I write this so that people will understand that the “Geovario Sweepstakes” are run in a fully legal and ethical fashion. I also write to apologize for any confusion, and to offer a full refund to those who want it.

BACKGROUND

As you know, Calguns.net is a huge online community with almost 30,000 members. Last month the data-transfer alone for this site was well over 1.5 terabytes.

Calguns.net is so important to the RKBA, that I took it upon myself years ago to front the entire cost of hosting it. I do not own Calguns.net (Kestryll does.)

Calguns.net is a large and intensive hosted application with unique security requirements that can’t be hosted on a regular server, and thus as of this writing requires an array of 6 large servers, 2 loadbalancers, 6 switches, and 2 firewalls on a tier 1 network. To this end, I have personally spent over $45,000 to procure a server and other hardware for Calguns.net. Furthermore, the equipment count is constantly increasing – I have 4 more servers in the pipeline at present.

This amount does not include bandwidth, which at this level of data-transfer, is not cheap.

In short, Calguns.net requires a lot of money to operate. To be exact, it requires over $1000 per month, for the bandwidth alone. Once you factor in equipment upgrades, and the organic exponential growth of Calguns.net, the number rises substantially.

In order to partially offset these large ongoing expenses, I have donated several of my very own firearms. These have been given away in sweepstakes.

ALL of these sweepstakes have been performed in a legal and ethical manner. Winners were chosen at random. So far, my company has raised about $12,000 through these sweepstakes. This money has been used to partially offset my own investment in Calguns.net’s infrastructure.

Not a single penny has gone to me. It has all gone to keep this site up and running. I make no money from these sweepstakes.

I wish to also address the “Calguns.net vs. the Calguns Foundation” issue.

The Calguns Foundation has had nothing to do with these legal sweepstakes. They are not promoted by the CGF, and the CGF gets no money from the proceeds. As I mentioned above, 100 percent of the proceeds go to keep this site alive.

Did I make some mistakes? Yes I did.

Two of the sweepstakes were not held with “public” drawings. I simply did not think that this would be an issue. It now appears that some people feel that this is a problem, and in the future, ALL drawings will be held publically – and will be performed by an independent third party.

In addition, though I met the lawful requirements, I could have been more forthcoming that a donation IS NOT REQUIRED TO ENTER. In the future, I will make this even more clear.

SUMMARY

1) Calguns costs a lot of money to operate.
2) I did the sweepstake to help cover part of this cost.
3) All sweepstakes have been conducted in a legal, fair and impartial manner.
4) The Calguns Foundation is not part of these sweepstakes.
5) The sweepstakes should have featured exclusively public drawings, and I will do this in the future.
6) A purchase is NOT required (although donations are welcome), and I will make this more clear moving forward.

MOVING FORWARD

Since I have made some mistakes, I am offering a FULL REFUND OF ANY DONATIONS to anyone who wishes, and who can provide me with a PayPal receipt. Please allow 2-4 weeks for processing, these may have to come via paper check. (awaiting legal opinion.)

I also wish to apologize for any confusion that I may have caused, and I endeavor to go forward with a more transparent process.

Sincerely,

Ben Cannon
Ben@GeoVario.com
http://www.geovario.com/
1.800.208.5510

EDITING TO ADD:

Some good things have come out of this.

Oddly enough, I have made several good friendships out of acquaintances who heard about this, then called me to discuss. The truth will set you free.

Also, I have become somewhat of an expert in both state and federal Sweepstakes law (they differ...)

Every time someone tries to assinate my character, not only do they fail, but they make me stronger. Local PD tried it. A wealthy lawyer from DC tried it. Alison tried it. Iggy tried it. Stator tried it. BWO and Zach have now tried it.

I welcome the next comers - it's part of the job. What I am going to launch in the next 3 months is going to paint yet another bullseye on my head. I look forward to meeting those challenges.

eaglemike

06-02-2009, 11:57 PM

Ben,
Thanks for your magnificent work. The RKBA here in California is extremely important, not just here, but for the entirety of the United States. I think you can easliy see how much I've thrown into the kitty. It's money well spent, at least in my (alleged) mind. Keep up the good work! I've never doubted you! I hope you will someday find the time to document the OLL movement from your viewpoint, from the beginning, in detail. I've enjoyed the bits I've been able to find.

all the best,
Mike

383green

06-03-2009, 12:00 AM

Thanks for opening up a new topic to discuss this. I think this is necessary and welcome.

It appears that I misunderstood how the drawings would be conducted at the times that I made my donations. Maybe I would have donated differently if I had known that then, but at this time I see no personal need to request a refund. I consider CGN to be a valuable resource, and find it to be in my personal interest to support it. I think that offering refunds to those who want them is the Right Thing to do under the circumstances, despite having no plan at this time request one.

I will be requesting a full refund and will be emailing you a copy of my paypal receipt, even though those should be easy enough for you to gather.

Further more any monetary contributions I make to Calguns.net or thr Calguns foundation will go directly through Kes.

Your intentions are good, but it does make me wonder how much more of BWO's vocalized thoughts are correct.

Though thank you for your time and effort put into these serious undertakings to forward the California gun owners' cause.

Bobula

06-03-2009, 2:49 AM

In retrospect I withdraw my request of a refund. After reading how the paypal account got flagged I don't think my meager donation is worth risking my account getting flagged.
I'm not saying there is anything illegal about the sweepstakes just that paypal has an issue with it.

Though once again, thanks for the hard work and personal assests you've expended for us and this site.

Man I dont want my money back, that is like asking for a refund of a lottery ticket cause you didnt win. I did think the money went to CGF, but I didnt buy the ticket for that, I bought the ticket for a chance to win a kick @$$ gun...

Quake0

06-03-2009, 10:31 AM

Calpop gives 15MBPS for free which comes out to 4.95 terabytes of transfer a month if spread out. 100MBPS is a flat rate of $1000. Are you saying you reached a 100MBPS? That is a hell of a lot of bandwidth!

artherd

06-03-2009, 11:48 AM

Calpop gives 15MBPS for free which comes out to 4.95 terabytes of transfer a month if spread out. 100MBPS is a flat rate of $1000. Are you saying you reached a 100MBPS? That is a hell of a lot of bandwidth!

If you like I'll show you the bills. Total costs to keep CGN up monthly are higher of course. And that's all wholesale.

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 12:01 PM

Calpop gives 15MBPS for free which comes out to 4.95 terabytes of transfer a month if spread out. 100MBPS is a flat rate of $1000. Are you saying you reached a 100MBPS? That is a hell of a lot of bandwidth!

Our monthly transfer actually is measured in Terabytes, not to mention that our MySQL Database is nearly 2Gb compressed for backup.
That's a lot of DB info to go through on each click so it's not just a Celeron sitting in the back of the office! ;)

We do work the servers pretty hard.
The entire site and DB is backed up every night and stored.

As of April:
Total hits for the month was nearly 150 million.
Our average daily hits is about 5,000,000, yes five million with a max of nearly six million.
Our average Files per day is 2.8 million with a max of almost 3.3 million.

And we add new members and grow each day.

A lot of hosts offer massive bandwidth but there is a catch.
They have limits on resources such as DB size, memory allocation, CPU cycles and more.
Calpop for instance has a limit of 500Gb of storage even on there top of the line plans.

Geovario gives us 2.7 Terabytes of space, we're using over 900Gbs right now, unlimited clock cycles, unlimited DB size, I can't remember if it's 16 or 32 Gb of RAM and I can call the owner on his cell phone 24/7. ;)

We have a pretty good deal and there is always a drive to have the hardware be ahead of the next surge in members or events.

bwiese

06-03-2009, 12:11 PM

Kes,

Those are impressive numbers.

What this means is that CGN reaches out to a helluva lot more folks than just "members". I suspect we have 'frequent viewers who are not joiners".

What this means is that CGN reaches out to a helluva lot more folks than just "members". I suspect we have 'frequent viewers who are not joiners".

Exactly!

One thing I always try to keep in mind is that it's not just 'us' that's seeing our public communication.
Someone else might be reading and not saying anything but still formulating an opinion and stance.

Regulus

06-03-2009, 12:17 PM

artherd,

Thank you for your clarification and your offer for refunds. I'm sure this was a valuable learning experience for you and others.

All in all, I participated in the latest sweepstakes with little thought that I would win as I just don't have that kind of luck. The main point of purchasing the tickets was to help this site, which provides most of my entertainment and valuable knowledge that all California gun enthusiasts should have.

If I won, great! If not... oh well. The same thought BWO shared likely crossed many of our minds, but to me it was money well spent regardless.

The changes you just proposed will be welcomed and hopefully will go a long way with the members here in continuing to participate in future sweepstakes.

Thanks for what you do.

Matt C

06-03-2009, 12:28 PM

Our monthly transfer actually is measured in Terabytes, not to mention that our MySQL Database is nearly 2Gb compressed for backup.

No, it's measured in MBPS, because that is how your bandwidth provider measures it. If someone told you something else they are/were lying.

We do work the servers pretty hard.
The entire site and DB is backed up every night and stored.
As of April:
Total hits for the month was nearly 150 million.
Our average daily hits is about 5,000,000, yes five million with a max of nearly six million.
Our average Files per day is 2.8 million with a max of almost 3.3 million.

And we add new members and grow each day.

A lot of hosts offer massive bandwidth but there is a catch.
They have limits on resources such as DB size, memory allocation, CPU cycles and more.
That sounds like you are talking about virtual servers.

Calpop for instance has a limit of 500Gb of storage even on there top of the line plans.That is just plain WRONG. Try click on the "add ons" tab on the website, and then click ADD DRIVES.

Geovario gives us 2.7 Terabytes of space, we're using over 900Gbs right now, unlimited clock cycles, unlimited DB size, I can't remember if it's 16 or 32 Gb of RAM and I can call the owner on his cell phone 24/7. ;)
Again, it sounds like you are talking about virtual servers. All dedicated servers have unlimited clock cycles, DB size ect. Virtual servers suck. A GB of ram costs about $20 these days. And the owner is 500 miles from his servers. Guess who HE calls when there is a physical problem?;)

We have a pretty good deal and there is always a drive to have the hardware be ahead of the next surge in members or events.
Yeah that used gear off ebay is really cutting edge.

Did you get my PM? Seriously, you don't know what you are talking about. Calpop offers a maximum of 72TB of storage (36 2TB drives) and just built a similar DB server for it's customer FUJI FILM. It is a real, professional company with thousands of customers, one of the largest DC operations in LA. I can show it to you and give you a tour of the DC if you like. If Ben gives permission I'll post the Geovario MRTG graphs and we can all look at exactly how much bandwidth CGN, THR.US, and every other customer he has combined use. It's minimal, because forum sites are mostly text.

bsim

06-03-2009, 12:34 PM

I thought it was PERFECTLY clear that these 'donations' went to hardware and bandwidth, and not to the foundation.

I guess that's what I get for reading.

JGarrison

06-03-2009, 12:35 PM

Ben, I am actually ashamed of those that would call you liar and a scam artist. I am sorry you have to go through this:(

artherd

06-03-2009, 12:40 PM

unlimited clock cycles, unlimited DB size, I can't remember if it's 16 or 32 Gb of RAM and I can call the owner on his cell phone 24/7. ;)

You're actually in a cluster of 6 (soon 10) machines. EACH has a minimum of 16GB ram. That's about 96GB aggregate. With hardware loadbalancers splitting the duty.

Matt - we host (and provide security for) amongst others the US ARMY. Your old boss. As I recall you're in sales, not tech.

Do you want to air the personal reasons you're upset with me and are making these repeated baseless attacks? Or would you like to just leave it at that and go back to work.

oaklander

06-03-2009, 12:41 PM

Ben, I wish to thank you for hosting Calguns. I know that you don't make any money on it, and it is certainly your right to seek to recoup some of the costs.

Are their better deals out there? Probably. Is hosting with a PRO 2A company (like Geovario) worth something? CERTAINLY.

Again kudos to you for the work you have done for this site and for 2A rights.

Matt C

06-03-2009, 12:43 PM

Do you want to air the personal reasons you're upset with me and are making these repeated baseless attacks? Or would you like to just leave it at that and go back to work.

This isn't personal, and it's my day off. BTW, where is my refund? I'm waiting.

Also, do I have permission to post your bandwidth graphs?

artherd

06-03-2009, 12:44 PM

If Ben gives permission I'll post the Geovario MRTG graphs

Yeah that would be confidential information protected under NDA. So "NO."

Matt - you don't know what you are talking about. Our space with your boss's other datacenter does not even comprise the entirety of CGN, let alone GV. My patience with you is finished, however I will answer other questions in this thread as I'm able.

Quake0

06-03-2009, 12:45 PM

If you like I'll show you the bills. Total costs to keep CGN up monthly are higher of course. And that's all wholesale.

Please due show. I am very interested to see.

artherd

06-03-2009, 12:47 PM

Please due show. I am very interested to see.

Not going to disclose confidential information publicly (I have a duty to my board, I can't just do that - just like you can't ask Pepsi what it cost to produce it's syrup last year.) call me and execute an NDA and I will show you.

Matt C

06-03-2009, 12:48 PM

Yeah that would be confidential information protected under NDA. So "NO." Thought not.

Matt - you don't know what you are talking about. Our space with your boss's other datacenter does not even comprise the entirety of CGN, let alone GV.
Really? That's funny because DNS records tell a different story.

Supposedly you already disclosed it? $1000 a month in bandwidth right? OR did you just make that up?

artherd

06-03-2009, 12:48 PM

I thought it was PERFECTLY clear that these 'donations' went to hardware and bandwidth, and not to the foundation.

I guess that's what I get for reading.

Yes, this was all laid out in the original post. I think 99.9% got it. There's always that 0.1% though that you just cannot make happy.

jacques

06-03-2009, 12:50 PM

Whoa,

Did this get out of hand or what?

Ben, I will have to agree with J. Garrison there. I am truely ashamed and perplexed at the random behaviour of some of the members here. Not in a microsecond did I give any thought to this being any sort of scam in anyway.

You know, I know, and many, many people here know what kind of person you are. And you are definately a stand up guy.

Thanks for putting the raffle on and doing this for calguns so we can all enjoy this fantastic site. Your heart is in it, and that is what counts. Do not let the naysayer whiners (sore losers) get you down.

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 12:54 PM

Yeah that used gear off ebay is really cutting edge.

Did you get my PM? Seriously, you don't know what you are talking about.
Actually, Yes, I did get you PM, the one where you as a Contract Sales Person working for the Data Center that Geovario contracts with claimed to have 'frequently worked on our servers'.
In what exact capacity?

Calpop offers a maximum of 72TB of storage (36 2TB drives) and just built a similar DB server for it's customer FUJI FILM. It is a real, professional company with thousands of customers, one of the largest DC operations in LA. I can show it to you and give you a tour of the DC if you like. If Ben gives permission I'll post the Geovario MRTG graphs and we can all look at exactly how much bandwidth CGN, THR.US, and every other customer he has combined use. It's minimal, because forum sites are mostly text.

So you are using your access to private info about a client at work to further your private arguments on a public forum?
I wonder how that will play out with the employer?

Quake0

06-03-2009, 1:00 PM

I thought it was PERFECTLY clear that these 'donations' went to hardware and bandwidth, and not to the foundation.

I guess that's what I get for reading.
Bandwidth?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!? !?!!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?

Matt C

06-03-2009, 1:03 PM

So you are using your access to private info about a client at work to further your private arguments on a public forum?
I wonder how that will play out with the employer?

What "private info" exactly? The only thing not publicly available would be the MRTG graphs which I won't post because Ben does not want me to, and the fact that he buys all his gear off ebay which he told me in a private capacity while he was at my apartment. There is no NDA either. I'm already sure Ben will try to call Calpop and get me fired because that is the kind of person he is. It's won't stop me from saying what I have to say.

In what exact capacity?
In the capacity (on one occasion) of driving into work at 2 something AM to try and get a Linux install completed so we could get CGN up. Several times to put RAM in, and more than once to do reboots.

This was not in my capacity as Sales Manager, but as Ben's friend and as a fan of CGN. That's why he did not get charged $75 an hour for it either (well reboots would have been free anyway).

artherd

06-03-2009, 1:05 PM

Supposedly you already disclosed it? $1000 a month in bandwidth right? OR did you just make that up?

You're in a position to know what our bill with your boss is. Look it up.

Matt C

06-03-2009, 1:09 PM

You're in a position to know what our bill with your boss is. Look it up.

Are you giving me permission to post it?

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 1:11 PM

Are you giving me permission to post it?

I don't care whether Ben is, I'm not.

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 1:12 PM

BTW, where is my refund? I'm waiting.

Tell you what, PM me an address and I'll send you a check out today.

Then leave my forum. You're doing nothing more then pursuing a personal vendetta with Ben and I'm done with it.

I can not tell you how much I regret letting you use this forum and use the members to bail yourself out of trouble on their backs.

I'm tired of your antics, ego, attitude and arrogance.

There's the door, use it under your own power or mine.

ETA:

Before you complain, no I did NOT 'talk to Ben' or anyone about this.
There is no grand conspiracy.
No one asked me to say this.
No one other then I even knew I was posting this.

I am just flat out tired of your games and have decided I'm not going to waste any more of my time cleaning up after you.

Quake0

06-03-2009, 1:12 PM

Not going to disclose confidential information publicly (I have a duty to my board, I can't just do that - just like you can't ask Pepsi what it cost to produce it's syrup last year.) call me and execute an NDA and I will show you.

If we execute an NDA then the truth would stop with us. I would like every one to know how much integrity you truly have....

Matt C

06-03-2009, 1:18 PM

Tell you what, PM me an address and I'll send you a check out today.

Then leave my forum. You're doing nothing more then pursuing a personal vendetta with Ben and I'm done with it.

I can not tell you how much I regret letting you use this forum and use the members to bail yourself out of trouble on their backs.

I'm tired of your antics, ego, attitude and arrogance.

There's the door, use it under your own power or mine.

I don't want to leave unless you are kicking me out. This is not personal, regardless of what Ben says. I feel like something dishonest is going on and therefore I felt compelled to speak out about it. I can live with the consequences, but my intentions are entirely on the up and up. Hopefully that will be borne out, but if not, then so be it.

I certainly feel ripped off, and so I want my money back. Not from you, but from Ben, who offered it.

artherd

06-03-2009, 1:18 PM

Matt - I know that when we were moving gear in you helped me a great deal and I am thankful for that.

You have turned hostile recently, and that is your choice.

Several times to put RAM in, and more than once to do reboots.

We have remote APC power management in the LA datacenter.

artherd

06-03-2009, 1:19 PM

If we execute an NDA then the truth would stop with us. I would like every one to know how much integrity you truly have....

Fine, give me a day to get approval to release the information.

EDIT: sorry, not approved. We know who you are now, and you know as well as I do that you can simply look the number up, and that it is correct.

Futurecollector

06-03-2009, 1:20 PM

I don't want to leave unless you are kicking me out. This is not personal, regardless of what Ben says. I feel like something dishonest is going on and therefore I felt compelled to speak out about it. I can live with the consequences, but my intentions are entirely on the up and up. Hopefully that will be borne out, but if not, then so be it.

I certainly feel ripped off, and so I want my money back. Not from you, but from Ben, who offered it.

Just for those of us reading on the outside, why are you feeling "Ripped off" and that "something dishonest is going on"????

artherd

06-03-2009, 1:20 PM

Are you giving me permission to post it?

No.

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 1:22 PM

If we execute an NDA then the truth would stop with us. I would like every one to know how much integrity you truly have....

Speaking of integrity....

If you want info just ask Matt.

Given the IP addresses in common and other such things I suspect you wouldn't have to travel far to do so nor are you just an 'interested party'.....

steadyrock

06-03-2009, 1:23 PM

Ben,
Thanks for your magnificent work. The RKBA here in California is extremely important, not just here, but for the entirety of the United States. I think you can easliy see how much I've thrown into the kitty. It's money well spent, at least in my (alleged) mind. Keep up the good work! I've never doubted you! I hope you will someday find the time to document the OLL movement from your viewpoint, from the beginning, in detail. I've enjoyed the bits I've been able to find.

all the best,
Mike

It would make a fascinating book, if the parties involved could put aside their pissing match long enough to agree to terms of publication and a royalty agreement. I could see tens of thousands of dollars (or more) being raised to support either CGN or CGF. Just saying. :)

On-Topic: I didn't participate in the raffles and have no dog in this particular fight, but whether it's $10/mo or $1000/mo or $10,000/mo, kudos to Ben and the others who have donated time and resources to keeping CGN alive. It's a generous effort and much appreciated.

Quake0

06-03-2009, 1:28 PM

Tell you what, PM me an address and I'll send you a check out today.

Then leave my forum. You're doing nothing more then pursuing a personal vendetta with Ben and I'm done with it.

I can not tell you how much I regret letting you use this forum and use the members to bail yourself out of trouble on their backs.

I'm tired of your antics, ego, attitude and arrogance.

There's the door, use it under your own power or mine.

Their comes a time when people have to put their personal morals to the test. Go ahead and test them. It will define you.

Quake0

06-03-2009, 1:31 PM

Speaking of integrity....

If you want info just ask Matt.

Given the IP addresses in common and other such things I suspect you wouldn't have to travel far to do so nor are you just an 'interested party'.....

By all means I don't need to speak with Matt to know the truth.

Futurecollector

06-03-2009, 1:33 PM

Their comes a time when people have to put their personal morals to the test. Go ahead and test them. It will define you.

By all means I don't need to speak with Matt to know the truth.

Do you have some sort of information to offer up toward the "truth" or are you just trolling? I'm kinda confused please clarify?

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 1:34 PM

I don't want to leave unless you are kicking me out.
Actually, Yeah, that is EXACTLY what I meant.
I feel you used this community and are continuing to do so and I'm tired of it.

This is not personal, regardless of what Ben says.
Reread what I posted, I said it, not Ben.

I feel like something dishonest is going on and therefore I felt compelled to speak out about it.
As stated before, provide evidence of your accusation, now.

Not little hints or 'I heard so-and-so say X', no 'So-and-so says he has chat logs that prove it all!'

Show proof of your accusations right now.

This is not a request.

I would make this demand of ANY member who chose to make public accustaions of another member and have done so in the past.

I can live with the consequences, but my intentions are entirely on the up and up. Hopefully that will be borne out, but if not, then so be it.
Playing the martyr rarely ends well for the one trying to martyr himself.

I certainly feel ripped off, and so I want my money back. Not from you, but from Ben, who offered it.
I know what you want.

Ben's sweepstakes were to directly benefit this forum and by extension me.
I have no problem paying you what you think you are owed.

artherd

06-03-2009, 1:36 PM

Tell you what, PM me an address and I'll send you a check out today.

I'll take care of BWO's refund. Once I confirm the donation to begin with.

hoffmang

06-03-2009, 1:36 PM

By all means I don't need to speak with Matt to know the truth.

Who are you?

-Gene

xrMike

06-03-2009, 1:37 PM

I'll be happy to get my money back. Let me know if you need my email.Will you be offering similar refunds to the folks here who donated thousands of $$$ to your "bailout" fund?

Let me know if you need my email.

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 1:38 PM

Their comes a time when people have to put their personal morals to the test. Go ahead and test them. It will define you.

My morals have been tested, defined and made public for several years now.
I do not need my character, morals or integrity validated by others, I know who I am and am fine with it.
For all my flaws I honestly have to say I think I do a pretty good job with Calguns.

This is far from some 'defining moment' or 'grand conclusion'.

It is merely just another in a long line of time consuming and effort wasting dramas that have become played out and bothersome.

kermit315

06-03-2009, 1:38 PM

Ben, for what its worth, I am behind you. I knew the raffles were going towards equipment/bandwidth. I never thought the money was going to CGF, and am not sure how others came to that conclusion.

artherd

06-03-2009, 1:38 PM

By all means I don't need to speak with Matt to know the truth.

Jason that you? (Matt's best friend, and when I met him, a pretty nice guy.)

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 1:39 PM

By all means I don't need to speak with Matt to know the truth.

Ahh... so you already have your preconceived notions of 'truth' decided.

That says a lot, probably more then you intended....

DDT

06-03-2009, 1:40 PM

Why all the secrecy regarding the bandwidth graphs of CGN?

I'm sure that finding out what happened to cause the bad blood between Matt and Ben would be interesting on a prurient level but is really not particularly interesting fodder for a public forum and surely hanging our dirty laundry out in public is not going to end well for any involved.

artherd

06-03-2009, 1:44 PM

About half the hardware that hosts CGN. Pic taken during physical install November 2008. Orange stuff is fiber.

It is merely just another in a long line of time consuming and effort wasting dramas that have become played out and bothersome.

:rofl2: NS

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 1:45 PM

Jason that you? (Matt's best friend, and when I met him, a pretty nice guy.)

Good guess....

Speaking of personal morals and integrity...

Everyone knows who I am in this discussion even with a screen name...

artherd

06-03-2009, 1:45 PM

Why all the secrecy regarding the bandwidth graphs of CGN?
Not my place or decision. We don't release confidential information about our clients or business practices. I am not the sole owner of GeoVario - I have business partners I must answer to. Working on getting clearances, but until then the answer is the same one DOJ would receive... NO!!!

artherd

06-03-2009, 1:48 PM

Matt, I am still waiting on a PM with the email you used. You can keep the $1,000 I donated to your legal defense as soon as I heard about it a long time ago, and the couple thousand dollars my first drawing raised for your legal defense.

DDT

06-03-2009, 1:48 PM

Not my place or decision. We don't release confidential information about our clients or business practices. I am not the sole owner of GeoVario - I have business partners I must answer to. Working on getting clearances, but until then the answer is the same one DOJ would receive... NO!!!

I never assumed that you would have the right to release such information. I can't imagine that your business partners would either. As far as I am concerned that is Kestryll's business and his alone.

Futurecollector

06-03-2009, 1:51 PM

I never assumed that you would have the right to release such information. I can't imagine that your business partners would either. As far as I am concerned that is Kestryll's business and his alone.

I AGREE, I mean this is Kestryll's personal site, why shold we even try and force him/Ben to post graphs of everything, I only know of one member that wants to see any of that, I sure could care less,

Can I make a 25 dollar donation to help cover Matt's refund? If so just pm me a place to send a check and I will send it out today....

N6ATF

06-03-2009, 1:52 PM

As one, let me just say this:

http://www.destructoid.com/elephant//ul/29577-Nerdfight.jpg

This one came in a close second:
http://granitegrok.com/pix/MilitaryNerd.JPG

jacques

06-03-2009, 1:53 PM

I AGREE, I mean this is Kestryll's personal site, why shold we even try and force him/Ben to post graphs of everything, I only know of one member that wants to see any of that, I sure could care less,

Can I make a 25 dollar donation to help cover Matt's refund? If so just pm me a place to send a check and I will send it out today....

Ditto. $25. Send me a PM.

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 1:54 PM

As one, let me just say this:

http://www.destructoid.com/elephant//ul/29577-Nerdfight.jpg

This one came in a close second:
http://granitegrok.com/pix/MilitaryNerd.JPG

Don't make me break out my +5 Vorpal Pocket Protector!!!

I think I just moved up to mega-nerd... :D

kermit315

06-03-2009, 1:55 PM

Don't make me break out my +5 Vorpal Pocket Protector!!!

I think I just moved up to mega-nerd... :D

I think you're right. LOL :chris:

Opus109

06-03-2009, 1:57 PM

Ben, for what its worth, I am behind you. I knew the raffles were going towards equipment/bandwidth. I never thought the money was going to CGF, and am not sure how others came to that conclusion.

:iagree:

Sorry this had to get personal. You guys are handling it appropriately.

Kestryll

06-03-2009, 2:03 PM

Tell you what, PM me an address and I'll send you a check out today.

Then leave my forum. You're doing nothing more then pursuing a personal vendetta with Ben and I'm done with it.

I can not tell you how much I regret letting you use this forum and use the members to bail yourself out of trouble on their backs.

I'm tired of your antics, ego, attitude and arrogance.

There's the door, use it under your own power or mine.

I hereby retract this, the 'leave now' aspect, not the 'I'll write you a check today part. Just to be clear.

While in honesty it does portray my personal feelings and opinions I have always tried to separate those feelings and opinions from my position here.

Barring being unable to back up your accusation, which is a direct issue of the forum and not a Matt/Ben issue, you have not taken action that merits banning.

My request that you leave was made from a personal standpoint based on personal annoyance and can not stand.

However I do still require that you give evidence of the accusations you have made towards another member promptly.

Failing to do so will have it's own consequence separate and distinct from my opinions and views.

artherd

06-03-2009, 2:03 PM

This one came in a close second:
http://granitegrok.com/pix/MilitaryNerd.JPG

If its what I think it is, I do to, except they arent in ball form anymore. :thumbsup:

artherd

06-03-2009, 2:21 PM

Half of it eh? Nice.

Out of curiosity, what DB are you using? This site runs alot better then some of the major news sites around here *cough* *cough* *SF gate* *cough*.

:)

It's actually still on MySQL believe it or not. It's much larger than 2GB at runtime, I believe that pair has 16GB mostly used all of the time. Much is likely cache. I have db gurus that know more than me :D

artherd

06-03-2009, 2:24 PM

Wow, I work on those little gray balls...

:)

Matt - I am in meetings and at a GV event starting now going all through this week. My availability to deal with anything Calguns related will be limited at best.

Still have no PM from you.

steadyrock

06-03-2009, 2:26 PM

Don't make me break out my +5 Vorpal Pocket Protector!!!

I think I just moved up to mega-nerd... :D

What do you mean, "just"? ;)

383green

06-03-2009, 2:28 PM

http://granitegrok.com/pix/MilitaryNerd.JPG

Hmm, depending on what he does with it, the guy with the laptop might be the most dangerous and deadly one in the group and the other guys might just be there to shield him from annoying distractions.

Futurecollector

06-03-2009, 2:33 PM

GUYS, I Have HAD IT, im calling the california lottery and sking for my money back for all the years I didnt win, just thought I would let you all know about that!!

artherd

06-03-2009, 2:38 PM

Hmm, depending on what he does with it, the guy with the laptop might be the most dangerous and deadly one in the group and the other guys might just be there to shield him from annoying distractions.

+2000(lbs) ;)

megavolt121

06-03-2009, 3:06 PM

What "private info" exactly? The only thing not publicly available would be the MRTG graphs which I won't post because

The fact that you would like to post something you got in confidence just to "prove a point" speaks a lot about your character. Boy am I glad I never donate to that overrated BWO Fund.

By the way, I hope you got your taxes squared away on that.

bwiese

06-03-2009, 3:08 PM

Folks,

I hate to see a buncha great guys get in a p**ing contest.

We're all gunners and we've all had some 'interesting times' (some more than others). Let's move forward.

GuyW

06-03-2009, 5:13 PM

Calguns.net

Thanks to you and Kestryll for providing the powerhouse that CalGuns has become.
.

Edge

06-03-2009, 5:41 PM

Look, I don't know anyone here personally, and I have no reason to doubt the integrity of Artherd, but I know that my first reaction when I read that the winner of the contest 1) Hadn't posted in 2 years, 2) Was a personal friend of the sponser of the raffle, and 3) That the drawing wasn't witnessed, was that something fishy was going on.

I think it's a very good idea that any and all drawings be done publicly. And if you do have the future drawings done by an independent third party you eliminate any reasonable doubt anyone might have as to the legitimacy of the event.

I am not interested in a refund because I entered the drawing with no expectation to win and wanting to make a donation to support a forum I have come to love.

I will participate in any future drawings to help support Calguns, but would appreciate it if the details of drawing were spelled out better.

383green

06-03-2009, 5:41 PM

I don't know either Matt or Ben well enough to make any judgements about either of their characters. I'm perfectly willing to view any available evidence and form my own opinions. Maybe either man or the other is a saint, and maybe either man or the other is the devil incarnate; I won't judge either of them one way or the other until and unless I see some evidence one way or the other.

I still have some unanswered questions and concerns regarding the donation/raffle/sweepstakes/lottery or whatever it was, and both Matt and Ben have shown willingness to talk to me about their sides of the story. I haven't completed said talkings yet because we all have day jobs that keep us occupied. I'll reserve any judgement until I have the facts at my disposal.

I can form and express one opinion right now, though: a public statement to the effect of "that guy is a bad man, and maybe I'll tell you why later" is neither compelling nor endearing, whether it's true or not. I will say this to anybody who would make such a statement: Put up or shut up. If you wish to make a public indictment of another man's character, show the evidence. If you don't want to show the evidence, then keep your trap shut. I've seen some really childish behavior from a number of people in this discussion so far.

I do hope that when all of the dust and urine fumes settle down, I'll still consider both Ben and Matt friends (well, friendly acquaintances at least) and people I can trust and respect. However, we're all big boys and girls here, we all are responsible for our own statements and actions, and I'll form my own opinions based on whatever evidence I see and then let the chips fall where they may.

Oooh, lots of thunder and lightning here right now. Power's down, but I'm on battery power and cellular modem.

dwtt

06-03-2009, 6:34 PM

July 4th is coming up, let's have another raffle and hold the drawing at the Shoot-n-Q. There will be lots of witnesses if we hold the raffle right before the food is ready to eat. I'll donate my Grendel P-10 and I'll bring my barbeque and charcoal again. How about it, we can raise $200 for Calguns.net :)

thefifthspeed

06-03-2009, 7:18 PM

Look, I don't know anyone here personally, and I have no reason to doubt the integrity of Artherd, but I know that my first reaction when I read that the winner of the contest 1) Hadn't posted in 2 years, 2) Was a personal friend of the sponser of the raffle, and 3) That the drawing wasn't witnessed, was that something fishy was going on.

All of the above plus the fact that the drawing was pushed back several weeks made the whole drawing into a big mess. I'm sure there were good intentions behind the whole drawing but in all honesty it may he hard for calgunners to donate for these types of drawings down the road after what all went down. I, like many others, am not intested in getting my money back. It still goes to a good cause (I hope).

thedrickel

06-03-2009, 7:33 PM

Haha . . . this is why I had Bill pull names for the S12 group buy at the Milpitas lowers/bewoe dinner . . . AND had Ivan keep his own list of the names!

wildog8812

06-03-2009, 7:40 PM

Thanks a lot for all that you do to keep this site running

Zebra

06-03-2009, 8:46 PM

Man, that looks a lot like early '06: the Milpitas Group Buy 'We-want-our-money-back-lets-beat-up-on-Ben' thing. Like then, Ben is sticking his neck out, trying to solve a situation, and someone here is eager to chop it off...

I know Ben a bit and I can say that you can call him a lot of things, but dishonest is definitely not one of them!

Ben, I'd contribute to offset the cost of the BWO bailout, but it seems your paypal account has 'issues.' Let me know what I can do to help!

Frank

djleisure

06-03-2009, 9:30 PM

Look, I don't know anyone here personally, and I have no reason to doubt the integrity of Artherd, but I know that my first reaction when I read that the winner of the contest 1) Hadn't posted in 2 years, 2) Was a personal friend of the sponser of the raffle, and 3) That the drawing wasn't witnessed, was that something fishy was going on.

I think it's a very good idea that any and all drawings be done publicly. And if you do have the future drawings done by an independent third party you eliminate any reasonable doubt anyone might have as to the legitimacy of the event.

I am not interested in a refund because I entered the drawing with no expectation to win and wanting to make a donation to support a forum I have come to love.

I will participate in any future drawings to help support Calguns, but would appreciate it if the details of drawing were spelled out better.

This. Exactly.

Scarecrow Repair

06-03-2009, 9:52 PM

I have almost no clue about what is going on; I gather Matt thinks one of Ben's raffles was rigged and wants his money back.

Knowing nothing of the details, from that alone I canna tell much.

However, considering how much it costs to run a site like calguns, and how much personal risk and effort Ben put into so many other things, I find it amazing that Matt, having got thousands of dollars in donations, including some small amount from me, has the nerve to want money back even if the raffle was rigged from the start. It strikes me as incredibly arrogant, conveniently forgetful, and a real slap in the face, not only to Ben and Kestryll, but to the entire calguns community which did one heck of a lot to rescue Matt's butt.

I don't know how Kestryll enters into this. I have my differences with him, but never over his integrity. No one who runs a monster site like this and puts up with all the abuse which goes with it could have anything less than a boat load of integrity.

This site is way too big to think that even if Ben and Kestryll were skimming the till, they didn't earn it. What till is there to skim? I canna believe that any raffle comes close to all the true costs of running calguns. If there were millions of dollars at stake, maybe this would be something worth worrying over, but there isn't.

I am not even curious about any proofs Matt has other than the rubbernecking tourist effect, but even if he could prove Kestryll and Ben had been stealing from the beginning, there isn't much to steal!

It just don't make no sense no how.

Put up or shut up seems to be the next step. There's also the matter of Matt refunding all the money that went into helping him, both direct and from raffles. Somehow I doubt that will happen.

dwtt

06-03-2009, 11:05 PM

Man, that looks a lot like early '06: the Milpitas Group Buy 'We-want-our-money-back-lets-beat-up-on-Ben' thing. Like then, Ben is sticking his neck out, trying to solve a situation, and someone here is eager to chop it off...

Hey, has anyone seen anything from Stator recently? I remember the Milpitas incident, and anyone who had suffered through it know what Ben stands for.

tman

06-03-2009, 11:10 PM

However, considering how much it costs to run a site like calguns, and how much personal risk and effort Ben put into so many other things, I find it amazing that Matt, having got thousands of dollars in donations, including some small amount from me, has the nerve to want money back even if the raffle was rigged from the start. It strikes me as incredibly arrogant, conveniently forgetful, and a real slap in the face, not only to Ben and Kestryll, but to the entire calguns community which did one heck of a lot to rescue Matt's butt.People who donated to Matt's fund did so because they wanted to help a fellow gun owner who they felt was being shafted by the system and it's a totally separate issue.

Since you said "even if it was rigged", let's assume it was for the sake of argument. If it were rigged, how does that make Matt in the wrong for requesting a refund? Why should he have to tolerate dishonesty? Since he was helped out by the members of this group, he shouldn't speak up if he feels a couple people from that group is not only ripping him off but everyone else who participated in the raffle? Don't confuse the idea of dissent in the face of perceived dishonesty committed by a tiny minority within a organization with the idea of someone turning their back on that organization as a whole.

If it were rigged, Matt and anyone else who is involved shouldn't feel obligated just allow people to lie to them. It's not a slap in a face to ask for a refund, it would be a slap in the face to Calguns and all it's members/contributors by those involved in the deceitful act.

Note I continually specified "if it were rigged". I don't know it is or not.

truthseeker

06-03-2009, 11:19 PM

Man, I just read this whole thread and to me it is amazing that people would enter a raffle and then when they find out where the money went, expect a refund since they did not win.

I payed into the raffle for the RIFLE! If they made more than what the rifle cost, I don't care who/what/where the "extra" money went, because I entered the raffle for the RIFLE!

As far as anyone actually POSTING here that they think/feel it was/might have been "rigged", it would behoove you to post actual evidence/facts to back up your accusations BEFORE posting your opinion, because that is all that it is right now "YOUR OPINION".

Also, you make yourself look like an a** by even suggesting that the people that ran the raffle were dishonest without having/posting evidence to the contrary.

I have only met 3 people FTF from this board and none of those three were Artherd or Kestryll, yet I have no doubt that the raffle was legit because to believe otherwise (without evidence) makes you a fool!

As far as graphs/costs/etc... for how much it costs to run this site, I only care to the extent that the site has enough or MORE than enough to keep running. I would actually PAY to be able to be able to view this website, bacause without it I would never would have known that I could own some of the firearms that I bought (after gaining knowledge here) while living in California.

To everyone that keeps this site running,

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!

383green

06-03-2009, 11:19 PM

People who donated to Matt's fund did so because they wanted to help a fellow gun owner who they felt was being shafted by the system and it's a totally separate issue.

+1. Whatever comes of this sordid tinkling tournament, helping Matt fight those 12 bogus charges was the right thing for us to do, both for Matt as an individual and for all of us gun owners as a group (especially the OLL and belt-fed owners, given the nature of the charges he faced and the bad precedents that could be set by a loss in court). I do not expect to regret donating to his legal fund, no matter how this big disagreement turns out.

7x57

06-03-2009, 11:23 PM

Lessons learned:

1. It isn't enough to know yourself to be above reproach. You also have to appear to others to be above reproach.

7x57

obeygiant

06-03-2009, 11:37 PM

Ditto. $25. Send me a PM.
I'm in for $25, just send me a pm.

Matt C

06-03-2009, 11:59 PM

Ben talked with another member here over IM about how he was going to rig the auction, and have the member who won the auction sell the rifle. I could not post this earlier for two reasons, the person who sent me the chat logs asked me not to, and it was not yet verified that they were authentic.

Ben has now confirmed that he did make those statements, and provided an identical copy of the chat log himself, so there is no longer any question of authenticity, nor is confidentiality an issue any longer.

I understand that he may have some explanation of why he made those statements, and that he professes that they made falsely, although I cannot understand why he would do so. The fact remains that he did make them.

These statements by Ben himself, in addition to the suspicious circumstances surrounding the auction winners led be to the belief that the auction was indeed rigged.

I'm sure Ben with have some way to spin these things so he comes out innocent, he is very good at that. The ONLY reason I am asked for a refund is because I believe I never had any chance at winning the raffle, and neither did any of you.

I can't imagine what any of this has to do with the generous donations made by many people to my legal fund when I was in jail and unable to even ask for help. If you gave money to me great, I appreciate it, but don't try to hold it over my head every time you disagree with what I do or say, that is really messed up and unfair.

hoffmang

06-04-2009, 12:04 AM

Ben talked with another member here over IM about how he was going to rig the auction, and have the member who won the auction sell the rifle.

Did "another member" have a pecuniary interest that would be advanced by the statement he made to you?

Could it be that you're being taken for a ride by someone with an ulterior motive again?

-Gene

Scarecrow Repair

06-04-2009, 12:05 AM

I don't know any details, so I am just going to throw out some numbers here for the sake of argument. Adjust according to reality ...

Ben is well known in this community. I've never met him, but I'bve met several people who do know him, and I am not well connected. It seems likely that he has a lot of friends who would have bought raffle tickets, not just because they are in the gun rights community, but because he speaks with his friends and they would have known about the raffle sooner than most others.

If this raffle is like many others, let's suppose he sold 100 tickets and that 20 of those were friends of his who, if they had won, would have raised just as much question among certain cynics as was raised. That's odds of 5:1.

Now how many of these raffles were there? The comments lead me to believe at least two or three. That puts the odds at 5:2 or 5:3, assuming all were the same size and had the same set of buyers.

Seems more like a molehill than a mountain. If this be rigging, I say make the most of it, show us the proof.

hoffmang

06-04-2009, 12:10 AM

BWO,

Can you ask "another member" when he was terminated by Geovario, why he was fired by Geovario, and how much money he thinks Ben owes him? You can and probably are required to post that to keep your own credibility.

-Gene

Matt C

06-04-2009, 12:11 AM

Did "another member" have a pecuniary interest that would be advanced by the statement he made to you?

Could it be that you're being taken for a ride by someone with an ulterior motive again?

-Gene

Ben himself confirmed that he made the statements in an email he sent to you, so I don't understand how that member's motive, if such existed, matters here.

Also, I find it very odd that minutes ago I was suddenly unable to access CGN from my usual home IP. That is very interesting.

Seems more like a molehill than a mountain. If this be rigging, I say make the most of it, show us the proof.

I don't really think Ben is going to deny what he said at this point, so you have your proof. Whether you accept it as such, or perhaps accept whatever story he concocts to explain it, I'll leave to you.

hoffmang

06-04-2009, 12:14 AM

Ben himself confirmed that he made the statements in an email he sent to you, so I don't understand how that member's motive, if such existed, matters here.

Also, I find it very odd that minutes ago I was suddenly unable to access CGN from my usual home IP. That is very interesting.

I think you're ducking my point and I simply hope you missed it.

Did "another member" explain to you that he was terminated from Ben's employ and that he claims Ben owes him money?

-Gene

DedEye

06-04-2009, 12:17 AM

BWO,

Can you ask "another member" when he was terminated by Geovario, why he was fired by Geovario, and how much money he thinks Ben owes him? You can and probably are required to post that to keep your own credibility.

-Gene

I wasn't fired, I resigned. I can post a copy of the resignation email I sent in if that will keep you from attacking my character any further. Said letter includes a request for my final compensation, which amounted to approximately $550. Ben's reply to my letter mentioned he was going to send me "something similar" (A request for resignation? An official termination? I don't know), but it didn't come to that and it was a cordial split.

There is a reason that people are suspicious - some of it well founded, some of it a result of confusion - but at the request of people I still respect, I will not go into greater detail at this time.

Matt C

06-04-2009, 12:19 AM

I think you're ducking my point and I simply hope you missed it.

Did "another member" explain to you that he was terminated from Ben's employ and that he claims Ben owes him money?

-Gene

I'm really not trying to duck you. I don't know what motive he might have, and I don't see how it's relevant because Ben has admitted to making the statements. If you have info I don't here than please share it.

ETA: Well there is your answer.

Scarecrow Repair

06-04-2009, 12:20 AM

I'm sure Ben with have some way to spin these things so he comes out innocent, he is very good at that.

Did you come to that conclusion just because of this so-called rigging, or have you had that idea for some time? It sure sounds like you have some grudge against him for unrelated matters.

Frankly, this stinks. You hold up your hands and plead innocence in using the donated funds which helped you out, saying you were incommunicado at the time and had nothing to do with it. I sure didn't see anyone holding a gun to your head to force you to spend that money.

When it comes to track records, Ben has a long and glorious voluntary one. Yours is that of a chance martyr who has used his 15 minutes of fame to make yourself into a self-proclaimed expert on all sorts of legal matters beyond your ken. You'll need more than some claimed chat log, taken out of context, unpublished, and anonymous. I don't know what your game is, that is a puzzle, but why Ben would do what you claim is a bigger puzzle, and the small puzzle fronted by a small puzzler needs extraordinary proof.

Pfaaah!

Scarecrow Repair

06-04-2009, 12:23 AM

If you have info I don't here than please share it.

This is rich, coming from someone who waffled for 100 posts before finally dropping a few crumbs. You've got chat logs, you say -- how posting the whole thing, not just a few well-chosen words?

hoffmang

06-04-2009, 12:25 AM

I'm glad your finally willing to come forward DedEye.

If Ben did something incorrect with the sweepstakes, that is worrisome to one extent. However, at the equities it is obvious to someone not involved that he's spending more money than he's taking in to support the hardware, bandwidth, and hosting costs of Calguns.net.

Dedeye, have you staked your money or reputation for the benefit of this community or has this community helped you out?

You've made a large number of accusations to everyone but Ben. You haven't exactly been direct yourself about your monetary dispute with Ben.

At this point neither of you have credibility on the issue. However, I see that Ben has been attempting to be transparent.

You had to be coaxed out of the shadows.

I suggest you forget about the $600 and move on.

-Gene

Matt C

06-04-2009, 12:26 AM

Did you come to that conclusion just because of this so-called rigging, or have you had that idea for some time? It sure sounds like you have some grudge against him for unrelated matters.

Come to what conclusion? If you mean that Ben has no integrity, then yes, his prior personal actions had already led me to that conclusion.

Frankly, this stinks. You hold up your hands and plead innocence in using the donated funds which helped you out, saying you were incommunicado at the time and had nothing to do with it. I sure didn't see anyone holding a gun to your head to force you to spend that money.

I didn't spend it, it went directly into a trust fund which was setup and controlled by the law firm, I never had any control of it whatsoever.

When it comes to track records, Ben has a long and glorious voluntary one. Yours is that of a chance martyr who has used his 15 minutes of fame to make yourself into a self-proclaimed expert on all sorts of legal matters beyond your ken. You'll need more than some claimed chat log, taken out of context, unpublished, and anonymous. I don't know what your game is, that is a puzzle, but why Ben would do what you claim is a bigger puzzle, and the small puzzle fronted by a small puzzler needs extraordinary proof.

Again, the log came from Ben himself. I don't know what better proof I could possibly provide beyond his own words, "oh yeah I'm gonna rig it".

jmlivingston

06-04-2009, 12:26 AM

Calpop gives 15MBPS for free which comes out to 4.95 terabytes of transfer a month if spread out.

Unfortunately when you're hosting a website you don't get to spread out your data transfers. I've not seen the CGN bandwidth charts myself, but I can guarantee you that there are peaks in the morning and evening with lulls late at night and probably a mild dip during the typical work day. (Probably a slight rise in traffic between 12-1pm.)

To address another post in this thread, while it's not the norm to buy bandwidth in volume transferred that's not unheard of especially with a Tier 2 or Tier 3 data center. Sort of an alternative pay-as-you-go methodology comparable to "burstable" circuits (which really aren't "burstable" per se, they run at a fixed rate say 45 Mb for a DS3 but the customer buys in at say a minimum 20Mb of peak usage then pays for levels exceeding that. Most big customers don't go with these options, it's too unpredictable on the expense side and CFO's tend not to like that. ;)

John

ivanimal

06-04-2009, 12:27 AM

OK folks here is the story. I spoke to Ben, DEDEYE, BWO and everybody else involved. Here is the final word,There is only hearsay at best to even start a claim of impropriety. That is from BWO and DE themselves! Ben agrees that he would have done things differently if he had the chance but no impropriety was ever done. End of story.

I am not going to allow this infighting to continue. Take it to PM or better yet just leave. I am sick and tired of talking to all of you by phone or in person only to see it hash out here again. YOU ALL NEED TO STEP AWAY FROM YOUR COMPUTERS OR THE BAN HAMMER WILL FALL! Got it?

Good.

Matt C

06-04-2009, 12:32 AM

OK, I'm done. Also thanks to whomever unblocked my IP.

truthseeker

06-04-2009, 12:37 AM

OK, I'm done. Also thanks to whomever unblocked my IP.

I thought that if you are banned they LOCK your account, not block IP address since IP address can easily be changed.

Matt C

06-04-2009, 12:38 AM

I thought that if you are banned they LOCK your account, not block IP address since IP address can easily be changed.

Yeah, I was not banned, but something very strange happened. Maybe just a glitch...

Beatone

06-04-2009, 12:40 AM

Glad the drama is over. I don't want my money back and I certainly don't feel ripped off. Can't wait until next time to help out Calguns. Keep up the good work guys.

redneckshootist

06-04-2009, 12:53 AM

OK, I'm done. Also thanks to whomever unblocked my IP.

if your really done why dont you stop posting in this topic. or are you just lying?

Kestryll

06-04-2009, 1:53 AM

Ben has now confirmed that he did make those statements, and provided an identical copy of the chat log himself, so there is no longer any question of authenticity, nor is confidentiality an issue any longer.

I understand that he may have some explanation of why he made those statements, and that he professes that they made falsely, although I cannot understand why he would do so. The fact remains that he did make them.

These statements by Ben himself, in addition to the suspicious circumstances surrounding the auction winners led be to the belief that the auction was indeed rigged.

I'm sure Ben with have some way to spin these things so he comes out innocent, he is very good at that.

Ben himself confirmed that he made the statements in an email he sent to you, so I don't understand how that member's motive, if such existed, matters here.
I don't really think Ben is going to deny what he said at this point, so you have your proof. Whether you accept it as such, or perhaps accept whatever story he concocts to explain it, I'll leave to you.

You are still not being honest with this are you?

Yes, I've seen and have the 'logs' you are referring to.

yes, I know who the parties involved were.

You fail to mention that the parties involved were NOT the ones who won the random drawing you are questioning here.

You fail to mention that the chat logs were a three way discussion that culminated in Ben addressing the fact that the concept of 'rigging' was brought up by another participant, discussed in private between Ben and the third person and the second participant called on his suggestion and desire to be the 'winner' of the next sweepstakes.
Not to mention that while party two was pitching 'rigging to Ben they were also discussing a 'double cross' of the 'rigging' to burn Ben.

Instead of presenting any real evidence you hint at vague information while trying your best to 'color' the perception with your assumptions and comments about Ben that are actually outright accusations.
You do NOT provide anything but the slightest hints of evidence while spending more time desperately trying to suggest that Ben has all these dark motives.

Your comments about Ben 'spinning things' would be amusing in light of your efforts to present nothing and calling it 'damning evidence' if it weren't for the fact that your too obvious attempt at character assassination weren't SO obvious, over the top and bumbling.

You are being deceitful, dishonest and trying your damnedest to portray Ben as being so and hoping no one will notice or call you on your half truths and oh so subtle continued accusations about Ben's character.

ivanimal

06-04-2009, 2:11 AM

I was trying to save the character assassinations from this thread. Kes its your forum and you will do what you wish. As always will voice my opinion.

I am sincerely sick and tired of the allegations and misconceptions that finished in the finger pointing at one of our staunchest supporters. As I said above there were things that both sides could do differently. The fact that this crap storm was started by and fostered through totally unsubstantial claims just goes right through me. For the first time in my seven years as a calguns moderator. I have let something get under my skin. That is why I asked that this die a slow death for all to see. There were a lot of first for me in this drama, like the baiting post above, (See Angry). I always feel that some good comes of all bad things, I am still waiting for some good to come of this.

DedEye

06-08-2009, 12:46 AM

I need to publicly apologize to Ben Cannon (artherd) for accusations of fraud made in relation to the raffle of his .308 Bushmaster rifle.

The accusation that Ben had rigged the raffle stemmed from a conversation between Ben and I, where I suggested he ask Ben to rig the giveaway in jest. Ben joked about it as well and I misunderstood him. After I made it an issue with other members here and it became an accusation, Ben contacted me again and told me it had never been his intention to rig the raffle for the other member to win. He was at a loss as to where this came from, till I reminded him of our conversation. Once I realized I was wrong it was too late.

To be clear: Ben never intended to rig the raffle in the way I accused him. I was wrong, and I apologize.

I should have realized that Ben's statements were a joke, just as mine were and taken them as such, or spoken to him directly if I had concerns before approaching others. For whatever reason, I did not, and as word spread amongst other people it was inevitably posted publicly on the board.

I screwed up, and I apologize.

ivanimal

06-08-2009, 9:05 AM

I have merged this to be where it belongs.

Matt C

06-08-2009, 10:59 AM

I deeply regret publicly coming forward with my suspicions regarding the activities of a highly respected and influential member of Calguns, Ben Cannon, when I did not at that time possess incontestable proof of wrongdoing on his part. It is not a mistake I will repeat, nor do I have any interest in pursuing or even discussing this matter any further.