I keed. The problem is that science will never be placed on an even playing field with religion because it intrinsically acknowledges fault in its own theories. Science is incapable of providing the proof that others seek. It proposes theories that have yet to be proven wrong by the inevitable anomalies it will soon discover. Science accepts fallible knowledge, while religion through divine inspiration enjoys infallibility.

I would also like to mention that geneticists and neuroscientists have agreed our genetic predispositions can greatly impact our likelihood to believe or reject the idea of a superior being. They have done some pretty interesting work with twins being separated at birth, etc. etc.

A book called On Being Certain offered some pretty thought provoking insights on this very topic if anyone is interested in written material anymore these days.

The other thing I have to mention is the behavior of the majority of religious groups do not do themselves any favors. I've grown to harbor some disdain for these organizations, and since moved to a more spiritual, empathetic journey. One where I'm just trying to be a more compassionate, understanding, and contributing individual which used to be the core message of religion believe it or not.

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." -Gandhi.

Anyways, that's completely off topic, I just felt the urge to add in my one cent because I've done some soul searching in the last few months, and to no avail. My rational, logical side has prevailed thus far, but I will continue to enjoy the journey of self educating and seeking some sort of connection with a belief, regardless of it actually happening or not.

I think the effects of this extract seem to benefit the sedentary ones the most. It would seem that it could be quite helpful to those with diabetes and hyperglycemia because of it's affects on glucose absorption. For the bodybuilder, athlete, or anyone who does moderate to intense exercise I don't see much benefit. I don't like the idea of blocked carbohydrate absorption when I would need it. Nothing is worse then trying to lift or do intense cardio when your blood sugar is low. It might have some use in the evening or on cheat sedentary days but not something I'd use in conjunction with a rigourious exercise routine.

I'd reccommend this more to the obese or diabetic client who cannot do much activity that is doing No more then 30minutes of light walking a day of activity.

PS. Mr. Arnold I did not come in here to talk about God but if you'd like to PM me and tell me what science can offer me that is greater than everlasting life I'am all ears.

“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

probably well over 99 percent of the universe cannot be explained. Not because its supernatural and therefore not explainable by science, but simply because we have not figured it out yet.

Despite centuries of research, rationally cultivated by brilliant minds we cannot fathom 99% of the physical phenomena which surrounds us. But we still believe a universe as complex, intricate, vast and finely balanced as this created and self-organised itself through random events. When any basic system of control takes an intelligence to create how can the universe not have an intelligent designer. And why have many of the greats upon whose shoulders modern science rests believed in a God. Even Professor Richard Dawkins, an militant atheist, recognizes this and explains it away by saying these scientists such as Newton believed in an impersonal God not a personal God, but that's just mere semantics. The point is they believed in a God. No one claims the Universe is supernatural, which by its nature transcends the physical work we perceive around us. How much of what we are told by science do we accept through rational processing? Generally we are told by the science community and we believe. Does the evolutionary theory not flout the principles of science. How much of it stands up to rational scrutiny? Believe in a God or don't believe in a God that is our free choice, but to claim religion is more irrational than science is irrational itself.

How much of what we are told by science do we accept through rational processing? Generally we are told by the science community and we believe. Does the evolutionary theory not flout the principles of science. How much of it stands up to rational scrutiny? Believe in a God or don't believe in a God that is our free choice, but to claim religion is more irrational than science is irrational itself.

evolution stands up to rational scrutiny exponentially better than any other explanation for the living things that surround us.

and i dont knock belief in the possibility of a god, in fact i believe in the possibility of such a thing (although even that in itself is irrational because who created god?)

and i dont knock belief in the possibility of a god, in fact i believe in the possibility of such a thing (although even that in itself is irrational because who created god?)

Science has programmed us to believe everything had a beginning and everything had a creator. Outside of our own mind and outside of science you'd have to believe that the God that created all things had no beginning. He was always there. This isn't rational based on what we know but to dismiss a idea because our little brains can't fathom it IMO is a lack of humility. Maybe we have a place and maybe that place isn't above all other things? It is true vanity to think we know it all or think we will eventually know it all. After all if we knew it all we wouldn't have so many questions. We'd have all the answers. I think many scientists have some sort of superiority complex. Their ability to think that they might be inferior to something else is unacceptable to them. It blinds them from seeing the things that are unseen. A exaggerated self-importance. Maybe your role isn't that big of a deal. Maybe when it comes down to it , we are only dust. For myself belief really comes down to egotism not science. We have plenty of evidence in history noting that when a man focuses on himself and his own purpose he eventually brings himself to ruin. Think bigger than yourself and you unleash your mind to a whole different level of understanding.

“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

How much of what we are told by science do we accept through rational processing? Generally we are told by the science community and we believe.

No

You may believe something simply because someone says science supports it, but this does not mean it is universally accepted, it just means you are naive. Science is constantly being challenged and questioned. Just about nobody accepts something as a fact. We are told things and then we examine the evidence for it and try to see if it makes sense. Most times we see a way it could have been done better and/or will see flaws and will then question it and look for more research that will either support the claim or refute the claim. This is science.

Religion on the other hand is merely a bunch of stories written in a book that we are told to just believe. And when we scrutinize or question anything in this book we are told "you just have to have faith" and are supposed to accept that as an answer.

Originally Posted by saggy321

to claim religion is more irrational than science is irrational itself.

Science has programmed us to believe everything had a beginning and everything had a creator. Outside of our own mind and outside of science you'd have to believe that the God that created all things had no beginning. He was always there. This isn't rational based on what we know but to dismiss a idea because our little brains can't fathom it IMO is a lack of humility. Maybe we have a place and maybe that place isn't above all other things? It is true vanity to think we know it all or think we will eventually know it all. After all if we knew it all we wouldn't have so many questions. We'd have all the answers. I think many scientists have some sort of superiority complex. Their ability to think that they might be inferior to something else is unacceptable to them. It blinds them from seeing the things that are unseen. A exaggerated self-importance. Maybe your role isn't that big of a deal. Maybe when it comes down to it , we are only dust. For myself belief really comes down to egotism not science. We have plenty of evidence in history noting that when a man focuses on himself and his own purpose he eventually brings himself to ruin. Think bigger than yourself and you unleash your mind to a whole different level of understanding.

For myself belief really comes down to egotism not science. We have plenty of evidence in history noting that when a man focuses on himself and his own purpose he eventually brings himself to ruin. Think bigger than yourself and you unleash your mind to a whole different level of understanding.

It's hard for me not to giggle uncontrollably at this. Do we need to list the atrocities that man has committed because of religion? Yeah I know big believers will dodge and say they weren't true Christians or Muslims or whatever. A strong militant belief in a higher power has been responsible for so much destruction it's mind blowing. The "good" books are constantly used to kill people, screw people out of money, etc. And they have been throughout their history, this isn't a recent development. Go through a lot of the big tragedies in history through the last 2000 years and a lot of them have a common theme--religion.

Not to mention hell which if it exists seems like the worst possible place for someone who's all knowing, all powerful, and all good to allow people to go to merely for not bowing down to him. Kinda sounds like terrorism.

I have no problem with those who believe, but spare me the man is screwed without religion stance or society is horrible in its absence. I think I'm a pretty freaking good person and I haven't been to Church in 7 years.

You may believe something simply because someone says science supports it, but this does not mean it is universally accepted, it just means you are naive. Science is constantly being challenged and questioned. Just about nobody accepts something as a fact. We are told things and then we examine the evidence for it and try to see if it makes sense. Most times we see a way it could have been done better and/or will see flaws and will then question it and look for more research that will either support the claim or refute the claim. This is science.

Religion on the other hand is merely a bunch of stories written in a book that we are told to just believe. And when we scrutinize or question anything in this book we are told "you just have to have faith" and are supposed to accept that as an answer.

That just might be the funniest thing I read all week.

That is irrationality itself. Do you understand and can explain quantum physics? Why doesn't newtonian physics apply at quantum level? Do you believe in anti-matter? Have you seen antimatter? How much of scientific theory do you believe based upon actual knowledge and how much to you believe because someone explains it in a rational manner. And how do you test the theories put out by scientists? What sources do you go to? The same source who are positing the theories or explanations in the first place. For some reason atheists seem to believe they have exclusive right to rational thought and love of science. I am a scientist by background and I enjoy science thoroughly. But the only difference between me and an athiest is that I use the rational mind given to me by God to study his creation so that I come know God.

Believing in God doesn't mean believing in a religion. Ever read any of Thomas Paine's works? He believed in a God but not the bible nor any revealed religion, but the sheer order and beauty he saw around him pointed to the existence of a creator. There are many people like that. If religion is so irrational explain why the likes of Einstein and Newton believed in a God? If they were irrational then how would they contributed so much to an area which has rationality as its basis. Isn't believing them to be irrational and then believing in the science they produced irrational?

Ironically I am certain most of your belief system that you take for granted has its basis upon revealed religion. What do you think the entire legal system and the constitution is based upon....religious law....most people's morality, its fundamental elements, is based on revealed religion. I know I can't convince you nor you can convince me. This isn't about that. But considering all those who believe in a creator as irrational is ridiculous.

Believing in God doesn't mean believing in a religion. Ever read any of Thomas Paine's works? He believed in a God but not the bible nor any revealed religion, but the sheer order and beauty he saw around him pointed to the existence of a creator. There are many people like that.

Ironically I am certain most of your belief system that you take for granted has its basis upon revealed religion. What do you think the entire legal system and the constitution is based upon....religious law....most people's morality, its fundamental elements, is based on revealed religion. I know I can't convince you nor you can convince me. This isn't about that. But considering all those who believe in a creator as irrational is ridiculous.

To believe people's morality has anything to do with religious law is simply naive. Morals evolved since humans became sentient beings and evolved a sense of consciousness.

There are in fact many people like Thomas Paine...and it's called the complexity theory. It is a translation of "I cannot explain it, therefore it must be God."

Believing in God doesn't mean believing in a religion. Ever read any of Thomas Paine's works? He believed in a God but not the bible nor any revealed religion, but the sheer order and beauty he saw around him pointed to the existence of a creator.

This makes it sound like it doesn't really matter then...if there's just a God, but not one that is conveying ideas to me through a religion, who cares how I live my life? I'd be better off not thinking about that **** and just living my life with little more than a thought of "oh, something made this"

It's hard for me not to giggle uncontrollably at this. Do we need to list the atrocities that man has committed because of religion? Yeah I know big believers will dodge and say they weren't true Christians or Muslims or whatever. A strong militant belief in a higher power has been responsible for so much destruction it's mind blowing. The "good" books are constantly used to kill people, screw people out of money, etc. And they have been throughout their history, this isn't a recent development. Go through a lot of the big tragedies in history through the last 2000 years and a lot of them have a common theme--religion.

Not to mention hell which if it exists seems like the worst possible place for someone who's all knowing, all powerful, and all good to allow people to go to merely for not bowing down to him. Kinda sounds like terrorism.

I have no problem with those who believe, but spare me the man is screwed without religion stance or society is horrible in its absence. I think I'm a pretty freaking good person and I haven't been to Church in 7 years.

Don't mistake me for a religious supporter. Religion is soaked with hypocrisy and corruption and has been a major source of the problems we have today. You step foot in a prison and the majority of guys in there will have a cross tatooed on their body somewhere. Crying to God and asking him why they are in there when only their actions got them there, not Gods. I could talk all day about the problems religion has caused and I spend most of my time trying to unveil the lies they are teaching in churches.

The idea of mainstream hell was a MAN made doctrine designed to put fear in people to control them. It's not a biblical doctrine. It's political more than anything. Like you said how could a God that is good design a place like this? He wouldn't be one worth serving that's for sure. If he was loving this place would totally contradict his personality. There are many contradictions in the belief. Just one.. the ruler of hell is proposed to be the devil satan.. well that is never mentioned in the bible and God has plans of destroying him so who would rule hell if he was the king of it? Do some research on the origins of the modern hell.. you'll see where it came from. It sure didn't come from God's word.

My beliefs are based on the teachings of God and of the christ, not of some man made religion.

“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

Of course and it wasn't my intention to argue otherwise. The idea that Flaw was going with "can you imagine men without religion" type thinking was just hilarious. As if religion has always been nothing but great for humans.

Don't mistake me for a religious supporter. Religion is soaked with hypocrisy and corruption and has been a major source of the problems we have today. You step foot in a prison and the majority of guys in there will have a cross tatooed on their body somewhere. Crying to God and asking him why they are in there when only their actions got them there, not Gods. I could talk all day about the problems religion has caused and I spend most of my time trying to unveil the lies they are teaching in churches.

The idea of mainstream hell was a MAN made doctrine designed to put fear in people to control them. It's not a biblical doctrine. It's political more than anything. Like you said how could a God that is good design a place like this? He wouldn't be one worth serving that's for sure. If he was loving this place would totally contradict his personality. There are many contradictions in the belief. Just one.. the ruler of hell is proposed to be the devil satan.. well that is never mentioned in the bible and God has plans of destroying him so who would rule hell if he was the king of it? Do some research on the origins of the modern hell.. you'll see where it came from. It sure didn't come from God's word.

My beliefs are based on the teachings of God and of the christ, not of some man made religion.

Like I said this is just one of those myths the churches are teaching and I spend a lot of my time trying to expose them. People don't do their research and they don't know their history. Many things that are taught in churches today come from pagan origins and are tied to some superstition or tradition that originates with men and not God.

“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

Like I said this is just one of those myths the churches are teaching and I spend a lot of my time trying to expose them. People don't do their research and they don't know their history. Many things that are taught in churches today come from pagan origins and are tied to some superstition or tradition that originates with men and not God.

That's the problem....its always been like this. There are bad people in the world and unfortunately the worse you are the more pain and suffering you inflict and you will use the most efficacious means to do so. These individuals used to use religion to exploit their fellow man and now these secular ideologies. As a great man once said judge man by the truth not the truth by man.

PS. Mr. Arnold I did not come in here to talk about God but if you'd like to PM me and tell me what science can offer me that is greater than everlasting life I'am all ears.

Actual proof.I don't know why people rely on books that are thousands of years old to further their human condition.Why would you put your life into something that will never ever change or advance.The book is there,its unchanging(just like your notion of God),which is why people discount scientific evidence-because we hadn't the evidence 2000 years ago in the back ass of nowhere(Israel)in a book written 60 years after Christ died(if he even existed).

At least science tries to advance our understanding,religon relies on the basis that your an idiot and you don't want to think about the big questions you can never answer and comes up with a solution.................God did it!Pathetic.

For some background info,growing up in Catholic Ireland you are indoctrinated at a very early age to fear God,to believe.Your pretty much an outcast if you don't believe as its been so fully integrated into our society.Religion does disgusting things to people.People who claim they are moral.They are morally retarded people who rely on outdated morals and laws to base their lives upon.

But that is my stance as a very strong atheist.If you want to remain religious and actually live morally thats fine but debating is useless without proof.Neither of us have any so lets just answer the question on coffee beans

That's the problem....its always been like this. There are bad people in the world and unfortunately the worse you are the more pain and suffering you inflict and you will use the most efficacious means to do so. These individuals used to use religion to exploit their fellow man and now these secular ideologies. As a great man once said judge man by the truth not the truth by man.

What I don't like is people that completely dismiss God because of their hatred or disprovel of religion. Don't blame God for what man has done. When Jesus came to earth he didn't come to start a new religion. Besides offering a ransom he came to teach man THE way to live. The life that leads to eternal life and happiness. People started twisting his teachings and manipulating the word of God to fit their lifestyle. This still goes on today. If people actually read the bible they would know that Jesus foretold people would be doing this. It is not supposed to be a shock or surprise that men would use religion for their own benefits. Jesus told how we would know who are his true disciples. By their actions and deeds we would know who they are.

“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

At least science tries to advance our understanding,religon relies on the basis that your an idiot and you don't want to think about the big questions you can never answer and comes up with a solution.................God did it!Pathetic.

For some background info,growing up in Catholic Ireland you are indoctrinated at a very early age to fear God,to believe.Your pretty much an outcast if you don't believe as its been so fully integrated into our society.Religion does disgusting things to people.People who claim they are moral.They are morally retarded people who rely on outdated morals and laws to base their lives upon.

But that is my stance as a very strong atheist.If you want to remain religious and actually live morally thats fine but debating is useless without proof.Neither of us have any so lets just answer the question on coffee beans

You call the bibles answers and solutions pathetic while you offer no other answers for me. Tell me why we die? Tell me what happens to us after we die? Tell me what is our true purpose on the earth? Tell me what is the path to true happiness and contentment? Can you answer these kinds of questions for me? Your more likely to try to tell me why my beliefs are pathetic than answer these questions.

The problem with the modern day man is that he's so complicated. There has to be this big/complex explanation for everything and if it's not complex it's not intelligent or logical.

Can you answer this truthfully? Your disproval of religion holds no partiality on your belief in a God?

“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

if there is a god then science is the language of god. i have a spiritual side of me but i do not think that spiritual side is seperate in any way from science. it upsets me to hear people talk about science vs. god. and it upsets me when people associate science with atheism.

my whole argument is with the dogma of organized religion. because that is anti-science. and therefore anti-god

if there is a god then science is the language of god. i have a spiritual side of me but i do not think that spiritual side is seperate in any way from science. it upsets me to hear people talk about science vs. god. and it upsets me when people associate science with atheism.

my whole argument is with the dogma of organized religion. because that is anti-science. and therefore anti-god

I have a much easier time believing god using evolution as the means of our "creation" than creating us out of thin air in a week.