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This perceived threat b.s. training has to stop. It's just turned into an excuse to shoot first ask questions later. What are these cops, figgin Jedi ? 'I perceive a disturbance in the Force - better shoot now'

Yes yes there are tons of great cops doing great work, unheralded an unsung every day.

But this stuff is becoming too common to ignore as 'few bad apples' SOmething is wrong with the training and the mindset being taught to cops in some departments nowadays it seems.

Totally agree. My best friend is 20+ year veteran with Vegas swat. He does the swat training and firearm training for new hires. He says the trend of overly
Aggressive hires with a chip on their shoulder is way too common.

They're hiring those guys on purpose. I don't think it used to be this way, but it's real now.

I believe that screening procedures and hiring practices are not 'off the cuff' - especially for large departments. These are not mistakes.

__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

They're hiring those guys on purpose. I don't think it used to be this way, but it's real now.

I believe that screening procedures and hiring practices are not 'off the cuff' - especially for large departments. These are not mistakes.

There is some of that I'm certain and to a degree, it's always been that way throughout the history of Law Enforcement going back into the early 19th century

It remained rather static up through the close of the Vietnam War era
Years ago young Men did a stint as MPs in the service busting heads, got out and became Local LE, that's what our Armed Forces had trained them as
When the Draft ended so did the steady flow of pre qualified applicants, that in turn resulted in 18 month Degree programs at the Community College & AVTI level
By the 80s minimum height & weight standards started to vanish due to suits by wimmins groups, PT standards changed as well to accomedate the weaker Sex

Part of the result was by the 90s you started seeing a completely different kind of man behind the Badge, some were real pathetic examples of our gender.

Talking with a few LEOs one thing they mention as being a factor with current hires is how many of them are Ex Mil, serious number of deployed Combat Vets
Sure, mostly great folks but they spent their time in the military trained to a far different mission than even a MP

I have brought up how many young LEOs are all inked up today
What I didn't ever mention is quite a bit of that was done while they were pounding ground in the Sand Box
Anyways had a few younger LE mention that some of their peers have a military Combat mindset that's embedded hard, tends to kick in easily

At the County and Local level here, it's probably 7 out of 10 Officers that are post 911 Combat Vets. Most are laid back but there are a few that think they are still on the Street in Fajulla
They had one that used to sling up his M16 "Patrol Rifle" every time he pulled a car over, massive complaints put an immediate end to that over the top behavior

They're hiring those guys on purpose. I don't think it used to be this way, but it's real now.

I believe that screening procedures and hiring practices are not 'off the cuff' - especially for large departments. These are not mistakes.

I call the Amber Geiger incident a horrible accident.

This one was, simply put, murder.

A hothead with a badge. Locally, they’ve been becoming more and more common.
I had a run in with one during a traffic stop three years ago, and it was tense.
My rig was on my waist, my SKS was behind the seat against the back wall of the cab, my wallet with all my I’d was on top of the instrument panel, and my hands were glued 10 and 2 on the wheel.
The very first thing I always announce, every single time, is to announce that I’m armed and where it is, so it sure seemed like flattop moron boy did his absolute best to make me pull my hands off the wheel.

As for this hotshot murderer, I hope they move quickly and, assuming the facts match what we’ve been told so far, show him zero mercy.

I have a great many long time Professional Career Policemen who are very, very close friends of mine. My heart aches for them because they take the heat, right in their faces. The nature of their jobs mean it can’t be left at work, they carry it around with them, 24/7.
Which is exactly hy these agencies need to hire the right people. Good soldiers don’t always make good cops. Personally, I’d have made a very bad cop. There was a time in my 20s after I got out of the Army where my way of dealing with lawbreakers was to want to light them up. No patience, no understanding, no willingness to listen, just light em up and let God soft em out.
It took a few years, but one tends to grow out of the military tendency to fix all problems with superior firepower.

I can’t help thinking those newbs coming in might have a similar mentality I had.

They're hiring those guys on purpose. I don't think it used to be this way, but it's real now.

I believe that screening procedures and hiring practices are not 'off the cuff' - especially for large departments. These are not mistakes.

My agency and former agency aren't hiring "overly aggressive" people; if anything, it's the opposite with many of them being afraid to be aggressive at all. I'm a field training officer these days and many of the rookies coming through are more tentative than was the norm some years ago. I'm not saying its a bad thing but when they are unsure about when they need to be forceful, then it can get them and others hurt.

As for this incident? Well, the OP is clearly full of shit as he states the cop entered the home which he never did. Intimates the cop couldn't have seen the gun which, according to Tak was on a table and the female who was shot never had in her hand which I have no idea how he came to that conclusion as unless he has ESP, he wasn't there and didn't see what the cop did.

From the video, I don't know why the coppers didn't knock on the door and announce their presence. If they arrived on scene and the door looked like it had been kicked in or the house looked ransacked, I can see looking around for bad guys but I wasn't there and I don't know their motivation. It certainly is a fact that newer coppers are keener to find bad guys and may, unlike older, more mature or seasoned officers, fail to look for alternative reasons why doors are open in the middle of the night. Perhaps this was the issue; younger/newer cop sees door open when neighbor says door is never open = burglary in progress. Older cop might think homeowner might have let dog out/might be looking for lost kitty/may be expecting drunk significant other home and left door open for them/homeowner's AC might be out and they are trying to get cool air in or anyone of a number of potential options.

Again, I don't know, neither does anyone else posting in this thread but it sure isn't stopping anyone accusing the cop of murder which is a huge stretch. "Perceiving a threat" is the same kind of standard used for citizen use of force applications in that the citizen or officer must be able to articulate exactly what threat they perceived, what motivated them to use deadly force and then that decision gets to be reviewed multiple times by those with ALL the facts, not just uninformed anonymous posters on a firearms forum. If the cop did something unlawful, they will be charged and tried in court. These aren't the old days of shooting someone, then tossing a gun or knife next to them with the excuses that went with it.

Nope, these are the days of bodycams, police review boards, prosecutors willing to try police officers if they did something unlawful and meaningful sentences if found guilty. I can think of several cases in the last couple of years where cops who unlawfully used deadly force have gone to jail for it. All of which is as it should be.

__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville

My agency and former agency aren't hiring "overly aggressive" people; if anything, it's the opposite with many of them being afraid to be aggressive at all. I'm a field training officer these days and many of the rookies coming through are more tentative than was the norm some years ago. I'm not saying its a bad thing but when they are unsure about when they need to be forceful, then it can get them and others hurt.

As for this incident? Well, the OP is clearly full of shit as he states the cop entered the home which he never did. Intimates the cop couldn't have seen the gun which, according to Tak was on a table and the female who was shot never had in her hand which I have no idea how he came to that conclusion as unless he has ESP, he wasn't there and didn't see what the cop did.

From the video, I don't know why the coppers didn't knock on the door and announce their presence. If they arrived on scene and the door looked like it had been kicked in or the house looked ransacked, I can see looking around for bad guys but I wasn't there and I don't know their motivation. It certainly is a fact that newer coppers are keener to find bad guys and may, unlike older, more mature or seasoned officers, fail to look for alternative reasons why doors are open in the middle of the night. Perhaps this was the issue; younger/newer cop sees door open when neighbor says door is never open = burglary in progress. Older cop might think homeowner might have let dog out/might be looking for lost kitty/may be expecting drunk significant other home and left door open for them/homeowner's AC might be out and they are trying to get cool air in or anyone of a number of potential options.

Again, I don't know, neither does anyone else posting in this thread but it sure isn't stopping anyone accusing the cop of murder which is a huge stretch. "Perceiving a threat" is the same kind of standard used for citizen use of force applications in that the citizen or officer must be able to articulate exactly what threat they perceived, what motivated them to use deadly force and then that decision gets to be reviewed multiple times by those with ALL the facts, not just uninformed anonymous posters on a firearms forum. If the cop did something unlawful, they will be charged and tried in court. These aren't the old days of shooting someone, then tossing a gun or knife next to them with the excuses that went with it.

Nope, these are the days of bodycams, police review boards, prosecutors willing to try police officers if they did something unlawful and meaningful sentences if found guilty. I can think of several cases in the last couple of years where cops who unlawfully used deadly force have gone to jail for it. All of which is as it should be.

Failing to identify himself as a LEO, screaming unlawful orders, and then murdering a innocent person is just a little too much....
Citizens will not tolerate this anymore. You LEO types may want to rethink your training and start using good judgment before something bad happens.

except that article is all about another white cop shoots black citizen.

In neither case is the race of either cop or fellow citizen relevant. People trying to make it so, is a problem.

In both cases, it appears to be a "bad shoot", but in neither case is the motivation for the shoot demonstrated to be racially motivated. In both cases, it appears to me, to be from extremely poor and tragic judgement. I'm not just not getting "white cop shoots black citizen". I'm getting "Cop makes poor judgement, and shoots fellow citizen."

Would either case be different if both the cop and the citizen were the same race? I think not. Although with the female cop and the black neighbor, I have always suspected there was more to it than mistaken apartment complex floor. Perhaps there was a relationship? Pure speculation. It just "feels" like there is an underlying conflict.

Not a direct correlation, but there was a time at a mall parking lot, that I returned to my Nissan pickup and put the key in the lock, unlocked my truck, got in, and saw a purse on the passenger seat. That doesn't belong here, thought I. And this is not my beautiful car . (Talking heads, same as it ever was). But my key fit, which it should not have. And my vehicle was another 10 cars down. Same make, same model, same year, same key approximately same location. Whoops! Which makes the female cop's story at least plausible. But it has always "felt" wrong to me.

except that article is all about another white cop shoots black citizen.

In neither case is the race of either cop or fellow citizen relevant. People trying to make it so, is a problem.

In both cases, it appears to be a "bad shoot", but in neither case is the motivation for the shoot demonstrated to be racially motivated. In both cases, it appears to me, to be from extremely poor and tragic judgement. I'm not just not getting "white cop shoots black citizen". I'm getting "Cop makes poor judgement, and shoots fellow citizen."

Would either case be different if both the cop and the citizen were the same race? I think not. Although with the female cop and the black neighbor, I have always suspected there was more to it than mistaken apartment complex floor. Perhaps there was a relationship? Pure speculation. It just "feels" like there is an underlying conflict.

Not a direct correlation, but there was a time at a mall parking lot, that I returned to my Nissan pickup and put the key in the lock, unlocked my truck, got in, and saw a purse on the passenger seat. That doesn't belong here, thought I. And this is not my beautiful car . (Talking heads, same as it ever was). But my key fit, which it should not have. And my vehicle was another 10 cars down. Same make, same model, same year, same key approximately same location. Woops! Which makes the female cop's story at least plausible. But it has always "felt" wrong to me.

I never mentioned anything about race. I suspect just about every news article regarding this incident is going to mention the race of the shooter and victim.
My point being: "You LEO types may want to rethink your training and start using good judgment before something bad happens".

About seven years ago I was having lunch with a friend of mine who was a police trainer for a large southern metropolitan police academy. Afterwords he asked if I wanted to help him run his cadets through some training scenarios. Having nothing better to do that afternoon I said yes.

I was to act as a "suspicious person" in a darkened "warehouse". The first set of cadets come up on me as I was trying to open the outside door. They did their thing and completed the training iteration. The next incident stands out quite clearly.

I was at the door to the "warehouse" when the next couple of cadets appeared. I saw them and ran into the darkened building. I immediately hid behind a door. The two cadets enter the building and turned on their flashlights. They begin searching. Eventually they come to the door I was hiding behind. The first cadet pulls the door away from me and without a word or warning goes "BANG. BANG."

I HAD JUST BEEN "SHOT".
POINT BLANK.
HIGH CENTER CHEST.
END OF STORY.

Things to note:

1. I was unarmed.
2. I made no threatening moves towards the cadets.
3. I was a white male about 5' 3", 210 lbs. and ~ 40 years of age, with blond hair cut in a high and tight flattop.

I wish I had hammed it up about being shot, but quite frankly I was so surprised I didn't know what to do. Also, I am fairly certain that had the two shots been real they would have killed me instantly.

I know that after the training event my friend used this as a educational opportunity, and made note of it in the cadet's training record. I only hope that the cadet learned from this experience and became a better officer because of it.

I tell this story not to attack police officers or police departments. To me is comes down to one thing: TRAINING.

It is not solely about race, bad departments, or bad people with a badge. Though clearly those factors have impacts on some situations. As I read through the article I posted above it appears that this was a young officer with limited on the job experience:

"Kraus identified the officer who shot Jefferson, 28, as Dean, who was hired by the policeforce in August 2017 and was commissioned as a licensed peace officer on April 13, 2018."

When people are under stress they can make poor decisions. The best way to minimize this is through:

1. Education.
2. Training.
3. Practice.

In my mind it is not about any one factor. It is a tragic combination of many:

1. Poor training.
2. Lack of experience.
3. Poor situational awareness.
4. The flood of adrenaline that occurs under stress.
5. Inability to respond appropriately due to the adrenaline.
6. A greater desire for self preservation than for serving the community.

I realize that Item 6 will be controversial for some. But, I believe it is inherent in many of these officer involved shootings. Police officers take on a greater authority, and the tools necessary, to preserve order and serve the community. With that authority and tools comes a much greater responsibility to society. Inherent in that responsibility is a greater acceptance of the risks that come with it. As Uncle Ben said, "With great power comes great responsibility." This responsibility requires the officer to consider the situation and act appropriately; not react in the heat of the moment and with limited knowledge.

Some will choose to hide behind the respect most of society gives police officers and say, "Its a difficult job. You just don't understand." This doesn't cut it. These men and women chose this profession. They chose it knowing (or at least should know) all the benefits, and CHALLENGES that come with it.

I don't know for certain what the failures in this instance, and similar situations, are. However, clearly something is wrong and needs to be corrected. Otherwise Atatiana "Tay" Jefferson would not be dead.

The body cam footage I looked at had a scene that looked like a home invasion.
there was stuff everywhere and it appeared the front door was wide open. It’s the middle of the night and all the lights are on....looks like a crime scene. Why did her neighbor call for cops if he wasn’t afraid there was a bad guy was in the house? Who did he think would come by? A nurse?

Unfortunately we may never know what the cop was thinking...or why he shot her
but the reality is he’s white and she’s black. As we move forward in life it will become even harder for blacks because just like the metoo stupidity has taught us not getting involved is safer..

__________________
"Owning a Firearm doesn't make you Armed any more than owning a Guitar makes you a Musician"

My agency and former agency aren't hiring "overly aggressive" people; if anything, it's the opposite with many of them being afraid to be aggressive at all. I'm a field training officer these days and many of the rookies coming through are more tentative than was the norm some years ago. I'm not saying its a bad thing but when they are unsure about when they need to be forceful, then it can get them and others hurt.

As for this incident? Well, the OP is clearly full of shit as he states the cop entered the home which he never did. .

At 1:29 in the video, the officer pushes open a door and enters part of the residence. It's hard to tell if it's a connecting hallway or room between the garage and the main part of the house or the garage. Either way, it's PART OF THE HOME. My Garage is part of my home/residence last time I checked. Pretty sure the Court would agree too. So too would a breeze way or covered porch be PART of the Home.

So I guess that makes you full of shit, right? I'll gladly accept your retraction or apology, though. We all make mistakes, right?

Put your hands up, show me your hands bang. Yep, that's going to cost FW a pile of money. Door is not technically open as there are storm doors on each entrance. Their methods of casing the place are not much different than a burglar and if they had gotten their ass smoked, it would have been justifiable.

__________________
If you're looking for someone loyal, get a dog. Otherwise you're not going to find it.

Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.

My agency and former agency aren't hiring "overly aggressive" people; if anything, it's the opposite with many of them being afraid to be aggressive at all. I'm a field training officer these days and many of the rookies coming through are more tentative than was the norm some years ago. I'm not saying its a bad thing but when they are unsure about when they need to be forceful, then it can get them and others hurt...

George -

I'm glad that your agency is getting it right - both with hiring people who aren't overly aggressive, and in hiring you as an FTO.

I've got an acquaintance that is a police officer in a not-small-but-not-metro-sized police department in the Intermountain West. City/town of 90,000 or so. Greater area is 250,000.

He had juve trouble as a kid. Hurt some people (didn't kill anyone...). Ran drugs. Probably ran other things like stolen goods including weapons.

Joined army. Got sorted out. Came out a hard-working person who obeyed the law and minded his Ps and Qs. Ran his own construction business. 2008 real estate downturn = he's okay, but he's going to put in for local PD job. Application good. Interview good. Psych evaluation = did NOT exactly answer all the questions as straightforwardly as possible.

Fast forward nine months. Time for follow up interviews and second psych evaluation. He's freaked out because he can't remember which answers (read: lies...) he gave last time. Says he knows he's 'out'.

Nope - he's in. He's hard working, strong, aggressive. If you are in a fight for your life, you want this guy on your team. But he also has a strong case of both Don't Cross Me and I'll Tell You What I Think You Want/Need To Hear. You know what I mean.

No one can tell me that psych evaluations are 'random' or 'unreliable' or 'unimportant' - otherwise we wouldn't be spending the resources. I think some agencies are looking for malleable/plastic morality opportunities. You know - loyalty to the Agency over every other consideration: keeps the right kind of people in the right kind of line.

I also know that this isn't true everywhere. Meanwhile, the Spartans, Regulators, Reapers, Vikings, and Banditos aren't accidental. What, Higher Up and HR didn't know this was happening for the last, say 25 years?

Okay, forget Los Angeles - for a variety of reasons. A few years ago, almost an entire PRECINCT in Philly was arrested for running girls, drugs, and guns. Just a competing gang.

Pretty sure this is a known issue. Pretty sure that there are some good departments out there. Pretty sure that there are a bunch which are "average" or middle-of-the-distribution. Also sure that there are some bad ones out there.

They don't get people to join those outfits by accident.

__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

Her nephew has come forward in the latest news report to say they were playing video cames (at 2:30AM) when she heard noises in the backyard and went to the window with her gun at the ready.

So basically you are in your house and here someone prowling around at 2 dark thirty and you have gun in your hand, it's ok to get shot down like a dog? They did not announce themselves as they should have once they came on the porch. Damn I need fence and a gate on the front. Them playing some cat and mouse game for a bad guy was pretty stupid. You got a gun in your hand on your own property and get executed. Yeah, screw that shit in Texas. Hands up drop the gun bang is fuking murder in this state. Sumbiches are on private property and don't say shit when they showed up.

__________________
If you're looking for someone loyal, get a dog. Otherwise you're not going to find it.

Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.

Surely then, if there is a crime - you call the police, if there's an injury without a crime you call an ambulance - perhaps the police will come along as well, maybe even the fire dept.!
But if you are calling about the 'welfare' of someone, and you are a neighbour - wouldn't you just pop around and simply ask - why even call the Police?? Or are you a real neighbour? Sad state of affairs!
I know there are a lot of low IQ types out there - which brings me back to the whole moniker of America's appallingly low educative standards - if you source from trouble, you will get trouble! Yep, and this low educative level also exacerbates a poor adult training quotient — as it assumes a certain level of competency to augment with special training in the first place! Garbage in garbage out (results will vary)!
Education will solve 'all' our problems - 'rational', well educated People tend to be conservative in nature,( and water will find it's own level, in any hierarchy ) - not right wing but conservative!
We need smarter better policemen, better students, better politicians, better corporations, better everything....... better People! At least, striving for quality!(and not celebrity.)

So that checking on another's 'welfare' isn't just another mindless 'Statist' event, that went wrong because of a systemic failing!

If we really properly educate the kids(from 18 months upwards), so they become smarter than the parents( the difficulty is, doing so - of course, and way beyond Montessori/Waldorf), then we can all stand on the shoulders of our forefathers - and really reach the stars!( yeah I know thats fluffy).

It takes years to cultivate a successful cherry producing tree - but only minutes to fell it! - ? The point being any change is always generationally long, often 2 or more! The rot has to be educated out, not by force or the legislature but by manners, reason and consideration - then the hobnailed boot becomes obsolescent!
In any event, there is always time to think - at what speed can you think, and why are some, quicker than others - education and genetics? - phenotype/genotype!
Some people should never be given a badge, beyond the BoyScout award for turning up! Remove the incompetents, before someone else gets hurt!

__________________
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled!" -- Mark Twain

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." -- Voltaire

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression... There is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such a twilight that we must be most aware of change in the air -- however slight -- lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court Justice from 1939-1975

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -- Krishnamurti

One lady got killed by a police man the other night,,,may have been a tragic mistake,,poor training,,,bad luck,,,officer may have been,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,etc.

Meanwhile,,,340,000,000 other people that night,,,did not get shot by a policeman in their home by ??? mistake,,,whatever,,,,,nor the next night or last night,,most likely not tonight or tomorrow night.

We've got what,,,,,,400,000 or 500,000 armed police of some type walking around in this country at any given time of day and night????

Accidents,,,just plain bad shit, will occur from time to time.

Our police are armed,,our citizens are armed,,our crooks and criminals are armed,,surprised we don;t have more shootings than we do,,,with a population of 340,000,000

This lady like the other person,,,was killed by police in their own homes,,,how many people did the police in this country save between those two shooting?

With this many people,,,mostly armed,,,bad shit just happens from time to time.

__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

One lady got killed by a police man the other night,,,may have been a tragic mistake,,poor training,,,bad luck,,,officer may have been,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,etc.

Meanwhile,,,340,000,000 other people that night,,,did not get shot by a policeman in their home by ??? mistake,,,whatever,,,,,nor the next night or last night,,most likely not tonight or tomorrow night.

We've got what,,,,,,400,000 or 500,000 armed police of some type walking around in this country at any given time of day and night????

Accidents,,,just plain bad shit, will occur from time to time.

Our police are armed,,our citizens are armed,,our crooks and criminals are armed,,surprised we don;t have more shootings than we do,,,with a population of 340,000,000

This lady like the other person,,,was killed by police in their own homes,,,how many people did the police in this country save between those two shooting?

With this many people,,,mostly armed,,,bad shit just happens from time to time.

Horseshit I say from Wilson Co Texas.

I read a lot of John Whitehead and don't agree with all but this is where he's spot on. These guys got a real call for some outlaws to break the monotony of shaking people down on the roads.

__________________
If you're looking for someone loyal, get a dog. Otherwise you're not going to find it.

Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.

That is true YH - one night some one got shot! Many more committed suicide by similar means is also true - mere pennies in the fountain. But the point is stupid people shouldn't be given a badge, so that the media can saturate the airwaves with drivel about thematic shootings by the criminal police, which in of itself feeds the radicle left etc... but it happens and it seems popular fodder. By unbiasing and proper education - within 2 generations this stuff would be decidedly less in its commonality. I like that Cherry Tree, and I think you do really, as well. But it won't be a tree unless it is planted - Johnny Appleseed!

__________________
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled!" -- Mark Twain

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." -- Voltaire

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression... There is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such a twilight that we must be most aware of change in the air -- however slight -- lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court Justice from 1939-1975

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -- Krishnamurti

Melt,,,,,,,,,any group of people are going to have shitheads within their ranks.

Locate them,,,deal with them.

No one in this country would want to live in this country without police officers!

I lived and worked in several countries without police officers,,,,,not good for anyone.

Horseshit I say. You and I have the privilege of a long driveway. Most people don't. I aspire to the 80/20 rule as far as good cops bad cops. They are collecting fees 80% of the time. Nottingham over and over. You wanna bet they were going to charge the family for the ambulance before rot roh?

__________________
If you're looking for someone loyal, get a dog. Otherwise you're not going to find it.

Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.

At 1:29 in the video, the officer pushes open a door and enters part of the residence. It's hard to tell if it's a connecting hallway or room between the garage and the main part of the house or the garage. Either way, it's PART OF THE HOME. My Garage is part of my home/residence last time I checked. Pretty sure the Court would agree too. So too would a breeze way or covered porch be PART of the Home.

So I guess that makes you full of shit, right? I'll gladly accept your retraction or apology, though. We all make mistakes, right?

Bollocks. There is the residence and then the curtilage of same. He entered the back gate into the garden. That ain't the home, not in fact, in common understanding or the law. You can't burgle a garden numb nuts, only a home. Ergo, he did NOT enter the HOME.

__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville

Gettin' harder and harder to serve the public, ain't it?
(I can't really believe these things really happened, honestly. All those "good" cops would turn in a cop for doing that)

Body cams are awesome. Pretty much show that 95% of the complaints by the public are utterly and completely unfounded. And yes, I would turn in a dirty, abusive and corrupt cop in a heartbeat. No question. However, I work in one area in a decent agency with broad public support where corruption isn't tolerated at all. My agency, in cooperation with the FBI and others did exactly what you say we should:

Bollocks. There is the residence and then the curtilage of same. He entered the back gate into the garden. That ain't the home, not in fact, in common understanding or the law. You can't burgle a garden numb nuts, only a home. Ergo, he did NOT enter the HOME.

Hmm. You are approaching zero credibility with me GMAN. You walk your ass up to my house and start shining a light, well shit it needs to be game on if you can shoot me through a window and just meh shit happens. People are getting tired of shit happens with LEO and the princes they serve. After 9/11 this shit went into overdrive for 1st responders getting a pass for the hero status and strapping on military equipment.

__________________
If you're looking for someone loyal, get a dog. Otherwise you're not going to find it.

Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.

Hmm. You are approaching zero credibility with me GMAN. You walk your ass up to my house and start shining a light, well shit it needs to be game on if you can shoot me through a window and just meh shit happens. People are getting tired of shit happens with LEO and the princes they serve. After 9/11 this shit went into overdrive for 1st responders getting a pass for the hero status and strapping on military equipment.

Except that if you shoot someone for shining a light in your window and can't demonstrate a legitimate fear for your life ( and, no, the light won't cut it ), you're going to be meeting some nice expensive legal types. The cop is apparently going upon murder charges, and so would you in your example.

Understanding that in recent years a lot of over the top training and hiring aggressive personalities has caused a lot of these kinds of problems, I still think most all of the LEOs in my AO are pretty decent types. That doesn't mean we shouldn't address concerns raised by shootings such as this, of course.

__________________
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools" Herbert Spenser

“I respect the government only in the sense that I respect any other dangerous predator who views me as food.”

“The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.” Robert E. Lee

One lady got killed by a police man the other night,,,may have been a tragic mistake,,poor training,,,bad luck,,,officer may have been,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,etc.

Meanwhile,,,340,000,000 other people that night,,,did not get shot by a policeman in their home by ??? mistake,,,whatever,,,,,nor the next night or last night,,most likely not tonight or tomorrow night.

We've got what,,,,,,400,000 or 500,000 armed police of some type walking around in this country at any given time of day and night????

Accidents,,,just plain bad shit, will occur from time to time.

Our police are armed,,our citizens are armed,,our crooks and criminals are armed,,surprised we don;t have more shootings than we do,,,with a population of 340,000,000

This lady like the other person,,,was killed by police in their own homes,,,how many people did the police in this country save between those two shooting?

With this many people,,,mostly armed,,,bad shit just happens from time to time.

I would venture to say that the police don’t really save that many people in this country at all. I know that’s the narrative the people like to believe but the fact is when you need a cop there never around and when they are around they usually make things worse.

In their defense they have to be experts in literally everything and no matter what they do They will have someone saying they did something wrong.

Still that’s the job that they signed up for. We’ve created a culture where they are un accountable for their actions.

For every police officer that’s tried and convicted of a bad shoot there’s 100 more they get away with it.

Of course there’s gonna be mistakes. In my opinion we don’t pay the police enough for what they do. Still, We have become a police nation which is a problem .

Again, I don't know, neither does anyone else posting in this thread but it sure isn't stopping anyone accusing the cop of murder which is a huge stretch....

I'm with gman here....we weren't there. Looks like there will be a trial now. On the surface it looks like a bad shoot but I'm going to hold off judgement and see what shakes out in the investigation and trial. We just don't have all the facts...and we may never have all of them.

If it was a bad cop/bad shoot he needs to be raked over the coals. I thoroughly support our peace officers but feel that violation of the public trust is one of the most heinous crimes there is....

__________________
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker at Lexington Green

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”
― G.K. Chesterton, The Ballad of the White Horse

I'm glad that your agency is getting it right - both with hiring people who aren't overly aggressive, and in hiring you as an FTO.

I've got an acquaintance that is a police officer in a not-small-but-not-metro-sized police department in the Intermountain West. City/town of 90,000 or so. Greater area is 250,000.

He had juve trouble as a kid. Hurt some people (didn't kill anyone...). Ran drugs. Probably ran other things like stolen goods including weapons.

Joined army. Got sorted out. Came out a hard-working person who obeyed the law and minded his Ps and Qs. Ran his own construction business. 2008 real estate downturn = he's okay, but he's going to put in for local PD job. Application good. Interview good. Psych evaluation = did NOT exactly answer all the questions as straightforwardly as possible.

Fast forward nine months. Time for follow up interviews and second psych evaluation. He's freaked out because he can't remember which answers (read: lies...) he gave last time. Says he knows he's 'out'.

Nope - he's in. He's hard working, strong, aggressive. If you are in a fight for your life, you want this guy on your team. But he also has a strong case of both Don't Cross Me and I'll Tell You What I Think You Want/Need To Hear. You know what I mean.

No one can tell me that psych evaluations are 'random' or 'unreliable' or 'unimportant' - otherwise we wouldn't be spending the resources. I think some agencies are looking for malleable/plastic morality opportunities. You know - loyalty to the Agency over every other consideration: keeps the right kind of people in the right kind of line.

Pretty sure this is a known issue. Pretty sure that there are some good departments out there. Pretty sure that there are a bunch which are "average" or middle-of-the-distribution. Also sure that there are some bad ones out there.

They don't get people to join those outfits by accident.

Agreed, which is why we’re that much more blessed by the George’s of this world. Guys who do the job for all the right reasons.

Agreed, which is why we’re that much more blessed by the George’s of this world. Guys who do the job for all the right reasons.

Gman sounds like a great guy, and LEO. I can understand his position on most topics he posts on. I think this shooting is the result of a lack of training and/or a LEO who just screwed up. It looks like a bad shoot to me, the LEO did not identify himself, making his orders unlawful and he did not give his victim a chance to respond.

Her nephew has come forward in the latest news report to say they were playing video cames (at 2:30AM) when she heard noises in the backyard and went to the window with her gun at the ready.

IF this is true it really changes nothing. Cops show up, unannounced, NO lights going...didn't we JUST see this in North Carolina or Virgina? Cops shoots the homeowner through the fugging window during a fuggin 'welfare check'?

No lights. No Announcements. No knock on the door. Nothing. I guess the only thing that saved the cop was the homeowner was not a trigger happy cop.

Again - I have great respect overall for the LEO profession. But this is just bullchit.

Roll up lurking about opening doors at my house 2am in the dark yep I may have a gun too. Guess I better just keep the FAL next the bed and shoot first ask questions later, right?

you don't fuggin check anyone's WELFARE by sneaking up in the dark of night unannounced on someones property or going into their property. Then killing them. This chit HAS to stop

One lady got killed by a police man the other night,,,may have been a tragic mistake,,poor training,,,bad luck,,,officer may have been,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,etc.

Meanwhile,,,340,000,000 other people that night,,,did not get shot by a policeman in their home by ??? mistake,,,whatever,,,,,nor the next night or last night,,most likely not tonight or tomorrow night.

We've got what,,,,,,400,000 or 500,000 armed police of some type walking around in this country at any given time of day and night????

Accidents,,,just plain bad shit, will occur from time to time.

Our police are armed,,our citizens are armed,,our crooks and criminals are armed,,surprised we don;t have more shootings than we do,,,with a population of 340,000,000

This lady like the other person,,,was killed by police in their own homes,,,how many people did the police in this country save between those two shooting?

With this many people,,,mostly armed,,,bad shit just happens from time to time.

Man that's all true but this just isn't bad shit, its horribly horribly wrong and someone was killed for zero reason and it was entirely easily avoidable.

This isn't an innocent bystander shot and killed during a police shootout at a mall during an active murder rampage. That's bad shit. This incident isn't that kind of just bad luck. This was a clown with no business wearing a badge following some jackshit department procedure (or perhaps breaking some procedure?) sneaking up into someone's property/residence and killing them for no reason.

Bollocks. There is the residence and then the curtilage of same. He entered the back gate into the garden. That ain't the home, not in fact, in common understanding or the law. You can't burgle a garden numb nuts, only a home. Ergo, he did NOT enter the HOME.

I never saw a garden with a door and walls and a roof, unless you call a greenhouse a garden?

He opened a door and went into part of the residence in the video. Seriously, how do you not see that?

Bollocks. There is the residence and then the curtilage of same. He entered the back gate into the garden. That ain't the home, not in fact, in common understanding or the law. You can't burgle a garden numb nuts, only a home. Ergo, he did NOT enter the HOME.

Man that's all true but this just isn't bad shit, its horribly horribly wrong and someone was killed for zero reason and it was entirely easily avoidable.

This isn't an innocent bystander shot and killed during a police shootout at a mall during an active murder rampage. That's bad shit. This incident isn't that kind of just bad luck. This was a clown with no business wearing a badge following some jackshit department procedure (or perhaps breaking some procedure?) sneaking up into someone's property/residence and killing them for no reason.

I had a lot of bad shit happens days when people around me got killed,,,just my choice of words,,,for bad shit/dead people happening.

This shooting is going to be looked at from all sides and directions by everyone and their brother,,,some truth of what happen will emerge.

None of us know,,, if this officer was a "clown" with no business wearing a uniform or the rest of your comment.
All we know,,,,a lady is dead,,and a police officer shot her.
An investigation into the shooting is underway,,or even criminal charges,,are now being conducted with the officer involved.
That's all we can apply here with what little we all know.

And most of this comes from the damned press.

Remember not that long ago,,,,the "hands up don;t shoot" shit,,,that officer was to be hung as well,,,,,,even members of congress,,,said,,guilty,,,oh wait,,,,hand up don;t shoot never happened,,,officer was innocent.

Some folks around here sound like that Ferguson bunch,,,and that ain't a complement!

__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

Hmm. You are approaching zero credibility with me GMAN. You walk your ass up to my house and start shining a light, well shit it needs to be game on if you can shoot me through a window and just meh shit happens. People are getting tired of shit happens with LEO and the princes they serve. After 9/11 this shit went into overdrive for 1st responders getting a pass for the hero status and strapping on military equipment.

Color me bothered by your opinion, not. I NEVER said the guy was justified for firing through a window. He's been charged, resigned and his worthless, politically motivated chief has tossed him under the bus by referring him to the DOJ/FBI for "civil rights violations" whatever the fcuk that means.

__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville

At 1:29 in the video, the officer pushes open a door and enters part of the residence....

I did not see that.

At 1:25 the officer opens a gate to what appears to be the backyard.

At 1:27 he has entered the backyard.

At 1:29 he is has just oriented himself towards the home. You can see what appears to be a portion of an AC compressor in the top left corner of the video. As the officer repositions himself the compressor is brought into frame with it being clearly visible at 1:32. I do not know of any AC compressors installed inside of a home.

Between 1:31 and 1:35 the officer orients on the window and yells commands through a closed window at an unknown person.

At 1:29 he is has just oriented himself towards the home. You can see the what appears to be a portion of an AC compressor in the top left corner of the video. As the officer repositions himself the compressor is brought into frame with it being clearly visible at 1:32. I do not know of any AC compressors installed inside of a home.

Between 1:31 and 1:35 the officer orients on the window and yells commands through a closed window at an unknown person.

At 1:36 the first shot is fired.

Buddy Lee

Thanks Buddy Lee, watching it for a fourth time I see exactly what you describe.

my apologies for misreading the video at that section. I think the on/off of the flashlight made it look like a door opening to that structure he was right in front of.

So did not enter the residence, but did come deep on to the property, no lights, no knock on the door, no announcement, and killed someone lawfully residing in their own home.

I stand by my comments this guy had no business being a cop base on his actions. Also if this is how the department trains its people to approach and act in this situation, they should also be brought up on charges.

Essentially a 'welfare check' now seems to just turn into a SWATTING and homeowners are getting shot and killed.

A FALaholic friend of mine who joined the NOPD as soon as he got back from Vietnam and out of the Marines said the NOPD used to be more selective with their recruits but told me "Now they have plenty criminals with badges".

From the reports on this Forum, Noo'Awlins isn't the only place with this problem.

...you don't fuggin check anyone's WELFARE by sneaking up in the dark of night unannounced on someones property or going into their property. Then killing them. This chit HAS to stop

This.

__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

Gman & I got into this belief in the necessity of Police before, no need to rehash all that. Some realities though. I do not live in town, if I hit 911 it might be over a half hour before the Cleanup Crew first responds, often times ambulance arrives well before Police up here

For most of Man's history the concept of a civil guardia didn't exist
Rome had a form of it but really for the most part the People policed themselves into the early 19th century.

London established the 1st regular Police force in like the early 1800s
New York & Boston wanting to prove how progressive they were quickly followed suit

Prior to that we had Federal Marshals, some Counties had Sheriffs and some communities, Constables. Then there were folks hired to light street lamps given Night Sticks, yeah that's where the term came from. Local lamp lighters armed with clubs.
Something to bear in mind is when Policing started in America nobody wanted that job. Back then it was seen extremely poorly as a "profession" throughout society. This is where the Irish came into it in NYC and Boston. Few would hire the Irish, nobody wanted to be Police so the Irish it was out East.

They walked a "Beat" in a chosen neighborhood, "Beat" referring to the Club, the Night Stick they were armed with to keep the streets safe for Gentleman & Ladies
This is also when the first weapons bans started afoot out east
Prohibitions against anything concealable which were, well endorsed by early Law Enforcement.

I'm not against Policing one bit
In town they have six full time Officers. That's a community of roughly 1500 and any given time at least two are driving around in that tiny community, often three. That's just insane
On top of that there are County, State & Federal Officers
not uncommon for me to head to the grocery store & pass by LE ten times, every two or three blocks in the communities' limits

Oh' most all are super decent Joes & Janes, we are just completely over policed, always have been.
Couple years back some drunk crashed into a neighbors home, abandoned their car...must have been close to 20 Officers milling about like a scene from Alices Resturant being the biggest thing to happen for weeks, well maybe months.
Couple three were in my yard with flash lights, went outside...they wanted in my sheds and garage. I was like Uh NO. We all checked making sure everything was locked up, no break ins but frankly I didn't appreciate they attitude I received from one young chubby bullethead.
He actually demanded I unlock it all so he could "Clear" my property, idiot wanted in my home too.
I handled that with the Sheriff the following day

Gman brought up an important concept...curtilage
LE are really not generally allowed to play Peeping Tom without overwhelming exigent circumstance like a 911 contact
Welfare check calls really don't allow Barney with a badge to play window peeper but some indeed do

This shooter was within the curtilage of the home looking in windows
we know that
Past that we know little else, I'm not going to comment much outside of that
my view is they should have pounded on the front door, the wall and been yelling at the top of their lungs, not playing pretend Prowler within the curtilage of the residence
but I don't know the neighborhood either