After 2200BC the site disappeared under several feet of clay and peat.

This certainly indicates something to me, several feet of clay and peat on top of these ancient sites at 2200BC where people were living quite a successful maritime life. Many fled the area at that time.

More:

Hunebedden

The most important of those sandy highgrounds is the "Hondsrug" (back of the dog),

some 60 km. long, from Groningen to Emmen in Drente (see map). The highest point

is 30 m. above sealevel. This highground was populated more or less continuously

since the neolithicum. Many megalithic chambered tombs, called 'hunebedden', can

still be seen here. A few kilometers to the south of Groningen such a tomb had

been in use from 2700 to 2200 b.c. The northernmost of these hunebedden was found

In the early Iron-age (600-400 b.c., period Hallstad/La Tene), because of

overpopulation on the highgrounds, the clay-grounds were beeing colonized.

Because these grounds were regularly flooded by the see, people formed artificial

hills on which to live, so called 'terpen', 'wierden' or 'warden'. These people

are the Frisians.

These Frisians may have been reclaiming a land they had inhabited before the clay and peat several feet thick inundated their lands in 2200BC...

The city was founded on the northernmost point of the Hondsrug area. The oldest document referring to Groningen's existence dates from 1040. However, the city already existed long before then: the oldest archaeological traces found are believed to stem from the years 3950 BC3720 BC, although the first major settlement in Groningen has been traced back to the 3rd century AD.

*I think it's not out of the question, that a maritime people living in the North Frisian Islands from the early 4th millenium BC, known as a culture who used the word Folk - suffered a cataclysm of some sort geologically when several feet of clay and peat mud inundated their lands c. 2200BC were the ancestors of the Frisians, who were actually the story of the Fryans, the inhabitants of these lands.

I'd even go so far as to say it could be possible this is where the Inguevonic language started and Ingwi, Freyr, son of Norj(th)a originated. It may be the original homeland of the Vanir Gods even.

From these islands to the mainland of Germany, Holland and Frisia and up into Jutland and Sweden, east to the end of the Baltic Sea at one point, all these related people would have inhabited, sailing the seas, only being turned upside down once the arrival of the land-dwelling Indo-Europeans occurred.

This part of the Wadden Sea is the North Frisian Islands, they appear a bit like the islands of the southern part of Frisia near Holland and I see the word Frisland here, in Denmark, near these islands I at first mistook for being in the areas of Frisia near Holland.

This part in Sonderjylland is where Nordstrand is and Pelworm Island, and Northern Frisland.

Sorry, I'm not up on the exact geography of the area but I will be soon. It makes no difference to my above posts.

SonderJYLland

So, apparently the Minoan haul was found right up here.

PS: Now I also get that Otharus showed this map of the same area Frisia Borealis. How interesting.

The oldest traces of settlements in the area date back to the Neolithicum, among them a number of dolmens. Also many tomb sites from the Bronze and Iron Ages have been preserved. In the dunes west of the decoy pond the remainders of an Iron Age hamlet have been found. It is unknown whether the Ambrones, who together with the Cimbri and Teutones threatened Rome around 100 B.C., stemmed from this island which back then was still connected to the mainland by a land bridge.

In the early Middle Ages the island was colonised by the Frisians. Next to salt making, agriculture, fishery and whaling, merchant shipping was one of the main sources of income for a long time.

Frisians of the Middle Ages colonised Amrum, Middle Ages but there was plenty going on prior to that before these Fryans became actual Frisians. It must have been quite a powerful island force if it's thought tribes like the Ambrones, Teutones and the Cimbri may have come from there.

Ambrones:

Their name has been connected to the islands of Fehmarn, old name Imbria, and Amrum. If true, they may be the Ymbers of Widsith.

I guess, like me, you tried everything to find something hexagonal, and yes, all you will find is a relatively modern church tower. Well, I did find a polygonal (an octagonal) Roman tower in Dover, but even that one is -a- wrong culture and -b- wrong age.

I guess, like me, you tried everything to find something hexagonal, and yes, all you will find is a relatively modern church tower. Well, I did find a polygonal (an octagonal) Roman tower in Dover, but even that one is -a- wrong culture and -b- wrong age.

I showed it to show how the culture of the hexagonal tower ATTACHED to a long house is also still in this area.

After I found a Finnish generic name for a hillfort, a name close to the OLB Lindasburgt (in south-west Skenland/Schoonland), I focussed on the southern part of Sweden (Skåne Lån ) to find other locations with a 'Linda' in their name.

Linderödsåsen is named after the parish name Linderödsåsen which in turn contains Linde (linden stocks) and Ryd (clearing). Åsen utgör i likhet med många av de andra skånska åsarna en geologisk gräns, den sk Tornqvistlinjen . The ridge is similar to many of the other ridges in Skåne a geological boundary, known as the Tornqvist line

Not satisfied, I played a bit with the letters, and tried "Lindenoorden".... but nothing.

OK, then "Lindenoord", and BINGO !!

This "Lindenoord" is a centuries old villa in the city of Wolvega, Friesland, and close to that now 'famous' river 'De Linden'(district of Weststellingwerf, Friesland).

But that's not all... this was also the villa where once Willem van Haren lived, the man who wrote a huge poem about the Friso and his adventures in India and elsewhere (Gevallen van Friso, koning der Gangariden en Prasiaten

), a poem discussed and analyzed by Joost Halbertsma.

Not only was Willem a writer/poet, he was also a grietman (OLB: grevetman), something between a mayor and judge.

Did this 'Lindenoord' suffer in any way? Yes, it was burned down, and much of the library was lost in 1776. After that is was rebuilt again.

So, instead of focussing on southern Sweden, I just played with the letters of the Linda-locations in the OLB. It's my idea that the creators of the OLB simply looked for placenames in some atlas, places that started with "Lind- " , and added a distorted form of that placename to the story.

Another placename in the OLB is "Lindahem" . Now what does the OLB say about Lindahem?

"My father has written how the Lindaoorden and Lindgaarden were destroyed. Lindahem is still lost, the Lindaoorden partially, and the north Lindgaarden are still concealed by the salt sea."

I tried "Lindenheim", but all I found was something on a Dutch Wiccan site that told about a last witch-burning in 1798.

Well, it could be a misspelling or Lindesheim (the lost village) is in south Germany (near Offstein), and the Lindenheim (with the castle and with those 'Lindengrunden') is in east Germany. I am getting quite confused now..

So, in short: there is a 'lost village' called Lindesheim in soouth Germany, there is a village with castle/hillfort near 'Lindenoorden' called Lindenheim, in east Germany, and there is one near Ahrensburg in Schleswig-Holstein, close to where we better go look for a 'Lindahem'. The Schleswig-Holstein Lindenheim is relatively 'close' to the 'Lindaoorden'(Linderödsåsen) in southern Sweden.

The tumbling waters of Forsakar Falls plunge into a deep ravine. Dressed in mosses and surrounded by ancient deciduous woodlands the surrounding countryside is also the home of spectacular blackcock courting rituals (?? HUH??) and orchid meadows.

Linderödsåsen Ridge runs from the heart of Skåne to Hanöbukten Bay. The geographical variations of the ridge make it appealing. Whether you hike or ride on horseback you can experience the call of the wild. Skåneleden, the network of trails that criss-cross Skåne, runs through a number of nature reserves.

Veer off to the right or left and you’ll walk paths that have only been trod by roe deer and red deer, the latter is the animal emblem of Skåne.

If you take a detour along Hjortslingan Trail you’ll see some of the region’s most attractive stately homes, their grounds are frequently open to the public.

Imposing Bronze Age burial-mounds and stone circles on Linderödsås Ridge hint at bygone civilizations. There are beautiful meadows full of flowers to be seen on Bastslingan Trail, and what better way to see them than by bike.

Previously, there was a still undated refuge-mound (the Dutch "Vliedberg", or terp) whose dimensions through the outer moats in Forst Hagen in the south of the city are still identifiable. Oral traditions speak of the wars at the turn of the 10th Century.

By Flieburg/refuge mound (also Fluchtburg, People's castle, farmburg or Vryburg), was meant a castle-like, by ramparts surrounded defense system, which was not permanently inhabited, but used by the local resident population as a temporary retreat from the threat of war. In earlier times, such structures were described as Hünenburgen, since their formation was attributed to the Huns.

Many people were buried in the earth and many who had escaped the fire perished in the water. Not only in Finda’s Land did the mountains spew fire but also in Twiskland. Forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind came from there our land was covered with ash. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and floating animals. Three years earth suffered, but when it improved the forests could be seen. Many countries were submerged, others had risen out of the sea and in Twiskland half of the forests were destroyed.

Where the OLB says "sand and animals", read "topsoil and organic material". This became peat & clay over 4000 years.

How could any hoaxer in the 19th century have known this and the date of 2200 BC / 2193 BC.

The fact that scientists at present ascribe the peat and clay to rising sea levels is merely their interpretation and, you will agree, they could in all probability be wrong.

Many people were buried in the earth and many who had escaped the fire perished in the water. Not only in Finda’s Land did the mountains spew fire but also in Twiskland. Forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind came from there our land was covered with ash. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and floating animals. Three years earth suffered, but when it improved the forests could be seen. Many countries were submerged, others had risen out of the sea and in Twiskland half of the forests were destroyed.

Where the OLB says "sand and animals", read "topsoil and organic material". This became peat & clay over 4000 years.

How could any hoaxer in the 19th century have known this and the date of 2200 BC / 2193 BC.

The fact that scientists at present ascribe the peat and clay to rising sea levels is merely their interpretation and, you will agree, they could in all probability be wrong.

Just a quick reply:

The tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide, the up to 3-days-long tsunami that finished off Doggerland around 6145 BC, left traces (sand, shells and ao on) in the countries surrounding the present North Sea. Clear traces.

I tell you Alewyn, I have read so many scientific pdf's about Doggerland and connected stuff, that my eyes started to water. And very often I was looking for something more recent than 6145 BC, but never have I found anything hugely catastrophic of past that date.

The Storegga Slide was caused when a submarine layer of sediment the size of Iceland (or Ireland), west of Norway, became unstable and started to move. Now I imagine that an event as described in your book - a comet impact in the south Indian Ocean around 2200 BC, an impact that may even have tilted the earth's axis - would have had an effect on geological strata similar or greater than the efect of the Storegga Slide.

And most important, we would have heard about it. The Storegga Slide effected the North Sea area only, but the event in your book had an effect on the whole planet.

And even if it wasn't a comet impact, even if the earth's axis did not tilt, even then - if the OLB is true - should we find traces of all the OLB disasters all over the world, and around 2200 BC.

Not just floods or draughts, but burnt forests, volcanic eruptions, rivers changing direction, lands submerged and upheaveled (sp?), mountains crumbling... and most important: all that around 2200 BC.... worldwide.

++

EDIT:

Imagine: most of the forests of Europe burnt to a cinder. You'd imagine they'd found a carbon layer, dating to 2200 BC, all over Europe (and maybe Russia)??

Share on other sites

The Puzzler 490

Abe - Concerning Stavia, Lindahem and Luidgarda. I agree with Alewyn that Stavia is Staveren. I have spent all night studying maps of Friesland, the IJsselmeer, Rhine and Denmark and the German Bight as well as Alewyn's map of Flyland and trying to make sense of some things.

Now if we consider that:

These are the Grevetmen under whose direction this book is composed:—

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

(List of the rest follows)

and consider that Stavia is Staveren, why would Luidgarda and Lindahem be anywhere other than right near Staveren??

Lindahem sounds to me like it may have just disappeared into the sea, exactly what they said, it was in East Flyland or even out into the Wadden Sea. Since Staveren is on the North of this old Flyland, the (IJsselmeer according to Alewyn) I'd assume myself the other two towns would also be nearby. Not off somewhere else in Germany or Switzerland.

What this says it that it IS A POSSIBILITY THAT FIRE DID GO THROUGH EUROPE & GERMANY from a time period around the Neolithic and/or onwards.

If you read it all you'll see it says maybe 7 fire events, then after analysis this part is specifically mentioned: It is possible that the quantities of BC-SOC

measured in these soils were produced by a small number of

fire events, given aboveground biomass carbon density.

The idea is that the BC in the soil could have been caused by slash and burn human methods, but this would possibly show a larger number of fires. It's possible it's a combination of both slash and burn and natural burning of vegetation by fires.

Nothing concrete but at least we now know that carbon DOES show layers of burning throughout Europe in the time period we are talking about.

Also, it has to understood this sort of information isn't just falling out of everyone's pockets, their is no clear answers to find for these questions at present.

What this says it that it IS A POSSIBILITY THAT FIRE DID GO THROUGH EUROPE & GERMANY from a time period around the Neolithic and/or onwards.

If you read it all you'll see it says maybe 7 fire events, then after analysis this part is specifically mentioned: It is possible that the quantities of BC-SOC

measured in these soils were produced by a small number of

fire events, given aboveground biomass carbon density.

The idea is that the BC in the soil could have been caused by slash and burn human methods, but this would possibly show a larger number of fires. It's possible it's a combination of both slash and burn and natural burning of vegetation by fires.

Nothing concrete but at least we now know that carbon DOES show layers of burning throughout Europe in the time period we are talking about.

Also, it has to understood this sort of information isn't just falling out of everyone's pockets, their is no clear answers to find for these questions at present.

Yes Puzz and this goes hand in hand with what we know about the Aboriginals of Australia as well as other "Primitive cultures" and the control they placed on their environment with the use of fire.

I have said it before but take away the convenience of Electricity, the steam and internal combustion engines and we are right back to the Stone Age in reality.

It amazes me how conceited and superior we all think we are when with the removal of the above would bring most of society and civilization to a stand still today.

Share on other sites

The Puzzler 490

Yes Puzz and this goes hand in hand with what we know about the Aboriginals of Australia as well as other "Primitive cultures" and the control they placed on their environment with the use of fire.

I have said it before but take away the convenience of Electricity, the steam and internal combustion engines and we are right back to the Stone Age in reality.

It amazes me how conceited and superior we all think we are when with the removal of the above would bring most of society and civilization to a stand still today.

Yes, from the article..

In black Australian

grassland soils, under aboriginal fire management for thousands

of years, up to 30% of the soil organic carbon (SOC)

was present as BC, whereas adjacent forested soils that were

not subjected to regular aboriginal burning were gray and

contained little BC

I know, I had a blackout yesterday and was a mess, I needed the internet mostly, and the fridge, it went out at 8am, by 5pm we had the generator up and running...lol sad really.

It happened before my kids went to school, so they knew, there was a massive tree fell on the power lines from strong wind up the road near the bus-stop, when the kids finished school the workmen were still there,

Y'know, as my kids got off the bus, 2 Aboriginal girls who live near me said: "I wish we had no power!", the other girl went "Yeah, I wish we had no power too".... in the way that if we didn't have the power we wouldn't be bothered by the black-out. How ironic.

I found it really profound lol, so it's funny you should mention this topic in your post...

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Flashbangwollap 0

I know, I had a blackout yesterday and was a mess, the internet mostly, it went out at 8am, by 5pm we had the generator up and running...lol sad really.

It happened before my kids went to school, so they knew, there was a massive tree fell on the power lines from strong wind up the raod near the bus-stop,

Y'know, as my kids got off the bus, 2 Aboriginal girls who live near me said: "I wish we had no power!", the other girl went "Yeah, I wish we had no power too".... in the way that if we didn't have the power we wouldn't be bothered by the black-out. How ironic.

I found it really profound lol, so it's funny you should mention this topic in your post...

A touch of De Ja Vou (However it's spelt ?Gawd I hate this American /English dictionary!)

I also hate to say that it's a trip I often take on my own when trying to visualize how things were in the Bronze age.

We seem to have become so conditioned into accepting all these things that it's almost impossible to see a world without them.

As I have said in other threads we think we can cope with anything but I predict Mother Nature will have the final say.

Share on other sites

The Puzzler 490

Heck I didn't want to derail this thread Puzz but what I am getting at is we should perhaps re-educate ourselves by learning from those very people we displaced from the landscape.

Mate, I don't think you COULD derail this thread. It's been in every direction and back again...

But back to the OLB. I gave that info on the fires as the best evidence I could pull right now that fires were shown to have occurred throughout Europe and remained in the soils from the Neolithic.

It doesn't really validate anything but it shows that fires in Europe can't be INVALIDATED. They just don't know, if anyone can pull better or newer evidence of what the results of the fires showed, that would be great.

--

The peat and clay covering the land several feet deep in the Wadden Sea in the area of Delfzijl around the time of 2200BC is as Alewyn said, up to interpretation but 'several feet' would have been enough to change alot of landscape.