Thank you for the responses offered! I am looking forward to Donald's response to Robin's question about why it is so risky to run a young dog in both Nursery and Open, as I think that it would be insightful.

I think that I will have to ask around a bit about the other questions I asked: now I am really wondering about this Nursery/Open thing, which seems a bit ambiguous to me.

Thank you for the responses offered! I am looking forward to Donald's response to Robin's question about why it is so risky to run a young dog in both Nursery and Open, as I think that it would be insightful.Karrin

It's an awful lot to ask a young dog to do that much precision work in a relatively short period of time. Mentally do they have the maturity to handle it? Certainly there are dogs that can. But that would be a situation where the handler would have to be able to put aside their own ego and decide to do what's best for a young dog. Laura

What about a different spin on this...opinions on running the same dog in Novice/Novice and Nursery classes, at the same trial?

With absolutely no rules basis for my opinion, this just sounds wrong to me. A young dog that is suitably trained and handled to run in Nursery should be well beyond Novice. Running in Pro-Nov or Ranch sounds reasonable (oftentimes, like at Bluegrass, they are run on the same course) but not Novice. As I said, no basis for my opinion other than gut feeling.

Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

It is not prohibited, Sue, and I agree with you. Does that mean there's a "loophole" in the rules (in that it's not expressly prohibited), a sort of "Code of Conduct" that is so obvious to most that it didn't need to be written, or have I got the wrong perspective on it?

It is not prohibited, Sue, and I agree with you. Does that mean there's a "loophole" in the rules (in that it's not expressly prohibited), a sort of "Code of Conduct" that is so obvious to most that it didn't need to be written, or have I got the wrong perspective on it?

I guess maybe that a problem with making "rules" is that not every case is the same. I don't know the circumstances, of course. Under NEBCA rules, if I understand correctly, no dog that has run in a class any higher than Pro-Nov can run in Novice with a (different) novice handler (and, of course, can't run in Novice with the same handler that it ran in Pro-Nov). So, you would think (following their line of thought) that a dog that has *competed* at Nursery level would not be eligible to compete at Novice level with any handler.

But, not all organizations have the exact same rules, I'm assuming, and not all trials fall under the aegis of a regional/local organization, so the trial host/course director might decide otherwise?

Rule or no rule, it just doesn't sound sportsmanlike to me but I don't trial, and really shouldn't be sticking my nose in this discussion.

Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

It is not prohibited, Sue, and I agree with you. Does that mean there's a "loophole" in the rules (in that it's not expressly prohibited), a sort of "Code of Conduct" that is so obvious to most that it didn't need to be written, or have I got the wrong perspective on it?

One of the problems with making a rule to address running the same dog in the Nursery class and in Novice-Novice is that the USBCHA (which governs Nursery) does not sanction Novice classes. So, it would be up to the local associations to address this issue, and then there would be the challenge of consistency among all of the regional associations. Personally, I would hope that anyone with a dog capable of running a Nursery course would refrain from entering it in a Novice-Novice class, regardless of the handler's eligibility for that class.

Just my shovelfull,nancy

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog.You are his life, his love, his leader.He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart.You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." Author Unknown

Megan wrote: One of the problems with making a rule to address running the same dog in the Nursery class and in Novice-Novice is that the USBCHA (which governs Nursery) does not sanction Novice classes. So, it would be up to the local associations to address this issue, and then there would be the challenge of consistency among all of the regional associations. Personally, I would hope that anyone with a dog capable of running a Nursery course would refrain from entering it in a Novice-Novice class, regardless of the handler's eligibility for that class.

Just my shovelfull,nancy

Sounds like your shovel and my shovel have similar opinions on this one!

Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

"Sounds like your shovel and my shovel have similar opinions on this one! "

Funny!!! Hey, did you go to get Dan yet?

nancy

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog.You are his life, his love, his leader.He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart.You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." Author Unknown

"Sounds like your shovel and my shovel have similar opinions on this one! "

Funny!!! Hey, did you go to get Dan yet?

nancy

I'll be driving partway down tomorrow evening after work, and then working with Roy on Wed morning, and driving home that day. We are excited (although I have to admit that Dan has been a bit of a handful, even for Roy) although Celt will not be happy that Dan's coming home. Celt's enjoyed this peaceful summer without a brash and confident youngster to get under his skin.

The rest of us are excited! Maybe Roy, most of all!

Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

Debbie asked a good question. I didn't recognize the handler's name, but then, I wasn't around much last year. I've tried to look at it from several perspectives (could the person be new to trialing? not from the area? etc.), but I keep coming back to the thought that even if it was a person's very first trial...wouldn't it make sense to review the rules or requirements of each class to know what to enter? I'd think that should make it obvious that what is expected of the Nursery dogs, and what is expected of the Nov/Nov dogs, are at two completely different skill levels. BTW, the handler seemed to do a nice job, from what I saw.

LOL! And will photos be taken of Roy and you working him...and will they posted?

I'm taking the camera, charging the batteries, and hoping for the best!

Previously, when I went after the Bluegrass, he did okay the evening he didn't know I was there, and was an absolute meathead the next morning - and Roy said it took him nine days to get Dan's mind back on his work - he kept running to the yard to look for me each time he was let out. I am flattered but that is one reason that I haven't been back for the last (almost) four months - because Roy was concerned it would take him over a week each time to get Dan's brain back in gear.

Roy is very concerned that Dan will be too much for me, and I'm hoping he's wrong on that. Nevertheless, I plan on photos but my camera is not the best! That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!!!

Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

Debbie asked a good question. I didn't recognize the handler's name, but then, I wasn't around much last year. I've tried to look at it from several perspectives (could the person be new to trialing? not from the area? etc.), but I keep coming back to the thought that even if it was a person's very first trial...wouldn't it make sense to review the rules or requirements of each class to know what to enter? I'd think that should make it obvious that what is expected of the Nursery dogs, and what is expected of the Nov/Nov dogs, are at two completely different skill levels. BTW, the handler seemed to do a nice job, from what I saw.

Oh, so this actually happened???? I thought that your question was hypothetical (silly me!). It would be interesting to know if the handler had trained the dog or purchased it trained, as well.

nancy

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog.You are his life, his love, his leader.He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart.You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." Author Unknown

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog.You are his life, his love, his leader.He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart.You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." Author Unknown

It did, but I didn't want it to sound like I was "sour grapes" complaining about it, just...puzzled, or taken aback, I guess.

I take total responsibility for my own suckage (or success) in my runs, and no one else's run, good or bad, has any direct impact on my own run. I just have to do the best I can, and strive to do as well as the people that set the bar high.

Debbie asked a good question. I didn't recognize the handler's name, but then, I wasn't around much last year. I've tried to look at it from several perspectives (could the person be new to trialing? not from the area? etc.), but I keep coming back to the thought that even if it was a person's very first trial...wouldn't it make sense to review the rules or requirements of each class to know what to enter? I'd think that should make it obvious that what is expected of the Nursery dogs, and what is expected of the Nov/Nov dogs, are at two completely different skill levels. BTW, the handler seemed to do a nice job, from what I saw.

Depending on the area, there really are no printed rules for newbees or they don't know where to find them. Even then I see people enter into classes that either they are not ready for or that maybe they are over prepared for depending on whether or not someone takes them under their wing or even if the right person takes them under their wing.

A case in point is our State Fair, many of our open handlers that have novice students advised their students against entering the Ranch class at our fair, it requires the same level that is seen at our clubs typical P/N class, but there were still some there that have not run any higher then Novice at other events or have not ever run at our club events pony up to play, it happens every year. The description of the requirements was offered on the State Fair website, some have seen it run before and others haven't. I would suspect the reasons for entering are many, quite possibly each person will have a different reason. After this last year I had some handlers wanting to require the Novice handlers that entered to move up to pro-novice next time out, personally, I don't think it should be mandated but instead the performance should be considered. I would rather see the novice handlers move back down to their proper class then to see them struggle at the higher class and credit it as a mistake or being misadvised.

I have seen new novice handlers enter Nursery simply because their dogs qualify based on age, assuming that the class would be simple being for young dogs, I've also seen them give it a try after being approached by other handlers looking for a couple more nursery age dogs. As far as those that enter it not realizing what is required, it just depends on what a persons vision of work is for a young dog, if they come from other venues they may expect the entire course to be fetched. It's amazing how many come to their first trial and just enter, or if they have been to one before they just didn't understand what they saw. It always seems to look different when your actually standing at the post then it does from the sidelines.

Around here, depending on the circle you are in, there is quite a bit of pressure to move up, if anything a bit too much. Though I understand one of the points of view, move up and push your dog and yourself or get a different one. I often hear the argument that there should be only one class of handler and one primary class, Open, the idea is that if your dog is not ready to handle open that you should stay home and keep training. Still offer Nursery, but it's for the youngsters.

Another perspective is that if the open handlers want to push the others to move up then open handlers should not be running in the p/n class (this was from an open handler). The idea is that an open handler should be running Nursery with their young dogs, transitioning them to Open when they are ready and then their older dogs should all be Open dogs. This would leave P/N as a Novice handler only class.

I've been pondering where to run my young dog this next season, I think ideally would be to enter him in the class where he is not over his head and would be most likely successful while also giving me more handling expirence. At this point I'm thinking P/N and Nursery, the other handlers that I work with are talking of running theirs Open and Nursery this year (their dogs are the same age, but they have been trialling a lot more then me), I suspect that if their focus was sheepdog trials that they would be rethinking that decision and sticking with P/N until they had a good shed on their dogs, don't need a shed for the cattle trials, but when we run open in cattle we are automatically expected to run Open at the sheepdog trials. Everyone has their own ideas of how other should enter.

Anyway, in regard to the history posted after the original question, I would be surprised if that handler didn't run P/N next time out, unless the club was offering a highpoint year end novice award, then I could see them staying in Novice through the end of the season and then moving up (we have that going on here now with a handler or two).