This guy was nobody for a long time. He had his moment in Isle of Thunder and suddenly people are like "He would the best wurchief evah!". He did nothing for the Horde, he was basicly absent for most of the time, He even wanted to get back to the Alliance for crying out loud.

That is the worst warchief idea ever for my taste, I rolled the horde to be part of tribal society not Alliance 2.0 ruled by pinkskin pixie.

I'll accepty any orc, I'll accept Baine, and I'll accept Vol'Jin.

BUT Any Elf or Gallywix is huge No-No-NO! For me

This guy would be good leader for blood elves only, he have no idea about Horde politics, he wasn't there when Horde was found, he stays away from traditions that are important to 3 core races (orcs, tauren, trolls), he never was part of any debate or action in the name of the Horde.
He don't consider himself as part with the nation, he don't get it at all, he is there because he has to. His negotations with Wrynn got sabotaged, and he had to suck it up and stay with Horde.

That's horrible choice. I'd rather for Mankrik to rule the Horde. Or Gamon. But not this traitor that is switching sides as it's convenient for him.

so essentially what you're saying is, you're willfully ignoring all the comments and posts earlier discussing that, and how your hero Vo'jin himself was going to leave the horde? gotcha.

But seriously If you want belf for warchief, then why don't you reroll alliance? Anyone who is ok with it, clearly don't get the Horde at all.

Anyone who doesn't get why Lor'themar wouldn't make an excellent warchief isn't azerothian horde at all. See what I did thar?

You're stuck in the past kid, move on. The horde has evolved, the game has evolved, the story has evolved. The ONLY reason I would accept another orc as warchief and or anyone recommended by Thrall is because being a game, the devs write the story, and they'd not do the same thing again by making psychopath warchief xp 2.0. If this were reality, I'd never accept another orc or anyone who has Thrall's recommendation because orc's have shown they can't be trusted, are easily corrupted and power hungry, and despite great wisdom, thrall is a fool.

And let me revisit the 'clearly don't get the horde at all' comment. That's funny you say that. YOU don't get the horde. The horde is nothing more than a group of miscreants without a home, the world against them who have come together for common survival. That is the blood elves, the forsaken, trolls, tauren, orcs etc etc. Blood Elves are the very definition of horde.

Nope. Since TBC he had this very brief appearance in MoP. While Vol'Jin had been developed since the WotLK (Reclaiming Echo isles, and he was at the sige of Undercity, to take care of the rest while Thrall Sylvanas, player and Kor'Kron unit went inside).

Baine started off in Cata and he had been also developed gradualy.

Lord Who? was very good term because he literally was nobody, for a long time.

You know it takes, like, 5 minutes to google what you think you know to confirm it right? Lor'themar was involved at the time of BC, both in game and canon literature by fighting Kael'thas with the Horde, you know, his own people's civil war. Which also kind of shows a little about loyalties, considering he still stayed with the Horde instead of joining his rightful prince. It's doesn't seem like a tough choice, but it sure proves that he's not just in the Horde because it's convenient for him. In WotLK he had involvement with the very popular Quel'Delar quest, which wasn't much but hey, more than Vol'jin did since WoW began!

That's also very incorrect Statement since both Baine and Vol'Jin had been with Horde since it's been found. Baine was also mentioned in Warcraft 3 if I remember Correctly. Vol'jin for years was Thrall's right hand. He was sending his people to aid the Horde. So at each Horde outpost each horde's base you saw both orcs and trolls. You enter the Dark portal and you see orcs and trolls, you enter Thrallmall you see orc and troll grunts. in Northrend Kor'Kron troops has not only orcs but Trolls and Tauren aswell. Bainse is following his father, he is sending his people to Pandaria, he is creating his own troops in form of Sunwalkers, while Vol'Jin formed Siame Quasi.

Baine and Vol'jin have only ever led their own people, the same as Lor'themar... and if we're talking about just leadership experience, Lor'themar is years ahead of them since he was the second in command of the Farstriders before being appointed Regent Lord. I'm not sure what specific towns have to do with anything, the blood elves had plenty of outposts in Outland, and there were a lot of blood elves posted in Northrend, who, along with the Forsaken and humans, had more reason than anyone to be there. Let's not forget the Sunreavers, the Horde representatives that even gave the Horde any access to Dalaran! Vol'jin and Baine's participation in Pandaria has been laughable compared to Lor'themar, who led his people and the Sunreavers in a campaign against one of the most powerful tyrants Azeroth has ever seen. But a tauren paladin babysitting in the Sanctum is a pretty good contribution too. Again, I don't get the relevance of this. All of the races in the Horde participate in the wars they're in, Baine and the tauren and Vol'jin and the Darkspear are not special cases.

And it is important to keep Horde's spirit. Horde always had and should have savage tune within it. That wat makes it different from the Alliance. Otherwise it would be boring as hell if we would have 2 barely different faction fighting against each other.

And why would having a blood elf warchief change the Horde spirit? Is he going to channel the powers of the Sunwell and magically make all the Horde races nice and pretty? Is he going to kick out the orcs, trolls, and tauren and everyone suddenly has to remake their characters blood elves? Dull argument, what's next?

You see Blood elves ended in this situation purely as a result of thier own doings. If they stayed loyal to Alliance and actually helped them, there wouldn't be such a tragic outcome. But blood elves are convenient egoists who only do anything as it's beneficial and convenient for them. They can only blame themselves for picking bad decisions. While the Horde always was sticking together no matter how shitty situation was, no matter how little they were, together they were creating something strong, they were joined by shamanistic roots, culture based on spirits, ancestors, and elements. Darkspears had extremely hard life before meeting Thrall, so don't go around telling that only belves are the only tragic figures here.

This is when you should have done your homework and/or held up on the bias. Sorry, I didn't know that it was the blood elves fault that the Scourge decided to tear through their homeland and butcher 90% of the population. I didn't know the blood elves were asking to break of from the Alliance because they were so egotistical, instead of being persecuted by racist human supremacists who, if they had it their way, would have exterminated the rest of their race. But no, yea, a troll tribe that had some troubles with a sea witch and her murloc pets is JUST as rough as racial genocide.

Leaving Horde, and plotting to join Horde's enemy are two different things. Vol'jin spent almost half of his life as one of the Horde's founders, he was against Garrosh, but he cared to deeply doe Horde, it was as much his creation as was Thrall's and Cairne's, they were brothers after all, those bounds cannot be that easily shattered. While Blood elves joined Horde becuase it was convenient for them, they shared nothing with other races of the Horde, they used to be mortal enemies previously. So it makes even less sense. Theron did nothing for the Horde, he was absent for a really long time. And he was seeking aoudience with Wrynn in hope of rejoining Alliance. there were no ties for him, he did no investment, he had no real bounds here apparently. so he wanted to join other more civilized party.

Vol'Jin despite the fact that his people were equally bad treatened, stayed in, and prepared revolution. He is the one who wants to stop the bloodshed, and Garrosh.

Because he really woudn't do a job. He is traitor, he can be good leader for blood elves, but he is not solid at all. He did nothing for the Horde, he don't get the Horde, and he is stuck there just because that's all he have right now. You can't revard such a person by giving him such a power. That's an absurd.

I'm so sick and tired of this argument. Short version this time, the rest is said about 20 times in this thread, not that you've read it clearly: The rebellion looked like it was going to fail or never happen, Vol'jin was presumed dead, Garrosh looked like nothing could stop him, Lor'themar wanted his people out but knew that they wouldn't be able to survive on their own so could only turn to the Alliance for help. Once these bridges are burned and Vol'jin turned out to be OK, Lor'themar dedicated his full force to the rebellion after the clean up at IoT.

But seriously If you want belf for warchief, then why don't you reroll alliance? Anyone who is ok with it, clearly don't get the Horde at all.

Because despite having mostly orc and tauren characters, with not a single blood elf on my account, I have accepted since Burning Crusade that the blood elves are part of the Horde and are equal to any other race in it. People always like to quote Vol'jin on about how the Horde are a "family", only to go on to alienate the goblins, blood elves, and forsaken, and how they could never understand that concept. I'd be proud to have a blood elf as my Warchief, because Lor'themar and the blood elves have as much right to call themselves proud members of the Horde as Thrall, Vol'jin, Baine, and all the rest of the Horde do.

you simply ignoring or denying every point that isn't saying your favorite character isn't the perfect decision you're pushing for him to be is not the same as not having given valid points. and most of the counterpoints haven't been "blown out of the water" they've been met with what equates to "well..hey look at this other thing that I think makes him look good!" vol'jin may have had thoughts of leaving, but unlike lor'themar he never acted on them. if not for the dalaran purge he WOULD have left to join the alliance without even having looked to the rest of the horde for aid. on the "blame the devs" they've had plenty of time to show him and when they finally did THAT'S when all of the love for him spontaneously came into being. you don't think he was "scared to act" go look at his leader short story, even going to northrend is a decision that's made for him by sylvanas.

lor'themar has had a dedicated council helping him manage things around silvermoon consisting mostly of the decision making and support of romath and halduron, he has otherwise, from what's shown, been simply following whatever sylvanas or garrosh say. and I never said sylvanas would ONLY use it because of garrosh forcing her into fights, I'm saying she wouldn't use it AS MUCH. gilneas was a fight she was forced into by garrosh, that is the largest use of plague we actually see in game aside from the unexplained circumstances of southshore, and she uses it there because garrosh managed to screw up the initial assault so badly she had to in order to keep an advantage. also if you're going to make a comment based on my punctuation and way of typing in an attempt to discredit me, let me help you out. [email protected][email protected]%[email protected]!%[email protected]^!^$#^.

so...you're saying no to vol'jin because your speculation on what ifs...and you're saying that unless someone is the bestest of friends with the alliance there can't be peace... right.. you then try to discredit baine who has about as much good leadership of his people as lor'themar has shown for the same reason you say I can't shoot down lor'themar. read lord of the clans then look into the amount of time between when thrall started leading all the orcs of the new horde and when he actually gained the support and friendship of the trolls and tauren..unlike lor'themar he didn't get from competent leader to leader of an entire major faction instantly like people want. and your dismissal of saurfang is yet again just saying "he's not bestest friends with the alliance, somehow that means he can't get peace with the alliance without having been a member of the alliance"

saying a race was or was not part of the alliance shouldn't impact their ability to not declare war like idiotic children, that's simply personal decisions and goals. and yes I agree with you no leader should be chosen or denied based on race, but that's part of my annoyance with this sudden "lor'themar for warchief" push. people seem to be pushing lor'themar more simply because he is a member of the most "alliance like" of the horde races (and no I don't say that meaning he should be in the alliance, they have good reasons not to be in the alliance), claims that the bloodelves should come to the forefront are almost all backed up by saying the horde needs to advance or "we have enough orcs vs humans".

yes I get that you think I'm arguing the same points and that you think none of them have any negative effect towards lor'themar, I understand that. but. JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKE A CHARACTER DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD IGNORE THE NEGATIVE PARTS OF THEIR STORY! IGNORING THAT LOR'THEMAR ACTIVELY PLANNED TO ABANDON THE HORDE, THAT HE, MUCH LIKE GARROSH, WOULD BE PUSHED TO LEADERSHIP DIRECTLY AFTER A LONGSTANDING LACK OF CONFIDENCE, AND THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN WANT HIS OWN OFFICE BUT IS SUPPOSEDLY MEANT TO ACCEPT BEING WARCHIEF IS IDIOTIC.

but don't worry, I suspect somehow you will continue to ignore all points against him as ineffective but swear up and down your own arguments in his favor make him the best candidate ever.

A good leader does what is best for his people. As of that time, Lor'themar's people were the Sin'dorei. He took the oath yes, the same oath all the other leaders did - to protect and guard each other. But where was Vol'jin when the blood elves were being thrown to the wolves by Garrosh? Some family, eh?

Furthermore, there is a small part in Tides of War where Garrosh summons Lor'themar to Orgrimmar:

Garrosh later summons Lor'themar for a private audience, thanking him for his loyalty. When prompted to discuss the nature of said loyalty, Lor'themar makes it clear that he is loyal to the Horde, though Garrosh reminds him that he is the Horde. Lor'themar corrects him, stating that he is merely its leader. As Garrosh observes the sin'dorei retinue leave Orgrimmar, he uneasily concludes that Theron in particular is worth watching.

This makes me think that Garrosh tried to get Lor'themar to leave, putting the stealing of the Divine Bell and the Purge of Dalaran in a whole new light. Perhaps getting Lor'themar to the breaking point was Garrosh's plan all along, to get the Blood Elves out of the Horde and get the others to turn on them.

As for the lack of wanting an office, the best leaders are those who do not actively pursue power. THe best leaders are those who are pushed into the role - and they generally come to terms, and accept and excel at the role they are given. It happened with Thrall, it happened with Vol'jin - hell, it happened with George Washington (he didn't want to lead the military, much less become President of the nation).

I don't care that Lor'themar is the most "Alliance-like" of the Horde - because the Blood Elves aren't. It doesn't matter anyways, because Lor'themar is, by and large, one of the most qualified people we have for the job. I'm saying to to Vol'jin because he, much like Cairne, actively went against Thrall's wishes (the same Thrall who Vol'jin says what the Horde should be). And yes, yes Thrall did. He was pushed into the role of Warchief when Doomhammer died his untimely death.

On to the Vol'jin/Cairne stuff: Before Thrall left, he asked Cairne, Etrigg, and Vol'jin to help Garrosh out, to guide him into the role of Warchief and stand by him. THis was to keep the peace, reign Garrosh in, and keep the Horde in Thrall's ideals. We saw how well that went over. Cairne immediately told Thrall that is was a bad idea and challenged (and died, due to Magatha's interference) Garrosh for the Warchief's throne. Vol'jin immediately upped-and-outed from Orgrimmar. SO Vol'jin, the same Vol'jin who claims to be upholding Thrall's ideals of a better Horde, went against Thrall in the first place. Had he and Cairne not, we might very well not be here arguing this right now.

As for Lor'themar's credentials: He spent a good few years as Ranger-General (after Sylvanas died; he was her second-in-command, if memory serves), leading the Farstriders and defense of the kingdom from the remnants of the Scourge. After that, he was thrown into the regency. He, as per Kael'thas' request, was guided and helped, shaped into the leader he is today. He was built upon, in the same way Garrosh ought to have been by Cairne and Vol'jin. And what do we see? He is a really good person and leader, which is why I advocate him for becoming Warchief (and King of Quel'thalas, but that's a different matter entirely).

So yes, the beginnings of Lor'themar's and Garrosh's insertion to leadership roles are much the same. The difference is Lor'themar's aides helped him as they were asked, while those who were asked by THrall to help Garrosh told Thrall and Garrosh to fuck off. That's why Lor'themar should be Warchief and Vol'jin shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by tinyninja

There is no way in hell I or anyone else should go through the effort of reading through that wall of text if you can't be bothered to put in some effort yourself and use some damn capitilization. I know you don't care because you think it's not important but it is, because your posts are literally eyesores. Not that you're talking about anything new that we haven't already refuted about four pages back.

Eh, I took the effort to. Hope he doesn't just go "LOL LOR'THEMAR SUCKS" on me, since I'm just joining the argument.

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As well, read this. It's from his journal:

I cannot remember the last time I told anyone such a bald-faced lie, even since I was forced into politics. But I did lie to Aethas, and he knows it, and I know it, and anyone who heard me say it knows it. My will means very little, in fact. I can pretend my power is real, but in the end, it is all an act, and none of it is honest. I can wash my hands of it, play martyr, be victimized, and accomplish nothing, or I can fight and victimize others in my turn and thus become the essence of all I have battled. If I have ever rationalized my choices using any other logic, I was certainly lying to myself. Hawkspear was right: I deal with the devil indeed, but the Sunwell may never have been restored had we not sunk to those levels. He and Aurora can sleep soundly, knowing they have never compromised their ethics, but if they deny that they prosper in the wake of those who have, then they delude themselves as much as I.

Here I find myself so close to believing that the ends justify the means. But the ruins of the Magisters' Terrace will haunt me forever, reminding me of the fate I tempt with that thought. This is the line I walk, finally knowing that the actions I take in necessity are nonetheless indefensible. Those truths can never be reconciled, but sometimes I can hold them both side by side and almost understand. I might call this revelation profound if I were ignorant enough not to realize that I am only learning what Kael'thas, and Anasterian before him, had also learned in their turns. All we can do is walk the road we are given with such dignity as we can muster, each to our own glory or demise, and pray that there yet remains something of our own hearts when all is said and done. By the Sunwell, I hope that there will remain something of mine.

I loved the ending of that so much I made it my Senior Quote for my graduating yearbook. You can't tell me that he wouldn't make a fantastic Warchief. If you'd like the context, it's from his short story on the WoW website.

EDIT: Do note that that entry is from just before the release of Wrath, lorewise. Since then, he's obviously thrown off Sylvanas' bindings, as the Sunwell and the recently-acquired Blood Golems (as well as the possible, hopefully shown if they ever re-do the starting zones, reversed corruption of the Ghostlands), combined with the Lich King's death (meaning less Scourge), means that they no longer need to rely on Sylvanas' Forsaken to defend their borders.

Lor'themar has become a ruler balancing a fierce love for his country together with the weight of his peoples' burdens, though his responsibilities were not always so heavy. Years before his regency, Lor'themar was a patriotic and passionate ranger, with a talent for both battle and strategy. Lor'themar took pride in his role as a Farstrider and a warden of the Sunwell, which the great traitor Dar'Khan Drathir exploited for his own gain. Lor'themar holds guilt for his inability to see through Dar'Khan's betrayal, and further remorse for the exile he imposed on the quel'dorei who opposed Rommath's teachings; Lor'themar reasoned that he could not lead a nation divided. Theron was hit hard by the betrayal of Prince Kael'thas, with the future of the country falling into his lap alone.

As the regent lord of Quel'Thalas, Lor'themar has become highly versed in the world of politics, able to quickly deduce hidden meanings and often see through the masks of those within (and out of) his sphere of influence. Though authoritative (and not afraid to exert that authority), Lor'themar values the opinions of his advisors, in matters of state and beyond. The life of a politician is not something Lor'themar ever craved, however; ever the ranger at heart, Lor'themar enjoys a good fight.

Lor'themar places the safety of Quel'Thalas and its people high above all else. Lor'themar's loyalty is clear in this regard: he will not suffer allies who would harm his people, and will not shy from negotiating with his enemies or plotting rebellion to secure his people a future.

Though the burdens of leadership have weighed heavily on Lor'themar's shoulders in the wake of Prince Kael'thas' betrayal, under his leadership Quel'Thalas has survived many of its darkest days. He has resolved to see his people overcome their struggles, and lead them into a prosperous future.

I'm just going to re-post this every other page or so. No one has challenged it yet, and I think I put forth a few good reasons and counter-arguments.

Being a big fan of Blood Elf and Undead characters and their lore in general I would love Lor'Themar as the new Warchief.

Also this:

Wrathion: But that idiot idiot, Wrynn, High King indeed. Why did he allow another Warchief, he could of united the world under the Alliance banner.

Lor'themar Theron says: Now, I look at our Warchief, and I begin to see the very same racism. He is willing to throw away our lives for his agenda.
Lor'themar Theron says: Know this: I won't stand idle if the Horde interests conflict with those of my people. I may reconsider old Alliances.

King Varian Wrynn says: I was trying to negotiate with the Sin'dorei. I was opening discussions to bring them into the Alliance! By attacking their people, you've forced their hand-

Right there it seems like this is the reason as to why Varian aloud a Warchief to be chosen. And it was stated that his choice will cause even more friction between him and Jaina, and by allowing a new Horde leader could do just the trick for such friction. And while I would expect Thrall to simply reclaim the title of Warchief, it seems like for some reason he has no say or is missing during the decision.

I really do not get the elf homo jokes.... other than their quotes, appearance wise they are some of the manliest elves I ve seen in any mmo.
Apparantely though if you have a slim body and you are not an oversized muscular chimpanzee you are considered gay in this game.

Even though I don't care much for gender stereotypes, I couldn't read your post with a straight face...really? :P I guess you're entitled to your opinion.

All I have left to say about blood elves is, most of the people who either love or hate them do so for the same reason: they are an exceptionally pretty race, particularly for the Horde.

Never speak for 'most' if you can't back it up. I love the Sin'dorei because of their backstory. I think they're an awesome race that's been through hell and I view them as the underdog, especially since much of the sexual insecure gaming community hates them because they make them tingle in their special place and that makes them scared.

Never speak for 'most' if you can't back it up. I love the Sin'dorei because of their backstory. I think they're an awesome race that's been through hell and I view them as the underdog, especially since much of the sexual insecure gaming community hates them because they make them tingle in their special place and that makes them scared.

I don't need to back it up, over 1 out of 3 Horde characters in this game is a blood elf. Most people picked the race for looks first, lore second. The lore isn't really all that compelling, in my opinion. And the Forsaken are the ultimate underdogs on the Horde side, not blood elves.

I don't need to back it up, over 1 out of 3 Horde characters in this game is a blood elf. Most people picked the race for looks first, lore second. The lore isn't really all that compelling, in my opinion. And the Forsaken are the ultimate underdogs on the Horde side, not blood elves.

Yeah that is why their warmachine ran rampart through the eastern Kingdom, crushing almost all opposition in its wake. The forsaken are many things, but certainly no underdogs.

He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

I don't need to back it up, over 1 out of 3 Horde characters in this game is a blood elf. Most people picked the race for looks first, lore second. The lore isn't really all that compelling, in my opinion. And the Forsaken are the ultimate underdogs on the Horde side, not blood elves.

Exactly.

Numbers you pull out of your ass shouldn't be used for arguments. Ass numbers are worthless.

And yes, the Forsaken, who could quite probably plague bomb the entire world and are a veritable war machine in their own right, are totally the underdogs, rather than the race who has barely 10% of their population left (less, considering all the wars that have been going on).

I don't need to back it up, over 1 out of 3 Horde characters in this game is a blood elf. Most people picked the race for looks first, lore second. The lore isn't really all that compelling, in my opinion. And the Forsaken are the ultimate underdogs on the Horde side, not blood elves.

Numbers you pull out of your ass shouldn't be used for arguments. Ass numbers are worthless.

And yes, the Forsaken, who could quite probably plague bomb the entire world and are a veritable war machine in their own right, are totally the underdogs, rather than the race who has barely 10% of their population left (less, considering all the wars that have been going on).

So you're telling me that 30% of Horde characters are blood elves solely due to lore and their character models have nothing to do with the reason why there is at least 1-3 blood elf threads on wow forums each week? I can't even remember the last time I read a thread from players requesting new class/race combos for a race other than blood elf.

So you're telling me that 30% of Horde characters are blood elves solely due to lore and their character models have nothing to do with the reason why there is at least 1-3 blood elf threads on wow forums each week? I can't even remember the last time I read a thread from players requesting new class/race combos for a race other than blood elf.

No, I'm not telling you a specific number, because I don't like pulling random ass numbers out of my ass to use in an argument.

So you're telling me that 30% of Horde characters are blood elves solely due to lore and their character models have nothing to do with the reason why there is at least 1-3 blood elf threads on wow forums each week? I can't even remember the last time I read a thread from players requesting new class/race combos for a race other than blood elf.

No, but it's just as stupid to think that most of the people who play blood elves only do so because of how they look. I'd say most people take both the lore and the looks when they pick their characters. I personally find that orcs have one of the worst models in the game, and yet half of my characters are orcs. You can't say that people like blood elves only because of how they look, because unless you have already led a study into it, you can't prove it. It's evident from this thread that there are people who pick blood elves because of their lore, so it's more logical to assume that people like both aspects of the race, and that is why they are so popular.

No, I'm not telling you a specific number, because I don't like pulling random ass numbers out of my ass to use in an argument.

As I said, ass numbers are worthless.

I am sure there are players that genuinely like the lore, but I would be very surprised if the majority of players didn't roll blood elf due to the character models. And I don't think there is anything wrong with rolling a race because you think it's pretty, but the disproportionate amount of blood elves tells me that lore is very likely not the only reason why people play blood elves.

A poll would be interesting, but I'm not certain people would be honest regarding why they rolled their particular race.