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Phrygian has a distinctive sound (dark and brooding) and so does lydian (light and majestic), basically almost opposite sounding... It's beyond me how somebody really listening can hear lydian in the tune at that point ... it's sort of like saying sad sounds happy...

With his rushed schedule I think Gary must have simply forgotten to mention it's A phrygian (Bb/A) and that you can think of the Bb lydian scale when soloing (or the F major scale, or any of the 7 modes in F major for that matter).

Lost Woods
Full Member
Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 105
Loc: The Netherlands

For some reason or the other, I don't really (and never did) dig this scale/guidetones etc. thing... Why not? Because there is a lot of thinking going which on distracts me from making the music and why think about a scale if all notes are available.

I would rather approach improv the way like, how Gary tells, Stan Getz does."He had never studies music theory much, didn't know much about chords, he just knew the basic triad for each chord symbol that he saw. He would start with those notes and than use his ear to find other notes and he would make mistakes sometimes, but he got very good at correcting them by sliding into the next note to make it sound ok and so on."

Since I'm never going to be a professional Jazz piano player, and do not have the time pro's have... Sometimes I think, isn't it smarter just to concentrate on the ear and learn how to play the melody's straight from your mind without thinking in scales etc. Isn't that what Improv is about in the end? Do pro's play like "o here is D dorian, E altered, A symmetrical diminished" or just "go with the flow" without really thinking about scales.

I'm thinking about a way to try playing the line as you hear it in your mind by for example: hear the changes (and melody).. than stop playing the changes (pause), sing the melody that just came up and learn it with your fingers and play it over the changes. Again and again until you can almost nail (any) melody in your head correctly immediately without having to pause..

Maybe I'm just not patient enough... but hope you guys understand where I'm coming from.

EDIT:This is almost exactly like how I think:Greg Fishman: Some students learn to play a diminished whole-tone scale when they see an altered dominant chord, and so they are going to play it because it is the "correct" thing to do. The problem with that is that it's meaningless if they arrive at those note choices by theory alone, and not by ear. I call this phenomenon "empty note playing." These are notes without specific harmonic intent. The notes may be technically correct, but they won't be as convincingly played as the same notes arrived at by a gut-level, emotional feeling to play those particular sounds.

With his rushed schedule I think Gary must have simply forgotten to mention it's A phrygian (Bb/A) and that you can think of the Bb lydian scale when soloing (or the F major scale, or any of the 7 modes in F major for that matter).

Don't feel bad. This course is VERY advanced. A very smart teacher told me that beginner improvise with emotion and feeling, but as they advance, they learn to apply all those rules they have accumulated over the years.

That's not to say that everyone plays with guide lines. In fact, I'd bet that many of the greatest musicians wouldn't even know what they are.

Yes, what I wouldn't give to have that wonderful lyrical sound of Stan Getz. I recall hearing (from a documentary I saw 20 years ago so hopefully still have my facts straight) that Stan's buddy Chet Baker was the same way, and in fact could barely read music. I often wonder how common having a truly great ear is among jazz musicians, especially among people just starting out. I expect that over time my ear will slowly develop, but meanwhile chordscales give me a leg up on narrowing down the choices of notes.

Elk,Dave Frank is going to release another YouTube video covering ear training.He will talk about lennie's method, charlie's, and finally his own.Charlie Banacos is notorious for being one of the best jazz teacher ever and his ear trainig method is often referred to. However, everything ever taught was often very secretive. Presumably because he tailored his approach to each student.Anyway, if you ve had the chanve to experience dave's ear, you will, like me, wait for the video to come out.

With his rushed schedule I think Gary must have simply forgotten to mention it's A phrygian (Bb/A) . . .

I really don't think so, GB is extremly concious of what he's doing/saying/playing . . also as I can recall, from interviews, etc, Carla Bley wrote Ohlos for him, and she is very particular about what scale-sound to use in her tunes.

For some reason or the other, I don't really (and never did) dig this scale/guidetones etc. thing... Why not? Because there is a lot of thinking going which on distracts me from making the music and why think about a scale if all notes are available. . . .

You're bringing forth some really valid points LW. David Baker told me in a class last summer (yay go Aebersold summer-camps!) that he was wrong in a lot of his early books and that the ear should always prevail.That said, I really enjoy theory, I like finding out how and why "things" work, but apart from analysing, learning about chord-tones, etc I couldn't really connect it with my ear until I met Pat Harbison last summer (yay go Aebersold summer-camps!) in his theory class that I finally got a method to practice chord/scale relationships.So I really believe that theory combined with an intuitive ear is the way to go.

I found this paragraph written by jazz trumpet instructor Pat Harbison:

"It is the role of the conscious mind to listen to what's going on around you and to imagine the sound of the missing part. If you are reading music the dots tell you what sounds to imagine. If you are playing a memorized piece it is your memory that supplies the missing part. If you are improvising it is the unconscious creative mind that supplies the missing part. This is all that you should be consciously aware of while playing (when you have achieved a high level of skill). Sing the sound of the missing part in your mind and trust your unconscious mind, nervous system, and muscles to do what you have ordered. Your unconscious mind will do the very best it can based on your present level of skill and experience. We practice fundamentals (chord/scales/arpeggios) in order to store efficient ways to make all of the various sounds we might desire in our unconscious minds as kinesthetic memories. "

Yay. That's Pat alright (Prof of Jazz studies at Indiana). He's a great teacher and as I wrote earlier he has a really good method to practice theory and enable it to move from the conscious mind to the intuitive part.

These are some good points why to learn the theory/chord scales:"LEARNING THE SOUND OF JAZZPlaying scales, arpeggios, and chord progressions will help train your ear to identify the sound of jazz melodies and harmonies."

"STIMULATES NEW IDEASAdvanced theory concepts such as chord substitutions and alterations can help players unlock new sounds and directions in their playing. For some people, these ideas are easier to come by when visualized and/or thought of from a mathematical/structured approach."

That's a good point. I can only imagine playing for example a D dorian scale in my mind if I know what it sounds like. So knowing your scales/arpeggio's etc. broadens the horizon.

Nice notes, folks . And it swings. I think if you injected just a tiny bit more energy into the swing you would really have something there. Check Red Garland and Wynton Kelly, the way they make there swing sound lively on a blues at that tempo.

Well, I'll be . . . you did play the head (and quite nicely, may I add). I don't know what I was listening to - very strange. Anyway, I did enjoy the course a lot and have lots to work on in my own time. Let's hope there's another! In the evaluation, I wrote that I'd like to see a coursera offering on reharmonization, whole tone series compositions, etc. Whatever they offer, I'll probably sign up.