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A Dialog on

Jew and
Gentile Together

The
following dialog is between Dr. Peterson, a Ph.D.
scientist, and David Black, who is currently part of a Messianic congregation.

Todd: It's time to have a bit of a dialog. This should
make for conversational reading!

There
are three key questions we will entertain here.
First, what is a Gentile? Second, what is a Jew?
And third, why 'Together?'

The
First Question

So
Dave... you start... what is a Gentile?

Dave: The very simplest answer is anybody who is not
a Jew. This encompasses everyone from the least
to most civilized, from every ethnic group, the
entire world but the Jewish people. We can keep
in mind that the Jewish people also encompass
many ethnic groups, too.

Todd: You are saying Gentiles are everyone but Jewish
people, but what comes to mind is the question...
Were there always Jewish people in the world?

Dave: You ask an interesting question and I would say
no there wasn't. The Bible talks about Abraham
being the first Hebrew... and you know what the
word Hebrew means don't ya?

Todd: Well, you've got me... what!

Dave: The word means 'called over' or 'called from'
and thus Abraham was called over to a new land...
the land God gave him as an inheritance. So,
everybody after that were called Hebrews only
if they were in the line that carried God's blessing.
This included Isaac, Jacob, but not Esau or Ishmael
or any of the other sons Abraham had ... I think
there were 14 children he had, but it was Isaac,
the son of promise who carried the lineage.

Todd: That's interesting because this creates a starting
point and a focus for us as we move forward in
time. One son out of all possible progeny is
the one to follow. And if we are reading the
Bible this is an event that provides a transitional
element of change. There are events described
before Abraham, but Abraham is a new milestone
in the story line. Even after Abraham, the story
has good and bad times for Israel, consequences
and benefits. It almost seems like from Adam
and Eve that the story doesn't exactly click
into place. It takes more developments for the
story to unfold.

So, it initially takes
a generic people, the Gentiles, all the way along until God confronts Abraham
with a choice. And the word Jew really comes along later and actually doesn't
that come from the word Judah? So when we think about Abraham we should think
of the initiation of the House of Israel and in general speaking not necessarily
default to saying he is the first Jew. Israel is in fact God's focus and not
simply a name for a people.

Dave: That's right. The word Jew comes from Judah,
the kingdom within Israel that actually comes
later in history.

Todd: By contrast, we can look at the word Gentile
initially in a secular sense. Just anybody...
but also look at this from a religious sense.
Do you remember from our discussion the other
day what you were saying about the assumption
that some people make?

Dave: The assumption that if you are not a Jew you
are a Christian?

Todd: Well, more like if one is a Gentile then they
are Christian.

Dave: Yes, I was saying previously, this may hold in
the case where one grows up in a family that
has a Christian background ... as opposed to
growing up within an Islamic [or other religious]
household. In this context some automatically
consider themselves Christians and I think likewise
Jewish people might make an assumption about
certain types of Gentiles, based on general characteristics
to automatically assume some Gentiles are Christians.
This makes sense because Judaism is passed down
by a bloodline. That is, one would say 'I'm a
Jew because my parents and grandparents are Jews.'
Likewise, if this is your paradigm, then you
tend to look at the rest of the world this way.
If you see someone growing up in a certain household
they tend to take on a certain association ...
without regard to a claim of atheism, agnosticism...

Todd: So, they pick up on a label. And paradigm means
world view or more specifically a model for how
things work. So, these labels seem to describe
how something works... but this is irrespective
of a reality that exists in the background. Here
someone is adopting a label by default depending
on where they grew up. But there is another issue
that goes further and this speaks to one exploring
and personally believing what goes along with
that label. After all, the purpose of this section
of the web page, 'Jew and Gentile Together,'
is to really look at the purpose of these labels
on a personal level. But in missing this personal
aspect we pick up the label and say my parents
are Islamic, Jewish, or Christian, and therefore
I am Islamic or Jewish or Christian, respectively.
But the important distinction is that there is
a choice involved.

In
thinking of choice, regardless of family background
or in the absence of any specific background,
the real issue is choice and that one might confront
the prospect of looking around to think about
belief and the choices behind belief and beyond
simply adopting a label.

Dave: Along those same lines... the point you are making...
the true religious observance is what really
makes you of that particular religion. Or places
you within that people group... If I practice
Islam and hold true to the tenants and try to
live by life based on these, then I'd truly be
Islamic. If I was just someone who because of
my great grandfather's belief but have no religious
practice in the present, then am I really Islamic,
or Christian, or Jew, what ever the case may
be.

Todd: This is true, especially from an apologetic perspective,
which begs the question of our being able to
state or defend the reasons behind our belief.
What is the defense or basis for our behavior,
actions, and understanding! We need to all be
the detectives to dig into what we think and
believe. Is there anything that we are standing
on, this foundation of belief, that is really
dependable and credible. That's truly important
to know! And if there is truly only one God,
then there is only one truth that can go behind
a belief system. With this some information fails
to support what is true and some beliefs in other
faiths stand to fall by the wayside.

Some
people may be in the right framework for what
they believe. For example Judaism is the source
for all the writings that are used to support
both Judaism and Christianity. The biblical texts
were recorded over time by Jewish scribes. And
yet if these texts are not read or examined closely
enough, then a lot of truth is then skipped over.
This then short cuts the fullness of the experience
and thus compromises the belief.

The Second Question

Dave: This leads to our next question: "What is a Jew?"

Todd: Sure!

Dave: This brings up other questions like: Is Judaism
a race or a religion? Is it a group based on
a blood line or belief? Can it be either or?
Or is it both?

Todd: There are certainly ethnic groups that are identified
by genetic lineage and geographic placement on
the Earth... those characteristics fit with the
Jews or Arabs in the Middle East, but the native
aborigine peoples in Australia, for example,
they may have an oral tradition, but to my knowledge
they don't have written scriptures that have
been passed from generation to generation. This
is one thing about the Jews that set them apart
from other groups. These writings are unusual
and they don't broadcast just internally, yes
they are somewhat introspective, but they also
extroverted by nature as a light shining out
to all the nations.

Dave: I recently heard about a tribe in Africa that
claims to be descendant from the 'ko-hay-neem'
or the priesthood of Israel. In fact they claim
to be specifically of the 'ko-hay-neem ha-ga-dol,'
the high priests and not just the priesthood
at large. Here is an example of an ethnic, yet
Jewish, group geographically displaced from Israel
that sees roots back to a key tribe of Israel.

Todd: Indeed there have been recent publications showing
that geneticists have found gene markers in the
DNA of this group that substantiates the claim
you are describing. And this group is all the
way down the east coast of Africa. And just to
think, here is a dark-skin people group with
ethnic roots to Israel and also Africa. Likewise,
the entire nation of Israel, having been spread
out over the globe, now incorporates a multiethnic
diversity across colors and geographic locations,
not to forget customs and dress, etc. So, inn
a way this mirrors diversity of the nations,
too.

Dave: The Hebrews that spread out now are regathering
back in Israel, to return to the Land given originally
to Abraham!

Todd: It's like the melting pot we think of when describing
the United States... and this is true even in
my family where my grandfather came over from
Europe to settle in the States. So, Israel's
gathering in is a composite of peoples, but here
all having a claim to the original line from
Abraham.

So,
we talked about what is a Gentile, and from a
religious perspective we talked about choice...
but when we think of the Jewish people, what
role does choice play here?

Dave: Interestingly enough, we can see evidence in
the Scriptures of Gentiles making a choice to
align themselves with the nation of Israel. These
are often times referred to as the strangers
in the land living along side the Jews. In fact
their names are mentioned in lineages. For example,
Ruth with the Jewish mother-in-law, Rehab in
Jericho before the Hebrews arrived there... and
she ended up in the lineage leading to David
the King...

Todd: Actually there are a number of such examples
that are included in another section that focuses
on 'Jew and Gentile Harmony in the Hebrew Scriptures,'
and our visitors can explore those writings to
see how that works out!

Dave: Also within the Torah... the Hebrews are told
to accept these foreigners if they align themselves
with you... they are to be counted as among you...

Todd: ...for example, in the text of Leviticus, the
mention of 'strangers among you' clearly stands out time and again.

Again, going back to the example of a Gentile growing up in a family with no particular religious background, one might be in Europe or South America, or where ever, and see that there are specific groups exhibiting a specific practice. In that situation, I might conclude I have a choice. This is especially true if I start to ask why I am alive and to ask about the purpose, if any, for being here. This is really a universal experience for being human, but something we rarely share with those around us.

Dave: I agree!

Todd: I remember Hugh Ross or Reasons to Believe who
noted that at one point he wanted to know, from
a scientific perspective, which of all the world's
religious texts... which of these would survive
simple scientific scrutiny. As a young person,
he was able to eliminate many of the texts right
away because of claims that are illogical or
impractical. After breaking out all these text
sources into various categories, he was left
with the Hebrew Scriptures (Tanach) and the text
of the b'rit chadashah (in Hebrew) otherwise
known as the new covenant. In short, the Bible
is the only text that is scientifically sound
and withstood his questioning. In fact there
is an audio cassette recording of Dr. Ross giving
a more detailed account of his process and questions.
I think interested persons can contact Reasons
to Believe on how to obtain that recording (see
list of Internet sites for a link to Reasons
to Believe).

The
point I'm making is not that the Bible is a science
text, but that if I am asking for valid sources
on which to make a choice, then something has
to stand out as truthful. And if I'm going to
make an informed choice, certainly I want to
make a well founded choice. The scientific perspective
is simply one of many possible avenues of inquiry
to truth.

For
the Jew in New York or maybe outside Tel Aviv
or any where... is there a choice to be made?

Dave: I think so... certainly the Gentile might choose
to practice Judaism or any other '-ism,' there
are choices for the Jew. Throughout the Scriptures
we can see Jews choosing to follow foreign gods
or to return back to the God of Israel. This
is clear in God's chastisement of His people
when they wander astray. This is pictured in
Joshea's marriage to the harlot... this I a picture
of God marrying the Hebrew people and the Hebrew
people, playing the harlot, by continuing to
look for other lovers. So, the Jewish people
can choose, but God will also continue to call
them to continue in relationship with them (Israel)
just as the prophet continued in his relationship
with his wife... even for the days, months and
years when she was not living with him... he
was still married to her and sought after her.

Todd: I remember how you described your wife's starting
to read the Bible, to ask questions, and searching
there only to find missing text. Elsewhere we
find people finding descriptions of things that
sound familiar but unless placed in the proper
context all this doesn't make as much sense.

What
I'm driving at here, and what is addressed in
the information this web page offers concerning
'types and shadows,' is that there is in the
Hebrew text hints of the Jewish Messiah. In some
Hebrew texts some of the passages are removed
because of this familiar sound which indeed is
a representation of something important... even
if the text is simply describing a foreshadow
of what comes later in time. Your wife made a
connection by asking about the missing pieces
of text. Her persistence brought her to answers
that explain what the types and shadows represent.

There
may be different teachings that one encounters
when looking into the text, but once we explore
enough this is like the window view, the pieces
start to come together to provide the larger
picture.

If
Isaiah 53 is missing, then as some have discovered
in their Bibles... then asks why is it gone and
what does it say... only to see a picture of
a suffering Messiah, then the questions flow
from there.

Dave: Not just a typo or printer error, but when it's
the 22nd Psalm, the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, or
other related Scriptures... you know when you
go to the rabbis and they tell you it is unlucky
to study the book of Daniel... well why? Well,
we can see clearly a guideline exactly when that
Messiah is to arrive.

If
the rabbis say it's unlucky... could that be...
according to Daniel the Messiah already came
and the rabbis are essentially saying 'we don't
want to admit that.' Could it be that according
to Isaiah 53 that Messiah would suffer and die...
that his people would not esteem him... think
so little of him... and that he would be a ransom
not just for the Hebrews but also for the entire
world.

Todd: The missing texts are like saying... let's not
look at that, let's not consider how he came,
appeared to his people, and then how he died...
which then would lead to other questions and
potential discoveries.

Here
are some of the real substantive points that
go to making choices, but here it's a matter
or having the information to have a complete
an understanding. And for the Hebrews, its not
a matter of learning about some other group's
Messiah, this is the Jewish Messiah and a matter
of the Jews greeting their own Messiah and bringing
him into their lives. Ironically, it's the Gentile
who must next 'come over' to accept something
that is not 'naturally' theirs. And the biblical
text indicates it is in fact the Jewish people
who should be helping everyone else to understand
the nature and mission of Messiah. Unfortunately
history has garbled roles and messages... its
time to take a hard look to recognize something
so many of us have missed for so long. And by
'us,' I mean Jew and Gentile both... together
we can recognize something very important here...
but it takes a bit of exploration and objectivity
to do so!

The
Third Question

This
speaks to the concept of a holistic paradigm...
we could consider Jew and Gentile people groups
separately as if there is no overlap... but it's
clear that the Hebrews were called and a Chosen
People distinguished such that God's story could
be shared among all people. If the message is
really to 'the Jew first and also to the Greek,'
then this means the House of Israel is to be
the ultimate message bearer... and that is part
of the real choice for a Jewish person... to
recognize their role as God's message bearer...
first to those in Israel and then out to all
nations.

This
ironically describes a form of evangelism for
Judaism that may not be very popular, but it
is in the design of the Scriptures themselves.

Dave: Sure... and if we look at the Scriptures overall,
from Genesis on, God has a plan for mankind,
a plan for all creation in general, and He puts
that plan in effect and something goes awry ...
we decide to rebel against God and rebel against
our relationship with Him... and in that we have
the fall... not just the fall of mankind but
even all of creation is said to groans over this
fallen nature and choice to rebel... then we
have God who allowed things to go on for a while
and then says... this is too corrupt... and He
starts over again with Noah and his family, with
animals that fill the ark, and then with this
restarts His plan, restarts life in general.

But
who was Noah? He was a man considered righteous
according to the Scriptures, but was he a Hebrew?
Not necessarily since Abraham was called the
first Hebrew, but did Noah love and respect God...
apparently he did! Yet all of the nations from
Noah's time on, all the nations came out from
Noah!

But
from Noah's time on we have a mounting corruption
again. We then have God calling out Abraham and
to then establish a covenant with Abraham. That
covenant being not just to spare a people group,
or grab a certain group to make them holy unto
God... that is true... but also to redeem all
of mankind and to set the record straight in
a permanent and lasting way. This would be a
relationship with God based upon choice, based
on love, and unable to be broken by the adversary.
This was to occur through Abraham and a people
who were chosen to accomplish this.

When
you look later when God gave the Law (Torah)
to Moses... He calls the people to eat differently,
to look, act, and worship differently... He gives
them instructions for every aspect of life and
then calls them a peculiar people... He tells
them... you are not to make yourself dirty with
these other things or with these other people...
but then God places this peculiar people and
sets them directly at the crossroads of the world!
And when He did this... this was the hub of all
human activity... and then He calls that hub
their Land! Well, actually it is God's land and
they were keeping it by living on the land.

So
why would God ask them to maintain separateness
and then stick them in the middle of everything!
There separateness was to set them apart as examples
of who He was and the relationship He wanted
with mankind.

He
set them in the center so the entire world would
see what a relationship with God was suppose
to be like.

Todd: It's really ironic in a sense when we look at
the news today to see an Israel that is split
into secular and a religious realms and all the
conflict describes a melting pot of activity...
and yet it is still in the middle of our attention.
You can't turn past the front page of the newspaper
without seeing the reports! So, it seems as if
Israel is now trying to redefine themselves in
that role of separateness and bring themselves
back on-line with God. That still puts them in
the same role because then whether it is the
more secular news or religious aspects it's still
in everyone's face ... we still have to be thinking
about what is going on there.

In
this respect Israel is now an oscillating light
that will become stronger and more consistent
over time. For example, you were talking about
the writings of Daniel... which give an account
of a future time when there will be religious
animal sacrifice. Today in the modern mind one
does not readily think of conducting such sacrifices.
And yet we are aware that there are Jews who
are looking forward to rebuilding the Temple
in Jerusalem.

Dave: ...and I'll bet they are not members of PETA!

Todd: No! But even as you chuckle about this you've
raised an interesting point and I suspect there
will be controversy over reinstating an age old
practice after a pause of some two thousand years!

Even
the recent visit to the Temple mount by an Israeli
official focuses our attention on the religious
yearning to rebuild. Another [the third] Temple
will be a reality. And the implications in light
of what else Daniel tells us is about this is
certainly worthy of our utmost attention. He
essentially describes a final chapter for present
time. The Temple simply is the key that opens
the door to that time and many will see the building
going on but not give it a second thought.

I
think that Jews and Gentiles are all in this
together. The story is unfolding to the point
where I don't question the validity of Daniel,
I just waiting for the cornerstone—which
has already been cut—to be put in place.
Do you know where the cornerstone is?

Dave: Where?

Todd: I'm told there is a traffic circle in Jerusalem...
which someone told me our tour bus drove past
this... anyway the stone cut for the Temple rebuilding
is put in the middle of this traffic circle...
right out in plain view. It's sitting there out
in the open where everyone can see and so no
one will be tempted to take it! It's in a place
were eyes are always on it... and in a way I
think this is significant of thoughts of rebuilding
are always ever present!

So,
it is not a question of if they will rebuild
but when. In fact there are some graphics on
this web site from the Temple Institute, which
is the group that is continually planning for
the rebuilding.

Brief
Summary

So,
to wrap up quickly, in our discussion we've talked
about covenants between God and mankind: a covenant
with Noah, with Abraham, and there are others
which are outlined in another section entitled
Messiah's timeline.

Consistent
with thinking that the destiny of Jews and Gentiles
is indeed Together, Charles has written a number
of pieces to illustrate a harmony with Jews and
Gentiles as recorded in the Hebrew language in
the Hebrew Bible. This is a text that Jewish
people read all the time and yet we want to bring
this illustration out across the board. The Old
Testament isn't simply a text for Jews only.
Likewise, the Greek text of the new covenant—a
covenant promised to the Jewish people by Jeremiah
and later written in Greek by Jewish authors
and scribes—this too contains many elements
of the same harmony and the message is no less
the same focus on a relationship that is a matter
of our choice... we all must chose to have a
relationship with God or there is none.

Dave: And our thanks to our visitors who have 'listened' to our chat... its been
enjoyable to share!

For a general listing of books, visit the WindowView Book Page for: Science and Scripture .

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