jayphat:Umm, i hate to burst this myth, but they don't. On average, when a Walmart moves in, the number of businesses present beforehand that closes is 4. After 5 years, and if you've ever seen a Walmart built, a ton of crap gets built around it. I'm not going to look for this study tonight, google it yourself if you want to see it.

Ummmm I hate to bust your myth, but Wal-Mart also puts in in many places where it doesn't negatively impact local businesses. This is why you provided the average. Tell that to the people in small towns all around the South that feel the impact of a Wal-Mart far, far more than the larger cities, many of which already have a Wal-Mart but the second and/or third Wal-Mart's are included in these averages.

And if you're talking about the "satellite" stores that surround Wal-Mart's, have you noticed that they are invariably huge chains with their own issues and history of treating their employees like crap?

djkutch:Silly Jesus: LULZ. I hope they are all fired. Plenty more people out there who would love their job.

This. I don't understand why employees shouldn't just be forced to live and work at the job. A little room with a hotplate, if you will. Share a shiater down the hall. I believe the president who should have been explored such policies in China.

Employees should have absolutely no voice. In return, said employees get no pay.

Share a shiatter? What, is a bucket too good for those worthless plebes? Toilets cost money, dammit!

And a hot plate? What is this - The Waldorf Astoria? Next they'll be expecting food that isn't made from old newspapers and ground up apple cores!

Costco's practices are clearly more expensive, but they have an offsetting cost-containment effect: Turnover is unusually low, at 17% overall and just 6% after one year's employment. In contrast, turnover at Wal-Mart is 44% a year'close to the industry average. In skilled and semi-skilled jobs, the fully loaded cost of replacing a worker who leaves (excluding lost productivity) is typically 1.5 to 2.5 times the worker's annual salary. To be conservative, let's assume that the total cost of replacing an hourly employee at Costco or Sam's Club is only 60% of his or her annual salary. If a Costco employee quits, the cost of replacing him or her is therefore $21,216. If a Sam's Club employee leaves, the cost is $12,617. At first glance, it may seem that the low-wage approach at Sam's Club would result in lower turnover costs. But if its turnover rate is the same as Wal-Mart's, Sam's Club loses more than twice as many people as Costco does: 44% versus 17%. By this calculation, the total annual cost to Costco of employee churn is $244 million, whereas the total annual cost to Sam's Club is $612 million. That's $5,274 per Sam's Club employee, versus $3,628 per Costco employee.

While Sam's Club and Costco generated $37 billion and $43 billion, respectively, in U.S. sales last year, Costco did it with 38% fewer employees-admittedly, in part by selling to higher-income shoppers and offering more high-end goods. As a result, Costco generated $21,805 in U.S. operating profit per hourly employee, compared with $11,615 at Sam's Club. Costco's stable, productive workforce more than offsets its higher costs.

jayphat:As a former Walmart manager, i say, Fark Em. You'll never notice on Black Friday. There's so many damn people there that it's never going to be enough. Besides, reports say it's something like 100 people at most across the country. With 1.2 million people working across the country, yeah, let those 100 people walk.

Fade2black:Is there a reason why Wal-Mart should pay a wage to employees that would count as gainfully employed?

It already does. You need a new soapbox.

Here ya go:

DefinitionGainful employment is a general term referring to a job, especially a job that a student takes after graduation. In the most basic sense, gainful employment is any type of employment that leads to profit for the employee. Gainful employment is often assumed to be a source of consistent revenue for the worker, with the classical connotations associated with a steady job.

Great Janitor:Taking a guess, I'm going to say that for those employees who aren't happy working there, there probably are enough other jobs out there to take. They just have to go out and find the job.

Indeed. You are merely taking a guess. Do you know how long my sister had to wait before the opening in Wal-Mart came up?

Mikey1969:Great Janitor: It's common knowledge that waiters make less than $3/hour.

If by "common knowledge" you mean, just waiters, managers and restaurant owners, I guess you're right.

Otherwise, you're full of shiat. I run into plenty of people who have never known that.

You run into plenty of stupid people. I learned this in high school when I had classmates telling me how little they were making as a waitress.

If they want a better paying job, a better working environment no one is forcing them to work at Walmart, they are free to find new jobs.

But I thought the evil Obama had saddled us with eleventy billion percent unemployment after the workers' utopia of George W Bush? I thought people "had" to take absolutely any job they could find? Are you people flipping the script yet again?

Read my posts, find out where I said the name Obama. People aren't working crappy jobs because of Obama or Bush. They work crappy jobs because they chose to accept those crappy jobs.

FuryOfFirestorm:djkutch: Silly Jesus: LULZ. I hope they are all fired. Plenty more people out there who would love their job.

This. I don't understand why employees shouldn't just be forced to live and work at the job. A little room with a hotplate, if you will. Share a shiater down the hall. I believe the president who should have been explored such policies in China.

Employees should have absolutely no voice. In return, said employees get no pay.

Share a shiatter? What, is a bucket too good for those worthless plebes? Toilets cost money, dammit!

And a hot plate? What is this - The Waldorf Astoria? Next they'll be expecting food that isn't made from old newspapers and ground up apple cores!

BravadoGT:You know what kind of employee I want at my business? The kind that tries to hurt me on arguably the busiest day of the year. GTFO--and God help you if you put me down on your next application and they call me.

You don't know how THAT works, do you? Pretty much all that they get to ask you is if the person is considered eligible for rehire. You can't say more, or you're violating the very types of labor laws that WalMart has been ignoring requests to stop violating for YEARS. It's not like this is the first, or even the millionth, time this has come up.

My aunt is pushing 70. In her time, she was way ahead of the curve. When her friends were getting married, she was getting a degree. She worked as a HIgh School English teacher for over 30 years. For most of her life she was a respected, independent professional.

Unfortunately, she's not perfect, went through a terribly messy divorce after being cheated on, and it knocked her down enough that she never quite regained her footing in life. Now, her pension doesn't cover her living expenses, so she works at Wal-mart. Where she gets to be stereotyped as a lazy, stupid loser who doesn't even deserve basic laborer protections for safety and health.

Great Janitor:Read my posts, find out where I said the name Obama. People aren't working crappy jobs because of Obama or Bush. They work crappy jobs because they chose to accept those crappy jobs

were all that was available, due to employer collusion.

FTFY.

People with your philosophy really have no idea what life is like for many people. Do you know how much stress and effort and money it takes to change jobs? To rearrange yourself and your family around a new schedule? Especially when you're married with three kids?

Costco's practices are clearly more expensive, but they have an offsetting cost-containment effect: Turnover is unusually low, at 17% overall and just 6% after one year's employment. In contrast, turnover at Wal-Mart is 44% a year'close to the industry average. In skilled and semi-skilled jobs, the fully loaded cost of replacing a worker who leaves (excluding lost productivity) is typically 1.5 to 2.5 times the worker's annual salary. To be conservative, let's assume that the total cost of replacing an hourly employee at Costco or Sam's Club is only 60% of his or her annual salary. If a Costco employee quits, the cost of replacing him or her is therefore $21,216. If a Sam's Club employee leaves, the cost is $12,617. At first glance, it may seem that the low-wage approach at Sam's Club would result in lower turnover costs. But if its turnover rate is the same as Wal-Mart's, Sam's Club loses more than twice as many people as Costco does: 44% versus 17%. By this calculation, the total annual cost to Costco of employee churn is $244 million, whereas the total annual cost to Sam's Club is $612 million. That's $5,274 per Sam's Club employee, versus $3,628 per Costco employee.

While Sam's Club and Costco generated $37 billion and $43 billi ...

Right when I left Walmart in 2008, there was a study done using local social data about workers from Walmart and the whole foodstamp usage. I can't find the study, I looked for 5 mins and thats all the effort I'm putting in tonight. I hope you're sitting down, but Walmart actually REMOVES people from food stamp rolls. About 4% of employees are on assistance when they start with Walmart. By the 6 month mark, that number drops to 2%. After 18 months, 1%. Again, look for the study. I was shocked when I read it.

Yes there will be a large number of people on foodstamps working for Walmart. They are the largest private employer in the country. You'll probably be shocked, SHOCKED to know that state and federal workers are on foodstamps too. Maybe they need their pay raised as well.

Wal-Mart on Thursday reported that its investigation into violations of a federal antibribery law had extended beyond Mexico to China, India and Brazil, some of the retailer's most important international markets.

ox45tallboy:Great Janitor: Taking a guess, I'm going to say that for those employees who aren't happy working there, there probably are enough other jobs out there to take. They just have to go out and find the job.

Indeed. You are merely taking a guess. Do you know how long my sister had to wait before the opening in Wal-Mart came up?

So, she just waited for an opening at Walmart? Did she not apply for work anywhere else?

I don't know about where you live, but in my area, even after all the illegal aliens taking jobs, there are still plenty of job openings. Some companies can't even hire enough people. Tax season is starting up. I know people starting classes next week to get their IRS certifications to do tax work. I have a friend who started a job today, all he does is pass out flyers. He gets paid ten cents for every flyer he passes out and paid daily. He made $87 in just four hours. I've got another friend, he just works two and a half hours a night door knocking for a roofing company. He's making a thousand dollars a week.

There are jobs out there. No one has to settle for Walmart unless they want to.

ILoveBurritos:I get that this is mainly a workers vs employers thread at this point, but I can't help but think that the real problem is the consumers (and excessive consumerism). No one wants to pay for decently made products anymore because the only thing consumers look at is the price tag. I'm not good at explaining myself, but it feels like we all assume we've given up on even thinking we can rehabilitate the public on shopping effectively. Like consumers are compelled to shop at Walmart, just open one and people will flock there unable to control themselves.On a tangent though, I've read that companies that want to sell with Walmart have to meet certain price guidelines otherwise Walmart won't carry their products and since Walmart is such an important chain to sell through. Companies are basically forced to make cheaper products for these dumbass consumers.What this really all comes down to is that I hadn't had to buy denim jeans for a decade, and now that I'm looking, all I can find anywhere is paper thin garbage that doesn't feel sturdy at all, anywhere. When I compare it to my old ones, the newer ones are obviously inferior. Why would I want to spend $30 on a cheap pair of jeans I'll end up replacing 5 times in the span that a $60 pair would have lasted me once?

WhyteRaven74:How about send WalMart a bill for all the food assistance and other assistance their employees get because they're not paid enough to make it without the assistance?

That is, roughly, part of the the argument Barbara Ehrenreich makes in her book Nickel and Dimed, that by not paying workers a living wage, businesses are essentially offloading the difference between what they pay and what their workers need to survive onto the taxpayers.

moefuggenbrew:Great Janitor: That is no different than me handing someone a hammer and saying "Now, if you bash your hand with this it could break your hand." and then watch as they bash their hand with said hammer and then listen as a bone or two breaks. No sympathy.

I guess that's what it comes down to, some people, including myself, would still have sympathy for our common man, even if he was dumb enough to hit himself with the hammer. Some people would lock them in a warehouse. You sir, are unsympathetic.

Is the warehouse a giant Faraday cage and no cell phone 9-1-1 calls can go out to call the police and let them know the workers are locked in the warehouse?

Testiclaw:TiiiMMMaHHH: The workers are demanding the following from Walmart:

We should be demanding similar requirements for every human on this Earth.

Good for the WM employees for getting together to do this.

So you think the federal minimum wage should be raised up to a little over $12 an hour? Because that is how much it takes to equal $25 k a year. Have fun paying all the extra money that companies would charge for *everything* to pay for that shiat.

jayphat:Yes there will be a large number of people on foodstamps working for Walmart. They are the largest private employer in the country. You'll probably be shocked, SHOCKED to know that state and federal workers are on foodstamps too. Maybe they need their pay raised as well.

Dude, the HR office at the Wal-Mart my sister works at has a stack of Medicaid forms for the new hires when they ask about benefits.

I am not making this up.

They also have WIC applications if you get pregnant. And the HR manager will help you fill out the paperwork!

sethen320:Nutsac_Jim: WhyteRaven74: steamingpile: Sue for what? Forcing them to show up for the job they said they would show up for? Some of you are farking insane.

it's illegal to fire employees for organizing or trying to organize. It's a federal law, and in some states there are additional laws. Laws go back to when Carnegie Steel called in the Pinkertons and had them get all shooty with some striking workers.

You don't fire them for organizing. You fire them for not showing up to work.

*WINK* *NUDGE*

Yes, I get that you've found a legal loophole but that still doesn't make it morally right. You do know what morals are, right? Should I post a definition for you?

It would bother me to just not show up to work and leave my employer hanging. That moral thing....

Bucky Katt:Damn unions. Always standing up for the takers not the makers.

Really? Because the National Writer's Union certainly stands up for intellectual property creators, as opposed to the folks who want access to said intellectual property to distribute it. Come to think of it, they also seem to represent a LOT of folks who have skilled trades as well.

Unions represent labor as opposed to those who suckle at the teat of said labor. Be that labor in a factory, in schools, in film, authors, artists, artisans, cooks, chefs, workers in a mill. Unions represent the folks whose labor enables executives to pad out their expense accounts and take their stock options.

Zebulon:So you think the federal minimum wage should be raised up to a little over $12 an hour? Because that is how much it takes to equal $25 k a year. Have fun paying all the extra money that companies would charge for *everything* to pay for that shiat.

ox45tallboy:Okay people, since there are so many who do not understand what it is like for an average Wal-Mart employee:

But obviously she WANTS to work there and loves it.

...At least according to certain jack-holes on this board tonight.

Myself, I totally feel for her entire family. Occasionally, when money has been tight, my wife has entertained the idea of working at WallyWorld for the holidays. So far, I've been able to talk her out of it, and we've always survived. I can only hope that trend will continue.

ox45tallboy:megalynn44: Where she gets to be stereotyped as a lazy, stupid loser who doesn't even deserve basic laborer protections for safety and health.

So what do you think of all these people in the thread saying "if she doesn't like it, then she should find herself another job"?

I think those people are spoiled little assholes who have no concept of how bad working conditions could be for them if millions of people in the past hadn't fought hard for workers rights. You stop fighting for them, you lose them. I think making sure everyone gets a certain level of respect as a human being is a very important part of society.

ox45tallboy:jayphat: Yes there will be a large number of people on foodstamps working for Walmart. They are the largest private employer in the country. You'll probably be shocked, SHOCKED to know that state and federal workers are on foodstamps too. Maybe they need their pay raised as well.

Dude, the HR office at the Wal-Mart my sister works at has a stack of Medicaid forms for the new hires when they ask about benefits.

I am not making this up.

They also have WIC applications if you get pregnant. And the HR manager will help you fill out the paperwork!

ox45tallboy:jayphat: Yes there will be a large number of people on foodstamps working for Walmart. They are the largest private employer in the country. You'll probably be shocked, SHOCKED to know that state and federal workers are on foodstamps too. Maybe they need their pay raised as well.

Dude, the HR office at the Wal-Mart my sister works at has a stack of Medicaid forms for the new hires when they ask about benefits.

I am not making this up.

They also have WIC applications if you get pregnant. And the HR manager will help you fill out the paperwork!

I worked in 9, NINE, different Walmarts, 3 as a manager. Never once did I ever see or encourage anyone to fill out forms for social assistance. This situation actually baffels me.

WhyteRaven74:Fade2black: Not everybody needs an economics class to understand that if you jump up every single "no training required" job to "gainfully employed" that it would collapse the economy.

one of the things Richard Nixon wanted to introduce was a living wage law. Let that sink in for a while.

It's amazing how "liberal" people like Reagan and Nixon look when compared to today's Republican Party platform. Or at least what it was days before the election. I honestly have no idea what the Republican Party thinks it stands for now that Obama's been reëlected.

Sergeant Grumbles:Zebulon: So you think the federal minimum wage should be raised up to a little over $12 an hour? Because that is how much it takes to equal $25 k a year. Have fun paying all the extra money that companies would charge for *everything* to pay for that shiat.

debug:ILoveBurritos: I get that this is mainly a workers vs employers thread at this point, but I can't help but think that the real problem is the consumers (and excessive consumerism). No one wants to pay for decently made products anymore because the only thing consumers look at is the price tag. I'm not good at explaining myself, but it feels like we all assume we've given up on even thinking we can rehabilitate the public on shopping effectively. Like consumers are compelled to shop at Walmart, just open one and people will flock there unable to control themselves.On a tangent though, I've read that companies that want to sell with Walmart have to meet certain price guidelines otherwise Walmart won't carry their products and since Walmart is such an important chain to sell through. Companies are basically forced to make cheaper products for these dumbass consumers.What this really all comes down to is that I hadn't had to buy denim jeans for a decade, and now that I'm looking, all I can find anywhere is paper thin garbage that doesn't feel sturdy at all, anywhere. When I compare it to my old ones, the newer ones are obviously inferior. Why would I want to spend $30 on a cheap pair of jeans I'll end up replacing 5 times in the span that a $60 pair would have lasted me once?

Great Janitor:ox45tallboy: Great Janitor: Taking a guess, I'm going to say that for those employees who aren't happy working there, there probably are enough other jobs out there to take. They just have to go out and find the job.

Indeed. You are merely taking a guess. Do you know how long my sister had to wait before the opening in Wal-Mart came up?

So, she just waited for an opening at Walmart? Did she not apply for work anywhere else?

I don't know about where you live, but in my area, even after all the illegal aliens taking jobs, there are still plenty of job openings. Some companies can't even hire enough people. Tax season is starting up. I know people starting classes next week to get their IRS certifications to do tax work. I have a friend who started a job today, all he does is pass out flyers. He gets paid ten cents for every flyer he passes out and paid daily. He made $87 in just four hours. I've got another friend, he just works two and a half hours a night door knocking for a roofing company. He's making a thousand dollars a week.

There are jobs out there. No one has to settle for Walmart unless they want to.

This hasn't been argued yet, but I think part of the problem may be employers requiring college degrees where they're really not necessary. I've noticed that trend in recent years. I don't have any data to back that up, it's just anecdotal.

Nutsac_Jim:sethen320: Nutsac_Jim: WhyteRaven74: steamingpile: Sue for what? Forcing them to show up for the job they said they would show up for? Some of you are farking insane.

it's illegal to fire employees for organizing or trying to organize. It's a federal law, and in some states there are additional laws. Laws go back to when Carnegie Steel called in the Pinkertons and had them get all shooty with some striking workers.

You don't fire them for organizing. You fire them for not showing up to work.

*WINK* *NUDGE*

Yes, I get that you've found a legal loophole but that still doesn't make it morally right. You do know what morals are, right? Should I post a definition for you?

It would bother me to just not show up to work and leave my employer hanging. That moral thing....

I do good for my employer, and they pay me very well. If they paid me less than I could live on our agreement would be different.

Mija:That is the Republican dream. Heck, I bet when they owned slaved they biatched because they had to feed and shelter them. Face it, Republican/Libertarians won't truly be happy till they have child slaves working for free and sleeping on the ground outside the factories.

This is pretty much the modern version of those arguments.Wage slavery is far from chattel slavery, as representative democracy is far from dictatorship and capitalism is far from plain feudalism. The hierarchies are more flexible, and for a reason. Some people have forgotten that reason. So the main argument is held by two factions of the leaders of these hierarchies, those who forgot why they made things more flexible and those who haven't.Democrats realize that if you want subservient wage labor underclasses you at least want to take the time to be "benevolent" about it in the same way "benevolent" slave masters took care of their slaves with the basics to stay productive. A slave master has a duty to be a "moral" slavemaster and do right by his business. Republicans are the people who say "fark it, they're subhuman scum that are where they deserve to be and all I care about is being a step above them so I'm going to keep abusing them until I have none left and I destroy my entire plantation or a slave rebellion kicks in."And abolitionists are just looked at as batshiat crazy.

jayphat:Any retail store where the door locks on the inside require a key to unlock them is a fire marshals wet farking dream!

And any store where nothing is required to unlock the doors but pushing a handle is a burglar's farking wet dream.

Besides, the fire doors can still be opened. If you'd read TFA, you would have found out that the workers were threatened with their jobs if they went out the fire door, and there wasn't a fire, even if that person was seriously injured.

Mikey1969:Here's another part:Several Wal-Mart employees said that as recently as a few months ago they had been locked in on some nights without a manager who had a key. Robert Schuster said that until last October, when he left his job at a Sam's Club in Colorado Springs, workers were locked in every night, and on Friday and Saturday nights there was no one there with a key. One night, he recalled, a worker had been throwing up violently, and no one had a store key to let him out.

''They told us it's a big fine for the company if we go out the fire door and there's no fire,'' Mr. Schuster said. ''They gave us a big lecture that if we go out that door, you better make sure it's an emergency like the place going up on fire.''

"a worker had been throwing up violently""if we go out that door, you better make sure it's an emergency"

If an employee is that sick, then... it's an emergency. What's the problem??

Watching "progressives" swallow their puke trying to defend Wal Mart workers is worth the price of admission. "Do you know someone who'll do that job?" "It will take time for Wal Mart to train another mouth breather to do the job." Disdain and self congratulatory pity forming a superstorm of liberal smugness, guess what pukes this is the real little man you purport to defend. Not alot of locally sourced craft beers being sipped amongst the dudes who stock shelves at 2 in the morning.

Funny story. Times were tough, and I'm not ashamed to say that work was better than no work. Go to Walmart, and ask to apply for a job. They point me to a kiosk to fill out my info into their computers.

Kiosk was broken. I figured out how it worked, booted it correctly, started their application and then filled out the info.

Later, no job. I could fix their job kiosk, but not get employment. Womp womp.

Sylvia Allegretto, a labor economist at the Center on Wage and Employment Dynamics at the University of California-Berkeley, compared the Waltons' cumulative net worth with that of the overall population, as cited in the Survey of Consumer Finances. (She used the Waltons' wealth from 2010, which was valued at $89.5 billion.)

Allegretto found that in 2007, the wealth held by the six Waltons was equal to that of the bottom 30.5 percent of families in the U.S. In 2010, the Waltons' share equaled the entire bottom 41.5 percent of families.

Walmart can afford raises for everyone.

Those people who you are talking about have all their money from SHARES of STOCK in the company. They do not, in any way, impact how much money Walmart spends on payroll. You cannot take money away from them and somehow give it to the employees.

Mikey1969:Myself, I totally feel for her entire family. Occasionally, when money has been tight, my wife has entertained the idea of working at WallyWorld for the holidays. So far, I've been able to talk her out of it, and we've always survived. I can only hope that trend will continue.

Her husband just got a breakthrough on his disability, so it looks like she can possibly quit. She's probably going to do so in solidarity with this bunch.

megalynn44:I think those people are spoiled little assholes who have no concept of how bad working conditions could be for them if millions of people in the past hadn't fought hard for workers rights. You stop fighting for them, you lose them. I think making sure everyone gets a certain level of respect as a human being is a very important part of society.

Thank you for that.

jayphat:I worked in 9, NINE, different Walmarts, 3 as a manager. Never once did I ever see or encourage anyone to fill out forms for social assistance. This situation actually baffels me.

How long ago was that? And when you were a manager, did you force your "part-time" employees to work 40 hours every week, but still call them "part-time" so that they didn't get benefits?

Nutsac_Jim:Hey, kind of like a union. You either join the union, or you don't work.

That always seemed to me like the Health Insurance Mandate of Obamacare. I see the rationale (all the workers benefit from the Union, so everyone needs to contribute) but I don't like it.