This is proof tiers are overrated and Makoto is underrated. She's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than people give her credit for.

And this is pointing it out to the a-sholes when Flash Metroid was doing this same thing to people and they were like "Oh its cause his competition sucks!" AndyOCR is the sh!t and Justin beats him down with Makoto.

I don't think their point is that tier lists don't exist, it's that they are overvalued. If two equal players are doing Seth vs. Gief, it'll be a ~ 7/3 match-up. However, the ideal of "equal players" is almost actually unheard of. People are very rarely actually equal. If the Gief player is just a better player than the Seth player, he'll win the majority of those matches.

@hitstick. You're retarded if you think tiers have no sway in a match and it only depends on the player. Sure the player has a lot to do with it but calling character matchups "nonesense" is just stupid. Even the best player can succumb to a bad matchup.

People argue about the balance of SF and Tekken. The fact that bad match ups exist in SF4 proves that it isn't balanced. You can't have both. At least in Tekken, you can pick any character at random and punish frame data accordingly.

I think it comes down to winning. People who go to tournaments regularity will value tiers because they want to win. Look at it from a NY Yankees stand point, we want to win and we'll get the best players to do it no matter what the cost. Which is way you see Ryu's, Rufus', Sagat's, Chun's, etc. at US tourneys. They want to win, and they're not going to do it with characters they think won't get the job done (Makoto, Guy, Vega, DAN, etc.) Justin, for example, plays with low tier characters casually. BUT, he's going to stick to Rufus if he really wants to win. However, people who play with low tier characters at tourneys I think have an any given Sunday mind set. That if they work hard enough, they can win with any character, and that on any Sunday, the Detroit Lions can beat the Indy Colts... or in this case, Makoto vs Bison.

meh...not as good as her 3rd strike counter-part, but i think she shouldnt be rated low teir. people thought Adon was poop, and now look we have a bunch of scrubs trying to "ride the wave", just because they saw GB kicking ass with him.

btw just throwing this out there. Bison is NOT top teir. 2 years ago the list came out for SF4 which had Bison in 2nd place (next to Sagat). then after a while they found out he was mid-teir at most. sooner or later people will find out that Bison is once again, mid-teir...where he so rightfully belongs.

Now we are gonna see everyone jump on the makoto pipe since jwong is using her. The Fix for makoto would be to make her Ex Hayate go through fireballs, Tsurugi should be an overhead and should break Focus attacks.

I can see this now on live and PSN they are gonna mimic him down to the color.

@29 No that's wrong actually. It's well balanced, you clearly haven't played it. Juggles come of launchers which come from you mucking up which comes from you being the worse player, fair. I think MYK said you can win with anyone but you'd have to be the best in the world to do it with Zafina.

It doesn't REALLY prove that Makoto isn't low tier. JWong can beat lots of people w/lots of chars, he's just that good. I'll believe Makoto is better when I start seeing more Makotos winning tourneys (with good players)

Makoto is still low tier all because you see Justin winning with her doesn't mean you can produce the same results. Makoto has a lot more bad match ups than good. Tier list does matter if players are on a equal level. If you're on a higher level than everyone else, it probably doesn't matter as much.

@29 jamheald is right, Tekken has come a very long way when it comes to being balanced, sure, its about juggles, but every character can juggle so your point on it bein unbalanced is pretty void.

and regarding tiers in general, we only have problems with them because certain characters are underrated; people say some characters are overrated but imo in a fighting game characters are only overrated due 2 the fact that others are underrated. the people who make tiers have to devote enormous amounts of time in their main 2 or maybe 3 characters and never go in depth with others to know the true ins and outs about them, and this will always be the problem with tiers. obviously there are always 1 or 2 really bad match ups, but in general most characters have allot more potential than tiers show.

This doesn't prove that Makoto isn't low tier. Just because a character has good mix-ups or tricks doesn't mean they're good. SSF4 is a game where reversals will dominate just about anything. A smart/well-placed reversal can potentially lead to 50% damage. Mix-ups are too easily shut down in SSF4. This does show Makoto is a little bit better than what people originally thought, but not by much. She will still get dominated by just about every other character.

people are gonna get all hype after a few wins? Where was makato at evo? They did the same thing with "low" tier characters in regular sf4 and it didnt prove anything since they arent gonna be used when it counts. ANd still, it doesnt make her gaping holes in her gameplay simpley go away. Its nice to see but nothing to get excited about.

I like how everyone ignored #12 comments whens he's pretty much right I'm not really Impressed with his use of Makoto since he's not fighting zoning characters have him take on Guile, Dhalsim etc. then we will see what Makoto has to offer in the hands of J. Wong.

yea she does have alot of bad matchs but then again that bison/balrog could have played more agressively. Once u pin her down alot of her stuff goes out the window, and if u have a commando slam(ochio,tornado,etc) her life becomes that much more miserable since just about all of them out range her throw. Im no expert but i dont see many fights that makato doesnt have something she needs to worry about.

@48 Exactly show me a J.Wong video using only Makoto against some of these command throw or fireball characters and then we will see it's just funny how Makoto's online love to try and rushdown Gief when she can poke him to death

@52 That's a pretty broad statement. A lot of people know when they've been beaten fairly. I don't know very many top players who blame the match-up. You're referring to a large group that doesn't play professionally. The players that blame their loss on the match-ups are the ones who never get anywhere except online matches.

there one thing people like to look over with tier lists. it's accurate when the two people playing are of the same skill. that's when advantages/disadvantages occur. since tier lists are like the ten commandments to some, they might want to remember that fact.

When it comes to balance tekken is up there also because nobody has an ability that is broken and don't bring up juggle sh1t cause everybody can do it not just one character true some characters have longer juggles than others the fact that there isn't one move that changes the game and make it unfair makes the game fair take blazblue for example in calamity trigger the characters like v-13 and arakune can zone and its hard for other characters to get around that cause nobody had anti projectile moves so in tekken there is no one strategy that wins the match which makes it quite balanced

Not very impressive imo but he still did well. And for those who say that characters with fb and zoners like sim are her worst match up think again. (Sim is her only even match up on the tier list). Both Rog and Bison are to of her worst match ups. But she isnt as bad as the tier list says, it say she has 33 bad match ups and 1 even one and i at least think there should be a few more even ones....

And @ the guy who asked if mashing jab stop most of her moves...no she has a couple options for jab mashers so u gotta play smarter than that..

omg i hate when people start talking about tiers. u mean to tell me since some "high lvl" players made a list based on supposed same skill that it means i cant win with a certain character against other supposed "high tier" characters? thats the DUMBEST thing ive ever heard. AND how the hell is some one ELSE gonna tell ME who MY best and wosrt match ups are. you guys are a bunch of phuckin puppets man. go a head and let some other person tell YOU that YOU cant win cause ur using vega or makoto or dan. every player in the US cant make it to evo so you wont see that many "low tier" characters from others cause they dont go to tourneys. stop suckin on top player meat an be your own frakin person damn.

@66: There are things such as slow news days. Not every day has a new character announcement for MvC3. As for filler, this is pretty solid. They were decent videos of seeing a character you don't see often being used at a high level. I don't think I'd ever complain of EH posting too much, unless I had a hard time keeping up with stories, which it would have to output at least 10x as many stories for that to be an issue.

those were pretty good matches...i wish someone would show t hawk some love though....been messing around with him lately and he's a lot of fun to play with when u know what you're doing and win consistently....but i guess that's the case with everyone else in the roster....

Lol saying gamerbee is very scrubby is a very bold move..Yes most of what he did was jag kick and netural jump with what i believe is HK. But he did it very efficiently. He didnt just spam Jag kick he did it with some beastly reaction ( im reffering more to his match with Ross cuz the reason wong lost i believe was a straight up choke). .. It's not just random moves he was doing....and also the reason he may look similar to random online Adons now is because of the fact that many of them imitate his play style now with the netrual jump HK. and other tricks he did.

Way I see it, Makoto is the worst character in the game. BUT that doesn't mean she isn't good. SSFIV is balanced so that the worst can compete with some of the best depending on the skill of the player.

I don't think it really matters who Justin Wong uses: the only character he'll ever take to using seriously in a big name tournament is invariably Rufus. He went through a Battlefield Arcadia using Fei Long in vanilla and won and he pretty much did that for kicks and giggles and that's a smaller stage in the SF scene where he can afford to do that. It shouldn't be that whatever Justin uses qualifies as an instant endorsement of the character.

pretty good Makoto, she can be very annoying once she gets in on you. I'm sure that alot of ppl was blindsided by Justin picking Makoto and probably don't know the matchup all that well, you can see AndyOCR catching on to Makoto's tricks later on.

@KineticPoet: You're basing an opinion for the entire gaming community on a few players that you know? I've met a fair share of great players and they don't bitch and moan about losing due to a match-up. If they truly believed the match-up caused them the game, they would focus on a different character with better match-ups. Don't base the whole community on some parts that you have experience with.

This vid certainly convinced me how poor Makoto is and how much you have to outplay your opponent to get a victory. Didn't see a single fukiage either. She's a sitting duck and lacks tools. And I don't play Makoto or have a vested interest in blaming my losses on tiers or seeing her buffed. I just, you know, have eyes. I can see what kind of play she has to resort to to prevail. All the vid proved is that she can prevail. People need to stop leaping from the truth that 'player skill can transcend great odds', to the falsehood that 'matchups are meaningless'. Regardless of the accuracy of a given tier list, the properties of the character still have their say in giving the character greater or fewer options.

I think people who say there is no tier list or whatever is misunderstanding the purpose of the tier list. The tier list is not an end-all match decider, and a bad match-up does NOT mean that the player with the worse character loses automatically. A bad match-up simply means that the player has to be better/work harder than the opponent to win. There will always be tiers, because it's impossible to have a perfectly balanced game with a wide variety of characters, especially when some characters have strategies that specifically counter another kind of strategy that other characters favor.

That said, I think Makoto has some potential, but she really needs more options for getting in. Sure, she's sort of good once she scores a knockdown, but she's going to have a ton of trouble getting that knockdown to begin with. Some players might get psyched out at first, but people who know the match-up reasonably well are going to give her nightmares.

#72 I really f**kin hope that was a joke.You cannot punish blocked jaguar kicks after they connect because they recover in 1-2 frames, and the reason why wong didnt punish them in start up is because Gamerbee kept changing the timing on when he was gonna do them. Why do you think wong did u2 twice randomly, because he tried to predict when gamerbee was gonna do his jaguar kicks, but he kept varying them. Neutral is an amazing asset of his too, roundhouse has amazing priority and is an overhead. Wong tried punishing it and suffered round losses for it. A scrubby online adon uses jaguar tooth to get in(terrible priority, gets stopped by any normal or special) and then either throws or rising jaguar after. A real adon pressures constantly with mix up timings on his jaguar kick and mixes in neutral jump pressure using IA jaguar kicks to get his opponent to the corner where you can pretty much do anything you want safely unless you get caught by a random move.

Also, how the hell is GB gonna beat Daigo in the double digits by plaiyng a scrubby Adon, if anything he might win 1-2 by fluke because of lack of knowledge, but he kept adapting to Daigo's style.Same goes for the salty sweet tourny for $100 entry, he kept adapting to everyone and diversifying his game to mess with people's head, eventually winning the tournament.I main Adon, and based on your terrible lack of knowledge I'm pretty certain mine is better than yours. Gamerbee is AMAZING with Adon, right now he's easily the best in the world with this new character.

On topic: Makoto is so entertaining to watch :), shes like viper when it comes to all out aggresion once youre inside.

Makoto IMO is one of the most fun characters to play.. However, it is true that I have to work A LOT more harder to win a round with her. Especially against those people who turtle or play a good zoning game.

Her normals are actually really good. However, her DP (can't remember how to spell it lol) is pretty bad. I don't remember ever connecting it often, using the MP or HP versions are too slow to use thus not making it very reliable. The LP version is okay but still unreliable if the opponant safe jumps.

Her command grab has terrible range and too much recovery time if you whiff. I actually think that this is the ONLY thing that needs to be buffed in order for Mak to be bumped up the tier list..!

Mak is definitely lowest tier. But it doesn't mean that its impossible to win with her. Just means that some of her specials need to be buffed considering how unrealiable they are.

been using me some makoto lately. also gouken and dan. her quick mk aerial kick is such a bad ass move. im surprised that she is the lowest on the tiers though. and yes tiers do play a small role in the match up. if it says seth is a better match up against gief it doesnt mean that he will always win it means he has a MOVE/TECHNIQUE advantage over him. anyhow i think makoto will get a little respect now.

Justin Wong is a very good player, every character despite tier ranking is capable of winning. This wasn't just a few select videos, look at his win count, he's clearly winning consistently. That doesn't make Makoto top tier, that doesn't mean she sucks, it means Justin is a good player who used good technique and mind games (not to mention no one really knows how to defend against many of the new characters yet) and got the wins. Good videos to display a bit of what she might look like at that level.

@spidii: While I do agree with much of what you're saying, the win count doesn't really mean anything. The former matches could've been played with Rufus or something. Other than that I think you're pretty much right.

@#103 jmeNo, tiers are based on top players of the same skill. They were never based on averages, or else cheap/easy tactics characters (like Ryu, Akuma) would be even higher and characters that rely too much on footsies (like Chun Li, Rufus) would be lower.

Anyway, the key part is "of the same skill". Putting JWong against other players who (albeit very respected in the community) aren't nearly as good has no meaning for the tier list.