What about the "cooks off" comment? Does it change chemically? If so, into what?

Warren,

"Cooks off" perhaps isn't the most technically accurate expression but I believe the writer was trying to convey that there is no bromate left in the crust after baking. There have been studies conducted on this point, including one at http://www.aaccnet.org/cerealchemistry/backissues/1960/chem37_573.pdf, that purport to show that unless the initial potassium bromate levels are high, there is likely to be no bromate left in the product after baking for a reasonable length of time. In Buddy's case, I have read that their pizzas are baked for around 12 minutes in an infrared conveyor oven. I don't recall reading what bake temperatures they use but they do recommend that purchasers of their so-called "Half-Bake" pizzas use an oven temperature of 375-400 degrees F.

I have looked at the potassium bromate levels in several of General Mills bromated flours and the levels run about 8-16 ppm. In GM's case, it seems that it is only the hard red spring wheat flours that are bromated. The winter wheat flours are not.

Technically, I believe the potassium bromate is converted to bromides. My original inquiry to Buddy's was mainly to determine whether they are using the bromated flour for getting a better final rise in their doughs. I posed my question in the context of a health concern to increase the chances of getting an answer to my question. Now that I have the answer, I might think about using a bit of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) to achieve similar (albeit much less effective) results as using a bromated flour. That is the method that Papa John's uses with its pizza flours.

With all the zigging and zagging that has occurred in this thread, I thought that it might be useful to pull together in one place what I believe we know about the Buddy’s style pizza based on information available at the Buddy’s website and from the posts of many of our members. In attempting this summary, I am aware that some of the information may no longer apply or may have been modified, as often happens in a non-static business environment. For example, at one time there was a link at the Buddy’s website to some very useful information on the Buddy’s pizzas, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm. However, that link no longer appears at the Buddy’s website—or at least I have not been able to find it (and it is not archived in the Wayback Machine). It is hard to know what the disappearance of the above link from its once highly prominent position means (unless they are cheapening their product) but since it is hard to imagine that Buddy’s has dramatically changed the character of its pizzas, I will assume for now that the information at the abovereferenced link is still valid.

Members should feel free to add to the summary presented below or to correct or amplify on any point raised. Here is my summary:

1. Buddy’s uses a “premium grade” flour for its pizza dough, and, based on a recent exchange with Buddy’s, it is bromated (which is common for a Sicilian style dough). The only other dough ingredients are water, yeast and salt. There is no sugar in the dough and there is no oil in the dough per se, although, as noted below, there is oil that is used in shaping the dough and in the pans used to bake the pizzas.

2. According to Buddy’s, the dough is made daily, at each store location, and the dough is double kneaded and allowed to rise for 1 to 1 ½ hours, presumably in pans. Some time ago, after I inquired, I was told that double kneading mentioned above entails removing the dough from the mixer, patting it out (presumably after balling), stretching it, and then panning it (see Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842). According to Wes Pikula of Buddy's, the dough is "stretched numerous times" (look for the pertinent text at the end of the page at http://pmq.com/digital/20110607/files/data/search.xml). One member has reported (at Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765) that the dough making starts in the morning, for example, from about 8 AM to about 11 AM. That dough is then used during the course of the day to fill orders, with the dough made earliest in the morning (e.g., 8-9 AM) being used for the lunch business. Another member, at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79248.html#msg79248, has reported that the dough in the pans is allowed to rise and is then punched down again. It was also reported, at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73843.html#msg73843, that the dough is quite hard to press out. It has also been reported (at Reply 95 referenced above) that the water used to make the dough is ice cold and that the flour is also cold. That could account for some of the difficulty in pressing out the dough (a warm dough is much easier to work with). However, it is not clear whether the cold ingredients are used all of the time (to slow down the fermentation process so that the dough holds out longer) or only in the summer to achieve a relatively constant finished dough temperature when the stores are hotter than usual. Presumably, the pans of dough can be held in coolers to keep the dough from overfermenting/overproofing and removed and allowed to temper as needed to fill orders. If this is the method actually employed, it would not be unusual for different doughs to have different amounts of fermentation. I should hasten to add that I have seen no evidence that the dough is held in coolers.

4. The Buddy’s cheese for its square pizzas is a brick cheese made especially for Buddy’s by Kraft, in Wisconsin. [Note: See EDIT below.] It is said to be shredded by hand although from a photo of the cheese that I have seen, at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, the cheese looks more diced than shredded, or else the shred is a short shred. According to Buddy’s, almost one pound of the cheese (15 ounces) is used to make the eight-square pizza. If the amount of cheese used for the four-square pizza is used proportionately, I estimate that the amount of cheese for that pizza comes to about 8.57 ounces, or 0.1071428 ounces per square inch. In both cases, the cheese is distributed to the outer edges of the pizzas to crisp up during baking. The cheese is put on the pizzas before the sauce.

5. The sauce for the Buddy’s pizzas is a non-chunky sauce and, according to Buddy’s, is made with a “blend of Stanislaus premium tomato products”, along with a proprietary blend of spices and herbs. The sauce is put on the pizzas in dollops to form wide “strips” (see http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG). According to EDIT 5 below, the sauce is put on the pizza prior to baking, unlike several other Detroit style pizza operators (including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klausie's Pizza) who put the sauce on the pizza either mid-bake (on a pre-baked crust with cheese applied) or after baking, using deck ovens rather than conveyor ovens.

6. The pepperoni used by Buddy’s on its pizzas is believed to be the Margherita brand. It is a coarse grind pepperoni that is sold under the designation “Coarse Grind Pepperoni”, #38616-31329 (Reply 79, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg69983.html#msg69983). The pepperoni slices are thicker than usual and have been described as being about the size of a quarter. [Note: For an update on the actual size, see EDIT 3 below.] According to Buddy’s, the pepperoni slices are placed under the cheese blend to prevent charring. Based on http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, the four-square pepperoni pizza appears to have 20 pepperoni slices. Extrapolating to the larger size pan (the eight-square pan), a total of about 35 pepperoni slices seems possible.

Despite what we feel we know about the Buddy’s pizzas, there is much we do not know. For example, we don’t know the precise ingredients and quantities of ingredients used by Buddy’s, and we don’t know how much dough is used to make a particular pizza. We would have to purchase a basic Buddy’s pizza, such as a cheese pizza, weigh it, and try to work backwards to arrive at a possible dough weight and thickness factor. I also believe that the use of a bromated flour is an important aspect of the Buddy’s dough, and that the dough preparation and management methods, including hydration values, are also critical to the success of the Buddy’s pizzas. I also think that concentrating on a room-temperature fermented dough, either alone or in conjunction with a period of cold storage (but mainly for dough management purposes rather than for better crust flavor), is a productive way to proceed. I do not believe that “double kneading” is as important as Buddy’s has led us to believe. Some form of stretch and fold, or a rest period in the mixer followed by a final few turns, or a simple punchdown after an initial rise in the pan, should, in my opinion, serve as reasonable substitutes for the Buddy’s double knead method.

PeterEDIT (12/11/10): Buddy's has changed its website and no longer talks about double kneading or the use of Stanislaus tomatoes or Wisconsin brick cheese; it also appears that Buddy's has gone to Foremost Farms cheeses, as noted on the Buddy's menu

I got Buddy's for lunch at the Point Plaza location and tried to gather some information. I ordered three pepperoni slices and I tried to gather as much information as I could for you guys. I weighed the slices and got the following results for a post-cooked slice:

Slice 1: 140gSlice 2: 147gSlice 3: 148gAverage: 145g

Therefore a four slice pepperoni pizza after cooking should weigh 580g.

About every 3-4 weeks I do my Buddy’s / Shield’s pizza baking day, and all of those that have been here for it before, or heard about it, start lobbying to be on the invite list.

I generally make 3- 4 pans about 11 X 17 inches. If you are going to do all the work, why go small? This brings me to the subject of the best pizza pans. Here in California, all that they carry in the local restaurant supply houses are very expensive aluminum or stainless steel pans. Awhile ago, I did a search and found the very best pizza pan, and for a reasonable price.

An internet search came up with a company that sells reinforced black steel baking pans. Guess where they are located…on Schoolcraft Road in Livonia MI. Yep It must be the same place that Buddy’s and Shield’s get them from. There is a hitch, they are wholesale only, and do not accept credit cards. They agreed to sell me 4 pans, and took my personal check after computing the shipping cost to my home here in California. These pans are great.

The company is P.A. Products. I would include a link, but this site will not let me. it is paprod dot com.

The wine is breathing, the beer is chilling, and the dough is rising. The Paul Butterfield Blues Band is playing on the box, and I am stirring the sauce. We have guests from Detroit arriving in a few hours that will be staying with us for 5 days, and I do not want them to feel too homesick.

Yeah right! Homesick while in the SF bay area? I don’t think so.

Making and eating the Pizza is a tough job, but these are the sacrifices one sometimes has to make in life, so I guess I will just have to get back to it.

The link to P.A. Products is http://www.paprod.com/pans.html. The rectangular steel pans with sloping sides are shown toward the bottom of the page. However, I was told by Buddy's that their "eight-square" pans are 10" x 14". Since that pan has sloping sides, can you measure the top and bottom dimensions (a total of four dimensions) for your pan?

Can you tell us how much the four pans cost? Also, what dough recipe are you using and is it a clone of the Buddy's dough?

The pans that I use are 12 X 17 inch on the top, and 10.5 X 15.5 on the bottom.

The dough is from a recipt in Saveur magazine for Focaccia. It was very nice, and as soon as I have some time free, I will transcribe it and place a post on this site. This will have to wait until my guests leave.

I have never been too concerned if my Pizza is exactly like Buddy's as long as everyone that eats it goes home smilling. It is almost an all day job letting it rise two times and baking it twice. Hell, It is never the same twice. I am always changing things to see how it comes out. The results have never been bad, just different. This evening I will make two pies with Pepperoni, and one with mushrooms, green peppers, and anchovies. It's all good!

I use a local sausage company for the pepperoni, and have an Italian deli slice it to the thickness I like.

The sauce is one can of 6 in 1 crushed tomatoes, with a tsp of orgiano and basil added for each pizza. I cook it slow for about 3 hours to reduce it some.

The main purpose of this thread has been to reverse engineer a Buddy's or Shield's pizza dough/pizza. See, for example, Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436. I made the suggestion wearing my Moderator hat, since one of my duties is to try to keep the indexing format of the forum intact. I'd rather see your thread/post stand alone and not get lost in this thread where people may have a hard time finding it. It it turns out that the thread belongs somewhere else, I can always move it.

I would like to try the 'batter' recipe posted by Pizza Hog, but I have a 10x15 pan, not the 10x14 pan he uses.. Can anyone recommend the ingredient adjustments necessary to accommodate it? Thanks in advance!

PizzaHog I was wondering if you could update us with the latest version of your recipe.

I have tried several on this site and they have all ended up terrible. I am not sure what I am doing wrong but they look nothing like in the pictures posted. Mine all seem to come out as thin crust and the toppings fry but the crust never bakes much.

PizzaHog I was wondering if you could update us with the latest version of your recipe.

I have tried several on this site and they have all ended up terrible. I am not sure what I am doing wrong but they look nothing like in the pictures posted. Mine all seem to come out as thin crust and the toppings fry but the crust never bakes much.

Updates: I checked my notes and seems like sometimes I knead for 5 mins, other times for 8 min! They obviously both work, but you may wish to try it both ways.I noticed it takes a bit longer for the pan rise here in the winter, like 3-3 1/2 hours or so.Don't be put off by the thinness of the batter after you wrestle it into submission, it rises big time in the pan, like triple or so. When you see this plus those large bubbles just beneath the surface of the dough, it is ready to go. You can adjust the prebake & after topped bake times to allow your toppings of choice to cook but not burn, just make it 15 mins total, bottom rack, 500 degrees. At these times and temp with the big time pan rise you should not have a thin or under baked crust.

Quote

I would like to try the 'batter' recipe posted by Pizza Hog, but I have a 10x15 pan, not the 10x14 pan he uses.. Can anyone recommend the ingredient adjustments necessary to accommodate it? Thanks in advance!

Hi I am also a newby to this site. I just wanted to say that I grew up on the original Buddy's Pizza on 6 mile and Conant. It was my Mother's Friday day off from cooking meal. I lived in Hamtramck and we always took advantage of the 2.00 coupon from the Citizen. My husband and I moved to Rochester MN about 4 years ago and have been on a pizza quest ever since. Forget about it!! We call the pizza they have here as "stuff on a cracker." We do order half baked pizzas from the original location (the only place that sends by mail) and for around 120.00, we receive 4 or 5 pizzas in a styrofoam cooler w/ dry ice. Of course we also order some antipasto salad dressing. We save these pizzas for special occasions and do not usually share. I've tried Shields pizza (from Shields Bar on 6 mile) and I do really love Louies. Does anyone know the name of the white haired gentleman greeter at the original Buddy's. He has been there for years and years. I wonder if he is still there. He is an icon.

Anyhow, I really appreciate everyone's hard work in researching the crust, sauce and ingredients. I'm sorry I can't contribute more but know that I will be reading w/ enthusiasm. I wish Buddy's would open a restaurant here in MN. Even if it were in Minneapolis, I would have no problem traveling 100 miles to eat it.

Just finished reading all the posts through this link and none seem to really answer the burning questions about Buddys! I used to own a pizza place and have some insight on dough,pepperoni and sauce recipes that may help some. Dove in head first at home with the mystery of the Buddys dough and came up with a pretty good clone. Starter is the key to getting the crispy airy crust you all have been searching high and low for.STARTER 1 C Flour/I use King Arthur Unbleached1/2 C Warm Water1/4 Tsp of Yeast/I prefer Red Star Bread Machine Variety.In a non reactive bowl/glass/stainless mix water and yeast and flour into a paste. This can be achieved with a fork, but dont beat it to death. Cover with plastice wrap and let sit for 24 hours in a warm place. After 24 hours you have one of the basic building blocks for your dough. I prefer a bread machine on the dough cycle for the mixing process.1/2 C of Luke Warm Water2 Tsp of IDY2 C FLour1 1/4 tsp of salt2 tbs of milk1 tbs of olive oil1 Starter recipe aboveAdd ingridients together in bread machine turn on to dough cycle keep an eye on the bread machine and pull the dough out after it forms a ball. Usually with most bread machines the dough cycle takes 2 hours makes sure you remove it once the ingredients form a ball Coat ball lightly with olive oil and put in non reactive bowl. Cover with plastic wrap and let rise 1 to 11/2 hours. Cut dough into four pieces and weigh each one you are looking for 10 to 11 oz each. Kneed dough with a little bench flour into 4 balls and brush with olive oil. Form the dough into the pans leaving a nice thin lip on all sides Again cover with saran wrap and stick them in your fridge to proof another 1 hour. My pans have been seasoned from many years of baking so this helps me out greatly. The pan dimensions for Buddys is 10 by 8 inches. Sauce and cheese will be disucced on another post. Hope you find this recipe close to the original Buddys just make sure you sprinkle the cheese all the way to the edge of the crust. I also use a brick and cook the pizza at about 375 cooking times vary on the amount of doneness you prefer, keep an eye on it.

Hi. I'm just another Detroit pizza fan in California. Thanks to all of you for this post, it is really appreciated. I just had some info I wanted to share. Mr. Sniffles, I want to try your recipe, but I know there are absolutely no dairy products in Buddy's crust. My son is allergic to dairy but after speaking with the manager we found he could eat the pizza without the cheese. (He did eat it, and had no reaction- which he would have if there had been any dairy in the crust, or even if the pan had been greased with butter or margarine. His allergy is pretty severe). I am always looking for delicious things to feed him, so thank you again for this post.

I've been tinkering with this clone recipe and I'm having a small problem with the center of the pizza not being cooked enough (top overcooked). From reading the whole thread again, I found I'm not supposed to put oil in the dough, or sugar, but not sure if either would cause the problem I'm having. I've made this pizza 50 times and it tastes great...I just have to let it sit for a bit before eating, but the top dries out too fast letting it sit.

I'm using a 10x10x2" cast iron pan and a preheated stone under it on the bottom rack. I've tried 525 degrees at 18 min and 350 degrees at 45 minutes, both have the same problem. The top is overcooked and the middle is a bit too wet. I've tried 60-63% hydration and same problem at both levels.

How much oil should be used in the bottom of a 10"x10" pan? I've been using 1 tbsp of olive oil for the bottom and 1 tbsp olive/vegetable oil for the dough. I let it rise at room temp for 3-5 hours in the pan.

200g of flour is used for this size pan and that's plenty of bread thickness for this pizza.

I put the pepperoni on top, along with green pepper, mushroom, onions and italian sausage. Is it possible my pepperoni and sausage have too much grease? I also use 12-13oz shred mozzerella - sauce on top.

To fix the problem, I will attempt less water (approx 55% hydration), no oil in dough and no sugar as well. Any other suggestions would help. If cast iron is a bad choice I'd love to understand why. Comments appreciated.

This forum got me started on making pizza and it's the #1 place on the net for advice on pizzamaking by far!

I figured out the problems regarding my earlier post above and wanted to report back to everyone what I came up with, which I believe is pretty close to a buddy's pizza according to everything I've read and gathered on my own. I've included a ton of details so newbies can create this pie correctly the first time....

I'm using an 8" round cast iron pan (6.5" bottom/8" top) because I like smaller pizzas which give me more crust per square inch of pizza. I also get to eat pizza more often this way! Here is the recipe exactly how I made it last night. I didn't take pictures because of the problems I've had trying to make this correctly in the past and it was so good I ate it too fast to stop and take pics as well.

Use dough calculator for different pan sizes.

Dough: 1 8" round100% 110g bread flour 11-12% protein (do not add Vital Wheat Gluten as I've tried many times without success)64% 70g warm water -added some vitamin C in it - see below1% 1/2t IDY for same-day dough (1/4t for overnight rise) 1/4t Salt2% 1/2t Sugar (adjust for browning purposes - some pans allow for faster browning)Absobic Acid/Vitamin C - my flour was plain flour so make sure you have some sort of conditioner in your dough or it won't rise well. If you buy from Sam's Club, their flour has nothing in it except flour!

I kneaded the dough slowly w/hooks for 4-5 minutes then left in covered bowl for 1-2 hours on countertop for first rise. In my pan I only used enough olive oil to coat the pan then I coated my hands with oil from the excess laying in the bottom of the pan to oil the outside of the dough as I shaped it. No oil inside dough, just outside...I placed flattened dough into pan and covered again for 4-5 hours to rise a second time on countertop. 2 hours before preparing, I popped it into the oven at about 80-90 degrees to rise further.

Toppings: Place all "wet" toppings and sliced pepperoni in between several paper towels and nuke them for 30 seconds. The longer they sit in the paper the better to remove all excess water without damaging veges. This defats the pepperoni a bit as well. The tomato product is almost perfect out of the can, but I do nuke it on half power for a few minutes to "cook" down the tomato and spices a bit to remove excess water. If you don't take these steps to remove the water, your pizza will taste fine, but texture will be horrible!

Typical Buddy's style: pepperoni down first, cheese, sauce and then veges on top.

Oven: Preheat oven to 550-600 degrees for 20 minutes. Slide in pizza on lowest rack and lower temp to 500 degrees, cook for 17 minutes. Get it out of the pan asap and onto cooling rack to let moisture out. If pizza gets cold while drying, put rack back in oven before cutting.

Note: If bottom is not brown enough for you, do not put back in pan and oven attempting to brown more. It just doesn't happen for some reason. Adjust sugar next time around and/or increase cook time.

Sorry for no pics, but this did make a beatiful slice, very "sponge-like" on the inside without excess water and no gum line at all. The bottom was lightly browned, not greasy at all (one dime-sized piece of dough stuck to pan actually) with no leftover grease in pan when done.

I've tried making this pizza 50 times in a bigger pan, always messing something up. If done this way, your pizza will be perfect as well! Even the newest rookie should benefit from this recipe if followed carefully. I've used at many authentic ingredients as research would allow, so this is as close to Buddy's as it's going to get.

Sadly, I had such a great writeup and lost it all when I went to post... all because of the damn image size.

I used PizzaHog's recipe (much thanks to him) and also went with the cold fermentation method for about 17-18 hours. I then moved the pizzas into the oven @ 475' for 5 minutes as a pre-bake, then loaded on the toppings (all underneath), the cheese and then the sauce. This was for 2 12x8 pizzas. Going down to enjoy leftovers now!

Howdy Gang!!! I'm BBaaaacccckkkk!!! Well, today, I had the day off and my original 25# of fine thin slice Margherita pepperoni is almost gone, so I took a trip to Caramagno Foods in Detroit. Went to the counter and asked the nice lady if I could buy a couple boxes of the coarse grind pepperoni and gave her the UPC code#. She proceeds to punch it into the computer and she looks at me and says "this is a special order item" and me thinks "Great, I came all this way for nothing"! She gets on the horn to someone and they give her the O.K. to sell to me since I don't have a restuarant. I ended getting three 12# boxes. Each box has 4/3# bags. Cost $111.90. It says right on the box "Institutional Use Only". Who comes up with this stuff anyways? Rosellis only carries the 25# fine and the 10# whole link. I asked why he doesn't carry it and the owner says it too expensive. By my math, buying the coarse sliced is just about even. $78.00 for 25# thin sliced from Roselli's or $74.60 for 2-12# boxes of sliced coarse grind from Caramagno Foods. The slight price increase for the coarse ground sliced would be offset to me by not having to peel the casing off or slicing the whole links. I was so grateful I found the pepperoni that I forgot to ask if they were the ones that carried the cheese that Buddy's uses. Maybe if we could somehow get together as a group, we could convince Roselli's to buy the coarse grind sliced. He told me that he has to order 100 cases at a time. Roselli's is a lot closer for me=about half the distance.

I went to Roselli's 2 weeks ago and bought 10# of coarse Margherita for $38.50. I slice it myself and throw it on my scale since I only use 1.5 oz per pizza. It slices nicely and I've pretty much mastered slicing them thin and consistently. I weighed them and actually got 11# for the price of 10#. Roselli's is awesome and they used to be the sole supplier to Buddy's way back when. They treated me great, even at 4:30 on a Friday when they were cleaning up shop to close for the weekend!