Flip relinquished a good deal of control last year as the starting five pretty much called the shots all year. They used Flip's offense and their own defense to play very well throughout the regular season. It was only in the playoffs where that didn't work. Sheed got hurt, Ben was hurt (?) and the six man rotation ran out of gas.

This year, there should be no "we know how to do it, just let us go" mentality. Flip, hopefully will use a much bigger rotation and work in as many guys as needed. Even if he loses a few extra games in the process.

I think he learned that winning regular season games at all costs (playing just the few most talented players all the time) doesn't get the team ready for the intensity and grind of the playoffs.

... but sometimes the same hatred x 1000 gets annoying after a while and counter productive..

Click to expand...

True, but to those of us who feel the current regime isn't the answer find blind loyalty/support for a coach/gamplan/system, that is likely to fail, annoying and counter productive as well. It endorses a status-quo where "almost IS good enough" and I want no part of that.

If the fans have some minimal power as you suggest to get players, coaches, and the like run out of town. I would like to use every single ounce of my power to get Flip outta here.

True, but to those of us who feel the current regime isn't the answer find blind loyalty/support for a coach/gamplan/system, that is likely to fail, annoying and counter productive as well. It endorses a status-quo where "almost IS good enough" and I want no part of that.

If the fans have some minimal power as you suggest to get players, coaches, and the like run out of town. I would like to use every single ounce of my power to get Flip outta here.

Click to expand...

In your opinion is there any chance that the team could improve under Flip's system? Is it possible to learn from mistake and expand on the basics?
I would like to see him work with a legit post presence before saying it's only a jump shooting team... and yes you are right about improving with repetition inside.... in the same token they have to be willing and able participants

My only concern is that every season, the teams that seem to rise are the ones who make a commitment to defense. All reports from Cleveland are that Mike Brown will not abandon his approach, we already know the commitment to defense and rebounding that Riley instilled in his guys, and Avery Johnson was noted for mixing up his personnel and getting players to buy into getting stops.

It will be great if the Pistons defend well, and score in bunches. Rebounding is going to be a weakness this year, Sheed/Dice will have to step up, and Mohammed needs to have some big games against the contenders.

Somewhere between the polar opinions on the coaching lies the truth and at least from one side (consistently) the players are getting a free pass. The regular season and any records, stats or awards are meaningless. We need to sandbag. And break the dam when the playoffs start!

Somewhere between the polar opinions on the coaching lies the truth and at least from one side (consistently) the players are getting a free pass. The regular season and any records, stats or awards are meaningless. We need to sandbag. And break the dam when the playoffs start!

Click to expand...

That's it in a nutshell. Flip looked like a worthy coach of the year candidate during the regular season. He looked like Bozo in the playoffs.

Hasn't this been the case for several years. I was willing to give him a chance and kept telling everyone that he would be fine. I feel like I was very wrong. This guy has not shown he can win in the playoffs.

I don't care what the reasons are. After 10 years the excuses get old. Winners find a way to get it done.

Aside from that, I think he is full of crap when he speaks. I want him to succeed because I want anyone associated with the team to succeed. But I don't see it happening.

In your opinion is there any chance that the team could improve under Flip's system? Is it possible to learn from mistake and expand on the basics?
I would like to see him work with a legit post presence before saying it's only a jump shooting team... and yes you are right about improving with repetition inside.... in the same token they have to be willing and able participants

Click to expand...

In my opinion...NO. Would I like to see improvement in certain aspects of our current gameplan? Yes. However, Flip has shown that he has no interest in improving, so to speak. We all voiced the concern that the defense would suffer and he swore up and down that the defensive intensity would still be there. Not only did he not maintain that defense, he completely tossed it out. He has said repeatedly that he believes his system works (the same system that employs a minimal defensive focus). So, why would I believe that he will make any adjustments to address the problems on defense that this team faces?

If all coaches simply needed talent and a signing on by the players, there would have been many more NBA Championship teams (see '87 Hawks, '04 Pacers, & '05 Suns). Simply put, some gameplans just don't work. It doesn't matter how much talent you have. Nor does it matter if the players buy in. Sometimes you just have a faulty gameplan and it will get you beat time and time again. Hence, Flips consistent playoff failure stands front and center.

If all coaches simply needed talent and a signing on by the players, there would have been many more NBA Championship teams (see '87 Hawks, '04 Pacers, & '05 Suns). Simply put, some gameplans just don't work. It doesn't matter how much talent you have. Nor does it matter if the players buy in. Sometimes you just have a faulty gameplan and it will get you beat time and time again. Hence, Flips consistent playoff failure stands front and center.

Click to expand...

Yup. Biggest problem with Flip is that he doesn't understand why we lost last year. And if he doesn't know the problem, then how is he supposed to fix it?

Most people think we lost because we were tired, didn't develop a bench, injuries, and lack of adjustments during the playoffs. All of these problems can be corrected if Flip wants to. Except he seems to think we lost because the players didn't listen to him, and didn't follow his game plan.

Which means, instead of working on a bench, keeping the starters rested, he'll concentrate on forcing our guys to perfect a system that works in the regular season, but has been a proven disaster in the playoffs.

In my opinion...NO. Would I like to see improvement in certain aspects of our current gameplan? Yes. However, Flip has shown that he has no interest in improving, so to speak. We all voiced the concern that the defense would suffer and he swore up and down that the defensive intensity would still be there. Not only did he not maintain that defense, he completely tossed it out. He has said repeatedly that he believes his system works (the same system that employs a minimal defensive focus). So, why would I believe that he will make any adjustments to address the problems on defense that this team faces?

If all coaches simply needed talent and a signing on by the players, there would have been many more NBA Championship teams (see '87 Hawks, '04 Pacers, & '05 Suns). Simply put, some gameplans just don't work. It doesn't matter how much talent you have. Nor does it matter if the players buy in. Sometimes you just have a faulty gameplan and it will get you beat time and time again. Hence, Flips consistent playoff failure stands front and center.

Click to expand...

If we had given up more points I might buy the drop off in defense... it doesn't matter how it gets done ... the end result is did the opponents score more... the answer is NO THEY DID NOT.
One of the biggest complaints from previous years was stagnant offenses... this include the LB regime... I'd have to look at our playoff scoring vs prevous years... but I think you'll find that it was very close.
I do know that this team missed a tremendous amount of open shots in the playoffs... that is part of the coaches responsibilty to create open looks... the players need to finish.... if you chose to blame that on the coach thats fine but unfair.
Flip did not come up with a plan to create more inside scoring and FT attempts... I completely agree with you on this.
He did not devise a plan to slow down Wade (as LB didn't) other than a couple games.
He did devise a plan to keep Cleveland and Miami's scoring down...
Where the hard line detractors won't show any open mindness is giving Flip credit for anything... I have no problem blaming his failures... it's part of being objective and flexible...
I hope Delfino kicks ass and takes names so I can gladly say I was wrong...
If the the team does well willl you give any credit to Flip?... I sort of doubt it... it's ok to admit being wrong sometimes.

If we had given up more points I might buy the drop off in defense... it doesn't matter how it gets done ... the end result is did the opponents score more... the answer is NO THEY DID NOT....
If the the team does well willl you give any credit to Flip?... I sort of doubt it... it's ok to admit being wrong sometimes.

Click to expand...

2 Points:

A) When I am proven wrong by the perfomance of this team and Flip's system, I will be the first to admit it. I said that all of last season and I stand by it.

B) Opponent's PPG is not the only determining factor in a poor defensive showing; just as our slightly increased PPG output was not evidence of a major improvement on offense as the playoffs so clearly showed. The two most important things that were a major drop off from the LB years are:

1. The ridiculously high percentage our opponents shot during the season and the playoffs. Miami torched us from the field and it wasn't because they had the best shooters the NBA has ever seen. It is entirely due to the fact that our defensive scheme essentially made Ben the only presence in the lane which relegated him to either picking up cheap fouls for chasing everyone's man or being forced to rebound 1 on 3.
​

and

2. The return to the Cola Era's practice of double teaming EVERYBODY on the opposing team that even looked like they could score. How many games were we going to continue to be picked apart by Lebron and anyone else who could figure out how to pass the ball? It took Flip an entire 7 game series and nearly a humiliating 2nd round defeat to figure it out and he STILL tried do it against Wade. LB figured out early on in his coaching tenure that 1 player won't score 104 by himself and cause you to lose AND we have a team of guys who CAN play man to man AND succeed without resorting to a college level defensive scheme. However, Flip managed to skip class that day.
​

A) When I am proven wrong by the perfomance of this team and Flip's system, I will be the first to admit it. I said that all of last season and I stand by it.

B) Opponent's PPG is not the only determining factor in a poor defensive showing; just as our slightly increased PPG output was not evidence of a major improvement on offense as the playoffs so clearly showed. The two most important things that were a major drop off from the LB years are:

1. The ridiculously high percentage our opponents shot during the season and the playoffs. Miami torched us from the field and it wasn't because they had the best shooters the NBA has ever seen. It is entirely due to the fact that our defensive scheme essentially made Ben the only presence in the lane which relegated him to either picking up cheap fouls for chasing everyone's man or being forced to rebound 1 on 3.​

and

2. The return to the Cola Era's practice of double teaming EVERYBODY on the opposing team that even looked like they could score. How many games were we going to continue to be picked apart by Lebron and anyone else who could figure out how to pass the ball? It took Flip an entire 7 game series and nearly a humiliating 2nd round defeat to figure it out and he STILL tried do it against Wade. LB figured out early on in his coaching tenure that 1 player won't score 104 by himself and cause you to lose AND we have a team of guys who CAN play man to man AND succeed without resorting to a college level defensive scheme. However, Flip managed to skip class that day.​

Click to expand...

One minor detail... The Heat were much healthier this time around... and we were less healthy...it matters... if you beieve this whole thing is on Flip I can't help you.

One of the problems I have with flip is that the team is boring now. Where is the heady play? I used to love seeing that open jumper but when you see it 85% of the game, it starts to look like a NBA Live 06 demo...without the acrobatics. Mixing it up would be nice. Penetrate and dish, work the post. Ball movement is decent when its working together but the defense never gets caught out of position except where the shooter gets an open look.

I watched a lot of VSL and the plays were similar to the regular team. What I see is the paint controlled by the defensive team when a shot comes off the rim. We hardly get offesive boards. The other team gets in the lane and while we rotate, the opposing big gets in there...a lot of times they get a putback or a foul. Seeing similar results from different players, you have to wonder if its the system.

One minor detail... The Heat were much healthier this time around... and we were less healthy...it matters... if you beieve this whole thing is on Flip I can't help you.

Click to expand...

I'd honestly say, 80% Flip 20% Players (due to the willingness to fire up jumpers all day and consistently give up dribble penetration while not challenging at the rim). Additionally, even with a healthy MIA, I feel LB would have been able to make our guys stay at home and not get beaten by the "rest" of those guys. LB's scheme would have beaten CLE in 5 and I think we would have gotten by MIA in 6 or 7 (ESPECIALLY with home court in BOTH series).

One of the problems I have with flip is that the team is boring now. Where is the heady play? I used to love seeing that open jumper but when you see it 85% of the game, it starts to look like a NBA Live 06 demo...without the acrobatics. Mixing it up would be nice. Penetrate and dish, work the post. Ball movement is decent when its working together but the defense never gets caught out of position except where the shooter gets an open look.

I watched a lot of VSL and the plays were similar to the regular team. What I see is the paint controlled by the defensive team when a shot comes off the rim. We hardly get offesive boards. The other team gets in the lane and while we rotate, the opposing big gets in there...a lot of times they get a putback or a foul. Seeing similar results from different players, you have to wonder if its the system.

Click to expand...

Exactly, you could recognize the same plays even in summer league with guys that have no idea how to run it. I just don't believe it works and it's kind of frustrating to just sit back and wait for it to fail.