Proposition 8- Cali law against gay marriage lifted

Recently,a US judge has overturned the Californian gay marriage ban also known as Proposition 8.

Proposition 8 seems to be based on the belief that same sex couples simply are not as good as opposite sex couples. This belief may be naturally true,but it is not clear whether the authors of proposition 8 made their decision based on the biological natures of both genders or only on moral disapproval of Homo Sexuality.But assuming their decision is more of a moral question, I am beginning to wonder if this worldview is a proper basis on which to repudiate the will of some members of the community.

Here is what I mean; much of the opposition to opening the institution of gay marriage comes from those who profess godlines or to be religious. These people also believe that we are created in the likeness and image of God and with FREE WILL to choose what is wrong or right.They also understand that we are all equal in the sight of God.But what if one is HS by nature (could be possible) just as one is male or female ; black or white-? When the church vehemently opposes same sex union and denies a gay person access to religious sacraments, is that not messing with humans free will that was granted to them by God? I think, the church’s role should be to teach what is right and what constitutes grave sin rather than impose its moral authority or will on others.

If we are all equal before God and He has given us free will to choose , why does the church discriminate and say 'either or else'? In principle ,I am against Gay practice and marriage, but I am discovering, I have no right to deny them their human rights as creatures of God.Do I sound stupid?

Comments

All sexual activity outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is sin. This is how God made us and asks us to live. Free will is not found in choosing sin. To choose sin is to be in bondage. Christ, our Lord and Saviour had free will. He chose always to do the will of the Father.

There is a difference between allowing that non-Christians may wish to exercise societal freedoms in a non-Christian manner, and providing a certain tolerance of this freedom - though it is a rather an enslavement - and agreeing with those who wish to establish a non-Christian and un-Godly social order. This means, as far as I can see, that what two people get up to in private is their private business, but in the public and social realm the Church must speak out for the truth and resist evil. As part of society we must insist that God's message be heard. There is no freedom in sin. To choose to sin is NOT the exercise of free will. It is the exercise of a deformed and diseased will.

How can there be a human right to homosexual marriage when marriage itself is defined as being between a man and a woman? There are no rights. This is in itself a creation of a godless society. There are no rights, but we do have responsibilities and duties towards each other. If a society chooses to allow such sinful unions then it will be judged, indeed it will already have judged itself. But the Church must continue to speak out.

First there is allowed some legal union, then it is insisted that it must be called marriage, then any Church which refuses to conduct such unions will be penalised - in the name of fairness and human rights.

There is no human right to sin. There is no homosexual by nature. There is only a giving in to temptations of various sorts. If I eat too much I do not say, well it is my human nature, I can't help being a glutton. No, I am guilty of every sinful choice I make. Likewise if a person is tempted and falls before homosexual OR heterosexual temptations, he or she cannot say 'it is how God made me'.

WE ARE NOT BORN SINNERS.

We become sinners by choosing to sin. And all homosexual acts (NOT TEMPTATIONS) are sin.

The Church can never and should never cease from calling people to holiness and insisting that sin is never a freedom, but always an enslavement.

To deny that there could ever be such a thing as homosexual marriage is not the same as persecuting and prosecuting those who engage in homosexual acts. It is NOT a matter of 'human rights'. It is rather a matter of the evil one seeking to corrupt even those things which remain a potential for holiness and faithfulness in our godless society.

Proposition 8, as far as I understand it, says nothing about the value of a person who engages in homosexual acts, it simply denies that two persons of the same gender can be married. This is what God teaches us. It is what every religion around the world teaches us. We would not (yet) suggest that it was denying a person their human rights if they could not marry their daughter, or a pet dog. Yet once we deny that God has anything to say to the world all manner of evil is possible.

All homosexual acts are sin. All heterosexual acts outside of marriage are sin. Both of these, if not repented of, incur a separatiom from the eucharist because if a person has not repented of sin then they will be harmed by approaching the altar unworthily. If we say that a person doesn't think that homosexual acts are sin then we set each one of us as judge of ourselves and ignore the word of God who is the true judge of all.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=9624.msg118580#msg118580 date=1282773015]But what if one is HS by nature (could be possible) just as one is male or female ; black or white-? When the church vehemently opposes same sex union and denies a gay person access to religious sacraments, is that not messing with humans free will that was granted to them by God?

That is incorrect. No one is born homosexual. It's not like being male or female/black or white. It is not something we have no control over; homosexuality is a learned behavior. God did not create us this way (or else it wouldn't be a sin.. think about it.. would he have destroyed sodom and gomorrah if homosexuality was natural? or would this verse exist: "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them" (Lev 20:13)) The Bible tells us that no homosexuals will enter the kingdom of God in 1 Cor 6:9-10. Clearly God does NOT support this act! God granted us free will, does that mean we're allowed to do with our bodies as we please? (1 Cor 6:12)

I'm no doctor, but I know that there is no scientific evidence to support ones sexual orientation from genetics. So you can't say 'so and so was born this way', the reality is that homosexuals begin at such a young age (unfortunately) that they are convinced its their 'nature'.

despite whether it called marriage or a union isnt the blessing on the altar what we are concerned about preserving? not some paper that the government recognizes and calls it marriage, or union.

i feel that this is an issue- where we are representing Christianity- where we must be very careful. our brothers have unfortunately given us a reputation of being bigots, extremely judgmental, and a self righteous people. what really irritates me- aside from the judging and the hateful manner some people have been using- is we are using christian arguments on non christians to "protect a sacrament" despite the fact it is taking place outside the church. how will this is any way encourage anyone to consider christianity. what happened to "hate the sin love the sinner"?

i feel like this issue is a way to take time away from more useful things because whatever the gov. says our view of marriage stays the same. shouldnt we rather be spreading the word instead of focusing what the gov says which genders it will recognize in a union.

This kind of stuff leads to moral relativism. If we accept homosexual's belief that they are "born gay" then we open the door for organizations like NAMBLA to jump on board and say they also were born pedophiles. Until 1974 homosexuality was treated as a mental disorder, they were probably right. I think some people are perverted at a young age, some by pornography. Either way it is unacceptable.

The argument that because you sin then you cannot tell me that my sin is bad, is stupid, no offense, but I am tired of hearing it. There are many things I cannot stand in this world but two of the main ones are homosexuality and Sarah Silverman.

Our Lord was tempted and did not sin. Temptation is not sin. The Fathers teach us that we cannot stop the birds flying around the tree but we can stop them nesting. We fall into sin not when we are tempted and not when we wrestle against the suggestion being presented to us, but when we consent to such ideas and take pleasure in them.

Eve did not sin because Satan tempted her but because she consented to the temptation. It is the same with us. If we cry out when under assault - Lord have mercy - then the temptation is not sin. If we linger over the temptation with pleasure we have sinned.

[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9624.msg118603#msg118603 date=1282814434]Our Lord was tempted and did not sin. Temptation is not sin. The Fathers teach us that we cannot stop the birds flying around the tree but we can stop them nesting. We fall into sin not when we are tempted and not when we wrestle against the suggestion being presented to us, but when we consent to such ideas and take pleasure in them.

Eve did not sin because Satan tempted her but because she consented to the temptation. It is the same with us. If we cry out when under assault - Lord have mercy - then the temptation is not sin. If we linger over the temptation with pleasure we have sinned.

This is really annoying. All those serving or teaching in the EYC are useless. They are not Coptic Orthodox. They are just kids who like protestant songs - and have enough favour with Anba Angaelos to be allowed to teach everyone this stuff.

There is NOT one EYC that involved ONE Coptic Orthodox hymn. NOT ONE!! Its all "Kumbaya me Lud" and happy clappy stuff for silly teenagers.

I hate this!

What kind of stuff do the youth there talk about??

Here are a few things I can imagine being said in one of these conferences:

"Hi, my name is Makarious, I love Coptic girls from Sweden.. you're so cool"

"We all sing the tasbeha whilst having a rope tied around our legs and we swing upside down.. its so cool.. our abouna is just amazing - he let's us do that, but we cannot clap, because we're not supposed to use any other musical instruments other than the cymbals".

"Ohhh my God! Anba Angaelos is SOO cool.. he's got a Sony Vaio, an Apple Mac, an Apple Macbook, an IPAD, a remote controlled BMW with Turbo ignition - with an iPhone, an iPod Touch, a USB dongle, a facebook account, 10 mobile phones, he's got these bishop basketball shoes with the little red crosses that light up everytime he scores a goal... OH HE's SOOO AMAZING!! HOW DOES HE DO IT!!!! He's a SAINT!!!!!!!!"

"Oh did you hear the sermon from Anba Angaelos about "Time" - He's soooooooo amazing. Time is a 4 letter word that starts with "T" and ends in IME!"" That's SOOO DEEP!! ! I wish I recorded his sermon. I never figured that out before!!!"

[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9624.msg118612#msg118612 date=1282827760][quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9624.msg118609#msg118609 date=1282825735]I guess I could have gone but I'd have been a bit at a loose end as I would not have had anything to do.

That's not right. It really isn't. I'm astonished even that H.G. is not asking married priests to serve in such events.

What is the topic/theme about this year??

Regardless of the theme - those that served in the EYC a few years ago were just kids, and all we sang was protestant songs. ALL DAY!!!

Anyway, we all know its just an excuse for boys and girls to meet and exchange phone numbers so that they can get married. How it works is this:

EYC: Marriage Selection System - Phase I

Phase II - Select Partner

Phase III - Church Organizes trips to other countries and you meet your selected partner again

Phase IV - A Coptic Orthodox Australian comes along and marries all the European Coptic girls.

can we stay on topic lol??? i thought california was a strong anti-homo state?

[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=9624.msg118586#msg118586 date=1282787336][quote author=TITL link=topic=9624.msg118583#msg118583 date=1282783093]I'm no doctor, but I know that there is no scientific evidence to support ones sexual orientation from genetics.

There is no scientific evidence to support genetic predisposition; however, people do have hormonal imbalances and homosexuality may be a result of that.

Homosexuality is not a result of hormonal imbalances. It just means a guy isn't as masculine as he should be, same with a girl. Nothing wrong with that! So what if they found a trend between hormonal imbalances and homosexuals? Means nothing without scientific evidence. God did not create certain humans with imbalances aka sin aka homosexuals, then condemn them in the Bible."Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, NOR HOMOSEXUALS, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 6:9-10).

[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9624.msg118622#msg118622 date=1282835655]CopticUser, California is not "anti-homo" I mean the gayest place on earth is in Cali, San Fran

Apparently, the gayest place is in Sydney - Australia.

Belgium is becoming really gay also.

I don't understand these gays. How can anyone not find a woman attractive??

I think these gay people hang around western women, they have to check out mediteranean women - it could help. Also, there's this doctor who is curing people who are gay. He's not even a Christian. He's jewish!

Yea I dont get homo's. Have they ever seen a Coptic woman or Habesha woman? Justifying homosexuality is no different than justifying any other sin. They would rather justify it as opposed to fight against it simply because they desire to be homosexual but they dont want to go to hell so they make up all kinds of weird stuff.

I debated with a homo once, he asserted that God created homo's, then I gave him scripture to prove him wrong. He just outright denied not just the scripture but the person who said it. Basically anything that was against his homo ways he rejected. So I asked about Sodom and Gomorrah. He claimed that it was not as a result of homosexuality at all, that it had nothing to do with it. He claimed that it was because they did not invite people into their homes, which was custom at the time, so God got upset about that. That would mean God is a lunatic. Kill, rape, steal, do the same sex...fine, thats no problem, dont invite a stranger into your home? HELLFIRE!

I dont like homosexuality, but when a person fully embraces it, they spit in the face of God and I truly dislike them as people.

Thank you for the nice sermon. I loved it. I want to make sure that you do not understand me wrongly. I am in no way condoning Homosexual activity in the society. Only the thought of it is very tiring and disgusting to me. I also know that it is abominalble in the sight of God. Here is an excerpt of what I wrote a while ago in similar topic and I will always stand by it.

"the ungodly is defining marriage as 'alternative lifestyle' or a 'common-law relationship'.They use such politically correct terms to deceive the gullible and naive.Political correctness is employed to make the evil appear harmless and is actually one of the greatest evils that is out there these days.It has distorted things beyond recognition and the world has become sick and twisted. People would not know the truth if it hit them in the face. Now,God does not call Fornication and living together outside of marriage an "alternative lifestyle"- He calls it SIN.God is not politically correct.God calls it as He sees it. Sin is sin and evil is evil. The Lord does not mess around with words.He calls things what they really are.As a matter of fact, here is what God says about political correctness, "woe to those who call evil good and good evil',Isaiah 5:20."

Is HS really always a choice that one makes? I am not sure. Why would anyone willingly choose to be something that could cause them to be despised by community ,spurned by their families, or deny them rights ? There surely are those who choose such a life style after bad experiences in their own lives, but also there are those who simply can not help it being that way. I am not sure ,if HS behaviour is a disorder that is acquired or natural? If you observe ( and TITL), it is not natural, how do we then explain such rampant behaviours among animals? There is evidence that shows that HS is widespread amongst birds and mammals, and the primates. Scientific studies have found African giraffes to engage in high frequencies of homosexual behaviour. They also found that male gorillas and apes court and couple with each other on regular basis. I remember reading news about a Zoo in Germany,in which endangered male Penguins failed to reproduce due to their strong HS behaviours. Infact,the Zoo separated the males to encouarge attraction to the females, but the experiment failed. So, if Homosexuality is widespread in nature, how come we say that it is unnatural?? In humans, it has been observed that if one twin is gay, chances for the second twin to be gay are as high as 50%, leading them to think that genetic factors (mutated or otherwise) might play a major role in sexual orientation.

However, my main question has to do with the free will that God granted us. We have a God given free will to choose the bad from the good or the good from the bad. We decide. I am not certain, but I think the idea of Human rights has its basis on Human free will.Thus,the two seem interrelated. If that is so, does not denying a human being their right to choose also amount to taking away their free will ? Does the church has the authority to take our free will away and force us not to sin or should its role be to tell us not to sin? If these Churchs in the US are oppsoing gay marriage because it offends God,why had they failed to condemn slavery and dicrimnation in the past? Like HS, slavery and discrimination are as sinful. Does'nt this entire situation reeks of hypocrisy on their part?

Lets say homosexuality is natural. People cannot help it, it's in their gene or whatever. Why then would God condemn them? Why would it be, like you said, "abominable in the sight of God"? Would He accuse someone for something they cannot change? It doesn't make sense.

"Why would anyone willingly choose to be something that could cause them to be despised by community..etc"

They are CONVINCED that it is their nature. People who are homosexual don't agree that it is a choice, or else they wouldn't choose that lifestyle. Who would?The thought starts at a young age, and they grow up thinking they were born this way.

Analogy: My mom tells me a story that when I was 6 yrs old, I microwaved a cat. (whatever) I don't recall microwaving a cat, but I tell this story over and over and over to everyone I meet. Years pass by, the story still lives. A few years later I tell the story to someone in front of my mom, she tells me "no I made up that story, its not true!" and I say, "of course its true, I REMEMBER IT!!" I am convinced that I remember microwaving a cat, because the thought is always occupying my mind. I tell it to many people. Years pass by, and the story is among many of my conversations. Reality is, I convinced myself (unintentionally) that I remember the incident. Simple psychology ;)

I don't understand this behavior among animals; I have never heard of it frankly. I'll do research on that and get back to you ;)

You only have to read the Fathers to see that they often spoke out against slavery.

And I think that you are mistaking the fact that people can become such habitual sinners that they never even think of choosing the good with the thought that they have no choice. Everyone has a choice not to sin. It is just not true that a person MUST give into homosexual temptation. Is this what we should say to young people? You have no self-control so just engage in whatever animal desires you wish? God forbid. Everyone ALWAYS has a choice. Yet we very often allow sin to become habitual so that without grace we will not choose the good.

Who is saying that people should not be allowed to practice homosexual acts? I have not? I have said that the Church should always speak out against such and name them for what they are - SIN. But the Church does not go into non-Christian people's bedrooms. Just as it does not stand outside a liquor store with banners.

I believe that it is a mistake to listen to those who compare our intolerance of sin with slavery and racism. A person cannot choose his skin colour, but a person can ALWAYS choose not to sin. If a person cannot choose not to sin then we cannot condemn anyone for anything. What if someone has a strong desire to commit sexual acts with his daughter? Must this be allowed because he cannot say no to himself?

Let me say it again, free will does not mean being able to choose sin it means being able to choose God's will. A person who chooses to sin is not exercising free will he is manifesting his bondage to Satan.

There are very many homosexual who entirely choose to practice homosexual acts with no reluctance at all and launch themselves into all manner of depravity. There are others who live quiet lives with a male sexual partner with no sense of doing anything wrong. These people all WANT to practice homosexual acts. Just as there are millions who WANT to get drunk and have promiscuous heterosexual relations. We do not say that the latter is fine because it is someone's choice? Nor do we have unlimited drinking in our society. Society has made a choice that alcohol should not be purchased by those under 21 in the US. Why is society able to limit one behaviour for the wider good of society but should not limit the public manifestation of homosexual practice for the same good of wider society?

Why can you not drive at 200 mph if you choose to exercise your 'free will' in that way? Why can you not buy and sell heroin? Why can you not run naked up and down Main Street? Because society creates rules that govern how people can balance their choices for good and bad without destroying society. The Church, as a part of society, has a duty to speak out with the voice of God. If society ignores that voice then it will be judged, but the Church should not be silent just because others disagree. To be silent is to colude in sin.

The issue of human rights has nothing at all to do with free will. It is a godless socialist construction. It is not Christian. The Bible never speaks of our rights, it only speaks of our duties and responsibilities. We have a duty to care for the poor, but the poor do not have a right to demand money from the better off. We have a duty to free our slaves, but slaves do not have a right to demand their freedom. We have a duty to treat our children with love and care, but a child does not have the right to demand an Xbox or a car, even if his/her friend has one.

Look at who makes money from 'human rights'? Here in the UK the only people who benefit are lawyers and those dangerous criminals, terrorists and extremists whom we cannot expel from our country because of their 'human rights'.

A few doors down from me live a pleasant homosexual couple. No-one bothers them as far as I can see. I greet them in the street. No-one is throwing bricks through their windows, and I do not wish to know what they do in the privacy of their house. I wish them well and I wish them light and life. But that does not mean that I believe that my children should be taught at age 10, as they are, that homosexual practice is normal and can even be experimented with. I do not want the senior positions in government populated by a clique of homosexuals who ensure that every single TV programme features several homosexuals flaunting their lifestyle choice. And I do not want the universal and historical and necessary institution of marriage between a man and a woman subverted by homosexuals with their own agenda.

None of this means I wish any ill to the homosexuals I know.

Their choice is certainly a lifestyle choice. Every person who posts on here about various sins, even when they are habitual, knows that they NEED NOT sin. But somewhere inside them they are choosing, and their habit makes it harder, but never impossible, to say NO. Homosexual behaviour is no different to any other sin.

Why don't we see Glutton Pride parades? Indeed in the US and increasingly in the UK, we do see a pride in gluttony and in morbid obesity. Is this sin and a choice, or is it some condition which can never be overcome and for which a person can never be blamed?

Why don't we see Drunken Pride parades? Well we do here in the UK where 40% of men drink more than is considered safe each week, and where each weekend the streets are indeed filled with drunken young people. Is this sin, and a choice, or again is it impossible for people to choose otherwise?

It DOES NOT MATTER if a person is tempted with homosexual thoughts. These are NOT SIN. But to give in to them is SIN, just as to give in to all temptation is sin. If we say that we have no possibility of choosing to be holy then we call God a liar who says, Be holy as I am holy.

You say, 'Let's say homosexuality is natural'. But it is not. Why would we say that? Is drunkenness natural? Is gluttony natural? Is promiscuity natural? This is not how God made us, and it is not how we were born. It is how we have been formed by our situation and by some genetic dispositions towards habitual behaviours, which is not always our fault, but whether or not we sin is ALWAYS ALWAYS our responsibility. Lots of people eat too much because of their environment and some genetic disposition. It may be hard to stop, but THEY are responsible for stopping and doing something about what they eat and how they eat. They may always crave food if they smell certain cooking, but that doesn't mean they are blameless if they indulge in gluttony.

We are ALWAYS responsible. Sin is ALWAYS sin. The Gospel is a word against sin and a word for holiness otherwise it is no Gospel at all. The Gospel must have an impact on society, and this means speaking out against sin in society.

Who abolished slavery in the UK years before the US? It was Christians. They did not say that slave owners needed to be able to exercise their freewill. They just said, as the Fathers had already said, this is SIN. We can compare homosexual practice with the practice of keeping slaves. Slavery and homosexual practice are both sin. The Church was right to speak out about the one and is right to speak out about the other.

No-one who cares for folk would want them to suffer the illness and disease associated with homosexual practices. It is not fit to be discussed. A man may well love another man with a true love and they might even be companions together. But to mistake brotherly affection for sexuality is already a sign of disfunctionality.

wow, i have so many thoughts about this.firstly, i like father peters answer. i especially liked the fact he said he was not going to write much as it was late. that's so like saint paul in hebrews 13:22. yes, the 13 chapters of the book of hebrews constitute a 'short letter'lol

about gay people, many gay people i met had really bad things happen to them in childhood. they responded to the trauma by not coping very well, this lead to abnormal emotions which made it easier for them to choose this kind of sin.this happens with other sins i know too, eg. i know someone who eats too much because as a child, the family was very poor and there was often not enough food to eat.God has an answer for all of us who sin and are emotionally damaged through life. He can heal, build and restore.medically i have seen no decent evidence that being gay is some physical or genetic thing that is part of the essential make-up of a person.

about the european youth conference, i think it's possible that some people go there for selfish motives and of course we can't guarantee that every speaker at every point is 100% submitted to the will of God, but i was quite disappointed to see the negative comments about it on this thread and also the other criticisms.sure we can have free speech, but we should also be polite and Godly in our opinions and that criticism was really too much.

i am genuinely not going to write any more as it is really late in our time zone! may God guide us.

[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=9624.msg118665#msg118665 date=1282914960]wasnt this country built on the foundation of christian principles???

Christianity is all about Freedom. Freedom to accept Christ, Freedom to reject Him. God, in Christianity, respects our freedom, and in return, we end up with a democratic system that respects everyone else's freedom. So the founding principles of America were based on Christianity. ([sarcasm]DEFINATELY NOT ISLAM![/sarcasm])

But what can you do if people are Free not to be believe in God? Christianity isn't about Social Control (like Islam) - its about having a relationship with your saviour.

The problem is not really whether the USA will allow gay marriages or not in California - the problem is the strength of the Church to forbid it.

What bothers me is that one day it will become illegal to teach your kids that gay marriages are wrong, and homosexuality is wrong. That could result in a hate crime.

In parrallel, Im glad also that despite my Christian background, I still feel the necessity to treat gays fairly. However, that doesn't mean that I condone what they do.

If two gay men wanted to rent your apartment - would you let it out to them? If you said "No" - and it was only due to the fact that you hated gays, you could be sued.

This issue is awful because it is a policy that directly forces us to lose our morals. I don't mind what gays do, but I should have the right to think, believe and teach my kids that homosexuality IS an abomination, and I fear that right now - I can't.