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What I don't understand is why he's going on and on about it, when all I'm doing is stating what their front office has openly spoke about during their press conferences.

oop. another pad.

It's like a rite of passage around here I'd wager that about 16000 of Shockey's 18243 posts are from him arguing with Hatter about Eli and Romo. Another 1000 or so for drafts which leaves a little over 1200 posts for talking about everything else. _________________

What I don't understand is why he's going on and on about it, when all I'm doing is stating what their front office has openly spoke about during their press conferences.

oop. another pad.

It's like a rite of passage around here I'd wager that about 16000 of Shockey's 18243 posts are from him arguing with Hatter about Eli and Romo. Another 1000 or so for drafts which leaves a little over 1200 posts for talking about everything else.

Jerry and Stephen discuss the cap being relative to the draft decisions. Jerry Jones also discusses that teams are going to draft offensive lineman earlier in the draft because of cap implications.

He's saying that because of the new rookie wage scale, it no longer costs a ton of money to sign high draft picks and that teams can move up for players they want easier; you can also invest a high first on a guard without paying Top 5 LT money to him. When he talks around 18m about getting mileage from your early draft picks, he's saying you want to take a starter and get the most out of him early so you know when that 3rd or 4th year comes up whether you're going to be paying him or not. He also talks around 20m mark about how they're going to be playing their rookies b/c they're cheaper than veterans even on a vet min deal typically.

Now, after listening to Jones speak about the offensive lineman being taken earlier than where they would normally be selected due to cap implications discussed in the pre-draft conference, the Cowboys selected center with their 31st overall pick. This pick being a controversial trade as several media argued the value of the trade being of better value to San Fran based on trade value charts that Jerry Jones proudly admits to inventing. Still not sure why they call that value chart Jimmy Johnson’s, according to Jerry is should have Jerry World printed on the header.

Aside from the trade that Stephen Jones can’t seem to recall who initiated, Jerry said that they were ready to select Frederick at 18 after their dream players of interior lineman were taken earlier in the draft. (Frame time 17:40) this being after Stephen Jones stated that they had other players rated higher on their board than where Frederick was rated. (Frame time 11:45) It was clear that interior lineman was a need but more importantly it was a cap friendly position that Jerry Jones targeted as a must have. Personally, I’d be thankful that you picked Frederick at 31 because if for some crazy reason another team drafted him earlier, Jerry would still be trading the 18th pick, much like he did a few years back when he decided to go all Special Olympic class of ’09. Anyway I’m getting sidetracked moving along.

Cowboys targeted 3 players and only 3 players at 18 - Warmack, Cooper and Vacarro. They were committed to taking OL first or 2nd round b/c of discussions with Romo during contract negotiations and a commitment they made to him to get him a better OL. When those 3 players were gone, the Scouts wanted to take BPA (Floyd) but the Coaches (Rod and Kiffin) said they didn't want him b/c he wasn't a fit for their scheme and was purely a 1-T who provided no inside pass rush that they felt they needed in a 1st round DT.

The salary cap, at no point, ever came into play in that decision and how you can infer that from the video above is beyond my ability to understand. They targeted OL b/c of need, not cap.

How can I say this with certainty? Source - Each draft position is slotted with an amount they can spend on it (regardless of position) and each team has a total rookie wage pool they can spend from. Now you can spend under that max amount on the wage scale, but that's typically rare since the first round pick is the most valued of the picks. Look at David Decastro ($1.4m cap hit in 2012, 4yrs 7.8m total) compared to Whitney Mercilus who went a couple picks later ($1.38m cap hit in 2012, 4yrs 7.6m total). You're case is that a G was the pick b/c it's cheaper but this proves that to be false.

You also suggest that Frederick would have been the pick at 18 which is blatantly false. The Cowboys were targeting Pugh at 31 and had Frederick graded right below him which is why they took him at 31 after NYG took Pugh at 19. They weren't willing to spend the 18th pick on either Pugh or Frederick.

In fact, Jerry says in the conversation you linked above (after being pressed a few times) that had they been unable to trade down, they would have taken Floyd at 18 purely b/c of BPA.

Day 2 talks, again they discuss the hope of having one of the top tier guards fall to them but it didn't work out so they called San Fran to draft Frederick at 31, where they knew he would be there at the bottom of the first round.

I don't dispute this at all - they were targeting OL or S b/c of need and all 3 were gone at 18 which is why they dropped down to add a 3rd and still get a player they liked.

Stephan answers a question from the media about how trading down affected the team financially in terms of the rookie pool. His answer was that it slightly increased the rookie pool but that adding a rookie that’s going to make the 53 is a big plus in terms of the salary cap. It keeps them from having to sign a veteran at a higher price.

That matches with what I said above, but doesn't meet what you were stating earlier which is that we dropped down and took OL over DT at 18 b/c of the cap implications. We fully intended (and even tried) to go up and get Warmack or Cooper which would have cost us more money since they would have been Top 10-15 picks.

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Frame time: 24:20

Jerry said that Webb was great value on the board and will be a great value cap wise as they look ahead. He touched on the importance of having rookies on the roster because of the new CBA agreement. Talks about impact on cap, impact on cap two three years down the road, impact on game day rosters, oh and btw can he cover…jokingly

He's talking about Webb replacing Scandrick in a year or two and again refers to the total cap but not the impact of having a lower pick for cost savings.

I'll leave you with this last point. The 18th pick in 2012 cost about $1.5m first year cap while the 31st pick in 2012 cost about $1.2m - that $300k is miniscule in difference when you're working with 5-10m in cap. To try to claim that we targeted OL b/c of the cap or that we moved from 18 to 31 b/c of the cap is misguided and I hope I've made a case that explains why._________________

Why does that matter who I am? I don't speak on guys who I haven't watched a good deal on and Im usually pretty good at ranking guys who I have watched. Just giving my input, but I guess a forum isn't the right place for that? _________________
^Stone85 on the sig^

Why does that matter who I am? I don't speak on guys who I haven't watched a good deal on and Im usually pretty good at ranking guys who I have watched. Just giving my input, but I guess a forum isn't the right place for that?

Have to agree with STH - prior to Star's health concern and the combine, Floyd was a late first round pick (15-30) - he flew up the boards of many mockers simply b/c they considered him the best DT with Star's fall. I don't think anything changed and he was still a solid prospect but not some magnificent steal.

I was surprised that both the Cowboys and the Giants passed on him at the time - I understand why the Boys did but still not sure I understand the Giants reasoning as it's hard to imagine they had Pugh higher than Floyd on their board. Seems like both chose to go for need over value, despite what some might claim._________________

Why does that matter who I am? I don't speak on guys who I haven't watched a good deal on and Im usually pretty good at ranking guys who I have watched. Just giving my input, but I guess a forum isn't the right place for that?

Have to agree with STH - prior to Star's health concern and the combine, Floyd was a late first round pick (15-30) - he flew up the boards of many mockers simply b/c they considered him the best DT with Star's fall. I don't think anything changed and he was still a solid prospect but not some magnificent steal.

I was surprised that both the Cowboys and the Giants passed on him at the time - I understand why the Boys did but still not sure I understand the Giants reasoning as it's hard to imagine they had Pugh higher than Floyd on their board. Seems like both chose to go for need over value, despite what some might claim.

I'd rather have anyone in the first and get Hankins in the 2nd than have taken Star in the 1st More value that route IMO._________________

He's saying that because of the new rookie wage scale, it no longer costs a ton of money to sign high draft picks and that teams can move up for players they want easier; you can also invest a high first on a guard without paying Top 5 LT money to him. When he talks around 18m about getting mileage from your early draft picks, he's saying you want to take a starter and get the most out of him early so you know when that 3rd or 4th year comes up whether you're going to be paying him or not. He also talks around 20m mark about how they're going to be playing their rookies b/c they're cheaper than veterans even on a vet min deal typically.

No, he isn't saying that at all, where did you get him talking about it being easier on the cap with the new rookie wage scale? Jerry was talking about the constraints of the new CBA biting him in the arse; Getting pinched for 10 million for maximizing the rules relative to the cap, that he would have liked a “looser” deal under the new CBA in regards to a high revenue team (Dallas). He talks about the challenges of the new system (CBA). That the young players are a must to be productive from the cap perspective alone.

He does talk about getting the most mileage out of his players early so that 48 months from now whether you’re going to be paying him or not. That it does in fact impact their decision making (referring to draft decisions). Why do you think he stated it that way? Why would he say that it would impact their decision making process 48 months from now as to whether they resigned a starter after his contract was expired? Could it be based on the salary cap, since he is directly relating this topic to the salary of a player 48 months from now? You said it yourself. “around 20m mark about how they’re going to be playing their rookies b/c they’re cheaper than veterans even on a vet min deal typically.”

Personally, I think Jerry has finally woken up a little and realized that you can’t be successful in this league without successful drafting and sound cap management rather than going to the well (free agency) every time you need a position to fill. Now it has yet to be seen, but for the sake of its fans at least he is talking about it.

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Cowboys targeted 3 players and only 3 players at 18 - Warmack, Cooper and Vacarro. They were committed to taking OL first or 2nd round b/c of discussions with Romo during contract negotiations and a commitment they made to him to get him a better OL. When those 3 players were gone, the Scouts wanted to take BPA (Floyd) but the Coaches (Rod and Kiffin) said they didn't want him b/c he wasn't a fit for their scheme and was purely a 1-T who provided no inside pass rush that they felt they needed in a 1st round DT.

The salary cap, at no point, ever came into play in that decision and how you can infer that from the video above is beyond my ability to understand. They targeted OL b/c of need, not cap.

First, how you can infer that from the video they aren’t discussing the cap is beyond my ability to understand. Really how many times do they have to say the word “cap” before you agree they are saying “cap”. One, Two, Three, Ten times?...yeah I can do that too, it really doesn’t help your argument though.

I didn’t hear about the third target in safety in their conferences but that’s all I’ve listened to so they may have been targeting him it really doesn’t matter, they could have had been targeting several players at 18, case in point teams should never target a player in the draft as in the end you’ll make irrational decisions to ensure that you get him or irrational decisions if you don’t. What I do know is that Jones talked about 2 interior linemen that they valued with the 18th pick; I can only assume it was Cooper and Warmack as they were the top rated guards in the draft. From what I gathered the scouts as well as head coach wanted BPA, presumably Floyd as most had him the fallen angel in first round and that it was Jerry Jones and Stephen Jones that wanted the last of the Mohicans, in Frederick and were willing to take him at 18 if a deal couldn’t get done. The scouts were pushing this player knowing exactly what system the Cowboys were running defensively, don’t you think that they had some pre- draft discussions about the “what ifs” should a player fall to them other than guard?

To answer your question, yes the salary cap for offensive lineman was discussed in the pre-draft conference. You know, where Jones is spilling the beans about teams valuing offensive lineman higher on the boards because of salary cap implications. Perhaps you missed Jerry saying, “That you forgo the idea of getting the big skill players early to get guys that will be doing the blocking for them. Which have typically been lesser guys relative to where they have been taken in the draft.” Somewhere is his muddled conferences related to this debate, he even list the premium positions: defensive lineman being one of them.

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How can I say this with certainty? Source - Each draft position is slotted with an amount they can spend on it (regardless of position) and each team has a total rookie wage pool they can spend from. Now you can spend under that max amount on the wage scale, but that's typically rare since the first round pick is the most valued of the picks. Look at David Decastro ($1.4m cap hit in 2012, 4yrs 7.8m total) compared to Whitney Mercilus who went a couple picks later ($1.38m cap hit in 2012, 4yrs 7.6m total). You're case is that a G was the pick b/c it's cheaper but this proves that to be false.

No, first it doesn’t prove to be false when you look at guaranteed money of those two examples. The guard you pulled up received 4.122 million of that 7.8 million dollar contract, while the linebacker you mentioned received 6.55 million dollars in guaranteed money on a 7.6 million dollar contract. The tackle above the guard, again 6.5 million dollars in guaranteed money. The rookie pool pays their first year salary not the length of their contract. Owners are still having to dig in their pockets to pay these guys money, is it cheaper than in years past? Sure it is its why the league opted for it aside from Jones who carries a high revenue team and would love nothing more than to spend millions of dollars on free agents. The problem is the cap hasn’t moved much in the last couple years. However, this isn’t what I said, what I said was that the average top 5 salaries for center and tight end are cheaper than some other premium positions.

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You also suggest that Frederick would have been the pick at 18 which is blatantly false. The Cowboys were targeting Pugh at 31 and had Frederick graded right below him which is why they took him at 31 after NYG took Pugh at 19. They weren't willing to spend the 18th pick on either Pugh or Frederick.

Do you have a link to where they were talking about taking him at 31? All I could find was they had discussions at taking him at 18 should they not of been able to move down.

“Had the Cowboys not traded out of the No. 18 pick, they might have selected Syracuse offensive lineman Justin Pugh, who was drafted by the New York Giants at No. 19.

“We thought a lot of Pugh,” Jones said. “Pugh’s a different player, more finesse. Strength was an issue.”

Pugh was regarded as an offensive tackle by some teams but the Cowboys had him categorized as a guard.”

Moving forward: Does Jones not say, “we (front office) wanted (Frederick) and were able to get him there rather than at 18” Is that not implying that Frederick was going to be their pick regardless if a trade transpired or not? It does to me.

Believe me I know Jerry Jones likes to talk but you speak as if you were in the war room with these guys.

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In fact, Jerry says in the conversation you linked above (after being pressed a few times) that had they been unable to trade down, they would have taken Floyd at 18 purely b/c of BPA.

Sorry man, I can’t listen to another commercial advertising the Cowboys golf resort or hear another word from Jones’ mouth or I may hurdle myself off a building, so rather than me doing that, have you got a link and frame time to that quote by Jerry Jones? Although, if what you say is true, that if a deal couldn’t have gotten done and based on what you say that the coaching staff said about Floyd, why draft him at all if he doesn’t fit the system?

Either you are pulling dingle berries and expecting me to accept them as facts; or Jerry Jones really is clueless, which is it?

Quote:

He's talking about Webb replacing Scandrick in a year or two and again refers to the total cap but not the impact of having a lower pick for cost savings.

He’s talking about the cap in relation to the draft. Which is my whole debate. I’m not saying that the salary cap struggles in Dallas is the only reason you drafted the players where you did. Absolutely, need played a factor as well.

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I'll leave you with this last point. The 18th pick in 2012 cost about $1.5m first year cap while the 31st pick in 2012 cost about $1.2m - that $300k is miniscule in difference when you're working with 5-10m in cap. To try to claim that we targeted OL b/c of the cap or that we moved from 18 to 31 b/c of the cap is misguided and I hope I've made a case that explains why.

And I shall leave you with this information kind sir, here are the details of both the 31st and 18th pick, both premium positions, both productive players at their respected position.

Which team do you think is paying more money? You keep talking about the one year salaries and you aren’t taking into consideration the length and the salary throughout the four years or any guaranteed money.

The thing of it all is that Dallas isn't the only team that considers the cap with every action they do in this organization. Its just that Jerry Jones talks about it as if its some kind of revelation. The CBA has been in place from some time now but in hearing Jones talk about it, it sounds like he is somewhat grasping the concept of being hard capped and the importance of making the right decisions in the draft because teams can't afford to break the bank in the free agent market and expect to win championships.

Why does that matter who I am? I don't speak on guys who I haven't watched a good deal on and Im usually pretty good at ranking guys who I have watched. Just giving my input, but I guess a forum isn't the right place for that?

Have to agree with STH - prior to Star's health concern and the combine, Floyd was a late first round pick (15-30) - he flew up the boards of many mockers simply b/c they considered him the best DT with Star's fall. I don't think anything changed and he was still a solid prospect but not some magnificent steal.

I was surprised that both the Cowboys and the Giants passed on him at the time - I understand why the Boys did but still not sure I understand the Giants reasoning as it's hard to imagine they had Pugh higher than Floyd on their board. Seems like both chose to go for need over value, despite what some might claim.

I'd rather have anyone in the first and get Hankins in the 2nd than have taken Star in the 1st More value that route IMO.

I'm still walking around with a smile on my face, Hankins was a great pick.

This tells me you don't understand defensive schemes and are just talking out your rear. But please go and define what a 3-tech does and why Floyd is the best one in the draft at 18 at doing that.

Time to Pwn MH again...it's been a while. With this comment it tells me you have absolutely no understanding of football and learn terms as you go on Google. I was very fortunate to play CB at a high level for an SEC football program so I think I have a pretty good understanding of "defensive schemes". First of all 3-technique is not a "defensive scheme" Under ordinary circumstances, I would end the debate right there because anyone who describes a technique as a "defensive scheme" has absolutely no idea what they speak of.

The technique is where a defensive lineman lines up not a scheme. A 3 technique has B gap responsibility on the outside shoulder of the weakside guard. The key to the position is getting penetration. Usually (not always) the player is around 6,2/3 and 300lbs (Sapp, Floyd, Suh-- although Suh plays a mean 5 tech). Anyone who has seen this kid play see he is more of a natural 3 tech. Don't let the low sack numbers fool you. He didn't play DT always in college having been used as a DE. The Lane Kiffin "Tampa 2" (pay attention MH that refers to a "defensive scheme" not a technique ) employ quick penetrating DTs. It also doesn't mean that a usual "3 tech type player" will always exclusively line up between the weakside guard and tackle, sometimes he may shade and play the 5 tech. But all of that may become too complicated for you so I won't get into it.

In terms of why he was the best 3tech in the draft the report and description in the link is consistent with what I see out of Floyd.

I hope that this brief simple lesson was useful in your understanding as to the distinction between a "defensive scheme" is versus technique and hopefully you can stop buying or continuing the spin by Jerry Jones and those who are parroting the company line. Everyone saw Garrett pissed that the guy everyone knew they were taken suddenly they didn't because Jerry Jones thinks he's smarter than everyone when it comes to football by shooting from the hip and selecting at best 3rd rounder and likely a 6th rounder in the 1st.

And by the way, don't think that I didn't notice you trying to justify the Freddy selection by linking him to Pugh as if both are remotely close to the same value all to try to justify that awful decision We all see through you. How'd my rear sound now? _________________

Desperado82 wrote:

I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.

I didn't state that a 3T was a scheme, but keep putting words in my mouth. My comment was regarding your claim that we should have taken him and the fact that you believe Floyd is a 3T is laughable which is why I quoted it for posterity.

The fact that you use WalterFootball to back up your claims is hilarious though. I think Rod and Monte may know a thing or two more about the "tampa 2" than you and when both go on record saying that Floyd isn't a 3T nor is he a fit for their scheme, I think it speaks for itself.

Keep using Wikipedia and Walterfootball - perhaps one day you'll actually post something of value._________________

I didn't state that a 3T was a scheme, but keep putting words in my mouth. My comment was regarding your claim that we should have taken him and the fact that you believe Floyd is a 3T is laughable which is why I quoted it for posterity.

The fact that you use WalterFootball to back up your claims is hilarious though. I think Rod and Monte may know a thing or two more about the "tampa 2" than you and when both go on record saying that Floyd isn't a 3T nor is he a fit for their scheme, I think it speaks for itself.

Keep using Wikipedia and Walterfootball - perhaps one day you'll actually post something of value.

Own your words. It's what you said and I was happy to provide the education. And if you read what I wrote I said that the scouting report described what I saw -- I figured I'd make it easy for you since searching the web is how you find your info rather than from real time football experience. Translation: I form my own opinion from watching games unlike you who doesn't but has to rely on Rod and Monte and others. Lastly, again, I did not see anywhere where Rod and Monte were specifically quoted as saying that Floyd could not play the 3 tech from what I've seen its bloggers and reporters speculating that they may have been the ones in Jerry's World who thought that and then people like you repeat it but I have not seen them specifically quoted. I can't imagine either would want to lose credibility as defensive coaches by going on record saying that since Floyd clearly is best suited as a 3 and a disruptive 3 tech is gold in a Tampa 2 (refresher, that's adefensive scheme) . And if they did specifically say it which I doubt, it simply would be a part of the party line not to make Jerruh appear stupid for making such a stupid selection there. For once put the kool-aid down and justacknowledge the truth. It does wonder for one's credibility. Your position now is as absurd as in the past when you tried to convince everyone that Romo was better than Eli or that Romo is clutch. _________________

Desperado82 wrote:

I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.