They don't have the B777s to do that rumor so the fact 9W re starting BOM - PVG - SFO loses out here itself. Besides one of the reasons of the failure of the route was due to poor timings and the Chinese were least cooperative on that front.

9W may want to start PVG and SFO separately and rightfully there is a need of their presence to both these cities. And how they do it is something for us to watch.

Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!

Quoting ojas (Reply 1):Besides one of the reasons of the failure of the route was due to poor timings and the Chinese were least cooperative on that front.

Yes I do recall that issue. I also recall that China did not give 9W local traffic rights PVG-SFO-PVG.

Quoting ojas (Reply 1):They don't have the B777s...9W may want to start PVG and SFO separately and rightfully there is a need of their presence to both these cities. And how they do it is something for us to watch.

I vaguely recall 9Ws financial difficulties prompting it to withdraw the B777 fleet. Any rumors to that end? Article mentions pending service to JNB. What a/c type will used for that route?

[Edited 2010-03-01 01:09:40]

With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.

Yes you are right. I now recall the Chinese government initially refusing to grant traffic rights. That stance was altered when agreement was reached for local traffic rights for both Jet and a Chinese carrier (ex-BOM?).

Stand corrected - thanks!

With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.

The issue at the time was to allow Chinese Air Cargo start service into various Indian cities. This route is doomed to fail again if 9W does not revise their timeing. Arriving into PVG at 0200 from SFO is not a pleasant time , IMO.

Quoting legacyins (Reply 6):
The issue at the time was to allow Chinese Air Cargo start service into various Indian cities

Shanghai Airlines Cargo - served Bombay but pulled out last year.
Great Wall Airlines - served Bombay and Chennai, pulled out last year and are to resume Chennai.
Jade Cargo International - serve Chennai, and charters flights most probably for lufthansa or other carriers to Bombay, Delhi and Kolkata.

Or were you referring to Air China Cargo or China Cargo Airlines, formerly China Eastern Cargo?

I believe that they had hoped to profit from the once booming US-China market, but just as the US carriers have retrenched, so too Jet had to. Jet got hit doubly hard as the India market quickly retreated and was likewise inundated with capacity.

BLR-PVG-SFO could make some sense, or routing through somewhere like ICN instead of PVG, geographically at least.

If they were going to do BRU, again, I think they would need to rebuild the scissor hub - and send the aircraft going to SFO onward to BLR.

Jet has a great product... perhaps too good. I have heard their premium seats are the heaviest flying anywhere, esp in C... (loads of solid hard wood) that kind of excess is of questionable value in good time and is a boondoggle in bad times.

If any Indian carrier has the right fundamentals to make it, I think it is Jet, but they must be more practical this go round - keep the good(they have lots of it), just use it better. I'd love to see them grow into a roaring success.

Growing their partnership with DL in the US could be a huge stroke in building their business too.

the problem is not PVG vs. ICN... it's brand recognition and willingness of advertise and discount

it's tough to do a single tag-on, but much easier to do a scissor hub like BRU

so before they start the whole chain, why not create multiple flights from india to PVG, all timed for PVG-SFO.....and thus becoming a SFO-PVG-India flight that has a lot more potential than simply BOM

not to mention convincing californians why it's worthy to fly them instead of UA to Shanghai

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 10):it's tough to do a single tag-on, but much easier to do a scissor hub like BRU

so before they start the whole chain, why not create multiple flights from india to PVG, all timed for PVG-SFO.....and thus becoming a SFO-PVG-India flight that has a lot more potential than simply BOM

Enough with the scissor hubs. They will almost always be a money losing operation, especially when the carrier has zero brand loyalty on the second segment, in this case PVGSFO, or anything AI Transatlantic.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 9):Growing their partnership with DL in the US could be a huge stroke in building their business too.

I didn't know 9W had a partnership with DL but apparently they do as well as UA and AA; have they given any hints that they'd strengthen their DL partnership?

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 9):BLR-PVG-SFO could make some sense, or routing through somewhere like ICN instead of PVG, geographically at least.

And in which manner can you say this?

BLR was tried by IT to be served Intl.They maybe the best in Domestic, but BLR did not go well enough for Intl.IT had to shift it to BOM-DEL like how other carriers did.
Also, SQ can offer connections forwarding from SIN.They fly from BLR.
And PVG-SFO also did not generate enough revenue to keep the flights going.They were bleeding money.
I will say 9W concentrate on the existing flights rather than trying to expand more.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 9):BLR-PVG-SFO could make some sense, or routing through somewhere like ICN instead of PVG, geographically at least.

= I don't understand this obsession with connecting BLR to SFO (or anything for that matter). IT is not a HUGE part of Indian economy in terms of people employed; and BLR does not have the demand for these kind of flights. SFO has significantly more O&D with DEL and BOM and only a foolish carrier would have these weird interests to serve BLR with SFO. In 20 years perhaps ... now, NO.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):Enough with the scissor hubs. They will almost always be a money losing operation, especially when the carrier has zero brand loyalty on the second segment, in this case PVGSFO, or anything AI Transatlantic.

= I know we have different takes on 9W's BRU hub, but things have actually stabilized and picked up ... if they do start SFO, they should stick it with BRU.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 9):If they were going to do BRU, again, I think they would need to rebuild the scissor hub - and send the aircraft going to SFO onward to BLR.

I honestly think 9W needs a flight to BRU out of BLR. Yes, I've been told it did not do very well when they tried it, but the economy was in a horrible state at that time. This would be the right time to restart it and entrench themselves as the global economy picks up.

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 12):BLR was tried by IT to be served Intl.They maybe the best in Domestic, but BLR did not go well enough for Intl.

I think the main reason IT's LHR flights failed was that BA was very, very well entrenched in the market and offered EXCELLENT connections to N. America and beyond from LHR. Besides, their timings were not exactly ideal. BA still does exceptionally well on this route, often sending in a 747 instead of the usual 777.

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 12):I will say 9W concentrate on the existing flights rather than trying to expand more.

I think this is the right time to expand. We've seen the worst of the downturn and most countries have returned to postive growth. If they wait for things to get even better, they'd lose out. 2009 was an exceptionally good year for aircraft deliveries. It must be kept in mind that many airlines are aggressively expanding. Also, many of the Indian LCC's will have right to fly abroad within the next two years and it is up to the existing carriers such as 9W and IT to set up a loyal customer base for themselves in the regional markets before the LCC wave hits. If EK can manage to fill multiple flights a day out of BLR, I'm sure 9W can certainly deploy a 737 on the route, profitably. Their on board product is far superior to EK's regional product. Even QR is (or has already started?) starting to fly into BLR. This is the time to act!

While the obsession with connecting BLR to SFO is unjustified, I'm certain there will be enough demand out of BLR to N. America and Europe soon. In the South of India, summer vacations run from April to June. If only 9W could capitalize on this, they would be in a position to offer excellent connections into Europe with their partner airline (SN) and also into N. America from BRU. COME ON9W!

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 14):'m certain there will be enough demand out of BLR to N. America and Europe soon. In the South of India, summer vacations run from April to June. If only 9W could capitalize on this, they would be in a position to offer excellent connections into Europe with their partner airline (SN) and also into N. America from BRU. COME ON9W!

See it is easy to say BLR - N. America has a lot of traffic hence IT/9W should start services to BRU/JFK and all. But one must realize by now AI/EK/QR/CX(KA)/BA/LH/AF/CO/AA/SQ are popular options to the USA most of which are one stop. What traffic is 9W expected to capitalize on?

The solution to this is to have a full fledged hub at DEL.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 14):I think the main reason IT's LHR flights failed was that BA was very, very well entrenched in the market and offered EXCELLENT connections to N. America and beyond from LHR.

The main reason is that there wasn't enough traffic to justify carriers flying non stop to LHR. There isn't that much traffic.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 14):If EK can manage to fill multiple flights a day out of BLR, I'm sure 9W can certainly deploy a 737 on the route, profitably. Their on board product is far superior to EK's regional product. Even QR is (or has already started?) starting to fly into BLR. This is the time to act!

Who said EK flights to BLR are running full? QR has already started DOH - BLR.

Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 13):= I know we have different takes on 9W's BRU hub, but things have actually stabilized and picked up ... if they do start SFO, they should stick it with BRU.

Wasn't it the case that they couldn't turn around the flights back to BRU from SFO in time to connect with the rest of the flights to India? Wasn't that one of the reasons why they avoided BRU and went to PVG?

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 14):In the South of India, summer vacations run from April to June. If only 9W could capitalize on this, they would be in a position to offer excellent connections into Europe with their partner airline (SN) and also into N. America from BRU. COME ON9W!

= The south of India is low-yield traffic ... and there is no data that provides evidence to the contrary. Do you think the summer vacationers care about the airlines? They care about price ... just like ANYWHERE else in the world. People may argue here that BLR is an example of India shining ... or HYD ... but the truth is, premium passengers are still significantly more in DEL and BOM. Of course, there is premium demand at BLR ... this is adequately serviced NOW by the carriers in the market.

Of course, the situation will evolve in 5 years.

I wonder if AMD-BRU would make more sense ... than a BLR-BRU. And, if 9W wants to abandon their BRU hub, they can even try something creative like DEL/BOM-MAN-LAX/SFO.

Quoting ojas (Reply 15):The solution to this is to have a full fledged hub at DEL.

Wouldn't they need B772L for the NA west coast?

Another alternative is to establish the scissor hub at LHR, by moving from BRU. I know it will cost a lot of money to buy slots(which 9W does not have currently), but it does provide 9W access to a larger O&D market between LHR-India relative to BRU-India.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 18):Another alternative is to establish the scissor hub at LHR, by moving from BRU. I know it will cost a lot of money to buy slots(which 9W does not have currently), but it does provide 9W access to a larger O&D market between LHR-India relative to BRU-India .

It also takes their scissor hub out of a relatively uncongested airport where they have a lot of influence with airport management to an overcrowded and highly competitive market . A scissor hub will only work if arrivals and departures can be co-ordinated ( if you check the Belgian website luchtzak.be you will find a photo of 6 9W A330s on the ground at the same time at BRU and 5 of them are at adjacent gates ) . I suppose a lot depends on the nature and yield of the traffic - is the scissor hub aimed predominantly at India-North America traffic with any local feed generated by the Brussels-India market , or by their partnership with SN , being just icing on the cake ? If so then in my belief they should be better off sticking at BRU .

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 19):I suppose a lot depends on the nature and yield of the traffic - is the scissor hub aimed predominantly at India-North America traffic with any local feed generated by the Brussels-India market , or by their partnership with SN , being just icing on the cake ? If so then in my belief they should be better off sticking at BRU .

Good points.
As I understand, they can not get more slots at BRU. I don't have the numbers, but I suspect most of the traffic on flights via BRU is India-NA.

In the end, 9W's alliance decision should drive the choice of European hub.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 20):As I understand, they can not get more slots at BRU.

I have asked some of my Belgian friends whether they can shed any light on this , if I hear back from them I will let you know .

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 20):
In the end, 9W's alliance decision should drive the choice of European hub.

True , and since OW has gone with IT as their Indian partner hopefully 9W will make a decision soon . Although I would think that with IT going to OW that would argue against 9W relocating their scissor hub to LHR .

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 21):True , and since OW has gone with IT as their Indian partner hopefully 9W will make a decision soon . Although I would think that with IT going to OW that would argue against 9W relocating their scissor hub to LHR .

Assuming they go with SkyTeam, I wonder which would make a better hub between CDG and AMS? Are there slots available at both of these airports?

That I believe. But in the process 9W has become an increasingly small player in BOMNYC, DELNYC, and DELYYZ. They have neither the schedule to attract the premium traffic, nor do they offer anything particularly unique in terms of destinations.

Quoting ojas (Reply 15):The solution to this is to have a full fledged hub at DEL.

Amazing, an Indian carrier with a hub in India. It's too simple and common sense; it'll never work .

I have to admit that I am still hoping that *A will get fed up with AI and tell them to go away , 9W already has more codeshare and frequent flyer programme ties to *A airlines than AI does in spite of the fact that AIs acceptance as a future *A member was advised in December 2007 ! If *A and 9W were to get together then 9W/BRU would be pretty much guaranteed to stay in place .

Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)

25 blr380
: . [/quote] I've been out for a long time on multiple trips and haven't had a chance to post my comments.... I've flown 9W through BRU - and have seen

26 MaverickM11
: And there goes the one reason to have a transfer hub in BRU....

27 Conti764
: They can get more slots, but it is difficult to squeeze them into the very busy morning block. The only way for 9W to grow at BRU is to move one set

28 DTWLAX
: What do you mean by only half of them connect? 2 fly in from India and 3 from N.America 2 fly out to India and 3 to N.America So 5 planes are require

29 ojas
: And it is not that LHR is free to give slots as and when an airline wants. Yes, although there is a substantial amount of traffic between BOM/DEL and

30 DTWLAX
: forgot about that one... thanx so all 6 need to be on the ground at the same time

31 abrelosojos
: = LHR was looked at by 2 of the Indian carriers, and a combination of lack of slots and the costs of an LHR OPS was a vote against it. = Actually, th

32 kiwiandrew
: Not really - they could have two separate banks of three aircraft each - one bank Westbound and one a couple of hours later Eastbound , after all , t

33 DTWLAX
: I get you... thanx for the explanation. Well they could do it the other way around. The aircrafts can depart from India a couple of hours late and sp

34 MaverickM11
: Only half of those 6 aircraft connect, ie 3 come in from India and feed 3 outbound flights. But, for whatever reason, they have all 6 arriving at the

35 FlyDreamliner
: Building up brand loyalty costs money and doesn't happen overnight, but that's how airlines get it. The scissor hub is the best option for them. The

36 MaverickM11
: In Belgium. How could that possibly be a cost effective excercise in the long term for an Indian carrier? So would a perpetual motion machine, but ne

37 LAXDESI
: Does Alitalia offer extensive connections to other parts of Europe from MXP, and does MXP have enough slots available?

38 kiwiandrew
: I think MXP has plenty of slots due to the AZ pullback there ... but I believe that AI are starting DEL-MXP-IAD and there have been rumours ( of cour

39 Conti764
: No they don't... I guess the poster ment the security checkpoint in the middle of the B-pier, established on behalf of Jet Airways, but open to every

40 Conti764
: I guess not... Many airlines work that way at BRU (UA, ET, HU,...) They can come in early, tow the equipment to a remote stand, prepare it for the ne

41 Conti764
: The problem is the transatlantic market is already pretty well covered from BRU and often to the same destinations as 9W... You have CO to EWR, AA an

42 Jacobin777
: ...another problem 9W has on the BLR, PVG and SFO routes are that is that it has to go up against EK, which doesn't care if it takes low or high yiel