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Topic: Demon Worship (Read 129122 times)

Thanks again. I read about the fire and skimmed through article titles thereafter and paid particular attention to his comments about being in financial crisis. I also noticed the date, December, 2011, and it occurred to me that if I was about to read about a major windfall to the tune of 7 mil., then it came after 5 years (since 2006) of worshipping Bune, among other demons and angels. So, I haven't quite arrived at a point of reading that his demon worship has paid off, but will look further when I have more time...and energy.

Demons, for the sake of staying on topic, have limited power, is what you're saying. Then, you're correct that they're not necessarily the best option in order to change reality.

Yes. But demons are supposed to be powerful; John R. King IV claims to have been able to do such things as cause demons to produce earthquakes on command. His Livejournal is an interesting read, and he's helpful "in person" (i.e., in e-mail), but I have known two other folks -- Theodore Voland and Loki at sacredmagick -- who attempted the same rituals using almost all of the same materials, lacking only things Mr. King said wouldn't matter if missing, and obtained absolutely nothing.

I know one of the individuals mentioned later had some success with another grimoire, but no evocation to visibility still. I think to summon a demon is about as powerful as any other valid magical technique, and moreso than most, but really not the answer to material problems. At best, all magic seems limited to relatively small effects; most scientific evidence for psychic powers rests on small differences from chance in probabilistic tests, and telekinesis seems able to affect only small objects -- if that. I expect traditional magic to have a similar scope.

Also, an omnipotent being, such as a god, can change reality but may not want to so it can impose lessons on an individual.

So they say, though one would think that an omnipotent being would have better ways of imparting knowledge.

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The problem with using magick to obtain changes in reality is that as long as the desired effect can occur without magick, it's difficult to measure how much influence the magick has had on the circumstances.

That is exactly the problem, and why I have always placed such emphasis on obtaining material results I cannot reasonably ascribe to anything else. I don't think there is an easy or quick way to do so, though.

I'm bringing this thread from the dead because there's a lot of biased talk here.

First off, lets establish something - evocation magick is evocation magick. It's not "demon worship" or only demon conjuring or whatever. It pertains to the evocation and working with beings. Period. Angels, dæmons, elementals, god-forms, intelligences, etc etc.

I bring this up for a reason. Beings such as Bune or Marbas, ie, the Goetia, are not simply "demons". The grimoires that provide the information we're all familar with were solely the work of very very biased, French Catholic Priests, who obtained manuscripts pertaining to the magicks of the region, magicks for working with the genius locii, local pagan Gods, (and some powerful Arabic Djinns), ie the "Dæmons". Recall Plato's Dæmon, the equivalent to the Holy Guardian Angel? That term was not exclusive; it was to describe a particular type of being.

Yes we're all familiar with the Olympian pantheon, and perhaps the Vedic as well, but there's many more pantheons beyond that, especially spread across the Old World. These beings were not falling in line with the established theocracy, so the Priests labeled them all as demons, and went as far as to say they needed to be tortured and only had value as slaves you could summon. Does that sound right or compassionate to you? Does that sound like something in line with the Divine Order?

No. It does not to me. And the only reason that stuff was maintained and divulged to the world in that way, was because of the fact that our big magical revival, Golden-Dawn era was also during the Victorian era. There was a lot of repressed psychological damage going on in that time period, (all due to their social constraints but I'm not getting into that right now).

It's a matter of a simple look into history. The world was all pagan and diverse, Rome comes along and unites everyone under an empire, then Constantine's rule eventually makes Christianity the dominant religion, and renders all Paganism illegal. If a religion is illegal that obviously means it's going to be, and already has been, persecuted.

So if it's persecuted...then Goddesses like Astarte (Ishtar) become masculine demons like Astaroth. Astarte is the cultural basis for the Aphrodite, or Venus, Archetype. While the other "demons", not only of the Goetia but of many other grimoires of that time period, may not be immediately recognizable as a God, let alone one we are immediately aware of or familiar with, that does not mean they immediately must be some nasty terrible infernal being.

Now that doesn't go to say that they can't have vitriolic qualities at times...but hey, if you were a spirit-form being of some sort, God, Egregore, whatever, and were observed by many psychic humans for centuries as a demon to be exploited, after originally having a loving relationship with your land and people for quite some time, wouldn't you think by the laws of the ethers and metaphysics you would kinda become something like one? They were taken from all the different realms and places they were accustomed to, and tossed into "Tartarus", the Abyss, aka became Cthonic. Though I must admit there are a number included in the grimoire that seem to actually originate from the infernal realms...but just because a being is "there", accessible in some resource, it does not mean you are obliged to work with it.

In regards to their nature and disposition, we must also take into consideration the fact that a lot of these beings are really old. They not only come from different times, but have a lot of accumulated wisdom and experience. Some just have less patience for foolhardy, possibly greedy mortals who think highly of themselves. Some are just some variety of a wrathful deity. None of them appreciate torture of any kind.

No matter how much you discuss the theoritical aspects of the various approaches to magic, it still comes down to the spirits. We all know that there are spirits of the wind, air, rain, etc.. There are spirits that are in charge of every single aspect of the world and our lives, they dictate who does what, depending on their actions.

Persist enough and you'll be given the secrets, the ability to do anything. Be the best quarterback in football, be a mathematical genius, be the best chef, be the best stock trader, etc., etc., including being the best magician, where all you literally have to do is say the word and it will be accomplished.

Look, this is it, whether you want to debate, this or that, it matters not. It comes down to who goes that extra mile, he/she who persists will get what he/she desires in any field/.

You are the student and the spirits are the teachers. Even if you are the teacher, the spirit above you is your teacher. You can not escape this fact. You can try and debate your way around it, but you'll only be lying to yourself by doing it

I'm afraid I do not entirely agree with you on this. I've seen people "persist" for years at something, and they were still only mediocre. I've heard a handful of statements over the course of my life from certain people who "stuck with" something for most of their life and yet they were still only "better than" the majority rather than being anywhere close to "the best" at that thing.

In my opinion, to be The Best requires three things: Passion, Aptitude, and Effort.

Without the passion, you won't want to learn all of the little things that turn "good" into "amazing" let alone the best. Passion makes you WANT to achieve great things in your field, makes you WANT to overcome the challenges that come your way, makes you WANT to continue going without even remembering that "giving up" is an option because you WANT to do this.

Without aptitude, there will always be hurdles in your way that you must constantly work at overcoming. And not always the good hurdles that you can make gains from; sometimes it's just the annoying hurdles that hinder you and nothing else. Those with aptitude can "flow" into the role more effortlessly. As competition swimmers know, that little bit of resistance from in-aptitude can cause a relatively big difference in outcome.

But without effort, you won't make any progress at all regardless of how much passion or aptitude you have. Those who have the greatest passion and the greatest aptitude will make the greatest gains when they put in as much effort as they can, in my views.

Aptitude makes some people better at something to start, but with enough effort everyone becomes equal for a long time, right up until you get to the higher echelons. Then, the passion and aptitude once again allow some people to stride ahead while the rest fall behind. That being said, I do believe there are ways to "adapt" one's self to gain aptitude as well, though the "how" of it is a fuzzy concept for me, so it's not like I believe there's a permanent divide between those with aptitude and those without.

~Steve

You don't get what he's saying here. The spirit in question can grant you the aptitude in said field, if it's a field the spirit rules over.

And for the record, Bune has gotten my friend a job. My friend was also actually trying to find, and was ready to have, a job. Bune keeps helping him out in a pinch when he needs it, but he's not "wealthy". Perhaps in the sense that he has peace of mind about his finances, but he's not rolling in the dough.

I have also had other spirits do some things for me as well. Buer helped with a healing and surgery. Other beings have helped show me things, learn things. They each have their time and purpose, and tend to bring themselves to your attention based on affinity, need or some spiritual-growth value. Some can be familiars from past lives even, popping up when the time is right.

I wouldn't say not to pursue evoking one actively, but if you do so, do it with intent and purpose, not just randomly to flex your summoning muscles. Traditional Angels are better for that, they're more merciful and you are likely to squeeze a general blessing out of them if you didn't know what else to do anyway (if you're sincere enough anyways). But if you're practicing magick enough to have summoning-muscles to flex, you should already be wise enough to have an intent and purpose behind your exercises.

So, as already established, I personally know of magicians who have achieved successful results with this type of evocation magick, eschewing the high and mighty bind and torture system. I have also seen magicians get backfire from working with them too. Such is the nature of spirits of a more volatile or "dense" nature. They are not as directly merciful as most celestial or higher realm beings may be, but they only lash out as much as is warranted by the magician. If you're out of line, they will let you know. And being "out of line" could be a strong impurity or imbalance in your psyche that you are either unaware of, or do not consider a problem of any import to your magical workings. This is why in the traditional GD/Rosicrucian initiation system, such magick was only reserved for the Adepts. The Adepts have attained levels of Self Mastery, and could maintain themselves enough to work with such powerful beings. Powerful, as in they will reflect your own essence back to you at a magnified rate with high velocity.

It's actually quite Buddhist, perhaps Zen, in a way, when you think about it. Because in reality, that's what's needed to have success with these kind of beings. Wu wei, Mushin, a state of emptiness and honesty with self, integrity, inner quite, fortitude, discipline.

I think Melchizedek and Steve were debating about how spirits are the agents of magic itself-religious versus a more 'atheist' results driven magic.

Etymology from a Qabalistic-Qliphotic harmony is a great way to justify worship or close relations with demonic forces and not be considered bad or harmful to self or other- Kether means Crown and is ruled over by Metatron, the scribe of Yahweh, and is ruled over by Satan (ha-satan, adversary) and Moloch (literally, 'king'- you can see this in the name Adramelech- 'king of fire'), and ha-satan is not simply 'adversary' but a station as well (a very high one it would seem). The demons of the Qliphoth, and many of the Goetia, names simply mean King or Lord of this or that region. Lilith, Sammael, Asmodeus and Lucifuge seem to be the only trully demonic beings of the Eleven Spheres of the Qliphoth, and Asmodeus may still considered an angel to some, although quite fierce.

When it comes to evocation, I think it is unnecesary to go through all of that ritual, especially if you are using the Goetic spirits and/or (espcially) Qliphoth as a spiritual discipline. Using an archetypal model of the universe, you can open the portals of the Qliphoth, Qabala, Nine Worlds of Yggdrasil, etc, within your own body and psyche uniting these forces as one force. Either path you go, left or right, it would seem essential to explore these dark tunnels as aspects of self- as a 'light' practitioner you get a taste of Gods wisdom and wrath and the trials of Christ, as a 'dark' practitioner you get a taste of being a god and taking control of a mini world or universe and even some companions along the way. Also, by not evoking you are saving yourself the risk of letting a demon loose on other from improper protocol and only place yourself in danger by internalizing these powers and intelligences. And somebody the does believe in the actual consciousness of spirits, medieval evocation just seems mean.

An interesting note and a possible look into the ancient war of religions: Ashera is the Hebrew form of Asteroth as a celestial archetype, and the Sanskrit word for demon is ashura. We have the word devil, which is strikingly similar to the Sanskrit word deva, a celestial or beneficient spirit. The great thing about looking at the Qliphoth in this light, one, takes much reservation and fear out of the proces

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"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.Your reality is only spirit.Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

I think Melchizedek and Steve were debating about how spirits are the agents of magic itself-religious versus a more 'atheist' results driven magic.

Etymology from a Qabalistic-Qliphotic harmony is a great way to justify worship or close relations with demonic forces and not be considered bad or harmful to self or other- Kether means Crown and is ruled over by Metatron, the scribe of Yahweh, and is ruled over by Satan (ha-satan, adversary) and Moloch (literally, 'king'- you can see this in the name Adramelech- 'king of fire'), and ha-satan is not simply 'adversary' but a station as well (a very high one it would seem). The demons of the Qliphoth, and many of the Goetia, names simply mean King or Lord of this or that region. Lilith, Sammael, Asmodeus and Lucifuge seem to be the only trully demonic beings of the Eleven Spheres of the Qliphoth, and Asmodeus may still considered an angel to some, although quite fierce.

When it comes to evocation, I think it is unnecesary to go through all of that ritual, especially if you are using the Goetic spirits and/or (espcially) Qliphoth as a spiritual discipline. Using an archetypal model of the universe, you can open the portals of the Qliphoth, Qabala, Nine Worlds of Yggdrasil, etc, within your own body and psyche uniting these forces as one force. Either path you go, left or right, it would seem essential to explore these dark tunnels as aspects of self- as a 'light' practitioner you get a taste of Gods wisdom and wrath and the trials of Christ, as a 'dark' practitioner you get a taste of being a god and taking control of a mini world or universe and even some companions along the way. Also, by not evoking you are saving yourself the risk of letting a demon loose on other from improper protocol and only place yourself in danger by internalizing these powers and intelligences. And somebody the does believe in the actual consciousness of spirits, medieval evocation just seems mean.

An interesting note and a possible look into the ancient war of religions: Ashera is the Hebrew form of Asteroth as a celestial archetype, and the Sanskrit word for demon is ashura. We have the word devil, which is strikingly similar to the Sanskrit word deva, a celestial or beneficient spirit. The great thing about looking at the Qliphoth in this light, one, takes much reservation and fear out of the proces

Well in regards to the "atheist" approach, usually supported by Crowely's theory that the Goes were "in your head" (another result of the perspective of one living in the Victorian era, in my opinion), this blog post has a bit of good brainfood on the matter...

However I think anyone who has had spirits come to them, and affect their lives heavily, such as myself, without or prior to practicing any form of magick, can attest for their existence.

And yes, I'd totally agree on Asmodeus and co. being explicitly infernal...that's kinda what I was referring to in my previous post when I admitted that some, are in fact, of such nature...experience denotes such...though, one experienced sorcerer once told me that the "higher", or perhaps Angelic, side of Asmodeus is that of a chivalrous Knight, more or less, versed in gentle and poetic ways. I've only experience with the wrathful form...

I've had several forms of spirit contact throughout my life prior to magic as well. I mainly work with spirits I feel support me or teach me valuable lessons, this is where demonic worship or magical devotion, even of the trully infernal type, comes in to play and I think is important to embrace. I view most spiritual demons much like the Protectors of the Dharma or Loki. Although they are understood to be evil they still play a crucial role in the development of existence and creation, like Loki, or just so fierce and frightening they come off as evil, like the Protectors, who are simply upholding a universal teaching.

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"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.Your reality is only spirit.Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

Alright, allow me to state something that I missed previously: if someone else is doing the work for you, then you are not the one that becomes The Best.

If my friend does my homework for me, and I get a perfect score on that homework, am I the one that is capable? No. Can I ever be "The Best" just by getting perfect scores on my homework when someone else is doing the homework? No.

The examples you gave were in the results, as were the examples that Melchizedek gave: "Be the best quarterback in football, be a mathematical genius, be the best chef, be the best stock trader, etc., etc., including being the best magician, where all you literally have to do is say the word and it will be accomplished.". Melchizedek basically stated that so long as you achieve the results, that means you are the best; you stopped short of saying that, instead just recognizing that the spirit can grant aptitude. The problem being that if the spiritual entity is granting you the capability, then you're not The Best: the spirit is The Best. This is why we say in martial arts that the master cannot do the work for the student. The master cannot take the student's arms and make the student punch at a master level and still give the credit to the student.

It's not a bad thing to get help, but when we're talking about "*being* The Best" (which is what I was replying to in Melchizedek's post), as opposed to "obtaining the best results", then it becomes a personal thing that is invalidated if you're getting help from others.

Melchizedek stated that spirits can make you the best, when he meant to say that they can get you the best results. I didn't make the reason for my reply clear in my previous post.

However, Melchizedek also kind of flirts around the issue of spirits as teachers, rather than spirits doing things for you, and that the student would then become The Best so long as they "persist enough", and that was his focus; the idea that persistence was the key. In that case, my previous post about what it takes to be the best still applies, regardless of whether you have no teacher, a human teacher, or a spiritual teacher.

Unless all you care about is the results. In which case, yes, you would appear to be the best to everyone who doesn't see the spirit pulling the strings behind the scenes.

~Steve

« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 02:02:37 PM by Steve »

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Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

Alright, allow me to state something that I missed previously: if someone else is doing the work for you, then you are not the one that becomes The Best.

If my friend does my homework for me, and I get a perfect score on that homework, am I the one that is capable? No. Can I ever be "The Best" just by getting perfect scores on my homework when someone else is doing the homework? No.

The examples you gave were in the results, as were the examples that Melchizedek gave: "Be the best quarterback in football, be a mathematical genius, be the best chef, be the best stock trader, etc., etc., including being the best magician, where all you literally have to do is say the word and it will be accomplished.". Melchizedek basically stated that so long as you achieve the results, that means you are the best; you stopped short of saying that, instead just recognizing that the spirit can grant aptitude. The problem being that if the spiritual entity is granting you the capability, then you're not The Best: the spirit is The Best. This is why we say in martial arts that the master cannot do the work for the student. The master cannot take the student's arms and make the student punch at a master level and still give the credit to the student.

It's not a bad thing to get help, but when we're talking about "*being* The Best" (which is what I was replying to in Melchizedek's post), as opposed to "obtaining the best results", then it becomes a personal thing that is invalidated if you're getting help from others.

Melchizedek stated that spirits can make you the best, when he meant to say that they can get you the best results. I didn't make the reason for my reply clear in my previous post.

However, Melchizedek also kind of flirts around the issue of spirits as teachers, rather than spirits doing things for you, and that the student would then become The Best so long as they "persist enough", and that was his focus; the idea that persistence was the key. In that case, my previous post about what it takes to be the best still applies, regardless of whether you have no teacher, a human teacher, or a spiritual teacher.

Unless all you care about is the results. In which case, yes, you would appear to be the best to everyone who doesn't see the spirit pulling the strings behind the scenes.

~Steve

Alright, I hear you there. There's nothing wrong with desiring to maintain Integrity in one's path and life. However, that said, sometimes the spirits really do have something to offer there...if you're trying to be great at something in a way that might otherwise be "cheating", you'd have karmic backlash coming your way for sure.

Yet, at the same time, something that seems underhanded to some, could be a cherished opportunity to others. I would know since I myself do not come from a privileged background. That said I don't have access to many of the resources that I wish I did, and many others do, have access to, in regards to developing my desired skill-set and ability in certain fields. Resources such as schools, mentors, supplies/materials, a proper space and environment to learn and grow unimpeded, raw funding for all of the above and more, etc...

In a scenario for one who is predisposed towards certain areas but lacks the fundamental support and resources to pursue mastery in said areas, is it really such a blow to one's integrity to use magick to get some much needed help? Does not having what other people have due to monetary reasons, and seeking out extra assistance, make one "less great", intrinsically?

Sometimes we just simply have roadblocks too, and need a helping hand...what if a poet is having writer's block and calls upon Phenix to lend a creative hand? I've never worked with the being but Phenix could either just magically endow some creativity, or perhaps shift some things around in the poet's life (internally or externally) that removes whatever it was that was blocking the poet's creativity. Does that make him less of a sincere artist?

While results do not always connote who is "The Best", I must say that not just any magician can conjure up beings and successfully have them carry out the desired duties and tasks, including those of education and improvement. Perhaps there is something here to being a "better" magician (not the "Best" in said field), by being able to accomplish such long-term goals.

In a scenario for one who is predisposed towards certain areas but lacks the fundamental support and resources to pursue mastery in said areas, is it really such a blow to one's integrity to use magick to get some much needed help? Does not having what other people have due to monetary reasons, and seeking out extra assistance, make one "less great", intrinsically?

My apologies if I came off this way, but I don't really care how a person "gets things done" if that is their focus. I'm a purist when it comes to concepts such as "What makes a person The Best", but in the real world I have no qualms whatsoever with a person making their goal in life to be something like "getting the best stuff" instead of "being The Best". That's a personal choice that each person makes for themselves, and there's no question of integrity in trying to get the best stuff. However, if a person wants to earnestly be The Best, then does it really count if someone else does the work for them? I mean, sure, you can get some forms of help, but there's an iffy line where too much help becomes "the help is The Best" instead of "the person is The Best".

I'm pretty sure most people aren't going to be too concerned with a frivolous concept like "being The Best" while their fundamental needs aren't being taken care of, or if they have more important goals and desires to achieve. But for those who do wish to take up such a frivolous goal, they need to set their own standard. My purist standard doesn't accept much in the way of help (teaching, guidance, and auxiliary help don't really get in the way of the integrity), but other people are other people; they live their own lives and decide for themselves when they're happy with their path.

As an example, if someone wants to be the best painter in the world, they're going to need paints and canvas and time to practice. Paints and canvas require money, but if the painter requires a full time job to pay for those things, then that job is going to leave less time to get better at painting. In this case, does it hurt the integrity of "being The Best Painter" if someone sponsors the painter and basically pays for the painter's entire set of needs; food, shelter, paints, canvas, etc? Not really. Not in my mind at least. Does it hurt the integrity if the painter gets a tutor? No. So long as the painter can stand on his own two feet when it comes to making his own paintings at the point where he wants to be recognized as The Best, then it doesn't matter if he had a tutor help him get there. But if the tutor is mixing his paints, and picking out his brushes for him, and guiding him on where and how to paint *during the period where the painter wants the recognition*, then I'd say that painter is not at the point of being able to be recognized as The Best.

Now, to take it back to my original post to Melchizedek: make both the sponsor and tutor each spirits, and my point remains the same. So long as they only provide auxiliary help, then they don't ruin the integrity. However, if they're doing most of the work that's core to the subject of what the person is trying to be recognized for, then they ruin the integrity as the spirits are The Best and the human is just a puppet. If the human is happy and okay with that, then that's fine because that's their life and their choice. But I would still never recognize that human as being The Best so long as I knew that the spirits were doing the stuff for him.

The difference is that if the spirits decide the human is no longer worthwhile, they can up and leave him and the human will instantly lose every aspect of capability that the spirits provided. If the human earned the skill himself, then the spirits could leave and he would still be able to paint to the same level. In the martial arts, the comparison would be between teaching a person how to kill with their own body, versus skipping that and just giving the person a gun "because it's easier and you don't need all that training". If you have the skill yourself, it's difficult (though not impossible, of course) to just up and spontaneously lose that skill. But if his power is produced entirely in the gun then if he loses the gun, the guy loses his power. And the gun is so much easier to lose/leave-at-home-that-one-time-you-need-it/have-stolen/break/jam/run-out-of-ammo/etc than, say, your body.

"Perhaps there is something here to being a "better" magician". Being "better than I currently am" is a much more reasonable goal for everyone

~Steve

« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 08:11:46 PM by Steve »

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Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

Many magicians have worked with demons and they have all formed the same opinion: No matter how nice, gentle or wise a demon may appear, it is still a Demon and eventually will act like one. There is a reason why grimoires tell the magician to treat a Demon like a bastard slave with insults and curses. From personal experience I can tell you that every demon shows its face eventually. The very fact that you have worked with this being without the proper use of a ritual evocation shows that you lack the magickal experience to be evoking in the first place. Why on Earth would you deal with a demon without the proper safe-guards established in ritual? there is nothing a demon can do that an Angel or planetary spirit can't. Chances are the creature has already started working on your mind, though you will of course be totally unaware of it until it is too late, assuming the being you have been experiencing is indeed the demon you were hoping to contact (which it probably isn't). Demons are master decievers! they are the best actors the universe knows. I'm well aware that despite any warnings you receive you will still probably continue on with your plan, but know this: If you had fully developed clairvoyance, you would be able to see that creature's real form, and it would frighten you the likes of which no other thing in this physical world could do.

Basically, use some common sense. A demon is a DEMON. There is a reason it is called that. Only after a few years of experience in evoking other beings should the infernal realms be dealt with by the magician. If you evoke this demon and the demon actually shows (unlikely unless you have a great deal of experience. An elemental posing as the demon will probably show) then you would have found yourself in a hole that is very hard to get out of.

OK, from my perspective, I understand that there are are certain laws at work here and that supposedly a demon must respect these laws of protection ect., but as you just stated, they can and usually do betray your trust because they are inherently evil. So, do you really think that sitting in the middle of encircled pentagram will ultimately protect you from psychic or even physical attack? I don't. They are lawbreakers by nature.

However, I do agree with your attitude towards these creatures. It's the only way to gain their respect. Otherwise they view you like a weak little school girl. That said, ultimately the rituals are to simply to open a gate for communcation. Once the gate is open it comes down to will over will. Or better stated, the Master/Slave relationship. In any case, there is still a price to be paid. They justifiably require payment of some sort for services rendered. Because just like us, their time is precious to them. They are agenda-driven and if they feel that they have wasted their time with you then there may be hell to pay.