There are a lot of people living in the past in this thread. Here's how I would rank each offensive position in the division by team:

QB:
1. Philly
1a. Dallas
3. NYG
4. Washington

Commentary:
McNabb is a helluva talent, and has done some awesome things in his time. But think about this for a second. Bledsoe is the guy that gets the wrap for throwing awful Ints and costing his team games. Everyone remembers the Seattle game last year when he threw that horrible pass that set up the game winning FG for the Hawks.....but McNabb threw horrible interceptions that cost his team the game in TWO CONSECUTIVE GAMES. First against Washington directly to the LB inside the 10 yard line when they were going in to tie the game, and then right to Roy for a return TD that basically killed their season, and yet Bledsoe is the bad decision maker. Give me a break. As for Manning, he is young and still very much in his developmental stages. BBD brought up the point of how many yards and TDs he had in his first season as a starter....well gues what? He threw more passes than any other QB in the league besides Favre and Collins, two players on bad teams that were always behind. His YPA (which is a much more accurate indicator of success) was 17th in the league behind such stalwarts as McCown, Dilfer and on par with (you guessed it) Brunell and Aaron Brooks. He was also 23rd in passer rating and had a horrid comp %. And you don't want to get started on more intricate and in-depth stats like KC Joyner. So, if you simply want to go off of total #s, fine. Just know that they are hollow. And Brunell....he is a fossil. He was horrible in 03 and 04. He had a nice 5 or 6 game run last season in the middle of the year before returning to form at the end of the season. Oh, and what a coincedence, he has looked downright dreadful in each preseason game.....you make the call.

RB:
1. NYG
2. Wash
3. Dallas
4. Philly

This position is tricky. I base my rankings off of Tiki being close to what he was last year, but we all know how quickly old RBs fall off post 30 yrs old. Clinton Portis is overrated on this forum, although he is a fine player. His ypc have been flat bad the last two years, considering that he has had a great O-Line to run behind, and a coach who is dedicated to feeding him the ball. He just hasn't been that great, although he is still a very good player. If the Redskins hadn't acquired Duckett (which I think is a great move for this season, although compensation for him was a joke) I would have considered bumping them down a spot. Dallas has a really good thing going with Julius Jones - who has as much potential as anyone this side of Reggie Bush - and a solid excellent all around back in MB3. They are being overlooked this year, and are going to make some people stand up and take notice. Philly is ranked last, but Westbrook is actually the best player at the position in this division when everything is going right. The fact that he is injury prone and maybe a little bit fragile bumps him down, and the lack of a banger to complement him proves the undoing of them for this spot. All in all, probably the closest position from top to bottom in the division. Not a lot of difference between no. 1 and no. 4, and each team could be in any spot by the end of the year.

O-Line:

1. Washington
2. Giants
3. Philly
4. Dallas

Commentary:
Washington is the clear favorite here, and after them the other 3 teams are closely grouped and possibly interchangeable. Dallas has gotten crap for being so bad last year, but that is mainly the media latching onto something and riding it for all its worth. Flozell, at least in pre injury form, is the best LT in the division, and that should count for something, plus steps have been taken to solidify the RT spot, and the interior of the line is shaping up to actually be a strength of the team. Philly could really make a leap up this year, but right now they just have too much youth and inexperience on the inside to put them higher. Thomas and Runyan have both taken hits in their level of play the last two years, and are winding down their careers, imo. Luckily they already have Justice and Andrews waiting in the wings to take their place. The Giants have some nice guys, and thier line could improve this season, but I just think that Petitgout is average at best, and in order to have a really fine OLine, you must have at least a "good" LT.

TE:
1. Dallas
2. NYG
3. Philly
4. Washington

Commentary:
There has been lot of debate about TEs in the last 6 months on this forum. Witten and Shockey have been central to the debate. While it is no contest that Shockey is the better athlete and has more potential, he often seems to zone out and have mental lapses. Witten, meanwhile is such a great technician, so fundamentally sound. He has really refined his game to the point where he has no weaknesses, and is as good in the run game as the pass game. Overall quality I would say is a push between the two, with Shockey being the more explosive player and Witten being the more consistent and fundamentally sound. I give the overall edge to Dallas because of the depth and well roundedness of their TE corps. Fasano is a good looking young guy that could develop into a highly productive player, while Hannam is a solid player on the rise. Meanwhile, Philly and Washington are nearly equal, but I give the Skins the edge by virtue of their depth and versatility. LJ has more potential, and when he is on he is as good a pass catcher as any in the division, but he has been plagued by inconsistency in the past.

WR:
1. Dallas
2. NYG
3. Wash
4. Philly

Commentary:
Dallas is clearly the best here. TO is the best all around WR in the game right now, and Glenn is good enough to be a no. 1 on half the teams in the league. While Crayton is a nice looking youngster on the rise. I give the Giants the nod because I think that Burress is a better player than Moss, by a wide margin and because the consistency that Toomer brings will make a huge difference over the erratic Lloyd. Randle El is almost a non-factor, imo, and will be exposed as such by the end of the season. Philly lags way behind at this position, and it may ultimately end up being their downfall for the year. I laugh at how much stature Santana Moss has built up from one excellent season in the league. He has played 5 or 6 years now, and has had one very nice season, and another good one that was composed of 5 great games, and 11 non-existent ones. And yet everyone wants to make him out as a superstar. Its gonna be funny watching it all fall down.

I know there are gonna be a lot of pi$$ed off people who read this, but I believe that I made a very solid case for my points. Rather than just blast off at your mouths, at least try to respond with equal composure and substantial evidence. I know that's a lot to ask, but sometimes you just have to believe in things even when you know they aren't likely to happen.....

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Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21ST

He was protecting his self

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjsunstein

From what? His leg?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

That leg has had it out for him since day 1.

"We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

I think it's a 2 team race between the Cowboys and the Giants. I don't like Brunell at QB at all and I think McNabb is very overrated. The Giants are more of a sure thing, but if the Cowboys offensive line is improved like I think it should be they'll be the best.

There are a lot of people living in the past in this thread. Here's how I would rank each offensive position in the division by team:

QB:
1. Philly
1a. Dallas
3. NYG
4. Washington

Commentary:
McNabb is a helluva talent, and has done some awesome things in his time. But think about this for a second. Bledsoe is the guy that gets the wrap for throwing awful Ints and costing his team games. Everyone remembers the Seattle game last year when he threw that horrible pass that set up the game winning FG for the Hawks.....but McNabb threw horrible interceptions that cost his team the game in TWO CONSECUTIVE GAMES. First against Washington directly to the LB inside the 10 yard line when they were going in to tie the game, and then right to Roy for a return TD that basically killed their season, and yet Bledsoe is the bad decision maker. Give me a break. As for Manning, he is young and still very much in his developmental stages. BBD brought up the point of how many yards and TDs he had in his first season as a starter....well gues what? He threw more passes than any other QB in the league besides Favre and Collins, two players on bad teams that were always behind. His YPA (which is a much more accurate indicator of success) was 17th in the league behind such stalwarts as McCown, Dilfer and on par with (you guessed it) Brunell and Aaron Brooks. He was also 23rd in passer rating and had a horrid comp %. And you don't want to get started on more intricate and in-depth stats like KC Joyner. So, if you simply want to go off of total #s, fine. Just know that they are hollow. And Brunell....he is a fossil. He was horrible in 03 and 04. He had a nice 5 or 6 game run last season in the middle of the year before returning to form at the end of the season. Oh, and what a coincedence, he has looked downright dreadful in each preseason game.....you make the call.

RB:
1. NYG
2. Wash
3. Dallas
4. Philly

This position is tricky. I base my rankings off of Tiki being close to what he was last year, but we all know how quickly old RBs fall off post 30 yrs old. Clinton Portis is overrated on this forum, although he is a fine player. His ypc have been flat bad the last two years, considering that he has had a great O-Line to run behind, and a coach who is dedicated to feeding him the ball. He just hasn't been that great, although he is still a very good player. If the Redskins hadn't acquired Duckett (which I think is a great move for this season, although compensation for him was a joke) I would have considered bumping them down a spot. Dallas has a really good thing going with Julius Jones - who has as much potential as anyone this side of Reggie Bush - and a solid excellent all around back in MB3. They are being overlooked this year, and are going to make some people stand up and take notice. Philly is ranked last, but Westbrook is actually the best player at the position in this division when everything is going right. The fact that he is injury prone and maybe a little bit fragile bumps him down, and the lack of a banger to complement him proves the undoing of them for this spot. All in all, probably the closest position from top to bottom in the division. Not a lot of difference between no. 1 and no. 4, and each team could be in any spot by the end of the year.

O-Line:

1. Washington
2. Giants
3. Philly
4. Dallas

Commentary:
Washington is the clear favorite here, and after them the other 3 teams are closely grouped and possibly interchangeable. Dallas has gotten crap for being so bad last year, but that is mainly the media latching onto something and riding it for all its worth. Flozell, at least in pre injury form, is the best LT in the division, and that should count for something, plus steps have been taken to solidify the RT spot, and the interior of the line is shaping up to actually be a strength of the team. Philly could really make a leap up this year, but right now they just have too much youth and inexperience on the inside to put them higher. Thomas and Runyan have both taken hits in their level of play the last two years, and are winding down their careers, imo. Luckily they already have Justice and Andrews waiting in the wings to take their place. The Giants have some nice guys, and thier line could improve this season, but I just think that Petitgout is average at best, and in order to have a really fine OLine, you must have at least a "good" LT.

TE:
1. Dallas
2. NYG
3. Philly
4. Washington

Commentary:
There has been lot of debate about TEs in the last 6 months on this forum. Witten and Shockey have been central to the debate. While it is no contest that Shockey is the better athlete and has more potential, he often seems to zone out and have mental lapses. Witten, meanwhile is such a great technician, so fundamentally sound. He has really refined his game to the point where he has no weaknesses, and is as good in the run game as the pass game. Overall quality I would say is a push between the two, with Shockey being the more explosive player and Witten being the more consistent and fundamentally sound. I give the overall edge to Dallas because of the depth and well roundedness of their TE corps. Fasano is a good looking young guy that could develop into a highly productive player, while Hannam is a solid player on the rise. Meanwhile, Philly and Washington are nearly equal, but I give the Skins the edge by virtue of their depth and versatility. LJ has more potential, and when he is on he is as good a pass catcher as any in the division, but he has been plagued by inconsistency in the past.

WR:
1. Dallas
2. NYG
3. Wash
4. Philly

Commentary:
Dallas is clearly the best here. TO is the best all around WR in the game right now, and Glenn is good enough to be a no. 1 on half the teams in the league. While Crayton is a nice looking youngster on the rise. I give the Giants the nod because I think that Burress is a better player than Moss, by a wide margin and because the consistency that Toomer brings will make a huge difference over the erratic Lloyd. Randle El is almost a non-factor, imo, and will be exposed as such by the end of the season. Philly lags way behind at this position, and it may ultimately end up being their downfall for the year. I laugh at how much stature Santana Moss has built up from one excellent season in the league. He has played 5 or 6 years now, and has had one very nice season, and another good one that was composed of 5 great games, and 11 non-existent ones. And yet everyone wants to make him out as a superstar. Its gonna be funny watching it all fall down.

I know there are gonna be a lot of pi$$ed off people who read this, but I believe that I made a very solid case for my points. Rather than just blast off at your mouths, at least try to respond with equal composure and substantial evidence. I know that's a lot to ask, but sometimes you just have to believe in things even when you know they aren't likely to happen.....

As always youve provided great commentary. Its hard to argue with a well thought out analysis like the one you provided. Im pretty much in agreement with almost all of it. The qb thing can be debated for months, we'll just have to agree to disagree there. Unlike McNabb, Bledsoe, and Brunell who have already established themselves and are either at their peak already or in decline, Manning is on the rise so its hard to project what exactly is gonna happen with him. I agree with everything youve said about McNabb and Brunell and Bledsoe, I feel the exact same way. I also feel that Bledsoe is the most accurate deepball qb in the league...and I stand by that statement. But in terms of Manning, we're just gonna have to disagree there. I think this year he establishes himself, its hard to prove it with past stats when youre talking about a developing qb, so I can't back it up with factual information, but thats still how I feel.

Everything else is spot on. Im gonna rank the Eagles oline ahead of the Giants, and behind the Redskins. McKenzie has not been as good at RT as we wouldve hoped, and Luke Petitgout is Luke Petitgout. Philly has Runyen who still has some in the tank, an up and coming LT in Justice, Shawn Andrews whos set to have a big year, and better overall depth imo.

Dallas has better depth at TE so they have the best there. I believe Shockey is better than Witten, and I also agree with your assessment on them. Witten is more consistent, but I would take Shockey's game changing ability over Witten. Its not talked about much, but many in NY constantly complain about Coughlin's playbook. Its horrible, I won't get into specifics, but its much too vertical and hinders Manning and Shockey alot by restricting some of their strengths. Shockey is not being used properly by Coughlin.

In terms of WR, Dallas has the best WR in Owens. In terms of WR set however, I gotta give it to the Giants. Dallas has Owens and Glenn. But outside those 2, there is a lack of depth. Youve talked about it much in the Dallas boards as well about how Parcells is looking for a 3rd WR. The Giants have Plax, Toomer (who is still ok, not as good as before, but still solid), and Sinorice and Carter at slot. I know Sinorice and Carter aren't Pro Bowlers, but they are still much better than what Dallas has.

Overall I like your evaluation, its pretty spot on. We're both in agreement that Washington is vastly overrated. We both agree that Dallas has the better TE set. We disagree slightly on oline, and we disagree on qb and WR set. But thats not unusual, after all, we are fans of division rivals, so we aren't going to agree on everything.

Redskins have the best offensive line and the best running back in Clinton Portis. Santana Moss is an elite wide receiver and Brunell can get the job done behind center. Also, Chris Cooley is a great option as an H-Back or as a TE. They also have good depth at WR with Antwaan Randel El and Brandon Lloyd filling in the #2 and #3 spots.

The Giants have a great young QB in Eli Manning who is developing into one of the league's elite. Barber, although aging, seems to be hitting the peak of his career and is effective as a runner and receiver. The offensive line is good but they don't match the Redskins. Buress and Toomer are a decent 1-2 punch but Burress can disappear and their is little talent beyond them. Shockey can be great at TE but he has trouble with consistency at times.

Dallas's offensive line is the worst in the division and it will hurt both their running and passing game. The running back by committee approach should work well enough with both Jones and Barber making significant impacts. The WRs are obviously led by Terrell Owens who is the best WR in the game today (on the field). Glenn is a great #2 option but the depth beyond Glenn is adequate at best. Bledsoe is a veteran who is underrated but he does make his fair share of mistakes. Witten is a good TE that is a consistent target for Bledsoe.

The Eagles offence depends on the divisions best quarterback, Donovan McNabb. With him in the game, the Eagles always have a chance to win. The offensive line is solid and generally provides good pass protection although some of the struggles in the running game can be attributed to them. The backfield is quite weak with only Westbrook and Moats. The upside is that Westbrook is an effective utility back and is very good at catching the ball out of the backfield. The biggest weakness of this team is the wide receivers which lack any proven threat beyond newly acquired Donte Stallworth. Reggie Brown will have to step up and become the #1 receiver which is asking a lot of a 2nd year player.

As always youve provided great commentary. Its hard to argue with a well thought out analysis like the one you provided. Im pretty much in agreement with almost all of it. The qb thing can be debated for months, we'll just have to agree to disagree there. Unlike McNabb, Bledsoe, and Brunell who have already established themselves and are either at their peak already or in decline, Manning is on the rise so its hard to project what exactly is gonna happen with him. I agree with everything youve said about McNabb and Brunell and Bledsoe, I feel the exact same way. I also feel that Bledsoe is the most accurate deepball qb in the league...and I stand by that statement. But in terms of Manning, we're just gonna have to disagree there. I think this year he establishes himself, its hard to prove it with past stats when youre talking about a developing qb, so I can't back it up with factual information, but thats still how I feel.

Everything else is spot on. Im gonna rank the Eagles oline ahead of the Giants, and behind the Redskins. McKenzie has not been as good at RT as we wouldve hoped, and Luke Petitgout is Luke Petitgout. Philly has Runyen who still has some in the tank, an up and coming LT in Justice, Shawn Andrews whos set to have a big year, and better overall depth imo.

Dallas has better depth at TE so they have the best there. I believe Shockey is better than Witten, and I also agree with your assessment on them. Witten is more consistent, but I would take Shockey's game changing ability over Witten. Its not talked about much, but many in NY constantly complain about Coughlin's playbook. Its horrible, I won't get into specifics, but its much too vertical and hinders Manning and Shockey alot by restricting some of their strengths. Shockey is not being used properly by Coughlin.

In terms of WR, Dallas has the best WR in Owens. In terms of WR set however, I gotta give it to the Giants. Dallas has Owens and Glenn. But outside those 2, there is a lack of depth. Youve talked about it much in the Dallas boards as well about how Parcells is looking for a 3rd WR. The Giants have Plax, Toomer (who is still ok, not as good as before, but still solid), and Sinorice and Carter at slot. I know Sinorice and Carter aren't Pro Bowlers, but they are still much better than what Dallas has.

Overall I like your evaluation, its pretty spot on. We're both in agreement that Washington is vastly overrated. We both agree that Dallas has the better TE set. We disagree slightly on oline, and we disagree on qb and WR set. But thats not unusual, after all, we are fans of division rivals, so we aren't going to agree on everything.

Thanks for the props, and I had a feeling you'd know where I'm coming from. I actually think we see eye-to-eye on the TE thing. It's really a pick-your-flavor scenario. Shockey makes some plays that Witten will never be able to make, while Witten is more reliable and better at the technical aspects of the position. I'd say that are pretty close, and while the Cowboys have the better corps, each team has personnel that suit what it does offensively. So we are pretty much in agreement.

The WR issue is the one where I think your homer had the keyboard. I mean, at least as is, it's pretty obvious that TO>>Burress and Glenn>>>Toomer. Unless you have a 3rd WR that is mind-bogglingly good, then that would easily decide the position. But I still feel like you are off base in regard to your assessment of our depth. Patrick Crayton has a chance to be a really good player in this league, and is excellent as a 3rd WR in our offense. Now, if he continues to have injury concerns then that might change things, but he is obviously already a nice player. He torched the combo of Marcus Trufant(whom everyone seems to really love), Kelly Jennings, and Herndon for Seattle in week 1 of the preseason before spraining his ankle. He was a key player for us in the first 6 games last season before he got hurt, and this is just his third year in the league.

As for Carter and Moss.....I'm not sure how your making your assessment. Moss hasn't done anything in preseason to merit that high of regard. Carter (though I admit to not knowing a whole lot about him) isn't much more than a speed merchant up to this point in his career. If you want to talk potential, then I would like to bring up some of our young guys that have been impressing in camp and preseason, but that would be a little premature because we all know that preseason doesn't necessarily mean jack crap. So I can't say that I see your point here. Maybe in a year or two you will be right, but at this point it just doesn't look like the Giants have a lot at this particular position, although they may have a lot of promise.

In regard to Eli, I don't want you to think that I am ripping him. All I was saying is that you have to guard against using totals like you did. They can be very deceptive. That said, I really do like him. I think the comparisons to Peyton are way off, and that he will likely never be the supremely cerebral player that his brother is. However, he does have a moxy to him that Peyton lacks. A certain ability to maintain his composure and persevere. I like him, as a player, quite a bit and I think he will turn out to be great. But for this season, you can't really say much due to the level of uncertainty regarding his progress. I think he will take a big step, and that he has a chance to be great. But right now I only rank him at no. 3 because Brunell is D-U-N, done. That said, I hope he turns out to be a bust. The last thing we need is another great QB in our division. :twisted:

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Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21ST

He was protecting his self

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjsunstein

From what? His leg?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

That leg has had it out for him since day 1.

"We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

Redskins have the best offensive line and the best running back in Clinton Portis. Santana Moss is an elite wide receiver and Brunell can get the job done behind center. Also, Chris Cooley is a great option as an H-Back or as a TE. They also have good depth at WR with Antwaan Randel El and Brandon Lloyd filling in the #2 and #3 spots.

The Giants have a great young QB in Eli Manning who is developing into one of the league's elite. Barber, although aging, seems to be hitting the peak of his career and is effective as a runner and receiver. The offensive line is good but they don't match the Redskins. Buress and Toomer are a decent 1-2 punch but Burress can disappear and their is little talent beyond them. Shockey can be great at TE but he has trouble with consistency at times.

Dallas's offensive line is the worst in the division and it will hurt both their running and passing game. The running back by committee approach should work well enough with both Jones and Barber making significant impacts. The WRs are obviously led by Terrell Owens who is the best WR in the game today (on the field). Glenn is a great #2 option but the depth beyond Glenn is adequate at best. Bledsoe is a veteran who is underrated but he does make his fair share of mistakes. Witten is a good TE that is a consistent target for Bledsoe.

The Eagles offence depends on the divisions best quarterback, Donovan McNabb. With him in the game, the Eagles always have a chance to win. The offensive line is solid and generally provides good pass protection although some of the struggles in the running game can be attributed to them. The backfield is quite weak with only Westbrook and Moats. The upside is that Westbrook is an effective utility back and is very good at catching the ball out of the backfield. The biggest weakness of this team is the wide receivers which lack any proven threat beyond newly acquired Donte Stallworth. Reggie Brown will have to step up and become the #1 receiver which is asking a lot of a 2nd year player.

I hate to say this to someone whom I regard as a generally astute poster, but that post sounds like you read "Cliff Notes: NFC East Football 2006" or something. For example, you said this :

Quote:

Redskins have the best offensive line and the best running back in Clinton Portis

And yet, for each of the last two years, Tiki Barber has dominated him in terms of yardage and ypc. AND the Redskins pretty clearly have a better O line than the G-men do. So if they have both the best runner and the best blockers, then why don't they play the best? Bears mentioning, you would think, and yet people just run their mouths off and say that Portis is the best without giving it a second thought.

Next you said:

Quote:

Dallas's offensive line is the worst in the division and it will hurt both their running and passing game.....Bledsoe is a veteran who is underrated but he does make his fair share of mistakes.

Each of these statements are considered the "book" on the O Line and Bledsoe, respectively. Yet you (and everyone else who peddles these two philosophies) ignore some extremely relevant facts. First, of this "worst line" that ended the season by giving up 38 sacks in 10 games highlighted by a staggering 8 sacks against the Skins weak pass rush, there will be 4 new starters from the line that started those 10 games, as well as the 5th starter being a completely different player after struggling from back problems that developed prior to last season. So I don't know exactly how that means that we're the "worst line in the division" when you, me, Parcells and the rest of the NFL has no idea exactly how good we'll be. All I know is we will be substantially improved from a line that was devastated by injury throughout the season. Secondly, you say Bledsoe "makes his fair share of mistakes", implying that he is a bad decision maker who often "goes off the reservation" with frequency. Well, I don't know how you form your opinion on the matter, but as a fan that watched nearly every offensive play last year, most of them multiple times, I can say that Bledsoe's decision making was one of his biggest assets. Everyone jumps to mention the Seahawks game when he threw the game ending Int and everything, but they forget the Charger, 49ers, NYG, Panther, Eagles and Chiefs games when he took the offense down the field late in the 4th quarter or overtime for the winning scores. Also, a certain professional statistician who has broken down every play of every game and categorized and classified every QB decision names Bledsoe as the 3rd best decision maker in the league last year.

Of course, all these facts do not fit into the "generally held consensus" that has formed out of media reports, political cow-towing and hyperbole machine that surround the sport, so they obviously cannot be true. Of course, this time last year the Eagles were the clear favorites in the NFC, the Patriots were the hands down best team in the league, Culpepper was set for a monster season, the Seahawks couldn't put it all together, the Bears were floundering in incompetence and the Redskins were a lock to send their top 5 pick to the Broncos for Jason Campbell..... good thing that won't happen this season.

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Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21ST

He was protecting his self

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjsunstein

From what? His leg?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

That leg has had it out for him since day 1.

"We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

The offensive line is solid and generally provides good pass protection although some of the struggles in the running game can be attributed to them. The backfield is quite weak with only Westbrook and Moats.

I dont like this argument for three reasons.

One, people need to remember what happened at the end of last year. Hank Fraley is not a good run blocker, at all. When he went on IR, they put in Jamaal Jackson. He is an absolute mauler. The first game Jackson was in the Eagles ran for over 150 yards against the Cowboys.

Two, the bad running game last year was hardly the RBs fault, although some of the blame goes to them. It pains me to say it, but once Westbrook got his big extension he ran a lot harder. Anyways, back to not blaming the RBs. Last years offensive line was horrible at run blocking. Tra Thomas is a premier pass blocking LT. He's an average run blocker. Artis Hicks is a good pass blocking guard, and he's a below average run blocker. Hank Fraley is just an extremely smart G/C who is an above average pass blocker but below average run blocker. Again, referring to the Dallas game. That game, Todd Herremans was the LT. Adrien Clarke the LG. JJax the C. They're all run blockers. They dominated Dallas that entire game. This year Thomas is back at LT but Herremans is at LG and Jackson is the full time center. The run blocking will be much better, and if Westbrook wasnt injury prone he'd easily be a 1000 yard rusher.

Third, right now Buckhalter is healthy. Thomas Tapeh was a 5th rounder going into his 3rd year who is a RB/FB. Jason Davis was used as a runner in college. The Eagles have 'big backs.'

jus had to point out and say Thanks and preciate it to everyone who provided well thought out answers and not just rambling on about how their favorite team is the best...

although I agree most arent respecting the ceiling of julius jones in a full season, along with a great backup, and on top of that, which rb's wouldnt prosper from having TO on the field, TO is just a large enough of a target and focus to make an offense number one

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

Redskins have the best offensive line and the best running back in Clinton Portis. Santana Moss is an elite wide receiver and Brunell can get the job done behind center. Also, Chris Cooley is a great option as an H-Back or as a TE. They also have good depth at WR with Antwaan Randel El and Brandon Lloyd filling in the #2 and #3 spots.

The Giants have a great young QB in Eli Manning who is developing into one of the league's elite. Barber, although aging, seems to be hitting the peak of his career and is effective as a runner and receiver. The offensive line is good but they don't match the Redskins. Buress and Toomer are a decent 1-2 punch but Burress can disappear and their is little talent beyond them. Shockey can be great at TE but he has trouble with consistency at times.

Dallas's offensive line is the worst in the division and it will hurt both their running and passing game. The running back by committee approach should work well enough with both Jones and Barber making significant impacts. The WRs are obviously led by Terrell Owens who is the best WR in the game today (on the field). Glenn is a great #2 option but the depth beyond Glenn is adequate at best. Bledsoe is a veteran who is underrated but he does make his fair share of mistakes. Witten is a good TE that is a consistent target for Bledsoe.

The Eagles offence depends on the divisions best quarterback, Donovan McNabb. With him in the game, the Eagles always have a chance to win. The offensive line is solid and generally provides good pass protection although some of the struggles in the running game can be attributed to them. The backfield is quite weak with only Westbrook and Moats. The upside is that Westbrook is an effective utility back and is very good at catching the ball out of the backfield. The biggest weakness of this team is the wide receivers which lack any proven threat beyond newly acquired Donte Stallworth. Reggie Brown will have to step up and become the #1 receiver which is asking a lot of a 2nd year player.

I hate to say this to someone whom I regard as a generally astute poster, but that post sounds like you read "Cliff Notes: NFC East Football 2006" or something. For example, you said this :

Quote:

Redskins have the best offensive line and the best running back in Clinton Portis

And yet, for each of the last two years, Tiki Barber has dominated him in terms of yardage and ypc. AND the Redskins pretty clearly have a better O line than the G-men do. So if they have both the best runner and the best blockers, then why don't they play the best? Bears mentioning, you would think, and yet people just run their mouths off and say that Portis is the best without giving it a second thought.

Next you said:

Quote:

Dallas's offensive line is the worst in the division and it will hurt both their running and passing game.....Bledsoe is a veteran who is underrated but he does make his fair share of mistakes.

Each of these statements are considered the "book" on the O Line and Bledsoe, respectively. Yet you (and everyone else who peddles these two philosophies) ignore some extremely relevant facts. First, of this "worst line" that ended the season by giving up 38 sacks in 10 games highlighted by a staggering 8 sacks against the Skins weak pass rush, there will be 4 new starters from the line that started those 10 games, as well as the 5th starter being a completely different player after struggling from back problems that developed prior to last season. So I don't know exactly how that means that we're the "worst line in the division" when you, me, Parcells and the rest of the NFL has no idea exactly how good we'll be. All I know is we will be substantially improved from a line that was devastated by injury throughout the season. Secondly, you say Bledsoe "makes his fair share of mistakes", implying that he is a bad decision maker who often "goes off the reservation" with frequency. Well, I don't know how you form your opinion on the matter, but as a fan that watched nearly every offensive play last year, most of them multiple times, I can say that Bledsoe's decision making was one of his biggest assets. Everyone jumps to mention the Seahawks game when he threw the game ending Int and everything, but they forget the Charger, 49ers, NYG, Panther, Eagles and Chiefs games when he took the offense down the field late in the 4th quarter or overtime for the winning scores. Also, a certain professional statistician who has broken down every play of every game and categorized and classified every QB decision names Bledsoe as the 3rd best decision maker in the league last year.

Of course, all these facts do not fit into the "generally held consensus" that has formed out of media reports, political cow-towing and hyperbole machine that surround the sport, so they obviously cannot be true. Of course, this time last year the Eagles were the clear favorites in the NFC, the Patriots were the hands down best team in the league, Culpepper was set for a monster season, the Seahawks couldn't put it all together, the Bears were floundering in incompetence and the Redskins were a lock to send their top 5 pick to the Broncos for Jason Campbell..... good thing that won't happen this season.

Most of your arguments are based off stats from years past. I'm looking ahead to this year. I personally feel that Portis is a better back than Barber. Both are great backs but I think Portis has the edge at this point in their careers. This opinion is simply based on watching both play and seeing how much they help their teams. Barber helps out more in the passing game but I think it's pretty special what Portis can accomplish along the ground. Again, I'm of the opinion that stats rarely tell the whole story and simply comparing YPC, total yards, etc. is pointless.

As far as Dallas' line goes, it's obviously too early to tell for sure if they're going to be the worst but I wouldn't hesitate in saying that they are the biggest question mark in the division. What line would you argue has more questions than the Cowboys?

As far as Bledsoe goes, I've just noticed that he can be erratic at times. On one drive he'll look like the best QB in the league orchaestrating a picture perfect drive downfield resulting in 6 points. Then on the next drive he'll look like a rookie who doesn't grasp the playbook. I think he's extremely talented he just seems to lack focus at times. Maybe I'm missing something, but he's obviously made his fair share of mistakes if he threw 17 INTs last season.

The offensive line is solid and generally provides good pass protection although some of the struggles in the running game can be attributed to them. The backfield is quite weak with only Westbrook and Moats.

I dont like this argument for three reasons.

One, people need to remember what happened at the end of last year. Hank Fraley is not a good run blocker, at all. When he went on IR, they put in Jamaal Jackson. He is an absolute mauler. The first game Jackson was in the Eagles ran for over 150 yards against the Cowboys.

Two, the bad running game last year was hardly the RBs fault, although some of the blame goes to them. It pains me to say it, but once Westbrook got his big extension he ran a lot harder. Anyways, back to not blaming the RBs. Last years offensive line was horrible at run blocking. Tra Thomas is a premier pass blocking LT. He's an average run blocker. Artis Hicks is a good pass blocking guard, and he's a below average run blocker. Hank Fraley is just an extremely smart G/C who is an above average pass blocker but below average run blocker. Again, referring to the Dallas game. That game, Todd Herremans was the LT. Adrien Clarke the LG. JJax the C. They're all run blockers. They dominated Dallas that entire game. This year Thomas is back at LT but Herremans is at LG and Jackson is the full time center. The run blocking will be much better, and if Westbrook wasnt injury prone he'd easily be a 1000 yard rusher.

Third, right now Buckhalter is healthy. Thomas Tapeh was a 5th rounder going into his 3rd year who is a RB/FB. Jason Davis was used as a runner in college. The Eagles have 'big backs.'

The Eagles' biggest problem with their running game last season was obviously the fact that they didn't run the football enough. Reid simply wouldn't give the ball to the RBs enough to create an effective running game.

Like I said, neither Moats or Westbrook are even in the same league in terms of running as Portis, Barber, or even the Jones/Barber combo in Dallas. The RBs in Philadelphia are clearly a big step below anybody else in the division.

i wouldnt argue with portis over tiki, some are going off last year, some are going with age and where their heading in their career....portis is so young its scary for what he's done and how he's added on weight with keeping lightning speed...he is capable of a 1,700 yd rushing and 500 yd passing year, never know when it could happen but he hasnt even peaked yet, Tiki had a great year last year, but he's one year older and so are his legs, as far as being the workhorse he was last year its hard to see him doing that again, but the chances of a career year anytime in the future has got to be portis

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Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

i don't really know enough about any of these teams to have an opinion, but i more wanted to give some props to DMW, Moses, bigblue and Dillen for actually reading each other's arguments and responding point by point to flaws (real or not) that people pointed out. i like reading this kind of commentary on divisions i don't know much about.

The offensive line is solid and generally provides good pass protection although some of the struggles in the running game can be attributed to them. The backfield is quite weak with only Westbrook and Moats.

I dont like this argument for three reasons.

One, people need to remember what happened at the end of last year. Hank Fraley is not a good run blocker, at all. When he went on IR, they put in Jamaal Jackson. He is an absolute mauler. The first game Jackson was in the Eagles ran for over 150 yards against the Cowboys.

Two, the bad running game last year was hardly the RBs fault, although some of the blame goes to them. It pains me to say it, but once Westbrook got his big extension he ran a lot harder. Anyways, back to not blaming the RBs. Last years offensive line was horrible at run blocking. Tra Thomas is a premier pass blocking LT. He's an average run blocker. Artis Hicks is a good pass blocking guard, and he's a below average run blocker. Hank Fraley is just an extremely smart G/C who is an above average pass blocker but below average run blocker. Again, referring to the Dallas game. That game, Todd Herremans was the LT. Adrien Clarke the LG. JJax the C. They're all run blockers. They dominated Dallas that entire game. This year Thomas is back at LT but Herremans is at LG and Jackson is the full time center. The run blocking will be much better, and if Westbrook wasnt injury prone he'd easily be a 1000 yard rusher.

Third, right now Buckhalter is healthy. Thomas Tapeh was a 5th rounder going into his 3rd year who is a RB/FB. Jason Davis was used as a runner in college. The Eagles have 'big backs.'

The Eagles' biggest problem with their running game last season was obviously the fact that they didn't run the football enough. Reid simply wouldn't give the ball to the RBs enough to create an effective running game.

Like I said, neither Moats or Westbrook are even in the same league in terms of running as Portis, Barber, or even the Jones/Barber combo in Dallas. The RBs in Philadelphia are clearly a big step below anybody else in the division.

Well you can't really blame them for not calling a lot of running plays because they weren't working. Like Dillen already said our run blocking didn't pick up until midway through the season. Westbrook got dominated when he tried to run against teams with legitimate run defenses in the beginning of the season. Our run game just wasn't working, and it was frustrating every time they tried to run the ball. McNabb was talented enough to accomplish what the running game could not so he got to throw the ball when conventional wisdom would say to run.

As far as the Eagles RB's relating to the Cowboys, I would take Westbrook over Jones in a heartbeat. While he hasn't accomplished as much on the ground he isn't bad at rushing, and is incomparably better at receiving than Jones is. Barber is better than Moats. I'd say the Cowboys and the Eagles are pretty close at RB while either could be better.

The offensive line is solid and generally provides good pass protection although some of the struggles in the running game can be attributed to them. The backfield is quite weak with only Westbrook and Moats.

I dont like this argument for three reasons.

One, people need to remember what happened at the end of last year. Hank Fraley is not a good run blocker, at all. When he went on IR, they put in Jamaal Jackson. He is an absolute mauler. The first game Jackson was in the Eagles ran for over 150 yards against the Cowboys.

Two, the bad running game last year was hardly the RBs fault, although some of the blame goes to them. It pains me to say it, but once Westbrook got his big extension he ran a lot harder. Anyways, back to not blaming the RBs. Last years offensive line was horrible at run blocking. Tra Thomas is a premier pass blocking LT. He's an average run blocker. Artis Hicks is a good pass blocking guard, and he's a below average run blocker. Hank Fraley is just an extremely smart G/C who is an above average pass blocker but below average run blocker. Again, referring to the Dallas game. That game, Todd Herremans was the LT. Adrien Clarke the LG. JJax the C. They're all run blockers. They dominated Dallas that entire game. This year Thomas is back at LT but Herremans is at LG and Jackson is the full time center. The run blocking will be much better, and if Westbrook wasnt injury prone he'd easily be a 1000 yard rusher.

Third, right now Buckhalter is healthy. Thomas Tapeh was a 5th rounder going into his 3rd year who is a RB/FB. Jason Davis was used as a runner in college. The Eagles have 'big backs.'

The Eagles' biggest problem with their running game last season was obviously the fact that they didn't run the football enough. Reid simply wouldn't give the ball to the RBs enough to create an effective running game.

Like I said, neither Moats or Westbrook are even in the same league in terms of running as Portis, Barber, or even the Jones/Barber combo in Dallas. The RBs in Philadelphia are clearly a big step below anybody else in the division.

Well you can't really blame them for not calling a lot of running plays because they weren't working. Like Dillen already said our run blocking didn't pick up until midway through the season. Westbrook got dominated when he tried to run against teams with legitimate run defenses in the beginning of the season. Our run game just wasn't working, and it was frustrating every time they tried to run the ball. McNabb was talented enough to accomplish what the running game could not so he got to throw the ball when conventional wisdom would say to run.

As far as the Eagles RB's relating to the Cowboys, I would take Westbrook over Jones in a heartbeat. While he hasn't accomplished as much on the ground he isn't bad at rushing, and is incomparably better at receiving than Jones is. Barber is better than Moats. I'd say the Cowboys and the Eagles are pretty close at RB while either could be better.

Westbrook is very unimpressive on running plays from what I've seen and I would take both Jones and Barber over him. Obviously he's more effective in the passing game but that's not going to help the Eagles dismal running attack.

i wouldnt argue with portis over tiki, some are going off last year, some are going with age and where their heading in their career....portis is so young its scary for what he's done and how he's added on weight with keeping lightning speed...he is capable of a 1,700 yd rushing and 500 yd passing year, never know when it could happen but he hasnt even peaked yet, Tiki had a great year last year, but he's one year older and so are his legs, as far as being the workhorse he was last year its hard to see him doing that again, but the chances of a career year anytime in the future has got to be portis

What many fail to realize is that Tiki does not have the normal amount of wear and tear on his body as other backs his age do. Early on in his career, he was never an every down back and it basically wasn't until Ron Dayne was a goner that Tiki was given every down responsibility, which was 5-6 years into his career. Combine that with the fact that he keeps himself in absolutely amazing shape every offseason and you have to be under the impression that he still has at least another 2-3 top notch seasons left in the tank if he can avoid the injury bug.

i wouldnt argue with portis over tiki, some are going off last year, some are going with age and where their heading in their career....portis is so young its scary for what he's done and how he's added on weight with keeping lightning speed...he is capable of a 1,700 yd rushing and 500 yd passing year, never know when it could happen but he hasnt even peaked yet, Tiki had a great year last year, but he's one year older and so are his legs, as far as being the workhorse he was last year its hard to see him doing that again, but the chances of a career year anytime in the future has got to be portis

What many fail to realize is that Tiki does not have the normal amount of wear and tear on his body as other backs his age do. Early on in his career, he was never an every down back and it basically wasn't until Ron Dayne was a goner that Tiki was given every down responsibility, which was 5-6 years into his career. Combine that with the fact that he keeps himself in absolutely amazing shape every offseason and you have to be under the impression that he still has at least another 2-3 top notch seasons left in the tank if he can avoid the injury bug.

I wouldnt doubt he has another 2-3 great years left, maybe more but, hasnt he recently discussed retiring? Some say his heart has been elsewhere and that this may be his last season.

i wouldnt argue with portis over tiki, some are going off last year, some are going with age and where their heading in their career....portis is so young its scary for what he's done and how he's added on weight with keeping lightning speed...he is capable of a 1,700 yd rushing and 500 yd passing year, never know when it could happen but he hasnt even peaked yet, Tiki had a great year last year, but he's one year older and so are his legs, as far as being the workhorse he was last year its hard to see him doing that again, but the chances of a career year anytime in the future has got to be portis

What many fail to realize is that Tiki does not have the normal amount of wear and tear on his body as other backs his age do. Early on in his career, he was never an every down back and it basically wasn't until Ron Dayne was a goner that Tiki was given every down responsibility, which was 5-6 years into his career. Combine that with the fact that he keeps himself in absolutely amazing shape every offseason and you have to be under the impression that he still has at least another 2-3 top notch seasons left in the tank if he can avoid the injury bug.

I wouldnt doubt he has another 2-3 great years left, maybe more but, hasnt he recently discussed retiring? Some say his heart has been elsewhere and that this may be his last season.

He has. I fear him retiring at the top of his game much more than I do his body breaking down like Curtis Martin. I think Tiki has two great years left. Hopefully he stays for 2007. I think he will then call it quits after that.

Most of your arguments are based off stats from years past. I'm looking ahead to this year. I personally feel that Portis is a better back than Barber. Both are great backs but I think Portis has the edge at this point in their careers. This opinion is simply based on watching both play and seeing how much they help their teams. Barber helps out more in the passing game but I think it's pretty special what Portis can accomplish along the ground. Again, I'm of the opinion that stats rarely tell the whole story and simply comparing YPC, total yards, etc. is pointless.

So someone brings cold hard facts to the table regarding the way things have been, and somehow a "gut feeling" overrules that? Don't get me wrong, because I am not one of those guys that hides behind numbers and touts stats as being the be-all and end-all of arguments. However, there are times when stats do tell the whole story. Barber didn't just narrowly edge out Portis the last two years, he DESTROYED him. Portis has not been an efficient runner since he left Denver. There have only been one or two games that I've watched Portis and said "wow, he looks unstoppable right now". But when he was in Denver, that's how he looked almost every single game. He was a monster. Tiki, on the other hand, has looked that way in several games. He has been the life blood of that team for two straight years. There is just no way to argue that Portis has been a better back than Barber in recent times, and if he hasn't been better in recent times, then you have to come up with a solid argument as to why it will be different this season. You, nor anyone else with your opinion, has come up with a satisfactory answer to this question. So, imo, the burden of proof lies upon you.

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As far as Dallas' line goes, it's obviously too early to tell for sure if they're going to be the worst but I wouldn't hesitate in saying that they are the biggest question mark in the division. What line would you argue has more questions than the Cowboys?

Much better. They definitely have the most question marks, and I can live with that. However, the Eagles also have three new starters on the interior, and their two Tackles are coming back from season ending injuries, so that is a question laden team as well. But I can deal much easier with being labeled as a "question filled" line as opposed to the "worst" one. There is a lot of potential there for us to be successful, and we do have two Pro Bowl lineman along with probably the most coveted young guard from FA. So there is some pieces that offer promise, along with a young 7th round tackle that Parcells has positively gushed about.

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As far as Bledsoe goes, I've just noticed that he can be erratic at times. On one drive he'll look like the best QB in the league orchaestrating a picture perfect drive downfield resulting in 6 points. Then on the next drive he'll look like a rookie who doesn't grasp the playbook. I think he's extremely talented he just seems to lack focus at times. Maybe I'm missing something, but he's obviously made his fair share of mistakes if he threw 17 INTs last season.

So....Tom Brady threw 14. Does that qualify him for that same moniker? I agree that there have been times when Bledsoe has looked a little shaky. But I strongly disagree with the rap that he has gotten around the league and specifically on this forum. I would take him right now before all but about 8 or 9 QBs in this league; guys that get much more respect than Bledsoe. I also disagree with your characterization. Every QB in the league struggles at times. Even Peyton. Even Brady. But Bledsoe, at least last year, has never looked as bad as you just described him. Every once in a great while he will "go off the reservation" , as Parcells describes it, but his game is very refined. Another thing is that he has had to work behind a really bad offensive line for the last 4 consecutive years. Something that is particularly problematic for him, though every QB would struggle with it.

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Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21ST

He was protecting his self

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Originally Posted by tjsunstein

From what? His leg?

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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

That leg has had it out for him since day 1.

"We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

i don't really know enough about any of these teams to have an opinion, but i more wanted to give some props to DMW, Moses, bigblue and Dillen for actually reading each other's arguments and responding point by point to flaws (real or not) that people pointed out. i like reading this kind of commentary on divisions i don't know much about.

It really is nice to see a thread like this. I expect nothing less from bigblue. You're my boy blue!

I voted Cowboys (shudder) as they have a QB who's been to a couple of SBs, a young promising run game, an under-rated TE, and excellent WRs. I like their line and expect them to do very well once the season starts.

Most of your arguments are based off stats from years past. I'm looking ahead to this year. I personally feel that Portis is a better back than Barber. Both are great backs but I think Portis has the edge at this point in their careers. This opinion is simply based on watching both play and seeing how much they help their teams. Barber helps out more in the passing game but I think it's pretty special what Portis can accomplish along the ground. Again, I'm of the opinion that stats rarely tell the whole story and simply comparing YPC, total yards, etc. is pointless.

So someone brings cold hard facts to the table regarding the way things have been, and somehow a "gut feeling" overrules that? Don't get me wrong, because I am not one of those guys that hides behind numbers and touts stats as being the be-all and end-all of arguments. However, there are times when stats do tell the whole story. Barber didn't just narrowly edge out Portis the last two years, he DESTROYED him. Portis has not been an efficient runner since he left Denver. There have only been one or two games that I've watched Portis and said "wow, he looks unstoppable right now". But when he was in Denver, that's how he looked almost every single game. He was a monster. Tiki, on the other hand, has looked that way in several games. He has been the life blood of that team for two straight years. There is just no way to argue that Portis has been a better back than Barber in recent times, and if he hasn't been better in recent times, then you have to come up with a solid argument as to why it will be different this season. You, nor anyone else with your opinion, has come up with a satisfactory answer to this question. So, imo, the burden of proof lies upon you.

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As far as Dallas' line goes, it's obviously too early to tell for sure if they're going to be the worst but I wouldn't hesitate in saying that they are the biggest question mark in the division. What line would you argue has more questions than the Cowboys?

Much better. They definitely have the most question marks, and I can live with that. However, the Eagles also have three new starters on the interior, and their two Tackles are coming back from season ending injuries, so that is a question laden team as well. But I can deal much easier with being labeled as a "question filled" line as opposed to the "worst" one. There is a lot of potential there for us to be successful, and we do have two Pro Bowl lineman along with probably the most coveted young guard from FA. So there is some pieces that offer promise, along with a young 7th round tackle that Parcells has positively gushed about.

Quote:

As far as Bledsoe goes, I've just noticed that he can be erratic at times. On one drive he'll look like the best QB in the league orchaestrating a picture perfect drive downfield resulting in 6 points. Then on the next drive he'll look like a rookie who doesn't grasp the playbook. I think he's extremely talented he just seems to lack focus at times. Maybe I'm missing something, but he's obviously made his fair share of mistakes if he threw 17 INTs last season.

So....Tom Brady threw 14. Does that qualify him for that same moniker? I agree that there have been times when Bledsoe has looked a little shaky. But I strongly disagree with the rap that he has gotten around the league and specifically on this forum. I would take him right now before all but about 8 or 9 QBs in this league; guys that get much more respect than Bledsoe. I also disagree with your characterization. Every QB in the league struggles at times. Even Peyton. Even Brady. But Bledsoe, at least last year, has never looked as bad as you just described him. Every once in a great while he will "go off the reservation" , as Parcells describes it, but his game is very refined. Another thing is that he has had to work behind a really bad offensive line for the last 4 consecutive years. Something that is particularly problematic for him, though every QB would struggle with it.

In terms of the Portis Vs. Barber debate, it's not a "gut feeling" I'm going on. It's simply who I think is the better overall back. I've watched them both quite a bit and I think Portis is the better runner. He's tough as nails and is an absolute workhorse who can pound the ball while also having the speed and moves to take it the distance on any play. Barber is good too and I like his vision but I don't think he's as good as Portis overall.

As far as Bledsoe goes, I've just noticed a lot of inconsistency in him. I think it's mostly because his highest level of play is up there with the best in the league but his basement is pretty terrible.