Future of QT and KDE

1. Nokia/Trolltech and community drops support for X112. Kwin drop support for X11 3. Nokia/Trolltech and community drops support for QtSvg4. OpenGL Qt Graphics system is buggy

Dropping support for X11 isn't happening anytime soon as long as there is no offical support from Nvidia/Ati. That pretty much rules out the 1st and 2nd. I'm not saying that it's impossible but unlikely.QtSvg is important for KDE so they will most likely maintain it, 3rd point ruled out. I don't see how inactive Qt windows using OpenGL cause any problems with games that are most likely run in fullscreen mode, the 4th.

Just to make clear, I don't know much about the situation but I highly doubt that KDE and Qt developers are intentionally trying to destroy the desktop.

Re: Future of QT and KDE

1. Nokia/Trolltech and community drops support for X112. Kwin drop support for X11 3. Nokia/Trolltech and community drops support for QtSvg4. OpenGL Qt Graphics system is buggy

Dropping support for X11 isn't happening anytime soon as long as there is no offical support from Nvidia/Ati. That pretty much rules out the 1st and 2nd. I'm not saying that it's impossible but unlikely.QtSvg is important for KDE so they will most likely maintain it, 3rd point ruled out. I don't see how inactive Qt windows using OpenGL cause any problems with games that are most likely run in fullscreen mode, the 4th.

Just to make clear, I don't know much about the situation but I highly doubt that KDE and Qt developers are intentionally trying to destroy the desktop.

I am not saying that any of this is a guarantee, just that the future for Ati/Nvidia binary blobs isn't looking good in regards to Qt and highpoly game development. And we need those, well I do.

And there not intentionally trying to destroy the desktop. It's just that Qt has pretty much lost all there financial backing. They don't have Nokia, Intel devices to develop for anymore and they outsourced there commercial offerings to digia. Intel just announced there dropping Meego and going with Win7-8 and Android.

OpenGL from a developers point of view is more attractive than X11.

I am just getting my own ducks in a row just in case things on there end don't work out. And in OpenGL SVG is pointless, Doesn't even make sense to use it here.

Kwin will be all OpenGL and all I am hearing from the KDE camp is Wayland this and Wayland that. With zero mention of Ati/Nvidia Blobs

Re: Future of QT and KDE

I am not saying that any of this is a guarantee, just that the future for Ati/Nvidia binary blobs isn't looking good in regards to Qt and highpoly game development. And we need those, well I do.

And there not intentionally trying to destroy the desktop. It's just that Qt has pretty much lost all there financial backing. They don't have Nokia, Intel devices to develop for anymore and they outsourced there commercial offerings to digia. Intel just announced there dropping Meego and going with Win7-8 and Android.

OpenGL from a developers point of view is more attractive than X11.

I am just getting my own ducks in a row just in case things on there end don't work out. And in OpenGL SVG is pointless, Doesn't even make sense to use it here.

Kwin will be all OpenGL and all I am hearing from the KDE camp is Wayland this and Wayland that. With zero mention of Ati/Nvidia Blobs

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Somethings that I am excited about on and off Qt campus

1. It appears QML2 will use v82. v8 for QtScript 3. Mozilla is building a Qt4 native port <-- I tested it out works for the most part visuals are a little messed up. Could this mean that a Native Qt4 Gecko widget might be possible? Don't know maybe 4. We might even see a QtWebkit that uses v8!!!!

v8 in Qt is what I am most excited about. I use nodejs for my web developmentand that uses v8, but I also use Ogre3D as my main 3D graphics engine on topof Qt. My hopes are to be able to use Javascript when ever and where ever I see fitand have it just work. With one javascript engine. Be it Desktop, Game, Multimediaor Web Applications. Granted it's possible now, but the situation would be betterif I didnt have to use v8 for this and JSCore for that.

let me say it a few more times v8, v8, v8!!!!!

I am also looking forward to a OAuth 2 library then I could do all kinds of cool-thingswith Google Storage for Developers

Last couple of months I have really gotten into doing stuff with Cloud Storage and what not.

Ill be doing alot of stuff in regards to Google services and YES I am a google Fan boy.. Love Google

Here have a Skia Example Won't find many of these on the web that are not directed at android.

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

It's just that Qt has pretty much lost all there financial backing. They don't have Nokia, Intel devices to develop for anymore and they outsourced there commercial offerings to digia. Intel just announced there dropping Meego and going with Win7-8 and Android.

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Teho wrote:

zester wrote:

It's just that Qt has pretty much lost all there financial backing. They don't have Nokia, Intel devices to develop for anymore and they outsourced there commercial offerings to digia. Intel just announced there dropping Meego and going with Win7-8 and Android.

1. They don't have Nokia, Intel devices to develop for anymore <-- Devices as in hardware and they don't. Nokia isn't building anymore devices for Qt or Meego and all those developers came fromNokia to develop on symbian with Qt but symbian is dead. And I said nothing about anyone getting fired.2. What does Digia and there bugfixes have to do with anything I said they outsourced commercial offerings to digia.3. Supposedly but Intels comment to the rumor was that they were going to continue to support Meego and Open Source and not that there current plans of developing and shipping Meego devices were still in effect. Thats a huge difference. Meego doesn't need Intels code it needs it's devices!

Look I am not trying to argue with you all I am saying is that from my point of view someone who is well respected in the KDE, Qt, Blender, Ogre3D, Irrlicht, Horde3D, Gamekit, SFML community's, and has been highly praised by the contributors and developers of these Applications/Librarys. That from my own personal test's with Qt5 from the git repos. and from what little information that I have been able to gather from KDE/Qt devs and the developers that I personal am in contact with on a daily bases. That Qt5 in conjunction with Highpoly models and Advanced game development at this point isn't looking very good. Haveing all your application sitting on the GPU and then having a ultra highpoly game also sitting on the GPU isn't going to workout very well at all.

And that my decision for the time being to stick with and hack on/develop my own personal Qt4 fork is justifiably.

Now if we may let's put the previous topic behind us and continue a more worthwhile and productive conversation on how Qt4 and Qt4 applications can be developed and improved.

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

Look I am not trying to argue with you all I am saying is that from my point of view someone who is well respected in the KDE, Qt, Blender, Ogre3D, Irrlicht, Horde3D, Gamekit, SFML community's, and has been highly praised by the contributors and developers of these Applications/Librarys. That from my own personal test's with Qt5 from the git repos. and from what little information that I have been able to gather from KDE/Qt devs and the developers that I personal am in contact with on a daily bases. That Qt5 in conjunction with Highpoly models and Advanced game development at this point isn't looking very good. Haveing all your application sitting on the GPU and then having a ultra highpoly game also sitting on the GPU isn't going to workout very well at all.

And that my decision for the time being to stick with and hack on/develop my own personal Qt4 fork is justifiably.

Now if we may let's put the previous topic behind us and continue a more worthwhile and productive conversation on how Qt4 and Qt4 applications can be developed and improved.

expressing personal opinions is fine (this is a public forum after all), but if you're going to make a lot of factual claims on a big subject like the future of qt/kde, i think you should be prepared to cite your sources.

let people make up their own minds whether any of your various proposals are "worthwhile and productive".

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

from my point of view

Sure I have no problem with that if only sorting those old Qt Develop Blog post was as strait forward. There is one that i am pulling my hair out trying to find. Were a high ranking Qt Developer specifically address my concern regarding Qt5/Wayland and Hardware acceleration. With the comment that there are other chipsets besides Ati and Nvidia with hardware acceleration. He acknowledged the fact that Wayland will probably never see hardware acceleration via At/Nvidia binary blobs.

Well there are no other chipsets with hardware acceleration in regards to 1 million polys in combination to shaders. And you can't build the types of games that I have been working on for 4 years without hardware acceleration.

Re: Future of QT and KDE

I just don’t get all this Wayland hype, for it to work properly on Nvidia cards, Nvidia would have to add some code to the kernel to support kernel mode setting, which would require the Nvidia driver to be GPL. This will never ever happen. Wayland is vapor-ware just forget about it.

Thiago Macieira wrote:

NVidia is not the only video card manufacturer. And their proprietary driver not even the only option for their own cards.

Besides, NVidia cards already support embedded systems without X, albeit with other solutions besides Wayland. And they do this without KMS.

Finally, vapourware is software that never becomes concrete. You cannot tell the people who are actually doing the work that their work is vapour. That’s just plain insulting. I’ve seen it running, I’ve worked with the people making a reality. What is your contribution?

Steven wrote:

I’ve been contributing to Linux and KDE opensource software development for as long as KDE has existed.

My point is the opensource community finally has AAA game development library’s, that need those proprietary Nvidia drivers to compete on the same level as other platforms.

I would absolutely love to see a modern replacement for X even if that meant we had to start from scratch and rewrite all legacy applications, not saying we would.

But I have personally spoken with the Nvidia devs that produce the linux driver, and there just not going to go for wayland. And the Intel, Nouveau driver’s just don’t come close to theproprietary AMD/Ati and Nvidia offerings.

“NVidia cards already support embedded systems without X”You mean on Mesa without hardware acceleration? Yah Ive seen that trick also.

Thiago Macieira wrote:

No, I meant full hardware-accelerated, non-X NVidia systems (Tegra II). It exists. It might not be freely available though.

Anyway, the point is that we’re not stopping for “I don’t have a driver”. We are going to optimise for the case where you do.

In the Qt World Thiago Macieira is about has high ranking as they get besides Lars Knoll. We settled our little spat at the Qt Conference via irc. And sorry Thiago but Tegra 2 is a mobile thing it's not going to cut it for my use case. You don't do AAA on a Tegra lol

Do some digging of your own. You will see that there solution to the problem is always a mobile platform solution. Well mobile does not equal Desktop and those use cases where a Nvidia chip do work with out X are not available to the public. Why because it violates the GPL in one form or another.

Hell the whole Qt Quick/QML ordeal is a mobile platform focused thing.Not saying it's a bad thing just that Qt5 development will not be desktop driven but mobile platform driven. Why well follow the money my friend.

Re: Future of QT and KDE

QtSvgOverall module state: DeprecatedNew maintainer requiredReasoning: SVG Full (as opposed to SVG Tiny) functionality available in QtWebKit, which should be used instead; we welcome research for a replacement for the SVG-generating code.

Note: SVG Full (as opposed to SVG Tiny) functionality available in QtWebKit, which should be used instead;

As I said before in regards to QtSvg, Guess what QtWebKit is no replacement when developing a Drawing application that saves as Svg or Rendering Svg graphics on the desktop.

Now let me go find the previous blog where the BIG fight happened in regards to QtSvg

I have emails also but I cant show you those for obvious reasons.

And all SVG Tiny means is that it doesn't have animation, well you don't need animations for desktop graphics or a vector drawing application.

QFileSystemWatcherState: DeprecatedReasoning: flawed design, a replacement is required. We’re open for ideas in that area. <--- LOL that is soooo funny because it has never worked right only took them like 10 years to be like crap we need to replace this thing.

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

He acknowledged the fact that Wayland will probably never see hardware acceleration via At/Nvidia binary blobs.

And you (him too, for that matter) know that how? Currently Wayland only works on top of KMS, but the keyword is "currently". There's nothing in it's design that says "KMS or bust", it wouldn't be hard to get it working on top of another modesetting solution. And Nvidia's modesetting isn't tied to X, they've been doing kernel modesetting since forever.

If this is your only problem - a fear that there won't be Nvidia+Wayland, then there is no problem. There's nothing in the design of either that would prevent such a combo. That Nvidia's current plans don't involve Wayland... Well, again there's the keyword "current". Just wait for Wayland to reach a stage where you can actually run a full system on top of it.

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Gusar wrote:

zester wrote:

He acknowledged the fact that Wayland will probably never see hardware acceleration via At/Nvidia binary blobs.

And you (him too, for that matter) know that how? Currently Wayland only works on top of KMS, but the keyword is "currently". There's nothing in it's design that says "KMS or bust", it wouldn't be hard to get it working on top of another modesetting solution. And Nvidia's modesetting isn't tied to X, they've been doing kernel modesetting since forever.

If this is your only problem - a fear that there won't be Nvidia+Wayland, then there is no problem. There's nothing in the design of either that would prevent such a combo. That Nvidia's current plans don't involve Wayland... Well, again there's the keyword "current". Just wait for Wayland to reach a stage where you can actually run a full system on top of it.

You didnt read my previous post and Thiago Macieira is one of the developers with Qt Development Frameworks in Nokia who is working directly with wayland for lighthouse. And modesetting solution isn't the problem. It's the GPL violation of a Binary Blob that operates on that level. Hence why Nvidia won't touch it. It's not going to matter where they put that driver if it touches the kernel at that layer. And Linus doesn't have the final say any kernel developer who has a single peices of code in the kernel can call Nvidia out on the violation.

Would you like me to site sources where kernel developers have said that they don't care what linus says in regards to shipping the Nvidiadriver on an iso as a separate package not installed is a GPL violation and there willing to go to court over the matter?

Re: Future of QT and KDE

They Piggy-backing on GLX which is licensed SGI FreeB License(basically MIT) and there able to avoid the direct GPL violation but they wont have that safeguard with KMS. And by the way KMS is a requirement for not only wayland but also the open source nvidia driver and I doubt there going to change that for the sake of the Nvidia binary driver