I just finished a three-day debate with my Christian Baptist neighbor. He is very active in Republican politics. He views the GOP (and Goveror Perry, TX) as the salvation of America. I pointed out to him that the GOP will not save us but GOD will and that seven of the nine justices on the Supreme Court have been appointed by Republican presidents; yet, we do not have one justice who is not pro-H*mos*xual and pro-abortion. I further pointed out to him that Governor Perry, speaking at a fund-raiser in Aspen, Colorado, said that he had no problem with New York's recent same-s@x marriages. Under the Tenth Amendment New York can do this, "And that's fine with me," Perry said.

Needless to say, my neighbor got more angry at me, a brother in the Lord, than he did Perry for loving h*m*sexuals right into Hell. The only argument he could come up with was that the Mosaic law applied only to Israel and was not really binding on Gentiles outside of Israel. So h*m*s*xuality, abortion, adultery, etc. is permissable under our form of government.

Now, unbeknownst to my neighbor, he's not the first confused Christian to espouse this worldview. The late, great apologist and Christian scholar Dr. Norman Geisler believed and taught this admantly. He is now in a remedial Bible class in heaven. It's good that God does not send Christians to Hell for being confused.

Since I deem my neighbor to be confused on this very important issue, I thought it might be a very good topic for us. Please let us not get into politics except to make a point for the moral issue. I am not Democrat or Republican. I think they are all crooks. So, weigh in. Is God's law (and prescribed punishments) for Israel only? Or does God's law apply to all humans on Planet Earth?

I finally got him to admit half-heartedly that while God's law was for us too, the punishments prescribed by God were rather harsh (death for h*m*sexuals for example). And of course, he's not alone in today's world--Christians and atheists.

I would like Scriptural backing, but a good philosophical or logical argument will be considered as well. And atheists are welcome to argue that morality in government can be established apart from God and Moses.

Now I hope I posted this in the right category? I think it is more of a Biblical issue than a political one. I will let the webmasters decide?

I just finished a three-day debate with my Christian Baptist neighbor. He is very active in Republican politics. He views the GOP (and Goveror Perry, TX) as the salvation of America. I pointed out to him that the GOP will not save us but GOD will and that seven of the nine justices on the Supreme Court have been appointed by Republican presidents; yet, we do not have one justice who is not pro-H*mos*xual and pro-abortion. I further pointed out to him that Governor Perry, speaking at a fund-raiser in Aspen, Colorado, said that he had no problem with New York's recent same-s@x marriages. Under the Tenth Amendment New York can do this, "And that's fine with me," Perry said.

Needless to say, my neighbor got more angry at me, a brother in the Lord, than he did Perry for loving h*m*sexuals right into Hell. The only argument he could come up with was that the Mosaic law applied only to Israel and was not really binding on Gentiles outside of Israel. So h*m*s*xuality, abortion, adultery, etc. is permissable under our form of government.

Now, unbeknownst to my neighbor, he's not the first confused Christian to espouse this worldview. The late, great apologist and Christian scholar Dr. Norman Geisler believed and taught this admantly. He is now in a remedial Bible class in heaven. It's good that God does not send Christians to Hell for being confused.

Since I deem my neighbor to be confused on this very important issue, I thought it might be a very good topic for us. Please let us not get into politics except to make a point for the moral issue. I am not Democrat or Republican. I think they are all crooks. So, weigh in. Is God's law (and prescribed punishments) for Israel only? Or does God's law apply to all humans on Planet Earth?

I finally got him to admit half-heartedly that while God's law was for us too, the punishments prescribed by God were rather harsh (death for h*m*sexuals for example). And of course, he's not alone in today's world--Christians and atheists.

I would like Scriptural backing, but a good philosophical or logical argument will be considered as well. And atheists are welcome to argue that morality in government can be established apart from God and Moses.

Now I hope I posted this in the right category? I think it is more of a Biblical issue than a political one. I will let the webmasters decide?

TeeJay

Those who are looking to politicians to save America, of whatever political stripe, are only fooling themselves. It is the Lord whom we must look to just as the ancient, 1st century Christians were forced to do so during the reign of the Ceasars Rome and their persecution. Christians couldn't even vote then and most were not even citizens of Rome.

But to answer the question about God's law. His eternal law existed before the Law of Moses and only those moral teachings (Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery, etc.) apply to all mankind. But the civil and/or ceremonial law that has to do with sacrifices, temples, preists, etc. was not for the gentiles.

As far as h____sexuality and other perversions are concerned: I am dead set against them just as I am murder, theft, lies, gossip, or extortion but just as those sins can and are forgiven by God as it concerns penitent sinners, so forgiveness should be extended to those who are sorry before God about their perversion. Remember that there were converted perverts in the church at Corinth (Chap. 6) and they were accepted by the congregation like all other repentant sinners. Should we therefore wish for laws to put to death such perverted people even if they are forgiven? You might say 'yes' thinking in Old Testament terms but what if you discover that those so designated turns out effecting a long standing church member in your congregation who has struggled with the sin for a long time...or perhaps even a family member who rebelled against the Lord? So I am not as hard on that issue as I once was. I wouldn't want to see them killed as was the case in Moses day.

I hope this helps. Just remember that we do not have all the same obligations of Moses law that the Jews did. Our situation is much like it was for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who lived before the law of Moses was given. We are pilgrims and strangers in the earth and our position on the issues may be of no interest to the rest of society. That's because we belong to another country.

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1313100846' post='73985']
Those who are looking to politicians to save America, of whatever political stripe, are only fooling themselves. It is the Lord whom we must look to just as the ancient, 1st century Christians were forced to do so during the reign of the Ceasars Rome and their persecution. Christians couldn't even vote then and most were not even citizens of Rome.[/quote]

Cal, thanks for your response.

The main problem we are having is that Christians blindly support politicians who are wolves in sheep's clothing. I always point out to Christians that I would rather have the wolf in office that looks and acts like a wolf. In the past, we have had wolves who desgised themselves as pro-life for example, and four years later, the butchering of babies in abortion mills grinds on. We Christians should be "fools for Christ" and not for politicians.

[quote]But to answer the question about God's law. His eternal law existed before the Law of Moses and only those moral teachings (Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery, etc.) apply to all mankind. But the civil and/or ceremonial law that has to do with sacrifices, temples, preists, etc. was not for the gentiles.[/quote]

You are so correct on this. Many Christians do not realize that the symbolic law was for Israel only, it separated them as a "peculiar nation" and most of it pointed to Jesus Christ. I've attended churches where a decon would stick out his chest and brag that he declined a three-day fishing trip with an old friend (who was an atheist) to observe the Sabbath and attend church service. But Jesus Christ would tell him that this was an excellent opportunity to witness to this unsaved friend. Three days in a boat in the middle of the lake; what more can a Christian ask for? I always make it a point to tell these people that violation of Sabbath law was a death penalty (Num. 15:32-36). And then I ask them: "Are you sure you want to put yourself under Sabbath law?"

[quote]As far as h____sexuality and other perversions are concerned: I am dead set against them just as I am murder, theft, lies, gossip, or extortion but just as those sins can and are forgiven by God as it concerns penitent sinners, so forgiveness should be extended to those who are sorry before God about their perversion. Remember that there were converted perverts in the church at Corinth (Chap. 6) and they were accepted by the congregation like all other repentant sinners. Should we therefore wish for laws to put to death such perverted people even if they are forgiven? You might say 'yes' thinking in Old Testament terms but what if you discover that those so designated turns out effecting a long standing church member in your congregation who has struggled with the sin for a long time...or perhaps even a family member who rebelled against the Lord? So I am not as hard on that issue as I once was. I wouldn't want to see them killed as was the case in Moses day.[/quote]

It goes without saying that all sins can be forgiven by God. Jesus died for all sinners. But when we get two h*m*sexuals saved for example, we have to use Godly wisdom when we minister to them. If I were a pastor, I would have them separate from living together. Next, I would not let them both attend my church. I would send one to another church that I could trust and I would alert the pastor as to the H*mos*xual's past. And I would have my elders not only minister to him, but I would not put him in any position of trust (youth pastor for example). As time progressed, and he gained by trust and the trust of my elders, I would grant him more leeway. We must use Godly wisdom in handling these situations. Likewise, if I had a recovering alcoholic I would not trust him with the keys to the communion wine closet.

Now back on point. Most Christians I meet agree with God concerning S@xual immorality, and agree with God that h*m*s*xuality is an "abomination" and a "perversion." But when the death penalty is mentioned, most Christians go weak in the knees. God demands the death penalty for h*m*s*xuality (Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13).

At first blush, this penalty seems so harsh. But long term, His punishment is merciful. Just look at the millions who have died from just AIDS (the H*mos*xual disease). In the Middle East, some Arab contries have punishments for crimes that reflect more closely Moses' law than ours in America. But then they have some punishments that do not fit the crime, and yes, h*m*s*xuality is a crime. For example, they cut off the hand of a thief. God would never punish a thief so severly. But His death penalty for h*m*s*xuality fits the crime perfectly.

You pointed outthat they can be forgiven and get saved. But take away the stigma of h*m*s*xuality and then it is very difficult to save them. Today, G*ys are convinced by politicians, Hollywood, news media, and sadly our churches that they are most wonderful of creatures. They are not convicted by the God's laws that they are sinners. You, as a Christian, may have the cure for cancer, but try administering the cure to a man who does not believe he has cancer. God's law is the best evangelical tool we have to convict and show a sinner a need for a Savior. But we have make His law null and void.

And, most imporantly, when we refuse to obey God and put people to death, we profane God (Ezek. 13:19). And when you legalize a crime, then you have to regulate it. And that turns out to be impossible. Just imagine legalizing rape: "If you rape a woman, you have to take her to a clean, dry hotel room." I know this sounds like a silly analogy, but we have done just that with abortion. If you're a teen, you have to get your parents' permission. You have to wait 36 hours and then you can kill the baby. You have to get counsiling before you can kill the baby. You can kill the baby if the father is a criminal (rapist). And so on.

Further, the law is the great teacher. Bad law teaches bad morals; good law teaches righteousness. Also, when God's law is enforced sternly and swiftly, man will be less prone to violate God's law (Deut. 17:12-13 & Eccl 8:11).

God's death penalty laws are not optional (Num. 35:31-33). And a judge can't not show mercy. God forbids it (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Peo. 6:30-31).

[quote]I hope this helps. Just remember that we do not have all the same obligations of Moses law that the Jews did. Our situation is much like it was for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who lived before the law of Moses was given. We are pilgrims and strangers in the earth and our position on the issues may be of no interest to the rest of society. That's because we belong to another country.

Best wishes to you.
[/quote]

I submit that we are in the pickle we are in because the Christian church has withdrawn from the fight. I attended a church here in Texas where the people inside did not want to go out and what was out they did not want to let in. Politics really determines what or whose morality we will live under. If we leave it up to unbelievers, then the morality that will be legislated can only be relative. But relative morality is no morality at all. Just as two contradictions can't both be true and the same time, so too, a particular behavior can't be both moral and immoral at the same time. When there is a vacuum, it will be filled. We Christins must endeavor to fill the vacuum with God's law. We have the mind of Christ. We are the only ones qualified to determine morality for our government. But our churches are weak and you can't get one to endorse God's penalties for crimes. I expect foolishness from Hollywood but not from our church leaders.

I definately agree that all politicians are crooks, mostly we get stuck voting for the lesser of two evils. I don't adjust my political veiws to the person I have voted on whom has changed their standing on something. It's like someone saying they are christian, they can say they are but you find out where in lies the truth through their actions or beliefs. I don't think your neighbor truely believes that the law was only intended for Israel, it sounds like he felt cornered so that was his quick witted (or dim witted) attempt to evade your question. Don't know this for sure but im sure your neighbor didn't know this about Perry so it through him off gaurd. As for me I will choose the lesser of two evils.

If you are referring to the ceremonial law, I believe that was for the Jews only. The moral law was and is for all people. Paul writes in Romans how nature itself reveals God. In Romans 2:14, Paul tells us that Gentiles (who did not have the law given to them) could do the things contained in the law. They had the law written in their hearts and their conscience to guide them. All people, whether Jew or Gentile have no excuse in the day of judgment; but how much worse punishment for the chosen Jews who reject the Messiah, having been given the oracles, the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the service, the promises, Jesus performing miracles in their midst etc.

[quote] name='supamk3speed' timestamp='1313119589' post='74001']
I definately agree that all politicians are crooks, mostly we get stuck voting for the lesser of two evils. I don't adjust my political veiws to the person I have voted on whom has changed their standing on something. It's like someone saying they are christian, they can say they are but you find out where in lies the truth through their actions or beliefs. I don't think your neighbor truely believes that the law was only intended for Israel, it sounds like he felt cornered so that was his quick witted (or dim witted) attempt to evade your question. Don't know this for sure but im sure your neighbor didn't know this about Perry so it through him off gaurd. As for me I will choose the lesser of two evils.
[/quote]

Supamk,

I think you're right about my neighbor. He was a little ashamed that he had not done his homework on Perry. And, although I pretty much proved him wrong, he never admitted it. His out was "that law is only for Israel." I was at a flea market and I met a member of a local very conservative Baptist church. He was campaigning for the Democratic candidate for governor and handing out pamphlets. So I asked him was his candidate pro-life or pro-abortion. He did not know. So I mildly rebuked him. I said, As a Christian first, and a Southern Baptist second, shouldn't you know if you are endorsing a man who kills babies in violation of God's law[Ex. 21:21]?" He was speechless. But this is the sad state of affairs in the church. It's not our country; it's our Christian churches that are at the heart of our problems.

Supamk, respectively, I would like you to rethink your voting for he lesser of two evils. When we have a worldview, we should always consider what is the ultimate conclusion or outcome of my belief. Let's pretend that in the next election you research the candidate running against Obama and you find out that he is more evil than Obama. So then you are forced to vote for Obama, who is ultra-extreme pro-abortion, pro-H*mos*xual and so on (the lesser of two evils). I am guilty of voting for he lesser of two evils myself. But we've been doing this since Roe v. Wade, 1967.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313122581' post='74003']
2 Samuel 12:13 "And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."

John 8:11 "She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

Has God not always set the perfect example for us?
[/quote]

ME,

All authority rests with God. But He has delegated SOME of His authority. He has delegated authority to governments to punish and execute criminals. He's delegated authority to parents to spank their kids. And even the kids can spank the dog. But, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, He has not delegated authority to man to show mercy to criminals and not carry out punishment prescribed by God. That authority God has reserved for Himself. Now concerning God forgiving King David and Jesus forgiving the woman caught in adultery: God can forgive sins and crimes. We can't. People forget that Jesus Christ is God and He has authority to commute the adulterous woman's death penalty. God had the right to commute King David's death penalty. We don't. And notice that when God forgave King David, he did not do away with the punishments for anyone in the future who wanted to murder and commit adultery. When Jesus said, "You sins are forgiven," the Jews immediately took up stones to stone Him. The Jews rightly reasoned that only God can forgve sins, but they reasoned wrongly as to Jesus' authority. Jesus did have the authority to forgive sin.

One of the main reasons for forbidding judges to show mercy is that judges do not have standing to forgive another person's debt. If I owe you $5, only you can forgive the $5 debt. A third person can't do that. Bankruptcy laws are immoral because a judge forgives a person that owes you money. He does not have authority to do that. When you murder someone, only your victim and God can forgive you. A judge does not have standing to forgive a murderer. Make sense?

I would agree with Mama. I was thinking about John 8 and the woman caught in adultery also. We as Christians are a holy nation, a nation of our own, set apart from this world, just as the Jews were set apart from Gentiles. Jesus not only agreed with Jewish law, but set an even higher standard ( Matthew 5). I believe that Jesus was clearly pushing mercy and not judgment. Yes, there must be justice and punishment for crimes in all lands everywhere, but I believe that the Old Testament punishments were only for Jews, and only to show God's feelings toward sin(s).

If you are referring to the ceremonial law, I believe that was for the Jews only. The moral law was and is for all people. Paul writes in Romans how nature itself reveals God. In Romans 2:14, Paul tells us that Gentiles (who did not have the law given to them) could do the things contained in the law. They had the law written in their hearts and their conscience to guide them. All people, whether Jew or Gentile have no excuse in the day of judgment; but how much worse punishment for the chosen Jews who reject the Messiah, having been given the oracles, the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the service, the promises, Jesus performing miracles in their midst etc.

Chip, you are correct in that the ceremonial law was for Israel only. I call it symbolic law such as the feasts, diets, clothes, laws for he priests, Sabbath law, circumcision--all were for Israel. These laws were neither moral nor immoral. They separated Israel as a "peculiar" nation. And they pointed to Jesus Christ. For example, the high priest could not be blind because "in Jesus the blind see." The high priest could not be lame, because "in Jesus the lame walk." Pure clothig pointed to Jesus as their pure covering. The lamb with out blemish was Jesus without sin. But circumcision trumped all symbolic law and is a synonym for all the law--moral and symbolic. One can never violate one moral law to keep another moral law. For example one can't justify hiring a prostitute to keep from committing rape. But if the eighth day of a Jewish male's life fell on the Sabbath, then the positive command to circumcise trumped God's negative command to abstain from work. So, if Paul was your pastor and you tried to keed the Sabbath or get circumcised, he would whip you like a step-child.

And you are so right to go to Paul as an authority for this subject as to whether we are under the Mosaic law and should we carry out the punishments prescribed by God or should we disobey and determine our own punishment? (After all, we know better than God.) After listing just about every sin that man can commit in Romans 1, Paul plainly writes in the last verse (v. 32): "...who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things ARE DESERVING OF DEATH..." And Paul gives the strongest and bravest endorsement of the death penalty in the whole of Scripture: On trial for his life before Felix, Paul proclaims: "For if I am an offender or have committed anything deserving of death, I DO NOT OBJECT TO DYING" (Acts 25:11). Wow! Here's a man who was not offended by God's law.

in Romans 1, Paul plainly writes in the last verse (v. 32): "...who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things ARE DESERVING OF DEATH..." And Paul gives the strongest and bravest endorsement of the death penalty in the whole of Scripture: On trial for his life before Felix, Paul proclaims: "For if I am an offender or have committed anything deserving of death, I DO NOT OBJECT TO DYING" (Acts 25:11). Wow! Here's a man who was not offended by God's law.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313163643' post='74033']
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
[/quote]

ME,

I just want to be clear. When Paul says that the unrighteous shall not be saved, he assumes that we know he is referring to "unrepentant" murderers, adulterers, fornicators, effeminates. Jesus sacrifice paid for all sins that we can commit and haven't even conceived of yet.

Now all sins are not crimes. Lusting and coveting are sins, but are not crimes and no earthly death penalty is demanded by God. But all crimes are sins and God commands that murderers, h*m*sexuals, adulterers be put to death. The death penalty has nothing to do with individual salvation. The convicted murderer on death row can get on his knees and be saved two minutes before his execution.

My quesion to you: Do you believe God's death penalty laws should be in force today? Whose morality should influence our government: atheists, secular, Christian?

To be more clear, I will list all the death penalty laws for which God demands a death penalty:

Murder Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14; 20:13; Lev. 24:17, 21; Num. 35:16-21; Deut. 19:11-13. Note: In Deut. 19:16-20, God commands that an attempted crime should be punished as if successful. DonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t reward the shooter for being a bad shot.
Kidnapping Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7
Deadly negligence Ex. 21:28-30; Deut. 22:8
Capital perjury Deut. 19:16-21; Ex. 20:16
Adultery Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22; Ex. 20:14
Sodomy (h*m*s*xuality) Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13
b*stiality Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16
Incest Lev. 20:11-21
Rape of engaged woman Deut. 22:25
Rape of married woman Deut. 22:22-25 (Note: In Deut. 22:28-29, if a man lies with a single woman who is not engaged or married, and he is caught, then that man must pay a monetary restitution to her father, for she has been defiled. Additionally, he must marry her, and he can never divorce her on the days of his life.)
Human sacrifice Lev. 20:2
Manslaughter during a crime Ex. 21:22-23
Abortion Ex. 21:22-23 (This Biblical text is accurately translated, as in the New King James, premature birth, not miscarriage Thus, if an assault leads to a premature birth, and the baby is physically injured as a result, punish the perpetrator with an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But if the baby dies, then punish the guilty man life for life.)

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313163643' post='74033']
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
[/quote]

ME and you all,

Let's make this a little more interesting. God actually had just three forms of punishment. He commanded the death penalty for capital crimes--crimes that lead to death. For example, incest was once legal. But as the gene pool deteriorated, God wisely forbid close marriages within the family. This behavior leads to death. h*m*s*xuality has led to the deaths of millions around the world. God knows best what's good for us.

Instead of "time out" in prison, God had a system of restitution. Instead of letting a thief languish in prison, He demanded that the thief pay back his victim. And there were various penalties. For example, if I stole your car and and I was caught and the car was recovered undamaged, then I had to pay you back two times the value of the car. If I did not have any money, I would be sold into slavery or servitude and the money received for my purchase goes to my victim instead of the government in fines. And if the criminal disobeyed the judge and ran away, the judge could have him hunted down and killed. The following is a more detailed description:

Restitution Crimes

If a thief stole, and the stolen goods were recovered in good condition, the judge would order the thief to pay back to his victim two times the value of the stolen goods (Ex. 22:4, 7-9; 20:15). If the thief had sold or destroyed the goods and they were unrecoverable, the thief had to pay back four times the value (Ex. 22:1). If the stolen goods were irreplaceable or sentimental, the thief had to pay back five times the value (Ex. 22:1). If the thief stole and then repented and returned the goods, he had to pay back 120 percent (Lev. 6:1-7). Restitution for accidental destruction of goods was one-half of the value (Ex. 21:35). Common negligence required equal value restitution (Ex. 21:33-34, 36; 22:-5-6). Destruction of property was equal value restitution (Lev. 24:18). Restitution for temporary injury was medical bills and lost salary (Ex. 21:18-19).

Now the thief's slavery could not exceed six years, for in the seventh year, he would go free. This related to God working for six days and resting on the seventh. God is merciful and just. The slavery laws that God had were just, unlike our slavery where a man became a slave because of the color of his skin.

The third form of punishment was flogging for minor crimes: drunkeness, misbehavior, disrespect for a judge, etc. There are no many convicts on death row that wish that someone had flogged them when they were teenagers. But our juvinile justice system allows teens to progress in their crimes from pranks to felonies. Pranks are corretable; felonies are not.

God did not like prisons except as holding cells for criminals awaiting trial. Why does God not like prison? Because the ultimate prison is Hell, and he does not want us to go there.

So, should we have God's criminal justice system or the man-made one we have today.

We learn a lot about justice by studying God's laws. His justice is perfect. His law is perfect.

The question is, should it apply to all?

I say no, for the scripture I quoted earlier shows an example of some people who would have never became Christians if we applied God's law to all people. They would have been executed.

In addition, we have Christ to help us to refrain from sinning. (I can cite this later if need be.) Non-christians do not have his help and therefore should not be held to the same standard of conduct with the penalty being death.

The main problem we are having is that Christians blindly support politicians who are wolves in sheep's clothing. I always point out to Christians that I would rather have the wolf in office that looks and acts like a wolf. In the past, we have had wolves who desgised themselves as pro-life for example, and four years later, the butchering of babies in abortion mills grinds on. We Christians should be "fools for Christ" and not for politicians.

You are so correct on this. Many Christians do not realize that the symbolic law was for Israel only, it separated them as a "peculiar nation" and most of it pointed to Jesus Christ. I've attended churches where a decon would stick out his chest and brag that he declined a three-day fishing trip with an old friend (who was an atheist) to observe the Sabbath and attend church service. But Jesus Christ would tell him that this was an excellent opportunity to witness to this unsaved friend. Three days in a boat in the middle of the lake; what more can a Christian ask for? I always make it a point to tell these people that violation of Sabbath law was a death penalty (Num. 15:32-36). And then I ask them: "Are you sure you want to put yourself under Sabbath law?"

It goes without saying that all sins can be forgiven by God. Jesus died for all sinners. But when we get two h*m*sexuals saved for example, we have to use Godly wisdom when we minister to them. If I were a pastor, I would have them separate from living together. Next, I would not let them both attend my church. I would send one to another church that I could trust and I would alert the pastor as to the H*mos*xual's past. And I would have my elders not only minister to him, but I would not put him in any position of trust (youth pastor for example). As time progressed, and he gained by trust and the trust of my elders, I would grant him more leeway. We must use Godly wisdom in handling these situations. Likewise, if I had a recovering alcoholic I would not trust him with the keys to the communion wine closet.

Now back on point. Most Christians I meet agree with God concerning S@xual immorality, and agree with God that h*m*s*xuality is an "abomination" and a "perversion." But when the death penalty is mentioned, most Christians go weak in the knees. God demands the death penalty for h*m*s*xuality (Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13).

At first blush, this penalty seems so harsh. But long term, His punishment is merciful. Just look at the millions who have died from just AIDS (the H*mos*xual disease). In the Middle East, some Arab contries have punishments for crimes that reflect more closely Moses' law than ours in America. But then they have some punishments that do not fit the crime, and yes, h*m*s*xuality is a crime. For example, they cut off the hand of a thief. God would never punish a thief so severly. But His death penalty for h*m*s*xuality fits the crime perfectly.

You pointed outthat they can be forgiven and get saved. But take away the stigma of h*m*s*xuality and then it is very difficult to save them. Today, G*ys are convinced by politicians, Hollywood, news media, and sadly our churches that they are most wonderful of creatures. They are not convicted by the God's laws that they are sinners. You, as a Christian, may have the cure for cancer, but try administering the cure to a man who does not believe he has cancer. God's law is the best evangelical tool we have to convict and show a sinner a need for a Savior. But we have make His law null and void.

And, most imporantly, when we refuse to obey God and put people to death, we profane God (Ezek. 13:19). And when you legalize a crime, then you have to regulate it. And that turns out to be impossible. Just imagine legalizing rape: "If you rape a woman, you have to take her to a clean, dry hotel room." I know this sounds like a silly analogy, but we have done just that with abortion. If you're a teen, you have to get your parents' permission. You have to wait 36 hours and then you can kill the baby. You have to get counsiling before you can kill the baby. You can kill the baby if the father is a criminal (rapist). And so on.

Further, the law is the great teacher. Bad law teaches bad morals; good law teaches righteousness. Also, when God's law is enforced sternly and swiftly, man will be less prone to violate God's law (Deut. 17:12-13 & Eccl 8:11).

God's death penalty laws are not optional (Num. 35:31-33). And a judge can't not show mercy. God forbids it (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Peo. 6:30-31).

I submit that we are in the pickle we are in because the Christian church has withdrawn from the fight. I attended a church here in Texas where the people inside did not want to go out and what was out they did not want to let in. Politics really determines what or whose morality we will live under. If we leave it up to unbelievers, then the morality that will be legislated can only be relative. But relative morality is no morality at all. Just as two contradictions can't both be true and the same time, so too, a particular behavior can't be both moral and immoral at the same time. When there is a vacuum, it will be filled. We Christins must endeavor to fill the vacuum with God's law. We have the mind of Christ. We are the only ones qualified to determine morality for our government. But our churches are weak and you can't get one to endorse God's penalties for crimes. I expect foolishness from Hollywood but not from our church leaders.

TeeJay

I will exercise my civic duty as a citizen to my country because it is only fair to the country I live in, but I have no biblical command to be involved politically or to join a political party. I will do what I can to promote public morality because I am a Christian and I wish to live in a decent society. But again, there is no command in scripture for Christians to be directly involved. Voicing ones opinion and voting on the issues is sufficient for our present situation, but remember that I said that the 1st century Christians didn't have either opportunity. They had to submit to tyranny whether they liked it or not & they had no voice in public affairs except through private opinions that were no doubt communicated privately.

John Bunyan's Pilgrim Progress has contributed greatly to my thinking in this matter. He depicted the pilgrim trying to escape the 'City of Destruction' (the World) as a hopeless, condemned sinner living in an equally hopeless, condemned society that is doomed to destruction no matter what the Christian does to resist evil. And resist evil we all should...but it won't change the final result. The world is going down; thank God we are not going down with it!

There are several candidates among the Republicans running for office whose ideas I can agree with in some things. And I will vote for the ones whose ideas are closer to the Bible than the others. But I hold out no illusion that any of them are going to turn America around. It's too late for that. This country will join the graveyard of empires sooner of later and though I will always favor that cause which is right and fight against that which is wrong, I don't believe America will ever even see another 'Great Awakening' as it did in yesteryear. I hope I am wrong.

As far as putting G*ys to death because of Moses law....think about it....why not go the distance? Moses law gave the death penalty for adulterers, fornicators, Sabbath breakers, b*stiality, etc. So why not kill them all? Let's therefore promote laws that will put to death people who live together out of marriage and refuse to come to church (I say this facetiously)?

Secondly, a question: since the church at Corinth had such ex-sinners in their membership then were they required by God to turn them over to the Romans for exection? Answer: No. of course the Romans didn't kill people for those offenses but that is besides the point. The church is not commanded to execute anyone; and...if the government doesn't do it then there is nothing we can do about it.

I think you're right about my neighbor. He was a little ashamed that he had not done his homework on Perry. And, although I pretty much proved him wrong, he never admitted it. His out was "that law is only for Israel." I was at a flea market and I met a member of a local very conservative Baptist church. He was campaigning for the Democratic candidate for governor and handing out pamphlets. So I asked him was his candidate pro-life or pro-abortion. He did not know. So I mildly rebuked him. I said, As a Christian first, and a Southern Baptist second, shouldn't you know if you are endorsing a man who kills babies in violation of God's law[Ex. 21:21]?" He was speechless. But this is the sad state of affairs in the church. It's not our country; it's our Christian churches that are at the heart of our problems.

Supamk, respectively, I would like you to rethink your voting for he lesser of two evils. When we have a worldview, we should always consider what is the ultimate conclusion or outcome of my belief. Let's pretend that in the next election you research the candidate running against Obama and you find out that he is more evil than Obama. So then you are forced to vote for Obama, who is ultra-extreme pro-abortion, pro-H*mos*xual and so on (the lesser of two evils). I am guilty of voting for he lesser of two evils myself. But we've been doing this since Roe v. Wade, 1967.

TeeJay

Yeah, I completely agree. Im so confused as to what we are to do, it all starts at home. Christians need to take a good hard look at themselves. I hear constantly about "whats wrong with this generation?" The answer is quite simple, the ones saying this are generally responsible because they raised this generation. If you do not raise your children with an unfaultering veiw of the bible as inherant truth then you are setting your children up for failure. Too many christians refuse to sharpen their minds, the mind is the most valuable weapon in our arsenal yet people choose to use the brain they were given for selfish reasons. I pray we may put our nation back in God's hands, they wonder why our nation is failing with the answer right before their eyes.

[quote] name='chipwag64' timestamp='1313161960' post='74031']
I would agree with Mama. I was thinking about John 8 and the woman caught in adultery also. We as Christians are a holy nation, a nation of our own, set apart from this world, just as the Jews were set apart from Gentiles. Jesus not only agreed with Jewish law, but set an even higher standard ( Matthew 5). I believe that Jesus was clearly pushing mercy and not judgment. Yes, there must be justice and punishment for crimes in all lands everywhere, but I believe that the Old Testament punishments were only for Jews, and only to show God's feelings toward sin(s).
[/quote]

Chip, Before I respond to this, I think my Post 8 does respond. If not to your satisfaction, let me know.

sigh, well sheesh when you want to kill the H*mos*xual i will be the first to die.

how about letting God judge and us teach and preach what the bible says repent and be saved. we arent to support death penalites for these sins. think that has been tried , a group called the puritans did that.

what about taking God's name in vain? death

what about cursing ones parents how many kids did that in church and or elsewhere, stone them as well
that list in romans one includes a lot more then just being a H*mos*xual.

christ said that this would come, killing all the sinners isnt the way.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313170693' post='74038']
We learn a lot about justice by studying God's laws. His justice is perfect. His law is perfect.[/quote]

ME, I discern that you have a hunger for the meat of God's word. If only we had more Christians who were hungry. Paul lamented of the Corinthian Church that they were on milk and he had to wean them off the bottle. But it's gotten worse. Today, most Christians are lactose intolerant. The milk of the Word offends them and upsets their stomachs.

My purpose for this post is to not argue so much as to get Christians to stop and rethink some of their positions on this very important subject. It is important because politics and morality determined by politicians affects just about every area of our lives--and even hinders our ability to preach the gospel.

You are correct. God's law is the Great Teacher for what is moral. And, yes, it is perfect. If this is true, then we should not add to nor take away one "jot or a tiddle." If we do, then His law is no longer perfect.

[quote]The question is, should it apply to all?

I say no, for the scripture I quoted earlier shows an example of some people who would have never became Christians if we applied God's law to all people. They would have been executed.[/quote]

Actually, ME, I would like you to rethink this. One of the strongest endorsements for God's death penalty crimes came from a criminal who was about to die: "And we [thieves on the cross] indeed justly , for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong. Then he said to Jesus, 'Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom'" (Luke 23:41-42).

This may surprise you but the first death penalty crime was not given to Israel. It was given to Noah who was not an Israelite and God gave it to him immediately upon getting off the Ark. "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed; for in the image of God He made man" (Gen. 9:6). ME, notice that in this command to Noah, there were no exceptions. God did not add an addendum which stated: But if you think that in the future there's a chance that they become obedient to Me, then don't put them to death. When murderers are put to death the same day they murder, and they are faced with the stark reality that tonight they will fall into the hands of the Judge of all the Universe, they are much more apt to get on their face and ask forgiveness. King David and the woman caught in adultery are very good examples. But you must understand that God did not grant autority to man to commute a death penalty sentence. God has authority to do this. Jesus commuted the death penalty for the woman because the Pharisees were not interested in God's justice for this woman. Their aim was to get Jesus in trouble with the Roman authorities. God commutted King David's death sentence because King David was truly repentant and God had run out of Israel tribes through which He could establish the Messianic lenage. Just about all the other Tribes messed up and God had to disinherit them concerning the line of Jesus.

[quote]In addition, we have Christ to help us to refrain from sinning. (I can cite this later if need be.) Non-christians do not have his help and therefore should not be held to the same standard of conduct with the penalty being death.
[/quote]

On the contrary. Jesus' death on the Cross is at the heart of the death penalty. God did not commute the death penalty for His only begotten Son. I agree that the Holy Spirit does help us, in that He changes us from the inside out. He changes our hearts--to the extent that we seek and listen to Him.

You wrote that we should not be held to the same standard of conduct. Actually we Christians should be held to a higher standard. Jesus said that "to whom much is given, much is expected." He said this to Israel because they had not only general revelation from the creation like the Gentiles, but He gave "special" revelation to the Jews. God expected much from His circumcision people. But sadly, Jesus lamented that he found more faith in the Gentile centurion than He did in His chosen people.

Earthly judges are not able to judge men's hearts. God did not expect them to. Rather, earthly judges are to judge the flesh. God judges the heart. When a rich, influential father get special privileges fro his son, the son becomes spoiled and more wicked. Just because we have a rich influential Daddy (God), tis does not exempt us from being punished under God's law. In the OT, God says that the king is subject to the law the same as his subjects.

ME, as we go along here, all this will become more clear as I dialogue with others.

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1313257753' post='74067']
sigh, well sheesh when you want to kill the H*mos*xual i will be the first to die.[/quote]

jason, if we were to take a poll on this web-site of its members, you would not be alone. I should have been put to death, for I broke one of God's death penalty crimes. I had an adulterous affair in my first marriage. It destroyed my marriage and I am still trying to repair family members affected by my egregious crime. Notice I did not call it a sin. Adultery is worse than just sin.

The Law is the Great Teacher. Even bad law is the Great Teacher but it has the opposite effect of God's law. If God's adultery law had been elevated to its rightful position in our nation, and if the penalty for it had been swiftly and justly enforced, I may not have had that adulterous affair. Now I probably stil would have sinned for lusting in my heart, but my family would not have suffered.

In Colorado, a very prominent religious leader (Dobson) went weak in the knees and was offended by God's law against h*m*s*xuality. Today, in Colorado, if you preach against h*m*s*xuality you can be jailed and fined. And included in this law, is a clause that permits cross-dressing men to use the ladies restroom if they are attired in women's clothes.

Most importantly, God's law is the best evangelical tool that we have. The main purposes of God's law are to deter criminals and convict sinners and show them the need for a Savior. Absent the law, why should a H*mos*xual repent. He is convinced by Hollywood, the news media, politicians, and sadly our church leaders that they are most wonderful of creatures. Why should he repent. We Christians may have the cure for cancer, but we must first convice the patient that he has cancer.

[quote]how about letting God judge and us teach and preach what the bible says repent and be saved. we arent to support death penalites for these sins. think that has been tried , a group called the puritans did that.[/quote]

This sounds good, but it's not Biblical. This is why we are in the pickle we are in at present. We Christians, who have the mind of Christ, and who are most qualified to determine what morality we will legislate, have withdrawn into the confines of our churches and hold Bible classes. John the Baptist did not do that. He confronted a king who chopped off his head. Jesus did not do that. He confronted the leadership. Just read His "Woe to you Pharisees" in Matthew. If Ester and Mordecai adhered to your philosophy, Israel would not exist. I'm glad Wilberforce thought differently or England would still have slavery. Christians sat on their hands in Colorado in the early sixties and allowed a Colorado governor to pass the first abotion law permitting abortion. Since then, well over 50 million babies have been dismembered in abortion mills alone. And if we factor in the moring after pill, the count will probably stagger us.

God has delegated authority to governments to "judge" and punish criminals. Politics determines what morality will be used to judge--man's or God's. Lately, we have witnessed the dire consequences of abandoning God's morality.

[quote]what about taking God's name in vain? death[/quote]

This comes under symbolic law, applies to Israel only, in that He had a special covenant with them. Although iit is a sin, for Israel it was a death penalty. God almost killed Moses for failure to circumcise his son by his Midionite wife Zipporah. Breaking Sabbath law was also a death penalty. And so on. Don't confuse symbolic law which was for Israel only with moral law that God wrote on our hearts.

[quote]what about cursing ones parents how many kids did that in church and or elsewhere, stone them as well
that list in romans one includes a lot more then just being a H*mos*xual.[/quote]

Symbolic law. Teaching Israel a reverence for father and mother was instrumental in teaching them a reverence for Father God. It was for Israel only.

[quote]christ said that this would come, killing all the sinners isnt the way.
[/quote]

If God's law was in effect and was swiftly and justly carried out, criminals would be few and less would die. Presently, h*m*sexuals by the millions die at their own hands. So long term, God's law is more merciful.

The Ark of the Covenant was also called the Ark of Testamony. In this Ark were three things: Miracles (Aaron's rod and bloomed. The law (stone tablets). And Jesus Christ (Manna or symbolic bread from heaven to represent Jesus who is True Bread from heaven). In giving the Great Commission to Israel, God gave them three tools for their ministry--miracles, law, and Jesus Christ. The miracles were to get their attention. The law was to convict. And Jesus Christ was to save.

Now today, in the Body of Christ, we do not have the mind blowing miracles that the Jews were to use, but we do have the law and Jesus. Now why do you want to disarm Christians by taking away the Law. Without the law, how can you convict someone he's a sinner? I really would like an answer to this.