It has been a source of ongoing sadness to read of the difficulties Lauren Richardson’s father has had over the course of the past several months. For those of you who are not familiar with her case, Lauren overdosed on heroin on August 28, 2006. She suffered oxygen deprivation and, as a result of the overdose, is now in a coma and unable to speak out for herself. At the time of the overdose, Lauren was expecting a baby. Her parents honored what they knew would have been her wish and did all they could to keep her healthy and comfortable until the child was born. Today, though Lauren may not be aware of it, she is the mother of Ember Grace, who was born in February 2007.

Since the birth of her daughter, Lauren remains unable to speak of her concerns, but she has a loving father who is doing all he can to protect her from suffering the same fate as Terri Schiavo. However, Lauren’s mother, who has been named her legal guardian, is sadly not of the same opinion and is working with attorneys to pressure the courts to permit Lauren’s starvation.

Lauren’s father has kept hope alive, even at times when there appeared to be no hope in human terms. Lauren’s father is a man of hope in Christ and is dedicated to spending every breath he has on defending Lauren, regardless of what it might cost him in physical exhaustion and worldly goods. The most recent update for those concerned about Lauren tells us the following:

We struggle at times as we seek to share with the public the details of what is happening with Lauren because of the disagreement we have with Lauren’s mother. We cannot understand her reasoning in refusing a path of hope, healing and restoration for Lauren and insisting on causing her death by withholding food and water from her. The issue in Lauren’s case is the eternal truth that all people, no matter what their medical condition, bear the image of God and deserve basic care and an opportunity to be restored to health.

Bobby Schindler, Terri Schiavo’s brother, has written about Lauren in an editorial earlier this year, "False Compassion," and is working closely with Lauren’s father in order to provide expertise that he is uniquely qualified to share during a trying time like this.

There are many links on the Life for Lauren web site that will assist you in tracking this case and learning who is supporting Lauren’s ongoing care and who is opposing it. More importantly, there is something you can do to express your concerns.

ACTION NEEDED NOW

The governor of Delaware, Ruth Ann Minner, is being asked by pro-life Americans across this nation to intervene in this case in order to save Lauren from what many fear is an imminent court order dictating that Lauren be starved and dehydrated to death. I am asking you to be one of those who communicates your passionate belief that Lauren’s life is sacred and deserves to be protected from those who would order her death. The governor’s e-mail address is governor.minner@state.de.us.

Further, it would mean a great deal to Lauren’s father, Randy, if you sent him a copy of your e-mail to Governor Ruth Ann Minner. Randy’s e-mail address is Lifeforlauren@aol.com.

During a recent visit to Anchorage, Alaska where Bobby Schindler was invited to speak, he told a reporter from The Catholic Anchor, "Once we accept that killing is an acceptable answer to human suffering, we lose any type of parameters. Euthanasia is a form of abandonment. It is not compassion."

Truer words were never spoken. As I frequently tell people who argue that we pro-lifers are being heartless and cruel for fighting to defend the rights of a "hopeless case," "God is the author of every human being’s life, and He has never given permission to a single one of us to arbitrarily rob another human being of life for any reason including disability or illness."

As Flannery O’Connor once wrote on the subject of false compassion, "In the absence of faith, we govern by tenderness. And tenderness leads to the gas chamber."

Lauren Richardson is not terminal – she is severely disabled. Lauren Richardson should not be murdered.

Judie Brown is president of American Life League and a member of the Pontifical Academy for Life.

As we have shown time and again, the media perpetuates lies using the old Hitlerean method of shouting them loud and long, so that the lie may be perceived as the truth. It actually works in some cases with those of feeble resistance and even some otherwise reasonable FReepers.

8mm, you're not often wrong but this is an exception, I see ZERO evidence that some of these FRiberal deathbots are "otherwise reasonable."

551
posted on 06/12/2008 4:38:37 AM PDT
by wagglebee
("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)

I gotta agree with Wagglebee here. I quite often google freepers to see where they stand/stood on Terri’s right to life. I have yet to find one person who opposed Terri but expressed reasonable views on any other subject.

I didn’t know all of the freepers who were eliminated on the bug zapper thread last year, but I knew quite a few of them. And of all the ones I knew, every one of them opposed Terri Schiavo. Now, Terri Schiavo had nothing to do with the bug zapper thread, but most of her detractors were eliminated there. Because they were unreasonable across the board.

Now, Terri Schiavo had nothing to do with the bug zapper thread, but most of her detractors were eliminated there. Because they were unreasonable across the board.

I think indirectly Terri did have a lot to do with the bug zapper thread.

The bug zapper thread was about how liberal Rooty was and how his supporters were okay with his liberalism. The main focus of this was abortion (nearly all of the Rooty Rooters were pro-abortion) and the pro-abortion crowd is nearly always pro-euthanasia.

553
posted on 06/12/2008 6:13:32 AM PDT
by wagglebee
("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)

Aw shucks! I was just wishfully thinking one was out there and I just haven't met the miracle troll yet! but I am composing a song, from a new group, Peter, Paul, and Elmer.

Now it is one of T'wit's ear worms stuck between my ears and I can't get it out!!!

Where have all the fly bots gone, long time passing? Where have all the fly bots gone, long time ago? Where have all the fly bots gone? Gone to boot hill, everyone. Oh, when will they ever learn? Oh, when will they ever learn?

Yes, Terri did have an indirect effect on the bug zapper thread. But that’s just it. There was no direct connection. The same people who opposed Terri, opposed every conservative value. They supported Ruity Tuity the Fruity because of his pro-death views. They weren’t banned specifically for their support of the murder of Terri Schiavo. But their support of her murder shaped their entire belief system, so that they were incapable of opposing any evil, or supporting any good.

Bye, bye, Rudy is on Wikipedia under free republic. I’m shocked Wikipedia left Terri Schiavo out but they were out of St. Petersburg, FL so she was probably omitted as just another kissup to the local circuit court judicial tyrants.

Hang on to your spare parts as Professor Pope shows in his blog. Thanks to LesforLife for the tip.

...................................

While we in the United States are working through some of the fuzzy edges of DCD, the Frenchand British are similarly struggling with NHBOD. The British Telegraph reported yesterday that a man whose heart had stopped beating woke up just as surgeons were about to remove his organs for donation.

Doctors in Paris earlier this year called in transplant surgeons after failing to resuscitate a 45-year old man believed to have suffered a massive heart attack in the French capital.

According to a report by the Paris university hospital's ethics committee - seen by Le Monde newspaper - doctors continued providing a heart massage for an hour and a half while they waited for the surgeons to arrive.

When the surgeons began operating on the man to remove his organs, he began to breathe, his pupils became responsive and he reacted to a pain test.

"After a few weeks chequered with serious complications, the patient is now walking and talking," said the report. It is not known whether the man is aware of how close he was to losing his organs.

The incident highlights the ethical problems doctors face in deciding when a donor is really dead.

Emergency service staff interviewed in the report said they knew of other situations where "a person who everyone was convinced was dead survived after prolonged re-animation moves well beyond usual timeframes or even those considered reasonable."

They pointed out that if they had followed the rules to the letter, such patients "would probably have been considered deceased."

In particular, the case is likely to ignite public debate over so-called controlled non-heart-beating organ donation (NHBOD) – retrieving organs when the heart stops, which has only been legal in France since last year. Before then a patient had to be declared brain dead before transplant could occur. NHBOD is legal in the UK.

"All specialised medical literature on the subjects allows one to conclude that a person who has suffered cardiac arrest and has had proper heart massage for over 30 minutes is, for all purposes, brain dead," said Professor Alain Tenaillon, in charge of organ transplants at France's biomedical agency. "But one must acknowledge that exceptions do exist ... there are no hard and fast rules on best practice," he told Le Monde.

Some 13,000 people are awaiting organ donations in France, a far higher number than in Britain, with 7,700 awaiting organs, despite France's a so-called opt-out system. This means everyone gives their "presumed consent" to having their organs removed after death unless either they have refused permission or if their family objects.

In the UK, people "opt in" to the donation system by carrying a donor card or signing the Organ Donor Register. A Department of Health task force is currently looking into the opt-out system.

The case has been moved from the back burner to the front in this just in. They want a hurry up killing, dang it. Already, the doctor assigned to the kill had stomped off in a tantrum because of the long wait to satisfaction. What is such a body to do?

.................................

A Manitoba judge has moved up the date for a trial that'll determine whether an elderly Winnipegger should be kept on life support.

The case surrounding the care of Samuel Golubchuk was to start in December, but Court of Queen's Bench Justice Marc Monnin sided yesterday with an application from the Grace Hospital to move the trial up to mid-September.

The hospital says the task of caring for Golubchuk is taking a toll on staff, and one intensive care specialist has already stopped working rotations at the facility in protest.

Golubchuk, 84, has been on life support since last November and is relying on a feeding tube and a ventilator. Hospital officials decided last year to end Golubchuk's life support, saying he had virtually no chance of improving. But the Golubchuk family took the matter to court, saying the move would violate his beliefs as an Orthodox Jew.

Karen Weber is a fresh case for a pitch for advance directives, that's all.

.............................

WTVG -- The Advance Care Planning Coalition says you need to make it clear who will speak for you if you can't.

A feeding tube keeps her alive. Her sister wants to keep her on it, but her husband does not. What you can do if it happens to you? The message is to talk to your family.

Karen Weber, 57, is caught in the middle of an emotional struggle and a legal battle. In December, a stroke left Weber partially paralyzed. She's currently in a Florida nursing home while her sister lives in Sylvania Township. She explains Karen can still laugh, cry, and nod yes or no, but that she can't live without a feeding tube.

Her husband wants to take her off it, but members of Karen's family have filed an injunction which temporarily prevents him from doing so. This type of conflict can be avoided with a living will. The Advance Care Planning Coalition says you don't need a lawyer. You just need to make it clear who will speak for you if you can't. "And since there are different decisions that can be made, depending on a person's values, the more they tell their family ahead of time, and even get it in writing, the better that care will be," says RN Patti Beach.....

Bush is in a tight spot indeed. With Democratic strategists like Lockhart hopeful that the slew of blunders on Social Security has pierced the White Houses aura of political invincibility, Social Security may seem a harbinger of rough waters ahead for the GOP. The same Wall Street Journal/NBC poll found the Republican base splintering on a number of key issues, from reinsertion of Terri Schiavos feeding tube to banning the use of filibusters on judicial nominees. Says Lockhart: I think Democrats are in a wonderful position to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

Faith and Politics is also offers a tour of the wedge issues, and here Danforth is often at his best, illuminating each issue through the prism of his life experience. His powerful critiques of the Christian Right on the issues of stem cell research, religion in the public square, and the Terri Schiavo matter are worth reading in their own right. He writes movingly of his evolution on gay rights. Recalling a former staffer who broke down in tears because she was gay and feared his disapproval, he declares, I know I want no part in the meanness that causes this kind of misery. Danforth also offers ways in which we might work to return a sense of civility to politics, though one wishes that he had chosen a subject other than Clarence Thomas as the focal point of his chapter decrying character assassination.....

The only problem? Crist hurts McCain more than he helps him. For starters, Florida already looks like a lock for McCain; he leads by 8.3 percent in the latest polls, and the state's senior citizens, Cuban-Americans, military families and Southern transplants provide the senator with a clear demographic edge over Obama--not to mention that Crist will campaign for McCain in the Sunshine State whether or not he's on the ticket. Secondly, Crist may be a social conservative on paper, but the Christian right is wary of him--to put it mildly. He pulled his support for the gay marriage amendment. He created a socialized insurance market in Florida. He speaks out against global warming. As attorney general, he refused to intervene in the Terry Schiavo debacle. And, worst of all, he was once pro-choice and, although nominally pro-life today, displays little enthusiasm for abortion issues. "It would be seen as a slap in the face to the Evangelical base," writes the Christian Broadcasting Network's David Brody. Conservative activist Jim Backlin has gone one step further. ""If the goal of the campaign is to shore up the base of the party, which is still critically needed, that pick would do exactly the opposite," he has said. "Many social conservatives, and conservatives in general, would sit on their hands this election." Needless to say, McCain can ill-afford to further alienate the right wing of the Republican party. Finally, Crist is unmarried, having divorced in 1980 after a year of marriage, and his swinging singledom has been the subject of much speculation, including (somewhat conflicting) rumors of homosexuality and an out-of-wedlock child. Crist denies the charges--both completely unproven--but, as a conservative commentator Michael Medved notes, "such reports... would receive lavish and detailed press coverage the moment Crist appeared on a ticket with a very real chance that stories about his dating life over the last 28 years would drown out serious discussion of his accomplishments."

After his trip to Sedona, Crist told reporters that he "ate too much, had some great chicken, great barbecue.'' He should treasure the memory--because it doesn't look like McCain will be serving him desert anytime soon..........

The ONLY bright spot I can envision in a McLame presidency would be a concervative VP. I think there is a strong possibility that health reasons would prevent him from seeking reelection in 2012 and it would go a long way to take a lesser known conservative and promote them to national prominence. I think the PERFECT person is Sarah Palin of Alaska.

572
posted on 06/13/2008 4:52:07 AM PDT
by wagglebee
("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)

Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) -- Americans will have an opportunity to review the life and death of Terri Schiavo tonight and next week as the television program a disabled woman produces will focus on how Terri was subjected to a painful euthanasia death. Joni Eareckson Tada, whose ministry produces "Joni and Friends," is behind the show.

Like Schiavo, Tada is a disabled woman herself -- having become paralyzed at a younger age in a diving accident.

Tada has put together two 30 minutes programs airing tonight and July 19 that will explore the debate surrounding Terri and be broadcast globally via Trinity Broadcasting Network........

Don't forget to tune into America's Lifeline on Talk Radio 860 WGUL this Saturday, June 14th at 3pm, ET. America's Lifeline is also streamed worldwide via the internet at Talk Radio 860 WGUL. For those outside the Tampa area, simply log onto terrisfight.org and click on the 860 TALK RADIO LOGO button.

This Saturday our special guest will be Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer. Father Euteneuer is the president of Human Life International (HLI) - the world's largest pro-life organization with affiliate offices and associates in eighty countries around the world.

Father Euteneuer's pro-life activity began in the early years of his priesthood and he has spoken directly to tens of thousands of people all over the world spreading the Gospel of Life as well as making many appearances on local and national television. Father's now-famous Fox News interview with Sean Hannity on the subject of contraception has merited him both praise and criticism for his defense of Church teaching.

Recently, yet another situation similar to that of my sister Terri Schiavo has made headlines. In West Palm Beach, Florida, Raymond Weber is asking the court to dehydrate his disabled wife, Karen, to death.

If you have read any of the reports in mainstream media, it’s just another case of a husband looking out for the “best interest” of his spouse. And just as in Terri’s case, Raymond Weber is asking the government to deliberately kill his wife who is not dying and is guilty of nothing more than having difficulty swallowing and therefore needing help, in the form of a feeding tube, to eat.

Not surprisingly, in a story by the AP, was a quote from the husband’s attorney who so touchingly referred to his client’s brain-injured wife as a “vegetable,” thus offending the tens of thousands of people and their families who do live with a profound brain injury.

The reporter also wrote that the decision whether Karen should live or die will depend upon whether or not a committee finds her “competent” to go on living. Yes, that is correct, competent enough to live. I guess passing an IQ test will be next.

Factors such as what is being taught in our medical schools, the breakdown of our health care system, the powerful influence of assisted suicide organizations, and the propaganda of our mainstream media have taken their toll.

As a result, the physically and mentally “inferior” are being denied the most basic care—food and water—in our nation’s medical facilities every day. (Thank goodness we have laws making it a felony if we do the same to an animal, although I would expect there would be a greater outcry if it were the family pets at risk.)

Equally as disturbing is the fact that our politicians, including our two presidential candidates, ignore this issue and because of it are failing in one of the most important responsibilities they have as leaders—to protect our most vulnerable citizens.

Perhaps our general public doesn’t have a clue as to how widespread this problem is in our nation today. This ignorance is in large part because of a stealth and powerful lobby who support patient dehydration based on quality of life judgments. This has slowly but surely changed our laws regarding food and water. Nutrition and hydration through a feeding tube, once considered basic care, are now recognized as “artificial nutrition and hydration”—and therefore a form of “medical treatment.” Continued...

This was posted from inside the cauldren on Friday 13th, but I really think these critters have no idea of the humor they inspire. We may find a touch of humor in reading from a far leftist tunnel vision, as a glimpse into wacky thought. Naturally, with lefties like Patty Murray, we can expect their burden of Terri's Legacy as a source of whine.

Fascinating, that assorted and sundry leftists, communists, terrorists and fellow progressives all love the dickens out of The Obama Nation.

.......................

Well, tonight's gala banquet is off to a pleasant start. Just moments ago, State Democratic Party Chairman Dwight Pelz kicked things off by welcoming Democrats to the 2008 Convention and reflecting optimistically on the party's chances of taking back the White House.

He also railed against Sam Reed's "goofy" primary and jeered at Dino Rossi for submitting "GOP" next to his name on the ballot instead of Republican.

Pelz introduced Senator Patty Murray, who was warmly welcomed.

Murray devoted much of her speech to the Bush administration's stubborn resistance to progressive change and the hope that Barack Obama's campaign is bringing to America. Murray drew a standing ovation when she touched on Mess o'potamia, declaring, "I knew I was right when I voted against the war in Iraq."

Murray told Democrats that she has witnessed a sea change in Congress even without a Democratic president in the White House. "Finally, instead of talking about flag burning and Terri Schiavo, we're having real debates," she stated.

But she noted that Dubya still occupies 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and the Democratic majority in the Senate is slim.

"Time and time again, we have seen this president take out his veto pen and say no to families, no to children, and no to our men and women in uniform," Murray thundered. "What is the Republicans' answer [to challenges like Iraq, or bringing universal healthcare to America]? Obstruction!"

What Congress needs, Murray added, is more Democrats.

"Wouldn't it be great if we could add Mark Mays, George Fearing, and another woman, Darcy Burner, to our congressional delegation?" she asked to applause.

Still on the subject of far left loonies all coming together for a love in fest with beloved guru, Obama Hussain Muhammad, we glimpse another hero of the death enthusiasts, this one who earned her stripe with the abortion of both mom and kid in the Sharon Tate murder.

What would Charles Manson do?

Thread by Lizavetta with a thanks for the ping to PhilDragoo.

Didn't Dr. Death also get a release for health reasons and suddenly find himself cured and free?

CORONA, Calif. (AP)  Former Charles Manson follower Susan Atkins, convicted in the 1969 murder of actress Sharon Tate, could soon be released from prison because she is near death, authorities said.

Why, this convicted murderess with her bent for speeding up death just may come up with an all new Atkins diet for those chosen.

Atkins, 59, is terminally ill and being considered for so-called "compassionate release," state corrections spokeswoman Terry Thornton said. She gave no details of Atkins' illness, but said a doctor had determined she had less than six months to live.

The corrections department was reviewing the request, which if approved would then be passed to the state Board of Parole which has the power to release Atkins under state law so they can die with loved ones, at their expense....

Great thread and posts by wagglebee and others on this most important decision we can possibly imagine.

June 12, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com/insidecatholic.com) - Sen. John McCain reached out to Catholic voters yesterday in Philadelphia at a gathering of Catholic lay leaders and clergy. The meeting, held at the venerable Union League on South Broad St., is one in an ongoing series being held nationwide by McCain and his Catholic surrogates - Sen. Sam Brownback, Gov. Frank Keating, and former Vatican ambassador Jim Nicholson.

Before his remarks, McCain met privately with Rev. Frank Pavone, president of Priests for Life. Father Pavone's organization promotes voter education and registration throughout the nation, and his pro-life advocacy has been crucial in bringing the non-negotiable life issues to the attention of Catholic voters.

In his prayer before McCain spoke, Father Pavone prayed that the "Lord would let all Christians know they are still His sons and daughters when they are in the voting booth."

The first issue addressed by McCain was abortion. He said that the "noblest words ever written" were "the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." McCain believes that those words "apply to the unborn." He reminded the Philadelphia Catholics of his pro-life voting record, adding that he would "maintain that commitment" if elected president.............

More coverage of Dudley Goodlette and chances for the Florida courts, a Lytle update....

Goodlettes candidacy blazed from a story this past week by Steve Bousquet, Tallahassee bureau chief for the St. Petersburg Times. He wrote: "Goodlette, 60, was known as a diligent and well-prepared lawmaker who got along well with Democrats and Republicans, and was a strong defender of an independent judiciary."

"Unlike most applicants for the court," Bousquet wrote, "Goodlette held a partisan political office and has a voting record that reflects his views. He voted with the Republican House majority on two highly contentious issues struck down as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court: allowing then-Gov. Jeb Bush to override the courts in the Terri Schiavo case in October 2003 and tax-supported school vouchers in April 1999.".........

TANROW, June 13, 2008 (CWNews.com/LifeSiteNews.com) - A Polish volleyball star who was buried on June 9 is being compared by local Catholics to Blessed Gianna Beretta Molla because of her heroic sacrifice for her unborn child.

Agata Mroz, who was originally known for her athletic prowess, was buried in her hometown of Tarnow. Mroz was pregnant with her first child when doctors discovered she had a fatal case of leukemia. After consulting with her husband, Mroz delayed a bone-marrow transplant until after she gave birth to her daughter Liliana on April 4, 2008.......

During the last decade of her life, my ancient grandmother always set the mood for our family Christmases by announcing as soon as she arrived for lunch that she wanted to die.

While the rest of us thanked each other extravagantly for the socks, ties and scarves we would never wear, she would bang on and on about how much she hoped this Christmas would be her last on Earth.

I'll never forget the one that really did turn out to be her last. This was her 91st Christmas, and my mother had asked along one of the family's oldest friends, a Roman Catholic priest, to try to cheer the old girl up. It wasn't working......

I have been saying of the Marx brothers, ObamaNation was Karl. Here is more perspective on this commie revolutionary. Thread by Bill Dupray with thanks to narses for the ping.

Photos and video. First a flag of Commie thug, Che Guevara appears on the wall of Obama's campaign office. Now a judge has a Che picture on the wall right next to an Obama picture. Communists advocate the overthrow of the United States. These people support Obama, agree with his policies, and want him to win.

You, etixos always show up here to call me a LIAR or to mock Terri’s freepers. What kind of cheap thrill is that? Apparently, it works for you. We are done communicating as of........................now.

Captain Kirk, is that you going boldly where no Terri's freeper has gone before? Congratulations. This will help us expose the immoral and illegal acts involving euthanasia.

I listened to Terri's Lifeline yesterday. Every week Bobby will answer questions and he always says, "When they were killing my sister."

How absolutely tragic that an American was killed by "them" her own country? Bobby never says who they is but it was the government. What they were doing to Terri is always the same, a killing. Protecting life from euthanasia is a new civil right.

Etixos, I know that in your very short time on FR you have been told that the Terri Dailies threads ARE NOT open for debate and this is with Jim Robinson’s blessing. This thread is 100% PRO-LIFE and we define pro-life as being that ALL HUMANS have the ABSOLUTE right to life from the moment of conception until the moment of natural death, ANYTHING that is done to facilitate a person’s death is morally wrong and completely inconsistent with what conservatives believe.

If you want to learn, we are happy to have you here. If you have legitimate questions, we will do our best to answer them. However, something that starts along the lines of, “Don’t you think” and then follows with pro-death talking points, IS NOT a legitimate question. If you are looking to push a pro-death agenda, there MAY be a few threads on FR where you will find support and there are certainly other forums (some even believe they are conservative) that will welcome these views.

I am a patient person as are most of the other regulars on the Terri Dailies threads, and while I won’t presume to speak for them, you are certainly testing my patience.

592
posted on 06/15/2008 4:36:38 PM PDT
by wagglebee
("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)

Note the website link at the end. ..........................................

OKEECHOBEE — Karen Weber's descent into limbo began on Florida's Turnpike in November. She and her husband of 34 years, Raymond, had driven to Orlando International Airport to pick up her mother.

On the way home to Okeechobee, happy talk about Gracie, the new baby in the family, ended suddenly when Karen had a seizure. Her husband drove quickly to a hospital.

That seizure and a second one led to a paralyzing stroke and now, seven months later, Karen, 57, lies in a nursing home as family members battle over whether to remove the feeding tube that keeps her alive, a circumstance similar to the Terri Schiavo case of 2005.

Weber is paralyzed on her left side and cannot speak, but she breathes on her own.

Raymond Weber believes she is in a vegetative state and wants the feeding tube removed and his wife transferred to hospice care, where she probably would die.

But her mother, Martha Tatro, and other family members say she is alert and responsive.

An Okeechobee County circuit judge has issued an injunction, which husband and mother agreed to, blocking removal of the tube until he decides whether she is capable of deciding herself.

The judge also appointed a guardian for her and a committee of two psychologists and a neurologist to give their opinions. Karen had no living will or other health-care directive.

"Mr. Weber is of the opinion that Karen does not want to live as a vegetable and that she would prefer the body to take its natural course," said his attorney, Colin Cameron.

Raymond doesn't want to discuss the case, Cameron said. "He's doing everything he can to keep this a private family matter," he said.

"I don't want this to become a media event," Raymond told The Associated Press two weeks ago.

Karen's mother said there is no doubt she is aware of what's going on. "She blinks for yes or no. She shakes her head. She waves goodbye and she can laugh at jokes," Tatro said. "She likes for us to get on each side of the bed and tell her funny stuff. She likes to be in the center of the conversation."

Tatro-Manes, who is studying for a doctorate in education and has visited twice from her home in Toledo, said, "It's not 'Look at that tree' and she laughs. She's laughing at specific things that she can relate to."

John Cook, Karen's court-appointed attorney, recently visited her for 45 minutes. "I saw some improvement. In my first visit, she was having some medical issues," he said.

Tatro spends at least seven hours a day at her daughter's bedside. Raymond often was there with her. But the atmosphere has become awkward and tense, she said, and they sometimes take turns.

Karen is the oldest of Tatro's three children. She grew up in Cleveland, then moved to Toledo with the family. She worked as a telephone operator for Hudson's department store.

She met Raymond Weber at a party. They married and moved to Reno, Nev., where she worked as a switchboard supervisor at the MGM Grand Casino. Her husband and two partners ran an underground cable contracting company.

Later they moved to Valencia, Calif., where she spent 20 years raising her family of two sons and a daughter. Raymond sold his interest in the company six years ago and the couple moved in with Tatro in Okeechobee, she said.

Tatro, a retired deputy municipal clerk in Toledo, and her two younger sisters followed an older sister to Okeechobee.

"I gave them (the Webers) the master bedroom. I treated him like a son," she said.

Tatro said she and Raymond had discussed her daughter's quality of life but she was stunned when he sought an order to move her to hospice care and remove the feeding tube.

"I couldn't believe it," she said. "Karen was not that disabled."

She looked for a lawyer. "No attorney here would take the case, so I filed myself," she said.

Her two-paragraph petition read, in part, "Karen has made the nurses and others aware of her wishes to stay at the (Okeechobee Health and) Rehabilitation Center and is aware that when she goes to the Hospice Center that is her death sentence."

Tatro-Manes, Karen's sister, contacted several right-to-life organizations to find a lawyer. The Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund agreed to take her case.

Like Schiavo, Karen has no living will. But unlike Schiavo, Weber has not been found to be incompetent to handle her affairs. Schiavo was found to be in a persistent vegetative state.

"She's able to make this decision and even if she wasn't, she's expressed through conversations that she was on Terri's side and she wouldn't want to die," said Tatro's attorney, Joseph Rodowicz.

The Schiavo case gathered national attention when her husband sought to have her feeding tube removed against the wishes of her parents. President Bush and Congress became involved, but the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a law, allowing her husband to prevail. She died March 31, 2005, nearly two weeks after a final appeal and a circuit judge ordered her tube removed.

If the judge finds Karen incompetent to handle her own affairs, he probably will appoint a guardian, which could be her husband or her mother.

Meanwhile, Tatro is fearful that her daughter's body will become less responsive unless physical therapy resumes. Therapy has stopped twice, once when she was hospitalized for an infection and another time when she developed pneumonia.

Tatro bought her daughter a $5,000 bed that moves her periodically so that fluid doesn't build up in her lungs. "I could take her home tomorrow if she could get rid of the medical problems. Stroke problems, I can handle those," she said.

Some time in mid-September a Manitoba judge will make what is likely to be a life or death decision in the Samuel Golubchuk case.

Mr. Golubchuk is a frail, elderly man whose condition while in hospital deteriorated to the point doctors felt there was no hope of recovery. He was placed on life support last November and his family subsequently took the hospital to court when it sought to withdraw those measures.

Mr. Golubchuk's family was granted a temporary injunction last December preventing the hospital from removing him from artificial life support.

The case involving Mr. Golubchuk's care had originally been slated to begin in December however last week Court of Queens Bench Justice Marc Monnin agreed with an application by the Grace Hospital to move up the trial date. The Grace says caring for Mr. Golubchuk is taking a toll on staff and already one intensive care specialist has stopped working rotations at the hospital in protest.

At the heart of this matter is the type of emotional end-of-life decision faced by hundreds of Manitoba families every year. Have we done enough for our loved one? Should we let them go?

In order to ensure all reasonable attempts at treatment are considered, dying patients are often artificially kept alive when their own systems fail. As well as a duty of care it is also a kindness to families giving them a chance to prepare for what will likely happen when artificial supports are withdrawn. In a hospital situation, indefinite life support really isn't considered a long-term option. That type of care places tremendous demands on staff and resources and may well be unfair to others.

In December of 2007 Arthur Schafer director of the University of Manitoba ethics centre, was asked to comment on the case.

Appearing on Canada AM Schafer said "families must realize that with a shortage of hospital beds, one person's provision is another person's deprivation." Schafer also noted that while bodies can be kept alive through artificial means, "the person you are can't be kept alive... I don't think that's a sensible use of resources and I don't think that the hospitals can accommodate such wishes"

The Golubchuk family, not surprisingly disagrees.

On their Save Samuel Golubchuk web page his daughter Miriam states he is currently receiving "basic care" at the hospital which includes being given food and water and assistance in breathing through the use of a ventilator. She further says "rather than giving up the hospital is continuing to fight us for the right to kill our father."

The family has started a petition seeking to demand the hospital cease its case against them and "continue providing treatment for Sam according to their wishes and instructions."

Whether the removal of extraordinary artificial measures of life support constitutes "killing" someone is a matter of semantics and better left for the courts to decide. Make no mistake however; it's a decision sure to have wide reaching significance.

Most families, my own included have been or will be faced with this type of heart-wrenching decision.

Ping to this thread by jy22077 on situations like that of Terri. Thanks, FV, for the ping.

Many families are faced with decisions about what to do when their loved ones suffer serious brain injury. When individuals are unlikely to come out of so-called "vegetative states," should we discontinue nourishing them by tube feeding? Is there anything wrong with causing patients in compromised states to die from starvation and dehydration under these circumstances? We all lived through such a decision when Terri Schiavo died in 2005 in Florida. Her death raised disturbing ethical questions that continue to reverberate in society today..........

Ping to this thread by jy22077 on situations like that of Terri. Thanks, FV, for the ping.

Many families are faced with decisions about what to do when their loved ones suffer serious brain injury. When individuals are unlikely to come out of so-called "vegetative states," should we discontinue nourishing them by tube feeding? Is there anything wrong with causing patients in compromised states to die from starvation and dehydration under these circumstances? We all lived through such a decision when Terri Schiavo died in 2005 in Florida. Her death raised disturbing ethical questions that continue to reverberate in society today..........

>>No, I was just trying to correct an outright falsehood, but in a polite way. Telling truth is never "smarmy" Trying to throw your weight around with gratuitous insults is, however..

To you, Etixos, your intent may have been politeness, and to you it may have sounded polite. But it is not what you mean so much as how your communication is received by others. It does come across to folks like me and others like me as smarmy and hostile. Whatever you meant, this is what you conveyed. Recall Bobby Burns...

"Oh wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursel's as others see us! It wad frae monie a blunder free us, And foolish notion."

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