Chapter 11: God-given reason does not take a stand against immorality…

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Were God-given reason to prevail, rather than knee-jerk religion, we would not be having a heated debate over gay marriage. “Liberty and justice for all,” marvel at the diversity of creation, welcome for one another: these, alas, are true biblical values.

Yep, people like me are so clueless, and promote arguments that are “Irrational…and just a fiction of blind conviction…”

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Do not fight with one another over my banning. I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave. It is what I want.

...yeah, even though this guy's conclusions agree (more or less) with mine, his arguments aren't worth paying attention to. This is almost as bad as the denominational embarrassment that was Bishop Spong.

tl;dr, except, from what I've been able to glean from this thread, jmfcst is dissecting something by a particularly bizarre and incompetent example of a 'scholar' who disagrees with his interpretation of the Bible. I'm not sure if he thinks that this disqualifies other such scholars from being taken seriously or not

Hate to shake you up, but this “bizarre and incompetent example of a 'scholar'“ has presented the very same arguments us regulars on this board have heard a 1000 times. In fact, one just might begin to get the impression that arguments like the ones presented in this article are the "best" the world has to offer in its attempt to make homosexuality mesh with the bible.

But, hey, if you know of a better example of a “scholar”, please name him so that we can examine his arguments, for the arguments we heard over the last 10 years on this Forum have been exceptionally butt-stupid, to say the least.

In fact, they’ve even lead unbelievers like Dibble to conclude homosexuality doesn’t mesh with the bible. So, maybe you could help save your bible’s reputation by giving us a name to a “scholar” who really knows what he is talking about.

It's sad. There are much more competent ways of making these arguments (and other, far better, arguments, ones that don't elide large sections of history and interpretation) but I read what you're quoting from and it's just an incoherent mess.

This is really the point isn't it? Why people cling to this 'bible' is simply inexplicable. Just chuck it and believe whatever you like folks - the act of belief is precisely the same either way - a kind of intellectual bed-wetting.

This is really the point isn't it? Why people cling to this 'bible' is simply inexplicable. Just chuck it and believe whatever you like folks - the act of belief is precisely the same either way - a kind of intellectual bed-wetting.

The function of the Bible isn't as a self-help tool, opebo. Use of an external locus of belief has a social aspect that 'believing whatever you like' doesn't.

What if one believes whatever one likes and that happens to be the Creeds or the Sutras of an existing religion?

...Wait, this guy claims the Centurion's servant was actually his lover?

That's...not one I've heard before. That's a really weird direction to take that passage.

Mikado....going off on a tanget here...but what exactly is your story? In another thread, it was stated you were once a member of Judaism - which explains your knowledge of the OT. But it also seems you have read the NT. Correct? If so, what is your impression of it?

(forgive me if I forgetting past conversations with you on this topic - my memory retention in regard to this forum is extremely poor)

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Do not fight with one another over my banning. I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave. It is what I want.

...Wait, this guy claims the Centurion's servant was actually his lover?

That's...not one I've heard before. That's a really weird direction to take that passage.

Mikado....going off on a tanget here...but what exactly is your story? In another thread, it was stated you were once a member of Judaism - which explains your knowledge of the OT. But it also seems you have read the NT. Correct? If so, what is your impression of it?

(forgive me if I forgetting past conversations with you on this topic - my memory retention in regard to this forum is extremely poor)

I was a Jew, and a pretty firmly convinced one, until a point when I had a sudden realization that I was just going through the motions and didn't actually believe the words I was saying, which caused me to reevaluate my stance. I realized that I had actually held onto Judaism longer because the liturgy was in Hebrew, leading me to not have to seriously interface with the message because I was more focused on correct pronunciation and memorization than the meaning of the words I was saying.

I had always been interested in theology and had been assigned several of the Gospels in my 10th grade Literature class at my (secular) high school. I decided to read the NT (not straight through, but book by book over the course of years). I had already read most of the OT and have since read the rest (not straight through, again: Psalms is not meant to be read that way). I was legitimately interested to see if the Bible could convince me, in part because I've always had a fondness for (certain types of) Christianity. It would be far easier for me to become a Christian than to return to Judaism, with which I have a number of problems. In college, I had to read several major Christian texts, Augustine's City of God Against the Pagans being the most prominent. I respect Augustine: don't share his faith, but he's a great example of how a hyper-intelligent man can come to terms with Christianity and accept it on its own terms.

In general, I'm very interested in seeing where other people are coming from and I also have a passion for reading the "classics," so I interface with a lot of religion. Just over a year ago, I undertook the project of reading the Koran, which was...mildly disappointing. The Koran simply is not nearly as good on a literary level as the Bible is.

I was about to go into a rant about how this guy should just give up Christianity as a whole I think it should also be pointed out that what is in the Bible has come about from thousands of years of authorships and interpretation. Sure, an argument can be made that the Earth is literally 6,000 years old, Noah really did get two of every animal in the ark, Biggie and Tupac are partying with Elvis and Buddy Holly in Madagascar, but that's missing the point. A lot of what is seen in the Bible is interpretations from the writing styles of the Hebrew and Greek authors. The footnotes of many Bibles themselves confirm this.I guess what I'm saying is that acting like every word of the Bible is a word that came directly from God is disingenuous (although frankly, I don't take the idea of him seriously now days). God doesn't just ZAP! BOOM! Bibles into existence folks, what you're reading is the texts of ancient men from ancient cultures.

On the issue of gays anybody could make any type of argument based on what is said in the Bible. Frankly, it's like people who make arguments for abortion based off of biblical passages. You can take any of THE MILLIONS (and millions) of the Bible's Passages and come out with a different interpretation.

Does this mean the scholar is right? I don't think so. Because his argument is one that is LATHERED IN INCOMPETENCE. And Jmfcst is clearly not as dumb as mud, given his thorough background and understanding of the Bible that seems to elipse this "scholar".

My god this "scholar" is an incompetent embarrassment...his argument is one that is LATHERED IN INCOMPETENCE.

Four things to note:

1) I didn’t single this guy out, rather I noticed his article because it was given the most amount of space on the front page of cnn.com that day, and after opening the article and reading just enough to understand what side he was on, I created this thread without reading the rest because I was 100% convinced he would turn out to be a) dishonest, and b) illogical.

2) His arguments are nothing new, as most, if not all, of them have been discussed numerous times on this board.

3) He is no more dishonest and incompetent as any other “scholar” or layman trying to make homosexuality agree with the bible.

4) The fact this man, as intellectually dishonest and incompetent as he is, is in the position he is in within the American education system, speaks volumes as to what is going on in the West. Homosexuality is being pushed by the media, and by the education system, and by the courts, and by many seminaries of many churches. It doesn’t matter to them if their argument has any merit, or is even honest. They don’t care! Their consciences have been seared to the point they are themselves deceived by their own deception.

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Do not fight with one another over my banning. I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave. It is what I want.

He teaches psychology at the University of West Georgia. He isn't even operating within his discipline, which would be acceptable if and only if he were not presenting his arguments in incoherent ways and posturing for a mass-media audience. That does happen to be, whether you went in singling him out or not, a level of academic ineptitude above and beyond not actualizing parts of the Bible that you think should be actualized. If he doesn't already have tenure this can and should be grounds for denying it.

He teaches psychology at the University of West Georgia. He isn't even operating within his discipline, which would be acceptable if and only if he were not presenting his arguments in incoherent ways and posturing for a mass-media audience. That does happen to be, whether you went in singling him out or not, a level of academic ineptitude above and beyond not actualizing parts of the Bible that you think should be actualized. If he doesn't already have tenure this can and should be grounds for denying it.

he is still typical of everyone who attempts to make homosexuality mesh with the bible, for he makes the same arguments heard a thousand times on this board. If you think he is not typical, and since you are unwilling to walk us through the scripture yourself (or even point out the errors of those who hold an opposing view), then please provide an example of someone who is.

Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning. I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave. It is what I want.

The fact this man, as intellectually dishonest and incompetent as he is, is in the position he is in within the American education system, speaks volumes as to what is going on in the West. Homosexuality is being pushed by the media, and by the education system, and by the courts, and by many seminaries of many churches. It doesn’t matter to them if their argument has any merit, or is even honest. They don’t care! Their consciences have been seared to the point they are themselves deceived by their own deception.[/b]

Well, what do you expect? People interact with homosexuals and don't see all of them as inherently awful human beings and view their sexuality as an unimportant and irrelevant component of their personality. Obviously it's easier to resort to intellectual dishonesty instead of 100% renouncing what they've believed in their entire lives. Instead of jumping through hoops trying to justify homosexuality, they should just call the biblical analysis of homosexuality stupid and leave it at that. There's really not much more to it, and if God wants to throw all homosexuals into hell for eternity I guess that's His perogative.

He teaches psychology at the University of West Georgia. He isn't even operating within his discipline, which would be acceptable if and only if he were not presenting his arguments in incoherent ways and posturing for a mass-media audience. That does happen to be, whether you went in singling him out or not, a level of academic ineptitude above and beyond not actualizing parts of the Bible that you think should be actualized. If he doesn't already have tenure this can and should be grounds for denying it.

he is still typical of everyone who attempts to make homosexuality mesh with the bible, for he makes the same arguments heard a thousand times on this board. If you think he is not typical, and since you are unwilling to walk us through the scripture yourself (or even point out the errors of those who hold an opposing view), then please provide an example of someone who is.

I'm not unwilling. I haven't had time, partially because I don't think it's of such paramount importance as you do. Assuming I can find the thread again, I'll get back to you on the Adam and Eve thing the next time I have a slow writing day, I swear.

Sarah Coakley's work is more indicative of ways of treating this that actually make some sense.