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Reparative Therapy II: You Want Me to Measure My What?

When my husband began reparative therapy I was quite anxious. He was “prescribed” weekly individual and group sessions. Initially, it was the idea of group sessions with other same sex attracted men which worried me. At the time, I couldn’t imagine how such connections could benefit him without foiling the goals of the therapy. The goal of the reparative therapy was to lessen my husband’s unwanted same sex attractions and replace those with opposite sex attraction. It was explained to me during my first individual visit with the therapist, that the group sessions provided the guys attending with a safe place to be transparent without fear of judgment. Ideally, and in the form of a secondary goal, my husband would progress to the point that he would no longer need group therapy because, in time, he’d learn to be comfortable and transparent with other men who didn’t share his specific struggle. I was also assured that there was a zero tolerance policy enforced when it came to inappropriate relations between group members.

In the beginning, I visited the therapist individually about once a month or so. During my first visit, I had two primary questions for him: “How long will it take?”, and “What are the chances that this will work?” During one of our early couples sessions, (the process involved a great many sessions, as you can imagine) we’d had the discussion and come to an agreement of what a “normal” sexual relationship would look like for us. The reply I received for a reasonable time frame for therapy to “work” was 18 months. I was told that my husband suffered from arrested development and was “stuck” emotionally at around the age of twelve-years-old. Unfortunately, based on several incidents that had occurred in the months prior to my husband revealing his secrets of attraction to me, this diagnosis made a great deal of sense to me at the time. As to the question of the chances of the therapy working for my husband, the answer was that it tended to be more effective for those who had more at stake. I was told that the motivation of staying married and keeping a family together was a primary factor in the success of many men in their battle against same sex attraction.

There were some bizarre strategies employed in my husband’s reparative therapy. However, I’ll attempt to put them in context lest it sound completely implausible that anyone could possibly agree to such methods. Tdub didn’t “come out” to me of his own free will. At the point he did come out, I had become suicidal due to the very troubled nature of the marriage as well as circumstances surrounding it. We both viewed reparative therapy as the only hope for our union. When something you deem holy, right, and good is on the line for you, it’s possible to lose touch with a bit of common sense. At least that’s how I now justify my almost unquestioning acceptance of some of the bizarre and risky practices that went on in our therapy experiences. It’s going to be easier for me to just list those, so here goes:

The therapist, who was always in stocking feet, would often rub his foot on Tdub’s leg (This occurred in couples session; I witnessed this.) I found this a bit awkward and, assuming it went on in his individual sessions, I asked Tdub about it. He admitted that it made him feel awkward at first but that he’d gotten used to it and it was just a part of the therapist’s “way”. He later went on to mention that the therapist sort of played the role of a father figure and was teaching them lessons about safe and affirming male touch.

I was once told to hold Tdub’s penis in my hand as we fell asleep. After a week or two of this, Tdub would be suddenly and inexplicably inflamed with desire for me. I was given a second-hand testimonial from the therapist as to the effectiveness of this practice as he said he’d had other clients try it with success. (btw, as embarrassed as I was to even mention the strategy to Tdub, he flat refused to allow it and I was relieved that he did)

The therapist suggested to Tdub that masturbating while thinking of nothing sexual in particular might eventually lead to opposite sex desires. Some of the other guys reported starting out with nothing in particular in mind and then working their way up to visions of women. While this is not specifically part of “my” story I did occasionally overhear the guys talking about it, so, as the wife of one of them, it becomes relevant to my story.

During worship times at group therapy the guys laid on the floor amongst pillows. I had a heart-to-heart conversation with one of the guys at an ex-gay barbecue (we really had them, although I’m pretty sure most Texans don’t also enjoy things like Brie, feta bruschetta, and black bean hummus as accompaniments to their grilled steaks) one of the guys told me that he got an erection once while lying next to a fellow struggler. He was relating this as a success story in that he was able to overcome his desire and continue participating in the group.

I overheard the guys talking and laughing a few times about the measuring (length, not circumference) of their penises. Tdub confirmed to me that this was one of the tasks assigned to them by the therapist and that they were even supposed to share their findings with the group. I’ve since asked Tdub what the purpose of that exercise was and his memory is vague because, and I quote him here, “I thought it was stupid and I never did it. It wasn’t any of their business.” He thinks it had something to do with some sort of macho male affirmation thing. Who knows.

At group, the guys would gather around one member, lift them up, and hold and rock them. All the guys I heard speak of this, including Tdub, found it to be an extremely comforting and affirming activity. For Tdub, and I’m relating things he’s shared with me, this activity did provide him with a feeling of safety and security that he’d never experienced. It was supposed to provide (as best I can gather from all I’ve heard and been told about it) what many men, like Tdub, never received and always longed for from their fathers. Over the course of the time we were involved with the therapy and the social group surrounding it, I overheard many positive comments about this experience.

I hope I’ve done a better job of stating plainly what I’ve experienced in this segment than the last. My narratives are only unique in that they come from a different perspective than has been told at XGW. It’s like the story of the three blind guys placed at various points around an elephant: head, tail, leg. Each were feeling the same elephant, but provided different bits of description based on their position in regards to it. I’d also like to add that my ex-husband is a personal friend, and he is supportive of my telling his story from my perspective. Further, I’ll clarify that I’d previously mentioned my Christian world-view not because I question the Christianity of any readers or fellow authors at XGW, but because I respect those who subscribe to other religious belief systems, and I believe an awareness of my Christian bias might provide insight to my perspective. I’m going to step back from this post after publishing it and not comment any further. It is what it is.

In my third and final installment of this series I will provide my current state of mind in regards to all of this.

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28 Comments

There seems little doubt how the therapist has chosen to “deal with his same-sex attractions.”

What an ordeal for both of you. It does put your earlier personal blog entries in context, however. I’m glad that you have been able to maintain your sweet spirit through all of that, and I hope someone out there will find your description helpful before possibly deciding to take the same road.

I overheard the guys talking and laughing a few times about the measuring (length, not circumference) of their penises. Tdub confirmed to me that this was one of the tasks assigned to them by the therapist and that they were even supposed to share their findings with the group. I’ve since asked Tdub what the purpose of that exercise was and his memory is vague…He thinks it had something to do with some sort of macho male affirmation thing. Who knows.

Perhaps the therapist had a personal benefit from learning the group’s “measurements.” Unfortunately, there is precedent for such things happening. Kudos for such bravery, to everyone involved with telling this story – it’s very personal.

Every time I read of your Netname for your exhusband, Tdub, I cannot help but think of the woman I thought would save me. Tdub was a short-hand name we had for her. I loved her madly or perhaps my madness was a love for her. I dunno. All I know is that contemplating that love for her led to my realization that thinking of myself as bisexual and possibly having a life with her was impossible. In that moment it struck me that all the love I felf for her could not be realized in an intimate relationship with her. That fulfillment only could be found with another man.

I was indeed a moment of sheer joy and yet sad, because I loved her and a piece of me always shall. But it is certainily not as sad as the breakup of a marriage. And yes, we are still fast friends.

I don’t want to scare you but I was her third gay man. She’s not sure if she attracts them (could be her boy-cut hair) or if she somehow looks for them. But the idea of being a gay-man magnet doesn’t seem to ring true to me.

But about therapy…. I’ve always been told (by therapists) and generally agree that if it seems too odd for you to do in therapy, then it probably is.

WOW. Um – As a woman, I have never heard of any of my friends going through such to work on their same sex attractions. I have heard that groups vary tremendously from place to place and from facilitator to facilitator – is that true?

Thanks for this, Pam. I’m so sorry you and Tdub had to go through that ordeal.

I was told that my husband suffered from arrested development and was “stuck” emotionally at around the age of twelve-years-old.

I absolutely hate the notion that gay men are developmentally “stuck.” I’m not even 19 yet, and the concept is completely insulting to me. Again, I’m sorry you and Tdub had to go through such a bizarre and painful time.

The “holding” activity actually makes sense to me. When I was closeted, I was petrified of male intimacy because I was always afraid that it would go awry (and did).

In the gay dad’s support group that’s been part of my journey since coming out and getting divorced, one of the most affirming and encouraging things they do is at the end of the meeting, everybody gathers for a group hug. It’s non-sexual, affectionate and was tremendously affirming and liberating when I was participating regularly.

I am very thankful to the Lord Jesus that I did not have to go through what your ex-husband did, Pam. And, I am glad that I stopped trying to be an ex-homosexual on my own and just having some people pray with me that I would be changed while I was working in Missouri. When I moved back to Oklahoma in the summer of 1971 and lived with my parents officially for the almost next 13 years, I never mentioned to my family nor folks in the Assembly of God church I attended about my struggles of guilt for just being me.

I had found out about Exodus in the AG’s weekly magazine, The Pentecostal Evangel, not long after it was founded in 1976. The AG still continues to support Exodus International.

And I am thankful that I never got married while I was in denial of my sexual orientation. But, I did want to get married and every woman whom I dated lived the kind of Christian life I expected for anyone to live. One lady whom I dated, while working on a MEd., did get married and at a Chi Alpha Fellowship reunion picnic, she had to introduce me to her husband and tell him how much I gave her support spiritually while she was working on her BA. Chi Alpha Fellowship is the secular college organization for AG students so that they can have fellowship with other Pentecostal students.

I left the closet completely behind when I left Tulsa, Oklahoma and moved to Los Angeles in March 1984.

Oh, the kind of therapy Tdub went though is very similar to what Richard Cohen uses.

This not having the right relationship with one’s father and not having a father who would show natural affection does not apply to me. Dad did not know everything a father ought to know; but, I certainly could not have had another father who loved me as much as he did and in the same way.

Mary, my reparative therapy used some bizarre techniques–not quite like these, but bizarre. So I do suspect that it varies from group to group. In my group, we had to play sports and hang around straight men. We were taught not to cross our legs in certain ways and not to move our hands in certain mannerisms. There was hypnotism, which was strange because it was a church group and the church was against hypnotism. All of it seemed ridiculous to me personally.

Pam, sister/friend you are tremendously brave for sharing this. I have nothing but compassion for you and T-dub.

This stuff has GOT TO STOP!!!
These ‘therapeutic’ methods are based on non supportable THEORIES, not actual or sound science and results.

The touching and all that…stems from the theory that gay males in particular don’t get enough same sex affection from their father unit or ever learned about proper masculinity based on the foreshadowing of fathers by mothers.

THAT in itself doesn’t make a lot of sense. Indeed, the emasculation of the BLACK household of fathers should be producing a bumper crop of gay men, by that logic.
Nor explains the average percentage of homosexuality in PATRIARCHAL homes that Latino, Asian and Orthodox Jewish represent.
And something tells me, that such therapy that requires serious money…I doubt people of color are represented.
Would I be right about that, Pam? Were Latinos or blacks represented in the groups or bbq’s you and T-dub went to?

This reminds me also that few couples where one is gay….open the quality of their intimacy and sex lives with anyone. No one really asks, nor does anyone volunteer to talk about it.

There is a silent wall of privacy around married couples that no one breaches when it comes to that part of their lives.

And considering all the others who share your situation, Pam…mixed marriage is a BIG MISTAKE, propagated by religious communities mostly, but with expectations by the straight world at large.

When the ex gay industry keeps harping on or repeating the words or definition of ‘struggling’ with same sex attraction.

The truth is, the struggle is WITH heterosexuals, and struggling to BE heterosexual or give the appearance of heterosexuality.

This patently horrendous intellectual dishonesty and disconnect…has to be challenged at EVERY turn.

I asked every last alleged heterosexual who have come in here, like Warren Throckmorton, DL Foster, and Alan Chambers…did they EVER imagine or would they be honest about what they thought their lives would be like if homosexuality was as accepted and supported as heterosexuality…in what way would the struggle be defined by then?

DL Foster outright acted like I asked him to swallow razor blades and the others chose to pretend I didn’t ask.

The question is still hanging out there, waiting.
And it’s paramount to the issue of being ex gay or wanting to be.
Just as bringing up the Clark study and the damage that Jim Crow policy and white supremacy did to the psyche of black children has relevance in this too.

I especially resent Throckmorton’s ignoring me, and not the other folks here.
I already told him, with Dr. in front of his name, and if I were one of his students, I’d expect him to be CANDID, since these people are SO PROUD of what they are and do.

He told me I wasn’t one of his students. And that was that.
This was YEARS ago. At least five years ago. And the only time he addressed me here, was when I accidentally mentioned that he supported Paul Cameron’s work. And that was terse as well.

He was unfriendly from the beginning. So it’s not really because of my impatience here.
Snubs seem to become some ex gays. Mostly men…little ol me thought they’d be able to hold up better than that.

Guess I gave them too much credit before. But I won’t now.

This treatment that you and T-dub went through looks like a bit of the power trip on the part of the therapist. I notice that DL Foster behaved that way too. As an outside observer, these men are all in positions heads above who they deal with every day. It’s either teacher or preacher. The center of attention who won’t or don’t expect a challenge from us ‘lesser’ intellects.
Even the friendlier Chad Thompson does the same thing.

I was reading another account of the Nazi programs against the Jews.
And part of what they did was called insanity.

I thought about that, and the blog threads generated by articles on recent gay issues in the news.

I remember mentioning to some of the posters that they had limited range of engagement. They either sermonized, or referenced the usual biased sources on gay life.
Actual GAY PEOPLE apparently, wasn’t part of their average source of reliable information or interaction.

I told them their pattern of behavior looked insane. That it was strange at first to ever argue with a gay person about whether or not being gay was a choice. And THEN, to attribute the different social results regarding gay lives, as if there was a precedent of the same treatment to reach those results.

Also insane and not very smart.
They don’t like being called prejudiced…even if that’s exactly what they are.

Anyway, I think the same could be said of these methods and so called ‘treatment’ for a characteristic that has no urgency or necessity to fix, and causes more problems than does good, when straight people intervene on THEIR terms using THEIR characteristics as a model.
And failures are not blamed on their incompetence with recognizing this characteristic as legit, but on the gay person who can’t BE them!

Again, a symptom of insanity.

Nazis sometimes thought they were doing Jews a favor. Sometimes were frustrated that their job was so difficult. Those Jews, so resistant to the reason and plans of the Nazi mind.
Such STRUGGLE the Jews had on their hands, after all, things would have gone SO much easier for them if they didn’t resist.

The Nazi Final Solution’s methodology was unspeakably cruel. Beyond human comprehension. But they DID accomplish much of it, in a small amount of time, with the cooperation of many millions of the neighbors of these Jews.

I don’t think it’s too much of an exaggeration to call the Exodus, Love Won Out or Living Waters plan…
The Final Solution-Lite.

Their methods are different, but the aim is the same. No more homos. A world without the voices, experience and uniqueness of homosexuals and homosexuality.

And considering that this is a harmless characteristic and way to live, when all things are equal.
The plan to eliminate homosexuals by social attrition with Exodus at the helm, is insane too.
Such folly….terrible folly.

There are some people who have not been through such kinds of therapy or group therapy described above and have benefitted from the outcome of changing same sex attraction. What is described seems very odd to me. I have not heard of any of my friends being put in such a group or therapy session.

Sorry, Pam, that you had to endure this and at the hands of people you trusted.

I feel very fortunate to have the experiences I do when I hear of such tragedy.

Regan, you raise a great point. If the absence of same-sex role models and affection is the key factor in the origin of same-sex attractions, why isn’t the black community filled with gay men? I’d love to hear someone at Exodus answer that one.

I would have to interject that, while these unnamed people may or may not have benefited from their experience, we have nothing authoritative to corroborate that anyone, anywhere, has actually changed their sexual orientation from fully gay to fully straight. Certainly even those who claim such are the intense minority, so perhaps Pam and her ex-husband’s experience is more common than you, or your many friends, might think. No one has said that every therapy experience was like theirs; she is simply telling their story.

I’ve done my fair share of therapy and participated in peer support groups (some led by laypersons, others by pros). The things you describe would all be so invasive and unsettling to me… My only thought is that of renewed respect for folks who have emerged from such stuff and reconstructed healthy personal boundaries.

Wow, Pam. I went through the ex-gay counseling gauntlet, too, but never experienced the bizarre stuff you descibed. It sounds like a weird combination of Colin Cook and Richard Cohen. My therapist did recommend, however, bringing my 80-year-old father into the sessions so he could cuddle me (ala Cohen.) That was the point where I disconnected from ex-gay therapy and started to get real about my orientation. Thanks for being here and sharing your perspective, Pam.

I never went through ex-gay counseling. But Pam’s post and some of the other stories that I have heard about the ex-gay movement lead me to conclude that this is the logical extreme of what people do when “nothing works.”

When people are desperate, they will keep trying to add things, regardless of whether the added intervention hasn’t been shown to be helpful (or even worse when the added intervention has been proven not to be effective). This happens in cancer cases as well as other medical situations where there is no cure or effective treatment available.

For changing sexual orientation, I agree with Dave that there is no evidence that anyone has changed their orientation despite comments like Alan Chambers that he is “completely heterosexual.” So people are still pushed to do things that have never worked, or dream up new stuff with no logical reason to believe that the new interventions are going to work.

On some level, studying the methods of ex-gay groups might be very interesting to a researcher who looks at tactics that people and their counselors/doctors/other practitioners take in hopeless situations. (Let me be clear that the only situation that I consider hopeless here is the changing of orientations)

THANK YOU for this candid review. Sometimes I wonder how many more centuries society will take to accept reality. The “therapies” outlined sure sound to me like ways to strengthen the gay man and increase his awrness of his sexuality as a gay man. From what I read, I would be very concerned about the “therapist.”
I have been a pastor, counselor, social worker for many years and I don’t buy into any of this.

One of the most bizarre reparative practices I heard about was “non-sexual naked hugging.” A fellow ex-gay I met in a group therapy session at Joseph Nicolosi’s office told me about this, which was apparently a trend among some ex-gays in the late 90s. Idea was to get naked and hug or hold each other, but without making the contact sexual or erotic!

Supposedly, this non-sexual skin contact would help compensate for normal masculine contact that gay guys had missed as children. Funny–I raised two boys, both straight, and I don’t remember nude embraces with friends as a routine part of their growing up.

According to my nsnh confidant, a number of guys who were in therapy with Nicolosi’s practice had embraced (pun intended) this practice. He did say that Nicolosi himself never recommended or approved the idea, but had tolerated it.

I’m wondering why the photograph accompanying this article has a tape measure set at 3 inches. Would it not be better to have it set at 8 or 9? Plus, would it not be better with a seamstress cloth measuring tape…[shivers]…the cold steel would not exactly be what would be conducive to an accurate measurement. [it’s cold…I tell ya!] I mean, what is the point of taking a measurement if you’re trying to get accurate measure…

Oh…It’s just an illustration…I get it.

I tend to trust Pam but until I get verification from another reliable source, I cannot imagine any man would submit to being measured up against other men in this manner. That’s too creepy. I do not understand what is meant by this: “macho male affirmation thing” and measuring penises. Huh? What is the connection? It’s as ludicrous as men demonstrating their machismo by putting silhouettes of naked ladies on mud-flaps on their trucks. It doesn’t mean diddly except exhibits some sort of insecurity.

Jay….oh BELIEVE it, that I have asked and asked and asked and asked.
I’m still waiting…

Is it also a symptom of insanity to treat someone who inquires…as if they aren’t there?

I get Exodus’s e-newsletter, they ARE proud of what they do. Their outreach and whatever results they keep saying they have.

Shouldn’t people proud of their work, be EAGER like a puppy to answer a question pertinent to what they do?
Or does their insanity make them think I dropped a turd in the punch bowl by asking such a THING?

I think now, I am generating a strategy for messing with the messy science and theories of these people.
So what if I poke around the sludge in their brains and spotlight that their windmills have no breeze.
Being called prejudice hurts?
Alrighty then….tell me what’s sane about seeing disease among people functioning better than you do?

What’s rational about being confronted with a talented and compassionate gay person, yet see demons?
Messing with the heads of gay youth is one of those unforgivable intrusions on the tender…and vulnerable.
What kind of nuttiness posesses them to think that WE don’t have eyes and ears and didn’t see or hear EXACTLY what they said and meant?

/: 0P
Are we just gonna have to go there?…WE know what to do without screwing up.

Pam, I echo all the others who thank you for your candid report of what is undoubtedly embarrassing and extremely personal.

As for the measuring…

My guess (to be charitable) would be that the therapyst thought that comparison of penis size was something that “real men” do. And in terms of bravado and macho oneupmanship, I’ve heard the comment, “oh just whip ’em out and compare and get it over with”. There is a general sense that “macho guys” put a lot of importance in penis size.

But I suspect that is just a stereotype – in the same way that “real guys” work on cars and play football and belch and have mullets, so too do “real men” brag about their penis size.

Which is ironic, of course, because some subset of gay men actually do brag about or discuss their penis size. And while I do recall in college that there was general awareness in my fraternity of who was significantly endowed, I don’t recall actual measurements being discussed.

Although it may just be the therapist getting his jollies, I think it’s more likely that it just another sad example of ex-gay therapy confusing people with stereotypes and the sadly tragic (but highly comical) nonsensical results.

Pam, since I originally read your story, I have been thinking about the diagnosis of arrested development. I had to read Elizabeth Moberly’s theories about development and the father figure when in treatment. When I came out, narratives were common about father/son issues, but I seem to sense that these are becoming rare. The assumption on Moberly’s part was that distance between a father and son caused homosexuality, but what if any distance was caused by the father’s sense that the son may be homosexual?

What if fathers in our society have actually, as a whole, become more sensitive and tolerant of difference in sons? What if that is changing the narrative? I had some problems with my dad, but they were common problems, and I never saw them as a cause of homosexuality for me (I came out in 1990). However, when I hear stories today, more than not I hear about pleasant, tolerant stories about the father. Maybe I am off here, but I was simply wondering if there has been a change in the narratives. If there has been, that means Exodus and others will have a difficult time selling the same messages as in the past.

From the ex-wife of an ex-gay survivor at Ex-Gay Watch:At group, the guys would gather around one member, lift them up, and hold and rock them. All the guys I heard speak of this, including Tdub, found it to be an extremely comforting and affirming act…

Thanks for asking! It’s on it’s way….is written and being given a final “looksee” at the moment. 😉 I apologize in advance for the delay….the end of the school year was a bit more draining than usual this year.