If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Forensic evidence

What I find very puzzling in the right autopsy picture: there is a second reddish circular mark/bruise around JB's neck below the cord.
How did this mark get there? It seems it was not caused by the cord, for the cord is in another place.

Had something else been pulled around JB' neck before?

Or was the cord first pulled around JB's neck to strangle her, and afterwards the knot was tied? And as the knot was being tied, the cord was pushed upwards?

I also read something in a crime fiction book which might explain the type of marks on JB too. From Donna Leon "Fatal Remedies", p. 127 (Donna Leon is a very popular crime fiction author here in Europe).

[the victim, Mitri, has been strangled and there are two circular indentations in his neck. The coroner Dr. Rizzardi comes to the following conclusion in his report]:

"The double mark on Mitri's neck was, he had determined, a hesitation mark on the part of the murderer, who had probably loosened the cord momentarily to tighten his grip, shifting it and thus leaving a second indentation in Mitri's flesh."

Maybe something similar happened with JB? The perp tried to tighten his/her grip, loosened the cord and shifted it, and that's why there are two circular marks around JB's neck?

I read somewhere that the red triangle is simply livermortis settling of blood. That suggests she was lying face down for some time. Then the perp turned her over because that's the way she was found face up. I doubt an intruder molester would wait around.

I read somewhere that the red triangle is simply livermortis settling of blood. That suggests she was lying face down for some time. Then the perp turned her over because that's the way she was found face up. I doubt an intruder molester would wait around.

What I find very puzzling in the right autopsy picture: there is a second reddish circular mark/bruise around JB's neck below the cord.
How did this mark get there? It seems it was not caused by the cord, for the cord is in another place.

Had something else been pulled around JB' neck before?

Or was the cord first pulled around JB's neck to strangle her, and afterwards the knot was tied? And as the knot was being tied, the cord was pushed upwards?

I also read something in a crime fiction book which might explain the type of marks on JB too. From Donna Leon "Fatal Remedies", p. 127 (Donna Leon is a very popular crime fiction author here in Europe).

[the victim, Mitri, has been strangled and there are two circular indentations in his neck. The coroner Dr. Rizzardi comes to the following conclusion in his report]:

"The double mark on Mitri's neck was, he had determined, a hesitation mark on the part of the murderer, who had probably loosened the cord momentarily to tighten his grip, shifting it and thus leaving a second indentation in Mitri's flesh."

Maybe something similar happened with JB? The perp tried to tighten his/her grip, loosened the cord and shifted it, and that's why there are two circular marks around JB's neck?

rashomon,

If you read Coroner Meyer's Autopsy report he states:

FINAL DIAGNOSIS:

I. Ligature strangulation

.
.
.

CLINOCOPATHOLIGICAL CORRELATION:

Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.

That is asphyxia by strangulation and Ligature strangulation now taking into account Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks regarding JonBenet being digitally penetrated, its likely that Coroner Meyer was aware he was dealing with a staged homicide?

I think its possible that Coroner Meyer considered the ligature and garrote as cosmetic, since the lack of underlying physical damage to JonBenet's trachea, hyoid structures, and the neat circumferential ligature loop, which exhibits few marks along its cirumference etc, must surely have led such an experienced MD as Coroner Meyer to conclude that although the ligature may have played a part in JonBenet's asphyxiation, it need not have been looped around her neck exactly where it was when she was examined?

Had something else been pulled around JB' neck before?

imo a ligature and it need not have been the one found looped around her neck on dicovery in the wine-cellar, this is the nature of the staging, its designed to deflect your attention away from what may have occurred?

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, JonBenet was killed elsewhere in the house, the blankets, the garrote and ligature are all designed to present a fake homicide.

Its unlikely that JonBenet was killed accidently, accidents do not need homicides to mask them, particularly one as violent as that portrayed in the wine-cellar.

The wine-cellar staging was plan-B as evidenced by John Ramsey's desire to leave Colorado by plane, the morning of the 911 call, this was its likely true motivation.

JonBenet had been murdered then a staging applied this was then revised to that of the wine-cellar in the hope that the Ramsey's could exit interstate, that was the strategy, and it nearly worked.

Somebody fuelled by immense anger decided to take JonBenet out she was subjected to numerous head injuries, not discounting the cranial fracture, and asphyxiated, or it was the other way round, whichever, this was no accident.

The wine-cellar staging was plan-B as evidenced by John Ramsey's desire to leave Colorado by plane, the morning of the 911 call, this was its likely true motivation..

UKGuy,
Are you saying John Ramsay planned the flight to Charlevoix all as part of the planned murder of JonBenet?

I find your proposal that it was premeditated, fascinating but hard to believe.

Note, many people believe that John wanted to leave by plane after finding JonBenet. I read that that is a misunderstanding, that he just wanted to call Archuletta to let him know what happened and why the flight to Charlevoix was cancelled.

UKGuy,
Are you saying John Ramsay planned the flight to Charlevoix all as part of the planned murder of JonBenet?

I find your proposal that it was premeditated, fascinating but hard to believe.

Note, many people believe that John wanted to leave by plane after finding JonBenet. I read that that is a misunderstanding, that he just wanted to call Archuletta to let him know what happened and why the flight to Charlevoix was cancelled.

Rupert,
Well here is how I read it:

Perfect Murder Perfect Town: Lawrence Schiller, chap 2.

At about 1:30 PM, White said, his wife called home and told her niece that JonBenet had been found dead. White also said that around 3:00 PM, he had called Ramsey's pilot to cancel a flight to Atlanta that John Ramsey had made arrangements for after finding his daughter's body. White told the pilot the Ramsey's might not be allowed to leave that night because of the police investigation.

.
.
.
Also around 1:30 PM

Perfect Murder Perfect Town: Lawrence Schiller, chap 1.

In the study, however, another detective overheard John Ramsey talking on the phone to his private pilot. He was making plans to fly somewhere before nightfall. Moments later, Ramsey told Mason that he, his wife, and his son would be flying to Atlanta that evening. He said he had something really important to attend to. At first Mason thought Ramsey was planning to leave the country. "You can't leave," Mason told him. "We have a lot of unfinished business here. We want to talk to you."

So there you are, the Ramsey hope was that the police would turn up do a cursory search and if JonBenet was not found then they would search outwards from the house, with the Ramsey's leaving for Atlanta, probably anywhere but Colorado, and out of jurisdiction?

The flight to Atlanta was part of Plan-B, they never knew if it would work, but what else could they do, their prior staging was deemed inefective, so JonBenet was redressed , hair restyled, garrote applied, blankets added etc, all to suggest a bedtime abduction, then the 911 call was made the rest is history.

What you see in the wine-cellar is not how it happened its a staged crime-scene, thats the scene the Ramsey's want you to view, how she died and how JonBenet and her crime-scene was cleaned up is hidden from view.

There is more to the death of JonBenet than meets the eye, it goes beyond the theories promoted by the lead detectives e.g. Intruder vs. Accident, the forensic evidence suggests it is more complex.

Det. Michael Everett informed Your Affiant that after the discovery of the girl's body that he walked through the basement area of the house to attempt to determine if any persons were present in the basement. In the area where Det. Arndt had told Det. Everett that the decedent had been found by her father he observed two blankets on the floor in the center of the room.

UKGuy,
Are you saying John Ramsay planned the flight to Charlevoix all as part of the planned murder of JonBenet?

I find your proposal that it was premeditated, fascinating but hard to believe.

Note, many people believe that John wanted to leave by plane after finding JonBenet. I read that that is a misunderstanding, that he just wanted to call Archuletta to let him know what happened and why the flight to Charlevoix was cancelled.

Then why was he informed they could not go anywhere and to cancel the travel plans to Atlanta till advised otherwise.

There is more to the death of JonBenet than meets the eye, it goes beyond the theories promoted by the lead detectives e.g. Intruder vs. Accident, the forensic evidence suggests it is more complex.

UKGuy,
I too have wondered if it was premeditated, but didn't think it was John.

When I look at the pictures, the poor girl.

I don't believe they planned the Charlevoix flight in conjunctiion with the murder. I think something happened by someone with alot of rage.

The lower ring and then the final upper location of the cord suggests that the perp tightened the garrote twice. To me that is controlled vicious murder (controlled rage). Perhaps someone who was cunning enough to leave no evidence.

TV Sunday Night

I agree that it was evidently someone too cunning to leave evidence, and just maybe the reason we haven't heard of another case just like this one, he may have considered it a work of art, one of a kind, a masterpiece of a murder. Exclusive for the Ramsey family. What could they have done to him? Rejection? Because he kept phoning to get attention from PR during the Grand Jury according to "The Patricia Letters" which I'm sure are still at ACandyRose.

Nov. 5 Sunday night Nova talked about bog bodies, celtic sacrifices or maybe executions, preserved by bog chemicals for more than 2000 years. One had his hair pulled back in a little bun, which reminded me of JonBenet's hair maybe having been re-arranged, and had been bashed on the head with something both heavy and sharp. He was only 5'2" so they speculated the hair do was to make him look taller. Maybe. Maybe not. Another man, found only 25 mi away, was six and a half ft tall, and I don't know how they could tell because only a crab-shaped piece of torso was found, arms circled in front like a crab's. No head, no nothing lower than the chest. They drove stakes through their limbs to hold them on the bottom of the bog, covered by water. They could tell from hair and nails the men were well-nourished before their vicious murders.

Another show was about a little Colorado boy killed in February 1996, who'd been adopted in Russia, and the adoptive mother couldn't put up with his "Terrible Two's", had her lawyer claim "Reactive Attachment Disorder" caused him to bang his head and otherwise harm himself, all over his back as well as his front. The mother seemed really nuts herself, was upset because the father had gone to play golf when she'd asked him not to leave her alone with the little boy, and called two therapists after she'd killed him instead of immediately calling 911, never did go to the hospital to even say goodbye when he was taken off life support, was busy arranging lawyers for herself. She even accused the toddler of masturbating, with the handle of a spatula she'd been using to protect herself from him. Impossible. Such a liar.

She only had to serve 8 yrs of a prison sentence, sadly. Unlike PR, she was still trying to blame it all on the baby. I think this was in Greely, Co.