username wrote:You are wrong to say I said what he has practiced, I didn't.

I think you should read your post again.

Why not investigate see why a docu on a bunch of young mid/low-level tulkus reborn in the west creates such strong reactions and emotions in you? Nyingmas originally didn't have tulkus nor hierarchical establishment and organization on this scale anyway.

such strong reactions and emotions in you? Really, I just stated my view without that much emotion at all, so sorry it triggered such a reaction in you.

I agree with your points kirtu. I don't write them off either. But to me it's a lot of energy to make mega broadcast of what????

You know, one of the strangest things in this movie for me was the scene was where Gesar's was receiving offerings at Shechen and walking out the front door and down the court yard asking this big question about his place as a tulku, and Changling Rinpoche was along side him when he was receiving the offering and he saw him to the entrance and stood there as he walked off. If he didn't take the opportunity to discuss his dilemma with Changling Rinpoche I think that was a HUGE opportunity lost. I don't know whether he did or not, but Changling Rinpoche, I feel would have been able to help him address a lot of his questions and give him some perspective, but this wasn't mentioned in the movie. As usual, I'm probably wrong everything.

username wrote:You are wrong to say I said what he has practiced, I didn't.

I think you should read your post again.

1- No, please let's try to be honest here:

username wrote:I'd say he can do a major terma cycle (say Dudjom Tersar with part exemption of ngondro) and trekcho concurrently and various shorts and then another from that tersar till he's got the 3, taking his time and doing his activities too. He's probably doing something like that but he is entitled to keep his practice secret. A right you and I have but which you are denying him in a horrible attack in public!

2- Also I didn't accuse you of attacking CTR but paralleled your public unjustified unfounded attacks on Gesar with the old attacks on CTR regarding his unorthodox novel activities in the west. And what Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche replied to those. I didn't link you to CTR in any way as you claim.

3- I also showed how your long list of stipulations for giving Vajrayana transmissions is wrong!

4- Your interrogation and attacks on his, or anyone's, practice in public is wrong.

5- Your prescription of what he should practice is wrong. That is his guru(s) and his own decision.

6- The tulku/enrthronment/mega monastery with numerous branches (now multi national) are recent historic inventions (medieval) and not the essence of Nyingma/TB or Buddhism which you mistake them for that has upset you so much to attack him so wrongly in public.

Finally his film seems to be a beneficial activity for you, and probably others, in my opinion.

username wrote:You are wrong to say I said what he has practiced, I didn't.

I think you should read your post again.

1- No, please let's try to be honest here:

username wrote:I'd say he can do a major terma cycle (say Dudjom Tersar with part exemption of ngondro) and trekcho concurrently and various shorts and then another from that tersar till he's got the 3, taking his time and doing his activities too. He's probably doing something like that but he is entitled to keep his practice secret. A right you and I have but which you are denying him in a horrible attack in public!

Where have I attacked him?

2- Also I didn't accuse you of attacking CTR but paralleled your public unjustified unfounded attacks on Gesar with the old attacks on CTR regarding his unorthodox novel activities in the west. And what Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche replied to those. I didn't link you to CTR in any way as you claim.

Where have I said - but paralleled your public unjustified unfounded attacks on Gesar with the old attacks on CTR regarding his unorthodox novel activities in the west Please quote me.

3- I also showed how your long list of stipulations for giving Vajrayana transmissions is wrong!

Please explain what I have said and how it is wrong

4- Your interrogation and attacks on his, or anyone's, practice in public is wrong.

Where have I done this?

5- Your prescription of what he should practice is wrong. That is his guru(s) and his own decision.

What prescription have I stated and how is it wrong?

6- The tulku/enrthronment/mega monastery with numerous branches (now multi national) are recent historic inventions (medieval) and not the essence of Nyingma/TB or Buddhism which you mistake them for that has upset you so much to attack him so wrongly in public.

The enthronement ceremony might be a Tibetan adaption, but the prescription of doing the necessary retreats to gain the signs of accomplishment have been integral to the vajrayana since their genesis (to my knowledge). I trust Namdrol or Kirti will correct me if I am wrong.

I thought I had said enough that my friend noticed hidden qualities in Gesar. And I'm sure the lineage has picked someone with merit and potential. The thing about Gesar and these tulkus that I admire, is that they haven't been corrupted by trying to manifest spiritual qualities and attainment for worldly sake. Gesar was refreshingly honest about himself in the movie about DKR "Words of My Perfect Teacher". But you know, he said it all there, that trying to work on yourself to become awakened is too hard a work. And that too is a refreshing honesty. He has to be commended for it. But that's also answered his own question, because so many tulkus have had this dilemma, but they resolved it through practice. CTR talks about this in his series on Jamgon Kongtrul of Shechen.

Ashocka wrote:username: "You are wrong to say I said what he has practiced, I didn't."

I think you should read your post again.

1- No, please let's try to be honest here:

username wrote:I'd say he can do a major terma cycle (say Dudjom Tersar with part exemption of ngondro) and trekcho concurrently and various shorts and then another from that tersar till he's got the 3, taking his time and doing his activities too. He's probably doing something like that but he is entitled to keep his practice secret. A right you and I have but which you are denying him in a horrible attack in public!

Where have I attacked him?

2- Also I didn't accuse you of attacking CTR but paralleled your public unjustified unfounded attacks on Gesar with the old attacks on CTR regarding his unorthodox novel activities in the west. And what Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche replied to those. I didn't link you to CTR in any way as you claim.

Where have I said - but paralleled your public unjustified unfounded attacks on Gesar with the old attacks on CTR regarding his unorthodox novel activities in the west Please quote me.

3- I also showed how your long list of stipulations for giving Vajrayana transmissions is wrong!

Please explain what I have said and how it is wrong

4- Your interrogation and attacks on his, or anyone's, practice in public is wrong.

Where have I done this?

5- Your prescription of what he should practice is wrong. That is his guru(s) and his own decision.

What prescription have I stated and how is it wrong?

6- The tulku/enrthronment/mega monastery with numerous branches (now multi national) are recent historic inventions (medieval) and not the essence of Nyingma/TB or Buddhism which you mistake them for that has upset you so much to attack him so wrongly in public.

The enthronement ceremony might be a Tibetan adaption, but the prescription of doing the necessary retreats to gain the signs of accomplishment have been integral to the vajrayana since their genesis (to my knowledge). I trust Namdrol or Kirti will correct me if I am wrong.

I thought I had said enough that my friend noticed hidden qualities in Gesar. And I'm sure the lineage has picked someone with merit and potential. The thing about Gesar and these tulkus that I admire, is that they haven't been corrupted by trying to manifest spiritual qualities and attainment for worldly sake. Gesar was refreshingly honest about himself in the movie about DKR "Words of My Perfect Teacher". But you know, he said it all there, that trying to work on yourself to become awakened is too hard a work. And that too is a refreshing honesty. He has to be commended for it. But that's also answered his own question, because so many tulkus have had this dilemma, but they resolved it through practice. CTR talks about this in his series on Jamgon Kongtrul of Shechen.

Before you said "DKR sent him to Shechen Tibet in 1991 to be enthroned at Shechen Tibet (maybe that would trigger the awakening?)". Now after negatively interrogating his practices in public you are again doing that to his realizations and accomplishments and denying any substantiality there either. I wanted to list that before too but felt embarrassed. You are not. You don't read posts either or pretend to not to as I proved. People put themselves down and it means nothing, it is normal. I told you even very high masters after lenghty personal interviews of their long term disciples are not sure of realizations or lack of in the depths. But you see all across the web! Signs of accomplishment varies for practices, or classes of, from physical events to visions to certain events/symbols in dreams to certain realizations etc. and is told by the lama for that practice or class of. You're from Shechen, I don't know what's happened to you. But I am tired of people saying wild things about yanas, buddhas, tantras, termas, tertons, gurus, tulkus or practitioners etc. and when telling them they are damaging themselves and others, they get wilder and say you are harsh. Say what personal things you want, others too, against people as it is welcomed here! I'm tired of such people addressing me out of the blue. Good luck. This place will be fun, and sad, to watch.

I tend to agree with some of username's points here: what Gesar does or doesn't practice is between him and his Guru, in this case Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche. Since their relationship seems quite good, we can assume Gesar is a good disciple which means he is a good practitioner. It is none of our business what he is practicing, or if it fits according to the generic formulas we are familiar with. DzKR is an iconoclastic teacher, and Gesar is an iconoclastic tulku. Since DzKR himself has explained well the nature of pith instruction we should assume this is how he works with close students. Just because Gesar is not teaching Dharma in expected ways doesn't mean he is less realized than his brother who is on a high throne. He could be more. Perhaps for the sake of Dharma itself he is attempting to assist in the dismantling of the tulku system and the mystique around it, for similar reasons Namdrol is fed up with it/// and this was his intent in the film. There's many ways one could read the situation, so better not to leap to judgments.

It is an obvious fact among any of us in the Tibetan Dharma scene in the west for any period of time that there are those who get crystalized into rigid Dharma robots who quote scriptures readily but can't be decent human beings in many of the most simple ways. It is my sense that this is what Gesar is rebelling against, inspired by his father's example.. and if he seems irreverent in any way it may be to culturally specific forms and not to the essence of Dharma. Since Shambhala was his father's legacy and this was was about going beyond specific forms then this is to be expected. Since his brother is pushing the openness of those teachings into the cultural molds of Dharma that CTR seemed intent on releasing them from, someone needs to push in the other direction and maybe that's what he is doing. Just a thought!

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

I have not seen the movie, but I remember our argument on E-Sangha. At best, Gesar is ambivalent about the tulku system -- but when push comes to shove, he believes he is a tulku of an awakened master even though he has no memories of his past life, and so on. So his faith in the tulku system is not really an issue.

Adamantine wrote: Perhaps for the sake of Dharma itself he is attempting to assist in the dismantling of the tulku system and the mystique around it, for similar reasons Namdrol is fed up with it/// and this was his intent in the film.

Namdrol wrote:I have not seen the movie, but I remember our argument on E-Sangha. At best, Gesar is ambivalent about the tulku system -- but when push comes to shove, he believes he is a tulku of an awakened master even though he has no memories of his past life, and so on. So his faith in the tulku system is not really an issue.

Actually I think if you look into it more you'll see he has had strongexperiences when he returned to his monastery in Tibet that suggest he believes he's a tulku for more than superficial reasons. To me it seems you can be against the tulku "system", and still believethat tulku's happen---> even if not in the fullsense of what the word should mean. Which may be his exploration:He still feels he is a tulku-- Ashoka his half brother doesn't, yetstill keeps the tangkha of his predecessor (whomhe looks an awful lot like.) Up to 8th Bhumi Bodhsattvas can still fall, isn't it?So perhaps these are legit reincarnations, not nirmanakaya emanations in the proper sense.

My sense was he is saying the system doesn't workif tulku's aren't being trained in the traditional way,since the system is about enthroning them to head monasticfiefdoms and grooming them as professional Gurus. When left to themselves it seems there is a more complex crises of identityand questioning about their proper role even if the majority of them still seemed quite devoted to Dharma practice still. If things continue that way it hardly seems like a system anymore to the point where recognitions would become pointless.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Here is another in a series of mistakes in the movie "Tulku" by it's writer and director, Gesar Mukpo.

In the movie he shows two photos of the late Shechen Kongtrul Rinpoche.

He appears to not know the true story about theses photos.

He claims that the second photo he shows of SKR was taken after the first photo in the Chinese photo studio.

Well Trungpa Rinpoche stated that the photo he took of SKR was done in 1954 and "The other photograph of him, you've seen, with the trees in the background, was a later photograph taken in Lhasa in a Chinese studio (At that point he was much thinner). (google http://www.beezone.com/jamgonkongrul).So we have him getting the story of these photos wrong and that his friend Dylan Henderson was the first westerner recognized as a tulku was also wrong since George Leslie Dawson (Namgyal Rinpoche) was.

He also forgets that in the movie "Words of My Perfect Teacher" he stated that his father wanted him to go to a Tibetan monastery but his mother stated "No way are you sending my son to a monastery".

So Trungpa Rinpoche did want his son to go to a monastery for formal training and it was his mother who stopped it.

This was never mentioned in the movie "Tulku".

Also not including Shechen Rabjam Rinpoche in the credits was also very interesting.

Did no one at the National Film Board of Canada or the producer or director do any fact checks?

Adamantine wrote:I tend to agree with some of username's points here: what Gesar does or doesn't practice is between him and his Guru, in this case Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche. Since their relationship seems quite good, we can assume Gesar is a good disciple which means he is a good practitioner. It is none of our business what he is practicing, or if it fits according to the generic formulas we are familiar with. DzKR is an iconoclastic teacher, and Gesar is an iconoclastic tulku. Since DzKR himself has explained well the nature of pith instruction we should assume this is how he works with close students. Just because Gesar is not teaching Dharma in expected ways doesn't mean he is less realized than his brother who is on a high throne. He could be more. Perhaps for the sake of Dharma itself he is attempting to assist in the dismantling of the tulku system and the mystique around it, for similar reasons Namdrol is fed up with it/// and this was his intent in the film. There's many ways one could read the situation, so better not to leap to judgments.

It is an obvious fact among any of us in the Tibetan Dharma scene in the west for any period of time that there are those who get crystalized into rigid Dharma robots who quote scriptures readily but can't be decent human beings in many of the most simple ways. It is my sense that this is what Gesar is rebelling against, inspired by his father's example.. and if he seems irreverent in any way it may be to culturally specific forms and not to the essence of Dharma. Since Shambhala was his father's legacy and this was was about going beyond specific forms then this is to be expected. Since his brother is pushing the openness of those teachings into the cultural molds of Dharma that CTR seemed intent on releasing them from, someone needs to push in the other direction and maybe that's what he is doing. Just a thought!

Sure, but he has gone and made a movie about himself and this issue, so he's put it in the public domain. If he doesn't want to raise this issue then it's simple, you just keep to yourself and everyone shut up and leave him alone. But if he wants us to investigate this issue and question this and put it out in the public domain then what do you expect?

I'm sorry if people feel I have been disrespectful, but I feel I have not intentionally disparaged him or others.

I feel if you are going to ask this question of tulkus in the west, then talk to these western tulkus true, anyone can understand being a tulku comes with it's challenges, but also go and ask Khyentse Yangsi and Phakchok Rinpoche about how they have dealt with living in the shadow of their predecessors, to try and get as broad a perspective as possible on this issue.

Ask DKR what he really means when he says "we are still waiting for him to do what he's supposed to do". That's the big question... what is it he's supposed to do? Why not address that question? Why just leave it there to appear as a tulku in joke that other's aren't fit to comprehend. Please have some respect for practitioners out there who are the audience and address these questions.

It doesn't matter if he's a great practitioner or not, or what his relationship with gurus are, true, basically that is none of my business, but this documentary puts that all into question. To me, it does not ask the important questions to resolve a lot of these issues IMHO. He's left so many unaddressed questions it invites lots more questions than answers. And it gets back to the issue that he's put all this out in the public domain, so I don't see any problems asking these questions if that is the case.

The main issues raised about the sense of unresolved issue of being a tulku anywhere ultimately can only be answered by themselves on their meditation cushion. That's just my point. Otherwise it becomes a public chronicle of tulku namtok predicament.

Footnote: I am associated with Shechen as an adopted bad student, which reflects on the quality of the lamas there that they tolerate a low life like myself.

Ashocka wrote:I'm sorry if people feel I have been disrespectful, but I feel I have not intentionally disparaged him or others.

I feel if you are going to ask this question of tulkus in the west, then talk to these western tulkus true, anyone can understand being a tulku comes with it's challenges, but also go and ask Khyentse Yangsi and Phakchok Rinpoche about how they have dealt with living in the shadow of their predecessors, to try and get as broad a perspective as possible on this issue.

Ask DKR what he really means when he says "we are still waiting for him to do what he's supposed to do". That's the big question... what is it he's supposed to do? Why not address that question? Why just leave it there to appear as a tulku in joke that other's aren't fit to comprehend. Please have some respect for practitioners out there who are the audience and address these questions.

I don't think you've been disrespectful, and if so I doubt he would care. I was just pointing out that some of the issues you raised are straw men. He was focused on Western tulkus, and if we're going to split hairs there's a bunch more he should have interviewed to get a more holistic picture : Ossian Maclise, Lama Osel, and others... Since he did interview the 17th Karmapa and Dzongsar Khyentse both, and a feature doc has time limits, critiquing because he didn't interview your Tibetan tulku first pics is silly, and imagining they would have had responses more to your liking than DKR or Karmapa is also silly. I think DKR's intent was pretty clear in the "we are waiting for him" department: he meant manifesting the expected potential of someone with his upbringing and training, despite the tulku status. But per usual with DKR, we don't know if he is saying this tongue in cheek or straight forwardly.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Namdrol wrote:I have not seen the movie, but I remember our argument on E-Sangha. At best, Gesar is ambivalent about the tulku system -- but when push comes to shove, he believes he is a tulku of an awakened master even though he has no memories of his past life, and so on. So his faith in the tulku system is not really an issue.

That is not true. They used to have their own forum, don't know if it's still going. Glad he is not participating here and getting on with what is important in his chosen beneficient activities for beings. The last Shechen Kongtrul was one of the greatest siddhas of the 20th century according to great masters. Most of the time he spent a little distant from his large important monastery, in solitude and in contemplation. I remember Gesar writing a few years ago that he has clear vivid memories of his last life, including outside his little hut and describing the meadows when he used to sit outside. Gesar is the tulku of the great siddha from how he appears and is still benefiting people greatly and this is unmistakenably so as I do trust the judgement of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and the 16th Karmapa who knew both rebirths.

Namdrol wrote:I have not seen the movie, but I remember our argument on E-Sangha. At best, Gesar is ambivalent about the tulku system -- but when push comes to shove, he believes he is a tulku of an awakened master even though he has no memories of his past life, and so on. So his faith in the tulku system is not really an issue.

That is not true.

On E-Sangha he denied have memories of his past life when I challenged him about it -- that is a fact.

the tulku tradition to my opinion reflects a necessity of buddhism in a historical context.Buddhism in its varying traditions as perhaps reflective of the necessity of any religions that have to maintain a permenance of structures, eventually aligns itself to a degree with the politic of the moment. That necessity due to the financial, means and allowance for monies to maintain the monastic.The result of that may be a negative on the sanga itself, with the eventual degredation we may see of monks becoming extensions of the politic(used in warfare of various sorts).Or in the sanga becoming elitist. in that only those of the power of means obtain the teachings in a widespread practical manner.There ariseing then two schools within that, one for commoners(simple) and another for those of power and means(complex). The various reform movements in buddhism in Japan may perhaps reflect that balance.A therevadan response may typify that as well in many national histories.

So the tulku may be considered a response to the necessities of formal structural religion.A counterbalance to a tendency towards elitism or corruption by the politic upon the sangha.So is it necessary to have that counterbalance in modern tibetan buddhism in the west....my opinion is yes.The same tendency mostly towards eliteism is quite present it seems.

The question becomes has the tulku tradition now in itself become a extension of the aforementioned issues and now not reflective of a balance but a extreem which produces more push to the corruptive side of things.I'd suppose that is the case currently to my personal observation.

I would suppose that the monastic however still refects the two political influence accomodations caused by the need for finance.So I'd suppose this is a transitional phase which will still require a nonmonastic response of the sangha.In the form of tulku's I'd say probably not..but wouldn't rule it out. As this is a religion under great pressure and in transition.

WE really know not what the product will be. Historically monastic only as sangha eventually corrupts the teachings it appears.HHDL's most recent actions speak to this divide of the politic and the sangha to my opinion. So I personally would not be outrightly demissive of such contentions of influence upon what some consider a completely pure product,(the true believers)..

I would suppose,(this is however a related but not contextual comment)...the edicts for or against monks holding money were a attempt at stopping the apparent corruptions that always arise due to the holding by the monastic of permenant communities in permenant structures.The initial sangha hinted at permenance but did not seemingly realize it.Their being tracts of lands or parklands under use but the diffentiation of summer and winter use and movement restricted such from being constant or considered permenant. So the politic was not the necessity for maintance. With permenance occurs the need for politic.

Last edited by ronnewmexico on Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Namdrol wrote:I have not seen the movie, but I remember our argument on E-Sangha. At best, Gesar is ambivalent about the tulku system -- but when push comes to shove, he believes he is a tulku of an awakened master even though he has no memories of his past life, and so on. So his faith in the tulku system is not really an issue.

That is not true.

On E-Sangha he denied have memories of his past life when I challenged him about it -- that is a fact.

Whether he has changed his story since then is another matter.

That is also not true. The descriptions above, hut meadows etc., he wrote on E-sangha in the same thread you refer to, in which in his own words he "called you out" on.

Namdrol wrote:I have not seen the movie, but I remember our argument on E-Sangha. At best, Gesar is ambivalent about the tulku system -- but when push comes to shove, he believes he is a tulku of an awakened master even though he has no memories of his past life, and so on. So his faith in the tulku system is not really an issue.

That is not true.

On E-Sangha he denied have memories of his past life when I challenged him about it -- that is a fact.

Whether he has changed his story since then is another matter.

He has changed his story. Last August, he tweeted: "Yes I have memories from my past life, at first I thought they were dreams but I never remembered actually dreaming them!"

Perhaps this is unintended but the way this is being used infers some differing tale.Past lives being perceived by one may indeed, as most here know, be a progressive thing for some.With more spiritual understanding comes more recollection.On occasion a circumstance may also presents in which the elicitation of a memory of past lives ensues.A past spiritual life of attainment is perhaps replicated in this life. As that replication occurs prior capacity may also occur.

So I would say it is quite normal for one to have them not one day and have them the next.

Just to clarify that as the term seemed or could be taken to infer a story was being told.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.