http://blogs.wsj.com..." The Virginia bill doesn't ban abortions, but it would make certain kinds of contraceptives illegal. If the Roe decision were eventually overturned, this measure would also make abortion illegal immediately."that and that I live in oklahoma, and having my rights stripped away is not something I enjoy....going to canada the home of the truly free.

Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave

At 2/17/2012 3:40:46 AM, lovelife wrote:One of the scariest parts of the whole thing.

http://blogs.wsj.com..." The Virginia bill doesn't ban abortions, but it would make certain kinds of contraceptives illegal. If the Roe decision were eventually overturned, this measure would also make abortion illegal immediately."that and that I live in oklahoma, and having my rights stripped away is not something I enjoy....going to canada the home of the truly free.

tho the facepalm-iest moment

Nash said the measure is ultimately aimed at banning abortion, contraception and infertility treatments, the Sun noted.

Proponents deny that banning contraceptives is part of the agenda.

Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave

Yea it is scary isn't it. In the old days human life was more than science except for a few cultures who killed all Non persons. Those who hold that human life is not a tumor or an illness would make abortion illegal, just like theft, rape, trespass, and slavery. It is truly scary that humans can be legally killed, and yes I include the death penalty.

It's pretty clear from the original news story that no one outside of the blogosphere thinks there is contraception ban in the bill. This started in the Republican debate when, out of the blue, when Stephanopulis asked Romney if he supported a ban on contraception. Romney, nor anyone else, has suggested such a thing. It's an Obama campaign tactic to make up false claims to draw attention away from the economy, foreign policy, and every other real issue.

How about getting the press to ask Obama if he would support a ban on the public display of religious symbols (like crosses)? Then bloggers could search the 100,000s of pages of government regulations and proposed legislation to find things that can be interpreted to support it. See, an instant campaign issue! All it takes is an unethical press and an eager blogosphere.

Now, since the non-story on contraception is a story, the liberal press has a license ask every Republican four times a day if they support a ban on contraception. need to worry about Iran, jobs, or energy with such a great fake story to talk about.

At 2/17/2012 3:40:46 AM, lovelife wrote:One of the scariest parts of the whole thing.

http://blogs.wsj.com..." The Virginia bill doesn't ban abortions, but it would make certain kinds of contraceptives illegal. If the Roe decision were eventually overturned, this measure would also make abortion illegal immediately."that and that I live in oklahoma, and having my rights stripped away is not something I enjoy....going to canada the home of the truly free.

At 2/17/2012 7:46:48 AM, logicrules wrote:Yea it is scary isn't it. In the old days human life was more than science...

Yes those good old days where leaving a newborn on the side of the road was considered an acceptable method of birth control.

So, killing it before it leaves the womb is better somehow?

Well, yes, but that wasn't the point I was making. I was trying to point out that his "good old days" nonsense was just that. Incidentally, it is science that created the current fight. Prior to our modern understanding of biology, the fetus wasn't considered alive until the "quickening," typically around 15-17 weeks. So, yes, in the old days (meaning pre 1880s in the U.S.) abortion was illegal but only well into the second trimester. You can thank science for allowing us to fight over the first trimester now too.

At 2/17/2012 3:40:46 AM, lovelife wrote:One of the scariest parts of the whole thing.

http://blogs.wsj.com..." The Virginia bill doesn't ban abortions, but it would make certain kinds of contraceptives illegal. If the Roe decision were eventually overturned, this measure would also make abortion illegal immediately."that and that I live in oklahoma, and having my rights stripped away is not something I enjoy....going to canada the home of the truly free.

1) yes women not having the right to choose when and whether to reproduce is a scary thing, even if it was just abortion.2) I'm abused and woukdnt want that for all the unwanted kids3) pregnancy, especially childbirth is physically harmful to me because of pre existing conditions.4) oklahoma is an extremely anti woman state, and yes if you count personhood at conception you favor a ban on most forms of bc, its the natural progression if we don't stand for human, reproductive rights.

Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave

At 2/17/2012 9:18:28 AM, RoyLatham wrote:It's pretty clear from the original news story that no one outside of the blogosphere thinks there is contraception ban in the bill. This started in the Republican debate when, out of the blue, when Stephanopulis asked Romney if he supported a ban on contraception. Romney, nor anyone else, has suggested such a thing. It's an Obama campaign tactic to make up false claims to draw attention away from the economy, foreign policy, and every other real issue.

How about getting the press to ask Obama if he would support a ban on the public display of religious symbols (like crosses)? Then bloggers could search the 100,000s of pages of government regulations and proposed legislation to find things that can be interpreted to support it. See, an instant campaign issue! All it takes is an unethical press and an eager blogosphere.

Now, since the non-story on contraception is a story, the liberal press has a license ask every Republican four times a day if they support a ban on contraception. need to worry about Iran, jobs, or energy with such a great fake story to talk about.

Sorry, but you're wrong. If you support a Personhood bill, you support a ban on hormonal birth control pills. If a person is considered a person from the moment of conception, hormonal birth control pills will be effectively illegal because hormonal birth control pills may allow conception, but disallow the implantation of the fertilized egg. If it disallows the implantation of a fertilized egg (PERSON), it is aborting a person. It is an abortion. It will be illegal. Just because republicans are too stupid to understand the way birth control works (among other biologically related things, as you well know) and, consequently, the legal implications of their own policies, doesn't mean that this loophole would not or could not be taken advantage of.

The liberal blogosphere is absolutely right to fear this and criticize it. Republicans are ok'ing a bill which, would not only effectively make hormonal birth control illegal, but prescribes state sanctioned rape by doctors for all women who are seeking an abortion. By that I am referring to the fact that any woman seeking an abortion from a doctor would be legally required to undergo a transvaginal ultrasound- a medically unnecessary procedure wherein two long instruments are stuck up the woman's vagina in an effort to foster guilt and humiliation. Guilt before an abortion- which studies show time and time again does nothing to stop women from having abortions unless they are prolife to begin with. Women would simply be forced into having instruments stuck up inside them for no real reason whatsoever which, last I checked, is the very definition of the word "rape."

There is no science in here. Just ignorance of hormonal birth control, ignorance of what the word "rape" means, and appeals to emotion by efforts to guilt women into not having a legal medical procedure.

I can't see how you can accept this absolute insanity, Roy. There is nothing medically necessary, scientific, or logical about this bill WHATSOEVER. And the fact that these dumb republicans don't understand what their own bill means should be all the more shocking and concerning.Also, the fact that there ARE republicans who explicitly are against birth control(i.e. Rick San-shitstorm) should be a red flag to anyone who is not. There IS a loophole here and there ARE crazy fvckers who would be more than willing to take advantage of it.

: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.

At 2/17/2012 8:09:21 AM, OberHerr wrote:I find that fact that you think murdering an unborn baby being illegal scary, is scary.

Keyword = "unborn"

Killing an unborn fetus is just as scary as destroying an unbuilt house.

A house does not have human DNA, heartbeat, or brainwaves at 8-9 weeks.

Why should these be valued?

A house never has a potential to be a fully grown functional human being, a fetus does.

A fetus never *becomes* life, rather, it transitions into it. It goes from potentiality to actuality via change of things other than time. With this in mind, every single person, and every single sex cell has potential to become life.

Have you noticed that if I grabbed a rock and hit a baby people care, yet I grab a medical spoon and yank a fetus out no one cares? Wtf America... Wtf

There's a difference between a child and a fetus. Let's be intelligent here: what makes someone valued in society? If it is just humanity, then I am basically holding up a massive sign saying "fVck you aliens!". Let's look outside of ourselves for a moment, and look at what is important. There is a difference between a moral human being and a genetic human being.

Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

At 2/17/2012 7:46:48 AM, logicrules wrote:Yea it is scary isn't it. In the old days human life was more than science except for a few cultures who killed all Non persons. Those who hold that human life is not a tumor or an illness would make abortion illegal, just like theft, rape, trespass, and slavery. It is truly scary that humans can be legally killed, and yes I include the death penalty.

At 2/17/2012 2:34:14 PM, lovelife wrote:A house also is not leeching of a person and making them risk financial, emotional, physical damage, and even death.

Mortgage?

Potential damages? Not to mention taxes. Houses cost a lot more than a baby, especially if you put it up for adoption.

You used the word baby when you should have used the word fetus.

A fetus is leeching off a person, making them risk financial (obviously), emotional (postpartum depression, pregnancy from rape, etc.), physical damage (almost endless list of health concerns associated with pregnancy up to and including..), and even death.

Prenatal care is typically something around 2000 dollars. Given that the fetus is carried to term, obviously, costs multiply by the thousands. Especially if this is a family that wants their child to go to college.

Though I don't see why this analogy is the focal point of this thread in the slightest.

: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.

Abortion denies the right to live to something that would have previously lived naturally on its own.

A fetus is not a part of a "woman's body", it is its own life that will eventually be its own person.

At the very least it is a combination of two people, the father and mother but in all honesty a fetus is a new piece of genetic material that is in no way a part of a woman.

If abortion is legal then infanticide should also be legal.

The wise have eyes in their heads, while the fool walks in the darkness; but I came to realizethat the same fate overtakes them both.
Then I said to myself,
"The fate of the fool will overtake me also.
What then do I gain by being wise?"
I said to myself, "This too is meaningless."
For the wise, like the fool, will not be long remembered;
the days have already come when both have been forgotten.
Like the fool, the wise too must die! - Ecclesiastes 2:14-16

Abortion denies the right to live to something that would have previously lived naturally on its own.

A fetus is not a part of a "woman's body", it is its own life that will eventually be its own person.

At the very least it is a combination of two people, the father and mother but in all honesty a fetus is a new piece of genetic material that is in no way a part of a woman.

If abortion is legal then infanticide should also be legal.

Would have lived naturally on it's own, eh?

You know what's natural? Reproductive freedom.

: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.

Abortion denies the right to live to something that would have previously lived naturally on its own.

A fetus is not a part of a "woman's body", it is its own life that will eventually be its own person.

At the very least it is a combination of two people, the father and mother but in all honesty a fetus is a new piece of genetic material that is in no way a part of a woman.

If abortion is legal then infanticide should also be legal.

Would have lived naturally on it's own, eh?

You know what's natural? Reproductive freedom.

Well people's tendency to murder could be natural too if we allowed it.

The wise have eyes in their heads, while the fool walks in the darkness; but I came to realizethat the same fate overtakes them both.
Then I said to myself,
"The fate of the fool will overtake me also.
What then do I gain by being wise?"
I said to myself, "This too is meaningless."
For the wise, like the fool, will not be long remembered;
the days have already come when both have been forgotten.
Like the fool, the wise too must die! - Ecclesiastes 2:14-16