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Religion & Spirituality

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

View PhotoAssociated Press/Philadelphia Police Department - FILE - This undated photo combination provided by the Philadelphia Police Department shows Herbert and Catherine Schaible. The Philadelphia couple serving 10 …more PHILADELPHIA (AP) — A couple serving probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor could face new charges now that another son has died.Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith healing. They lost their 8-month-old son, Brandon, last week after he suffered from diarrhea and breathing problems for at least a week, and stopped eating. Four years ago, another son died from bacterial pneumonia.Prosecutors said Tuesday that a decision on charges will be made after they get the results of an autopsy.Catherine Schaible's attorney, Mythri Jayaraman, cautioned against a rush to judgment, and said the couple are good parents deeply distraught over the loss of another child."There are way more questions than answers at this point. We haven't seen the autopsy report. We don't know the cause of death of this child," Jayaraman told The Associated Press. "What we do know is Mr. and Mrs. Schaible are distraught, they are grieving, they are tremendously sad about the loss of their most recent baby."A man who answered the phone at a listing for Herbert Schaible declined to comment and hung up.A jury convicted the Schaibles of involuntary manslaughter in the January 2009 death of their 2-year-old son, Kent. The boy's symptoms had included coughing, congestion, crankiness and a loss of appetite. His parents said he was eating and drinking until the last day, and they had thought he was getting better.The Schaibles were sentenced to 10 years' probation.At a hearing Monday, a judge told the couple they had violated the terms of their probation, noting the Schaibles had told investigators that they prayed to God to make Brandon well instead of seeking medical attention."You did that once, and the consequences were tragic," Philadelphia Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said, according to the Philadelphia Daily News.Prosecutors on Monday sought to have the couple jailed, but Lerner permitted them to remain free because their seven other children had been placed in foster care."He feels they are a danger to their children — not to the community, but to their own children," Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore, who prosecuted the couple in 2010, said Tuesday.Herbert Schaible, 44, and his 43-year-old wife grew up in the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia and have served as teachers there. The church's website has a sermon titled "Healing — From God or Medicine?" that quotes Bible verses purportedly forbidding Christians from visiting doctors or taking medicine."It is a definite sin to trust in medical help and pills; and it is real faith to trust on the Name of Jesus for healing," says the message, from last May.A phone message left with the church on Tuesday was not immediately returned.The church's pastor said in 2010 that the couple had never received medical care themselves beyond the help of a lay midwife who attends home births.The Schaibles did take their children for medical checkups as required by their probation, according to Jayaraman, the defense attorney. Jayaraman said that Brandon was checked by a doctor when he was 10 days old, but she did not know whether the child had seen a doctor since."Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday. "Whether their religion had anything to do with the death of their baby, we don't know."___Rubinkam reported from northeast Pennsylvania.

When I read the commentary "Healing - From God or Medicine", it seemed to me they quoted a bunch of scriptures out of context FROM THE WHOLE to support a specific agenda. Paul praised the Bereans for searching the scriptures to see if what he said was so. We should do the same for anything pertaining to God, the bible, or any spiritual matters when it is coming from the mouth or pen of someone else. This includes pastors.This is why it is so important to know the Word of God and to be in actual fellowship with the Lord personally.

My personal belief is, we die when we are meant to, and conversely, we don't die when we aren't meant to. No doctor will change that fact. nterceding prayer on someone's behalf may change the expiration date, but only in rare cases in my opinion.

So I honestly feel that this child died when he was supposed to and how he was supposed to. All the repercussive effects of his death are all part of the divine plan. My opinion.

In other words: Let's say for the sake of argument, God has decided that this child is going to die on 4/17/2013. However, the family takes the child to the doctor beforehand, and the child is healed of whatever ailment he had. Great! Then, they roll him out of the hospital in his wheelchair on 4/17, and ... he gets run over by an ambulance.

I do believe in fate. And I do believe that the only thing that can change it is prayer, although it gets deeper because I also believe the prayer--and therefore the change of fate--was/is also fate.

Have fun wit dat.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

I would say that is somewhat of a valid theory for an adult, thinking we may all have a predestined day, we are going to die on. If you have that Idea you would never judge anyone for murdering you, because you would conclude that is the day God planned for you to die, if death is a predetermined fate, and it didn't matter. Doesn't sound so good that way.

I do not agree that in cases of extreme parental neglect like this, with an 8 month old baby, and a prior death several years ago, it meets your idea. It sounds like both of these children could have only had something manageable, but with the gross negligence of doing nothing, they died. AFter that many days of diarrhea, not eating, other serious complications set in that became critical for survival. Kidney and Renal failure all may have been avoidable.

greeney2 wrote:I would say that is somewhat of a valid theory for an adult, thinking we may all have a predestined day, we are going to die on. If you have that Idea you would never judge anyone for murdering you, because you would conclude that is the day God planned for you to die, if death is a predetermined fate, and it didn't matter. Doesn't sound so good that way.

It doesn't SOUND "good," but in my heart of hearts, yes I believe that everything that comes to pass, comes to pass with God's plan and by either His direct will, or His indirect will, i.e. He foresees it but does not take measures to stop it.

I mean, seriously. The bible teaches this. It tells us that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-foreknowing. That means that nothing comes to pass without His foreknowledge. And since God is all-powerful, that must mean that what comes to pass, He has allowed to come to pass.

Now we can illustrate the ugliest, most heinous, horrible things to ever occur and twist this to mean God desired these things to occur... but no, I see draw the line between foreknowledge and desire or direct action. If you think deeply about it, the worst, most disgusting thing ever to happen to mankind in all our history, was our fall from grace. God foresaw that and allowed it to happen, and enveloped it into His overall plan of salvation. No thing you could ever conjure up in your mind could ever be more sickening or destructive than mankind's fall.

I do not agree that in cases of extreme parental neglect like this, with an 8 month old baby, and a prior death several years ago, it meets your idea. It sounds like both of these children could have only had something manageable, but with the gross negligence of doing nothing, they died. AFter that many days of diarrhea, not eating, other serious complications set in that became critical for survival. Kidney and Renal failure all may have been avoidable.

Well I'm not suggesting that parents or anyone should toss their hands up in the air and give it all up to God, not taking any measures to comfort or heal those who are sick. But again I will say, this child's death -- and all the repercussive effects including our very conversation -- were foreseen by God and included in His infinitely complicated Master Plan.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

I guess with that logic, if the parents are lined up and shot for their negligence, it would be their day to go anyways, so it wouldn't matter? You going to say the Boston Marathon bombing didn't matter either, it was their day to die anyway?

Willie Wonka quotes..What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse? Why? Are you having fun? A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men. We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams

well said Bionic, could not have been more obvious the parents were sent all the signs in the form of symptoms of the boy, as well as a lesson learned with child #1 dying, and they still did what the man in the flood did. Makes any defense of these parents ridicules IMHO.

greeney2 wrote:I guess with that logic, if the parents are lined up and shot for their negligence, it would be their day to go anyways, so it wouldn't matter? You going to say the Boston Marathon bombing didn't matter either, it was their day to die anyway?

I don't understand how you could come away from what I said believing I think it doesn't matter.

As far as I know, you believe in the God of the bible. I argue that your (and my) God not only foresaw the child of the PA couple dying, and foresaw the events of Boston... but He didn't stop them from occurring even though He had the power to. If you can show me where I am wrong, I'll change my mind. My secondary point was, the child dying, the Boston bombings, and any other tragedy that ever has occurred or will occur, pales in comparison to humanity's fall from grace. The fall of mankind is the single event that triggered all this horrible stuff. God could have stopped that from happening too, but, He didn't. As hard as it is and as harsh as it seems to admit it to ourselves, the bible teaches us that God restrains Himself from preventing our sinful actions for us. It doesn't mean it's His fault. He doesn't commit the acts. All He does is incorporate them into His plan of redemption and turn them into something good. That good may not reveal itself for hundreds of years.

Those are my thoughts on it, anyway.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

Because this is the logic you are using, that God is all knowing and we are all predestined to die at a specific time. I may agree with that to some degree, however neither of us can really proove it can we? You example of the kid being saved only to wheel out and be struck by a car, at least absolves the parents, in that they did everything reasonable to save his life. You can not know if a bomb is going off at your feet, or a bus may roll down a hill, but you sure know when your child is sick, and know when you should seek medical help. My point is that if we all are destined to die even the 8 year old in Boston qualifies, and by that logic, does it matter what the form of death was? I'm not so sure I can understand any logic how God's plan strikes one family with a 8 year old dead, Mother with head injuries, and Sister with a leg blown off. If that is all predestined, who care about those 2 idiots that did it, they are immaterial to the predestined results.

Actually, if you believe in having free will, your moral compass and your fate and destiny in your own life, is in your own hands, but also within your hands are the fate of others by evil deeds and acts. The same Bible I think teaches we have this free will, and we are on our own, to find our destiny. We Pray so ourselves and others can find the way, the right way. 2 idiots in Boston found the wrong way, and their hands sealed an untimely fate of hundreds of others, just like these parents sealed the fate of 2 children untimely. Yes, you can argue death was predestined, but where do you draw that line? The total absence of any life saving measures beyond praying? Gets into a lot of philosophical debates, where if we are predestined, are things like the Death Penalty even wrong?

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