It is not a mosque. It is a cultural inter-faith centre which happens to include a mosque and probably a prayer-room for Christians too.

I do not know what a 'Conservinsane' is but even if clarified your post makes little sense.

Can you rephrase it perhaps in a way that is more clear?

No.

Thanks for the correction. It is indeed a cultural center with rooms for worship.
It makes the whole discussion even more ridiculous.
Let's regulate where culture and what kind can happen where. We are free.
50% of Americans are Al Qaeda, nice.

"Like President George W. Bush before him, President Obama warned against linking all followers of Islam to terrorists. Al Qaedas cause is not Islam it is a gross distortion of Islam, he rightly said. It is our tolerance of others, he said, that quintessentially American creed, that stands in contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001." @

Said Obama ...." "The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are."

Some among those opposing the mosque have called for official action to block it, but many more recognize that the sponsors of the facility have the Constitution on their side. A Fox News poll yesterday illuminated the divisions."

"Sixty-one percent of voters recognized the right to build the mosque downtown, compared with only 34% who benightedly say otherwise."

"....Obama, who through Robert Gibbs only last week stated that he was not going to comment about the Mosque because he did not want to, get involved in local decision-making, not only got involved but by his remarks and embracing of the Mosque used the Presidency to officially sanction a religion and a religious building which violates the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment of the Constitution.

The Establishment Clause was placed in the Constitution by our Founders to insure that religious freedom would be a protected right of the people, but the Clause also established that the government would not legislate or establish any form of state church or officially sanction the activities or practices of any religion thus keeping the government from involvement in the religious beliefs and practices of the people."

childressp wrote, "The test of a society's values is when adherence is difficult, not when its easy. The Constitution is quite clear here. Banning an Islamic cultural center ..... is impinging on the right of Muslims to practice their religion. We all may not like it, but as I said, the real test is when sticking to our values is difficult."

childressp wrote, "The test of a society's values is when adherence is difficult, not when its easy. The Constitution is quite clear here. Banning an Islamic cultural center ..... is impinging on the right of Muslims to practice their religion. We all may not like it, but as I said, the real test is when sticking to our values is difficult."

"Like President George W. Bush before him, President Obama warned against linking all followers of Islam to terrorists. Al Qaedas cause is not Islam it is a gross distortion of Islam, he rightly said. It is our tolerance of others, he said, that quintessentially American creed, that stands in contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001." @

Said Obama ...." "The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are."

Some among those opposing the mosque have called for official action to block it, but many more recognize that the sponsors of the facility have the Constitution on their side. A Fox News poll yesterday illuminated the divisions."

"Sixty-one percent of voters recognized the right to build the mosque downtown, compared with only 34% who benightedly say otherwise."

"....Obama, who through Robert Gibbs only last week stated that he was not going to comment about the Mosque because he did not want to, get involved in local decision-making, not only got involved but by his remarks and embracing of the Mosque used the Presidency to officially sanction a religion and a religious building which violates the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment of the Constitution.

The Establishment Clause was placed in the Constitution by our Founders to insure that religious freedom would be a protected right of the people, but the Clause also established that the government would not legislate or establish any form of state church or officially sanction the activities or practices of any religion thus keeping the government from involvement in the religious beliefs and practices of the people."

childressp wrote, "The test of a society's values is when adherence is difficult, not when its easy. The Constitution is quite clear here. Banning an Islamic cultural center ..... is impinging on the right of Muslims to practice their religion. We all may not like it, but as I said, the real test is when sticking to our values is difficult."

Both Bush and Obama have iterated weaselwords which speak of "America's tolerance" for Islam, but their administrations' policies (and prior ones) towards the Muslim world are in 180º opposition to such. Anyone who thinks otherwise must be living in cloud cuckoo land. What's the purpose of such a glaring example of cognitive dissonance... and who are they trying to deceive?

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow

Both Bush and Obama have iterated weaselwords which speak of "America's tolerance" for Islam, but their administrations' policies (and prior ones) towards the Muslim world are in 180º opposition to such. Anyone who thinks otherwise must be living in cloud cuckoo land. What's the purpose of such a glaring example of cognitive dissonance... and who are they trying to deceive?

It's quite simple, really. Our "wars" in the Middle East are not about Islam. Never have been.

I'm sure the Muslims in Iran dyeing in the streets protesting for freedom feel great about Obama turning his back to them. And Obama got so much for it too. Fucking brilliant statesman!

There's a lot of dyeing in the streets going on the US too! Don't forget!

And, FJ -- seriously. Where the hell did you get the idea that anyone is dying in the streets of Iran? Glenn Beck? Rush Limbaugh? Stop making shit up. Iranians have a hell of a lot of freedom, and are living fairly well. They are allowed to protest. Christians in Iran are allowed to build churches and worship Jesus. Iran is not what the Republican oil lackeys are trying to make it out to be.

There seems to be some hatred going on just trying to hide behind the constitution as an excuse to play nice.

Nightcrawler

Quote:

Originally Posted by FineTunes

childressp wrote, "The test of a society's values is when adherence is difficult, not when its easy. The Constitution is quite clear here. Banning an Islamic cultural center ..... is impinging on the right of Muslims to practice their religion. We all may not like it, but as I said, the real test is when sticking to our values is difficult."

You missed the point. It's not "they all" it's "we all" may not like it. So all of us as a society are diminished if we do not stand for the right to build the mosque at the site. If we as a society stand for religious freedom, then we can't stop the mosque being built.

The hatred you mention is not being perpetrated by the muslims who want to build the mosque--it comes from many like minded people who are espousing hatred to all muslims. I'm sure that there are muslims here that do not like the US or people of other religions, however, we can't hate a group for the failings of some.

No one is "hiding behind the Constitution". Simply stated: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

I'm sure the Muslims in Iran dyeing in the streets protesting for freedom feel great about Obama turning his back to them. And Obama got so much for it too. Fucking brilliant statesman!

There's a lot of dyeing in the streets going on the US too! Don't forget!

And, FJ -- seriously. Where the hell did you get the idea that anyone is dying in the streets of Iran? Glenn Beck? Rush Limbaugh? Stop making shit up. Iranians have a hell of a lot of freedom, and are living fairly well. They are allowed to protest. Christians in Iran are allowed to build churches and worship Jesus. Iran is not what the Republican oil lackeys are trying to make it out to be.

Yet another case where spell check will not work.

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

How dare you post in a thread so closely related to Ground Zero? Can't you see how insensitive it is for you, a MUSLIM, to post in such a thread? I mean, sure...I guess you COULD post in this thread. But SHOULD you?

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

[url]http://www.nydailynews.com
childressp wrote, "The test of a society's values is when adherence is difficult, not when its easy. The Constitution is quite clear here. Banning an Islamic cultural center ..... is impinging on the right of Muslims to practice their religion. We all may not like it, but as I said, the real test is when sticking to our values is difficult."

You missed the point. It's not "they all" it's "we all" may not like it. So all of us as a society are diminished if we do not stand for the right to build the mosque at the site. If we as a society stand for religious freedom, then we can't stop the mosque being built.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

I didn't miss the point, I think you missed the point that I'm not a US-citizen and I'm a muslim on top..

Then maybe you should have said "all of you or you all" to include all Americans--I'm a US Cit. so you should have included me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

The internets, it's magic.
Nightcrawler

Yes it is and the iPad is magical.

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

The most likely purpose of such widespread publicity of the "intent to build of a mosque" at Ground Zero is to maintain the artificial public perception, fostered by the powers-that-be, with the media in tow, for decades, between Muslims and terrorism. In this case it is most likely to reinforce the publicly perceived connection between 9/11 and Islam. In the absence of hard evidence and the gradual but relentless erosion of the credibility of the original "19 hijackers and Osama bin Laden" conspiracy theory, news items are being manufactured to get the public "back on track". The US corporate media, naturally, are running with this story... surprise surprise.

The weasels and false patriots on the "left" and "right" amongst us will decry such notions and resort to the usual 7th grade "conspiracy theory" knee-jerks/accusations, but when unqualified human beings gain access to too much power, shit happens. Indoctrination/manipulation and dumbing down is one necessary ingredient in the recipe for the "endless war" agenda, into which Americans have (largely unwittingly) invested trillions since WWII.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow

Just to show how full of shit the right is these days...here's a piece from Fareed Zakaria of CNN

The mosque issue is not one of right versus left, much as you try to make it so, or in this case Fareed Zakaria. Matter of fact, I have heard more than a few committed liberal Democrats wanting the mosque planners to relocate. Nevada's Democrat senator and Senate majority leader among them. But just in case you need guidance here, most of the right fully believes in the rights of religious institutions to build where they want to build and locate where they want to locate. That is why New York City has more than 100 mosques and everyone on the right supports every one of those religious institutions. So this issue is not one of religious liberty, nor is it one of right versus left as already stated. Rather, the issue of the Ground Zero mosque is one of tolerance that fanatical Muslims refuse to extend to the families and survivors of 09/11/01 to locate their new 101st Mosque a little farther away from the hole of death made by their followers of jihad.

There are already a few mosques even nearer to ground zero, there is absolutely nothing to be said against a further mosque. The topic is actually very interesting as it laids open the very psychology of the current america with all its bigotry, its hardly hidden hatred, its PC-talk, coming from the right and left.

The question should be "Are churches allowed to be built near ground zero?" or "Are synagogues allowed to be built near ground zero?". If yes, then so should be mosques.

There are muslims living in the area and they want mosques nearby to worship, and the more there are, the more mosques they need as the already existing ones get full pretty quick...

Maybe you should just ban muslims and relocate them from the area in order to prevent them needing mosques there?

I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?

Rather, the issue of the Ground Zero mosque is one of tolerance that fanatical Muslims refuse to extend to the families and survivors of 09/11/01 to locate their new 101st Mosque a little farther away from the hole of death made by their followers of jihad.

First some of the families of 09/11/2001 are in support of the Cordoba or Park 51 Mosque.

Thank you for your post, however if the intent of the Ground Zero mosque, also know as the Park51 project, is one of expanding tolerance toward Islam, and already fully 65-70% of Americans (certainly of New Yorkers), are against the effort, what is to be gained by construction of it if only more ill feelings?

The logic here by mosque/Park51 developers is puzzling... why didn't they re-locate immediately when controversy began? They are, in fact, making more enemies to their cause than friends (if their intent is fostering acceptance to the Islam religion).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

The question should be "Are churches allowed to be built near ground zero?"

According to recent reports, St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, near the former World Trade Center and destroyed on 09/11/01, is not to be rebuilt according to Port Authority of New York! This is despite the wishes of the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church and its congregation!

The Park51 project is described as a mosque by no less than NY Mayor Michael Bloomberg who approved it. So unless Park51 developers plan to abandon its religious tax free status (which they have already invoked), it is and will be a mosque. Moreover, Imam advancing this project already admitted site will be a a place of worship for followers of Islam, which just so happens to be the exact definition of.... mosque!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo

IT'S NOT AT GROUND ZERO.

The surrounding few blocks around the former World Trade Center is considered Ground Zero; so much so that this building (former clothing store) planned for mosque was actually hit with terrorist's plane landing gear. So yes, it's at Ground Zero. Moreover, in a legal sense, insurers of buildings located several blocks from the former World Trade Center have qualified for benefits from the events of 09/11/01 specifically claiming "ground zero" damage, as certified by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, including this mosque site.

Right wingers are usually very quick to invoke the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." And yet, totally fail to ignore that here. That's because the ignorant redneck side of right wingers think that all dem darn dere Islams are de same!

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

According to recent reports, St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, near the former World Trade Center and destroyed on 09/11/01, is not to be rebuilt according to Port Authority of New York! This is despite the wishes of the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church and its congregation!

There should be no reason why St. Nicolas should have any problems being allowed to be rebuilt--where is their support?

''St. Nicholas has nothing to do with this mosque controversy. We believe in religious freedom, and whether the mosque should or shouldn't be there, that's a whole different dialogue," said the Rev. Mark Arey, archdiocese spokesman.
''But it's a rising tide that lifts all boats. People say the mosque has been greenlighted, but why not this church?"

The Park51 project is described as a mosque by no less than NY Mayor Michael Bloomberg who approved it. So unless Park51 developers plan to abandon its religious tax free status (which they have already invoked), it is and will be a mosque. Moreover, Imam advancing this project already admitted site will be a a place of worship for followers of Islam, which just so happens to be the exact definition of.... mosque!

The surrounding few blocks around the former World Trade Center is considered Ground Zero; so much so that this building (former clothing store) planned for mosque was actually hit with terrorist's plane landing gear. So yes, it's at Ground Zero. Moreover, in a legal sense, insurers of buildings located several blocks from the former World Trade Center have qualified for benefits from the events of 09/11/01 specifically claiming "ground zero" damage, as certified by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, including this mosque site.

Its a cultural centre with a prayer room, not a dedicated mosque, and its run by a man paid by the FBI as an advisor on terrorism.

Its two blocks from the former World Trade Centre. Two blocks. The Associated Press, for example, actually made it policy to finish describing it as at.

You got banned for basically anti-Islamic hate speech. You suggested that Muslims were obsessed with virgins because of their sexual hang-ups and you suggested they were dirty. You don't like Muslims. I think you've made that very clear. I dont believe these facts will make a blind bit of difference to you.

Right wingers are usually very quick to invoke the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." And yet, totally fail to ignore that here. That's because the ignorant redneck side of right wingers think that all dem darn dere Islams are de same!

I watched this and also the piece that ran after this. If you didn't catch it it is @

It brings the issue of CAN they or do they have THE RIGHT to build the Park 51, Cordoba Project to an end and focuses on whether they SHOULD. There is no question that they have the right to build the center at the location, but there have been too many arguments about this part, ignoring whether is should be built. Please watch and discuss the issue on this perspective.

無心The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey

It’s a cultural centre with a prayer room, not a dedicated mosque, and it’s run by a man paid by the FBI as an advisor on terrorism.

Explain how it is different than a mosque if it has a prayer room? Do the Muslims allow a Christian cultural center in Saudi Arabia if it simply has a prayer room rather than a formal chapel? If not, why should we allow this? In short, whether or not it is a dedicated or non-decidated mosque makes little difference to the majority of New Yorkers who are against the principal of it so close to Ground Zero, seemingly being planned simply to irritate those survivors and family members of 09/11/01/.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo

It’s two blocks from the former World Trade Centre. Two blocks. The Associated Press, for example, actually made it policy to finish describing it as “at”.

The area of buildings around Ground Zero receiving insurance payments for the events of 09/11/01 extended more than several blocks, thus the definition of Ground Zero includes the location of this planned mosque. The building in question here was hit with a landing gear on 09/11/01./ It is fully within Ground Zero.

Respective to what the politically correct Associated Press (AP) is suggesting, what yould ou prefer to call the location? How about Project Bloomberg?Burlington Coat Factory Landing Gear Cultural Center?The Debris Field Exercise Center? Or 9/11 Victory Athletic Center? Any of those more preferable? How about Ground Zero Mosque and let's ignore the AP's politically correct bias since that is name being used the world over by almost every other media outlet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo

ant-Islamic hate speech.

Democrats and liberals define hate speech as anything against their viewpoint. Same with this issue. Democrats and liberals are labeling anyone against this Ground Zero mosque as bigots even though we have made it clear we have no objection whatsoever to the 100+ other mosques in New York city! Our only objection is the immediacy of this planned mosque to the Ground Zero pit that remains. As I have said from the beginning, if the Muslims had respect at all for the events of 09/11/01 they would relocate this "cultural center," as you allege, elsewhere.

A mosque is like a church crossed with a school. A prayer room is a room where people can say their prayers. So now you know the difference, and you can stop calling this building a mosque, because it isnt a mosque.

Look, you made a post saying that Muslims had sexual hangups which is why they were obsessed with virgins and that they were dirty. All right? So dont come here and pretend your only objection is to the buildings proximity. Youve made it pretty damn clear you hate Muslims and their filthy mosques.

If theres one thing I hate more than a bigot its a bigot who doesnt have the balls to repeat what he actually thinks when hes called on it. Stop wetting your pants and take the scare quotes off the "cultural centre,"

Fair enough but answer my question. To rephrase it so you can answer it, as you may not know the Muslim world extends little tolerance for other religions. Saudi Arabia, for example, does not even allow Christian or Jewish religious institutions! So would they allow a Christian cultural center with a small prayer room? Further, nobody against this Ground Zero Mosque (read cultural centre with a prayer room) is against the more than 100 other mosques in New York City, just this one near Ground Zero.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo

A “mosque” is like a church crossed with a school. A “prayer room” is a room where people can say their prayers. So now you know the difference, and you can stop calling this building a “mosque”, because it isn’t a mosque.

So will you answer the question, would the world of Islam allow a Christian cultural center with a small prayer room and make a distinction from this as opposed to a Christian Church? Is they would not, why should we, so close to Ground Zero?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo

Look, you made a post saying that Muslims had sexual hangups which is why they were obsessed with virgins and that they were dirty. All right? So don’t come here and pretend your only objection is to the building’s proximity. You’ve made it pretty damn clear you hate Muslims and their filthy mosques.

Not true at all. Moreover, I fully support the more than 100 other Muslim places of worship in New York and the larger issue of religious freedom. Additionally, it is clear you misunderstand my prior post but I'll accept the poor understanding. To rephrase, I am not against the world of Islam or Muslims. Specifically, it is just this cultural center, as you insist it be called, that I find objectionable so close to Ground Zero... Moreover, since far more than half the U.S. population, and far more New Yorkers, appose this cultural center, there is room for debate here beyond supporters of the cultural center to call those opposed to it bigots!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo

If there’s one thing I hate more than a bigot it’s a bigot who doesn’t have the balls to repeat what he actually thinks when he’s called on it. Stop wetting your pants and take the scare quotes off the "cultural centre,"

If you insist on calling it a cultural center, then its primary mission, that of engendering support for Islam, has already failed, due to the ill will this cultural center has already caused, even before a single thing has been built. So where is the tolerance, as you might suggest, for the victims of 09/11/01 and the survivors, by those building the cultural center?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo

IIt's a cultural centre.

If it makes you happy to so define it as such, I'll accept that definition from you, in the spirit of greater understanding, provided, of course, you can assure me that the world of Islam would accept the construction of a like Christian cultural center, in say, Mecca or Medina... However, since I am sure, they would not, and indeed they would properly call such a Christian "cultural center" a Church, as it rightfully would be, so will I. Lastly, when the New York Planning Commission referred to the Cordoba House Project with a mosque nobody seemed to mind; references to mosque were frequent in the media during planning with no objection. Why the objection now?

Most reasonable Americans are now saying that the 'Move The Mosque' proposal is the most reasonable alternative acceptable. Will you accept this solution as the most agreeable compromise?