NB: THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A TRANSCRIPTION UNIT RECORDING AND
NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT: BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF MIS-
HEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY, IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL
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PANORAMA
SHAMED
A PANORAMA SPECIAL
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 19:05:04
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JANE CORBIN: January of this year, an American soldier in Iraq has seen enough.
Reconstruction
He's disgusted by what some of his fellow soldiers have done to people they came to liberate. In his hand a
bombshell. It's about to be delivered to his commanders, a CD filled with hundreds of graphic images of
the torture of prisoners.
HAYDAR SABR ABED: They started torturing us, we did not know each time where the blow would
come from. We had bags on our heads. I was kicked in the jaw and it's still broken. They always chose the
sensitive parts of the body.
Reconstruction
CORBIN: The Red Cross are the only outsiders to inspect prison conditions in Iraq. Now they give their
first in depth interview to Panorama.
PIERRE KRAHENBUHL: I think it has been shown through the photographs that have become public
there were behaviours, there was treatment that was degrading and inhumane that appeared to look for
humiliation of the detainees, that clearly in our view was tantamount to torture.
CORBIN: Today in Baghdad saw the start of the first court-martial of a US soldier. Jeremy Sivvits, a 24
year old military policeman has been gaoled for maltreating detainees.
Reconstruction
The Bush Administration says the abuse was un-American, the work of a few bad apples. Tonight, using
reconstructions we hear the testimony of the US soldiers accused of torture.
STAFF SGT IVAN FREDERICK: I'd asked for help and warned of this. Nobody would listen. I told the
battalion commander that I didn't like the way it was going and his reply was: "Don’t worry about it, I give
you permission to do it."
CORBIN: Since 9/11 and the deaths of 3,000 people America has adopted a hard line approach to the way
it collects intelligence about its enemies.
COFER BLACK
Co-ordinator for Counter Terrorism
State Department
This is a very highly classified area but I have to say that all you need to know is that there was a before
9/11 and there was an after 9/11. After 9/11 the gloves come off.
CORBIN: A British detainee captured during the US War on Terror speaks out for the first time on
television about his experience at the hands of Americans.
DETAINEE: They put you in chains, shackles, they cut into your feet and your hands. And at any time
they want they can attack you, and basically you're like a slave.
CORBIN: Tonight we investigate the scale of abuse by US forces and their British allies in Iraq. The
torture is not confined to one prison or one country. As the full story continues to emerge, we question
what part was played by some top brass in the US military and leading members of the Bush
Administration.
Reconstruction
Seven US military police are accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, some have given their own
version of events in letters home and in testimony to army investigators. Most claim those above them in
the military chain of command knew what they were doing and encouraged it.
FREDERICK: "Dear Mimi, I am feeling so bad at how the army has come down on me. They always said
that shit rolls downhill and guess who's at the bottom? I've asked for help and warned of this but nobody
would listen."
CORBIN: The soldier accused of being one of the ringleaders, Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick, blames MI –
Military Intelligence at the prison – for what happened.
FREDERICK: The military working dogs were used to intimidate prisoners as MIs request . A CID agent
told the soldier working 1A to stress one prisoner out as much as possible, that he wanted to talk to him the
next day.
CORBIN: Another of the MPs, or Military Police, involved in the ritual humiliation of prisoners, claimed
her colleagues were just untrained reservists doing what their superiors ordered.
MP: They would bring in one to several prisoners at a time already hooded and cuffed. The job of the
Military Police was to keep them awake. Make it hell so they would talk.
CORBIN: Cumberland, Maryland, the home base of the American Military Police Unit at the heart of the
abuse scandal. Their families and friends are God-fearing people shocked by what their own have done.
CHURCH MINISTER: This past couple of weeks we have seen pictures that have absolutely horrified us.
When people lose their compass of right and wrong, something is disturbingly wrong, and we as a
community together say we are sorry this occurred.
CORBIN: A community here in small town America are divided over the scandal that has stained the
reputation of the US Army.
Members of Congregation
MAN1: I think Rumsfeld should resign. It was on his watch, it happened under him.
MAN2: A select few of our troops have given people in Iraq a poor view of what a democratic life could
mean and what we are ultimately trying to help bring to them.
MAN3: Not every Arab is a bad person and it's kind of funny because I always not every Muslim is a
terrorist but every terrorist is a Muslim.
CORBIN: Most of the soldiers caught up in this scandal came from this remote corner of Appalachia, hard
pressed, conservative communities, which traditionally have provided many troops for the US armed forces.
Kerry Schoemaker Davies served with the now notorious police unit for four years. Her husband is still on
active duty at Abu Ghraib. She knows many of those accused of torturing Iraqis. Her best friend is private
Lynndie England, a 21 year old who has become the face of the scandal.
KERRY SHOEMAKER DAVIS
Former Reservist
372nd Military Police Company
I met her when she first came to the unit and I was assigned to be her sponsor, sweet girl, loved to have a
good time, very compassionate, very generous, just would bend over backwards to try and help somebody
not at all what we see in the pictures. If I could talk to her today, I would just smack her right upside of
head and ask her what the hell were you thinking? And I cried, I cried when I saw those pictures.
CORBIN: Lynndie England's home is this trailer park, but she's now in military detention, one of seven
soldiers so far facing court-martial. The reservist from rural America who enlisted just to pay for her
education and ended up in Iraq, told a local TV station she was simply following orders.
KCNC-TV
Pfc. LYNNDIE ENGLAND
372nd Military Police Company
I was told to stand there, point, give the thumbs up, smile for the camera, take the picture.
Q: Who told you to do that?
ENGLAND: Persons in my higher chain command. To us we were doing our job which meant we were
doing what we were told and outcome was what the wanted.
CORBIN: Private Ingram's fiancée, Specialist Charles Graner is also accused of torturing Iraqis. England
is five months pregnant with his child. Graner lived here in Union Town, Pennsylvania. The reservist is a
prison guard in civilian life. A divorced father of two, the entrance to Graner's home bears witness to his
belief in a righteous God.
TOM ZAVADA
Neighbour of Spec. Charles Graner
To me he was a hardworking person, took good care of his kids from what I could see. They were clean,
fed, too my grandkids and would take care of them overnight, I would trust him with them, there was no
problem not trusting him with the kids. He's just not the person I… that left Union Town that's in them
pictures.
CORBIN: But Charles Graner in the photos from Iraq seems to relish what he's doing, though he claims he
was just a pawn of military intelligence.
GUY WOMACK
Spec. Graner's Civilian Attorney
He was told to go along with the instructions from the Intelligence Commander because they were in
charge. When he complained to the Military Intelligence people about what he was being told to do, they
told him that: "Hey, you're just an MP, do what we say, you work for us." So he complied.
CORBIN: Abu Ghraib, the prison at the centre of the scandal. The officer in charge of the gaol and all
Iraq's detainee facilities was Brigadier General Janice Karpinski, she was the Commander of the Reserve
Military Police Unit at Abu Ghraib. General Karpinski has been officially admonished. She's blamed by
some for what her MPs have done.
Brig. Gen. JANIS KARPINSKI
Head of the Army's
800th Military Police Brigade
I was going to get sick when I saw the photographs, I actually saw them. They were worse than I could
have imagined, and I was shocked that the MPs would be involved in such a thing, that they would allow
themselves to be involved.
CORBIN: These pictures have had a devastating effect, I mean they have destroyed America's image, and
some would hold you responsible, others in the chain of command overall in the American Army.
KARPINSKI: I've never run from responsibility and I'm not running from responsibility this time, but I
know my MPs and I know my soldiers well enough to know that there was an influence, a very strong
influence to make them do these kind of things.
CORBIN: Are you saying higher up?
KARPINSKI: Yes I am.
CORBIN: How high?
KARPINSKI: I don’t know how high it goes.
CORBIN: To the Pentagon, to the Defence Secretary himself, Mr Rumsfeld?
KARPINSKI: I don’t know.
CORBIN: For America, the invasion of Iraq was part of the war on terror. There was never any strategic
planning for what might follow. Coalition forces quickly found themselves handling thousands of prisoners
of war, and problems arose almost immediately. According to elite Red Cross report, the Bush
Administration and their British allies were being warned about a pattern of abuse of Iraqi detainees from
last May onwards.
PIERRE KRAHENBUHL
Director of Operations
International Committee of the Red Cross
It was in particular the people who were considered as having high intelligence value that were undergoing
some of the severe elements of treatment that we described, but I think in general a pattern that we
considered of sufficient concern to submit very clearly to the authorities, yes.
CORBIN: So you submitted very clearly your concerns to the authorities.
KRAHENBUHL: And in repeated fashion, yes.
CORBIN: In the South the British Army had responsibility first for prisoners of war and then all Iraqis in
detention. The Geneva Conventions which govern the conduct of armies in war states that prisoners in the
protection of occupying forces must be treated humanely, that detainees in the British sector were routinely
hooded. The British stopped the practice last September. In May 2003 allegations began emerging of the
abuse of prisoners by those US forces and British soldiers.
So you were visiting British run detention facilities routinely in the south for several months.
KRAHENBUHL: Yes, we were.
CORBIN: And you found, as a result of that, that there were abuses and breaches of the Geneva
Convention in that part of Iraq which was controlled by the British forces.
KRAHENBUHL: Yes, we had elements that in terms again of the conditions and treatment there that were
worrying at the time and that had been of significant concern.
CORBIN: British forces based themselves in Basrah, Iraq's major city in the south. Troops rounded up
suspected Ba'athists and Saddam's militia men. But they also arrested many petty criminals and innocent
civilians. Damaging allegations of abuse were made against the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, with
photographs published in the Daily Mirror. Those pictures were shown to be fakes, never taken in Iraq.
But that same regiment is still tainted by accounts of how some of its soldiers treated one civilian. Daoud
Moussa is a colonel in the Iraqi police force. Today he looks after the orphaned children of his late son,
Baha.
DAOUD MOUSSA
Father of Victim
He worked in the evening at the hotel and kept his day free to look after his children because his wife
passed away six months beforehand. She left him with Al Hussein and Al Hassan, they were 4 and 5 years
old.
CORBIN: On September 14th 2003 Baha Moussa was arrested by soldiers from the Queen's Lancashire
Regiment during a raid on the hotel. Kifah Taha was one of several others arrested with him.
KIFAH TAHA
They locked us in the bathroom, pushed us to the floor and pressed our heads down with their boots, they
humiliated us, they screamed abuse at us like: "Fuck you, pig, foolish, stupid" and they seemed to be
enjoying it. They were laughing.
CORBIN: The men were taken to a British military prison. There Baha Moussa and Kifah Taha received
savage beatings. Mr Taha was so badly injured that he spent two months in a British military hospital.
Now he needs kidney dialysis.
TAHA: They started torturing us without questioning us. The part of torture, they were kick boxing us
with pleasure. I heard the last screams of Baha before his voice disappeared. During the first two days
Baha was only a metre away from me. I could hear him and see him. He would moan and wail from the
severity of his torture. He was really badly tortured.
CORBIN: The army wouldn't hand over Baha's body until a British professor carried out the autopsy.
DAOUD MOUSSA: In brief he told me that your son has three ribs broken, the 7th, 8th and the 9th ribs, this
was in addition to the broken nose and the bruises. He also told me that your son died of strangulation done
by a piece of cloth.
CORBIN: The family say the military authorities wanted changes to the death certificate.
DAOUD MOUSSA: The cause of death in the certificate was indicated as 'heart seizure'. I said I'm not
accepted that certificate until you write in it that he died from strangulation, just as the professor indicated.
CORBIN: Just days later, a local sheikh presented the family's evidence about Moussa's alleged killing to
two of the British army's most senior generals, at this meeting in Basrah. The Ministry of Defence say that
a royal military police inquiry into Mr Moussa's death has been conducted, and their report is currently
being considered with legal advice, but no one has been charged. The Red Cross raised the case of Baha
Moussa shortly after his death last September. It's just one of many cases of maltreatment which they
reported at the time to the British authorities.
From what you're saying it's been clear that you made your concerns known to the authorities, in this
instance in the south who were the British Coalition Forces.
PIERRE KRAHENBUHL
Director of Operations
International Committee of the Red Cross
Yes, we made our concerns known, indeed repeatedly, and as on other occasions and other instances, we
asked for corrective measures to be taken.
CORBIN: And were those corrective measures taken?
KRAHENBUHL: In a number of instances, yes. We submitted those findings, as you indicate, very early
and again repeatedly. In some regions, and even the south, measures were taken fairly rapidly and we felt to
a large extent our recommendations were taken seriously.
CORBIN: As the British Army got to grips with abuses in the south late last summer, the insurgency in
central Iraq was rapidly becoming a major problem for their ally. US forces controlled Baghdad and the
rebellious Sunni triangle. The Americans were detaining so many Iraqis. They were forced to re-open
Saddam's largest and most infamous prison. Abu Ghraib had been a death camp for those who offended the
regime. All Iraqis knew and feared the place where thousands had been tortured and murdered. One
survivor describes his treatment at Abu Ghraib in Saddam's days.
Dr. HUSSAIN AL-SHAHRISTANI
Imprisoned by Saddam Hussein
I was hanged from hands tied at the back to the ceiling for hours at a time, and I was given electric shocks
on different parts of the body, on the sensitive parts of the body, and I was beaten very severely.
Brig. Gen. JANIS KARPINSKI
Head of the Army's
800th Military Police Brigade
It had a notorious reputation for torture and for just incarcerating people for long.. years at a time without
any real evidence. There were no other choices in fact, it was the only location with maximum security
cells and isolation cells.
CORBIN: There was chaos from the moment Abu Ghraib reopened last July. Within weeks US military
police with no specialist training were running a civilian prison, struggling to control 6,000 detainees.
Their relatives had no idea who was being held here. Many of the detainees were innocent or just petty
criminals. The bombing of the United Nations in Iraq at the end of August heralded the start of a new level
of violence. Saddam had not been caught, resistance was mounting and becoming increasingly organised.
Islamic militants using suicide bombs began to take the their toll of US lives. The Americans were badly
rattled. The message came down from the Pentagon to US forces in Iraq.
KARPINSKI: They wanted more actionable intelligence, these raids were picking up. the number of
detainees we were holding was increasing.
CORBIN: Collecting that actionable intelligence was the job of a different more shadowy set of soldiers in
Abu Ghraib, Military Intelligence or MI in army parlance. They interrogated detainees to gain information
to enable them to penetrate the insurgents networks and save American lives.
KARPINSKI: The MI interrogation teams I think were facing tremendous pressure to get results. They…
CORBIN: Pressure from where?
KARPINSKI: Well from the headquarters in.. I don’t know how high up it went but there was definitely
pressure being placed on them to work more.. longer hours, more vigorously, get what you can.
CORBIN: The Pentagon decided to despatch a man, well versed in the business of interrogation, to Iraq.
Major General Geoffrey Miller, the Commander of Guantanamo Bay. Nearly 600 detainees are held in this
US prison camp in Cuba, in a legal limbo without time limits. Interrogation was the main purpose of
Guantanamo.
Major General GEOFFREY MILLER
Commander of Camp Delta
Guantanamo Bay
JTF Guantanamo's vision is to detain enemy combatants and develop intelligence for our nation and our
allies, to help with the global war on terror. So we detain these enemy combatants to be able to accomplish
that mission in as quickly a time as possible.
CORBIN: Every night at the open air movie theatre beyond the prison the troops salute the flag.
I do solemnly swear…..
To support and defend the constitution of the United States….
Against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
So help me God.
CORBIN: Post 9/11 a US setup this detention facility outside the Geneva Conventions. In his first
television interview a British detainee, now released, give his account of what happened here.
TAREQ DERGOUL
Former British detainee at Guantanamo Bay
You're in a cage, it's about 8ft by 4ft, sometimes there's nothing in your cell. You have no toilet paper or
soap or anything to keep clean. Anywhere you go they put you in chains. You're treated like you didn't
exist.
CORBIN: At Guantanamo senior camp commanders called for an official review of their interrogation
techniques, a so-called matrix designed to obtain intelligence from detainees. They were determined to
make their regime as efficient as possible at extracting information, but they insist it is humane.
DERGOUL: Everything was by force. It was all a humiliation. They would search out our private parts,
they would pretend search us which would consist of them putting their hands over our… um.. me, and
anyone's private parts.
CORBIN: Detainees say that General Miller introduced short shackling, a practice where detainees were
forced to squat with hands chained between their legs, and then to the floor.
DERGOUL: You would be put in like a cross legged position, sitting down, and they would actually pull
the chains towards the pin in the floor so there would be no slack, so you wouldn't be able to lean back or
move left or right. I mean you wouldn't be given nothing, I mean no food, toilet, you would get cramps,
unbearable pain. I had to scream and shout, and nothing would be done.
CORBIN: In Guantanamo pictures were regularly taken of the detainees as they would be later in Iraq.
And if prisoners did not comply with camp rules, the extreme reaction force could be sent in. Videos were
taken.
DERGOUL: They sprayed me in my eye, my left eye, down my check with pepper spray and left me to
vomit and they'll be filming this outside. I couldn't actually see with one eye what was happing. There
would by like five guys outside, a guy holding a video camera, and they would charge in with a front plastic
shield and force me to the floor, stick their knee into my back and force my head in a toilet and flush it.
CORBIN: The Red Cross had visited Guantanamo several times in the past two years. They've revealed to
Panorama they're worried about what goes on here.
There are elements of the treatment at Guantanamo Bay that give you cause for concern.
PIERRE KRAHENBUHL
Director of Operations
International Committee of the Red Cross
There were elements of treatment that we raised in our discussions with the Americans as we see a need for
corrective measures to be taken.
CORBIN: A need for corrective measures?
KRAHENBUHL: Yes.
CORBIN: That they should change them because they are not acceptable.
KRAHENBUHL: Yes, we did submit in consistent reports to the US authorities findings and concerns on
our part over the recent months.
CORBIN: In late August 2003 General Miller was ordered from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
His task – to investigate how the strategic interrogation of prisoners there could be enhanced. The US
Senate is carrying out investigations into Iraqi prisoner abuses. They've revealed just how level the
involvement was in General Miller's mission to Iraq. The top military man in the US, General Myers,
admitted it was a Pentagon initiative.
General RICHARD MYERS
Chairman, US Joint Chiefs of Staff
We kind of pushed General Miller on 'em in August of 03 to look - because he was so successful in
Guantanamo - look at our detention operations to make sure we're doing it right and that we're also.. that it's
well connected that the intels get into the analysts and so forth so we can win this…
Q: Now is this in response to any immediate complaints or is it on your own initiative?
MYERS: No, that was our own initiative and that was a discussion between the Secretary and myself and
our staff.
STEPHEN CAMBONE
Defence Undersecretary for Intelligence
We had then in Iraq a large body of people who had been captured on the battlefield, that we had to gain
intelligence from for force protection purposes, and he was asked to go over at my encouragement to take a
look at the situation as it existed there.
CORBIN: So General Miller was sent to Iraq with the blessing of Donald Rumsfeld and the military high
command. In September the Defence Secretary himself visited Iraq. Mr Rumsfeld was shown around
Saddam's notorious prison by General Karpinski. But the same day General Miller was also here behind the
scenes, and running into flak with Abu Ghraib's commander.
Brig. Gen. JANIS KARPINSKI
Head of the Army's
800th Military Police Brigade
That was the first time I heard him use the expression that they were going to Gitmoise the operation and I
said: "Sir I don’t know what that means" and he said: "We're going to put the procedures in place like they
are in Guantanamo Bay." He said: "We're going to take Abu Ghraib and focus our interrogation efforts out
there." Again I said to him: "Sir, Abu Ghraib is not mine to give you." So it was in a meeting and he
cleared the room and he said to me: "Look, we can do this my way or we can do this the difficult way, and
we're going to take Abu Ghraib.
CORBIN: After General Miller's visit, military intelligence was given control of a ring of Abu Ghraib. His
change was formalised by a special military order from a US commander of Coalition Forces in Iraq. It
came as a shock to General Karpinski.
KARPINSKI: I found out several days after the order had been given.
CORBIN: So your prison, effectively, had been taken away from you.
KARPINSKI: That particular facility, that's right.
CORBIN: Why do you think that was?
KARPINSKI: Well because of the interrogation effort and because General Miller had told me in
September that he was going to take Abu Ghraib.
Reconstruction
CORBIN: In January a soldier came forward to give evidence of the abuses at Abu Ghraib. A secret
investigation by General Taguba revealed what General Miller had recommended to the Pentagon should
happen at the prison. Miller believed operations should be humane but stated:
"It is essential that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful
exploitation of the internees."
And he believed that:
"Detention operations must act as an enabler for interrogation."
The traditional firewall between guards responsible for the prisoners' welfare and intelligence responsible
for interrogation was taken down. The 205th Military Intelligence Brigade took over block 1A, once used
by Saddam's torturers. General Miller had left behind Pentagon approved rules for changing the prison
regime. Military police, reservists with little training, would now become involved in military
interrogation. General Miller has subsequently insisted his rules were within the Geneva Conventions.
KARPINSKI: The last night he was in Iraq I saw him and he said that he was going to leave a CD with
lesson plans and printed information and the MPs who were going to be supporting the interrogation effort
would be given specific training, additional training. In other words, how to move detainees, how to handle
them specifically. I don’t think that training was ever conducted, at least to my knowledge it was never
conducted. But the interrogation effort seemed to become more vigorous.
CORBIN: Many in the prison were innocent, though some were criminals, Iraqi insurgents. The Abu
Ghraib inquiry claimed General Miller was using:
"Guantanamo operational procedures as base lines."
Base lines aimed at terrorists. Yet Taguba stated the people in Abu Ghraib were:
"Not believed to be international terrorists."
Did you point out to General Miller that you were not dealing with suspected terrorists in Abu Ghraib as
they were in Guantanamo and that perhaps things were slightly different?
KARPINSKI: Well he looked at the security detainees as a population of likely terrorists, were potential
terrorists, knowing that there was likely terrorists amongst that population at the time. He didn't make a
distinction.
CORBIN: Do you think he should have done?
KARPINSKI: Cant second guess him, but certainly in my mind there's a difference between a terrorist and
somebody that is busting through a checkpoint past the curfew hour.
CORBIN: By October 2003 pictures like this were being taken at dead of night on the wing where military
interrogators and military police were now working together. Haydar Sabr Abed was one of the victims on
that wing. In the Autumn of 2003 some of the photos captured his ordeal. He's pictured here with Lynndie
England.
HAYDAR SABR ABED
Abuse Victim at Abu Ghraib
We didn't know where they were taking us because our heads were covered. They would slam us against
the wall and would scream at us. Whenever we were near a wall or a door, they would slam us against it.
Whenever someone fell, they would drag him.
CORBIN: Soldiers doing this were from the 372nd Company. The Cumberland Unit arrived at Abu Ghraib
at the beginning of October. Inexperienced reservists found themselves in an overcrowded prison in a war
zone, mortared daily. Morale was low, discipline poor. There were incidents of alcohol abuse and sexual
abandonment. From the moment the 372nd arrived to guard the prisoners, things went badly awry.
HAYDAR SABR ABED: Then they started torturing us, beating us. They punched and kicked. They
would press on our heads with their shoes. They stood on our backs. The weather was cold at the time and
they would throw cold water at us. We did not know where the blows would come from because our heads
were covered. They would kick us on or heads and in the genitals.
CORBIN: Although the photographs publicly scene so far show acts of physical and sexual humiliation,
the Taguba inquiry also quotes instances of torture which included:
"Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves"
"A male military police guard having sex with a female detainee"
"Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair"
"Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broomstick"
CORBIN: According to the Taguba report two military policemen were particularly prominent in the abuse
scandal. Sergeant Ivan Frederick and specialist Charles Graner. Taguba described them as born leaders. In
civilian life they are both corrections officers at US prisons.
Reconstruction
In their defence their lawyers claim that they were "Only following orders."
GUY WOMACK
Spec. Graner's Civilian Attorney
Officers within the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade who gave the orders to set up these photographs, to
abuse the prisoners if you will, the people who gave those orders clearly are at fault. But I don’t think it
stops just with them. Above them would have been people who created the climate that allowed this to be
done.
Reconstruction
CORBIN: Testimony given to army investigators by Graner and Frederick's fellow accused does appear to
support their claim, that military intelligence officers at Abu Ghraib were involved in the abuse.
Statements
MAN: They were all naked, a bunch of guys from the Military Intelligence and the Military Police there
that night. Sergeant Graner and Sergeant Frederick ordered the guys who are questioning them to admit
what they did.
WOMAN: Military Intelligence wanted to get them to talk. It is Graner and Frederick's job to do things for
MI and other government agencies to get these people to talk.
Q: What did you hear Military Intelligence saying to Graner and Frederick?
MAN: "Loosen this guy up to make sure he has a bad night, make sure he gets the treatment."
Pfc. LYNNDIE ENGLAND
372nd Military Police Company
All of us who had been charged, we all agree that we don’t feel like we were doing things that we weren't
supposed to because we were told to do them. We think everything was justified because we were
instructed to do this and to do that.
CORBIN: Lynndie England's former Commander, herself criticised in the scandal, believes the MPs were
being manipulated by others when taking the photographs.
Brig. Gen. JANIS KARPINSKI
Head of the Army's
800th Military Police Brigade
When you have a photograph, a picture really is worth a thousand words, that it just seems peculiar that
they seem almost staged. If the MPs were afraid of being caught doing these things it would have been
faster, more disorganised. You know I think you would have seen that urgency: 'quick, take the picture
before somebody comes by'. But they seemed to be too comfortable, or too relaxed, as if don’t worry about
it because everybody knows that needs to know and this is okay.
CORBIN: Suggesting that they were comfortable because someone had told them to do it.
KARPINSKI: Yes, and they were simply following those instructions.
CORBIN: That very month, October, the Red Cross visited Abu Ghraib, and as their leaked report later
revealed, they began to hear about some aspects of the abuse from prisoners.
PIERRE KRAHENBUHL
Director of Operations
International Committee of the Red Cross
Well, what you saw from the report that was made public was the well known such as hooding, there were
elements such as being kept for long periods in total darkness and naked. Those were some of the findings
that we reported back on.
CORBIN: And instances of deliberate humiliation of prisoners?
KRAHENBUHL: Well though some of these are clearly cases of humiliation where the people were placed
and paraded naked, according to the findings in front of either other inmates or the guards, were certainly
elements that were part of those patterns of concern, yes.
CORBIN: And in front of the female guards sometimes with for example women's underwear on their
heads, as you detailed in the report.
KRAHENBUHL: Those were certainly some of the cases that were reported, yes.
CORBIN: Many of the victims say that torture meted out to them centred on inexplicable sexual
humiliations.
HAYDAR SABR ABED
Abuse Victim at Abu Ghraib
We wouldn't take our clothes off so they brought a knife and started slicing through our clothes. They we
were naked in front of the American soldiers. There were men and women among them.
Statement
MAN: They made me do all kinds of strange exercises, called me all kinds of names such as "gays that
liked to have sex with guys" and then they handcuffed their hands together and their legs with shackles and
started to stack them up on top of each other by ensuring that the bottom guy's penis would touch the guy at
the top's butt.
CORBIN: To those who dealt with the victims of torture worldwide these scenes fit a well documented and
illegal psychological approach to interrogation.
SHERMAN CARROLL
Medical Foundation for the
Care of Victims of Torture
The particular soldiers didn't invent these ideas. These are techniques that are done in concert, they have
been adapted to the local context where they are particularly humiliating and particularly shaming to that
population of people. I think that bringing women into the interrogation room, particularly for male
Muslim prisoners is a particularly difficult and humiliating process for them. It's intended to help break
them.
Q: Do you know why they wanted you to do that?
KCNC-TV
Pfc. LYNNDIE ENGALND
372nd Military Police Company
Because I was a female and in the Muslim culture it's very embarrassing or humiliating to be naked in front
of another female, expressly if it's an American.
CORBIN: Pictures were taken routinely, a record of their shame which could be used against a detainee
and to intimidate others.
HAYDAR SABR ABED
Abuse Victim at Abu Ghraib
We were tortured for two hours and this woman was present. During the torture they were taking pictures
but we didn't know who they were for. They beat us for two hours and they spent two hours taking
photographs. These are only part of what there is. There are more photographs.
Brig. Gen. JANIS KARPINSKI
Head of the Army's
800th Military Police Brigade
There has been some suggestion that the pictures were used for other interrogations, that these staged
photographs would be shown to new arrivals and they would be used as a kind of a cut to the chase
intimidation factor. This maybe your eventual situation unless you speak now.
CORBIN: So who were the Military Intelligence officers that the MPs claim ran the interrogations. A
separate investigation is now examining their role. But General Taguba identified two leaders of the 205th
Military Intelligence Brigade.
Reconstruction
He states that Colonel Thomas Papas, and Lieutenant Colonel Steve Jordan with others are:
"Directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib".
The military policeman Charles Graner is facing charges of assault and committing indecent acts with
prisoners. His lawyer believes that one of the photographs taken in block 1A is different and will prove that
military intelligence and others were directing abuse there.
WOMACK: Specialist Graner emailed this photograph to me from Iraq and prior to emailing it he
numbered all of the nine people pictured in the photograph. The first one at the very forefront wearing
black gloves with his hands on his hips is Specialist Graner himself and he's watching as they set the scene,
if you will, for this interrogation. Four and five were Military Intelligence officers, we believe of the rank
of either Specialist or Sergeant. Numbers seven and eight, you can see only their feet. These are Military
Intelligence officers of the rank of Staff Sergeant of Sergeant First Class. We have a photograph that was
actually taken and it was not set up by the Military Intelligence officers. They did not realise that they were
actually in this photograph.
CORBIN: The man bending over the Iraqis is believed to be one of several civilian interpreters working to
the intelligence officers.
GUY WOMACK
Spec. Graner's Civilian Attorney
Specialist Graner was directed to undress those prisoners, that is very explicit. He was told to have them lie
down on the floor and embrace themselves, and of course we can tell from the photograph that the civilian
intelligence employee number two, came over and grabbed him by the neck and was adjusting the power
himself to make sure the photograph was exactly as they wanted, that's very specific.
CORBIN: Taguba has identified two private civilian contractors as also:
"being responsible directly or indirectly for the abuse at Abu Ghraib"
John Israel, one of the civilians named by Taguba, worked for a subcontractor of Titan, a Californian
company which provides interpreters in Iraq. Taguba slammed Mr Israel for not having the required
military security clearances. A second civilian, Steven Stefanovitch, a former naval intelligence officer was
working for CACI, a private Washington company. He was an interrogator at the prison. The activities of
both CACI and Titan which worked closely together caused General Taguba deep concern.
"In general, US civilian contract personnel (Titan Corporation, CACI etc…) third country nationals
and local contractors do not appear to be properly supervised within the detention facility at Abu
Ghraib."
CORBIN: Taguba's report into Abu Ghraib which clearly identified Israel and Stefanovitch as responsible
for the abuses at the prison reached SenCom in March this year, but we have evidence that Stefanovitch
was still working at Abu Ghraib one month later.
Reconstruction
Joe Ryan, another CACI interrogator, kept a diary of his daily life at the prison. His entry for April 26th
2004, two days before the scandal broke, placed Stefanovitch still firmly at the prison.
STEFANOVITCH: "I've got to take the rest of the day off after our long booth time. This gave us a nice
evening, I got to play a round of golf. Scott Norman, Steve Stefanovitch and I all took turns trying to hit
balls over the back wall and onto the highway. We do what we can to make it fun here."
CORBIN: An American civilian contractor who worked with Mr Stefanovitch in Iraq told us the chain of
command in the prison was confused. This contractor also worked for CACI at the time.
CONTRACTOR: Contractors were generally under the command of military commanders on site.
However, this was not so evident as the majority of procedures were guided by the interrogators and
analysts themselves. The main focus of accountability to the command was what type of intelligence was
being generated, not about how it was being obtained. Let me just say to you that the actual monitoring of
the interrogations while they occurred there was minimal supervision as by and large interrogators were free
to conduct the interrogations as they saw fit.
CORBIN: Senators in Washington have demanded to know why the US was contracting out military
interrogations. They've demanded of the Defence Secretary himself why there appeared to be so little
control over these contractors.
Q: I'd like to know what agencies or private contractors were in charge of interrogations, did they have
authority over the guards and what were there instructions to the guards?
RUMSFELD: First, with respect to the…. We did not bring it. Oh my! It was all prepared. It was, indeed.
Q: Secretary Rumsfeld, in all due respect, you've got to answer this question and it could be satisfied with a
phone call. This is a pretty simple straightforward question. Who was in charge of the interrogations?
What agencies, and what.. or private contractors were in charge of the interrogations, did they have
authority over the guards and what were the instructions to the guards? This goes to the heart of this matter.
RUMSFELD: It does indeed.
CORBIN: The Taguba report blamed the abuses on a failure of leadership at Brigade level in Iraq, a lack of
training discipline and supervision. But others disagree and want to know if the Pentagon authorised the
unleashing of military intelligence officers at Abu Ghraib. As for the culpability of the MPs who claim they
were: "just following orders" there are apparently other pictures and videos which show rape scenes
involving US soldiers and Iraqi detainees.
Q: Did things happen in this prison to those Iraqi prisoners worse than what we've seen in these
photographs?
ENGLAND: Yes.
Q: Can you tell me about that?
ENGLAND: No.
CORBIN: There are reports of photographs showing England having consensual sex with multiple partners
in front of prisoners, acts which do not fit her explanation she was "only following orders". When the
photographs were released, they caused a wave of anger across the Middle East. Many felt that America
had lost it's moral authority.
SHAHRISTANI: I think these photographs have done the biggest service to the Al-Qaeda kind of people to
prove to them that their war against the US or the west is based on their upper moral values and this is how
these people look at the Muslims, this is how they treat Muslims, and I don't think that this should have
been allowed to happen.
CORBIN: The America President himself had to apologise to Iraqis and to Arab allies who supported
America's War on Terror.
PRESIDENT BUSH: Americans like me didn't appreciate what we saw, and it made us sick to our
stomachs.
MYERS: We regret very much that these events ever occurred and apologise to those who were victims of
the abuse.
CAMBONE: To those Iraqis who were mistreated by members of the US armed forces I offer my deepest
apology.
RUMSFELD: I offer my deepest apology.
SENATOR BEN NELSON: I don’t know how far up the chain of command it goes, but I sure want to find
out and that's what the investigation is going to do, and then I want to see those held responsible, and I
don’t want them all blaming it on seven army privates who are low level guys and trying to whitewash the
thing.
CORBIN: As the crisis has developed in recent days it's become clear that the abuses of Abu Ghraib are far
from unique in Iraq. The Red Cross has concerns about at least four other prisons.
And were the abuses that you noted in Iraq more widespread than just Abu Ghraib prison?
KRAHENBUHL: Yes, through the findings that we submitted it appears clearly that not only were these
patterns not limited to the acts of a few individuals acting simply in isolation, but also were clearly more
widespread throughout Iraq, there were other places of detention that we visited and there were references
to problems there that we reported in the same fashion.
CORBIN: As the investigations gather momentum far worse abuses are beginning to emerge in Iraq and
elsewhere. This photo shows a frozen corpse crudely wrapped in plastic. The man died at Abu Ghraib but
his identity is a mystery. Sergeant Ivan Frederick, one of the defendants in the Abu Ghraib case, began
keeping a secret diary once he knew he was being investigated, the following is thought to be a description
of the killing of the man in the photograph.
FREDERICK: Back around November another government agency's prisoner was brought to 1A. They
stressed him out so bad the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for
approximately 24 hours. The next day the medics came in and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake ID
in his arm and took him away. This OGA was never processed and therefore never had a number.
CORBIN: General Taguba's report speaks of "ghost detainees" people deliberately hidden from the Red
Cross and others, men and women in detention being interrogated who have no names, no numbers, no
existence in the system at Abu Ghraib.
"this manoeuvre was deceptive, contrary to army doctrine and in violation of international law."
CORBIN: The pattern of deaths, torture and abuse in US custody does not stop at the Iraqi border. In
Afghanistan thousands of people have been detained since the start of the war on terror. Bagram Airbase
near Kabul, the headquarters of the Coalition Forces in Afghanistan and site of one of the largest US
detention facilities. The British citizen, Tareq Dergoul, was held here for a month in 2002.
DERGOUL: I was interrogated at gunpoint, I was beaten by an interrogator, I was refused medical
treatment which led to my toe being amputated. I was stripped, searched, a full search was done on me,
pictures were taken. I was in a cage. You wasn't allowed to talk anywhere. I could see people opposite,
guys hung up by their hands, and they were screaming and shots were being fired, and this was every day.
CORBIN: A US military spokesman told us that detainees in Bagram are treated in accordance with the
spirit of the Geneva Conventions. The Pentagon says that the allegations made by released British
detainees about Guantanamo have not been found to be credible. Two Afghan men were killed in US
custody at Bagram in December 2002. A US military pathologist certified their deaths as homicide. A
criminal investigation into the deaths is still ongoing. The US has confirmed that 25 people have died in
suspicious circumstances since the start of the War on Terror, and Panorama has learnt of at least two other
deaths which do not feature on this list. The furore raised by the torture photographs has caused the Swiss
Government, guarantors of the Geneva Conventions, to formally remind the US and Britain there are no
exceptions which justify torture. But some in the Bush administration have challenged those conventions,
claiming they're outmoded in the post 9/11 world.
In your view you would not agree with those who say it's time effectively to go beyond the Geneva
Conventions, they are no longer appropriate for the War on Terror?
KRAHENBUHL: Well it's always a bit.. I think our view is we are absolutely ready to discuss implications
of new situations, we're not stubborn to the extent that we say we don’t see that there are.. that history
moves on and things, but what we say is, as long as we have a given legal framework in place, that is there,
it should be applied in good faith by all actors involved.
CORBIN: There are no six different US investigations, military and civilian underway to determine exactly
what went wrong at Abu Ghraib during the past nine months. Meanwhile the Red Cross has revealed to
Panorama that they still have concerns about the prison.
Have you had occasion to revisit Abu Ghraib since your report.. this report was put together, have their
been further visits?
KRAHENBUHL: Indeed in March this year, yes.
CORBIN: And are you satisfied with the conditions now in the prison?
KRAHENBUHL: We felt that some of the findings and recommendations that we submitted have been
taken seriously, that on some issues corrective measures were taken, but they remained areas of concern for
which we did request further measures to be taken and would continue to look at in follow up visits.
CORBIN: So areas of concern still in Abu Ghraib.
KRAHENBUHL: There were still certain areas of concern during our visit in March.
CORBIN: The Pentagon has vigorously denied press reports this week linking Donald Rumsfeld to the
chain of command responsible for authorising abuse at Abu Ghraib. They say there is no paper trail.
KARPINSKI: I have a part of the responsibility but I don’t think all of the truth is known yet, so I'm
waiting for the other individuals who will share that responsibility with me.
CORBIN: Mr Rumsfeld met General Miller in Iraq, the man who replaced General Karpinski. He's now in
charge of all Iraq's prisons. Donald Rumsfeld has made his apologies. Whatever the long-term damage to
America, he is convinced he will ride out this storm.
RUMSFELD: It's a fact, I'm a survivor.
_________
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