Perhaps we'd be better off if skallas made posts about subjects other than religion.posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 12:44 PM on February 27, 2004

The actions descibed in the article are deplorable and the conduct of many in the church heirarchy equally so, but they are victims of depraved individuals and corrupt heirarchies. They are no "victims of Xtianity," any more than 9/11 casualties are victims of aviation and architcture.posted by jonmc at 12:50 PM on February 27, 2004

if anything, i found mr. gibson's movie to be an affirmation of the values that we should practice.

Perhaps we'd be better off if skallas posted some decent links, rather than a Reuters article and an op-ed from a survivors network. How about you augment that with links to the just-released reports? How about links to some contextual articles, so we understand how this sits in comparison to the original estimates?

Just for a view from the other side, one response from the other side to this whole ordeal.
As a Catholic, this disturbs me. Greatly. Hell, this hits closely to home as the Priest who worked with my brothers when they were altar servers was found out to be a pedophile and (rightfully so) went to jail. Plus, my Aunt (a nun) is a Provincial Leader up in Minnesota (think Arch-Bishop, but with more power). One lady accused one of her nuns of pedophilia, but dropped the charges when she admitted she was only doing it to make my aunt listen (my aunt had to get a restraining order because the lady was stalking her) Alas, a couple points:
a) I think that Priests who are accused of pedophilia should go to trial as any normal person would. If you live in the US and get the rights of a citizen, a part of that is having to live under the letter of the law.
b) Yes, this is a problem in the CC and must be dealt with and should be in the public eye, but people make it out to be that the CC is the only group with this problem. All groups of people- Catholics, Protestants, day-care-workers, whatever- where pedophilia occurs more than it should be (as in if it happens at all) should be brought to the public's attention.
c) On a more personal level, yes these Priests are definitely not living up the the precepts of the CC and should be dealt with harshly for it, but that does not change my beliefs as a Catholic as if I did, that would miss the entire point of why I hold the beliefs I do.posted by jmd82 at 12:56 PM on February 27, 2004

victims of Xtianity

Yeah, cause you know, we Christians are all about the evil. Even as we speak my sinister church leaders are putting the final touches on their orbital mind control beams. Soon, no one will be able to escape our charity bake sales and Christmas pageant! Mwahaha!posted by unreason at 12:56 PM on February 27, 2004

What are the odds of a round number like that?posted by yerfatma at 1:21 PM on February 27, 2004

What are the odds of a round number like that?

1 in 100, if I'm not mistakenposted by milnak at 1:24 PM on February 27, 2004

So, its more sensible to attack the poster rather than the fact that these are the admitted cases? The ones where the molesting priest actually has confessed to sexual misconduct? How many more are there that have been "forgotten"?

And when are these pedophiles going to be rounded up and prosecuted? Just because they were the cloth doesn't mean they're above the law and I'm kind of sick and tired of the kid gloves being used on these perverted predators.

The other priests that aren't guilty of molesting children should be shouting loudly for the removal of these scumbags so that the church's black eyes can begin to heal. Moving them from parish to parish is pathetic and demonstrates a truly appalling lack of intelligence. Moving a pedophile from one place to another just gives him new stock to prey upon.

Throw the freakin' bum touchers in prison! And quit apologizing and do something about it!posted by fenriq at 1:39 PM on February 27, 2004

They are no "victims of Xtianity," any more than 9/11 casualties are victims of aviation and architcture.

Sorry, but that is the most ridiculous statement I've seen in ages.posted by rushmc at 1:49 PM on February 27, 2004

rushmc: I'm not sure that jonmc's statement is entirely ridiculous. He seems to view religion as a tool to be wielded by humans. When those humans are wicked, or greedy, or lustful, the tool can be used to cause great pain. But religion is also a source of hope and joy for many, many people. Religion itself is amoral: it has no more moral quality than a hammer or an automobile or a piece of music. It is the flaws of religious leaders that create victims.posted by mr_roboto at 2:09 PM on February 27, 2004

Great link, Skallas.

They are no "victims of Xtianity"

Lord, lord. There are no sinners amongst thy flock.

Perhaps we'd be better off if skallas made posts about subjects other than religion.

The Truth will set you free, right?

Perhaps we'd be better off if Xtians would (1) finally recognize that the gulf between Christ's teachings and how they have transgressed throughout history has been huge (2) learn some humility (3) and start getting that log out of their eyes.posted by Twang at 2:29 PM on February 27, 2004

Perhaps you would be better off if you stopped generalizing all Christians.posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 3:01 PM on February 27, 2004

(1) finally recognize that the gulf between Christ's teachings and how they have transgressed throughout history has been huge
I did; I became Protestant. Whooo.posted by brownpau at 3:09 PM on February 27, 2004

Unlike, say, the medical profession, the Catholic Church is an institution... and one that seems to have orchestrated a massive coverup over a period of decades... a coverup that wouldn't have been possible if they hadn't been organized, in some ways, to make the coverup possible. Thus the blame lies not only on the individual priests, but on the whole church.

brownpau: keeeep going...posted by squirrel at 3:11 PM on February 27, 2004

Religion itself is amoral: it has no more moral quality than a hammer or an automobile or a piece of music.

I hear you, but I disagree. I think religion is more analogous to authoritarianism than to a hammer, and as such is inherently immoral, although it may at times produce positive or desirably results.posted by rushmc at 5:54 PM on February 27, 2004

Those kids are victims of pedophiles who managed to hide themselves inside a religion. Nobody is a victim of Christianity. I suppose if I said 3000 New Yorkers were victims of Islam you'd throw a hissy fit, though.posted by tomorama at 8:19 PM on February 27, 2004

Those kids are victims of pedophiles who managed to hide themselves inside a religion.

Initially, yes. But then they were the victims of the organizational coverup, in which complicity stretches a lot wider. The culture is what made this a lot more than an isolated incident here and there.posted by rushmc at 9:03 PM on February 27, 2004

Unlike, say, the medical profession, the Catholic Church is an institution...

Ever try to join the medical profession? Or compete with it? Is there any more institutionalized profession in America?posted by subgenius at 11:13 PM on February 27, 2004

Yeah. The clergy, for one. As in my point.posted by squirrel at 11:35 PM on February 27, 2004

It's about time to remind these priests that they are not above the law.posted by john at 1:06 AM on February 28, 2004

Ever try to join the medical profession? Or compete with it? Is there any more institutionalized profession in America?

Whatever. The point is, if I may speak for squirrel, is that members of the Church aren't customers. They're partners.posted by jpoulos at 5:59 AM on February 28, 2004

It's about time to remind these priests that they are not above the law.
As I mentioned above, I fully agree and I'm a Catholic.posted by jmd82 at 9:24 AM on February 28, 2004

It's about time to remind these priests that they are not above the law.

It's not the priests who feel they are above the law (they're just typical weasal scumbag criminals who are trying not to get caught). It's the bishops and cardinals who don't believe the laws of man apply to the church.posted by jpoulos at 10:16 AM on February 28, 2004

Say what you will about the AMA, subgenious. The decree that their law is naturally and absolutely superior to secular law appears nowhere among their texts, far less their central, virtually singular text. The Catholic institution, itself, has become organized around tasks that put it in direct violation of its own most fundamental dictates, specifically those about pride, greed and dishonesty.

The only way they can maintain a believable facade of integrity is to make a big, big noise right now--as if God the Father has come home to find the children, in their imperfection, have made a mess of the house, and now He must begin to clean house from top to bottom.

But the Catholic Church isn't doing this. Instead, they're making a big ceremony of bringing out one dusty doily to shake off in the front yard. And they're watching us, saying, "See? All clean!"

And the mess that they've made has ruined thousands of lives. Even if they are no longer a credible issuance of God's will, mustn't they be held accountable for the damage they do as an institution?posted by squirrel at 2:03 PM on February 28, 2004

Say what you will about the AMA, subgenious. The decree that their law is naturally and absolutely superior to secular law appears nowhere among their texts...

From the Hippocratic Oath:
The health of my patient will be my first consideration;
[that is, the purpose of their profession is naturally superior]
...
I will not permit considerations of religion, nationality, race, party politics or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient;
[and where other issues intervene, they actually don't]
...
even under threat I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the laws of humanity.
[that is, a superior natural law preceeding secular law]

Hm.......And, to create a competing clergy one needs merely craft a new faith, or claim to be a minister, and thereby acquire all rights and responsibilities. You go around calling yourself a doctor, and you go to jail. The AMA is much more institutionalized than the various churches....

I'm curious, though.... Has anyone measured the percentage likelihood of pedophilic priests against their population, and compared that to the general incidence of pedophilia in the target culture? Are they more disposed, less so, or neither?

(fwiw: I have, and the numbers were nearly identical for my horrible attempt - it's not an easy measure to acquire from reading other studies without source data.)posted by dwivian at 9:01 PM on February 28, 2004

You raise some good points in comparing the AMA to the Catholic Church. I'm not convinced, but I'm more persuaded that the former poses a threat to humanity anywhere near that of the latter. For one thing, at least the AMA considers itself bound by what you call laws of humanity. Not so the Vatican. Good points, though.posted by squirrel at 10:10 AM on February 29, 2004

Hey, the AMA and Christian Organizations of all kinds can equally evil.

Any assumption of truth or validity w/o argument is pure 100% evil.

The difference is that the AMA could be fixed, by doing, among other things, no harm. Christianity, on the other hand, would have to become personal rather than public, demonstrative rather than vocative, which would end Christianity as we know it.posted by ewkpates at 8:23 AM on March 1, 2004

As some know it, yes.

For me, my faith is personal, demonstrative, and apologetic. Maybe I should start a movement....

"You can get anything absolved at Alice's Restaurant..."posted by dwivian at 8:14 AM on March 9, 2004

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