The women should take a long march, perhaps a death march, to leave the country. It's certainly better than living with them. Certain peoples don't deserve women be present amongst themselves. Leave those men making love to each other.

Mine was a sarcastic joke, yours was a serious statement against all Egyptians.

..Just like all the others who are making derogatory racist statements about an entire country.

It's sickening how people can just be racist to entire Arab countries on these forums.

I have travelled over there when I was younger and although I would never go there in the current climate I wouldn't be so idiotic as to insult all the people from many (if not all) of the Arab countries as being savages and below me.

Mine was a sarcastic joke, yours was a serious statement against all Egyptians.

..Just like all the others who are making derogatory racist statements about an entire country.

It's sickening how people can just be racist to entire Arab countries on these forums.

I have travelled over there when I was younger and although I would never go there in the current climate I wouldn't be so idiotic as to insult all the people from many (if not all) of the Arab countries as being savages and below me.

When people make statements about a culture that are more or less the actual truth, I'm not sure how you can consider it racist. I live in the most liberal muslim country there is, and the culture is more or less the same here. Not quite to the same degree as it is in Egypt, but the men generally feel a sense of entitlement when it comes to women.

For example, except in the major foreign tourist areas, if a woman wears a bikini on the beach, and gets raped because of it, the perpetrator gets a light sentence because of "extreme provocation". And, although it isn't the law like it is in some arab countries, a man who rapes a virgin can pretty much get off the hook by buying the marriage rights to the girl from her family.

And, don't get me started on "honor killings". Suffice to say that a man has free rein to have sex with as many women as he wants, even when he's married. But, a woman who marries a man her parents don't approve first can easily end up gunned down in the streets by her own brothers and uncles.

Those aren't racist views, they are views on the fact that the culture in this neck of the woods assigns no rights whatsoever to women, while men can pretty much do as they please. Yes, there are plenty of good people in this country, and the culture is slowly changing. But, away from the westernized cities, the thought processes are identical to those of the Egyptian men. And, I see examples of that mindset every day in the local news.

That's not saying they are savages, or even cruel people. They are just brought up to believe that women are property to be owned, and once owned, to be treated as the owner sees fit. And, if they want to do something to someone else's property, as long as they are willing to pay the amount of money required, then it's accepted behavior. The women have almost no say whatsoever, especially if the girl is single, the man has money, and the parents are of the same old-fashioned mind set. And, since that same mind set is prevalent in every arab country, it's not racist to say that they have that mind set and carry it with them wherever they go.

Mine was a sarcastic joke, yours was a serious statement against all Egyptians.

..Just like all the others who are making derogatory racist statements about an entire country.

It's sickening how people can just be racist to entire Arab countries on these forums.

Quote:

Not to try and be racist but I knew some Egyptian males who lived in Australia and believed they had the right to take what they desired

Can you even read??????????????????????
Did you not see the part about I KNEW.....

Stay off my back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've had many neighbours, workmates and colleagues who were middle eastern (Egypt, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Palestine and the list goes on) and never had a problem with them, actually, some are still very close friends!

Mine was a sarcastic joke, yours was a serious statement against all Egyptians.

..Just like all the others who are making derogatory racist statements about an entire country.

It's sickening how people can just be racist to entire Arab countries on these forums.

I have travelled over there when I was younger and although I would never go there in the current climate I wouldn't be so idiotic as to insult all the people from many (if not all) of the Arab countries as being savages and below me.

Mate, no offense, but you interpret what you want to interpret. I've read what you've read. And I say you're overreacting.

If you really want to play the racist card, put your money where your mouth is and point out where G13 was racist then. Otherwise, would you kindly keep that farce of a selfrighteous act to your own before calling someone names.

Edit:
And come to think of, when reading your last line. Some facts that shows the other side of Egypt which you conveniently left out:

And this is not only Egypt. Same story for Turkey, Marocco, Iran, Saudi Arabia where women rights are extremely low and male domination is extremely high. This has got nothing to do with racism. It's just the way the cultures are that way, just like most of Europe used to be.

I give a damn about the middle east and the west. The way for the two to co exist is for the middle east to progress past the fanaticism that leads to all this terrorism and past the archaic cultural problems, both of which are constantly re-affirmed by their leaders. For the west the people need to wake up and stop letting their leaders convince them it is ok to invade, terrorise and plunder from the middle east.

But if all that either side says against the other is derogatory and not the slightest bit balanced all we are going to get is more death.

Gandolph13
Sorry I misread what you were saying, that was my mistake. It stemmed from being pissed off at never hearing anyone balance their negative statements about middle eastern people but regardless was inexcusable.

Having heard soo many people talk rubbish about the middle eastern peoples and having seen what the effect of the (often unquestionably racist) media has done to the current generation of people in the middle east, I can sometimes be quick to judge.

Quote: Originally Posted by L1b3rta

I couldn't have explained it better Adanaliyik. :)

Mate, no offense, but you interpret what you want to interpret. I've read what you've read. And I say you're overreacting.

If you really want to play the racist card, put your money where your mouth is and point out where G13 was racist then. Otherwise, would you kindly keep that farce of a selfrighteous act to your own before calling someone names.

Edit:
And come to think of, when reading your last line. Some facts that shows the other side of Egypt which you conveniently left out:

And this is not only Egypt. Same story for Turkey, Marocco, Iran, Saudi Arabia where women rights are extremely low and male domination is extremely high. This has got nothing to do with racism. It's just the way the cultures are that way, just like most of Europe used to be.

I didn't conveniently leave anything out, don't come up with crap like that. I am fully aware of the major issues facing the middle east that stem from cultural heritage.

I said where I thought Gandolph13 was being racist, what that is (unlike your rubbish) is a reasoned statement. I can apologise if I make a mistake in my reasoning but you are the one just talking self-righteous rubbish.

Oh and If I you had just said I was over reacting I would not have taken offence but putting words in my mouth of course is going to piss me off.

@Adanaliyik

I don't know where you live but I know many people that live in the middle east (including in Saudi) that are very forward thinking, are against much of the draconian laws and certainly wouldn't ever condone for honour killings. I know families that have had their kids marry out of Islam as well and have daughters and mothers who are major professionals. Although all these things have come at major prices and in no way make life easy for them there are many like them and change is happening.

Things in the middle east are more complex then many westerners know. It can often be harder to see this if all you have is an outside perspective and the media (both sides) to glean from. I would be interested to know what kind of relationship you have with this middle eastern country you live in, because living as a white man in some affluent area of Dubai is not really going to teach you about the middle east (not saying that is where you live but just a point).

Anyway I just hope people can learn to get along without hating and killing each other so much but I suppose that may be too much of a big ask.

I didn't conveniently leave anything out, don't come up with crap like that. I am fully aware of the major issues facing the middle east that stem from cultural heritage.

I said where I thought Gandolph13 was being racist, what that is (unlike your rubbish) is a reasoned statement. I can apologise if I make a mistake in my reasoning but you are the one just talking self-righteous rubbish.

Oh and If I you had just said I was over reacting I would not have taken offence but putting words in my mouth of course is going to piss me off.

Sorry if it came across that I was putting words in your mouth, that wasn't my intention, but I'm not hesitant to hold back my opinion as how I see something at that time. Especially if the racist or xenophobic or anti-semetic card is being drawn when someone genuinely speaks from his own experiences and facts.

As for me and my rubbish, you can call it what you will, I'd rather name it facts as that's what I only base my perspective of. That I said that several middle eastern countries have got issues with women rights, doesn't mean that all of said countries are horrible & worthless. I could've name the nice things about the countries to 'balance my opinion', but that's not what the topic is about.

If there's something good about the countries you feel affectioned to, fine, post it and I'll back it up if I can. But I'm not holding back if a discussion is started about a big issue that lingers in a country of which I already knew is a big problem overthere, or overhere. As that would contradict my view of free speech.

"As for me and my rubbish, you can call it what you will, I'd rather name it facts"

Putting words in my mouth is not facts (that is what I clearly called rubbish).

You were putting words in my mouth in the original post I responded to. As I said, I conveniently left out nothing, my argument was against racism toward people from the middle east. Whether my argument stemmed from a mistaken impression of someone does not change the fact that you cannot counter it by saying "but there are plenty of others who are bad".

I then went on to say that at least my accusation was based on an acknowledged somewhat understandable mistake, the rubbish you went on implied that I was arguing that women didn't in general have terrible rights in the middle east.

Now in this new post you go on to new baseless insults against me, as if I have said talking about the negative aspects of the middle east is rubbish and should not be allowed, which again is complete nonsense. I mentioned that I would like to see a balance view for once and then even went on to say this is inexcusable as reasoning to be unhappy with a solely negative view (I think most would agree with this). What I said was completely different to what you wish to make out I said/implied.

I accused someone of being racist because I miss interpreted what they said, I then apologised. There is no way you can justify or even find a trace of the insulting rubbish you put in my mouth with anything I have said...

...And where in the hell did I try to contradict your free speech <face palm>

I'm getting so tired of this. I've been trying to let this come to a decent end of mutal understanding, but still there is this atmosphere of animosity.

First, please state clearly with a quote, of which part of my original reply, where you thought I was putting words in your mouth.
Second, please state clearly with a quote, of which part of my original reply, you refer to with "my rubbish".

Because I've noticed you switch subjects attached to certain words when you're wording your frustration. And I hope you understand it is confusing as hell and it is stopping me from propperly formulating which assumption is wrong and which is not.

Quote: Originally Posted by cazmajor

Now in this new post you go on to new baseless insults against me, as if I have said talking about the negative aspects of the middle east is rubbish and should not be allowed, which again is complete nonsense. I mentioned that I would like to see a balance view for once and then even went on to say this is inexcusable as reasoning to be unhappy with a solely negative view (I think most would agree with this). What I said was completely different to what you wish to make out I said/implied.

Come on Caz, be a bit reasonable here. Where did I insult you in my last post? Where did I state or imply in my last post

Quote:

as if I have said talking about the negative aspects of the middle east is rubbish and should not be allowed

?

And again, you want a 'balanced arguement' in a discussion. But what you are then basically asking is political correctness. And that is not my nature, nor where believe in when having an honest and open discussion. Warning: this statement is not meant as an insult. Not every statement that describes something related to a person is an insult. Its up to you if you're willing to believe me that I'm sincere on this.

Again, when I state something, I state it how I exactly see it and c'est ša. That's what I meant with "free speech". Though I admit you're right, the way I worded "free speech" did sound stupid. I should've worded it differently. What I meant to say was, "free to talk as the way you see & feel about a subject and not needing to word it differently to please the other".

Quote: Originally Posted by cazmajor

I accused someone of being racist because I miss interpreted what they said, I then apologised. There is no way you can justify or even find a trace of the insulting rubbish you put in my mouth with anything I have said...

...And where in the hell did I try to contradict your free speech <face palm>

I'm confused. Since you bold marked "I then apologized", did you think that I didn't acknowledge your apology? Because if that's what's bothering than I can assure you I held no grudge on that subject anymore after your apology to Gandolph.

As it says right under my name, I live in Turkey, so that's the country I used in my example. And, as my nick implies, I live in the city of Adana, which is in the south east not far from Syria. I've been to other countries, like Saudi, but I left them out because I wasn't there long enough to form an opinion. But, I've lived here for almost 23 years, so my opinion is valid. Also, I stopped being a white man in an Arab world over 10 years ago, since I more or less act like the locals.

But, one thing I've kept is my feelings towards women, and they don't match the general opinion in this society. Yes, the western areas and the big cities have a more modern view, but even that's changing. The current government is pushing this country in a more fundamentalist direction, and may end up like Iran if it keeps going.

My quotes on the subject were based on experience. Women here are treated worse, in general, than women were treated in the US in the 40's and 50's. It's not as oppressive as Saudi, where women are not allowed out without a male family member, and must always be completely covered in public. But, women here are still second class citizens without the same rights as men. I don't mean the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment) type of rights, I'm talking about how there are legal things women can't do. Not because it's against the law for them to do them, but because the old conservative crowd still runs things.

For example, if a woman wants to buy a house in her name, they turn her away and tell her to come back with her husband, or if she doesn't have one, to bring her father or brother. She has the legal right to buy one, but the authorities won't deal with her because she's a woman. Oh, she can raise enough of a stink that it will eventually get resolved. And, the authorities will deny that they ever told her she couldn't do it. But their first reaction is always to make her get a male to speak for her because she's only a woman.

As for "honor killings", I know more about them than I want to (story for another time). No, they are not legal, I never said they were. But the killers always get lighter sentences, because after all, they only killed a woman, and a dishonored one at that. You kill a man in a drunken brawl, you get 10 years in prison. You gun a woman down in the middle of the street, in cold blood, you get 5 years max. And, if she was a relative, who was not married but no longer a virgin, you'll probably only get 2 or 3 years.

And, as I mentioned in my other comments, if you rape a girl, all you have to do is buy her marriage from her family, and you don't go to jail. It doesn't matter if the girl doesn't want to marry you. If you pay the family what they want, she marries you or she dies like a dog in the street. You read about it every day in the newspaper, another girl killed because she ran away instead of marrying who her family told her to marry. Headlines like "16 year old girl killed for running away from 60 year old husband".

Women who divorce their husbands, regardless of the reason, are shunned by society. Women who complain about men grabbing them in public are ignored, unless they are famous or rich people. Women who get beaten to a pulp by their husbands, run to the police station, only to have the police call their husbands and tell them where to come pick up their wife. I could go on and on, but my point is that women here only have the rights their fathers or husbands allow them to have. Some places in Turkey are more open, some places less. But in all of them, the undercurrent is still there, and the men take that attitude with them when they travel.

I'm sorry if this doesn't match your view of middle eastern society. But this is the reality. And, Turkey is the most modern and liberal of all the middle eastern countries. Dubai and Bahrain (spent 10 months there) may seem very liberal, but that's because they cater to westerners. Their actual society is even more strict and more oppressive to women than here. And, it goes down hill quickly from there. How do I know? Because women are constantly running to this country, if they can, so they will be treated better by society. If this place is as bad as it is, and women are coming here to escape, how much worse is it where they're from?

Or, do I have to give examples about the religious police in Saudi and Iran? Or the forced marriages of 12 year old girls? Or, the bottom of the barrel, the Taliban regime in Afghanistan that's slowly coming back into power?

I agree, there are good people in every one of these countries, people who know it's wrong to treat women as possessions who have no rights of their own. But when 80% of the country still believes that way, the 20% good people can only open pockets of resistance. The countries overall still have the same attitudes towards women, and they take them wherever they go...

Sad and despicable. While I did not play any part in this woeful behaviour towards women, sitting here all comfortable in my lounge chair; I cannot help but feel frustrated and a little guilty that all I can do is whine about it.

When I interact with someone else for the first time, I don't care who you are. Your gender, your sexual preference, where you come from. I don't care if you have 8 arms, are purple and look like a blue ringed octopus.
If you consistently behave like and ass, then it's real simple. You are one.

I judge people on the Sum of their actions, their choices.

Sexism to me, with the exception of the influence of some fundamental biological tendencies, seems to be more of a case of hiding fear and feelings of inadequacy.

Or... is a means or excuse to justify someones true nature.

Racism to me is pretty much the same thing without the excuse of gender.

I KNOW its wrong to steal, to kill, to treat others unfairly. Why? Because it just IS. I feel it in my gut. My stepfather used to beat the crap out of me and my brothers, yet I don't go around, smashing things, picking fights, raping, stealing, killing. Was my stepfather acting out because HE was badly treated? NO...he was simply a bastard.

No excuses. YOU ARE THE SUM OF YOUR CHOICES.

Just my opinion

Edit -

Sorry, I should have made comment on what Adanaliyik had to say. Like SteveJones7, I found it to very educational, though also tragic. It is particularly good to hear the thoughts from someone who is very close to the situation with firsthand experience as the benefit of insight is very important and much appreciated.