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As a point of comparison Leinster have 6 senior contracted players for 4,5,6 and 8 during the WC (Fardy, Toner, Maloney, Josh Murphy, Deegan and Doris). They have 3 in the WC squad (Ryan, Ruddock and Conan). They have lost Leavy to a season long injury and SOB decided late last year to opt for London Irish. They also cut Nagle and M Kearney at the end of last year all to make space for players coming through.

Munster have 7 senior contracted players for 4,5,6 and 8 (Billy, DOS, Wycherley, SOC, Botha, Coombes and JOD). We have 4 in the RWC squad (Kleyn, Beirne, Ständer, POM). We have no players out with a long term injury. We had no unexpected departures from the squad at the end of last year. We cut DOC2 last year to reduce squad size.

They have 4/5 solid academy players (Baird, Dunne, Dowling, C Ryan) for those spots. As do we (Aherne, Kelly, E O'Connor, JOS, Hodnett).

So why is it that we are signing short term cover and they are making do with giving game time to younger players?

Our locks are Billy, DOS, Wycherley and SOC. Solid lads but not really comparable to Leinster's pairing of Fardy and Toner. I like to see Fineen and co. getting games but I can understand why the coaches might want somebody with a bit of experience.

I doubt Paddy Butler will start any games for the senior side so I wouldn't worry about that,

Comment

I hope this post helps...I think people are talking at crossed purposes, and sliding the odd personal jibe in, which isn’t helping things at all.

Cowboy, I read your posts with interest, but it really did seem to me that what you were saying is, ‘they are the professionals, don’t question them’. As the thread has developed you are saying, quite reasonably I think, that there must be some reason why we s this m to need to bring players in rather than relying on our own.

i read AFHs post as saying there are some inconsistent judgements being made, not least that we seem to be hiring guys despite, apparently, having a queue of guys,
who have done very well at U20 and beyond, not getting game time, when there are opportunities to play them Celtic cup, early PRO14).

The bits of personal jibes aside, let’s nit even bother having the ho started it childishness, there really are two very legitimate views on the current situation, they can’t be good enough because the coaches aren’t selecting them, how will we know unless they get to play. Clearly seeing the guys in training gives the coaches the box seat in making the judgement (and makes their assessment more valid than ours), and it’s also their responsibility to do so (professionals paid to make the best decisions for Munster). But I don’t think that’s any reason to just close the debate on why these decisions are being made,
and pointing out what seem to be inconsistencies in the decisions made. This discussion is entirely different to the issues about whether IRFU should /should not be supporting Munster, and whose interests it is in that they do/don’t.

Agree with every word, and then add in my approximation that Jed gets announced and people are annoyed because local guy X is going to miss out because of Jed?

Comment

Sur I haven't a clue whose going to make the grade or not Mumhain, genuinely. My contention is that when Munster do something (Jed) they get pilloried and I don't subscribe to that because

A) I am not a professional coach
B) I am not watching the squad week in week out
C) I have a bit of trust in the IRFU and Munster at this stage to ensure we can stay competitive

I've no idea if the standard of academy graduate is excellent or ****e either, but the fact we have more than 15 imports of one ilk or another makes me wonder what's happening in the academy to have generated this situation. If that's the best and most effective way to keep Munster in the top 4 of league and cup, so be it, I don't proclaim to know

When Munster make debatable decisions they get questioned. I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with that. It's not like anybody can definitively say that playing Holloway in games that Coombes/O'Connor could be playing is 100% the right decision, in terms of player development, squad rotation or results. There are going to be pros and cons to pretty much every decision made in professional rugby.

To be honest, I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with the Munster academy. As many posters have stated, give our relative population we are doing pretty well. We might not be watching the squad week in week out, but we have watched club/schools/Irish underage rugby. At that level Munster have been comparable to if not better than Ulster and not a million miles off Leinster. We had 6 players (compared to Leinster's 7) in the under-20 six nations match against England. This English team was littered with premiership experience and all of our guys looked as good, if not better. As AwayFromHome pointed out, it is up to Van Graan to transfer that talent the senior team.

It is also possible for world-class coaches to get decision wrong. Just listen to the recent interview that Schmidt did with the IRFU's social media account. He admitted that he had made mistakes at the last world cup. Regardless of some questionable decisions, he still a world class coach.

Comment

I'd usually be in favour of judging a coach on his achievements and giving the benefit of a doubt to a successful set up.

The issue, I suspect, is that Munster haven't shown any sustainable progress for more than a decade, and we have a coach whose last successes were as a forwards coach 10 years ago.

Asking anyone to have faith in him is a reach, I think.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

I like the look of that appointment. Brings serious experience at a high level on the commercial and organization side of sport without the risk of dipping his nose into the rugby side of things directly as that's not his background.

I see that O'Shea will be gone from Italy after the 6N (or perhaps before, not clear). Wonder if we are still considering a DOR position.

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Comment

For sure, coaches get to see these lads a lot more than we do, but I can't believe that our guys who shine at U20 6N, or are winning/reaching the knockout stages of the B&I / Celtic Cup, are consistently less capable of breaking through to senior level than their peers at other sides - not when they have performed in a competitive environment at least as well as those opponents and better than many/most. Young lads like Coombes or SOC (both of whom are now on full senior contracts), or Casey this year have, when given the opportunity, shown they have as much talent and grit as any up & coming player from any other team and even as some of those they are seeking to displace in Munster.

The fact that our younger players aren't making the breakthrough could be less about a lack of ability on their part and more indicative of a culture rooted in the notion that you must bide your time and wait till the man ahead of you is finished with his boots. Bill Johnston being fourth in a queue is a case in point, possibly in combination with the "sunk money" notion. I certainly had hopes last season that he would leapfrog somebody ahead of him, and he'd been at least equally as consistent off the tee as either Tyler or JJ had, if not better. I know both of the latter (and Tyler in particular) have had merciless injury issues, but we've stuck with them over & over waiting for them to recover the form they'd shown they were capable of - BillJo just wasn't afforded the same opportunity. Stephen Fitzgerald has been going great guns for Connacht - did anyone see his first try against Russia the other day? The vision to react (speed of thought) and the acceleration to race past his opponents and finish it off ... I can't remember Haley, whose arrival ultimately displaced him, delivering that sort of score for us. I don't have it in for Haley, btw, and support him as much as anyone lining out for us - I just don't see what Fitzgerald wasn't bringing that he is.

These are guys we developed, investing a huge amount of time, money and mentoring. Some are now delivering for other sides, others are still with us but it's starting to look like there are barriers being put in the way of their chance to step up, while we retain or buy in alternatives who thus far aren't visibly head & shoulders above them. If any one of Wycherley, O'Connor, O'Shea or Coombes is fit to play but still ends up missing out to Holloway, he'd need to be our best import since Dougie or else why are they contracted at all? To use a farming analogy, it feels like we're putting a lot into raising a herd, only to pour the milk down the drain while buying in stuff that doesn't taste any better.

Tis but a scratch.

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Comment

Our locks are Billy, DOS, Wycherley and SOC. Solid lads but not really comparable to Leinster's pairing of Fardy and Toner. I like to see Fineen and co. getting games but I can understand why the coaches might want somebody with a bit of experience.

I doubt Paddy Butler will start any games for the senior side so I wouldn't worry about that,

True that head to head I wouldn't be happy with Billy, DOS and Wycherly/SOC up against Toner, Fardy and Moloney. However we won't be playing Leinster over the next 2 months. We'll be playing Dragons (H), Kings (A), Cheetahs (A), Ospreys (H), Cardiff (A) and then be integrating Kleyn and Beirne back into the squad.

I think that Billy, DOS Wycherley and SOC can win us enough ball in that run of games and if we were to pick up an injury to two of the above 4 I think that Aherne is worth investing in (and I assume that the professional decision makers agree with me because they put him i the academy 2 years ago directly out of school and they took him to the u20 WC when he was u19 and had spent most of the season out with an injury, i.e. a a fair few professional talent spotters are seeing something very good in him - however we are not allowed to trust their professional judgement unless we have Cowboy's advance written approval of which professionals are certified by him as being trust worthy judges of talent and capacity).

The point of my comparison to Leinster is that they are even thinner in terms of contracted players (17 gone to WC, Leavy out for the season, McGrath to Ulster and SOB to LI were 2 departures announced late in the planning cycle) and Leo has not gone cap in hand Landsdowne Rd looking to bring in cover. Also in terms of balance I'd take a Botha, JOD, TOD with Coombes/Cloete on the bench ahead of Josh Murphy, Deegan, Penney with Dorris/Connors on the bench so overall the 2 back 5s of the pack are at roughly similar strength (maybe Leinster ahead by 5% due to Fardy being an absolute beast of a man who should by rights be in the Wallabies squad for Japan).

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Comment

I like the look of that appointment. Brings serious experience at a high level on the commercial and organization side of sport without the risk of dipping his nose into the rugby side of things directly as that's not his background.

I see that O'Shea will be gone from Italy after the 6N (or perhaps before, not clear). Wonder if we are still considering a DOR position.

Nothing would make me happier than to see O'Shea brought in with a DOR role that covered the entire branch system from grassroots up, taking in schools, clubs, coaching the lot.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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Comment

True that head to head I wouldn't be happy with Billy, DOS and Wycherly/SOC up against Toner, Fardy and Moloney. However we won't be playing Leinster over the next 2 months. We'll be playing Dragons (H), Kings (A), Cheetahs (A), Ospreys (H), Cardiff (A) and then be integrating Kleyn and Beirne back into the squad.

I think that Billy, DOS Wycherley and SOC can win us enough ball in that run of games and if we were to pick up an injury to two of the above 4 I think that Aherne is worth investing in (and I assume that the professional decision makers agree with me because they put him i the academy 2 years ago directly out of school and they took him to the u20 WC when he was u19 and had spent most of the season out with an injury, i.e. a a fair few professional talent spotters are seeing something very good in him - however we are not allowed to trust their professional judgement unless we have Cowboy's advance written approval of which professionals are certified by him as being trust worthy judges of talent and capacity).

The point of my comparison to Leinster is that they are even thinner in terms of contracted players (17 gone to WC, Leavy out for the season, McGrath to Ulster and SOB to LI were 2 departures announced late in the planning cycle) and Leo has not gone cap in hand Landsdowne Rd looking to bring in cover. Also in terms of balance I'd take a Botha, JOD, TOD with Coombes/Cloete on the bench ahead of Josh Murphy, Deegan, Penney with Dorris/Connors on the bench so overall the 2 back 5s of the pack are at roughly similar strength (maybe Leinster ahead by 5% due to Fardy being an absolute beast of a man who should by rights be in the Wallabies squad for Japan).

You've read the posts where I said I am in no position to determine or know who is the required level?

Why you taking potshots?

I am the million man.

Comment

For sure, coaches get to see these lads a lot more than we do, but I can't believe that our guys who shine at U20 6N, or are winning/reaching the knockout stages of the B&I / Celtic Cup, are consistently less capable of breaking through to senior level than their peers at other sides - not when they have performed in a competitive environment at least as well as those opponents and better than many/most. Young lads like Coombes or SOC (both of whom are now on full senior contracts), or Casey this year have, when given the opportunity, shown they have as much talent and grit as any up & coming player from any other team and even as some of those they are seeking to displace in Munster.

The fact that our younger players aren't making the breakthrough could be less about a lack of ability on their part and more indicative of a culture rooted in the notion that you must bide your time and wait till the man ahead of you is finished with his boots. Bill Johnston being fourth in a queue is a case in point, possibly in combination with the "sunk money" notion. I certainly had hopes last season that he would leapfrog somebody ahead of him, and he'd been at least equally as consistent off the tee as either Tyler or JJ had, if not better. I know both of the latter (and Tyler in particular) have had merciless injury issues, but we've stuck with them over & over waiting for them to recover the form they'd shown they were capable of - BillJo just wasn't afforded the same opportunity. Stephen Fitzgerald has been going great guns for Connacht - did anyone see his first try against Russia the other day? The vision to react (speed of thought) and the acceleration to race past his opponents and finish it off ... I can't remember Haley, whose arrival ultimately displaced him, delivering that sort of score for us. I don't have it in for Haley, btw, and support him as much as anyone lining out for us - I just don't see what Fitzgerald wasn't bringing that he is.

These are guys we developed, investing a huge amount of time, money and mentoring. Some are now delivering for other sides, others are still with us but it's starting to look like there are barriers being put in the way of their chance to step up, while we retain or buy in alternatives who thus far aren't visibly head & shoulders above them. If any one of Wycherley, O'Connor, O'Shea or Coombes is fit to play but still ends up missing out to Holloway, he'd need to be our best import since Dougie or else why are they contracted at all? To use a farming analogy, it feels like we're putting a lot into raising a herd, only to pour the milk down the drain while buying in stuff that doesn't taste any better.

That's all reasonable, but I'm looking at it from the other direction, we made an amazing team in the late 00's, then Murr and Pom and that's pretty much it. Niall Scannell and John Ryan are starting to break into the national side now. But I'd ask, who are these missed opportunities? Dave Foley, Paddy Butler, JJ? Ben Betts?

Apart from Zeebs and D.Ryan can you think of any other Munster departure who would play for a top 4 side?

To my eye we haven't seen top end players in a long time now, long before Johann and as the key guys get older, such as Earlsy, Tod Pete etc it's on these young guys to front up and prove they're worth the work. Like Dave Foley, Butler, Dougall, McCabe and so forth should have but never got too far even after leaving imo

It's chicken or egg like, are the players there? Are they being blocked by inferior players due to selection?

I am the million man.

1 like

Comment

That's all reasonable, but I'm looking at it from the other direction, we made an amazing team in the late 00's, then Murr and Pom and that's pretty much it. Niall Scannell and John Ryan are starting to break into the national side now. But I'd ask, who are these missed opportunities? Dave Foley, Paddy Butler, JJ? Ben Betts?

Apart from Zeebs and D.Ryan can you think of any other Munster departure who would play for a top 4 side?

To my eye we haven't seen top end players in a long time now, long before Johann and as the key guys get older, such as Earlsy, Tod Pete etc it's on these young guys to front up and prove they're worth the work. Like Dave Foley, Butler, Dougall, McCabe and so forth should have but never got too far even after leaving imo

It's chicken or egg like, are the players there? Are they being blocked by inferior players due to selection?

There's a generational gap in the Munster squad, imo. Young talent coming through, but for one reason or another a generation of Foley, DOC2, Butler, JJ, Bohane, Holland, Danny Barnes and others just seemed not to happen.

We're not producing enough test quality players and haven't for a long while. Which is why we're filling the gaps with imports.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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Comment

There's a generational gap in the Munster squad, imo. Young talent coming through, but for one reason or another a generation of Foley, DOC2, Butler, JJ, Bohane, Holland, Danny Barnes and others just seemed not to happen.

We're not producing enough test quality players and haven't for a long while. Which is why we're filling the gaps with imports.

That's kinda how I feel tbh.

Imagine Munster jettisoning Conway Carbery beirne loughman - and that's just to us. Is Calvin Nash going to be as good as Andy Conway? Is Turnip?

Whether or not the lads AFH mentioned make the jump is still in the mix but our track record in the last good few years aint too inspiring. Tis one of the reasons why I've Faith in Johann Larkham and Rowntree because the slate is clean for all and the chance is there to stake a claim to new eyes

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