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GameRager: I never said(or meant to imply) it was worse......I just find it a tad hypocritical, seeing as many here most likely either pirated at some point in the past or pirate some other form of media till today(books/music/tv shows/comics/etc). I just get irked when I see stuff like this, is all.

It is hypocritical if they continue to pirate and/or make use of pirated things.

It is not hypocritical if they pirated in the past and have since ceased.

That being said, while you'll note my stance is pretty flatly piracy is wrong.. I don't condemn anyone for pirating. I feel their actions are wrong, of course, I feel that they should not pirate.. but it's not my place to judge them. I do, however, grow most vexed at "moral high ground" pirates. The OP is mostly fine in my book, he does it to see if he wants the game.. and it seems that he decides pretty quick and if he doesn't buy it stops playing.

It's the people who say "I pirate because ______" and act like that makes it OK to take the fruits of someone's hard work without acknowledging them for it that bug me.

It's OK though, because I know that those people will go to the Special Hell.. the one reserved for child molesters and people who talk in movie theaters. ;)

tinyE: Is using an emulator piracy? I have NEVER gotten a concrete answer to this!

Yes, it is, unless you own the both the console and the game you're emulating. Also, for emulators that need BIOS files such as the PS2 one, you have to get the BIOS from your own PS2, otherwise it's illegal as well.

GameRager: I like how the OP is being low rated just because he said he pirates games. Stay classy, my friends. :sips beer:

stoicsentry: I didn't down rep him but one thing I don't get... how can you say down-repping on a forum is somehow worse than using software without compensating its creator?

Don't get me wrong, both are small potatoes. But still, in what world is meaningless down repping worse than not paying your fair share for a product?

Zolgar: Second though, is pirated items send one very very simple message to publishers: "People want this, but won't pay for it if they don't have to." Which they translate to "MOAR DRMZ!" Pirates and 2nd hand sales are 100% responsible for the DRMs we're dealing with.. and, without pirates, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on about 2nd hand sales :p If people don't want to deal with the DRM, think the game is too expensive, don't like the companies business practices, etc. then the only way to really send that message is to neither buy nor pirate their game. ---------------------------------------- The only case I consider piracy "acceptable" is in a 'try before you buy" style- only when there is no demo available.. and not a "Well, I played it for 25 hours and beat it.. so.. I'll buy it when it goes on sale on Steam for $5 so I didn't really pirate it." (If a game you spent 25 hours on is only worth $5 to you, then you have a more skewed sense of game value than I do.)

If you honestly think piracy is the reason(or a major reason) why publishers put DRM on games then I got this bridge in Brooklyn i'd like to try and sell ya. -------------------------- What about "pirating" very old games which aren't sold anymore online or offline, or people who's only option to buy certain games is buying price gouged(i.e. paying >100 dollars/euro/etc for the basic edition of a new game) retail versions from local retailers(Like some people in Asia/South America/etc.)?

stoicsentry: I didn't down rep him but one thing I don't get... how can you say down-repping on a forum is somehow worse than using software without compensating its creator?

Don't get me wrong, both are small potatoes. But still, in what world is meaningless down repping worse than not paying your fair share for a product?

Neobr10: Double standards, my friend.

I was wondering when the hardline antis would start crawling out of the woodwork.

(I wish people would actually read what I originally wrote before replying to someone's reply to my posts.....I never said or meant to imply anything like what stoic said.)

It is still piracy when you look at what the owner is willing to sell it for; see it is too high; and steal it instead with the chance of intending to maybe pay for it later when the price goes down if you still like it after playing for awhile. So you want to beat a game before buying it hat is what rental services are for. Get Gamefly. So the game that cost $60 today is $20 a year and a half from now. that was the price you pay for getting it right now. You cannot pay somebody what you feel their product is worth you have to pay them what they are willing to let it go for. It is a seller's place to decide what their wares are worth and if the buyer doesn't like it don't buy it. No business functions as an honor system pay what you want set up and the few who do that was their choice to make not yours. Otherwise you are just taking something because you can and making yourself feel better about it by chunking change at them.

How would you like it if people did the same to you? Say you go to work and instead of your expected paycheck receive half that a week late because the boss decided he'd rather pay the lower number AFTER you did it for him. "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it further" because I can and am entitled to the result of your work with compensation optional and an amount entirely at my discretion and whims.

Parvateshwar: No honor among thieves, he's going to draw attention to the rest of us. Yeah, so it's difficult as hell to track anyone through these forums, perhaps difficult is a bad word, impossible is a better one, but they're pirates, they're paranoid.

I also think some do it just to feel better about themselves(i.e. "That dude/lady over there is a filthy pirate! He/she pirates brand new games.....how evil! Me? I only download tv shows and music on youtube/p2p/etc....but c'mon, that's not pirating/wrong.).

Coelocanth: I don't pirate and am not a fan of the practice, although I've long since stopped condemning people for doing it. If you pirate, then so be it. None of my business, really. However, having said that, I've yet to see an excuse for pirating that, boiled down to its roots, amounts to more than 'I don't want to pay for games'. --------------------------------------------- Bah, longer response than I intended. Anyway, kudos to you for your candor. Good gaming, P1na.

Oddly enough, I have never seen an explanation for those opposed to piracy why ALL/MOST pirating is wrong that doesn't boil down to "That guy got stuff for free that I(because of my moral code/beliefs) have to pay for, and I don't like it."

Yeah, some say they don't like it because it''s illegal or because companies lose money, but imo that's what it all boils down to.

Yeah, I just don't care, pirate or don't, I think most rational people know that if they don't somewhat support the stuff they love it goes away. Crappy industries are more to blame when our favorite whatever closes up shop than any piracy boogeyman the real guilty parties can conjure up to distract from their own guilt and poor policies.

I pay for almost all of my stuff because: 1) I can 2) It's more convenient

The moment either of those become untrue I have to reevaluate some or all of my purchases.

YMMV.

tinyE: Is using an emulator piracy? I have NEVER gotten a concrete answer to this!

Depends, if you're asking Nintendo it most certainly is.

If you're asking sane people, the answer is "who gives a fuck?" which could explain you still not having an answer;)

On point 1) Piracy is one of two main reasons for DRM. The other being 2nd hand sales, which also hurt the industry.. the difference being 2nd hand sales don't (usually) give more than 1 person access to the 'same copy' of the game at the same time.

However,m in a certain regard, piracy is the main cause of DRM, and I can explain to you why: If no one pirated games (.. hah!), then the game companies could only complain about 2nd hand sales cutting in to their profits. But if they try to enforce DRM "to reduce 2nd hand sales", they get an unholy shitstorm about buyers rights and whatnot. They need a scapegoat, that scapegoat is piracy.. they can be all "I'm really sorry about the 2nd hand industry, but these nasty evil pirates are really cutting in to our profits and hurting it for everyone! Additionally, way back in the day, oldschool piracy and 2nd hand sales weren't a big deal. If I bought a game and copied it for a friend.. that was one freaking extra copy.. a very prevalent group of copiers could get like .. 100 'copies' of a game for buying 10 or something like that.. not that high of a ratio, and a 2nd hand sale is going to pass through .. maybe half a dozen hands before someone keeps it. Piracy though, one person can supply hundreds, even thousands or more people without any real effort on their part.. and odds are good that every one they supply will in turn supply more.

DRM exists for one very simple reason in the end: Money. They have to believe that the money they spend on the DRM will be outweighed by the reduced losses they will take from a harder to crack DRM. That's all there is to it. The 2nd hand market alone would likely not be a high enough loss rate, if there were no piracy.

On the second point: Situational, I suppose. If there is absolutely no means of gaining a legitimate copy of the game.. I'm still the sort who believes in doing without.. but many ofthose games the IP rights are buried somewhere so you're not really taking 'money' away from anyone, so I don't consider it all that wrong.. so long as if it becomes legally purchasable you buy it as soon as possible.

GameRager: I find it laughable when people complain about pirates not paying their fair share then they go and buy a game for 75%(or more) off, or a used game(most times used game sales also net the creator/publisher little to no income).

Fictionvision: Buying used from a national chain store is worse imo because no money goes back to any of the companies that worked on or distributed the game. If people are borrowing or trading games among friends I doubt the companies really care. The rise of a certain Game store where you Stop to buy stuff pushing used copies on people every time they are looking for a game vastly accelerated the problem and lead to things like Project $10 and revenue through excessive DLC releases. The end result will be a huge push to get people to buy games digitally next generation and possible online activation for console games.

I heard Sony/etc is pushing to get new (disc based)PS3 releases made so that you'd have to pay a re-activation fee if you try to play them in a console other than the one you originally played them in(If you play a new game you bought in another console you own or play it at a friend's place, or if you buy a used copy from a retail store/etc.).

If that happens(I buy used console games from time to time) I may just buy digital copies from the console stores or cut back on buying console games altogether.

GameRager: (I wish people would actually read what I originally wrote before replying to someone's reply to my posts.....I never said or meant to imply anything like what stoic said.)

stoicsentry: I want to clear up 2 things:

1) that GR never said that in explicit language. 2) GR, I felt you implied it because you expressed indignation at the downrepping, but not at OP's behavior.

To be clear.....I didn't express indignation at OP's behavior because I didn't feel upset by most/all of what he/she said.

That said, thanks for this reply. Many times I post something and someone says something I never said/meant to imply & then when I explain that to them they keep acting like I said/inferred such things(or at least they never apologize for "putting words in my mouth" and/or affirm that I never said/meant to imply such things.)

I think that if businesses could count on people paying for games that they liked that many of them would use that business model. They would lose some money by not charging people who ended up not liking the game, but they would gain (potentially more) money from people who were hindered from trying it by the price tag. They also wouldn't have to bother with demos. Unfortunately, there are many people who would take advantage of that system.

While what you are doing is not exactly legal, your willingness to pay for games after you beat them that you never may play again makes it not so bad in my book.

stoicsentry: Fair is really not that confusing here. IMO, what is fair, generally speaking, is whatever is being asked for. The word "fair" meaning = I have the moral authority to deliver this product at X price. So when GOG offers something at 60% off, they have every right to do so as per the terms of their agreement with the owner. So in that case, yes, completely fair... even 99% off... completely fair.

"Fair" not meaning necessarily a "reasonable value." So MS Office might have a price of $75, that being the "fair" price but at the same time a bad value IMO. Just my 2 cents.

That's how I see it, feel free to go your own way... ------------------------- We've also clashed about the word hypocrisy before and discovered that we slightly differ as to our conceptions on that.

A hypocrite is one who tells others to act or not act a certain way while persisting in the same behavior.* It doesn't matter whether one has done such a behavior in the past. For example, I used to take coins out of my mother's purse to buy baseball cards when I was a kid. I'm sure many have done the same. Still, if I ever have a kid and he does that, of course I'm going to tell him it is wrong. That is because I've grown up, I've matured, the kid hasn't done so yet...

* = with the exception of situations in which there are genuine differences between the people, e.g.: a surgeon is not a hypocrite for performing surgery while maintaining that non-surgeons should not perform surgery, etc.

When I talked about fair I was responding more to your (implied)belief that a creator should get fair compensation by the consumer for their work(And your statement that made it look like you thought/were accusing OP of not paying for the majority of the game he pirated.) by asking how paying less for a game on sale is any less "fair"(financial compensation wise) than pirating a game then buying it on sale later on.

(I hope I articulated my thought correctly this time....sometimes I think of things in my head and how to express them then mess up when I translate those thought into text.) ------------------------- I messed up with my usage of the term hyprocrite/hypocritical...sorry about that. I meant to say that those who still pirate something while bashing/belittling those who pirate games & admit to it are being hyprocritical. Those who used to pirate who demonstrate the same behavior, however, aren't hypocrites but they have no place(imo) chastising/etc those who currently do so......or at least not in the manner some do it(rudely/on a high horse/etc).

Zolgar: I do, however, grow most vexed at "moral high ground" pirates. The OP is mostly fine in my book, he does it to see if he wants the game.. and it seems that he decides pretty quick and if he doesn't buy it stops playing.

It's the people who say "I pirate because ______" and act like that makes it OK to take the fruits of someone's hard work without acknowledging them for it that bug me.

It's OK though, because I know that those people will go to the Special Hell.. the one reserved for child molesters and people who talk in movie theaters. ;)

I sometimes explain myself to others about why I pirate, but that's mostly for two good(imo) reasons: Sometimes I do it to counter those sticking me/others into the same category as those who profit from piracy, and sometimes I do it because I feel compelled to explain my actions to others. It's not that I(and others) are always doing it for underhanded reasons(to feel better about what we do, to whitewash what we do).

Also is there room in that special hell for those who talk loudly on cell phones in libraries/stores/etc? ;)

Speaking of Youtube, how do you folks feel about all the music/movies/tv shows being uploaded and viewed over there (that aren't uploaded by the rights holders)?

How do you feel about clips of the above? How do you feel about the use of such content in GMod/Source Filmmaker videos or Youtube Poops? How do you feel about fangames or fanmade ROM hacks utilizing copyrighted content? How do you feel about soundfonts that pack in sounds from popular games? How do you feel about sites that host emulated music files (NSF, VGM, PSF, etc) when taking into consideration the official soundtrack releases of some games on places like iTunes and Bandcamp?

On that last note, why do you suppose people look at video game music differently from standard professional-grade music? I was kind of under the impression that VG musicians and movie/tv show musicians were paid by commission and/or got royalties from the overall sales of the aforementioned media, but if someone has evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.