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HaHa!! Show me an NFC or NAFC that won't freaking sit while some yahoo blows a duck call. I've hunted the legs off my dogs and demand they be steady. Never affected their trialing any that I could tell.

Mr. Marvin, I'm curious about two of these dogs. Both Code Blue, and Lean Mac are in my new pups pedigree. If you don't mind, could you expand on what you did or did not like about them? I've heard some people talk about these two dogs. What about them was or was not appealing?

Thanks,

Tony

Code Blue was a nice looking dog of about 70#, his sire Code Red was an idiot that had several titled siblings. He was a dog that could do everything well was tractable on the line & managed to pickup about 125 Amat AA points while being handled by someone who did not make being a good handler his top priority. We all ran the circuit at about the same time & competed head to head for several years. In training, CB would blink a bumper if there was bird scent in the area, about his only fault once he was through AA training. His owner was very selective in who he bred to, hence not a lot of CB pups.

Lean Mac was trained early by Dennis Robbins. Jock ran this circuit when he was in the states but really cleaned up in Canada. I thought him to be a somewhat coarse looking dog lacking a real smooth gait. His Water blinds, crabbing down to the water were not something most people found appealing & that tendency was exhibited in his pups, most of whom were very expensive. As he got older & I ran into him on the MT circuit I thought him to be weak on big water (it's called blowing bubbles)& on occasion he exhibited that on smaller water. His 1st breeding was to FC-AFC Carroll's Black Velvet, a very good dog in her own right, & those pups were well placed in the retriever world. CBV then disappeared from the scene. Some awful good trainers in this sport would disagree with me about LM & in many cases have enjoyed great success. But I'm reminded of the training session where a somewhat novice in the sport had purchased one of those $2,500 pups brought it through the derby with some success & had sent it to a very good trainer for advanced work. We're watching the dog crab down to the water with the feeling the dog may have some cat genes & the owner is emoting up by the trucks, asking what can be done & told that they own a well pedigreed hunting dog, if he'll even do that. For the trainer who owns a lot of dogs & washes out a lot that's not a big deal, but for the person in this sport who does it one at a time, it's 3 years out of their competitive career. I'd personally rather go to a HT & try to find something for $750 that looked trainable to the FT level than take a chance that I would end up with a dog with that lack of pleasure to the eye. BTW, that owner no longer plays for whatever reason.

three years ago i decided i was "gonna make me a field trial dog". since then i have:
1. been as respectful as possible to everyone i meet in this sport.
2. joined clubs and training groups.
3. worked trials by shooting flyers, throwing birds, lugging equipment and setting up tests, hiding gunners, brushing stands, blah, blah, blah.
4. marshalling stakes for and entertaining judges from all over the country.
5. making friends with the most sucessful trial folk who had time for me.
6. had my young dogs with pros who were classified with various letters of the alphabet. A thru...........
7. been interviewed by and bought some nice pups (i didn't deserve) from folks i convinced my home was "a good placement"!
8. trained a bunch. purchased a program.....or two....
9. used my dale carnegie and zig ziglar skills extensively at events.(it has only failed me on one ft weekend thus far)

i have charm and a dynamic personality. i have been working hard. i am obviously sucking up. but i have drawn a line and have never put my vast wealth on display to influence others. i think if it were political, i shoulda won something by now?

Thank you for the response! I'm not sure if I'm going to explain this with the correct terminology but I'll try anyway....

CB is the great great grand sire of a pup I pick up next week and LM is a great grand sire so thats why I asked.

Out of curiosity, do you know anything or have you ever heard of FC AFC Fish Rivers Out of the Park "Homer"? He's the sire of my pup and I've only read about him what I could find. Id be interested to hear if you've ever seen him run. Im excited as he's my first retriever.

HaHa!! Show me an NFC or NAFC that won't freaking sit while some yahoo blows a duck call. I've hunted the legs off my dogs and demand they be steady. Never affected their trialing any that I could tell.

Ha!Ha! why we all know trial dogs can't sit still and aren't hunted. That's probably why many of the pros after the National go hunting using their dogs that were qualified for the National to hunt with so they can get some hunting training in. I am out of here before I get in trouble with the janitor, got to work our trial dogs who last count retrieved over 300 Geese, 60 or 70 ducks and hundreds of doves this past season.
None of them broke, goose calls or duck calls all hunted from a blind using swimming decoys and robo dove decoys. Must be osmosis.

Look at the high point dogs, consider their competition at the time, how many trials did they typically run, how long was their career, male or female, in the case of females did they have litters, how many litters which takes them out of competition for a considerable amount of time.

A case can be made for Kannonball Kate and Wanapum Dart's Dandy who were both great bitches from the West coast. Honcho's career ended shortly after his 6th birthday when he was in his prime and had already been a National Finalist multiple times. Trumarc's Zip Code had a phenomenal record of wins, Double Headers, and National Finalist appearances. Auggie's record was also phenomenal and he was out of action with cruciate ruptures. Cork of Oakwood Lane, King Buck, and many others are certainly in the conversation. There is no way to determine or even logically speculate anymore than comparing Babe Ruth to Hank Aaron.

Therefore your Honor I submit that the unquestioned all-time high point retriever River Oaks Corky deserves the title.

Code Blue was a nice looking dog of about 70#, his sire Code Red was an idiot that had several titled siblings. He was a dog that could do everything well was tractable on the line & managed to pickup about 125 Amat AA points while being handled by someone who did not make being a good handler his top priority. We all ran the circuit at about the same time & competed head to head for several years. In training, CB would blink a bumper if there was bird scent in the area, about his only fault once he was through AA training. His owner was very selective in who he bred to, hence not a lot of CB pups.

Lean Mac was trained early by Dennis Robbins. Jock ran this circuit when he was in the states but really cleaned up in Canada. I thought him to be a somewhat coarse looking dog lacking a real smooth gait. His Water blinds, crabbing down to the water were not something most people found appealing & that tendency was exhibited in his pups, most of whom were very expensive. As he got older & I ran into him on the MT circuit I thought him to be weak on big water (it's called blowing bubbles)& on occasion he exhibited that on smaller water. His 1st breeding was to FC-AFC Carroll's Black Velvet, a very good dog in her own right, & those pups were well placed in the retriever world. CBV then disappeared from the scene. Some awful good trainers in this sport would disagree with me about LM & in many cases have enjoyed great success. But I'm reminded of the training session where a somewhat novice in the sport had purchased one of those $2,500 pups brought it through the derby with some success & had sent it to a very good trainer for advanced work. We're watching the dog crab down to the water with the feeling the dog may have some cat genes & the owner is emoting up by the trucks, asking what can be done & told that they own a well pedigreed hunting dog, if he'll even do that. For the trainer who owns a lot of dogs & washes out a lot that's not a big deal, but for the person in this sport who does it one at a time, it's 3 years out of their competitive career. I'd personally rather go to a HT & try to find something for $750 that looked trainable to the FT level than take a chance that I would end up with a dog with that lack of pleasure to the eye. BTW, that owner no longer plays for whatever reason.

Marvin, we know you like Code Blue & he was a great dog. But we also know that you have been critical of LM in one way or another as long as I have been reading your posts that mentioned LM. Problem is likely that you saw him early before Lardy, Attar & Dave Smith had their collective hands training him. From my experience & witness, LM was an outstanding dog & few were his peers when it came to desire. Few too have been LM's peers when it comes to breeding. Sure he was bred a lot but his progeny led the list of dogs qualified for nat'ls for years after he was no longer competing or alive. LM has earned his place as once of the greatest ever. Code Blue, not so much, but still a great dog that has produced some great dogs too. Point is we don't have to disparage one dog to exalt another. We all have our favorites for one reason or another but the objective facts are that LM has few peers in our retriever games, like him or not. I have mine too & several Grangemead dogs & Super Chief probably are at the top of the list. They all had great accomplishments but the factors that puts them at the top of my list are admittedly subjective bias because I had the opportunity to hear about the Grangemead dogs from a handler I greatly admired & I got to see Super Chief on several occasions, even getting to talk to his owner-handler when I was young & very impressionable. But that is part of why we have such a hard time picking the greatest, because there is so much subjective reasoning a part of the picking & choosing.

I'll call BULLSHIT on this{as well as the rest of what you posted}
If you grew up in FT's you couldn't have posted that BS

Like JTS I also agree with your statement that you can't fix stupid

Father was a founding member of Central Retriever Club here in NY, also one of the longest member at Finger Lakes, I'll be 48 here pretty quick. I was all the things you could do at licensed Trials, fun days, plus all the training through out the week, been around retrievers of almost all types from the time I could throw a bumper. Trained with and was a helper for Kim and Bill Mosses for 4 years. So say what ya want. 99% of the time the Trials were great and great people, but there is always politics. Funny how when ya say something some people don't agree with or have different opinions on, the name calling and insults start??? Your probably one of the 1% that can make any retriever event seem un-friendly.

"Owned by Three AWS's"

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

There are things you just can't fix. Can't fix stupid, can't fix a neutered dog & you can't fix junk!

Marvin, we know you like Code Blue & he was a great dog. But we also know that you have been critical of LM in one way or another as long as I have been reading your posts that mentioned LM. Problem is likely that you saw him early before Lardy, Attar & Dave Smith had their collective hands training him. From my experience & witness, LM was an outstanding dog & few were his peers when it came to desire. Few too have been LM's peers when it comes to breeding. Sure he was bred a lot but his progeny led the list of dogs qualified for nat'ls for years after he was no longer competing or alive. LM has earned his place as once of the greatest ever. Code Blue, not so much, but still a great dog that has produced some great dogs too. Point is we don't have to disparage one dog to exalt another. We all have our favorites for one reason or another but the objective facts are that LM has few peers in our retriever games, like him or not. I have mine too & several Grangemead dogs & Super Chief probably are at the top of the list. They all had great accomplishments but the factors that puts them at the top of my list are admittedly subjective bias because I had the opportunity to hear about the Grangemead dogs from a handler I greatly admired & I got to see Super Chief on several occasions, even getting to talk to his owner-handler when I was young & very impressionable. But that is part of why we have such a hard time picking the greatest, because there is so much subjective reasoning a part of the picking & choosing.

David - I ran my dog against LM his entire competitive career - they had within a week, the same birth dates - my observations span his entire career - my favorite dog was Watergator Sam but I could never get a dog sired by him to the level needed to play seriously.