First off, a preface. This probably doesn't mean anything, but when I first read "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" back in eighth grade, my first mental image of the Deep Ones was something along the lines of a Shoggoth.

Based on what I know of Yidhra (sketchy, to say the least), she seems to me like an Uber-Shoggoth. The female analogue to Ubbo-Sathla.

Thank goodness for Graeme's sake HPL didn't write that - otherwise, we'd be having a discussion on the Deep One Prion, and Graeme'd have to set us all straight. =)

Geez, great minds think alike. I always saw parallels with Shoggoths and protomatter, Proto-shoggoths and Protomatter Spawn. I came up with an idea that the creation of protomatter and protomatter implants is an attempt by the Fun Guys to create their version of Shoggoths.

The Mi-go obviously have some control over "independent" protomatter (witness Operation CONVERGENCE), so here's the devious plot I've come up with: the Mi-go are endeavoring, first of all, to create a stable form of protomatter. After they figure out how to get it stable, they'll modify it slightly, injecting some DNA of their choosing. Then, at a specified time, the protomatter'll launch an assault on the person's genetic make-up, putting in its own stuff. Thing is, what would the Mi-go want to turn us into?

It seems to me this plot could also be exploited by the Brothers of the Yellow Sign.

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:50:43 +0200
From: Davide Mana

Andrew wrote something that started me thinking along a new line. All this is crazy and highly apocryphal, and there are much more questions than answers, I fear, but humor me for a while.

Q: can you "seed" protomatter with DNA?

Protomatter, being… well, _proto-_ stuff, it should be rather low as far as internal organization goes.

Now, what if you can simply inject it with the apropriate DNA in order to induce the required organization? And then, after that, the inseminated protomatter goes on replicating in its newly informed way?

DNA is a wonderful expert system - it can follow the program, and yet update it (and itself) to take variations in the environment into account. DNA as software for protomatter machines?

All those Ultra-Darwinian egoist-gene theories that are generally frowned upon by palaeontologists and see all life as just some special effects helping DNA to replicate itself might hold a much more sinister truth than we think.

A handful of palaeontologists are interned every year as they snap under pressure (the families think they are somewhere on sabbathical) trying to understand the complex link/feedback between environmental pressure, evolution and genetics.

If somebody simply designed DNA as a tool with in-built evolutionary capabilities, everything's suddenly very very simple.

Now, how's that for a basic overview of minimum Elder Thing technology? Were they a race of genetic engeneers so advanced they simply created a DNA for the tool they needed and then used it to infect protomatter as needed? We know precious little about that, but we know they used shoggots, that are probably just a step above protomatter. Shoggots could be the minimum organization form - sort of the Elder Thing swiss army knife tool. The kind of thing you'd carry with you to camping.

On the other hand, when we say Protomatter, we think Mi-Go - because of their dealings with MJ-12 and all the rest.

We know they're smart.

And devious.

And we know they can create synthetic beings.

Q: do the MiGo have access to Elder Thing technology? Complete, no holds barred access to ET technology?

Now what if the Funguys do not have _complete_ control over the process?

You have to admit those funny-looking, five-fold simmetrical critters were pretty advanced, back then long time ago. And from the data in "At The Mountains of Madness", it seems the Elder Things were closer to us, as far as psychological makeup and general outlook on things, than the Funguys will ever be.

We shared "something" (curiosity? will to live? soul?) So what if the Mi-Go are so active and enquiring where humans are concerned because they have access to the end results of the ET technology, as a form of scavenger technology, but not possess the base know-how to duplicate it. Maybe they hope to find something within us…

Project Genome: does DNA carry an attached help-file?

Think about all this, gentlemen.

And flame me gently.

From: Mark McFadden
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:32:28 EDT

« I came up with an idea that the creation of protomatter and protomatter implants is an attempt by the Fun Guys to create their version of Shoggoths. »

Or reverse-engineering shoggotech.

We might not be the only reason the Fun Guys stick around a dangerous neighborhood.

From: Robert Thomas

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:48:42 GMT0BST

Davide wrote and caused the lights in my head to start flashing (either that or it's this hangover):

Q: do the MiGo have access to Elder Thing technology?
Complete, no holds barred access to ET technology?

Now what if the Funguys do not have _complete_ control over the process?
You have to admit those funny-looking, five-fold simmetrical critters were
pretty advanced, back then long time ago. And from the data in "At The
Mountains of Madness", it seems the Elder Things were closer to us, as far
as psychological makeup and general outlook on things, than the Funguys
will ever be.
We shared "something" (curiosity? will to live? soul?)
So what if the Mi-Go are so active and enquiring where humans are concerned
because they have access to the end results of the ET technology, as a form
of scavenger technology, but not possess the base know-how to duplicate it.
Maybe they hope to find something within us…
Project Genome: does DNA carry an attached help-file?

May be this is the explanation for their interest in understanding in the mental processes of humans. Given the Mi-Go metal process as outlined in DG they think in staright lines; A-B-C-D-E, and if they don't know C they can't get to E whereas us monkey boys can skip straight on to E via our metal setup.

Right then my point if you accept that the Elder things had a similar metal process to humans and you accept the hypothesis that any truely "open" system is capable of these leaps in logic. Perhaps the Mi-Go are so desperate to understand human metal process in order for them to be incorporated into the Mi-Go mind to allow them to begin to understand how the elder Thing tech they have acquired functions, to make the logically inferred leaps and allow the Mi-Go to become an open system which is what they have lost as a result of the way they have decided to evolve themselves as a species.

To create an analogy it's like a caveman given a torch, he can press the buttons and turn it on and off but has no method to understand how it works so when the light he depends on breaks he can't fix it.

Personally I can't see the elder Things including help files with DNA any way and if they did how much help would they be? Anyone ever tried to use the windows help files, better to just mess around in my opinion at least you learn something :-)

How about a situation where the Mi-Go are dependant on one specific Elder Thing device which is starting to go wrong? Are they doing what they are doing to fix the equivalent of a torch?

Anyway great thread so far, one for the cave I feel.

(And it's here indeed! The Editor)

Date: 12 Apr 99 15:17:34 +0100
From: Peter Devlin

Firstly, Davide wrote:

Having done a fair bit of reading on this topic I think there is merit in arguing that Deep Ones require SOMETHING from human DNA that is missing from their own DNA.

Point 1: Does immortality equate to infertility? If not, why aren't there millions of Deep Ones? Theorise that when two immortal Deep Ones mate there is no living result, validating the need for a human partner to guarantee offspring. Why? A regressive gene from the Deep One DNA which causes mutation and death in pureblood offspring. This gene doesn't appear or remains inactive in hybrid offspring, or only appears in a small percentage of offspring causing hideous although not necessarily fatal mutations (those horrible twisted forms in Innsmouth). Post-change the gene will be passed on again unless…

Point 2: What about extraterrestrial Deep One origins? I recall, perhaps erroneously, a passage in HPL that describes the Deep Ones having come down from the stars with the spawn of Cthulhu. Can anyone say certain that this the case? If they are alien then how come they only interbreed with humans (and dolphins if I again remember correctly) instead of anything suitable. Let us presume that they are alien, they have a parasitic DNA structure that can 'infect' different hosts, perhaps someone else can rationalise that part. How did they breed previous to coming to Earth? Perhaps Deep One DNA was contaminated in some way by earthly radiation / exposure to the GOO / virus of the Elder Gods. The latter is intriguing. Theorise that when the GOO were imprisoned the Elder Gods cursed many of their servitors with infertility, hence the importance of Shubby and interbreeding to many Mythos creatures.

Point 3: What about terrestrial Deep One origins? They have to be related to the animals / human / shoggoth family in that case. If they are from the same stock as us this perhaps explains the interbreeding features. The same interbreeding would also apply to ghouls (and sand dwellers?) who share origins with humans. In this case a single Deep One (or other) ancestor could leave a serious genetic timebomb in all offspring, and there may be hundreds of thousands of humans with tainted DNA. All it may take to start transformation would be exposure to the magical emanations and radiations of Mythos artefacts, the aura of Mythos beings etc. Any of this sound familiar? Basically the Mythos races such as Deep Ones could then use humanity as genetic breeding stock and have us ethnically and genetically cleansed at the same time!

Point 4: What did the ETs bring to the mix? If you go with point 3 above then the ETs have unwittingly given the GOO a massive source of worshippers. If you go with point 2 then they have unwittingly given the alien Deep Ones a shot for survival. I guess it depends on the campaign.

Fact - humans and shoggoths are ET byproducts from the same malleable source. Shoggoths are capable of altering their structure at will but can they grow reproductive organs? Lack of population explosion says not, Ramsay Campbell's story 'The Faces at Pine Dunes' says possibly (and presupposes that shoggoths can masquerade successfully as humans - wasn't there another story from 'Cthulhu 2000' that featured human-seeming shoggoths?). Perhaps the classic method of reproduction by fission could be used to explain infrequent shoggoth reproduction. A Deep One / shoggoth hybrid would indeed be a monster, useless for preserving the continuity of the Deep One race. Wouldn't shoggoths make excellent allies for Deep Ones, who would learn a lot about ET genetic technology by studying those shoggoths, perhaps discovering that those recently-upright hairy apes would make excellent cuckoo-nests for hybrid offspring?

Point 5: What about Deep One technology? No fire, no wheel, no lever, no arch. Suggestions? Coral-based (amoeba-based) living computers acting as information stores (Deep One environmental activists?). Telepathic and sonar communication. Shoggoth-offshoots as labourers for construction of cities. Undersea mines for metals and chemicals. Religious art developed to a peak. Science based around fluids and organics.

On a more prosaic note, it is possible to rationalise Mythos creatures a little too much. Enemies are alien because their motives are not understood rather than because their faces are unfamiliar. Would PCs even recognise Deep One technology if they saw it? Probably not.

Enough for now. I'll be keen to see the next digest.

From: "Philip Sands"
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:23:58 GMT

Anyone else think that Shoggoths are possibly responsible for the legends of the Giant Skuttle in the Bahamas?

For those not in the know, the Skuttle is supposed to be a massive amorphous creature that enhabits the caves below the islands and is lethal to anyone who goes in there. If so what is going on in "those fertile caves of mystery"?

And finally, what of those massive blobs of goo that get washed up on the shores of Tasmania, what is that all about eh?

The mind boggles.

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:07:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew D. Gable"

For those not in the know, the Skuttle is supposed to be a massive
amorphous creature that enhabits the caves below the islands and is
lethal to anyone who goes in there. If so what is going on in "those
fertile caves of mystery"?

It's thought among cryptozoologists that the "skuttle" or "lucsa" (also called He of the Hairy Hands) is a large octopus, and therefore maybe responsible for a certain event in St. Augustine, Florida in 1896…although a Shoggoth's a cooler idea.

And finally, what of those massive blobs of goo that get washed up on
the shores of Tasmania, what is that all about eh?

Whale blubber, that's what the skeptics say. But I don't believe it, nosirree…

From: "Philip Sands"
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:05:16 GMT

It's thought among cryptozoologists that the "skuttle" or "lucsa"
…although a Shoggoth's a cooler idea.

WEll yes I know the Lusca is a large octopus type thing. But I like the idea of the shoggoth so much I decided to ignore that bit…

From: "Andrew D. Gable"
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:06:16 -0400

A bunch of people have commented on Shoggoths as the force behind stories of the Bahamian skuttle and Tasmanian "globsters." Here's some more of my $0.02.

In the wonderfully strange world of cryptozoology, there's all manner of critters that could be Shoggoths or extremely obese Deep Ones, especially in northern Europe.

- the Scottish beithir, at least one 1850s sighting. It described a quite hideous flabby critter. BLATANT PLUG: this sighting's recounted on my site, check out the article on beithir.

- a bunch of Norwegian sea monsters. The Kraken, maybe, and some other critter (can't recall the name off-hand, I'll check) that was basically a blob of fat that sometimes consumed itself.

Do these "northern Shoggoths" have some sort of relationship with the similarly-formless gods of Hyperborea—Tsathoggua, Abhoth, Ubbo-Sathla himself, and all the rest?

Interesting sidenote: Thule was placed on old maps in the area of Scandinavia, probably Thule was actually Greenland or Iceland. Now: I once heard that the Icelanders' genes are pretty much the same now as they were Way Back When. Maybe Iceland is the last vestiges of Hyperborea (outside of a few Greenland Eskimos, that is)?

Maybe Bjork is a direct descendant of Satampra Zeiros. =)

From: Mark McFadden

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:17:35 EDT

Just a quick thought.

Bioelectrical signals are nowhere near as fast as electronic circuitry.

Which used to be cited as a reason for some dinosaurs having a second "brain." Not my field, I'm probably way out of date.

But the observation is still valid. Bioelectrical pulses do not travel through a nerve as fast as an electrical circuit with the same function. A huge shoggoth would have a hell of a time trying to stay current with what's going on throughout it's mass. It might have to decentralize processing to get things done. The various processing nodes would grow in complexity (and autonomy) depending on how active they are required to be. A single shoggoth could turn into a de facto hive mind. A DO city mind could be a satellite node of a larger shoggoth deeper down. Maybe shoggoths went deep to take advantage of cold and pressure to change their electrical properties. Or maybe to have a central processing area to collate reports from the field.

Can a shoggoth have it's own civil war?

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:34:02 +0200
From: Davide Mana

Cheers.

Mark "The Brain" McFadden once again baited me when he wrote

Bioelectrical signals are nowhere near as fast as electronic circuitry.

OK, here we go…

The idea dates back to the early days of dinosaur hunting, thanks to some observations made by good old professor Marsh on stegosaurus remains, back in 1878.

What Marsh actually observed was an enlargement of the spinal cord that's not unusual in big animals (elephants have something like that, IIRC, if not as large as the Stego's thing).

From there on, the two-brainer theory took off. Sorry to play the spoilsport, but the enlargement has nothing to do with the speed of nervous impulses: simply animals with large hind-quarters have a lot of nervous fibres that need to connect with the spinal cord, and therefore much more connecting surface is needed to accomodate them all. The high number of interwined neurons make the ganglium bulge. No data processing down there.

Great book, lots of interesting stuff and a great description of what palaeontology should really be about. Crichton ripped off entire paragraphs]

But the observation is still valid. Bioelectrical pulses do not travel

More likely, it would be like a local area network (please, programmers don't flame me, I'm just a natural scientist), with different processors dedicated to different tasks.

Could be a good way to optimize the primitive nervous system the shoggots must have.

As for the speed of neural transmission and all the rest, I guess that a traditional nervous system is pretty useless to a protoplasmatic blob of goo - stir the stuff once and the nervous system goes bananas. So what if the nervous ganglia floating in the shoggoth's body are linked through microwaves or other remorte forms of transmission, and only in those cases in which a stable nervous network is really needed does the critter extrude one?

The signal would not be as clear and focused as a direct nervous linkage, but it could work.

It would still be a matter of moving electrical charges, but it would reduce greatly the extension of the "wires", making the plastic body of the shoggoth totally malleablle.

And the rearranging of ganglia at different distances and in different places inside the shoggoth's body could help redefining the brain functions to adapt to the task.

Modular brain, anybody?

From: Mark Mc Fadden
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:36:21 EDT

« And the rearranging of ganglia at different distances and in different places inside the shoggoth's body could help redefining the brain functions to adapt to the task.
Modular brain, anybody? »

Got one right here. Left and right hemispheres have specialized functions and only communicate through the corpus callosum. Both hemispheres are flexible enough to retrain themselves to take over the others functions if necessary.

The literature is full of examples of people with a severed corpus callosum who seem functionally unbothered by the damage. The only indications are things like an inability to verbally express what only the left eye (right hemisphere) sees.

The fun in that is the stuff of another thread. But the one detail I loved is the way the verbal left hemisphere (assuming right-handed subject) will spontaneously generate explanations for what it can't see. They showed graphic pictures of spectacularly nude men to a woman's left eye. She blushed (the right hemisphere knew what was going on), so they asked her what she saw. The verbal left hemisphere, out of the loop, replies, "Oh, it's just a silly picture." Note the primate reflex to produce an answer in spite of a lack of information. But anyone who's worked in a big organization knows about that, if only subconsciously.

So am I disappointed that dinos didn't have brains in their butts? Not really. There's cooler stuff close at hand.
THIS IS MATERIAL FROM THE ICE CAVE. IT HAS NOT YET BEEN FORMATTED.

From: Ward Phil

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:40:43 +0100

There was an article recently in the Sunday times, on cancer in Iceland, because of the static gene-pool round there they managed to trace the introduction of the cancer gene to a particular person back in the islands history!

Kind of worrying that there is so little variation that they could actually do that! Lot's of scope for inbred cultists by the sound of it.

From: "Philip Sands"
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:29:12 GMT

At the risk of iritating a lot of my irish Friends and possibly members of the list I would say that certain areas in County Kerry which are erm extremely like ares such as Dunnwich, and possibly Goatswood. And I'm sure that I saw one or two people with the Innsmouth Look when I last visited Cork.

Coincidence? I think not!

And how exactly did St Patrick chase the snakes out of Island?? Minature trained shoggoths perhaps? I am sure you could train them to seek out and destroy the nest and lairs of snakes (if snakes have such a thing)… If I saw a shoggoth coming for me I'd certainly get out of the way DAMN fast.

From: Fintan Palmer
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:15:56 +0100

A good friend and workmate is off sick at the moment with a strange illness. He's from Valentia Island off the south Kerry coast.

Personally I don't think it's an "illness"….

Even better is Funghi the dolphin down in Dingle. Like most wild Dolphins that hang around human settlements, he prefers to swim with women. <shudder> That one has mythos written all over it.

Seriously though, that part of the world is ideal country for some bizarre goings on as my gang have found out and as someone from Dublin I don't take any offense. They're all weird down there :)

From: "Andrew D. Gable"
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:38:26 -0400

Phil Sands wrote:

Cork? Nooooo! My ancestors are from Cork…and I guess you could say I have the Innsmouth Look, a bit… Excuse me, but I must go dunk myself in the ocean and join my friends in Y'ha-nthlei.

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:03:13 -0700
From: Mark Williamson

But the observation is still valid. Bioelectrical pulses do not travel
through a nerve as fast as an electrical circuit with the same function. A
huge shoggoth would have a hell of a time trying to stay current with what's
going on throughout it's mass. It might have to decentralize processing to
get things done. The various processing nodes would grow in complexity (and
autonomy) depending on how active they are required to be. A single shoggoth
could turn into a de facto hive mind.

I always imagined and played (Shoggoths) as having the same make up as the creature from John Carpenter's The Thing. Ie. every cell is an individual creature which is able to take on the characteristics of what every organ or body part or whatever that the Shoggoth is gowing. That makes Shoggoths mindless masses of cells which exist to feed and survive rather than thinking entities. The size and shape of the Shoggoth is complety adpated to enviornment it lives in and it only reacts to changes in the enviornment.

From: "Shoggoth"
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:46:58 +0200

Hey boy , you are not the only that questioned what the Icelanders' genes must contain. In fact, the Decode Genetics enterprise has being granted by the iceland parlament to make a detailed genetic map of all the Iceland population.

I use this as a Karo. brach to rebuild a Shoggoth-Killer , developed during the Elder Thing's wars. Small , smart , and nearly invincible , this creature evolved at his own once far from his creators , and was interbreeded with the Hyperboreans / Northern Humans….

Unless the Union wins, in which case it enforces punitive laws and exports carpetbaggers. Not good for a growing Shoggoth, but a great documentary series.

From: "Philip Sands"
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:07:43 GMT

I for one would love to see that stats for that wee beastie.

From: "Shoggoth"
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 02:30:01 +0200

The "Thing" is a Shoggoth-Matter infected with DNA of the Star-Spawn of Cthulhu.

It has the polimorphic capability of a Shoggoth , but the capacity to "compress" its matter to the point of Stainless Steel (sure you remind the T-1000 series in "Terminator 2) , and Human-class inteligence and size.

In the story i'm currently writting , some of it's human breed descendants is aboard the "Hesperides" , making a "routine" investigation on Antartic waters. The K. boys order to his contact in the ship , to inoculate some genetic markers to ascertain its purity , as they need some examples of the descendents to rebuild the Shoggoth-killer thing. Unfortunedly , a underwater volcanic eruption in Deception Island makes that it's formely recessive genes become dominant….and the things goes hot….

More in the full version … if i can manage to end it before the "bad guys" (tm) can trace my connection to the net

THIS IS MATERIAL FROM THE ICE CAVE. IT HAS NOT YET BEEN FORMATTED.

From: "Andy Robertson"

Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:56:25 +0100

I should have guessed that the problem of *zombies* would come overshadow the idea of were-beings … it's a more fundamental and more interesting one.

All I want to do now is to reemphasise that I was not talking about the "science" of were-beings & zombies. (Though that is interesting.)

Rather, I was talking about the way both were-beings and zombies come from a coherent, pre-technological, "Magical" worldview.

And I was talking about the fact that this world-view *is not the Lovecraftian worldview*.

And no, the present-day "Scientific" worldview is not Lovecraftian either.

- *** -

The Lovecraftian worldview doesn't lie "between" the Scientific and the Magical.

It is not a synthesis of the two.

Rather, it is Other - it denies the capacity of *either* the scientific *or* the magical worldviews to fully encompass the Universe

The Lovecraftian worldview is the third (and when that fails, fourth, fifth …. ) way of understanding.

((And most of the "scientific" stuff I have posted now & in the past is not an attempt to reduce Lovecraft to a subset of "Science". Rather, it is a playful attempt to stretch Science in the direction of the Lovecraftian universe until it breaks. And maybe lets you see a bit more.

That's my kick.))

- *** -

Zombies, reanimated corpses.

I'd say the only possible problem with dead bodies that get up, is if their use drags in a set of *false and comfortable explanations*.

There are magical "explanations" and there are scientific "explanations".

These explanations can work or fail aesthetically.

The task is to forge them into a Lovecraftian "explanation".

How do you do that?

- *** -

Now , what is the *comfortable* explanation for a zombie?

Isn't it, actually, the supernatural one?

The "scientific" reanimated corpses of Delta Green do work - I think - *because they shun the comfortable explanation*

Paradoxically the "scientific" explanation is more unsettling than a magical one would be. Because it is wierder, more unusual, and introduces more cognitive dissonance.

- *** -

One method, therefore, is repeated denial.

For example, to start with, set up the zombies as "magical". The bad guy pretends to do it by magic to scare the peasants.

Then show they are "scientific". It's captured, dissected. There are (oh,offhand…) microscopic mitochriondra-like intracellular symbiotic organelles reanimating the cells by pumping ATP out even without blood circulation …..

Then go a step furthur. Yes, the symbiotes are powering the cells in the absence of oxygen and glucose. BUT where are the symbiotes getting the energy to do it? They are violating the laws of thermodynamics - so it seems!

Then - if you are running a near-Endtimes scenario - explain that these organelles are siphoning energy from another Domain …..

Then . ..

- *** -

And so on.

It doesn't matter too much if the intermediate steps are "magical" or "scientific" - though I think "scientific" is the Delta Green thing.

It will work, as a Lovecraftian idea, IF THE *FINAL* ITERATION OF THE EXPLANATION IS OUTSIDE OUR RADIUS OF UNDERSTANDING.

And that's the crux of the matter. I think.

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:37:20 -0400
From: Ian McMurtrey

I don't think so. Despite the xenonanotechnology &c the brutal fact is
that there is *no* way a conventional animal body can be remodeled, right
down to it's (dead, structural) bone, sinew, keratin, and scales (nearly
half its mass), in a few seconds.

Well… conceivably if the transforming agent had permeated the body prior to the transformation, it could be possible. (Although at that point, the agent would probably represent a significant portion of the organism's mass.) Specialized enzymes or acids would chew up old structural material and while other processes synthesize new structural material. The problem is not that these reactions are impossible or slow: they aren't either.

It's that the energy required for widespread structure demolishing/ rebuilding is enormous. Where do you get the energy to drive these reactions?

It's a fudge, and it shows. For example:

- if they can do this, why waste energy hiding? Why not take over the
world like the thing in "Who Goes There"?
- why limit themselves to one or two body forms? Why not a million
different shapes?

- why limit themselves to organic matter? Why not take over and
transform all the matter on Earth?

It's true that when you're designing a creature like that for a game, those things should be taken into account. Obviously the sort of technology that I was describing can have some engineering limitations: just like there are things your own cells can't do, there might be some things that these technologies can't do. But, yes, as a doomsday weapon, there's no reason why nanites couldn't reorganize all matter on Earth into black glass at the rate of diffusion. (I wasn't really referring to nanites, though, except for some dedicated nanites playing some role in the assembly.)

Limitations I would impose on the "protein parents," at least for scenario feasibility:

(2) In the case of single-form transformations (I was really thinking of irreversible ones, because of the vast energy expenditure required for transformation), assume the system is dedicated to resolving "transformational errors." Something like the Milk of Shub Niggurath or John Carpenter's Thing wouldn't necessarily have error correction: it's advantage is protein compatibility and mutagenesis, not whether or not the structures progress towards a specific target. But a single-form transformation may be spending all its available resources ensuring that the transformation doesn't go "wrong," either while transforming to the target or back to the host. So, if the Thing wasn't directing energy resources towards correcting errors, it could "miss" a target structure.

That wouldn't necessarily matter to the Thing, but to a were-creature, missing enough target structures could prove fatal to the organism, and, if not fatal, would definitely be a complication. Were-creatures are a lot more fragile than John Carpenter's Thing, Shub Niggurath, or say, Abhoth. Also, if you don't care about the longevity or robustness of the system, like in the case of Abhoth's spawn, you could spew out as many as you wanted with no error correction at all. I'd say, although my thoughts on this may be wrong, the fewer the number of changes to the system, the higher the amount of energy you can devote to correction. (Even a were-creature represents an enormous amount of correction when compared to the spontaneous generation of a third eye.)

(3) As to contriving reasons why the transformation agent wouldn't eat the Earth, it could be a question of the starting materials. If your agent is a net of communicating prions or viruses, it won't affect inorganic material until it's in a biochemical host. But if the agent is nanotechnology with features of full-scale atomic reorganization, then, well, there's no reason why the Earth wouldn't get turned into black glass, if that was the program it was running. (That's another thing, too: there might be limitations to the information that the transformation agent uses for the reorganization, either by design or evolution.) The Mi-Go, after all, aren't interested in destroying the Earth, just capitalizing on it until the Great Old Ones rise. In the case of an organism that's evolved from something with more generalized function (say, the Earth = Black Glass function), maybe there are parallels that can be seen in some microbiologists opinions of the genetics of single-celled organisms: their progenitors had more generalized function, but have evolved more specialized functions because of energy constraints.

From: "Andy Robertson"

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:41:49 +0100

> I don't think so. Despite the xenonanotechnology &c the brutal fact is
> that there is *no* way a conventional animal body can be remodeled, right
> down to it's (dead, structural) bone, sinew, keratin, and scales (nearly
> half its mass), in a few seconds.

Well… conceivably if the transforming agent had permeated the body prior
to the transformation, it could be possible. (Although at that point, the
agent would probably represent a significant portion of the organism's mass.)

Much of our body is not composed of living cells, but rather of tough matrices of protein (sometimes stiffened by mineral inclusions, sometimes flexible & elastic) with networks of cells spread through them to prevent infection and carry out repairs .

To make a simple analogy, our bodies are not like a pile of people standing on each other's shoulders. Rather, they are like a building, dead itself, which is continually maintained and reconstructed by its inhabitants.

It is this and this alone that allows us to stand meters off the ground, move quickly, throw heavy weights ….. and generally do stuff that a puddle of goo cannot do.

- *** -

The problem with fast metamorphosis remains all that dead matter - the bone, skin, connective tssue, teeth, and so on. You can't remodel it quickly without tearing it to bits, and that will kill you.

To push the analogy a bit furthur, you can't have a building built in the form of a skyscraper which is "rebuilt from the inside" into the shape of a bridge across a river in a few seconds, because gravity will pull it to pieces.

Applying "extra energy" is as futile, beyond a certain limit, as importing extra workers to reassemble the building faster - the medium you are working in will be destroyed by the forces you are using.

- *** -

Still, perhaps we are pushing this point too hard. After all, the truest single statement is the one someone made about "if it works, use it".

- *** --

An interesting parallel question is, how do Shoggoths do it? How do they remain protean & flexible, yet very strong?

Obviously Shoggoths are *designed* to build and break down flexible, rigid, and semi-rigid structures within their bodies very quickly: but how?

Do they perhaps have multiple "filaments" - tiny elements, perhaps a millimeter in size, that can move from place to place within their mass and can join to each other to quickly assemble and disassemble rigid structures like tubes and domes?

To use the earlier analogy: a human being's body structure is like a skyscraper: perhaps a Shoggoth's is more like the Eifel Tower would be, if each element was of variable length and able to join on to the others at will - and if a flexible skin was draped round the whole.

Something like that?

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:06:19 -0400

From: Ian McMurtrey

The problem with fast metamorphosis remains all that dead matter - the bone,
skin, connective tssue, teeth, and so on. You can't remodel it quickly
without tearing it to bits, and that will kill you.

To push the analogy a bit furthur, you can't have a building built in
the form of a skyscraper which is "rebuilt from the inside" into the
shape of a bridge across a river in a few seconds, because gravity will
pull it to pieces.

Start from the top down. Really elegant restructuring would actually use the kinetic energy of the falling material, though.

Applying "extra energy" is as futile, beyond a certain limit, as importing
extra workers to reassemble the building faster - the medium you are
working in will be destroyed by the forces you are using.

This isn't "applying extra energy." This is fueling biochemical reactions _enmasse_. And not at the surface level, which is what you're describing.

I was describing a total, molecular-level permeation of structural altering materials, nestled right next to every alpha-helix, beta barrel, and beta-pleated sheet in your body. There's nothing that prevents proteins from changing the conformation of other proteins: that phenomenon is well established. But these conformational changes are typically driven by energy molecules like ATP, and the net energy cost for this sort of mass structural alteration would be enormous, much more than what can be generated by cells.

<snip>

Do they perhaps have multiple "filaments" - tiny elements, perhaps a
millimeter in size, that can move from place to place within their mass and
can join to each other to quickly assemble and disassemble rigid structures
like tubes and domes?

Well, that's basically how amoeba work, with microtubules, so I can see that here.

From: "William Timmins"
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:33:57 EDT

I don't know if it was clear from my case file from before, but this was sort of what I used for lycanthropy.

Basically, it is a GOO-originated phage that consumes the body, finding genetic material to regenerate tissue, and replacing the body, as quickly as it could without killing the host, with a new type of tissue.

It attacked soft tissue, but eventually the bones and hard parts were dissolved or broken or pushed out and replaced with a hard but shiftable new substance.

The scene in the shower when the player's teeth fell out was memorable.

Particularly since, a day later, it looked like his teeth were in his head, nice and fine.

Neural replacement was the slowest.

But it generally went along the lines mentioned before, transformation by slow consumption and suppression of immune system. Powered by food, and lots of it.

Once done, the actual transformation from man to tiger was accomplished through high weirdness. Matter contained 'off domain' and energy sources of an unconventional origin powered the physical restructuring, a restructuring which was a little less elegant than protean shoggoth or protomatter.

In my game, I had the infection take D6 months, and adjust the physical stats to fit tiger norm (+1 Siz and Dex, I think), with additional shift while in tiger form.

I also required a Sanity roll to successfully, willingly, shift to tiger form, or to aviod shifting to tiger form when startled.

From: "Andy Robertson"

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:57:13 +0100

I don't know if it was clear from my case file from before, but this was
sort of what I used for lycanthropy.

It attacked soft tissue, but eventually the bones and hard parts were
dissolved or broken or pushed out and replaced with a hard but shiftable new
substance.

<snip>

Ah. Interesting.

No, it wasn't quite clear - my fault maybe.

But this makes sense.

So.

- *** -

How do you think Shoggoths work? Can we look at this?

Is there a neotissue link? Is the same tech being used?

How do they power themselves?

If by the oxidation of organic matter, how do they breath, without solid or stable lungs?

More importantly - is there some *global* principle we can grasp & master here, some advance we can make?

- *** -

I have the feeling that there is, but that I am pursuing the wrong ideas, missing the truth for the details.

Very tired.

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:54:47 -0400

From: (Graeme Price)

This is something I considered whilst writing the analysis of neotissue for CD. I would guess that similar principles lie behind shoggoth-matter and neotissue, but that there are some differences.

The Shoggoth matter is somewhat more resilient to my mind and probably capable of much greater physical feats. I was toying with the idea of having it as a form of semi-intelligent polymer capable of being rapidly polymerised (or depolymerised) as needs must. The added resilience would come from cross-linking the chains. A similar mechanism could apply for the neotissue.

Then not by breathing. The neotissue analysis goes into this a little, IIRC. The problem with material which is capable of global transformation (which need not be either slow or minor), as someone else said, is the huge energy requirement for such changes. Now, the Glancy story "A case of mutual interest" describes the antarctic shoggoth generator whereby humans are fed into the generator to produce energy, a side effect (or possibly the _intended_ effect) of which is the creation of an angry, uncontrolled shoggoth. Some thoughts arise from this. Firstly, the electrical energy produced by the generator - we could propose that this is from disintigration of the, er… raw material. Total conversion of mass (that's not a very scientific description, I know, but I'm kind of tired) creates huge amounts of energy… more than could ever be used to run a Secret Volcano Base (for example). So where did the rest of the energy go - obviously into making and powering the shoggoth. So we could assume that the shoggoth is equivalent to a giant battery filled with energy in some rapidly accessible form (chemical or electrical energy would be the most obvious) making it a kind of slimy Energiser Bunny with an attitude problem. This would have a few interesting side effects - the most important would be the lifespan. When the energy is used up… dead shoggoth (could explain why there aren't many left). The rate of energy use is going to be proportional to the amount of work done (obviously) so resting shoggoths may still be lying aound somewhere.

Slime is slime is slime. Likewise protoplasm. It's interesting that so many of the mythos entities have similar properties: Big C. can change size at will - implying a fluidity: Shoggoths and Spawn of T. (couldn't even begin to spell it!!!) are both slimy. Hounds of Tindalos are covered in slime.

Abhoth is slimy…. there are more as well, but those leap to mind.

Andy, the truth is in the details. But I think you might be on the right track.

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:36:41 -0700 (PDT)

From: SuperDave

I've been far too busy to jump into this excellent thread so far—I'm quite looking forward to being able to acces it via the Ice Cave later and read it all nice and collated. But this caught my eye:

The inestimable Graeme Price wrote:

Now, the Glancy story "A case of
mutual interest" describes the antarctic shoggoth generator whereby humans
are fed into the generator to produce energy, a side effect (or possibly
the _intended_ effect) of which is the creation of an angry, uncontrolled
shoggoth.

I didn't interpret it that way. I was assuming that the heart of the "Item of Mutual Interest" generator WAS the shoggoth—I'm not sure how it would have provided power, maybe by some kind of pulsation effect (a bit like a hamster running on a wheel). Over the aeons it had developed some kind of free will, and after getting enough nourishment, felt strong enough to make its move toward freedom, to the detriment of the Nazis.

From: "Andy Robertson"
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:47:15 +0100

>More importantly - is there some *global* principle we can grasp & master
>here, some advance we can make?

Slime is slime is slime. Likewise protoplasm. It's interesting that so many
of the mythos entities have similar properties: Big C. can change size at
will - implying a fluidity: Shoggoths and Spawn of T. (couldn't even begin
to spell it!!!) are both slimy.

OK, one thought.

Inspired, actually, by the fact that it's getting to autumn here … and come autumn, the flocks of Starlings will start flying. They gather in groups of up to a thousand, bitching their heads off, and they fly about like one big collective organism. They don't do anything dangerous, of course, but they look like the Jinn as they fly over you - one dark wing.

-***-

Living things started simple, bacteria-like. These formed colonial organisms that ended up as eukariotic cells - cells with separate nuclei- a thousand times more massive. Then these cells themselves got together in clumps and groups and formed plants & animals.

What if the next step is colonial organisms which consist of many physically separate entities cooperating under one direction, one will?

You could argue that you are already seeing the begining of this in ants & bees - very successful creatures. Then there are colonial entities like sponges, jellyfish &c.

You could also argue that the highly social organisms like human beings are developing into a colonial mode of life - human tribes and nations considered as "Leviathan".

-***-

Could Shoggoths and such protean creatures be colonial entities, each shoggth composed of (let us say) a billion units, each unit the size of a pea - the units joined to each other by adhesion or other methods, but capable of separating and rejoining quickly and easily?

The units need not be identical - some might be specialised for digestion, some for vison, some for food storage, and so on. But allow each unit to be able to survive by itself at a pinch and you have a fearsomly tough collective, unkillable except by chemical poison, or burning.

Sort of like a swarm of ants that have learned to cling on to each other and form a single large hunting form - which can disintegrate into individuals at will.

-***-

There would be advantages to this sort of structure. Large animals are fragile, underpowered, and weak. For basic physical reasons connected to the geometry of fractal networks an animal's maximum power output goes up more slowly than its size. (At the 3/4 power of its mass, actually) So many small organisms linked together can generate more powr than a single large organism of the same mass.

And if you have multiple "body-lets" you gain in other ways - you can discard parasitised units; you can have units which are specialised. Once more, look at the ants.

-***-

If "natural evolution" is heading this way, and if many Mythos entites come from older & more competent ecologies than Earths, perhaps that is the reason why so many of them seem protean?

And the Slime? Lubrication, maybe - the units must move about within the Shoggoth body.