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So that pretty much rips holes in the report you posted, and it's mention of no centralised missile impact. Pretty much shows that there wasn't much thought went into the theory and it lacked expertise knowledge.

Because they didn't, why would they? There was no aerial threat from the seperatists so why risk military equipment in an area of conflict? Let alone 5 units!

Or are you suggesting that they deployed 5 missile units to the area with the sole intention of shooting down a passenger airline???

Really? What does it actually say? It certainly doesn't scream out "we did it" to me.

Jeez, now you think that the UK government are in on this conspiracy as well? Are there any countries that you would have allowed the black boxes to be anylised in? Russia maybe?

So you quote an OSCE inspector as back up to this conspiracy theory, but dismiss observations from numerous other OSCE inspectors as unsubstantiated or misinformation?

An Independent investigator that has no understanding of the 9M317 missile, no evidence that dismisses all the other aspects of the investigation and his whole theory is based on one image that he's downloaded of the Internet.

It's quite clear who you believe. Why you believe it though is another question altogether.

Its quite clear who you believe also and that's not another question just another msm sponge that will believe anything they say , again you obviously think what you think and i will think what i think , after all its still a free country at the moment , and we will wait for the truth to come out. If ever !!

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Originally Posted by timberfox

Its quite clear who you believe also and that's not another question just another msm sponge that will believe anything they say , again you obviously think what you think and i will think what i think , after all its still a free country at the moment , and we will wait for the truth to come out. If ever !!

In this conflict of propoganda and misinformation I rarely take anyones word for things, and instead will try and check the information myself.
Russian has carried out a very effective tactic of lies and misinformation so far, and anything (and I mean anything) that they say has to be taken with a pinch of salt.
For months Russia have been denying supplying weapons, ammunition and trained merceneries to Eastern Ukraine, then 3 days ago an independent journalist, and numerous OSCE observers, spotted a convoy of tanks, APC's and armed military heading through a Russian border post and heading down seperatist held territory towards Lugansk. Of course Russia immediately denied this (another lie from them) but with independent witnesses and photographic evidence it's only the most easily taken in that will actually believe the denial.

With regards to MH17, you just need to ask yourself a couple of simple questions.
Why would someone want to shoot it down?
What would they have to gain by shooting it down?

It's easy to blame one side or the other as the war of misinformation fires back and forth, but it takes a bit more brain-power to start asking the questions and properly researching the claims and counter-claims.

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In this conflict of propoganda and misinformation I rarely take anyones word for things, and instead will try and check the information myself.
Russian has carried out a very effective tactic of lies and misinformation so far, and anything (and I mean anything) that they say has to be taken with a pinch of salt.
For months Russia have been denying supplying weapons, ammunition and trained merceneries to Eastern Ukraine, then 3 days ago an independent journalist, and numerous OSCE observers, spotted a convoy of tanks, APC's and armed military heading through a Russian border post and heading down seperatist held territory towards Lugansk. Of course Russia immediately denied this (another lie from them) but with independent witnesses and photographic evidence it's only the most easily taken in that will actually believe the denial.

With regards to MH17, you just need to ask yourself a couple of simple questions.
Why would someone want to shoot it down?
What would they have to gain by shooting it down?

It's easy to blame one side or the other as the war of misinformation fires back and forth, but it takes a bit more brain-power to start asking the questions and properly researching the claims and counter-claims.

The fact that you had to ask these two questions proves to me that you believe anything the msm tells you , try looking further afield to things like AP , RT TODAY, ALJAZEERA and lots of independent sites , The USA is almost broke beyond help it needs ww3 to start its the only way the dollar and USA will survive , the misinformation is all from them and Kiev is just doing as its told by its bosses in Washington, don't forget the middle east started with Iraq lies because Saddam wanted to drop the petrol-dollar and trade oil in gold standard , funnily enough so then did Gaddafi and so did Iran see a picture forming ???? You believe whatever msm tells you to believe but I'm more broad minded and will get my info from more trusted sources than a media that is bought and paid for by the 1% thank you , as far as mh17 we will await the official release /cover up , and the most misinformation has come from the USA/KIEV side , i.e Kiev questioned by Dutch authorities as to where it got it info regarding mh17 as nothing had been released yet , and AP rep questioned white house rep and was finally told they got their info for the downing of flight mh17 from you tube and social media but as i said we will wait until if ever the truth comes out ,

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by egb_hibs

Timber fox -
You've seized on an obscure source that mirrors what you want to be the case and seem to feel it is now case closed.
Your accusations at Stevie are a bit rum in that context.

I agree the report is intersting btw but have no idea of what kind of credibility to attach to it. Do you - and on what basis other than it fits your preferences.

Stevie, btw, while I'm sure he wouldn't claim to be all knowing, has a deep interest in the region compared to the rest of us, and is drawing on sources far wider than the British Msm.

I think you should quit playing the man and stick to playing the ball

As i have said again , we will wait until the truth comes out , only then will we hopefully know

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Originally Posted by timberfox

The fact that you had to ask these two questions proves to me that you believe anything the msm tells you , try looking further afield to things like AP , RT TODAY, ALJAZEERA and lots of independent sites

What?? Are you for real?

I have been following this situation for years, and the msm had reported zilch on the Ukrainian situation until MH17 was brought down .. and had actually gone quiet again until current the Russian Aid convoy situation.
All the information I get is from other sources, including RT (btw it's just RT, not RT TODAY).

It would be impossible for me to believe your version of events regarding MH17 because there are so many contradictions and plain guess work.
Putting aside the c0ckpit theory you posted, you seem to be claiming that MH17 was shot down by Ukrainian military. You then go on to make an issue of there (supposedly) being 5 Ukrainian BUK in the area. The smart person would of course immediately ask what the relevence of the BUK in the area is if the plane was shot full of holes from a Ukrainian fighter jet? Is this just thrown in as back-up incase the fighter jet theory is disproved and you can follow up with an "ah, but .."?

There's a saying .. when you're in a hole, stop digging.

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I have been following this situation for years, and the msm had reported zilch on the Ukrainian situation until MH17 was brought down .. and had actually gone quiet again until current the Russian Aid convoy situation.
All the information I get is from other sources, including RT (btw it's just RT, not RT TODAY).

It would be impossible for me to believe your version of events regarding MH17 because there are so many contradictions and plain guess work.
Putting aside the c0ckpit theory you posted, you seem to be claiming that MH17 was shot down by Ukrainian military. You then go on to make an issue of there (supposedly) being 5 Ukrainian BUK in the area. The smart person would of course immediately ask what the relevence of the BUK in the area is if the plane was shot full of holes from a Ukrainian fighter jet? Is this just thrown in as back-up incase the fighter jet theory is disproved and you can follow up with an "ah, but .."?

There's a saying .. when you're in a hole, stop digging.

Far from being in a hole , I'm standing on top of a very high mountain , just as afterthought , there is photographic proof of Kiev having deployed BUK in the area for whatever reason , and there is also radar proof of 2 su-25 military planes on radar which has already been given to OSCE by Russia , but as yet still no proof from Keiv or USA i wonder why ?? Kiev were quick enough to supply photos of BUK allegedly owned by the rebels even although they had none and this was confirmed by Russia with radar and satellite photos , again of which none has been forthcoming from Kiev or USA , But again i say we will all know if /when the truth comes out ,although i wont be holding my breath it stinks of one big cover up

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Originally Posted by timberfox

Far from being in a hole , I'm standing on top of a very high mountain

Certainly standing on a very high pile of something.

Originally Posted by timberfox

there is photographic proof of Kiev having deployed BUK in the area for whatever reason , and there is also radar proof of 2 su-25 military planes on radar which has already been given to OSCE by Russia

So was it shot down by a fighter jet or by a 9M317?? If you have all the evidence then which is it?

As I mentioned before .. statements from Russia saying that they have proof, without actually providing the proof, is hardly a case for a decent argument.
Russia also stated recently that they had agreement with Ukraine and ICRC regarding the deployment of a 280 truck load of humanitarian aid .. and guess what .. neither Ukraine not ICRC had actually agreed to anything and the (military) trucks are still sitting at a military base close to a sepratist held border point.
The point being that at the moment nothing that Russia says can be taken as being the truth.

Originally Posted by timberfox

but as yet still no proof from Keiv or USA i wonder why ??

As I mentioned days ago, when you brought this up before, maybe it's because they are letting the investigation team carry out their work and let them reach their conclusions without trying to muddy the waters during that process. That seems to be the sensible approach.

Originally Posted by timberfox

Kiev were quick enough to supply photos of BUK allegedly owned by the rebels even although they had none and this was confirmed by Russia with radar and satellite photos

Even though they had none? Everyone and their dog was putting up photos and youtube clips of the Russian tanks, APC's and missile units that were rumbling through the various eastern cities of Ukraine. The fact that Russia tried to provide evidence that there were none there is simply confirmation that they are carrying out a campaign of misinformation and lies.

Originally Posted by timberfox

But again i say we will all know if /when the truth comes out ,although i wont be holding my breath it stinks of one big cover up

The truth is already out there, you just need to be prepared to go looking for it with your eyes open.
You are right about the cover up, you are just wrong about who is doing the covering up.

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Russian "Aid" convoy now moves into Ukraine, through unsecured border crossing, without permission from Ukraine or being properly inspected by Red Cross and without guarantees on distribution points or removal of vehicles.

What's the bet that within a couple of days the vehicles fall into the hands of separatists and we see movement of "aid" vehicles between Lugansk and Donetsk .. with incidents of them caught in cross-fire and pre-meditated outrage from the Russian media.

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There are reports of Spaniards making their way to fight with the Rebels and Russians, in a show of support due to Russia's support of the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War. Which doesn't surprise me sadly. I suspect in large part this fascination and support for Putin and Russia in today's climate has a lot to do with Russia's role in the Spanish Civil War. If you look at today's world, the economic collapses and rise of big multinationals who seem to operate with absolute impunity the romantic notion of defending the honest working class Ukrainian rebels against the forces of Western imperialist capitalist bankers seems plausible. In cloud cuckoo land that is.

Errr .. maybe because they are FORMER US Intelligence officers and no more privy to confidential information than you or I .. and they probably haven't been following what has been going on in Ukraine (through the various online sites where the hints as to what happened can actually be found).

What are you suggesting?
That a letter from a couple of retired Intelligence officers, a bit peeved that they haven't been privy to confidential information (that may have been passed on to an ongoing investigation), is some sort of proof that it WASN'T caused by Russian seperatists?

Personally I don't doubt that the USA and Russia play the propoganda game when it comes to information. I've stated in this thread already that I have never used USA media or Russian Media to reach any of my conclusions, but instead get my information from those "on the ground" in Ukraine. USA/UK/EU mainstream media was totally non-existent prior to MH17, and RT was total lies and Russian porpoganda as the state-owned channel tried to peddle whatever agenda Putin wanted it to.

I've said all this many times over though.

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Errr .. maybe because they are FORMER US Intelligence officers and no more privy to confidential information than you or I .. and they probably haven't been following what has been going on in Ukraine (through the various online sites where the hints as to what happened can actually be found).

What are you suggesting?
That a letter from a couple of retired Intelligence officers, a bit peeved that they haven't been privy to confidential information (that may have been passed on to an ongoing investigation), is some sort of proof that it WASN'T caused by Russian seperatists?

Personally I don't doubt that the USA and Russia play the propoganda game when it comes to information. I've stated in this thread already that I have never used USA media or Russian Media to reach any of my conclusions, but instead get my information from those "on the ground" in Ukraine. USA/UK/EU mainstream media was totally non-existent prior to MH17, and RT was total lies and Russian porpoganda as the state-owned channel tried to peddle whatever agenda Putin wanted it to.

I've said all this many times over though.

Did you read the link Stevie?

One of the former Intelligence officers is a certain Ray McGovern who was a Chief analyst on Russian afffairs that briefed Ronald Reagan. Look him up he stays in touch with current employees that serve the CIA. They question why no evidence have been put forward by Washington.

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Originally Posted by harpo

Did you read the link Stevie?

One of the former Intelligence officers is a certain Ray McGovern who was a Chief analyst on Russian afffairs that briefed Ronald Reagan. Look him up he stays in touch with current employees that serve the CIA. They question why no evidence have been put forward by Washington.

The silence is deafening.

I did read it. Still didn't shed any light on it as far as I'm concerned. All that he was saying was that they'd used propoganda in the past and that he hadn't heard anything about MH17.

Again, are you saying that a FORMER Intelligence Officer asking for information, that he is no more entitled to than you are I, is some form of confirmation that it couldn't have been Russian seperatists??? The guy is 75 years old for god sake. Probably sits at home like a lot of other 75 year olds looking to write letters of complaint to anyone and everyone!

If you are basing your conspiracy theory on that article, then I really don't think it carries much weight.

Can I ask though, why are you so desperate for it NOT to be Russian seperatists?

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I did read it. Still didn't shed any light on it as far as I'm concerned. All that he was saying was that they'd used propoganda in the past and that he hadn't heard anything about MH17.

Again, are you saying that a FORMER Intelligence Officer asking for information, that he is no more entitled to than you are I, is some form of confirmation that it couldn't have been Russian seperatists??? The guy is 75 years old for god sake. Probably sits at home like a lot of other 75 year olds looking to write letters of complaint to anyone and everyone!

If you are basing your conspiracy theory on that article, then I really don't think it carries much weight.

Can I ask though, why are you so desperate for it NOT to be Russian seperatists?

Not just one former intelligence officer, but 28 put their names in the open letter asking Obama to release satellite images to back Washingtons claim that Russia/separatists where behind the downing of the plane. So far we have been presented with nothing. Your conspiracy theory doesn't carry much weight as well as there is no evidence to back it up whereas at least Russia have released their satellite images.

Im not desperate for anything just the truth. I don't know what the truth is yet but you seem to dispite any evidence.

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Originally Posted by harpo

Your conspiracy theory doesn't carry much weight as well as there is no evidence to back it up

I don't have a conspiracy theory, I have simply reached the most likely answer based on months and months of following the situation and who has been found out to be lying during the conflict and who has been found out to be the closest to the truth.

You are basing your theory on one incident, I am basing my conclusion on events that have been happening for 8 months. Time and time again Russia has been found to be lying.

A convoy of Russian military vehicles was destroyed on Ukrainian territory last week. Documents were discovered that showed it was serving Russian soldiers. Russia has denied this of course, but has released a news story about there being an accidental explosion at an army base in Pskov that has taken the lives of some soldiers. It will be no surprise to some of us that photos were provided by Ukraine showing that the documents related to soldiers serving in the 76th armoured division from Pskov.

One of many incidents over the last year that throws the information provided by Russia into doubt.

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For those that have been calling the failure of the west, and particular the US to release their "information" or "proof" that forces supplied, armed, trained, and yes staff by Russians actually fired the missile, invaded the Ukraine proper it's time for intelligence 101. Because I'm going to lose my mind reading some of these posts if I don't post this.

Intelligence is only released in the public domain for the following (although not exclusive) reasons;

1. The source no longer matters. You don't care if you burn them, they are either no longer in play, or you are burning them to protect a deeper more valuable asset. The best example out there, and I'm sorry for all the Greewald and Assange fanboys is Russia burnt Snowden and Wikileaks to protect their asset within the NSA or NSC who was Snowden's handler and told him where and what information to grab.

2. The release of the information will produce such an outcry and uproar that nobody will think to ask "How did you get that?". This only works if your allies are going to back the play you are about to make. In this instance because Germany (among others) still suckles at the teat of Russian supplied oil and gas, this option isn't viable when it concerns Russia.

Now when the President of the United States says "Russia was behind it this act", or words to those effect that leave no doubt its because they have the proverbial smoking gun. In this case a smoking BUK system. The reason the US hasn't released any information is probably a combination of the following;

1. They have actual human assets on the ground. They could have SF personnel there observing and reporting, long before this incident. People forget long before the shooting started in Gulf War 1, Iraqi Freedom, or in Afghanistan US Navy Seals, and Marine Force Recon units were providing live intel feeds from Baghdad and Kabul and other strategic points. Its what they do, and they are very good at it. The Zero Dark Thirty stuff is just the icing on the cake and encompasses only a small part of their overall mission.

2. They have agents acting on their behalf on the ground. These could be Ukrainian citizens, who are doing the dirty work taking photographs, annotating troop numbers, units etc.

In either of these two instances unless you are willing to risk the loss of your asset, which in case number 1 constitutes a significant loss in terms of investment and future operations, in number 2 getting anyone else to do this work you don't release your intel.

3. You have technical assets they don't know about. That weather or tv satellite isn't really broadcasting East Enders to the good people of Dnipro, its taking photos of Russian troops on the border. Or you've hacked into their systems and are getting the same information they have, from them.

In this instance you aren't going to burn an asset that could be providing you long term real time information for the sake of a talking point unless that talking point is a big exclamation point that is going to have everyone screaming blue murder at the top of their lungs. Which in this case isn't going to happen.

Putin is getting away with this because;

1.Western Europe is once again falling into its historical traditional approach of non confrontational appeasement to bullies and he knows it. He got away with it in Georgia, and Crimea. Looking at Merkel's comments over the weekend, where she called on the Ukraine to negotiate a solution with Russia, as opposed to Russia get the feck out of Ukraine.

2. The environmental lobby and the push to 'clean and green' energy solutions hasn't worked as there are no long term viable solutions in place and Russian oil and gas are still needed and nobody is going to upset that apple cart as economies are just starting to show something close to a pulse.

3. He will frame the discussion in his terms. I would not be surprised if the boogeyman of 'Muslim extremists' pops up as an excuse as to why this has happened, and he will point out all the home grown Islamic radicals currently fighting in Iraq, Syria as examples. Europe's failure to confront this, among a host of other integration issues plays right into a narrative he can use.

4. The romantic notion that Russia, is merely standing up for the regular Russian speaking working class in eastern Ukraine while the big, bad,capitalist, multinational, imperialist $#@!s are actually behind all of this. Iraq, Afghanistan, trying to contain Iran, siding with Israel, are all proof of this.

It's no secret that Putin has been planning this for several years, they are still smarting over Sarajevo and the treatment of the Serbs by the West. And he's not going to stop until someone makes him.

I have been following this situation for years, and the msm had reported zilch on the Ukrainian situation until MH17 was brought down .. and had actually gone quiet again until current the Russian Aid convoy situation.
All the information I get is from other sources, including RT (btw it's just RT, not RT TODAY).

It would be impossible for me to believe your version of events regarding MH17 because there are so many contradictions and plain guess work.
Putting aside the c0ckpit theory you posted, you seem to be claiming that MH17 was shot down by Ukrainian military. You then go on to make an issue of there (supposedly) being 5 Ukrainian BUK in the area. The smart person would of course immediately ask what the relevence of the BUK in the area is if the plane was shot full of holes from a Ukrainian fighter jet? Is this just thrown in as back-up incase the fighter jet theory is disproved and you can follow up with an "ah, but .."?

There's a saying .. when you're in a hole, stop digging.

Just a follow up Stevie , Why has the report for the MH17 disaster been classified ??? Surely if you are correct and the big bad Russians did it. they would be splashing it all over the press and Obama would be creaming himself along with his illegal President in Kiev, i find it strange the opposite has happened only leaving one conclusion , i wont take any pride in knowing i was right all along because 228 people have lost their lives unnecessarily for the cause of the USA /UE advancement into land that has feck all to do with them .

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Originally Posted by timberfox

Just a follow up Stevie , Why has the report for the MH17 disaster been classified ??? Surely if you are correct and the big bad Russians did it. they would be splashing it all over the press and Obama would be creaming himself along with his illegal President in Kiev, i find it strange the opposite has happened only leaving one conclusion , i wont take any pride in knowing i was right all along because 228 people have lost their lives unnecessarily for the cause of the USA /UE advancement into land that has feck all to do with them .

"Obama would be creaming himself"?? This is a war, where people are dying on a daily basis! It's not a playground where one side runs around saying "I told you so"!

You find it strange that military intelligence are keeping their cards close to their chest in an ongoing military conflict? Really?

"knowing I was right"?? Right about what???
What exactly is it that you have said that is right?

Advancement of the USA?? You've lost the plot. If the USA were advancing into Ukraine, to the detriment of the Ukrainian people, I'd be the first one on here complaining about it!

I am heading to Ukraine next week. Do you want to join me and head down to Donetsk to see for yourself whether there is Russian military on Ukrainian soil firing missiles and attacking the Ukrainian people?

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"Obama would be creaming himself"?? This is a war, where people are dying on a daily basis! It's not a playground where one side runs around saying "I told you so"!

You find it strange that military intelligence are keeping their cards close to their chest in an ongoing military conflict? Really?

"knowing I was right"?? Right about what???
What exactly is it that you have said that is right?

Advancement of the USA?? You've lost the plot. If the USA were advancing into Ukraine, to the detriment of the Ukrainian people, I'd be the first one on here complaining about it!

I am heading to Ukraine next week. Do you want to join me and head down to Donetsk to see for yourself whether there is Russian military on Ukrainian soil firing missiles and attacking the Ukrainian people?

Your obviously not going to do anything but be anti Russian even although the proof is to the contrary , i see daily what Kiev and the Americans are doing to the people of Donetsk and the suffering that the people of eastern Ukraine are having to put up with at the hands of the American backed illegal president , but i forgot you support him , Its funny how all of a sudden its military and should be kept secret , so Russia was not behind it your saying ??? for if it was, you like Kiev would be shouting from the rooftops and probably declaring war with the help of the Yanks on Russia
, but Kiev cannot wait to put out more crap with ref. to tanks and soldiers , to be honest i wish Russia would send several million into Ukraine and end this American nonsense once and for all , of course you believe media and Americans , even the Aid convoy's were hiding arms and men , where did that lie get you

"Obama would be creaming himself"?? This is a war, where people are dying on a daily basis! It's not a playground where one side runs around saying "I told you so"!

You find it strange that military intelligence are keeping their cards close to their chest in an ongoing military conflict? Really?

"knowing I was right"?? Right about what???
What exactly is it that you have said that is right?

Advancement of the USA?? You've lost the plot. If the USA were advancing into Ukraine, to the detriment of the Ukrainian people, I'd be the first one on here complaining about it!

I am heading to Ukraine next week. Do you want to join me and head down to Donetsk to see for yourself whether there is Russian military on Ukrainian soil firing missiles and attacking the Ukrainian people?

As a side note , keep your head down and stay safe after all your as fellow Hibee

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Originally Posted by timberfox

Your obviously not going to do anything but be anti Russian

I'm starting to lose the will to live .. please pay attention to what I've been saying, or at the very least go back over my posts and try and take some of it in .. your attempts to "discuss" the situation in Ukraine, whilst being completely ignorant to many of the facts, is becoming tiresome.

The only time in my life that I have ever been anti-Russian is when they attacked a country I have a lot of time for, and one where I have some very strong friendships.

For the last 8 years I have given up time and energy trying to learn the Russian language (not easy at my age) and have made friends with quite a few native Russians in the process. It's also on my "bucket list" to visit Russia at some point, especially St Petersburg.

In fact far from being anti-Russian, for the last 8 years I have probably been more pro-Russian than you could ever aspire to!

Originally Posted by timberfox

even although the proof is to the contrary

The only "proof" of anything discussed so far is that Russia is carrying out a "covert" invasion of Ukraine and is supplying some serious weaponry to the Russian separatists (note I say "Russian" and not "Ukrainian").

Just this week there was a battalion of the 76th Armoured Division of Pskov captured by the Ukrainian army. Russia's explanation for this .. they "accidentally" drove a full armoured division 100km into Ukrainian territory .. "and can we have them back please"! Another incursion of tanks and APC's from Russian territory happened near the city Mariupol.

I could post links to all this, if it's proof you need, but I'd prefer if you googled it yourself so I couldn't be blamed for spreading "propaganda".

Originally Posted by timberfox

i see daily what Kiev and the Americans are doing to the people of Donetsk

I see what is happening on a daily basis as well. It is horrendous. Lets get one thing straight though, there's certainly no Americans doing anything to the people of Donetsk (well there was one American of Ukrainian descent, a retired soldier that was helping one of the volunteer battalions, but he was killed by separatists following an ambush).

I have friends with family in these areas, so it is a very emotive subject for me. If I thought for a second that it was some sort of USA incursion then I would be screaming blue murder at Obama and the Americans. The fact of the matter though, there isn't (at least not on the ground, but Ukraine would be mad not to be seeking advice on military matters as they battle against a country with a long history of invasions and atrocities).

The Ukrainian army is battling hard, trying to re-capture cities that have been taken over by Russian separatists, and losing lots of lives in the process. Yes there are also lots of civilian casualties, far too many, but given the type of war that Russia is waging against Ukraine it is almost impossible to fight these battles without civilian loss.

As I say, it's horrendous .. but when you have separatists attacking from, and basing themselves in, built up residential areas there seems little option open to them.

Originally Posted by timberfox

and the suffering that the people of eastern Ukraine are having to put up with at the hands of the American backed illegal president

Now you are just showing your complete ignorance of the situation and peddling the RT propaganda line.
In what way is the President "American backed"? And how is he an "illegal" President?

Originally Posted by timberfox

but i forgot you support him

Eh? In what way do I support "him"? Are you honestly trying to tell me what my personal views are on Ukraine and its political system, when you've neither met me nor discussed politics with me at any point??

I support the Ukrainian fight to try and rid the country of Russian separatists and to restore order.
I'd also like to see a lot of constitutional changes once order was restored, as I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the pro-European stuff that upset a lot of people over the last few years. I have lots of other personal views as well, but lets be honest I'd be wasting time and effort discussing them with you.

Originally Posted by timberfox

Its funny how all of a sudden its military and should be kept secret, so Russia was not behind it your saying ??? for if it was, you like Kiev would be shouting from the rooftops and probably declaring war with the help of the Yanks on Russia

"All of a sudden"?? Like sensitive military intelligence has always been freely available to all asunder up until the incident??

All the information that you need was out there in the weeks prior to the incident. I was reading up on it on a daily basis, and I'm intelligent enough to be able to piece together the most likely perpetrator. It's not about being pro-American, or anti-Russian, or brainwashed by RT, or being privy to sensitive information .. it's about gathering evidence from as many independent sources as possible and piecing together the most likely cause.

You think that this situation has a "winner" that should be "shouting from the rooftops"? This is an on-going war, that is resulting in the loss of human lives. There's nothing to shout about, and it needs to be stopped as soon as possible in order for order to be restored and for the rebuilding of Ukraine.

But as long as Russia is flooding Ukraine with military, heavy armour, and trained mercenaries then it's not likely to be stopped any time soon.

Originally Posted by timberfox

but Kiev cannot wait to put out more crap with ref. to tanks and soldiers

More crap??? Russian tanks and soldiers ARE in Ukraine. It's not "crap" put out by Kiev, it's fact!
Don't believe me though .. why not check out the Russia Today news website ..RUSSIAN SOLDIERS CAPTURED IN UKRAINE

Originally Posted by timberfox

of course you believe media and Americans

Eh? What Americans?? I've never mentioned Americans, and I certainly don't go looking to American media for what's happening in Ukraine. It might surprise you to know that I source my information from UKRAINIAN media .. oh, and RUSSIAN media. American media is usually two days behind what's actually happening on the ground, and about as accurate as the BBC!

Originally Posted by timberfox

even the Aid convoy's were hiding arms and men , where did that lie get you

Okay, lets discuss the Aid convoys then ..
280 military vehicles, painted white within 2 days (I can't even get my local garage to paint out a scratch on my car the same week!) and then set off from a military base in Russia. Told by both the ICRC and the Ukrainian government to head through a secure border crossing and to head to Kharkiv where all the other humanitarian aid is being processed. Instead it heads to a military base near Rostov and decides to head through a separatist held border crossing near the separatist held city of Luhansk. The ICRC are invited down to Rostov, and the border crossing, to inspect the vehicles. They are allowed to inspect a handful of these vehicles and report back that most of the ones inspected are more than half empty with small amounts of humanitarian aid. They are unable to inspect all the vehicles. After 2 days of negotiation, and both the ICRC and the Ukrainian government unhappy with the situation, Russia starts pushing the vehicles towards the border crossing. The ICRC only manage to inspect a fraction of the vehicles at the border crossing before Russia decides to basically force the whole convoy through the border and through separatist held roads straight into Luhansk without them being inspected.

I have not stated that there were weapons, ammunition and military equipment on board as, lets face it, no-one has a clue what was actually on board. I can only speculate, and I am speculating based on the FACTS presented by independent sources.

Let me also add that ICRC and OSCE monitors, at the border crossing, reported tanks and APC's heading from Russia through the border crossing towards Luhansk. That's not reports from Kiev, or by American media, but by independent sources that are there simply to monitor the situation and to report the facts.

Originally Posted by timberfox

to be honest i wish Russia would send several million into Ukraine and end this American nonsense once and for all

I think that sums up your contribution to this in one sentence.

You want to see an full scale military conflict between Russia and the USA in a country already ravaged by death and destruction.

I'm afraid I can no longer afford you the time of day.

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Your obviously not going to do anything but be anti Russian even although the proof is to the contrary , i see daily what Kiev and the Americans are doing to the people of Donetsk and the suffering that the people of eastern Ukraine are having to put up with at the hands of the American backed illegal president , but i forgot you support him , Its funny how all of a sudden its military and should be kept secret , so Russia was not behind it your saying ??? for if it was, you like Kiev would be shouting from the rooftops and probably declaring war with the help of the Yanks on Russia
, but Kiev cannot wait to put out more crap with ref. to tanks and soldiers , to be honest i wish Russia would send several million into Ukraine and end this American nonsense once and for all , of course you believe media and Americans , even the Aid convoy's were hiding arms and men , where did that lie get you

- - - Updated - - -

As a side note , keep your head down and stay safe after all your as fellow Hibee

How can you be sure the Russian evidence is genuine and not tampered with?

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As of yesterday the covert Russian interference in Ukraine is no longer covert .. it is now an invasion.

Looks like timberfox has got his wish, with Russian forces now attacking Ukrainian towns and no longer hiding it.

The frustration of not being able to properly support the annexed Ukrainian peninsular of Crimea seems to have taken its toll, and Russia has decided to occupy the south east of Ukraine in order to have direct access through Ukrainian soil.

Croatia has been first to act in support of Ukraine and has supplied the Ukrainian military with 14 helicopters.

I doubt that many of the western governments will be so swift, they'll want to organise meetings, discussions and sanction a couple of businesses before they'll even think about any military assistance.

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As of yesterday the covert Russian interference in Ukraine is no longer covert .. it is now an invasion.

Looks like timberfox has got his wish, with Russian forces now attacking Ukrainian towns and no longer hiding it.

The frustration of not being able to properly support the annexed Ukrainian peninsular of Crimea seems to have taken its toll, and Russia has decided to occupy the south east of Ukraine in order to have direct access through Ukrainian soil.

Croatia has been first to act in support of Ukraine and has supplied the Ukrainian military with 14 helicopters.

I doubt that many of the western governments will be so swift, they'll want to organise meetings, discussions and sanction a couple of businesses before they'll even think about any military assistance.

Again believing everything they hear on media , pumped out by usa/eu/kiev Lies

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by StevieC

You're wasting your time Jack.

The very fact you have to ask that question , instead of getting the answers yourself tells its own story , but then again you have a Kiev supporter to believe.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by StevieC

I'm starting to lose the will to live .. please pay attention to what I've been saying, or at the very least go back over my posts and try and take some of it in .. your attempts to "discuss" the situation in Ukraine, whilst being completely ignorant to many of the facts, is becoming tiresome.

The only time in my life that I have ever been anti-Russian is when they attacked a country I have a lot of time for, and one where I have some very strong friendships.

For the last 8 years I have given up time and energy trying to learn the Russian language (not easy at my age) and have made friends with quite a few native Russians in the process. It's also on my "bucket list" to visit Russia at some point, especially St Petersburg.

In fact far from being anti-Russian, for the last 8 years I have probably been more pro-Russian than you could ever aspire to!

The only "proof" of anything discussed so far is that Russia is carrying out a "covert" invasion of Ukraine and is supplying some serious weaponry to the Russian separatists (note I say "Russian" and not "Ukrainian").

Just this week there was a battalion of the 76th Armoured Division of Pskov captured by the Ukrainian army. Russia's explanation for this .. they "accidentally" drove a full armoured division 100km into Ukrainian territory .. "and can we have them back please"! Another incursion of tanks and APC's from Russian territory happened near the city Mariupol.

I could post links to all this, if it's proof you need, but I'd prefer if you googled it yourself so I couldn't be blamed for spreading "propaganda".

I see what is happening on a daily basis as well. It is horrendous. Lets get one thing straight though, there's certainly no Americans doing anything to the people of Donetsk (well there was one American of Ukrainian descent, a retired soldier that was helping one of the volunteer battalions, but he was killed by separatists following an ambush).

I have friends with family in these areas, so it is a very emotive subject for me. If I thought for a second that it was some sort of USA incursion then I would be screaming blue murder at Obama and the Americans. The fact of the matter though, there isn't (at least not on the ground, but Ukraine would be mad not to be seeking advice on military matters as they battle against a country with a long history of invasions and atrocities).

The Ukrainian army is battling hard, trying to re-capture cities that have been taken over by Russian separatists, and losing lots of lives in the process. Yes there are also lots of civilian casualties, far too many, but given the type of war that Russia is waging against Ukraine it is almost impossible to fight these battles without civilian loss.

As I say, it's horrendous .. but when you have separatists attacking from, and basing themselves in, built up residential areas there seems little option open to them.

Now you are just showing your complete ignorance of the situation and peddling the RT propaganda line.
In what way is the President "American backed"? And how is he an "illegal" President?

Eh? In what way do I support "him"? Are you honestly trying to tell me what my personal views are on Ukraine and its political system, when you've neither met me nor discussed politics with me at any point??

I support the Ukrainian fight to try and rid the country of Russian separatists and to restore order.
I'd also like to see a lot of constitutional changes once order was restored, as I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the pro-European stuff that upset a lot of people over the last few years. I have lots of other personal views as well, but lets be honest I'd be wasting time and effort discussing them with you.

"All of a sudden"?? Like sensitive military intelligence has always been freely available to all asunder up until the incident??

All the information that you need was out there in the weeks prior to the incident. I was reading up on it on a daily basis, and I'm intelligent enough to be able to piece together the most likely perpetrator. It's not about being pro-American, or anti-Russian, or brainwashed by RT, or being privy to sensitive information .. it's about gathering evidence from as many independent sources as possible and piecing together the most likely cause.

You think that this situation has a "winner" that should be "shouting from the rooftops"? This is an on-going war, that is resulting in the loss of human lives. There's nothing to shout about, and it needs to be stopped as soon as possible in order for order to be restored and for the rebuilding of Ukraine.

But as long as Russia is flooding Ukraine with military, heavy armour, and trained mercenaries then it's not likely to be stopped any time soon.

More crap??? Russian tanks and soldiers ARE in Ukraine. It's not "crap" put out by Kiev, it's fact!
Don't believe me though .. why not check out the Russia Today news website ..RUSSIAN SOLDIERS CAPTURED IN UKRAINE

Eh? What Americans?? I've never mentioned Americans, and I certainly don't go looking to American media for what's happening in Ukraine. It might surprise you to know that I source my information from UKRAINIAN media .. oh, and RUSSIAN media. American media is usually two days behind what's actually happening on the ground, and about as accurate as the BBC!

Okay, lets discuss the Aid convoys then ..
280 military vehicles, painted white within 2 days (I can't even get my local garage to paint out a scratch on my car the same week!) and then set off from a military base in Russia. Told by both the ICRC and the Ukrainian government to head through a secure border crossing and to head to Kharkiv where all the other humanitarian aid is being processed. Instead it heads to a military base near Rostov and decides to head through a separatist held border crossing near the separatist held city of Luhansk. The ICRC are invited down to Rostov, and the border crossing, to inspect the vehicles. They are allowed to inspect a handful of these vehicles and report back that most of the ones inspected are more than half empty with small amounts of humanitarian aid. They are unable to inspect all the vehicles. After 2 days of negotiation, and both the ICRC and the Ukrainian government unhappy with the situation, Russia starts pushing the vehicles towards the border crossing. The ICRC only manage to inspect a fraction of the vehicles at the border crossing before Russia decides to basically force the whole convoy through the border and through separatist held roads straight into Luhansk without them being inspected.

I have not stated that there were weapons, ammunition and military equipment on board as, lets face it, no-one has a clue what was actually on board. I can only speculate, and I am speculating based on the FACTS presented by independent sources.

Let me also add that ICRC and OSCE monitors, at the border crossing, reported tanks and APC's heading from Russia through the border crossing towards Luhansk. That's not reports from Kiev, or by American media, but by independent sources that are there simply to monitor the situation and to report the facts.

I think that sums up your contribution to this in one sentence.

You want to see an full scale military conflict between Russia and the USA in a country already ravaged by death and destruction.

I'm afraid I can no longer afford you the time of day.

Kiev is already doing enough damage to its own people , without so much as a word of condemnation from its main supporter , the USA , ordinary people know why , to get rid of the unelected warmongers /USA puppets out of Kiev i Would like to see Russia do that , its the only chance of peace in the country , even Kiev's armed forces are talking of rebellion driving to Kiev and removing them that's how bad it is there.

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Originally Posted by timberfox

Again believing everything they hear on media , pumped out by usa/eu/kiev Lies

So every other media and Internet outlet, from around the world, that is providing photos, video footage and independent confirmations from people actually in the area is telling lies .. but the (State owned) Russian media, which is not saying anything, is the one to watch?

I'm really trying to understand your logical thinking on this why is someone based in Scotland bordering on racism when it comes to USA/EU/Ukraine? What is your background that you are unable to view this objectively and not just take a pro-Russian propoganda stance? Is there some sort of socialist/marxist/communist background, upbringing or agenda here?

The offer is still there to join me in Ukraine. Make your way to Mariupol .. you'll be perfectly safe because nothing is happening there, it's all made up.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by timberfox

Kiev is already doing enough damage to its own people , without so much as a word of condemnation from its main supporter , the USA , ordinary people know why , to get rid of the unelected warmongers /USA puppets out of Kiev i Would like to see Russia do that , its the only chance of peace in the country

Now you are just showing your complete ignorance and complete lack of understanding of the situation.

The current President was legally elected .. you probably missed the elections because they happened prior to MH17, and you wouldn't have known what was going on then as it's only since MH17 that you've decided to start spouting your anti-American agenda. In fact the election was one of the most one sided since Independence in 1991 so it's not as if the outcome could even have been doubted.

So your answer to the myth of an illegal government .. is for another country to invade and become an illegal unelected government?? And the way to bring peace is for a full scale land war?? That's bordering on plain stupidity.

Originally Posted by timberfox

even Kiev's armed forces are talking of rebellion driving to Kiev and removing them that's how bad it is there.

And which "reliable" media source did this little gem come from? Looking forward to seeing the link.

My biggest concern is transportation issues, as I'll be travelling from one side of the country to the other on at least two occassions. I'll feel much safer once I arrive though, even in Dnipropetrovsk (which is fairly close to the trouble), as my Russian speaking friends will keep me safe.

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So every other media and Internet outlet, from around the world, that is providing photos, video footage and independent confirmations from people actually in the area is telling lies .. but the (State owned) Russian media, which is not saying anything, is the one to watch?

I'm really trying to understand your logical thinking on this why is someone based in Scotland bordering on racism when it comes to USA/EU/Ukraine? What is your background that you are unable to view this objectively and not just take a pro-Russian propoganda stance? Is there some sort of socialist/marxist/communist background, upbringing or agenda here?

The offer is still there to join me in Ukraine. Make your way to Mariupol .. you'll be perfectly safe because nothing is happening there, it's all made up.

- - - Updated - - -

Now you are just showing your complete ignorance and complete lack of understanding of the situation.

The current President was legally elected .. you probably missed the elections because they happened prior to MH17, and you wouldn't have known what was going on then as it's only since MH17 that you've decided to start spouting your anti-American agenda. In fact the election was one of the most one sided since Independence in 1991 so it's not as if the outcome could even have been doubted.

So your answer to the myth of an illegal government .. is for another country to invade and become an illegal unelected government?? And the way to bring peace is for a full scale land war?? That's bordering on plain stupidity.

And which "reliable" media source did this little gem come from? Looking forward to seeing the link.

My biggest concern is transportation issues, as I'll be travelling from one side of the country to the other on at least two occassions. I'll feel much safer once I arrive though, even in Dnipropetrovsk (which is fairly close to the trouble), as my Russian speaking friends will keep me safe.

Stevie , I will be the first to apologize if you are right and that Russian tanks have entered Ukraine, but the media reports are coming from the same sources that covered up the attack of the Public convoy on its way to safety , and covered up the fact that SU-25's took down MH17 , hence the sudden hush up , feck all to do with military , but again i say if you are right and i am wrong i will send you via this post an apology , there is no underlying matters which make me post , just my mistrust of the EU/USA /NATO incursion towards the East , for their own financial gains.
I have most every time i have posted said that the thoughts i posted were mine and mine alone and if someone supplies me with a different and correct version i will accept that , as of yet on this subject i have not been given any , other than your views , which your entitled to , but there is no need to look for things that are not there, and attempting to belittle what should be a friendly forum discussion .

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Originally Posted by timberfox

Stevie , I will be the first to apologize if you are right and that Russian tanks have entered Ukraine, but the media reports are coming from the same sources that covered up the attack of the Public convoy on its way to safety , and covered up the fact that SU-25's took down MH17 , hence the sudden hush up , feck all to do with military , but again i say if you are right and i am wrong i will send you via this post an apology , there is no underlying matters which make me post , just my mistrust of the EU/USA /NATO incursion towards the East , for their own financial gains.
I have most every time i have posted said that the thoughts i posted were mine and mine alone and if someone supplies me with a different and correct version i will accept that , as of yet on this subject i have not been given any , other than your views , which your entitled to , but there is no need to look for things that are not there, and attempting to belittle what should be a friendly forum discussion .

The problem is that EVERY source I link to, you will dismiss as US/EU/Kiev lies. I'm at a loss as to how I could ever show you what is really going on unless Russia decides to come clean and telling the truth. Which, lets face it, they're not going to do while they are conducting military operations in Ukriane.

If you are genuinely open to find out the truth of whats going on, then I'll direct you towards some sources.

Firstly have a look at the Vice News updates, which started in March when Russia invaded Crimea (even though Russia denied it and the west ignored it). If you start at update 1 and follow what happened in Crimea it would show you just how much Russia lied about what was going on, and how Russia used propoganda to reach their desired outcome.Vice News Russian Roulette
What happened in Crimea is what is happening in eastern Ukraine, the only difference is this time Ukraine is putting up a fight .. and the result is innocent people getting killed. That doesn't mean that it's Ukraine/Kiev's fault though, it just means that the Ukrainians are not going to let the dictator of another country come in and take over their land.

I have to admit that towards the end of the 71 updates, Simon (who was totally independent at the start of the updates) is starting to sound more and more pro-Ukrainian .. although after months of Russian propoganda (and a spell of being tortured by separatists in a basement) its hardly surprising.

On twitter you have journalists Roland Oliphant, Paul Gypteau (French journalist), Simon Shuster and Henry Langston who are all "on the ground" in Ukraine and trying to report objectively.

kyivpost.com is a site that updates on what is happening in Ukraine in general (business, politics, lifestyle, etc.) as well as linking to lots of other media outlets that are covering what is going on. As I've said many times, prior to MH17 none of the main media outlets that we'd be likely to follow (BBC,CNN, etc.) were even reporting what was going on so you had to depend on other sites to get an idea of what was really happening. On Kyivpost there is also a retired former member of the Defence Ministry (Dmitry Tymchuk) that has been trying to update the military actions on a daily basis, from his military sources that are involved in the conflict. There is obviously a very pro-Ukrainian slant to his blogs, but there is a lot of very good information in there as well.

There are obviously some Ukrainian sites, such as inforesist.org, that are very biased towards the Ukrainian side of things but when read in conjuction with RT it allows you to have an educated guess at what is really going on.

And of course if you do a youtube search for " луганск " or " донецк " and filter it down to uploads for that day then you'll get lots of video footage from the general public showing what is going on .. such as Russian tanks rolling past their front doors!

I've lots of other sites I check regularly, but that should be enough to keep you going for now.

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Originally Posted by timberfox

if someone supplies me with a different and correct version i will accept that , as of yet on this subject i have not been given any , other than your views

Although I did provide you with a link .. from RT no less (so you've no reason to doubt it) .. that Russian troops from the armoured division of Pskov had entered Ukrainian territory and were captured, by Ukrainian troops, fighting alongside separatists. You seemed to have completely ignored it though?

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I have seldom seen more patience and forebearance than you've shown on this thread Stevie. Take care in Ukraine, you're a braver soul than I. Maybe you need to get a selfie with some spetsnaz for the bold timberfox to come out of his x files.

Knowing Stevie and having been to the Ukraine a few times myself, I have absolutely no doubt what Stevie says is true. I am astounded at Timberfoxes position to be honest.

Keep safe and love to all the guys over there, let them know the vast majority of us are with them 100%.

Because of articles like this , that's why,

No Russian troops in Ukraine': Moscow's OSCE rep responds to Kiev's claims
The OSCE was told there was no Russian presence spotted across the Ukraine border, refuting Thursday's claims that a full-scale invasion was underway. Both the Ukrainian monitoring team head and Russia's representative have given a firm 'no.

we have all seen how easy it is to you tube , again I'm only going by info from OSCE, I too am with the eastern Ukrainians fighting the illegitimate regime put there by the USA .

T, I am amazed by your determination to find the path of most resistance here. It really does almost seem ideological - but I think the only mistake Stevie has made is assuming such things are these days grounded in Marxism

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Originally Posted by timberfox

I too am with the eastern Ukrainians fighting the illegitimate regime put there by the USA .

Again with the illegitimate regime "put there by the USA" .. the government was put there by the vast majority of the Ukrainian people in a free and fair election. The only places where they were not able to vote were in cities like Sloviansk, Lugansk and Kramatorsk where the Russian separatists shut down the polling stations at gun point and wouldn't allow the people there to vote. As I've stated before though, the vote was that much of a landslide even if every person in these cities had voted against the president he would still have won by a country mile.

Kramatorsk, along with Sloviansk, were seen as rebel strongholds during the last few months. Earlier this month the Ukrainian army managed to regain control of both cities, amid fierce battles and loss of many civilian lives. It's hard to imagine how hard it must have been for this pro-Russian city to have come under attack from the fascist Kiev government ...

No Russian troops in Ukraine': Moscow's OSCE rep responds to Kiev's claims
The OSCE was told there was no Russian presence spotted across the Ukraine border, refuting Thursday's claims that a full-scale invasion was underway. Both the Ukrainian monitoring team head and Russia's representative have given a firm 'no.

we have all seen how easy it is to you tube , again I'm only going by info from OSCE, I too am with the eastern Ukrainians fighting the illegitimate regime put there by the USA .

That's not 'info from the osce' that's 'info from moscows rep to the osce'

If you had you would find an amazing amount of information and events happening almost in real time. You'd be much better informed about the Ukrainian situation as well, instead of basing your argument on the propoganda that comes straight from Putin's lackies.

Have you even bothered to view the Vice News Russian Roulette link I put up earlier on?

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Originally Posted by egb_hibs

I have seldom seen more patience and forebearance than you've shown on this thread Stevie.

I could go Alistair Darling on him, and be all angry and shouty-pointy .. but to be honest I've bigger concerns to deal with over the next 4 weeks, so I'm saving my energy and keeping my wits about me for my trip.
I'm looking forward to the promised apology though.

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Originally Posted by emerald green

Dinnae know StevieC part from giving through the Dnipro over the years.

Looks like he has got everything spot on on this thread.

Thanks to him for some very informative reading!

Also a good lesson in patience!

Very best wishes @ StevieC when you journey. Be safe radgebouncer

Thanks EG, I appreciate that .. I'll try and stay as safe as I can.
If I hear of any tanks rolling towards Dnipropetrovsk though, I'm out of there regardless of how many times Putin tells me there's none there

Can't take too much credit for the info though, it's all passed on by friends and contacts in Ukraine, and some journalists that are putting themselves into some pretty dangerous areas to get the information out.

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I have no allegiance to Putin or Russia thank you very much , what i do have is a distinct hatred of the way that people have been hood winked into believing everything led by the USA White-house , even the veterans society in the USA is now attacking their politicians and can see this trouble for what it really is , The USA'S attempt to balance their books by getting WW3 started , and you can say what the hell you like and be as patient as you like i don't care , I know what i see , i will post again when it is either resolved by the Eu telling US and NATO to feck off , or That Muslim in the white house pushes the button .

I have no allegiance to Putin or Russia thank you very much , what i do have is a distinct hatred of the way that people have been hood winked into believing everything led by the USA White-house , even the veterans society in the USA is now attacking their politicians and can see this trouble for what it really is , The USA'S attempt to balance their books by getting WW3 started , and you can say what the hell you like and be as patient as you like i don't care , I know what i see , i will post again when it is either resolved by the Eu telling US and NATO to feck off , or That Muslim in the white house pushes the button .

I have read this thread and thought to myself "nothing will get through to this guy". Stevie has given more than decent facts. Then you post stuff like above "I don't care" " I know what I see" and my particular favourite " that muslim in the White House". CUCKOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

" It isn't the mountains ahead to climb that wear you out: it is the pebble in your shoe" Muhammad Ali