Instead of two knee flexion exercises on the second day, why not go with another hip extension as you did on the first say? And as an aside, I'm not fond of pure knee flexion exercises in general bc that's not quite how it functions (pure flexion with a long lever) but most gyms seem to lack a GHR so, eh.

What about leg press feet high? Change up every couple sets foot position so you get every part of it moving from the hip, same with lunges to get glutes more also. Do you do standard deadlifts on back day?

I enjoy good mornings as well. Also using smith machine and dumbbells for stiff legged deads gives me better motion and control. Again use different foot positions and vary the direction toes are pointing ( try that with all your leg exersizes if your not) also there's a double pump technique (i refer to it as the double tap... Gotta make sure) basically say your doing leg curls, do the full rep then half way through the negative portion stop and the rep it again from there, I guess its basically hrt without a partner now that I think about it

Instead of two knee flexion exercises on the second day, why not go with another hip extension as you did on the first say? And as an aside, I'm not fond of pure knee flexion exercises in general bc that's not quite how it functions (pure flexion with a long lever) but most gyms seem to lack a GHR so, eh.

This. I'm working on a blog post right now regarding how counterproductive hamstring curls (with the exception of swiss ball bridging HS curls) are.

The hamstring is a powerful hip extensor and should be trained as such. If you want to reduce lower back loading then you can do band or cable resisted lying straight leg extensions.

I am curious to why you would describe isolated knee flexion exercises as counterproductive for a bodybuilder?

The movement isn't natural and it is not integrating them with the rest of the posterior chain but I wouldn't eliminate it from a hypertrophy routine solely from that perspective. There are loads of non functional positions used in bodybuilding routines that still have worth.

I am not saying I prefer it to common hip extension exercises but I definitely wouldn't go to the extreme of saying it is counterproductive.

From a bodybuilding perspective hamstring curls do not overload the hamstrings to the same extent as they are overloaded during hip extension movements. They also do not fully recruit all the hamstring muscles to the same degree, of which I need to dig up the EMG studies to substantialize this further.
The major issue with hamstring curls for athletic is that they train the HS to flex the knee from a (in the case of lying) a position of major anterior pelvic tilt. This is quite the opposite of their function with regards to sprinting or running. Knee flexion is occuring from a position of a neutral pelvis and a slightly flexed (or flexing) hip. Anterior pelvic tilt + extended hip + knee flexion on a field is going to increase risk of HS injury.

From a bodybuilding perspective hamstring curls do not overload the hamstrings to the same extent as they are overloaded during hip extension movements. They also do not fully recruit all the hamstring muscles to the same degree, of which I need to dig up the EMG studies to substantialize this further.
The major issue with hamstring curls for athletic is that they train the HS to flex the knee from a (in the case of lying) a position of major anterior pelvic tilt. This is quite the opposite of their function with regards to sprinting or running. Knee flexion is occuring from a position of a neutral pelvis and a slightly flexed (or flexing) hip. Anterior pelvic tilt + extended hip + knee flexion on a field is going to increase risk of HS injury.

To play devil's advocate;
- if you have a unilateral knee flexion machine you have accessibility of assessing (and then rectifying) any strength imbalance between both legs. You cannot do this with anything else as any posterior chain strength test would not necessarily identify hamstring imbalances rather than imbalances anywhere along the chain which would be subject to flexibility issues i.e. reciprocal inhibition from hip flexors effecting glute firing. Single leg deadlifts with a higher intensity will also lose efficacy due to balance.
- if hamstring muscles are not recruited to the same degree i.e. semimem, semiten, biceps femoris then foot position can change to accommodate this.
- increasing risk of injury is obviously an issue but I am arguing my case from bodybuilding only. Obviously a leg curl is going to have less transfer to most athletic events than the plethora of hip extension exercises.

I can see why you would say it would be counterproductive for an athlete 'if' it increased the risk of injury but I am strictly talking about non-functional hypertrophy in this instance.

I was going to put stiff legged deads on Thursday. But scratch that im gonna leave that where it is and im gonna add rdl to Thursdays. Now should i keep both knee flex exercises or take one away for thursday.

To play devil's advocate;
- if you have a unilateral knee flexion machine you have accessibility of assessing (and then rectifying) any strength imbalance between both legs. You cannot do this with anything else as any posterior chain strength test would not necessarily identify hamstring imbalances rather than imbalances anywhere along the chain which would be subject to flexibility issues i.e. reciprocal inhibition from hip flexors effecting glute firing. Single leg deadlifts with a higher intensity will also lose efficacy due to balance.
- if hamstring muscles are not recruited to the same degree i.e. semimem, semiten, biceps femoris then foot position can change to accommodate this.
- increasing risk of injury is obviously an issue but I am arguing my case from bodybuilding only. Obviously a leg curl is going to have less transfer to most athletic events than the plethora of hip extension exercises.

I can see why you would say it would be counterproductive for an athlete 'if' it increased the risk of injury but I am strictly talking about non-functional hypertrophy in this instance.

I see what you are saying from an assessment standpoint, and that does make sense. As does the issue of functionality when strictly speaking about bodybuilding.

Again (and i have to dig up some EMG studies) leg curls do not recruit or overload the 4 major hamstring muscles (including adductor magnus HS head) to the same extent as do closed kinetic chain hip extension movements.

Im gonna look to see if my gym had ghr thing. Or I'll do them on a pull bench haha.

Do you think knee flex movements are even good to have in my schedule?

There's no reason to get rid of them. I think if you stick to knee flexion movements whereby the glute is activated to keep the hip extended they are a very valuable movement. These would be swiss ball leg curls, hamstring slides, etc. You can always do them with one leg or add bands to increase resistance.

There's no reason to get rid of them. I think if you stick to knee flexion movements whereby the glute is activated to keep the hip extended they are a very valuable movement. These would be swiss ball leg curls, hamstring slides, etc. You can always do them with one leg or add bands to increase resistance.

I would prefer knee flexion exercises with hip extension as well in an ideal world.

I have issues with supine swiss ball hip extensions with leg curl because even with a single leg the level of resistance is nowhere near as easy to adjust as a leg curl machine. Also, if you get a good knee flexion machine it will more appropriately match the strength curve of the exercise. I also like the ability to measure i.e. a weight machine the exact resistance to assess strength discrepancies between both limbs.

Don't mistake my stance, I am still hugely in favour of hip extension movements with hamstring recruitment. I just don't necessarily see anything wrong with having a leg curl machine in a hypertrophy programme. To me it is similar to saying a bicep curl is counterproductive because you can just do chin ups. I know the leg curl machine has less carryover than this example but I am sure you understand the comparison.