But, by the same token, here's always something that I've wondered: If a player is put into a position where he's more likely to make a bad play, then should we be surprised when he does?

I remember Errey showing a sequence of the Malkin line entering the offensive zone against the Leafs five strong. Geno literally had no options once he got five feet inside the offensive zone.

In a way, I think that's a giant metaphor for how it goes for a lot of the guys in a lot of situations.

I would put it another way.

If the same players are making the exact same mistakes over and over and over, is that not on the coach and GM as well? I mean there is some player responsibility too. No doubt. But we are not dealing with a team full of rookies. These are quality vets who should be coached when they are doing wrong. And Bylsma is obviously either not seeing it. Or if he is seeing it then he is not doing anything about i. Or if he is trying to do something about it then he can not reach these guys. Tell me one of those possiblities that is not on him.

Look, really, I don't see why we should be discussing about HCDB, the problems with his coaching(or lack thereof) have been going on for years.
He doesn't make in game adjustments, he doesn't held players accountable, he doesn't game plan, he doesn't dictate the match ups, he doesn't put players in position to succeed (for ex Neal on the point on the PP : brilliant, Malkin on the wing but I digress), offensively his system is taylor-made for a team made of grinder in its entirety(too bad we have 2 of the most skilled player on earth), players have been regressing defensively under his guidance, has been outcoached in about every series since the Cup, etc...

Frankly, I don't want to rip too much on the guy because we have seen in his coaching, next to no improvement over the years and recognizing that and taking decision such as replacing him or helping him out where he was lacking by giving him better assistants is ultimately Shero's job.

And no I don't think Reirden and Granato are helping the cause.

Not to mention, Shero hasn't done a move to address our glaring needs in a year, outside of signing Glass.
Although, I will be the first to say that he's one of the best in the business when it comes to making trades. (Staal's trade, Goli's )

I didn't start the thread to rip the guy, and I think everyone here has been really respectful.

And, yes, I even think a lot of people here are looking in Shero's direction too.

One thing: I was under the impression that the choice of assistant coaches belonged to Bylsma.

No. That is exactly what a poorly coached team looks like. That is exactly the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIRK

Absolutely, and I don't think that anyone would disagree.

But, by the same token, here's always something that I've wondered: If a player is put into a position where he's more likely to make a bad play, then should we be surprised when he does?

I remember Errey showing a sequence of the Malkin line entering the offensive zone against the Leafs five strong. Geno literally had no options once he got five feet inside the offensive zone.

In a way, I think that's a giant metaphor for how it goes for a lot of the guys in a lot of situations.

Oh I agree. There are clearly some glaring structural issues right now. I'm not letting Bylsma off the hook, I'm just saying that not everything is under the coach's control. I highly doubt it's part of Bylsma's system for Letang(and nearly everyone else) to pass up multiple open looks or for Cooke(and nearly everyone else) to make multiple fairly ridiculous turnovers. Some of these mistakes are a result of a system that puts players in bad positions, but some aren't. It's going to take more than a coaching change to get this team to where it needs to be.

Anyway, I don't even think they are being uncoordinated about how to play. They are playing what Bylsma preaches. After the Tampa series (note: not during), he went to the stretch pass to negate their system against us, but instead of it being a system designed against a particular opponents scheme against us, it has become the routine, and we're being obvious to anyone now.

Cole said something right in half response to my comment about us being a poor passing team for a long time now. He said it was about puck support. And that is true, but this is also down to it being impossible to support the puck when there are few if any short passes. What we do well is when we're on the rush after a turnover, because then we come up the ice fast with forwards close to eachother. Then we always look dangerous.

But right now we are simply a team that hopes our super stars will do the damage 5 on 5 or we hope our PP will sort us out. Our 'established' offense, for lack of a better word, is an abomination from a structural point of view. And that is because we keep doing exactly what our opponents expect, and the turnovers that result from this is the chief reason our otherwise (mostly) good defenders come to look terribad.

That's where I'm at: Are the players not making plays because they're not trying or because they're so hopelessly out of position that it takes a superhuman effort to make the plays?

In the end, I don't think it matters. Either one is on the coach ultimately.

That's where I was at with Therrien four years ago. It's where I'm at with Bylsma now.

But, as I said, I started this thread so we could have a mature conversation here and so that those who think Bylsma is a good coach and/or the right coach could discuss.

No. That is exactly what a poorly coached team looks like. That is exactly the issue.

QFT. When you have a bunch of players that have proved they buy into a system and do everything they are asked of them, Then stop doing that....That's always a major sign its over.

The real end all imo is this. How many games over the last 3 years have the penguins been out played and then turned it around on the other team ? Other than Malkin,Crosby, Letang or Neal taking the game over ? Not very ****ing many is the answer.

How many games has this team come out flying the first 10 minutes ? Hitting everything, chances defensive, ect. IT ALL GOES AWAY AFTER THE 2nd PERIOD. whats that ****ing tell you.

I forgot to mention it and i didnt c it posted anywhere else but the guy cant figure out how to coach a pp with the 2 best players in the world. He actually took the best player in the world off the #1 pp unit in the playoffs last year that alone should be enough to get him fired.

That's a fair one. I've always thought that the good PP's, whatever the set up, are predicated on player movement (not just one guy roving, but pieces moving in combination like a chess board) where the goal is to set up isolated 2 on 1's in high percentage scoring areas OR on blasting away without pause and crashing the net with numbers. The Pens don't do either.

Oh I agree. There are clearly some glaring structural issues right now. I'm not letting Bylsma off the hook, I'm just saying that not everything is under the coach's control. I highly doubt it's part of Bylsma's system for Letang(and nearly everyone else) to pass up multiple open looks or for Cooke(and nearly everyone else) to make multiple fairly ridiculous turnovers. Some of these mistakes are a result of a system that puts players in bad positions, but some aren't. It's going to take more than a coaching change to get this team to where it needs to be.

This really reminds me so much of January 2009. That team had bigger personnel problems than this one. That team had a situation where it was in a tailspin defined by players making the same mistakes over and over again.

Shero was forced by the risk of missing the playoffs then to make a change. I don't know that a similar risk will arise this year, but should that really be the standard, to make the playoffs?

I didn't start the thread to rip the guy, and I think everyone here has been really respectful.

don't know where you got this impression from my post, am I a bit too harsh with the guy? maybe.
Frankly I would have no problem with him staying as HC but he clearly needs a lot of help that are not providing Granato and Reirden.
Problem is, after each playoffs exit, Shero seems to always be placing the blame elsewhere (defense, injuries, goaltending) and he is in part right, but he never seem to be looking at the deficiencies of his coaching staff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIRK

And, yes, I even think a lot of people here are looking in Shero's direction too.

One thing: I was under the impression that the choice of assistant coaches belonged to Bylsma.

One thing that really could have helped would've been Bylsma's choices for assistant coaches. I remember saying get guys like Dave King (I wasn't alone) to help Bylsma in the areas where he was relatively weak. Bylsma opted for the 'yes' buddies.

don't know where you got this impression from my post, am I a bit too harsh with the guy? maybe.
Frankly I would have no problem with him staying as HC but he clearly needs a lot of help that are not providing Granato and Reirden.
Problem is, after each playoffs exit, Shero seems to always be placing the blame elsewhere (defense, injuries, goaltending) and he is in part right, but he never seem to be looking at the deficiencies of his coaching staff.

That's a fair one. I've always thought that the good PP's, whatever the set up, are predicated on player movement (not just one guy roving, but pieces moving in combination like a chess board) where the goal is to set up isolated 2 on 1's in high percentage scoring areas OR on blasting away without pause and crashing the net with numbers. The Pens don't do either.

I was watching the Sharks game the other day; wow their PP , you just described it.

As for the HC and assistants thing.... intuitively you would say that it would be good getting people in who has proven themselves capable in areas where Bylsma has not/was too green to have a resume.

But whereas that clearly hasn't happened, it is also difficult to say what the impact on having such guys on would be, because ultimately Bylsma is responsible for what we see on the ice and Shero is responsible for hiring decisions, never mind if Bylsma has stated preferences.

Shero too. There are way to many holes in important areas on this team. How long is it going to take to get Crosby a winger? This is crazy already. The Flyers and Rangers find players like Read and Hagelin but the Pens are going to sit on glorified role players??? To be honest I think he has as little a clue about offensive hockey as Disco.

To be honest, I agree with this. Shero's got to take some of the blame because of the personnel.

Say what you will about teams like the Flyers or Rangers, but when they see a perceived need, they do whatever they can to address it. The Rangers finished first in the East last year, but felt they needed more offensive punch to go deep in the playoffs. All they did was bring in Rick Nash.

Meanwhile, Pens sucked defensively against Philly and have had a hole on Crosby's wing since Hossa, and what did they do to address either of those issues this off-season? Got rid of Michalek and brought in ... Tanner Glass as the only forward addition.

Bylsma has his issues, but Shero, IMO, has to be more proactive about fixing our weaknesses.

I was watching the Sharks game the other day; wow their PP , you just described it.

And do the Sharks have players complimenting each other all over those PP units? I terms of roles, tendencies, handedness etc? Do they have a genuine PP QB? Do they have quality guys in front of the cage to screen?

For four years now I have said that a good/great PP is not about super stars. When our PP scores on a high percentage of their PPs (and they do), then yes... it is because we have a couple of flat out awesome players. But we don't have a full, functional PP unit much less two like the Sharks.

I started to do a multi-quote of posts that covered what I think are key issues, then realized I was going to be quoting pretty much the whole thread.

For me, there are a lot of reasons why I think Bylsma should be replaced, and I've had that opinion for a while now. Most of the points have already been covered:

Inability to adjust in game. Inability to pre-plan. Which ties into the issues with the system itself. Which he's had months to really examine and compare and contrast with what other teams do, what works, what doesn't. I think that's what frustrates me the most. Months to study tape, plan ahead, tweak the system, and here we are.

Lack of accountability, favoring vets because they're vets, mishandling development of players ... and an apparent inability to coach truly talented players.

I've always felt that he more or less walked into the Cup win, but I was willing to see what he'd do to make the team his own. To quote MT 'nod impress'. The window is closing on Sid and Geno's prime, I don't want to give him the rest of this season. But, honestly, I wanted a coaching change last year before the debacle of the playoffs. The only thing that kept me in the 'let's see what happens next year' was because of the possible tensions in the room, that a couple of unhappy players may have been disrupting the overall dynamic, and that once that wasn't a potential issue things might change. And that hasn't happened.

Well, perhaps that's part of the issue, which is on the GM as much as the coach.

That said, I seem to recall a lack of talent (aside from the obvious two) not being an issue with you with the previous coach.

So, I'll ask: Why is Bylsma the right coach for the Pens?

I don't presume that you necessarily think that as much as you're pointing out other factors. I'd just like to know what's different, from your perspective, now than where the Pens team was four years ago that causes you to raise the lack of talent issue first, because this team has more talent than the one then did.

I don't know if he's the right coach or not. If I felt this was even close to a complete team, coaching is the first place I would look.

But it's not a complete team, and I swear what irks me the most on these boards, more than anything else, is the assumption that because of two bodies, the TEAM is and should be better than everyone else. Its such an Xbox mentality that I honestly want to stay away from these boards.

Crosby, Malkin, Neal , do not equate to what Chicago can roll out there. When healthy, it doesn't even come close to what Philly could throw out there. I'm using them as two prime examples, but they aren't the only ones.

You have to understand one thing about me: I love my Penguins and Broncos as much as anyone loves their favorite teams, but I never overrate them in terms of talent. That's why whenever I hear these moron prognosticators automatically say "Penguins", I feel like punching the screen because they fall into the same trap that fans do: they overrate the team because of two players, while completely ignoring the supporting cast. That's why the Broncos loss still stings. Yeah they were missing a couple of pieces, but they were finally primed to win, and that's why I still haven't gotten over it. Pens losing to Philly last year? How could anyone not see that coming?

Dupuis can score 30 goals, but he wouldn't be a 30 goal scorer if that makes any sense to you. Same with Kunitz. All I see, and all I've seen for years is one legit scoring line, and glorified third liners sandwiching either Malkin or Crosby (depending on who is healthy) This is not sustainable by any stretch once things start to ramp up in the postseason.

We have three bodies, THREE, who can produce offense on their own. Frankly, its embarrassing when you compare that to the other contenders in the league. That's why I get a kick out of reading silly posts complaining about chest sniping and lack of creativity: what else do these penguin rosters have, other than chest snipers and uncreative forwards littered everywhere? Why are we complaining about kunitz and dupuis not being able to do more when they're clearly incapable of it? You think we are turning pucks over now? Wait until the blunt instruments start attempting "five foot passes" through defenders in the neutral zone, then it'll get really interesting to see everyone's reaction when the puck starts going the other way.

As to why they won the cup? Why did Carolina win it then not make the playoffs the following year. Why hasn't Detroit won a playoff round in three years? Why did Chicago need a Dallas loss on the last day of the season to even make the playoffs the following year after they won? How did Boston blow a 3-0 lead to Philly one year, then sweep them the next? Sometimes, the stars simply align, and sometimes they don't.

I could care less if bylsma gets fired and ends up in a shelter, as long as his replacement is someone I know will make things better. My point in all this is that this team has been fatally flawed for years personnel wise, and while coaching may be a problem, its near the bottom of the list of what's wrong with this team.