Academically: AFAIK they are from out of state and would have to pay out of state tuition and fees to be enrolled at Cal.

I think Winston is from Southern California. I think McCullough is from another state but his first year at Cal may have been sufficient to establish residency. If this is correct they'll also not have to pay out-of-state rates at CCSF.

No way he would have residency after one year at Cal. If that were true, the applications would be close to double.

They explored some of the options and eventually rejected additional opportunities put forward but they definitely didn't tell Cal how any of it went or of their ultimate intentions to enroll at CCSF.

really immature... as they say never burn bridges....

How many times has this happened in the history of Cal basketball? Forcing guys out without any behavior or academic reasons? Yeah, other guys have transferred because they could see the writing on the wall, but here were two guys who thought being at Cal was a really good thing, wanted to be student athletes, and end up alums-you know, kind of like most of us. We can wish that they handled it differently, but this was messed up by the coaching staff. Their actions, even if we don't like them, isn't going to change the origin of this mess. Be happy its over, but blasting the kids?

How do you know that was what they wanted ("being at Cal")? Sounds like they had that option, if they chose it.

These two guys got accepted into Cal because of basketball and got 25% of their undergraduate education (freshman year) paid for. How many seniors in high school would cherish that advantage? I know my kids would.

They also could have continued their scholarships here, if they chose to do that.

The part of all of this that the coaching staff messed up the worst was "reaching" on two guys who couldn't play at this level. After that mistake, what were they supposed to do? It's a tough world out there.

Sounds like this rather unfortunate situation is being resolved about as well as it can be, for all parties.

My point was that they chose to be at Cal by accepting the scholarship offers. They wanted a chance to see if they could continue their college education and still play basketball...I don't put them down for having that wish.

They needed a parent to sit them down and help them see the light. It's a shame they left Cal, IMO. There's no substitute for the experience or education. It seems like an incredible waste to throw that away for a year of JC hoops.

They are trying to continue playing basketball while going to college. Staying at Cal didn't allow them that opportunity. No reason to believe their parents didn't support that decision.

They didn't need to be injury retirements to keep their scholarships but they had no injuries of note for the team to claim an injury retirement to get the schollies back if they decided to remain.

Exactly. If the kids were being "malicious" they would have stayed at Cal on scholarship and gotten degrees, or at least not have left until they had another scholarship offer. We would not be able to use those scholarships during that time. I am sure that leaving for CCSF was not their first choice. I am sure they were hoping for scholarship offers at a D1 or D2 school. Leaving for CCSF and giving back the scholarships was a great outcome for the program. Finding out about it in August is about as good as we could expect. Being upset they didn't inform Jones directly? That just seems very petty. They did Jones a huge favor, but I don't think they "owed" him anything.

I don't really care about this because I don't think they owed us any favors, but I think you are way off here.

I'm also sure that CCSF was not their first choice. But what is clear from their decision to go to CCSF is that BASKETBALL was their first choice. Because going to a JC was always going to be something that was available. Clearly there was never any intent to stay for the education and get their degree. If there was, having no good basketball options, they would have hung up the sneakers and grabbed the best scholarship deal they are ever going to get by staying at Cal. I think it is obvious they knew as soon as Wyking told them they would not be on the team that they were going to leave at the end of the semester. They knew Cal wanted to use the scholarships this Fall. They knew Cal couldn't use the scholarships for this Fall if they did not inform Cal of their decision. It made zero difference to them if they told Cal in the Spring or just didn't show up in August. Having no scholarship offer to take, they didn't need to make their decision known. So they didn't. I have a hard time believing that the decision not to tell us was not payback.

Your "if they were being malicious" scenarios make no sense because to do either, they would have to hurt themselves. They want to play basketball. If they stay at Cal for the degree, they can't play basketball. Not leaving until they get another scholarship offer would make no sense. Sitting at Cal isn't getting them an offer. To get an offer they need to play somewhere to demonstrate they are worth it. Hence, they need to go to a JC to play. So yes, they could have been more malicious by staying at Cal longer, but they pretty much would have ended their basketball careers by doing so.

By not telling Cal they would not be here in the Fall, they hurt Cal as much as they could without badly hurting themselves. Hurting Cal any more would have come at great cost to them. (I know you and I think a Cal degree is a great consolation prize, but if they agreed, they wouldn't be at CCSF now) C'mon man. They didn't tell us because they knew it would hurt us. As I said, I get it. We dumped them. When your significant other dumps you, you don't help her move her stuff to her new boyfriend's place. But let's not pretend that not telling us had anything to do with anything other than making sure we couldn't use the scholarships this year.

You are missing my point. This result, getting 2 scholarships well in time for the 2019 class is probably the best possible result for the program. Especially when a possibility (probably the best for the kids) was not having them back for three years. Sure, getting them for late additions to the 2018 class might have been "better" but we obviously had a slot for the grad transfer, so I don't think we missed on any major targets. Worse, Jones might have used them for two more reaches/projects which is how we got into this problem in the first place. So given that the result is so much in our favor, I find it really reprehensible that people on this board are complaining about their actions.

They didn't need to be injury retirements to keep their scholarships but they had no injuries of note for the team to claim an injury retirement to get the schollies back if they decided to remain.

Exactly. If the kids were being "malicious" they would have stayed at Cal on scholarship and gotten degrees, or at least not have left until they had another scholarship offer. We would not be able to use those scholarships during that time. I am sure that leaving for CCSF was not their first choice. I am sure they were hoping for scholarship offers at a D1 or D2 school. Leaving for CCSF and giving back the scholarships was a great outcome for the program. Finding out about it in August is about as good as we could expect. Being upset they didn't inform Jones directly? That just seems very petty. They did Jones a huge favor, but I don't think they "owed" him anything.

I don't really care about this because I don't think they owed us any favors, but I think you are way off here.

I'm also sure that CCSF was not their first choice. But what is clear from their decision to go to CCSF is that BASKETBALL was their first choice. Because going to a JC was always going to be something that was available. Clearly there was never any intent to stay for the education and get their degree. If there was, having no good basketball options, they would have hung up the sneakers and grabbed the best scholarship deal they are ever going to get by staying at Cal. I think it is obvious they knew as soon as Wyking told them they would not be on the team that they were going to leave at the end of the semester. They knew Cal wanted to use the scholarships this Fall. They knew Cal couldn't use the scholarships for this Fall if they did not inform Cal of their decision. It made zero difference to them if they told Cal in the Spring or just didn't show up in August. Having no scholarship offer to take, they didn't need to make their decision known. So they didn't. I have a hard time believing that the decision not to tell us was not payback.

Your "if they were being malicious" scenarios make no sense because to do either, they would have to hurt themselves. They want to play basketball. If they stay at Cal for the degree, they can't play basketball. Not leaving until they get another scholarship offer would make no sense. Sitting at Cal isn't getting them an offer. To get an offer they need to play somewhere to demonstrate they are worth it. Hence, they need to go to a JC to play. So yes, they could have been more malicious by staying at Cal longer, but they pretty much would have ended their basketball careers by doing so.

By not telling Cal they would not be here in the Fall, they hurt Cal as much as they could without badly hurting themselves. Hurting Cal any more would have come at great cost to them. (I know you and I think a Cal degree is a great consolation prize, but if they agreed, they wouldn't be at CCSF now) C'mon man. They didn't tell us because they knew it would hurt us. As I said, I get it. We dumped them. When your significant other dumps you, you don't help her move her stuff to her new boyfriend's place. But let's not pretend that not telling us had anything to do with anything other than making sure we couldn't use the scholarships this year.

You are missing my point. This result, getting 2 scholarships well in time for the 2019 class is probably the best possible result for the program. Especially when a possibility (probably the best for the kids) was not having them back for three years. Sure, getting them for late additions to the 2018 class might have been "better" but we obviously had a slot for the grad transfer, so I don't think we missed on any major targets. Worse, Jones might have used them for two more reaches/projects which is how we got into this problem in the first place. So given that the result is so much in our favor, I find it really reprehensible that people on this board are complaining about their actions.

Timing is everything!

By the way: It is hard for me to imagine a better scenario for Winston and McCullough than SFCC (except that it would have been far better for all concerned if they'd make the switch a lot earlier).

People on this Board (not me) who criticize WJ & the rest of the staff would never do other than wildly praise SFCC's coach (who, by the way, has the record to justify such praise).

So, I have no reason to assume other than these two guys are going to get the best shot possible, not only in possible playing time, but especially in coaching them up to whatever their potential might be (and I'm not one to jump on the "they're just not good enough" bandwagon - ask Harris-Dyson about Winston, who torched him for 42 in a H.S. Playoff game -- I know almost nothing about McCullough, so my mind is virtually totally open about him).

I remain angry at them for doing the dirty to our program; but my religion forbids me from wishing them ill.

They needed a parent to sit them down and help them see the light. It's a shame they left Cal, IMO. There's no substitute for the experience or education. It seems like an incredible waste to throw that away for a year of JC hoops.

They are trying to continue playing basketball while going to college. Staying at Cal didn't allow them that opportunity. No reason to believe their parents didn't support that decision.

That's obviously true, since they are at the JC. That's not my point. The point is the parents should not have supported such a foolish decision.

Dear tequila: I'm sure the lads discussed all the variables with their parents. Respect their decision. They want to play basketball and they obviously do not share your opinion concerning their future. People make foolish choices all their lives. If this is a foolish decision, it will not be their last.

They needed a parent to sit them down and help them see the light. It's a shame they left Cal, IMO. There's no substitute for the experience or education. It seems like an incredible waste to throw that away for a year of JC hoops.

They are trying to continue playing basketball while going to college. Staying at Cal didn't allow them that opportunity. No reason to believe their parents didn't support that decision.

That's obviously true, since they are at the JC. That's not my point. The point is the parents should not have supported such a foolish decision.

Agreed. Basketball got them a full ride at a great university. They clearly are not going to have professional careers. By far the smartest thing would have been to just focus on academics and be the king of the intermural and pick-up games. The time they would have devoted to being bench warmers they could have put into class work and more rigorous degree programs. Certainly that is what I would have advised them if they were my kid.

However, this result is FAR better for Cal basketball, so I am grateful for that. I don't know who people think we could have brought in late for this season that we needed more scholarships for, but we have them with plenty of time for the 2019 class, so again, why be upset at them?

They needed a parent to sit them down and help them see the light. It's a shame they left Cal, IMO. There's no substitute for the experience or education. It seems like an incredible waste to throw that away for a year of JC hoops.

They are trying to continue playing basketball while going to college. Staying at Cal didn't allow them that opportunity. No reason to believe their parents didn't support that decision.

That's obviously true, since they are at the JC. That's not my point. The point is the parents should not have supported such a foolish decision.

Agreed. Basketball got them a full ride at a great university. They clearly are not going to have professional careers. By far the smartest thing would have been to just focus on academics and be the king of the intermural and pick-up games. The time they would have devoted to being bench warmers they could have put into class work and more rigorous degree programs. Certainly that is what I would have advised them if they were my kid.

However, this result is FAR better for Cal basketball, so I am grateful for that. I don't know who people think we could have brought in late for this season that we needed more scholarships for, but we have them with plenty of time for the 2019 class, so again, why be upset at them?

I'm not 100% sure it's a "wrong" decision. When Shocky was here (remember him?) he used to insist that anyone who didn't go to Cal, Stanford or an Ivy was destined to a life of flipping burgers (until his daughter went to ASU). That's not true. These 2 may very well have made the correct decision FOR THEM. Not the decision I would make or my sons would have, but they're not us.

They needed a parent to sit them down and help them see the light. It's a shame they left Cal, IMO. There's no substitute for the experience or education. It seems like an incredible waste to throw that away for a year of JC hoops.

They are trying to continue playing basketball while going to college. Staying at Cal didn't allow them that opportunity. No reason to believe their parents didn't support that decision.

That's obviously true, since they are at the JC. That's not my point. The point is the parents should not have supported such a foolish decision.

Agreed. Basketball got them a full ride at a great university. They clearly are not going to have professional careers. By far the smartest thing would have been to just focus on academics and be the king of the intermural and pick-up games. The time they would have devoted to being bench warmers they could have put into class work and more rigorous degree programs. Certainly that is what I would have advised them if they were my kid.

However, this result is FAR better for Cal basketball, so I am grateful for that. I don't know who people think we could have brought in late for this season that we needed more scholarships for, but we have them with plenty of time for the 2019 class, so again, why be upset at them?

I'm not 100% sure it's a "wrong" decision. When Shocky was here (remember him?) he used to insist that anyone who didn't go to Cal, Stanford or an Ivy was destined to a life of flipping burgers (until his daughter went to ASU). That's not true. These 2 may very well have made the correct decision FOR THEM. Not the decision I would make or my sons would have, but they're not us.

Agree that "best" for them is subjective, though I am certain that this choice is worse for them from a strictly rational financial/cost-benefit standpoint. They just gave up free tuition, room and board and stipend for Cal all without having to even play basketball in return. They now will pay fees, room and board and living expenses at CCSF in HOPES of getting a scholarship offer at a school that will likely not be the caliber of Cal.

However, while "best" for them may be somewhat debateable, it is clearly close to the best possible result for Cal. They did not "do US dirty," we should be grateful and contrite, only wishing them well.

Agree to disagree. Without knowing the intimate details of these kids lives I still think it's about a 99.999% probability it's a huge mistake. Free education at the worlds best public school > JC hoops with nominal prospects for even getting another D1 offer. Forfeiting short term pleasure for long term benefit isn't always fun but it's sometimes the way to go. Barring some unknown unusual circumstance this was obviously one of those times.

Yes, it's better for the program. But I guess I'm a bit old fashioned in that I kind of care(d) about these kids too.

I think it was an emotional decision rather than a rational decision, but it is good for us and I wish them well.

Honestly, in Winston's case, I believe he can provide depth @ PG by his junior/senior year. I don't think that McCullough is a D1 player. My thoughts are that Winston's father (the trainer) has had some impact on this decision for his son and by extension McCullough. I believe its a mistake that McCullough didn't take his other offer, So the emotional part plays a decision as you say in that he would have gone elsewhere leaving Winston to try to play his way into a D1 spot.... my thinking is that he felt he should stay with Winston (and his dad) for as long as he could....

I think it was an emotional decision rather than a rational decision, but it is good for us and I wish them well.

Honestly, in Winston's case, I believe he can provide depth @ PG by his junior/senior year. I don't think that McCullough is a D1 player. My thoughts are that Winston's father (the trainer) has had some impact on this decision for his son and by extension McCullough. I believe its a mistake that McCullough didn't take his other offer, So the emotional part plays a decision as you say in that he would have gone elsewhere leaving Winston to try to play his way into a D1 spot.... my thinking is that he felt he should stay with Winston (and his dad) for as long as he could....

But hell, I could be way off the mark as well.....

Staying at Cal as a student with a full-ride is objectively a great option, but emotionally, would be very difficult. I get that. Enjoying college is one of the major reasons for being there, not just preparing for a future career.

If you know you are not going to eventually play professionally, but REALLY want to play college basketball, DII is a good option.

I think it was an emotional decision rather than a rational decision, but it is good for us and I wish them well.

Honestly, in Winston's case, I believe he can provide depth @ PG by his junior/senior year. I don't think that McCullough is a D1 player. My thoughts are that Winston's father (the trainer) has had some impact on this decision for his son and by extension McCullough. I believe its a mistake that McCullough didn't take his other offer, So the emotional part plays a decision as you say in that he would have gone elsewhere leaving Winston to try to play his way into a D1 spot.... my thinking is that he felt he should stay with Winston (and his dad) for as long as he could....

But hell, I could be way off the mark as well.....

Staying at Cal as a student with a full-ride is objectively a great option, but emotionally, would be very difficult. I get that. Enjoying college is one of the major reasons for being there, not just preparing for a future career.

If you know you are not going to eventually play professionally, but REALLY want to play college basketball, DII is a good option.

Agreed and regarding the bolded section, that is where the father/trainer comes in. My feeling is that he is pushing/guiding him towards D1 and McCullough is along for the ride....

Agree to disagree. Without knowing the intimate details of these kids lives I still think it's about a 99.999% probability it's a huge mistake. Free education at the worlds best public school > JC hoops with nominal prospects for even getting another D1 offer. Forfeiting short term pleasure for long term benefit isn't always fun but it's sometimes the way to go. Barring some unknown unusual circumstance this was obviously one of those times.

Yes, it's better for the program. But I guess I'm a bit old fashioned in that I kind of care(d) about these kids too.

"Caring about the kids" means factoring the emotional difficulty of staying at Cal. Their closest friends (by default) are from the basketball team, but now that's awkward. They no doubt feel screwed over and hurt by what happened at Cal, and yet, there is some expectation they are supposed to walk around campus like all they did was change majors? There are other places of education, and hopefully they can take advantage of scholarship opportunities. But wanting a change shouldn't be shocking here at all. Yep, some of you might think you would tough it out, and that's fine, but let's not minimize what happened and how that might be affecting a young adult.

Agree to disagree. Without knowing the intimate details of these kids lives I still think it's about a 99.999% probability it's a huge mistake. Free education at the worlds best public school > JC hoops with nominal prospects for even getting another D1 offer. Forfeiting short term pleasure for long term benefit isn't always fun but it's sometimes the way to go. Barring some unknown unusual circumstance this was obviously one of those times.

Yes, it's better for the program. But I guess I'm a bit old fashioned in that I kind of care(d) about these kids too.

"Caring about the kids" means factoring the emotional difficulty of staying at Cal. Their closest friends (by default) are from the basketball team, but now that's awkward. They no doubt feel screwed over and hurt by what happened at Cal, and yet, there is some expectation they are supposed to walk around campus like all they did was change majors? There are other places of education, and hopefully they can take advantage of scholarship opportunities. But wanting a change shouldn't be shocking here at all. Yep, some of you might think you would tough it out, and that's fine, but let's not minimize what happened and how that might be affecting a young adult.

To those of you disagreeing with me and my take on the situation, we can agree to disagree.

I would not recruit players only to encourage them to transfer several months later because I failed in evaluating their talent or thereafter coaching them to be the best players they could be. Far as I know, they were in good academic standing and involved in no off campus issues (thus, not smearable).

To me and my understanding, it's a disgrace to call yourself a coach a mentor of young men after this jettisoning.

To those of you disagreeing with me and my take on the situation, we can agree to disagree.

I would not recruit players only to encourage them to transfer several months later because I failed in evaluating their talent or thereafter coaching them to be the best players they could be. Far as I know, they were in good academic standing and involved in no off campus issues (thus, not smearable).

To me and my understanding, it's a disgrace to call yourself a coach a mentor of young men after this jettisoning.

Well, I think what needs to happen - and likely won't - is that this topic needs to stop being discussed. The stating of one's position over and over keeps the discussion alive. Why? We all know where you stand and likely you could tell many of us who've posted on this topic where we stand. Agreeing to disagree is a fair way to close things out but only if we all end the tit for tat posting of positions. Because nobody is changing your mind and likely anyone else...

To those of you disagreeing with me and my take on the situation, we can agree to disagree.

I would not recruit players only to encourage them to transfer several months later because I failed in evaluating their talent or thereafter coaching them to be the best players they could be. Far as I know, they were in good academic standing and involved in no off campus issues (thus, not smearable).

To me and my understanding, it's a disgrace to call yourself a coach a mentor of young men after this jettisoning.

With that in mind, I should quit my job. I've hired way to many people that didn't pan out. It's a disgrace to call myself a mentor or good manager or whatever... SARCASM.

My point is you are being harsh. I'm hoping you are one of the few who accept a team to be bottom or middle of Pac-12. It's incredibly difficult to keep the morale high ground and win. It's like playing monopoly but starting with one $500 bill instead of two and having one or two players stealing from the bank.

1. The players weren't stealing anything, not sure what your analogy was. And if we only started with $500, then whose fault was that?2. "Hard to win AND keep morale high ground....???" so, you believe in cheating or bending rules to win? Something like that?