most people who spend thousands on gear do so because they figure they will be recording for the rest of their lives and over the long haul they will save money. Whether they are correct about the totals is less important than what they THINK. The other aspect of it is that if they are going to pay for a studio, maybe they want something MUCH better than what they could do themselves.

but 20 dollars an hour for a better sounding recording may be more reasonable. You cannot make the calculation as if all recordings are equal. Shoveling snow off their driveway is an easily defined task. Either the snow is removed or it is not. And if half the snow is gone, at least half is gone. Recording can be all over the map and a poor recording might be worth zero - it's not like someone else can come in and "finish" it .

In the end, the market will determine what you charge. If you are charging too much, the market will let you know. If you are charging too little they will beat down your door and you will have to raise your rates just to be able to have a day off.

But if they want something MUCH BETTER, they can pay for it. believe it or not some people dont have 5 to 10 grand lying around for an album. Not to mention in 2018 albums are kinda dead, It's all about singles now. Which will probably still end up being buried by all of the other stuff.

And 20 bucks an hour is double the price I'd hope for it to be better if I had to pay double.
But then again why go to the 20 dollar an hour guy when I can go to the 50 dollar an hour guy who's recorded pro bands and can do an even better job?

The other costs to my studio are gear and also the waves mercury bundle

As well as isotope; neutron and ozone 2018 edition

Omnisphere,
Trillian

Expensive software I must say..

That's what I'll probably do tho is just charge minimum wage, which in my city is 10 an hour. I live in the maritimes in canada.

At least you're not in Montréal or Toronto. Lots of great places there (though their football teams stink).

Where you are, I'd think you should have a good number of opportunities. Practice with your friends' bands for food/beer/cash, get paying gigs from other people, act professionally at all times, build your reputation, and use the money you make to upgrade your room/gear. Like you've alluded to, offer bands/artists things they don't have- that will increase your perceived value to them.

One last thing....don't worry too much about the gear yet...listening to your 2nd track your recordings are decent already, try to focus on your technique... mic placement and mostly mixing. Maybe watch a more experienced friend mix ...or a pro engineer (thats how I learned) your mixes can improve a lot (which is ok! We all have been through this) on the 2nd one (wine) there are obvious dynamic issues (main guitar especially) and also it lacks some glue on the whole thing (just a touch of comp/lim and sometimes verb on the master) learning how to deal properly with dynamics (compressors...mic placement..fader riding) is an art that can take years to improve if no-one shows you the tricks nor pinpoint the problems. You're on the right track!

One last thing....don't worry too much about the gear yet...listening to your 2nd track your recordings are decent already, try to focus on your technique... mic placement and mostly mixing. Maybe watch a more experienced friend mix ...or a pro engineer (thats how I learned) your mixes can improve a lot (which is ok! We all have been through this) on the 2nd one (wine) there are obvious dynamic issues (main guitar especially) and also it lacks some glue on the whole thing (just a touch of comp/lim and sometimes verb on the master) learning how to deal properly with dynamics (compressors...mic placement..fader riding) is an art that can take years to improve if no-one shows you the tricks nor pinpoint the problems. You're on the right track!

Yea the second song was done with alot more care haha the peppers cover was messing around for fun.

I have a friend who's got a pro studio and been at the business for 30 years, hes teaching me and he said I should charge something but not alot. I made this thread to find out the numbers and I think I have an idea.

in the late 80s i got a job as an assistant, in a Pro studio, that had a 32 channel Neve and a 24 Track Studer A800mk3 tape machine.

we had Neuman U87s and AKG 414s, and 1176s and lexicons etc etc. in terms of gear it was a serious rigg.

i worked 10.00am till 1.30 or 2.00am every day (including most sundays) for about 4 years straight, tracking and mixing bands mainly.

i worked at least 100 hours per week, and got paid $250 flat. about every 3 months i got a sunday off.

i was overjoyed to be there, and didnt give a Rats Arse about the financial aspect. i was just happy to go to work every day wearing clean cloths, and working on music of some kind or other.

some of the outside engineers who came in had worked on some major projects, with some very big name clients. Kylie Minogue, Elton John, that kind of league.they were highly experienced professional engineers. good people to learn from.

anyway in that studio i didnt earn anything, but i learnt lots, and it paid off in the long run.

there is no minimum wage in studio land if you want to get started and get somewhere. thats the truth.

And 20 bucks an hour is double the price I'd hope for it to be better if I had to pay double.

Diminishing returns are a feature of any technological field. If you want a car that goes 150 MPH, you can probably find a used one under $10,000. If you want a car that goes 300 miles an hour, (twice as fast) it will cost you $1,600,000.

From a lot of musician's point of view , both a $10 an hour studio and a $20 an hour studio are so far on the low end as to be nearly indistinguishable. Perhaps there are local bands and young student types for whom the price differential is meaningful.

Quote:

But then again why go to the 20 dollar an hour guy when I can go to the 50 dollar an hour guy who's recorded pro bands and can do an even better job?

paying more is no guarantee of a better product, but people who are good at what they do, can charge more and get away with it, so it's often a good indicator. Especially if they have been in business for a while.

Operating a recording studio for hourly rates is just about the worst business in the world, especially at the bottom end. Unlike, say, a dry cleaners, where everybody in town might potentially need clean clothes, only the musicians in the town need recording. And actually almost none of them NEED recording. They just WANT recording. Huge difference. The only person who needs a recording is the producer or artist who has already received an advance for their product. For everyone else, it's discretionary and probably speculative.

plus musicians are, as a group, the flakiest, most constantly broke people around. We all know it. At least the dry cleaner's customers all have jobs. Good jobs that necessitate clean clothes! They need the service and they have the means to pay for it.

Diminishing returns are a feature of any technological field. If you want a car that goes 150 MPH, you can probably find a used one under $10,000. If you want a car that goes 300 miles an hour, (twice as fast) it will cost you $1,600,000.

From a lot of musician's point of view , both a $10 an hour studio and a $20 an hour studio are so far on the low end as to be nearly indistinguishable. Perhaps there are local bands and young student types for whom the price differential is meaningful.

paying more is no guarantee of a better product, but people who are good at what they do, can charge more and get away with it, so it's often a good indicator. Especially if they have been in business for a while.

Operating a recording studio for hourly rates is just about the worst business in the world, especially at the bottom end. Unlike, say, a dry cleaners, where everybody in town might potentially need clean clothes, only the musicians in the town need recording. And actually almost none of them NEED recording. They just WANT recording. Huge difference. The only person who needs a recording is the producer or artist who has already received an advance for their product. For everyone else, it's discretionary and probably speculative.

plus musicians are, as a group, the flakiest, most constantly broke people around. We all know it. At least the dry cleaner's customers all have jobs. Good jobs that necessitate clean clothes! They need the service and they have the means to pay for it.

you said it yourself, Musicians are broke and flakey.
That's where I come in at 50 dollars a day like buddah says.

Yep, agree with Buddha 50$ a day sounds perfect to begin with.
It's a pack of cigarettes per musician/day for a 5 piece band (cigarettes are expensive here in Europe)
They just need to quit smoking if they do :-)
More seriously it's not much but it's still 300 for 6 days learning your passion.

Diminishing returns are a feature of any technological field. If you want a car that goes 150 MPH, you can probably find a used one under $10,000. If you want a car that goes 300 miles an hour, (twice as fast) it will cost you $1,600,000.

From a lot of musician's point of view , both a $10 an hour studio and a $20 an hour studio are so far on the low end as to be nearly indistinguishable. Perhaps there are local bands and young student types for whom the price differential is meaningful.

paying more is no guarantee of a better product, but people who are good at what they do, can charge more and get away with it, so it's often a good indicator. Especially if they have been in business for a while.

Operating a recording studio for hourly rates is just about the worst business in the world, especially at the bottom end. Unlike, say, a dry cleaners, where everybody in town might potentially need clean clothes, only the musicians in the town need recording. And actually almost none of them NEED recording. They just WANT recording. Huge difference. The only person who needs a recording is the producer or artist who has already received an advance for their product. For everyone else, it's discretionary and probably speculative.

plus musicians are, as a group, the flakiest, most constantly broke people around. We all know it. At least the dry cleaner's customers all have jobs. Good jobs that necessitate clean clothes! They need the service and they have the means to pay for it.

A family member offered to back me in a "business". I started to mentally compile a list of gear, but dry cleaning was the business they were thinking of. I wasn't interested, but I could not fault their logic! Providing a regular service that employed people need vs selling a sporadic service that unemployed people merely "want". I eventually got my studio going, but most likely I would be far more financially comfortable today, had I taken the other path.

One last thing ... although gear is not the culprit when it comes down to make beautiful recordings and learning your art, your equipment list seems super imbalanced to me.
That's a LOT of money spent on software!
A ratio of 50/50 software/gear seems a bit crazy unless you're doing electronic music only.
Logic pro costs 200 bucks and pretty much gives you everything you need.
Even Reaper would be fine tbh to start with.
I don't think musicians are going to choose you as a recordist because you own the Waves bundle.
(especially with all the illegal copies around sadly)
The mastering bundle by izotope is an amazing piece of software...but overkill at your stage me thinks..
Slapping your DAW's limiter and mastering EQ on your mixbus (or maybe a multiband compressor if you know what you're doing...also included in most DAWs) would be more than good enough, until the quality of your mixes justify an elaborate mastering and the result is being distributed (labels)
And if the work is label-backed, mastering will mostly happen at a dedicated facility anyway.
On the other hand if you convert that money in a Neumann U87 and a good mic pre ... some musicians would choose to record at your place to take advantage of your signal chain.
I am not telling you should to sell all that software..it would be hard now as you got used to it :-)
But when you think of it... a U87 and a good mic pre won't go obsolete in a few years like plugins do.. they'll stay with you all your life. Won't lose value either.
The AT4050 is not a bad mic... but a U87 plus a UA610, an ISA one ... or another affordable but "pro" level mic pre would definitely bring you more work especially for acoustic & singer/songwriter stuff.
Anyway, just food for thought...good luck with your recordings/studio man!

What I don't get is how someone could justify spending 10 grand plus for an album in this current market, and have it buried in a week from the 10 thousand other albums.

The music game has changed, and making it is harder than ever. Always improving technology is allowing anyone to record at their own homes for a fair price and produce decent results.

So why not get an album recorded mixed and mastered for 500 to 2k? Sure it won't be quite as good as a million dollar studio, but it doesn't matter anyway cuz you will probably not be noticed by the masses even if you do spend tons. I know some of these people in my city, and they regret spending soo much

Like you say, times have changed, and this makes recording in a pro studio more accessible than ever. 500-2k can get you a demo/album recorded mixed and mastered in a million dollar studio. The professionals I've worked with usually charge 50 an hour, as well as industry professionals I've researched sending my material to for mixing/mastering.

I'd do it for free to build experience, and to know you can deliver a product clients will be happy with. If you insist on charging right out of the gate, 5-10 bucks an hour is pretty reasonable, or maybe 25-50 bucks a song for just mixing/mastering.

It struck me that you're going to charge 50 bucks a day to track, which I think has been agreed that you're doing ok (that second track you linked to is not mixed well but you can hear that there is workable material there for sure).

But the mix is way off. Honestly. There's no automation, so the levels are all over the place, and there's no cohesion or depth or structured placement decisions (that guitar way off right iosn't balanced by anything, and sounds weak, for example.

BUT.

You and most people here seem to have overlooked your main selling point.

You're an accomplished percussionist for god's sake.
You can do session drumming/percussion, even 'remotely', where people send you tracks to work over.
And that skill set is not limited by genre at all.
You could charge low, and deliver way beyond people's expectations.
That will build you an incredibly good reputation for future work, once your mixing chops are up to scratch.

What scares me for you is, that not only is your mixing not quite at a stage where you should think about charging, but you're also basically touting yourself as a mastering engineer - you shouldn't have the word 'mastering' anywhere near your list of services.

That's commercial/reputational suicide!

Accept that you are a student. Embrace it.
Play to your skills and strengths now, while you develop the others.

It struck me that you're going to charge 50 bucks a day to track, which I think has been agreed that you're doing ok (that second track you linked to is not mixed well but you can hear that there is workable material there for sure).

But the mix is way off. Honestly. There's no automation, so the levels are all over the place, and there's no cohesion or depth or structured placement decisions (that guitar way off right iosn't balanced by anything, and sounds weak, for example.

BUT.

You and most people here seem to have overlooked your main selling point.

You're an accomplished percussionist for god's sake.
You can do session drumming/percussion, even 'remotely', where people send you tracks to work over.
And that skill set is not limited by genre at all.
You could charge low, and deliver way beyond people's expectations.
That will build you an incredibly good reputation for future work, once your mixing chops are up to scratch.

What scares me for you is, that not only is your mixing not quite at a stage where you should think about charging, but you're also basically touting yourself as a mastering engineer - you shouldn't have the word 'mastering' anywhere near your list of services.

That's commercial/reputational suicide!

Accept that you are a student. Embrace it.
Play to your skills and strengths now, while you develop the others.

This thread has been interesting for me. I've also looked into charging for my services recently (mostly to accrue extra gear), having only done stuff for free up to now. My mixes have got to a point where I don't feel like I'm ripping someone off if I charge them, and I've mixed stuff for indie labels before who said the mixes were the best they had had (but note this is bedroom indie stuff, nothing major).

Anyways, I recently got into the online freelance market. The jobs on music production seem to be ridiculously competitive, and you basically have to work for nothing to build a profile. This is exactly the same as the advice in this thread. Some of the jobs you can bid for frankly take the piss to an enormous degree (e.g. 500 yoga tracks needed! $30! You will smile when you deliver them!), but such is the charming nature of the global economy.

Where I have been earning hundreds of dollars is in voiceover work. I've lucked into a voiceover contract where I read educational articles in my lovely BBC accent. Much easier than spending hours on a mix, and it has already bought me a new guitar :-D

With that source of income, I'm even happier to continue working for free or a nominal fee to build mixing experience and a profile. So my advice is like that of others- take money where you can get it, do lots of favours, even offer to accompany bands when they go into the studio and take notes. It will all get you there quicker.

If anyone fancies a cheap mix, drop me a PM (I'm talking about me mixing your stuff for a tiny nominal fee that allows you to leave a review on the freelance site I use).

Here is a Mix im working on more recently. Done for a friend who gives me beer and food for my troubles.

if it were a random person id charge them though. Not much but still something.

Bring up your master for this, and tack Izotope Insight on your master buss. Run it thru start to finish and see what your LUFs meter reads at the end. -14...maybe -13.9 is about all you can get away with on Youtube last time I checked.

You are giving away a LOT of headroom here.

Recall your last multi-track before the master. Mult the guitar track. At least 3 trax, counting original and clones. Find the deep rich WOOD I know that gitar has in it on one, maybe pan it lefterly.

Spike up a pointy lookin thing on your EQ visual, maybe 10 dB high, and NARROW. Sweep it side to side SLOWLY, stop when you hear anything atrocious, jot down a note. Same thing for anything that makes you smile.

When you find sparkle, stop, and pan that right.

Vox go straight up the middle.

On cheap speakers, balance all three so they fill the stereo spread.

You may have to compress guitar a bit, no more than 3 dB per comp, use additional (different) comps to get it IN There, but not dead and lifeless. You should still SEE a ripply looking waveform, blocks are uncool.

Now draw a map of the song. Left to right, mark verses, choruses, etc. Intro, outro. LISTEN with your eyes closed.

Where is Peak Energy?

Where is Reverse Peak Energy? Where it gets so delicate you just barely move the speaker cone? And their hearts stop, tryna hear.

At Peak Energy, you're gonna let em hear ALL THERE IS. On the 'tube, THAT will be -13.9, kk?

At RPE, yer gonna pull faders down, cuz after ALL THERE IS.... DOWN is... ALL THAT'S LEFT.

In between RPE, (which leans em in, setting em up for the kill) and PE, you got up and down, all BELOW PE. Work em. **** wit their minds. Make em thinks its coming, then pull back. WORK em.

;-)

Now, that 3rd gtr track. Center it, full freq range. Bring it in when vox drops out. Back it off to let vox take center stage.

All 3 are synced up when all 3 play. No delay or time based fx, cuz it'll get weird, BUT... you can delay and phase and chorus and flange the 2 gtr trax BEHIND vox if it adds sparkle or wood, and THAT adds to the song.

There's your dynamic mix.

Print it.

Sleep on it.

Tomorrow, adjust your overall fader pulls and pushes. You probly over did em. Find the razors edge between not enough and silly overdone.

My mixes have got to a point where I don't feel like I'm ripping someone off if I charge them, and I've mixed stuff for indie labels before who said the mixes were the best they had had (but note this is bedroom indie stuff, nothing major).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjw63

With that source of income, I'm even happier to continue working for free or a nominal fee to build mixing experience and a profile. So my advice is like that of others- take money where you can get it, do lots of favours, even offer to accompany bands when they go into the studio and take notes. It will all get you there quicker.

If anyone fancies a cheap mix, drop me a PM (I'm talking about me mixing your stuff for a tiny nominal fee that allows you to leave a review on the freelance site I use).

I think some of us definitely think it's reasonable to charge for good work, and even that one shouldn't even do good work for free because it destroys the market for everyone (it does). It's just that in this case it seemed inadvisable.

Some of the jobs you can bid for frankly take the piss to an enormous degree (e.g. 500 yoga tracks needed! $30! You will smile when you deliver them!), but such is the charming nature of the global economy.
.

the race to the bottom has begun, and a lot of people have already gotten a head start on you!

a couple of years ago, I had an adult sax player sign up for my class because he had just gotten a Pro Tools rig to do self recording and remote sessions. He signed up with some thing that supposedly connected you with people looking for your skill. He was putting sax solos on people's recordings for five or ten dollars a pop.

mattiasnyc: For sure people should charge for good work. My advice was for this particular individual.

Unfortunately many industries require you to work for not very much before you have enough experience to get paid though. They all have one thing in common: far more people want to work in that industry than there are paid jobs available (journalism is the other classic). The best model would be for people to work as interns in studios, but that model is dying.

Most of the work I've done for free has actually been for some sort of in-kind contribution now I think about it. I've mixed stuff for bands that allowed me to play in Scandinavia by supplying all gear for the tour, etc. The only exceptions are very good friends, where the sessions are really for fun (which is dangerous, since much beer gets drunk, and little music gets made).

The race to the bottom has certainly begun on these freelancer sites, which is why I was surprised to pick up reasonable payment for the voiceover jobs. I still really think you get what you pay for though. If I was charging $5 for a mix (and for one that I hadn't agreed in advance to do for a favour), I would do hardly anything on it beyond basic balances, then slapping Ozone's mastering assistant on it. So my feeling is that that is exactly what I would get if I paid $5. I'd only pay someone who I think would do a better job than me, and I'd expect that to cost much more.

I must admit your post got me thinking about brass. I need some brass on a ska song soon, and was going to approach some local community brass bands, but freelancer slaves are tempting :-D

No, that's just not the case. For a fair amount of clients equipment absolutely matter.

If this wasn't the case then try to sell recording a vocalist with an SM57 into a Focusrite Scarlett and then a selection of vintage Neuman mics into vintage Neve preamps and a higher end converter... try selling recording with either setup and see if there's a difference in what people are willing to pay.

I think "unrelated" is still a strong word. I would never pay for a good engineer to record with sub-par equipment. That makes equipment quality a prerequisite. Of course so is the capability of the engineer. That's all I meant.

FWIW I don't drum although I had sets. 0 aptitude. I do pay for drummers and the above advice is good. Figure you will need a decent setup and be able to mic the 13 or so sources drums have. Anyway, if I had an experienced mixer who could do my drum tracks it'd be worth paying extra, and I love turning people to great resources, so you should be able to build up clients........ Good luck!.......