Welcome to the Piano World Piano ForumsOver 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Something that I notice sometimes is that the music will be going along, and then all of a sudden it will sound higher. I don't mean specific notes; I mean as an overall effect it sounds higher. I wonder if what I'm hearing is the key change to the dominant.

That's what I'm wondering, too! How can you enjoy music if you can't hear this stuff? Are you expecting the change to dominant to sound like the change from woodwind to brass? Can you tell a sigh (a falling semitone) from a question (a rising fifth)?

Can you hear this stuff and just not recognise that's what it is?

Caesar: "We're in the dominant now." Brutus: "What? I heard no fanfare, no drum roll! All I got was this little inflection!"

Richard, how did you think up your disquisition on questions? That's brilliant! I should thank you profusely for it, shouldn't I? Yes, I should! [coda:] Thank you!

In all seriousness, that was very helpful to me.

It suggests listening to music and seeing if I hear a sense of question and/or answer, or openness and closedness. I don't know if I will or not, but it sure beats trying to listen for tonics and dominants and key changes. Anyway, it will be an interesting experiment.

As for enjoying music, I don't know. Black and white movies can be very enjoyable. Maybe sometimes there are parts I'm missing -- like watching The Wizard of Oz in black and white, you can get most of it, but there's a little extra ooomph when Dorothy opens the door of the house and a brilliantly coloured Oz is revealed. So I feel sometimes like that about listening to sonata form, that I'm missing that little extra oomph of "away from home" and "back to home". But there's still lots to enjoy.

I'm not sure if I can hear a falling semitone as a sigh or a rising fifth as a question. I can distinguish falling vs. rising, and I may catch the gist, but I won't be able to name what I've heard. I'm letting go of thinking the names are important. I think I can hear sighing easier than questions though. I think a rising fifth just sounds to me like "up, by a rather large amount." And I can only hear this rising rather large interval if played as a melodic interval; I won't hear it if it's implied through change of tonic, because I can't hear what a tonic is. I suppose it's possible I'm hearing it and don't know what it is, but I don't know how to get out of that state.

But I can hear in music "doing straightforward things with the sound" vs. "doing surprising things with the sound that catch my attention". So that's good enough for me; I'm determined to pay attention to what I can hear and not worry so much about these mysterious other things other people can hear.

In recent choir rehearsals I've been applying this principle (of appreciating what I can do and not beating myself up for what I think I should be able to do) to singing. I can't sightsing a line by stringing together intervals, the way some people think I should learn to do, but I can sing it in an approximate sort of way by some other means that I can't name (and it's not by moveable do solfege either). And once I can learn it, I can sing it well. So that's good. And my only challenge is pitches; I'm rock solid on sight-singing rhythm (with the one exception of singing three triplet quarter notes in the space of one half note). But even that last, I don't beat myself up over. I just think that's a hard thing, that I've very rarely done so I haven't practiced it, and someday maybe I'll work on ways to learn to do that better.

I'm rock solid on sight-singing rhythm (with the one exception of singing three triplet quarter notes in the space of one half note). But even that last, I don't beat myself up over. I just think that's a hard thing, that I've very rarely done so I haven't practiced it, and someday maybe I'll work on ways to learn to do that better.

Just chiming in here to offer a tidbit if it helps at all, PS88. I certainly can't offer much in your -- miles ahead of me -- analysis, and of course will leave that all to Richard, while I also learn from.

Is what you are referring to, like two beat triplets? If so, concur, it is a tricky one to get the hang of. My Father was a teacher, and I remember him spending a relentless amount of time with students trying to get this right. They would either play the first notes on the beat and off beat, or the last two. Never, evenly spacing them across the beats. That is, until alas, they got the hang of it. Finally, relief from all the screaming.

BEAUTIFUL he would shout ... now, do it again ...

This is the one place I would say, don't try to count it. Rather, hear it and feel it. It will come, and when you come across it again, go back to the other place where you have it right and it will come back again.

Not sure if this helps, or if this was even the challenge. But this is one I can actually handle pretty well now after having endured a half lifetime of agony.

I think the last time we had something like that in chorus I started silently counting "1 2 3" inside each quarter note a few measures in advance, and then when the two beat triplet came up I could switch from counting "ONE two three FOUR five six" for two quarter notes to "ONE two THREE four FIVE six" for three triplet quarter notes in the same amount of time. Fortunately for me the leadup measures weren't in sixteenth notes: that would have completely messed up my quick 123 counting, as it would struggle against the quick 1234 of the sixteenths, and as we saw earlier, I can't do 3 against 4 yet.

I will see if I can feel it instead the next time it comes up. I just feel so lost when just trying to feel these, though, and I like the security of the precise numbers. Oh dear, this feels like it might be a terrifying insight into my inner psyche! I can see by the example of "what if the leadup was in sixteenth notes" that I'll need to get more comfortable with the by-feel method, though. Bah. Humbug.

Thank you for your thoughts on this. It's reassuring to know that I'm normal in finding it hard, and to know that progress can be made, and to know what kind of effort that progress might entail.

Yes, the introduction of non-diatonic notes/harmonies is perceived as shifting tonality until a final cadence can establish it.

Perceived as shifting tonality?

Speaking personally, I'd say it's a "hm, that doesn't seem to belong there. I wonder if it's going to drift off somewhere else?" kind of a thing. Impressions. Nothing solid. A bit like when you listened to a movement back when some time and felt it was different in some way, and it had gone from major to minor. Hints of things that add up after a while.

I was looking at some piece and suddenly this F starts drumming in, intruding, and disappearing again. Then it came more and more often, until suddenly a bit later the piece moved into F major. It's like seeing a rare robin pop up way too early, and you notice it because it shouldn't be there yet. But at some point the lawn is full of robins, grass is sprouting, tulips are up and it's definitely spring.

This, being a statement, would be read with a flat inflection but being a question should be read with a rising inflection at the end so you need to get to the end of the sentence to confirm whether or not you'll need to prepare a response. Won't you?

Some sentences read like statements all the way through and at the very turn out to be questions, don't they?

Isn't it the way, though, that some questions make it clear at the ouset that it's a question?

This is how I hear music. It's not until I get to the end of the phrase/section that I know if there's a 'rising inflection' at the end and if there is then I can expect another, balancing phrase, to complete the 'paragraph'. So it's important to me to hear or feel the tonality at the start and compare it to the tonality I hear at the end. It tells me whether I'm listening to a question or a statement.....

I don't think that I hear it that way. It would also be too late for me, because by the time I'm oriented to what the key is and able to follow the music, it's already moved to a new key. I'd always be one step behind.

Usually the key is established early on. Often there are lots of V-I-V-I or maybe I I6 I or other ways of hovering around that I, right at the beginning. We hear so much of that I key that we concentrate on that tonality.

We begin with a two bar phrase that is obviously full of the joys of spring with the descending octave at the close preceded by a delightful leap from a grace note an octave below. Barely able to contain itself in M2-3 a new figure in M5-6 tells of expected delights before the air of contentment in M7-8.

M9 starts three measures of excitement, again followed by the calming voice of M7-8. We are in D Major throughout.

We enter the bridge passage in M16 with the M5 figure and some more scurrying up to the brief contraction of the first two measures in the middle of M20 and twice in M21 before the emphatic knocks in the middle of M22 on E major, the dominant of the dominant.

The second subject begins at the end of M22 with a sweetly disguised variation(*) of M1-2 and M30 introduces a subtle three note sequence on F#-G-A hidden in repeated and broken thirds. This section leads up to another new figure in M37 before the final dominant cadence in M38.

The development begins with a "new figure", a two measure theme drawn together from the conglomeration of M1-2, M7-8 and the three note sequence F#-G-A in M30. It is played over an A pedal but repeated a tone higher over the same A pedal increasing the tension and building suspense. It ends with cascading thirds leading to a repeat a fourth higher and this time leads to a delightful play on the figure from M37 in a chromatic descent to another reminder of the F#-G-A sequence rising over a dominant A pedal to B and hanging on C# before the recapitulation returns on D.

Originally Posted By: Greener

Oh yeah, the keys

How about ...

Passing through, visiting, shifting but not committing to;

G minor G major A major

Where is G minor?

We end the exposition in A major and we start in M38 with an A pedal but there are no G's to show whether they're sharp or natural. Are we still in A here or back to tonic on the dominant? The next phrase has a ntural G suggesting the later and M44 confirms it.

In only six works Clementi has taken us to the point where anyone capable of a good rendition of this sonatina is well able to begin tackling the full scale works by Mozart and Haydn and not far from those of Beethoven and Schubert.

(*)I've spent all morning trying to link to an image on Box.com. Alas, I'm short on technology skills.

I don't think that I hear it that way. It would also be too late for me, because by the time I'm oriented to what the key is and able to follow the music, it's already moved to a new key. I'd always be one step behind.

We're not talking about establishing the tonic here but establishing a new key. How do you know when a new key has been established? As soon as the accidental has been introduced? Or when all the harmonies are diatonic to the new key but not to the tonic key? Or once you've reached a cadence? How do you know when the new key has been established and is not just being visited or passed through?

You can't apply the new key to what you've heard in the past and you sure can't predict what you're about to hear so you can only apply the new key information to what you are hearing right now and that must always be in relation to the tonic (however you hear or perceive that relationship - and you must perceive that relationship, why else would 300 years of tonal music always have finished on the tonic?) unless the modulations have gone so far you no longer remember what the tonic is.

If a new key is to be established then you must at least end a phrase in that key if not start another in it, no? How do you determine establishment otherwise?

Hold on, a minute. I think I know what you are saying, Richard. What has thrown this off for me is that you have been talking about the way a phrase *ends*. In fact, if you're talking about a new key, we're really talking about the way the new key *begins*. Maybe it's a matter of perception.

So you've got this music that has been chugging along merrily in the key of D. Then the music seems to shift but it's still in D, and then it starts having (in the case of this piece) some spatterings of G# which aren't in the key of D, but is very much the leading note of A as well as a note in the V or Dominant chord of A. So it teases us along until suddenly it cadences E7 A. And then the music starts chugging along merrily in the key of A. That's what you're talking about.

Well, the part that starts with spatterings of G#, where maybe it has Em for a while but is still in D, and then goes on having E (with the G#) hinting at a new key, that is the transitional section or bridge. That bridge ENDS with an E7 A cadence which announces the new key. It also BEGINS the new key. It then establishes that key for our ear because, as I wrote before, we typically hear lots of I V's or other combinations that hover around the new I or i, as the new tonic gets extended (emphasized through repetition).

This is also an answer to P88's question. I wouldn't hear it only through a cadence. What really makes me hear the new key is the emphasis of the new tonic and tonic chord of that new key.

Although this doesn't look remotely close on paper, I believe M39 - half of M42 are coming from M1-M4.

Can you explain how you see this. You did better than I did since I didn't find anything at all.

I did not see it at all. I was not overly confident in disclosing for this reason. But, when I listened to these sections back to back, it seemed like we could take elements from each, overlay them and make a nice choral arrangement. They just sound very similar.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Where is G minor?

I had a feeling this wasn't going to be good.

Something PS88 mentioned awhile back (when you start seeing alot of #'s and b's together, I would expect minor.) Well certainly not a lot here. But I was trying to account for the Bb. I had a C# dim here or rootless A7.

I guess I need to stop getting so anxious about accounting for every accidental until a pattern is confirmed.

I then saw D A7b9 (rootless again) in M50, but that was as far as I got before hitting the hay.

Can we go over (summarize) all the keys in this section again? I've read all the notes but still not clear of where we think the transitions are taking place and to what keys.

We're not talking about establishing the tonic here but establishing a new key.

I might regret asking this, but: what's the difference between a tonic and a key?

I might regret answering this but: the tonic lasts for the duration of the piece, the key is a more transient thing that's passed through until the eventual return to tonic.

"Tonic" means "note 1" of the (any) key. In C major it is C, in G minor it is G, and in G major it is G (in each case, the note). If you are in a different key because the music has modulated, then that key also has a tonic, which you can also recognize as the tonic.

When I wrote about "tonic extension" (I V I, I V6 I6, I I6 I) etc., these are devices that are used to make us hear what key a piece is in, or recognize it visually (by reading the music). The tonic is the note that the music hovers around, because it is in that key, and wants to return to. So if we recognize what the tonic is ..... where the music wants to return to ..... then we also recognize what key it is in. This is as true in a modulated section as it is for the main key of the piece.

Maybe we should use "tonic of the piece" and "key of the piece" to distinguish. The word "tonic" itself does not have such a restricted meaning. As for key, when music has modulated to a new key, everything functions within that key according to that key. Knowing and/or feeling and/or hearing it allows us to be oriented in that key. That's how it works for me.

By logic, the tonic and the key are related. One gives clues about the other. So this is important.

Unless your music is from a different source that is written differently, then I think you renotated it to show something that you see underneath. This isn't what is actually in the music, but you see underneath the music (possibly). Is that right?

Richard, I have taken your notation just as you wrote it, but started with the original from where you said you found this, namely measures 1 - 2 for subject 1, and after measure 22 for subject 2. Then put your notation of what you see under the original. (I hope this makes sense).

If this is incorrect, let me know. If correct, maybe it will help others follow your line of thinking.

In the first subject I shortened the ornamental opening, changed the D and A into quarter notes (from dotted quarter and eighth) and mixed up the rising eighths into two quarter notes (just the D and F# would have done). These eighths are the notes you're missing in your extract. I also modified the falling octave at the end.

Thank you for explaining. I think it was important to know what you did, because I could imagine a number of people in the group hunting for the similarities that you found directly in the music, and obviously not finding them. It was potentially confusing (and I was confused myself briefly) and now I'm not confused about what you did and found.

Originally Posted By: vrtf90

I wasn't drawing from the LH if that's what you meant.

Right. But the LH contains information that I felt was important after going back and forth with this. That is why I chose to include it.

Greener, on the mixed up sharps and flats around m.50, you remembered what I said correctly, that it suggests a minor key. Now to get more precise about finding which minor key.

There are several specific clues suggesting a key (even if it's just shifting and not established).

1. The sharp among flats is typically the leading tone.

2. The flats that appear should agree with the key signature of the proposed key.

3. The chords should agree with the key: for example if there is a dominant seventh chord, it should be built on the fifth degree of the proposed key. If there is a diminished seventh chord (or rootless seven chord, if you prefer), it should be built on the leading tone of the proposed key. (Occasionally it will be built on the second degree.)

Sometimes the implied key is shifting quickly, every measure or more often.

Applying these ideas to the passage that you suggested was G minor: are they consistent with G minor? If not, what different key do they suggest?