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I thought this ebook may be of interest to some here, a number of people prominent in the OBE field providing a variety of perspectives on consciousness and the out of body experience, it also touches on NDE's and lucid dreams. This has just been published and made available as a free ebook online which I thought was cool (download link below).

"Consciousness Beyond the Body’ presents the latest theories, research, and applications of out-of-body experiences (OBEs) and other consciousness states that transcend the limitations of one’s physical body space. It features original chapters from leading international researchers, educators, and practitioners who specialise in OBEs. As a modern compilation on the topic, the book aims to meld contemporary scientific evidence with the latest and most compelling practical applications of OBEs."

A more detailed description on this book by the editor can be found below.

I've downloaded and intend to read it... looks like a pretty good read.

Although... Chapter 10 (Robert Waggoner's section), and his proposition he puts forward really caught my eye, because it's exactly what I go on about here and in my own book. The idea that consciousness isn't neatly labeled and the consciousness continuum of the levels of awareness.

The idea that consciousness isn't neatly labeled and the consciousness continuum of the levels of awareness.

True Robert does say that. But I have communicated with him via email a few times now and he says Lucid Dreaming and Astral Projection are two completely different things. So, he does still use "labels". He puts them in 2 completely different categories.

This quote below here is exactly why I believe that "labels" are still needed. True OBEs, LDs and conscious APs are all "non ordinary states of consciousness", but their mode of transportation still differentiates them into different groupings per say.

"Similarly, when you read a self-report on a lucid dreaming forum of someone falling asleep, who begins to feel humming or buzzing and energy around the body, possibly sees wispy arms composed of silver looking light, and then floats above the bed consciously aware, then please ask yourself, “does this meet the definition of a lucid dream? Did this person realise within a dream that he or she was dreaming?”. If not, the experience simply fails to meet the definition of a lucid dream, just as having a heart attack on the operating table and floating up to the ceiling fails to meet the definition of a lucid dream." Robert Waggoner

« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 21:24:05 by Lumaza »

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“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence. To understand the true nature of the universe, one must think it terms of energy, frequency, and vibrati

“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence. To understand the true nature of the universe, one must think it terms of energy, frequency, and vibrati

True Robert does say that. But I have communicated with him via email a few times now and he says Lucid Dreaming and Astral Projection are two completely different things. So, he does still use "labels". He puts them in 2 completely different categories.

This quote below here is exactly why I believe that "labels" are still needed. True OBEs, LDs and conscious APs are all "non ordinary states of consciousness", but their mode of transportation still differentiates them into different groupings per say.

"Similarly, when you read a self-report on a lucid dreaming forum of someone falling asleep, who begins to feel humming or buzzing and energy around the body, possibly sees wispy arms composed of silver looking light, and then floats above the bed consciously aware, then please ask yourself, “does this meet the definition of a lucid dream? Did this person realise within a dream that he or she was dreaming?”. If not, the experience simply fails to meet the definition of a lucid dream, just as having a heart attack on the operating table and floating up to the ceiling fails to meet the definition of a lucid dream." Robert Waggoner

Yup, he still does focus a bit too much on labels... but his research seems to be going in the right direction.

In the end, I still think he hasn't taken a far enough step back to gain a larger perspective on all these experiences. Metaphorically speaking, he's stuck with his nose up against a canvas, not able to see the whole painting... focused so exclusively in on just one small aspect.

Most people haven't realized that "the map isn't the territory". The major players doing the research are focusing on the wrong parts of the experience instead of the experience as a whole. Breaking it down by HOW you get INTO the non-physical or what certain things (ie: control the environment or fly) while you're non-physical... those are all simply properties of an experience and can't be used to define the experience itself. The ONLY thing that we should be focusing on is our awareness and how the shift in our awareness causes our interpretations of our experiences to change drastically.

Throughout that chapter, he talks a lot about that "shifting of awareness" during our day and how that equates to our non-physical experiences. He's LITERALLY on the cusp of putting it all together, but he hasn't backed away far enough from the canvas to figuring it out.

You'll never convince me that the labels we predominately use are needed beyond the very most basic, rudimentary manner for discussing this stuff. They only serve to hold people back and are a self-imposed limitation.

You'll never convince me that the labels we predominately use are needed beyond the very most basic, rudimentary manner for discussing this stuff.

...and yet this very Forum here has Sub-Forums which lead to labelling each on of these "modes" of transportation individually.

What do you think would happen if we had a individual titled Sub-Forum here for each one of these "modes" titled/labelled Lucid Dreaming, OBEs and Conscious Shifting (aka Phasing)? Would it be more confusing for members here? Do you think people/members would actually differentiate one from the other? Would it be more productive or less productive in the end?

...or do you think it would be more productive to just have this Forum with one main Sub-Forum titled "Non Ordinary States of Consciousness", which in itself is also a "label" and leave the other Sub-Forums on Paranormal, Religion, Metaphysical, etc. as they are?

Oh, by the way, that is a open question to anyone that wants to voice their opinion on this. This is not directed at you alone Xanth. I wanted to make sure I said that.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 01:22:25 by Lumaza »

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“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence. To understand the true nature of the universe, one must think it terms of energy, frequency, and vibrati

Labels aka common nouns are attached to things so we can differentiate between let's say a glass of water and a bucket of beer. They both fall under the label of liquid in a container.It's OK for physical items as given above as we can differentiate between the items we understand the label is attached to. However it becomes very difficult to understand labels attached to items that we personally don't understand.. This is where a general label is used. It serves a basic purpose yet it contains no real individuality of its contents.Let's say elsewhere they put a dzfty on the cramble like we put water on a fire. It makes no sense until its linked to something we can relate it to. This becomes learning a new language to some yet in essence its a code exchange of nouns.The point is labels and how they are used can scramble up their meaning if doubts occur on what they are exactly. We find a similar condition when talking to someone with very basic knowledge of the language you speak. As you are knowledgeable, you can try different nouns for the same item. Imagine the mush when both have limited knowledge. That's where we appear to be with the art. I like labels when they are clearly defined. The more you know the better you are at extracting precision from the words. It's when basic knowledge is used for an item and as no alternative is known for the item its exactly that which creates the havoc in communications.The subheadings here have already been talked about. A merging of two would remove some confusion as to where to post correctly.I've downloaded the file and will give it a read too. All I need is 36 hours each day to make progress with it at present lol.Nice find Samwise.

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There's far more where the eye can't see.Close your eyes and open your mind.

...and yet this very Forum here has Sub-Forums which lead to labelling each on of these "modes" of transportation individually.

That's because it's not my forum. It's Adrian's. I just help run the place. hehe

I wouldn't dream of making such changes without his express consent and support.I've never really considered to ask him though. I'm sure he would like the status quo.

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What do you think would happen if we had a individual titled Sub-Forum here for each one of these "modes" titled/labelled Lucid Dreaming, OBEs and Conscious Shifting (aka Phasing)? Would it be more confusing for members here? Do you think people/members would actually differentiate one from the other? Would it be more productive or less productive in the end?

Well, the top three forums (right now) are basically three of the same thing... they do need to get some loving in terms of re-organizing.I can always have a chit chat with Adrian regarding that. I imagine he set things up like they are for a reason, at least at the beginning.

I really do believe that how we have things setup here (mostly talking about the top forum sections) is counterproductive and only serves to confuse people.

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...or do you think it would be more productive to just have this Forum with one main Sub-Forum titled "Non Ordinary States of Consciousness", which in itself is also a "label" and leave the other Sub-Forums on Paranormal, Religion, Metaphysical, etc. as they are?

I do like the idea of merging the top three sub-forums into a "Non Ordinary States of Consciousness" sub-forum. For me, that would be awesome.

That's probably the easier of the options to actually put into practice.

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Oh, by the way, that is a open question to anyone that wants to voice their opinion on this. This is not directed at you alone Xanth. I wanted to make sure I said that.

No worries. It's a completely valid question. Why would the forum be set up in a manner contrary to how the Administrator believes/teaches.

My own personal forum (http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/forums) is setup more how *I* would like to see things here... I wanted to go with a more generic format so I can have an easier time sliding people away from the need to identify and organize their experiences so strictly.

I wouldn't dream of making such changes without his express consent and support.I've never really considered to ask him though. I'm sure he would like the status quo.

Adrian was logged in today when I made my post above, so he did see it too. Who knows, maybe he would consider it.

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“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence. To understand the true nature of the universe, one must think it terms of energy, frequency, and vibrati

Personally, I think we need some of both: The all-inclusive and the categorical: the second leads naturally to the first, eventually; but the first requires the recognition of the second in order to properly understand the natural progression to the first.

Looking at this from a business direction, begs the question From what viewpoint are our customers coming from? Members and visitors?

The vast majority are relating to this subject from what is classically described as the Etheric/RTZ/Locale 1/Physical OBE which is the first category Adrian listed: OBEs. This category presupposes the natural idea that the human spirit/soul resides within the physical body and has the ability to detach and go exploring like a ghost wandering the earth. This appears to be confirmed through personal and anecdotal reporting for the majority of early experiencers. We can argue at some later time about the physics or the true nature of what is occurring, but the simple fact is that this experience is what is most commonly reported, with all the attendant exit symptoms/variations and local and limited environmental excursions and the resulting overlays/anomalies.

If this is the viewpoint that most of our members are initially experiencing, then I think we should give some credence to the discussion of it, at least to the degree that it helps certain members move along to the next level of NP experience. This is reflected in the next two forums describing Astral Projection experiences and Astral Consciousness.

Admittedly, these first three forums were somewhat confusing for me; and I think we could and should have a discussion about re-defining/re-naming them.

Dreams and Lucid Dreams are still quite discernible to me, in their differences, both within the category and in context with OBE/Astral experiences and I can see how LDs evolve into APs. Nonetheless, Dreams and LDs deserve their own forum, if not just for early experiencers who are learning to re-define their dreaming experiences into something of greater value.

In the Astral Projection forums, experiencers soon learn that there are differences, and these may be further circumscribed into the Personal Astral and the Collective or Astral Proper. My own experience points to this although I can't fully define it yet as I am still learning within it. The Theosophists describe it as the Personal/Proper Astral, leading to the Mental; Aardema describes it as the Personal/Collective Fields; Leland as a combination of the two, moving from the Astral plane to the Mental plane...I don't know and haven't come to a conclusion as I am still learning within it...yet I recognize some of the distinctions.

Finally, running through all these varieties of experience is a huge current...and subconscious undercurrent of subjective interpretation that we each have to deal with. With that said, it does not deny the recognition of a distinct commonality of experience on so many levels and within so many recognizable nuances of experiencing, that we should not recognize it with some provisional categories.