This is a discussion on Take all your rebuys at the beginning? within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Poker section; I play in a lot of live guarantee tourneys where in order to make their guarantee they let you have your 1 or 2 rebuys

I play in a lot of live guarantee tourneys where in order to make their guarantee they let you have your 1 or 2 rebuys anytime.

I notice a few players just automatically buy a double or a triple stack from the get go.

I almost never do, I'd prefer to try to win it and then I can always buy it later.

My thought process basically goes like this "I'm probably one of the better players at the table, it shouldn't be too hard for me to run it up so if I can acquire a $200 stack for the cost of only $100 I've essentially just "cashed" in this tournament for $100....via the logic of a penny saved is a penny earned.

If variance strikes, or I endure a massive cooler I'll lose fewer chips and still have an opportunity to start over fresh. Also, I'll have armed my opponent with fewer chips to use against my new fresh stack (to the victor goes the spoils of war....)

I know there must be other schools of thought out there, I'd like to hear them! What do you do? What do you recommend and why?

#2

4th November 2014, 9:10 AM

suby_rafael [1,039]

Poker at: pokerstars

Game: holdem,omaha

I think not rebuying right away can be a profitable strategy.

Without rebuying if you make it into the money then you get a nice pay day with limited investment. With this strategy i think you should look to play tight in the early stages as there are going to be wild players in the rebuy period who are going to gamble more.

We can play tight and hope to hook one of them fishes and then steadily look to build the stack until the rebuy period is over. Then we can addon if required and now players are not going to gamble as much as they were before.

Then i would still try to make the money and so not start playing loose. After making the money we can play a lot looser until we bust out or make a decent stack again after some run good and then play solid again and look to go super deep into the tournament.

#3

4th November 2014, 12:49 PM

RamdeeBen [7,746]

Online Poker at: pokerstars

Game: Mixed Games

It's massively -EV to not buy to the maximum assuming you feel you have an edge vs most of the players. It's even more so if the fish double/triple rebuy and you don't. If your thought process really is you feel you're one of the better players at the table and everyone else is rebuying then the logic doesn't make sense.

Sure you might run it up, but look at how much you're passing up on.

Say it's 6 handed and 5 of the players all have 3000x starting stack and all triple rebuy to 9000x stack and you're better than them all yet you decide to just not rebuy. Instead of potentially winning 9000x in a hand, you have to win 2 stacks worth from other stacks during the rebuy period to just get to even vs the bad players.

It's like the same logic with the cash games, if you're the best player at the table you NEED to have at the least everyone covered at the table or you're just passing up way to much on EV. Coolers or variance shouldn't effect your decision to rebuy either by the way.

The only time I'd advocate not rebuying is if either, you don't have an edge (which you shouldn't really be playing the game anyway) OR if you're shot taking and it's just terrible BR management to rebuy etc. Problem with these situations though is you shouldn't even be in the game to start with unless your'e some how free rolling the event by winning a ticket from somewhere or someone just decided to buy you in then you can just try run it up and try play it like a freeze out. Oh and also maybe one other circumstance where not rebuying is an option. Say you feel you have an edge in the actual tournament yet somehow manage to draw the worse table and are -EV vs everyone then not rebuying to the maximum seems correct until a table change.

#4

4th November 2014, 1:00 PM

youregoodmate [2,683]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLHE

Ditto PokerBen. Not buying for max is -EV.

#5

4th November 2014, 1:08 PM

Farseer [370]

Online Poker at: Entraction

Game: NLO8

I usually play rebuys that award larger add-on with same price than rebuys. Then it is usually very +EV either to late reg right into add-on (possible in many sites). This is especially true in 3x turbos (which still have 90 min latereg in Stars.fr) which give 10x add-ons, but also notable in regular/satellite rebuys which give 2x add-on.

In general regular rebuys last too long to be as profitable to play than other tournaments time/moneywise. Upside is that many players are there just playing maniac and throwing their chips away and rebuying after rebuying.

In live tournaments with shallow stacks I usually prefer to play with small stack for half price than 2x small stack for full price, especially with antes. And they also usually have much larger add-on than rebuy. If they're deepstacked with add-on chips being the same than rebuy and/or your table is full of fishes, then take rebuy in the beginning for sure.

#6

4th November 2014, 1:21 PM

hffjd2000 [2,329]

Poker at: fulltilt

Game: holdem

From the get go, I want to be the highest stack.

That would be a tremendous advantage in my part since at the beginning, Im already so deep.

Same with cash games live, you want to cover them all.

#7

4th November 2014, 2:48 PM

sunirico [907]

Online Poker at: pokerstars

Game: NLH

re: Poker & Take all your rebuys at the beginning?

The first time I played a rebuy tourney it dawned on me that you might just as well consider minimum bet to be equal to 1 times starting stack (1xSS) since every hand someone would shove. I decided to do an experiment on a play money rebuy tournament.

From the first hand I shoved and it costed me 3 buy-ins before I hit and was 3xSS strong. You could probably be more selective at this stage but I wanted to get in as early as possible. From here I didn't play every hand but played very loose, range with any Jack and above high card, using an opening bet of 1xSS.

This forces short stack opponents to go all in pre-flop and puts pressure on the few who have doubled up to commit to a large pot. Playing short handed for much larger side pots levels out the odds of your looser range and pays in itself for what u lose to a stronger hand winning the main pot.

When add-on period came I was chip lead 125xSS strong and could probably have sat out until final table but what is the fun in that. Least it to say I didn't buy the add-on but I agree with Ben, if I was shorter stacked I would add the extra chips to increase my score doubling up into larger stacks ahead.

Conclusion: Playing rebuy tourneys as tight or even tighter than 1 buy-in tournaments makes no sense to me. I believe we have to recognize the opportunities and exploit them to our advantage.

#8

4th November 2014, 5:02 PM

missjacki [2,347]

Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE, Big-O

Well it's not like everybody buys a double or triple stack and I don't. Maybe 1-2 players at each table buy the additional chips and everyone else waits.

#9

4th November 2014, 5:04 PM

missjacki [2,347]

Online Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE, Big-O

Also these are not $1 or $2 online tourneys. Usually $100 gets you 100bbs. And so paying $200 gets you 200bbs. So we're not "buying short" by buying a standard stack...

#10

4th November 2014, 5:15 PM

Slawa1986 [97]

Poker at: fulltilt.com

Game: HOLDEM

I do rebuy from the beginning of the tournament! This gives the advantage at the start of the tournament! You can put pressure on the opponent Bank!

#11

4th November 2014, 7:25 PM

missjacki [2,347]

Online Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE, Big-O

Originally Posted by youregoodmate

Ditto PokerBen. Not buying for max is -EV.

Ok, but why? I hear this a lot and for cash I understand it and accept it to be true...but I guess I'm just not ready to assume it's also true for tourneys just because it's true for cash...I want to delve into the topic and understand WHY before I invest in that as my new strategy.

Now, it may turn out to be true but I think it's healthy and wise to question assumptions.

For instance until 2007/2008 it was generally assumed to be true that tight aggressive was the way to play tournaments. Until some creative fresh minds starting questioning the old assumptions and landed on a new profitable strategy (LAG play). And started crushing tourneys and really revolutionized the game.

I'm not saying this is the same thing; but I suspect the dilemma of how big a tourney stack to buy is at the very least a more complex discussion than "always buy the max"

One possible consideration is your table draw. In a cash game you have complete control over where you sit, when you sit, if you sit, when you leave etc. in a tourney you do not; you sit where they put you and you move when they say so.

So for instance if I had a loose passive calling station on my left I'd want a big stack to fully extract. If I had a talented LAG on my left I might hold off because having position between 2 big stacks plays right into the LAG's style. Since he likes to take away lots of pots on the turn and river; and needs to have huge implied odds for when his weird hands bink hard and you decide to make a stand with TP or better...if effective stacks are smaller he can't have huge implied odds against me and I won't be facing as many tough river decisions...

#12

4th November 2014, 7:48 PM

intents09 [3,199]

Poker at: WPN

Game: NLHE/PLO8

I see both sides here. I'm going to attempt to keep it simpler and avoid the deeper thinking side of this. For me, it's fairly simple. If the tourney is micro and I know there are going to be 2x rebuys for every entry or more, I'm rebuying straight away and possibly more later if I go broke still in rebuy period. Until I've spent what I'm comfortable spending, which is typically just under or at a min cash worth at the absolute most, but usually do fine getting to addon on the rebuy from the start, or one double rebuy later on.

In the example you bring of 100$ for 100bb and 200$ for 200bb, I would see that it really doesn't matter here which way you go, and especially if there aren't loads of rebuys. Say 60 entries, what do 5 people rebuying at the start really have an advantage over?

I guess subconsciously I consider total chips in play, or an estimation of, and decide whether or not I feel a rebuy right away has any advantage over waiting or not having to at all. With less rebuying straight away, I'm less inclined to.

This is also not something I stick to, probably because there's no strict reason for me to rebuy or not straight away, as occasionally when less rebuy at the start and I am confident in my game but have some better players at my table, I may rebuy in this case but this is random and again, dependent on mood, table, etc.

#13

4th November 2014, 7:58 PM

dakota-xx [59,206]

Online Poker at: ACR/BCP

Game: NL Holdem

I am totally with Ben on this - I would never pass up the opportunity to have more chips. If only 1 or 2 people are doing it per table I would always want to be one of those 1 or 2 and have most of the table covered.

For the same reasons already stated - mostly by Ben.

#14

4th November 2014, 8:06 PM

duggs [9,109]

re: Poker & Take all your rebuys at the beginning?

100% agree with Ben.

#15

4th November 2014, 8:20 PM

HooDooKoo [985]

Online Poker at: Bovada

Game: hold'em

I agree 100% with PokerBen and youregoodmate and Debi and duggs and hffjd2000 and Slawa1986. Methinks we have a quorum.

I will agree to be open-minded IF you can sufficiently answer the following question: if you KNOW that buying-in for the table maximum maximizes EV at a cash table --- which is absolutely true --- then why wouldn't the same be true in a tournament setting? The same reasons that it's max EV in a cash game apply in a tournament setting.

-HooDooKoo

#16

4th November 2014, 8:20 PM

duggs [9,109]

Some quick thoughts but I'll come back later

Deeper stack bigger edge,

Deeper stack longer before you are short, edge is more persistent,

Bigger stack bigger Roi

Ou have already pointed out you are best at the table, so why not?

#17

4th November 2014, 9:35 PM

Caissa [38]

Online Poker at: BetOnline

Game: holdem

Originally Posted by HooDooKoo

I agree 100% with PokerBen and youregoodmate and Debi and duggs and hffjd2000 and Slawa1986. Methinks we have a quorum.

I will agree to be open-minded IF you can sufficiently answer the following question: if you KNOW that buying-in for the table maximum maximizes EV at a cash table --- which is absolutely true --- then why wouldn't the same be true in a tournament setting? The same reasons that it's max EV in a cash game apply in a tournament setting.

-HooDooKoo

It's not the same as a cash game. ICM. a 50/50 all-in shot on a 30BB give you an EV of 30BB. a 50/50 all in shot in a tournament gives you an EV of 30BB also, but that is cEV not $EV which we all know is different.

In a cash game EV for each pot is independent. A tournament is one big "pot" in its entirety. So in a tournament a 100% increase in chips does not equal a 100% increase in $EV. If fact, the earlier in the tournament it is the more this is true that's why we try to exercise pot control in early stages.

#18

4th November 2014, 10:21 PM

missjacki [2,347]

Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE, Big-O

I guess my thinking on this topic is hard to describe (maybe because it's illogical....?)

So if I have an edge doubling my stack doesn't double my edge. It less than doubles my edge, but it does double my risk.

So, if I can buy a standard stack and very reliably run it up to average with little risk (because remember a minority is buying double stacks) then I feel I have above average skills with an average stack and a below average investment.

The tournament value in dollars of "doubling up" early is not nearly as valuable in terms of payouts as being average stacked later.

So if you can double up "for free" early on then woohoo...but if you have to buy your double up I doubt if it doubles your average payout...

It's not a cash game where I can just top up after each hand if I catch a cooler; and it's not an unlimited rebuy where I can keep trying and trying to build a big stack; so it seems being mindful of variance and saving a bullet for only if I need it maybe wise...

Does any of this make sense to anybody else? I realize I may be wrong. But my gut tells me there's more to this and I don't want to just concede the point based on peer pressure. I'm not trying to argue out of stubbornness either...genuinely trying to understand the equity of buying chips in a tourney...

#19

4th November 2014, 10:25 PM

missjacki [2,347]

Online Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE, Big-O

In these tourneys typically there will be 90-120 players and about 40-60 rebuys by the end of the rebuy period... But maybe only 15-20 players actually buy a double stack from the start. The rest rebuy when they bust or get really short.

#20

4th November 2014, 10:27 PM

duggs [9,109]

well the situation you described is kinda moot,
A)you rebuy instantly, and lose half your stack because you cover when you get coloured

B) you get coloured and rebuy, stack is the same as above.

the value comes in being deeper. your edge is amplified in terms of chips. i would think the payoff takes care of itself. consider it a 300 tourney which people are allowed to buy in short. would you actively buy in short?

#21

4th November 2014, 10:28 PM

duggs [9,109]

re: Poker & Take all your rebuys at the beginning?

yay autocorrect

#22

4th November 2014, 10:30 PM

HooDooKoo [985]

Poker at: Bovada

Game: hold'em

Originally Posted by qtkat

It's not the same as a cash game. ICM. a 50/50 all-in shot on a 30BB give you an EV of 30BB. a 50/50 all in shot in a tournament gives you an EV of 30BB also, but that is cEV not $EV which we all know is different.

In a cash game EV for each pot is independent. A tournament is one big "pot" in its entirety. So in a tournament a 100% increase in chips does not equal a 100% increase in $EV. If fact, the earlier in the tournament it is the more this is true that's why we try to exercise pot control in early stages.

I'm well aware of ICM and how ICM theory creates differences in optimal tournament play versus optimal cash game play. Irrespective of those (generally minor) differences, the same principles apply to big stack situations in both tournaments and cash games:

1. The bigger stack allows you to put more "pressure" on your opponents, especially if you open card dead (because most of us are much more willing to steal and/or re-steal when we have a big stack);
2. Every extra chip in your stack increases the number of chips you can win in a given hand --- a huge edge if you're a good player; and
3. You can make an early mistake or suffer an early bad beat and survive --- potentially still with a bigger than average stack. This fact makes most players more willing to be aggressive, which is generally good for their game.

-HooDooKoo

#23

4th November 2014, 10:32 PM

jj20002 [778]

Online Poker at: pokerstars

Game: holdem

Originally Posted by duggs

Bigger stack bigger Roi

bigger stack bigger roi applies if the stack is free!

#24

4th November 2014, 10:36 PM

HooDooKoo [985]

Poker at: Bovada

Game: hold'em

Originally Posted by duggs

the value comes in being deeper. your edge is amplified in terms of chips. i would think the payoff takes care of itself. consider it a 300 tourney which people are allowed to buy in short. would you actively buy in short?

What duggs said! This is no different than cash game players buying-in for the table min, which is -EV unless you are a bad player.

missjacki believes she's, generally, one of the stronger players at her tables, so I'll take her word on that. In that situation --- as one of the best players at given table --- having a big stack is a big advantage.

-HooDooKoo

#25

4th November 2014, 10:40 PM

Everybodylovesdeuces [142]

Online Poker at: Nitrogen

Game: All

It would be worth mentioning (I play these same games with MJ) that even if we double and get a big stack early we are almost always taking the rebuy at the end of the rebuy period. So the real question is do you take it right away or at the end of the rebuy period? I usually lean to waiting until the end of the rebuy period unless something goes wrong early and I loose a bunch of chips (I'll usually wait until I loose over half a starting stack).

Also I'll mention MJ is always one of the top two players at any table in these tournaments.

#26

4th November 2014, 10:41 PM

missjacki [2,347]

Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE, Big-O

Originally Posted by duggs

well the situation you described is kinda moot,
A)you rebuy instantly, and lose half your stack because you cover when you get coloured

B) you get coloured and rebuy, stack is the same as above.

the value comes in being deeper. your edge is amplified in terms of chips. i would think the payoff takes care of itself. consider it a 300 tourney which people are allowed to buy in short. would you actively buy in short?

Ok that makes perfect sense. but coolers land on both sides and I'm just as likely to be the benefactor of a cooler and now have a double stack "for free" which is like an instant cash out of $100.

And as a good tourney player I'm usually only gonna cash 10-20% of the time so if I buy the extra chips then get massively lucky and have a huge stack I can't cash part of my stack in for cash on the spot (like in a cash game)

#27

4th November 2014, 10:48 PM

missjacki [2,347]

Online Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE, Big-O

Originally Posted by Everybodylovesdeuces

It would be worth mentioning (I play these same games with MJ) that even if we double and get a big stack early we are almost always taking the rebuy at the end of the rebuy period. So the real question is do you take it right away or at the end of the rebuy period? I usually lean to waiting until the end of the rebuy period unless something goes wrong early and I loose a bunch of chips (I'll usually wait until I loose over half a starting stack).

Also I'll mention MJ is always one of the top two players at any table in these tournaments.

This is the same strategy I apply and I'd say most of the players seem to follow suit. But I'm not assuming it's optimal...we might be diminishing our edge by doing this but do we diminish our ROI?

Also...it just occurred to me this whole topic may be a matter of style. My style is to hang around with an average stack for hours and hours and then come alive at the bubble and beyond. I feel consistently arriving at the bubble with a relevant stack is one of my biggest strengths and I feel I make good decisions at these stack sizes. Other players may be more well suited to the big stack bully style. It's never really been my style...even when I get a big stack I'm more likely to protect it and just open up my game a little bit and chip up steadily without taking big risks.

#28

4th November 2014, 10:51 PM

HooDooKoo [985]

Poker at: Bovada

Game: hold'em

re: Poker & Take all your rebuys at the beginning?

Originally Posted by missjacki

Ok that makes perfect sense. but coolers land on both sides and I'm just as likely to be the benefactor of a cooler and now have a double stack "for free" which is like an instant cash out of $100.

And as a good tourney player I'm usually only gonna cash 10-20% of the time so if I buy the extra chips then get massively lucky and gave a huge stack I can't cash part of my stack in for cash on the spot (like in a cash game)

If you're a good big stack player --- which I'm sure you are if you're generally one of the top two players at a given table --- then a big stack reduces the need for luck. You know that. So how do you not intuitively see the advantage of having the big stack?

-HooDooKoo

#29

4th November 2014, 10:56 PM

missjacki [2,347]

Online Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE, Big-O

Originally Posted by HooDooKoo

If you're a good big stack player --- which I'm sure you are if you're generally one of the top two players at a given table --- then a big stack reduces the need for luck. You know that. So how do you not intuitively see the advantage of having the big stack?

-HooDooKoo

I DO intuitively see the advantage of having a big stack.

I question whether purchasing that big stack increases my ROI more than my other option which is winning it.

#30

4th November 2014, 11:00 PM

missjacki [2,347]

Poker at: ACR

Game: NLHE, Big-O

Hmmmm....how to say what I'm trying to say...?

I guess....in most tournaments I usually end up with a big stack at some point anyways...but I still don't cash in most tournaments. Having a big stack at the END is when it matters...and you can't buy that...

#31

4th November 2014, 11:00 PM

Everybodylovesdeuces [142]

Online Poker at: Nitrogen

Game: All

Let's try it next time. I know I am a real jerk when I have a huge stack so I should probably take it right away.

#32

4th November 2014, 11:10 PM

HooDooKoo [985]

Poker at: Bovada

Game: hold'em

Originally Posted by missjacki

I do intuitively see the advantage of having a big stack.
I question whether purchasing that big stack increases my ROI more than my other option which is winning it.

I would rather guarantee myself a big stack from the get-go --- because I know how to wield it properly --- than rely on a combination of good cards and good play to earn me a big stack. Sometimes the cards and/or the "poker gods" don't cooperate --- especially if I end up in a seat from which stealing is tough. Guaranteeing that I'm a big stack to start is a big advantage for me, so I would pay for it --- every time. I think that's true for most thinking/successful players.

I have no idea how it would impact you and your play. You could try it and see how it goes for you. If it increases your edge, stick with it. If you don't feel it doesn't increase your edge, then go back to what you've been doing. My guess is that you'll that your play improves with the insta-big stack, at which point you'll decide it's definitely +EV --- but I've been wrong before.

Either way, best of luck.

-HooDooKoo

#33

5th November 2014, 3:13 AM

Steffel [34]

Online Poker at: BetOnline

Game: Holdem

I never rebuy right at the beginning either. There has only been a few times when it was just before the rebuy ended and I got knocked out i would rebuy twice just because the blinds were high enough I need more than just a couple BB.

#34

5th November 2014, 3:50 AM

hffjd2000 [2,329]

Poker at: fulltilt

Game: holdem

Originally Posted by missjacki

This is the same strategy I apply and I'd say most of the players seem to follow suit. But I'm not assuming it's optimal...we might be diminishing our edge by doing this but do we diminish our ROI?

Also...it just occurred to me this whole topic may be a matter of style. My style is to hang around with an average stack for hours and hours and then come alive at the bubble and beyond. I feel consistently arriving at the bubble with a relevant stack is one of my biggest strengths and I feel I make good decisions at these stack sizes. Other players may be more well suited to the big stack bully style. It's never really been my style...even when I get a big stack I'm more likely to protect it and just open up my game a little bit and chip up steadily without taking big risks.

With that, case close then.

#35

5th November 2014, 3:57 AM

jtholdm [129]

Online Poker at: ACR

Game: HOLDM OMAHA

re: Poker & Take all your rebuys at the beginning?

Here is my take on the re buy. I always first off buy in for the original amount and always do the addon regardless of how many chips I have, Unless I have the largest stack and no one can come near me even with an add on. Next I will rebuy after about 30-45 minutes depending how I am running. If I am getting bad beat after bad beat I will not re buy but if my cards are holding nicely and the donkey hands don't hold up than I will re-buy before the hour is up.