Fire Colangelo!

Maybe this is just an add on to the mediocrity thread...

I like Demar. He seems like a great kid.

But he has been getting starters minutes on a terrible team for 3 years, and has not been an efficient scorer. His game has limitations which he may or may not overcome, and Colangelo just handed him a contract that he didnt need to at this time, which few other teams were likely to offer him.

For some time it has appeared to me that BC is trying to get us back into the playoffs at any cost, to secure himself a long term extension. Competing for a championship with this group seems very unlikely.

This summer Colangelo's first priority was to try to sign Steve Nash, who has probably got 2 - 3 good years left in the league.

With Demar, with Amir, Kleiza, and Fields the Raptors offered more money and more years than these players were likely to get elsewhere, in the hope that these players would develop into something more than they have showed in their respective careers so far.

Championship teams are not built on hope, on potential, or because their players are good guys. They are built around a core of elite players, with affordable role players, who are allowed to walk when their price becomes too high. Ultimately the Bulls needed MJ and Pippen, they didn't need Horace Grant.

Does anyone around here honestly believe that the Raptors with this core, will be any better than Atlanta has been this past few years? Unless Jonas grows into a top 20 player in this league I do not see it happening.

Credit Danny Ferry (gulp) with shedding the Joe Johnson contract this year because he seemed to realize that with that group, they still didnt have a chance in hell of beating the Heat in a 7 game series. He probably thinks they will have a better chance in the long run if they sign Howard or CP3 this coming off season. I doubt he signs either one, but at least he recognized that his club had hit their ceiling, and it wasnt good enough.

Starting next year we will be paying Joe Johnson money for Bargnani / DeRozan combined. And after 2 games (lol) it seems like Lowry will be in line for a max extension with this club, with this gm, compared to what the other players on the team will be earning.

So the starting 5 of our future is Lowry, DeRozan, Fields, Bargnani, and JV ? Do you guys see us hoisting any banners in the next few years? I don't.

I am kind of hoping this team shits the bed so Colangelo gets fired and we end up coughing up a late lottery pick this season to OKC for the Lowry deal. At this point I do not see Colangelo taking us to the promised land. I would like to see MLSE request from Denver to negotiate a deal with Masai Ujiri. Offer him the role of team President, I like what he has done in Denver.

I do want to mention that I am a Leafs fan, and my attitude towards Burke is quite similar. But last year, when the team started out well, I was just happy they were winning so I quit complaining and cheered with everybody else. But when the team completely colapsed and the season fell apart due to the same problems that had plagued the roster for several years I was not the least bit surprised. I am sick of feeling like this with Toronto sports teams. I would gladly root for a team with potential if it seemed like they were building toward something great. But with this Raptors squad, with this GM, I just don't see it.

Look at some of these deals. They make the contracts Colangelo hands out seem appalling by contrast.

•Andre Miller has signed a one year $3 million deal to stay in Denver.
•Lavoy Allen has signed a two year $6 million contract to stay in Philadelphia.
•Marreese Speights has signed a two year $9 million contract
•Kirk Hinrich has accepted a two year $6 million deal to return to the Chicago Bulls.
•Lou Williams has signed a multi-year MLE deal to join the Atlanta Hawks
•Jordan Hill re-signs with the LA Lakers for a two year $8 million deal.
•Shannon Brown has signed a two year $7 million deal with the Phoenix Suns.
•Randy Foye signs a one year $2.5 million contract with the Utah Jazz.
•Ryan Hollins signs with the LA Clippers on a minimum contract.
•Carl Landry signs with the Golden State Warriors for two years $8 million.
•Brandon Rush re-signs with the Golden State Warriors for two years $8 million.

Can anyone say that a roster made up of some of these players would be any worse than our team, with guys who are paid 2 or 3 times as much money? Sometimes I wonder if Colangelo is paying attention to what other GMs are doing when he is negotiating these contracts, or if he thinks that Toronto is so undesirable, that he has to shell out 2 - 3 million dollars above market value for a player, and add on an extra year or two to each contract to get these guys to come here.

...Sometimes I wonder if Colangelo is paying attention to what other GMs are doing when he is negotiating these contracts, or if he thinks that Toronto is so undesirable, that he has to shell out 2 - 3 million dollars above market value for a player, and add on an extra year or two to each contract to get these guys to come here.

I suspect Colangelo is offering lower contracts to free agents but they are turning him down. Or do you not think he is bright enough to have tried that? Don't forget the Lowry deal...an absolute steal. Go back to the thread about how easy it is to get free agents to sign here.

I suspect Colangelo is offering lower contracts to free agents but they are turning him down. Or do you not think he is bright enough to have tried that? Don't forget the Lowry deal...an absolute steal. Go back to the thread about how easy it is to get free agents to sign here.

Lowry's deal wasn't negotiated with Toronto, so I don't see how that is relevant. I agree it is great value. Toronto was rumored to be interested in Lowry before the FA signing period began. I don't mind Ross and I hope he develops into a good player, but I would argue that instead of going after Steve Nash, we should have dealt this year's pick for Lowry instead of one in the future.

Fields was an RFA, and many people believe the offer sheet had as much to do with getting Nash as it did with getting Fields. With Johnson, with Kleiza, Turk, whoever, if you have to overpay to get them to come here then I would argue it isnt worth it. Players would consider signing here for less money if they thought they had a chance to win.

Also, with Ross, and with Ed Davis, I don't know why we drafted these players and then signed or resigned players to play ahead of them on the depth chart. I know people around here don't tend to be all that high on Davis, but we might as well have been force feeding him minutes the last 2 years while we were doing the same thing with Demar. Instead we overpaid to resign a similar player (Amir) and squandered the development of a player who fell to us in the draft, because he was injured in his sophmore year.

...Players would consider signing here for less money if they thought they had a chance to win.

Isn't this the point. BC has to find players willing to come to TO, and then pay them enough to get them to agree, then produce enough wins that other free agents agree to come to TO for less money. You can't get the wins with lower quality players who would sign with the Raps for less money unless you hit some home runs with the draft. The draft is a crap shoot. Raps have done pretty well with their last 3, given the love for Davis and Ross and JV seen on this forum. They have signed some players that should help. Their play in pre-season and so for this season shows that they should finish higher than last year, and maybe even get to the play-offs. They have some more financial room next season with JC coming off the books and maybe with a Kleiza amnesty. So they might sign a major free agent next summer to add to the Lowry, JV, AB core. One more piece would cause an significant step forward for this team. And that is without expecting much from Davis or Ross.

But I do think numerous different mistakes up until this point were reasons enough for him to not be re-upped, I think the accelerated rebuild, and not attempting to move some of the teams current core players and rather putting a greater emphasis on them, since the 'rebuild' started are reasons for his team options not used after this season.

However, I expect at the very least the team option will be used and he'll be given one more year as long as anything other than a total team meltdown happens.

Don't forget the Lowry deal...an absolute steal. Go back to the thread about how easy it is to get free agents to sign here.

Lowry has been great, no question about that. But a guaranteed lottery pick was given up for him... considering how hard it is to sign FA, that makes it a much more valuable asset to give up. (not only because it is the best way for Toronto to get talent, but the time line of the pick means Toronto can't trade a first round pick (therefore another use for that asset) to make a deal until said pick is used).

Isn't this the point. BC has to find players willing to come to TO, and then pay them enough to get them to agree, then produce enough wins that other free agents agree to come to TO for less money. You can't get the wins with lower quality players who would sign with the Raps for less money unless you hit some home runs with the draft. The draft is a crap shoot. Raps have done pretty well with their last 3, given the love for Davis and Ross and JV seen on this forum. They have signed some players that should help. Their play in pre-season and so for this season shows that they should finish higher than last year, and maybe even get to the play-offs. They have some more financial room next season with JC coming off the books and maybe with a Kleiza amnesty. So they might sign a major free agent next summer to add to the Lowry, JV, AB core. One more piece would cause an significant step forward for this team. And that is without expecting much from Davis or Ross.

I don't know what max or near max free agent next year that you are expecting to take us over the top, but even then, no I don't believe that will make this team a championship contender.

Isn't this the point. BC has to find players willing to come to TO, and then pay them enough to get them to agree, then produce enough wins that other free agents agree to come to TO for less money. You can't get the wins with lower quality players who would sign with the Raps for less money unless you hit some home runs with the draft. The draft is a crap shoot. Raps have done pretty well with their last 3, given the love for Davis and Ross and JV seen on this forum. They have signed some players that should help. Their play in pre-season and so for this season shows that they should finish higher than last year, and maybe even get to the play-offs. They have some more financial room next season with JC coming off the books and maybe with a Kleiza amnesty. So they might sign a major free agent next summer to add to the Lowry, JV, AB core. One more piece would cause an significant step forward for this team. And that is without expecting much from Davis or Ross.

They don't have any financial room next year. They have the mid-level exception to use and possibly Bird Rights on Calderon. The other alternative is Calderon is renounced and a player is amnestied. In that situation, the Raps could have about $5M-$11M depending on who is amnestied (LK, AB, AJ) but no MLE.

Toronto is not going to be a player in free agency, not because no one wants to come here, but because they don't have any money to offer.

...Lowry has been great, no question about that. But a guaranteed lottery pick was given up for him... considering how hard it is to sign FA, that makes it a much more valuable asset to give up...

Only if that pick would have landed you a better player than Lowry. I find it hard to imagine that occurring. Certainly possible, but as has been said before many times, the draft is a crap shoot. We all know how many lottery picks don't pan out.

Only if that pick would have landed you a better player than Lowry. I find it hard to imagine that occurring. Certainly possible, but as has been said before many times, the draft is a crap shoot. We all know how many lottery picks don't pan out.

Given the quality of the Raps opponents and the fact they have had an opportunity to win both games, I think a lottery pick less than 12 is highly unlikely. A 12th pick for Lowry is an absolute f*cking steal.

Only if that pick would have landed you a better player than Lowry. I find it hard to imagine that occurring. Certainly possible, but as has been said before many times, the draft is a crap shoot. We all know how many lottery picks don't pan out.

It may seem that way on face value, but we also have to consider:

- it takes away an additional asset in a trade until the pick is used
- Lowry's deal is only 2 years after which he is a FA. A draft pick, considering RFA, is more or less locked up for 7 yeras (likely 8). And no I'm not saying Lowry will leave after 2 years, but I am saying the organization has much less control over the process.

On average the only asset more valuable than a lottery pick is a superstar on any contract.

So while I'm not saying the deal was a bad one, it definetely wasn't a steal.

- it takes away an additional asset in a trade until the pick is used
- Lowry's deal is only 2 years after which he is a FA. A draft pick, considering RFA, is more or less locked up for 7 yeras (likely 8). And no I'm not saying Lowry will leave after 2 years, but I am saying the organization has much less control over the process.

On average the only asset more valuable than a lottery pick is a superstar on any contract.

So while I'm not saying the deal was a bad one, it definetely wasn't a steal.

The pick was used to acquire a very good asset. I find the argument that the pick should be reserved as an asset in a trade a little confusing since it was already used to acquire a very good asset in a trade.

fire him because the root problem of this team will never be fixed while he is here.

The listless 7 foot italian kid who has the arrogance to suggest he hasn't worries about his jump shot since he was 6.

Bargs thinks he is the sh* because he has incredible skill and size.... but he is the furthest thing from a champion - and he shows it to us time and again... Most recently when 4 inches shorter DAVID WEST skull f'ed him in the 4th quarter of the home opener.

Torpedo Bargs and Calderon and Bring in a Nicolas Batum and the team will change over night.... easier said than done.

...the Raps could have about $5M-$11M depending on who is amnestied (LK, AB, AJ) but no MLE.

Toronto is not going to be a player in free agency, not because no one wants to come here, but because they don't have any money to offer.

If they amnesty Kleiza or Amir and JC's contract comes off the books, and the cap moves up another 1-2 million, I expect they could upgrade the roster. Given how I feel about the current roster (I am expecting to see 38 wins) a free agent with a $7-8M price tag should have a positive impact. With JV and Ross growth, another year of the rest playing together, a successful trade from BC, I continue to expect good things to happen and steady improvement to occur for the next two years. I'm happy with that. then see where they go from there. There is absolutely nothing they can do to become contenders in two - three years, no matter who is running the show. I just want entertaining basketball, and more wins than losses.

If they amnesty Kleiza or Amir and JC's contract comes off the books, and the cap moves up another 1-2 million, I expect they could upgrade the roster. Given how I feel about the current roster (I am expecting to see 38 wins) a free agent with a $7-8M price tag should have a positive impact. With JV and Ross growth, another year of the rest playing together, a successful trade from BC, I continue to expect good things to happen and steady improvement to occur for the next two years. I'm happy with that. then see where they go from there. There is absolutely nothing they can do to become contenders in two - three years, no matter who is running the show. I just want entertaining basketball, and more wins than losses.

Maybe. Raptor and BC history in free agency would suggest otherwise but you never know.

A guy I hope the Raptors consider if Kleiza was amnestied is Dorrell Wright. I think he returns to his GSW form of 2 seasons ago.

The pick was used to acquire a very good asset. I find the argument that the pick should be reserved as an asset in a trade a little confusing since it was already used to acquire a very good asset in a trade.

its the time line of the trade. Since the pick itself won't actually be traded until it meets the requirements of the deal (ie. Raps finish somewhere between 3-14th or 5 years (I know the range changes over the years but just for ease)) and a team can't go 2 consecutive years without using a 1st round pick, trading 1st round picks is now not an option until that deal is completed

its the time line of the trade. Since the pick itself won't actually be traded until it meets the requirements of the deal (ie. Raps finish somewhere between 3-14th or 5 years (I know the range changes over the years but just for ease)) and a team can't go 2 consecutive years without using a 1st round pick, trading 1st round picks is now not an option until that deal is completed

(unless ofcourse Toronto is able to trade for a 1st round pick).

I think I explained that properly.

That is going to happen on any pick that has protections though. For example, Dallas can't trade a pick because they still have a top 20 pick outstanding. I'd much rather see the Raps pick with the protections it has right now versus a straight pick. Even in that situation they still can't trade a pick (unless the Raps select for a team on draft night) until 2015.

The argument, as I understand it, is the pick should have been used to acquire an asset. I am struggling to think of a better asset to acquire with it than Lowry.

its the time line of the trade. Since the pick itself won't actually be traded until it meets the requirements of the deal (ie. Raps finish somewhere between 3-14th or 5 years (I know the range changes over the years but just for ease)) and a team can't go 2 consecutive years without using a 1st round pick, trading 1st round picks is now not an option until that deal is completed

(unless ofcourse Toronto is able to trade for a 1st round pick).

I think I explained that properly.

Back to the earlier comment of trading for a certainty versus an uncertainty.

Lowry, right now, is an asset that will improve the team for the next two years. An improved win/loss record may make it easier to attract free agents for less than atrocious money.

Additionally, Lowry could be packaged with someone else in the trade deal to acquire a better player than packaging a pick in the 6-10 range and anyone on the roster the Raps would choose to trade (the likelihood of the Raps playing badly enough to acquire a pick in the 3-5 range is slight). I still don't see the attraction of an unknown pick (in the 6-10 or lower range) and their lower salary and their likely lower ability that might be available at some unknown time in the future. But I suppose it is a philosophical difference.