MARYLAND Transit Authority Police Harass Open Carrier in VIRGINIA

This is a discussion on MARYLAND Transit Authority Police Harass Open Carrier in VIRGINIA within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Story from vagunforum.net via VCDL ALLERT, with comments from Philip Van Cleave <philip@virginiasystems.com> VCDL President
MARYLAND Transit Authority Police Harass Open Carrier in VIRGINIA
Park!
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Rick Sandlin, administrator of the Virginia Gun Owners Forum, describes an unusual and disturbing encounter with a Maryland Transit Authority (MTA) police officer while he was open carrying. What makes this so unusual is that it happened in Virginia.

If that Maryland officer had held a law-abiding gun owner in Virginia at gun point for doing nothing illegal, there would have been hell to pay (criminal charges and a civil suit). Luckily for the officer, he
didn't do it.

So, I had some time to kill and went to the beach at the Potomac River where the Route 301 Nice Bridge crosses the river. Two kids in tow and my .38 special on my belt. We passed by a Maryland Transit Authority (MTA) car on the way to park at the beach and I thought nothing of it.

Parked the truck and we got out. The kids were looking for shells on the beach and I was wandering around with them. About 5 minutes later, I hear "Excuse me, Sir". I turned and there was the MTA deputy (or whatever they're called).

MTA: "May I see your handgun permit?"
Me: "I don't need a permit."
MTA: "And why don't you need a permit?"
Me: "I can open carry in Virginia without a permit - anyone who is legally allowed to own a firearm (no felonies, no domestic assault, etc), may carry a firearm openly in Virginia."

He let me know that he had called the local Sheriff's Office and that someone was on their way and I let him know that if he was going to sit on the Virginia side of the bridge that he should know the law. He asked me why I need to carry a gun, and I asked him why he needed to carry one. Well of course he needed one because he's a police officer and I need one because I never know what kind of freaky idiot I'm going to encounter at the scummy waters of the Potomac River.

The local deputy showed up and let the MTA guy know that I was within the law. Then they both let me know that I shouldn't be Open Carrying in the park unless I wanted to draw negative attention and that I should get a Concealed Handgun Permit. I told the county guy that I had one. When MTA guy heard that, he accused me of lying to him and telling him that I didn't have one when he asked me. I said "No, you asked to see my handgun permit, and I told you that I didn't need one to Open Carry my firearm". He pressed on that point again about me lying to him and I pressed back and he said he didn't want to argue about it.

Long story short, the local county deputy was really good about it and he let the Maryland guy know the law (which is exactly what I told him as well). The Maryland guy was pretty much a jerk about it all, essentially telling me that I shouldn't be carrying a gun in a park with my kids.

So, it was an exciting 15 minutes and my first discussion with police about my carrying of a firearm. I may have pressed the guy a little hard, but I knew he was outside his jurisdiction and that he clearly
didn't know the law. I'm glad the county deputy came and straightened it all out. Again, the deputy was really nice about everything.

Oh yeah, then after the deputy left, the MTA guy told me, "You know, when I came down here to check on you, instead of just asking to speak with you, I could have put pulled my gun and ordered you prone on the ground and put you in cuffs until the Sheriff's deputy got here." [PVC: That officer needs to be fired. His job is not to push his weight around from behind a badge and intimidate law-abiding citizens.]

I was good and kept my mouth shut about that one and just nodded my head.

I would love to know what, if any, joint/inter-jurisdictional agreement exist.

"You know, when I came down here to check on you, instead of just asking to speak with you, I could have put pulled my gun and ordered you prone on the ground and put you in cuffs until the Sheriff's deputy got here."

If true, he's just another example of those who abuse the trust given with the badge. He should realize that instead of merely rolling over and taking it up the backside, upstanding citizens can have him removed for cause, for threatening citizens and abusing the authority of the position. He should keep in mind who he works for, and why, particularly if he's going to go saying such things. It'll catch up with him, at some point.

Oh yeah, then after the deputy left, the MTA guy told me, "You know, when I came down here to check on you, instead of just asking to speak with you, I could have put pulled my gun and ordered you prone on the ground and put you in cuffs until the Sheriff's deputy got here." [PVC: That officer needs to be fired. His job is not to push his weight around from behind a badge and intimidate law-abiding citizens.]

...and the officer is glad no one like me showed up to rain on his parade...

What would happen if others armed in the area had shown up and noticed the commotion with a person in an invalid uniform ie not recognized as of this state or locality ordering around a VA citizen with children around at the point of his firearm... Can we say police impersonator...?
Before those from out of state comment, please remember we have had a LOT of those police impersonator types in VA in the past. So it tends to be in the back of my mind when someone in a uniform shows up and the uniform doesn't match anything the local leo's wear on a daily basis.

At the very least I'd be calling in to the local LE for a Police IMPERSONATOR holding a citizen at gunpoint. See how MR MTA likes that one.

"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."

You folks in Virginia need to be careful with Maryland authorities near the river. If the person in the encounter with the MTA officer stepped below the high water mark on the Virginia shore he would actually be in Maryland and subject to Maryland law.

You folks in Virginia need to be careful with Maryland authorities near the river. If the person in the encounter with the MTA officer stepped below the high water mark on the Virginia shore he would actually be in Maryland and subject to Maryland law.

Dave, you might want to make sure the folks on that other forum are aware of that little detail. The thing that has me concerned is

The kids were looking for shells on the beach and I was wandering around with them.

Depending on where they were and what was going on with the tide at the time, he may easily have crossed that threshold without even knowing it. The case would be heard in a Maryland court by a Maryland judge who would in all likelyhood find him guilty of a weapons offense that may well cost him his permit or even get him listed as a prohibited person in NICS.

Best to ask the VA AG on the exact delineation of the MD/DC/VA borders along the Potomac? I had always heard it was basically like wet foot/dry foot...kinda like little Cuba(Miami)

edit:http://www.virginiaplaces.org/bounda...dboundary.html
Interesting read on the VA/MD border. It seems the actual border was the LOW WATER mark as of the Arbitration of 1877 agreement. To make it even more interesting is that in 1927 a new survey determined that the "low water mark" does NOT necessarily follow the shore line and in some cases actually juts into the Potomac itself(under the actual water line).

and it gets even more interesting as of 1958...

The 1958 agreement established the Potomac River Fisheries Commission, defined the jurisdictional boundaries for that commission's powers (in great detail for the Maryland side of the Potomac River, but simply referencing the mean low waterline of the Potomac River on the Virginia side, as marked by the Matthews-Nelson Survey of 1927). After both the Virginia and Maryland legislatures and the Maryland voters approved the 1958 agreement, Congress affirmed it in 1962.

"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."

"Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."