Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

The proper response to an arm coming to your face is to duck under it or sidestep it, or as I often do, simply block it with my arm. For a big aerial ukemi, nage's going to have to connect to my center and move all of me, not just scare me.

If nage knows what he's doing, the arm coming toward your face *will* connect to your center and move all of you.

I have seen people attempt to support nage's arm and bodyweight with their face, while absorbing all the stress in their lumbar spine. They think they're being "realistic," but it's only nage's control that keeps them from being very seriously injured.

One thing I'll say about judoka though is that they tend to be quite good at not falling. I mean, what is considered a good fall in aikido is an instant loss in a judo match.

I've been wondering about this for a while, and wanted to get the thoughts of some judoka on this: isn't taking ukemi and landing on your back - which is the way we train, and judoka train, too (?) - the best ukemi to take?

But in judo competition, it counts as a defeat if you are thrown onto your back...surely that's what you want to do, though - land on your back - so the other person should throw you on your front to defeat you?

I understand that a great many injuries, and the ruin of the body is caused by judo sportsmen trying to contort themselves so as to avoid landing on their back (from where they can see their opponent coming).

I would say perhaps the good fall in aikido being a defeat in judo is why the one is purely a martial art, the other a sport...?

I've been wondering about this for a while, and wanted to get the thoughts of some judoka on this: isn't taking ukemi and landing on your back - which is the way we train, and judoka train, too (?) - the best ukemi to take?

But in judo competition, it counts as a defeat if you are thrown onto your back...surely that's what you want to do, though - land on your back - so the other person should throw you on your front to defeat you?

I understand that a great many injuries, and the ruin of the body is caused by judo sportsmen trying to contort themselves so as to avoid landing on their back (from where they can see their opponent coming).

I would say perhaps the good fall in aikido being a defeat in judo is why the one is purely a martial art, the other a sport...?

Why don't you go and find out and join a judo club, or MMA club then you can get back to us and tell us what the experience was like.....

I would say if the training is alive, variety is automatically present. This is why we can reverse engineer a given expression of Kihon Waza, and say: If there is no variation in the ukemi, the technique was not a living thing.

If one wanted to, of course, they could point to the architectural elements that make a technical expression "dead" (as I am describing it), but I thought it very interesting that by using tools like Youtube, we can see that more and more the whole world is beginning to fall the same exact way EVERY SINGLE TIME. It didn't used to be that way - another thing we can see by using Youtube.

If we wanted to get into what makes an expression "dead" as I am using the term, I would put before you that current technical expressions, more and more, are devised to let uke take their "fall" from the exact starting point from which they learned how to fall in so orchestrated a manner. That is to say, current architectures, more and more, allow uke to stand straight up before they fall (so they CAN fall as prescribed), and/or current architectures more and more (attempt to) "throw" uke from a standing position.

We do not see that in the old videos that I posted above. We see folks being launched from a state of already falling and/or stumbling, etc. - hence, they take ukemi and are able to get up, but they bite it too. Old notions of falling seemed to be a matter of: "Hey, keep your head off the mat, and don't die." Nowadays, there's a whole lot more to it.

I think it is shows more courage to face a throw you know you are going to have to take from a state of already falling, and thus I think ultimately, deep down, along with all the other non-martial elements growing in Aikido today, I think the lack of variety in falling is related to how afraid us moderns are (of everything) - how foreign warrior culture truly is to us nowadays.

How often do you devote class time to freestyle simultaneously for both nage and uke? I know having beginners isn't conducive to it but having a separate advanced class could help facilitate that.

We have devoted classes to live training environments weekly, but inside of every class we always try to have learning reflect upon spontaneous applications. At the least, we attempt to have the student's mind fettered by a given form and a variation of that form so that students, regardless of their time in the art, come to understand that the main focus of training at our dojo is the unfettering of that mind.

If nage knows what he's doing, the arm coming toward your face *will* connect to your center and move all of you.

I have seen people attempt to support nage's arm and bodyweight with their face, while absorbing all the stress in their lumbar spine. They think they're being "realistic," but it's only nage's control that keeps them from being very seriously injured.

Katherine

If, if, if ...
A lot of scenarios. If uke knows what he's doing, maybe nage ends up on his back. If nage truly has control, then uke has no choice in the matter. The nage should show self control. Even with uke taking a good breakfall, a nage that is that much in the right place could still finish him off and hurt him. Ever see the clips of Gozo Shioda following through with ukes neck into the tatami?

If you are doing a big open breakfall, with a truly strong martial technique by nage, it is because he is giving you that opportunity to escape and survive.

The problem is that if you never force the issue, you never find out if nage really knows what he's doing. And in your turn as nage, you never find out if you really know what you are doing. It doesn't even take an all or nothing, risk your neck approach. But make contact, see if nage can really move you from the position he's in. Does he have the control to really throw you. Tamura sensei once told a class I was in that you don't know how to do a technique unless you can do it slowly.

Do you have an example of dead ukemi. What is your opinion of that 3rd kyu test I put a link to.

Variety might mean aliveness, but might also mean overreaction to nage's every little move. Responsiveness can be overdone, and is a greater threat to aikido's quality in my opinion.

I don't mind changing my words - they are only pointers. If the word "variety" is clouding the issue, then let's go with, "uke being unable to physically respond to an angle of disturbance by maneuvering their base of support back underneath their line of gravity."

Today, uke's more popular (and spreading) architectural expectations necessitate that one always be permitted to regain a balancing relationship between their base of support and their line of gravity prior to going flying through the air. Today's nage is all for this allowance - allowing uke to maintain and/or regain the relationship between his/her line of gravity and base of support - because in the end they are "rewarded" with "launching" an uke through the air (so they believe).

This is in contrast to forcing uke to address the throw from a disassociation of their line of gravity and their base of support. In these cases, you get launched, but you land ANY WAY YOU CAN - and that in turn leads to you almost landing differently every time.

Thus, I'm trying to discuss something different from the debate between uke being responsive and uke being a like a sack of bricks. Responsiveness and sacks of bricks are a different issue for me - though it has been brought up here by others.

An example of this could be any video where prior to an uke taking their front breakfall, they are standing straight up (i.e. line of gravity inside of the base of support), or more accurately, and from nage's point of view, it could be any video wherein nage's propelling spiral doesn't continue to stay ahead of uke's attempts to reposition his/her base of support under their line of gravity. When you see these things, you see perfect landings - landing that are repeatable, identical to each other, over and over again.

I would say if the training is alive, variety is automatically present.
... I would put before you that current technical expressions, more and more, are devised to let uke take their "fall" from the exact starting point from which they learned how to fall in so orchestrated a manner.

I see your point. Many of the videos I have watched have the appearance of kyu level experience than yudansha level. What I mean is they are still doing the "A" then "B" then "C" method instead of just "doing it". A kin to "going through the motions" and not gaining the ... enlightenment is too strong a word... understanding of how and why that particular ukeme (and/or technique) works. I chalk it up to being "too formal" or "rigidly classical" in their training and not being allowed to experiment with it via different attacks. Or it could be from a lack of a realistic attacks.
Eventually (after several/many years) I started conceptualizing how certain techniques worked (nikkyo for example) and now I can slap nikkyo on someone from angles I was never taught. I believe this is when the art starts to come alive. When you understand how and why something works instead of mimicking or parroting it, when you "just do it" (thank you Nike ). Kind of like "playing the instrument" instead of repeating a song you learned.

I see your point. Many of the videos I have watched have the appearance of kyu level experience than yudansha level. What I mean is they are still doing the "A" then "B" then "C" method instead of just "doing it". A kin to "going through the motions" and not gaining the ... enlightenment is too strong a word... understanding of how and why that particular ukeme (and/or technique) works. I chalk it up to being "too formal" or "rigidly classical" in their training and not being allowed to experiment with it via different attacks. Or it could be from a lack of a realistic attacks.
Eventually (after several/many years) I started conceptualizing how certain techniques worked (nikkyo for example) and now I can slap nikkyo on someone from angles I was never taught. I believe this is when the art starts to come alive. When you understand how and why something works instead of mimicking or parroting it, when you "just do it" (thank you Nike ). Kind of like "playing the instrument" instead of repeating a song you learned.

Graham, you will only find out if you experience it... Have you?
The throws in judo are effective, It much depends on tori's skill if you land too hard, it's usually a sign of forced technique....
I didn't find judo throws that damaging as an uke in fact it very much helped in my aikido, I don't see any difference....
The projectile ones we see resembling acrobatics as if flying are ridiculous to my mind. Fine if you are doing a gymnastics display

I am always reminded of the O'Sensei quote "there are no breakfalls in real aikido". A beautiful ukemi is one that is safe for both, we are practising a martial art and safety is paramount. My late Sensei told of two deaths he saw on the judo mat (he is a high grade judoka whom trained at the Kodokan).

In terms of beauty it is always in the eye of the beholder.

I have practised with some senior judoka and their technique was amazing. One of the hardest throws I ever experienced was from a judo session, there is no breakfall from it.

Graham, you will only find out if you experience it... Have you?
The throws in judo are effective, It much depends on tori's skill if you land too hard, it's usually a sign of forced technique....
I didn't find judo throws that damaging as an uke in fact it very much helped in my aikido, I don't see any difference....
The projectile ones we see resembling acrobatics as if flying are ridiculous to my mind. Fine if you are doing a gymnastics display

Again: this has no relevance to my question.
I wonder about the theory of ukemi - not its practice.

Yeah, I know that - that's what I said.
However, if you land safely (on your back) in a judo fight, they say you've lost - so people try their best to land unsafely (on their front), and not avoid injury, in order not to lose the fight...

That seems completely contrary to the teaching of judo/martial arts to me, so I was wondering what the justification for it is.
Especially as, I believe, most top-flight judo fighters' bodies are approaching ruin at around 30.

Again: this has no relevance to my question.
I wonder about the theory of ukemi - not its practice.

Graham.

I was taught the theory of ukemi was to harmonize with the ground. With this I was given examples of different falls done by various people eg: by a skydiver. They hit and roll.

Judo I was shown was a matter of using a breakfall that dispersed the energy as you hit the mat. As there is no way of rolling from a judo throw the only way to harmonise with the ground is to relax into it and the arm going out is to help disperse or spread out the force of impact.

I used this one for example when falling backwards off of a ladder, everything went into slow motion but the result was I got up unscathed and the only damage was my embarrassment.

As far as projection breakfalls go in Aikido I would say that if you ever find some high grade doing a Kote Geishe for example that actually sends you flying through the air you would be grateful for knowing the Aikido breakfall.

Having said that, we also used to do practice with bokkens where we had to walk along and breakfall over someone kneeling on the mat. Then practice breakfalling with someone coming at us from behind in which case you come up out of the breakfall, turning at the same time to face the oncoming attacker, with 'sword' up at the ready.

This also validated a use for the breakfall and still showed how all you were doing was harmonising with the ground no different to a ball or wheel.

Yeah, I know that - that's what I said.
However, if you land safely (on your back) in a judo fight, they say you've lost - so people try their best to land unsafely (on their front), and not avoid injury, in order not to lose the fight...

That seems completely contrary to the teaching of judo/martial arts to me, so I was wondering what the justification for it is.
Especially as, I believe, most top-flight judo fighters' bodies are approaching ruin at around 30.

That much depends on luck and how much you want to achieve.
It's much the same for top gymnasts I believe...
Well as you may know it is the same for Shodokan aikido to....
I'm still do ukemi now at 57, although not as much as I did.
I find it helps to loosen my back as I'm getting older as with that comes less elasticity in the back and leg muscles, although I continually continue to stretch....

I greatly enjoy watching the people who can sail through the air and land silently like USAF's Sulaiman Hakim but both because I am a large old man (6'8" 240lbs) and because I was taught that the task of uke is "attack, attack. attack" (Keisuke Ogawa) I only do large falls when the attempt to reach or control nage places me in a precarious position. An example is the tsuki kotegaeshi ura of Dwight Epps Sensei. He tenkans then steps back again as soon as uke's foot touches the ground so that uke must leap and breakfall or risk a separated shoulder. (He has to my knowledge never hurt a student) My experience is that a truthful attack that has a clear intention then defines the neccessary ukemi with equal clarity.

Judo ukemi...
After one "match" (I have trouble calling it a 'fight' because there are rules and referees) I was told that I'd knocked my opponent out with an ippon-seoi nage. We were both ikkyu at the time so his ukemi couldn't have been too shabby. Not really sure why the referee (from the same club as my opponent) awarded only waza-ari but I was already walking away from the throw when I heard it, so I walked (yes, walked) back to the opponent and put a hold-down on him - I think the bit of stimulation and chest compression woke him up. He put up a few groggy attempts to get out of the hold-down, and muttered "Good throw." after the match was over. That's the only time I've actually witnessed a competitive judo person getting knocked out by being thrown. (My next match, against a nikyu, with the same referee ended up with me throwing the guy, waiting, hearing waza-ari, picking him up again, and throwing him again - neither throw this time being as hard as the first match, but those were three of the cleanest, hardest waza-ari I've ever seen.) The rules I believe were changed shortly after that, and you're not allowed to hover, pick up, and throw again, but "homer" referees put people in danger no matter what happens.

A few years later, one of the rowers I had coached told me that he "had words" with another person while they were on different sides of watching an ice-hockey match. The usual push-push and then the person I had coached called up from nowhere the judo training he'd done before he started rowing (6 years earlier), threw the other fellow, (on his back, I assume) rendering him unconscious.

Remember - the population of people who train in Aikido, Judo, MMA, BJJ, wrestling, greco-roman, etc., are accustomed to landing on the ground with varying amounts of velocity. I'd submit that professional and amateur football players, ice-hockey players and a few other athletes are also pretty robust when hitting the ground, but the "rest of us" - those who haven't got the training, will be badly affected if someone tries to break the pavement with their torso or head.

The Ippon throw in judo is "Ok, you've thrown the guy cleanly, on his back, and with sufficient force (to knock him out or kill him if he doesn't know how to land safely)" If you haven't controlled your opponent sufficiently to land him (ok, or her) cleanly on his (her) back, then you don't get the full point - the opponent has partly escaped.
W

Judo ukemi...
After one "match" (I have trouble calling it a 'fight' because there are rules and referees) I was told that I'd knocked my opponent out with an ippon-seoi nage. We were both ikkyu at the time so his ukemi couldn't have been too shabby. Not really sure why the referee (from the same club as my opponent) awarded only waza-ari but I was already walking away from the throw when I heard it, so I walked (yes, walked) back to the opponent and put a hold-down on him - I think the bit of stimulation and chest compression woke him up. He put up a few groggy attempts to get out of the hold-down, and muttered "Good throw." after the match was over. That's the only time I've actually witnessed a competitive judo person getting knocked out by being thrown. (My next match, against a nikyu, with the same referee ended up with me throwing the guy, waiting, hearing waza-ari, picking him up again, and throwing him again - neither throw this time being as hard as the first match, but those were three of the cleanest, hardest waza-ari I've ever seen.) The rules I believe were changed shortly after that, and you're not allowed to hover, pick up, and throw again, but "homer" referees put people in danger no matter what happens.

A few years later, one of the rowers I had coached told me that he "had words" with another person while they were on different sides of watching an ice-hockey match. The usual push-push and then the person I had coached called up from nowhere the judo training he'd done before he started rowing (6 years earlier), threw the other fellow, (on his back, I assume) rendering him unconscious.

Remember - the population of people who train in Aikido, Judo, MMA, BJJ, wrestling, greco-roman, etc., are accustomed to landing on the ground with varying amounts of velocity. I'd submit that professional and amateur football players, ice-hockey players and a few other athletes are also pretty robust when hitting the ground, but the "rest of us" - those who haven't got the training, will be badly affected if someone tries to break the pavement with their torso or head.

The Ippon throw in judo is "Ok, you've thrown the guy cleanly, on his back, and with sufficient force (to knock him out or kill him if he doesn't know how to land safely)" If you haven't controlled your opponent sufficiently to land him (ok, or her) cleanly on his (her) back, then you don't get the full point - the opponent has partly escaped.
W

That's excellent; thank you Walter (for the stories and the explanation).
I guess that's the same reason why the pin used to be three (?) seconds: that's how long it would take for a samurai to draw his short sword and slit your throat...

That's excellent; thank you Walter (for the stories and the explanation).
I guess that's the same reason why the pin used to be three (?) seconds: that's how long it would take for a samurai to draw his short sword and slit your throat...

30 seconds "control", demonstrated enough control to (symbolically) have been able to draw tanto and finish the job...

That's excellent; thank you Walter (for the stories and the explanation).
I guess that's the same reason why the pin used to be three (?) seconds: that's how long it would take for a samurai to draw his short sword and slit your throat...

Just for the sake of flogging a dead horse...

When I was training in judo, my sensei and sempai drilled into us that when we throw a person in a competition, we attempt to throw him at least a foot under the surface of the mats - when they hit, if we nailed the throw, they hit hard. The other admonition was "and then grind another few inches".

If you're watching international judo competition (for example the Koga videos on YouTube) you'll see what look like fairly sloppy throws being awarded Ippon. Remember - the guys he's throwing are among the best in the world, doing all they can to not get thrown, but he's still throwing them. If it was most of the rest of us (and I include myself and a lot of aikido people) we'd be flat on our backs looking up (or waking up) before we realised Koga san was attacking us.

The only time I've been thrown harder than by some of my judo sensei (e.g., Doug Rogers not long after retirement from competition or George Lai Thom (5 time open weight champion of South Africa at 70 kg)) was by Kawahara shihan - tsuki-kotegaeshi... He doesn't fool around, and he expects ex judo guys like me to put some "garnish" on throws, making the uke work to protect themselves. I don't usually like to put that finishing touch on because I can no longer take it when the favour is returned - age catches up.. The other guy who really hurts to take ukemi from is Izumi Hiroaki during "randori" or "jyu-waza" because he launches you and then it's up to you to land safely - he doesn't guide you nicely to the ground because he's paying attention to the other guys who are attacking. Mess up an you discover new corners on your body by landing on them.

I know very well that my aikido is, and my judo was nothing special in the big world - I am clumsy and slow, and am always mystified when I get in the clutches of some of the godan or rokudan I've had the pleasure of meeting, but we all need to remember that you don't need ukemi until you need ukemi, and then you need ukemi real bad, and have to be able to call it up without mulling it over at all.

Sorry to dredge up an old topic, but this is something that I have been thinking about a bit lately. I'm going to include a few anecdotes here, so sorry if I waffle on a bit.

Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote:

The hardest (and paradoxically the easiest) uke to throw is one who keeps his centre in his hands, does not resist nage's technique, but rather follows it through to its logical conclusion, remaining fully co-ordinated and balanced all the time. The result is either a nice clean throw, beacuse the technique was correct, or as is often the case, the technique stops because nage has tried to throw/lock/manhandle uke while not following the principles of aikido.

This is exactly the sort of ukemi that my previous teacher tried to teach me. To be honest I was less than convinced when he was patiently coaching me through it, but I was persuaded by the fact that he could easily drill me into the mat no matter what I did, and I was completely unable to throw him. I am now by no means a master, but sensei said that when I got my shodan, it was my ukemi that he was most interested in. According to him, shodan is a sign that you can train safely and appropriately with anyone, anywhere, and obviously ukemi is a big part of that.

Now that I train at a different dojo where there is not a big emphasis placed on ukemi, it has allowed me to reflect on exactly what I learned with my last teacher.

Firstly and most obviously is the ability to receive powerful techniques. I was at a seminar last year, and I met a friend who trains at another dojo. During a break he came over to me and said "there is a guy here who clearly hates foreigners and I think he was trying to injure me". It turns out it was someone from my dojo. I told my friend that he doesn't have anything against foreigners. It's just that he trains like that all the time with everyone. He is used to his ukes having the ability to receive his techniques. I don't think my friend believed me, and he was a bit insulted because I think he is rather proud of his ukemi.

Secondly is the ability to resist and counter techniques effectively. It seems counter-intuitive, but just as mark said, by following the technique through to its conclusion and remaining balanced, relaxed, and coordinated, you can be very difficult to through if the technique is not done correctly. I didn't see this effect so much at my old dojo because I was training with some very talented people who were used to training with this sort of ukemi, but at my new dojo I find that only sensei and a few of the higher ranking students are able to throw me at all if I don't want them to.

What being able to do this sort of ukemi means is that you are able to guide tori through the technique and give them physical feedback as to which parts of their technique needs work from start to finish. This can be incredibly helpful to tori. On the other hand, it also means you can be a right bastard and completely mess with tori. I hope I fall into the first category rather than the second.

To David, who was talking about live vs dead ukemi, this was exactly the terminology that my sensei used. If I stiffened up to resist the technique or 'flopped' without feeling the technique through to the end, he would say I was being 'dead'.

Anyway, thanks for paying attention to my ramble. I appreciate any feedback you might have. I'm afraid not many people outside of my old dojo really get where I am coming from with this.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that this kind of ukemi can look very beautiful.

I agree, remaining strong, centred and sensitive under attack provides a powerful base for detecting and exploiting any opening in the opponent's execution. Stiffening up and resisting gives you none of that.