Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues - On Kickstarter

March 9th, 2013, 03:44

Wow, I'm not even sure where to start with this.

I am actually sort of bummed out now. I was hoping for some decent 'rah-rah' comradery on Richard's announcement but its just such a strange reaction. Almost like everyone is upset. It's been compared to World of Warcraft?! Also to a Polish game that I guarantee you is so far off Richard's radar….

I just…sigh… you win again internets.

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"For it is the Doom of men that they forget" - MerlinQuestLord

Originally Posted by rune_74
Wow, I'm not even sure where to start with this. He is not trying to copy mount and blade(not even sure how this is even relevant). He is trying to make the next version of the ultimas without actually owning the ip. For the record I barely see mount and blade as an rpg, more of a strategic medieval combat simulator.

Many of the ideas for the new game were in the older games, now just with modern tech being able to back them up. I think the potential for what he wants to do with the social side, meaning back to what social is not what zynga made it to be, is very interesting. So many of todays rpg's owe their existance to ultima, if anything mount and blade borrowed a few ideas, but forgot to tack the role playing part.

Isometric view turning to 3rd person view on entering villages, 'be what you want', building houses .. etc. Sounds very Mount and Blade to me, but ofcourse without the factions, living, not hero centred world, and choices and consequences. Moreover, there as as much rpg and choice and consequence in Mount and Blade as what is described on the Kickstarter page if not more actually.

One thing that mount and blade don't have (which fits the historical theme of the game) is magic.

Originally Posted by SpoonFULL
Isometric view turning to 3rd person view on entering villages, 'be what you want', building houses .. etc. Sounds very Mount and Blade to me, but ofcourse without the factions, living, not hero centred world, and choices and consequences. Moreover, there as as much rpg and choice and consequence in Mount and Blade as what is described on the Kickstarter page if not more actually.

One thing that mount and blade don't have (which fits the historical theme of the game) is magic.

I'm afraid I cannot help you understand t he history behind the person making this game, if you think he is copying mount and blade.

"be what you want" in crpg's owes everything to the ultima games. I'm not even sure you have watched any further info on this game when you mention there is no choice and consequences, if you know anything about garriet he lives on those. Look up virtues in ultima if you don't believe me. At this point I think it is safe to say you may be a bit delusional if you think mount and blade is his inpiration, I'm not surprised by this here, but I think it is the case.

Originally Posted by QuestLord
I am actually sort of bummed out now. I was hoping for some decent 'rah-rah' comradery on Richard's announcement but its just such a strange reaction. Almost like everyone is upset. It's been compared to World of Warcraft?! Also to a Polish game that I guarantee you is so far off Richard's radar….

I just…sigh… you win again internets.

I am not really surprised at this point. It has been like this for a long time here. I guess I am in the minority to be super excited for a richard garriet RPG.

Well, I’m disappointed. I’m a huge Ultima fan, played them all… but I’m not a fan of MMOs. That’s where the housewives grind while chewing the fat. I was actually an early UO beta tester, and that’s probably where my distaste for MMOs comes from.

If Lord British had stepped through a Moongate from Britannia to another land, let say Germania, and created a 2D isometric single-player RPG in the style of Ultima7, I think Ultima fans would’ve went ballistic! I’m sure it would’ve broken Torment’s record setting debut. I was fully prepared to pledge up to $500 for a signed, boxed CE… but sadly, I can only muster $25 for this UO wannabe that I probably won’t even play anyway.

Originally Posted by QuestLord
There has never been a time of less publisher interest and developers have been forced to take independent measures into their own hands more than ever before. All of the major publishers already have their fantasy series and most do not want a competitor of their own series. EA is the only one bold enough to do that with DragonAge but they in no way are going to strike another deal with Richard.

This statement is just wrong my friend.

Thank you for taking the time to write a reasonable response. Now I understand where you are coming from. I have much the same opinion as yourself, except with one major difference. From the KS video to me it looks like a game that is well into development and also very generic hack and slash crpg ala Divinity/Risen/Witcher except ONLINE and with monetization. I see nothing deserving of Kickstarter. It certainly doesn't look like a spiritual sequel to the Ultima games which is what the title sounds like to me. If it was I would throw a significant amount of money at it. Again, I want to stress this is all my opinion and if there is an update with alays my fears then I would be happy to be proven wrong.

I would really like to know though, what from the KS page is convincing people to pledge.

Originally Posted by rune_74
Problem is, I did comment on what you wrote and why I thought you were wrong. You ignored that.

I didn't get around to responding to you yet

Originally Posted by rune_74
I don't get where you think they would get anyone to publish the game when even by the early videos it clearly is not a social game. I get that the developer generally makes social games but that doesn't make them exclusively that.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you were ok with obsidian getting funding? How is this any different?

It has social aspects to it but I agree it is clearly not a social game. To me crpgs are a something I like to enjoy personally and out of prinicpal I do not support the social aspects of gaming. Also, as I said above to me the game looks well into it's development cycle and the information on the kickstarter page did just not resonate with me and some of the text seemed to contradict what was shown in the video. If he is throwing around words like Vitues and Avatar it had better be a spiritual successor to Ultima in my book Again though, nothing would make me happier if it does turn out the way I dream a modern day take on Ultima 7 would be.

I funded Obsidian for 2 reasons. Firstly based on their previous games - Yes, Richard has made some of the greatest games ever but it was a team effort and I know Obisdian has the team to do it and I'm not so sure about Portalarium. Secondly the PE KS page really struck a cord with me - it just sounded right. I can't put my finger on it but I am confident I am going to get a faithful reproduction of an old school crpg game using modern technology.

Originally Posted by Gokyabgu
Richard Garriott is no ordinary man. He can easily be called father of cRPGs. He made the first commercial cRPG. Ultima 3 is the foundation of eastern RPGs today. He showed us what world interactivity and choices&consequences are with Ultima 4-5-6-7. Ultima Underworld games inspired Bethesda to have made Elder Scrolls series. He made the first TPS style action RPG with Ultima 9 that later inspired Piranha Bytes with Gothic. He determined the standards of MMORPGs with Ultima Online. With each Ultima game he drew the boundaries of this genre. So in theory he has his fingers on nearly every RPGs we are playing. We are talking about 30 years of experience here.

So I expect something unique and revolutionary from him. Although I admit KS information is a bit vague. Anyway we will wait and see.

Garriott didn't make the Ultima Underworld games. Blue Byte/Looking Glass Studios were responsible for those. Give credit where credit is due. As far as Gothic is concerned, I'm sure that the earlier Ultimas were far more of an inspiration than the abomination that is Ultima 9.

There is no denying his legacy, but what has he done lately? In my opinion, he is spreading himself too thin. There is almost no way that the multiplayer focus won't detract from the single player experience. Personally, I have no interest in the multiplayer component. Therefore, there is no way that I'm backing this one.

Originally Posted by QuestLord
I am actually sort of bummed out now. I was hoping for some decent 'rah-rah' comradery on Richard's announcement but its just such a strange reaction. Almost like everyone is upset. It's been compared to World of Warcraft?! Also to a Polish game that I guarantee you is so far off Richard's radar….

I just…sigh… you win again internets.

Don't blame the internets. Garriott's true RPG roots are in creating memorable single player worlds as opposed to multiplayer games. This Kickstarter doesn't fit the bill. Ergo…disappointment.

I'm not sure how much misinformation is getting out there at the moment. I think what they have planned is something a bit different in how they handle the multiplayer part. For one, it isn't planned to be on their servers it would be between hosts if I read that correctly. They have also said that if a player wanted to play the game from start to finish without doing any multiplayer it would be an option. That even if all you wanted to do was log on(as an option) it would update cities to what other players have done to see different looks t o buildings etc.

For living world he mentions that he wants every item you see that can be used to be able to be used by the player. Back to the original ultimas it was all about scheduals and realistic movements of npcs from 6 basically on. I assume adding to the living world would be developer added content that would show up on the map as you play the game. Having an overland map makes it incredibly easy to add events as opposed to a single level map.

You mean to tell me they plan on having 5 parts to the game! omg, why would they ever want to develop the game to have a future?

Originally Posted by Vindicator
If Lord British had stepped through a Moongate from Britannia to another land, let say Germania, and created a 2D isometric single-player RPG in the style of Ultima7, I think Ultima fans would’ve went ballistic! I’m sure it would’ve broken Torment’s record setting debut. I was fully prepared to pledge up to $500 for a signed, boxed CE… but sadly, I can only muster $25 for this UO wannabe that I probably won’t even play anyway.

Well said and I agree totally, but sad to say this isn't the case, if it had been I would have made a pledge even higher than my Torment one, at this point don't have the interest to contribute anything.

To clarify what I said earlier: it smells to me like he's tossing out all the phrases and ideas that are going to get him kickstarter bucks. But the game itself looks like another MMO. Happy to be wrong, but I'm suspicious.

Originally Posted by Ovenall
To clarify what I said earlier: it smells to me like he's tossing out all the phrases and ideas that are going to get him kickstarter bucks. But the game itself looks like another MMO. Happy to be wrong, but I'm suspicious.

Really? I have to ask have you read any of the interviews or stuff thats on his site? Because, I don't get that same impression at all. earlier you even said itlooked like another WoW clone which is really strange since it never even came into my mind as that.

So if I can get things straight here what we have here is a mix of mount and blade and WoW he is copying now?

Oh and for those asking why is Garriet puting any of his own money in…here is what they wrote in the comments section for kickstarter.

Seriously though, no one is more passionate about this game than Richard which is why he has and will continue to invest in the game, far more than we're likely to raise on KS. This is just a great opportunity to pull in the ravenous fans (like most of you!) into the process and also get some extra funding to help add content and address some concerns being expressed here.

Vlad, only one project has really generated 60% of it's money on day one and that is the Torment project. They were a very special case in that this was essentially their third KS and they pulled heavily on their existing audience. We're thrilled with the results so and are in the top 5 or so all time for day one for video games which, given the much more cautious KS market, is very good.

We also are at a slight disadvantage because we went tech heavy first instead of art heavy. People like pretty pictures, they sell games on KS but pretty art doesn't ship games. We focused on tech because we're here to make a game, not a wall of pretty pictures! Games rarely don't ship due to art issues and we're here to ship.

That said, Hell yes, go get more people in but we're doing great based on the larger historical data (ignoring someone's second/third KS that exploded earlier this week). -Chris

I hear a lot of talk from this guy, but remember how all 3 Fable games were talked up? It's hype until I see something more real. All the clips I've seen look like pretty standard fantasy MMO stuff. I'm simply skeptical, that's all.

Hmm I don't see this any different then what cdprojekt is doing with the 3rd witcher game. Of course at the moment it is pretty fluid to as to how a lot of things will work, which is no different from any of the other kickstarter rpg games out there.

The difference is that this is Richard Garriet and he wants this game to succeed and he wants redemption. I guess it helps he was my childhood favorite dev, I guess I'm just dissapointed in the amount of negativety here.

Originally Posted by rune_74
I guess it helps he was my childhood favorite dev, I guess I'm just dissapointed in the amount of negativety here.

That was probably the most genuine thing I've seen you write here at The Watch, Rune. Cheers.

And I can understand that. Personally, though, I don't see much to be positive about in this pitch. It looks like a coop action RPG, which will likely have MMOish combat and micro transactions. Designing a game with coop so ingrained invariably changes its core gameplay into something I'm not interested in.

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't like The Witcher 2 much, either — too linear, too actiony in its combat and too little character development.

The multiplayer experience is very MMO like and I think we're just confusing people by saying it is not. You will be able to see other players in game and meet new people. The only thing that will be different is that where possible, we won't be driving 100% of the experience through our servers. Instead, we'll be letting players direct connect to each other.

As for PVP and MMO, trust me, I know they are scary words to the KS crowd and non UO Ultima fans

In another thread I expressed hesitation that "going back to his roots" meant Ultima online, and that appears to be the case. To many people UO was the greatest mmo of all time. So I'm sure they'll be happy with that.

I know they are promising the single player wont be hurt by this focus, but honestly, I've heard that one before. Playing single player in a game meant for multiplayer or co-up just isn't the same. It's not designed for you, and you can tell that. Maybe Garriot will be the first to get it right. We'll see. Plus they are already talking about micro transactions which I don't care for.

For now I am not going to pledge, but I will keep an eye on the comments when it's released, and make a decision then. If it's a solid single player experience, I might purchase it then.