…Well this thread has gone down hill sense last I was here. Reading this 9 out of 10 of the people in this thread are immature kids.

In an attempt to bring this back in an adult discussion and not a childish spam-fight on the internet, I’ll go ahead and address everything I think needs to be directly commented upon. (A lot of these things are in need of further elaboration or scrutiny, as individuals seem to have been to consumed with what insulting and condescending comment they will say next to put much thought into their posts now.)

We as people do not have the right to decide what life is, and who’s life is and is not valuable enough to keep or destroy. Although we are completely welcome to our own personal points of views these are not meant to be put out and into action. When they are you run into Hitler and Jack the Ripper. The former slaughtered Jews because he decided they were imperfect, the latter murdered sluts and whores and other people who he probably (as a character who was obviously educated and upper class) thought of as plagued peons.

Now, there are many ways to argue against that. It’s in the woman’s body so then the other human life that is living within her gets no rights and no longer has the value of a human (for various debated reasons) and cannot defend his/herself. Or the Child would live a horrible life if allowed to live. There are more, and I’ll address as many as I can.

Lets take the latter of the listed first.

People often use the idea that a child will be born with defects and thus be handicapped for life, or wont be loved by parents. Naturally people can counter the second of these with adoption, but this is often rencountered with “But children put up for adoption often don’t live fulfilled lives.” (this is something that has actually been said in this thread.) However, if we accept this then we are also saying:

1. That the life of adoptive children looses meaning because they are unfulfilled.
2. That the life of a handicapped or orphaned child is literally so miserable that it would actually be better off not to live at all.
3. Anybody put up for adoption or born handicapped should be put down like a dog to save them from their fate worse than death.

From my standpoint these are all of these are positively ridiculous. Yet, from what I’ve read, these have all been suggested at one point or another, but in more eloquent ways. Once we get bluntly down to the core of their meanings, however, these profound statements are directly unveiled as above. If you agree with the second and third then you should speak to Helen Keller. If you agree with the first then you need professional help… Whatever the case is, a mother does not have the right to decide rather or not her child’s life is valuable enough to preserve.

We also use rape, pregnancy, pain, and child birth to fight for the murder. However, these are merely selfish excuses. True, no woman deserves to have to go through a pregnancy as a result of rape. No mother deserves to have go through pregnancy alone, or to have the reminded of their tragedy. However, this being said, nobody deserves to be killed. No unborn child deserves to be slaughtered because their cowardly mother was not strong enough to go through with it. (Of course in such a situation I’d be just as much of a coward myself, but my integrity, fortitude, and general morality are not in question here.) Also, abortion is itself a painful operation, and can lead to just as many complications as actual childbirth. It can rupture and damage a woman in ways that will cause her excruciating agonies long after birth pains would.

Which leads me on to my next point. It’s the woman’s body. She should have the right to decide what to do with it, right? Wrong! It’s the child’s body within the woman. The woman does not have rights over the child’s life, only her own. If she goes out and kills herself she also murders the child. An unborn fetus has complete human rights, as even abortion supporters who are mature and honest will admit. (Read Judith. J. Thomson’s “A defense of abortion” for evidence of this.

Abortion is glorified murder. Perhaps murder with understandable reasoning behind it, but murder none the less. It’s a selfish mother deciding: A. Because her child is not yet fully developed his/her life is not worth keeping. B. Because the child causes her pain she should not have to take care of it. C. Because her child is the child of rape she doesn’t deserve to live! ( This kind of logic leads to the slaughter of unfortunate bastard children like me)

These are all absurd and do not in any way justify the slaughter of thousands of unborn babies like that which we are seeing. It’s ominous that so many people so adamantly defend abortion. Sense when is it that an individual has the right to decide rather or not somebody’s life is not valuable enough to preserve because it is under developed or because it is a inconvenience or pain to them? That would be like me going and shooting the president of my company in the face because the way he runs his business gets me paid me, or hurts the economy. Because it makes things harder for me, or puts me through pain. This is not right.

Then there is also the “The mother will die if she gives birth debate” However, this being said who’s to say the mother’s life is more valuable than the innocent infants? I also like the following quote:

I have been reading about abortion recently and came across a ‘thought experiment’ used by Judith Jarvis Thomson about an expanding baby. The scenario is that you're in your house when your baby starts expanding rapidly. You realise that you have no chance of getting out and the only way to survive is to pop and kill the baby. The idea is that this is an analogy for mothers who will die if an abortion is not performed i.e. is it ok to kill in this form of self-defence? These thought experiments are designed to provoke a moral attitude which can then be applied to discover your true feelings on a particular issue. My instant reaction was that yes, it was ok to pop the baby in order to survive and therefore I believe abortion is ok if it saves the life of the mother. However, imagine that the baby is now an analogy not for abortion but for a virus like AIDS, by the same thought experiment it could be argued that saying yes would justify killing everyone who had AIDS in order to save everyone else in the population. Killing in a form of self-defense. This clearly would not be moral. My question is then, how accurate are these thought experiments if the same answer can provoke the same gut reaction, lead us to the same argument which can be applied in two different situations, one of which is arguably moral and the other which is completely, undoubtedly immoral?

I could go on but I think this has been quite controversial enough. I’m going to get peached at so…

Well, everything I stated is MY PERSONAL view or OPINION. It is not fact and I do not mean to suggest that it is. I state some facts within my opinion to defend it, however, these do not necessarily mean my opinion is also fact. They can support my opinion and explain it, however, they may also be taken in text such as to support other points of view.

I stand by my right to have and express my opinion to the end, though you are all free to your own clashing opinions.

Also, people, before you judge other peoples adamancy and abstinence on this topic try and put yourselves in their shoes.

On my side of it this is a big deal. For me it’s a debate on the value of life, and I’m pro-life all the way.

For the opposition it is a debate on the value of freedom of choice. It’s a clash of perception between the two sides, but either way your looking at very important things that people -should not- be quickly swayed from. You understand what I am trying to say?

we may not generalized it but then shit always happens... we may not dictate the outcome of the live of these unfortunate ones but then looking at the society's norms, being an unwanted child is like living as an outcast... as an example, being handicapped and/or adopted is like a big deal... most esp the kids, they make fun of those who are handicapped/adopted... and in the first place, procreation is made out of love... even though abortion takes away a life, it's a matter of practicality...

i dunno man, abortion is a really complicated thing... it's a battle between idealism and practicalism... gosh, this sum kind of debate makes my head ache....
i'm really confused where should i really stand......

bibbLe...I really hope you didn't think I was serious. Abortion is a pretty heavy topic I was just trying to add a bit of levity. I'm just glad that some people got the reference. And hey...like Swift said...babies aren't just for eating...they makes a fine pair of gloves.

In the past 30 years, crime rate has gone down and abortion rates have gone up. My take on it is that the two are directly related. More criminals are getting abortions and having less children while the children of the productive citizens live on.

bibbLe...I really hope you didn't think I was serious. Abortion is a pretty heavy topic I was just trying to add a bit of levity. I'm just glad that some people got the reference. And hey...like Swift said...babies aren't just for eating...they makes a fine pair of gloves.

don't worry.. i did not think you were serious about the modest proposal...

In the past 30 years, crime rate has gone down and abortion rates have gone up. My take on it is that the two are directly related. More criminals are getting abortions and having less children while the children of the productive citizens live on.

….Where do you live, Sweden? Crimes going up dude… At least it is here dude… And abortion is going up too… Abortion does not benefit society in anyway except the money paid to the medical businesses and the money taxed from it…

One it doesn't matter what anyone wants but the one who has to carry the the child the women has to take 9 months out of her life to care for the child not the boy or anyone other the woman its her body her choice period, I think the law and no one else should have a say in it

and from what every one saying if it has chromos or w.e sperm is a living organism that many men kill millions some on a daily bases...its a part of a human is it not

its funny how majority of anti abortion are men :huh:, b/c they know what its like to give birth

And for religious ppl it kills me, one second you say god plans out everyones life and god knows all then don't you think god planned and knew the baby wouldn't see the light of day...make up your minds, (ex. watch jesus camp or w.e)

I only think its wrong for an abortion if a woman uses it as a form of birth control, like more then one abortion is like ok what are you doing

Also its not easy for a woman to make the choice and if she does its for a good reason, you can never truly walk in anothers shoes to dare judge anyone...

A. You don't know if she did decide to not have an aboration if she would lose it any way, or it would be still born, or w.e

B. Every one says give kids up for adoption like thats the best thing for a child...Like they all get good homes and live happily ever after...please...why not kill it b4 it can feel pain or even develops a brain or senses

C. Its Illgel to abort a "baby" after a certain point, when its actually consider a human child so dunno what ppl are going on about what makes a human no one complains when they are cracking open a baby chick and serving it for breakfast, b/c yolk is no more a baby chick then a human "baby" inside its egg...

D. I love how ppl like to put plasma before live walking talking human beings

E. Great example why abortion isnt so bad. Just on the news a girl had her baby stabbed it in the neck put it in a plastic bag whilst still alive, and hid it under her bed. Why would someone act in such a way b/c of ppl like you who make women feel like they are less then human if they don't want to carry a child for w.e ever reason they got pregnant it doesnt matter point is its their body and you can't force them to go through the motions if they don't want to, pregancy is no walk in the park a womans body goes through so much that no man could fathom...and not every woman is a pez dispenser

and then I've heard sob stories about ppl who can't have kids, uhm how is that the other womens problems, its called save up money and adopt, the woman having an abortion didnt mess up your junk so ya...not her problem

if society wasnt so asshole ish about whats right and wrong when it come to this issue then actual live babies wouldnt be killed like ones who come out the womb breathing and crying, just to be killed b/c the woman cracks under pressure...or left in a dumpster, they are made to feel like whores in the first place for getting pregnant, and ppl wonder why they do things like that

Its no excuse, but the mind is a fragile thing...

I have seriously strong feelings on this subject I've known girls that have had abortions and it was hard on them, and i hate a$$holes who think they know what they are talking about, assuming oh you spread your legs you get what you get...yeah I don't think so, a man gets a boner even if he doesnt want to have sex so does that mean he was asking to be raped? some ppl honestly...everything is a sn sin...

abortion should be illegal everywhere!!! it is murder. the circumstances don't matter, the question is "is it moral" and the answer is "no." many people say that rape justifies abortion. many women say that the abortion felt like when they were raped. some man they had never met before is hurting them. women are in terrible condition afterwards too. they are usally hunched over, and cant walk and need to vomit. the word "pro choice" makes no sense either. because what choice are they talking about? they purchased that name for ALOT of money. same with "planned parrenthood" they should have called it pro abortion and planned death. thoes names are much more truthful.

We also use rape, pregnancy, pain, and child birth to fight for the murder. However, these are merely selfish excuses. True, no woman deserves to have to go through a pregnancy as a result of rape. No mother deserves to have go through pregnancy alone, or to have the reminded of their tragedy. However, this being said, nobody deserves to be killed. No unborn child deserves to be slaughtered because their cowardly mother was not strong enough to go through with it. (Of course in such a situation I’d be just as much of a coward myself, but my integrity, fortitude, and general morality are not in question here.) Also, abortion is itself a painful operation, and can lead to just as many complications as actual childbirth. It can rupture and damage a woman in ways that will cause her excruciating agonies long after birth pains would.

Which leads me on to my next point. It’s the woman’s body. She should have the right to decide what to do with it, right? Wrong! It’s the child’s body within the woman. The woman does not have rights over the child’s life, only her own. If she goes out and kills herself she also murders the child. An unborn fetus has complete human rights, as even abortion supporters who are mature and honest will admit. (Read Judith. J. Thomson’s “A defense of abortion” for evidence of this.

Abortion is glorified murder. Perhaps murder with understandable reasoning behind it, but murder none the less. It’s a selfish mother deciding: A. Because her child is not yet fully developed his/her life is not worth keeping. B. Because the child causes her pain she should not have to take care of it. C. Because her child is the child of rape she doesn’t deserve to live! ( This kind of logic leads to the slaughter of unfortunate bastard children like me)

These are all absurd and do not in any way justify the slaughter of thousands of unborn babies like that which we are seeing. It’s ominous that so many people so adamantly defend abortion. Sense when is it that an individual has the right to decide rather or not somebody’s life is not valuable enough to preserve because it is under developed or because it is a inconvenience or pain to them? That would be like me going and shooting the president of my company in the face because the way he runs his business gets me paid me, or hurts the economy. Because it makes things harder for me, or puts me through pain. This is not right.

Then there is also the “The mother will die if she gives birth debate” However, this being said who’s to say the mother’s life is more valuable than the innocent infants? I also like the following quote:

I have been reading about abortion recently and came across a ‘thought experiment’ used by Judith Jarvis Thomson about an expanding baby. The scenario is that you're in your house when your baby starts expanding rapidly. You realise that you have no chance of getting out and the only way to survive is to pop and kill the baby. The idea is that this is an analogy for mothers who will die if an abortion is not performed i.e. is it ok to kill in this form of self-defence? These thought experiments are designed to provoke a moral attitude which can then be applied to discover your true feelings on a particular issue. My instant reaction was that yes, it was ok to pop the baby in order to survive and therefore I believe abortion is ok if it saves the life of the mother. However, imagine that the baby is now an analogy not for abortion but for a virus like AIDS, by the same thought experiment it could be argued that saying yes would justify killing everyone who had AIDS in order to save everyone else in the population. Killing in a form of self-defense. This clearly would not be moral. My question is then, how accurate are these thought experiments if the same answer can provoke the same gut reaction, lead us to the same argument which can be applied in two different situations, one of which is arguably moral and the other which is completely, undoubtedly immoral?

Well, I submit that you have formed the most well thought out and executed argument/post made in this thread. I hate to have to be on the other said but as you said towards the end of your post, neither said should be easily swayed.

I think that most of what you said is very true, it is over used and shouldn't be used unless absolutely nessecary. And yes, unfortuniately it is nessecary. Because you can outlaw it if you want but you can't stop it. You'll just start finding women bleeding to death in alleys or dying from infections because they went to a dirty unequipped back alley clinic. And if you think I'm being dramatic and I've seen to many movies will I got news for you; Movies don't even come close to the horrors that real people do to each other. My mother is a emergency room nurse at St. Vincents Hospital, in Mannhattan. Dead in the heart of NYC, I will spare you the stories I wish i didn't know but, let's say there are many nights were my mother doesn't sleep because of what she sees. Point being, making it illegal or saying how horrible it is doesn't change anything. If a woman feels it nessecary to get rid of her child, she is going to find a way. And while no way is a good way, there option to get it done in a clean and safe place.

Life is not black and white, it's not even shades of grey, it's the technicolor dreamcoat and it has a strange way of giving some the wrong end of the stick. Your logic stands up on paper, but in the real world there what we call circumstances. Even in court there are many circumstances in which murder is not considered a crime. I have known three girls who have had abortions the closest being my sister.

Her first conception was at sixteen. After countless hours of talking and crying she decided to have an abortion. Two weeks after she came out of her room for the first time that wasn't going to the bathroom to shit or puke. I've never heard tears like that. Two years later, she gets pregant again. This times she doesn't even consider abortion. She is going to have her baby, she so excited talking about all the things she's going to but and do with the baby. How she's going to to be a mother. The baby comes and after about six months the sparkle has worn off and the reality of childcare has set in. She starts passing the baby off to anyone who would watch her. At times with people i wouldn't trust to borrow a dvd. One time I came home to find that the people my sister had left with the kid had left and she was alone because her ten minute trip to the store had been over three hours.

So a month or two later and she meets a guy from N. Carolina. A month after that he was her fiance and they were moving down to carolina together. She asked me and my mother if we'd take care of her for like a month or two until she got a steady job and a place to stay. Then she was going to come back pick her up and start their new life together. My neice was nine months old. The next time she saw her mother she was 7. She'll be 9 in january and me and my mother are still taking care of her. I was 16 then, and I became a father. despite no one ever calling me her father and repeatedly being told I'm her uncle for as long as I can remember she still to this day slips and calls me daddy sometimes. And to tell you the truth she is better off this way. But even I will admit I was not ready or able at sixteen to care for a child and I do beleive my neice has suffered for it. I think she could have been brought up better. And my story is the happy alternitive. In the not so happy version, the baby ends up in a dumpster dead because the mother tried to have it without anyone knowing

I said it in my first post, it is easy to be self-righteous, morally superior, sitting in the cheap seats where is has no effect on you personally. Even you personally said if faced with the choice you adamantly stated argument goes out the window and you would fold to the pressure. You claim it's glorified murder (in my opinion that makes it just like war, and people support that. but that's a different thread) and that all the excuses are irrelevant. So what's your excuse? What will make it right then? It being your personal problem and not someone elses? With all due respect you are a hypocrite. Yes you do have a100 percent right to state your opinion, if you are going to exercise that right so passionately you should have the conviction to stand by your words. But I think most people even on your side of the fence if they were honest with themselves would have to admit they would too.

I don't mean to harp on you but you had the most compelling arguement so I aimed at the top. I have nothing but respect for you and your argument, and I agree that this thread has few worthy contributions. So please don't take it wrong, I just wanted to have a good opponent.

oh, i have something to add. as the use of contraception goes up, the rate of people with stds goes up too. they are connected. because contraception was legalized, it led to abortion being legalized. also as abortion rates go up, crime, domestic violence goes up, etc. did you know that before contraception was on the market, there were only two stds? now there are more than 50. i hope that abortion is illegalized. in some countries, children under two months are being killed (it is abortion's next horrible step((unless abortion is stopped, that is likley to happen in more places)) because they are not "human" yet or dont have "souls" or "are not fully aware of themselves yet" that is completley unreasonable to kill them because of that! just because we cant ask the babies (in and out of the womb) if their death hurts or not, does not give us any right to kill them. the right to life takes priority over all other rights.

there are three reasons why people defend abortion:
1. they are ignorant- they do not know that it is a human life.
2. they know the truth but do not want to believe- they are stubborn for any reason.
3. they know and they don't care- self explanitory.
thats it. you prolife people made some real great arguements! i'll be sure to learn from them so i can use them! buh bye now!

oh, i have something to add. as the use of contraception goes up, the rate of people with stds goes up too. they are connected. because contraception was legalized, it led to abortion being legalized. also as abortion rates go up, crime, domestic violence goes up, etc. did you know that before contraception was on the market, there were only two stds? now there are more than 50. i hope that abortion is illegalized. in some countries, children under two months are being killed (it is abortion's next horrible step((unless abortion is stopped, that is likley to happen in more places)) because they are not "human" yet or dont have "souls" or "are not fully aware of themselves yet" that is completley unreasonable to kill them because of that! just because we cant ask the babies (in and out of the womb) if their death hurts or not, does not give us any right to kill them. the right to life takes priority over all other rights.

there are three reasons why people defend abortion:
1. they are ignorant- they do not know that it is a human life.
2. they know the truth but do not want to believe- they are stubborn for any reason.
3. they know and they don't care- self explanitory.
thats it. you prolife people made some real great arguements! i'll be sure to learn from them so i can use them! buh bye now!

Wow you should just stop really. You are relating completely unrelated things. The crime rate has nothing to due with abortion rate. Nor does the use of contraception promote the spread of stds. And check your history Stds have been around a long time syphillus,(sp?) gonerea, clamidia anf herpes have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years. One of the ceasars of rome, I think Nero died of syphillus.

Here's thre reasons why you are the ignorant one.

1. People make the argument because they do care. Just more about the lives that are already in progress rather than one that has not yet come to be. And what about quality of life? Your saying it's better for a baby to grow up in even the worst possible circumstance rather than be aborted? A child of two crack heads should be brought ino this world? So one day our prize parents get it into there head that there pretty little daughter could be used to get them drugs if they let the dealer fuck her. So then a baby is brought into the hospital and left by the parents who don't want to get busted and the doctors have to do emergency surgery to stop the internal bleeding that was caused when the wall between her tiny vagina and her anus was destroyed. This is ok by your book right? Because she had the right to that life. (BTW: TRUE STORY)

2. Have you ever even heard the word Zygote? There is time between conception and life. It take time for the fetus to become anything other than a mass of cells. It's not the best comparision but for a short period of time it's more like a growing fungus than a person. So which life matter?

3. I am glad you live in a black and white world. You should try living in the real one occasionally. If you want to find the stubborn one look in the mirror.