We do not know what happened behind closed doors during this era, nor will we ever know.

We do not know if in fact there were incidents of the non-users confronting abusers on their respective teams.

I suspect the players who play the game clean were turned off by the ramped PED and HGH use throughout the game and did protest to mlbpa union reps.

I also suspect those same players were turned off by the rumors of possible use whenever they had a season where they themselves worked hard played within the rules and put up decent numbers and then had to listen to those rumors.

But I cannot hold it against any one player who was not involved to play sheriff to finger those that were.

Too much pressure to bear from the mlbpa, fellow players and the media who would immediately hound dog those who came forward for more information.

That they are allowing random blood testing in 2013 tells me that the tide has gradually changed within the membership of the mlbpa and for the better I might had.

Myself I prefer to focus on those who have failed tests or have had evidence come presented to prove that were involved with HGH or PEDS.

In my mind without any of those circumstances players like Mike Piazza should be left out of the conversation, he should be judged by the numbers he put up as a player alone.

That guys like Piazza have been caught up in the scandal without proof that he was involved is unfair and one of the reasons I think the MLBPA decided it was time for random blood testing.

TWM,

I don't disagree with any of your positions. I think over the years you know where I stand as well.

All I will add is you reap what you sow...the players and all involved in the facilitation of bare responsibility for where the game is today and the suspicion of and the lack of trust that we can believe any of them that declare themselves to be clean.

We do not know what happened behind closed doors during this era, nor will we ever know.

We do not know if in fact there were incidents of the non-users confronting abusers on their respective teams.

I suspect the players who play the game clean were turned off by the ramped PED and HGH use throughout the game and did protest to mlbpa union reps.

I also suspect those same players were turned off by the rumors of possible use whenever they had a season where they themselves worked hard played within the rules and put up decent numbers and then had to listen to those rumors.

But I cannot hold it against any one player who was not involved to play sheriff to finger those that were.

Too much pressure to bear from the mlbpa, fellow players and the media who would immediately hound dog those who came forward for more information.

That they are allowing random blood testing in 2013 tells me that the tide has gradually changed within the membership of the mlbpa and for the better I might had.

Myself I prefer to focus on those who have failed tests or have had evidence come presented to prove that were involved with HGH or PEDS.

In my mind without any of those circumstances players like Mike Piazza should be left out of the conversation, he should be judged by the numbers he put up as a player alone.

That guys like Piazza have been caught up in the scandal without proof that he was involved is unfair and one of the reasons I think the MLBPA decided it was time for random blood testing.

TWM,

I don't disagree with any of your positions. I think over the years you know where I stand as well.

All I will add is you reap what you sow...the players and all involved in the facilitation of bare responsibility for where the game is today and the suspicion of and the lack of trust that we can believe any of them that declare themselves to be clean.

BT

There was a cheating scandal at West Point.

This is not a perfect world we live in.

Look at cycling and Lance Armstrong and how many tours he won before one of his team mates stepped forward.

We do not know if there was peer pressure applied to the abusers, or how much, or if players turned their backs to the abuse, or if in a lot of the cases such B. Bonds it was done outside the confines of team view, we simply do not know what went on behind closed doors.

What we do know is that MLBPA is agreeing to random blood tests in 2013.

I did notice there was a lot of public commentary after the recent hof vote by former players on the use of anabolic steroids and hgh in the game and those who did not get in.

not that it's a big deal, i guess the culture we now live in(sportswise) dictates that everyone should be suspect, imo..a sad commentary on American sports

Respectfully Jete, but cycling is hardly an American sport...Peds "AKA" Sports medicine knows no boundaries...It pervasive in all sport and in fact it's origins are in fact rooted in Eastern Europe and China...

Derek Jeter is just as responsible as Bud Selig and every player that wore a unifrom in the last 20 years for hiding behind a collective bargining aggrement and allowing the use to get to the point that it literally took an act of congress to get the players association to finally relent to the pressures of congress and agree to testing. I know that you know the he knew of the use in the Yankee clubhouse and he looked the other way. Instead of standing on a chair in the middle of the clubhouse and calling out those that he knew were using...

i hear you Beans....i guess "American sports" was too broad a term...i just meant the sports where we hear most of these stories...i'm totally NOT against testing, i realize it inhererently makes all the athletes in that sport responsible

Maybe not. You remember when questions about Colon and his surgery came up, not by any help from Colon btw, it was decided they would deal with it after the season was over, which they never did, of course. The fact that he was allowed to pitch that season without even being tested, shows you have much power the Yankees have as far as MLB is concerned.

There will be no pivotal Yankee player that will be tested during the season and found to be using. Take that to the bank.

agree the proposed testing program is a step in right direction. they stop short of saying how often random testing will be done and how they will determine who gets tested, which is really the key.

I agree.

But because of the involvement of the MLBPA union and MLB you would have to think the program will be fair.

But we'll see.

I think there should be two objectives: 1) make an honest effort to clean things up even if trying to stay ahead of the cheats is ultimately futile; and 2) be seen to be making an effort to attempt to rebuild some credibility.

not that it's a big deal, i guess the culture we now live in(sportswise) dictates that everyone should be suspect, imo..a sad commentary on American sports

Respectfully Jete, but cycling is hardly an American sport...Peds "AKA" Sports medicine knows no boundaries...It pervasive in all sport and in fact it's origins are in fact rooted in Eastern Europe and China...

Derek Jeter is just as responsible as Bud Selig and every player that wore a unifrom in the last 20 years for hiding behind a collective bargining aggrement and allowing the use to get to the point that it literally took an act of congress to get the players association to finally relent to the pressures of congress and agree to testing. I know that you know the he knew of the use in the Yankee clubhouse and he looked the other way. Instead of standing on a chair in the middle of the clubhouse and calling out those that he knew were using...

i hear you Beans....i guess "American sports" was too broad a term...i just meant the sports where we hear most of these stories...i'm totally NOT against testing, i realize it inhererently makes all the athletes in that sport responsible

I think it's harsh to blame Jeter or any presumably clean player for the cheats' behaviour. Players aren't subservient to veterans and/or captains, they are peers. They are a team and shouldn't be ratting each other out as if it were a murder case.

not that it's a big deal, i guess the culture we now live in(sportswise) dictates that everyone should be suspect, imo..a sad commentary on American sports

Respectfully Jete, but cycling is hardly an American sport...Peds "AKA" Sports medicine knows no boundaries...It pervasive in all sport and in fact it's origins are in fact rooted in Eastern Europe and China...

Derek Jeter is just as responsible as Bud Selig and every player that wore a unifrom in the last 20 years for hiding behind a collective bargining aggrement and allowing the use to get to the point that it literally took an act of congress to get the players association to finally relent to the pressures of congress and agree to testing. I know that you know the he knew of the use in the Yankee clubhouse and he looked the other way. Instead of standing on a chair in the middle of the clubhouse and calling out those that he knew were using...

i hear you Beans....i guess "American sports" was too broad a term...i just meant the sports where we hear most of these stories...i'm totally NOT against testing, i realize it inhererently makes all the athletes in that sport responsible

Jete,

Don't you find it a bit curious that the NFL suspends a dozen players a year for use of and for the most part fly under the radar. While in MLB Baseball it's viewed and reported like a scandal...Part of that I think stems from our need to hold on to what has made baseball the game that it is. In a statistic driven sport, the timeless quality that allowed us to compare Babe Ruth's 714 with Hank Aaron's 755 and Barry Bonds, was lost during this ERA and replaced with an asterisk *. I also feel as though the manner in which Fehr and the player association fought the implementation of testing and the all to public nature of the congressional hearings. Where many of the players purgered themselves and the susequent trials helped to fuel what is now a three ring circus.

In the end MLB has only themselves to blame in totale, none of those that participated in allowing this to get to this point are without some level of responsibility. I too support more stringent testing and have since learning of the pervasive use by the players. I will add that testing alone won't rid the game of and until the penalty for use is such that it's prohibitive. Those looking for an edge will continue to seek out the next best scientists who have developed the means to mask the use of and the cycle will continue.

Manny Ramirez signed a 25M dollar extension with the Dodgers based on numbers he emassed while on steriods, got busted, suspended without pay for 50 games. Returned and netted 17M...

So I'll asked a simple question..Would you take an illegal substance that in so doing gave you the ability to based on your production seek compensation in your present employment. That would set you and your familiy up for life, a wage that was comensuarate with the best in your field, that you otherwise wouldn't be able to command if you were clean. One that carried a penalty if caught you'd be suspended for a month, then allowed to return thereafter, at the same wage and the only thing you'd have to sacrifice is the moneys docked while on suspension. I think most of us if honest with ourselves would indeed "drink the tonic".

It is from this prisism that MLB and every other professional or ametuer sports organization needs to view this issue. Melky Cabrera was suspended for 50 games last year, then this past offseason signed a free agent contract with the Blue Jays...So in the end, he lost a couple of million, still made a couple of million and will this year make a couple of million more. So getting busted in my mind is hardly a deterent...If they truly want to make inroads and stiffle the use of, they have to take away the very thing that motives the players to use...the game itself and the riches bestowed upon them becasue they can hit a round ball with a round bat, squarely.

I would have to think that a two year suspension without pay and the team has the option of voiding the player contract. Would serve as a far greater deterent than the current slap on the wrist of 50 games without pay. It won't elimante the cheaters from continuing to look for an edge...but will give many others pause...Locks are meant to keep honest people honest. If the penalty for murder in our society was a night in jail, the bodies would line the streets...

Maybe not. You remember when questions about Colon and his surgery came up, not by any help from Colon btw, it was decided they would deal with it after the season was over, which they never did, of course. The fact that he was allowed to pitch that season without even being tested, shows you have much power the Yankees have as far as MLB is concerned.

There will be no pivotal Yankee player that will be tested during the season and found to be using. Take that to the bank.

Yeah the Yankees will be ignored like they were in the Mitchell report.

not that it's a big deal, i guess the culture we now live in(sportswise) dictates that everyone should be suspect, imo..a sad commentary on American sports

Respectfully Jete, but cycling is hardly an American sport...Peds "AKA" Sports medicine knows no boundaries...It pervasive in all sport and in fact it's origins are in fact rooted in Eastern Europe and China...

Derek Jeter is just as responsible as Bud Selig and every player that wore a unifrom in the last 20 years for hiding behind a collective bargining aggrement and allowing the use to get to the point that it literally took an act of congress to get the players association to finally relent to the pressures of congress and agree to testing. I know that you know the he knew of the use in the Yankee clubhouse and he looked the other way. Instead of standing on a chair in the middle of the clubhouse and calling out those that he knew were using...

i hear you Beans....i guess "American sports" was too broad a term...i just meant the sports where we hear most of these stories...i'm totally NOT against testing, i realize it inhererently makes all the athletes in that sport responsible

Jete,

Don't you find it a bit curious that the NFL suspends a dozen players a year for use of and for the most part fly under the radar. While in MLB Baseball it's viewed and reported like a scandal...Part of that I think stems from our need to hold on to what has made baseball the game that it is. In a statistic driven sport, the timeless quality that allowed us to compare Babe Ruth's 714 with Hank Aaron's 755 and Barry Bonds, was lost during this ERA and replaced with an asterisk *. I also feel as though the manner in which Fehr and the player association fought the implementation of testing and the all to public nature of the congressional hearings. Where many of the players purgered themselves and the susequent trials helped to fuel what is now a three ring circus.

In the end MLB has only themselves to blame in totale, none of those that participated in allowing this to get to this point are without some level of responsibility. I too support more stringent testing and have since learning of the pervasive use by the players. I will add that testing alone won't rid the game of and until the penalty for use is such that it's prohibitive. Those looking for an edge will continue to seek out the next best scientists who have developed the means to mask the use of and the cycle will continue.

Manny Ramirez signed a 25M dollar extension with the Dodgers based on numbers he emassed while on steriods, got busted, suspended without pay for 50 games. Returned and netted 17M...

So I'll asked a simple question..Would you take an illegal substance that in so doing gave you the ability to based on your production seek compensation in your present employment. That would set you and your familiy up for life, a wage that was comensuarate with the best in your field, that you otherwise wouldn't be able to command if you were clean. One that carried a penalty if caught you'd be suspended for a month, then allowed to return thereafter, at the same wage and the only thing you'd have to sacrifice is the moneys docked while on suspension. I think most of us if honest with ourselves would indeed "drink the tonic".

It is from this prisism that MLB and every other professional or ametuer sports organization needs to view this issue. Melky Cabrera was suspended for 50 games last year, then this past offseason signed a free agent contract with the Blue Jays...So in the end, he lost a couple of million, still made a couple of million and will this year make a couple of million more. So getting busted in my mind is hardly a deterent...If they truly want to make inroads and stiffle the use of, they have to take away the very thing that motives the players to use...the game itself and the riches bestowed upon them becasue they can hit a round ball with a round bat, squarely.

I would have to think that a two year suspension without pay and the team has the option of voiding the player contract. Would serve as a far greater deterent than the current slap on the wrist of 50 games without pay. It won't elimante the cheaters from continuing to look for an edge...but will give many others pause...Locks are meant to keep honest people honest. If the penalty for murder in our society was a night in jail, the bodies would line the streets...

I agree with you about the ridiculous 50 game ban. It's a joke. There's no way MLB can be taking PEDs seriously when they HAVE TO know that that "punishment" is a joke. After watching the Lance Armstrong interview I was amazed at how organized it was. I truly believed it was guys just doing this on their own. It does appear that there are people in sports organizations who are facilitating the whole process, possibly with entire teams like cycling. Maybe they need to focus their attention there instead of individual players. I mean the blood transfusions set up in other countries, along with supplies for the entire team? Unreal. It seems it's more readily available than what it appears in baseball. And Selig has to know this as well along with management in baseball organizations.

Maybe they're not focusing on the big picture. These guys that are supplying athletes, probably like McNamee and his ilk never seem to be the focus of any accusations. And as in Clemmens trial, they wind up as guys who work to bring down the athletes. Something is wrong with that picture.

Although the topic is relevant, a thread like this is an open invitation for cranks.

No Yankee fan is going to like a conversation about PEDs. It's your money-maker.

Btw, saw you on the Pats board. Wonder if they know that someone with a screenname NHSteven is known as a Yankee fan there. I doubt it. I still don't get why some of you keep throwing your comments around without identifying yourself. You have to want it that way.

Although the topic is relevant, a thread like this is an open invitation for cranks.

No Yankee fan is going to like a conversation about PEDs. It's your money-maker.

Btw, saw you on the Pats board. Wonder if they know that someone with a screenname NHSteven is known as a Yankee fan there. I doubt it. I still don't get why some of you keep throwing your comments around without identifying yourself. You have to want it that way.

For a change, what a bunch of crock. I welcome this subject, since it's stained the game (and I'm glad the HOF voters have responded in kind). BTW. there's just as many PED users on all the teams, give or take, including your beloved Red Sox. On the Pats board, I would think my avatar would tell them, & TexasPat (I doubt U know him there, an excellent, knowledgeable poster, the guy who writes up the report cards, and is as good at it as any journalist) has complimented me on it.

Although the topic is relevant, a thread like this is an open invitation for cranks.

No Yankee fan is going to like a conversation about PEDs. It's your money-maker.

Btw, saw you on the Pats board. Wonder if they know that someone with a screenname NHSteven is known as a Yankee fan there. I doubt it. I still don't get why some of you keep throwing your comments around without identifying yourself. You have to want it that way.

For a change, what a bunch of crock. I welcome this subject, since it's stained the game. BTW. there's just as many PED users on all the teams, give or take, including your beloved Red Sox. On the Pats board, I would think my avatar would tell them, & TexasPat (I doubt U know him there, an excellent, knowledgeable poster, the guy who writes up the report cards, and is as good at it as any journalist) has complimented me on it.

And as I've told you in the past, you chose a pic that covers his shirt. Why make it such a puzzle to figure out?

Although the topic is relevant, a thread like this is an open invitation for cranks.

No Yankee fan is going to like a conversation about PEDs. It's your money-maker.

Btw, saw you on the Pats board. Wonder if they know that someone with a screenname NHSteven is known as a Yankee fan there. I doubt it. I still don't get why some of you keep throwing your comments around without identifying yourself. You have to want it that way.

For a change, what a bunch of crock. I welcome this subject, since it's stained the game. BTW. there's just as many PED users on all the teams, give or take, including your beloved Red Sox. On the Pats board, I would think my avatar would tell them, & TexasPat (I doubt U know him there, an excellent, knowledgeable poster, the guy who writes up the report cards, and is as good at it as any journalist) has complimented me on it.

And as I've told you in the past, you chose a pic that covers his shirt. Why make it such a puzzle to figure out?

That is beyond ridiculous. First of all, it wasn't on purpose. I have this avatar based on your request way back when you asked me to change it , and you thanked me at the time. And I would think most sports fans would know who it is. Certainly TexasPat did. If you want, I'll change it again.

Although the topic is relevant, a thread like this is an open invitation for cranks.

No Yankee fan is going to like a conversation about PEDs. It's your money-maker.

Btw, saw you on the Pats board. Wonder if they know that someone with a screenname NHSteven is known as a Yankee fan there. I doubt it. I still don't get why some of you keep throwing your comments around without identifying yourself. You have to want it that way.

For a change, what a bunch of crock. I welcome this subject, since it's stained the game. BTW. there's just as many PED users on all the teams, give or take, including your beloved Red Sox. On the Pats board, I would think my avatar would tell them, & TexasPat (I doubt U know him there, an excellent, knowledgeable poster, the guy who writes up the report cards, and is as good at it as any journalist) has complimented me on it.

And as I've told you in the past, you chose a pic that covers his shirt. Why make it such a puzzle to figure out?

That is beyond ridiculous. First of all, it wasn't on purpose. I have this avatar based on your request way back when you asked me to change it , and you thanked me at the time. And I would think most sports fans would know who it is. If you want, I'll change it again.

I don't remember thanking you, I remember saying I didn't know who that was since you couldn't even see his shirt. I just think it's common courtesy to disclose the fact that you're not a Boston fan on a Boston board. Especially since you apparently post on multiple Boston fan boards, which I was unaware of.

Although the topic is relevant, a thread like this is an open invitation for cranks.

No Yankee fan is going to like a conversation about PEDs. It's your money-maker.

Btw, saw you on the Pats board. Wonder if they know that someone with a screenname NHSteven is known as a Yankee fan there. I doubt it. I still don't get why some of you keep throwing your comments around without identifying yourself. You have to want it that way.

For a change, what a bunch of crock. I welcome this subject, since it's stained the game. BTW. there's just as many PED users on all the teams, give or take, including your beloved Red Sox. On the Pats board, I would think my avatar would tell them, & TexasPat (I doubt U know him there, an excellent, knowledgeable poster, the guy who writes up the report cards, and is as good at it as any journalist) has complimented me on it.

And as I've told you in the past, you chose a pic that covers his shirt. Why make it such a puzzle to figure out?

That is beyond ridiculous. First of all, it wasn't on purpose. I have this avatar based on your request way back when you asked me to change it , and you thanked me at the time. And I would think most sports fans would know who it is. If you want, I'll change it again.

I don't remember thanking you, I remember saying I didn't know who that was since you couldn't even see his shirt. I just think it's common courtesy to disclose the fact that you're not a Boston fan on a Boston board. Especially since you apparently post on multiple Boston fan boards, which I was unaware of.

this is utterly stupid. someone should not have to announce their affiliations or wear a nametag "Hi, my name is...." Grow up and get a life kim. you seem to be the only one here who cares about a posters team affiliation and motives first and quality of poster second. And as long as you hold that ignorant, narrow minded view no one here will have any respect for you...

Although the topic is relevant, a thread like this is an open invitation for cranks.

No Yankee fan is going to like a conversation about PEDs. It's your money-maker.

Btw, saw you on the Pats board. Wonder if they know that someone with a screenname NHSteven is known as a Yankee fan there. I doubt it. I still don't get why some of you keep throwing your comments around without identifying yourself. You have to want it that way.

For a change, what a bunch of crock. I welcome this subject, since it's stained the game. BTW. there's just as many PED users on all the teams, give or take, including your beloved Red Sox. On the Pats board, I would think my avatar would tell them, & TexasPat (I doubt U know him there, an excellent, knowledgeable poster, the guy who writes up the report cards, and is as good at it as any journalist) has complimented me on it.

And as I've told you in the past, you chose a pic that covers his shirt. Why make it such a puzzle to figure out?

That is beyond ridiculous. First of all, it wasn't on purpose. I have this avatar based on your request way back when you asked me to change it , and you thanked me at the time. And I would think most sports fans would know who it is. If you want, I'll change it again.

I don't remember thanking you, I remember saying I didn't know who that was since you couldn't even see his shirt. I just think it's common courtesy to disclose the fact that you're not a Boston fan on a Boston board. Especially since you apparently post on multiple Boston fan boards, which I was unaware of.

this is utterly stupid. someone should not have to announce their affiliations or wear a nametag "Hi, my name is...." Grow up and get a life kim. you seem to be the only one here who cares about a posters team affiliation and motives first and quality of poster second. And as long as you hold that ignorant, narrow minded view no one here will have any respect for you...

Sort of like the star of David; no matter; I changed it to show it's not much of an issue, for me at least.