The 17" MacBook Pro has just been released. The 17" model has Firewire 800 and 8x dual layer Superdrive, both of which the 15.4" version lacks. The new MacBook Pro was presented during the NAB2006. The machine will cost $2799,- in the US, or round and about EUR 2879,- (differs per country) in the EU, or GBP 1999,- if you live in the UK.

"That E-series machine you linked to is a full 60% thicker than the Macbook."

No , I dont know where you get your data either , feel free to provide them.

"is your point that you can get a lot cheaper machine if you give up form-factor?""

No , not at all , its actually quite clear what my point was , that the dual core is not the only motivator in the high price the Macbook pro demand and that Dell do offer cheaper Dual core solution.

Now that I cleared that up lets entertain your other point.

"Is your point that you can get a lot cheaper machine if you give up form-factor? Sure, I don't think anybody would doubt that, but as someone who has done the whole "cheap Dell laptop" thing, let me tell you that it's not quite the bargain it seems to be at first. "

So your claiming that the Intel core Duo that Apple get are different in form factor and in price to the one Dell gets ? Your also claiming that because you bought cheap Dell model in the past that the newer higher end model with intel Core DUO will be the same ?

" Compare the price on something like a Thinkpad to a comparable Macbook Pro, and come back with that. "

Why ? Because rayiner think and said so ? Its of no value to me at all , if I feel that comparing a Dell to a Apple MacBook pro is interesting and that sharing that information is also valid in my view I will do so , I will also add that your thinking , again , that the Intel core Duo that IBM get differ from the One Dell and Apple get both in form factor and in price ?

"you can get a 14.1" ThinkPad with 2.0 GHz Core Duo and X1400 graphics for $2200"

Again your suggesting that Dell Core Duo differ from the One IBM and Apple get ? Or you simply changing the point of the discussion to show that if you use other parts you can come up with a smaller price ?

"The XPS notebook comparison is even more entertaining."

Are you again claiming that the Intel core Duo that the XPS get is different in price and in form factor then the one Apple get ? Or are you again changing the subject ...

"The *cheapest* XPS model, the M1710, costs $3400 when outfitted with a comparable CPU, HDD, and wireless options as the Macbook Pro 17" "

"That's about $300 less than the Macbook Pro for a closely comparable machine. "

Nope , see above

"Is a $300 "OS X tax" too much? "

Yes. But the Macbook pro come with more then just Mac OS X as a differentiator.

"I don't think so."

Thanks for sharing , but how can I put it gently , your false , erronous , personnal opinions is of absolutely no value to me ...

"Certainly, it's a hell of a lot more reasonable than it was for the PowerPC machines."

Cant compare Apple to oranges ...

"True, the machines themselves haven't gotten any cheaper"

Around the same price , but offering more hardware and software and service , sorry I have to disagree with your false conclusion.

"but the CPUs, instead of competing with the ones in bargain-basement PC laptops, are now comparable to those in the top PC laptops."

No , your tottaly wrong , they are the same , Intel core Duo from Apple , IBM , Gateway , HP , Sony , Dell , etc are all the same and come from the same vendor they all get it around the same price too.

"When compared to these top PC laptops, the Apple laptop prices are quite reasonable indeed."

Not on comparable hardware only. Not because of the Intel core Duo either. The Macbook pro as more hardware solution and as more software and a different OS , thats why it cost more not because of the price of Intel core DUO.

If one remove the similar hardware and the Mac OS X OS , you still have tons of other stuff :

In other words , The Intel Core DUO as absolutely Zero influence on the price difference as both have it , and its exatly the same part and Dell will offer it in cheaper model too.

You can keep bulshiting yourself that the model you offered compared , but last I looked they dont come with the same hardware , Mac OS X and its software and service and they cant be made to legally triple boot MAC OS X , Windows MCE 2005 , and GNU/Linux , etc ...

"the Apple laptop prices are quite reasonable indeed."

No , for 2,699.00 you can get more hardware that is faster from other vendor , you can get cheaper model too , its the overall value you get for 2,699.00 that is hard to beat.

No , I dont know where you get your data either , feel free to provide them.

From Dell's web-page. The E1705 is 1.6" thick. The Macbook Pro is 1.0" thick. Hence the Dell is 60% thicker, right?

So your claiming that the Intel core Duo that Apple get are different in form factor and in price to the one Dell gets ?

Hardly. However, the machine that Apple puts them in is quite a bit different in form factor and thus in price.

Your also claiming that because you bought cheap Dell model in the past that the newer higher end model with intel Core DUO will be the same ?

I bought a fairly high-end Dell laptop a few years ago (an Inspiron 8200, their top consumer model at the time). It cost about twice as much as the machines you linked to. I also had a newer Inspiron (I don't remember the model, it was one of the gray and blue ones) at work. Neither machine is something I'd purchase for myself again.

While Dell's latest cheap laptops might be completely different, I have a hard time believing the economics of the market have changed so much in three years that Dell can now afford to put quality case materials into a machine that costs half as much as my Inspiron did. There is a recent macnn thread in which people have posted pictures of themselves standing on their Thinkpads and Macbooks. My Inspiron's lid flexes so much just sitting in a bag that the track nub leaves marks on the screen.

Why ? Because rayiner think and said so ? Its of no value to me at all , if I feel that comparing a Dell to a Apple MacBook pro is interesting and that sharing that information is also valid in my view

Not because I say so, but because comparing the prices of completely different products doesn't give insight into anything. A Cessna costs a lot less than an F22 Raptor --- what insight does that knowledge afford you? They're two completely different planes for two completely different buyers.

Regarding the links to the machines: did you even try to configure them equally? The cheapest XPS notebook is $2600, yes, but that's a completely different configuration. Bump the processor up to 2.16 GHz, add in Bluetooth, a remote, and a 100GB 7200 RPM hard drive, and the cost goes up to $3393. For almost $600 extra, you get a faster GPU, but a machine that has no integrated camera, and is bigger and heavier to boot.

Really ?

Um, did you even try and configure the two machines the same???

No , your tottaly wrong , they are the same , Intel core Duo from Apple , IBM , Gateway , HP , Sony , Dell , etc are all the same and come from the same vendor they all get it around the same price too.

I didn't say otherwise.

As for the rest of your post, it hardly makes any sense at all. Of course everyone gets Core Duos for roughly the same price --- what is the point in you saying so? Of course you can get a cheaper laptop if it has less features, again, what is the point in saying so?

If you whant to categorize it as 60% thicker that way , I prefer the total space volume. The Mac Book pro is bit larger but slimer in height if thats not changed.

"However, the machine that Apple puts them in is quite a bit different in form factor and thus in price."

Its whats inside + software and service that make it at that price. The form could account for a small part of it but not the 900$ difference.

"I bought a fairly ... myself again. "

Personnal preference and older machine , I also pointed those other machine as a reference that the Dual core is not the reason why they ( macbook pro ) are pricier also that the XPS is not the only one to get them.

you see any model that look like any you owned previously ? No thats because they improved there casing so did the Apple one too.

"There is a ... leaves marks on the screen. "

I dont think the Dell people had that kind of test in mind when they designed there laptop.

"Not because I say so, but because comparing the prices of completely different products doesn't give insight into anything."

Comparing parts , intel core duo is going to be the same across the board.

"A Cessna costs a lot less than an F22 Raptor --- what insight does that knowledge afford you?"

I can buy more cesna with a hell lot less money ...

"Regarding the links to the machines: did you even try to configure them equally? "

Apple dont have the part Dell do , and Dell dont offer the parts Apple do , its pointless , please explain to me how I can have a magsafe and webcam in an xps or other Dell model ?

"Bump the processor up to 2.16 GHz, add in Bluetooth, a remote, and a 100GB 7200 RPM hard drive"

I tried adding Mac OS X and mag safe and webcam and bonjour , etc ... but the Dell rep said where not Apple ...

" For almost $600 extra, you get a faster GPU, but a machine that has no integrated camera, and is bigger and heavier to boot. "

Tried to play oblivion or any PC game on that MacBook Pro ?

"Um, did you even try and configure the two machines the same??? "

I am going to wait for the Dell price team to adapt to it first.

"I didn't say otherwise."

That whas my point , that the MacBook pro whas not priced higher vs the HP only because of the core Duo and that Dell had cheaper one if all you wanted was the CPU.

"As for the rest of your post, it hardly makes any sense at all."

Really , It rather prooved that there whas no point in making a comparaison on anything you offered.

"Of course everyone gets Core Duos for roughly the same price"

Hence its not what make the Macbook Pro be priced higher ...

"Of course you can get a cheaper laptop if it has less features, again, what is the point in saying so?"

I was only talking about the Dual core , you where the one to try and put me on the spot , your problem is you dont know all that is in the MacBook pro and you dont know the XPS that well either.

"again, what is the point in saying so?"

It show that the Dual core dont add 900$ to the price of the machine all by itself ... Because hopefully you where not trying to compare a MacBook pro offer as a gaming machine contender that would do well against any XPS offer ...