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Hi,I just started to use pedal recently and noticed quite a difference between my DGX640 and grand piano my teacher is using. It's like I have to use pedal more often on grand. With some parts I can keep pedal pressed all the time on DP and when I try to do the same on grand, sound gets blurry/mixed... you know what I mean. Is it because of the shorter decay on DP which is quite often mentioned on this forum ? I am just a begginer, so it's most likely my fault as well. Any idea if moving to slightly better DP (P155, YDP181, CL36, CN33) will help ?Thanx a lot.

Short decay of digital piano sounds is a well-known and, to me, serious problem. Manufacturers design the sounds to have a short decay to hide the problems they have that are associated with short samples. The downside is that the resulting piano can get you in the habit of mashing the pedal too much, which results in very muddy play when you do it on an acoustic. Of course, there is variation in the sustain of acoustics, but they are all well beyond the majority of digitals.

Unfortunately, I do not believe you will get much longer decay with the other pianos you mention. If you want a full-length decay basically your options are software pianos (which is what I use) and very expensive pianos, like the V-piano. Ironically, Casio actually has among the longest DP sustain, despite taking flak for having a short sustain.

In my opinion, your best option is to do what I have done (and which is much cheaper than buying a new piano): get yourself Vintage D or Ivory II, plug your piano into your computer using the usb cable, and enjoy realistic and much upgraded sounds. If you want to upgrade pianos, do so because you want a different action, not because you want different sounds.

The lowest A on my 2007 Roland HP201 takes about 22 seconds to fully die from a ff strike. C1 takes about 15 seconds, middle C about 9. Also, these decays are almost linear. The bass notes' decay are more linear than the midrange, but the midrange still has a long, singing, organ-like sustain, not a cliff.

This piano has the predecessor to Supernatural, it was called "Advanced SA" and was already part sample part synthesis.

My piano blurs if I get sloppy on release the pedal. It'll blur even when going half-tempo while working some passage out and I don't release the pedal.

I don't see what this "short decay" is. Maybe this is something that affects less-sophisticated tone generators from 10 years back and older? Maybe some makers just didn't put the effort into making a complex, believable tone? Or maybe they hold back on it, and give it to only the highest-priced models?

Just sayin', folks. And yeah, sustain was something I actively looked for when I bought mine. I wanted something that sustained better than my friend's Acrosonic, which is the piano I've had the most time on. In actual comparison with Samick-made Knabe "baby" grands in the same store, the Roland had longer sustain at the bass end and about the same at the midrange. I suppose the Roland behaves like what it was modeled after -- 9' concert grands of various makes.

So I measured decay on my DGX640 same way like Stringless: hitting keys really hard and listening with headphones on 3/4 of max. volume.Lowest A 30 seconds, C1 28s and middle C 19s. I don't have grand piano around to compare, but it seems quite long enough. In my opinion there is some additional sound coming from acoustic when using pedal, some kind of resonance.

In my opinion there is some additional sound coming from acoustic when using pedal, some kind of resonance.

You are quite right. The difference is due to a combination of the shorter sustain of DPs and the relative lack of resonance. You'd expect a low note on a decent grand piano to sustain for over a minute.

"....my 2007 Roland HP201"...."This piano has the predecessor to Supernatural, it was called "Advanced SA" and was already part sample part synthesis."

Wrong again. Nothing personal, but you continue to make this claim and you are just plain wrong. There is no relationship between the tone generator in your piano and SA or SA+ or anything related to the older Roland sound engines. Your piano has purely sampled elements, no modelling or synthesis of any kind.

The problem with misinformation is that it gets perpetuated and repeated.

As gvfarns said, you'll need to get the Roland V-Piano or V-Piano Grand if you want acoustic-like long decay (and the resulting mushy sound that goes with careless pedalling) on a DP. Even with the Vs, in their factory presets (except for just one of the 28 piano sounds - 30 on the Grand version - from which you can customize your own), the decay is just as short as on other DPs, as if Roland didn't want to scare off customers used to the 'normal' short DP decay.

I found I had to increase the decay time to +70 or so, and damping time to +30 on the V-Piano to get the same effect as on an acoustic grand - see my old 'V-Piano presets' thread. (You can alter both those settings from -100 to +100). The trouble is that on sampled DPs, the longer the decay, the more obvious the artificiality of the decay (i.e. like a volume control being turned down) when compared to a real piano, which is why manufacturers keep the decay very short. The sound drops rapidly after the initial strike so that the decay that follows starts from a low volume point, which isn't what happens on acoustic pianos (even small uprights), though the actual decay time after that may seem OK when you measure it - and those sampled DPs that allow you to lengthen the decay time still only start from that point. Only modelled DPs (the Roland Vs only, to date) don't have this problem, and they also have a much more realistic range of resonances that contribute to the blurring effect you get if you don't clear the sustain pedal at the right time (as with a change of harmony).

So, to the OP, I suggest that if you're serious about playing piano music (especially classical) and want to learn good pedalling technique, switch to an acoustic. Or if you can't because you have to use headphones for practising at home, go for the V-Piano, like I did. (BTW, the several resonances I mentioned can all be customized to your liking on the Vs too).

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Hmmm...I accept the arguments between DP's and acoustics but not so sure about the end result.

Some music shows pedal points, and if they are observed there may be a difference in sustain and resonance between DP's and acoustics.

But a lot of music does not show pedal points so you just use your ears along with some music theory knowledge about when to apply and release the pedal.

Then in both cases it's best to just use your ears and apply the pedal accordingly. So it doesn't matter a great deal if there is a difference of instruments, except for with those final long cadence chords.

Although perhaps I will admit that you will never get that seismic headache inducing orgasmic thumping resonant vibrating cataclysm on a DP like you do on a grand.

Hmmm...I accept the arguments between DP's and acoustics but not so sure about the end result.

Some music shows pedal points, and if they are observed there may be a difference in sustain and resonance between DP's and acoustics.

But a lot of music does not show pedal points so you just use your ears along with some music theory knowledge about when to apply and release the pedal.

Then in both cases it's best to just use your ears and apply the pedal accordingly. So it doesn't matter a great deal if there is a difference of instruments, except for with those final long cadence chords.

Although perhaps I will admit that you will never get that seismic headache inducing orgasmic thumping resonant vibrating cataclysm on a DP like you do on a grand.

Beethoven asked for the first movement of his Moonlight Sonata to be played 'senza sordino' (without dampers, i.e. with sustain pedal kept down all the way through). This is about the only time when the short decay of sampled DPs comes in useful, as you can actually follow the great deaf man's instructions without the music sounding like an unholy mess.... (because the fortepianos of Beethoven's day had poor sustain).

Otherwise, I do actually indulge quite often in orgasmic thumping resonant vibrating cataclysm (minus the seismic headache) when I play my V-P. It's better than s#* .

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Exactly what I will have to do - be more careful with pedal on my teacher's grand (release it more often). V-piano is way out of my budget and acoustic in apartment... better not, I am beginner and want to stay friend with neighbors :-)

Ha! I was wondering why I could never quite get the sustain marks right when playing my teachers piano vs my own casio. That and the fact it is ON or off and I hold it right at the on off point like a clutch pedal. While my teachers requires a fair bit of movement.

Measuring decay by how long it takes for the note to get to silence is not the best idea. The relevant measure is how quickly it becomes quieter. Of course, we haven't agreed on a standard measure for that (half-life? quarter-life?). However, if you read through dewster's DPBSD thread you will see that in essentially every case he comments on the decay length, and it is almost universally too short in pianos with looped samples. It is not unnaturally short in pianos with unlooped samples like software pianos and (if parameters are set correctly) modeled pianos like the V.

Going back and forth from a digital (basically any digital) to an acoustic, one of the first things you should notice is how much muddier the acoustic is if you pedal the same way as you do in the digital. To suggest otherwise goes against a mountain of experience and analysis by many, many people in this forum. There are very few or no digitals that do not have this trait.

Actually, Roland's SuperNatural is, from what I can tell, largely a design to avoid this problem. The attack is more or less sampled, but instead of being looped and shortened, as other pianos do, the decay is largely synthesized. As a result they don't have to quiet it down to hide the artifacts. That's one of the main advantages Roland has. Whether it actually lasts the way an acoustic does it open to debate. I suspect it quiets down a bit faster in order to hide the artificiality inherent in synthesized tone. Whatever they do, it seems to work pretty well. I don't own one, so I'm not an expert. However, the OP might get away with using one of these modern Rolands if a software piano is not desired.

By the way, Stringless, EssBrace is right about your piano. It's sampled, visibly and audibly looped, and has "rather short decay." There's DPBSD post on it. If you don't find this to be a problem, more power to you--it's not a bad piano by any means--but it doesn't make your decay comparable to that of an acoustic grand.

Hmmm...I accept the arguments between DP's and acoustics but not so sure about the end result.

Some music shows pedal points, and if they are observed there may be a difference in sustain and resonance between DP's and acoustics.

But a lot of music does not show pedal points so you just use your ears along with some music theory knowledge about when to apply and release the pedal.

That's not necessarily enough though... if the piece is slow enough and the decay is fast enough, you lose an awful lot. Give Clair de Lune a whirl on a DGX-500, for instance. Early on in the piece, by the time you get to the end of the measure the left hand notes are long gone when they should still be going fairly strong.

Not sure how bad the DGX-500 is vs. more modern DPs, but the sustain is truly awful (very fast decay) and it's what I'm stuck with for regular use aside from an out-of-tune spinet. At least the poor tuning on the spinet encourages me to not go too heavy on the pedal regardless of the decay.

Decay on acoustics is sooooooo looooooong. Never experienced anything similar an any DP so far. But is that an advantage of disadvantage remains to be seen, because these long decays on e.g. an upright may not be all very consistent over the keyrange and dynamics playing and can be more of annoyance than a gift. Nice for slow passages , but sometimes in the way with fast, or changing tempi. Still , when I play DP for a while and touch an acoustic , first thing that hits me is the long decay, completely diffuse sound radiation (correct English?) and often the shitty keybed. keybed on DP's is often much more consistent than between uprights. Pedaling is also a speciality of acoustics, slightly lifting and lowering the pedal and catching notes in between, while letting others decay and the complex resonance effects you can achieve are something I haven't heard matched in a DP so far. Physical modeling DP's maybe, but these have other slight artificial characteristics that can spoil the fun. All in all current DP's are pretty good and for practicing purpose very consistent , but not the same thing as an acoustic. Having to adjust when switching between AP and DP is therefore completely normal...

That's exactly what I thought my problem was with my Celviano 620. So are you guys saying that the problem of short decay is common with almost all digital pianos? I must say that I got to the point when I wanted to get rid of my DP since in my piano lessons (on acoustic piano) I don't even have to touch the pedal, while my DP simply requires pressing the pedal all the time. Otherwise the sound is just "cut" and the piano sounds so awful. It's just terrible.

Are there perhaps any middle-range pianos which are better? Kawai? Yamaha?

There are lots of factors involving the use of the pedal. Even switching from one acoustic piano to a different one (even same model and brand), the precise use of the pedal can be different. The acoustics of the hall can also be a decisive factor to have in account. As I generally agree with the things said before (decay, resonance, etc), I don't think it's that important that the pedaling sensation is different from one instrument to another. We, pianists, cannot usually carry our instrument with us (there are exceptions, is Zimerman hidden here at this forum and could tell us? ) so we must adapt to every condition, including different actions, tunings, maintenance of the piano, size, hall, etc. This includes the pedal. I don't pedal the same with an U1 upright than with a fabulous Steinway D nor it's the same with my HP-305. And now there exists the HP-505 with have Progressive Damper Pedal (or whatever it's called). The ideal situation, IMHO, is owning an acoustic grand. If you pedal correctly in a grand, you will adapt to every other condition. If not, you can adapt and try to obtain the maximum benefit from your playing on whatever instrument you are using. What I do not recommend is working only with an entry level DP as the lack of decay, resonance, nuances and so on will payoff some day.

Talking about decay and resonance, while still far from the real thing, I think Roland did a nice work with their Supernatural technology.

Exactly what I will have to do - be more careful with pedal on my teacher's grand (release it more often). V-piano is way out of my budget and acoustic in apartment... better not, I am beginner and want to stay friend with neighbors :-)

Have you already asked your neighbours or do you practice late in night? I'm asking since I'm also beginner, playing just for a year, and I do have one upright and one small grand (old) here in apartment and my neighbours let me know straight on the first occasion that I should not play after 18:00 hour. Honestly speaking when I get home later than this and the day was w/o piano playing I'm getting a little bit desperate and go to the digital piano forum to find yet another candidate for purchase, but then well, two pianos already in home so I'm still without DP here... :-)

BTW: back to the topic, both my AP behaves differently on dumper pedal. The small grand is more picky about the pedalling as it gets sooner blurry, but well, you cannot probably compare small upright with small (160cm long) grand, but even this small upright will teach you well what to do with pedal IMHO...

I had a chance to try very nice Yamaha grand(not the biggest one), which is used for concerts at school. I was surprised that damper/string resonance was lower than I experience with my teacher's grand piano, which is about the same size. PHI technology in my CL-36 has damper pedal resonance and even if it's still lower than proper acoustic grand, I like it just the way it is.I kind of realized, that too much resonance is actually a defect and I wanted my CL-36 to behave wrong. It would be nice to hear opinion from acoustic piano engineers.

So I ended my race to achieve blurry sound and I am very happy since then. I enjoy my DP actually more than my teacher's grand and almost as much as (30 000€) Yamaha grand. And I mean both touch and sound (using headphones of course).

I had a chance to try very nice Yamaha grand(not the biggest one), which is used for concerts at school. I was surprised that damper/string resonance was lower than I experience with my teacher's grand piano, which is about the same size. PHI technology in my CL-36 has damper pedal resonance and even if it's still lower than proper acoustic grand, I like it just the way it is.I kind of realized, that too much resonance is actually a defect and I wanted my CL-36 to behave wrong. It would be nice to hear opinion from acoustic piano engineers. So I ended my race to achieve blurry sound and I am very happy since then. I enjoy my DP actually more than my teacher's grand and almost as much as (30 000€) Yamaha grand. And I mean both touch and sound (using headphones of course).

Beware if you want to play on acoustic grands regularly as well as your DP: you can't pedal on the real thing the way you can on your DP, and you can easily get into the habit of not changing the pedal despite frequent harmonic changes, because of the poor sustain and lack of resonances on your DP.

Of course, if your DP is what you want to master (rather than piano playing per se), that's not a problem.

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

I had a chance to try very nice Yamaha grand(not the biggest one), which is used for concerts at school. I was surprised that damper/string resonance was lower than I experience with my teacher's grand piano, which is about the same size. PHI technology in my CL-36 has damper pedal resonance and even if it's still lower than proper acoustic grand, I like it just the way it is.I kind of realized, that too much resonance is actually a defect and I wanted my CL-36 to behave wrong. It would be nice to hear opinion from acoustic piano engineers. So I ended my race to achieve blurry sound and I am very happy since then. I enjoy my DP actually more than my teacher's grand and almost as much as (30 000€) Yamaha grand. And I mean both touch and sound (using headphones of course).

Beware if you want to play on acoustic grands regularly as well as your DP: you can't pedal on the real thing the way you can on your DP, and you can easily get into the habit of not changing the pedal despite frequent harmonic changes, because of the poor sustain and lack of resonances on your DP.

Of course, if your DP is what you want to master (rather than piano playing per se), that's not a problem.

Quite true, and if you go down the road of mostly playing a digital piano, you will never master the use of pedal on a real piano - it will always be messy. Piano resonance can be controlled, but you have to practise on one to know where the threshold is for too much or too little. I tend to think that Jarosujo only prefers the digital because it's easier for him to manage. If you listen to somebody else perform on the two, the acoustic will be a much more satisfying experience - because they have the pedal skills to clean up the sound where necessary, but they have the wonderful resonance at their disposal that the digital doesn't.

I understand what you mean (bennevis & ando). I play grand acoustic for one hour once a week and naturally started to use pedal more often on my DP back at home. I learned the difference so I can predict when to press the pedal on DP (even if I don't have to) so the sound is not too messy when I play same way on acoustic. It works quite well, at least my teacher says so :-)

For those of us who are complete neophytes in this area, how does one go about creating a setup to take advantage of a digital piano library? i.e. what is the hardware and software that is involved?

We should probably have a sticky on this because it comes up very frequently. Basically you use a normal computer or laptop (not a netbook, though) and install the library (Galaxy II and Ivory II are popular around here). Connect your DP to the computer, often through USB if your piano has it, and install your piano drivers if necessary. Plug speakers into your computer. You are set to go.

For those of us who are complete neophytes in this area, how does one go about creating a setup to take advantage of a digital piano library? i.e. what is the hardware and software that is involved?

We should probably have a sticky on this because it comes up very frequently. Basically you use a normal computer or laptop (not a netbook, though) and install the library (Galaxy II and Ivory II are popular around here). Connect your DP to the computer, often through USB if your piano has it, and install your piano drivers if necessary. Plug speakers into your computer. You are set to go.

Thanks.

I also rec'd a more detailed reply re: various more advanced setups, but it was sent privately because it had been posted on many threads previously.

For new-ish folks like me though, we are likely to not see those previous threads, or if we search on "piano software" we get 4000+ results, or if we search on "digital piano library" we get just one result (this thread, interestingly).

So, FWIW, I think there is value in posting the same thing over and over again for the benefit of new eyes that haven't seen those old threads or are not inclined to try to slog through them to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

To a certain degree that is the bread and butter of ABF... repeating the same basic stuff over and over for an endless cavalcade of new eager learners.

That said, I don't know who decides what is worthy of a sticky or not, but I would guess this fairly narrow topic wouldn't make the grade. Possibly it would be added to the "Important Topics on the Adult Beginners Forum" post though? Along with other similar technical topics?

My $.02 worth

_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF