Sandy wrote:If you look at the website, the content is Biblical apologetics, and with few exceptions, most of the speakers appear to be addressing aspects of that topic. It is North Greenville University's conference, being held at FBC Spartanburg, I would guess because there is a relationship between the school, governed by South Carolina's Southern Baptists, and the church, which is the largest SBC church, close enough to the university to have some of its students, faculty and administrative staff among the membership. Regardless, just because the church hosts the conference doesn't constitute full endorsement of any of its political content by any of its individual members. Individual Baptists speak for themselves, their churches do not do it for them.

KeithE wrote: That such a political conference (with some religious content) is being held at a Baptist church (charging $69.95 for attendance, $49.95 for ages 11-23) is clearly outside of normal Baptist practice.

This is an interesting question. While I agree a church should not dictate political viewpoints on it’s members or recommend voting, I’m not against political discussions at church. In fact think it is most appropriate if (brace yourself) the religious instruction leads to helping the poor / marginalized / least of these, inveigning peace and non-retaliation, maintaining God’s creation, and healing people (health, or hurts) - in short are inline with Jesus’s teaching. I do not see how a consistent Christian view (following the lead of Jesus) can be squared with the general politically conservative viewpoints of:- “freedom" for corporations and the rich to further amass riches- nationalistic endeavors at the expense of or in retaliation to other nations- disregard for the environment via curtailing well constructed regulations- "materialism is good” or "prosperity gospel" (the American way)- “lock them up” attitudes with little attempt at rehabilitation

This Life and Liberty conference appears to be coalescing a “Christian” in name viewpoint with a Conservative political viewpoint even to the point of collecting money for attendance.

I know many herein with adamantly disagree, but so be it.

Informed by Data.Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.

KeithE wrote:This is an interesting question. While I agree a church should not dictate political viewpoints on it’s members or recommend voting, I’m not against political discussions at church. In fact think it is most appropriate if (brace yourself) the religious instruction leads to helping the poor / marginalized / least of these, inveigning peace and non-retaliation, maintaining God’s creation, and healing people (health, or hurts) - in short are inline with Jesus’s teaching. I do not see how a consistent Christian view (following the lead of Jesus) can be squared with the general politically conservative viewpoints of:- “freedom" for corporations and the rich to further amass riches- nationalistic endeavors at the expense of or in retaliation to other nations- disregard for the environment via curtailing well constructed regulations- "materialism is good” or "prosperity gospel" (the American way)- “lock them up” attitudes with little attempt at rehabilitation

I agree with that. I'd add a few things: -freedom for corporations and the rich to further amass riches at the expense of those who work for them or do business with them.-nationalistic endeavors at the expense of or in retaliation to other nations, particularly unqualified support for Israel based on faulty eschatology and an attiude of "they deserve it" when dismissing the human rights and sanctity of life of people who happen to hold a different religious belief.

KeithE wrote:This Life and Liberty conference appears to be coalescing a “Christian” in name viewpoint with a Conservative political viewpoint even to the point of collecting money for attendance.

I guess we will have to wait and see how the content plays out in order to make that determination. Certainly a few of the speakers are known for their blending of Christian perspectives wit the prosperity gospel, and extremist right wing politics, but most of them are involved in what I would call authentic apologetics ministries. North Greenville University has done similar events before, and has a well developed apologetics curriculum.

At any rate, the conference does not support Stephen's attempts at connections and links to individuals who, though they may be members of the church, are not involved in any way with the university or the conference.

FBC Sburg is infested with right wing strategists or has been over the years from my friend www.ginnybrant.com ; daughter of Nixon's sotuhern Strategist Harry Dent, to David Barton himself. Sam Currin the old Helms operative of the fights against the BJC on Pressler's behalf couldn't have in his wildest dreams concocted a more political event fo rthe Tea Party in the guise of "apologetics."

And just what kind of apologetics are we talking about. From Molly Worthen to Randall Balmer they have in the last 5 months been shown to be most suspect to put it mildly; from the "charlatan" Francis Scaheffer, to the "cabal of ginned up "abortion politics Balmer's reveals used against Jimmy Carter in 79 while a cagey Billy Graham looked the other way!--See a similarity to Pontius IPilate? Marshall Frady saw it more like Billy Budd.

So Sandy can be one of the longest necked ostriches of all time if he wants to be; I can't stop him.

Keith E if you want to drive me up, maybe we can work a deal where I go on Friday to hear Metaxas and you take in the Saturday events. Maybe Johnny Pierce wil let us do a report for Baps Today!!

Stephen Fox wrote:Keith E if you want to drive me up, maybe we can work a deal where I go on Friday to hear Metaxas and you take in the Saturday events. Maybe Johnny Pierce wil let us do a report for Baps Today!!

Can’t do Stephen, I’ll be in Europe (London to Rome) on a cruise on 5-6 Sept.

Read announcement in the Welcome Forum

Informed by Data.Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.

Stephen Fox wrote:And just what kind of apologetics are we talking about. From Molly Worthen to Randall Balmer they have in the last 5 months been shown to be most suspect to put it mildly; from the "charlatan" Francis Scaheffer, to the "cabal of ginned up "abortion politics Balmer's reveals used against Jimmy Carter in 79 while a cagey Billy Graham looked the other way!--See a similarity to Pontius IPilate? Marshall Frady saw it more like Billy Budd.

If you want to argue influence, you can't keep creating scenarios where you set up Worthen, Balmer and Frady against Schaeffer and Graham. It's no contest Stephen, they're lightweights in comparison, in terms of following, credibility, name recognition, influence, the whole package.

In fact, in those terms, most of the conference presenters have much more influence than Wothen-Balmer-Frady combined. Not worth discussing if Billy Graham is the subject.

Willie James Jennings in Religion Dispatches wrote:Any historian or sociologist could legitimately ask whether Christianity in America by its actual nature (not by its lofty claims) moves inextricably toward what we now have on the Republican side of Congress. But there is another way to see this moment, as the exposure of Christianity’s greatest counterfeit. I am not saying that the Republicans in Congress are not real Christians. Nor am I questioning the importance, commitment or legitimacy of their faith in the public square. The counterfeit here is the collective spirit, the shared attitude they exhibit together (like a church). That collective spirit has very little to do with the worship of a marginalized Jew, named Jesus, who came to free the poor and oppressed. This counterfeit Christian community worships power, desires control, and imagines the world revolving around self-sufficient men (and a few women).

I agree in principle, especially with the last sentence. But I have some difficulty determining whether many of the individuals who are in this particular Christian community were ever genuinely involved in "grass roots" Christian faith. I see people in this movement who "came into" the church at a later point in life, and almost immediately picked up the political influence. There's a lot of buy-in of specific interpretations of scripture, such as the faulty eschatology related to Israel, and other ideology that's not found in the scripture at all, blended in with principles and interpretations that are true, such as the sanctity of life, but incomplete in that it is only applied to abortion.

I'm a conservative evangelical who doesn't buy into very much of the right wing political agenda, and in fact, who sees it as bowing at the feet of wealth and power, and manipulating the church and using Christianity to achieve non-Christian ends that are, for the most part, abhorrent to a Holy God. And in so doing, I have discovered that there are other conservative evangelicals who are in the same camp, especially here where Anabaptist and Quaker influences are strong, and influential among members of churches beyond those denominational influences. As a result of my political views, and my religious perspective, I have considered converting to Quakerism because I share their theology of individual spiritual freedom, pacifism and non-violence, understanding of basic human rights, open ministry and communal sharing of resources related to basic human need.

I don't see the standard, right wing blend of Christianity and politics, as Jennings believes, as being the only Republican Christian view in Congress. I do, however, see that there is a collective spirit that does indeed worship power and desires control, and as a result, abuses and distorts Biblical teaching, resulting in the deceiving and misleading of churches which move away from their intended, Biblical mission and purpose, and become nothing more than political action committees.

Perhaps this particular apologetics conference gets into that, and perhaps it doesn't. But it's a far stretch to attempt to connect it to Billy Graham through his membership in FBC Spartanburg, which is involved only through the use of its building. I don't think anyone on the program is identified as being a member of that particular church.

I had some one on one conversations with Lowell Barron of the linked article and he is not Jesus Christ. In fact former Auburn President Muse, good friend of Wayne Flynt who I understand to be Bruce Gourley's major proff for his PHD, has reservations about Barron to put it mildly. Muse and I talked about it on one occasion at Samford.

That said, this provocative article calls for attention with such an august right wing tea party as is meeting at FBC Spartanburg in September:

Sara Posner who writes about the religious right recently had a piece about the pilgrimage of a Christian Coalition Southern Baptist at Religiondispatches.org. I sent her an email hoping she would cover the conference last weekend at Trey Gowdy and Billy Graham's FBC Sburg. I was hoping to go but had difficulties West of Cedartown, Georgia. I am looking for reports from the weekend sponsored by FBC Spartanburg, North Greenville College (think Shorter of Rome Ga in Upstate SC),Chic Fil A and the Chuck Colson Center and one suspects the Tea Party of SC and maybe even the Koch Brothers.

Pay Day Loan schemes have an origin in Spartanburg. Would be interesting to see if that was on the agenda or immigration reeform.