On 2002-10-02 17:35, fokiten wrote:
I have not read all the posts (wow) yet i am interested in understanding what you all are talking about, Whats an AOA for that matter where can I go (don't get cute) to get definions? for all the foil/tube speak acronims?

On 2002-10-02 20:25, mmunzer wrote:
You forget that the LEI/ARC shape has a huge amount of drag from the tips which contribute absolutely zero to lift, power, speed, etc. Their only attribute is to slow the kite down by increasing drag.

That is one of the reasons, I think there is so much future in flat foils like the flysurfers. More power and faster.

Marc
GoExtreme.dk

It's a close run, Bridledrag on flat foils vs tipdrag in sleds.

On buggykites, the Hi-Arc has a better L/D ratio than the best bridled foil...

Dear Arcsrule and everyone that rides foil kites, yes some of my posts seem harsh, but if you have a look they are posted to people who also have interests financially in the success of their foil kites and usually those are the people that I am after. I don't like it at all when someone posts something that goes like this" it is the best kite in the world...I can fly upwind for 500 miles and get 500 feet in the air. PS you can get one of these at http://www.myshop.com." Those posts piss me off. We don't get any fact from them and all they do is negative to the whole forum theory. I have not tried to sell anything through the forums and I am sure if you look at where my harsh posts are you will see exactly what I am talking about.( go on now go look.) Also I am sure you will find that I post regularly to beginners looking for help regardless of what they ride. Also if you look at anything I post I never reccomend any particular brand of kite but suggest trying them all and finding the right one for you before buying. Sure sometimes I rip on foils but usualy only as adamantly as someone else is ripping on LEIS. A positive and unbiassed post directed at providing accurate informatiom on any kite has my total support, even though those kites are much more my direct competition than foils, but replying to a newbie looking for a new kite with a http://www.myshop.com posting on the forum to me is a bad way to sell a kite. Its like sending Grandma to a Chevy deallership to buy a Ford ( woops or I guess to a Mercedes deallership to buy a Porsche For the Europeans).
Of course as I always say thats just my opinion. Look at the first page of this post and see where my "harsh " posting was put. It is exactly why my posts ( sometimes ) are harsh. The guy telling someone why foils are better is directly involved in selling them. HMMMM I belive he's unbiassed.
Aloha Royce.

The Foil / LEI debate continues, but I think its more of a I ride an inflatable because everyone else dose syndrome.

I personally ride Foils because I'm from a kiting background, but for someone who has no idea about kites what choice do they really have? They have a lesson which will most probably be on a LEI, most people where they ride will be on LEI's so they follow and ride a LEI.

I'm regularly the odd one where I fly. I get people coming up to me all the time asking what the hell is that I'm flying, almost as if its a UFO attached to my harness.

A LEI rider had a go of my Flysurfer a few months back and was very impressed with it. His biggest comment was its ease of use and forgiveness in gusts. I think with the new development of foils such as the Psycho etc with true AOA will change the opinions of a few, but I guess only time will tell. I think people need to open up their minds a little and just ride what makes them have the most FUN, that's what its all about isn't it???

While shooting upwind on bullshit
Be careful or you may slip
You see water is full with each brand of bull
And people who ought to but wonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t quit
Being one of the many with opinions o plenty
I say ride what you will
To hell with this swill
Fokiten is out
ThatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s my penny

I don't want to say which design is better because I haven't really decided yet, but one thing I repeatably keep hearing about foils is that they are impossible to relaunch off the water.

With the well-designed new foil kites that statement is completely false. My flysurfer warrior 16.5 is super easy to relaunch. Just unhook and throw the bar away and the kite instantly relaunches backwards and rights itself. Then hook in sheet out and you are off.

There is no tugging on lines, swimming or superman lunges struggling to get the kite to roll over as with tube kites (especially high AR ones). All you have to do is unhook and drop the bar. I have had my flysurfer relaunch no problem after 10-15 minutes sitting on the water in waves around 1 meter. The few cups that get into the kite during this time quickly drain out the trailing edge as the kite launches.

Right now I am pretty certian that large foil kites are superior to large tube kites in light air. The big tube kites that I have tried tended to hindenburg in the lulls and were not water relaunchable within their wind range. The warrior 16.5 is light enough to stay up in the lulls and will water relaunch no problem in around 8 knots.

Having said that, my experience has been that newer tube kites I have tried are easier to jump and may have better hang time (than the warrior). They also seem to be better suited to high wind conditions, though I really haven't tried any of the newer foils in the small sizes (have some old ones though).

Sure there are trade-offs but each style has its advantages and both of them seem to be getting better and better these last couple of years.

The reality is...... Whatever you own and fly you think is the best, true or not, whatever, who cares, get over it, this debate will probably go on forever. PLK F-ARCs are the biggest jumpers (but not user friendly if you ditch your kite), G-ARCs have the biggest windrange, and standard ARCs relaunch well, but what do I know, I fly SLINGSHOT...Ha Ha, Whatever you get you'll enjoy, and don't let others tell you different.
Hangloose, Tim.