George Carlin is right about a lot of things, including the fact that being born American was pure dumb luck. What made it good luck rather than bad luck seems to be something he’d rather not think about too deeply.

…there are ‘critics’ of america who are too self centered as to look around this world & realize that by comparison, the freedom & opportunity we have here is vast…while no friend of the hypocrite, the ‘message’ carlin is sending out is more or less “learn to better enjoy the freedom we do have”…

…carlin is critical of behavioral practices that are illogically time honored & create divisiveness when it need not be that way…i see part of carlin’s ‘message’ as “don’t waste your human resources, america, physically, mentally or emotionally”…i find that to be a very logical “glad to live in america” form of thought…

…there has always been a lot of semantic wordplay in carlin’s routines, thus the whole shtick about the censoring of the famous ‘seven dirty words you can’t say on television’ which initially drew ire from local forms of government when performed in live venues…that initiated a nice little freedom of speech issue w/ the supreme court, that has ultimately evolved to the point wherein all forms of broadcast media have greater freedom…

…& in case you’re wondering, although i wasn’t born here, i’m very pro-american because of her people…various administrations i’ve witnessed, nahhhh, not so much…

…but this country allows something i believe in…i may not agree w/ your opinion, but i will staunchly defend your right to express it…

“I’m proud to be an American, that doesn’t come from anything with accident of birth. Those of you who don’t understand that won’t understand why.”

I call bullshit on that.

The point Carlin is trying to make is saying “Proud to be American” or “Proud to be Irish” or even “Proud to be Maori” is YOU didn’t CHOOSE to be born in the US, you were born here because you were born here, not to some dirt-farming collective in Zimbabwe or some Ultra-rich Swiss family.
You just HAPPENED to be born in the US.

I could have easily been “Proud to be Swedish” since my mom is. I could have been saying “Proud to be german” if I was born a hundred years ago. Im guessing you’re not 100% Native American, so look at it with some historical perspective… Where did YOUR family come from? England? Spain? Bratislava? Who the fuck knows.

Yes, your family like so many others chose to move to the US way back when to get a leg up out of the shit-hole they were in. Maybe they wanted a change. Maybe they were brought over as slaves; the point is, be proud of something you have accomplished not something that happened by chance.

It’s so easy to be “proud” to be an American, but for some reason it’s still considered a virtue. Most virtues are at least kind of hard to do: not go into debt, love your neighbor even though he’s an idiot, and so forth. But anybody can be patriotic — in fact it’s kind of hard not to, because it comes so naturally. And the more flags you wave around, the more loudmouthed you are about your patriotism, the more angrily you denounce anyone who suggests there is the slightest thing amiss in the U.S.A., the better.

The difficult thing to do is what Carlin suggests: question your country, work to make it better, and examine the underlying ideologies and mythologies that create blind spots, crushing class divisions, and dead Iraqi schoolchildren.

You can be proud of your country and do both things. Anybody who says Carlin isn’t a patriot isn’t listening to him.

It’s easy to understand why some people, especially those that contribute to this blog aren’t proud to be an American, because they’re not proud OF America.

When I say I’m proud to be an American, I say that I’m proud of this country, and I’m proud to be part of this country and it’s history. Some of see American as an over all good place and thing, others don’t.

You can call bullshit all you want. But you’re obviously not proud to be an American, because you’re not proud OF America. Neither is Carlin or most of the leftists.

You see American as a bad place, but still you prefer to stay.

I now expect you to go ahead an list the reasons why you think America is a bad place, and I’m sure you can list many. Because that’s what you focus on when you picture America. Well, we see those things too… but we don’t focus on them.

Call bullshit all you want, but saying “Proud to be Irish” on St. Patty’s day, is far different from saying “Pround to be an American” every day.

Patriotism has no meaning. You can run for congress or blow up the congress and still claim to be a patriot. You can raise the flag or burn the flag, pay your taxes or not pay your taxes, send you kids to private school or public school or take any opinion or action you want for or against the people or government of this country and still call yourself a patriot.

You can promote the overthrow of the government and encourage the invasion of this country from another country and STILL claim to be a patriot.

OK Bikepunk… what about the people who CHOOSE to come and live here. They chose to leave wherever they were from and immigrate to this country. Can they say they are proud to be an American?

I hear what KG’s sayin’. I’m not very proud of America recently. Our administrations behavior towards some other countries baffles me and I find it a complete embarrassment. I get very nervous when flashing my passport overseas these days.

It seems that you are saying that “leftists”, those who point out our country’s shortcomings, are not “proud of America” or “proud to be American”. You are mistaken. People like me and George Carlin are passionately proud of the fact that our country is based on the ideals that the founding fathers recorded in the Constitution and etc. What we are not proud of, and what Carlin uses as fodder for comedy, are the perversions of those ideals. Perversions that the current administration has exploited to get the fucked up shit done that they want to do. I am not proud of what they’ve done in MY country’s name. They’re fucking it up, shitting all over the reasons this country is something to be proud of and it pisses people off. Even “leftists”.

Having lived outside the US for a large part of my life (but I don’t know if I should count my time living in Canada as actually “outside” the country, for the majority of the time I was never even out of TV range of US programming) I feel I have a basis of comparison between the US and other countries in the world. Up until the Carter administration, this was the best country in the world, I know Nixon screwed things up royally, but he got caught, and things got fixed by Ford. Then Carter began the “Nanny state” that always knew better than the guy that was actually out there on the street or in the job site. Somehow it became the gov’t’s job to save us from ourselves, giving us helmet laws, seatbelt laws, and carcinogenic cannons aimed at our faces and chests in our cars (airbags), while not actually providing any decrease in loss of life comensurate with the loss of liberty. Freedom has been declared “too dangerous” for teenagers, as their 1st Ammendment rights have been gutted (a teenager over 18 was suspended for displaying a “Bong hits 4 Jesus” banner outside of school, HS publications have been shut down for publishing true articles that contradictted the official Repugnican party line, the list just goes on forever) 4th Ammendment rights against search and seizure are non-existant in public school.

And still, although we are losing ground rapidly, this is still the best country in the world. I fear for our future, but I also have hope for the future.

…throughout this discussion, there have been some valuable, intelligent points made & even some beautiful thoughts shared about what it means to have the freedom we’re privileged to enjoy in this country…

…& part of this discussion is like trying to push water uphill w/ out a container…

It is suppose to be funny. I think there is some slight sacarism going on. The dude aint running for president, he is trying to make people laugh. And if you can’t laugh at yourself, you shouldn’t be laughing at all.

I’m no longer in uniform, but that doesn’t make me a cheerleader. There are things wrong (dreadfully, desperately wrong) with this country that need fixing. But there are also the fact that we basically got it right when we got things started back in 1776 and 1787.

I just want people to consider all this nonsense. Lapel Pins, flag-waving rah-rah bullshit, what it means to be a ‘Proud American.’ and how we as the public are being manipulated by the guys at the top to go after each other instead of looking at how we are all getting screwed in many ways.

I have no problem telling people I’m American, and I have no hesitation in showing my passport over here. Most people understand that Bush does not equal Americans or America in general.

When pressed about going back to the US in general, I respond… ‘Maybe, but right now, it’s not the same country I grew up in anymore. It’s gone too far from what made it the best place on earth; too far from what people and countries aspired to be…”

In case some of you have been watching the final 4 more than the news, the US said a big F-U to the Geneva Conventions and said torture was fine, as well as a plethora of other shit we openly (and hypocritically) declare as wrong in/with other countries. So yeah, I’m not too proud of the turn america has taken in the last 2 decades. Doesn’t mean I think it should be blown up, razed or thrown into a nuclear holocaust in hopes that Jeebus blesses us MORE than the rest of the planet his Dad shit out his ass. (Can you tell I’m an Atheist…?)

Rampant patriotism is a hair’s step away from Nationalism, and that is NEVER a good thing. I’m just saying. We aren’t as bad as say our best buddies Saudi Arabia with their beheadings, lack of freedom of speech or like China with the whole Tibet bullshit. On the contrary, if we want to spread democracy as the R side of the field claims, shouldn’t we be doing the old “Lead by example” rather than all the horrible shit we have been ?

This goes further back than 2000 and Shrub, but Reagan, Bush I and Bush II have done more with their collective 20 years than Clinton did in his 8. So yeah, in general I blame Republicans and their flag-waving patriotic bullshit, but the spineless Dems and their battered-wife syndrome attitudes have let us slip this far into the chasm that we need to get out of. That is my final blathering on this thread.

I dont understand the statement ” America is the best country in the world”

A: How does one know this…?
B: On what basis is this exclaimation made?.
C: was there a contest ?.
D: How / when did the USA acheive “Best Status”
E: Does this cost the tax payer money?
F: Who or what panel of people determined this, and when?.

There was a race to see which country could imprison the highest percentage of it’s population and the U.S. won. I.e., it’s “the best…” (…country to be a private prison contractor in).

In all seriousness, I think excessive nationalism/patriotism is a problem in any nation that hopes to be democratic, because it’s hard to be a responsible citizen, and at the same time be unwilling to see — let alone work to repair — genuine problems.

The term ‘patriot’ in current usage seems to suggest someone who favors authoritarian government, allowing authority figures to act outside the law, stifling dissent and free speech, unreasonable searches and seizures, torture, and any number of things that run directly opposite to what the U.S. Constitution supports. Go figure.

much of this discussion went way the hell over my ‘ittle ‘ead. but.
“Being Proud to be an American doesn’t mean it’s the best country in the world.

I’m proud of my kids, they’ don’t get the best grades, aren’t sports stars, sometimes make wrong choices and get me upset, but they’re good kids and good people.”
seems well said.
Nice active discussion, Thanks BikePunk, and Jonny for providing a forum where such dissenting opinions can touch base with each other. and still have something in common.
Booze, bikes, broads.

“Does that mean you are forgainst whatever everyone else is forgainst? treatise on the Spanish Civil War huh?”

Mr. Humpty, et al-

Fair question, sir. I am reasonably well-informed but politically moderate. I live in the deepest blue dempublican county in the nation (King County WA) and sometimes they embarrass me. That president Bush sometimes embarrasses me is a non sequitur- obvious. My cash dollars go to environmental causes, something I feel is a positive effort. I’d be delighted to elaborate. Ahem.

Chomsky was brilliant. It was complex, but the anarchists (a brand of communism) ran the entire country of Spain for about a year. Grain collectives and shit. Then the Stukas came. For that part, check out E. Hemingway, _For_Whom_The_Bell_Tolls_. Also completely fucking brilliant. Cyclists in particular will like that one, as Hemingway was a believer in macho suffering for important causes like city limit sign sprints.

Mikey; This rather conservative administration, under your definition, is positive because they are right(ists). However this reign was one of fear . Fear, my friend, is the little dark room where negatives develop.

Spin this is a positive for the ol US of A:

Where there is no freedom, there is death and destruction.

How about:

Terrorist activity is continually recurring in various parts of the world, sowing death and destruction and plunging many of our brothers and sisters into grief and despair

And then there is this one for you to ponder personally:

Nine times out of ten, and argument ends with each of the contestants more firmly convinced than ever that he’s absolutely right.

“Mikey; This rather conservative administration, under your definition, is positive because they are right(ists). However this reign was one of fear . Fear, my friend, is the little dark room where negatives develop.”

Mr. Butthead, et al-

I’m not sure I can characterize the current administration as ‘conservative,’ but let me address your central point:

“Living in fear is just another way of dying before your time.” -Drive-by Truckers

What are you afraid of? I’m not afraid of the current administration. I’m not afraid of terrorists. I’m not afraid of TSA or whoever is lately chiseling away at our perceptions of Personal Liberty [sic]. I have as much liberty as I have ever have. If you live in fear, they (President Shrub & the Islamist fundies) have won.

What a lot of folks bitch about here and elsewhere is just partisan politics. If you think the Repmocrats and Dempublicans are fundamentally different, or ‘good’ or ‘bad,’ that’s your choice. Partisan bickering is not the way through to utopia. It’s unnecessarily divisive and negative. The way I see it, there are too many rats in the cage, and that’s not going to change any time soon. My little corner of the cage is quite nice, thanks. Ride on.

Main Entry: my·o·pia
Pronunciation: \m?-??-p?-?\
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek my?pia, from my?p-, my?ps
Date: circa 1752
1 : a condition in which the visual images come to a focus in front of the retina of the eye resulting especially in defective vision of distant objects
2 : a lack of foresight or discernment : a narrow view of something

I saw Carlin in York, PA in 2006. He was awesome. He had the crowd in his hands with dick jokes and such. Then he spoke his wisdom and the whole place got quiet. You could hear a pin drop when he said his piece on fat people (i.e. most of the people in attendence). Just when you thought people were gonna walk (waddle) out, he picked ’em back up with more standard dirty humor. He’s a master of his craft and not afraid to build real topics into his routine and deliver them on target. I hope he made people question themselves as well as others. He sure as fuck made them laugh. I love that man.