Tavor Exceeds Expectations

When the Tavor entered the US market, Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) hoped to sell 6,000 rifles in the first year. They’ve done that and much more: 15,000 rifles in only the first nine months.

IsraelDefense.com takes a look at the Tavor’s success in the United States and interviews Uri Amit, CEO of IWI, and Shlomi Sabag, deputy CEO and President of the US subsidiary. The article touches on how IWI has expanded its commercial sales and other markets where the Tavor is making an entry.

Dear IWI – please go back to the drawing board and design your gun so that you don’t have to have a LH and RH model or make it modular and user configurable on the fly not a total gun takedown by an armorer in order to swap it to the other hand. DESIGN FAIL.

Steyr and others had this design down pat years ago. New designs by FNH, KelTec, DesertTech, etc. make this gun already obsolete from a usability standpoint.

The only reason this gun is getting any traction is because they’re Actually making them and Actively marketing them. Something most firearms companies, especially American companies fail to do…

And yes, although I am left handed this is not just a lefty rant. If you are right handed and your strong arm gets wounded and you have to switch to weak side you are now getting hot brass in the face. At least with any regular carbine design gun AK, AR, M14, ACR, SCAR, etc. that is not the case and can be easily manipulated by either hand by any user.

Danny Yim

To be fair with the Tavor, the brass deflector does heck of a good job in keeping brass out of the shooter’s face when shooting from the left shoulder. In lighter loads, the case’s may skim your lips, but with hotter rounds, the brass is really thrown out there, away from the face due to the deflector.

If you watch Military Arms Channel’s vid, and skip to 5:40 and watch from there, you can see, even with light loads, shooting from the left hand isn’t too bothersome.

echelon

I’ve watched the vid and shot the gun. I’m unimpressed. Have you had hot cases “skim your lips” and not be too bothersome?

Danny

Fair enough, we are all entitled to our own opinions

seans

I am in no way a fan of the Tavor. But in all honestly its not bad for a pullpup to shoot lefty when it is set up for a righty. I am left handed and I have shot this thing when it is skimming across my face, and I will say this. Its definitely annoying, but if you are actually using this for combat you won’t notice a thing. I am guessing you never have had to shoot a belt fed lefty. First time I used my 48 in combat I didn’t even notice how much I ripped up my sleeves and was bleeding until bout 20 minutes after I was done shooting, and belt feds will leave bruises on your chest and arms for days if you shoot it lefty. If you got to switch shoulders in combat with the Tavor you will never notice brass skimming by your face or even hitting you.

echelon

Like I said I’ve shot the gun. It’s ok. But it’s not this revolutionary thing crafted by the hand of God is all I’m saying. The bull pup design leaves much to be desired overall from a basic engineering standpoint. It has merits as far as overall lengths go but sacrifices usability. Designs that can overcome these deficits are superior I’m nature and IWI could have hit a home run but instead they left it in the park.

On the two way range yes I’m sure that brass in the face will be the least of a guys worries but the larger question is why would you even want them to put up with it?

Plus just from a parts and complexity standpoint you now introduce two different versions of the gun with different parts and require the armorers to have to do more work. It’s just silly.

Its a military design. You get issued one, why would you need to change it on the fly from lefty to righty. If you are complaining that you can’t just pass it around the range, you got to realize that wasn’t the point of the gun. You said it yourself, if you are on the two way range, it won’t matter what the brass is doing as long as it doesn’t cause a malfunction. And you need a lefty bolt, thats about it, and that doesn’t take a armorer to change, the end user can do that.

You want to make it all modular and ability to change on the fly and you start getting the problems the SCAR is facing. Trying to do to much out of one platform. And what usability sacrifices are you talking about?

Again I personally am not a fan of bullpups, to much sacrifice in accuracy for me to like, even with the full size barrel. But the TAVOR is a pretty good design overall, and superior to most others right now.

echelon

This video is 15 minutes long and it shows a full conversion from right to left hand. It’s not rocket science by any means, but when you look at a gun like the P90 or Beretta ARX and you can see how ambidexterity issues are more elegantly addressed in the design then yes something like the Tavor looks very very old and wanting.

Honestly I’m watching the sight and I don’t even pay any attention to it.

Tom

Enjoy the ‘usability’ of your ‘FNH’ (FS 2000?) – You should check how you clear a round from the chamber before teaching us about usability.

KelTech? That’s a matter of functionality and not usability – hit or miss, but I hope you get lucky with yours.

Stayer – Umm… I’m no expert on those but I think time has made some changes to the wikipedia page you’re reading from – From Stayerusa.com: “The STEYR AUG has a fixed locking bolt, with seven locking lugs. An optional bolt is available to convert the STEYR AUG from right hand to left hand ejection”

You are missing my point. Please don’t come at me with any undo hate. I’m happy the gun is selling I just can’t understand the almost sycophantic fervor around it.

I know all about the FS2000. Was it perfect? No. But it was a step in the right direction as far as ambidexterity and usability in a bullpup design.

As far as KelTec is concerned I would say it’s not either a functionality or usability problem it’s an availability problem – hence why I said that the Tavor is probably selling because IWI is Actually producing them in quantities that garner attention. But again, design wise it’s more advanced than the Tavor. And their new RDB designs also look promising.

Again my point about the AUG is that it is an OLD design. It has the same problems as the Tavor. I either have to buy a special version of the gun as a lefty or you have to go through a bunch of rigamarole to switch it over.

I’ve been at a gun range with an AUG and a Tavor and trust me it’s no fun to either have to have 4 guns or limit one person or another’s enjoyment of the gun just because the design is so limiting. At least with an FS2000, RFB, RDB, P90 or upcoming designs like the MDR you’ll still only need one gun.

ToMaZi

I was logged out, apologies:

Stating the design is somehow a design fail seems not to understand the purpose of the gun: Military use.

The Tavor design takes design decisions relating to its intended function: If you lost the use of your main hand the least of your worries is brass skimming your lips, and Military units have Armorers.

IWI are known for listening to their clients: A Weapon Expert acquaintance told me how quickly IWI corrected oversights in the initial design flaws of the MTAR when adapting it to the Special forces community (Which initially hated it). I personally pitched a pistol design to IWI and can state they know very well what is required from them in the Combat environment.

To the best of my knowledge IWI focused so far on making small arms for the IDF and other Military clientele from around the world. It seems IWI were very surprised at the success of the Tavor as a sporting rifle and you can assume with some degree of safety that this will work in favor of the NA Civilian Market: Having a gun company which is eager, willing and able will only benefit everyone.

BTW – I think DT’s MDR is an amazing design solution to the Bullpup ejection issue: assuming it’s a quality system (We’ll see that in years to come) and given the option as a Civilian, I would pick an MDR over a Tavor (I too, am a part of the lefty Elite).

echelon

As I stated, I believe the success of this gun is a testament to IWI and on actually delivering the product and creating good marketing buzz.

I would also venture to guess that this is the first bullpup that a lot of American shooters have been able to shoot. Other designs before it were either imported or made in small numbers or chambered in cartridges that are either uncommon or expensive.

Again you’re missing my point. If you and I are standing at the drawing board and I say “phil, let’s make a bullpup for the military to use as a standard weapon.” “What design characteristics should it have?” I would not say: “Hey let’s make a gun that needs two distinct versions for RH vs. LH. Let’s not have two different bolts and a problematic ejection port. Let’s address those out of the gate.”

But I understand. The Tavor is just a dressed up MTAR. It’s an existing design. All I’m saying is that it is wanting. It’s not special. If the RDB or MDR come out and in good quantities then maybe we’ll have something to talk about when it comes to good forward thinking bull pup design. Heck I wish we could get the Radom MSBS bull pup over here. That thing looks pretty sweet.

echelon

Also, either of us can shoot a “RH AR” or the Stag “LH AR” without any modifications and without either of us getting smacked in the face by brass. The only reason the Stag L models exist is just so lefties have an option of kicking the brass out the left side. And funny thing is those “lefty” guns don’t come with a completely ambi lower so they’re pretty useless! I have no problem with a right ejecting carbine as the brass doesn’t hit me in the face and I do not even notice them flying past my face…

To this again, design-wise, I would say look at the Beretta ARX as the current epitome of forward thinking design. It’s one version of the gun with one set of parts and either of us can very easily, in seconds, not minutes, without tools, configure the gun to be a specific caliber and RH/LH configuration.

guest

Not to be mean or offend you in any way… have you tried shooting right-handed? I am right handed and shooting handguns from the left hand is awkward, but for rifles I find it just as “easy” with little practice as if I was using the right hand on the trigger.
If you have not given this a try then try it out for a while.

echelon

No offense taken. As a lefty I make it a point to shoot everything right and left handed. Most serious training regimens will also force you to shoot weak side as well.

Still doesn’t address my main point that the design leaves much to be desired.

It’s not a shooter issue it’s a tool issue.

As you say you find it awkward to shoot handguns left handed…so I’m sure that if you had to use something designed for a left handed person you would find it annoying. And you would appreciate designs that were forward thinking and allowed you to effectively and naturally use it with your right hand no?

I don’t expect anything to cater time as a lefty but at the same time I can praise designs that are more forward thinking and call out ones that aren’t.

I personally like to run an ACR or SCAR over an AR and an AK is actually fairly lefty friendly…doesn’t mean I don’t like ARs. But at least I can either get an ambi lower for that design or shoot it effectively even without modification. With a Tavor I need a whole different gun or a complete parts switch! To me that’s a step back not a step forward…that’s all I’m saying.

I’ve always practiced shooting left and right handed. I had an actual need to do so in my line of work at the time. When you clear buildings it’s a must have skill you need to practice frequently. That goes for handguns and carbines,rifles. I still practice it more for enjoyment now though.
I’ve actually gotten to the point that shooting a handgun left or right handed doesn’t really matter which.

echelon

Well, go clear some buildings for practice with your Tavor. Tell me what your experience with it is. I’m not being jerkish here, I’m actually wanting to know what you think. Do it timed and under duress.

Well that sounded a bit —off. No I don’t practice room clearing anymore. I retired from Police work after right at 30 years. Many years were on our PD’s SRU team. I never timed myself when I was under stress actually clearing buildings.We were a bit busy for that.
I used an H&K MP5 SD at that time but I have a good idea from experience how the Tavor would perform in that environment. Another good weapon for that work would be one I used in the shoot house at Gunsite. That would be the AAC 9 inch suppressed 300 blackout.

echelon

I apologize if that comment was worded badly. Rereading it now I realize that I didn’t make my full point. What I was trying to communicate to you is that as a whole everyone is just saying to me, well just shoot it left handed and hold it so the brass just skims your lips, it’s no big deal. Ok…

Well what I was asking you was that if you had access to a shoot house to take your Tavor and run it through as you would a live scenario and do it in such a way that you would have to switch to your support hand side and then use it that way. If it is timed or under simulated duress I wanted to see if you were more likely to get hit with the brass or not and whether or not it affected your performance. I would just be curious.

Just saying you have a “good idea how it would perform” is not the same actually doing it. Kind of a “walk a mile in my shoes” kind of thing…

I imagine about 99% of the planet would disagree with you. I sure do. By the way having had one from the time they were released I don’t have a problem shooting left handed. It doesn’t toss brass in my face or even close really.
I don’t have a problem taking it down,changing to 9mm etc. It’s really no big deal.

echelon

I’m glad that you like it. And I’m also glad it doesn’t smack you in the face with cases. You can move your face back as seen in videos and yes you can keep the brass in front of your face. But you will take a more comfortable cheek weld when you switch back to your string side because it’s natural.

99% of the world can love it and think it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread. I’d still say the design is wanting. And other extant designs confirm this. If it kicked the brass downward or forward or tried to kick the brass out at an angle it would be a much more superior design. Or could you imagine if they had a simple system like the Beretta ARX that allowed the shooter to easily switch which direction the cases ejected? Then you’d have one gun, one set of parts, and simplified configuration.

Einstein said that anyone can make something more complex but it takes real smarts to make something more simple.

I wouldn’t mind seeing them have an easily changed ejection port. I’m just not convinced it’s a problem that needs addressing.
I actually disliked bullpups prior to the Tavor. I was anything but enthused when I first got my hands on one at SHOT. Then I shot it and spent some time moving with it etc. and I was a convert then and there. If I’m heading to the range most of the time I grab the Tavor.

echelon

Yes and I’m on the opposite side of your coin Phil. I’ve disliked Bullpups from the get go simply because I can’t shoot most of them from my “strong side”. So when I shoot a P90 or an RFB or an FS2000 and it is ONE gun that needs no special parts or conversions for me to fire or for you to fire or for anyone to fire then that is an evolution in the design for the better. The Tavor is not a step forward in any way, shape or form. It is just a good example of an existing AUG type design. You can make an AK, SKS, M1A or Ruger 10/22 in a Bullpup chassis and other than size, weight and cartridge they all perform about the same as this Tavor does.

Agreed. 🙂 Hopefully in the future there will be even better bullpups out there than the Tavor that retain what it does well ergonomically and otherwise but with the added benefit of less complexity and ambidexterity!

jlstan

I think you’ve proven the “almost sycophantic” love for the thing for sure. Didn’t seem that bad, but apparently folks get defensive.

echelon

Yep. It’s almost to the point of 1911 vs. Glock or AR vs. AK! Death to Direct Impingement! Viva la piston!!!

You realize Piston isn’t really that great advantage over DI. Only reason they got big was HK started the craze with the HK416, and that guns whole purpose was full auto sbr suppressed 5.56

echelon

I’m not debating this here. I was merely making a joking reference to the nature of a design argument against the bullpup and in this case the Tavor in general…

n0truscotsman

The Tavor can be fired from your support side without brass getting in your face. Its not as ideal as a conventional layout rifle, although that is a inherent disadvantage to the bullpup platform unless you do what FN did with the 2000 and design a remedy with a whole new approach (and inevitable increased complexity).

Probably the reason the Tavor sold so heavily is it filled a niche that was unfulfilled by other bullpup designs sold in the states: a lightweight, ergonomic, and reliable bullpup with superior modularity. As a Tavor owner that has fired a myriad of other bullpups, its popularity is well deserved.

Nevertheless, I can agree with you though. That is why then the shit hits the fan, Ill be grabbing a AK or AR.

echelon

I already stated as much yes. Most bullpups in the US are either rare in number, expensive, take proprietary magazines and/or calibers.

The FS2000, P90 an RFB are all examples of bullpup design evolution that indicate that it is moving in the right direction. Also seeing the RDB, MDR and MSBS bullpup give me hope for the future.

All that said I’m with you. I’ll stick to a conventional style gun. If it wasn’t for asinine NFA “laws” I doubt anyone would give two craps about a bullpup. We’d all have Krinkovs and 10″ ARs…

Quite a discussion we have here, don’t we. I recall that Tavor came about same year as F2000. Former one sells while the later does not and it spite of being higher on the curve. Reasons? Eh, who cares. Any so-so effort in bull-pup format is admirable; it is hard to do solution to begin with.

echelon

Be careful you’re on a slippery slope…the Tavor zealots will burn you at the stake if you do not praise the almighty bullpup to rule them all! LOL

By the way the photo at the top is me at SHOT being converted to a Tavor fanatic:-)

Sulaco

What kind of optic is that on the rifle? Looks backwards….

Formynder

Meprolight. And it’s not backwards.

nester7929

Because the F2000 has an awful trigger, and it’s so bulky in the rear that it’s difficult to shoulder.

dp

I am not entirely sure it is necessary to clarify term “higher on the curve” and I do not feel offending anyone by saying so. While F2000 did some considerable progress in form of ‘discrete’ ejection it would be even better it any future ‘pup ejected BEHIND magazine. Is it doable? What do you think?

echelon

P90 does this and the upcoming KelTec RDB does as well. Seems like that or the frontal ejection is the way to go on a bullpup. But apparently when one starts talking about superior designs it tends to raise peoples’ hackles…

I mean people still buy single shot muzzleloaders and that’s cool and all, but that does not mean that the newest one out is the Bees Knees…

It didn’t raise my hackles at all. If you read some of my comments to others when we get into a discussion about a gun being good, bad etc I come down on the side of each person having their own preferences, likes and dislikes. It doesn’t mean one is right or wrong just a different viewpoint. It’s not that big a deal.

echelon

To be fair I didn’t say you raised your hackles. I’m strictly talking about design here. Not if the trigger is good or if it shoots nice or if it’s reliable. It may have all of those qualities and yet still be an inferior design to something else. I will stand by my initial “design fail” statement as I believe it is accurate in the 21st century to say so based on evidence of other extant bullpup designs, their individual shortcomings or lack of popularity notwithstanding.

When people purchase a firearm they want to have emotional reinforcement that they made the “right” choice. Thus if anyone points out any kind of criticism whatsoever at their personal choice of firearm they become highly offended.

I believe you have understood the nature of my comments and we’ve traded jabs in good humor. Please don’t feel like any of my comments are directed to you specifically unless it’s explicit.

I’ve voiced my opinion about the Tavor in various other venues and I almost always get shouted down as a heretic, so it’s ok! LOL

mig1nc

In fact, if you go back in time, the Steyr ACR prototype was also downward ejecting. Looking into the future, I think we’ll eventually see a bullpup that fires a CT round and ejects downward again.

st4

I blame the fact that Michael Ironside is no longer voicing Sam Fisher, thus the F2000 automatically we all knew from Splinter Cell lost a ton of coolness points. 😉

Suburban

URL funkiness in the related articles section of the page. Torch browser.

Not quite. Tavors are fully unrestricted there! They’re as popular there as the AR is here!

Ken

I’ve heard that Canada has wacky laws where some popular evil looking guns are banned, but not the obscure ones. Here in MD, all AK rifles are banned, but AK shotguns and pistols are not. I’ve heard that Vz.58’s are legal in Canada. Same deal in MD. M14’s, FAL’s, and G3’s are banned, but AR-10’s and SCAR-H’s are not.

All semi auto rifles must have an OAL over 29″, but the law says nothing about it being permanent. You could technically tape a Twizzler to a Tavor and it would be legal. Semi auto rifles cannot have more than one of the following: flash hider, folding stock (does not include telescoping), or rifle grenade launcher.

At least you guys get to have the cheap Chinese and Russian guns. I would love a cheap SVT-40, which has not been allowed to be imported to the US in a while.

Stop offending the viktims of APARTHEID
Arabs ethnicali clensed the whol Middle East from Jews
and now they do it to Chistians, and you are acuseing Israel,
the only place there where arabs
have human rights at all?
Schame on you!

Thanks and as I’ve said we love to run into readers at SHOT! Glad you enjoyed lunch:-)

Ebola

I have owned a tavor for over three years. It will be the one firearm I never part with. Im just happy other people can experience my joy.

Michael

There is another battle proven Bulpup, the SA80. How about a civilian version, at least on in .22lr

suchumski

do you know the history of the SA 80, it was one disaster after the other.
the system was not designed for the 223 and worked well with the Brit.
cartrige. when they decide to adopt 223 and changed the system
the gun just was jaming after some shot.
in the 1. iraq war som desperate britisch started to fire in fusillades like in the 1800’s.
the brits brought a lot of gundesigner to rework the SA 80. even after HK solved the most problems and upgraded the gun so it seems to work, the britisch soldier
is not lucky with it. battle proven, realy. 😉

RickH

The problem from what I’ve read about with the SA80 (or L85 as it were) was not with the change of caliber, but rather the horrible quality control in manufacturing shortly after being adopted.

Now just start making some classic models! I want my Uzi without rails…and in carbine flavor with a folding stock (and a dummy barrel) please! I did grow up in the 1980s after all!

Hank Seiter

I have a Tavor. It’s an outstanding bullpup. It’s recoil impulse is almost as low as a SCAR 16. It’s a little on the heavy side given its mostly polymer construction, but in my view that’s a plus in further taming what little recoil the 5.56 produces. For you AR lovers (and I’m still one of them), the Tavor’s recoil impulse is about that of a 9 pound AR-15.

As to the trigger, my Tavor’s trigger is very acceptable 7 to 8 pounds and breaks very clean for a bullpup trigger. It’s very easy to remove the trigger module and I found the more I used the trigger (I’ve put over 700 rounds through my Tavor in relatively light use) the better it kept getting. Yeah, it’s a little heavy and vague out of the box but once used the trigger “settled in”. There is a return spring that IWI installed to assure trigger reset under adverse conditions. You can find youtube videos and blogsites that talk of removing that spring to lighten up the trigger and it does work. There are other springs in play in the trigger module which helps reset the trigger but I didn’t feel it wise to compromise overall reliability under less than ideal conditions so I very lightly “stretched” the spring little by little until it barely slipped over the sear leg so it continues to exert pressure on the sear when the trigger is pulled to aid its reset to a pre-fire condition.

I know Timney (and I have Timneys on my AR-10s, a few AR-15s for match work, and on a SCAR 17 and they are righteously light and clean without running the risk of accidental “bump firing”) has developed a very nice 4.5 pound trigger to drop into the Tavor and I seriously thought about getting one when I first bought my Tavor a couple of months ago, but the stock Tavor trigger has responded very positively to use to the point where I can double-tap rounds onto a center-of-mass target out to 50 meters with relative ease!

BTW, I use an old school EoTech, the larger one that uses double-A batteries. It gives the Tavor a very nice look and functionality. I also love how the Tavor strips for maintenance and it’s gas piston design which keeps all the reciprocating parts very clean even after many hundreds of rounds. I’d love to do a 2000 round “torture test” but I can’t bring myself to leave the Tavor dirty over a several week period.

Grits.N.Jowls

I’d like to see one that uses AK-mags in 7.62×39, I would buy it.

supergun

From reading the below comments, I would say that we have a new breed of gun owner lovers. With this enthusiasm America can be a fun place to live.

ndjinn9

Wow. I have serial number 0002500.

Dustin Shadle

id say get them built here completely, so they can guarantee they wont get locked out of the market over some stupid political import issue. they could also stand to drop prices slightly on basic rifles, 1700 is steep when an AR is 600-1000, and more familiar. get it close to 1200 and ill have 4 in a year, one in 18 inch, one in 16 inch, and 2 set up just with he pistol caliber carbine kits. theyre fantastic platforms, and AUG could learn a lot by doing a pistol cal carbine conversion in their next rendition of the AUG