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30 Jul 2008, 02:57

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That's not saying much - the average person thinks Princeton Law is one of the top 5 law schools in the US (a survey from a couple of years ago) - obviously, Princeton has no such school. That, as a lot of others have pointed out, is a huge attraction for folks applying to the Yale SOM (and Oxford and Cambridge) - the perceived prestige of their brands alone. Another example would be the fact that very often the first thing you hear about Cornell is "It's Ivy League!" - so Johnson must be as elite as it comes. No one has any idea what the Ivy League is, but Ivy League = Elite.

Therefore, "international reputation" is hardly a metric anyone should consider at when considering graduate school. A lot of folks abroad still consider the Univ. of Chicago to be the same as the Univ. of Illinois-Chicago. One good non-US example would be how for some reason everyone also seems to think of La Sorbonne as one of the most elite institutions in world. And don't even get me started about the lack of "reputation" of some of the elite liberal arts colleges....

Do your own research, forget about what people think about where you went to school. People don't know any better.

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I'd put UCLA in this group. And considering the Globe, Oxford and Cambridge are together with MIT; Harvard, Stanford, Princeton and Yale, I'd say that Berkeley and LA a little bit lower.

But if we talk o particular niches, then perception would change a bit (but with the big names still there), for instance in Medicine Johns Hopkins, with economics UoC, etc, etc.

I do believe that in 10 years Yale will be an "M7-extended" school, they have MONEY to do so (and they want to); however, its peers won't be standing still, this is business as usual, aren't we talking about B-School?

H, S, W, MIT, Kellogg, GSB, CBS, Haas, Tuck and Yale will "fight" for the M7s, followed close by NYU, Ross, UCLA, Johnson, Fuqua, and Darden.

Internationally speaking, I think that INSEAD, IMD; LBS, IESE, Cambridge and Oxford will be the European M6.
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30 Jul 2008, 12:21

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There was a post floating around here not too long ago that listed GMAC's 2008 registration numbers and compared them to last year's numbers. In a nutshell, there was about a 20% increase in registrants from non-US countries, and about a 6% increase with US registrants.

People hypothesized about these numbers and what they may signify. To relate those numbers with this sub forum (the increase in Yale applicants), in my opinion, we might see a larger increase in applicants to schools ranked 10-20 than the top 10 schools - for this year at least. The reason being is the following:

1) H/S/W caliber applicants do realize we're in a recession. Most of them would have looked at those GMAC charts. With the dollar so cheap, they also realize that internationals will find US MBAs pretty cheap. To play it safe, even though they may feel they have a solid shot at H/S/W, they may ALSO apply to Yale/Cornell caliber schools instead of MIT/Kellogg/Columbia.

2) The trend for younger applicants just took off this year (or maybe last year). This has caught many 28-30 year olds by surprise that were under the impression that they could hibernate for a few years after college before even thinking of taking the GMAT. So this pool of applicants is under pressure to get into anything THIS year. That is why they will find Cornell/Yale among their primary choices as opposed to the top 5-10 schools.

3) I see international applicants falling into three broad groups: a) emerging markets applicants, b) European applicants, and c) underdeveloped countries applicants.

a) In my opinion, the 20% increase in GMAC international registrants is probably composed mostly of applicants from emerging markets (India, China, Brazil, Russia, United Arab Emirates (Dubai/Abu Dhabi), and some African countries. In the past, the ideal scenario of those graduates was to find jobs in the US. Now that their countries are doing quite well, they don't mind going back and developing their nations further. They also can afford US MBAs (roughly $150K for the two years). This pool of applicants, in my opinion, would ideally like to get into H/S/W, but I don't think they see it as a necessity as for example, a Goldman Sachs analyst with a BA or BS from a top 10 US university. For this reason, they would be very happy with top 20 schools. Also, business schools might show some love this year to this pool of applicants because at least those graduates WILL find jobs at companies like GS but in Rio instead of Manhattan.

b) European schooling is quite different from American and Canadian schooling. Their programs are usually shorter. For example, their bachelor’s degrees are 3 years, masters 1 year, PhDs 3 years and MBAs 1 year, as opposed to 4 years for bachelors, 2 years for masters, 4+ years for PhDs and 2 years for MBAs in North America. Also, European applicants tend to be older. They can afford plenty with their Euro being so strong, but I see a decline in Western European applicants to top 10-20 schools, and instead they may concentrate on H/S/W or schools in cities like NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago – I just cannot see Londoners and Parisians living in Hanover, New Hampshire or New Haven, Connecticut (trust me, I know from experience from my college years). I do however, feel that there will be more new-to-the-EU applicants and they may target top 10-20 schools.

c) Underdeveloped applicants: this pool usually wishes to find jobs in the US after their MBAs. In other words, they see their MBA degree as their ticket to moving to the US. Those applicants, in my opinion, may not be too picky with the schools. They may target some regional powerhouses, for example, UT Austin if they wish to get recruited in the oil and gas industry.

4) The value of an MBA is no longer a subjective debate – it’s a fact. An MBA is truly worth the time and money across all fields and all industries. This all good news for schools in the top 10-20.

5) Yale SOM in specific seems to fill a niche that MIT has filled, but in the polar opposite of Yale. If MIT is the Mecca for scientists and engineers, and if those engineering MBA applicants can rub some MIT on themselves through Sloan, then so be it. The same is true for Yale but for applicants with backgrounds in the humanities and social sciences.

6) The financial sector of the US economy might be behind the 6% increase in US GMAC registrants (I’m even surprised the number isn’t higher!). Those applicants would ideally target H/S/W plus NY Stern and Columbia. But Yale and Cornell’s latest IB placements show some promise, and so applicants from the financial sector might be quite interested in these two schools to add to Stern and CBS.

All of those reasons might, in my opinion, translate to more applicants to Yale this year. Getting an MBA is like buying your first stock – you often overkill your research and end up buying into a company that demonstrates confidence. And likewise, Yale appears to be quite confident with their future outlook and that’s why I think they will see more applicants.

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I'm going to have to agree with those who have already said that Berkeley > Haas. Berkeley has an outstanding reputation in so many disciplines. I also think that Dartmouth = Tuck and Columbia >= CBS.

I myself am thinking about applying to Yale, mainly b/w my brother is doing residency there but I think I have a good chance of getting into a higher ranked school. Anyone have an opinion on IM out of Yale SOM?

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Also, business schools might show some love this year to this pool of applicants because at least those graduates WILL find jobs at companies like GS but in Rio instead of Manhattan.

Just one thing, if you meant Rio de Janeiro you're wrong, it would be São Paulo, at least 95% of the financial industry in Brasil in Sao Paulo, GS is also there. But I agree and I personally know many Brazilian people who before would kill to get a job in Wall Street or The City and know they just don't mind to return to São Paulo.

I think that the problem with Yale is almost the same of that with Cornell and Tuck you mentioned. People who are used to live in cities such as São Paulo, Moscow, etc, will want to stay in big cities, with museums, theaters, night life, etc. And for this I believe that NYU for instance would be their natural backups.

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Also, business schools might show some love this year to this pool of applicants because at least those graduates WILL find jobs at companies like GS but in Rio instead of Manhattan.

Just one thing, if you meant Rio de Janeiro you're wrong, it would be São Paulo, at least 95% of the financial industry in Brasil in Sao Paulo, GS is also there. But I agree and I personally know many Brazilian people who before would kill to get a job in Wall Street or The City and know they just don't mind to return to São Paulo.

I think that the problem with Yale is almost the same of that with Cornell and Tuck you mentioned. People who are used to live in cities such as São Paulo, Moscow, etc, will want to stay in big cities, with museums, theaters, night life, etc. And for this I believe that NYU for instance would be their natural backups.

Anyway, interesting analysis kudos

Thanks for the kudos!

I meant Rio as a hypothetical example only. I don't even know where GS has offices in Brazil.

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Before doing my research on MBAs, the only US universities I knew were:- Harvard -> no need to explain- MIT -> no need to explain- Yale -> no need to explain- Berkeley -> students protests in the 60s/70s- Chicago -> Chicago school of economics- UCLA -> I saw something on TV about their world class athletes

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Internationally, there are only a few schools that demands prestige across the globe:

Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, and Berkeley. Columbia, Oxford, and Cambridge are in the mix. In the business school world, you have Wharton. That's about it!

Notice that Berkeley is the only public institution in the list, hence it has qualities such as being more down to earth, accessible to the common folks, students of diverse backgrounds, goals of educating the masses, etc. It lacks the elitist and even arrogant reputation that the other privates in the list has. (I'm not saying the other privates are really elitist or arrogant, but they definitely have the reputation of being so). Some people will subconsciously equate elitism/arrogance to prestige, but that shouldn't be the case. Berkeley's academic reputation, distinguished faculty, and influential research definitely carries significant prestige around the world. It's not a coincidence that Harvard is constantly trying to steal professors from Berkeley.

Berkeley's reputation is definitely equal to if not higher than Haas itself, remember Haas was ranked in the low teens not too long ago, so its still volatile, whereas Berkeley itself has been up there for the better part of the century. Take a look at the universities with the highest number of graduate programs in the TOP 10:

Berkeley is one of the very few institutions that excel across all departments. I don't have the exact figures for undergrad, but it's pretty much the same, top ranked across all departments. In addition, Berkeley ranks in the top 6 out of all universities in Nobel Prize affiliations, a distinction that is synonymous with prestige. Other public schools are definitely not at that level.

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31 Jul 2008, 12:40

If Yale plans on expanding its entering class with the new building, then I would guess that they would want to start increasing their class sizes gradually. I just don't see how they would go from a class of X students to a class of 2X in one year.

Also, Yale SOM might be boasting of its new GMAT average stats in order to attract more UE applicants.

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31 Jul 2008, 14:18

I'm with you on this one. A few years ago Stanford averaged 720 odd. That has come down now. A really high GMAT average makes the applicant pool that much more self-selecting, making the overall selectivity come down (as less people apply). Overall selectivity and yield are also criteria in some rankings.

ryguy904 wrote:

sarzan wrote:

Also, Yale SOM might be boasting of its new GMAT average stats in order to attract more UE applicants.