This is an impressive record against those guys considering the stage of Federer's career. Hopefully he makes it 3-2 against Novak tomorrow. Before Fed retires I want to see him and Nadal battle on some of the faster hard court surfaces and Wimbledon again, I feel like Fed can avenge some losses.

So Fed is 6-5 this year against the other top 4 members. But notably 0-2 on clay.

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Well it's hardly noteworthy he's 0-2 on clay. He's only beat Nadal twice in 14 attempts even in his prime, and you'd have to give him the edge against Murray. So he's 0-2 against Djokovic. Hardly shocking.

You are right. I think when I looked it up it was before Djokovic also did it.
Can't say one way or another about RG that year, though. It is Nadal's playground. It does say something for Federer, though, that he did manage to beat Djokovic and end the streak.

.500 isnt bad, but Serena Williams was something like 8-0 vs the so called (lol) top 2 women in the World. She truly is one a kind. No women or man in history has been that dominant over her main competition at that age.

.500 isnt bad, but Serena Williams was something like 8-0 vs the so called (lol) top 2 women in the World. She truly is one a kind. No women or man in history has been that dominant over her main competition at that age.

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Her competition is much weaker though. Federer is up against 2 all time greats in their own right (I expect Djokovic to bag around 9 majors or so) and an extremely talented player in Andy Murray (who honestly probably should have the career of someone like Boris Becker, just unlucky that he is playing against such monsters).

Her competition is much weaker though. Federer is up against 2 all time greats in their own right (I expect Djokovic to bag around 9 majors or so) and an extremely talented player in Andy Murray (who honestly probably should have the career of someone like Boris Becker, just unlucky that he is playing against such monsters).

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Although I cant stand her Sharapova will probably end up with about 7 majors and be regarded as an all time great, on par or above Venus and Henin due to her career Slam. Azarenka will probably end up with 5 or 6 and be regarded a borderline all time great atleast. Not neccessarily far behind Djokovic's eventual standing in the mens games, and likely well above Murray's when all are said and done.

Even evaluating all as currently are Sharapova has won 4 majors and has the Career Slam, Djokovic has won 5 and doesnt have the Career Slam. Azarenka is a slam winner and year end #1, and was within a whisker of her 2nd slam in the same year. Murray is a slam winner who has never reached #1. I dont see the edge, unless you consider Nadal who apart from the early slow hard court season was an irrelevance to Federer this year (they didnt play on clay, then Nadal was AWOL the remainder). Anyway if you believe most of this forum Nadal is washed up off of clay (possibly true when he hasnt won a non clay title since 2010 now) and Federer is probably washed up on clay, so they barely co exist anymore.

Sharapova is such a hot and cold player. She has no middle game, if she on she's great, if not she's average. Basically she probably wouldn't have the same amount of slams if there was anyone good around. Serena can't win every slam, but she is the only truly world class player out there. It's like if Nadal was the only world class player (Fed, retired in 2007 and Djokovic and Murray don't exist) Nadal still wouldn't have won everything. Someone else would have won AO 2010 and 2011, RG 2009, Wimbledon 2012, US Oen 2009 for instance. Maybe Soderling or Berdych or Tsonga would have a few slams. Wouldn't make them any better as players.

Serena is now dealing with players who offer her as much competition as people like Tsonga offer Federer. At one time she had henin, Venus, Clijsters really giving her a hard time, but now no-one has the game or guts to stand with her.

Again not a Sharapova fan but lets not delude yourself into thinking she only won slams since someone had to. She denied a peak Justine Henin (who this forum seems to think is some god) 2 slams at the 2006 U.S Open and 2008 Australian Open. She arguably played a large role in ruining Henin's career and legacy to an extent as it left Henin with the stigma of a 1-3 slam finals year at her peak, and with only 1 year as the clear and undisputed #1 (2007, as 2003, 2004, and 2006 all now have question marks, whereas 2006 would be clear had she won that U.S Open final over Sharapova), while the 2008 Australian Open beatdown was part of the start of her loss of confidence, poor string of early 2008 results and subsequent retirement. Meanwhile for all the years of humiliation now at the hand of Serena beatdowns, she even denied Serena the 2004 Wimbledon title and 2004 WTA Championship title. The only major title you can maybe say she won since someone had to was the 2012 French, but then again she could have just not won it and allowed another Schiavone or Na to, but she didnt and instead won a slam on her worst surface (never easy for a non GOAT caliber player regardless your competition) to complete her Career Slam. So as much as I cant stand Sharapova one must give credit where credit is due. She is clearly much more than some random default Champion.

One would have to dispute your notion Serena is the only World class player out there. Sharapova won 3 of her current 4 games from 2004-2008 when Venus, Henin, Serena, Mauresmo, Davenport, Clijsters were all mostly at a given time around and going strong. She proved herself a World class player a long time ago. Azarenka as well is a World class player, if the field she is ranked #1 (and yes I know Serena is hands down the real #1 and isnt ranked there since she doesnt play enough to cater to the WTA ranking system but that is aside the point of Azarenka being a worthy World class contender) over lacks depth it isnt her fault. The mens is the same as the womens now anyway, 3 or 4 really strong, and nothing after that, no difference.

Although I cant stand her Sharapova will probably end up with about 7 majors and be regarded as an all time great, on par or above Venus and Henin due to her career Slam. Azarenka will probably end up with 5 or 6 and be regarded a borderline all time great atleast. Not neccessarily far behind Djokovic's eventual standing in the mens games, and likely well above Murray's when all are said and done.

Even evaluating all as currently are Sharapova has won 4 majors and has the Career Slam, Djokovic has won 5 and doesnt have the Career Slam. Azarenka is a slam winner and year end #1, and was within a whisker of her 2nd slam in the same year. Murray is a slam winner who has never reached #1. I dont see the edge, unless you consider Nadal who apart from the early slow hard court season was an irrelevance to Federer this year (they didnt play on clay, then Nadal was AWOL the remainder). Anyway if you believe most of this forum Nadal is washed up off of clay (possibly true when he hasnt won a non clay title since 2010 now) and Federer is probably washed up on clay, so they barely co exist anymore.

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Djokovic is a much greater player than Sharapova ever will be(and I like Maria and dislike Cvac). He's had much more consistency over the last 5 years and has been no one's pigeon. He'll end up with more majors and more titles overall, as well as going deep in basically every event he's played in for the last 5 years as well as total domination last year. Compare their career prize money so far for a comparison of their overall career (fair because they are the same age, so inflation isn't a factor), Djokovic has much more frequently been a factor at the latter end of tournaments for years now.

Murray again has been a much bigger factor for the past 4 years than Azarenka and his problems were to do with the players in front of him rather than just having a weak game like Azarenka.

And we haven't even mentioned Nadal yet, who IMO is probably a better champion than Serena herself (not to invoke TMF, but Tennis Channel agrees, having Serena at #14 all time and Nadal at #6).
I know you are a big fan of the WTA and Serena in particular it seems, but there is a big difference in level and ability between the top of the WTA and ATP right now.

Like I said Nadal and Federer practically dont co exist anymore. Nadal seems washed up outside of clay, not even having a tournament on a non clay event since 2010 now (soon to be 3 years). Federer was never a threat to Nadal on clay, and is even less of one now. This year they played twice early on the year on slow hard courts, each winning one, never again after March, and Nadal did not play any tennis after June, so he can barely even really be counted as Federer's competition this year. Either way overall Serena 2012 >>>>>>> Nadal 2012 (even ignoring the fact Serena produced that at 31), and Djokovic, Murray, Azarenka, Sharapova, Federer in 2012 all > Nadal in 2012 as well. Sharapova and Azarenka are who Serena predominantly faced, Djokovic and Murray who Federer predominantly faced, and at this point Sharapova is on a level with Djokovic, and Azarenka on one with Murray, if you are comparing their careers and places amongst their gender in history.

If Sharapova ends up with 7 or 8 slams (probably a good guess) and Djokovic ends up with 8 or 9 (probably a good guess) their places in history per their genders will be about the same, especialy if Djokovic never gets the Career Slam which Maria managed. Azarenka probably has an even better chance to win 4 slams or more than Murray does.

Serena btw was ranked #14 before her last 2 slam wins, Olympic Gold, and WTA Championship, all at 31. Looking at the list of names I would already be certain she is atleast risen to #10 now if they redid the list. Serena's career is likely only going to keep getting better and Nadal's has probably already virtually ended. It is likely Serena will not be behind Nadal on any list in a year or twos times, and I am just as big or bigger a Nadal fan as I am a Serena fan but that is reality. Also regardless of the Tennis Channel list many by the U.S Open were starting to talk about Serena as the best female player in history, something that nobody says or ever will say about Nadal when it comes to the men.

Like I said Nadal and Federer practically dont co exist anymore. Nadal seems washed up outside of clay, not even having a tournament on a non clay event since 2010 now (soon to be 3 years). Federer was never a threat to Nadal on clay, and is even less of one now. This year they played twice early on the year on slow hard courts, each winning one, never again after March, and Nadal did not play any tennis after June, so he can barely even really be counted as Federer's competition this year. Either way overall Serena 2012 >>>>>>> Nadal 2012 (even ignoring the fact Serena produced that at 31), and Djokovic, Murray, Azarenka, Sharapova, Federer in 2012 all > Nadal in 2012 as well. Sharapova and Azarenka are who Serena predominantly faced, Djokovic and Murray who Federer predominantly faced, and at this point Sharapova is on a level with Djokovic, and Azarenka on one with Murray, if you are comparing their careers and places amongst their gender in history.

If Sharapova ends up with 7 or 8 slams (probably a good guess) and Djokovic ends up with 8 or 9 (probably a good guess) their places in history per their genders will be about the same, especialy if Djokovic never gets the Career Slam which Maria managed. Azarenka probably has an even better chance to win 4 slams or more than Murray does.

Serena btw was ranked #14 before her last 2 slam wins, Olympic Gold, and WTA Championship, all at 31. Looking at the list of names I would already be certain she is atleast risen to #10 now if they redid the list. Serena's career is likely only going to keep getting better and Nadal's has probably already virtually ended. It is likely Serena will not be behind Nadal on any list in a year or twos times, and I am just as big or bigger a Nadal fan as I am a Serena fan but that is reality. Also regardless of the Tennis Channel list many by the U.S Open were starting to talk about Serena as the best female player in history, something that nobody says or ever will say about Nadal when it comes to the men.

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How in God's name is Sharapova on the same level as Djokovic? Djokovic has more titles and more majors, won against much better competition as well. Djokovic has DOUBLE the career prize money of Sharapova, DOUBLE. Even if some ATP tournaments pay a bit more than WTA tournaments, it shows that he's been infinitely more consistent than Sharapova and has been stopped by Federer and Nadal many times at the USO and RG before his breakthrough in 2011.

Unlike Serena, who basically plays as a part time player and couldn't really dominate over a long period, Federer and Nadal have true professionals for many years and that's why it took a truly superhuman effort for Djokovic to break through in 2011 and beat them. Inferior players couldn't sneak by and win majors (like Kuznetzova and Ivanovic on the WTA) in the Fedal era. I have huge (grudging)respect for Cvac in achieving what he did among such legends. It's a huge insult to Djokovic to say Sharapova is on the same level as him.

Like I said Sharapova has 4 slams and the Career Slam. Djokovic has 5 slams and no Career Slam. Unless you dispute the worth of a Career Slam, that is approximately equal. Many would take 4 slams and a Career Slam over 5 and no Career Slam in fact. Now there are other factors to consider of course. However one cant say Sharapova wasnt consistent for many years too. From 2004 to 2008 in slams:

So Sharapova herself was extremely consistent for many many years, in addition to producing big wins she was constantly a factor. The WTA from 2004-2008 was extremely strong, unlike today btw, and Sharapova still won 3 majors, a YEC, and contended to win and made it deep in almost every slam she played even against that field. A myth some people seem to have is this is Sharapova's best ever tennis we see before us now, and it is barely enough to win the very odd slam vs a really weak field. Neither is the case, Maria in fact was a much better tennis player before all her shoulder problems in 2008 (started in early 2007 in fact), and was winning big and always right at the top even when womens tennis was at its height with Serena, Henin, Venus, Davenport, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Sharapova herself, and others all going strong. That (the field of 2004-2008 I am referring to) is overall a much stronger field than the mens field today which is a strong 3 or 4 and nothing after that, and Sharapova had most of her career greatness and almost all her major titles vs that formidable 2004-2008 field. Lets also remember we have an old Federer and a clearly fading Nadal who was partly inactive this year, and still an until recently slamless Murray making up that so called dream group that people are trying to hype up as such a historic top 4. The one big thing Djokovic has over Sharapova is his 2011 year. Sharapova never had a year anything like that.

It's simply impossible to compare WTA to ATP. The level of competition is not even remotely the same. To me, Sharapova is a ball basher. Djokovic is a definitely more complete player. Then again, there aren't that many WTA players that could be labeled that way.

Again not a Sharapova fan but lets not delude yourself into thinking she only won slams since someone had to. She denied a peak Justine Henin (who this forum seems to think is some god) 2 slams at the 2006 U.S Open and 2008 Australian Open. She arguably played a large role in ruining Henin's career and legacy to an extent as it left Henin with the stigma of a 1-3 slam finals year at her peak, and with only 1 year as the clear and undisputed #1 (2007, as 2003, 2004, and 2006 all now have question marks, whereas 2006 would be clear had she won that U.S Open final over Sharapova), while the 2008 Australian Open beatdown was part of the start of her loss of confidence, poor string of early 2008 results and subsequent retirement. Meanwhile for all the years of humiliation now at the hand of Serena beatdowns, she even denied Serena the 2004 Wimbledon title and 2004 WTA Championship title. The only major title you can maybe say she won since someone had to was the 2012 French, but then again she could have just not won it and allowed another Schiavone or Na to, but she didnt and instead won a slam on her worst surface (never easy for a non GOAT caliber player regardless your competition) to complete her Career Slam. So as much as I cant stand Sharapova one must give credit where credit is due. She is clearly much more than some random default Champion.

One would have to dispute your notion Serena is the only World class player out there. Sharapova won 3 of her current 4 games from 2004-2008 when Venus, Henin, Serena, Mauresmo, Davenport, Clijsters were all mostly at a given time around and going strong. She proved herself a World class player a long time ago. Azarenka as well is a World class player, if the field she is ranked #1 (and yes I know Serena is hands down the real #1 and isnt ranked there since she doesnt play enough to cater to the WTA ranking system but that is aside the point of Azarenka being a worthy World class contender) over lacks depth it isnt her fault. The mens is the same as the womens now anyway, 3 or 4 really strong, and nothing after that, no difference.

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No I'm not saying Sharapova won slams because no one else was there, but I am saying she is wildly inconsistant. She has won 4 slams in 8 years, and is perhaps a bit fortunate to have one of each which gives her a slightly higher standing than if she just had 4. She was a good enough player to be a threat to the other to players but only on her best form was she able to win slams, and that form very rarely occured. Now she is even less likely to pose any threat and it perhaps makes sense she won a slam where where Serena and other players suck, because she'd probably never get past them on a surface thay play well on.

But from now on, I think her winning more slams as a regular occurance is out of the question unless there is no one to really give her a match.

As for people like Azerenka, good player, but not in the same league as Serena, Venus, Henin, Clijsters and a prime Sharapova (a few others too) especially mentally, and not really better than a Tsonga or Soderling from the men's game, it's just easier to be number one in the women's game the way it is and the way Serena hardly lays sometimes. But Henin and Venus could stand up to serena mentally, the newer players are like Ivanovic and Jankovic, they don't quite have the guts. You saw that in the US Open final where Azerenka almost won despite being well below serena in winners, but choked serving for the title.

Like I said Nadal and Federer practically dont co exist anymore. Nadal seems washed up outside of clay, not even having a tournament on a non clay event since 2010 now (soon to be 3 years). Federer was never a threat to Nadal on clay, and is even less of one now. This year they played twice early on the year on slow hard courts, each winning one, never again after March, and Nadal did not play any tennis after June, so he can barely even really be counted as Federer's competition this year. Either way overall Serena 2012 >>>>>>> Nadal 2012 (even ignoring the fact Serena produced that at 31), and Djokovic, Murray, Azarenka, Sharapova, Federer in 2012 all > Nadal in 2012 as well. Sharapova and Azarenka are who Serena predominantly faced, Djokovic and Murray who Federer predominantly faced, and at this point Sharapova is on a level with Djokovic, and Azarenka on one with Murray, if you are comparing their careers and places amongst their gender in history.

If Sharapova ends up with 7 or 8 slams (probably a good guess) and Djokovic ends up with 8 or 9 (probably a good guess) their places in history per their genders will be about the same, especialy if Djokovic never gets the Career Slam which Maria managed. Azarenka probably has an even better chance to win 4 slams or more than Murray does.

Serena btw was ranked #14 before her last 2 slam wins, Olympic Gold, and WTA Championship, all at 31. Looking at the list of names I would already be certain she is atleast risen to #10 now if they redid the list. Serena's career is likely only going to keep getting better and Nadal's has probably already virtually ended. It is likely Serena will not be behind Nadal on any list in a year or twos times, and I am just as big or bigger a Nadal fan as I am a Serena fan but that is reality. Also regardless of the Tennis Channel list many by the U.S Open were starting to talk about Serena as the best female player in history, something that nobody says or ever will say about Nadal when it comes to the men.

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You're being inconsistent here. In your post, you also later stated that Serena is currently behind Nadal on the "greatness list"...EVEN though she has 4 more slams than Nadal. Why? Because she is a woman and therefore that has to be factored in?

Then you must use that same logic and apply it to Djoko/Pova. How can Sharapova be on par with Djokovic when she is one slam BEHIND Djokovic (while you feel that Serena is behind Nadal even though she has 4 more slams than Nadal). Wouldn't Sharapova need to be at least around 3 slams ahead of Djokovic as well?? (if you factor in her Career Slam).

So no...as per gender I believe Djokovic is quite a bit ahead of Sharapova.

Not to mention, Sharapova was never a dominating force on tour like Djokovic was able to produce in 2011.

Please see 2012 Cincy Final. ******* can take out Djoker. It can go either way. It's a coin flip right now.

Delpo is more of a challenge, I think, for *******.

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Delpo is getting better and will challenge Roger better moving forward, but as for 2012, Federer obliterated DelPo.

6-2 this season including the important matches at the FO and Olympics... 13-4 overall... Not to mention the second loss at the ATP finals barely counted since pwnerer didn't even need that win to advance.. so of course he wasn't going to dig deep

i realize DelPo is getting legit though and that that head to head is going to narrow, but they are highly unlikely to meet 8 times in a season again... that's insane.

Djokovic has a 7-3 record vs ******* the last 2 years, yet is less of a challenge than Del Potro who has only beaten him once in I forget how many matches, and runs out of gas after a set and half of any physical match he plays. Only on Planet TW.