Sekha wrote:We are saying the same thing. The Buddha uses mental defilements to end mental defilements. And chanda, tanha, lobha etc. all cease with Nibbana. So, the path leads to the cessation of them all.

Sekha

We are not saying the same thing because I did not say chanda (dhammic devotion) is a mental defilement (kilesa). Please re-read my post. Chanda is a path factor, similar to saddha (trust).

Furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Whatever qualities there are in the fourth jhana — a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness; singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, chanda, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Sekha wrote:Just the same way as the path uses desire (chanda) as a basis for the four right strivings that lead ultimately to the cessation of desire.

(...)Chanda is not necessarily craving & can be lokuttara. My recollection is the discourse about chandha ending chanda was spoken by Ananda, who was prone to error. Nibbana is the destruction of craving (tanha) rather than the destruction of chanda (zeal; path devotion).

JhanaStream wrote:
We are not saying the same thing because I did not say chanda (dhammic devotion) is a mental defilement (kilesa). Please re-read my post. Chanda is a path factor, similar to saddha (trust).

I guess you're saying chanda is not necessarily unwholesome, and in that case I don't know if we can label it a mental defilement. But anyway, my original statement was correct and together with Ananda's discourse, it is supported by SN 51.15:

Kim·atthiyaṃ samaṇe gotame brahma·cariyaṃ vussatī ti?
For what purpose is the brahmic life lived under the ascetic Gotama?

Chanda·p·pahān·atthaṃ kho, brāhmaṇa, bhagavati brahma·cariyaṃ vussatī ti.
It is for the purpose of abandoning desire, brahman, that the brahmic life is lived under the ascetic Gotama.

oops I just realized that SN 51.15 is also uttered by Ananda.
But I don't think you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was an arahant.
Anyway, chanda, chandaraga, raga, tanha, lobha, abhijjha - all those terms certainly have subtle differences (and they must have had some from one kingdom to another even at the time of the Buddha) but they basically all mean more or less the same thing, as do the words desire, craving, avidity, covetousness, greed, lust etc.

Sekha wrote:But I don't think you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was an arahant.

My understanding is Ananda was not an arahant when that discourse was reported to have been spoken. Ananda reportedly attained arahantship after Buddha's passing.

Sekha wrote:I guess you're saying chanda is not necessarily unwholesome, and in that case I don't know if we can label it a mental defilement. But anyway, my original statement was correct and together with Ananda's discourse...

Obviously Ananda's discourse does not match these utterings below:

In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power [which include chandha]... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks.

MN 118

There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on chanda & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This chanda of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind.

When a monk has thus developed & pursued the four bases of power, he experiences manifold supranormal powers...he hears — by means of the divine ear-element...he knows the citta of other beings...he recollects his manifold past nivesa...by means of the divine eye he discerns...through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free citta-release & discernment-release, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now...this is how these four bases of power [which include chanda], when developed & pursued, are of great fruit & great benefit.

SN 51.20

Sekha wrote:Anyway, chanda, chandaraga, raga, tanha, lobha, abhijjha - all those terms certainly have subtle differences but they basically all mean more or less the same thing, as do the words desire, craving, avidity, covetousness, greed, lust etc.

That is not so. Chanda is a generic term, which can be used in a two-fold sense, either wholesome or unwholesome. Where as the other terms are exclusively unwholesome. Of the following verse, the original commentaries interpreted it as thus:

Sekha wrote:But I don't think you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was an arahant.

My understanding is Ananda was not an arahant when that discourse was reported to have been spoken. Ananda reportedly attained arahantship after Buddha's passing.

ok... and how do you prove that?
And even if you can, do you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was a sotapanna?

JhanaStream wrote:

Sekha wrote:I guess you're saying chanda is not necessarily unwholesome, and in that case I don't know if we can label it a mental defilement. But anyway, my original statement was correct and together with Ananda's discourse...

Obviously Ananda's discourse does not match these utterings below:

In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power [which include chandha]... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks.

MN 118

There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on chanda & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This chanda of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind.

When a monk has thus developed & pursued the four bases of power, he experiences manifold supranormal powers...he hears — by means of the divine ear-element...he knows the citta of other beings...he recollects his manifold past nivesa...by means of the divine eye he discerns...through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free citta-release & discernment-release, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now...this is how these four bases of power [which include chanda], when developed & pursued, are of great fruit & great benefit.

SN 51.20

well.. I don't see where the contradiction is.. You seem to consider that chanda is something like a bag that the meditator keeps filling and which therefore becomes ever bigger. I think we need to implement the understanding of inconstancy here. My understanding is that one develops every time a different type of chanda, that gets constantly refined along the way, and which is tailored to the type and 'size' of the defilements it aims to eradicate, and at the end, since the defilements have become so weak and 'small', chanda becomes so subtle that it eventually vanishes.

See in support of this vision, and of SN 51.15, the simile of the raft:

"Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. [7] Having crossed over to the further shore, he might think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having hoisted it on my head or carrying on my back, go wherever I like?' What do you think, monks: Would the man, in doing that, be doing what should be done with the raft?"

"No, lord."

"And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done with the raft? There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas."

At AN 4.159, Ananda uses the same line of reasoning, explaining in dependence on craving, one abandons craving; in dependence on conceit, one abandons conceit. Thus, in 51.15, Ananda seems to be using chanda in the unwholesome sense, despite the discourse appearing in the Iddhipada Samyutta, which are wholesome.

I think the onus rests upon you, to demonstrate Buddha taught in dependence on craving, one abandons craving.

Sekha wrote:And even if you can, do you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was a sotapanna?

ok... and how do you prove that Ananda was a sotapanna when these discourses were uttered?

Sekha wrote:See in support of this vision, and of SN 51.15, the simile of the raft:

My response here is simply you have quoted MN 22 out of context. I read MN 22 as explaining good dhammas are not attached to & used for attacking others and for defending in debate. I read MN 22 as not explaining the mind of the arahant become void of good dhammas, such as void of wisdom. MN 12 reports:

Sariputta, even if you have to carry me about on a bed, still there will be no change in the lucidity of the Tathagata's wisdom.

At AN 4.159, Ananda uses the same line of reasoning, explaining in dependence on craving, one abandons craving; in dependence on conceit, one abandons conceit. Thus, in 51.15, Ananda seems to be using chanda in the unwholesome sense, despite the discourse appearing in the Iddhipada Samyutta, which are wholesome.

so what? Anyone will agree that Ananda knows better than you the meaning of chanda! Why could it not have both a wholesome as well as an unwholesome side, just like the word 'desire'?

JhanaStream wrote:
I think the onus rests upon you, to demonstrate Buddha taught in dependence on craving, one abandons craving.

This is quite easy, my friend. In dependence on the four right strivings, ie. in dependence on chanda, one cultivates dispassion, which is described at AN 10.60 for example:

There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications (= sabba·saṅkhāra·samatha), the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, Unbinding.' This is called the perception of dispassion.

And since chanda is a saṅkhāra, it is abandoned like any other saṅkhāra. So on dependence on chanda, one eventually abandons chanda. Simple.

JhanaStream wrote:

Sekha wrote:And even if you can, do you seriously want to say that you know and see the Dhamma as well as Pali language better than Ananda did when he was a sotapanna?

ok... and how do you prove that Ananda was a sotapanna when these discourses were uttered?

well, you're right, I can't prove it either. But the contrary is just very improbable, and on the other hand, since there is no mention of the Buddha in the introduction, this sutta has most probably been uttered after his passing away, that is when Ananda was an arahant, provided it is true that he actually became one soon after, just before the first council.

And anyway, who are you to say that Ananda was wrong, and that you know the Dhamma better than him? You need some pretty damn good backup for such a claim, and you come up with rather weak evidences.

JhanaStream wrote:

Sekha wrote:See in support of this vision, and of SN 51.15, the simile of the raft:

My response here is simply you have quoted MN 22 out of context. I read MN 22 as explaining good dhammas are not attached to & used for attacking others and for defending in debate. I read MN 22 is not explaining the mind of the arahant become void of good dhammas, such as void of wisdom.

The simile of the raft says that having used the Dhamma, one lets go of it. Just as having used chanda as a basis for the four right strivings, one lets go of it. I repeat what I said just above, and of which you don't seem to have taken any note: the wholesome chanda is not like a bag that keeps being filled with wholesome stuff. It appears to be rather like a knife that gets sharpened all the time until it gets completely worn out and disappears.

Last edited by Sekha on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sekha wrote: Anyone will agree that Ananda knows better than you the meaning of chanda! Why could it not have both a wholesome as well as an unwholesome side, just like the word 'desire'?

You are certainly not taking a firm refuge there, to rely on Ananda, who was prone to many misunderstandings in the Nikayas. As for your 2nd point, since when did craving (tanha) have whoelsome side?

Sekha wrote:...since there is no mention of the Buddha in the introduction, this sutta has most probably been uttered after his passing away, that is when Ananda was an arahant

For me, the evidence stacks up against this. In AN 4.159, it seems an affected bhikkhuni came to Ananda to flirt with him. If Ananda was an arahant, it is questionable whether that would have occured. Regardless, I already gave the opportunity for you to provide evidence for many of your claims, to which you did not respond, such as:

1. providing a sutta where the 1st sort of right view resulted in Nibbana

2. provide a discourse where Buddha taught craving & conceit are a means for their abandonment

As for your other assertions, about the 'calming/stilling of sankhara', I may possibly suggest another interpretation on another occassion.

ok never mind, my friend. This discussion has gone far off topic, you are not consistent in your statements and you seem to merely aim at using any means to contradict me. I won't keep arguing in these conditions.

Sekha wrote:...since there is no mention of the Buddha in the introduction, this sutta has most probably been uttered after his passing away, that is when Ananda was an arahant

For me, the evidence stacks up against this. In AN 4.159, it seems an affected bhikkhuni came to Ananda to flirt with him. If Ananda was an arahant, it is questionable whether that would have occured.

To add. It is stated Ananda was the same age as the Buddha. Thus, do we believe a bhikkhuni, affected by sexual lust, called upon Ananda at age 80 or more, when he was arahant?

His unique position had already begun before his birth. He came to earth, just as the Buddha did, from the Tusita heaven, and was born on the same day as he and in the same caste, namely the warrior caste of the royal family of the Sakyas. Their fathers were brothers, so that Ananda was the Buddha's cousin. He had three brothers, Anuruddha, Mahanama, Pandu, and one sister, Rohini.

Ananda: The Guardian of the Dhamma: by Hellmuth Hecker

This Dhamma discourse on the Great Forty has been set rolling and cannot be stopped by any contemplative or brahman or deva or Mara and Brahma or anyone at all in the world.

If any brahman or contemplative might think that this Great Forty Dhamma discourse should be censured & rejected, there are ten legitimate implications of his statement that would form grounds for censuring him here & now.

There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications (= sabba·saṅkhāra·samatha), the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, Unbinding.' This is called the perception of dispassion.

And since chanda is a saṅkhāra, it is abandoned like any other saṅkhāra. So on dependence on chanda, one eventually abandons chanda. Simple.

The word 'sankhara' has many applications & meanings. It is possibly the broadest word in the Pali.

Take for example the description of the death of an arahant. It shows a certain kind of sankhara does not cease when the arahant is living.

"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications (sankhara)... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is dukkha. That which is dukkha has ceased and gone to its end."

"Very good, my friend Yamaka. Very good.

Yamaka Sutta

Therefore, in the phase sabbasaṅkhārasamatho, the appropriate meaning of sankhara must be discerned. Also, samatho is generally taken to mean 'calmed' rather than 'destroyed". In short, our interpretation may not necessarily be correct, therefore, there is no need to cling to our personal view about mere theory.

JhanaStream wrote:
I think the onus rests upon you, to demonstrate Buddha taught in dependence on craving, one abandons craving.

This is quite easy, my friend. In dependence on the four right strivings, ie. in dependence on chanda, one cultivates dispassion, which is described at AN 10.60 for example:

There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications (= sabba·saṅkhāra·samatha), the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, Unbinding.' This is called the perception of dispassion.

And since chanda is a saṅkhāra, it is abandoned like any other saṅkhāra. So on dependence on chanda, one eventually abandons chanda. Simple.

well, according to this reasoning in bold, one can say
"And since lobha (or dosa) is a saṅkhāra, it is abandoned like any other saṅkhāra. So on dependence on lobha (or dosa), one eventually abandons lobha (or dosa)."

it seems that craving might be lobha or chanda-rāga or kāma tanha but not dhamma chanda

the 4 'wrong paths' are: the path of greed (chanda), of hate, of delusion, of cowardice (bhaya). "One who is freed from evil impulses is no longer liable to take the wrong path of greed, etc.''