So you believe that God was once ignorant and later gained foreknowledge?

Nope, read it again.

OK, let me explain this slowly.You say:"... its about all things that work together for the elects good, who were already elected prior to this particular act of foreknowledge."

But how can the "elect" be "elected" prior to God's "act of foreknowledge" without these two so-called "acts of God" (i.e. "electing" and "foreknowledge") being in a certain chronological order?

It is written:

2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (Rom 11:2 NKJ)

The implication is this is special knowing, one in which God loved these, therefore it must be a particular act of omniscience, and not the same knowing everyone else.

It does not follow God didn't know before this, rather He now knows them in a special way, among all that is known, what is relevant to these particular people is now distinguished in an unique act of knowing called foreknowing.

In Rom 8:29 same word, and like as here, the foreknowing is distinguished from God's general foreknowing all things before He created...its special foreknowing, one that proves all things work together for their good.

As this foreknowing wasn't to elect them, its irrelevant to election. It was done for other reasons.

In other words, when God thought He would create, all was known to Him, He is omniscient. Its then He elected.

The foreknowing in Rom 8:29 is cited as proof all things work together for their good, its not cited to teach how God elected. They were already elect in verse 9:28. Here God knows them in a special way, and this proves all things work together for their good. For example, those God foreknows this way, He does not cast off:

2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (Rom 11:2 NKJ)

« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 12:33:10 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

So you believe that God was once ignorant and later gained foreknowledge?

Nope, read it again.

OK, let me explain this slowly.You say:"... its about all things that work together for the elects good, who were already elected prior to this particular act of foreknowledge."

But how can the "elect" be "elected" prior to God's "act of foreknowledge" without these two so-called "acts of God" (i.e. "electing" and "foreknowledge") being in a certain chronological order?

It is written:

2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (Rom 11:2 NKJ)

The implication is this is special knowing, one in which God loved these, therefore it must be a particular act of omniscience, and not the same knowing everyone else.

It does not follow God didn't know before this, rather He now knows them in a special way, among all that is known, what is relevant to these particular people is now distinguished in an unique act of knowing called foreknowing.

In Rom 8:29 same word, and like as here, the foreknowing is distinguished from God's general foreknowing all things before He created...its special foreknowing, one that proves all things work together for their good.

As this foreknowing wasn't to elect them, your question only reflects you didn't understand what I said.

What on Earth is "a special foreknowing" as distinct from a "general foreknowing"? And how in Heaven's name can any "foreknowing" be an "act"? I think it's actually you who don't understand what you're saying.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

So you believe that God was once ignorant and later gained foreknowledge?

Nope, read it again.

OK, let me explain this slowly.You say:"... its about all things that work together for the elects good, who were already elected prior to this particular act of foreknowledge."

But how can the "elect" be "elected" prior to God's "act of foreknowledge" without these two so-called "acts of God" (i.e. "electing" and "foreknowledge") being in a certain chronological order?

It is written:

2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (Rom 11:2 NKJ)

The implication is this is special knowing, one in which God loved these, therefore it must be a particular act of omniscience, and not the same knowing everyone else.

It does not follow God didn't know before this, rather He now knows them in a special way, among all that is known, what is relevant to these particular people is now distinguished in an unique act of knowing called foreknowing.

In Rom 8:29 same word, and like as here, the foreknowing is distinguished from God's general foreknowing all things before He created...its special foreknowing, one that proves all things work together for their good.

As this foreknowing wasn't to elect them, your question only reflects you didn't understand what I said.

What on Earth is "a special foreknowing" as distinct from a "general foreknowing"? And how in Heaven's name can any "foreknowing" be an "act"? I think it's actually you who don't understand what you're saying.

A deliberate choice to know is an act. God is not unconscious, He chooses what He does, and those are acts.

Its clear God knew everyone before He created, so in a sense we were all foreknown. But in Rom 8:29 foreknowledge refers to something different than God knowing all things before He created, because its cited as a proof all things work together for the elects good.

How would it prove that, if God foreknew the reprobate also in the precise same way...then its not proof all things work together for good.

So God's foreknowing the elect must be different than His Omniscient foreknowing everyone else, its unique, special.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 12:57:35 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

In other words, God’s omniscience covers all that exists, and all God muses may exist, but not what doesn’t exist because there is nothing to know when it does not exist.

So whenever God contemplates bringing something into existence, then everything about it is instantly known.

So God’s omniscient knowledge of all that exists would increase, the moment He contemplates adding to what exists.

So is what you're trying to say that for God, all creation is an eternal present? If so, that seems very Orthodox to me. That's why our prayers can be effective even outside of time - how often have you prayed for someone or something and then found out that your prayer was answered unbeknownst to you long before you prayed it? It's also why our liturgical life is so meaningful. Let this be a bit of explanation about what I mean: We do not reenact the events of Christ's life - e.g., Transfiguration - but on August 6 we recognize and celebrate its eternal and present significance.

I agree its "an eternal present" to God. I never made the connection to prayer as you have, but its possible. I thank God Christ's sacrifice is always a propitiation for my sin.

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Therefore if, as you claim, "election" precedes "foreknowledge", then God:A) Elected the elect without foreknowledge (which means it was a random choice), andB)God is not omniscient since He was once ignorant of the future and later gained foreknowledge (after He chose the elect).Which, of course, is a load of cobblers.

Your theory of omniscience requires God know all that could exist, every possible combination thereof, even if He never ever would create it, has a fatal flaw which, if you can answer, then I might agree with you:

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

Answer that, and perhaps I will believe God must bore Himself with things that will never exist, but could, if only God would create them.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 12:29:31 AM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

The reason why I am right, and your view of omniscience is wrong, is this paradox:

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.

There is no paradox.

God can think new things His omniscience doesn’t already know, because the moment God ponders a potential, His omniscience simultaneously knows all there is to know about it.

This does not contradict true omniscience because, until God thought of it, it was nothing---not even a potential, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 10:27:59 AM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.

There is no paradox.

God can think new things His omniscience doesn’t already know, because the moment God ponders a potential, His omniscience simultaneously knows all there is to know about it.

This does not contradict true omniscience because, until God thought of it, it was nothing---not even a potential, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

But we're not talking about "possible quantum states", we're talking about what really exists. Being outside of time and creator of time, God knows all things within time from outside of it. Words like "already", "moment", and "until" seem to describe things that happen within time, which God is not bound to.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.

There is no paradox.

God can think new things His omniscience doesn’t already know, because the moment God ponders a potential, His omniscience simultaneously knows all there is to know about it.

This does not contradict true omniscience because, until God thought of it, it was nothing---not even a potential, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

I do hope you've learned, Alfred, that as an Orthodox Christian I would say that my salvation is my becoming the man that God created me to be. (Yes, it includes conversion as you understand it; yes, it includes making my own choice to follow Him as you understand it - all that and more.)

So how will what you're trying to get at here help me in my quest for salvation? And I'm referring to the very specific point on which you are attempting to instruct us here - about what God knows or doesn't know, or even when it become knowable by God or anyone else.

Perhaps you could begin by describing how this doctrine you are proclaiming has helped you become a better Christian and a better person.

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.

There is no paradox.

God can think new things His omniscience doesn’t already know, because the moment God ponders a potential, His omniscience simultaneously knows all there is to know about it.

This does not contradict true omniscience because, until God thought of it, it was nothing---not even a potential, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

But we're not talking about "possible quantum states", we're talking about what really exists. Being outside of time and creator of time, God knows all things within time from outside of it. Words like "already", "moment", and "until" seem to describe things that happen within time, which God is not bound to.

ozgeorge in Repy #43, "b" said differently, and its a straw man, but it represents his thinking and I've been arguing against his definition ever since:

B)God is not omniscient since He was once ignorant of the future and later gained foreknowledge (after He chose the elect).Which, of course, is a load of cobblers.

"later gained foreknowedge" must be a typo, likely he means later gained knowledge. AND God is omnipresent, the moment He mused about creating, He knew all about it. Then, He chose the elect. But scripture doesn't give us the reasons God chose, save to say its not because of who we are (Rom 9:11), or what we do (Eph 2:8), but because of the good purpose of His will (Eph 1:4f).

But ozgeorge's essential premise is to reject Omniscient God wouldn't know everything, including every quantum state of everything that could possibly exist. I say that is a load of cobblers.

You both have a contradiciton, while you rightly argue God is not bound by time, creation is. Creation has a beginning when things began existing, it has a potential beginning the moment God mused to create it.

It was nothing prior to that, and there are no entities in "the nothing" to know.

THAT is what I have been arguing, and you aren't addressing that. God chose us "before the founding of the world," that is, before He created.

What was before that time, before God mused about creating...nothing and in "the nothing" there are no entities to chose.

So God couldn't have chosen us, before He first mused He might create---then we potentially existed, and it was then God chose.

This has nothing to do with time, it may be linear, but its still must be correct.

Hence the paradox for those who claim this contradicts omniscience. No it does not, as long as you don't demand God know every quantum state of everything that could exist. If you demand that, then you have the paradox which proves your view isn't accurate:

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 12:10:02 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

The parable of the wedding feast is an excellent illustration of how election is made.

This contradicts that idea:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

This person dies for his sin, but his spirit is saved in the day of the Lord Jesus:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

This book of life has the names of God's chosen was written from the foundation of the world:

...whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world... (Rev 17:8 NKJ)

All who rise up from hades, in the day of the LORD Jesus, whose names are in the book of life, are NOT cast into the lake of fire.

So their oil lamps were not burning when Christ returned, and they ended up in hades, waiting for the 1000 reign of Christ to end, and the resurrection of all who ever lived, begin.

There are many of God's Elect, who aren't ready when Christ returns, and were not ready when they died...these go to hell upon death, and in torments, they can reflect upon their sin and repent:

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:6 NKJ)

For example, the Pharisee who died was a child of Abraham, an Israelite, one of those Paul says won't be cast off, even though they must go through hell first:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom 11:25-33 NKJ)

Although elect of God, he died a sinner, and God will by no means allow a sinner not pay for His sin...without the ransom propitiation of Christ, wickedness will be avenged:

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

(Luk 16:24-26 KJV)

This Pharisee learned too late he wasn’t saved. That he was a child of God is clear from Abraham’s calling him that. Also, children of God would not feel such sympathy for a child of the devil, being they rejected God willfully, and did evil by choice.

More proof this “rich man” was a repentant sinner in hell is evident by his concern for others, that they also not end up in hell with him (Lu 16:27ff). Only a child of God, when his cry for help was turned down, would think of others…a child of the devil would have begun cursing.

But those in hell, even if Christ were to return tomorrow, must wait till AFTER His thousand year reign on earth, for the General Resurrection (Rev 20:7).

So its much better to be saved by grace through faith now in this life, than after paying for your earthly sins in hell, for centuries.

This is why it is written:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:9-11 NKJ)

There is a remnant of Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ now, it does not follow none of them won't repent in hell, and be raised up into life. It will be impossible to count all the people the Lamb of God saved:

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?" 35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?" 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

The parable of the wedding feast is an excellent illustration of how election is made.

This contradicts that idea:

Matt 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

Quote

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

This person dies for his sin, but his spirit is saved in the day of the Lord Jesus:

Paul was not giving the church in Corinth an order to physically kill someone. He even writes back in 2 Cor that they should receive him back into fellowship.

Quote

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

This book of life has the names of God's chosen was written from the foundation of the world:

God, being outside of time, knows who will be saved from the foundation of the world.

Quote

...whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world... (Rev 17:8 NKJ)

All who rise up from hades, in the day of the LORD Jesus, whose names are in the book of life, are NOT cast into the lake of fire.

So their oil lamps were not burning when Christ returned, and they ended up in hades, waiting for the 1000 reign of Christ to end, and the resurrection of all who ever lived, begin.

There are many of God's Elect, who aren't ready when Christ returns, and were not ready when they died...these go to hell upon death, and in torments, they can reflect upon their sin and repent:

So you believe in predestination and universal salvation at the resurrection (john 5:29), which according to 1 Thess 4:16, will happen at the second coming.

Quote

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:6 NKJ)

They will give an accoun to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Quote

For example, the Pharisee who died was a child of Abraham, an Israelite, one of those Paul says won't be cast off, even though they must go through hell first:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom 11:25-33 NKJ)[/quote]

What about those Jews that Christ said were of their father the devil?

Quote

Although elect of God, he died a sinner, and God will by no means allow a sinner not pay for His sin...without the ransom propitiation of Christ, wickedness will be avenged:

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

(Luk 16:24-26 KJV)

This Pharisee learned too late he wasn’t saved. That he was a child of God is clear from Abraham’s calling him that. Also, children of God would not feel such sympathy for a child of the devil, being they rejected God willfully, and did evil by choice.

More proof this “rich man” was a repentant sinner in hell is evident by his concern for others, that they also not end up in hell with him (Lu 16:27ff). Only a child of God, when his cry for help was turned down, would think of others…a child of the devil would have begun cursing.

But those in hell, even if Christ were to return tomorrow, must wait till AFTER His thousand year reign on earth, for the General Resurrection (Rev 20:7).

So its much better to be saved by grace through faith now in this life, than after paying for your earthly sins in hell, for centuries.

This is why it is written:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:9-11 NKJ)

There is a remnant of Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ now, it does not follow none of them won't repent in hell, and be raised up into life. It will be impossible to count all the people the Lamb of God saved:

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?" 35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?" 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

The parable of the wedding feast is an excellent illustration of how election is made.

This contradicts that idea:

Matt 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

This person dies for his sin, but his spirit is saved in the day of the Lord Jesus:

Paul was not giving the church in Corinth an order to physically kill someone. He even writes back in 2 Cor that they should receive him back into fellowship.

Because my reply is so long, I will answer your post in parts.

The parable telescopes Christ’s 2 advents, and the start of His millennial kingdom, its irrelevant to election of the Elect before the founding of the world:

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, (Eph 1:4 NKJ)

Which happened before we existed and did good or bad:

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom 9:11 NKJ)

-----

Why are you misstating Paul’s words? Paul said hand him over to Satan and he’d destroy his flesh:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

Its irrelevant whether the sinner repented before this happened, Paul says Satan would kill him, and that his spirit MAY be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul doesn’t know if this man is one of God’s Elect, albeit sinning horribly. If Elect, then Satan would kill him, and in hell he would repent, but would have to wait for the Day of the Lord Jesus, to be saved, with all the others coming out of hell:

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

Only the non elect were cast into the lake of fire, the elect had repented of their sin, “lived according to God in the spirit”, as they paid for their sins in hell:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

These rejected Peter’s preaching, they were “dead.” But it was for this cause Peter preached to them:

They will pay for their sins, their insolence, but in hell, when its clear to them they screwed up, Peter’s preaching is recalled, and they live according to God in the spirit, and are saved in the “day of the Lord Jesus” when only the non elect are cast into the lake of fire.

Catholics (and I believe some Orthodox) have a similar idea called purgatory, however the apostolic view is different, its as I have given you.

All who believe in Christ now, in truth, are truly blessed, they are saved to the uttermost, they go immediately into paradise when they die---angels carry them up to third heaven, also known as Abraham’s bosom, to await the resurrection.

Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:25 NKJ)

All those God elected to saved, but who fail in this life to believe in Jesus, go to Hades to await the resurrection, in torments appropriate to their sin, each receiving the wrath they stored up for themselves while alive, albeit mitigated somewhat by God’s mercy.

Its not purgatory as some believe, its HADES, and none who believe in Jesus now, go there, we “depart” and are with Christ, no purgatory for believers.:

For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. (Phi 1:23 NKJ)

The wicked and vile go to a lower part of hell, hence Mat 22:13 “cast into the farthest darkness”, equivalent to the lowest hell where they wait to be raised up, and cast into the lake of fire.

Because this is a long reply, I will divide this into separate posts.

The big complaint about election is some wrongly believe one can live like the devil if they are “of the elect,” and when they die they step into paradise…

No, this is what happens to them:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

Then in torments they live according to God in the spirit, that their spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus…

Taking God’s kindness for weakness was a terrible mistake.

But they are eventually saved, if elect because it is written only the non elect who are raised up from hell, are cast into the death from which there is no resurrection:

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:14-1 NKJ)

No return of Death, no return of hell, no return of those not written in the Lamb’s book of life.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 09:22:17 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

So you believe in predestination and universal salvation at the resurrection (john 5:29), which according to 1 Thess 4:16, will happen at the second coming.

No, the Devils children follow him into eternal punishment, no universal salvation.

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mat 25:41 NKJ)

If you read what I said carefully, you will note I identified those who would repent in hell, the elect who died without Christ in this life:

12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

Election doesn’t absolve from sin, Christ’s ransom sacrifice does. Anyone who dies without Christ, including the elect, go to hell to pay for their sins.

But the elect repent in hell, live according to God in the spirit, and so their spirits are saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus, so that what is written, be true:

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 NKJ)

God chose these before the founding of the world, He loves every one of them. His heart would be broken forever, if any of them were lost.

Its likely God would mourn the loss of one of His children, whom He personally foreknew, so badly...it would make the very idea of creation, untenable. God chose to create, enduring with much long suffering vessels of wrath, because He wanted His Elect, everyone of them, with Him forever.

Therefore the decree of election, of predestination unto salvation, is necessary, because FALLEN man is a real piece of work:

29 And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah." (Rom 9:29 NKJ)

In order that this fallen world---the Devil’s rebellion, the seductive power of sin, or the “bad luck” of being born in a country without Christ, not cause one of His children be lost, God predestines they will believe, they will be saved.

He loves them and cannot permit the Devil take them.

But by no means will God allow evil to go unpunished. If a man die without Christ’s propitiation, to Hell he will go, to pay for his sin, elect or not. Only believing in the name of the LORD Jesus Christ, can save. Everyone who fails to believe in the name of Jesus, when they die, they go to hell, elect or not.

12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 09:55:30 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:6 NKJ)

They will give an accoun to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Quote

For example, the Pharisee who died was a child of Abraham, an Israelite, one of those Paul says won't be cast off, even though they must go through hell first:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom 11:25-33 NKJ)

Although elect of God, he died a sinner, and God will by no means allow a sinner not pay for His sin...without the ransom propitiation of Christ, wickedness will be avenged:

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

(Luk 16:24-26 KJV)

This Pharisee learned too late he wasn’t saved. That he was a child of God is clear from Abraham’s calling him that. Also, children of God would not feel such sympathy for a child of the devil, being they rejected God willfully, and did evil by choice.

More proof this “rich man” was a repentant sinner in hell is evident by his concern for others, that they also not end up in hell with him (Lu 16:27ff). Only a child of God, when his cry for help was turned down, would think of others…a child of the devil would have begun cursing.

But those in hell, even if Christ were to return tomorrow, must wait till AFTER His thousand year reign on earth, for the General Resurrection (Rev 20:7).

So its much better to be saved by grace through faith now in this life, than after paying for your earthly sins in hell, for centuries.

This is why it is written:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:9-11 NKJ)

There is a remnant of Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ now, it does not follow none of them won't repent in hell, and be raised up into life. It will be impossible to count all the people the Lamb of God saved:

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?" 35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?" 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

For example:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:18-21 NKJ)

This text likens OUR answer of a good conscience, which now saves us, to what these spirits in prison did. They “formerly were disobedient”.

If Christ went to this prison to tell the “formerly disobedient” don’t bother trying, that they were dammed forever, then how is this a like figure to us?

Clearly Christ took the time and trouble to go to this prison, for His usual reasons for going to places:

"For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. (Mat 18:11 NKJ)

« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 11:50:08 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 12:01:20 AM by Alfred Persson »

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states?

Now that we know they exist, we must include them when we claim God is Omnipresent, unless you wish to abandon that doctrine?

So, I mentioned Quantum states.

So what is your big point...I've been waiting for the hammer...let it hit.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 12:19:10 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics. He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.

Quote

If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics. He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.

Quote

If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. (Col 1:17 CJB)

Its all a matrix. That would explain why electrons change their behaviour when observed, in the double slit experiment, in holographic reality all is in all.

I have no degrees, I’m a high school dropout, self taught in scripture, not physics... but I can speculate with the best...

« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 01:49:57 PM by Alfred Persson »

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states?

Now that we know they exist, we must include them when we claim God is Omnipresent, unless you wish to abandon that doctrine?

So, I mentioned Quantum states.

So what is your big point...I've been waiting for the hammer...let it hit.

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states?

Now that we know they exist, we must include them when we claim God is Omnipresent, unless you wish to abandon that doctrine?

So, I mentioned Quantum states.

So what is your big point...I've been waiting for the hammer...let it hit.

I have no point, and neither do you.

I thought so.

But I have a point, you cannot claim omniscience for God, if you exclude quantum reality. It exists.

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states?

Now that we know they exist, we must include them when we claim God is Omnipresent, unless you wish to abandon that doctrine?

So, I mentioned Quantum states.

So what is your big point...I've been waiting for the hammer...let it hit.

I have no point, and neither do you.

I thought so.

But I have a point, you cannot claim omniscience for God, if you exclude quantum reality. It exists.

And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

We can argue about this picayune point all we want, but in the end, what difference does it make?

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states?

Now that we know they exist, we must include them when we claim God is Omnipresent, unless you wish to abandon that doctrine?

So, I mentioned Quantum states.

So what is your big point...I've been waiting for the hammer...let it hit.

I have no point, and neither do you.

I thought so.

But I have a point, you cannot claim omniscience for God, if you exclude quantum reality. It exists.

And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

We can argue about this picayune point all we want, but in the end, what difference does it make?

That's the fundamental difference in our approach, I look to scripture for truth, no where else.

As for angels on a pin, given there were a legion (6000) of fallen angels in the demoniac, lots:

9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. (Mar 5:9 KJV)

ps: This pre-figures the rush of the unsaved into the lake of fire:

12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. 14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done. (Mar 5:12-14 KJV)

After being raised up in contemptible resurrection bodies, all not written in the lambs book of life rush head long into the lake of fire, bound like the demons in these swine, trapped in bodies and driven against their will to hurl themselves in.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15-1 KJV)

"Cast" 906 ballw ballo {bal'-lo} Meaning: 1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls 1a) to scatter, to throw, cast into 1b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result 1c) of fluids 1c1) to pour, pour into of rivers 1c2) to pour out 2) to put into, insert

« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 02:01:51 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

That's the fundamental difference in our approach, I look to scripture for truth, no where else.

But what is truth? Is truth a collection of propositions of what is believed to be true, propositions you can use to beat down your opponents in a debate? Or is truth a person? If the truth you're looking for in Scripture is a person, you will find Him in the Person of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, you're searching the Scriptures for the wrong reason.

That's the fundamental difference in our approach, I look to scripture for truth, no where else.

But what is truth? Is truth a collection of propositions of what is believed to be true, propositions you can use to beat down your opponents in a debate? Or is truth a person? If the truth you're looking for in Scripture is a person, you will find Him in the Person of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, you're searching the Scriptures for the wrong reason.

Yes, Jesus is the truth, being the Word of God incarnate. But truth is also a statement, and given Christ dialogued correcting untruths, its inconsistent with any profession of following Him that we not do the same.

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1Pe 3:15 KJV)

Being Peter commands us to have "reasons for believing" at the ready, its worth studying scripture to know what they are.

The fathers clearly did precisely that. They argued, dialogued, profusely, citing the scriptures that backed them up.

God inspired scripture "in order that" (hoti, vs. 17 "that") the man of God be fully equipped: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti 3:16-17 KJV)

« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 02:22:28 PM by Alfred Persson »

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

The fathers clearly did precisely that. They argued, dialogued, profusely, citing the scriptures that backed them up.

Of course they did, but they didn't create unusual doctrines and quote mine the Scriptures for whatever passages they could rip out of context to back them up, as you do here.

There you go again, claiming and not proving anything.

What passages were ripped out of context?

Prove I did that or take it back...

And the doctrine isn't unusual to 1st century Christianity, revealed in scripture. I can prove that, and have repeatedly.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 03:37:16 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

And the doctrine isn't unusual to 1st century Christianity, revealed in scripture. I can prove that, and have repeatedly.

Not enough to convince us. I notice, for instance, that you never cite any of the Fathers whose methodology you claim to follow.

Not proving your point makes it a pointless.

Citing scripture to prove one speaks correctly according to the scriptures, is not THEIR methodology as though they have a patent on it, its every Bible Christian's methodology, we all do it.

When it comes to controversial issues, regardless which father is cited, its likley another father can be found contradicting that point. But your criticism carries some weight, henceforth I will cite them where pratical. However, I consider the ante-Nicene fathers valuable witness to the beliefs of at some in the early church, everything after that time, not. After Nicea, it changed from primitive Orthodoxy, to something else.

So this precise statement I agree with, as for other things Tertullian said in this context, no:

Quote

"We have been predestined by God, before the world was, (to arise) in the extreme end of the times."

Tertullian Book II, IX.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 08:05:03 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Melodist has an enormous degree of patience and passionless dialog; Peter, a hold your feet to the furnace sorta temper.

Alfred Persson, even if what you were writing were the least bit coherent, the above combo is going to require you to up your game a bit.

Working on making posts at least not ugly to read would help.

I dunno know how Melodist and Peter make sense or can follow your style.

Could you in 200 words or less without weird line spacing or font changes or even Scriptural references state your thesis?

Hmmm...How ugly or beautiful would you say the following is, regarding Dives, that is, the Pharisee or rich man in Hell, but it violates your 200 word rule:

Relevant to predestination, the elect, is what happened to Dives, the rich Pharisee who went to hell, could he be one of God's elect who must go to hell first, before he enters the Kingdom?:

Dives looks up and calls Abraham “Father” (v. 24), that is a relationship only the Elect have, not children of the Devil:39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 "But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 "You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father-- God." (Joh 8:39-41 NKJ)

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 "and do not think to say to yourselves,`We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. (Mat 3:7-9 NKJ)

Abraham would not speak tenderly---calling him “child” (v. 24, τέκνον) if he was a child of the Devil. Then its likely he would have said “you are no child of mine.”

Children of God do not feel sorry for the wicked receiving their just punishment:6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying,`Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 "of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 "you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; (Deu 13:6-8 NKJ)

Yet they wanted to cross over into hell itself, to help this man:[/B]26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Luk 16:26 NKJ)

If we cannot infer this is a child of God from all this, we cannot infer anything from scripture, its all dark and mysterious.[/B]

Hades is not the final judgment, that occurs in the “day of the Lord Jesus” when all are raised up, after the thousand year reign of Christ:[/B]11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:11-12 NKJ)

The Lake of Fire would be redundant if Hades was the final resting place for the wicked, and then what becomes of those in hell when Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire?14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14 NKJ)

Clearly the Lake of Fire is the “place from which there is no return, the second death” and so all cast therein, including Death and Hell, will never return. That is the meaning of this symbol.

Scripture expressly says Elect rise up from hell into life, ONLY those not Elect are cast into the lake of fire::[/i]12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:27 NKJ)

The Talmud proves the Pharisees understood Christ’s parable, literally:"In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it."-Gen. R XLVIII. 8

Christ and His apostles were Jews, and Jesus never said they were totally wrong about hell:52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

Compare:

"Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!" (Act 23:6 NKJ)

Paul could not say this if it weren’t true, his eschatology was generally the same as the Pharisees and they believed some in Hades would rise in the day of the resurrection, into life:

The Pharisees believed some would rise up from hell, in the Day of Judgment, into life, which agrees with Rev 20:15 "The locus classicus on the subject reads: 'The School of Shammai declared, There are three classes with respect to the Day of Judgment: the perfectly righteous, the completely wicked, and the average people. Those in the first class are forthwith inscribed and sealed for eternal life. Those in the second class are forthwith inscribed and sealed for Gehinnom; as it is said, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting contempt" (Dan. xii. 2). The third class will descend to Gehinnom and cry out (from the pains endured there) and then ascend; as it is said, "I will bring the third part through fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name and I will hear them" (Zech. xiii.9). Concerning them Hannah said, "The Lord killeth and maketh alive, He bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up" (1 Sam. ii. 6). The School of Hillel quoted, "He is plenteous in mercy" (Exod. xxxiv. 6); He inclines towards mercy; and concerning them said David, "I love the Lord, because He hath heard my voice and my supplications" (Ps. cxvi. I). The whole of that Psalm was composed by David about them: "I was brought low and He saved me" (ibid. 6). The sinners of Israel with their bodies and the sinners of the Gentiles with their bodies descend to Gehinnom and are judged there for twelve months. After twelve months their bodies are destroyed, and their souls burnt and scattered by a wind under the soles of the feet of the righteous; as it is said, "Ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet" (Mal. iv. 3). But the sectaries, informers, epicureans who denied the Torah* and denied the Resurrection, they who separated themselves from the ways of the community, they who set their dread in the land of the living,** and they who like Jeroboam the son of Nabat and his associates, sinned and caused the multitude to sin (cf. 1 Kings xiv. 16), will descend to Gehinnom and be judged there generations on generations; as it is said, "They shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Is. lxvi. 24). Gehinnom will cease but they will not cease (to suffer); as it is said, "Their form shall be for Sheol to consume that there be no habitation for it" (Ps. xlix. 14) Concerning them said Hannah, "They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces" (1 Sam. ii.10). R. Isaac B. Abin said, Their faces will be black like the bottom of a pot.' (R.H. 16b et seq.)

We gather from this extract that in the first century one of the principal Schools, influenced by a verse in Daniel, assigned the utterly wicked to eternal punishment; but the other School found such a doctrine incompatible with Divine mercy. Sinners must be penalized. They undergo twelve months of pain and then suffer annihilation because they are unworthy of entrance into Gan Eden. They who have been exceptionally wicked stay in Gehinnom for 'generations on generations.' That this expression does not signify eternity is clear from the statement that 'Gehinnom will cease.' they will not, after their sufferings there, undergo extinction, but will continue in existence as conscious entities—how and where is not explained—in a perpetual state of remorse."

-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, pp.377-378.

Clearly there are Elect who rise up from hell, into life, in the Day of the Lord Jesus.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 08:02:00 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Melodist has an enormous degree of patience and passionless dialog; Peter, a hold your feet to the furnace sorta temper.

Alfred Persson, even if what you were writing were the least bit coherent, the above combo is going to require you to up your game a bit.

Working on making posts at least not ugly to read would help.

I dunno know how Melodist and Peter make sense or can follow your style.

Could you in 200 words or less without weird line spacing or font changes or even Scriptural references state your thesis?

Hmmm...How ugly or beautiful would you say the following is, regarding Dives, that is, the Pharisee or rich man in Hell, but it violates your 200 word rule:

Relevant to predestination, the elect, is what happened to Dives, the rich Pharisee who went to hell, could he be one of God's elect who must go to hell first, before he enters the Kingdom?:

Dives looks up and calls Abraham “Father” (v. 24), that is a relationship only the Elect have, not children of the Devil:39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 "But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 "You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father-- God." (Joh 8:39-41 NKJ)

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 "and do not think to say to yourselves,`We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. (Mat 3:7-9 NKJ)

Abraham would not speak tenderly---calling him “child” (v. 24, τέκνον) if he was a child of the Devil. Then its likely he would have said “you are no child of mine.”

Children of God do not feel sorry for the wicked receiving their just punishment:6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying,`Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 "of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 "you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; (Deu 13:6-8 NKJ)

Yet they wanted to cross over into hell itself, to help this man:[/B]26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Luk 16:26 NKJ)

If we cannot infer this is a child of God from all this, we cannot infer anything from scripture, its all dark and mysterious.[/B]

Hades is not the final judgment, that occurs in the “day of the Lord Jesus” when all are raised up, after the thousand year reign of Christ:[/B]11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:11-12 NKJ)

The Lake of Fire would be redundant if Hades was the final resting place for the wicked, and then what becomes of those in hell when Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire?14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14 NKJ)

Clearly the Lake of Fire is the “place from which there is no return, the second death” and so all cast therein, including Death and Hell, will never return. That is the meaning of this symbol.

Scripture expressly says Elect rise up from hell into life, ONLY those not Elect are cast into the lake of fire::[/i]12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:27 NKJ)

The Talmud proves the Pharisees understood Christ’s parable, literally:"In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it."-Gen. R XLVIII. 8

Christ and His apostles were Jews, and Jesus never said they were totally wrong about hell:52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

Compare:

"Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!" (Act 23:6 NKJ)

Paul could not say this if it weren’t true, his eschatology was generally the same as the Pharisees and they believed some in Hades would rise in the day of the resurrection, into life:

The Pharisees believed some would rise up from hell, in the Day of Judgment, into life, which agrees with Rev 20:15 "The locus classicus on the subject reads: 'The School of Shammai declared, There are three classes with respect to the Day of Judgment: the perfectly righteous, the completely wicked, and the average people. Those in the first class are forthwith inscribed and sealed for eternal life. Those in the second class are forthwith inscribed and sealed for Gehinnom; as it is said, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting contempt" (Dan. xii. 2). The third class will descend to Gehinnom and cry out (from the pains endured there) and then ascend; as it is said, "I will bring the third part through fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name and I will hear them" (Zech. xiii.9). Concerning them Hannah said, "The Lord killeth and maketh alive, He bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up" (1 Sam. ii. 6). The School of Hillel quoted, "He is plenteous in mercy" (Exod. xxxiv. 6); He inclines towards mercy; and concerning them said David, "I love the Lord, because He hath heard my voice and my supplications" (Ps. cxvi. I). The whole of that Psalm was composed by David about them: "I was brought low and He saved me" (ibid. 6). The sinners of Israel with their bodies and the sinners of the Gentiles with their bodies descend to Gehinnom and are judged there for twelve months. After twelve months their bodies are destroyed, and their souls burnt and scattered by a wind under the soles of the feet of the righteous; as it is said, "Ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet" (Mal. iv. 3). But the sectaries, informers, epicureans who denied the Torah* and denied the Resurrection, they who separated themselves from the ways of the community, they who set their dread in the land of the living,** and they who like Jeroboam the son of Nabat and his associates, sinned and caused the multitude to sin (cf. 1 Kings xiv. 16), will descend to Gehinnom and be judged there generations on generations; as it is said, "They shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Is. lxvi. 24). Gehinnom will cease but they will not cease (to suffer); as it is said, "Their form shall be for Sheol to consume that there be no habitation for it" (Ps. xlix. 14) Concerning them said Hannah, "They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces" (1 Sam. ii.10). R. Isaac B. Abin said, Their faces will be black like the bottom of a pot.' (R.H. 16b et seq.)

We gather from this extract that in the first century one of the principal Schools, influenced by a verse in Daniel, assigned the utterly wicked to eternal punishment; but the other School found such a doctrine incompatible with Divine mercy. Sinners must be penalized. They undergo twelve months of pain and then suffer annihilation because they are unworthy of entrance into Gan Eden. They who have been exceptionally wicked stay in Gehinnom for 'generations on generations.' That this expression does not signify eternity is clear from the statement that 'Gehinnom will cease.' they will not, after their sufferings there, undergo extinction, but will continue in existence as conscious entities—how and where is not explained—in a perpetual state of remorse."

-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, pp.377-378.

Clearly there are Elect who rise up from hell, into life, in the Day of the Lord Jesus.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

Ooops, forgot to quote a Father:

Quote

And, as I think, the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save; which accordingly He also did by drawing to salvation those who became willing, by the preaching [of the Gospel], to believe on Him, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there; since God's punishments are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance thorn the death of a sinner;76 and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly, because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh.

Clement of Alexandria, Book VI, Chapter V

Quote

Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, "Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves." Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile." This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter L

Quote

Let any one imagine that souls are immediately judged. after death. For all are detained in one and a common place of confinement, until the arrival of the time in which the great Judge shall make an investigation of their deserts. Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment.

Lactantius, Book VII, Chapter XXI

« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 08:40:51 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)