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Re: Raki and Clare relationship

faintsmile, I guess I dont know quite what you mean by "youki represents the Will to Power." to me the claymore power has always been just a magnification of a struggle of all humans. Everyone has an inner monster so to speak and we all deal with it, the claymore's on the other hand have a much more real and external struggle, they are fighting not just their inner nature, but a real other monster that wants to take over, and the consequences for a claymore giving in are a little more severe as they dont get second chances. Much like magic in most stories I see yoki as just a visual/external representation of normally internalized conflicts. The stakes get played up but in the end we can all relate to the stories still because we all deal with similar things. Personally I never have a problem with that magnifying glass being taken away so long as the internal struggle has been resolved.

As for the aging thing, it is true that its not explained particularly well in the series, like several other little details they still seem to be evolving ideas but there is a difference in how claymores function vs that of a human. The differences to me just add up to something that just makes it difficult for me to see them growing old together the same way that I always imagine growing old together with the love of my life. Like in most stories the better we relate the more we enjoy them, and for it would just be better if she became human again. If I were to write it would end up being a unique situation for Clare, perhaps a last gift from Teresa.

Re: Raki and Clare relationship

You are right about the youki.

The Will to Power is Nietzsche's description of the individual's instincts to survive, which is best summed up as "life is theft" to paraphrase Proudhon's "property is theft". Humans have an illusory sense of self that leads them to believe they are separate from themselves (so they think "I think therefore I am" instead of "I am that I am"). This enables them to despise a part of themselves as monstrous or animalistic, and to fight against their nature with disastrous results.

And humans tend to fight against the part of their nature that they see as animalistic or monstrous. But Teresa doesn't feel anything's bad about her youma half, because she sees humans in the same way that she sees youma. She's the overman, she's above all that!

"There is a beast in man that deserves to be exercised not exorcised." - Anton Szandor LaVey

Re: Raki and Clare relationship

Originally Posted by Rebel L

As for the aging thing, it is true that its not explained particularly well in the series, like several other little details they still seem to be evolving ideas but there is a difference in how claymores function vs that of a human. The differences to me just add up to something that just makes it difficult for me to see them growing old together the same way that I always imagine growing old together with the love of my life. Like in most stories the better we relate the more we enjoy them, and for it would just be better if she became human again. If I were to write it would end up being a unique situation for Clare, perhaps a last gift from Teresa.

Or if Raki became a Claymore too. :P

We know that before, the Claymore were all men.
And he was actually trained by one of them, right?

I don't think it's going to happen since right now Raki represents the "normal human" fighting against the enemies.
So, it would kind of ruin it if he became a Claymore too.

If Yagi wants to go with the "eternal young and in love" ending, it can be possible with Raki becoming a Claymore...
Although, this kind of ending works better with cheesy stuff like Twilight than it would with something like Claymore, IMO...

True love will conquer everythingThe question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
___________________

Re: Raki and Clare relationship

We know that before, the Claymore were all men.
And he was actually trained by one of them, right?

I don't think it's going to happen since right now Raki represents the "normal human" fighting against the enemies.
So, it would kind of ruin it if he became a Claymore too.

If Yagi wants to go with the "eternal young and in love" ending, it can be possible with Raki becoming a Claymore...
Although, this kind of ending works better with cheesy stuff like Twilight than it would with something like Claymore, IMO...

this just reminded me of something,correct me if i'm wrong i due drink alot.but,raki did get stab by priscilla and he survived.the org tampered with him obviously...because they had him locked up for a reason...don't believe they were afraid of his sword skills.this maybe an open door for raki to be with a claymore or an awakened being.maybe even have a little claymore...lol

but in hind sight,i'm pushing 40yrs old...so take it from me,there isn't anything better than a 19/20 yr old.so think how lucky raki would still be if he is just human...he could be 80yrs old and hitting a tight young package...lol

Re: Raki and Clare relationship

Originally Posted by faintsmile1992

You are right about the youki.

The Will to Power is Nietzsche's description of the individual's instincts to survive, which is best summed up as "life is theft" to paraphrase Proudhon's "property is theft". Humans have an illusory sense of self that leads them to believe they are separate from themselves (so they think "I think therefore I am" instead of "I am that I am"). This enables them to despise a part of themselves as monstrous or animalistic, and to fight against their nature with disastrous results.

And humans tend to fight against the part of their nature that they see as animalistic or monstrous. But Teresa doesn't feel anything's bad about her youma half, because she sees humans in the same way that she sees youma. She's the overman, she's above all that!

"There is a beast in man that deserves to be exercised not exorcised." - Anton Szandor LaVey

I am curious then, do you agree with Ilena's assessment of Clare making Teresa weak? Do you see the effect Clare had on Teresa as a positive or a negative?

Re: Raki and Clare relationship

Originally Posted by Rebel L

I am curious then, do you agree with Ilena's assessment of Clare making Teresa weak? Do you see the effect Clare had on Teresa as a positive or a negative?

Clare had a positive effect on Teresa by allowing her to fulfill her natural maternal instincts, just as Clare was later beginning to have her feminine urges to mate satisfied by travelling with Raki, and leading to her rebellion against the org. That's why there wasn't anything bad about her death because Yagi is exploring the Nietzschean theme of amor fati, which is also why Teresa can't come back into Claymore.

And its better to die the way you lived than growing old.

"I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer." - Nietzsche

"My formula for greatness in a human being is amor fati: that one wants nothing to be different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely bear what is necessary, still less conceal it—all idealism is mendaciousness in the face of what is necessary—but love it." - Nietzsche

"Companionate love is an intimate, non-passionate type of love that is stronger than friendship because of the element of long-term commitment. 'This type of love is observed in long-term marriages where passion is no longer present' but where a deep affection and commitment remain. The love ideally shared between family members is a form of companionate love, as is the love between close friends who have a platonic but strong friendship."

Except there's also sexual passion as seen when Clare kisses Raki, but as a kuudere she didn't express it before the kiss, so it didn't bond them together whatever was on their minds.

If they reunite as lovers, it will turn into consummate love. ^_^

"Consummate love is the complete form of love, representing an ideal relationship toward which people strive. Of the seven varieties of love, consummate love is theorized to be that love associated with the “perfect couple.” According to Sternberg, these couples will continue to have great sex fifteen years or more into the relationship, they cannot imagine themselves happier over the long-term with anyone else, they overcome their few difficulties gracefully, and each delight in the relationship with one other."

I guess this is why I find them an attractive couple, I might feel intensely but (believe it or not) I'm pretty much asexual physically, though I like the teasing stuff, like Clare enjoyed offering to smile for Raki-chan. Clare shows a cat-like love because Raki's her 'master' who she hangs around, and she loves the care and the attention she gets from him, even though she doesn't actually need it, but he won't ever own her, because shes too strong willed and independent. When he proved his usefulness to her in Rabona, she was his. Raki just accepts her as she is, and not just as a young girl instead of a monster, he accepts her weirdness without questioning or trying to change it.

Re: Raki and Clare relationship

and technically, Teresa was always "weak", as she has never killed a Claymore, nor a good person (the bad bandits deserved death).

Yes, Irene does say that the old Teresa would have killed Claymore Priscilla without hesitation...

however, does Irene mean this literally... or is Irene merely referencing that Teresa was much more cruel in the past, but not necessarily more literally "murderous" ???

so, while Irene's statement is ambigious, what we do have, is that we've never been shown Teresa killing a Claymore (applying this, we must ask if Rosemary hadn't Awakened, would Teresa have killed her still?).

In fact (but yes while under Clare's "softening"), Teresa disabled many Claymores, long before (ch ~ 20 ish) Miria does at the Org HQs (ch ~ 90 or 100 ish).

Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 06, 2011 at 03:24 PM.

"The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

"I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

Re: Raki and Clare relationship

I don't see how Teresa was already becoming weak before she met Clare, HK, because I don't see how not killing people is a sign of weakness. Furthermore without the Org's rule against killing humans I'm sure she would have done so sooner, not because she wants violence but because she wants to be left alone, and that's why Clare wasn't joking when she swung her sword towards Raki for following her, either.

Motherhood does soften psychopaths (which is what Teresa is), and psychopaths aren't necessarily violent to begin with either.

Re: Raki and Clare relationship

and technically, Teresa was always "weak", as she has never killed a Claymore, nor a good person (the bad bandits deserved death).

Yes, Irene does say that the old Teresa would have killed Claymore Priscilla without hesitation...

however, does Irene mean this literally... or is Irene merely referencing that Teresa was much more cruel in the past, but not necessarily more literally "murderous" ???

so, while Irene's statement is ambigious, what we do have, is that we've never been shown Teresa killing a Claymore (applying this, we must ask if Rosemary hadn't Awakened, would Teresa have killed her still?).

In fact (but yes while under Clare's "softening"), Teresa disabled many Claymores, long before (ch ~ 20 ish) Miria does at the Org HQs (ch ~ 90 or 100 ish).

I am not sure how you are defining "weak", the weakness I see being discussed by Ilena is about letting emotion into a fight. Teresa before Clare is shown as generally lacking compassion and empathy (although during the Rosemary scene we see that perhaps Teresa was not totally lacking in those qualities as she seems genuinely concerned that Rosemary may have awakened due to her not getting there soon enough). Making tactical decisions based on empathy or compassion rather than non emotional assessment of the situation often leads to disaster.

When Teresa chose not to kill opponents like the claymore trying to execute her or the other 3 members of the hit team sent after her it was out of a position of strength, not weakness. It is far more difficult to land a disabling blow than a killing blow, it is usually a sign of a much superior fighter that can disable an opponent while that opponent is determined to end the others life. When during the fight with Priscilla she attempts to land a killing blow she is thinking of Priscilla as an opponent in battle who poses a potential threat, while later when she decides to spare her it is because she was no longer able to treat Priscilla as just an opponent, but rather a frightened little girl crying for her daddy.

Not being able to stay focused on the non emotional side would certainly be described as a weakness in a "fighting machine", but as Ilena also observed the "person" Teresa seemed to have gained some contentment and joy in the process. Ilena's later remarks that she was envious of Teresa for finding that happiness in her life and giving her arm to Clare to help preserve the memory of Teresa would seem to indicate that she thought it a good tradeoff.

Re: Raki and Clare relationship

Originally Posted by Rebel L

When Teresa chose not to kill opponents like the claymore trying to execute her or the other 3 members of the hit team sent after her it was out of a position of strength, not weakness. It is far more difficult to land a disabling blow than a killing blow, it is usually a sign of a much superior fighter that can disable an opponent while that opponent is determined to end the others life. When during the fight with Priscilla she attempts to land a killing blow she is thinking of Priscilla as an opponent in battle who poses a potential threat, while later when she decides to spare her it is because she was no longer able to treat Priscilla as just an opponent, but rather a frightened little girl crying for her daddy.

Exactly, killing is not a pleasure in itself its just a way to solve a problem, and purposefully hurting or killing the weak isn't fun, and unless you get something that's necessary out of it, its just pathetic.

Re: Raki and Clare relationship

weak = soft, caring, more merciful, less cruel, etc

"The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

"I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin