Responding here to this “thread” title (in “links”), these two phrases, “female human rights” and “Muslim cultures” are in many instances mutually exclusive.

Context: The most populous “Muslim” nation, Indonesia, in its key document affirms its creation and status as a non-Muslim nation. Perhaps that’s why Indonesia seems not a breeding ground for Islamafascist terrorist murderers.

In stark contrast, “Muslim” nations like Iran and Saudi Arabia intentionally deny unalienable human rights to females. The intentional tolerance of this female-enslaving culture in Western nations, carried out under the guise of “multiculturalism”, sows seeds for the destruction of these nations’ democracies from within. To tolerate evil is to support evil, whether that evil be “secular”, “religious”, or “cultural.”

Snowyflake is “on it”, committed to doing all she knows how to do to break the chains of slavery which allow Muslim women in “Muslim” nations to be raped, tortured, hacked into pieces, executed by hit squads on the streets (a common taliban action), tortured, imprisoned in their own homes and in state-supported prisons, stoned to death, and subjected to other nearly unspeakable and unconscionable acts of state-endorsed violence.

I liked the opinion piece posted by OW. However, there is a huge difference in saying that something is cultural and therefore we ought to ignore it and let women and children be brutalised by the men of that culture or taking a stand with the people inside that culture who wish to educate and enlighten. Unfortunately, OW would rather everyone minded their own business and if you don't he'll call you a racist. Incredible.

I feel sorry for anyone who lives next door to OW and would need his assistance in time of dire need. He'll just ignore you cuz it's got nowt to do wiv him.

A man’s job, a man’s sacred duty, is to protect the lives and safety of his wife, mother, daughters, nieces, grandmothers, aunts, and “girl” cousins at all costs, period.

And yet the woman's duty is to protect her husband, boy child, father and neighbour too. The value of loyalty is a double-edged issue, as tribalism can encourage people to disrespect other groups as less than their own.

Multi-culturalism is valuable in that it allows more open exchange of ideologies. Apostacy is the biggest no-no where people cannot have freedom of ideas and association because cultural rules are tied up with obedience and status.

I agree with ow above that demonising a group for being wrong and cruel when they are being obedient to perceived rules and laws, is wrong. I still say that we should be looking more openly at the political philosophies dressed up as right and wrong, and look at where laws give status and advantage to some over others, why that is and whether it should be categorised as right or wrong in the way it is currently assumed to be.

Sorry about that long sentence... I hope it made sense.

To us it is obviously stupid and cruel to want to hurt someone who has a different point of view. That is because we have a strong sense of fair play which we know it would benefit others to also have.

This thread or either of the organisations in this thread are not about demonising any particular group. It is about gaining basic human rights for women and girls. That they happen to be muslim or happen to live in tribal cultures is incidental. OW often gets the wrong end of the stick so please before saying anything, look at both websites and then make up your mind. Read the stories of abuse and success before passing judgement. OW didn't bother to do that and just assumed I was muslim bashing which is the furthest thing from my mind. Some people jump to conclusions not based on much fact....kind of like believers in invisible supreme beings.

Irrespective of the merits of this thread as a discussion topic entire unto itself, ever since 9/11 there has been a powerful anti-Muslim pressure-group in Christian countries which adopts a view similar to one held during WW2 when a popular phrase, even among schoolchildren, was "The only good German is a dead German!" The allied propaganda machine spewed untruths about soldiers bayonetting babies etetera, etc.

The Western anti-muslim Industry is alive and well and adequately financed. Its supporters seize upon any excuse to denigrate Muslims and find willing ears to regard any cultural differences as a sign of unacceptable behaviour.

It's not surprising that even educated people can be persuaded that any stick will do to beat them with.

Are you saying that the women inside these cultures are making it up, OW? Or perhaps you're suggesting that domestic violence as a cultural characteristic is acceptable. Neither of these websites serve the purpose of denigrating muslims and if that is how you take this campaign you're on crack.

It is about gaining basic human rights for women and girls in countries where the culture is that women and girls do not have the same rights and freedoms as the men in that culture. And if you see that as muslim bashing you really are looney tunes.

The Western anti-muslim Industry is alive and well and adequately financed. Its supporters seize upon any excuse to denigrate Muslims and find willing ears to regard any cultural differences as a sign of unacceptable behaviour.

This is an illogical statement. Just because there may be widespread anti-Muslim sentiment in the West does not mean there isn't sometimes good cause for those feelings. One has to use one's brain in cases like these, to recognize the difference between propaganda and truth. Muslims do NOT get a free pass to avoid criticism and condemnation simply because they are Muslim. When they do something "unacceptable," we have just as much of a right to express our opinions on them as we do with Christians, Jews, or anyone else, for that matter. Now, for my take on it, the horrid treatment of women in some Muslim nations is not "any excuse," it is a major problem, and I'll make no bones about standing up and saying yes, it IS unacceptable. I don't give a damn WHAT their "culture" says.

I have no particular beef with Muslims as a whole, but the behavior of their more conservative and radical sects is deplorable. Perhaps you missed the news showing how 25,000 Muslims went on a rampage in Bangladesh burning and looting Buddhist homes, temples, and businesses all because they "claim" a Buddhist man posted something on Facebook denigrating the Koran? Granted, no Americans were killed so it wasn't worthy of front page headlines or speeches by the president, but it happened. This is part of their "culture" too, but I suppose the Buddhists should just lie down and take it. I mean, who are THEY to condemn the actions of Muslims? It's part of their "culture" to pillage and burn in mobs the size of armies whenever they receive the slightest offense.

It would seem that Muslims have become the proverbial "sacred cow," the one religion out of thousands that is above being criticized or having their actions condemned. In that sense, non-Muslims become second class citizens -- just like many Muslim women.

Is it the 'culture' of Muslims, of whatever sect, or is it the 'culture' of poor, powerless, disenfranchised ignorant people, of whatever religion ?(Romans and Christians, Salem witch trials, Spanish Inquisition - all examples of the use of 'religious' or 'cultural' themes to achieve a politicval and/or economic aim)It seems to me there are some powerful vested interests within predominantly Muslim countries which gain from fomenting this kind of racial hatred and outrageous behaviour, just as our own current Right wing government gain from fostering hatred and condemnation of disabled and vulnerable people.Shirina, I think you're dead right in saying that Muslims ought not to be immune from criticism just because they are Muslims, But maybe it's important to look at just what we want to criticise, which in this case seems to be the demagogues who want to use Islam as a tool for promoting their own political ends, and who make use of the undisciplined emotions of usually an uneducated and powerless frightened population, just as currently in USA there is a prominent group which I believe seeks to use Christianity as a tool for promoting a not-dissimilar set of political ends. I wouldn't, on the basis of that, want to say I believe all Americans are racist, homophobic and against universal suffrage.I don't believe there's anything in the Q'ran that says it's OK to rampage through your neighbourhood killing your neighbours, but, as we all know, the Devil (and I use the term figurateively) quotes scripture for his own purposes.

I agree with you completely, boatlady, and the right-wing in America is becoming very much like the radical Muslims they claim to be fighting against. The only reason why America hasn't descended to that level of barbarity is because of secular law and a willingness to enforce it. Unfortunately for some Muslims in a few nations, there is no secular law, and that allows radical religious sects to do essentially what they please. In some Muslim nations, there are large swathes of territory where the government has almost no authority, and here is where the radicals thrive. No matter what secular laws the government adopts, they cannot or will not enforce them in these tribal regions.

My condemnation is not directed at the majority of Muslims or with Islam just as my disgust with many Christians in America is not directed specifically at Christianity or God. As with any religion, how one chooses to exercise their beliefs is where my condemnation lies.

Although female genital mutilations have been documented in a variety of faiths, including Christians, Muslims and Jews, some supporters of the Islamic faith claim that FGM is required practice. Yet scholars and theologians of Islam assert that female circumcision is not approved by their religious doctrines or any other religion. Theologians furthermore emphasize that in many major Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan, the procedure is almost never performed. Most of the African tribes that do perform this “operation,” believe that the excision is a custom decreed by their ancestors and must be upheld under all circumstances'

The practice of female genital mutilation/circumcision has dated back to ancient times. Female circumcision has existed for over 4,000-5,000 years originating in a period predating God’s covenant with Abraham to circumcise his people. The practice began in Egypt and was frequently performed by the ancient cultures of the Phoenicians, Hittites, and the ancient Egyptians.

21st. Century protestations therefore arrive a bit late, and coincidental with East-West tensions.

Shirina, I think I would want to say that the abuses you are concerned with are not to do with religious belief at all, but with the use of religion as a political tool, which i will agree is a bit easier in a theocracy.

I would also want to agree with Oftenwrong, that there is a great appetite in the Western world for any evidence to support the proposition that Islam is in some way evil or bad. ('Axis of Evil' was the phrase I think that started it), and I believe that this has led to an increase of racist crime and an upsurge of right-wing political movements.

Therefore, when rightly condemning the fact that women and girls are abused and oppressed in some countries, I feel it is more accurate and less inflammatory to focus on the fact that for example these are largely relatively poor agrarian societies, where many individuals have little education and where it is therefore arguably easier for those hungry for political power to create a social situation in which quite horrible acts are carried out in the name of 'Allah' or some other religious concept.

It's also often a characteristic of village communities that the representatives of law and order can find it difficult to maintain a professional distance and therefore to enforce the law.

The context in which the abuse and oppression of any group takes place is always a complex one, and particularly so in the case under discussion, and I for one am not clear how the situation of women in these countries can be bettered, except by the time-honoured process of grass-roots protest, leading after significant time to legal and social reform. I can't think of any worthwhile social reform which has followed a different pattern. If you can, please let me know.

21st. Century protestations therefore arrive a bit late, and coincidental with East-West tensions.

I would have said it's about time someone protested such a practice. Male and female genital mutilation in the name of religion is most bizarre. Why does God care if you have a clitoris or a foreskin? He made you in his image and then wants you to carve bits of yourself away????

When something is blatantly wrong, sticking your head in the sand is not the answer to correcting the problem.

I would very much appreciate you sending me a personal message with your reactions to viewing a male discharging nine rounds into the skull and brains of a helpless, innocent woman to the acclamation and with the approval of spectators (one of whom videoed the shooting), after first kidnapping, torturing, brutalizing, and raping her in concert with another male.

I would very much appreciate you sending me a personal message with your reactions to viewing a male discharging nine rounds into the skull and brains of a helpless, innocent woman to the acclamation and with the approval of spectators (one of whom videoed the shooting), after first kidnapping, torturing, brutalizing, and raping her in concert with another male.

I decline your request, RoB

I do not post the contents of other posters’ private messages to me on the public forum. I do not appreciate the fact that you have posted the content of my private message on the public forum.

I am sure you did not think I would appreciate the private message, RoB. If you wished to venture such offensive material, relevant to the discussion topic, this was the place to show your hand.

There are people who for reasons of belief, or feeling their status under threat, who will do things which free-thinking people wouldn't do. Religious belief, patriotism, unquestioning obedience or cowardice can lead some individuals to cause harm to others, just because they can get away with it.

The rule of law in a democratic country at least tries to judge everyone by the same standards. That is to their credit. Religious law is less open to moderation. There is much about Islamic politics which seems incomprehensible to reason and liberty. Nonetheless it is individuals who should be brought to international justice and not those who are held captive by the same political philosophy.

I would very much appreciate you sending me a personal message with your reactions to viewing a male discharging nine rounds into the skull and brains of a helpless, innocent woman to the acclamation and with the approval of spectators (one of whom videoed the shooting), after first kidnapping, torturing, brutalizing, and raping her in concert with another male.

I would very much appreciate you sending me a personal message with your reactions to viewing a male discharging nine rounds into the skull and brains of a helpless, innocent woman to the acclamation and with the approval of spectators (one of whom videoed the shooting), after first kidnapping, torturing, brutalizing, and raping her in concert with another male.

I decline your request, RoB

I do not post the contents of other posters’ private messages to me on the public forum. I do not appreciate the fact that you have posted the content of my private message on the public forum.

I am sure you did not think I would appreciate the private message,1 RoB. If you wished to venture such offensive material,2 relevant to the discussion topic, this was the place to show your hand.3

You’ve not addressed, or even acknowledged, the content of my post of Tuesday 2 October 2012 at 05:48, “I do not post the contents of other posters’ private messages to me on the public forum. I do not appreciate the fact that you have posted the content of my private message on the public forum.” As publicly posting my own private message neither requires granting specific permission from myself to myself nor violates a confidence, I’ve chosen to publicly post herein my private message of Monday 1 October 2012 at 01:39 in its entirety.

Please view this video. After doing so, I would very much appreciate you sending me a personal message with your reactions to viewing a male discharging nine rounds into the skull and brains of a helpless, innocent woman to the acclamation and with the approval of spectators (one of whom videoed the shooting), after first kidnapping, torturing, brutalizing, and raping her in concert with another male.

I am unaware of any content authored and referenced by me in my private message of Monday 1 October 2012 at 01:39 of which a person concerned about the routine extreme brutalization of innocent Muslim women on our planet in the 21st Century would not appreciate being made aware.

The referenced video is not “offensive”, it is harshly informative. Conversely, the heinous act documented by the referenced video, perpetrated upon an innocent Muslim woman by a bestial male to the accolades of bestial male spectators, is not only offensive, it is despicable, heinous, and immoral.

Assuming adherence to applicable laws, Forumotion policies, and Cutting Edge rules, I am unaware of any requirement that I must be granted prior approval to convey substantive content via private message and/or public post as I choose.

The intent of my private message was to inform.

As I do not and will not post the contents of another poster’s private messages on the public forum without that poster’s permission, and as I do not appreciate anyone posting the content of my private messages on the public forum without my permission, please be assured that, barring unforeseen emergency circumstances, I shall not send to you any further private messages.

Methought, thank you for your comments above.The issue under discussion is an emotive one, and it is good to hear a response that relies on reason rather than emotion.I feel, and have said already, that an emotional response to this issue serves no-one's interests, and indeed may well do harm.

Ivan notes that these organizations exist to combat denial of human rights to Muslim women and girls living in “Muslim” countries nations through education and action, including sending letters and emails to governments to cease (a) stoning women for sexual “crimes”, (b) perpetrating female genital mutilation on women an d girls, (c) physically and sexually abusing and raping women and girls.

Ivan also notes that this is a campaign by Muslim women to change this culture from inside; thus, this is a real “grassroots” campaign.

At what point does natural concern give way to prurient interest, I wonder?There has always been a segment of our popular press which covers salacious topics in a condemnatory manner that lends a veneer of legitimacy .

oftenwrong wrote:At what point does natural concern give way to prurient interest, I wonder?

I doubt if you wonder about anything concerning this topic except how best to derail substantive conversation about this topic.

oftenwrong wrote:There has always been a segment of our popular press which covers salacious topics in a condemnatory manner that lends a veneer of legitimacy .

As the two links provided by Snowyflake, originally posted by Ivan, and reposted by me twenty-three minutes ago do not link to “our popular press”, one can correctly infer and conclude that the text referenced above is intended to derail substantive conversation about the thread topic.

The “longcomings” of Wikipedia are an open secret. Due to intense peer review by interested parties and increasingly rigid citation protocols, Wikipedia has become a reliable source in itself and an excellent source of other sources.

oftenwrong wrote:That makes it a ready jumping-off point for research but severely limits the academic value of any particular entry.

Incorrect. In fact, amongst more than fifty sources that I’ve personally checked both on and off the Internet, Wikipedia is the only source that “tells the real story” of a 1969 double murder on the campus of a major US university of which I know the details via eyewitness testimony. Every other source contains erroneous information.

oftenwrong wrote:Without an assay mark of some kind, an item could be priceless or valueless.

And so, in 1969, the history professor at the third or fourth highest ranked undergraduate institution of higher education in the United States, a man with five degrees in history, a bachelor degree from Harvard, a master’s degree from Yale, a master’s degree from Oxford, a Ph.D. from Columbia, and a Ph.D. from Cambridge, told several undergraduate Black students, including me, that there was not enough Black history “extent” (exact word which I’ll never forget) to warrant a Black history course of study, or even one Black history class, but that he would agree to include a Black history unit within one of his already existent classes.

oftenwrong wrote:So there seems little point in reproducing screeds of text which may prove to be unreliable.

Your chosen term “screeds” seems straight out of the Mormon “defense manual” used by Temple Mormons to defend Joseph Smith’s and the successor Propjets’ validity. Wikipedia has proven to be rock-solid reliable on many topics, including the aforementioned 1969 double murder. Once again, your disdain of Wikipedia has been known by me since around September-October 2010. I didn’t care then, and I don’t care now.

Furthermore, your disdain for the thread topic and your apparent efforts to derail substantive conversations about the thread topic are also known by me and have been known by me since around December 2010, when you apparently attempted to derail an almost identical thread topic on MSN UK. I didn’t care then, and I don’t care now.

Last edited by RockOnBrother on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total

How now brown OW? Uninformed opinions only serve to prove that ignorance and denial abound on certain topics. It is my hope that others are not as lazy in their thinking and will at least look at the websites and help where they can.

Women and girls are entitled to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that are denied to them in many countries due to cultural and religious reasons. These two websites inform and allow people to be actively involved in helping governments legislate so that women and girls are protected by law.

Tunisian civil society is rallying in support of a young woman who was raped by police officers in what they say is part of a broader assault on women's rights by religious conservatives. There is widespread outrage after 27-year-old victim was summoned by the investigating judge on Wednesday to face chargers of "indecency" from the two men accused of raping her, in what many argue is an attempt by the authorities to intimidate her.

Faïza Skandrani, the head of the Equality and Parity organisation, told Al Jazeera that the case was an important one for two reasons: it marked the first time a woman allegedly raped by the police had taken the case to court, and it was the first time the authorities were trying to publicly shame a woman into dropping such charges.

"The investigating judge is turning her from the victim to the accused, to help the police officers get away with it," she said. "I've heard about similar cases in Pakistan, but this is a first in Tunisia. Next they will be charging her with prostitution."

INDIA - Acid Attacks Are Living Death For Women, Acid Cheap, Impunity Rampant!Source: Safe World For Women

They came in the dead of night, broke into her home as she slept and poured a cocktail of acids over her face -- burning her skin, melting her eyelids, nose, mouth and ears, and leaving her partially deaf and almost blind.

Her crime? She had spurned their sexual advances.

Nine years on, Sonali Mukherjee, 27, is appealing to the Indian government for medical support for skin reconstructive surgery as well as tougher penalties on her three assailants, who were released on bail after only three years in prison. Either that, she says, or authorities should give her the right to kill herself. Euthanasia is illegal in India.

"For the last nine years, I am suffering ... living without hope, without future. If I don't have justice or my health, my only way out is to die," she says, sitting on a bed in a sparsely furnished room above a Sikh temple in south Delhi.

"I don't want to live half a life, with half a face."

Sonali's desperate plea highlights the heinous crime of throwing acid on women in India, the lack of support for victims, and lax laws which have allowed attackers to get away with what activists say is the equivalent of murder.

Acid violence - where acid is intentionally thrown to maim, disfigure or blind - occurs in many countries across the world, and is most common in Cambodia, as well as Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan and India where deep-rooted patriarchy persists.

Around 1,500 acid attacks are reported globally each year, with 80 percent of them on women, says London-based charity, Acid Survivors Trust International, adding this is a gross under-estimate as most victims are scared to speak out.

Add another report, about some 1500 women being turned back from Mecca because they were not accompanied by male relatives on the Haj, as is required by local Law.

There is more than enough injustice in the World to keep RoB and fellow-travellers frothing for years, but no reports of any Westerners actually taking up the cudgels, save from within the safety of their own culture.

Add another report, about some 1500 women being turned back from Mecca because they were not accompanied by male relatives on the Haj, as is required by local Law.

And add another attempt to derail (a) substantive conversation about the thread topic, and (b) my personal participation in substantive conversation about the thread topic, to the dustbin of your pilgrimage.

oftenwrong wrote:There is more than enough injustice in the World to keep RoB and fellow-travellers frothing for years…

And there are more than enough injustices occurring in the world right now to keep oftenwrong busy attempting to derail substantive conversations about injustices for decades.

oftenwrong wrote:… but no reports of any Westerners actually taking up the cudgels, save from within the safety of their own culture.

And there are no reports of oftenwrong taking up any just cause, either on the scene or from within the safety of his own corner of an insignificant isle from whence came giants such William Wilberforce.

Tunisian civil society is rallying in support of a young woman who was raped by police officers in what they say is part of a broader assault on women's rights by religious conservatives. There is widespread outrage after 27-year-old victim was summoned by the investigating judge on Wednesday to face chargers of "indecency" from the two men accused of raping her, in what many argue is an attempt by the authorities to intimidate her.

Faïza Skandrani, the head of the Equality and Parity organisation, told Al Jazeera that the case was an important one for two reasons: it marked the first time a woman allegedly raped by the police had taken the case to court, and it was the first time the authorities were trying to publicly shame a woman into dropping such charges.

"The investigating judge is turning her from the victim to the accused, to help the police officers get away with it," she said. "I've heard about similar cases in Pakistan, but this is a first in Tunisia. Next they will be charging her with prostitution."

INDIA - Acid Attacks Are Living Death For Women, Acid Cheap, Impunity Rampant!Source: Safe World For Women

They came in the dead of night, broke into her home as she slept and poured a cocktail of acids over her face -- burning her skin, melting her eyelids, nose, mouth and ears, and leaving her partially deaf and almost blind.

Her crime? She had spurned their sexual advances.

Nine years on, Sonali Mukherjee, 27, is appealing to the Indian government for medical support for skin reconstructive surgery as well as tougher penalties on her three assailants, who were released on bail after only three years in prison. Either that, she says, or authorities should give her the right to kill herself. Euthanasia is illegal in India.

"For the last nine years, I am suffering ... living without hope, without future. If I don't have justice or my health, my only way out is to die," she says, sitting on a bed in a sparsely furnished room above a Sikh temple in south Delhi.

"I don't want to live half a life, with half a face."

Sonali's desperate plea highlights the heinous crime of throwing acid on women in India, the lack of support for victims, and lax laws which have allowed attackers to get away with what activists say is the equivalent of murder.

Acid violence - where acid is intentionally thrown to maim, disfigure or blind - occurs in many countries across the world, and is most common in Cambodia, as well as Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan and India where deep-rooted patriarchy persists.

Around 1,500 acid attacks are reported globally each year, with 80 percent of them on women, says London-based charity, Acid Survivors Trust International, adding this is a gross under-estimate as most victims are scared to speak out.

Until there are laws in place providing sanctions against wrong-doers the harm-doers will do harm.

How does one influence a government to introduce greater gender equality where the religion dictates inhumanity against women?

There has to be a perceived gain in order to induce change. To my mind the best bargaining tool is the number of people who want to migrate to the West. It often seems that many wish to move here without fully comprehending that it is equality and a meritocracy, at least in principle, that makes for a peaceable cooperation between different cultural groups.

Among girls aged 15-18 in Indonesia, 86-100% have undergone some form of FGM.*According to a 2003 Population Council study surveying eight sites in six provinces

In November 2010, the Indonesian Ministry of Health passed a regulation [No. 1636/MENKES/PER/XI/2010 regarding “Female Circumcision”] legitimizing the practice of female genital mutilation (FGM) and authorizing medical professionals to perform it. Though this “medicalization” of FGM permits a procedure that is harmful to girls and women and represents a violation of the ethical code governing the professional conduct of nurses, midwives and other health care workers, efforts to overturn the legislation have been unsuccessful; human rights groups on the ground fear an increase in FGM due to this regulation.

Please join Equality Now and our partner Kalyanamitra in calling on the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Women Empowerment and Child Protection to live up to their domestic and international obligations by:• Repealing the 2010 Ministry of Health regulation legitimizing the practice of FGM• Enacting and implementing comprehensive legislation banning FGM with strong penalties for violators• Conducting public awareness-raising and education campaigns to change cultural perception and beliefs on FGM and acknowledging FGM as a human rights violation with harmful consequences

Also join us in calling upon the Indonesian Society of Obstetrics & Gynecology, the Indonesian National Nurses Association and the Indonesian Midwives Association to live up to their international obligations as members of the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics (FIGO), the International Council of Nurses (ICN) and the International Confederation of Midwives (ICM) by:• Publicly condemning FGM in all its forms and its medicalization• Ensuring that strong measures are put into place to discipline Association members who practice FGM• Urging the government to repeal the 2010 regulation, working with them to enact a law banning FGM and promoting a comprehensive strategy and public education against the practice.

So, methought, are you saying that education and offering political asylum are the things that in your view may help to improve matters?

Hi boatlady

I would love to see the imprisoned women of Islam offered asylum and education - yes - and then see if they can change the culture from the inside out. Thinking that there is no other way is the problem in the first place. Realising that the sky doesn't fall if you start to look at the world differently is the first hurdle for so many people - men and women - trapped in a mysogynist culture.

Hello boatlady and methought. Thank you for looking at this. If you go to either website there are government addresses and emails that you can send your thoughts to with guidelines on what to say and how to say it. There are judges as well who are presiding over current cases (women convicted of adultery and sentenced to stoning or rape victims imprisoned for sexual crimes etc). Islamic women are taking a stand against violence inside their own culture. No one, regardless of culture or religion, should live in fear for their own safety as a matter of course. In spite of what a certain contributor to this thread implies, it is our business and it is neighbourly to help those who want our help.

What you can do in this country is support government initiatives that tackle domestic violence, female genital mutilation and forced marriage.

We can all instigate that righteous glow within ourselves which comes from criticising things those awful foreigners get up to, but rarely wonder whether some of our habitual attitudes might be thought offensive in another culture.

To a dispassionate observer it might seem comical how quickly "The West" has changed from almost universal homophobia to the acceptance of Gay orientation to the point of legalising same-sex marriage ceremonies. Less than forty years ago a man could go to prison in Britain for "importuning" a member of the same sex. Policemen hid in the broom cupboards of public lavatories so as to give evidence in Court of such behaviour. WW2 saviour Alan Turing whose cracking of Nazi codes at Bletchley Park saved untold numbers of allied lives, was after the war forced to accept injections of male hormone to "cure" his homosexual tendencies. By the same kind of people who now jump on a bandwagon of filthy foreigners' habits.

The supreme irony must be that a British Court has just denied sanctuary to a Nigerian man, Olalekan Ayelokun who explained how as a practising Gay he would be harshly punished if returned to Nigeria where homosexuality is still a Criminal Act. When he now does get back to Nigeria he'd better hope nobody there knows about his evidence to the UK Border Agency.

If one is observing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, I don't see how that instigates a 'righteous glow' or 'criticises those awful things foreigners get up to'. I am not worried about what foreigners get up to. I am concerned that humans, men and women and children, have the right to a happy and safe life free from fear, abuse, neglect and tyranny. It's an idealistic dream I know but as I have said many times nothing changes if you stand by and do nothing. These two charities support muslim women who want to effect change in their cultures. Why a certain self-righteous do-nothing poster sees this as a problem is beyond me.

We can all instigate that righteous glow within ourselves which comes from criticising things those awful foreigners get up to

I've been over this before, OW.

The things we criticize are things that no human ANYWHERE wishes to be subjected to. That is the commonality -- our humanity. Whether they are foreign or not, Muslim or not, is irrelevant. Humans are humans no matter where you go, no matter which culture you're enmeshed within. Humans do not like pain, they do not like fear, they do not like confinement, and they do not like injustice, all of which some of these belief systems are guilty of inflicting.

You're essentially comparing cultural idiosyncrasies such as food, music, and dress with whether women like to be tortured, raped, falsely imprisoned, or shunted to third-class citizen status. I don't believe anyone here is criticizing anything these women in those cultures WANT to have happen to them. We are not saying, "No, you can't listen to that music" or "No, you can't dress like that." Those are things women may want to do. But I defy you to find any women, even a Muslim woman, who without duress will tell you that they enjoy the looming threat of being lashed if they're seen in public with non-family males. Show me one who believes she deserves to be thrown in jail for reporting a rape. Go on, I dare you.

but rarely wonder whether some of our habitual attitudes might be thought offensive in another culture.

Oh, believe me, I've thought about it. As someone who has lived among a widely diverse set of cultures, I have been on several "sides" of the issue. And after all of that, I have noticed a pattern. Often times, those "Western" values that offend other cultures the most is how free we are. Yep, cliche, I know, but that's the truth. What I mean by this is -- they don't like the fact that women can run around in short skirts or that we can express our opinions, especially on religion, openly and without "morality police" hauling us away. We don't have young girls burning to death in a fire because the girls didn't evacuate with the proper head covering, our women are allowed to vote, hold jobs, drive cars, and hold positions of authority. Oh, the horror, the absolute terror!

While what we do in the West might be "immoral" in their eyes, what we do in the West is not CRIMINAL ... and that makes all the difference in the world. Many of their laws focus on enforcing religious morality, not actually protecting anyone. They can look at us with disdain if they wish to, but we're not hauling women out to fields and shooting them with lynch mob justice. Ours is a society built upon Rule of Law while many of their societies are built around Rule of Man.

Now let's look at what often happens when we exercise our own culture. When we in the West "criticize" their culture, we sign petitions, we take our redresses to agencies such as Amnesty International. We write letters, we beg, we plead. But what happens when we do something they don't like? They storm embassies and murder ambassadors, they send threats to media organizations like HBO, they threatened to behead teachers who name a teddybear "Muhammad." They blow things up, kidnap civilians and saw their heads off with dull knives, they destroy Hindu and Buddhists temples, murder cartoonists, or stand outside the Danish embassy in London chanting, "Nuke Denmark, nuke the USA. We will invade Denmark and take their women as war booty!" Need I post the video of that? And that occurred right there on the streets of your own capital, not in some far away Middle Eastern city.