Kahabut:Tunacrab: Elective genital mutilation does not make you the other sex.

We live in a sick society.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^SO FARKING MUCH THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow, lots of hate for the transgendered community. The Fark Libertarian tilt doesn't extend to the people that want to get their naughty bits changed? Much like ghey people, I really don't give two craps what an adult wants to do with his/her naughty parts as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Yes, it's icky and not for me. So is black licorice and blood pudding. I'm not, however, going to condemn society as a whole because we allow people freedom.

It's actually been found that a majority of trans* people seem to have a brain closer in structure to the gender that they're transitioning to. Plus there's intersex (a bit of both sexes) conditions that can lead to an almost, but not quite boy or girl.

That's the case with yours truly; I spent the years during and post-puberty really, really wishing I'd quit becoming so masculine; after a medical examination it was found that I have such a condition.. and after speaking with several qualified counselors, I was referred to an endocrinologist.

Cue a formerly confused, unhappy person becoming more active, getting involved, and overall stepping out of their shell for the first time ever.

But hey, don't let someone with first-hand knowledge change your oh-so-righteous opinion of that subject, which I gather you know little about.

LordBeavis:I think that this isn't a step that most people do without much thought. It seems like these two, along with most other transgendered people's stories, involve years of emotional hardship before they make the decision. So, I don't judge them and view their actions of mutilating their bodies as their choice which wasn't undertaken lightly. It's more humane than forcing them to live what they feel is a charade for their entire lives.

One of my friends came out as transgender earlier this year and underwent surgery. I'll never know what exactly went through her mind when she made those decisions, or for the 28 years prior that she'd lived as a man, but you're right that it's not something that people undergo lightly.

A bit of advice to everyone in the thread who is horrified that someone might want to "cut off their own testicles": There is no way to crawl into another person's mind and know exactly what they think and feel, and thus there's no way to really understand what a gay person or a transgender person goes through (nor is it possible for them to really understand what it's like to be straight and/or cisgendered). The best thing to do is to accept that you'll never understand it and stop worrying. And if someone comes out to you as gay or transgender, keep in mind that they're still the same person as before.

How does 'born that way' reconcile with justifying a sex change operation? If you are supposed to accept the way you were born, otherwise you end up living a lie. . .Isn't this manufacturing the lie same as a homosexual man or woman(CIS) who pretend to be hetero getting married to an opposite sex(CIS again)person? Even if they are not CIS, how does accepting the way you are born work out to a sex change operation, because if you were born with male physiology and self identify as female or trans or pan or whatever. . .getting an operation which is by it's very nature anti-accepting of how you were born . . .

I see a lot of "Manley men" have come out to tell everyone something about gender. Of course it seems obvious if they couldn't find their penis they wouldn't know if they were a boy or a girl and as for men heh, seems obvious they aren't.

jeffdo1:As a MtF trans* person, if I were to get the operation.. how would I be mutilating myself instead of correcting a mistake? I would be fine with gender reassignment if it actually was gender reassignment, unfortunately we aren't and may never be at the stage where it really is that. It's sort of putting on a costume and pretending to be something you are not? It's unfortunate and heart breaking but they lied when they said anyone could be whatever they wanted to be.

Let me quote the Dani Bunten wiki page.

After a third failed marriage, Bunten, who had until then been living as male, transitioned to living as a woman. Bunten underwent sex reassignment surgery in November 1992 and afterwards kept a lower profile in the games industry. Bunten later regretted having surgery, finding that for her, the drawbacks of surgical transition outweighed the benefits, and wishing she had considered alternative approaches.She advised others considering a sex change not to proceed unless there was no alternative, and warned them of the cost, saying "Being my 'real self' could have included having a penis and including more femininity in whatever forms made sense. I didn't know that until too late and now I have to make the best of the life I've stumbled into. I just wish I would have tried more options before I jumped off the precipice.

My feelings on this do not apply to anyone who is not functional due to medical issues etc.

Prophet of Loss:Tunacrab: LordBeavis: Kahabut: Tunacrab: Elective genital mutilation does not make you the other sex.

We live in a sick society.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^SO FARKING MUCH THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow, lots of hate for the transgendered community. The Fark Libertarian tilt doesn't extend to the people that want to get their naughty bits changed? Much like ghey people, I really don't give two craps what an adult wants to do with his/her naughty parts as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Yes, it's icky and not for me. So is black licorice and blood pudding. I'm not, however, going to condemn society as a whole because we allow people freedom.

It isn't hate... more like sadness at it's seemingly unquestioned acceptance. I'm not contending it should be illegal. If people want to do this to themselves, so be it... but it doesn't change the fact that it is a sick act.

People modify their bodies all the time for various reasons. Are tattoos sick? How about piercings? Implants?

Just because you can choose language that makes two things tangentially similar doesn't make them in any way equivalent; by that logic the fact that I eat hamburgers all the time means I should have no qualms about devouring a dead baby.

wildcardjack:If someone thinks they need to get thinner to extent they weigh everything that comes in or out of their body we call it body dysmorphic disorder. If someone thinks they need to mutilate their body to achieve the appearance of the other gender we call it their choice. Where does dysmorphia end and choice begin?

If someone thinks they need to get thinner to extent they weigh everything that comes in or out of their body we call it body dysmorphic disorder. If someone thinks they need to mutilate their body to achieve the appearance of the other gender we call it their choice. Where does dysmorphia end and choice begin?

Yeah, it's really sick to feel you're the wrong gender. We should lock all those people up and medicate them so heavily all they can do is sit in a chair and drool. Clearly, that's the right thing to do. :P

George Babbitt:tinfoil-hat maggie: I see a lot of "Manley men" have come out to tell everyone something about gender. Of course it seems obvious if they couldn't find their penis they wouldn't know if they were a boy or a girl and as for men heh, seems obvious they aren't.

Loaf's Tray:Prophet of Loss: Tunacrab: LordBeavis: Kahabut: Tunacrab: Elective genital mutilation does not make you the other sex.

We live in a sick society.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^SO FARKING MUCH THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow, lots of hate for the transgendered community. The Fark Libertarian tilt doesn't extend to the people that want to get their naughty bits changed? Much like ghey people, I really don't give two craps what an adult wants to do with his/her naughty parts as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Yes, it's icky and not for me. So is black licorice and blood pudding. I'm not, however, going to condemn society as a whole because we allow people freedom.

It isn't hate... more like sadness at it's seemingly unquestioned acceptance. I'm not contending it should be illegal. If people want to do this to themselves, so be it... but it doesn't change the fact that it is a sick act.

People modify their bodies all the time for various reasons. Are tattoos sick? How about piercings? Implants?

Just because you can choose language that makes two things tangentially similar doesn't make them in any way equivalent; by that logic the fact that I eat hamburgers all the time means I should have no qualms about devouring a dead baby.

Your example is entirely subjective. People do extreme things to themselves and still live rich full lives. If the modification makes those lives happier then who are we to deny them that happiness?

Friendly neighborhood post-op MtF here. Y'know, I transitioned very publicly on Fark and TF almost a decade ago. I remember getting a lot of support and having some awesome conversations with a lot of people here. Reading through this thread reminds me why I almost never come to the main page anymore. Damn, that's a lot of judgement, folks.

Transitioning was the best thing I could have possibly done for myself. Zero regrets.

Tunacrab:George Babbitt: How does 'born that way' reconcile with justifying a sex change operation? If you are supposed to accept the way you were born, otherwise you end up living a lie. . .Isn't this manufacturing the lie same as a homosexual man or woman(CIS) who pretend to be hetero getting married to an opposite sex(CIS again)person? Even if they are not CIS, how does accepting the way you are born work out to a sex change operation, because if you were born with male physiology and self identify as female or trans or pan or whatever. . .getting an operation which is by it's very nature anti-accepting of how you were born . . .

/. . .

I agree.

You can identify with whatever gender you want, but these sex "reassignment" surgeries are borderline criminal acts by hack doctors. Transgendering is sick. It is self-mutilation, OK'd by our current normalize-everything-without-question liberal zeitgeist, executed by cosmetic surgeons willing to destroy someone's genitalia for a paycheck. Disgusting.

At birth, the doctors removed the bottom of what was supposed to be my labia, called it a "polyp", said "it's a boy" and considered the whole thing done.

I'd already been mutilated before I could have any choice about anything.

As a MtF trans* person, if I were to get the operation.. how would I be mutilating myself instead of correcting a mistake?

I know it's too much to hope for, but I really am looking for a response that has at least some thought put into it....

Loaf's Tray:Prophet of Loss: Tunacrab: LordBeavis: Kahabut: Tunacrab: Elective genital mutilation does not make you the other sex.

We live in a sick society.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^SO FARKING MUCH THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow, lots of hate for the transgendered community. The Fark Libertarian tilt doesn't extend to the people that want to get their naughty bits changed? Much like ghey people, I really don't give two craps what an adult wants to do with his/her naughty parts as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Yes, it's icky and not for me. So is black licorice and blood pudding. I'm not, however, going to condemn society as a whole because we allow people freedom.

It isn't hate... more like sadness at it's seemingly unquestioned acceptance. I'm not contending it should be illegal. If people want to do this to themselves, so be it... but it doesn't change the fact that it is a sick act.

People modify their bodies all the time for various reasons. Are tattoos sick? How about piercings? Implants?

Just because you can choose language that makes two things tangentially similar doesn't make them in any way equivalent; by that logic the fact that I eat hamburgers all the time means I should have no qualms about devouring a dead baby.

youmightberight:LordBeavis: Kahabut: Tunacrab: Elective genital mutilation does not make you the other sex.

We live in a sick society.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^SO FARKING MUCH THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow, lots of hate for the transgendered community. The Fark Libertarian tilt doesn't extend to the people that want to get their naughty bits changed? Much like ghey people, I really don't give two craps what an adult wants to do with his/her naughty parts as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Yes, it's icky and not for me. So is black licorice and blood pudding. I'm not, however, going to condemn society as a whole because we allow people freedom.

We try and keep people from self harm all the time. It's called suicide prevention. This is just an extension of that policy.

You don't let crazy people hurt themselves.

I agree with your assertion that we don't let crazy people hurt themselves. I don't think this falls into that category. It's more like someone being gay.

I think that this isn't a step that most people do without much thought. It seems like these two, along with most other transgendered people's stories, involve years of emotional hardship before they make the decision. So, I don't judge them and view their actions of mutilating their bodies as their choice which wasn't undertaken lightly. It's more humane than forcing them to live what they feel is a charade for their entire lives.

LordBeavis:Kahabut: Tunacrab: Elective genital mutilation does not make you the other sex.

We live in a sick society.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^SO FARKING MUCH THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow, lots of hate for the transgendered community. The Fark Libertarian tilt doesn't extend to the people that want to get their naughty bits changed? Much like ghey people, I really don't give two craps what an adult wants to do with his/her naughty parts as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Yes, it's icky and not for me. So is black licorice and blood pudding. I'm not, however, going to condemn society as a whole because we allow people freedom.

This. A true Libertarian believes that any adult of sound mind should be able to do whatever they wish to do, as long as they aren't harming another person. Cut your dick off, shoot smack, marry a duck, whatever. Leave people the fark alone and let them do what they want.

Tunacrab:It isn't hate... more like sadness at it's seemingly unquestioned acceptance. I'm not contending it should be illegal. If people want to do this to themselves, so be it... but it doesn't change the fact that it is a sick act.

I doubt anyone has that extensive, painful, expensive surgery on a whim, or without good reason.

Do you think a nose job is a sick act? Liposuction? There's lots of things that we can do to ourselves, surgically, because we want to. If this is the extreme they have to go to to have some sort of happiness in their lives, it's hard to call it sick, though I can see the sadness. It's sad that anyone should have to go to such lengths to be happy since it seems like nobody really knows what factors even lead to someone being transgendered.

Tunacrab:LordBeavis: Kahabut: Tunacrab: Elective genital mutilation does not make you the other sex.

We live in a sick society.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^SO FARKING MUCH THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow, lots of hate for the transgendered community. The Fark Libertarian tilt doesn't extend to the people that want to get their naughty bits changed? Much like ghey people, I really don't give two craps what an adult wants to do with his/her naughty parts as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Yes, it's icky and not for me. So is black licorice and blood pudding. I'm not, however, going to condemn society as a whole because we allow people freedom.

It isn't hate... more like sadness at it's seemingly unquestioned acceptance. I'm not contending it should be illegal. If people want to do this to themselves, so be it... but it doesn't change the fact that it is a sick act.

People modify their bodies all the time for various reasons. Are tattoos sick? How about piercings? Implants?

LordBeavis:Kahabut: Tunacrab: Elective genital mutilation does not make you the other sex.

We live in a sick society.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^SO FARKING MUCH THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow, lots of hate for the transgendered community. The Fark Libertarian tilt doesn't extend to the people that want to get their naughty bits changed? Much like ghey people, I really don't give two craps what an adult wants to do with his/her naughty parts as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Yes, it's icky and not for me. So is black licorice and blood pudding. I'm not, however, going to condemn society as a whole because we allow people freedom.

It isn't hate... more like sadness at it's seemingly unquestioned acceptance. I'm not contending it should be illegal. If people want to do this to themselves, so be it... but it doesn't change the fact that it is a sick act.

I occasionally catch the Bunny Ranch series on HBO. One of the strangest things I ever saw on there was a post op mtf trans. Her fantasy was to be with 2 women. She strapped one on and proceeds to pork them. I couldn't help but wonder if at that moment, she missed the original equipment.