Below Average

Poor

Anywho, enough of my rambling - RBoE is a good read in a vacuum, a frustrating read for the ongoing story threads, but mostly comes off as repositioning and setup for whatever comes "next."

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As far as the DS9 threads are concerned, part of the problem is that these characters have been stuck in "set-up mode" for a long time now, really since Unity.

There were a bunch of novels that contained basically set-up material for the Ascendant Arc, which then never actually happened, and now the Typhon Pact contains a few elements of what is basically set-up material for whatever comes next. Overall, I get the feeling that no one really has any idea how the original relaunch was supposed to unfold, nor any idea what (if anything) is on the horizon for these characters, so the constant refrain that "something is about to happen" and "the sorrow is looming" and so on starts to be irritating rather than exciting.

The next time someone tells a story involving these characters, something has to actually happen (by which I mean a complete action from a dramatic standpoint). Enough with the set-up and foreboding already.

The Sisko story in RBoE boils down to a drawn out revelation that Sisko is leaving his wife and family due to an extremely dubious interpretation of the prophecy regarding his life with Kassidy. Now, looking here in my handbook entitled "Prophecy 101: The Basics," I see that attempting to circumvent a prophecy is commonly the best way of fulfilling that very same prophecy and, given Sisko's extreme depression throughout most of this novel, that seems to indeed be happening. But maybe due to his time in the Celestial Temple Benny has some kind of special insight into how things will unfold in the long run? Some nebulous references suggest this might be so.

All of this might be mildly interesting if this were part 1 of the story, but actually that's the whole thing, i.e. there's no story at all really, since a decision like this is not interesting on its own, but only in light of how the character's interpretation/misinterpretation affects his life and those around him. Sending Oedipus away because it is foretold that he will kill his father and marry his mother is not interesting in itself, that's the set-up for what happens later. Sisko's decision has to have some unforeseen consequences or come back to bite him in some way for it to be interesting and feel complete from a dramatic point of view. Or, alternately, perhaps we are to believe that Sisko made the right choice and averted the "great sorrow" entirely, thereby saving Kassidy and/or his daughter. That's waaaaaayyyyyy too easy, and doesn't seem likely, but again, all of this is only interesting as a set-up, not as a complete narrative.

In reality, the story is in suspended animation until some future author decides to pick it up again. However, given that these characters only show up once every couple of years, something has to actually happenfor the reader to feel in the least bit satisfied. An introduction to the foreshadowing to the preface to the looming disaster to the continuing saga on the horizon vibe simply does not work given the current publishing schedule.

In passing, Kira's appearance contains a humorous moment where the narrative pauses to basically state that Kira is a great character who has had a great journey and her journey is emblematic of Bajor's journey in many respects. Err, yes, all of that is true, but ideally a character like Kira would appear in a novel like this to continue the journey, rather than summarize what has come before in very general terms.

In fairness, she does perform a meaningful function in drawing out a confession of Sisko's motives, but the bit about "what a great journey it's been to this point" should have been edited out as it only serves to underscore the reality that Kira is making a token appearance, nothing more, in the wake of that Ascendant thing that sort of happened (but not really).

About the romulans - their home planet is due to be pulverised in a few years. They'll need all the internal stability they can get to get through that.

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Quite. Between that and the Empire's integration with the Typhon Pact, it looks like the Romulans are going to be pushed into much greater interactions with the surrounding civilizations at a person-to-person level. This could be interesting: will viinerine be as common as raktajino?

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rfmcdpei, considering your soft-spot for the romulans and especially for the 'rihannsu' book series detailinng their culture, I think you'll be pleased to find out that RBoE integrates some information from said book series into the main continuity such as: the romulans calling themselves rihannsu; the romulan naming fetish.

About Sisko (and, without exception, all the other DS9 characters presented in the Typhon Pact books that had more than 2-3 lines) - their characterisation has been unsatisfactory; too abrupt, too rushed.

A while ago, on these forums it was discussed whether the 5 year jump for the DS9 Relaunch was a good ideea or not.
For me, the books so far settled the matter:
-the characters' development suffered, it's not organic, but eclectic, the characters seem all over the place; also, they have become too spread out;
-plot threads that were anticipated/developed extensively were dropped - ex, the Ascendants; it's obvious it was decided to abandon previously prepared plot-lines;
-at this point, if the DS9 Relaunch is to continue, it will have little in common - beyond the setting - with what came before.

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I agree in certain respects--the five-year gap is a bit much--but what led to the stagnation of the relaunch in the first place?

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Changes concerning authors/editors. In what way should this impact my point?

About the romulans - their home planet is due to be pulverised in a few years. They'll need all the internal stability they can get to get through that.

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Quite. Between that and the Empire's integration with the Typhon Pact, it looks like the Romulans are going to be pushed into much greater interactions with the surrounding civilizations at a person-to-person level. This could be interesting: will viinerine be as common as raktajino?

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rfmcdpei, considering your soft-spot for the romulans and especially for the 'rihannsu' book series detailinng their culture, I think you'll be pleased to find out that RBoE integrates some information from said book series into the main continuity such as: the romulans calling themselves rihannsu; the romulan naming fetish.

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Indeed, the integration intensifies ...

By the way, is that you over at Centauri Dreams?

About Sisko (and, without exception, all the other DS9 characters presented in the Typhon Pact books that had more than 2-3 lines) - their characterisation has been unsatisfactory; too abrupt, too rushed.

A while ago, on these forums it was discussed whether the 5 year jump for the DS9 Relaunch was a good ideea or not.
For me, the books so far settled the matter:
-the characters' development suffered, it's not organic, but eclectic, the characters seem all over the place; also, they have become too spread out;
-plot threads that were anticipated/developed extensively were dropped - ex, the Ascendants; it's obvious it was decided to abandon previously prepared plot-lines;
-at this point, if the DS9 Relaunch is to continue, it will have little in common - beyond the setting - with what came before.

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I agree in certain respects--the five-year gap is a bit much--but what led to the stagnation of the relaunch in the first place?

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Changes concerning authors/editors. In what way should this impact my point?[/QUOTE]

It doesn't impact it, I suppose, I'm just unfamiliar with the backstory. It's a shame: the Ascendants really do need to be developed. And what has happened to the Dominion?

Finished it. Sisko's part just was not that interesting, although it may lead to that in future stories. Spock's was just all right. Given what we know about what happen to the Eisn system in several years, will all future reunification stories not really matter that much?

Having finished the novel, I'm not sure I like how the DS9 characters are scattered across several locations. Sure, we still have Bashir, Ro, Nog, Quark and Prynn aboard DS9 and I suppose Kira's being on Bajor doesn't rule out her appearing, but it seems odd to take Sisko out of Bajor.

I too found the Sisko storyline a little out of kilter with the character I know. Not a criticism as such just not what I had expected. The refrences to events occuring during the DS9 gap were a little frustrating especially with the cameo of a certain individual when Sisko was talking to Kira. This is a story that needs to be told after all the build up in the previous books. Also I too would like to know what became of Odo, Lars, and the Dominion.

Spock's was just all right. Given what we know about what happen to the Eisn system in several years, will all future reunification stories not really matter that much?

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Why would this be the case? Romulans don't live only on Romulus, and even with the destruction of their empire's core there are going to be very large numbers of Romulans living elsewhere in the Star Empire who are going to be influenced by the reunification movement, and by the other changes introduced by the new Romulan government. Determined efforts at peacefulness--domestically and abroad--and potential detente with the Federation would change things greatly. Maybe some post-Hobus Romulan might, if not reunify with Vulcan, align with the Federation.

Tal'Aura did a great job recovering from an unenviable position, restoring the Senate to justify her rule and getting the Hundred backing her, allowing the Reunification movement to go public to pressure Donatra into reunification on the RSE's terms, and making use of the Tal Shi'ar. I didn't like her, but she didn't do badly.

Donatra's simply a tragic figure. She really did mean well, whether we're talking about her support for Shinzon's coup or her attempts to counter Tal'Aura with the Imperial Romulan State or her near-alliance with the Federation. Her problem, I think, was that she wasn't consistent enough. That, and the Typhon Pact eviscerated her strategy for reunification and Romulan reform on her own terms.

Might I say that I'm so happy to see Gell Kamenor not only back, but as Praetor? I quite liked her character in Serpent Among the Shadows--thanks for bringing her back, David!--and no matter whether or not she was manipulated into her position by the Tzenkethi she will be a good Praetor.

As for the minor characters, Tomalak did a good job as Tal'Aura's second, Rehaek's plans were cunning, and, well, I suppose it's nice to have Sela back.

I too found the Sisko storyline a little out of kilter with the character I know. Not a criticism as such just not what I had expected.

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Same here. It seemed very "un-Sisko" like to me and reverted the character into something of a total wuss in one major area. I kinda doubt Avery Brooks would have agreed to do it if it had been a filmed story unless he liked where it was eventually going...

I really liked the novel and it is the best I've read in quite some time. I do have reservations of where DS9 goes from here though. We haven't had any announcements of anything DS9 related to be published in the future, bar Nog's appearance in the upcoming Indistinguishable from Magic.

However, Pocket Books' Star Trek team have rarely let me down with regards to DS9, so I'm confident in the future of DS9 prose.

It hurt to see Sisko and his--characters I care about--be so horribly depressed and self-destructive, but it made sense that they could and would do that, and the story of how this could happen was compelling.

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Well, I've never seen a single moment of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (either the film or the television series), so I'll just have to take your word for it. As for your comments...

I wouldn't say I'm exactly pleased that it hurt for you to read Sisko's story, but I am gratified that I engaged you emotionally. While it seems pretty clear that Sisko would be depressed, I would argue that he is not being self-destructive. In fact, he is specifically seeking to avoid that which would hurt him the most. I'm glad that you understood the reasons behind his actions--some readers apparently haven't--and I am delighted that you found the resultant tale compelling. Thanks for the kind words.

I just finished reading it and I give it a 4.5/5. It was a good fucking read. It was nicely paced, entertaining and I kept on wanting to read more. I even had some HOLY SHIT! just like that huh? moments...which is a good thing.

The only problem I had with it was the whole Sisko thing. I never read anything post DS9 series specifically regarding him until now and I must say I'm not entirely digging the whole sullen moping thing he has been portraying throughout the novel. It just seems so unlike Captain Sisko. Anyways keep up the good work David R George III I will read more of your books.

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Sisko's arc definitely takes a turn in Rough Beasts of Empire, although I wouldn't characterize it quite the way that you do. To my way of thinking, that turn will probably not be expected by most readers, but with a little reflection on what transpired in the television series, it seems inevitable.

I finished the book yesterday, and I've been stewing on my reaction since then. In a vacuum, it's definitely a good read, but it comes off as a bit...frustrating with some of it's contributions to many ongoing narratives.

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A good read in a vacuum, huh? I guess I'll take that, but I assume I know what's going to come after the but.

Hmmm. I never considered that, undoubtedly because my goals for the story did not include resetting anything. Now that I think about it, though, I would argue that my Romulan storyline is not a reset, in that I purposefully left a reasonable, educated, well-intentioned person in power as praetor. The Romulan Empire, and by extension, the Typhon Pact, should not look like a cadre of mustache-twirling villains.

...it just seems to wipe the slate clean and make the future narratives strictly Typhon Pact related. Not that it's a bad thing, but the payoff isn't here in this book - it's going to come whenever we revisit Romulus next.

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I disagree that the tale I tell is essentially setup. Of course, as part of an ongoing narrative, I do leave places for the story to go after my novel, but at the same time, I quite deliberately set out to tell my own story, one with a beginning, middle, and end. Perhaps the issue here is not that the story is merely a setup for something else, but that it simply didn't satisfy you.

The Tzenkethi parts were well developed without dominating the rest of the storyline. I loved the idea that there's going to be some internal manipulation by Typhon Pact members, and as muchas the Romulans might like to think they're the power brokers, setting the Tzenkethi up as pulling the strings in the background is a fun move with much future potential.

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Good to hear that you liked the Tzenkethi. I wanted to add them to the novel in a meaningful way, but without detracting from the Romulan story (which is what I was asked to write). I know that some readers will likely be disappointed with my take on the oft-mentioned but heretofore-never-seen aliens, since I read so often where people wanted them to be feline in nature, or like lizards. I wanted to do something different with them, but not something so completely out there that they would not be relatable on a human level. I also wanted their mind-set to be alien.

Before I get going here, I should point out my own biases - I've been excited about the Typhon Pact books for 2 reasons - 1) the concept and post-Destiny cleanup seemed awesome and 2) we finally get some more DS9-related goodness (or what I hoped to be goodness). I'm a total unapologetic DS9R cheerleader.

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For the record, I am a avid fan of the continuing Deep Space Nine saga. I say that not as a contributor, nor even as a writer, but as a reader. That said, Rough Beasts was never slated to be a DSN novel. You might not have seen this, but I posted that more than once on this forum.

The Sisko stuff is hugely frustrating. I can sort of see the argument that all this crap hitting the fan can destroy a man's soul causing him to take drastic actions. Unfortunately, we don't get to SEE the crap hit the fan over the previous 5 years. We don't get to see the tension with Kasidy develop organically. Instead, we're forced into a situation where probably the consummate family man in Trek history (with O'Brien being in that discussion as well) abandons his family because of...what? I can't see how a man who had all sorts of crap thrown at him in his lifetime suddenly doesn't realize that sometimes bad things happen, everyone dies eventually, and that it's all completely beyond his control. It's like he came down with a massive "the universe revolves around me" complex - our friends on Bajor died? It's because I married Kassidy. The Borg invaded? Because I married Kassidy. Vaughn is brain dead? Kassidy again. My dad died? Yep, you guessed it, because I made the decision to love and commit my life to Kassidy and start a family. What sort of God-complex did he come down with during his time with the Prophets? Plus, with the line of "the Prophets have left him after his use was up," he comes off as nothing more than an addict - trying to get that next hit, wondering where the high is and why it isn't as high, and despondent with the withdrawal.

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Lots of stuff to respond to here. Before I do, though, let me just say that I'm not attempting to change your mind, but just responding to your comments. I understand that not every reader will enjoy my work, despite my best intentions. I don't take such reactions personally.

Anyway, there wasn't much I could do about the four-year gap between The Soul Key and Rough Beasts. I mean, I did what I could, and what seemed reasonable to me, but in the space alloted and given the tale I needed to tell, I simply could not fill in all the details of the events jumped over to get to 2381. At the same time, I felt it ludicrous to believe that all of the characters and situations would remain precisely where they were; such stagnation would have flown in the face of the very storytelling that makes Deep Space Nine so compelling, both on television and in the books.

I agree that you don't get to see the tension between Ben and Kasidy develop organically, but I would also argue that it didn't develop organically; it developed as a result of Sisko coming to the realization that he made a terrible mistake, and then forcing that tension. Yes, he comes to believe that bad things are happening because he married Kasidy, but it's not out of ego; it's because he was warned about this by the Prophets. You can debate about the wisdom of believing in prophecy, but what the Prophets offer is not really prophecy; it's eyewitness testimony. They live in the past and the present and the future at the same time, and so they knew what would happen if Sisko married Kasidy. He chose not to heed that warning, and he ultimately comes to realize the foolishness of such a course.

To my way of thinking, that warning leveled at Sisko in the final season of the television series--"If you do [spend your life with her], you will know nothing but sorrow"--was never fulfilled. It almost seems a cheat for the Prophets to have told Sisko something so important and for them then to be wrong.

Also, I think it's important to realize that Sisko takes the drastic actions he does not to ease his own burden, but because he believes that his burden will include something terrible happening to his wife and daughter. What he does, he does to save them.

The flip side to this is that it's possible to see someone hitting this rock bottom and making drastic decisions based on any rationalization he can come up with. But we don't get to see that - we're treated to what looks like a complete character break rather than normal character development. To be fair, this isn't the fault of the book or of the author - it's the result of the DS9 Great Leap forward. There's no context to his actions - it's just a jarring jump.

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In all honesty, it's supposed to be jarring. And I disagree that there's no context. It's simply that some of the context occurred years earlier, during the series' final season.

It was nice to see what happened to Vaughn from what we saw in ZSG. He's not dead, and they're not pulling the plug, so I'm guessing there's something for this storyline down the way. If I were a betting man, I'd suggest there's going to be something Prophet-related going on with him at the end of the day.

Vedek Kira - from Attained to Vedek in 5 years? Not too shabby. Again, this is something that I could buy into, but it happens with little-to-no context.

The Ascendants - apparently that was a thing that happened.

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I would again say that there is context, although you rightly point out that some of that context is four years of "missing" story.

I hate to say it (because it would serious bum me out if it were true), the DS9R threads in the Typhon Pact books almost seem to be the epilogue to the DS9 story. It just comes off as cleaning up/cutting various hanging threads, reposition all the characters to different points in their lives, completely remove/separate everyone, and end the ongoing stories. 2 starships with new crews, practically a 3rd new crew on the station, plus all the Bajoran religious/political happenings (along with whatever ends up going on with Shar in Paths of Disharmony)...it just seems too much for a DS9 branded series to keep up with and do justice to. Instead, spread everyone out, look in on them/have them show up randomly from time to time in other novels, but the "Season 8" style of the relaunch (Avatar through Unity) seems to be a thing of the past. From a publication/editorial perspective this makes some level of sense - remove one ongoing series from the rotation, instead work it into the main narrative and just rebrand everything under the "Star Trek" moniker.

I really hope I'm wrong about this, but after ZSG and RBoE, I can't shake the feeling that the DS9 relaunch (such that it was) is over.

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From where I sit, the ongoing Deep Space Nine story is not over. Of course, I can't make any promises, and I'm not the guy in charge of such things. I really wish I could say more, but professionalism prevents me from doing so.

One thing that really bothers me about Sisko's choices is that the original plan was for Sisko to die at the end of DS9. Avery Brooks convinced the writers to put in the promise to return to Kassidy because he didn't want to see another broken African-American family. Sisko made the promise because he knew he wouldn't leave her. He would have found a way around the prophesy. Words can always be interpreted in different ways. This makes Sisko look like a quitter, taking the easy way out and leaving rather than fighting for his family and finding a way to stay with them.

You can debate about the wisdom of believing in prophecy, but what the Prophets offer is not really prophecy; it's eyewitness testimony.

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It presents that same problem that regular prophecy does to human beings in that the words are enigmatic. What does that mean? What does that mean? is the constant refrain when dealing with the prophets. A good example of this is the episode Destiny, wherein everyone misinterprets the prophecy about the Temple Gates in one way or another, which influences their actions as they struggle to understand what the words mean. It's only once the prophecy has fulfilled itself that full understanding is possible. Part of the question becomes: what would you have done in this situation had there been no prophecy? This is an important question because the quandry is something like the following: "We can't really know what the words mean or whether the prophecy will be fulfilled, but we can be true to ourselves and do what we think is right."

Inevitably, if characters begin to betray themselves and do things that are manifestly wrong because of what they have heard in prophecy, that is catastrophic because (1) they are probably misinterpreting the prophecy, (2) they are acting out of fear and (3) betraying their own sense of ethics and morality. This is relevant whether or not we believe in prophecy because the same scenario can arise whenever human beings act out of fear or believe they know what the future will bring. The story in RBoE seems to be unaware of these types of issues.

Sisko is doing something that is manifestly wrong for dubious reasons. But perhaps the reasons aren't dubious, but are actually cold, hard facts? Well, they don't really seem to be. Sisko isn't able to articulate what he saw in the Temple among all of the possible futures to which he was exposed during his non-linear existence, and he is embarrassed to even try to explain his reasoning to Kassidy.

In passing, it really wouldn't have been very interesting if, over the course of the television series, the Prophets had merely provided the Emissary with snapshots of the future that the characters could then act on without hesitation. Presumably they never did this because they can't do this. They perceive the universe differently, but that perception can only be communicated in an inexact and ambiguous manner to linear beings, i.e. it seems to work pretty much like regular prophecy.

To my way of thinking, that warning leveled at Sisko in the final season of the television series--"If you do [spend your life with her], you will know nothing but sorrow"--was never fulfilled. It almost seems a cheat for the Prophets to have told Sisko something so important and for them then to be wrong.

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Well, within the context of the television series, I think it was. Leaving his family behind on Bajor is the great sorrow referred to by the prophets. Family is what matters most to Sisko, so being unable to be there for his family and the birth of his daughter is a huge tragedy for him (which makes the events of RBoE even more... odd). It's true, however, that he returned fairly quickly in the relaunch, so I do think it makes sense to follow up on this in one way or another.

I guess the rest of this probably needs to be tagged for spoilers as well.

David R. George III said:

Also, I think it's important to realize that Sisko takes the drastic actions he does not to ease his own burden, but because he believes that his burden will include something terrible happening to his wife and daughter. What he does, he does to save them.

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It doesn't come across that way imho, for a couple of reasons.

Part of the issue, I think, is that this story doesn't make interesting use of the predicament in which Sisko finds himself or the concept of prophecy in general. Basically, from what I can glean from the novel and your comments, what we are to believe is that Sisko has seen one future where his wife and/or daughter dies because he stays with them, and another where this doesn't happen because he doesn't stay with them.

In that scenario, there's no reason for him not to tell Kassidy, since it's not a question of faith or belief at all. Everybody knows that the non-linear aliens in the temple see glimpses of the future. I mean, Kassidy knows Sisko spent a bunch of time in the Celestial Temple recently. In this reading, it's just a question of information being transmitted to Sisko that he needs to act on.

What, then, is Sisko so embarrassed and ashamed of? The story reads more like Sisko is trying to find an excuse to ditch his wife and daughter. I'm sure that was not intentional, but that's what it feels like. If Sisko had really received enough information from the prophets to make this a clear-cut decision, then there's no reason for him to be ashamed of his decision or to be afraid of explaining it to Kassidy.

Despite Sisko's (and your) protestations to the contrary, he seems to be acting in an extremely selfish manner so that he can shirk the responsiblities of being a father and husband (which is out of character for Sisko).

Sisko made the promise because he knew he wouldn't leave her. He would have found a way around the prophesy. Words can always be interpreted in different ways. This makes Sisko look like a quitter, taking the easy way out and leaving rather than fighting for his family and finding a way to stay with them

I thought this was fairly poor, it's well written in many ways and would make a great space opera book if done with original characters but not so great as a Star Trek book. The first problem is that it simply feels like a Spock book with some DS9 aspects rammed into it rather than a coherent novel.

Moreover turning a black man into a deadbeat dad has all sorts of negative vibes attached to it, regardless of how it's dressed up in the story - something that I believe that Avery Brooks was keen to avoid in the final episode of DS9 which is why Sisko promises to return.

All in all, the wider problem is that it when read in conjunction with the more recent books, it just more dark pessimistic stuff, absolutely no trace of any light, none of the quality that attracted me to Star Trek in the first place. It's the opposite of how Craig Ferguson described Doctor Who, it's the triumph of brutality and violence over intellect and romance.

I am uncertain that without Spock, the Reunification movement will go much farther than it will go in those years. Then again, I do not think the Typhoon pact will last that long.
This may be an unpopular sentiment, bu I think that without the influence of the Prophets, Sisko would have been an unexceptional individual.

Moreover turning a black man into a deadbeat dad has all sorts of negative vibes attached to it, regardless of how it's dressed up in the story - something that I believe that Avery Brooks was keen to avoid in the final episode of DS9 which is why Sisko promises to return.

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Agreed, especially given that the motivations are so dubious here. In the tv series, Sisko only leaves because he as to accomplish his duty as the Emissary. If he doesn't go, then he is putting the alpha quadrant at risk. This is equivalent to his putting his life on the line in battle as a Starfleet officer.

Granted, the culmination of this plot thread was not the DS9 writers' *ahem* finest hour, but at any rate there was a lot at stake beyond personal happiness or preference. Even with all that in mind, I can see why Brooks lobbied for the possibility of an eventual return or at least an expression of intent to that end.

In RBoE it feels like Sisko is looking for any excuse to abandon his family while convincing himself that he is doing it for unselfish reasons. The reasons given are extremely flimsy and do not stand up to much scrutiny, as even Sisko seems to recognize by his refusal to openly discuss them with Kassidy.

The end strikes me as especially misguided from this point of view in that it seems to show a relieved Sisko finally free of his responsibilities after having filed for divorce from long distance and now he's ready to relax and have a drink with his shipmates.

It currently feels like the DS9 character drew slips of paper out of a fishbowl to determine where they were and what their situation was. It feels totally random and unconnected to the previous DS9-R books.

While an extended discussion of the internal divisions of Romulan civilization, manifested by an interstate cold war, would have been fun, there probably would have been a RSE-IRS conflict sooner or later that could easily lead to a Typhon-vs-Khitomer war. I've had enough massive galactic armed conflicts for now, thanks.

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Personally, I tend to agree with this perspective. I appreciated the Dominion War on Deep Space Nine, and I loved Dave Mack's fantastic Destiny trilogy, but I can only take so much mayhem and destruction. Interestingly, I think that part of the problem for writers--and I count myself among their number--is that the books have become so grand in scope and so connected one to another, that it is difficult to conceive story lines that fit into such a framework without resorting to at least the threat of war.

The Tzenkethi engineering Romulan civilization's reunification on a pragmatic praetor not inclined towards showy attempts at galactic conquest is interesting. First, the Tzenkethi are doing it; great species/civilization! Second, the shift of Romulus towards a more peaceful but also more engaged mindset opens up all kinds of interesting possibilities for interaction. We've had an introverted but aggressive Romulan civilization since forever. What would a less aggressive and more open Romulan civilization look like?

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First, I'm glad you like the Tzenkethi. I enjoyed writing them.

Second, it seems as though you and I are on the same page here. Few people truly want war, and although the Romulans had their share of individuals bent on attacking the Federation, I believe that most would prefer peace. I wanted to see what reasonable Romulan leadership would look like, and how that would impact the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Also, the Tzenkethi may be master manipulators, but they are also performing their machinations in order to keep what they consider to be an imperialistic Federation at bay.

About Sisko (and, without exception, all the other DS9 characters presented in the Typhon Pact books that had more than 2-3 lines) - their characterisation has been unsatisfactory; too abrupt, too rushed.

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Too rushed? Okay, but I don't see that. Sisko's story line occurs six years after the impetus for this portion of his arc.

A while ago, on these forums it was discussed whether the 5 year jump for the DS9 Relaunch was a good ideea or not.
For me, the books so far settled the matter:
-the characters' development suffered, it's not organic, but eclectic, the characters seem all over the place; also, they have become too spread out;
-plot threads that were anticipated/developed extensively were dropped - ex, the Ascendants; it's obvious it was decided to abandon previously prepared plot-lines;
-at this point, if the DS9 Relaunch is to continue, it will have little in common - beyond the setting - with what came before.

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I don't necessarily disagree with all of what you write here, but I honestly did the best I could with what I was given. Make no mistake: I love the continuing Deep Space Nine saga, as well as its characters, and I strive to make strong contributions when I have an opportunity to do so.

About the romulans - their home planet is due to be pulverised in a few years. They'll need all the internal stability they can get to get through that.

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Between that [their home planet is due to be pulverised in a few years] and the Empire's integration with the Typhon Pact, it looks like the Romulans are going to be pushed into much greater interactions with the surrounding civilizations at a person-to-person level. This could be interesting: will viinerine be as common as raktajino?

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I believe that it can and will be interesting to follow developments of the Typhon Pact nations in general, and of the Romulans in particular.

I agree in certain respects--the five-year gap is a bit much--but what led to the stagnation of the relaunch in the first place?

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It's actually a four-year gap. While I would hesitate to say that the ongoing Deep Space Nine story has stagnated, I can say that quite a number of circumstances have contributed to its current state. In some regards, it doesn't really matter what happened, though; what matters is what will happen going forward. I have a feeling that there may be at least a couple of more DSN books before it's all said and done.

It was eventually decided to bring the DS9-R up to speed with the rest of the post-Destiny narrative. That is what is happening in the Typhon Pact titles, albeit in a rather uninspired manner imo.

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Yeah, kinda. I mean, Rough Beasts of Empire is not, and was never designed to be, a Deep Space Nine novel. Clearly, it is in part a Ben Sisko story. Uninspiring? Sorry to hear you feel that way, though I certainly felt inspired while writing.

One the one hand, yeah, some of these choices, especially the ones in RBoE, don't feel very promising as far as future DS9 stories are concerned.

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I'm uncertain just what you mean here. Are you talking about the four-year gap between The Soul Key and Rough Beasts, or about specific character developments in my novel? If the latter, then I can tell you unequivocally that my choices in RBoE do not spell doom for the ongoing DSN saga.

On the other hand, the pieces are still there on the table for a future writer to pick up and put back together. It's a bit tricky because the DS9 crew can't be easily plugged into a standard Trek narrative the way the crews of TNG, Voyager, Titan and others can. So, we'll see.

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Really, this has always been the case, ever since the final episode of the television series. After "What You Leave Behind," Ben Sisko was no longer on the station, or even on Bajor, but off in the Celestial Temple with the Prophets; Miles O'Brien and his family returned to Earth; Worf departed DS9 to accept the Federation ambassadorship to Qo'noS; Odo left to join the Dominion; Garak stayed on Cardassia; Winn, Dukat, and the (supposedly) last Weyoun perished. When the Deep Space Nine saga continued in the books, its characters were scattered all over the galaxy, if they were even still alive. In that regard, the continuing narrative has always posed challenges not entirely present in the other Trek literary lines.

I think the real issue here is that new installments of the ongoing DSN tale were published relatively regularly for a few years, and now that's no longer the case. Also, I know that some readers anticipated both Zero Sum Game and Rough Beasts of Empire as Deep Space Nine novels, but neither were developed for that to be the case.

As well, because of the four-year jump ahead in the narrative, it might appear that some of the plot threads--the exodus of the Founders, the approach of the zealous Ascendants--have been dropped without satisfactory resolution. Now, I'm not in charge of these things, so I can't promise anything, but I do firmly believe that there will be more DSN books, and that at least some of the dangling plot threads could get resolved.

The DS9-R as an on-going story of its own is dead, but I do think that at some point an author will come up with a compelling story for these characters, at which time hopefully we will get a couple of DS9 novels in relatively quick succession.

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Perhaps as you define it, but I genuinely do not think that the ongoing DSN story is dead.

David...even though I didn't love the book, I think you...and all our other wonderful authors deserve a lot of credit for being so great about answering criticism. And even when I don't love every plot twist and all of that, I certainly know how much you all love ST, and how glad I am that we've got a whole stable of authors who are willing to undertake all this as a labor of love.

I figured it was the least I could say after my Negative Nancy comments

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Thanks, but you shouldn't feel badly at all for not liking a book. This is all subjective. For what it's worth, I knew that parts of my novel would be a hard sell. I was good with that; I like a challenge. I certainly want every reader to love my work, but I also understand that such a desire is unrealistic in the extreme. Thanks, though, for recognizing that I do love Star Trek, and that I absolutely strive hard to write good novels that are worthy of the line.

Really, this has always been the case, ever since the final episode of the television series.

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Agreed, certainly, on this point. The DS9 novels have always required a different approach. It's also true that we are probably subjecting the DS9 aspect of RBoE to a disproportionate amount of scrutiny given that the focus is largely on the Spock and Romulan Empire plot thread. There was a certain amount of editorial box-checking going on here (now we know where most, if not all of the DS9 characters are in the current timeline) and that's fine. Obviously, it was a necessary part of bringing the DS9-R up to speed with everything else.

That being said, the Sisko storyline strikes me as very poorly conceived for reasons I described above. It could probably be salvaged in a subsequent novel, and I certainly hope it will be.

In RBoE it feels like Sisko is looking for any excuse to abandon his family while convincing himself that he is doing it for unselfish reasons. The reasons given are extremely flimsy and do not stand up to much scrutiny, as even Sisko seems to recognize by his refusal to openly discuss them with Kassidy.

The end strikes me as especially misguided from this point of view in that it seems to show a relieved Sisko finally free of his responsibilities after having filed for divorce from long distance and now he's ready to relax and have a drink with his shipmates. Yikes.

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I think it does bear some scrutiny, though not much.

Neglectful parenting has been depicted before. Remember when Worf found out that his son went and joined the Klingon military, and that only because of a chance encounter? Martok was right to be unimpressed.

It's true that the Sisko portion of RBoE reads like a story about a neglectful parent or "deadbeat dad" trying to shirk his responsibilities more than anything else. From that point of view, the prophecy is just an excuse, and I agree that this interpretation is the most plausible based solely on the narrative of RBoE.

What I am saying is that the excuse provided by the prophecy doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, so the idea (asserted above by the author) that RBoE is a story about Sisko making a selfless decision to save his wife and children is likewise hard to sustain.

Beyond that, portraying Sisko as a neglectful parent seems to fly in the face of everything we know about the character. I understand this was probably unintentional on the part of the author, but that, imho, is the story we have in front of us for the moment.