Ramon1920 wrote:So you recommend not caring about whether or not you get samadhi even though every legitimate Buddhist school stresses putting effort into gaining samadhi?

While I can't know which schools of Buddhism you personally find legitimate, I can tell you that quite a few Buddhist school warn students about the dangers of becoming too proud of and attached to different types of samadhis they have experienced.

Soto Zen Buddhists, for example, don't seek after any special meditation experiences at all and simply practice a meditation without object which continuously involves letting go of all grasping.

Tibetan Buddhism specifically warns about these things. Here is a quote from "The Words of My Perfect Teacher," page 250:"Concentration is of three kinds: the concentration practiced by ordinary beings, concentration which clearly discerns and the excellent concentration of the Tathagatas.

The concentration practiced by ordinary beings. When you are attached to the experiences of bliss, clarity and absence of thought in meditation and intentionally seek them, or your practice is colored by any affinity for experiences, that is called the concentration practiced by ordinary beings.

Clearly discerning concentration. When you are free from any attachment to meditative experiences and are no longer fascinated by concentration, but still cling to emptiness as an antidote, that is called clearly discerning concentration.

The excellent concentration of the Tathagatas When you no longer have any concept of emptiness as an antidote, but remain in a concept-free concentration on the nature of reality, that is called the excellent concentration of the Tathagatas."

Excellent quote. I must read WOMPT again. It was one of the books that helped me a lot with Tibetan buddhism.

Luke wrote:The excellent concentration of the Tathagatas When you no longer have any concept of emptiness as an antidote, but remain in a concept-free concentration on the nature of reality, that is called the excellent concentration of the Tathagatas."

And this is our true destination as Vajra practitioners. No?

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

You are right in anticipating my leanings when it comes to Soto Zen, I do not consider them a legitimate Buddhist school, nor do I know of anyone reputable that does.

Neyyatha Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata."

I do not have a copy of that book you quoted so I cannot check the context right now. The point you are making with it is not relevant because we're talking about people who don't have any concentration yet. Basically the point you're trying to make is don't meditate unless it's perfect. Meditation does not work like that; meditation is a skill that is refined over years and years of effort. With meditation you start with an irritated irrational mind and gradually refine it into a clean and powerful one. Teachers give these lists of gradations and tell you the top gradation is best, there is nothing wrong with that. The problem comes when other people misconstrue the meaning to be, "avoid all the gradations lower". That's like telling someone to walk up some stairs but don't walk on any of the steps but the top one.

Or it's like if you were becoming a doctor and someone told you that you're only really a practicing medical doctor when you get your state license. It would be wrong to assume that you could go straight to the licensing board to become certified. You need a BS or BA degree, you need to pass the MCAT, you need to go through medical school and take 4 stages of examinations, then you need to go to the residency program, you may also need special schooling for surgery, and then after all these stages of progress you can get your state license.

You have to put effort into the concentration, you have to have resolve, you have to have the intention.

Ramon1920 wrote:You are right in anticipating my leanings when it comes to Soto Zen, I do not consider them a legitimate Buddhist school, nor do I know of anyone reputable that does.

...with the possible exception of the several millions of people who are in it:

Wikipedia wrote:Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without interference.

The Japanese brand of the sect was imported in the 13th century by Dōgen Zenji, who studied Caodong Buddhism (Chinese: 曹洞宗; pinyin: Cáodòng Zōng) abroad in China. Dōgen is remembered today as the co-patriarch of Sōtō Zen in Japan along with Keizan Jōkin.

With about 14,000 temples, Sōtō is one of the largest Japanese Buddhist organizations. Sōtō Zen is now also popular in the West, and in 1996 priests of the Sōtō Zen tradition formed the Soto Zen Buddhist Association based in North America.

I agree that the idea of 'just sitting' is often misconstrued, which is amazing, considering what a simple idea it is. I do notice a tendency to exploit the Soto idea of 'just sitting' to rationalize and re-inforce the eg, but ego can do that with any teaching whatever. But I have learned a lot from Soto zen teachers, not least the excellent book To Meet the Real Dragon by Gudo Nishijima, and it is a school I hold in high esteem.

With meditation you start with an irritated irrational mind and gradually refine it into a clean and powerful one.

This view is also subject to criticism on the basis that the irrational mind never 'becomes' perfect at all. It simply has to wither away, and pure mind, which was there all along, will then be evident. After all, what is ultimately true has never not been real.

None of which has anything whatever to do with the OP, but I felt the need to respond.

Sometimes spirituality is a liberation, and sometimes it's an alibi ~ David Brazier

Ramon1920 wrote:You are right in anticipating my leanings when it comes to Soto Zen, I do not consider them a legitimate Buddhist school, nor do I know of anyone reputable that does.

??? I didn't write anything against Soto Zen Buddhism. I just couldn't quickly think of a quote of theirs which warned about making too much of samadhi experiences. I admire Dogen, the founder of Soto Zen, as well as some other Soto Zen teachers a great deal, but that's another topic...

Ramon1920 wrote: Basically the point you're trying to make is don't meditate unless it's perfect.

Not at all. Imperfect meditation is fine and can have many benefits. The point is just not to become attached to blissful feelings or amazing experiences which occur during meditation. If they come up, fine. Just experience them and then let them go without regret. If a person gets into the mindset of "Damnit! I don't feel as magically blissful as I did yesterday!" then that just becomes an obstacle. Also, if a meditator thinks, "Oh wow! I had a vision of this-or-that! I must be very special!" this can also be an obstacle.

Ramon1920 wrote:Teachers give these lists of gradations and tell you the top gradation is best, there is nothing wrong with that. The problem comes when other people misconstrue the meaning to be, "avoid all the gradations lower".

I never said that. And the quote didn't say that. You are projecting a lot of your own ideas onto what you read.

Anyway, I'm not trying to force you into thinking a certain way. I was just giving you another perspective.

jeeprs wrote:...the irrational mind never 'becomes' perfect at all. It simply has to wither away, and pure mind, which was there all along, will then be evident. After all, what is ultimately true has never not been real.

Hence the distinction in between "mind" and the "nature of mind".

jeeprs wrote:None of which has anything whatever to do with the OP, but I felt the need to respond.

Don't worry so much about the OP, since he/she put a naive question and then disappeared.

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

idontknow wrote:hi i am new to life and was just wondering about the general Buddhist attitude towards something that I find to be the most pleasureful and rewarding experience known to our human race.

so I guess my question is, what about consensual sex?

My 2 cents as one general Buddhist of 47 years practice: consensual sex is fine to enjoy (it is how we are hard wired) but with your eyes open as to the responsibilities involved.

If you, or your lover, become attached to "pleasurable sensation" then, as time goes on, it it is easy to get sidetracked on this aspect, as opposed to "intimacy," or a spiritual path, as a goal of consensual sex. You, or your lover, might become addicted to pleasurable sensation. There are specific techniques within Buddhism to overcome addiction to pleasurable sensation. Each branch of Buddhism will have its own methods.

If you, or your lover, become attached to the emotional co-arising good feelings (LOVE) that are associated with consensual sex, then when circumstances change, and you fall out of love, or your lover falls out of love, then jealousy, attachment and aversion can arise along with anger and ill will. Then what happened to your great love of even wanting to share the same toilet seat? Perhaps many murders have been committed in the name of love, and a few divorce settlements too.

If you, or your lover, while mutually agreed to practice "safe sex," spiritual or otherwise, get sleepy or are less than fully aware because of drugs or alcohol or just being tired, then it is VERY easy to make a mistake that can leave each of you with the sexually transmitted diseases of the other, and in heterosexual consensual sex, one of you pregnant and facing the issue of having a child or an abortion.

So, from the point of view of responsible enjoyment you might justify having as much consensual sex as you would like, with the caveat of who do you know who can maintain the three "eye open" responsibilities 24/7.

As posted in this thread, some consider absorption in the Buddhist states of contemplation, to be more pleasurable: some become monks and nuns (avoiding the issue through vows), and some become Tantric practitioners, some branches of which uses consensual sex as the path.

There is much material published on the general subject.

If you search on Amazon for "Buddhism and sex" you find many interesting books: some practical and explicit to those general and theoretical.

"Bliss is generated within the central channel four finger widths below the navel. This is the Chandli, the source of all body warmth. During sexual intercourse the Chandali vibrates a little and heat arises:the red letter a at the Chandali begins to vibrate slightly, causing the heat to move up the central channel and melt a white upside down ham near the top of the central channel four fingers width below the crown of the head. As the heat rises from the a shaped nerve center, it melts a little bit of the white ham, causing the usual type of male and female pleasure to be generated. In the mantra system, this process of the rising heat is used to generate the four joys. When the heat rising from the letter a actually melts part of the ham and the drops descend to the throat center, the stage of joy is generated. Sexual pleasure is a mere symbol of the bliss generated at this time. The duration and strength of this bliss far surpass ordinary sexual experience. When the drops of the melted ham arrive at the heart center, special bliss is experienced. When they arrive at the navel center, one experiences supreme joy and when they reach the secret center, innate joy is generated. A man who is skilled in this practice does not emit any semen, Instead he draws a refined form of it up through the central channel and spreads it out among the spokes of the channel centers, and again generates the four joys. Females generate these joys by drawing a refined element of the menstrual blood up through the central channel. In either sex, the ability to move these substances up and down along the central channel requires a great degree of mastery over the winds and through a familiarization with the stage of generation. If one is skilled in this practice, no children are conceived. However, union of male and female is not the only way to generate such bliss. Monks and so forth who have taken a vow not to engage in sexual union have methods of accomplishing this practice solely through creative imagination."

In the Tibetan System such things are usually taught within the Tsa Lung subject area.

1. karmamudra is for controlling a particular energy. When you develop the skill you're done.2. jhanamudra, the visualized version, is not just for monastics, most people do it that way I think.3. karmamudra is not sex in any other sense than 2 organs meet. If you were to do normal sex, you'd be breaking your vows if you have them. 4. karma/jhana mudra is an exercise that comes towards the end of several auxillary practices on top of your regular HYT sadhanas. Most people don't even know about the body of teachings karmamudra comes from.5. people publish texts publicly because they assume karma and dharmapalas will sort out who obtains copies and because a lot of shameless people have published bogus commentaries on tantra that it's become necessary to counter the ridiculous misrepresentations spread by the ignorant.6. Tantra is not, "let's have a few beers and mess around".

Being as old as I am, I face no criticism when I tell young people that my generation, by and large, were just playing pretend when it comes to Buddhism and they should ignore all our advice unless it comes with a reference to a sutra, tantra, or valid commentary.

If you all knew the nonsense that went on and how foolish we were! Just thinking about it makes me blush and cover my face with embarrassment.

1. karmamudra is for controlling a particular energy. When you develop the skill you're done.2. jhanamudra, the visualized version, is not just for monastics, most people do it that way I think.3. karmamudra is not sex in any other sense than 2 organs meet. If you were to do normal sex, you'd be breaking your vows if you have them. 4. karma/jhana mudra is an exercise that comes towards the end of several auxillary practices on top of your regular HYT sadhanas. Most people don't even know about the body of teachings karmamudra comes from.5. people publish texts publicly because they assume karma and dharmapalas will sort out who obtains copies and because a lot of shameless people have published bogus commentaries on tantra that it's become necessary to counter the ridiculous misrepresentations spread by the ignorant.6. Tantra is not, "let's have a few beers and mess around".

Being as old as I am, I face no criticism when I tell young people that my generation, by and large, were just playing pretend when it comes to Buddhism and they should ignore all our advice unless it comes with a reference to a sutra, tantra, or valid commentary.

If you all knew the nonsense that went on and how foolish we were! Just thinking about it makes me blush and cover my face with embarrassment.

Yup and perhaps. The "Yup" is because what Ramon is saying is completely true from his experience and knowledge.

Perhaps, from one very foolish old guys' point of view:

there is normal consensual sex which is fine if you have your 3 awarenesses and responsibilities as listed above,

there can be Tantric consensual sex which includes the 3 awarenesses and responsibilities as listed above,

and perhaps there are other possibilities.

In the holy tradition that is followed by Ramon, his #4 is very true: "karma/jhana mudra is an exercise that comes towards the end of several auxillary practices on top of your regular HYT sadhanas. Most people don't even know about the body of teachings karmamudra comes from."

In the holy Tantric traditions of Tibet, Nyingmapa, Geylugpa, Kargyudpa, Sakyapa, and Bon, perhaps it is like that, and incorporated with your regular HYT, Highest Yoga Tantra, sadhanas.

Perhaps there are other Tibetan Buddhist traditions.

Perhaps In the holy Dzogchen tradition, such things are viewed from the viewpoint of integration through "instant presence," with what arises in your continuum. In the holy Dzogchen tradition of ChNNR, the tablam practices are a "secondary" practice, and taught within the Terma practices of the Longsal Thugtig of Jnanadakini.

This last includes,"The Wish-Fulfilling Jewel, Thigle of the Mind of the Guru Wisdom Dakini."

In the holy teachings of ChNNR, access to the "secondary practices" are restricted to anyone who is a "Member" of the Dzogchen Community and has had transmission for that practice, from the Master. An in-person, or over the web, co-temporaneous lung, is required before practice. That is all: no Nundro, Lama, Yidim, Khandro, completions are required.

To put this in context, (I am paraphrasing what I remember from ChNNR's teaching):

Perhaps the main practice is Guruyoga. Perhaps if you are interested in one of the secondary practices and you have this real knowledge, when you do the secondary practices as Guruyoga, then even they become main practices. Perhaps in this way secondary practices can become very important. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The key point, in Dzogchen, is to first have the primary practice of Guru Yoga, direct introduction transmission, from a Dzogchen Master, and the lung transmission for a specific practice, before you can practice any practice as a secondary practice, including the Longsal Thugtig of Jnanadakini.

So, while Ramon is exactly correct from within his holy tradition of Buddhist practice when he states in, "#1. karmamudra is for controlling a particular energy. When you develop the skill you're done."

So, to go back to the OP's question, perhaps there are several "views" as to how Buddhists view consensual sex.

I truly believe that it is possible to find a suitable partner and practice "integration with sensation," with your eyes open as to the responsibilities, in a Buddhist context, as a Dzogchen Community secondary practice, as often as both you and your partner should choose to.

I truly believe that there are many couples who are practicing in this way, right now, without attachment and with great enjoyment. Perhaps great enjoyment is also empty of self nature, and with that understanding is just fine, whether in a Ganachakra, single couple, or alone, but keep your eyes open.

Perhaps with the advent of the web, a responsible position is to explain things to newcomers, rather than to restrict access, because perhaps there are no secrets anymore except for what is self-secret and revealed only in experience gained through practice.

Perhaps it is also empty of self nature, and a completely correct path leading to full enlightenment, to become a monk or nun, keep strict vows, and find complete great enjoyment through the unsupported Samadhi of the Jnanas. Of course there are also many other Holy Buddhist paths leading to full enlightenment.