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Keep looking until you find what you love, unfortunately it takes time and persistence. You should travel to other cities to play many used grands since this is probably the best bang for the buck in concert quality instruments for 25K max. If you think you can handle a true concert grand (think 8-11" plus) in your space, then definitely don't rule it out. I was surprised you weren't looking at older larger Yamahas like C7 or CF, I have never heard them described as muddy! Play some older larger Baldwins if possible, they can be great values. Have a good tech check anything out before buying and Good Luck!

Funny that you should say this . . . August Forster changed my world today. And probably ruined it.

The 190, never had an owner, but is about three years old. Thoughts? I told him 30k was my max, he said he could come near it.

I cried playing this piano. I cried listening to him play this piano. I'm currently looking around my house for things to sell.

LOL. You have made a good choice, Clearly. Pat H was right. Estonia and August Forster are the two "value" makes among performance-grade pianos - superb tone & touch, with no compromises in longevity or fit & finish, but less expensive than comparable-size pianos from Bechstein, Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Fazioli, Steinway, etc. Once my niece has recovered and is able to resume auditioning pianos, I am going to insist that she audition the Estonia and Forster models in the 72-90" length range.

My niece is a young lady with good but expensive tastes. She likes the Schimmel Konzert and Shigeru Kawai pianos that she has tried, but she is still enamored of the Sauter 220 (her music teacher's piano). That said, she realizes that her family has budget constraints, and she promises to keep an open mind until this "piano quest" is over. Hopefully she will like one of the Estonia or Forster models as much as the Sauter.

Here is one Petrof data point for you. I bought a 10 year old Petrof IV about 2 years ago. It still seems to be in excellent shape although I have no idea how much it was played before I got it. And of course, I still love it.

Seeing as you are in Seattle, I am very surprised no one has mentioned Darrell Fandrich yet. Whatever you do, you must contact him and see some of the magic he does. His pianos are known among players to be some of the smoothest playing and lovely sounding pianos out there. I believe you can test drive a Steingraeber there, and you know that you haven't lived until you have played a Steingraeber...Fandrich & Sons

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21717
Loc: New York City

Even given the multitude of variables that can affect selling price it seems strange to me that an August Forster with an SMP of 67K could sell for close to 30K. That would be more than 50% off SMP.

Even though these pianos are rated very highly I wouldn't place them in the bargain category*unless they really sell for such a low price) for Tier 2 pianos. IMO that distinction goes to Estonia, Shigeru, and Mason Hamlin.

Normally a Foerster 190 is much, much more expensive than an Estonia 190.

Probably 50% more.

And I would say here in the USA probably would normally be perhaps 30% more than a Schimmel K189T. Normally.

If you can get a Foerster 190 for anywhere near what you have indicated - you are very fortunate.

Furtwangler,

You are right in that she is lucky to find a new Forster 190 at that price.

However, I think you misundertood the intent of the rest of my post. I was NOT implying that August Forsters are as inexpensive as Estonias. (They aren't.) I was simply stating that, compared to so many other premium makes like Steinway, Faziolli, Grotrian, Sauter, Bechstein, Bosendorfer, Bluthner and Steingraeber, Forsters are arguably of equal quality but cost less. In that way August Forster could be considered a "value" make.

As a matter of fact, in the 85-90" length range, the Forster 215 grand was not only cheaper the than the competing models of the makes listed above, but also undercut (ever so slightly) the competing Schimmel Konzert and Shigeru Kawai models as well.

Both the AF 190 and 215 models are on our "to audition" list when we go to New York in 3 weeks. I've heard nothing but praise for them from others. My niece will be auditioning other makes of pianos as well, but I hope she takes a liking to some of the less expensive makes like Estonia, Charles Walter, Schimmel, Shigeru Kawai, Mason & Hamlin, or August Forster.

Have any of you other bloggers experienced this problem with the "Blue Book of Pianos"? Are the Blue Book prices too high or too low?

Hi Almaviva,

Based on my experience as a university piano faculty member, I can say that the prices on the bluebookofpianos.com site bear NO resemblance to the prices we've been quoted as an institutional buyer on pianos from Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai, Estonia, Schimmel, Mason & Hamlin, and Bechstein. For that matter, what is the purpose of publishing an "institutional" price in a consumer publication, since a typical retail buyer won't be able to purchase at that price?

Well, terminaldegree, I assumed that if the Piano Buyer's "Suggested Maximum Price" was a price above which a consumer should never accept, the Bluebook of Piano's "Invoice Selling Price" was a price below which a retailer should never accept. Thus the closer the consumer and retailer could get to the "Invoice Selling Price", the better the "deal" for the consumer.

However, most people on this site question the accuracy of the prices quoted in "Blue Book", so the point is moot. But my original question remains - are the "Blue Book" prices lower or higher than the actual retailer's cost of the piano?

However, most people on this site question the accuracy of the prices quoted in "Blue Book", so the point is moot. But my original question remains - are the "Blue Book" prices lower or higher than the actual retailer's cost of the piano?

The Blue Book is a private, "unauthorized" publication of retail prices which are NOT supported or updated by manufacturers in a transparent, reliable way.

I have contacted Blue Book several times myself to pint out some errors, however they chose not to reply.

As a result, BB only transpires to confuse even more what is for many an already confusing market.

The most reliable, regularly updated data about pricing are published semi-annually by Piano Buyer which is based on the actual prices supplied by manufacturers themselves.

However, most people on this site question the accuracy of the prices quoted in "Blue Book", so the point is moot. But my original question remains - are the "Blue Book" prices lower or higher than the actual retailer's cost of the piano?

The Blue Book is a private, "unauthorized" publication of retail prices which are NOT supported or updated by manufacturers in a transparent, reliable way.

The most reliable, regularly updated data about pricing are published semi-annually by Piano Buyer which is based on the actual prices supplied by manufacturers themselves.

Funny that you should say this . . . August Forster changed my world today. And probably ruined it.

The 190, never had an owner, but is about three years old. Thoughts? I told him 30k was my max, he said he could come near it.

I cried playing this piano. I cried listening to him play this piano. I'm currently looking around my house for things to sell.

Great, then I'd say buy it!! As far as paying for the overage, no need to sell anything in your home......you can always write a book about how it sounded so amazing in the piano store, but seemed to change completely when you got it home, sending you on a multi year quest to regain the mystique that drew you to it initially........oh, wait.....

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21717
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Almaviva

However, most people on this site question the accuracy of the prices quoted in "Blue Book", so the point is moot. But my original question remains - are the "Blue Book" prices lower or higher than the actual retailer's cost of the piano?

I have a new Kawai K8 scheduled for delivery tomorrow. So having recently shopped for a piano I can somewhat relate to what you're going through. Although, I was in the market for a vertical not a grand as my wife wasn't willing to let my piano habit occupy that much space.

I started my quest thinking I'd buy a used vertical, a Yamaha probably out of Craigslist for about $3K. But first I thought I'd visit a few shops. The first one had used Yamahas, Kawais, Petrofs etc. All within 10 to 15 years old. Good quality but nothing inspirational. Then I visited a Kawai dealer -- and they had a new K8 - which I loved instantly.

Search over, however, the sales guy barely spoke English - which made negotiating a bit unwieldly. Apparently they catered mostly to the Asian market. So I made a rather long trek to another Kawai dealer - who as luck would haven't didn't have any in stock to try. The owner was absolutely super great guy - but he said that very few people want to buy a new top of the line vertical.

OK, I said, but does Kawai have distribution nearby from which you could drop ship to my house? Yes. (Los Angeles area) Great, what's the best deal you can give me considering you have no inventory carrying costs and you don't have to touch the piano? After doing some calculation in his office he comes back to me with $10,500. At which point I should have counter offered but since I'm not all that good at this, I accepted the deal.

So I started at $3K and wound up at $12.5K - yes sales tax is a whopping 10% in the land of fruits and nuts.

My rationalization for such extravagance? 1) I spend a minimum of an hour a day during the week and 2-3 a day on the weekends. 2) This is likely to be the first and last piano I'm ever going to buy, at least in this life 3) The piano is very very important to me - not because I'm any good it's just the way it is. (BTW my other "piano" is a digital Yamaha hooked up to the Synthology virtual version of a Steinway concert grand).

So this is a long winded way of saying get whatever piano your ears, hands and heart desire. As for my purchasing strategy - I'm sure it left a lot to be desired, my piano buying experience up to this point was precisely zero. But at the end of the day what really matters is that you get the piano you love. If I've accomplished this, that is all that matters.

I was in your spot about a year ago. I went out and played as many pianos as I could, over the period of about 5-6 months. I would suggest that you play all brands and sizes. Play the most expensive one in the store, and see if it sounds TO YOU, like the best one in the store. Often times, it won't!

You also want to like and trust the store/sales person. You will be working with them even after the purchase, and you want to make sure that you trust that they will be able to stand behind the piano.

After months of trying out different pianos, I narrowed it down to Mason and Hamlin, or Shigeru Kawai. In both of those, I found the 7 foot size to be my sweet spot (well, I never considered 9 foot for the size of my room!). When I jumped to that size, it just felt like I was getting so much more piano.

I bought my Shigeru Kawai (SK6) last October and I just love it. My only complaint is that I don't get as much time as I would like to play it!

See if you can find a Shigeru Kawai in your area to try out. Good luck!!

I have a new Kawai K8 scheduled for delivery tomorrow. So having recently shopped for a piano I can somewhat relate to what you're going through. Although, I was in the market for a vertical not a grand as my wife wasn't willing to let my piano habit occupy that much space.

I started my quest thinking I'd buy a used vertical, a Yamaha probably out of Craigslist for about $3K. But first I thought I'd visit a few shops. The first one had used Yamahas, Kawais, Petrofs etc. All within 10 to 15 years old. Good quality but nothing inspirational. Then I visited a Kawai dealer -- and they had a new K8 - which I loved instantly.

Search over, however, the sales guy barely spoke English - which made negotiating a bit unwieldly. Apparently they catered mostly to the Asian market. So I made a rather long trek to another Kawai dealer - who as luck would haven't didn't have any in stock to try. The owner was absolutely super great guy - but he said that very few people want to buy a new top of the line vertical.

OK, I said, but does Kawai have distribution nearby from which you could drop ship to my house? Yes. (Los Angeles area) Great, what's the best deal you can give me considering you have no inventory carrying costs and you don't have to touch the piano? After doing some calculation in his office he comes back to me with $10,500. At which point I should have counter offered but since I'm not all that good at this, I accepted the deal.

So I started at $3K and wound up at $12.5K - yes sales tax is a whopping 10% in the land of fruits and nuts.

My rationalization for such extravagance? 1) I spend a minimum of an hour a day during the week and 2-3 a day on the weekends. 2) This is likely to be the first and last piano I'm ever going to buy, at least in this life 3) The piano is very very important to me - not because I'm any good it's just the way it is. (BTW my other "piano" is a digital Yamaha hooked up to the Synthology virtual version of a Steinway concert grand).

So this is a long winded way of saying get whatever piano your ears, hands and heart desire. As for my purchasing strategy - I'm sure it left a lot to be desired, my piano buying experience up to this point was precisely zero. But at the end of the day what really matters is that you get the piano you love. If I've accomplished this, that is all that matters.

However, most people on this site question the accuracy of the prices quoted in "Blue Book", so the point is moot. But my original question remains - are the "Blue Book" prices lower or higher than the actual retailer's cost of the piano?

Why would a retailer sell a piano below cost??

I was simply trying to arrive at what it cost the dealer to buy the piano in the first place. It would put the consumer in a better bargaining position if he or she knew the wholesale price of the instrument in question.

I have sent you a PM. When I started my piano search, I tried most of the best European pianos, the Steinways, Mason-Hamlins, some Japanese and Korea pianos, etc. There are so many fine pianos out there, and many differences, so try as many as you can before you decide. You will also want to consider slightly-used or rebuilt instruments. Prices might surprise you on some of the slightly-used. If you choose one of these, you will hear from most of us here that you should have it checked by a tuner/tech. The cost is not a lot and it can really save you a lot of troubles. Good luck and let us know what you decide!

I was simply trying to arrive at what it cost the dealer to buy the piano in the first place. It would put the consumer in a better bargaining position if he or she knew the wholesale price of the instrument in question.

The logic in this fails quickly. Even when you see the factory invoice of a car, you don't see backside payments for volume and customer satisfaction reports. It only seems transparent. I don't know the invoice price of any article of clothing or piece of furniture I own. I certainly don't know the cost of many services I purchase. Nor to I know what is typical margin in those industries.

I'd have to search for the thread, but somewhere Steve Cohen posted more thoroughly about the music industry vs. other industry margins showing them significantly below average. Invoice doesn't account for retail costs that vary. Say the cost of a Manhattan store vs. one in the suburbs of Atlanta.

The phenomena of the group buy is almost exclusively for Yam U1. How many BÃ¶sendorfer pianos would you like to buy? I feel sure I could get you a volume discount at about 10-12.