Domestic unrest in China

You need to step back, the general trend for reform is actually going pretty well. To me it looks like the stock market. If you look at the one day change, it will look terrible, it is up it is down, etc. However looking at the 5 year trend, you can pick up a positive trend.

Freedom House provides a simple numerical model measuring civil and political rights, standardized across all countries in the world. The PRC has been consistently ranked 6/7 and 7/7 on since 2002 civil and political rights respectively. That's almost as "Not Free" in Freedom House's parlance as you can get.

Stability is key. When China is stable, then she can feed her people, clothe her people, shelter her people, and then let they do as they please. China can't afford another revolution. The ultimate goal is to create a "true" democracy, but it has to be one step at a time.

You need to step back, the general trend for reform is actually going pretty well. To me it looks like the stock market. If you look at the one day change, it will look terrible, it is up it is down, etc. However looking at the 5 year trend, you can pick up a positive trend.

Freedom House provides a simple numerical model measuring civil and political rights, standardized across all countries in the world. The PRC has been consistently ranked 6/7 and 7/7 on since 2002 civil and political rights respectively. That's almost as "Not Free" in Freedom House's parlance as you can get.

When I said 5 years, I didn't mean using that for China, it was for the stocks. The whole point is, comparing each decade there is definitely changes. I mean from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s. You can definitely see a change.

Stability is key. When China is stable, then she can feed her people, clothe her people, shelter her people, and then let they do as they please. China can't afford another revolution. The ultimate goal is to create a "true" democracy, but it has to be one step at a time.

Well there is no such a thing is a true democracy. I really don't have to explain it, I mean there is no such a thing as a perfect socialist, democratic, etc country. It just can't happen. As the human population grow, the chance of equal say for all is becoming impossible. Hell, we don't even have a say in congress in 2012, do you expect people to have a say in 2200?

Sun Yat Sen can suck it. I hope he is rolling his grave, that just means is even more miserable. The idea that the first Chinese president is a foreigner is disgusting. Not to mention he didn't really do much for the revolution, he did as in the Chinese saying, Came down the mountain to pick the peaches.

You should get your brain checked. He was core catalyst for the 1911 revolution. He was basically the Founding Fathers all rolled into one. If it wasn't for his efforts, you'd still be stuck back home wearing your horse-tails. Things would've turned out so much better if it wasn't for those "Dongbei" redneck warlords messing up the process.

Just because you read some middle school text, it doesn't make you an expert. Read more into it, read some actual books about Xinhai revolution, then come back and tell it to me. Trust me, it is not as they say it is. One example of the type of bullshit that goes on is Nanniwan. It is now known as the place where the communist turned this dry and terrible place into a fertile farmland area. The thing is it was actually used mostly for poppy and opium production. Ironic isn't it? That the CCP who is so strict with drugs, was financed by Opium.

Forged? That is fine, but he is legally an American. It really doesn't matter if it is fake, since if the American government accept it, then it is real. Just like a fake dollar becomes a real dollar if no one can tell if it is fake. Either way he is not a saint. It is pure luck that this guy became so famous.

Do you even read what you post? You consider Sun Yat-Sen "not Chinese" because he has a US passport.... What color is your passport again?

damingli85 wrote:

Stability is key. When China is stable, then she can feed her people, clothe her people, shelter her people, and then let they do as they please. China can't afford another revolution. The ultimate goal is to create a "true" democracy, but it has to be one step at a time.

Except CCP is doing terrible job at it. They're basically mortgaging their house (environment) to pay for their buffet bill(unsustainable growth). This "Stability trumps all" BS card has been played for FAR TOO LONG. What you're arguing for is basically this:

Which is just a really sorry excuse that's been going on since the first emperor. You know what they say about insanity, "You're truly insane when you keep doing the same thing expecting different results".

Instead of asking me, try to directly involve Sun with the Wuchang Uprising. Please the love of god, connect Sun with the uprising of the Xin Hubei Army. If it wasn't for the success of the Wuchang uprising, then the other provinces would have known their place and sat their like chumps. Sun didn't even know that the Xin Hubei Army actually revolted until days later, then he hopped on a boat and tried to take over control.

Out of curiosity, are you folks from a Mandarin or Cantonese family background?

As far as I can tell, both side of my parents are native Cantonese. My dad's Hakka, so we could considered non-Punti if you go back far enough. It's entirely anecdotal, but I find that Cantonese people are far more moderate in their views (in regards to nationalism). Maybe it's their earlier exposure to Western culture and ability to think critically. Who knows.

What I don't understand is damingli's obsession that anything he considered "West" is inherently bad. Perspectives like that was basically the downfall of Qing government, when the conservative authorities basically failed to modernize their country.

Too much generalization razor. I love the xbox, I love cars, I love burgers. Lets not go overboard and call me a lao wai hater now. I have only dated White girls too so, trust me I am not some kind of anti-western racist...just a normal hate everything racist...jk.

Instead of asking me, try to directly involve Sun with the Wuchang Uprising. Please the love of god, connect Sun with the uprising of the Xin Hubei Army. If it wasn't for the success of the Wuchang uprising, then the other provinces would have known their place and sat their like chumps. Sun didn't even know that the Xin Hubei Army actually revolted until days later, then he hopped on a boat and tried to take over control.

You're really grasping for the straws aren't you? From wiki verbatim:

(Wuhan Uprising)The uprising itself broke out by accident. At the time there were two local revolutionary groups ready in Wuhan, the Literary society (文學社) and the Progressive Association (共進會).[6] The two groups worked together led by Chiang Yi-wu (蔣翊武) and Sun wu (孫武).[5] In September 1911 they began collaborating with the Tongmenghui.

(Tongmenghui)The Tongmenghui, also known as the Chinese United League, United League, Chinese Revolutionary Alliance, Chinese Alliance and United Allegiance Society, was a secret society and underground resistance movement formed when merging many Chinese revolutionary groups together by Sun Yat-sen, Song Jiaoren in Tokyo, Japan, on 20 August 1905.

While the explosion caused the discovery of revolutionaries. It was the mutiny that started everything. If you want to scroll down that wiki article you read, you can see that it states: Sun Yat-sen himself played no direct part with the uprising in Wuchang. He was traveling in the United States, trying to drum up financial support from overseas Chinese.

Out of curiosity, are you folks from a Mandarin or Cantonese family background?

As far as I can tell, both side of my parents are native Cantonese. My dad's Hakka, so we could considered non-Punti if you go back far enough. It's entirely anecdotal, but I find that Cantonese people are far more moderate in their views (in regards to nationalism). Maybe it's their earlier exposure to Western culture and ability to think critically. Who knows.

What I don't understand is damingli's obsession that anything he considered "West" is inherently bad. Perspectives like that was basically the downfall of Qing government, when the conservative authorities basically failed to modernize their country.

While the explosion caused the discovery of revolutionaries. It was the mutiny that started everything. If you want to scroll down that wiki article you read, you can see that it states: Sun Yat-sen himself played no direct part with the uprising in Wuchang. He was traveling in the United States, trying to drum up financial support from overseas Chinese.

You really are full-on retard aren't you? I guess Hamilton, Jefferson, and Franklin were just some chums who rode along George Washington's coat-tail...

Out of curiosity, are you folks from a Mandarin or Cantonese family background?

As far as I can tell, both side of my parents are native Cantonese. My dad's Hakka, so we could considered non-Punti if you go back far enough. It's entirely anecdotal, but I find that Cantonese people are far more moderate in their views (in regards to nationalism). Maybe it's their earlier exposure to Western culture and ability to think critically. Who knows.

What I don't understand is damingli's obsession that anything he considered "West" is inherently bad. Perspectives like that was basically the downfall of Qing government, when the conservative authorities basically failed to modernize their country.

While the explosion caused the discovery of revolutionaries. It was the mutiny that started everything. If you want to scroll down that wiki article you read, you can see that it states: Sun Yat-sen himself played no direct part with the uprising in Wuchang. He was traveling in the United States, trying to drum up financial support from overseas Chinese.

You really are full-on retard aren't you? I guess Hamilton, Jefferson, and Franklin were just some chums who rode along George Washington's coat-tail...

Are you even Chinese?

You found me out, I actually suffer from this disease that turns my eyes all Asian like, and instead of my previous white skin, I am not yellow/tannish. I use to have blonde hair and blue eyes, now I have black hair and brown eyes. I am just trying to act cool bro.

While the explosion caused the discovery of revolutionaries. It was the mutiny that started everything. If you want to scroll down that wiki article you read, you can see that it states: Sun Yat-sen himself played no direct part with the uprising in Wuchang. He was traveling in the United States, trying to drum up financial support from overseas Chinese.

You really are full-on retard aren't you? I guess Hamilton, Jefferson, and Franklin were just some chums who rode along George Washington's coat-tail...

Are you even Chinese?

Actually Washington wasn't even present at the Battles of Lexington and Concorde. So obviously damingli85 would consider him not related to the revolution.

Out of curiosity, are you folks from a Mandarin or Cantonese family background?

As far as I can tell, both side of my parents are native Cantonese. My dad's Hakka, so we could considered non-Punti if you go back far enough. It's entirely anecdotal, but I find that Cantonese people are far more moderate in their views (in regards to nationalism). Maybe it's their earlier exposure to Western culture and ability to think critically. Who knows.

What I don't understand is damingli's obsession that anything he considered "West" is inherently bad. Perspectives like that was basically the downfall of Qing government, when the conservative authorities basically failed to modernize their country.

That is just gross, please don't insult the Li family ever again. JK But seriously though, the idea that it sounds like Cantonese isn't really supported by a lot of reliable facts. Until we invent a time machine to go back, we can never figure out how they sounded, since there was no such a thing as a sound recorder. I assume you speak Cantonese?

That is just gross, please don't insult the Li family ever again. JK But seriously though, the idea that it sounds like Cantonese isn't really supported by a lot of reliable facts. Until we invent a time machine to go back, we can never figure out how they sounded, since there was no such a thing as a sound recorder. I assume you speak Cantonese?

Kind of hard to find anything historically accurate past 1949. Since, you know Cultural Revolution and all. Cantonese was my first tongue, and I'm picking up Mandarin here and there.

Back on-topic -

I'm wondering what kind of shit-storm will happen when the property bubble inevitable collapse. I've read articles basically saying that property bubble collapse in China won't be as bad as one we had in 2008, primarily due to the fact that transactions are mostly done in cash (with very little credit involved). I would think it's actually worse in terms of domestic outrage production. With 2008 crash, as bad as personal bankruptcy or foreclosure was on the property owner, at least the pain was spread out somewhat amongst owner, bank, and the public. If property bubble pops in China, 100% of the pain will be on the owners, since they paid using cash. I'm curious as to what Soapbox economist think about such scenario.

Is there a lot of house flipping going on? It really shouldn't matter unless there is.

There is that entire city in Inner Mongolia that is empty. All the houses and apartments are sold but by people invested in them and not living in them.

That will be fun to watch.

Where I live in Nanning, Guangxi province, there is still massive new construction of housing. Just personal observation guessing, it would seem to be at conservative minimum a 50% vacancy rate (I wouldn't be surprised to hear a true vacancy rate of closer to 80%).

On top of that the average price for a 100sqm home appears to be in the neighborhood of $100,000usd. I am still having difficulty wrapping my head around how people can afford to buy them. Average wages just don't come close to covering these kinds of prices--thus the huge vacancy rate. It would seem that the high vacancy rate HAS to force a collapse in prices at some point.

BTW, I am renting 108sqm for about $180usd per month. In the U.S., $180usd per month would service a $30,000usd mortage at 4% over 30 years.

I know that home loans in China are less common that in the U.S.--cash purchases are more common. But it seems to me that the current rent structure reflects something closer to the real price these homes should be selling for. So would a bubble bursting in China close that gap substantially? If so, then the collapse would be astonishingly bad compared to the U.S. bubble that only cost me about 40% of the market value of my house in Portland, OR.

Out of curiosity, are you folks from a Mandarin or Cantonese family background?

As far as I can tell, both side of my parents are native Cantonese. My dad's Hakka, so we could considered non-Punti if you go back far enough. It's entirely anecdotal, but I find that Cantonese people are far more moderate in their views (in regards to nationalism). Maybe it's their earlier exposure to Western culture and ability to think critically. Who knows.

What I don't understand is damingli's obsession that anything he considered "West" is inherently bad. Perspectives like that was basically the downfall of Qing government, when the conservative authorities basically failed to modernize their country.

heh I see why we don't see eye to eye.

This is what came to mind when you were curious about having such divergent viewpoints.

Judging by the increasing effort at reality distortion put up by the CCP the only hope for more freedom is when a sufficient number of the old guard generation has died. The new generation in power will still be very corrupt, but at least they won't have the same amount of ideological baggage so we can aim for a more Western style corporatocracy.

Heard a few years ago that the CP grooms the heir-apparents in the ideology, with all the privilege, from a very young age, so that as young adults, they're at least as hardcore as the old guard.

They also invite successful entrepreneurs to join the Party, if they're not already members. So the members have every incentive to protect their privilege.

Nor should this surprise anyone who observes Chinese politics (in so far as they are observable).

I've said it many times over, but every organ of the state and party is exercised for the sole purpose of guaranteeing continuation of Communist Party rule. There is no other consideration. The People's Republic of China only exists so that the Communist Party can rule it.

See, US has 300 million people but we only have to elect a few hundred every couple of years to turn over the govt.

Get the leaders to walk away now with their billions and maybe they won't get decapitated.

But in the big scheme of things turning over leadership doesn't generally create big changes in the U.S. every 4-8 years, right? The Civil Rights Act wasn't passed until 100 years after the end of the Civil War. How many different times in that period did the U.S. see leadership change? Gay rights and gay marriage is another example of change that is inevitable. But it's taken how many years and how many changes in leadership to get to the brink of actually becoming law?

My point was, progress is certainly being made in China. So a lot people think a lot of things still need to be improved. Fine. Regardless of what the government is called or how it got the leadership position, progress has and will continue to be made. History has already shown this to be true.