What Is The True Church

And being 'fulfilled' there is no longer any obligation to that covenant -that covenant made only with the nation of Israel which was "becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish." Hebrews 8:13.

If you submit to circumcision, then you are obligated to observe ALL the laws of Judaism, including the Sabbath and the dietary laws.

Ga 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

However, Christians that are led by God's Spirit are not under the law.

1: keep the commandments of GOD2: Have faith in Jesus/ the testemony of Jesus

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

If these two things do not define your church, then find a church which is defines as such. Why play games with your salvation?

Francis: I tell you reasoning with Jerry is a waste of breath. He is so confused in trying to obey all the Laws found in the Old Testament that he can't see from the context of the books of Galatians, Hebrews, Romans, Ephesians, or Colossians that he is freed in Christ from the law.

He desperately wants to change the foundational grace provided by God in favor of observing the law, believing that the indwelling Holy Spirit will enable him to obey the law & merit eternal life.

In adhering to the 10 commandments he is determined to force Christians back under the law, under that 'ministry of death & condemnation' mentioned in 2 Cor. 3:7,9.

He is a angry and ill-informed man who cannot grasp the truth of Scripture.

Francis: 'The very first animal sacrifice was made by: JESUS'When, please? ---alan8566_of_uk on 1/13/11 Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Jesus killed an animal and made coats of skin for adam and eveRevelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The very first animal which was killed was a lamb, we know it was doen by jesus from Genesis 3:21, now in revelation we are told that the slain lamb from the foundation represented Jesus

---leej Circumcision is a blood covenant given to those of faith. It is given as a covenant sign that God will bless all nations by a son through Abraham.that son being Jesus, the covenant promise is FULFILLED.So we do not say that the law of circumcision has changed, we say that the covenant promise has been fulfilled.yet there is not one word in the bible that prevents anyone from being circumcised:In fact medical science now affirms that eight days after birth is the best time to be circumcised.

Now let me confuse you:Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Francis: I told you that reasoning with Lee is a waste of your breath. He is so confused by Paul's use of the word "law" that he can't see that the context of the book of Hebrews refers to a change in the levitical sacrificial LAW with a change in the priesthood. He desperately wants to change the foundational LAW of God's government - the Ten Commandments - to accomodate his Jew-hating bias. He is a sad and angry man.

//Can anyone make a BIBLICAL agruement against that?and please do not say christ gave two, because the text says OF GOD. ---- As to the fulfillment of the LAW, God really gave us ONLY ONE.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, not kill, not steal, not bear false witness, not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And Adventists have yet to determine what observance to the Jewish Sabbath, the dietary laws, and other laws strictly Jewish, have to do with LOVE OF NEIGHBOR.

Then why the Bible tell us that with a change in the priesthood there had to be a change in the law?---leej on 1/12/11

This is a little above you knowledge base but:

1: The very first animal sacrifice was made by: JESUS2: Jesus has always been our priest: Before the NT was written David declared of Jesus:Psalms 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

So I will give you until 2012 to figure out the " change in the pristhood." since jesus performed the first sacrifice, and is a priest forever having no begining and no end.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 1John 3:22-23 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Then why the Bible tell us that with a change in the priesthood there had to be a change in the law?

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Is what you believe in that God's law (and in specific those laws given only to the Jewish people), never changed and still applicable to the church?

To believe that you would certainly have to hold that believers still must be circumcised physically despite the fact that the Jerusalem council Acts 15 decreed otherwise, as they did not require Gentiles to follow the law of Moses.

So you are in a deep hole on this one as you do not distinguish between covenants.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:18 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Daniel 7:23-25: The fourth beast... shall think to change times and laws:

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

francis //Acts 2:46 And they, continuing DAILY with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

YOU ARE DEAD WRONG ON THAT

Dead wrong on what?- that scripture attests to the FACT they broke bread in houses, something they could NOT do in the Jewish synagogues.

Francis, any good book on church history written by creditable author can attest to the fact there was very deep and widespread conflict between Jews and Gentiles and even between Jewish and Gentile Christians.

That is too easy to see from the conflicts Paul had with the Jews of the synagogues (Acts 13:47, 14:2, 18:6)

Since we have been made right in God's sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God's judgment. For since we were restored to friendship with God by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be delivered from eternal punishment in this life. Romans 5:9-10 NLT

No, no, no, says Jerry & Francis, the blood of Christ alone cannot save you, you also have to observe the Jewish Sabbath. That is very plain from the gospel written by that great voice of God, Ellen White!

For trinity pentecost, Is an offspring from the trin rcc, 1 of her offspring daughters churches, like all the rest of her daughters churches. Even those that worship the gods of islam, buddha etc came from here, 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15.

Luther reformation came in 1517 AD, 493 years ago.What is called reformation by many is called protestant by others. Neither luther nor calvin reformed / reveiwed all church doctrines as needed to be, there are still large elements of the RCC remainng in lutheran doctrine.Other denominations as they broke away from one reformed church or the RCC did not reform all doctrines, they broke off in protest of one or two doctrines. For example the baptist and pentecostal are not truely from the time of Acts, they are formed in protest of baptism and fervor respectively. The SDA church was NOT formed under protest, it was formed based on the study fo the bible, after it was discovered that there was a sanctuary in heaven.

LEEJ I believe what is in the BIBLE. That the house of God is a house of prayer to ALL PEOPLE

2 Chronicles 6:32 Moreover concerning the stranger, which is not of thy people Israel.. 2 Chronicles 6:33 that all people.. may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name. Isaiah 56:7 their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar, for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious PROSELYTES followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

The greatest number of early converts were either Jewish or GOD fearers. That is Gentiles who attended Synagogues on Sabbath but had not been circumcised. They kept Sabbath did not eat unclean food as far as we can tell from the few records left. Paul never spoke against keeping Sabbath. He does say not to judge people on how to keep Sabbath. But no command said not to keep it and no command said to go to church on Sunday.

francis - you seem to want to believe that the jewish synagogues all became Christian. They did NOT.The result of the Apostles preaching in the synagogues was continual conflict. Read Acts!

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

We can easily see this division among believers with the rebuke Paul gave to Peter when "he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision". gal. 2:14

The Jerusalem church under James was largely Jewish and continued to follow in the Mosaic tradition.

As to the verse considered, no one disputes that the early church grew up around the Jewish synagogues but as the hatred between Jews and Gentile converts became intensified, Gentile Christians were no longer welcome in the synagogues.---leej on 1/10/11 LOL If i get you right, the jewish christians worshsiped on sabbath, while the gentile copnverts met on sundays?Now why would these gentile converts hang around a synagogue on sabbath? Did they not have their own assembly on sundays?

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

So that being the case, why not meet with these EAGER gentiles NEXT DAY and set an example? Why bring them back NEXT sabbath?

The Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF) is lauded by its adherents as the greatest, clearest, and most orthodox confession of biblical Christianity ever produced. It is purported to be a simple exhibition of the truth, in which much of its content is set forth in opposition to the heresies and errors that have been propounded in various ages.

It is easy to see why you and those like you would not care much for the WCF as it is probably the most orthodox and well thought-out expression of Biblical doctrine you will ever find.

You can download the version of the WCF that comes complete with Biblical verses.

//Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

While Paul did not write Acts, his companion Luke who apparently had much the same mind as Paul, did.

As to the verse considered, no one disputes that the early church grew up around the Jewish synagogues but as the hatred between Jews and Gentile converts became intensified, Gentile Christians were no longer welcome in the synagogues.

Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Can anyone explain why paul would write to gentile converts that Moses of old is preached every sabbath day. if the christians are meeting every first day? Would it not make sense to refer them to a sunday keeping church?

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Can you explain why these EAGER gentiles must wait until NEXT SABBATH? IN all of the city, is there npot a group of christians meeting NEXT DAY ( SUNDAY).

With the exception of revelation of Jesus, most of the NT ws writen to solve problem, and correct the behaviour of the saints. The appostle paul is responsble for most of the letters in the NT. Any time there wasa problem he wrote a letter to fix it. This would include both issues of faith and practice. In ares where their were no issues, areas such as the sabbath and diet he had no need to wrute and epistle. His ONLY source of reference was what we call the OT.John however wrote an eistle concering keeping the commandments.1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

//leej are you KIDDING?Are you asking Where in the BIBLE are christians commanded to keep the sabbath? Try the TEN COMMANDMENTS for starters

If you do the 10 commandments for starters, then what justification do you have for ignoring the other 590+ laws found in the Old Covenant?

Is the church under the Old Covenant?

2 cor. 3:7,9 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory ...which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.

Shame Hagarites !you point others only to the laws but never to Jesus who is our Savior.

//This text in cntext or precept is NOT about the sabbath. But about the feast days.

That simply is twisting the daylights out of the verse to fit your doctrinal stand.

Such statements as 'one person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables' and 'one person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike' have nothing to do with feast days and are very plain in their meaning.

The Roman Church was largely Gentile, not Jewish. In fact, the conflict in the Roman Church between the Jews & Gentiles, caused the Roman emperor Claudius to kick the Jews out of Rome. Acts 18:2

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his (PAUL'S) epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction

PRIME EXAMPLE:

Take for instance, Romans 14 which clearly states that Christians are free to observe any day as holy and free to eat whatever they wish.---leej on 1/7/11

This text in cntext or precept is NOT about the sabbath. But about the feast days. There is no law prohibiting any christian from observing passover, or pentecost.

But there is a law commanding BELIEVERS to keep the sabbath, and Paul could never teach contrary to God law.

The "TRUE" Church is US!! We are the "Living Stones" and the Temple where the Holy Spirit resides! The Truth (Jesus) is within each of us and together we make up the Church/Bride that Jesus is coming back for!

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all (PAUL)his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Some people read pauls writings and see what they wantbecause as peter says some things Paul wrote are hard to understand by by those who are unlearned and unstable.

Can you imaging what would have happened if Paul being a Jew wrote contrary to what Moses wrote? that surely would have cause an uproar among hebrew christians.

Not only do they missinterprete paul, but many other zcriptures to their own destruction. says PETER not francis

If so, Paul and Peter were involved in a church organization. Paul argued (conferred) with Peter about certain doctrines in order to insure that the apostalic church organization could continue without a major division. It is illogical to believe that Christ is the author of confusion, so the divisions between modern christian churches and also between individual opinions shows that we all struggle with certain aspects of what is true. The pursuit of truth is still worth it, but we need to insure that we do not act unchristian in doing so.

God could clarify things if he so desired. Perhaps he desires for us to use faith and love, more than pharisaical type dogmatism to guide our lives.

And that is one good reason most Christians are not Adventists because much of the Bible in Adventism is not taught especially Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, Colossians, and Hebrews - all epistles that bring the question of observing laws strictly Jewish into doubt. ---leej

Well I can tell you do not go to SDA churches. We have had weekly studies on all those books. I have preached sermons from all those books. In fact when I was baptised my Pastor suggested I buy Luthers commentary on Romans which I have read and still own. Hebrews and Romans are foundational to many of our doctrines. So we actually spend more time studying them then the Old Testament.

I gave no distinction or interpretation. Why can't the word of God speak and convict the soul?Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 Cor 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

"Gods building" God has a church building in this dispensation. It's made up of us who have been saved by His grace. Are you the house of God? Or, is a man-made building the house of God?

And Paul goes on to say" as a wise masterbuilder, I(Paul) have laid the foundation Christ), and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

francis //Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

And that is one good reason most Christians are not Adventists because much of the Bible in Adventism is not taught especially Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, Colossians, and Hebrews - all epistles that bring the question of observing laws strictly Jewish into doubt.

francis //neither Revelation 12:17 or Revelation 14:12 speak of the 10 commandments but only the two John mentions - to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and to love one another. 1 John 3:22-24

Whenever Adventists see the word 'commandments' they immediately believe the word refers to the 10 commandments.

Adventists, like Francis,are taught to ignore context especially the fact that love of neighbor fulfills the law as clearly stated in Romans 13:9f.

And that is the problem when a religion like Adventism teaches its followers to hate other Christian especially those who truly love Jesus and follow Him.

In fighting with other Christians, they hurt the effort to spread the gospel.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Michael e, I agree with what you said about the Spiritual Church of Christ. I was not sure about the last verse you gave in 1 Cor. 3:9. Were you referring to God's building as in the (visible Church building)? Because that passage was speaking about the visible church building. Paul in v. 9 refers to fields of agriculture when he says, Paul, Apollos, Peter, and all ministers are equal workers in the field, but the spiritual life from that field is entirely by God's grace. Paul then changes the image from agricultural to a Master builder (Christ) and laying a foundation, as a builder or designer, designing a building foundation and used those and others to establish the groundwork for churches in Asia Minor, Macedonia, and Greece.

The true Church Is Christs Body Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. The true church IS his body.

The true Church Is The House Of God 1Tim 3:14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The true Church Is Gods Building 1Cor 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

The true Church is the Spiritual Church, comprised of all genuine believers who are spiritually born again by the Spirit and baptized into one body, in which Christ is the Head of that body. The visible church is not completely a true Church since it is mixed with tares and wheat.

the true church are the people. narrow is the road. God doesn't choose over theology & church doctrine of "who is who" but he chooses those for his church who are the faithful followers, & they come out of babylon (man made churches going against Gods scripture & sticking with traditional man made teachings) & go to him.Only he can tell who is the true church.

The true church worships and prays only to Jesus Christ as the only Lord and their only Salvation, and also manifests the power of the Holy Spirit, and obeys Jesus' Commands, for he alone is the only real and everlasting Mediator.

Hi micha8489 The true church of God is made up of those people who have repented of their sins, been baptized, had hands layed on them for the receiving of the Holy Spirit and are now walking in newness of life.

Honestly I believe its those who actually live like Jesus Christ and dont look for reasons to excluse other brothers and sisters in Christ because of differences of opinion about the meaning of certain scriptures.

Being able to look past those differences of opinion and love someone of another denomination shows me that a person truly holds the love of Jesus Christ in them.

The Church purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28)began when Christ was raised from the dead and ascended, sending the Holy Spirit to birth a new entity, the church. The Greek word is ekklesia (which is used 114 times in the New Testament) which means a called out assembly (Ek = out of, Kaleo= to call). It is never used of a building or of the kingdom of God. The Church is not the kingdom, but included in it. The Church is a invisible living spiritual organism, composed of all the believers world wide, from the time of its inception on Pentecost, until the taking away of the Church at the rapture. Its origin is found in God as the Holy Spirit gave it its birth in Acts 2:1-4 with the disciples and the Jews at Pentecost in v.33.