I personally like Zhuge Liang because of his great inventions and other stuff, but I guess he is kinda overrated. I also think that Guo Jia and Jia Xu were also quite intelligent. I want to point out that Zhou Yu would have been a better strategist (don't get me wrong, he was pretty smart) if he hadn't died so young.

I personally like Zhuge Liang because of his great inventions and other stuff, but I guess he is kinda overrated. I also think that Guo Jia and Jia Xu were also quite intelligent. I want to point out that Zhou Yu would have been a better strategist (don't get me wrong, he was pretty smart) if he hadn't died so young.

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Agree!

Zhuge Liang is a great inventor but too much powerful in novel. I think the author of SGYY is Kongming's fanboy, that's why he made Zhou Yu as a bad guy. Because the real Gongjin is more superior than Kongming.

I like Jia Xu and Guo Jia too. But still, i prefer Lu Xun.

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"He who wins people, prospers; he who loses them, fails. Your present plan should be to seek humans of high aims and farseeing views, and you can establish yourself firmly."

danuracula wrote:I think the author of SGYY is Kongming's fanboy, that's why he made Zhou Yu as a bad guy. Because the real Gongjin is more superior than Kongming.

Going to disagree here.

LGZ probably made Zhuge Liang the God-mode ridiculous character for a number of reasons. Culture already there played a part in his picks, he needed Liu Bei to be mr virtue so had to dumb down Liu Bei from a very skilled warlord to someone who needs support, Zhuge Liang appears just before Liu Bei turned his fortunes around (which was down to Liu Bei rather then Zhuge Liang but makes convenient narrative timing). Shu lacked a strategist historically for LGZ to use in epic strategy duels, Zhuge Liang as Shu's main commander after CiC means LGZ has to do battles with him anyway and he has to build this up. Make those battles a big Zhuge Liang vs Sima Yi strategist fight, make Zhuge Liang Liu Bei's super strategist who turned it around, makes for a great read and makes sense. He also makes ZGL into a jerk which he wasn't historically.

It does mean the historical Zhuge Liang gets a backlash. He was a skilled commander and a genius in many other spheres but not someone with daring tactics but when people find out he wasn't a walking god mode, it tends to get hit too hard the other way.

Zhou Yu if anything benefits from the novel when people talk about history, people talk about how Zhuge Liang got overhyped while ignoring that Zhou Yu got considerable benefit too. Where Zhou Yu gets shafted is personality, he was a generous and good man according to the histories and novel makes him petty and jealous. In terms of abilities, the historical Zhou Yu was a very good commander under Sun Quan and a key support whose death was a huge blow to Wu. That's it. He was never a strategist but LGZ makes him one, his role in Wu's founding (historically used as "hold this for me while I go fight" by Sun Ce) is really really built up by LGZ who builds up the novel Zhou Yu to something more then he was historically becuase he wants ZGL to have an early rival.

Was Zhou Yu a better commander then Zhuge Liang historically? Yes. So were a lot of other people, Zhuge Liang's strength lay in many other areas. Better as a strategist? No but Zhou Yu never was one historically and that's ok

Edit: see my next post for corrections

“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

Dong Zhou wrote:Was Zhou Yu a better commander then Zhuge Liang historically? Yes. So were a lot of other people, Zhuge Liang's strength lay in many other areas. Better as a strategist? No but Zhou Yu never was one historically and that's ok

What is the definition of "a strategist" for you?

For me, Zhou Yu decides to go war against Cao Cao after seeing the situation is a strategy. So Zhou Yu is a strategist.

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"He who wins people, prospers; he who loses them, fails. Your present plan should be to seek humans of high aims and farseeing views, and you can establish yourself firmly."

Someone who creates plans on how to defeat the foe/expand the kingdom. So Zhou Yu's two kingdom plan makes him a strategist, Lu Meng's Jing plan, Zhuge Liang's three kingdom plan so I'll withdraw 1 part and one other line and change it to

He was never a tactician but LGZ makes him one

Was Zhou Yu a better commander then Zhuge Liang historically? Yes. So were a lot of other people, Zhuge Liang's strength lay in many other areas. Better as a strategist? Each to their own as to who had the better long term plan. Better as a tactician? No, Zhou Yu used others for that which is not a bad thing.

“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

Someone who creates plans on how to defeat the foe/expand the kingdom. So Zhou Yu's two kingdom plan makes him a strategist, Lu Meng's Jing plan, Zhuge Liang's three kingdom plan so I'll withdraw 1 part and one other line and change it to

He was never a tactician but LGZ makes him one

Was Zhou Yu a better commander then Zhuge Liang historically? Yes. So were a lot of other people, Zhuge Liang's strength lay in many other areas. Better as a strategist? Each to their own as to who had the better long term plan. Better as a tactician? No, Zhou Yu used others for that which is not a bad thing.

This is the difference. strategy(long term objectives and plan of action) and tactics(short term methods of overcoming obstacles in pursuit of the longer-term strategy).

So, we still don't know how good is Zhou Yu as a tactician because he died soon after proposing his 2 kingdoms strategy. He has no chance to show his tactics because he died early.

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"He who wins people, prospers; he who loses them, fails. Your present plan should be to seek humans of high aims and farseeing views, and you can establish yourself firmly."

The problem for that that Zhou Yu had plenty of battles in which to show a flair for tactics, he never did. He was very good at listening to advice and using it but not creating his own. That ability to listen helped make him a very good commander so I'm not dismissing him but we can't call him a tactician.

Whereas we can certainly call the novel Zhou Yu a tactician which is my wider point.

“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”