So a lot of explanations on the Game and the Nerds I'm guessing. Good we kind of need it by now.

Ugh. You just *HAD* to mention the Game, didn't you?

flower power, I HAD AN UNTAINTED THREE MONTH STREAK

On a positive note, it seems like answers may be falling thick and fast in the next few pages; as much as I adore the side arcs, the main story has been teasing me forever. What effect this has on Joel/King will be most interesting in my opinion - if Pete is sentenced, does that mean the spell wears off? (at an inappropriate time?) Or will he be given a choice that he can affect for once?

Note that Rick can warp mythology like he pleases, but traditionally Cerberus (or Kerberos) is the name of a unique creature, not a species.

It's the same with "pegasi" *argh*. The name of winged horses is pterippus, whereas Pegasus was a singular being born from the blood of the slain Medusa.

Dunno if the Greeks had a dedicated term for hellhounds, but seeing as she works in heaven she's more or less an angel anyway.

Sleet Wrote:

Cerberus used to be holding open a door. But because the background wasn't as detailed as the foreground, her thumb (all that was visible) looked like a nub coming out of her shoulder.

Yep, sounds outcry-worthy, alright. :V

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Tue May 15, 2012 2:48 pm

IceKitsune

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:35 pmPosts: 4687Location: Ohio

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

copper Wrote:

You know, the more I think about it, the more I seem to think that Pete's Punishment will be something like to carry out Joel's prison sentence for him as a human....

The art looks good either way to me. I like all of it!

That pose in panel 2 looks familiar...

Personally I'm still going with either he has to stay away from King or be Kings slave to make it up to him. (effectively making King Pete's Avatar but with the roles reversed.) I hope for the first one myself. Plus the second option would kind of screw over the U&U game (as far as we know right now anyway) since King isn't going to want to play and even if he did play he would have a vested interest in making Pete lose as revenge.

Tue May 15, 2012 3:04 pm

Radio Blue Heart

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:27 pmPosts: 2642Location: North Carolina

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Heaven's dungeon? Wouldn't that be Hell?

And chaining himself up! Pete you're such a drama queen!

Pete: Does this remind you of old times, sweetheart?

*Cerberus punches him!*

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Tue May 15, 2012 4:32 pm

PhoenixAsper

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:38 amPosts: 579

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Meant to post this yesterday...

I can has drama/universe truth/Pete's motives/seriousness/Apetcalypse now? Why am I concerned he'll get off on some sort of technicality? Or have a VERY good and satisfying (at least to the cosmic beings) explanation for his actions that lets him have free reign of BG again?

I sense another year's end cliffhanger approaching. However, Rick DID say a direct sequel to Show Business was also in the works late this month (or next, at the rate this will go), so maybe that will tie into it. Anyway, I think we're about to find out some MAJOR plot points.

EDIT: Has anybody ever considered that Pete and SD are working towards the SAME goal in the Cosmic Game, but using different paths to get to it? SD could be the player who plays the straight good guy/girl role, while Pete is "the ends justify the means" type. And Pete COULD be working to make BG and the world it is in a better place, but be using rather blunt and tyrannical means to do it.

Tue May 15, 2012 6:26 pm

Dissension

Devil Skirrl

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:42 pmPosts: 8606Images: 0

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Or Universes & Unrealities really is just a game with no greater cosmic significance. That's been my guess so far and I intend to stick with it.

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Tue May 15, 2012 7:19 pm

IceKitsune

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:35 pmPosts: 4687Location: Ohio

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

PhoenixAsper Wrote:

EDIT: Has anybody ever considered that Pete and SD are working towards the SAME goal in the Cosmic Game, but using different paths to get to it? SD could be the player who plays the straight good guy/girl role, while Pete is "the ends justify the means" type. And Pete COULD be working to make BG and the world it is in a better place, but be using rather blunt and tyrannical means to do it.

The U&U game is basically D&D, and in D&D usually each player character has their own goals in mind plus an overall goal for the party. (at least how I understand it.) Now considering that Pete and SD don't really seem to be working together as far as we know; (otherwise it would be stupid of Dragon to try and interfere, even though she ended up doing nothing according to Rick, with Pete getting out of his Temple.) which I will admit could be wrong since we basically have zero idea of how this game even works, other then its somewhat like D&D, its likely that in this game there is no party and therefore no overall goal only personal goals.

Dissension Wrote:

Or Universes & Unrealities really is just a game with no greater cosmic significance. That's been my guess so far and I intend to stick with it.

Also this is likely true. They are very, very, very likely playing just for fun or some stupid bet, maybe for money on the Celestial equivalent of it or something equally stupid.

Tue May 15, 2012 7:28 pm

DanTwelve3

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:45 pmPosts: 174Location: Twin Cities

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

It may be just a game to those superior beings, but they sure have messed with the lives of mere mortals. I do wonder how long one of their U&U games take, considering immortal beings aren't exactly in a hurry.

Big things are gonna happen this arc!

Tue May 15, 2012 9:03 pm

Aticston

Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:26 amPosts: 26

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Liam Wrote:

Note that Rick can warp mythology like he pleases, but traditionally Cerberus (or Kerberos) is the name of a unique creature, not a species.

It's the same with "pegasi" *argh*. The name of winged horses is pterippus, whereas Pegasus was a singular being born from the blood of the slain Medusa.

Dunno if the Greeks had a dedicated term for hellhounds, but seeing as she works in heaven she's more or less an angel anyway.

Sleet Wrote:

Cerberus used to be holding open a door. But because the background wasn't as detailed as the foreground, her thumb (all that was visible) looked like a nub coming out of her shoulder.

Yep, sounds outcry-worthy, alright. :V

I think Pete should be lucky he got stopped by Cerberus, and not the Cherub

If it was the Cherub that stopped him, I don't think there wouldn't be enough of him left to fill a thimble

EDIT1: PhoenixAsper, just who the **** is SD? You mean Dragon?

So far the only -TWO- players of the game is Pete and Dragon, King was made into an impromptu "hostile" third party player, and Kitsune is playing the impartial third party which is enforcing the rules

Mod Edit: Please do not use that word as profanity. It can be used here exclusively to refer to the location.

Last edited by Aticston on Tue May 15, 2012 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Note that Rick can warp mythology like he pleases, but traditionally Cerberus (or Kerberos) is the name of a unique creature, not a species.

Counter-Note: this is THE Cerberus who is female in this universe.

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Tue May 15, 2012 11:24 pm

Aticston

Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:26 amPosts: 26

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

RandomGeekNamedBrent Wrote:

Liam Wrote:

Note that Rick can warp mythology like he pleases, but traditionally Cerberus (or Kerberos) is the name of a unique creature, not a species.

Counter-Note: this is THE Cerberus who is female in this universe.

Actually in greek mythology, Cerberus isn't a evil creature, its a good one.

It guards the gates of hell, not to keep people out, but to keep evil in, as from far as I know mythology, there is way, way worse things in hell then just corrupt gods and fallen angels.

And the Cherub guards the gates of heaven, which only goal is to keep evil out, and let those worthy in.

And to summarize the Cherub's power, its a being of no will, only function, whose power is that such that it even the infinite power of the gods must concede too it as they have no control over it, as the Cherub's only role is to destroy evil and keep the heavens free from it.

Oh and there's three of them.

And as far as mythology goes, The Cerberus and Cherub are about dead even on strength. Like I said though, Cerberus keeps the evil in hell, Cherub keeps the evil out of heaven

*EDIT* I forget if Cerberus has a soul, or free will, I know Cerberus has been lured away from the gates of hell on several occasions to let some really evil things escape, but I know that the Cherub's was made without a soul or free will, and function by design, not by thought. Think of them like anti-virus for evil.

Only problem with the Cherub is without free will, and the lack of soul, and unable to command them, they are hilariously easy to circumvent, if you wanted to speak about track records, Cerberus screws up and lets out some ultimate evil escape every eon on so, but evil beings who know how the function of the cherub works, heaven pretty much has a revolving door policy, which is why the warrior cast of angels in heaven (Flaming swords, harps that shoot flaming arrows, no really, that's why they have harps, not to play music, but fire flaming holy arrows) are so bloody busy policing heaven at all times.

Tue May 15, 2012 11:32 pm

IceKitsune

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:35 pmPosts: 4687Location: Ohio

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Bahamut looks pretty cool I have to say. and nice to see Kitsune back there

Kitsune, always the theatrical one. Gotta love him for that. He knows how to set a scene.

All omniscient beings in one place... a scary and yet boring scenario indeed.

Wonder how the story will go after this. Bahamut looks nice.

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Wed May 16, 2012 12:55 am

_Stu_

Banner Artist

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:44 amPosts: 1572Images: 3

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Baham really looks like a dragon/sci-fi/judge version of Godot from Ace Attorney... curious. Still nice of course

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Wed May 16, 2012 1:05 am

Aticston

Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:26 amPosts: 26

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

*groan* Please do not make them all seeing, all knowing, its self defeatist of plot in the worst way.

The reason why is it does not have logical restrictions and boundaries. If they all know what Pete did, what took place for what he did, they know not only all events before it, but after. Which makes it, really lame. I mean, hyper lame. It means to them, all logical decisions have been made long before these events took place, meaning Pete knew he was going to get caught, he knew he was going to lose the fate, he knew Joel would end up with it, he knew he would be on trial, and he knows what will happen after the trial, the whole "What has been, been, what will be, will be"

*rubs forhead* don't throw around the word Omniscient unless you are willing to sacrifice plot like corn to a starving pig. If you are dead set on moving forwards with it, drastically try to reign in the "Scope" of what the word means in the housepets universe, cause otherwise the story will end up going nowhere.

Like say, Pete knew doing this he would end up on trial, end up getting guilty cast on him, get something like his powers stripped, end up on earth or something, end up redeeming himself, end up back in heaven with powers intact etc etc. Like, -THAT- is what Omniscient means. It means knowing everything, before, current and future. Basically, it throws "Free will" and "Choice" totally and completely out the window, making not only this trail a giant sham, but the whole continuity of the housepets universe a sham as well.

And if you only mean it as "See everything past to present" then you still are left with the giant flipping elephant in the room because -ALL- these supreme beings knew why Pete was in heaven and what he was doing, yet only Cerberus lifted a finger to do anything about it. They knew about the game, they knew about Pete abusing Joel, they knew -ALL- this stuff, and refused to lift a finger as Pete basically toyed with Joel like a chew toy.

The other elephant in the room is that if they are omniscient and all knowing, why even bring up such a element as "Fate" for Joel? I personally do not believe in "Fate" in a personal sense, I find it the biggest self defeating aspect of human nature and understanding. Pr-destined reality is a terrible thing to even attempt to predict in storylines, it removes all logical choice, moral and duty to a protagonist/villain, because if fate is dictating what they do etc, they aren't good or evil, they are just logical cog gears in the machine of the universe, lacking free will etc etc. If a person winds up in heaven or hell, its cause a omniscient deity -WANTED- them there, as that was their fate decided, which in itself defeats the purpose of heaven and hell and where Pete is standing at this very moment.

Think the comic saga The Watchman. Mr Manhatten ended up despising mankind, thinking they were the smallest thing in the universe, because he saw everything in the past, the present, and the future. He treated people like his father treated watches, logical parts to a logical machine that can't ever change, and there was no reason to him to even attempt to try changing them.

Then they start throwing this out the window. He doesn't know that the new Spectre is the daughter of the old one and the comedian. He doesn't know about everyone around him in relationships prior coming down with cancer and how. He keeps saying he knows "Everything" yet he doesn't act like he does, he thinks he's Omniscient, when he's not, he's the furthest thing from it. Then its found out that Ozzy, the most brilliant mind in existence, not only foreseen creation of Dr Manhatten, his exact powers, his exact abilities down to the last freaking period, his Omniscient abilities expand far beyond even the mind of Doctor Manhatten's. And -THEN-, given even Ozzy's ability to shape what was, what is, and what will be, couldn't have foreseen about Rorschach mailing his journal to a small rag paper, and undoing -EVERYTHING- he spent his life planning to do.

That's what I mean by "Reigning in" what the term "Omniscient" actually means. Dr. Manhatten thought he was, turns out he was wasn't. Ozzy thought he was, turns out he wasn't, because neither of them were nowhere near Omniscient. One was given a set of powers unimaginable by man, another had a intelligence so vast it boggled the mind. both of them thought that there was no free variables left in existence, when in the end, while both could guide fate, -NEITHER- of them could actually control it.

So if you are really going to make all the beings in heaven "Omniscient", please, oh please, reduce the scope of what it actually is, cause if you make it as literal as the word is, there's no point period in having a trial, cause like I said, if this is indeed the literal meaning, that also means that "Fate" is the literal meaning of the word, that there is no free choice existence, no free will, no free thought, no free emotions, they are all but cogs in a watch like Mr. Manhatten's.

Wed May 16, 2012 1:58 am

Dissension

Devil Skirrl

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:42 pmPosts: 8606Images: 0

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

I assure you Rick knows what the word "omniscient" means. Give the man some credit, please, and allow events to play out as they will.

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*rubs forhead* don't throw around the word Omniscient unless you are willing to sacrifice plot like corn to a starving pig. If you are dead set on moving forwards with it, drastically try to reign in the "Scope" of what the word means in the housepets universe, cause otherwise the story will end up going nowhere.

well, omniscient just means all knowing. If there are certain things that are unknowable in this universe, like the future or how someone will act maybe, then they don't know it. In that case, they only know everything that has already happened. any knowledge beyond that would be a bonus.for example, while writing in the "3rd person omniscient" point of view, I have no idea what's going to happen, so neither does the narration while it's being written. Therefore, I only know everything that has already happened, what will happen depends on how I make may characters act.

Aticston Wrote:

And if you only mean it as "See everything past to present" then you still are left with the giant flipping elephant in the room because -ALL- these supreme beings knew why Pete was in heaven and what he was doing, yet only Cerberus lifted a finger to do anything about it. They knew about the game, they knew about Pete abusing Joel, they knew -ALL- this stuff, and refused to lift a finger as Pete basically toyed with Joel like a chew toy.

I thin Heaven may have had more important things to do. It never said they're omnipotent, meaning their powers are limited and they may have been too busy with other things to help Joel or send more than one guard to stop Pete.

Aticston Wrote:

The other elephant in the room is that if they are omniscient and all knowing, why even bring up such a element as "Fate" for Joel? I personally do not believe in "Fate" in a personal sense, I find it the biggest self defeating aspect of human nature and understanding. Pr-destined reality is a terrible thing to even attempt to predict in storylines, it removes all logical choice, moral and duty to a protagonist/villain, because if fate is dictating what they do etc, they aren't good or evil, they are just logical cog gears in the machine of the universe, lacking free will etc etc. If a person winds up in heaven or hell, its cause a omniscient deity -WANTED- them there, as that was their fate decided, which in itself defeats the purpose of heaven and hell and where Pete is standing at this very moment.

pretty sure fate here is like a GPS's ETA. It can say when you'll get where you're going if you go the speed limit or maintain your current speed, but if you change speed or go over or under the speed limit, it wil change the ETA. Likewise, if you maintain acting the way past experience would say you'd act, you'll reach your current fate, but if you do things out of character, your fate will be different.

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Wed May 16, 2012 2:17 am

Aticston

Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:26 amPosts: 26

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

@RandomGeekNamedBrent:

I know what the word means. There is a difference between omniscient and omnipresent, one is the ability to know all knowledge before it existed, to know past, present and future. The other is that plus the ability to control all aspects of reality and shape at will.

Having in literature characters have either of those abilities, unless you are willing to "Change the rules" like in my watchman example of what those words mean, like I said, is the quickest way to destroy a story and any logical sense in it. They end up being boring, poorly written and hard to stomach.

@Dissension

I read the comic for 556 pages, comment free up until now, cause I thought the story was good. While not flawless, it was very entertaining, and its better written then 99.999% of comics I read on the net (You want trash, go read Las Linda's).

But when you enter in the term Omniscient to a list of character traits, this is flat out the quickest way to ruin a storyline. Unless you are using the word completely liberally and not literally, its the biggest and most giant cop out in storytelling, cause you stop telling a story as a list of events, you change a story into a list of facts. It makes for downright schlocky writing. It is, far and beyond, simply the laziest form of writing.

So I don't think personally I am that "Far out of line" when this is the first comic, out of the 557th read, I have a problem with how its written. Maybe if I spent every comic page endlessly whining about little things, then yeah, I think I am just being a nice person who is looking too much into a comic, but given this is the first major complaint about it, I don't see how I am being mean etc.

And before you say I am being mean to Rick cause I am calling it lazy writing, unfortunately, yes, it is lazy writing. Unless you are going to completely change the terms of what the word means like in my watchman example, its the quickest and fastest way to write your story off a cliff.

If you think I am taking this personally, I am anything but, I am trying to offer literary advice, and at that, good advice in my view. all powerful characters make boring stories, I can't even think of a single example where this has been proven wrong.

Take Superman, he's the single most boring DC comic hero in existence. Even Batman said it "Clark, you were far more interesting when you were dead". Or take The Flash. He was an interesting character, then they went way out of control with his powers, now what was a exciting character, has turned like Superman into one of the most boring ones. If you are unwilling to reign in the scope of a characters abilities, you destroy them as a literary device into just flat out boring.

I know what the word means. There is a difference between omniscient and omnipresent, one is the ability to know all knowledge before it existed, to know past, present and future. The other is that plus the ability to control all aspects of reality and shape at will.

small correction: omnipresent means being everywhere at once. omnipotent means all powerful and is closest to what you used.

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Wed May 16, 2012 2:49 am

Dissension

Devil Skirrl

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:42 pmPosts: 8606Images: 0

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Nobody said anything about you being either "mean" or "out of line." I merely asked you to trust Rick. Give the man a chance to tell his story. If you do not like the direction it takes, by all means, say so, but at least allow the story to unfold before denouncing it.

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Wed May 16, 2012 2:53 am

Aticston

Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:26 amPosts: 26

Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Dissension Wrote:

Nobody said anything about you being either "mean" or "out of line." I merely asked you to trust Rick. Give the man a chance to tell his story. If you do not like the direction it takes, by all means, say so, but at least allow the story to unfold before denouncing it.

Ah, I see me commenting now, instead of later, is plugging the dam before the crack gets too wide. Its still good sound advice regardless.

I know what omniscient means. It is a joke. A joke that is not going to arrest the sequence of events in the story for the exact reason that I made the joke. I even put the reason that I would not have it arrest events of the story in the punchline of the joke.

It is why I said they're "technically" omniscient. In the framing of their roles, there is no reason that they should not be, but I overlook it because being less-than-omniscient makes more sense when you have multiple parties interacting and having personalities. So while they should be "technically" omniscient, for the purposes of the story, we are going to ignore that.

That is the joke.

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