This is a discussion on Random Card Generator Thingy within the online poker forums, in the General Poker section; OK so, these sites with the decks that are always shuffling (I'm guessing Bodog is one as well); Does this mean that we can stop

Random Card Generator Thingy

OK so, these sites with the decks that are always shuffling (I'm guessing Bodog is one as well); Does this mean that we can stop seeing the flop and thinking "I shoulda' played", being that the milisecond we clicked fold was different than the milisecond we click call/raise? In real life, once you've folded you shouldn't care anymore anyway, but most people still see what would've been their board. But in online play it really would not have been your board unless everyone clicked the buttons all at the same times and the planets lined up just right... right?

And, when you, or someone else is thinking about folding/calling/raising, it is changing the board for everyone else still in the hand? Granted it's fair since it changes for everyone equally, but this is the case... right?

It can be either way, depending on the implementation. It is true that they use action data from users to create random "seeds', but that doesn't necessarily mean that they will use this data on each street when drawing cards.

For example, I have written my own simulation software and I use the random "seeds" to shuffle the deck. Once the deck is shuffled, I just pull the cards in sequential order. It is a simpler implementation than the alternative and I suspect that this is the norm.

The reason for collecting user action data is to introduce TRUE randomness so that someone doesn't guess the sequence of "pseudo-random" numbers. Pseudo-random numbers is all a computer can generate. That means that after a while, these numbers repeat themselves. If someone cracks that sequence, they could use it to predict what cards will come. (This has happened at least once many years ago with a bad implementation.) The user actions are random, and they are used to make sure that there are no repeating sequences of numbers. It is, however, not necessary to apply this to each street. If you can shuffle the deck with "true" randomness, you can then just pull the cards sequentially.

So, most likely, the outcome of a hand is predetermined regardless of the actions of the players.

#3

October 24th, 2007, 7:11 AM

Owned 87 [8]

Poker at: Bodog

Game: Holdem

if it wasn't predetermined than it wouldn't be legal or down right legitimate it is just another out for people who believe that if they put there dwindling chip stack in to the pot with 8 2 off that they would have won but if they did call in the first place that flop would have never happened

#4

October 24th, 2007, 8:04 AM

Cheetah [825]

Online Poker at: Home

Game: Tic Tac Toe

re: Poker & Random Card Generator Thingy

Actually both implementations are equally legitimate. Here is the analogy:

The "pre-determined" approach, which is more likely simply because it is easier to program, is almost the same as what they do in casinos. The deck is shuffled, and then cards are drawn sequentially.

The other approach would be analogous to shuffling the remaining cards of the deck after each card is drawn.

In both cases, they are equally random. There is nothing intrinsically "pre-determined" about the first approach unless someone looked in the memory of the computer where the deck for that hand is stored.

In the first approach, the user actions are used to shuffle decks in future hands. So when you click your bet button, you may be affecting the shuffling of a deck for a future hand, not necessarily on your table.

Even in the second approach, it is likely that the user actions on your table (if used at all) probably affect future hands. So even in this case you are unlikely to affect the outcome of your hand.

In the end, what is important is that the cards come out randomly. But I can see how some people would feel better if they knew that their actions don't affect the outcome of the hand they are in.

#5

October 24th, 2007, 3:46 PM

K_Kahne_Fan [1,197]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: Hold-Em

Originally Posted by Cheetah

In the end, what is important is that the cards come out randomly. But I can see how some people would feel better if they knew that their actions don't affect the outcome of the hand they are in.

It's kind of strange but I would feel better about certain things both ways. If I fold, it would feel 'better' to know that the board would not have been mine if there was a constant shuffle. After the flop, it would kinda' suck to know that when you click your call/raise button you actually affect your own turn and river.

I guess a site wouldn't tell us how they operate as to keep to secrecy?

#6

October 24th, 2007, 3:52 PM

zachvac [7,832]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NL Hold 'em

They do tell, pokerstars and full tilt each do it one way, forget which is which. The bottom line is, it doesn't matter. If you don't know the cards, it doesn't matter whether the computer has determined them or not. No matter which way it is done, when you fold, what plays out is just an example of what could have played out. Unless you go back in time, you'll NEVER be in that exact situation again, so does it matter whether you would have won a million bucks had you called? The only thing feeling bad about not calling can do is make you chase more in the future, but that's based on you not wanting to see a bad result, not on the past. Before the flop comes, you know exactly what's going to come out. Assuming you don't have them, each card has a 1/50 chance of being the first on the flop, and you can figure out exactly how often you would make each hand in any situation. It's not a big secret. But until you see the cards, the probability is all you know, and it's all you can use. Hopefully you play enough hands so that you are virtually playing the same hands again and again. You may have been dealt 27o 200 times and I'm sure several times you flop 2 pair, as the odds dictate you should. But if you play 27o like that every hand, you will lose money after you've played it 200 times.

#7

October 24th, 2007, 5:25 PM

Cheetah [825]

Poker at: Home

Game: Tic Tac Toe

Some sites have rabbit-hunting feature. If they showed not only ONE possible development of the hand but MANY, it would illustrate the futility of kicking yourself when you fold your small pair on the flop and hit a set on the turn. Or 27o for that matter and improving to a FH.

#8

October 24th, 2007, 6:00 PM

Irexes [7,016]

Online Poker at: Stars

Game: MTTs & Ring

re: Poker & Random Card Generator Thingy

Tilt and Stars use a continuous shuffle, Party is a static deck once shuffled.

None of which matters in terms of randomness or deciding which hands to play of course.

I must admit that I prefer the continuous shuffle for peace of mind as it eliminates the "ooo if only I'd have made that marginal call I'd have doubled up" phenomenon.

#9

October 24th, 2007, 7:22 PM

K_Kahne_Fan [1,197]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: Hold-Em

Originally Posted by Irexes

I must admit that I prefer the continuous shuffle for peace of mind as it eliminates the "ooo if only I'd have made that marginal call I'd have doubled up" phenomenon.

That's how I feel about it as well. If you fold, it basically eliminates the "shoulda', woulda', coulda'" issue. Just like a slot; if you stand up and the person behind you hits, it really doesn't matter since you wouldn't have hit "spin" at the exact time they did. Kind of peace of mind.