THE CRANE POOL FORUM thecranepool.net (.com)

For anyone who cares or wishes to get the Hot Stove going immediately, here are my out-of-the-gate thoughts on what the Mets ought to do this winter. . .

Listed in order of importance. . .

1) Trade for Manny Ramirez

-I am going on the asumption that this deal was very close to happening at the deadline, would have took place if the Devil Rays didn't back out, but could not have been rekindled in time or in enough of a way for the Red Sox to save face and get enough back for them to stay in the 2005 race. It certainly appears as if Esptien has been trying for awhile to get rid of that contract so he can spread that money around to other areas of the team. You have to expect that Omar is not going to simply forget about this. . .especially when the need for a big righthanded slugger in the middle of the lineup is so obvious and he has the salary space created by the depature of Piazza to work with. I expect Omar to agressively pursue this. Names that might go back to Boston include: Cameron/Diaz/Seo/Zambrano/Petit/Milledge.

2) Sign B.J. Ryan or Billy Wagner

-Obvious? Yes. The Mets are fortunate to have two of what they need to choose from in free agency. Ryan is significantly younger than Wagner, but Wanger had a slightly better season in 2005. Either one will do nicely.

3) Sign Ramon Hernandez or Bengie Molina

-Any sentimental rambling about how Piazza, at this point, is a better fit then either of these two is just that. Just like the Ryan/Wagner situation, the Mets are fortunate to have two of what they need to choose from in free agency, and, similarly, either one will do nicely. Castro will continue to be a good backup.

4) Sign Jarrod Washburn

-I'm certain that not many people are thinking about this, but I sure am and I hope that Omar is also. Steve Trachsel is nice. If they want to pick up his option so that we can have some rotation depth going into Spring Training and/or trade bait to further enhance the bullpen or add depth to the minor leagues, so be it. But we need another reliable lefty to put in this rotation along with Glavine. Washburn had a good season this year, appears to be eligible for free agency (7 years of experience as per espn.com and not signed for 2006 as per http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/) and should translate well to the NL and Shea (especially with Peterson around).

5) Sign John Olerud

-The perfect guy to get as insurance to Jacobs at first base. The defense alone is worth it, and he actually had a nice little comeback with the bat this year. They never really recovered from losing him to homesickness after 1999. Let's bring him back now to fill a role on the bench.

6) Re-up Roberto Hernandez

-The bullpen was obviously a weak spot this year. We cannot strengthen it while losing a key bright spot to it at the same time.

-Hopefully we can find a smaller market team to take Matsui for somewhere around 50 cents on the dollar and see if he is a little better without the eyes of NYC on him (and hopefully Matsui himself will see that this is best for him and allow it to happen). Anderson and Woodward are needed as veteran insurance at second base. In a perfect world, either Anderson Hernandez or (assuming he is healthy) Jeff Keppinger will take the bull by the horns and earn a starting gig at second.

1) sure. if manny is available go get him.2) yes. get a veteran established closer.3) no thanks. ramon will command too much money and i think he's both a health risk and not as good as i thought he was prior to this year.4) no thanks. the mets dont need starting pitching and would be best served spending money elsewhere.5) IF we decide to hand the job to jacobs then a veteran presence makes sense, i'm the world's biggest olerud fan too.6) i'd like to bring hernandez back BUT at his age i'd hate for anyone to think that he'll repeat this incredible year. don't plan on making him the 2nd most important guy in the pen again.7) i want to get rid of matsui and cairo very badly. i'd like to bring back ONE of woodward/anderson but i think both is a bit redundant.

lineup- i'd love to see the lineup you projected, except the catching position. also if we cant get manny i want a big bat at 1b, sorry jacobs.

rotation- i will be upset with any rotation that doesnt include jae seo. i wouldn't mind trading zambrano for bullpen help or in a manny trade, re-upping traschel sounds good too. my rotation would be- martinez, glavine, benson, seo, traschel with heilman waiting for anyone to screw up.

bullpen- sign a closer, hernandez, heilman, bell, and let young guys fight it out for the remaining spots.

bench- Diaz, Woodward OR Anderson, a veteran backup to jacobs OR jacobs, backup catcher (castro unless he is starting)this might leave us short a shortstop which is one reason to prefer woodard to anderson. not too concerned with backing up 3B...he'll play 155+ i hope. you MUST keep Diaz on this team unless he is needed to get manny. with floyd and cameron out there an injury will come.

now for who i DONT want to see on this team:1. matsui2. cairo3. ishii4. willie....ok i know i cant have that5. anyone over the age of 35 that doesn't have a potentially productive bat (this means you, gerald williams)6. any "veteran" reliever whose only "advantage" over our kids is that they've played alot (and proven that they shouldn't play much more)

Frayed Knot Oct 03 2005 02:51 PM

]6. any "veteran" reliever whose only "advantage" over our kids is that they've played alot (and proven that they shouldn't play much more)

You mean like Hernandez was coming into this year?

Thing about these "veterens" - Anderson, Robo, Tony Clark 2 years back, etc. - is that as long as you don't go committing yourself to locked-in contracts [Stanton, Franco, etc.] then they're easily disposable if/when they don't perform (DeJean, Aybar). Robo was no more of a lock coming into the season then any one of a host of other pickups that are on every roster everywhere.

Elster88 Oct 03 2005 03:31 PM

If Ramon Hernandez or Molina is hitting in the sixth slot next yeara, then we've got problems.

seawolf17 Oct 03 2005 05:41 PM

1) Fine, but not for Beltran.2) Blah.3) Molina, yes. Hernandez, no.4) I like Washburn, but I'd rather spend his money elsewhere.5) Loved Oly in 1999. Don't love him now.6) No. No way he performs as well next year as he did this year.7) I'll take Marlon & Woody, but I still just don't know what to think of Matsui.

I don't know what is confusing -- asking for a veteran reliever on the first list but not a "veteran" reliever on the second, or putting "veteran" and "advantage" in quotes, as if there's ambiguity in what these words mean.

You don't want the Mets to sign bad people. Neither do I.

The Mets may not have had the best bullpen this year, but they did well staying out of entangling multi-year deals with any of them. And the more we spread the myth that it was the pen that undid this team, the more likely it is that we'll see multi-year guaranteed deals offered to relievers whose performance is less guaranteed.

It'll be very interesting to see the Mets go after Billy Wagner. They've tradtionally built their own closers. Even the exceptions weren't fully exceptions. Benitez was traded for, but promoted from a lesser role. Franco was traded for, but we dealt our own closer in a challenge trade.

Loops is like the only free agent closer the Mets have signed, and he was a B-Lister.

Johnny Dickshot Oct 03 2005 06:28 PM

]Loops is like the only free agent closer the Mets have signed, and he was a B-Lister.

Even then, there were no illusions as to what he'd bring to the table: Some upside given a good arm and an opportunity but all along he was viewed as the kind of closer with whom a struggler could 'get by' and he was paid as such.

Ya know, I'm not all that hot for Wagner. Maybe that's cuz it's not really time to fire up the stove till after the WS.

Sure, but signs have the Mets looking closer at him for a starter's job as well.

martin Oct 03 2005 10:47 PM

i still would like to see matsui given one final shot next year. i like his speed and athleticism. maybe he can finally stay healthy and be comfortable enough with the team and culture to hit all the doubles i think are still in his bat.

is matsui too terrible to even be a bench player? at least he is fast?

i have trouble believing he is as bad as he has played.

metirish Oct 03 2005 10:48 PM

]is matsui too terrible to even be a bench player? at least he is fast?

not for the money he's making Martin, from what I read Kaz expects to be back as a Met and that's what he's gearing up for.

Valadius Oct 03 2005 10:53 PM

If only we could send Matsui to some form of Instructional League...

SI Metman Oct 04 2005 01:50 AM

Edgy DC wrote:Sure, but signs have the Mets looking closer at him for a starters job.

Which I personally think is the stupidest thing I ever heard. This guy has great stuff out of the pen. He needs another pitch to be a successful major league starting pitcher.

Edgy DC Oct 04 2005 07:55 AM

]Which I personally think is the stupidest thing I ever heard.

Really? I can think of many fine starters who transitioned out of middle relief. I can also think of many fine starters who featured two pitches.

He also had the top start of the year for the Mets.

Dumbest thing you ever heard?

Yancy Street Gang Oct 04 2005 09:01 AM

Here's a surprising little tidbit I spotted in the Daily News this morning:

They report that they've heard reports that free-agent-to-be Rafael Furcal has been saying that he'd like to play second base for the Mets.

Elster88 Oct 04 2005 09:26 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote:They report that they've heard reports that free-agent-to-be Rafael Furcal has been saying that he'd like to play second base for the Mets.

The playoffs start today, and the rumors are already making my head spin. And this one includes a guy who has a game to play today. This rumor, if it was put out there by someone who is connected to Furball, is probably specially constructed to drive up prices.

holychicken Oct 04 2005 09:28 AM

Edgy DC wrote:I can also think of many fine starters who featured two pitches.

Who? I was always under the impression that 2 pitches just wasn't enough and when talk about Heilman being a starter came up, I thought something similar to what SI said.

I just can't imagine that you can fool major league hitters their second time against you, let alone their third and possibly fourth times, when you are only throwing two pitches.

Elster88 Oct 04 2005 12:00 PM

holychicken wrote:

="Edgy DC"]I can also think of many fine starters who featured two pitches.

Who? I was always under the impression that 2 pitches just wasn't enough and when talk about Heilman being a starter came up, I thought something similar to what SI said.

I just can't imagine that you can fool major league hitters their second time against you, let alone their third and possibly fourth times, when you are only throwing two pitches.

Well, Doc Gooden featured only two pitches in his 1985 campaign. In fact, I've heard that adding a third pitch screwed him up. (Thanks, Mel, you're a genius!) But most guys don't have his talent.

Tom Glavine featured one pitch in the pre-Questec era._____________________________This post had the designation 141) Kevin Appier

]Who? I was always under the impression that 2 pitches just wasn't enough and when talk about Heilman being a starter came up, I thought something similar to what SI said.

Well, Roger Clemens for most of the last ten years, for one.

Young Gooden is indeed a good example. He was fastball/cuve. He threw one or two changes per game to remind people that he had one.

Edgy DC Oct 04 2005 12:30 PM

How about Tom Glavine? A slow fastball and changeups off of that. Maybe a few breaking pitches per game, never over the plate.

The only change over his entire career is that the fastball has slowed down.

Edgy DC Oct 04 2005 12:33 PM

Heilman, on the other hand, has been throwing three pitches effectively. Change, slider, and fastball.

His fastball has been up a lot. But he still uses all three liberally.

Rotblatt Oct 04 2005 12:56 PM

Furcal? Holy shit, I love that idea. It might not be practical, money-wise, but he's great defensively, he's fast, and he does a fine job of getting on base. He's also got a little pop.

Man, that'd be a fun infield to watch.

I'm a little torn about Jacobs. We'd have a much better idea of what we're getting from Konerko, but Jake has certainly impressed me and you've gotta think he'll be able to put up a >.800 OPS--a big upgrade from this year in and of itself.

We'd really need a quality backup for him, though, and if you ask me, it should be a righty with some pop. Not sure who.

I'm down with Manny, depending on what we give up, but I don't want him playing right. Floyd looked good this year, so maybe he could transition, but I'm not wild about that either.

In my ideal world, we'd pass on Manny, trade Cameron for prospects and a fourth OF, and get someone like Wilkerson (I know, I know--he had a terrible year, but he was pretty solid before that)--a regular who can play 1B, plus OF. With that kind of flexibility, we could play a lot of Jake & Diaz without having to count too much on them.

Y'all will probably tell me we're still lacking a righty power bat, but I'd take this lineup into 2006 and be pretty darn happy. Clear upgrades at 1B & 2B, a likely downgrade in left as Floyd regresses, and a possible downgrade at C, but everyone else is likely to stay the same or get a little better--or, in Beltran's case, a lot better.

Throw Konerko in there instead of Jake, and we've got a flat-out dominant lineup. Ditto if we throw Dunn in there instead of Wilkerson.

Aside from the high profile players who have been discussed (Konerko, Fecal, Molina, Ryan, et. al) I spotted a few role players who might be an improvement/ fill a niche over who are currently on the roster:

If they will be going with Jacobs at first, and want some lower cost backup insurance, how about John Olerud, Scott Hattieberg, or Olmedo Saenz (a professional right hitter)?

And for the backup 1B/3B/of role, how about John Maybry? The only problem with him is that he's a Cardinal and St. Louis is like baseball's black hole - players come in and then never leave because they like the place so much.

Later

smg58 Oct 06 2005 12:17 AM

When did Doc get a third pitch? I always thought that the lack of a decent third pitch made it inevitable that hitters would adjust to him.

The Furcal rumor is interesting. I wouldn't put it beyond him to try to use the Mets as leverage with the Braves, but the Braves have Wilson Betemit and limited resources so I'll wager they're willing to let him go. I wouldn't oppose bringing him here. I'd like to see the Mets bring in one or two .400 OBP guys, but I don't think you'll find too many second basemen who fit that description, and to say that he'd be an upgrade at second would be a major understatement.

The Mets have enough resources at the major league level that they shouldn't give up major prospects to bring anybody in, or need to get everything through free agency. It's too early to figure out most of the players that will be on the block, so I wouldn't be too quick to narrow a wish list to a few specific players.

Molina, a free agent after the season, may be targeted by both the Mets and Yankees this offseason, the Newark Star-Ledger reports.

Molina, one of the best defensive catchers in the game, batted .295 with 19 homers and 69 RBI in 119 games during the regular season, and could be in line for a huge payday in free agency. The other catcher the Mets figure to pursue is Ramon Hernandez.

DocTee Oct 10 2005 12:05 AM

Molina would be a better option than Hernandez IMO. Both are very good defensively and Castro can provide a nice understudy to either, but Hernandez has some recent injury woes IIRC

metirish Oct 10 2005 12:20 AM

From what I have seen of Molina I would love to have him on the Mets,Hernandez failed to impress during the series at Shea, but IIRC he got injured then...plus I think he would be looking for bigger money than Molina, I could be very wrong about that though.

Frayed Knot Oct 10 2005 12:26 AM

]Bengie Molina headed to New York?

He's a FA catcher and the Mets are a team w/money in search of a catcher so it's inevitable that writers will connect the two even though it's nothing more than speculation at this point.Apparently he and Castro are buddies from way back in the Puerto Rico days which only adds fuel to the fire.

Five spots remain. We're likely to re-up Marlon Anderson, and possibly Roberto Hernandez, so that would leave three spots. They would likely go towards a catcher, a closer, and a reserve corner infielder.

P.S. I was quite surprised to see on MLB.com that Chris Woodward is not a free agent. I had assumed he was, but he's not listed as free-agent-eligible.

MFS62 Oct 10 2005 06:24 PM

Hadn't there been an announcement that the Mets have picked up Steve Traschel's 2006 option?

Valadius Oct 10 2005 06:39 PM

I can't say I recall seeing that.

Valadius Oct 14 2005 01:51 PM

This from Sportsline:

Several New York newspapers are reporting that setup man Tom Gordon will leave the Yankees because he wants to be a closer and that he could end up with the Mets.

No fucking way. Omar isn't fucking stupid. Whichever newspapers they're referring to are obviously out of their goddamn minds.

Tom Gordon's days as a Yankee appear to be over. That doesn't necessarily mean he is done pitching in New York.Gordon, one of four Yankees to clean out his locker yesterday at Yankee Stadium, said he would like to become a closer again. Since the Yankees already are set at that position with Mariano Rivera, it seems as though Gordon, now a free agent, has pitched his final days in pinstripes.

"I'd love to close again somewhere," Gordon said. "We'll see what happens, but if it takes me somewhere else, so be it."

Now that he has made it clear he wants to close, Gordon could become one of the most coveted relief pitchers on the market. And after Braden Looper's shaky, injury-filled season, it seems as though the Mets will be looking for a new closer.

Valadius Oct 14 2005 02:07 PM

We're not going to make Tom Gordon our closer. We simply aren't. That's not how Omar works. Gordon's too old to be a closer.

Nymr83 Oct 14 2005 02:16 PM

i have the feeling that if we signed Gordon he'd suddenly stink. Lets stop looking for old folk to solve our problems.

MFS62 Oct 14 2005 02:46 PM

Gordon has the kind of stuff (95MPH heater if you believe the tv radar guns, big breaking curve) that makes scouts drool and gets GMs fired.

I'm not all that jazzed about spending big for a closer, even though Omar's going to and you know it. Considering either guy will ask for 3 years, I might be inclined to go with Ryan here, but I generally get nervous about paying big $$ for a closer.

Ryan, age 30: 69 G, 70.3 IP, 100 K, 26 BB, 4 HR, 170 ERA+

Wagner, age 33: 75 G, 77.2 IP, 87 K, 20 BB, 6 HR, 300 ERA+

smg58 Oct 15 2005 11:38 AM

Wow, the age difference between Ryan and Wagner is a lot less than I realized. It's not an easy call; I think you have to set a value for the two of them above which you wouldn't go, and then stick to it. But Gordon just strikes me as a waste of time.

MFS62 Oct 15 2005 12:26 PM

Peterson will probably lobby for Ryan, because Wagner is "too small".

Later

Nymr83 Oct 15 2005 02:03 PM

i have no problems looking at a player's size and "tools" when scouting high school players (because what do high school stats really mean) but at the major league level if a guy has proven he can get the job done who cares how big he is anymore.

Valadius Oct 15 2005 02:19 PM

Yeah. Case in point: David Eckstein.

MFS62 Oct 15 2005 02:32 PM

83, Val,That was an allusion to the stories we read about some of Peterson's opinions about Kasmir.

Later

Valadius Oct 15 2005 02:32 PM

Ah.

Gotcha.

Nymr83 Oct 15 2005 03:39 PM

peterson is a joke anyway, my jr high school gym teacher could have agood staff ERA with hudson, zito, and mulder. peterson has done NOTHING to earn a good reputation.

And what makes anybody so sure that none of Hudson's, Mulder's, and Zito's succcess can be attributed to him. I'm not saying he should necessarily get any credit (I don't know), but I don't know from why I've been reading statements for two years that he shouldn't get any.

(The same srgument, of course, can be applied to any co'ach or manager. If their players succeed, it was from the players abilitities, not from the coach's intervention.)

Meanwhile, two years later, people are still bitterly dogging the guy on that basis, even though Zito, Mulder, and Hudson have all backslid to a man.

And do we have any quote where he described Scott Kazmir as too small?

KC Oct 15 2005 04:00 PM

Polar silliness - I keep forgetting to click and not read it.

MFS62 Oct 15 2005 04:04 PM

Of course not. Anything he said to the GM prior to the trade was said behind closed doors.But there were countless news stories after the deal that said he gave a lot of input to the decision. Some said it was because Peterson thought Kasmir couldn't contribute imediately because he feels a pitcher needs 500 innings in the minors to get ready.Some said he felt Kasmir's throwing mechanics would cause arm injuries.Some said it was because of his size; that he wouldn't have the stamina to be an efective starter.

I'm sure you read all those stories. But this is like asking me to quote Dick Cheney when he advised dubya to invade Iraq. Actual quotes aren't available. And I'm pretty sure you knew that when you asked for a quote.

And based on those stories, it was my hyperbolic interpretation of something he might have said.

Later

KC Oct 15 2005 04:33 PM

Just to be clear, I was referring to Nymr as polarly silly. Making loudinternet posts saying a top paid professional has done NOTHING andthat his Jr. high school coach is just as competent is, well, silly.

Nymr83 Oct 15 2005 06:03 PM

its not silly. Hudson, Zito, and Mulder were all well thought of coming through the minors and continued their success in the majors, there is no evidence that Peterson did anything. Find me a trend of pitchers coming to him and doing better than expected (i can easily find such a trend for a guy like Leo Mazzone.) That is the only way to show that someone is a "good pitching coach."But hey, lets go with your insane theory that being "top paid" automatically makes you qualified for the job you have.

KC Oct 15 2005 06:40 PM

>>>But hey, lets go with your insane theory that being "top paid" automatically makes you qualified for the job you have.<<<

I'm sorry, you're right. I'm insane ... the Mets should have signed yourJr. high school coach because he's done SOMETHING and isn't a jokelike Rick Peterson.

Next.

Nymr83 Oct 15 2005 07:28 PM

i didnt say he's done something, but neither has peterson.

but lets stop the arguing and move on to something more fun and hopefully more enlightening... we'll start with Peterson but i'd like to do this for some other guys as well. for each pitching coach that we want to study we'll come up with a list of pitchers who came to them from another MLB team and a list of those who left and pitched elsewhere. we'll determine, for each of these pitchers, their ERA+ before, during, and after they were under that pitching coach's tutelage, then by weighing each pitcher according to innings (or by only using those pitchers who pitched at least X innings and not weighing it) we'll be able to determine the average ERA+ of all pitchers under the coach's control and what those same pitchers did before and after (if a guy had Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux he'd obviously look good judged solely on his staff's ERA+, but how would he look when taking into account what those pitchers did before him and what they did after him)

yeah this is probably alot of work but i like research and will start on this next week after my final on monday.

Edgy DC Oct 15 2005 11:54 PM

Yes, let's you take a baseless potshot at somebody and put other people in the position of disproving it. That's logical.

Nymr83 Oct 16 2005 01:01 AM

i said peterson sucks, KC is the one who made this personal, not me. and when did i put him in the "position of disproving it"? i'm offering to prove peterson's shittiness myself. neither he nor anyome else has offered evidence, not even anecdotal evidence, that peterson is a good pitching coach

Which we have no quotes about. What we do have is much publicity about Rick Peterson going to great lengths to work with pitchers to have an efficient motion that reduces stress on the arm. So, looking for a scapegoat, we can use this to jump to the conclusion that Peterson balked at Kazmir because he found his motion counterproductive.

What Peterson has actually stated is that pitchers out of high school, by definition, are a risky investment, which is legitimate input that nobody's countered with data.

]Some said it was because of his size; that he wouldn't have the stamina to be an efective starter.

I don't know that we have anything at all about Peterson arguing this. Even if we had a second-hand statement --- such as, "Insiders have Peterson arguing..." --- specuation that a 20-year-old's frame may not be suitable to him being a starter have nothing to do at all with the fitness of Billy Wagner, a ten-year veteran relief pitcher, to be a relief pitcher.

]I'm sure you read all those stories.

No, I didn't.

]But this is like asking me to quote Dick Cheney when he advised dubya to invade Iraq.

No, that's a terrible analogy.

]Actual quotes aren't available.

I can probably find 1,000 quotes of Dick Cheney openly discussing Iraq policy and the wisdom of it.

]And I'm pretty sure you knew that when you asked for a quote.

Believe me, Dick Cheney was not on my mind.

]And based on those stories, it was my hyperbolic interpretation of something he might have said.

Tim Marchman at New Partisan says, "Kazmir is simply too small to be a starting pitcher in the major leagues, and he may be too small to be any kind of pitcher at all."

That's the author talking.__________________

Second is another link to the same piece.__________________

Third, I have a forum (Addict Baseball and Football Forum) where Leiter Fan argues "Do you remember ANYTHING about what was said when Kazmir signed? Baseball pundits as well as Mets fans were whining that he was too small and wouldn't have enough stamina. Obviously, the Mets now believe this too."__________________

Fourth and fifth, Greg at Faith and Fear in Flushing recalls the deal a year later. He initially liked it, but, then, several hours after the deal was announced, concluded, "I have to question the scouting that chooses Scott Kazmir out of high school two short years ago as the No. 1 pick only to have the organization decide now he's either too small, too frail or too much of a Shane Spencer to keep around."

While he assumes that Kazmir's size is a possible part of the organization's thinking, he does not attribute that idea to Rick Peterson. He, in the article, goes back and forth on the deals. Great job, Greg.__________________

Sixth is garbage, Matthew Cerrone's Metsblog where "too small" is referring not to Kazzy's stature, but to Mike Piazza's body of work at first.__________________

"Apparently the Mets view Kazmir's frame as too small, though it is similar to Roy Oswalt, and that their was fear that he would soon blow out his shoulder.

Also, there was apparently a question about his work ethic, which I doubt is true."

This is seemingly in response to an article claiming Goldis was driving Wilpon's thinking.

Earlier in the thread, when news of this deal is just leaking out, Ollo writes

"Mets Pitching Coach Rick Peterson (Creator of Mulder, Zito, Hudson,and Harden), known as God to Mets fans has input in every trade or signing that involves a pitcher. In fact, he must give his approval before any transaction goes down."

Now, the first statement is clearly untrue. So, I think it's safe to say he has no basis for the second.__________________

Ninth is the Baseball Fever forum. Somebody said the projected Mets bullpen is "too small." Not relevant to us.__________________

BTF's Blogpen, our tenth link, is also the wrong tree. What's too small there is the sample size of Mark Bellhorn's experience at second base, if you're looking to draw conclusions.

Go to bed, Edgy.

Edgy DC Oct 16 2005 04:26 PM

This morning, we have a new link clocking in at number 10, an article at Batter's Box, which doesn't quote Rick Peterson describing Scott Kazmir as "too small," but rather includes a posting by "Gitz" (Wednesday, December 10 2003 @ 05:37 PM EST [#84146]), pointing out that Tim Hudson overcame "you're too small" issues while pitching under Rick Peterson, without ascribing that quote to anybody in particular.________________________

Number 11 goes to the same article.________________________

Hit number 12 is a blogger's opinion at Straight Flushing (Tuesday, March 01, 2005, last entry on the page)

You can say he's too small to pitch starter's innings, or that his mechanics put too much strain on his elbow. Maybe he'll wind up as a relief pitcher, and who would want a Billy Wagner-type around anyway, but at this point he looks like a young lefty with filthy stuff who's poised to have a dominant career as a starter.

Obviously, he's creating an argument in order to shoot it down, and not ascribing the argument to anybody in particular.________________________

Lucky hit number 13 is an irrelevant post at The Bull Pen, suggesting that Kris Benson's performance for the Mets in 2004 was perhaps "too small" a sample size. Rick Peterson and Scott Kazmir do not appear in the same context.________________________

Hit number 14 also gives us nothing --- a posting at Flushing Local is again suggesting the Mets bullpen staff might be "too small." Nothing to do with Kazmir.________________________

Number 15 is the same.________________________

Number 16 is Bryan Smith at Wait 'Till Next Year. He uses "too small" to get in the point that a top 100 prospects list seems too small as everybody asks about their favorite prospect. He points out then that Matt Peterson wouldn't be in the top 110 either.

He ranks Scott Kazmir tenth, but then confesses that he ranked Kazmir generously high.________________________

Number 17 is an irrelevant posting at Reds and Blues. It's an old post dating back to the happy times when Kazmir was a Mets property. What's listed as "too small" is Hiram Bithorn Stadium. Not much help to us.________________________

HIt post number 18 is something useful at The CHUD.COM Message Boards. A post from "MoNkaholic" (08-03-2004, 09:05 AM) takes place shortly after the deal. This was shortly after the deal went down. He implies Peterson bears some responsibility with the statement, "Jim Duquette and Rick Peterson better know what the hell they're doing."

Of course, that may well be referring to (a) Rick Peterson reportedly saying nice things about Victor Zambrano, or (b) Rick Peterson's coming responsibility to help redeem Zambrano (and the deal). The poster himself opines, with no reference to Peterson's opinion:

Every prospect they've dealt had holes, Scott Kazmir is too small for a power pitcher, Matt Peterson doesn't project very far and has had to deal with control issues all season, Justin Huber's defense at catcher has been questioned numerous times (a position change from catcher to say first base reduces his value tremendously), and Ty Wigginton is a butcher with the glove with no plate discipline or position on this team.

________________________

Number 19 is that same article by Faith-and-Fear Greg suggesting that smallness may be one trait the Mets didn't particluarly like about Kazmir, again not attributing that opinion to Rick Peterson. Greg does confess a shaky trust in Rick Peterson at one point on his emotional rollercoaster ride. He's hoping, I guess, that if this trade was indeed doomed, Peterson wouldn't have approved it.________________________

Kazmir is being referred to under the headline "Owner Of $200 Million, Last-Place Club Issues Edict" as they return to the old saw that the real culprit in the Kazmir deal wasn't Peterson, wasn't Goldis, but (remember this one?) Leiter.

Not the best of days of days for former Mets product Scott Kazmir, which indicates that Al Leiter is still learning the finer points of voodoo (stabbing the Scott doll in the eyes would be rather blatant, chewing on the elbow, however, might produce the desired results).

Peterson is mentioned not for his alleged cynicism regarding Scott Kazmir (physique-wise or otherwise), but for his more substantiated optimism regarding Victor Zambrano, in the post "Penny Effective In Rehab Start" which muses:

Much as the reputations of Rick Peterson and Jim Duquette took a hit when Victor Zambrano was shut down shortly after his arrival in Flushing, LA’s Paul De Podesta faced a hailstorm of criticism following the trade that brought Brad Penny to the Dodgers.

And the phrase "too small" comes from the posting titled "When Smallball Is Just Too Small" suggesting Willie Randolph found a bunt attempt by Kaz Matsui to be in bad judgment.

MFS62 Oct 16 2005 04:37 PM

That's what I get trying to explain my original statement. I did not mean for it to be taken literally. I was trying to be sarcastic about my impression that Peterson always seems to have negaitve words about every pitcher, and therefore he would find something negative to say about Wagner. Wagner's height (he's listed at 5'8") was something I used.

And some of the quotes you found support my impression.Thank you for all that hard work.

Later

KC Oct 16 2005 05:05 PM

Calling a poster's comments silly for saying that a coach who has risen to the the height of his profession vs. that poster's assertion that his Jr.high gym teacher could do the same is not making anything personal.

It's pointing out some silly comments, and I can even leave out the NO-THING in caps which make it even sillier (sp?).

Edgy DC Oct 16 2005 05:10 PM

]That's what I get trying to explain my original statement.

What you got was an honest response.

]I did not mean for it to be taken literally

OK, you've got no quotes of Peterson sayiing this, so you say that there were no quotes (which I should know) but numerous articles attributing this to him. You don't bother to find one. I do a search and find something, which is a whole bunch of nothing. So you say you didn't mean it at all. Once again, you make an obnoxious statement and act like victim ('That's what I get...") when it's shown to be insupportable.

]I was trying to be sarcastic about my impression that Peterson always seems to have negaitve words about every pitcher, and therefore he would find something negative to say about Wagner.

No, he doesn't always seem "to have negaitve words about every pitcher." Where in the world does that come from? Or is this going to be another statement you didn't really mean?

]Wagner's height (he's listed at 5'8") was something I used.

He's listed at six feet, and the one being negative is you. Which is fine, whatever, but making up facts is nonsense.

]And some of the quotes you found support my impression.

Indeed? Which ones?

]Thank you for all that hard work.

Please support a statement for once, instead of taking empty potshots. You have dirty fun getting cheap licks in, but that nonsense corrupts the record which is against everybody's interest.

MFS62 Oct 16 2005 08:30 PM

Can't someone just have a good old fashoined opinion?

I'll remind you again that I'm just auditing this course. I'm here for the FUN.If you want footnotes, start giving out some credits, Professor.

Y'know I made up a word to describe you. Its Parse-imonious.It means someone who takes relish in disecting the opinions and feelings of others but is miserly in giving out their own opinion, lest it be challenged.

When was the last time you answered one of my questions to you when I asked your opinion about something? Check back and see, if you're into all that research.

In the meantime, chalk me up as another CPF member who won't be around as frequently because of the way you treat people. We're not your employees nor are we your students. We owe you nothing, but we expect some civility when we come here.

Yes, and in an open forum, they might be confronted. I've said this numerous times. That's what a forum is. That doesn't make you a victim.

]I'll remind you again that I'm just auditing this course. I'm here for the FUN. If you want footnotes, start giving out some credits, Professor.

Well, if you think it's fun to make up a bunch of unsubstantiated nonsense about how other people say bad things about a bunch of other people, I don't really feel so bad about objecting. At all. You take shots, and act hurt when called on it.

]Y'know I made up a word to describe you. Its Parse-imonious. It means someone who takes relish in disecting the opinions and feelings of others but is miserly in giving out their own opinion, lest it be challenged.

I have several thousand posts for you to challenge. Yes, I have my own opinions in them.

]When was the last time you answered one of my questions to you when I asked your opinion about something? Check back and see, if you're into all that research.

What exact questions are you refferring to? Name one, please.

]In the meantime, chalk me up as another CPF member who won't be around as frequently because of the way you treat people. We're not your employees nor are we your students. We owe you nothing, but we expect some civility when we come here.

wagner is 4 1/2 years older than ryan. that's a big enough difference for me. if we're not to give the job to heilman, i'd prefer giving it to ryan over the other free agents

TheOldMole Oct 16 2005 09:12 PM

Hey, guys, Peterson is a controversial figure in Metland, and of course people are going to see him differently. Come on, guys, it's all fun...we just find our fun in different ways.

I'd hate to be the only Mets Fan since 62 left around here, MF, so hang in there.

And Edgy, I do appreciate all the heavy lifting you do around here.

KC Oct 16 2005 09:28 PM

>>>we just find our fun in different ways<<<

word up

Edgy DC Oct 16 2005 11:15 PM

KC does the hosting, Yancy the jerry-rigging, and Willets the archiving.

I've been largely made obselete, and need to find new ways to make myself useful.

smg58 Oct 17 2005 11:19 AM

metsmarathon wrote:wagner is 4 1/2 years older than ryan. that's a big enough difference for me. if we're not to give the job to heilman, i'd prefer giving it to ryan over the other free agents

Wagner's age is a definite concern. It would become a major issue for me if he insisted on four years. The concern with Ryan is how much do you offer somebody based on one big year (see Adrian Beltre). I'd talk to both, but there would be a limit to what I'd offer.

Regarding the Kazmir deal: funny, but I always assumed that Wilpons demanded two major-league starters before the deadline by any means necessary, because it was the only explanation that made sense to me. I can't back that up with any evidence, so I was merely speculating. It seems like everybody else has their own theory on this too. I see no point on getting overly angry with any Met coach/official/player over this, because everything reported on it has been rumor and none of us know what really happened. I see even less value in being angry at each other over this.

KC Oct 17 2005 11:26 AM

>>>I've been largely made obselete<<<

If posting and contibution of the most Mets' related stuff on forum is obsolete,that is. Look everyone - especially 62 - this notion of 'whoa is me I can't postmy opinion' and this place is policed too much to weed out 'posting of onesopinion' is a bunch of garbage. Posters are encouraged to say what they wantand if someone takes them to task over it - tough fucking tulips. If you don't agreewith the task taker, argue back. There is nothing more irritating than someone ona baseball forum saying they're leaving or staying or going here or going there overanother poster. Who cares?

metirish Oct 17 2005 11:30 AM

I just want to say I thought Peterson did a fine job this year with the pitchers, especially Glavine, Heilman, Bert Hernandez and the young guys out of the pen, oh and Seo, can't forget him.

Valadius Oct 17 2005 11:43 AM

What the hell are we arguing about?

Willets Point Oct 17 2005 11:51 AM

Beats me!

sharpie Oct 17 2005 11:55 AM

Whether the Mets should pursue Wagner or Ryan or someone else or fill the closers position from within.

Whether the Mets should pursue Paul Konerko or play Mike Jacobs or go after someone else.

Whether Edgy is being too mean to MFS62.

There may be more.

Elster88 Oct 17 2005 12:09 PM

I think the argument was originally about Cowboy Bob Orton's performance on WWF Superstars last Saturday.

Vic Sage Oct 17 2005 01:43 PM

if Jacobs can still catch, we platoon him with Castro.We sign Konerko.We make due at 2b.We sign Ryan.We trade Cameron + Trax for Brian Giles + LinebrinkWe're good to go.

ReyesBeltranFloydKonerkoWrightGilesJacobsMatsui

VDiaz, Castro, A.Hernandez, Woodward

PedroGlavneBensonSeo Zambrano

RyanLinebrinkHeilmann

metirish Oct 17 2005 02:02 PM

I would stay away from Giles, his numbers have decreased since moving to spacious Petco Park, playing at Shea would hardly help that.

sharpie Oct 17 2005 02:12 PM

That .423 obp with 119 walks would look pretty good no matter how spacious the park.

Rotblatt Oct 17 2005 02:20 PM

I like it, Vic. Although we won't have to trade for Giles, since he's a free agent, which would mean we could package Trachs & Cam for, say a top prospect or for a decent prospect and a second fourth outfielder (with Floyd & Giles out there, it wouldn't hurt to have some depth at OF).

And while you're right, Irish, and his raw numbers have decreased, his OPS+ has been pretty consistent aside from an off-year in 2004 (126--which is still better than Cliff's in 2005). This year, Giles had a 148 OPS+, which is a little better than his career average (146).

Plus, most of that OPS comes from the fact that he gets on base like nobody's business, which just seals the deal for me. We could really use an on-base machine like him.

metirish Oct 17 2005 02:21 PM

Yeah those numbers are nice, hos power numbers are way down though...from 99 through 02 he hit over 35 HR and well over 100 RBI, tis a concern no?

Rotblatt Oct 17 2005 03:06 PM

Yeah, that concerns me, Irish, but his SLG has been fairly consistent the last three years (.490, .475 & .483), and if he's up around .480, I'll have no complaints.

What about moving Giles to 1B? He'd be cheaper than Konerko or Delgado and moving him might protect him from getting injured . . . Clearly, Konerko + Giles is better, but if we're not willing to overpay, Giles at first would seem to be a pretty decent option . . .

sharpie Oct 17 2005 03:10 PM

He's never played an inning at 1B. Not sure he'd want to.

metirish Oct 17 2005 03:16 PM

Not sure he'd even want to come back east, isn't he a "west coast guy"?.Konerko is having a career year,I'd be weary of that again.

sharpie Oct 17 2005 03:23 PM

Konerko 04 41-117-.277Konerko 05 40-100-.283

He's had back-to-back similar seasons and had good seasons prior to those two. Don't think this is a "career year."

TheOldMole Oct 17 2005 03:25 PM

I like a lineup with Beltran batting second.

metirish Oct 17 2005 03:27 PM

Thanks sharpie, my info was wrong.

sharpie Oct 17 2005 03:37 PM

This from Sporting News' Ken Rosenthal:

The Padres' Brian Giles could be the Cardinals' next right fielder. Giles, a potential free agent, wants to stay in San Diego, but if no deal can be worked out, the Cardinals likely will be his No. 1 choice. . . .

smg58 Oct 17 2005 10:43 PM

After the reports that Beltran and Pedro were using us for leverage and had no interest in coming here, I take no reports about a player's wishes seriously. We'll have competition for anybody we pursue; that's not news. I still think Giles has the most value (dollar for dollar) of anybody in the market, and even Shea will look like a hitters park after two years in Petco. We'd need to make room for him first, though.

Edgy DC Oct 17 2005 11:11 PM

They didn't make room for Beltran first.

sharpie Oct 18 2005 09:34 AM

Yeah, if they really want Giles or whomever it makes sense to go get him and figure out where you'll put people later.

Edgy DC Oct 21 2005 09:38 AM

Reports this morning have Manny Ramirez's agent saying that Manuel Aristides does not want to go to the Mets.

Johnny Dickshot Oct 21 2005 09:50 AM

Negotiating ploy that I hope we don;t fall for.

Frayed Knot Oct 21 2005 09:55 AM

"Manny Ramirez's agent saying that Manuel Aristides does not want to go to the Mets."

a) Good!

b) Never put too much stock in what Manny (or agent) say today because tomorrow may bring a totally different slant

c) see b

Edgy DC Oct 21 2005 10:03 AM

Well, yeah, dude, I know, but I'm just playing the messenger.

You think I like bumping up this crappy thread?

metirish Oct 21 2005 10:16 AM

]Ramirez is owed $57 million through 2008

no thanks..

MFS62 Oct 21 2005 11:06 AM

There have been pages and pages of posts about this on other Met boards.

There are as many for as there are against getting him. I guess the ones who were dreaming of Manny in the Met lineup can now go back to typing with both hands.

Later

sharpie Oct 21 2005 12:03 PM

Angels prolly a better fit anyway. With so much middle infield help they can address a lot of Boston problems. No chance he goes to Cleveland with their budget.

Rotblatt Oct 21 2005 12:46 PM

I would argue that Boston needs pitching more than anything else, but if this whole "Manny doesn't want to move to the Mets" thing is real, I'm really glad we found out about it so early.

Nothing worse then spending all offseason trying unsuccesfully to trade for Manny while guys like Konerko and Giles get gobbled up by other teams.

I really, really hope this doesn't mean we go hard after Soriano.

Nymr83 Oct 23 2005 05:52 PM

regarding the discussion about peterson earlier in this thread someone DID conduct research similiar to what i proposed for Peterson (only waaaaaay more complicated) for Leo Mazzone. their conclusions were that Mazzone improved his pitcher's ERA (adjusted for park, league, and other factors) by half a run, yikes. i'm going to get in touch with him about helping me do the same for peterson, having already laid the groundwork for this type of study i'm sure he can get me started quicker than i could have myself[url]http://bradbury.sewanee.edu/wordpress/index.php/2004/12/how-good-is-leo-mazzone[/url]

metirish Oct 24 2005 11:27 PM

Klapisch was on MSG tonight saying that Omar will go hard for a Beltran for Manny trade, when asked how that would make sense given that Beltran had just one year here and is the face of the Mets and so on Klap said in his opinion Beltran would never become a great player in NY and is better suited to Boston, oh and we're getting Molina and now that Duke is in Baltimore the first thing he will do is bring Piazza......ahhhh

Nymr83 Oct 24 2005 11:52 PM

i don't buy any "beltran can't play in new york" crap, give him more than a year, with his track record he deserves it.however, if they think manny is a better fit i can't really argue, theres already a gold glove caliver CFer waiting to replace him.

Edgy DC Oct 25 2005 07:21 AM

Klapisch playing the Gammons role.

If things don't go down as he says, we should remind him every day, I think.

smg58 Oct 25 2005 11:05 AM

Klapisch is allowed to speculate, just like everybody else.

Presumably, if the Red Sox were the ones doing the pushing in July, Omar wouldn't need to push (assuming Klapisch is right and he wants to make this deal).

I could see Piazza in Baltimore. I could also see Molina coming here, although I'd still look at younger options in deals first.

metirish Oct 25 2005 11:17 AM

Billy Wagners agent said Wags will test the free-agent waters...

MFS62 Oct 25 2005 06:32 PM

Rotoworld.com:

Quote: The Phillies were informed yesterday that Billy Wagner will test the free-agent market rather than accept the team's latest offer.

While the Philadelphia Daily News reported last week the Phillies' most recent offer to Wagner was worth $24 million over three years and included a no-trade clause, the Inquirer believes it was a two-year deal with an option for 2008 that could have brought the total package for $27 million. The Inquirer also believes that the Phillies didn't offer the no-trade clause that Wagner desires. It looks like the Mets will get to make the left-handed an offer. They will be among the strongest suitors in a group that could also include the Red Sox, Orioles, Braves and Mariners. Oct. 25 - 3:33 am et Source: Philadelphia Inquirer

Hmmmm, I'd guess that the Orioles will be showing up more and more in stories/ rumors like this now that Leo Mazzone is there.

Later

Mex17 Oct 25 2005 09:58 PM
Soriano thoughts.

If Manny-to-the-Mets is really a dead issue on account of him not wanting to come here (and I would NOT trade Beltran for him BTW. . .we need to add to what we have, not subtract-to-add), I would start talking to Texas again about Soriano if I were Omar.

I would NOT, however, give Texas as much as I would have given Boston for Manny. Soriano gives us the righthanded slugger we desparately need and he gives us the bonus of 30+ stolen bases per year on top of that (a top four of Reyes-Beltran-Wright-Soriano would be amazing from a speed standpoint) but he has significant negatives when compared to Manny. Namely, a .320 career OBP as opposed to Manny's .409 (strikeouts are about the same according to seasonal averages. . . 137 for Soriano compared to 130 for Manny) along with defensive liability at a more sensitive spot (second base as opposed to corner outfield).

The meat of my offer to Texas would consist of:

-One out of Cameron, Diaz, or Milledge (they would probably not take Cameron. . .the key is to keep at least one of Diaz or Milledge)

The bench had Zeile and McEwing and Wilson guaranteed, so the Mets found room for Eric Valent. The young stud they were waiting to bring up was righthanded hitter David Wright.

Today, Floyd is still our only exclusive lefthand batter guaranteed to make the squad. Mientkiewicz will be severed within a week, so we'll see what they do with Jacobs. If Jacobs opens the season at first and their catcher is presumed to be a righty, the ratio of batsmen will be:

Lefties: 2Switchies: 3Righties: 3, at least two of which will have 25-homer-plus power

I don't see a particlar need for righthanded slugger, just for a good hitter.

And, as usual, I'm more than happy to stand pat and search from within.

metirish Nov 01 2005 08:56 AM

Furcal to use Mets.....whohoo

]Agent: Furcal couldplay 2nd for Mets

BY ADAM RUBINDAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Rafael Furcal plans to consider the Mets. And the team won't have to move Jose Reyes to lure him.Furcal, a rifle-armed shortstop who filed for free agency yesterday, would be willing to play second base in Flushing, his agent, Paul Kinze, said yesterday. The Atlanta-based Kinzer said Furcal's preference is to remain a shortstop, but said about the Mets: "I think they'll be a player. ... He would be willing to explore it."

The Mets are expected to pursue Furcal and other second-base options, despite Kaz Matsui having one year and $8 million remaining on his contract and rookie Anderson Hernandez going 11-for-24 with seven RBI so far in winter ball.

Unlike Matsui, a natural shortstop who joined the Mets with little experience elsewhere in the infield, Furcal is comfortable at second base. Kinzer estimated Furcal has played the position at least five years in winter ball in order to allow mentor Neifi Perez - another free agent this winter - to play shortstop with the Dominican club Escogido.

Furcal's brother and extended family live in the Bronx. And Kinzer said the Mets' Hispanic-friendly clubhouse, which includes fellow Dominicans Pedro Martinez and Reyes, is alluring.

"It'll help the comfort level," Kinzer said. "And he has a lot of family there."

Furcal could team with Reyes atop the Mets' order to provide stellar speed in addition to a dynamic double-play combination. After a slow start with Atlanta this year, Furcal finished with a .284 average, 12 homers, 58 RBI and 46 steals. He batted .338 over the Braves' final 78 games.

"He's as good a fielding shortstop as there is in baseball right now for me," Braves manager Bobby Cox said during the playoffs. "He's got tremendous range, a great arm. Right now he's one of the better leadoff hitters. ... We're hoping to keep him."

Braves officials are expected to meet with Kinzer and Furcal tomorrow, but the 27-year-old's talent may have priced him out of their range. The Cubs, looking for a replacement for Nomar Garciaparra at shortstop, are expected to be serious bidders. Furcal made $5.6 million in 2005 and could be looking for a deal comparable to Edgar Renteria's four-year, $40 million contract with Boston last winter.

He has family in the Bronx,of course he wants to play for the Mets..

sharpie Nov 01 2005 09:00 AM

Cubs will throw more money at him and let him be their shortstop. I don't think he ends up here.

Elster88 Nov 01 2005 09:06 AM

Who is the better SS between Reyes and Furcal?

Yancy Street Gang Nov 01 2005 09:07 AM

I hope he "uses" the Mets the same way Pedro and Beltran did.

holychicken Nov 01 2005 09:16 AM

NO SORIANO!!!

I believe him to be the most overrated baseball player today. Sure, he hits some homeruns and steals some bases. However, we had an OBP of 322 last year, 26th overall last year. On top of that our slugging percentage was 16th overall and 8th in the NL. That could certianly be improved, but our inability to get on base is a much more pressing issue; the last thing we need is another guy who is going to be creating outs possibly more than 7 out of every 10 times he comes to bat (considering his H/A splits).

Seriously, I don't understand why so many people are so hot for this guy. Below average defense (I think) and poor OBP. He's got about 2 tools. . . and they are artificially inflated by playing half his games in a hitter's park.

Again, I repeat, NO SORIANO!!!!! Unless, of course, the price is really really low, which it most certainly will not be.

Elster88 Nov 01 2005 09:18 AM

It would be exciting to have the top TWO stolen base guys from the NL on the same team. Does anyone else still feel shocked at all this speed when remembering the years when the Mets were near the bottom of the league in SB?

Edit: Talking about Furcal here, obviously, not Soriano.

holychicken Nov 01 2005 09:19 AM

NO SORIANO!!!!And I am talking about NO SORIANO!!!! here, not Furcal.

Elster88 Nov 01 2005 09:21 AM

I agree, my fine feathered friend.

GYC Nov 01 2005 09:27 AM

Elster88 wrote:It would be exciting to have the top TWO stolen base guys from the NL on the same team. Does anyone else still feel shocked at all this speed when remembering the years when the Mets were near the bottom of the league in SB?

]They can't negotiate with him until after the final day of the free agency filing period, Nov. 11, but they can speak with him about playing second base and other salient points, other than money.

Omar: So Furball, how is your family?Furcal: Just fine thanks. I sure miss them though. I've felt like I was 15 million miles away from them for the past three years.Omar: I'm sure it's gotta be tough. I agree with everything you've said. Well, thanks from coming in, and we'll see you on the eleventh.

Elster88 Nov 01 2005 09:35 AM

]Trachsel, who underwent back surgery in March, will earn $2.5 million for 2006. He earned $6,782,500 for 2005 when he pitched merely 37 innings and qualified for none of the incentive clauses that would have dramatically increased his 2006 salary.

Ugh. Not fair. Shitty time to get an injury. Throw a little more green at him, I say.

Edgy DC Nov 01 2005 09:41 AM

Why?

Rotblatt Nov 01 2005 09:56 AM

S-M-A-R-T

That's how I feel about our organization right now for pursuing Furcal right now. At the very least, it's going to drive up his price for the Braves.

I'm concerned about Furcal's H/A splits, however. .891 OPS/.657 OPS this year, and between 2002 & 2003, it was .820/.737.

His OPS at Shea over that span in 108 AB is .602, although he posted a .906 OPS there last year in 39 AB.

Anyway, despite my concerns, I'd see his signing as a good move. He's young, excellent defensively, durable, fast as hell, puts the ball in play and gets on base at a decent clip.

smg58 Nov 01 2005 10:12 AM

I am against Soriano, but not necessarily Furcal.

The Braves have Wilson Betemit, and they've let plenty of other guys walk in the past and survived. I'm not sure they'd be the Mets' primary competition.

Furcal did play some 2B when he first came up, so he wouldn't be learning from scratch.

I'm surprised by the home/road splits. I wouldn't have considered Atlanta a hitter's park, but perhaps it's an easy place to get singles or beat out ground balls? Does anybody know anything on that?

I'm not sure he's a great option, but he might very well be the best option available.

Elster88 Nov 01 2005 10:33 AM

Edgy DC wrote:Why?

Because it's not my money.

Nymr83 Nov 01 2005 12:33 PM

]Omar: So Furball, how is your family?Furcal: Just fine thanks. I sure miss them though. I've felt like I was 15 million miles away from them for the past three years.Omar: I'm sure it's gotta be tough. I agree with everything you've said. Well, thanks from coming in, and we'll see you on the eleventh.

kinda like how they do it in the bronx....George (to Rudy): we can offer that guy 8milRudy (to FA pitcher): i think the yankees can offer you 8milFA pitcher (to Rudy): i was hoping the yankees could offer 9 milRudy (to George):..........

MFS62 Nov 01 2005 01:42 PM

What does everyone think Frank Thomas will get on the free agent market?If the dollars are "right" (say, under $3 million plus incentives for two years) do you think the Mets should make a play for him?

Later

Willets Point Nov 01 2005 01:46 PM

Not many places to put a DH on the Mets.

Yancy Street Gang Nov 01 2005 01:47 PM

MFS62 wrote:What does everyone think Frank Thomas will get on the free agent market?If the dollars are "right" (say, under $3 million plus incentives for two years) do you think the Mets should make a play for him?

Later

Not that public reaction should guide their moves, but it would be seen as Mo Vaughn all over again.

metirish Nov 01 2005 01:49 PM

Jesus Lord no way to Frank Thomas,he's a DH and I'm sure he thinks the same thing.

Elster88 Nov 01 2005 01:50 PM

Pick him up for $1 million and stick him on the bench. It's not my money.

MFS62 Nov 01 2005 06:37 PM

metirish wrote:Jesus Lord no way to Frank Thomas,he's a DH and I'm sure he thinks the same thing.

Actually, according to my friend Shoeless Don the White Sox fan, The Hurt thinks just the opposite. The big galoot is very sensitive (no, really) and he didn't like the "he's only a DH" stuff. So, a few years ago, he really worked on his defense. My pal says that he's improved all the way up to the level of "average major league first baseman" since then.And part of his problems with management a few years ago was that they didn't let him play the field enough to show that improvement.But I'm not sure if his recent round of injuries has started a decline in those defensive skills.

Later

Edgy DC Nov 01 2005 07:08 PM

A big honkin' difference between Thomas and Mo would be the Mets framing the commitment themselves versus the Mets inheriting much of Anaheim's commitment on Vaughn.

Nymr83 Nov 01 2005 07:39 PM

i still think he's a DH only at this point and if we signed him i doubt he'd appear in 100 games.

Frayed Knot Nov 01 2005 11:12 PM

Thomas was just barely [u:194c0e95cc]ever!![/u:194c0e95cc] anything more than a DH, and he isn't likely to become more of a fielder now as leg/foot/age issues throw numerous wrenches into his considerably large works.

metirish Nov 01 2005 11:52 PM

Hells Bells from AC/DC could soon(or not) be playing for the next closer at Shea...

]Padres' Hoffman on Mets' horizon?

BY DAVID LENNONSTAFF WRITER

November 2, 2005The Mets could add Trevor Hoffman to their shopping list of prospective closers now that he seems to be at an impasse with the Padres over a contract extension.

Hoffman, who turned 38 last month, reportedly is seeking a three-year deal worth between $25 million and $27 million. Last week, the Padres offered two years for $10 million, and that may prompt Hoffman to try the open market.

"Trevor's first choice has always been to remain a Padre. But it's looking more and more like it won't happen," Rick Thurman, Hoffman's agent, told The Associated Press. "Put it this way: Their offer made Trevor upset enough to have his locker cleaned out at the stadium."

But it may take more than that for Hoffman to uproot his family from San Diego, where he has pitched since 1993, and the Mets, nearly 3,000 miles away on the other coast, would be a long shot. Not that he doesn't fit their needs. Hoffman had 43 saves last season, with a 2.97 ERA and 54 strikeouts in 572/3 innings.

The Mets already have declined their $5.5-million option on former closer Braden Looper, and they're ready to spend for his replacement. The Phillies' Billy Wagner and Orioles' B.J. Ryan figured to be the top two targets this offseason, but if Hoffman truly wants out of San Diego, that will dramatically change the landscape.

"There are 16 teams where their closer spot is up in the air right now," Thurman said. "It's a pretty good year to be a free-agent closer."

The bullpen is number one on the Mets' list of things to address right now, and the club is already showing how much it covets the best reliever on the market.

The Mets are hungry for Billy Wagner.

The free-agent period has only been open for four days, but Wagner's agent, Bean Stringfellow, said the Mets already had been in touch with him twice. The most recent call came on Monday, Stringfellow said.

One major league executive with knowledge of the Mets' thinking said that the Mets' chief target right now is the bullpen. Another major league official said the closer is the Mets' top priority, with Wagner being the top man on their list.

Stringfellow said last night that Wagner is "definitely intrigued by the Mets."

The Phillies, with whom Wagner played for the last two seasons, have exclusive negotiating rights with Wagner through Nov. 10, so the Mets cannot offer him a contract now. With that in mind, the fact that they have already spoken to him twice is a good indicator of their strong interest. Keep in mind that last year the Mets called Scott Boras, the agent for Carlos Beltran, for 31 straight days.

The Mets have also expressed interest in free-agent relievers Tom Gordon and Trevor Hoffman, and indications are that they have done the same for B.J. Ryan. Wagner, however, is clearly the market's finest reliever. This past year, the 34-year-old flame-throwing lefty converted 38 of 41 save opportunities, posted a 1.51 ERA and struck out 87 in 772/3 innings.

Stringfellow said approximately eight clubs have called on Wagner so far. The pitcher could still return to the Phillies, though he is unlikely to re-sign with them within the exclusive negotiating period.

According to Stringfellow, Wagner will not sign for less than three years (the Phillies have already offered him a three-year contract). The agent said Wagner "wants to win a world championship, at least one," and wants to get 116 more saves to reach 400 in his career.

*

The Mets are interested in free agent Rafael Furcal as a second baseman, though Furcal has only played the position for five games in the last five years. He's also played it in winter ball, according to agent Paul Kinzer.

Kinzer said Furcal will consider teams that want him to play second base, though the Cubs are also interested and, according to Kinzer, they "want a shortstop and a leadoff hitter."

Unlike what they did two years ago when they signed Kazuo Matsui, the Mets will not consider moving Jose Reyes to second to accommodate Furcal.

*

Three teams have shown interest in Mike Piazza, according to agent Dan Lozano. There are no current talks between the Mets and the free-agent catcher, though neither side has completely ruled it out.

*

Multiple teams have expressed interest in Mike Cameron. . . . According to Lozano, the Mets have expressed interest in free agent Tony Graffanino for what Lozano termed a "super utility role." Graffanino hit .309 with seven homers with Kansas City and Boston this past year and played at least one game at every infield position. —Additional reporting by Joel Sherman

KC Nov 02 2005 07:47 AM

I realize Hoffman is effective, but I'm really hoping the Mets are goingto stay away from multi-year multi-million dollar deals for players who areabout to wrap up their long careers for other teams who are pushing 40.

Elster88 Nov 02 2005 09:01 AM

KC wrote:I realize Hoffman is effective, but I'm really hoping the Mets are goingto stay away from multi-year multi-million dollar deals for players who areabout to wrap up their long careers for other teams who are pushing 40.

Exactly

Rotblatt Nov 02 2005 09:22 AM

Me too.

Wagner would be alright on a multi-year deal, but Hoffman's old.

I'm pretty happy we're pursuing Graffanino as a utility man. That's also S-M-A-R-T. As is our reported willingness to bring Loop back in a set-up role.

So far, I'm pretty happy with our offseason outlook, at least from what I can glean from the rumor mill.

We were without a short lefthanded reliever last year for the first time in many years. Clearly, management sees a need to fill that void.

Yancy Street Gang Nov 02 2005 09:59 AM

Will they be able to find one who's shorter than John Franco?

sharpie Nov 02 2005 10:03 AM

Both Franco and Billy Wagner are listed at a generous 5'10.

Vic Sage Nov 02 2005 10:07 AM

don't like signing aging closers to long-term, big-money deals.

sign Konerko and B.Giles, then trade Cameron for pitching. Put Jacobs back behind the plate and play Whooze at second...no, wait... Whooz on first; Whats on second.

Edgy DC Nov 02 2005 10:10 AM

What sort of pitching?

The Mets have a solid seven-man rotation as it is.

Elster88 Nov 02 2005 10:14 AM

Barry Zito. I heard we could get him for Milledge.

Edgy DC Nov 02 2005 10:16 AM

Please, we're on Cammy here.

Vic Sage Nov 02 2005 10:23 AM

You can't have too much pitching.

And there are probably a number of good young relievers setting up for decent closers (Twins come immediately to mind; i'm sure there are others if i bothered to look around) that could solve our bullpen problems alot more cheaply than the $8-$9m/yr for 3-4 yrs that Wagner, Ryan, Hoffman will likely command. This allows us to spend the money on Konerko's power and Giles' OB% and all-around play.

I know folks think that Cammy is worth more than some relievers, but

1) I don't, because he's going into that "injured and aging" phase of his career, at $7m/yr;2) his offense in RF can be replaced more easily than fixing the bullpen; and3) if he IS worth more, than they might be able to GET more.

Edgy DC Nov 02 2005 10:32 AM

I hear you on number three, but I don't think he's particularly susceptible to injuries. I also think we are swimming in more or less solid relievers and don't know it.

Rotblatt Nov 02 2005 10:41 AM

Vic Sage wrote:And there are probably a number of good young relievers setting up for decent closers (Twins come immediately to mind; i'm sure there are others if i bothered to look around) that could solve our bullpen problems alot more cheaply than the $8-$9m/yr for 3-4 yrs that Wagner, Ryan, Hoffman will likely command. This allows us to spend the money on Konerko's power and Giles' OB% and all-around play.

I agree in principle, but at this point, I'm resigned to the fact that the Front Office is going to overpay a veteran reliever to come here. My hope is that they'll do that AND sign Konerko & Giles and trade Cam. In theory, we've got plenty of money to do all that and keep our payroll under $110M or so.

I also agree with Edgy that we've got a good number of solid young relievers already--Heilman, Padilla, Bell & Ring all come to mind--as well as Hernandez. However, I wouldn't have a problem adding one of Oakland or the Twinkie's good young relievers . . .

smg58 Nov 02 2005 11:38 AM

Our bullpen as it stands has Heilman, Bell, Padilla, one or both of Ring and Hamulack, probably Hernandez back, Aybar pitching well enough to warrant another look, possibly Bannister, possibly Zambrano, Soler at some point, and who knows Yates might even get healthy. Depth is not the problem. I think they do need to add one reliever to the top. Whether you go all out for one of the bigger names depends on whether or not you think you have a future closer in house, but keep in mind that it's a buyer's market for closers right now.

metirish Nov 02 2005 12:06 PM

Paul Kinzer the agent for Furcal has said that the Mets will have to pay more if they want Rafael to play second...

http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/1105/02braves.html

sharpie Nov 02 2005 12:38 PM

Don't really want to get in a bidding war with the Cubs. They've got deep pockets.

metirish Nov 02 2005 12:39 PM

Nope, and they need a SS and a number one hitter.

MFS62 Nov 02 2005 01:03 PM

Brad Ausmus is listed as a Houston Free Agent.He's from Connecticut. Do you think he would want to move back East?

Yeah, I know he's about 35 yrs old. But he is still a good defensive catcher, not exactly an automatic out, and might come a whole lot cheaper than some of the other names (e.g.- Molina and Hernandez) that have been thrown around.

Thoughts?

Later

Diamond Dad Nov 02 2005 01:22 PM
Catcher

I like Ausmus as an option if we think we've got a catcher in the organization that is a few years away from being a good big-league player (Joe Hiepus?) If not, Ausmus is just a band-aid.

I heard that Brian Schneider might be an option. I think he's got some good years ahead of him, and he'll be cheaper than the higher profile guys.

MFS62 Nov 02 2005 01:30 PM

Schneider woud be a welcome addition. But I didn't notice his name on a quick look at this list:

Ausmus is old, has zero power, doesn't hit for average and his on-base skills are related at least partly to his frequently batting 8th. No thanks.

Edgy DC Nov 02 2005 02:46 PM

Among internal candidates, I think Hietpas is Plan E. But he is playing at a higher level (Bingo and Norfolk) than a most of the candidates otherwise ahead of him. It looks like a make-or-break year for him.

Elster88 Nov 02 2005 02:47 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote:Ausmus is old, has zero power, doesn't hit for average and his on-base skills are related at least partly to his frequently batting 8th. No thanks.

Beat me to it.

Nymr83 Nov 02 2005 03:38 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I also think we are swimming in more or less solid relievers and don't know it.

i agree, i think we lack a "closer" (a guy we can honestly put in the top 20-25 relievers in basball) but we have alot of good guys, now if only those guys would be given playing time instead of sent to Norfok to work on a changeup...

Vic Sage Nov 02 2005 04:35 PM

i'm ok with trying to solve the bullpen internally. But I'd still be happy to trade Cammy for best available equivalent talent if we could use Bullpen + Cammy money on Giles and Konerko.

Even if we don't trade Cameron, I still think our NUMBER 1 FA priority should be a slugging 1bman like Konerko, rather than a closer.

Nymr83 Nov 02 2005 04:56 PM

i agree that a bat is the number 1 priority, but we aren't the d-rays, signing a closer shouldn't prevent us from getting a bat.

seawolf17 Nov 02 2005 04:58 PM

Some reporter from Philly was on with Ed & Sweeney today and said the sticking point with Wagner is going to be a guaranteed third year. Unless his arm is falling off, I have no problem giving Wagner three years. Not more than that, but three I'll give him. Or two for big bucks, then we politely ask Pedro to close in 2008.

Yancy Street Gang Nov 03 2005 10:08 AM

The Daily News reports this morning that the Mets are considering Octavio Dotel for a setup role.

smg58 Nov 03 2005 10:21 AM

Saw that one too. I'm not against keeping options open, but do we know if he's even healthy, and we need a closer more than we need set-up guys (although I might make an exception for Scott Eyre if he doesn't go above $3M a year).

Counting Dotel as a potential closer, the market now has Wagner, Ryan, Hoffmann, Guardado, Farnsworth, Looper, and Dotel. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if the CWS put Dustin Hermanson on the block. Am I missing anybody?

Wagner's agent, Bean Stringfellow, said the Mets already had been in touch with him twice since the free agent period opened last Thursday, the NY Post reports. Stringfellow said on Tuesday that Wagner is "definitely intrigued by the Mets."

The Phillies, with whom Wagner played for the last two seasons, have exclusive negotiating rights with Wagner through Nov. 10, so the Mets cannot offer him a contract now. Approximately eight clubs have contacted Stringfellow and the starting point for negotiations has been set by the Phillies with their three-year, $27 million proposal to Wagner. The Mets have also expressed interest in free-agent relievers Tom Gordon and Trevor Hoffman, and indications are that they have done the same for B.J. Ryan.

Edgy DC Nov 03 2005 12:11 PM

Bean was a Met minor leaguer.

I would have called him up in September just because.

Valadius Nov 03 2005 12:11 PM

Upon looking at my previous post... WAIT A MINUTE!

THERE'S A GUY NAMED BEAN STRINGFELLOW???

Why the hell would a parent name their kid in a way that would get him called "Stringbean" the rest of his life?

seawolf17 Nov 03 2005 02:14 PM

Isn't Dotel supposed to miss most, if not all, of this upcoming season?

Rotblatt Nov 03 2005 03:07 PM

]Isn't Dotel supposed to miss most, if not all, of this upcoming season?

He's apparently making a very fast recovery from surgery in June and is expected to be ready for Spring Training.

People are speculating that he'll get a very incentive-laden, short-term deal.

The Mets could probably land Scott Eyre and any one of Farnsworth/Dotel/Wickman/Gordon/Jones/Urbina for significantly less combined than Wagner will cost. That would still give Heilman a fair chance of winning the closer role either in March or at some point during the season, or allow a year or two to give Soler or perhaps Heath Bell time to grow into that role. There are a lot of ways you could go with this.

Johnny Dickshot Nov 04 2005 07:30 AM

Morning Met Headscratchers, Nov. 4:

Daily News

]The Mets are mulling a pursuit of Julio Franco, which would pair the veteran, righty-hitting first baseman with rookie Mike Jacobs in 2006.

Franco, 47, hit .275 with nine homers and 42 RBI in 233 at-bats for the Braves last season.

Signing an affordable first base complement such as Franco, who could assume a more regular role should Jacobs falter, would allow the Mets to devote more spending on Billy Wagner or B.J. Ryan as closer, Rafael Furcal as a second baseman and Ramon Hernandez or Bengie Molina at catcher.

]The Mets scouted Jojima heavily this year, and if they go for Jojima, that's a great call, according to my own baseball scouts. ....

Minaya has some nostalgic leanings, so nobody should rule out Julio Franco, even if his AARP card is already in the mail, but maybe Eduardo Perez (11 home runs in 161 at-bats and 11 years younger than Franco, who's listed as 47) would work. In either case, that would save some loot for the star targets.

MFS62 Nov 04 2005 07:52 AM

Another alternative for a righty first base platoon is Olmedo Saenz, who I think is about a year or two younger than Perez.

Note to Heyman: watch those AARP comments. We may be old, but we're feisty.

Later

Yancy Street Gang Nov 04 2005 08:00 AM

"his own baseball scouts"?

MFS62 Nov 04 2005 08:38 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote:"his own baseball scouts"?

I think that line deserves to be placed in the "So, You Want To Be A Sportswriter" thread Hall of Fame.

Later

metirish Nov 04 2005 09:24 AM

Jon Heyman should have his own humor thread...Mark Hale says the Mets front-office types visted Wagner at his home in Virginia...

]November 4, 2005 -- The Mets cannot offer Billy Wagner a contract yet, but they are doing just about everything else they can do right now to show the star closer their interest.

The latest step in Wagner's recruitment came on Wednesday, when several Met executives traveled to Virginia to meet with Wagner at his home, according to a person familiar with the meeting.

The meeting included Mets GM Omar Minaya, as well as assistant GM John Ricco and special assistant Tony Bernazard.

Yancy Street Gang Nov 04 2005 09:28 AM

I hope Omar doesn't speak Spanish to Wagner. That's how he screwed up the Delgado deal last year.

Edgy DC Nov 04 2005 09:53 AM

They can bring along Stu Sucherman to speak German.

smg58 Nov 04 2005 10:19 AM

I'd only see the need for a righthanded bat if Victor Diaz is involved in a trade. That's certainly possible, but the idea of one of these guys coming and taking playing time away from Diaz concerns me.

I hope the Mets show a bit more caution in how they court a Japanese player this time around. Like doing enough homework on the guy so that they know that his throwing arm cuts it on the major league level and won't necessitate a position change in a year before telling us how wonderful his defense is.

MFS62 Nov 04 2005 10:24 AM

Is there an issue with jojima's ability to speak English/communicate with his pitchers? There are a number of Americans playing in Japan. Have any of them pitched for Jojima's team? If so, did he speak English to them, or did the pitchers have to learn to speak Japanese?

Later

heep Nov 04 2005 12:54 PM

Very exciting -

and smart. Aggressively pursuing Wagner.

Signing Dotel is also very smart. He is still young and can be very effective along with Heilman as a set up man.

I don't see any credibility to Heyman's article published today. The idea of a Japanese speaking catcher who speaks little English is illogical at best.

Has Jacobs caught at all this Winter? If not, it looks like he will be the starting 1b this Spring - and I can't say I have a problem with that. He can't do any worse than the production we got this year at 1st.

Yancy Street Gang Nov 04 2005 01:08 PM

Of course, the idea isn't to avoid getting somebody worse than Mientkiewicz. The goal is to get enough production out of first base to help the team contend.

I'm not saying Jacobs can or can't do that; it remains to be seen. But saying that he'll be okay because he's not worse than Mientkiewicz kinda misses the point.

Elster88 Nov 04 2005 01:36 PM

We should keep Minky. We need his defense at first.

(I really wish ezboard hadn't crashed and burned.)

Valadius Nov 04 2005 09:40 PM

Kenji Jojima, the Japanese catcher I brought up months ago. I ought to look for that thread...

Yancy Street Gang Nov 05 2005 06:55 AM

From Newsday:

Mets set to pay WagnerBY DAVID LENNONSTAFF WRITER

November 5, 2005

The Mets are ready to beat any offer for Billy Wagner. And with the Phillies already preparing contingency plans in case they lose their free-agent closer, there is a sense that the whole process will be wrapped up quickly. It could be completed in a matter of days after the exclusive window for teams to negotiate with their own free agents closes Thursday.

The Phillies have until that time to lock up Wagner before any other team can talk salary figures with him, but he has stated his desire to test the market. With as many as 16 teams seeking a closer, Wagner, a lefthander who hits 100 mph on the radar gun, can set the terms.

One person familiar with the situation said Friday that Wagner could push for as many as four years, at a minimum of $10 million per year. Wagner has the benefit of supply-and-demand in his favor, but there are few clubs that will push that envelope. Count the Mets among them.

General manager Omar Minaya and a contingent of front-office members visited with Wagner at his Charlottesville, Va., home this week, and it seems the only way the Mets will lose out is if he decides he wants to stay put. If the determining factor is money, remember that the Mets outbid every other team for the free agents they wanted last winter.

"What impressed me about the Mets was they know exactly what they need and I felt like I was a priority," Wagner told MLB.com. "They answered some concerns that my wife and I had."

Should Wagner remain in Philadelphia, the Mets already have had preliminary discussions with the agents for Trevor Hoffman and B.J. Ryan, and both appear willing to bolt their former clubs. Wagner, 34, is considered a notch above both, but Hoffman, 38, has 436 saves on his resume and the head to handle New York.

Hoffman's agent, Rick Thurman, is skeptical that the Padres will do what's necessary to keep his client despite the fact that Hoffman has pitched in San Diego since 1993. Hoffman is seeking a three-year deal in the $27-million range, and the Padres have yet to go beyond two years for $10 million.

]One person familiar with the situation said Friday that Wagner could push for as many as four years, at a minimum of $10 million per year.

$10 million per year for a relief pitcher. I think that's nuts, but then again, it's not my money.

seawolf17 Nov 05 2005 08:18 AM

Interesting side note about Hoffman; the Padres just hired his brother Glenn to coach third base. Wonder how that plays into his plans, if at all.

Nymr83 Nov 05 2005 09:52 AM

seawolf17 wrote:Interesting side note about Hoffman; the Padres just hired his brother Glenn to coach third base. Wonder how that plays into his plans, if at all.

i feel like that has to be either a strong gesture towards him or an agreement with him to return

smg58 Nov 05 2005 10:31 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote:From Newsday:One person familiar with the situation said Friday that Wagner could push for as many as four years, at a minimum of $10 million per year. Wagner has the benefit of supply-and-demand in his favor, but there are few clubs that will push that envelope. Count the Mets among them.

What makes this so bizarre is that Wagner DOESN'T have supply and demand in his favor; yes he's the best reliever on the market, but the market is glutted with pitchers that have closing experience.

Rivera makes $10.5M per year, and Gagne makes $10M per year, so it's not unprecedented. But Wagner doesn't have Rivera's reputation or a Cy Young in his pocket. Plus, Gagne shows the risk involved with committing that much to a closer. I would pass on four years and $40M.

metirish Nov 05 2005 11:31 PM

The NY Times reports that Joey Eischen from the Nats is on the Mets radar...

]

By BEN SHPIGELPublished: November 5, 2005As the Mets continue their pursuit of the free-agent closer Billy Wagner, their top priority this off-season, they have reached out toward improving other areas of their bullpen. They have inquired about the left-handed reliever Joey Eischen, who spent last season with the Washington Nationals, Eischen's agent, Alan Nero, confirmed yesterday.

Eischen, 35, was used primarily as a situational left-hander last season, when he went 2-1 with a 3.22 earned run average in 57 appearances, and he may have made an impression on the Mets with how he handled Cliff Floyd.

Eischen would be expected to be a situational left-hander for the Mets, and possibly work as an occasional set-up man for their new closer. It is no secret that the Mets would love for that to be Wagner, and several Mets executives visited him and his agent, Bean Stringfellow, at his Virginia home on Wednesday to prove their keen interest in him, according to a baseball executive familiar with the meeting who did not want his name used out of concern that it might affect the competition for Wagner's services.

Wagner is the top closer on the market, but the Mets cannot offer him a contract until Nov. 12 because the Phillies have exclusive negotiating rights with him until then. Wagner is believed to be seeking at least a three-year deal.

Nero also said the Mets have expressed interest in another of his clients, the free-agent catcher Bengie Molina, who played for the Los Angeles Angels last season.

More Articles in Sports >

smg58 Nov 05 2005 11:42 PM

Lefties had a higher OPS against Eischen than righties did (.700 to .675), and the 19 walks in 36 IP concerns me. He's had some good years, but I wouldn't block Ring or Hamulack for him.

Edgy DC Nov 05 2005 11:44 PM

The Mets could just dig up some corpse parts out at Calvary Cemetary and build their own Joey Eischen.

metsmarathon Nov 08 2005 12:32 PM

hey! are we gonna have a free agent prediction contest this year, or am i thinking of a different site?

MFS62 Nov 08 2005 12:42 PM

="Edgy DC"]The Mets could just dig up some corpse parts out at Calvary Cemetary and build their own Joey Eischen.

Igor just informed me that even he wouldn't want to dig up something that looks like that.

Later

Nymr83 Nov 08 2005 01:27 PM

metsmarathon wrote:hey! are we gonna have a free agent prediction contest this year, or am i thinking of a different site?

set it up!

metsmarathon Nov 08 2005 03:14 PM

OK

metirish Nov 10 2005 09:27 AM

Here are today's Met rumors...Burrnett, Delgado ,Manny anf others are all in the mix..

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/mlb/mets/

Rotblatt Nov 10 2005 11:13 AM

According to the Post, Heilman is on the block.

Personally, I think that's fucking retarded.

Yancy Street Gang Nov 10 2005 11:15 AM

Are you saying Heilman should be untouchable?

I certainly wouldn't go that far.

I wouldn't be looking to dump him, but his trade value may be at its peak. Remember what everyone thought of him only seven months ago.

If he can help the Mets land a high-quality player, they have to at least consider it.

Rotblatt Nov 10 2005 11:37 AM

No, I don't think he should be untouchable, but I don't understand this whole "making him available" thing. We should make it clear that if someone want Heilman, they're going to have to blow us away because he was absolutely dominant last season, is young, and is cheap as hell.

smg58 Nov 10 2005 12:28 PM

I agree with Rottblatt where Heilman is concerned; if we can stick with him through the lean years, we can hold on to him when he starts to realize his potential. We should be talking to people who want Trachsel or Zambrano, not Heilman.

Burnett will not be worth anything close to his price.

Do the Marlins want major league or minor league help for Delgado? Or both?

Rotblatt Nov 10 2005 01:03 PM

smg58 wrote:Do the Marlins want major league or minor league help for Delgado? Or both?

I haven't read anything about their demands, but I'm guessing they'd be happy with a minor leaguer if the recepient takes on Delgado's entire salary.

It looks like the Fish are in fire sale mode--there are rumors of a Patterson for Pierre exchange.

Of course, the downside is that they're not going to want to trade to someone within the division, and if they do, we may have to throw on a little extra.

Regarding Delgado, if he gets traded, he can apply for free agency after this year. Most reports seem to think that's a negative, but I think that's a total positive. At his age, who wants him for another 3 years anyway? I'd happily pay Delgado $16M for 2005 then wave bye-bye to him.

I'd much rather overpay him for one year than for four.

Yancy Street Gang Nov 10 2005 01:30 PM

Rotblatt wrote:

Regarding Delgado, if he gets traded, he can apply for free agency after this year.

Does he have some special clause? Or does this refer to the standard right that players have if they're traded in the middle of a multi-year contract? (He can demand a trade but if he doesn't get it he can opt for free agency.)

Either way, few if any players would exercise this option. That's a lot of guaranteed money to risk.

MFS62 Nov 10 2005 02:02 PM

That standard clause allowing a player to opt for free agency if traded mid-contract bothers me.What if the Mets give up the store for Manny, and at the end of next year, he decides he wants out? His volatile personality makes that a possibility.So if they get him, I hope they don't give up too much for him.

LAter

Frayed Knot Nov 10 2005 02:30 PM

It should be noted that I don't think anyone who's in that position has ever gone through with the threat.

- The reason that clause exists is because players signing a multi-year w/a team have a right to expect that there's some sort of committment from that team. Being dealt soon afterward after often moving across the country and setting up shop for the supposed long term is not an easy thing no matter how much money you're making. What players really want of course is blanket no-trade protection - which is possible if they can negotiate it - but this was a compromise reached which gets them half way there.

- Problem is, the ones who do get dealt in the midst of a multi-year are in that position because they're most likely underachieving their deal. So they can then demand a trade all they want but most times the club will simply call their bluff until the player recinds the demand when he realizes that his underachievment means that he'll never get a new deal that'll match the back half of his current one.Cecil Fielder was the best example of this. He was dealt to the Yanx w/a year and change left on the deal he signed after reaching the then shocking 50-HR mark. The Yanx basically laughed at him when he demanded a deal and would have been thrilled if he went through with his threat to cancel the last year of the deal and go FA.

metirish Nov 10 2005 02:33 PM

Delgado also has a clause in his contract that if traded to NY his salary would increase by $1 Million to cover taxes....

Yancy Street Gang Nov 10 2005 02:34 PM

The same thing happened with Darryl Hamilton and the Mets.

Frayed Knot Nov 10 2005 02:39 PM

IOW, neither Manny nor Delgado are likely to go through with a trade demand.

Manny's deal is one of those signed during the dot-com boom so he's not getting another that'll match what he's already promised, and Delgado, because his is backloaded, won't get a better one either.

sharpie Nov 11 2005 10:08 AM

Javier Vazquez "respectfully" demanding a trade to an East Coast team.

No way I'd touch Delgado. Why help one of your division rivals get rid of a contract they can't afford?

Nymr83 Nov 13 2005 02:17 PM

because we CAN afford it and we could use the bat. i'd still prefer to pursue Konerko but if Delgado is tradeable i'd listen.

Rotblatt Nov 14 2005 09:44 AM

According to Newsday, we've contacted Konerko's agent.

Good.

]Mets contact Konerko

The Mets contacted free agent Paul Konerko in a possible admission that Manny Ramirez, Carlos Delgado, Gary Sheffield and Adam Dunn will be difficult to acquire. Konerko received a four-year, $52-million offer from the White Sox but seeks five years.

From the same article, if we traded Cameron, we most likely wouldn't give Diaz the job.

]If the Mets trade Mike Cameron, there's worry about whether Victor Diaz has the work habits to fulfill his promise. One Mets person said, "If Diaz worked like Jose Reyes, he'd be another Manny Ramirez."

From the same article, Peterson doesn't like Heilman, which is why he's on the trading block.

]Aaron Heilman's surprising spot on the trading block is related to pitching coach Rick Peterson's lack of faith in him.

If there's any truth to this at all, then fuck Peterson. Maybe it's his fault, not Willie's, that Seo & Heilman were marginalized in favor of Ishii & Zambrano.

It just makes no sense to me at all that we'd actually put Heilman on the block.

That's a silly spin. I think they'd be trying to pursue Konerko on his own merits.

]Konerko received a four-year, $52-million offer from the White Sox but seeks five years.

He's got four years at $13-mills-per, then I'd say he looks difficult to acquire also.

]From the same article, if we traded Cameron, we most likely wouldn't give Diaz the job.

Seems obvious.

]If the Mets trade Mike Cameron, there's worry about whether Victor Diaz has the work habits to fulfill his promise. One Mets person said, "If Diaz worked like Jose Reyes, he'd be another Manny Ramirez."

Anonymous quotes. What if he works like Manny Ramirez?

]Aaron Heilman's surprising spot on the trading block is related to pitching coach Rick Peterson's lack of faith in him.

Is there even an anonymous quote on this one?

]If there's any truth to this at all, then fuck Peterson. Maybe it's his fault, not Willie's, that Seo & Heilman were marginalized in favor of Ishii & Zambrano.

I'd take it easy here. Seo and Heilman were not marginalized --- at least not in any active personal sense. The Mets did what teams do, try and get the most out of the guys they're paying the most to.

]It just makes no sense to me at all that we'd actually put Heilman on the block.

"The block" is an ambiguous term that doesn't have to be read pejoratively. If he's available (and most players are), it's because the Mets have a surfeit in an area other teams have a deficit. He also perhaps has more value for poorer teams than for richer ones.

Rotblatt Nov 14 2005 10:10 AM

Edgy DC wrote:

]Aaron Heilman's surprising spot on the trading block is related to pitching coach Rick Peterson's lack of faith in him.

Is there even an anonymous quote on this one?

No. No idea where they got this from. I'm assuming someone said something along those lines but didn't want to be quoted, even anonymously.

]I'd take it easy here. Seo and Heilman were not marginalized --- at least not in any active personal sense. The Mets did what teams do, try and get the most out of the guys they're paying the most to.

I'm not sure what you mean by"active personal sense" but what I meant was that they were underutilized--foolishly, IMO. Now, I blamed Willie for that--and pretty harshly--most of the season, but if the idea floated by this "journalist" is at all valid, then maybe Peterson was behing the decisions to relegate Heilman to the back end of the bullpen most of the season and keep Seo in AAA.

]"The block" is an ambiguous term that doesn't have to be read pejoratively. If he's available (and most players are), it's because the Mets have a surfeit in an area other teams have a deficit. He also perhaps has more value for poorer teams than for richer ones.

I think it's clear that this writer meant that we were actively shopping Heilman. This is a Bad Idea, IMO, unless one thinks Heilman was a fluke last season--which it's starting to look like our Front Office does.

Johnny Dickshot Nov 14 2005 10:20 AM

Not only is "on the block" interpreted poorly, but I don't see why the papers or the fans need to interpret the Peterson-Hielman dynamic (if there even is one) as "Peterson doesn't like Heilman," or even "Peterson doesn't like Heilman so he's punishing him," as if that's how decisions were made in the org.

If there’s an issue, its prolly over what RP’s data on mechanics tell him. That might explain the earlier attempt to alter the style, which misleadingly is described as “a lack of faith,” in the newspapers and then is fused to the idea that Heilman is desirable to other teams, without regard to cause-and-effect.

As an aside, fans are strange over the whole “alter the pitching style” question. Seems as if the same ones incredulously pointing a finger at Peterson for doing with Heilman have little conflict actively advocating that certain hitters ought to change their approach.

By "active personal sense" (I agree that this is poorly phrased), I mean that any marginalization that occurred is likely not the result of a personal or professional animus toward Seo and Heilman from Randolph or Peterson, but merely teams doing what teams do. Virtually all teams stick with their high-priced guys for too long. It's business.

We can disagree with that sort of business (I do), but I need a lot more evidence before I go looking for a soap opera to explain something that's pretty common.

Back to Hanlon's Razor: "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Rotblatt Nov 14 2005 10:34 AM

]as "Peterson doesn't like Heilman," or even "Peterson doesn't like Heilman so he's punishing him," as if that's how decisions were made in the org.

Just to be clear, when I say "doesn't like him," I mean "doesn't think he's a good player."

I thought that was kind of obvious, but maybe I should be more precise . . .

on edit: and clearly, it isn't obvious, since Edgy thought I meant there was a personal problem between Heilman & Peterson too. But really, I just think that for some reason--perhaps mechanics, like JD said, or something else--Peterson doesn't think Heilman will continue to be successful next year.

Edgy DC Nov 14 2005 10:39 AM

I think if the Mets organization was as committed to Heilman in 2005 as they were to Zambrano, Rick Peterson would have also been (which isn't to say that he wasn't or isn't).

Johnny Dickshot Nov 14 2005 11:00 AM

Anyway, I don;t mean to come off a huge Peterson supporter but from what we know about him I'd suspect he bases a lot of his decisions on what the numbers tell him and that may not be limited to K-BB over a certain stretch or what have you. But if it's something, it's something.

Johnny Dickshot Nov 14 2005 11:00 AM

Anyway, I don;t mean to come off a huge Peterson supporter but from what we know about him I'd suspect he bases a lot of his decisions on what the numbers tell him and that may not be limited to K-BB over a certain stretch or what have you. But if it's something, it's something.

ESPN Radio 1000 is reporting that the Cubs are close to acquiring Juan Pierre from the Marlins for a pair of minor leaguers.No Corey Patterson? We hope the Cubs wouldn't give up Felix Pie for one year of Pierre. Parting with pitching prospects, say Rich Hill along with Sean Marshall or Renyel Pinto, would be preferable. Nov. 14 - 7:27 pm et

Hmmm... Interesting. I also read on a Mets site that it looks like the Cubs are expected to land Furcal soon, too.

ESPN Radio 1000 is reporting that the Cubs are close to acquiring Juan Pierre from the Marlins for a pair of minor leaguers.No Corey Patterson? We hope the Cubs wouldn't give up Felix Pie for one year of Pierre. Parting with pitching prospects, say Rich Hill along with Sean Marshall or Renyel Pinto, would be preferable. Nov. 14 - 7:27 pm et

Hmmm... Interesting. I also read on a Mets site that it looks like the Cubs are expected to land Furcal soon, too.

Now we get their GM drunk, swap Cameron for Miggy Cabrera, and sneak off into the night.

smg58 Nov 15 2005 12:50 AM

They might soberly take Cameron for Delgado. Or Cameron and Trachsel, which would still save them money. If their rookies perform well and Lowell rebounds (I'm assuming they'll have to play him on account of him being impossible to deal), they'll be in better shape than people realize. Then again, the Marlins wouldn't be the first team that MLB allowed Jeffrey Loria to systematically dismantle...

Valadius Nov 15 2005 09:26 PM

Jojima Visits With M's, But No Deal Yet

SEATTLE -- The agent for Japanese all-star catcher Kenji Jojima said Tuesday his client is not close to signing with the Seattle Mariners, one day after Jojima left Seattle following a weekend stay.

"The visit went well," agent Alan Nero said Tuesday morning via telephone from his Chicago-area office. "But I don't believe we are close to an agreement.

"The Mariners were incredibly hospitable. But we are still in the middle of this process. He's only visited one team. He's only been to Seattle."

The New York Mets and the San Diego Padres reportedly are also interested in Jojima, 29. The Mets are expecting to lose veteran catcher Mike Piazza to free agency this offseason. The Padres' catcher, Ramon Hernandez, is also a free agent.

Jojima, an all-star for the Fukoka Softbank Hawks, officially became a major-league baseball free agent Nov. 8. He turned down a reported three years and $22 million to stay with Fukoka.

He would be the first Japanese catcher to play in the major leagues.

Jojima batted .309, hit 24 home runs and drove in 57 in 116 games last season before he broke his left leg. He has won a Gold Glove in each of his last seven seasons for his defensive prowess.

Jojima and Nero met with Mariners executives over last weekend. Jojima also toured the city to get a feel for how it would fit his family. Seattle, of course, is already home to All-Star and Gold Glove outfielder Ichiro Suzuki, Japan's most famous sports celebrity.

The Mariners currently have two catchers on their active roster: Former San Francisco Giants backup Yorvit Torrealba, a career .250 hitter over 262 games, and Rene Rivera, a veteran of 18 major-league games.

Nero declined to reveal how many teams Jojima will visit other than the Mariners.

Last weekend, a published report in Seattle said the Mariners and Jojima were about to sign a multiyear contract. Last week, Japanese newspaper Sports Nippon even went so far to report Seattle had prepared a Mariners jersey with Jojima's name and the number 2, his Fukoka number, on the back.

The "broke his left leg" bit is a concern. Catchers don't get less fragile as they get older. That's why Hernandez would have to come cheap before I consider him.

Valadius Nov 16 2005 11:46 AM

Here's how I view Jojima:

He's a great hitter in Japan. How that translates in America remains to be seen. However, he's a Gold Glove catcher. Defense remains constant no matter what level you're playing on. I'd rather have a Gold Glove catcher than a poor defensive catcher.

metirish Nov 16 2005 11:48 AM

If that were true Val then what happened Kaz Matsui, he was supposed to be a great glove man in Japan.

on edit....I don't doubt that it should be true, you would think a great defensive player in Japan would be one over here too.

Maybe Matsui's an anomaly. I don't know. Look at Ichiro and his five Gold Gloves.

Edit: Ichiro's won five MLB Gold Gloves. I don't know what he did in Japan.

metirish Nov 16 2005 11:54 AM

Well Kaz won 4 gold gloves , I think he might be the exception,Shinjo was the bomb with his glove...

Valadius Nov 16 2005 11:56 AM

That little hop Shinjo did... I loved that!

sharpie Nov 16 2005 11:58 AM

Almost all of the fields in Japan are turf (including the one Kaz played homegames on). All of the NL fields are grass. That might account for the difference for him but not for an outfielder (or, presumably, a catcher). Don't know how ChiSox's Iguchi did here vs. Japan.

metirish Nov 16 2005 12:03 PM

From what I read the ChiSox were more than happy with Iguchi's defence and the only thing they needed to work on was the double-play ball, certainly he looked good in the play-offs.

Defense is more challenging at lesser levels. Standards are lower, fields are poorer, players are fielding more poor throws, and throwing to poorer receivers. Pitchers are bouncing more balls. Runners pursued by fielders are perhaps younger and more athletic in the minors, but maybe less foxy.

Hits are sharper in the bigs. Overspin is more biting. Bad hops are more crippling. Infielders have to play deeper and throw farther.

A guy who was considered a good defender in a lesser league may well still have some growing to do at the big-league level.

smg58 Nov 18 2005 11:41 AM

With the Mets being reportedly interested in everybody else, why has nobody (meaning the rumor mill, not CPF) mentioned Brian Giles? He's a better fielder than Manny, gets on more often (which the Mets really need), wouldn't force Floyd to move to right, would cost less money and wouldn't cost us any players, and the power difference wouldn't be nearly as dramatic as it looks if you put both Giles and Manny in Shea. If the Yankees can show serious interest in him as a centerfielder, which would be very risky, why can't the Mets show interest in him for right?

sharpie Nov 18 2005 11:46 AM

There was a buncha talk here about Giles a couple of weeks ago.

metirish Nov 18 2005 11:47 AM

Would Giles be a significant upgrade over Diaz in RF, I think not,infact I will say that Diaz hits more home runs and has more rbi than Giles next season.

I love blue and orange prospects as much as the next guy, but to mention Diaz in the same breath (or to put him above!!) a guy with a ten year career of a .955 OPS is silly.

Of course, the problem is age.

metirish Nov 18 2005 11:56 AM

Diaz is on the up while Giles is on the way down, and the slide is fast..I hope the MFY's get him....

Elster88 Nov 18 2005 11:58 AM

metirish wrote:Diaz is on the up

I hope so, too.

]Giles is on the way down

Then it should be cheap to pick him up in a trade and bat him leadoff.

Elster88 Nov 18 2005 12:00 PM

smg58 wrote:and the power difference wouldn't be nearly as dramatic as it looks if you put both Giles and Manny in Shea.

Yes it would.

metirish Nov 18 2005 12:09 PM

]Then it should be cheap to pick him up in a trade and bat him leadoff.

not likely, word is that the Yankees are going to go over $30 million for 3 years...at the expence of not playing Diaz I just don't think Giles is worth it.

Elster88 Nov 18 2005 12:17 PM

I'd take him for that much, but it's not worth a bidding war when there are other options.

Nymr83 Nov 18 2005 01:04 PM

]Then it should be cheap to pick him up in a trade and bat him leadoff.

hahaha....a great idea, but i doubt willie would lead a guy off for having an amazing OBP, that would make too much sense.

as for 3 years, $30 million thats probably about right, but if its gonna take a 4th year and more money to trump the yankees i'm not so sure its worthwhile.

Valadius Nov 18 2005 07:12 PM

Thank God Jason Kendall isn't available this offseason. If the Mets were to try for him, I would barf. His skills have eroded a ton, and he's been overrated for years anyway.

Edgy DC Nov 18 2005 08:12 PM

how did he come up?

Valadius Nov 18 2005 08:14 PM

We need a catcher, and he was traded last offseason.

GYC Nov 19 2005 03:41 PM
Marlins close to acquiring Hank Blalock

From Rotoworld.com: [url]http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&show=NL&id=6403[/url]:

]According to the Palm Beach Post, the Marlins are close to a trade that would send Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell to the Rangers for Hank Blalock and a pitching prospect.The Marlins are asking for either John Danks or Thomas Diamond, the Rangers' top two pitching prospects. Unless they back down from that, the deal may yet fall apart. Unless the Marlins are paying a portion of what Lowell is owned, Blalock alone should be enough to get a deal done. Beckett may be worth Blalock, but at $18 million over the next two years, Lowell has negative trade value. Blalock will make $13.5 million over the next three years. Nov. 19 - 2:22 am et

]According to the Palm Beach Post, the Marlins are close to a trade that would send Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell to the Rangers for Hank Blalock and a pitching prospect.The Marlins are asking for either John Danks or Thomas Diamond, the Rangers' top two pitching prospects. Unless they back down from that, the deal may yet fall apart. Unless the Marlins are paying a portion of what Lowell is owned, Blalock alone should be enough to get a deal done. Beckett may be worth Blalock, but at $18 million over the next two years, Lowell has negative trade value. Blalock will make $13.5 million over the next three years. Nov. 19 - 2:22 am et

Oh man, imagine Wright, Blalock, and Zimmerman in the same division. Actually, I'd rather not imagine Blalock in the division.

Valadius Nov 19 2005 03:49 PM

And Chipper Jones, when he's playing third.

OlerudOwned Nov 19 2005 03:50 PM

Valadius wrote:And Chipper Jones, when he's playing third.

I was more playing at the Young 3rd Basemen thing. Chipper is faaar from young (thankfully).

Valadius Nov 19 2005 03:59 PM

Kenji Jojima: Decision Expected Tuesday

Jojima (shinbone) is expected to make a decision Tuesday whether to sign with Seattle or return to Japan as the Mariners increased their offer to $6 million a year guaranteed, the Seattle Times reports.

abogdan Nov 19 2005 04:07 PM

Would that trade make Texas more or less likely to deal Soriano? They would have already somewhat filled their need for pitching by getting Beckett, which would lean against them dealing Soriano for more pitching. But, they'd also be adding a big chunk of salary with Lowell, and might then want to move Soriano so their payroll won't take a hit.

I'd also love to see the Mets get Giles, but he's going to take too many years for too much money to sign him. He's about to turn 35, and it's going to take at least three years to get him, probably four.

Valadius Nov 19 2005 06:50 PM

I don't want any 35-and-up outfielders imported. We're supposed to be starting a youth movement.

Nymr83 Nov 19 2005 07:47 PM

i have no problem with a 35 year old...but i am wary about committing for ages 36, 37, and maybe 38 now.

Update: With the Marlins about to have a fire sale, the team has discussed a potential trade of Castillo to the Mets, the Palm Beach Post reports.

Recommendation: Marlins' owner Jeffrey Loria, who is frustrated over stalled talks for a new stadium, is prepared to jettison salary from last year's club record $65 million and go with a 2006 payroll as low as $40 million, which could be the lowest in the major leagues. Other names mentioned as being on the block are Carlos Delgado, Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell -- Beckett and Lowell may both be on the way to Texas -- Paul LoDuca and Juan Pierre. Castillo would fill a major need for the Mets at second base and provide some additional speed (though he has been slowed by injuries the past few seasons), to go along with Jose Reyes at the top of the team's batting order. New York may also have inquired about LoDuca and the Marlins could have interest in Aaron Heilman, Jae Seo and Anderson Hernandez.

Update: With the Marlins about to have a fire sale, the team has discussed a potential trade of Castillo to the Mets, the Palm Beach Post reports.

Recommendation: Marlins' owner Jeffrey Loria, who is frustrated over stalled talks for a new stadium, is prepared to jettison salary from last year's club record $65 million and go with a 2006 payroll as low as $40 million, which could be the lowest in the major leagues. Other names mentioned as being on the block are Carlos Delgado, Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell -- Beckett and Lowell may both be on the way to Texas -- Paul LoDuca and Juan Pierre. Castillo would fill a major need for the Mets at second base and provide some additional speed (though he has been slowed by injuries the past few seasons), to go along with Jose Reyes at the top of the team's batting order. New York may also have inquired about LoDuca and the Marlins could have interest in Aaron Heilman, Jae Seo and Anderson Hernandez.

I dont like Heilman/Seo in a deal for Castillo. Not one bit.

Nymr83 Nov 21 2005 05:35 PM

i'd do Heilman and Matsui for Castillo and a decent prospect (think Bannister level)

Valadius Nov 21 2005 05:42 PM

That kid Hermida?

OlerudOwned Nov 21 2005 05:47 PM

Nymr83 wrote:i'd do Heilman and Matsui for Castillo and a decent prospect (think Bannister level)

That seems more easy to swallow. Thing is, Florida probably wont be willing to give up prospects in mid-firesale.

Valadius Nov 21 2005 05:54 PM

If it would get rid of salary and they ran out of options they might.

Are the Marlins cursed or something? Geez.

sharpie Nov 21 2005 05:59 PM

They won't take Matsui, they are trying to shed salary.

Valadius Nov 21 2005 06:04 PM

Considering that it would be for just the short term, they might take him. They'd be rid of his contract quickly.

cleonjones11 Nov 21 2005 06:15 PM

Castillo and Loduca would be nice..Tampa bay would get Petit Milledge and everything else for Lugo and Huff

Beginning to think Lastings Milledge will be in LF after Floyd for a long long time

heep Nov 21 2005 08:20 PM

I think if the Mets sign Wagner they become a playoff team as is. This is putting alot of confidence in the rookies, especially Jacobs and Diaz. But I have a feeling that Jacobs is the real deal, and, given the at-bats, will produce.

I'm as die-hard as they come, and I have to say I am vehemently opposed to trading Jacobs, Milledge, Petit..etc. I want to see Milledge, Petit and Bannister next year. I want to see Humber and Pelfrey in the rotation in 2007. Bring the guys up, build a dynasty from within. F Delgado. He had his chance to play for us.

At least that is how I feel.

Johnny Dickshot Nov 21 2005 08:24 PM

I wouldn't mind seeing them bring the lot of them back either. But that's placing a lot of pressure on better years from Beltran & Matsui, a good year from Diaz and Jacobs, avoiding a slide from Cliff, and finding Piazza's missing O out of Castro + ?

We already know our O wasn't quite good enough last year.

Valadius Nov 21 2005 08:30 PM

Project Jake-Monster over a full season, get a better 2B, replace Piazza, and our offense will suffice.

heep Nov 21 2005 08:42 PM

I think the Mets have given up on Matsui. I have (Mets and Marlins talking in a deal for Castillo)

Wasn't Castillo hurt last year? Again, hypothetically, trading Anderson Hernandez for Castillo. Maybe Castillo is on the down and out. Maybe Anderosn ernadez is on the up and up. I do not think it is a stretch to say Hernandez is a younger, faster version of Castillo. Slick glove, switch hit, etc.

Then again, maybe Hernandez will flop, and Castillo will hit 300 again. Decisions decisions. Why take 3 years on Ramirez, when you can get 15 from Milledge. Think long-term.

Fans take more to players who come up throught the system. I do. Does anyone have an explanation for that?

I say dump Matsui's K. Take the chance with the kids. If I have to pay to see Matsui swing at balls 2 ft. out of the zone next summer I'm going to puke.

smg58 Nov 21 2005 09:26 PM

heep wrote:I think the Mets have given up on Matsui. I have (Mets and Marlins talking in a deal for Castillo)

It's pretty clear the Mets don't want Matsui back. The question is how to get rid of him. The only rumor I've heard involves Pudge, but I can't imagine Detroit would consider Pudge for Kaz a fair deal. (Pudge's poor OBP last year notwithstanding, I don't think you could say no to them if they actually do want that.)

The Marlins already have a SS prospect they'll now have to switch to 2B assuming this deal with the Sox goes. At this point, they'll ask for pitching. I'm not sure what the Mets' plans are for Hernandez at this point, though.

There are right and wrong ways, and right and wrong situations, to deal prospects for veterans. The fact that Kazmir has already given the D-Rays more than Zambano has given the Mets says all that needs to be said about that particular trade. Right now (unlike in 03), the Mets are one or two players from contention. The trick is to find the right balance between the long-term and short-term interests of the team. Any deal that involves Lastings Milledge will probably take away from the team four years from now, for example, but it's not really clear if that's true for players like Hernandez.

heep wrote:Fans take more to players who come up throught the system. I do. Does anyone have an explanation for that?

I'm not sure if that's entirely true. It took a few months, but we all warmed up to Piazza. Fans may have more patience with a struggling rookie than they would with a struggling Carlos Beltran, but anybody who does what's expected of them will get cheers.

heep wrote:I say dump Matsui's K. Take the chance with the kids. If I have to pay to see Matsui swing at balls 2 ft. out of the zone next summer I'm going to puke.

I'd prefer giving Hernandez or Keppinger the chance over Matsui myself (although I know a few people here wouldn't). But you have to keep your expectations realistic, and you have to see if there are better options out there at an acceptable cost.

Edgy DC Nov 21 2005 10:00 PM

I don't recall swinging at balls well out of the strike zone being a particular issue with Matsui.

Valadius wrote:Project Jake-Monster over a full season, get a better 2B, replace Piazza, and our offense will suffice.

None of those things is easily done alone. Pulling them all off together is somewhat less than likely. That's just how things fall.

metirish Nov 21 2005 11:05 PM

] I don't recall swinging at balls well out of the strike zone being a particular issue with Matsui.

]

IIRC he was pretty bad hitting leftie.

abogdan Nov 23 2005 08:44 AM

[url=http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/368388p-313440c.html]Daily News[/url] sez Delgado could be a Met by tomorrow.

Edgy DC Nov 23 2005 01:53 PM

Due to a craptastic archiving error, I inadvertantly split the last 14 posts into a new thead. Sorry about that. Here they are:

This hasn't been a typical offseason so far, and I guess the Marlins have a lot to do with it.

Usually the trades don't start happening until after the prominent free agents have signed. But the Mets have already made a deal with San Diego, and the Marlins now look like they've made two big ones.

sharpie wrote: 'Course if we get Vazquez it would wreck our "no-former-Yankees" quest.

It would be beautiful for us to get a guy who was traded for an old man with a bad back and have him pitch lights out. It would also knock out some of those people who are all about the pressure of New York. _____________________________ THE LAST ALMIGHTY 119) KEVIN ELSTER POST (until I reach 11,000). Until then, O greatest shortstop of all time.

Okay, so it looks like Vazquez is owed $23M over the next two years, BUT the Yankees are paying $6M of it. So basically, he'd be getting $8.5M per year. Benson is getting $7.5M per year and has $7.5M option for 2008 with a $.5M buyout.

Vazquez is two years younger. Neither have been particularly good lately but Vazquez would seem to have a much higher ceiling, having posted ERA+s of 135 & 154. Benson has never broke 120. Vazquez is much more of a strikeout pitcher and has better control. The only real advantage that Benson has is HR/9--0.98 to 1.22--and Vazquez should be able to get away with being a fly ball pitcher at Shea.

Vazquez has also been far more durable than Benson.

If we can get Vazquez for Benson & Bannister, I'd do that in a heartbeat.

Elster88 wrote: Matsui is going to hit .315 next year with 48 doubles. Mark it down.

Hideki Matsui maybe

Centerfield Nov 23 2005 01:56 PM

Wow...great analysis Rotty.

Willets Point Nov 23 2005 02:21 PM

Edgy DC wrote:Due to a craptastic archiving error, I inadvertantly split the last 14 posts into a new thead.

You're a craptastic archivist. You better prepare yourself for an ink bath when Squiddy learns you've been messing around on his turf!

Johnny Dickshot Nov 23 2005 03:26 PM

Buster Olney on the radio reporting the Phils close to sending Thome to the White Sox for Rowland.

seawolf17 Nov 23 2005 03:29 PM

="Johnny Dickshot"]Buster Olney on the radio reporting the Phils close to sending Thome to the White Sox for Rowland.

Kelly Rowland?That's a helluva deal for the Phils. I didn't know the White Sox had her rights.

metirish Nov 23 2005 03:31 PM

Super deal for us, with the Yanks looking/needing a center fielder that's one more gone...I assume you mean Rowan..yes?

Valadius Nov 23 2005 03:32 PM

You mean Aaron Rowand?

MFS62 Nov 23 2005 03:40 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote:Buster Olney on the radio reporting the Phils close to sending Thome to the White Sox for Rowland.

Now I understand why my friend the Chisox fan told me they had interest in acquiring Juan Pierre. I couldn't see how they could have both Rowand AND Pierre in the same lineup.The GO-GO Sox were so forty-five years ago.

Later

abogdan Nov 23 2005 04:02 PM

White Sox could move Podsdnik to center, they also have prospect Brian Anderson waiting in the wings.

They could still sign Konerko to play 1B and have Thome DH.

abogdan Nov 23 2005 04:04 PM

Oh yeah, great deal for the Phils. Thome was ridiculously overpaid and they had no place for him to play with Howard at 1B. That they got someone they could plug into their lineup, let alone a top CF just entering his prime, is amazing.

Rotblatt Nov 24 2005 07:57 AM

So apparently, we're no longer considering Soriano. Good. We're also no longer considering Manny unless his price drops (I'm assuming in prospects) and/or we clear out some salary. Good.

I'm pretty happy about our offseason so far.

According to the Daily News, the D-Backs are the ones who proposed the Vazquez for Benson & Bannister trade.

If that's true, I seriously hope we're talking to the D-Backs. Maybe we can get them to take someone other than Bannister or maybe if they're high on Bannister, we can swap Zambrano for Benson.

smg58 Nov 24 2005 10:15 AM

Javy's last two years weren't that good, and the fact that he was already chased out of New York once, and that a second team wants to get rid of him after one year, is really discouraging. Although Benson hasn't pitched to his promise either. I don't see much separating the two, honestly. If they can be persuaded to part with Chad Tracy or one of their young outfielders like Carlos Quentin or Conor Jackson, I'd be willing to trade Trachsel and Bannister and take on the extra money. Otherwise it's like trading Bannister for nothing.

Edgy DC Nov 24 2005 10:52 AM

Vazquez wasn't chased out of New York, and Arizona, by all reports, doesn't want to get rid of him.

That said, I see Benson as comparable right now, but it's hard to forget that Vazquez at his best was in a stratosphere Benson has never sniffed.

Johnny Dickshot Nov 24 2005 11:27 AM

Vazquez must have been awfully frustrating for MFY fans. He'd pitch lights out for a few innings, then KABOOM. Seemed like he'd give up a 3-run homer in every start he made.

Pitchers who consistently cough up the longball make me nervous.

Nymr83 Nov 24 2005 03:45 PM

i'll take Vazquez over Benson and Bannister isn't good enough that he should stop you from making a deal. Vazquez has more upside and i believe a better strikeout rate (which is good when the infield D isn't looking so good) his love of fly balls won't hurt him at Shea where that monstrous wind seems to kill everything in the air for 2/3 of the season.

Valadius Nov 24 2005 07:57 PM

If we're building for the future, though, we should keep in mind that a new ballpark is on its way.

Nymr83 Nov 24 2005 08:22 PM

i'm not really willing to look that far into the future when it comes to building a team, if it was opening in 2007 maybe i'd take it into account foir 2006, but considering that it won't be for several years after that its pretty much irrelevant right now.

]The Phillies have stepped up their efforts to sign Gordon in recent days, according to two sources who have spoken with them. What is still unclear is whether they are willing to give Gordon the three-year contract he is looking for at age 38.

Also

]And since the Phillies need to add setup men in addition to a closer, that would free up money to reel in both. And the Phillies are also actively chasing setup men. They would have been interested in Gordon regardless of whether they signed Wagner. And they made a run at Bobby Howry before he agreed to a three-year, $13-million deal with the Cubs.

They're now believed to be honing in on deals with Wagner's predecessor with the Mets, Braden Looper, and former Brewers right-hander Rafael Santana -- both of whom would be used to set up.

I'd love to see Philly suffer Looper Cardiac Syndrome

Yancy Street Gang Nov 29 2005 10:22 AM

Rafael Santana?

Edgy DC Nov 29 2005 10:32 AM

Guess he means Julio.

Jayson crashes on autopilot.

Elster88 Nov 29 2005 10:42 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote:Vazquez must have been awfully frustrating for MFY fans. He'd pitch lights out for a few innings, then KABOOM. Seemed like he'd give up a 3-run homer in every start he made.

Pitchers who consistently cough up the longball make me nervous.

Like Pedro?

Frayed Knot Nov 29 2005 11:11 AM

Say what?!?

I didn't realize that a HR every 11.5 innings (19 in 217 IPs) was a lot.

Elster88 Nov 29 2005 11:18 AM

Oops. I read the numbers wrong. Thanks for the double check, LFK.

Elster88 Nov 29 2005 11:38 AM

With Wagner gone, the Phillies may [url=http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2239894]look to Flash[/url].

Willets Point Nov 29 2005 12:51 PM

Elster88 wrote:With Wagner gone, the Phillies may [url=http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2239894]look to Flash[/url].

Better them than us.

OlerudOwned Nov 29 2005 01:23 PM

Edgy DC wrote:Guess he means Julio.

Jayson crashes on autopilot.

I dont know if it was him, but one of them refered to Wagner as a dominant righty. I guess they're slipping.

]A native of the Dominican Republic, Nunez will likely platoon at third with David Bell, who hit just .199 against right-handers last season. Nunez hit .277 against right-handers last year.

Now for the rumor, from none other than Mark Healey and Gotham Baseball:

][url]http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1607[/url]The Yankees have been abnormally quiet these past few weeks, but that doesn't mean they haven't been hard at work.

Last week's reported interest in Philadelphia's Jason Michaels may have sown the seeds of a blockbuster type of deal that would send Carl Pavano, Eric Duncan and Jorge Posada to the Phillies in exchange for Bobby Abreu and Mike Lieberthal.

The Phillies feel Pavano can be inserted right into their rotation, Eric Duncan is their third baseman of the future, and Posada can be an upgrade over Lieberthal.

The Yankees, who have begun to shop Gary Sheffield quite actively in hopes of dealing him during the winter meetings, want to add the suddenly very available Abreu to both their lineup and in RF.

We'll keep you posted

Does this mean they think Duncan is ready for some point this coming season?

Frayed Knot Nov 29 2005 10:21 PM

]Does this mean they think Duncan is ready for some point this coming season?

If they do they're the only ones.Duncan actually regressed somewhat this past year before having a good AFL. There's also some question about his defense and about whether he'll even be a 3rd baseman in the future or need to move across the diamond.

I don't believe that rumored trade for a second. Posada has an option for next year that kicks in at a very reachable # of games (90-some games started). IOW, he'll almost certainly be very expensive ($20mil or so) over the next 2 years.I don't see Philly taking on his $20 and Pavano's $30+ just to get Eric Frickin Duncan. Lieberthal's out after this year (I believe) and Abreu's reasonable.

Edgy DC Nov 29 2005 10:25 PM

Such a deal would look good for the Mets, I think.

ScarletKnight41 Nov 29 2005 10:27 PM

Eric Duncan & Friend

Willets Point Nov 30 2005 12:36 PM

It think the Mets should go hard after Carlos Guillen, Carlos Lee and Carlos Baerga so that they may corner the All-Star Carlos market in MLB.

NEW YORK -- The Winter Meetings are on the immediate horizon, and the Mets, reveling in the momentum of their recent successes, say they are not done remodeling. That may make those without trade protection or primary roles a bit uneasy, but Aaron Heilman and Lastings Milledge need not be. Indeed, the Mets' second-most valuable reliever and their primary prospect are in position to buy some green bananas. Neither will be changing career paths anytime soon.

That became increasingly evident during the Mets' trade negotiations with the Marlins for Carlos Delgado. Heilman and Milledge would have made a more appealing package than Mike Jacobs and Yusmeiro Petit, even though Heilman would have been in position to earn more from the cost-conscious Marlins than Jacobs. As much as general manager Omar Minaya wanted Delgado's left-handed power, he wouldn't deal either.

Moreover, the Mets' reluctance to deal Heilman or Milledge was reinforced Tuesday by members of the club hierarchy as they basked in the glow of the team's signing of closer Billy Wagner. One said neither will be involved in a deal that would import Manny Ramirez, making such an acquisition even less likely. And another expressed confidence the Mets could make the trades they need to make without dealing Heilman or Milledge.

"There's nothing -- no one -- we have in mind that we think will require us to move either [Heilman or Milledge]," another person said. "We think we can make the moves we want without hurting ourselves at other positions."

The club still needs to define its catching assignments and now is more inclined to do so by trade than by signing either of the high-profile, high-priced free agent catchers -- Bengie Molina or Ramon Hernandez. The Mets believe neither would be enough of an acquisition to warrant the projected price tag. They have made offers to each, but the offers were designed to determine what the catchers won't accept.

In the unlikely event Molina or Hernandez accept the Mets' offer, the club would be pleased. But the more likely and preferred scenario is to trade for a catcher who will share the assignment with Ramon Castro and put the money not spent on a new backstop toward importing a free agent reliever.

The Mets have their eye on Toby Hall of the Devil Rays to share the work with Castro, but the Rays are hesitant about dealing unless Heilman is involved.

The value Heilman has to the Mets could decrease if a left-handed reliever were obtained, but probably not to the degree at which the Mets would feel comfortable dealing him. At this point, he is their most effective setup reliever against left-handed hitters.

And with Heilman increasing his arm strength as a starter in winter ball, he is, more than ever, the one setup reliever manager Willie Randolph can use in challenging situations without regard for left-handed or right-handed hitting. That would mean fewer pitching changes and less need for relievers to warm up.

Johnny Dickshot Nov 30 2005 04:43 PM

I don't think the Mets will deal Milledge either. I mean, I like to think that, but even assuming Omar is a retarded child attracted to big shiny things, which is how most mediots tend to discuss him, he'd have to be especially retarded to move Milledge in a Manny deal now, considering how positive the reports are, how willing the Bosox appear to be, and importantly, how the hell he's ever going to sustain the team financially in the event they do all that and still need something else, which they will.

Not only are Milledge (and Heilman) good and good bets get better, but they're assured of being good and cheap. Trading either now is dumb with a capital J.

]The Rangers have an offer out to reliever Octavio Dotel. Dotel was the Oakland A's closer in 2004 and he held that position until he had season-ending Tommy John surgery earlier this year. Dotel was with Houston before Oakland and had developed into one of the game's premier setup men, a role the Rangers would like for him to reprise in 2006 ahead of closer Francisco Cordero.

Don Horwits, the agent for Dotel, told the Dallas Morning News that his client is looking for a one-year, incentive-laden deal that would allow Dotel an opportunity to prove himself coming off surgery.

Centerfield Dec 05 2005 10:59 AM

Combining a couple of ideas in other threads....

Right now, our 6 through 9 looks like this:

6. Nady7. LoDuca8. Matsui9. Pitcher

Pretty shitty. Assuming LoDuca isn't flipped for Vazquez, he's more or less locked in at catcher. With Castillo now off the table, I'm not sure there's much out there that would significantly improve us over Matsui (plus we'd have to eat his contract anyway). That leaves only RF as a viable option for an offensive upgrade.

I'm not sure this has been discussed yet, but if Philly is looking to deal Abreu (and it's unlikely he'll get traded for Manny), why not talk to them and see who they'd need? I realize it's in the division, and they're actually looking to compete next year unlike Florida, but it would seem the two sides match up fairly decently.

We could offer pitching, such as Benson, and they could take their pick of Diaz or Nady.

I'd be shocked if the Phillies offer us Abreu, but I'd certainly ask about him.

Valadius Dec 05 2005 12:15 PM

Apparently he's being shopped rather vigorously.

Rotblatt Dec 05 2005 12:19 PM

I don't mind that 6-8. Nady/Diaz should be good for .800 OPS or over, and Lo Duca should be better than .700. Matsui might suck, but we can carry one black hole in our lineup.

And consider, we had a killer #6-8 last year, mostly because Willie was slow in advancing Wright. Mientkiewicz (.970 OPS), Woody (.875 OPS), Diaz (.884 ops) & Jake (1.248 ops) all beat the shit out of the #7 spot as well:

6. .779 OPS7. .843 OPS8. .766 OPS

Our problem was our 1-3, which we've significantly upgraded:

1. .671 OPS2. .658 OPS3. .774 OPS

Replacing Cairo with Beltran improves us dramatically, as does replacing Beltran with any of Wright, Floyd or Delgado.

seawolf17 Dec 05 2005 12:23 PM

]Sosa claims several teams want to sign him

SANTO DOMINGO, Dominican Republic -- Outfielder Sammy Sosa said he's talking with several teams interested in signing him for next season.

The Baltimore Orioles said last month they wouldn't bring back Sosa or fellow slugger Rafael Palmeiro, both of whom struggled this past season.

Sosa declined to say which teams he's talking to, but said he'll make an announcement about where he'll play sometime after the annual winter baseball meetings, which begin Monday.

"We're negotiating with several teams," Sosa said in comments published Sunday in the daily newspaper HOY, in his native Dominican Republic. "We're going to make it a surprise."

Some have speculated that Sosa could join the New York Mets, whose general manager, Omar Minaya, signed Sosa to his first professional contract in the 1980s when Minaya was a scout for the Texas Rangers.

"Sammy only needs an opportunity to play and show that he's recovered" from nagging injuries that hurt his play this year, Minaya was quoted as saying in the Sunday edition of El Nacional, another Dominican daily.

The 37-year-old Sosa came to the Orioles in a February trade with the Chicago Cubs for second baseman Jerry Hairston and two minor leaguers.

Sosa was expected to provide the Orioles with a powerful bat in the cleanup spot, but ended up hitting only .221 with 14 homers and 45 RBI in 102 games during an injury-shortened season.

Sosa said he's confident of signing with another team and playing well.

"I'm at peace because I trust in what I've done in the past. I'm Sammy Sosa and everyone remembers it," Sosa was quoted as saying in HOY.

I think he may have broken Roger Clemens record for the Hall of Famer who generated the most ill will upon leaving the team he's most associated with.

For entries before that, we have to go back to what --- the twenties with Rogers Hornsby? Did bad feelings over his departure linger?

It'll be interesting to see him try and rehab his reputation before his induction speech in 2012 or so.

OlerudOwned Dec 05 2005 07:59 PM

Blue Jays closing on Burnett to the tune of 5 years, 55 million[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2248966[/url]Reminding us all that they have a baseball team still. They even won 2 W.S. In a row!

Yancy Street Gang Dec 05 2005 08:38 PM

When a team in the AL East decides to go for it, I'm happy.

Centerfield Dec 06 2005 06:10 PM

As business hours come to a close on Day 2, I have to say, the Mets whirlwind of activity isn't quite as whirlwindy as they said it was going to be...

M&MD just reported that the A's have allowed the Mets to talk to Zito about a contract extension.

Later

soupcan Dec 07 2005 01:33 PM

But Minaya says Beane's not moving him!

Who the crap do you believe?

Yancy Street Gang Dec 07 2005 01:34 PM

If the Mets have really been granted permission, we'll hear about it. The commissioner's office has to approve of that permission.

metirish Dec 07 2005 01:35 PM

I was at a winter( union) meeting today at work and some guys there told me Zito will be a Met before sunrise....

soupcan Dec 07 2005 01:36 PM

I'm guessing that means sayonara to Milledge.

Lastings we hardly knew ye.

Elster88 Dec 07 2005 01:47 PM

soupcan wrote:I'm guessing that means sayonara to Milledge.

Lastings we hardly knew ye.

It's too bad, I guess, but I'll trade him for the existence 2006 WS ring with the words "Mets" and "Zito". I am getting very excited.

Put back the countdown until opening day, ye gods, er mods.

Frayed Knot Dec 07 2005 01:50 PM

="MFS62"]M&MD just reported that the A's have allowed the Mets to talk to Zito about a contract extension.

I was listening and didn't hear them say that.They said "there are reports" that it may be the case, and that the team would want to talk to him before any deal since you'd only be trading for 1 season but, rumors aside, they didn't say the process was already ongoing.

]If the Mets have really been granted permission, we'll hear about it. The commissioner's office has to approve of that permission.

Egg-Zactly!Also, fans also seem to think this is a lot more common than it actually is. I can't remember the last time a player - at least one w/o veto power over a trade like Unit or Schilling - willingly gave up his FA rights to pre-negotiate a deal before a trade.

seawolf17 Dec 07 2005 01:59 PM

metirish wrote:I was at a winter( union) meeting today at work and some guys there told me Zito will be a Met before sunrise....

Irish apparently is in the same union as Valadius's dad.

metirish Dec 07 2005 02:02 PM

LOL...anyway form David Lennon in Newsday..

]DALLAS -- Frustrated by the complexity of a megadeal for Manny Ramirez, the Mets have ramped up their discussions involving Barry Zito, and the club already has inquired about the possibility of signing him to an extension as part of any trade with the Athletics.

Interesting. Risky for DBacks because Estrada was really messed up by that collision at the plate w/Erstad (they hit so hard their shirts switched names) and wasn't the same after. Supposedly he's on the mend. Braves pen was a real problem last year. They drafted a college closer (Foster) who they were breaking in in September, plus they have the kid catcher (McCann) plus another they like even better (Saltalamacchia -- can they fit that name on a shirt?) rushing through the minors.One more market closes for the 2 FA catchers.

]Pads get Ray P Dewon Brazelton for Burrroughs:

A couple of disappointments swapped for each other.

sharpie Dec 07 2005 02:31 PM

At the bottom of the Estrada story it said that Ramon Hernandez is about to sign with the Orioles. If true, there goes one of them.

soupcan Dec 07 2005 02:33 PM

Excuse me but doesn't Javy Lopez catch for the O's?

Frayed Knot Dec 07 2005 02:35 PM

With the steroid boys - Sammy & Raffy - gone, I think Javy will be a DH more often than not from here on out.

soupcan Dec 07 2005 02:36 PM

I guess so.

seawolf17 Dec 07 2005 02:52 PM

The Pirates ended the season with two Redmans; they will begin 2006 with none, as lefty Mark Redman was dealt to KC for a minor leaguer. Adding a guy who went 5-15 last year to a team that lost 100 games ain't gonna be pretty.

Ken Rosenthal was right - Estrada to D-Backs for Cormier and Villarreal.

Also, the Red Sox have acquired 2B Mark Loretta from San Diego for C Doug Mirabelli.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 07 2005 04:39 PM

Why would the Pads trade Loretta for Mirabelli? Do they have a knuckleballer in need of a catcher?

smg58 Dec 07 2005 07:13 PM

They must think Mirabelli can start. I wonder if that means the Red Sox plan on keeping Shoppach after all. The Padres are making room for Josh Barfield at second, and I'm guessing will give Ben Jonson a shot in left while putting Klesko back at first. As for Loretta, he's still a solid defender and OBP guy, but his power just vanished last year. He could bounce back or nosedive.

Speaking of the Padres, they just brought back Trevor for two years and $13.5M. I don't think he's as good now as he was in his prime, but given the market for relievers that's still a bargain.

Regarding the Braves deal: Villareal had a fantastic season in 03, but I'm not sure whose brilliant idea it was to ask a 21-year-old rookie reliever for 98 innings. While he hasn't been right since, he only just turned 24 and wouldn't be Mazzone's first successful reclamation project.

Valadius Dec 07 2005 07:33 PM

Except Mazzone's now pitching coach of the Baltimore Orioles.

Nymr83 Dec 07 2005 07:36 PM

good deal for the redsox. Loretta can leadoff if Damon leaves town.

Valadius Dec 07 2005 07:38 PM

The Cubs, in their second move of the day, have agreed to terms with John Mabry, formerly with the Cardinals.

="On November 3rd, 2005, it was"]The Orioles also are expected to talk to Eric Goldschmidt, the agent for Padres catcher Ramon Hernandez, who is one of the Orioles' top targets, according to a team source. The signing of either Hernandez or the Los Angeles Angels' Bengie Molina could result in the Orioles' moving Javy Lopez to first base, filling a hole there.

DocTee Dec 07 2005 09:31 PM

Late Wednesday, another rumor popped up, with the Phillies said to have offered outfielder Bobby Abreu, catcher Mike Lieberthal and pitching prospect Gavin Floyd for lefty Barry Zito and catcher Jason Kendall.

metirish Dec 07 2005 11:16 PM

The Redsox are apparently looking to trade Renteria to the Braves in a three-team deal that would send Devil Rays shortstop Julio Lugo to Boston.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/mlb/mlbrumors.html

Rotblatt Dec 08 2005 10:24 AM

That's a great deal for Boston, even if they pay half.

Marte was being heralded as the next Wright just a year ago, and Renteria was pretty bad last year. Lugo should be an average shortstop offensively and he's supposed to be pretty good defensively, IIRC.

Lowell at first, Marte/Youkilis at third? They might look to trade Lowell or Youkilis for a 1B . . .

Gwreck Dec 08 2005 01:04 PM

First half of that Renteria deal is complete, with Renteria to Atlanta for Andy Marte.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2252297

Nymr83 Dec 08 2005 01:19 PM

renteria is overpaidm good job by boston, i hope Marte turns out to be david wright now :)

rpackrat Dec 08 2005 02:02 PM

Desperation move by the Bravos. This is shaping up as the year the Braves finally collapse.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 08 2005 02:09 PM

="rpackrat"]Desperation move by the Bravos. This is shaping up as the year the Braves finally collapse.

Heard that before.

Valadius Dec 08 2005 02:09 PM

Far too often. But one can hope.

Valadius Dec 08 2005 02:31 PM

In other news:

Jose Mesa signed with the Rockies.Tony Womack was traded to Cincy with cash for two minor leaguers.

DocTee Dec 08 2005 03:20 PM

Ray King to Colorado for Larry Bigbie.

In the rarefied air of Coors Field, how long till opponents are raking Ray King? (sorry)

smg58 Dec 08 2005 09:04 PM

Not sure what the Reds need Womack for. Those two prospects better not have any value.

I'm guessing no one is going to like this idea, but I'd give up Reyes and a superfluous pitcher in a heartbeat for Tejada. Hell, depending on who else they want I'd consider moving Milledge.

Edgy DC Dec 09 2005 10:00 AM

Your buddy Nymr already pitched it.

Elster88 Dec 09 2005 10:01 AM

Where? I should RMPL.

Nymr and I are more like Internet Acquaintances than buddies.

On edit: wow, a full day late on this one. This is why everything should be kept in one thread.

GYC Dec 10 2005 11:59 AM
Cairo still going to be in NY

Cairo still going to be in NY[url]http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/59339.htm[/url]

] CAIRO MAY BE BACK IN BRONX

By MARK HALE and GEORGE KING

Email Archives Print Reprint

December 10, 2005 -- For the second straight offseason, Miguel Cairo appears as if he will be joining a different team in the same city.

Cairo, the free-agent veteran who played this past year with the Mets and played in 2004 with the Yankees, looks to be headed back to The Bronx. The Yankees are getting close on a one-year deal with the infielder.

The 31-year-old Cairo would be a backup infielder for the Yankees.

Cairo had one of his best seasons with the Yankees two years ago after coming over from the Cardinals. In 2004, he played 122 games with the Yanks, batting .292 with six homers, 42 RBIs, 11 steals and a .346 on-base percentage in 360 at-bats.

This past year with the Mets, though, Cairo struggled. He batted only .251 in 100 games with two homers, 19 RBIs and a .296 OBP in 327 at-bats. Cairo did tally 13 steals.

Cairo can be a versatile player. He played five different positions with the Mets last year. He spent 82 games at second base but also played eight at first, three at third, two in left field and one in right.

The Yankees are believed to be interested in free agent Eduardo Perez, who hit .255 with 11 homers and a .368 OBP in just 161 at-bats with Tampa Bay this past year. The 36-year-old Perez, a right-handed hitter who played mostly first base in 2005, hit 10 of those homers in 137 at-bats against lefties. He also clobbered the Yankees this past year, going deep four times in 17 at-bats.

He just doesn't go away.

smg58 Dec 10 2005 12:11 PM

The Yankees' loss is our gain.

sharpie Dec 12 2005 03:14 PM

Phils trade Vicente Padilla to Texas for a PTBN.

MFS62 Dec 12 2005 03:26 PM

Vicente will be happy to know that they're moving the fences back in Philly just in time for him to leave for another band box.But for a PTBNL?He was a regular starter. That would have to be a pretty good player.The draft is over and the rosters prettywell secure. Why the wait? Hmmmm, could be it will be a player they will be receiving in a soon-to-be- announced deal.

Later

Valadius Dec 12 2005 06:44 PM

Kenny Rogers signed with Detroit for 2 years, $16 million. I don't know why anybody would take such a temperamental guy.

Valadius Dec 12 2005 07:47 PM

Ricardo Rincon has signed with the Cardinals for two years for $2.9 million. Also, Damion Easley has signed a 1-year, $700,000 contract with Arizona.

Valadius Dec 12 2005 08:27 PM

Devil Rays obtain right to negotiate with Japanese pitcher

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. (AP) -- Shopping for bullpen help, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays obtained the right to negotiate with Japanese League All-Star reliever Shinji Mori of the Seibu Lions.

The Devil Rays said Monday that they have until Jan. 11 to sign the 31-year-old right-hander to a contract.

Mori, a Pacific League All-Star three of the past four years, is 44-44 with a 3.39 ERA in nine seasons with Seibu. He became a full-time reliever in 2000 and was 2-2 with a 4.22 ERA in 48 appearances last season.

smg58 Dec 12 2005 11:05 PM

Valadius wrote:Kenny Rogers signed with Detroit for 2 years, $16 million. I don't know why anybody would take such a temperamental guy.

Because there isn't nearly enough pitching to go around. It could pay off if he keeps his head in check. And comes within a foot of the strike zone when the season absolutely depends on it. (Not that I harbor lasting grudges or anything...)

MFS62 Dec 13 2005 11:00 AM

Redarding the Padilla for a PTBNL trade:

And from the outgoing president of the BBWA, from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram - TR Sullivan

]The Texas Rangers acquired right-handed pitcher Vicente Padilla on Monday from the Philadelphia Phillies for a player to be named later. One of the players on the list for the Phillies to choose from is right-handed pitcher Ricardo Rodriquez. He was 2-3 with a 5.53 ERA for the Rangers last season.

Imagine, being traded for Ricky Ricardo.

Later

Rotblatt Dec 13 2005 11:08 AM

That's a great trade by Texas. They have a new GM now, right? He seems to be doing a pretty good job.

Valadius Dec 13 2005 12:39 PM

Washington has signed utilityman Robert Fick and pitcher Joey "Frankenstein" Eischen to one-year deals and signed catchers Mike DiFelice, Alberto Castillo, Wiki Gonzalez and Brandon Harper to minor league deals. Also, the Soriano trade has been made official.

KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) -- The Kansas City Royals are attempting to sign Doug Mientkiewicz, the Gold Glove first baseman best known for taking the ball from the final out of Boston's World Series win in 2004.

"We definitely have an interest and we are pursuing it," Kansas City general manager Allard Baird said Tuesday. "I do not get the feeling that anything is imminent."

Mientkiewicz, who turns 31 in June, is a career .268 hitter with 55 home runs and 305 RBIs. A good contact hitter and a top defensive first baseman, he has only 25 errors in 6,377 chances.

He spent last year with the New York Mets. Slowed by a hamstring injury, he hit .240 with 11 homers and 29 RBIs in 275 at-bats. His best year was 2001 with Minnesota, when he hit .306 with 15 homers and 74 RBIs and won a Gold Glove. In 2003, he hit .300 with 11 home runs and 65 RBIs.

Mientkiewicz would bring stability to one of the many positions where the Royals were lacking in consistency last season while losing a franchise-record 106 games. He could also provide better defense at first than the Royals have had for many seasons.

All-Star Mike Sweeney, one of several players the Royals put at first base last year, would not become a fulltime designated hitter.

"Mike would still get time in the field. We are not thinking of doing anything else," Baird said.

The Red Sox filed suit last month, asking a judge to let the team keep the infamous ball, whose ownership has been in dispute since pitcher Keith Foulke flipped it to Mientkiewicz for the out that gave Boston its first World Series since 1918.

After he was traded to the New York Mets in January, he loaned the ball to the Red Sox for one year. He would get it back "unless the ultimate issue of ownership has been otherwise resolved," the agreement said.

"The Red Sox continue to assert that their former employee, Mientkiewicz, obtained the baseball through the course of his employment, that he acquired no ownership interest and that the Red Sox are the rightful owners of the baseball," the team stated in its suit.

The Royals are have a preliminary agreement on a $700,000, one-year contract with free-agent catcher Paul Bako, a career .239 hitter who would be a backup to John Buck. He played 13 games with the Los Angeles Dodgers last year and underwent surgery on June 24 to repair his anterior cruciate ligament.

"I'd still like to find a starter and improve the outfield situation as well," Baird said.

An interesting deal, two major leaguers for one prospect, and not necessarily an elite one either. LA's got a long way to go to patch up their lineup. Perez was probably their best third base option for this year, too, and there's still no guarantee they'll get Meuller. As for Bradley, who knows maybe he'll get tired of wearing out his welcome everywhere he goes. Or maybe not.

abogdan Dec 14 2005 09:38 AM

I don't get that Dodgers/A's deal at all, unless they were really that desparate to get rid of Bradley. WFAN was reporting it incorrectly all day yesterday, as Bradley for Perez/prospect, they probably couldn't believe it either.

The biggest surprise is how much money the A's are taking on this offseason. $7 million for Loaiza, at least $5 million for Bradley in arbitration, and rumored to be going after one of Piazza/Thomas.

smg58 Dec 14 2005 09:48 AM

The latest report says they're signing Thomas. Apparently the league as a whole is doing very well right now, which makes what Loria has done with the Marlins that much harder to defend.

GYC Dec 14 2005 11:16 AM

If you don't want to read RUMORS with unnamed sources, don't read the following:

]11:08 AM EST- Buzz: Mets, Marlins, Rays 3-Way for RHP Baezposted by Matthew Cerrone…our buddy, jake, at draysbay.com, an excellent tampa bay devil rays blog, e-mailed to tell me that a rumor has been floating around on the local tampa sports radio station about a deal in the works between the mets, rays and marlins in which the mets would land RHP Danys Baez, the rays would get LHP Scott Olsen and SS Kaz Matsui, and the marlins would get OF Joey Gathright, among other swaps…

…how awkward would it be if the mets were to send RHP Victor Zambrano back to tampa bay…

…the thing is, something seems off with this deal…it doesn’t shake out right…

…either way, from what i can gather, there is definitely a new buzz coming from shea about baez…the mets want him badly…it sounds like the team is concerned about LHP Billy Wagner’s durability…so, the thinking seems to be, that having baez and RHP Aaron Heilman, together, as set-up men would help ease the load on wagner…

…now, if the mets can some how get matsui to tampa bay, even with a suit-case full of money, i’d be impressed…and if baez comes in return, with heilman staying, i’d be even more impressed…

Subsequently, in the St. Petersberg Times, Marc Topkin writes that “the Devil Rays have held advanced talks with the Marlins, Dodgers and an unidentified team and could be on the verge of a trade,” for Gathright…

No place in Topkin’s report does he mention the Mets, however….

http://www.metsblog.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/14/1449426.html

Vic Sage Dec 14 2005 11:37 AM

i wouldn't mind having Baez, and I certainly wouldn't miss Matsui, but its just absurd to think such a 1-sided deal could ever happen.

Elster88 Dec 14 2005 11:57 AM

I think I'll put out a press release:

An unnamed CPF insider stated that it was "absurd" to believe that a one sided trade such as the proposed three way deal between the Mets, Marlins, and Devil Rays would happen.

Which is more believable? This or the article two posts above? Common sense tends to trump unnamed sources.

Valadius Dec 14 2005 01:16 PM

Bill Mueller has signed with the Dodgers.

abogdan Dec 14 2005 02:27 PM

Kaz Matsui for Danys Baez? That's a WATP if I've ever heard one.

Valadius Dec 19 2005 01:42 PM

Danny Graves has signed with Cleveland, as has Steve Karsay.

Johnny Dickshot Jan 08 2006 10:00 AM

Murray Chass throws a high hard one:

]Keep It Real

If Manny Ramirez indeed has changed his mind about wanting to be traded by the Red Sox, he will pull the plug on a journalistic cottage industry that has mushroomed the past couple of months, with its operators breathlessly playing general manager and relentlessly creating multiple-team trades that have strayed far beyond the imaginations of actual general managers. That's probably why general managers are general managers, and reporters are reporters.

Mark Healey Jan 09 2006 10:50 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote:Murray Chass throws a high hard one:

]Keep It Real

If Manny Ramirez indeed has changed his mind about wanting to be traded by the Red Sox, he will pull the plug on a journalistic cottage industry that has mushroomed the past couple of months, with its operators breathlessly playing general manager and relentlessly creating multiple-team trades that have strayed far beyond the imaginations of actual general managers. That's probably why general managers are general managers, and reporters are reporters.

Murray is apparently still sorer about that line drive I hit off his knee in the NY Press League a couple of summers ago...