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Ok, fine. I roll a DarkWraith in the easiest possible setting, thus getting the best stuff is entirely possible at ridiculously low levels. Then I go and start invading people at the starter areas who might be at the highest difficulty setting, making their life impossible. That's not what I'd call fair. Which would send us back to either you do some weird stuff with difficulty when invading, or you split in separate servers based on difficulty, thus screwing the community up the pooch.
Or maybe I start offering help through co-op thus eliminating the challenge.

How about ..and this may be a radical idea I'm suggesting...just waiting to see what the developers do as I'm sure they're undoubtedly aware of potential complications and will mitigate them accordingly. I know it's entirely against the forum rules to have faith in developers but given they didn't really drop the ball between Demon Souls to Dark Souls maybe, just maybe it's time for a bit of wait and see before setting up the internet petition.

Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil
Tradition is the tyranny of dead men
Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi
Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....The Conclave beckons ... PM for details

No your issue was that some might take advantage of the difficulty level to advance themselves, then subsequently attack other less well geared players. But you gloss over the fact that this occurs in the previous games, which don't have a difficulty setting. So you have no point. This is an issue with the the multiplayer as a whole and it's matchmaking process, it has very little to do with multiple difficulty levels.

You have yet to give any real tangible reason why the addition of difficulty levels would fundamentally impact the game in any negative way, not to mention we have no idea how the developers will mitigate this, your just moaning already.

Also I am going to make an educated guess and suggest most people never even touched the online aspect of the game, so why the hell does it matter if people want to play through on an easier difficulty.

No your issue was that some might take advantage of the difficulty level to advance themselves, then subsequently attack other less well geared players.

Thanks for confirming that the point did indeed go well over your head.

My issue isn't with gear disparity. Yes, I'm very well aware, and suffered myself the gear disparity. Except that if everyone plays on the same difficulty, then the reason for the disparity is "they played or planned better than you".
With different difficulty levels, it boils down to "he farmed in easy mode to kill hard mode players".

Originally Posted by byteCrunch

Also I am going to make an educated guess and suggest most people never even touched the online aspect of the game, so why the hell does it matter if people want to play through on an easier difficulty.

So it's fine to screw over those of us who do play online to appease the ones that play exclusively offline (and thus miss a big chunk of what makes the games so excellent)? Also, educated guess? based on what?

However, I wouldn't mind an easy game mode ONLY IF it's restricted to offline only, or at most, messages and blood stains.

Originally Posted by Kadayi

How about ..and this may be a radical idea I'm suggesting...just waiting to see what the developers do as I'm sure they're undoubtedly aware of potential complications and will mitigate them accordingly. I know it's entirely against the forum rules to have faith in developers but given they didn't really drop the ball between Demon Souls to Dark Souls maybe, just maybe it's time for a bit of wait and see before setting up the internet petition.

I do have faith in the developers, it's Scamco I have little or no faith in.

Thanks for confirming that the point did indeed go well over your head.

My issue isn't with gear disparity. Yes, I'm very well aware, and suffered myself the gear disparity. Except that if everyone plays on the same difficulty, then the reason for the disparity is "they played or planned better than you".
With different difficulty levels, it boils down to "he farmed in easy mode to kill hard mode players".

So more players should be locked out because some no doubt small proportion of the player base might at some point be beaten by another player being cheap, uh yeah pretty much already covered that in my previous post, in short who cares.

Originally Posted by Rauten

So it's fine to screw over those of us who do play online to appease the ones that play exclusively offline (and thus miss a big chunk of what makes the games so excellent)?

But instead the developers should appease "those of use who do play online," oh I see, it would be fine if they appeased you, but not the other way around.

Originally Posted by Rauten

Also, educated guess? based on what?

Quite simple really, given the fact Dark Souls sold over a million copies, for the majority to have played online, that means over 500,000 of those copies were at some point played online. I am sorry that's ludicrously unlikely. I would be amazed if even 5-10% were ever played online for any extensive period.

So more players should be locked out because some no doubt small proportion of the player base might at some point be beaten by another player being cheap, uh yeah pretty much already covered that in my previous post, in short who cares.

And it still flies over your head. Amazing.

Originally Posted by byteCrunch

But instead the developers should appease "those of use who do play online," oh I see, it would be fine if they appeased you, but not the other way around.

As I said, I'm fine with an offline or messages&stains only easy mode. I don't mind them appeasing others, what I don't want is them screwing over what me and many others find so enjoyable about the game.

Originally Posted by byteCrunch

Quite simple really, given the fact Dark Souls sold over a million copies, for the majority to have played online, that means over 500,000 of those copies were at some point played online. I am sorry that's ludicrously unlikely. I would be amazed if even 5-10% were ever played online for any extensive period.

Considering that the game doesn't have an "Online Mode" and an "Offline Mode", it's not even as ludicrous as it may seem. Most PS3 users have it connected to the net, and the PC version has been mostly sold through Steam and Amazon sales, which means, once again, internet connection. You'd have to actively block the game to play offline. Most people simply remain in ghost form forever so they cannot invade or be invaded, while still having messages and blood stains, just like the "easy mode" I'm saying I wouldn't mind having.
360 version of course is probably mostly offline players because of Live Gold shenanigans.

I do have faith in the developers, it's Scamco I have little or no faith in.

If the best you can come up with as a counter is 'evil publisher' then you've pretty much lost.

I'd actually say DS MP was broken at present, because the plain truth of the matter is equipment plays zero part in determining character strength when it came to invasions which frankly lead to a lot of low level griefing. I actually quite like helping people out in places like undead berg so I phantom quite a bit and the amount of times some dude armed to the nines would invade and murderize everyone with overboard gear was just ridiculous. These aren't fights..they're massacres and the people involved do it precisely because they know they aren't going to get indicted because you can't get those until after you've rung the first bell. It's risk free griefing. I generally drop indictments for the newbies when I'm there in case they get invaded.

Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil
Tradition is the tyranny of dead men
Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi
Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....The Conclave beckons ... PM for details

If the best you can come up with as a counter is 'evil publisher' then you've pretty much lost.

It's not a counter. Think what you will, I do have faith in From, what I'm afraid of is Scamco making decisions because they smell money.

Originally Posted by Kadayi

These aren't fights..they're massacres and the people involved do it precisely because they know they aren't going to get indicted because you can't get those until after you've rung the first bell. It's risk free griefing. I generally drop indictments for the newbies when I'm there in case they get invaded.

1. Somehow work gear into the equation for summoning / invading, like Kadayi suggested.

2. Get rid of the masterkey so it's less easy to get very strong items very early in the game?

3. Give the items (crushed red orb?) that allow players to banish a phantom early in the game?

My point is not to fix DS (though some patching wouldn't go amiss..although if 1 was included then 2 & 3 aren't required measures), just pointing out that we shouldn't take the DS model as the one to measure DSII from because it is essentially a broken system.

Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil
Tradition is the tyranny of dead men
Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi
Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....The Conclave beckons ... PM for details

I know a lot of people would be against it, but I would like to play Dark Souls II with a friend without having to jump through 50,00 spike tipped hoops. Although there will be those who dislike it ruining the atmosphere, the times I've gotten into a game with someone I know have been a lot of fun. If I want to ruin the games atmosphere or not play it how it's 'supposed' to be played that should be up to me.

I know a lot of people would be against it, but I would like to play Dark Souls II with a friend without having to jump through 50,00 spike tipped hoops. Although there will be those who dislike it ruining the atmosphere, the times I've gotten into a game with someone I know have been a lot of fun. If I want to ruin the games atmosphere or not play it how it's 'supposed' to be played that should be up to me.

I think the main problem at the moment is GFWL lousy netcode, the amount of times you get 'summoning failed' is frankly absurd. I've done a fair bit of 'co-op' with various ppls and a good amount of time is wasted on simply getting connected. Would it make the game any less of an experience if you could directly connect to a friend Vs the rigmarole of 'I'll place the sign over by the ladder' 'can you see it?' 'try again now?' 'is it working?' 'No..oh someone else is summoning me it seems..let me help them out firstly'. I don't think so tbh. Ultimately they're still a phantom and they're still reliant on you to heal them to stay alive and what you've essentially cut out is technical issues time sink, and that's a good thing. Now I'm not saying get rid of public summoning (that's how you meet people after all), but an invite option wouldn't go amiss.

Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil
Tradition is the tyranny of dead men
Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi
Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....The Conclave beckons ... PM for details

A crueler person than me might say that Dark Souls is already 'mainstream' and too 'accessible' in a hope to show the relativity of the statement.

People just want scalar quantifications like 'difficulty'/'accessibility' cut off just below their level. They decide a level that's perfect for them personally (or adapt to a game that's closest to it), and then state it as the level it has to be.

There's a lot to be said for fixed difficulty. Whether a game is easy or hard, I want it to be consistent, uncompromising, well designed and balanced. If a particular game like that is easy for me, I'll get through it quickly but the experience will still be enjoyable (see: Portal, Braid). If it's hard for me, I'll improve and rise up to the challenge, and have the most fun of all. Even if I fail and keep failing, I can enjoy the attempts. Some of my favorite games are ones I'll never have the skill to fully beat (see: Ketsui ~Kizuna Jigoku Tachi~). If I thought a game was too far outside my skill range to be enjoyable, I'd still be happy that game exists for the people whom it's appropriate for; there are hundreds if not thousands of other good games for me to play instead.

I don't want playing the game to be a masturbatory exercise where I'm constantly lowering or raising the bar for myself; I want it to be an experience. I don't want the game to coddle me. I don't want to wonder whether I'm bored or randomly failing because the balancing for that particular difficulty level is crap and only fixable by switching to another level, or if it is because I'm failing to play correctly. I don't want to have to consider whether the designer counted on players to save creep or get lucky through a given section, and I'm wasting my time trying to figure out how to systematically defeat it.

Very few games are truly hard. While I haven't played DeS/DaS, they sound like they are in the reach of nearly all gamers who are willing to put in a bit of effort.

I think the main problem at the moment is GFWL lousy netcode, the amount of times you get 'summoning failed' is frankly absurd. I've done a fair bit of 'co-op' with various ppls and a good amount of time is wasted on simply getting connected. Would it make the game any less of an experience if you could directly connect to a friend Vs the rigmarole of 'I'll place the sign over by the ladder' 'can you see it?' 'try again now?' 'is it working?' 'No..oh someone else is summoning me it seems..let me help them out firstly'. I don't think so tbh. Ultimately they're still a phantom and they're still reliant on you to heal them to stay alive and what you've essentially cut out is technical issues time sink, and that's a good thing. Now I'm not saying get rid of public summoning (that's how you meet people after all), but an invite option wouldn't go amiss.

Yeah, I spent far too long standing wait for a friend to get summoned into my game, because it kept failing over and over. It would be far less immersion breaking to let me just invite them. No idea how much it's down to GFWL and to their servers or not, the consoles version was really bad for it too, whereas Demon Souls has much, much more reliable summoning.

Yeah, I spent far too long standing wait for a friend to get summoned into my game, because it kept failing over and over. It would be far less immersion breaking to let me just invite them. No idea how much it's down to GFWL and to their servers or not, the consoles version was really bad for it too, whereas Demon Souls has much, much more reliable summoning.

Just the 360 or the PS3 as well?

Originally Posted by victory

Very few games are truly hard. While I haven't played DeS/DaS, they sound like they are in the reach of nearly all gamers who are willing to put in a bit of effort.

The difficulty in Dark Souls is largely down to problem solving. Essentially any kind of mob can kill you, but it's also entirely possible with skill alone to defeat most mobs (though there are some that require particular accouterments). Although enemies do have hit points, the key is knowing/learning when to defend, when to evade, when to parry and when to strike and a lot of this comes down to getting to grips with their attack patterns.

How could you mitigate this? Well reducing enemy hit points would certainly be one way, reducing attack strategies would be another. An alternative though is simply to marginally increase player damage and speed/stamina recovery. Even upping a players movement/stamina recovery and damage by as little as 10% would massively alter the difficulty of the game for them. Enough to make life easier for them, but not enough to dramatically alter the nature of the game especially as it's an internalized change Vs an externalized one.

Last edited by Kadayi; 09-12-2012 at 02:57 PM.

Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil
Tradition is the tyranny of dead men
Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi
Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....The Conclave beckons ... PM for details

As I remember both consoles had issues due to the new way they handled servers (instead of having one big one for your region there were different 'blades' or something). It got better on both, but it's still similar to what you see on PC these days. I haven't used XBL in a while except to watch tv, but I never had such a problem connecting with people as I did on that game, so I would guess it's definitely something that From can sort out.

Plus, how would you balance different difficulty settings for the multiplayer? Either you do some really weird on-the-fly difficulty retuning, or you screw up the community by splitting it into different servers for different difficulties.

Doesn't the game already have multiple difficulties via NG+ ? So just balance it the same way, just starting the base game at a lower level and letting people skip it if they want.

Doesn't the game already have multiple difficulties via NG+ ? So just balance it the same way, just starting the base game at a lower level and letting people skip it if they want.

I played through Dark Souls in full a couple of weeks ago and the community is already getting stretched thin. In the whole game I only summoned two phantoms for help, got summoned myself once, and got invaded twice. Can't help but thing adding in different difficulty tiers would exacerbate it even more.

I played through Dark Souls in full a couple of weeks ago and the community is already getting stretched thin. In the whole game I only summoned two phantoms for help, got summoned myself once, and got invaded twice. Can't help but thing adding in different difficulty tiers would exacerbate it even more.

I expect that when the next Christmas Steam sale hits and DS is invariably put on offer at 50-75% off they'll be a sudden spike in activity again.

Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil
Tradition is the tyranny of dead men
Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi
Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....The Conclave beckons ... PM for details

Doesn't the game already have multiple difficulties via NG+ ? So just balance it the same way, just starting the base game at a lower level and letting people skip it if they want.

Yes and no. Summoning/Invasion is based around levels. If you're in a similar level range, and in the same area, regardless of NG or NG+, it can work. However, most online-active people tend to stay in NG at specific level ranges.