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The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

The Narrow Bridge was first studied by an order of monks who studied the border of life and death. The practitioners of The Narrow Bridge understand that death and life are more closely intertwined than most realize. Those trained in the proper martial arts can cross the narrow bridge that separates life from unlife. While most practitioners of The Narrow Bridge are living, it is not uncommon for undead martial warriors to also dabble in the techniques.

Although the discipline involves much use of negative energy and undeath, it also involves the use of positive energy and the ability to combat the undead. It is thus not wholly evil, but a mix of powers.

The great masters of the discipline realized the ease at which the discipline could be abused and so were very careful to not teach the discipline to many outsiders. Traditionally, a master would take on a single disciple at a time, one whose ethics and outlooks matched those of the master. However, over time the discipline has slowly become more widely practiced.

The Narrow Bridge was never taught at the Temple of Nine Swords. Due to its association with necromancy and the undead, Reshar disliked the discipline and thus never dedicated much time studying it although he did locate a master who was willing to teach him the basics. In addition to his own dislike, the highly specialized nature of much of the discipline and the reticence of masters to teach it has stopped many martial warriors from taking too much effort to master its techniques.

There are two ways to master the discipline. The first is to have been trained in it. If you choose to make a martial adept that has already been trained in the Narrow Bridge discipline at character creation, you simply replace one discipline that adept could normally learn maneuvers from with the Narrow Bridge discipline. Note that The Narrow Bridge should generally be considered a replacement discipline for swordsages and then crusaders. The supernatural nature of the discipline make it potentially inappropriate as a as a starting discipline for warblades.

The other way is to seek out a master of the Narrow Bridge disciplineľa martial adept capable of using at least 5th-level maneuvers from the discipline. You must train for a month under the master and spend 1,000 xp at the end of your training. You gain the ability to learn maneuvers from the Narrow Bridge discipline. In addition, you may exchange your maneuvers known for maneuvers of the Narrow Bridge discipline. You may exchange one maneuver of each level, and the new maneuvers you learn must be of the same level as the exchanged maneuvers, unlike normal. The difficulty of finding an appropriate mentor is left to the DM to choose.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

The Narrow Bridge Manuever List

1st Level Death to the Living: Strike- Deals 1d6 negative energy damage.Peaceful End: Strike- deals extra damage against undead and deathless targets.Soulshield: Stance- protects against effects from undead and death effects. Live Without Life: Strike-Deals 1d6 damage and prevents the target from being healed.Empower the Dead: Stance- Gives bonuses to allied undead.

2nd LevelDisrupt Necromantic Power: Strike- deals 2d6 extra damage against undead, deathless or beings capable of casting necromancy spells.Putrefy the Flesh Strike-Deals extra damage over the course of multiple rounds depending on the creature type. Fear of Death: Strike- Targets must make a will save or be frightened for 1d4 rounds.Cross the Bridge: Stance - Mindless undead treat you as undead and you take less damage from some forms of vile damage.Blind the Dead: Strike- Undead subject to this strike are unable to see you.Burn the Dead: Strike-Targets take extra fire damage and undead with light vulnerability take further damage.

3rd LevelStrength of Life: Boost- Gain 1d10 temporary hit points +1 per an initiator level.See Those who Have Yet to Die: Stance-Duplicates the Deathwatch spell.Harness The Soul's Power: Strike-Gain effects similar to the spell Death Knell that you may keep for yourself or give to an ally.Pierce Soul: Strike-Target must make a fortitude or be paralyzed.Rebuking Blow: Strike-Target is subject to a rebuke undead attempt by a cleric of your initiator level.Turning Strike: Strike-Target is subject to a turn undead attempt by a cleric of your initiator level. Walk the Narrow Bridge: Stance- You are effected less by both negative and positive energy.

4th level Momento Vixisti: Strike- Target undeas takes various penalties as it recalls life.Life Drain: Strike- Target takes 1d6 extra damage and half the damage from the attack is changed into healing energy you may bestow on yourself or an ally.The Flesh Still Lives Strike- Strike deals an extra 4d6 vile damage.Die to Serve Strike- Strike deals extra 3d6 damage and if the target dies it becomes a temporary zombie which serves you.Guardian of the Dead Stance- it becomes harder to rebuke or turn allied undead and non-allied undead have trouble creating spawn within 100 feet of you.Disrupt the Flow Strike-Undead struck have their effective hit die for turning and rebuking purposes reduced by a function of a knowledge(religion) check.

Shared Souls Stance- You and designated allies do not fail saves unless all of you fail the saves.Stand Against Death Counter- you substitute a knowledge religion check for a save against an undead being.

5th levelEven the Dead Fear Death: Strike- Undead take 5d6 damage + 1 per an initiator level and must make a will save or be panicked.None Truly Control the Dead Forever: Strike - Target must make a will save or lose control of undead it controls.Preserve the Soul: Stance- Duplicates the effects of the Death Ward spell.

6th levelSlash the Spirit Strike- Deals extra damage against incorporeal undead and ignores the miss chance against incorporeal beings. Reflect Death: Counter- Reflects back against foe any death effects you are subject to.Embrace the Vampire: Stance- gain DR 10 /silver or magic and other vampiric bonuses. Scream of the Dying: Strike deals sonic damage and on target must make a will save or be shaken.

7th levelReturn to the Grave: Stance- Allows you to make critical hits against undead.Rebuke the Controller: Strike- Deals 6d6 damage to an undead being and deals extra damage to anyone controlling it.Final Rest Strike- You deal 6d6 extra damage and undead must make a will save or be destroyed.

8th level Fear of the Coming Oblivion: Strike- You deal 10d6 extra damage and the target must make a will save or be panicked.The Flesh Crawls Strike- You deal an extra 12d6 damage and half the damage from the attack is vile damage. Destroy the Source Strike destroys an undead target as well as its spawn.

9th levelLife is Precious: Strike- Deals an extra 15d6 damage and the target must make a fortitude save or die.

You make a single melee attack. This strike deals an extra 1d6 damage against undead and deathless +1 per every 2 initiator levels. This damage is untyped. Against living beings this instead deals just 1d6 non-lethal damage.

While in this stance your soul is more strongly intertwined with your body than normal. You gain a +2 bonus on all saves against supernatural and spell-like abilities from undead and gain a +2 bonus against all death effects and fear effects(these two bonuses do not stack), and natural 1s on death effects are not automatic failures. This is an extraordinary ability.

Some things do not make life worth living. One of which can be the slow steady degradation of one's flesh. You can show people just how unpleasant that can be.

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If this strike hits, you deal an extra 1d6 vile damage and your target must make a fortitude save (DC 11 + your Wisdom modifier). If the target fails, the target may not regain hit points for 1 day per initiator level or until the creature is healed at least 1 hit point magically.

While in this stance any undead or deathless created, animated or summoned within 30 feet of you by an ally gain 2 extra hit points. These are permanent additional hit points for the created or animated undead

While any such undead remain within 30 feet of you they get a +2 bonus to turn resistance (which you may ignore when turning or rebuking them). The first time they leave the 30 foot radius this effect is permanently lost. The effect also terminates permanently when you leave this stance.

If your initiator level is at least 15 then when any such undead is animated or created you may take a free action to permanently give that undead a +2 enhancement bonus to strength.

You make a single melee attack. Your strike deals an extra 2d6 damage against undead, deathless or beings capable of casting necromancy spells. If your strike hits then you also get a +2 bonus on all saves on all necromancy spells or effects cast by the target for the next 1 round/initiator level.

You make a single melee attack. Your strike causes flesh to decay at an accelerated rate. If you strike hits then your target takes an additional 1d8 damage if it is a corporeal undead, 1d6 if it is a construct made out of flesh either in whole or part (such as a Warforged, or a Flesh Golem), and an extra 1d4 against any other being made out of flesh (such as humanoids, monstrous humanoids, etc.) At the beginning of the target's next round and every round thereafter for rounds/ half your initiator level, the target must make a fortitude save of 12 + your wisdom modifier or take an additional die of damage of the same level. A single successful save ends this effect. This is an exception to the normal rule that constructs and undead are immune to fortitude saves that do not effect objects.

If this maneuver is instead used to strike a corpse the corpse immediately putrefies into a pile of bones and black, rotten muck.

You make a single melee attack. This strike deals an extra 2d6 damage. If the strike deals damage, the target if living must make a will save (DC 12 + wisdom modifier) or be frightened for 1d4 rounds and then shaken for 1 round after that. If they save by 5 or less then the target is still shaken for 1 round.

While in this stance mindless undead treat you as undead (and thus will generally not attack you unless you attack them or they are ordered to attack). You also while in this stance gain a +2 circumstance bonus for any diplomacy check with an undead or deathless being. While in this stance you also register as undead for any divination effect or similar effect that would detect undead. Finally, any effect that would deal vile damage to you due to the creation of undead flesh (such as spells from the Necrotic Cyst line in Libris Mortis or some of the maneuvers in this discipline) the vile damage instead becomes non-lethal damage as your body automatically assimilates the undead flesh into itself.

To initiate this maneuver you must make a single melee attack. The target struck if undead or deathless must make a will save (DC 12 + your wisdom modifier) or be unable to detect you by any means as if you had an effect identical to the spell Hide from Undead with your initiator level for your effective caster level. This effect terminates if you take any aggressive action towards that undead being. Only intelligent beings are allowed a save.

With your melee strike your weapon momentarily bursts into a blinding flash of light and fire. You make a single melee attack. Your melee attack does an extra 1d6 fire damage and the target struck must make a fortitude save (DC 12 + your wisdom modifier) or be dazzled for 2d6 rounds. Additionally, undead with any form of light vulnerability take an extra 1d6 damage and if have fewer hit die than half your initiator level are destroyed with no save.

A corpse that is hit by this strike is immediately consumed in a flash of fire leaving nothing but dust. The resulting flash causes all beings within 20 feet other than you to need to make a fortitude save or be dazzled for 2d6 rounds.

You understand the power that exists in the bond between soul and body and can harness the resulting energy when that bond snaps.

To use this maneuver you must make a coup de grace attack (unlike a normal coup de grace, using this maneuver makes the coup de grace take only a standard action). The save DC for the coup de grace is increased by your wisdom modifier (if positive). If the target dies (either from a loss of hit points or a failure of their save), you gain all the benefits of the Death Knell spell with your initiator level as your effective caster level. For the duration of the effect your initiator level is also treated as 1 higher. As long as the duration has not yet expired you may transfer the benefits of this effect to any willing being with a touch. Doing so makes you lose all the benefits but the other being gains them for the remaining duration.

Alternatively, instead of gaining the benefits of Death Knell you may choose to recover one expended maneuver (possibly this one). If you are a crusader the maneuver recovered is automatically granted to you.

This strike disrupts temporarily the delicate bonds that normally connect soul, mind and body. You make a single melee attack. If the attack is successful, the target must make a fortitude save (DC 13 + wisdom modifier) or be paralyzed for initiator/2 rounds. Whether or not they make the save, they take a -2 penalty on all saves against (mind-affecting) affects for 1 round /initiator level.

You make a single melee attack. If the attack is successful the target is subject to the equivalent of a rebuke attempt with your your effective cleric level equal to your initiator level or your normal level for rebuking (if any), whichever is higher. The ability to use this strike does not count as the ability to rebuke undead for any prerequisite that requires the ability to rebuke undead.

You make a single melee attack. If the attack is successful the target is subject to the equivalent of a turn attempt with your effective cleric level equal to your initiator level or your normal level for turning (if any), whichever is higher. The ability to use this strike does not count as the ability to turn undead for any prerequisite that requires the ability to turn undead.

While in this stance you take half as much of any damage you would get from positive energy or negative energy effects and are healed by half as much as you would be healed by positive energy and negative energy effects. You also have an effect identical to blindsight out to 30 feet that works only for any being capable of turning or rebuking undead (and so you can immediately tell if someone is able to turn or rebuke undead).

Additionally,while in this stance you subconsciously control the positive and negative energy around you. You and any ally within 60 feet is treated as having its effective cleric level as 2 higher for turning and rebuking purposes. Also, if you personally are capable of either turning or rebuking undead then while in this stance you can expend 2 turn or 2 rebuke attempts to instead do the other type (that is rebuke if you normally turn or turn if you normally rebuke) at effective cleric level half your normal effective cleric level (min 1). Also, you can move out of this stance to another stance as a move action if you expend a turn or rebuke attempt.

You make a single melee attack. Your strike must hit a being that was formerly alive (whether now undead, deathless, a construct, etc.) The being must make a will save (DC 14 + wisdom modifier) or have the details of its past life come rushing back to it. It becomes briefly overwhelmed by the emotion and becomes aware of the mockery of what it once was. The target is stunned for 1d4 rounds (this is an exception to the normal rules that might make such a creature immune to stunning). If the target succeeds on its save by 5 or less it is instead dazed for 1 round (this is an exception to the normal rules that might make such a creature immune to daze).

Can someone who has studied latin more recently than me let me know if the Latin name here is correct? It was meant to be a play on Momento Mori but I'm not sure it is correct. It should be "Remember that you lived."

You make a single melee attack. This strike does an extra 1d6 damage to a target. Additionally, half the damage dealt by the attack is temporarily stored in your weapon. You can for up to 1 round/initiator level take a swift action to transfer the drained life to yourself or an ally (using an ally requires being able to touch the ally with your weapon or to touch the ally with your hand while holding the weapon). Doing so heals you (or the ally) the stored amount (the healing power is neither positive or negative energy). You cannot have life stored simultaneously from more than 1 copy of this maneuver. Using another copy causes any preexisting life stored by you (whether in the same weapon or a different weapon) to be lost.

You make a single melee attack. This strike does an extra 3d6 damage against living creatures. Additionally, if the attack is successful and the being dies in the next minute and has a reasonably intact corpse then the being rises 1 round after death as a zombie under your control. Zombies created by this last 1 round/initiator level from time of rising before crumbling to dust. Zombies controlled in this fashion do not count against your total controlled undead for any purpose that limits your maximum number or amount of undead controlled (such as animate dead or rebuking undead).

This stance provides two benefits: First, while in this stance any undead or deathless in 30 feet that are allied with you or controlled by you (or are you) gain a +4 bonus on turn and rebuke attempts and cannot be destroyed by turn attempts.

Additionally, any effect by any undead not allied with you that would create spawn within 100 feet of you or any attempt to create or animate undead by a being that is not allied with you must make a charisma check opposed to your initiator level + wisdom modifier or the attempt to create a spawn or animate dead automatically fails.

You disrupt the flow of a negative energy to an undead making it more vulnerable. You make a single melee attack. If you succeed on your melee attack, you make a knowledge(religion) check. The undead being takes additional damage equal to your check/2 and for rounds equal to your initiator level /2 has its total hit die for turning and rebuking attempts treated as reduced by the check result /4. Multiple uses of this strike do not stack.

Alternatively, this strike disrupts the ability to channel the positive and negative energy that a being is able to consciously channel. Any target which is able to rebuke or turn undead must make a will save (DC 14 + your wisdom modifier) or become unable to turn or rebuke undead for 1 minute/initiator level. Also, if the target fails its save by at least 5 then it loses 1d6 daily uses of either turning or rebuking.

When you enter this stance you designate up to one ally per every 5 initiator levels. While at least two of those allies (possibly yourself) are in 60 feet of you and you are subject to the same either (mind-affecting) or (death)
effect and one of you makes the save the other one automatically makes their save also even if they would not have. This does not apply to effects that only one of you needs to make a save on (such as if one of you were protected by a Death Ward spell). You can as a swift action change which allies you have designated as sharing souls.

You may use this maneuver when you are subject to either an attack by an undead or deathless being or are called on to make a save against a death effect or a supernatural or spell-like ability used by an undead or deathless being. If used in response to an attack, you make a knowledge(religion) check and add 1/2 of the check result as a bonus to your AC.

If used in response to having to make a save, you substitute a knowledge(religion) check for rolling the save. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on the save if being using the ability is an undead or deathless of a type you have recognized due to a knowledge(religion) check. You get a +1 circumstance bonus if you recognized the type of being due to a different knowledge skill. The DC is the same as would be for the save. Since this is a skill check, a 1 is not an automatic failure and a 20 is not an automatic success.

You make a single melee attack. Your attack deals 5d6 damage + 1 per an initiator level against a target undead or deathless. Additionally, if the attack hits, that being must make a will save (DC 15 + wisdom modifier) or be panicked for 1d4 rounds.

You make a single melee attack. If your melee attack succeeds, the target must make a will save (DC 15 + wisdom modifier). If it fails, it loses 1d6 undead it controls starting with those with the most hit die. For each undead lost in this way, the target takes takes additional damage equal to the number of hit die the undead had. Additionally, if this additional damage or the original strike slays the target then any undead freed by the strike transfer temporarily to your control for 1 round/initiator level.

While in this stance your soul is particularly strongly tied to your body. You are treated as being under effects identical to the spell Death Ward with your initiator level as your effective caster level.

Your weapon vibrates as you strike, echoing the screams of the dead and dying. You make a single melee attack. This strikes deals an extra 5d6 sonic damage and whether or not the strike hits the target must make a will save (DC 16 + your wisdom modifier) or become shaken for 2d4 rounds.

You make a single melee attack. This strike deals an extra 3d6 damage (but 7d6 if the target is an incorporeal undead). Additionally, when making this strike against an incorporeal foe (whether or not it is undead), your attack is treated as having the Ghost Touch property.

You initiate this counter when you are subject to any necromantic effect or death effect. The creator of the effect is subject to an identical effect (with the same save DC etc.) If they fail their save you then get a +4 bonus on your save.

You take on some of the aspects of a vampire. While in this stance, you gain DR 10/ silver or magic and get a +4 racial bonus to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Any melee attack you make that deals damage causes you to heal 1 hit point. You can be turned (but not rebuked) like any undead being with any form of successful turning making you lose this stance and being unable to resume the stance for 1d6 rounds (if you are able to be turned this occurs in addition to any other results of being turned).

This stance grants three benefits. First, While in this stance you may make critical hits against undead and deathless. To confirm such a critical hit you make a knowledge(religion) check and use that in place of a roll to confirm. If you have some other ability that allows you to make critical hits against undead or deathless, you may make the attack roll to confirm and make the knowledge(religion) check and then choose which roll to use.

Second, you may each round make an additional attack of opportunity against undead or deathless without it counting against your normal limit in number of attacks of opportunity.

Third, while in this stance, your critical threat range for any weapon associated with the discipline is increased by 1 against all targets.

You make a single melee attack. Your melee attack deals an extra 6d6 damage to the target. Additionally, if the target is an undead being under someone's control then the controller takes additional damage equal to the amount of damage dealt to the target +1 additional damage for every hit die the target being has and +1 per an initiator level.

You make a single melee attack. Your melee attack deals an extra 6d6 damage. If the target is undead or deathless it must make a will save with DC equal to 17 + your wisdom modifier or be destroyed. Additionally, any being that dies within 24 hours of being subject to this strike has difficulty having the corpse turned into undead or deathless or being resurrected. Any attempt to create undead, animate undead or resurrect or raise the dead being must succeed on a caster level check (DC 15 + your initiator level) to succeed.

You make a single melee attack. Your successful melee attack deals an extra 10d6 damage and if the target is living must make a will save against (DC 18 + your wisdom modifier) or be panicked for 3d6 rounds. Also, any being that fails its save or succeeds on its save by less than 5 automatically loses 1d3 readied maneuvers (if it has any maneuvers).

You make a single melee attack. This strikes does an extra 12d6 damage to a target. If the target fails a fortitude (DC 18 + wisdom modifier) save then half the damage from the attack is vile damage as undead flesh grows into the wound.

The undead flesh is active and constantly squirms and writhes producing a disgusting sensation. While any of the vile damage from this strike is still unhealed, the target takes a -2 penalty to dexterity, a -4 penalty to all concentration checks, and a -2 penalty on all charisma based skill checks.

The undead flesh also acts as a conduit for necromantic power. While any of the vile damage from this strike remains the target takes a -2 penalty on all saves against necromancy spells or effects and any necromancy spells, spell-like abilities or other necromancy effects that would be subject to spell resistance (such as certain mysteries) automatically penetrate any spell resistance the individual has.

If the target has vile damage from multiple sources, vile damage from this strike is healed last.

You channel disruptive necromantic impulses with the force of your blow. To initiate this maneuver you must make a single melee attack. If you hit an undead being, that being takes an additional 10d6 damage and must make a will save (DC 18 + your wisdom modifier). If the target fails the will save, it is destroyed, and the necromantic energy cascades through to the creature's spawn. Any spawn created by the creature are treated to being subject to the same effect as if they had been struck by this maneuver. For purposes of this maneuver, spawn are any creature created by supernatural means that arise from a creature's templates or creature type, not class features. (For example, ghouls created by a ghoul or new bodaks created by a bodak would count as spawn, but undead animated by a lich using animate dead would not count.)

You make a single melee attack. Your melee attack deals an extra 15d6 damage and if the attack is successful the must make a fortitude save (DC 19 + your wisdom modifier) or die. If the target has fewer hit die than half your initiator level it dies with no save. A targets that dies from this attack (either from the damage or from failing their save) rises as zombies under your control for 1 round/initiator level before crumbling to dust. Zombies controlled this way do not count against any total control pool such as for animate dead.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

um, just so you know, no class gives access to stances past about 8th level ones, mostly because there are no ninth level stances. which means that embrace the wraith will only be useable with a feat, or with crazy prestige classing.

unless you are eventually going to write up a base class for them, in which case, I will just be wrong.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Originally Posted by unosarta

um, just so you know, no class gives access to stances past about 8th level ones, mostly because there are no ninth level stances. which means that embrace the wraith will only be useable with a feat, or with crazy prestige classing.

unless you are eventually going to write up a base class for them, in which case, I will just be wrong.

No. That was deliberate. Incorporeality at will is extremely powerful. It was intended to only be easily taken by either an epic character or someone who burned a feat slot. (The other option I thought of was to have it at 8th level but only have it be usable a certain amount of time daily which doesn't fit with the general way stances function).

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Ok. I've cleaned up the wording of some of the maneuvers. I'd appreciate input on the balance level. In particular, I'm worried that the discipline might be broken in an undead heavy campaign and too weak in a campaign without many undead. I think the maneuvers focusing on living beings help make up for that but I'm not sure.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Originally Posted by Iferus

How does one gain these maneuvres? Is it all available to any martial character? This discipline requires a feat to enter- perhaps something for you to consider?

Possibly. I know that one common method people use when they let a martial adept take a different discipline is just swap it out for one of the disciplines they would have normally. However the truth is that there's nothing unbalanced with just letting them take additional disciplines as they please. In fact, a character who takes maneuvers from a wide variety of disciplines will actually generally be slightly weaker than a character who focuses on a few. This is because the character will have difficulty qualifying for that many high level maneuvers.

In any event, if one is using a non-standard discipline one should presumably also have some sort of RP explanation for where one picked it up from.

What I'd really like is some feedback on the power level. I'm not sure if this is overpowered, underpowered or just right.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

I'm kinda rushed right now, but what I can tell you is this:

- DCs for maneuvers work much like spells' DCs, it's 10 + Maneuver Level + Ability modifier. So your DCs should also follow that rule. Ie: Momento Vixisti has a base DC of 12, it should be 14.
- You have too many maneuvers. It makes for a discipline with a lot more versatility than others, which results IMO in a much stronger Discipline.
- When you describe your Maneuvers, you should really precise if a "Single Melee Attack" or a "Melee Attack" is required, or it could lead to confusion and slow down play when at the table. It could also lead to some abuse by players.

Aside from those things, as I see it now, it's really flavorful. When I get more time, I'll read more in detail.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Originally Posted by Cedrass

I'm kinda rushed right now, but what I can tell you is this:

- DCs for maneuvers work much like spells' DCs, it's 10 + Maneuver Level + Ability modifier. So your DCs should also follow that rule. Ie: Momento Vixisti has a base DC of 12, it should be 14.
- You have too many maneuvers. It makes for a discipline with a lot more versatility than others, which results IMO in a much stronger Discipline.
- When you describe your Maneuvers, you should really precise if a "Single Melee Attack" or a "Melee Attack" is required, or it could lead to confusion and slow down play when at the table. It could also lead to some abuse by players.

Aside from those things, as I see it now, it's really flavorful. When I get more time, I'll read more in detail.

Ok. Fixed the DCs and specified single melee attack when intended.

Regarding the number of maneuvers: Is that really going to be an issue? So many of the manuevers are highly specialized and aren't going to be useful aside from very narrow circumstances (roughly half are basically useless if there aren't any undead or deathless around). If it is a problem is there any way to fix it? I'm loathe to simply remove material.

Edit: If I took Iferus's suggestion and required a feat to take the maneuvers would that be enough to deal with the versatility from the large number of maneuvers?

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

First I would like to say, excellent discipline.. now I have one concern.

Why are you requiring an adapt to possess a feat to gain access to a discipline? Yes the discipline has a good number of maneuvers that have to be chosen by a Swordsage, Crusader or Warblade that fits within the Swordsage's maximum of 25 known, Crusader's 14 and a Warblade's 13 as well as compete against the myriad of other disciplines both from the ToB as well as from Homebrewed sources. But my concern is that by requiring them to have one feat to gain access to an excellent discipline may very well push them towards other disciplines like the ToB's Tiger Claw or the homebrewed Black Lotus or others that do not have this restriction thus freeing up a feat for usage and becoming all the more appealing.

I do like the idea of having to use a feat to gain access to the 9th tier stance, first one I have seen, Congrats.

I plan on playing a Swordsage that uses this discipline very soon in fact and just wanted to voice my concern on the one fact.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Originally Posted by Death's Shadow

First I would like to say, excellent discipline.. now I have one concern.

Why are you requiring an adapt to possess a feat to gain access to a discipline? Yes the discipline has a good number of maneuvers that have to be chosen by a Swordsage, Crusader or Warblade that fits within the Swordsage's maximum of 25 known, Crusader's 14 and a Warblade's 13 as well as compete against the myriad of other disciplines both from the ToB as well as from Homebrewed sources. But my concern is that by requiring them to have one feat to gain access to an excellent discipline may very well push them towards other disciplines like the ToB's Tiger Claw or the homebrewed Black Lotus or others that do not have this restriction thus freeing up a feat for usage and becoming all the more appealing.

I do like the idea of having to use a feat to gain access to the 9th tier stance, first one I have seen, Congrats.

I plan on playing a Swordsage that uses this discipline very soon in fact and just wanted to voice my concern on the one fact.

Well, feel free to ignore the feat requirement if you don't like it. It was suggested by some of the individuals in the thread. Could people give more input on whether or not they feel a feat or some other special requirement should be necessary?

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Well, feel free to ignore the feat requirement if you don't like it. It was suggested by some of the individuals in the thread. Could people give more input on whether or not they feel a feat or some other special requirement should be necessary?

Honestly, the discipline choices are flavor more than anything else. The warblade is the tough, skilled fighter-replacement, the crusader is the divine-inspired, defensive paladin-replacement, and the swordsage is the mystical, mysterious monk-replacement...so the warblade is the only one with tough, skilled Iron Heart, the crusader is the only one with the divine-inspired, defensive Devoted Spirit, and the swordsage is the only one with the mystical, mysterious Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand.

The real measure of balance here is the number of disciplines they have access to--you can always pick up maneuvers from an out-of-class discipline with feats and PrCs, and the existing synergies don't really apply to new disciplines. If you swap out an existing discipline for this one, you definitely don't need a feat. If you just give it out to anyone, you probably don't need a feat; all three initiators get it, so like Stone Dragon it's not anyone's schtick and so doesn't really need to be protected.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Personally, I'd stay with the feat requirement to take it since it has so many maneuvers; it's quite a versatile discipline. The Unquiet Twilight homebrew discipline is similar, but more about evil necromancy than balance. All in all, I quite like this. I'll bookmark it and may well use it.

Originally Posted by Thespianus

I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

I would make it an alternate choice for Devoted Spirit myself. "Upon entering Crusader class, the initiator must choose either Devoted Spirit or The Narrow Bridge discipline to master. The other discipline becomes barred to the initiator" kinda thing.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

This seems to be more of a Swordsage discipline than anything else. And I think(hope) that was the creator's intention:

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

All Narrow Bridge maneuvers are supernatural unless stated otherwise.

I don't know about you, but I was pretty sure swordsages were the only ones who normally get supernatural maneuvers.

Although I would really just allow it to be swapped for any discipline the same way most of the homebrew disciplines are. Because, as the OP mentioned earlier, the discipline is very circumstantial and spreading out maneuver choices over different disciplines makes your character severely weaker.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

This seems to be more of a Swordsage discipline than anything else. And I think(hope) that was the creator's intention:

I don't know about you, but I was pretty sure swordsages were the only ones who normally get supernatural maneuvers.

Although I would really just allow it to be swapped for any discipline the same way most of the homebrew disciplines are. Because, as the OP mentioned earlier, the discipline is very circumstantial and spreading out maneuver choices over different disciplines makes your character severely weaker.

It probably would be a Swordsage discipline. I suppose since this is getting added to The Age of Warriors book, I should maybe just throw in The Demented One's wording for alternate disciplines with the caveat that it should normally be applied just to swordsages.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Demented One's mechanic still allows for a discipline to be limited to specific classes, it just says how those classes get access to it, so that crusaders don't end up with too many options (since their lack of options is one of the things that balances them).

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Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Originally Posted by DracoDei

Demented One's mechanic still allows for a discipline to be limited to specific classes, it just says how those classes get access to it, so that crusaders don't end up with too many options (since their lack of options is one of the things that balances them).

Hmm, that actually raises an issue I had not thought about. Although the discipline seems thematically ok for crusaders, it is a very flexible discipline (a lot of maneuvers and a lot of variation in the type of damage dealt). Is letting crusaders have access potentially wrecking their balance?

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

I had the same concern about Falling Anvil (does Bludgeoning, Electricity, and Fire, all at range, plus a host of negative status effects and defenses). The message I seemed to be getting from people was "Don't worry about it." Then again Falling Anvil (of the classes in the actual ToB) is aimed at Sword Sages, so you might take that with a grain of salt. You might say that you have to give up TWO other disciplines to access it, but I don't really know.

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Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Originally Posted by DracoDei

I had the same concern about Falling Anvil (does Bludgeoning, Electricity, and Fire, all at range, plus a host of negative status effects and defenses). The message I seemed to be getting from people was "Don't worry about it." Then again Falling Anvil (of the classes in the actual ToB) is aimed at Sword Sages, so you might take that with a grain of salt. You might say that you have to give up TWO other disciplines to access it, but I don't really know.

Hmm, probably fine then. There are three maneuvers that are relevant for this purpose, one that deals fires, but mainly to undead, one that deals sonic, and one that dispells magic. So probably ok.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

(in character) Hi there, I'm Danzig Nyttafjell, battlemage, and self-proclaimed Nemesis of the Dead.
(out of character) Great discipline, I love how it can cut both ways ...That said, I don't suppose you could include more anti-undead themed maneuvers? It does seem to favour necromancy and creation/bolstering/control of the undead more than combating them. Like, for instance at 8th level, another straight-up anti-undead strike would go really well. Among other levels...

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

Originally Posted by Danzig

(in character) Hi there, I'm Danzig Nyttafjell, battlemage, and self-proclaimed Nemesis of the Dead.
(out of character) Great discipline, I love how it can cut both ways ...That said, I don't suppose you could include more anti-undead themed maneuvers? It does seem to favour necromancy and creation/bolstering/control of the undead more than combating them. Like, for instance at 8th level, another straight-up anti-undead strike would go really well. Among other levels...

Just something to chew on.

Well, there's actually a discussion going on in the Age of Warriors thread about reducing the total number of maneuvers because it is already larger than standard for a discipline. I don't think fitting in more would really be a great idea at this point (although I agree that an 8th level anti-undead strike would be nice).

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

"Shout... shout... let it all out... these are the things I can do without..."

In response to the calls for this discipline to pare back some of the maneuvers, I present a short list of the maneuvers and stances you could afford to lose, IMO (with reasons).

Avoid Death's Touch - Already have a decent anti-undead stance at 1st level, also this is too dependent on movement, and the payoff really isn't that impressive either.

Channel The Power - Too dependent on either the presence of a cleric in the party, or having cleric levels.

Blind The Dead - Why blind the dead when you can simply do extra damage to them, or destroy certain ones outright?

Fear of Death - Fear is no guarantee of victory in and of itself, and indeed, certain targets are completely immune to fear effects. There's a discipline out there that could use a fear effect like this and it's more in line with the theme, but I can't recall the name off the top of my head.

Scream of the Dying - Sonic damage is more in line with a sound-based discipline like Lost Lyrics or Holy Word, and shaken isn't really worth it for one target. Once again, the fear immunity of certain targets would apply here.

All Things Come To An End - Doesn't really fit with the theme of this class (undeath), being more suited for something like Solaris Arcanum

Stand Against Death - Sure, a counter that replaces a save against certain attacks is handy, but it's only a counter against one attack. And the save bonus isn't that impressive.

Momento Vixisti - First, undead can't be stunned or dazed, and secondly, even if they were, it's no guarantee they are even that helpless. Certain undead (like for instance Angel of Decay) have dangerous abilities that are active non-stop.

The Flesh Still Lives - With a few exceptions, vile damage seems to be more the province of evil magic rather than necromancy (especially corrupt magic). Not to mention, being able to do 1 less die of non-vile damage and raise the slain target as a zombie (Die To Serve) seems like a much more attractive option, as does Life Drain.

Chill of Death - Cold damage, while having the image of "chill of the grave " to it, would be better suited to a discipline like Placid Lake (which utilizes cold). Unless, however, you were going for something approximating Kelgore's Grave Mist or Chill Touch...?

Embrace The Wraith - Honestly, no discipline I've ever seen has had anything at 9th level besides one mighty strike. Although, I did see one which had four of those at 9th level. This would be better as an epic feat for this discipline.

Now, as to my recommendations, I would say that to balance it out, every level (except 9th) should have at least two or more anti-undead maneuvers or stances, to balance out the pro-necromancy stuff. If a level has a necromantic stance like Embrace The Vampire, it should have the antithetic opposite as a stance available.

This would mean there would be a few anti-undead maneuvers added to the higher levels to balance it out, as the lower-level ones are adequately represented. 8th level is sorely lacking, especially.

Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

I don't think you should cut anything. Do the 2 for 1 if necessary, but don't cut out anything unless it really is something that really doesn't work in the first place.

Having skimmed the first part of the previous post I would say that lack of options other than dealing damage (or the occasional SoD) is a PROBLEM that most people have with melee types. Thus "Blind the Dead" is exactly the sort of thing that SHOULDN'T go.

Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-07-03 at 08:11 AM.

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Re: The Narrow Bridge (3.5 undeath themed ToB discipline)

DracoDei, I'm with you on the "don't cut anything", but if we needed to, those are just my choices for cutting. I understand JoshuaZ has created a discipline that cuts both ways when it comes to undeath. Since the character I play is a vampire hunter and a warblade in addition to being a battlemage (a homebrew class I posted at both D&D wikis), and he quests in a largely-undead city ruled by a vampire lord, you can understand my interest in this class. That's why I spoke up about balancing it more to reflect his statement, about the Narrow Bridge not being just about evil necromancy, but a mix of powers. Since we apparently have to do a little pruning back on the number of maneuvers in this discipline in the first place before we could add anything, that's why I wrote the list I posted.