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The reason at least for me to want to be super independent is because I know if I rely on people I will rely on them way too much, it's me protecting myself from being too lazy. Because I know I will allow myself to be, and then the people who say "He tries to be too independent." Start saying "He's good for nothing and a moocher." I've experienced this before. Fuck that.

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Perhaps ExFJs with social instinct can mind read you and draw you out. But that is not what my strength would be, especially if someone shuts off and closes all avenues of communication, questioning and delaying things.

But I don’t actively shut people out. I just get quiet and withdrawn. Short answers sort of thing. I dunno, an INTJ friend I have is better at seeing that and getting me talking than anyone. Like recognizes like. INTJ also goes full introvert when troubled, yes?

Feeler types don’t know how to get me to open up because Fi doesn’t want to be all touchy-feely about issues. Sounds like your INFP has some issues. But INFP and both NTJs use Fi so if you care about an INFP who is upset, think of how you yourself want to be treated when upset and you are likely headed in the right direction.

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I like INFPs, I really do, but they just hate touch, they want to be super independent, and they want to complain about how fake people are, but they love the fake ones and need them. They love playing, and if I'm too serious, then they don't like that.Anything I haven't told them upfront can destroy their image of me in an instant.

They can make up their mind and play cold shoulder, but that is final for them. I just don't have the know how, to reach out to them.

Hm, some of this is very true for me as an INFP and some is very not true.

You are having trouble bridging the distance - but I'm surprised by what you've said about being too serious turning INFPs away. We are typically very serious underneath even though we are playful on the surface. What kind of conversations are you having that have been unsuccessful?

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But I don’t actively shut people out. I just get quiet and withdrawn. Short answers sort of thing. I dunno, an INTJ friend I have is better at seeing that and getting me talking than anyone. Like recognizes like. INTJ also goes full introvert when troubled, yes?

Feeler types don’t know how to get me to open up because Fi doesn’t want to be all touchy-feely about issues. Sounds like your INFP has some issues. But INFP and both NTJs use Fi so if you care about an INFP who is upset, think of how you yourself want to be treated when upset and you are likely headed in the right direction.

I wouldn't know because social instinct is a blind spot for me and INTJs aren't good with people. But of course your INTJ is more special than others.

Here is some Enneagram information:

The Blind Spot: The third instinct can be as problematic as the first but for a different reason. It is the area that we ignore due to the polar pull of the dominant. This is the area that we feel isn’t crucial or important, and we generally try to meet the aims of this instinct using the strategies of the dominant and secondary instincts. Integrating this instinct can be as challenging as attempting to tame the dominant. It is clumsy and underused. If the more dominant instincts are experiencing some level of satiation momentarily, the blind spot is easier to integrate. When labelling our stacking, we do not include the blind spot. For example, “SP/SO stacking” refers to dominant SP, secondary SO, and SX blind spot.

Social blind spot - SP/SX and SX/SP

The area that is ignored by these three stackings are the three elements of the Social instinct: Connection/Care, Mindreading, Harmony/Role.

Connection/Care: The connections made by the sexual instinct do not involve bonding or reciprocity. This is not to say that they can’t feel love, but the instinctual drive itself is more concerned with connecting chemically as if getting a drug fix, and maintaining that locked-in high. They can make friendship bonds or other types of relationships with people, but they are often less “close” than it seems. Once the energy of attraction wears off, they might forget to maintain that bond as they search for a new energy fix. They also have less of a “screening process” for the people they interact with. SO has a sense of “good and bad people” built in, or an innate sense of knowing who has the same moral values or psychological understanding of the world. These similarities will bond them together. SO-blinds often ignore this, and the people in their life are less of a “big deal” or of something that needs to be focused on.

Mindreading: SO-blinds are often unaware of certain social cues, or they might ignore them without even intending to rebel against them. The big societal lattice-work of mental mindreading is muted in favour of SP and SX. They may create beautiful art or have great ideas, but they often lack the superb communication skills of a SO-dom who is highly aware of how everything they do is received by others, and is able to respond to their social cues. Lacking this arena of social has behavioural similarities to autism, but is not the same thing.

Harmony/Role: SO-blinds forget to present a sense of “me” and identity beyond being an attraction object for themselves or others. They are less concerned with how others see them and how they fit into the greater context of society or even their own small circle. In a sense, they lack a “genre,” the SO-doms having the clearest sense of this. They will take little pride in being part of any team, being from a particular city/place, having a “crew” or group, etc.

The main facets of SP/SX and SX/SP:

A focus on the self and its needs, the objectifying of others for sex/arousal or instinctual resources

Lack of focus how to present themselves in a way that properly communicates their own message of who they are

Lack of awareness of what makes them bonded to others, who they are in relation to others, how they are relating to others reciprocally

Not being “met,” no communication just for the sake of talking, not looking to connect on something shared, may connect on something but do not identify with the space between two people that the connection brings, they are not bonded by communication

Lacking a sense of social order (Socials can rebel against order but it’s deliberate), and a sense of being “civilized” or “human”

Outsource social to others, have other people keep them in the loop

4 wing 5:
​
4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result, 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.

4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.

Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything, they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.

Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for others (usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal of time and effort on a relationship, the knowledge and self-confidence that make them so successful in other areas can suddenly abandon or mislead them in interpersonal situations.

This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals; for instance, they tend to have little patience and less understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation (which most types consider half the fun of a relationship). To complicate matters, INTJs are usually extremely private people, and can often be naturally impassive as well, which makes them easy to misread and misunderstand. Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense. This sometimes results in a peculiar naivete', paralleling that of many Fs -- only instead of expecting inexhaustible affection and empathy from a romantic relationship, the INTJ will expect inexhaustible reasonability and directness.

Probably the strongest INTJ assets in the interpersonal area are their intuitive abilities and their willingness to "work at" a relationship. Although as Ts they do not always have the kind of natural empathy that many Fs do, the Intuitive function can often act as a good substitute by synthesizing the probable meanings behind such things as tone of voice, turn of phrase, and facial expression. This ability can then be honed and directed by consistent, repeated efforts to understand and support those they care about, and those relationships which ultimately do become established with an INTJ tend to be characterized by their robustness, stability, and good communications.

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Hm, some of this is very true for me as an INFP and some is very not true.

You are having trouble bridging the distance - but I'm surprised by what you've said about being too serious turning INFPs away. We are typically very serious underneath even though we are playful on the surface. What kind of conversations are you having that have been unsuccessful?

Yes, well. Enneagram I’m not sure how seriously I take it but I’m either 5x4 or 4x5 based on the version I take. So again don’t think that INFPs are all warmth and sunshine. We are not.

Not sure your age but I’m familiar with most of what you posted. INTJs are meant to improve at social interactions as they gain experience. Some of it is on the other person to accept who you are and some of it is on you to develop your weaker areas.

If I’m quiet and my INTJ friend makes efforts at small talk, for instance, I know it’s not his thing to do that so I recognize it as a gesture of concern. You mention you ask for facts when people need support. You’ve learned your approach isn’t working so practice something different. Ni insights can masquerade as empathy if empathy isn’t natural to you.

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This relationship breakdown reminds me a lot of when I dated an ISFP male for over a year. Don't let this drag on and on like I did. If it's not even fun to fix, let it go.

It sounds like he thinks you're being pushy and clingy, so he's being reserved and distant. *loud, negative buzzer noise, and a giant red "X" briefly covers your screen* You're at an impasse, a stalemate. The more you push, the more he will retreat, and the more he retreats, the more you'll push. You both aren't going to be able to fix the issues in your relationship, so I say it's not even worth it to stay. Good relationships resolve conflicts and compromise; loser relationships have no communication.

Having a boyfriend is supposed to be fun, but this guy is the opposite of fun. Why let even a friend mooch off you if you don't even have fun with them? I used to have an INFJ roommate, and I would get upset at her sometimes. The way we would get over that was just by having fun together. We have all kinds of accidental fun together, and it gets us back into iNtuitive function land, where we belong. Since this dude is shut off to doing any kind of activity with you, he has killed his Extraverted Perceiving function and only remains in the rigid and solitary world of Introverted Judging. oh:

You're looking to settle down, not settle. And settling with this guy would keep you from living for the rest of your life...

I think INFPs overwhelmingly actually really appreciate the cold facts, but I think before accepting that with open arms we first need to know the person delivering them is someone we can trust - or else our walls go up out of concern that the other person may just be saying whatever they believe for their personal satisfaction regardless of whether it is something that will actually be useful or valuable or even just kind to us. So many people seem to spout off whatever makes them feel good to say without really considering the other person or the quality of the information communicated. Being so sensitive and taking matters so heavily, we INFPs learn to guard against that.

But proving otherwise should actually not be a monumental task for an INTJ... all you have to do is show genuine concern up front, which I know you have. It is just a matter of conveying that to the INFP before taking on the questions and facts - and it can start with just being willing to sit with them and letting them speak and then offering some insights once they ask. A person who really listens and has time and patience to hear one out and take one's thoughts seriously - especially when one is a dreamy but emotionally intense INFP - is really so rare. A person who will take their time to really listen and offer us personally-tailored feedback is likely to become an immediate treasure.

PS - you probably can have retakes - try it like I've suggested and see if you have any luck. We seem to like people who are "crunchy" on the outside and "soft" on the inside!

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Yes, well. Enneagram I’m not sure how seriously I take it but I’m either 5x4 or 4x5 based on the version I take. So again don’t think that INFPs are all warmth and sunshine. We are not.

Not sure your age but I’m familiar with most of what you posted. INTJs are meant to improve at social interactions as they gain experience. Some of it is on the other person to accept who you are and some of it is on you to develop your weaker areas.

If I’m quiet and my INTJ friend makes efforts at small talk, for instance, I know it’s not his thing to do that so I recognize it as a gesture of concern. You mention you ask for facts when people need support. You’ve learned your approach isn’t working so practice something different. Ni insights can masquerade as empathy if empathy isn’t natural to you.

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I think INFPs overwhelmingly actually really appreciate the cold facts, but I think before accepting that with open arms we first need to know the person delivering them is someone we can trust - or else our walls go up out of concern that the other person may just be saying whatever they believe for their personal satisfaction regardless of whether it is something that will actually be useful or valuable or even just kind to us. So many people seem to spout off whatever makes them feel good to say without really considering the other person or the quality of the information communicated. Being so sensitive and taking matters so heavily, we INFPs learn to guard against that.

But proving otherwise should actually not be a monumental task for an INTJ... all you have to do is show genuine concern up front, which I know you have. It is just a matter of conveying that to the INFP before taking on the questions and facts - and it can start with just being willing to sit with them and letting them speak and then offering some insights once they ask. A person who really listens and has time and patience to hear one out and take one's thoughts seriously - especially when one is a dreamy but emotionally intense INFP - is really so rare. A person who will take their time to really listen and offer us personally-tailored feedback is likely to become an immediate treasure.

PS - you probably can have retakes - try it like I've suggested and see if you have any luck. We seem to like people who are "crunchy" on the outside and "soft" on the inside!

As long as @justalookyloo is happy with the information and it is something they can live with. There is no way an INTJ can contort themselves to comply with these requests. As dreamy as they sound. It's fine if you want that, but you can't make someone else change themselves just to please the other person, that leads to codependency, because the person who is changing, is also the enabler.

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I believe that some INFPs either has high or low social skills, and tend to be independent individuals and enjoy to do things alone. So they have to spend some time alone, there is nothing personal.
For example I am INxP or even IxxP not sure but I prefer doing things alone than with people.
Somewhat he sound quiet like an avoidant personality dont like hugs/touch, and enjoy much time for himself etc.

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As long as @justalookyloo is happy with the information and it is something they can live with. There is no way an INTJ can contort themselves to comply with these requests. As dreamy as they sound. It's fine if you want that, but you can't make someone else change themselves just to please the other person, that leads to codependency, because the person who is changing, is also the enabler.

I think if you read these forums you will find many examples of xNFP X xNTJ friendships and relationships where just a little mutual understanding has resulted in high relationship satisfaction for both parties. Many of us are speaking from personal experience. But carry on with whatever works for you, certainly.

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As long as @justalookyloo is happy with the information and it is something they can live with. There is no way an INTJ can contort themselves to comply with these requests. As dreamy as they sound. It's fine if you want that, but you can't make someone else change themselves just to please the other person, that leads to codependency, because the person who is changing, is also the enabler.

Hi! Well, actually I started this thread by asking about ENFJ-INFP and then it switched to a discussion about INFP-INTJ about half way through. It's all good, though! Just wanted to clarify I'm not wanting to contort a INTJ... in fact, I don't even know any INTJs layful: Carry on, though!

I loved this message - thanks ButIHaveNoFear! It's spot on - especially the part about being stuck in introverted judging. There have been more developments since I first posted and I am now ok with moving on. Your message made me feel even more secure in that.

THANK YOU to you and everybody else who shared and reached out. I love this part of the internet :hug:

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I think he is sorting out whether or not he wants to be with you in the long run. He brought up some trivial thing like sports to show you two are incompatible, it seems like he might of used that as an example to say that you two don't share the same values but he could be hinting at more values than just that one. He might secretly disagree with you about other things that are important to him and might not know a way to bring them up in conversation without getting emotional.

I think he's probably hiding some ill feelings he has i the relationship and he might not feel like he can communicate them so he keeps it silent. This could be why he's avoid you and trying to get some time away from the relationship.

I know ENFJs and INFPs can get really close to each other fast, but then they get so close they can get on each other's nerves and need space, like there isn't really a middle ground between the two.

It definetely sounds like he ight of idealized the relationship "Holding your face in his hands and staring at you in the eyes." And is now facing his discomforts with the reality of the relationship. Him trying to get space from you, dive into his hobbies, and lack of attention towards you sounds like he secretly is irritated about something in the relationship and doesn't know how to bring it up in a nice and constructive way.

I do agree his behavior towards you doesn't sound like something you should be dealing with in a relationship, this isn't somehting acceptable that you should work around or accept about him, something silent is going on with him perhaps and it needs to be addressed.

@justalookyloo
I second Lord Pixel in all. Also @entheos is very helpful to make a breakdown of what is normal INFP and what is red flags.

I'm an ENFP married to a INFP. I know my husband was engaged once to a woman who he started to treat like this. He said he just couldn't stand to be with her after the first few months and was also trying to plan time away. He wasn't able to verbalize his negative feelings ever or tell her anything negative-- but he wanted to run away constantly. A INFP will NOT usually tell you their negative thoughts about you. If he is trying to tell you that sports is a reason to break up, what he's really trying to say is "There is a reason to break up." It might be so general that he can't even place the feeling, just wants to get out. Let him get out. Say, "Okay, if that is a big enough deal to you then I guess we need to break up." Let it happen. If he follows you, then you'll know you are worth it to him, but I would be careful.
Here's my biggest thought for you. most people are at their best in the beginning of a relationship.
I'd run.

"Where you stumble, there lies your treasure. The very cave you are afraid to enter turns out to be the source of what you are looking for. The damned thing in the cave, that was so dreaded, has become the center." --Joseph Campbell

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As long as @justalookyloo is happy with the information and it is something they can live with. There is no way an INTJ can contort themselves to comply with these requests. As dreamy as they sound. It's fine if you want that, but you can't make someone else change themselves just to please the other person, that leads to codependency, because the person who is changing, is also the enabler.

I do not see this as change - just an open demonstration of an otherwise private sentiment (sincere goodwill towards another person). It should hardly require contortion. Just a kind word, or sympathetic ear.

In fact I think ENFJs are usually quite good at this. Any introvert tends to have a slight disadvantage in this area, since we are less expressive by nature.

I want this to be a place where we can talk about what is really going on in our minds. Let out your feelings, your thoughts, desires, and confusions of every kind. If you have an insight, or a depressing thought....do share. There are no boundaries here. :)

So I'm pretty sure my boyfriend of 2 years is an ESTJ. He's taken the test and he gets ExTJ but I've come to the conclusion he's ESTJ based on his practical nature around the house, his love of history, his attention to detail etc.
I was quite surprised when I learned his type because I didn't...

So I had this idea for a thread a couple of days ago, and then today I saw @jonkay92 asking for one, how's that for synchronicity @AstralFlame? :laughing: Anyway, after a very meager attempt at finding an already existing one, I was unable to, so I made this.
Pretty much what the title says...