For probably as long as it has existed, alimony has been a man vs. woman thing. Men get ordered to pay, women get alimony and men get bitter. But as women have become more economically powerful, the game has changed.

In 2012, a new law came into effect in Massachusetts that abolished permanent alimony and set up a formula for future payments. Some men there had been paying for decades to women to whom they’d only been married very briefly. While Massachusetts is the front runner, several states, especially Florida, are rethinking the way alimony is awarded.

Should men still have to pay alimony when women can now be educated and make (almost) as much as men? What about women who live with another guy but still take alimony? What do women who pay alimony think? And if we abolish alimony, how do older women without job skills get by?

In this week’s TIME, we look at the wave of alimony reform sweeping across the U.S. and the surprising people who are helping to effect that change: women. To do this, we had to interview a lot of divorced couples. As you can imagine, many of them were a little taken aback to find themselves talking to the nation’s preeminent newsweekly about their ex-spouses. (Angelina Jolie isn’t the only brave person in the news this week!)

Click here to read the full story on alimony, available exclusively for TIME subscribers.

Not a subscriber? Click hereto subscribe or purchase a digital access pass.

What do you think? Should permanent alimony be eradicated? Or is that unfair to women who stayed home to raise the kids? Feel free to weigh in with comments below.

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alimony is a death sentence .No one should have to pay for someone they are no longer married to for the rest of there life. Alot of women have raised children and worked also , so do not use your children as an excuse to get something that you do not deserve. And really how much of that money actual goes to the children. You are a slave for the rest of your life.

@BeverlyShrove wanna get married? haha just kidding. I feel stuck in my dead marriage because I am going to have pay through the nose. I am beyond depressed and have no idea what to do. Its the worst thing I've ever gone through.

Femifascists are now heavily pushing girlfriend-alimony !! that is that after 2 years of relationship, a girl will automatically get entiteled to permanent allimony by the man ( and yes : only women ofc, never men ... because 'equality', ya know ... )

Men have to educate each other way more about the predatory laws against men, especially concerning marriage, custody, alimony, etc.p.p.p

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alimonys are getting rarer and rarer as time flows by. But if a divorce is going to happen, that person should always hire the best lawyer they can in order for them to get what is owed to them. The lawyers at rosenbergfirm.com are exellent at cases having to do with alimony. If a divorce is inevitable, then the best thing to have is one of these lawyers by your side.

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I am all for alimony reform. Women (almost always) need to get off their lazy duffs and get a job. There is NO reason anyone should expect and get half of a spouse's penion/401k or paycheck. There are many women who think they are entitled to this money because they stayed home and popped out kids. k, kids are grown up and guess what? They have JOBS! A husband says "go get a job" "help out a little". Nope wife stays home then he leaves her for whatever reason now all the sudden she deserves half of what he gets up and works for everyday. NO WAY!! This archaic alimony needs to stop NOW. Why does a husband have to live in poverty and works his butt off while his wife sits on her ass all day collecting HIS paycheck. I have never been through this but have friends who get screwed simply because they fell out of love, met someone else, whatever. The reason does not matter, most women are spiteful and will drag and ex thru the ringer. I am a women and I would never expect or ask for my husbands 401k/pension etc. Ladies, quit giving us a bad name: GET OFF YOUR LAZY DUFF AND GET A JOB, GET AN EDUCATION. STOP LIVING OFF OF AN EX.

Please read and sign my petition below, a MOST EGREGIOUS alimony horror story. My now deceased husband, while diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, Glioblastoma Multiforme IV, was cruelly and inhumanely treated by Judge Andrea Carter, Middlesex County, and Defendant, ex-wife, a South Brunswick, NJ second grade school teacher.They attacked him like lion's prey until there was no life left in him. Please sign the petition and help me get “Justice for James.” Thanks.

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Karyokeekid, I do have empathy for you after 37 years of marriage. Most people think that all of the stories about the horrors of alimony are the same as your story. But unfortunately, there are lots of stories that do not involve that many years of marriage and many have childless marriages. The courts have effectively ruined many marriages by providing an incentive for divorce and penalizing the person who did not want the divorce. In many cases, men and women have to pay the person who broke up the marriage by having an affair or who abused them. I guess the best advice came from my Mother when I was growing up. She said "always be able to take care of yourself, do not depend on anyone else to support you".. And this advice was back in the 1950's. I can't help but think that women have not been as proactive with that advice in the years since then, even though women have made many advances, there are still many who choose to choose to stay out of the workforce for TOO many years after the children are on their own.

"always be able to take care of yourself, do not depend on anyone else to support you"..

Yeah. Thats why I went to college and graduate school and got an awesome job. Unfortunately my wife is not that kind of person. And so, now, when we divorce I will no longer be able to support myself because half of my income will go to my slavemaster wife.

So, all I'm saying is that being able to take care of yourself is exactly what the court steals from a man when he divorces. So its a dumb sentiment.

Now that my husband of 37 years is leaving for a younger woman I realize that all the sacrifices I made on behalf of my husband and children were wastes of time in light of my future. Luckily after my children were raised I got a career and make enough money to support myself...barely. I wouldn't say I regret the years I spent raising my children because they are fine upstanding citizens that I'm proud of but if I had it to do over I wouldn't. I think I would spend my youth working on myself and my career like my husband did. Now he will be rich the rest of his life and I will be poor the rest of my life. You young people are creating a horrible world and I feel sorry for you and your children's futures.

How about having a little objectivity and see reasonable in expecting the party who benefited from the unpaid domestic labor to compensate her for her contributions over the time of the marriage? She suffered opportunity costs to her detriment and a 50-50 split is VERY fair.

1)These are half the marital assets, most likely, as the majority (all but 8 or so) of states are not community property states.

2) This means that whatever income she was bringing in gets split in half, too. In a majority of U.S. American households, the wife is "working" too (domestic work is work as well, it's just unpaid).

3) You are not valuing domestic work, which she does the majority of, at an estimated 75%.

The battle of the sexes wages on, but men are not at all the disadvantaged lot you claim them to be.

When is it reasonable to expect someone to be accountable for themselves after being married and dependent for any number of years? There is opportunity out there for those who seek it and are not afraid to embark on a new life, new lifestyle. If they are endowed with a permanent income for life, what do you think the chances are that they will take that chance? Very little. The truly protect. They are not fair, but they protect one party of divorce. The one who was dependent, will remain dependent as long as the law allows them this privilege. The laws hold accountability to the payer even forcing them into financial ruin. Then the law feels the payer is at fault and should be punished by imprisonment. The payer is responsible for all problems related to an ex partner - is responsible to pay-- The recipient is never accountable for their own well being. Nonsense. Absolute nonsense and this is being defended by dependent ex partners and the lawyers. What a disgrace.

Is anyone interested in starting alimony reform in Wisconsin? I was married for 20 years and she filed for divorce. Our children were grown when the divorce was final. That was 20 years ago. Last week I went back to court to end my maintenance. She hasn't worked in over a decade. She has been on disability for the last 6 years however none of her doctors ever said she shouldn't/couldn't work. She lives with her boyfriend that has a nice house with no mortgage and he hasn't worked in 18 months. She lied in her deposition and in court. My detective showed proof in court that she lied. Guess what - My maintenance didn't change. I'm sill paying $1000.00 a month indefinite maintenance. I've started a group on Facebook titled Wisconsin Alimony Reform ( W.A.R. ). Any helpful information or interest can contact me at this group. We need to make things fair and equitable as the law states and stop the life annuity maintenance has become!

Wow. Really. I am completely flustered by the amount of anger directed at "first wives" in this discussion. I was married for 25 years, moving 7 times in that time frame for his work, and working most of the time but never getting far in my job because of the moves. After 25 years he decided he had made a huge mistake in marrying me and left. (To pursue 27 year old women ha ha). Our two children were mostly raised by then. I still don't understand what I did or didn't do to make the marriage fail. But I do know that without his financial support, I would be living near the poverty level. I guess I am lucky in that he continues to support our two children and myself but I know that it cannot continue. If I can't count on the law placing any value on my marriage then maybe as a country we should just do away with legal marriage. Divorce was made difficult to protect families I thought. If we really think that marriage should end at divorce and be swept away as if it never happened, then why even bother the courts with it?

Is anyone interested in starting alimony reform in Ohio? I've been given a life sentence to pay an ex with substantial assets and a marketable skill. I'm permanently tied to someone who has mentally abused me. It has zapped joy from my work and left me very depressed. Her entire day is elective-walk the dog, sleep in, lunch out with friends. I, on the other hand, work nights and weekends in a high risk profession. Where is the fairness? I should hope the days of a woman as a helpless waif will be put to an end.

This article is interesting and brings many mixed discussion
and viewpoints for discussion and that is good.
I pay permanent alimony to a woman I was married 19 years. She divorced me. We were both retired military officers
receiving pensions. She had worked 13 of
19 years of our marriage and we had two children. College educated and bright, the judge
declared that we were both physically and mentally competent however, my
ex-wife was awarded permanent alimony of $2000.00 a month. Why?
Rehabilitative alimony is appropriate.
If it is not appropriate then some sort of rehabilitative alimony may be
appropriate.

The court system in Florida is presumed to look at all the
options for the divorcing couples but every case I have seen favors the lesser earning
spouse and if the marriage is over 17 years, it is permanent alimony. This makes a person of age forty-five after a
twenty-year marriage an indentured servant until death. My case is not unique but rather the default
finding in our family law courts. Family
lawyers say there are “modification” laws available to us and that is
true. I have sat in on cases where the
paying spouse is over the age of 70, on social security, declared bankruptcy
and still the courts order him to sell possessions, pay the alimony that is in arrears,
or go to jail. This cannot possibly be
fair or just. We need reform now. There needs to be guidelines for amount and
duration of alimony and there needs to be an end to alimony at normal retirement
age for the profession you work or social security full retirement age. One thing I did not mention is the cost of
divorce. Personally, I paid $33,000,
which included my lawyer costs and the costs I was awarded to pay for my
ex-wife’s legal costs. This is also a
common practice in Florida. This
permanent wound does not let the marriage end.
It creates a division between the parents and the children that exists
as long as there is alimony. It takes
money away from your children who lose child support at age 18 but their
mother/ex-spouse gets the money you would like to give to your children for
college or similar educational costs. I
could go on for much longer but bottom line; alimony needs to be reformed
yesterday and the bad findings of many judges need to be reversed and made
fair.

,I am an alimony payer who pays 1,200 dollars to my ex-wife and mother of
my children to whom has not participated in my children's lives since the
divorce. I had child support eliminated but I cannot get the alimony reduced.
She is perfectly capable to work (and is for her live in boyfriend). They will
not marry she would lose the alimony. So my children have lost the benefit of
having the money I pay her to which I would have given them. And she has never
given them any benefit of the monies I pay her.

@BrianHelly My ex deliberately dated an unemployed guy so his income would not affect the alimony payments. I had to continue to pay alimony so she could spend the summer in Europe with her boyfriend while I was unemployed. The judge thought my most important thing was to maintain the lifestyle of my ex - and cared nothing about my financial predicament. I think she expected me to loose everything before she would consider any relief on the alimony obligation. As the judge said - "Supporting your ex wife is your most important thing along with death and taxes". Luckily taxes are only payable in income you have. Alimony is payable on income you used to have. They my ex- went after my new girlfriend to pay the alimony instead - we we'rent even married; it was just because we lived in the same house. None of this made any sense to me. It is just a money making machine for attorneys. They love the ongoing "indefinite" alimony. Each time back to court can cost $30K. Ca-ching.

@ElizabethD'Amato-McWilliams@CFLAP That was my situation. I was struggling working 2 jobs to make ends meet. When I asked my wife to get a job and help with the bills, she stomped her foot on the floor and said "your my husband, its your job to support me" That's when the light bulb came on and I realized that I wasn't married to someone who loved me but rather being her husband was my third job. She didn't want to be a mother either as she aborted our 2nd child against my wishes. When I divorced her she portrayed herself as the ideal wife and mother.

@CFLAP So many people I know did not agree with their wives' decision to stay at home. They can't force their wife to work. Then the wives file for divorce and get stuck with permanent alimony. Moral of the story? No good deed goes unpunished. You stay with an undesirable spouse to be a good parent and then you get f*c*ed by the legal system.

Proponents of lifetime alimony will continue to beat the drum of a debt owed to the alimony recipient by the payer because of their choice to use their children as an excuse not to better themselves or prepare for their future. Reformers must not forget that this is a fabricated debt that's made up to establish the "entitlement" justification.

This is peonage and is against federal law. Slave owners did this to slaves when they were emancipated. They created a debt owed to the plantation owner by the slave so the slave would have to work it off. How is this different from permanent alimony? THERE IS NO DEBT.

I am fairly certain most of these women feeling entitled to LIFETIME alimony are members of NOW. Since when did NOW become such a hypocritical organization? I thought NOW stood for equal rights for women. Now NOW wants special treatment of women at any cost. They don't want to take care of themselves. They want permanent handouts. The women who started NOW, if alive, are turning in their graves!!!

I was a stay at home mom for over 20 years. I expected enough alimony to rebuild, retool, for a new life, but never did I expect to be compensated for the rest of my life just for having married and raised kids. Why do stay at home mothers think they are entitled to life long pensions? In certain cases it may be justified, but no other occupation pays for willingly taking on responsibility for the kids. Nowadays full time motherhood is a privilege, not a right. And yes, we don't have the same earning power of a woman who worked throughout the marriage - again- it was our choice. No one put a gun to our heads. This is especially true of ex wives whose kids have flown the nest. One woman whined about not being able to stay in the family home - well, how many retired couples get to do this? There is an overweening sense of entitlement here. Not in all cases. But in many. It's time for women to grow up.

The problem with alimony is that in its current form in many
states it is obsolete. Going back to the origin of Alimony in the England,
alimony was payable because on divorce the man kept ALL of the assets, and so
he paid alimony to support his ex-wife. Today assets
are typically split 50/50, including retirement accounts, and then
the higher earner gets stuck with a lifetime of support payments to the lower
earner. Alimony enables the vindictive ex-spouse to have their cake and eat it
too. Remember that in most states child support and spousal support are paid
separately, so cutting alimony will still provide adequate support for
children. But many people with just a few years of marriage can be left with
1000's of dollars to pay each month, which over their lifetime can equate to
MILLIONS of dollars - for couples whose combined net worth
is significantly less than that. The result is that the receiver cannot
work or retire early, while the payer can be left NEVER being able to
retire. What needs to change: If a divorcing spouse is CAPABLE of supporting
themselves, not alimony should be payable, except for some limited transitional
payments. There is no reason for the duration of alimony to exceed 50% of the
length of the marriage. Alimony should NOT be payable after retirement,
especially if significant retirement funds are split. Any liability to pay
spousal support should terminate spousal support, and the income and assets of
the new spouse of the payer should never be taken into consideration for any
adjustment. And the amount payable should not exceed 25% of the difference in
the couple’s incomes. Note that child support is often paid in addition to
spousal support, and the amount of child support payable is determines by well-defined
equations.

Couples need a clean break
and not be subject to a lifetime of litigation and extortionate attorney fees. The ongoing legal battles perpetuate the family conflict and make for an unhealthy environment for the children.

Every state is different, but
it makes no sense that it is the state in which you divorce that counts. Not
the state you married in. Advice: Move to Texas before you divorce, or make
sure you have a pre-nup.

All other states should:

Limit the length of alimony
to 50% of the length of the marriage

Cap alimony at 25% of the
difference in incomes

Terminate alimony on
remarriage or cohabitation of the recipient

Exclude the income/assets of
the new spouse of the payer

Any reasonable person would
consider these simple rules fair and reasonable.

@AndrewPDX That is NOT correct : In the victorian britain the woman automatically got 30% of the man's assets ( btw women could also work, study, make business, etc.p.p ...yes, all that stuff u believed in 'how women had it x years ago' is plain feminist propaganda and lies. approx 98% of it is pure vile political/strategical lies with zero remorse or bad conciousness whatsoever, they just ARE that evil. Victorian times were just as gynocentric as today. )

The
state of New Jersey should enact Mandatory Divorce Arbitration statutes so that
the transfer of wealth is limited in a divorce matter. The Family Court Judges,
when they award Attorney’s fees, are perpetuating the divorce process which can
bankrupt a family. New Jersey Legislators should enact statutes which make
“Mandatory Mediation” a condition of the issuance of a marriage license. Mandatory
arbitration would start with the Marriage License. The license application
would require any pre-martial assets with a value greater than $25,000 be listed.
All other property would become the property of the marriage partnership to be
split equally upon the dissolution of the marriage.The statutes should allow, upon the filing
for divorce, that an immediate
bifurcation would occur between the actual legal divorce and any financial
matters such as equitable distribution, alimony and child support. This would
hasten the emotional healing and allow for a more cooperative negotiation for
the resolution of the financial aspects of the marriage.

We
should codify that the Arbitration process shall not take no longer than one
year to complete. This would greatly decrease the amount of time to obtain a
divorce and would preserve martial assets for the divorcing family. The system,
as is currently exists, abets the exhausting of martial assets through the
payment of legal fees. This would limit the Attorney fees and transfer of
wealth.

The
new law would mandate the use of mediation panels to dissolve the divorce; each
panel should consist of three people; each parties Attorney and one Certified
Public Account who would cast any deciding vote in the event that the two
parties attorneys cannot equitably resolve an issue.

The use of a mediation panel would limit
the parties’ manipulation of the Family Courts for personal gain and help the
parties of the marriage to become financially independent people able to
contribute to their own support.

The
listing of any pre-martial assets on the marriage license would simplify the
“Equitable Distribution” process for the divorcing parties. Any assets not
listed on the Marriage license would become martial assets and split 50/50.

The
new statute should codify that there is a 50/50 automatic presumption of child
custody which would not require any child support from either party. If it is
determined, by the parties, that a 50/50 presumption of child custody will not
work the existing New Jersey Child support guidelines should be used for the determination
of child support.

Mandatory
Arbitration should use new mandatory guidelines for the determination of
alimony duration and amount. This will limit judicial delays in the process and
set financial expectations for the divorcing couple. Permanent alimony should
be abolished from the NJ Statutes as an antiquated idea which no longer applies
in the 21st century.

One
of the most important effects of mandatory arbitration would be the positive
effect on the children of the marriage. Their emotional stress would be reduced
and the chance of parenteral alienation lessened. The Family Court system
should foster parenteral relationships with their children. This would actually
be in the best interest of the children.

Hurtles will need to be overcome
to enact Legislation for “Mandatory Arbitration”. New Law must be drafted and
passed. Arbitration panels must be set up and funded. Economic Mediation Panels
are already used in the divorce process, but on an informal basis, but are not
legally binding. Some of the funding could be offset by merging the two
functions. Higher fees for marriage licenses could be charged. Attorneys, who
wish to practice Family Law, must pay an additional yearly fee to the state.
Fewer Family Court Judges would be required and those cost savings could be
used to partially fund the arbitration panels.

The Family Court System as well
as the Family Law Section of the Bar Association should foster these changes as
they are in the best interest of the people. A wholly ethical and transparent
approach must be followed in this matter for all concerned parties.

Adopting fair Mandatory
Arbitration statutes would go a long way in restoring the public’s confidence
in our Family Court system and the Family Law profession.

No one should be required to pay alimony (or even award custody) to a spouse that has habitually cheated, actively and consistently abused drugs or alcohol, or committed physical or verbal abuse. Be it husband or wife...