With all the zigging and zagging that has occurred in this thread, I thought that it might be useful to pull together in one place what I believe we know about the Buddy’s style pizza based on information available at the Buddy’s website and from the posts of many of our members. In attempting this summary, I am aware that some of the information may no longer apply or may have been modified, as often happens in a non-static business environment. For example, at one time there was a link at the Buddy’s website to some very useful information on the Buddy’s pizzas, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm. However, that link no longer appears at the Buddy’s website—or at least I have not been able to find it. It is hard to know what the disappearance of the above link from its one highly prominent position means (unless they are cheapening their product) but since it is hard to imagine that Buddy’s has dramatically changed the character of its pizzas, I will assume for now that the information at the abovereferenced link is still valid.

Members should feel free to add to the summary presented below or to correct or amplify on any point raised. Here is my summary:

1. Buddy’s uses a “premium grade” flour for its pizza dough, and, based on a recent exchange with Buddy’s, it is bromated (which is common for a Sicilian style dough). The only other dough ingredients are water, yeast and salt. There is no sugar in the dough and there is no oil in the dough per se, although, as noted below, there is oil that is used in shaping the dough and in the pans used to bake the pizzas.

2. According to Buddy’s, the dough is made daily, at each store location, and the dough is double kneaded and allowed to rise for 1 to 1 ½ hours, presumably in pans. Some time ago, after I inquired, I was told that double kneading entails removing the dough from the mixer, patting it out, stretching it, and then panning it. One member has reported (at Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765) that the dough making starts in the morning, for example, from about 8 AM to about 11 AM. That dough is then used during the course of the day to fill orders, with the dough made earliest in the morning (e.g., 8-9 AM) being used for the lunch business. Another member, at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79248.html#msg79248, has reported that the dough in the pans is allowed to rise and is then punched down again. It was also reported, at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73843.html#msg73843, that the dough is quite hard to press out. It has also been reported (at Reply 95 referenced above) that the water used to make the dough is ice cold and that the flour is also cold. That could account for some of the difficulty in pressing out the dough (a warm dough is much easier to work with). However, it is not clear whether the cold ingredients are used all of the time or only in the summer to achieve a relatively constant finished dough temperature when the stores are hotter than usual. Presumably, the pans of dough can be held in coolers to keep the dough from overfermenting/overproofing and removed and allowed to temper as needed to fill orders. If this is the method actually employed, it would not be unusual for different doughs to have different amounts of fermentation. I have seen no evidence that the dough is held overnight (or longer) in coolers.

4. The Buddy’s cheese is a brick cheese blend made especially for Buddy’s by Kraft, in Wisconsin. It is said to be shredded by hand although from a photo of the cheese that I have seen, at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, the cheese blend looks more diced than shredded, or else the shred is a short shred. According to Buddy’s, almost one pound of the cheese blend (15 ounces) is used to make the eight-square pizza. If the amount of cheese blend used for the four-square pizza is used proportionately, I estimate that the amount of cheese blend for that pizza comes to about 8.57 ounces, or 0.1071428 ounces per square inch. In both cases, the cheese blend is distributed to the outer edges of the pizzas to crisp up during baking. The cheese blend is put on the pizzas before the sauce.

6. The pepperoni used by Buddy’s on its pizzas is the Margherita brand. It is a coarse grind pepperoni that is sold under the designation “Coarse Grind Pepperoni”, #38616-31329 (Reply 79, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg69983.html#msg69983). The pepperoni slices are thicker than usual and have been described as being about the size of a quarter. According to Buddy’s, the pepperoni slices are placed under the cheese blend to prevent charring. Based on http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, the four-square pepperoni pizza appears to have 20 pepperoni slices. Extrapolating to the larger size pan (the eight-square pan), a total of about 35 pepperoni slices seems possible.

Despite what we feel we know about the Buddy’s pizzas, there is much we do not know. For example, we don’t know the precise ingredients and quantities of ingredients used by Buddy’s, and we don’t know how much dough is used to make a particular pizza. We would have to purchase a basic Buddy’s pizza, such as a cheese pizza, weigh it, and try to work backwards to arrive at a possible dough weight and thickness factor. I also believe that the use of a bromated flour is an important aspect of the Buddy’s dough, and that the dough preparation and management methods, including hydration values, are also critical to the success of the Buddy’s pizzas. I also think that concentrating on a room-temperature fermented dough, either alone or in conjunction with a period of cold storage (but mainly for dough management purposes rather than for better crust flavor), is a productive way to proceed. I do not believe that “double kneading” is as important as Buddy’s has led us to believe. Some form of stretch and fold, or a rest period in the mixer followed by a final few turns, or a simple punchdown after an initial rise in the pan, should, in my opinion, serve as reasonable substitutes for the Buddy’s double knead method.

Peter

Pete-zza, very cool idea to combine all this info into one post. Tomorrow, 12/11/10, my wife and I are heading to Roselli's to restock on flour (bromated), sauce, yeast, spice pack and maybe some white cheddar. Since a previous post mentioned white cheddar, that got my taste buds memory bank going and that could possibly the missing link in the cheese blend search. Buddy's cheese always had a medium sharp bite to it-probably with a bit of mozz to tame it down. My sauce seems to be a bit thicker than Buddy's. I'm going to mix a full can of sauce with a full can of water. The lady told me to mix 1 can of sauce with a half can water but that may have been for a pie that gets its sauce spread with a spoon-like on a flat round pie. Buddy's sauce needs to almost pour off the spoon. Side note*** My F.I.L. is now a bar/restuarant owner. Long story, but my pizza will probably be on the menu. The place has a double Blodgett oven so I'm waiting to try it out and see how the pies come out-maybe that low inside height will change the pies looks or taste. But the place won't be ready for a few more months. Lots of remodeling to do.

I'm thinking that Buddy's being in the business of making a good product and making a big profit can't be messing around too much. The dough needs to be made early and be ready by the time the lunch crowd arrives. Everything has to be made in big batches and divided up for portion control. Any differences from one location to another probably stems from operators although my mom said that something as simple as humidity can wreak havoc on the dough rising properly. The Warren location is pretty consistant.

Things we are sort of sure of:

10X14 inch well seasoned steel pan that is never washed-just scraped clean and re-oiled.

Oiled with either O.O., veg oil or canola oil.

Bromated flour or bread/cake flour.

Stanislus tomato sauce; heavy w/ basil, 7/11 or full red with very little seasoning added and thinned out

Square pizzas are taken out of pan and served on round trays. (Weird, Huh?)

**SIDE NOTE** Since this thread is mainly about Buddy's, I think I have their salad dressing real close. these proportions are what I use to make a batch. 32 ounces of high quality red wine vinegar. 16 ounces of veg oil. The label on Buddy's carry out bottle says they use soybean oil. Couldn't find it at my local Kroger. 1 yellow onion- about the size of a cue ball or a little smaller, peeled, sliced. 1 lemon. cut ends off and discard. Slice the rest thin. 1 heaping teaspoon of preminced garlic from jar. 1 teaspoon of ground peppercorn. I used a small electric coffee grinder.

Add all ingredients in a jar or other container that can be shook well without it spilling.

Shake well twice a day, then its ready in a week. When ready to use, strain through whatever you have.

Since I tried to pull everything together in the post you quoted, and maybe even starting before, there have been some changes at Buddy's. For one, Buddy's made changes to its website and no longer talks about the double knead method or the Stanislaus tomatoes or the Wisconsin brick cheese. It's hard to know whether Buddy's is just trying to hide what it does or maybe they have changed the way they run their operations. Buddy's is also in the process of reporting their nutrition information, as noted at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp. It is very difficult to reconstruct a product just from Nutrition Facts, but maybe together with other things we believe to be true there is a chance that we can find a few other pieces of the puzzle.

Another change at Buddy's is that they appear to have gone to another cheese source. For example, if you look at the Buddy's menu, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/WebsiteMenu7.2.10.pdf, at page 2, you will see the Foremost Farms logo off to the right. Foremost Farms is a large cheese cooperative that serves the foodservice industry. I was never able to find a Foremost cheese at the retail level, either under the Foremost name or another brand. If you look at some of the Foremost cheese blends, at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/Cheese/1950-127-Brand.php, you will note a few that contain cheddar cheese, however I am not sure whether the cheddar cheese in the blends is a white cheddar cheese. However, there is that possibility since Foremost does sell a white cheddar (see the last item in the list) and the page I cited talks about cheeses used to make the types of pizzas that some Greeks made in the Northeast. The cheeses for the Greek style pizzas, even to this day, use mostly white cheddar cheese, either alone or in blends.

A while back, through email exchanges with Buddy's, I confirmed that the flour is, in fact, bromated, as I had suspected. That change is reflected in the summary you quoted.

On a somewhat related matter, recently I have been working with a couple of our members, including PizzaHog of this thread, to reverse engineer and clone a Jet's square pizza. As you know, Jet's is big in Michigan. I learned that they make and use their dough mainly for same day use but with a one day holdover in the cooler for next day use if needed. They also use steel pans and conveyors. I noted other similarities to the Buddy's system, as well as some differences, but it is quite possible that Jet's was influenced by the Buddy's experience. If you are interested, or if you know something about the Jet's square pizzas that might help with our reverse engineering efforts, you might visit the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.0.html. You can read my analysis to date at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg118161.html#msg118161. There might be something in that post that jogs your memory on some other aspect of Buddy's operation.

BTW, soybean oil is sold as vegetable oil in supermarkets. I know that Kroger sells it because I have some, under the Kroger brand name. Vegetable oil these days is almost exclusively soybean oil although I have seen an occasional soybean oil blend sold as vegetable oil.

Hey Gibby, been a while!I think once you try the white cheddar your brain and taste buds will say Eureka! Unfortunately, I have not been able to secure any from Roselli's. Best I have found is at the Walmart on Hall road near Romeo Plank. 2 lb blocks of Cabot extra sharp white cheddar for less than $7. Blend away or use it straight up for the full monte, it's all good.But now that you are going "pro" (congrats!) you can access the big quantity items. Roselli's told me they sell brick cheese to Cloverleaf and some other's that I can't recall in 40 lb blocks at around $2/lb. I tried some brick off a 40lb block a while ago but not sure if it is the same brand that Roselli's carries. I found it to be too mild after baking but it did blend well with the white cheddar. From the taste and texture it was quite close to what Buddy's is using at the carry out only I tried a while back, but again, not the flavor we grew up with. Somewhere out there is a stronger, more intense brick I bet that may have been the original cheese. But if not, the white cheddar still has that zing and does not turn black on the edge.As far as Buddy's messing around or differences between operators, something is going on. Buddy's as it should be IMHO (see photos) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73872.html#msg73872.Close, but not it (see photos) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715.This has been my experience as well but I shoud really try the Warren or original location again to compare.Agree that 15oz of cheese is over the top and I have had my best results with Stanislaus.What bromated flour are you using from Roselli's and how is that working out for you? I have yet to try bromated on anything.Good luck on your endevour and please post the F.I.L's bar once you get your pizza going. I would definately like to be a customer.Hog

I emailed Buddy's to see what kind of flour they use. Said I had several allergies. They responded back with a short answer that use wheat flour in their pizza's.

I searched and found that Bromated Flour is wheat flour with potassium bromate (KBrO3 ) added to it. Where can this type of flour be bought?

Hey GPIn my locale bromated flour is only avail at wholesale suppliers so maybe your Restaurant Depot membership will provide a source although I would not be surprised if it comes in 20 or 50 lb bags. Pennmac and prob other internet suppliers sell repackaged bromated flour/s in 5 lb bags. I personally have never seen a bromated flour that was not high gluten but not sure if that is universal or just my experience.

I personally have never seen a bromated flour that was not high gluten but not sure if that is universal or just my experience.

Hog,

That is just your experience. As you will see from http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=Espring, there are some spring wheat flours that are not high-gluten flours as we generally know them (around 14% protein) but that have lower protein levels and are bromated. The protein levels can range from about 12.6% (e.g., the GM Superlative and Full Strength), which we tend to view as a bread flour, to as much as 13.6% (e.g., the GM Remarkable and Iron Duke). Because this latter group falls between what we think of as bread flour and high-gluten flour, the flours in this group are sometimes given their own name, like medium gluten flour or premium gluten flour. Winter wheat flours are usually not bromated and all-purpose flours are almost never bromated. I am not sure where the flour used by Buddy's falls in the above flour spectrum. However, we do know that it is bromated.

I gave you GM examples. Similar patterns exist at most of the big flour millers, like ConAgra, Bay State Milling, etc.

I tried making a pizza this weekend using PizzaHog's recipe from a few pages back and was a little disappointed. I have a scale so I calculated the ingredients correctly and mixed it in the kitchenaid for 8 minutes and then let it rest 20 minutes before transferring to a pan. The pan might be where my trouble started - I used a 9x13 grey cake pan (i.e. your standard calphalon baking pan). Also, I used active dry yeast instead of instant yeast b/c that is what I had on hand. I made sure to proof the yeast in warm water for a few minutes before adding it to the rest of the dry ingredients.

Here are the pitfalls of the pizza:

1) Dough did not rise. I let it sit out at room temp for about 4 hours and it really didn't rise much at all. It was probably about 1/8" thick when I put it in the oven. When I think of a Detroit-style, pizza, I think of a pizza with a fairly thick crust (1/2"+), so I knew I was in trouble right off the bat. Maybe I just needed a long rising time?

2) The outer crust did not fry up nicely nor get very crispy; there was almost no crunch to the bottom crust. I used extra virgin olive oil to line the pan, it sounded like people had good results with that. The outside of the dough just didn't get crispy though. Could this be a result of the pan I used and/or the oven not being hot enough?

3) I used white cheddar around the outside but it didn't crisp the same way the cheese does on Buddy's/Jet's pizzas. I put a fair amount of white cheddar around the edge of the pizza but instead of a delicate crispy cheese edge, I got a crunchy, almost burnt cheese edge. Maybe I was too heavy handed on the cheese around the outside?

If anyone has any thoughts, I would greatly appreciate it as I am craving some detroit-style pizza!

and one more question - how do you guys get your pies out of the pan?? maybe this is a function of my pie being so thin, but I could not think of anyway to get my pie out of the pan and still leave it in decent shape.

I make sure that the perimeter isn't sticking to the pan freeing it with a paring knife if necessary. Then I use a fish spatula to lift one end until it clears the lip of the pan and slide the whole pie off the pan.

With all this effort I'm wondering why I am the first one to just try one of their doughs at home. I asked and was able to get a doughball used in a large pizza for four dollars. It wasn't any kind of bargain but I figured if it could help me out with my home recipe for Buddy's I am all for it. I meant to weigh the dough ball but in all my excitement I forgot, fortunately I got plenty of pictures. The dough felt very wet, not as bad as when I made the dough with 90-some percent hydration but it could have been in the 80's. I cooked the dough at 500 degrees for 16 minutes which was probably a little too long but it was still delicious.

Hello. This is my first post.I am a pizza lover and Buddy's is one of my favorites. I live in Reno NV now but grew up in Detroit and have family there and so we visit often.I was in Buddy's on 13 Mile and Van Dyke about 2 years or so ago. The place was very crowded. While waiting to be seated I saw a sign inside talking about Buddy's history and the older women who were cooks. Near that sign was another smaller sign that said the dough was made from a combination of rice, potatoe, and tapioca flour. The next time I went to Buddy's about a year ago that sign was gone. Does any one use or know if this combination of flours is used in any baking? I'm wondering if this is a hint to making their pizza dough. I scanned this thread and didn't see any mention of these flours. What daya think?

Got another question. Anyone ever try bacon grease on the bottom of pan to crisp the crust?

Whoah, too much sat fat there. If you want to crisp it up, you need a cooking oil with a high smokepoint. I use peanut oil, have for years. Haven't found anything better. High smoke point so it retains it's flavor and doesn't get bitter like OO does in a really hot (I bake pizza at 475) oven. Peanut oil has a nice flavor too.

Hello gang, been a while. I saw peanut oil mentioned for lubing your pans before putting in the dough, based on the higher smoke point, and something from my other cooking experiences kicked in.

Clarified butter. Melt butter over low heat. Skim or spoon off the white semi solid matter floating on top (the milk solids) and discard. Use the yellow clear middle layer for oiling pan. Discard the bottm layer (sediment).

Continental cooking does a lot of high temp frying in clarified butter-weiner and Jager schnitzel arew prime examples. The milk solids on top and sediment on the bottom lower the smoking point, which at higher temps will burn, screwing up the look and taste of things (burnt and burnt).

It also helps if you're using the same pans as Buddy's. The blue steel pans from PA products in Livonia. I use them for my pizza with peanut oil. That is how a regionally famous pizza restaurant in northeastern PA has always done it so that's what I did in replicating that pizza. Same baking technique that I'm sure Buddy's uses, oiled blue steel pans at high temps. I use a 12x17 blue steel baking pan at 475 degrees with 2 oz of peanut oil. The pans cool off quickly after the pizza is removed and I just leave what little oil is left in the pan. Occasionally need to scrape a pan side but other than that, they're nearly completely non-stick now. My pizza crisps up nicely.

I assume from your last post that you did not mean to say that Buddy's gets its blue steel pans from P.A. Products. According to a recent news item at http://www.freep.com/article/20110123/COL20/101230384/Shortage-of-steel-pans-has-Detroit-style-pizza-makers-scrambling, it appears that Buddy's may have been getting its pans from a source in West Virginia. When I called P.A. Products to learn more about their pans, I was abruptly informed that they were out of the blue steel pans. I tried, to no avail, to see if they would tell me if they made the pans for Buddy's or Jet's. They professed to have no idea as to the source of the Buddy's or Jet's pans.

I assume from your last post that you did not mean to say that Buddy's gets its blue steel pans from P.A. Products. According to a recent news item at http://www.freep.com/article/20110123/COL20/101230384/Shortage-of-steel-pans-has-Detroit-style-pizza-makers-scrambling, it appears that Buddy's may have been getting its pans from a source in West Virginia. When I called P.A. Products to learn more about their pans, I was abruptly informed that they were out of the blue steel pans. I tried, to no avail, to see if they would tell me if they made the pans for Buddy's or Jet's. They professed to have no idea as to the source of the Buddy's or Jet's pans.

Peter

Actually, I did. I only assume that they have been using these pans as all 3 sizes of blue steel pans from PA products seem to line up with Buddy's pizza sizes & their proximity to Buddy's. That and the relative rarity of blue steel and the low price of PA's blue steel pans led me to believe that was the case. Buddy's is very similar to the pizza I make which is a replica of a regionally famous pizza restaurant in the area I grew up. That restaurant does use blue steel as I confirmed with the supply house they bought them from years ago. Regardless, having eaten Buddy's, I believe that their pizza is baked in blue steel (that and some of the pics with the woman carrying pans of spread & risen dough earlier in this thread).

I was not aware of any shortage of these pans. I ordered a dozen 12x17's for myself from PA products last year so I assumed nothing has changed. I guess I would have found when I tried to order some smaller pans (probably 8x10's) which I planned to do later this year.

As I noted in item 3 in Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436, I was told by Buddy's that their two pan sizes are 8" x 10" and 10" x 14". When I first became aware of P.A. Products (from another thread), and later when I got involved in reverse-engineering the Jet's pizza, I did not see blue steel pans of those sizes at their website. Either that or I completely missed them, although I recall scouring their pan products very carefully. When I revisited the P.A. Products website tonight, I see that the two Buddy's pan sizes are shown, at http://www.paprod.com/pans.html. So, you may well be correct that P.A. Products is a supplier of the steel pans to Buddy's despite the impression that the sales rep at P.A. Products gave me that he didn't know who supplied the pans to Buddy's. I wonder whether P.A. Products added the Buddy's pan sizes after I researched their pan offerings. Unfortunately, they don't carry the pan sizes that Jet's uses.

I'm a little puzzled about the idea of letting the dough rise in the pans - not at home, but at the actual Buddy's locations. They must serve hundreds of pizzas a day. So they make dough from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m., at which they have literally hundreds of pizza pans, in two sizes, not knowing which sizes people will order, that they stack all over the kitchen, all day?

I'm a little puzzled about the idea of letting the dough rise in the pans - not at home, but at the actual Buddy's locations. They must serve hundreds of pizzas a day. So they make dough from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m., at which they have literally hundreds of pizza pans, in two sizes, not knowing which sizes people will order, that they stack all over the kitchen, all day?

I doubt that they stack them. They use commercial proofers that the trays slide into. These proofers control temp & humidity and come in various sizes holding 60 trays at a time in the large sizes. I'm sure they make an educated guess on how many of each different size tray they need every day. When they need to make a tray, they pull it from the proofer and top it so they always have trays ready to top & bake. here are some commercial proofers: http://www.aaacommercialproducts.com/Commercial-Bread-Dough-Oven-Proofer.html

I worked at Shield's 16& VanDyke location in very briefly early 1980's. I recall the dough being placed in the pans and pepperoni was immediately put on top, then the pans of dough were set aside to "proof" on an open shelf. I guess if you ordered pizza without pepperoni, the kitchen staff would just pick them off as they started to make your pizza.