Any person who spent the majority of his career playing as a center or who has the majority of his accomplishments as a center is eligible

It is highly recommended that you use these guidelines to determine whether a player qualifies as a "center" for the purposes of this project (link)

A player who qualifies as a center should be ranked based on his overall accomplishments as a forward or hockey player.

Players should be judged only on their accomplishments as hockey players

Players currently active are eligible, but should be ranked based only on what they have already done

Preliminary Discussion Thread

Anyone may participate in this thread, even if he does not plan on taking part in the voting phase

Any center may be discussed

Posters are encouraged to share information about players in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists

Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for Round 2 of Voting

Please do NOT rank players outright in the preliminary thread

Voting

Round 1

All participants submit a list of 80 centers ranked in order

All eras MUST be considered, and consideration should be given to both NHL and non-NHL players

To make it easier to aggregate the submitted lists, please list players using their most commonly used name; e.g. Cyclone Taylor, not Frederick Wellington Taylor; Hooley Smith, not Reginald Smith

Lists may be submitted via email to (will be posted later) or via PM to (will be posted later). Excel format is preferred, but a top to bottom list of 80 is fine too

We will be accepting lists between September 20 and October 10. Please PM me if you can't make this timeframe and would like to participate

Players will be assigned a point value on the list based on ranking

Players will be awarded 80 points for a 1st place vote down to 1 point for a 80th place vote

An aggregate list of the top centers will be compiled ranking them in order of the most total points

Participants MUST submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible for Round 2

Round 2

The top 8 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread

Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias

Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active

Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM

Top 4 players will be added to the list

Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained

After Vote 5 (when we have a list of the top 20 centers), we may increase the number of players added per round to 5. Participants will be allowed to vote on whether to increase the number added per round to 5 or to stay at 4 per round

If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 or 5 players in certain rounds

The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

Quality Assurance

Lists will be subject to an evaluation process

The submitter of a questionable list will be given an opportunity to defend or justify any selection under question or to correct errors and resubmit

The complete voting record of every participant will be released at the end of the project

Participants Code of Conduct

Participants must recognize that this is a collaborative project and that we all share the same goals, no matter how much we disagree on individual ranking

Participants should treat each other with respect and must not openly question the motivations of other participants

Repeatedly violating these rules may result in ban from this project and possibly similar future projects on the History of Hockey board

TheDevilMadeMe

08-22-2013 11:50 AM

I know many of you know this already, but if you don't, a quick and easy way to get a general overview of a player is to google his name with the word "legends" after it. For most players, you will get links to two different profiles of the player: his profile on LegendsOfHockey.com, the which is officially affiliated with the Hockey Hall of fame; and his profile on GreatestHockeyLegends.com, a great blog by Joe Pelletier. Pelletier's blog in particular usually contains good profiles of non-NHL European players.

TheDevilMadeMe

08-22-2013 12:15 PM

Top 5 and 10 NHL scoring finishes 1926-27 to 2012-13

Note this is NOT intended as a list of the best centers of all-time, just one of several points of reference that may be helpful.

Why start in 1926-27? It is the first year after the last Western league folded, when the NHL contained all the talent in North America.

Notes:

The usual disclaimers apply - top 5/10 finishes involve an arbitrary cut off (a 10th place finish really isn't that different than 11th), competition and sometimes linemates still need to be taken into account, this is only a measure of regular season peak offense, etc.

The biggest weakness of looking at top 5/10 finishes is that all top 5 finishes are treated the same. A year when Mario Lemieux won the Art Ross by a huge margin is treated the same as a normal 5th place finish.

The ratio of goals to assists has remained fairly constant since World War 2. Prior to World War 2, the numbers varied, but there were fewer assists given out per goal than today. So looking at points will probably underrate the offensive contributions of pre-WW2 playmakers and overrate the offensive contributions of pre-WW2 goalscorers.

*Howie Morenz, Aurele Joliat, Babe Dye, Billy Burch, Nels Stewart, and Hooley Smith all had a least one Top 10 season in the NHL before 1926-27.

**Bill Cook, Dick Irvin, Frank Fredreckson, Frank Boucher, Duke Keats, Harry Oliver, and George Hay all had significant seasons in the western leagues before they folded.

Based on an old seventieslord formula, I am giving players a point for every top 5 finish and a point for every top 10 finish. It's something of a junk stat that is useful for sorting.

PLAYER

TOP 5-

TOP 10

TOTAL

Wayne Gretzky

16

16

32

Jean Beliveau

8

12

20

Mario Lemieux

9

10

19

Stan Mikita

9

9

18

Phil Esposito

8

10

18

Joe Sakic

6

10

16

Marcel Dionne

7

8

15

Bill Cowley

6

8

14

Alex Delvecchio

2

11

13

Howie Morenz*

5

7

12

Frank Boucher**

4

8

12

Nels Stewart*

3

9

12

Max Bentley

5

5

10

Marty Barry

4

6

10

Elmer Lach

4

6

10

Peter Stastny

4

6

10

Mark Messier

4

6

10

Henri Richard

3

7

10

Bobby Clarke

3

7

10

Adam Oates

3

7

10

Norm Ullman

2

8

10

Clint Smith

4

5

9

Sid Abel

4

5

9

Peter Forsberg

4

5

9

Joe Thornton

4

5

9

Sidney Crosby

4

5

9

Syl Apps

3

6

9

Bryan Trottier

3

6

9

Steve Yzerman

3

6

9

Jean Ratelle

2

7

9

Steven Stamkos

4

4

8

Milt Schmidt

3

5

8

Gilbert Perreault

3

5

8

Ron Francis

3

5

8

Ted Kennedy

3

4

7

Hooley Smith*

2

5

7

Denis Savard

2

5

7

Evgeni Malkin

3

3

6

Paul Ronty

2

4

6

Dale Hawerchuk

2

4

6

Darryl Sittler

1

5

6

Joe Primeau

2

3

5

Billy Taylor

2

3

5

Jacques Lemaire

2

3

5

Doug Gilmour

2

3

5

Pavel Datsyuk

2

3

5

Henrik Sedin

2

3

5

Bernie Federko

0

5

5

Bronco Horvath

2

2

4

Rick MacLeish

2

2

4

Bill Thoms

1

3

4

Tod Sloan

1

3

4

Dutch Reibel

1

3

4

Eric Lindros

1

3

4

Neil Colville

0

4

4

Red Kelly

0

4

4

Don McKenney

0

4

4

Cooney Weiland

1

2

3

Paul Haynes

1

2

3

Art Chapman

1

2

3

Phil Watson

1

2

3

Buddy O'Connor

1

2

3

Phil Goyette

1

2

3

Pete Mahovlich

1

2

3

Mike Rogers

1

2

3

Kent Nilsson

1

2

3

Barry Pederson

1

2

3

Bernie Nicholls

1

2

3

Pat Lafontaine

1

2

3

Pierre Turgeon

1

2

3

Jeremy Roenick

1

2

3

Sergei Fedorov

1

2

3

Mats Sundin

1

2

3

Jason Allison

1

2

3

Jason Spezza

1

2

3

Vincent LeCavalier

1

2

3

Nicklas Backstrom

1

2

3

Fleming MacKell

0

3

3

Murray Oliver

0

3

3

Pavol Demitra

0

3

3

Mike Modano

0

3

3

Brad Richards

0

3

3

Marc Savard

0

3

3

Dick Irvin**

1

1

2

Frank Fredrickson**

1

1

2

Billy Burch*

1

1

2

Ebbie Goodfellow

1

1

2

Doc Romnes

1

1

2

Jim Conacher

1

1

2

Don Raleigh

1

1

2

Walt Tkaczuk

1

1

2

Pierre Larouche

1

1

2

Tim Young

1

1

2

Dennis Maruk

1

1

2

John Cullen

1

1

2

Alex Zhamnov

1

1

2

Martin Straka

1

1

2

Claude Giroux

1

1

2

Harry Oliver**

0

2

2

Duke Keats**

0

2

2

Bill Carson

0

2

2

Dutch Gainor

0

2

2

Gus Bodnar

0

2

2

Metro Prystai

0

2

2

Ken Mosdell

0

2

2

Red Sullivan

0

2

2

Ralph Backstrom

0

2

2

Dave Keon

0

2

2

Red Berenson

0

2

2

Syl Apps, Jr

0

2

2

Jimmy Carson

0

2

2

Eric Staal

0

2

2

Henrik Zetterberg

0

2

2

Ryan Getzlaf

0

2

2

TheDevilMadeMe

08-22-2013 12:27 PM

Top 20 NHL scoring finishes 1966-67 to 2012-13

Note this is NOT intended as a list of the best centers of all-time, just one of several points of reference that may be helpful.

Once again, remember that competition matters. In years of greater competition, a 20th place finish may actually be closer to 1st or 2nd place than a 10th place finish in years of weaker competition.

Credit to Hockey Outsider for compiling most of this list.

*Remember that for players like Stan Mikita and Phil Esposito, only post-expansion seasons are counted here.

Like above, we are using something of a junk stat for sorting - adding together the number of top 5, top 10, top 15, and top 20 finishes.

PLAYER

TOP 5-

TOP 10

TOP 15

TOP 20

TOTAL

Wayne Gretzky

16

16

17

18

67

Marcel Dionne

7

8

12

16

43

Joe Sakic

6

10

11

14

41

Mario Lemieux

9

10

11

11

41

Phil Esposito*

8

8

9

11

36

Mark Messier

4

6

10

10

30

Steve Yzerman

3

6

9

11

29

Jean Ratelle

2

7

10

10

29

Ron Francis

3

5

8

12

28

Adam Oates

3

7

8

10

28

Bryan Trottier

3

6

8

10

27

Gilbert Perreault

3

5

9

9

26

Dale Hawerchuk

2

4

8

10

24

Bobby Clarke

3

7

7

7

24

Peter Stastny

4

6

7

7

24

Joe Thornton

4

5

7

8

24

Peter Forsberg

4

5

7

7

23

Darryl Sittler

1

5

7

8

21

Denis Savard

2

5

6

7

20

Stan Mikita*

3

3

6

7

19

Sidney Crosby

4

5

5

5

19

Bernie Federko

0

5

6

8

19

Mats Sundin

1

2

6

8

17

Pierre Turgeon

1

2

5

8

16

Mike Modano

0

3

6

7

16

Steven Stamkos

4

4

4

4

16

Bernie Nicholls

1

2

5

6

14

Doug Gilmour

2

3

3

6

14

Eric Lindros

1

3

4

6

14

Jeremy Roenick

1

2

5

6

14

Pavel Datsyuk

2

3

4

5

14

Henrik Sedin

2

3

4

5

14

Evgeni Malkin

3

3

3

5

14

Jacques Lemaire

2

3

4

4

13

Rick MacLeish

2

2

3

4

11

Pat LaFontaine

1

2

3

5

11

Pavol Demitra

0

3

4

4

11

Sergei Fedorov

1

2

4

4

11

Jason Spezza

1

2

4

4

11

Brad Richards

0

3

4

4

11

Jason Allison

1

2

3

4

10

Kent Nilsson

1

2

3

4

10

Marc Savard

0

3

3

4

10

Eric Staal

0

2

4

4

10

Ryan Getzlaf

0

2

4

4

10

Syl Apps, Jr

0

2

3

4

9

Dennis Maruk

1

1

3

4

9

Mike Rogers

1

2

3

3

9

Norm Ullman*

0

2

3

4

9

Henrik Zetterberg

0

2

3

4

9

Nicklas Backstrom

1

2

3

3

9

Alexei Yashin

0

1

3

4

8

Alex Delvecchio*

0

2

3

3

8

Barry Pederson

1

2

2

3

8

Jean Beliveau*

0

2

3

3

8

Vincent Lecavalier

1

2

2

3

8

Claude Giroux

1

1

3

3

8

Fred Stanfield

0

1

3

3

7

Pete Mahovlich

1

2

2

2

7

Doug Weight

0

1

2

3

6

Jimmy Carson

0

2

2

2

6

Martin Straka

1

1

2

2

6

Phil Goyette

1

1

2

2

6

Red Berenson

0

2

2

2

6

Walt Tkaczuk

1

1

2

2

6

Mike Ribeiro

0

1

2

3

6

Bobby Smith

0

1

2

3

6

Rod Brind'Amour

0

0

2

3

5

John Cullen

1

1

1

2

5

Neal Broten

0

1

2

2

5

Pierre Larouche

1

1

1

2

5

Patrick Marleau

0

0

2

3

5

Anze Kopitar

0

0

2

3

5

Tim Young

1

1

1

1

4

Gary Unger

0

0

0

4

4

Craig Janney

0

0

1

3

4

Joe Nieuwendyk

0

0

1

3

4

Peter McNab

0

0

1

3

4

Butch Goring

0

0

2

2

4

Olli Jokinen

0

0

2

2

4

Robert Lang

0

1

1

2

4

Alex Zhamnov

1

1

1

1

4

Jonathan Toews

0

0

2

2

4

John Tavares

0

1

1

2

4

TheDevilMadeMe

08-22-2013 12:43 PM

NHL All-Star Teams (1st, 2nd, and 3rd) 1930-31 to 2012-13

(Credit to Hockey Outsider for compiling these from 1967 to present).

Third Team All Stars are unofficial, but derived from the same voting that gives us the First and Second Team All Stars. I was able to award a 3rd Team All Star in every year but 1941, 1952, 1953, and 1958

When player was an All Star in a position other than his primary one (as a center), I am indicated his TOTAL number of All Star nods (at either position) in parenthesis.

Player

First

Second

Third

Total

Wayne Gretzky

8

7

1

16

Jean Beliveau

6

4

1

11

Mario Lemieux

5

4

0

9

Stan Mikita

6

2

0

8

Phil Esposito

6

2

0

8

Bobby Clarke

2

2

3

7

Bill Cowley

4

1

1

6

Syl Apps

2

3

1

6

Milt Schmdit

3

1

2

6

Henri Richard

1

3

2

6

Norm Ullman

1

1

4

6

Ted Kennedy

0

3

3

6

Elmer Lach

3

2

0

5

Joe Sakic

3

0

2

5

Marcel Dionne

2

2

1

5

Bryan Trottier

2

2

1

5

Sidney Crosby

2

1

2

5

Joe Thornton

1

2

2

5

Gilbert Perreault

0

2

3

5

Peter Forsberg

3

0

1

4

Frank Boucher*

3

1

0

4

Hooley Smith*

1

1

2

4

Max Bentley

1

1

2

4

Dave Keon

0

2

2

4

Steven Stamkos

0

2

2

4

Evgeni Malkin

3

0

0

3

Howie Morenz*

2

1

0

3

Sid Abel

2

1(2)

0

3(4)

Mark Messier

2(4)

0(1)

1

3(6)

Eric Lindros

1

1

1

3

Steve Yzerman

1

0

2

3

Neil Colville

0

2(3)

1

3(4)

Peter Stastny

0

0

3

3

Ron Francis

0

0

3

3

Henrik Sedin

2

0

0

2

Ken Mosdell

1

1

0

2

Marty Barry

1

0

1

2

Mats Sundin

0

2

0

2

Joe Primeau*

0

1

1

2

Tod Sloan

0

1

1

2

Pavel Datsyuk

0

1

1

2

Mike Modano

0

1

1

2

Darryl Sittler

0

1

1

2

Denis Savard

0

1

1

2

Jonathan Toews

0

1

1

2

Dale Hawerchuk

0

1

1

2

Doug Gilmour

0

0

2

2

Fleming MacKell

1

0

0(1)

1(2)

Sergei Fedorov

1

0

0

1

Bill Thoms

0

1

0

1

Cooney Weiland*

0

1

0

1

Art Chapman

0

1

0

1

Phil Watson

0

1

0

1

Buddy O'Connor

0

1

0

1

Doug Bentley

0

1

0

1

Alex Delvecchio

0

1 (2)

0

1 (2)

Ed Litzenberger

0

1

0

1

Bronco Horvath

0

1

0

1

Jean Ratelle

0

1

0

1

Eric Staal

0

1

0

1

Alexei Yashin

0

1

0

1

Adam Oates

0

1

0

1

Alexei Zhamnov

0

1

0

1

Pat LaFontaine

0

1

0

1

Vincent Lecavalier

0

1

0

1

Don Grosso

0

0

1

1

Clint Smith

0

0

1

1

Paul Ronty

0

0

1

1

Edgar Laprade

0

0

1

1

Dave Creighton

0

0

1

1

Don McKenney

0

0

1

1

Red Kelly

0

0

1

1

Phil Goyette

0

0

1

1

Claude Giroux

0

0

1

1

Barry Pederson

0

0

1

1

Guy Chouinard

0

0

1

1

Red Berenson

0

0

1

1

Doug Weight

0

0

1

1

Walt Tzaczuk

0

0

1

1

Pete Mahovlich

0

0

1

1

TheDevilMadeMe

08-22-2013 12:47 PM

Top 5 Hart voting 1923-24 to 2012-13

Player

1st

2nd

3rd

4th

5th

total

Wayne Gretzky

9

1

1

1

1

13

Mario Lemieux

3

3

1

1

1

9

Jean Beliveau

2

4

1

2

0

9

Bobby Clarke

3

1

0

1

0

5

Phil Esposito

2

2

1

0

0

5

Stan Mikita

2

1

0

1

1

5

Bryan Trottier

1

2

1

0

1

5

Ted Kennedy

1

1

0

0

3

5

Syl Apps

0

2

2

0

1

5

Howie Morenz

3

1

0

0

0

4

Bill Cowley

2

1

1

0

0

4

Milt Schmidt

1

1

0

1

1

4

Mark Messier

2

1

0

0

0

3

Nels Stewart

2

0

0

0

1

3

Evgeni Malkin

1

2

0

0

0

3

Elmer Lach

1

1

1

0

0

3

Sidney Crosby

1

1

1

0

0

3

Max Bentley

1

0

1

1

0

3

Joe Thornton

1

0

0

1

1

3

Marcel Dionne

0

1

2

0

0

3

Hooley Smith

0

1

1

1

0

3

Doug Gilmour

0

1

0

1

1

3

Frank Nighbor*

1

0

1

0

0

2

Eric Lindros

1

0

1

0

0

2

Sid Abel

1

0

0

1

0

2

Billy Burch

1

0

0

0

1

2

Sergei Fedorov

1

0

0

0

1

2

Norm Ullman

0

1

0

0

1

2

Dale Hawerchuk

0

1

0

0

1

2

Steve Yzerman

0

0

1

1

0

2

Red Berenson

0

0

1

1

0

2

Denis Savard

0

0

1

0

1

2

Pat Lafontaine

0

0

1

0

1

2

Henri Richard

0

0

0

2

0

2

Frank Boucher

0

0

0

1

1

2

Buddy O’Connor

1

0

0

0

0

1

Joe Sakic

1

0

0

0

0

1

Peter Forsberg

1

0

0

0

0

1

Henrik Sedin

1

0

0

0

0

1

Tod Sloan

0

1

0

0

0

1

Alexei Yashin

0

1

0

0

0

1

Steven Stamkos

0

1

0

0

0

1

Frank Frederickson**

0

0

1

0

0

1

Bill Thoms

0

0

1

0

0

1

Darryl Sittler

0

0

1

0

0

1

Pavel Datsyuk

0

0

1

0

0

1

John Tavares

0

0

1

0

0

1

Dick Irvin**

0

0

0

1

0

1

Paul Ronty

0

0

0

1

0

1

Dave Keon

0

0

0

1

0

1

Jean Ratelle

0

0

0

1

0

1

Peter Stastny

0

0

0

1

0

1

Adam Oates

0

0

0

1

0

1

Eric Staal

0

0

0

1

0

1

Vincent LeCavalier

0

0

0

1

0

1

Claude Giroux

0

0

0

1

0

1

Jonathan Toews

0

0

0

1

0

1

Ebbie Goodfellow

0

0

0

0

1

1

Marty Barry

0

0

0

0

1

1

Neil Colville

0

0

0

0

1

1

Gilbert Perreault

0

0

0

0

1

1

Pierre Turgeon

0

0

0

0

1

1

Notes

*Frank Nighbor won the inaugural Hart Trophy at the age of 31 with most of his best years behind him.

**Frank Fredrickson and Dick Irvin spent the majority of their careers in the western leagues. They were part of the group of western players who joined the NHL in 1926-27. The Top 4 in Hart voting in 1926-27 had all spent the prior season in the WHL.

The cut off at 5th place is somewhat arbitrary, but has a reason: in many years, that's when the vote totals start to become fairly minimal. Nonetheless, there are some players hurt by this somewhat arbitrary cutoff, probably none more than Howie Morenz, who also finished 6th, 6th, 7th, 8th.

We only have the top 4 in 1933 and 1934.

Remember that a player playing in the shadow of a great teammate (particularly one who plays the same position) isn’t going to get many Hart votes. This probably hurt Mark Messier and Henri Richard (to name 2 noteworthy examples), and may have hurt Sakic and Forsberg in various years.

This obviously doesn’t take into account competition. Bill Cowley (2nd in 1944) and Elmer Lach (1st in 1945) obviously had much weaker competition during World War 2 than anyone who competed against Gretzky.

In the really early years, there seemed to be a greater emphasis on the “valuable to his team” part of the Hart definition – see Billy Burch’s Hart record vs his scoring placements.

Bet you didn’t expect Jean Beliveau to have what looks like a very similar Hart record to Mario Lemieux. Mario's wins were by very wide margins though.

Red Berenson might be the most surprising player on this list. He was recognized as the best player in the Expansion Division in 1968 and 1969.

matnor

08-22-2013 01:39 PM

Let me first say that it's great to see this project up and running. I look forward to read the discussions and learn from it. I'm not planning to participate but I do have easy access to quite a lot of data that I might post if there is interest in it. If there is any data that you are interested in, please ask and I might be able to help you out. And in that vein, I noticed some inconsistencies in the data that I believe is (mostly) due to arbitrarily cutting ties. Below is a list of players that I have corrected for the top-20 scoring finishes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
(Post 70424375)

PLAYER

TOP 5-

TOP 10

TOP 15

TOP 20

TOTAL

Phil Esposito

8

8

9

11

36

Bernie Federko

0

5

6

8

19

Bernie Nicholls

1

2

6

7

16

Henrik Sedin

2

3

4

5

14

Rick MacLeish

2

2

3

4

11

Mike Rogers

1

2

3

3

9

Syl Apps, Jr

0

2

3

4

9

Claude Giroux

1

1

3

3

8

Pit Martin

0

0

3

4

7

Phil Goyette

1

1

2

2

6

Bobby Smith

0

1

2

3

6

Tim Young

1

1

1

1

4

Garry Unger

0

0

0

4

4

TheDevilMadeMe

08-22-2013 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matnor
(Post 70427021)

Let me first say that it's great to see this project up and running. I look forward to read the discussions and learn from it. I'm not planning to participate but I do have easy access to quite a lot of data that I might post if there is interest in it. If there is any data that you are interested in, please ask and I might be able to help you out. And in that vein, I noticed some inconsistencies in the data that I believe is (mostly) due to arbitrarily cutting ties. Below is a list of players that I have corrected for the top-20 scoring finishes.

Thanks, I'll correct it. The original list of top 20 finishes was compiled by HO via excel and he said it had some issues with dealing with ties. I must have screwed up entering Giroux's numbers myself (not that he really matters for the purposes of this project).

Hockey Outsider

08-22-2013 01:50 PM

I won't have time to participate in the project, but I'll try to contribute occasionally.

The issue with ties was my fault - the tables were generated in Excel and (at the time) I couldn't figure out how to account for ties in some cases (i.e. if two players are tied for 10th in points, sometimes one player would get credit for a tenth place finish, and the other would only get credit for eleventh place). Appreciate your help in cleaning up the data.

jigglysquishy

08-22-2013 01:51 PM

I'm glad to see this really kicking.

I'm trying to get together my initial top 80 list and am having some difficulty finding data from pre-NHL and Soviet era players. I.e. scoring finishes, trophy shares, and all that fun jazz.

From all the reading I'm doing it seems like Joe Malone and Vladimir Petrov were quite dominant players in the NHA and Soviet leauge, respectively. Does anyone have any links to articles written at the time comparing them to their peers?

tarheelhockey

08-22-2013 01:58 PM

It begins! :vhappy:

TheDevilMadeMe

08-22-2013 02:05 PM

I assume most of this thread will be devoted to pre-NHL players and non-NHL Europeans since they are the hardest to research.

But before I personally try to get into that, are there any NHL-era players who might be included on a top 80 list who aren't listed in posts 3-6 of this thread?

The one I can think of is Guy Carbonneau. If you're like me, you have Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clarke, and Guy Carbonneau as the three best defensive centers of all time in no particular order. Nighbor and Clarke easily make our list based on their two-way play (everyone knows Clarke, but I think there is a good case that Nighbor is the third best player to ever play the game before 1950 after Howie Morenz and Eddie Shore). But what to do about Carbonneau, whose offense isn't anywhere near those guys? I'd like to make room for one of the top 3 defensive centers of all time at least somewhere in my top 80; but have no idea to compare him to more offensively oriented players.

BraveCanadian

08-22-2013 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
(Post 70427891)

But what to do about Carbonneau, whose offense isn't anywhere near those guys? I'd like to make room for one of the top 3 defensive centers of all time at least somewhere in my top 80; but have no idea to compare him to more offensively oriented players.

Pretty tough to gauge whether or not his impact is greater than even fairly one dimensional offensive players.

The statistics available are almost useless for defense, and how effective a shutdown player is on the outcome of a game really depends on a lot on his coach vs. the opponent's.. home/away and his direct counterpart.

Much more so than an offensive player imo.

Hardyvan123

08-22-2013 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
(Post 70427891)

I assume most of this thread will be devoted to pre-NHL players and non-NHL Europeans since they are the hardest to research.

Even with the research it's a hard call where to exactly slot these guys with limited and different information than comparing like to like guys, even from different eras, in the NHL.

Quote:

I'd like to make room for one of the top 3 defensive centers of all time at least somewhere in my top 80; but have no idea to compare him to more offensively oriented players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveCanadian
(Post 70428879)

Pretty tough to gauge whether or not his impact is greater than even fairly one dimensional offensive players.

The statistics available are almost useless for defense, and how effective a shutdown player is on the outcome of a game really depends on a lot on his coach vs. the opponent's.. home/away and his direct counterpart.

Much more so than an offensive player imo.

Comes down to a judgement call I guess, offensive stats are pretty much more straight forward and require, usually, less analysis to get an idea of how good a guy was to his peers.

My gut tells me there are too many good 2 way players and pure offensive guys to have guy in my top 80 but i haven't done my list and I guess he is one guy in the mix near the end I would think but that's just a guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy
(Post 70427379)

I'm glad to see this really kicking.

I'm trying to get together my initial top 80 list and am having some difficulty finding data from pre-NHL and Soviet era players. I.e. scoring finishes, trophy shares, and all that fun jazz.

From all the reading I'm doing it seems like Joe Malone and Vladimir Petrov were quite dominant players in the NHA and Soviet league, respectively. Does anyone have any links to articles written at the time comparing them to their peers?

Indeed they were, the question is how to slot them in and give everyone a fair evaluation, tough choices ahead, especially over 13 decades and at least 2 strong ones for the non NHL guys from Europe.

Some eras are going to feel the squeeze I think.

Sturminator

08-23-2013 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
(Post 70427891)

I assume most of this thread will be devoted to pre-NHL players and non-NHL Europeans since they are the hardest to research.

But before I personally try to get into that, are there any NHL-era players who might be included on a top 80 list who aren't listed in posts 3-6 of this thread?

You've got everybody that I have considered.

Quote:

The one I can think of is Guy Carbonneau. If you're like me, you have Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clarke, and Guy Carbonneau as the three best defensive centers of all time in no particular order. Nighbor and Clarke easily make our list based on their two-way play (everyone knows Clarke, but I think there is a good case that Nighbor is the third best player to ever play the game before 1950 after Howie Morenz and Eddie Shore). But what to do about Carbonneau, whose offense isn't anywhere near those guys? I'd like to make room for one of the top 3 defensive centers of all time at least somewhere in my top 80; but have no idea to compare him to more offensively oriented players.

I have a very difficult time placing Carbs, as well. At present, he's struggling to crack my top-80 against guys like Lecavalier, Richards, and Lepine.

Sturminator

08-23-2013 01:57 AM

Allright, some more data for us to evaluate, all of which is coming from this thread, which now lives in the By the Numbers section. The VsX system is a collaborative effort among ATDers that grew from iterative tweaks to BM67's original work with Vs#2 scorer analysis. Here is a description of the methodology:

Quote:

1. First preference is to use the #2 scorer

2. If #3 points/#2 points < .90, I use the #3 scorer, unless...

3. There is a gap of greater than 10% anywhere else in the top-5 - following the same method as above: [small #]/[large #] < .90.

At that point, I take the first gap, and identify the upper outlier group (top 3 or 4 or 5 above which the gap occurs), and then go down into the scoring table until I reach a number of players which equals: [size of outlier group] * 2. The benchmark is set as an average of the scoring of these players.

4. If any player in the top-5 is more than 7% below the player above him and more than 7% above the player below him, his score is taken as the benchmark. [this is the Bathgate Rule]

Joe Sakic and Ilya Kovalchuk are tied in second place on the scorer's list with 87 points. There are no gaps of greater than 10% in the rest of the top-5, so Sakic/Kovalchuk, as co-#2 scorers, are used as the benchmark.

There is only a 9% gap between the #2 and #3 scorers here, but there is a 15% gap between the #3 and #4 scorers. The outlier group is the top three, so we average the scoring of the top 6 players to set our benchmark, which ends up being 119 points - a completely artificial number.

Here, Andy Bathgate is more than 7% behind Beliveau above him, and more than 7% ahead of Litzenberger below him. Bathgate's score is taken as the benchmark in this season.

All of that is just to establish the benchmark for a single season, after which we divide everybody's points for the season by that number to come up with "scores" for each player which reflect their performance versus the benchmark.

Sturminator

08-23-2013 02:02 AM

Generated benchmark scores can then be crunched over whole careers in order to compare player performance across eras, on the theory that the performance of the benchmark scorers (essentially the first non-outliers) has remained constant throughout post-consolidation (eg. 1926 to present) NHL history.

We generated some career-spanning statistics with this methodology which ended up being, I think, quite useful and interesting. For the numbers below, we used a mild weighting system which gives a bit more weight to sustained peak than longevity. The weighting methodology is explained in the thread. At any rate, here are some numbers:

Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2012):

Rank

Player

Rank

1

Wayne Gretzky

155.1

2

Phil Esposito

123.4

3

Mario Lemieux

120.4

4

Jean Beliveau

108.9

5

Stan Mikita

108.1

6

Bill Cowley*

103.5

7

Marcel Dionne

103.2

8

Howie Morenz

102.8

9

Joe Sakic

97.9

10

Frank Boucher

95.4

11

Elmer Lach*

95.4

12

Max Bentley*

94.9

13

Steve Yzerman

93.5

14

Bryan Trottier

93.5

15

Joe Thornton

93.3

16

Syl Apps Sr

93

17

Peter Forsberg

90.9

18

Nels Stewart

90.5

19

Adam Oates

90.2

20

Marty Barry

89.9

21

Mark Messier

89.5

22

Norm Ullman

88.7

23

Jean Ratelle

88.5

24

Peter Stastny

88.3

25

Sid Abel

87.8

26

Bobby Clarke

87.6

27

Ron Francis

87.6

28

Milt Schmidt

87.5

29

Henri Richard

86.2

30

Dale Hawerchuk

85.9

31

Denis Savard

85.4

32

Eric Lindros

85.4

33

Alex Delvecchio

84.9

34

Gilbert Perreault

84.6

35

Darryl Sittler

84.1

36

Clint Smith*

82.6

37

Sidney Crosby

82.4

38

Mats Sundin

82.3

39

Doug Gilmour

82.3

40

Pierre Turgeon

82.3

41

Mike Modano

81.7

42

Henrik Sedin

81.7

43

Jeremy Roenick

81.5

44

Ted Kennedy

81.5

45

Sergei Fedorov

81

46

Bernie Nicholls

80.3

47

Cooney Weiland

79.4

48

Pavel Datsyuk

78.9

49

Pat LaFontaine

78.8

50

Hooley Smith

78.8

51

Doug Weight

78.6

52

Brad Richards

78.4

53

Phil Watson

78.1

54

Alexei Yashin

77.6

55

Bernie Federko

77.3

56

Vincent Lecavalier

77.2

57

Joe Primeau

76

58

Don McKenney

75.8

59

Jacques Lemaire

75.5

60

Jason Spezza

75.2

61

Phil Goyette

74.9

62

Vincent Damphousse

74.2

63

Bill Thoms

74.2

64

Marc Savard

73.9

65

Eric Staal

73.8

66

Neil Colville

73.2

67

Evgeni Malkin

73.2

68

Henrik Zetterberg

73.2

69

Dave Keon

73.2

70

Rod Brind'Amour

72.8

71

Tod Sloan

72.8

72

Kent Nilsson

71.7

73

Dennis Maruk

71.7

74

Rick MacLeish

71.6

75

Buddy O'Connor*

71.3

76

Patrick Marleau

71

77

Ed Litzenberger

70.8

78

Joe Nieuwendyk

70.5

79

Pete Mahovlich

70.3

80

Billy Taylor*

69.5

* wartime star

Note: this does not include data for the 2012-13 season.

Sturminator

08-23-2013 02:14 AM

Top-10 weighted VsX for centers (1968-2012):

Rank

Player

Result

1

Wayne Gretzky

146.2

2

Mario Lemieux

113.9

3

Phil Esposito

113.7

4

Marcel Dionne

97.9

5

Joe Sakic

94.8

6

Steve Yzerman

89.7

7

Joe Thornton

89.4

8

Bryan Trottier

88.2

9

Adam Oates

87

10

Mark Messier

85.7

11

Ron Francis

84.9

12

Jean Ratelle

84.4

13

Peter Forsberg

84

14

Dale Hawerchuk

82.4

15

Peter Stastny

82.1

16

Bobby Clarke

82

17

Gilbert Perreault

80.8

18

Mats Sundin

80.5

19

Darryl Sittler

79.9

20

Pierre Turgeon

79.6

21

Denis Savard

79.2

22

Mike Modano

78.5

23

Doug Gilmour

78.3

24

Sergei Fedorov

77.9

25

Eric Lindros

77.8

26

Jeremy Roenick

77.2

27

Sidney Crosby (**)

76.5

28

Bernie Nicholls

74.8

29

Bernie Federko

74.4

30

Brad Richards

74.2

31

Doug Weight

73.5

32

Evgeni Malkin (**)

73.4

33

Pat LaFontaine

73.3

34

Alexei Yashin

72.4

35

Vincent Lecavalier

72.1

36

Henrik Sedin

71.8

37

Vincent Damphousse

71.7

38

Pavel Datsyuk

71.7

39

Jacques Lemaire

70.4

40

Rod Brind'Amour

69.4

** a minimum score of 50 is awarded for all seasons, even those not played. This only affects Crosby and Malkin in the above analysis

Note: this does not include data for the 2012-13 season.

Sturminator

08-23-2013 02:26 AM

My thoughts on the VsX system, in brief:

- it is the best shorthand system we have for comparing player scoring across eras. It is rather easily better than comparing top-X finishes.

- it is not perfect, as it rests upon an assumption of equality (first non-outlier is equal across eras) which, like all non-tautological assumptions of equality, is necessarily false.

- it tells us a lot more about the relative scoring of the players lower down in the list than it tells us about the scoring of the guys at the top. The fact that the guys at the top of the list fall in such an intuitive relation to one another serves moreso to validate the methodology than to illuminate anything we didn't already know about their respective careers.

- there are still a lot of factors to consider when evaluating these players offensively, to say nothing of overall value. Non-NHL seasons (Stastny's Golden Stick), injury issues, offensive help from teammates, etc. - none of that is accounted for here. There is also no attempt made to numerically account for the effect of the war years on league and individual scoring, nor even an attempt to define what the boundaries of the war era really are. Wartime players are simply given an asterisk. There is also no accounting for differences in NHL assist tabulation in the pre-war era, when league goals typically outnumbered league assists.

- at any rate, these numbers provide a good rough outline of relative player performance across eras. They are not meant to be definitive.

TheDevilMadeMe

08-23-2013 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sturminator
(Post 70447111)

- it is the best shorthand system we have for comparing player scoring across eras. It is rather easily better than comparing top-X finishes.

.

I think Vs-X is quite a bit better than Top X finishes in determining the quality of a player (as a scorer), so long as the player has played enough seasons to fully "fill out" your requirements of 7 or 10 seasons (there's no way you're convincing me Zetterberg is even close to Malkin offensively, let alone equal).

A strength of Top X finishes is that it is an easy way to view longevity as an elite scorer - how may times did a player reach a certain level of scoring. I realize you can make tables showing the number of seasons a player reached a certain benchmark under a Vs-X system, but that gets really messy, to look at if nothing else.

Sturminator

08-23-2013 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
(Post 70447589)

I think Vs-X is quite a bit better than Top X finishes in determining the quality of a player (as a scorer), so long as the player has played enough seasons to fully "fill out" your requirements of 7 or 10 seasons (there's no way you're convincing me Zetterberg is even close to Malkin offensively, let alone equal).

Yeah, how to handle players with career/peaks which do not meet the length criteria is a matter of some difficulty, and the specific rankings of active players who do not meet them yet (not so much Joe Thornton) are of questionable value. There is also the general question of how peak vs. longevity should be weighed. The weighting which informed the above lists gave relatively mild preference to peak performance. Some people, including you I think, will want to weigh peak more, others may place a greater value on longevity (wanting to weigh seasons past 7/10, for example). This is really a matter of taste.

As you know, I chose 7 seasons as the standard for the whole hockey universe because I think seven seasons was about an average length peak for the prewar guys, and I didn't want to disadvantage them in my analysis, and 10 seasons for post-expansion players because I think ten was about an average peak for this period. But these estimates are debatable, and are at any rate, wholly artificial breaking points.

ted1971

08-23-2013 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
(Post 70427891)

I assume most of this thread will be devoted to pre-NHL players and non-NHL Europeans since they are the hardest to research.

But before I personally try to get into that, are there any NHL-era players who might be included on a top 80 list who aren't listed in posts 3-6 of this thread?

The one I can think of is Guy Carbonneau. If you're like me, you have Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clarke, and Guy Carbonneau as the three best defensive centers of all time in no particular order. Nighbor and Clarke easily make our list based on their two-way play (everyone knows Clarke, but I think there is a good case that Nighbor is the third best player to ever play the game before 1950 after Howie Morenz and Eddie Shore). But what to do about Carbonneau, whose offense isn't anywhere near those guys? I'd like to make room for one of the top 3 defensive centers of all time at least somewhere in my top 80; but have no idea to compare him to more offensively oriented players.

To Me, it's already a crime that Carbonneau isn't in the HHOF to begin with and He will have a very nice spot on My list.

ted1971

08-23-2013 10:09 AM

Are there any historical sites that deal in Soviet, Czech & other European countries? I've tried some Goggle searches and I've been having a very difficult time having any success.

Beau Knows

08-23-2013 12:36 PM

Is there a specific criteria that everyone should be using? We are looking mainly at career right? Or is peak or prime more important?

TheDevilMadeMe

08-23-2013 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ted1971
(Post 70452031)

Are there any historical sites that deal in Soviet, Czech & other European countries? I've tried some Goggle searches and I've been having a very difficult time having any success.

Consolidating the sticky threads on this board in the "historical resources mega-sticky thread" has let us link more threads at the top of the board - that one is linked there now.

The most commonly used English language site on Soviet players is www.chidlovski.com. Arthur Chidlovski specializes in Soviet players, but he also has some shorter profiles on some Czechoslovak players.

The blog GreatestHockeyLegends.com has some good profiles of international players, many of them written by "international hockey expert" Patrick Houda.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beau Knows
(Post 70456513)

Is there a specific criteria that everyone should be using? We are looking mainly at career right? Or is peak or prime more important?

I think we all differ on how we weigh peak vs prime vs career. Personally, I tend to value what I call "extended prime" the most, but other posters surely differ on this. Some look more heavily at peak, some at career value.