I know this band is fairly popular on here and for a short while I was totally loving their MDK album. I was meditating to it every day, it's just so rhythmic(can't find that in other albums, not like that). But then I found out some information about their main guy.. he might have been a nazi supporter. So I stopped listening to them. Anyway, I've been unable to find ANY interview with him where this is discussed(to hear his side of it).

I know that people are rolling their eyes and saying, "tons of musicians have serious issues, get over it." But the thing is I don't want to meditate to bad energy, if that makes sense to people.

So any helpful suggestions would be great and appreciated.. You know for sure that he's not, or you know of some very similar music that isn't Magma. If no one has anything then that's fine, just figured it was worth a shot.

Oh God this again...Well I can talk very straight now. I am not Christian, but I believe in God and really also believe in positive energies. And really Christian Vander is person who also believe in positive energies (if you have listened Hhai from Emëhntëhtt-Re, itīs hymn of love). Also, heīs "guru" is John Coltrane who is afro-american if you didnīt know.

I think this whole thing is just about that in wikipedia there was a text, that said Daevid Allen has said Vander had nazi svastikas on the wall in the begin of seventies. But that text has now removed, so it can also be just nonsense, at least it seems not have any references. Also there are svastikas in the first album cover, but that cover describes how bad the world has gone. After these things Vander has never got any nazi sympathies, he hasnīt even ever said to support the right side in the politics in France.

I think many artists have their dark sides, specially when they were young, also Vander looked really wild in the seventies specially at stage, on the other hand in the interviews he seemed to be very calm and nice guy. I just hope youīre stop being hypocrite, if you canīt listen Magma whatever reason, just donīt listen. But donīt start these kinds of thread thatīs meaning just seem to throw mud to some person.

Also, about Magmaīs music, I think itīs really much shamanistic so maybe you just shouldnīt listen shamanistic music (as far as I know many Christian thinks shamanism is from evil).

The hard part of all this, is that the kid is "meditating" and he has no idea what he is meditating to, or why.

"Tripping" is more like it, but I honestly do not believe that there is a rotten bone in that man, and in Stella (for that matter) and having met them, I can tell you that there is a lot more beauty and understanding here than is visible in a lot of bands, and work.

So sorry that funny/weird/bs stories get you like that ... that is a form of fear that is worse, a lot worse, than your "meditating", since it is spreading a fear that prevents you from learning anything ... honestly, I say that you have to learn for yourself what the truth is, and that does not mean to ask others ... you have to look, study, fly, live and die to find out for yourself ... and stop snickering if you made a "mistake" ... there is no such thing as a mistake, only folks that refuse to learn their lessons and study a little more and experience life as it is ... not as some fantasy version you think a religion tells you!

... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about! www.pedrosena.com

I know from some very well informed friends that there is probably at least some truth in the rumors. You need to make up you own mind on this stuff and do so research if it really bothers you. For what is worth his hero, Coltrane, is black, and he was married to someone who is Jewish and had Jewish members of the band. I guess the simplest statement is its complicated. I still listen to their music regularly.

You guys are a bit quick to jump on the use of the word meditating in the OP.

Talking about "bad" guys in rock to me one of the worst is Beefheart. You can read about wikipedia what kind of conditions "Trout Mask Replica" was made. When reading that it really didnīt make me glad, but still I love that album. But anyway if some music has bad vibes, I believe itīs that.

We put a lot of time and effort into the last discussion, and though I'm tempted to copy and paste or review what I said there, I won't.

Seeking proof that he is not a Hitler supporter "you know for sure" seems an odd approach and mindset to me and illustrates a prejudicial outlook (not very open minded). Proof operates as a principle in logic and law, but even if you mean evidence as nothing can be known with absolute certainty, including what I just said, it seems an odd and uncharitable way to go about things to me. If he hasn't discussed it and offered his side to it, maybe it's because it's such a non-issue (not just for him, but for interviewers). If it was important, then it is more likely that he would have been asked about it and spoken up about it to defend his reputation. Such topics in such forums is one way that rumours get spread, and it's problematic because some people are wired to always harbour doubts even if there's a ton of evidence to the contrary and if the allegations are baseless. If I said that Chancellor Martin d'Auberville von Chang II is a pedophile, some people would not only only believe it when I say it, but continue to harbour doubts even when it is shown to be a fabrication or a distortion of events.

While I do believe in scepticism, I am a great believer in principles of charity. Not only do I think that we should attempt to treat others as intelligent, rational creatures and,strive to put their arguments in the strongest form possible, but I also think and that we should attempt to see people, including their motivations, in the best possible light. I like to assume honesty, compassion and general goodness unless there is strong evidence to the contrary (doesn't mean I'm not wary or indeed rather of the misanthropic mindset at some times more than others). I think that too many people are far too judgmental of others. To me just doing this topic is not being charitable to Christian Vander, which might seem rather unChristian (unChristian Vander that is -- haha) and I am disheartened to see this come up again.

I think that he had some fascination with Nazism, and it inspired The Time of Hate era of his Kobaian mythology(as mentioned, the debut with the non-Buddhist swastikas shows a scene of horror, with an eagle's talon swooping over terrified people, which evokes the symbol of the Nazi party. I also think that the Time of Love era of his mythology is post Nazism when Fascism has been dispensed with. One could interpret that in various ways, it could be akin to the Marxist revolution, a dictatorship of the proletariat before such a state was dismantled for a Utopian communist society, so he felt that a Time of Hate was a necessary precursor to a Time of Love, or it could be that he was just presenting an allegorical dystopia, a la 1984, that revolted him, but he presented a happy ending unlike the picture of the future being a boot stamping on a face forever. I would find it strange that Vander would do an over-the-top Hitler impersonation that sounds like parody in "Stoah" if he respected or supported the man.

I have a Persian historian professor friend who has written many books, and he has long been fascinated with Nazism, and there are some things that he likes about the ideals, but he does have a nuanced view. As said, Coltrane is his hero, and I think I quoted Vander's thoughts on him in the last thread. He has performed with black musicians, he loves African American jazz, an ex-wife was Jewish as said. I know nothing of why the marriage ended, but I doubt it was because he sought the extermination of the Jews, or she couldn't stand his going on-and-on about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Without knowing anything about the marriage, or the timeframe, it would be conceivable that a bad marriage led to a fascination with anti-Semitism. People are complicated, and people's perspectives change over time. From what I do know of people saying about him as an older man, at least, is that he is a loving and spiritual man.

This search for evidence seems a strange one to me. Presuming guilt rather than innocence by asking for proof that he never supported Hitler is uncharitable, and not how people into logic and evidence commonly approach such matters. Surely the burden of proof should lie on proving that he was a Hitler supporter (innocent until proven guilty).

I read that old Wikipedia article, now amended said Mortte (anyone can add there), and have read something else on it, but I recall no claims that he supported Hitler, only that he had some Nazi memorabilia, which could have been used as inspiration for his music which, as said, was, in part, inspired by Nazism as wel as by the mythology that they drew on. He's passionate about his music, and like a method actor, I could imagine him getting into such stuff when he's looking to draw on it for his story. Some actors get so into their work that they try to be like and sound like what they are portraying, which can lead to some social faux pas if they are, say, portraying Adolf Hitler or Vlad the Impaler. If a serious method actor is playing a cannibal and asks to "have you for dinner", be wary about the invitation even if they include an "over" in the sentence.

Normally if I read something negative about someone, I would be sceptical of that and search for evidence to corroborate that and get a fuller view of it rather than search for evidence to prove that what was said is absolutely not true. If you find Vander not disproving it by saying nothing about this in your research, maybe it's because it never really was an issue at all and this is much ado about nothing. I find the Nazi regime both horrifying and fascinating, but I would never support Hitler.

Insinuations are made about about people all the time, but that doesn't mean they should have to defend that in interviews, or that it is considered an important enough question, as there is some dark cloud that needs enlightening so an interviewer feels the need to ask the question: "Are you ever, or have even been a supporter of Hitler" (to reference the Communist witchhunts of MCCarthyism).

Anyway, listen or don't to Magma. The energy, negative or otherwise, comes from you and says more about you than the music. For some other music that you might enjoy "meditating to", or tripping to as said. I think you might know this already, try Yatha Sidhra's Meditation Mass and Popol Vuh's Hosianna Mantra. I prefer to focus on my breathing in a quiet place when meditating (practicing mindfulness).

By the way, it is thought that Stella Vander may have posted here in the past, but even if she does check this site now and then, I wouldn't expect a response from here. Perhaps you could email someone through Magma's official site -- methinks that such an approach would be better than casting aspersions on his character again.

Talking about "bad" guys in rock to me one of the worst is Beefheart. You can read about wikipedia what kind of conditions "Trout Mask Replica" was made. When reading that it really didnīt make me glad, but still I love that album. But anyway if some music has bad vibes, I believe itīs that.

I've read similar and highly detailed accounts of Beefheart's, shall we say, "band abuse" in "Captain Beefheart, The Biography" by Mike Barnes (published in 2000). No, he does not come off like a nice guy, especially during the Trout sessions...but hey, no one was holding a gun to the head of the musicians in the Magic Band and they could have walked away at any time - and probably got a job with Zappa

Back on point...it really comes down to the question: Can you enjoy the music, but not like the musician? Of the hundreds of bands I'm into, I know virtually nothing about 90% of the musicians that made the music, a little about 5%, and a lot about the remaining 5%. To me, the music they created is all that matters. I don't care that Beefheart was a tyrant, Tony Banks a control freak or Lemmy a collector of nazi memorabilia, it's all about the music.

As far as the OP being concerned about meditating to "bad energy" music, I understand the concern, but I'd say let your ears and heart be your guide. If the music feels right, why care what was in the head of the person that made it? Otherwise, you'll spend all your time researching musicians instead of digging the music

Talking about "bad" guys in rock to me one of the worst is Beefheart. You can read about wikipedia what kind of conditions "Trout Mask Replica" was made. When reading that it really didnīt make me glad, but still I love that album. But anyway if some music has bad vibes, I believe itīs that.

I've read similar and highly detailed accounts of Beefheart's, shall we say, "band abuse" in "Captain Beefheart, The Biography" by Mike Barnes (published in 2000). No, he does not come off like a nice guy, especially during the Trout sessions...but hey, no one was holding a gun to the head of the musicians in the Magic Band and they could have walked away at any time - and probably got a job with Zappa

Back on point...it really comes down to the question: Can you enjoy the music, but not like the musician? Of the hundreds of bands I'm into, I know virtually nothing about 90% of the musicians that made the music, a little about 5%, and a lot about the remaining 5%. To me, the music they created is all that matters. I don't care that Beefheart was a tyrant, Tony Banks a control freak or Lemmy a collector of nazi memorabilia, it's all about the music.

As far as the OP being concerned about meditating to "bad energy" music, I understand the concern, but I'd say let your ears and heart be your guide. If the music feels right, why care what was in the head of the person that made it? Otherwise, you'll spend all your time researching musicians instead of digging the music

This is actually helpful. Thank you. And thank you Nogbad for your post.

Logan, I can see your point about this thread and so if you want to delete it.. by all means.

Nah, I won't delete it. Not only do I commonly dislike censorship, but I feel that deleting this would be "uncharitable" to the people who put time and thought into this thread, there's plenty of positivity on display, some good advice I think, and there is interesting reading. I respect our community. I do imagine how the Vanders might take some of this negatively if they became aware of it, an empathetic reaction on my part, but maybe they'd take it all in good spirits.

Here's Vander talking about John Coltrane -- maybe this gives a bit more of a feeling for the man (there are English subtitles):

I'm a big fan of Coltrane. And by posting this video, I'm not saying that no one could admire both Hitler and John Coltrane at the same time (one potentially could admire aspects of both Jesus and Hitler, and the Dalai Lama and Charles Manson).

Nah, I won't delete it. Not only do I commonly dislike censorship, but I feel that deleting this would be "uncharitable" to the people who put time and thought into this thread, there's plenty of positivity on display, some good advice I think, and there is interesting reading. I respect our community. I do imagine how the Vanders might take some of this negatively if they became aware of it, an empathetic reaction on my part, but maybe they'd take it all in good spirits.

Here's Vander talking about John Coltrane -- maybe this gives a bit more of a feeling for the man (there are English subtitles):

I'm a big fan of Coltrane. And by posting this video, I'm not saying that no one could admire both Hitler and John Coltrane at the same time (one potentially could admire aspects of both Jesus and Hitler, and the Dalai Lama and Charles Manson).

Mercy you can certainly tell he's a fan, I don't even talk about Zappa like that. You know he seems like a good guy. And the consensus on here seems to be that he is so, like you said before, I'm going to go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt here. In fact I'm listening to Magma's first album right now, very jazzy I'm loving it. Thank you for posting this and for the two suggestions before, I'll have to check them out sometime.

Talking about "bad" guys in rock to me one of the worst is Beefheart. You can read about wikipedia what kind of conditions "Trout Mask Replica" was made. When reading that it really didnīt make me glad, but still I love that album. But anyway if some music has bad vibes, I believe itīs that.

I've read similar and highly detailed accounts of Beefheart's, shall we say, "band abuse" in "Captain Beefheart, The Biography" by Mike Barnes (published in 2000). No, he does not come off like a nice guy, especially during the Trout sessions...but hey, no one was holding a gun to the head of the musicians in the Magic Band and they could have walked away at any time - and probably got a job with Zappa

Back on point...it really comes down to the question: Can you enjoy the music, but not like the musician? Of the hundreds of bands I'm into, I know virtually nothing about 90% of the musicians that made the music, a little about 5%, and a lot about the remaining 5%. To me, the music they created is all that matters. I don't care that Beefheart was a tyrant, Tony Banks a control freak or Lemmy a collector of nazi memorabilia, it's all about the music.

As far as the OP being concerned about meditating to "bad energy" music, I understand the concern, but I'd say let your ears and heart be your guide. If the music feels right, why care what was in the head of the person that made it? Otherwise, you'll spend all your time researching musicians instead of digging the music

I agree you fully! When I read about what happened in that year before they recorded Trout, I had a some moments really bad feelings about that album. But I have always also thought if I love some art, I donīt care about what kind of persons have made it. Many artists have been mentally sick & mean (Picasso comes into my mind) but made a great art. And as you said, those Magic Band guys also understood then, that there was something really great becoming, some of them ran away from that house (I think at least Drumbo did it & he was the main person to make Beefheart difficult compositions playable), but they came back because they wanted to finnish the album. What did Zappa payed them at least that time, that was other question.

One point I want to say here more is that I think we all have our bad sides. And I think there is no better way than art to handle those sides, even creating own music (or some else art) or also listening some other, not so cheerful music. Also I donīt believe anything bad can stick you from music if you donīt want it.

I remember reading a very good post that would have helped you with this issue at just about the time you disappeard from the forum last time, that I thought you should have checked out, but by now I don't really remember which thread it was, nor what was said about it. But it might have been one of your own threads from back then.

I am not sure I would find Magma music to meditate to - something like Virgin-years Tangerine Dream or Klaus Schulze, or maybe some of Electric Orange, or Cosmic Ground (an offshoot of Electric Orange) - might be more suitable for meditation.

When I was much younger (but already at adult age if only just), I used some names and symbols that alluded to Stalin and his reign in a way that it may have been understood as if I was a stalinist, in a game playing framework. There was some meaning to it in the sense that I wanted to put up some "scary" symbolism in a context in which this was slightly grotesque; it fit my humor at the time but now I think it was bad taste and being too young to understand how some things are easily perceived by people.

But I was certainly not a stalinist in any way, I wasn't even uninformed and naive about him, I just was immature in terms of what to communicate and what people make of that. I'm happy that I'm not a public figure and that nobody will dig this out these days to evidence that I was or am a stalinist.

Not sure how far the similarity of this story to Vander goes, just saying...

When I was much younger (but already at adult age if only just), I used some names and symbols that alluded to Stalin and his reign in a way that it may have been understood as if I was a stalinist, in a game playing framework. There was some meaning to it in the sense that I wanted to put up some "scary" symbolism in a context in which this was slightly grotesque; it fit my humor at the time but now I think it was bad taste and being too young to understand how some things are easily perceived by people.

But I was certainly not a stalinist in any way, I wasn't even uninformed and naive about him, I just was immature in terms of what to communicate and what people make of that. I'm happy that I'm not a public figure and that nobody will dig this out these days to evidence that I was or am a stalinist.

Not sure how far the similarity of this story to Vander goes, just saying...

I think there's a big difference between using symbols of oppression to make an artistic or fictional point versus using those symbols because they actually represent your own ideology. Of course, choosing to use those images in the first place can easily lead to the mistaken impression that you support their underlying meaning or message. Of course, if shock value is your purpose, these symbols still resonate heavily so will

be quite effective in eliciting a visceral response.

Look at Roger Waters and The Wall...especially the part of the story where Pink becomes a fascist rock star (In the Flesh Pt 2). Is Roger a closet nazi because he employed that imagery? I seriously doubt it, but it goes to show the problem people have in separating the artist from the art.

In a related story, last week Germany reversed 70+ years of law and now allows the use of the swastika in video games if they have "an artistic or scientific purpose or help describe current or historical events." In the mid 90's when WWII computer flight simulations began popping up, the authors had to release 2 versions. One with the historically accurate swastika on the tails of the planes and another for Germany without.

Whether it's the swastika or the confederate flag, as much as some people would like to pretend they never existed, they're both historical facts. Shoot, Zakk Wylde plays a custom confederate flag painted Les Paul but I somehow doubt there's many people that refuse to listen to him because of it

I am not sure I would find Magma music to meditate to - something like Virgin-years Tangerine Dream or Klaus Schulze, or maybe some of Electric Orange, or Cosmic Ground (an offshoot of Electric Orange) - might be more suitable for meditation.

Maybe if he wants to try real meditation, he can sit through Frank Perry's first 2 albums ... the only hint I can give you is that it took me 3 times to get past the first 5 minutes of side one of the first album. Since then, I can easily meditate through these, and I still think that this is probably one of the best meditation albums around. There are others, but I am not sure that many really go this far and deep, as this one does ... and to think that "rock music" can do something this strong, is to really confuse the idea of what "meditation" really is.

The valuable lesson in meditation for this, is that it is not supposed to "lead you in" with lyrics of well known/accepted ideas about some instruments, that have a tendency to change your inner direction into something that is not called meditation. Both TD and KS, are good at these things, although KS would be better suited for it, since he does not work on the melody or the "song" side of the music ... he merely sticks to what he is doing at the moment with whatever he is working on, and specially in the many pieces in the WORKS series which have NEVER been publicly released (these were a special order 10 CD sets some 25 years ago), only to find out that in those pieces are KS's best meditations I have ever heard. And that is not to say that his own albums are not as good, because they are, but for the most part, I'm not sure that most people are capable of sitting and listening to KS, because of their top ten conditioning of their minds and thoughts. Musicians like KS, pretty much demand that you displace your ideas about music, and just live inside that moment within the music ... nothing else, and no words necessary, although the stuff with Arthur Brown has never bothered me, and in fact seemed to be just right.

Edited by moshkito - August 13 2018 at 12:02

... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about! www.pedrosena.com

I think there's a big difference between using symbols of oppression to
make an artistic or fictional point versus using those symbols because
they actually represent your own ideology.

True and fair enough, but there's a third category in which such symbols may be used out of lack of consideration making a "point" that wouldn't have required them and could have been better transported without, even though they still don't represent one's own ideology.

And maybe a fourth category in which there's a probably somewhat irrational fascination on show with these symbols and what they represent, without explicitly either supporting the ideology or distancing oneself from it. This is easily misinterpreted, and because it involves an element of provocation, the artist may be fine with that, at least for the moment. (David Bowie comes to mind.)

I think there's a big difference between using symbols of oppression to
make an artistic or fictional point versus using those symbols because
they actually represent your own ideology.

True and fair enough, but there's a third category in which such symbols may be used out of lack of consideration making a "point" that wouldn't have required them and could have been better transported without, even though they still don't represent one's own ideology.

...

What is strange to me, and I am a writer, is that most writers I have EVER met, and this includes the many around my own dad's work and life, they did not write because they wanted to display a symbol in the nude so you know what it meant.

Most of them wrote what they saw and felt, and WE, the readers, LATER, were the ones that thought that "symbols" of this and that were created. I, for example, do not use "symbols", however, I have been asked, more than once, why do I use "personal symbols", instead of "universally known symbols", to which I could only reply ... "I'm not a copy. I only write what I see, not what I have been told." But even Dean, confronted me on this saying that the likelihood is that some of these became a part of me as I grew up, which is quite possible, however, my usage of these has nothing to do with someone else's interpretation of these symbols and their use.

Thus, the gross misinterpretation of some works, and in this case, I find that MAGMA is vastly misunderstood, however, the folks that have seen them and have LISTENED to them in depth, usually know a lot better.

One worry, though ... pretty soon someone is gonna post that CARMINA BURANA is also linked to the same ___________ symbols because of what it sounds like! (It's not as rock'y, or jazz'y, though!)

... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about! www.pedrosena.com

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