nathon didnt mind chopping the bolts on mine and shannons 4 pitch of mirage.then finishing our route while we were ban from doing new routes shull talked nathan in to finishing a route jerry roberts abandonded because as he said it was going to have more bolts than it was worth". like a good boy nathan let shull play him for a fool.before he even started shannon and i told nathon shull was using him. because shannon and i did a direct finish to groover. which was going to be shulls last pitch. of the route he picked out for his self before anyone else was allowed to apply for routes. then he wont even finish it.so Nathon contrives yet another route not daring to finish shulls route thats been sitting for 7 years. good job Nathon.

Not only are Wayne's comments accurate, he was kinder than I will be. Nathan not only stole our route, chop our bolts, and took a hammer to two critical gear placements maring the stone for eaternity. He also took his hammer to a crux quartz crystal on the first pitch! I met Nathan in the parking lot and tried to talk to him like a man about giving the next generation the same opportunity we had but he was not interested. So if Nathan has someone or something to replay with I rest my case!

I find it disingenuous in the extreme for a case to be made for 'giving the next generation the same opportunity we had' by the only two climbers who did not abide by the bolting moratorium established in the days following the LK purchase. In effect securing the plummest lines while all the other players who ponied up cash and elbow grease were voluntarily left sitting on the sidelines. Let's please not rehash this drama. No one gave less to the LK project than the self-identified parties above or garnered more. I can't speak to the heavy handed tactics NB is accused of (in the years we climbed together however, I never saw any such tactics employed) but I can't sit idly by and let such a twisting of history go without some attempt at setting the record straight.

The fact that neither of you 'tards can recall which CCC folks removed/chopped your routes clearly highlights your insufficient brain power. And to accuse me of defacing the rock is absurd. Not to mention, thinking that I could care enough about your routes (or anything else that you've done) to chop your bolts or deface a hold is ridiculous. Don't flatter yourselves so much...

By the way, this nonsense has nothing to do with the the Dike Hike - Monster Groove route anyway.

Ok nathan you say my story is not accurate. then tell the real story.dont just say im wrong. you chopped the bolt off pitch 4. i didnt say you chopped the whole route.the clowns that chopped it, did it top down because they couldnt climb it. and they missed the forth pitch. shull told you about the route then u called roberts . u told me that yourself.i talked to u before u started the route .u said u would not finish on our route.i didnt say u broke holds or the tri cam placement.and having climbed with you i dont think u did. but someone that climbed the route did.One of the cheering squad i guess.

ed that sounds real good. But shannon and i have logged more trail hours spent more money on bolts our money not ccc money. and most importantly kept u punks from have your own private wall that yall can pick and choose who does the routes. the new route commity didnt make that wall what it is.all you cheerleaders together have not done as much for north carolina as shannon stegg has.not to mention all the T.A.G.work he has put in. Ed you need to commit about my poor grammer and missed spelled words. cause you dont know shit about nc climbing history.Nathan Brown is the only one that comes close and the two years that i climbed with nathan he thought yall where a bunch of elitest pricks too. remember those days nathan.when you didnt want in the asshole club. WTF happend nat.

This happens everywhere.. there are rules made to stop others and preserve the local boy's club ability to cherry pick. It is the mentality in NC and the SE in general. If we do it...no big deal..if you do it.. Awww hell no..there are rules and you need to follow them. That is my random comment as I don't know the details..but am interested in hearing the whole story since you guys want to put it out there for everyone.

Ace is correct, it does happen everywhere. Im watched in happen in my home state of new hampshire early in my climbing career and watched one of my favorite local spots close because of it. Considering the amount of effort that was put in to get LK open for public use I would tread lightly as to what actions are made. Things fall apart pretty easily these days in America, dont lose that beautiful cliff fellas.....if you do Cannon Cliff will go back to being the tallest "legally climbable" cliff in the east.

I have been climbing with Nathan for about 8 months now, and find it very difficult to believe he would deface rock or steal someone's line. In my presence he has always put up routes that adhere to local ethics (ground up), and has been consistently respectful of others' lines. I don't know about the specifics of these routes, but the allegations don't sound like something that I could ever imagine Nathan doing.

Whining about who gets a FA is just as elitist as the so called "good ole boy" tactic that was claimed to be perpetrated. FA'ing doesn't make you special, and doesn't necessary deserve respect. It is for those with a ton of free time to scour the land and for those climbing in the right generation when there was still a plethora of available rock, or in some cases people just willing to bolt choss. One thing I can definitely say about Nathan's routes is that he isn't leaving up "time bombs" like Stegg. I have climbed on several of Stegg's routes where the hardware was just atrocious. Instead of focusing on spraying new bolts on cliffs or who did what, lets fix some of the forgotten hardware. To me, that is a true sign of a good steward of the cliffs. Also, I don't remember either of you at any of the trail days when we re-routed the entire switch back section over the last several years. Maybe this is just another case of Shull playing the devil's advocate and the two of you taking the bait. So many new routes have gone up since the bolt moratorium was lifted, its not like there wasn't more chances to establish routes.

I'd like to comment on the 'good ole boy' aspect of the events that played out. As I understand the complaint, wroy et al., claim that the new route application process was put into place simply to enable friends and associates of those 'in the loop' to reserve for themselves the choicest lines. If this is the contention being made, then I challenge these two clowns to name a single instant when an application was denied based on how poorly connected the applicant was. The fact is that not a single valid application for a new route was denied in the time the process was in place. There is absolutely no evidence to support your contention of cronyism. Why are we even rehashing this debate? Aren't you currently drilling your weed-bongs in Colorado? Go play Robin Hood over there.

and frankly no one give two shits about this drama....the community appreciates the new routes but thats about it. Most of these routes will not be climbed by 99% of the climbing community, and the one percent that does doesn't really care who put it up.

This drama is the creation of the parties involved and frankly is detrimental to everyone.

Once again if things got published in this damn area most of this crap wouldnt happen.

Oh and what makes this worse is these routes are not cutting edge...we aren't talking about some crazy new 5.14 trad project but run of the mill slab climbing in grooves....smear smear stem smear smear stem

As to 'time bombs' I would wager that Shannon has more routes in the TAG and NC than any other single person...spanning the course of three or four decades. Maybe some of the older routes have tired gear (Tallulah, Jamestown, etc.) but I have never seen what I would consider 'bad' upon install. "Time bombs" illicits thoughts of negligence in some ways and with 100s (1000s?) of lines in the SE I'd hesitate to defame Stegg's intent or abilities.

That is what I am getting at ben. With 1000 s of routes, who cares about one. Why rehash something that is 5 years or more old. Have you ever seen the mank that is up at whitesides? I was very glad Stephen fixed the time bomb on boulder problem in the sky. I will be glad to name some more old hardware waiting to go from only a decade or two ago. Talking about defamation, isn't that what Wayne and stegg are trying to do to Nathan on a public forum. Why not be the men they say they are and just contact him privately. Not to mention their complaints about Nathan are all here say. By definition defamation. At least the bad gear I am talking about is still there for anyone to go look at and his name as the fa attached to it. My point is that they cannot call themselves good stewards, the trail reference, and not take care of routes they have already done. I didn't say he was intentionally putting in bad gear, unless he was using carbon steel to save a buck.

Yeah, I've seen the stuff at Whitesides, saw Stephen's much-needed handiwork on Boulder Problem, and have replaced some of Stegg's older fixed gear at one of my local crags...alot of which was installed in the early eighties. Even so,I would't say he's maliciously leaving up time bombs. He's more about doing new routes....just the way it is.

I can't speak to anyone's motives....but I believe Shannon indicates that he tried to talk to Nathan, to no avail. I find it hard to believe that Nathan would chip a quartz crystal, as well. I think both sides harbor animosity. And, true, this might not be the venue, but the comments in this thread are heavily weighted by NC folks.

When I started climbing at LK, the moratorium was on and everyone was up in arms. While information was hard to come by from 'locals', Shannon and Wayne introduced many people to the classics at LK and were much freer with information, probably furthering the good feelings many have about the place...generating trail workers, donations, etc...maybe moreso than most who would deride realize.

In the few years since the moratorium went away, I have been pleased to see Andrew and Nathan's work alongside Shannon & Co. Having climbed on some of all these guy's routes, the quality that LK offers up is undeniable and interpreted differently by each. Andrew and Nathan are taking direct lines up the steepest, biggest, blankest seeming piece of granite on the East Coast....most with big, fat, bomber stainless bolts....which are much easier to place these days. In time, even these will lose strength and these dudes might move on....and I, for one, don't think we should lambast them for it.

Don't like Shannon's thirty year old manky pins? Follow Stephen's lead and fix it.

With great power comes great responsibility. My name isn't on the fa, I get no credit for updating hardware. Like Wayne was complaining about, money, I shouldn't have to spend to update some else's route, especially when they are still alive climbing and fa'ing. Which(fa'ing) is just what they are complaining about. Are we getting the irony... Nobody is knocking stegg, it's just that his priority shouldn't be rehashing old crap but fixing it.

There's a lot of BS going on here, do any of us really want to be the hatfields and mccoys on the internet?

I'm not going to comment on the main feud here, but I will say this-

Shannon is currently using Hilti 3/8 marine grade stainless steel bolts and commercial SS hangers, mostly Mad Rocks. No, he didn't go cheap like me and buy the 50 count boxes of regular SS Powerbolts, he got the Hilti bolts in the marine grade for at least 3X the price. He's also using Fixe ring anchors for the stations. I know this for a fact. He does indeed upgrade old hardware, but as Ben said, he's done a LOT of FA's in various parts of the SE and elsewhere, some of which were done many years ago.

TC says the FA party is supposed to maintain the hardware on all their routes and no one seems to disagree.

Seriously? For how long? Do your heirs have to pay for the maintenance after your death? What if you move away and it's not your local climbing area anymore? Do you have to go back every so many years and replace all the gear? If he was still alive, would Warren Harding have to maintain the Nose on El Cap, or is it Lynn Hill's responsibiliy since she freed it first? Who the heck wrote this into the rule book?

Hey Nathan why did you not smash those two natural placements like you did when you stole our third pitch of "mirage". Just to appease the new route commity which you were in such favor of! Do not forget to tell your hero worshipers whose side you were on when the issue was how the next generation of climbers would have the same opportunity as you and I did.

You idiots are spraying about the wrong issues, its not about first ascents and ego's. Its not even about rock destruction or route maintainance, but this is what it led to. Wake up call, it was about telling the present and future climbers that they no longer can put up routes without permission from a comittee. Get real if you think my heart is not in this you are wrong. Weather you believe me or not I do not care! If you want the truth on how we even got to trying to change how we have developed climbs here in Western Carolina since it all started, ask Mr. Medina to show you the transcripts of those early meetings when the N.C. climbers decided to vote on changing how we have been doing it down here forever! Laurel Knob is a world class Dome! I will not let it get fucked up by a bunch of locals who are known for writing hate mail to climbers who manage to do the things they wish they had!

I'm confused, is this thread about bashing the ccc or Nathan? Or is Nathan just collateral damage? I find it very ironic that you call me a carpetbagger in one thread and then complain about a good ole' boy tactic being perpetrated in this one. There is a lot of hate. I too would like to see lots of things done by the ccc. Not being on the inside, I assume they are busy with other things currently since this is not their main occupation (mainly Hickory Nut stuff). Now would be a perfect time to work with the ccc to try and resolve current issues. The new board members are young and very receptive. I think it would be a better use of time. It would be great to get access through Dillard's canyon, as well as getting climbing legalized at ghost town.