1. He won 6 NBA Titles2. Jordan had no weaknesses in his game.3. He had a great Jump shot.4. He could use either hand, able to go to his left as well as his right.5. He was a great ball handler.6. He was a great rebounder.7. Best driving ability ever.8. Excellent defender (he led the league in steals more than once, and was named defensive player of the year. He was also a great shot blocker.)9. He made his teammates better (just ask anyone who played with him.)4. He possessed a wonderful basketball IQ.5. He had an unparralleled work ethic.6. His competitive streak was next to none.

You can cite Oscar Robertson's stats all day long (and they were quite amazing), but if you and I had the same 4 players going against each other, I'd gladly take Jordan in his prime over Oscar in his prime to add to my four any day of the week.

As for Magic, he's one of the top five of all time in my book. But he had weaknesses in his game. He wasn't a great defender, and he didn't have a great jump shot.

Listen, Jordan is top-5, but it's hard to compare folks across positions and eras. His 6 rings are chump change compared to some of the greats; he couldn't play or defend the 5 (and couldn't defend the 4), so don't say, "he had no flaws" (vs. Magic, who could play all 5 positions at a championship level, the Big O who could play 4 at a championship level, etc.); there have been better jump shooters and scorers throughout the ages (Larry Bird, etc.).

He calls himself the best, and may be the best, but it's not an uncontested race, and certainly not as clear-cut as you'd like it to be. He benefited from the role players he detested (even Scottie), and his abuse of them in practice is well documented. He couldn't win in the playoffs until those role players (and Scottie, who was a HOF-er in his own right) developed and were put in place. He excelled and won because he was an insufferable man who cared little for his teammates and less for his opponents, who strove to perfect himself constantly while also specifically seeking opportunities to continue humiliating others, taking advantage of people and situations, and ultimately putting himself above all others, including family and friends. He was a great ball player, but would also have been a great assassin (cold blooded, ruthless, relentless).

Ultimately, the best players in history (so far) have rarely been "alone" on their teams - i.e. nothing but average players around them.

And as for the straight-up 2 teams with the same floor + 1 great that you propose, a team with Wilt, the Big O, Jerry West, Magic, or Bill Russell in their primes as the +1, and adjusted for the differences in training in one era vs another, would wipe the floor with Jordan as the +1. At least 3 of the people on the list needed to be triple-teamed on D, while Jordan could be neutralized with a decent double-team.

Father Bless,

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but you are obviously confusing your personal disdain for Michael Jordan as a person with an objective analysis of his greatness as a basketball player.

Please name one weakness in Jordan's game. Stating that there were others who were better at a particular aspect of the game does not equate to Jordan being deficient in that area.

The bottom line is that if you and I were given the same four players, and you added Magic, Oscar, Wilt, or anyone else to your four and I added Jordan to my same four, I would win at least 7 out of 10 games. I guess there's no way to prove that, but anyone who truly knows the game of basketball would agree with me (just ask those who played and coached both with and against Jordan, and I promise you that they'd tell you the same.) Bob Knight, who abhorred selfish, individualistic basketball had this to say about Jordan when he coached him in the Olympics (when Jordan was only a college sophomore): "Michael Jordan is the best basketball player that will ever play this game."

It's sad that our culture has become so soft and feminized that anyone who demands perfection and excellence both from themselves and from those around them is condemned as selfish and insufferable. I can assure you that any true competitor would gladly have suffered Jordan's demanding nature in order to win 6 NBA rings.

Jordan is no Saint, but he isn't nearly as dispicable as you make him out to be.

Again, no disrespect to you Father.

Selam

I will not hide behind any pretenses. I am attacking you, your opinions, and how you treat other people

Instead of lashing out at people, and saying that their opinions are biased because of their supposed hatred for the guy, take some time to do a little soul searching on your part, and realize, here's a big shocker YOU MIGHT BE WRONG AND BIASED YOURSELF BASED ON YOUR LOVE OF HIM. take off the rose coloured glasses bud

i like to call this arrogance, being cocky, and being a complete tool who thinks his fecal matter doesnt stink, and is perfect. Oh wait, im talking to the all mighty Gebre, who is infalliable. my mistake. sorry that im not sorryim going to call this sexism, and insulting and degrading to women as an entire gender and sex.

assuming the inner motives of players again, havent we been through this before

so please, cut the crap of saying you dont mean to offend, when your entire post was disrespectful

and yes, this post IS disrespectful, but mabye a nice hard crack on the noggin is what oyu need to teach others respect, and not hide behind passive agressive pacificsm

Nice. Would you like to stick to the topic at hand please? This is a discussion about sports, and I have remained on topic. You haven't addressed any of the arguments I've made about Michael Jordan's prowess as a basketball player. Instead you have resorted to some cheap armchair psychoanalysis of me as a human being. At least you admit that this is a personal attack. But it would be much more productive if you addressed the topic at hand rather than airing your personal vendetta against me.

Selam

Logged

"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +

That being said, he wasn't good at everything either. He wasn't a great 3 point shooter, nor was he great at rebounding and assists. And there are multiple players who have played in the NBA without any particular weaknesses.

8. Excellent defender (he led the league in steals more than once, and was named defensive player of the year. He was also a great shot blocker.)

He was great at steals, but he only had a few seasons where he was a great shot blocker. A career average of 0.8 blocks per game isn't really special. Examples of actual great shot blockers: Hakeem Olajuwon (3.0), Shaquille O'Neal (2.3), Mark Eaton (3.5), Elmore Smith (2.9). By the way, Ben Wallace was named Defensive Player of the Year 4 times, Dwight Howard 3 times, and Dikembe Mutombo 4 times.

9. He made his teammates better (just ask anyone who played with him.)

Scottie Pippen had the best season of his career without Michael Jordan. In fact, both Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant did better the year Michael Jordan was first retired. Dennis Rodman had already established himself as a great rebounder and defender when he was on the Pistons.

Actually, he was one of the biggest ball hogs to ever play in the NBA. As Doug Collins once said, "Do you know who's the biggest obstacle to us running? Michael Jordan, that's who. He won't let go of the ball."

You are actually making my point without realizing it. Nobody you mentioned here possessed the combination of all these skills. There have been better pure shooters, better rebounders, better ball handlers, etc.; but no NBA player has ever possessed the perfect combination of all these attributes. Also, please understand that Jordan was constantly improving as well. You can't judge him simply by the player he was early in his career.

Selam

First of all, Michael Jordan does not possess a perfect combination of skills; the only areas in which he excelled were points per game, steals per game, and field goal percentage. His rebounds per game, blocks per game, free throw percentage, three point field goal percentage, and assists per game are a bit short of special. Second of all, there are some players out there who have combinations that, while not perfect, are outstanding nonetheless (I'm not comparing them to Michael Jordan, though):

I guess you can quibble with my use of the word "perfect." In sports, there is no such thing as perfection. But Jordan clearly possessed the best combination of basketball skills that the sport has ever seen. Again, he had no weaknesses in his game. And no one has provided me of a clear example of any weakness he had at the prime of his career. And I will reiterate that just because other players were better at a particular aspect of the game does not equate to Jordan being deficient in that area.

Selam

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"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +

I was going to respond to Gebre's trashy response, but TheMathematician beat me to it. Gebre: Your response is ripe with hypocrisy, bias, and arrogance. When one wants to compare players of different eras, one must do so on equal footing, which you're not doing; otherwise, you're either guilty of lazy history, or stacking the deck. It's like arguing that there may have never been a better player on Naismith's team than Jordan because he can dunk; it overlooks the fact that if you wish to compare apples-to-apples, you'd have to either have Naismith's players get trained in modern basketball, or have Jordan grow up with Naismith's version of the game (no dribbling, peach-basket hoop, no backboard at first, 1 point per basket, etc.). There are semi-objective ways of determining this, but any analysis of one player against others of a different era has inherent subjective elements that cannot be dismissed - therefore rendering any argument of, "There's no doubt he's the best ever" ridiculous. "Anyone who truly knows the game of basketball" - give me a break. How have you factored in the addition of the 3-pointer, changes to the charge and block rules, the addition of the 3- and 5-second rules, etc. into your analysis? YOU HAVEN'T! Put Wilt in the same development track as Jordan, and we may very well have never heard of the UNC kid.

I really do think anyone whose position is, "Michael Jordan is the best ever, no question about it, there's no reason to debate it" crowd is really just a victim of excellent marketing from Nike et al., period. Come back to the discussion forum when you're ready to engage in a real discussion.

Father Bless,

I am not Priest, so I realize that do not deserve the same respectful treatment that you do. However, I am your Orthodox Christian brother, and I do have feelings. I am a bit saddened that you would refer to my post about Michael Jordan as "trashy." As much as I disagree with you on this topic, I still would not call your views "trashy" simply because they disagreed with my own.

I have made my arguments by stating the facts and offering my unvarnished opinion about the matter. But there is no way to persuade those who do not have open minds. When you argue from the premise that players of a different era would have been as great or greater than Jordan if they had played in his day and age, then that is as biased of an argument as can be manufactured. There is simply no foundation to support such a claim. It is speculative at best.

Father, I also find in a bit hypocritical of you to chastise those of us who are arguing that Jordan is the greatest as being unreasonable and not worthy of participating is this debate. It's quite clear that you are emphatically opposed to the idea that Jordan is the greatest, and you dismiss those of us who disagree with you as not having a "real discussion."

As I said before Father, I truly mean no disrespect. I would like to hear more of your views on the subject.

Selam

Logged

"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +

1. He won 6 NBA Titles2. Jordan had no weaknesses in his game.3. He had a great Jump shot.4. He could use either hand, able to go to his left as well as his right.5. He was a great ball handler.6. He was a great rebounder.7. Best driving ability ever.8. Excellent defender (he led the league in steals more than once, and was named defensive player of the year. He was also a great shot blocker.)9. He made his teammates better (just ask anyone who played with him.)4. He possessed a wonderful basketball IQ.5. He had an unparralleled work ethic.6. His competitive streak was next to none.

You can cite Oscar Robertson's stats all day long (and they were quite amazing), but if you and I had the same 4 players going against each other, I'd gladly take Jordan in his prime over Oscar in his prime to add to my four any day of the week.

As for Magic, he's one of the top five of all time in my book. But he had weaknesses in his game. He wasn't a great defender, and he didn't have a great jump shot.

Listen, Jordan is top-5, but it's hard to compare folks across positions and eras. His 6 rings are chump change compared to some of the greats; he couldn't play or defend the 5 (and couldn't defend the 4), so don't say, "he had no flaws" (vs. Magic, who could play all 5 positions at a championship level, the Big O who could play 4 at a championship level, etc.); there have been better jump shooters and scorers throughout the ages (Larry Bird, etc.).

He calls himself the best, and may be the best, but it's not an uncontested race, and certainly not as clear-cut as you'd like it to be. He benefited from the role players he detested (even Scottie), and his abuse of them in practice is well documented. He couldn't win in the playoffs until those role players (and Scottie, who was a HOF-er in his own right) developed and were put in place. He excelled and won because he was an insufferable man who cared little for his teammates and less for his opponents, who strove to perfect himself constantly while also specifically seeking opportunities to continue humiliating others, taking advantage of people and situations, and ultimately putting himself above all others, including family and friends. He was a great ball player, but would also have been a great assassin (cold blooded, ruthless, relentless).

Ultimately, the best players in history (so far) have rarely been "alone" on their teams - i.e. nothing but average players around them.

And as for the straight-up 2 teams with the same floor + 1 great that you propose, a team with Wilt, the Big O, Jerry West, Magic, or Bill Russell in their primes as the +1, and adjusted for the differences in training in one era vs another, would wipe the floor with Jordan as the +1. At least 3 of the people on the list needed to be triple-teamed on D, while Jordan could be neutralized with a decent double-team.

Father Bless,

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but you are obviously confusing your personal disdain for Michael Jordan as a person with an objective analysis of his greatness as a basketball player.

Please name one weakness in Jordan's game. Stating that there were others who were better at a particular aspect of the game does not equate to Jordan being deficient in that area.

The bottom line is that if you and I were given the same four players, and you added Magic, Oscar, Wilt, or anyone else to your four and I added Jordan to my same four, I would win at least 7 out of 10 games. I guess there's no way to prove that, but anyone who truly knows the game of basketball would agree with me (just ask those who played and coached both with and against Jordan, and I promise you that they'd tell you the same.) Bob Knight, who abhorred selfish, individualistic basketball had this to say about Jordan when he coached him in the Olympics (when Jordan was only a college sophomore): "Michael Jordan is the best basketball player that will ever play this game."

It's sad that our culture has become so soft and feminized that anyone who demands perfection and excellence both from themselves and from those around them is condemned as selfish and insufferable. I can assure you that any true competitor would gladly have suffered Jordan's demanding nature in order to win 6 NBA rings.

Jordan is no Saint, but he isn't nearly as dispicable as you make him out to be.

Again, no disrespect to you Father.

Selam

I will not hide behind any pretenses. I am attacking you, your opinions, and how you treat other people

Instead of lashing out at people, and saying that their opinions are biased because of their supposed hatred for the guy, take some time to do a little soul searching on your part, and realize, here's a big shocker YOU MIGHT BE WRONG AND BIASED YOURSELF BASED ON YOUR LOVE OF HIM. take off the rose coloured glasses bud

i like to call this arrogance, being cocky, and being a complete tool who thinks his fecal matter doesnt stink, and is perfect. Oh wait, im talking to the all mighty Gebre, who is infalliable. my mistake. sorry that im not sorryim going to call this sexism, and insulting and degrading to women as an entire gender and sex.

assuming the inner motives of players again, havent we been through this before

so please, cut the crap of saying you dont mean to offend, when your entire post was disrespectful

and yes, this post IS disrespectful, but mabye a nice hard crack on the noggin is what oyu need to teach others respect, and not hide behind passive agressive pacificsm

Nice. Would you like to stick to the topic at hand please? This is a discussion about sports, and I have remained on topic. You haven't addressed any of the arguments I've made about Michael Jordan's prowess as a basketball player. Instead you have resorted to some cheap armchair psychoanalysis of me as a human being. At least you admit that this is a personal attack. But it would be much more productive if you addressed the topic at hand rather than airing your personal vendetta against me.

Selam

What he posted IS on topic. Besides that, I'm glad he said it and not I, for I would not have been so charitable.

I was going to respond to Gebre's trashy response, but TheMathematician beat me to it. Gebre: Your response is ripe with hypocrisy, bias, and arrogance. When one wants to compare players of different eras, one must do so on equal footing, which you're not doing; otherwise, you're either guilty of lazy history, or stacking the deck. It's like arguing that there may have never been a better player on Naismith's team than Jordan because he can dunk; it overlooks the fact that if you wish to compare apples-to-apples, you'd have to either have Naismith's players get trained in modern basketball, or have Jordan grow up with Naismith's version of the game (no dribbling, peach-basket hoop, no backboard at first, 1 point per basket, etc.). There are semi-objective ways of determining this, but any analysis of one player against others of a different era has inherent subjective elements that cannot be dismissed - therefore rendering any argument of, "There's no doubt he's the best ever" ridiculous. "Anyone who truly knows the game of basketball" - give me a break. How have you factored in the addition of the 3-pointer, changes to the charge and block rules, the addition of the 3- and 5-second rules, etc. into your analysis? YOU HAVEN'T! Put Wilt in the same development track as Jordan, and we may very well have never heard of the UNC kid.

I really do think anyone whose position is, "Michael Jordan is the best ever, no question about it, there's no reason to debate it" crowd is really just a victim of excellent marketing from Nike et al., period. Come back to the discussion forum when you're ready to engage in a real discussion.

Father Bless,

I am not Priest, so I realize that do not deserve the same respectful treatment that you do. However, I am your Orthodox Christian brother, and I do have feelings. I am a bit saddened that you would refer to my post about Michael Jordan as "trashy." As much as I disagree with you on this topic, I still would not call your views "trashy" simply because they disagreed with my own.

I have made my arguments by stating the facts and offering my unvarnished opinion about the matter. But there is no way to persuade those who do not have open minds. When you argue from the premise that players of a different era would have been as great or greater than Jordan if they had played in his day and age, then that is as biased of an argument as can be manufactured. There is simply no foundation to support such a claim. It is speculative at best.

Father, I also find in a bit hypocritical of you to chastise those of us who are arguing that Jordan is the greatest as being unreasonable and not worthy of participating is this debate. It's quite clear that you are emphatically opposed to the idea that Jordan is the greatest, and you dismiss those of us who disagree with you as not having a "real discussion."

As I said before Father, I truly mean no disrespect. I would like to hear more of your views on the subject.

Selam

Clearly you've never participated in sports trash talk around the water cooler.

So the Nationals didnt get Prince Fielder after all. Great news for the Braves and the rest of the NL East!

*Tomahawk Chop*

Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

So the Nationals didnt get Prince Fielder after all. Great news for the Braves and the rest of the NL East!

*Tomahawk Chop*

my tigers got him, im soo exicited for this

Im excited for you! I just didnt want to have to face him 18 times a year. Ha!

Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

So the Nationals didnt get Prince Fielder after all. Great news for the Braves and the rest of the NL East!

*Tomahawk Chop*

my tigers got him, im soo exicited for this

Didn't Prince Fielder's dad Cecil also play for the Tigers back in his day?

Yes, he did.

Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

Rooting for the NY Giants in the Super Bowl, solely because Eli is from Nawlins

Just like last year's Packers-Steelers, it is a David and Goliath Superbowl.. David being the innocent yet talented upsetter, and Goliath being the crooked and favored champion.

As much as the Giants hurt me during the whole Packers-Farve fiascos, because of my displeasure with the Patriots I too will be having to root for New York, even after they embarrassed my Falcons so much.. I must give Eli his credit though, that brother survived 5 sacks and 68 drawbacks against that insane 9erz defense, and there wasn't a single Giants turnover or fumble even in that driving rain!!

That is talent and athleticism, and I must tip my hat

stay blessed,habte selassie

Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

That being said, he wasn't good at everything either. He wasn't a great 3 point shooter, nor was he great at rebounding and assists. And there are multiple players who have played in the NBA without any particular weaknesses.

8. Excellent defender (he led the league in steals more than once, and was named defensive player of the year. He was also a great shot blocker.)

He was great at steals, but he only had a few seasons where he was a great shot blocker. A career average of 0.8 blocks per game isn't really special. Examples of actual great shot blockers: Hakeem Olajuwon (3.0), Shaquille O'Neal (2.3), Mark Eaton (3.5), Elmore Smith (2.9). By the way, Ben Wallace was named Defensive Player of the Year 4 times, Dwight Howard 3 times, and Dikembe Mutombo 4 times.

9. He made his teammates better (just ask anyone who played with him.)

Scottie Pippen had the best season of his career without Michael Jordan. In fact, both Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant did better the year Michael Jordan was first retired. Dennis Rodman had already established himself as a great rebounder and defender when he was on the Pistons.

Actually, he was one of the biggest ball hogs to ever play in the NBA. As Doug Collins once said, "Do you know who's the biggest obstacle to us running? Michael Jordan, that's who. He won't let go of the ball."

You are actually making my point without realizing it. Nobody you mentioned here possessed the combination of all these skills. There have been better pure shooters, better rebounders, better ball handlers, etc.; but no NBA player has ever possessed the perfect combination of all these attributes. Also, please understand that Jordan was constantly improving as well. You can't judge him simply by the player he was early in his career.

Selam

First of all, Michael Jordan does not possess a perfect combination of skills; the only areas in which he excelled were points per game, steals per game, and field goal percentage. His rebounds per game, blocks per game, free throw percentage, three point field goal percentage, and assists per game are a bit short of special. Second of all, there are some players out there who have combinations that, while not perfect, are outstanding nonetheless (I'm not comparing them to Michael Jordan, though):

I guess you can quibble with my use of the word "perfect." In sports, there is no such thing as perfection. But Jordan clearly possessed the best combination of basketball skills that the sport has ever seen. Again, he had no weaknesses in his game. And no one has provided me of a clear example of any weakness he had at the prime of his career. And I will reiterate that just because other players were better at a particular aspect of the game does not equate to Jordan being deficient in that area.

Selam

I just showed you nine other players who also had great combinations of skills. As for weaknesses, Michael Jordan was not a good three point shooter, and he had trouble covering point guards.

Rooting for the NY Giants in the Super Bowl, solely because Eli is from Nawlins

Just like last year's Packers-Steelers, it is a David and Goliath Superbowl.. David being the innocent yet talented upsetter, and Goliath being the crooked and favored champion.

As much as the Giants hurt me during the whole Packers-Farve fiascos, because of my displeasure with the Patriots I too will be having to root for New York, even after they embarrassed my Falcons so much.. I must give Eli his credit though, that brother survived 5 sacks and 68 drawbacks against that insane 9erz defense, and there wasn't a single Giants turnover or fumble even in that driving rain!!

That is talent and athleticism, and I must tip my hat

stay blessed,habte selassie

I feel like you've exceeded the number of NFL teams you can refer to with the adjective "my." Just pick a side.

Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Rooting for the NY Giants in the Super Bowl, solely because Eli is from Nawlins

Just like last year's Packers-Steelers, it is a David and Goliath Superbowl.. David being the innocent yet talented upsetter, and Goliath being the crooked and favored champion.

As much as the Giants hurt me during the whole Packers-Farve fiascos, because of my displeasure with the Patriots I too will be having to root for New York, even after they embarrassed my Falcons so much.. I must give Eli his credit though, that brother survived 5 sacks and 68 drawbacks against that insane 9erz defense, and there wasn't a single Giants turnover or fumble even in that driving rain!!

That is talent and athleticism, and I must tip my hat

stay blessed,habte selassie

I feel like you've exceeded the number of NFL teams you can refer to with the adjective "my." Just pick a side.

Falcons and Ravens are my teams for the East, Raiders and 9erz are my teams for the West, or to rephrase that, Falcons and 9erz are my teams for the NFC, Ravens and Raiderz are my teams for AFC

I'm from LA, we hedge our bets

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 07:55:24 PM by HabteSelassie »

Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Rooting for the NY Giants in the Super Bowl, solely because Eli is from Nawlins

Just like last year's Packers-Steelers, it is a David and Goliath Superbowl.. David being the innocent yet talented upsetter, and Goliath being the crooked and favored champion.

As much as the Giants hurt me during the whole Packers-Farve fiascos, because of my displeasure with the Patriots I too will be having to root for New York, even after they embarrassed my Falcons so much.. I must give Eli his credit though, that brother survived 5 sacks and 68 drawbacks against that insane 9erz defense, and there wasn't a single Giants turnover or fumble even in that driving rain!!

That is talent and athleticism, and I must tip my hat

stay blessed,habte selassie

I feel like you've exceeded the number of NFL teams you can refer to with the adjective "my." Just pick a side.

Falcons and Ravens are my teams for the East, Raiders and 9erz are my teams for the West, or to rephrase that, Falcons and 9erz are my teams for the NFC, Ravens and Raiderz are my teams for AFC

That being said, he wasn't good at everything either. He wasn't a great 3 point shooter, nor was he great at rebounding and assists. And there are multiple players who have played in the NBA without any particular weaknesses.

8. Excellent defender (he led the league in steals more than once, and was named defensive player of the year. He was also a great shot blocker.)

He was great at steals, but he only had a few seasons where he was a great shot blocker. A career average of 0.8 blocks per game isn't really special. Examples of actual great shot blockers: Hakeem Olajuwon (3.0), Shaquille O'Neal (2.3), Mark Eaton (3.5), Elmore Smith (2.9). By the way, Ben Wallace was named Defensive Player of the Year 4 times, Dwight Howard 3 times, and Dikembe Mutombo 4 times.

9. He made his teammates better (just ask anyone who played with him.)

Scottie Pippen had the best season of his career without Michael Jordan. In fact, both Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant did better the year Michael Jordan was first retired. Dennis Rodman had already established himself as a great rebounder and defender when he was on the Pistons.

Actually, he was one of the biggest ball hogs to ever play in the NBA. As Doug Collins once said, "Do you know who's the biggest obstacle to us running? Michael Jordan, that's who. He won't let go of the ball."

You are actually making my point without realizing it. Nobody you mentioned here possessed the combination of all these skills. There have been better pure shooters, better rebounders, better ball handlers, etc.; but no NBA player has ever possessed the perfect combination of all these attributes. Also, please understand that Jordan was constantly improving as well. You can't judge him simply by the player he was early in his career.

Selam

First of all, Michael Jordan does not possess a perfect combination of skills; the only areas in which he excelled were points per game, steals per game, and field goal percentage. His rebounds per game, blocks per game, free throw percentage, three point field goal percentage, and assists per game are a bit short of special. Second of all, there are some players out there who have combinations that, while not perfect, are outstanding nonetheless (I'm not comparing them to Michael Jordan, though):

I guess you can quibble with my use of the word "perfect." In sports, there is no such thing as perfection. But Jordan clearly possessed the best combination of basketball skills that the sport has ever seen. Again, he had no weaknesses in his game. And no one has provided me of a clear example of any weakness he had at the prime of his career. And I will reiterate that just because other players were better at a particular aspect of the game does not equate to Jordan being deficient in that area.

Selam

I just showed you nine other players who also had great combinations of skills. As for weaknesses, Michael Jordan was not a good three point shooter, and he had trouble covering point guards.

In my opinion, none of the players you mentioned even come close to possessing the same combination of skills that Jordan possessed. But I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point.

Jordan was in fact a very good three point shooter, especially later in his career. Sure, he wasn't the greatest three point shooter there ever was, but it certainly wasn't a weakness.

I also think that your assertion that Jordan had trouble guarding point guards and citing that as a weakness is a pretty feckless argument. First of all, Jordan didn't usually defend point guards, so it's kind of a moot point. Second, I never saw a point guard dominate Jordan on a consistent basis.

Selam

« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 07:26:00 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »

Logged

"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +

I was going to respond to Gebre's trashy response, but TheMathematician beat me to it. Gebre: Your response is ripe with hypocrisy, bias, and arrogance. When one wants to compare players of different eras, one must do so on equal footing, which you're not doing; otherwise, you're either guilty of lazy history, or stacking the deck. It's like arguing that there may have never been a better player on Naismith's team than Jordan because he can dunk; it overlooks the fact that if you wish to compare apples-to-apples, you'd have to either have Naismith's players get trained in modern basketball, or have Jordan grow up with Naismith's version of the game (no dribbling, peach-basket hoop, no backboard at first, 1 point per basket, etc.). There are semi-objective ways of determining this, but any analysis of one player against others of a different era has inherent subjective elements that cannot be dismissed - therefore rendering any argument of, "There's no doubt he's the best ever" ridiculous. "Anyone who truly knows the game of basketball" - give me a break. How have you factored in the addition of the 3-pointer, changes to the charge and block rules, the addition of the 3- and 5-second rules, etc. into your analysis? YOU HAVEN'T! Put Wilt in the same development track as Jordan, and we may very well have never heard of the UNC kid.

I really do think anyone whose position is, "Michael Jordan is the best ever, no question about it, there's no reason to debate it" crowd is really just a victim of excellent marketing from Nike et al., period. Come back to the discussion forum when you're ready to engage in a real discussion.

Father Bless,

I am not Priest, so I realize that do not deserve the same respectful treatment that you do. However, I am your Orthodox Christian brother, and I do have feelings. I am a bit saddened that you would refer to my post about Michael Jordan as "trashy." As much as I disagree with you on this topic, I still would not call your views "trashy" simply because they disagreed with my own.

I have made my arguments by stating the facts and offering my unvarnished opinion about the matter. But there is no way to persuade those who do not have open minds. When you argue from the premise that players of a different era would have been as great or greater than Jordan if they had played in his day and age, then that is as biased of an argument as can be manufactured. There is simply no foundation to support such a claim. It is speculative at best.

Father, I also find in a bit hypocritical of you to chastise those of us who are arguing that Jordan is the greatest as being unreasonable and not worthy of participating is this debate. It's quite clear that you are emphatically opposed to the idea that Jordan is the greatest, and you dismiss those of us who disagree with you as not having a "real discussion."

As I said before Father, I truly mean no disrespect. I would like to hear more of your views on the subject.

Selam

Clearly you've never participated in sports trash talk around the water cooler.

Clearly you've never participated in trash talk on the playground. In fact, I'm pretty certain that you've never played sports on a competative level at all. I can assure you that if you exhibited your petulant behavior on the basketball playground in my neighborhood, then you would have learned your lesson by now.

Selam

Logged

"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

“It’s one thing to hope to be like him, it’s another thing to be like him. We have to take Michael Jordan out of the equation. Stop comparing anyone to Michael Jordan. It’s just not fair.” –Phil Jackson-

“Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player that will ever play this game.” –Bob Knight-

“Michael is the greatest ever — point blank." -Magic Johnson-

“There’s no question that Michael is head and shoulders above everybody else. He not only dominated on offense and defense, but there will never be another basketball player like him. He will go down in history like Muhammad Ali, maybe even bigger.” –Magic Johnson-

“Jordan possessed the perfect combination of the will to win with the skill to win.” -Magic Johnson-

“Michael Jordan was the best defensive player who played during our era.” –Charles Barkley-

“Jordan’s will to win drove his teammates will to win. Scotty Pippen, Horace Grant, B.J. Armstrong all developed stronger wills because of Jordan. His will was contagious. That’s what makes his so special- not only what he did on the court, but because he made everyone around him better.” -Danny Ainge-

“There are no players today who can dominate a game without scoring 30 like Jordan could. There were games where Jordan didn’t score 30 and yet he dominated the game with his defense, assists, and rebounds. He was the total package.” -Kenny Smith-

“Michael Jordan was the best fundamental player in basketball. He was always trying to improve, and he always wanted everyone to know that he was trying to improve.” –Kenny Smith-

"One thing about Michael that stood out was how hard he worked. We expected he'd get better because of that, and he did, year after year. A player with that kind of talent who works as hard as Michael did has a chance to do great things, and he was smart about it. He'd listen closely to what the coaches said and then go do it. I don't know that anybody ever combined the physical and the mental sides with the effort the way Michael did.” –Dean Smith-

“In my opinion, Jordan was clearly the best basketball player ever. But more importantly, he was the best competitor ever.” –P.J. Carlisimo-

“We all say, ‘This is the guy. This is the best.’ And we say it with great pride. It was an honor to compete against him.” -Isiah Thomas-

“When you see his competitive drive, his tremendous work ethic, and combine that with his athletic ability- to me, he is the greatest to ever play.” -Doug Collins-

In 1984, Coach Bobby Knight was coming off a gold-medal Olympic run with Michael Jordan. Knight was friends with then Portland Trailblazer GM, Stu Inman, and called to sell him on Jordan as their first pick in the upcoming NBA draft. With Clyde Drexler already on the team, Inman had other plans. Inman: “We need a center.” Bobby Knight: “Then draft Jordan, and play him at center.”

A humorous story about Bob Knight coaching Michael Jordan on the 1984 U.S. Olympic team: The Americans were up big at halftime in the gold medal and Knight wanted to make sure his team didn't get complacent. He decided to get on Jordan, who was playing well, to send a message to the rest of the team. He told Jordan he was the only U.S. player who wasn't setting screens. Jordan responded: "Coach, didn't I read recently where you thought I was the quickest player you'd ever been around?""I said, 'Michael, what does that have to do with you screening?' He said, 'I think I'm setting them quicker than you can see them.'"

Selam

« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 08:32:38 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »

Logged

"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +

I was going to respond to Gebre's trashy response, but TheMathematician beat me to it. Gebre: Your response is ripe with hypocrisy, bias, and arrogance. When one wants to compare players of different eras, one must do so on equal footing, which you're not doing; otherwise, you're either guilty of lazy history, or stacking the deck. It's like arguing that there may have never been a better player on Naismith's team than Jordan because he can dunk; it overlooks the fact that if you wish to compare apples-to-apples, you'd have to either have Naismith's players get trained in modern basketball, or have Jordan grow up with Naismith's version of the game (no dribbling, peach-basket hoop, no backboard at first, 1 point per basket, etc.). There are semi-objective ways of determining this, but any analysis of one player against others of a different era has inherent subjective elements that cannot be dismissed - therefore rendering any argument of, "There's no doubt he's the best ever" ridiculous. "Anyone who truly knows the game of basketball" - give me a break. How have you factored in the addition of the 3-pointer, changes to the charge and block rules, the addition of the 3- and 5-second rules, etc. into your analysis? YOU HAVEN'T! Put Wilt in the same development track as Jordan, and we may very well have never heard of the UNC kid.

I really do think anyone whose position is, "Michael Jordan is the best ever, no question about it, there's no reason to debate it" crowd is really just a victim of excellent marketing from Nike et al., period. Come back to the discussion forum when you're ready to engage in a real discussion.

Father Bless,

I am not Priest, so I realize that do not deserve the same respectful treatment that you do. However, I am your Orthodox Christian brother, and I do have feelings. I am a bit saddened that you would refer to my post about Michael Jordan as "trashy." As much as I disagree with you on this topic, I still would not call your views "trashy" simply because they disagreed with my own.

I have made my arguments by stating the facts and offering my unvarnished opinion about the matter. But there is no way to persuade those who do not have open minds. When you argue from the premise that players of a different era would have been as great or greater than Jordan if they had played in his day and age, then that is as biased of an argument as can be manufactured. There is simply no foundation to support such a claim. It is speculative at best.

Father, I also find in a bit hypocritical of you to chastise those of us who are arguing that Jordan is the greatest as being unreasonable and not worthy of participating is this debate. It's quite clear that you are emphatically opposed to the idea that Jordan is the greatest, and you dismiss those of us who disagree with you as not having a "real discussion."

As I said before Father, I truly mean no disrespect. I would like to hear more of your views on the subject.

Selam

Clearly you've never participated in sports trash talk around the water cooler.

In fact, I'm pretty certain that you've never played sports on a competative level at all.

And clearly you'd be wrong. I played on the sixth grade basketball team in middle school and the freshman baseball team in high school, and I've played a number of pickup games in both sports. I do know something about competing in sports.

I was going to respond to Gebre's trashy response, but TheMathematician beat me to it. Gebre: Your response is ripe with hypocrisy, bias, and arrogance. When one wants to compare players of different eras, one must do so on equal footing, which you're not doing; otherwise, you're either guilty of lazy history, or stacking the deck. It's like arguing that there may have never been a better player on Naismith's team than Jordan because he can dunk; it overlooks the fact that if you wish to compare apples-to-apples, you'd have to either have Naismith's players get trained in modern basketball, or have Jordan grow up with Naismith's version of the game (no dribbling, peach-basket hoop, no backboard at first, 1 point per basket, etc.). There are semi-objective ways of determining this, but any analysis of one player against others of a different era has inherent subjective elements that cannot be dismissed - therefore rendering any argument of, "There's no doubt he's the best ever" ridiculous. "Anyone who truly knows the game of basketball" - give me a break. How have you factored in the addition of the 3-pointer, changes to the charge and block rules, the addition of the 3- and 5-second rules, etc. into your analysis? YOU HAVEN'T! Put Wilt in the same development track as Jordan, and we may very well have never heard of the UNC kid.

I really do think anyone whose position is, "Michael Jordan is the best ever, no question about it, there's no reason to debate it" crowd is really just a victim of excellent marketing from Nike et al., period. Come back to the discussion forum when you're ready to engage in a real discussion.

Father Bless,

I am not Priest, so I realize that do not deserve the same respectful treatment that you do. However, I am your Orthodox Christian brother, and I do have feelings. I am a bit saddened that you would refer to my post about Michael Jordan as "trashy." As much as I disagree with you on this topic, I still would not call your views "trashy" simply because they disagreed with my own.

I have made my arguments by stating the facts and offering my unvarnished opinion about the matter. But there is no way to persuade those who do not have open minds. When you argue from the premise that players of a different era would have been as great or greater than Jordan if they had played in his day and age, then that is as biased of an argument as can be manufactured. There is simply no foundation to support such a claim. It is speculative at best.

Father, I also find in a bit hypocritical of you to chastise those of us who are arguing that Jordan is the greatest as being unreasonable and not worthy of participating is this debate. It's quite clear that you are emphatically opposed to the idea that Jordan is the greatest, and you dismiss those of us who disagree with you as not having a "real discussion."

As I said before Father, I truly mean no disrespect. I would like to hear more of your views on the subject.

Selam

Clearly you've never participated in sports trash talk around the water cooler.

Clearly you've never participated in trash talk on the playground. In fact, I'm pretty certain that you've never played sports on a competative level at all. I can assure you that if you exhibited your petulant behavior on the basketball playground in my neighborhood, then you would have learned your lesson by now.

Selam

Gebre, please. Grow the heck up, and learn how to treat people. You are one of, no the, most hypocritical people on this entire message board, and I, and i will say, a majority of the board is just sick of you and the crap you try to pull, all whil hiding behind this selam garbage.

If you feel the need to simply passivly agressivly attack people, then mabye you just need to step back from posting altogether, or take a break

32.7% is not good three point shooting. And each of those nine players dominated in anywhere from 4-6 categories (with the exception of Wilt Chamberlain, but blocks weren't recorded back then). The only things Jordan really dominated in were field goal percentage, steals, and scoring. Everything else he was either average at (rebounds, assists, free throw shooting, blocking) or bad at (three point shooting). And actually throughout his career, Michael Jordan played shooting guard, small forward, and point guard (though he is mainly a shooting guard). Allen Iverson did a good job against him:

Clyde Drexler and Anfernee Hardaway did well against him too. Pooh Richardson did well against him once also.

There are also people who have said negative things about him:

“I didn’t hear the comments. Let me tell you about what being great is. Ever hear of Elgin Baylor? Never mention his name, do we? Great basketball player. You know what you have today? Michael Jordan was a great player, but he won after Chicago got Pippen, Grant and those other players to go along with him, because for a while they couldn’t beat Detroit." - Oscar Robertson

“Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to ever play in the game, but I may go as far to say LeBron James is probably the greatest player to ever play the game. Not only can he score at will, but he keeps everybody involved. You have to be on your Ps and Qs because everybody is a threat to score when he’s on the floor. Not only that, LeBron James will dominate the game on the offensive end and he’s able to do it on the defensive end as well. He can get in those passing lanes and dominate the game.” - Scottie Pippen

"Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams…." - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

"Jordan lacked the skills to play point guard and didn't like playing with guards who played the classic point guard role." - Phil Jackson

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

Gebre,

I'm quite capable of conducting my own research, deciding my own criteria of greatness, and rendering my own conclusions. Evidently, you are not, for you have bought hook, line, and sinker into the NBA's media campaign to crown Jordan the greatest of all time and to dismiss as blasphemous heretics all those who have the temerity to disagree. Please forgive me--actually, please don't forgive me, for I'm not sorry--for refusing to drink the Kool-Aid.

I notice also that, like the man whose feet you kiss so profusely, you just cannot stand to lose this argument. Why is Michael Jordan's honor so sacrosanct that you have to ram your arguments down our throats just to defend it?

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

The opinions of the "experts"... You do realize that these are just as much opinions as my opinion that Jordan is NOT the greatest player of all time? What makes them uniquely qualified to have opinions such that all others are not?

You have stated your opinion. Why must you also work so hard to destroy the opinions of those who disagree?

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams…." - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

This is bogus. You can't compare basketball from the 90s to back in the 60s. The game changed considerably.

Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams…." - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

This is bogus. You can't compare basketball from the 90s to back in the 60s. The game changed considerably.

I do agree. IMO, the Number One reason why Wilt Chamberlain was the highest scoring player ever for the first half of his career and one of the best shot blockers and rebounders is that he stood a good 6 inches taller and was much bigger than about 90% of the players who tried to guard him. Nowadays, most everyone who plays his center position possesses at least the same height and close to the same size. If you were to match Wilt up against today's centers, I think his numbers would be more like those of Shaquille O'Neal. Put Shaq in Wilt's place and time, and I think you would see Shaq score 50 points per game for an entire season. That's why it's so near impossible to compare the two based on numbers alone.

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

Gebre,

I'm quite capable of conducting my own research, deciding my own criteria of greatness, and rendering my own conclusions. Evidently, you are not, for you have bought hook, line, and sinker into the NBA's media campaign to crown Jordan the greatest of all time and to dismiss as blasphemous heretics all those who have the temerity to disagree. Please forgive me--actually, please don't forgive me, for I'm not sorry--for refusing to drink the Kool-Aid.

I notice also that, like the man whose feet you kiss so profusely, you just cannot stand to lose this argument. Why is Michael Jordan's honor so sacrosanct that you have to ram your arguments down our throats just to defend it?

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

The opinions of the "experts"... You do realize that these are just as much opinions as my opinion that Jordan is NOT the greatest player of all time? What makes them uniquely qualified to have opinions such that all others are not?

You have stated your opinion. Why must you also work so hard to destroy the opinions of those who disagree?

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

Gebre,

I'm quite capable of conducting my own research, deciding my own criteria of greatness, and rendering my own conclusions. Evidently, you are not, for you have bought hook, line, and sinker into the NBA's media campaign to crown Jordan the greatest of all time and to dismiss as blasphemous heretics all those who have the temerity to disagree. Please forgive me--actually, please don't forgive me, for I'm not sorry--for refusing to drink the Kool-Aid.

I notice also that, like the man whose feet you kiss so profusely, you just cannot stand to lose this argument. Why is Michael Jordan's honor so sacrosanct that you have to ram your arguments down our throats just to defend it?

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

The opinions of the "experts"... You do realize that these are just as much opinions as my opinion that Jordan is NOT the greatest player of all time? What makes them uniquely qualified to have opinions such that all others are not?

You have stated your opinion. Why must you also work so hard to destroy the opinions of those who disagree?

To you all....

Says the man who accused me of rubbing your nose into the carpet, took out your anger on my Ducks, and even harassed me with a name I don't like being called when LSU lost to Bama two weeks ago.

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

Gebre,

I'm quite capable of conducting my own research, deciding my own criteria of greatness, and rendering my own conclusions. Evidently, you are not, for you have bought hook, line, and sinker into the NBA's media campaign to crown Jordan the greatest of all time and to dismiss as blasphemous heretics all those who have the temerity to disagree. Please forgive me--actually, please don't forgive me, for I'm not sorry--for refusing to drink the Kool-Aid.

I notice also that, like the man whose feet you kiss so profusely, you just cannot stand to lose this argument. Why is Michael Jordan's honor so sacrosanct that you have to ram your arguments down our throats just to defend it?

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

The opinions of the "experts"... You do realize that these are just as much opinions as my opinion that Jordan is NOT the greatest player of all time? What makes them uniquely qualified to have opinions such that all others are not?

You have stated your opinion. Why must you also work so hard to destroy the opinions of those who disagree?

To you all....

Says the man who accused me of rubbing your nose into the carpet, took out your anger on my Ducks, and even harassed me with a name I don't like being called when LSU lost to Bama two weeks ago.

1) You did

2) Yes, and I was wrong

3) Giving you a nickname isn't harassing. It wasn't even insulting. I can think of a few better nicknames off the top of my head.

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

Gebre,

I'm quite capable of conducting my own research, deciding my own criteria of greatness, and rendering my own conclusions. Evidently, you are not, for you have bought hook, line, and sinker into the NBA's media campaign to crown Jordan the greatest of all time and to dismiss as blasphemous heretics all those who have the temerity to disagree. Please forgive me--actually, please don't forgive me, for I'm not sorry--for refusing to drink the Kool-Aid.

I notice also that, like the man whose feet you kiss so profusely, you just cannot stand to lose this argument. Why is Michael Jordan's honor so sacrosanct that you have to ram your arguments down our throats just to defend it?

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

The opinions of the "experts"... You do realize that these are just as much opinions as my opinion that Jordan is NOT the greatest player of all time? What makes them uniquely qualified to have opinions such that all others are not?

You have stated your opinion. Why must you also work so hard to destroy the opinions of those who disagree?

To you all....

Says the man who accused me of rubbing your nose into the carpet, took out your anger on my Ducks, and even harassed me with a name I don't like being called when LSU lost to Bama two weeks ago.

1) You did

You do realize that that's merely how you interpreted my comments? Before you accuse me of gloating, maybe you should ask to find out if that's really what I was doing.

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

Gebre,

I'm quite capable of conducting my own research, deciding my own criteria of greatness, and rendering my own conclusions. Evidently, you are not, for you have bought hook, line, and sinker into the NBA's media campaign to crown Jordan the greatest of all time and to dismiss as blasphemous heretics all those who have the temerity to disagree. Please forgive me--actually, please don't forgive me, for I'm not sorry--for refusing to drink the Kool-Aid.

I notice also that, like the man whose feet you kiss so profusely, you just cannot stand to lose this argument. Why is Michael Jordan's honor so sacrosanct that you have to ram your arguments down our throats just to defend it?

As for whether or not Jordan was the best ever, don't take my word for it; listen to those who actually coached him and played against him: (But I'm sure that some of you know more about basketball than Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. )

The opinions of the "experts"... You do realize that these are just as much opinions as my opinion that Jordan is NOT the greatest player of all time? What makes them uniquely qualified to have opinions such that all others are not?

You have stated your opinion. Why must you also work so hard to destroy the opinions of those who disagree?

To you all....

Says the man who accused me of rubbing your nose into the carpet, took out your anger on my Ducks, and even harassed me with a name I don't like being called when LSU lost to Bama two weeks ago.

1) You did

You do realize that that's merely how you interpreted my comments? Before you accuse me of gloating, maybe you should ask to find out if that's really what I was doing.

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams…." - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

This is bogus. You can't compare basketball from the 90s to back in the 60s. The game changed considerably.

I do agree. IMO, the Number One reason why Wilt Chamberlain was the highest scoring player ever for the first half of his career and one of the best shot blockers and rebounders is that he stood a good 6 inches taller and was much bigger than about 90% of the players who tried to guard him. Nowadays, most everyone who plays his center position possesses at least the same height and close to the same size. If you were to match Wilt up against today's centers, I think his numbers would be more like those of Shaquille O'Neal. Put Shaq in Wilt's place and time, and I think you would see Shaq score 50 points per game for an entire season. That's why it's so near impossible to compare the two based on numbers alone.

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams…." - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

This is bogus. You can't compare basketball from the 90s to back in the 60s. The game changed considerably.

I do agree. IMO, the Number One reason why Wilt Chamberlain was the highest scoring player ever for the first half of his career and one of the best shot blockers and rebounders is that he stood a good 6 inches taller and was much bigger than about 90% of the players who tried to guard him. Nowadays, most everyone who plays his center position possesses at least the same height and close to the same size. If you were to match Wilt up against today's centers, I think his numbers would be more like those of Shaquille O'Neal. Put Shaq in Wilt's place and time, and I think you would see Shaq score 50 points per game for an entire season. That's why it's so near impossible to compare the two based on numbers alone.

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams…." - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

This is bogus. You can't compare basketball from the 90s to back in the 60s. The game changed considerably.

I do agree. IMO, the Number One reason why Wilt Chamberlain was the highest scoring player ever for the first half of his career and one of the best shot blockers and rebounders is that he stood a good 6 inches taller and was much bigger than about 90% of the players who tried to guard him. Nowadays, most everyone who plays his center position possesses at least the same height and close to the same size. If you were to match Wilt up against today's centers, I think his numbers would be more like those of Shaquille O'Neal. Put Shaq in Wilt's place and time, and I think you would see Shaq score 50 points per game for an entire season. That's why it's so near impossible to compare the two based on numbers alone.

Another point of similarity between Wilt and Shaq: defensive strategy employed against them. The Hack-a-Shaq tactics that teams used so often to keep Shaq from scoring against them were also used extensively against Wilt Chamberlain, since both players shot no better than about 50% from the free throw line for their careers.

I was going to respond to Gebre's trashy response, but TheMathematician beat me to it. Gebre: Your response is ripe with hypocrisy, bias, and arrogance. When one wants to compare players of different eras, one must do so on equal footing, which you're not doing; otherwise, you're either guilty of lazy history, or stacking the deck. It's like arguing that there may have never been a better player on Naismith's team than Jordan because he can dunk; it overlooks the fact that if you wish to compare apples-to-apples, you'd have to either have Naismith's players get trained in modern basketball, or have Jordan grow up with Naismith's version of the game (no dribbling, peach-basket hoop, no backboard at first, 1 point per basket, etc.). There are semi-objective ways of determining this, but any analysis of one player against others of a different era has inherent subjective elements that cannot be dismissed - therefore rendering any argument of, "There's no doubt he's the best ever" ridiculous. "Anyone who truly knows the game of basketball" - give me a break. How have you factored in the addition of the 3-pointer, changes to the charge and block rules, the addition of the 3- and 5-second rules, etc. into your analysis? YOU HAVEN'T! Put Wilt in the same development track as Jordan, and we may very well have never heard of the UNC kid.

I really do think anyone whose position is, "Michael Jordan is the best ever, no question about it, there's no reason to debate it" crowd is really just a victim of excellent marketing from Nike et al., period. Come back to the discussion forum when you're ready to engage in a real discussion.

Father Bless,

I am not Priest, so I realize that do not deserve the same respectful treatment that you do. However, I am your Orthodox Christian brother, and I do have feelings. I am a bit saddened that you would refer to my post about Michael Jordan as "trashy." As much as I disagree with you on this topic, I still would not call your views "trashy" simply because they disagreed with my own.

I have made my arguments by stating the facts and offering my unvarnished opinion about the matter. But there is no way to persuade those who do not have open minds. When you argue from the premise that players of a different era would have been as great or greater than Jordan if they had played in his day and age, then that is as biased of an argument as can be manufactured. There is simply no foundation to support such a claim. It is speculative at best.

Father, I also find in a bit hypocritical of you to chastise those of us who are arguing that Jordan is the greatest as being unreasonable and not worthy of participating is this debate. It's quite clear that you are emphatically opposed to the idea that Jordan is the greatest, and you dismiss those of us who disagree with you as not having a "real discussion."

As I said before Father, I truly mean no disrespect. I would like to hear more of your views on the subject.

Selam

Clearly you've never participated in sports trash talk around the water cooler.

In fact, I'm pretty certain that you've never played sports on a competative level at all.

And clearly you'd be wrong. I played on the sixth grade basketball team in middle school and the freshman baseball team in high school, and I've played a number of pickup games in both sports. I do know something about competing in sports.

I can assure you that if you exhibited your petulant behavior on the basketball playground in my neighborhood, then you would have learned your lesson by now.

Pot, meet kettle.

No hypocrisy from me here Peter. You're the one who insults me publicly, rebukes me for calling someone a coward and then turns around and calls someone else a coward, and then blocks my PM's to you. That kind of cheap, childish behavior would not be tolerated where I come from. Maybe out in Oregon you can get away with that, but here in the hood you would've had your behind kicked a long time ago for acting like that (not that I would by any means condone it). So you know what you can do with your pot and kettle brother.

Selam

Logged

"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +