Skepticism

EVENTS

Who are these guys?

Hey, we added a couple of male bloggers here…I thought we were supposed to be man-hatin’ banshee feminists? It’s surprising but true, though, that some people with a Y chromosome and a penis can actually care about social justice. Say howdy to Ally Fogg and our very newest addition, Tauriq Moosa, who helpfully explains how to pronounce his name in his first post.

The front page is getting a major overhaul, which could be released any day now. It will include more recent articles from each blog, and be organized by category. We’re just waiting for our tech guy to finish it!

Ally Fogg’s blog reads more like an MRA blog than anything else. “Female privilege”, “cultural misandry”, “crimes against women are viewed as gender crimes but crimes against men are not”. Even Sharon Osbourne laughing about that one guy getting his penis bitten off. My red flags are way, way up. Won’t be reading that guy.

A SEVERE need for greater male representation arises at the FtB’s, and suddenly, “Wala!!!”

You’re not serious, are you? A severe need for male representation? I know FTB is better than most places for giving volume to female voices, but there’s still more men than women (though not by much, I think).

Ally Fogg’s blog reads more like an MRA blog than anything else. “Female privilege”, “cultural misandry”, “crimes against women are viewed as gender crimes but crimes against men are not”. Even Sharon Osbourne laughing about that one guy getting his penis bitten off. My red flags are way, way up.

Yup. And just like most MRAs his whole schtick is claiming to be some superheroic champion of poor oppressed boys. Not by quietly working with disadvantaged youth or teaching men how to be genuinely decent human beings or anything like that. No, it’s all about whining on, in an ever so “reasonable and non-dogmatic” way, about the evil misandrist women and the horrors of feminism and how his precious man-feelings are all hurt and how that’s what women should be expending all their efforts on.

General: Also, having just read Ally Fogg’s latest post, I’m wondering whether any of the people suspecting him of being an MRA have done so. He discusses privilege, how the fact you don’t see your own privilege might be why the MRAs are so angry, intersectionality, intersectionality as it relates to men, and “Patriarchy hurts men too”; and self-describes as a feminist. I fail to see the MRA credentials, at least in that post. It looked like he had some interesting ideas.

Ally’s doing a reasonable job of pointing out some fairly basic stuff in a way that doesn’t seem to put the usual suspects’ backs up. He occasionally meanders into their familiar territory but seems to find his way out without too much difficulty. I may not be a fan, but I’m willing to suspend judgement until I see more that tells me he’s not worth any attention.

I was opining on his “whole schtick”. And even if not, why is a link to his other writing unacceptable to you ?

(Did you really not mean to respond to that which you quoted?)

Did I accidentally write a response ? No, I meant to write a response. Or are you saying that if someone quotes part of a previous post that they must not offer any other follow-on thoughts other than … what exactly ??

He does so in another of his posts (I’ve been reading a few of them). I was unaware he had previously denied an association, but he appears to have contradicted himself.

He appears to be focussing mainly on PHMT, though he does not call it that insisting instead that it is misandry and actually explaining that position rather well. He disagrees with the traditional notion that misogyny and misandry are opposing forces but instead sees them as oppressive forces working in paralell, reinforced mainly by culturally-defined gender roles.

He’s got some interesting ideas, not alligned perfectly with the mainstream opinions on Pharyngula but I think supportive of them; certainly not hostile or opposed to them. I see absolutely no reason to label him an MRA.

If we’re going to fight for social justice, we have to support justice for everyone, including men. The MRAs have so poisoned the discourse that it’s becoming hard to imagine someone who can argue against injustices against men — they do exist! — without taking a great big stinky shit on women. Give him a chance–Fogg seems to be doing a good job of avoiding the trap of thinking that trashing women is the way to correct men’s problems.

PZ, I don’t think the reason people aren’t digging Ally’s blog is because he’s a man. I don’t think not liking his blog suggests that anyone wants to exclude men from social justice. I don’t think anyone is denying injustice toward men either. Please, don’t do that.

I don’t think that’s what PZ is saying. I think he’s implying that because Ally Fogg focusses on men’s issues some people are assuming he’s an MRA when this isn’t the case. Assuming I’ve understood that correctly, I think that’s exactly what’s happening. I think people are seeing a few of the same buzzwords thrown around by MRAs and assuming Ally Fogg is one of them without taking the time to realise he is merely dealing with the patriarchy from a man’s perspective and not ” taking a great big stinky shit on women”.

I think the problem is the use of MRA buzzwords. The meaning of “misandry”, as set by those who commonly use it, is not “patriarchal abuse of men”, but “oppression/hate of men by women”. Ally Foog is going to have an uphill struggle trying to be understood on the same level.

He does take pains to define it in the threads I’ve read dealing with the subject.

Anyway, my point Is I think people are being a bit hasty. He’s not the Pharyngula flavour of feminist, but I certainly wouldn’t say he’s an MRA and he has some very interesting opinions. He is new, so this isn’t a final judgement, but I think he’ll be worth reading.

I’ve read most of Ally Fogg’s posts so far, and while they make for interesting reading that has made me think, I’ve also seen him be a bit lazy in his (few, so far) references to how Feminists Are Doin It Wrong. In his post about male disposability in the military and the history of war, he claimed that (non-defined) feminists’ “solution” to the problem of a gendered military was to fight for the right of women to join the military and to either end male conscription or have equal conscription. He then characterized this as obscene, rightly pointing out that it is horrible for anyone to have to fight and die.

It is horrible for anyone to have to fight and die, even when that’s part of their job. But opening up the military as a career option for women and ending the sexist male conscription are not actions intended to eliminate war and combat. I felt it was lazy of Fogg to say so, or at least imply.

Also, it is in fact pronounced with [v]. The closest English approximation to the oi diphthong happens to be “wah”, so apparently lots of Americans end up with a [vw] cluster and drop the [v]… but that’s not how it works in the original French.

I’ve read a fair bit of Fogg’s stuff so far, and from what I can tell, he uses a lot of MRA buzzwords and talking points, explains to feminists how we’re doing it wrong (thanks d00d, I’ll take that under advisement), and thinks “female privilege” is a thing. It’s walking, quacking and shitting like a duck. Oh good, I was hoping for the exciting sequel to Thunderd0uche.

Yeeeeeeaah…I remember Ally Fogg from a couple of years ago on CiF, before I left that festering den of misogyny for good (I’m from the UK too, so our cultural context was the same). His spots, they are…fainter? I think it’s concealer, folks.

I see that on his new blog he’s got all the standard MRA talking points, presented in a reasonable tone: ‘misandry is a thing because Sharon Osborne, more men commit suicide than women, conscription is like forced birth,’ etc. Along with some slightly twisted stuff: ‘female privilege insulates women from an awareness of how patriarchy hurts men’? (Nope, feminist women are usually pretty clued up on how it sucks to live as a man in a culture of violent machismo which is both the benchmark and the consequence of failing to live up to it. This reality, we are familiar with it and agree that it is deplorable.)

I really like FtB and read a couple of the blogs on a daily basis (no plans to stop, no flounce planned whatsoever) but…Ally Fogg is not, to me, a welcome addition.

Yeeeeeeaah…I remember Ally Fogg from a couple of years ago on CiF, before I left that festering den of misogyny for good

This is more or less my context too. That and some of the old (mostly now defunct) UK feminist blogs where he used to comment as well. Maybe the folks in this thread who haven’t had any experience with this bloke, and for whatever reason are being all starry-eyed about the new boy, could at the very least acknowledge that there are some of us who have already come across his speel and sussed him out a long time ago.

No, it’s all about whining on, in an ever so “reasonable and non-dogmatic” way, about the evil misandrist women and the horrors of feminism and how his precious man-feelings are all hurt and how that’s what women should be expending all their efforts on.

Contrast the above with this:

Those, primarily, are not questions for women/feminists to address, but for men. We’re not only the ones who sit on the receiving end, we are also often the ones doling it out to others.

And this:

I don’t call on feminism to solve men’s problems for us. I do assert a need for the essential intellectual space and terminology to address them ourselves.

He seems to have changed his tune. Don’t get me wrong; he writes some facepalm worthy things sometimes, many of which sound just reasonable enough to be plausible until you actually think about it. But I don’t see him trying to redirect feminism towards his own pet issues.