Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):With the success that the return of the 6 series has had, I wonder, should BMW introduce a new 8 series?

I don't see a reason for it. The 6 Series already crosses $100k in competition with the Mercedes SL and there are rumors of an upcoming sports car (probably a hybrid) that is supposed to be something of a spiritual successor to the M1. Depending on what that car ends up being, what BMW might need is a smaller two or four seat car to compete with the Aston Martin Vantage, Porsche 911, and Mercedes SLS AMG.

For what it's worth, grassroots racer Bill Caswell wrote a scathing piece about what BMW's M division has become: a soft brand for wannabes rather and still trading on a racing heritage while abandoning motorsports to a large degree.

I have to agree with BMI727. The 8 Series did not take off well enough for BMW to keep it. I personally liked the look of it. Never drove one though. The interior controls were also a little substandard for BMW.

The 6 series coupe is a beautiful car and I'd have one if I could afford it!

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 2):The 8 Series did not take off well enough for BMW to keep it

Part of that can be attributed to bad timing.

It's worth noting that the 6 Series and 8 Series never coexisted together (the 6 ended production in 1989, which was the year the 8 Series concept was shown), although the 8 Series wasn't really supposed to be a 6 Series successor.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):For what it's worth, grassroots racer Bill Caswell wrote a scathing piece about what BMW's M division has become: a soft brand for wannabes rather and still trading on a racing heritage while abandoning motorsports to a large degree.

He's a couple decades late if he thinks that complaining will matter. The E30 was the last real M car effort with a real tie to motorsport (by design anyway).

The E36 might have been a fantastic chassis (and the E46 and E92 are great fun), but these cars have been (for about 20 years now) simply efforts at making a daily driver (or a daily driveable) car as good as it can be.

That modern M cars are too soft, too heavy, or too civilized for some tastes is a fair point to make. However, I don't think that most drivers want a real track car for the street. I freely admit that the Lime Rock M3 that so bothers this author is stupid (IMO). However, discrediting the entire lot of M cars because they aren't track machines is equally stupid.

Most track cars are barely streetable (if at all). If one is so hell bent on a track machine, they are free to buy an M3 (new, used, or salvaged), strip it, and make a real track car out of the chassis. They'd probably end up with a fantastic vehicle. Holding the increasingly growing list of luxury features and NVH standards as a point against a road car is absolutely ridiculous. The E30 had a stereo, leather seats, air conditioning, and a trip computer (pretty nice by mid 1980s standards).

Next to a 3.0 CSL, the E30 might be the most coveted classic BMW from a driver's perspective. However, even the E30 was built to be a liveable road car.

A month ago they said 2013 for the i3, 2014 for the i8. Given the investment they have made in SGL Carbon, I highly doubt that they'll be vaporware. In fact the i3 will be probably be the first true electic vehicle from a major manufacturer, built from the ground up to be an electric vehicle. They'll be mighty expensive compared to a Diesel, but that's just the reality of electric vehicles right there. Battery technology is where it is.

I've been seeing advertising for the i concept for months on the web and even paper magazines (not about cars), something I don't really understand when you don't have anything to sell, but if they scrap it to boot !

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):For what it's worth, grassroots racer Bill Caswell wrote a scathing piece about what BMW's M division has become: a soft brand for wannabes rather and still trading on a racing heritage while abandoning motorsports to a large degree.

That article is off-base in a huge way (not surprising for Jalopnik). One of his biggest beefs is that the M division builds dedicated race cars, then builds something completely different to sell to the public. Well, a quick look at all the other cars competing in the ALMS would show you that Porsche, Ferrari, Chevy and the others unabashedly do exactly the same thing; where's the anger over that? Put simply, emissions and safety regulations have put an end to slapping a VIN on a race car and selling it to the public. Beyond that, who in their right mind would buy a full-out race car to use on the road? Even a car with only the slightest bit of motorsports pretensions can be grating on the nerves; ask me how much better my E46 330ci is compared to the E46 M3 I owned was in everyday use (answer: a lot). The market for factory-built club racers is, for lack of a better way to put it, miniscule. Porsche only builds a few hundred 911 GT3s per year, and they absolutely dominate this market.

Beyond that, I don't really fault BMW for the X5 M and X6 M; look at their competitors from Porsche, JLR and to a lesser extent, Jeep, and you'll see that there is definitely a market for a high-performance SUV. Having driven an X5 M, I can tell you that they did a lot more than just strap in a bigger engine and roll it in M-badges - that thing drives better than just about any car on the road, let alone any SUV.

There seems to be a real rift right now within the community of BMW enthusiasts. There are two different groups feuding it out right now; there's the "old school", who believe that any BMW worth owning should have a chassis code lower than E36, and sneer with absolute contempt at anything built later than that. On the other hand, there are the rest of us, who don't think that everything BMW made after 1998 is necessarily poser trash and in fact is rather quite good. What really grates me about the "old school", and E30 owners in particular, is that they feel they have the monopoly everything that is good about the BMW experience - yes, the E30 is a good car that really set the stage for BMW, but to look down at everyone else as being posers is a bit rich, especially when you consider that the quintessential 1980s "yuppie car" was the E30 BMW.

I can't really call the Twizy a car. It's a glorified scooter and will never be used in the same way as normal cars. Nissan Leaf would probably be a better example.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 13):ask me how much better my E46 330ci is compared to the E46 M3 I owned was in everyday use (answer: a lot).

What's the difference exactly? Fuel consumption? Or dignity?

I was watching an old Top Gear clip of the BMW M3 CSL E46: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLNtmLQ2Rtw and that sound is something there isn't anymore. It's such a shame BMW did away with that naturally aspirated straight 6, in my opinion those will always be more drivable than the newer turbocharged engines and I've driven both (not the M3 straight 6 though).

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):An uncle of mine had a 850i for a time, bright red. Man, that was a beautiful car ! And really comfortable at high speed on the twisty and full of potholes freeways of northern Italy.

I noticed that too, watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDnp3tsTzpM If ever there is a relaxed way of driving over 155mph/250kmh average, it's this way. Again, with a big natural engines, I've a sweet spot for them.

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 8):I wish they did build one, I could afford it, I would buy one.

How come? In my opinion all the X models are hideous to look at and not much more useful than the normal models. What is the appeal (serious question)?

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 14):I can't really call the Twizy a car. It's a glorified scooter and will never be used in the same way as normal cars. Nissan Leaf would probably be a better example.

There is a Twizy parked in front of my house (not mine), it takes a regular parking spot :p Can't really be used like a scooter in traffic either. And I would probably not fit in the back seat. Also, the lack of windows (even doors are an option) is a little bit annoying.

The leaf uses an existing platform/chassis (although it looks heavily modified), that's why I didn't mention it, but in fact I'm not sure the Zoé will not be in the same case, even if Renault claims it isn't so. Renault and Nissan are on the same boat anyway (and in my opinion in trouble, as I don't see electric only cars as practical enough for now).

New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

What I meant is that you are never going to replace your normal car with a Twizzy. Bright marketing guys in offices with white chairs and tables will tell you you will, but I don't see it happening. It's not flexibke at all and in most cases would be used as extra transport solution, next to a car, in which case the flexibility turns into an extra parking space and more acquisition cost (not even mentioning the environment).

Renault Nissan is doing quite well though, better than most manufacturers, and its not always bad to be an early adopter, even though I don't think batteries will be the solution.

It was originally in Automobile and I cannot find it but the other media picked up on it. I am not sure of the exact details about delay dates. Later articles on the same site talked as if it was a done deal according to their source. i thought it all a bit cocky but we shall see... it seems from the surface that BMW is floundering here, walking from the 8 month old PSA/Renault electric alliance last week into the Toyota electric/hybrid alliance.

BMW denies it's about to pull the plug on EV plan

Automotive News -- July 2, 2012 - 12:01 am ET

Automobile magazine reported that "the whole enterprise is skating on dangerously thin ice," and that BMW top management is considering an exit strategy.

I was watching an old Top Gear clip of the BMW M3 CSL E46: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLNtmLQ2Rtw and that sound is something there isn't anymore. It's such a shame BMW did away with that naturally aspirated straight 6, in my opinion those will always be more drivable than the newer turbocharged engines and I've driven both (not the M3 straight 6 though).

The M3 was a money pit, plain and simple. It would be reasonable if I drove it as a weekend/summer toy, but everyday was getting expensive. Fuel consumption was certainly part of it (I averaged 11.2 L/100 km in the M3, whereas the 330ci does 8.3 L/100 km in exactly the same conditions), but the killer is maintenance in the M3. All the wear items (brakes, suspension, etc) are between two and five times more expensive than for the 330, and generally need to be changed more often. I would go through a set of rear tires every year and fronts every two years (Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s), with a set of rears running about $1000 installed, and all four at $1900 installed. Winter tires were expensive as all get out too, but one set lasted me for the four years I owned the car. Routine service was expensive too; an oil change in the 330 cost me $70 in parts, while in the M3 it ran $125. Then of course there was the valve adjustments (not terribly expensive, but very tedious), in addition to all the other foibles of owning an E46 that add up to a fairly expensive car to maintain.

Even beyond the cost of running the M3, it really wasn't well suited to commuting. The suspension is really hard, and the low-profile tires make an incredible racket at highway speed. The engine is pretty highly strung, so stop-and-go traffic is a bit of a chore. I will say this much about the M3, though; on the right road, it was the most fun you could possibly imagine - short of a Porsche or a supercar, you won't find a faster, better handling car out there. If you commute on Mullholland Drive every day, it would be a great car to have as a daily driver. If you commute on crappy highways like everybody else, it really isn't in its element.

As for the turbo-I6s, I replaced the M3 with a brand-new 135i. I actually found I liked the character of the turbo engine far more than the M3's engine; the performance was far more accessible in the 135 than in the M3, and damned if it wasn't just as fast (or even faster) in nearly every situation. Sure, it doesn't have that sound, but I can compromise on that if it gave me that kind of performance.

So, why do I drive an E46 330ci instead of the 135i? A number of reasons, actually. First, I got the 135 for a screaming deal; I bought the car in the US for the equivalent of CDN$33k at the very end of 2007, and I was able to sell it here in Canada for just over $29k last year. Second, I had real problems with both the wastegates and the high-pressure fuel pump in that car; I had to replace the wastegates once and the HPFP twice in my three and a half years of ownership. Even though the HPFP is under what is essentially a lifetime warranty now, I didn't really want to have to deal with that again. Beyond that, while I loved the character of the engine, I grew to dislike how the car drove; I can't quite put my finger on one thing exactly, but the 135 (and the 1-Series in general) just didn't seem to feel right. Finally, I had a good real estate opportunity come my way last year, and downgrading allowed me to go from just barely being able to afford the move to being quite comfortable financially.

I was just shopping for an E36 M3 today as a matter of fact. Had a little bit of rust, which I didn't see on the pictures, so I think I'm going to pursue the 1992 Mercedes 500E instead.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 18):As for the turbo-I6s, I replaced the M3 with a brand-new 135i. I actually found I liked the character of the turbo engine far more than the M3's engine; the performance was far more accessible in the 135 than in the M3, and damned if it wasn't just as fast (or even faster) in nearly every situation. Sure, it doesn't have that sound, but I can compromise on that if it gave me that kind of performance.

That was actually one of the points Caswell made (though it might have been one of his follow on comments). He made the point that when BMW did make a wonderful, light car for enthusiasts in the 1M, they made it a very limited production run (with correspondingly high markups), likely to protect their country club cruiser M3.

The 1M is a wonderful car, but it's just a shame that there are so few of them.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 13):Beyond that, I don't really fault BMW for the X5 M and X6 M; look at their competitors from Porsche, JLR and to a lesser extent, Jeep, and you'll see that there is definitely a market for a high-performance SUV.

I don't. If you need an SUV, it might as well be fast.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 13): There are two different groups feuding it out right now; there's the "old school", who believe that any BMW worth owning should have a chassis code lower than E36, and sneer with absolute contempt at anything built later than that.

The Porsche community has the same deal with people who don't believe anything with a front or water cooled engine isn't a real Porsche.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):That was actually one of the points Caswell made (though it might have been one of his follow on comments). He made the point that when BMW did make a wonderful, light car for enthusiasts in the 1M, they made it a very limited production run (with correspondingly high markups), likely to protect their country club cruiser M3.

The E9x M3 is absolutely NOT a country club cruiser. Sure, it's a bit more refined than the previous generations, but believe me, it is incredibly good to drive hard - better than any M3 before it, and that V8 engine - . Just wait until they become affordable to average enthusiasts...that tone will change dramatically, just like it did with the E36 M3 (although it will never be looked on as fondly as the others) and the E46 M3.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):The Porsche community has the same deal with people who don't believe anything with a front or water cooled engine isn't a real Porsche.

More like 911 owners sneering at anything other than a 911. Everyone knows that 356s are the only real Porsches

As I understand it, the 8-series was a "Halo" car for BMW, just like the NSX was for Acura/Honda. It was never intended to make any real money, it was just intended to showcase new technology.

That bring said, the 8-series was always one of those cars that "if I ever had the money...." The other is the Q45, and I am lucky to own two of them.

I VIVIDLY remember a sight -- back in the early 1990s, on Interstate-10, near my place of residence, I was in a traffic jam, and when I reached the two cars that had caused the traffic backup, I realized that they were two shiny black 850is, one that had rear-ended the other, both cars were almost totalled.
I could have cried... Evidently they were racing each other, and one zigged when the other should have zagged.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):I'm not sure how many of them actually get driven hard.

Not many of them yet (but there are a lot that are, believe me). Mark my words, half way through the F30 M3's production run, enthusiasts will start getting their hands on E9x M3s in large numbers and will drive them like they were intended. As I said in my previous post, they did the same with both the E36 and E46 M3s.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):My issue with the E92 is that the coupe weighs 3,700 lbs which is 300 lbs. over the E46. I'd save the money and 300 lbs.

You don't notice the extra weight in the E9x. The extra horsepower and torque see to that and the suspension setup makes the car actually feel lighter and more nimble than the E46 M3 does.

Well you won't see an 8 series but you might see a Grand Sport version of the next 7 series, which will be a large 4 door coupe like the 6 series 4 door. BMW are also looking into the X7 again, there's big profits in SUV's, now that the Range Rover is going further upmarket, Bentley is building an SUV BMW see's a place for an upmarket X7, there's a big discussion about this on germancarforum.com

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):He made the point that when BMW did make a wonderful, light car for enthusiasts in the 1M, they made it a very limited production run (with correspondingly high markups), likely to protect their country club cruiser M3.

The 1M is a wonderful car, but it's just a shame that there are so few of them.

The 1M is not a limited production car - it is still being made and sold. Production will cease later this year only because the 1er Coupé will be replaced by its successor - which will very likely see a 1M a few years down the line.

Back on topic, if they do build another 8 (besides the i8, which I am not a fan of thus far), I'll have one in white, please, to park next to the one we already have and love.

That said, I don't see it happening. Rather, if they go for a new halo car (other than the aforementioned i8), I think it will be something along the lines of the M1 concept that came out a few years ago.

There's a nice shape in there somewhere. The design is just too busy, but hopefully they'll clean it up before it hits production.

For what it's worth, I almost did stop to look at a 840Ci yesterday, but didn't because it wasn't in the greatest condition (fog lights don't work apparently) and was nearly $10,000 although it did have a Dinan suspension kit.

I'm not sure. I never heard about any significant differences between the European and US models and as far as I can tell the specs are basically the same. Considering the sales prices of 1Ms over here, it's probably money well spent to do the paperwork and maybe change some lights.

BMW has the 6-series now which is as capable as the 8-series was. I dont see the reason why they should build a more exclusive sportscar. BMW is not Ferrari or Porsche. Imho the 6-series Gran Coupé just launching these days is the most beautiful car BMW ever built.

Quoting racko (Reply 31):The reason BMWs are "barges" is pretty simple: This can happen to you and you live another another day. Dead people rarely buy cars.

A friend of mine recently survived an accident looking worse than this. The police couldnt believe he survived. He drove a VW and afterwards wrote a letter to the engineers to thank them for building such a strong car. Nowadays cars are so much better in this respect than 20 years ago.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):I'm not sure. I never heard about any significant differences between the European and US models and as far as I can tell the specs are basically the same. Considering the sales prices of 1Ms over here, it's probably money well spent to do the paperwork and maybe change some lights.

Might take me 20 years to get that money though.

Well, with stringent, manufacturer--lobbied grey inport regulations in the US, they'd probably make life difficult.

Well, if you want to survive, the car better be not that strong, on the contrary it must absorb the impact by deforming greatly. An uncle of mine was in an accident recently with my cousins in a Citroën C3 Picasso, not that quick, he managed to stop without hitting the car in front, however the car behind hit them. The C3 ended up sandwiched, flat at the front and at the back, but no injuries.

New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams