It doesn't matter if we think a retcon is good or bad, well thought out or lazy, helpful or detrimental ot the lore overall. It. Is. A. Retcon. Our opinions don't matter. I HATE the draenei are eredar retcon a lot, but I don't argue against it because it's NOT my decision to make. There is nothing lore breaking about Doomhammer facing Lothar 1 on 1. The story in The Last Guardian, Tides of Darkness, and Beyond the Dark Portal is MUCH more interesting than the 'story' presented in WC 2 anyway. The quick blurbs of text followed by a battle. There's hardly even anything there to defend. And so much more is tied into the novels that they cannot simply be dismissed as 'just novels so their lore doesn't matter.' Like the novels or hate them, they're cannon. I don't like that Med'an is Garona and Medivh's son. I don't like the draenei retcon. But it's not my decision to make. These changes are canon regardless of my opinion. You like the old Doomhammer better before they made him into an actual character and canonized his duel with Lothar? Too bad, it's not your decision to make, no matter how much you hate it. Put your big boy pants on.

I'd rather see him killed rather than imprisoned, exiled or redeemed. I'd be pretty annoyed if they spared someone like Garrosh after refusing to to do the same to the likes of Kael'thas, Fandral and Illidan.

agreed there. Illidan isn't just a favorite of people, he's almost iconic with the warcraft franchise.

When you kill off cool characters liked by so many, it just leaves a blank slate in your product.

The only way out for him is death. Even for such a despicable person such as himself, it would be the honorable way to be removed from power... Also, I'm pretty sure his seat of power would have to be taken from his "cold, dead hands."

I want to see him killed, just not in the way that has been done to villains of the past. I want to have him publicly executed to die the death of a criminal. I want to see him shamed and maybe realize what he did was wrong.

I shall crush garrosh between my feet as the entire horde scream like cowards in fear as i cut them down by the 100s!! MURHAHA!! NONE SHALL ESCAPE MY WRATH!!! ALL SHALL PERISH UNDER MY FURY!!!!!..i mean umm he needs to die.

God, I hate this "We hate Garrosh fanclub" and how it snowballed into the stories direction. Whether you like the character or not (him and Varian were actually morally conflicted characters at first= interesting), his involvement in the story gave more interesting new lore than ANYTHING else in the game. Any other interesting storylines shown throughout the actual game have just been us tying up loose ends of WC3.

Maybe it's just me but the son of Grom Hellscream, the same orc who dropped his general off a bridge for killing innocents is always going to more unique, intriguing and MULTI-DIMENSIONAL than characters like Vol'Jin or even Thrall these days. They're trying so hard to make EVERYONE hate him that's he just a giant main villain now(a complete 180 from A LOT of the scenes they showed through wrath/cata). I liked seeing a hot headed Orc who wanted Glory through honorable warfare (something Orcs actually believe in) through Wrath/Cata. I actually like seeing cultural differences between the Horde and Alliance. I don't mind seeing him dethroned somehow, but this whole "GARROSH IZ EVAL" writing sucks, and has kind of tainted the story for me.....just my two cents.

P.S. Redeem ****ing Arthas or Illidan over Garrosh....you gotta be kidding me. You guys must have really hated Grom in WC3 if Garrosh is the pinnacle of "past redemption" for you people.

God, I hate this "We hate Garrosh fanclub" and how it snowballed into the stories direction. Whether you like the character or not (him and Varian were actually morally conflicted characters at first= interesting), his involvement in the story gave more interesting new lore than ANYTHING else in the game. Any other interesting storylines shown throughout the actual game have just been us tying up loose ends of WC3.

Maybe it's just me but the son of Grom Hellscream, the same orc who dropped his general off a bridge for killing innocents is always going to more unique, intriguing and MULTI-DIMENSIONAL than characters like Vol'Jin or even Thrall these days. They're trying so hard to make EVERYONE hate him that's he just a giant main villain now(a complete 180 from A LOT of the scenes they showed through wrath/cata). I liked seeing a hot headed Orc who wanted Glory through honorable warfare (something Orcs actually believe in) through Wrath/Cata. I actually like seeing cultural differences between the Horde and Alliance. I don't mind seeing him dethroned somehow, but this whole "GARROSH IZ EVAL" writing sucks, and has kind of tainted the story for me.....just my two cents.

P.S. Redeem ****ing Arthas or Illidan over Garrosh....you gotta be kidding me. You guys must have really hated Grom in WC3 if Garrosh is the pinnacle of "past redemption" for you people.

Garrosh is similar to Orgrimm Doomhammer before he got retconned to meaningless bits. He is a backtabber and can act cruel, brutal and in force, but he has also his pride and honor, so he pushed that general down that bridge. After Garrosh, we will see a tamed horde without teeths. The question really is if we really need 2 different factions then, when the world is at peace?

It doesn't matter if we think a retcon is good or bad, well thought out or lazy, helpful or detrimental ot the lore overall. It. Is. A. Retcon. Our opinions don't matter. I HATE the draenei are eredar retcon a lot, but I don't argue against it because it's NOT my decision to make. There is nothing lore breaking about Doomhammer facing Lothar 1 on 1. The story in The Last Guardian, Tides of Darkness, and Beyond the Dark Portal is MUCH more interesting than the 'story' presented in WC 2 anyway. The quick blurbs of text followed by a battle. There's hardly even anything there to defend. And so much more is tied into the novels that they cannot simply be dismissed as 'just novels so their lore doesn't matter.' Like the novels or hate them, they're cannon. I don't like that Med'an is Garona and Medivh's son. I don't like the draenei retcon. But it's not my decision to make. These changes are canon regardless of my opinion. You like the old Doomhammer better before they made him into an actual character and canonized his duel with Lothar? Too bad, it's not your decision to make, no matter how much you hate it. Put your big boy pants on.

I can critisize bad retcons and stories as much as i want to, nobody is goint to stop me, not blizzard, their bad co writers or you. So talking about its Blizzards Deal, right or whatever is pointless, as it won't stop people complaining about bad retcons. I almost think you are the author of that novel that made Doomhammer look like a retarded Thrall v2, cause how come you defend it so much?

As for Doomhammer he was much darker in the games lore, but not completely evil, he was a far better character then. To write a more complex story about him is good for him, but to retcon him to another Durotan/Thrall like character isn't.
Opinions are Opinions. Films and books get criticized every day by random people, you can't stop that, and i certainly won't. Deal with it.

Garrosh is similar to Orgrimm Doomhammer before he got retconned to meaningless bits. He is a backtabber and can act cruel, brutal and in force, but he has also his pride and honor, so he pushed that general down that bridge. After Garrosh, we will see a tamed horde without teeths. The question really is if we really need 2 different factions then, when the world is at peace?

Do you know who called Doomhammer "Backstabber"? Gul'dan.

That's right, that's the little detail that many always seems to forget, the Warcraft II Tides of Darkness manual Horde story is written by Gul'dan. It's obvious that for the Warlock Doomhammer is a backstabber. We don't have the true details of how Doomhammer became a Warchief, Gul'dan was on a coma at the time and Doomhammer killed all the Shadow Council on Azeroth.

THIS is all just from Warcraft II manual. The retcon wasn't about Doomhammer, it was about the nature of the orcs.

Doomhammer brought more races to the Horde and made deals with humans. Garrosh burned all the bridges built by Thrall. Both have nothing alike.

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 10:06 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Tyrannica

I almost think you are the author of that novel that made Doomhammer look like a retarded Thrall v2, cause how come you defend it so much?

Do you know who made Doomhammer "Thrall v2"? Chris Metzen, on the cancelled Warcraft Adventures games, BEFORE Thrall was even what he become later.

Btw, personal attacks are against the rules here. I do not accept it, cause there is no proof and evidence other than a novel that backs up that Doomhammer is a honorable warchief and not exactly like Garrosh and Grom!

This is incredibly amusing, you that take the role of the moderator for your own self being when you said to Venziir, on the other thread, to be a troll and that the forum should have take "actions" about him, only because he said something you didn't like. Oh my, the hypocrisy.

Indeed i got infracted and i'm perfectly okay with it, simply because you deserved it. Yours are not opinions, you are assuming that the books are some "optional" content that aims to screw up the canon lore. This is not an opinion. This is a false statement. The books ARE the canon content, you can deny it until the end of the universe but still they remain canon. That you don't like them is another matter, THAT is your opinion. But what is wrote in the books is absolutely the official content, and nothing that you will stubbornly say will change that.

It's just up to you to accept it or not.

Originally Posted by The Madgod

So in other words you don't have a rebuttal for the fallacy I have pointed out and instead you attempt to insult my credibility by saying I have a "misplaced arrogance."

This is the arrogance, because you belive that i just dismissed it because i didn't have "rebuttal" for the "fallacy" you "pointed out", without considering for a moment that yours are assumptions, impressions and personal thoughts, understandable, i don't deny it, but still assumptions, not unquestionable facts. But since your resilience has been pretty admirable, i'll make a final attempt of reasoning, and then take it as you want, if you still don't agree anyone will keep their opinions and farewell (this is for Velshin too, so he will be a little more happy).

I understood at this point that your argument is that Garrosh attacks and wants to destroy the Alliance for some random feeling of "old hatred" for the Alliance since the previous involvement the Horde had with them. Let's say that this is not completely false, but far from be the truth either. Before Garrosh came to Azeroth he knew little of the Alliance, never encountered a human in his life, just heard stories of the defeat of the Horde. Sure, he wanted to fight them for the Horde, but he couldn't because of the red plox. He was ashamed that he couldn't fight with his father against them, and was indeed pissed to see his people defeated and shattered by the Alliance. But this was before Garrosh came to Azeroth.

In Azeroth he saw that the orcs were far from shattered: they had a huge city, a nation in which they could live free and with all that they needed. At least this is what he thought, initially. Then, he encountered Krenna, with which he had a pretty "heat" talk:

Garrosh raged at her words. “You say you have no duty? You say you are not of the warchief’s people? As you stand in this city? Where we can be free to live in our own space without the fear of annihilation? Where we have everything we need?”
“Ha!” she snarled. “Let me ask you this, Hellscream: have you really seen this city? Yes, the marketplace overflows. But where does it come from? Where are the farms in Durotar?”
Garrosh narrowed his eyes. He knew there were a few on the outskirts of Orgrimmar, but they raised mostly swine and certainly brought no harvest of grain or fruit.
“Exactly!” she continued. “There are none. All we have is hauled in from miles away.” She glared at the bag where she stored her net. “Or what we can wrest from the desert. As for safety!” She laughed. “The Alliance encroaches farther into our land daily. If you can call this red rock 'land' anyway! To the north is Ashenvale Forest, full of everything we could ever need, but did we settle there? No! Instead we live in a desert! So tell me, Hellscream, why would the good warchief, who loves his people so, condemn us to this wasteland when just up the river there is far more bounty? He is either corrupt or incompetent, or both, and you seem to fit right in!”
That was the last straw.
“Treason!” Garrosh roared. He took a step toward her menacingly. “You dare insult the warchief? Shut your mouth, traitor, or I will shut it for you!”

Well, we can all agree that Krenna was quite a whiny bitch. Still, this doesn't mean that she talked nonsense. As you see Garrosh was pretty pissed by Krenna's behavior, but then he talks to Gorgonna:

“Our parents fought in the wars,” she said slowly. “They drank the blood of Mannoroth like your father did, and they were parties to its curse. They committed terrible acts in the name of the Horde. They attacked and murdered the innocent.”
Garrosh bristled. His father was no murderer. “They did what they believed necessary! Do you defile the name of your own blood?”
“I honor my parents' memory—make no mistake!” she cried. “But what they believed was wrong. What all the orcs believed was wrong. We must suffer for it. The warchief understands this, as do I. My sister does not.”
“That is ridiculous. You never even fought in the wars! You said you were children in the internment camps! Isn’t that enough punishment? Why should you suffer any more?”
“I bear the mark all the same,” she said, holding up her hands—green, as were her sister’s, as were all the orcs in Orgrimmar, save him. “I reap what all of them have sown. Is there not some payment owed?”
“And who would set the price?” Garrosh demanded. Her attitude angered him. Did she have no pride at all? “Who could possibly have the right to make that call?”
“I will pay what the warchief asks,” she answered.
“Thrall would never be that unreasonable. We don’t owe anybody anything.”
Gorgonna stared at him a moment, then unexpectedly she laughed just as bitterly as her sister had. “Of course not,” she said. “You don’t owe anybody a thing, Mag’har. But we are not you.”

The answer of Garrosh about the blood of Mannoroth is incredibly important, because is the very detail that makes clear his behavior in MoP: despite all the shame he had for the decision his father took, still he thinks that they "did what they belived necessary". A necessary evil, in fact. No matter how Garrosh tries and would sincerely love to be honorable, to be like Thrall or like Saurfang or like his father and so on, Garrosh in his core is machiavellic. Means justify actions. And this was maliciously hinted in the "present time" part of the short story, with all the mess about Blackscar and the ambush in the Broken Front; Thrall read the letter and literally spat his disgust about it, and then:

Garrosh remained uncharacteristically silent, instead looking hard at the wooden chips upon the map. He could almost feel Varok’s eyes boring into his back, and Thrall’s would also soon fall upon him. It was good the Alliance did not hold Mord’rethar; of that Garrosh was certain.

While in the end he concluded that what happened in the Broken Front was something cowardice and dishonorable, inside him he still belived that has been a "necessary evil" (the evil is not the Alliance bloodshed for him, but the cowardice way of do it, ofcourse) for halt the Alliance by conquering the gate before the Horde. But in the end he will call Blackscar and pwn him with his well known attitude for the matter. But the whole reason for this was:

Shall you be disappointed once again, Warchief?

He simply didn't want to "dissapoint" him after the events occured on the Violet Hold with Varian. So he acted steady with Blackscar as Thrall would have loved to see.
What this event wanted to prove is that Garrosh, essentially, doesn't like to use "dishonorable tactics", but still, in the end, thinks that when necessary are endurable. The only reason for which he openly condemned Blackscar with a smashing attitude was only because Thrall and Saurfang put a "little" pressure on him, and he didn't want to dissapoint Thrall again. But in the end, the Garrosh that we have nowdays, was already there.

Looking back on his arrival on Durotar, after the talk with Krenna and Gorgonna, his following thoughts estabilish not only the profound despise for the Alliance, but his dislike and distrust for the other races of the Horde:

Garrosh thought that what Gorgonna had said by the lake was absurd. His own father had been the first to drink the blood of Mannoroth, he knew that—by the ancestors, how he knew it; no one would ever let him forget it—but Grom had in turn slain Mannoroth and ended the curse for them all at the cost of his own life. His debt was paid in blood. What more could anyone want?
It was Krenna’s words that truly nagged him.
They nagged him when the night elves ambushed lumber caravans from Ashenvale.
They nagged him when soldiers from Tiragarde Keep robbed Razor Hill.
They nagged him when the dwarves of Bael Modan and the humans of Northwatch Hold refused to leave the Horde territory that they had usurped.
None of these things was happening for the first time.
Certainly there had been retaliation, and many of the outposts had rightfully acted in their own defense. Garrosh longed to travel and lend them his support. He would gladly fight to secure them. He would gladly teach the Alliance to leave them alone, to let them take what they needed to survive. Unlike Garadar, Orgrimmar had the might and the numbers to defend itself.
Well, it would have. If only orc forces were not tangled up at Tarren Mill, aiding the Forsaken—an aptly named people, in Garrosh’s opinion. What Thrall had ever seen in them, Garrosh could not possibly comprehend.Still more orcs had been sent to Quel’Thalas. Garrosh’s own interactions with the elves in Orgrimmar had left him wondering distinctly why the Horde should bother with them at all. Their respect seemed thin.
And the trolls. Garrosh could barely stand to think of it. Recruit after recruit had been sent to aid them in reclaiming their land to the south, and somehow all attempts had still failed. Apparently this had been going on for years. What kind of people could not even take down a single witch doctor? Was it really going to take a full-scale invasion—yet more diversion of Horde troops—to reclaim a few measly islands?
The more Garrosh thought about it all, the more his rage smoldered. With each passing day, what Krenna had said clawed at his conscience. Garrosh’s impatience grew.

The Alliance and the other Horde races are, who for a reason, who for another, the whole reason for which the orcs cannot properly defend themselves, and most importantly, the reason for which they cannot prosper as he would love to see. He thinks that the orcs don't need other suffering after all that his race passed in the past years.

But the huge, big problem for which he fails to understand both Thrall and Gorgonna, is that he thinks that the orcs don't need to pay nothing anymore for the mistakes of his father, he gave his life for break the curse and gave freedom to them, problem solved now. But Garrosh simply doesn't understand that what Grom did was something worse than just condemn the orcs to slavery, he turned his race in bloodthirsty monsters that killed men, women and children indiscriminately; and for this failed understanding now Garrosh care a lot about the freedom, the pride and the self-sufficiency of his people, but not at all about WHAT his people do for ensure it. He just bolster their pride, say that they have to take all that they need without ask nothing to no one, and stop.
He cited in Stonetalon what Saurfang said in Northrend without basically understanding a single word, he always did the opposite, now he's just raising up the brutality of the engagement higher and higher, everytime an attempt to crush the Alliance and their opposition fails.

The short story have the entire base of Garrosh's character, is all there. Any subsequent event is tied to it: in Northrend he wanted to prove that the Horde could have be able to destroy the Scourge, while the last thing he wanted was an Alliance that crushed the Scourge by it's own, because would have been like having a "debt" for survival with a despised enemy. When he became the Warchief, all his actions were nothing more than decisions took on those very thoughts: his warmongering attitude in Cataclysm, the attempt to conquer Ashenvale in Wolfheart, and the destruction of Theramore in Tides of War, in ToW he even blames Thrall for be a "weak" peace-lover and the source of all the problems of the Horde; then, the conquering of Pandaria when the one of Kalimdor failed, the usage of the Sha in a desperate attempt to control a power sufficient to finally end the war with the victory of the Horde, and with that attempt failed, now he even put his hands on the heart of an Old God. This is absolutely nothing more than escalation, and when escalations reach their peak, things could only turn horribly bad.

Mr. Trassk said Doomhammer was honorable, i prooved he isn't and thus can easily compared to Grom and Garrosh Hellscream to an extend. Not only with the faked duel, that originally was an Ambush outnumbering Lothar on his diplomatic Mission to talk with Doomhammer the surrender conditions, meaning a warcrime, but also the story with Blackhand prooved Doomhammer is known as Backstabber in the lore of wow. And i am prefering him that way, as this makes him more distinct to Durotan and Thralls. Since it was the original lore long before wow vanilla even happened and it was in the game, its totally canon for me, no matter what activision/blizzard says about the topic or some forum heroes here. In additon i pointed out, that killing Garrosh even a defeat of Garrosh will be horrible for the conflict Horde vs Alliance that is the essence of these games. We do need no factions after we have dealt with Garrosh.

Since it was the original lore long before wow vanilla even happened and it was in the game, its totally canon for me, no matter what activision/blizzard says about the topic or some forum heroes here.

Activision/Blizzard didn't even existed by the time of Warcraft Adventures. All that is happening here is that you can't accept Chris Metzen's words over... Chris Metzen's words.

Pretty much this. The official story you will be presented with in game or in other media is what Blizzard sanctions.

Anything else is just fan/head fiction.

As for the in game character vs lore aspect. We are a part of the game but more of a cog in the machine. We're the faceless heroes who go around supporting the main characters. They get all the glory and we get to ready our selves for the next big bad to come along.

Just, that the horde was indeed evil in the 2nd war, and doomhammer ambushed both: Blackhand and Lothar. Its not headfiction, it is what happened in the warcraft games. Headfictions must be something that is based only in the head, isn't it?

Before, i dealt with wow i did not even know what a retcon is, i am extremely disgusted by it. Espcially if they are that bad for the original lore. Lets retcon gul dan too, he was good orc after all and just wanted to help his people with sageras power from that tomb...geez.

Activision/Blizzard didn't even existed by the time of Warcraft Adventures. All that is happening here is that you can't accept Chris Metzen's words over... Chris Metzen's words.

what about his words, he seems to be a puppet of Activision/Blizzard, too now. Merchandising all the way like disney does it, no matter the consequences. I do not moan often, but this retcon is beyond horrible. I might better quit now. I think the topic and this canon/retcon stuff is talked to death now, we have only our opinions.

I wish to see him executed, though as unlikely it WILL happen, but death will please me all the same for Garrosh, just give us a new Warchief, hell even if it's uhh, Loth'whats his name? (can never remember it for some reason... no joke intended by the way)

what about his words, he seems to be a puppet of Activision/Blizzard, too now. Merchandising all the way like disney does it, no matter the consequences. I do not moan often, but this retcon is beyond horrible. I might better quit now. I think the topic and this canon/retcon stuff is talked to death now, we have only our opinions.

What the hell are you talking about? Warcraft Adventures was written as soon as Blizzard finished Warcraft II. In 1996.