How would a championship club manage to develop an extensive junior system? Have Skolars managed this for instance??

How many fans actually grasp the chance to watch a championship team in the north where's there's a deep culture of RL? How many london fans grasp the chance to watch Skolars now?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for championship clubs to be created across britain and in turn for them to stimulate lots of local Rugby kids to play RL rather than union, and the best can then pack suitcases and go to sign for someone along the M62. Then we'd have the whole of Britain producing quality RL players and us lot along the M62 can have the privelige of being able to go watch them all.

McDermotts thoughts seem to be that the withdrawal of Superleague from London will bust up a junior system that is probably as good as many northern clubs have. No doubt HRU, Wasps saracens etc will help bust it up......???

Thoughts from any of you London people?

I seem to be in a minority with those I have discussed this with at Quins but I am not so sure that playing outside of Super League and in the Championship would be a total disaster. Its certainly not my preferred option but I would say they would keep the majority of the 2,000 or so hard core fans,but only if they played in the London area. Fortunately as the junior game is pretty much embedded around different areas of London I would say it will keep growing. Add to that the fact that a good few junior clubs are catching the youngsters at a very early age as minis hopefully they will turn out to be "league" only playersas oposed to playing union in the off season, which was invariably the case a few years ago when I was involved. Also I am not convinced that a lot of the prospective players of the future in London are necessarily aspiring to play for Quins as opposed to representing some of the bigger clubs around the m62. And until Quins become a tad more glamorous and start threatening to win a few games over a season on a regular basis I am not sure things there attitudes will change.

Didn't Paul Grimes many many years ago also take a fancy to League from the far away Newcastle??

There's another.

That's two.

No, it is two just in recent years from Northampton. If you paid any attention whatsoever to rugby league outside the M62 that there are very many others.

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As for my views you could be kind enough to leave me to articulate them rather than apply your clumsy definitions to them.

Brian McDermott clearly thinks that Harelquins stimulate junior production in London, and that the removal of an SL club would be damaging, so I am inclined to keep that well in mind and bear towards his opinion rather than yours.

What do you expect him to say? Quins are a waste of time and should be kicked out?

He is hardly likely to say that even if he believed it.

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I'll also keep well in mind the extensive junior set up that was stimulated in south wales by crusaders.

And the lack of such set ups in areas where there is no professional RL presence with a mandate to create such junior systems.

That's because you aren't interested in those set-ups and don't take any trouble to find these things out for yourself. They exist but you haven't ever bothered to find out about them.

I seem to be in a minority with those I have discussed this with at Quins but I am not so sure that playing outside of Super League and in the Championship would be a total disaster. Its certainly not my preferred option but I would say they would keep the majority of the 2,000 or so hard core fans,but only if they played in the London area. Fortunately as the junior game is pretty much embedded around different areas of London I would say it will keep growing. Add to that the fact that a good few junior clubs are catching the youngsters at a very early age as minis hopefully they will turn out to be "league" only playersas oposed to playing union in the off season, which was invariably the case a few years ago when I was involved. Also I am not convinced that a lot of the prospective players of the future in London are necessarily aspiring to play for Quins as opposed to representing some of the bigger clubs around the m62. And until Quins become a tad more glamorous and start threatening to win a few games over a season on a regular basis I am not sure things there attitudes will change.

Well that's an interesting view thanks, it's also as you say a "minority" view amongst London enthusiasts. Are you being optomistic - I don't know but suspect that London keeping a 2,000 crowd in the NL is if you don't mind me saying maybe quite optimistic??

I appreciate entirely that League kids in London will not always aspire to play for Quins - where they end up playing - wether at Saints, Quins, in France or in Rugby Union will be down to many factors including personal ones especially.

The free gangway allows kids to choose league, development officers, amateur clubs and volunteers, and pro clubs facilitate the interest and development, and the question remains wether a pro club helps boost numbers, as it's a numbers game. Sure we can have kids playing from Northampton to Newcastle and Cardiff to Croyden - sounds good - but numbers count.

Beyond a pro club helping local kids to aspire to the game how far does such a club stimulate schools to play RL, or adults who follow the pro club to start junior teams. I suspect the answer to this won't come from analysing Quins, but seeing how the M62 clubs get on raising numbers and standards now they have to do it as a franchise criteria.

The other London question remaining is wether the club underpin a higher level of SKY money and other RFL income - any views there, or thoughts you have come across from others?

No, it is two just in recent years from Northampton. If you paid any attention whatsoever to rugby league outside the M62 that there are very many others. What do you expect him to say? Quins are a waste of time and should be kicked out? He is hardly likely to say that even if he believed it. That's because you aren't interested in those set-ups and don't take any trouble to find these things out for yourself. They exist but you haven't ever bothered to find out about them.

thanks for that.....

Can I take it that you believe Quins add no monetary value to RFL contracts, grants and sponsorships, and that the development of junior RL in London is improving at a pace that Quins have had no real bearing on?

Can I take it that you believe Quins add no monetary value to RFL contracts, grants and sponsorships,

Pretty much

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and that the development of junior RL in London is improving at a pace that Quins have had no real bearing on?

I'd say little bearing. Go onto the London RL site and check out which sides have teams in the London Junior / Mini League and / or the Chiltern League. Now get out a map and find all these boroughs / towns. The thing you will immediately notice is that London's RL "heartland" is East London / Essex / Kent as well as the St Albans / Hemel area to the north of London i.e. nowhere near Bronquins.

Now I know that Bronquins do help out the likes of South London Storm and West London Sharks in their immediate vicinity and they are both top clubs for producing young players but to say that Bronquins are the driving force behind London RL development is pushing it just a little bit too much. If they were you'd expect there to be more West / South West London clubs with juniors coming through.

I think really, it's now down to how much the RFL are prepared to go in the bail out, and under what terms.

Something for juniors to aspire to is one thing, but surely they have to go watch and want to be part of it as well.The free season ticket deal a year or so back showed they only wanted to play for their club side, not go watch S/L for nowt.

Honestly don't know what happens next. How deep are the RFL pockets this time, what impact will Quins folding have on Juniors?(I suspect very little on the second bit if the development officers are still in place)

I don't think the RFL should spend any money on bailing out any club, full stop. Otherwise the spending will never stop and will simply increase whatever antipathy might exist towards whichever club(s) are involved.

Should the RFL also contemplate bailing out Whitehaven, or is this simply too far-fetched to contemplate?

Something for juniors to aspire to is one thing, but surely they have to go watch and want to be part of it as well.The free season ticket deal a year or so back showed they only wanted to play for their club side, not go watch S/L for nowt.

How deep are the RFL pockets this time, what impact will Quins folding have on Juniors?(I suspect very little on the second bit if the development officers are still in place)

Playing and watching sport is two different things surely?

I've watched RL avidly all my life but hardly played it compared to soccer. Lads in our junior soccer club on the whole don't watch Leeds United and it's just down the road?

Take your point on the development officers though, how much they get the kids playing against Quins is something to consider.....

There seams to be an unspoken fear that the Quins equal Super League and that a league with no Quins will lose everything that has been gained since SL came into existance.

I think this fear is exagerated from the fact the London Broncos were created from the Fulham club at the start of SL. SKY did broadcast and put money into RL pre-SL and would continue to do so whether it was called SL or the Ultimo league, whether it had a London club or not or 3 London clubs. I'm sure the London club allows the RFL to charge a higher premium from SKY by arguing national rather than region interest, but the same can be argued for the addition of Catalan meaning they can bid based on a European interest. However the value of this premium is quite unknown to pretty much everyone. For certain no one on here knows what London RL adds to the value of the contract.

For some years SL opperated without a European side and the loss and then addition of the French side did not seam to effect the value that the RL could get from SKY.

So actually the loss of Quins may effect the contract in exactly the same way ie not at all.

Sure there is a great regional strength in RL based along the M62, however with clubs in both Wales and France, I think the RL can argue that there is a wider appeal and to be honest I don't think SKY are idiots and know very well that 2000 fans watching in London demonstrates very little.

I am not anti expansion, but neither am I expansion at all costs including the cost of the club and the league itself. I'm not a huge fan of the London name as I feel this identifies with no one. London is huge bigger than some countries in population and is far too big for one club to appeal to all. I think the London name has more emphasis for those outside of London than those in it. Look at other sporting clubs in London and they are far more local, basing themselves around a region or town within london, not the whole place. Quins name did nothing as it's not local or city wide, it's just a RU club one of the most famous in the world, I understand that at the time it was nessasary but I think that has always been the way with the London club since the start of SL.

There has been no long term strategy, just tactical planning and firefighting at each stage. I think if the RL can get them to the end of the licence all well and good, but in the end IMHO, a whole rebuild probably in the Championship is what is required.

I would much prefer for 'London' to find a home they can afford long term, be that Milton Keynes or London or anywhere without the need for a sugar daddy. As if we are always looking for people to invest with no monetary return well the list of suckers is fast running short. I would hope that if London was lost at the next round then it would be replaced with another expansion club such as tolouse in addition to the already stated franchise system. So that would mean Tolouse and Widnes up. London to rebuild alongside another club that did not meet the franchise criterion. With the aim to move to 16 teams 3 years later with a financially stable, 'London' club to be one to return for certain. After hopefully having 3 successful years on and off the field building good finances, players and fans who have had some reward in terms of cup and league success.

I know it may sound niave but only as naive as every other attempt to fix the London club from day one.

I don't think the RFL should spend any money on bailing out any club, full stop. Otherwise the spending will never stop and will simply increase whatever antipathy might exist towards whichever club(s) are involved.

Should the RFL also contemplate bailing out Whitehaven, or is this simply too far-fetched to contemplate?

That's a good point - bailing us out (which I wouldn't agree with) could set a dangerous precedent. Look how much Saints lost in the last financial year - they'd be straight onto Red Hall for a cheque for £800k+.

That's a good point - bailing us out (which I wouldn't agree with) could set a dangerous precedent. Look how much Saints lost in the last financial year - they'd be straight onto Red Hall for a cheque for £800k+.

I'd agree with it if the sums involved were much smaller than 800k and it was a loan not a gift. Other than that if it a six figure sum then it is better to invest that directly into the game; that would pay for an awful lot of development officers.

lets be honest and admit that a lot of Rugby League people are happy for the game only to be played in the M62 corridor in this country, so they will be happy with the Quins RL situation. sky will be happy as they will pay less for covering Rugby League with no Super League club in London. if people think that sky will pay the same or more for Rugby League without a super League club in London they are kidding themselves its not going to happen. if you don't believe me speak to the people at the RFL who are aware of the situation as regards the importance of having a Super League team in London.

lets be honest and admit that a lot of Rugby League people are happy for the game only to be played in the M62 corridor in this country, so they will be happy with the Quins RL situation. sky will be happy as they will pay less for covering Rugby League with no Super League club in London. if people think that sky will pay the same or more for Rugby League without a super League club in London they are kidding themselves its not going to happen. if you don't believe me speak to the people at the RFL who are aware of the situation as regards the importance of having a Super League team in London.

How does having a club in London affect Sky's audience and the ammount that they can generate from advertising during RL games? My guess is not a lot and if the RFL can't negotiate around that then they are pretty poor at their jobs. Remember ESPN has now snaffled a chunk of the RU rights so Sky should be keen to maintain their grip on our game. Comparison of the viewing figures provides interesting reading.

lets be honest and admit that a lot of Rugby League people are happy for the game only to be played in the M62 corridor in this country, so they will be happy with the Quins RL situation. sky will be happy as they will pay less for covering Rugby League with no Super League club in London. if people think that sky will pay the same or more for Rugby League without a super League club in London they are kidding themselves its not going to happen. if you don't believe me speak to the people at the RFL who are aware of the situation as regards the importance of having a Super League team in London.

We should be honest and admit there's no proof a club with few fans in London makes an iota of difference to the SL contract. Also it's a myth that a lot of fans want no expansion of the sport. Fans would love a thriving London SL club, what noone but the truly crazy want is the RFL bankrupting themselves by bailing out an unviable club with few fans to the tune of £1.5million a year (and it would grow by a lot if they knew they could claim the money back from the RFL) when that money could go to much better use

How does having a club in London affect Sky's audience and the ammount that they can generate from advertising during RL games? My guess is not a lot and if the RFL can't negotiate around that then they are pretty poor at their jobs. Remember ESPN has now snaffled a chunk of the RU rights so Sky should be keen to maintain their grip on our game. Comparison of the viewing figures provides interesting reading.

if your in the camp that thinks the sky will pay as much for Rugby League without a super league club in London your wrong. less money from sky means less money going to Super League clubs. if you don't believe there is nothing i can do about it, but i am right.