It is just silly that there is a debate about the possibility of one of the least successfull teams in Formula 1 firing one of the best Team Managers in the sport. I keep looking at McLaren and marvelling at the difference between the perspectives of their Board vis-a-vis that of Mercedes!

It is just silly that there is a debate about the possibility of one of the least successfull teams in Formula 1 firing one of the best Team Managers in the sport. I keep looking at McLaren and marvelling at the difference between the perspectives of their Board vis-a-vis that of Mercedes!

Mercedes has been more successful than McLaren in the past 4 years, and more importantly in 2013 as well.

Well, he did. You see, the way Mclaren handle their pay deals, is that they spread the money out over the period of the contract disproportionately. So, say Hamilton has a 5 year 75m contract, that's 15m a year. However, the first year is only worth 7.5m, the second 10, the third, etc, etc, etc. In Hamiltons last year, Mclaren paid him £25m.

Well, he did. You see, the way Mclaren handle their pay deals, is that they spread the money out over the period of the contract disproportionately. So, say Hamilton has a 5 year 75m contract, that's 15m a year. However, the first year is only worth 7.5m, the second 10, the third, etc, etc, etc. In Hamiltons last year, Mclaren paid him £25m.

They do it to try and ensure drivers see out their contracts.

That's a backloaded contract. Makes sense when you sign a contract extension worth £75m at age 22, as you would expect to hit your prime at age 27-28, hence the later years of your contract properly reflecting your relative value.

I'm going to hazard a guess here that he's including the Brawn GP year.

Edit: Yes he did.

As I am sure the previous poster included Tyrrell and BAR in his assessment. It's only fair we include Brawn GP, especially as it's very recent and the MGP cars have been influenced directly by the BGP cars.

That's a backloaded contract. Makes sense when you sign a contract extension worth £75m at age 22, as you would expect to hit your prime at age 27-28, hence the later years of your contract properly reflecting your relative value.

It's not done due to age, all Mclaren contracts have been like that for years, IIRC.

Still trying to work out how Merc have been more successful in the 3 full seasons they have been a team.

Whilst they were called BGP. Brackley-based, same team director, likely same mechanics and engineers (aside from head engineers).

In the end, success is determined by titles, not by wins or poles. People will remember RBR for sweeping 2010-12; Nobody cares how many poles or wins McLaren won in 2012; some people might remember that they had the fastest car and blew it - and most importantly, that RBR picked up the pieces yet again and won the titles.

Whilst they were called BGP. Brackley-based, same team director, likely same mechanics and engineers (aside from head engineers).

In the end, success is determined by titles, not by wins or poles. People will remember RBR for sweeping 2010-12; Nobody cares how many poles or wins McLaren won in 2012; some people might remember that they had the fastest car and blew it - and most importantly, that RBR picked up the pieces yet again and won the titles.

IMHO Merc still have no claim to any titles as they were not the owners of the team at that time.

Now you said Merc have been more successful than Mac. How are you determining that success? AFAIC they finished below Mac in the charts and that equals less successful. To try and bluff that the titles are the only measure of success is complete red herring.

I think he means the team, not the owners have had more success. Ross Brawn and his team have had more success full stop. Part of that success is finding owners with big funding, gaining new staff and a top driver

IMHO Merc still have no claim to any titles as they were not the owners of the team at that time.

Now you said Merc have been more successful than Mac. How are you determining that success? AFAIC they finished below Mac in the charts and that equals less successful. To try and bluff that the titles are the only measure of success is complete red herring.

Poles and wins are just that. Poles and wins. They help you win titles. Teams would trade off poles and wins (in non-title winning seasons) for titles in a heartbeat (McLaren 2005, 2007, 2012).

Merc may not have any claim to BGP's success, fair enough (though it's definitely arguable). However, so far this year (most important year regarding our discussion) they have by far been the most successful team, with one of their drivers outscoring the entire Woking-based outfit.

Poles and wins are just that. Poles and wins. They help you win titles. Teams would trade off poles and wins (in non-title winning seasons) for titles in a heartbeat (McLaren 2005, 2007, 2012).

Merc may not have any claim to BGP's success, fair enough (though it's definitely arguable). However, so far this year (most important year regarding our discussion) they have by far been the most successful team, with one of their drivers outscoring the entire Woking-based outfit.

Too right they would, but that has nothing to do with your previous claim. I also agree that so far this year Merc have been better, but you said they had been the most successful over the last 4 (Only 3 really). This is just incorrect and you appear to be trying diversion tactics rather than backing up that claim.

I think he means the team, not the owners have had more success. Ross Brawn and his team have had more success full stop. Part of that success is finding owners with big funding, gaining new staff and a top driver

He said Merc have had more success, not Brawn and his team. And that only works if you falsely attribute BGP's success as a Merc one.

Poles and wins are just that. Poles and wins. They help you win titles. Teams would trade off poles and wins (in non-title winning seasons) for titles in a heartbeat (McLaren 2005, 2007, 2012).

Merc may not have any claim to BGP's success, fair enough (though it's definitely arguable). However, so far this year (most important year regarding our discussion) they have by far been the most successful team, with one of their drivers outscoring the entire Woking-based outfit.

wow and all of this from ex Lewis and McLaren supporter it's really sad to see how you bad-mouthing the team that you used to support while Lewis was there and probably the team that you'll have to support again in the future when Lewis returns. Now you support Mercedes because of Lewis and that is fine but don't try to praise Mercedes every time and to hate/bad-mouthing McLaren every time. That is really low from you and not right at all...

I really cannot understand some of LH fans and their hate towards McLaren it is like he never drove for them, like he never had good times with them, like McLaren was/is some scary, bad wolf and Lewis was/is some victim, a sheep You know what's even funnier..that even Lewis himself has nothing but love for his old team and his old boss(es)

Too right they would, but that has nothing to do with your previous claim. I also agree that so far this year Merc have been better, but you said they had been the most successful over the last 4 (Only 3 really). This is just incorrect and you appear to be trying diversion tactics rather than backing up that claim.

It's more a clever manipulation of the facts... though, let's be honest, it's not that big a stretch as you make it look like.

wow and all of this from ex Lewis and McLaren supporter it's really sad to see how you bad-mouthing the team that you used to support while Lewis was there and probably the team that you'll have to support again in the future when Lewis returns. Now you support Mercedes because of Lewis and that is fine but don't try to praise Mercedes every time and to hate/bad-mouthing McLaren every time. That is really low from you and not right at all...

I really cannot understand some of LH fans and their hate towards McLaren it is like he never drove for them, like he never had good times with them, like McLaren was/is some scary, bad wolf and Lewis was/is some victim, a sheep You know what's even funnier..that even Lewis himself has nothing but love for his old team and his old boss(es)

I'm indifferent to McLaren just as I was when Hamilton was driving for them, but I don't think the bolded is true. You can't square such a lovey dovey statement with, for example, Hamilton telling Brundle he simply had to get out of McLaren. Maybe he has nothing but love for them now he isn't there, but it's pretty clear that all was not well.

I'm indifferent to McLaren just as I was when Hamilton was driving for them, but I don't think the bolded is true. You can't square such a lovey dovey statement with, for example, Hamilton telling Brundle he simply had to get out of McLaren. Maybe he has nothing but love for them now he isn't there, but it's pretty clear that all was not well.

I think it has more to do with senior management than all the folks, but you are right that we can't disregard the incident Lewis described to Brundle. I am sure Lewis has great relationships with a lot of the McLaren staff, but like for everyone else, he probably has less friendly relationships with other staff members at McLaren.

Recent events at McLaren seem to suggest there have been Board Room wars for quite sometime. It can point to a possible struggle between Whitmarsh and Ron which could have spilt over to the drivers and senior management. There maybe more to Hamilton's move than meets the eye.

I think he means the team, not the owners have had more success. Ross Brawn and his team have had more success full stop. Part of that success is finding owners with big funding, gaining new staff and a top driver

Budget for 2013 was not increased of the 2012 level. Level of resources however was for this newly formed team. That's what Hamilton has, and Schumacher did not.

I think he means the team, not the owners have had more success. Ross Brawn and his team have had more success full stop. Part of that success is finding owners with big funding, gaining new staff and a top driver

I would say the success is less about new owners and more about the restructuring undertaken by Ross Brawn in 2012

Ross always says performance is power, and this is how you are being measured. Even though the story about Paddy was a lot in the media, we are trying to have a rational proactive way of structuring our management with no knee-jerk decisions. What we have discussed internally is all under control. Ross is in that role now and he is very efficient in that role now. But you need to look ahead. That doesn't mean that Ross is not going to be with us, not at all, but we will probably strengthen the organisation with other people.

(Bolding mine)

Hmmn, run that through the management bullshit decoder ring and it sounds an awful lot like "As soon as I can get away with it, I'm demoting Ross and installing Paddy Lowe"

Hmmn, run that through the management bullshit decoder ring and it sounds an awful lot like "As soon as I can get away with it, I'm demoting Ross and installing Paddy Lowe"

I don't agree, it is another way of saying what had been said earlier - Ross had agreed to a successor but that won't happen until Ross decides to step down (more or less). I also think it is an indirect confirmation that PL will join Merc.

The question is what will be his role until Ross decides to step down or up?

Hmmn, run that through the management bullshit decoder ring and it sounds an awful lot like "As soon as I can get away with it, I'm demoting Ross and installing Paddy Lowe"

I think the concern at Merc is for Ross Braun leaving the team, not the team pushing him out and replacing him with Paddy. When Ross and Fry sold out to Mercedes, they cashed in a lot of chips and part of the agreement will have been a tie in - binding Ross to the team for a few years with golden handcuffs if you like.'Heres your cash for the company, but you stay around and run it for long enough that we can get our own guy doing the same job well'Remember Ross no longer owns any shares, so he has no real risk if the team works out or not.So its Merc who are just being sensible about making sure that if the rainmaker - Ross, leaves because he gets bored or fed up, then their investment is safe in the hands of someone with a certain amount of experience.

And all the recent talk about him leaving are likely to be that the tie in period has/is coming to an end.

You dont replace guys like Ross especially when they are bringing results and have the backing of your star driver

Merc just better hope he doesnt feel like rising to a new challenge, like bringing an ailing British team back to the front of the grid

Hmmn, run that through the management bullshit decoder ring and it sounds an awful lot like "As soon as I can get away with it, I'm demoting Ross and installing Paddy Lowe"

My impression from the various stories and utterances from Wolf over the last few months is that he has been impressed with Ross. Whether he was expecting not to be prior to joining I'm not sure, he has consistently said he wants to understand and evaluate the existing team and structure before considering changes. Where that leaves Lowe is hard and quite why moves were made before he had a chance to complete (or even start) that evaluation is hard to say.

I don't agree, it is another way of saying what had been said earlier - Ross had agreed to a successor but that won't happen until Ross decides to step down (more or less). I also think it is an indirect confirmation that PL will join Merc.

Well, this is very much one of those situations where I'm happy to be wrong because being right here would suck hugely.

The question is what will be his role until Ross decides to step down or up?

That is indeed a very good question. Although maybe in a way it doesn't matter if it's just a placeholder title anyway.

You dont replace guys like Ross especially when they are bringing results and have the backing of your star driver

Merc just better hope he doesnt feel like rising to a new challenge, like bringing an ailing British team back to the front of the grid

Yes, that would be very odd, like some giant episode of Wife Swap.

I'd been wondering about what part, if any, Hamilton had been playing in the boardroom squabbling (assuming for a second that squabbling there *is*, of course.) For instance, though I couldn't imagine Lauda, Wolff et al sitting down and seeking his counsel over who'd do a better job of running the team, Ross or Paddy, I *could* imagine it throwing a spanner in their works if Lewis made it abundantly clear that he wasn't happy with the proposed changes at the top. Like, rattled enough to start not driving so well level rattled.

I'd been wondering about what part, if any, Hamilton had been playing in the boardroom squabbling (assuming for a second that squabbling there *is*, of course.) For instance, though I couldn't imagine Lauda, Wolff et al sitting down and seeking his counsel over who'd do a better job of running the team, Ross or Paddy, I *could* imagine it throwing a spanner in their works if Lewis made it abundantly clear that he wasn't happy with the proposed changes at the top. Like, rattled enough to start not driving so well level rattled.

I can't imagine Lewis' driving coming into it but I feel pretty sure from what we've heard that Lewis has backed Brawn, and he is bound to have influence.

I'd think there must be quite a lot of dead wood at Brackley after the big slim-down when the best people will have been able to find places at other teams, so I could well see Toto having a bit of a clear-out that didn't include Brawn.

All I meant was I could see Wolff/Lauda paying attention *if* Lewis seemed really hell-bent on the team keeping Ross if he was an important element in making the move to Mercedes in the first place. Not because I imagine they give a rat's ass about how happy Lewis is per se, but because a really pissed-off Lewis would probably equal shittier driving.

There are a hell of a lot of 'if' statements in the above, I know. Just stuff I was wondering about.

All I meant was I could see Wolff/Lauda paying attention *if* Lewis seemed really hell-bent on the team keeping Ross if he was an important element in making the move to Mercedes in the first place. Not because I imagine they give a rat's ass about how happy Lewis is per se, but because a really pissed-off Lewis would probably equal shittier driving.

There are a hell of a lot of 'if' statements in the above, I know. Just stuff I was wondering about.

There's this on Formual1.com:"Q: Are you surprised that Lewis Hamilton has advocated Ross so strongly?TW: No, not at all. Everybody has the highest esteem for Ross and I would be completely mistaken were I to question Ross’ technical skills - someone who has won seven or eight titles. Who am I in this respect? I have been in Formula One for only three years. So I completely agree with every word Lewis said."

Lewis is the star, a key piece in the puzzle of taking on the top 4 teams, and he comes from Paddy of course. He'll have a lot of influence. As you say Lewis came FOR Brawn in many ways. Plus people listen to stars, and as we all know Lewis is not one to sit on the sidelines waiting for permission to speak lol.

But I don't see his driving being affected one way or the other. I think his influence will be just be the fact that he is who he is, knows Lowe, and he is a strong character who people listen to. A galvanising force. F1 is so much about teams, Toto will want everyone on board if he can and that'll apply especially to the highest profile person he has.

I still think he will be at Merc in some capacity or another particularly as Wolff hasn't completely ruled out replacing Brawn with him, however he always has Williams as a back up option which according to rumours was his original plan.

I still think he will be at Merc in some capacity or another particularly as Wolff hasn't completely ruled out replacing Brawn with him, however he always has Williams as a back up option which according to rumours was his original plan.

From where we sit, it looks like he has been left out in the cold. By whomever PL was personally poached to leave Mc. He fell on his axx between two stools, so to say. I still find the Autosport+ article and some Brawn statements relevant - or reveling, if you wish - . PL is a succession plan in case Brawn leaves the team. He is to work beside Brawn to learn the ropes - if he joins at all. It really does look like the person -or persons - who were behind the PL move had a distorted idea of what exactly the situation at Merc was. PL is not in the same league as Brawn. Wolff seems to have realized that in a few weeks.

Hmmn, run that through the management bullshit decoder ring and it sounds an awful lot like "As soon as I can get away with it, I'm demoting Ross and installing Paddy Lowe"

Unfortunately I agree. I am baffled at this debate. How ironic that a team of Mercedes's lowly stature is considering the firing of a highly acclaimed team principal such as Ross Brawn! In my opinion if teams like McLaren are not having similar considerations then Mercedes are better advised to take their focus away from the replacement of their team boss.

I still think he will be at Merc in some capacity or another particularly as Wolff hasn't completely ruled out replacing Brawn with him, however he always has Williams as a back up option which according to rumours was his original plan.

Actually some apprenticeship as TP at Williams would be great for everyone including PL himself.

I still think he will be at Merc in some capacity or another particularly as Wolff hasn't completely ruled out replacing Brawn with him, however he always has Williams as a back up option which according to rumours was his original plan.

www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107160

From the above article looks like Mercedes has definitely hired PL so we can rule Williams out as a back up plan. Ross also looks quite secure in his role for at least this year. If his restructuring is successful then it will be that more difficult for Toto to corporate politik him out as TP. In which case PL stays in a role very similar to what he had at McLaren. However if the restructuring does not work and the team doesn't sort its tyre problems and lags in the development race, then I would expect a very bumpy ride for Ross in 2014 and probably his replacement by 2015 if the team doesn’t atleast improve to top 3 or 2 in 2014.

From the above article looks like Mercedes has definitely hired PL so we can rule Williams out as a back up plan. Ross also looks quite secure in his role for at least this year. If his restructuring is successful then it will be that more difficult for Toto to corporate politik him out as TP. In which case PL stays in a role very similar to what he had at McLaren. However if the restructuring does not work and the team doesn't sort its tyre problems and lags in the development race, then I would expect a very bumpy ride for Ross in 2014 and probably his replacement by 2015 if the team doesn’t atleast improve to top 3 or 2 in 2014.

The way things are at Merc, I don't see the need to replace Ross, least of all by PL. This century, Mclaren have onlh won the title once and recently, their best result was 3rd. When these are lined up against the resources at that team's disposal, it doesn't make for soaring entries in PL's cv.

I am glad he was hired by Merc, I am sure they will find very good use for him. I am also glad that they have at least deprived Mclaren of his services which they apparently value so much. Weakening your opponent and stregthening yourself is a winning tactic anytime.

From where we sit, it looks like he has been left out in the cold. By whomever PL was personally poached to leave Mc. He fell on his axx between two stools, so to say. I still find the Autosport+ article and some Brawn statements relevant - or reveling, if you wish - . PL is a succession plan in case Brawn leaves the team. He is to work beside Brawn to learn the ropes - if he joins at all. It really does look like the person -or persons - who were behind the PL move had a distorted idea of what exactly the situation at Merc was. PL is not in the same league as Brawn. Wolff seems to have realized that in a few weeks.

PL is indeed a succession plan and as a shareholder Toto has a big say in the plan. Great and experienced team principals aren't exactly on the sidelines waiting for jobs to poaching a prospect before you need to replace your existing team principal is critical - and it's a key political piece for Toto in getting a one-up on Brawn. Without a successor lined up, Brawn can practically do whatever he feels like in the team because he knows the team can't sack him due to there not being a suitable successor. Further more if Mercedes is to grow to become a legendary team then they need a culture, and a culture cannot be built around just one leader.

I'd been wondering about what part, if any, Hamilton had been playing in the boardroom squabbling (assuming for a second that squabbling there *is*, of course.) For instance, though I couldn't imagine Lauda, Wolff et al sitting down and seeking his counsel over who'd do a better job of running the team, Ross or Paddy, I *could* imagine it throwing a spanner in their works if Lewis made it abundantly clear that he wasn't happy with the proposed changes at the top. Like, rattled enough to start not driving so well level rattled.