I think maybe you have reached the point, or are close to it, where you have to make a business decision. For example, I think you have demonstrated that you can make a 1-3 hour, high-yeast, emergency Buddy's clone dough at market. A good part of that effort was to try to reverse engineer and clone the Buddy's dough and pizzas and, in that respect, you have done an exemplary job. However, if such a dough is not practical at market, you might now want to shift your attention to a dough formulation and related dough preparation and management that is better suited to market. That might be a cold fermented version of the Buddy's dough such as you have tested on several occasions.

At the moment, I am only aware of one pizza operator that makes a cold fermented Detroit style dough. That is Via 313. I don't know their dough formulation, and particularly the hydration the Hunt brothers use to make the dough, and also the amount of yeast, but if you look at the photos of their pizzas, such as the ones shown at their website (http://via313.com/) and in Yelp reviews (http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/via-313-pizza-austin?select=quBst2A8N8Sx8gMCl7E7Jg#571KK5bmUn7n9fZZAva86g), they do not strike me as having a great deal of height in the finished crust. In the absence of insider information, I have no explanation for why the Via313 pizzas do not have especially thick crusts, at least in my opinion after having looked at a lot of photos of their pizzas.

If you decide to concentrate now on a cold fermented version of the Buddy's dough, you will want to determine all of the relevant parameters. These include the duration of the cold fermentation period, when you want to use the dough to make pizzas, and what resources you will have available to make and manage the dough. Once these parameters have been defined, they will be used to determine what hydration to use, how much yeast to use, and what finished dough temperature to target. In this latter regard, it is possible that the finished dough temperature you used for your last batch of dough balls was too low, and may have caused you to rely more on your Hatco unit to compensate.

Looks great to me Norma! Even though these may not have been as tall as you've been making, that crumb shot in pic 8 looks killer. Almost identical to the Via313 pics Peter linked to...delicious looking pizza you are making and I was glad to see you try one with pepperoni on top. You were right, it's not a "cupping" type pepperoni.The Buddy's box was a cool touch and your friend Dave's card is real cool too.

I think maybe you have reached the point, or are close to it, where you have to make a business decision. For example, I think you have demonstrated that you can make a 1-3 hour, high-yeast, emergency Buddy's clone dough at market. A good part of that effort was to try to reverse engineer and clone the Buddy's dough and pizzas and, in that respect, you have done an exemplary job. However, if such a dough is not practical at market, you might now want to shift your attention to a dough formulation and related dough preparation and management that is better suited to market. That might be a cold fermented version of the Buddy's dough such as you have tested on several occasions.

At the moment, I am only aware of one pizza operator that makes a cold fermented Detroit style dough. That is Via 313. I don't know their dough formulation, and particularly the hydration the Hunt brothers use to make the dough, and also the amount of yeast, but if you look at the photos of their pizzas, such as the ones shown at their website (http://via313.com/) and in Yelp reviews (http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/via-313-pizza-austin?select=quBst2A8N8Sx8gMCl7E7Jg#571KK5bmUn7n9fZZAva86g), they do not strike me as having a great deal of height in the finished crust. In the absence of insider information, I have no explanation for why the Via313 pizzas do not have especially thick crusts, at least in my opinion after having looked at a lot of photos of their pizzas.

If you decide to concentrate now on a cold fermented version of the Buddy's dough, you will want to determine all of the relevant parameters. These include the duration of the cold fermentation period, when you want to use the dough to make pizzas, and what resources you will have available to make and manage the dough. Once these parameters have been defined, they will be used to determine what hydration to use, how much yeast to use, and what finished dough temperature to target. In this latter regard, it is possible that the finished dough temperature you used for your last batch of dough balls was too low, and may have caused you to rely more on your Hatco unit to compensate.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the links to Via 313 pictures, so I could look at them again. I had forgotten really how high they looked in height and although I haven’t seen Via 313 pizzas in person, they do look similar in height to my pizzas from the dough that is cold fermented. I think from an earlier post on this thread by another member that Via 313 is also using more dough in weight than I am right now, but really don't think that would make much of any difference in the final bake height.

I have to think about what the relevant parameters might be for a cold fermented dough at market. I do know the dough would have to be cold fermented for one day, because there are too many variables in the market temperatures throughout the year to try something else. I didn’t think about my finished dough temperature might have been too low in my last batch. I was only thinking about mixing the dough the fastest way I could. I know you are away for the Xmas holidays now, so I don’t expect any help for you. I would like a Detroit style pizza that is higher in height than what I am getting now from a cold fermented dough.

Looks great to me Norma! Even though these may not have been as tall as you've been making, that crumb shot in pic 8 looks killer. Almost identical to the Via313 pics Peter linked to...delicious looking pizza you are making and I was glad to see you try one with pepperoni on top. You were right, it's not a "cupping" type pepperoni.The Buddy's box was a cool touch and your friend Dave's card is real cool too.

Merry Christmas Norma....thanks for all your hard work!! Bob

Bob,

The Buddy’s clone pizzas are good in the crumb texture with the cold ferment, but I really don’t think customers would like the lower bake heights if they saw Detroit style pizzas that were higher in bake heights. It might just be me, but I like the higher bake heights.

I've only eaten at Buddy's twice, but thought the cheese was mild tasting.

Jeff,

Thanks for telling me that you thought the cheese on Buddy's pizza was mild. That is what Steve and I thought from the partly baked pizza I purchased, but just wanted to make sure what other members might think, since my Buddy's pizza did have to be baked again.

I think using part cheedar and mozzarella do also give a Buddy's clone pizza a good taste, but probably won't be able to purchase brick cheese for my Buddy's clones at market. Probably in the end I will have to offer a modified Buddy's clone.

Thanks for telling me that you thought the cheese on Buddy's pizza was mild. That is what Steve and I thought from the partly baked pizza I purchased, but just wanted to make sure what other members might think, since my Buddy's pizza did have to be baked again.

I think using part cheedar and mozzarella do also give a Buddy's clone pizza a good taste, but probably won't be able to purchase brick cheese for my Buddy's clones at market. Probably in the end I will have to offer a modified Buddy's clone.

Norma

Mozzarella cheddar blend sounds good. I personally like that blend or mozzarella provolone blend on those type pizzas sometimes.

I personally like that blend or mozzarella provolone blend on those type pizzas sometimes.

Jeff,

The mozzarella provolone blend sounds good to me too. I did try something like that one time here on this thread when I used the Grande cheddar, provolone and mozzarellas blend. I thought that was good. Do the edges taste as good with only the mozzarella provolone blend?

The mozzarella provolone blend sounds good to me too. I did try something like that one time here on this thread when I used the Grande cheddar, provolone and mozzarellas blend. I thought that was good. Do the edges taste as good with only the mozzarella provolone blend?

Norma

I think it does. Different but still good. I'm fortunate to have Grande mozzarella and provolone right at my local deli which I like. In the past I've gotten provolone that didn't have much flavor or a fake smokey flavor that didn't work for me.

Have you ever tried Weyauwega Dairy cheese? I'm not sure if they are distributed by you but they make good cheese that is always fresh and flavorful including brick. Their website is http://wegastardairy.com/

I think it does. Different but still good. I'm fortunate to have Grande mozzarella and provolone right at my local deli which I like. In the past I've gotten provolone that didn't have much flavor or a fake smokey flavor that didn't work for me.

Have you ever tried Weyauwega Dairy cheese? I'm not sure if they are distributed by you but they make good cheese that is always fresh and flavorful including brick. Their website is http://wegastardairy.com/

Jeff,

You are fortunate to have access to Grande mozzarella and provolone at your local deli. I would have to go to Reading, Pa., or purchase Grande from a local pizza operator. I am not a big enough pizza business to purchase Grande cheese directly from them.

No, I have not tried any Weyauwega Dairy cheeses. I see their brick cheese is aged. Did you ever try the Weyauwega brick cheese? Thanks for the link for Weyauwega cheeses. I haven’t seen Weyauwega cheese in my area, but I can check it out.

I only saved one slice of the Buddy’s clone emergency dough cheese Margherita Coarse Sliced Pepperoni pizza without salt to see how it would reheat and also to see if it would taste anything like the Buddy’s pizza I had ordered.

The Buddy’s emergency dough pizza without salt slice reheated very well on my pizza stone. The cheese tasted very good and the bottom and sides of the crusts were nice and crispy. I had wanted to also see if the sauce blend I used on the Buddy’s emergency dough pizza would taste anything like the real Buddy’s pizza from the reheat. I would say the sauce did taste like the real Buddy’s pizza that was half-baked on the reheat of my slice. It even looked the same to me as when Steve and I fully baked the real Buddy’s half-baked pizza. If I would have to say, I would say that my Buddy’s clone emergency dough slice without salt tasted better than the real Buddy’s pizza. The Margherita Coarse Slice Pepperoni on my clone Buddy’s pizza slice did taste exactly like the pepperoni on Buddy’s pizza.

I also thought some about what parameters I might have for market if I am going to try and get as decent of a Buddy’s clone pizza that I can to keep offering potential customers. I know I am going to have problems with a cold fermented Buddy’s clone dough in getting the rise in the height that I desire. I guess I will up the IDY amount and also up the final dough temperature to see if that works better this coming Sunday for Monday. If I want some Buddy’s clone pizzas ready for any customers that might want any by 10:30 AM, I know I am going to have to try to warm-up the dough balls as fast as I can. I am not sure if I should put them in the Hatco Unit to warm-up some before the dough is placed in the steel pans. I know I will probably have to use the Hatco Unit to also temper the dough in the steel pans. What I am not sure about if I should up my TF some or not. I do want more height in my final Buddy’s clone pizzas and also do still want to keep the tenderness in the crumb while also keeping the crisp caramelized edges and crisp bottom crust. I don’t know if I will be able to accomplish all of this with having to use the dough balls different times during the day when the dough will be all made the day before market. I am not sure whether I want to use any salt in the dough formulation yet, but really I don’t see any reason to use it. If I don’t use salt for a one day cold fermented Buddy’s clone dough, I am not sure of how much yeast to try, or what kind of final dough temperature I should try. I am also not sure what temperature I want to try in the Hatco Unit, but the temperature does stay constant when I used the knob to set the temperature. I will think all of this over a some more.

The 2nd to 6th pictures are of the Buddy’s clone cheese pepperoni slice before the reheat and the last 5 pictures are after the reheat. The very first picture is our weather in our area.

I gave the other 2 slices and another 4-square Buddy’s clone pizza to my great-granddaughter and grandson yesterday to take home to reheat, because they also really like the Buddy’s clone pizzas and I sure don‘t need all those slices.

I might try a Buddy’s clone emergency dough without salt and use brick cheese and Margherita Coarse Slice Pepperoni just to see what happens in my home oven on Thursday or Friday if I find time. I really don’t think that will give anymore data or prove anything, but I would like to see at some point in time if I can make the same pizza I had made on Monday in my home oven.

It is another windy, snowy, freezing rain and sleet day in our area today.

One thing I wonder about if the real Buddy’s pizza was more than half-baked. I would think it was, but really don’t know.

No, I have not tried any Weyauwega Dairy cheeses. I see their brick cheese is aged. Did you ever try the Weyauwega brick cheese? Thanks for the link for Weyauwega cheeses. I haven’t seen Weyauwega cheese in my area, but I can check it out.

Norma

I've had quite a few of their cheeses including the brick and like them all. They sell quite a bit direct around here, so it's always fresh. If you see it around try some!

I have been thinking about your situation. Do you have storage capacity for cold fermenting the dough balls directly in the pans?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I do have storage capacity in my deli case (on the shelfs) for cold fermenting the dough balls directly in the steel pans, or even could put some steel pans on top of my dough balls in the pizza prep fridge.

I had planned to list many of the ways that a dough formulation like the Buddy's clone dough formulation can be modified to speed things up in the context of a cold fermentation but saw that you already mentioned a few of those ways. However, I thought that it still might be useful to provide that list. Also, in your case, I think I would target 10:30AM at market as the time at which you would be able to use the dough to make a pizza. However, even then, you may need to use your Hatco unit to take the chill off of the dough and get it to rise a bit sooner. In no particular order, here is my list:

1. Increase the amount of yeast.2. Increase the finished dough temperature (as by using warmer water or a heating/proofing unit of some sort).3. Subject the finished dough to a brief fermentation period at room temperature before cooling.4. Increase the amount of dough.5. Increase the formula hydration (with maybe a few stretch and folds).6. Temper the dough upon removal from the cooling unit at an elevated temperature.7. Various combinations of the above.

I did not say anything about salt in the above list but in your case I would not use any salt. That should also help speed up the fermentation process because there will not be any inhibiting effect that salt at normal levels has on yeast performance. Also, as I have discussed before, as hard as I tried working with everything we know about the Buddy's dough and testing several different scenarios, I was unable to establish that Buddy's uses any salt in its dough. If is is there, and assuming that Buddy's Nutrition data is correct, it is minuscule at the dough ball level and will not have any material effect on either dough performance or the taste of the finished crust.

I do not have a magic wand to wave to come up with the best combination of the measures given in the above list to use in your case. You operate with too many possible variables at market to come up with a one-size-fits-all dough that will work to fill an order at any give time of the day at market. You will no doubt have to juggle use of your heating and cooling units at market to keep the dough where it needs to be to make an acceptable pizza. One advantage you have, however, is that you have the option of making an emergency Buddy's clone dough at market if you have a roughly 1-3 hour available to you within which to make such a dough. Aside from logistical considerations, you might be able to use both cold fermented variations of the Buddy's clone dough and emergency versions of that dough at market.

In your case, leveraging off of what we already know about what you have done to date with the Buddy's clone doughs, you might try the following: Increase the amount of dough to about 9.5 ounces, increase the amount of IDY to 1%, target a finished dough temperature of about 85 degrees F, and let the dough ferment at room temperature for about 20 minutes before cooling. I would put the dough balls directly into their pans at the outset to then go into your chosen cooling unit. The following day, you would visually assess the degree of expansion of the dough upon your arrival at market and determine whether there will be a need to use your Hatco unit to warm up the dough before using.

At some point, I think it would be interesting and instructive to try increasing the amount of water used in a Buddy's clone dough, maybe from about 71% to about 73%. That measure might be additive to the measures suggested above. However, I don't see a need for such a hydration increase at this point and would perhaps only suggest same if the other measures do not do the trick. Of course, there is no reason why you can't conduct hydration experiments, or any other for that matter, at home. They don't all have to be done at market.

I had planned to list many of the ways that a dough formulation like the Buddy's clone dough formulation can be modified to speed things up in the context of a cold fermentation but saw that you already mentioned a few of those ways. However, I thought that it still might be useful to provide that list. Also, in your case, I think I would target 10:30AM at market as the time at which you would be able to use the dough to make a pizza. However, even then, you may need to use your Hatco unit to take the chill off of the dough and get it to rise a bit sooner. In no particular order, here is my list:

1. Increase the amount of yeast.2. Increase the finished dough temperature (as by using warmer water or a heating/proofing unit of some sort).3. Subject the finished dough to a brief fermentation period at room temperature before cooling.4. Increase the amount of dough.5. Increase the formula hydration (with maybe a few stretch and folds).6. Temper the dough upon removal from the cooling unit at an elevated temperature.7. Various combinations of the above.

I did not say anything about salt in the above list but in your case I would not use any salt. That should also help speed up the fermentation process because there will not be any inhibiting effect that salt at normal levels has on yeast performance. Also, as I have discussed before, as hard as I tried working with everything we know about the Buddy's dough and testing several different scenarios, I was unable to establish that Buddy's uses any salt in its dough. If is is there, and assuming that Buddy's Nutrition data is correct, it is minuscule at the dough ball level and will not have any material effect on either dough performance or the taste of the finished crust.

I do not have a magic wand to wave to come up with the best combination of the measures given in the above list to use in your case. You operate with too many possible variables at market to come up with a one-size-fits-all dough that will work to fill an order at any give time of the day at market. You will no doubt have to juggle use of your heating and cooling units at market to keep the dough where it needs to be to make an acceptable pizza. One advantage you have, however, is that you have the option of making an emergency Buddy's clone dough at market if you have a roughly 1-3 hour available to you within which to make such a dough. Aside from logistical considerations, you might be able to use both cold fermented variations of the Buddy's clone dough and emergency versions of that dough at market.

In your case, leveraging off of what we already know about what you have done to date with the Buddy's clone doughs, you might try the following: Increase the amount of dough to about 9.5 ounces, increase the amount of IDY to 1%, target a finished dough temperature of about 85 degrees F, and let the dough ferment at room temperature for about 20 minutes before cooling. I would put the dough balls directly into their pans at the outset to then go into your chosen cooling unit. The following day, you would visually assess the degree of expansion of the dough upon your arrival at market and determine whether there will be a need to use your Hatco unit to warm up the dough before using.

At some point, I think it would be interesting and instructive to try increasing the amount of water used in a Buddy's clone dough, maybe from about 71% to about 73%. That measure might be additive to the measures suggested above. However, I don't see a need for such a hydration increase at this point and would perhaps only suggest same if the other measures do not do the trick. Of course, there is no reason why you can't conduct hydration experiments, or any other for that matter, at home. They don't all have to be done at market.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for providing a list on ways that the Buddy’s clone dough formulation can be modified to speed things up and also going over everything you think that might work to make a better Buddy‘s clone pizza at market.

I won’t use any salt in the formulation. I don’t know why I didn’t think about salt inhibiting the fermentation process, but I surely didn’t. I know you have discussed before that as hard as you tried working with everything we know about the Buddy’s dough, that you were unable to establish that Buddy’s uses any salt in its dough. I can’t really notice any difference if salt isn’t used in the Buddy’s dough formulation in the final taste of the Buddy’s clone pizza crusts.

I understand that you wouldn’t have a magic wand to come up with the best combinations to use since market has so many variables. I could try going to market earlier and making an emergency dough in combination with a cold fermentation Buddy’s clone dough, if the cold fermented version alone doesn’t work out well enough. An emergency dough should carry me to about 2:00 PM in the afternoon, or maybe even a little longer if I would then possibly put the steel pans in the deli case so the dough doesn’t keep fermenting as much. You don’t think there would be any possible way I could use an emergency dough for all day long, without making more than one batch of dough do you?

I will try increasing the amount of dough to about 9.5 ounces, increase the amount of IDY to 1%, try to get a finished dough temperature of about 85 degrees F, and let the dough ferment at room temperature for about 20 minutes before cooling. I will also put the dough balls directly into their pans at the outset and then put them in one of the cooling units.

I will wait and see what happens before I try to increase the hydration for market use. I do have a steel pan at home and might try to increase the hydration and use the other things you have listed to see what happens. My home refrigerator is close to my cooling units in temperature.

You don’t think there would be any possible way I could use an emergency dough for all day long, without making more than one batch of dough do you?

Norma,

The main problem is getting the 10:30AM emergency Buddy's clone dough balls. If you were to go to market about three hours sooner, that is, at 7:30 AM, you could make your 0.80% IDY Buddy's clone dough balls at about that time and use the first one at 10:30AM and hold the rest of the dough balls in one of the cooler units until needed to fill later orders.

An alternative approach would be to use, say, 1% IDY and a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, and make one-hour emergency Buddy's clone dough balls at about 9:30AM. The first one could be used at 10:30AM and the rest could be held in one of your cooler units until needed to fill later orders.

If the 10:30AM dough balls were not needed, then you could use less yeast (depending on when you decide to make the dough) and spread the use of the dough balls in a more balanced way across the day. You could do the same sort of thing with cold fermented dough balls.

The more yeast that is used to make the dough balls and the higher their finished dough temperatures the harder it is to make them last throughout the day without overfermenting. You have to juggle use of your cooling units and learn when to pull the dough balls/pans to get them ready to make the pizzas. I suspect that Buddy's avoids these types of issues by making multiple dough batches throughout the day, based on historical volumes for each day.

The main problem is getting the 10:30AM emergency Buddy's clone dough balls. If you were to go to market about three hours sooner, that is, at 7:30 AM, you could make your 0.80% IDY Buddy's clone dough balls at about that time and use the first one at 10:30AM and hold the rest of the dough balls in one of the cooler units until needed to fill later orders.

An alternative approach would be to use, say, 1% IDY and a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, and make one-hour emergency Buddy's clone dough balls at about 9:30AM. The first one could be used at 10:30AM and the rest could be held in one of your cooler units until needed to fill later orders.

If the 10:30AM dough balls were not needed, then you could use less yeast (depending on when you decide to make the dough) and spread the use of the dough balls in a more balanced way across the day. You could do the same sort of thing with cold fermented dough balls.

The more yeast that is used to make the dough balls and the higher their finished dough temperatures the harder it is to make them last throughout the day without overfermenting. You have to juggle use of your cooling units and learn when to pull the dough balls/pans to get them ready to make the pizzas. I suspect that Buddy's avoids these types of issues by making multiple dough batches throughout the day, based on historical volumes for each day.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts about what I might try to do if I decide to make some Buddy’s clone emergency doughs in different ways at market.

I know it probably would be difficult to use a lot of yeast and a higher final dough temperature and then not have the dough balls overferment in a long days time.

I also suspected that Buddy’s knows what to expect in amounts of sales from being open so many years and also that is why they make different batches throughout the day.

I will probably have to experiment some more if I decide to go with some emergency Buddy’s clone dough balls. I do have a hot plate that I can heat water in a pan on. I don’t use the market water for my doughs, because sometimes the water is yellow and also cloudy. I don’t trust that well water even though it is supposed to be tested.

I mixed a Buddy’s clone emergency dough with the formulation below. The dough ball was placed in the steel pan at 9:24 PM this evening so maybe I can use it to make a Buddy’s clone pizza later tomorrow afternoon, or early evening to see how it works out, in comparison to what I want to try at market. I did let the dough ball sit in the steel pan for 20 minutes before placing it in the bottom of my refrigerator. The bottom of my refrigerator was 39.8 degrees F. The final dough temperature was 86.3 degrees F., which was a little over my targeted final dough temperature. The dough was mixed the same with the flat beater again. The dough ball was scaled to 9.5 ounces. I did place poppy seeds on the dough ball to see if I can tell how much it ferments. I am not sure how much I will have to press the dough ball out tomorrow, or when I should do that. The steel pan was oiled with Canola oil as was the dough ball. I used Glad wrap so the dough ball doesn’t dry out and used a large rubber band so the Glad wrap would fit as tight as I could get it.