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8w7 vs 8w9 (fast) differences?

okay I know I should really get the book but this is a forum and I can ask you people who have it >:3 :P

And yes, I know that the variants in each type would matter in the differences so let's just stick to sx/sp, k?

Let's see what we have from ocean-moonshine:

Originally Posted by ocean-moonshine

Sexual/Self-pres

This subtype is a very charismatic. They have a very assertive energy and they demand attention. The lust of the Eight combines with the sexual instinct to make one of the most fiery of the combinations of all of the enneatypes, especially if Seven is the dominant wing. Sexual/self-pres Eights aren’t afraid to tell you what they think. The "can do" attitude that the other subtypes have is now intertwined with an outward passionate storm of energy. The sexual/self-pres Eight will be similar to the self-pres/sex Eight with respect to interests and attachment to close friends and family, but the intensity level is augmented. Since the sexual instinct is first, these Eights usually don't let an opportunity pass by to connect with those they find interesting. They can sense the power in any situation and they like to challenge people. They can enjoy making others react to them, keeping others on their toes, to find out what makes them tick. They are likely to use humor to accomplish this. When sex/self-pres Eights are unbalanced, they are very quick to anger and have a difficult time controlling their impulses.

Basic 8 sx/sp.

Aaand we have the wing description:

Eights with a Seven wing tend to be more expansive extroverted and openly aggressive than those with the Nine wing. They are more likely to be sensation seekers and are generally more overtly ambitious than those with a Nine wing. Eights with a Seven wing especially tend to relish intensity of experience. Conversely, Eights with a Nine wing hold more of their energy in reserve and exhibit more of a grounded, even stubborn quality. They are generally less obviously volatile than Eights with a Seven wing but can slip just as radically into open aggression when pushed.

Okay so we have an 8w9 bear. According to Aleksei (we chatted on IM and we don't have the logs, sorry) a fast 9 wing would seem like a 7? What are the subtleties that differentiate an 8w7 and an 8w9 fast?

The main reason they can sometimes be confused is that both types can be extremely busy and both are usually rather ebullient and happy. Furthermore, the defense mechanisms of both types are similar: both have repressed their inner worlds—Nines to maintain their identification with an idealized other, Sevens to avoid cutting themselves off from sources of external stimulation.

A deeper understanding of the Nine's psyche comes from realizing that the Nine orients itself to the world by introverting on the "sensation" of possessing union with another–by introjecting another, and then idealizing that introjection. To put this in simpler terms, their sense of self comes from the emotion they feel when they sense their identification with another person, much as a pregnant woman introverts with thoughts of love for her unborn child. By talking to the child in her womb, she gains a sense of herself as a mother. In a similar way, Nines commune with their inner sensations (identifications), maintaining their sense of self by living through an identification with another person. Hence they correspond to the Jungian introverted sensation type.

This introversion accounts for the inner life of Nines, which is largely out of view, protected in the inner sanctum of their psyches so that it cannot be easily disturbed or changed. It is in their dealings with the outside world that Nines can resemble Sevens.

I would think that a fast 9 would resemble a 7 because they would be rather exuberant.

hmm i'm still not completely sure what you mean.
but i do know (i think) an esfp 9w8 who comes off as a 7. i think the main difference is seeking out excitement vs comfort. and complacency vs restlessness.

The wing represent how 8s are involved in their passion for lust. 8w7s are more into mental planification, quick adaptater and planner who organize their plans and projects for lust and pleasure or reorganize it quickly in a plan A - plan B - plan C way; 8w9 are less mental, more relaxed and centered on their body with that smooth force and energy, navigates between instinctive appetite, jovial, and calm quiet and indifferent. Integration in 2 manifest more with 8w7s in disarming people toward joke, charm and manipulation, or fastuous, grandiloquent, joking, patying generosity, in 8w9, it's more manifested toward a smooth merging with other people's need.

"Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

Barbara Stanwick is a 8w9 Sx/Sp and Joan Crawford is a 8w7 Sx/Sp. Barbara come primarly as strong but she has that smooth energy and that emphasis that Joan Crawford have not. Joan is more mental, planner, strategist and analytical, she use the 7s process of rationalisation.

8w9 can be intelectual too, Henry Kissinger is a 8w9 Sp/So, but he's ultimately quiet and smooth and his intelectual abilities are not a defense mechanism, an 8w7 Sp/So is Donald Trump, who always build multiple plans for pleasant options. Henry Kissinger is a strategist, but don't need to be in a plan A/ plan B/ plan C way to have pleasure, when there's pleasure, he quietly and simply get it. 8w7s are instinctive/mental while 8w9s are "double instinctive", wich means that 8w7s use more their mental as a defense mechanism, to extend/preserve their force, their empire and build mutiple options and plans while 8w9s are more that smooth moving force wich goes with the flow.

James Brown is totally a "body" person, round and bubbling who jumps everywhere, he can think when he have to think but is not especially a "thinker" person, Barbara Walters is very in her head, analysing her own plans and project, not a belonging and going with the flow guy like James Brown is.

EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

Chaotic Neutral

E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

"I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

"Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

The enneagram is basically a typology of neuroses. The wing gives nuance to the central fixation of the type, and the instinctual variant indicates which area of the subject's life the fixation is most likely to play out. Oceanmoonshine's descriptions imply this, but it's a lot more obvious if you look at Udit Patel's description of the sx-first 8:

Sexual Eights are charismatic and emotionally intense: they seem to "smolder." These Eights seek intensity through relationship, and the ups and downs of their lives are often seen in terms of relationship. The Sexual Eight wants to "imprint" their significant other, to leave their mark. Whether they are dealing with love interests or are engaged in other activities, they enjoy the thrill of intense stimulation and can become addicted to adrenaline rushes. They often adore the people they are in love with, but they can develop problems from thinking of the other as a child that they want to shape and develop. Much of this comes from wanting the partner to be strong enough so that the Sexual Eight can relax and surrender themselves. Thus, they may provoke their loved ones in the effort to test their strength or to build it up. Similarly, they like to be challenged by the other, but this can deteriorate into a struggle for dominance in the relationship. They may resort to arguments or verbal sparring as a way of stimulating intensity in the relationship. Sexual Eights can also feel as though they "own" their intimate partner—that they have a right to satisfaction whenever they need it. (Enneagram Blogspot)

So to answer your question about an 8w9 sx/sp versus an 8w7. From the same page, a quote on LBJ is pretty typical 8w9 sx:

"While Lyndon Johnson was not, as his two assistants knew, a reader of books, he was, they knew, a reader of men--a great reader of men. He had a genius for studying a man and learning his strengths and weaknesses and hopes and fears, his deepest strengths and weaknesses: what it was that the man wanted--not what he said he wanted but what he really wanted--and what it was that the man feared, really feared."

Whereas when I think of 8w7 leader, sx or otherwise, I think more of Napoleon. Still equally power-focused, but with a more intellectual bent:

In order to govern, the question is not to follow out a more or less valid theory but to build with whatever materials are at hand. The inevitable must be accepted and turned to advantage.

And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth