Dungeons & Newbie DM’s

There’s been a lot of chatter in the online D&D community about dungeons. Some present the argument that dungeons are a very important part of the game, while others make the argument that Dungeons are so far removed from a players real world experience that they cripple role-playing. As always, I look at this from a very practical side, and from the point of view of a newbie DM, and I think that dungeons are a tremendously important part of the game and a wonderful place to get a group of newbies started on their journey. I’ll tell you newbie DM’s out there why that is.

First, the point must be stated that the game is called Dungeons and Dragons and not Beaches and Dragons or Prairies and Dragons. There, I said it. I know that the game can take place in whatever scenario you want, but arguing about a place as iconic as a dungeon, in a game that carries the word dungeon in its name seems like heresy to me. Okay, so why do I think that dungeons are so great for new DM’s? Well, they keep your players grounded in a contained setting, while providing the ever important illusion of choice you so desperately need to make your game successful.

This has been written about countless number of times, in countless books and blog posts. There is nothing original in stating that all a dungeon does is provide a flowchart of adventure choices for your party. That’s really it, that’s their function.

“You come to a stop, you can go left or right.” As a new DM, this type of simplicity is invaluable.

When you are starting out as a DM, there are several things you would most likely want to avoid happening in your game, including:

Players going off your planned storyline

Encounter areas becoming to large and unwieldy for practical use at a table

Players exploring places you haven’t detailed just yet

All these things can be avoided by setting your starting adventures in a dungeon. Think of the dungeon as a newbie tutorial in a video game, where you learn to control all the powers and abilities that your character in the game has.

The dungeon is the same thing, but for a DM.

In the dungeon you can can craft a simple storyline for your players (find the talisman of Garen the Mage)

In the dungeon you can have encounter areas that are easy to map and run at the table without much stress

In the dungeons players will explore only what you’ve detailed (assuming the entire dungeon is detailed)

And again, all this is done with players never realizing that their choice are in fact limited, but by the nature of where they are and not by their DM. And you can then worry about honing in on the skills you need, while providing an iconic D&D experience for your players.

And what about role-playing being crippled by the setting? Well, my dear Sarah Darkmagic, I call shenanigans. 🙂 A couple of good descriptions, and speaking to all 5 senses will give players enough of a cue to understand where they are and how to interact with that environment. “The dungeon smells musky, you can hear the slow drip of water just behind this door. If it wasn’t for the fluttering fire from your torches, you’d be in the dark. Suddenly, you feel rats quickly passing over your feet. They’re coming from the south, perhaps running away from something?”

And what of an experienced DM? Well, at that point you’ve realized that dungeons are a word only, and the concept of “the dungeon” in context of play can be applied to any setting. But that’s an article for another time. 🙂

That’s the essence of it for me: there’s only so many places you can go. It prevents having to plan for every eventuality on the DM side, and less likely to be crippled by choice on the player side. You don’t necessarily want those every time, but for those times you do, a well-made dungeon hits the spot.

I would hope that the dungeon delve never goes out of style in D&D, or I think the game will lose some of the magic, and I don’t mean to pun here. I’m surprised that the idea “Dungeons are so far removed from a players real world experience that they cripple role-playing” could even be considered, given the number of movies that have used and continue to use dungeon delves as part of the heroic experience. Indiana Jones (et al), The Mummy, LotR I & III, Harry Potter (and others too numerous to mention)- these all feature the hero going down into a dark labyrinthian place and dodging traps to gain treasure, fame, knowledge, or sometimes the damsel in distress. How can such an experience be far removed from players when Hollywood throws dungeon delves in our faces in almost every movie sci-fi and fantasy fan-boys ans fan-girls would care to watch? I think someone is way over-thinking the fun here, and there’s only one good remedy for such addle-pated philosophizing – a good swift kick!

I would actually go so far as to say the Dungeon is just a framework, a flowchart and that every adventure is in a dungeon even if it doesn’t take place in 10foot wide corridors underground.

Your players start in the kings court and are given a mission stop the orcs raiding from the south. This first room is huge, it’s an entire city where the players gather up their resources. Then the party heads down the first corridor as they travel out of town to the south. There’s a T-section. Do they stop in the small village outside of town to gather more supplies or find out info or do they continue down the road to The Haunted Forest. Reaching the haunted forest you have a more traditional dungeon except the walls are made of trees, it’s like an entire dungeon in our bigger dungone. After surviving the forest the party comes to the crossroads. Do they take door A, B, C or D. A happens to be continuing down the road, out in the open where they will be seen aproaching. B happens to be taking the river route which runs through the Orc village, a chance to supprise the orcs and maybe a cool water based encounter. C happens to be the Rolling Hills, less chance of getting spotted then the road but well defended at the Orc Camp. D is the superheroic option, get captured by the orcs as a way to break into their camp.

That’s just a really quick, off the top of my head quest that still plays out the exact same as a dungeon, but isn’t actually ‘in a dungeon at all’. It’s not all about the stone walls, rats and musty odor.

I totally agree, and even mentioned on my site, that I think dungeons can be good for new DMs. Although I didn’t do a good job conveying it, the main thrust of my arguments is that some dungeons, particularly classically created dungeons that lack any sense of logic, can be difficult for some new players, at least they are to me. Not every table has a DM good at description. Not every player has the background needed to visualize a dungeon, or at least it takes him more effort to immerse himself in that world than it does something with a bit more familiarity. Not every table has a DM who can create a good dungeon and there are so many bad dungeons out there. Particularly for those tables, it might help to come out of the traditional dungeon and run a different sort of game. Just like it’s not fair to judge the dungeon on the failings of some of the players, it’s not fair to players who have a hard time with dungeons to limit their experience to them. So I’m not quite sure what is wrong with suggesting that perhaps for some groups maybe the dungeons part of Dungeons & Dragons should fade to the background.

You’re absolutely correct that a more experience DM will realize that dungeons can be made anywhere, not just underground. My favorite dungeons are towns.

Dungeons are good, but in small doses. Give too much dungeon and you’ve got the dreaded “dungeon crawl” where you’re just going from room to room to room to room and wondering why the heck you’re bothering with it. Many of the early 4e modules, like Keep on the Shadowfell and Pyramid of Shadows received low reviews because they suffered from this, but with some modification and shortening can usually be made to be more enjoyable.

To give a video game analogy, I think that the Elder Scrolls games got it right. Sure, you can go explore an ancestral tomb or some Daedric ruins, but it usually takes between 10-30 minutes to explore the whole thing, after which you happily go back to town with stuff to sell in order to help you finish your quests. The Zelda games have more old-school dungeons, but it can get away with longer ones (about an hour or two) by having lots of interesting and fun puzzles. Still, everyone remembers how much they hated the Water Temple because it just took way too long to get through it. Don’t make your dungeon like the Water Temple!

In D&D game terms, I would say for most dungeons one session is perfect, or two max. Sure, for a one shot you can have it completely in the dungeon (and this would be more than appropriate for a newbie dm’s first game, although I’d encourage him to diversify into something more imaginative for his second game). Maybe the climax of your campaign is a three-session infiltration of the BBEG’s massive dungeon. But any more than that any you’re just trying the patience of your players and making them wonder if any reward is really worth slogging through endless rooms.

I was actually looking for a conversion rule for spell casting times from D&D v3.5 (Immediate, Swift, Standard), to AD&D 1e (Segments) when I read your post (from Chatty’s blog).

I am a newbie, a re-virgin, after putting down my AD&D books nearly 25 years ago. And typically, it’s me who has to DM if I am going to play. Ah-well so-be-it. Only I am using v3.5 and yearning for AD&D. In fact, I am constantly grabbing d6 for initiative, while my players gape at me, despite reading the core rules 2 times already. Old habits habituate. I would equip everyone with AD&D 1e books but I blew my lunch money on v3.5. (Anyone can help me with my side quest here I would certainly appreciate it.)

So I want to comment on one more reason dungeons are important. I have players from the respawning WoW tradition; RPGers used to starting at levels 6 – 10. I have them start at level 1 because I ain’t going to blow my brains out memorizing. ‘sides, starting at level 1 allows us all to progress together. (At a 1000 XP it is already ridiculous-easy to level up.)

I do not know about other DM’s worlds but I not only roll random encounters but also use a terrain table (not a level table) to determine what is lurking where. If the level-1 party walks around in Black Dragon country, they may meet one. TPK. And this is important to my world, to the plot line, and to the feeling of reality. It also keeps down the hero population so that PCs at level 6 actually do stand out because they survive.

Now a dungeon is imperative for beginning level characters. Given the choice of venturing into Count Dracula’s Hotel of Horrors or recovering a sign from a warband of Goblins, it is up to the PCs to pick their path to adventure in. I can kill them without a sweat inside the Hotel. I really do not even need the monster worksheets. Likewise: the angry Black Dragon vs. the wandering aimless party. The Goblin group holed-up inside the ruin is another matter. They need to be prepared ahead of time.

The dungeon IS the adventure of choice for starting characters, IMHO. They might all get killed once inside but at least the odds are better. Starting level PC better go with the odds if not with gods.

Very well put and good points throughout the post. On the last part about good description and appealing to the 5 senses, my big brainstorm lately has been for immersion in the sense of putting the characters in your game directly INTO the essence of the setting. The example I use is that a character standing on the edge of a cliff is one thing, but a character hanging on for their life over the edge of the cliff is another – and I believe the difference is felt in the player. That’s what I mean with the term immersion, so maybe at one point the players become trapped in a cave-in or prison cell in the dungeons and really FEEL the ideas that they are underground, in a confined space, with limited options for movement and as a result limited options for survival as well.

From then on, you could also refer back to those moments of confinement and make them feel those same feelings all over again. “This hallway is only slightly bigger than the cell you were confined to earlier.” I’ve only had a chance to try this method a handful of times, but I think it should work pretty well in practice!

While I agree wholeheartedly here, I disagree that dungeons as viable RP destinations as shenanigans is a little too much.
People have eked every bit of meaning from the term role-play, but it effectively comes down to the experience of portraying a character. If we break RP into components, we have:
1) Portrayal of a character in terms of their environment
2) Portrayal of a character in terms of their allies and close friend
3) Portrayal of a character in terms of their enemies
4) Portrayal of a character in terms of strangers and “human resources”

The more traditional dungeon pits the players against the denizens of the labyrinth. While there may be moments of NPC interactions more than “I apply my plank of steel to the fiend’s medula oblongata”, they’re the exception, not the rule. (4) is definitely more of an urban thing – places where you can safely assume that the person you meet by accident is not about to make you roll initiative.
So I agree: dungeons are important. They give a physical parallel to the railroad that is invaluable and fun. But if you have actor-players in your party, people who want meaningful friendly NPC interactions, you might find dungeons leaving them wanting.

Second – Where did you get that image? I dropped by the site, but it’s just an archive of software.

I’d be real handy to have similar images of various types of corridors and intersection and doorways to hand/show to players (with the understanding it’s just for atmosphere more than accuracy). Game maps are okay, but they don’t lend too much to the atmosphere, and I can’t really afford Dwarven Forge pieces. There were a few modules back in the olden’ days that had artists sketches. But they usually tipped the players off that there was something really important about the few sketches shown to them.

I’m finding that my City State of the Invincible Overlord campaign has an ideal mix:

In town there is lots of in-character roleplay, plus the occasional combat. Typically the PCs spend the first half of the session in town, but then they go on a short delve into a dungeon beneath or just outside the city, have 2-3 combat encounters, and leave as the session ends.

I have trouble getting through dungeons in my campaign simply because my players take too long to get ready for an adventure. Even if i only have 3 or 4 players, it takes about 2 hrs for them to buy all the supplies in town and buy the time we get into the dungeon we don’t have enough time to finish it. I’ve already made some house rules about weight allowance, food, and prices for m campaign to speed things up; but, my players have 10 questions each and feel they need to buy every last thing in town just to be ready. So most of my adventure hooks involve short missions from town to town or adventures that have a clear 1/2 way point to stop and continue. If I stop in the middle of a dungeon, when we return, players forget the layout and don’t clearly remember where they we going. I would like to do the “classic dungeon” , but I need to find a way to speed things up. Any advice???

Dungeons also allow explicit skill progression for the new DM
basics – managing players, each encounter is self contained, all options are clear and easy to present, no complex NPC interaction
Then you get to add things:
Foreshadowing what is in a distant room so players can make more meaningful choices. This includes managing clues to secrets and building adventure hooks.
Multi room impacts and monster rosters allowing the dungeon to become more alive feeling.
NPC interaction including alternate ways to negotiate encounters rather than fighting everything.
Learning to give different sections of the dungeon different flavour, working out what players notice and react to.
The step after that is introducing a hex crawl around the dungeon and the home town. They can then learn how to translate what they learned to a more open, fluid environment.
After that the DM can take the learner plates off and begin driving for real.

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