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And you ladies, or gents, who have surgeries or botox to make yourself look younger--was it from shame? Were you embarrassed to be seen in public pre-transformation? Did you have low self-esteem before the procedure?

Nope, in fact, quite the opposite which is probably why I have the procedures and use the enhancement products. I liked the way I looked when I was 21, 35, and even 40. Just before my 45th b'day, I could see the eyelids starting to droop, and people would tell me I looked tired even when I had had plenty of rest. I decided to have something done.

Since then, I periodically have a little injection, or a nip or tuck. My self esteem doesn't come from the way I look, but I do enjoy having a nice appearance where age doesn't play a factor. My worst scenario is the day someone says, "She looks good for her age". I don't want to look good for my age, I just want to look good.

Oh , helloooooo!!! If I had the money, I would so totally have some plastic surgery!Nose job, tummy tuck, breast lift, eyelid lift...You say the media is telling us that we should look a certain way, but I feel you are doing the same thing. We HAVE to enjoy our wrinkles and sags and bags. Why? And why is it wrong if we want to improve our looks?

My friends who have had work done did not do it to please anyone but themselves. When I look in the mirror and am unhappy with the girls, I want them looking up again. Not for a man, but because *I* want them to. I mean, I think it's great that so many of you are perfectly fine with how age is affecting you, but I think it's very judgemental to look down on those of us who have had or want to have some cosmetic enhancement.

I can appreciate the aging process in others. I can see the beauty in others. I don't think any less of them if they let it be or have a little help.

I've seen the ad you're talking about, and I don't blame the woman for being embarrassed by her wrinkles. That is one hideous face, ravaged prematurely by the hand of time. Why not fix it if she is unhappy with it? (And on the same note, he)

Let me tell you, in absolute honesty and bluntness. I could be living on an island all by myself with no hope of ever seeing another living soul, and I would still want to have perky tits again. It has nothing to do with my self-esteem, because I love myself. (And often.) It's all about me. Me me me me me.

Women don't go to groups in order to have negative self-images validated and reinforced as good; they go to rid themselves of negativity about themselves and to get rid of those feelings of self loathing. Ads such as the one I spoke of pander to these feelings.

Different type of group Gwen. I wasn't speaking of therapy. A focus group is when women are brought together to discuss their feelings and reactions about a product (or in this case, a procedure).

Thee are two primary groups of women. For one such group, some of the very distinct feelings are of shame, embarrassment and disgust with how they look. Another subgroup of women are very confident and see maintaining their outsides much the same as many of us would view exercise - a good thing to do in order to look your best.

Obviously, this type of message pushes your buttons. It is picking directly up on negative feelings some women do have and essentially saying "if you are embarrassed or ashamed about this - do something about it". I rather suspect they wouldn't make much money if they shamed them for feeling ashamed. *grins* I know that isn't your point.

There are advertisers who have taken on body image and what it is to be a woman... the Dove campaign for real beauty and the Reebok women athlete campaign springs immediately to mind.

Different type of group Gwen. I wasn't speaking of therapy. A focus group is when women are brought together to discuss their feelings and reactions about a product (or in this case, a procedure).

Ah, having never been to such a group, I mistook the meaning, but that doesn't change my opinion! These women are still having feelings of shame and embarrassment over things which should cause them NO shame. And in reality, they are seeking therapy for their problems, just a different type of therapy.

But you do touch on something that is key to what I am saying and what those who are defensive about their procedures do not seem to understand: I stated I understand the desire to look better, but to be ashamed of a natural process over which one has no control (outside of medical procedures) is a false shame.

Obviously, this type of message pushes your buttons.

The desire to look better doesn't push my buttons--I sometimes change clothes five times before leaving the house and won't wear sweats to the store. I am vain and I am the first one to admit it.

What pushes my buttons is the media's exploitation of women's insecurities and, again, the overt implication that we should be ashamed of aging. Women buy into it and it feeds their feelings of inadequacies.

For example, take hair. I have good hair--I was born with it. I take extremely good care of it. If my hair thinned, I would use Rogaine or whatever to help it along. BUT if I had been born with thin hair, why be ashamed?

If I had bad hair, should I go to extreme lengths to "fix" it? Inject toxins into my body, etc, hair transplants? I might get a wig, but I would also get the best hair-cut I could and still take good care of what I did have.

Shame means a feeling of inadequacy, an assumption of guilt . . . no one is inadequate or guilty because he/she ages.

You don't have to buy into it. However, you do buy into other means of improving yourself, but you appear to take the stance "If I do it, it's ok and not media-induced cosmetics".

I sometimes change clothes five times before leaving the house and won't wear sweats to the store. I am vain and I am the first one to admit it. What pushes my buttons is the media's exploitation of women's insecurities and, again, the overt implication that we should be ashamed of aging. Women buy into it and it feeds their feelings of inadequacies.

SOME women and men buy into it.

For example, take hair. I have good hair--I was born with it. I take extremely good care of it. If my hair thinned, I would use Rogaine or whatever to help it along. BUT if I had been born with thin hair, why be ashamed?

Why is it ok for you to do that because it makes you feel better, but you don't buy into someone else having injections or cosmetic surgery to make them feel better? It's a vast and ever-changing world out there. Whether you believe it or not, people dohave cosmetic enhancements for themselves and purely for their own self-gratification. It's 2009, not 1959. Btw...Do you post all of those cleavage and leg shots because you like to look at them, or because you think a prospective mate would like them?

Do you post all of those cleavage and leg shots because you like to look at them, or because you think a prospective mate would like them?

A bit of a jab I think..........?And, one of the reasons I don't post a pic. I don't want the females making catty remarks and I don't want the fellas to get into a lather.........Anyone know of a good knee cream? The skin on mine is starting to sag......Now that, I'd like to do something about.

you do buy into other means of improving yourself, but you appear to take the stance "If I do it, it's ok and not media-induced cosmetics".

I have expounded on my point several times: If a person feels ASHAMED for a natural occurring process, why does the SHAME exist? Why would a person be ASHAMED of wrinkles?

If you had bothered to read and attempt to understand what I have written instead of being overly defensive, you would see where I have iterated and reiterated my understanding of why people want to look better, but I do NOT understand the SHAME part of it.

Why is it ok for you to do that because it makes you feel better, but you don't buy into someone else having injections or cosmetic surgery to make them feel better?

Please point out to me where I have condemned those who have surgeries to improve the way they look? I did point out that some methods women use to improve their looks actually works against them, but I don't see where I issued a blanket condemnation. I asked people HOW FAR they would go to look younger.

Btw... Do you post all of those cleavage and leg shots because you like to look at them, or because you think a prospective mate would like them?

Red herring, but I'll answer it anyway. I post them in order to attract attention. I have tried various shots for my primary picture, and the "leg" shot gets more emails.

I don't see much of a difference in saying that people get cosmetic help for the opposite sex vs posting sexy pics for the opposite sex.

You were the one who said that the women whom you know get cosmetic surgery for themselves and I said I don't buy into it. It gives them a sense of attractiveness, and they want to look attractive not only for self gratification, but to attract the opposite sex.

I want to attract the opposite sex, as well; it's why I am on a dating site.

What is it to you why people choose plastic surgery as a self-improvement option, or botox, or hair dye or whatever it is you're upset about?Why is it that your methods of "attracting the opposite sex" are ok, but what others do aren't?And why is it that you're allowed to be on the defensive but no one else?And why is it that when people do anwer your question, you question their integrity?Are you a mind reader?News flash: we're all different (thank goodness). And what people choose to spend their money on is none of your business. To assume everyone except yourself is sucked in by advertising is a little over-the-top, don't you think?

You know something? My beauty secrets are eye of newt, applied during a full moon. I also occasionally dabble with hemlock, but judiciously. After all, I don't want to look 13. And strangers run across busy roads to tell me how fabuloso I am. At least they did yesterday. Or it might have been to watch me being arrested. I forget.

Kiddo we are old ... hopefully the wrinkles we get are happy ones... i do not use nothing ... well sometimes RACHEL PERRY... but not often... I have not changed ... I am still ME... even if people hate me... I am ME... nothing less nothing more...As for me people think I am a lot younger when they see me in person... I thank them...and smile... It does not matter at all...

gwendolyn2008 , I find you being very defensive and a little flip-floppy on the whole issue. Your accusation that I did not read nor understand this thread was a bit flippant and beneath you. Meow.

I don't KNOW why the shame exists!! Stop yelling at me I merely was putting my 2 cents worth in as I am allowed 5 posts per day and damnit I'm going to use them. I am sorry you don't think that people have cosmetic enhancements to make themselves happy. I'm sorry you think everyone does it for the attention from someone else. But guess what? It happens!!

Now I will go back to the Sex & Dating threads as they don't get so p*ssy and self righteous...Unless it's a blow job thread. The sparks fly on those.

Enjoy your naturally aging womanhood. I am going to continue to save up so I can afford to hoist the girls back into proper position....BECAUSE I LIKE LOOKING AT MY BOOBS!!!

How far will YOU go to look young? Will you lie about your age, use botox, get a facelift?

None of those things would make me look young. I didn't even look young when I was young. The only possible thing that might have made me look younger at some point would have been those puffy lip injection things (but all over my face to plump out its harsh angles). Even then, I'd have likely just looked the same age, but puffy.

This is as far as I will go to look better (in my opinion), though: hair products such as mousse to give at least a little body to my fine, thin hair; skin moisturizers; exercise.

Cosmetic procedures have made miraculous strides. Unless it is an 80 yr. old woman who has gone too far with it, most people have no idea when someone has enhanced their procedures. The vast majority of us don't look like plastic or rubber Barbie dolls.

I actually never thought at that. Besides being distrustful of the long-term effects of the Botox/dermabrasion type things (how long have they been around? 20 years or so? I keep thinking this is about the time the pioneer users' faces are going to start sliding off or turning blue or something), I only know a couple of people who have TOLD me they had facelifts. They're both NOT good testimonials for the procedure. But maybe I see a dozen great-looking people every day who also had it done. How would I know, if it worked well?

I like what Dr. Phil says about "Right fighting". "Do you want to be Right... or Happy"?

Now.... if you are really so concerned about the media's untruths in advertising..... whay arn't you griping about a Bud Light commercial??!! Har!

Thjis was all I wanted to write, but this damned site won't allow me to post messages this short. I see most of the rest of you can post one liners all day. ??? For some reason I am being persecuted, I guess... Hmmmmmmmm? Will it post now?

NOPE! Still not enough. What the hey!!?? this is very irritating. Enough to get me off here again.

gwendolyn2008 your post actually came up in a discussion we had Friday evening during dinner. I was reminded of someone we knew who had to go to work when she was a young woman, and the jobs were outside pre sunscreen.

So having had to work to help support her family since age 14 she had sun damage skin. So getting a face lift and repairing damage wasn't simply vanity. In fact I cry just thinking about her. She takes very good care of her skin. And she has always been health and fitness mode. Its done wonder to her mental health.

And I had a breast reduction and due to issues I wont go into here will gladly have more surgery this year if I choose to do so. Its not vanity surgery.

Beth, I agree. I think there are probably a lot of reasons for someone to have plastic surgery outside of vanity. Someone who has lost a lot of weight and has saggy skin comes to mind. Sure, saggy skin is not attractive, but I would imagine it is also not comfortable. For example, if you wanted a pair jeans, but couldn't get a good fit because of lot of belly skin sagging around the waist? Women who have had breast cancer often get implants, not vanity, it just makes them feel better for themselves.

I dont think the media is playing on people being ashamed of how they look, they are acknowledging the fact that SOME people MAY be ashamed...and for them there is help...is it an attempt to put money in their own pockets...Yes it is, does it work...yes it does...

and once that person has had whatever procedure done they feel they needed it makes them happy...until they log on her with their new headlights readjusted and see themselves being racked over the coals cause their genetics werent a match for someone elses...

Now it is said that the people having this done is so they feel better about themselves so they attract more attention from members of the opposite sex and it has been said others are posting various body parts to draw the attention of members of the opposite sex...I wonder where the real shame in all this lies....

Live and let live...unless someone is asking you to pay for it

dang got to find that old cleavage shot and put it back up...this thread makes me feel like I am slacking in attention now.