dnosco wrote:It is amazing to me how teams are lining up this year to draft players and making roster moves so they can be in a position to draft someone. I have never seen anything like this (i.e., teams releasing players on the verge of the Rule 5).

Let's hope this is not a blood bath for the Indians' minor league system.

I'm going to make my prediction as to who's taken: -

Brian Barton
Luis Perdomo

And that's it..... Perdomo will be back by spring training and Barton will probably be traded for by the drafting team.

So far, four picks down and no Barton...but there is STILL time and remember teams that pick in the first round can continue to pick in the second round so even if Barton makes it through the first round we are not safe with him OR any of the rest of our Rule 5 eligibles....unless the Indians cleared roster space this morning and draft one of their own players which HAS happened in the past at least once when the Braves did it.

Oops. Barton gone to the Cardinals who just released So Taguchi yesterday so they could have a spot on their roster to add someone. So, Luna two years ago and now Barton.

Indians pass...duh, they haven't picked a guy in the Rule 5 major league portion for more years than I can remember...but my memory is going.

Major league portion done. Indians lose Barton. Now on the minor league phases with Cody Bunkelman maybe finding a new home.

Last edited by dnosco on Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Protecting Toregas was horsepucky. If, as Consig told us, the Indians slot numbers of players at a position and protected Toregas partly because we had no other catchers in our upper levels then this makes it ten times worse. Losing Barton because you protected Toregas was a bonehead move. We all said it from the beginning and now it has happened. Is Barton gone? Probably unless he just totally stinks it up in ST.

Small market teams losing players good players in the Rule 5 draft is absolutely, positively stupid. Forget the 96 wins, we are a small market team. This is a result in large extent to signing Dellucci, re-signing Michaels and not cutting bait on certain guys.

You can't really protect Whitney or Perdomo. They are too far away from the majors. Imagine protecting Whitney and burning two of his options as he slowly works his way through AA in 2008 and AAA in 2009. The guy is maybe ML ready in 2010 and his options run out. Perdomo is even worse not having even pitched at high A. We could have but did not lose him but, if we had, like with Whitney, it is a gamble you have to take.

As was said somewhere, the Rule 5 is one aspect of player personnel moves that is TOTALLY on the FO. If you lose a guy and he turns out good it is on you.

And, remember, Barton was THE highest ranking prospect entering 2007 who was rule 5 eligible and left exposed for this draft. THAT alone should have been a no-brainer as to why to protect him.

Last edited by dnosco on Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Before the draft I had the feeling the organization was going to lose a few more players then it did, including Luis Perdomo (figured everyone would be wanting the next Bobby Jenks/ Joakim Soria and take flyers on relievers with live arms). In the end, I was thankfully mistaken.

All of that rehab, time and money flushed down the crapper because of this GM's infatuation with mediocre vets and backup catchers who can't hit

If MW goes on to blossom like Phillips-Guthrie then Shapiro needs to be canned If on the other hand Whitney turns out to be another Goleski than no damage done.

BTW wasn't Ben Francisco exposed in the rule V last year or the year before?

" No big stars on the team is by design. "We can't afford to have the inefficiencies, even for a great talent. We need to function as efficiently as possible in our clubhouse, and that means guys have to know what it means to be a good teammate. We don't want to waste the energy on dealing with all those distractions. Besides, we value character over talent here in Cleveland---Mark Shapiro

Why every year do we have post on post about how Player X or Player Y are going to bite the tribe in the ass...... weeks of angst and complaining about losing a player....... then before spring training is even over it all seems like wasted breath.

Yes, Whitney was selected.... it was a bit of a shocker that he was.... he's strictly a 1Bman, so unless the nats are trading him then they have no place for him...... if he's not an Indian come Oct 2008 then I'll bitch about him not being protected.

Barton we all expected to be picked, but I'm not as high on him as others - he's a 4th OFer in my eyes..... again will only be disappointed if he's not an Indian come Oct 2008.

redneckofsc wrote:What pisses me off so bad is that we lose Whitney and Barton, while we have loses on our roster like Dellucci and Michaels.

Atleast it isnt as bad as last year with Sirkorski and Nixon.

In addition to losing Whitney for these meatballs(Dellucci/Michaels) we also lost two high picks in the last draft for signing Dellucci and Grampa Roberto.

So the price for signing Dellucci was whatever his salary is , a high draft pick (2nd round i think) and a possible middle of the order righthanded mashing firstbaseman (Whitney)

Unbelievable

Damn!

Quick analysis:

Protecting Toregas was horsepucky. If, as Consig told us, the Indians slot numbers of players at a position and protected Toregas partly because we had no other catchers in our upper levels then this makes it ten times worse. Losing Barton because you protected Toregas was a bonehead move. We all said it from the beginning and now it has happened. Is Barton gone? Probably unless he just totally stinks it up in ST

Dennis,

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't we also lose a player to rule V or risk losing an unprotected prospect a few yrs ago for protecting a Toregas clone (Javier Herrera}

" No big stars on the team is by design. "We can't afford to have the inefficiencies, even for a great talent. We need to function as efficiently as possible in our clubhouse, and that means guys have to know what it means to be a good teammate. We don't want to waste the energy on dealing with all those distractions. Besides, we value character over talent here in Cleveland---Mark Shapiro

onlyindreams wrote:Keep in mind that while Shapiro sucks, the real reason we did not keep these players is because Dolan is cheep and needed the money.(Don't you get 25k when you lose players in the rule 5)

I figured the whining would stop when the winning came but I guess that's not the case. We should fire the executive of the year.

OID

$50K for losing a player.

Shapiro has been given a formal warning by Dolan for not leaving unprotected more MLB ready players. He needed at least 10 guys selected to justify a $0.5m increase in CC's '08 salary as part of his extension! (tongue firmly planted in cheek).

So the price for signing Dellucci was whatever his salary is , a high draft pick (2nd round i think) and a possible middle of the order righthanded mashing firstbaseman (Whitney)

That is not even all of it...that is what is so sad. You have to count the indirect cost. Who would have we gotten if we didnt have him? Would Choo have played, or would we have gone out and signed/traded for a real impact player instead of some stiff who had one good year in a hitters park, against all RH pitching.

Total Cost:

$11.5M
#37 and #107 picks in the draft
Whitney or Barton
The indirect loss of a better replacement

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Why every year do we have post on post about how Player X or Player Y are going to bite the tribe in the ass...... weeks of angst and complaining about losing a player....... then before spring training is even over it all seems like wasted breath.

Yes, Whitney was selected.... it was a bit of a shocker that he was.... he's strictly a 1Bman, so unless the nats are trading him then they have no place for him...... if he's not an Indian come Oct 2008 then I'll bitch about him not being protected.

Barton we all expected to be picked, but I'm not as high on him as others - he's a 4th OFer in my eyes..... again will only be disappointed if he's not an Indian come Oct 2008.

First, we are a small market team. Any time we lose an asset we lose substantially more than, say, the Yankees losing that same asset. We can't afford to lose any assets.

Second, let's just say our 40-man roster is full of prospects and so, maybe we don't have room for a Barton. Well, that's just what happens when you have a lot of prospects. We can debate whether it is better to trade those guys than risk losing them in the Rule 5. I vote yes but others vote no. Se we agree to disagree, fine.

However, what is stupid and inexcusable is to fill your roster with guys who shouldn't be protected and then lose even one prospect in the Rule 5 draft.

In my opinion Toregas is one of those players. Maybe Slocum, with his injury, is another. Heck, although there is overwehlming sentiment to not do it, even Lara is another.

To add more stupidity to it would be if the Indians, as Consig told us, slot players so that the include in their decision-making on structuring their 40-man roster whether they have too many outfielders and not enough catchers protected.

Hey, if they just think that Toregas will be a better major leaguer than Barton then protect Toregas. But, let's be clear. That IS the decision, especially since catchers are rarely selected in the Rule 5 major league portion.

Regarding our angst, yeah, fans overangst this draft. But, still, all you have to say is Willy Taveras and Hector Luna and who we protected in the years those guys were selected (Luna twice) and it makes you wonder if we are protecting the right guys. Sure, these guys are not world beaters but if you take Taveras, Luke Scott and Hector Luna together you could get a pretty decent major leaguer for them. THAT is using your assets appropriately.

But, yeah, people, let's not OVERangst on this. Brian Barton has an extrabase hit every 20 some ABs this past year. If you are a powerhitting outfielder and you are not doing close to 1 XBH in 10 ABs you are a punch and judy hitter. Now, his knee could have caused some of that (the Cardinals hope!). Time will tell.

Regarding Whitney, no way can you protect him. You essentially use up most or all of his options BEFORE he is major league ready THE FIRST TIME. Unless a miracle happens for Washington, Whitney comes back. Whitney, though a crushing loss (on the order of Brandon Phillips) if we lose him and he advances as expected, was a reasonable gamble to leave unprotected.

onlyindreams wrote:Keep in mind that while Shapiro sucks, the real reason we did not keep these players is because Dolan is cheep and needed the money.(Don't you get 25k when you lose players in the rule 5)

I figured the whining would stop when the winning came but I guess that's not the case. We should fire the executive of the year.

All kidding aside Dolan can't be too happy at the bonus money given to the likes of Jeremy Guthrie and Matt Whitney and then have his GM give them both away for nuthing.

Not calling Dolan cheep , never have but I gurantee that Detroit would have signed Tim Linecum if they had drafted him instead of the Tribe. The money given to Guthrie and his slow development may have deterred the Tribe from signing him.

I do see some parallels between Hart and Shapiro with losing draft picks at the expense of signing free agents. The difference is Harts free agent signings could play (Alomar-Jack Mcdowell) while Shapiros (Dellucci/Hernadez) couldn't.

" No big stars on the team is by design. "We can't afford to have the inefficiencies, even for a great talent. We need to function as efficiently as possible in our clubhouse, and that means guys have to know what it means to be a good teammate. We don't want to waste the energy on dealing with all those distractions. Besides, we value character over talent here in Cleveland---Mark Shapiro

onlyindreams wrote:Keep in mind that while Shapiro sucks, the real reason we did not keep these players is because Dolan is cheep and needed the money.(Don't you get 25k when you lose players in the rule 5)

I figured the whining would stop when the winning came but I guess that's not the case. We should fire the executive of the year.

You know that is probably one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read. Sorry to make that statement but it is my belief.

I have to ask one question:

What on earth would make you think that stupid roster decisions would be more acceptable because the team is winning?

Please, talk about the decisions and stop making ridiculous comments that don't even address the issue.

Hey, no one here is saying thjat this is because Dolan is cheap (or cheep) or that Shapiro sucks. Some ARE going off the deep end connecting dots that shouldn't be connected (maybe I am doing that, too, to a small extent) but most people are saying that losing Barton with all the other permutations and existing situations was stupid...and I agree.

If you don't agree go on record as saying that it was OK to lose Barton because you don't think he will ever become anything and keeping the guys on the roster we had was the right thing to do.

At least then you take a stance. Other than that, your comments are just redirection from the real issue.

I have to say congratulations to them both, and I hope they make the most of this great opportunity. I spoke with Barton on three different occassions last year, and he is a great young man. Extremely quiet and to himself, talks so quiet you may need a hearing aid....just a good guy who should be versatile enough to stick with the Cardinals where they can live with the strikeout issues. I expect he will not be back, and I think either the Indians complete a deal with the Cardinals to give his full rights to them, or he just flat out sticks with them all year.

As for Whitney, another great kid and his loss pains me. I spoke to him in Kinston, and have spoken to his father a few times. It paind me because there is a slim chance he could stick, but I just see no way he does. He has never played a game above Single-A, is not versatile, and dominated the SAL and CL last year at age 23. When you repeat at a level three times, you hope the guy finally gets it right. He has issues still with everything away, and is just not even close to being major league ready. He is going to get abused by major league pitching. Anyone bashing Shapiro for not protecting him is really out of line if you ask me.

FWIW, Whitney was slotted to be ranked #7 and Barton ranked #17 in our Top 50 list which is close to being pretty much done, but won't be posted until after the holidays (first week of January). They will be removed now, but I will still finish off their scouting reports to add them to the site later if they return.

Oh, and I agree that the loss of Barton does hurt when you consider the likes of Michaels and Dellucci are still on this roster. Sure would have been nice to let go of Michaels and make Francisco the 4th outfielder, which would have created a slot for barton (replacing Michaels).

That post was more of a reaction to all of the negativity I am seeing on this board since I have joined. We just won 96 games and people are complaining about everything! I was not happy that Toregas was protected over Barton or Whitney but like you said, some people are going overboard.

That post was more of a reaction to all of the negativity I am seeing on this board since I have joined. We just won 96 games and people are complaining about everything! I was not happy that Toregas was protected over Barton or Whitney but like you said, some people are going overboard.

Understood but, at least to me, your post came across as 'Hey, we won 96 games so why complain about stuff'.

If your intent was to go overboard the other direction you succeeded.

I will go on record to say that the people who ARE trying to connect all the dots into some statement about how badly the Indians are operated because of 'look at all these bad decisions that snowballed' or are connected are probably a little off the deep end.

That being said the loss of Barton and the keeping of veterans who are redundant to younger players are connected in long term planning.

But to take it is the extent that some (I guess even me, a little) are taking it is the extreme that turns people off, in my opinion.

Losing Barton stinks, the Cards have nothing to keep him back so I think he has a good chance of sticking there. Good for him.

Whitney I don't understand. The Nats can stash him on the roster... or can they? If this was any other team, I would expect them to kick the tires in spring training and return him- but this is Jim Bowden we are talking about, a man who has given his manager a wonderful mix of crazy and stupid for his OF next year. I see it being a Chris Shelton situation- if they keep him, he will stagnate and still need minor league time. It will stunt Whitney. He needs to be playing and hitting live pitching every day.

I mean, I look at Washington's roster and I can't fathom in any way what Bowden is thinking. He has 4 1B now (Young, Johnson, Kearns). The utility guy can play there (Aaron Boone). Bowden is a wheeler-dealer, but still has no backup C. No doubt he has a gazillion moves up his sleeve. But this just reeks crazy Bowden zaniness, and I don't like it. I see it more than anything crushing Whitney's hopes of developing into a regular bigleaguer than as a great opportunity.

I think we saw the usual cycle; clubs find great bargains in the Rule V, then every club thinks they can find the same- forgetting that only one or two of these guys each year end up being worth it (regardless of # of teams in the draft). So, everyone jumps in, keeps roster spots open- then 1-3 guys stick and be productive and the rest of the teams wonder what the hell they wasted their time on. Less teams participate the next couple years. Then GMs notice an Uggla or a Hamilton or a Andy Sisco and a bunch jump in again.

The Indians had two players taken in the major league phase, with the Nationals taking corner infielder Matt Whitney and the Cardinals taking Brian Barton, the outfielder who had been rumored to be a candidate for the first overall Rule 5 pick. Whitney was a supplemental first-round pick back in 2002 and was picked that high for his power, and after years of struggles due in part to a significant broken-leg injury Whitney sustained in 2003, his power is still there. He hit 32 homers in 2007 between two Class A stops, but he's still just 23.

"He's not ready for the major leagues, but certainly has tremendous potential," Bowden said. "I loved him back in his draft year—great power—and then he had those injuries that were just devastating. But he got healthy last year for the first time and he performed at two levels. He's got tremendous power, tremendous bat speed . . . third base, first base . . . and like (Jesus) Flores (who was Rule 5'd in 2006), it's worth the gamble."

Barton Goes To Redbirds

Barton, a potential five-tool player, hit .305/.402/.420 with 21 stolen bases in 2007 between Double-A Akron and Triple-A Buffalo. He was considered the consensus best gamble on the board. Most clubs were scared off by concerns about the knee surgery Barton had several weeks ago, but St. Louis obviously did its homework and dispatched scout Charlie Gonzalez to the University of Miami to see Barton work out.

"He's wearing a knee brace right now, but we were able to learn that it's not anything that's going to hold him back from being ready for spring training," Cardinals director of scouting and player development Jeff Luhnow said. "Really when you look at his career, the only time he hasn't performed is that small sample in Triple-A this year and we don't know how much of that was due to the injury. Clearly there was something bothering him, but he finished the season.

"He's a guy that checks a lot of boxes for us because he did perform throughout his career and our scouts liked him a lot. Every time we've seen him we've graded him out with pretty good tools across the board. He can run, he can play all three outfield positions. Defensively, he's very adequate and for us to take a Rule 5 position player the number one concern has to be defense. We felt like that is part of his arsenal and then the bat is a bonus, but he's also a righthanded hitter and right now if you look at our outfield, we've got three lefthanded hitters. He's going to have a legitimate chance to make the club."

Barton, who signed with Cleveland as a nondrafted free agent in 2004, was at home in Miami when he got the news, and was obviously elated to get an opportunity.

"Being left off the (Cleveland) roster was a little disappointing, but at the same time I had to understand that certain teams have certain needs," Barton said. "It's a business and that's the way you have to treat it. Everything's been good health-wise—it was just a little cleanup. I just felt like I'd be a better asset to a team if I was 100 percent healthy, so we went in and had the surgery. It was in the best interest for me and the team. I thought the team would be the Indians, but I'm happy to be a Cardinal now and I plan on making the most of this opportunity."

Mcreek wrote:BTW wasn't Ben Francisco exposed in the rule V last year or the year before?

Nope. BenF wasn't exposed at any point from my understanding.

Sean Smith on the other hand was exposed on multiple occasions (2006 & 2007) and in early 2007 he looked like a player that many had missed out on as he started the season rather well. Too bad that didn't continue.

• Brian Barton could help the Cardinals as a spare outfielder; he's a polished college bat who struggles against better offspeed stuff, but can fill in all over the outfield and has some speed and the willingness to take an occasional walk.

Whitney will be returned, unless the Indians work out a trade which is possible. He will not make the Nats opening day roster. Three people I spoke to today and in the last few days said he was nowhere close to major league ready, and Bowden even said it himself.

Be worried about Barton, too, Art. If his power outage last year was because he had a bad knee and it is fixed now we are in real trouble here.

Remember, he was our #5 prospect last winter. #5 prospect in the 10th best organization in baseball is a top, top prospect, certainly mid-range major league starter level. That is a lot to give up to roster Wyatt Toregas.

Plus, if like Consig said they didn't roster Barton partially because they had too many OFers and not enough catchers on their 40-man, this will really border on utter stupidity.

You're a small market team, you don't give up assets for nothing. You just don't.

The Indians had a roster spot available to make a selection in the Rule 5 draft -- Japanese right-hander Masahide Kobayashi does not yet count on the 40-man -- but didn't make a pick. They drafted 29th out of 30 teams.

Spoke to someone close to Randy Newsom last night. Apparently, he was on the short list of about 7-8 teams to be selected in the Rule 5. One team actually called him saying they were going to take him.

He is back in the states and has some interesting stories to tell. For those that recall from a piece I did on him earlier in the year, Randy is a character and a great personality. I'm bogged down trying to finish up my Top 50 scouting reports before the holidays, but I am going to try and do a piece with Newsom and possibly Matt Whitney talking about the excitement of getting picked and the disappointment of not getting picked.