Originally Posted by Shaggy
I'm sorry but I have to agree with the poster on this. I just bought Skyrim and was very annoyed that I was being blackmailed into installing Steam on my computer - if I wanted to play Skyrim. Didn't see anything on the box about having to join steam in order to play skyrim.

Huh. Looking at my box right next to my keyboard and I plainly see in a red box:

REQUIRES INTERNET CONNECTION AND FREE STEAM ACCOUNT TO ACTIVATE

Notice: Product offered is subject to your acceptance of the Steam Subscriber Agreement …etc… If you do not agree with the provisions of the SSA you should return this game unopened to your retailer

It's clearly marked on the box, was announced on every gaming site in existence (including here) and was also used by Bethsoft's last two (at least) games. It's fine if you don't like Steam but if you feel so passionately about it, it's your responsibility to do some minimal research - starting with reading the box.

Sackichop - NO! YOU CAN NOT SUCK MY DICK!

November 15th, 2011, 00:00

Its obvious to me that Steam being used on Skyrim has little to do with registering the game as a legal copy and more to do with forcing people to join Steam. Anyone who doesn't see that is just plain stupid, ignorant or both. And it has nothing to do with liking or not liking steam. I had no opinion of Steam because I never used it before Skyrim. My only opinion now is of the tactics used to get me to join it and I don't like being blackmailed. Unlike the idiot Sackichop and anyone else who was forced to Join but now loves it. Well the world is full of idiots!

The last bethesda game I bought was Oblivion IV, Shivering Isles and Knights of the Nine. No Steam required for any of those. But you know what, this whole thread is getting be be about Steam or no Steam. I frankly don't give a shit about Steam. I did already buy the game and installed it. Disabled all that Steam bullshit so I'll just enjoy the game until I can get rid of that middle man program. (Its probably Spyware too. But how would I know?)

I dislike companies making me ask nicely to install my games. That said, on the PC it's really a non-issue, because if the company or client ever collapses the community will make sure the games still run. It's similar to Windows changing and people making sure games run on new platforms. Maybe some small games would slip through the cracks, but overall it's taken care of.

The real DRM danger is on consoles, where the closed nature of the platform makes that future less optimistic. Honestly Skyrim is almost more DRM'd on Xbox because every patch and access to every DLC will depend on Microsoft allowing you that access.

And then of course there is the likely future of streaming, where we own nothing and have access to nothing when the company says no or goes away. I will never support that.

Shaggy that's really to bad because the whole point of my post was to get in your pants. Oh well you can't win them all. Really who's the idiot.

Your right I bought a game I had to use steam with and instead of acting like an immature 8 year old I though I see what it was all about before passing judgement. Turn out I liked it. Somehow that makes me pathetic.

You on the other hand act as if your some pioneer leading us out of the evil clutches of steam. Yet your using it just as I am. Sure you've disabled a few features as have I but it's still on your computer mocking you. So I gave it a chance and found I liked it and you threw your principles right out the window to play a game. So whose the pathetic one? Way to stand up for what you believe in. Enjoy playing your steam game.

it's not just DRM, theyre using it to track what people play & buy. So what. Gabe and his henchmen now know that Ive played 80 hours of Barbies Underwater Adventure. For my trouble, Ive gotten tons of fully patched games for next to nothing.

being scared of/hating/being offended by steam is so 2005. Get a new cause already, at this point youre one of about ten people who even give a shit anymore.

Originally Posted by Jack
Riddle me this: if the copy protection doesn't stop people from pirating it, what is it good for? Why make an already unattractive option even more terrible by forcing customers to use steam?

That's not a very hard riddle. Some quick answers off the top of my head:

- It removes Day 0 piracy on the PC (100% effectively, as far as I know). That encourages people to buy in the crucial early days when everyone has to have it *now*

- To convince investors you are protecting their money as best you can. Games are a risky proposition - you need to convince potential creditors you have covered as many bases as possible. You might not think it has any effect - does an investment fund agree?

- "Unattractive" is relative. A lot of people are arguing there is evidence this is one of the most successful PC title launches ever. I'm not adding an opinion but it's hard to argue Steam doesb't appear to have cost sales.

- Metrics. Steam allows users to know when, how often and fo how long they played the game, what stage the player reached, what character types were popular etc. This is invaluable information for developers and, again, for creditors to convince them you are on the right track.

Honestly, I could argue a perspective for a developer to riddle "why not use Steam".

All excellent points Dhruin. I'll add that Steamworks makes the game more attractive to me. I can buy a physical copy that comes with a nice quality physical map, and still get all the benefits of the game being added to my Steam account. On top of that, it means we aren't lumbered with some other form of DRM that limits installs or requires constant Internet access to play.

Originally Posted by Badesumofu
All excellent points Dhruin. I'll add that Steamworks makes the game more attractive to me. I can buy a physical copy that comes with a nice quality physical map, and still get all the benefits of the game being added to my Steam account. On top of that, it means we aren't lumbered with some other form of DRM that limits installs or requires constant Internet access to play.

This! I actually liked the fact that you can buy a hard copy at *cheaper* price with all the goodies and STILL get the benefits of STEAM (stats, a digital copy in case I loose the dvd etc). I wish more games do this!

I had couple of issue with steam earlier on but I know how to avoid them now so I am happy to use steam.

I under stand that steam has lots of drawback for some people however it doesn't have any for me personally.

Originally Posted by Dhruin
That's not a very hard riddle. Some quick answers off the top of my head:

- It removes Day 0 piracy on the PC (100% effectively, as far as I know). That encourages people to buy in the crucial early days when everyone has to have it *now*

Skyrim was played by pirates 11/10/11.

Originally Posted by Dhruin
- To convince investors you are protecting their money as best you can. Games are a risky proposition - you need to convince potential creditors you have covered as many bases as possible. You might not think it has any effect - does an investment fund agree?

By that logic all games should have ubisoft connected-all-the-time DRM or be multiplayer games.

Originally Posted by Dhruin
- "Unattractive" is relative. A lot of people are arguing there is evidence this is one of the most successful PC title launches ever. I'm not adding an opinion but it's hard to argue Steam doesb't appear to have cost sales.

That's because of the target audience is teens who doesn't care if they are striking a bad deal. The same people who buy day one dlc and hats in TF2.

Originally Posted by Dhruin
- Metrics. Steam allows users to know when, how often and fo how long they played the game, what stage the player reached, what character types were popular etc. This is invaluable information for developers and, again, for creditors to convince them you are on the right track.

Data mining in other words.

Originally Posted by Dhruin
Honestly, I could argue a perspective for a developer to riddle "why not use Steam".

Hahahaha Owned. No matter how hard they try people will always find a way around the man and around the machine. I support good games that make reputably good companies and not the other way around. People need to wake up and realise they should value their money because it later becomes their vote of support. If companies can get away with giving a halfa** game to the market, whos the sucker then? Overall Skyrim its a great game and will only become more polished with time (modding community yay!)

The only way to run skyrim without steam is to bypass steam all together, and i'm sure talking about such things is against this forums rules, so all ill say is just google it.

Can you provide a link? I'm not sure how pirates would be able to bypass a Steam game before it was released on Steam (which, as far as I understand, provided game-required files to be installed).

By that logic all games should have ubisoft connected-all-the-time DRM or be multiplayer games.

Except that many people will avoid these games altogether because they either have an inconsistent or weak Internet connection. If DRM is too over-powering, it can certainly hurt sales. In fact, this is probably a large reason why Ubisoft appears to be moving away from always-connected DRM (apparently AC: Revelations will not have it).

That's because of the target audience is teens who doesn't care if they are striking a bad deal. The same people who buy day one dlc and hats in TF2.

I would imagine the target audience is more likely 20-40 year old males. Teens have little to no income and usually don't have credit cards. Steam requires these things. Teens are also probably more likely to use consoles considering A. Since teens have little to no income, consoles are a more affordable option for parents come Christmas/birthday time and B. Consoles require little technical understanding to use and keep up to date.

Data mining in other words.

Yes, it provides valuable demographics to the companies that make the games. This is definitely advantageous to those companies, even though you may have reservations about them knowing what you play.

Especially since it makes second hand purchases impossible.

Again, this is something that is advantageous for game companies from a profit stand-point. It kind of sucks for us consumers, yes, but technically you could make second hand moves if you were to sell your Steam account (or buy someone else's) or swap it with someone else. I'm not sure if this is against Steam's EULA or not. In any case, Steam is a much better alternative than some other form's of DRM out there. If given the opportunity, I like to purchase my games DRM free (as was the case with the Witcher 2 on GOG.com), but there are also certain games I like to own on Steam. In the case of an incredibly expansive game like Skyrim, I like Steam because it tracks the amount of time I have played the game, which is a feature I enjoy.

It's probably good practice to only purchase games from Steam that you know you want to keep on your "shelf" and won't want to sell later down the road. I'm quite happy with my Steam collection at the moment, and besides the games I have received for free, I think most of them are games that I will want to regularly visit down the road. Steam provides an easy and up to date way for me to revisit them.

Its common knowledge that steam games are not crackable due to core files being left out until the release date, HOWEVER, steam made the game available for preload the day before which allowed the cracking to take place. You dont need a link to prove that, just open your eyes. Also, while being correct that most teens these days do not have the money for the crazy prices they charge people for games, any computer savvy teen knows ways around this(see point 1)

AFTER the Steam release in Australia, where it was unlocked very very early. Get your facts together, or you'll appear foolish in the eyes of others. Yes, there is day 1 piracy. It's a Steamworks game, once it's in the wild, it'll be cracked instantly. Steam does fully 100% prevent pre-release piracy though. There's never been a way around it. Skyrim was not pirated before its release.

I seriously want to know: Were you anti-steam folks the same people that used to throw fits about cookies in your web browser?

Its common knowledge that steam games are not crackable due to core files being left out until the release date, HOWEVER, steam made the game available for preload the day before which allowed the cracking to take place. You dont need a link to prove that, just open your eyes. Also, while being correct that most teens these days do not have the money for the crazy prices they charge people for games, any computer savvy teen knows ways around this(see point 1)

I realize that pre-loading occurred beforehand, but I would have figured that the pre-loading would have left out the required files (also left off retail discs) until after the unlocking time. That is the entire reason Bethesda opted for Steamworks to begin with, isn't it?

Computer savvy teens that pirate games was not really the point. The poster I was responding to was suggesting that Steam sales for the game were largely successful because the target audience is teens that don't care if they are getting a good deal. My point was that teens are likely not the typical Steam users anyway.