When we die the physical substance that is our mind and body takes on a form that no longer gives rise to celldivision, metabolism, and consciousness. Given even more time, the physical form of our being returns to recombine with the earth.

Rather than ignore the reality of death, we need to make it meaningful, which requires an upright and mature recognition of the Being we emerge from - physical processes. This where death metal comes in.

We are never going to 'make' this reality meaningful. But we could, perhaps become aware of its meaning. Where we go is where we come from.

We have different philosophical perspectives. In my own, human beings create meaning in the world. It is subjective. In other words, if human beings had never evolved, then there would be no meaning in the world. Test? Point to a meaning in the world. It can't be done. It is not objective.

What is it about deathmetal? Is ugly necessary, in order to appreciate beauty?

Essentially, sometimes ugly is necessary, because the truth is 'ugly'. It's 'ugly' insofar as it doesn't fit with our 'default setting', which is to walk around thinking the world exists for us as individuals and that we matter. When you perceive the truth, that we don't matter, it is confronting. I think it's the role of great art to redeem this, and to give it meaning in the way the Greeks gave it meaning. The greatest art is tragic art, in some sense.

Point to a meaning in the world? That's a strange challenge. The world, the cosmos, life, evolution, all are meaning(s). Meaning has zero to do with the human condescension of doling one out. Reality is its own meaning, as life is, to us, if we even get to being able to recognize it.

As for 'objective', nothing a human does is objective, unless that human has aligned himself with reality. Subjective is the only view an ego is capable of. Objective only results from ego abandonment.

I don't know what truth you are referring to, as being ugly. Truth is beauty, to me. What is great art, anyway? Who decides? I've seen art I liked, but none ever 'moved' me. But perhaps deathmetal is art to those who can see it as that. I can't, personally, but that is neither here, nor there. I imagine it fulfills the role of a catalyst, of sorts.

Meaning is that which follows manifestation. You might call it 'effect'. Water flows over a cliff. It falls. The meaning of this is water following the laws of Reality. The water reaches for the lowest place it can be. It subordinates itself to gravity. Water, itself, has no use for meaning. It does what it must. Humans require meaning, until they no longer require it, to define their Reality.

To me, 'meaning' is something like a way of representing some state of affairs.

For example, I can say either:

1. 'Superman was born on Krypton', or2. 'Clark Kent was born on Krypton'

Both 'refer' to the same thing in the world (the guy called either superman or clark kent - (and that he lives on Krypton)), but they do so each in a different *way*.

Compare also:

1. 'Crow'2. 'The moderator of a death metal forum who, paradoxically, does not like death metal'

Both refer to the same 'object' (yourself), but in two different ways.

So meaning is tied up in subjectivity - or, the way a subject represents something objective.

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If meaning is just 'effect', then I think it is a redundant concept. We can explain what water does (effects) without using concepts like meaning.

However we cannot talk about the way subjects refer to objects without using concepts like meaning.

To go back the example, if we dispense with the concept of different meanings in the two sentences, then we can't explain what is different about them, for they both refer to the same thing-in-the-world, or object (and posit that this object was born on Krypton). We NEED the concept of meaning when it comes to subjects representing objects, as opposed to when it comes to talking about the 'effects' of stuff like water.

This is my account of why the concept of 'meaning' is subjective; it is bound up with the way in which subjects represent objects.

A purely human construct, then, bound up in subjective ego. Meaning, for me, has little to do with that. Although I understand the way in which ego employs it. To ask, for example, "what is the meaning of life?", is to wonder what life is, and how it is supposed to serve the one asking the question. Thus 'meaning' is most often a way for an ego to assign hierarchy to something, but assign it always a lower spot than itself. Purpose, is different. "What is my purpose?" How may I serve this life-thing, as opposed to how may it serve me.

Anyway, we already know that most communication is no such thing. Meaning, itself, has become a concept too abstract to understand.

Crow, you implied that death metal is ugly. Do you mean that? I don't care why you do not listen to it (you're old, that's a no-brainer ) but if you do think it is an ugly thing, what standards do you use to judge beauty?

The comment on your age was not meant to offend, it was mostly a joke. But at once I could understand why you do not like death metal; it is the same reason that my dad does not like death metal. It is music made by people from a different time, dealing with different threats at different ages.

But that's not the whole story. You think that death metal is intentionally offensive, and an anthemic reflection of industrial cacaphony, right?