On Ethics

How could he do this? That’s so dishonest! That’s cheating! Unethical and morally wrong! Scummy! Why would one of the best need to resort to this? Lacks integrity. Awful character. Unfair advantage.

Hey everybody. I intended this week’s article to be the conclusion to my article mini-series that investigated whether or not archetypes produce skillful competition, but in light of recent events I have decided to postpone that until next week in order to have a discussion on ethics. This past weekend at the ARGCS in Fort Lauderdale I played Nekroz with the intention of gaining an advantage in the mirror by offering for my opponent and I both to side out a Djinn and then siding in a second copy. Was this unethical? Lots of people believe that it was, but allow me to explain why I disagree.

Cheating?

The first question that comes to most people’s mind asks whether or not doing this is cheating?

“There's nothing in the policy documents forbidding these kinds of actions. Your opponent is never obligated to give you any valid information on things that are not Public Knowledge, and you should not think that they will.”

- Julia Hedberg

This extends further than just to what I did. I offered to side out “a Djinn,” fully knowing that they would take it to mean that Djinn would not be in our decks. While I specified a singular amount, it is still not illegal to ask to take out “all Djinn” and just not do it.

This is not a grey area. The answer is no, it is not cheating. It doesn’t break any rules. This isn’t the end of the discussion though; something being legal doesn’t necessarily mean that it isn’t morally wrong. Slavery was legal for hundreds of years, but it being legal does not stop it from being wrong.

The Root of the “Gentleman’s Agreement”

Given the situation, you may find it ironic that I was the one who originally proposed the “gentleman’s agreement.” I came up with the idea of asking both players to side out a particular card in the September 2013 Dragon Ruler format. The idea quickly became widely accepted and was used with Return From the Different Dimension and Sixth Sense that format and continued to be used with future cards, such as Ojama Trio in the Burning Abyss mirror, that take the element of skill out of the game as they heavily favored whoever was fortunate enough to draw one of them. Does it not seem wrong to have no intention of fulfilling what I knew I was implying when I offered to side out a Djinn?

Why do you think I offered to side out Return From the Different Dimension? It may seem like it was to make the game more “fair.” I’m sorry to let you down, but that wasn’t the reason. I offered to side it out for the sole reason that I’d be more likely to win the game if my opponent couldn’t draw Return to outright win. The technical play aspect of the game was made more skillful, which in turn favored me in most cases.

As I talked about in my last article where I defined what skill actually is, technical play is only one way to gain an edge over your opponent. Additionally, you can have a better deck than your opponent or utilize mind games to gain the upper hand. You can read the article here.

Players don’t have any intention of making the game fairer. They shouldn’t either; that’s Konami’s job. If anything, a player’s job is the exact opposite. Why would any player who wants to win the tournament want to give his opponent a fair shot where either player is equally likely to win? You’re certainly not likely to win any tournaments sitting down with a 50:50 chance in every match. It is a player’s job to maximize their chance to win and minimize their opponent’s chance to win by taking legal advantages in each aspect of competition, if they intend to win.

I remember having a conversation with Billy Brake at the first ARGCS in Fort Worth, where I discussed offering to side out Return if we were to play. He told me that if we did play, that he would refuse my offer, because my deck was better than his and he’d be more likely to win if we kept it in. He wanted to make technical play less fair as a means of countering the advantage I had through deckbuilding.

Do you think technical play produces fair conditions? How fair is a match where I have practiced 40 hours every week and my opponent goes to locals a couple times a week? Are we on even ground? Certainly not. Anyone who has practiced a significant amount more is favored to win over an opponent with considerably less experience, as they are sure to know the deck’s plays and matchups better. Why do I practice this much? To give me an advantage, not make the game fairer.

What about deckbuilding? Does it produce fair conditions? Why do you think people choose to play the best deck? It’s because that deck has an advantage over the other decks in the field. If I play Nekroz and my opponent plays Crystal Beasts, we aren’t on a level playing field. I’m certainly not obligated to play an inferior deck because you chose to in order to make the game fairer.

It extends beyond this. Let’s look at Vanity’s Emptiness. This is a card that I don’t think should be allowed in tournament play. It doesn’t allow the opponent to play the game unless they draw an out and it is the definition of unfair. Does that mean I am obligated to not use the card in my own decks? As a matter of fact, I won a National Championship by being one of the first to acknowledge that using Vanity’s Emptiness gave me an unfair advantage and it seems that few people would be willing to argue that doing so violates some sort of ethical code. So I ask, what is the difference between unfair deckbuilding strategies and what I did with Djinn?

Slippery Slope

Mind games, or deceiving your opponent and being able to determine when they are attempting to deceive you, is the third aspect of competition. Bluffing is a widely accepted practice that is used to gain an advantage.

“I have Mirror Force set.” It is perfectly legal and acceptable to say this to your opponent, whether or not you actually have Mirror Force set. If you don’t have Mirror Force set, you are lying to your opponent to gain an advantage. That’s okay, but this isn’t? If you say this is illegal, how are you going to say bluffing is legal at all? Where is the line between the two? That’s certainly a slippery slope.

Where the Responsibility Lies

*Pun intended*

According to the rules, both lying to your opponent about having Mirror Force set and lying to your opponent about how you intend to side deck are legal. The rules of the game are exactly where the line between what is okay and what is not okay must be. When you enter a tournament, you are entering into an agreement to uphold the rules of the tournament and nothing more.

Taking every advantage within these rules is exactly the difference between a good player and everyone else.

Johnny Li actually wrote to David Sirlin, the author of Playing to Win and someone who has made a career on the idea of competition, to get his opinion on this situation. Here is an excerpt from his response:

“Unsportsmanlike is a bad word, basically. Patriotic sounds like it means one thing, then it gets applied to "the Patriot Act" and "Patriot Missiles" which are both arguably antithetical to what the US should be about. Unsportsmanlike is practically always hijacked to mean some perverted thing, some way to penalize players for faults of other people.

That player did a tournament-legal move that increases his chance to win. I wouldn't call that unsportsmanlike. More like "what his incentive actually is." Of course he should do that, and of course the rules are flawed precisely because they allow it. When you create a button that says "press this for an advantage" then someone presses it for an advantage, you don't get to call that unsportsmanlike. If you want to not like the guy or not think he's nice, or see him as a villain, that's fine, but the one thing he definitely is is "playing to win using tournament legal means" which is pretty damn sportsmanlike. More like a wolf amongst the sheep who are house ruling things and expecting it to go well. I'd give him a pat on the back for proving we need to fix our rules, lol.

You really really need a solid rule to enforce this card removal thing, if it is to exist at all. And I still think it probably shouldn't be allowed anyway, even if some rule could be devised. It sounds like a "for fun" thing more than something for actual tournament play. But I can't say for sure because I don't know the specifics.”

The problem isn’t that I lied. Lying is a part of the game. If you were unaware of this, allow me to welcome you to competitive play. The underlying problem is that there are cards that players agree are unfair enough to justify taking out of their decks, so long as the opponent is willing to do the same. Djinn, Vanity’s Emptiness, Return, and so on are cards that should not be in the game. It is the competitive player’s responsibility to take every legal advantage and to find ways to abuse them while they are legal, but it is Konami’s responsibility to make them illegal so that we may avoid this situation altogether.

I hope you all will agree with me that lying about side decking is no more wrong than using Vanity’s Emptiness in your deck, despite thinking it should not be allowed in the game. Taking legal advantages over your opponent is what makes someone a good player; it doesn’t make them unethical.

Discussion

You do realize that if you’d shown up in the series, you would have been that asshole who Yugi beats by smashing their Djinn combo into tiny pieces and then Penalty Gaming them to have their cards eternally shuffling?

Boltizar

“He wanted to make technical play less fair as a means of countering the advantage I had through deckbuilding.”

That’s a scrub mentality.

UNKNOWN

Yes, you didn’t cheat, but what you did was way beyond ethics and morals. You deserved to lose and deserve all of hatred you are receiving right now. I am even surprised, have you no shame? You are even writing an article about ethics, which you lacked at that time and are lacking right now.

Travis Grooms

It’s a shame that he had to write an article to “justify” his actions. Everyone, including Pat, agrees that he is a liar for deceiving his opponent. It was a legal advantage, but it was not a fair advantage. Why should he top after manipulating the system? I guess a move like that is utilized when skill is lacking. Yes, he wins many events, but he does not win them all and certainly did not win this one. If a player lies to the opponent for an advantage in the game, is he skillful? Maybe. But why would anyone want to play with someone who does this? The game is nothing without the players, and these antics are what turn people away from the game. Pat, for the last few formats at least, has been a “face” of the game, and by acting out in a significant event, it makes the entire system look bad. I admired his ability as a deckbuilder as well as his work ethic, but leaving the opponent in the dark on a card choice purposefully rules out both deckbuilding skill and the many hours one dedicates to practice. What was the point if you want to win with that? It is baffling.

Lewis

The sad thing is that Hoban really genuinely does believe that this is acceptable. Going into the event he knew full well that people would find out he’d done this and that they’d react poorly. But he chose to do it anyway because he really believes that it doesn’t matter. It just seems stupid to me.

He must have known that after pulling it off once everyone at the event would find out he was doing it. He could only have at BEST pulled it off successfully in 1 duel in 1 match. That extremely marginal advantage was worth it to him. It’s ridiculous.

These assumptions that Hoban makes that winning is the only goal are just stupid. If you want to win you must want something else. Perhaps you want to win to earn others respect. Well, he had that, and now he’s lost a great deal of it. Or perhaps you want to win in order to feel a since of personal accomplishment, something to feel proud of. Making everyone hate you should not make you feel proud.

I have thrown games before at big tournaments because I refuse to be that guy whose just unsportsmanlike. It would be so easy to get a game win if your opponent hasn’t shuffled in a banished card from the previous game, or if you notice they have a slightly dodgy (and clearly not deliberately so) sleeve. But I don’t do it, and I won’t ever do it. If I’m going to win I want to do so because I won every game by beating my opponent when they were at their best.

Playing to win in yugioh is important.

But the reason you play to win isn’t for the prize you get if you win or the trophy that says you won.

You play to win because you want to know that you were the best that day, and you beat the best that day.

Patick Hoban was not the best that day.

ShadyG

You can use logic to justify many things. Slavery (as you pointed out), racism, violence, rape culture,environmental disrespect, etc etc… Guess what? A lot of the folks who got those systems of power running did not break the rules.

S.M.

The problem I see is that you said in the past (specifically in your
article about when to allow take backs) that you didn’t want to win via
unfair means.
What you say is true but if your opponent drops a
shaddoll falco on their mat and you hold them to having normal summoned
it then you would be giving yourself an advantage. Is there a rule
against it? No. In fact the rules are in your favor.
In fact if your
opponent wants to go back on having forgot to add back a card with
Construct and you allow them you’re actively letting them break the
rules and gain an advantage. But you yourself said you would let them.
And I agree with that.
Winning is easy if you trick your opponent.
And if you do win by doing so you can’t claim to be better than them. So
by deceiving your way to victory you become undeserving of the title “victor”.
You gain nothing from the experience.
You gain nothing from your friends/supporters.
You gain no respect.
All you gain is a box of cards you already have and an over sized mouse pad.

Mayor Hundred

Hoban: concerned with his legacy as a PLAYER OF CHILDREN’S GAMES

Normal people: concerned with their legacy as a PERSON

Your entire argument is that you didn’t do anything outside the rules of the game, and you are not a dirty player. Agreed.

But thank you for not attempting to defend your actions with regard to not being fucking fat piece of acne-riddled shit. On an unrelated note, you will probably die a virgin. Have fun with that.

P.S. You play Yugioh 40 hours a week? How do you find time for that, between school and all that masturbating?

Trevor Bolton

theres a major flaw in your rftdd comparison. at the time, that card was limited so unlike djinn you couldnt go siding another copy of it. i will agree that siding pure luck cards like that out will favor the more skilled player to win the game. by just swapping one djinn for another you do not remove your “luck” card while your opponent does. doing so only admits to me that you have already realized you have no skill in playing that match. ethical does NOT mean the same thing as legal. bluffing has always been in cards game yes, but calling it lying just for use of a stronger word and saying, for example, a set card is mirror force instead of it being something useless that it is is also not the same as verbally agreeing to no using a card and then just using it anyways even if it is a different copy.

Dreadkaiser

Can’t exactly say it was honest but the other player was an idiot for believing what he was told…..

Guest

As a judge, if I personally see this type of behavior as how it is generally described here, I would issue the player a UC-Minor – Warning (upon investigation, of course). This sort of behavior is very much unsportsmanlike-like conduct, even if it is legal. Part of the game is indeed winning, however, there is a fine balance between means and ends.

Repetition of this behavior can lead to upgrades in penalties, including Game Loss and disqualification.

Jordan Hansen

Alright, to start off, I am a 23 year ol African American male who has been in the competitive yugioh scene off and on for the past eight years of my life, and I have played the game since it Xmas out in America. I agree with Hogan 100% . He may not have won the match or topped the event, but he tried using any and all means giving to him by the game and tournament structure in question. And that is why Hoban is one of the best, it’s why he has so many tops, and it’s why he will continue to top. He didn’t break a rule, he exploited a flaw in competitive gameplay, he was willing to do what it takes to win. If you aren’t willing to do what it takes you won’t win against someone who is most of the time. Plain and simple, go hard or go home. And please stop being offended over an analogy….

Selena Keller

? u cant be that ignorant! maybe he did exploit a flaw in the rules, but u have to remember its a GAME. HE manipulated his opponent to beat him at a card GAME. ITS NOT like he’s competing for a job, or career job, do or die situation. HE’S RISKING his reputation, moral/ethic standards, and respect of those who he had to beat a guy at a card game? you cant seriously think after all that has happen he would go back and do it again? i do clearly see your POINT ABOUT DOING EVERYTHING TO win, but to put that much effort and time to win at a card game. seriously look back at the situation from the perspective of a father . say he was your son and u saw that he did that what would u really think. i can tell u one thing if my son did something like that to get ahead in A CARD GAME. then yea hes fucked up

Constantine Varelas

Hoban did nothing wrong. I have lost no respect for him. I would trust what he says basically not at all anymore if I were to play him again, but I still respect him as a player.

allen pearce

I get that this isn’t cheating per say, but why is this not rule sharking?

Why are you being allowed to assume the role of both perpetrator and judge? Fuck that. You do not get to decide the how the community should respond to your actions.

Your integrity as a sponsored ARG member is now called into question. Everyone who’s heard the name Hoban will now here the word stacker, or cheater, or that guy that breaks his vocal agreements.

-You are a liar.
-What you did is not comparable to bluffing.
-Your reputation amounts to nothing anymore.
-A.R.G. should not sponsor people like you who think cunning should rank as high as a fair duel.
-You broke the expensive trust-vase and now you’re trying to cover it up before the community gets home.

Personally, I think sponsored ARG members need to hold hold themselves to higher standard than that of a deck stacker.

Also, You do NOT get to compare Slavery to a fat white cis male’s loss of grace and dignity. Get off your moral high horse that you have no business on. You don’t speak for black people like me, you do not speak for slaves, and the very idea that structural racism is comparable to you cheating is disgusting.

Constantine Varelas

You should not generalize. I still respect Hoban and his skills at the game, as do many people I know. Get off of your righteous high horse.

Entaro

Anyone with half a brain knows that you arent a cheater and its not cheating.

Those same people also know you are a scumbag. When you value a card game over your own personal integrity and then try to justify it, you are only fooling yourself. When beating your opponent for “rep” matters more than the rep you get from being an honest and fair player then you have a problem.

And now we all know you for the type of worm that you are. Good or bad player, cheating or not, you are a liar. That is the type of man you are. A liar.

Constantine Varelas

I just want to put it out there that I support what Hoban did. I do not personally approve, I do think it was deception, I would not do it myself. I do not think that any of that matters. It was legal, and I would expect any opponent I was playing against to have done something similar. There were people at YCS Prague doing this. I would have entered the tournament with the expectation that people would do it to me. I think that the Djinn lock should not be played at all, I feel that if. Hoban really wanted a competitive edge,he would have been better without the lock anyway, but it was totally legal.

bloedzuiger

“That player did a tournament-legal move that increases his chance to win.”
Except you lost.

Michel Grüner

It is a shame for someone calling himself a ‘good player’ to do those kind of things. Even more it’s an unacceptable behaviour.

vorg12

at least he isn’t actually a savage cheater like you LOL

Rose Aren

did this motherfucker really compare slavery and cheating in a card game

like I always knew in my gut not to trust Hoban, but now…

Kuma

That’s an unfair cheating, but it is normal for Hoban. Policy or not, sportman or not, he was a cheater buffed by ARG from the start. just remember how he xyz summon on the feature match with a number 30 on his field, noone canceled the game in live. ARG buffed cheater that’s all.

vorg12

watch you don’t cut yourself on this article

dwad

what you did is just a shame, not a cheat.

ライトロード

” Slavery was legal for hundreds of years, but it being legal does not stop it from being wrong.”

Am I the only one that sees a problem with that analogy? Also, the gentleman’s agreement in question is technically collusion, and against tournament policy. Had it been a KDE-US event, the appropriate penalty would have been issued to both parties. The fact that he pulled a fast one like that is just poor sportsmanship. I hope that ARG will address this issue, and ensure it doesn’t happen again, because that kind of behavior is unacceptable.

Guest

Collusion in the tournament policy refers to deciding upon the whole result of the game or match. It’s a stretch for most people to DQ out of this sort of agreement.

ライトロード

People have been DQ’d for less.

Xiammes

It isn’t cheating, but it is a scumbag thing to do, if I was in ARG management I’d have your head. A complete lack of professionalism for someone that they are sponsoring. Your not even playing the villain role correctly, your trying to make what you did seem not as bad.

Personally if I was you, I’d drop the charade and go full on “yeah I’m a dick, what you gonna do about it”.

fireky3

When you get them to side out their djinns

argrepeatingbuyer

#boycottARG

Zabdiel Rodriguez

That ARG even printed this article shows a complete and total lack of credibility. In no way, shape, or form was what Hoban did “smart” or “strategic”. It was simply cheating, straight and simple. People who use such disgusting and underhanded tactics to win should not be lauded for their unethical behavior. They should be reprimanded to send a message to the community. Games should be decided by skill, not by malevolent use of deception. I respect the ARG scene, its done a lot for competitive yugioh. Something Konami hasn’t cared to do. But you have to reprimand behavior like this, even if its from one of your top players. if not it simply undermines the events. Players need to have confidence in ARG circuits for them to be considered the premier events in competitive yugioh. Hoban should be reprimanded.

Cody

seriously who the hell cares. you wasted your precious time writing a pointless article.

Ryan Schmid

Pat Hoban isa great player. he had a strategy and lets face it even if it was underhanded it worked.

MeteorACDC

it worked so well that he didn’t top 😉

Ryan Schmid

My point is Hoban is one of the Best Players in the game hes won and topped many events. most of the masses flock around what he builds. case and point. you got to treat yugioh/duel monsters like a battle if you trust your enemy they will defeat you

Anthony

he got results, but his means were douchey and everyone is disappointed

Aaron

I miss when the idols of the game were guys like Billy. He was a cool guy who always gave out insightful advice and was respected by the community for his attitude and conduct. When the face of your game turns out to be dishonest and deceitful, you shouldn’t be surprised when people get upset, no matter what semantic arguments they employ to make it seem right.

Brandon Smith

He didn’t create the Gentleman’s agreement it is in a lot of games, usually whenever a format is broken and needs to be fixed and it is not limited to taking out a single card. This is pretty low of Hoban honestly, and just because everyone in the world says it is legal and that it is o.k. to trick mislead or deceive someone using underhanded tricks it is not morally correct and from someone with such a deep gaming background he possibly tainted his entire career with this stunt. Will he go down in history as the re-innovator or Upstart Goblin, one of the best Yugioh players in the game or the creator of the Hoban advantage. Who knows however please know that which ever way his legacy goes it will be ultimately his decision what people think.

Robby Hinch

TL;DR It’s okay to be a complete dickwad as long as you stay within the Starter Deck’s rule book.

DreZato Tim-Simpson Asmodeus

this really isn’t ok man exploiting a loop-hole because the creators of the game didn’t think anyone would be such an asshole. if you propose an agreement you follow it out of pride and respect, this is basic etiquette.

Sun Tzu

Thus, what is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy’s strategy.

Guest

You play 40 hours a week? You sir have no life!

Chris Del Castillo

So wait you are trying to defend your excuse of a gentlemens agreement by saying “hey let’s have a good duel by siding out of djinns” and then side it in…..that already shows terrible sportsman ship since no matter how you try to spin it.

Honestly the moment you said it all and sided it, showed how dirty you can be and while it’s part of the game to some people, it also makes yourself and anyone working with you look bad because it says “hey I will lie, or use any means to win.”

You are a really good duelist, but stuff like that just makes everyone else look bad, including the game especially when come to light.

Blu_Switch

I think the worst part, the part that you conveniently left out, is even after doing all that and receiving all the backlash from it afterwards you STILL managed to lose that game and then didn’t even top the event

Hindsight would say that it was most likely not worth ruining your reputation over

ShadyG

I don’t think that part is relevent, topping would not justify anything.

bundleo stixx

Lel trying to back up your scrub tactics with walls of texts. Actions speak louder than words, you did a scumbag move. All of the nice words long ranting doesn’t change that you played like a scumbag. Its like coating fecal matter with gold paint saying its gold nuggets, but they are just poo nuggets and that’s what you are hoban a small, smelly, corn encrusted, scummy poo nugget.

Andy cage

shame on you hobban

masterfox72

Technically this mutual agreement falls under the collusion clause of Konami policy and both players should receive a game loss.

whatareyoutalkingabout

…no it doesnt.

Jordan

Konami considers collusion to be when both players work together to achieve a mutually agreed outcome of the match such as(but not limited to): selling a win, playing a different game for the win, rolling a die for the win, intentionally drawing, etc.

Obviously, collusion isn’t allowed because it’s a direct alteration the rules of the game and can lead to tournaments in which the players who top aren’t the ones who are necessarily the best at the YGO trading card game, but rather the ones who have the most money, got lucky with die roles, have the most friends etc.

What Hoban (and others who’ve made these gentleman agreements in the past) did isn’t considered collusion, because the rules of the game are not being altered and thus the winner of the match is still supposedly the “better” player. There is nothing against the rules that forbid players from siding out specific cards and furthermore, if Hoban was able to say a few words (without threatening or intimidating) which lead to his opponent voluntarily choosing to make subobtimal decisions during the match, then that isn’t collusion.

It might be considered unethical, unsportsmanlike, and display lack of integrity but it isn’t collusion.

TSC225

In your logic, win is everything, and you lost even you choose to use”some next level of gameplay”
Good job, fat ass.
Play hard or go home, and you go home with shame.

TSC225

You still lose lol, how ashamed mother fucker.
Shark Punching Center now have another job to do — Punch sharks like you ! ! !

MeteorACDC

Also you really shouldn’t project this as something that happens in all competitive play. If you tried this garbage in MtG you’d be thrown on your fat ass.

Probably why I never see you at a GP or PTQ. Because you’d never be able to pull this.

Xavier

lying about private knowledge is completely legal in MTG

MeteorACDC

Yugioh sharking – like slavery but not so much. How up your own ass are you, really.

Alex

Never mind that Julia also stated that she did not respect this type of play. How does it feel, Hoban, to have ruined the Gentleman’s Rule (Or as you would put it, “Hoban Advantage”) for yourself and others and not even get a top out of it?

MeteorACDC

How can he ruin the Gentleman’s Agreement when he pretty much says that he created it?

:^)

Alex

Ruin as in “No one will ever agree to it again”

DreZato Tim-Simpson Asmodeus

he didn’t create it, he was just the first person with the balls to try it in an event. the Gentleman’s Agreement in competition has always been around that’s why sports like golf have handicaps to give less experienced players a fairer game

cj

You were sneaky and underhanded to have a fair advantage against your opponent and you still lost. Did you learn anything? I don’t think so, will you do it again? Probably. Will people still kiss your ass? More than likely.