Zen Buddhism. The Bardo is incomprehesible except as fleeting lights, differentiated only by colors. There is no heaven or hell there, only energies of various frequencies, some of which present values in distinct qualities/quantities.

Jerkey ... you do know that Zen emanates from a different fountain than Buddhism ... unless of course Buddhism emanates from the same fountain as Zen.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Zen Buddhism. The Bardo is incomprehesible except as fleeting lights, differentiated only by colors. There is no heaven or hell there, only energies of various frequencies, some of which present values in distinct qualities/quantities.

Jerkey ... you do know that Zen emanates from a different fountain than Buddhism ... unless of course Buddhism emanates from the same fountain as Zen.

Some argue that Zen emanates from Taoist thought ... suppose the history is a bit murky ... some legends have Lao Tzu ... considered by many to be the father of Taoism ... yet ... some scholars believe the genesis of Lao Tzu thought is a priori ... perhaps as much as 2,000 years before the time of Lao Tzu.

Legend also has it that Lao Tzu opted for voluntary exile ... into Tibet ... Nepal borders Tibet and recent archaeological discoveries claim Nepal to be Buddha's birthplace ... murky waters for sure.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Without going out of the doorOne may know all-under-the-skyWithout looking through the windowOne may see the Dao of HeavenThe further one goesThe less one knowsTherefore the sage knows without going aboutUnderstands without seeingAnd accomplishes without taking action

Commentary by Wang Keping

"What Lao tzu describes here may remind the reader of the experience of Sakyamuni, the founder of Buddhism, who once sat under a tree in meditation for 48 days and nights.It was on the evening of the 49th day that he finally gained an insight into truth and causality for over three generations ahead."

This also may explained why the Chinese viewed Buddhism as a brother ... more than a stranger ... and assimilated some of it into Confucianism and Taoism when it first entered Chinese territory. Contrast this response from the Chinese to Buddhism with the Chinese reaction to Christianity.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Without going out of the doorOne may know all-under-the-skyWithout looking through the window

This seems to be clearly wrong. Unless we interpret the word 'all' as referring only to some limited 'important' knowledge. Obviously you don't suddenly know everything when you become a sage ... you don't automatically know Swahili or other 'mundane' things.

And even if it was true, how would the sage know that he knows all without going out and testing his knowledge in the outside world? He could be wrong. He was wrong before he was a sage. How does he know that he is a flawless sage now?

Yeah. Apocalypticists have lost faith and hope in the modern world. Some wanted Trump to win the presidential election because they believed he would bring about the cataclysm necessary to fulfill the prophesies of the Book of Revelation and thus precipitate the second coming of Christ.

Without going out of the doorOne may know all-under-the-skyWithout looking through the window

This seems to be clearly wrong. Unless we interpret the word 'all' as referring only to some limited 'important' knowledge. Obviously you don't suddenly know everything when you become a sage ... you don't automatically know Swahili or other 'mundane' things.

And even if it was true, how would the sage know that he knows all without going out and testing his knowledge in the outside world? He could be wrong. He was wrong before he was a sage. How does he know that he is a flawless sage now?

Phyllo ... your brutal attachment to pragmatism ... not a bad thing ... may create a "veil" that prevents you from considering a bigger picture.

For example ... have you ever asked yourself ... "Who is the sage in the Dao De Jing?" Can you see the "face" of the Dali Lama in the sage?

" However, the Sage in Dao De Jing is a somewhat mysteriouscharacter. For thousands of years, people have different ideas about him. Some believed theSage was a nameless historic figure, others thought he was only an imaginary model under LaoZi’s pen, still others asserted that it was impossible for such a perfect person to live in thisworld. No one had ever linked this Sage in Dao De Jing with Christ in the Bible. When paperson this historic link first appeared in recent years, there was a strong reaction, especiallyamong Chinese intellectuals. Most of them gave a snort of contempt at such a bold imagination.Their first response is: how could a Chinese Sage have something to do with a Western God?

Surely, their puzzlement is understandable. Unless you have made a careful study andcomparison of both Scriptures, you cannot convince yourself of the conclusion.In Dao De Jing, over thirty places mentioned the Sage, his remark and action. He is seenhere and there beginning from chapter 2 to 81, which is the last chapter. If you join all hisremarks and actions in a logical way and compare them with those of Jesus, you will find thatthey are ingeniously matched. The Sage in Dao De Jing is the reincarnation of Dao"

Written by Zhou Pei Yi in 2004

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Yeah. Apocalypticists have lost faith and hope in the modern world. Some wanted Trump to win the presidential election because they believed he would bring about the cataclysm necessary to fulfill the prophesies of the Book of Revelation and thus precipitate the second coming of Christ.

The word Apocalypse is one of those incredibly complex concepts.

Most users of the word likely see it as a synonym for Armageddon ... feel comfortable with the association of catastrophe ... annihilation of humanity and planet.

For me ... there is enough wiggle room for alternative explanations.

For example ... what would an apocalyptic metamorphosis of human consciousness look like?

Apparently the word apocalypse stems from the Greek language.

An apocalypse (Ancient Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apokálypsis, from ἀπό and καλύπτω, literally meaning "an uncovering") is a disclosure of knowledge or revelation. In religious contexts it is usually a disclosure of something hidden, "a vision of heavenly secrets that can make sense of earthly realities".

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

This behavior created a relentless cycle of action ... reaction. When desired results were not achieved the action/reaction turned hostile and violent. The hostility and violence has persistently increased ... both in scope and damage.

There is a subtle difference between the Western Psyche and the Chinese Psyche. While not always perceptible the kernel of the Chinese Psyche is non-action ... the Chinese expression for this phenomenon is called Wu Wei.

Super Chakra expressed the intent of Wu Wei as: ... paraphrasing

"Rather than trying to make things happen, you sit in the back seat and observe yourself doing things without motivation, effort or stress."

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

This behavior created a relentless cycle of action ... reaction. When desired results were not achieved the action/reaction turned hostile and violent. The hostility and violence has persistently increased ... both in scope and damage.

There is a subtle difference between the Western Psyche and the Chinese Psyche. While not always perceptible the kernel of the Chinese Psyche is non-action ... the Chinese expression for this phenomenon is called Wu Wei.

Which is why the West advanced scientifically and technologically, while China stagnated.

The outward focus produces progress.

The questions that remain : Is there psychological progress of individuals in the West? and Is it the same, better or worse than the psychological progress of individuals in China?

This behavior created a relentless cycle of action ... reaction. When desired results were not achieved the action/reaction turned hostile and violent. The hostility and violence has persistently increased ... both in scope and damage.

There is a subtle difference between the Western Psyche and the Chinese Psyche. While not always perceptible the kernel of the Chinese Psyche is non-action ... the Chinese expression for this phenomenon is called Wu Wei.

Which is why the West advanced scientifically and technologically, while China stagnated.

The outward focus produces progress.

The questions that remain : Is there psychological progress of individuals in the West? and Is it the same, better or worse than the psychological progress of individuals in China?

Phyllo ... surely there exists a practical explanation of Western progress and Chinese stagnation.

So many Western scholars/intellectuals marvel at how feudalism survived in China for 2,000 years or so. A valid question ... particularly in light of what was happening in the West at the same time.

The answer may be as I stated in my last post ... the kernel of the Chinese Psyche is non-action.

Let me take the statement ... surely there exists a practical explanation of Western progress and Chinese stagnation to a more abstract level of thought ... purely hypothetical of course.

China and the Chinese have been "treading water" ... have been in a "holding pattern" ... for a considerably long time. Why?

Perhaps waiting for the West to catch up spiritually.

Surely that last sentence will elicit a snort of contempt.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Phyllo ... surely there exists a practical explanation of Western progress and Chinese stagnation.

The explanation seems to be the outward emphasis of Western religion and philosophy. The Western God produces an ordered world and mankind is allowed to use and change it through action.

The Eastern religions and philosophies emphasize changing oneself rather than the world. The world is not so ordered and understandable.

China and the Chinese have been "treading water" ... have been in a "holding pattern" ... for a considerably long time. Why?

Perhaps waiting for the West to catch up spiritually.

Surely that last sentence will elicit a snort of contempt.

Is it ahead spiritually? You give no reasons why we should think so. Any evidence to support that idea?

I posted this in Manni's OP this morning ... have you read it?

In the West ... and the Middle East ... Scripture requires the support of temples, churches, synagogues, mosques ... and a hierarchy of leadership.

In China ... the temple, church, synagogue and mosque ... are within. ergo: the Dao resides within the individual.

The Dao De Jing embodies two tenets ... the "Dao" ... and "Dao De".

While very few Chinese people understand the "scripture" of the Dao ... virtually all Chinese children are taught the expression "Dao De" .

In the NT Jesus tells us the "Kingdom of God is Within" ... why the need for churches and hierarchy of leadership.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Without looking through the windowOne may see the Dao of HeavenThe further one goes

The less one knowsTherefore the sage knows without going aboutUnderstands without seeing

And accomplishes without taking action

Commentary by Wang Keping

[quote]"What Lao tzu describes here may remind the reader of the experience of Sakyamuni, the founder of Buddhism, who once sat under a tree in meditation for 48 days and nights.It was on the evening of the 49th day that he finally gained an insight into truth and causality for over three generations ahead."

This also may explained why the Chinese viewed Buddhism as a brother ... more than a stranger ... and assimilated some of it into Confucianism and Taoism when it first entered Chinese territory. Contrast this response from the Chinese to Buddhism with the Chinese reaction to Christianity.[/quote]

Some may find fault with the above, and fault can be found with it in terms of what we in the western world consider a journey, but we experience outer directional journeys, because the trend is going out. Inner journeys are untrustworthy because of lack of how we define verification. The influence of the east was much more prevelant in early western thought, and in the east the movement away from it , caused by technological displacement is much less noticeable.

But eventually, regardless, the original authority will have less relevance, and futurism may truncate it where, to the point where causation will break the chain , and changes will occur. This is why tracing the successive forms is so muddy. Zen insists the chain to be unbroken, it is only our knowledge that's lacking.

Thanks for the paraphrase, very much, for me, it was a jewel of confirmation of interitoriality, of those missing pieces, which can not be outwardly confirmed.

In China ... the temple, church, synagogue and mosque ... are within. ergo: the Dao resides within the individual.

The Dao De Jing embodies two tenets ... the "Dao" ... and "Dao De".

While very few Chinese people understand the "scripture" of the Dao ... virtually all Chinese children are taught the expression "Dao De" .

Are you not the one who keeps saying that very few have a spiritual understanding?

Are you saying that the Chinese do?

Again, what is your evidence? How is this Chinese spirituality manifested?

Phyllo ... I would have to write a rather long book to describe my experiences ... experiences that triggered intuitions ... for my 11 years in China ... all of which included being married to a Chine woman with roots in the peasant class.

Perhaps a few data references may help:

1) About 50% of Chinese people are still rural.

2) A significant percentage of urban Chinese people are first generation removed from the rural class.

3) Chinese peasantry has never acquired a taste for organized religion ... never in the history of China ... despite being endorsed by several emperors ... Qinglong comes to mind.

4) Mao Zedong was visibly and persistently aversive to any form of organized religion ... yet his mother was a devout Buddhist. Yet when sister death was knocking on Mao Zedong's door he is quoted as saying "God is calling me".

5) Chinese society ... 1.3 billion people ... has social problems/challenges ... yet recent social unrest has been spotty ... and you will have a hard time finding a police person carrying a gun.

6) Apparently 17-18th century ... the time of Enlightenment ... around the time of Leibniz ... European scholars/intellects ... asked themselves ... how is it that such a sophisticated civilization (Cathay/China) could evolved without organized religion. The Tang Dynasty is considered the Golden Age by some ... at the same time Europe was experiencing the Dark Age.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Interesting, just a conjecture, or maybe even some kind of synch . Was thinking about Lejbnitz around the same time, married to an Asian woman all my life. But Liebnit'z idea of perfect spherical spheres, after all mathematically untenable apart from limits to absolute curvature-means the gaps in the chains of being are only relative to the various functional equivalents, whereas verification being impossible. This is why absolute authority fails, except by a set up of kindred master-tutor lineage. In that case, the pronouncements, as fragmented as they are, in Koans, do not need functional equivalents. The master passes down the knowledge the same way Leibnitz was able to understand a proto atomism handed down by the Greeks.

jerkey wrote:Interesting, just a conjecture, or maybe even some kind of synch . Was thinking about Lejbnitz around the same time, married to an Asian woman all my life. But Liebnit'z idea of perfect spherical spheres, after all mathematically untenable apart from limits to absolute curvature-means the gaps in the chains of being are only relative to the various functional equivalents, whereas verification being impossible. This is why absolute authority fails, except by a set up of kindred master-tutor lineage. In that case, the pronouncements, as fragmented as they are, in Koans, do not need functional equivalents. The master passes down the knowledge the same way Leibnitz was able to understand a proto atomism handed down by the Greeks.

Seems Leibnitz is another enigma. He was one of the first ... perhaps the first European mathematician/scholar ... to receive the Chinese book ... the I Ching ... claimed by some as the oldest book on earth. He received a copy of the book ... probably translated into Latin from Joacquim Bouvet ... a Jesuit missionary in China ... successor to Matteo Ricci. Apparently Bouvet's theory known as the figurists ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figurism ... tickled his curiosity as well.

How much of Leibnitz's intellectual output stems from the I Ching ... murky waters indeed!

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

jerkey wrote:Yes if good and evil are seen as opposites, or even as approximately so.

If enlightenment is a good in it's self, and the goal a culture, a society of an individual sets for himself, then its opposite or it's hindrance to attain is what bad.

It's like saying, that as a runner, it is good to have the goal of trying to make it to the finish line, but giving up on that goal isn't.

Good and evil objectively is difficult to define for earthly nonsubtke attempts and effects, but for subtle things it may be even harder, for lack of a well defined system of achievement.

Enlightenment is most difficult since it does beg the definition of something beyond which there is no compare in goodness. It is Goodness per se, it is the enlightenment of being in a state which needs no further elucidation of being in it's self. It becomes complete. Any hindrance to that effect is evil incarnate, as goodness incarnate is similar in the absolute. There is in that level, either good, or, evil. There is no compromise, no excuses, no grey area.

The only grey area hel by any truly organized religion can be found in Catholicism, where purgatory serves that purpose. The buddhic sense of the bardos are much more sensible, since they are primarily shades of grey, where passage from one to the other seems dimunitive and unobservable to those passing through.

Like the idea of Judgment Day, karma through multiple lives seems to be the result of the psychological need for justice where justice is not evident in the empirical world.

Whether or not God is actually evolving or changing, the concept of God is. In fact, there is archaeological evidence that suggests that before people believed in God, they believed in Goddess. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_goddess In other words before God was symbolized as male, as in the Bible, God was imagined to be female.

jerkey wrote:Yes if good and evil are seen as opposites, or even as approximately so.

If enlightenment is a good in it's self, and the goal a culture, a society of an individual sets for himself, then its opposite or it's hindrance to attain is what bad.

It's like saying, that as a runner, it is good to have the goal of trying to make it to the finish line, but giving up on that goal isn't.

Good and evil objectively is difficult to define for earthly nonsubtke attempts and effects, but for subtle things it may be even harder, for lack of a well defined system of achievement.

Enlightenment is most difficult since it does beg the definition of something beyond which there is no compare in goodness. It is Goodness per se, it is the enlightenment of being in a state which needs no further elucidation of being in it's self. It becomes complete. Any hindrance to that effect is evil incarnate, as goodness incarnate is similar in the absolute. There is in that level, either good, or, evil. There is no compromise, no excuses, no grey area.

The only grey area hel by any truly organized religion can be found in Catholicism, where purgatory serves that purpose. The buddhic sense of the bardos are much more sensible, since they are primarily shades of grey, where passage from one to the other seems dimunitive and unobservable to those passing through.

Like the idea of Judgment Day, karma through multiple lives seems to be the result of the psychological need for justice where justice is not evident in the empirical world.

True, but psychological need does not necessarily detract from the idea of long term goal conscious goal setting. And since that goal may be forgotten or revise for accommodating imminent perceptions, does not change the fact that perceptions have motive, self realization and effect in simultenious, transcendent realms of experience.

Therefore the imminent psychology does not contradict it's origin: . That IT has been cut away, does not mean that IT is not there.

The mistake the logicians of the Middle Ages made was denying variable interpretations, and seekingHIS identity in terms of either/or, male/female, is/isn't.They probably understood the changing aspects of the way adherents could understand, but they did not figure the extremely sudden development of the Enlightenement.