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It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

OK, here is a track from a commercially released CD that I also did in 2002 for the avant-garde Jazz composer and instrumentalist (saxophones, flute other wind instruments and percussion), Roscoe Mitchell. Mr. Mitchell has been my client since 1978. He maintains a home in Madison, Wisconsin but in 2007, Mitchell was named Darius Milhaud Chair of Composition at Mills College in Oakland, California, where he currently lives, returning to Madison for the Summer months.

This music will definitely not appeal to everyone but I enjoy it immensely as I do many forms of music. There are two pianos, a Yamaha C6 and a Kawai RX-3. One is heard on the right channel, the other on the left but I don't know which is which. These pianos were tuned in the EBVT but contained the modifications that were eventually codified as the EBVT III. In other words, I knew at that time what to do to make the original EBVT a bit milder but I had not yet figured out a way to put it in writing.

The pianos sound excellent. Anyone who says anything derogatory about the tuning is not listening, IMHO. This is very fine hard jazz. Thanks for posting it! Now, I'm going to have to go back to the liberry and check out some CDs!

I spent several hours last night listening to jazz recordings from the library--Joshua Redman, Tord Gustavsen, Ralph Petersen, after weeks of really studying EBVT III with my non-tuner-trained ears, and listening to almost nothing else but EBVT III (including practicing on my own piano), except for some comparison recordings that are in this thread, as well as some recordings posted to Member Recordings in Pianist Corner on Piano World.*

So after weeks of EBVT III immersion, here is what struck me about the pianos in the jazz recordings I listened to last night, which I assume were ET. The ET has a "down" quality, where the EBVT III has an "up" quality. Don't get me wrong, the pianos were tuned well and sounded lovely. Some of the music was very melodic and lyrical and some of it was quite challenging. But the ET sounded kind of "down" and "tired," like it couldn't "get up and go," where the EBVT III strikes me as "up" and "healthy." Even on the heart-wrenching pieces like the Chopin (in this thread, p.1, first post, selection 3), or "Age of Innocence" (p.3), or "Clair de Lune" (p.4) there is a healthy, vibrant quality to the tuning that comes through the emotion expressed in the playing.

Just wanted to report the experience, for the sake of discussion.

--Andy

________*Most recordings in Pianist Corner Member Recordings are done on pianos that are--less than freshly tuned. There is one notable exception. ChrisKeys posted his performance of Respighi's "Notturno" this week on his freshly tuned Baldwin L. It is a beautiful performance and worth listening to.

Have been away from this thread for awhile...Bill, that last Jazz recording was great. It's nice for a change to hear Jazz that is a bit dissonant. I thought the piano sounded great in the mix.

Chris, nice playing! I have that with Earl Wild playing on the LX...will have to record that in EBVT III and post it at some point in the future for a tuning comparison.

Here is an interesting tuning comparison between EBVT III and ET. I think I have a few more of these Eric Reed comparisons I can post later.

As I was going back through my recordings, I came across this Jazz recording of Eric Reed playing "Oh Danny Boy". I originally recorded this back in Dec, 2009, in ET, then again in March of 2010 in EBVT III. The performance is exactly the same other than the temperaments, however, in the ET recording I used the Rode NT5 mics and the Zoom H4, and in the EBVT III recording, the Avenson STO-2 mics and the Korg MR-1000. Also, the back-action/damper tray was changed to the WN&Gross composite system in the EBVT III recording.

With those differences in recording equipment in mind, you can hear the differences in how the 2 temperaments affect the music. As I have said before, I find more colors and a more earthy sound to the EBVT III temperament.

Here is an interesting tuning comparison between EBVT III and ET. I think I have a few more of these Eric Reed comparisons I can post later.

With those differences in recording equipment in mind, you can hear the differences in how the 2 temperaments affect the music. As I have said before, I find more colors and a more earthy sound to the EBVT III temperament.

Ah HAH! I see right through the trickery here! You used better microphones for the EBVT III just to make ET sound bad. It's all a set up!

Hello GP, I am back to work today but have time for a short break before I have to tune two more pianos. I will listen to the other recordings posted here this evening.

I had time to compare the two Danny Boy recordings. The RCT version sounds just fine. It is what we expect to hear. It is the reason I knew you would be worthwhile to help, you clearly have the ability to tune your own piano. The EBVT III adds some infectious depth to the sonorities. It is like the difference between a packaged, frozen food entree and one prepared by a skilled chef with the finest of fresh ingredients.

I truly believe that the reason some people reject the EBVT III outright is that they know they will get hooked on it but it goes against everything they have always known and were taught. They are afraid of getting involved with it and the trouble it would cause them if they started going around doing it. I've never had any such trouble, of course, only success. Like the Wizard of Oz said, all you need is a brain, a heart and some courage. You've always had them, you just needed to find them.

I'll post some more recordings I have tonight too. Nick and Patrick, where are you?

I have tuned the EBVT III for two customers who are audiophiles and were absolutely thrilled. I am told that recordings have been made, and will be shared.

For my own purposes I plan to make some of my own recordings, and will use the EBVT III also. It has just been not too long ago since my last recording session. I promise what I think will be spectacular results! At least that is what I and my customers think about the way the pianos sound.

I do have a question/observation and I wondered if it was accurate, and thought it might benefit others on this thread; so I will post it here rather than send to you as a private message.

In establishing the framework in EBVT III of the 4 rapidly beating intervals, it is obviously very important to nail the 6 beats per second, especially because you are going to match this beat rate to the other intervals.

As I am doing this aurally and getting comfortable with this tuning, there obviously has been some slight variation in my results. It has occured to me that if my beat rate is not quite as fast as the true 6 bps, I will be on the edge of dissonance in some chords. And conversely, if I am slightly more than 6 bps, it will just not sound as special, more like ET. I got this clue from the inverted thirds (relative to ET) sounding either too inverted or not enough, when of course they need to be 'just right'. Does this make any sense?

GP,In the Danny Boy samples, I replayed the opening three notes over and over again until my non-tuner-trained ears caught it.

The ET is "wongy" as the notes sustain. The EBVT III is calm and clear. The beautiful dissonance of the "chord" is there in both samples, but it pulses like a head-ache in the ET, and it does not in the EBVT III.

Nick, It does not surprise me that your 2 audiophile customers are thrilled with EBVT III.

Isaac, what is your point with a video such as that? I thought I was going to see and hear something worthwhile when I clicked on your link. Again, what is your point in posting that video here? Am I missing something?

I do have a question/observation and I wondered if it was accurate, and thought it might benefit others on this thread; so I will post it here rather than send to you as a private message.

In establishing the framework in EBVT III of the 4 rapidly beating intervals, it is obviously very important to nail the 6 beats per second, especially because you are going to match this beat rate to the other intervals.

As I am doing this aurally and getting comfortable with this tuning, there obviously has been some slight variation in my results. It has occured to me that if my beat rate is not quite as fast as the true 6 bps, I will be on the edge of dissonance in some chords. And conversely, if I am slightly more than 6 bps, it will just not sound as special, more like ET. I got this clue from the inverted thirds (relative to ET) sounding either too inverted or not enough, when of course they need to be 'just right'. Does this make any sense?

Thanks,

Nick

I am getting behind with all of this because of what happened on Monday but the good news is that I will be getting a brand new car within a few days.

Yes, Nick, you are right about what you observe. Obviously, you can't know for sure whether one of your intervals is really 6.000000 beats per second or 5.9736542 or 6.000123 but the mathematical calculations and Jason Kanter's graphs are based on exactly 6.0 beats per second.

I actually wrote an 18th Century style well temperament with basically the same sequence except that you start with 4 equal beating intervals each at 4 beats per second. You could do the same with 5 beats per second. Each would have its own sound but as you have guessed, the slower those first 4 intervals beat, the harsher (more dissonant) the wider M3s will be.

If you had 4 starting intervals at 7 beats per second and followed the same scheme, you would end up with a quasi equal temperament that would not have that special magic that the EBVT or EBVT III has. You do get the best results in nailing the initial 6 beats per second and subsequently getting all other equal beating intervals as equal beating as possible. The two pure intervals need to be very pure and not wide and also not having any hint of narrowness.

The outer octaves that equalize octaves and 5ths and double octaves and octave-5ths also contribute to the overall purity of the piano sound.

I was just thinking about this very subject, Bill - still trying to get it right.

When I am setting the EBVT III temperament, no matter how close I get to 6bps on the key intervals, F#-A#, C#-F, and D#-G are wide, making the common keys of Ab, Fmin, Db, Bbmin, Eb, and Ebmin, Cmin sound somewhat harsh - and of course it gets worse the more I stretch the octaves, etc. If I go less than what I calculate as 6bps, it messes with the "pipe-organ" effect when playing arpeggios in the keys of C, G, and F...

Any idea what I am doing wrong? I've been using a metronome set at 120 and count 3bps on those key intervals to get them set. Also, I go back and ensure the pure intervals are as close as I can get them that way.

I went back to the recordings I made of "The Age of Innocence" in ET from my ETD that has both the Reyburn Cyber Tuner and the Stopper Only Pure programs installed. I posted these 2 recordings in a previous thread comparing the 2 temperaments. I now have my IPhone/Tunelab tuning of this piece in EBVT III. Here are all 3 for an interesting comparison.

I was just thinking about this very subject, Bill - still trying to get it right.

When I am setting the EBVT III temperament, no matter how close I get to 6bps on the key intervals, F#-A#, C#-F, and D#-G are wide, making the common keys of Ab, Fmin, Db, Bbmin, Eb, and Ebmin, Cmin sound somewhat harsh - and of course it gets worse the more I stretch the octaves, etc. If I go less than what I calculate as 6bps, it messes with the "pipe-organ" effect when playing arpeggios in the keys of C, G, and F...

Any idea what I am doing wrong? I've been using a metronome set at 120 and count 3bps on those key intervals to get them set. Also, I go back and ensure the pure intervals are as close as I can get them that way.

Glen

Thank you for your question, Glen, although I am not sure what you mean by "less than 6 bps". Do you mean slower or faster? In any case, someone whom I did not know at all, Dr. Herbert Anton Kellner from Germany (now deceased) had seen what I had written about the EBVT many years ago and took it upon himself to write to me and wrote me a yearly Christmas card until his death.

He seemed to think that 6 beats per second had some exceptional quality to it and was a stroke of genius on my part. He said it had a psychological effect and went on to describe how it worked with time and space. It synchronizes evenly with the second hand of a clock (whereas the 7 beats per second of the F3-A3 M3 of ET is out of synchronicity as are all other Rapidly beating Intervals of ET). He seemed to believe it was the very rhythm of life.

When I have people on my side such as Professor Owen Jorgensen RPT, Dr. Kellner, honorary Dr. Jim Coleman RPT, the esteemed and most highly respected tuning authority, Virgil Smith RPT and now internationally known instructor of piano technology Randy Potter RPT confirming the validity of what I do, not to mention PTG having me present these ideas three times already at its conventions, it is easy for me to be dismissive of comments from the "peanut gallery".

Glen, you have to get away from what "banging" on the wider M3s sounds like to you in that context alone. If you do that, only ET will sound "right" to you. You have to remember that tuning the piano is preparation for the music that will be played. Playing isolated intervals is not playing music.

If you have a perfectly executed ET, each and every interval is slightly bad but when you play music in that perfectly executed ET, you don't hear that. The same goes for either version of the EBVT. Look beyond the beating of any particular interval out of musical context. Follow the directions, do your best with them and then decide for yourself if any and all music is not enhanced over the way it would be in ET or not.

If, in the end, you have heard both and you decide that you still prefer ET, I accept that and it is OK with me. What I dismiss is the preconceived idea that the EBVT or EBVT III won't work and the completely out of proportion descriptions of its effects. It is not unequal enough for most proponents of Historical Temperaments (HT). The slightest audible deviation from ET is too much for the proponents of ET only.

You have to make up your own mind about these ideas and use them as you see fit in your daily work. Even if you decide that what I do is not for you, that is OK with me. At least you have given it fair and proper consideration. You will always know that you have an alternative if the opportunity presents itself.

Once again, the "pipe organ effect", as curious, interesting and thrilling as it may be, is not a goal in itself or a reason to tune the piano in a way that would produce it. Very little music as written would reveal it. The amazing effect that I hear only confirms to me that I have made an optimum compromise in the temperament and the extended octaves.

An organ's pipes have no inharmonicity. If I am able to manipulate the piano's tuning so that the effect as a whole sounds like a pipe organ, it merely means to me that I have handled the problem of inharmonicity in the most effective way I can. It is like well spread icing on a cake. Sloppy icing would taste just as good but the appeal to the eye of a good presentation has another appeal all its own.

A well tuned piano in ET with whichever amount of stretch in the octaves will sound good. The question is if one amount of stretch will make the overall appeal better or not. The question further is if manipulation of the temperament will also add to that appeal. You must decide this for yourself.

If I go less than what I calculate as 6bps, it messes with the "pipe-organ" effect when playing arpeggios in the keys of C, G, and F...

Also, I go back and ensure the pure intervals are as close as I can get them that way.

Glen

Glen, if you play an F Major or D-flat Major arpeggio (which both have pure 5ths in the EBVT III), you will not hear the "pipe organ effect"! The chord will sound good and pure but it will not mimic the sound of a pipe organ. Only the C major arpeggio gives you the truly splendid effect for a number of reasons. A few of the other keys have it to a lesser degree. G, D, A and E, (maybe even B) Major, the more tempered 5ths keys will but all of the keys which have less tempered 5ths will not.

I went back to the recordings I made of "The Age of Innocence" in ET from my ETD that has both the Reyburn Cyber Tuner and the Stopper Only Pure programs installed. I posted these 2 recordings in a previous thread comparing the 2 temperaments. I now have my IPhone/Tunelab tuning of this piece in EBVT III. Here are all 3 for an interesting comparison.

GP, I took the time to listen to all three of these again carefully as I have done before and I still come to the same conclusion: there is only a "shade" of difference between the RCT and the Stopper tuning. Both sound good and nice. I prefer the "sparkle" of the Stopper tuning over the RCT in the higher registers but the RCT does sound "warmer" in the middle while the Stopper sounds a bit strained and "tart".

The EBVT III version, however renders emotion to the music in a way that the other two fail to provide. The player system plays each exactly the same but somehow, the EBVT III version sounds like a different interpretation that is more appealing. The modulations are more meaningful and the return to the home key is therefore more musically satisfying.

I consistently find this happening with the EBVT, EBVT III or any other Cycle of 5ths based temperament.

I hope Nick and Pat will contribute, as well as any other folks out there!

GP, I am now listening to the ET/RCT version of the Eric Reed recording and find it thoroughly enjoyable. I hear some "liquid" unisons and that tells me why some people like that bit of "color". The sound is pleasant and the chords are resonant. Good sound overall, nothing negative to say about it. I will now audition the EBVT III version.

I get the same experience again! It somehow seems that the pianist plays with more feeling, more emotion! Every chord seems to have more meaning to it compared to the sterility of ET. I hear the "blue note" effect that was absent in ET. In short, the music seems to "come alive" in a way that it did not and could not in ET. I heard tension and resolution at the end that I did not in the ET version.

Thank you for taking the time to clarify what I have been experiencing. I think your written instructions are marvelous, in case they are available to anyone for the asking.

It's funny how this style of tuning already fit so well with what I was already doing as an aural only ET tuner using rapidly beating intervals (mostly 3rds) to set my temparament. I was even taught to set my first note using a fork that was 6 beats off, in order to get the pitch just right. For those not familiar with this, I was taught it is much better to learn to count 6 beats per second then to try to make 'pure', where there might actually be 1.5 beats in 5 seconds for example.

Since Bill has confirmed that 6 beats per second is critical, I have found this helpful link from Cy Shuster's website:

Clip 1 is from my former piano teacher Else Herold, i hear a stretch very close to the tuning protocol i am using, and the second clip is from Hubert Giesen, where a stretch closer to standard ET is present.

The mood, emotion and "cantabile" in Else Herold´s interpretation is incredicble and benefits in my opinion of the shining and clarity of the tuning, which is not present in the other clip and which can obviously not occur with using an unequal temperament, as the liveliness of unequal temperament would destroy the required calm and pure character in the D-flat key in this piece.

Else Herold was a pupil of Emil von Sauer, who was a pupil of Nikolai Rubinstein and Franz Liszt.

Thanks for that link, Nick. It would be a useful tool to put on my website. I have something similar now for the contiguous major thirds in my ET section. By the way, I recently updated the basic instructions on my website for tuning the EBVT.

The results do not change. I didn't like to have to add more words but I really think what I did makes it more technically correct. Robert Scott (Tunelab) had pointed out to me that tuning a pure 4th from C4 that had been tuned as a pure 5th from F3 didn't really exactly make F3-F4 a 4:2 octave, even though it would have been close. So, I have you tune A#3 from F3 temporarily as a pure 4th. When you tune a pure 5th from A#3 to F4, that really does make F3-F4 a perfect 4:2 octave.

Later, you sharpen A#3 slightly to temper the F3-A#3 4th so that the F3-A#3 4th beats exactly the same as the previously tuned G3-C4 4th.

These instructions follow the example of some historical temperament instructions that really allow anyone to replicate the temperament accurately by ear. The only regrettable part is that I had to use one beat rate specification, 6 beats per second but that is very easy to get right. Any of these instructions that have beat rate instructions with decimal points in them are virtually useless. Who could ever know if they are exactly right?

For that matter, getting 6 beats per second exactly right is hit or miss and so is making any two intervals beat exactly the same. However, a good tuner can come close enough with these to make the results be what is intended.

Bernhard, thank you for that link. I have heard the recordings. I am planning to meet with GP again after the convention and we are hoping to have a guest pianist who plays Chopin. If we are lucky, we will have a recording of that same music for comparison in the EBVT III played by a live pianist rather than the player system.