Welcome.. I want to thank you for your interest in helping the sport we all love so much..

This is going to be a long preamble to the start of our work but please read this through so you understand my issues and reasoning.

I envision the points table as a tree.. There are many branches on that tree but right now there is only one strong branch - multiple turns.. All of the other branches are very short and a few have died..

This is obviously due to the points per second, the high risk of some tricks and the hours of training investment vs tricks that fit into a trick run.

I think we will all agree that:

Higher risk tricks should pay more

Tricks that take more time should pay more.

Tricks that are more difficult to learn and perform should pay more.

We want to have a product that appeals to more people.

Most tricks have what is called a 'transfer of knowledge'.. i.e. you learn 4 180-turns and you have a pretty fair start on multiples. You start multiples by using the skills you have already mastered while learning the 4 turns. You learn a 540 using the skills you perfected learning a 360 and then you use those same skills to learn a 720.. At this point it is really a moot point whether the multiple is a BB, FF, whatever.. It is the same skill set. You have built upon existing skills to move up that branch of skill..

To move into wake turns requires introducing an entirely new skill set.. You are once again at the bottom step and have to work to move up the ladder.. But, like multiples, once you have mastered the basic wake turns you can then built on that existing skill set to move up to the more advanced wake turns.. BUT to get that basic skill set you had to start from scratch.. Which takes a lot of training time.. An investment that right now does not pay off in tournament..

That coupled with the fact that multiples are over paid when compared to the other skill sets (or you could say the other skill sets have been grossly underpaid) is why we are seeing run after run of multiples and haven't seen a set of wake tricks in over 10 years..

Right now the only people who are competitive at the top level are people with a natural proclivity to multiple turns.. Yes, it took all of them a lot of hard work and dedication, I certainly don't want to diminish that, but a person who doesn't have that proclivity is lost. A person who has a proclivity to flips and wake tricks just can't compete with the multiple turn skier.

This inequity came about many years ago when a group of us (Yes, I am part of the problem) revised the points and put great emphisis on multiples.. At that time they were being judged so harshly and paid so little for the risk that they were dying.. Only a very few skiers were doing them and getting paid.. So we lowered the judging standard AND raised the point values.. In retrospect we should have done one or the other, but not both..

So the time has come to make all tricks equitable based on the criteria we will be distilling here in this committee..

I received an email from Peter O with factors for an algorithm to use for arriving at a score for every trick.. Geoff Blaauw also sent me an algorithm (much simpler but maybe not as comprehensive) that he feels we should try..

I am asking Peter and Geoff to present those algorithms here so we can pick and choose from both of them and find a starting point.. OR maybe we will look at them and just throw them away.. It's up to the committee.. I am not the boss, chairman, or grand poo-bah of this.. This is OUR committee and everyone has a voice and everyone's opinions will be weighed equally.. I am only a facilitator to get the ball rolling.. I look to you, the skiers and coaches, to carry this through to the end..

There will be an exception to the 'equality' of the committee members.. When it comes to grading tricks I am going to ask that only people who have actually done the hard yards and learned a trick voice opinons on the difficulty of those tricks.. I dont care if you can do every multiple turn, if you haven't tried to learn a flip and crashed and burned to the point of success or finally giving up then please dont comment on flips.. You simply cant speak with authority on tricks you haven't lived through..

In Mulwalla I spoke with Peter Fleck about the issue of dying tricks due
to the points per second value and the inequity of many tricks point
values. Pete gave me a list of the tricks he thinks need to be revised and his opinion on those points. I will post those in my next post..

Here are the scores Peter F suggested in Mulwala. I rounded them to the nearest 25pt value.. That's something I think we need to stick to to help instant scoring.. For
tricks with a few scores the first is 2-foot surface, second is 1-foot
surface, third is 2-foot wake, fourth is 1-foot wake, fifth is
wake-to-wake. For step tricks it is surface, wake, wake-to-wake..

I
will let Pete defend these scores but I spoke to him at length and he
has a lot of reasoning behind every suggestion.. And as we all know Pete
can do or has done every frigging trick in the book plus a few that
aren't..

Toe turn to the back.I did one of those on 3rd try, never attempted on shoe skis. I was 22 and had Mike Seiple. Driving the boat while coaching me. Takes lots of balls to do that first one...just does not seem like anything but disaster will occur as you do not seem to have control over the outcome. Once you do a couple you realize it is easier than doing a FB on 2 feet. I did not know the comparison at that time because i had tried about 50 FB's with no sucess of any kind with any stretch of the imagination. I made my first FB the next day. Then missed the next 100.

Conclusion - fairly easy trick....but now you are in a cul de sac with only one way out..

For me the step FB should carry more points than a 2 foot 360 FF or BB. I can do them on shoes. Did only one on my feet long line as the boat was slowing down right at the exact right time. This is a ballzy trick to learn and to do.

The 2 foot 3's can be missed but still alive to attempt again. The miss on the step FB is pretty much 99% you are swimming in.

Done them on shoes. Never done one at trick speed on my feet long line.Reason: the ones i made on shoes at 38mph were not sending me welcome notes for the feet version

I could do them pretty much every time on shoes for my short relationship with them.

I told Lane after make a few in one pass "when done properly they feel like jumping off the kitchen table to your back". Can usually feel that trick for the next couple of hours. I assume chiropractic implications can be realized 20 years later...

2.difficulty (which includes time to train to get the trick,time taken to keep the trick,challenge of the trick and risk factor of the trick,) and

3.spectator appeal

Have a look and let me know how it sits with you

TIME-We calculate each trick into the time it would take for a top 5 open skier to competently perform .We then give 15 seconds a total value of 5000. In other words for every 0.1 of a second the trick takes approx. 33 points is allocated to its score or 1 second is equal to 333 points based on the trick being performed by an open skier per the rules

Difficulty-We calculate difficulty into 1000 points basing 1000 points being the highest challenge trick we understand to be possible the (which includes time to train to get the trick,time taken to keep the trick,challenge of the trick and risk factor of the trick,)

Spectator Factor-Finally we take spectator viewing into account giving 1000 points to the trick we perceive is most wanting to be seen and most desired by new and old skiers,open and beginners

We then add the 3 together and we divide by 3

EG

The Examples below are only guesses the decision for time difficulty and spectator would be subject to a selected committee of course.

I would assume that Pete has no concerns with the scores for toe turns as they left unmentioned? I think they are scored fairly and accurate as they are, but someone did make a point to me once that a toe up is worth 400, yet a downgraded toe BF is only 350.

Mulitple turns - I think they are scored fairly, as the values for 180's seem accurate, and a 540 FB is simply 2 FBs and a BF, plus an extra 150 for stringing the 3 turns together...seems fair.

One foot turns - I agree with Richard - BF is far harder than a FB and deserves a 50-100 point increase.

Line turns - Same thing that Richard said....I learnt a 360 FF far sooner and easier then the mind f*&$K it was to learn steps. 550-600 for a step back seems more fitting. All multiples would then have to be adjusted after to match.

Wake turns - Tried the 180s a couple of times...more difficult than standard turns but nothing extreme, just very time consuming. Never tried, but anyone doing a WW 360 is ballsy and deserves to get paid well for it, for the amount of time it takes and difficulty.

That's what I got so far for what it's worth anyway, will add more input and thoughts as we go on

Hi AllNeed to do also some house keeping in basic points value.Points Value should be in 50,100,150 etc.Front one foot from 30 to 25, 2 one foots = 50 points,Sit down stand up 1ft should be going down on one foot and then back up on 1ft, Value up from 40 to 50 points.Wave 10 points. That's fine.Just makes adding up so much simpler in the boat.Thanks

Hi AllTOWER START.Great grass root starts trick but NZ is mostly the only country that uses it.Points value when down so it Killed it.Bring the value back up by 50 points, Also you could add a new start trick.Flying toe tumble tower start and it would be done this way.Jump off the dock/tower and land to do a tumble start, tumble round to the front,load the handle onto the foot and then do the toe start.This may get elite skiers doing flyers plus the spectators love watching a tower start.Thanks

We use the Towers in Canada whenever possible. Have a few sites with 4-5 Meter Bridges. Bridge is lined with spectators. Cool. One with a rock face straight up to about 4 - 5 Meters just to the side of the start dock. Very Very Cool start since all of the spectators are sitting right there on the rock.

Agree we could up the points - but need to increase the height maybe. right now minimum is 2.5 meters.... :(

We have a Kid in Canada that does this. Stand on "Tower" (Bridge) back facing the boat...front faceing the crowd on the bridge. ONe hand on rope. Rope tight - Back Lay 1/2 twist...tumble up.... Very cool.

All the tower stuff sounds cool but can we get back to the subject of trick points??? If you want to introduce new tricks this is not the place..

Wake turns take a lot of time and are more difficult.. Wake turn in - not so much - but wake out is a bitch, was for me anyway..

Most wake turn sequences start from out to in.. you have to be farther out of the curl, then cut to the wake and time the turn so it happens in the air, land, ski to the opposite wake and do it going out, stop your momentum and do it all over in the opposite direction..

That takes a LOT of time.. I would guess it takes 4x as long as a set of tic-tocs.. Plus it has the added difficulty of getting air and landing..

I want to ensure everyone has opportunity to voice opinions.. how long to do that ??.. I dunno.. No reason to hurry through.. We have some time up our sleeves.. But not a lot boys and girls so lets get this rolling.. I just got my computer back AGAIN.. It was in the shop for nearly 2 weeks, I got it back and it was still screwed up so back it went.. Seems to be working now so I will try to help this along. but as I said at the onset I am not the boss here.. I am just a facilitator for the others involved..

Here is where I sit on trick points.. I am close to the points Peter Fleck put forward.. I would increase some wake tricks and decrease some multiples and the toe up.. I have a REAL problem with runs made of all multiples.. If you show me a 540 I know you can do a 360.. I don't need to see it.. I want to see something using a different skill set, not the same skill set over and over.. I am in favor of cutting back o the number of multiples allowed.. Doing that would require skiers to introduce new categorizes of tricks in the finals at the next worlds.. If I was King of Barefooting I would say 6 multiples per round.. I would also reward skiers for including more categories.. A skier who does 2 categories of tricks would get the published scores.. A skier who included a 3rd category would get a bonus, if they did 4 categories the bonus would increase.. I would pay for variety.. In my mind the skier who can do toe turns, multiples, flips, wake turns, step over turns all in the same round is the better skier than a skier who has mastered just turns.. Kinda like the overall.. a specialist should never beat the all round complete skier for overall.. I also agree 102% with Rob G about the scores being multiples of 25.. If we want instant scoring to work we need to make it easier to add up quickly in the boat.. No matter what we do with multiples the same guys and girls are still gonna win at the elite level.. The only difference will be they are showing us more skill sets and making the pass more interesting to someone who has no idea what they are seeing.. Tower starts?? Most of them are just crap.. Skier jumps off and lands feet straight down for every different start.. When I see a skier do a dock flier I can tell you if tghey are doing a deepie or a tumble.. For a tower start they look exactly the same.. call a slow, plop off the tower.. I would change how that works completly, but that is for another topic.. If anyone wants to start the topic feel free.. You guys can start as many topics as you wish and invite whomever you wish to be involved in any topic.. This is, after all, the public forum, YOUR forum..

One person's boredom (not sure how they're boring but whatever) is another's excitement. If anyone can explain to me how watching the top 10 skiers in the world do run after run of [boring] multiple turn tricks then I really do wanna have a good old chat with them - as a fellow spectator, not as a judge. I do have a certain sympathy with the idea and could support a proposal to limit multiples to a maximum of (say) 4 of a similar kind (e.g. 4 x 2 foot, 4 x 1 foot), but I cannot support a limit of 6 per round regardless of category. Way too harsh for all those that have now mastered the art.

If you wanna see more of the less-seen tricks like wake turns and flips etc. then raise the points for them and they will come out of the wood-work for all to see. There's no need to ban, restrict or limit anything further than they already are - just ramp up the points and watch what happens.

Score values: being in multiples of 25 makes life easy but make it multiples of 50 and then it's even easier. Save for Waves and Hops that need to be down in the 10's and 20's for obvious reasons.

Tower starts: I agree with Foot. I really don't know what all the fuss was about. They haven't done anything for the sport in my view except make some headaches for organisers.

Edited by Andy Harris - 09/Jun/2014 at 17:33

Keeping it Real. The Europe & Africa Confederation: Often Imitated - Never Duplicated!

I don't think that the points are unfairly set for multiple turns, as I said before - a back to front seems fairly scored at 200, a FF 360 at 450, and so on. A lot of skiers still get knocked on their multiple turns and will come out anywhere from 500-2000 points short on their trick runs, so all multiples are not suddenly a guaranteed trick once you learn to do a 720, there's still a lot of work involved to get everything paid in tournament.

If you want to see the top athletes doing more variety tricks, the tricks need to be worth the points per second. Toe turns are efficient, and that's why they are probably the second most used trick in the top ranked tier of skiers. Line turns take a lot more time and are not worth the points for the time it takes, same goes for wake turns. I don't know if we need to re-write the whole points table, just adjust a few points values on the top end and simplify the low-end trick values as far as setting them at multiples of 25 or 50.

The bonus for more trick "categories" in a run seems unnecessary, as the guys that are winning right now do utilize different categories.KSO and Small'z are the two top trickers on the planet right now and they have a variety in their trick runs. Their trick runs at the Worlds this year consisted of Multiples, One foot turns, Line turns and Toe Turns. A pure multiple turn specialist will be maxed out at around 8000 points (give or take), with a few one foot turns, a toe turn or a line turn or two, you can bump that up to the 9000s. Start using three different trick "categories" and you're now above the 10,000 mark...etc.

For me a problem with multiple turns and the fact they are overpaid when compared to the rest of the tricks is EVERYONE is learning multiples before they try anything else.. The people with a natural proclivity for turns have an advantage and they stick around and continue.. Those that dont have that (maybe they are good at something else but cant compete due to the points per second (PPS) disparity) and they get the sh*t kicked out of them and go away and dont come back..

KSO and David ONLY put other categories in their runs after they have maxed out with the allowable number of multiples.. We need to corrrect the PPS disparity so multiple aren't the only thing a young tricker has on their agenda..

How many categories of tricks did you concentrate on when you were up and coming?? What variety of high degree of difficulty tricks did you study besides multiples???

And your point that DAvid and KSO use more categories is a moot point in this discussion.. You're missing my point.. This is about ALL the skiers learning more categories, not just KSO and David who already can do any trick in the book.. My point is we need VARIETY.. The only way we will get variety is to limit multiples or make somehting else pay more than it is worth just like we did for multiples years ago..

To say they are paid fairly coz a 180 pays X so a multiple should pay Y is comparing turns against turns.. When compared to all of the many tricks we dont see any more due to the PPS disparity they have been OVERPAID since you were wearing an X-Small wet suit..

Yes we need to be done by September or early October at latest... But as I said I am not going to put a drop dead date on this yet.. We still have some time and I want everyione to have opportunity to voice an opinion..

Andy, the evidence that runs of multiples are boring is proven by the deafening SILENCE from our spectators.. "What spectators???" everyone asks.. My point exactly.. If it was exciting then we would have spectators.. Wake Boardiing has spctators coz that big air stuff is somnethig the people sitting on a couch in TV land can relate to.. They KNOW big air is hard and dangeroous.. They've known that since they were kids.. Show them run after run of multiples and they think "That doesn't look too hard or dangerous" and they turn the TV channel to NASCAR...

To the folks who tell me we don't have spectators coz we dont have instant scoring and they don't know who is winning, I say BS.. If it was really exciting to watch they wouldn't care who was winning.. Only we care who is winning.. The people in TV land only care about DANGER, MAYHEM, SPECTACULAR in the extreme sports.. If people really cared about who was winning NOBODY would have watched those spectacular freestyle videos from Andre, nobody would watch You Tube, nobody would watch anything but competition.. And it looks like competition is the last thing they watch..

So lets get the PPS correct and fair and lets put a variety of spectacular tricks in front of the people (like we had when people actually did watch barefooting) and then we will see..

Don't get me wrong.. I KNOW multiple are spectacular.. But do 50 of them in front of anyone and they will lose interest..

Foot, I think that should be your new catch phrase mate, lol. I wish I did, but I don't have all the solutions......yet ;) Just showing interest in the sport like you asked.

Please see above to my original post, I said that I agreed with Richard and believed Step FBs should go up to 550-600 points, Step BFs should remain at 350. You could then add an additional 100 points to each multiple step trick for every FB in that rotation. (Eg. Step FB 540 currently = 1350, new points add 200 for 2xFB, Step FB 540 now = 1550). Acceptable?

We can't just keep going in circles, back when everyone was doing all these flips the points of turns were increased, (for what reason I'm not exactly sure as I wasn't involved, this was back when I was in my XXS) and now it seems like the same thing's happening again. For the record, I'm not totally against limiting the number of multiple turns to 6 in a run, I would rather see that than the points being decked back.

You said wake 180s probably take 2-4 times as long and are more difficult...so changing the scores for all 4 wake turns to twice as much as all 4 two foot 180s (1800) plus a couple extra hundred points for difficulty, would make all four wake turns 2000 points. That could break down as 450 for a BF, 550 for a FB. I know Pete came out at 2300 for all 4 (450 BF, 700 FB) but I'm just throwing numbers out there. What are anyone's thoughts on the point values here, too high or OK?

Hi AllStart trick tower start.Add the points value back to 150 for the tower but increase the height to 4 meters. Now you have more SPECTATOR APPEAL!l and lots of advertising space on the tower. Plus we can add some spice to new moves off the tower.Back soon.

Lots have said we want to see more summersault because it has spectator appeal which is true.But unfortunately for a skier they mostly do not appeal to them. Training lines steps and multiplies etc is an amazing feet and doing these tricks as a skier that can do them with their ass not touching the water is a greater buss. When done correctly it is ten times better than somersaults.So were I am I going with this.We need to be carefully that we just don’t look at the trick for the spectator but also for the skier.

So let’s just talk somersaults for now.CurrentlyBasic flip=500Wake out= 650Wake to wake =900

Wake to wake point’s value is the same as 4 turns and 4 turns would take a lot longer to learn than one wake to wake flip.Now the Wake to wake needs to be done as your first trick to save cut out time and on a short lake you could loss 2 seconds from your run.A Wake to wake could go to a 1000 points max and to add skier appeal you could add a second wake to wake flip on the opposite side of the boats wake. Because you land on the other side of the wake you can continue to cut out and then come back in of the second flip trick.With the SHF and a 2m shorten rope the wake to wake is slightly easier to be done than 15 years ago. If done wrong it will hurt but way less than a line step FB fall.You could also add a wake in flip as well!

New Values?Wake to wake=1000Wake to wake reverse=1000 (new)Basic flip 500 (but with no downgrades)a flip is a flip, the cleaner you do it the more time you have for other tricks.Wake out =700Wake in=700 (new)These tricks may have high point values but will take longer to do in a trick pass.

I know this is a topic about trick point values etc but why have we not heard anything about the Proposal regarding the World Championships?? I'd rather spend my time on that topic first and then tackle the trick point values. Peter told me he got many signatures for the proposed world format…do I and should I get signatures from people in the states? Richard, what have you heard from the committee??

I think a maximum of 6 multiple turns would be good. This would force skiers to learn and do other tricks. I hate when I hear "footers do the same thing over and over." All sports are like that. A wake boarder does a million flips that look pretty similar to me. Many sports are repetitive so this isn't why I think we should change form 8 to 6 but more for a variety for spectators etc.

Bonus points for trick Categories makes sense but I need to sleep on that idea for a bit.

BF one foot turn needs to go up at least 50, march harder than the one foot back.

Line turns need to go up a bit. Maybe 50-100 points per turn. A front flip is easier to learn and takes less skill than a line back. The learning curve on these is quite brutal.

I think wake turns would be great to have back. Gets the skier moving a bit but like Rob Groen and many others said…very time consuming. These tricks would have to be timed to get a real understanding on what the trick value should be. WIthout knowing how long it took off the top of my head I'd say the BF should be 300 and FB 400.

Its weird thinking about tricks based on time but that's where the sport is at the moment.

Wake flips should go up. Wake, 750 and W to W, 1000

That's what I have for now. Bare with me as I'm on the road for three months and doing a lot of entertaining…you all know what I mean ; )

KSO If you want to have a forum discussion regarding the new format open a new topic for that..

Rob if you want to introduce or change tower start jazz open a topic for that..

I'm sure we would all participate in any topics you guys or anyone else opens..

That's what is so handy about the forum.. Multiple topics all running concurrently but easy to follow since they are separated

Rob, Show me that WW flip that is easier to earn than 4 turns and I will happily subscribe to that line of thought.. Having practised wake flips myself I GUARANTEE you that a WW flip is a bear in the woods compared to turns.. I was never scared of anything short of Superman and WW flips scare the shiznit out of me still..

HI Foots4 turns took me a lot longer to learn. But once I got the flip the wake to wake I got it the first set and used it lots in the late 90s. I dropped it because the down grades were brutal! The trick is easier that invert jumping.So I still would stick with my above email for points value.Plus I was never scared.Robbie.

Ahhhh WONDERFUL Rob.. You illustrate my point to a T.. For some folks turns are easy.. For others they are hard.. For some folks the flips are easy, others find them impossible.. Right now the points advantage those people who can turn and disadvantage the people who are good at other skills but aren't good at turning... So the over-paying of multiples has done a lot of damage because the skiers who weren't good at turns but good at another category became non-competitive last time we made a point adjustment...

We must look at all categories and make it profitable for the people who have other skills.. BUT we don't want to over-pay any trick to promote it..

I havent got the formula for bonus points for multiple categories.. Maybe 3 categories is too low to star paying bonuses.. Maybe we only pay for certain categories, i.e. we wouldn't bonus for hops and waves ???.. I was thinking if this is acceptable that we would do it for each additional category over the entry threshold.. A low bonus but enough to give incentive to expand the number of categories in a trick pass..

I went outside of barefooting and talked to Joel Wing today, nephew of Brett Wing, and one of the best 3 event skiers on the planet.. He thinks barefoot tricking needs serious help..

He suggests we limit multiples like they do in 3 event.. Lower level skiers can do 180's and 360 surface turns but if you do a 540 you cant get credit for a 360, if you do a 720 you cant get credit for a 360 or 540.. After all, if you can do a 720 you have proved you can do 3's and 5's.. They (3 event) have categories of surface turns and you can only do one basic and reverse from any of the categories.

They also limit some of the big gun tricks, which for them are flips to no more than 6 flips in a round.. That's about half of the flips available to choose from..

These restrictions force them to put variety in their runs and allows skiers with differing skill sets to compete against each other..

Thinking about that I suggest we talk about limiting multiples to 5 per round.. That would allow a skier to do all four 7's or all four 540's and use a 540 or 180 as a positional turn between the FF and BB turns..

Then I called Brett Wing..

He said he respected the skills involved in the current pro skiers runs and understands that they do the multiples coz thats where the points are but he thought it was 'repetitive'.. To quote him "Same sh*t over and over".. He said "he admires the skills and has respect for those skiers abilities but for the spectator they are confusing, just seeing the same thing over and over"

We talked about the history and he brought up the fact that in the distant past there were bonuses added for feet to feet jumping and feet to feet turns.. He attributed the skill levels of today to those bonuses.. The bonuses were introduced to induce skeirs to clean up their skiing , strive for perfect techniques and allowed clean skiers to win over rough skiers who may have packed more tricks in or bum jumped further than the feet to feet skiers.. Brett feels they did the job and they were removed when they were no longer necessary ..

Brett feels the introduction of the high pole and shorter trick ropes has made multiples so much easier that they are no longer worth the points awarded.. (remember that the current trick scores were adopted before the tower or SFH were introduced so the scores were developed using the low pole) But he agrees that the points for multiples can't be lowered by any great degree so the points on the other tricks should be raised to induce skiers to include more categories of tricks..

We discussed the bonuses and came up with a plan that if a skier does tricks from only one category they would get no bonus, if they did tricks from 2 categories they would get a bonus, maybe something like 100 points.. If they did 3 categories they would get maybe 200 points but if they included 4 categories they would get 350 bonus points and it they included 5 categories they would get 400 bonus points.. A sliding scale of bonus points as further incentive to add even more variety to the runs..

If the points per second (PPS) and degree of difficulty is leveled out it would indeed be very interesting to see what categories of tricks the top skiers had a natural talent and flair for..

With the high pull from the SFH and the shorter trick ropes most top trickers are using nowadays I doubt we would see a lot of wake tricks.. I do think we would see a lot of wake-to-wake tricks.. Possibly some wrapped WW 360 as first trick... WW flips as first trick.. Hopefully even toe wake tricks..

But the KEY is getting the PPS correct as they relate to degree of difficulty so nothing is overpaid, nothing is underpaid..

Currently no combination could be close to the points attainable by a smooth, fluid set of multiples..

That needs to change..

Are any of you guys trying to figure out the PPS for line turns?? Or wake-to-wake tricks???

I heard a rumor that the WBCSS and Dale Stevens had done some analysis of line turns PPS.. Is anybody going to present the results so we can digest that info??

Personalluy i think the Wings have some great input and like the concepts. Well worth considering. My other comment at this stage is too make sure we look at al levels of skiers. Not just the top minority.

I'm getting really disappointed at the lack of input here guys and gals.. Everyone has been invited to help. A few have commented but not much has really been said to advance this to a finishing point...

Peter Fleck made a list of points.. I published them.. Not a soul has commented that they are close, not close, good, bad or great... I got some suggestions back.. But we need a lot more than one or two people suggesting. We need something more like Peter developed from each of us.. A list of points that will bring up the top tricks to parity for PPS and degree of difficulty..

On facebook I see recent videos of skiers doing line turns.. I see that some have done the 100 turn competitions at WBC doing line turns. I read someplace that the WBC had a think tank on the value of line turns.. We need more input on what those turns should be worth..

This is going to happen.. The points are going to change.. You have opportunity to voice your opinions and make a difference BEFORE the WBCouncil makes changes but you have to get DEEPLY involved NOW..

I started this post on May 21.. Over a month ago.. I have made international phone calls to solicit opinions.. I have talked to people in 3 event tricking to see how they worked through these same problems... I would have expected to not be in the minority soliciting the information we need to make these decisions..

Yes, I know it is the ski season in the Northern Hemisphere and most of you are busy but it is always the ski season someplace..

The time to do something is NOW.. Lets get busy and make some decisions..

Do you agree with Peter's points??

Do you agree with what Rob and Ben G or KSO posted??

If not, why not?

If not, what do you suggest?

What other tricks need to be addressed???

If you think we need to look at lower level tricks as well, WHAT tricks do you think need addressing???

PLEASE don't just point out problems without introducing a viable solution.. Even if it is just a starting point it is a million times better than saying 'we have a problem' or 'we need to look at'.. We already know we have a problem, we already know we need to look at them, we already know a lot.. We just don't know the answers that will fix the problems, yet.. We need solutions.. Written in plain English, with points attached to the problems, and reasons for those points..

EXAMPLE 1.. Tumble Turns and Sit Down-Stand Ups to one-foot are paid too much for how easy they are.. The skier should have to start and finish the trick on one foot to get credit.. The one-foot tumbles should be a separate trick so if they fail the one-foot portion they fail the whole trick..

EXAMPLE 2.. Line turns take too long for the points. They take twice as long as a comparable multiple turn and have an added skill involved. They also take twice as long to learn as surface turns and the crashes are much harder so the degree of difficulty is 2x.. The points should be 550 for line back, 450 for line front, 950 for line FF 360, 1150 for line BB, etc.. That gives 2x the points of surface turns so the PPS is equitable PLUS an additional bonus for the added degree of difficulty..

EXAMPLE 3.. WW flips are HARD.. They are hard to learn and even a good one knocks you out of kilter and you end up heading away from the wake after the trick so you have to take time to ski back to the wake to do anything but another WW trick.. They take a hell of a lot fo time in a run unless you put them first and that just makes them more dangerous coz if you miss it then it quickly turns from your first trick into your last trick.. I think they should be 1050 pts.

EXAMPLE 4.. One-foot BF is harder than the one-foot FB. They should pay 400pts..

EXAMPLE 5.. I think we need to promote wrapped WW FF turns.. Wrapping up takes time and is an additional skill. so a wrapped WW turn should be paid a bonus. WW FF should pay 1800 and wrapped WW FF should pay 2000..

I hear you too Foot. VERY disappointing 'turnout' from the 'troops' within the Barefoot Brigade of what I call the pros or [even] the semi-pros.

Personally, I am unable to contribute too much to this debate as a skier [which is what this debate really needs and I was hoping to have been able to read and chew over] because I ain't one! Simply put, I want to help legislate for what YOU - THE SKIERS want but how can the likes of Foot and myself do that if you THE SKIERS don't respond?

Foot - I have two suggestions to think about....

Why don't we cut this off soon and then go ahead with what we know works i.e. increase the points for all wake turns by (say) 200 points per trick across the board and see what happens?

Let's also restrict multiple surface turns to no more
than 4 one-foot and 4 two-foot multiple surface turns per pass. I suggest this route because as you know I am not an advocate of limiting surface turns however I hear the arguments for doing so and have a certain sympathy for them. My suggestion restricts them in a way that will see more variety of tricks performed in each pass BUT without limiting the number that can actually be scored per round.

Thoughts...?

Keeping it Real. The Europe & Africa Confederation: Often Imitated - Never Duplicated!

Andy, Since no current skiers actually do these tricks I have called old school skiers all around the world.. EVERY one agrees that limiting multiples and rewarding variety is the key.. I have spoken to 3 event trickers, I have spoken to past world champions, I have done my due diligence..

Every one of them knows how hard multiples are and all respect those skiers who have mastered them, but all agree they have become much easier with the high pole, shorter rope and more lenient judging standards.. And they all agree that for anyone not intimate to the sport a run of multiples is confusing and monotonous.. Allowing 4 per pass is not much different than what we have today.. we now limit to 8, you suggest limit to 8.. Nothing will change.. If you want to make our sport look like a paint drying contest to the uniitiated then have 5 finalists do almost the exact same runs of multiples time after time.. And the value of our sport as a marketable item will remain ZERO..

It's not just wake turns we need to nail down.. Flips are also a thing of the past for open skiers.. toe wake turns and wrapped turn tricks are gone.. Line turns aren't worth the time and risk.. There is more to this than a simplistic "add 200 points to wake turns" solution.. We MUST reward variety to achieve any success in reviving the viewablity of our sport...

Hi AllLimit multiple surface turns to 4 per pass is a change as currently we can have skiers doing 6 of more in one pass. Limiting to 4 will mean other tricks will be done. small I know.Do remember that 90% of skiers do not even get to this level and you will not see more than 4 multiples.

Rob G.. Thanks for the input.. I disagree with a few points... But you know that already :) ...

I think you're wrong about 90%.. I'd put that number closer to 99% that will never get to that level... BUT.. The ones that do are the ones setting the example....The ones that do are the ones that showcase the product we want to sell.. AND they are the ones teaching the next generation..

If they are all still depending on multiples then that's what we will see for many, many years to come... How many students were taught a wake turn at any barefoot ski school in the past 5 years??? How many were taught a WW flip??? or a wrapped WW 360??? And how many were and will still be taught a 540 and 720??? It will only happen very slowly, at a glacier like speed without a kick start..

We don't need to change in 2050.. We need to change in 2015...

You're one of the people who constantly tell me we need to make this sport better for spectators.. How many times have you told me that people don't understand what is happening and we need to make it easier to understand what is happening and who is winning?? 1000 times??? 10,000 times??? But when we are faced with actually doing something, making a change with a definate with a real impact we shy away and hide behind 'it's only 10% of the skiers who do this stuff'.. Well guess what... Those very few skiers are the guys that will never be invited to any multi-sport tournaments coz our sport is so frigging boring to watch..

Instant scoring isn't a drop of spit in the ocean compared to the impact of variety and big air tricks.. We all have to face that fact OR we need to resign ourselves to what we have and then all of us can shut the hell up about trying to make this sport spectator/sponsor friendly...

Can anyone guarantee that we will see more variety (fewer multiples) before the year 2050 if we raise points on Flips, Wake and WW tricks??? No you can not.. You can hope, you can forcast, you can wish.. But none of you can guarantee that we will end up with more variety, more spectacular tricks and offering more spectator appeal.. None of you can do that as it stands today..

BUT if we limit multiples just as they do in 3 event (and possibly pay bonuses for added categories or wrapped turns) I GUARANTEE YOU we will see a variety.. CHANGE WILL HAPPEN at a rapid pace..

Get out of your own thoughts and opinions and call 10 people who used to tournament barefoot back when we had a lot of variety in trick runs... Ask them if they have seen the last few world record runs.. Ask them if those runs comprised of multiple after multiple after multiple are exciting..

Rob, I did just that.. I called and emailed people all over the world.. NOT ONE PERSON SAID IT WAS COOL.. They ALL said it was technically difficult, they wished they could ski that well, etc, etc.. but they all agreed that after a few passes it becomes BORING AS HELL... Then ask their spouses.. You will get the SAME ANSWER... Confusing... Monotonous.. Difficult to understand.. BORING TO WATCH... Yes, Andy, I know it is exciting for you.. And you also enjoy watching Cricket so you don't count..

I'm sorry but all of the guys who say they want to change the sport to make it a product that sponsors and spectators would be interested in and that the leaders of the sport are not doing it right but then refuse to consider any changes of substance are just blowing hot air..

How many committees have been appointed by Richard to come up with some substantial changes so we will have a product to sell??? How many people bitch and moan about the lack of spectators and sponsors??? And how many of those people are actually willing to make a personal sacrifice to achieve that goal??? No pain no gain, Rob... Yes, if we limit multiples it will set a very few skiers back a step or two.. But only for a short time.. All of them are quite capable of doing any and every trick.. And in the long run we will move forward.. And if we manage to structure the PPS for tricks correctly we will see higher scores along with that variety.. And skiers with different skills will suddenly become more competitive..

HI Foot.I never realise that my two lines would fire you up so much. Hopefully you don't frighten too many people from commenting!We understand that watching a barefoot events is boring. But getting the scores out fast is a big help for all grades of skiers and will make a difference to the sport.Yes 90% of the skier's that ski, trick under 2000 which is 36 out of 40 skiers at a tournament.Time to present a spread sheet with the new points vs current points.Still thinking and still here.

Nothing fired up or insulting about my reply.. Email and forums SUCK for getting the feeling across..

EVERYONE.. ATTENTION... If my replies seem harsh just imagine us all sitting at the bar having a cold drink and my reply being said with a smile, calmly, in a friendly manner, without a raised voice, etc, etc, etc... If I call you names then you can take it as a nasty-gram. Other wise take it as a conversation where I am expressing my opinions and listening to yours.. And I am allowed to disagree without it being a personal attack on anyone.. So are you..

What you read there is FRUSTRATION in this process.. I get bitched at and called names by people and I get told 100 times a year that the WBC (and I) make decisions without consulting the skiers etc.. SO, I have invited everyone to participate.. It was announced on Facebook, I made phone calls, and I sent out several emails to over a dozen Open Skiers to help.. You see the result.. Abysmal...

And I predict that after the change once again I will be called everything but a white man for pushing for changes without getting the proper input.. My frustration comes from HOW DO I GET ANYTHING, other than complaints, from the Open Skiers???

In my world replying one time does not make a discussion nor does it get us to the end goal.. Rob, you and I are having a discussion.. Back and forth.. Albeit not on the subject at hand but it is a discussion..

Regarding your request for spread sheet.. Go right ahead and do that.. I am waiting with bated breath for ANYONE to do that.. I already posted a bunch of scores.. Look at my posts again.. I posted scores in the second post on this topic...

Now it's yours and everybody else's turn..

In less than a month I am going to shut this down and I will put forward what I have found out.. If all I found out are my own opinions then that is what will be presented..

HI FootDo you thing the reason for not many people replying is because you are a Forum bully. You write in such a way you scare people from posting.I hate to say this but I had too.I will sent you a spread sheet that you and anyone else can fill the new scores in if wished. Remember what every points are given to tricks will not make the sport grow 10 fold. Media and instant result that are posted and knowing what is going on around the round in tournaments etc etc will make this sport grow.This will be my last post on this subject.Robbie

Quit with the bullsh*t emotional namby pamby nonsense Rob. Foot's no bully - he gets things done and thank goodness for him that he does - this sport is where it is because of him. Do I agree with him all the time - hell no and he gets as good as he gives with me.

He and I will see this through to the end and if you wanna contribute then fine but if not then leave it to us (like most people do) and that's just fine too.

Edited by Andy Harris - 31/Aug/2014 at 13:34

Keeping it Real. The Europe & Africa Confederation: Often Imitated - Never Duplicated!

I really wanted the skiers to drive this.. It was an experiment that was tried and failed.. I will now go back to the old method of working with people who actually want to improve the sport, not their own agenda ..

I had no idea that this topic was being discussed and I would bet there are a lot of skiers that have no idea as well. Not sure how to get the word out on it and it might be to late. You did mention that you only want skiers that can do these tricks to comment so that may be limiting the discussion some on this topic.

I am going to go ahead and add my perspective to this discussion even though I am unable to do most of the tricks being discussed. As a fan of the sport as well as a participant I can watch run after run of multiple turns and just be amazed. But I can also understand that the casual fan will get bored with it very quickly. They just do not have the understanding of how difficult it is to learn those tricks. As an example check out the new video that WBCSS has been featured in on Youtube it is an awesome video. If you read through the comments section of the video the trick that gets the most comments is KSO handskiing and doing push ups. While this is a cool trick and it is difficult I know that the FF 3's that he does in the video are way more difficult but no one even makes a comment about them. So we need to ask ourselves why do people want to watch that video? It is because it has variety and it is entertaining to watch. So, we need to make the trick event entertaining to watch. Lets do whatever is necessary to put variety in the trick runs of the Open level skiers. I like the idea of limiting multiple turns but I really like the idea of giving a bonus for variety of tricks and limiting multiple turns together. Wake turns, wake to wake turns, wrapped turns, flips, line steps, toe turns. However many categories we can come up with. I would love to see some pro show up at a tournament and put a super short line on the boat like they have been using for freestyle and just tear it up with wake turns, wake to wakes, and flips. Think of all of the options that are out there for variety. We could even pay a bonus for height above the wake.

I don't blame the top skiers for only working on multiple turns because they pay the best when you factor in the time verses points formula. So lets change that up so they will come up with another formula to maximize points and at the same time someone might want to watch our sport again.

Also, Foot don't feel bad about the skiers not wanting to drive this change. Most of the them will not want it to change. They have been training for years and if we make a change like this many of them will have to go back and re-learn and re-train on tricks they have not been practicing for years. The top ones have hit the peak of the sport and many of them know they have limited years left in the sport at that level so why change what has worked for them. We have a ski school that has an entire training plan for teaching skiers how to build up to doing multiple turns. They will have to re-tool how they approach training skiers as well. So, I beg you to somehow get the WBC to see the light and get something done regarding this change or this sport will continue to be just one of those cool things that people used to watch in the 80's.

** Enhancement I came up with that solves present issues with hesitations and skill progression....

All elements (180's) of turns are eligible for credit when the multiple is done with hesitations. Skier does a 540 FB. Hesitation at 180 then a good BB 360. The skier will receive the points for a 180 FB and a 360 BB. The points will be structured so that there is a distinctive bonus for making the multiple turn for credit.

Example using current points for turns.

Above 540 - with hesitation scores 250 + 550 = 800

New points for a clean 540 FB = 1000

The goal being that the skier not quite up to Multiple standards can do 4 multiples and get some points if not continuous. The clean turner needs to get a substantial bonus for the good turn. Maybe in my example 200 extra is not enough.

This carries through to all categories of tricks.

This will definitely achieve Variety. It is a bit of a radical idea to digest for the purests out there that fear change (I am one of them) However, If you give this some serious thought and not dismiss it immediately it does have some very good outcomes.

More skier friendly on turns

Easier to judge

Forces skill development

RADICALLY changes the look of our product.

Creates industry demand (ski school visits go up)

Flips are back....not everyone does them buy guaranteed there will be flippers out there.

Wake Turns are in

Step Turns...toe turns....all in at an earlier stage.

Points????

Wipe the current table clean and input new values based on the above parameters....I will do the same when I have time.

As far as getting the WBC school on board with the changes I would think this would be the BEST thing to happen for them... Teach a student a FB and BF and they can go home and do one million of them until they have multiples.. But if they want to know how to do another category they have to go back to school and learn the basics of that new stuff... There are very few people who know how to teach a wake or WW trick.. KSO and David are among those people.. Ben and Ash would soon learn if they dont already.. They would all still be the best at any comp... It looks like a win-win to me.. Why wouldnt they embrace this concept???

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