Tuesday, September 07, 2004

Putting Your Money Where Your Mouth Is...

In 1997 I worked for the ‘Donald Trump of Pennsylvania’ (as deemed by Philadelphia Magazine).I was the personal assistant/secretary to both the Vice President and the Construction Manager.One of my various responsibilities was to coordinate all purchase orders (PO’s) from the hundreds of contractors that worked at the various properties (and get them paid).I loved this job –I had the best of both worlds…I was being paid by ‘the suits’, but most of my interactions were with the ‘blue-collar boys’.I actually looked forward to going to work, a place where the contractors told me daily how unorganized it had been before I came and how long it used to take them to get paid…so nice to be appreciated!

‘Trump JR, Inc’ was fanatical about property numbers and PO numbers --nothing would get paid without them… All of a sudden, contractors began dropping off bills that just said ‘Cherry Hill’ –no property number and no PO.I would call the accounting office to get a property number or to find out what was going on, and would always just be told, ‘Just write Cherry Hill, we’ll know what it is.”I thought this was really strange, but I was always so busy that I didn’t dwell on it much (truthfully, I thought maybe one of the owners was having a house built on company dollars…?)

About 2 months after the mysterious invoices began:

“Did you get my last PO?We’re really tight this month –is there anyway you can speed that up for me?” asks Joe Maintenance Guy.

“I don’t see it here…what property was that for?”

“Cherry Hill…the abortion clinic.”

I wanted to throw up.I was helping to build an abortion clinic.I couldn’t sleep that night.I tossed and turned and wondered what I should do.You see, the week before they told me that they wanted me to stay there and go to school part-time (I had told them I was thinking about going back to school full time).They promised that I would be making “more than I would ever make as a teacher” if I stayed—they were talking upwards of $45K with full benefits (I was 25 and had yet to complete my degree) with guaranteed bi-yearly raises AND tuition reimbursement.The man and I were newlyweds who would have been thrilled to be making over 100K a year combined (with no more student loans accumulating).Neither of us had ever seen that kind of money, we didn’t have parents who could buy us a house, furnish it or have a trust/college fund waiting (like some of our friends)…that’s just not where either of us is from.

I quit the next day.I told them I would stay the customary two weeks, but I would do nothing for the Cherry Hill ‘property’.They tried to get me to stay –various ‘suits’ coming in to tell me their ‘abortion’ stories and how they ‘don’t like it either’, but even if ‘they don’t build/refurbish them someone will’.I did appreciate that they were trying so hard…but, to no avail.

The man ran into one of my old bosses a couple of weeks ago.

“Is she still saving babies?” he asked (His wife was a devout Catholic and he was taking major heat over the clinic back then from her too).

“Now she’s trying to save the world….”

Have you ever had to put your money where your mouth is?It’s hard.That’s the only time that it has happened to me in such a clear-cut way and it was one of the hardest decisions that I have had to make.It’s easy to justify and rationalize when it will be monetarily beneficial, and I won’t lie—I tried to rationalize it –I knew they wouldn’t make me do anything with that account if I didn’t want to…I told myself I’d donate lots to pro-life causes (Money from abortionists would be going right to the pro-life movement…giving the life a purpose…nice try right…)

I felt so good when I walked away…I know that I made the right choice.I had done many things that I felt proud of before (AIDS walks & donations, donating time/small amounts of money, volunteering), but this was different –this was true self-sacrifice that hit me hard –right in the pocket… and one of the few things that truly makes me proud in retrospect.When push came to shove, I actually put my money where my mouth was (I don’t say this bragging –I say it because that day I really didn’t know what I would do).

This isn’t about abortion –that is just where the ‘test’ presented itself to me.This is about belief and action.I usually judge people on their actions –not by what they say.We can talk about things until we’re blue in the face…but what would you give up for that belief?

I have been thinking a lot about ‘self-sacrifice’ lately –it is not something that comes naturally or easily, but it can be very [emotionally] rewarding…

44 comments:

I love this post -- I love the picture at the top, the foot -- those sweet little feet, behind my ribs for months on end -- I remember this time of your life, and how hard this decision was. Love to you, and props for the courage to write this.

This is a GREAT posting, and the kind that I've been wanting to see from you (not that my preferences matter to you). Regardless of what side a person falls on the abortion issue, the sentiment you are evoking here has to be appreciated by all. It's about following your beliefs, staying true to your morals. I applaud you. It's not often that us low-end-of-the-economic-spectrum people can see ourselves out of that much money, regardless of the moral dilemma. Now if only I get get you to draw such a definitive line in the sand regarding lies and the GOP attack machine's propensity for the use of lies to win at any cost...

Thanks for the site review. Thanks for almost giving me a 5 but instead giving me a 1. And your reason for the 1, because I rated my site a 10. Wow, I am sorry that I think my site is good. Maybe I should hate my site and think it sucks. I think it is good for a FREE SITE that I make no money on. I created the site because of my passion for conservative ideas. But you are probably right I should have given myself a 1 also. My site sucks, life sucks and I should just give up. Maybe I was wrong about you being a good example for the women of today. Thanks anyway.

Wild Bill: I am confused...I have never (to my knowledge) rated anyone's blog --nor would I know how or where to go to do so...Obviously, I wouldn't go to your blog if I didn't think that it was good (planning on adding a link, but been very busy with school starting...). Not sure if you meant to leave this somewhere else...

After reviewing your site I have come to the conclusion that it does INDEED deserve a 1 rating and you should INDEED give up. There are enough Michael Savages and more than enough Sean Hannitys already. As opposed to ALa71, who is a hotter, less-retarded version of Ann Coulter, you are a far flabbier, far more hair-follicle-challenged version of a talking head propagandist. And your arguments are derivitive. You suck. To see a site that actually IS good (which is, judging by your self-pitying claptrap, something you want to aspire to), visit my site @ leftwrite.blogspot.com

P.S. Women find Democrats sexier. When's the last time you heard someone say they wanted a piece of ELEPHANT? (cheesy bumper sticker reference). Just a thought.

Jericho, why can't you just be nice for once. The other democrats who post here are cool, even if we disagree. You are consistantly rude and crude, and I have had enough! Cut it out and quit being a jerk!!!!

Ala-- I think this is great, despite being on the opposite side of the abortion/reproductive rights aisle than you. I feel it is essential to stick to your guns and find your true moral center. In our society, voting with money/pocketbook, or in your case salary and benefits, can be more powerful than voting in a booth.

Like you, I feel great personal commitment to supporting organizations that conduct business morally, and boycotting those who do not. My family stopped our account with AT&T after it ceased funding Planned Parenthood. And I refuse to buy Proctor and Gamble for it's insanely sick animal abuse practices. It's why the food we eat is about 75% organic and free range-- I care about the animals AND the workers in factory farms and don't want to support the use of pesticides and hens eating cow brain for feed.

I have been meaning to post questions about how our little blog community uses their purchasing power, and if they think about the age of the worker who made their GAP sweatershirt, or if they care.

Thanks for caring so much about something that you took a stand, even to your financial dismay. Good for you.

Ala-- I think this is great, despite being on the opposite side of the abortion/reproductive rights aisle than you. I feel it is essential to stick to your guns and find your true moral center. In our society, voting with money/pocketbook, or in your case salary and benefits, can be more powerful than voting in a booth.

Like you, I feel great personal commitment to supporting organizations that conduct business morally, and boycotting those who do not. My family stopped our account with AT&T after it ceased funding Planned Parenthood. And I refuse to buy Proctor and Gamble for it's insanely sick animal abuse practices. It's why the food we eat is about 75% organic and free range-- I care about the animals AND the workers in factory farms and don't want to support the use of pesticides or hens eating cow brain for feed. It costs so much more money to buy organic and it is a commitment to always read labels and know about the companies you buy from.

I have been meaning to post questions about how our little blog community uses their purchasing power, and if they think about the age of the worker who made their GAP sweatershirt, or if they care.

Thanks for caring so much about something that you took a stand, even to your financial dismay. Good for you.

Well it looks like a lying liberal got me. Might have been that Jericho Brown ASS. Sorry, I did think it was strange that you would have given my site a bad review. Your right Jericho, whores do find Democrats sexier. But real women and mothers prefer Conservatives. Isn't it pathetic that Democrats like to hurt people for fun? They see nothing wrong with lying and making personal attacks against those they hate. Sounds like the tolerant party to me.

i agree on other things you have written before but totally disagree on this one.this is a very integralist approach, and totally utopistic. not building abortion clinics will just send women to abort illegally and without proper medical assistance. seen that before. under proper rules abortion can be an acceptable practice. in many european countries abortion is legal and free in the first 12 weeks. in ireland abortion is illegal. is it a better place? no. thousands of teenage mothers as young as 13, hundreds women flying daily to london to perform an abortion, hundreds abandoned kids. yeah, make abortion illegal and you will produce thousands of happy familyless kids, and thousands of single mothers who cannot take proper care of the kids and end up negleting them. but antiabortionists will have a clear coscience. how nice.if you are against abortion, it's your personal choice. doesnt necessarily have to be everybody's choice.

You know how much I love you (and ALa), but I have to disagree with your assessment that other democrats are preferable to jericho because they are not "rude and crude". Expressing one's liberal ideology rudely and crudely is refreshingly honest when compared to the cloak of "reasonableness" and "civility" that many liberal democrats wrap themselves in as they spout the most smarmy, pompous, self-righteous drivel you can find this side of an Al Gore speaking engagement.

Cheeky:Thanks for telling me about AT&T…I have been using MCI, but I’ll switch! LOL…As for ‘purchasing power’…I don’t think too much about it—unless it’s something blatant like Heinz ketchup or Ben & Jerry’s Ice cream…I don’t look into what companies are for or against because then I would have to stop using things I like…I can already barely watch any movies anymore…

Crono33:I agree, It is my personal choice…which is why I quit. If I don’t think it’s right, I shouldn’t be a part of it. Notice I didn’t lobby to shut them down...I didn’t even give their name here and expose them (obviously they were ashamed as it was a big secret).P.S. The adoption waiting list in America is somewhere around five years longP.S.S. There are many responsible choices available…keeping your legs closed, birth control pills/implant, condoms and the morning after pill…a D&C in cases of rape and incest (though less that 1% result in pregnancy)

************************************************Isn’t it weird how much that ‘thing’ in the picture looks like a foot? How can ‘fetal tissue’ have something that looks so much like a real foot? Strange…..

hate to break it to you, but that fetal tissue is a beautiful example of photoshop. i can do it myself. i also find it interesting that you are proud to put your money where your mouth is when it comes to one issue, but that you wouldn't want to have to give up stuff you like and so avoid checking out other issues - "ben and jerry's". is it easier to give up a job than it is cheap chemical chicken or ice cream? ps. at least angry "rude" democrats are honest. like the angry rude ["manly"] republicans, right? or is there a double standard?

Cheeky: Ok, I wasn't going to say more because I know this is a divisive subject...BUT, re-read your post please. You say that you stopped using a company that wouldn't give money to kill BABIES (what the hell was AT&T using consumer money to fund something more than half of Americans are against anyway?!)...and then you go on to detail all that you do to protect ANIMALS...Everyone is so distraught over 150 children killed in Russia when 40 MILLION have been killed here since 1972 --not in some radical move...just because they were inconvenient...

girlgrey...Obviously you've never been pregnant before if you assume the picture is from photo shop...when you are small and your baby is big you see 'parts' all the time...And sorry, I'm not going to worry about chickens being penned up while babies are having limbs pulled off while they are alive --I think I have my priorities straight.....Isn't it ironic...the left...complaining about Abu Ghraib and protesting for the right to kill children.Here...I have a sign for you:

alapeanutbuttersandwiches: wrong afuckinggain. your streak continues. error #1: i have two children, whose parts i saw aplenty. error #2: i don't assume it is photoshop, i'm just telling you i could make a photo look like that in less than an hour via a good mac. error #3: it isn't the penning up of chickens i worry about, it is the antibiotics that then enter the bloodstream of my aforementioned progeny that i cannot tolerate. error #4: i purposefully did not mention that i do not believe in any late or midterm abortion and could never ever do it myself, because i wanted to see what dumb-ass accusations you would make. however i do not condemn women who have chosen that route, as i am not a judge, goddess or succubus. neither am i anti-war if genocide is occurring, or i think it is justified. see, i consider several, if not hundreds, of facts, then make my decisions based on my personal morals. i don't adhere to party lines or expectations or secret pledges written in ox blood or whatever it is you die-hard skull and bone scuppers pledge allegiance to. leave it to you to be cut and dried and to make assumptions about people. i hope you aren't as pro-war as you assume i am pro-babykilling. cause it must be all or nothin' right? isn't that what your party boss-MAN tells you?

Oh Ala-- the first post was so nice and friendly, then you went and got nasty. Must have been after the Hannitized hour.

Well- glad you'll switch to At&T, mostly because your support for MCI (Worldcomm) means that you are supporting and condoning a company that has defrauded billions of dollars from taxpayers and investors. Not to mention employees.Happy to help.Planned Parenthood is not a genocide clinic-- it provides family planning (you know, the pills and condoms that you mentioned), education so women won't get pregnant or spread diseases. It counsels women on their reproductive health--one of the few places that will stand up and declare that women should have some control over their bodies and family size, etc. And yes, they perform abortions. But don't do the typical right wing stupidity of saying that's all they do. Frankly, they help prevent more abortions than they perform.

On to your attack about MY beliefs, MY values and MY choices about animals and abortion.To paraphrase you--this post 'was not supposed to be about such a divisive issue.' But yet you are a divder not a uniter!I feel that a kid who is left in a dumpster to die, a kid who is raped by her step dad, a kid who is absued, neglected and beaten to death and wedged between the matress and the wall (ringing a bell??--it was a banner year for fatal child abuse)suffers a far worse fate than a fetus that is aborted at 8 weeks. I understand that you disagree and I can appreciate your perspective.

What I will not appreciate or tolerate is you implying that I feel children are disposable but animals are not. You eat the bloody carcases. I DONT. My point was to affirm your decision to take a stand and do something based on morals. I think factory farming is sick, I think slaughterhouses are death chambers for the animals and low wage workers, I think animals deserve decent lives and decent deaths if they are to be killed. What's wrong with that??? Do you think it's OK for animals to be held in such close quarters they can't move, eat (literally) shit, and are held on chains with their throats cut and squealing in pain? Or do you just not think about it?? My point was that we should all think more about what we buy, and the companies we support-- REGARDLESS of what "side" we're on.Your comment about not wanting to know is exactly what's wrong--you are afraid you'll dislike the policies of a company and be 'inconvenienced' or feel bad about buying from them. Maybe you should think as much about the food you eat and the chemical cleansers you by as the movie stars whose films you boycott.So here's something to think about-- I try not to support companies that needlessly test on animals, that work 10 year olds like slaves, that pump chemicals into our food supply, our rivers and our air.How vicious of me, huh?

GG re: error #4: i purposefully did not mention that i do not believe in any late or midterm abortion and could never ever do it myself, because i wanted to see what dumb-ass accusations you would make.

I respect your desire to not have a late or mid-term abortion. In my experience, most americans are uncomfortable with abortion past 12 weeks gestation. perhaps this is your belief ? (dont want to assume) I would like to respectfully challenge that belief. IF..you are against killing an unborn child past 12 weeks gestation for yourself, could you give me a logical point (exactly) between perhaps 10 - 12 weeks when your decision to abort the child changes from being something you would do to something you would never do? I understand this is a painful and difficult "choice" for any woman confronted with an unwanted pregnancy (esp if the "man" isnt around) But i do believe that most woman, if they would really confront the hard fact that a baby resides within them and that killing it is never a "choice" then perhaps our behavior (men and woman) would over time change. I have been involved (proudly) over the years in the pro-life cause. It is a human movement with flaws. One of the flaws i see is the lack of support (despite many dedicated people who try to help re: Bethany Adoption Services) for the young woman who is faced with this terrible situation. I also have personally known a few people whose strong belief that abortion is the taking of the MOST innocent and defenseless life has lead them to be callous and insensitive to those who are in this difficult situation. Even so, please consider, life begins at conception. No science disputes this. The disagreement begins as to whether that life is a "person" to whom all the civil protections of our legal system apply. Perhaps the "Dred Scott" decision will inform the belief that, presently our Supreme Court is mistaken in this area. I hope i have not been disrepectful of your person or beliefs. As far as your statement "dumb-ass" is concerned.....well, we all get out of shape from time to time.

CM: re Planned Parenthood is not a genocide clinic-- it provides family planning (you know, the pills and condoms that you mentioned), education so women won't get pregnant or spread diseases. It counsels women on their reproductive health--one of the few places that will stand up and declare that women should have some control over their bodies and family size, etc. And yes, they perform abortions. But don't do the typical right wing stupidity of saying that's all they do. Frankly, they help prevent more abortions than they perform.

I would esp like to take issue with that last sentence. B4 i do, i do acknowledge that PP does much more than simply perform the killing of unborn children. You may be surprised to learn that many PP clinics perform zero abortions and give out much information, some of which can be helpful. PP has also been one of the main vehicles used to promote the culture in our country that the killing of unborn children is a "right" of a woman. Perhaps you are aware of the role that PP played in the setting up and execution (no pun intended) of the the forced abortion law in China in 1970. Just taking into consideration the critical role that PP played in that most populous of countries to FORCE every woman who is pregnant with more than one child to kill that child takes my breath away. Most people in this country are not aware of many of the "hard truths" of the abortion industry in the world (i do not assume that you are in this group) but as you can see that "last sentence" i referenced is in some serious trouble as to its veracity. with respect....

Cheeky:Sorry, but this isn’t a topic that can be discussed calmly… (If I believe that abortion is murder and that a baby is being killed and I’m not adamant about my opposition to it…well, there would be something very wrong with me).

My point was that if you looked at some pictures of partial birth abortion or 'regular' abortions, I would hope it would evoke more sympathy than veal... (Which I haven't eaten since I was 10). Putting those two things back to back in your comment just seemed…well, really heartless.

It is rarely the 'poor girl' (that can't afford a baby) that has the abortion (and, as I said, the instance of pregnancy from rape or incest is less than 1% -- ‘suburb’ abortions occur much more than ‘inner-city’ abortions) -All the things you mention (abuse) happened while abortion is legal (until the day you deliver if you want to and have enough money). Child abuse rates haven't decreased since Roe V. Wade (in fact I believe that they have increased). People have kids and beat them, drown then, and put them in port-a-potties... Planned Parenthood is the biggest abortion-provider in the United States...and it's all about the money. If you don't think abortion is one of the biggest money-making industries in this country and THAT'S why people lobby so hard for it...well you'd be wrong. When is it wrong…4 mths, 6 mths. 8 mths? Why when pro-choice people have a miscarriage they ‘lost the baby’, but if they have an abortion…it’s a ‘procedure’.

*Just a thought –libs always say not to ‘de-humanize’ the opposition. That’s what Hitler did with the Jews and what Americans did with the slaves. That’s what Roe V. Wade did with babies –maybe since we, as a country, have de-humanized children it is only escalating the chance of abuse and the mind set that would allow it…because NO One believes that’s not a baby…they just want the right to get rid of it.

I also believe that the government should not be able to tell a woman what to do with HER body…get tattoos, tie your tubes, get a nose job…even kill yourself –you just don’t have the right to make that choice for someone else…

I appreciate your love of animals –which I share. I worked at a vet for 9 years (for a pittance) because I loved it. But I also believe that animals are here for us to eat -that's why we have canine teeth. I barely eat meat myself, but there is nothing wrong with doing so. I believe in animal testing for drugs -not for cosmetics and I only buy MAC which does no animal testing.

“I notice that everyone for abortion has already been born” –Ronald Reagan

Greygirl- I can only assume that I have hit on a ‘sore subject’ as you attributed accusations to me that I didn’t make. If you have seen ‘parts’ while pregnant, then why would you plant the seed that the picture is fake-- when it’s not. Do you assume that you are the only owner of Photoshop and you needed to inform readers of its existence?…I have version 7.0…Limbs are pulled off babies when they are 1 week , 2 weeks, 4 months, 8 months…so what “dumb ass accusation” did I make? I said nothing of late-term abortion in my statement to you. Ah…YOU assumed…because maybe that wasn’t located in the ‘hundred of facts’ that you have so carefully considered. Watch the movie ‘The Silent Scream’ and consider that into your encyclopedia of higher knowledge.I am very pro-war when it comes to protecting this country from Islamic Fundamentalists, yes…but I am assuming that you are supporting the war in Iraq too…as genocide was certainly occurring…

For the record...I eat my steak medium rare. I prefer free range chicken and beef, but I haven't been too choosy. It's more about the flavor than the condition of their life. It was good for my ancestors, it's good with me. LOL

Interesting to note, no matter how the animal is raised, they all get slaughtered the same way. Frankly, killing is killing. I suppose one could make the point about "life and pain". Anyway you slice and dice it, the chicken and the cow and the pig are getting killed and chopped up. So, moral hairsplitting about how they are raised is kind of pointless.

That gets off the subject a bit about abortion. I guess I won't try to cover myself, but say I have a real dilemna about it. Wouldn't choose it for myself. Don't think that government should make laws about women's body or health. Think that planned parenthood could include a lot more counseling and options.

yeah, that thing about supporting these women. It does drive a wedge within the issue when pro-lifers are standing at the door and shouting down someone who is probably already traumatized, might have already been ostracized by their family and now complete strangers are telling them they are dirt bags and driving home the "immoral" card.

you know, it takes two to rumble. I'd love to see pro-lifers getting a list of all the would be fathers' names, tracking them down and giving them some hell. Or, putting some more money into campaigns that target men concerning safe sex and responsibility. I mean, do you see these kind of ads on TV anymore?

There was a brief spate in the 90's when our social conscience was being raised, but I don't see them anymore. Just the aid campaigns about aids making children orphans.

So, maybe a little equal pressure on the responsibility button could help out towards more equitable "planning".

Just a thought.

So, am I pro-life or pro-abortion? For once in my life, I don't have a firm opinion on other people's lives, just mine. I just know I don't like the what I see as the front strategies for either group.

Kat: I agree with you...and I think the men should get some heat too! Though I have to say, I am REALLY interested (though there is probably no way to judge it) in how many men are against it --as I personally know three who offered to take the baby (one even using legal action) all to no avail. I also know two who didn't know until after it was done. I had always assumed that women were having abortions because 'the man' wasn't there -which makes it more understandable....and then within the span of four years I met two (rich) married women that had abortions (family planning at it's best) -not to mention the ones that I already mentioned where there was a willing man. I know I may sound very judgmental (and I don't think I normally would -- if I hadn’t thought it was being compared to animals suffering), but I assume that I am not in 'real life' as it seems that everyone that is contemplating this comes and talks to me about it (not sure why this seems to happen –I am glad they trust me, but sometimes I wish I didn’t have the burden of knowing)...This is hard for me because if they end up doing it …I know -that day--while it's happening. I think I have mentioned before that the man and I offered to adopt the baby of a dancer (she was 7 mths. pregnant and her mother was threatening to kick her out of the house), but she had the abortion...I was devastated. I have another acquaintance that has told me that every since she had an abortion at 16 she has a re-occurring dream that a black angel comes to her and tells her she will never have kids -she is still pro-choice, but she is honest about the fact that it has haunted her and if she knew then what she does now would have never done it. Part of my 'forcefulness' about this is for the woman (though I know I didn't express that)...there are so many side effects and health consequences...there are a few 'after-abortion' blogs out there and the stories are heartbreaking. I don't think that abortion will ever be illegal, but I so glad that there are now some restrictions on things like 'partial & live birth abortions.

here my answer to your PPS:P.S.S. There are many responsible choices available…keeping your legs closed, birth control pills/implant, condoms and the morning after pill…a D&C in cases of rape and incest (though less that 1% result in pregnancy)------------------more utopia dear. keep your legs closed, yeah right. birth control is strongly advised against in some countries. in ireland condom required a prescription until a few years ago, and still is not very popular. still the christian church is against any type of birth control. how many women u know who give pills or condoms to the kids?as for long waiting list for adoptions, thats because of long bureaucratic BS. the waiting list is long, but always plenty of orphans. wonder why. bottom line is, its easy to make nice PC statements and post sweet pictures. someone mentioned genocide clinics. is jerking off technically a slaughter? is birth control technically homicide? being against abortion is just running away from reality. gmr

You know, I knnow two women who did the same thing. One was a very close friend of mine. She talks to me today about what her "second" child might have been like. She has two now. Once born after the "abortion". it really tore her up. but, I will say, the clinic did a lot of counseling before and after. They tried to help her figure it out. There was a bit of a story behind it, but, I really didn't do anything to talk her out of it. Too young I guess. Just tried to support her as best as i could.

Kat-- overall your comments on abortion are great-- it's such a terible awful thing and yet it shouldn't be legislated on for a number of reasons. Thanks for shedding some gray scale on this often polarized debate. People who are pro-choice do not like or love abortions and Planned Parenthoods, despite what Ala and others say, are not money making machines that grab women when they walk through the door and force abortions on them. I interned at a Planned Parenthood. I know.

But your comment about animals is weird. Humans all die too, so does that mean that it's OK for kids to live in squalor and terror, get beaten, live 50 to a room? NO! To say that just because animals are going to die it doesn't matter how they live does not make sense.

It does matter.

While some think froma religious perspective we are to dominate animals, they often conveniently forget the good stewardship concent also preached. Hey, if people raised animals on small farms like they did in biblical times--or even 100 years ago--this cruelty wouldn't be an issue. Nor would the tons of antibiotics in meat and milk, the offal and other brain bits HERBAVORES are fed and the literal shit in you meat supply.

I recommend Fast Food Nation for a look at the issue of our meat supply. A very good read. I doubt anyone actually takes me up on my suggestions, but Ala needs to know she's not the only one who has read a few books! :)

crono33: Error#553The Christian church prohibits nothing of the sort...the CATHOLIC church does. There is no prohibition on birth control, condoms, etc. in Protestant, Baptist, Methodist, Assemblies of God, etc. The adoption lines are long because there are tons of couples waiting for babies. The orphans that you speak of are kids that have 'been in the system', most with emotional or physical disorders ---some people can take that on and some can't...As Cheeky pointed out -kids can go to Planned Parenthood and get condoms/birth control...many public school have them now also (they should be using them anyway, as I would figure AIDS a worse fate than pregnancy).

OK...this wins 'Most Ridiculous Item of the Day':

"being against abortion is just running away from reality. " says Crono33.

HAVING an abortion is running away from reality. The reality is YOU f'ed up -YOU are pregnant with a child...will you find a way to deal with it...or will you run away from it and pretend you are having a 'procedure'...

Hubby and I have been trying to get pregnant for almost five years. There is a very strong possibility that we will be unable to conceive. I believe it has been mentioned that the wait list for adoption is five years long. Scott and I are giving it until I turn 35 next year, and then we will begin the adoption process.

I pray every night that if adoption is our destined path, that there will be a woman out there somewhere who will choose to have a child and place it for adoption, instead of abortion.

With fear and trepidation, and knowing that as a man my thoughts on the subject are perhaps illegitimate in some minds, I want to reprint a comment I made elsewhere on a different blog. Here goes:

I generally don't get involved in discussions regarding abortion for the following reason: "Hey, are you pro-life or pro-choice?" "I'm neither. I'm anti-abortion." brief moment of confusion, then depending who I'm talking to either with a cheer or a sneer "Oh, you're pro-life."

The abortion debate never goes anywhere because the two camps have set up circumstances that you can only argue about. Who isn't for "choice"? Everybody wants choice. Who isn't for "life"? Everybody wants life.

If this debate were really about raped women and unwanted fetuses forced on their bodies, then it would be something most people could at least come to terms with. But the simple fact of the matter is this: the sheer number of abortions performed on middle class white women as birth control renders all the other numbers and situations statistically insignificant.

Now, since there are a lot of options with birth control, from don't have sex to partial birth abortion, there would be something to talk about and possibly even come to terms on. But no one wants to debate or scream or rage about birth control. It's all about "Life" or "Choice."

The other thing that weirds this all up is some kind of tie in to women's rights that I don't possess the chromosomes to understand. "You'll not be telling me what to do with my body you chauvinist." Which leads, I feel, to cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

Since the numbers basically indicate that abortion is birth control, and there are plenty of less expensive and less traumatic methods for men and women to be responsible for their bodies, I find abortion to be the very worst of things for people in general: a way out of being responsible for your actions that is totally self-focused. It's expedient, and expediency always has a hidden cost.

But the nature of expediency require avoidance behavior, and no one wants to talk about their little pecadillos when they just want them to go away. Please note I am not talking about just abortion. This could apply to credit card abuse, bankruptcy, theft, cheating on your exams or spouses, etc.

So, pro-life/pro-choice is debated and raged about instead of core issues like why don't men act like men instead of little shits?

As long as the two sides are just going to scream at each other across a divide, there will never be any progress toward responsibility and honesty and sanity.

Frater:I enjoy hearing a man's opinion on this actually --and I agree. I think even many in the "anti-abortion" extreme might just wince and turn their head if abortion was only used in those extreme cases (and obviously for a woman's health -meaning life/death not metal or future reproductive health)...but 3-4 abortions for one woman...40 million in 32 years... I just saw a statistic that said (as I alluded to earlier-and looked up to confirm) that child abuse has risen almost 500% since Roe V. Wade...it would be hard to make the case that there was no correlation. I also saw a statistic (forgot to write down the number) of babies that are being aborted for Cleft palate -a very 'fixable' deformity... sign...I know I get a bit nasty with it, but I wish I could take every one...