I have a crew going out the first of August. I want them to get a chance to practice preparing Philmont food using freezer bags. Does anyone have a source for Philmont meals? I checked Tooth of Time Traders but all they have on line is ice cream.

Contact Richmoor. You will be able to get a Scout discount for the suppers and other lunch/breakfast ingredients. If you go to www.philmontforum.com, you can get a list of the 2009 meals and ingredients as well as a list of nutrional information which includes the suppliers. You will be able to put together the breakfasts and lunches by purchasing most of the ingredients at your local grocery store and packaging them in plastic bags. Purchase the different bars (pro bar, lara bar, stinger gummies, etc.) online at amazon.com or other sources.

Richmoor also supplies some of the stuff for the breakfasts and lunches but you can substitute other similar things found at your grocery store. The kids will get the idea.

Joseph - If you want the 'real thing' you can order leftover meals directly from Philmont. At this point they may not have anything left, but might be worth an email or a phone call. Contact at the ranch is Pat Adams, Commissary Director. (padams at netbsa dot org or 505-376-2281 ext 252)Also, at one time I had a link to an on-line store that sold items exactly like what was used at Philmont - squeeze cheese, etc. Can't find it right now, I'll post it if I locate it.

Water required for Philmont food - use the packaging amounts?
on 12/03/2009 21:54:57 MST

I just received my Philmont food my troop is going to use for our shake down trips. I read that one troop only used 60% of the recommended water amount in their turkey bag cooking to eliminate the "runny" food.

We were hoping to rehydrate the food in the foil bags (ie. Al Geist method) that the food comes in and was wondering what is the consensus for the amount of water to use.

Re: Water required for Philmont food - use the packaging amounts?
on 12/04/2009 16:52:47 MST

> We were hoping to rehydrate the food in the foil bags > (ie. Al Geist method) that the food comes in and was > wondering what is the consensus for the amount of water to use.

Hi Ty,

We used the amount of water specified on the bag.(Note the food is divided into two foil bags so each bag gets half the water). In our pre-Philmont food tests we tried less water, but found that the amount specified worked best. Another tip - stir well and let the food rehydrate AT LEAST as long as specified. A few extra minutes often helped thicken the food and eliminate the crunchies.

> Question: If you have an odd number crew size, let's say 9, does Philmont give you food for 10

Hi Ty,

Yes you will get food for 10 (5 dual meal bags forbreakfast, lunch and dinner). Our crew had an odd number.It was nice for the first couple days, because we includedour Ranger in our super-efficient food prep methodand showed him we had practiced and had it down.

Yes. VERY bulky, and I think that the weight has increasedover the past couple years because of feedback formsfrom expeditions saying they did not have enough food.

At the resupply we asked the boys if they wanted to open the bags and ditch the 5 extra breakfast, lunch, anddinner items (except the dinner entrees which can't be split).The boys decided they want to keep it all - pick andchoose the good items from the extras and ditch the unliked items from the other meals in the swap boxes as we made our way through the second half of the trek. We let the boys run the trek. So we ended up carrying theextra bulk and weight until the last day.

We had 13 in our crew, shoulda seen the piles of stuff at resupply depots, getting 3-4 days of food. They give you +1 on the food. we did the exact same thing as the previous poster. Some extra things got eaten, either by scouts or adults, then swap boxed the extras every day. More rather then less food worked out well for our group. We mostly ate the extra portion, not much made the swap boxes. Gator aid and some of the least desirable breakfast bars was about it.

We pretty much used the proper amount of water asked for, at least for 12 servings, then we added the last 2 person serving to the big pot and guessed from there. Seemed to be right all the time. Or just cook a little more if runny.

As you can see, Philmont food is heavy and bulky. No worries. You will start out as a lightweight crew (right?) so you will be ahead of the game.

As for runny food: Always add a bit less water than required. You can always add water but you can't take it out. Some items are runnier than others.

We didn't freezer bag or use the big pot to cook in. We each took our own plastic cup with lid, i.e. glad or a plastic drink cup with tinfoil lid. Each of us cooked our own meal right in that cup. At the end add a bit of water, swish it around and drink it. No dirty bags. No frisbees. No dirty pots.

I was at Philmont in 2007 and having heard about food bulk and weight I bought a larger pack (GraniteGear Vapor Trail). But once I had all my gear packed I decided to stick with a trusty old GraniteGear Virga. Very glad I did, even with 4 2/3 days of food I wasn't using more than a couple inches of the extension collar and I had to work at keeping the pack "full" when food supply was low (critical in a frameless pack). I was happily "disappointed" that the food seemed neither as heavy nor bulky as I feared.

We're returning in 2010 with two crews and ordered one each of all 10 of the 2009 dinners for testing alternative cooking methods and practicing before we go.

SO, it's time to get quantitative! Remember, each meal package feeds two.

Weight: There was a moderate amount of variation in weight but the average package weighed 15.2 ounces. That's 7.6oz (216 grams) per dinner serving.

Bulk: Stored in a 5 gallon pail (packed as snug as I could can make it without fear of crushing) the 10 packages occupied approx 950 cubic inches. That's approx 48 cubic inches (0.79 liters) per dinner serving.

Unfortunately I don't have calorie, fat, carbohydrate and protein info for the meals.

Here's the weights of the 2009 Philmont food I purchased for our 2010 shake down hikes to prep for our 2010 Philmont trip. As you can see lunches and breakfasts weigh considerably more than the dinners. I've been told that there is a lot of gatoraid that can be removed to slim down the food weight - lots of sugar in Gatoraid. The last column show the amount of water (in fluid oz) required per meal packet (each packet feeds two Scouts).

I don't have any hard data, but I found that both the lunches and breakfasts take up more space than the dinners (with the luches being the largest as mentioned by Al above).

I'll share with ya'll the way that I usually teach meal prep for Philmont dinners. It does involve both large cooking pots, and a normal whisperlite style stove, but to be honest, it isn't too much to expect a 12 man expedition to carry these things.

Since none of the food requires cooking, all you have to do is rehydrate it. Simply boil about 4-5 liters of water (for the entire crew) in one pot (or if you're really enterprising and have two stoves, boil 2-3 liters in two pots!).

After the water boils start out with one of the pots completely empty, and add a few cups full of water to it. Then start dumping all the food packets in (mashed potatoes, chicken pot pie, etc.). The things that don't make sense to mix (i.e. green beens and mac and cheese) don't mix, but the majority of meal items go very nicely together in a 1 pot method.

Meanwhile, have the cook add a cup of water to the pot with the food in it, until it looks to be about the right consistency. Keep stirring, and cover and let sit. A few minutes later your meal should be ready to eat.

The beauty of this is it eliminates the clean up mess that comes from trying to cook dehydrated food over a stove. You just end up with burned stuff on your pot. Once you eat all the food, cleaning the "cook" pot requires no more than a few wipes with a sponge and you're done. You can even use the leftover hydrating water (which should still be warm) as your cleaning water.

I noticed someone mentioned the individual tupperware method. From what I could tell that method also works really well. Just make sure if you're planning to use that method to incorporate it in all of your training hikes so the boys all know how to do it properly.

What I would not recommend are turkey bags or especially trying to rehydrate the food in the foil packages. It's usually just a disaster waiting to happen. Especially the foil package method. The bags are too small to add water to with all the food inside, and it'll just spill everywhere. Turkey bags really aren't worth the effort in cleanup that they save either.

I hope that helps some. Also, a note on the food bulk. Yes it is a lot of food, and yes it does take up a good bit of space, but it all usually tends to get eaten :)

> What I would not recommend are turkey bags or especially > trying to rehydrate the food in the foil packages. > The bags are too small to add water to with all the > food inside

To each his own. The foil packages are not too small.Our crew used them for our entire 2009 trek withoutany problems.

No matter what food prep method your crew plans to use at Philmont: pots, tupperware, turkey, or foil, they should practice it several times on practice hikes and be comfortable with it before arriving at Philmont.Our boys tried all four methods on preparation outings before deciding which method they liked best.

We're going to Philmont the last week of July/1st week of August and I'm trying to help break some old habits.

All the adults going have gone previously and stand by using a FairShare mug for eating their meals.

The truth is I'm not a big fan of the whole sumping idea and wonder if a few quart freezer bags would do the job. I regularly use freezer bag "cooking" techniques during our other outings and wonder if the same approach will work at Philmont.

My feeling is you need everyone on board at Philmont regarding cooking procedures. You may have to slow play this one if some of the other leaders have been before and say "this is the way we do it". You may be able to introduce them to other techniques on prep. hikes.

There are a few ways to cook at Philmont that can keep your weight down.

Freezer bagCook in mylar bag the food comes inHeat water as a group and re-hydrate in your own cup

No dirty pots. It seems you do not like to have to sump your cup. We used method #3 with everyone bringing a Glad container with lid. After finishing food we rinsed a bit and drank. If you do it just as you finish your food it's easy.

The only reason I do not like freezer bag, or mylar bag cooking, is because the bag is dirty and you have to carry around a bag that has food particles in it. Not a real big problem at Philmont because you can empty trash at a camp the same or next day.

As far as amount of water (people were commenting on it earlier) make sure you use boiling water, not warm. Our Ranger also gave us good advice and said to add just a bit less water than the directions recommend. It's easier to add since you can't remove water.

> I regularly use freezer bag "cooking" techniques during our other outings and wonderif the same approach will work at Philmont.> Thoughts and feedback appreciated.

Hi Greg,

Scott has done a good job of laying out the Philmont cooking options. And I applaud you in trying to break old habits in favor of more efficient techniques. Let me add just a couple thoughts on the Philmont philosophy for you to consider.

A Philmont trek is supposed to be a boy led adventure - adult crew members are there for the ride (and safety)

1. Cooking method - boys should decided what method they want their crew to use at Philmont. Practice hikes are your opportunity to have them try different cooking methods, including the traditional Philmont large pot way, and see what they like best. My feeling is the same as Scott's that the whole crew should use the same technique whatever is decided.

2. Meals are dual packages - even if you wanted to use a different technique than the rest of the crew (which I don't recommend because it disrupts the Philmont experience of the crew really coming together during the trek) but even if you wanted to, you would have to get one other person to also want to use the different technique. You two would share a meal package each evening.

Meals this year feature Moutain House f-d products. Easily prepped in the plastic envelope, but we had one experienced guy who more or less insisted on "cooking" in pot, even though clean-up made more involved by doing so.

+1 on using slightly less (I'd recommend 85-90% of suggested) water than called for. Make sure hot/boiling, though.

+1 on trash disposal at staffed camps. Compact trash as much as possible, then dump in provided containers.

+2 on bulk/weight. Provided food packs were difficult to find space for, even when repacked. Weight less of an issue, but annoying.

Many meals were cold, featuring energy/carb/prot bars of various sorts, canned/foil-enclosed meats, etc.