That's what I was getting at, 20C at idle is a bit much for most configurations because it's getting too close to ambient temperatures. Under load is a different matter. I didn't mention that in my original post, my mistake. For some reason I just assumed it was idle temps, and you know what they say about assumption.

My own WC system probably manages more than 20C under load, but I never ran the system on air so I can't make an accurate comparison.

~El~Jefe~, don't be so childish.

sorry for being childish.

I hate people like that posting on here though. they always react with pseudo-intellectual flair. you dont need to be an intellectual to site a fact or know something either. You just need to actually have witnessed something happening instead of taking witness to one's own conjecture.

I don't think having a single rad with single 120mm fan is necessarily a problem. My current system cools a 4400+ X2 and 7800GT with a DD heatercore and single 120mm Yate Loon at 5V. Away from very high end overclocked systems, I'm not sure you need massive rads.

A 120.3 should be able to cool even a quad core / 8800 Ultra system easily.

The biggest problem I have with rads is that there is not really a good way to mount them in cases. At least not any descent rads. That's why I'm so interested in the Antec Twelve Hundred. Assuming the rad is up to dissipating 300W of heat (QX6700 130W, 8800 Ultra 150W, plus maybe NB) and it is reasonably priced...

I think it needs someone like Antec to bring water cooling into the mainstream. Imagine if you could buy a case which already had the radiator, pump and fillport/res fitted. Imagine if they were good quality components too, not the usual kit rubbish. You could then just pick waterblocks for your components and fit it all up almost as easily as air heatsinks.

I think the problem is the insistence on using the case internals as fans for a radiator. I never did that, always had the radiator core outside the machine. make a long enough radiator, you dont need a fan for a lower powered machine. I always like one fan and so I put a slow moving one in front of them. except now that I have the reserator system which is obviously fanless and holds fine on x1900 xt and 4400 939 dual core loop.

I play all the highest end games on max and it never blinks a blue eye.

This thread has stood the test of time but I figured it needed some flaming from my part to restore its vitality. Remembering SPCR is all about quiet computing I can't help but reacting to lots of posts from the pro water cooling side.

I counted 5 posts claiming one 1x12 radiator is enough to make it all fantastically quiet.
I noticed several people claiming their system is quieter than any air alternative even though they obviously enough keep their pump turned on.
I saw lots of posts claiming better OC performance for W/C, but at least nobody's saying OCing facilitates quietening.
I keep reading about fans, on whichever rad, running over 4V and still the owner claim the system is silent or at least quieter than air.
I read a lot about GPUs but not so much about HDDs which seems to imply the W/C crowd's computers are not quiet enough for the drives to emerge as the worst noise polluters yet. (My main drive's inside a box in a densely sound dampened case and still can be heard behind the 100~300 rpm Nexus fans. That's less than 4V btw.)
I never read anything about how the air alternatives, like ducts passing passive heatsinks, would be noisier. (Not generating higher maximum cooling capacity. Just noisier.)
I kept reading "but that can be done by..." but few are actually doing it because it's too damn hard. Believe me when I say pulling off feats like completely dampening a pump isn't coming easy.
I missed any conclusions stemming from MikeC's input on heatpipes.
I couldn't see any actual, running, existing W/C setup presented here that's quieter than my air rig. Nor cheaper, smaller, reliable-er or practical-aler.
I didn't get any reaction to my main concern: the continuing issues of advice to beginners to go W/C for silence. It's folly.

But in all honesty there's no stopping the hobby aspect of W/C so by all means knock yourselves out! God knows I did.

My CPU and GPU temps never get above 45C, even after several hours of 3DMark or ATITool/CPUBurnX2.

Quote:

I noticed several people claiming their system is quieter than any air alternative even though they obviously enough keep their pump turned on.

My pump is silent in my case. Eheim 1048 mounted on foam. Tubes are also foam mounted where they touch the case because I found they were vibrating too.

Of course, the system isn't quieter than a passive or single fan air cooled system, but it was also a pretty high end system at the time.

I think you are reading too much in to what people are saying. Sure, air cooling is very good, but ultimately WC can out perform it. If you need that level of performance is up to you, if not you can build a slightly lower performance silent system on air for a lot less money.

Quote:

I keep reading about fans, on whichever rad, running over 4V and still the owner claim the system is silent or at least quieter than air.

I suppose it depends on your system. I find Yate Loons at 5V inaudible in my two systems (customised server case and P182). The HDDs and the plumbing in my house make more noise.

If you find you need to run your fans at 4V or lower, maybe they are damaged or you are just super-sensitive to noise. I had my hearing tested last month and I'm above average. I am also in to headphones in a big (read: expensive) way so I'm pretty sure my hearing is good.

I generally see no point running my fans below 5V because they are already silent. Actually, in the P182 with WD500AAKS HDDs I can go to about 8-9V before the fans become louder than the HDDs.

Quote:

I read a lot about GPUs but not so much about HDDs which seems to imply the W/C crowd's computers are not quiet enough for the drives to emerge as the worst noise polluters yet.

Mine are. I used to have Grow Up Japan Smart Drive 2002 enclosures and they still were.

Quote:

I kept reading "but that can be done by..." but few are actually doing it because it's too damn hard. Believe me when I say pulling off feats like completely dampening a pump isn't coming easy.

I didn't find it very difficult. Mine isn't even the quietest or lowest vibration pump.

Quote:

I didn't get any reaction to my main concern: the continuing issues of advice to beginners to go W/C for silence. It's folly.

It all depends what your goal is. If you want a very high end system producing lots of heat, WC is worth considering for silence. You could just use air with variable speed fans perhaps, although that doesn't help if you do overnight renders or run distributed computing projects.

Have you posted any pics or specs for your PC to compare them against?

A quick search of the forum didn't throw up anything.

EDIT:

snutten wrote:

Watercooling is quieter huh? I just built an AMD X2 computer with a Ninja, an ASUS EN7600GT Silent graphics, a Silverstone passive PSU, a Raptor in a mCubed Vertical Silence box and two 250 GB Samsung 5400 rpm HDDs as storage (hanging from silicone strings) in a sound isolated case. It spins a total of two Nexus 120, one Nexus 92 and one Papst 4412FGL, all under 4 volts with dust filters hence running four fans hooked up on a T-balancer (still trimming in). Rest assured it's absolutely super quiet, cross my heart and hope to die.Just starting a water pump makes more noise unless it's in a dead box. Anything but passive rads are sure to lose out because of the fins that actually can make as much noise as the fan itself on low rpms.

Save something drastic happens I won't touch W/C again, that's for sure. If you have to have the latest bombastic GPU then maybe there are miniscule reasons for using a pump to move that heat a couple of centimeters, but really, come on... if a computer can't be heard while air-cooled then why the **** bother with something hard to install, hard to move, expensive, maintenance demanding and risky instead?

If you can hear the Raptor maybe it's time for a solid state drive.

There probably isn't much discussion of hard drive noise here because most people will treat them in the same way whether they watercool the main components (CPU, GPU and northbridge) or use aircooling. You don't see many PCs with watercooled hard drives. Having some watercooled components doesn't rule out using the same hard drive quieting methods (suspension, enclosures etc) that would be used in an air cooled PC.

Quieting a noisy mechanical hard drive is really a seperate debate in the same way that coil whine is: If a graphics card or motherboard for example has electrical buzzing issues then switching between air cooling or water cooling for it won't make any difference either.

Last edited by WR304 on Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

- For low power systems, 1x120mm is enough (A64 3000+ Venice @ 2.7 GHz w/6600 GT)
- For cooling high power system (QX9650 @ 4 GHz w/X38 and 3870) 5V Yate Loon DSL12 is enough (both cooling and quiet)
- Scythe Quiet Drive for Hitachi 1 TB, WD 5000AAKS, WD 1TB GP is enough to get it very quiet. Seeks on the Hitachi still come out. A quick search shows you use a Raptor...
- 1048 is almost inaudible if properly bled and decoupled. I'm using DD-CPX1 12V pumps and they are VERY quiet.
- Water cooling is NOT for beginners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe we have different standards. My radiator fans used to be 4412's @ ~3.5V and guess what? My air rig is way quieter.

MoJo wrote:

My pump is silent in my case. Eheim 1048 mounted on foam.

My 1048 was the loudest part of my system (until I got that horrible DDC) and I quickly gave up on the idea of having it placed on foam. I hanged it free in the air using soft silicon cords, so no vibration problems at all. But it still made noise even from within my case which is meticulously isolated with really thick and heavy sound dampening materials.

MoJo wrote:

Of course, the system isn't quieter than a passive or single fan air cooled system, but it was also a pretty high end system at the time.

This is my point. If the W/C setup isn't quieter than the air alternative, then why bother?

MoJo wrote:

Quote:

I keep reading about fans, on whichever rad, running over 4V and still the owner claim the system is silent or at least quieter than air.

I generally see no point running my fans below 5V because they are already silent. Actually, in the P182 with WD500AAKS HDDs I can go to about 8-9V before the fans become louder than the HDDs.

Because you haven't bothered to stuff you HDDs in boxes like e.g. Mcubed Vertical Silence, hang it in silicon and thoroughly isolate the case walls with something that really works? Otherwise, how can the HDD bother you more than that YL @ 5V with rad fins and all? Maybe you dislike the HDD seek noise more than anything else?

MoJo wrote:

Quote:

I read a lot about GPUs but not so much about HDDs which seems to imply the W/C crowd's computers are not quiet enough for the drives to emerge as the worst noise polluters yet.

Mine are. I used to have Grow Up Japan Smart Drive 2002 enclosures and they still were.

This surprises me a bit. Maybe we are talking about different things here. If you mean to tell me you can hear the drive seeks behind the fan, then of course you'd be right about that. But I really can't pick up any bothersome whining idle sound at all from my drives unless I put my ear rather close to the case. Seeks are almost impossible to get rid of though. What drives are you using?

MoJo wrote:

Quote:

I kept reading "but that can be done by..." but few are actually doing it because it's too damn hard. Believe me when I say pulling off feats like completely dampening a pump isn't coming easy.

I didn't find it very difficult. Mine isn't even the quietest or lowest vibration pump.

Your engineering skills perhaps surpass mine.

MoJo wrote:

Quote:

I didn't get any reaction to my main concern: the continuing issues of advice to beginners to go W/C for silence. It's folly.

It all depends what your goal is. If you want a very high end system producing lots of heat, WC is worth considering for silence.

I concede, as long as a Zalman passive case or something in the line is out. But a T-balancer goes a long way.

SUMMARY:
Long rant proving that a good W/C system can be just as quiet as an air system.

Why not go for a passive PSU?
I believe Saphire and Powercolor makes that GPU with passive heatsinks?
How is your [email protected] + Pump (the rest is on same terms) not noisier than my suspended (in free air, no fins) Nexuses all running on less than 3.5V?
Are you tempted to write me off with "I can't hear it"? Because it's not relevant unless you can say "It's quieter than your air alternative", wouldn't you agree?

Maybe we have different standards. My radiator fans used to be 4412's @ ~3.5V and guess what? My air rig is way quieter.

My hearing is fine thanks. Inaudible means I cannot hear it. I sit 1m away from the PC with it under my desk. I live near a main road, but at night there is no traffic and it is very quiet.

Quote:

My 1048 was the loudest part of my system (until I got that horrible DDC) and I quickly gave up on the idea of having it placed on foam. I hanged it free in the air using soft silicon cords, so no vibration problems at all. But it still made noise even from within my case which is meticulously isolated with really thick and heavy sound dampening materials.

It was probably not working right. The 1048 is quite sensitive to having the impeller properly balanced and free to spin. If it gets dirt in it or is for some reason slightly off centre, it can make more noise.

You can also mod it with PTFE tape to prevent that happening. The PTFE mod means that it could potentially jam if dirt ever got in it, but in a PC that isn't an issue (it was designed for pond use with small stones etc).

Quote:

This is my point. If the W/C setup isn't quieter than the air alternative, then why bother?

Um... because it is quieter???

Please read what I write before replying. You will note that I was pointing out that water cooling is not quieter in mid or low end systems, only high end systems where you need massive amounts of cooling.

Quote:

Because you haven't bothered to stuff you HDDs in boxes like e.g. Mcubed Vertical Silence, hang it in silicon and thoroughly isolate the case walls with something that really works?

Actually, I did. Grow Up Japan Smart Drive 2002c, generally thought of as being the best silent HDD boxes available, suspended with elastic cord.

Quote:

Otherwise, how can the HDD bother you more than that YL @ 5V with rad fins and all? Maybe you dislike the HDD seek noise more than anything else?

The WD5000AAKS has a sound like a low RPM fan when spinning. They are not in Silent Drive enclosures at the moment, just suspended. Actually, I used Samsung Spinpoints with Nidec motors and WD5000KS before, which were even quieter (silent when suspended with the case closed at 1m). I still could not hear the pump.

It was probably not working right. The 1048 is quite sensitive to having the impeller properly balanced and free to spin. If it gets dirt in it or is for some reason slightly off centre, it can make more noise.

You can also mod it with PTFE tape to prevent that happening. The PTFE mod means that it could potentially jam if dirt ever got in it, but in a PC that isn't an issue (it was designed for pond use with small stones etc).

I had two different 1048 and both were the same. But I never knew about that tape mod. Should be great because undoubtedly my 1048's made slightly more noise when back pressure increased. I split my line to decrease head.

MoJo wrote:

Quote:

This is my point. If the W/C setup isn't quieter than the air alternative, then why bother?

Um... because it is quieter???

Please read what I write before replying. You will note that I was pointing out that water cooling is not quieter in mid or low end systems, only high end systems where you need massive amounts of cooling.

I have on several occasions admitted that for the most extreme video cards sometimes there's no passive alternative, leaving only W/C as a quiet option. You, on the other hand, just defended the people claiming a single rad is quieter than my air alternative and I must have missed where you limit this to extreme hardware.

Considering the "high end" claim: Your current system could easily be cooled in my case, using my cooling devices. Quieter too, because I wouldn't have to spin any YL's at 5V or listen to any pump either. I admit this is somewhat irrelevant considering the HDDs are the same culprits in either case. But spending time and money quietening the drives seems smarter than trying to avoid the low rpm Nexuses I'm using to cool my GPU, CPU and PSU.

MoJo wrote:

Quote:

Because you haven't bothered to stuff you HDDs in boxes like e.g. Mcubed Vertical Silence, hang it in silicon and thoroughly isolate the case walls with something that really works?

Actually, I did. Grow Up Japan Smart Drive 2002c, generally thought of as being the best silent HDD boxes available, suspended with elastic cord.

What did you use to sound isolate your case? This is the most important step. Did it not work well?

MoJo wrote:

The WD5000AAKS has a sound like a low RPM fan when spinning. They are not in Silent Drive enclosures at the moment, just suspended. Actually, I used Samsung Spinpoints with Nidec motors and WD5000KS before, which were even quieter (silent when suspended with the case closed at 1m). I still could not hear the pump.

(My bold)
Again, apart from my boxed-in Raptor I use 2xSamsung Spinpoint V (5400rpm, very cool and quiet) and a WD5000KS (all hanging in soft silicon). I sure as heckfire can hear them but it's on a totally different level compared to before I decided to isolate my case internals.

I can hear my HDDs, but only the seeks reach me sitting at my desk.
My 1048 drove me nuts.
My [email protected] on rads were too noisy.
Cooling a whole high end system on one 1x12 rad would be a complete nightmare compared to what I use now.

maybe this thread is coming down to what each of us mean by 'high end' or 'extreme'. i never considered my system as extreme, though you say you think i might be right thinking a w/c system might be cooler/quieter doing what i do with it....but you then say your a/c setup will deal with a 'high end' system. Might just be down to definitions. Without the 8800gtx my system is pretty cool doing general stuff, and I believe a good a/c solution would keep it happy. But the 8800gtx kicks out huge heat waves all the time and folding 24/7 keeps the cpu pretty hot.

_________________There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.
My Folds

Why not go for a passive PSU?I believe Saphire and Powercolor makes that GPU with passive heatsinks?How is your [email protected] + Pump (the rest is on same terms) not noisier than my suspended (in free air, no fins) Nexuses all running on less than 3.5V?Are you tempted to write me off with "I can't hear it"? Because it's not relevant unless you can say "It's quieter than your air alternative", wouldn't you agree?

I doubt that any passive PSU would be able to handle this setup when it is loaded. In fact, I ran an Antec Phantom 500W on a similarly specced system and it got hot enough for the fan on it to start up.

There are passive 3870s, however seeing as how I've had regular 3870s throttle on me (stock HSF, with a fan at fixed speed due to BIOS bug), I prefer to put some form of active cooling on it.. as a bonus, I get to overclock.

Would your cooling setup be able to handle my system? What PSU are you running? What is the point in running 3.5V fans when the PSU contributes all of the noise? Have you listened to a DD-CPX1 pump?

I could likely run my rad fans at 3.5V and still have enough cooling for my system. When I get to the point where my PSU is no longer the loudest component, perhaps I will.

I use a Silverstone passive PSU. But I have a top blowhole in my case since my W/C heydays. Now I use that to feed fresh air to the PSU by use of a Nexus 120 fan, perhaps running around 3V or so. Any PSU needs some cooling if pushed and I prefer to control this myself with my T-balancer. Basically, the only thing I can hear from my computer are the drives so I can't say I miss my W/C system at all. I miss a solid state, that's what I miss!

I built an Audio Recording Workstation out of a P182 case and use the Zalman Reserator to cool the cpu and graphics card. That leave VERY little heat inside the case so the fans could be replaced and slowed down until they were inaudible. That's inaudible in an absolutely silent recording environment. The Zalman isn't typical of Water Cooling tools, but it's silence can't be replicated with fans so that at least answers your challenge.

First of all, water cooling isn't obsolete. It has a small niche in extreme overclocks with high power systems: It can achieve silence levels almost comparable to quiet air cooling, even with heavy overclocks. But this requires experience, a lot of effort and money.

Water cooling in medium and low power systems is pointless.

As a personal opinion I'd also like to point out, that just like with cooling, silence has a point of diminishing returns. For example zooms example of 2x [email protected] should be quiet enough for all but the most obsessed people. Just like with cooler temps, going quieter can give you only bragging rights in the internet, but hardly any other tangible benefits.

P.S: I'd like to assume zoob meant low speed YLs, but I'm 90% sure these are medium speed YLs he was talking about. That means you can get more or less the same overclocks with air cooling. For example Thermalright Ultra Extreme + 800rpm Scythe Slip Stream and Arctic Cooling Accelero S1 VGA Cooler + 800rpm Scythe Slip Stream will probably be able to handle 4Ghz Quad (or something only a bit short from 4Ghz) and still remain more silent then the water cooled rig.

Volts are too vague to imply any kind of silence, unless the fan model is specified. For example Scythe S-Flex @12V can vary anywhere from ~20 dBA to 31dBA depending on the model.

I built an Audio Recording Workstation out of a P182 case and use the Zalman Reserator to cool the cpu and graphics card. That leave VERY little heat inside the case so the fans could be replaced and slowed down until they were inaudible. That's inaudible in an absolutely silent recording environment. The Zalman isn't typical of Water Cooling tools, but it's silence can't be replicated with fans so that at least answers your challenge.

I believe I can pick up your white glove. As weapons I chose my Nexuses under 4V. Are your fans quieter? What PSU are you using? Is your case sound isolated or do you use a solid state? (If not, you are already beaten, water or not. The HDDs are the noisiest parts in any near silent system with spinning discs.)
Is the pump in the Reserator quieter than a [email protected]? (Honest question, I've never listened to a Reserator myself.)
Anyways, your claim that your "silence" can't be replicated is a bold one.

I confess to having posted braggy commercials about my quiet air system, but in all honesty I feel the need to flash it every time some W/C adverbocater keeps repeating something like "because it's quieter" or tell me an [email protected] is silent, which makes me all confrontational because I can hear my Nexus fans @3.5V and quiet does not equal silent. And why aren't they focusing on the worst noisemakers to begin with? (Psst. It's the hard drives. Unless your PSU is loud or your GPU needs its own nuclear plant.)

I think what it boils down to snutten is you seem to be super sensitive to noise.

I had my hearing tested recently, and it was above average for a 27 year old. No hearing loss/damage what so ever. I also a >Â£1250 headphone rig (Audio Technica W5000 'phones, AT-HA5000 amp and C.E.C. DA-53 DAC). I make my own amps too, and sing. I therefore tend to think my ears are not too bad.

Late at night the area is very quiet, no traffic or other noise. Inside a good case (e.g. P180 or server case the brand of which I forget) a Yate Loon 12cm fan at 5V is inaudible to me.

At 1m, the Slipstream 800, powered at 7V, registered no change in the 17 dBA ambient when it was turned off/on.

17dBA is as quiet an environment as most of us could ever hope to live in. According to Wikipedia, 20dB is the lower limit of a very calm room. Unless you live in some kind of sound proofed bunker, then a Yate Loon or Nexus at 5V from 1m away should be inaudible. Certainly, inside a good case it would be.

So, yes, in theory your super low voltage fans are quieter, but in real life where most of us live it make absolutely no difference.

It's a bit like printing your letters at 2000DPI. Sure, in theory it looks better than 600DPI, but in real life most people don't read letters with a microscope.

...The 1048 is quite sensitive to having the impeller properly balanced and free to spin. If it gets dirt in it or is for some reason slightly off centre, it can make more noise.

You can also mod it with PTFE tape to prevent that happening. The PTFE mod means that it could potentially jam if dirt ever got in it, but in a PC that isn't an issue (it was designed for pond use with small stones etc). ...

Sorry to interrupt here, but what mod with PTFE tape are we talking about there?
Oh - and by PTFE, you mean polytetrafluoroehethelene? What we USians call "teflon"?
If this is something that can reduce vibration, I'd be glad to hear about it.
BTW (and IMO) the challenge with the small Eheim pumps is isolating the vibration they produce. I'm figuring that if I can reduce that vibration, I might not have to damp the whole case on my next build.
Thanks!
Bob

PTFE tape, as used by plumbers. I use it on some of the connections in my system as well as in the pump.

Basically you open the pump up and wrap some PTFE tape around the shaft of the impeller. Normally there is a fair bit of room for the impeller to move so that small stones can pass through the pump, but since there is no danger of that in a PC it's safe to beef the impeller shaft up and reduce movement/vibration.

A Scythe Slipstream 120mm fan rated at 800 RPM was used. Initially, it was run at full speed (12V), but it was judged to be too audible. A damping resistor was used to pull the speed of the Scythe fan down just a bit, to 680 RPM, where its noise contribution dropped to below that of the WD hard drive just above it.

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