Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU

Because of the Law of Free Will, God cannot come down and dwell among us. Not again at least, for God did come to do that as Jesus the Christ (probably named Yeshua or Yehoshua in the Hebrew). God came once to prove it all and offer a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world and for all time: past, present, and future. It was sufficient.

If God were to come down and dwell among us, then it break the Law of Free Will, for then seeing the miracle of God on a daily basis 24/7 then their is no belief by Faith only belief by objective observation. God desires to be believed by Faith, and possibly by derived Reason, but not by empirical evidence.

Those who wait for the latter will wait until they take their last breath in all actuality, for seldom in history do miracles happen. And despite miracles happening on a daily basis, and your life is one of them, then people still don't believe.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

Exactly! That's kinda my point, if god came for a visit, that would be it, the end. And "atheists" need that proof to believe. It will never happen. So to argue who is correct, is mute. There are no winners in this battle. Healthy discussion is great and I love to hear both sides, but at the end of the day I just can't reconcile that there is no God. I look outside for proof and its all around. I watch videos like these below, and its fascinating! I didn't say it was proof of god, but damn people it is something to think about!

DBA, after watching the video you posted above, it reminded me of a couple videos I watched that were fantastic. They also mention DNA information, One DNA has enough information to stack library books from here to the moon! Crazy! Anyway, tell me if you have watched all of these. If you haven't, please do. Some are really long and in segments, but I watched everyone and wow! They are worth the watch. I saw them on Netflix.

I love this one... Has quantum physicists, scientists, etc interviewed also. Fascinating! The Case For Christ [link to www.amazon.com]

Quoting: PENG

Yes my friend, there are many wonderful videos, but usually it's not God that's the issue. It's that there's always an alternative explanation of Creation up to a point. Much of that is intellectually dishonest, for while brilliant scientists can discover incredible aspects to the nature of how we are made at the microscopic level, at some point you have to say, "Yes, but how did something like an eye evolve into being."

One alternative theory is that all of Life from the simplests phospholipid bilayer which forms the first envelope of organic soup and the proto-life of viruses or prions are the natural laws of the Universe. That all life unfolds in an ordered way into complex species over time. It won't hold up, because logically DNA doesn't evolve in fast enough time even with Billions of years. We know from important studies on E coli that there isn't enough evolution going on even in 40 years of observing it with who knows how many generations of bacteria forming it hasn't evolved significantly.

Personally, I don't see the big deal about evolution because who knows how a Supreme Being created Life. No one was there. Maybe God used some form of evolution. I don't get bent out of shape like some fundamentalists do. It's not a litmus test for being a Christian.

The more I study science, philosophy, the humanities, and spirituality, the more I believe in God.

So, how the heck can one Christian convince a nonbeliever? It isn't by using the Bible. That's getting the cart before the horse.

99% of the time, when witnessing, we're creating a relationship with another human being. We genuinely care about others, for Jesus said to do very specific things if we are His Sheep.

If an atheist, you could stop listening if the Bible offends you, for I'm preaching to the choir (the Christians) for a moment:"The Judgment

31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25: 34-46

When we do these things in a sincere selfless manner, as many missionaries have done in countless nations, then many other people seeing their good works will say, "Sir or Madam, why are you here doing all of these wonderfully kind things? It's expensive for you to be building schools to educate our children. That hospital is saving so many lives. Those wells you dug for us, we are getting healthier now that you have built them. Why do you do these things for us?".

Now the missionaries can say, "We do it out of love. We don't do it out of reason. We do it because once someone helped us and they were Christians. Jesus told us to do these things. He is our Master. He said it, so we do it. He must increase and we must decrease. We want to share that goodness from our Master with you, if you are interested. We will do these things even if you're not interested, for there is Free Will. It's up to you to listen if interested."

Many will listen then because we're doing what Jesus said to do. Jesus Saves...not us. We are frail beings and make mistakes. Jesus is undeniably kind hearted and good. Seldom will people say the opposite of Jesus.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

Don'tBeAfraid, thanks for bringing truth and eloquence into the conversation. I agree with your approach in sharing truth in love. It's also reassuring to know that no argument I give for the truth of Christ will win someone over-- unless God is softening that person's heart and mind to receive the gospel. We must be faithful in doing what we've been called to do in Christ and trust Him with the outcome. God can use a highly-intellecual argument to loose the chains of the oppressed or He can use the simplest of scriptures from the mouth of a child to do that same work. God can use my 7 year old daughter as much as a William Lane Craig or Ravi Zacharias.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85989

Thank you for your kindness. Jesus said that we must be called by God for us to become aware of God. People think they chose God, but actually the Bible says that we cannot find God on our own.

People think that they can find the Source. They look in a book called the Bible. They might attend a church service. Perhaps they go on a spiritual retreat. They explore the wilderness trying to find the Source. They search the eyes of their friends for the Source too.

You cannot find YHWH that way. One could search a whole lifetime and never find YHWH.

Doing so, you will only find glimmers and disappointment in the end. Many fall away because of this, even though they begin with good intentions.

Because people look for the Source that way, and then cannot understand the Bible, then they assume if it a meaningless book.

They go to a church service, see some things which are good and others as hypocrisy and never find the Source.

They go on a spiritual retreat, and though surrounded by passionate believers, they feel lost.

They walk in the woods, and when no one is around, they speak to the Source...even aloud...and silence is the answer.

They see good works in their friends who believe and yet no matter what, they also see that they are human and fallible and the Source does not appear in their midst.

How then to find the Source of All Love?

You must ask to be found by YHWH and called.

John 3:27 To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven.

John 6:44 Jesus said "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.''

John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

We can only draw near to the presence of YHWH if allowed. It is the Source's decision for it to occur.

Don't think you choose to believe in YHWH. First you were known and then called.

If you are not called, then something must be impeding the call to happen.

Have you ever wanted to meet someone, have a relationship with them, and it didn't happen? When that occurred did you get upset ? Maybe the one that you so longed for, that you felt was perfect, that was right for you, and still it didn't occur. Did you then say very negative things in your mind about them? Did you tell other people that that person wasn't any good, anyway? Were things awkward from then on? Now years later, do you find that your mind turns to that special time and “what might have been?”

Is the Source cruel then? Does YHWH evade us? That can't be correct.

What does Jesus say? John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

What does that mean? What an unusual statement. He's speaking to Nicodemus. Nicodemus was a wise rabbi who was a Pharisee who spent an enormous amount of time searching the Torah and the Prophets looking for the Source. He was respected and a member of the Sanhedrin, the council of those with special authority. He also was kind to Jesus (Yeshua) and we know later that he did special things when Jesus died. At his own expense he made burial arrangements. If there was one good man in Jerusalem, then everyone would have assumed it was Nicodemus.

Jesus says he must do one thing...be born again, and then he shall see the Kingdom of God. That seems like a paradox until you read the entire chapter. Jesus has come, not to condemn. The world condemns you. Mean cruel people condemn you. Maybe your parents condemn you.

Jesus saves you.

You have been swallowed by the darkness. You are fearful of the Light of the Source. It exposed your darkness within. The only way is....shhhh it's secret:

John 3:19-21 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Fear of exposure. That is what is impeding you.

When we decide that we will practice truth and be born again, then YHWH allow us to see the Kingdom of God. Only then will you be found by the Source of All Life.

The impediment is YOU, not God. Being born again is the door to discovering the Source.

Jesus is here to save us from the darkness. When the collapse comes, the we will need Him. The only way is stop being afraid of being exposed for the darkness in our hearts, and then practice truth so we can see the Kingdom of God.

Because of the Law of Free Will, God cannot come down and dwell among us. Not again at least, for God did come to do that as Jesus the Christ (probably named Yeshua or Yehoshua in the Hebrew). God came once to prove it all and offer a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world and for all time: past, present, and future. It was sufficient.

If God were to come down and dwell among us, then it break the Law of Free Will, for then seeing the miracle of God on a daily basis 24/7 then their is no belief by Faith only belief by objective observation. God desires to be believed by Faith, and possibly by derived Reason, but not by empirical evidence.

Those who wait for the latter will wait until they take their last breath in all actuality, for seldom in history do miracles happen. And despite miracles happening on a daily basis, and your life is one of them, then people still don't believe.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

Exactly! That's kinda my point, if god came for a visit, that would be it, the end. And "atheists" need that proof to believe. It will never happen. So to argue who is correct, is mute. There are no winners in this battle. Healthy discussion is great and I love to hear both sides, but at the end of the day I just can't reconcile that there is no God. I look outside for proof and its all around. I watch videos like these below, and its fascinating! I didn't say it was proof of god, but damn people it is something to think about!

DBA, after watching the video you posted above, it reminded me of a couple videos I watched that were fantastic. They also mention DNA information, One DNA has enough information to stack library books from here to the moon! Crazy! Anyway, tell me if you have watched all of these. If you haven't, please do. Some are really long and in segments, but I watched everyone and wow! They are worth the watch. I saw them on Netflix.

I love this one... Has quantum physicists, scientists, etc interviewed also. Fascinating! The Case For Christ [link to www.amazon.com]

Quoting: PENG

Yes my friend, there are many wonderful videos, but usually it's not God that's the issue. It's that there's always an alternative explanation of Creation up to a point. Much of that is intellectually dishonest, for while brilliant scientists can discover incredible aspects to the nature of how we are made at the microscopic level, at some point you have to say, "Yes, but how did something like an eye evolve into being."

One alternative theory is that all of Life from the simplests phospholipid bilayer which forms the first envelope of organic soup and the proto-life of viruses or prions are the natural laws of the Universe. That all life unfolds in an ordered way into complex species over time. It won't hold up, because logically DNA doesn't evolve in fast enough time even with Billions of years. We know from important studies on E coli that there isn't enough evolution going on even in 40 years of observing it with who knows how many generations of bacteria forming it hasn't evolved significantly.

Personally, I don't see the big deal about evolution because who knows how a Supreme Being created Life. No one was there. Maybe God used some form of evolution. I don't get bent out of shape like some fundamentalists do. It's not a litmus test for being a Christian.

The more I study science, philosophy, the humanities, and spirituality, the more I believe in God.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

Are you making up with me? :-). :hf:

Ok, so it would have been really awesome if you had said, "I love those videos!" Or "OMG, what a great find! Can't wait to watch them!" I like them soooo much, I thought of only you when I went to find them. Are you laughing yet? my mission is to make you smile today! Honest. :)

Call me a pot but heat me not.-PutinSilence is where God speaks. Anything else is but a poor translation. -RumiWanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.An old broom knows all the corners.Slow is smooth; smooth is steady; steady is fast.

Evolution is simply the long term result of adaptation, which IS observable, tangible, provable, etc.

Call me a pot but heat me not.-PutinSilence is where God speaks. Anything else is but a poor translation. -RumiWanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.An old broom knows all the corners.Slow is smooth; smooth is steady; steady is fast.

Ok, so it would have been really awesome if you had said, "I love those videos!" Or "OMG, what a great find! Can't wait to watch them!" I like them soooo much, I thought of only you when I went to find them. Are you laughing yet? my mission is to make you smile today! Honest. :)

Quoting: PENG

My dear friend, I have felt close to you every day since I first met you. Even if we had a disagreement, it was very minor, and if you had spoken to me in person or on the phone you would immediately have felt self-assured. I don't ever stay upset more than moments. I am lucky that way.

I'm sure they are wonderful and I will watch them, I promise, if only because I value your opinion as well as your most excellent friendship. You are a superb friend and a credit to women in general and a True Lady.

Since I have written perhaps as much as 20 pages of material in a matter of a couple of hours, then I think I can be forgiven for not watching the videos while I act as an ambassador for Christ and an apologist for rational Humanity too.

Ok, so it would have been really awesome if you had said, "I love those videos!" Or "OMG, what a great find! Can't wait to watch them!" I like them soooo much, I thought of only you when I went to find them. Are you laughing yet? my mission is to make you smile today! Honest. :)

Quoting: PENG

My dear friend, I have felt close to you every day since I first met you. Even if we had a disagreement, it was very minor, and if you had spoken to me in person or on the phone you would immediately have felt self-assured. I don't ever stay upset more than moments. I am lucky that way.

I'm sure they are wonderful and I will watch them, I promise, if only because I value your opinion as well as your most excellent friendship. You are a superb friend and a credit to women in general and a True Lady.

Since I have written perhaps as much as 20 pages of material in a matter of a couple of hours, then I think I can be forgiven for not watching the videos while I act as an ambassador for Christ and an apologist for rational Humanity too.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

LOL.

But have I made you smile today???

I'll meet you someday.... I travel up there often. So you're on my bucket list for sure. ;)

"May the road rise up to meet you.... May the wind be always at your back..."

Once again you people have no faith. No faith means you are not in God's grace. Faith without works is dead like a body without a spirit.

Here is my work. Look around you. Is it not apparent that this Earth age is ending? How much more proof do you need than that? It is written in a book today called the Holy Bible, once a collection of scrolls. All these tomes witness to each other on these very things taking place today.

What about the fact that numbers have meaning in the bible and consistently mean the same thing across all scripture, regions, languages, cultures, and centuries? This is proof of a divine influence.

What about the figures of speech, patterns in language, that also span across all scripture, regions, languages, cultures, and centuries? More proof of divine influence.

What about the FACT that Jesus Christ lived on earth for approximately 33 years and IS GOD in the flesh? Extra-biblical accounts are recorded by historians of that time. He preformed all the miracles accounted for in the Holy Scriptures and it was documented.

What about all biblical archaeology? Is that not scientific proof of the Holy Scriptures? What more?

So any that do not know the Son, do not know the Father. And HE does not and will not know you either. Any WICKED man that says God does not exist is wholly IGNORANT, and lacks knowledge and is accounted as an antichrist. We were warned of these types.

To try and discredit something, you must first know everything about it. They surely have not read anything nor do they know anything.

In the end, it does not matter. GOD IS IN CONTROL!!! This age is ending now. Get your ways straight and live in His Word. It is your choice. But regardless of what you choose, it does not affect any true Christ-man or Christ-woman because we are righteous and have the VICTORY through Christ Jesus in the end. All that persecuted us will be made subject unto us in the time to come. And I personally will make it a point to be a very, very, very strict teacher and ruler.

We are so very lucky for those who have a great capacity for reason. Think of all of the great philosophers, writers, scientists, artists, from myriad nations who all have that great yearning inside for Truth.

Those who don't believe but contain this marvelous ability to communicate their ideas as well as challenge other's ideas keep us honest. Real Truth is seldom in one person. It's the result of of a long discourse and much struggling like a mother giving birth to a child, but even moreso like the long courtship of Faith and Reason with furtive glances, secret kisses, and lovemaking bring forth a new life into being.

An atheist is not the enemy, nor is an agnostic, nor is a Christian. The Enemy is Falsehood.

Atheists think they have the Truth, but Christians think they possess it solely. Therefore each points fingers and say, "You LIAR!" which is rather silly for rational beings, isn't it?

The reality is far more mystical and compelling. When we struggle literally contend with God (YHWH) then we have an epiphany."Jacob Wrestles With God

22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,[c] and he was limping because of his hip." Genesis 32:22-31

Some people think this is a very unusual Bible verse. Here is a celestial being who is not only an angel, even God, but also a man, that this being that Jacob(Israel) wrestled with was Jesus.

I'll meet you someday.... I travel up there often. So you're on my bucket list for sure. ;)

Quoting: PENG

Of course you have PENG. You are wonderfully charming and almost always I find myself smiling at your irresistible playfullness. You will be young when you are 80 while others will be old before their time.

Agreed. In fact, we are watery beings made up almost entirely of water as are all species. We largely live on an Earth of water. In fact we think that carbon and water are just about the only ways life can exist at all.

Then we argue and bring discord over who is lying. It's all really silly.

Atheists and Christians usually don't argue specifically if there is a God or there is not a God on this newsgroup.

We usually argue if Jesus Christ existed at all and if Jesus Christ is God.

We argue if the current cannoized Christian Bible is with error or completely without error.

Since the Bible is full of contradictions, we know for a fact that it is with error. Did Judas hang himself or did he fall to his death? A Christian appologist might say that he hanged and when he was cut down, his guts burst out. People who believe that the Bible is without error constantly make these kind of contrived appologies. One appology might seem o.k., but when Christians make thousands of appologies trying to say that the Bible is without error and says the same thing, then they are lying to themselves and to us.

Now God is a subjective thing. I can worship breasts and bottoms and money. God to many people is a person that has never lied and a person who hates slavery. Well we know from the Bible that Jesus lied. John 7:8-10. A Christian appologist would say he just changed his mind. "but as it were in secret" is pretty deceptive for God. Jesus also said beat slaves even though the slaves didn't know they were doing wrong. Luke 12:47-48. A Christian appologist would say that it is just a parable, a story. But a story teaches, and Jesus was teaching slavery. If he was God, the kind of God I would worship, he would say, free your slaves.

Jesus Christ was never even mentioned together before 325 a.d. Jesus wasn't even a person's name before then. In fact, we do know who wrote several parts of the Bible because we can study early versions of it and see how it changed. We can learn a lot of things by what was mentioned early on and what wasn't.

For example, the entire New Testament and Christianity is based on Revelation, a book on Astrology by Apollonius, which was never meant to be publically read. We know that Lucius Plutarchus who was a very famous Roman and royal historian, was the original Luke of the Bible because both men have the same personal history, born in the same town, died in the same place. We know that the travels of Paul (Apollonius) were really the conquest paths of Titus. And we know that the religion of Mythras later was turned into the religion of Christianity.

God allowed me to meet Satan as I was backsliding, and let me just stay he is very real and very scary, he is something we need to take seriously.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25234912

Because I am Christian and because I am an educated person, I can perceive Evil. Much of that I believe is a Spirit of Falsehood. For me, Evil is the Personification of Falsehood that accuses Humanity. That being is Satan or Lucifer or the Great Red Dragon that is present and will bring about the End of the World as we know it.

Now all of that sounds like a myth to a nonbeliever, doesn't it? I bet if you're an atheist or an agnostic then you're laughing. That's OK, it's a start.

Can you also tell me, that despite not believing in God, that you cannot imagine Satan existing? I doubt it. I don't know any atheists who believe that Evil doesn't exist. They may argue that they don't. They may make claims that evil is merely a judgement based upon cultural norms. They give lip service to that until a crime if commited in their family or they come face to face with a great evil being. Then even those doubters believe in Evil.

If you believe in Evil, then why is it nonsensical to believe that Good and Evil cannot be incarnate as Spirits? If that is so, then this is the beginning of the long philosophical question of what that eternal battle means.

I'm no Zoroastrian who reduces God and Satan in such simple dualistic forms. I'm saying that in order to have a philosophical discussion, we must have a frame of reference that agrees that Good and Evil exist. Otherwise you end up with some sort of Daoist idea of Yin and Yang than sounds great on paper but doesn't explain genocide or say the horrific sexual torture in Bosnia and Serbia.

Atheists and Christians usually don't argue specifically if there is a God or there is not a God on this newsgroup.

We usually argue if Jesus Christ existed at all and if Jesus Christ is God.

We argue if the current cannoized Christian Bible is with error or completely without error.

Since the Bible is full of contradictions, we know for a fact that it is with error. Did Judas hang himself or did he fall to his death? A Christian appologist might say that he hanged and when he was cut down, his guts burst out. People who believe that the Bible is without error constantly make these kind of contrived appologies. One appology might seem o.k., but when Christians make thousands of appologies trying to say that the Bible is without error and says the same thing, then they are lying to themselves and to us.

Now God is a subjective thing. I can worship breasts and bottoms and money. God to many people is a person that has never lied and a person who hates slavery. Well we know from the Bible that Jesus lied. John 7:8-10. A Christian appologist would say he just changed his mind. "but as it were in secret" is pretty deceptive for God. Jesus also said beat slaves even though the slaves didn't know they were doing wrong. Luke 12:47-48. A Christian appologist would say that it is just a parable, a story. But a story teaches, and Jesus was teaching slavery. If he was God, the kind of God I would worship, he would say, free your slaves.

Jesus Christ was never even mentioned together before 325 a.d. Jesus wasn't even a person's name before then. In fact, we do know who wrote several parts of the Bible because we can study early versions of it and see how it changed. We can learn a lot of things by what was mentioned early on and what wasn't.

For example, the entire New Testament and Christianity is based on Revelation, a book on Astrology by Apollonius, which was never meant to be publically read. We know that Lucius Plutarchus who was a very famous Roman and royal historian, was the original Luke of the Bible because both men have the same personal history, born in the same town, died in the same place. We know that the travels of Paul (Apollonius) were really the conquest paths of Titus. And we know that the religion of Mythras later was turned into the religion of Christianity.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1518033

You are correct. Suggested reading The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33254054

Some of that is rather silly and not supported by historical evidence. There have been Christians (Christ-followers) since the time of Jesus, and reading the fragment called the Magdelene document which is a portion of Mark, as well very early copies of Paul's letters show that it was written within 50 years of Jesus' death and ressurection. [link to www.bib-arch.org]

"On December 24, 1994, the Times of London ran a front-page story entitled “Oxford papyrus is ‘eyewitness record of the life of Christ.’” The article reported the claim that three papyrus fragments of Matthew’s Gospel in Magdalen College, Oxford, date to the mid-first century C.E. Instead of having been written a generation or more after Jesus’ death, as is—or was—the scholarly consensus, Matthew’s Gospel was written within a decade or so of the crucifixion by someone who was there at the time, so the article said. This, of course, would indeed be astounding and worthy of the treatment the Times gave it.“Not since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947,” the story continued, “has there been such a potentially important breakthrough in biblical scholarship.” The newspaper devoted nearly two full pages to the story, including an editorial that likened the alleged new discovery not only to finding the Dead Sea Scrolls, but also to Howard Carter’s discovery of Tutankhamun’s treasures and to Schliemann’s location of Troy. Two days later, the Times included an extended interview with Dr. Carsten Thiede of Paderborn, Germany, on whose scholarship this claim is based.Thiede’s claims are threefold. First, Matthew’s Gospel is an eyewitness account of the life and teaching of Jesus—so today’s Bible scholars (who date it to about 80 C.E.) are wrong, and the early church fathers were right after all. Second, at the time Matthew was written the formal separation of Christianity and Judaism had not yet occurred. Third, “Recognition of Christ’s divinity was made before the end of classical Judaism in 70 C.E.”

It is likely that Paul did not write many letters until the beginning of his second missionary journey in A.D. 49. There would not be much point in writing letters until he was already somewhat well traveled, and had people to write to. The oldest letter that we have is 1 Thessalonians, and it was written around A.D. 49-51. He continued writing letters up until his death in A.D. 67, so we have a range of A.D. 49-67 for all of his letters. Attempting to date the letters more accurately is like putting together an intricate puzzle that is missing many of the pieces. Some letters can be dated fairly precisely, such as 1 Thessalonians, and others not so much. I give the most probable dates of the letters below. Because of the arguments' length, their peripheral relevance to this book, and their tendency to put people to sleep, I do not put them here, but only give a very brief outline. For the full arguments, see the introductions mentioned above. They give slightly different dates, because they did not use Finegan as the source for the chronology of Paul's life."

How many gods don't you believe in?You don't believe in Zeus, the most powerful of the gods according to the Ancient Greeks, you don't believe in Helios or in any of the other gods, goddesses, spirits etc of the Greco-Roman pantheon.You don't believe in Odin the most powerful god for the Nordic religion, you don't believer in Thor of the mighty hammer. You don't believe in the rest of that pantheon.You don't believe in the ancient Celtic gods and goddesses who required human sacrifice.You don't believe in the ancient Aztec and other South American gods/goddesses who also required human sacrifice.Those above are just a small sample of gods and goddesses you don't believe in.

A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.

Quoting: simultaneous_final

A true atheist would state there is no God. One who merely lacks belief is generally defined as agnostic. Since you don't even grasp the basic terms involved you might consider just butting out since those who'd argue either side wouldn't listen to you anyway.

Quoting: Raymantheheretic

An atheist LACKS BELIEF in a god or gods.

An atheist needn't express a belief that "there IS NO god".

Take, for example, someone raised without a concept of gods. They are an atheist because they don't profess a belief in god.

Strictly speaking, EVERYONE is an "agnostic". From the Jesus freaks to the rabid "positive atheists".

HEBREWS9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

REVELATION22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

So, how the heck can one Christian convince a nonbeliever? It isn't by using the Bible. That's getting the cart before the horse.

Many will listen then because we're doing what Jesus said to do. Jesus Saves...not us. We are frail beings and make mistakes. Jesus is undeniably kind hearted and good. Seldom will people say the opposite of Jesus.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

Tell me, why does a Christian need to convince a nonbeliever? If you believe in your own faith, that it's right for you, that's all that should matter to you. But if you need to convince someone else of your faith, then that tells me that you aren't convinced of it yourself. And because you aren't convinced of it, you must use biblical verses in order to make your point. Your religion has forbade you think for yourself so you must let the bible do your thinking for you. You don't realize how weak your argument is because you are on the inside looking out.

Buddhists do not go around trying to convince non-Buddhists to believe as they do. They know that their beliefs may not be right for someone else but they are right for them. Hindus do not try to convince others to do as they do. Hindus are concerned with their own enlightenment. Here's a wonderful description of enlightenment from Lynn Forrest: "Enlightenment is simply the falling away of untruths and darkness so that the inner light, that has been there all along, is revealed. It is a process of unveiling, rather than one of attainment."

Your Christian religion has also led you down erroneous religious paths. Jesus did not start the Christian religion; his followers did many years after the fact. Jesus cannot save you; you must save yourself, and you do that according to how you live your life. Jesus did not die for your sins; your sins are your own, not his. He died to show you that there is no death; that is what Lazarus and the resurrection is all about. But your religion does not want you to know that because then they would have no power over you. As it is now, the church holds you in life-long fear that you will rot in hell if you don't obey the church's commands. The CHURCH'S commands, not God's commands. The church commands you by putting words in God's mouth. Is that the kind of bogus faith you want?

And what about the bible? Is that really God's word or are they words of Rulers of the Day speaking for God? (The times may change but people never do.) The Old Testament God is a cruel and vicious God who demands obedience upon the threat of death. What kind of God creates humans and then punishes them for being human? Plus the true God knows there is no such thing as death; there's only a change in vibration levels from low to higher.

It's time to start thinking about what you've been taught. If you've thought about it, weighed its pros and cons, investigated other religions, other philosophies, other ways of living, then you came to your decision on your own rather than being indoctrinated into your religion since birth. Now you won't feel the need to convince others of your faith because it is rock solid within you and it matters not what others believe. Now you can live your faith in peace and harmony, and you realize that if everyone lived their faith in peace and harmony, this world would be a heaven on earth.

So, how the heck can one Christian convince a nonbeliever? It isn't by using the Bible. That's getting the cart before the horse.

Many will listen then because we're doing what Jesus said to do. Jesus Saves...not us. We are frail beings and make mistakes. Jesus is undeniably kind hearted and good. Seldom will people say the opposite of Jesus.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

Tell me, why does a Christian need to convince a nonbeliever? If you believe in your own faith, that it's right for you, that's all that should matter to you. But if you need to convince someone else of your faith, then that tells me that you aren't convinced of it yourself. And because you aren't convinced of it, you must use biblical verses in order to make your point. Your religion has forbade you think for yourself so you must let the bible do your thinking for you. You don't realize how weak your argument is because you are on the inside looking out.

Buddhists do not go around trying to convince non-Buddhists to believe as they do. They know that their beliefs may not be right for someone else but they are right for them. Hindus do not try to convince others to do as they do. Hindus are concerned with their own enlightenment. Here's a wonderful description of enlightenment from Lynn Forrest: "Enlightenment is simply the falling away of untruths and darkness so that the inner light, that has been there all along, is revealed. It is a process of unveiling, rather than one of attainment."

Your Christian religion has also led you down erroneous religious paths. Jesus did not start the Christian religion; his followers did many years after the fact. Jesus cannot save you; you must save yourself, and you do that according to how you live your life. Jesus did not die for your sins; your sins are your own, not his. He died to show you that there is no death; that is what Lazarus and the resurrection is all about. But your religion does not want you to know that because then they would have no power over you. As it is now, the church holds you in life-long fear that you will rot in hell if you don't obey the church's commands. The CHURCH'S commands, not God's commands. The church commands you by putting words in God's mouth. Is that the kind of bogus faith you want?

And what about the bible? Is that really God's word or are they words of Rulers of the Day speaking for God? (The times may change but people never do.) The Old Testament God is a cruel and vicious God who demands obedience upon the threat of death. What kind of God creates humans and then punishes them for being human? Plus the true God knows there is no such thing as death; there's only a change in vibration levels from low to higher.

It's time to start thinking about what you've been taught. If you've thought about it, weighed its pros and cons, investigated other religions, other philosophies, other ways of living, then you came to your decision on your own rather than being indoctrinated into your religion since birth. Now you won't feel the need to convince others of your faith because it is rock solid within you and it matters not what others believe. Now you can live your faith in peace and harmony, and you realize that if everyone lived their faith in peace and harmony, this world would be a heaven on earth.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638

Well of course, we don't need to convince anyone of anything due to Free Will. Christians do it out of caring allegedly just as Atheists allegedly spread their belief too. Are you really going to deny the proliferation of Atheists websites? Come on! We can do that discussion all day long for atheists cannot say they don't equally prosthelytize with equal fervor.

Are you seriously going to discuss my statements as being illogical? My arguments were lengthy and full of reason, having spent an enormous amount of time carefully laying them out. Read all of them again, for my own thoughts are even more ordered than your own.

Are you going to say that quoting Biblical verses is any different than atheists quoting from the Bible or other famous scholarly writing? Come on! Be intellectually honest in the dialectic. Don't cop out with a change in a very ancient Greek practice of dialogue that has always been in this kind of format.

You don't know many Buddhists, do you? You're making a sweeping generalization. Look at the mindfulness training by the very famous and eloquent Thich Nhat Hanh. What about the Dali Lama? What about any number of famous Buddhists in many different nations. You can't be serious.

I completely disagree that Hindu people don't also discuss their religion. Of course they do and have with me. Rational people who are spiritual or not often discuss spiritual matters. Then by doing so, some people end up embracing them. You're self-deluded.

The question of God being cruel is a very common subject and I believe is the CHIEF reason atheists and agnostics reject God. I agree it seems cruel. Many verses are problematic. You won't get any argument that they are there. Are we arguing that God exists or that God is cruel at times from our perspective as solitary being on a miniscule planet which orbits a small sun, not the largest by any means? Are you saying if God is cruel sometimes that you won't believe in a God who has that kind of VAST POWER? Well if God does have all of that power than you do not believe at your doom, right? If God isn't real, then why are you worried?

Your post is not full of your assertions as much as questions for me, and so it would literally take about a hundred posts to even get close to answering them. Rather than do that (while I will gladly), why not propose what YOU believe and ask me one question or two?

The interesting aspect is that for an atheist, you're quite judgmental versus me who insists upon your freedom to believe what you wish as well as mostly working to take care of the temporal needs of the poor, which by definition is magnanimous and kind. You have a strange belief in Christians that I can assure you is not either my means of believing nor the way I interact with nonbelievers.

Your Christian religion has also led you down erroneous religious paths. Jesus did not start the Christian religion; his followers did many years after the fact. Jesus cannot save you; you must save yourself, and you do that according to how you live your life. Jesus did not die for your sins; your sins are your own, not his. He died to show you that there is no death; that is what Lazarus and the resurrection is all about. But your religion does not want you to know that because then they would have no power over you. As it is now, the church holds you in life-long fear that you will rot in hell if you don't obey the church's commands. The CHURCH'S commands, not God's commands. The church commands you by putting words in God's mouth. Is that the kind of bogus faith you want?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638

Jesus did begin a religious movement which began as soon as he begin preaching. We know that from the disciples who He immediately attracted.

What you're discussing is the state religion of Constantine which I admit happened far later. Prior is was a tiny movement.

Jesus by definition by dying on the Cross was done to redeem the whole world. He said it many times. That is the basis for Christianity, and if He didn't come back three days later and ressurected then it wouldn't be a religion. You don't understand much about Christian belief, do you?

If you're proposing your own belief system, then instead you should explain that carefully, not interweave Jesus within your idea. You should expand upon this self-saving, for what you say is not clear.

So, how the heck can one Christian convince a nonbeliever? It isn't by using the Bible. That's getting the cart before the horse.

Many will listen then because we're doing what Jesus said to do. Jesus Saves...not us. We are frail beings and make mistakes. Jesus is undeniably kind hearted and good. Seldom will people say the opposite of Jesus.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

And what about the bible? Is that really God's word or are they words of Rulers of the Day speaking for God? (The times may change but people never do.) The Old Testament God is a cruel and vicious God who demands obedience upon the threat of death. What kind of God creates humans and then punishes them for being human? Plus the true God knows there is no such thing as death; there's only a change in vibration levels from low to higher.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638

The Bible is the most authenticated ancient texts. We have very old fragments in the thousands of copies and mostly they are the same with minor changes such as scribes notes in the margins. Have you taken a class on the Bible before from a perspective of archaelogy? I can assure you by comparison that say the works of Aristoltle number in a miniscule amount and yet not one doubts that he existed or wrote his works.

Again you sound like a Gnostic who tries to say that the Old Testament god is a Demiurge. If you are a Gnostic then why won't you admit it openly?

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real

Quoting: simultaneous_final

FAIL

Not only is God's existance proven, but so are many many other things.

This is all easily proven in scripture. It needs to be read, absorbed, and retained. Took me around 10 years to get it.

Prayers sent for those left in the dark. You will need it.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1012969

Scripture isn't proof. If that is your logic, then you believe all scripture, not just biblical, which would mean you subscribe to all religions.There is no existence proven. In that 10 years, you should found the capacity for common sense.

Atheists and Christians usually don't argue specifically if there is a God or there is not a God on this newsgroup.

We usually argue if Jesus Christ existed at all and if Jesus Christ is God.

We argue if the current cannoized Christian Bible is with error or completely without error.

Since the Bible is full of contradictions, we know for a fact that it is with error. Did Judas hang himself or did he fall to his death? A Christian appologist might say that he hanged and when he was cut down, his guts burst out. People who believe that the Bible is without error constantly make these kind of contrived appologies. One appology might seem o.k., but when Christians make thousands of appologies trying to say that the Bible is without error and says the same thing, then they are lying to themselves and to us.

Now God is a subjective thing. I can worship breasts and bottoms and money. God to many people is a person that has never lied and a person who hates slavery. Well we know from the Bible that Jesus lied. John 7:8-10. A Christian appologist would say he just changed his mind. "but as it were in secret" is pretty deceptive for God. Jesus also said beat slaves even though the slaves didn't know they were doing wrong. Luke 12:47-48. A Christian appologist would say that it is just a parable, a story. But a story teaches, and Jesus was teaching slavery. If he was God, the kind of God I would worship, he would say, free your slaves.

Jesus Christ was never even mentioned together before 325 a.d. Jesus wasn't even a person's name before then. In fact, we do know who wrote several parts of the Bible because we can study early versions of it and see how it changed. We can learn a lot of things by what was mentioned early on and what wasn't.

For example, the entire New Testament and Christianity is based on Revelation, a book on Astrology by Apollonius, which was never meant to be publically read. We know that Lucius Plutarchus who was a very famous Roman and royal historian, was the original Luke of the Bible because both men have the same personal history, born in the same town, died in the same place. We know that the travels of Paul (Apollonius) were really the conquest paths of Titus. And we know that the religion of Mythras later was turned into the religion of Christianity.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1518033

You are correct. Suggested reading The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33254054

Some of that is rather silly and not supported by historical evidence. There have been Christians (Christ-followers) since the time of Jesus, and reading the fragment called the Magdelene document which is a portion of Mark, as well very early copies of Paul's letters show that it was written within 50 years of Jesus' death and ressurection. [link to www.bib-arch.org]

"On December 24, 1994, the Times of London ran a front-page story entitled “Oxford papyrus is ‘eyewitness record of the life of Christ.’” The article reported the claim that three papyrus fragments of Matthew’s Gospel in Magdalen College, Oxford, date to the mid-first century C.E. Instead of having been written a generation or more after Jesus’ death, as is—or was—the scholarly consensus, Matthew’s Gospel was written within a decade or so of the crucifixion by someone who was there at the time, so the article said. This, of course, would indeed be astounding and worthy of the treatment the Times gave it.“Not since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947,” the story continued, “has there been such a potentially important breakthrough in biblical scholarship.” The newspaper devoted nearly two full pages to the story, including an editorial that likened the alleged new discovery not only to finding the Dead Sea Scrolls, but also to Howard Carter’s discovery of Tutankhamun’s treasures and to Schliemann’s location of Troy. Two days later, the Times included an extended interview with Dr. Carsten Thiede of Paderborn, Germany, on whose scholarship this claim is based.Thiede’s claims are threefold. First, Matthew’s Gospel is an eyewitness account of the life and teaching of Jesus—so today’s Bible scholars (who date it to about 80 C.E.) are wrong, and the early church fathers were right after all. Second, at the time Matthew was written the formal separation of Christianity and Judaism had not yet occurred. Third, “Recognition of Christ’s divinity was made before the end of classical Judaism in 70 C.E.”

It is likely that Paul did not write many letters until the beginning of his second missionary journey in A.D. 49. There would not be much point in writing letters until he was already somewhat well traveled, and had people to write to. The oldest letter that we have is 1 Thessalonians, and it was written around A.D. 49-51. He continued writing letters up until his death in A.D. 67, so we have a range of A.D. 49-67 for all of his letters. Attempting to date the letters more accurately is like putting together an intricate puzzle that is missing many of the pieces. Some letters can be dated fairly precisely, such as 1 Thessalonians, and others not so much. I give the most probable dates of the letters below. Because of the arguments' length, their peripheral relevance to this book, and their tendency to put people to sleep, I do not put them here, but only give a very brief outline. For the full arguments, see the introductions mentioned above. They give slightly different dates, because they did not use Finegan as the source for the chronology of Paul's life."

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

Let me get this straight. So, the same people who argue that the mothods we currently use for dating are so inacurate they will believe none of it, because it disproved the bible as historical fact, now are using that same dating method to support their biblical artifact dates? I shouldn't have to point out the irony in your logic.

It's time to start thinking about what you've been taught. If you've thought about it, weighed its pros and cons, investigated other religions, other philosophies, other ways of living, then you came to your decision on your own rather than being indoctrinated into your religion since birth. Now you won't feel the need to convince others of your faith because it is rock solid within you and it matters not what others believe. Now you can live your faith in peace and harmony, and you realize that if everyone lived their faith in peace and harmony, this world would be a heaven on earth.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638

Actually, while raised a Christian, I am much older than you imagine and have intentionally chosen to believe in Christianity by studying it. I have believed it by using Faith and Reason in a very disciplined way by a mind trained in college and graduate school. I am hardly indoctrinated.

Are you indoctrinated? I wouldn't ever say such things, for do you not have Free Will, or are you an automaton? I don't know anyone save those who truly was indoctrinated by going through a starvation process mostly of carbohydrates and went through a long period of sleep deprivation and so became mentally broken through a cult process. Those folks are rare and universally identified, for example like the Unification Church. It's intellectually dishonest to say that Christians only believe because of indoctrination, for in reality they have autonomy and can easily choose what they believe, just as atheists choose what they believe.

I agree that some faiths if lived into might lead to a world of harmony. Most faiths in history can get along, although there are periods in which fundamentalists of all religions have persecuted each other. Even Buddhists who are known for being peaceful (which is a stereotype not always bourne out by reality) have engaged in ethnic cleansing. Your model is very simplistic and stereotypical.

In Gnostic thought, which seems to be your thought, Lucifer is the lightbringer and so in that religion, the one in which Christians feel is the incarnation of Evil is the last one they'd worship. I hope you're not believing in that discredited spiritual system.