High End Luxury Cars

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I went to dictionary.com to see what was listed as the definitions, and most of the definitions were about the obvious spiritual meanings, but this one got my attention:

sole = The central or integral part; the vital core

So, a car DOES have a soul. And what it has always meant to many is that some cars have a "special feeling" when driven and have "unique characteristics" that "identify that particular car" or type of car for what it is.

When I was younger, I owned a Ferrari (I needed to get it out of my system I think) and it had qualities unlike ANYTHING I had ever driven. It had a soul. And so did my Carrera (no longer own, either). BMW's have a soul, Mercedes have a soul, as most cars do, of course. Not too long ago, on the autospies website, there was discussion regarding the problems with the Mercury vehicles. It was suggested that the problem with the Mercury vehicles was that they had no soul! And that was their very problem. Interesting indeed, and maybe true?

So who ever says a car has no soul . . . stands corrected by the dictionary definition as well as the obvious historical expressive use of the word as it applies to cars.

The following is an article from Businessweek. As you said voice recognition will make BMW idrive issues irrelevant:

Scott Nelson, an analyst for Honda's planning group in Torrance, Calif., says: "In a few years, voice-recognition will be good enough to let you say, 'Find me a Beatles tune,' and the stereo will search satellite radio or programmed music and find one."

If you define "soul" as "the central or integral part; the vital core" how can anything be without "soul"? Even a homogeneous pound of cheese has a vital core, without which you will have less than one pound ;-)

Mercury vehicle certain has a soul by that definition; without the drive train there would be no functional Mercury vehicle.

Very much agree with the gist of what you are saying. A small exception: some professions do need a reliable car, which in the mechanical world often means a relatively new car if not brand new car from a reliable marque. That's one of the reasons why historically, HELM's were usually founded on a core value of reliability: Rolls had the Silver Ghosts that kept on ticking for 25yrs; Bentley had the 24hr race records, which in early days was more about reliability than sheer speed; Mercedes was the very definition of automotive reliability in the 70's and 80's. Other brands, even if expensive, were never really considered HELM brands, such as Ferrari, Lambo and to a lesser degree BMW (which even among BMW fans, are prized for the 3 series not 7 series).

Other brands, even if expensive, were never really considered HELM brands, such as Ferrari, Lambo and to a lesser degree BMW (which even among BMW fans, are prized for the 3 series not 7 series).

Ferrari and Lamborghini would be better classified in the exotic car category, IMO.

Further, maybe you should review how FORBES classifies the luxury car segment in their latest list of the top 10 luxury cars.

brightness04, Let me just say that I think you are stretching things a LOT to try to suggest that BMW does not (in ANY degree) belong in the H.E.L.M. category, merely because it is "prized for the 3-series". Heck, it is not uncommon for the H.E.L.M.'s to have lower-tiered models that account for the majority of units sold for that particular brand. I do not agree with your suggestion that the flagship models should represent the MAJORITY of units sold (or be "prized") in order for the brand to be classified as a H.E.L.M. That is absolute nonsense.TagMan

...there is no post where I ever said such a thing or even suggested such a thing.

Not in so many words, perhaps... but all these talk about *soul* and its definitions from you and your BMW pals ad nauseum are difficult to comprehend within our HELM board, don't you agree ? We are discussing High End Luxury Marques, and we get statements like "BMW has soul but Lexus just doesn't" (quoting Hpowders).

Let's get back to talking about the merits/demerits of these cars. Now, do you have a comment about FY2006 and beyond for your fav German brands in the NA market ?

brightness04, Let me just say that I think you are stretching things a LOT to try to suggest that BMW does not (in ANY degree) belong in the H.E.L.M. category, merely because it is "prized for the 3-series".

The point was not made based on unit sales. I was merely repeating what some BMW fans said, that 3 series being far better at capturing the essence of the BMW brand than the 7 series. BMW is more a sporting brand, along the lines of Porsche, Ferrari and Lambo (not quite as exotic), not a luxury brand in the traditional sense.

I may be a little slow here (late at night and all), so please elaborate. You claimed to have found a definition of "soul" that makes it possible for a car to have a "soul"; following that same definition (your found), I pointed out that that definition would endow every car, and indeed most everything a "soul" . . . which somehow conflicts with your earlier statement that European cars have "soul" whereas Japanese cars don't . . .

"Toyota Australia executive director of marketing David Buttner says the new-look Camry carries a lot of styling cues from the Lexus. It has a similar bull-nosed bonnet, bold grille and lumpy rear end of the Lexus LS460, which was unveiled the previous day."

I thought that Toyota was seeking to separate the Lexus and Toyota more. But then you have an exec come out and say that the plebian Camry was styled similarly to the Lexus flagship??? Errr...

Those were Hpowders' words, in that case, and not mine. I do not want to be labeled as belonging to one "camp" or another. If you agree or disagree with something I say, then I would be respectfully interested to know your point of view. OK?

NEVER said it! Tell me the post number where you think I said such a thing . . . and then I'll get back to you. Gosh, I am assuming that you do know how to determine who the author of a post is, and who the author is replying to?

The original LS400 still looks like a today's car, whether you consider that Lexus or Toyota look is quite besides the point . . . the point being that the original LS400 was at the very forefront of the bigggest style transformation that has taken place since 1989: cars becoming like melted soap shaped

First of all the original LS400 looks nothing like the slab-sided LS430, nothing at all. Secondly if you call re-hashing old Mercedes cues from the 80's and rounding them off a "transformation" fine with me, however the LS400 didn't go down in the history books as any such thing when it comes to styling.

At the same time we both agree that the S class in 1989 looked like cars from an entirely different era, with the boxy styles of the 80's. How in the world could Lexus be accused of copying a car that looked entirely different?

I've explained this many time, see above.

The Mack Truck illustration is called Analogy. Please read analogies carefully and understand the ramifications and what is being analogized before tossing around words like "ridiculous." Calling someone's post "ridiculous" is not exactly a rebuttal.

Honestly Brightness if you had read the post instead of looking for something to cry foul about, you would have seen where I said it would be ridiculous to get into a conversation about your Mack truck "analogy", not that your post itself was ridiculous.

The restyles of both Camry and LS will only increase their domination further. Maybe they look to much a like, maybe not. In terms of sales, it wont matter a bit. Camry Inc. will beat many automakers by itself.

The restyles of both Camry and LS will only increase their domination further. Maybe they look to much a like, maybe not. In terms of sales, it wont matter a bit. Camry Inc. will beat many automakers by itself

The similarity will have a positive impact on the sales of the Camry and a negative impact on the sales of the LS. Many people will be turned off in buying a look-alike Camry at a premium price. Many people will love buying a value priced Camry that looks like a LS.

The BMW sausage concept was a historic success because it reinforced the "different size but same DNA idea". A "sausage concept" between a Camry and a LS may not be as warmly accepted in image conscious North America where the brands of Toyota and Lexus are viewed as being quite distinct.

Also, why do you react like BMW is an anathema to the HELM board every time I talk about it. Last I looked, the BMW 7 series is part of this thread.

B/w your *soul* comments and Tagman's search for a definition, it can get all mixed up... You are a self-confessed non-LUXURY car owner and buyer, but this board puts LUXURY first in the cars we discuss here. That is why it is labelled High End Luxury Marque. That is also why Pat_Host continually injects himself to get us talking about the HELM to which the 7 is an important part. The 7-series is a LUXURY full size sedan, but biased towards sportiness, more so than the S or the LS. That is a wonderful attribute of the 7 to be admired and respected. But, where Lexus biases towards the luxury scale, you continually bash it as a "floating barge". My LS does not ride like a Buick, or a Ford Grand Marque with body-on-frame chassis; the LS is a uni-body chassis built to the highest level Japan can offer. It is the very best from Japan, period. And seems to be the very best here in the NA market as well, at least in its class.

For those who want luxury at the high end, the LS has met their needs more so than the S or 7. The 7 has had 2+ years on the LS to show itself to the market, and failed... The new LS460 will show BMW what a luxury full size sedan truly should be, and the market will speak in droves buying this car more than the 750i. My prediction.

Maybe u missed the part where the LS outsells the S for the last 5 years running.... Need a link ??? The market is the final arbiter of these debates. And the LS is far more popularly bought/leased YoY than the S-class sedans. That is a fact.