North Korea tends to threaten quite a bit, and it mostly amounts to not. Though the idea of a North Korea that is not only nuclear armed but capable of delivering those nuclear arms is quite a scary one. Hopefully they're blowing hot-air.

The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

Well with Bin Laden now dead I suppose the US needs another boogie man, despite what one may think of the government in North Korea it's leaders aren't stupid enough to declare war on the US.

Just an question on my part here because I honestly want to hear what people here think:
Why is it that the US/UN insists on sanctioning countries and then is always surprised when these countries dislike them for it? I think the US just likes to have an enemy to point to in their news rooms.

As for having nuclear weapons I only know of one government that used them in a war and it wasn't North Korea's.

North Korea tends to threaten quite a bit, and it mostly amounts to not. Though the idea of a North Korea that is not only nuclear armed but capable of delivering those nuclear arms is quite a scary one. Hopefully they're blowing hot-air.

They're hardly a threat. They barely have the technology to get it close to our shores, if they actually had an effective delivery system that could get past our defenses then I'd be impressed. Fortunately, they don't have a way.

Well with Bin Laden now dead I suppose the US needs another boogie man, despite what one may think of the government in North Korea it's leaders aren't stupid enough to declare war on the US.

Just an question on my part here because I honestly want to hear what people here think:
Why is it that the US/UN insists on sanctioning countries and then is always surprised when these countries dislike them for it? I think the US just likes to have an enemy to point to in their news rooms.

As for having nuclear weapons I only know of one government that used them in a war and it wasn't North Korea's.

This brings up the question: when, if ever, is it ok to get involved in the affairs of another country? Another person?

I think the answer is if an entity willingly subjects itself to the rule(s) of another, ie, when a person joins an organization, or becomes a citizen of a country.

N. Korea has done so, so America and co.'s actions of imposing sanctions on them are appropriate, and approvable, imo. The parties in the UN are simply saying, "If you want to trade with us, you've got to play by our rules (the rules you agreed to, when your signed up to be a part of our group)."

Even if NK/DPRK didn't sign up to be in the UN, their actions are still appropriate. People and countries have a right to associate and not associate with others, according to their desires. In this case, it's just about the same as a group of people shunning someone because they find their actions morally reprehensible (Eg, not being friendly with the guy down the road because he beats the **** out of his kids).

Now, if that guy, out of frustration at your lack of amicability no less, threatens to attack *your kids* (while firing gunshots into the air); then you have a right to get your shotgun, brandish your teeth, and tell him to gtfo.

Make sense?

I don't know about previous sanctions, but the latest ones in UN Resolution 2094 are aimed at intercepting anything related to NK's weapons program, that may be moving through UN countries. Given by NK's latest tantrum, it seems to have struck a nerve. (Or perhaps, it's the outlined interception of certain, as yet ambiguous, "luxury items"...)

I don’t get it, why are people upset about this; they said they are targeting Washington as long as they make sure Congress is in secession at the time, I don’t see the big deal. What you’re all worried they will hit Washington when Congress is on break?

I don’t get it, why are people upset about this; they said they are targeting Washington as long as they make sure Congress is in session at the time, I don’t see the big deal. What you’re all worried they will hit Washington when Congress is on break?

No, I'm worried they might not hit Washington. Far as I'm concerned if NK took out Washington, all the politicians and lobbiests, I'd have a hard time being angry with them.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

I don't know about previous sanctions, but the latest ones in UN Resolution 2094 are aimed at intercepting anything related to NK's weapons program, that may be moving through UN countries. Given by NK's latest tantrum, it seems to have struck a nerve. (Or perhaps, it's the outlined interception of certain, as yet ambiguous, "luxury items"...)

Well I read about some of the other sanctions brought on by the US and I'm not convinced that they're doing the right thing by taking this approach.
It is the right thing from a Military standpoint but i'm talking about morality and all that stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabretooth

Just like North Korea, Iran or Russia, then?

Off the bat, I can't think of a country, that directly or indirectly, has no grand bogeyman engineering its destruction.

My country for one, I live in Ireland and the only stories I hear of that nature are either American or British, The American news always more outlandish though.

First; the UNhas the right to sanction any nation, member or not, that expects the rest of the world to play by their rules. The only reason the UN tends to leave the US alone is that we supplied not only their headquarters, but the lion share of the funds they use when they decide to act in the world; I.E, sending UN troops to the Ivory Coast required the US to supply the transport for both men and supplies.

North Korea has been pushing for over two generations that the only reason they lost the Great Patriotic War (What we call the Korean War) was that those horrible Americans stopped them. Logical in that the US footed the bill for everything but the pay for the actual soldiers. However they didn't lose that war because the Communist Chinese footed the bill for them to the tune of 2.5 million troops after Inchon, not to mention supplying them with every material need and bases for supply and fighter aircraft above the Yalu river.

One person said in a rather acrimonious argument that the reason for the non proliferation treaty was because we didn't want other nations to have the same toys we have. However hey ignored the fact that every nation that has deployed nukes has put us at the point where we're dependent on the least stable leader in those countries for peace. Saturday Night Live joked about it when they did a sketch about Nixon before he resigned and Kissinger told him they'd disabled his launch button.

Now, developing a nuke is child's play. You can find 90% of the specifics and designs online. All you need is two additional things; fissionable materials, which Korea pruduces themselves, and a delivery system, unless you intend to have the US mail deliver it for you. That is why both NK and Iran deciding they wanted to build processing centers for their spent fuel rods was the first indicator we had that they intended such a goal.Their building a processing facility is like you or I building a factory to manufacture parts just for your car. you don't do it unless it cannot be done elsewhere.

That is why the Schrub as my Ex called the Second Bush named Korea as a member of his 'Axis of Evil'. Korea has the uranium, Iraq had the delivery system, albeit short ranged. His threat then to Korea, as much as the liberal press labasted him was a repat of Kennedy's threat to Cuba; if a nuke hits anyone fired from Iraq or any nation backing terrorusts, we'll hold you personally responsible.

As for delivery systems, the Koreans do not have the range to hit DC, which is good in a way. However they can hit major Naval bases of the US in the Pacific along with Alaska and the West Coast. To have the quantum leap of hitting DC would be like Zimbabwe designing a missile in 2002 and claiming they now field a missile capable of hitting Europe. Without technical assistance from outside, it doesn't happen.

Item last, even assuming worst case scenarios where they began processing immediately after they reopened their nuclear plant in 2002, they do not have enough weapons to really matter on the worlds stage. It would be like a street gang here locally in Las Vegas threatening to destroy Metro PD. They could get a few licks in, then every nation around them with nukes would be telling them to surrender now, or face obliteration.

First; the UNhas the right to sanction any nation, member or not, that expects the rest of the world to play by their rules. The only reason the UN tends to leave the US alone is that we supplied not only their headquarters, but the lion share of the funds they use when they decide to act in the world; I.E, sending UN troops to the Ivory Coast required the US to supply the transport for both men and supplies.

That and as a permanent member of United Nation Security Council the U.S. along with France, Russia, China and the United Kingdom, pretty much have veto powers over any sanctions attempted on the United States.

So while the UN has the right to sanction the United States and the power, as long as the United States and for that matter the United Kingdom are permanent members of the Security Council the chances of the US getting sanctions are next to nil.

That said 15 to 20 years ago I would have said the same thing about North Korea getting UN sanctions, with China having veto rights, so anything is possible.

That and as a permanent member of United Nation Security Council the U.S. along with France, Russia, China and the United Kingdom, pretty much have veto powers over any sanctions attempted on the United States.

So while the UN has the right to sanction the United States and the power, as long as the United States and for that matter the United Kingdom are permanent members of the Security Council the chances of the US getting sanctions are next to nil.

That said 15 to 20 years ago I would have said the same thing about North Korea getting UN sanctions, with China having veto rights, so anything is possible.

You're ignoring the fact that if aq permanent member is being sanctioned, they are not allowed to vote on the matter. As for Korea, up until this recent unpleasantness about wanting Nukes, Kim Il Sung was a rock of stability compared to his son and Grandson. Jong Il was a man who wanted to be a movie producer/director, and as you can tell by looking at what Hollywood pumps out, how many of them have a keen grasp of what is or is not actually possible?

Right off the top of my head, I don't know what the Grandson is named, but igonring their sole patron (China) to threaten nuclear violence is not what I would call a hallmark of stability.

'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

Does anyone take North Korea seriously anymore? It's like someone continually pulling the fire alarm, and you just stop running out of the building because it's always a false alarm. I can't imagine if there will ever be a "fire" in that sense. Would they really be that dumb? They're pretty damn stupid in general...but they know they'd be annihilated.

Well I read about some of the other sanctions brought on by the US and I'm not convinced that they're doing the right thing by taking this approach.
It is the right thing from a Military standpoint but i'm talking about morality and all that stuff.

Does anyone take North Korea seriously anymore? It's like someone continually pulling the fire alarm, and you just stop running out of the building because it's always a false alarm. I can't imagine if there will ever be a "fire" in that sense. Would they really be that dumb? They're pretty damn stupid in general...but they know they'd be annihilated.

It isn't that simple. First, Kim Il Sung never threatened Nuclear annihilation. He didn't have the capability, and China had nukes, but no intercontinental delivery system until a disgruntled US Air Force employee gave them the Titan III blueprints. That was because both Mao and Deng were too unstable for Russia to assist them. So their 'big brother' wouldn't back their play.

KIm Jong Il however wanted the capability. and didn't care if he'd be backed or not. As I pointed out above, a wannabe movie director. You can create any end you want in a move, and I think, toward the end, he believed the world would let him have what he wanted. But while he couldn't deliver on his threats, we didn't shoot down his few missile tests.

Now we have Kim Jong Un, raised to believe his word is law in NK, and believes it should be with the world. Again, as I mentioned, all of NK's problems are caused by the US. Starvation in his own country, caused by sellling food overseas to 'prove' his nations productivity, is explained to his people by us not allowing them to buy their needs. The UN would not be warning about sanctions if the US did not demand them.

What worries me is that no one inside either NK or China has given any indication that he's blowing smoke. Like a poker game, we're going to come to the point where he has to show his hand, and to admit he cannot might not be possible. Look at the difference:

When the US blockaded Cuba and threatened to Nuke Russia if a missile was fired, the Russians backed down after a week of posturing because they believed us. When the Shrub threatened to nuke NK if a terrorist organization deployed a nuke, CIA reported that their contacts with such organizations dropped off. Why, because we could do it.

It might come down to 'put up or shut up. The problem is; in my estimate above, we're looking at about 4 million casualties against 30+ million because the only North Koreans who survive will be the ones in their bunkers.

addenda: I forgot the real sweet piece here; Back when the World Court was formed, a bunch of nations jumped on to the bandwagon to have the US declared as War Criminals because we used the only two nuclear weapons fired in anger. After a fierce debate, the World Court decided that using such a weapon was not in anod of itself a War Crime. However in 1996, they added that 'preemptive use of a nuclear weapon is an acceptable tactic.'

Smoke that, guys.

'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

I feel like this is big news, I'm not very plugged in to the news right now so I can't tell how big of an impact this is making but they're basically threatening war right? What's our terror alert right now? I also feel like this is a threat against the west, not just a threat against the US. Like, pushing back basically, against all the Western based globalization.

I feel like this is big news, I'm not very plugged in to the news right now so I can't tell how big of an impact this is making but they're basically threatening war right? What's our terror alert right now? I also feel like this is a threat against the west, not just a threat against the US. Like, pushing back basically, against all the Western based globalization.

You know, if it were three decades ago, 'Western Globilization' would be a real problem. However both China and India have joined that mix, so it isn't just us horrible Europeans and Americans anymore.

As for Korea, it's simple. The US, pushed the non-proliferation pact. The UN ratified it. if you look at this link; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_...uclear_Weapons you will see that except for five nations world wide, it was accepted. This is not, as that idiot I argued with back in the last century to stop other nations from advancing, it's to stabilize a very volatile issue.

Korea is catching flak because up until 2000, They were signatories. Under the treaty you are required to first publicly repudiate it, then after 90 days, you can begin production or design. Korea was, in other words, caught with their hands in the cookie jar, denied, it, whined about how mean those horrible nasty Americans are (It was the UN that caught them, and ordered them to cease and desist, not us) then boasted about what they had, and now, what they will do with it.

As I also pointed out in another post above, the reason the UN is standing back like the mother saying 'wait til your father gets home', it's because if Korea launches at anyone, they will expect us to clean up the mess, remove the problem, then get yelled at for over reacting.

'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

This is like watching two kids pushing each other in a school yard even after the teacher has told them to stop.

What the news story ignored:

Yes, the US and Russia agreed on an independant Korea, but the 38th was supposed to be whee the two armies met, not a nationl border. The problem was the Russians had already groomed Kim Il Sung to be the leader of the new nation,just as we had done the same with Rhee. When they met, the two outside nations refused to back off, so Korea has the distincton of beinjg the only nation not part of the war (Beyond having been subject to the Japanese) that was divided by fiat.

As for surprise...

In Decembe of 1949, the American Secretary of State, at a press banquet drew a line across the Pacific coast, labeling any nations we considered vital at that time to our nation's interests. These included Singapore, Taiwan, the Phillipines, and Japan. Notice the one nation not lised. This was duly
reported by the Press.

At that time, the North Koreans had been armed up to the standards of the Warsaw Pact. South Korea on the other hand, had not. We were too worried about Rhee deciding on his own reunification plans, so they were armed only up to the standards of a defensive force, little artillery, and no tanks larger than the M26 light tank. The US forces there were well armed, but this was a peacetime army under a Secretary of Defense who had cut military spending literally to the bone, so while well armed, training had been cut back due to expense. Picture a US army unit from 1936 when you had trucks marked 'tank' because you didn't have the fuel or ammunition for real live fire exercises.

Add to this the fact that few aircraft were assigned to Korea itself, most stationed in Japan instead, and we had no heavy tanks even there because American tanks were too heavy to cross the bridges in Japan. They were in Subic Bay and Manila. So our air force is in the position of Germany during the Blitz; having to waste half their flight time going to and from the front, and any tanks capable of taking on a T34 weeks away.

The only reason it took seven months to attack was because it took that long for NK to do the preparations for it.

The story also ignores that when the war started and the Air Force was asked what they could do, the answer was 'Nuke 'em into ther stone age'. We were the only country in 1950 with both nukes and a delivery sysem.

This time around? NK has two nuclear neighbors. China does not want a possible nuclear war on their border, so they aren't going to back NK, just as they have not tried to stop sanctions.

So if Kim wants to slaughter off his entire nation, he has a lot of people ready to beat him to a pulp. That's why I said it won't be just US warheads hitting him.

'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

Disregarding all that, within the context of morality, they signed their rights to be undisturbed in their evil dickery away when they joined the UN.

The point i'm trying to make I suppose is that when these sanctions are imposed on countries (like Iraq in the 90's for example), it's never the political elite but the poorer people there that feel the squeeze.
I suppose i'm saying two wrongs don't make it right.

While not a fan of North Korea I think they'd be suicidal to kick off a war while the US is backing SK.

The point i'm trying to make I suppose is that when these sanctions are imposed on countries (like Iraq in the 90's for example), it's never the political elite but the poorer people there that feel the squeeze.
I suppose i'm saying two wrongs don't make it right.

Um... okay. Soo the story you posted left off the fact that the US and South Korean military do this every year, and informed the North Koreans that they were performing these exercises. It also had hardly ANY detail at all, and seemed more about the PACIFIST DEMONSTRATION than the situation. Sooo if you want to be less informed I guess Euronews should be your source.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

Well it was more informative about the "pacifist demonstration" then the Fox News piece was seeing as it wasn't mentioned. Pure speculation on whether they could nuke Washington is much more eye-catching.
Kim Jong-un's comment about these military drills being rehearsals for invasion isn't discredited just because they do these drills annually, you could argue that adds credence to his statement.

Now we have Kim Jong Un, raised to believe his word is law in NK, and believes it should be with the world. Again, as I mentioned, all of NK's problems are caused by the US. Starvation in his own country, caused by sellling food overseas to 'prove' his nations productivity, is explained to his people by us not allowing them to buy their needs. The UN would not be warning about sanctions if the US did not demand them.

I fail to see how all the problems in NK are caused by the US. It's a well-known fact that even with our sanctions, the US sends (or up until recently they did) food, medicine, etc. as aid to the people of North Korea quite regularly. It's also known that the government/military (whatever you want to call it) steals the aid and sells it on the black market to its people.

As oppressed and isolated as the general population of NK is, they're still human, and they're not stupid. The US sends their aid with clearly marked packaging and when they finally get their hands on the food/medicine, they probably ask themselves why they are getting this stuff from the US when all their lives they've been told that the US is absolute evil. Regardless, it's the fact that they have families to feed, and they know that they can't do anything about it.

The US isn't the one who put into place a tyrannical dictator who rules with an iron fist (I think it's safe to say that he's up there with someone like Stalin or worse). People blame the United States for things like this for one reason or another...but when will people realize that the US, for so many years, had the right idea in challenging the idea of Communism (I'm not saying the ways in which it was challenged were always acceptable). People get sucked into an idea that cannot exist in the real world, and they give power to people like Kim Jong-Un.

North Korea is in the situation that it's in because the dynasty that continues to rule over the people truly believe that they are gods among men. The oppression of the people is not the result of the United States imposing its will upon what you paint as a helpless country.

I fail to see how all the problems in NK are caused by the US. It's a well-known fact that even with our sanctions, the US sends (or up until recently they did) food, medicine, etc. as aid to the people of North Korea quite regularly. It's also known that the government/military (whatever you want to call it) steals the aid and sells it on the black market to its people.

As oppressed and isolated as the general population of NK is, they're still human, and they're not stupid. The US sends their aid with clearly marked packaging and when they finally get their hands on the food/medicine, they probably ask themselves why they are getting this stuff from the US when all their lives they've been told that the US is absolute evil. Regardless, it's the fact that they have families to feed, and they know that they can't do anything about it.

The US isn't the one who put into place a tyrannical dictator who rules with an iron fist (I think it's safe to say that he's up there with someone like Stalin or worse). People blame the United States for things like this for one reason or another...but when will people realize that the US, for so many years, had the right idea in challenging the idea of Communism (I'm not saying the ways in which it was challenged were always acceptable). People get sucked into an idea that cannot exist in the real world, and they give power to people like Kim Jong-Un.

North Korea is in the situation that it's in because the dynasty that continues to rule over the people truly believe that they are gods among men. The oppression of the people is not the result of the United States imposing its will upon what you paint as a helpless country.

You obviously didn't read the comment I had made earlier. I was not saying we caused their problems, I said that the regime in charge has blamed us for all their problems, and has for sixty years. The Great Patriotic War was lost because we stuck our noses into it and convinced the UN to assist. This is actually close to accurate because the troops were supplied mainly by US dollars, guns and equipment. They also claim we have threatened them constantly since then, refused them their needs, which you pointed out is so much BS, and that the UN would not be sanctioning them now without American demands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeniVidiVicous

@Tommycat

Well it was more informative about the "pacifist demonstration" then the Fox News piece was seeing as it wasn't mentioned. Pure speculation on whether they could nuke Washington is much more eye-catching.
Kim Jong-un's comment about these military drills being rehearsals for invasion isn't discredited just because they do these drills annually, you could argue that adds credence to his statement.

The US practiced Operation Reforger; a massive deployment of US troops from the US to Europe every year from 1965 until the Wall came down, and the Russians never 'assumed' it meant we were preparing to attack. As with the exercises in Korea, we did notify the Russians that the exercises were scheduled, so accusing the US and SK of 'preparing for invasion' is ridiculous. It was like the claim that the Korean Airliner Voskaya PVO shot down was really an RC135.

The primary reason it's BS is because for the US and SK to have a reasonable chance of success, the SK would have to do a full mobilization, and there is no way SK could do that without it being noticed. You're talking about 8 million troops, and that is about 15% of their population, and forty percent of their workforce.

Editing, Checked the CIA factbook:

NK Manpower available for military service without major dislocation of the economy:
males age 16-49: 4,836,567
females age 16-49: 5,230,137 (2010 est.)

Full
Males 6,515,279
females 6,418,693

SK
Manpower available for military service without major dislocation of the economy:

keeping in mind that north korea has an alliance with china that wouljd render The US and China effectively at war. unless they defied the truce china would be at war as well. I have a feeling that given The debt China is owed that NK probably gets a silent slap from china telling them to grow up

Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things Revan... and yet you are nothing. In the end you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone."
―Darth Malak

keeping in mind that north korea has an alliance with china that wouljd render The US and China effectively at war. unless they defied the truce china would be at war as well. I have a feeling that given The debt China is owed that NK probably gets a silent slap from china telling them to grow up

If you have the chance, read Red Phoenix by Larry Bond where he portrays a second Korean War, both China and Russia (Still communist) assisted as they had before. However when Kin Jong Il (Still not the Dear Leader as he was called) refused to admit defeat, his allies abandoned them.

Now look at the modern day. Korea has probably already tried the quiet slap both with Jong Il and his son, and it slowed them down but didn't stop them.

Neither China nor Russia wants a a nuclear war on their border. If Korea pushes enough that one occurs, they will have as I pointed out, three nuclear powers ready to settle their hash.

China may have a mutual defense treaty, but as Tom Clancy commented about the constitution; 'that is not a suicide pact

'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

agreed, I just think that even as stupid as they are they will eventually come into the 'issue' that the US and Russia had during the cold war. If they press that button then they start a war where they risk all of humanity, not just their country.

Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things Revan... and yet you are nothing. In the end you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone."
―Darth Malak

agreed, I just think that even as stupid as they are they will eventually come into the 'issue' that the US and Russia had during the cold war. If they press that button then they start a war where they risk all of humanity, not just their country.

At the moment, Korea is at the same point as the Russians When we fought the last Korean war, except for one point:

At that time, there were only two nuclear powers; the US and the Soviets. The Soviets had finally developed their delivery system; the Tupolev 4. Like Korea, they had help from of all people, us.Truman was trying to maintain our industrial presence, and one way we did was start selling things like airliners overseas, starting with the Model 377 later named the Stratocruiser. The Russians, who were desperately reverse engineering the B29s that had been interned in their country bought several sets of landing gear, the one portion of the plane they had the most problems with, and had revealed it just the previous year.

Hower in 1948, while Russia was boasting about having the atom bomb, we quiet;ly announced the development of the Hydrogen bomb, and they knew we were already developing tactical nukes that could be carried by light bombers and fighters.

As I jokingly told a friend when his daddy made the same threats; this is like a street gang deciding to take on the local police of a major city. Kim doesn't have the warheads or delivery systems needed to deal a knockout blow(That is the one point I mentioned above). He'll get his few licks in, and we'll remove his country from the map. We won't reach the Mutually Assured Destruction level with them for twenty years. Before that, it will be a losing proposition. So threatening us doesn't help the situation.

This is exactly what the Nonproliferation treaty was written and passed to stop, because every new nuclear power (By estimates made by analysts, if it had not been passed there would be 40 nuclear powers now instead of eight) throws the balance of power and threat off even more. You don't have to worry much about the ones who have had them the longest; we've been there and done that already, and know it's a great deterrent, but little else. It's the new ones who want to threaten.

'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

On whose part? We have two Generations of the Kim family threatening the US with Nuclear annihilation, even if they can't pull it off beyond some casualties. The latest (More logical) threat is that they will attack US Bases.

The problem with that is not US casualties, but the fact that the 'bases' are in countries that are technically neutral, the Philippines, Japan and Okinawa, as well as South Korea. One Military Airlift command base happens to be Yokota, just outside of Tokyo, so they are threatening about 10,000 Americans, and several millions whose only crime is they can't demand that we leave.

'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?