(13-12-2012 10:43 AM)Impulse Wrote: Sorry, but that's not correct either. It all depends on what's in their heart. If they hear about Catholicism and follow something else because that something else is what they truly believe, it's still considered just "ignorance" and they still have a chance of making it to heaven. I think you are right though in the cases of people who have heard, but follow nothing at all (i.e., atheists).

Fail.

I hear about Catholicism and instead follow rational empirical materialist skepticism because it's what I truly believe.

The "something else" must be another deity according to Catholicism. That's what I was trying to say, but see now I didn't actually say.

The notion that people want to be slaves is born of a fundamental non-understanding of slavery. It's a perversion to invoke it flippantly. It's tantamount to saying that people want to be raped. Unless there's some sort of "good" slavery to which you're referring? Legitimate slavery perhaps?

I'd really like you to reference these other times I've gotten my hackles up when people mention slavery. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Affluent white men (those Michael Moore would refer to as stupid white men lol) have no idea what it means to be a slave; whatever variation of slave is meant or whatever time period. To be a slave is to be property against your will; regardless of the flavour of slavery. No one wants to be a slave. Someone who wants to be a slave isn't a slave specifically because they chose. They aren't slaves, they're submissive.

Hey, AtotheT.

There's no such thing as slave-like. Yes, one can be slaving, or working slavishly, but those describe actions or qualities, not a state of being. One IS a slave. To compare anything to the abject hell of being a slave as a means of scoring points is perverted.

I have no interest in having a conversation about the merits of using the term slave in the way Hitchens did. If people think it's OK, so be it. It's offensive to me, I've explained why, so people are just going to put their foots in their mouths if they try to defend Hitchens and I'd just as soon retain my illusion that you're all wonderful people Lalalalalalaala, nothing to see here

I think a lot is just perception - much like women who are called "bitches" for the very same actions for which men are called "assertive". That bias comes from prior days when women were more passive and some people still haven't gotten used to women being outspoken.

I see this in a similar way. People also aren't used to atheists taking a stand, especially the religious. Would it have been perceived as offensive if a Christian posted a picture of Jesus and the sacred heart on the billboard instead and it said "Keep the merry and Christ in Christmas"? I doubt it.

I was referring to the geographical/ethnic aspect, but I can see that you read it that way.

Quote:The notion that people want to be slaves is born of a fundamental non-understanding of slavery. It's a perversion to invoke it flippantly. It's tantamount to saying that people want to be raped. Unless there's some sort of "good" slavery to which you're referring? Legitimate slavery perhaps?

It's not about wanting to be slaves, and it is not flippant.
Your implication that I might think there is 'good' or 'legitimate' slavery is offensive.

Quote:I'd really like you to reference these other times I've gotten my hackles up when people mention slavery. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Affluent white men (those Michael Moore would refer to as stupid white men lol) have no idea what it means to be a slave; whatever variation of slave is meant or whatever time period. To be a slave is to be property against your will; regardless of the flavour of slavery. No one wants to be a slave. Someone who wants to be a slave isn't a slave specifically because they chose. They aren't slaves, they're submissive.

People may not know, but we can imagine. You do not have a privileged knowledge of slavery.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

That wouldn't be a dick move because it's a positive statement. "X is important to me/us." That's cool. The Atheist sign was taking a shot at other people. That's the dick move. Take all the stands you want, tell me all about what's important to you. Put up a big sign that says, "Enjoy the celebration of Constans' ascension to the rank of Caesar," if that's important to you. "Happy Confederate soldier clemency day!" "Have a wonderful Apollo 8 Trans Earth Injection remembrance feast." But a billboard that says, "Yeah, fuck those guys," is a dick move.

I gotta say though, I think this goes to the heart of why I think most of the Atheists advertising/media stunts I've seen are dick moves. The notion that Atheism is the default position is all fine and dandy, y'know, for an idea that's wrong, but for all intents and purposes, Atheism is really a rejection of something. Atheism, it is always pointed out, doesn't make any positive statements. So Atheist adds don't really have anything to say. There's no Science Day. No messiahs to worship. No celebration of the birth of Newton (maybe there is, but it's boring as fuck because I don't get no new ugly sweater!). So there's nothing to advertise. But there is a desire among many Atheists (as this bilboard illustrates) to reach out to people, either to show them they're not alone (which is a fine idea) or to get people to sign up. Whenever they try to put something together, the only thing they can talk about is rejecting religion and it's so easy for a plea to reject something to swing into the realm of dick move.

I feel obliged to point out the obvious (which rankles me, but it saves time) that the religious billboards posted earlier are big time dick moves for the very same reason. I'd like to think that goes without saying, but I never can be too sure

Personally I think the billboard could have been much better without being so targeted.

What's wrong with a Happy Saturnalia sign or Happy holidays no matter which one you celebrate sign?
Oh well, I'm sure they made it so brazen for the media attention it would invoke. Honestly these days you're not making a statement that matters until it pisses someone off. Otherwise it will go unnoticed and be a waste of your money.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison