StanTheMan:Magorn: according to the Internets an IQ score of 55 put this guy in the "Barely able to function on his own" range and only about 10 points above Chimps or Dolphins. Not only would it probably be unconstitutional to execute him, but the prosecutor's ability to get a conviction that will stand up on appeal given the lack of witnesses and evidence at this point is virtually nil. Why the hell is TX willing to take the PR hit and re-try this guy instead of realizing that he's already done 3 decades in jail and basically just spring him for time served

There's some SCOTUS judicial activism that needs to be reversed. I don't care if your IQ is 55, you murder someone with premeditation and deliberation, you get the needle. Call it equal protection.

One problem with this made-up rule is that now all murder suspects attorneys hire IQ expert witnesses (i.e., whores) to show how dumb they are.

If you can prove that someone with an IQ that low engaged in premedidation and deliberation, then yes, I agree with you. That's a pretty high bar to reach, however.

That said, the only thing that he should be touting is that his conviction was vacated and sentence commuted in preparation for a new trial that was falsified by the Texas prison system. Really, that's all that needs to be said. Unless he actually sees the inside of a courtroom for a new murder trial, which the prosecution is bound to lose based on the lack of murder weapon, 30+ year old information form witnesses assuming they are still alive, and a "confession" that was coerced, then let the guy go.

As bad as it sounds though, his quality of life might be better in prison. I can't imagine someone of his purported intelligence making it on their own, much less if they've been institutionalized and haven't had to for the last 30 years.

StanTheMan:The_Six_Fingered_Man: StanTheMan: LordJiro: StanTheMan: Fark him, the murdering scumbag was sentenced to death and should have been executed a long time ago. RTFA.

Because Texas has never sentenced an innocent man to death, right?

Except there is not even an allegation he is innocent, dipwad.

Well, he's certainly not guilty. After all, that's the result when a conviction is vacated.

Because he hid from the system for 30 years. Now let's reward that.

This guy sounds like the perfect cause celebre for libs. They can make him a civil rights icon like Tookie Williams or Mumia.

As that great "lib" H. L. Mencken once said:

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

First of all, that prosecutor's claim is horseshiat on its face, and the judge is a monumental asshole for accepting it.

That said, let's (for a moment) take it at face value. Any penal system which can be outsmarted, over three decades, by a man with an IQ of 51 has no business whatsoever incarcerating anyone, let alone executing them. But this being Texas, and you being you, I'm sure that all makes perfect 'sense' somehow.

The only thing that should be squashed is the death penalty sentence, at no point should this person ever be allowed out in public again.

His conviction was vacated. Do you not understand what that means? I'll spell it out. It means that legally he has not been found guilty of a crime. Do you know what "innocent until proven guilty" means and why we have that little rule?

StanTheMan:Magorn: according to the Internets an IQ score of 55 put this guy in the "Barely able to function on his own" range and only about 10 points above Chimps or Dolphins. Not only would it probably be unconstitutional to execute him, but the prosecutor's ability to get a conviction that will stand up on appeal given the lack of witnesses and evidence at this point is virtually nil. Why the hell is TX willing to take the PR hit and re-try this guy instead of realizing that he's already done 3 decades in jail and basically just spring him for time served

There's some SCOTUS judicial activism that needs to be reversed. I don't care if your IQ is 55, you murder someone with premeditation and deliberation, you get the needle. Call it equal protection.

One problem with this made-up rule is that now all murder suspects attorneys hire IQ expert witnesses (i.e., whores) to show how dumb they are.

It's not exactly "Judicial activism" so much as it is "an Anglo-Saxon legal tradition that we can defintively trace back at least 500 years"

Even in Blackstone's original works the formulation of the Insanity defense was: "idiots and lunatics are not chargeable for their own acts, if committed when under these incapacities"

now we have lessened that protection somewhat, but given that Blackstone is widely considered the definitive source for the English Common law explicitly embraced by the framers of the Constitution, and nearly every one of the original united states as foundation of US legal traditions, it was completely rational for the Supreme court to find that even using an "original intent" analysis the 8th amendment would forbid executing the retarded.

The only thing that should be squashed is the death penalty sentence, at no point should this person ever be allowed out in public again.

His conviction was vacated. Do you not understand what that means? I'll spell it out. It means that legally he has not been found guilty of a crime. Do you know what "innocent until proven guilty" means and why we have that little rule?

Actually he was legally found to be a borderline non functioning retardThe only thing the state did wrong was not put enough rubber padding in his cell and have his guards wear lab coats

I won't know what to think about this until we've heard from that one guy who thinks that Texas has the best judiciary in the country, a system which never gets anything wrong. I believe he has an obsession with size. You know, that guy.

Magorn: ... Not only would it probably be unconstitutional to execute him, but the prosecutor's ability to get a conviction that will stand up on appeal given the lack of witnesses and evidence at this point is virtually nil. Why the hell is TX willing to take the PR hit and re-try this guy instead of realizing that he's already done 3 decades in jail and basically just spring him for time served

There may be a financial reason.

They may want to push a retrial in order to get him to plead guilty and be released "for time served". That would likely imply (legally) he wasn't falsely imprisoned, and so he couldn't sue for compensation. But if they let him go because "oops", they might have to compensate.

Things like this desperately make me want to grant Texas the independence its yokel redneck asshats so desperately seem to crave. But then I think on it for a picosecond and realize, if they're doing this to this dude, then without oversight they're gonna do this to lots of dudes and dudettes.

So instead I formally suggest moving the capital of the US Federal Government to Hearne, Texas, which after 5 seconds on Google Maps looks to be dead center in the triangle formed by Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio. Just so the commie liberal coastal intellectuals can keep tabs on the ten-gallon bastards.

MooseUpNorth:Any penal system which can be outsmarted, over three decades, by a man with an IQ of 51 has no business whatsoever incarcerating anyone

Dude, ANY penal system can be "outsmarted" in this situation. Jails and prisons are staffed with bunches of people who take care of a ton of inmates, and all employees generally run things on autopilot.

The guy is there because paperwork sent him to prison. He'll be held at that prison until paperwork from somewhere else is sent to tell them what to do with him (transfer to another prison, release him, bring him to court for a hearing, etc.), otherwise he gets held and gets fed. Do you think there is *ANYONE* that works there that knew what was going on? The intake people had the paperwork to hold him, and never got sent anything to tell them to release him or transfer him somewhere else. The guards just kept feeding him and doing whatever else.

I mean, it's on autopilot that way. There really isn't anything to outsmart.

Magorn:according to the Internets an IQ score of 55 put this guy in the "Barely able to function on his own" range and only about 10 points above Chimps or Dolphins. Not only would it probably be unconstitutional to execute him, but the prosecutor's ability to get a conviction that will stand up on appeal given the lack of witnesses and evidence at this point is virtually nil. Why the hell is TX willing to take the PR hit and re-try this guy instead of realizing that he's already done 3 decades in jail and basically just spring him for time served

ZeroPly:StanTheMan: The_Six_Fingered_Man: StanTheMan: LordJiro: StanTheMan: Fark him, the murdering scumbag was sentenced to death and should have been executed a long time ago. RTFA.

Because Texas has never sentenced an innocent man to death, right?

Except there is not even an allegation he is innocent, dipwad.

Well, he's certainly not guilty. After all, that's the result when a conviction is vacated.

Because he hid from the system for 30 years. Now let's reward that.

This guy sounds like the perfect cause celebre for libs. They can make him a civil rights icon like Tookie Williams or Mumia.

As that great "lib" H. L. Mencken once said:

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

People have to understand that prosecutors in Texas are fundamentally evil people, as are most of the judges. You do not get to become a prosecutor or judge in a court-of-record in Texas without being someone who would make Satan shiat his pants in terror and cry for mommy. It's how the state works.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

Favorited, because Mencken.

My favorite Mencken quote: "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."

// though I just found this also: "If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner and wink your eye at some homely girl."

In California if a mentally ill person commits a violent crime and their mental illness is likely going to cause them to commit another crime they can be held at the Atascadero Mental Facility until they aren't deemed to be a threat anymore - even after their sentence has been served.

They started the program because of outrage of violent mentally I'll or handicapped people reoffending, often within days of release and often with the same MO.

If Texas has a program like that (not sure if they do) this guy would be a prime target for it.

Who would really be served by letting this guy out into the public? He has a violent history and probably can't take care of himself.

The justice system certainly dropped the ball, no doubt about that. I don't think the answer is unleashing this guy on the public.If there was even a remote likelihood that he didn't commit the crime then this would be a different story.

Dr Dreidel:scarmig: ZeroPly: As that great "lib" H. L. Mencken once said:

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

Favorited, because Mencken.

My favorite Mencken quote: "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."

// though I just found this also: "If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner and wink your eye at some homely girl."

When I see a story like this, I go straight to "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."

Magorn:and further noted the guy didn't seem to mind being locked up. IN PRISON. FOR 30 YEARS, so no harm, no foul... "there is no evidence that Hartfield has suffered any anxiety relating to his pretrial detention."

My grandmother worked with the mentally disabled. They're generally much better in a highly structured environment than 'normal' people. If you figure that he doesn't associate with the excessively violent prisoners,

StanTheMan:There's some SCOTUS judicial activism that needs to be reversed. I don't care if your IQ is 55, you murder someone with premeditation and deliberation, you get the needle. Call it equal protection.

I don't care either, but I question the ability for somebody with an IQ of 55 to premeditate anything.

As for his 'deserving the needle', while I don't know about his case, I DO know that the late '70s through '80s were the high point of trial misconduct with police and prosecutors making up evidence, hiding evidence, etc... Remember the guy who just got out after 25 years when he was in Disney World when the murder happened in NY?

Kooj:They may want to push a retrial in order to get him to plead guilty and be released "for time served". That would likely imply (legally) he wasn't falsely imprisoned, and so he couldn't sue for compensation. But if they let him go because "oops", they might have to compensate.

An interesting theory. On the other hand you'd have to balance the cost of a murder trial against any settlements, because you KNOW that the state will have to pick up everything, including the defense. On the other hand, if he was offered a plea-bargain for 2nd degree murder with a sentence of 'time served', it'd be stupid NOT to take it.

On the other hand, he might be able to get around $6M for false imprisonment, so there's that.

Dr Dreidel:scarmig: ZeroPly: As that great "lib" H. L. Mencken once said:

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

Favorited, because Mencken.

My favorite Mencken quote: "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."

// though I just found this also: "If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner and wink your eye at some homely girl."

Then there's:

I admit freely enough that, by careful breeding, supervision of environment and education, extending over many generations, it might be possible to make an appreciable improvement in the stock of the American negro, for example, but I must maintain that this enterprise would be a ridiculous waste of energy, for there is a high-caste white stock ready at hand, and it is inconceivable that the negro stock, however carefully it might be nurtured, could ever even remotely approach it. The educated negro of today is a failure, not because he meets insuperable difficulties in life, but because he is a negro. He is, in brief, a low-caste man, to the manner born, and he will remain inert and inefficient until fifty generations of him have lived in civilization. And even then, the superior white race will be fifty generations ahead of him.