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For those that said Rita did not say stop making manga and just paint. She flat outright did Shiina in Japan is able to do both paint and have manga published if she wishes. But Rita is adamant about Shiina going back to England and there she will not have a manga publisher to publish Manga so how can you say Rita did not tell Shiina to stop making manga?

This is the age of the internet: You CAN just publish from England by sending things back to Japan. It's not like you need to be physically in Japan.

For those that said Rita did not say stop making manga and just paint. She flat outright did Shiina in Japan is able to do both paint and have manga published if she wishes. But Rita is adamant about Shiina going back to England and there she will not have a manga publisher to publish Manga so how can you say Rita did not tell Shiina to stop making manga?

If you want to argue about the posibilities or achiving both aspects, I would still say London is a better place. I mean Mashiro is a world class genius anyway, any good and reputational art institution would basically wish to satisfy all her needs and desires to create things, whether it is fine art or manga (good art instructors don't look down on manga, a cultural art that they are not expert themselves, they will be very careful with the method on how to approach things). And they have more power than Sakurasou to help Mashiro possibly improving both of her fine art and manga skills.

With express delivery and digital data tranfer, I don't it will be a problem for Mashiro to get a manga published in Japan even if she's in London.

This is the age of the internet: You CAN just publish from England by sending things back to Japan. It's not like you need to be physically in Japan.

Do you really think that if she went back to England that she would not be pressured out of manga? They have done nothing but hold her emotional growth down and the proof is how she was when the show first started and how much she has matured since. No, if she went back to England I doubt she would ever be able to live her dream and they would probably try to make her the old dependent self again that she once was. Know matter how any portrays it will how naive she was she was essentially a bird in a cage with no choices as she did not realize she had choices because they kept her dependent.

She reminded me of a mentally handicapped person that does not have the faculty to understand they only know enough to do what there parents ask them to do to the best of there knowledge to make there parents happy. Shiina with her level of understanding in the beginning appears to have been held down in that aspect and made to stay reliant when she had the potential not to be that dependent.

The needs of her would-be fans do not (and should not) enter the equation, on any other grounds than her own choosing to make them part of said equation.

This is the crux of our disagreement. It is here that I think you veer at least a step too far into a hyper-individualistic philosophy in which each of us might as well be an island.

Do I think that Shiina has a responsibility to be a painter? That she has to do that? No.

But do I think that she has a responsibility to carefully consider the impact that her talents can have for both herself and the world at large? Yes, I do.

That ought to "enter into the equation". It should be a factor in her decision. Does it need to be the decisive factor? No, but it should be a factor at least.

It is the absolute heights of selfishness and self-centered thinking for a person gifted with great talent to not even take some time to consider what their talents could mean for the world. Furthermore, a person who doesn't take the time to consider this may well end up hurting himself/herself in the long run, for reasons that wontaek has made clear before on this thread.

Shiina owes it not only to her fans, and not only to the art world, but also to herself, to really think about what she can do with her talents, and what is the best use of them. That should at least "enter into the equation" for what she chooses to do with them.

Do you really think that if she went back to England that she would not be pressured out of manga? They have done nothing but hold her emotional growth down and the proof is how she was when the show first started and how much she has matured since. No, if she went back to England I doubt she would ever be able to live her dream and they would probably try to make her the old dependent self again that she once was. Know matter how any portrays it will how naive she was she was essentially a bird in a cage with no choices as she did not realize she had choices because they kept her dependent.

She reminded me of a mentally handicapped person that does not have the faculty to understand they only know enough to do what there parents ask them to do to the best of there knowledge to make there parents happy. Shiina with her level of understanding in the beginning appears to have been held down in that aspect and made to stay reliant when she had the potential not to be that dependent.

I'm sorry but you don't know anything about good education at all. Especially if it's Mashiro we are talking about, I bet lots of places would kill to have her on board and with the right professional care, I don't think she would be mistreated like anything you mentioned. In fact, they would wish to be able to do the opposite, that is to give her even more freedom.

About her personality before and after coming to Sakurasou, I don't see that much of a difference myself, she sill prefers and do things her way without and iota concoern for people who might judge her (well, she doesn't have to), Even the things she did for Sorata, that was just what she decided to do like it has always been. She's keeping everything to herself and just go with it, and unlike Aoyama, who is extremely independant and fail, Mashiro on other hand is still extremely dependent and so lucky to have the Sakurasou folks.

If they showed an arguement between her amd Rita or the professors back in London about her decision in manga and they rejected it, then sure I can understand your view. But given it's Mashiro, I would assume that she just decided that to herself and left without even talk to anybody.

The thing is, Sorata may have been just thinking out loud at the end there, but if Shiina heard it, she must have felt stabbed in the back.

When Rita showed up, Shiina welcomed her warmly, but when Rita said she had come to get her back to London, Shiina shoved her out the door and closed it. They had lived together for years, Shiina knows her and this was how she reacted. There is no question of what she wants, but Sorata spends his time with Rita and does nothing to stand up for the girl that depends on him. And now he sides with the opposition completely. How can their relationship take a blow like that?

(But just the fact that we have this level of discussion shows that this anime has done at least something right.)

The thing is, Sorata may have been just thinking out loud at the end there, but if Shiina heard it, she must have felt stabbed in the back.

When Rita showed up, Shiina welcomed her warmly, but when Rita said she had come to get her back to London, Shiina shoved her out the door and closed it. They had lived together for years, Shiina knows her and this was how she reacted. There is no question of what she wants, but Sorata spends his time with Rita and does nothing to stand up for the girl that depends on him. And now he sides with the opposition completely. How can their relationship take a blow like that?

(But just the fact that we have this level of discussion shows that this anime has done at least something right.)

I completely agree.
As for an earlier comment on how Rita is manupulative in getting back in the dorm and showing Sorata Mashiro's painting: Where was the manipulation? Sorata decided to pursue her on his own willl after a bit pondering. That Rita could predict his behaviour is, if at all, more a case about Sorata being easy to read. Nothing bad itself IMHO.
Yet his decision was also the reason for Mashiro's first "Sorata no baka" because he indirectly ignored her decision .
Next, the art museum: If Rita were so manipulating she'd be able to influence Sorata without showing him the painting. In doing so, Sorata was actually able to form a complete opinion/picture by himself before stating his opinion of what Mashiro should do. Before he only knew that Mashiro was awesome based on the internet website with the newspaper article which Jin showed him.

Sorata's comment in agreement was still understandable. He saw Mashiro's manga before and now her picture aka a real way of comparison. The latter made him completely immersed in the painting. Being confronted directly with the "real deal" does make his first reaction of agreeing with Rita nothing uncommon. That's not counting the possible incoming drama, should Mashiro have overheard him If worst comes to worst Sorata has always his friends who can talk some sense into him (well more likely Jin and Nanami as the reasonable persons of the cast).

Personally, I don't think Rita is being manipulative or wrong in any way but neither do I think someone should have to be obliged to consider the rest of the world regarding whether she wants to make use of her talents. The way I see it, if you're having to pressure someone to consider what the rest of the world wants then you've already lost. Great talent should never be pressured or forced out of someone because then the product will just be artificial. But it really depends on what you're sacrificing and what you're gaining so it's very situational. The problem with Shiina's case is that we don't know what she's thinking so we can't tell if she is actually factoring her fans or the rest of the world, or if she ever did anyway. My assumption is that the reason she doesn't want to go back to London to reach her full potential is because she values her friends more. I can't see anything wrong with that.

Seriously if you're not going to discuss things that are happening IN the anime then what are you doing here?

You are still avoiding the point of what said.
"The freedom is at the moment lost when people like you force others to drop their dreams and their lifes and make them do what you want them to do."

The Moment you say people should not be allowed, you are implying that people have no right to decide for themself and other people have the right to make decisuion for them.

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The hell It Is, that's what you keep forcing into my mouth because all I was talking about was the merIts of Mashiro going back to painting over drawIng manga- something that you seem to take it as slavery of some kind.

Nope. The moment you said that "she should not be allowed" to live her life how she wants, you redueced her to a mere tool that exist only to inspire other people.

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I Ignored your questIon before because you'll just twIst it to somethIng that Its not about; yes she is a human, yes she should make her decision. THAT DOSENT MEAN YOU CAN'T TRY TO CHANGE HER MIND.

There was no twisting at all. Just a simple question about a ridiculous statemat you made.
Good that you understood. So you agree that she is a human with fundamental rights like freedom to chose to do with her life what she wants and that your statement "she should not be allowed" was in conflight with those rights.

Quote:

Shiina owes it not only to her fans, and not only to the art world, but also to herself, to really think about what she can do with her talents, and what is the best use of them.

Correction. Only the marked part is what really counts and what metters. The rest irrelevant.

I come down on the side of staying in Japan. It doesn't have to be permanent, but it can be as long as Mashiro likes. She is gaining friends and affection and becoming a more independent person. Let her go back to painting later, after she has gotten manga-making out of her system. It hasn't been more than a few weeks or months. Let her have at least a year or two of this richer life.

Does she have some responsibility or other? Maybe in the long run she should try to develop her best talent, but at age 16 she should work on what she wants, not box herself into what others think is best. There's no other way for her to become a full-scale person.

Is Rita "manipulating"? Yes. She is using any stratagem she can to convince Mashiro to go (working on Sorata first, in this case), and she feels she has the right to. To her understanding, Mashiro is a simpleton who needs guidance. That is exactly what she was when she arrived at Sakurasou. I think she is a bit beyond that now. I was never happier than when Mashiro shut the door.

I believe Mashiro will eventually go back to painting. But it might be four years from now. Let her grow and develop more as a human, so she will have a deeper basis for her painting. Don't force her back into being a pampered monkey existing for the enjoyment and profit of art collectors.

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Kimura Juri木村珠莉 Joined Tokyo Voice Actors' Co-op in 2011, did voice-overs for corporate presentations. Anime bit parts 2013-14. Stars in Shirobako as Miyamori, will star in Mikagura Gakuen Kumikyoku (spring). Enjoys music, looking at Buddha images, reading. Used to work at a bookstore. Says she is a maudlin drunk. Age unknown.Hashihime blog | Twitter@nakanokimi |

The Moment you say people should not be allowed (...)
Nope. The moment you said that "she should not be allowed" (...)Just a simple question about a ridiculous statemat you made.
(...) your statement "she should not be allowed" was in conflight with those rights

I'm a bit baffled here because I've gone back and read the thread and I can't find where Chaos2Frozen made such a statement.

Personally, I don't think Rita is being manipulative or wrong in any way but neither do I think someone should have to be obliged to consider the rest of the world regarding whether she wants to make use of her talents. The way I see it, if you're having to pressure someone to consider what the rest of the world wants then you've already lost.

That makes no sense to me. You're basically saying that people can't change their mind or their approach to life, which is simply false. So, no, you haven't "already lost" just because you're trying to persuade someone to take the bigger picture into consideration here.

"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country." - John F. Kennedy

That's probably his most famous quote. It's not hard to extend it to... "Ask not what your world can do for you - ask what you can do for your world."

Isn't that a good attitude to encourage yourself and other people to have? Especially people with exceptional abilities, talents, and/or power for obvious pragmatic reasons?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Correction. Only the marked part is what really counts and what metters. The rest irrelevant.

Yeah, everybody else is irrelevant. The only person Shiina should care at all about is herself. Gotcha.

Sorata's comment in agreement was still understandable. He saw Mashiro's manga before and now her picture aka a real way of comparison. The latter made him completely immersed in the painting. Being confronted directly with the "real deal" does make his first reaction of agreeing with Rita nothing uncommon.

Thank you for typing this out, imo Sorata made no fault at all regarding his last comment of the episode. It is just a natural reaction, It just shows your genuine appreciation to an amazing piece of art.

If he said anything otherwise after the whole minute of being jaw dropped, I would mark that as just being hypocrite.

Quote:

The problem with Shiina's case is that we don't know what she's thinking so we can't tell if she is actually factoring her fans or the rest of the world, or if she ever did anyway.

Exactly, we really need Mashiro input on the matter of her putting her talent aside and how she feels about fine art or manga in general. We've known so far that she loves painting and she wants to do manga, but even for me that is not enough. Why does she want to do manga that badly, consider all the arguement I made about freedom studying in England? Why does she love manga that much to go Japan? Why does it have to be Japan and in Sakurasou? Is it because of her friends? Of Sorata? Or did she actually had bad experiences in England? We don't know (and I think Rita too doesn't). And we need data to form any correct information as Rita needs to know more to give up and support Mashiro.

I see that you're lock on that one suggestion, then one quick question- Did you give it any thoughts about the other side of the argument- That is to say, all the reasons Mashiro should go back to painting regardless of what reasons Rita gave, or have you already decided that Mashiro should stay the course because it's what she wants now?

Indeed, I do believe Mashiro should stay on the course she has decided for herself. It's important to her as a person, and may even be essential to her ability to function as an artist. Art isn't a mathematical equation, you can't force it out of someone, even more likely in the case of someone as unorthodox as Mashiro. As Sorata already realized back in episode 3, she thinks differently compared to what many would consider the "norm", thus things that may seem important to you may not matter to her at all.

Now the question is, are you willing to accept that? That Mashiro doesn't share your values, and that forcing them upon her won't lead to a better result for her, in the things she cares about? Or are you saying that her way of thinking can't be correct and that she should go back to the drawing board until her answers match those you want her to arrive to?

Of course Mashiro should stay true to her decisions, based on her values, not on those of others. It's an absolute no brainer question from where I see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is the crux of our disagreement. It is here that I think you veer at least a step too far into a hyper-individualistic philosophy in which each of us might as well be an island.

Do I think that Shiina has a responsibility to be a painter? That she has to do that? No.

But do I think that she has a responsibility to carefully consider the impact that her talents can have for both herself and the world at large? Yes, I do.

That ought to "enter into the equation". It should be a factor in her decision. Does it need to be the decisive factor? No, but it should be a factor at least.

It is the absolute heights of selfishness and self-centered thinking for a person gifted with great talent to not even take some time to consider what their talents could mean for the world. Furthermore, a person who doesn't take the time to consider this may well end up hurting himself/herself in the long run, for reasons that wontaek has made clear before on this thread.

Shiina owes it not only to her fans, and not only to the art world, but also to herself, to really think about what she can do with her talents, and what is the best use of them. That should at least "enter into the equation" for what she chooses to do with them.

I guess we can only agree to disagree then, because it seems we see things here from angles that are polar opposites of one another. I disagree that she owes anything to anyone. Not to her would-be fans, not the Art world, no one, only to herself. I truly believe it's the epitome of selfishness from the side of the fans and the art world to believe they are entitled to benefit from Mashiro's talents. From where I see it, that's a simple act of attempted coercion through weight of numbers.

And who is to say that she hasn't considered it, but simply arrived to the answer that her own needs take precedence? Or maybe she didn't, because perhaps it didn't matter to her in the first place - she could have been drawing for herself all along. She doesn't owe that consideration to anyone but herself. And there isn't any right or wrong answer here, either is a valid one. Of course one might not be one that Mashiro's fans would prefer, but they will just have to accept that. They have no right to demand more. That's not their decision to make, nor their place to pressure her in to making a favorable one for them. And the impression I get there is that some aren't willing to accept the answer that Mashiro wants to stay away from painting for now. That she somehow hasn't considered enough and should go back to considering some more. Until she reaches a decision that satisfies them, obviously.

So yeah, I think we can only agree to disagree here. I can only see the suggestion that Mashiro's life should be influenced by her fans to any degree as the ultimate expression of selfishness and self-entitlement, because there really isn't any higher to go on that scale than to demand of someone to structure their life for the benefit of others, even if said person doesn't want that. My sensibilities simply don't agree with that on a fundamental level. If she wants to do it, then fine. If not, then that's her choice to make without feeling persecuted by "fans".

I guess we can only agree to disagree then, because it seems we see things here from angles that are polar opposites of one another.

No, our positions are not polar opposites.

Your position is essentially that Shiina should only care about her own wants, period (i.e. she should only care about others to the degree that she wants to care about them, so that becomes just an extension of her own wants).

That's obviously a very selfish and self-centered attitude for any person to take, in my opinion. It's decidedly cold and uncaring, completely lacking in true empathy.

My position is that Shiina's own wants are important, but that a balanced life includes considering the good you can do for others, and at least factoring that into your decisions.

That's not the polar opposite to your position. The polar opposite to your position would be arguing that Shiina should only care about others, and not care about herself at all. And I'm not arguing that.

So to be frank, my view is that your position is very extremist, while mine isn't. They're not polar opposites.

Personally, I don't think Rita is being manipulative or wrong in any way but neither do I think someone should have to be obliged to consider the rest of the world regarding whether she wants to make use of her talents.

First, Rita is freaking hot. Just wanted to get that out of my system (maybe).

Secondly, it really is not her business, with regards to Mashiro's. Mashiro does what she does; and that is the end of it.

Thirdly, if Rita happens to be Mashiro's former boss or agent, then Mashiro's talents becomes her business. However, I am doubtful of this scenario.

I'm a bit baffled here because I've gone back and read the thread and I can't find where Chaos2Frozen made such a statement.

Chaos2Frozen Post 36 where it started.
"For people who are thinking that Mashiro should be allow to do whatever she wants; Let me give you have simple analogy to consider.

Say for example you created one of the greatest survival horror video game series of all time, and your loyal fans have been following you for years and years.

Then all of a sudden you decide to change that series into an action-oriented game without considering what anybody thinks- Are you telling me that your long time fans have no reason to get angry and demand that you go back to your ‘roots’ ? "
Where he tried tojust"

Post 41 wher I asked him if he really belives that she should not be allowed.
"You really believe that people should not be allowed to do what they want?"

Since then he avoided to answere my question and was always talking around the bush. And with every post he made he gave me the impression that he really believes it.

And I asked him a couple of times but he still avoided to answer that question till now and he finally admitted that it's up to her how she wants to live her life. End of this topic. At least for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, everybody else is irrelevant. The only person Shiina should care at all about is herself. Gotcha.

Nonsense. What she should do and what not is up to her and not for me, for you or for anyone else to decide. That it's her own life and that only she herself has the right to decide to do what she wants with it, is the absolut most important thing. In comparsion to that, other things like expections from other people are completely irrelevant

Chaos2Frozen Post 36 where it started.
"For people who are thinking that Mashiro should be allow to do whatever she wants; Let me give you have simple analogy to consider.

Oh my freaking god thats what you were whining about all this time?!

It's a one off statement I used to get people to think about the other side of this argument! In which case the point is that actions have consequences whether you consider them fair or not! You can't just do whatever you want without thinking that there's some kind of backlash. Had you not been so caught up in your blind righteousness you might be able to objectively see that instead if taking it as some declaration against freedom crap.

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