First off, how do you conclude that all the other flights were grounded?

Secondly, the terms "blizzard" and "intense" are subjective terms with respect to landing minimums, or in this case, takeoff minimums. Each airline has a set of Operations Specifications (Ops Specs) that details what it can/cannot do, as well as having tailored Jepp plates detailing the appropriate minimums

For takeoff, and depending upon what was approved in their Ops Specs, they could be taking off with the visibility as low as RVR 1600 feet, or RVR 600 feet. The aircraft also has to be properly de-iced, and any performance penalties associated with runway clutter have to be considered. It's a quite reasonable presumption that they successfully met all the requirements, and thus took off.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: B6JFKH81Posted 2006-04-26 22:36:52 and read 21924 times.

Well, if the airport is open there is no limit to departing so long as you declare an "alternate departure airport" which will be above the landing minimums. The next problem would be if the departure control even has room for you to depart into their airspace.

Awesome pic though. There is nothing like an airport during a blizzard.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: AirTran737Posted 2006-04-26 22:41:38 and read 21899 times.

It's called the miracle of Type IV fluid. Type IV is like squirting the wings and tail of an airplane with K-Y Jelly. It can snow, and snow and it won't affect the aircrafts performance. Why do you ask? At a certain speed Type IV sheers off the wing, and takes all of the snow, rain, and ice with it, and all critical surfaces will be clean. Type IV usually has a two hour hold overtime, so usually if used the plane is off the ground before the holdover time expires.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: MD88CaptainPosted 2006-04-26 22:53:00 and read 21801 times.

He's not going without the required visibility and de-icing requirements. There is judgement involved sometimes, but AA doesn't run a shoddy operation. Trust the professional to make the safe decision. Either that or do not get on the aircraft.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: RichierichPosted 2006-04-26 23:37:39 and read 21608 times.

While it is clearly snowing a lot, I don't know that it is a "blizzard". The picture doesn't tell the whole story - maybe visibility wasn't as bad as it looked.

Commercial airplanes take off in snow all the time, although it obviously complicates matters somewhat.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: WhiteBirdFlyerPosted 2006-04-26 23:44:10 and read 21572 times.

Well, the picture was taken at BOS, yes? As far as I can tell this is just a nice spring day at Logan. Nothing unusual about the weather in the shot as far as I can tell.

But whatever the Ops Specs, fluids and conditions of departure, it really is a great shot!

Cordially,
WhiteBirdFlyer

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: AirBuffaloPosted 2006-04-27 00:18:42 and read 21414 times.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: Bobster2Posted 2006-04-27 00:32:47 and read 21334 times.

The caption on the pictures says "February, 2003". It doesn't give a date. But there was a major blizzard in Boston known as "Presidents Day Storm of 2003" according to Wikipedia, dumping 27.8 inches of snow on Boston.

This is rather meaningless without knowing the photo date, but at least it did snow that month.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: Stealth777Posted 2006-04-27 06:57:25 and read 20316 times.

Dont forget the conditions of the WN jet landing in MDW that overran the runway. I believe it was snowing a lot harder than the picture above. So if they could have done it (well the planes before them were able to do it) than the departure from BOS seems feasable.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: OnetogoPosted 2006-04-27 07:21:24 and read 20070 times.

Why would they depart? Because the professional crew which has more than extensive training and experience has deemed the conditions acceptable for the flight to depart.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: MasseyBrownPosted 2006-04-27 07:39:38 and read 19877 times.

I agree that the photograph probably makes it look snowier than it was. It's like watching a baseball game when a slight rain is falling - television makes it look like hard rain, but they keep playing.

Being an Midwestern native, however, I've seen my share of snowy take-offs and landings.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: TristarStevePosted 2006-04-27 07:45:53 and read 19822 times.

It can't be an intense blizzard because you can see the aircraft in the picture. If aircraft stopped operating in that weather, we could all have a long winter holiday, as there would be no flights.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: AirWillie6475Posted 2006-04-27 07:52:24 and read 19770 times.

Because in a few thousand feet there are blue skies.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: PtharrisPosted 2006-04-27 09:00:11 and read 19193 times.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 4):Type IV is like squirting the wings and tail of an airplane with K-Y Jelly.

I've de-iced more than one aircraft in my time working for AS/QX back in "the day", and I've never heard anyone describe Type IV fluid that way. To the point and rather effective description. Thanks for the chuckle.

Also, I think everyone is forgetting... this aircraft isn't landing. Yes, there is considerable amount of judgement call on making a decision to depart in any kind of adverse weather. However, remember that just about any aircraft can take off in just about any kind of weather other than a hurricane or tornado would be the exclusions. It's all about landing and having a safe "bail out" area in case something went wrong. If they'd landed in what the photo depicts as a blizzard, I'd say the pilot was freakin nuts. Since we really don't know the actual conditions for the day, runway condition, ATIS, etc. etc. I really don't think it's fair to say this was a dangerous or questionable take off.

That's my two cents. Sorry, no refunds.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: ThirtyEchoPosted 2006-04-27 11:58:05 and read 17737 times.

Although this was definitely a snowstorm, we have no idea if it was a "blizzard," or what the RVR might have been at the moment, or if this was a "long lens" shot that would have made the snow picture seem worse than it was.

In any event, takeoffs are different from landings. Think of it this way: You are pulling out of your driveway at 5mph when the "driveway visual range" suddenly drops to nothing; you just come to a stop. Take the opposite case, analogous to a landing, where you are exiting a freeway at 70mph and the visbilty suddenly goes to zip. You're now in a world of hurt. You can't just execute a missed "exit" and climb above any unseen hazards, ahead, because your car can't fly.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: HBAPosted 2006-04-27 12:35:57 and read 17390 times.

Exactly.. there is probably in excess of 1km of snow between lens and A/C which would exagerate the view.

Looks like you're from Buffalo where it really snows!!

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: ZvezdaPosted 2006-04-27 13:26:49 and read 16898 times.

It doesn't look like much snow to me. I don't know how many times I've departed from SVO with less visibility than that.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: AA777Posted 2006-04-27 15:12:14 and read 15573 times.

The snow could look more compounded depending on how far the plane actually was from the photographer... ie, it may LOOK like its snowing like a blizzard- but it might not be. The snow on the ground indicates either there is relatively little snow, or it was the beginning of the storm. Either way, I dont think it was a problem.

-AA777

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: ChristiaanPosted 2006-04-27 15:44:03 and read 15144 times.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: MesaMXORDPosted 2006-04-27 16:14:27 and read 14712 times.

As previously stated there are soo many things company requirements, aircraft requirements, meteorological conditions that have to be met on top of the Captains decision.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: XFSUgimpLB41XPosted 2006-04-27 20:00:48 and read 11348 times.

If it were a blizzard, you wouldn't be able to see the airplane...

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: Airborn757300Posted 2006-04-27 20:13:08 and read 11174 times.

I've seen aircraft take off in worse conditions than that picture. Agreed it's in the airline's Ops Specs. Also, very sweet shot tho.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: UAL747Posted 2006-04-27 21:28:57 and read 10078 times.

Not to mention, the picture was taken during low-light conditions no doubt. Thus, the shutter speed was probably set very slow, causing the amount of white you see as snow to be more intense.

Just my $0.02.

UAL

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: Virgin747Posted 2006-04-28 07:33:28 and read 9036 times.

I'm just surprised the picture made past A.net screeners.... I could see a long list of reasons for rejection had I taken it...

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: IwokPosted 2006-04-28 08:45:02 and read 8974 times.

And don't forget, a little snow in the engines, PLUS the lower ambient air temperature help to boost the takeoff thrust quite a bit.

-iwok

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: SuperflyPosted 2006-04-28 08:58:17 and read 8962 times.

Excellent photo!

I wouldn't call this blizzard conditions. If it were, the snow would be moving in a more horizontal direction and that would be picked up by the slower shutter speed. Also, the distance the photographer is from the aircraft. If this were a blizzard, the photographer wouldn't have been able to get that clear of a photo from his distance.

Great replys everyone.

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 15):Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 4):
Type IV is like squirting the wings and tail of an airplane with K-Y Jelly.

I've de-iced more than one aircraft in my time working for AS/QX back in "the day", and I've never heard anyone describe Type IV fluid that way. To the point and rather effective description. Thanks for the chuckle.

I was afraid of were this thread was headed after reading that remark.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: L-188Posted 2006-04-28 09:12:33 and read 8932 times.

The other thing to consider besides the distance between the plane and the photographer is that if the snow is cold enough and the airplane isn't warm, any snow that hits isn't going to stick.

See it plenty of times up here.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: StealthZPosted 2006-04-28 11:55:53 and read 8827 times.

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 3):Well, if the airport is open there is no limit to departing so long as you declare an "alternate departure airport" which will be above the landing minimums

OK, I am in IT and there is likely much I know about Enterprise Data Storage that many of you don't just as there is much about the aviation industry that I don't know and many of you do.
Having said that.. how can you have an "alternate departure airport".. either you can depart from the one you are at or you can't!!

Am prepared to be corrected on that point.

Chris

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: OPNLguyPosted 2006-04-28 16:23:22 and read 8676 times.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 30):OK, I am in IT and there is likely much I know about Enterprise Data Storage that many of you don't just as there is much about the aviation industry that I don't know and many of you do.
Having said that.. how can you have an "alternate departure airport".. either you can depart from the one you are at or you can't!!

Am prepared to be corrected on that point.

Most of the time, folks think about alternates strictly in terms of the destination airport, but they are sometimes also needed for the departure airport. At most airports, the landing minimums are higher (1/2 mile) than the takeoff minimums (1/4 mile), so if it's 1/4 mile and a flight suddenly has a problem necessitating a return, they can't get back into the airport they just departed from. The "takeoff alternate" serves as that place to go in such a situation, and there are limits on how far away it can be from the departure airport (no more than 1 hr. away for a twin, and 2 hrs. for a 3 or 4 engined aircraft).

Aircraft seldom have to actually divert to a takeoff alternate, but it does happen. I recall one Delta DFW-ATL flight departing one foggy morning years ago shelling an engine and landing in SHV (Shreveport, LA).

We (dispatchers) list any takeoff alternate on the dispatch release, or if the weather drops suddenly someplace, we also designate them via radio or ACARS.

Topic: RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?Username: ZvezdaPosted 2006-04-28 22:57:32 and read 8469 times.

Quoting Iwok (Reply 27):And don't forget, a little snow in the engines, PLUS the lower ambient air temperature help to boost the takeoff thrust quite a bit.

I understand how cold air improves jet engine performance, but could someone explain how snow entering a jet engine improves its performance?

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