Since we're at the midway point of the 2012 season, I thought it'd be interesting to compare Irvin's stats to the other D-Lineman taken in the first round that the Hawks were rumored to be interested in.

So what grade do you guys give Bruce halfway through his first season? While I like his POTENTIAL to be a bigtime pass rusher, I look at the stats of a full time D-End like Jones who's lighting up his rookie year........taken AFTER Irvin, and see that Irvin has a long long way to go to earn his high draft pick.

Let's be honest, Irvin has had flashes of brilliance (Green Bay game).......but for the most part has been invisible for long stretches of the season so far.

I'd like to see more consistency from him on the road. At home, the pass rush is at such a big advantage with the crowd.. but on the road our pass rush completely disappears for big stretches of time.

I think Clemons has done more on the road than Irvin has. Would like to see that change. Kid has major potential though once he learns a couple more moves. Right now I think he's using strictly speed in a lot of cases.

If I just rated him on the Packer game, I'd give him an A+...but for the season overall, he's had some ups and downs, so I'd have to grade him in the low B category. His rating is based on the fact that he was a mid 1st round pick...if he'd been a later pick, he'd be rated higher, but you have to grade 1st round picks a little differently IMO

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

hawkfan68 wrote:I think Irvin is doing well. He's not a full-time DE at this point and his sack numbers are the second highest.

My concern isn't his sack total, it's his tackle total. Didn't Carroll say after he was drafted that he fully expected Irvin to develop into full time DE, and not just a "pass rush specialist?"

I know Irvin is still developing, but if the Detroit game proved anything, it's that our D-Line desperately needs him to get consistent pressure on the QB. We're now halfway through the season, it's time for Irvin to step up. This D can't afford for him to be absent on the stat sheet anymore.

Sgt. Largent wrote:Since we're at the midway point of the 2012 season, I thought it'd be interesting to compare Irvin's stats to the other D-Lineman taken in the first round that the Hawks were rumored to be interested in.

So what grade do you guys give Bruce halfway through his first season? While I like his POTENTIAL to be a bigtime pass rusher, I look at the stats of a full time D-End like Jones who's lighting up his rookie year........taken AFTER Irvin, and see that Irvin has a long long way to go to earn his high draft pick.

Let's be honest, Irvin has had flashes of brilliance (Green Bay game).......but for the most part has been invisible for long stretches of the season so far.

I disagree. Chandler Jones is a full-time starter and has just 1.5 sacks more than Irvin. Irvin has has more of an impact if you were to compare sacks per rush attempts. Also you must factor in that Chandler Jones has much more "quality" opportunites to rush the passer as NE in several games have been up significantly forcing teams to abandon the run and he can just tee off on them. Which means that Jones has not only had more opportunities but I would submit has had more "quality" opportunties to rush the passer.

Hasselbeck wrote:I'd like to see more consistency from him on the road. At home, the pass rush is at such a big advantage with the crowd.. but on the road our pass rush completely disappears for big stretches of time.

I think Clemons has done more on the road than Irvin has. Would like to see that change. Kid has major potential though once he learns a couple more moves. Right now I think he's using strictly speed in a lot of cases.

I don't know. Irvin has 2.5 sacks at home (.5 against Dallas, 2 against GB) and 2 sacks on the road (2 against Carolina)

hawkfan68 wrote:I think Irvin is doing well. He's not a full-time DE at this point and his sack numbers are the second highest.

My concern isn't his sack total, it's his tackle total. Didn't Carroll say after he was drafted that he fully expected Irvin to develop into full time DE, and not just a "pass rush specialist?"

I know Irvin is still developing, but if the Detroit game proved anything, it's that our D-Line desperately needs him to get consistent pressure on the QB. We're now halfway through the season, it's time for Irvin to step up. This D can't afford for him to be absent on the stat sheet anymore.

Look at our defense right now. When we drafted him, Clemons was holding out for a long term contract (which he eventually got). This is just Irvin's first year. We have Clemons and Bryant as our starting DE's. There's no place for another starting DE right now. I think he very well can develop into a starting DE, but he's not here to supplant either Red or Clemons right now, he's here to develop and rotate in on pass rushing downs

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

DE has a sharp learning curve at the NFL level. It's not unusual for guys to take some time to learn the position. I think he's doing just fine. He has as many sacks mario williams had in his entire rookie campaign.

I don't see any red flags, anything to be overly concerned about. Just feels like searching for problems where there really isn't one to me.

easy to blam the DE's when no pressure is coming up the middle.. in the green bay game the DE's had a big day because mebane and jones were collapsing the pocket so rodgers couldnt step up and instead of being pushed harmlessly downfield of the qb.. they ended up right on top of him.

jlwaters1 wrote:I disagree. Chandler Jones is a full-time starter and has just 1.5 sacks more than Irvin. Irvin has has more of an impact if you were to compare sacks per rush attempts. Also you must factor in that Chandler Jones has much more "quality" opportunites to rush the passer as NE in several games have been up significantly forcing teams to abandon the run and he can just tee off on them. Which means that Jones has not only had more opportunities but I would submit has had more "quality" opportunties to rush the passer.

I think he's showing that he's deserving of his draft status.

I hear ya, I'm just a little disappointed that Irvin hasn't been more consistent with his opportunities. For a high first round pick, we need him to produce, and so far he hasn't produced enough IMO.

hawkfan68 wrote:Didn't Carroll say after he was drafted that he fully expected Irvin to develop into full time DE, and not just a "pass rush specialist?"

Develop into, yes. But that's a long term plan and it's now how he's being used now. He currently takes the field almost exclusively for passing downs, which means that he doesn't really have a chance to get tackles that aren't sacks.

Step forward Bruce Irvin who has become a key part of the Seaahwks exceptional nickel and dime packages. Irvin is the highest ranked rookie on the list (8th), with the next best rookie being Chandler Jones in 24th spot.

When he was drafted, we hoped to get the next Aldon Smith. So far, we've gotten it. I can't see how we could be disappointed.

bruce irvings tackle totals are not going to be as high as a full time DE like jones , because he's usually only in there on passing downs, which means he's usually not going to be around the play to make the tackle, unless it's a sack or tackle by the line of scrimmage... i think he's doing fine, would like to see more moves than the speed and bull rush, but that'll come i'm sure..

sadhappy wrote: Just feels like searching for problems where there really isn't one to me.

You don't think our D-Line's lack of a consistent pass rush this year is a problem? It certainly was in the Lion game, and I could argue was the determining factor in the loss.

Jones is a bigger piece of the puzzle than you give credit for. Our pass rush did decline last week and Jones was in street clothes. Pass rushing is one of those things that has many contributing factors, and how the inside lineman play makes a big difference on how easily DE's can get free to rush the passer.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

aku wrote:When he was drafted, we hoped to get the next Aldon Smith. So far, we've gotten it. I can't see how we could be disappointed.

We did?

Smith had 31 tackles and 14 sacks last year. Irvin is on pace for 14 tackles and 9 sacks. That's not even close.

Actually, it's closer than you think. Irvin plays less than Aldon Smith. Smith is an every down DE in 49er system. Irvin is not that in the Seahawk system. Red Bryant and Clemons get most of the reps in the current Seahawk scheme. So comparing the two is somewhat flawed logic. As others have mentioned, there is schematic difference between 49er defense and Seahawk defense. Thus making the comparison even more irrelevant.

I think he's done pretty good thus far but the last few games he seems to be reverting back to just speed rushing rather that working on spin or swim moves to discard his blocker. These skills will come in time with proper coaching. Overall I'm glad we have him.

Sgt. Largent wrote:Since we're at the midway point of the 2012 season, I thought it'd be interesting to compare Irvin's stats to the other D-Lineman taken in the first round that the Hawks were rumored to be interested in.

So what grade do you guys give Bruce halfway through his first season? While I like his POTENTIAL to be a bigtime pass rusher, I look at the stats of a full time D-End like Jones who's lighting up his rookie year........taken AFTER Irvin, and see that Irvin has a long long way to go to earn his high draft pick.

Let's be honest, Irvin has had flashes of brilliance (Green Bay game).......but for the most part has been invisible for long stretches of the season so far.

He is primarily playing 3rd down only.... I think you forgot to mention that...or maybe you didn't know that.

sadhappy wrote: Just feels like searching for problems where there really isn't one to me.

You don't think our D-Line's lack of a consistent pass rush this year is a problem? It certainly was in the Lion game, and I could argue was the determining factor in the loss.

I'm on the fence with statments like this. We are ranked 7th in the league with 21 sacks. So it's not like we aren't getting to the QB. Sure 8 of those 21 are against GB but we are consistently getting 2 or more sacks in nearly every outing. So it might be unrealistic to think we should be getting 3-4 sacks a game. But it is clear that our pass rush is spotty. At times it looks brilliant, but it also disappears for long stretches.

I think we need to dial up more blitzes. It seems like we are relying on a 4 man rush way too often. It cound be worse, Jacksonville has 7 sacks TOTAL, Philly has 9.

I'd give Irvin a C+. Seems like if he is facing any O lineman with decent quickness he gets easily swallowed up. But he has had a few glorious moments, so that saves him, plus I'd give him credit for being a rookie.

aku wrote:When he was drafted, we hoped to get the next Aldon Smith. So far, we've gotten it. I can't see how we could be disappointed.

We did?

Smith had 31 tackles and 14 sacks last year. Irvin is on pace for 14 tackles and 9 sacks. That's not even close.

Actually, it's closer than you think. Irvin plays less than Aldon Smith. Smith is an every down DE in 49er system. Irvin is not that in the Seahawk system. Red Bryant and Clemons get most of the reps in the current Seahawk scheme. So comparing the two is somewhat flawed logic. As others have mentioned, there is schematic difference between 49er defense and Seahawk defense. Thus making the comparison even more irrelevant.

Actually it is a fair comparison because last year Aldon Smith was a situational player as Irvin is this year. Also Aldon is starting this year you are right but it's at LBer.

What I don't think makes the comparison fair is that Aldon Smith is on a much better defense with better players around him giving him better chances.

jlwaters1 wrote:I think we need to dial up more blitzes. It seems like we are relying on a 4 man rush way too often. It cound be worse, Jacksonville has 7 sacks TOTAL, Philly has 9.

If the Hawks truly want to be considered an "elite" defense, then they're going to have to get consistent pressure with just their four down linemen.

I agree with your blitzing comment, but only too a point. What I'd like to see is more creative blitz packages, and not just rush Thomas or a DB off the edge when we need to get pressure. Blitzes can expose a defense as we saw in Detroit, which is why our front four need to do better.

I'd give him a c+ so far. Seems like he needs to develope a few more moves than just a speed rush. Think he has a good future ahead of him. I'd assume they try and get him to add a little weight this off season and become an every down DE eventually.

hedgehawk wrote:I'd give him a c+ so far. Seems like he needs to develope a few more moves than just a speed rush. Think he has a good future ahead of him. I'd assume they try and get him to add a little weight this off season and become an every down DE eventually.

Good points! We Seattle fans seem to be "driven for perfection". There are some here who won't settle for a "Top 10" producer. While you and I may question Pete's wisdom in drafting Irvin in the First Round of the Draft, we cannot say that Pete did not have a very specific use for Bruce in his first year. Young players take a year or two to develope into their full potential. Most here are expecting a stronger team for next year and are looking forward to a 11-5 season where Bruce will show even greater production.

Sgt. Largent wrote:Since we're at the midway point of the 2012 season, I thought it'd be interesting to compare Irvin's stats to the other D-Lineman taken in the first round that the Hawks were rumored to be interested in.

I'm not sure how useful these statistical summaries are for comparing different players used in different ways in different systems. Whitney Mercilus, for example, is actually listed as a linebacker who has seen more snaps on special teams (109) than on defense (79) thru week 8.

But in any case, providing snap counts on defense thru week 8 might add some perspective.

By the way, Bruce Irvin leads all Seahawk defensive linemen in special teams snaps with 41 thru week eight. The trio of Mebane, Bryant and Branch are all tied for second with 28 special teams snaps each.

sadhappy wrote: Just feels like searching for problems where there really isn't one to me.

You don't think our D-Line's lack of a consistent pass rush this year is a problem? It certainly was in the Lion game, and I could argue was the determining factor in the loss.

That IMHO is a concern and a contributing factor in our losses this season. Putting the qb on his back, even if it isnt a sack affects the way a qb thinks , how long he's willing to hang onto the ball, produces "happy feet". Too many comfortable drop backs for Stafford. Oh yeah, he's a pretty damned good player too. 300 yards good.

hawkfan68 wrote:I think Irvin is doing well. He's not a full-time DE at this point and his sack numbers are the second highest.

My concern isn't his sack total, it's his tackle total. Didn't Carroll say after he was drafted that he fully expected Irvin to develop into full time DE, and not just a "pass rush specialist?"

I know Irvin is still developing, but if the Detroit game proved anything, it's that our D-Line desperately needs him to get consistent pressure on the QB. We're now halfway through the season, it's time for Irvin to step up. This D can't afford for him to be absent on the stat sheet anymore.

I think jason jones is the most vauable linemen

Pressure in the A gap moves the qb and allows ends to use speed and chase down. He will get paid next year...without inside pressure we are kind of stuck...

hawkfan68 wrote:I think Irvin is doing well. He's not a full-time DE at this point and his sack numbers are the second highest.

My concern isn't his sack total, it's his tackle total. Didn't Carroll say after he was drafted that he fully expected Irvin to develop into full time DE, and not just a "pass rush specialist?"

I know Irvin is still developing, but if the Detroit game proved anything, it's that our D-Line desperately needs him to get consistent pressure on the QB. We're now halfway through the season, it's time for Irvin to step up. This D can't afford for him to be absent on the stat sheet anymore.

I think jason jones is the most vauable linemen

Pressure in the A gap moves the qb and allows ends to use speed and chase down. He will get paid next year...without inside pressure we are kind of stuck...

MVP DL on passing downs at least.

Other than that minor caveat I reckon you pretty much summed it up. Jones moves the qb off his launch point and into the damage path of the ends. He's proving his point that he deserves to get paid.

Jville wrote:I'm not sure how useful these statistical summaries are for comparing different players used in different ways in different systems. Whitney Mercilus, for example, is actually listed as a linebacker who has seen more snaps on special teams (109) than on defense (79) thru week 8.

You kinda illustrated my concern. The criticism of most draft experts was that Irvin was a pass rush specialist, and therefore not worthy of such a high pick.......and your snap count list proves that.

This is also in direct contrast to what Carroll said at the draft which was Irvin was not going to just be a pass rusher, that he was going to be developed into a full time DE.

Will Irvin be great someday? Maybe, but right now we're not getting enough production out of that DE spot opposite Clemons, and it's hurting our pass defense.

Jville wrote:I'm not sure how useful these statistical summaries are for comparing different players used in different ways in different systems. Whitney Mercilus, for example, is actually listed as a linebacker who has seen more snaps on special teams (109) than on defense (79) thru week 8.

You kinda illustrated my concern. The criticism of most draft experts was that Irvin was a pass rush specialist, and therefore not worthy of such a high pick.......and your snap count list proves that.

This is also in direct contrast to what Carroll said at the draft which was Irvin was not going to just be a pass rusher, that he was going to be developed into a full time DE.

Will Irvin be great someday? Maybe, but right now we're not getting enough production out of that DE spot opposite Clemons, and it's hurting our pass defense.

Jville wrote:I'm not sure how useful these statistical summaries are for comparing different players used in different ways in different systems. Whitney Mercilus, for example, is actually listed as a linebacker who has seen more snaps on special teams (109) than on defense (79) thru week 8.

You kinda illustrated my concern. The criticism of most draft experts was that Irvin was a pass rush specialist, and therefore not worthy of such a high pick.......and your snap count list proves that.

This is also in direct contrast to what Carroll said at the draft which was Irvin was not going to just be a pass rusher, that he was going to be developed into a full time DE.

Will Irvin be great someday? Maybe, but right now we're not getting enough production out of that DE spot opposite Clemons, and it's hurting our pass defense.

Development time. Your talking about development time. Most rookies need time to develop their game in high school, college, and the NFL.

The draft objective that sticks in my mind is the selection of players with unique characteristics. Bruce Irvin as well as Jaye Howard have unique attributes that John and Pete covet. However, Bruce and Jaye both arrived with narrow specialties that limit their usefulness early on in their careers. Jaye Howard in fact has yet to see the field during the regular season.

I think the criticism that John and Pete have placed too much emphasis on specialists is a valid argument by outsiders. However, the current Seahawk program is structured to bring in and develop young players every year and turn over the roster in a planned manner.

So .... it may take two or three years to broaden the skill sets of Howard and Irvin and turn them into three down players. I for one was very relieved with the news that Chris Clemons signed a three year contract. In Seattle's current program, where a player is drafted is a reflection of perceived supply and demand of skill sets .... and not a reflection of perceived return on investement in the short term.

What I see is a program designed to dominate the division. Striving to understand it and watch it unfold is the fun part.

I think he is right on track, at the end of the year I will take 9 sacks in the limited amount of time he is on the field, once he develops technique to go with those mad physical gifts he has he will be a beast !

To be honest I'm quite surprised he managed 4.5 sacks so far. I don't know how to explain it but at times he seems just... helpless...Either he's trying to bull rush but doesn't have the strength or he's overshooting the QB and has the tackle just mirror him. He's very far from Clem right now, even if the stats won't show it.I'm not making any conclusions yet of course, but I really hope to see more from him, especially winning 1 on 1 matchups against the OT's

roiyair wrote:To be honest I'm quite surprised he managed 4.5 sacks so far. I don't know how to explain it but at times he seems just... helpless...Either he's trying to bull rush but doesn't have the strength or he's overshooting the QB and has the tackle just mirror him. He's very far from Clem right now, even if the stats won't show it.I'm not making any conclusions yet of course, but I really hope to see more from him, especially winning 1 on 1 matchups against the OT's

He is a rookie..... Pass rushing DEs typically don't make year one impacts.

Sgt. Largent wrote:Since we're at the midway point of the 2012 season, I thought it'd be interesting to compare Irvin's stats to the other D-Lineman taken in the first round that the Hawks were rumored to be interested in.

I'm not sure how useful these statistical summaries are for comparing different players used in different ways in different systems. Whitney Mercilus, for example, is actually listed as a linebacker who has seen more snaps on special teams (109) than on defense (79) thru week 8.

But in any case, providing snap counts on defense thru week 8 might add some perspective.

By the way, Bruce Irvin leads all Seahawk defensive linemen in special teams snaps with 41 thru week eight. The trio of Mebane, Bryant and Branch are all tied for second with 28 special teams snaps each.

Jville, excellent post. The bold part was the place I was most interested in seeing Irvin in this season with how raw he was coming in. Remember that he was not taught how to be a pass rusher at West Virginia. I was very excited to watch him coming off the edge for punt and field goal blocks, however a lot of the time, he is not giving his all trying to get there. It is probably the coaching instructing him not to go all out for blocks, but I am hoping that changes.

Jville wrote:I'm not sure how useful these statistical summaries are for comparing different players used in different ways in different systems. Whitney Mercilus, for example, is actually listed as a linebacker who has seen more snaps on special teams (109) than on defense (79) thru week 8.

You kinda illustrated my concern. The criticism of most draft experts was that Irvin was a pass rush specialist, and therefore not worthy of such a high pick.......and your snap count list proves that.

This is also in direct contrast to what Carroll said at the draft which was Irvin was not going to just be a pass rusher, that he was going to be developed into a full time DE.

Will Irvin be great someday? Maybe, but right now we're not getting enough production out of that DE spot opposite Clemons, and it's hurting our pass defense.

Development time. Your talking about development time. Most rookies need time to develop their game in high school, college, and the NFL.

The draft objective that sticks in my mind is the selection of players with unique characteristics. Bruce Irvin as well as Jaye Howard have unique attributes that John and Pete covet. However, Bruce and Jaye both arrived with narrow specialties that limit their usefulness early on in their careers. Jaye Howard in fact has yet to see the field during the regular season.

I think the criticism that John and Pete have placed too much emphasis on specialists is a valid argument by outsiders. However, the current Seahawk program is structured to bring in and develop young players every year and turn over the roster in a planned manner.

So .... it may take two or three years to broaden the skill sets of Howard and Irvin and turn them into three down players. I for one was very relieved with the news that Chris Clemons signed a three year contract. In Seattle's current program, where a player is drafted is a reflection of perceived supply and demand of skill sets .... and not a reflection of perceived return on investement in the short term.

What I see is a program designed to dominate the division. Striving to understand it and watch it unfold is the fun part.

I see Irvin getting beast-like in the 2nd half of year 2. He's got amazing raw physical talent, and I think the mental desire to improve. I see him flourishing in year 3, if the schemes and the accompanying personnel allow.