I am such a huge fan of Mizuno! I'm interested in purchasing the new Sayonara (spelling?) but I'm also curious about the Saucony Kinvara, how are the two different? I am using the shoes for Cross Country

I am such a huge fan of Mizuno! I'm interested in purchasing the new Sayonara (spelling?) but I'm also curious about the Saucony Kinvara, how are the two different? I am using the shoes for Cross Country

Thanks!

(If anyone can answer my question it would be greatly appreciated)

Good to hear from you. Your spelling of the Sayonara is correct. The naming is a little internal thing at Mizuno as we used to have a racing shoe many years ago called the Wave Good Bye and this is a play on that. How does the Sayonara compare with the Kinvara? It isn't fair me to compare Mizunos with other brands for two reasons (1) I am highly biased and (2) I very rarely wear another brand anymore. What I can tell you is the Sayonara is very light, has a bit of support and a very quick heel to toe transition. It has good cushioning and a nice gripping outsole. The heel ramp is 10 mm. IMHO it is a great l/w trainer-racer, especially if you are relatively fast, efficient and don't want your shoe to slow you down.

Currently, I clock in around 50 miles a week running. Working towards some half marathons (improved speed - at about a 2 hour 15 min completion time right now) towards the end of the year. I am 6', weigh 226 currently and expect to drop another 30 within the next 6 months (a far cry from the 306 I weighed in at back in February). I live in the middle of no where, so getting to a run shoe store is not an easy task. After blowing through pairs of cheap shoes, I ended up getting a pair of Creation 13s, with I have about 320 miles on right now. They fit wonderfully and have done me very well. Haven't had any feet, ankle, leg issues at all.

Since they are closing in on their life expectancy I figure, I needed to go ahead and order up some new ones. I figured these have done me well for my daily running that I would get another pair.

But my question... any suggestion on a pair of more race oriented shoes for breaking in and actually using during my official runs. I was looking at the Sayonara (I know I am still heavy, but the weight is going to drop still rapidly). Would those be a good pair to get and start breaking in? Is there another one that might be a better fit for the short term?

Before I even get going, you are my hero. That is awesome. I can only imagine how difficult that must be. To your questions, I would stick with the Creation 14s. Since you have done well with them, no reason to switch. Should you get a more race-oriented shoe for the half? I don't think so. At least not right now. IMHO, the best shoe for you to wear in the half is the shoe you are training in...the Creation. If it's worn out or has 2-300 miles on them before the half, get another pair of the Creation. A lighter shoe is certainly a faster shoe and even though the Sayonara is a terrific shoe, it is probably too light for you at the present time. It won't make an appreciable difference in your race and a safcer choice is stick with works.If you do want to try a lighter shoe but with adequate cushioning for a man of your size, would recommend either the Wave Rider or Wave Enigma--both are lighter than the Creation but still cushioned enough.

Thank you much! I'll stick with the Creations for now and just evaluate something else further down the road. Hopefully this thread or something like it is still open.

One other question... I have started thinking about adding some runs out on a local trail out here. Nothing major or rough. Walking it in the past really wasn't that much worse then the condition of the roads out here I normally run on.

Would the Creations work for light trail running? Are there any other shoes that are better for trail?

Considering the split midsole from the mid of the shoe to the heal, I wouldn't want to use them on the trail simply because rocks and other debris could get lodged in there and potentially break the shoe.

Currently, I clock in around 50 miles a week running. Working towards some half marathons (improved speed - at about a 2 hour 15 min completion time right now) towards the end of the year. I am 6', weigh 226 currently and expect to drop another 30 within the next 6 months (a far cry from the 306 I weighed in at back in February). I live in the middle of no where, so getting to a run shoe store is not an easy task. After blowing through pairs of cheap shoes, I ended up getting a pair of Creation 13s, with I have about 320 miles on right now. They fit wonderfully and have done me very well. Haven't had any feet, ankle, leg issues at all.

Since they are closing in on their life expectancy I figure, I needed to go ahead and order up some new ones. I figured these have done me well for my daily running that I would get another pair.

But my question... any suggestion on a pair of more race oriented shoes for breaking in and actually using during my official runs. I was looking at the Sayonara (I know I am still heavy, but the weight is going to drop still rapidly). Would those be a good pair to get and start breaking in? Is there another one that might be a better fit for the short term?

Before I even get going, you are my hero. That is awesome. I can only imagine how difficult that must be. To your questions, I would stick with the Creation 14s. Since you have done well with them, no reason to switch. Should you get a more race-oriented shoe for the half? I don't think so. At least not right now. IMHO, the best shoe for you to wear in the half is the shoe you are training in...the Creation. If it's worn out or has 2-300 miles on them before the half, get another pair of the Creation. A lighter shoe is certainly a faster shoe and even though the Sayonara is a terrific shoe, it is probably too light for you at the present time. It won't make an appreciable difference in your race and a safcer choice is stick with works.If you do want to try a lighter shoe but with adequate cushioning for a man of your size, would recommend either the Wave Rider or Wave Enigma--both are lighter than the Creation but still cushioned enough.

Thank you much! I'll stick with the Creations for now and just evaluate something else further down the road. Hopefully this thread or something like it is still open.

One other question... I have started thinking about adding some runs out on a local trail out here. Nothing major or rough. Walking it in the past really wasn't that much worse then the condition of the roads out here I normally run on.

Would the Creations work for light trail running? Are there any other shoes that are better for trail?

Depends on the trail. Many trails are really just dirt roads and if that's the case, the Creation's fine. If it's rocky and there is loose rock and shale, a better shoe would be the Mizuno Wave Ascend.

Have a question about the Wave EVO Cursoris. I have had them for about 4 month.I switch to them from Vibram five fingers. I have never been able to get used to them and now I am having pain on the side of my foot after each run. It only lasts a few minutes and it is only on one side. Could it just be that my feet are too wide for the shoes? Thank you!

Have a question about the Wave EVO Cursoris. I have had them for about 4 month.I switch to them from Vibram five fingers. I have never been able to get used to them and now I am having pain on the side of my foot after each run. It only lasts a few minutes and it is only on one side. Could it just be that my feet are too wide for the shoes? Thank you!

It could be. Hard to tell. But the fact that you think they didn't fit well probably means it doesn't. Sorry about that.

So I just got some new Enigma 3's but I have a question. The bottom laces are angled at almost a 45 degree angle. These are brand new out of the box. Are they supposed to be this way?

For comparisons sake, below is a pic of Creation 13's with about 225 miles on them:

Yes, the laces are angled slightly. Are you experiencing a problem?

Those angles are more than "slightly", I think. None of my other Mizuno shoes, which I have been purchasing for over a decade now, have laces that are angled in this way. ALL of them are straight across. When I compare these Enigmas to all my other 'Zuno's, the difference is pretty dramatic.

I have not run in them yet, so I don't know if this will cause a problem. I just wanted to make sure that the design of how these laces are angled was done on purpose and if so, why..........before I took them out for a run.

This change could actually be an improvement, but it was so obvious when I first unboxed them, that I thought I'd ask here before I took them out for a run. Was it a purposeful design or was there something misaligned on the production floor?

So I just got some new Enigma 3's but I have a question. The bottom laces are angled at almost a 45 degree angle. These are brand new out of the box. Are they supposed to be this way?

For comparisons sake, below is a pic of Creation 13's with about 225 miles on them:

Yes, the laces are angled slightly. Are you experiencing a problem?

Those angles are more than "slightly", I think. None of my other Mizuno shoes, which I have been purchasing for over a decade now, have laces that are angled in this way. ALL of them are straight across. When I compare these Enigmas to all my other 'Zuno's, the difference is pretty dramatic.

I have not run in them yet, so I don't know if this will cause a problem. I just wanted to make sure that the design of how these laces are angled was done on purpose and if so, why..........before I took them out for a run.

This change could actually be an improvement, but it was so obvious when I first unboxed them, that I thought I'd ask here before I took them out for a run. Was it a purposeful design or was there something misaligned on the production floor?

It's just a slightly different lacing pattern that isn't limited to Enigma. Better fit. No mistake at all. It's fairly minor and though the fit on the Enigma is noticeably better (at least for me it is), the lacing doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

I'm wearing the Creation 14 which has the angled laces and it's a bit strange but doesn't cause a problem. In fact the fit of the Creation is awesome - every version I think the fit is as good as it will get and yet every version it improves slightly. Looking forward to the 15s. The new lacing angle seems to be becoming common for Mizuno - haven't seen the Sayonara in the flesh yet, but it looks to have it too.

A note back from customer support after sending them a pic of these laces:

"Thank you for contacting Mizuno USA. The new Enigma 3's use a newer version of our technology, the DynamotionFit, which helps relieves the stress the foot naturally places on footwear..basically making them more anatomical."

Glad to hear that was done on purpose. Because it looked so radically different than any other running shoe I ever had, I had to inquire.

A note back from customer support after sending them a pic of these laces:

"Thank you for contacting Mizuno USA. The new Enigma 3's use a newer version of our technology, the DynamotionFit, which helps relieves the stress the foot naturally places on footwear..basically making them more anatomical."

Glad to hear that was done on purpose. Because it looked so radically different than any other running shoe I ever had, I had to inquire.

I'm wearing the Creation 14 which has the angled laces and it's a bit strange but doesn't cause a problem. In fact the fit of the Creation is awesome - every version I think the fit is as good as it will get and yet every version it improves slightly. Looking forward to the 15s. The new lacing angle seems to be becoming common for Mizuno - haven't seen the Sayonara in the flesh yet, but it looks to have it too.

I'm wearing the Creation 14 which has the angled laces and it's a bit strange but doesn't cause a problem. In fact the fit of the Creation is awesome - every version I think the fit is as good as it will get and yet every version it improves slightly. Looking forward to the 15s. The new lacing angle seems to be becoming common for Mizuno - haven't seen the Sayonara in the flesh yet, but it looks to have it too.

Creation 15 is due in December. Lighter, better fit and comfort, more cushioned forefoot, smoother ride.

The Enigma 3 isn't on the website because it is only being sold at running specialty stores and not in large sporting goods chain or on the web. If you have any questions about the specs, I'd be glad to answer them.

I have a question about the Enigma 3 sizing. Did anything change in comparison to the Enigma 2? In the 2 I had to size up a half.

I´m just coming back from a run in the Cursoris and I love³ that shoe! I wear these two times a week on 9-13miles in the woods over stickes and stones and they have never let me down. The fit is awesome, it´s one of the rare shoes that accomodate my wide forefoot without being loose in the heel. I love how breathable they are and the bouncy cushioning. Being a trail runner I love that they are so low to the ground but still protective enough, so that stones don´t cause too much discomfort. The only complaint I have is that the durable rubber in the forefoot is in the wrong place (for my running style). I have to replace the shoe after around 200miles because the rubber on the outside and center of the forefoot is almost gone. The areas that are covered by that durable black rubber (medial side of the forefoot) look untouched.

I would be very happy if the next version of the Cursoris also would have durable rubber on the outside and center of the forefoot. For longer runs I would prefer a little bit more cushioning. Maybe there is space in the Evo lineup for one model above the Cursoris with more cushioning and durability. For a forefoot runner like me these zero drop shoes are perfect.

How would you assess the cushioning and fit of the Ferus in comparison to the Cursoris?

I have a question about the Enigma 3 sizing. Did anything change in comparison to the Enigma 2? In the 2 I had to size up a half.

I´m just coming back from a run in the Cursoris and I love³ that shoe! I wear these two times a week on 9-13miles in the woods over stickes and stones and they have never let me down. The fit is awesome, it´s one of the rare shoes that accomodate my wide forefoot without being loose in the heel. I love how breathable they are and the bouncy cushioning. Being a trail runner I love that they are so low to the ground but still protective enough, so that stones don´t cause too much discomfort. The only complaint I have is that the durable rubber in the forefoot is in the wrong place (for my running style). I have to replace the shoe after around 200miles because the rubber on the outside and center of the forefoot is almost gone. The areas that are covered by that durable black rubber (medial side of the forefoot) look untouched.

I would be very happy if the next version of the Cursoris also would have durable rubber on the outside and center of the forefoot. For longer runs I would prefer a little bit more cushioning. Maybe there is space in the Evo lineup for one model above the Cursoris with more cushioning and durability. For a forefoot runner like me these zero drop shoes are perfect.

How would you assess the cushioning and fit of the Ferus in comparison to the Cursoris?

Thank you and have a nice weekend

I would stick with the same size in the Enigma 3 as the 2. The Ferus is slightly heavier than the Cursoris, but the cushioning is approximately the same. But much better traction for trails.

Hi MsG. Recently tried Wave Alchemy 12's - after being a stability shoe person pt had a major injury - so thought maybe needed more support. I have a medium arch, do overpronate, after running in the Alchemy's - my arches were sore for a short time. Is this normal? Just want to make sure I don't have TOo MUCH support?

I have a question about the Enigma 3 sizing. Did anything change in comparison to the Enigma 2? In the 2 I had to size up a half.

I would stick with the same size in the Enigma 3 as the 2.

Ummmm, a bit of a different experience here. I've been running in the Creation 13's for awhile now and they fit perfectly. When I got the Enigma 3's in the same size, they were bigger, by about a half a size. I then when to Holabrid Sports http://www.holabirdsports.com/...rycyber-yellow.html, and used their ShoeFitr program and lo and behold, it suggested to go down a half a size with the Enigma 3's, which mirrored my experience.

In comparing the Enigma 2's with the 3's, it's suggesting to go down a half a size as well.

I know that some of you may not have had good experiences using this fit-program, but ever since it came out, I've found it to be spot on.

Hi Mizuno guy! I have been faithfully running in WaveRider 15's for a year and a half now. They are the only shoe I have worn since my first pair. When the 16's came out I continued to buy 15's after I hit 450 miles on them because I couldn't bare to change a good thing. After all, they got me through 2 marathon training cycles and countless other races Anyway, my current pair is almost at the 450 mark, so I am going to try the 16's next. Since it is my birthday next week, I am also thinking of getting a pair of Sayonaras so I can rotate shoes throughout this marathon training cycle. I usually stick with one pair and use it until I can't anymore. Do you think I will be happy with the Sayonaras? I would use them for my track workouts and other faster runs and keep the Wave Rider 16's for longer runs and recoveries. Are people wearing Sayonaras for long runs too? Thanks in advance!

"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I've got promises to keep. And miles to go before I sleep. And miles to go before I sleep." (Robert Frost)

Anyway, my current pair is almost at the 450 mark, so I am going to try the 16's next. Since it is my birthday next week, I am also thinking of getting a pair of Sayonaras so I can rotate shoes throughout this marathon training cycle. I usually stick with one pair and use it until I can't anymore. Do you think I will be happy with the Sayonaras? Are people wearing Sayonaras for long runs too?

Hey WrestlingMomRuns!

If you like WR15, you'll love 16. The only differene we made was with the upper of the shoe. Same exact fit, same exact ride underfoot, but the upper is less bulky, fewer overlays and nearly a full ounce lighter! No worries there.

Adding a 2nd shoe for speed-work/races is a solid idea... and I think Wave Sayonara would for sure be the best option. If you are doing long runs in Rider and happy with it, I'd honestly not change a thing.... but to answer the question, yea... I have been doing my long runs in them and love it. But I also always ran long in the Elixir so it's closer to what I tend to run in.

Hi Mizuno guy! I have been faithfully running in WaveRider 15's for a year and a half now. They are the only shoe I have worn since my first pair. When the 16's came out I continued to buy 15's after I hit 450 miles on them because I couldn't bare to change a good thing. After all, they got me through 2 marathon training cycles and countless other races Anyway, my current pair is almost at the 450 mark, so I am going to try the 16's next. Since it is my birthday next week, I am also thinking of getting a pair of Sayonaras so I can rotate shoes throughout this marathon training cycle. I usually stick with one pair and use it until I can't anymore. Do you think I will be happy with the Sayonaras? I would use them for my track workouts and other faster runs and keep the Wave Rider 16's for longer runs and recoveries. Are people wearing Sayonaras for long runs too? Thanks in advance!

Yes, I agree with most of your specific questions. As others have replied (I've been on vacation), the WR 16 is a very similar shoe to the 15--with some improvements--and almost no one I have had contact with who has liked the 15 hasn't also liked the 16 equally..or more. So you are on pretty safe ground switching to the 16. As for the Sayonara, it is certainly lighter and a 'quicker' shoe than the WR 15 or 16 but it is not so substantially different (in terms of feel, fit or responsiveness) that it will take a major adaptation period. In fact, the Sayonara was made for runners like you who want a second shoe for tempo runs, interval days and/or racing. I am one of those runners who doesn't like to wear a lighter shoe such as the Sayonara on daily runs--I prefer the Inspire or Enigma--but I have always preferred a l/w trainer for my tempo day. Also, I do not wear racing shoes for races but I have found over the years the l/w trainer-racers such as the Elixir, Precision and now the Sayonara work just as well for me and offer me better protection and support than a conventional racing shoe. Long runs? Sure. The Sayonara has no problem in providing cushioning and a bit of support on long runs. Hope you like it and happy birthday.

I have a question about the Enigma 3 sizing. Did anything change in comparison to the Enigma 2? In the 2 I had to size up a half.

I would stick with the same size in the Enigma 3 as the 2.

Ummmm, a bit of a different experience here. I've been running in the Creation 13's for awhile now and they fit perfectly. When I got the Enigma 3's in the same size, they were bigger, by about a half a size. I then when to Holabrid Sports http://www.holabirdsports.com/...rycyber-yellow.html, and used their ShoeFitr program and lo and behold, it suggested to go down a half a size with the Enigma 3's, which mirrored my experience.

In comparing the Enigma 2's with the 3's, it's suggesting to go down a half a size as well.

I know that some of you may not have had good experiences using this fit-program, but ever since it came out, I've found it to be spot on.

Thanks for input. That's why I am always hesitant to comment on sizing. We are not all perfect size 10 or 10.5 or whatever. I might be a 10.2 (if measured) or someone else might be 10.3 or 10.4. What fits me might not fit you. Obviously I realize so many runners buy on the web and need guidance on which size to buy but it's very tough. I wear Enigma 3 and have stuck with same size which has worked fine for me.....

Hi MsG. Recently tried Wave Alchemy 12's - after being a stability shoe person pt had a major injury - so thought maybe needed more support. I have a medium arch, do overpronate, after running in the Alchemy's - my arches were sore for a short time. Is this normal? Just want to make sure I don't have TOo MUCH support?

Probably not. It's unlikely your sore arches are due to too much support. What is possible is you just might need a few extra days of running in the Alchemy to adapt to them after switching from the Adrenaline. I'm guessing here because I certainly don't know for sure, but the Wave Plates in the Alchemy might be a bit firm for you at first which could be the cause of the soreness. I think if you go a little more gradual--either shorter runs for a few days and/or walks--that should be sufficient to allow your feet and arches time to adapt.

Hey Mizuno Shoe Guy - I was browsing the Running Warehouse and saw the Wave Hitogami. Where does this fit into the lineup? I'm a huge fan of the Sayonara and have been using that pretty much exclusively for my Chicago Marathon training at this point.

Hey Mizuno Shoe Guy - I was browsing the Running Warehouse and saw the Wave Hitogami. Where does this fit into the lineup? I'm a huge fan of the Sayonara and have been using that pretty much exclusively for my Chicago Marathon training at this point.

The Hitogami is a new racing flat being introduced in January. Reluctant to say too much about it right now. See you in Chicago.

I have run in Nike Free +3's but would never run a half or full in them and usually limited to max of 10 miles or so just because of the lack of cushioning for longer distances (and was told to keep it around 6 miles or so in them).

On the Sayonara - are they made to run longer distances? I just got a pair and have done a couple of low mileage (4-5 miles) in them and am loving them. Wondering if they were made for longer distance running and what the cushioning level is in them.

Hi, I have worn the Elixir in the past and loved the light weight firm ride. But my problem was bad IT band pain. I always blamed the Elixir even though I was running in the Mirage and the Adrenaline also.

Currently I run in Adidas Boost, Brooks ST5 Racer and Brooks Ravena. I don't like the Ravena at all and the Boost really hurt my knees so I limit myself to once a week in them. I think I need some support but not a lot or that IT flares up. At least I think the over support flares it up. After getting away from Adrenalines and Elixr it sort of went away.

So, I cannot run totally neutral. I need a firm light weight shoe. The ST5 is a great shoe but can't do all miles in them. I was wondering if the Inspire might work. Or would it be too much like the Elixir and flare up the IT. I was hoping it might be better than Ravena or Adrenaline as I think it is lighter than both.

I have run in Nike Free +3's but would never run a half or full in them and usually limited to max of 10 miles or so just because of the lack of cushioning for longer distances (and was told to keep it around 6 miles or so in them).

On the Sayonara - are they made to run longer distances? I just got a pair and have done a couple of low mileage (4-5 miles) in them and am loving them. Wondering if they were made for longer distance running and what the cushioning level is in them.

Yes, absolutely. Admittedly I haven't run in the Nike Free, but the Sayonara definitely has more cushioning to them. The Sayonara is not a minimalist shoe with minimal cushioning. Rather, it is a l/w training shoe with ample cushioning and durability for the long run.

Hi, I have worn the Elixir in the past and loved the light weight firm ride. But my problem was bad IT band pain. I always blamed the Elixir even though I was running in the Mirage and the Adrenaline also.

Currently I run in Adidas Boost, Brooks ST5 Racer and Brooks Ravena. I don't like the Ravena at all and the Boost really hurt my knees so I limit myself to once a week in them. I think I need some support but not a lot or that IT flares up. At least I think the over support flares it up. After getting away from Adrenalines and Elixr it sort of went away.

So, I cannot run totally neutral. I need a firm light weight shoe. The ST5 is a great shoe but can't do all miles in them. I was wondering if the Inspire might work. Or would it be too much like the Elixir and flare up the IT. I was hoping it might be better than Ravena or Adrenaline as I think it is lighter than both.

Help. Thanks

Have you heard of too much support bothering the IT band?

Have I ever heard of too much support being....well too much? Sure. It happens. Certainly not as much as too little support causing issues.Would the Inspire work for you? Sounds like it could. The Inspire is relatively light (relative to other support shoes), but has just enough support for moderate OPs. It certainly isn't rigid or overly controlling. Might be a better bet for you than the Elixir.