You cant improve your vengeance building in any way outside of taking damage on purpose such as standing in fire... cooldowns and damage reductions and dodging/parry do not lower your vengeance income.

As for macroing shotr, its a terrible idea, you really want to time it, especially on heroic, but you don't want to waste holy power by hitting crusader strike while at 5 holy power.. if youre at 5 and crusader strike is coming off cd, use Shotr right away then use crusader strike, youll still have one shotr banked up and youll lose no dps.

Simply a bad idea period. Besides, doing maximum dps shouldn't even be your top priority. The only time tanks should be looking to min-max their dps is when they have fights on farm or if it happens to also make a particular fight easier (HM Iron quon). Most of the places were high end tanks are doing rediculous numbers are places were they've clearly had the fight on farm and it helps them clear quicker every week. These numbers shouldn't be used as any kind of benchmark for tanks still progressing.

Simply a bad idea period. Besides, doing maximum dps shouldn't even be your top priority. The only time tanks should be looking to min-max their dps is when they have fights on farm or if it happens to also make a particular fight easier (HM Iron quon). Most of the places were high end tanks are doing rediculous numbers are places were they've clearly had the fight on farm and it helps them clear quicker every week. These numbers shouldn't be used as any kind of benchmark for tanks still progressing.

I'd like to disagree.
On quite a few fights tank dps is important. On some fights (H DA) entire start can be based around it.

I'd like to disagree.
On quite a few fights tank dps is important. On some fights (H DA) entire start can be based around it.

I mentioned your exact point in my secound sentence. I was just making a clear point that worrying about tank dps on a fight you are progressing on is worrisome, especially when not all the conditions are met for doing such high dps (single tanking it, soaking vengence, etc). Some fights are easier to single tank, granted, but if its easier to two tank a fight, especially during progression then maxing your dps is also not a prority, (because if it was, you'd be single tanking it).

A conversation about maxing your dps with the lmited amount of vengence you have in a two tank situation mostly comes down to a tight rotation and properly managing your limited vengence pool. Macroing SoTR to other abilities is dangerous, and goes directly against why you are there in the first place (to soak damage). Something that has been mentioned so much already in this thread that repeating it would be like beating a dead horse at this point. But i'll add it in to prove i've done my homework and covered all my bases.

Dps particular to dumuru? simple enough, even when two tanking you can maximise your dps by taking additonal stacks beyond 5 by using cooldowns and smart SoTR usage. Typically (at least with me) this means blowing wings and HA at pull (with lust) to build up a huge amount of SoTR "padding". Admitably i could save wings for when i have higher vengence, but i figure the wings used here allow me to spike up higher, and i fall back on the vengence to prevent a huge dip on the meters. You can then string along your cooldowns to pad damage with the increasing healing debuff. You swap when you absolutely cannot take it anymore. (or in my case, bubble because we have it on farm).

My point? When i was doing this originally, i played it safe every single time, only took 5 stacks, and did far less dps because of it. Now that everyone is used to the fight (healers, mostly) I push my dps on it.

I mentioned your exact point in my secound sentence. I was just making a clear point that worrying about tank dps on a fight you are progressing on is worrisome, especially when not all the conditions are met for doing such high dps (single tanking it, soaking vengence, etc). Some fights are easier to single tank, granted, but if its easier to two tank a fight, especially during progression then maxing your dps is also not a prority, (because if it was, you'd be single tanking it).

A conversation about maxing your dps with the lmited amount of vengence you have in a two tank situation mostly comes down to a tight rotation and properly managing your limited vengence pool. Macroing SoTR to other abilities is dangerous, and goes directly against why you are there in the first place (to soak damage). Something that has been mentioned so much already in this thread that repeating it would be like beating a dead horse at this point. But i'll add it in to prove i've done my homework and covered all my bases.

Dps particular to dumuru? simple enough, even when two tanking you can maximise your dps by taking additonal stacks beyond 5 by using cooldowns and smart SoTR usage. Typically (at least with me) this means blowing wings and HA at pull (with lust) to build up a huge amount of SoTR "padding". Admitably i could save wings for when i have higher vengence, but i figure the wings used here allow me to spike up higher, and i fall back on the vengence to prevent a huge dip on the meters. You can then string along your cooldowns to pad damage with the increasing healing debuff. You swap when you absolutely cannot take it anymore. (or in my case, bubble because we have it on farm).

My point? When i was doing this originally, i played it safe every single time, only took 5 stacks, and did far less dps because of it. Now that everyone is used to the fight (healers, mostly) I push my dps on it.

It's a healthy attitude to have. On progression, Monks and Druids have enough firepower on their gear - and by that I primarily mean crit chance - that they can still hit hard with no Vengeance at all. Plate tanks, by comparison, can only do good damage when Vengeance is high. When it falls off, their swords turn into wet noodles. The fact that Paladins scale so well with haste has given them the ability to break the gibson, and do ridiculous things compared to the other plate tanks. That doesn't mean that a low-end Paladin is going to top the meters - they're most likely going to be at the bottom by quite a bit.

It's a healthy attitude to have. On progression, Monks and Druids have enough firepower on their gear - and by that I primarily mean crit chance - that they can still hit hard with no Vengeance at all. Plate tanks, by comparison, can only do good damage when Vengeance is high. When it falls off, their swords turn into wet noodles. The fact that Paladins scale so well with haste has given them the ability to break the gibson, and do ridiculous things compared to the other plate tanks. That doesn't mean that a low-end Paladin is going to top the meters - they're most likely going to be at the bottom by quite a bit.

Indeed, I fall into the "Starting ToT in less then ideal gear" category and i was in much the same boat when i started.

Hi posters I am a haste control pali. The other day I was tanking and a fellow raider in the group said I was doing something wrong because i wasn't topping meters on the Durumu fight as a tank. Mind you i was doing what seemed to be ok about 80k dps. I have read thecks sacred duty posts and elitest jerks. I read that timing sotr is better then just slamming it, which i understand. But this fellow raider brought up an interesting point to me he said i should macro shield of the righteous to crusader strike, judgment and hammer of the righteous. This would cause me to use sotr every time my hopo allows. So i tried this and its proven effective my dps is way higher on fights so is my sotr uptime. On fights like horridon even with this method it handled triple puncture just fine. I thought this dude was trolling me but he said macroing the ability in will make it so that my dps improves aswell as vengeance building and allow for the self heals i generate to compensate for not just timing sotr. Thoughts? anyone please chime in and discuss this out or just help me figure out if this method is really better or worse.

Well I actually macro SoTr to my CS and J, but that's because I'm lazy. However, I have 2 seperate keybindings for J and CS on their own so that I have that control when I need it. You can do as you wish, but that method has never caused me any issues. Durumu is very easily solo tanked as a prot pala and will up your dps a load.

Well I actually macro SoTr to my CS and J, but that's because I'm lazy. However, I have 2 seperate keybindings for J and CS on their own so that I have that control when I need it. You can do as you wish, but that method has never caused me any issues. Durumu is very easily solo tanked as a prot pala and will up your dps a load.

To be fair, at 540+ gear levels, esp in 25m using the 4pc t15, you're going to be approaching 90%+ uptime on ShotR naturally, so it's pretty "safe" to just macro/autocast ShotR, since there's a high chance it'll be up for whatever you need it for anyway.

Obviously it can work on normals (since they can be face tanked mostly), but we're trying to set a good foundation of skillset/understanding. For someone just learning, conditional macros/keybinds can be a bit overwhelming.

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

To be fair, at 540+ gear levels, esp in 25m using the 4pc t15, you're going to be approaching 90%+ uptime on ShotR naturally, so it's pretty "safe" to just macro/autocast ShotR, since there's a high chance it'll be up for whatever you need it for anyway.

Obviously it can work on normals (since they can be face tanked mostly), but we're trying to set a good foundation of skillset/understanding. For someone just learning, conditional macros/keybinds can be a bit overwhelming.

Worked fine for me during T14, when sotr uptime was pretty low.

Sounds like he has trouble maximising his HP usage so macro'ing CS + J to sotr would probably be most beneficial.

I don't think anyone's saying it wont work to increase both ShotR uptime AND DPS throughput for someone who is struggling with proper HoPo management. The point that I was getting at was that doing this will put you at risk for lacking coverage on telegraphed nukes if/when you're autocasting at 3HoPo, esp at low gear levels. I agree that it sounds like he's a bit "scared" and sitting on HoPo for too long to ensure coverage for that nuke, so he needs to play a bit looser, but I'm saying only that it's better for him to understand the mechanic and cadence rather than binding it blindly.

Now, you are a 13/13 raider who also uses conditional macros/binds based on the situation. He is still working on normal modes. I don't think we can really lump the 2 of you together in terms of playstyle/skill.

Plus, in t14, there were not near the number of telegraphed nukes that t15 has, meaning that blind spam of ShotR wasn't as big a detriment to your survival as it is in current tier. Only one I can think of that was relevant to time ShotR to was Garalon slash and Sha thrash. Everything else was just a relatively steady stream of damage.

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)