Post by jpen on Jun 13, 2011 18:05:46 GMT -5

I just wish they could have wanted to get married because they WANTED to and didn't act like they were just "pals" needing to do it to please the audience one last time. I know they never get married, because the priest can tell that it wouldn't be because they were "into each other" anymore...It would be to appease the audience (us). If it was meaningful, like a nice proposal by David and wedding because they are totally in LOVE with each other than ok, I'm okay with all events and seasons leading up to THAT moment. But, they let me down to tell you the truth. The characters didn't "act" like they loved each other romantically anymore. This is just my opinion. If I am missing something, please tell me.

Totally agree, MFD, and I don't think you're missing anything. I feel like, in that last scene, M&D are in a place where they're simultaneously having to face some of the choices they've made (and, if it doesn't sound too "meta"--the writers are having to face their choices as well)...but at the same time, they're looking back on all of these wonderful moments...moments that made them (and the show) who & what they are.

And therein lies the hope, I think...when the scene fades to black, M&D are still sitting on the steps together. So the door isn't shut...not completely, anyway.

Totally agree that the whole fake kiss/priest scene is devastating, and make it seem as though everything we were promised (i.e. that David and Maddie are meant for each other) was a lie. But I think the montage goes some way toward correcting that...as bees says, ya gotta believe in Ray!

"I don't want you losing any more sleep over me.""Believe me, if and when I ever find myself 'over' you, the last thing I'll be thinking about is sleeping."

Post by diane on Jun 13, 2011 23:15:50 GMT -5

Well........I'm gonna toss a quarter's worth in here.

I am sure it is no surprise to anyone that I believe that, although it is not the stuff that dreams are made of, season 5 is important in the history of Moonlighting. It is important to advance the story, and although much of it was not to our liking, the end result was supposed to be the reuniting of David and Maddie.

The cancellation interrupted those plans, and ended up giving the Annie arc a much more long lasting negativity than it would have had the whole thing played out.

Yes, even though the show was cancelled, I believe the creative team had an obligation to tell the story as well as humanly possible......and that is the crux of my issue with Lunar Eclipse. The first half hour or so, although not the relationship we want to see, is the story. What causes the main problem for me is when, after the scene at the jail, the creative team refuses to go for a resolution, instead abandons the story, and throws in the ridiculous farce. At that point we didn’t need to see funny, irreverent or innovative Moonlighting…we needed to see an ending….preferably happy, but at least a resolution, not an avoidance. It was a slap in the face to those who loved the show.

The end montage is pretty and touching, but it can’t make up for the ten minutes that came before it.

I’m not sure I am doing a great job explaining what I think about this, particularly if you have not watched the episodes. But evidently you have some preconceived notions about what did happen. If I could use Sandra’s analogy….I don’t think Lunar Eclipse is either steak or shoe leather. Parts of it are probably more like liver…..or peas! But into each life, a little liver must fall. Occasional peas and liver is what makes the whipped cream that much sweeter.

There are things you are going to miss if you take Lunar Eclipse out of your life forever. I think one of my favorite of Bruce’s scenes in season 5 is in this episode. The meeting with Annie’s husband is extremely well done, and we get to see David coming back to being the David we know and love. His realization of what he is doing to two people and a marriage is so evident, and lets us know that the David we know is not really gone….just hiding and hurt.

There is also the wonderful Agnes scene in the lingerie store… some prime Bert moments…..and the montage that leaves me breathless each time I watch it.

I certainly respect everyone’s opinions, and would never presume to judge anyone’s love of Moonlighting. To me it’s not a contest…..or even a choice. Moonlighting is just a part of me……and I almost consider it my duty to get the most out of it, and to help others to share that enjoyment and appreciation. Hope you don’t think it is too presumptious of me to try.

Post by snappysara on Jun 14, 2011 1:57:57 GMT -5

I think as far as an analysis of Lunar Eclipse goes - you are absolutely right Diane. Not presumptious at all. Positivity is very important. Things happen for a reason - and we know what those reasons were. Moonlighting is part of me too but I would've got more out of it if the the writers hadn't messed up. That includes parts of Season 4 too. However - I will watch Lunar Eclipse again today with a positive frame of mind . Which part is Bruce's father??? Snap x

Post by witness on Jun 14, 2011 3:05:42 GMT -5

I think it's important to consider the perspective of someone who did not see S5 the first time it aired but has been inundated with a great deal of negativity surrounding it after the fact. The majority of us have already watched it and have a flurry of emotions surrounding that experience. But we didn't know what to expect. Would we be so inclined to sit down and watch S5 for the first time, with these descriptions of pain, anguish, and disappointment swirling around in our noggins? Just a thought.

Post by sandra on Jun 14, 2011 3:31:47 GMT -5

Maybe, witness, could be that all the negative notions scared the pants off me. Thanks for throwing in this new point of view.

Thanks Diane, too for your words - I think I can say for me you explained your point of view very well, and I don't consider it in the least presumptuous, as you said that everybody has to find out for him-/herself how to deal with it. As I said, I never doubted there are some good moments even in season 5, maybe even in LE. Many others here have suggested that I sould indeed watch season 5, so you're certainly in a majority here.

What I liked most about your post is that you said that this is certainly not a contest, and I certainly haven't perceived it as one. Would I have thought that anyone had doubted my devotion to ML or judged my attitude towards it, my replies would surely have been written in a different tone.

I would never be so presumptuous myself to say that I understand everything about the show or its characters; I'm not even sure if everybody related to creating this show and bringing it to life has understood the characters to 100 %; I like to see them as personalities of their own (maybe weird - they are only tv characters of course, but this attitude is probably due to the way I perceive them during my own writing; there are always moments when they surprise me). So, I surely don't understand them better as anybody else.

But I really don't think that I'm not able to understand them as well as everybody else around here, just because I haven't actually seen season 5.

Because everybody whom I have talked to about season 5 and the development of characters - and I have talked to a lot of people about it, especially during the research for Nancy's and my latest piece, especially because I wanted to see if there was something I should know about them - confirmed me that there was nothing wrong about how I see the characters even not having watched season 5.

So, I think it's okay to hide under my bed from season 5; which doesn't mean that I won't change my mind one day.

Post by 1987 on Jun 14, 2011 6:44:56 GMT -5

I find myself never running out of things to say about Lunar Eclipse. It's always an inner battle with me: accept the show as a whole vs. stopping at Perfetc. I still don't know which side of the fence I am on. When new people I meet on Twitter or in real life are watching the show the first time around I want to stop them and old them back from proceeding on to WGC.

I will say that watching the season 5 shows the first time they aired, I loved them. I saw nothing wrong with them - (except the writers ignoring the baby death). That is, until WGC. That last month was agonizing and hurtful. But there are some great episodes in season 5. It's absolutely correct that all of season 5 has a negative cloud over it because of those last episodes. It certainly seems that the writers were trying to move Maddie & David back together in the end so I can very sporadically and with one eye closed view those last few episodes on rare occassion.

I agree with Diane 100% about those last few minutes. I held out faith that after the jail scene they would, in 10 minutes wrap things up nicely. The Sy scene and the church scene were so UN-Moonlighting and very disrespectful to everyone tuning in. The good thing though is it seems only the 'essed fans like us even remember the ending. Most everyone I meet along the way says "how DID that show end anyway?"..."I don't even remember the last episode.". Sad because it could have been very memorable.

Post by diane on Jun 14, 2011 7:22:06 GMT -5

Just a few more things that are dropping out of my head this very early morning, and then I am going to stop beating a dead finale.

Witness, I've got to say that yes, knowing all I know, I think I would have to watch season 5. But that's just because I am a completionist....once I devote myself to something, I have to see it through to the end...no matter what the end might be. ( Anyone who doubts that is welcome to come take a tour of my DVD collection....which fills an 8 by 12 section of wall in my living room). But it's not good....it's not bad...it's just me.

As far as presuming.....I would never presume to know everything about these characters, especially since, in my eyes, they continue to grow every day...everytime someone new watches a show or pens a piece of fanfiction. I learn new things every day, both by rewatching, and by the wonderful insights of others. There are no experts here, just people sharing bits of their knowledge and themselves....all for the love of this remarkable show. And unless I am mistaken, we all are eager to learn the little ins and outs, and wonderful little known facts that we have all acquired through the years. Correct me if I am wrong.

Enjoy your point of view about season 5 too, 1987. For the life of me, I can't remember hating ML either, just being frustrated with it....until WGC, which to me is the most hateful episode.

Now, in the spirit of full disclosure (no, I did not tweet bad anythings to anybody ), I have to admit I made a mistake. While I was watching Lunar the other day, I thought the man holding the newspaper outside the lingerie store was Bruce's Dad. When I look at it again, I am not so sure. I DO know that in Blonde on Blonde, his dad IS the gentleman in the police station, to the left of the door, the last person David passes as he storms out to get the itch scratched! (He is also Murray, the tow truck driver in Die hard 2). Take a gander and let me know what you think.

Post by sandra on Jun 14, 2011 7:40:47 GMT -5

Oh dear, can it be I expressed myself that wrong? I apologize, of course.

No, Diane, sorry if it came out that way -- of course I never meantyou presumed knowing everything, but I believe I didn't say this either.

I said I never presumed knowing everything - but at the same time I wouldn't like to be told I understood less than others only because I haven't watched season 5.

Of course it's great to learn something new every day, and I think I have said it many, many times during our various projects and on the episode discussion threads that the exchange with all the guys here widens my range of perception a lot. And that is maybe the greatest thing about these board.

Post by bluemoonshampoo on Jun 14, 2011 9:42:26 GMT -5

Of course, I have to put my size 5's in and contribute something - Don't I? Don't I?

Well first of all - I'm with Gray on my favourite tv final finale: 'Sopranos!'That was absolutely inspired :-) I Love how you don't know what's going to happen next through clever placing of cinematic red-herrings and those tension building screen devices and then it's simply left to the individual. Even if Tony Soprano wasn't killed then - he inevitably will be in the near future (due to the nature of his business)...such an amazing series (and Bruce Willis was a big fan too!). It ended in the true style of... (see what I did there?)

Sadly, I cannot get this excited about LE! I am one of those fans who stops at Perfetc (although I think there are lots of scenes to enjoy in Season 5- what's not to love about the chase scene to the Tango in 'PFL'?) This is because of the very reason outlined above: it didn't end in true essence of the show. The self-reflexive part would have worked in any other episode, like at the end of 'Camille'- in fact we would probably be using it as a favourite quirky scene (hey another good idea for project!)- but it just felt a bit empty and full of pathos at the end of LE.

With my whole heart, I think that they could have turned it around in the time they had too (...and I'm talking the last 5 minutes here!). In that church when the priest won't marry them? They could have changed their tone, brought in some clever ML lighting effects (let's have some more of that orange and blue, light and dark) - apologised for all the hurt they had caused each other and expressed how much they really loved each other! David could have proposed properly and Maddie could have said 'yes' like she really meant it :-(. It would have been lovely to see them confess that they had been hurting each other because they were just too scared to admit their true feelings - which were overwhelming *tear in eye*.

Despite all of my feelings - I have watched LE a couple of times and believe that the Ray Charles song is an even bigger metaphor than just David and Maddie's (Rita and Zac, Kate and Petruchio etc.) future togetherness. I think the message sparkled with that old time-resistant love that lasts, against all the odds, despite being trampled into the dust- that kind of love can be found in old movies, other ages... If you look at it that way...it does indeed give you a little hope :-)

However - I do highly recommend you immediately read mine and Sandra's re-write of these last four episodes if you want some closure and do not wish to be left (as Diane put it) in that church for 22 years! Ha ha.

Love you all Blue Mooners! x

Note to self: that was shameless self promotion BMS- must slap own hand

Post by jpen on Jun 14, 2011 10:10:05 GMT -5

Despite all of my feelings - I have watched LE a couple of times and believe that the Ray Charles song is an even bigger metaphor than just David and Maddie's (Rita and Zac, Kate and Petruchio etc.) future togetherness. I think the message sparkled with that old time-resistant love that lasts, against all the odds, despite being trampled into the dust- that kind of love can be found in old movies, other ages... If you look at it that way...it does indeed give you a little hope.

Well-put, BMS! David and Maddie are a couple for the ages...as the writers themselves suggest in the many parodies and references to classic love stories throughout the show.

Which is why the farce at the end of LE is so devastating to us--Maddie and David deserved better than to have their very real feelings and issues denigrated to a punchline. On the bright side, however, it's also the reason we're still here, talking and writing and laughing and crying about these two!! ;D

"I don't want you losing any more sleep over me.""Believe me, if and when I ever find myself 'over' you, the last thing I'll be thinking about is sleeping."

Post by bluemoonshampoo on Jan 20, 2012 13:59:42 GMT -5

Okay call me crazy - but I re-watched this episode today in the hope that if I watched it as a one-off I might be able to spot some more glimmers of hope. Well...I caught some glimmers of something that's for sure!

There were a few observations that I made with fresh eyes but I was still left feeling like I'd been kicked in the guts :-(

First obs from coming to this like a diver off a board into shark-infested water was this: the opening scene actually made my stomach turn more than when I've watched it in sequence (so that wasn't good) but take a look at my new angles:

- Agnes is so on the money honey when she says to Maddie about being utterly head-over-heels in love but still been attracted to other guys. Is this her hidden message that David's still head-over-heels in love with Maddie and that Annie is just an attractive distraction from the real deal because he feels Maddie's lost to him?

-Bert does a similar thing with David: he reminds our D that marriage is this huge deal. D's weird reaction to this observation of Bert's is to tell him to fool around but this is just David revealing that he believes his own actions to be distasteful at this moment. He's ashamed of his own behaviour- he really wants the marriage deal with the woman he loves: Maddie

-interesting that David meets Mark at high-noon- it reminds me of the 'Last Chance Saloon' (interestingly features in Partners In Crime re-write of this situation: fanfic) - this is David's last chance to redeem himself...

-Maddie shows how ridiculous the pal thing is when she hugs Agnes and calls her one - David was never a pal

-David repeatedly hurts everyone around him e.g Maddie (heart), Annie (heart), Mark (heart), Bert (compromises friendship, making him take Annie to Disney World on a day that should be his special day), McGillicuddy (knocks him over to floor with his new diagnosed heart condition) - everything is uncomfortable, not right whilst he's with Annie but as soon as he's out of this wrongful relationship, his character starts to act like the old David again- even making jokes! (emphasising how not-him his behaviour has been and how destructive to so many others it has been)

-notice at Agnes and Bert's wedding that the vows include the line 'two rays coming together'- or something like that. Well, clearly that should have been D and M - moon ray and sun ray coming together...

-finally in last scene when Maddie says if they could do the last 5 years again maybe they could... have ended up together being the couple who married in this ep? Her smile is genuine and I do believe that, at that point, they both wish that they had done things differently.