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I believe in open and honest discussion between people that are truly interested in a subject like Aikido. However, I have a few questions for those of you that do not practice Aikido or have not been an active student under an Aikido teacher for a long time. . Why are you here? Are there not web sites more in line with your interest? It seems that in several threads there is a lot of negative comments regarding Aikido in general and some teachers in particular and in it's or their usefulness, understanding and ability. Are you here to show the light to the uninformed masses? Many statements would seem to indicate that attitude. Are you here to say you found a better way and we are all misinformed and misguided if we don't accept your way as "the" way? Many statements in many threads would seem to suggest this attitude. Why are you here with us and why are we not on your other forums? Why are you not on the other forums as strongly as you are on this one? Do you find more in common with us than with others of your own ilk? I truly want to know why you are here. I know this is for the greatest part an unmonitored forum but it is still an Aikido forum.
Oh, do you find our conversation more open and stimulating than other forums?

That's a good question Dennis. I consider myself as being in grey area between being in and out of aikido. I consider what I'm working on as Aikido, but I think a lot of people wouldn't. I sort of addressed the same issue over in this thread when I said, "After all, most of the detractors on this forum who go on and on about what Aikido's missing are outside of Aikido, looking in. At this point, I'm guilty of that as much as anyone. I suppose I still love Aikido for what it could be, rather than what it is today, I don't know what Dan and Mike's reasons for posting here are. Perhaps, like me, they just like arguing on th3 int3rw3bs…"

It really is mostly people on the outside looking in making the most noise on here now. I love it because it gives me a chance to pick their brains and steal all I can, but I can certainly see how it would be frustrating, since every thread seems to get hijacked these days. My appologies for being part of the problem. (no sarcasm intended)

For me its that I still like Aikido and hope to return to it some day. I have had many criticisms of Aikido here on these forums over the years but it has always been out of desire to see its improvement rather than to belittle it.

I think the arguments that dominate the forums are generally between the two extremes that either argue that Aikido is useless or that Aikido alone (that is trained in a mostly cooperative manner) is a deadly effective martial art. The former is certainly not true and the latter insults the intelligence of rational people with other training experience.

I personally view Aikido as advanced training most suitable for people who already have a solid base in another art, preferably one that involves some type of sparring. I do believe Aikido works, but most people's Aikido probably does not.

I am a casual student of aikido. I enjoy aspects of it, other aspects of it annoy me to no end. I still train a few times a month when I can find time in my busy bjj/judo training. I'm here because i like to bounce my point of view off others who might disagree with me. It helps me grow and better understand why I train. I've looked back at posts I've made on bullshido, here, and other forums and I can see how much I've grown and how my ideas on what I want to do have matured in the past year.

You will notice I normally keep myself confined to conversation on technique, martial effectiveness, and training methods. These areas are the areas that concern me. You wont see me posting in lineage battles, ki concepts, or other more 'aiki' type conversations because I'm not too terribly interested on how to generate the best ki power, or who's aikido is the real aikido.

I try not to belittle or make fun of anyone's ideas of beliefs. Rather I try to explain my point of view and see how they react. I don't really care if they see it my way or not. But the 'argument' allows me to better explore why I feel the way I feel.

I respect you because of what I've heard from others, because of what you've written over the years, and because of what I've felt from others on the mat that share your teacher...so I mean no disrespect...but...

Why does it matter?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

IMHO, this question is very important and one that we should ask ourselves on a regular.

To me, it speaks to intent.

What is my intention by being here? I am an active student of Aikido. My intent if to further my understanding in dialog and discussion and hopefully be of some small assistance in sharing my perceptions with others. If you read my post with that intent in mind, you will probably get what I am trying to say. If on the other hand, you believe my intent is to hide behind rank and gentlemanly ways, you will get a whole different meaning.

Some people (only a few) I have no idea why they post here. Their intent is totally lost on me. Unless its just to stir the pot. I must admit that I think the Aikido pot needs stirring every once and a while. Even being questioned by "outsiders" keeps me open to finding answers and hearing different perspective.

Now, IMHO, intent is a major component of efficient and effective waza. I believe that Ki is directed by our intent. Therefore, I can often feel the difference in being thrown by someone who is just walking through the motions, trying not to hurt me, and one who really intends to send me flying. I can feel the anger, fear, love, competence, and insecurity of the person throwing. We can feel the comfort level in the person taking the fall. No mystery. We all can.

While we can not nothing about why others train or not train, post or not post, we can surely do something about our own intent.

Others? Well, that does remain a mystery to me, but not everything needs an explanation to my satisfaction, especially if I don't really care.

Great question. Compliments and appreciation. Looking forward to the seminar.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!

I am a casual student of aikido. I enjoy aspects of it, other aspects of it annoy me to no end. I still train a few times a month when I can find time in my busy bjj/judo training. I'm here because i like to bounce my point of view off others who might disagree with me. It helps me grow and better understand why I train. I've looked back at posts I've made on bullshido, here, and other forums and I can see how much I've grown and how my ideas on what I want to do have matured in the past year.

You will notice I normally keep myself confined to conversation on technique, martial effectiveness, and training methods. These areas are the areas that concern me. You wont see me posting in lineage battles, ki concepts, or other more 'aiki' type conversations because I'm not too terribly interested on how to generate the best ki power, or who's aikido is the real aikido.

I try not to belittle or make fun of anyone's ideas of beliefs. Rather I try to explain my point of view and see how they react. I don't really care if they see it my way or not. But the 'argument' allows me to better explore why I feel the way I feel.

Not everything one reads is factual. Not everything one learns is useful. And not everything you see in a forum is relevant. That's life. Some folks enjoy being adversarial or confrontational online, especially if they desire impunity. You feed their need if you offer a reaction. Otherwise, they just leave.

I don't favor exclusion of non-aikidoka out-of-hand. Curiosity about the art helps to advance it, even if somewhat condescending. Outright disrespect does not work, but that is unfortunately not limited to the uninitiated. I try to take things with a grain of salt. I have seen other fora where people get banned whenever they say the first thing non-conformist. Personally, I like this way better.

I know my posts have not been as contentious as others, but I think that is largely because I do a lot more lurking and learning than posting.

However, I do fit into the category of someone who does not train in Aikido, yet who is here, and I can tell you why.

I train in an unaffiliated aikijujutsu school. Kokyu is given short shrift in our dojo-- we just train for "efficient body mechanics" and trust that the rest will take care of itself. Whenever we have trouble making something go, the answer is often "atemi." (While we're on the subject, yes, I am a believer in atemi. I think the ability to hit and hit hard should figure into anyone's self defense repertoire.)

Allow me to outline why I'm here. I don't expect everyone to agree, but maybe it will help shed some light on my motivation:

1. I believe aikido, aikijujutsu, hakko ryu, (insert art here) share a common "engine," that being kokyu/internal strength.
2. I believe that while the flavor may differ, the Chinese and Japanese arts share common principles and mechanics.
3. I believe that the vast majority of people who practice these arts do not understand how to use internal strength.
4. I believe that the majority of people who practice these arts do not have access to teachers who can and will show them.
5. I believe that anyone who studies very seriously in *any* of these arts will eventually run into the issue of how to use these skills.

So, my theory is that I should be able to have discussions with any serious practitioner of an art that uses internal strength and find some common ground. We should have things to discuss and share. All of us, in any art, should fear the day the last person who has real internal skill passes away. We all owe it to our arts to learn as much as we can while it's still possible.

I trained in aikido for a while, and I remember feeling a great deal of cognitive dissonance comparing how it is trained to how it could be. This is true of every art. I think it's fine if most train one way and a few grasp the real truths, but increasingly it looks like a day is coming when the real truths will pass from knowledge.

Call it greed or hubris if you want, but I don't want to connect myself with any art and fail to become an example of that art's full potential.

I think some of the people here share information in the true hope that they are helping others to learn. Some people share information as a way of "seeding" discussion, hoping to get information in return. Most, like me, are reading a lot and benefitting from the knowledge of people they would never have access to were it not for forums like this one. I try to contribute as best I can but the truth is I'm getting a lot more than I am giving right now, and I am truly greatful for that. (Thanks!)

Knowledge about this stuff is scattered and fragmented. Who knows who in what art will have a little piece of the puzzle, or some history that isn't widely known?

So here I am. I'm sorry if I offend anyone by not showing the deference he feels he or his teacher deserves, or if something that comes off my keyboard kills one of his sacred cows. I am here with the best of intentions: to learn and to share. I think George Ledyard's advice to gloss over the delivery and give the content careful consideration is spot on. I forget who said offense can never be given, only taken, but there is some wisdom there. Really, we all train in arts that claim ego loss is a goal and that too much ego is a barrier to progress. How many of us are setting good examples in this respect?

One thing that draws people here is the high signal to noise ratio. Are there arguments? Yes, everyone here is heavily emotionally invested in what they do, and not all of us see things the same way. But there are more mature, level-headed people on this forum than I've seen in one place in a long time. On the whole, there is a decent collection of folks here. I lurk on all of them I can find, but this is the only one I've bothered to register for. I hope we will all be able to check our ego's at the door and continue to share information. It's best for us as individuals, and best for us as a collective. Really, how hard is it to read what's out there, work with what is useful, and leave the rest for others to make their own decisions about?

Thinking back on the last year, a truly staggering amount of information has been presented here. Like many of you, I have a bookshelf full of martial arts books of every description at home. If I had to choose between them and what has become available to me online, it would be a hard decision but I know I would keep the online interaction. I won't name names, since some names seem to cause people to clamp their minds shut, but THANK YOU to those of you who take time to share the knowledge you've worked for here. I will do my best to be able to make your efforts worthwhile.

I enjoyed your considered response to the well put questions at the head of the thread. There are a couple of points, maybe you could clarify for me?

Quote:

3. I believe that the vast majority of people who practice these arts do not understand how to use internal strength.
4. I believe that the majority of people who practice these arts do not have access to teachers who can and will show them.

Now I neither agree or disagree with the rightness of these 'beliefs'. I personally have no idea if they are true. They do however seem amazingly all encompassing. It's a big world with martial arts being practiced in virtually every country. What leads you to be so confident that your beliefs are as they are? I'm quite sure you have evidence based on your own experience, but is it correct to extrapolate this out to be so 'wide' an observation?

I am a casual student of aikido. I enjoy aspects of it, other aspects of it annoy me to no end. I still train a few times a month when I can find time in my busy bjj/judo training. I'm here because i like to bounce my point of view off others who might disagree with me. It helps me grow and better understand why I train. I've looked back at posts I've made on bullshido, here, and other forums and I can see how much I've grown and how my ideas on what I want to do have matured in the past year.

You will notice I normally keep myself confined to conversation on technique, martial effectiveness, and training methods. These areas are the areas that concern me. You wont see me posting in lineage battles, ki concepts, or other more 'aiki' type conversations because I'm not too terribly interested on how to generate the best ki power, or who's aikido is the real aikido.

I try not to belittle or make fun of anyone's ideas of beliefs. Rather I try to explain my point of view and see how they react. I don't really care if they see it my way or not. But the 'argument' allows me to better explore why I feel the way I feel.

Ever since I have been doing Judo since past one year, I have been seduced by the pleasure it gives me. The adrenaline rush of being locked in combat, the ectasy of tasting victory and the humbling and self-reflective feeling of facing defeat... All these aikido are not able to give me.

As Darth Sidious said, "The Darkside is a path that will lead to many things"

So let me, take this opportunity to take a bow, and exit this stage gracefully.

As DonMagee says, I will remain a casual student of aikido and will post from time to time if any interesting topics do come out.

I am also in a grey area as far as my involvement in aikido goes. My active training days in aikido, a total of five years, ended in 1978. But aside from that, an interesting thought arises. Why post here? The action seems to be here. At Aikiweb - which, BTW, is not called "AikidoWeb" I've learned a tremendous amount.
When I came back to America, I entered Psych grad school - and had a terrible time. I was hot for intellectual dialogue and when I disagreed with someone, the response was a hurt little pout, teary eyes, and a response something like, "How could you criticize that. That was one of my favorite thoughts!" So I started hopping the fence and taking philosophy courses, where one ran a gauntlet everytime one spoke. One had to defend - with logic AND wit, anything that came out of one's mouth. I would wager that if the non-aikido folks (and those in the grey area, who also have hard questions) stopped posting, things would get rather pallid and uninformative real quick.
Best

Hey Dennis
Number one. Aikikoka are looking. I talk shop with folks who will talk shop. Otherwise I don't.
Many see and are now willing to talk about the work that is needed. They are finding after feeling some outside of Aikido (just like Ikeda did)...that they have been cheated in not being taught a clear means to get there by practical step by step improvements. Instead they are dragged through the twenty year man ideal. We can get them there much faster.
What was it that guy said that pissed people off on the Aikido list back in 1996... He said he felt he learned more in that weekend with me than in three years of doing Aikido.
So some come to us and we give them a means to fix it.
Everyones having fun as far as I can tell.
The skills that we have been discussing are the source of Aiki.
Very...very...few know even the pieces of them. Fewer still the mastery-if there is one-of them. And these skills are the cornerstone of your art.

That said, as long as I have read I have seen folks from all walks and styles who are interested in AIKI read and contribute here. Unless folks think Aiki is under the ownership of Aikido...which it clearly is not, I'd suggest ignoring those who do not contribute in a positive way and just post where you see fit..

Last
If you will note* Every person FROM aikido who has gone out and met folks who can do these things and felt the power..
a. sees the value and wants it
b wants to incorporate it into their ...AiKido...

And since they are enjoying the training....let me flip the question around

Dennis
Since Ikeda made a very impassioned statement about what is missing and went outside Aikido to find it....and stated clearly that the art is in crisis and needs to have its training radically altered
And snce the training folks are doing with us...smacks of Aiki....by their admission.
Let me ask you.............why would this bother you?

Dan, I don't remember saying it bothered me and I don't remember hearing my friend Ikeda Sensei say any such thing about Aikido lacking. He did say to me "seeing it through a different perspective helped him understand things a little better". I do not believe I made any statement that could not be substantatuated through a search of posts but that would serve little propose beyond redundancy. I also do not believe I was being confrontational or unkind. I simply ask a question that went to many people on the AikiWeb not just you. I am truly interested in why you all chose to come here an interact with us. For you it seems you are truly interested in saving us from ourselves. Laudable even if unnecessary. We are of a different mind for sure. I believe in Mohammad going to the Mountain and you believe the Mountain should come to Mohammad. I believe if we are truly interested in the welfare of the Aikido community at large we should make every attempt to be out and amongst it, you do not. Your candor at times confuses and befuddles new and more inexperienced students and you are not willing to meet them in mass to demonstrate your skills and understanding but insist they meet with you one on one, or a few at most, on your terms. Dan this is just not realistic and smacks of a condescend attitude when you rebuff legitimate invitations to interact. From all accounts you are a great guy. From you own statements you are a great guy. Perhaps your skill is great I don't know and have not heard anyone else say it but I will take you at your word. I have a hard time believing your convictions are as genuine as you say when you requirements for interaction are so restrictive and condition filled.

I know I will catch hell for even questioning motivations of people on this list. Even if I do it with the best of intentions.

Gees
I don't want to be part of a contention about it either.
I was referring to what Ikeda said in the article at Aikido journal I posted hereabout summer camp.
Darren is right. And if you hold to your own and insist that only Aikidoka can understand Aikido... your pretty much being duped.

Dennis
Since you asked....and If you are seriously curious, and not mad at me. My restrictions and interactions are just my lack of time (remember I am a student in others things and have to train, and I have a dojo with guys who want me to train with them, and I go outside to train and test with other folks) and a dissinterest in a gaggle of people who won't train solo and do the work. (Makes the long, cold, winters of Hokkaido between Takeda's visits, and why so few got it make more sense though. Lots of solo training time). I'm not a teacher and don't want to be one. And I think these things are a waste of everyone's time if you don't establish a relationship and train on a regular follow up basis. I've had over almost 200 people through here in 16 years. With maybe 6 who are any good. I'll leave that frustration to others. Maybe I just stink at teaching anyway
But enough about that. We continue to point that folks should ask to be taught the specifics. If these teachers can supposedly do then they should have students who know these skills and how they are done. That's all. But things that are "Aiki" are in others arts and can "expressed" as Aiki-do in a heartbeat.

Anyway, we shouldn't argue about it. It seems it is more beneficial than harmful. Particularly to those who are out there looking and can't seem to find someone who actually has it and is willing and able to teach it ....in Aikido.
Cheers
Dan

I'm here because I practice Aikido. I enjoy discussing aikido both its apparent strengths and apparent weaknesses with whoever may want to talk about it in a reasonably sensible fashion (childish rude trolls are exempt from this).

I don't care if they come here from inside or outside of aikido, or that 'grey area' in between. So long as the conversation is stimulating and challenging then its worthwhile. This isn't after all a dojo, regardless of what we do away from the keyboard here we intellectualise, discuss and debate as armchair budoka.

One of my favourite literary quotes ever is from The Last of The Mohicans:

"Young blood and hot blood, they say, are much the same thing. We are not about to start on a squirrel hunt, or to drive a deer into the Horican, but to outlie for days and nights, and to stretch across a wilderness where the feet of men seldom go, and where no bookish knowledge would carry you through harmless."

IMHO Internet discussion is "bookish knowledge", Budo is the wilderness

Best

Mike Haft

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

Some of who visit here do so because they have an interest in the direction aikido has taken, not because they train in it, but because they are from aikido's parent art, Daito-ryu. It's interesting to see how aikido has largely spun away from the physical principles that make many of the older arts so powerful, and some from the older systems may wonder why aikidoka wouldn't want to have some of that power in their own system, seeing as it can be used to subdue an attacker completely without violence or even pain.

Personally, I think that this "outside" perspective adds food for thought for aikidoka who may feel that they want to explore all of the possibilities for what their art could be. It's all conversational, anyway. Think of the perspectives and insights a Christian group might gain on the meaning of their "Old Testament" and even into their "New" if they were to invite some scholarly Jews to their discussion group. It's sort of like that. You don't have to adopt or adapt any of the intelligence provided, but it does give you a new body of knowledge that you didn't have before, and it might broaden and deepen your understanding of what you have.

I participate in aikiweb mainly because I enjoy the people in aikido and find that most are pretty honest in why they are studying the art. I think aikido offers a good philosophy that cannot be found in many other arts. I think the methodolgy is wonderful for conveying that philosophy. The world certainly would be a better place if all could implement the lessons learned in practice. That is mainly why I am here.

I do not current do aikido for a number of reasons. The most important one is that I have no one to practice it with where I am located. Second, I am deeply involved as a soldier in the Army Combatives program which is based heavily on BJJ.

I find that my background in Aikido has provided me an solid foundation in basic principles and philosophy. The BJJ/Army Combatives training offers me some very, very practical applications of that theory.

Much like Dennis Hooker discusses Ikeda's perspective...it is not about looking for the gaps in what aikido is lacking, but better understanding what aikido is through the study and perspective of other sound martial arts.

Those that look at aikido as the "glass half full" paradigm, that is, viewing it for it's limitations, are missing the picture. I did have that perspective years ago...I think we all go through it. However, as I proceed in my current studies, I have found it to not be lacking in any sense in principle. This, however, should not be applied to practice or actual application necessary...as that is a different animal all together, and frankly in my opinion...not a good,valid reason to study aikido!

Sure there are those out there that come to aikido to find what is wrong with it...some people love to watch a good train wreck!

There will also be those that want to convert/convince others that aikido is not "it".

There are also those that believe that they have found the true meaning and others simply "don't get it" and feel the need to tell them on a regular basis boost there own egos or to make others feel inferior.

I think though the majority are only here because they are seeking knowledge and enjoy aikido and the journey they are on.

I find most martial arts forums boring, but aikiweb has a vast majority of people that discuss concepts in a very knowledgable, respectful, and honest way!