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I've come to the conclusion that my problem with Incineroar is not that it's another anthro or another starter, but because its moveset could be perfectly transferred to a human character. Other Pokemon would have issues getting their moveset transferred to a human, such as their body shape, the use of tail attacks, or how Lucario's legs work. Perhaps this is the real reason why it got chosen over other Alolan starters or actual Alolan mascots so late in development-their bodies are less human (without working like Kirby or Jigglypuff's) and thus would need more work.

This can mean all sorts of things and brings up so many more questions. I mean, this technically 100% confirms that you can be a playable character and spirit, and I might have been right about Nintendo wanting to promote let's go more for several reasons. Even though lycanroc isn't a spirit so that wasn't anything to worry about in the first place, this does mean a lot of characters are possibly back on the table now.

Smash Journeyman

This can mean all sorts of things and brings up so many more questions. I mean, this technically 100% confirms that you can be a playable character and spirit, and I might have been right about Nintendo wanting to promote let's go more for several reasons. Even though lycanroc isn't a spirit so that wasn't anything to worry about in the first place, this does mean a lot of characters are possibly back on the table now.

I would just mod Lycanroc in myself. I will learn how to code and mod him in, with Unique Animations and the Challenger Approching moveset

But, I think now that Meltan has a possible shot for DLC. Lycanroc though is still in a rough spot.
The datamined list didn't include Adaline, Ana or Porky, so you know how it is, but now that Spirits don't deconfirm Characters.

Well, we might not make it this time.......
And maybe never again......

But I won't give up our dream, I will keep hoping till the very end of DLC.

At the very least, it sounds like we'll get new Spirits through updates. I also have a feeling we'll get a few free modes and extra features later on, but I have no idea what those could be. Wouldn't mind more bosses to flesh out the current selection though.

...

Actually, now that I think about it, what if additional bosses were planned to be added via "Splatoon updates"? That would explain why Porky is mysteriously missing.

Character Concept Creator

I've come to the conclusion that my problem with Incineroar is not that it's another anthro or another starter, but because its moveset could be perfectly transferred to a human character. Other Pokemon would have issues getting their moveset transferred to a human, such as their body shape, the use of tail attacks, or how Lucario's legs work. Perhaps this is the real reason why it got chosen over other Alolan starters or actual Alolan mascots so late in development-their bodies are less human (without working like Kirby or Jigglypuff's) and thus would need more work.

At the very least, it shows us what their plans for "promoting" other games are so far. Perhaps the DLC newcomers won't be shallow advertising tools the way half the fanbase has arbitrarily decided must be happening?

Nah...

Snark aside, adding in a few new spirits every now and then to hype up a recent or upcoming release seems pretty reasonable. It's small and free and unintrusive. Besides, what gacha can go without seasonal alts of its most popular characters?

At the very least, it sounds like we'll get new Spirits through updates. I also have a feeling we'll get a few free modes and extra features later on, but I have no idea what those could be. Wouldn't mind more bosses to flesh out the current selection though.

...

Actually, now that I think about it, what if additional bosses were planned to be added via "Splatoon updates"? That would explain why Porky is mysteriously missing.

I think Splatoon-style updates are looking increasingly likely, and may very well explain why certain bad guys depicted in the game are nowhere to be found. New modes are a distinct possibility as well...

...Especially considering there are unused Home Run Contest music tracks, and apparently unused code for Sandbag that looks similar to Sandbag's code in Melee...

Smash Journeyman

At the very least, it shows us what their plans for "promoting" other games are so far. Perhaps the DLC newcomers won't be shallow advertising tools the way half the fanbase has arbitrarily decided must be happening?

Nah...

Snark aside, adding in a few new spirits every now and then to hype up a recent or upcoming release seems pretty reasonable. It's small and free and unintrusive. Besides, what gacha can go without seasonal alts of its most popular characters?

Well, if you're right. Then we may not be getting a three house's character. Hey, that means that ballot picks that didn't cone the first go round (lookin at you Geno and Banjo), have the possibility to come around this time (and I know you want Geno ). And it's really cool.

Smash Apprentice

Well, if you're right. Then we may not be getting a three house's character. Hey, that means that ballot picks that didn't cone the first go round (lookin at you Geno and Banjo), have the possibility to come around this time (and I know you want Geno ). And it's really cool.

Of course as long as any of those ballot characters are on the list Nintendo made for Sakurai, it's a great prospect to think about.
But i'm still skeptical about not having at least 1 promo character as dlc, they have to do that for their biggest game next year. And another fire emblen rep is very posible given it's rise in popularity in the last years, but ultimately it all depends on the list made by nintendo and sakurai's 5 picks from said list. It's all up in the air right now.

Smash Ace

Hey guys, this Thursday Lycanroc is up in the Rate the Character thread. I think this could be a good opportunity to share our personal reasons for supporting Lycanroc in a respectful way and potentially creating some new supporters.

Character Concept Creator

Hey guys, this Thursday Lycanroc is up in the Rate the Character thread. I think this could be a good opportunity to share our personal reasons for supporting Lycanroc in a respectful way and potentially creating some new supporters.

Smash Champion

Hm. I suppose the best option would be a one-two punch of a minor stat buff (~20 points total, like the ones we saw a handful of lines get for Gen 7) and a few more coverage moves. Exactly which ones would work best...well, I'd leave that up to someone with more competitive experience.

Those would help out Midday and Dusk, at least. Midnight...would be more difficult to buff, stuck with an awkward statline and defensive tools with a typing that actually isn't very good defensively against other players.

I would agree for Midday and Dusk. They’re pretty straight forward on buffing them.

However, the thing with Midnight is that it’s stat line isn’t suitable for what Game Freak was originally going for. For instance, they could increase his health a bit and give a buff to his Defense and Special Defense stats to allow Midnight to survive a couple of more turns and deal a lot of damage back.

I may get some flak for this but a certain YouTuber actually did a take on a Lycanroc (although this was a bit prior to Dusk’s revealed Stats) revamp. And these were the points that were brought up in terms of what Midnight needs to be more viable.

There were also a couple of moves for all the Lycanrocs that were suggested to improve them. Drill Run and Drain Punch (for Midnight) were two moves that can up the Lycanroc game a lot, but there are a lot of others moves like Foul Play, Iron Defense, Superpower and some others. Although, I don’t know if Lycanroc was given more moves in USUM.

Anyways, it seemed that GameFreak put a lot of effort into Lycanroc, but it seems that it they needed to learn a thing or two. Hopefully the Lycanroc trio gets some changes and are given more moves to be more viable.

Hey guys, this Thursday Lycanroc is up in the Rate the Character thread. I think this could be a good opportunity to share our personal reasons for supporting Lycanroc in a respectful way and potentially creating some new supporters.

I was surprised when I first saw Lycanroc up since it seemed that Lycanroc had enough nominations from others to be apart of the first batch. Either way, I’m eager to see what people think of Lycanroc right now.

I do agree, I think this is our chance to show our support for Lycanroc, and also try to get some others on our side and show why Lycanroc can be interesting and fun character for them.

Smash Cadet

Just left my response too, did my best to format the post in a professional way. Today's the last day before the game is out and while I'm not as hyped for it as I originally was I'm still looking forward to it. Spending time here before release was honestly a great experience for me, I'm glad to have joined in on the support.

In all honesty, although it’s not that big, I still think Lycanroc has a decent shot. For instance, the idea of a “Lycanroc DLC Pack” is still open, with the lack of a S/M stage and music from US and UM are also lacking with some even from the originals, a Lycanroc pack wouldn’t feel redundant to bring in for DLC.

There’s also the fact that with Rex and Spring Man out of the running for being seemingly too early, the same could be possible for Gen 8 (if it is even a Gen 8). Since both came out around 2017, it means that Gen 8 (if in fact real) would only have about 1 year into development. It would be way too early, even from Pokemon standards to get a character at that point. However, 2017 was the year that Lycanroc began it’s full prime. It’s Dusk form has been revealed and Lycanroc was now pioneering Gen 7 with a prominence in the anime, a role in Pokémon “I Choose You” with the Midnight Form, merchandise, and popularity.

In fact, Lycanroc was used to promote US and UM recently in the summer despite Let’s Go Pikachu and Eevee already being revealed in the public, meaning that Lycanroc is still a selling point and Nintendo still having their eyes on it. But that isn’t the only thing Lycanroc has going for it.

Moveset potential is another thing. Lycanroc still has a lot to diversify itself from the roster, with obvious stuff having a different thematic moveset being around geokenisis and utilizing many Rock Type moves like Stone Edge, Rock Climb, Stealth Rock, and the more recent signature Accelerock, and some of the forms featuring a quadruped build, that albeit maybe harder to create, is still feasible in Sakurai’s range. But there’s stuff even deeper that make Lycanroc more interesting for players, like a potential mechanic that switched between the different forms, or a boost that Dusk gets by triggering into it’s powers from Midnight.

Lycanroc may have a lot of competition with other potential newcomers, but seeing how Lycanroc is still marketed and a popular Gen 7 Pokémon that could sell, along with a potential unique moveset to derive from that can bring something enticing for players. I say, Lycanroc still has some ground to stand on and isn’t out yet.

Want: 100%
It’s one of my favorites, or possibly my favorite Pokémon. Their sleeker simpler designs, the lore behind them, and just a love for wolves and similar candids are what made me support them, and their potential new play style is something that keeps me on board. There may be some obstacles ahead of us, but I’m still willing to persevere and support the Wolf trio.

Also, I’m sending this pretty late, and am aware of Joker now, but I still stand by my points. Plz let this count TCT~Phantom
, I couldn’t send it until now.

Do you guys have any thoughts you want to share about Lycanroc’s chances?

Lycanroc could be an unexpected character, a lot of people aren’t seeing into Lycanroc after all.

But seriously, I wouldn’t necessarily call Lycanroc dead. There are still points in favor of Lycanroc after all and he could still work as an a very unique and interesting newcomer. I say, let’s not stop all of a sudden.

Wait, what exactly did Reggie say? I was out picking up my copy of Ultimate and I haven't seen the exact statement anywhere. I've seen some knee-jerk assumptions claiming he said every DLC character will come from a new franchise, but it seems like it was extrapolated and not necessarily what he actually said?

EDIT: I think I've heard he said they're "characters who are new to the series"? That'd just mean characters who are new to Smash, correct? We already knew all of DLC will be newcomers, for obvious reasons.

Smash Apprentice

Wait, what exactly did Reggie say? I was out picking up my copy of Ultimate and I haven't seen the exact statement anywhere. I've seen some knee-jerk assumptions claiming he said every DLC character will come from a new franchise, but it seems like it was extrapolated and not necessarily what he actually said?

EDIT: I think I've heard he said they're "characters who are new to the series"? That'd just mean new to Smash, correct? We already knew all of DLC will be newcomers, for obvious reasons.

What i was trying to say is that they're characters people wouldn't expect for smash, and at first it felt to me that a pokemon made too much sense for that statement. After relaxing a bit, i feel like i've might have been spontaneous, so apologies.
I still feel that characters like Sora and Banjo now have a bigger chance.

Smash Lord

Wait, what exactly did Reggie say? I was out picking up my copy of Ultimate and I haven't seen the exact statement anywhere. I've seen some knee-jerk assumptions claiming he said every DLC character will come from a new franchise, but it seems like it was extrapolated and not necessarily what he actually said?

EDIT: I think I've heard he said they're "characters who are new to the series"? That'd just mean characters who are new to Smash, correct? We already knew all of DLC will be newcomers, for obvious reasons.

Smash Master

You guys are looking way too hard at Reggie's statement. I think the point he was trying to get across is that all of these DLC characters will be newcomers - no vets. And as far as the DLC characters being a suprise, that's a generic claim that you could apply to just about anyone. I don't think it necessarily hurts whoever the fanbase considers to be "obvious" at the time.

Ultimately, after sleeping yesterday, i do still think we might have a bit more trouble getting in, mainly because there's likely more competition now more than ever. And who knows if Sakurai would feel like there's too many pokemon characters, just like when he added corrin.

Smash Lord

Ultimately, after sleeping yesterday, i do still think we might have a bit more trouble getting in, mainly because there's likely more competition now more than ever. And who knows if Sakurai would feel like there's too many pokemon characters, just like when he added corrin.

Pokemon is not in the same situation as Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem is oversaturated with clones (of the 7 FE Emblem characters, 3 of them are based on another fighter) while Pokemon has only 1 semi-clone and 10 total fighters (counting Pokemon Trainer as 3 separate fighters).

Smash Lord

Pokemon is not in the same situation as Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem is oversaturated with clones (of the 7 FE Emblem characters, 3 of them are based on another fighter) while Pokemon has only 1 semi-clone and 10 total fighters (counting Pokemon Trainer as 3 separate fighters).

I don't think Sakurai thought there might be too much FE because clones, but rather how he had already added 2 FE newcomers and brought back 1 FE veteran before Corrin was added. In this case, he might think there's too much Pokemon because he brought back all the cut veterans including Pokemon ones plus one newcomer. Like I said in RTC, Lycanroc's best bet is if Sakurai had to compromise for Incineroar.

Smash Lord

I don't think Sakurai thought there might be too much FE because clones, but rather how he had already added 2 FE newcomers and brought back 1 FE veteran before Corrin was added. In this case, he might think there's too much Pokemon because he brought back all the cut veterans including Pokemon ones plus one newcomer. Like I said in RTC, Lycanroc's best bet is if Sakurai had to compromise for Incineroar.

Smash Ace

While I'm not the biggest fan of Joker's inclusion (mainly third party fatigue, feeling he's not a big enough name to justify inclusion, and a lack of a relationship with Nintendo), it does give us one fairly good sign: games from 2017 are not too new to justify a roster inclusion. Between Sakurai's awkward answer on both a Xenoblade 2 and ARMS character, I had a slight fear that Dusk Lycanroc may not be eligible for DLC given Ultra Sun/Moon's 2017 release, but this doesn't seem to be an issue anymore.

Also, Crash Team Racing getting a remake is doing a good job at nulling any disappointment from Joker.

Smash Journeyman

While I'm not the biggest fan of Joker's inclusion (mainly third party fatigue, feeling he's not a big enough name to justify inclusion, and a lack of a relationship with Nintendo), it does give us one fairly good sign: games from 2017 are not too new to justify a roster inclusion. Between Sakurai's awkward answer on both a Xenoblade 2 and ARMS character, I had a slight fear that Dusk Lycanroc may not be eligible for DLC given Ultra Sun/Moon's 2017 release, but this doesn't seem to be an issue anymore.

The main difference I see between Joker and is that Cloud is a proven character who has stood the test of time. Cloud makes sense as a Final Fantasy pick because, even 20 years after its release, it's still the most popular game in the series. Compare with Joker, who is from a game that is a little less than 2 years old. We don't know if Persona 5 will really standout from the rest of the Shin Megami Tensei lineage in 10-15 years. It's kinda like choosing Noctis to represent Final Fantasy or Lumine to represent Dragon Quest, they've got relevancy but we have no idea if that relevancy will translate into long term popularity or importance. In my opinion, if they wanted a Shin Megami Tensei/Persona character, someone with a bit more of legacy such as Jack Frost or the Persona 4 protagonist (which is the most popular one to my understanding) would have been a better choice.

Likewise, I'm not entirely sure if Shin Megami Tensei truly has the same legacy as the rest of 3rd party offerings. It's been going for awhile, but it's still largely been a niche thing since its inception, only gaining international notoriety in the last few years. Compare with the other 3rd parties, who are from series with huge weight and a demonstrable impact on mainstream gaming as a whole. The exception is , but she's basically Nintendo's adopted daughter so she gets a free pass.

Smash Journeyman

Likewise, I'm not entirely sure if Shin Megami Tensei truly has the same legacy as the rest of 3rd party offerings. It's been going for awhile, but it's still largely been a niche thing since its inception, only gaining international notoriety in the last few years. Compare with the other 3rd parties, who are from series with huge weight and a demonstrable impact on

I won't deny that Shin Megami Tensei is popular, but what I'm concerned about is whether or not popularity is enough. The other series in Smash are also popular, but they are also important games that drastically changed the direct of the industry: basically redefined the entire art of storytelling in video games, popularized the use of cinematic techniques in games, and codified the stealth genre. singlehandedly proved that a third party could stand up to the behemoth that was Nintendo and thusly created plurality within the games industry. and were the jumping point of two major arcade developers to home consoles, giving the idea of home gaming a much greater sense of legitimacy. got people that weren't 12 year old boys into arcades, introduced more abstract ideas on what exactly could be a video game, and has a pop culture legacy that goes beyond video games as a whole. basically invented an entire genre and extended the life of the dying arcade industry. invented and codified much of the RPG, a massive genre.

Compare with Shin Megami Tensei, which does have some noteworthy achievements (getting Atlus on the map is a big one) but does not have the sheer legacy that the other third parties in Smash carry. This isn't a bad thing, but the problem is when this becomes precedent for future DLC. Playstation All-Stars proved that an over-reliance on third parties generally leads to diminishing returns (as the game struggles to find third parties that can measure up to its initial wave) and the game losing a sense of identity, as the common thematic thread that connects the various series becomes thinner and thinner. Obviously, this kind of thing doesn't happen overnight, but the pessimist in me can't help but see the seeds of such a thing happening in Joker's reveal.

Smash Lord

I won't deny that Shin Megami Tensei is popular, but what I'm concerned about is whether or not popularity is enough. The other series in Smash are also popular, but they are also important games that drastically changed the direct of the industry: basically redefined the entire art of storytelling in video games, popularized the use of cinematic techniques in games, and codified the stealth genre. singlehandedly proved that a third party could stand up to the behemoth that was Nintendo and thusly created plurality within the games industry. and were the jumping point of two major arcade developers to home consoles, giving the idea of home gaming a much greater sense of legitimacy. got people that weren't 12 year old boys into arcades, introduced more abstract ideas on what exactly could be a video game, and has a pop culture legacy that goes beyond video games as a whole. basically invented an entire genre and extended the life of the dying arcade industry. invented and codified much of the RPG, a massive genre.

Compare with Shin Megami Tensei, which does have some noteworthy achievements (getting Atlus on the map is a big one) but does not have the sheer legacy that the other third parties in Smash carry. This isn't a bad thing, but the problem is when this becomes precedent for future DLC. Playstation All-Stars proved that an over-reliance on third parties generally leads to diminishing returns (as the game struggles to find third parties that can measure up to its initial wave) and the game losing a sense of identity, as the common thematic thread that connects the various series becomes thinner and thinner. Obviously, this kind of thing doesn't happen overnight, but the pessimist in me can't help but see the seeds of such a thing happening in Joker's reveal.

That's true, but also keep in mind that Playstation All-Stars only had 24 characters, so a little over 20% of the roster consisted of 3rd parties. Likewise, most series only got one rep (only Infamous and God of War got 2, and even then God of War's second character was DLC), so there wasn't a ton of divide between treatment of the first and third party characters. These two factors led to a bit of an identity crisis, where a game that was essentially marketed as a "Sony All-Star Game" relied on third parties as a backbone to its atmosphere.

Smash Lord

That's true, but also keep in mind that Playstation All-Stars only had 24 characters, so a little over 20% of the roster consisted of 3rd parties. Likewise, most series only got one rep (only Infamous and God of War got 2, and even then God of War's second character was DLC), so there wasn't a ton of divide between treatment of the first and third party characters. These two factors led to a bit of an identity crisis, where a game that was essentially marketed as a "Sony All-Star Game" relied on third parties as a backbone to its atmosphere.

To be fair though, we also need to keep in mind that, with the exception of Heihachi, every other guest in PSASBR was chosen purely for marketing, not for their legacy. This compounded on the existing issue of a first party line up that felt lackluster to begin with. Sony has a lot of great games, but very few have as much star power as most other established franchises, something Nintendo and associated third parties (SEGA, Capcom, etc.) have in spades.

Sony in a way, had no choice but to rely on third parties as backbone because that's what they're known for. A lot of time when people think of iconic PlayStation games, the games aren't Sony's but third parties who chose to be Sony exclusive for a particular game/series/era.

PSASBR's roster was definitely a mixed bag, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's failure proves diminishing returns on third parties given it's poor choice of said 3rd parties and the many other problems the game had.

That said, hype as I am for Joker, I do agree on the point that it feels like he's yet to stand the test of time. I'm happy he's here, but I do understand why some are either a little annoyed or left scratching their heads given he's still a fairly new character from a game that hasn't been out for very long. However in this case, if previous Persona games are anything to go by, I think it's safe to assume the game will stand said test of time.

Of course there's the argument that they could have chosen a previous Protag from 3 or 4 or from an SMT game, and there's no denying that his current popularity and relevance do play a part, but I think it's a good sign that nearly 2 years later people are still hyped about P5. People are really passionate about the series, and I don't think it'll be any different for 5. If anything the sheer widespread positive reception from a still growing audience goes to show it's still got some years ahead of it and like past games in the series will retain a dedicated base built of the old fans and all the new players 5 managed to bring in.

Smash Apprentice

I was never bothered by certain characters getting in for popularity alone (Shulk, Rosalina, Chrom, Ridley, etc.), but i can see why people feel like they're pushing it with Joker. But the smash roster is a mix of unique characters, popular characters and iconic characters (and a mix of the three), so it doesn't bother me at all. And i highly doubt all the dlc will be current popular characters from 3rd parties, but with Reggie's statement it sounds like there could be more 3rd parties than we think. Banjo, Geno & Sora come to mind, maybe even Rayman and Crash.