I've seen it here on these boards a few times, stated quite categorically, that we serve the PM and the Government.

This is not the case. Firstly, Bliar or any PM is NOT the President. In the US the President is the commander of the armed forces. In the UK the PM is 'only' the chief executive, if you like, of the Government, and the Government is the executive of Parliament. While the PM and the Government makes the decisions, everything has to be ratified by Parliament (which is why any Government needs a majority if they are to gt anything through Parliament and are able to do ANYTHING, without that majority the Government cannot legislate or make decisions as the opposition would win every vote) The Parliamentary system is what sets us apart from the US in a very big way, and is why Bliar has been having so much trouble of late; he thinks he's the President and has similiar powers to Dubya in the US. He doesn't and it's a growing affront to this country as a whole that he treats himself this way.

Our allegiance is sworn to the Queen as Head of State, and ultimately the people.

As soldiers sailors and airmen we owe NO allegiance to Bliar and the Government other than that which Parliament allows them. We are not tools of Bliar or the Government. This is why he was so desperate to get the bill through Parliament to send the troops; because he had NO power to do it himself. This is why he, allegedly [sic] lied and manipulated Parliament through various things we all know about, the 45 minutes claim, the dossier etc. etc. etc. He needed Parliaments assent and got it through deceit and manipulation and lies. This is why he must go, and this is why people were distraught to find him at the Memorial service.

How many banana republic tin pot dictators have used the army to keep and win power, and how do they do it? They do it by deceit and manipulation. Do you honestly think it is because the armed forces love them?

There are good reasons why we have this type of democracy. First and foremost, Bliar couldn't declare himself PM for life, and back it up with the armed forces. He can't start offensive wars for his own self gratification, but after Iraq you might disagree.

We could go on, but bottom line is that Bliar doesn't deserve any respect or allegiance more than would be given to any member of Parliament, and they only only get ANY allegiance as part of the WHOLE of Parliament.

Thats the job, it would be naive of us to think it would work any other way. The argument that at 17 or 18, we didnt understand fully what we were letting ourselves in for might hold some weight.

Question is, what does any Army do?

I think it reflects the political will of the govn of the day, simple as that. Just as HM The Queen basically has to accept the elected PM and his/her selected cabinet.

I joined when James Callaghan was PM, what a nosher, I was young and didnt give two flying fecks who told me what to do. As I got older and wiser I realised that it didnt matter who was in power, the Government always cuts the Armed forces first and uses it as it's 'doorman'. Thats what we do and have been doing since Henry VIII was lobbing his bits around.

Not having a pop at you shotgun.
I agree that, in my experience, this shower of 5hit is more of a bunch of spinless t wa ts than any I have served under. Fact of life.

Bring back Maggie, a leader, memorable and Id have given her a squirt just to say Id been there!

I understand what you're saying, but these weren't sentiments, these were the facts of what the armed forces are, and what their allegiances are and who they owe them to.

Sure the army has always been the Governments doormats, and if there are cuts the army is usually the first to suffer, but it still comes down to the same as above. Even the Chancellors budget, which people think he makes that decision and that's it, has to be voted on after he gives it by Parliament.

In the past the armed forces were just cannon fodder to do the bidding of whoever was in power, but that was in the days of the unwashed masses when Parliament was a club for the rich and every body pulled their forelocks.

Today we should hold our politicians to account and we as a nation are more intelligent and better informed than ever before, which is why Bliar had to lie and manipulate, and is now in trouble, or should be.

Too many people think the forces are there to do what Bliar and the likes of him say, but the facts are we aren't.

Question is, what does any Army do?

I think it reflects the political will of the govn of the day, simple as that. Just as HM The Queen basically has to accept the elected PM and his/her selected cabinet.

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But it doesn't reflect the politcal will of the Government, it reflects the will of Parliament. The political will of the Government has nothing to do with it except by virtue that they probably have a majority in Parliament. As an example of how wrong your statement is, if the opposition hadn't supported Bliar, the army wouldn't have gone into Iraq and Bliar would have resigned; he would have had to. Parliament would have won and the political will of the Government would have counted for nothing.

Not having a pop at you shotgun.

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I didn't think you were having a pop, but we need this type of debate.

Bring back Maggie, a leader, memorable and Id have given her a squirt just to say Id been there!