could have avoided any chance of that happening by simply not acting on the impulse to put out her silly statement.

If she thinks there is nothing wrong with the gun sight imagery she should say so. If, in retrospect, she wishes that she had not chosen this particular way to illustrate her desire to see a candidate she disagrees with defeated, she should say so.

Palin is not a four-year old trying to win her kindergarten teacher's approval. She is a grown woman who considers herself ready to lead the free world.

I suspect the only reason there are "surveyors" symbols is because the mapping software they used did not have a real gun crosshair in it's symbol library. So Palin's aids are BS'ing the truth, they purposely picked a symbol meant to prepresent a rifle scope crosshair, it's that simple!

1) It actually doesn't matter since most people don't know what surveyors' symbol look like and would, therefore, conclude the symbols are gunsights (I took surveying 35 years old and am an outdoorsman who reads maps and *I* thought they were gunsights).

2) Palin's and the Tea Party's violent, hate-your-neighbor rhetoric is clearer than any symbol.

But not everyone is concerned; e.g., our enemies and competitors love what Sarah Palin and the Tea Party is doing to our country.

Thanks, Glenn, for spawning one of the most entertaining reads (ie the comments in this forum) that I remember experiencing in my roughly 55 years of seriously reading metropolitan daily newspapers either on dead trees or in the weird wild web. Several of the posts are brilliant---they take the words right out of my fingers.

But you should check the proudly junior-high-school logic of this statement in your essay's first paragraph:

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

It now turns out that the alleged shooter, Jared Lee Loughner, appears to have had an animus for Giffords dating back to 2007, long before Palin posted the map on her Facebook page last March. So despite media efforts to draw larger meaning from the tragedy, the charge that Palin's map had anything to do with the shooting is bogus.

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

Bogus? After the mayhem that occurred outside a Safeway (!) supermarket in a suburb of Tucson on Saturday 8 January, that's being seen by a majority (or at least a large minority) of your readers as an unwarrantedly extreme adjective. As some others in this forum have already suggested, not till Tuesday 30 November 2010 did the language-challenged and logic-challenged boy allegedly (!) visit a retail arsenal in Tucson to spend around $450 on the purchase of a "Glock 19" semiautomatic pistol with extended magazine. At that late stage in the development of his fantasies about the world, was his (alleged!) purpose for the gun to shoot the cockroaches of his own mind? Unlikely. Had his simplistic and addled world-view been egged on by his memory of a redneck brandishing a rifle (oops, sorry---it was a surveyor's folded tripod) arriving at a "town hall" meeting at which Barack Obama was speaking, or by such Custer's-last-stand slogans as "don't retreat, reload", or by the Wasilla weasel-worder's infamous crosshairs? Who knows? Not you, Glenn. Jumping to conclusions is more FoxNotTheNews territory than WaPo territory. Perhaps the truth will come out eventually.

And, by the way, the nonsensical wordstring "The assassination attempt of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords" that opens your first paragraph reminds me of the command of language that the said sad boy, a self-proclaimed grammar-expert, displays in his bizarrely stilted (it reads like Chinglish) white-words-on-black-background contribution to YouTube beginning with the line "Hello, my name is Jared Lee Loughner".

Dear Glenn, before you consigned your essay to the eyes of the world you should have permitted a copyeditor to logic-check it, especially its first paragraph.

BS - they knew exactly what they were doing and what they were suggesting-which is why they promptly attempted to cover their tracks after the shooting by taking the page down. Palin and her ilk should be spayed and neutered.

BS - they knew exactly what they were doing and what they were suggesting-which is why they promptly attempted to cover their tracks after the shooting by taking the page down. Palin and her ilk should be spayed and neutered.

Posted by: staussfamily | January 11, 2011 6:46 PM

Wow, there is that nice liberal tolerance in your last sentence. Unfortunately, this is part and parcel for the hate speech that defecates from the left everyday. What about the crosshairs the democrats used in 2007? What about the crosshairs Kos (kookdushe)had on the same congress woman for not being liberal enough?

Zero, zilch, nata, none, no evidence that Sarah Palin had any influence on the murderer...yeah, the guy you should be blaming.

You libs are dispicable no doubt, but you are losing ground on this by the minute. Check out Michele Malikin site to see a nice illustration of the progressive hat in action from 200-2010. Typical hypocrits that spewed far more vitriol against Sarah Palin during the election. Please, go back and re-visit your own hate. You find out what perverse and pure filth you on the left really are.

Tammy Bruce introduced the surveyor's symbol thing in the conversation and Mansour just repeated it.

You people are so 7th grade. This time in history will judge us a laughing stock for PDS and falling for politicians manipulations.

QUOTE:

MANSOUR: I just want to clarify again, and maybe it wasn't done on the record enough by us when this came out, the graphic, is just, it's basically -- we never, ever, ever intended it to be gunsights. It was simply crosshairs like you see on maps.

BRUCE: Well, it's a surveyor's symbol. It's a surveyor's symbol.

MANSOUR: It's a surveyor's symbol. I just want to say this, Tammy, if I can. This graphic was done, not even done in house -- we had a political graphics professional who did this for us.

I see several idiots in here that don't know the difference between a cross-hair and a bulls eye.

How about Senator Joe Manchin ad where he actually takes a rifle, cross-hairs on the Obamacare bill and fires a shot into it.

Or my favorite:
an hour after Giffords was shot, Daily Kos founder Markos Moulitsas actually tweeted: "Mission accomplished, Sarah Palin." He conveniently failed to mention that his Daily Kos had put a "bull's eye" (their words) on Giffords in 2008 - including her on a list of centrist Democrats who should be "targeted" in Democratic primaries. Mission accomplished, Markos?

To all of you know-it-alls who say "Come on, of course they were gun crosshairs, not surveyor symbols"... I understand your rage, your hatred, your depraved violence and will to kill. You express it enough.

What is crossed in a gun sight is a "reticle." It does not have a circle in the center of it that is opaqued and does not extend outside the gun sight. It is (when it is a crosshair) a simple cross within the circle of the sight. It is not what the map on Palin's blog used. THAT is a surveyor symbol. What it is NOT is a gun sight image. It is not crosshairs on a gun sight.

To all of you know-it-alls who say "Come on, of course they were gun crosshairs, not surveyor symbols"... I understand your rage, your hatred, your depraved violence and will to kill. You express it enough.

What is crossed in a gun sight is a "reticle." It does not have a circle in the center of it that is opaqued and does not extend outside the gun sight. It is (when it is a crosshair) a simple cross within the circle of the sight. It is not what the map on Palin's blog used. THAT is a surveyor symbol. What it is NOT is a gun sight image. It is not crosshairs on a gun sight.

I can't believe that so many members of the press fail to recognize registration marks when they see them! Anyone in printing should know that they werent targeting people -- they were just trying to increase voter registration ;D

The graphics are stock icons for cross hairs. Do an image search for cross hairs and you will come up with the same stock graphic icon that was used on the map, and hundreds more that are the same or similar. Lying about this instead of apologizing is to be expected, I think. At least I don't expect anything else from her, (or any other politician.)

Personally, I think it's silly of anyone to suggest that Gov Palin was subliminally advocating a violent response toward any of the 20 House Democrats. OTOH, I've never seen Palin have anything to say about the civil engineering profession nor surveyors but I sure have seen her boast about her hunting prowess.

So let's get real here...of course those were hunting scope crosshairs. So what? How does that translate into a call for people to take up arms against the Democratic 20?

You ask: "What about the crosshairs the democrats used in 2007? What about the crosshairs Kos (kookdushe)had on the same congress woman for not being liberal enough?"

I seem to have forgotten about both of those representations of crosshairs. Would you be so good as to post a link to a picture of each?

Whatever you do, 65apr, don't utter a simple "mea culpa", an "oops", a "my bad". No such humiliating retreat would ever be committed by a certain former paller-around-with-secessionists and former mayor and former would-be bookburner and former half-term state governor and former vice-presidential hopeful.

Good political discourse means never having to say you're sorry, even about a most trifling matter.

According to the right, anyone that commits an act of political violence is a "howling madman." The act, itself, is self defining. Timothy McVay? Howling madman. Osama Bin Laden? Howling Madman. Loughner? Howling Madman. The right constantly states things in violent imagery, threatens violence if things dont go their way, and tote guns around just in case we missed the point. Yet, when acts of violence occur, or proto violence, like, Westboro Church, Tea Baggers spitting on Congressmen and yelling out racial epitaphs, these are "howling madmen." Claiming the earth is 6k years old and ridiculing 80 year old scientists who tell you you're wrong, claiming Homosexuals are "diseased," Claiming women aren't protected in the constitution, claiming that MILLIONS of scientific studies that are peer reviewed are wrong in favor of some corporate clod's "new" findings, etc. etc., is all "normal," but the folks that listen to these noxious untruths and then act on them? You guessed it: Howling madmen.

I don't know, do you RELOAD a surveyor's eyepiece? Sheesh, she should own her actions and not blame the media or try to revise what she did. It may well have nothing to do with the assassination attempt, but that does not make it rit. As a christian woman, i am sure she knows that we should do unto others as we would have them do to us, and i know she would not want a target on her back.

Besides, didn't palin say she likes to use guns to get liberals all wee wee'd up? Well, not they are, so she should spare us the stupid blood libel references that only prove she does not know what these two words mean when used together. How presidential!

This article is under the heading of Fact Checker and titled "Gunsights or Surveyors Symbols". Did I miss something or was there not any research done as to if the symbols did or did not in fact match those used on a surveyors map to mark a priciple point?

Do the research (fact check) and see for yourself: egsc.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/booklets/symbols/topomapsymbols.pdf

Now as to whether Sarah Palin intended them to be crosshais of a gun or a surveyors symbol to mark a principle point can not yet be confirmed and is only subject to opinion and conjecture at this point.

Regardless, it is clear that Palin, the Tea Party, the Republicans, the Conservatives, the Right Wing, Etc. are no more responsible for this lunatics actions than Rock and Rap music is for creating criminals or McDonalds is for making people fat.

We all have choices to make between right and wrong, good and evil, and there will always be those that can not or will not distinguish between the two (no matter their race, color, creed, or POTLITCAL AFFILIATION)!

"Regardless, it is clear that Palin, the Tea Party, the Republicans, the Conservatives, the Right Wing, Etc. are no more responsible for this lunatics actions than [. . .]."

. . . than Arizona and the Feral Bureau of Indolence and the National Raotfl Association for carelessly conspiring to allow the said "lunatics", a perpetual boy who already had an officially documented history of antisocial weirdness, to (allegedly!) visit a retail arsenal in Tucson to "legally" acquire the hardware suitable for (allegedly!) putting bullets into 20 people and (allegedly!) killing six of them in the space of a few seconds of his narcissistic time?

Dear zjessup, what point are you trying to make about the need to improve the clunky federation's laws relating to the management of the millions of superannuated-boy members of the USA's private macho militia, a large minority of whom seem to regard guns as an emergency extension of their—um—boyhoods?

The universally revered and mostly liberal (= progressive) intellectuals who wrote the constitution of the USA and whose words were later hijacked and perverted by the said superannuated boys continue to turn in their graves.

And Palin expected us to buy the surveyor's mark malarky? It's REALLY disturbing that someone with designs on leadership would have such an incredibly low opinion of American gullibility. I am reminded of the statement attributed to Marie Antoinette, "Let them eat cake!" Now there was a woman who was completely, hopelessly clueless. Sarah is definitely a runner up.

And Palin expected us to buy the surveyor's mark malarky? It's REALLY disturbing that someone with designs on leadership would have such an incredibly low opinion of American gullibility. I am reminded of the statement attributed to Marie Antoinette, "Let them eat cake!" Now there was a woman who was completely, hopelessly clueless. Sarah is definitely a runner up.