With this announcement, we are mostly but not all done with the planned 5,000 job eliminations by June 2010.

Strangely, Ms. Brummel have asked folks to avoid emailing each other today because the last layoff's email volume was so distracting. Gee, sorry to be a bother while people are trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Let's see... how to avoid that... I know, tell people what the hell is going on and which people / groups are affected. Oy.

Please, if affected by today's events, note which group you're in and any messaging about things going forward (as appropriate and proper).

(And please, Ms. Brummel, if you talk to the troops about this, don't share how people affected by the layoff are thanking you - that just seems creepy.)

In late January we announced plans to eliminate up to 5,000 jobs at Microsoft. Today’s announcement is part of that ongoing process. As managers this certainly presents challenges for you and your organizations, whether you are experiencing the eliminations directly or indirectly. As I did in January, I ask you to support your colleagues, peers, and leadership teams as we work through the steps necessary to get jobs, people, and projects aligned in the company.

I want to emphasize the importance of your role as managers today. We have asked leaders across the company to minimize the amount of e-mail sent today, as employees told us the e-mail volume in January was distracting. As a result, leaders have agreed to streamline their e-mail communications. Outside the US, we ask that you defer to communications by local leaders and not send or forward U.S. announcements to international teammates. Rather than sending e-mail, we encourage you to meet with your employees face-to-face or via Live Meeting, where possible, to address their questions.

To help you do this, we have provided resources for you on HRWeb. One learning we took from January’s announcement is that managers who reviewed the materials found them to be useful and effective and had a more positive experience than those who did not. I strongly encourage you to review this and to ask others to do the same.

Sad days for many employee's and sure Bill must be amazed to see how the beast has fallen. Time for Steve to hang up his xbox joystick and look for something more suitable, maybe mc donalds are hiring?

"We are eliminating some positions today as part of this company-wide effort to closely manage costs. Some employees in MSIT will learn their jobs are being eliminated throughout the day. While most of the job eliminations we are announcing today are in the U.S., we will be eliminating jobs outside of the country, and we will work in accordance with specific country procedures and in compliance with their legal requirements when doing so. For employees outside the U.S., local leadership teams will be providing information about the local process and potential impact on area teams, if any."

How are we done with the layoffs when most/some/49% of the original 1400 got other jobs inside MS? Didn't we just reshuffle the furniture? Does this mean today's annoucement will be for 3600 or maybe even more? Why is Ballmer being cagy about specifics this time?

I'm just kind of ashamed of myself for having trusted Microsoft in the past.Lots of us have done similar mistake. In my opinion Microsoft is worst in some cases. For last couple of months I have seen many people were fired within 10 minutes notice. I think they could handle this situation in a better way. Now people will not trust Microsoft as they did before. And it will be harder for Microsoft to attract talent in the future.

Looks like WW EPG (sales, marketing and technical sales) is going to be hit hard this time as we emerged relatively unscathed last time around. To be honest, this isn't a surprise as we have a lot of dead weight in EPG.

Have received mails from MSUS President, WW EPG VP and WW Communications Sector (my group)'s VP indicating that our groups were affected. Would expect notifications to start coming in after 9am pacific time.

None in my team either. Good Lordy this is freaky. I feel like I'm in the Matrix with bullets wizzing above me.

Perhaps off topic and the responses may be worse, but I see lots of ideas and potential out there that Microsoft will never go after now. This could be a great time to go after some of them. I'd love to find some investors that would like to take a chance and do what Microsoft won't. At least I won't fire me.

To the poster of this comment - it sums up all that Microsoft has become. Many folks joined years ago - not for the money - but for the cause, the opportunity to change the world. Money cannot buy that commitment and dedication. But you always expect to fight the cause together, not leaving your mates on the battlefield.

Unfortunately we have allowed the inbred DNA of muppets like SteveB, Lisa Brummel and Kevin Turner to replace that which held us firm, which galvanised us. Now it is just a money thing, and littered with self-serving idiots - you've become just like every other company. Microsoft will always be relevant, but in a late kinda way. No innovation, no leadership. Too bad really.

If you are affected by today's cuts - good strength to you. It may seem like the end of the world, but eventually when it stops spinning, you'll see it is not so bad. Just don't take it personally, and if you get called in - please, please don't just resign to avoid giving them pleasure - take the package! (and everything else you can without getting caught).

"layoffs are just an eyewash to make markets happy, internally you will be hired again .. this is crap and waste of time and energy .. stop this"This isn't true. While there are no official numbers on how many of the 1400 were rehired, annecdotal reports across the company have the total at something like 10% or less.

some highlights of ballmer's tenure at the helm of microsoft. under his leadership we executed poorly and lost ie share to firefox, the company missed the explosion of personal media players, msft made several strategic mistakes diminishing the value of windows client for 7 years -between xp and win7-, several major division have not been and are not profitable, no one saw search coming, we didn't notice the importance of virtualization until someone else had massive market share; and the list goes on. we don't even need to talk about the stock price, which in perspective makes total sense. so, board of directors, microsoft senior leadership, bill: when is steveb getting the well deserved boot?

Good luck to my friends and former coworkers in WW EPG. I hope for my former teammates sake that a particularly awful McManager gets the axe today -- one that would be incapable of motivating a skydiver to open his parachute.

I'm gonna miss you guys, but I'll be doing it from a place close to the beach in FL!

If my experience is any consolation to those affected, I left MS in 2003 and my experience since has been fantastic. I mean it when I say I would never consider going back. Keep your head up and see this as the opportunity that it is.

If my experience is any consolation to those affected, I left MS in 2003 and my experience since has been fantastic.I would second this. I quit last August and have never been happier. Yes I have a co-pay on each Dr. visit and prescription now, but the fact that I look forward to going to work each day and I'm back in an environment similiar to the one at MS 12 yrs ago makes it more than worth it.

1) People who got laid off thanked Lisa Brummel? I think she worded this wrong. They thanked her for what? A) I dont have to put up with you? or B)Thanks for cutting me, so that I can't make my mortgage payment on time?

2) I don't completely disagree with LisaBrumel on point 2. If you are a manager and a good one. You should notify employees , good employees ahead of the time, explain to them what the severance packing looks like, what are the benefits, what are the resources and support out there, what are their options. I think these are all compeltely approriate.

3) To those of you who got cut : don't be distraught. Keep on working hard to find a new position, things will turn around if you really have the skills.

4) I just kind of wish people who deserve to be cut (bad managers who do nothing but cause trouble) would be cut.

"How are we done with the layoffs when most/some/49% of the original 1400 got other jobs inside MS? Didn't we just reshuffle the furniture?"

Wow, nothing like a little more salt in the wounds. According to this, I may be the sole member of the 1400 who wasn't rehired, or perhaps merely in the untalented 51% group this offers up. Definitely hoping that something opens your eyes to some reality. Postings show all kinds of people who don't know anyone affected in the 1400, and then total b.s. about how, whoever they were, everyone was promptly rehired anyway, so no biggie. I was not rehired, despite multiple applications and interviews, I have not heard a single peep out of HR since March 23, and I have only had phone interviews and a few in-person meetings on the outside. Several contract opps at HALF my formerly hourly rate, but that's it. I do have one actual interview scheduled in the next few weeks. Not one job offer, not one real opportunity, nothing. So if it's only me out here, and everyone else landed on their feet, I guess I feel even worse. I don't think that I am the only one leftover from the 1400, and I hope that those getting cut today will have better luck than I am having. Likely over a hundred well thought-out applications for supposedly real jobs out here, and most companies don't even answer. The continued arrogance of a few posters is the only thing that makes me wonder if it's a good thing to be kicked out. It's not your job to make me feel good about losing my employment, but you don't need to keep up the drivel about how everyone worth anything got picked up in a heartbeat.

Let's not forget that only the folks let go in the mothership (Redmond) are in a position to be able to find other jobs. What happens to ppl in New York and other smaller office? Its usually the end of the road at MSFT for them.

Zune untouched as far as I can tell. Rumors from multiple sources say upper mgmt is happy with us.The people who are being cut today are just victims of loss generated from zune,msn and live search teams.

Zune untouched as far as I can tell. Rumors from multiple sources say upper mgmt is happy with us.No offense to the Zune rank and file, but from where I sit, the Zune upper mgt should be UNhappy with THEMSELVES. I'm having a difficult time seeing the Zune strategy thus far as successful, and question the wisdom of not applying cuts there.

To those who did not receive a mail from Lisa, don't freak out. This mail was to managers specifically and the fact that you did not receive it is probably due to the fact that you are not on the Manager DL

I believe that the intent of this blog to improve MS from within will never meet its goal. Simple reason is that the number of people who actually cares about Microsoft at all have been giving up and leaving in droves and will continue to do so even after the recession dust settles down.

Take time to read the recent WWWSMM memos, you will know that our so called "leaders" are dead worried about the onslaught from our competitors. They should be, because in the past it was not so much how Microsoft supposedly beat out competition, but rather how our competitors faltered from within.

Mark my words, Microsoft is going to get beaten by her non-PC competitors in time. No wonder MS is pushing out Win7 out the door as fast as they can. Can you imagine that Firefox was mentioned as a threat, when we had all but won in the past? This is a reset for Microsoft to say the least.

WRT Zune: my son loves his, it is exactly what he wanted. Me, I'd rather get an iPhone. Make no mistake, Zune is a very good product, even taking into account the date fiasco. Unfortunately for MS and the Zune team, most customers are like me, they would just rather have an iPod or iPhone. In the absence of those competing products, Zune would probably be a megahit. And that is probably an unfortunate metaphor for a lot of Microsoft products, good stuff but people would prefer the competitor.

The big question, going forward, is can Microsoft remake itself, and restructure itself, such that it can create the highly desired products in the future? What are the main sources of internal friction that are so self-defeating? I mean, really, we have so many many many many skilled engineers you'd think that even the existence of supposed bottom 10%ers couldn't stop this juggernaut. We have the engineers, why can't we succeed?

An Indian contracting company approached me for a contract position at a 50% lower wage.

Even worse, this firm continues to pursue a friend with a deep tech, journalist and web background for contacts at Walmart wages - $10/hour.

Hopefully an upcoming bill in the Senate will eliminate H-1B and L-1 visa fraud and abuse. The current laws make it legal to fire US citizens and GC holders and retain L-1 (intracompany transfers) and H-1b visa holders.

I think we are overpaid. Unfortunately HR is still going by their outdated belief that reduction in salary is a big demotivator. I say cut everyone's salary by 10% before starting with the next set of job cuts. Your lifestyle will change little, especially if you are in Redmond given that the relative competition for services will decrease by a commensurate measure.

Not quite sure how Wall Street would react but really who knows and who cares?

An Indian contracting company approached me for a contract position at a 50% lower wage.

Even worse, this firm continues to pursue a friend with a deep tech, journalist and web background for contacts at Walmart wages - $10/hour.

Hopefully an upcoming bill in the Senate will eliminate H-1B and L-1 visa fraud and abuse. The bill will change current laws that legally allow employers to fire US citizens and GC holders and retain L-1 (intracompany transfers) and H-1b visa holders.

I think we are overpaid. Unfortunately HR is still going by their outdated belief that reduction in salary is a big demotivator. I say cut everyone's salary by 10% before starting with the next set of job cuts. Your lifestyle will change little, especially if you are in Redmond given that the relative competition for services will decrease by a commensurate measure.

Not quite sure how Wall Street would react but really who knows and who cares?You are nuts. If you are overpaid, please speak for yourself.

1.- You should ask for volunteers and open the cash bag. You should be surprised on how many people, with more than 10 years at the company, would accept being cut with a generous and surely well deserved compensation.

2.- Open the cash bag anyway in order to fill with real content that "pretty words" like: "our success at Microsoft has always been the direct result of the talent, hard work, and COMMITMENT of our people ...." Ok, totally agree. And that's the reason why MS management should have a totally different behaviour with affected employees than any other companies. Not too much employees ww have the real and strong comittment that most MS people have with their company. And you know that.

So, Microsoft, be smarter than anyother company with your people at these hard times. Our long time and sustained commitment is, and has been your real fuel.

And I'm afraid that now it just means money.You don't have to... We know. But that's the difference you should make.

It's unfortunate but when they kept announcing at company meetings how many people we had hired and hooraying about it that's when I started worrying. You should get excited when your products win not when you hire a bunch of people. It was a big ugly display of cash. I want MSFT to win but we need the leadership to help us hone in on our strategic objectives. We can't win in everything. I'm sorry for those of you who lost their jobs today...good luck.

"I would agree on the point of taking salary cuts across board rather than eliminating jobs. Most of these positions would again need to be filled a few months down the line."

I'll be the first to admit, a salary cut would hit me hard. I would also be the first to admit that's my own fault for over extending myself, and if taking a reasonable paycut (under 10%) meant that good solid workers who this company needs could keep their jobs, I'd find a way to make it work.

However, the reason they probably won't do this is that if you start cutting, brilliant people who think they aren't getting paid what they're worth will go somewhere that does pay them what they think they're worth. Microsoft is likely afraid to lose talent with a cut across the board. They're losing it this way, too, but at least they control who they lose (to a degree) in a layoff.

It's a bad situation, and yes, a lot of it has come from Microsoft being too bloated and not planning enough. Reactive business strategies, too many levels of management (I've been on management bloated teams and streamlined teams with fewer levels of management, and I can tell you which one was more effective from where I was standing), and a tendancy to run in every direction at once, it's all brought MS to this. It's sad, really. You could have been great, MS. Sigh.

I made the original comment about how many of the 1400 were actually laid off. I don't have any real data other than the handfull (less than 5 people) who were laid off all got other jobs in the company. Nobody likes layoffs, but as a shareholder if we're going to cross the layoff bridge then we need to actually do it, not just put on a smoke and mirrors show for wall street. For those laid off (today or Jan), I don't mean to belittle your last few months. Good luck in the search and remember: The recession will end.

The cash bag idea won't work. The top talent sees MS for what it is worth. They are the most likely to be able to land another job and if you give them an incentive to quit, they will. Then you'll be left with the people who realized that MS is as good as it gets and will do everything possible to stay.

If you were cut from MS, I'm deeply sorry for the change you have to undertake. But it will be a good change. Have you ever heard the expression "The infant boy is not aware, he has been eaten by the bear"? Well, that's MS.

I want to tell you the following story, and I want you all to understand that if this can happen to me, it can happen to anyone. Even you:

I too, was part of the original 1400, but unlike so many of my peers, my access to corpnet was yanked, by badge confiscated, and I was not allowed to see internal job postings. Why? Because my boss thought that since I was heads down on a tech push, I should get a 10% contribution ranking. Despite my review being stellar, and despite being the center of the technology for my product (and doing a great job under difficult conditions), and despite my boss and my peers talking to upper management on my behalf, I was unable to get a *single interview*. And was told, almost flat out, that I would never work at MS again. All because of one number that didn't mean what my boss (or i) thought it meant. So when MS flushes someone with 17 years of experience despite the strong and active protests of his boss and his peers, you have to wonder if they're running on all cylinders.

Since then I've been treated with derision by almost everyone associated with MS. In one case, a team wanted me to work with them. They talked with their recruiter, I kept emailing the recruiter, but I got no response. For weeks. I must have sent 10 polite emails. I even sent one saying "if you're not allowed to talk with me, at least tell me you're not allowed to talk with me." I got nothing. When my ex boss went to talk with her to see why she wasn't putting me in the loop, she said I was rude. (!!)

If that's where you want to work, more power to you. But there are better places out there.

So we're all on a blog with the stated mission of reducing the size of Microsoft, yet you're all saying "I'd gladly take a 10% pay cut if it means no more job cuts"...

Talk about mixed messages! Either you want to reduce the size of Microsoft or you don't. And hint: if you don't, you're wrong.

Layoffs in this case are bad for the individuals but good for the future of our company. I am sad for the people out of work in this economy, but that doesn't mean I'm going to all of a sudden start singing a different tune just because someone actually did what we've all been screaming about for the last 10 years.

Sweating it out today. We've been informed there will be cuts in our department. They've set up a conf room for the whole day with the blinds drawn. I assume this is the death chamber. Everyone's walking around exchanging gallows humor and watching their inboxes. I just got a meeting invite -- for something else, it turned out -- but I almost jumped out of my chair! I'll be glad when this f'ing day is over.

In this market nobody's hiring. While 10% is probably not sufficient reason to switch employers, of course I recognize it may be the proverbial last straw for someone out there. If someone feels so pissed with the salary cut and wishes to move, so be it.

Let's do a fair comparison here, of the two "push" factors that would cause you to leave Microsoft.1. a 10% cut to your base salary2. the prospect of being laid off for no fault of yoursWhich do you think is worse? Assume you are a star performer.

Honestly, these "layoffs" are really resource actions , those affected are going to be called up when the mill starts up again.

If M$ is really serious about cutting then you'll need to see whole divisions getting axed but the current strategy is to ride out the recession by relying on cash flow from Windows/Office and hope no one ( Wall Street ) notices the lack of strategic execution in lieu of some headcount reductions and a few more headfakes towards Yahoo...

MSFT needs a proper balance of people and vision to succeed. Lay-offs suck, but they become necessary when management doesn't do their job for too long, and worse, when the executives responsible for the vision of their department go too long without accountability and consequences to their failures.

This company is too big for everyone to blame Mr. Ballmer for bad execution and poor vision. He's not Mr. Gates, that's for sure, but I feel that managers are just as responsible for keeping their teams clear on the vision, the purpose, and the benefit of their work.

Lay-offs are amputating the leg because no one would deal with the infected toe nail, and without improvement, the company is in real trouble.

Not everyone was rehired. I was picked up by another company, but I know several colleagues who were not and are still looking for a place to land.

While it is true that there are opportunities outside of Microsoft, many are lower pay and lower benefits. The market is very competitive, hiring managers (in and out of MS) are very slow to respond even when they are interested.

To those leaving today:1. Take advantage of the DBM career center. It provides a good opportunity for networking and support

2. Take time off now. Starting your job search today or tomorrow is not going to increase your odds of being hired. If you go into a job interview depressed/stressed/tired, you won't do your best.

3. When interviewing, do your best. No matter how hard the question, keep swinging. Always ask for feedback at the end.

This company is too big for everyone to blame Mr. Ballmer for bad execution and poor vision. He's not Mr. GatesUmm , if Mr. Ballmer can't be blamed as the CEO for the poor execution of his organization, who can?

"I too, was part of the original 1400, but unlike so many of my peers, my access to corpnet was yanked, by badge confiscated, and I was not allowed to see internal job postings. Why? Because my boss thought that since I was heads down on a tech push, I should get a 10% contribution ranking. Despite my review being stellar, and despite being the center of the technology for my product (and doing a great job under difficult conditions), and despite my boss and my peers talking to upper management on my behalf, I was unable to get a *single interview*. And was told, almost flat out, that I would never work at MS again. All because of one number that didn't mean what my boss (or i) thought it meant. So when MS flushes someone with 17 years of experience despite the strong and active protests of his boss and his peers, you have to wonder if they're running on all cylinders."

This story doesn't add-up even as you've told it -- too many different people giving you the same message, from the boss who put you in the 10% to the totally unrelated person who said you were rude.

Since you like to quote old sayings, here's one for you:

"If one person tells you that you have a tail you can ignore it; if two people tell you, turn around and take a look."Translation: maybe your shit actually *does* stink.

"Layoffs in this case are bad for the individuals but good for the future of our company."

What would have been good for the future of the company is not overly bloating things, investing in a ton of things that Microsoft just sucks at, and making the RIGHT cuts in layoffs. And it's too late to fix the first two.

Dump the bottom 10% performers? I can get that. It makes some sense. I don't like layoffs. They ruin lives. But at least this is something that people can agree on. I have the conflict of conscience that bottom 10% are going to have a hard time finding new jobs, but I also recognize that from a business perspective, they'd be reasonable cuts to make.

Dump mid to high performers because of their age, use of benefits, or because a manager just doesn't like them? Those are not the cuts that anyone should be standing behind.

While I understand Microsoft's bottom line is important, some of these people are what helps make that bottom line. The least they can do is make the right layoff choices, not layoffs that feel random and spiteful in many cases.

"I just got the meeting request from my manager. Rather than just accept, I suggested an alternate time--next December 23rd. Let's see if he has a sense of humor."Wow I needed that laugh today...good luck!

"I am for zero population growth through contraception / family planning.

I am not for zero population growth via genocide.

Comprende?"

Oh, I comprende: you want the right thing to happen only if it means no change to the status quo.

That's the wrong attitude and won't get us anywhere... and in fact, shows just how soft and out-of-touch the company is. "OMG we need to improve! Why isn't the company taking steps!!???" followed almost immediately by "OMG YOU'RE ACTUALLY TAKING STEPS STOP IT'S UNCOMFORTABLE! I AM FAT AND LAZY AND I DIDN'T REALLY MEAN WHAT I SAID I DON'T LIKE CHANGE STOP STOP STOP!"

Why does a company with $$ billions in the coffers need to lay ANYONE off? Come on. We made a bunch of money when the going was good so that we would be prepared for days like today. You can' thave profits ALL THE TIME. This is about big Shareholders creating pressure for more profits at all costs (aka, greed).

"It's unfortunate but when they kept announcing at company meetings how many people we had hired and hooraying about it that's when I started worrying. You should get excited when your products win not when you hire a bunch of people. It was a big ugly display of cash."

Leadership has had a decade long party at shareholder's expense. Now the party is over, and management is throwing employees overboard like chaff hoping to take shareholder focus off themselves.

Layoffs aren't great. I'm sorry for those of you losing your jobs as part of this.

1) If staff is bloated in an area, it will continue to suck profits from the company. That area needs to be trimmed and the work eliminated or made to be more efficient. A 10% pay cut won't solve the problem. Just getting the balance sheet in line for one day doesn't fix the core issue. I'm sure for those who lose their jobs they'd rather keep them at a 10% loss, but the machine doesn't work that way.

2) If we have so many engineers why can't we win? With engineers you'll develop a product, but that doesn't guarantee a successful product. Microsoft needs to focus on the customer experience. That doesn't mean hiring more experience designers than engineers - it means streamlining the decision making process to allow experience issues to have greater weight than they do today. Just because you have a great feature in a product and people like it, doesn't mean it's the best thing for the overall experience. Customer experience is about looking at the whole and not the parts and not having the development team make all the calls. No, I'm not on an experience team.

That assumes that Microsoft's management is capable of correctly identifying the bottom 10% of performers. That is hard to do properly at any large company, including Microsoft.

Much more common is that some good people are laid off accidentally, followed by the strongest people realizing they have good options elsewhere and leaving on their own initiative to escape the turmoil.

The end result is that the weakest and most political are all that remain.

msft layoffs didn’t even make it to the cover of WSJ. non-relevant solution, aimed to resolve a deeper and different problem, for a company that lacks of strategic direction. i need to see mr ballmer out soon, or both my fairness and justice definitions won’t work anymore.

"Shut up. A hell of a lot of good it will do us when things finally turn around in 2011, but we're in debt up to our armpits because no one out there is hiring."You're in debt up to your armpits because your lifestyle was unsustainable and you were greedy and rapacious during the boom times.

Hopefully you've learned your lesson and won't make the same mistakes next time.

10:07:We never should have grown the way we did and you are correct in pointing out the original purpose of mini.

Unfortunately we are in a hard place now. We better have a reasonable plan of "unwinding" that involves something more than (seemingly) random layoffs. We have had a 10% attrition level historically and now we are down to zero. Market salaries in the industry have fallen and being out of sync with the market is one more reason nobody is going to quit. Let's follow the market down. (please don't argue that the "best will quit" - by that reasoning we should have paid ourselves 10% more in years past because otherwise the "best would quit")

That is only part of the solution. I agree that realignment of plans is necessary and this might result in whole teams being cut, and I also see the need to cut underperformers. It is the random layoffs that get my goat. And as long at the whole process seems as secretive as it is I can only feel that the layoffs are indeed random.

Update 10:11 a.m.: The Washington state Employee Security Department said they do not expect any new layoff notices to come from Microsoft. Company officials have declined to say how many layoffs would take place locally.

Sheryl Hutchison, the department's communications director, said she received an e-mail from a Microsoft executive this morning saying there would be no new Working Adjustment and Retraining Notices. State law requires companies with more than 100 employees to notify affected workers 60 days before closures and layoffs.

"There is no change in Washington," Hutchison said by phone. "Whatever is being announced today is not announced today is not addressing the state."

When January's cuts were made, Microsoft filed a WARN notice for 872 positions, and recently filed a notice in April saying it was eliminating two positions.

For the "cut 10% salary" people, we've already taken a salary cut -- no merit raises this year. Sure, it's not 10% (unless you were going to hit the top 20% bucket this year), but when you compound it over the years it'll have about the same effect on the bottom line. And that's assuming that merit raises are only suspended for one year. If they suspend them for 2 or more, it just gets even worse.

"This is about big Shareholders creating pressure for more profits at all costs (aka, greed)."

No. This is about a management team that has been failing in big and small ways for a decade, and some employees who were stupid enough to believe that a 70% stock drop, the inability to succeed at anything new, and declining competitiveness in the cash cows had no consequences. Well guess what, they do. As you're starting to learn.

"You're in debt up to your armpits because your lifestyle was unsustainable and you were greedy and rapacious during the boom times.

Hopefully you've learned your lesson and won't make the same mistakes next time."

This isn't true for many. I was in the 1,400, and if I can't find work by the summer of 2010 -- and who knows with the way things look right now and the sheer numbers of people out pounding the pavement -- I'm going to be in trouble. This is despite selling my house, having a 12-month emergency fund and carrying zero balances (for now anyway) on my credit cards.

Over and over I have seen upper management making terrible decisions for the user, and only putting their tail between their legs when someone like Bill G says he had to revert his daughters computer to XP because vista didn't support her apps.

Know what the lead PM did? Responded with excuses as to WHY the apps didn't work.

Customers don't want to hear excuses. When your biggest selling point has always been compatibility, and you remove that, you are an idiot.

Should we be more secure? Yes, but not at the expense of compatibility. Security isn't our selling feature. Compatibility is.

When will they get it?

Also, to those getting let go I would RUN with the severance. It doesn't look like much is happening in windows, what with Win7 about to wrap up. I would be sad if I was let go, but I would still take the money and run. This place has been dying for a while.

But quality didn't go down in the major money makers until they started outsourcing everything. Way to go.. yippee...

We are a bloated company, but we really need to get people to focus on being worker bees and less managers. Everyone wants to sit at the top and make decisions, but no one wants to just do the work.

We're having marketing trouble because our products don't appeal to people. We just haven't targeted consumers because we believe that enterprises give us the real bucks. In actuality, those enterprise workers don't want to use our products anymore at home and they complain about it at the workplace.

Next step: selling Win7!? If you want to sell it, sell it at a 50% discount for the first 3 months, get people to pre-order for a discount, start showing it off in stores now! It's a great product but it will have a crappy advertisement campaign.

I still can't understand the phone thing. We've been making WinMo phones for years, now. There has been no push for advancement in the interface until the iPhone. We staggered to accommodate enterprises, not people.

It's time executive management and shareholders step back and start looking at themselves for these huge mistakes and allow the drones to be drones again. These cuts would be warranted if we were the problem, but it seems the hot shots up top don't see themselves as layoff-worthy. Take one for the team, Steve.

Good luck everyone! I hope everyone who is cut gets a better paying job that provides you with more satisfaction than this place.

Bottom line, Ballmer has failed. He needs to go away, and take that slimy f*ck Kevin Turner with him. I'm sure KT will land on his feet selling used cars somewhere.

Then take their two salaries and repurpose the money, you could probably avoid laying off at least a few dozen people with their bloated incomes. Perhaps keep some engineers that actually do REAL WORK.

MS could have offered voluntary redundancy from a limited set of employees, it would at least allow them to feel had some control. And it would leave those who remain in better spirts, knowing MSFT at least wants to try.

>>>Postings show all kinds of people who don't know anyone affected in the 1400, and then total b.s. about how, whoever they were, everyone was promptly rehired anyway, so no biggie. I was not rehired, despite multiple applications and interviews

there were plenty of good folks i met at BDM in your position. in fact I worked for 18 years at msft and while i was going through the interviewing process for 3 positions were put on hold the last second. this had nothing to do with being good or bad, i just had bad luck :-(

"You're in debt up to your armpits because your lifestyle was unsustainable and you were greedy and rapacious during the boom times.

Hopefully you've learned your lesson and won't make the same mistakes next time."

This isn't true for many. I was in the 1,400, and if I can't find work by the summer of 2010 -- and who knows with the way things look right now and the sheer numbers of people out pounding the pavement -- I'm going to be in trouble. This is despite selling my house, having a 12-month emergency fund and carrying zero balances (for now anyway) on my credit cards.

Dude, if you can't find work in a year and a half either you're stone cold unemployable or life as we know it is going to change dramatically for everyone.

"We're having marketing trouble because our products don't appeal to people. We just haven't targeted consumers because we believe that enterprises give us the real bucks. In actuality, those enterprise workers don't want to use our products anymore at home and they complain about it at the workplace."

True, but how on earth can you make this a marketing problem? I agree its a problem for marketing to market the crap being built by the product teams having no insight at all on what end customers actually want, responding to painpoints they dont know - but that is a product and customer engagement problem, not a marketing problem.

As a person who got laid off in the first round and managed to get onsite interviews with 8 different companies with 8th time hitting success. Here is my advice if you got laid off and are looking outside MSFT:

1. Work on your resume immediately and put it on Monster & Dice2. Go to the DBM career center and sign up. They had multiple job fairs and I got the job through one of them. It also gives you a morale boost seeing so many people in similar situation.3. Stay positive and brush up your skills. If you are a dev or test, a good tech interview site to start with is www.careercup.com4. The best job site to apply for jobs is www.simplyhired.com which pulls jobs from all major job sites. You can also look at www.indeed.com and don't forget to look at craigslist jobs section5. Use linkedin for networking, they also have job section. One other thing you can do is do a people(recruiter) search and contact them.6. One other thing I did was googled for all the companies around seattle and applied for every relavent position

For some of you it might be easy and for some of you it might be difficult. Don't give up and fight with all you got. Hiring standards have gone up because of so many people looking for jobs but keep your brain active and believe in yourself. Remember you have to earn it and nobody is going to gift it you out of sympathy. It is going to be an emotional roller coaster but stay strong and you will gain a lot from this experience.Best of luck!!

When I started 13 years ago I could jump from myself (entry level) to BillG in the GAL in about 4-5 steps. The last time I tried I got tired of counting and was afraid Vista might crash from having so many windows open.Windows Mobile has become such a management nightmare its ridiculous. Even when they reshuffle management they just shift or demote the ineffective, moronic managers, leave all the layers in place, and bring in new faces to make the same mistakes (but with their own 'unique' stamp).

If they did not give 60 days notice, the liability is that they would simply have to pay up to 60 days anyway, so it's a moot point.One of my friend was terminated under performance management program. He was not given any notice or severance.

Customer experience is about looking at the whole and not the parts and not having the development team make all the calls. ..Things would likely be a lot better if the development teams were allowed to make all (or any) of the calls. As-is, the user experience calls are being made by our PM teams. None of our PMs have any claim to expertise in product/UX design. They haven't even taken classes or read books about it.

Talked with my dad about how so many that got fired got re-hired. Thought it didn't make much sense. But then he explained how it is easier to fire an entire group than just the 5-10% that are underperforming in that group. By rehiring you get most of your top talent back (because they can always get a job here) and lose the lower portion that MS intended to cut in the first place.

"I agree its a problem for marketing to market the crap being built by the product teams having no insight at all on what end customers actually want, responding to painpoints they dont know - but that is a product and customer engagement problem, not a marketing problem."

Windows Mobile has become such a management nightmare its ridiculous. Even when they reshuffle management they just shift or demote the ineffective, moronic managers, leave all the layers in place, and bring in new faces to make the same mistakes (but with their own 'unique' stamp).In fact, Andy Lees is nothing but another Yusuf Mehdi or Orlando Ayala whom have been handpicked by SteveB under mysterious circumstances and survived by merely being superexcited - Mehdi got Googled, Orlando cocked up our runrate business in SMS&P and Lees, yeah - he cocked up S&T and now he is messing up MCB.

A blind (Lees) is leading the blind (MCB mgmt) and theyre being guided by a blind supervisor (Ballmer). Bah! And now - Ballmer has identified KT as his successor. Wow. We are impressed.

I think company needs to hear that Bill Gates is back. That gives the company the boost and energy to perform better. This 5000 lay offs does not help on the cost much but I guess MS has to do it to keep wall street happy.

Yes, it is a "moot point" see here http://www.doleta.gov/programs/factsht/warn.htm

"An employer who violates the WARN provisions by ordering a plant closing or mass layoff without providing appropriate notice is liable to each aggrieved employee for an amount including back pay and benefits for the period of violation, up to 60 days."

So by giving the 60 days to all people as part of the severence package, they avoid a WARN reporting issue.

As for the friend that was terminated immediately with no severence, then he must have been discharged "for cause". WARN gives people warning/cushion related to redundancy, not firings.

@10:55"that is a product and customer engagement problem, not a marketing problem."

My blame was not directed at the marketing group, but at the choices that we've made to change our public image. I only know one or 2 people who actually like Microsoft, everyone else puts up with them like everyone deals with insurance. We're a necessary evil to most people.

We can't change people's view of us, at this point, because we've grown money-hungry and inflated the company size. In my 3 years at Microsoft, we've increased populus by almost 30k people?

It's not a marketing problem, per se, it's a management problem that has fallen into the PR bucket.

Anonymous @9:52am, I'm with ya, buddy. I had a very similar experience post January 22 myself in spite of being in high demand just 4 months earlier. I had received a couple poach attempt inquiries from other teams in Fall 2008 even though I had also been saddled with the 10% albatross for political reasons that didn't matter to the people in the company who got real work done, who'd worked with me.

Before either of these reached the stage of a request for a formal interview, The Great Freeze of Fall 2008 (October, was it?) affected both of those roles.

I believe I was cut due to a combination of the 10%, my manager's (he's a GM) hatred of me, and his knowledge that I was done tolerating with his BS and would surely be finding something else internally and leaving his team soon anyway. He knew he needed X drones and a few managers to get the department's work done, knew that his product division was affected by the freeze and position refills were not being approved when people left. He probably saw dumping me (productive but smart enough to be wanting and able to get an internal transfer away from him) as a way to get rid of someone he didn't like in a way that also let him satisfy his target for number of cuts. In ordinary times, I'd have been safe, but since the timing coincided with that of large scale layoffs, I wasn't.

In the year prior to that, another 7-8 opportunities had come to me through the grapevine from colleagues who wanted someone like me on their teams. None of which I could pursue past informationals because this dysfunctional GM disallowed interviews for made-up performance reasons. Until September, I was usually a 20% bucket person and never a 10%, but once the forwarded interview requests let him know I wanted to leave, hello 10% that would help keep me in his paws. The team was in slavery mode and had a reputation that kept other strong contributors from joining it when roles became open, so at all costs, he wanted to keep me around. By mid 2008, he was instructed to let go of his grip on me after I'd raised this issue high enough in the company for the request to gain traction. Until then, he knew that he likely had me for the duration because of significant golden handcuffs that held me at MS.

After January 22, I had several inquiries. They were both from managers who contacted me on their own and from positions recommended for me by friends who knew of openings either personally or by searching corpnet on my behalf, since I had not kept corpnet access. In all 3 cases, the emails with the managers were positive, then stopped for several weeks, then resumed with, "We've decided to go in a different direction." It seemed kind of coincidental that the response was so similar in all 3 cases.

And yes, I lost the golden handcuffs on March 23 anyway after the 60 days passed with no internal transfer.

My advice to the next 3000: Don't accept that it's the package or nothing. Talk to an attorney and you may discover that you have leverage to negotiate the non-negotiable take it or leave it agreement. Will better terms be forthcoming? I don't know. Having been in a technical sales role in another company, though, I understand that if you don't even ask, you'll rarely get, and sometimes when you ask, you DO get. Keep it professional though. If you don't think you can do that, you'll only be torching bridges.

I just wish there was a bottom 20% for 3 years auto fire policy...Do a little research, despite MS's slavish devotion to it, it has been shown repeatedly that stack ranking systems don't work. They are political games, and have a demoralizing impact on the vast majority of employees who, despite the "rock star" myth, do the majority of the work. You put an auto fire policy in place and your going to have seriously f'd up and politics. I think you need to go back to your dad and have him explain a few more things to you.

I just wish there was a bottom 20% for 3 years auto fire policy...and the reply

Do a little research, despite MS's slavish devotion to it, it has been shown repeatedly that stack ranking systems don't work.Ask Novell how theirs worked out for them in the long term. When I was there in the 1980's, they had automatic cuts of the bottom 10% or some number for at least a couple years. Anyone remember what the number was? Since I was never in it, it's not clear in my memory.

It will be really useful if people can share some information about the layoff instead of arguing with each other or talking about things that you cannot change. If you can change, go and do it, instead of just talking about it!

"I think company needs to hear that Bill Gates is back. That gives the company the boost and energy to perform better. This 5000 lay offs does not help on the cost much but I guess MS has to do it to keep wall street happy."

The same Bill Gates whose fingers were all over the Longhorn failure? Puhlease. The company needs new leadership and a new direction. Preferably someone younger with some insight into the internet generation. Cutting costs while maintaining the same leaders and stategy will only lead to more layoffs down the road.

I think it's sad that we have to use this site to get information about what is going on. Come on Lisa; transparency builds trust.

Times are hard, we get that. Layoffs are needed, we get that.

Tell us what is going on. Tell us how the decissions are being made. If you tell the truth, after the shock, nobody will be upset, but all this cloak-n-dagger, all these whispers, consiparicies, it's grating on nerves and productivity.

I know on the first round people that people were cut with what seemed no logic: Good performers, bad performers (or so it seemed). Is there a secret formula? From what I know on the first round, affected peoples' managers did not know, nor their managers' managers. It makes it seem arbitrary. How is fat being cut when there is no logic, and direct people connected to the employee have no say in the process.

Also, why two (or more) waves? If there is a reason for this, tell us! If it's believable, we'll swallow it. If there is no reason, or you hide behind not saying anything, have you any idea what this is doing for morale and productivity? Honestly, do you?

Even if you don't put any tangible value to the lives (and family) lives of your employees who are wandering around in the fog praying that the axe does not fall, think of the value to the shareholders the lack or productivity, or the super stars you risk losing who might prefer to jump ship to an employer who is more transparent.

Microsoft is clearly betting on the Online Services business. While MSN and Search have struggled to get it right, it doesn't mean it's the wrong place to invest.

I recently joined MSN, along with a number of senior, talented folks from across Microsoft. It's clear that the intent is to do more and do it better. MSN isn't pretending that its track record is stellar. Just the opposite, in fact.

To be viable, and competitive, in our world in the future, we're going to have to succeed in the online services space.

Windows got us here. Online Services is the future. I completely agree with the investment strategy and direction.

Microsoft is clearly betting on the Online Services business. While MSN and Search have struggled to get it right, it doesn't mean it's the wrong place to invest....

-- Why do we always have to invest in something that others are proving to be worth investing..we are always behind in the race, atleast for the last 6-8 years...Why can't we show a new area where others would be interested and we lead...

"Also, why two (or more) waves? If there is a reason for this, tell us! If it's believable, we'll swallow it. If there is no reason, or you hide behind not saying anything, have you any idea what this is doing for morale and productivity?"

Why must you know why? Try to look at the positives in these bad news. If Microsoft is going to eliminate 5000 (or more) positions, it's in your advantage to have them spread out so that:

1. If you're not chosen to leave now, you have some time to try to improve to lessen the chance that you're chosen later. (Also realize that living in uncertainty is an acceptable tradeoff to losing income.)

2. If you're chosen to leave now, then you have fewer employees to compete against for the scarce jobs out there because they're not all flooding at once.

There's worse things in life than knowing the motives of those above. Deal with it. If you're still employed, count your blessings, and stop bitching.

To be viable, and competitive, in our world in the future, we're going to have to succeed in the online services space.

Windows got us here. Online Services is the future. I completely agree with the investment strategy and direction.I fully agree. It is sad people don't get the economics of Web 2.0, which represent a paradigm shift unlike any other in history.

Although revenue streams have not been figured out yet (monetization models are being worked on as we speak) the perspective of catering to 500 million broke teenagers is simply too big to pass.

And what about the bloated world of Mich and CMG? he TV ads - shamefull. Buzz for Win7..really? And what about the hulk of MS Studios...make it a placement center - lots of space and it's soundproof...

I was part of the 1,400 - seemed to be no rhyme or reason for who got the axe (I spoke with many others, including higher deciding level managers). Closest thing I could find was salary-to-value ratio - and I'm not sure about that.

Of the many I spoke with, one thing was obvious. When you are interested in jumping back in (here or anywhere), do it quickly, decisively and completely... spend 8+ hours a day, undistracted, submitting, writing, calling, linking. Use all the job sites, visit DBM, do everthing it takes and then follow up.

When you aren't doing something specific, brush up on latest technologies. It's amazing what a couple of hours does to refreshing your mind - getting ready for the next interview.

One thing... don't let the "OMG - I'm devestated" thing take you. I was fortunate, but others I spoke with tooks weeks to months to get up enough courage to reapply. And interviewers are mostly interviewing for happy, go-get'em people! Be that, at least for an hour or four. Smile.

Also, the interviews, groups and poeple VARY DRAMATICALLY. For me, I had a horrible one followed immediately by a phonominal one that got me hired again. Don't let that affect you either.

The only real thing worth taking from an interview is knowing what to brush up for next time.

In this market it's partly a law of large numbers - submit your resume, submit your ego, repeat. It will pan out on the 'nth' time... just try to let that 'nth' time be sooner than later.

To the poster at 9:52 AM Positions that were laid off in January ARE being refilled, or attempted to be. I can understand if there really isn't a need for a position and the person in that position is laid off and the position is eliminated. But I have seen those same positions re-opened as soon as the 60 day window expired. This points out just how stupid the manner that the lays are being managed is. Each group is allowed to set the criteria. There is no standard, this is not performance based (the position noted above was a good performer). If there was a company policy that during times of a lay off, the position is being eliminated and the group CANNOT hire a contractor at 50% pay or reopen the position for at least 1 year, I would feel like there really was a need for the lay off. The way the current, and the January lay offs are being implemented just shows that there are games being played.

Does anybody else think its bullshit that Microsoft doesn't pay out stock awards? At least give us a pro-rated vesting on the shares we would get.

I earned a big award as part of last year's performance review process and now that they are separating from me (I'm not separating for them) its like I didn't even earn the award because the vesting doesn't begin until August.

For people who were good performer and got eliminated, you might be wondering what's the reason for the lay-off.

If the layoff is not a business adjustment, then it may be:. Did you get divorced?. Did you have trouble with the law, even you were not convicted?. Did you have medical condition?. Did you take prescription pain killer?

Microsoft HR has tools to get these information on you. If some of the issues apply to you, be alert.

Are we doing this for the street? What gives, for the economy to turn around we need to show the way. In times like these, if Microsoft can't be a leader, then we're just another heartless corporation.Sure we need to be responsible, but to whom?

"When you aren't doing something specific, brush up on latest technologies. It's amazing what a couple of hours does to refreshing your mind - getting ready for the next interview."

It's also a good idea to brush up on the basics. If you're interviewing for a development position, keep in mind that a lot of questions revolve around basic concepts. Do you remember how to do a depth-first search vs. a breadth-first search? Can you recognize and utilize recursion effectively? (you'd be surprised how many people suck at recursion) Can you quickly recognize and break down problems into their components? An interview question I like to use can be simplified into an easy graph-traversal problem, but it's not presented that way and if you can't simplify it you're going to struggle.

If you can't demonstrate that you have an inherent understanding of fundamentals and can solve problems using that, it doesn't matter if you know the latest whiz-bang technology that's buzzing about the blogosphere at the moment. That can be learned on the job. Fundamentals can't.

Disclaimer

These are sole individual personal points-of-view and the posts and comments by the participants in no way represent the official point-of-view of Microsoft or any other organization. This is a discussion to foster debate and by no means an enactment of policy-violation. These posts are provided "as-is" with no warranties and confer no rights. So chill. And think.