"I'm not going to put a player on this team that my manager is not ready for." Is he saying Viciedo is not ready for the big leagues or that Ozzie is not ready for Viciedo?Ozzie's not ready to bench anybody so that Viciedo can play every day.

steviestayfresh

06-28-2011, 11:46 AM

Ozzie is in love with Pierre and they "have no room for Viciedo". I mean you can't send down guys who are getting paid $12 and $12.5 million this year (Dunn and Rios). Plus, Dunn and Rios have more upside than Pierre. He's out of his prime and has clearly lost his step. He's a defensive liability. Bad reads on balls, no arm and hes not stealing many bases or getting thrown out most of the time. Pierre is clearly the guy to send down for Viciedo. You move Quentin to left and play Vicideo in right.

Lip Man 1

06-28-2011, 11:50 AM

I don't think you can send Pierre down without his permission because of his service time.

Lip

Sox

06-28-2011, 11:55 AM

KW remarked that he did not need anyone playing above their skill level?:scratch: But instead to play at their normal talent level? :o: If that's the mindset then you won't see this team winning a division anytime soon. Good grief.

:ohno

doublem23

06-28-2011, 12:13 PM

KW remarked that he did not need anyone playing above their skill level?:scratch: But instead to play at their normal talent level? :o: If that's the mindset then you won't see this team winning a division anytime soon. Good grief.

:ohno

I think he means if we get Dunn and Rios back to their career norms, we'll be fine, which is probably true. We've been anchored by those two for 3 months and we're still just a few games out of 1st.

Sox

06-28-2011, 12:17 PM

I think he means if we get Dunn and Rios back to their career norms, we'll be fine, which is probably true. We've been anchored by those two for 3 months and we're still just a few games out of 1st.

Thanks for clearing that up. :smile:When I first read the comment I didn't think that it sounded right, but I wasn't sure.

soxfan1965

06-28-2011, 02:08 PM

"I would make the same move tomorrow" - KW
Would JR agree with that? Or could he tell KW to make the same move, but with his own money, or else call Friendly Bob Adams.

dickallen15

06-28-2011, 02:16 PM

"I would make the same move tomorrow" - KW
Would JR agree with that? Or could he tell KW to make the same move, but with his own money, or else call Friendly Bob Adams.

His only hope is for Dunn to get better. Saying he made a huge mistake does nothing for anyone. He's saying what he is supposed to say. Does anyone really think KW would be candid about it?

I will say he's throwing Ozzie under the bus concerning Viciedo.

VMSNS

06-28-2011, 02:24 PM

His only hope is for Dunn to get better. Saying he made a huge mistake does nothing for anyone. He's saying what he is supposed to say. Does anyone really think KW would be candid about it?

I will say he's throwing Ozzie under the bus concerning Viciedo.

Absolutely. And Ozzie is doing the same thing back, although I think everyone under the sun can tell that Kenny wants Viciedo up here badly and Ozzie is just out to protect his buddy JP.

His only hope is for Dunn to get better. Saying he made a huge mistake does nothing for anyone. He's saying what he is supposed to say. Does anyone really think KW would be candid about it?

I will say he's throwing Ozzie under the bus concerning Viciedo.

Ozzie is throwing himself under the bus.

He's the last man in major league baseball to believe Pierre will somehow turn it around- after a .218 June with 1 stolen base- it's obvious that he won't. He can probably still hit overall- but without a running game- he's of no real value.

It's like watching Baines in his last season (in 2001, he hit .131 in 84 abs), or Fisk (in 1993 he hit .234, Angels stole 6 bases on him in 1 game). It's time.

The only other option KW has is to force the issue and cut Pierre, call up Dayan- without Ozzie endorsing the move.

CWSpalehoseCWS

06-28-2011, 02:45 PM

Throw Ozzie under the bus, fine with me. But does KW realize how pathetic he is making himself out to be? He's the GM, not Ozzie, use that damn authority. It amazes me how other teams have called up their top prospects this year and cut their under-performers. Cleveland called up Chisenhall who had less than impressive stats and gave Everett the boot. KC now has Moustakas and Hosmer playing every day. I really hope keeping him down at this point is just because of that service time issue, because Viciedo is ready with the bat and needs to be batting in the Sox lineup at this point.

Dan H

06-28-2011, 03:59 PM

His only hope is for Dunn to get better. Saying he made a huge mistake does nothing for anyone. He's saying what he is supposed to say. Does anyone really think KW would be candid about it?

I will say he's throwing Ozzie under the bus concerning Viciedo.

I agree with this. Williams is not going to admit a mistake right now. He certainly does want leave the impression he is giving in to fan pressure or losing a power sturggle with Ozzie. If he wants to make a significant change, he will just do it and not worry about announcing it to anyone ahead of time. Regardless, I am not overly optimistic about 2011.

tstrike2000

06-28-2011, 04:07 PM

Ozzie is throwing himself under the bus.

He's the last man in major league baseball to believe Pierre will somehow turn it around- after a .218 June with 1 stolen base- it's obvious that he won't. He can probably still hit overall- but without a running game- he's of no real value.

No, especially since he doesn't take a lot of walks.

hawkjt

06-28-2011, 04:16 PM

C'mon guys, this dual kabuki theatre from Ozzie and Kenny is obvious.
Kenny does not want to come out and say he is holding Viciedo down on the farm until that service date passes later this week. No GM will come out and spell that out,for fear of hurting the organization in the eyes of prospects. And Ozzie is playing along,both making vague statements about Dayan.
With the kind of big contracts the Sox are locked into the next few years,an additional year of a productive Dayan at a bargain is worth a few more days to those guys.

Now, I do not know for sure that Dayan will be up immediately,as I think it will depend on just how bad the team is going in a week or two,but they are trying to buy time. Injuries happen constantly in this league,and if they release Juan this week,and have someone go down on the weekend,they will rue the day they jumped the gun.

A DL stint by Gordo,or Lilly is not outside the realm either.
Bottom line, rushing up Dayan before his service date would be stupid when it is only days away,and if and when he does come,releasing Juan is a tough call,in the clubhouse especially,where he is very popular. Juan's career average of .316 in the second half is what they are still hoping for.

kravdog

06-28-2011, 05:03 PM

C'mon guys, this dual kabuki theatre from Ozzie and Kenny is obvious.
Kenny does not want to come out and say he is holding Viciedo down on the farm until that service date passes later this week. No GM will come out and spell that out,for fear of hurting the organization in the eyes of prospects. And Ozzie is playing along,both making vague statements about Dayan.

I really wish I thought they were this functional and that this were the truth!

JB98

06-28-2011, 06:35 PM

C'mon guys, this dual kabuki theatre from Ozzie and Kenny is obvious.
Kenny does not want to come out and say he is holding Viciedo down on the farm until that service date passes later this week. No GM will come out and spell that out,for fear of hurting the organization in the eyes of prospects. And Ozzie is playing along,both making vague statements about Dayan.
With the kind of big contracts the Sox are locked into the next few years,an additional year of a productive Dayan at a bargain is worth a few more days to those guys.

Now, I do not know for sure that Dayan will be up immediately,as I think it will depend on just how bad the team is going in a week or two,but they are trying to buy time. Injuries happen constantly in this league,and if they release Juan this week,and have someone go down on the weekend,they will rue the day they jumped the gun.

A DL stint by Gordo,or Lilly is not outside the realm either.
Bottom line, rushing up Dayan before his service date would be stupid when it is only days away,and if and when he does come,releasing Juan is a tough call,in the clubhouse especially,where he is very popular. Juan's career average of .316 in the second half is what they are still hoping for.

Are you predicting that one of them is going to get hurt? I'm confused. :scratch:

Lip Man 1

06-28-2011, 07:25 PM

I honestly don't know what to think about Dayan and his arbitration / free agent clock situation.

Gonzo of the Tribune told me when I asked him if Kenny was deliberately keeping him down until next week because of the arbitration clock, that he didn't think he'd qualify as a member of the super 2 class of players, so again I don't know.

Lip

Daver

06-28-2011, 07:36 PM

I honestly don't know what to think about Dayan and his arbitration / free agent clock situation.

Gonzo of the Tribune told me when I asked him if Kenny was deliberately keeping him down until next week because of the arbitration clock, that he didn't think he'd qualify as a member of the super 2 class of players, so again I don't know.

His trade value is much higher if he is putting up solid numbers in Charlotte than when he is struggling to hit MLB pitching and wandering around in left field.

34rancher

06-28-2011, 08:16 PM

I'm surprised no one really commented on the "lengthy closed door meeting with Ozzie and Dunn". That had to be a heck of a closed door meeting. In public they all seem to have a unified front, but I wonder what went on behind closed doors.

CWSpalehoseCWS

06-28-2011, 08:23 PM

I'm surprised no one really commented on the "lengthy closed door meeting with Ozzie and Dunn". That had to be a heck of a closed door meeting. In public they all seem to have a unified front, but I wonder what went on behind closed doors.

Probably something along the lines of: "You're not starting in any of the next three games."

Although watch Dunn get a start at 1B because Konerko, the best hitter on the team, needs a rest according to Ozzie.

Soxfest

06-28-2011, 09:15 PM

Excuses for a sub .500 team are old KW do your job and get best players on the 25 man roster!:angry:

MtGrnwdSoxFan

06-28-2011, 09:17 PM

Probably something along the lines of: "You're not starting in any of the next three games."

Although watch Dunn get a start at 1B because Konerko, the best hitter on the team, needs a rest according to Ozzie.

Yeah, he needs to be fresh for the annual "get thrashed by the AL Central" stretch run.

Brian26

06-28-2011, 09:54 PM

His trade value is much higher if he is putting up solid numbers in Charlotte than when he is struggling to hit MLB pitching and wandering around in left field.

The biggest holes the Sox have are on the offensive side. Assuming they try to make a deal in the next 32 days, can they get something back that's going to help them more than Viciedo could with the bat?

Tragg

06-28-2011, 10:45 PM

The biggest holes the Sox have are on the offensive side. Assuming they try to make a deal in the next 32 days, can they get something back that's going to help them more than Viciedo could with the bat?

If sitting him in Charlotte fools the other scouts as Daver suggests it will, we should get a comparable player - perhaps someone with less power, but who can still hit and also run and field would be nice.

Daver

06-28-2011, 11:58 PM

The biggest holes the Sox have are on the offensive side. Assuming they try to make a deal in the next 32 days, can they get something back that's going to help them more than Viciedo could with the bat?

He'd get a better return then Dunn, and DH is the only position he has the skill to play, and I have my doubts about that.

sullythered

06-29-2011, 12:10 AM

His trade value is much higher if he is putting up solid numbers in Charlotte than when he is struggling to hit MLB pitching and wandering around in left field.

Except that he hasn't struggled to hit MLB pitching.

russ99

06-29-2011, 12:48 AM

Except that he hasn't struggled to hit MLB pitching.

I guess you didn't watch Viciedo hit last year. No walks, tons of K's and very susceptible to curve balls, much like Alexei his first year. He did well, until the word got around on how to pitch to him. He did do better in September, but that wasn't exactly competitive baseball...

That's not to say he can't get better, but I'm with Kenny in his not the finished product quote.

Let's put it this way,would you prefer a better Viciedo next year after a season in AAA and a call up in September or would you stunt his development to placate the "Pierre sucks" masses?

Nellie_Fox

06-29-2011, 12:49 AM

I mean you can't send down guys who are getting paid $12 and $12.5 million this year (Dunn and Rios). Plus, Dunn and Rios have more upside than Pierre. He's out of his prime and has clearly lost his step. He's a defensive liability. Bad reads on balls, no arm and hes not stealing many bases or getting thrown out most of the time. Pierre is clearly the guy to send down for Viciedo. You move Quentin to left and play Vicideo in right.
Here we go again.

Neither Dunn, Rios, nor Pierre can be "sent down." They have completed five years of major-league service time. They'd have to clear waivers and then agree to go to the minors instead of becoming a free agent, which any of them would be crazy to do. While they might not get claimed on waivers because of their salary, if they became a free agent they know damn well that some team would take the no-risk move of grabbing them for MBL minimum salary and let the Sox pay the rest of their contract.

sullythered

06-29-2011, 12:53 AM

I guess you didn't watch Viciedo hit last year. No walks, tons of K's and very susceptible to curve balls, much like Alexei his first year. He did well, until the word got around on how to pitch to him. He did do better in September, but that wasn't exactly competitive baseball...

That's not to say he can't get better, but I'm with Kenny in his not the finished product quote.

Let's put it this way,would you prefer a better Viciedo next year after a season in AAA and a call up in September or would you stunt his development to placate the "Pierre sucks" masses?

Wow, all that happened in 100 at bats, huh? When I was watching, he hit for a high batting average and OPS.

NLaloosh

06-29-2011, 12:58 AM

Viciedo is doing well in AAA but he is not blowing the place up. It's not like he's hitting .370 with a .480 OBP and 25 home runs.

In the bigs everyday they would expose he's weaknesses and you'd have to figure that his production is going to drop about 25% which doesn't make him all that great.

Also, I find it hard to believe that he can currently play an adequate RF in the bigs.

Nellie_Fox

06-29-2011, 01:03 AM

Wow, all that happened in 100 at bats, huh? When I was watching, he hit for a high batting average and OPS.It was the trend. Late in that 100 AB, pitchers had discovered that he'd swing at absolutely anything and were getting him out with regularity.

He walked twice and struck out 25 times in those 106 PA.

sullythered

06-29-2011, 01:30 AM

It was the trend. Late in that 100 AB, pitchers had discovered that he'd swing at absolutely anything and were getting him out with regularity.

He walked twice and struck out 25 times in those 106 PA.

Viciedo performed better over the second half of his 106 PA than the first half. That's a good trend. Plus his OPS was better than almost everybody currently on the team.

The kid can rake.

sullythered

06-29-2011, 01:35 AM

Viciedo is doing well in AAA but he is not blowing the place up. It's not like he's hitting .370 with a .480 OBP and 25 home runs.

In the bigs everyday they would expose he's weaknesses and you'd have to figure that his production is going to drop about 25% which doesn't make him all that great.

Also, I find it hard to believe that he can currently play an adequate RF in the bigs.

Actually, most successful major leaguers end up with numbers pretty similar to what they put up in the minors.

SoxSpeed22

06-29-2011, 01:38 AM

The Sox have had problems with rushing their prospects, I'm okay with them not rushing Viciedo, since this is his first year playing outfield.

Daver

06-29-2011, 01:40 AM

The Sox have had problems with rushing their prospects

No way.

Nellie_Fox

06-29-2011, 01:41 AM

Viciedo performed better over the second half of his 106 PA than the first half. That's a good trend. Plus his OPS was better than almost everybody currently on the team.

The kid can rake.It's hard to really say anything based on splits of 40 and 66 plate appearances, but I stand by what I said about pitchers discovering that he'd swing at anything. Strikeout splits were 4/21. That's 21 strikeouts in 66 plate appearances. That's positively Dunnesque.

BainesHOF

06-29-2011, 02:46 AM

This season is shot. Why not start giving Viciedo experience at the Major League level now? He's earned it.

It's not like he can be worse than Pierre.

Dan H

06-29-2011, 02:53 AM

The only reason there is a debate about Viciedo is because the White Sox stink. If they had any offense, they'd be in first place and no one would be talking about Viciedo. Many fans are just desperate for change and an acknowledgment that this team is no good. But no real changes will probably happen until this dreadful season is over. And I think this pubic debate between Kenny and Ozzie should mean they both should go. But wait! Maybe they can still win the BP Cup!

sullythered

06-29-2011, 03:13 AM

I don't understand the fallacy about "rushing" prospects. Most star hitters (which we are hoping Viciedo can be) come up around his age. He has progressed each year, and is dominating at the level below the majors. 22 with a couple years progressing through the minors is perfectly reasonable, and very common throughout the league.

cws05champ

06-29-2011, 10:26 AM

Viciedo is doing well in AAA but he is not blowing the place up. It's not like he's hitting .370 with a .480 OBP and 25 home runs.

In the bigs everyday they would expose he's weaknesses and you'd have to figure that his production is going to drop about 25% which doesn't make him all that great.

Also, I find it hard to believe that he can currently play an adequate RF in the bigs.
He started out going .250 in April (he's a traditional slow starter like Alexei), but since then hit .349 in May with 6 HR, 1.025 OPS and .377 with a .947 OPS in June.

I'm not one of the people calling for Pierre to be released, because his salary is sunk. He usually hits better in the 2nd half of the season and has proven he can play sparingly and still have an impact. In fact it may help his legs to play 2-3 times per week.

I still think Viciedo should be brought up to DH against LHP, and play RF 3 times per week.

Williams believes current team missing "Chicago tough" edge. More to come on whitesox.com, along with Double Duty Classic coverage.

Looks like we Da Coach!

What's next? "Bear weather"?

Lip Man 1

06-29-2011, 04:48 PM

Well Kenny put this club together and Ozzie apparently got rid of anybody with any gonads on the club in the past...after all he's proclaimed loudly and often to the mainstream media that he's the "leader in the clubhouse..."

Buehrle, Konerko, Thome, Dye...all good people, all class acts, all good players, all guys who lead by example....nobody there to speak out, speak up, take a player aside, break a toilet, nothing.

When AJ hit the home run against the Nationals and the bench acted like they were brain dead zombies, that's all you need to know.

Lip

doublem23

06-29-2011, 04:51 PM

Good Lord

:stars:

MtGrnwdSoxFan

06-29-2011, 04:56 PM

Well Kenny put this club together and Ozzie apparently got rid of anybody with any gonads on the club in the past...after all he's proclaimed loudly and often to the mainstream media that he's the "leader in the clubhouse..."

Buehrle, Konerko, Thome, Dye...all good people, all class acts, all good players, all guys who lead by example....nobody there to speak out, speak up, take a player aside, break a toilet, nothing.

When AJ hit the home run against the Nationals and the bench acted like they were brain dead zombies, that's all you need to know.

Lip

AJ sure looked grindy when he slammed the ball after Lillibridge took his sweet time getting to that ball in the 13th. I think AJ even said "**** it, I give up" as far as expressive displays of encouragement.

This team needs less suck, a lot less blow, MUCH less lose, and a lot more sack and win.

Lip Man 1

06-29-2011, 04:59 PM

How double?

Now apparently guys are openly dogging it and outright showing they don't give a ****.

That's not an issue that could be corrected internally?

I've been around clubhouses most of my adult life, at all levels, high school, college the pro's. I've seen enough evidence personally that guys like that, vocal leaders, glue guys call them whatever you like can make a real difference. I don't believe in that 'Chicago-tough' crap but I do in having some guys take care of things themselves.

It always means more when comments come from somebody going through what you are going through. In this case that's a fellow player...not Ozzie, not Kenny.

I always take to heart more from somebody in the business when they tell me something even if I don't agree with it. Comments from outsiders or from a listener or viewer are nice and have some value but it means more to me when those same comments come from another reporter, or broadcaster.

Lip

hi im skot

06-29-2011, 05:07 PM

What an embarrassment.

Lip Man 1

06-29-2011, 05:40 PM

Skot:

I don't know if you are directing that comment towards me personally or to the topic itself.

Can you explain a little if it is directed towards me, why it's an embarrassment to think along those lines.

Lip

hi im skot

06-29-2011, 05:48 PM

Skot:

I don't know if you are directing that comment towards me personally or to the topic itself.

Can you explain a little if it is directed towards me, why it's an embarrassment to think along those lines.

Lip

This team in an embarrassment. My comment has nothing to do with you or anyone else in the thread, but simply the team - from the front office down to the guys taking the field.

GoSox2K3

06-29-2011, 06:49 PM

This team in an embarrassment. My comment has nothing to do with you or anyone else in the thread, but simply the team - from the front office down to the guys taking the field.

Sad, but true. :anon:

fram40

06-29-2011, 07:04 PM

This team in an embarrassment. My comment has nothing to do with you or anyone else in the thread, but simply the team - from the front office down to the guys taking the field.

+1.

Embarrassing and frustrating as hell to watch

Lip Man 1

06-29-2011, 07:20 PM

Skot:

No problem, just wasn't sure.

I agree there seems to be an undercurrent of stuff going on that just makes you think it's not right, for whatever reason or reasons...front the front office, to the field manager to the coaches to the players. Channeling David Wells, "it's bad karma..."

Williams believes current team missing "Chicago tough" edge. More to come on whitesox.com, along with Double Duty Classic coverage.

Good gracious...hope that doesn't mean trading more young players for mediocre veterans that "play hard". That's the garb that put us in this mess.

sullythered

06-29-2011, 08:51 PM

Good gracious...hope that doesn't mean trading more young players for mediocre veterans that "play hard". That's the garb that put us in this mess.

No its not, really. We only have one guy who fits that description. What put us in this mess is primarily 2 massively underacheiving veterans who absolutely do not play (or work) hard. If those 2 guys performed to their abilities this year, we wouldn't really be worried about our one grindy bad veteran, because we would be winning the division.

Vernam

06-29-2011, 08:53 PM

I think he means if we get Dunn and Rios back to their career norms, we'll be fine, which is probably true. We've been anchored by those two for 3 months and we're still just a few games out of 1st.

Now that you mention it, Dunn does remind me of Ron Burgundy.

http://www.cipherdom.com/images/photos/ron-burgundy.jpg

Vernam

Tragg

06-29-2011, 09:52 PM

No its not, really. We only have one guy who fits that description. What put us in this mess is primarily 2 massively underacheiving veterans who absolutely do not play (or work) hard. If those 2 guys performed to their abilities this year, we wouldn't really be worried about our one grindy bad veteran, because we would be winning the division.

Disagree - because if we had hung on to some bullets that we squandered, or made more inspired deals for players that perform (not that much of a reach because, after all, it's US trading for the veteran player, so we should get some predictable production if we could scout), we'd have some ammunition so that we could work around the non-performing veterans and other mistakes.

Dunn's year is an aberration; but Rios isn't that far from the norm (ops over 800 only twice in 8 seasons; ops+ over 100 only 4 times in 8 years), although this season is particularly poor.