We had a long, long, long drawn out discussion on Christmas on the IW board starting here.

IMHO... yeah, we can have a discussion about the history of the holiday, and we can delve into how it's a pagan holiday that the Church decided to take in and alter for various reasons, and we can go into the entire "it's too commercial" thing and debate that and all...

But really, does any of it really matter? I mean, really, it's a holiday. There's no holiday contract that I'm aware of that says that if want to celebrate it, you have to celebrate it in a certain manner.

Be in some general goodwill towards man, cool. Be it some religious significance, cool. If you want to go and do the pagan thing, cool. Or if you just want to go shopping and blow some money, I'm down with that too.

Just don't get on a high horse and tell other people that they're doing it wrong. Nothing's worse than a condescending wanna-be intellectual.

Christmas is infact two separate holidays, which happen to both occur on the same day and have the same name for some unfathomable reason.

The first is a religious celebration, placed at the end of the year by some clergymen or other, to represent the birth of Jesus Christ. Why they thought this was necessary is beyond me. It's celebrated weakly by most Christian families, and wholly by mostly zealots and bible beaters.

The second, and more relevant, is a commercial celebration based somewhat off the old pagan Yule, the purpose of which is to make merry and be with one's family, and of course to buy lots of crap of various kinds. It has nothing to do with religion of any kind, and is celebrated throughout the world by Christians and non-Christians alike.

I happen to subscribe to the second, and couldn't give a crap about the first.

There. I've said it. And now I'm going to put this on a text file for future reference with anyone who wants to argue about the holiday with me.

The Jesus presented in the Gospels more than likely is. If he existed at all -- which is a matter of debate -- he wasn't born a virgin, he didn't perform miracles, and probably did nothing more than preach and get dead -- in other words, any Jesus that existed isn't the one being celebrated.

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3. My point was that people don't celebrate his birthday, they celebrate the holiday itself.

It's quite possible to celebrate Christmas without giving a damn about God or Jesus at all. Many people just see it as a time for family, togetherness, presents, or -- if you're a cynic -- commercialism.

We had a long, long, long drawn out discussion on Christmas on the IW board starting here.

IMHO... yeah, we can have a discussion about the history of the holiday, and we can delve into how it's a pagan holiday that the Church decided to take in and alter for various reasons, and we can go into the entire "it's too commercial" thing and debate that and all...

But really, does any of it really matter? I mean, really, it's a holiday. There's no holiday contract that I'm aware of that says that if want to celebrate it, you have to celebrate it in a certain manner.

Be in some general goodwill towards man, cool. Be it some religious significance, cool. If you want to go and do the pagan thing, cool. Or if you just want to go shopping and blow some money, I'm down with that too.

Just don't get on a high horse and tell other people that they're doing it wrong. Nothing's worse than a condescending wanna-be intellectual.

Hey, I'm not trying to say anything. It is just a funny song I heard. It basically inserted Jesus into a whole bunch of Christmas songs. It was humorous. Funny, haha.

The Jesus presented in the Gospels more than likely is. If he existed at all -- which is a matter of debate -- he wasn't born a virgin, he didn't perform miracles, and probably did nothing more than preach and get dead -- in other words, any Jesus that existed isn't the one being celebrated.

The Jesus presented in the Gospels more than likely is. If he existed at all -- which is a matter of debate -- he wasn't born a virgin, he didn't perform miracles, and probably did nothing more than preach and get dead -- in other words, any Jesus that existed isn't the one being celebrated.

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3. My point was that people don't celebrate his birthday, they celebrate the holiday itself.

It's quite possible to celebrate Christmas without giving a damn about God or Jesus at all. Many people just see it as a time for family, togetherness, presents, or -- if you're a cynic -- commercialism.

Well you must remember that although you yourself may not believe that Jesus ever existed, his existence is a foundation of belief for a very large portion of the world. Your viewpoints are your veiwpoints, but don't try to present them as facts. No ones trying to push Jesus on you, so you don't need to discredit anyone elses views.

Also this whole discussion really has nothing to do with what the thread started out as. It's funny, we laugh. Thats about it.

The Jesus presented in the Gospels more than likely is. If he existed at all -- which is a matter of debate -- he wasn't born a virgin, he didn't perform miracles, and probably did nothing more than preach and get dead -- in other words, any Jesus that existed isn't the one being celebrated.