Weapon useability

Returning from a long absence from WoW, for me at the very least, I have arrived with something that is flumixing my brain.

While looking back at our weapons and given some complaints about variable weapons or aesthetics I thought wasn't the Wrath model better? Yes I agree this is probably pointless but give me a shot. Given stripping away the core stat, ie. either Strength or Agility, and leaving the same Stamina and the correct amount of Attack Power. The Strength and Agility could even be replaced with gems and the Attack power left alone, by rather adding a socket with a special vendor (maybe crafted) bought item with the correct amount of the given stat. Keep the attack speeds the same as they currently are, with most of them already homogenized 1.8 and 2.4 making this easier, and use my given advice.

This would allow for all melee weapon users use any weapon allowing more choices, are you a Human wasting that racial because the BiS is an Axe? Fear no more!, since all weapon types can be catered to and used. The loot table can have more chances at giving you an item you can use. There can be a faster turn around resulting in maybe more made or better artwork, or both , making pretty much everyone happy.

Adding this given most people won't bother to read down. If you can't be bothered just smile and wave.

Let's try and touch up on some of the points you came up with.

Needing gems for a new weapon. In the current state we do this for anything from Armour to Weapons. Got a new chest? Should first go get it gemmed, enchanted and then reforged. This wouldn't even add a new step. You can even keep extra gems for when one drops.

Ease to change to the system Leamonparty like. Well that is pretty hard to agree with. You would end up with a new rule for melee classes. Some would have them and others would ignore the change. Why should a Monk or Druid need 1 less item/enchant/reforge/trangmog just because you spend your time not poking people with it. Monks do use their weapons on some moves. Also by that logic pretty much every Druid shouldn't bother with having Armour since they will be in a form of some sort. Yes it is a bit over the top but the logic you applies to the weapons applies there too. Finally it would require changing the scaling of every move they have on offer and that is was more work that removing a stat on the current tier of weapons and adding a vendor. They can reuse a model and gem design and be done with it.

Calling them stat sticks. I called them that because at the end of the day that is what everything in wow can be reduced to. A spreadsheet. Most of the time is our spreadsheet better than theirs. It's rather moot. Also it is a stat stick to a Warrior in the same way. It usually matters little if it is a Mace or Axe. Is it better? If yes then use it.

Their weapons are like relics used to be. Not really true. Relics and the such used to be awesome. They had actual relevance to the spec you played as and could change the priority system you use. At the end of ICC Divine Strorm climbed higher because of the stat buff you got from the relic when using the ability.

So if anyone else wants to join in feel free.

Last edited by AutomaticBadger; 2013-01-07 at 02:38 PM.
Reason: Adding some footnotes

He slipped out of his royal garments, left eternity to enter time, divinity to wrap himself in humanity.
The sea of glass, for the ocean of separation. He left peace, and for the first time felt pain.
Because the very hands that held the stars were now sentenced to wear my scars.

I would prefer that classes that don't actually USE WEAPONS, to not actually equip them. I feel likt hat would solve a lot of issues.

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

I would prefer that classes that don't actually USE WEAPONS, to not actually equip them. I feel likt hat would solve a lot of issues.

That would result in way more work. You have to rescale the way their skills scale and the base Stamina on that given piece of armour they use. This just needs a gem and sockets in all of the things! Also casters then loose their enchanting proc

He slipped out of his royal garments, left eternity to enter time, divinity to wrap himself in humanity.
The sea of glass, for the ocean of separation. He left peace, and for the first time felt pain.
Because the very hands that held the stars were now sentenced to wear my scars.

That would result in way more work. You have to rescale the way their skills scale and the base Stamina on that given piece of armour they use. This just needs a gem and sockets in all of the things! Also casters then loose their enchanting proc

Let me clarify. I meant more like Monks or Feral druids. They basically just use those for stats. Cat or bear form doesn't actually require the polearm, just the stats. Your post was mostly about polearms, so I assumed you had those in mind. Monks are the same way. They equip a weapon, and it stays on their back right? Just remove them, and give them some kind of special class buff that scales with the current average item level.

This would fix the LK issue of having a strength class be FORCED to use agility weapons, or weapons with attack power on it.

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

Let me clarify. I meant more like Monks or Feral druids. They basically just use those for stats. Cat or bear form doesn't actually require the polearm, just the stats. Your post was mostly about polearms, so I assumed you had those in mind. Monks are the same way. They equip a weapon, and it stays on their back right? Just remove them, and give them some kind of special class buff that scales with the current average item level.

This would fix the LK issue of having a strength class be FORCED to use agility weapons, or weapons with attack power on it.

It does make the calculation for average ilvl skew though. Also you can't disarm then giving them an insane boost in PvP.

The weapon is a stat stick that still matters given the base damage. Skills also have to be retuned then.

Rather my way where it is moot if a Polearm drops or a To Handed Mace or even a Staff drop. All Two Handed classes can use the item. More competition but gives you more chance of getting an item you like.

He slipped out of his royal garments, left eternity to enter time, divinity to wrap himself in humanity.
The sea of glass, for the ocean of separation. He left peace, and for the first time felt pain.
Because the very hands that held the stars were now sentenced to wear my scars.

I just feel like it would make more sense, and be less work overall my way. Feral druids don't actually USE the weapons. Now that Hunters don't use 2h weapons, its pretty much just agility users (that don't actually use weapons at all) that are messing things up. The only exception would be enhance shaman, but I think this could be easily avoided with some spells.

They even have a "debuff" that lowers overall healing, so I think they could do the same for my proposed special Druid/Monk buff.

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

Still lets a Druid gear faster given item level addition. Some can wait on a weapon for long and gear everything else. They might spike easily in a patch.

He slipped out of his royal garments, left eternity to enter time, divinity to wrap himself in humanity.
The sea of glass, for the ocean of separation. He left peace, and for the first time felt pain.
Because the very hands that held the stars were now sentenced to wear my scars.

How exactly would you calculate a feral or monk's damage then? Their attacks are based on weapon damage and being able to upgrade that weapon, regardless of it being seen in combat, increases their damage done. Otherwise they wouldn't scale very well if it was just attack power that increased their damage.

How exactly would you calculate a feral or monk's damage then? Their attacks are based on weapon damage and being able to upgrade that weapon, regardless of it being seen in combat, increases their damage done. Otherwise they wouldn't scale very well if it was just attack power that increased their damage.

I have very good faith that Blizzard could work it out. Just like some Paladin spells wouldn't scale with direct weapon damage. Just like spell casters aren't directly affected by any type of weapon damage. I am sure this could be attained. I would much rather it stay the same, or use my idea, than have to go buy special vendor strength/agility gems just to use a weapon. Or take a dps loss by weapons only using Attack Power over Strength.

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

Let me clarify. I meant more like Monks or Feral druids. They basically just use those for stats. Cat or bear form doesn't actually require the polearm, just the stats. Your post was mostly about polearms, so I assumed you had those in mind. Monks are the same way. They equip a weapon, and it stays on their back right? Just remove them, and give them some kind of special class buff that scales with the current average item level.

This would fix the LK issue of having a strength class be FORCED to use agility weapons, or weapons with attack power on it.

Even though both classes don't actually use the weapons to attack, weapon damage/dps is used to modify the damage of all their abilities. They aren't merely stat sticks like Hunter had in the past. Your idea will need a complete overhaul of how their abilities scale, and having classes not scale off weapon damage/dps was always a bad idea (ie enh shamans back in wotlk/cata).

Even though both classes don't actually use the weapons to attack, weapon damage/dps is used to modify the damage of all their abilities. They aren't merely stat sticks like Hunter had in the past. Your idea will need a complete overhaul of how their abilities scale, and having classes not scale off weapon damage/dps was always a bad idea (ie enh shamans back in wotlk/cata).

You mean like currently, when Paladins get a Str-Spell power conversion? This sort of thing could easily be implemented.

Besides, the OP's idea would ALSO require a complete overhaul, not to mention over complicating things for many classes, as opposed to my idea, which would only require more conversions for a very few classes.

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

You mean like currently, when Paladins get a Str-Spell power conversion? This sort of thing could easily be implemented.

Besides, the OP's idea would ALSO require a complete overhaul, not to mention over complicating things for many classes, as opposed to my idea, which would only require more conversions for a very few classes.

And still most of their damage comes from abilities scaling from weapon damage. It's not as simple as you think it is, neither is a good idea. We had classes in the past scaling most of their damage only from AP, and they had bad scaling.

And still most of their damage comes from abilities scaling from weapon damage. It's not as simple as you think it is, neither is a good idea. We had classes in the past scaling most of their damage only from AP, and they had bad scaling.

Again, I have faith that it could easily be worked out by Blizzard. I would also ask that instead of pointing out how you think everything I say is a bad idea, you come up with a real idea, or argue for the OP's post.

Also, we had the Wrath model where instead of getting Strength for plate, they gave Attack power, to more easily mesh the barrier of agil/str 2h users. This was also a bad idea, and a nerf for some classes.

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

Again, I have faith that it could easily be worked out by Blizzard. I would also ask that instead of pointing out how you think everything I say is a bad idea, you come up with a real idea, or argue for the OP's post.

Also, we had the Wrath model where instead of getting Strength for plate, they gave Attack power, to more easily mesh the barrier of agil/str 2h users. This was also a bad idea, and a nerf for some classes.

OP's idea is something asked a lot of times already, something I would like to happen if well implemented so we have more weapon options. Meanwhile yours seems just a rant because a Monk or a Feral Druid "steal" your weapons just for stat sticks, asking for them to have the slot removed and implementing a weird complicated system where their abilities scale of, ilvl was it? Instead of following a system that worked for years.

OP's idea is something asked a lot of times already, something I would like to happen if well implemented so we have more weapon options. Meanwhile yours seems just a rant because a Monk or a Feral Druid "steal" your weapons just for stat sticks, asking for them to have the slot removed and implementing a weird complicated system where their abilities scale of, ilvl was it? Instead of following a system that worked for years.

No, now you are just lying. I have never accused anyone of stealing a thing. I have also never seen a post similar to this one, that wants special gems for agil or str.

Again, instead of resorting to petty crap, can you be constructive in the slightest? All you have done is quote me, say thats bad, then when asked for input, you lie, put words in my mouth, again resort to insults... and blah blah blah.

YOURS just seems like a rant because you want more 2h options. The OP actually called it a stat stick, so I am not sure why you are quoting it in regards to me. They aren't really seen or used on most of the classes/specs that my post was directed at anyway.

Its also not weird or complicated. We have similar things already in the game.

What you ended with also conflicted with what you, and the OP said earlier. What system that has worked for years do you mean? If you mean the current one, yes, that one is totally fine. I would prefer that over having to go to a special vendor just to get primary stats for my weapon. Talk about overly complicated.

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

Your first post gave that impression, I'm not lying in the slightest. People have different interpretations of what an individual can say without resorting to "that's a lie and wasn't what I said" even though that was what I or anyone may read. If you keep quoting me back of course I will answer you and unless we have different meanings of words I haven't insulted you on any of my posts.

The fundamental base OP is talking about was raised a million times on the past years, remove main stat from weapons to have more options. He just added the vendor gem thingy. You are the only one that called just stat sticks. Of course I want more options, more options is always good. And we told you already, even if you don't see them wailing their arms around with a weapon doesn't mean that they aren't being used to calculate damage.

Similar things doesn't equal complete substitution of the current system. The system I meant was weapon damage being used for all melee classes, not main stats on them.

Not going to post anymore on this topic, since your sig clearly states this will be never ending and I don't like to reply back to aggressive posts.

Your first post gave that impression, I'm not lying in the slightest. People have different interpretations of what an individual can say without resorting to "that's a lie and wasn't what I said" even though that was what I or anyone may read. If you keep quoting me back of course I will answer you and unless we have different meanings of words I haven't insulted you on any of my posts.

The fundamental base OP is talking about was raised a million times on the past years, remove main stat from weapons to have more options. He just added the vendor gem thingy. You are the only one that called just stat sticks. Of course I want more options, more options is always good. And we told you already, even if you don't see them wailing their arms around with a weapon doesn't mean that they aren't being used to calculate damage.

Similar things doesn't equal complete substitution of the current system. The system I meant was weapon damage being used for all melee classes, not main stats on them.

Not going to post anymore on this topic, since your sig clearly states this will be never ending and I don't like to reply back to aggressive posts.

No, nothing I said implied I was "ranting" because I thought someone would "steal" my stuff. Thats nonsensical. And yes, if you are putting words in my mouth, that is flat out lying about what I have said.

I have never seen a post similar to this one, and certainly haven't seen it a million times. You are also very insulting with how you quote things, and italicize things while replying to me. Get it?

I would not be aggressive, if you hadn't been purely insulting, or added any type of real constructive criticism, (No, calling me a ranter, putting words in my mouth, and adding nothing besides saying all my ideas are bad ISN'T constructive).

Those weapons do nothing at all for those classes. They are not actually used, and in that regard are like relics, sigils, totems, librams, idols and anything else you can think of. Yes, weapon damage is another stat. Yes, they could change this somehow to compensate. No, it wouldn't be "weird" or "complicated" to do this.

Yeah, I get it. You want more options. But either the OP's plan, or your own version would be a nerf for some classes, and a buff for some, in the current form. So either way things would have to be changed.

More personal attacks? Now attacking my signature? What about this is wrong? Sorry, you don't win a debate by seeing yourself out of them. I am very sure you will read this anyway. So whatever, cheers.

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

Well it was fun reading you two argue with one another. Let's try and touch up on some of the points you came up with.

Needing gems for a new weapon. In the current state we do this for anything from Armour to Weapons. Got a new chest? Should first go get it gemmed, enchanted and then reforged. This wouldn't even add a new step. You can even keep extra gems for when one drops.

Ease to change to the system Leamonparty like. Well that is pretty hard to agree with. You would end up with a new rule for melee classes. Some would have them and others would ignore the change. Why should a Monk or Druid need 1 less item/enchant/reforge/trangmog just because you spend your time not poking people with it. Monks do use their weapons on some moves. Also by that logic pretty much every Druid shouldn't bother with having Armour since they will be in a form of some sort. Yes it is a bit over the top but the logic you applies to the weapons applies there too. Finally it would require changing the scaling of every move they have on offer and that is was more work that removing a stat on the current tier of weapons and adding a vendor. They can reuse a model and gem design and be done with it.

Calling them stat sticks. I called them that because at the end of the day that is what everything in wow can be reduced to. A spreadsheet. Most of the time is our spreadsheet better than theirs. It's rather moot. Also it is a stat stick to a Warrior in the same way. It usually matters little if it is a Mace or Axe. Is it better? If yes then use it.

Their weapons are like relics used to be. Not really true. Relics and the such used to be awesome. They had actual relevance to the spec you played as and could change the priority system you use. At the end of ICC Divine Strorm climbed higher because of the stat buff you got from the relic when using the ability.

So if anyone else wants to join in feel free.

He slipped out of his royal garments, left eternity to enter time, divinity to wrap himself in humanity.
The sea of glass, for the ocean of separation. He left peace, and for the first time felt pain.
Because the very hands that held the stars were now sentenced to wear my scars.

Well it was fun reading you two argue with one another. Let's try and touch up on some of the points you came up with.

Needing gems for a new weapon. In the current state we do this for anything from Armour to Weapons. Got a new chest? Should first go get it gemmed, enchanted and then reforged. This wouldn't even add a new step. You can even keep extra gems for when one drops.

Ease to change to the system Leamonparty like. Well that is pretty hard to agree with. You would end up with a new rule for melee classes. Some would have them and others would ignore the change. Why should a Monk or Druid need 1 less item/enchant/reforge/trangmog just because you spend your time not poking people with it. Monks do use their weapons on some moves. Also by that logic pretty much every Druid shouldn't bother with having Armour since they will be in a form of some sort. Yes it is a bit over the top but the logic you applies to the weapons applies there too. Finally it would require changing the scaling of every move they have on offer and that is was more work that removing a stat on the current tier of weapons and adding a vendor. They can reuse a model and gem design and be done with it.

Calling them stat sticks. I called them that because at the end of the day that is what everything in wow can be reduced to. A spreadsheet. Most of the time is our spreadsheet better than theirs. It's rather moot. Also it is a stat stick to a Warrior in the same way. It usually matters little if it is a Mace or Axe. Is it better? If yes then use it.

Their weapons are like relics used to be. Not really true. Relics and the such used to be awesome. They had actual relevance to the spec you played as and could change the priority system you use. At the end of ICC Divine Strorm climbed higher because of the stat buff you got from the relic when using the ability.

So if anyone else wants to join in feel free.

Well, thanks for not being as lame as that other guy. =]

Its just an idea, I am by no means an expert. I don't think this would be a good change at all while in the middle of an expac. I would think it would be done when a new Expac hits. I feel like you are really making it seem over complicated. Yes, their moves would be compensated and changed to suit the changes. This would really only require work on Blizzards part, or if you were a simcrafter. It wouldn't be too crazy to remember, Druids and Monks would no longer use weapons, and Shamans don't use 2h's anymore.

This would get rid of the insanely rare agility staves/2 h's. The same thing was done for DK tanks. They wouldn't be using a shield, so they compensate for the lack of a shield in other ways, through spells/passive/abilities/ The same with Druid tanks. Its not as crazy as you think.

I see your argument about some classes would require 1 less slot, and that is something I hadn't thought of. I currently have no response to it. I wouldn't think it'd be a huge deal to be honest. People who dual wield, or use a 1h/shield already have more than people who use staves anyway.

I don't care about the stat stick thing. That other guy was the one whining about it, and scolding me for saying it or "implying" it at all.

Fine point on relic special stats. But most relics weren't that great. In cata, I don't think any of them even had things like that anymore. It was just a placeholder for more stats and a free gem slot. They didn't show, didn't do anything by cata, they didn't even drop in raids.

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

Its just an idea, I am by no means an expert. I don't think this would be a good change at all while in the middle of an expac. I would think it would be done when a new Expac hits. I feel like you are really making it seem over complicated. Yes, their moves would be compensated and changed to suit the changes. This would really only require work on Blizzards part, or if you were a simcrafter. It wouldn't be too crazy to remember, Druids and Monks would no longer use weapons, and Shamans don't use 2h's anymore.

This would get rid of the insanely rare agility staves/2 h's. The same thing was done for DK tanks. They wouldn't be using a shield, so they compensate for the lack of a shield in other ways, through spells/passive/abilities/ The same with Druid tanks. Its not as crazy as you think.

I see your argument about some classes would require 1 less slot, and that is something I hadn't thought of. I currently have no response to it. I wouldn't think it'd be a huge deal to be honest. People who dual wield, or use a 1h/shield already have more than people who use staves anyway.

I don't care about the stat stick thing. That other guy was the one whining about it, and scolding me for saying it or "implying" it at all.

Fine point on relic special stats. But most relics weren't that great. In cata, I don't think any of them even had things like that any more. It was just a place holder for more stats and a free gem slot. They didn't show, didn't do anything by cata, they didn't even drop in raids.

About relics. They changed the mechanic because too often people would sit a few raiding tiers behind. I remember I used the ToC Relic for a while since I could Flash of Light until the cows came home and it gave a nice buff to it. I was pretty pissed about the move away from them. I get the point that it meant that people who used them had to buy them pretty much and that prior to Wrath people had to rely on drops which ruined loot tables. Say Relics and Librims drops from a boss and cock all of us could even use it. Rather I say give every class a secondary item bought with Valour and keep the dynamic upgrade it give. A stacking Strength buff for each Slam cast or whatever. It helped change things up and give some flavour.

I'll agree that it would break the flow of the expansion if it was brought out now. It would make a nice change though. I'm so tired of a stupid Agility Axe dropping for my Fury Warrior to disenchant.

The reason I like mine more than yours stems most from keeping the loot table open. As is Monks can use Staves, Polearms, 1h Swords/Maces/Axes and Fists with Druids using Staves, Polearms, 2h Maces. These are already usable by everyone and letting both Druids and everyone else keep and use these items gearing is easier also gives a better chance that you won't go an entire patch without an upgrade.

Sadly I also think that retuning the attacks would be clunky. The trial period of "Holy crap Batman I got hit like a train going at Mach 4k!" or "I Love to tickle my foes to death" wouldn't even exist. Also avoiding people complaining/letting Blizzard play with numbers is something I feel is better. While they have gotten things right they have also broken us.

I'd say classes keeping weapons will always be there. Letting a class pick which of the items per tier may come about if they think about it.

He slipped out of his royal garments, left eternity to enter time, divinity to wrap himself in humanity.
The sea of glass, for the ocean of separation. He left peace, and for the first time felt pain.
Because the very hands that held the stars were now sentenced to wear my scars.