Dime: You’re as closely associated with the Cleveland Cavaliers as any player. What’s your view of the LeBron James situation?

BD: You know, you have to look at both sides of the alley. The only thing I had an issue with was “The Decision” show. I didn’t appreciate that, and I think as LeBron gets older he’ll look back and realize maybe he could have done that differently.

Other than that my view of the whole situation is, he worked hard, he became a free agent, he left: Get over it. Why does he owe Cleveland anything? That’s one thing about pro sports that pisses me off is this whole idea of loyalty, how a player is supposed to be loyal. But you take another guy on the team — say he’s from Cleveland but he’s the 12th guy on the team — is there a big uproar when they cut him? If a guy is averaging one point a game, is there an uproar?

Listen, this is a business. LeBron James made a business decision. Everybody that’s mad about “No loyalty,” that’s bull. If Dan Gilbert had for whatever reason decided to trade him — which likely would have happened toward the end of his career — it would have been, “Well, I hate to lose him.”

You can’t have it both ways. What LeBron did was perfectly fine. If he’d broken his leg or messed up his knees … If he’d become a free agent with two blown-out ACL’s, do you think they would have offered him a contract just because he’s the hometown hero? Hell no!

I hate that LeBron left Cleveland because I think they were actually really close to winning a championship. I hate it for that. But sitting here saying he’s done anything wrong? He did everything by the rules, so he deserves his opportunity to play in Miami or wherever he chooses to play. Get over it.

It's just sad, and I believe of all people trivassanno said it best a few days ago. The players don't care about the fans, the people who in essence are paying their salary and go and support them.

Just a very stupid attitude.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

peeker643 wrote:I actually agree 100% with Daugherty. Almost every word.

Peek, I respect you, but I really disagree.

I do think that there is a certain amount of loyalty that is owed to the fans of a franchise. These are people that spend their hard earned money on everything from tickets, merchandise, food and spend time away from doing other things to watch you play a game at a high level.

You can go on and on about, how indeed it is a business, but at a certain point people are going to go say "The hell with it". I think that over the course of around 6 months, that, this is the feeling of a lot of Clevelanders. Why do we, as fans, want to watch a couple of millionaires, act as if they don't even care to put up an effort and bring home a "W"?

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

Seriously, anyone believing these players would ever feel any other way is simply delusional and hasn't been paying attention for, oh, the past 30 years.

Here's LeBron on Boozer leaving from The PD years ago:

Boozer said he phoned James and his other Cavs’ teammates to tell them he was planning to leave. He said they realized the difference in offers between $68 million and $41 million was too much to pass up.

“It’s a hell of a blow. Anybody knows that,” James said. “My feeling was that Booze was going to be around. But when he called me, I told him he’s got to do what’s best for his family.”

James then said he liked the pickups the Cavs have made since the Boozer fiasco, in trading for defender Eric Snow and finesse forward Drew Gooden.

“After we lost Booze, I was like, ‘What are we going to do?’ But we’re making moves, so I’m happy,” he said.

LeBron's agent from that time:

And then there are those who consider Boozer just another athlete who went against his word for the love of money and left the Cavs empty handed. Agent Aaron Goodwin, who represents LeBron James, said no one can take total blame for the events that transpired during the week.

“You can’t really blame Boozer because he’s a basketball player and should always try to maximize his salary,” Goodwin said. “Gordon Gund and Jim Paxson stepped up in a way where most owners wouldn’t. They were showing respect to the rest of the team by trying to shore up one of the better players. . . . The fans have to understand that Gund would not have done this with anyone. He trusted him.”

“I don’t think Boozer is wrong in taking the money from Utah,” Goodwin said. “I don’t think he should’ve talked to Utah. I can’t fault him from taking the money and looking out for his family, but I fault the fact that he went into negotiations [after saying he would remain in Cleveland].”

The players don't care about us but shame on us if we ever believe otherwise. We've created a monster by paying big prices and we have to live with it. I love sports but I'm beginning to think I should treat it more like a movie or TV show. Enjoy the entertainment, keep it in context, and properly separate yourself.

As for Daugherty, I don't think he said anything too offensive. He acknowledged that The Decision was bad and as to LeBron "working hard," we'll have to respectfully disagree with him. But those two factors are our only legitimate gripes in this situation and I do think some people use them as an excuse when they're really just mad that he left. Daugherty's right to a degree when he says we have to move on. LeBron's obviously a jerk but what good does it do to dwell on it at this point?

Last edited by Kingpin74 on Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

peeker643 wrote:I actually agree 100% with Daugherty. Almost every word.

Peek, I respect you, but I really disagree.

I do think that there is a certain amount of loyalty that is owed to the fans of a franchise. These are people that spend their hard earned money on everything from tickets, merchandise, food and spend time away from doing other things to watch you play a game at a high level.

You can go on and on about, how indeed it is a business, but at a certain point people are going to go say "The hell with it". I think that over the course of around 6 months, that, this is the feeling of a lot of Clevelanders. Why do we, as fans, want to watch a couple of millionaires, act as if they don't even care to put up an effort and bring home a "W"?

They'd give loyalty if they got it. That's all BD is saying.

The owners don't give a shit about the players well being in any sport. Which is the chief reason it's not translated to fans.

The owners care about money. The players care about money. And it be best for fans to get this thru their heads, cause it'll save a lot of stress in your life.

Isn't Daugherty just spitting out the same opinion that many of us on these boards already have?- It's his right to leave, but the way he did it was his down fall which has made him the anti-Christ. Since he was a Cavalier his whole career, some people would just assume that he should have the loyalty opinion (and not remembering that his back caused an early retirement).

But theres a way you do it, and if it is indeed a business like Daughtery described, LeBron clearly again, did it the wrong way.

Giving the middle finger and burning every bridge possible in the greater north east ohio was indeed the wrong way, and it's a bit difficult for this "Fanbase" to get over the way it was handled.

Again, this isn't Jim Thome leaving for the Phillies for more cash, his wife is his rock, etc. THAT's easy to get over with in comparison

It's just a completely different scenario entirely. I don't think he particularly understands why Cavs fan is as upset as they are at the way things were handled with leading up to the decision. It had nothing to do with lebron simply leaving, it had everything in the world to do with how he just morphed into this super-douche right before our very eyes.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

But theres a way you do it, and if it is indeed a business like Daughtery described, LeBron clearly again, did it the wrong way.

Giving the middle finger and burning every bridge possible in the greater north east ohio was indeed the wrong way, and it's a bit difficult for this "Fanbase" to get over the way it was handled.

Again, this isn't Jim Thome leaving for the Phillies for more cash, his wife is his rock, etc. THAT's easy to get over with in comparison

It's just a completely different scenario entirely. I don't think he particularly understands why Cavs fan is as upset as they are at the way things were handled with leading up to the decision. It had nothing to do with lebron simply leaving, it had everything in the world to do with how he just morphed into this super-douche right before our very eyes.

How exactly does Brad not get it when his quote is:

You know, you have to look at both sides of the alley. The only thing I had an issue with was “The Decision” show. I didn’t appreciate that.

I can agree with BD on this, but anytime I hear a player start talking about "doing what is right for his family" in the context of a contract negotiation that quibbles over 10 million dollars in a 40+ million dollars it is hard to take them serious. As if that 10 million makes or breaks his families future, unreal how far out of touch with reality they can be.

Can't blame the guy for wanting to go to Miami though.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

How many avid watchers of CNBC watch it for pure entertainment and don't actually have a horse of their own--a horse made of money--in the race?

So, my point remains: Sports is sold to fans as a "one for all, all for one" proposition (literally so in certain NBA franchises) but really the only ones who practically benefit are those who get a paycheck. We understand players can leave when contracts are up. They can even bargain and deal in back rooms to do what's in their best interest. We don't love it, but we understand it. LeBron didn't just tamper (I for one don't give a shit about that), he played Cleveland fans for chumps on a world stage in primetime leaving his former organization in the lurch.

Time to get over it? Maybe. Though I don't know what "getting over it" consists of. Forgetting? Not going to do it. Forgiving? Tough, but sure. Eventually. Moving on? Ok. I can do that.

How many avid watchers of CNBC watch it for pure entertainment and don't actually have a horse of their own--a horse made of money--in the race?

So, my point remains: Sports is sold to fans as a "one for all, all for one" proposition (literally so in certain NBA franchises) but really the only ones who practically benefit are those who get a paycheck. We understand players can leave when contracts are up. They can even bargain and deal in back rooms to do what's in their best interest. We don't love it, but we understand it. LeBron didn't just tamper (I for one don't give a shit about that), he played Cleveland fans for chumps on a world stage in primetime leaving his former organization in the lurch.

Time to get over it? Maybe. Though I don't know what "getting over it" consists of. Forgetting? Not going to do it. Forgiving? Tough, but sure. Eventually. Moving on? Ok. I can do that.

Again.

Nobody is saying get over how it was done. Eventually, yes we should. Don't think there is a timetable.

He is a rat bastard of the highest order for how, just not what.

If you are not benefiting from watching, why are you watching? You want to go hometown kid angle, we will see how huge the uproar is when the Cavs send Jawad packing and who is loyal to who at that point.

Here were the Cavaliers, doing everything in their power to field the strongest complimentary players around James (not to mention the off the court stuff like the practice facility). Cap be damned. So that's something they wouldn't have done with a 12th man. Would the Cavs have been better off in the long run to tank the last year or so, just to have the space to sign him a Batman?

The fans did their part for the game environment.

Don't get me started on "getting over it." Reggie Miller was saying that during the Heat game- we were supposed to get over it before getting anything off our chest. And his fellow media types not only helped create the scene (starting with the ESPN Decision program), they were there at the game in full force because of it. I still am so proud of us not throwing stuff like a bunch of Pavlovs dogs for those guys.

So nah, I don't agree with BD. I can remain pissed as long as I damn well please.

pup wrote:I think the issue was with "everything they did to surround him with a support cast" sucked ass. They surrounded him with the talent that would struggle to win 30 games without him.

Of course you're right. But LeDouche was complicit in that. With his demands to win championships NOW while having one foot out the door, he was a lot of the reason he ended up with the team he ended up with.

pup wrote:I think the issue was with "everything they did to surround him with a support cast" sucked ass. They surrounded him with the talent that would struggle to win 30 games without him.

Of course you're right. But LeDouche was complicit in that. With his demands to win championships NOW while having one foot out the door, he was a lot of the reason he ended up with the team he ended up with.

Bullshit. Someone just had to be good and strong enough in their roles to tell him to shut up and play. Remember Kobe "demanding" the Lakers go get Kidd. Told them to trade Bynum for him? How did Kidd do on the Lakers?

They instead chose to go with a first time GM and a first time HC, both in over their heads. And LeBron took the opportunity to walk all over them, and they took it from him.

For a team in win now mode, they sure took a lot of projects in the draft. I know, save money to add vets. Blah. Passing on chances to buy into better spots in the draft so they could afford to over pay Andy, or add Parker and Moon.

This organization hit the lottery and wasted that income buying gimmicks and investing foolishly. At the end of the day, they surrounded the best player on the planet with a bunch of stiffs and acted surprised when he decided to take "the easier" way. Which, for the record, is the only way.

We are going to cry because he wouldn't tell Trevor Ariza he was staying so maybe he would sign with us. Fuck, Trevor Ariza is the exact type of player he was sick of being surrounded by. He wanted a stud to be by his side and have his back. Instead he kept getting complimentary players.

Was the end of the Boston series bullshit on his part? Of course.Was "The Decision" bullshit on his part? Of course.Was leaving this cast of stiffs bullshit on his part? No way.Is blaming LeBron for Danny Ferry and Mike Brown being Tweedledee and Tweedledum bullshit? Yes it is.

pup wrote:Was leaving this cast of stiffs bullshit on his part? No way.

Ehh wrong.

He had the right to leave for sure, but to state the reason as the rest of the roster was crap is total BS, on his part and everyone else's.

Again looking at his supporting cast in hindsight and not acknowledging the tank job at the same time is disingenuous. That supporting cast was just fine according to 95% of the NBA talking heads, and most of us fans (knowledgeable or not). The Cavaliers were consensus favorites to win it all heading into the playoffs. They even went so far as to rather easily handle an up & coming Bulls team and have a 2-1 lead on the eventual ECC Celtics. LeBron himself destroyed Boston in game 3 (IIRC) and game one he dominated in a rather quiet way as well.

When looking at his supporting cast you cannot exclude LeBron (the LeBron we've seen and known for the previous 6.8 seasons) from the equation. With that LeBron they were not stiffs as you and so many others say. A couple were for sure, as a group they were fairly solid and at times a pretty consistent supporting cast, 120 wins doesn't happen if they weren't.

It looked like they were stiffs in real time b/c let's face it 99.9% of us probably weren't seeing his efforts as a tank job in those exact moments in time.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

pup wrote:Was leaving this cast of stiffs bullshit on his part? No way.

Ehh wrong.

He had the right to leave for sure, but to state the reason as the rest of the roster was crap is total BS, on his part and everyone else's.

Again looking at his supporting cast in hindsight and not acknowledging the tank job at the same time is disingenuous. That supporting cast was just fine according to 95% of the NBA talking heads, and most of us fans (knowledgeable or not). The Cavaliers were consensus favorites to win it all heading into the playoffs. They even went so far as to rather easily handle an up & coming Bulls team and have a 2-1 lead on the eventual ECC Celtics. LeBron himself destroyed Boston in game 3 (IIRC) and game one he dominated in a rather quiet way as well.

When looking at his supporting cast you cannot exclude LeBron (the LeBron we've seen and known for the previous 6.8 seasons) from the equation. With that LeBron they were not stiffs as you and so many others say. A couple were for sure, as a group they were fairly solid and at times a pretty consistent supporting cast, 120 wins doesn't happen if they weren't.

It looked like they were stiffs in real time b/c let's face it 99.9% of us probably weren't seeing his efforts as a tank job in those exact moments in time.

Dude, the supporting cast blew. And blows.

You're seeing it every night.

We just hate to admit he was THAT good. Which he was.

Just like the supporting cast he took to the finals - with Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall, Damon Jones ans Sasha Pavlovic playing big minutes. Guys that aren't smelling the league a few years later.

Again, he's a prick, he quit in the playoffs last year for whatever reason. But the notion the guy ruins teams and shrunk in big moments, or most laughable - didn't carry a sorry group to heights they had no business being at.... people getting downright delusional cause he f'd us over.

What LBJ did to the Cavaliers off the floor is clouding what he did on it.

So, he took the sorriest roster ever to the finals, with only one other possible team in the argument, and this years Cavs roster.....can you name two teams in the Association you WOULDN'T swap entire rosters with? Cause trading with Monnesota or New Jersey isn't close to a fair trade right now.

pup wrote:Bullshit. Someone just had to be good and strong enough in their roles to tell him to shut up and play.

Well, the good part of that is that we never would have had to worry about the Decision 'cause he would've been long gone by then. Apparently he only listens to Dwayne Wade.

For a team in win now mode, they sure took a lot of projects in the draft.

Go back to the drafts and look who was picked after Brown, Boobie, Hickson, and Eyenga. I'll spot you Dejuan Blair and his wobbly knees, but is there anyone else there that wouldn't have been just another scrub?

Passing on chances to buy into better spots in the draft so they could afford to over pay Andy, or add Parker and Moon.

Oh wait, nevermind, you're just pulling shit out of your ass again.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

Two things. One: Its not just him. I know Z and Shaq reek of char at this point of their careers but there's still a hell of a drop-off from having a pair of seven footers who can even mediocrely D up to having Andy and Hollins as your only true big men. Delonte had a hand in keeping the offense running. And I'm more and more convinced that Roker got more mileage out of his squad than Coach 121-63.

Two: The team was built around Lebron and Roker's D schemes and grew dependent on both. There's no leadership, the only other glue on the roster left with Gloria for Minnesota. The team needs an identity, and there's none there, and it ain't walkin' through any doors unless Grant has something in the works.

Was Bron a tremendous part of the difference between now and then? Fuck yes. But he wasn't all of it.

So, he took the sorriest roster ever to the finals, with only one other possible team in the argument, and this years Cavs roster.....can you name two teams in the Association you WOULDN'T swap entire rosters with?

Minnesota is that bad, New Jersey is that bad, Sacramento is that bad, Philadelphia is that bad and has albatross contracts, Detroit is that bad and has albatross contracts... Hell, just read Basketbawful like I do.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

Two things. One: Its not just him. I know Z and Shaq reek of char at this point of their careers but there's still a hell of a drop-off from having a pair of seven footers who can even mediocrely D up to having Andy and Hollins as your only true big men. Delonte had a hand in keeping the offense running. And I'm more and more convinced that Roker got more mileage out of his squad than Coach 121-63.

Two: The team was built around Lebron and Roker's D schemes and grew dependent on both. There's no leadership, the only other glue on the roster left with Gloria for Minnesota. The team needs an identity, and there's none there, and it ain't walkin' through any doors unless Grant has something in the works.

Was Bron a tremendous part of the difference between now and then? Fuck yes. But he wasn't all of it.

So, he took the sorriest roster ever to the finals, with only one other possible team in the argument, and this years Cavs roster.....can you name two teams in the Association you WOULDN'T swap entire rosters with?

Minnesota is that bad, New Jersey is that bad, Sacramento is that bad, Philadelphia is that bad and has albatross contracts, Detroit is that bad and has albatross contracts... Hell, just read Basketbawful like I do.

Z stunk last year, as he did the past several. Stunk - done.

Shaq wasn't around most of the time, when he was, he was zero help.

And, missing the point. New Jersey, Minnesota and Sacremento - there ain't one GM on God's green earth that would take the Cavs roster over their for the future. Not a one.

There is one difference between this year and last year regarding the Cavs.

One.

If he were here, minus Z and Shaq (and whatever other garbage I'm forgetting isn't here anymore) they'd be among the frontrunners in the East.

So now it's Roker's defensive schemes and the Shaqtus? Before the Queen left these were two problems - Roker not knowing O and Shaq slowing them down.

The Queen was as much of a whole team as anyone in the history of that sport. Especially those that went deep into playoffs.

Being a Hall of Fame prick and a Hall of Fame player are not mutually exclusive. As a matter of fact it's not the least bit suprising. Only differences here is the level of player, and he did it to us.

Here's the thing I wanna know about the whole "the supporting cast blows" argument. I'm not saying I'd take any of the previous years' casts over the Heat's current one, but something doesn't sit well with me every time someone vomits all over the Cavs' past rosters.

What was the big difference between the 60 win teams of the last two years vs. the 50 win teams from '05-'08? The supporting cast was supposedly garbage every year, but what accounted for those ten wins? Did LeBron improve THAT much to carry the Cavs into the elite? Shut me up if you think he did, but the roster was obviously upgraded. Not enough so that there was more than one superstar to haul the load, but the lack of star power brought in can be laid on the Whore as much as it can be laid on Ferry. The Whore doesn't get to play the victim without taking on some of the accountability for what he left behind.

Madre amplifies my point well, and metalhead is also correct in his own right.

To suggest it was all LeBron and the supporting cast blew is simply denying he intentionally tanked it, and set out to lose the series on purpose. There is simply no denying that. We've seen what he can do to that Celtic team and we've seen what that Cavs team can do to them. The dude gave a half ass effort (pick the % if you like, 60% 85% whatever). That roster needed a 95-100% of LeBron to be true to themselves and perform well, it was known as the team was built. Hence the team being built AROUND Lebron, as it was.

Nobody is denying LeBron is good or even great and certainly not just b/c "we're mad at him", that is just absurd and a weak attempt and trying to play the reasonable objective take card.

The previous supporting casts blew, or blew a helluva lot more and LeBron proved that by taking that team on his back in 07 to the Finals with virtually a superhuman performance in that post season.

In the end although it is a star driven league you still need a group of guys around you to win it all, Kobe does, Wade does, the big three do. Whether it is obtaining the top seed or making through the playoffs, you have to have capable players around you and LeBron did and most of the world agreed, but now that we're in the year 1AB nobody wants to look bad by admitting it.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Madre amplifies my point well, and metalhead is also correct in his own right.

To suggest it was all LeBron and the supporting cast blew is simply denying he intentionally tanked it, and set out to lose the series on purpose. There is simply no denying that. We've seen what he can do to that Celtic team and we've seen what that Cavs team can do to them. The dude gave a half ass effort (pick the % if you like, 60% 85% whatever). That roster needed a 95-100% of LeBron to be true to themselves and perform well, it was known as the team was built. Hence the team being built AROUND Lebron, as it was.

Nobody is denying LeBron is good or even great and certainly not just b/c "we're mad at him", that is just absurd and a weak attempt and trying to play the reasonable objective take card.

The previous supporting casts blew, or blew a helluva lot more and LeBron proved that by taking that team on his back in 07 to the Finals with virtually a superhuman performance in that post season.

In the end although it is a star driven league you still need a group of guys around you to win it all, Kobe does, Wade does, the big three do. Whether it is obtaining the top seed or making through the playoffs, you have to have capable players around you and LeBron did and most of the world agreed, but now that we're in the year 1AB nobody wants to look bad by admitting it.

Superhuman performance in the post season was worse than the one in '09.

And, yes, you need a good group of guys to win it all. Lebron didn't have close to that, which is directly to the point.

Not sure what more proof you need than watching the abomination every GD night.

Kevin Martin having a huge night opposite Daniel Gibson. Really?

And without question FUDU, people being pissed at him is effecting their opinions. Undeniable. Christ, read the threads. Hell, people's pre-season predictions were tainted by this. At least I would hope.

metalhead9x9 wrote:Here's the thing I wanna know about the whole "the supporting cast blows" argument. I'm not saying I'd take any of the previous years' casts over the Heat's current one, but something doesn't sit well with me every time someone vomits all over the Cavs' past rosters.

Take the time to go look back when I was calling the rest of the Cavs the 09 Knicks without LeBron. This isn't new. Is Mo Williams the second best teammate LeBron has had since Boozer? Tell me where Mo falls on any other good team in the league. Do the same with the 3rd best Cav. And 4th. You will be sick. In EVERY series the Cavs have played in the last 4 post seasons, we have had the best player on the floor and the other team has occupied anywhere between the next 3 and 5 best players on the floor.

What was the big difference between the 60 win teams of the last two years vs. the 50 win teams from '05-'08? The supporting cast was supposedly garbage every year, but what accounted for those ten wins? Did LeBron improve THAT much to carry the Cavs into the elite? Shut me up if you think he did, but the roster was obviously upgraded. Not enough so that there was more than one superstar to haul the load, but the lack of star power brought in can be laid on the Whore as much as it can be laid on Ferry. The Whore doesn't get to play the victim without taking on some of the accountability for what he left behind.

The garbage supporting cast was a little better and more versatile for the 60 win teams. Still complete garbage.

Danny Ferry shoulders 100% of the blame for the talent on that roster. It was his freaking job. Another reason LeBron bailed. This organization was far too quick to allow it to look like he was running the entire show. And shoulder the blame for the inadequacies of this roster as well as the blame for not carrying that roster to Titletown. Was he involved in decisions? Certainly. Does the running line of the org have to be "Let us check with Bron"? No way.

Like I said up top. This org failed the day it hired a first time GM and a first time HC to run this show. Just like on the floor when he had to be the best ball handler, scorer, rebounder and defender for the team to have a shot, maybe LBJ had to take over the GM duties because the GM couldn't.

We nearly set a record for posts to fire Mike Brown. Yet LBJ cannot see how in over his head that guy was? For years?

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Scroll up. I already said Lebron was a tremendous part of the Cavs success. I ain't denying that.

But he wasn't all of it.

And there's a reason the Heat didn't get on a tear until DWade got his mojo back.

Defending what I am saying while not even realizing it.

He finally has someone he trusts to be his partner. Someone talented enough to get his back. And he has spent 30 or so games trying to get Wade on the right track, because that is what is needed to win a title. 2 studs. Another solid. And 5 role guys. Not 1 stud and 7 role guys.

Huge difference between a bunch of role players with no Robin and a supporting cast of complete garbage, huge difference.

LeBron James could get 33-36 wins by being on any roster in the league, that has kind of been the consensus his entire career, hell IIRC it's been said in here numerous times. Along with that assumption is that any supporting cast can get you another 6-10, meaning a playoff birth. LeBron doesn't win you 50+ games by himself, not even close. Is he a large part of the majority of wins, hell yeah, as Madre has stated.

Bottom line is 127 wins in the past two season, with two #1 seeds, and an ECF appearance, it doesn't happen with a useless garbage filled supporting cast.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Huge difference between a bunch of role players with no Robin and a supporting cast of complete garbage, huge difference.

LeBron James could get 33-36 wins by being on any roster in the league, that has kind of been the consensus his entire career, hell IIRC it's been said in here numerous times. Along with that assumption is that any supporting cast can get you another 6-10, meaning a playoff birth. LeBron doesn't win you 50+ games by himself, not even close. Is he a large part of the majority of wins, hell yeah, as Madre has stated.

Bottom line is 127 wins in the past two season, with two #1 seeds, and an ECF appearance, it doesn't happen with a useless garbage filled supporting cast.

No, he would win 50, not 33. Good God man, how is what you're currently watching not proof?

For the millionth time you cannot view the remains of the post LeBron roster in a vacuum. It not only a subjective view point but it is totally disingenuous. There is a reason they are called a SUPPORTING cast, sheesh. But your revisionist history lesson is amusing.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:For the millionth time you cannot view the remains of the post LeBron roster in a vacuum. It not only a subjective view point but it is totally disingenuous. There is a reason they are called a SUPPORTING cast, sheesh. But your revisionist history lesson is amusing.

Bottom line:

What's the difference between last year's 60 win Cavs team, and this years 30 win one.

So, they don't have Shaq. And they don't have Z, who stunk.

And, they didn't get Jamison till post deadline, who incidentally, is the team's best player this year.

They won 60 last year with Lebron, they'll win 30 this year without - unless you can account for the other reasons they'll have half as many wins.

Can't make it any simpler. Can see it each and every night.

Really, that simple.

And, I know it's the rule of the carny here. Not a popular argument from my side because it seems pro Lebron. Again, instead of Lebron call him player X, and do the excercise between this year's and last I described above.

With player X, Cavs top seed. Without player X, you got some ping pong balls.

Unless, of course, you're going to tell be with a straight face that Z, Shaq, and a few months of D Block changed the fortunes of the franchise.

JMFC Lead you're not even talking about the same thing as the rest of us anymore.

You keep talking about the current post LeBron Cavaliers (and how they suck, which they do) and they rest of us (at least I know I am) are talking about the supporting cast LeBron had while here. Those same guys that were here with #23 were not put on a team together to compete for a title without the talents of such a player. They were ADDED to a team to surround such a player in hopes of winning a title (many of them with a specific role or two to play on a team with LeBron). Something they came pretty damn close to doing in 09 before getting legitimately beat, something they were favored to do and on their way to in 2010 up until LeBron tanked the playoffs. As a team they were amongst the elite in some categories like 3pt shooting, defense and near the top in rebounding. LeBron certainly wasn't in the tops of those categories individually, but he had team mates that most certainly were (the past two seasons) and team mates that had equal or better numbers than him in those categories. Point being not that LeBron can't do those things, but again he didn't account for all that by himself, he couldn't. He had some guys that could get the job done on most nights, and what do you know they did more times than not to the tune of 120 freakin wins, it just doesn't get any more simple to explain than that. I mean shit LeBron wins 50 by himself according to you, well what happened in seasons 1 and 2.

Now that group of guys, with a few minor additions (of relatively equal peers) is not a SUPPORTING cast but they are THE cast, that's it. So their roles have most certainly changed and now some of them have to do things that either A) they just can't or B) they weren't asked to do in the past with LeBron in the mix.

Not to mention you've done your damnedest to try to make it sound as if some of us are saying LeBron doesn't make much difference or that he is not very good. Not one of us has come close to saying that, not once.

All I can figure is you're being obtuse or you are mad in hindsight b/c you lost money on that series and feel foolish. Either way the last word is yours b/c frankly I have little idea of what you are talking about on this anymore.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:JMFC Lead you're not even talking about the same thing as the rest of us anymore.

You keep talking about the current post LeBron Cavaliers (and how they suck, which they do) and they rest of us (at least I know I am) are talking about the supporting cast LeBron had while here. Those same guys that were here with #23 were not put on a team together to compete for a title without the talents of such a player. They were ADDED to a team to surround such a player in hopes of winning a title (many of them with a specific role or two to play on a team with LeBron). Something they came pretty damn close to doing in 09 before getting legitimately beat, something they were favored to do and on their way to in 2010 up until LeBron tanked the playoffs. As a team they were amongst the elite in some categories like 3pt shooting, defense and near the top in rebounding. LeBron certainly wasn't in the tops of those categories individually, but he had team mates that most certainly were (the past two seasons) and team mates that had equal or better numbers than him in those categories. Point being not that LeBron can't do those things, but again he didn't account for all that by himself, he couldn't. He had some guys that could get the job done on most nights, and what do you know they did more times than not to the tune of 120 freakin wins, it just doesn't get any more simple to explain than that. I mean shit LeBron wins 50 by himself according to you, well what happened in seasons 1 and 2.

Now that group of guys, with a few minor additions (of relatively equal peers) is not a SUPPORTING cast but they are THE cast, that's it. So their roles have most certainly changed and now some of them have to do things that either A) they just can't or B) they weren't asked to do in the past with LeBron in the mix.

Not to mention you've done your damnedest to try to make it sound as if some of us are saying LeBron doesn't make much difference or that he is not very good. Not one of us has come close to saying that, not once.

All I can figure is you're being obtuse or you are mad in hindsight b/c you lost money on that series and feel foolish. Either way the last word is yours b/c frankly I have little idea of what you are talking about on this anymore.

There aren't too many guys alive making a living betting NBA sides, and virtually none doing it betting NBA playoffs. So, a positive EV guy like Leadman did not lose money on that series. Nor did he make any.

Again, you're proving the point without knowing it. You wanna take a guess why the Heat will be among the leaders in 3 point field goals? Just as the Cavs "miraculously" were last year. Maybe the guy requiring the triple team, who is amongst the elite passers in the game played a role.

Think it's a little easier to weakside rebound when that guys around?

And on. And on.

Fact: they've got a bottom five roster in all the league this year.

Fact: last year they won 60 games.

And "supporting cast" is a bail out. If they are truly just a supporting cast, well, again, to my point - they just aren't that good.

By the way, in seasons one and two he was a rookie, than a second year player. Never said the supporting cast was never upgraded. Just went from a one to three on the ten point. You could throw a handful of rocks into the D league and hit guys who were better than Donyell or David "break my nose on a lay-up" Wesley.

My last word - about the biggest one man show in the history of the league.