April 2, 2011

"... flared for a second straight day, with young men rampaging through the streets of this southern capital, flying Taliban flags and wielding sticks. Nine people were killed and 81 injured in the disturbances... [S]everal thousand young men, shouting slogans calling for death to Americans and to the Karzai government, were still rioting after several hours on Saturday, setting tires aflame throughout the city, burning cars and attacking journalists trying to cover the disorder...."

374 comments:

Both Afghan and international news media had initially played down or ignored the action of Mr. Jones, the Florida pastor. This Thursday, however, President Hamid Karzai made a speech and issued statements condemning the Koran burning and calling for the arrest of Mr. Jones for his actions. On Friday that theme was picked up in mosques throughout Afghanistan.

Seriously, what are we doing over there? Our target won't come out of protected hiding as long as we are making such a major showing, anyway.

Bring the boys home, send the Muslims home and let's sit down and regroup and solve our own problems first. Unfortunately, it seems our nation needs a common enemy in order to work together. Evidently radical Islam is not that common enemy in the minds of enough Americans.

Concerning oil, we have plenty. At the end of the day, and regardless of what goes round on this big blue ball on a daily basis, it is my belief we are sucking up everybody else's and saving our own for that rainy day.

Do you know that in Afghanistan right now, there are muslims demanding these criminals be brought to justice?

Do you know any muslims personally?

1) Yes2) Yes. Some behead, some are suicide bombers, some like to pilot aircraft into buildings, some hang contractors from bridges, some kill Israeli Olympic wrestlers, some behead Wall Street Journal reporters. You are correct, they are all different.3) Which criminals? Terry Jones and his band of book burners or the machete wielding peaceniks.4) Yes

If you live your life thinking that "Muslims... are always just blowing things up and rioting and shouting 'death to Americans'," then you are a textbook bigot. You also don't read very widely and are therefore ignorant. And you haven't traveled much.

You are also defaming the names of many thousands of young muslims who have died fighting for our common cause.

If you let a couple hundred murderous rioters in Afghanistan define all muslims for you, then you are actually thinking along the same lines they do. I am not calling you a murderer or equating you morally with someone who takes a life. But you use the same logic.

MUSLIMS WERE KILLED in these attacks, Pogo. They DIED defending the UN compound. Are they not "moderates"?

The dollar is the Worlds Reserve Currency thanks to the Saudis and their oil; Bahrain hosts the US 5th. fleet; Iran is getting restless, internally and externally; Pakistan is in turmoil over drone attacks; WTI @ 107.94/B and Brent @ 118.70/B. The budget problems are going to get worse, much worse.

Franglo you are either naive or just playing April fool joke on us a day late. Do you have any clue why Libyan protesters would be waving US flags. Couldn't be they wanted Barack the Great to support their endeavor could it?

The script always ends the same over there. They will hate us no matter who wins.

These people do this sort of thing because they know the West is run by PC wussies like Little Zero and we basically won't punish them.

franglo said...

Do you know Afghanistan and Libya are not the same country?

Do you know that Muslims are not the same everywhere?

Do you know that in Afghanistan right now, there are muslims demanding these criminals be brought to justice?

Do you know any muslims personally?

Spare us the talking points.

This sort of thing has happened in Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan, and parts of Europe where the Moslems are allowed to run wild.

And, no, the guards weren't Moslems; as Sarge points out below, they were Gurkha and Gurkhas are Hindu.

(nice touch on the Ayo Gurkhali, btw)

And, probably, franglo doesn't know any more Moslems than anyone else and, except for the fact that the Lefties feel obliged to act as faux apologists for the Moslems, doesn't know anything about Moslems except what Kos tells him.

The Drill SGT said...

Well I suspect that there were a number of locals lying on the ground after the event, whose last thought was hearing:

Jai Mahakali, Ayo Gorkhali

I trust that these were 4 pagan ex-gurkhas who's ancestor also took Queen Victoria's shilling and marched over the Kyber Pass to cut Afghanis

You can argue that the Pastor is a jerk, but the Afghans exist not on a different level but in a different dimension of bigotry and hatred. The immediate response to an incident of this nature is: "Exterminate the brutes." And, of course, that's the dimension in which these pious brutes exist. They thus have greater success in transforming us than we have had in transforming them....... A substantial portion of the Afghan population are committed to violence, superstition, and misogyny. They're probably a minority, but they're the ones with velocity and momentum. They seem to be winning. If we leave, God help the people we leave behind. If we stay, God help us.

franglo, you do have a point. These people do not do what they do because they're Muslim. They do it because they're barbarians from a sociopathically twisted culture which practice a violent, hateful, xenophobic, and paranoid version of Islam. Just as there were once similar versions of Christianity, which stopped being relevant centuries ago.

But we aren't doing moderates any favors by refusing to acknowledge out that these throwbacks are also, indeed, Muslim. The bad guys deliberately do terrible things in the name of their religion to make absolutely sure we know they're Muslim. The civilized Islamic populace who see their culture being eaten alive hate these guys more than anyone. But how can they plead their case as the true face of Islam, and repudiate their violent counterparts, when we refuse to even discuss the obvious, out of fear of offending someone?

"franglo has sighted that mysterious and long-awaited unicorn, the moderate muslim."

I'm not defendingn franglo, but I would like to point out that there are several muslim countries that are very moderate. Azerbaijan is one, I served with a company of their soldiers in Iraq and they are very nice people who condemn with their actions the fanatics that attacked us. There are more, too.

Not all Muslims are so easily infuriated, but from this incident and too many others, it is painfully obvious that there is something fundamentally amiss with the world view of these people. That is a consequence of the message they are given by their religious leaders, that they are superior to all non Muslims and that any insult to their beliefs must be met with all possible force. And in this resistance, they are emulating their holy man, who performed numerous bouts of murder and plunder through his lifetime. To challenge their response is to challenge their religion.

What this behavior is intended to produce is a self censorship in western action as to not "offend" Muslims. This means one may not criticse Islam, which effectively closes any possible debate. Submit or suffer. Not many choices. We see this in Europe where even quoting from the Koran can be construed as "hate speech" when used in debate. I fear that it will become worse. Eventually there will be a nuclear Mumbai and at that moment the West will push back in a way that will be terrible to behold. But we continue to march into this madness because few in the West understand that these people actually believe what they say. And their actions are just a reflection of the insanity that has been drilled into their heads.

The dollar is the Worlds Reserve Currency thanks to the Saudis and their oil;

No, the dollar is the world's reserve currency for one reason:

You can buy useful stuff with it. If you could not, it would be like the Russian Ruble which can buy pretty much nothing besides oil, gas and babushka dolls.

For all the apparent weakness of the US dollar, we are still in business after more than 200 years. A 200 year old dollar bill is still legal tender. Other than FDRs 80% devaluation in 1933, we have never devalued or revalued our currency. (Excepting inflation, of course. A relatively recent phenomena)

We still produce almost 20% of all the manufactured goods produced in the world.

That and stability are why the dollar is the reserve currency for the world.

Incidentally, blogger sucks rocks. I know I get windy but it ate my comment again.

So... cliff notes version.

1) Quaint brown people are not stupid in their understanding of human nature. This goes for Libyans on the street with American flags, as well as the corrupt autocrat in his palace. Therefore, Karzai should be seen as having done this on purpose.

2) Obama is stupid in his understanding of human nature and has been doing his best to avoid giving leaders in the region a way to position themselves as "not an American lap dog" with mere face saving gestures. In particular he's been maintaining an insulting, dismissive relationship with Karzai.

3) Is it possible that a political philosophy that insists on viewing people as interest groups instead of individuals with individual motivations explains the inability of this administration to understand that our "allies" in the region only hold power with the appearance of the ability to stand up to world bully nations such as the United States?

Even if it doesn't explain it, it seems to be true. Democrat leadership, Kerry, Gore... used terms like "puppet" as if it didn't matter. Obama has done nothing at all to allow Karzai or anyone else in the region (Obama's election was quickly followed by regime change in Pakistan and not in our favor... or don't we remember that?) the ability to maintain a public face strong enough to defy us, freeing the leader to "cooperate" on their own terms or behind doors.

Certain types are quick to fuss over the US being a "bully" and then they turn around and seem not to have any notion whatsoever that the "public" antagonism is necessary to sooth local sensibilities and that if the US does not make itself act as if they *have* to cooperate and give in to the locals that the locals *have* to be obstructionist for real.

That or die horribly in a coup.

Obama has places us officially as not having to give a crap about what Karzai wants.

Karzai may understand that Obama can't actually do anything about some preacher in Florida, but he can afford some local riots, death and injury, far more than he can afford to appear weak.

Trump says he would leave Aghananistan. He would stay in Iraq only long enough to take enough of their oil to repay us for the $1.5 Trillion we spent there. He says American pols have forgotten about and neglected our own people and our own country.

FLS: "Muslims truly believe their holy book is holy, while Christians do not."

Absolutely correct and if Christians did believe that the actual, physical, printed book was holy they would not react to its desecration in the way the Muslims routinely do. Christians are living in the 21st century whilst the Muslims in question live rather longer ago.

"Muslims truly believe their holy book is holy, while Christians do not."

FLS, just because YOU do not feel visceral anger when your religion is insulted doesn't mean that a lack of violent response means other people don't feel it.

You've seen the series Firefly, yes? Recall the scene where River is tearing pages out of the Bible? That only works, in context of the show, because the audience DOES respond to it with appropriate outrage. Not with violence, of course, but with an understanding of the scope of her transgression.

I find it hard believe that Jesus would be getting violent over someone destroying a bible. If your religion finds paper spit out by printing presses in a company somewhere for profit, then I would rethink that part.

I think that part of what makes *Christians* angry about this Muslim crap is that we've gone through our lives constrained from being able to express that we even CARE when we are offended by insults to our religion, by moron-Darwin-fish or t-shirt slogans or bumper stickers or, worse, the sorts who think they are being *tolerant* when delivering saccharine and self-serving homilies that amount to approval of the quaint and insipid.

"Jesus called, he wants his religion back."

And you just about *seethe* because you KNOW KNOW KNOW that the person being so incredibly CUTE would never ever put a bumper sticker on their car that said "Mohammad called, he wants his religion back." Or an Islamic version of some of the Wiccan themed anti-paternalistic-god cuteness. You'll never see it.

Never.

And then someone comes along and excuses Muslims because, well, something is *hard* or makes them feel bad, and since we don't CARE then we can't understand what it's like to be insulted and have to just TAKE IT.

FLS, just because YOU do not feel visceral anger when your religion is insulted doesn't mean that a lack of violent response means other people don't feel it.

I dunno. Muslims may not even touch the Koran unless they have gone through the purification ritual. Ideally they should dress up as though to visit a King before they read it. I don't see that sort of respect for the Bible.

"Young men rampaging through the streets, nine people were killed and 81 injured in the disturbances... [S]everal thousand young men were still rioting after several hours on Saturday, setting tires aflame throughout the city, burning cars and attacking journalists trying to cover the disorder...."

But, please, regard them all as perfectly normal, putting ideas such as cultism and brainwashing as far out of your minds as possible.

"I dunno. Muslims may not even touch the Koran unless they have gone through the purification ritual. Ideally they should dress up as though to visit a King before they read it. I don't see that sort of respect for the Bible."

You're not going to *see* the Muslims do it either. Or do you not RECALL the news story early on in Iraq about some guy who SLUGGED HIS MOTHER because American troops came to his house and pulled his girly magazines out from his mattress and set them next to the Koran, which was all more or less in the same place before they came, the Americans didn't go GET his Koran and place them together, but the revelation of it was the important part. Not where he kept the Koran or how he treated it, but that it was revealed and his girly mags were set there for others to see.

So he hit his mother. Because his manhood was insulted, and after all, he couldn't exactly hit American soldiers.

Oh, and the hitting his mother part and the OUTRAGE were reported locally, not by us, because it was assumed, I'm assuming!, that other people would agree with his actions. He had no choice! He was insulted.

Christians spend big-bucks on bible carriers, special non-bleed through highlighting pencils, and generally don't throw the book away, not ever.

And just because you've never encountered the person in charge of the altar area in the church sanctuary upset because someone arranged the the candle stick too far forward so it was in front of the Bible doesn't mean that there are not *elaborate* rules or that there are people who care about them.

And REALLY! Do you honestly think that the rioters keep their own Korans correctly, wash and purify and dress up to read them?

I usually have respect for religions, even when I can't accept what they preach, but violence in response to someone destroying their own inanimate object on the other side of the world is just embarrassingly vile. But there are some who are quite happy to see this, and they are the problem for us all.

Fuck the Koran. It's just paper. I could give a pig's ass for it's purported holiness, being as it represents something that simply doesn't exist.

Burn it? No problem. I'll rub it with a fucking pork chop I want to. I could care less. Stomp it. Piss on it. Flush it. It's all the same, and it's just meaningless trash printed on wood pulp.

The Bible? It's just as meaningless, but I respect it as a part of my culture, which by any standard, is far superior to that of the Muslims. Muslims I have no respect for, as long as they practice barbarism, or condone it with silence, in the name of Allah and his pederast Prophet.

Fuck Terry Jones. He also represents something that simply does not exist. He's no better than, and just as superstitious as the barbarian boy fuckers in Afghanistan. If you locked him, Fred Phelps and a bunch of Afghans in a closet together, I'm pretty confident that they'd all come out alive having found common ground and cause.

They are all scum, living their lives in the service of an imaginary thunder/sun/moon god because they fear a nonexistent hereafter.

The worship of a dead object is rather stupid since it cannot reply to prayer, or even take care of itself. but the act of worship submits worshippers to the authority of the spirit within the idol object being worshipped. The spirit in Islam and its sacred objects has always been the Anti-Christ spirit. Islam's has only one enemy: The Lord Jesus, The Christ, the Son of God. Without that enemy, korans and Islam would be unnecessary, and the Arabs could revert to their original tribal worship of a Black Rock representing the Moon god and still kept in its idol house in Mecca.

Do Americans care about anything as much as Muslims care about the Koran? What if Pastor Jones had wiped his ass at the gravesite of a soldier killed in action with the American flag he took from the coffin?

Uh, no -- South Park has mocked all religions, including Islam. Mohammed (along with Jesus) was a superhero in the 'Super Best Friends' episode, and comedy central cut their depiction of Mohammad in an episode following the Danish cartoon uproar. Later, they dressed Mohammad up in a Bear Suit:

"If we know the consequences of desecrating their holy book I would hope that none of us would desecrate it."

What else can we apply that to, FLS.

And at what point does our compliance put the mythical "moderate muslim" in further risk? You saw the video of that Pakistani actress tearing into the cleric for disapproving of her? She's willing to defend herself and name the sins and rules he failed to follow, to condemn his sin as much as he was attempting to shame her (including sexual abuse by the clergy!).

If she knew the consequences of that, wouldn't she refrain from doing it?

"They don't believe in the freedom of speech in Afghanistan, correct?"

Do you think that it all depends on what people believe in? Nothing is real or true if someone just believes something different?

Liberty, freedom of conscience, and on the other side... what?

If people "believe" in slavery (as many Islamic nations still do) does that mean that we need to go with that if we happen to be in their country?

Are there no actual truths? No principles? Nothing that the human spirit needs and is Good no matter where you go?

The Taliban is vile. The country of Afghanistan under their rule was a hell hole with enforced policies that resulted in dead babies. Lots of dead babies. The highest infant mortality rate in the entire world.

Do we defend their *belief* that women shouldn't be educated at all and that women can not ever under any circumstances see a doctor since doctors are all male?

Really?

And should we view freedom of speech as some cute thing WE do but not important. Not important at all. Not something anyone else needs anywhere else if it's not their current custom. It has no value other than our belief in it? It's not really true?

When our founders said that we had inalienable rights given us by our creator, they were saying that laws or customs could not be made to either deny those rights or even to grant them. So, Afghanis have the RIGHT to free speech, to freedom of conscience and religion. Women aren't less human because they live in Afghanistan and are subject to "beliefs" in that country.

Beliefs don't change human reality.

The notion that they DO is not open-minded or tolerant or anything Good at all.

We're supposed to be forced by this to turn against our insistence that the government may NOT restrict speech, that the Florida pastor has a right to do what he did, and we're supposed to turn against that, against our principles, to prove that their principles are the correct ones.

"..What if Pastor Jones had wiped his ass at the gravesite of a soldier killed in action with the American flag he took from the coffin?.."

I'd be interested in hearing what you would say about it. If Micheal Moore did it I'd bet money we would be getting a post about how America was the envy of the world in re to our 'tolerance'. How we are stronger for it, ......(insert usual apologetics)

I think that the most insulting thing is actually that insistence that Afghanis are something Other.

True enough, the rioters are likely not deep thinkers. But there is this subtext going on that those people can't help being what they are, that they can't be expected to understand or be modern or rational.

Used to be "liberal" to believe that the human experience was universal.

Now it's all about proving your open mindedness by insisting that the human experience is not universal.

The practice of picking out terrible incidents of violence and abuse in muslim countries and drawing conclusions from it is a bit rich-- especially if you live in a country with more than its fair share of murders, rapes, incarceration, execution, and all manner of horrors, like the USA. When foreigners use those as examples of what we are "like" we rightly mock them.

Criminals are criminals-- no matter where they are. Check out crime RATES in places like Egypt. They are extremely low. When you pick and choose events to focus on all you are doing is seeking to bulwark your prejudices.

"I hope Terry Jones burns a Koran every day for the next twenty years. You can only be outraged about something for so long."

From the NY Times article:

"Also on Saturday, a team of suicide bombers tried to breach the front gate at an American military base in Kabul, Camp Phoenix, said Mohammed Zahir, chief of the criminal investigation division of the Kabul Police. Two of them were disguised as women, wearing full-length burqas, and two others were carrying small arms, he said. One of the burqa-clad bombers detonated his explosives at the gate of the camp, and the other managed to get about five yards inside the gate before setting off his device. The other two attackers were shot and killed by guards before they could enter, he said."

Fortunately, no Americans were killed in this assault.

Look, Pastor Jones obviously has the right to burn the Koran. But why can't he and his group hold a private burning ceremony if burning if is so important to him?

I believe we should support the troops in any way we can. They already have plenty to contend with over there.

and so franglo--you assume these countries accurately report crime statistics? Here is he gig dude--you would rather live in saudi arabia or egypt that the US--then by all means emigrate--you are in for a major surprise. Are you really this stupid?

Yes Roger J., I've read your genocide fantasies in the comments here before. You are an oil man or a security contractor? You went over there to make money? And you can judge entire nations and races based on that. And you think "the world would be better off without them." Yet, I can't DARE call you a racist, bigot, ignorant fool. Because wanting a race to disappear from the world isn't RACIST.

I've been all over the middle east and I've met bright young people and gracious old people and kind people and people who looked like brothers of mine. FUCK YOU.

You can't quite seem to grasp the concept that what you just described in the USA is not a product of a fanatic religious culture.

There are no moderate Muslims. That particular animal does not exist. If they're not actively involved with creating violence in the name of their god, then they are condoning it by their silence and conditional condemnation.

Muslims are worthy of insult and disrespect; they've earned it. Respect is not inherent. It must be earned, and I see nothing in Islam that is worthy of respect.

I do believe I shall burn a Koran. But first, I'm gonna immerse it in bacon grease.

I have eaten goat guts with the beds in SA in the desert--I can speak passable arabic--and if you want to know what most beds (thats bedouins for the uninitated wanted to know was do american men eat pussy)

I am actually quite versed in arabic literature including the Muquadimmah by Ibn Khaldun--I know the five pillars of Islam far better than do you--

so spare me your fucking bull shit and ignorant pleadings--you are about dumb as a rock

now go fuck yourself (but dont let the mutawahiin see you doing that or you will end up on chop chop square in Riyadh after mosque on Friday)

"Nice dodge. I don't know or care why he doesn't go. You're not there doing constructive work for the down-trodden, so you apparently don't care much either."

No, I'm not over there myself but I do have a young nephew in the Army. I'd like him not to become a unnecessary causality in this war, which was originally suppose to be about killing or capturing bin Laden, because some Pastor doesn't have the balls to put his own life on the line for his showboating bullshit.

First I want to praise you for your deep knowledge of the culture of the people you hate. You have even read some of their books. Good for you-- Goebbels was also a very educated man. Can you address, though, that you have repeatedly said that you would like to exterminate all the Arabs? That's more the issue for me.

I can't prove to you that I've traveled in the muslim world, any more than you can prove it to me. But I know I have, and I know who I met. I met people pious in their faith in Islam, who were nonetheless kind, thoughtful, funny, and gentle people who would never dream of beheading anyone. I've actually been to Afghanistan several times. It's definitely not Denver. But I met a lot of really great friends there, so when you talk shit it actually pisses me off. So, to reiterate, FUCK YOU.

"- are we not also trying to win their hearts and minds so they will not side with the Taliban?"

If you read the article it included a quote "but don't use my name please" of a business owner, IIRC, who said Karzai should have known better. The riots don't win any hearts and minds for the Taliban. Not with thinking people. It's only bleeding heart "don't offend the quaint brown people" sorts in the US who think that WE lose hearts and minds when the radicalized Muslims or simple rioting thugs start killing people and destroying property, probably because they assume that none of *them* are thinking people.

Granted, the business owner fussing at Karzai's choice not to calm people instead of inciting them, probably has a profit motivation instead of a prophet motivation, if you know what I mean, nudge nudge, wink wink.

There was talk earlier in this very thread of the beautiful actress confronting the pathetic loser about his evilness being expressed through Islam and her fighting against that.

Pogo, since your hatred has blinded you, I must inform you the actress is moderate. You don't need to ask anyone for a pic anymore, they have VIDEO(!) linked over at the Ace of Spades (hell, maybe here at the Althouse blog too). The post is titled: Pakistani Actress Fearlessly, Furiously Assails Hard-Core "Cleric" In TV "Courtroom" and is accurately described.

http://minx.cc/?post=314046

From a previous comment on this thread it's evident Trooper York knows some "tolerant" Muslims, Pogo you should ask him if they are "moderate" from his impression. The more knowledge you can get Pogo, the better.

"...It's only bleeding heart "don't offend the quaint brown people" sorts in the US who think that WE lose hearts and minds when the radicalized Muslims or simple rioting thugs start killing people and destroying property, probably because they assume that none of *them* are thinking people."

I wonder what the soldiers at Camp Phoenix, who repelled the assault by those angered by the Koran burning, have to think about that?

That's not to say that the adherents of the religion of peace are hornets. They are more like termites. They should live happily in a rotted tree trunk in the middle of the forest. But you don't want to invite them into your house. They will multiply too fast and undermine your foundation.Just sayn'

Nit- We didn't originally go to Afghanistan to catch or kill Bin Laden. We went to Afghanistan to deny Bin Laden and Al Qaida a safe haven. That's where we get into "nation building" in an attempt not to leave a vacuum, to throw out one demon only to have seven more move back in.

The wisdom or possibility of that is up for discussion, but it was never as simple as "get Bin Laden" for anyone aware enough not to view the war as a police-like judicial-court action aimed at an individual.

On an average I encouter about seven to eight devout Muslims a day in NYC. From the guy who sells me my coffee and donut in the morning to the car service driver who drives me home from the train station at night. I have heard them talk about politics many times. None of them are moderates.

Well if you think Reinhard Heydrichis a moderate then maybe you would think they are too.

36, they didn't win OUR hearts and minds by what they did attacking the gate dressed up like girls, and they didn't win any local hearts and minds either. Mostly they just died.

But what Petraeus did, really, was understand that Al Qaeda in Iraq were animals, acted like animals, and were preying on locals and that we could take advantage of that.

We'd ALWAYS been on about winning hearts and minds. We're Americans. That's what we do. Fuss about winning hearts and minds.

What we started to do with COIN was recognize the opportunity to join with local communities against the predations of Al Qaeda and various "insurgent" groups.

The notion that the rioters are winning support for the Taliban in Afghanistan is ridiculous. If that's how it works we could win hearts and minds by flattening a few villages in retaliation, "Look what you made us do!" But the people trying to make a living who are having their property destroyed know who did it, no matter if they know who not to piss off by complaining and letting anyone know they did.

They've ALL got those union stickers in their shop windows, believe you me.

"..Pogo, since your hatred has blinded you, I must inform you the actress is moderate. You don't need to ask anyone for a pic anymore, they have VIDEO(!) linked over at the Ace of Spades (hell, maybe here at the Althouse blog too). The post is titled: Pakistani Actress Fearlessly, Furiously Assails Hard-Core "Cleric" In TV "Courtroom" and is accurately described..."

Where do you think she will be at this time next year? The same place as the 'moderates' in Egypt,Tunisia, and Yemen is my guess.

We do know that she is interested in making money and supporting her family, brothers and sisters. And we know that she's comfortable having a secular part of her life.

That says nothing about her understanding of Islam or her politics.

The cleric, if you recall, was upset that she wasn't a missionary. He didn't use those terms, but it was the gist of it. She was supposed to be actively promoting Islam and Pakistani piety as an ambassador simply because she'd traveled to another nation.

Her argument was that she was not *indecent* by Islamic standards (not all require head coverings, even, much less burquas) and that she wasn't doing anything wrong but that her show didn't allow anyone to promote their religion.

He fussed.

She started yelling at him about his warped priorities, the really bad stuff he ought to be worried over instead of her, the fact that if she was to be condemned for immorality that he condemned himself many times over in the same breath for so much as looking at her.

But the Pakistani news service had no qualms about broadcasting her image and, when it comes down to it, Indian entertainment media is notoriously prudish.

But is she "moderate?"

Who knows.

She is out to make money, though. Which means her motivations and judgment are suspect.

I liked it a lot. Some things reminded me strongly of home and made me homesick for small town rural poverty. Some things were frustrating, like how if the locals didn't understand you they'd pretend they did because they were being polite by not implying that your English was bad. It was interesting how, when you're there, it doesn't feel foreign. I don't know how people can travel and *feel* as if they are in a foreign place. Nothing is exotic to people who live there, and unless you're there and still separate from them, it doesn't feel exotic to you, either.

Which may explain one reason I get so freaking annoyed at anyone who starts to argue like people aren't people. The multi-culturalist lie.

"The notion that the rioters are winning support for the Taliban in Afghanistan is ridiculous. If that's how it works we could win hearts and minds by flattening a few villages in retaliation, "Look what you made us do!" But the people trying to make a living who are having their property destroyed know who did it, no matter if they know who not to piss off by complaining and letting anyone know they did."

The General's thoughts regarding the planned burning on Sep 11, 2010:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11209738

He states:

"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," Gen Petraeus said in a statement to US media. "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems."

Pastor Jones knew this. He had even received a personal call from the SecDef the last time.

This started with a fools errand launched by Bush and the neocons, with some ideological backing from the Left.

Islam is the religion of Peace.The noble people of Iraq and Afghanistan are Just Like Us - simply waiting for us to deliver the gifts of Freedom!! and Democracy - to their eternal gratitude toawrds us.

It was a false belief.

Unlike many, I do not think Islam is universally bad - as there are countries that are Muslim that are indeed moderate. However, we all know those "moderate Muslims" are pretty much like the white Southerners that were disgusted and appalled by violence and racist bigotry, but kept their own counsel.You know, the "good men" at the edge of a mob lynching a nigger..wisely and quietly muttering to themselves "this is sad and wrong".

Bush and the neocons came up against limits. It is one thing to change our own country with civil rights and tripling the prisons to hold violent black men enjoying their new-found freedoms a bit too much...it is another to nation-build a country that doesn't care much for invading foreigners trying to nation-build them.

Get out of Afghanistan. If we have 100,000 troops once there, now with nothing to do, send them where they are wanted. Rebuilding US cities, helping the Japanese, guarding our Border.

"That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you."

"If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,both its people and its livestock."

"Because the man who decided to kill is brown and not responsible for humane behavior?"

As I responded earlier to Synova:

General Petraeus' thoughts on this activity:

"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," Gen Petraeus said in a statement to US media. "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11209738

Pastor Jones knew this. He had even received a personal call from the SecDef the last time.

"And you just made the argument that the violent Muslims are bad guys.

"For every terrorist activity you can pin on Christians, dozens of times the amount can be blamed on Islamofascists. Explain."

Yes, so why do we have people who want to continue to inflame them? I have to wonder if Pastor Jones would be so in favor of publicly burning Korans if he had a son or daughter on the front lines in Afghanistan?

I think the Afghans have a far greater chance of brutalizing us than we have of civilizing the Afghans. We should be looking for the exit ramp. And when we leave, we should make it clear to anyone associated with the Karzai government that they will not be granted visas for the USA after their opium den fogs over. Let them take their boastful pride and unfurl it against the Taliban instead of us.....The Afghans can be conquered. See Alexander, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane et al. The trick is to hate them much more than they hate us. That could develop.

Suppose I, and my like-minded friends, decide to have a Koran burning in my front yard and we advertise the event. Now suppose, as we are preparing the fire on the appointed day, a group of Islamist terrorists burst into my neighbor's house, take her entire family hostage, and threaten to execute them all if I burn the Koran. My response is to give an impassioned oration on the importance of free speech and then I go ahead with the Koran burning. The terrorists carry out their threat and execute my neighbor and her entire family.

Do I have any moral responsibility for the deaths of my neighbor and her family?

We in the U.S. have the right of free speech because the 1st of Amendment of the Constitution restricts our government in denying us that right. Obviously, the Constitution has no influence on the Afghans.

Knowing how the terrorist would react to the burning of the Koran, I would say that you do I have some moral responsibility for the deaths of your neighbor and her family?

Lol 100 people? Do you like pulling number out of your distended ass? A mob of 100 could have never stormed the place, overwhelmed those guards and killed all those people, common sense would let you know that.

The number I heard was 20,000. Pretty big difference.

Really it's no use to consider the moderates in the Muslim world because they're not the ones wearing the pants, if you know what I mean.

Moderates are either a minority or a really, really, incredibly quiet majority.

It's the fanatics we have to deal with. They set the agenda, write the laws, control the clergy...they're in total command everywhere except a few places like Turkey and Albania.

So spare me the talk of "They're not all extremists!" What difference does it make?

mtrobertsattorney said...The question, at least as it appears to me, is this:

Suppose I, and my like-minded friends, decide to have a Koran burning in my front yard and we advertise the event. Now suppose, as we are preparing the fire on the appointed day, a group of Islamist terrorists burst into my neighbor's house, take her entire family hostage, and threaten to execute them all if I burn the Koran. My response is to give an impassioned oration on the importance of free speech and then I go ahead with the Koran burning. The terrorists carry out their threat and execute my neighbor and her entire family.

Do I have any moral responsibility for the deaths of my neighbor and her family?

==================It is a stupid question. If your culture and freedoms are threatened by the blackmail of violence - do you have moral responsibility to capitulate to save your neighbors from Islamist goons in all circumstances where killing the neighbors would be a more serious thing than the freedoms and rights you agree to abjure to in the face of violence??

What if they invaded and said they would spare the neighbors if you agreed from that day on to force your wife and daughters to wear tents with eyeslits and beat them if they try and refuse - as a price for sparing your neighbors. Would you have "moral responsibility" for the harm the Islamoids then did if you refuse? After all, isn't forcing women in certain fashion standards less harmful than not agreeing to, and "causing deaths"?

My stance would be a lot more direct. Any harm the Islamoids did in attempting to use threats to dictate changes to the American culture and Constitution would be on them.Threaten to kill "infidels" and we will try and rescue the hostages. Kill them and cops go in with orders to drop any Islamoid down for the count. Two in the chest, one in the head. Take no chances. No ACLU progressive jewish or Leftist lawyer will come to their rescue demanding Mirandizing and full "due process".And after that, all Islamoid family members associated with the hostage taking Islamoid terrorists would be deported back to Camel Land as undesirable aliens.

So much for your hypothetical. As was said early in our history - you cannot but a pricetag on our norms and cultural standards and deepest values - so - "Millions for defense, not One Cent for Tribute".And even the Eurocrats are admitting the failure of Multi-Kulti.The Yugoslavians had it wrong, "Diversity is NOT our greatest strength". Witness the now-extinct Yugoslavian nation.

Hombreshitheadfuck-o-potamus (who used to call himself "El Hombre, but changed it after he/she was feminized to "Elle" Hombre) garbled:

And, of course, the existence of homosexuals is not an affront to Christians.

Nevertheless, how about naming the country.

It's called "Uganda", you geopolitical illiterate, and the policy was encouraged by that moderate James Dobson and his Focus on the Family group.

BTW, next time you try to dodge with that ridiculous "hate the sin, lover the sinner" cop-out, I'll just remind you of these pictures. Notice how they say "God Hates Fags", and not "God hates the supposed sin of engaging in homosexual behavior but feels perfectly fine about the person identified by his sexual orientation".

Oh, and you can fuck off, too.

Roger and the others, and there were some perfectly unobjectionable points by many others in this thread who can criticize an obviously problematic culture without it devolving into a blanket tribal ignorance, they're fine too.

"We in the U.S. have the right of free speech because the 1st of Amendment of the Constitution restricts our government in denying us that right. Obviously, the Constitution has no influence on the Afghans.

Knowing how the terrorist would react to the burning of the Koran, I would say that you do I have some moral responsibility for the deaths of your neighbor and her family?"

No.

Now here's a few questions for you. Do you think the Danish cartoonists who drew Mohammed are partially responsible for the resulting deadly riots that killed dozens of people in the Muslim world?

I don't know why you think people would share your sick moral inversion. Jerry Jones burned a book. That in no way makes him responsible for anyone's murder.

I'm specifically talking about Bryan C. and Skyler, (although Trooper and others apply as well). They're fine in my book. I've got no problem with intelligently criticizing a culture - your own or anyone else's - provided you speak from experience and aren't just being a propaganda tool. The blind haters on the right are no better than the blind lovers on the left.

"I don't know why you think people would share your sick moral inversion. Jerry Jones burned a book. That in no way makes him responsible for anyone's murder."

Our Constitution and the rights it protects have no influence on the Afghans. They could care less what our Constitution states or our rights. Knowing how they will react to the burning of the Koran, do you think that is responsible?

Again, Gen Petraeus' stated:

"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," Gen Petraeus said in a statement to US media. "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems."

Roger and the others, and there were some perfectly unobjectionable points by many others in this thread who can criticize an obviously problematic culture without it devolving into a blanket tribal ignorance, they're fine too. "

Lol I love how you tell another commenter to fuck off just for offering their opinion but then you soft roll a critism of murderous 7th century barbarians as having a "problematic culture".

These sorts of topics are great for tying leftists into knots. The whole idea of this oppressive and openly aggresive religion filled primarily with brown people doesn't fit well with the cultural Marxist dialectic of all evils being caused by historical forces.

But I like the fact that you tried to thread the needle of your bullshit ideology by giving the murderous barbarians a rhetorical slap on the wrist.