I never get in to flame wars but that stupid remark out of left field combined with being on cycle kinda pushed my buttons I guess. Get past that little bit of drama, there is a good read on that link.

Ya nice read loz...real interesting.... I wish he would have had his test levels checked and liver values sometime during his cycle...

I am sure the liver values were elevated. However the whole liver thing is blown out of proportion IMHO. Like its been said alot lately, Arnold and the pro's from that era lived off of Dbol and have good livers so far. Arnold had a reported heart problem but it was found to be a birth defect.

I hate when someone posts there are taking such and such and some idiot sais, "wow your liver must be all messed up".

Ya theyre blown out of proportion imo too but it would have been nice to have some conclusive evidence.... especially when he described his nuts shinkin and then returning to normal....

I'm curious myself. I am not afraid of the needle so I would not even consider an oral cycle, but for someone that is, to suggest they won't grow by taking orals is idiotic. Steroids make you grow. Period. Some to a greater extent than others. Like I said I am not advocating oral only cycles, but if someone is 100% against the needle and wants to gain more than just lifting natural then yes they will see a difference with Dbol , Winny, Anavar , Abombs, M1T, etc. as opposed to nothing.

I was doing research. If thats having too much time then maybe I will just ask every stupid ****ing question that comes to mind asshole.

Dude what is your f'ing problem? I said it was an interesting read didn't I? I made a JOKE about having too much time on your hands. If you get THIS UPSET at a joke NOW, boy are you in trouble when your gear actually starts to work. Oh, and nice following the rules with the language. I guess the rules are overlooked once you get irritated. You need to lower your dosages bro

And I agree with you. Someone lashing out at a silly comment is getting pretty old around this board actually. It turns good topics into pissing wars. I made a joke, butsaid it was a good read. My bad, I didn't know the joke would have that much of an impact on Loz.

My bad bro. 50mg's a day of Dbol. It is kicking in for sure. I feel the aggression and not to mention the bloat.

50mgs ED bro... isnt this your first cycle? You should be at NO MORE than 35-40mg ED. No wonder you are freaking out and aggressive. Also try some l-dex @ .25mg ED for the bloat bro, that will help ya out as well.

I think Loz took it out of context but just remember, we're all on the same team here.
Although I have only been here a few months, I enjoy coming on here learning and shootin the s*** but don't be hatin....ruins it for everyone.

If I wanted to hear cursin, whining, bitchin & complaining I'd be downstairs with my wife!

Quote from I Robot!: Somehow Saying I told you so isn't quite going to cut it ;)

I am probably the only one on this board who doesn't scream you need TEST in every cycle (the most irritating thing is that most don't even know what they are talking about and just repeat what they heard from knowledgeable bros), also an Oral-Only cycle can be effective and safe and especially is effective as an First or Second Cycle (Now I only advocate oral only cycles if they are a DHT-derivative except for Halotestin which I do not recommend).

Just don't go beyond six weeks and feel free to combine more than one as long as total dosage does not go over 50 mg a day!
Also take a liverprotector like Milkthistle!

Not very effective (but also no stress on the liver so take as many weeks as you like at at least 200 mg every day for the Primotabs
and 400 mg every day for the Andriol ):
Primotabs
Andriol (Testosteron)

You can definitely get moderate gains with oral only cycles, provided diet and training is very solid.....the gains will be moderate though, and diet and training does HAVE to be on. Most newbies are not dialed in and won't see the gains that this guy did. "You must include test" is really most applicable to cycles with deca or tren (or anadrol ) IMO, most everything else you can work around by using complementing AAS. Whe you hear people "parrot" that one must use test, it's usually in response to a newbie wanting to run a deca only cycle or something to that effect. rather than trying to help a newbie design a complex cycle with deca and some complementing non-test androgens, we simply tell them to add test or just do a test-only cycle.
There is also the factor of being "on" for a longer period and acheiving consistent but moderate gains vs. a blitz cycle, where one gains considerable weight in less time and then is "off" for a period.....the net gains can and likely will be very comparable.
I still say pct is needed after even a short oral cycle, even with just AM dosing.

Just keep in mind that the seemimgly mindless generalizations people seem to "parrot" (and I generally agree) are generally correct and applicable. The exceptions are usually more involved/complex and add further confusion to someone new to the world of AAS.

I also will say that 17aa compounds' liver toxicity is overdramatized, but it still is a reality.

If you got homebrew recipes for these could you post them in the lab or PM me?????? Me and another bro been shooting around a Primotab and Andriol idea for awhile, but the Andriol just hit a roadblock because of the ingredients needed (not the test but the solvent).

If you got homebrew recipes for these could you post them in the lab or PM me?????? Me and another bro been shooting around a Primotab and Andriol idea for awhile, but the Andriol just hit a roadblock because of the ingredients needed (not the test but the solvent).

Well the succes of these two depend on the absorbtion by the lymphatic system:

Effeciency is depended on:

1) Genetics (most important factor)
2) Carrier

Primotabs originally weren't in a carrier (and still aren't) and Andriol were a big flop due to it being in an ineffective carrier...

I heard rumours about Organon (in Oss about 100 kms away from me) going to pruduce an Andriol II using a much better absorbtionformula, for usage as HRT and for a "male anticonception pill"-trial.

I wouldn't know the molecular weight of Test Undecelynate but why not use a 50/50% mixture of Vitamin E and CycloDextrin (and among with a bit of BA for better dissolving and if needed flavourdrops) and rinse your mouth with it!

I wouldn't know the molecular weight of Test Undecelynate but why not use a 50/50% mixture of Vitamin E and CycloDextrin (and among with a bit of BA for better dissolving and if needed flavourdrops) and rinse your mouth with it!

Cyclodextrine is primarily for sublinguals if am not mistaking so how would that benefit in making an oral?
I considered getting a cheap pill machine and pressing sublingual test suspension for pre-workout, using Test Suspension and Cyclodextrine.

You can definitely get moderate gains with oral only cycles, provided diet and training is very solid.....the gains will be moderate though, and diet and training does HAVE to be on. Most newbies are not dialed in and won't see the gains that this guy did. "You must include test" is really most applicable to cycles with deca or tren (or anadrol ) IMO, most everything else you can work around by using complementing AAS. Whe you hear people "parrot" that one must use test, it's usually in response to a newbie wanting to run a deca only cycle or something to that effect. rather than trying to help a newbie design a complex cycle with deca and some complementing non-test androgens, we simply tell them to add test or just do a test-only cycle.
There is also the factor of being "on" for a longer period and acheiving consistent but moderate gains vs. a blitz cycle, where one gains considerable weight in less time and then is "off" for a period.....the net gains can and likely will be very comparable.
I still say pct is needed after even a short oral cycle, even with just AM dosing.

Just keep in mind that the seemimgly mindless generalizations people seem to "parrot" (and I generally agree) are generally correct and applicable. The exceptions are usually more involved/complex and add further confusion to someone new to the world of AAS.

I also will say that 17aa compounds' liver toxicity is overdramatized, but it still is a reality.

I love Einy's posts. Sometimes I qustion whether most average AS user's knowledge is easily susecptible to Parochial views on AS usage because the same Ideas are progated in the same small community of users. Its always nice to have those that study outside the forums to give us new knowledge.

The facts are : If a Vet or Moderator says he has done a dbol only cycle, everyone will act interested and say good job etc. But if a first time user comes and ask for a dbol only cycle he will get flamed. PERIOD