Tinkle, I can see how it's possible to draw that conclusion from what emynd wrote. However, when one considers that basically no individual "whites" can be held responsible for the system created centuries ago by people who happened to share their skin colour, I think it becomes unreasonable to say that today's whites should be held accountible for racism. At least, not on those grounds.

I know you weren't adopting that stance, but rather pointing out that emynd's statements could be interpreted as suggesting that. I just felt like arguing that it's not reasonable to infer that from what he wrote.

Of course, I'm a little biased here. Being white, I don't like to think that I somehow am to be blamed for a self-perpetuating racist society.

I think the main question is about who, if anyone, should be responsible for fixing that systematic error.

edit: DJDee - word.

Last edited by Petrouchka Rasputin on Wed May 07, 2003 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total

Wed May 07, 2003 11:06 am

sequence

Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 2182
Location: www.anteuppdx.com

I agree with Emynd. Simply put the difference is the relationship to the power-base in a given society, and while I in no way condone minority-racism against minorities, it is a different entity insofar as racism from whites to blacks further marginalizes those already in a marginalized position and the reverse really does not have much effect upon societal relations. It is also the difference between disliking someone because you feel they are threatening your relationship to the modes of societal/capital/cultural production versus being resentful against a group of people who maintain that control thus not permitting you and people lumped into the same category to come to any sort of self-recognition in the society in question.

We live in a historical world, meaing that you cannot understand the relationships between people/races/cultures today if you do not appreciate the historical situations out of which these conditions have emerged, ignoring this leads people to be unaware of the built-in inconsistencies of a political/economic system. Ignoring such factors make it possible for people to say there is no difference between resentment from white to black or from black to white.

Wed May 07, 2003 11:09 am

sextilliondollarmanGuest

irony is a bitch....right?

hey emynd what the fuck is this then?

emynd wrote: 50 is ok to me, it just bothers me that he's being accepted as the "next big thing"... people think he's the next classic rapper i.e. nas, jay-z, biggie, etc.

i mean, sure he's gangsta (been shot hella times or whatever) and a bit witty and somewhat funny. i'd even say he sometimes has an interesting flow and does some interesting stuff within his flow, but, he doesn't have any intelligent or insightful things to say about his gangsta-ness. he's really just glorifying his gangsta lifestyle without providing any commentary on it, without expressing any remorse for it. not that he necessarily needs to express "remorse" per ce, but dude isn't saying nothing! to me, he's just basically running around saying "yeah, ive been shot hella times and im not afraid to kill you." i suppose the scariest thing is, ive never believed a rapper as much as him.

which isn't to say that he doesnt feel any remorse or doesnt have anything interesting to say about his life, but his music definitely doesn't.

not to mention he-- like so many other black entertainers-- is really just fitting into the manufactured white girl fantasy: hella muscular, thugged out, sexually potent african-american rapper. it just seems more pronounced with him because all the white girls i know fuckin' love him and his bucked tooth havin' ass.

also, i hate when rappers come along and make the average joe think they know something about rap, making them say shit like "50 is the best rapper out." ive heard that way too much these past few months from random white girls who clearly know nothing about rap.

so, he's alright to me... and i dont doubt his authenticity, but he aint the next classic emcee to me... it seems he is to the people that matter in the rap game: white girls and black thugs.

Wed May 07, 2003 11:13 am

emynd

Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 2786

Re: irony is a bitch....right?

djblackCLAP wrote: hey emynd what the fuck is this then?

emynd wrote: 50 is ok to me, it just bothers me that he's being accepted as the "next big thing"... people think he's the next classic rapper i.e. nas, jay-z, biggie, etc.

i mean, sure he's gangsta (been shot hella times or whatever) and a bit witty and somewhat funny. i'd even say he sometimes has an interesting flow and does some interesting stuff within his flow, but, he doesn't have any intelligent or insightful things to say about his gangsta-ness. he's really just glorifying his gangsta lifestyle without providing any commentary on it, without expressing any remorse for it. not that he necessarily needs to express "remorse" per ce, but dude isn't saying nothing! to me, he's just basically running around saying "yeah, ive been shot hella times and im not afraid to kill you." i suppose the scariest thing is, ive never believed a rapper as much as him.

which isn't to say that he doesnt feel any remorse or doesnt have anything interesting to say about his life, but his music definitely doesn't.

not to mention he-- like so many other black entertainers-- is really just fitting into the manufactured white girl fantasy: hella muscular, thugged out, sexually potent african-american rapper. it just seems more pronounced with him because all the white girls i know fuckin' love him and his bucked tooth havin' ass.

also, i hate when rappers come along and make the average joe think they know something about rap, making them say shit like "50 is the best rapper out." ive heard that way too much these past few months from random white girls who clearly know nothing about rap.

so, he's alright to me... and i dont doubt his authenticity, but he aint the next classic emcee to me... it seems he is to the people that matter in the rap game: white girls and black thugs.

What do you mean "what the fuck is this then"?

This is my opinion of 50 cent.

Clarify what you're getting at so I can tell you exactly "what the fuck this is."

Wed May 07, 2003 11:38 am

emynd

Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 2786

Re: Racism vs Race-Hatred: An important distinction

[quote="tinkleDRINKER"]
to give just a little background as to where i am coming from. i do not believe in the characterization of people by race. i think that it has provided nothing but anger and alienation. i also do not feel that are any inherent similarities/differences between me (white) and any other person of my or any other skin tone. i reject the assumption that skin tone has anything to do with the individual self and i feel that any pride/disdain felt for people of like/different skin tones is a social construct.

tinkleDRINKER wrote: I don't "believe in it" either. But, the fact of the matter is, many people do and we've been trained to do it. Not believing in it doesn't really have any effect on the situation.

[quote="tinkleDRINKER"]
i think that your idea is dagerous because it places total racist accountability on what you call "whites". when in fact by your definition of racism any person who hates on another race as a result of the our capitalist society is racist. i know that this is not what you were getting at, but, it is what it is.

I can see why you would say that, but it wasn't my intention to imply that "whites" are at fault. I agree that my little spiel does seem to imply that. Chalk it up to bad writing.

I appreciate your comments though.

Wed May 07, 2003 11:43 am

Nope

Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 1916

emyd correct me if I'm wrong:

but this distinction you're trying to make between racism and "race hatred"

it seems to me that your definition of race hatred is exactly that of the SECOND defintion for racism

Wed May 07, 2003 11:51 am

tinkleDRINKER

Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 788

djdee2005 wrote: Figure a guy named "tinkle drinker" would have intelligent insight?
ha.

Dude, and correct me if I'm wrong Emynd, but he's saying that racism as a term just means the predjudice inherent in the system. Black on white predjudice, in general, is not a part of our system. There are no people denying whites homes in the expensive black neighborhoods. Its not harder for whites to get a taxi. Whites aren't denied bank loans on the basis of their skin color.
Race hatred, E is saying, is the reaction to this. He's just defining the terms, and point out that they are different and have different solutions.

I think a lot of you are missing the point...

guy i know what he was saying, but fact of the matter is he separated race hatered form racism with the term SYSTEMATICALLY, therfore if minority hatred towards the majority is created by the system then it is, by his definition, racism.

Wed May 07, 2003 11:53 am

emynd

Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 2786

RandomSurge wrote: emyd correct me if I'm wrong:

but this distinction you're trying to make between racism and "race hatred"

it seems to me that your definition of race hatred is exactly that of the SECOND defintion for racism

Dictionary.com's second definition, yes.

Not my definition of racism which includes the "systematic" stuff.

Wed May 07, 2003 11:53 am

Mikal kHill

Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 6852
Location: http://mikalkhill.com

I think one thing a lot of you are ingnoring (beyond the fact that any race hating any other race is still rascism) is that a lot of problems are not created by race, but the Class System that exists in this country (ironically, the only person I've ever heard publicly speak on this other than me was Charles Barkley). Lower class students are raised to believe they are stupid, and thus they grow up believing it. The media (and the government) like to keep the shit focused on race, because if the lower class were to wise up and unite, wealthy (and upper-white) america would be fucked, 'cause there are a hell of a lot more of us than them.

Wed May 07, 2003 11:58 am

prolifik

Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 488

If you aren't exactly fond of racism directed against black people from whites, which most of us probably aren't, then by condoning bigotry against whites from blacks is absolutely retroactive, unnless of course your goal is to create a larger rift, increase racial tensions, promote a backlash, and ultimately to prolong racism in this country. Not only is it completely imbecilic, but it is the height of hypocrisy to state your abhorrence for something on one hand, and then on the other hand practice exactly that. Explaining 'why' race issues exist in the States is fine with me, even though most of us probably don't need a lesson in that, but condoning racism is something entirely else, and only makes matters worse for the population as a whole.

Wed May 07, 2003 12:01 pm

Nope

Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 1916

but where I fail to find the distinction is that there wouldn't be the "systematic" version without the "race hatred" to begin with

you call it "unavoidable systematic creation"

but in reality the system is what it is because people "race hate" to begin with

you say "the system" perpetuates it....but the system is not some type of entity...people make up that system...people hate due to race...if they didn't, the "ideology" would be less and less of a factor

Wed May 07, 2003 12:02 pm

emynd

Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 2786

prolifik wrote: If you aren't exactly fond of racism directed against black people from whites, which most of us probably aren't, then by condoning bigotry against whites from blacks is absolutely retroactive, unnless of course your goal is to create a larger rift, increase racial tensions, promote a backlash, and ultimately to prolong racism in this country. Not only is it completely imbecilic, but it is the height of hypocrisy to state your abhorrence for something on one hand, and then on the other hand practice exactly that. Explaining 'why' race issues exist in the States is fine with me, even though most of us probably don't need a lesson in that, but condoning racism is something entirely else, and only makes matters worse for the population as a whole.

Who the eff is condoning this bigotry?

I'm not arguing that "race hatred" is any better then "racism." It's just constructed thourgh different logic.

How does this condone black on white bigotry?

Wed May 07, 2003 12:03 pm

Nope

Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 1916

Quote: - Minorities expressing a prejudice against white people is NOT "racism."
-

I think he might be referring to this

and again you made the systematic distinctions which somebody else already said works both ways

Wed May 07, 2003 12:06 pm

emynd

Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 2786

RandomSurge wrote: but where I fail to find the distinction is that there wouldn't be the "systematic" version without the "race hatred" to begin with

you call it "unavoidable systematic creation"

but in reality the system is what it is because people "race hate" to begin with

you say "the system" perpetuates it....but the system is not some type of entity...people make up that system...people hate due to race...if they didn't, the "ideology" would be less and less of a factor

The chicken or the egg?

"Race Hating" people created the system, true, but it was mostly for the sake of serving the economic system. But this is irrelevant because the problem is that the system is now so all-encompassing that it creates us.

The system IS an entity. It's made physical by the exchange of capital and all of the derivations involved there within.

The system manufactures people that support the system. It's a pretty brilliant cycle.

Wed May 07, 2003 12:10 pm

tinkleDRINKER

Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 788

Mikal kHill wrote: I think one thing a lot of you are ingnoring (beyond the fact that any race hating any other race is still rascism) is that a lot of problems are not created by race, but the Class System that exists in this country.

word! property is king in this country!

Wed May 07, 2003 12:27 pm

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