Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.

Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Usenet originated among Northern hemisphere universities, where every year in September, a large number of new university freshmen acquired access to Usenet for the first time, and took some time to acclimatise to the network's standards of conduct and "netiquette". After a month or so, these new users would theoretically learn to comport themselves according to its conventions, or simply tire of using the service. September thus heralded the peak influx of disruptive newcomers to the network.[1]

In other words: Be one with the flaws, embrace them, only then can you truly reach zen.

I dunno, I've been pretty open about the fact that Dance Central just isn't for me.

The problem is, so many of the games get insta-dismissed despite their various merits.

I've spent most time with Your Shape : Fitness Evolved. Really like it. However, most forum-dwelling posters wouldn't even register such a title in their peripheral vision as a source of entertainment, let alone accept it may actually be any good or represent innovation in such diverse fields as interface design, human / tool / videogame interaction, social media, sponsorship and DLC experimentation. Instead, and a far cry from that genre, when presented with something like Child of Eden; a genuinely excellent game with a tangible USP which can be found to harness the strengths of the system in ways people have been requesting since launch, we see;

I am a big Rez fan but that's just one game (if I bought hardware for just one game I'd own a Jaguar)

See what I mean? Good job there is more than just that game on the system then, not to mention the other applications for the device. So yeah, for such reasons, I tend to go overboard and overemphasize the positive.

I'm fully aware of Kinects flaws, moreso than most since I've spent so much time using the thing. Knowing and experiencing those flaws also allows you to more clearly observe where genuine potential resides and where even lousy-looking videos can translate into decent gameplay experiences.

And man, you don't want to be within earshot when I have trouble getting a certain excercise routine to register correctly during a 'Your Shape' session...

I feel you man, I've dealt with years of unnecessary and uninformed hate against the Wii.

Some hackers say Sony wants to deter customers from modifying the PlayStation3. Is that true?

No, there’s a real misnomer there, we embrace independent game development; if you call that hacking, then we embrace that. We give people tools that let them create new experiences. What I don’t think we are in support of is someone trying to hack our device to pirate software and possibly collapse the platform.

Actual hacking is one thing - acquiring pepole's personal information because the company has crap security. I would never condone that but at least it's mildly impressive and points out flaws in their system. But DDOSing is nothing.

Some hackers say Sony wants to deter customers from modifying the PlayStation3. Is that true?

No, there’s a real misnomer there, we embrace independent game development; if you call that hacking, then we embrace that. We give people tools that let them create new experiences. What I don’t think we are in support of is someone trying to hack our device to pirate software and possibly collapse the platform.

What.

Well that's utterly stupid.

"No, no, we want our users to issue commands to the game system via controllers, if you call that hacking then we embrace that. Those are tools to interact with the game. But I'm pretty sure we don't like actual hacking, at least, I think maybe perhaps that's a negative thing..."

Some hackers say Sony wants to deter customers from modifying the PlayStation3. Is that true?

No, there’s a real misnomer there, we embrace independent game development; if you call that hacking, then we embrace that. We give people tools that let them create new experiences. What I don’t think we are in support of is someone trying to hack our device to pirate software and possibly collapse the platform.

What.

I can only assume he's talking about homebrew, but my god, has any other company gone to greater lengths to kill homebrew than Sony? Maybe Nintendo with their Wii firmware updates that loved to brick consoles (though even those weren't as frequent as PSP's slew of firmware updates)... Can't think of many others though.

I can only assume he's talking about homebrew, but my god, has any other company gone to greater lengths to kill homebrew than Sony? Maybe Nintendo with their Wii firmware updates that loved to brick consoles (though even those weren't as frequent as PSP's slew of firmware updates)... Can't think of many others though.

He can't possibly be talking about homebrew in either case. They don't "give people tools" to create homebrew to my knowledge, and real homebrew isn't always used to "pirate games and collapse the system."

Also I'm pretty sure the console bricking thing has always been blown way out of proportion for all companies. I don't think anyone's put out an update that intentionally bricked your system if you had homebrew - at least every Wii update that blocked it simply deleted your homebrew and nothing more. There's concern that the 3DS agreement says your handheld may get bricked, but it's been an empty threat so far.

If anyone got bricked it was because they were dicking around with stuff they shouldn't have, typically while installing homebrew and not while installing an official update.

I think I remember one of the Wii firmware updates being very dodgy, touching stuff in boot1. It wasn't intended to brick hacked Wiis, unhacked systems were equally at risk.

Again I might be remembering wrong but I think the 3DS is capable of bricking flash carts. Nintendo will never brick the system but anything you attach to it is considered fair game.

Yeah, this. I don't think it was ever intended to brick the console, just that was an unfortunate side-effect of touching the boot sector. I do think the firmware was largely an "anti-piracy" firmware update though.

I think I remember one of the Wii firmware updates being very dodgy, touching stuff in boot1. It wasn't intended to brick hacked Wiis, unhacked systems were equally at risk.

Again I might be remembering wrong but I think the 3DS is capable of bricking flash carts. Nintendo will never brick the system but anything you attach to it is considered fair game.

Yeah, this. I don't think it was ever intended to brick the console, just that was an unfortunate side-effect of touching the boot sector. I do think the firmware was largely an "anti-piracy" firmware update though.

I think we've had two firmware updates that added functionality, one for loading off SD cards, the other for Wii Speak (lol), everything else has been anti-homebrew. I am still on 4.2 and can access the shop and play games that "require" later firmwares.

Also @ Moioink & Warlock82 - you've again made a bunch of innaccurate slights but I can't be arsed to correct them since no-one wants to fucking hear it and the forums keep wigging out anyway.

Better to explain yourself or say nothing at all than than to say "I'm right, you're wrong, but I don't feel like elaborating."

Who says? You? Well that's just like, your opinion man.

Nice trolling though, I'll bite.

Without getting too list warzzz and stating explicit game features there are other (more significant) flaws to be addressed.

1. (I've yet to see anything that actually makes me want to spend $150 on the thing (this is again assuming I could even use it - which I can't given my TV setup and Kinect's large space requirements))

Very few folks ever will see anything specific that makes them want to spend $150 on a peripheral but as is increasingly the case a wider variety of applications add up to a greater sum than their disparate parts. Same as buying new consoles - there may be one specific game that you simply must play but those are few, far between and rarely widely agreed upon. Usually there are a few decent games which are enough to justify a purchase. For me, there are also the dashboard features, voice control over movies, the video stuff and curiosity apps in addition to the variety of games which I wanted to play. Maybe it is future potential you have seen in a video, something like the Forza head-tracking, which is the final factor, not enough on it's own, but combined with other justifications becomes another valid reason.

2. People keep talking about 'hardcore' games for 'hardcore' gamers. Doesn't actually mean anything. I'm a hardcore gamer. Turns out I enjoy some 'casual' games on Kinect that IMHO have far more going for them from a technologically progressive viewpoint than whatever the next ShooterKloneElite2012 game has, and so paradoxically I consider them more hardcore in nature. There have been more than 10,000,000 Kinects sold - who is to say that Kinect Sports ISN'T the hardcore game hardcore gamers have been waiting for?

3. Dismissing Kinect Sports or Kinect Adventures (and by implication, most of the current catalogue) as 'Wii-ripoffs' is fundamentally missing the point of what they are, what Kinect is about, what Wii was about and simultaneosuly positions such titles as being incompatible with any progressive discussion. And hey, if I don't like it, that just makes me a stupid fanboy, right? Similarly, listing Wii Fit and EA Sports Active while referencing Your Shape and following with 'Great, the Kinect is doing stuff the Wii did a few years ago. *golfclap*' is demonstrating an obtusely willful dismissal of any and all progression within such a genre, the differentiation in technology and a raft of other very real enhancements and innovations as inconsequential. It is a position borne through ignorance, so if attempting to correct such misunderstandings, misrepresentations or plain misgivings about a product I enjoy using makes me a fanboy, so fucking be it.

It's great that you are enjoying Kinect, I am delighted for you. The issue is that you get all upset when others don't share the same enthusiasm and you try to rationalise it as close mindedness. I bought the Wii and the Wii Fit on their launches, I even went as far as to import both of them from America. I am not someone who dismisses out of hand new technology, it's just to me the applications of Kinect's technology do not feel new to me.

Some of those games might be building on certain Wii games, you might even think they are made better, point is for me they are old experiences, retreads. It is not software that is going to sell me the system.

I find the "hardcore" label really has no meaning. These days it seems to mean "plays a lot of Modern Shooter 8" but IMO if you don't have a SNES, you have no "hardcore" credentials with me :p

Also @ Moioink & Warlock82 - you've again made a bunch of innaccurate slights but I can't be arsed to correct them since no-one wants to fucking hear it and the forums keep wigging out anyway.

Better to explain yourself or say nothing at all than than to say "I'm right, you're wrong, but I don't feel like elaborating."

Who says? You? Well that's just like, your opinion man.

Nice trolling though, I'll bite.

Without getting too list warzzz and stating explicit game features there are other (more significant) flaws to be addressed.

1. (I've yet to see anything that actually makes me want to spend $150 on the thing (this is again assuming I could even use it - which I can't given my TV setup and Kinect's large space requirements))

Very few folks ever will see anything specific that makes them want to spend $150 on a peripheral but as is increasingly the case a wider variety of applications add up to a greater sum than their disparate parts. Same as buying new consoles - there may be one specific game that you simply must play but those are few, far between and rarely widely agreed upon. Usually there are a few decent games which are enough to justify a purchase. For me, there are also the dashboard features, voice control over movies, the video stuff and curiosity apps in addition to the variety of games which I wanted to play. Maybe it is future potential you have seen in a video, something like the Forza head-tracking, which is the final factor, not enough on it's own, but combined with other justifications becomes another valid reason.

2. People keep talking about 'hardcore' games for 'hardcore' gamers. Doesn't actually mean anything. I'm a hardcore gamer. Turns out I enjoy some 'casual' games on Kinect that IMHO have far more going for them from a technologically progressive viewpoint than whatever the next ShooterKloneElite2012 game has, and so paradoxically I consider them more hardcore in nature. There have been more than 10,000,000 Kinects sold - who is to say that Kinect Sports ISN'T the hardcore game hardcore gamers have been waiting for?

3. Dismissing Kinect Sports or Kinect Adventures (and by implication, most of the current catalogue) as 'Wii-ripoffs' is fundamentally missing the point of what they are, what Kinect is about, what Wii was about and simultaneosuly positions such titles as being incompatible with any progressive discussion. And hey, if I don't like it, that just makes me a stupid fanboy, right? Similarly, listing Wii Fit and EA Sports Active while referencing Your Shape and following with 'Great, the Kinect is doing stuff the Wii did a few years ago. *golfclap*' is demonstrating an obtusely willful dismissal of any and all progression within such a genre, the differentiation in technology and a raft of other very real enhancements and innovations as inconsequential. It is a position borne through ignorance, so if attempting to correct such misunderstandings, misrepresentations or plain misgivings about a product I enjoy using makes me a fanboy, so fucking be it.

1. Let me rephrase - I've yet to see anything that even borders on "decent" or "interesting" (let alone a "killer app") to make me want to spend $150 on the thing. I don't know how this is hard to understand - there are literally no Kinect games that interest me in any way what-so-ever. I will admit I am mildly curious about Child of Eden, but that's also controller-enabled. I'm also not spending $150 so I can wave my hands around like an idiot to scroll across the dashboard.

2. Yes, you enjoy those games. A LOT of people do not. You're right, "hardcore" is a bad word, but as good a catch-all word as any. Ultimately, it's saying that "the experiences offered by Kinect do not appeal to a large group of people."

3. I'm not going to address Moioink's comments as they are not mine. But come on here. They are totally building off what Wii established for motion games. Maybe they are doing more with it, but it's not significantly different. The point is that Kinect has not really offered any *new* ideas. If I even cared about any of these types of games (which personally I don't), I've got a Wii. I can get a fairly similar experience with hardware I already own.

So I can't help but think targetting EVE online was a mistake for them considering some of the people that play that game.

Yeah, kicking the GoonSwarm beehive isn't the best idea.

4chan is explicitly an SA spinoff. It was founded by a goon, for goons. The crossover in population is probably 90%. The /v/ EVE corp is part of Goonswarm, for starters.

Furthermore, Goonswarm itself and all of its incarnations was made specifically to ruin EVE for everyone else. If I remember correctly they once ganked everyone including the commentators and CCP officials during one of the PVP tournaments, ddos'd the live stream and flooded the message boards with automated spam proclaiming their victory.

Taking down the login server temporarily is barely fraction of the grief that the swarm has unleashed upon that game. If they weren't paid subscriptions they would all have been permabanned a long, long time ago.

I find the "hardcore" label really has no meaning. These days it seems to mean "plays a lot of Modern Shooter 8" but IMO if you don't have a Mega Drive, you have no "hardcore" credentials with me :p

We very nearly agreed on something!

Warlock82 - couldn't disagree more on your final point (3) so we'll leave it there, I have a feeling neither of us is going to persuade the other so meh, probably a good time to stop talking about games and go play some!

If an Angry Birds spinoff game came out for Kinect I think it could have the potential to be the single most hated entity which this thread could discuss. It would go on to sell about 3 million copies in as many months in spite of this.

If an Angry Birds spinoff game came out for Kinect I think it could have the potential to be the single most hated entity which this thread could discuss. It would go on to sell about 3 million copies in as many months in spite of this.

Some hackers say Sony wants to deter customers from modifying the PlayStation3. Is that true?

No, there’s a real misnomer there, we embrace independent game development; if you call that hacking, then we embrace that. We give people tools that let them create new experiences. What I don’t think we are in support of is someone trying to hack our device to pirate software and possibly collapse the platform.

What.

Welp, he just enabled more hackings against the company for saying something stupid. He's missed the point by quite a large margin.

If an Angry Birds spinoff game came out for Kinect I think it could have the potential to be the single most hated entity which this thread could discuss. It would go on to sell about 3 million copies in as many months in spite of this.

If an Angry Birds spinoff game came out for Kinect I think it could have the potential to be the single most hated entity which this thread could discuss. It would go on to sell about 3 million copies in as many months in spite of this.

Published by Activision.

Which also uses the "Elite" model of Modern Warfare 3 and nets Activision just as much success, damning the game playing public at large by ensuring this model would get used in all other online multiplayer games.

I find the "hardcore" label really has no meaning. These days it seems to mean "plays a lot of Modern Shooter 8" but IMO if you don't have a Neo Geo AES, you have no "hardcore" credentials with me :p

We very nearly agreed on something!

Warlock82 - couldn't disagree more on your final point (3) so we'll leave it there, I have a feeling neither of us is going to persuade the other so meh, probably a good time to stop talking about games and go play some!

Double fixed:P

I find Kinect's problem for me is that it's promoted as a new console when in reality it just seems to be a BETA test accessory for features of the next Xbox console. Sure its getting some token support but right now devs are struggling to give it a proper justification for its main console games outside of gimmick ideas or menu changes. I fully expect developers to take the kinect to the level the technology deserves when it is standard (and it will almost certainly be) in the next console for now though its an expensive toy for existing 360 owners.

Ziggymon on June 2011

I have REZ for the Dreamcast PAL for sale Â£35. Other Excellent retro games for sale PM for details

It's a transcript of a call from an EA big wig to his analysts.
Some juice bits.

They made much more money off digital than packaged sales.
Much of that digital was successful microtransaction sales.
His example of a microtransaction sale was suitable outrageous for all of you to be getting into happy outrage over, I do know how you love your outrages in here.
They want to put even more effort into the whole digital thing because it works so well.
Their total packaged sales went down and their total profits went up.

If an Angry Birds spinoff game came out for Kinect I think it could have the potential to be the single most hated entity which this thread could discuss. It would go on to sell about 3 million copies in as many months in spite of this.

I do wonder if the PSP is at its final price point at which it will be discontinued at or will they drop it to $99 and still produce it for a while before throwing in the towel. It took them forever to drop it to $129. I guess they cant drop the price in the west without having a concurrent drop in Japan, where it still sells relatively well?

Why Microsoft? You could likely pad this bad boy out for another two years or so.

Because showing it off in 2012 lets them steal some of Nintendo's thunder.

If they DON'T announce it in 2012, then early adopters can go "Well, nothing else is coming out, maybe I'll try a Wii U" but if they do announce it, early adopters need to decide weather to dive in right away for a Wii U, or wait a year and see how the 720 or whatever starts turning out like.

Oh god, I wonder what dumbass name they'll attach to the next Xbox console. That should be fun.

Plus I imagine they'll be ready to do Kinect 2.0 by 2012, with built in CPU power for finger tracking and shit.