Sen. John McCain, who built a potent political career on his record as a Vietnam veteran and ex-prisoner of war, on Tuesday told the leaders of every military branch he cannot in good conscience advise women to join the service as the military grapples to contain and curb its sexual assault epidemic.

"Just last night, a woman came to me and said her daughter wanted to join the military and could I give my unqualified support for her doing so. I could not," McCain, an Arizona Republican, said during a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing examining whether all serious sexual crimes should be removed from the chain of command.

Can't say I disagree. I've got a niece that's nearly 10, and recently saw an air show that prompted her to tell her parents that she wants to join the Air Force. If she were graduating this year I have to say I would be concerned. While sexual assault in the military is certainly nothing new, it does seem to be getting worse rather than better. Or perhaps it's simply more publicized now. They keep talking about it but they don't seem to be doing anything significant to improve things.

Edited, Jun 4th 2013 4:38pm by Kakar

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Some people are like slinkies, they aren't really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

Realistically, that's meaningless. Rapes are just as common elsewhere in society, we just find them particularly insulting in this context. 1 in 4 women is raped at college. Are you going to tell your niece not to go to university, because the chance of her getting raped is too high?

The reality is that there's very, very little a woman can do to protect herself from rape. It's a fact that has been consistently upheld by studies, but is contrary to the public wisdom our culture holds. It's well-proven that there's no correlation between rape and dress, it's not possible for a woman to be constantly vigilant and slipping a date-rape drug into a drink is way too easy, and there are going to be many occasions in a woman's life where she'll be moving from point A to B alone.

What studies DO show is that peer education is far more effective to prevent rapes. You teach everyone how to recognize the signs of major risk factors for rape (signs of date rape drugs, signs that someone has past their limit with alcohol, signs that a guy is "circling" a girl, etc.). Programs on college campuses have found that teaching these courses, in conjunction with very active advocacy with regards to the actual threat of rape (as in, it's not at all unlikely that a girl at the party you are at could get raped that night. At all), have found that it does lead to a significant increase in rape prevention.

At the end of the day, rape is realistically an expression of gender dominance in the majority of cases. It's not about ***, it's about power and control.

You can't teach a girl to be seen as a human being in another person's eyes. The best you can do is teach boys to see everyone else as people. And that's clearly a very long term solution.

The reality is that I seriously doubt there's a significant difference in risk for woman who are actually out in the world, regardless of if they're working, at college, or in the military.

And if I had to choose one, I'd say that the military would be the best choice in the long term for a woman who wishes to learn how to actually defend herself from a would-be rapist. Because the reality is that all options suck, but this option is the only one that comes with combat training.

1 in 1 DOJ statistic is being interpreted incorrectly in your post. The number is actually (foregoing the whole 'women don't admit to being raped out of shame' thing) around 1 in 12. Which is much less interesting. If you'd like more information about how the factoid you blindly splooged into your post without spending 5 seconds researching is incorrect, let me know.

____________________________

Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

The reality is that there's very, very little a woman can do to protect herself from rape. It's a fact that has been consistently upheld by studies, but is contrary to the public wisdom our culture holds.

WTF? Being a victim of a crime does not mean that there aren't things women (and men for that matter) can do to protect themselves from rape. You're obviously just making up stuff to support your claim.

idiggory wrote:

It's well-proven that there's no correlation between rape and dress,

Is there a correlation between sexual harassment and sexual assault?

idiggory wrote:

It's well-proven that there's no correlation between rape and dress, it's not possible for a woman to be constantly vigilant and slipping a date-rape drug into a drink is way too easy, and there are going to be many occasions in a woman's life where she'll be moving from point A to B alone.

Unless the bartender is drugging you, there are things you can do to prevent being a drugged. As a non-drinker, I've had people buy me drinks in attempt to see me drunk. I was smart enough not to drink them.

Since you're big on stats, I think most stats show that most rapes happen from known people, not strangers off the street.

idiggory wrote:

What studies DO show is that peer education is far more effective to prevent rapes. You teach everyone how to recognize the signs of major risk factors for rape (signs of date rape drugs, signs that someone has past their limit with alcohol, signs that a guy is "circling" a girl, etc.). Programs on college campuses have found that teaching these courses, in conjunction with very active advocacy with regards to the actual threat of rape (as in, it's not at all unlikely that a girl at the party you are at could get raped that night. At all), have found that it does lead to a significant increase in rape prevention.

So, there are things that a woman can do to help prevent being raped?

idiggory wrote:

At the end of the day, rape is realistically an expression of gender dominance in the majority of cases. It's not about ***, it's about power and control.

That depends on how literal you are defining "power and control". That's some psychological nonsense that society say to try to understand a rapist. I would argue that most rapes occur when a man is expecting *** and the woman disagrees/changes her mind. If the woman agreed, I would argue that there wouldn't have been a rape. However, if it were based on "power and control", then the rape would happen regardless of the woman's intention. I would agree in the cases where the victim is a minor, power and control is probably a larger factor.

idiggory wrote:

You can't teach a girl to be seen as a human being in another person's eyes. The best you can do is teach boys to see everyone else as people. And that's clearly a very long term solution.

False. You can very well teach women to respect themselves and be seen as humans in other eyes. What you meant to say is that, regardless on how a woman presents herself, that is not an excuse to rape her. At the same time, you can't argue that she can't do anything about her image.

idiggory wrote:

The reality is that I seriously doubt there's a significant difference in risk for woman who are actually out in the world, regardless of if they're working, at college, or in the military.

You're simply wrong. This goes back to DADT. The military is unique in living conditions and *** restrictions. While sexual harassment maybe prevalent everywhere, sexual assault definitely varies when you have sexually depraved half naked people living next to each other.

idiggory wrote:

And if I had to choose one, I'd say that the military would be the best choice in the long term for a woman who wishes to learn how to actually defend herself from a would-be rapist. Because the reality is that all options suck, but this option is the only one that comes with combat training.

Yes, all the other links I edited into my post were college-specific. Some say 1 in 5, some say 1 in 4. Either way, it's far, far higher than 1 in 12.

Except those numbers didn't come from actual studies.

How extensive is rape among college women? wrote:

[...]the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educa- tional institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter. [18]

Quote:

18. These projections are suggestive. To assess accurately the victimization risk for women throughout a college career, longitudinal research following a cohort of female students across time is needed

You'd be wrong. According to that article, 1 in 3 women in the military are victims of sexual assault vs. 1 in 6 in the civilian world.

It's also clear from reading the article, and accounts by victims, that despite the token efforts by military brass there is still a lot of cover-up activity and lack of follow through in investigating and prosecuting attackers. And having been in the military, I don't really think the combat training you refer to would help any more than taking self defense or any sort of karate lessons. I say that as a former military member. Unless you end up in the Seals, Rangers, etc you don't get all that much combat training other than learning how to shoot and some basic hand-to-hand if you're Army or Marines.

So yeah, I'd rather she go to college.

____________________________

Some people are like slinkies, they aren't really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

Yes, all the other links I edited into my post were college-specific. Some say 1 in 5, some say 1 in 4. Either way, it's far, far higher than 1 in 12.

Except those numbers didn't come from actual studies.

How extensive is rape among college women? wrote:

[...]the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educa- tional institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter. [18]

Quote:

18. These projections are suggestive. To assess accurately the victimization risk for women throughout a college career, longitudinal research following a cohort of female students across time is needed

Every study, ever, uses statistical projections. And, yes, the more data you have over time makes for a better study.

That doesn't invalidate this research. That's an absurd stance.

All it says is that research with more data points would be preferable. In this case, the two principle questions that would need to be answered are whether or not the rate of rapes remains stable across years (which, given that each of these studies WAS conducted in different years, I'm guessing is either stable or on a slight decline), and the rate at which rapes are committed against victims previously targeted (which, if meaningful, would obviously influence the statistic with regards to number of women).

Also, the fact that they recommend further study isn't a flag for concern, it's basic procedure. Every study will end with a discussion of challenges they faced, how they addressed those challenges (if they could), and all factors that could affect their conclusions. They will supplement this with a call to action with regards to topic areas where data is lacking. For a study on something like this, longitudinal data is the natural conclusion. As it is for every study with an open-ended timeline. It's built into the central concept.

[EDIT]

And I'm willing to trust Kakar's link that the rate of assault is 1 in 3 for women in the military. The same link says it's 1 in 6 for civilians.

That said, the link does NOT say that 1 in 3 women in the military are raped while in the military, while on duty, by service members, etc. And to be clear, I'm talking about the item they actually cited, which has a link in their references section.

It's specifically stating the population of female veterans, 1/3 of which report a history of sexual abuse when they initially join (according to that same source).

You're completely ignoring the fact that there may be a significant correlation between past assault and a desire to join the armed forces.

The only statistics that source cite with regards to rapes internally is that estimates range from 20% to 48%. So, 1 in 5 (roughly civilian) to about 1 in 2 (way worse than civilian). College rape frequency is almost certainly higher than with civilians. Maybe it's lower, maybe it's higher. I don't really care which is the worse environment. Because my only point was that discouraging a young woman from entering into the armed forces because there's potential she could be raped is absurd when the clear alternative, college, is (at best) almost just as bad.

I'm inclined to believe it would be far healthier to give her your encouragement with whatever career path she chooses, with eyes wide open, so that if (god forbid) something terrible happens, she's not faced with a culture of "I told you so."

The reality is that there's very, very little a woman can do to protect herself from rape. It's a fact that has been consistently upheld by studies, but is contrary to the public wisdom our culture holds.

Bull.

Quote:

It's well-proven that there's no correlation between rape and dress

Dress has nothing to do with it.

Quote:

It's not possible for a woman to be constantly vigilant and slipping a date-rape drug into a drink is way too easy, and there are going to be many occasions in a woman's life where she'll be moving from point A to B alone.

All it says is that research with more data points would be preferable.

There's a ton of data. The number for being the victim of a sexual assault while at college is about 1 in 12. You not understanding statistics doesn't imply a lack of data. Let it the fuck go. 1 in 1000 is too high of a number, it's just lazy and intellectually dishonest to use a bullsh*t manufactured shock statistic that should be next to a chart in USA today to try to make your point more convincing. It's already convincing, it doesn't require lazy lies that undermine it. 1 in 4 women who have attended college might have been victims of assault...in their lifetime. Assaulted while at university? Not the case. Actually one of the least likely places to be such a victim. While the age cohort is the most likely to experience being victimized, the occurrences are heavily weighted towards break periods. So heavily, in fact, that's more likely a woman will be assaulted home on break than at school.

Hysteria doesn't help.

Edited, Jun 5th 2013 8:41am by Smasharoo

____________________________

Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her. If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her. If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her. If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her. If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her. If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her. If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her. If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her. If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her. If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her. If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her. If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her. If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her. If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her. If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her. If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her. If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend. If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police. If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist. Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone. Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape. Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x. Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault. Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.

That would work, too.

____________________________

Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her. If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her. If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her. If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her. If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her. If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her. If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her. If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her. If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her. If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her. If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her. If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her. If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her. If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her. If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her. If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her. If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend. If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police. If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist. Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone. Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape. Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x. Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault. Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.

That would work, too.

Sure, if you're the raper, you know - don't rape. Most of us are looking at this from the other side. If you're simply a person that wants to avoid violence or unwanted sexual advances from others, avoiding getting drunk in strange bars will reduce your chances of that.

Telling my would be rapist in the moment not to rape me is not really the most effective method of avoiding the crime.

If you don't want your wallet stolen it's probably not a good idea to leave it on your table at the restaurant when you go to the bathroom. Or I suppose you could just make an announcement to the all in the dining room asking nicely that you'd like for no one to steal or tamper with your wallet while you step away to relieve yourself.

Sure, if you're the raper, you know - don't rape. Most of us are looking at this from the other side. If you're simply a person that wants to avoid violence or unwanted sexual advances from others, avoiding getting drunk in strange bars will reduce your chances of that.

No, it probably won't. Most rapes aren't committed by drunken strangers, and the implication that the punishment for being a young woman who wants to drink and have fun and meet people she doesn't know is rape is honestly fairly insulting. Women are allowed to drink, wear whatever they want, flirt, have *** with strangers, change their minds mid *** act, etc. All without being raped. Would you advise people to "reduce their chances" of being car jacked by not driving?

If you don't want your wallet stolen it's probably not a good idea to leave it on your table at the restaurant when you go to the bathroom. Or I suppose you could just make an announcement to the all in the dining room asking nicely that you'd like for no one to steal or tamper with your wallet while you step away to relieve yourself.

Bad metaphor. Better metaphor "Dressing your wallet in a modest bonnet and full length dress will dissuade the wallet thieves"

Edited, Jun 5th 2013 8:48am by Smasharoo

____________________________

Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

Sure, if you're the raper, you know - don't rape. Most of us are looking at this from the other side. If you're simply a person that wants to avoid violence or unwanted sexual advances from others, avoiding getting drunk in strange bars will reduce your chances of that.

No, it probably won't. Most rapes aren't committed by drunken strangers, and the implication that the punishment for being a young woman who wants to drink and have fun and meet people she doesn't know is rape is honestly fairly insulting. Women are allowed to drink, wear whatever they want, flirt, have *** with strangers, change their minds mid *** act, etc. All without being raped. Would you advise people to "reduce their chances" of being car jacked by not driving?

The quote I was responding to, mentioned date-rape.

Let's not call it a bar then, lets call it a frat house, or a bon-fire in the back forties. Any place young people congregate, and consume mind-altering stuff, there is a higher likely hood of one of them taking sexual advantage of another.

What I find insulting is that you think you have a clue about getting raped or not getting raped.

Would you advise people to "reduce their chances" of being car jacked by not driving?

No but I might advice them to lock their car doors. I know, I know, we free citizens have every right to drive around with our car doors unlocked. But still if you're really worried about car-jacking, I'd probably forego that little right.

What I find insulting is that you think you have a clue about getting raped or not getting raped.

Sure, I'm a not a woman and I've never been raped, so how could I possibly understand any of the social dynamics. What? Education? Meaningless! Rape sucks, sorry if something terrible happened to you. That said, being raped gives one no special insight into causes or risk factors, and if anything makes it almost impossible to objectively asses them.

So let's be clear, about the worst people to offer advice about reducing the instance of sexual assault are rape victims. It's the same reason we don't take car safety advice from people who were in horrible accidents instead of engineers.

____________________________

Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

No, you just accept the risk that bad things might happen and weight it against your fear of that bad thing. The fear of being car jacked is less than your desire to drive a car. It's the same thing with the "don't drink with strangers". The vast overwhelming number of women drinking with strangers....won't be raped. If the fear of the bad outcome was sufficient people would take your advice without needing it. Offering it adds fear without adding safety. It's worse than useless.

____________________________

Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

So let's be clear, about the worst people to offer advice about reducing the instance of sexual assault are rape victims. It's the same reason we don't take car safety advice from people who were in horrible accidents instead of engineers.

You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped. You're talking about 'incidences'. Go for it. That's what you do.

It's not gonna help me a lick when i have to decide if I'm going to go full -out drunk when I'm visiting a friend in a strange city and then, in the wee hours of the morning, will I take public transportation or a cap to my hotel room on the other side of town.

No, you just accept the risk that bad things might happen and weight it against your fear of that bad thing. The fear of being car jacked is less than your desire to drive a car. It's the same thing with the "don't drink with strangers". The vast overwhelming number of women drinking with strangers....won't be raped. If the fear of the bad outcome was sufficient people would take your advice without needing it. Offering it adds fear without adding safety. It's worse than useless.

It's useless to reduce risk?

i'd be pretty fearful of a person who's trying to coach me on personal safety and tells me there is nothing i can do to make my person safer.

You haven't offered up one piece of advice for an individual who wants to avoid being raped.

There isn't any. That's the point. Offering "advice" makes rape a ludicrous morality play where the victim who went drinking with strangers should have known better. "Oh she didn't take the 'advice' and she got raped. Tsk tsk, let's quietly smugly **** shame her and pat ourselves on our backs for being such poor 'rape targets'" Rape isn't about victims making mistakes.

____________________________

Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

Your advice doesn't do that. It's based on a fantasy that doesn't exist in the real world. Sorry.

____________________________

Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.