I think its very rude to shake someones hand and at the same time hold your stomach as if to fight back the gut-retching vomit. very poor etiquette. What would Emily Post say?

4:47 pm August 22, 2008

The Ole Professor wrote:

What a shame that St. Louis University needs to add two puff courses to get their students through law school. It is a continuation of the watering down of the U.S. system of education. Those law students, who have not learned table manners in high school or at home, should be able to engage in individual reading to learn these nonlegal skills. Do they also offer remedial reading? Perhaps the "women's studies" majors get advanced placement?

5:11 pm August 22, 2008

older professor wrote:

"to always rest the blade of a knife needs to face towards you"

When she finishes with the students maybe she can teach you how to proof read, and not split an infinitive.

Does a left-handed person shake hands with the right or left hand? If left, does he wear his name tag on the left lapel? Life just gets harder and harder as more is learned about the universe.

5:24 pm August 22, 2008

anon wrote:

Food gets stuck in my teeth. Not my fault. What do I do?

6:14 pm August 22, 2008

Anon #2 wrote:

Comment to The Ole Professor: You probably would be the very first one to comment on young attorneys' lack of manners. Perhaps you need a refresher course on manners and etiquette yourself? Remember what your mother (should have)taught you: If you can't say something nice, don't say anything.

6:35 pm August 22, 2008

The Ole Professor wrote:

Anon #2 - As a tribute to my mother, God rest her soul, I will resist saying anything about your momma.

6:42 pm August 22, 2008

Billiken-Buster wrote:

Dan - a Billiken, according to Wikipedia, "... sprang from the height of the "Mind-Cure" craze in the United States at the start of the Twentieth Century. It represented the 'no worry' ideal." Seeing the Buddah-like bronzed Billiken, which graces the St. Louis University campus, can't help but give pause. Why, pray tell, would a Jesuit college permit an "idol" on its campus?

6:53 pm August 22, 2008

marketing marekting marketing wrote:

It looks like the logo you would pick if you held a concession selling mushrooms to college kids.

9:00 pm August 22, 2008

Anon wrote:

Like, you know, I always points the knife blade aways from me, in case I has to defend myself and my eats from grabby homeboys.

9:29 pm August 22, 2008

St. Ignatius wrote:

The Billikens were originally known as the St. Louis "Blue and White". The Blue and White, in 1906, executed the first legal forward pass. The Jesuit college's aerial assault led them to an undefeated season.

9:34 pm August 22, 2008

Elijah wrote:

Perhaps the Billiken is the modern version of Ba'al, and is St. Louis University the Sodom & Gomorrah of legal education?

9:35 pm August 22, 2008

St. Thomas Beckett wrote:

That explains the "Sodomy and You: For Lawyers" course.

11:23 pm August 22, 2008

LawGuy wrote:

These types of classes tend to be common among lower-ranked schools. Making a clear line of sight to your name tag will do nothing more than make it easier for the person to see you went to some third tier toilet. Cutting your chicken as you go will not make up for the fact that you made it onto a law review that no one reads.

11:37 am August 23, 2008

Shouldn't Have Gone into IRAC wrote:

Hensley is sexy for a woman in her 60s....she looks a lot like Cindy McCain (whose maiden name is Hensley too, I believe).

12:27 pm August 23, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

I don't know if I'd trust this course: “I’m in my 60s, and I learned so much [about manners] my freshman year in college in Idaho,” she says...

2:24 pm August 23, 2008

anonymous wrote:

the student in the picture is pretty cute as well...

4:26 pm August 23, 2008

Third Tier Toilet wrote:

Law Guy - why all the put-downs??? You seem a bit angry...

7:11 pm August 23, 2008

CRAZY BORED LOOSER wrote:

Hi hoooowdy hooooo! I have nothing better to do than leave dumb messages on this site and complain about things. I love complaining about things and putting other people down!!!!! Lets all act like idiots and spend less time with our family and friends and complain about things FOREVER!!!!!!!

8:45 pm August 23, 2008

SLU Alum wrote:

Lots of drunk students have peed on that bronze billiken -- or tried to, it sits at shoulder height.

8:48 pm August 23, 2008

LawGuy is an Idiot wrote:

But I do question the value of these types of courses. It's certainly important to be polite and have basic manners when interacting with people (especially prospective employers and colleagues), but can there really be a right and wrong way to cut your chicken? Will you suddenly become a pariah if you wear your name tag on the other side of your chest than what they suggest?

These types of courses seem to teach etiquette from an absolutist viewpoint, and that's just silly.

11:51 pm August 23, 2008

REALITY CHECK wrote:

It appears this course is part of a program to help people with interviewing and polishing manners. I fail to see the harm in any of this. So many people seem to be dumb enough to think that this lady only gives small pointers such as eating tips and nametage advice.
The editorial person who wrote this bad story should have spent more time highlighting other unique things that the career office at SLU is doing to help law students.

1:10 am August 24, 2008

Real Reality Check wrote:

Career offices at law schools do not do unique things. It is hardly unique to tell a graduating student that his $100,000 plus law school debt will take years to pay off, that the labor market is saturated with out of work lawyers and that you don't need etiquette lessons to eat takeout from the dollar menu at McDonald's.

1:56 pm August 24, 2008

THE TRUTH HURTS wrote:

As you can see from this last message all of the "HATERS" leaving bad feedback are out of work law students who can not find work or angry about their own failure to find a job. Let me get out my violin and sing a sad song for all the people that wanted to become lawyers. Sounds like alot of sour grapes to me. To quote a famous poker expression "The hand that is dealt you is determinism; thou the way you play it is free will.

3:14 pm August 24, 2008

Michael wrote:

My law school had a one day seminar on manners. The admin felt it was necessary because many of the kids coming straight out of college had the manners of a buffalo and would embarrass themselves in their clerkships. Sadly, it was optional, and many of the people who probably needed it, opted instead to rely on their past experience to get them by. Sad, sad, sad.

6:33 pm August 24, 2008

FRanz Kafka wrote:

I am befuddled about the propriety of belching in public; a loud belch accompanied immediately after w a smile or guffaw should be permissible. This also seems to be the case if one expertly makes the burp as loud as possible, even to the point of scaring someone nearby. It would seem that any violation of a staid outdated rule of etiquette is enveloped by the fear or sheer volume.

9:32 pm August 24, 2008

Southern Lady wrote:

Having been a high school teacher for many years, I can tell you that many social institutions-such as home, school, religion-have let our students down in many ways. The teaching of good manners is clearly one of one of those ways. Teachers often must return to basics in this area by teaching how to politely ask a question, challenge an idea, greet someone, say "please" and "thank you," etc. It doesn't surprise me that there is room for this type of seminar. ALL of us should pay more attention to these areas. I KNOW some of these bloggers need the very help they are decrying. I say "Bravo" to Mrs. Hensley for providing this polishing of manners!

10:53 pm August 24, 2008

George Hussein Onyango Obama wrote:

I'm just honked off that I got a C- in the course on name-tag placement.

11:21 am August 25, 2008

James Diamon, SLU law, 1L wrote:

Can i clarify something? No one was graded on this course, it was just a fun and meaningful activity. IT WAS OPTIONAL. So for anyone who has slammed the law school's curriculum on the basis of this etiquette course-your argument is severely lacking.

1:37 pm August 25, 2008

marymary wrote:

A lot of schools have these types of events. It does not reflect well on the profession or society's concern for decent behavior, but, if only for purely selfish reasons, I would rather have the schools put the students on notice of what is expected than not. And in light of the self esteem movement's focus on developing strong habits of personal narcissism, to the extent that this course makes students "feel good" about themselves, it should be a hit.

1:41 pm August 25, 2008

anon wrote:

When you say things like "your argument is severely lacking," you sound like a 1L.

3:24 pm August 25, 2008

Don't be misled wrote:

There seems to be a lot of confusion in the comment section of this blog, or perhaps it's just ignorance. This activity is not a class. It's open to all students, there are no grades assigned, and does not appear anywhere on a transcript. It is simply to help students during interviews or, at the very least, have a free lunch.

3:27 pm August 25, 2008

The Ole Professor wrote:

To James Diamon - You are not doing yourself any favors. If this remedial table manners course was "optional", and you opted to take it, what does that say about you? Does that mean that your table manners are "severely lacking?"

3:28 pm August 25, 2008

Rielle wrote:

What's next, a hairdressing seminar taught by John Edwards?"

5:41 pm August 25, 2008

Anny wrote:

Law school is a way for the socially retarded to obtain status. No amount of coursework in manners as we typically understand it will endow these people with tact. Rename the course "Social Protocol of the Important" and you will see results.

10:57 am August 26, 2008

Law School Career Services Dean wrote:

Would that arrogant "Ole Professor" had been faced with a humongous stuffed artichoke during his tenure review meal! Anyone, including law students, who can admit to having something more to learn will do so and, in the students’ cases, be better prepared to meet their future employers. No one said they had to cut classes to learn the social behaviors they will be expected to demonstrate during their careers. Harrumph! I hope "Ole Snob" is stupefied by the artichoke at his son's wedding!

3:19 pm August 26, 2008

Ex ante wrote:

When I was a 2L, I went on an interview and naively allowed one of the senior associates to order for me. He pretended that he was making a recommendation as to what was good. He ordered spagetti and watched me try to eat it, and answer questions, w/o getting any on my cream-colored blouse. Granted, I shouldn't have allowed myself to be tricked, or at least should have practiced eating spaghetti ahead of time (not my fav), but when all else fails, it's good to have a basic skill set of good manners to fall back on. Having said that ... the comments here are hilarious!

12:40 pm August 27, 2008

-- wrote:

Let me clarify the following facts:

First, SLU law has been, and continues to be, a second tier school with the number one ranked health law program in the country.

Second, just like others from second tier schools, the top 15% of our graduates are employed by top firms throughout the country.

Third, we do not have "fluff" classes. The class was optional. I know many people that attended "top 20" schools that are painfully socially inept. Although thes people are wonderful as workhorse doc review associates, they quickly have been "let go" before they are partnered because they tend to scare clients away.

Finally, as you type hateful blogs as this is your sad little way to let your anger be known, people from SLU are gainfully employed in Saint Louis, D.C., Chicago and NYC. So please, while we work at our firms during the day, keep your comments coming. Your shining, warm personality has clearly helped you to get a wonderful job: full-time blogging.

It is hard to believe that SLU would be considered even Tier 2. The Bar passage rates are below the percentage of all-takers of both the Missouri and California bars. Only 91% of graduates are employed within nine months of graduation. SLU grads are employed in only 21 states. No one fails out after the second year. More students transfer out, than transfer in. Part time students constitute 25% of total students. And of the list of “notable” alumni, the only name recognizable outside of Missouri is David Merrick, who did not practice law, for any appreciable period, but was famous in the theater. So – I would say – bottom of T3, if that.

2:51 pm August 28, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

although it's wonderful that you feel as though rankings are a creation of your own methodology, but they are actually calaulated and orginated with US News and world report:

I beg you, please get a life, and preferably one not in argumentation.

7:26 pm August 28, 2008

Puppy Shark wrote:

What harm does it do to teach people how to shake hands, eat with the correct fork, or to stand presentably. I see nothing wrong with it. It seems to me that the comments on here reflect an attitude that one should already know these things by the time they get to law school. That may be true, but budding lawyers come from many backgrounds, and some might not have had the opportunities to learn such valuable life skills.

Perhaps, it is the elitist attitude that is perpetuated by highly competitive and overly ambitious law students, the legal education system, and professionals who cannot fully wrap their brain around the importance of the art of propriety.

Propriety is of the utmost importance in the legal profession. It will determine how clients view you, how others view you, and how you view yourself.

Which brings me to the real issue, and the reason I chose to leave a comment. Look at what you are writing on here. What does it reflect about you? Maybe, a little finishing would do you some good? How much of the negativity reflected in these comments is your own arrogance and insecurity?

Often we hide behind anger to cover our own insecurities. We choose to generalize and categorize people into tiers of importance and intelligence. It stands to be said, there is nothing more detrimental to a legal career than putting a person into a tier, judging them by a background, or an opportunity gained or lost.

And specifically for the person who is carrying on about first tiered third tiered second tiered whatever law schools:

I know many great attorneys. I have been honored to watch them in courthouses in many parts of this country. I have seen a first tier graduate fall miserably to a third tier, and vice versa. It has no bearing on your ability to practice law. The only thing a top tier gives a student is opportunities, and opportunities can be made by anyone with any inkling of ambition.

There is entirely too much emphasis put on competition in the legal education system. I am happy to see a school making a move to teach something important, like how to be polite.

3:18 pm August 29, 2008

Proud to be at SLU School of Law wrote:

I took this optional seminar, and it has been extremely informative. I have never been in a setting where I even need to think about some of the topics Ms. Hensley has taught us. My parents taught me manners, but even they would not emphasize how to behave politely while in social situations pertaining to a professional career.
It hasn't all been about which way to point your knife while at a business meal.

In response to Ole Professor's comment that if you go to this seminar it says something negative about your manners, I would say that unfortunately the opposite is true. Those of us who care enough about behaving well in social or business situations did attend this seminar to refresh our manners or learn knew things. It tends to be those who should take this course that don't because they don't give manners a very high priority.

I also am completely happy with my education thus far at St. Louis University School of Law. This school offers its students many opportunities to have successful careers. My professors are all extremely knowledgable in their fields of expertise and how to teach their complicated subjects.

I am very lucky to have someone like Ms. Hensley, and the entire Career Services department at SLU School of Law for that matter, be so caring and helpful about each of the students that comes through here.

11:27 pm August 29, 2008

Joe Biden wrote:

Puppy Shark - Spoken like a true blue graduate of a Tier Four Law School. At least you didn't stoop so low as to drop the names of all those "great attorneys", with whom you rub elbows. If you have to be taught to be polite, it probably won't take.

2:44 am August 30, 2008

Puppy Shark wrote:

Joe- You have nice penmanship. I see no need to drop names, you wouldn't know them anyway. They obviously are not of your caliber.

1:11 pm August 30, 2008

Joe Biden wrote:

Puppy - How bout a brewski down at Duke's? You can teach me how to hold my pinky finger out, whilest swiggin' a pint. Let me know, before I have to take the Acela back to DE.

11:57 am September 2, 2008

You Make Me Ashamed To Be A Grad of a Top Tier School wrote:

For all of you white shoe lawyers who have savaged the effort made by this law school to make their grads more marketable and, at the same time, reminded us all why people despise lawyers regardless of their law school's pedigree I offer the link below to an interesting article. In the interests of full disclosure, after graduating from a top 15 law school I punted the practice of law a long time ago and climbed as high up in the ivory tower of academia as I could get. I'm interested in your opinions as to whether getting divorced, depressed, and dissatisfied with your life is any more fun in a plush office on the 75th floor of Class A office space than in a store front office overlooking a parking lot.

I'd love to meet up for a Brewski, but I don't live anywhere near you. Perhaps if you are ever in town.

6:06 pm September 3, 2008

YaleLawStudentwOpinion wrote:

I expect/hope that at this point (too tired to read every comment) this issue has been cleared up. The etiquette courses or not really courses but rather an hour long presentation that Hensley gives. Further, as for the comments on the program itself it's important to remember that there isn't a cotillion exam to get into professional schools and as I'm sure many of you know, law firms when looking for associates are looking for those that are socially and academically intelligent. Is it possible that a law school is taking an interest in the future of its students? Seems to be.

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