I think I need to recap some of the more offensive hate facts of the Dark Enlightenment, for example what happened to Rhodesia, the Congo, what is happening to South Africa, the benefits of slavery in the United States, the consequences of affirmative actioning women into roles for which they are unsuited, and Whig treason against Britain in the revolutionary war, and recommend these hate facts for inclusion into the canon, as an immovable obstacle against a more politically correct Dark Enlightenment. Though, of course, Radish has already done much fine work along these lines.

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115 Responses to “Entryist attack”

IKR! Must he be such a stereotype? What’s next? Screwing someone out of money? Wait, I bet if we look hard enough in his past we can..you know what? Never mind. Seriously, wasn’t he supposed to be floating in a plastic island by now? You know, walking the walk, as they say. Maybe he really is smart enough to realize he’d just be walking the plankand thus continues to do what he’s good at — not good for anyone else, mind you, but good for him, sure.

Entryists appear to be acting as individuals, but are always part of an organized group. That is what entryism means. If he is really acting as individual, he is not an entryist.

The timing is suggestive of coordination.

But let us not call it “the Jewish conspiracy”. That is overly paranoid, not because there is no Jewish conspiracy, but because there are so many, generally acting at cross purposes. Two Jews, three factions.

“… Two Jews, three factions…”
This only counts when they’re not screwing the Gentile. One example; Conservative Jew and Liberal Jew don’t agree but when it’s mass immigration into the West to atomize the society. Perfect agreement.

One time I went to David Friedman’s blog and tried pointing out some problems that HBD poses for his stance on immigration. While he was initially somewhat enthusiastic, his enthusiasm waned as i brought up the subject of racial differences. It’s worth noting that he has acknowledged possible racial differences in IQ on several occasions but hasn’t quite drawn the correct conclusions.

Observe that Moldbug has been outed, and likely will suffer serious consequences.

So, the deal is that if you agree with a slightly more acceptable version of the Dark Enlightenment, and indignantly reject those horrid people who propose the extremely nasty hateful version of the Dark Enlightenment, the nasty people will be fed to the crocodiles before you are. But if you don’t want to be front of the line to be fed to the crocodiles, you have to hate the less acceptable version with a hatred hotter than ten thousand suns.

Pretty soon everyone lines up behind the slightly less dark enlightenment, at least that is the plan. Rinse and repeat, and the slightly less dark enlightenment becomes the dimly lit enlightenment, and soon the quite light enlightenment.

This is, in fact, pretty much what happened to libertarianism and anarcho capitalism, whose major cause today is to bring a couple of hundred million of the latin American underclass into the United States to live on welfare and crime and vote Democrat.

Patri’s job is to compose the Slightly Less Dark Enlightenment. Muscle will be applied to make everyone love him and hate the Dark Enlightenment.

Has Moldbug actually faced any consequences for his outing? I thought he was independently wealthy and basically untouchable.

On top of that, his writing is so wordy, round-about, and jargonny that the average Progressive’s reaction is puzzlement (see the Metafilter thread), followed by loss of interest. He just doesn’t resemble the typical prey. Now, if respected authorities were to preach against him, I’m sure the faithful would get the message, but has that really happened yet?

It is, of course, possible to audit, investigate and otherwise pester someone who keeps his nose clean and runs a small software startup. But it is resource-intensive, high-risk (if you push hard enough, you can be exposed and suffer personal consequences, like the prosecutor in the Duke Case.) And again-these people will have to slog through the UR archives, try to extract all Crimethink, summarize it and present it to the courts, blogs, etc., providing more of an audience-it’s a lot of work for a potentially negative investment.

Yes, because they want power (“make a change”) and/or believe in America (a communist country), and/or democracy. The ones who don’t… become us.

As such, I do not see the two cases as at all equivalent. The DE is not subject to progressive entryism, because it simply cannot be made palatable to orthodox progressives. Our core truth is that people and groups of people are not equal in many ways. And democracy has failed.

Patri Friedman is progressive, but quite unorthodox, and evidently getting more unorthodox. This is what happens to autodidacts in a world where palpable falsehood is touted as truth by the great and good. This won’t end well for him, I think, but it does not hurt us.

Libertarians have institutions. When you have institutions, those institutions get their precious bodily fluids sapped and impurified by Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy.

Perhaps some day, someone will try to make a Neoreactionary institution, and try to be respectable. Problem is, that institution will not be supported by any real neoreactionaries, because neoreactionaries if they are neoreactionaries understand how useful activism is. Instead, it will be yet another libertarian/ancap/white nationalist institution.

You will notice that white nationalist institutions are not subverted by entryists. Instead, they are shut out, and everyone looks away when their members are beaten by Communists.

In truth, this is a victory.

The elites will not change their tune for many years after they change their behavior. But what we as neoreactionaries want, other than the rectification of names, is for the elites to change their behavior. Friedman seems to think that some DE ideas are necessary and he can make them just palatable enough to sneak in to practice. I hope he is right.

> Observe that Moldbug has been outed, and likely will suffer serious consequences.

So what if he will? I for one have his complete archive, with comments, on my hard drive, and I’m unlikely to be the only one. I also archive Foseti and some other heavyweights. My greatest pity is that I didn’t think of archiving Thursday before he deleted his blog. Also, I miss a post by Vladimir (reportedly not the one who’s commenting at Land’s) called “Intelligent People who aren’t Decent”. He used to blog at vladimiria.blogspot.com, but it’s been replaced with some garbage. I wonder if anyone saved his writings?

Also Moldbug has independent means. He can spend his time writing poetry and fooling around with Urbit (was there any need to reinvent Lisp yet another time?) and he can tell the PC brigade to go chase themselves. However if they take it out on his family, that might be a whole ‘nother kettle of fish.

Jim, “recap” that America should have never existed but slavery should still exist is not only counter-reality but counter-productive. I could say you’ll catch more flies with honey as opposed to vinegar but it would be more accurate that fighting not to be a slave and keep eating shit is a better offer than fight for your slavery so you can EAT SHIT, but at least it will be FORMAL. Oh lower status whites should fight to EAT SHIT and bow while eating it, but you’ll eat less shit than the niggers. [see? it’s not so hard to say the N word].

Before you say “but it’s the Truth” no it isn’t. It’s theory. For in fact America did throw off the British Crown, America does exist, and America abolished Slavery at enormous cost. The right/wrong is irrelevant to reality.

Life isn’t Fair and never will be. NR, King Jacob and all the rest will not change that.

Now if it’s all you simply want to be unquestionably on top and no lesser status dare even meet your eyes, understood. But understand you’ll have to do it the old fashioned way – Killing your way there, and Killing to stay there.

So for the next few decades you’d kinda have to forget about order and stability, and you can never relax the grip. Ever. Gorby blinked, look what happened.

There’s a difference between should and is; but this time it is irrelevant, because what should have happened still should happen.

Slavery is the best thing that ever happened to the African race, and Jim Crow segregation the second-best; reintroduction of policies that explicitly notice what they are capable of would be a massive improvement.

America did indeed break away and form a limited suffrage, federal republic; that ended up with what we have now. Breaking away may or may not have been a good idea; forming a republic instead of hailing George Washington as king was one of the worst ideas in world history.

We’ll mind however personal carbon taxes, the firearms ban, making self-defense in your own home a crime, being hunted as sport by Muslims, arrested for tweets, arrested indeed for this blog, worse crime, worse social metrics all around, finishing the destruction of the white working class, a higher murder rate and so on. But I’m sure as we’re not dealing with reality – as it’s nonsensical compared to what should be This Time we’ll get it right.

“recap” that America should have never existed but slavery should still exist is not only counter-reality but counter-productive.

Disturbing truths are our shibboleth.

Reality is that those blacks that caught the boat were lucky, and that the United States was created by lies and horrible betrayals.

One may conclude from this or not conclude from this that slavery should still exist, and that the United States should not exist, but whatever one concludes, the common core of the Dark Enlightenment program is Dark Enlightenment – knowing the truth about people and society.

Revisiting disturbing truths will exclude those reluctant to accept truth.

See if actual reality as opposed to alternative histories makes sense.

Reality: The United States, Still Republic in name and legacy structure of the Constitution and Jeffersonian democracy EXISTS.

Reality: America has never had a monarch.

Reality: Slavery was abolished in 1865.

Reality: William is sovereign Heir of England. He presides over a country more progressive and more fsked up than America, see paragraph above. Full of Hatefacts about England, which I don’t hate.
Since restoration of the Anglican monarchy over America is desired, that’s what you’d be getting. You’d be arrested for this blog for instance.

This is what exists. I’m not sure why this doesn’t make sense. What is real exists. What happened, happened. This seems to make sense to me.

What seems to make sense here – and this is all quite droll but my chief objection is it’s a distraction when real headway is being made – what seems to make sense is we lament the past and long for a Mulligan on it. Yes. All men do such. However it’s a distraction.

I’ll also submit that chasing after Black criminals, who have no power except violence upon the weak and unprepared and as pawns for the Cathedrals grievance division is also a distraction. Simple actual policing and an end to the subsidies, combined with freedom of association handle the problem.

More reality: you’ll understand perhaps that Blacks don’t consider slavery to be a benefit either as legacy and particularly as a modern social corrective. By perhaps I mean – Perhaps you’ll understand. Perhaps you won’t.

Now if the goal is to raise entryist barriers by making the reintroduction of slavery a core value you’ll probably raise the barrier quite high enough. So high in fact the rest of your ideas won’t be able to climb out either. The barrier to entry will also be the barrier to EXIT.

If all past movements left are deemed established facts, reality, as if they were laws of nature, then all future movements left are also reality, laws of nature.

But none of the things you cite are real physical things like a wall or a hole in the ground, they are arrangements between people, apt to change or shatter with a thought. They have no existence in the physical world, only in people’s minds. They are not real even in the way that human nature is real, they are thoughts, stories people tell each other, as fragile as a dream.

You say the United States exists? If it exists, how can Obama legislate and budget by executive order? He knows it does not exist. Awaken to that reality.

America stopped being a republic and become an empire the moment the north won the civil war. Republics don’t force member states to stay by force, empires do.

“More reality: you’ll understand perhaps that Blacks don’t consider slavery to be a benefit either as legacy and particularly as a modern social corrective. By perhaps I mean – Perhaps you’ll understand. Perhaps you won’t. ”

Blacks seem to love slavery. They practiced it Liberia, and freed blacks often acquired slaves of their own.

I remember reading a story about a white women who was passing through Detroit and stopped for gas one night. She was kidnapped and used as a sex slave for a couple of weeks. Gas station attended didn’t bother to report her kidnapping for 40 minutes after it happened. The first time she escaped a different group of blacks captured her and used her for the same purpose.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. The Crocodile Poe is the big leagues. Before you start racing Usain Bolt, you’ve got to spend some time on the basics. Here, why don’t we deconstruct a more accessible classic of American poetry. This is American auteur H. Rap Brown’s masterpiece from the pinnacle of his oeuvre, Die Nigger Die:

“The street is where young bloods get their education. I learned how to talk in the street, not from reading about Dick and Jane going to the zoo and all that simple shit. The teacher would test our vocabulary each week, but we knew the vocabulary we needed. They’d give us arithmetic to exercise our minds. Hell, we exercised our minds by playing the Dozens.

“I fucked your mama
Till she went blind.
Her breath smells bad,
But she sure can grind.
I fucked your mama
For a solid hour.
Baby came out
Screaming, Black Power.
Elephant and the Baboon
Learning to screw.
Baby came out looking
Like Spiro Agnew.

And the teacher expected me to sit up in class and study poetry after I could run down shit like that. If anybody needed to study poetry, she needed to study mine.”

Let’s delve into that a bit, and then we can talk about the Crocodile as the semester moves on.

“Slavery was of net benefit to Americans held as slaves” is perhaps one of the tallest walls to entryists that could ever be constructed. It is at least a debatable point. The protective value alone makes it worth it.

Eh, doubt it. I think Jim is either independent financially, or blogging under a pseudonym, or both. I doubt they will send his local SWAT team after him, and I have the impression that he is well-equipped to handle anything short of that. Not that it would come to that-as you recall, the Outer Party were the ones really vulnerable to the Inner Party. The Proles and others outside the party system more or less could say whatever they wanted without triggering the immune system. To Gawker, Jim’s blog is indistinguishable from the rantings of an American Nazi Party member from Beaver Lick, Alabama (see the responses to him on ESR’s blog.) Does Gawker go after those people? Fuck, no-it would be a waste of time.

See, this is what I said before-a bit of pressure, and the “neoreactionary” “community” starts to shit its pants. If the screws ever get applied, you guys will start turning on each other like nobody’s business.

“The six principles!” “The sixteen commandments of poon!”

Come on, guys. You’re dealing with Anil Dash and the editorial staff of Jezebel here. Take a deep breath. If you can’t figure out how to make a living in such a way as to become effectively immune from these retards’ nonsense, or how to effectively anonymize yourselves, maybe this counterculture thing isn’t for you. There’s a Tea Party meetup somewhere in your vicinity, I’m sure.

The way you protect your values, which are embodied by words from being subverted via your words being misappropriated, emptied of meaning and filled by other values, is by creating content which is informed by your values, but has inherent value of its own. By making Neoreactionary art and music which your enemies can’t help but be drawn to.

Not by making signs of the cross at the Entryists (discussing the inherent benefits of slavery) and hoping they will scurry away hissing.

Tested it. They either run away hissing, or respond with their own shibboleths, as Chris did. Either way, we win, since our shibboleths are truth itself, while their shibboleths are mere authority and status claims.

Right. Now, when there is a legion of Chris, being pumped over at you from Jezebel, Gawker and co., getting a tailor-made party line instead of having to improvise from standard shibboleths (“cultural anthropology, maaan!”), using your terminology in twisted ways, in the public’s eye your usage of those words will be drowned out by the Chris. Just because of bandwidth, proxy authority and conciseness. Meaning, what we all already knew-Neoreaction as a public movement in the Western world is stillborn. Unless it can create some serious content of its own.

Not seeing it. Entryists are supposed to subvert the opponents shibboleths, Chris is just stating his own shibboleths, based on status and authority. Not a problem, indeed an advantage. Makes the official shibboleths sound as stupid as they are. Instead of me strawmanning the enlightenment, Chris does it for me.

An entryist would say “I agree with you but …” and then restate our shibboleths in ways that undermine their meaning. Are libertarians anti state? A progressive tells the libertarian, “you can be twice as anti state, and in a way that is higher status” That is entryism.

I meant Chris as a representative of the kind of people who come flooding in after Patri, once Patri has explained that the true essence of Neoreaction is nondiscriminatory. Hey-it’s about time for the “movement” to have its Eternal September.

Mind you as a ploy of: raise all in, f__k you, CALL… it has something to be admired about it. But Molon Labe is accomplishing the same thing without the heinous baggage. And Molon Labe – not popular here – is popular amongst they who would act. Race is not only a done battle, it’s a played out card.

I have noticed that when it’s come and take them, the response is silence.
Which means BTW it was extremely foolish to raise the subject to begin with…progs are defeated and weakened, faced down.

If you want to raise the entryist barriers with R card, fine. It’s your blog.

Understand this would be done to ward off a largely bugaboo bogeyman and carries like all strategies risk.

And the advancements in 3d printer technology is sure helpful in this case of “Molon Labe”. It also helps that the Pajama Boys aren’t exactly militarily inspiring leaders nor are they good with counting money…

Was slavery a net benefit to blacks? Yes, because it took them out of Africa and created their diaspora.

Was slavery a benefit to the Confederacy? No, because the use of slaves interfered with the incentive to technological and industrial innovation and resulted in military failure (ultimate test of reality). Plus, it established a hostile population in the Confederacy (so much for ensuring long term stability).

Was the military failure of the Confederacy because of a lack of innovation? I thought one of the bigger factors was that they were outnumbered, and another big one was that they were more offensive than defensive. But I’m curious to hear differing opinions.

Importing slaves is a terrible strategy, since you are importing people that someone else, someone who knows them better than you do, does not want around.

Observe Dubai’s strategy with low socioeconomic status workers: They don’t get to bring their families with them, they have to return home if fired for cause, and even if not fired for cause, have to return home if they don’t eventually secure higher socioeconomic status housing. The employer who brought them in has to pay for them to be taken out if they turn out to be problem people.

Dubai’s strategy is a much better strategy than that followed by the South.

Given, however, that you have people around you don’t want around, what would be a good strategy?

One widely popular strategy is to enslave them and either sell them somewhere else, or prevent them from reproducing.

A more humane strategy is that followed by the monasteries, where people who had no visible means of support were forcibly supplied with humane living conditions, community, meaningful work, prevented from reproducing, and kept out of circulation. Of coursed being forced to work, prevented from reproducing, and kept out of circulation sounds like slavery, but the monastic intent was charitable, was intended to benefit the recipient rather than profit the monastery, and by and large, they really did.

[…] If you need more close evidence, look at the state of neoreaction these days. For some reason the mainstream internet media has noticed that there are evil reactionaries on the internet, and suddenly progressives over the internet are finding the need to proclaim their unconditional condemnation of Emmanuel Goldstein. Everybody was getting agitated, and just when the hate wave was subsiding, the follow-up came: entryism. […]

The curious will either explore and buy in, or they’ll recoil from some idea or other and leave. I think it’s unlikely that there will ever be cafeteria neoreactionaries, so keep Neoreaction toxic to timid explorers by standing by the six principles; they’re non-negotiable. That way there can never be such a thing as an anti-sexist or anti-racist neoreactionary. This should be an environment that excludes even the hardiest extremophiles.

Rhodesia was run by a small group of civilization-bringing, nondemocratic whites, and it was a First World country that resisted the pressure of the progressive world for years.
Zimbabwe is run by a large group of civilization-destroying, democratic blacks, and it became, was and remains a Third World hellhole despite having the support of the progressive world for years.

Always, blacks with PhDs are affirmative action – and frequently so light skinned that no would know they were black had they not claimed blackness in order to take advantage of affirmative action.

Let us look at the poster boys for black intellectuals. They are light skinned, and not very intellectual.

Just as choice of Marie Curie for science poster girl tells us how hard up they are for female “scientists”, and the choice of Kara Hultgreen and Amelia Earhart for pilot poster girls tells us that women cannot be pilots, the choice of poster boys for black scientist shows they are even harder up for blacks than for girls.

Everyone with eyes can see races. Even dogs can tell the difference between races of humans – google “racist dog”.

Good luck making an argument that there are no races that doesn’t also lead to the conclusion that blue and red are the same color (there’s no specific wavelength where blue ends!) or that you should go outside in a tee shirt and slacks in -15 degree weather (there’s no dividing line between Miami and northern Canada – just a slow decline in temperature!).

There is nothing to close ranks on. The second there is, the second you start thinking in those terms, you have already lost.

Moldbug addressed this repeatedly.

Because Moldbug will lead us to victory! Oh wait. He said we should vote for Obama.
What’s your definition of “lost” here? If Patri Friedman and disingenuous progs such as this Chris above me come in droves and annoy the hell of every nr blog out there, well that’s losing to me. That’s all I care about as far as my blog is concerned. I’m not saving the world here, I’m not running a local community. I have a blogroll of smart fellas and I wanna keep it that way.

By making Neoreactionary art and music which your enemies can’t help but be drawn to.

We have millennia of good art and music, which our enemies aren’t drawn to at all. In fact they produce horrible art and music which should repel anyone but they fail to be repelled by it. And not a small part of the kids here are very attracted to modern brutalist music too btw.

So no, while I like your compelling narrative theory (which is not unlike my new religion theory), I’m afraid it’s not that simple. In fact the narrative of your religion isn’t very compelling at all, given that you rely on natural growth and fail to attract secular Jews to you. Do the math and you’ll see more Orthodox kids going secular than the other way around.

We SHOULD have voted for Obama. “The worse it gets, the better it is” as Lenin said.

My definition of “lost” is what happened to the John Birch Society. They were 80% correct. Their enemies were 0% correct. What’s the result?

“We” don’t have any art or music. All the stuff you are referring to is historical. The literature “we” have is, basically, Moldbug’s writings. “We” don’t have, e.g., Carlyle or Froude-the 19th century has them.

There is a massive and ongoing influx of secular Jews into Orthodoxy-they’re called baalei teshuva. I’m one. At the same time, of course the Cathedral attracts some Orthodox Jews to itself, whether through outright rejection of Judaism or through keeping the trappings while substituting Cathedral meanings, like gay Orthodox Jews, Orthofeminists and so on, which is worse. One of its major trump cards is the remarkable lack of an Orthodox art/music/literature scene capable of standing on its own two feet in exile, and the nascency of these scenes in Orthodoxy in Israel (it is emerging, though-lots of art and music, no masterpieces yet.) Moshe Feiglin wrote about this phenomenon:

“The belief based public is imprisoned in its “anti-culture” stance. We do not create real culture. Instead, we secretly adopt the existing culture — that so often lacks restraint and refinement. We read A.B. Yehoshua and Amos Oz and hum Leftist songs to ourselves. Not that we agree with the words, but they are written in authentic language and we can identify with them. After all, what is our alternative? Utzu Eitzah? Mashiach Mashiach? Those songs are good for weddings, but what deep needs do they answer in our souls? Does anybody hum Mashiach Mashiach when he is alone?

When Israelis whistle the tunes of Shlomo Artzi, they adopt his spiritual world. Ultimately, they also adopt his words, “We already have a land, why do we need another one?” And then, when the settlement enterprise is threatened with destruction, Tel Aviv accepts it without blinking an eye.

We must begin to build an authentic Israeli culture — a culture founded on our Jewish roots; a Torah-motivated culture that will replace the culture of estrangement and cynicism that exists today.

It’s time to get to work! Time for creative and free writing, for new and original music, for artistic photography that emphasizes our true will, for authentic poetry, meaningful satire, for drawing and sculpting that reflect our morals and values.

This is the way for us to become a great nation, a united nation; a nation that is proud of its identity; a nation that would never think of abandoning its authentic culture or the Land on which it developed.”

“My definition of “lost” is what happened to the John Birch Society. They were 80% correct. Their enemies were 0% correct. What’s the result?”

““We” don’t have any art or music. All the stuff you are referring to is historical. The literature “we” have is, basically, Moldbug’s writings. “We” don’t have, e.g., Carlyle or Froude-the 19th century has them.”

I think the reason Jim pokes the christens from time to time is the desire to get that group back into creating things of value.

Remember that the Nazi’s won not through being right, but rather they won because because it was awesome to be a Nazi. Good architecture, good music, good families, great speeches, good place to find pretty girls, ect. Joining the Nazi movement even before they came into power was a win win for the average German.

I hear you guys but the Nazis had pretty lies too. And gay parties. We don’t. At present all we have is a depressing if accurate analysis of our civilization’s decline. I’ve said it a hundred times but I’ll say ti again: neoreaction is not a good sell, for obvious reasons. Nazism was an awesome sell in 1932.

You can’t just use the Orthodox Judaism model for everyone. You went to a country that you didn’t build, infiltrated it, and made your women pump out babies until you were half the country. And only now you’re starting to come up with art of your own?

Well tell me exactly how is that applicable to a worldwide movement of young guys writing blogs about how everything sucks.

The closest thing Christendom has to the Haredis are the Mormons, which are orders of magnitude more numerous, cohesive and motivated than anybody else out there. What do they have? Pretty churches, and little else. Is there any historical precedent for a minority religious movement with influential art? For all I know artists are hard-wired to defer to the majority religion and seek status inside the mainstream.

Neo-reaction in it’s current form will never be a good sell to anyone but the elites. The other classes need their pretty lies. I believe Jim did a few posts on this subject. Best you can hope for is shaping better pretty little lies so they will be better working with reality than the progressive ones are.

Mormons are essentially setting up to be Christan version of the Jewish middleman. When the left jettisons the Jews the Mormons will step in to take their place. Parasites seldom create anything of value.

B wants to re-create/or is creating real Jewish culture and is working on ending the middle man minority gig. His ideas don’t help neo-reactionaries primarily because he’s working on the last stage of an actual working political/nationalistic movement. As best as I can tell Neo-reaction is a philosophical movement that some people are trying to turn into a political movement. If it becomes an actual politcal movement then we’re going to need our own set of myths and pretty little lies. I’d prefer we don’t go that route.

Most of B’s thumping on neo-reactionaries is simply his nationalist/ethic pride, but he has good points when it comes to creating an actual working political/nationalistic movement.

Voxday thinks nationalist movements are the wave of the future. If so moving into such groups and injecting neoreactionary truths into them would be a good way to create a good political movement. So would be starting your own nationalistic movement. Doing the same to Christan churches would also be good. Churches with their low attendance numbers and democratic voting structure are prime candidates for take over by traditionalist christens informed by neo-reactionies about the real history of Christianity and immune to progressive lies.

Neoreaction is not a good sell because it’s currently almost free of good content.

If Nazism was such a good sell, how come it required repeated injections of Wall Street money and Stalin ordering Thalman (the head German Communist) to join forces with Hitler in 1932 to form a majority?

Incidentally, is there any Nazi art or music that has lasting value? I can’t think of anything off the top of my head.

Check your history-we did build the country. Look at the Arab population figures before the Jews started coming back. Read Mark Twain’s travel notes. Once the Jews started coming back, setting up agriculture, draining swamps, then refugees from various surrounding Arab shitholes started flooding in. As a matter of policy, Turkey and Britain encouraged this. If you meant that the seculars built Israel, this is also not accurate-when the secular Zionists started coming here, they built on the infrastructure created by their religious predecessors.

>And only now you’re starting to come up with art of your own?

We’ve been a bit busy, what with the whole building up the country and trying to keep our neighbors from killing us. But, yes, should have started earlier. Learn from our mistakes.

>For all I know artists are hard-wired to defer to the majority religion and seek status inside the mainstream.

Seems like a pretty specious speculation.

Look, man, it’s not like you need a Medici or Pope to sponsor you these days and provide a few kilotons of marble. Surely there is someone in the “Reactosphere” capable of producing something more compelling than reams of bloviations?

Your Jewish roots are exile and dependency. Do you have songs celebrating the land of Israel as it actually is, the physical landscape, its seasons, its trees, the recent history of Jews killing for Israel, dying for Israel, burying their fathers in Israel, and sometimes their sons? Songs of home, rather than exile?

If so moving into such groups and injecting neoreactionary truths into them would be a good way to create a good political movement. So would be starting your own nationalistic movement. Doing the same to Christan churches would also be good. Churches with their low attendance numbers and democratic voting structure are prime candidates for take over by traditionalist christens informed by neo-reactionies about the

So now we’re the entryists ! Didn’t see that one coming.

But yes, we should continue telling the truth so it can’t be ignored by any new political movement that may occur.

>B

Yes, I meant that Zionism was mostly secular, and early Israel was outright socialist.
Anyway, to the extent that you guys succeed it would be through natural growth, not attracting other Jews through your superior narrative.

But hey, by all means do try it. I’m not totally buying your theory but if it does work it’s all for the best.

I have been nagging B. that a large part of the Talmud needs to be stuffed into the basement behind the water heater, if Judaism is to become the religion of a nation, rather than a religion of exile, if Judaism is to come home, but he is not buying it.

Those Jews that are poisoning the west drink of their own poison more deeply than anyone, disbanding their own culture and people as they disband that of their hosts. It was not orthodox Jews that ran the civil rights movement.

Note the prevalence of orange hair among civil rights activists, which is what happens to black hair when you bleach it.

Forgive us, sir, for not loving and accepting your deity along with the Prophet Muhammad, Quetzalcoatl, Ganesha and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. We are truly despicable beyond words. Please, don’t waste any more time on me-I would just try to subvert you, like the Protocols say.

In fact, most of its facets only come into action when the Jews are a sovereign nation in their land.

Seems that ninety nine percent of talmudists are pretending that Jews are not a sovereign nation in their own land, because there are a whole lot of facets that they don’t want to see come into action.

Well, not entirely pretending. Until you reach out and take the temple, the last tiny step towards being a sovereign nation has not been taken. But a whole lot of Jews don’t actually want to reach out and take the temple for exactly that reason.

But truth is, you are a sovereign nation in your own land, and the refusal to reach out and take the temple is just a pretense.

Not 99%-75%. But less every year. You can take a look at my latest two posts-look at those guys, their lives and their faces. Think they will go along with exile-mode Judaism? What kind of rabbis do you think they follow?

I agree about the Temple. But again, the path to the Temple is through Torah (including the Talmud,) not through chucking the parts that are inconvenient and rewriting the rest as convenient. That way lies the path to the Cathedral. In fact, the Cathedral’s story is basically a bunch of just such chuckings and rewritings of Judaism, starting with Jesus, then with Paul and so on. Just like one replication control gene being knocked out causes an increased likelihood of additional mutations and a higher replication rate, and thus you get a positive feedback loop…

the path to the Temple is through Torah (including the Talmud,) not through chucking the parts that are inconvenient and rewriting the rest as convenient. That way lies the path to the Cathedral.

The Dark Enlightenment analyzes religions and ideologies as memetic systems subject to mutation and natural selection. The Theonomist branch of the neoreaction (that is you) analyzes religions other than their own as memetic systems subject to natural selection. If their own religion is subject to natural selection, they expect divine intervention to fix it.

Allow me to critique the Talmud from that point of view, from the Dark Enlightenment point of view.

We see massive elaboration of the Sabbath, and not cooking a kid in its mother’s milk.

Evidently what happened is that some pharisees, being holier than thou, elaborated these commands so as to demonstrate their superior holiness. To demonstrate more holiness than the next guy, these commands had to be more of a pain in the ass than the next guys commands.

But, being in exile, unlike the Puritans, no political power to force this superior holiness down people’s throats, so the congregation starts looking for a rabbi who does not make them wear hair shirts. So, in reaction to excessive holiness, we get latitudinarian legalism. Some rabbi ingeniously contrives a legal loophole whereby one can conform to this elaborated sabbath and milk rules without it being a pain in the ass. The congregation breathes a sigh of relief.

But then, the next round of phariseeism operates, and the sabbath and milk rules get further elaborated.

The pharisee elaborates the rules, making them a pain, the latitudinarian bores loopholes in the elaborated rules, making them more comfortable, the next pharisee elaborates the loophole bored rules, making them a pain again, the next latitudinarian bores more loopholes to make them more comfortable.

After numerous rounds of this, the elaborated loophole ridden rules become an IQ test.

For Judaism to follow the Jews home, it has to become what it could not be in exile, a state religion once again.

A state religion needs to be reasonably inclusive. You don’t want to include those Jews that deny the legitimacy of the state, and you don’t want to include those Jews that are thinly disguised unitarian universalists who have not quite yet made the transition to militant atheism, but you do want to include as many Jews as possible.

And it is hard to do that while obsessing about cheese crumbs.

And if you have a state religion that obsesses about cheese crumbs, you will, once again, be overrun by pharisees.

First, the relationship between the Torah, the Talmud and the Jewish people: the Torah is our foundational document. It is very concise. The Talmud is the practical expansion of the Torah, which details how the Torah should be applied. The follow-on commentators resolve conflicts and detail concrete applications in specific circumstances.

The physics involved in running a large city can fit into a handful of books. The engineering involved will take up a room’s worth of bookshelves. The Standard Operating Procedures would take up a library.

The Torah, the original source document, treats Shabbat and Kashrut as absolutely foundational, with the death penalty prescribed in the case of the willful violation of the first and spiritual cutting off in the case of the second. The two great waves of destruction of Jewish communities that did not involve physical liquidation, the Reform movement and the Soviet Yevsekciya, both focused on getting Jews to violate these commandments, because of their very foundationality. Hundreds of years before the codification of the Talmud, during the post-Alexandrian Greek occupation of Israel, a sizeable group of Jewish rebels died rather than violate Shabbat in fighting the Greeks.

The Talmud sets out the boundaries of both Shabbat and Kashrut in such a way that you can live with them. For instance, it says that keeping Shabbat is not required during wartime, or for activities that are necessary to save lives-in fact, it is forbidden insofar as it interferes with these activities. Thus, you see Orthodox Jews routinely driving military vehicles, using radios, carrying weapons on Shabbat. It also says that during a war, soldiers who don’t have Kosher food readily available can eat non-Kosher captured supplies. Incidentally, the Talmud also spells out the different kinds of war and their priorities. For a war of mitzvah, the entire nation is mobilized, including the rabbis and those normally exempt from fighting, like men in the first year of their marriage. And a war of mitzvah include scenarios like the enemy coming to a border city and demanding something worthless, like straw and chaff. That is to say that the Talmud frequently deals with applications of Torah that can only happen in a sovereign Jewish state, and places the preservation of that state and its sovereignty above the most fundamental commandments of Shabbat, Kashrut and preservation of life.

As to your point about the character and applications of the Torah and Talmud varying between exile and existence in a sovereign state, the Talmud itself points that out in detail. For instance, the Babylonian Talmud, which is the prototypical exilic compilation and exegesis, says of itself that the Torah of Bavel (Babylon) is darkness, juxtaposing itself with the Jerusalem Talmud, its Israeli predecessor. But they are different applications of the same principles, just like a nuclear engineering and mechanical engineering textbook reflect different applications of physics.

Regarding a holier-than-thou Kashrut and Shabbat: I do not know any Orthodox Jews, from Haredim to the most relaxed Religious Zionists, who have major disagreements on the applications of these laws, or confusion regarding their applications. They are, in practice, pretty simple and straightforward, much like driving a car (which of course takes many volumes to describe in any detail, yet any normal adult can do it with no thought whatsoever.) And about the need to include the maximum amount of Jews possible while excluding entryists and so forth, the Talmud addresses this at length, creating a very basic and inclusive framework. It takes a lot to be excluded-basically, public and spiteful desecration, with the explicit understanding that you are doing this for desecration’s sake, not for some benefit (i.e., mowing your lawn on Shabbat because that is your free time and your grass is getting long doesn’t count,) or serious, Jews For Jesus-style Entryism.

Any expression of Judaism as a state religion which throws out the basic requirements, such as Shabbat and Kashrut, is doomed by definition, because it’s no longer Judaism. On the other hand, the laws of Shabbat and Kashrut were built not a suicide pact, but as essential pillars of Jewish existence, so it is not necessary to throw them out, just to apply them in context.

Well, enough about our system’s insides. Let’s talk about the framework of the conversation. The very problem of the Dork Enlightenment is this attempt to step outside of “memetic systems.” As a result, you get paralysis by analysis. If I understand Godel, even math requires an act of faith to get started. If you want to get somewhere, you have to choose a system, and you have to choose correctly. I chose this one exactly because of its track record of surviving natural selection in all kinds of circumstances while not allowing temporary difficulties to shoehorn it into a dead-end path. To me, that suggested a divine origin-human engineering tends to be very limited and inflexible when it goes outside its envelope.

I prefer to see it as building better movements by being informed by the truth. You don’t need to deceptive about it, but the shoe might fit.

Personally I plan to jump into the first nationalist movement that looks like it might have a chance of doing some good. Hopefully I can spread some useful truths with in the ranks and find the comradeship without the endless holier than thou games I have currently have to put up with. The neo-reactionaries and the dark-enlightenment is for deep thinkers and philosophers and I’m more of a curious sheepdog. All I want is a return well working system that I can live better life under instead of our current system of insanity.