The truth about a complex built for veterans and the middle class and how it has evolved through the years to become one of the more interesting and controversial of New York stories.

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Management has two priorities: 1) Making sure money is made, hence upgrading and filling up apartments is their goal. "Amenities" are important in selling the place, though few residents use them. 2) If someone needs medical attention, Public Safety will be there, if alerted.

Quality of life issues are not that important, however. Things like the carpet rule or outsider dogs. These "rules" tend to be ignored, on purpose it seems. So you will see a lot that isn't taken care of properly, and complaints will be met with a creative excuse and a smile.

"Peace and quiet" must be a cruel joke, though this property is sold that way. There can be no peace and quiet as ALL apartments must be upgraded, which includes the installation of an AC unit below the window. Aside from the continual construction about the neighborhood, there is a new and noisy subway extension being built along East 14 st and the shut down of the L line. "Choosing" to live in NYC, now the newest mantra, is a fabrication when the talk is of ST and PCV, which was traditionally quiet, with no construction noise.

Though money was always important, it is now more important than ever. Money rules many things, as you will find.

At this point, 30 years into living here and seeing many things, I can state that Management and their reps are BS-ing us. I can't say that loudly enough: We are being BS-ed. I don't see any genuine change, though the "selling" of this place is intense. Few of the "rules" will be enforced, as Management doesn't want to lose customers or potential customers. Where personal integrity is a hallmark of an excellent management style, this integrity is not seen in enforcing some of the rules.

About those "club cars" we see going this way and that way, and outside of Stuy Town or Peter Cooper Village:

Sunday, January 22, 2012

The Push

The above may have been slipped under your door, or will be. It's a Tenants Association flyer, printed on heavy stock, promoting "taking control of our future" via the condo conversion plan that's being set up between the TA and Brookfield Asset Management. The quality of the flyer suggests money involved, so I suspect its chiefly, if not exclusively, money from Brookfield that went into printing it.

There's zero new info, however, so it's still the TA/Brookfield trying to get the world out. Attached is a card one mails in (or deposits at the Oval Concierge!) where one can indicate: 1) Notify me about ways to join the conversation, 2) Contact me about helping the TA spread the word about the plan, and 3) Contact me about joining the TA.

The flyer notes that "6,951 units signed pledges in support of the TA exploring options to develop a tenant-led bid." And: "We believe our plan is the best way to protect current residents and to permanently maintain the middle-class character of our community."

As for the buzz word "affordability," used with such carefree smoothness by both politicians and the TA, we have this on what the plan would also do: "Explore avenues for public support with the ultimate goal of establishing a set of permanently affordable rental units for the next generation of tenants."

The flyer admits that "we're just at the beginning of this process" and that "prices for the units have not been determined yet...."

I'm kinda tired of this constant beginning process, however, and the circling of wagons around it, and very eager to learn specifics, just as I'm sure we all are.

If the question is directed at me, I don't think the TA is conspiring against tenants (maybe it's just conspiring, period), but I also don't think going condo is necessarily good for tenants. But, really, there is no plan at this point. So we wait until the plan takes shape and details emerge.

I am becoming more and more suspicious of the TA and the politicians involved. I feel pretty sure I will not be a buyer. If you don't have a feeling of trust, and that is very difficult in this situation with all the secrecy and back room dealing, then it is not a good idea to sink your money into something as major as this. Just my gut feeling. Don't expect others to feel the same way.

I just think it's far too early to judge anything. I do hope I can afford to buy, but I if can't, I'm in the same position as I am now.

I do hope the TA isn't overselling this and then the actual terms don't measure up. But again, we won't know that until we see the offer. We can't view ourselves as such victims. I can assess an offer and determine if it's a good deal, and certainly have the sense to run it by a lawyer and retain one for the actual purchase if I do want to buy. But I'm certainly not a sitting duck, like it seems like you are painting us.

I have put posts about this on my blog which STR was kind enough to advertise for me (www.pcvstconversionforum.blogspot.com.). I've had over 700 visits but very few comments. Not to steal any of STR's fire, but I've set up for all the back & forth in the world to occur.I've noted that the TA has not enabled communication about its actions. Go to the 2 TA websites. You'll see they've provided no ability for people to comment about their articles. All one way communication. As if they're afraid to invite counter-reaction.I am in favor of seriously considering conversion. I think everyone should keep an open mind at this point & keep asking questions. You don't want to make a decision that you'll greatly regret later.But the TA has shielded folks from the Guterman-Westwood plan which is definitely worthy of consideration and has endorsed Brookfield when Brookfield has not even presented a full plan and a price. That makes no sense to me.

To be honest, Guterman seems a bit like Herman Cain to me, kind of a shyster, fast-talking, not alot of substance. I don't think I would feel very comfortable engaging in a real estate transaction with him.

Just so everyone knows, the TA has previously stated that it will not be making an offer to CW Capital until the latter part of the first quarter, that means March at the earliest, though I heard mention at the last TA meeting that it wouldn't be until April. Obviously, no information about the pricing of apartments can happen until after that. And if CW Capital can't be persuaded to sell to us, all bets are off.

"To be honest, Guterman..."Actually, I have that impression of Barry Blattmen from Brookfield. Here's a interview with Guterman from 2010. He doesn't strike me like Herman Cain at all.http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf02qo_guterman-says-ackman-will-lose-stuy_news

Gutterman has the most experience in this Arena, rental conversion to Coop.

I'm also disappointed that we didnt go with him, or at least consider him further, his plan was cheap. Brookfield might jackup the price so they get closest to 15% of people buying so they can sell the units that people didnt buy at market prices later.

I'm hoping that prices will be in the $500 PSF range, give or take for location and floor, equals 475Kfor a 2br, 375K for a 1br.

Any more than that isnt that great of a deal, considering possible maintenance and RET costs. What is market at this point? 750 PSF?

I will probably put a post on my blog tomorrow about Garodnick's disparaging statements about Guterman-Westwood. His statements definitely imply that under Brookfield we will have to pay more money to buy. Who knows...after all details are known, if put to a vote, maybe the tenants (not necessarily the TA Exec Board) would want to go with G-W.I hope no one is under the impression that the TA Exec Board's decision really matters. What matters are combination of factors that will bear on CW's decision: amount of $ rendered, likelihood of the plan to pass NYS Attorney General review, the number of tenants who seem likely to buy under the different plans and what CW can sense about the level of tenant happiness or dissatisfaction with each plan.

‘Allenby: Look, Lawrence, I'm making my big push on Damascus the 16th of next month and you are part of it. Can you understand that? You're an important part of the big push! Lawrence (pounding on the table): I don't want to be part of your big push! Allenby: What about your Arab friends? What about them? Lawrence (the wounds on his back from his whipping bleed through his uniform as he speaks): I have no Arab friends. I don't want Arab friends. Allenby: What in hell do you want Lawrence? Lawrence: I told you. I just want my ration of common humanity.’

When in doubt, I always go to LOA. As a life time tenant here, whatever comes, RS, coop, condo, etc., that’s all I want as well.

Thought I would share this information. I just spoke with the woman who heads the condo board at Parkchester South. 8200 units there. She told me that the costs for a 2 BR apt there (loan principal, interest & maintenance) would cost about $600 per month. Add about $40/per month for taxes. She said that at one point they needed to take out a loan for $100 million for renovation. She said that loan costs her about $35 per month. Even if we double the charges because we're in Manhattan, that will easily beat what I'm paying.

Actually, the woman I spoke to bought a long time ago. So that reduces her burden. Even so, with the speculation about how much maintenance might go up, you'd think that she would be paying much more. At any rate, the time will come when all the plan sponsors will need to produce figures and should openly answer all such challenging questions.

I am one of those tenants hopeful of buying into a conversion that makes sense. I would assume monthly maintenance would be at least $1,000, and most likely more. I would be happy to spend more if it meant an increase in the number of porters on premises. The trash rooms are just awful on a daily basis.

As long as this place is being run by a Tishman or a CW or any other non-tenant owner, the focus will be on one thing: the bottom line.

A tenant-owned property, where profit is not a driving motive, seems like it would foster a nicer place to live.

Gutterman is one of the sleaziest real estate guys in an industry known for less-than-honorable people. Nothing he says can be trusted. And where did that fantasy number of $500/foot come from? That is something for Harlem or Queens....not prime Manhattan.

You understand that if a co-op/condo conversion is successful the price has to be lower than what the market is, right? If market is 750 - 800 PSF, a proper discount to get people interested would be 500PSF, if that is the number they will be offered at, who knows, I am simply defining what it should be.

MBarr, I disagree with what you are saying CW is considering when accepting a bid, they are mostly concerned with getting $3B back for their bond holds, little else.

"Guterman sleazy" - Prove it. I don't mind statements like that so long as you can prove it. I did a search on the internet. I found only one person complaining that Guterman's company was late on some leasing payments. If you can't prove what you're saying by showing references on the internet, I think your comments should be discounted as baseless smears.

I don't disagree that CW is looking to the money first but if the plan isn't legally compliant or likely to be rejected by the NYS Attorney General's office, CW won't choose it. It would just be a big waste of time. The other big factor is whether or not any plan will get the 15% necessary buy-in. If the price per sq ft is $500, 15% might be doubtful. Around $400 per sq ft would probably sail. Around $300, I think there would be a very high buy rate.

Here is how I work out Guterman-Westwood number which is $315/sq ft. According to this plan, they're shooting for a very high buy rate. As much as 80%. And any apts that stay rental will be sold to a non-profit agency at $315 sq ft & will stay rental in perpetuity. They will sell any vacant apts at mkt rate over the next 2-3 yrs. Let's say at closing there are 500 vacant apts. So 10,732 units x $315/sq ft x 1000 sq ft avg = about $3.4 billion. 500 units at market rate of $700/sq ft = $350 million. Together = $3.7+ billion. That covers CW primary debt. In addition, G-W will own the commercial space...stores & garages. So they make a nice profit. From what I can see the numbers appear realistic but will greatly depend on a large tenant buy rate.

I think the most likely number will be around $500 PSF, and with that I think they will get 15%, 15%seems to be a drop in the bucket considering the number of market rate/high rent apartments there are.

The commercial property income is a significant component of the operating/maintenance budget. If Guterman takes that money for their own, it is removed from the equation, and then tenants/owners will have to shoulder more of the operating expense. So you'll get a $250k apartment and a much higher monthly maintenance bill.

This is not the type of community that will do well under co-op. The income levels are too varied/low, the buy-in percentage/ability too low, and the risk of individual and overall default is WAY too high. Condo is a much safer and financially sound way to convert that protects the residents from the financial weakness of other residents and separates out the maintenance risks from ownership risks. Guterman's numbers are completely out of thin air and not based on any realistic scenario. They are designed only to tempt us and divert us.

According to what we've heard via the TA, the Brookfield price will not be arbitrary. It will be very carefully crafted from feedback that the TA will help get. Then Brookfield will establish a price point that will be good for some tenants (I'm guessing maybe 30-35%) and will be prohibitive for everyone else. We already know the price G-W will ask. Relatively speaking it IS very cheap. If the TA advisers (Paul, Weiss... and Moelis) can't find any hidden dangers in this plan, then on the basis of price only, this would look like a very good deal.

Mr. Gutterman's entire real estate career took place in the 1980's. The internet did not exist then. Therefore, an internet search would not reveal anything. Just ask someone in the industry. Reputation counts for a lot more than an internet search.

Until There Is Silence No More

The Tenants Association and our then councilman Dan Garodnick have mysteriously remained silent about a purported incident that occurred on July 12, 2017: the mugging by a group of individuals of someone right by Peter Cooper Village, along 20th Street.

I write this on May 3, 2018: Since this year, there have been three suicides in ST/PCV. Aside from silence by almost everyone, there occurred a suicide where sulfuric acid was used and the city had to be called in, including the Fire Dept. As of now, there has been a general state of silence about this suicide, even though other resident lives were at danger. Yes, our councilperson is silent. The TA is silent. Obviously, Management is silent, too.

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"We'll be introducing a new process to identify registered dogs thus enabling Public Safety Officers to clearly approach offending dog owners. The registration will hang from the leash handle; clearly identifying the dog as registered.

"If the dog is not registered by May 1; a summons will be issued at the point of contact. If we learn the dog owner is not a resident, they will be escorted off the property."

Rick Hayduk, CEO and General Manager of PCVST. Letter to Barry Shapiro, February 2016.

STR here: I have been around since the inception of this dog policy and I have NEVER seen anyone escorted out of ST or PCV with their non-lanyard dog. But I have seen, many times, a dog owner from outside, and his/her dog, casually walking through ST or PCV.

THINKING of Renting in PCVST?

Read Yelp reviews to find out what it's like living here. Please note: All apartments are currently "rent-stabilized" but that doesn't prevent apartments from going up to 4K to 6K a month and even higher. How does this happen? Ask our politicians! Fact: Now less than half of the complex's apartments have the old rents and it's getting worse year by year--or better if you are the Real Estate Board of New York!

The Other Yelp Reviews

Yelp can be tricky and bounce reviews for a variety of reasons, like being a member and posting just one review. Very often, however, these reviews hold important truths about what's being reviewed. READ THESE TOO.

BICYCLES, MOPEDS, SCOOTERS, ETC.

Of course, "private property" but "public access" - whatever that means! And if a part of it is public access, do the rules of the city apply to our roads and sidewalks? Or does anything give because this complex is "private property"? Who comes here in case of a fire in one of our buildings? The Stuy Town Fire Brigade?

Hint: Look both ways if you are in the complex. Look on the ground, too!

61.03 Control of dogs and other animals to prevent nuisance. (a) A person who owns, possesses or controls a dog, cat or other animal shall not permit the animal to commit a nuisance on a sidewalk of any public place, on a floor, wall, stairway, sidewalk, lawn, garden or roof of any public or private premises used in common by the public, or on a fence, wall [or], stairway or entranceway of a building abutting on a public place

Banned & Oversize Dog Breeds in Stuy Town

Looks like there is some difficulty in enforcing the ban on certain dog breeds allowed inside Stuy Town/Peter Cooper Village. Somehow pitbulls and pitbull mixes have been registered in STPCV and are allowed to be freely walked about the grounds! Registered dogs in the complex are max 50 pounds. Total, if there is more than one! More than two, it's illegal. It's going to get worse, and, face it, Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village will never be like it once was.

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Read it and Weep

Current Value of ST/PCV

Was 5.4 Billion Dollars when Tishman Speyer bought the place.Became 1.7 Billion Dollars when Tishman Speyer left, with their tail between their legs. Of course, tenants now have to make up the loss.

Ex-landlord

Rob Speyer

1947 Stuy Town Plaque Honoring Met Life Chairman F.H. Ecker (Removed in 2002 and never seen again)

"... who with the vision of experience and the energy of youth conceived and brought into being this project, and others like it, that families of moderate means might live in health, comfort and dignity in park-like communities and that a pattern might be set of private enterprise productively devoted to public service."

I am writing on behalf of everyone at Tishman Speyer to express how honored we are to become part of your outstanding community. We are a business with deep roots in New York, a true love of our city and a great respect for the neighborhoods that make it special. We are committed to maintaining the unique character and environment that have made Peter Cooper Village and Stuyvesant Town such a wonderful place to live for so long. We look forward to providing you an extraordinary level of service and attentiveness that will be the source of pride and satisfaction for the entire community.

Neighborhood Recommendations

New to Stuy Town/Peter Cooper Village? Here are some basic recommendations.

Best supermarket: Associated on 14th St. between 1st Ave. and Ave A. The cheapest prices, fantastic weekly sales, very affordable lunches; solid, responsive management, but earthy. Some of the young female cashiers have attitude to spare, though. May be too far for Peter Cooper residents.

Best gym: Don't waste your money on the Oval Fitness Gym. Instead go to the earthy but real Asser Levy Recreational Center, right above 23rd St on Asser Levy Place (near the FDR Drive). $75 for a year's membership; seniors are almost free. Contains seasonal indoor and outdoor swimming pools, ping-pong table, two pool tables. Called by some rich people who wouldn't get caught going there "the prison gym," and you know why.

A Stuy Town favorite is Lenz's on 20 St. between the 20 St. Loop. The way New York used to be. Be careful of unwanted "pepper" in your food, however. Lenz's got a B grade rating and was temporarily closed down due to an order from the Health Department. Bruno's on First Avenue is more upscale, with a greater selection of food items (higher-priced, too), but was closed down temporarily by the Health Department. Stuy Town's own cafe was closed, too! And not because of all the dogs that hover and piss outside.

Gracefully has two locations, but we prefer for its size the one on 1st Ave. Prices are high and reflect the new tenants that are currently renting Stuy Town and Peter Cooper apartments. ("Do you have a credit card?") We like Gracefully's lunch specials, which are somewhat affordable.

I priced the CVS on 1st Ave near 14st. The non-aerosol hairspray was 20 cents above CVS' own website price, and one of the highest in NY. (Yes, I have hair.) You can save at least a dollar or more buying at another place. So beware. Look around for a better deal on all your items.

I love warm Quaker Oats in the morning. Gristedes is not the place to get it, nor is Associated, though their price is less. Look around!

Macular Degeneration Support Group

If you are currently diagnosed with Macular Degeneration, the New York Eye & Ear Infirmary is offering a support group for you. Conveniently located next to the Peter Cooper Village Stuyvesant Town apartment complex, our group offers the opportunity to share stories with other members, listen to expert guest speakers, and learn coping strategies to reduce stress. Our group runs on the first Wednesday of every month and we would enjoy seeing you there.
Please contact Baptiste Nicolas, Social Work Assistant at 212-979-4105 for further information and to see if this group is right for you!