XP and Agile

I am trying to recall when the term Agile was associated with XP. I don t recall the term Agile in XP2E. When does the term Agile and XP become associated?

Message 1 of 14
, Nov 20, 2006

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I am trying to recall when the term "Agile" was associated with XP.

I don't recall the term Agile in XP2E. When does the term Agile and XP
become associated?

Has Kent Beck ever included XP in the Agile arena?

Even though I am probably wrong it seems to me that Agile appeared
after XP.

Geoff
(back from vacation just in time to go on Thanksgiving vacation.
Sweeeeeet)

Doug Swartz

... Kent (and Ward and Ron), attended the Snowbird meeting in February 2001 where the Agile Manifesto was written. At this meeting, as described by Martin

Message 2 of 14
, Nov 20, 2006

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Monday, November 20, 2006, 5:38:11 PM, geoffrey_slinker wrote:

> I am trying to recall when the term "Agile" was associated with XP.

> I don't recall the term Agile in XP2E. When does the term Agile and XP
> become associated?

> Has Kent Beck ever included XP in the Agile arena?

Kent (and Ward and Ron), attended the Snowbird meeting in
February 2001 where the Agile Manifesto was written. At this
meeting, as described by Martin Fowler, the group of thought
leaders present decided that Agile was a better, more
descriptive, (perhaps more marketable) term for the kinds of
software processes they were doing, than "lightweight". See
Martin's article athttp://www.martinfowler.com/articles/agileStory.html.

> Even though I am probably wrong it seems to me that Agile appeared
> after XP.

In the context of software development, I believe you are
right. Of course, it also came after SCRUM, DSDM, ....

--

Doug Swartz

Ron Jeffries

Hello, geoffrey_slinker. On Monday, November 20, 2006, at 6:38:11 ... The term Agile was coined when we wrote the Agile Manifesto, in 2001. Kent Beck was

Message 3 of 14
, Nov 20, 2006

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Hello, geoffrey_slinker. On Monday, November 20, 2006, at 6:38:11
PM, you wrote:

> I am trying to recall when the term "Agile" was associated with XP.

> I don't recall the term Agile in XP2E. When does the term Agile and XP
> become associated?

> Has Kent Beck ever included XP in the Agile arena?

> Even though I am probably wrong it seems to me that Agile appeared
> after XP.

The term Agile was coined when we wrote the Agile Manifesto, in
2001. Kent Beck was there. XP had been being done since 1996. The
other Manifesto authors had been doing their various methods for
that long or longer. Scrum had been around for a long time.

Agile was invented as an umbrella term for what all of us were
doing, and appeared after the term XP or the term Scrum, which
predates XP.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
To follow the path:
Look to the master; Follow the master; Walk with the master;
See through the master; Become the master. -- Modern Zen Poem

Kent Beck

Geoff, Extreme Programming existed before the use of Agile Development to describe development practice. Some XPers were at the Snowbird workshop where the

Message 4 of 14
, Nov 27, 2006

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Geoff,

Extreme Programming existed before the use of "Agile Development" to
describe development practice. Some XPers were at the Snowbird workshop
where the Agile Manifesto originated. The word agile was chosen by the group
as easier to hear than extreme and the goal was marketing these ideas not
describing them.

I have chosen to remain focused on XP (and now Responsible Development)
because "agile" is not a defensible word. It is easier to sell to people
than the word extreme. It sounds less risky. Everybody would like to be
known as "agile", so without a big budget for branding and the willingness
to sue, inevitably the meaning of the word erodes.

I checked the text of XPE2e and "agile" does not appear. It seems to me that
the goal in calling XP agile development, if not to ease our practices into
a company with some degree of deception, is to imply that scrum, crystal,
DSDM and XP are equivalent menu choices. Claim to use any one of these and
you are agile! I don't believe that to be a useful description of any of the
processes or their outcomes.

I don't recall the term Agile in XP2E. When does the term Agile and XP
become associated?

Has Kent Beck ever included XP in the Agile arena?

Even though I am probably wrong it seems to me that Agile appeared
after XP.

Geoff
(back from vacation just in time to go on Thanksgiving vacation.
Sweeeeeet)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donald Roby

... I wasn t there, but I rather like the word agile, and think it was a good choice. Perhaps I ve just fallen for the marketing... I rather suspect also that

Message 5 of 14
, Nov 27, 2006

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Kent Beck wrote:

>Geoff,
>
>Extreme Programming existed before the use of "Agile Development" to
>describe development practice. Some XPers were at the Snowbird workshop
>where the Agile Manifesto originated. The word agile was chosen by the group
>as easier to hear than extreme and the goal was marketing these ideas not
>describing them.
>
>

I wasn't there, but I rather like the word agile, and think it was a
good choice. Perhaps I've just fallen for the marketing... I rather
suspect also that others in the group may have thought that the word
extreme wasn't appropriate to describe their processes quite outside the
marketing implications.

>
>I have chosen to remain focused on XP (and now Responsible Development)
>because "agile" is not a defensible word. It is easier to sell to people
>than the word extreme. It sounds less risky. Everybody would like to be
>known as "agile", so without a big budget for branding and the willingness
>to sue, inevitably the meaning of the word erodes.
>
>

From dictionary.com:

agile
–adjective
1. quick and well-coordinated in movement; lithe: an agile leap.
2. active; lively: an agile person.
3. marked by an ability to think quickly; mentally acute or aware: She's
95 and still very agile.

These meanings may change or erode, but I'm not sure what words'
meanings won't. Language does that.

The first definition seems particularly appropriate, and I think
reflects the reason the word was chosen.

How do you defend a word? How are the words "extreme" and "responsible"
more defensible than "agile"? How are they more descriptive of the
processes?

Not that Scrum and Crystal are at all descriptive of course. ;-) DSDM
would be if they hadn't abbreviated it to meaningless initials.

>
>I checked the text of XPE2e and "agile" does not appear. It seems to me that
>the goal in calling XP agile development, if not to ease our practices into
>a company with some degree of deception, is to imply that scrum, crystal,
>DSDM and XP are equivalent menu choices. Claim to use any one of these and
>you are agile! I don't believe that to be a useful description of any of the
>processes or their outcomes.
>
>

My perception of Snowbird is of an attempt to find common ground between
Scrum, Crystal, DSDM and XP (and maybe a few others...). I think you
succeeded, and the selection of the word agile was part of that success.
The statements of principles were probably more important, and probably
more difficult.

If some people understand this stuff little enough to view these as
"equivalent menu choices", that's unfortunate, but perhaps inevitable.
If they claim to use them or parts of them and be thereby agile, the
proof will be in their agility or lack thereof and in their success or
failure in their business.

On 27 Nov 2006, at 21:09, Kent Beck wrote:
[snip]
> I have chosen to remain focused on XP (and now Responsible
> Development)
> because "agile" is not a defensible word. It is easier to sell to
> people
> than the word extreme. It sounds less risky. Everybody would like
> to be
> known as "agile", so without a big budget for branding and the
> willingness
> to sue, inevitably the meaning of the word erodes.
[snip]

Isn't "Responsible" going to suffer the same fate? Surely everybody
would want to be responsible just like everybody would want to be
agile. There's a lack of positive antonyms.

BTW I'm curious whether you're considering RD to be a refinement of
the ideas from XP1E and XP2E, or is it more different in kind?

Cheers,

Adrian

Ron Jeffries

Hello, Kent and Geoff. On Monday, November 27, 2006, at 4:09:23 PM, ... My recollection is similar. There was no real consideration given to naming the whole

Message 7 of 14
, Nov 28, 2006

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Hello, Kent and Geoff. On Monday, November 27, 2006, at 4:09:23 PM,
you wrote:

> Extreme Programming existed before the use of "Agile Development" to
> describe development practice. Some XPers were at the Snowbird workshop
> where the Agile Manifesto originated. The word agile was chosen by the group
> as easier to hear than extreme and the goal was marketing these ideas not
> describing them.

My recollection is similar. There was no real consideration given to
naming the whole thing "extreme", though there was some discussion
about the word "extreme" being too extreme. At the time, I may have
used, and certainly thought, the word "wuss".

The intention behind the choice of "Agile", to my recollection,
included the giving of a common name to what seemed like similar
ideas regarding a better way to do software development than, say,
Waterfall, CMM, or, of course, Chaos. At that time, there was a
fairly collegial attitude among the various process proponents, and
I at least got a sense that we were all working on the same "kind of
thing", as opposed to the heavy process "other kind of thing". It is
possible that in my naivete and enthusiasm, I was overly optimistic
about the collegiality and commonality of purpose, but I don't think
I was: I think things changed later.

>
> I have chosen to remain focused on XP (and now Responsible Development)
> because "agile" is not a defensible word. It is easier to sell to people
> than the word extreme. It sounds less risky. Everybody would like to be
> known as "agile", so without a big budget for branding and the willingness
> to sue, inevitably the meaning of the word erodes.

It is certainly true that "agile" sounds less risky than "extreme"
and that it's easier to sell. I'm not sure what is meant by "not
defensible", nor am I aware of anyone branding and creating lawsuits
about Extreme or Scrum or Crystal. I would be opposed to that were
it to take place, as it seems to me to be counter to the values that
I still like to imagine we all hold in common.

I am not particularly troubled by the word "Agile", because it seems
to me to be a valid "umbrella" word, just as "animal" includes pigs,
chickens, and tigers, while excluding pines and marble. I am
troubled, however, by the fact that the meaning is, in my view,
vague and possibly eroding. So maybe I am troubled by the word after
all. I'll have to get back to you on that.

At the same time, we have not, as far as I can recall, been willing
to say that people aren't "doing XP" unless they are doing the 13 or
27 or umpty-leven practices ... despite the fact that each one of
them is an important step on the road to success. We have, in fact,
offered various kinds of advice that seem to approve of picking and
choosing the practices that one wants to use, to solve one's worst,
or next most interesting problem. The notion of picking and choosing
being OK will surely lead some people to pick and choose the wrong,
or too few, things. And yet ... people have to start somewhere. It's
a puzzlement.

We have seen, since the beginning, people saying "We tried XP and it
didn't work", only to find (in essentially every single case) that
they had not in fact ever done all the practices all the time. This
would be a lot like trying orchestral music without all the
instruments and then declaring it weak and somewhat thin. (See also
my "We tried baseball and it didn't work" article.)

These observations are causing me to move [back] in the direction of
putting more emphasis on specific practices / skills / behaviors)
that seem to me to be core to doing the difficult job of software
development well. In so doing, I try to be true to the "Agile"
method that I am most familiar with and most believe in, Extreme
Programming, also to be true to what I understand to be the common
values and principles of software development as written down in the
Agile Manifesto, and I try to be true to my own understanding of
truth, honesty, responsibility and the like.

>
> I checked the text of XPE2e and "agile" does not appear. It seems to me that
> the goal in calling XP agile development, if not to ease our practices into
> a company with some degree of deception, is to imply that scrum, crystal,
> DSDM and XP are equivalent menu choices. Claim to use any one of these and
> you are agile! I don't believe that to be a useful description of any of the
> processes or their outcomes.

I do not see deception in referring to XP as "Agile", any more than
there is deception in referring to a horse as an animal. There is
imprecision, perhaps, but when two people say XP they are already in
a realm of imprecision. Now the term COULD be used deceptively, just
as when little Susie asks Mom whether she can have an animal and
gets the OK, Mom probably does not expect Susie to bring home a
Deadly Black Tarantula (dayyy-oh). I do not advise deception in any
form, though I have been known to advise people not to blurt out
every single thing that they think. The morality of that will remain
between me and my Maker, to be discussed at some future date.
Distant future, I hope.

Neither does calling all of Crystal, Scrum, DSDM, and XP "Agile"
constitute a claim that they are equivalent. Certainly they are not,
just as the Bichon Frise, the Russian Blue, and the Tennessee
Walking Horse are not equivalent even though they are all "Animals".
Agile is a collective name for these ideas which we once thought --
and I still think -- to be common among all the methods now living
under the Agile tent.

So. Is "Agile" too vague and too easy to hide behind? Yes, I think
it is. Is the term deceptive? Not per se, though it could be in the
mouth of someone unscrupulous. Is XP better than Agile? Well, only
if Dumbo is better than Animal. But is XP one of the best kinds of
Agile? Damn betcha. Nothing finer, in my opinion, whether expressed
ala e1 or e2. And my hat's off to Kent, and all of you, for making
that the case.

Regards,

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled,
the humiliating question arises, "Why then are you not taking part in
them?" -- H. G. Wells

Israel Antezana

Kent, Could you explain more about the term Responsible Development ? why do you say XP is now Responsible Development? a new name for XP?. Thank you in

Message 8 of 14
, Nov 28, 2006

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Kent,

Could you explain more about the term "Responsible Development"? why do you say XP is now Responsible Development? a new name for XP?. Thank you in advance,

Extreme Programming existed before the use of "Agile Development" to
describe development practice. Some XPers were at the Snowbird workshop
where the Agile Manifesto originated. The word agile was chosen by the group
as easier to hear than extreme and the goal was marketing these ideas not
describing them.

I have chosen to remain focused on XP (and now Responsible Development)
because "agile" is not a defensible word. It is easier to sell to people
than the word extreme. It sounds less risky. Everybody would like to be
known as "agile", so without a big budget for branding and the willingness
to sue, inevitably the meaning of the word erodes.

I checked the text of XPE2e and "agile" does not appear. It seems to me that
the goal in calling XP agile development, if not to ease our practices into
a company with some degree of deception, is to imply that scrum, crystal,
DSDM and XP are equivalent menu choices. Claim to use any one of these and
you are agile! I don't believe that to be a useful description of any of the
processes or their outcomes.

>
>
> On 28 Nov 2006, at 22:27, Israel Antezana wrote:
>
> > Kent,
> >
> > Could you explain more about the term "Responsible Development"?
> > why do you say XP is now Responsible Development? a new name for
> > XP?. Thank you in advance,
>
> For the first question you might find:
>
> http://virtual.vtt.fi/virtual/xp2006/beck_keynote_xp2006.pdf
>
> of use.
>
> Adrian

Is there Audio to accompany the slideset?

- Dan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim Standley

I like both words. Extreme reminds me of Jim Williams at the end of Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil saying he continued to live in Savannah because

Message 11 of 14
, Nov 29, 2006

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I like both words. "Extreme" reminds me of Jim Williams at the end of
"Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" saying he continued to live in
Savannah because "it pisses off all the right people." Extreme hits a
nerve with some folks. Sometimes it helps challenge the status quo, but
I avoid it in certain crowds at work. Agile is gentler and helps talk to
them without seeming to attack their ways.

Kent Beck wrote:

>
> Geoff,
>
> Extreme Programming existed before the use of "Agile Development" to
> describe development practice. Some XPers were at the Snowbird workshop
> where the Agile Manifesto originated. The word agile was chosen by the group
> as easier to hear than extreme and the goal was marketing these ideas not
> describing them.
>
> I have chosen to remain focused on XP (and now Responsible Development)
> because "agile" is not a defensible word. It is easier to sell to people
> than the word extreme. It sounds less risky. Everybody would like to be
> known as "agile", so without a big budget for branding and the willingness
> to sue, inevitably the meaning of the word erodes.
>
> I checked the text of XPE2e and "agile" does not appear. It seems to me that
> the goal in calling XP agile development, if not to ease our practices into
> a company with some degree of deception, is to imply that scrum, crystal,
> DSDM and XP are equivalent menu choices. Claim to use any one of these and
> you are agile! I don't believe that to be a useful description of any of the
> processes or their outcomes.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kent Beck
> Three Rivers Institute
>

Charlie Poole

It s both gentler and vaguer... But I do the same thing at times. Charlie

Message 12 of 14
, Nov 29, 2006

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It's both gentler and vaguer...

But I do the same thing at times.

Charlie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Standley
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 4:47 PM
> To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [XP] XP and Agile
>
> I like both words. "Extreme" reminds me of Jim Williams at
> the end of "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" saying
> he continued to live in Savannah because "it pisses off all
> the right people." Extreme hits a nerve with some folks.
> Sometimes it helps challenge the status quo, but I avoid it
> in certain crowds at work. Agile is gentler and helps talk to
> them without seeming to attack their ways.
>
> Kent Beck wrote:
> >
> > Geoff,
> >
> > Extreme Programming existed before the use of "Agile
> Development" to
> > describe development practice. Some XPers were at the Snowbird
> > workshop where the Agile Manifesto originated. The word agile was
> > chosen by the group as easier to hear than extreme and the goal was
> > marketing these ideas not describing them.
> >
> > I have chosen to remain focused on XP (and now Responsible
> > Development) because "agile" is not a defensible word. It
> is easier to
> > sell to people than the word extreme. It sounds less risky.
> Everybody
> > would like to be known as "agile", so without a big budget for
> > branding and the willingness to sue, inevitably the meaning
> of the word erodes.
> >
> > I checked the text of XPE2e and "agile" does not appear. It
> seems to
> > me that the goal in calling XP agile development, if not to
> ease our
> > practices into a company with some degree of deception, is to imply
> > that scrum, crystal, DSDM and XP are equivalent menu
> choices. Claim to
> > use any one of these and you are agile! I don't believe
> that to be a
> > useful description of any of the processes or their outcomes.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Kent Beck
> > Three Rivers Institute
> >
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
>
> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Nick Robinson

We have an interesting internal discussion going relating to this very issue of the term Agile. I am wondering what peoples thoughts are here about the

Message 13 of 14
, Nov 30, 2006

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We have an interesting internal discussion going relating to this very issue of the term Agile. I am wondering what peoples thoughts are here about the vagueness of the term, especially if one refers to the fundamental values and principles behind the manifesto.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Jim Standley
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 4:47 PM
> To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [XP] XP and Agile
>
> I like both words. "Extreme" reminds me of Jim Williams at
> the end of "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" saying
> he continued to live in Savannah because "it pisses off all
> the right people." Extreme hits a nerve with some folks.
> Sometimes it helps challenge the status quo, but I avoid it
> in certain crowds at work. Agile is gentler and helps talk to
> them without seeming to attack their ways.
>
> Kent Beck wrote:
> >
> > Geoff,
> >
> > Extreme Programming existed before the use of "Agile
> Development" to
> > describe development practice. Some XPers were at the Snowbird
> > workshop where the Agile Manifesto originated. The word agile was
> > chosen by the group as easier to hear than extreme and the goal was
> > marketing these ideas not describing them.
> >
> > I have chosen to remain focused on XP (and now Responsible
> > Development) because "agile" is not a defensible word. It
> is easier to
> > sell to people than the word extreme. It sounds less risky.
> Everybody
> > would like to be known as "agile", so without a big budget for
> > branding and the willingness to sue, inevitably the meaning
> of the word erodes.
> >
> > I checked the text of XPE2e and "agile" does not appear. It
> seems to
> > me that the goal in calling XP agile development, if not to
> ease our
> > practices into a company with some degree of deception, is to imply
> > that scrum, crystal, DSDM and XP are equivalent menu
> choices. Claim to
> > use any one of these and you are agile! I don't believe
> that to be a
> > useful description of any of the processes or their outcomes.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Kent Beck
> > Three Rivers Institute
> >
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@... <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@... <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
>
> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

>
>
> On 28 Nov 2006, at 22:27, Israel Antezana wrote:
>
> > Kent,
> >
> > Could you explain more about the term "Responsible Development"?
> > why do you say XP is now Responsible Development? a new name for
> > XP?. Thank you in advance,
>
> For the first question you might find:
>
> http://virtual.