If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

Beer is the staple of my diet during the fasting periods. Thank God for liquid bread, and thank God that I was received by the Serbs.

I would have ended the first sentence after the word 'diet'. Ha!

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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

I thank god I do not need to ask the honourable priesthood and the (sub)diaconate in Christ as to what to eat or drink.

Here's some more attention Too Cool For School.

Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home. But over here, it seems, Orthodoxy is a hyper-clericalized sect. we also had priests that never encouraged this aberrant behaviour.

Just curious... where are you from?

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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.

This thread also reminds me of another topos of American Orthodoxy: the Evangelical-turned -Orthodox discovers that now he can have a beer and never stops talking about it. The Ochlophobist was able to put this better, AFAIR.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.

This thread also reminds me of another topos of American Orthodoxy: the Evangelical-turned -Orthodox discovers that now he can have a beer and never stops talking about it. The Ochlophobist was able to put this better, AFAIR.

My tradition never said I couldn't have beer. I was referring to some other southern baptist traditions that I work with from time to time. I posted this thread right after I was dealing with some of those people and was sort of posting out of frustration. I have never believed that alcohol was bad for the Christian.

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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

No more gross than any other kind of beer. Now rum... that at least has a good base to start from. If only alcohol didn't make me sick nowadays...

Speaking of rum, I need a new bottle of Kraken.

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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

Timon,I like a good beer too. But I have a question. Are you sure you are not looking for a God that lets you do what you want? If it was proven that the Southern Baptists were right, and that drinking was a sin in the eyes of God, would you walk away from it?

Timon,I like a good beer too. But I have a question. Are you sure you are not looking for a God that lets you do what you want? If it was proven that the Southern Baptists were right, and that drinking was a sin in the eyes of God, would you walk away from it?

Of course I would. Again, I have never believed it to be a sin in the eyes of God. Neither did my tradition. I posted this out of frustration because I heard a guy say "if I see you with alcohol, I'll punch you inter face." this was in a southern baptist setting. Never did I say, "oh wow! Orthodox people are ok with alcohol! I should convert!"

As a former Protestant, I can affirm that the majority of people in my tradition are more than happy to sip a tasty brew. I'm certainly not trying to do whatever I want.

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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.

This thread also reminds me of another topos of American Orthodoxy: the Evangelical-turned -Orthodox discovers that now he can have a beer and never stops talking about it. The Ochlophobist was able to put this better, AFAIR.

As I recall he enjoyed talking about micro-breweries a lot at one stage in his hipsterdom. Then I guess he became too cool to talk about them anymore.

And you like talking so much about girls... are you an ex-Shaker or something?

« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 09:35:14 PM by Iconodule »

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"A riddle or the cricket's cryIs to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Reminds me of the Prohibition in the 1920's. Growing up in NYC. I heard many stories about those times and it seems that among all the ethnic groups like the Irish, Italians, Poles. etc there was no support and even opposition to this experiment that was attributed to puritanical protestants. For one, the Roman Catholic Church actually opposed Prohibition and I am sure that the Orthodox ignored it and kept drinking. Breaking the law and consuming alcohol may have been a crime but it was never a "sin". I have never attended any social or organization function at an Orthodox church where alcohol was not present is one form or the other or in many forms. It will be interesting to see the upcoming TV special on Prohibition.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.

This thread also reminds me of another topos of American Orthodoxy: the Evangelical-turned -Orthodox discovers that now he can have a beer and never stops talking about it. The Ochlophobist was able to put this better, AFAIR.

As I recall he enjoyed talking about micro-breweries a lot at one stage in his hipsterdom. Then I guess he became too cool to talk about them anymore.

And you like talking so much about girls... are you an ex-Shaker or something?

Reminds me of the Prohibition in the 1920's. Growing up in NYC. I heard many stories about those times and it seems that among all the ethnic groups like the Irish, Italians, Poles. etc there was no support and even opposition to this experiment that was attributed to puritanical protestants. For one, the Roman Catholic Church actually opposed Prohibition and I am sure that the Orthodox ignored it and kept drinking. Breaking the law and consuming alcohol may have been a crime but it was never a "sin". I have never attended any social or organization function at an Orthodox church where alcohol was not present is one form or the other or in many forms. It will be interesting to see the upcoming TV special on Prohibition.

=> First, I remember neat old guy whose son went on to become a Presbyterian minister telling us how his fraternity at Dartmouth made bathtub gin during Prohibition. Also, I don't remember the New England Puritan colony(ies) ever instituting any kind of 'prohibition'.

=> I would say that arrogantly defying an otherwise acceptable civil law, even if you don't like it, is sin.

Reminds me of the Prohibition in the 1920's. Growing up in NYC. I heard many stories about those times and it seems that among all the ethnic groups like the Irish, Italians, Poles. etc there was no support and even opposition to this experiment that was attributed to puritanical protestants. For one, the Roman Catholic Church actually opposed Prohibition and I am sure that the Orthodox ignored it and kept drinking. Breaking the law and consuming alcohol may have been a crime but it was never a "sin". I have never attended any social or organization function at an Orthodox church where alcohol was not present is one form or the other or in many forms. It will be interesting to see the upcoming TV special on Prohibition.

=> First, I remember neat old guy whose son went on to become a Presbyterian minister telling us how his fraternity at Dartmouth made bathtub gin during Prohibition. Also, I don't remember the New England Puritan colony(ies) ever instituting any kind of 'prohibition'.

=> I would say that arrogantly defying an otherwise acceptable civil law, even if you don't like it, is sin.

It's not an otherwise acceptable law. Outlawing alcohol is apostasy, plain and simple. All that's left is one "there is not God but Allah" and you're a Moslem.

Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics; [...] For [Paul] does not simply say, “use a little wine;” but having said before, “drink no longer water,” he then brings forward his counsel as to the drinking of wine. And this expression “no longer” was a manifest proof, that till then he had drunk water, and on that account was become infirm. But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all, in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city [i.e., blaspheming against God by saying that wine is evil.]. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God. -Homilies on the Statues 1,7

Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics; [...] For [Paul] does not simply say, “use a little wine;” but having said before, “drink no longer water,” he then brings forward his counsel as to the drinking of wine. And this expression “no longer” was a manifest proof, that till then he had drunk water, and on that account was become infirm. But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all, in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city [i.e., blaspheming against God by saying that wine is evil.]. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God. -Homilies on the Statues 1,7

Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics; [...] For [Paul] does not simply say, “use a little wine;” but having said before, “drink no longer water,” he then brings forward his counsel as to the drinking of wine. And this expression “no longer” was a manifest proof, that till then he had drunk water, and on that account was become infirm. But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all, in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city [i.e., blaspheming against God by saying that wine is evil.]. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God. -Homilies on the Statues 1,7

Love this.

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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics; [...] For [Paul] does not simply say, “use a little wine;” but having said before, “drink no longer water,” he then brings forward his counsel as to the drinking of wine. And this expression “no longer” was a manifest proof, that till then he had drunk water, and on that account was become infirm. But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all, in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city [i.e., blaspheming against God by saying that wine is evil.]. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God. -Homilies on the Statues 1,7

And that's the ball game.....

PP

« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 12:33:52 PM by primuspilus »

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

While I'm not Orthodox, I'm thinking of becoming Orthodox, perhaps, one day.... That said, I can't speak for Orthodoxy, and I don't claim my personal use (or lack thereof) of alcohol is the 'Christian' view, I must confess that I myself am a teetotalist, and with the exception of wine at the Holy Communion, I will not drink alcohol. While I do not see alcoholic beverages as something bad in themselves, I personally feel that there is something very wrong in the way many modern people, and certainly in my own country (the U.S.) view alcohol. They seem to be using it, not simply to 'merry the heart', and certainly not for taste but to fill a void inside of them. And as such, it all to often seems to lead to one abuse or another. I'm not disagreeing with St. John Chrysostom, mind you, but from my own experiences with alcohol in the lives of people around me and in the present age, I had to come to a personal conclusion not to encouraging alcoholic consumption by consuming it myself, or by any other means. Even if I join the Orthodox church, I would like to continue to uphold this personal conviction for myself (assuming it won't make me a heretic)... it's something I've done since before I was a even Christian. I've never been drunk or buzzed or 'made merry', and I think I'm doing just fine. At the very least I know I don't need to lubricate my life with alcohol in order to unwind and deal with social situations. Forcing myself to never employ such a device (or crutch) has taught me to deal with things without it. The fact that many cannot is why I am not using it.

Now, I'm not saying this is how everyone else should be. It is, admittedly, a personal conviction, and not something I am mistaking for the definitive Christian stance, and I won't go around preaching it or judging others because of it. All of my friends drink alcohol and they know my way of treating it and that I do not think less of them. Nevertheless I confess that down inside I do feel as St. Paul a desire for others to 'be as I am', but alas, oh well.

While I'm not Orthodox, I'm thinking of becoming Orthodox, perhaps, one day.... That said, I can't speak for Orthodoxy, and I don't claim my personal use (or lack thereof) of alcohol is the 'Christian' view, I must confess that I myself am a teetotalist, and with the exception of wine at the Holy Communion, I will not drink alcohol. I personally feel that there is something very, very, VERY wrong...heinously so...in the way that modern people view alcohol. They seem to be using it, not simply to 'merry the heart', but to fill a void inside of them. And as such, in usually seems to lead to abuse. As such, I won't have any part in encouraging alcoholic consumption, by consuming it myself, or by any other means. Even if I join the Orthodox church, I will likely continue to uphold my personal conviction... it's something I've had since before I was a even Christian. I've never been drunk, never even slightly buzzed, and you know what, I'm doing just fine. I don't need to lubricate my life with alcohol in order to unwind and deal with social situations. Forcing myself to never employ such a device (or crutch) has taught me to deal with things the natural way, in a normal and undiluted state of consciousness.

Now, I'm not saying this is how everyone else should be. It is, admittedly, a personal conviction, and not something I am mistaking for the definitive Christian stance, and I won't go around preaching it. Nevertheless I must confess that down inside I do feel as St. Paul a desire for others to 'be as I am', but alas, oh well.

That would be fine. I even know some Romanians whose only alcohol consumption would come with Eucharist (not many, for sure, and mostly because of some sort of history with alcoholism - either theirs or a loved ones). As long as you don't expect everyone else to follow your lead there'll be no issue whatsoever. If you're ever at a Romanian agape meal, though - expect to be offered wine. I usually turn it down because I have a 40 minute drive after DL to get home, but I do occasionally have a small sip, particularly if it's a major feast.

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

don't worry, armchair theologian, you can join the coptic orthodox church, most of us don't drink.i do have a sip occasionally with my friends (hope my priest is not reading this...) but generally i avoid it.

PLEASE tell me that the Orthodox church isnt like all these southern baptist churches i work with who think if you ever drink alcohol you will burn in hell.

I mean, I realize you shouldnt get drunk, but whats wrong with a Guinness every now and then? Or an awesome IPA? Maybe a glass of wine with my wife?

Im pretty sure nothing is wrong with these things, but is there any specific church teaching on the matter?

When I led a tour group to Greece with some Lutherans, we had a pre-tour dinner at my Orthodox church. The Lutheran one didn't allow alcohol (except for communion), whereas the Orthodox church kept wine glasses in the kitchen.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

I associate wine with Orthodoxy. Zapivka, great feasts, Serbian tradition of Slave, while the drinking of red wine (as a symbol of Martyrs' Blood) - toasts - is connected with prayer and repentance...

But if somebody don't want to drink alcohol, that's good. There is always a danger of becoming an alcoholic. But that's also the reason why fasting in the Orthodox way is so good: I perceive the day "no-wine" as "no-alcohol" at all

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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

I associate wine with Orthodoxy. Zapivka, great feasts, Serbian tradition of Slave, while the drinking of red wine (as a symbol of Martyrs' Blood) - toasts - is connected with prayer and repentance...

But if somebody don't want to drink alcohol, that's good. There is always a danger of becoming an alcoholic. But that's also the reason why fasting in the Orthodox way is so good: I perceive the day "no-wine" as "no-alcohol" at all

For us no wine means no alcohol too. I'd always heard that the 'liquid bread' attitude to beer was a Slav thing, though, so it's interesting that you don't share it.

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Beer is forbidden during the Fast. Whiskey is okay. Fasting is supposed to "strengthen your spirits"

I think this depends on your tradition. My understanding is that the Russians would disagree with you about beer being forbidden.

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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

I associate wine with Orthodoxy. Zapivka, great feasts, Serbian tradition of Slave, while the drinking of red wine (as a symbol of Martyrs' Blood) - toasts - is connected with prayer and repentance...

But if somebody don't want to drink alcohol, that's good. There is always a danger of becoming an alcoholic. But that's also the reason why fasting in the Orthodox way is so good: I perceive the day "no-wine" as "no-alcohol" at all

For us no wine means no alcohol too. I'd always heard that the 'liquid bread' attitude to beer was a Slav thing, though, so it's interesting that you don't share it.

James

Yes, that's Slav thing, but although my 2 nationalities are Slav, I don't follow this let's say, "custom' of drinking other alcohols during fasting periods.I perceive wine as "holier" (I can't find appropriate word) than other alcohols - I mean it was sanvtificated because this drink was chosen by Christ to be His Blood, also His first miracle is connected with wine. So, if such kind of alcohol is prohibited on particular day, why I could drink beer? Alcohol stills being alcohol, doesn't matter if it's wine or beer, they work in the same day. I don't drink alcohol during fasting days (at least during these 4 great fasts) at all, because after it I think a bit more differently, I have more entertaining mood etc. I link drinking alcohol with feasts or parties. And for me one of the most beautiful moments in the year are these ones, when I drink wine after the period of abstinence e.g. Pascha, Nativity.

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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria