Simple does not equal easy, or ordinary. Repetitive does not equal boring or unexciting. The song has some dynamic that is well executed, compared to the kinda sloppy "lets just make it real fast at the end!" approach that the band has used at least a couple of times (like on Osca.) The song takes a risk. I don't like it just because its different. Variety was different, and I didn't like that. I like it because its a good song, exciting to listen to, with great texture. It stands out from their catalog because its different.

How is it different from some catch all broad brushstoke catch all? It is produced from a very traditional approach and has some apparent classical (almost symphonic) undertones.

I have often said TJs music is paint-by-numbers. And from a very superficial standpoint you can say about death, not a happy sounding song, screaming vocals, reverb: paint by numbers! But there is clearly more to chew on here than say, Onna no ko wa dare demo, or Sora ga natteiru, or Kensao Naoshi. All those songs are derivative and don't really put a spin on their sound. Fukushuu fits this as well honestly. But Honto no Tokoro reads as very unique and to say this sounds derivative of anything sounds like you haven't heard much of the goth-punk wide brushstroke caricature genre you speak of. I don't mean to say its the most unique, ear exploding song that no ones ever heard anything like, or that it doesn't have anything in common with gothic music, but there's enough of a mixture to keep it interesting and a lot working for the song.

If rough, scratchy vocals and reverby music aren't your thing, that's okay. But to try to say the song is amateur or easy, or uninformed is...well...

Sorry to be crass, but this is all over Honto....? And lyrics in another language anyway? The main appeal of that song for me is not THE LYRICS OR HATA. its Ringo on MOTHERFUCKIN' DRUMS!

I understand where both sides are coming from, but Honto does not seem like the kind of song anyone would argue about... theres nothing particularly unpleasant about it. It's just cool and not Kai Horror Dust awful.

You've got me to appreciate Honto more, Jihad, but I don't know if I would elevate it the same way you do.

Let me just say one more thing, that is is only tangently related to what we are talking about. I am an art student. One of the things we do is peer criticism. I mostly work in sculpture and ceramics. I had to critique somebody elses work, it was a sculpture of a decapitated head (I know...). I said to her "You're going to say this is some major statement about mortality, but I think you just thought it was edgy". She said "Yeah..." (It turns out she was hoping that by doing something shocking the professor would like it more).
That is how I feel.

I don't mean to just pick apart everything but that still seems too lazily dismissive to me. All things you say can be applied to a song like "Fukushuu." Was Ukigumo just trying to be different, and contrary, and hard rocking for the sake of it? Yeah, probably. Was very exceptional outside of that? Did it take any risk? Not really. (I like Fukushuu though and I know and understand that's purely on a personal subjective level. If someone says "its the most awful song ever" I think that's a little overboard, but I get that there's not a whole lot going on.)

But there should be a clear difference between that song and Honto no Tokoro. The band and Hata I think clearly are taking a risk, I don't think its necessarily gratuitous either, just for the sake of it, because I got the feeling the song was supported and built towards on the Color Bars EP. (Contrast with Fukushuu on Variety.) It wasn't just out of nowhere, but was still a leap; and that's exciting. Its the difference between a good decapitated head sculpture and a bad one. Not all of them are bad, and not all of them are good, but there are plenty of questions we can ask to think between the two. How is the expression on the face, what is it made of, how is the sever, how detailed, what idiosyncrasies are there?

It's real easy to dismiss a song like Honto no Tokoro or other songs that may be out of one's comfort zone, just like it may be easy for someone like me to dismiss someone like Kesha. (What? I think you can do far worse in music than Kesha. Sue me, its catchy.) I'm sure there were people that wrote of Shiina Ringo when "Honnou" rolled around too. Oh she's just trying to be shocking (but how is that really bad?)

EDIT:

Originally Posted by gekokujyo

Okay, someone who disagrees tell me what's so effing complex or clever or moving or interesting about the lyrics then. No, really, I want to be convinced.

To say the "songwriting is amateur" just seems selective. is the "songwriting" really different from "Honnou"? There's a verse and a chorus and little else. Perhaps you mean melody, but would a catchy melody really enhance this song? I think the opposite would be true. Would Shiinav Ringo really do a better job at singing the song? Her voice is maybe more "trained" but that's like saying Celine Dion should have sang "Smells like Teen Spirit" (I mean, you know what I mean.) There would have been a mismatch that may not have worked. Hata's voice just strains and cracks so nicely with the rest of the instrumentation.

Maybe what you mean is that it isn't an apparent easy pop song (that even Fukushuu resembles) with clean instrumentation, clean presentable vocals, and focus grouped melodies and you just don't like songs that aren't pop songs. Which is fair.

RE-EDIT: TO BE FAIR the song really doesn't fit the jpop,idol fanbase the band has cultivated since Variety.

I don't get it. I thought the writing was amateur, I thought the vocals were awful, and thus I didn't enjoy the song as much as I did some of the other songs. It's as simple as that. Why are some people so eager to think that we are 'dismissing' it as if there were inherently no validity in any of the songs criticisms, objective or not.

Okay, someone who disagrees tell me what's so effing complex or clever or moving or interesting about the lyrics then. No, really, I want to be convinced. Just telling me that it's different from the rest of the band's repertoire doesn't cut it because by that logic I could similarly lay the same amount of praise on a hypothetical cover of "Heads and shoulders, knees and toes" by.....Paris Hilton. Or something.

EDIT:
Tangential, but the reason I prefer Fukushuu MASSIVELY over Honto is because I think Ringo is just a much greater joy to listen to than Hata is (on this song). There.

I don't get it. I thought the writing was amateur, I thought the vocals were awful, and thus I didn't enjoy the song as much as I did some of the other songs. It's as simple as that. Why are some people so eager to think that we are 'dismissing' it as if there were inherently no validity in any of the songs criticisms, objective or not.

Okay, someone who disagrees tell me what's so effing complex or clever or moving or interesting about the lyrics then.

Maybe I'm not caught up, but I thought the dismissing comments came from TurtleFu's "I think a lot of you only like it because it's different" nonsense.

The lyric aspect just isn't a good angle to attack from because, so far, it's based on one line from the song. It's the only line ever talked about. Wouldn't it be amateurish/foolish of me to pick on the lyrics of 3min based only on the line "You're all alone, you're fixing ramen, you pour hot water in" as my only example? I'm not going to disagree that the lyrics are simple. It just doesn't matter when there are simple lyrics in many of the songs people love.

The vocal angle is a tougher one to judge because it requires a more personal knowledge of who you are talking to. If you like/don't mind Izawa's or Ukigumo's god-awful voices, I can't buy into an argument that Hata's voice spoils the song.

__________________I'd rather have a life of "oh wells" than a life of "what ifs"

^ I like Izawa/Uki's voices when they work together with Ringo's. I think they sound nice as harmonising sounds, just as long as they aren't the Entire song. Which is partly why I hated Kai horror dust.

The reason why we have only been talking about that one line is because that one line is repeated about 4351316 times in the song. We could talk about the other lines, but they involve replacing the 'tanuki' with other nouns, and 'shindara' with other verbs. It's a bit like an elementary school language exercise.

Just for arguments sake, did it bother you that the two-second bassline in OSCA was played 13 times in 30 seconds or that the guitar riff from Shuraba (Adult ver.) was played 4351316 times during the intro and outro? Or does high repetition only matter if it's a vocalist?

I'll also add that the ending for sa_i_ta is one minute too long.

__________________I'd rather have a life of "oh wells" than a life of "what ifs"