JetSetter - When you start at a firm on Wall St you start in the mail room making 25k per year while your boss is making $50 million per year. People act like the UFC is so out of line with the rest of society but its all relative.

The reality in life is Be the best and get the best pay or change professions

When you make it to the UFC, you've proven to be the best according to them. They state they have all the best fighters.. and yet the monicker of U FIGHT CHEAP is stated by many behind the scenes.

They certainly are the best outside of the ufc by by getting the call but once they come in they still have to do even more to show that they belong. Getting your foot in doesn't automatically mean your the best figher that deserves big pay days.

If only the very best desrve a living wage then MMA is not a sport, it's a gameshow.

Lux Fixxins - These threads always show what posters know nothing about business

I think most people aren't endeavoring to look at this from a business point of view, but are looking at it in the purely humanistic sense. They put the business aspect aside completely and take a purely emotional stance, maybe it stems from lack of knowledge about business as you say or maybe they are so invested and love the sport and fighters so much it is hard for them to look from the other side.

JetSetter - When you start at a firm on Wall St you start in the mail room making 25k per year while your boss is making $50 million per year. People act like the UFC is so out of line with the rest of society but its all relative.

The reality in life is Be the best and get the best pay or change professions

When you make it to the UFC, you've proven to be the best according to them. They state they have all the best fighters.. and yet the monicker of U FIGHT CHEAP is stated by many behind the scenes.

They certainly are the best outside of the ufc by by getting the call but once they come in they still have to do even more to show that they belong. Getting your foot in doesn't automatically mean your the best figher that deserves big pay days.

If only the very best desrve a living wage then MMA is not a sport, it's a gameshow.

This. If you make it to the UFC you deserve a living wage. If they're trying to be a legitimate mainstream sport then all their fighters should be full-time UFC fighters, not UFC fighters sometimes and firefighters or office workers or whatever the rest of the time unless they really love their day job and don't need it to support themselves.

JetSetter - When you start at a firm on Wall St you start in the mail room making 25k per year while your boss is making $50 million per year. People act like the UFC is so out of line with the rest of society but its all relative.

The reality in life is Be the best and get the best pay or change professions

you must watch a lot of movies with this above statement... how could you just write such bullshit?

Starting in the mailroom? really?

Seriously. Everyone knows successful financial analysts all started as janitors.

"People who think the fighters should be making all the money and the Fertittas should be breaking even..."

JetSetter - When you start at a firm on Wall St you start in the mail room making 25k per year while your boss is making $50 million per year. People act like the UFC is so out of line with the rest of society but its all relative.

The reality in life is Be the best and get the best pay or change professions

you must watch a lot of movies with this above statement... how could you just write such bullshit?

Starting in the mailroom? really?

Serious LOL and VTFU

Guy saw Secret of my Success and formulated his entire opinion of the finance industry around it

Frank Mir Cat - People who think the fighters should be making all the money and the Fertittas should be breaking even don't know shit about the real world. That's not how business works, the boss gets paid and then everyone else, the less valuable to the company, the less you get paid. (Unless you're unionized, in that system, useless pieces of shit can keep their jobs as long as they make their democratic party donations, er...I mean pay their monthly dues)

And with all due respect to Mr. Cholish, I doubt he was generating 8k in ticket sales or PPV buys, so his complaining makes him seem like a ingrate to me.

He doesn't need to generate $8k in ticket sales directly. He provides the UFC with content to put on the card. Without content, they can't sell a $60 PPV card. He is part of the UFC. Customers buy cards with him on it because he is part of the UFC, but the UFC cannot exist without him (and others like him). This is pretty simple.

explodin - Does anyone think the UFC is making money off of fighters like Cholish? Do you think Cholish is generating a bunch of revenue that they aren't sharing... I know 4 and 4 seems like a joke, but the UFC definitely doesn't profit off him.

A big part of the UFC brand is the undercard. How many boring main events have been saved by the guys on the undercard and prelims having a war? They can hope for a bonus but that's a pretty unreliable and subjective way to pay the bills.

Also it would work in the UFC and fans favour to have fighters who can afford proper full time training and aren't working extra jobs and leaving the sport for financial reasons. You'd see a lot more great prospects if they had a reasonable expectation of making some kind of living without cracking the top five.

The fights have to happen and they can save a card, the problem is that no one is ordering a PPV or buying a ticket because guys like Cholish are on the card.

I don't agree. Those Facebook and Fuel prelims are a great promotion for PPVs and the UFC brand in general. And personally speaking I am way more interested in a scrap between hungry undercard guys than say another Benson Henderson jabathon.

And if fighters become "names" do they then automatically make good money? Korean Zombie said he barely breaks even before sponsorships, and plenty of people want to see him fight.

Frank Mir Cat - People who think the fighters should be making all the money and the Fertittas should be breaking even don't know shit about the real world. That's not how business works, the boss gets paid and then everyone else, the less valuable to the company, the less you get paid. (Unless you're unionized, in that system, useless pieces of shit can keep their jobs as long as they make their democratic party donations, er...I mean pay their monthly dues)

And with all due respect to Mr. Cholish, I doubt he was generating 8k in ticket sales or PPV buys, so his complaining makes him seem like a ingrate to me.

He doesn't need to generate $8k in ticket sales directly. He provides the UFC with content to put on the card. Without content, they can't sell a $60 PPV card. He is part of the UFC. Customers buy cards with him on it because he is part of the UFC, but the UFC cannot exist without him (and others like him). This is pretty simple.

Haha, what?

I'm hearing you say:

People buy cards because its the UFC + Cholish is in the UFC = people buy UFC cards because Cholish is fighting

Frank Mir Cat - People who think the fighters should be making all the money and the Fertittas should be breaking even don't know shit about the real world. That's not how business works, the boss gets paid and then everyone else, the less valuable to the company, the less you get paid. (Unless you're unionized, in that system, useless pieces of shit can keep their jobs as long as they make their democratic party donations, er...I mean pay their monthly dues)

And with all due respect to Mr. Cholish, I doubt he was generating 8k in ticket sales or PPV buys, so his complaining makes him seem like a ingrate to me.

He doesn't need to generate $8k in ticket sales directly. He provides the UFC with content to put on the card. Without content, they can't sell a $60 PPV card. He is part of the UFC. Customers buy cards with him on it because he is part of the UFC, but the UFC cannot exist without him (and others like him). This is pretty simple.

Haha, what?

I'm hearing you say:

People buy cards because its the UFC + Cholish is in the UFC = people buy UFC cards because Cholish is fighting

Frank Mir Cat - People who think the fighters should be making all the money and the Fertittas should be breaking even don't know shit about the real world. That's not how business works, the boss gets paid and then everyone else, the less valuable to the company, the less you get paid. (Unless you're unionized, in that system, useless pieces of shit can keep their jobs as long as they make their democratic party donations, er...I mean pay their monthly dues)

And with all due respect to Mr. Cholish, I doubt he was generating 8k in ticket sales or PPV buys, so his complaining makes him seem like a ingrate to me.

He doesn't need to generate $8k in ticket sales directly. He provides the UFC with content to put on the card. Without content, they can't sell a $60 PPV card. He is part of the UFC. Customers buy cards with him on it because he is part of the UFC, but the UFC cannot exist without him (and others like him). This is pretty simple.

Haha, what?

I'm hearing you say:

People buy cards because its the UFC + Cholish is in the UFC = people buy UFC cards because Cholish is fighting

That's because you suffer from poor reading skills.

I think it's more a case of you not being able to clearly express your simple thoughts.

Fighters get paid to put asses in seats, bottom line. A fighter who doesn't do this, doesn't have much a of a reason to complain about pay.

JetSetter - When you start at a firm on Wall St you start in the mail room making 25k per year while your boss is making $50 million per year. People act like the UFC is so out of line with the rest of society but its all relative.

The reality in life is Be the best and get the best pay or change professions

you must watch a lot of movies with this above statement... how could you just write such bullshit?

Starting in the mailroom? really?

VTFU. Hahaha "JetSetter"......

I have worked for two Wall Street firms. You didn't get a job as an entry level associate if your resume didnt have all the right things straight out of school (= grades, jobs, sports, recommendations).

No one at a brokerage firm is making $50m. You have to be Ray Dalio, Steve Cohen, Dave Tepper, or some other guy that is running a fund that he started from scratch and that could market the shit out of a few good years of performance.

Frank & Lorenzo deserve much of what they have for putting the capital up at a time when it sucked. But some guy on a UFC card should not be making less than $10k for a fight.

bad analogy. I worked in investment banking and ufc fighters are not the equivalent of mail room workers.

They're the associates, vps and mds at a bank and those guys make between 200k to millions. The mailroom guy at an ibank is basically the guy that collects tickets at UFC events.

caseharts - I will be happy when a Union comes about. 4000 is a tad low imo. Minimum should be 25 k pet fight.

This

You do realize unions are the reason the UFC isn't in New York?

Yes, and all unions are identical, right?

I think the best thing would be for the UFC to not give any fighters a reason to form a union in the first place. They should be pro-active here like they were with health insurance.

Now thankfully 4k purses in the UFC are rare but they shouldn't exist at all. That the UFC's pay structure compares unfavorably with Major League Soccer, an organization with less gross revenue (even after PPV distributors take their share of PPV buys), more athletes, far more administrative officials (this is due to 19 franchises), and roughly equal mainstream exposure and acceptance, is not a positive thing. What's more the UFC has been profitable for a longer period of time now.

Reimbursing the fighters for a portion of their gym fees is not going to make them less hungry, it will just make it easier for them to train. Giving them 3 plane tickets and 2 hotel rooms for them and their cornermen instead of 2 plane tickets and 1 hotel room is only keeping up with the times at this point (how many UFC fighters have only one cornermen?). Paying for 6 days worth of accomodations for fighters coming from overseas to acclimate instead of 4 is just helping to level the playing field instead of forcing fighters to pay for it themselves. Giving a tiny stipend of $500 a month that is well below a living wage by itself is not going to make them lazy, it just makes it easier to figure out a budget during the longer stretches between fights, and making it so fewer fighters have to get a part time job on the side. Guaranteeing that even the lowest paid fighter will get $8k + $8k means that when combined with the other things, if they get 2.4 fights a year and you combine it with the other things they should be able to make ends meet without working part-time at Home Depot. Giving a $500 a day per diem for fighters (usually stars) when they're flown somewhere to do press conferences and give in-person media interviews compensates a little bit for time that could be spent training.

And altogether you could do all this for less than $20 million annually and both do the right thing and have to worry much less about a union, without seriously hurting the UFC's profitability. You might have fewer dudes retiring prematurely too. We've seen far more significant fighters than John Cholish retire as of late.

The, "paid what you're worth to the company" argument for lower guys is the same in every sport but other sports because the union fought for it, those guys make 35-40k minimum even in the bottom level pro sport like MLS.

3 fights at 4k even winning is only 24k sans bonuses, and the UFC makes in some reports more and in some aroung the same revenue as MLS. Without forcing the fighters to eventually try some ill-advised union initiative the UFC should pre-emptive raise it to 10k Minimuim at least so 2-1 makes you 50k a fine living for the avg person. The MLS also has more or less double the athletes.

caseharts - I will be happy when a Union comes about. 4000 is a tad low imo. Minimum should be 25 k pet fight.

This

You do realize unions are the reason the UFC isn't in New York?

Yes, and all unions are identical, right?

I think the best thing would be for the UFC to not give any fighters a reason to form a union in the first place. They should be pro-active here like they were with health insurance.

Now thankfully 4k purses in the UFC are rare but they shouldn't exist at all. That the UFC's pay structure compares unfavorably with Major League Soccer, an organization with less gross revenue (even after PPV distributors take their share of PPV buys), more athletes, far more administrative officials (this is due to 19 franchises), and roughly equal mainstream exposure and acceptance, is not a positive thing. What's more the UFC has been profitable for a longer period of time now.

Reimbursing the fighters for a portion of their gym fees is not going to make them less hungry, it will just make it easier for them to train. Giving them 3 plane tickets and 2 hotel rooms for them and their cornermen instead of 2 plane tickets and 1 hotel room is only keeping up with the times at this point (how many UFC fighters have only one cornermen?). Paying for 6 days worth of accomodations for fighters coming from overseas to acclimate instead of 4 is just helping to level the playing field instead of forcing fighters to pay for it themselves. Giving a tiny stipend of $500 a month that is well below a living wage by itself is not going to make them lazy, it just makes it easier to figure out a budget during the longer stretches between fights, and making it so fewer fighters have to get a part time job on the side. Guaranteeing that even the lowest paid fighter will get $8k + $8k means that when combined with the other things, if they get 2.4 fights a year and you combine it with the other things they should be able to make ends meet without working part-time at Home Depot. Giving a $500 a day per diem for fighters (usually stars) when they're flown somewhere to do press conferences and give in-person media interviews compensates a little bit for time that could be spent training.

And altogether you could do all this for less than $20 million annually and both do the right thing and have to worry much less about a union, without seriously hurting the UFC's profitability. You might have fewer dudes retiring prematurely too. We've seen far more significant fighters than John Cholish retire as of late.

JetSetter - When you start at a firm on Wall St you start in the mail room making 25k per year while your boss is making $50 million per year. People act like the UFC is so out of line with the rest of society but its all relative.

The reality in life is Be the best and get the best pay or change professions

When you make it to the UFC, you've proven to be the best according to them. They state they have all the best fighters.. and yet the monicker of U FIGHT CHEAP is stated by many behind the scenes.

No Ryann, it doesn't mean they have made it and have proven themselves to be the best. It means they have gotten Zuffa's attention and have earned the ability to compete in the big show. How well they do in their first few fights determines how good they are and if they'll continue having a spot on that stage.

Making it to the UFC doesn't mean job security because keeping your spot can be much harder than getting your foot in the door. But performing well and leaving it all in the cage can lead to HUGE paychecks and bonuses, you know that.

Cindy

How can it be the "BIG SHOW" if it has a bunch of unproven fighters on it.............................?

Because this BIG SHOW typically test drives and cultivates new/unproven talent on the prelim cards, most (if not all) of which are televised for free. They aren't popular yet and that's where they'll prove themselves to be (or not to be) UFC level material. Under Zuffa's banner the exposure to hundreds of thousands of MMA fans (via Fox/Fuel/FX) can be priceless to these up and coming fighters as they try to work their way up in the rankings and onto the main cards (and then PPV), build their fan base and reputation, as well as land sponsorships (or negotiate bigger ones).

New talent ($10k/$10k or less) rarely (if ever) generates revenue for Zuffa so they're paid accordingly until they can/do but they still have some of the same opportunities the headliners do to make more money with each bout. A victory moves them to the next level pay-wise as the purse and win bonus amounts increase (ie 4k/4k, 6k/6k, 8k/8k, rtc). And because the UFC is the BIG SHOW, impressive performances (win or lose) are rewarded with discretionary/"lockeroom" bonus checks. Amounts are usually (if not always) higher than their prelim purses and if their fight, submission and/or KO is deemed to be the best of the night they can pick up an additional $50k bonus. The little shows don't/can't offer these things..

I can think of no other promotion that is ready, willing or able to offer new/entry level talent a comparable start or anything better than the BIG SHOW. I can't even think of a promotion that pays their entry level fighters better than the UFC (their minimum purse is $4k) or one that provides medical insurance with event and non-event coverage. I guess those are BIG SHOW benefits, too.

Like I said on another thread, the "Super Bowl of MMA" moniker is just a goofy promotional tool, the comparison between the UFC and the NFL/NBA/MLB isn't really valid. In any of those leagues, making it into the league means you're among the best players in the world, effectively better than any player that isn't in the league. In the UFC this isn't the case. There are plenty of marginal fighters in the UFC who are far worse than many fighters in other promotions. Like I said, John Cholish may not even be top 100 in his weight class.

I don't think minimum pay is an issue. What I do think is an issue is the win bonus system. No way should 50% of your salary be dependent on a victory. That is really oppressive. Guys making 5/5 should really be making 8/2 or something like that.

Jstmike -
Maybe UFC should not pay a per fight purse, but instead a monthly salary. Factor in the cost of living where the fighter lives and what ever other variables there may be. There could a base salary for Guys with 5 or less UFC fights. Possibly something like $75,000 a year...probably wouldn't work though I guess

Have you ever heard of the IFL? Their business model was similar and they went out of business in less than 3 years after losing tens of millions of dollars. They had a TV deal within the first 6 months and became a publicly traded company by the end of the first year so we're not talking about a low rent promotion with no resources.

Overpaying the roster contributed to the demise and/or forced sell of the IFL as well as Bodog, WFA, EliteXC, Affliction, and Strikeforce which should be a pretty good sign that the UFC shouldn't go the same route. And if the lower level fighters could make more money elsewhere wouldn't they have signed with another promoter?

I would be interested in knowing how much the current 4k/4k fighters made in their last match prior to signing with the UFC. At least then we'd know if they made a step forwards or backwards. I wonder how much their sponsorships went up or down after signing with Zuffa and how many went from never having a televised fight to having every fight broatcast on national and/or international TV.

I doubt many (if any) are worse off with the UFC than they were with their previous organization and venture to say most are far better off now in every way. The opportunity to fight in the UFC can be career changing and door opening experiences and good managers know how to make the most of it for their clients. Unfortunately, good representation in the sport of MMA seems to be hard to find and not that many managers/agents have figured out how to really leverage the features and benefits of their clients and exploit those strengths in any decent way immaginable for the maximum monetary gain. The UFC will only promote your fight at fight time. Its up to the fighter and his reps to self-promote the athlete and his brand the rest of the time. I bet this area is a vast, largely untapped, and growing every day:)

Jstmike -
Maybe UFC should not pay a per fight purse, but instead a monthly salary. Factor in the cost of living where the fighter lives and what ever other variables there may be. There could a base salary for Guys with 5 or less UFC fights. Possibly something like $75,000 a year...probably wouldn't work though I guess

Have you ever heard of the IFL? Their business model was similar and they went out of business in less than 3 years after losing tens of millions of dollars. They had a TV deal within the first 6 months and became a publicly traded company by the end of the first year so we're not talking about a low rent promotion with no resources.

Overpaying the roster contributed to the demise and/or forced sell of the IFL as well as Bodog, WFA, EliteXC, Affliction, and Strikeforce which should be a pretty good sign that the UFC shouldn't go the same route. And if the lower level fighters could make more money elsewhere wouldn't they have signed with another promoter?

I would be interested in knowing how much the current 4k/4k fighters made in their last match prior to signing with the UFC. At least then we'd know if they made a step forwards or backwards. I wonder how much their sponsorships went up or down after signing with Zuffa and how many went from never having a televised fight to having every fight broatcast on national and/or international TV.

I doubt many (if any) are worse off with the UFC than they were with their previous organization and venture to say most are far better off now in every way. The opportunity to fight in the UFC can be career changing and door opening experiences and good managers know how to make the most of it for their clients. Unfortunately, good representation in the sport of MMA seems to be hard to find and not that many managers/agents have figured out how to really leverage the features and benefits of their clients and exploit those strengths in any decent way immaginable for the maximum monetary gain. The UFC will only promote your fight at fight time. Its up to the fighter and his reps to self-promote the athlete and his brand the rest of the time. I bet this area is a vast, largely untapped, and growing every day:)

Yikes, sorry for the frat!

Cindy

No.

If you fight in the UFC, you deserve millions... Perhaps billions of dollars just to show.

Tomato Can - Like I said on another thread, the "Super Bowl of MMA" moniker is just a goofy promotional tool, the comparison between the UFC and the NFL/NBA/MLB isn't really valid. In any of those leagues, making it into the league means you're among the best players in the world, effectively better than any player that isn't in the league.

We've been comparing it to Major League Soccer dude -_-

And if you'll read, it's not an unfair comparison and the UFC does not come out favorably right now.

I think they _could_ come out more legit with some non-egregious adjustments to their pay structure but haven't yet.

Tomato Can - Like I said on another thread, the "Super Bowl of MMA" moniker is just a goofy promotional tool, the comparison between the UFC and the NFL/NBA/MLB isn't really valid. In any of those leagues, making it into the league means you're among the best players in the world, effectively better than any player that isn't in the league. In the UFC this isn't the case. There are plenty of marginal fighters in the UFC who are far worse than many fighters in other promotions. Like I said, John Cholish may not even be top 100 in his weight class.

I don't think minimum pay is an issue. What I do think is an issue is the win bonus system. No way should 50% of your salary be dependent on a victory. That is really oppressive. Guys making 5/5 should really be making 8/2 or something like that.

What percentage of revenue do UFC fighters get? What percent do athletes in other sports get?

Yeah, maybe a guy like John Cholish would never be able to make a living off of fighting, but why did Shane Carwin get paid like 60k to fight Brock Lesnar for the heavyweight title in a huge PPV?

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