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Thanks to everyone who took part in the poll! There were 59 responses submitted. The responses included many long-time members, some newer members and some posters who just happened to drop in. I expect this group is typical of the sort of people who are here over any one week period.

Results and analysis begin here, but will be continued in a number of other threads. This thread presents only the base results, with no correlations made to unrelated questions, and only for the demographics and misc. parts of the poll.

Two things you should keep in mind:

1) CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION. This thread only contains a few correlated questions, but please keep in mind that the results are solely correlative.

2) SAMPLE SIZE IS SMALL. It's probably not a good idea to generalize these results too much, especially beyond the forum community.

I made the graphs smaller this time, but if any are squished on your screen, you can right-click to open the image in its own tab. OK, let's begin!

Similar to 2012, but with a few less people who still claim to have their sanity.

The average respondent has been here more than 10 years! In 2012, the average respondent was here for a little over 6 years. The big increase makes sense considering that 47/59 survey takers were already here 5 years ago.

The two more recent satellite communities were well-represented. This is particularly impressive for Shadow Vale, considering that it's now been closed for six years! We did not ask this in 2012.

We did not ask this in 2012 either.

Each bar is one member. This graph makes it apparent what a high portion of their lives many users have spent connected to the forums.

The bigger take-away, though, is how old we are now. The average member is now almost 32 and was 21 when they joined. In 2012, the average member was 26 and was 20 when they joined. Also, in 2012, we still had a decent number of teenagers around: not so much anymore. This is to be contrasted with the early days of the forums, when there were maybe even a majority of very young members.

My guess is this is a reflection of bigger societal changes. But this raises the possibility that Spiderweb games are attracting a different demographic than they used to. Of course, it may just be that we've all gotten older and more boring and less likely to attract young people ourselves

New to this year's survey.

The "Nonbinary" column's full name (which wouldn't fit) is:

Nonbinary, Female and Nonbinary, None but Male Presenting

This question did not exist in a serviceable format in 2012. There were just a handful of people who didn't identify as male on that survey.

Now this question gets interesting. I consulted with some other users on how to best phrase this question and its answers, and they suggested I take out the third answer. I left it in because I really didn't want anyone to feel like there was not an adequate description for them.

Based on the answer tuples, however, I hypothesize that that answer ("I prefer neither") ended up being used for a very different purpose than what I expected. It was chosen almost entirely by members who identify as male and as straight (and who are regular or semiregular posters). While it's possible that SW has a bunch of trans men who aren't open about their status and don't like the term "trans", that seems unlikely. My guess is it was used mostly by people who are accurately described as cis, but who are not used to labelling themselves. (See Markedness.)

Unfortunately, this means we don't have any solid numbers when it comes to trans survey responses. However, I bet there are still going to be some pretty interesting correlations with the "I prefer neither" category!

The "None Given" column's full name (which wouldn't fit) is:

None Given, None, Asexual, or Not Sure Yet

These numbers are pretty similar to 2012.

These are a bit higher. The "Yes" category includes anyone who:

* chose any non-binary gender, or

* chose Trans, or

* chose any non-Straight orientation

Slightly more of us have moved on from the single life. I guess that comes with age.

Compared to 2012, there are about 10 more people in urban locations and about 10 fewer people in rural locations. This is probably just explained by the new age demographics.

Atheism and non-denominational theism are slightly more popular than in 2012, while the explicitly religious options are less popular, particularly the "extremely serious" option.

These have all progressed slightly, as you'd expect from the age shift.

A dramatic shift here: about 15 fewer students and about 15 more full-time employed people. That alone might account for the lower activity level on the boards.

This graph presents family wealth, and current wealth, with the size of each circle indicating how many members reported that particular combination. Yellow circles are people who have maintained a similar wealth level (or who are receiving financial support from their family). Green circles are people who have climbed the wealth ladder, and orange circles are those of us who have fallen down at least one rung.

The five categories, left to right and top to bottom, were: Poor, Working Class, Lower Middle Class, Upper Middle Class, Very Wealthy. The average respondent is and was Lower Middle Class, as they reported things, which is a bit less wealthy than was the case in 2012.

A new question this year.

Also a new question. The answers might have been very different 5 years ago, to say nothing of 10 or 15.

All right, here's the dreaded political views question! If you don't like the labels, ignore them. As was the case five years ago, the results themselves aren't very interesting, but they may still be able to suggest some slight tendencies when correlated with other questions.

The results are fairly similar to 2012. There has been a slight leftward shift on social views (more Libertarian answers and fewer Conservative)

Also pretty similar to 2012.

A new question.

Also a new question.

A third new transportation question. Really looking forward to correlations here.

I didn't make a graph for the arrest history question because only 7 of us have been arrested. (It did not correlate with gun use, either :P)

In 2012, this question was "pick one" instead of pick as many as you like, so all of these numbers are much higher. The average user picked 3 genres this time. Classical, electronic, and jazz benefited from this change the most.

About the same as 2012.

Also remarkably similar.

New question. They were all fairly close for the first couple of days, but water really shot up in the last 20 or so responses.

Clear favourite here.

In retrospect, maybe this shouldn't have surprised me. It still did. A landslide for cats.

This even bigger landslide definitely didn't surprise me.

Okay, here's a bunch of new questions with perhaps predictable answers:

There were no vegans.

Is happiness a warm gun? Find out, when the correlations come out to play!

No wonder "What are you reading?" is our longest-running active thread.

Pretty evenly distributed.

Yup.

Excuuuuuuse me, EverQuest.

I'm out of witty comments. I mean, OK, that may have happened a while ago...

No one chose 1972 - 1984.

Whew! Okay, that's all the questions outside of the ones about Spiderweb games. Those will probably go up tomorrow, to be followed later by correlations. Woo.

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Aging SW population speculation: I wonder how much this had to do with who Jeff's games appeal to? I mean, I can see adults who grew up playing games in DOS or on the SNES finding more lasting appeal in Spiderweb games than kids who grew up playing the PS2 or something. The market for Jeff's games still exists, it's just gotten older. Or maybe it's just that message board forums like this one is are now an old-school aspect of the internet that don't appeal to the "kids these days" as much other forms of social media?

Birth order: what is it about SW that attracts oldest-children in particular?

Oh, the driving question! LOL. I really wanted an option for "Cautious and still unsafe" but it wasn't available.

Hogwarts houses: wow! That's a crazy majority favorite. Why?

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I have a car, but avoid driving because of all the accident aftermaths I've seen. Two were cars rear ended leaving parking lots because the driver behind them was watching traffic and not the car ahead of him/her. A car made a right turn over a sidewalk and ten feet of gravel into a sound barrier wall. Another car was struck, knocked over a sidewalk, a ten foot drainage ditch, and then into a sound barrier wall. Then there was the guy waiting to be an accident as he was writing on a clip board using his steering wheel for a desk top.

It may be newer players only come here to post when they have a problem with a game and decide they want to continue instead of playing another game.

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A car made a right turn over a sidewalk and ten feet of gravel into a sound barrier wall. Another car was struck, knocked over a sidewalk, a ten foot drainage ditch, and then into a sound barrier wall.

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Now this question gets interesting. I consulted with some other users on how to best phrase this question and its answers, and they suggested I take out the third answer. I left it in because I really didn't want anyone to feel like there was not an adequate description for them.

Based on the answer tuples, however, I hypothesize that that answer ("I prefer neither") ended up being used for a very different purpose than what I expected. It was chosen almost entirely by members who identify as male and as straight (and who are regular or semiregular posters). While it's possible that SW has a bunch of trans men who aren't open about their status and don't like the term "trans", that seems unlikely. My guess is it was used mostly by people who are accurately described as cis, but who are not used to labelling themselves. (SeeMarkedness.)

Unfortunately, this means we don't have any solid numbers when it comes to trans survey responses. However, I bet there are still going to be some pretty interesting correlations with the "I prefer neither" category!

FWIW, I was one of the responses that chose "I prefer neither", and its presence means a lot to me. Cis people not wanting a word for cis to exist is a thing, and surely the majority of those responses to the poll, but people that are clearly not cis and also clearly different from trans people are also a thing. Or maybe it's just me. Still though.

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FWIW, I was one of the responses that chose "I prefer neither", and its presence means a lot to me. Cis people not wanting a word for cis to exist is a thing, and surely the majority of those responses to the poll, but people that are clearly not cis and also clearly different from trans people are also a thing. Or maybe it's just me. Still though.

I'm perfectly fine with the word cisgender (and its shortened form) existing. I don't have a problem with someone identifying me as cis. I just don't call myself cis. I also don't commonly refer to myself in the third person. That would make a fine poll question, by the way. Self-reference seems to be far more common on these forums than outside the door where we leave our sanity.

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That's rather interesting. I'd probably be one of very few (if not only or extremly very few who answered) asexual, but answered no none the less to identifying with the LGBT community. (There's a bit of a split there with some people)

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I'm perfectly fine with the word cisgender (and its shortened form) existing. I don't have a problem with someone identifying me as cis. I just don't call myself cis.

The problem with choosing the "neither" option when you are cis is that you provide inaccurate information about yourself and (far more importantly) overwhelm the accurate responses of an often ignored group with particular characteristics. Also, it's a little bit... weird. Like, Dikiyoba doesn't particularly identify with Dikiyoba's age (it's just a number), but Dikiyoba still fills out forms with Dikiyoba's actual age, instead of "opting out" by claiming to be 5 years old.

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Also asexual. I chose "straight" for sexual orientation, which means I'm not in the "Any LGBT Identification" analysis. Asexuality really doesn't map to the English pop culture- propagated conventional models of companionship, romance, and physical intimacy. It strikes me that it's much the same problem as was brought up during the survey, that the cultural context maps poorly to other cultures. Except asexuality isn't a culture. Is sexuality? Hm.

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The sexual orientation question had an "other" choice available which was used by at least one person to enter "Asexual". It also could have been used to enter "Asexual and straight" or any other term or terms that somebody felt was appropriate. That was the whole point of making that choice available.

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The problem with choosing the "neither" option when you are cis is that you provide inaccurate information about yourself and (far more importantly) overwhelm the accurate responses of an often ignored group with particular characteristics. Also, it's a little bit... weird. Like, Dikiyoba doesn't particularly identify with Dikiyoba's age (it's just a number), but Dikiyoba still fills out forms with Dikiyoba's actual age, instead of "opting out" by claiming to be 5 years old.

Weird, you say? I do identify myself as weird sometimes. I just don't identify as cis or trans, thus neither. I accurately answered as to how I self-identify. Answering 5 for age when one is an adult is being intentionally deceptive. Choosing not to give one's age is perfectly acceptable behavior (though a poll might make the answer required.) If you want to fault the poll for allowing an answer of neither then feel free. Personally, I think it provides useful information on how people self-identify.

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I just don't identify as cis or trans, thus neither. I accurately answered as to how I self-identify.

boy i really wish i identified as a cis woman, because being a trans one is a huge pain.

cisgender and transgender have a clean mapping to two different definitions:

cisgender: a person who identifies with the gender they were assigned at birth (ie a man that is AMAB).

transgender: a person who does not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth (ie a man that is AFAB, or a nonbinary person, or a genderfluid person).

Now unless I'm missing something, mathematically that covers 100% of the population. I guess you could make an argument for questioning/not sure people, but I strongly doubt that is the case here given the numbers seen in the survey results (if it is, hey, that seems like a great thing to put in the comments field of the survey, to explain!).

I don't like the term trans. I don't. Maybe that makes me an awful person, but I hate that I have to live the rest of my life feeling like I'm a woman* instead of a woman. However, that is what I am. I am a trans woman. Yeah you bet I'm salty over that.

As much as I dislike using that label, for the purposes of accurate demographic information yeah I'm going to fill out the survey in the fashion that most accurately describes myself. Anything else is providing inaccurate info and bringing into question the validity of the survey results. Bad data is worse than no data.

Edited July 30, 2017 by sylaein other news, i'm on legit HRT as of today :) #whyDoesntInsuranceCoverEstradiolValerateDearGodThisIsExpensiveGirlJuice

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I do not identify as Cis (as in it is extremely unlikely that you will hear/read me apply that label to myself), but, it is accurate as a label for me and so I selected it for the purposes of the poll, just like Sylae choose a term that she doesn't particularly like. Being fortunate enough to be in the position that I am in, the label is 100% accurate and has no emotional context to me, it is just not a term that I use outside of answering demographic information.

I do believe that if you are going to answer a friendly poll that you should provide as accurate information as possible. While this poll is unlikely to effect anything, poll, surveys and samples have huge impacts on the goods and services that we are offered and the more garbage fed into them, the more inaccurate they are and the poorer the decisions that will be made from them.

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cisgender and transgender have a clean mapping to two different definitions:

cisgender: a person who identifies with the gender they were assigned at birth (ie a man that is AMAB).

transgender: a person who does not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth (ie a man that is AFAB, or a nonbinary person, or a genderfluid person).

...

As much as I dislike using that label, for the purposes of accurate demographic information yeah I'm going to fill out the survey in the fashion that most accurately describes myself.

I know how I present and so I know how to answer such questions (cis man) just like I know how to write down my nationality in a form. But I don't identify as a man any more than I identify with the entity which issues my travel papers. In fact, I loathe that entity as well as masculinity. That doesn't make me genderqueer for any practical purpose. Sure, I've occasionally been called "miss" or been the target of homophobia though I'm not gay but people who aren't being assholes have no issue identifying me as a man.
Nobody defines nationality in terms of identity so why do you do so when it comes to gender and stuff? Identity issues are subjective, not demographic data.
I don't understand what's going on with identity in your culture but it sure seems toxic.

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I just don't identify as cis or trans, thus neither. I accurately answered as to how I self-identify. Answering 5 for age when one is an adult is being intentionally deceptive. Choosing not to give one's age is perfectly acceptable behavior

This and the other posts above point to the crux of the problem as the potential difference between

what you identify as vs. what you are

"What you are" is a tricky question though for issues where not everyone has the same understanding. (msazad posted while I was writing, but I think that is also the answer to why identity is a big thing in our culture.) I would instead propose the dichotomy between

what you identify as vs. what some other person identifies you as

Basically, I want the survey results to be as accurate and useful as possible, but it also seems like it would be hypocritical, at least, to tell Sudanna that "I prefer neither" is acceptable, but to tell Soul of Wit that it is not.

One of the things I originally considered doing, to get accurate information while avoiding mislabellings, was avoiding traditional labels altogether on the cis/trans and orientation questions, and instead asking some variation of:

Do you identify with the same gender you were assigned at birth?

and

What gender(s) are you primarily attracted to?

However, I suspect that those would have had their own unanticipated problems.

(Also, FWIW, msazad, the line of mine you quoted was in direct response to Vespucci, and the situation they discussed has nothing to do with the definition you gave, so I think that pretty clearly is not what the problem was.)

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The sexual orientation question had an "Other" option that let you specify any answer you desired. So I am not really sure how a "clean mapping to two different definitions" has much to say about that one?

1 hour ago, msazad said:

FWIW, most people aren't assigned a gender at birth. They're identified as male or female (which is different from gender) based on traits which are in most cases not ambiguous.

Aren't they? You can call it assigning sex, sure, but since that has in most cases a 1:1 correlation with the gender the child is raised as, wouldn't that also count as a gender assignment?

1 hour ago, msazad said:

And how do I tell which gender I identify with, assuming I have to pick one?

On a practical level, most people already have an answer to that question. If you don't, you could choose either to not answer the question, or to fill in an "Other" answer that said so.

Let me ask you this. What would you prefer?

1) How do you think we should be talking about gender and sexuality?

2) What is your suggestion for how those questions could be phrased on a survey?

What I am hearing right now, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you find those topics more complicated and nuanced than the survey questions (and I certainly agree with that) and that you don't think there is any way to talk about them that will work for everyone. Is the suggestion, then, that we shouldn't talk or ask about them at all?

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Nobody defines nationality in terms of identity so why do you do so when it comes to gender and stuff? Identity issues are subjective, not demographic data.
I don't understand what's going on with identity in your culture but it sure seems toxic.

1 hour ago, msazad said:

FWIW, most people aren't assigned a gender at birth. They're identified as male or female (which is different from gender) based on traits which are in most cases not ambiguous.

At this point, the science is so clear that denying trans people is pretty close to the same thing as being a flat earther. But, heavens, I wouldn't want to be toxic.

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Nobody defines nationality in terms of identity so why do you do so when it comes to gender and stuff? Identity issues are subjective, not demographic data.

I don't understand what's going on with identity in your culture but it sure seems toxic.

Maybe this is just a language issue (maybe a lot of things people are arguing about in this thread are language issues), but people absolutely do talk about nationality in terms of identity. There are many people who identify as members of nations to which they don't necessarily hold citizenship (the descendants of emigrants, for example), and there are nations that have no single uncontested legal entity capable of defining who does and doesn't belong to them in the first place. The 19th-century European model of the nation-state is far from the only form of nationality that exists.

You seem to be trying to draw a line between subjectivity and demographic data, but in reality they overlap all the time: demographic data is seldom 100% objective. To give another example, numerous religions have active internal debates about who counts as a member, but census forms still rely on self-reporting to find demographic data on religion within a population.

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On a practical level, most people already have an answer to that question. If you don't, you could choose either to not answer the question, or to fill in an "Other" answer that said so.

On a practical level, I answer a different question because I think there's less risk of being misunderstood that way.

Quote

What I am hearing right now, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you find those topics more complicated and nuanced than the survey questions (and I certainly agree with that) and that you don't think there is any way to talk about them that will work for everyone. Is the suggestion, then, that we shouldn't talk or ask about them at all?

I don't think the topics are inherently complicated but I do think that that the way you talk about identity complicates them.

Asking the question is not a problem as long as you allow people not to answer or to answer something along the lines of "other". The problem is in my mind more about what you think you're going to be able to conclude from the answers. This is of course not unique to issues of gender and sex.

29 minutes ago, Two Candies said:

1) How do you think we should be talking about gender and sexuality?

2) What is your suggestion for how those questions could be phrased on a survey?

I don't think you should do anything but getting rid of this identity stuff or relegating it to a separate question that is specifically about the way people identify would be an improvement, along the lines of the "what you identify as vs. what some other person identifies you as" dichotomy you proposed upthread.

Not conflating gender and sex might also be an improvement. But I guess that depends on your audience.

29 minutes ago, Two Candies said:

Aren't they? You can call it assigning sex, sure, but since that has in most cases a 1:1 correlation with the gender the child is raised as, wouldn't that also count as a gender assignment?

Observation isn't assignment. And the actual gender assignment happens long after the birth.

Arguing that different things are the same because of a strong correlation is basically essentialism.

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Observation isn't assignment. And the actual gender assignment happens long after the birth.

Frequently it begins even before birth. What's picking out pink or blue decor for a nursery, or a baby shower with a giant "It's a Boy" poster on the wall, if not a form of gender assignment by the parents?

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On a practical level, I answer a different question because I think there's less risk of being misunderstood that way.

I ask A. You have the option to type in your own answer, even specifying a problem with the question. Instead, you answer question B, without saying anything to indicate that you are answering B instead of A.

I understand the concern of an answer being misinterpreted. But how in the world does answering a different question without indicating so reduce the risk of being misunderstood compared to just saying what you are doing?

4 minutes ago, msazad said:

Not conflating gender and sex might also be an improvement. But I guess that depends on your audience.

The survey didn't ask about sex at all. What in the world is the possible conflation here?

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Maybe this is just a language issue (maybe a lot of things people are arguing about in this thread are language issues), but people absolutely do talk about nationality in terms of identity.

When filling forms in which you're simply asked about about your nationality, you're not supposed to provide the country your folks came from as an answer.

So far as I can tell, the people who actually talk about nationality in terms of identity rather tend to be right-wing bigots than immigrants.

12 minutes ago, Lilith said:

To give another example, numerous religions have active internal debates about who counts as a member, but census forms still rely on self-reporting to find demographic data on religion within a population.

It's not a given that it's internal debates which should determine who counts as a member. People don't even agree about what is or isn't a religion.

If you're going to poll people, you'll have to rely on self-reporting anyway. The issue is whether people will answer based on whatever (if anything) they identify with or based on what they're inferring about social expectations.

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When filling forms in which you're simply asked about about your nationality, you're not supposed to provide the country your folks came from as an answer.

Yeah, this is definitely a linguistic issue. Here in Australia, a form that wants your citizenship will specifically ask for citizenship; a form that asks for nationality will usually provide space for you to enter multiple answers and doesn't expect you to answer only with the nations you're a citizen of.

Quote

So far as I can tell, the people who actually talk about nationality in terms of identity rather tend to be right-wing bigots than immigrants.

It's not just a question of bigots or immigrants. Members of indigenous nations such as Australian Aboriginal or Native American communities often also consider themselves to belong to a nation separate from that of the state in which they hold citizenship.

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I understand the concern of an answer being misinterpreted. But how in the world does answering a different question without indicating so reduce the risk of being misunderstood compared to just saying what you are doing?

When faced with a multiple-choice form, saying what you're doing often isn't an even option. And when it is, it often is a waste of time.

10 minutes ago, Two Candies said:

The survey didn't ask about sex at all. What in the world is the possible conflation here?

Gender questions asked by non-academics from North America are usually best interpreted as being also about sex unless otherwise specified.

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When faced with a multiple-choice form, saying what you're doing often isn't an even option. And when it is, it often is a waste of time.

Gender questions asked by non-academics from North America are usually best interpreted as being also about sex unless otherwise specified.

At this point, you're not even talking about the survey anymore. "Other" with a fill-in explanation was an option here. I guess you could think it was a waste of time, but I'm not sure why — it would be read and understood just like any other answer.

And assuming that someone meant something other than what they said and then criticizing them for meaning that is maybe not a good move?

You might want to stop and rethink all of this. You're drifting farther and farther away from sense here.

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So, msazad, you are worried about me making incorrect assumptions about your answers, because you are making incorrect asssumptions about me. Awesome.

5 minutes ago, msazad said:

Gender questions asked by non-academics from North America are usually best interpreted as being also about sex unless otherwise specified.

I suppose the presence of the "Nonbinary" and free responses options -- and the question right after it, which would make no sense from a sex/gender conflated perspective -- don't count as "otherwise specified"?

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cisgender and transgender have a clean mapping to two different definitions:

cisgender: a person who identifies with the gender they were assigned at birth (ie a man that is AMAB).

transgender: a person who does not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth (ie a man that is AFAB, or a nonbinary person, or a genderfluid person).

Now unless I'm missing something, mathematically that covers 100% of the population.

This is only occasionally what transgender means in theory, and never all that it means in practice. Regardless: I and at least several other respondents are neither(not just "yeah i'm cis but eh") and I at least resent attempts at annexation.

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FWIW, most people aren't assigned a gender at birth. They're identified as male or female (which is different from gender) based on traits which are in most cases not ambiguous.

I'm all for kids not being assigned gender at birth, but that is definitely a thing that happens. You can talk about oh but the box on the birth certificate says "sex" not "gender" but for the vast majority of the population those two match up.

And you know what? That's fine. For almost all people the system works out fine. Maybe I'm a bad trans for saying this, but I am fine with a system that has "assigned at birth" as a thing. (what it does need, however, is an easy way to say "oh wait we made a mistake that's not accurate" and a culture that is ok with making said mistake (and not making such a fuss about not conforming to gender norms and all that (admittedly these are big steps from where humanity is now))).

(aside: Of course, I'm also the kind of trans who doesn't understand why getting that marker amended on a birth certificate is a big deal. Like, I'm fine with getting it changed, but I don't see the need. Like, that was what they thought when I popped out, so they gave me an M and a deadname. Oops.)

2 hours ago, Sudanna said:

This is only occasionally what transgender means in theory, and never all that it means in practice. Regardless: I and at least several other respondents are neither(not just "yeah i'm cis but eh") and I at least resent attempts at annexation.

Fair point, but do you have a better way to phrase the question that

is accessible for people whose primary language isn't english? (the cis/trans definitions I used are, while not 100% accurate, basically what pops up if one were to google those terms).

provides a useful set of data that can be worked with? (the primary purpose of a survey, which has been mentioned millions of times.

I mean, there could be an option for every gender identity under the sun. It would have a billionty options and probably an Other box for the ones that got missed. Would it be super duper accurate? yes. Would it be in any way at all usable? not at all.

So the goal is to find a compromise between the unusability of:

Dropdown with 8,000 options

and the crassness of:

Normal

Not normal

(or, arguably)

what I was assigned at birth

Not what I was assigned at birth

Because really, the second is what this comes down to. Like, if this was a survey with 1,000 responses, I'm sure the first option would be feasible. But the whole point of this is looking at the population you have, and for a place like SW, I don't think there's enough people to get beyond the second and still have the question be any good.

Edited July 30, 2017 by sylae"close enough" is a terrible thing but it exists for a reason.