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Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising in alignment unfortunately with modern ways of doing things.

The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than.

Modern Aiki?

Promotion.......

Or passive aggression?

The divide in modern aikido is between those who see it as a rather precise science with ancient roots and long-known methods; and those who believe that aikido is a very vague and general practice of moving circularly for some very unclear and rather dubious reasons.

Words

Those in the "science" cohort use Morihei Ueshiba's recorded words and exact translations to understand what he "talked about".

Those in the "general art" group simply supply their own definitions for very general translations of O Sensei's words so that talk of the kami of yin and yang simply become "gods" rather than principles and from that all kinds of idiosyncratic forms of semi-religious practices replace O Sensei's aikido.

Deeds

Those in the science cohort believe that the "unusual power" displayed by Morihei Ueshiba results from specific internal training methods described in correct translations of his words and that his "unusual power" can be replicated by those who follow his internal training methods. They believe that it is the quality of the body, developed through these methods, that causes the attacker to lose balance and control on contact with the aiki man's body, enabling the aiki man to generate techniques spontaneously to exploit the attacker's unbalance. And make no mistake, I've met women who can do this a lot better than I can.

Those in the "general art" group believe that Morihei Ueshiba was a very religious man whose words were never understood and never can be understood; that his "unusual power" was and remains inexplicable and unapproachable by anyone not so dedicated to his strange religion. They believe that any "body" of any type can produce aiki by moving in evasive circular movements tailored to the attacker's movement--that aiki depends on the attacker's movement rather than on the aiki man's internal organization and balance.

RESULTS OF EACH APPROACH

The scientific cohort develops internal skills along with fighting techniques and lives as Morihei Ueshiba did, welcoming others to test them. The scientific side believes that physical ability against serious physical force is the baseline of truth within aikido and all of budo. To this group, wearing a black belt implies serious interest in physical research with serious physical forces at play--in balanced and focused attacks and instant and unquestionably effective aikido technique.

The "general art" group believes that the black belt is symbolic of some vague idea of honor and commitment. In aikido, it also carries a patina of "spirituality" as general and intangible as the purpose of aikido itself. Any suggestion that one physically "test" his or her techniques or understanding of principles is perceived and denounced as "bullying" or "competition" and the response is generally to eject the offender from the dojo and/or engage in passive-aggressive denunciations.

THE BALANCE

Graham here has called the "scientific" cohort "modern aikido" though it goes directly to the roots of OLD aikido, while Graham clearly present something "new upon the earth" with his Golden Center videos.

Wearing a rasta hat with a hakama and calling traditionalists "modern aikido"....just...somehow...

It reminds me of Mitt Romney's verbal reversals, really.

Gassho.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 10-10-2012 at 05:16 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

The divide in modern aikido is between those who see it as a rather precise science with ancient roots and long-known methods; and those who believe that aikido is a very vague and general practice of moving circularly for some very unclear and rather dubious reasons.

Words

Those in the "science" cohort use Morihei Ueshiba's recorded words and exact translations to understand what he "talked about".

Those in the "general art" group simply supply their own definitions for very general translations of O Sensei's words so that talk of the kami of yin and yang simply become "gods" rather than principles and from that all kinds of idiosyncratic forms of semi-religious practices replace O Sensei's aikido.

Deeds

Those in the science cohort believe that the "unusual power" displayed by Morihei Ueshiba results from specific internal training methods described in correct translations of his words and that his "unusual power" can be replicated by those who follow his internal training methods. They believe that it is the quality of the body, developed through these methods, that causes the attacker to lose balance and control on contact with the aiki man's body, enabling the aiki man to generate techniques spontaneously to exploit the attacker's unbalance. And make no mistake, I've met women who can do this a lot better than I can.

Those in the "general art" group believe that Morihei Ueshiba was a very religious man whose words were never understood and never can be understood; that his "unusual power" was and remains inexplicable and unapproachable by anyone not so dedicated to his strange religion. They believe that any "body" of any type can produce aiki by moving in evasive circular movements tailored to the attacker's movement--that aiki depends on the attacker's movement rather than on the aiki man's internal organization and balance.

RESULTS OF EACH APPROACH

The scientific cohort develops internal skills along with fighting techniques and lives as Morihei Ueshiba did, welcoming others to test them. The scientific side believes that physical ability against serious physical force is the baseline of truth within aikido and all of budo. To this group, wearing a black belt implies serious interest in physical research with serious physical forces at play--in balanced and focused attacks and instant and unquestionably effective aikido technique.

The "general art" group believes that the black belt is symbolic of some vague idea of honor and commitment. In aikido, it also carries a patina of "spirituality" as general and intangible as the purpose of aikido itself. Any suggestion that one physically "test" his or her techniques or understanding of principles is perceived and denounced as "bullying" or "competition" and the response is generally to eject the offender from the dojo and/or engage in passive-aggressive denunciations.

THE BALANCE

Graham here has called the "scientific" cohort "modern aikido" though it goes directly to the roots of OLD aikido, while Graham clearly present something "new upon the earth" with his Golden Center videos.

Wearing a rasta hat with a hakama and calling traditionalists "modern aikido"....just...somehow...

It reminds me of Mitt Romney's verbal reversals, really.

Gassho.

David

Gee, Dave, you were really doing good until you threw down the political card - as all sensible people know, politics is the bane of society and it is destined to eventually bring us to Armageddon

The divide in modern aikido is between those who see it as a rather precise science with ancient roots and long-known methods; and those who believe that aikido is a very vague and general practice of moving circularly for some very unclear and rather dubious reasons.

Words

Those in the "science" cohort use Morihei Ueshiba's recorded words and exact translations to understand what he "talked about".

Those in the "general art" group simply supply their own definitions for very general translations of O Sensei's words so that talk of the kami of yin and yang simply become "gods" rather than principles and from that all kinds of idiosyncratic forms of semi-religious practices replace O Sensei's aikido.

Deeds

Those in the science cohort believe that the "unusual power" displayed by Morihei Ueshiba results from specific internal training methods described in correct translations of his words and that his "unusual power" can be replicated by those who follow his internal training methods. They believe that it is the quality of the body, developed through these methods, that causes the attacker to lose balance and control on contact with the aiki man's body, enabling the aiki man to generate techniques spontaneously to exploit the attacker's unbalance. And make no mistake, I've met women who can do this a lot better than I can.

Those in the "general art" group believe that Morihei Ueshiba was a very religious man whose words were never understood and never can be understood; that his "unusual power" was and remains inexplicable and unapproachable by anyone not so dedicated to his strange religion. They believe that any "body" of any type can produce aiki by moving in evasive circular movements tailored to the attacker's movement--that aiki depends on the attacker's movement rather than on the aiki man's internal organization and balance.

RESULTS OF EACH APPROACH

The scientific cohort develops internal skills along with fighting techniques and lives as Morihei Ueshiba did, welcoming others to test them. The scientific side believes that physical ability against serious physical force is the baseline of truth within aikido and all of budo. To this group, wearing a black belt implies serious interest in physical research with serious physical forces at play--in balanced and focused attacks and instant and unquestionably effective aikido technique.

The "general art" group believes that the black belt is symbolic of some vague idea of honor and commitment. In aikido, it also carries a patina of "spirituality" as general and intangible as the purpose of aikido itself. Any suggestion that one physically "test" his or her techniques or understanding of principles is perceived and denounced as "bullying" or "competition" and the response is generally to eject the offender from the dojo and/or engage in passive-aggressive denunciations.

THE BALANCE

Graham here has called the "scientific" cohort "modern aikido" though it goes directly to the roots of OLD aikido, while Graham clearly present something "new upon the earth" with his Golden Center videos.

Wearing a rasta hat with a hakama and calling traditionalists "modern aikido"....just...somehow...

It reminds me of Mitt Romney's verbal reversals, really.

Gassho.

David

Ahh, my old friend David. I see you divide things into two groups. Mmmmm. Interesting.

I see your view on the ways of the 'science side' and I would say that is quite apt to how those who consider themselves such do things.

Now the 'arty side?' Nah, never met any like that. So I see no 'arty side' except in peoples heads.

As for reversals........no reversals that I can see by me.

I thought traditionalists, according to your 'cohorts' as you put it, were those who followed along doing what they were told whilst the inner secrets were withheld from them. Now that would make your 'open' methods quite new and modern would it not.

Add to that that modern day and age is media orientated and we are continually bombarded with scurrilous designed to make you feel like you are lacking and therefore need to have then you can see presenting something in a similar way could be considered just as scurrilous. The presentation, not the thing itself.

I see my hat still leads your mind. I must admit seeing you bounce backwards across the room like some poltergeist had got you took my mind for a second.

Ahh, my old friend David. I see you divide things into two groups. Mmmmm. Interesting.

No, you have divided it that way, since your first post. I just put names on the two groups you described and further delineated the characteristics of each group.

Of course...in martial arts, only one of those groups is even considered to exist. The other is not even noticed.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

I see your view on the ways of the 'science side' and I would say that is quite apt to how those who consider themselves such do things.

It was how O Sensei did things. And I'm way more artist than scientist in my approach to life.

The IP side works only from O Sensei--not from Kisshomaru or forward. That, which you represent, if anything, is "modern" aikido. The "scientific" side is "old" aiki.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

Now the 'arty side?' Nah, never met any like that. So I see no 'arty side' except in peoples heads.

Well, that and the lack of aiki in their bodies....and maybe the hats they choose...

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

I thought traditionalists, according to your 'cohorts' as you put it, were those who followed along doing what they were told whilst the inner secrets were withheld from them. Now that would make your 'open' methods quite new and modern would it not.

No. Your "traditionalists" are rooted in the 1960s or 70s.

My traditionalists are from the 1930s and 1940s. Guys like Mochizuki and Shioda didn't follow along doing what they were told. If there was a secret to be had, they made sure to get it. It was the people who came along following Tohei's split who began losing the way.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

Add to that that modern day and age is media orientated and we are continually bombarded with scurrilous designed to make you feel like you are lacking and therefore need to have then you can see presenting something in a similar way could be considered just as scurrilous. The presentation, not the thing itself.

Well, there's your problem, right there. "The presentation" is in your perception. The "scientific" cohort does not put this out as something "to make you feel like you are lacking and therefore need to have."

The noise from the scientific cohort is endless iterations of "EUREKA!" It's positive excitement and JOY at a fantastic discovery that was there all along, like gravity or displacement of water.

You hear the noise and look in and people say, "Look what we have discovered!"

And you say, "I already know that. I do all that."

Oooohhhhhh.

So your pride in your own understanding leads you to disrespect people who know something you've never glimpsed and when they bounce you out, you start hearing the "EUREKA!" differently, through a wounded ego, and when you can't get in any other way, we get passive-aggressive threads like this from you.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

I see my hat still leads your mind. I must admit seeing you bounce backwards across the room like some poltergeist had got you took my mind for a second.

Really? Poltergeist?

What if I can keep my place and drive a big guy even further across the room than that, with just as little movement?

Would you consider that "poltergeist-like"?

Is that the kind of "invisible" power you can produce?

It's just one expression of the kind of energy-sourcing that creates aiki.

But your problem has really been two-fold. By that I mean that there are two groups here that give you most of the grief you get. Other groups provide some peripheral grief, but let's just look at the two main ones.

Traditionalist aikidoka
IP/IS aikidoka

The traditionalists who believe that aiki is external "blending" with the external movement of an attacker's body, see you in the Golden Center Aikido videos and protest vehemently because it appears that you are literally "selling" something as aikido that definitely is not real aikido. I am among this group as, I believe, is Henry Ellis Sensei. And, truth be told, pretty much everyone on here with a few years of serious aikido experience, even in the "general art" group, seems to think that you're presenting a corrupted practice without even knowing it.

You respond by saying that you're teaching ki and principles. Traditionalists wonder, "Why didn't Ueshiba do it that way, then?" Most of them are just too polite to criticize you, but Mochizuki Sensei would not have hesitated and you see a similar spirit from Ellis Sensei.

However, with your claims to be teaching "ki," you step into the IP/IS field and even declare that you can do what Uehsiba did. We would like to see that on video. And I do count myself also among this group that knows that ki development and use is not as you describe it and believe that while selling a particularly corrupt outer form as aikido, you're also selling a meaningless explanation of "ki" and unsound ways of developing it.

Meanwhile, you're constantly taking the IP/IS people to task for failing to grasp your unique approach to the art as "the same" as what they're doing.

Problem is, it's not.

And you get flak from both sides, but you seem to credit all your grief only to the IP/IS group, maybe because more than a few of us fall into both groups--enough IP/IS to know you're on the wrong trail entirely; and enough "regular" aikido to know that you're not teaching that right, either. So it seems like it's all IP/IS people who object to your presentation, but it isn't. It's IP and it's Tradition. The Modern Aikido side places niceties above the qualities of the arts.

But the fact that you see everyone's excitement and joy at finding IP/IS and interpret it as "promotion" intended to make you feel "that you are missing out or less than" just shows that the problem starts with you. You want to be included, of course. Everyone wants to be included. But we all experience rejection at times in life because we want the group's respect on our own criteria rather than the group's, even while stepping on its truths and insulting the individuals involved.

Instead, why don't you consider listening to what the IP/IS side is really saying? Why don't you find out what they've seen that has impressed them so much?

David

Last edited by akiy : 10-10-2012 at 10:14 PM.
Reason: Fixed quote tag

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

If someone expresses an opinion in a manner that is aggressive, rude, or offensive, I agree that there is nothing constructive about it and they should keep it to themselves or be ignored.

Hmm. I appreciate that this may be a goal to strive for, especially online, but as stated you know this is totally wrong, don't you?

Does the value of the message depend on the manner in which it was stated? Do you only accept feedback phrased in a way exquisitely tuned to spare your feelings? Do you only accept input from perfect human beings, who know how to present their feedback in the most careful way possible?

Can you see how much that limits you?

I get a lot of feedback in my professional life, and I've developed a fairly clear methodology for responding to it:
1. Total fury about what an unmitigated jerk the guy is
2. Piss and moan about how they didn't understand what I was doing or and how they didn't even try to read it
3. Complain about their ignorance and incomprehension about the subject matter
4. Object to the stupid way they phrased their comments
5. Sigh, put their review in front of me, and start to deal with it to improve my work

Trying to skip steps 1-4 never really works. Knowing that those are just stages and I've got to get to 5 sooner or later does.

Same if you're feeling put on the spot by Aikido discussions. So what if someone has gone into sales mode? That's their problem. Take what's valuable and leave the rest. So what if they don't think your Aikido is valid? They're a voice on the internet. Take what's valuable and leave the rest.

Or... if the comments are coming from someone you're not willing to ignore... take a long, hard look in the mirror and decide what you really care about. Decide if your self-image as a kick-ass martial artist is really worth preserving over the reality of being a kick-ass martial artist. You can't have the second without being willing to put the first at risk.

Hi Greg, hope this hasn't disturbed you on your yacht. Practicing Aikido on the waves or on a rough sea, now there's a thought.

Politrix? An art all of itself.

Peace.G.

I do that all the time - actually, I am doing it right now; wind and waves picking up a bit tonight on the Chesapeake

You do realize I consider your OP in this thread nothing more than a troll to stir up the pot and get some attention - if you are that lonely, send me a PM and we can chat about our various travels in the astral plane

I do that all the time - actually, I am doing it right now; wind and waves picking up a bit tonight on the Chesapeake

You do realize I consider your OP in this thread nothing more than a troll to stir up the pot and get some attention - if you are that lonely, send me a PM and we can chat about our various travels in the astral plane

Greg

No doubt you are not alone in your considerations. Shame. I'm lonely now am I? Interesting conclusion.

No, you have divided it that way, since your first post. I just put names on the two groups you described and further delineated the characteristics of each group.

Of course...in martial arts, only one of those groups is even considered to exist. The other is not even noticed.

It was how O Sensei did things. And I'm way more artist than scientist in my approach to life.

The IP side works only from O Sensei--not from Kisshomaru or forward. That, which you represent, if anything, is "modern" aikido. The "scientific" side is "old" aiki.

Well, that and the lack of aiki in their bodies....and maybe the hats they choose...

No. Your "traditionalists" are rooted in the 1960s or 70s.

My traditionalists are from the 1930s and 1940s. Guys like Mochizuki and Shioda didn't follow along doing what they were told. If there was a secret to be had, they made sure to get it. It was the people who came along following Tohei's split who began losing the way.

Well, there's your problem, right there. "The presentation" is in your perception. The "scientific" cohort does not put this out as something "to make you feel like you are lacking and therefore need to have."

The noise from the scientific cohort is endless iterations of "EUREKA!" It's positive excitement and JOY at a fantastic discovery that was there all along, like gravity or displacement of water.

You hear the noise and look in and people say, "Look what we have discovered!"

And you say, "I already know that. I do all that."

Oooohhhhhh.

So your pride in your own understanding leads you to disrespect people who know something you've never glimpsed and when they bounce you out, you start hearing the "EUREKA!" differently, through a wounded ego, and when you can't get in any other way, we get passive-aggressive threads like this from you.

Really? Poltergeist?

What if I can keep my place and drive a big guy even further across the room than that, with just as little movement?

Would you consider that "poltergeist-like"?

Is that the kind of "invisible" power you can produce?

It's just one expression of the kind of energy-sourcing that creates aiki.

But your problem has really been two-fold. By that I mean that there are two groups here that give you most of the grief you get. Other groups provide some peripheral grief, but let's just look at the two main ones.

Traditionalist aikidoka
IP/IS aikidoka

The traditionalists who believe that aiki is external "blending" with the external movement of an attacker's body, see you in the Golden Center Aikido videos and protest vehemently because it appears that you are literally "selling" something as aikido that definitely is not real aikido. I am among this group as, I believe, is Henry Ellis Sensei. And, truth be told, pretty much everyone on here with a few years of serious aikido experience, even in the "general art" group, seems to think that you're presenting a corrupted practice without even knowing it.

You respond by saying that you're teaching ki and principles. Traditionalists wonder, "Why didn't Ueshiba do it that way, then?" Most of them are just too polite to criticize you, but Mochizuki Sensei would not have hesitated and you see a similar spirit from Ellis Sensei.

However, with your claims to be teaching "ki," you step into the IP/IS field and even declare that you can do what Uehsiba did. We would like to see that on video. And I do count myself also among this group that knows that ki development and use is not as you describe it and believe that while selling a particularly corrupt outer form as aikido, you're also selling a meaningless explanation of "ki" and unsound ways of developing it.

Meanwhile, you're constantly taking the IP/IS people to task for failing to grasp your unique approach to the art as "the same" as what they're doing.

Problem is, it's not.

And you get flak from both sides, but you seem to credit all your grief only to the IP/IS group, maybe because more than a few of us fall into both groups--enough IP/IS to know you're on the wrong trail entirely; and enough "regular" aikido to know that you're not teaching that right, either. So it seems like it's all IP/IS people who object to your presentation, but it isn't. It's IP and it's Tradition. The Modern Aikido side places niceties above the qualities of the arts.

But the fact that you see everyone's excitement and joy at finding IP/IS and interpret it as "promotion" intended to make you feel "that you are missing out or less than" just shows that the problem starts with you. You want to be included, of course. Everyone wants to be included. But we all experience rejection at times in life because we want the group's respect on our own criteria rather than the group's, even while stepping on its truths and insulting the individuals involved.

Instead, why don't you consider listening to what the IP/IS side is really saying? Why don't you find out what they've seen that has impressed them so much?

David

No, no two groups mentioned by me thanks. Also I never describe anyone as traditionalist. So you may carry on doing so but don't include me in that line of reason.

IP works only from Ueshiba and not from Kisshomaru forward? That 'old' aiki maybe.

What I represent? By your conclusions and assertions on such I see you have no idea in that respect.

My pride in my understanding wounded? Nice philosophy and personal assertion. However, way off the mark once again. I like others uereka moments, I share their joy.

What if you do stay in one place and send someone flying with minimal movement. Obviously that means a great deal to you so go for it. What would I think about it? Not much.

Can I produce that kind of power? Yes, it's no big deal.

Nice of you to explain my 'problem' too. So many assertions you make which are not true, interesting.

I take IS/IP folk to task for failing to understand my unique approach as 'the same' as what they are doing? Totally false.

Your experiment with the wall in your video reminds me only of a similar thing I did twenty years ago.

Similar with regards to experimenting with power but totally different in respect to the 'aiki' you use.

Lastly I will repeat that promoting and sharing what you do or 'aiki' folks do is welcomed, liked, enjoyed by me. That means your assertions are way, way askew.

Now, let me reverse everything you conclude and only then do I see a more pertinent scene.

I understand the many different ways and approaches taken by various styles and groups within the Aikido sphere. I understand such 'aiki' folk doing their thing. I can enjoy watching all forms of aikido. I have been to various places with people and watched various ways and whilst many of those I went with either came away complaining how rubbish it was I myself enjoyed it. I enjoy.

Great power? Unusual power? Something I and others have been demonstrating for years. From the 'aiki' you talk about? No.

So I can describe and accept and understand what this 'old' aiki is about and tell others quite clearly what it is you and the 'aiki' folk do. I can present it as it is and present it to others in a good way.

Therefor if someone came to me looking for such a thing I would know who to send them to or refer them to. As I've said before, it's all good.

On the other hand you my friend can not I believe do the same regarding what I do.

I listen to what these IP/IS folk say and see and understand that they are impressed.

So the scene is very, very simple. I enjoy all forms of Aikido. Those who don't don't understand me.

So your pride in your own understanding leads you to disrespect people who know something you've never glimpsed and when they bounce you out, you start hearing the "EUREKA!" differently, through a wounded ego, and when you can't get in any other way, we get passive-aggressive threads like this from you.

Hi David,

Most can see that Graham Christian's original post was denigrating to people. And, yes, I think that needs to be made clear, but I try to do so without resorting to that level. Why he made the post? Not really a factor here and going down that road leads to similar instances of degrading. Guess, what I'm asking is if we could try to keep away from talking about personalities and stick to the subject matter.

I'm actually going to vote for Rmoney....until the day before the election...

Of course, in Alabama, my vote might as well not exist...

Actually, I despise all politicians pretty much equally - normally I do a write in vote and last election I did Clark Kent, since he did not get in, this year I think I will go with Jeff Lebowski - have a nice day dude

Actually, I despise all politicians pretty much equally - normally I do a write in vote and last election I did Clark Kent, since he did not get in, this year I think I will go with Jeff Lebowski - have a nice day dude

Greg

Clark Kent? sheesh! it's a fake personality, dude! superman is superman through and through. he used Clark Kent as his alter-ego, i.e. not real. now, on the other hand, the left one, the other left, Bruce Wayne is the real thing, whereas, the batman is the alter-ego. superman born with it, whereas, batman has to work for it. so this year, you should write in for Bruce Wayne. it's all about promoting and advertising. besides, Bruce Wayne has better rides.

Three posts I drafted and deleted in response to this thread... Its like the gravity of the sun pulling me in...

First, promotion is the avenue by which to position your product and place it within the market. If anything, I would say, we, as consumers of aikido instruction are not vocal enough about providing feedback to fellow practitioners about their "product". I have read many threads here that opine if an instructor is "abusive", far fewer opine about instruction that lacks function, form, or clarity.
For example: "I like the Charlotte dojo. Phi is funny, but man he can't teach his way out of a paper bag. Oh, and he doesn't know a thing about aiki... kiai on the other hand. whew." (disclaimer: Phi is a nice guy and a great instructor and I am using him because I know him personally).

Second, grouping is a tactic of promotion. Are you cool? You are if you have an iPhone. Are you unique? Sure, if you buy these girlfriend jeans from the Gap. When someone points out something I am not doing, but they feel it has value, I will consider it. I am missing out, but that is something in my training that I am not doing. The consideration I must give is whether the thing is valuable to me. I hope aiki bunnies play bongo drums and flit ribbons all day long. Those things are missing from my training... and they will always be missing from my training because I do not value them. I did not say they have no value, only no value to me or the aikido I teach. It is no more appropriate for me to lament the bongo-drum-playing-ribbon-flitting aikido than it is for me to lament the internal-strength-power aikido. Some one believes there is value in each.

To tie these points together, I believe we have an obligation to identify and correctly place aikido dojo, instructors and students with the community. This isn't even an argument if we are talking about bad instructors or bad dojos. This is only an argument because we are overly polite and sensitive to aikido people who are nice.

As a final personal note, I was disappointed with the spirit of the initial post. Like many voices, I found this thread to be passive-aggressive and generally condescending. I was conflicted between hoping Jun would kill this thread and hoping some one could salvage its remains. I think it is fair to say that no one likes to be criticized, but when we do it in a spirit of aid and empathy it makes us stronger and better. I hope I will never turn down good advice from those I respect, even if my feelings (or ego) get a little bruised.

Most can see that Graham Christian's original post was denigrating to people. And, yes, I think that needs to be made clear, but I try to do so without resorting to that level. Why he made the post? Not really a factor here and going down that road leads to similar instances of degrading. Guess, what I'm asking is if we could try to keep away from talking about personalities and stick to the subject matter.

Great points, Mark.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

I just posted a this thread designed for those who would like to think, study, recognize.

Nothing wrong with promotion but 'What is the message given by modern advertising and pressure selling?'

Think about it, observe it, recognize.

When you recognize it's unnecessary and passively aggressive we will be on the same page.

Given in the spirit of zen.

Peace.G.

Yet you posted this, "Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't. Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really. As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure. Funny thing is it's not even needed."

Again, you do not answer the questions asked:

Modern advertising is all over the place. There is no congruent, fixed "thing" labelled "modern advertising". So again, please detail out what you mean in relation to "a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising". You stated "a lot". Please show us the threads, posts, people who are doing all this degrading into advertising.

Would you please define "that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than"? Please point to people or posts.

Who are you calling "insecure"?

You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them into insecure salespeople who are driven by fear.

Yet you posted this, "Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't. Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really. As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure. Funny thing is it's not even needed."

Again, you do not answer the questions asked:

Modern advertising is all over the place. There is no congruent, fixed "thing" labelled "modern advertising". So again, please detail out what you mean in relation to "a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising". You stated "a lot". Please show us the threads, posts, people who are doing all this degrading into advertising.

Would you please define "that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than"? Please point to people or posts.

Who are you calling "insecure"?

You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them into insecure salespeople who are driven by fear.

There is no misunderstanding. You were asked to provide specifics and you have not. Your original post was denigrating and most can see it. I think you should be held accountable for your post. Either answer the questions and provide specifics or apologize.

There is no misunderstanding. You were asked to provide specifics and you have not. Your original post was denigrating and most can see it. I think you should be held accountable for your post. Either answer the questions and provide specifics or apologize.

Mark

Well if you don't think you are misunderstanding then it's pointless answering anything you ask.

If there is no misunderstanding then we are on the same page. I think not. Therefor no worthwhile communication exists between me and thee.

I have shown quite clearly how the principles of advertising and pressure selling work and being an ANALOGY one can thus see when we operate from said principles, complete with examples ie: Boasting.

You continue however to insist I am calling people salesmen. If you can only be literal then and not follow what the OP asks then fine by me but alas end of conversation.

Well if you don't think you are misunderstanding then it's pointless answering anything you ask.

If there is no misunderstanding then we are on the same page. I think not. Therefor no worthwhile communication exists between me and thee.

I have shown quite clearly how the principles of advertising and pressure selling work and being an ANALOGY one can thus see when we operate from said principles, complete with examples ie: Boasting.

You continue however to insist I am calling people salesmen. If you can only be literal then and not follow what the OP asks then fine by me but alas end of conversation.

Peace.G.

Considering that it wasn't *just* me asking, you might want to rethink your approach. And no, you did not clear anything up except to show that you're unwilling to answer the questions put forth. Please keep on topic for this thread that you started and answer the questions.

Graham, as an advertiser and promoter, I have chosen to take offence to your overriding assertion that advertising is forcing your opinion on someone else due to your projection of this very device. It is true that SOME advertisers do this. The EFFECTIVE ones do not. I'm interested to hear of your experiences in the marketing and advertising field that has led you to such an opinion?
I;m not trying to be argumentative - I have difficulty understanding your post(s) and would like to be able to contribute to a constructive dialogue better.
There is bad advertising out there in buy-me-now-land. As a consumer, it is our responsibility to filter out the unnecessary - rather like our practice, wouldn't you think?
FYI - I don't own a Blu-ray player - don't need one. Guess that message got lost on me?
Cheers
Thanks and regards,

Graham, as an advertiser and promoter, I have chosen to take offence to your overriding assertion that advertising is forcing your opinion on someone else due to your projection of this very device. It is true that SOME advertisers do this. The EFFECTIVE ones do not. I'm interested to hear of your experiences in the marketing and advertising field that has led you to such an opinion?
I;m not trying to be argumentative - I have difficulty understanding your post(s) and would like to be able to contribute to a constructive dialogue better.
There is bad advertising out there in buy-me-now-land. As a consumer, it is our responsibility to filter out the unnecessary - rather like our practice, wouldn't you think?
FYI - I don't own a Blu-ray player - don't need one. Guess that message got lost on me?
Cheers
Thanks and regards,

Hi Travers. You take offence do you? Well I hope you don't blame me for it is your choice.

Having said that I am only too happy to discuss the topic with you.

Your 'joke' about not owning a blu ray player actually agrees with what I say in the OP. You were quite happy and confident in what you already had. Thus on that particular subject you were not vulnerable or insecure.

Hopefully that clears up that point.

As to my experience it would be quite a lot to write and then as to your other point about responsibility to filter out then on that I would say that is not responsibility or rather primary responsibility either.