[Spoiler] The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

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Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

How do you fight someone you just found out to be your master's daughter while trying to convince her of her wrong path? You don't go all in.

And Gray took actually the same flying kick in his stomach from Ulltear that Mira dealt to Fried and Azuma.

Thanks for the reply! Yes, I did mention in my post that Gray's one thing he would almost definitely have over Mirajane is endurance - or at least his determination to keep going, as seen in his fight with Bixlow. However, the problem with the Ultear fight is that she literally discarded using Time Arc and heck, even when they went to hand-to-hand and really just stayed there. Now, Gray's hand-to-hand combat is nothing to laugh at, however it should be noted in the water that he had an unfair advantage both getting the first strike and Ultear stopped flowing for quite a bit giving him time to charge Gungir and "defeat" her, which was more or less Ultear just losing will to battle than actually losing in combat.

Originally Posted by hoeru

Read again: Those weren't range attacks. She attacked her opponents from close range. Nothing Mira has shown indicates, that she has the same range as Gray.

Both were used at short range - in respect to her hand-to-hand combat, however can also be used at long-range, as seen when she used it on Azuma. It's true Gray's arrow has a large range, but be reasonable. This isn't Lyon, Sherry and Gray vs Mirajane - this is Gray vs Mirajane. There is no way for him to get an opportunity to shoot Mirajane from a very far distance and she does have her nuke-beams, Sitri-speed and such to avoid or counter the arrow in any case.

Originally Posted by hoeru

Episode 138 is a filler, and as fillers aren't done by the original author - he doesn't have to give his okay - so it's not relevant at all to strength comparisons, as the content is contradicting in most cases anyways. That's a basic in discussion about manga.

So anything about Zentopia so far is irrelevant.

Except it's been referenced in the manga, but that's irrelevant to the debate. It's up to the reader of my post to determine whether they count the form as canon or not, because it was clearly Mashima's idea to insert it where he even posted a sketch of it on his twitter, as well as for Midnight.

Contrary to what one may think, a large, large majority take the fillers at least half-canon.

I never really said she hit Jenny, just blitzed her. I agree with what you're saying, but I think it still stands to say she out-sped her.

Originally Posted by Edelheld

That's a lot about Mira's attack but what about Mira's defense? It looks to me she has only speed for that to count.
And about that Gray's attacks will never hit her, we know that Mira is easily distracted by the enemy and loses concentration too fast(Elfman + Eva, Azuma).
And what about her inability to hold her magic for long? Her brother and sister using basically same magic are able to change forms very easily so it's not the flaw of the magic. It looks to me her magic is "rush" oriented and tries to destroy opponent by overwhelming force. But if the enemy is able to withstand that storming attack what will Mira do then?

Good points. We have not much on Mirajane's defence, however from both her brawl with Freed and Azuma, she didn't get slowed down from what we've seen. But yeah, no real beneficial defence feats, which isn't necessarily a problem here because Gray's offensive power and speed to hit her isn't as noteworthy as Mirajane's. As for getting distracted, I'm not sure why - in a battle - Gray would make a tactical maneuver saying he's Lisanna's daughter to distract Mirajane, however if with the assumption he did, well, I guess he could get a hit in with Cold Excalibur - only assuming he hasn't already got it out as his Ice-Make does require build-up time and such. The only time she's really distracted is through her siblings, which aren't really accountable in a battle unless he's taking them hostage.

Anyway, I do agree Mirajane's aim is to overwhelm and destroy her opponents. However, I don't think the enemy will withstand it. Assuming both are at full power and Mirajane hasn't used Satan Soul in the day, we have yet to ever see her lose - or even be on any brink of losing magical power upon her first summon and she shouldn't assume so for Gray. Now, this isn't saying she has unlimited power, but we have to take into account that from what we've seen with Freed, Mary, Azuma and even Jenny that she doesn't stop her attacks, when she's winning (although in the case of Azuma, she got hit a few times from Lisanna and stopped to look at Lisanna). She usually however doesn't stop her attacks until they're pretty much on the ground really.

Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

There isn't such a thing as "half canon", nor is it the reader's decision what to take as canon or not. And the Zentopia incident was defined by one page of 20 others in one chapter and completely without any detail - that does not make the filler canon at all. Twitter doesn't provide much proof either, as it simply didn't appear in the manga.

Originally Posted by WilliamK

Thanks for the reply! Yes, I did mention in my post that Gray's one thing he would almost definitely have over Mirajane is endurance - or at least his determination to keep going, as seen in his fight with Bixlow. However, the problem with the Ultear fight is that she literally discarded using Time Arc and heck, even when they went to hand-to-hand and really just stayed there. Now, Gray's hand-to-hand combat is nothing to laugh at, however it should be noted in the water that he had an unfair advantage both getting the first strike and Ultear stopped flowing for quite a bit giving him time to charge Gungir and "defeat" her, which was more or less Ultear just losing will to battle than actually losing in combat.

Ulltear's advantage of being his master's mislead daughter to be convinced of her wrong path, wasn't unfair? While Gray was pressuring on her so Time Arc became useless based on his fighting skills... Seriously, you should check what to define "inferior" or less relevant.

Originally Posted by WilliamK

I never really said she hit Jenny, just blitzed her. I agree with what you're saying, but I think it still stands to say she out-sped her.

Well, if the hit didn't connect nor left any traces of an impact it can't be taken as proof of her being superior over Gray in general.

Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

Originally Posted by WilliamK

...
1) Good points. We have not much on Mirajane's defence, however from both her brawl with Freed and Azuma, she didn't get slowed down from what we've seen. But yeah, no real beneficial defence feats, which isn't necessarily a problem here because Gray's offensive power and speed to hit her isn't as noteworthy as Mirajane's....
2) Anyway, I do agree Mirajane's aim is to overwhelm and destroy her opponents. However, I don't think the enemy will withstand it. ...

1) As I assumed about Mira's main "rush" tactics, Gray just needs to withstand her burst attack and then catch her by surprise and deliver the final blow. He don't need incredibly strong attack spells for that. And remembering how he easily defended guild masters from Lullaby's attack with his shield those Mira's big blasts don't look that intimidating =)
2) Of course, to prove or disprove my point on that we'll need some Mira's straight words or real fight when she is not frenzied, fillered, weakened by previous fight or fanserviced. And we have a huge lack of that =(
As long as you agrees Mira is not overwhelmingly stronger than Gray and choosing him for the team is at least might be somehow justified not only by the plot needs - I'm happy =)
---
It seems you forgot that it's not about Mira vs. Gray fight, it's about who will benefit to the team more. And here I were about to tell of Gray's versatility, his team-up experience with Natsu and Elsa and so on but judging from all previous fights that tournament was mostly full of ass pull wins and comic reliefs. Tag team fights have shown only one combined attack by Bacchus and Rocker and other tag team fight were not even shown. No tactics, no mind games, just sheer stupid crushing power. So what's the point in all that "teamwork" skills? =(
<I'll go cry now>

Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

Originally Posted by hoeru

There isn't such a thing as "half canon", nor is it the reader's decision what to take as canon or not. And the Zentopia incident was defined by one page of 20 others in one chapter and completely without any detail - that does not make the filler canon at all. Twitter doesn't provide much proof either, as it simply didn't appear in the manga.

I'm sorry, but there is no way you can possibly take the manga saying something along the lines of "because of the recent Zentopia incident, there are so few celestial spirit mages left", together with a picture of the zentopia main base pulled straight from the anime, which is showing a ton of celestial spirit mages being killed or at best completely losing all of their magic and call the filler non-canon.

The point about Twitter was that Mashima was doing the character designs for the filler. He's also written the general plot of the anime filler, but you'd need the cover pages that almost never get translated to prove that.

I don't understand how "Written by the manga author" together with "character designs by the author" and "mentioned in the manga" could possibly result in anything other than it being canon. Obviously he couldn't go into heavy detail about it, because that would make it redundant watching the anime arc at.

Anyway...

Quote:

Ulltear's advantage of being his master's mislead daughter to be convinced of her wrong path, wasn't unfair? While Gray was pressuring on her so Time Arc became useless based on his fighting skills... Seriously, you should check what to define "inferior" or less relevant.

Time Arc didn't become useless. Ultear picked up the idiot ball. If she really wanted to win, she could easily have dispelled Greys spells again because he stopped using blood, and regardless there was absolutely no way he could have used his finishing spell with his own blood. She clearly gave up the fight and let grey win

Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

Originally Posted by hoeru

There isn't such a thing as "half canon", nor is it the reader's decision what to take as canon or not. And the Zentopia incident was defined by one page of 20 others in one chapter and completely without any detail - that does not make the filler canon at all. Twitter doesn't provide much proof either, as it simply didn't appear in the manga.

Sorry, using half-canon is a bad term. But to the contrary to what you think, canon is the reader's decision. "In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base."

Originally Posted by hoeru

Ulltear's advantage of being his master's mislead daughter to be convinced of her wrong path, wasn't unfair? While Gray was pressuring on her so Time Arc became useless based on his fighting skills... Seriously, you should check what to define "inferior" or less relevant.

Well, if the hit didn't connect nor left any traces of an impact it can't be taken as proof of her being superior over Gray in general.

The point was that Mirajane could blitz someone at very least that has the ability of a normal magician (something Jenny is likely above anyway) - something of which isn't common throughout Fairy Tail.

Originally Posted by Edelheld

1) As I assumed about Mira's main "rush" tactics, Gray just needs to withstand her burst attack and then catch her by surprise and deliver the final blow. He don't need incredibly strong attack spells for that. And remembering how he easily defended guild masters from Lullaby's attack with his shield those Mira's big blasts don't look that intimidating =)
2) Of course, to prove or disprove my point on that we'll need some Mira's straight words or real fight when she is not frenzied, fillered, weakened by previous fight or fanserviced. And we have a huge lack of that =(
As long as you agrees Mira is not overwhelmingly stronger than Gray and choosing him for the team is at least might be somehow justified not only by the plot needs - I'm happy =)
---
It seems you forgot that it's not about Mira vs. Gray fight, it's about who will benefit to the team more. And here I were about to tell of Gray's versatility, his team-up experience with Natsu and Elsa and so on but judging from all previous fights that tournament was mostly full of ass pull wins and comic reliefs. Tag team fights have shown only one combined attack by Bacchus and Rocker and other tag team fight were not even shown. No tactics, no mind games, just sheer stupid crushing power. So what's the point in all that "teamwork" skills? =(
<I'll go cry now>

The main problem with Gray finishing someone on Mirajane's level off in a single sweep of attacks is that both his seven-sword dance (often what he uses to attack anyone) and also Gungir both proved ineffective in knocking out Ultear. Anyway, no offence to Lullaby, but it lacks feats and got stomped pretty easily. At least compared to Deliora, it's much more inferior in terms of fighting.

Anyway, whether or not Mirajane stomps Gray or not should be comparable to Erza vs Gray. I don't think either would stomp him, but I do find it questionable that he would defeat either, in my opinion.

I do think he should've been included instead though, as unlike the others, he has wanted to continue fighting in the tournament since Rufus - so at the very least, he has the motivation for this.

Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

Originally Posted by Lozmaster

The point about Twitter was that Mashima was doing the character designs for the filler. He's also written the general plot of the anime filler, but you'd need the cover pages that almost never get translated to prove that.

Neither writing the GENERAL plot nor doing the character designs does make a anime-only plots canon, as the link in the manga is still way too plain and without ANY detail. They stay fillers. Heck the anime itself is completely interpreted from what Mashima created in his manga. Just compare those silly seals that appear in the anime to them not appearing at all in the manga.

Why should be Fairy Tail here any different than other manga with anime adaptions? Because of one page?

Originally Posted by Lozmaster

Obviously he couldn't go into heavy detail about it, because that would make it redundant watching the anime arc at.

Watching an anime adaption is redundant, aside the action in a tv show is changed and violence toned down, and aside from those parts that are anime-only. And anime-only episodes are: Fillers, and fillers aren't canon.

But as you say. Kageyama killing off his comerades in episode 4 is canon, too.

Originally Posted by Lozmaster

Time Arc didn't become useless. Ultear picked up the idiot ball. If she really wanted to win, she could easily have dispelled Greys spells again because he stopped using blood, and regardless there was absolutely no way he could have used his finishing spell with his own blood. She clearly gave up the fight and let grey win

You can't say at all that she still could use Time Arc. She didn't use it until she recovered the Tenrô tree. And as we've seen from Azuma, using Arc magic is risky - and once you overuse it, you lose your life. Ulltear is smart enough not to cross that line, as she likely had to cross that line while fighting Gray.

Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

I'm sorry, but there is no way you can possibly take the manga saying something along the lines of "because of the recent Zentopia incident, there are so few celestial spirit mages left", together with a picture of the zentopia main base pulled straight from the anime, which is showing a ton of celestial spirit mages being killed or at best completely losing all of their magic and call the filler non-canon.

The point about Twitter was that Mashima was doing the character designs for the filler. He's also written the general plot of the anime filler, but you'd need the cover pages that almost never get translated to prove that.

I don't understand how "Written by the manga author" together with "character designs by the author" and "mentioned in the manga" could possibly result in anything other than it being canon. Obviously he couldn't go into heavy detail about it, because that would make it redundant watching the anime arc at.

Plot and characters desgined by the mangaka don't make them canon. That's where the whole discussion about it being filler or not ends. Shiki is a canon OP character, the SW movie is still filler. Hell was named once in the Bleach manga, the characters were designed by Tite, the Hellverse movie and it's depiction of hell are still filler, just as well as the Bounties and Zanpakatou portrayals. Allusions are in no way evidence for something being real in the manga.

Originally Posted by WilliamK

Sorry, using half-canon is a bad term. But to the contrary to what you think, canon is the reader's decision. "In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base."

No it's not the readers decision, I don't know where you got that idea from. e.g. George Lucas decides what's SW canon and what's not, not you, not I, not even the authors of those books expanding on his creation.

Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

Originally Posted by Schabrak

No it's not the readers decision, I don't know where you got that idea from. e.g. George Lucas decides what's SW canon and what's not, not you, not I, not even the authors of those books expanding on his creation.

I'm sorry, but what I gave was a definition from wikipedia. You can go argue with the editors over there if you disagree. Basically, if we really get down to it, it's what determines what is official to the story, which though of course, comes from the mangaka, does not mean work not done by the mangaka isn't canon and work the mangaka does is canon.

Also, this is also irrelevant to the original thread, so I don't understand why you quoted just to talk about filler being canon or not as a debate, because the thread is about magic.

Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

Originally Posted by WilliamK

...
1) The main problem with Gray finishing someone on Mirajane's level off in a single sweep of attacks is that both his seven-sword dance (often what he uses to attack anyone) and also Gungir both proved ineffective in knocking out Ultear. Anyway, no offence to Lullaby, but it lacks feats and got stomped pretty easily. At least compared to Deliora, it's much more inferior in terms of fighting.
2) Anyway, whether or not Mirajane stomps Gray or not should be comparable to Erza vs Gray. I don't think either would stomp him, but I do find it questionable that he would defeat either, in my opinion.
...

1) That's the tactics Gray mostly uses - to wear the enemy and then strike him down. So he don't need super strong attacks. And his defensive abilities do not demand a lot of his power so he can just spam them.
And there is also Ice Cannon thing with the attacks you named. He knocked off Lyon with that one.
2) And why in a world that should be compared to Elsa vs. Gray?

Originally Posted by WilliamK

I'm sorry, but what I gave was a definition from wikipedia. You can go argue with the editors over there if you disagree. Basically, if we really get down to it, it's what determines what is official to the story, which though of course, comes from the mangaka, does not mean work not done by the mangaka isn't canon and work the mangaka does is canon.
Also, this is also irrelevant to the original thread, so I don't understand why you quoted just to talk about filler being canon or not as a debate, because the thread is about magic.
...

Nice way of throwing hoeru and Schabrak off the Fairy Tail's fan base =)
The author decides what's canon in his universe because it's his full creation. If the universe is widespread among many authors and the main author of the universe is dead or don't pay much attention to what is canon then the fan base decide what is canon. Just name one fictional universe in which fan base's word is heavier than author's in deciding canon. I doubt you can.
Hey, don't blame him, you started it when you remembered Mira's attack from anime =)

Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

Originally Posted by Edelheld

1) That's the tactics Gray mostly uses - to wear the enemy and then strike him down. So he don't need super strong attacks. And his defensive abilities do not demand a lot of his power so he can just spam them.
And there is also Ice Cannon thing with the attacks you named. He knocked off Lyon with that one.
2) And why in a world that should be compared to Elsa vs. Gray?

Gray mostly uses? Absolutely not. This was reasonable before, but this is getting lengthy for little reason. From Rayule, to Lyon, to Jubia, he clearly attacks them at the start with clear intention of overwhelming them and in most cases succeeds such as freezing Fukurou's flames, freezing Rayule and exploding. Later on, he continues to do this! Sugarboy? Took him down with his Seven Sword attack. Then even look in Hidden, he didn't bother to "analyze" Nullpudding and attacked him immediately for no reason.
1) Ice canon? Well, that would be funny if that's one of his strongest attacks. It's by all means strong at the start of the series, but I have no clue how he's going to match up to Mira with an attack she could easily dodge with Sitri.
2) Because if it's a stomp against Erza, it's likely a stomp against Mirajane. Even if Erza is stronger than Mirajane, their power would be closer to when compared to the likes of Gray.

Originally Posted by Edelheld

Nice way of throwing hoeru and Schabrak off the Fairy Tail's fan base =)
The author decides what's canon in his universe because it's his full creation. If the universe is widespread among many authors and the main author of the universe is dead or don't pay much attention to what is canon then the fan base decide what is canon. Just name one fictional universe in which fan base's word is heavier than author's in deciding canon. I doubt you can.
Hey, don't blame him, you started it when you remembered Mira's attack from anime =)

Okay, let me get this straight. I blatantly said that if you don't find the anime canon, then it's up to them and to ignore any relevancy of the post towards the anime fight - as in, I will ignore the anime in the debate for them. In other words, I never wanted it to turn into an anime being relevant debate (although it has in other threads), so no, I am not shoving the blame off me, it is there fault for having to side-step the original argument and bring it out into something irrelevant to the thread - something my original post was not as it was outlining Mira's powers in the anime - something a lot of people here find canon and some a lot of people here don't find canon. I normally wouldn't mind this, but you just attacked my character as if I was some evil, cunning manipulator and frankly, since I'm new to Mangahelpers, I don't want to get any type of warning.

Just because the author does something does not mean it's canon. I guess all the cute extra art uniforms like Lucy in a nurse suit is a canon thing she has?
That must also mean the movie is canon and also the side-story of Lucy being a year into Fairy Tail is canon too. Anyway, Mashima has adapated a lot of things from the anime, I've already proved that. Lucy's key designs, Cana's card designs and also Laki's bedroom in Fairy Hills. He's also done a lot of referencing as well. Anyway, as said, just because it's not written by the author doesn't mean it's canon and just because it is, doesn't mean it's true. Now, with that said, you seem to be thinking this to the extreme. Of course what the author writes has a much larger value of anything, but not everything applies. As said, he special of Lucy joining FT a year ago and also Memory Days may not be canon (although I consider it), despite being written by the author.

Anyway, I'm not sure if you think I have something against them? You're definitely wrong if that's the case. I'm not going to judge (or particularly have any opinion) on someone just because they're amidst a debate. I'm debating in the idea that Mirajane is stronger than Gray - something you didn't necessarily agree or disagree to and now you're bringing back the filler stuff. Look, I included it because some people here find it canon. If you don't, then I'll debate without it, that was clearly the intent when bringing up Halphas - because contrary to what you think, a lot of people do find it canon.

Anyway, thanks for also for doing this, despite being aware that it's off-topic. So I will not address the matter publicly outside of discussion over Mirajane's magical power in this thread. If you feel the need to reply, I'll message a reply to you if you're talking just off-topic stuff or reply in the anime thread so we don't get warned.