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All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement ....

As you continue to age and your body mechanics model becomes less reliable your training will lead you to another way and you may view ki in another light.

Then again, perhaps you will miss seeing or reject the gift and ki will remain a misleading delusion to you.

All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement ....

You should go start a new thread and explain, as body mechanics, what people are really talking about when they discuss or describe ki. Give some examples, extending ki, sinking ki, etc and then explain what's really happening, or supposed to be happening, for everyone. Heck, explain aiki while you're at it too.

All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement ....

I'm no fan of ki bunnies either. Nor am I a fan of things like the ribbon waving ki work. If people want to do that, more power to them. If it makes them happy, who am I to say otherwise?

But, in relation to Ueshiba -- er, no. The ki waving ribbons aren't what he was doing. Then again, just thinking it was "body mechanics", IMO, isn't right either.

To put it this way, look back to when Kano was putting together his Judo. All those men had been doing jujutsu of one sort or another. They knew body mechanics from standing to grappling. They knew timing, weight distribution and how to take advantage of it, and angles. Mochizuki, Tomiki, etc all were higher ranked dan grades and could hold their own, for the most part. Kano, himself, had seen a lot of people who were highly qualified martial artists.

So, through years and years of training, these people knew body mechanics in and out. They knew jujutsu. What happens when they meet Ueshiba? He isn't doing what they're doing. He tosses them like rag dolls. They can't throw him. Kano sees in Ueshiba what he has only seen very rarely and acknowledges it.

Now, jump over to kendo. Some very highly ranked people who have studied for a long time. They know how to move. They know timing. They know body mechanics. What happens when they meet Ueshiba? He isn't doing what they have seen and trained. He's doing something completely new to them. They want to learn his "taisbaki".

After so many, one should stop and take stock of things. Open the box and say, well, perhaps it wasn't just body mechanics. It certainly couldn't have been this "magical ki" stuff either because no one in that area can use it martially. We have hundreds of people who knew jujutsu, body mechanics, timing, angles, didn't care for "ki", but were not only awed by Ueshiba but they couldn't defeat him. He wasn't doing what they were familiar with.

So now, cut to the present. After 40 + years of people doing body mechanics to the nth degree, people doing "magical ki" work to the nth degree, people mixing those two, people studying other martial arts to add, etc, no one is still any nearer to the skill levels of the greats. Where does that leave us?

IMO:
1. Techniques and warm ups are missing a core component to them that Ueshiba did.
2. Body Mechanics, timing, angles, etc are necessary but there is still a missing component to reach Ueshiba's level.
3. The greats (Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, etc) all did very similar things, all talked about the secret of aiki, and all of them kept it very hidden. There is a training methodology for that "aiki" and it wasn't passed down through most aikido schools.

Anyone still think that if they work on techniques, body mechanics, timing, etc for another 40+ years, they'll eventually get as good as Ueshiba? Or how about taking those greats at their word and there really was a "secret of aiki" and a specific training methodology? One that Ueshiba never truly passed along...

All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement ....

Tony

In the 1950s I recall Kenshiro Abbe Sensei mention ``Ki`` just once when making a technique. I asked him what he meant by `Ki` , he replied " Not necessary speak of Ki, I teach it in my technique ".
He taught correct breathing whilst making a technique.
We had a senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido visit our dojo some years ago, he asked if he could demonstrate his Ki, non of his techniques worked, sadly for him he didn't bring a ``trained `` ukie with him.

In the 1950s I recall Kenshiro Abbe Sensei mention ``Ki`` just once when making a technique. I asked him what he meant by `Ki` , he replied " Not necessary speak of Ki, I teach it in my technique ".
He taught correct breathing whilst making a technique.
We had a senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido visit our dojo some years ago, he asked if he could demonstrate his Ki, non of his techniques worked, sadly for him he didn't bring a ``trained `` ukie with him.

The first time I came across the word "ki" was when I met people that purported to practice "traditional" "ki" aikido.... This was 5 or so years later into T/S aikido.... around 1980 when I had Shodan level.....
When practising with them I was easily able to throw them, but for some strange reason they were unable to throw me?
I was not resisting, just making good posture and moving with there movement.... I was told something similar to your experience which was you are being awkward and not going with anything...... I can't practice with you..... to me that was a cop out and excuse to their inability.....

So when people say things to me and cannot do what it is they are supposed to, it seems to me it is all in their minds and not in there bodies!!
I believe that people with high ability have discovered subtle use of those same mechanics which everyone possesses and have honed their skills to a level which can't be seen by those who have never practised beyond their "social club" level and "skill".....
I can see it, have practised it, its how we practice!! It has nothing to do with spirits, spooks, invisible magic power or otherwise.....
I practice as Tomiki Sensei taught, Hideo Oba Sensei taught, Mike Tracey 5th Dan, Brian Eustace 7th Dan, and Itsuo Haba 6th Dan and a few others I have met on the way...... taught.....That is rationally!!
The use of tegatana, correct and precise kata coupled with good centralised posture, also working against a resisting partners and players in equal measure........
I have used my skills with people who are much bigger, and physically stronger than myself, who have never practised aikido in their lives!! (self defence classes I have held in the past with no convenient uke!!)
I am easily able to produce results that are effective. (I add that I am responsible and I do not hurt people)
I achieve these results, without effort, without any mystical power, hocus pocus or otherwise.....
If people want to believe it is somehow there from somewhere else.... Well who am I to argue!! Keep on dreaming and enjoy their comfortable bubbles.... which may or may not pop one day.... then look out as it won't be nice!!!!!
I know it's all mumbo jumbo and nothing else!!!!
I apologise if that insults their sensitive sensibilities, but to be quite honestly I don't give a hoot as I am quite secure in my own knowledge, Ta very much.....
What's your feelings on this? Ha ha!! Need I ask!! As I know what you Derek, and your students are capable of...... and it aint no mystical clap trap.....

I'm no fan of ki bunnies either. Nor am I a fan of things like the ribbon waving ki work. If people want to do that, more power to them. If it makes them happy, who am I to say otherwise?

But, in relation to Ueshiba -- er, no. The ki waving ribbons aren't what he was doing. Then again, just thinking it was "body mechanics", IMO, isn't right either.

To put it this way, look back to when Kano was putting together his Judo. All those men had been doing jujutsu of one sort or another. They knew body mechanics from standing to grappling. They knew timing, weight distribution and how to take advantage of it, and angles. Mochizuki, Tomiki, etc all were higher ranked dan grades and could hold their own, for the most part. Kano, himself, had seen a lot of people who were highly qualified martial artists.

So, through years and years of training, these people knew body mechanics in and out. They knew jujutsu. What happens when they meet Ueshiba? He isn't doing what they're doing. He tosses them like rag dolls. They can't throw him. Kano sees in Ueshiba what he has only seen very rarely and acknowledges it.

Now, jump over to kendo. Some very highly ranked people who have studied for a long time. They know how to move. They know timing. They know body mechanics. What happens when they meet Ueshiba? He isn't doing what they have seen and trained. He's doing something completely new to them. They want to learn his "taisbaki".

After so many, one should stop and take stock of things. Open the box and say, well, perhaps it wasn't just body mechanics. It certainly couldn't have been this "magical ki" stuff either because no one in that area can use it martially. We have hundreds of people who knew jujutsu, body mechanics, timing, angles, didn't care for "ki", but were not only awed by Ueshiba but they couldn't defeat him. He wasn't doing what they were familiar with.

So now, cut to the present. After 40 + years of people doing body mechanics to the nth degree, people doing "magical ki" work to the nth degree, people mixing those two, people studying other martial arts to add, etc, no one is still any nearer to the skill levels of the greats. Where does that leave us?

IMO:
1. Techniques and warm ups are missing a core component to them that Ueshiba did.
2. Body Mechanics, timing, angles, etc are necessary but there is still a missing component to reach Ueshiba's level.
3. The greats (Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, etc) all did very similar things, all talked about the secret of aiki, and all of them kept it very hidden. There is a training methodology for that "aiki" and it wasn't passed down through most aikido schools.

Anyone still think that if they work on techniques, body mechanics, timing, etc for another 40+ years, they'll eventually get as good as Ueshiba? Or how about taking those greats at their word and there really was a "secret of aiki" and a specific training methodology? One that Ueshiba never truly passed along...

Then we are all wasting our time if that is what people think... Tomiki Sensei spoke of the subtle use of isometrics when talking about Proff Ueshiba's abilities when he did all the "tricks" that people couldn't understand. Maybe he was one in a million and no one will be able to achieve his level. I'll let you know in another 30 years or so.....

You should go start a new thread and explain, as body mechanics, what people are really talking about when they discuss or describe ki. Give some examples, extending ki, sinking ki, etc and then explain what's really happening, or supposed to be happening, for everyone. Heck, explain aiki while you're at it too.

Forget the word "ki" for a start and practice against some one who resists with all there guile......

I honestly don't remember the word ``Ki`` being used more than two or three times from when I started Aikido in 1957 until the mid 1970s. Its does seem odd when I remember Kenshiro Abbe say `` we will only speak of Ki when you are dan grade `` now Ki students are invited from ``day one `` to step on the mat and learn to breath through their toes and the promise of multi coloured ribbons...

TK Chiba Sensei arrived in the UK in 1966, I joined him in 1967, I was his assistant for several years, I have no memory of ever discussing Ki on or off the mat.

Why arn't these people who do these fantastic things with Ki on the TV ??? If what they do was real ?, they would make a fortune..........

I honestly don't remember the word ``Ki`` being used more than two or three times from when I started Aikido in 1957 until the mid 1970s. Its does seem odd when I remember Kenshiro Abbe say `` we will only speak of Ki when you are dan grade `` now Ki students are invited from ``day one `` to step on the mat and learn to breath through their toes and the promise of multi coloured ribbons...

TK Chiba Sensei arrived in the UK in 1966, I joined him in 1967, I was his assistant for several years, I have no memory of ever discussing Ki on or off the mat.

Why arn't these people who do these fantastic things with Ki on the TV ??? If what they do was real ?, they would make a fortune..........

All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement ....

Regarless of whether ki actually exists, maybe thinking in terms of ki/extenstion/etc. is the only way to get those body mechanics expressed. In other words, your brain needs that model to make your body get the job done when there really isn't any other vocabularly for it. And if it's that hard to describe, imagine how hard it is to do!

Trouble is Henry they do [make a fortune]!!!!! But the gullible are gullible

Shades of Uri Geller......?

The last couple of years, I've gained some insight into the finacial side of the martial arts. Basically, if you want to get rich quick, do something else.

If you have a storefront school, the only way to even hope of breaking even -- forget about turning a profit, you just want enough to pay the rent! -- the only hope is to have a kids' class, the bigger, the better; and a pro shop, selling equipment and uniforms. And even then, you charge what the market will bear. Some places you can charge $1000 for a black belt test. Other places, no way. If you're hosting a tournament or a seminar, you'd better hope enough people come in from out of town and pay the seminar fee. to even hope of getting back whatever it cost to put that thing together! If you don't have a stoerfront, fewer costs but probably fewer revenues. And if you're talking about at most a half a dozen people rocking and rolling in someone's basement, then anything you make is probably gas money and little else.

Now if the "they" making a fortune are the Aikikai foundation, then I have no idea if they're turnig a profit; ditto for the other organizations out there. But they face the same economic realities I mentioned above. If you have a lot of revenues, you only make a "fortune" if you don't have a lot of costs! And they have their work cut out for them. And if you're bouncing all over the place teaching seminars, the jet lag seems to counter the "riches" coming in.

This is not to say there aren't huksters in the MA world; of course there are. But for those who are sincere about what they're doing, they'd better be motivated by the love of the arts rather than getting rich off it because in most cases you probably won't.

The last couple of years, I've gained some insight into the finacial side of the martial arts. Basically, if you want to get rich quick, do something else.

If you have a storefront school, the only way to even hope of breaking even -- forget about turning a profit, you just want enough to pay the rent! -- the only hope is to have a kids' class, the bigger, the better; and a pro shop, selling equipment and uniforms. And even then, you charge what the market will bear. Some places you can charge $1000 for a black belt test. Other places, no way. If you're hosting a tournament or a seminar, you'd better hope enough people come in from out of town and pay the seminar fee. to even hope of getting back whatever it cost to put that thing together! If you don't have a stoerfront, fewer costs but probably fewer revenues. And if you're talking about at most a half a dozen people rocking and rolling in someone's basement, then anything you make is probably gas money and little else.

Now if the "they" making a fortune are the Aikikai foundation, then I have no idea if they're turnig a profit; ditto for the other organizations out there. But they face the same economic realities I mentioned above. If you have a lot of revenues, you only make a "fortune" if you don't have a lot of costs! And they have their work cut out for them. And if you're bouncing all over the place teaching seminars, the jet lag seems to counter the "riches" coming in.

This is not to say there aren't huksters in the MA world; of course there are. But for those who are sincere about what they're doing, they'd better be motivated by the love of the arts rather than getting rich off it because in most cases you probably won't.

I'm well aware of that.... believe me....

I'm talking about people who are gullible no matter what you tell them and there are quite a number on this site.... it's evident to me
But maybe I'm too cutting and honest about how I see and rationalise things.......
Nobody possesses mystical powers.... knowledge, maybe but magic absolutely not..... It does not exist...... period

Regarless of whether ki actually exists, maybe thinking in terms of ki/extenstion/etc. is the only way to get those body mechanics expressed. In other words, your brain needs that model to make your body get the job done when there really isn't any other vocabularly for it. And if it's that hard to describe, imagine how hard it is to do!

Forget the word "ki" It's what opens the door and starts your car in the morning when it makes contacts inside the cylinder, now there's a thing...... electricity, but I won't go into that here, other than say ya can't see it but sure as hell feel it if ya don't respect it.... the same electric feeling you get in your arm when someone wacks on a nikkyo......

Regarless of whether ki actually exists, maybe thinking in terms of ki/extenstion/etc. is the only way to get those body mechanics expressed. In other words, your brain needs that model to make your body get the job done when there really isn't any other vocabularly for it. And if it's that hard to describe, imagine how hard it is to do!

I've personally found that when you repeat something 1000's of times over it's never the same each time, but the doing does kinda get better over time.... nothing mysterious about that.....
It's called adaptability and making use of any given situation....
I practise it every day of my life.....
I assume you do?

We had a senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido visit our dojo some years ago, he asked if he could demonstrate his Ki, non of his techniques worked, sadly for him he didn't bring a ``trained `` ukie with him.

Did that senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido lure & lead Uke's attack before physical contact is made?? Or was Uke's attack static??

I believe luring & leading put effortless Aiki into the equation, while static attacks put merely Nage's Ki extension into the equation.

In my opinion, based in my understanding of Aiki & Ki extension, we need both for our Aikido to work.

Just my 2-cents worth..

It's 2 cents worth.....

Go up against someone who doesn't give a dam about whether you lead or lure.... or even do ukemi. Your technique (if you have any) will not be pretty as you imagine to be when and if it ever happens to you..... believe it.....

I honestly don't remember the word ``Ki`` being used more than two or three times from when I started Aikido in 1957 until the mid 1970s. Its does seem odd when I remember Kenshiro Abbe say `` we will only speak of Ki when you are dan grade `` now Ki students are invited from ``day one `` to step on the mat and learn to breath through their toes and the promise of multi coloured ribbons...

TK Chiba Sensei arrived in the UK in 1966, I joined him in 1967, I was his assistant for several years, I have no memory of ever discussing Ki on or off the mat.

Why arn't these people who do these fantastic things with Ki on the TV ??? If what they do was real ?, they would make a fortune..........

These are the main differences in training approaches between the various Aikido schools/ryus/styles.

Some emphasise a wide variety of techniques in Kyu grades & only introduce Ki extensions in the Dan grades,
while others emphasise Ki extensions (on a handful of basic techniques) in Kyu grades & only begin exploring the wider range of techniques in the Dan grades.

There are pros & cons for each approach. My Ryu, Tendoryu, adopts the latter approach. For Kyu grades, to develop our Ki extension from our centre, we practise on 4 basic techniques: Ikkyo, Shiho Nage, Kotegaeshi & Irimi Nage continuously.
Only from Shodan that we begin exploring the other less-known techniques.

RE: Ki a mysticalmagical thing??

I believe there is Ki in everyone of us. We just have to learn to develop, control & project it.