Much of what will come after this will probably be a bunch of people arguing and wasting their time, but to answer the question simply: yes. Even atheists (especially those in-your-face aggressive types) should care about religion, otherwise they wouldn't know how to formulate opinions to go against it.

Organized religion was created as a way to enslave. What one should actually care about is the spiritual journey. Your soul exists and your purpose is to fulfill specific lessons throughout this life time; to progress.

Trebor, it has nothing to do with being a leader - that's your ego which is far from a good thing.

Spirituality ties a whole lot to psychology, the more you learn about yourself; the more you will learn about others, become aware, tolerant and enlightened.

Religion is a facade intended to pull you away from discovering who you really are. It has created a crutch to fall on and implanted a fear in many to stay in line and follow along. The majority of us are born knowing wrong from right and you're nurtured into your beliefs and moral values.

You are a piece of everything around you, the sooner you realize that; the better.

"The majority of us are born knowing wrong from right and you're nurtured into your beliefs and moral values."

Clearly not a proponent of Tabula Rasa. Seriously though, we're not born knowing shit, we're taught it. Of course we're able to think for ourselves and know that certain things are just wrong, but without the cultural values we have to today, who's to say?

I still can't figure out if Camaraderie is a girl and is using her own picture on a site like this... for attention or a dude trolling all the sad guys with no one to talk to. If it is indeed the girl in the photo, I thought that haircut died in '07 with myspace trains and coontails.

I would but It's 1:30am, I've been up for a long time and basically you regurgitated most of what I said. Except, Freewill exists; you just need to realize you've been programmed by numerous influences of society and break that. My first comment on this thread states that your purpose is to figure out who you truly are. Nothing more and nothing less.

I saw this shit on the science channel where they did this test where they hooked up this dude's brain to this machine and they asked him questions and his subconscious answered the questions a few seconds before he did so like that kind of shits on freewill kind of considering your subconscious is you anyway

Gods back in the egyptian days were actually humans who unlocked the Pineal gland, allowing them to produce "powers" for lack of better words - that seemed supernatural but the truth of the matter, we're all capable of them. You've been finely tuned to keep your pineal gland inactive through many media outlets, the food you consume, medication and numerous other influences.

I feel like if I continue with this, there will be a lot of backlash but for those of you who are interested - read up on the Pineal Gland, Metaphysics and astral planes. If you're that into it, you'll find some occult related material that is good reads.

I've never really understood what people mean by "forcing religion down their throats." I grew up in church, and I still attend regularly, nobody can force you to believe anything, they can just try to teach you what they believe.

Make your comments my human brothers and sisters for I am listening. There is no reason for me to be hasty so as to make a response to each of your comments as of now.

It is late where I am as well and it would be best that I reside for the night and tommorow I will wake and be thinking of you and will make reply to those who are serious in their words and those who may be looking for a response. For God has all the answers in his word and will do nothing but relay them to you for wish not to speak my own thoughts, but those of Gods.

I do want you all to know that although I do not know you all personally I do love you all for anything that comes from my Father is perfect. So let him bring you all including myself back to perfection. And remember time is only made up. Time will continue and you need not be anxious about anything, for we can all agree that we are all presently conscious. But I ask you all to be conscious of your spiritual need and to not be stumbled by those words as those without reasoning do.

"I feel like if I continue with this, there will be a lot of backlash but for those of you who are interested - read up on the Pineal Gland, Metaphysics and astral planes. If you're that into it, you'll find some occult related material that is good reads."

AsoTamaki: Learning is a part of the process, what I said isn't something told to you by the masses. It isn't taught in school, it isn't broadcasted on the television or marketing ads. It is the recognition of a flaw within humanity that has led to the loss of self - influenced, propagated and organized with the intentions of making you blissfully unaware that the majority of your actions, words and feelings aren't truly that of your own.

Whether I read something related to the matter or not, I have developed my own understanding. I have recognized what is actually going on; with that understanding I and anyone else have the ability to completely transform who they are told they are into the true self.

I know there are a few people who actually care about religion on this site, myself included. I'm a Christian who has a lot of faith in my religion but little faith in the church. I don't give two shits on how people say I should practice my beliefs, and what I should or shouldn't do to show that I am Christian. I don't believe in shoving my beliefs down people's throats. And I ESPECIALLY don't hate you, look down on you, or think you're beneath me in any way simply because you don't believe what I believe.

Being a Christian, however, has shaped the way I act and my personality. I do the things I do because I want to follow Jesus's example...or try, anyways. I believe in God. I believe in Heaven and Hell...ect.

So yeah...there's at least one person here who cares about religion. And I don't care if you do or not--just respect my beliefs, and I'll respect yours, and we'll get along perfectly fine.

Don't lump us together as though all 2 billion of us are the same--you, Kris, should know me better than that. I don't bother with the propaganda. I don't bother with people who use Christianity as a badge of pride. I don't think either one is right.

"Don't lump us together as though all 2 billion of us are the same--you, Kris, should know me better than that. I don't bother with the propaganda. I don't bother with people who use Christianity as a badge of pride. I don't think either one is right.

Those guys came around to legally harass my school so some of people actually skipped and retaliated (not physically, obviously). One of my friends went up to them and made out with her girlfriend in front of them. The look on their faces was priceless.

"that make national news all the time because they're horrible people who do horrible things because [insert reason here]"

Fix'd. They'd do it anyways, doesn't matter the justification. They get media coverage because of the signs and slogans they make, and because they push the boundaries of legality without crossing it. As of late, however, they've become a bit of a parody of themselves--the main reason they do what they do nowadays, IMO, is to keep the media fed.

@TheDjehuty: You're simply following a less mainstream belief system. The cutting edge of "free will" or whatnot. What you were taught to believe is (in theory) no different from any religion. All of this stuff you're saying is regurgitated information that you've been exposed to. Same as quoting scripture (in theory). Everyone is influenced by others. Everyone has free will. A Christian must come to their own understanding in their lives and have a desire to repent before they can accept Christ and move forward as a Christian.

"The KKK is much more numerous though honestly aren't as bad since they don't picket funerals."

Uh, I'm pretty sure the KKK has actually killed people themselves so that's kind of a little worse than disrupting a funeral.

I am a staunch Christian but I don't follow religion. Christianity is NOT a religion. I don't go to church any more as I have seen nowadays there are just a place of people who want to take money from guys who want answers to life and solutions to their lives problems. They never get that, all they get is comfort in those problems.

It seems like modern belief has developed a serious dichotomy. You're either vehemently for or vehemently in opposition to Christianity and I don't know which is worse. Most atheists bash all theistic religions and in doing so make that a religion in itself. All I hear from non-religious people is anti-religious hatred. Why can't people get past the fact that the downfalls and blemishes in the world of religion aren't caused by religion itself, they're caused by misguided people's false interpretations of generally noble and valiant teachings. Yes, there are ignorant people who make ignorant religious mistakes, but don't let that be all you believe in. There's a difference between atheism and anti-Christianity.

according to wikipedia, encyclopedia britannica, and literally every place on the web (trust me i did heavy research after this silly comment was made), i can indeed confirm that christianity is a religion

What can any type of writing or publication tell you about a complicated philosophical system? I think the term religion is misinterpreted and is highly subjective. A religion to you may be following strictly every word in the Bible, and to me it may be simply being morally upstanding. I suppose what I meant was that with the word religion, things like churches, holy texts, prayer, and clergy come to mind, when really those things have nothing to do with a belief system at it's core.

That's still religion. I consider spirituality to be religion minus the structure of churches and shit but Christianity by definition is still a religion. To say it isn't is being in denial. You can be a spiritual Christian but you still follow a religion that is defined by its structure.

A bike or a plane is a physical object that must have a name. Whereas religion is spiritual and supernatural. The word does have a meaning yes, but that meaning has been disputed for as long as the word has existed.

Religion: noun : a set of beliefs that someone else told you to believe because you are too fucking dumb to make up your own mind and they know youll just eat that shit up because you are an idiot and they need slaves to do shit for them

I dunno, I think this is something that can never really have any defined truth, ya know? I've just always had issues with the word religion, It's so subjective and personal that it becomes meaningless is what I'm trying to say and probably only exists as an umbrella term. I honestly don't think that there's any two people on Earth with the exact same set of beliefs, so it's just easier to call similar beliefs a "religion".

If you have ever taken time to read the bible on your own rather than totally dismissing everything that is in it, you will come to realize that Christianity is way more than a system of beliefs, of not doing wrong and doing right, of avoiding going to hell and trying to go to heaven, going to church on Sunday and all that other stuff that you may associate Christianity with. Christianity is WAY WAY more than just that.

I consider myself a spiritual Christian rather than a religious Christian as I remember when I was the latter I lived a mere passive existence trying to live up to other people's dogma and rules in order to avoid going to hell. I was about to walk away from the whole thing until I came to realize that was not really going to help anything. Thank God for that, literally LOL

@benkim: Agreed, man. However, you're still following God's Word as it was written in the Bible. Therefore, it is a religion as defined by man. Unless you're following something else? Religion isn't a negative thing.

Believe me I am the least closed minded guy you will meet. It is just that all the atheists who argue against religion/Christianity usually have their mind made up. I actually meant to write ignore not avoid so that may have been a little misunderstood.

Atheists are NOT evil, in fact far from it. Other Christians are usually not happy when I say this but I actually don't believe you need to be a Christian to be a "good" person. I have met a lot of atheists that are actually people of exceptional characters and help the society and what not.

There are evil atheists but there are also evil Christians if you get what I mean.

@benkim: Agreed, man. However, you're still following God's Word as it was written in the Bible. Therefore, it is a religion as defined by man. Unless you're following something else? Religion isn't a negative thing.

**************

You could say that, but the way it has been used in the world it certainly has its major flaws. It can and is being used to manipulate and control people that's for sure.

I'm of the belief that we're all born as blank slates. There are no preconceived notions about race, gender, etc., all of that is learned. Without religion in place, who's to say we wouldn't be morally corrupt? Sure we have freedom of choice, and each of us is different, but we're all taught the same values (depending on culture).

benkim: atheists are obviously not 'evil,' but my problem with many of them is that they're so aggressive about it. To a point, their constant preaching against religion and general animosity makes them seem like they're a part of what they claim to hate. Another thing I can't stand are the atheists who are 'science advocates' as I've come to know them. The people who say shit like, "religion is bullshit, science is the way". I've never understand the correlation between christ and science. Both should be studied, but they're not mutually exclusive.

"To a point, their constant preaching against religion and general animosity makes them seem like they're a part of what they claim to hate."

As an aside to your point, here's one thing I've come to find about those who argue against a higher power--a few of them (the minority, but the minority who make themselves vocal) look down on me for what I believe, and I can't respect them, because they themselves have an issue with being looked down upon for what they DON'T believe.

I've come to find that I actually really enjoy discussions about religion with non-religious people that are started as simply that--discussions about religion. Not arguments on why I shouldn't believe in God or what atrocities people commit in the name of religion, but rather the nature of faith and belief in society and people's lives, and how it can enhance or hinder them, and why they've chosen not to follow it.

I've also found that if people's argument against religion has anything to do with the people who follow it, it's pretty invalid.

Budhism is alright (and still...), all the other religions are terrible and illogic beliefs of an Invisible man in the sky (in
general) ,usually controlled by so-called preachers of peace who have caused nothing but war,greed and intolerance , but
if we are strictly talking about religion in itself , it's not that great either since it divides people for absurd reasons , look
at this whole debate , would it occur if religions ever existed ?

Masochist: you echo my sentiments, dude. I love discussing theology with those who approach it with
an open mind. Unfortunately some of my friends have that 'the bible is a fairy-tale and people who
believe in that are fucking stupid' kind of attitude. Thing is, scholarly atheists - many of their
idols, in fact - would likely laugh at them for being so juvenile and ignorant about it. Many
atheists I've met claim they don't even need to know anything about theology to know that it's all
bullshit, which is patently false. Religion and politics are two things that cannot be argued, but
they can certainly be discussed, and knowledge of that which you support is just as important as
knowledge of that which you oppose, if you ask me. I myself would say I'm agnostic, if anything, but
I'm always receptive to discussing and learning more about these things.

"or what atrocities people commit in the name of religion,"

This is another thing that bothers me. This is a people problem, not a problem with religion. People
will always commit atrocities in the name of... well, whatever. It's easy to pin the blame on the
religion itself rather than the person's mental health.

good point gyromania , but technically it's religion that gives these madmen the power to control since it permits them to abuse people's beliefs by disguising themselves as the new messias ; I can't see why we cannot blame religion and the future despots altogether...

blaming only these madmen is also too easy , they didn't come to power by clapping their hands , they came to power by
abusing the hope of the followers , it would still occur without religion but it would certainly be harder...

mr. elmo you are in fact using the term illogical incorrectly. believeing in god is completely logical actually, since the believer is trying to make logical an occurence that has not yet been deemed "logical" by scientists, and that is the creation of the universe. believing in god is no more or less logical than believing in the big bang both have not been proven or disproven and are logical explanations.

"So the question remains of what we actually can and should call illogical? Well, for something to be illogical, it must not only not follow our current logical structure but also be something that should not have happened or something we could not even imagine happening. So what fits into this? I can only think of two things.

MrElmo: I get where you're coming from, but that's really just based on the natural charisma of a
person and their ability to control a room. It's manipulation, really, and yeah, many of them use
religion as a guiding tool to help reel in their followers, but it's more a classic example of the
strong controlling the weak imo. There are so many other motivating forces that keep people corrupt:
money, weapons, power, sex, acceptance, love, etc.

tyraelxy: wasn't speaking about the nazi's , hitler himself wanted to replace god since he saw it as an opponent .

Fourth reich: very interesting take on logic. but as Voltaire said in "L'ingénu" why would a truth as universal as the existence of god be hidden away from men , if It existed it would as bright as the sun and true as 1+1=2.

Yeah, MrElmo is right about what he says of Hitler. Off on a little tangent here: I think Hitler actually did a lot of good, despite being a cruel, cold, loathsome son of a bitch at his core. On a related note: Voltaire can suck it.

Gyromania : glad we can have a discussion but I would just like to know what could be the use of religion , any educational system built by mankind could teach us the values of peace ,tolerance and respect , therefore , what is the use of religion in such a case ?

well gyromania I can't see the good things hitler did , his employement policies basicly forcefully enroled and exploited the unemployed , his social policies where not respected , his first police force called the SA pointed his failures and were all executed during the night of 29 june 1934 . what did he do well . Also it's not voltaire who directly said the phrase but l'ingenu , an indian who came to europe and was speaking to a jansenite , voltaire strictly reports the words of the indian.

Mr.Elmo: Yes, and of course there are many, many, MANY non-catholic schools that teach us very important ideals, as well as our parents and such. Thing is, I believe those ideals are ingrained in our culture via religious teachings. Surely people wouldn't be opposed to others learning morals through religious teachings, I mean, why would they? And at the end of the day, despite what you or I may ultimately believe, isn't it nice to have a little bit of faith? To think there's something out there, maybe? Faith in general is a good thing to have, in my opinion.

I think the reason why a lot of people cite others killing or what have you in the name of religion is because it also ties into how the law works. A crime for the sake of it would surely be met with a greater penalty and less acceptance than a crazy person saying the lord told them to do it.

Well actually no ,I'me affraid faith is a waist of time for me, when you die, you die and that's it. nobody is going to help you if you call him , no invisible man in the sky, It's just a loss of useful time to have faith , why spend your time hoping and praying when you could actually do something to make the world better before you turn to smithereens? So on this note I'me affraid I don't like faith ,for it is a loss of what could be constructive time . about the law and religion , I have never seen a man get a smaller emprisonnement by simply saying god told me to.....

Well, he made the autobahn system, saved Germany from unemployment and financial catastrophe, was a part of the world's first research linking cigarettes to cancer, wrote the first law for animal rights, founded the volskwagen, instituted the kindergarten system, and he was instrumental in the development of Germany in general. Before he came to power Germany was a fucking mess. In his rule, he invested heavily in German infrastructures (many of which are still used today), unified the people, and spent money well, as well as funded trauma research. Unfortunately a lot of atrocities were committed to the Jewish people in his regime, and I'm not ignoring that (among many other things), but he still did good as well.

Tyraelxy : well I'me actually a bit of a humanist and absurdist , for me the human being is like a giant capable of creating and thinking, in the end man will inevetably cause it's ridiculous destruction ,that's for sure but we as humans must give pleasure not only for us but also to the others and make sure life get's interesting and pleasant throught art and creativity before it blows in a bang

MrElmo: Pardon my catty-ness here, but isn't this whole thread a waste of 'what could be constructive time'. I find it very telling that many people would say such a thing while ignoring the fact that many monumental contributions in the science world, and in literature were from devoutly religious people. Also, there is absolutely no way to affirm that when you die there's nothing after it.

"I have never seen a man get a smaller emprisonnement by simply saying god told me to....."

Well, it depends on the crime, guy's lawyer, etc., and trials are usually pretty long.

he did not save from unemployement , the salaries for his forced employement weren't enough to feed , the kindergarten system (also called hitlerien youths) were a massive propaganda system to control the young , before he came to power germany had a young government who just came out the 1st world war , it deserves credit for actually stopping the country from total collapsing ,wolksvagen isn't relevant , plus he didn't only massacre jewish , the said trauma centers were a cover , since he also killed the gay , the handicaped and the people with different political beliefs as well as the gipsy community

Yes ,I am wasting my time because I don't believe myself in humanity , I aknowledge it's power and importance but in the end all human actions are devoid of use and are ultimetlly absurd , we might as well spend the time we have on earth enjoying ourselves and give joy to our neighbour, althought anybody can quit this thread and make constructive time but I don't personally care; as for art ,science in literature it was cultural back then , every single thinking being had a religion , then when the century of lights (sooner for some like Rabelais) came along people started up thinking differently of the church and emancipated themselves to acquire freedom in their art.

anarchistfish: yep I agree , always pissed me off to write on the internet , plus the truth is that these kinds of debates don't have much use since nobody will change his mind in the end . Oh well I'll just go back and play MGS3 with a cup of tea now

mr elmo why would i waste my time trying to make the world a better place? it that the purpose of existence? i have no faith nor hope that it will ever improve or me doing anything will make it imporve so instead i do nothing because nothing is intended for me in life or death. when did you die by the way because it seems like you know an awful lot about death?

Yes it is the purpose of existence that people improve the world around them, except neither you , neither me are going
to do that , all we are going to do is try having a good time in this life , I died when I discovered our history. Since then i
just want to have pleasure , what about you?

mr elmo why would i waste my time trying to make the world a better place?

Maybe you are unlike me who has idealism so hardwired and is such a big part of me that there is no way I can just say I will live a life of pleasuring myself(LOL) and thats it! Trust me I tried once, when I had lost faith in humanity but that only made me sink into some serious angst. A hedonistic lifestyle is just not for me.

"I'm a catholic but I honestly don't care about religion anymore. I believe there's a god but I don't believe in the way people choose to worship their god."

Well the problem here is that people are worshiping their God based on what their church leader tells them to or other individuals. This is the problem. From what I've seen time and time again, the "Bible" is what is being ignored and people forget that the "Bible" is the source of instruction, not man, no matter how important that man may claim he/she is. This is why many churches preach about Hellfire, The Trinity, and the Immortal Soul which are all false amongst many other things.

Religion is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality and can easily just be an "enforced reality". I dont know when people started to decide what is 100% real and right for everybody, but they definitely fucked up bad.

"yes i do but i'm not a douche about it. i learned a loooong ass time ago that no one absolutely no one in the real world wants to hear about your religion so keep it to yourself. "

The term "religion" is such a mis-construed term/word. Is not religion a belief, and what an individual may practice? So whether you're part of this religion or that, or an atheist or agnostic, either way it is YOUR "belief". And whether you takling about life or your thoughts on music you are sharing or asking for another person's beliefs. So in essence you're saying that you don't care to reason with others so as to understand their viewpoints as if your viewpoints are all that matters. In fact, you are expressing the opposite of humility. The humble person will be open to discussion because the humble person sees/considers himself as inferior to others which is what the Bible encourages/commands all Christians to be. Recognize what you are actually saying and rethink your viewpoints on life FourthReich.

"I am a Christian but this is the internet so why talk about something that no one wants to talk about"

Do not be self-assuming. Sow your seed, for you do not know where it will have success.[Ecclesiases 11:6]

" Even atheists (especially those in-your-face aggressive types) should care about religion, otherwise they wouldn't know how to formulate opinions to go against it."

This is true.

"no, I'm a leader not a follower"

you cannot lead until you've followed, man was not created with memory, everything was learned with the ability to follow

"Organized religion was created as a way to enslave. What one should actually care about is the spiritual journey. Your soul exists and your purpose is to fulfill specific lessons throughout this life time; to progress."

This is actually true. But we all slaves whether we like it or not. We are either slaves to God or slaves to Satan or slaves to life or slaves to death. There is no man alive who is slave to nothing. The spiritual[another mis-construed word] journey is important because it shows a person's heart condition which is ultimately what is important to God because anyone can claim anything but God can read hearts[Jeremiah 17:10] that is why he is the Judge and not man. And yes progress is important, to not progress is to de-progress.

ironic that you should bring that up in defense of a christian drill sergeant. i grew up in a strictly christian home. your theory fails. also, its been more than 2000 years since christianity surfaced and not one person has been able to come up with solid evidence that god exists. i think that speaks for itself. there is no god, and youre just scared, weak children looking for some comfort. fucking cowards.

"Spirituality ties a whole lot to psychology, the more you learn about yourself; the more you will learn about others, become aware, tolerant and enlightened."

Do you not know that you are qouting scripture right here? Luke 6:42 "How, can you say to your brother, 'Brother, allow me to extract the straw that is in your eye,' while you yourself are not looking at the rafter in that eye of yours? Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw that is in your brother's eye."

"Religion is a facade intended to pull you away from discovering who you really are. It has created a crutch to fall on and implanted a fear in many to stay in line and follow along. The majority of us are born knowing wrong from right and you're nurtured into your beliefs and moral values."

what credibility do you have to call a belief a "facade"? As fear do you not know that the Bible says to fear God? This is not a morbid fear, it is a respectful fear, a reverential fear, or a fear of displeasing him. This is a healthy fear just as the fear that keeps you from jumping off a cliff safeguards you from harm. We all have our conscience as to what we "percieve" as being right and wrong but the Bible says that according to God's standards[as laid out in the bible], only God can decree what he says is right and wrong for humankind. According to the Bible this is what really matters.

"You are a piece of everything around you, the sooner you realize that; the better. "

Well the bible does say we are made of dust so again you are partially qouting scripture.

Eh, I care about religion but only to a small degree. I just try to respect others' opinions, so long as they are well informed, not arrogant about their beliefs, and don't treat others that don't share their beliefs as inferiors.

"ironic that you should bring that up in defense of a christian drill sergeant. i grew up in a strictly christian home. your theory fails. also, its been more than 2000 years since christianity surfaced and not one person has been able to come up with solid evidence that god exists. i think that speaks for itself. there is no god, and youre just scared, weak children looking for some comfort. fucking cowards."

Funny that nobody's ever been able to disprove God either, right? So that argument once again falls flat. And you're obviously terrified that there's something bigger than you in this universe that you can't disprove, so no, in fact you are the coward. You bringing in bad evidence is as bad a bringing no evidence at all.

No. I've debated many times before, and I always end up with idiots who make the exact same arguments. I'll sum up your next three arguments for you: 1. "The Bible is such a joke, everyone knows there's nothing true in it" 2. "So what if there is some historical relevance in the Bible that doesn't mean anything" 3. "Still you can't prove what did and didn't happen"

and here is what made you think all of the above:

1. There is this book called the Bible that was written a long time ago that teaches us many valuable lessons including one that tells us that there is something larger than us in existence.

2. Are you retarded, there is so much historical relevance in the Bible. example example example, there's no reason to believe it's not true.

3. The book was written with the sole purpose of educating those who could not witness what happened when it did, so instead we have thousands of manuscripts put into one relatively concise book that tells us how we got here and why we are here.

you act as if asking for proof is a bad thing. are you fucking stupid? do you just believe everything you hear without evidence?

as for me needing proof, i dont. proving god doesnt exist is impossible, just like its impossible to prove santa doesnt exist. "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." you cant just come up to people and say "god exists," and then when they ask for proof say "well you cant prove hes not real, so ha!" evidence, or go suck a dick.

If you were born in a different part of the world you would be a different religion and you would be convinced that that religion is the right one and the other ones are shit"

It is true that many are born into certain religions and don't think twice about it but at the same time, there are also many who have stepped back and thought about where they are/where and have changed their beliefs after critical thinking. And yes many have the attitude where they believe their faith might be the correct one but it's noteworthy to see what the Bible says on the matter: Ephesians 4:5 - "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" and John 14:6 - ""Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.""

"I believe in a higher power/god of my understanding but organized religion is a joke."

Most religious organizations have produced bad fruitage. It is not the fact that groups are organized that is bad. But man have promoted forms of worship that are based on false teachings and are largely ritualistic instead of providing genuine spiritual guidance; they have been misused to control the lives of people for selfish objectives; they have been overly concerened with money collections and ornate houses of worhsip instead of spiritual values; their members are often hypocritical. Obviously no one who loves righteousnesss would want to belong to such an organization. But true religion is a frefershing contrast to all of that. Nevertheless, to fulfill the Bible's requirements, it must be organized. So share the scriptures without qouting them all, read

Hebrews 10:24,25/1Corinthians 1:10/1 Peter 2:17/and Matthew 24:14

In order for all nations to be given the oopportunity to hear that good news, the preachin must be carried out in an orderly way, with suitable oversight. Love for God and for one's fellowman has caused people around the earth to unite their efforts to do this work that the Bible commands.

Freewill is pretty much nonexistent, life is a game of chance and circumstances

The fact that you exist is really unlikely, if your dad had blown his load like 5 seconds later you wouldn't exist"

So you're saying that if my father was a murderer than I would be too? Obviously anyone with reasoning would never come to such a foolish conclusion.

"yea i care about religion but id never force it on someone"

and neither would I, in fact, neither would God as he only wants people to serve him willingly from the heart. He has never forced anyone to serve him.

"My point is that all of your values and beliefs are bullshit and are mostly cultural which is purely coincidental and has nothing to do with free choice

Unless you're the religion that isn't the major religion where you're from or the religion of your parents then you probably chose it instead of it being given to you"

Again anyone with the ability to reason will find this comment very foolish indeed.

=====

Well I've went through about less than half the thread already so I will/may continue with the rest later as I've got to get back to work. If anyone has any personal questions, feel free to shoutbox me.

I'm a committed follower of Christ. I read the Bible, I do what it says. I leave out the holier-than-thou judging of others, pointless rituals, etc that many religious folk feel obligated to do. So I read, I pray, then I go thrash.

"i go to church every so often and believe in certain parts of Christianity but i don't really care."

You're not a Christian if you believe only certain parts because even Jesus believed and qouted parts from the Old Testament. Christians are not under the mosaic law but the Old Testament is really essential to see how God feels in his heart in regards to various situations amongst many other things.

"but like ughchris said, a lot of Christians believe that everything they say is correct, and there is people like him who do the same thing."

Any Christian who believes what they say is as being true is fooling themselves. Any christian who believes what God says through his word the Bible and refers to that as any source of words within proper context has done no wrong according to the Bible. Again, glory goes to God, it does not originate within man, in fact, anything that does not originate with God, originates with the Devil according to the Bible.

"my favorite thing to do is tell christians that jesus died for his own sins, not mine. the face they make is pure gold."

I don't see how any true/educated Christians would be stumbled by this as what they should be taught according to the Bible is that Christ did die for everyones sins whether they wanted it or not. It's not a choice that individuals have but they do have the choice to make the ransom of Jesus invalid by ignoring God's laws and principles.

"I don't have a set belief system. You're wrong."

Choosing to not have a set belief system is a belief system.

"I am a staunch Christian but I don't follow religion. Christianity is NOT a religion. I don't go to church any more as I have seen nowadays there are just a place of people who want to take money from guys who want answers to life and solutions to their lives problems. They never get that, all they get is comfort in those problems. "

I don't blame because those places of the Devil are practicing non-scriptural things. Tithings are against the bible and yet many churches do it. The bible says you receive freely so give freely, but they use the word for selfish gain because even they should be giving freely. Why do you think Jesus overturned the money changers in the temple of God? Jesus was the lowliest of all mankind according to the Bible and yet you see these priest who are filthy. I TELL YOU ALL THESE MEN ARE HAVING THEIR PORTION BECAUSE THAT IS ALL THEY WILL GET, GOD WILL WIPE OUT ALL THESE FALSE TEACHERS WHO ARE MISLEADING MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS. Excuse my tone, but this is how God feels about it too. Again!! It was wrong for these men to be taking money for personal gain. It is wrong and un-scriptural.

"It seems like modern belief has developed a serious dichotomy. You're either vehemently for or vehemently in opposition to Christianity and I don't know which is worse. Most atheists bash all theistic religions and in doing so make that a religion in itself. All I hear from non-religious people is anti-religious hatred. Why can't people get past the fact that the downfalls and blemishes in the world of religion aren't caused by religion itself, they're caused by misguided people's false interpretations of generally noble and valiant teachings. Yes, there are ignorant people who make ignorant religious mistakes, but don't let that be all you believe in. There's a difference between atheism and anti-Christianity."

I like how you worded this. Basically when it comes down to it people need to reason for themselves, not stake their beliefs on what they're told. The Bible even says to "make the truth your own". This means individuals must come to their own conclusions by their own research. I didn't just decide one day that I believed the Bible was the word of God. I've spent tedious years and tears and pain coming to this conclusion. Most of it could have been avoided because of my foolishness so it doesn't have to be that difficult for everyone but I wouldn't take back any of my past as they are my foundations for who I am, but I do regret when I went against what I may have knew what was right at any given time and had the ability to do so.

"satan is my master so no"

At least you are stern about what you believe in. This is better than those who are lukewarm, meaning those who are double life leaders. Revelation 3:15,16 - "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold or else hot. So, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth."

Facetious maybe you were being, but a prophet I have never claimed. To be clear so that all may know, I have claimed nothing more than one who is relating what the "Bible" actually says, as well as claiming that I believe every word that was contained in the original text[that wasn't changed] is accurate to the "T" as well as the Bible being in perfect harmony as well as me being an imperfect individual who is doing nothing more than following my heart/mind/ and power of reasoning.

"no satan is about freedom man and livin life and not givin a fuck"

are you sure about that Hyperion? You think you're free? What have you been made free from? You are still a human and are subject to death, you are a slave of death. So again, what exactly are you free from?

"If you have ever taken time to read the bible on your own rather than totally dismissing everything that is in it, you will come to realize that Christianity is way more than a system of beliefs, of not doing wrong and doing right, of avoiding going to hell and trying to go to heaven, going to church on Sunday and all that other stuff that you may associate Christianity with. Christianity is WAY WAY more than just that."

This is true Benkim but according to the Bible. But remember Hellfire does not exist. No loving God would have you burn in hell for eternity due to your imperfect nature that you can't avoid, besides all the other direct scriptures that say otherwise.

"I consider myself a spiritual Christian rather than a religious Christian as I remember when I was the latter I lived a mere passive existence trying to live up to other people's dogma and rules in order to avoid going to hell. I was about to walk away from the whole thing until I came to realize that was not really going to help anything. Thank God for that, literally LOL"

Continue learning my brother, for I feel there are still many truths of the Bible that you are still yet to come to an understanding of. I will be thinking of you and may contact you personally.

"If you have ever taken time to read the bible on your own you would realize how horrible the morals in that book are. "

Tell me just one moral in the Bible that is terrible Eternium.

"I agree that King David saw another man's wife take a bath and had him killed so he could fuck her that shit was so cash."

Yes and thank God who is humble enough to include the faults of his own servants for an example to all others. This is a loving God, not a haughty one.

"This is probably the most complicated, touchy subject on our fucking planet."

"If you have ever taken time to read the bible on your own you would realize how horrible the morals in that book are.

Tell me just one moral in the Bible that is terrible Eternium."

I may not be Eternium but the bible is full of bad teachings. The old testament especially which condemns torture and murder of people who believe otherwise, or are 'sinful'.

The bible teachs you that you are born scum and undeserving of grace for your natural inclinations that you have no control over such as your desire for pride, and libido. It teaches you to feel sorry and apologize for actions which are of no harm to anyone.

The old testament encourages slaves and is never discredited in the new testament, say what you will but people used this as an excuse to justify slavery for hundreds of years.

The old testament treats women like objects, and even in Timothy 1 it is said that women are to be subordinate to men and there are many fundies who follow this true to this day.

What I hate about Christianity is that nobody acts like a true Christian. How can you say you are a follower of Christ when you follow absolutely none of his dogma? I don't see people giving up their worldly possessions, and forgiving their enemies: yet they claim to be followers of this way of life. Either we have to admit that Jesus was just as greedy as us or that he preached a selfless lifestyle and we just don't feel like obeying him.

I am a Christian, but it's not something that I throw at people if they dont want to hear it. I will pray for them, but if they are not willing, that is their decision. However, if they are willing, I will do my best to share the love of God to them.

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." Leviticus 25:44-46

"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death." Exodus 21:15

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." Leviticus 20:10

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." 2 Chronicles 15:12-13

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Because they wanted to control people and make them obedient, as is the true purpose of religion (other than explaining what at the time was unexplainable). Barbaric bronze age morals are being pushed onto us because of religion.

Since Adam and Eve sinned, we lost our perfection. So something needed to die. So we had sacrifices and such. We had what was called the old covenant and people had to die for committing those sins. Once Jesus came and died on the cross, he took our place. Then we had what was called the new covenant, which means that we are no longer sinning and dying, like those verses say.

I don't think Adam and Eve, nor most of the book of Genesis was meant to be taken as literally as it is. I think they're supposed to be just stories to show God's power and omnipotence. Anyway Jews wrote the thing so they should know more than a typical Christian should

Why the hell would god create such a vast and expansive universe and not mention it at all in his holy book and only put his people on one really tiny planet that isn't even in the center of the universe

Why the hell would god create such a vast and expansive universe and not mention it at all in his holy book and only put his people on one really tiny planet that isn't even in the center of the universe

I will never attack anyone about their religion. I respect everyone's opinion on religion. I just don't agree with them. Like I said if you don't want to hear it, so be it, but I will continue to pray for you.

"Why believe in a god when there is no proof like I really don't understand this"

because you are too weak minded to be able to come to your own conclusions, the advent of a death following a life that means nothing more than a bunch of cells that came together over a million years scares you so much that you are willing to believe bombastic and illogical tales to help numb the fear of truly not having any point to existing

basically humans fear not being here for a purpose, and will fill that void with any random shit they managed to have forced on them when they were too young to make their own decisions

"I don't think Adam and Eve, nor most of the book of Genesis was meant to be taken as literally as it is."

Pretty sure everyone 3000 years ago believed that some type of God or gods created the universe as it was and had no concept of gradual evolution. For instance, they had no clue about the dinosaurs, which is why they are not mentioned in the Bible.

"Why the hell would god create such a vast and expansive universe and not mention it at all in his holy book and only put his people on one really tiny planet that isn't even in the center of the universe"

Huh? Have we discovered somewhere better for us to live in this vast and expansive universe? I don't keep up with these things.

Why the hell would god create such a vast and expansive universe and not mention it at all in his holy book and only put his people on one really tiny planet that isn't even in the center of the universe

Yeah but an omnipotent being can't just "feel like it" it doesn't have any feelings

My point about the universe thing is why the hell would he make billions of stars and planets and shit for no reason, I thought we were put here for a reason, so why the fuck does nothing else have a reason. Don't make sense

You're not in the mind of god, your mind has god like attributes. ACTIVATE YOUR PINEAL GLAND; SERIOUSLY.. and don't call me crazy, etc until you read about metaphysics and the pineal gland, it's representation in numerous different cultures throughout history, it's current representation in major societies i.e - there's a giant Pinecone monument at the Vatican that represents the pineal gland.

Hyperion, I became a Christian three years ago when I was 16. I think I was old enough to make my own decision. And I fear nothing, because I have God living in me. I live by faith. If I die and there is no God, I was a fool, but I don't think that will be the case.

My point about the universe thing is why the hell would he make billions of stars and planets and shit for no reason, I thought we were put here for a reason, so why the fuck does nothing else have a reason. Don't make sense

maybe its so that we dont get bored on this tiny earth lol. maybe he wanted to show us how powerful he is and what hes capable of

String theory is still a valid conjecture, but it's been criticized. The more knowledge we gain about it though, the better and if, in the end, it turns out that it actually isn't true, then we will find a new way of figuring out the origin of the universe based on evidence provided.

oh no, dath is talking horse shit. do you really think like that dath?

think like what? im merely giving him possible reasons off the top of my head that God could have possibly mad the rest of the universe. my point is basically what Aso said: just because we dont know the reason, doesnt mean there isnt one

"if there's no point to life why is it so bad that people believe this way?"

Because billions of people believe in scientifically disproven and irrational things, spending time in churches that could be spent benefiting society. Yes, Christians and everyone else do often help out the needy and less fortunate but the most powerful figures would rather rant about how homosexuality and condoms and contraceptives and evolution and facts that disagree with their beliefs are evil.

omg please stop you guys nobody is going to change anyone else's religious views by posting tl;dr comments on a sputnik thread. also i think the real issue at hand is that this circle jerk is taking the spotlight away from my list, which should obviously be the center of attention right now.

The simple fact that there are things beyond human understanding should tell you that there is a
God.

Just because there are things that are beyond human understanding doesn't mean that it has to
come
from God. Science has already filled in so many gaps to the origin of our universe and people are
supposed to think that God is responsible to fill in those other gaps?

"Because billions of people believe in scientifically disproven and irrational things, spending time in churches that could be spent benefiting society. Yes, Christians and everyone else do often help out the needy and less fortunate but the most powerful figures would rather rant about how homosexuality and condoms and contraceptives and evolution and facts that disagree with their beliefs are evil."

what's the point of any of this if there's no point to life? why even try advance if that's what you believe?

@Fluttertank - YES. In order to be a complete human being there needs to be a balance.... I mean I have life after death beliefs that coincide with this belief but if I got into that, people would really just think I'm bat shit.

On the same note as being a complete human, the physical representation of a "whole" human for lack of better words is a hermaphrodite.

"what if your purpose was to do whatever the hell you want and then die? why is that such a hard concept to grasp?"

my original question to you was why, if there is indeed no point like you said, it is bad for people to believe in God if there is no point to life? You are the most adamant person here thats why im asking

i'm not ignoring it i'm taking what your giving me here, you said the point to life was love your family, not spend time in church i just said most people (probably) go to church AND love their family tis all.

and evolution is a theory not a fact. I believe it obviously because of the evident so far but the point of science isnt to prove things, its to disprove things

'my comment has to deal with people who have to see God in order to believe in him but they believe in lots of things they havent seen'

but WE HAVE SEEN EVOLUTION, you have evidence of evolution IN YOUR BODY.

you know that milk you drink? why do you think you can digest the lactose? because when humans began to sway towards a heavy dairy diet, the lactase in our stomachs was selected for to persist past infancy so dairy could be adequately digested.

if you are white, then you know that white skin you have? light colored skin was SELECTED FOR in agricultural societies to be able to absorb more vitamin D from sunlight because of the lack of the vitamin in their diet

At one point there was only single cell organisms, and then there was only that weird algy shit or whatever and then just fish and then land creatures and then creatures walkin on two feet and shit and then humans came along and oh boy a lot of this would be a lot easier for people to believe if the other human race things like homo erectus hadn't been wiped out

You can't see evolution happen directly cuz it takes millions billions years but I mean come on I didn't see the guy deliver the newspaper this morning but I've got a pretty good idea of how it went down

They found them (not really tied into the adam and eve scenario but just earliest traces of human
existence), but they're about a few hundred thousand years apart and traced around a few million years
ago.

"You can't see evolution happen directly cuz it takes millions billions years but I mean come on I didn't see the guy deliver the newspaper this morning but I've got a pretty good idea of how it went down"

You can't see evolution happen directly cuz it takes millions billions years but I mean come on I didn't see the guy deliver the newspaper this morning but I've got a pretty good idea of how it went down

"You can't see evolution happen directly cuz it takes millions billions years but I mean come on I didn't see the guy deliver the newspaper this morning but I've got a pretty good idea of how it went down"

while that is kind of true its not the whole picture, when we look back at the biological record speciation is usually found to occur in a short time frame punctuated by long periods of evolutionary stagnation

Environmental catalysts happen all the time. It's called hurricanes, temperatures, seasons, humidity, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. and other climate/weather alterations that are on the news all the goddamn time.

my point being you cant KNOW all these things your claiming unless you've seen it happen. If you just blindly drink everything science tells you then your not progressing at all. People are where they are today because they didn't blindly drink in everything science told them. In extension you cant KNOW that God doesn't exist. And calling people dumb who do is just as dumb as blindy spouting off all this science, most of which will prolly be disproven in the future.

Why do you argue against blinding believing anything that a scientists says (which I agree with but scientists have proof and anyone is free to further prove or disprove anything) but you don't argue against blindly believing what some preacher and a book written thousands of years ago says, especially when these people say you're burning forever if you don't agree?

my argument is against people saying they KNOW that God doesnt exist. Just like you shouldn't blindly believe everything science tells you. People shouldn't blindly believe everything a preacher tells them. Shyt prolly even more so cuz its seem to have led to alot more evil happening. I agree with you there.

"If it was to be disproven, it would make way for BETTER science, not to fill in the gaps with God. That's what science is. It is ever-continuing and improving knowledge about our universe."

That's true but not the point lol you people who are saying I KNOW THIS!! are just like the people who were saying I KNOW THE EARTH IS FLAT!! It will be proven otherwise, and you'll be wrong. Just like you can't say you know the earth is flat, you can't say there is no God.

Science has nothing to do with belief, though. It's about knowing and trying to expand the knowledge of why and how you should know it. You don't just believe that evolution exists because there is so much (and I mean a lot of) evidence to prove that evolution is real that it would be deemed as continually knowning fact. We're continuously expanding our knowledge of what we know and what we're going to find out.

Maybe God doesn't exist maybe he does. We will probably never know with our human knowledge, but there
is an extremely strong claim that he did not exist provided a lot of evidence to support it. Unlike
God which has...none. My thoughts of a God being complete bullshit however are going to go completely
unchanged.

I've read a lot of your comments. I'm not sure how I'm going to reply to all these comments but I can assure you all that there is not of your comments that I've read that I don't have a response to.

So if you will all be patient, when time permits, I will do my best to reply to many of the comments here.

I do want to say that many of you are making irrational and inconclusive statements including certain ones who are claiming to be Christian. But if you will again be patient I will make the effort to clear things up for you all.

I'm off from work tomorrow and will be spending time with my family so you may not here back from me until Friday. Hopefully the thread will not be deleted as I can see some really successful conclusions being made here. Also I have written some of your names down so if the thread is ever deleted I may be able to contact you directly.

I'd love to hear some responses to my own comments. Many of mine get lost in the swell and never get noticed, which I tend to think means they're ridiculous, but usually I try to put in some effort to not sound like a troll in these sorts of discussions. Maybe that's why they don't get noticed?

Evolution is visible through transitional models and the fact that humans have things like tail bones and whales have leg bones. It takes such a long time but there are transitional models able to be seen all over the world. Germs and cells evolve because they go through so many generations so quickly.

"theory" doesn't mean what you think it does. In the science community a theory requires a strong basis to believe it is true but because it can't be redone in a lab it has to be called a theory. Evolution has a strong foothold to believe it is true while the Adam and Eve story has nothing for us to go on.

Isnt being agnostic the only logical thing? Nobody can know for sure a type of God does or doesnt exist. Might not be a man in the sky but perhaps an intelligent energy/life force or whatever. I mean just to even make evolution possible there has to be SOMETHING pushing it along. I guess thats why I believe more in the idea that everything is just energy.

Science explains how something happens but it doesnt really explain why. Something is propelling all this. Even if shit happens completely randomly.

logic and religion fundamentally have nothing to do with each other. religion in the classic sense involves some kind of faith/belief in a deity or supreme being with little to no evidence. This is why I also consider myself an agnostic. if you're talking pure logic, i.e. working with what you can prove, then it's pretty much impossible to prove/disprove that any such being/deity exists

Purpledino is an idiot. Also I never said there was no proof of evolution. I said that no one has directly seen anything evolve. There is reason to believe in both but some people won't believe on god without seeing him. Seeing fossils is not the same as actually seeing something evolve

well yeah, no atheist can claim 100% that "god is not real" but the fundamental belief of atheism on the most basic level is that there are no deities, that they do not exist. it's still a belief, because it can't be proven or disproven.

but either way, if you have a religious person who claims with certainty that they have witnessed their deity in person, or if you have an atheist who claims objectively that they have proved that no deities/god(s) exist, then mental illness probably has something to do with it.

@AsoTamaki - "Agreed, man. However, you're still following God's Word as it was written in the Bible. Therefore, it is a religion as defined by man. Unless you're following something else? Religion isn't a negative thing."

==a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.====

As you see with the above statement what religion is, most people are deterred by religion by what man or it's leaders of religious "organization" have done and I personally don't blame them one bit because many religions have twisted the Bible teachings for personal gain and the Bible even prophecies that those/these events would occure, and that is why the next Bible prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled will be that God will destroy all false religion will be the start of what the Bible refers to as "The Great Tribulation".

@benkim - "Believe me I am the least closed minded guy you will meet. It is just that all the atheists who argue against religion/Christianity usually have their mind made up. I actually meant to write ignore not avoid so that may have been a little misunderstood."

Even Jesus met great opposition with his preaching work, and yet that did cause him to let. Jesus was looking for what he called the sheeplike ones. Even some who consider themselves as athiest or agnostics are just mis-informed or have come to un-concrete conclusions, so I mentioned many times before, sow your seed as you do not know where it will have success.

@UhhKris - "how are you open minded

your mind is made up on christanity

it just makes you a hypocrite"

I know this wasn't directed at but to come to a conclusion of beliefs is fine, but what is not fine is if the conclusion was came to without reasoning. Even the Bible says to not believe every inspired word but to test the inspired word as to whether it is true. This for me is a great turn on because one's who are confident about themselves can say such things like this.

@ Hyperion - "my parents raised me not to be an idiot so naturally i cant be a christian"

Being a Christian or not being a Christian does not constitute a person an idiot or not. Idiocy come from those who willingly do not learn from there mistakes and those who willingly ignore wise counsel when they subjectively know it is wise.

@Benkim - "Atheists are NOT evil, in fact far from it. Other Christians are usually not happy when I say this but I actually don't believe you need to be a Christian to be a "good" person. I have met a lot of atheists that are actually people of exceptional characters and help the society and what not."

According to the Bible no one is "Good". Not even Jesus would call himself "good". When someone called him a "good teacher", he rebuked the person and said only one person is good which is God. I find it rather funny how people like having their ears tickled with this wording of calling each other "good". "Good" is a very powerful word and encompassing and everyone has their own thoughts on what "good" means to them but again, according to the Bible only God is "good".

"There are evil atheists but there are also evil Christians if you get what I mean."

According to the Bible if a "so-called" Christian is evil according to its standards, this person is not a Christian. We are all imperfect but when you sin according to the Bible's standards, that does not make a person evil for as the Bible says "the righteous one may fall seven times, and he will certainly get up"[Proverbs 24:16]

Anyways, I'm Christian, and it took me a while to convert. Lots of philosophy, science, reading. I'm still not totally convinced, but its theory of ontology and reality seems way more logical than secular ones.

And yeah, atheists' arguments are very predictable (religion was created to enslave people, to explain things we don't know yet, God is an imaginary friend, etc). And many christians are arrogant fanatic dumbfucks.

@Gyromania - "I'm of the belief that we're all born as blank slates. There are no preconceived notions about race, gender, etc., all of that is learned. Without religion in place, who's to say we wouldn't be morally corrupt? Sure we have freedom of choice, and each of us is different, but we're all taught the same values (depending on culture)."

This statement is true, for if you watch young children they show traits of racism or the like. This is taught to them. That is why Jesus said if you are to enter the Kingdom of God[whether earthly or heavenly, but most are earthly] you must be like one of these little ones.

@Trebor17 - "yeah christ is bullshit there are more than one prophet why should one be the right one "

Yes there have been many prophets, but you want to know how you know which are right and which are not? The answer: Your power of reasoning.

@Masochist - "I've also found that if people's argument against religion has anything to do with the people who follow it, it's pretty invalid."

I have been appreciating your post' and I can sense that you are trying to be kind rather than combative. To clarify if a person has a problem with individuals of religion it is indeed "valid" because you can never nullify a persons opinion or perspective, what you can do is reason with them and cushion they concerns by saying I can understand that, then say what is more important, the rules and commands or those who follow the rules and commands and start with a foundation that could grow. But I greatly commend you Masochist and have gained a bit of affection for you so continue on your path but utilize reason more and remember to love your enemies if you ever consider one to be that way, this is the way of Christ, not the way of Satan.

@Gyromania - "Masochist: you echo my sentiments, dude. I love discussing theology with those who approach it with an open mind. Unfortunately some of my friends have that 'the bible is a fairy-tale and people who believe in that are fucking stupid' kind of attitude. Thing is, scholarly atheists - many of their idols, in fact - would likely laugh at them for being so juvenile and ignorant about it. Many atheists I've met claim they don't even need to know anything about theology to know that it's all bullshit, which is patently false. Religion and politics are two things that cannot be argued, but they can certainly be discussed, and knowledge of that which you support is just as important as knowledge of that which you oppose, if you ask me. I myself would say I'm agnostic, if anything, but I'm always receptive to discussing and learning more about these things. "or what atrocities people commit in the name of religion," This is another thing that bothers me. This is a people problem, not a problem with religion. People will always commit atrocities in the name of... well, whatever. It's easy to pin the blame on the religion itself rather than the person's mental health. "

Your above conclusions are excellent and a breath of fresh air to read. As far you mentioning you being "agnostic", I actually understand what you meant by that in relation to yourself. For even a person who studies religions/thoughts/beliefs/concepts/philosophies understands that not all things can be known but according to the Bible man would have enough knowledge to know what God requires of man and is needed to continue living which according the bible is all that matters.

@Tyraelxy - "The only issue I have with religion is that people are using it as an excuse to to horrible things"

I have the same issue but I do not allow the actions of other human beings to affect my pursuit of understand and knowledge into the possibility of love God existing.

@MrElmo - "good point gyromania , but technically it's religion that gives these madmen the power to control since it permits them to abuse people's beliefs by disguising themselves as the new messias ; I can't see why we cannot blame religion and the future despots altogether..."

A person is only as strong as the subjects who give them power. You and I are not forced to give them any credibility or power. You can blame man, you can blame Satan. This is why the next major Bible prophecy, as I mentioned before, will be the destruction of false religion. Do you not believe? Do you not believe the Bible? Many churches have either kept this truth away from it's subjects or many aren't even aware of this all important prophecy. There are many things must first take place before what the Bible calls Armagheddon.

"This is another thing that bothers me. This is a people problem, not a problem with religion. People will always commit atrocities in the name of... well, whatever. It's easy to pin the blame on the religion itself rather than the person's mental health. "

I don't believe the stance that without religion people would just find another excuse therefore deeming the argument null. There are other reasons people fight such as racism or greed that have nothing to do with religion. Regardless if religion existed or not these other factors would continue to exist and all of these issues are at least attempted to be silenced by society. Religion in the wrong hands does create additional unnecessary violence.

With my fleshly desires I could be doing a world of other things but with my spiritual desires I am where I should be.

@MrElmo - "Gyromania : glad we can have a discussion but I would just like to know what could be the use of religion , any educational system built by mankind could teach us the values of peace ,tolerance and respect , therefore , what is the use of religion in such a case ?"

Matthew 24:14; 28:19,20: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and the the end will come.""Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them... teaching them."(How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. )See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16)

1 Corinthians 14:33,40 "God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace... Let all things take place decently and by arrangement."

1 Peter 2:9,17 "But you are 'a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light... Have love for the whole association of brother."(An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.)

Most religious organizations have produced bad fruitage. It is not the fact that groups are organized that is bad. But many have promoted forms of worship that are based on false teachings and are largely ritualistic instread of providing genuine spiritual guidance; they have been misused to control the lives of people for selfish objectives; they have been overly concerned with money collections and ornate houses of worship instead of spiritual values; their members are often hypocritical. Obviously no one who loves righteousness would want to belong to such an organization. But true religion is a refreshing contrast to all of that. Nevertheless, to fulfill the Bible's requirements, it must be organized.

1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."(Such unity would never be achieved if the individuals did not meet together, benefit from the same spiritual feeding program, and respect the agency through which such instruction was provided.(See also John 17:20,21 if you're interested.)

@Birthrite: legitimate question. I was thinking about 'belief' and how it is a term that can be used quite loosely. Like how the bible says you can only find salvation through Jesus, yet if you claim to be a Christian and don't follow or ignore entirely his teachings then I wouldn't say you are working through him.

Like if one were to say "save money through Wal-mart" That doesn't mean acknowledge Wal-Mart exists then continue doing whatever you want and you'll save money that means you have to actually spend money, use it as a guide or a tool etc.

Could belief in Christ mean much more than acknowledgement rather than actual exertion (or least attempt) of his teachings?

@Tyraelxy - "I'd love to have some faith but humanity has made me lose all my faith a long time ago"

Perhaps you feel that way at the moment as I felt that way through many intervals in my life as well. It's to focus on something worthy when the desires of the flesh are so rampant and easy to fulfill nowadays. I pray that in perhaps in time God will open up things to you my brother. For remember, it is God who draws those to him, not vice versa. John 6:44 "No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him." But, also see James 4:8 "Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you." So if you pray earnestly to God and search for him, he WILL reveal himself to you and build the faith within yourself that you say you are lacking.

@MrElmo - "Well actually no ,I'me affraid faith is a waist of time for me, when you die, you die and that's it. nobody is going to help you if you call him , no invisible man in the sky, It's just a loss of useful time to have faith , why spend your time hoping and praying when you could actually do something to make the world better before you turn to smithereens? So on this note I'me affraid I don't like faith ,for it is a loss of what could be constructive time . about the law and religion , I have never seen a man get a smaller emprisonnement by simply saying god told me to..... "

Faith is the Assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld - Hebrews 11:1. True faith is not credulity, that is, a readiness to believe something without sound evidence of just because a person wants it to be so. Genuine faith requires basic or fundamental knowledge, acquaintance with evidence, as well as heartfelt appreciation of what that evidence indicates. Thus, althought it is impossible to have real faith without accurate knowledge, the Bible says that it is "with the heart" that one exercises faith. -Romans 10:10. The bible says people are declared righteous by there faith but at the same time it also says faith is dead without works.

Tell me, what do you find unclear about the Bible and I will attempt to make it clear for you, or, at least clearer than anything else that you've considered.

@AnarchistFish - "I fucking hate discussions on religion. There's no way anyone can get their point across even if it's sensible"

I have had much success in this fashion, even on this site.

@MrElmo - "anarchistfish: yep I agree , always pissed me off to write on the internet , plus the truth is that these kinds of debates don't have much use since nobody will change his mind in the end . Oh well I'll just go back and play MGS3 with a cup of tea now"

How do you know that someone didn't change their mind? This is not info that you can, nor does it matter whether you do or not unless it strengthens your own resolve. What matters is that persons personal thoughts and what they may have gained from they have read with their power of reasonings. So again sow your seed as you do not know where it will success. But sow with a view to the spirit and with reasonableness.

@FourthReich - "mr elmo why would i waste my time trying to make the world a better place? it that the purpose of existence? i have no faith nor hope that it will ever improve or me doing anything will make it imporve so instead i do nothing because nothing is intended for me in life or death. when did you die by the way because it seems like you know an awful lot about death?"

Man cannot make the world a better place. According to the Bible only God can. The purpose of the preaching work as described in the Bible is for people to gain an understanding of God's requirements and what he has in store for people in the future. Even if the world tried their best to follow the laws of what whoever considers upright or what the Bible says it would not solve the worlds problems, according to the Bible. In fact, even the Bible says "it does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his own step."

"The definition I providing was the one according to the Bible, again found at Hebrews 11:1 as I mentioned before." the translation from hebrew was probably fucked up and the definition in the bible you mentioned probably doesn't even match up to the original authors definition.

yeah I've taken a few theology courses in college and some of it is really interesting and though I'm really dumb when it comes to the stuff I've had some really amazing professors that know their shit-- people whose ideas I have a lot of respect for and are generally very well-spoken and intelligent

still, we would be going through things like the legitimacy of the trinity in Christology class and talking about all the Councils (Nicea, Constantinople, Chalcedon, etc.) that led to how we're allowed to talk about this Jesus guy and I would lightly bring up some of the inherent contradictions in the notion of the Trinity and my Professor on more than one occasion would just eventually have to say "well that would make sense logically, but we can't say that because we must follow the path that Scripture allows" or whatever and I could just be like "oh ok"

in short: yeah faith in Christ and the Trinity doesn't make any sense based on reason and logic, hence the word "faith" ... anything else is just delving further into delusion

@Benkim - "Maybe you are unlike me who has idealism so hardwired and is such a big part of me that there is no way I can just say I will live a life of pleasuring myself(LOL) and thats it! Trust me I tried once, when I had lost faith in humanity but that only made me sink into some serious angst. A hedonistic lifestyle is just not for me."

I am glad you have come to this conclusion and that you have showed bravery to persist in something that makes so much more sense.

@Coliin - "There is no god, there is no existence, everything is how you perceive it to be."

Do you have any idea how contradictory you statement is? So if I percieve that there is a God and that there is existence than what you just said is pointless.

@Colliiin - "Did you forget that man wrote the bible?"

Physically yes but do you know who it was inspired by and who fully controlled what is contained in it according to the Bible? Read 2Timothy 3:16,17. Would you like me to go deeper with this?

@Thisismyalt - your reasoning seems to be accurate. I wish contact you directly in the near future so we can reason together my brother.

@Hitletisthebest - "as for me needing proof, i dont. proving god doesnt exist is impossible, just like its impossible to prove santa doesnt exist. "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." you cant just come up to people and say "god exists," and then when they ask for proof say "well you cant prove hes not real, so ha!" evidence, or go suck a dick."

Do you see the wind? But how do you know it's there?

@KJSwantko - "I'm a committed follower of Christ. I read the Bible, I do what it says. I leave out the holier-than-thou judging of others, pointless rituals, etc that many religious folk feel obligated to do. So I read, I pray, then I go thrash."

You say you do what the Bible says, but when you mentioned what you do you did not mention preaching.

@Hitleristhebest - "yeah, hes just spewing a bunch of dumb bible shit when its all completely irrelevant because no evidence"

Again, how do you know the wind is there?

@ Funeralopolis - "I may not be Eternium but the bible is full of bad teachings. The old testament especially which condemns torture and murder of people who believe otherwise, or are 'sinful'.

The bible teachs you that you are born scum and undeserving of grace for your natural inclinations that you have no control over such as your desire for pride, and libido. It teaches you to feel sorry and apologize for actions which are of no harm to anyone.

The old testament encourages slaves and is never discredited in the new testament, say what you will but people used this as an excuse to justify slavery for hundreds of years.

The old testament treats women like objects, and even in Timothy 1 it is said that women are to be subordinate to men and there are many fundies who follow this true to this day."

A dollar is not whole without the other 50cents. Your comments have shown that you descredit the all important quality of humility. As far as slaves and women do you not read of the provisions God made for slaves so that they were not ill-treated? Did you not read that a husband should treat his wife as himself? Your reasoning is sadly terrible. Do I need to ellaborate more or do you believe me?

STORM IS COPY AND PASTING THE SAME LINE OVER AND OVER LOOK HOW FUNNY HE CAN BE HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

@Funeralopolis - "What I hate about Christianity is that nobody acts like a true Christian. How can you say you are a follower of Christ when you follow absolutely none of his dogma? I don't see people giving up their worldly possessions, and forgiving their enemies: yet they claim to be followers of this way of life. Either we have to admit that Jesus was just as greedy as us or that he preached a selfless lifestyle and we just don't feel like obeying him. "

"Hate" is a powerful word but I would say that I agree with disliking those who claim to be Christian but put forth no effort but it is God who will set things straight, not myself. And say Jesus was greedy is again your own selfish thoughts as you have not one logical thing you can say about Jesus' lifestyle that even resembles greed. And yes everyone has their own freewill and God does not want people to forcefully serve him.

@TheDjehuty - "I wonder how many people are aware that Jesus wasn't a fan of those who attended church and put others down. Jesus tended to those in real need, the homeless, the poor, etc. "

You are only partially correct. Why wouldn't Jesus be a fan of those who attended a Bible meeting? Even he went to the synagogues to teach and was regularly there. Perhaps you meant to say he wasn't a fan of the synagogues that taught false things. This would be true. But yes he wasn't a fan of those who put others down and the rest of what you said was true.

@ADTRSUX - "I am a Christian, but it's not something that I throw at people if they dont want to hear it. I will pray for them, but if they are not willing, that is their decision. However, if they are willing, I will do my best to share the love of God to them."

Now remember preaching is not throwing it at them. If they say they are not interested and you say thank you for your time and walk away this is not throwing it at them because you respected their decision. But how are you to know if they are willing if you do not first approach them?

Nice maybe this thread will die cuz of how annoying my break will be to read with.

Actually it should be LONGERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

OK EVERYONE I AM GLAD TO SAY THAT MY WORK ON THIS THREAD IS DONE. FEEL FREE TO READ ALL MY PAST COMMENTS.

I AM ALSO GLAD TO SAY THAT I HAVE A TOTAL OF 22 NAMES OF USERS ON THIS LIST THAT I WILL BE CONTACTING DIRECTLY FOR FURTHER DISCUSSION. IF YOU ARE EVER NOT INTERESTED DON'T BE AFRAID TO TELL ME AND I WILL RESPECT YOUR PRESENT DECISIONS.

AND YES "JDENNIS31" YOU ARE ON MY LIST BROTHER. EVERYONE HAVE A GOOD REST OF YOUR DAYS AND WEEKENDS AND THANKS FOR THOSE WHO APPROACHED THIS LIST WITH AN OPEN HEART AND MIND. AGAIN, I LOVE YOU ALL AND LOOK FORWARD TO MY FUTURE CONVERSATIONS WITH YOU.

OK EVERYONE I AM GLAD TO SAY THAT MY WORK ON THIS THREAD IS DONE. FEEL FREE TO READ ALL MY PAST COMMENTS.

I AM ALSO GLAD TO SAY THAT I HAVE A TOTAL OF 22 NAMES OF USERS ON THIS LIST THAT I WILL BE CONTACTING DIRECTLY FOR FURTHER DISCUSSION. IF YOU ARE EVER NOT INTERESTED DON'T BE AFRAID TO TELL ME AND I WILL RESPECT YOUR PRESENT DECISIONS.

AND YES "JDENNIS31" YOU ARE ON MY LIST BROTHER. EVERYONE HAVE A GOOD REST OF YOUR DAYS AND WEEKENDS AND THANKS FOR THOSE WHO APPROACHED THIS LIST WITH AN OPEN HEART AND MIND. AGAIN, I LOVE YOU ALL AND LOOK FORWARD TO MY FUTURE CONVERSATIONS WITH YOU.

OK EVERYONE I AM GLAD TO SAY THAT MY WORK ON THIS THREAD IS DONE. FEEL FREE TO READ ALL MY PAST COMMENTS.

I AM ALSO GLAD TO SAY THAT I HAVE A TOTAL OF 22 NAMES OF USERS ON THIS LIST THAT I WILL BE CONTACTING DIRECTLY FOR FURTHER DISCUSSION. IF YOU ARE EVER NOT INTERESTED DON'T BE AFRAID TO TELL ME AND I WILL RESPECT YOUR PRESENT DECISIONS.

AND YES "JDENNIS31" YOU ARE ON MY LIST BROTHER. EVERYONE HAVE A GOOD REST OF YOUR DAYS AND WEEKENDS AND THANKS FOR THOSE WHO APPROACHED THIS LIST WITH AN OPEN HEART AND MIND. AGAIN, I LOVE YOU ALL AND LOOK FORWARD TO MY FUTURE CONVERSATIONS WITH YOU.