Not the 30 plus games thing again, I suspect you mean games against Australia as we've got a good record against other nations.

Sinfield ahs only played as captain once against Australia and in that game we have been the closest to beating them since 2006 and we didn't capitulate in the final twenty as we previously have. And the loss was nothing to do with the halves, our completion, penalty and error count was simply shocking, the fact we kept them within 8 points is a testament to how good a side England are

TBH it's all getting a bit tedious now (I'm sure my posts are too) it's clear that certain posters will never ever give a Sinfield any credit.

Sinfield played his role well on Saturday and IMO was the second best half on the pitch. His place kicking was very poor. Though.

Are we really going to have this same debate over and over again after every game?

Agreed on the tedious bit ( both of us) But no, I do mean in all of his rep games, whether captain or not Chris.

Unless you haven't noticed I am and have been stating that KS, on Saturday, played to the best of his ability, I concede that completely.

However where I do contest with your opinion is that he again played his part, he had no more influence than did others , yet admittedly, performed better than some.

That however does not contribute to the manner in which commentators and others like yourself are seemingly convinced that the has to team revolve around his every action, pass, or whatever else his overriding presence commands.

Sinfield played as well as he is able on Saturday and much in line with how at this level, one or two notable occasions apart, he has done throughout his international career.

Nothing sparkling and mostly insignificant overall!

That is why I object to the superstar accolades he continually receives.

Peacock, Sculthorpe, Farrell, all inspired by their own performances the others around them, albeit with limited success, especially V the Aussies.

But nontheless that they themselves where aspirational players and captains cannot be denied.

Kevin Sinfield in my eyes ( not only though?) does not possess such a quality at this level of R/L.

Contrary to what Omega et all post, I don't think England every move etc should revolve around Sinfield, I think he is a good leader and organiser and I think the right man for the job in this WC, time will tell.

What I do get sick of and probably why u post so much on this subject is post which flat out say he's rubbish, not good enough etc and discount the internationals he has played well in (2 x MOM performances against NZ in recent years).

People seem to be forgetting that ATETOD Australia are unfortunately a far better side than England, however we are capable if beating them in a one off and I thnk this team can do it this year.

As for Sculthorpe and the rest you mention being better leaders, neither you or I can say that's true or false, you'd have to get the players perspective on that one!

Sinfields had 30+ international chances and has slightly stood out in about 3 or 4 that's not good enough.

I've never said he was rubbish, those are your words, Ive stated numerous times how much I admire him for Leeds where he's been a great but he's almost never taken that form into International games.

Our attacking game is blunted by his lack of pace and quickness, his inclusion removes the possibility of our halfbacks presenting a threat to the opposition line meaning they can virtually ignore him and focus on his runners.

He's not a specialist hooker even though his best international performance came in that position and there's no way should he be selected at 9 ahead of Roby or McIllorum.

The top Rugby League teams whether domestic, SoO or international no longer pick a ball handling loose forward because it means one less running forward being available and puts greater pressure on the other forwards to make up the workload.

There are other leaders already in the team so that argument is a red herring as is his overrated field kicking ability. The thing he's exceptional at is goal kicking but against the best even that seems to be affected as his success ratio vs Australia is way below what he normaly averages.

The truth is he's being shoehorned into the team by a coach who pinned his faith on him 18 months ago and has since ignored Sinfields poor form during this past season. This despite continually stating that players would be "picked on form" which later became "long term form" in order to explain Sinfields continued presence despite being out of form for 12 months.

Petero is correct when he says that on International form Sinfield as a Captain cannot be compared to Sculthorpe, Farrell, Peacock, Hanley, Reilly, Turner etc. They were inspirational players who rose above adversity and brought out performances which raised the ability of their team mates. I have never seen a flicker of that from Kevin Sinfield as an international Captain.

You've never seen a flicker of that? I would say coming closest we've been for 7 years and not capitulating in the last 20minutes may have had something to do with how the team was led.
He's played one game as captain against Australia.
And as I've said nobody on here can say he is or isn't a better captain than those mentioned , only the players and coaches around him can.

For a start, why would Widdop have to as you put it- Really have to shine!- when may I ask has the Sinfield Chase combo done that?

Yet again, would you believe that either KS or RC would be capable of gaining and holding a S/O or S/H position in any NRL team, never mind if elegible at all, of gaining SOO or even rep honours down there, not a chance of either, on either score occuring.

Diatribe?

Well, I would say that just because widdop has performed well in the NRL is no guarantee that he would perform well in an Eng-Aus test outside the Melbourne team. Same, even if he performs well against fiji or Ireland. I think S Mac will look at the first match and think he got the team selection ok... you can't say he got it wrong because the team did perform and you don't know how a different team would have performed... it was the error rate and penalty count that got us in the end. I'm not saying the team would not be better with Widdop but he would have to make a pretty strong case for inclusion... I would have thought this was obvious and not... diatribe...

With all this talk about Sinfield's leadership qualities and how we have to have him in the team for this reason, what happens if he gets injured? Who is our Vice Captain and will he have any leadership qualities and if so could he not be Captain?

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

With all this talk about Sinfield's leadership qualities and how we have to have him in the team for this reason, what happens if he gets injured? Who is our Vice Captain and will he have any leadership qualities and if so could he not be Captain?

According to some on here, no one!! can lead a team round like Sinfield. We would be doomed if he got injured and we actually had to play Gareth Widdop at stand off!!!

I suspect O'Loughlin might have been the coach's first choice replacement captain if Sinfield was unavailable, but it seems Sean's still not 100%.

I wonder if he'll be given a go in the next match or whether McNamara will hold off from using him as long as possible until he's more confident in his fitness.

It will be interetsing to find out... Personally, I'd rather see KS at 13 next match with Surgess back in the second row and Chase and Widdop the halves then swap Sinfield for O'Louglin at half time. Mossop and Ablett not to play and Graham back. Would give Widdop his chance and see how O'Loughlin goes.

Well, I would say that just because widdop has performed well in the NRL is no guarantee that he would perform well in an Eng-Aus test outside the Melbourne team. Same, even if he performs well against fiji or Ireland. I think S Mac will look at the first match and think he got the team selection ok... you can't say he got it wrong because the team did perform and you don't know how a different team would have performed... it was the error rate and penalty count that got us in the end. I'm not saying the team would not be better with Widdop but he would have to make a pretty strong case for inclusion... I would have thought this was obvious and not... diatribe...

So without any evidence you did not denounce Widdops ability to perform well at S/O? Or state that he would need a superhuman effort to prove he could be as good as Chase, with words to that effect, diatribe will suffice.

I would veer to the point that, having performed so well in a league far superior, the NRL, to the S/L, over three seasons, would bear more merit and convey a better class of achievement upon any player.

I ask you yet again 'D.....man' do you consider that either Sinfield or Chase could have done at Melbourne what a much younger and less experienced Gareth Widdop has done at that club?

And whyever you infer that the lad is there simply because Cronk and Smith do everything for him and he just rests upon their laurels, is more than merely a case of ignoring the facts.

Widdop was sorely missed, when injured by Melbourne, that is the reason he was put into the side probably before he ought to have been and was not at all ready to have done so, he is/was an important cog in that team and well worth his salt on his own achievements, not only on the backs of others, as you seem to imply.

Another question you have conveniently avoided answering as well, Why would Widdop have to "really deliver", in order to impress?

As I also asked and you have deemed not to answer too; when has the Sinfield/Chase combination done that either and, V whom, to date?

1. So without any evidence you did not denounce Widdops ability to perform well at S/O? Or state that he would need a superhuman effort to prove he could be as good as Chase, with words to that effect, diatribe will suffice.

2a. I ask you yet again 'D.....man' do you consider that either Sinfield or Chase could have done at Melbourne what a much younger and less experienced Gareth Widdop has done at that club?

2b. And whyever you infer that the lad is there simply because Cronk and Smith do everything for him and he just rests upon their laurels, is more than merely a case of ignoring the facts.

3. Another question you have conveniently avoided answering as well, Why would Widdop have to "really deliver", in order to impress?

4. As I also asked and you have deemed not to answer too; when has the Sinfield/Chase combination done that either and, V whom, to date?

As for points 1+2a/b - I'm not saying Widdop hasn't done well in the NRL nor have I stated that Sinfield or Chase could have done any better.

As for point 3 - look at it another way, if Widdop has an average game against IRELAND or FIJI, S Macnamara won't be picking him to start against NZ or Aus, regardless of his NRL achievements. That's my point. You seem to be saying that even if Widdop has an average game against these teams he should be included anyway because he plays in the NRL. I would disagree!