How about a more extreme grip for one handed backhands?

Henin, to my sense, has presented one of the most
treatening backhands of all time, men included. Her approach to
backhand hitting seems very suitable for our modern game. On
the men‘s side, Gasquet has always have the hang of hitting
extremely powerful strokes.

So, I was wondering. How do one handed players feel about this grip?
And is it a suitable grip for amateurs or the game in general?

Also, well, if you use it and have videos, I would like to hear it and see it.
Thanks!

Why don't you try it and judge for yourself?
Me, it takes too much energy to always hit a topspin backhand, and while you can slice off the same grip, it needs to be taken very early, something which doesn't seem to happen on every ball during a match.
My best biting slices or hit very late with a conti grip shaded towards eastern FOREhand, so it's a hard slice taken late.
Quite the change to try to hit early with topspin, well out in front of yourself. Too much change in strikezone for my feeble mind to embrace.

Oh, but I am still young. Ahahah
I did change back to a nearly eastern grip on my forehand.
It annoyed me to have troubles hitting slower balls for practice
with my former full western. It was easy to hit hard, but hard to
give away a slower balls to help my girlfriend improve her game.

On the backhand, I am tired of hitting with two hands, but since I
always had troubles off that wing to generate spin and keep a slightly
closed face at contact, it seemed like an option.

As for the subject, I wanted to bring people to debate about the above.

It's essential to use a "modern" grip of some type, from most rec up to pro.

I'm defining "modern" as where you hold the racket like a mountain bike handle, rather than a steak knife. That's enough for a massive improvement.

Bad grips are probably a major factor in the demise of the 1hbh.

So people need to be educated about the nature of grips, but this requires better terminology.

Current terminology is ambiguous and confusing, and the internet search results unfortunately promote the Eastern "steak knife" grip rather than the grip pros actually use. Unfortunately, even reputable sites like Fuzzy Yellow Balls makes this mistake.

A western grip like Henin's is good for hitting topspin on shoulder-high balls. It requires excellent movement and good hand-eye. You must move well not only to keep the contact point way in front of you, but also have the adjustements for balls which are not in the optimal strike zone. There also isn't much margin for error in the swing with non-optimal balls.
I would never teach a new player an extreme grip like that, but if you have a specific reason for going with it, try it out.

Extreme 1 handed backhand grip like LeeD said requires you to hit it way out in front. If you are young and fast go for it. The topspin is intoxicating with it.

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That‘s a slight exaggeration. One handers are typically struck only slightly forward of two handed backhands (that‘s from an actual study which compare 18 top juniors) and, at that point, your arm is mostly as far as it can get with an elbow extension and a 90 degrees angle between the handle and forearm... Henin doesn‘t look like she‘s taking it earlier than anyone else, nor does Gasquet.

As for the contact zone, it never was made sense to me. Of course, there‘s an optimal strike zone for every grip, but I was digging balls bellow my feet with a full western forehand and it wasn‘t problematic at all... I guess practice makes a big difference and, as pointed by many, the set up is crucial, but that‘s also true for any one handed backhand... or, even, dare I say, with any stroke.

In this discussion there needs to be a reference point for an extreme grip hitting "way out in front."

Way out front compared to what? A 2hbh? Conventional wisdom says yes.

But this thread is about comparing a conventional 1hbh vs. an extreme 1hbh.

Therefore, we should compare the contact points of two these types of 1hbhs.

As it turns out, a switch from Eastern to Extreme Eastern (moving both knuckle and heel pad back by 0.5 bevels) will probably move the contact point by about 2 inches. Not much at all.

In fact, a bigger change is going from "steak knife" Eastern to a "modern" Eastern, which adds about 4-5 inches to the contact point. That's a significant difference, so this deserves some thought.

A "steak knife" has more lateral reach, is easier to flick, and can be easily hit without having to open the shoulders. Combined with a willingness to slice most balls above belly, this stroke can be part of a comfortable tennis style. It might be a reasonable choice for some casual players, older players or someone with a really good slice, etc.

Unfortunately, the steak knife Eastern is not good for even moderately high balls. So if a "steak knifer" wants to drive most his backhands, that means either:

1. He has to hit OTR consistently, which is tough to do; or
2. He has to constantly back up on medium-high balls (or stay back) and/or hit more defensive shots, which is ultimately more physically demanding than hitting with a modern grip from good position.

So in short, using a slightly stronger grip (whether we're talking knuckle or heel pad) shouldn't typically add that much overall physical demand, especially if he/she is already trying to slug it out from the baseline. And it may actually save work.

However, I could see how a big jump from, say, a Federer stoke to a Mauresmo stroke would probably add more work.

Even to the beginners, the optimal technique makes learning much easier and productive.

I recommend,

Grip-E bh (not 'steaknife' nor 'mountainbike', just in between)Stance-closed and keep the hips and shoulder sideway before and right up to contactWeigh transfer-back to front footSwing path-Almagro, Gaudio, Kuerten (prepare high with elbow up shoulder level and finish high and around the body not start low finish high; for high balls racquet head could be above hand at contact)Wrist- firmly neutral at contact (neither extended nor flexed) and supinate forearm and extend wrist for finish; this firm but well controlled wrist work with the optimal swing path makes dealing with high balls easier and adds topspin; do not keep it locked extended but do practice locked at neutral

There is absolutely no need for more extreme grip because the wrist control can achieve that. E bh grip with neutral wrist will necessitate hitting out in front. And at contact the racquet and arm angle is way more than 90. more like 120 or so.

I haven't seen anything that shows Wawrinka uses anything other than E bh grip. His front foot points more forward and wrist control and swing path are slightly different from most 1hbher's, but it's not grip.

There is absolutely no need for more extreme grip because the wrist control can achieve that.

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This is not a very convincing point...

Facts:
1-You want a slightly closed face at contact to get top spin;
2-Some people have trouble getting the right angle with milder grips.
3-The only extensive study I have access to suggest that there is no reason
to think, as common wisdom supports, that grips inherently affect topspin.

Furthermore, there are more than just one isolated case of extreme grip backhand on the pro tours of both genders. Henin is an obvious one... and she's a very telling example, actually. She's 5'-6'', barely reaching 125 pounds and hits that shot consistently.

A common problem for one handed backhands at the amateur level is their consistency. Part of that is an obvious consequence of the player's learning experience, but some of it might be using an unfit grip. Maybe they have troubles generating spin... If you hit a nice stroke, but can't find a safe rally depth, changing absolutely nothing but the angle of the racket at contact would make it a perfect shot.

I think that if amateurs were using a slightly less conservative grip on their one handed backhand, they'd be more easily capable of compensating for these issues. I do not intend to solve all problems with this... the argument I make is that it could solve a problem such as mine -- I can really crack backhands hard, I can rally with them a bit, but the distance is not safe enough and I have troubles getting the extra spin. It's not a ton more spin, but just as with my forehand before I improved it, this little extra is the difference between extensive control and approximate control.

I'll obviously try it this summer (I always thought it would make it hard for me to hit big, until recently) and I will be able to talk about it personally. As for the scientific support, we do have reasons to believe it might actually make some differences, as a matter of comfort and in specific cases. For instance, it can't turn bad swings into good ones and it won't turn a flat shot into a loopy one, but it can affect the spin/pace ratio of a clean stroke given personal habits.

a lot of times rec players using 1hbh extend their wrist on contact as the result of locking the wrist from the prep. This opens up the racquet face at the contact. If you hold your racquet in normal E bh grip and address the contact point and make sure your wrist is not extended but either neutral or slightly flexed, then the racquet face will be closed. Once you put this angle in your muscle memory and practice you'll be able to hit as hard as you want and balls won't fly. And you'll find the neutral wrist can be much more firmer than the extended wrist.

Changing the grip toward more extreme due to racquet face angle instead of adjusting the correct wrist usage is not the best solution and will cause other problems down the road like dealing with low balls. Learning how to correctly use the wrist angle is a much better way.

People who don't have a good 1hbh form always talk about 'extreme' grips.

Most of the people mentioned here do not have extreme grips. They are on the conservative side. I define the grip by the knuckle and not the heel pad. These players have small grip sizes. Stan, fed, haas, youzhny, dimitrov all have conservative grips. The knuckle is on the top bevel and in most cases heading towards the first bevel. Youzhny's grip is almost continental. Their 'look' and spin come from wrist control and supination and swing path. A conservative grip allows you to 'whip' it more. Henin's grip is more extreme than avg because she was short. Find a good clear pic of these players and you'll see their knuckle is not on bevel 8 or even the edge. They are getting power from shoulder usage and the swing is more of a 'lift'. a lifting up of the arm. not a 'push' from the palm.

if you look at the wrist and top part of the forearm there is usually no wedge there. their wrist is pointed down (usually). there's a flat line between upper arm and the top of the wrist. they are pointing the wrist down to create the angle.

The partly agree with Cheetah in that it is about "lift" with the arm, at least for most players.

BUT, in order to achieve that "lift" you need to hit further out front so that your arm is in the upward arc of of the swing. If you hit close to your body, at the bottom of the arc, the racket has no lift.

Therefore, you need a grip that allows you to hit sufficiently out in front. Rolling back your heel pad is the easiest way to achieve this.

As I've said before, it makes no sense to only use the index knuckle as a measure of grip. There's a huge difference between an Eastern with the heelpad on top vs. heel pad on the back bevel. Anyone who tries this can feel it.

Bevildevil, I agree the index knuckle on bevil 1 and heelpad on bevil 8. That's exactly how I do it too. And on your article about Wawrinka, I don't see his heelpad near bevil 7. It seems on your photo it's on bevil 8, just like a normal E bh grip.

But I think it's somewhat important to note the index finger is not touching the middle finger for most pros. your 'mountain bike' phrase sounds like the index is touching the middle finger, which I wouldn't recommend.

I've been playing tennis for a long time, and I've never heard of the steak knife grip. I'm not aware of any coaches that are teaching the "steak knife grip." Is the steak knife grip a continental? An eastern? Or somewhere in between?

If you want to learn the grip that most of the pros use, put your index knuckle on the top bevel. If you start with a continental grip and shift one bevel over you'll be in an eastern grip.

Let me reiterate what Cheetah and Borami have already said, most pros use an eastern grip. If you look at Wawrinka and Federer's topspin backhand grips, they're not extreme at all. Federer is closer to continental than some of his contemporaries.

If you're learning the one-handed backhand, using an extreme grip will not magically help you tap into the modern game and give you a Wawrinka-like backhand.

Henin probably uses a slightly more extreme grip because she is shorter, and probably grew up having to hit a lot of shoulder level balls. Everyone should use whatever grip is comfortable for them. Everybody's grip is slightly different.

If you were never taught the basics of a one-handed backhand, gravitating towards a more extreme grip is not a magical passport into the modern game. It would be a better use of your time learning the basic mechanics of the stroke.

The trend I've noticed is a lot of players of average size or bigger, are using smaller sized grips. I'm not sure if that's the ticket to the modern game, for someone who doesn't understand the basics of the backhand. But if you're looking for trends to follow in search of the modern game, that might be an actual one.

As far as the grips, most guys use eastern. Even look at the clay court guys. Some examples I can think of are Gaudio, Robredo, Almagro, Costa, and Corretja. All those five use the eastern backhand grip. If you're just learning the stroke, the eastern backhand grip is the most common in today's game, and it's a good place to start.

You can experiment and toy with your grip and find the exact position that works for you. It will vary based upon your height, playing style, and preference. Some people even shift their grip a little depending on the conditions.

But I think it's somewhat important to note the index finger is not touching the middle finger for most pros. your 'mountain bike' phrase sounds like the index is touching the middle finger, which I wouldn't recommend.

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I partly agree, partly disagree.

From what I've seen, most pros have their index finger tip touching the middle finger, but with a slight gap forming between the two with the index either bowing upward or outward. Typically, this is combined with the index tip pressing up against the thumb.

I think the extent of this finger separation depends on:

1. How far down the heel pad is from the index knuckle
2. whether they are forming a loop with their index and thumb, or if they keep their thumbs outside,
3. how they "feel" the handle to make sure they have the right grip.

Anyway, I think pretty much every pro avoid significant lateral separation between the fingers. A big gap between the fingers is a sign the heel pad isn't far down enough.

^^^ I would argue that this slight gap by Almagro happens mainly because his finger is pressed up against his thumb (forming a loop), which prevents the index finger from fully closing on the handle. He may also be doing this so he can feel bevel 4 with his finger tip.

^^^ same with Stan.

Whatever the cause, these gaps are tiny compared to what I see some coaches promote.

What happens when we move the thumb out of the way?

^^^ once the thumb is out of the way, the index finger can close down fully. Note how Kuerten's thumb is to the side of his fingers, not underneath.

^^^ same with Pete.

Overall, I think the absence of a gap isn't an immediate warning sign. However, a big gap between the fingers is likely a big problem.

I've been playing tennis for a long time, and I've never heard of the steak knife grip. I'm not aware of any coaches that are teaching the "steak knife grip." Is the steak knife grip a continental? An eastern? Or somewhere in between?

If you want to learn the grip that most of the pros use, put your index knuckle on the top bevel. If you start with a continental grip and shift one bevel over you'll be in an eastern grip.

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As I've said very often, an "Eastern" grip actually encompasses many grips because the palm positioning can vary.

If you do a Google image search under "eastern backhand grip", most of the instructional photos on the top few rows show someone holding the racket like a steak knife (hence, my made-up terminology). This has been more commonly referred to as a "pistol grip" because the finger looks like it's on a trigger. But I figure more people have used a steak knife than a pistol...

Most of these instructional photos are terrible. The worst is the one with a quarter on the back of the hand, but most are some variation of that.

These are not the grip the pros use. Compare these top search results with that the pros actually do. Hint: Look at the pictures from my last post.

If you still don't know what I'm talking about, see my own article that I've been referring to to avoid saying the same thing repeatedly.

Let me reiterate what Cheetah and Borami have already said, most pros use an eastern grip. If you look at Wawrinka and Federer's topspin backhand grips, they're not extreme at all. Federer is closer to continental than some of his contemporaries.

If you're learning the one-handed backhand, using an extreme grip will not magically help you tap into the modern game and give you a Wawrinka-like backhand.

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The problem is that many rec players, including those who have studied the game, are using a weak grip to begin with. They do this for several reasons:

1. The aforementioned Google search (as well as Youtube videos that implicitly advocate a weak grip)
2. Their instructors are bad regarding the 1hbh (common).
3. They naturally picked up the racket with the weak grip. After all, what sane person would naturally pick up their racket like in the picture above?

Therefore many players do need a more extreme grip, though not necessarily a grip that is actually "extreme."

a lot of times rec players using 1hbh extend their wrist on contact as the result of locking the wrist from the prep. This opens up the racquet face at the contact. If you hold your racquet in normal E bh grip and address the contact point and make sure your wrist is not extended but either neutral or slightly flexed, then the racquet face will be closed. Once you put this angle in your muscle memory and practice you'll be able to hit as hard as you want and balls won't fly. And you'll find the neutral wrist can be much more firmer than the extended wrist.

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Intuitively, the grip defines the forearm-racket head relation and should directly affect the outcome. A more extreme grip makes, ceteris paribus, for more angle at contact (for a less vertical face) as well as a more vertical swing path... And extreme grip should result, given our knowledge to a higher spin/pace ratio (closed face) and a higher ball trajectory (more vertical swing path prior contact).

The problem is that it forces us to face incoherent facts. Federer and Berdych are great example.

For the sake of your knowledge, they both pronate during their forehand transition (the forearm pronation occurs in between the take back and the the beginning of the forward acceleration of the racket) which has been identified as the optimal transition move. Being both part of this limited club, their forehands are very comparable, mechanically speaking, at least.

Federer generates a greater spin/pace ratio than Berdych, yet it's Berdych who has the most extreme grip of the two. So, a third factor OUGHT to account for the variations... the relationship between grips and strokes is indirect and I suggest that what bonds the two is the player's identity.

The player's identity would be, under this framework, a context within which the grip influences the stroke. Bearing objective biological and anatomical limitations, some grips might be better for player A and, others, for player B.

As I've said before, it makes no sense to only use the index knuckle as a measure of grip. There's a huge difference between an Eastern with the heelpad on top vs. heel pad on the back bevel. Anyone who tries this can feel it.

When I explain grips, I used both the index knuckle and the heel pad... always. An eastern grip, in the sense that I intended to use the word and did use the word, fits very few hands positions only. Starting with bevel one on top, rotation toward your racket hand from 1 to 8, the eastern forehand is both of these references on the third bevel, period.

That's what I call a standard grip and that's how I have learnt them as well. When I talk about the eastern back, again, both references on the top of the racket (that's bevel number one).

Of course, there are huge problems with these names... as you lessen the grip size relative to the hand, it becomes nearly impossible to hold a standard grip at all. Federer and Nadal play with grips something like 2 grip size less than the conventional measure would advocate. Even by trying, they can't get their heel pad on the same bevel as their index finger.

I personally use one grip size less and replaced the grip with two very thing overgrips... I have long fingers and that's small for me: unless the racket is at a ridiculous angle in my hand, I can't get to fit the standard I have wrote down myself.

When I explain grips, I used both the index knuckle and the heel pad... always. An eastern grip, in the sense that I intended to use the word and did use the word, fits very few hands positions only. Starting with bevel one on top, rotation toward your racket hand from 1 to 8, the eastern forehand is both of these references on the third bevel, period.

That's what I call a standard grip and that's how I have learnt them as well. When I talk about the eastern back, again, both references on the top of the racket (that's bevel number one).

Of course, there are huge problems with these names... as you lessen the grip size relative to the hand, it becomes nearly impossible to hold a standard grip at all. Federer and Nadal play with grips something like 2 grip size less than the conventional measure would advocate. Even by trying, they can't get their heel pad on the same bevel as their index finger.

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I think what you're saying is that your index knuckle and heelpad are both on bevel 1.

If that works for you, then that's great.

But that's not what the pros do, and I think it's a bad grip for most players. 1-8 is probably the least mildest that should be used, and 1-7.5 or 1-7 is probably most useful.

Also, using an undersized handle isn't enough to account for a 2-bevel change in heel pad position (especially since most these guys use oversized buttcaps.

It seems to me that their hands are quite a bit more angled with the handle than the suggested grip form you uploaded...

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Probably two reasons:

1. Federer does not use the grip illustrated by Fabian Seixa above. Seixa's grip is pretty strong, with his heelpad probably squarely on bevel 7. Federer's grip is more mild, with his heel pad around the lower 8, or maybe 7/8 edge. So the greater angle shouldn't be surprising.

2. They are all swinging, and their wrists have probably bent outwards slightly (ulnar deviation).

Here Gasquet has a pretty sharp angle.

Just to be clear, the grip illustrated by Seixa is a pretty strong one and isn't right for everyone. But I think it's a much better defaul grip than what Google search returns.

1HBH needs a strong, abrupt, short or quick brush up impact on the ball. Its a must as the saying goes "all shots are not created equal". If you cannot do this action on afrementioned impact, you may have the wrong grip and wrong timing sense of stepping onto incoming ball.

Kuerten, Gasquet, Henin are way too advance to exercise consistency in their expertise. They all have a very advanced sense to the incoming ball. Ball is hit very far out in front. If you're not following the ball where it would go in advance, stay away from their grips.

The later your instinctive reponse is, moving grip to continental is discreetly advised.

Great thread, very informative, I'll try out some of your suggestions next time I'm on court! How about transitioning between a one handed topspin and slice backhand, would you guys advocate a grip change? In the past, several coaches have taught me to hit my slice backhand with a continental grip (initially when I was mostly a s&v player on grass). However, I have found that I naturally tend to over-extend my wrist when I hit a slice, creating a 'V' between my hand an my wrist. If I do that using a continental grip I tend to cut under the ball with a very open face instead of driving through it, resulting in a very spinny shot with very little pace, almost a drop shot.

Recently, I've been experimenting with using my normal eastern backhand grip (still need to figure out exactly where my heel pad is on it...), and when I then extend my wrist, I open the racket face just enough to get a nice deep, biting slice (ideally, of course). It also makes transitioning between an intended topspin backhand to a last ditch slice a little bit easier. What would you guys recommend, keep going with the eastern backheand grip on my slice backhand, or stay with the continental and learn not to extend my wrist (easier said than done...)?

Great thread, very informative, I'll try out some of your suggestions next time I'm on court! How about transitioning between a one handed topspin and slice backhand, would you guys advocate a grip change? In the past, several coaches have taught me to hit my slice backhand with a continental grip (initially when I was mostly a s&v player on grass). However, I have found that I naturally tend to over-extend my wrist when I hit a slice, creating a 'V' between my hand an my wrist. If I do that using a continental grip I tend to cut under the ball with a very open face instead of driving through it, resulting in a very spinny shot with very little pace, almost a drop shot.

Recently, I've been experimenting with using my normal eastern backhand grip (still need to figure out exactly where my heel pad is on it...), and when I then extend my wrist, I open the racket face just enough to get a nice deep, biting slice (ideally, of course). It also makes transitioning between an intended topspin backhand to a last ditch slice a little bit easier. What would you guys recommend, keep going with the eastern backheand grip on my slice backhand, or stay with the continental and learn not to extend my wrist (easier said than done...)?

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I keep a continental grip on the topspin and slice more because I'm too lazy to change.

I'm 5'11" and my brother is 6'3" and always hits high to my back hand. He occasionally throws a fast one in there so it's easier for me to keep a continental grip.

By the way, I'm only 18 years old and LOVE to serve/volley and chip/charge. I find that the modern game and anything referring to it (grips, rackets, string, etc.) requires a bit of work.

The modern game requires a decent amount of athleticism when setting up for shots and hitting out in front. A conservative grip requires less of the two, but if you have it anyways WO HO HO. Magic.

I've tried the extreme grip only once. I had to bend my knees a lot to hit a decent ball. I actually slammed my left knee on the ground and decided never to do it again. Whatever net clearance you get out of it isn't worth it.

Great thread, very informative, I'll try out some of your suggestions next time I'm on court! How about transitioning between a one handed topspin and slice backhand, would you guys advocate a grip change? In the past, several coaches have taught me to hit my slice backhand with a continental grip (initially when I was mostly a s&v player on grass). However, I have found that I naturally tend to over-extend my wrist when I hit a slice, creating a 'V' between my hand an my wrist. If I do that using a continental grip I tend to cut under the ball with a very open face instead of driving through it, resulting in a very spinny shot with very little pace, almost a drop shot.

Recently, I've been experimenting with using my normal eastern backhand grip (still need to figure out exactly where my heel pad is on it...), and when I then extend my wrist, I open the racket face just enough to get a nice deep, biting slice (ideally, of course). It also makes transitioning between an intended topspin backhand to a last ditch slice a little bit easier. What would you guys recommend, keep going with the eastern backheand grip on my slice backhand, or stay with the continental and learn not to extend my wrist (easier said than done...)?

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You should keep your wrist stable on the slice. Your arm should be straight at contact and sweep across your body on the follow through. Look at Federer and Steffi Graf, GOAT level slices there.

You should slice with continental so that you won't need to do something awkward with your wrist. It should be close the the same grip as your bh volley.

As for changing your mind at the last second, that's just a matter of learning to read the ball better, move better, and/or increasing your "strike zone" on your 1hbh drive.

I keep a continental grip on the topspin and slice more because I'm too lazy to change.

I'm 5'11" and my brother is 6'3" and always hits high to my back hand. He occasionally throws a fast one in there so it's easier for me to keep a continental grip.

By the way, I'm only 18 years old and LOVE to serve/volley and chip/charge. I find that the modern game and anything referring to it (grips, rackets, string, etc.) requires a bit of work.

The modern game requires a decent amount of athleticism when setting up for shots and hitting out in front. A conservative grip requires less of the two, but if you have it anyways WO HO HO. Magic.

I've tried the extreme grip only once. I had to bend my knees a lot to hit a decent ball. I actually slammed my left knee on the ground and decided never to do it again. Whatever net clearance you get out of it isn't worth it.

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Keep in mind that Dimitrov uses a continental on both his slice and topspin, BUT on the topspin shot he moves the heelpad of his palm further behind the handle. Both are still considered "Continental", but one is for slice/volleys, the other is for drives/topspin.

I'm not sure i agree with you LeeD. i think as long as your backhand topspin and slice grips are not too different than you should be ok in my opinion. So eastern backhand (1st bevel index knuckle-8th bevel healpad) and continental aren't that far away. Only 1 bevel or so.

Changing grips is easy as I always hold the throat of my racquet with my non-dominant hand during my shoulder turn.

The biggest difference in grip change is between forehand and topspin backhand.
The strikepoint difference between slice backhand taken late, and topspin backhand taken early, makes for confusion in the brain.
Most top pros, when they slice, use a completely different grip than their topspin backhand grip.