(16-09-2012 03:26 PM)fstratzero Wrote: "During the Civil War Congress passed the Revenue Act of 1861 which included a tax on personal incomes to help pay war expenses. The tax was repealed ten years later." - the link I posted.

Actually it wasn't repealed. It was shelved. It returned in 1894, 1895, and 1899. When the Great Depression struck, it was mandated and regulated.

Income tax is a requirement for a modern government to run. With the amount of people on Earth and with the global economy, it is impossible to have a small government and maintain order.

(16-09-2012 03:26 PM)fstratzero Wrote: "During the Civil War Congress passed the Revenue Act of 1861 which included a tax on personal incomes to help pay war expenses. The tax was repealed ten years later." - the link I posted.

Actually it wasn't repealed. It was shelved. It returned in 1894, 1895, and 1899. When the Great Depression struck, it was mandated and regulated.

Income tax is a requirement for a modern government to run. With the amount of people on Earth and with the global economy, it is impossible to have a small government and maintain order.

The Revenue Act was repealed, but the amendment was later introduced.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-

Could you first clarify what we are talking about here? Tips from waitressing? Gains on the stock market?

Logico, and Chas,

Yes there was a few years here and there before the 16th amendment but I think your missing the point. America has, historically not had a income tax more than it has; It had no moral right to ever do so. And....just for arguments sake, in 1861, the Confederate States of America did not have this tax, which equated to about half the "United States of America".

Ultimately though, it wouldn't have mattered if every state in history had done so. It is still immoral (to me). A thousand years ago slavery was legal by virtually every society, was it moral? I think most people today would agree that it is not.

(16-09-2012 03:26 PM)Chas Wrote: But it is not taxing labor. On what basis would you not tax it?

Could you first clarify what we are talking about here? Tips from waitressing? Gains on the stock market?

Logico, and Chas,

Yes there was a few years here and there before the 16th amendment but I think your missing the point. America has, historically not had a income tax more than it has; It had no moral right to ever do so. And....just for arguments sake, in 1861, the Confederate States of America did not have this tax, which equated to about half the "United States of America".

Ultimately though, it wouldn't have mattered if every state in history had done so. It is still immoral (to me). A thousand years ago slavery was legal by virtually every society, was it moral? I think most people today would agree that it is not.

Yes, it is so immoral for the government to legally tax your income. Boohoo. Even though the U.S people voted it in. It is still so immoral for the government do it.
Listen, you can run on a tangent about subjective morality all you want, but at the end of the day, income tax is a necessity in the modern world.
Slavery was non-progressive. Not only did many slave owners ultimately wind up paying more to keep them alive, but the slaves stood up for themselves. If the people really cared about income tax, they could do something about it.

If you truly understood taxation, you'd know that it is necessary. Small government is a thing of the past.

(16-09-2012 04:51 PM)Dark Light Wrote: Could you first clarify what we are talking about here? Tips from waitressing? Gains on the stock market?

Logico, and Chas,

Yes there was a few years here and there before the 16th amendment but I think your missing the point. America has, historically not had a income tax more than it has; It had no moral right to ever do so. And....just for arguments sake, in 1861, the Confederate States of America did not have this tax, which equated to about half the "United States of America".

Ultimately though, it wouldn't have mattered if every state in history had done so. It is still immoral (to me). A thousand years ago slavery was legal by virtually every society, was it moral? I think most people today would agree that it is not.

Yes, it is so immoral for the government to legally tax your income. Boohoo. Even though the U.S people voted it in. It is still so immoral for the government do it.
Listen, you can run on a tangent about subjective morality all you want, but at the end of the day, income tax is a necessity in the modern world.
Slavery was non-progressive. Not only did many slave owners ultimately wind up paying more to keep them alive, but the slaves stood up for themselves. If the people really cared about income tax, they could do something about it.

If you truly understood taxation, you'd know that it is necessary. Small government is a thing of the past.

Your argument is that the government gave itself permission to steal from me, therefore if I complain, I'm a baby. And furthermore, because the people before me haven't overturned the governments decision on the matter that it isn't worth complaining about. I guess in 1800, slavery was okay because not enough people complained about it yet.

The truth is there are A LOT of people who are with me on this one. What we are doing is standing up. A LOT of people have gone to prison over it. The same with small government. About HALF of the country is with me on that one since large numbers of people being upset = morality for you.

(16-09-2012 05:11 PM)Logica Humano Wrote: Yes, it is so immoral for the government to legally tax your income. Boohoo. Even though the U.S people voted it in. It is still so immoral for the government do it.
Listen, you can run on a tangent about subjective morality all you want, but at the end of the day, income tax is a necessity in the modern world.
Slavery was non-progressive. Not only did many slave owners ultimately wind up paying more to keep them alive, but the slaves stood up for themselves. If the people really cared about income tax, they could do something about it.

If you truly understood taxation, you'd know that it is necessary. Small government is a thing of the past.

Your argument is that the government gave itself permission to steal from me, therefore if I complain, I'm a baby. And furthermore, because the people before me haven't overturned the governments decision on the matter that it isn't worth complaining about. I guess in 1800, slavery was okay because not enough people complained about it yet.

The truth is there are A LOT of people who are with me on this one. What we are doing is standing up. A LOT of people have gone to prison over it. The same with small government. About HALF of the country is with me on that one since large numbers of people being upset = morality for you.

what, you think "you guys" are some sort of freedom fighter rebels or something?

I really don't understand what part of "your taxes pay for shit" you don't understand.

Sure GST is a 'fairer' way to tax the population but that doesn't mean that income tax should be off the table.
GST is a way of "punishing" those that use high amounts of bad things. Like for example gas, you use a lot of gas so you pay higher amounts of GST. That GST is then used for gas related things such as roads and stuff. So the more roads you use, the more you pay for effectively. Same with tobacco and alcohol, that money is used to combat the side effects such as health problems and drink driving accidents. This means the more you use, the more you contribute to paying for those negative side effects.

But where GST comes unstuck is things like education, government (bureaucracy), military, health.

How do you determine who uses the most military? You don't/can't. And so it is fair to tax the population based on income (the more income you have the more you pay yes but also the more you have to lose).
Taxation is effectively giving us (the population) the bill for things that we don't specifically pay for.
Benefits are another one, how do you charge gst on benefits? You can't, so you charge income tax.

If income tax goes away GST will just go up because the money has to come from somewhere.
It's like this. If you earn say $100 a week. You spend $20 ($10 of which is GST) and pay $10 in income tax.
Say that $10 income tax goes away, it has to come from somewhere so GST goes up.
Now you are spending $30 a week (on the same goods, $20 gst this time) and $0 income tax.
In both cases the amount of tax and the amount left over is the same for you.