My little IOS app does not give me nulls, unfortunately. I would guess that because of the large size of your proposed room, you will want to run a pretty sizable amount of damping for bass traps for the length and width axial modes in order to limit the low frequency demands placed on your smoothing subs. Just these two modes alone result in standing waves in the 15-25Hz range.

This is just a crude analysis and I realize the topic is much more complex. On the other hand, I think we can agree that the large dimensions will lead to significant challenges in smoothing the lower bass range. Bottom line: I think the frequency response of your smoothing subs will need to extend pretty low...

Mike

If I stuck with the cheap infinity 1260's I could port them at 20hz I guess. They work really well like that actually. The height of my column should allow me the length needed for a nice long port too. 19hz even would work well enough. That would give extension down to 15hz usable, and I'm not super concerned with 15hz room nodes they just don't present themselves as problems like the higher frequency ones.

To further complicate things (but improve) my room isn't going to be a rectangle. I'm going to have different heights for risers, and the ceiling is stepped then coffered (and varies in elevation). My walls will be 8"+ thick with treatments, I suspect I'll have the biggest corner bass trap you've ever seen in the front two corners, and large ones in the rear too. The back area is a back wet bar, and there will be a heavy curtain that can close that off if needed but I suspect my room will be rather dead and the back area might sound good as a little reflection. I'll have to measure this kind of stuff once the room is there and really tune this stuff. But long story short is it won't be perfect rectangle, or have untreated corners - and my plan includes elevated drivers, side wall drivers and rear drivers. I'm hoping all this combined with adequate distance from boundary walls is enough for a great theater experience.

I understand not wanting to clip your amps/drivers but there is nothing wrong with pushing them hard. There designed for that. I don't think you would hear the difference between an amp/driver pushed to 20% vs 40%. I like lighting up three of my inukes lights. Feels like its earning its money.

Actually I'll go a step further and throw you a major compliment. Of all the systems I've ever seen here on AVS if I could choose just one for myself it would be yours. Please don't think I have some disrespect for ported I generally like them a lot. For good output and extension it's almost always a solid choice.

TY for the compliment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mfusick

But horns do have advantages in output*1, dynamic range*2, efficiency, and suppression of distortion compared*3 to ported and a well designed horn is louder, more dynamic, and cleaner sounding within it's designed bandwidth than a well executed and designed ported subwoofer*4. Ported sound best within the octave of tune but typically this is lower and so in the upper bass and mid bass a horn sounds cleaner and has lower distortion often by design, that's not necessarily a problem with ported as much as it's a benefit of a horn.

1) In limited bandwidth, but if driver to driver, yes, if volumetric space of sub, no.
2) If you're limited to using less drivers, sure.
3) Distortion is not always suppressed as you imagine. Any signal lower than the knee will be amplified greater than the fundamental. Horns will not really limit distortion. Sure you may hear less doppler and mechanical, but that's only going to be at the mechanical limits of the sub and the horn isn't going to suppress the rest of the distortion there.
4) I disagree. Again, depends what you're comparing. driver to driver, yeah, I'll give you that. But once you begin adding volume and drivers to the ported system to match, you'll have smoother frequency response and wider bandwidth.

After going back to sealed from horns, it just sounded cleaner to me. Going then from sealed to ported was night and day. Horns are great in some scenarios, but unless budget is severely restricted, I personally prefer other alignments.

1) In limited bandwidth, but if driver to driver, yes, if volumetric space of sub, no.

But I am not limited on space. I made that clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnyt

2) If you're limited to using less drivers, sure.

Exactly But I might not always be so poor so adding more is an upgrade path.

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnyt

3) Distortion is not always suppressed as you imagine. Any signal lower than the knee will be amplified greater than the fundamental. Horns will not really limit distortion. Sure you may hear less doppler and mechanical, but that's only going to be at the mechanical limits of the sub and the horn isn't going to suppress the rest of the distortion there.

I'm not sure this is the case, it might be a good side conversation. If anyone knows more on this open up a line of dialog Hijacking welcomed. This is interesting to me, my understanding is that horns to suppress some kinds of distortion and one of the reasons why they are "clean" or called that so often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnyt

4) I disagree. Again, depends what you're comparing. driver to driver, yeah, I'll give you that. But once you begin adding volume and drivers to the ported system to match, you'll have smoother frequency response and wider bandwidth.

Well executed ported can sound great but there is always some level of port noise, turbulance, hearing the mechanical of the driver, and the top end of a low tuned sub isn't always super great. You can minimize things using high quality drivers like you have to some degree. But expecting the same output from a less sub and amp combo in a bigger space is asking a lot. I think your solution is so awesome because it's so over engineered and in excess of what you need that the extra headroom just serves to really make awesome bass and experience. That is a solid strategy! But again, $2000 in drivers and $1000 in amps in a bigger space I have less headroom. Probably still enough, and I can add more. But not the margin of error you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnyt

After going back to sealed from horns, it just sounded cleaner to me. Going then from sealed to ported was night and day. Horns are great in some scenarios, but unless budget is severely restricted, I personally prefer other alignments.

I do appreciate your advice. Seeing you take 8 LMS from sealed to ported is epic BTW... I love that. That's something I would do. Take something awesome and make it more.

Let's show ported some love then and get back on track with the ULF + LF systems vs single. How about a ported at 13hz and then more at 28hz ? Or ported at 13hz and then horns at 30hz ? That was the original premise in the title but I still haven't made enough progress on this front. If I wanted it all with 10db over reference at the seats- what is the best option for me ? Does it make sense to keep horns + Horns or Ported + ported verus mixing ? Or just do one system ? Porting everyting is an option. 8 infinity ported at 19hz for smoothing is unto itself significant so running those on top of say a triple UXL18 ported (two front, one elevated and another in the back) might be an easy solution. What's the SPL of something like that? Anything think it would sound as good as horns ? (I'm suspect).

Why not ? Just roll off the ULF system over it's crossover point, at a certain point you don't need more SPL. If the system is capable of 150db at 60hz, just knock that down to 125db to match the ULF capability ? How about a 48db/slope Xover on the top of the ULF system ? That would have the opposite effect I think. Start cutting at 28hz. With room gain it would be plenty.

If your max level will be that of the ulf system, I don't really see the point in splitting it. Just designe a better system in the first place and use the extra resources towards that.

Here's some modeling for you real quick, sticking to your budget. Bottom line is 2x um18-22 in a 30 cubic foot ported enclosure tuned to 16hz. Next is 4 woofers, then 8 woofers. That runs a few dollars over 2k, but you can probably get a discount if you call them directly. They're modeled with 1kw per driver.. so 8kw for 8 drivers. System stays below xmax and port air velocity isn't a problem. FP14000 will power the entire system, or you can get a pair of nu6000dsp, or whatever else floats your boat. Wood will run ~400. That's insanely loud.

"SO what about what I said earlier. ULF + LF systems combined, or just one solution use in multiples ?"

I would suggest you focus on the frequency range above 15Hz for now and save the last octave or two as an ULF upgrade down the road. Once you start construction, you will probably be bleeding money so fast you'll wonder if you'll have enough money left over for groceries. At that point you'll be glad you stuck to a simple, tried and true design. I share your fascination with horns, but I would be more concerned with getting the theater up and running with a full Atmos implementation than chasing after that bottom octave or two.

Just make sure you have a means to move a full-size Sub Zero 'fridge into the theater and you should be able to add whatever ULF design in place after the build

I plan on building the subs in the theater before the carpet is installed. While I'm working on the bar area and doing all the finish wood working. I'll have a table saw and router in the room, and even dust collection system. Plus I'll have another table saw below in the garage. The door will be 36" standard exterior door with two sheets of 1/2" MDF added with GG. Or something like that. But it will let in 36" or a sheet of ply.

With a bass-managed 7.1 system, the sub can be called on to deliver 127dB peaks. It doesn't happen often, but I have measured many films with >125dB peaks. Most films have at least one peak above 122dB.

not's advice is good. When enough headroom is available to make distortion inaudible, the differences between enclosure alignments are small. Most that tout the awesomeness of horns have not heard a comparable sealed or vented system with the same amount of headroom, so of course the horn wins....it has more headroom than the sealed or vented system it replaced....

Did you see the graphs I posted above? Do you know how incredibly loud that will be in room? I don't think you quite grasp just how loud that is. If you want to come to NY, I'll give you a demo with 1/4 of my system running and you can tell me if any horn you've ever heard compares

If you go with higher quality drivers like UXL18, you'll have even more headroom, but they cost more. It will give you a slight upgrade opportunity in the future, but not really needed. You'll get more output out of smaller boxes.

In this graph, there's the 8x and 4x ultimax plots, and 4x UXL18 in 40 cubic feet of total space in red with 12kw of power. This just stays under xmax. You can double up in the future should you want and add 6db. These are highpassed to keep excursion in check.

This is the Zv4 vs the UXL18 (red). Both highpassed to keep excursion in check.

The horn will have more headroom is the point, for a given budget in drivers, any budget, especially in the frequency range that matters and that is the entire point. Ported is great if you want the absolute maximum measured SPL in the 15-30Hz range for a given volume of space, at least until the size gets ridiculous but above the excursion limited zone the horn will destroy the ported in the same space as they tend to have a falling response when undersized and the top end will have far greater output than the excursion limited region. Anyone who says that horns are only for budget minded people doesn't understand horns or has not heard powerful horns, I can speak for myself that doing what notnyt did was in the cards budget wise but I had no interest in ported cabs and went a different route. I request anyone posting here to stand in front of a stack of LAB horns (at least 6) at full tilt and tell me what amount of ported cabs will do that subjectively, in my view no amount of ported subs will achieve the same subjective result, you may get as loud on the meter but it won't sound or feel the same,whether you prefer the horn or the ported is a matter of preference. Some people make comparisons to horns based on horns that are not particularly powerful, a common example being the THT, in my view the THT is not a good example of a FLH.

Max if your comment about head room was directed at me, the systems I compared had adequate headroom compared to the horn.

The horn will have more headroom is the point, for a given budget in drivers, any budget, especially in the frequency range that matters and that is the entire point. Ported is great if you want the absolute maximum measured SPL in the 15-30Hz range for a given volume of space, at least until the size gets ridiculous but above the excursion limited zone the horn will destroy the ported in the same space as they tend to have a falling response when undersized and the top end will have far greater output than the excursion limited region. Anyone who says that horns are only for budget minded people doesn't understand horns or has not heard powerful horns, I can speak for myself that doing what notnyt did was in the cards budget wise but I had no interest in ported cabs and went a different route. I request anyone posting here to stand in front of a stack of LAB horns (at least 6) at full tilt and tell me what amount of ported cabs will do that subjectively, in my view no amount of ported subs will achieve the same subjective result, you may get as loud on the meter but it won't sound or feel the same,whether you prefer the horn or the ported is a matter of preference. Some people make comparisons to horns based on horns that are not particularly powerful, a common example being the THT, in my view the THT is not a good example of a FLH.

Max if your comment about head room was directed at me, the systems I compared had adequate headroom compared to the horn.

That's great and all if you want some horns tuned for 35hz and up, but hes putting this in a theater not a concert hall. Extension and frequency response are important. And I agree, THT is not very good.

That's great and all if you want some horns tuned for 30hz and up, but hes putting this in a theater not a concert hall. Extension and frequency response are important. And I agree, THT is not very good.

I have outlined my approach in a previous post so yes the FLHs are good to about 40Hz but it is not for a concert hall, I also like sheer insanity. I don't sacrifice frequency response as my room is treated and the use of DSP and measurements takes care of things but I tailor it to my preferences. Extension is a tricky subject around here everyone has their own view on what is necessary.

I have outlined my approach in a previous post so yes the FLHs are good to about 40Hz but it is not for a concert hall, I also like sheer insanity. I don't sacrifice frequency response as my room is treated and the use of DSP and measurements takes care of things but I tailor it to my preferences. Extension is a tricky subject around here everyone has their own view on what is necessary.

Models? Measurements? etc?

Labhorns you mention fall off like bricks from 35hz on down. They're also 30 cubic feet and notorious for distortion. You might want to read up on some of the old prosound shootouts. edit: perhaps you like the distortion you're hearing?

I just did some quick modeling.

A pair of LMS18 ultras in 15 cubic feet will put out over 131db and be -3db at 20hz. Double up to get the same cubic footage, 4 ultras, and now you're talking 137db in the same volume, down 3db at 20hz. This far surpasses your example. edit: Model with a pro sound driver like the 5100, and results are even better.

Labhorns you mention fall off like bricks from 35hz on down. They're also 30 cubic feet and notorious for distortion. You might want to read up on some of the old prosound shootouts.

I just did some quick modeling.

A pair of LMS18 ultras in 15 cubic feet will put out over 131db and be -3db at 20hz. Double up to get the same cubic footage, 4 ultras, and now you're talking 137db in the same volume, down 3db at 20hz. This far surpasses your example.

Models and measurements of what? I don't have LABs.

The labhorn was an example of the subjectivity of FLHs, also they arent the only FLH in existence nor are they designed for 20Hz so I don't understand why you would compare a LAB with a ported LMS at 20Hz? It is an example I chose since they are relatively common and one can hear them and that may offer perspective.

The labhorn was an example of the subjectivity of FLHs, also they arent the only FLH in existence nor are they designed for 20Hz so I don't understand why you would compare a LAB with a ported LMS at 20Hz? It is an example I chose since they are relatively common and one can hear them and that may offer perspective.

You said:

Quote:

I request anyone posting here to stand in front of a stack of LAB horns (at least 6) at full tilt and tell me what amount of ported cabs will do that subjectively, in my view no amount of ported subs will achieve the same subjective result, you may get as loud on the meter but it won't sound or feel the same

I used that as an example since it will exceed the output on the top end and extend down to 20hz on the low end in comparison to what you suggested in the same amount of space. I've stood in front of many sub stacks. I've heard 12pis and labhorns back to back, and the 12pis easily handed it to the labhorns. They still wouldn't match up in my example. Granted, they'd be cheaper and require less power, but they'd leave a lot on the table in comparison. It's possible you just like the high distortion from the labhorns.

As for measurements or models, I was referring to this setup you so lightly outlined earlier.

I used that as an example since it will exceed the output on the top end and extend down to 20hz on the low end in comparison to what you suggested in the same amount of space. I've stood in front of many sub stacks. I've heard 12pis and labhorns back to back, and the 12pis easily handed it to the labhorns. They still wouldn't match up in my example. Granted, they'd be cheaper and require less power, but they'd leave a lot on the table in comparison. It's possible you just like the high distortion from the labhorns.

As for measurements or models, I was referring to this setup you so lightly outlined earlier.

My setup is still in the process of being completed, I'm afraid there are no measurements that I can give you since it is not operational yet. I don't have any subs in my system at the moment pending completion of the overhaul.

If you have heard 12pis and LAB horns back to back do you think they have the same sound as a ported cabinet tuned to the same frequency? I don't. The 12pi is an improvement on the LAB by the way.

You are comparing how many LABs/12Pis to how many LMS's ported because I didn't see a graph, could you repost it please. Can you do this on a given budget? Pick a budget, any budget and put as many LABs or ported LMS into it.

You should also read the part in my previous post that you quoted where I mention you can get the same reading on the meter, but it doesn't sound or feel the same.

My setup is still in the process of being completed, I'm afraid there are no measurements that I can give you since it is not operational yet. I don't have any subs in my system at the moment pending completion of the overhaul.

models?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre

If you have heard 12pis and LAB horns back to back do you think they have the same sound as a ported cabinet tuned to the same frequency? I don't. The 12pi is an improvement on the LAB by the way.

I mentioned the 12pi handed it to the lab easily. I didn't say tuned to the same frequency. If you were doing this, horns will win as long as tuning frequency is high enough. The point is, you can tune ported lower, in the same amount of space, fit more drivers, and gain output and extension. Of course they won't sound the same either, the horns will have more of a rising frequency and be missing octaves down below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre

You are comparing how many LABs/12Pis to how many LMS's ported because I didn't see a graph, could you repost it please. Can you do this on a given budget? Pick a budget, any budget and put as many LABs or ported LMS into it.

So now it's back to budget? I thought we were talking in the same amount of space as you said. Graphs below for the tc 5100.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre

You should also read the part in my previous post that you quoted where I mention you can get the same reading on the meter, but it doesn't sound or feel the same.

Well, if you like 30% distortion at 25 watts or whatever was measured from the labhorn, I guess you should stick with those.

Here's two 5100s modeled to stay below xmax in 15 cubes tuned to 22hz. You can add another one of these and still be in the same volume of space as a labhorn, so +6db.

I mentioned the 12pi handed it to the lab easily. I didn't say tuned to the same frequency. If you were doing this, horns will win as long as tuning frequency is high enough. The point is, you can tune ported lower, in the same amount of space, fit more drivers, and gain output and extension. Of course they won't sound the same either, the horns will have more of a rising frequency and be missing octaves down below.

So now it's back to budget? I thought we were talking in the same amount of space as you said. Graphs below for the tc 5100.

Well, if you like 30% distortion at 25 watts or whatever was measured from the labhorn, I guess you should stick with those.

Here's two 5100s modeled to stay below xmax in 15 cubes tuned to 22hz. You can add another one of these and still be in the same volume of space as a labhorn, so +6db.

Models of what? If you mean my 40Hz + FLHs are not DIY, they are commercial. Pair of Danley BC412.

My post said -

"The horn will have more headroom is the point, for a given budget in drivers, any budget, especially in the frequency range that matters and that is the entire point. Ported is great if you want the absolute maximum measured SPL in the 15-30Hz range for a given volume of space, at least until the size gets ridiculous but above the excursion limited zone the horn will destroy the ported in the same space as they tend to have a falling response when undersized and the top end will have far greater output than the excursion limited region. Anyone who says that horns are only for budget minded people doesn't understand horns or has not heard powerful horns, I can speak for myself that doing what notnyt did was in the cards budget wise but I had no interest in ported cabs and went a different route. I request anyone posting here to stand in front of a stack of LAB horns (at least 6) at full tilt and tell me what amount of ported cabs will do that subjectively, in my view no amount of ported subs will achieve the same subjective result, you may get as loud on the meter but it won't sound or feel the same,whether you prefer the horn or the ported is a matter of preference. Some people make comparisons to horns based on horns that are not particularly powerful, a common example being the THT, in my view the THT is not a good example of a FLH.

Max if your comment about head room was directed at me, the systems I compared had adequate headroom compared to the horn."

Budget is one of the major points of this thread so I mention budget. As for space any driver in any given space will have more output in a horn,especially above the excursion limited zone. I was not speaking of fitting multiple drivers in the same space, I was speaking of utilizing it driver for driver, $ for $ as is the real world scenario. If you use enough drivers compared to a single horn with a single driver then obviously at some point you will measure more SPL from the stack of drivers. I thought this was obvious and I don't argue that at all. I am saying that when one has an X budget in drivers then when you buy the drivers you will leverage a LOT more out of each driver in a horn if you have space. Space is the limiting factor with a horn which the OP has and he likes their sound and he wants value, hence my argument.

You agree they don't sound the same then, that is all I was trying to say. Whether you prefer it or not is a different matter. I also feel that the difference is not simply a matter of response. A long time ago I had matched the response of quad ported 21s and the DTS 10s but they still had a different sound.

You say I should stick with the LAB when I already told you I don't have LABs...

Models of what? If you mean my 40Hz + FLHs are not DIY, they are commercial. Pair of Danley BC412.

My post said -

"The horn will have more headroom is the point, for a given budget in drivers, any budget, especially in the frequency range that matters and that is the entire point. Ported is great if you want the absolute maximum measured SPL in the 15-30Hz range for a given volume of space, at least until the size gets ridiculous but above the excursion limited zone the horn will destroy the ported in the same space as they tend to have a falling response when undersized and the top end will have far greater output than the excursion limited region. Anyone who says that horns are only for budget minded people doesn't understand horns or has not heard powerful horns, I can speak for myself that doing what notnyt did was in the cards budget wise but I had no interest in ported cabs and went a different route. I request anyone posting here to stand in front of a stack of LAB horns (at least 6) at full tilt and tell me what amount of ported cabs will do that subjectively, in my view no amount of ported subs will achieve the same subjective result, you may get as loud on the meter but it won't sound or feel the same,whether you prefer the horn or the ported is a matter of preference. Some people make comparisons to horns based on horns that are not particularly powerful, a common example being the THT, in my view the THT is not a good example of a FLH.

Max if your comment about head room was directed at me, the systems I compared had adequate headroom compared to the horn."

Budget is one of the major points of this thread so I mention budget. As for space any driver in any given space will have more output in a horn,especially above the excursion limited zone. I was not speaking of fitting multiple drivers in the same space, I was speaking of utilizing it driver for driver, $ for $ as is the real world scenario. If you use enough drivers compared to a single horn with a single driver then obviously at some point you will measure more SPL from the stack of drivers. I thought this was obvious and I don't argue that at all. I am saying that when one has an X budget in drivers then when you buy the drivers you will leverage a LOT more out of each driver in a horn if you have space. Space is the limiting factor with a horn which the OP has and he likes their sound and he wants value, hence my argument.

You agree they don't sound the same then, that is all I was trying to say. Whether you prefer it or not is a different matter. I also feel that the difference is not simply a matter of response. A long time ago I had matched the response of quad ported 21s and the DTS 10s but they still had a different sound.

You say I should stick with the LAB when I already told you I don't have LABs...

Mostly in agreement, but OP mentioned he wanted extension to 14 or 15hz. There's not going to be a horn that will adequately provide that. Mixing and matching, you still won't keep up on the bottom end, so it ends up being an exercise in futility. By the time you can keep up on the bottom end, you might as well run everything full range and then there's no real need for horns at all in this scenario. I won't argue at all that horns will be more efficient and provide more output above certain frequencies, however I personally feel they don't provide adequate output down low, especially for an HT application.

For music, it's not much of a competition. If you have the space, horns will kick ported ass since you can get away with running only 35hz and up.

When my lab15s get here, I'd build a horn if I could fit one under my bench. Unfortunately, ported box tuned to ~34hz it is in ~5cufft.