Post by Provengreil on Apr 1, 2018 3:25:43 GMT

So, I did a thing. Unable to to test out how bad it'll be for us against CG due t lack of opponents that will either test them, or play Menoth for ME to test them, I looked though every card in our database for fire effects to answer the above question. This is what I came up with.

Great Importance (Fire is a central funtion and/or concept of the model. Crippled or non-functional when faced with immunity)

Feora 1

-2x flamethrower

-Crit fire wapons

-Blazing effigy

-Ignite critical

-Immolation

-Wall of Fire

-Feat

Feora 2

-Caustic Presence

-Flamethrower

-Crit fire weapon

-Righteous Flames

-Cleansing Fire

-Firestarter

-Fire Step

-Feat

Feora 3

-Flamethrower

-Cont Fire weapn

-Flame trail

-Fire Step

-Molten Metal

-Feat(partial)

Harbinger

-Feat (it's the only fire on her card, but it's the entire effect of her FEAT, so I'm putting it here)

Severius 2

-Ashes to Ashes (fire as a theme isn't central to his kit, but A2A is. More so than his first incarnation, even)

-Feat(Hazards)

Malekus

-Flamethrower

-Cont Fire weapon

-Ashen Veil

-Immolation

-Ignite

-Feat

Reznik 2

-Mount Attack Cont Fire

-Feat

Castigator

-Cont Fire Weapons

-Combustion

-Ashen Veil

Eye of Truth

-Fire Ranged weapon

-Cont Fire weapon (melee and ranged)

-Ashen Veil

-Flame Burst

Hand of Judgement

-Flamethrower

-Crit Fire Weapon

-Blazing Wrath

-Fuel for the Flames

-Flame Burst

Purifier (Could go as far as Low, but the fiery bits are the only real reason to take this thing over a dervish)

-2xCrit Fire Weapon

-Flame Trail

Reckoner

-Fire Ranged Weapon

-2xCrit Fire Weapon

-Ashen Veil

Repenter

-Fire Ranged Weapon

-Cont Fire Weapon

Revelator

-4X Fire Ranged Weapon

-2xCont Fire Weapon

-Burning Ground

Vanquisher

-Fire Ranged Weapon

-Cont Fire AOE

Sunburst Crew

-Fire Ranged Weapon

-Cont Fire AOE

Cleansers

-Flamethrowers

-Cont Fire weapon

-Crit Fire Weapon

-Ashen Veil

Moderate Importance (Can play around immunity, but will have some function negated)

Severius 1

-Ashes to Ashes

-Immolation

Kreoss 1 (I put him here rather than in Low because he has 2 nukes, both are fire, and his assassination run sometimes wants a nudge from a spell or two)

-Cleansing Fire

-Immolation

High Reclaimer

-Cont Fire Weapon

-Ashes to Ashes

-Burning Ash

-Immolation

Tristan 2

-Cleansing Fire (I'd put it on low, but his feat turn has some potential in an assassination run via arcing this)

Vindictus

-Immolation

-Penitence damage is fire damage

Judicator

-2X Flamethrower

Reclaimer

-Cont Fire Weapon

-Ashen Veil

Wrack

-Fiery Blast (the bomb isn't why you brought it, but it is a ward against melee attckers)

Zealots (they COULD be in high, but I use them as bubble wrap that gets to die twice for souls and vengeance mostly. Still, their ranged attacks are fire.)

-Fire Ranged AOE

-Crit Fire Weapon

Low Importance (Fire effects exist but are either vestigal, last ditch, exceptionally cornercase, or typically inferior to other effects of the model)

Durst

-Eruption of Ash(weapon effect)

-Cleansing Fire

Kreoss 2

-Cleansing Fire

Reznik 1

-Ignite Critical

-Feat secondary effect

-Wrack Bombing tactic

Kreoss 3

-Ignite

Testament

-Cont Fire Weapon

-Ashen Veil Upkeep

Avatar of Menoth

-Flame Burst

Crusader

-Crit Fire Weapon

Fire of Salvation

-Cont Fire Weapon

Sanctifier (I put this ability on this model to enough use to push it to Moderate, but that experience is unlikely to apply to enough places)

-Ashen Veil

Scourge of Heresy

-Cont Fire Weapon

Vessel of Judgement

-Eruption of Faith

Champion

-Cont Fire Weapon

Covenant

-Flames of Wrath

Deliverer Arms Master

-Fire Ranged Weapon

-Crit Fire Weapon

Tristan 1

-Immolation

Paladin

-crit fire weapon

Pyrrhus

-Crit Fire Weapon

Cinerators

-Cont Fire Weapon

Temple Flameguard

-Crit Fire Weapons

Rhoven and Guard

-Cont Fire Weapon

-Cleansing Fire

No fire (404 Fire not found)

Amon

Thyra

Blessing of Vengeance

Blood of Martyrs

Dervish

Devout

Guardian

Indictor

Redeemer

Revenger

Templar

Vigilant

Punch Monk

Basion Seneschal

Errant Seneschal

Elias Gade

Gravus

Vilmon

Knight Exemplar Seneschal

Nicia

Mechanic

Vassal

Attendant Priest

Heirophant

Choir

Daughters of the Flame

Deliverers

Bastions

Errants

Vengers

Flame Bringers

Idrian Skirmishers

Knights Exemplar

Warcasters: 7/5/5/2. More than 60% of our warcasters will be strongly affected by fire immunity.

Warjacks/BE: 8/1/6/10. About 40% of our warjacks are unable to do the jobs we brought them for against immunity. Note that of the ranged options, that's all but 2 (75%), both of which have the inaccurate rule and one of which(Judicator) Still has fire sprays.

Solos: 0/2/2/12. Only 2 out of our 16 solos (about 12%) meaningfully rely on fire effects: given that half of them are exemplars and the rest are still weaponmasters or support, this isn't suprising.

Units: 2/1/3/9. 20% of our unit selection goes out the window when faced with mass immunity. That doesn't sound so bad unless you remember that the choir doesn't fight, and most of the rest are exemplars. Outside that theme our combat infantry list gets short quick for untyped damage.

Factionwide: 17/9/16/33. 26 out of 75, just over a full third of our faction, is significantly dependent on fire damage and ash clouds. Of course, this game is about the casters and their warjacks far more than the army as a whole, and those two categories are significantly more affected, so the practical percentage is much higher. I do not have a way to turn that concept into any number that means something, however.

Post by dazzla on Apr 1, 2018 6:27:34 GMT

Thanks for the analysis. I do not mind one or two models/units in the opposing army having immunities. The issue arises when there are a substantial amount of immunity in the opposing army. For me it is not just that substantial immunities affect game balance. It is that they affect the game experience because they are so stifling of model, play and tactical options. That is well below the type of game play experience that I expect after I spend my money on warmachine.

IMO immunities are also different to defences like stealth, because they affect a number of aspects of play (for example, affecting ranged attacks and also melee effects like critical fire and also defensive tech like ashen veil).

Post by Provengreil on Apr 1, 2018 12:35:26 GMT

I didn't put it it in the post, but I did a quick pass over all the CG stuff. it's about 50/50 on a card by card basis for fire immunity (oddly, only 1 caster). However, the units and warjacks that are immune would generally form about 80% of any actual force put on the table, unless you're doing the railless thing.

Post by spideredd on Apr 1, 2018 14:30:22 GMT

I think that it's worth noting that although all of the Feoras are affected by fire immunity, they wouldn't be affected by any of the proposed changes to immunity.I would argue that they are probably the most affected by immunity to fire.

Post by Provengreil on Apr 1, 2018 14:38:35 GMT

That's definitely true: even aegis would shut down half of their effects, as well as one of the main reasons to bring her character warjack. if it was just limited to these casters I wouldn't mind nearly so much, and write it off to bad matchups. However, there are legitimate pairings set entirely in the Great Importance category: Reznik 2/Sevvy 2, Feora 2/ Harbinger for instance. Feora 3's most important bit is incite, so she COULD be one category lower, but literally everything else is fire based anyway.

PP has already outright stated that CG is getting this much immunity and that's not changing. They've also walked back changes to immunity in the first place. So what we need is for the castigator and purifier to get the sanctifier's anti-incorporeal ability, but for fire damage. The new colossal in crucible guard has opened that door: PP needs to hear that we need it more than they ever will at every opportunity.

Post by demonic on Apr 1, 2018 15:04:37 GMT

mmm, the fact that a single faction would have 80% fire elemental immunity takes our entire temple flameguard theme force out of the competitive bracket unless it was a 3 list pool instead of a 2 list. It would affect my fun with Menoth enough that I'd stop playing them until it was fixed. Considering that Cygnar, Cryx, and Grimkin are a much more dominant force in the final brackets than Menoth, trolls, or minions, I don't see why a faction would have such a strong negation tactic against elemental fire. Since circle can completely negate electricity and disruption doesn't work on beasts, currently, I would have expected to have the corruption element hit before fire. I'm glad I learned about this before CG went live, as I was working on a 300 dollar deal with someone who was making room specifically for them.

Edit: After a closer look, any exemplar interdiction list would chew them up and spit them out. All of their heavily armored jacks are weak to chain weapons as well, which allows us to take advantage of our jacks having them. Yes, it negates Feora 1-3, but it doesn't affect the competitive list pairings we have with Menoth.

Post by streetpizza on Apr 2, 2018 14:05:22 GMT

Some of the things you've listed do actually have their game plan neutered by immunity fire but a some of them do not. The following in particular:

Feora3 - Her game plan does not hinge on applying fire and she does so much more than that. A small part of her kit is turned off but she can still perform her primary function for her lists.

Harbinger - The feat is no longer her main game plan. It's a good part of her kit but she is by no means neutered by having it turned off.

Reznik2 - Is so much more than his feat. It sucks losing out on its potential but again this guy does a lot more than explode infantry on feat turn.

Eye of Truth - None of the things you've listed are the strength of this model. Losing the gun does suck but that only puts him into moderately affected category. He's still hella good even into fire immune lists. If you want to pick something here mention the fact that he's only taken with malekus and malekus is shut down by fire immunity.

Purifier - Nobody takes this guy for flame trail (well nobody takes this guys period but you know ...). When he's in a list he's there for 2x chain weapons which is unaffected.

None of the above are "crippled" when faced with fire immunity. There are even more in that category that can still do other things but yes their primary function is turned off.

In the second category you are seriously reaching with the following:

Kreoss1Tristan2High ReclaimerVindictusWracks

We can build tons of excellent lists that don't give one hot damn (HA! Punny) about fire immunity. Make sure you plan accordingly and the sky will not be falling. Even Guardians of the Temple is playable with a daughter and temple flameguard focused build. Losing out on the cleanser option sucks but see the previous point about planning accordingly.

Post by Provengreil on Apr 2, 2018 14:50:41 GMT

I gave explanations for pretty much every one of those models and why I put them there. You can disagree but that post is by no means hyperbole, it's an assessment of the impact of fire immunity as I view it. We can, of course, dodge around fire in list building but when the fire factions are actively avoiding fire, you have a design issue.

RE: Reznik 2 and Harbinger: of course they're more than their feats. I don't care, because playing without a feat in response to an ability the developers consider as flavor only, and doesn't even come as an opportunity cost let alone a real one, absolutely sucks.

Post by paradox on Apr 2, 2018 14:57:33 GMT

Some of the things you've listed do actually have their game plan neutered by immunity fire but a some of them do not. The following in particular:

Feora3 - Her game plan does not hinge on applying fire and she does so much more than that. A small part of her kit is turned off but she can still perform her primary function for her lists.

Feora3 completely loses her feat, one of her abilities, her ranged attack is totally useless, and her two offensive spells are also useless. I disagree. She become wholly reliant on Redline and Incite. I think, instead, youre being too optimistic here.

Harbinger - The feat is no longer her main game plan. It's a good part of her kit but she is by no means neutered by having it turned off.

Again, there's a certain amount of patent dishonesty in arguing that rendering a feat totally ineffective is no big deal.

Reznik2 - Is so much more than his feat. It sucks losing out on its potential but again this guy does a lot more than explode infantry on feat turn.

It's especially true here.

Eye of Truth - None of the things you've listed are the strength of this model. Losing the gun does suck but that only puts him into moderately affected category. He's still hella good even into fire immune lists.

20pt heavies without ranged attacks....like Avatar, but withou Gaze.

In the second category you are seriously reaching with the following:

Kreoss1Tristan2High ReclaimerVindictusWracks

We can build tons of excellent lists that don't give one hot damn (HA! Punny) about fire immunity.

By tons, you really just mean EI exemplar spam. Because thats it. Meanwhile, CG can easily bypass clouds and Ashen Veil, and Magic Guns negate Vindy's feat and Passage. Most offensive spells are rendered useless, as are most ranged jacks (barring innaccurate ones). Youre pretty much down to idrians, which trancers can handle silly easily.

Make sure you plan accordingly and the sky will not be falling. Even Guardians of the Temple is playable with a daughter and temple flameguard focused build. Losing out on the cleanser option sucks but see the previous point about planning accordingly.

Read: just play EI and hope for the best. Because zealots are also negated. Maybe you do FM just paladins, but i to CG gunlines youre actually just gonna get shot up.

Post by privvy on Apr 2, 2018 15:17:07 GMT

If Crucible Guard does infantry spam, Reznik 2's feat does get hit quite hard. As someone who cleared 36 infantry with the feat in a game, I'd rather have the feat as an option to clear troops so my army can focus more on cracking armor or other threats.

Post by Provengreil on Apr 2, 2018 15:25:28 GMT

If Crucible Guard does infantry spam, Reznik 2's feat does get hit quite hard. As someone who cleared 36 infantry with the feat in a game, I'd rather have the feat as an option to clear troops so my army can focus more on cracking armor or other threats.

This is how I've used him. Why take much that mulches infantry when you have a feat that can legit clear every warrior model on a good day?