Cameron's latest threat to his ministers is a variation of the back me or sack me approach. This one is back me, or I'll sack you. These negotiations were never in any doubt. Angela Merkel said bluntly a few months ago Europe would not change to suit Britain. The claim that he (Cameron) can find ways of improving the lot of all member states as well as Britain is so much moonshine. there just is no such animal.

These people, no matter whether back benchers or Ministers are our representatives. even the most arrogant and laid back of them depend on our support at the ballot box. Suppose (as should in fact be the case) the MP's have surveys at their respective surgeries before debating it in Parliament. Suppose the voters at a Ministers surgery vote overwhelmingly to leave the EU, what should s/he do? Follow the wish of the constituents, and get sacked, or ignore the wishes of the electorate. neither course being at all democratic.

I am very much afraid that we are absolutely not going to get a free, frank open, and honest debate on this. we are going to be fed whatever Cameron wants (quelle surprise) that is the course they have always followed. what we'll get is something like; following several days of tough negotiation, They have agreed to waive the restrictions on the permitted curvature of the British sausage. this is an overwhelming victory and if we stay in there are many more good things to come.

[quote="Badboy"]PERMITTED CURVATURE OF THE BRITISH SAUSAGE,WHAT THAT?[/quote

I was being more than a little facetious my friend. Pointing out that Cameron would only be able to secure any agreement on a subject that no one cares about anyway and doesn't matter a damn. I seem to remember there was some problem a while ago with the EU and the British sausage, although I was abroad at the time, so I didn't get the full tale. That's the only reason I picked on the sausage. which my wife cooks me every Saturday morning along with bacon, Scrambled egg, Mushrooms and toast. All grilled to reduce the fat content.