Super Moderator

Greetings and welcome! This is the first thread to what I hope will become both a fruitful, informative, and fun side project to our CAP Project. In these series of threads, we'll be finalizing the pre-evos for our Gen4 CAPs; you can read more about the process and rules here. In general, this will follow the format of the CAP Pre-Evo process, but with some slight modifications. This means that there will be public discussions, submissions, and polls for the public to participate in.I'll be heading up this first project on Syclar, the pre-evolution of Syclant.

The purpose of this thread is for me to provide an overview of what Syclar's process will look like. Below is a list of the steps I envision happening in this process. While they are not necessarily in order, they are more for the purpose of getting everyone on the same page before we dive in. Your job in this thread is to go back through the CAP Process Archive to learn as much about Syclant as you can. Use both that resource and the CAP site Syclant page to become informed. Also, provide any suggestions and thoughts you have on this process in this thread. If I've forgotten to include something, please let me know by posting! This is not a finalized system; rather, it is a place for us all to touch base and start on the right foot. Thanks for your time.

And now for the process:

Typing Discussion & Polls
As a general rule of thumb, most CAP pre-evolutions should host at least one of the typings of the CAP in question. In this stage, we'll discuss the possibilities and vote as a community.

Ability Discussion & Polls
At this point, we'll discuss the abilities of the Gen4 CAP and which ones should be present on the pre-evolution. There will be discussion first and then polling afterwards.

Stat Submissions & Polls
Although X-Act gave some stats (35/58/35/57/32/60), they are unofficial. We will be hosting submissions and polling with the goal of creating a believable stat spread in relation to the evolved CAP.

Movepool Submissions & Polls
Naturally, the Gen4 CAPs have a movepool that needs to be considered when creating a movepool for its pre-evolution. We'll be working on creating level-up movepools that are plausible with the CAP in question.

Pokedex Entry Submissions & Polls
Our CAP writers will get a chance to shine within this step. Remember, we'll be following the format of DP Pokedex entries, so we won't be referring to any BW ones.

Official Art Submissions & Polls
Even though we have art already submitted in the form of CyzirVisheen's original Syclar artwork, it would be awesome to have some finalized artwork to show off to the world. This will also give artists a chance to contribute in a meaningful way to our project.

Final Product
The finish line! I'll finalize weight, height, and other miscellaneous flavor at this point. Also, we'll meet up with the CAP sprite revamp thread (run separately by Wyverii) to finalize the sprites for both Gen4 and Gen5 Syclar. This might get incorporated into our process; I'll have to chat with her about it.

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For the sake of nostalgia, this thread will be open for 48 hours. Let's get crackin'!

I'm a little confused about the artwork session, in the previous thread you said that there would be no new original artwork because the Pre-evos are already established in the community, so if we have art submissions is it going to be submissions of what we already know to be the Pre-evo? So we would just draw the sprite in a different way to solidify it as an art concept? Or would we be making original designs?

As well if we already have art designs then typing is kind of moot for a lot of them because its already clearly established and since these are just for flavour we could skip that step for most of them.

All I know is, Bug/Ice is a dreadful typing: 4x weak to both Fire and Rock, meaning it almost has to be put on a rain team to weaken those fire moves and it desperately needs Rapid Spin support to keep Stealth Rocks off the field. Not to mention Bug/Ice has very few resistances - I don't remember what Bug has available (besides Ground and Fighting, the latter of which cancels out a weakness of Ice's), but Ice is only resistant to itself. A fully-evolved Pokemon could swing that type combo, maybe, but definitely Syclant shouldn't have both.
What's the fully evolved thing called again? Syclar? How was it supposed to be used with that typing, anyway? I obviously wasn't here for that one's design.

Yeah, unless we give it some REALLY optimal stats and/or tail glow, Syclar is sadly going to be completely outclassed by just about every other attacker in LC.

Still cute as hell though, but it's probably going to wind up being the Syclant of LC CAP (which is funny since its Syclant's pre-evo)

Since we're discussing typing next and this thread's pretty much a general overview, I believe that while for a competitive standpoint its pretty much suicide, from a flavor standpoint I don't see how we can do anything other than ice/bug. I mean look at it, its very clearly a bug and it has a chunk of ice sticking out of its ass.

Flavor is the only priority when it comes to creating these pre-evolutions.

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this cannot be stressed enough. When we create a CAP for competitive reasons, we have many things that this prevo project doesn't - chief among them, a concept, stat ratings, and a solid grasp of the metagame. When we do Prevos, all the competitive mumbo-jumbo goes out the window. We may do an LC CAP later, but that's not what these prevos are going to be

With that in mind, I don't picture Syclar changing much when it evolves into Syclant. There are tons and tons of pokemon that don't get a new typing, or new abilities, or what-have-you when they evolve and I think Syclar should be one of these. What I picture is walking along Route 216 and chancing upon this cute little bug that lived its entire life in the mountains, learning how to survive by hiding in rocky crags n stuff. I think Mountaineer/Compoundeyes is just as good an ability set for Syclar as for its evo, and that Ice/Bug is a perfectly good typing as well.

That is a good point Pwnemon. Most pokemon don't change much, so maybe Syclar should be a lot like Syclant. I just thought it'd be cool to have this cute little bug type evolve into this awesome looking pokemon with an awesome unique typing that is just awesome. Did I mention awesome yet? :P

Orange Islands

With that in mind, I don't picture Syclar changing much when it evolves into Syclant. There are tons and tons of pokemon that don't get a new typing, or new abilities, or what-have-you when they evolve and I think Syclar should be one of these. What I picture is walking along Route 216 and chancing upon this cute little bug that lived its entire life in the mountains, learning how to survive by hiding in rocky crags n stuff. I think Mountaineer/Compoundeyes is just as good an ability set for Syclar as for its evo, and that Ice/Bug is a perfectly good typing as well.

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I sort of see this thing in much the same way. When I discovered Joltik and Galvantula in BW, I immediately thought of Syclar/Scylant. They are weirdly pretty analogous with each other, matching Bug Types and having adorable Prevos which turn into killing machines when they evolve.

@Birkal, I totally agree with the steps that have been laid out. Shouldn't take that long to sort out most of the basic stuff :)

EDIT: Also; one of the links in the OP is wrong ;) Normal Users can't access that Syclant page you linked.

Moderator

After looking over Syclant a bit a definitely have to agree with pwnemon and DHR, especially on DHR's comparison to Joltik/Galvantula. Syclar really seems like a Pokemon that is cute and uniquely typed, but is really just a smaller weaker version of its evolution. Outside of scaled down stats and movepool, I personally don't think much will need to be changed.

I'm a little confused about the artwork session, in the previous thread you said that there would be no new original artwork because the Pre-evos are already established in the community, so if we have art submissions is it going to be submissions of what we already know to be the Pre-evo? So we would just draw the sprite in a different way to solidify it as an art concept? Or would we be making original designs?

As well if we already have art designs then typing is kind of moot for a lot of them because its already clearly established and since these are just for flavour we could skip that step for most of them.

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If I understand correctly, I believe the point of the art stage is to generate "official" artwork for the prevo, akin to what is normally produced in the art stage of a CAP. We have some basic sketches and some sprites, but no definitive piece of art. Its sort of like reversing the process from a normal CAP. Instead of taking the art and making a sprite based on it, we will be taking the sprite, and making the art based on its design.

After looking over Syclant a bit a definitely have to agree with pwnemon and DHR, especially on DHR's comparison to Joltik/Galvantula. Syclar really seems like a Pokemon that is cute and uniquely typed, but is really just a smaller weaker version of its evolution. Outside of scaled down stats and movepool, I personally don't think much will need to be changed.

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These are pretty much my thoughts as well. Almost everything about Syclant would only have to be adapted slightly to make sense on Syclar.

I have to agree with everyone else, the Syclar/Syclant line is pretty much the same as the Joltik line, the Squirtle line, or the Totodile line. Each evo just gets better stats and looks more like a badass.
EDIT: How does Syclant/Syclar NOT get Rock Climb!? They have Moutaineer and live on mountains! This is a flavor mistake that needs to be remedied!

I feel as though the Attack, Special Attack and Speed on it can be bumped up a little seeing the large bump with only 1 evo looks "unnatural" for a pre-evo pokemon that evolves into a fast mixed attacker. I was trying to think as non-competitive as possible when typing this.

Super Moderator

People frequently talk about CAP being "ahead of its time" when it comes to creation. The most notable example of this would probably be Colossoil, with it being both a better Krookodile and with Rebound's similarity to the new ability Magic Mirror. There are other instances of this in CAP, and I think this might be one of them. I'm digging the Joltik / Galvantula example quite a bit. Originally, I was kind of stuck on Larvesta / Volcarona, but I don't think its movepool emulates anything plausible for Syclar / Syclant. Larvesta's large investment in physical attack also strikes me as something Syclar might not necessarily have.

While using Gen5 examples is good, I'd also encourage you all to look into some Gen4 and before examples. Skorupi / Drapion comes to mind, despite the different typings that they both exhibit. I also am a little partial to Anorith / Armaldo since the pre-evolution echos the large attack stat of the evolution. I could envision a similar layout for Syclar: boosts in offenses that lead to even higher boosts on offense as an evolution. They'd probably need to be toned down compared to Anorith's base 95 Atk, but I like that general idea. In terms of fragility, I don't envision something as weak as Combee, but I wouldn't push the envelope too much farther. Just my thoughts.

DHR, jas, and Pwnemon got it right. While there is an official design for Syclar, there is no official artwork that looks finalized and follows our artistic rules. I'd be great to get some artwork pumped out for that! In terms of a Little Cup CAP metagame, it is definitely implementable on Pokemon Showdown!; I've chatted with either bmelts or Zarel about it. We'll see how well this process goes. If it goes well and we end up with something desirable, I'd be all for it!

Just a note about the stats (assuming everything here is pure flavour AND this is the right time to talk about this). The current spread feels way too low, since 277->555 is an enourmous jump. Comparing with Larvesta->Volcarona (360->550), and taking into account that stat increases tend to be quite regular (I think?), I propose something like 50/76/50/74/44/81 = 375 (-180), where HP and Defenses are 20 points lower than Syclant while Attacks and Speed are 40 points lower. There might be other more balanced ways (simply -30 to everything?) but a basic Pokémon with these offensive stats looks already somewhat iffy flavour-wise (there's Monferno, but he's a stage 1).

In regards to CAP LC, I love the idea, and I think Syclar would be amazing. 14/13/16 offenses uninvested! I'll run some calcs later. Also, its defenses are 21/11/11 uninvested, which, obviously, can be boosted by Eviolite. Not too shabby for an offensive mon.

Orange Islands

I super do not want a CaP LC... What's the point? CaP itself isn't played as much as we want, who is going to play CaP LC? This is for flavour...

On another note, I've been looking over the other bug types which evolve just once. Volcarona is the only bug that even comes close to Syclant's BST. There are a few which hover around 500 (Yanmega, Accelgor, Escavalier, Armaldo and I guess Drapion) and the difference between their prevo in terms of BST ranges from 125 (Yanma -> Yanmega) to 190 (Shelmet -> Accelgor and Larvesta -> Volcarona). Discounting Yanma as it was supposed to not evolve; most of the dual stage Bug types gain around 150 to 200 BST points. I didn't include Scyther in this as he has the same BST as Scizor.

Baring that in mind, Syclar should probably be around 350~400 BST which is pretty strong for a first form. Anorith and Larvesta just scrape into this zone (355 and 360), with Yanma at 395. Weirdly, Mothim has similar stats to Syclant (70/94/50/94/50/66 compared to 70/116/70/114/64/121). Burmy however, doesn't really allow for a reasonable guess at prevo stats.

I think I've gone a little off topic lol... But it was interesting to have a poke around at the other Bug types and see how they compared. In terms of raw power, nothing really comes close.

I would also like to suggest a Shelmet/Karrablast sort of thing wherein the Basic is vastly different to the Stage 1. While in these two lines the offensive capabilities remain largely the same, the Speeds and bulk are changed greatly (Escavalier in particular becomes a goddamn TANK, going from 50/45/45 to 70/105/105).

Perhaps in terms of flavour, to survive in the mountainous areas, Syclar typically remain only in caves, constantly motionless, waiting for nutrition to be delivered by mother Syclant? They would cower and need to protect themselves from natural predators as they cannot fight for themselves.

Moderator

While I still love the whole Joltik/Galvantula comparison, another, different type of model I have been thinking of as a possibility would be to follow a Kricketot/Kricketune type evolution. Now obviously Kricketune is statistically quite different than Syclant, but they do have a similar basic style, being vey offensive oriented (for their BST), and quite frail. Additionally, looking at thew two design wise, both go from quite compact, small bugs to large creatures with much more expanded and detailed features, especially on the extremities, while still retaining the same basic body shape.

If we were to use Kricketot as a model, then on the statistics end, it would probably mean significant drops to both offenses and speed. Defenses would also fall, but not nearly to the same extent, possibly making it as bulky or more so than some fully evolved bugs. The only real part of this comparison where I feel it doesn't really work is in the movepool. I mean, to call Kricketot's movepool lacking would be an understatement, and Syclar already is guaranteed a better movepool than it from its egg moves alone. However, I do not believe a model like this would require us to try and completely gimp it it the movepool department. It already will have a few nice moves, so giving it a few more is fine, but we could keep the overall pool very small to give it that weak bug feel.

Interestingly, going back to stats for a second, Kricketot jumps up 190 in BST when it evolves. While that doesn't mean following a similar pattern would forces us to drop that much from Syclant, it certainly gives us a lot of room to work with.

While I'm still not sure if I prefer this to the previously presented simply approach of just scaling everything back like Joltik, I do think it is a very viable alternative.

Everyone seems to be focusing purely on the Bug typing for how Syclar should be, while ignoring Syclant's Ice typing. Since DHR decided to show the BST difference between the Stages of 2 Stage Bug Pokemon, I decided to do the same for 2 stage Ice Pokemon.

Starting off this with the only Gen 5 Pokemon on this list is Cubchoo/Beartic. Cubchoo has a BST of 305, while Beartic sits at 485, which is a difference of 180. Abamasnow has 494 and Snover has 334, for a difference of 160. Jynx is at 455 and Smoochum is at 305 for a difference of 150. Snorunt's BST is 300, while both Frosslass and Glalie have 480, for a difference of 180. Sneasel has 430, which is so high for a Stage one because it was made to stand alone, while Weavile is 90 points higher at a BST of 510. Shelder and Seel gain both an Ice type and 220/150 BST respectively wheen they evolve. The last Pokemon that I feel the need to mention is Swinub. While it is technically a 3 Stage Pokemon, it was introduced as a dual-stager, so its stats should reflect that. Swinub has a BST of 250 and Piloswine's BST is 450, which is a difference of 200.If you average all of those differences it comes out to 166.25, so let's say 165.

If dual-stage Bug-types usually have a BST difference of 125 between forms like DHR says they do then Syclar and Syclant should have a BST difference of 145. Syclant's BST is 575, and the total of X-Act's stat spread is 277, which is 298 BST lower, which is much too low. Sticking strictly to averages would put Syclant's BST at 130, right there with Sneasel. However, given that the difference between Sneasel's BST and Weavile's BST is only 90, maybe a BST around 375 would fit Syclar better.

If we follow Jas's Kricketot model for Syclar's bug portion, however, then the difference between stage one and stage two is about 175, which would put Syclar's BST at 400. Using the result of both models gives us a nice range for Syclar's BST: 375 - 400. Of coure, all that I've really proven is that the (35/58/35/57/32/60) spread is drastically underpowered.

I think that you both have proven that there's a lot of wiggle room as far as BST is concerned. I believe one of you mentioned something about Syclar waiting for a Syclant to bring them food. This would work off of a rejected dex entry. "SYCLANT blah blah bring food to their young"
So... Syclar dex.
"SYCLAR live in burrows at mountain peaks. When their mother arrives with food, they all light up with joy."
Thoughts?

Orange Islands

If you average all of those differences it comes out to 166.25, so let's say 165.

If dual-stage Bug-types usually have a BST difference of 125 between forms like DHR says they do then Syclar and Syclant should have a BST difference of 145. Syclant's BST is 575, and the total of X-Act's stat spread is 277, which is 298 BST lower, which is much too low. Sticking strictly to averages would put Syclant's BST at 130, right there with Sneasel. However, given that the difference between Sneasel's BST and Weavile's BST is only 90, maybe a BST around 375 would fit Syclar better.

If we follow Jas's Kricketot model for Syclar's bug portion, however, then the difference between stage one and stage two is about 175, which would put Syclar's BST at 400. Using the result of both models gives us a nice range for Syclar's BST: 375 - 400. Of coure, all that I've really proven is that the (35/58/35/57/32/60) spread is drastically underpowered.

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Actually, Yanma is the only mon with 125 BST less than its evo in terms of bugs. I said the rest ranged between 150 and 200. Also, Syclants BST is 555, not 575. X Act's stats are exactly half (or near as damnit) those of Syclants. The only other Pokemon that has stats like that is Makuhita to Hariyama; which only really has 2 big stats (HP/ATT) compared to Syclants 3 (ATT/Spcl ATT/SPD).

EDIT: I was talking to people about how it would evolve earlier. There were a fair range of levels and ways put forward. I was surprised how small Syclants Lv up move pool is more than anything. It'll be difficult to try and take some things out for Syclar imo. Syclar with Ice Punch doesn't really seem right :P

I could see Syclar evolving at level 30 and learning Ice Punch upon evolution, like Thunderpunch for Ampharos, Icicle Crash for Beartic and Dizzy Punch for Reuniclus. The rest of Syclant's level-up movepool seems fine for Syclar, with maybe the possible exception of Fury Attack.

In regards to its typing, who says it has to be mono-Bug or mono-Ice? Using Surskit and Masquerain as an example, the unevolved pokemon does not necessarily need to have the same dual typing as the evolved pokemon. Scyther/Scizor is another example of them not sharing the same dual types (although, admittedly, that family has a good reason). Nincada and Ninjask/Shedinja.

I am not suggesting that Syclar and Syclant should have different typings. Rather, I am suggesting we should not rule it out.