Is there an easy way to take into account being a human? I'm currently using Ook's, but I got an LFR Elegion that i could use. I'm pretty sure it is worse due to the 1% expertise I lose swapping from a Sword/Mace to an Axe. I believe that 1% Expertise is worth 340 Expertise Rating.

Edit: Never mind, answered my own question. If you click the score and get it to show the larger numbers you can use the stat weight of Expertise=1.9. Multiply by 340 and you get that Ook's is indeed better than LFR Elegion.

There has been some confusion about the recent changes to Vengeance that we’d like to clear up. Two things have changed with Vengeance lately:

Oct 8 - Vengeance should now ramp up more quickly. Avoidance will now grant Vengeance based on the average damage of the avoided NPC auto-attack, instead of just refreshing existing Vengeance. This does not apply to enemy special attacks.

There should be an addition to this: Vengeance was also reduced by 10% at the time that hotfix was noted. We apologize for that being missed in the patch notes. Vengeance now accrues at a rate of 1.8% of damage taken, down from 2.0%.

Oct 16 - Fixed an issue with the way that Vengeance is calculated that could cause very large but infrequent spikes of damage to grant much more than the intended amount of Vengeance.

Based on the hits a tank takes, Vengeance attempts to predict what 50% of average Vengeance for that level of incoming damage will be, and bumps the tank straight to that level. However, it previously based that calculation on a 1.5 second attack speed. It now bases the calculation on the enemy’s auto attack speed for auto attacks, and a 60 second interval for special attacks.

Tanks will still get the expected amount of Vengeance from the damage taken. This change just means that the first hit from a slow-attacking boss will bump Vengeance straight up to the expected amount.

Wouldn't we gain more damage at a very low HPG cost prioritizing AS+ above CS and judgement with the recent buff?

"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

The buff for AS+ should allow you to fit it into an X slot without pushing back CS and J, which ultimately gives you more HoPo (if I'm not mistaken.) Not sure what the % chance of getting a second proc before using up the first is, but I'd imagine it's low enough to not warrant AS+>CS>J>AS.

aresius wrote:Due to the recent confirmation on the importance of hit/expertise, maybe its advisable to swap around some of the recomended gemming? I personaly see the Guardian Amethyst (exp/stam) as a much better gem then the Defender (parry/stam).

theckhd wrote:There is no "recommended gemming."

I'm assuming that was a reference to the below gems and enchants, which are what has been used in the default gear set, not what is the recommended set.

Klaudandus wrote:What I've been wondering is if they swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction when they said they wanted us to care more about hit/exp than we had in the past.

Since it seems like warriors and paladins will not be using most of the traditional tank loot (Dodge/Parry/Mastery combos), and will probably prefer to roll on a subset of traditional DPS loot (haste/mastery/hit/expertise combos), I think the answer is "yes". I suppose this has really just put us to where DKs were in Cata.

Klaudandus wrote:What I've been wondering is if they swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction when they said they wanted us to care more about hit/exp than we had in the past.

Since it seems like warriors and paladins will not be using most of the traditional tank loot (Dodge/Parry/Mastery combos), and will probably prefer to roll on a subset of traditional DPS loot (haste/mastery/hit/expertise combos), I think the answer is "yes". I suppose this has really just put us to where DKs were in Cata.

I don't know -- I heard that warriors still favor parry a lot in order to increase their procs. We have nothing of that sort.

Also, hadn't they made it that DK's would not be that badly punished if their Death Strike fails to hit? -- I mean at least that was the case in 4.3, not sure if that got removed for 5.0.x

Klaudandus wrote:What I've been wondering is if they swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction when they said they wanted us to care more about hit/exp than we had in the past.

Since it seems like warriors and paladins will not be using most of the traditional tank loot (Dodge/Parry/Mastery combos), and will probably prefer to roll on a subset of traditional DPS loot (haste/mastery/hit/expertise combos), I think the answer is "yes". I suppose this has really just put us to where DKs were in Cata.

I don't know -- I heard that warriors still favor parry a lot in order to increase their procs. We have nothing of that sort.

Also, hadn't they made it that DK's would not be that badly punished if their Death Strike fails to hit? -- I mean at least that was the case in 4.3, not sure if that got removed for 5.0.x

Not sure about DKs, and I may well be mistaken about warriors - just checked EJ and they seem to be saying hard cap expertise and hit, then mastery > parry > dodge (stamina's in there too, but not as cleanly) but nothing on haste.

well, haste is not that good for warriors once they reach the 7.5% haste mark. we at least continue to scale past that. on the other hand, like i said, at least parry is good for them if only for procs.

These days I'm starting to think that Blizz should just scrap avoidance ratings on gear entirely. 3/5 tanks right now don't need it, and I'm not sure about the state of the other two (DK&War). They've shown they can make dps stats work for tanks in a pretty straightforward fashion - they could extend that idea further, for example by tying Critical Block to Critical Strike chance (though that's a big change that'd require reworking Warrior Mastery). Scrap the ratings on gear, and bake them in from other sources (like the existing Str->Parry).

KysenMurrin wrote:These days I'm starting to think that Blizz should just scrap avoidance ratings on gear entirely. 3/5 tanks right now don't need it, and I'm not sure about the state of the other two (DK&War). They've shown they can make dps stats work for tanks in a pretty straightforward fashion - they could extend that idea further, for example by tying Critical Block to Critical Strike chance (though that's a big change that'd require reworking Warrior Mastery). Scrap the ratings on gear, and bake them in from other sources (like the existing Str->Parry).

THIS.

I was just thinking the same just a few minutes ago.

EDIT: Although I just up with a completely different idea -- why not just give a certain amount of passive hit and exp against NPCs as part of our spec -- it would make it much easier to reach the hit and exp cap, allowing us to favor mastery/haste much faster -- at least it soften the blows of getting a piece that has dodge/parry as its secondary stats

KysenMurrin wrote:These days I'm starting to think that Blizz should just scrap avoidance ratings on gear entirely. 3/5 tanks right now don't need it, and I'm not sure about the state of the other two (DK&War). They've shown they can make dps stats work for tanks in a pretty straightforward fashion - they could extend that idea further, for example by tying Critical Block to Critical Strike chance (though that's a big change that'd require reworking Warrior Mastery). Scrap the ratings on gear, and bake them in from other sources (like the existing Str->Parry).

THIS.

I was just thinking the same just a few minutes ago.

EDIT: Although I just up with a completely different idea -- why not just give a certain amount of passive hit and exp against NPCs as part of our spec -- it would make it much easier to reach the hit and exp cap, allowing us to favor mastery/haste much faster -- at least it soften the blows of getting a piece that has dodge/parry as its secondary stats

ya'll are going about this all wrong.

What we need is a buff. What it will do is calculate the chance a boss will have to have a weaker attack, or completely miss us. It will scale with your equipped ilvl, rated to include how awesome your x-mog set is. Unless you're a belf then it will use your hair-awesomness index.

We can call it 'Radicalness'. What could possibly go wrong?

/removes dev-hat.

Seriously though - those ideas are pretty interesting ones (Klaud and Kysen's). Certainly could lead to some interesting opportunities design-wise. Imagine a world where your tank gear could be viable DPS gear minus maybe a weapon or shield with a spec change. Well, and you weren't a bear

The thing is, we're already favoring dps gear for our set ups. A hit/exp piece of gear is many times better than a dodge/parry. Even if you're about to hit the hit/exp caps, you can reforge into haste/mastery -- whereas even if you reforge out of dodge or parry, you still have another stat sucking balls in your dodge/parry piece of gear.

Conversely, they could create a single stat called avoidance to be put on gear, for plate wearers, and it would split half and half into dodge and parry on the defense tables. That way you at least avoid the now dreaded dodge/parry combination

Don't like it as much as the idea of getting passive hit/exp from our spec, but c'est la vie~

Klaudandus wrote:Conversely, they could create a single stat called avoidance to be put on gear, for plate wearers, and it would split half and half into dodge and parry on the defense tables. That way you at least avoid the now dreaded dodge/parry combination

Or make Dodge the only avoidance rating, with Parry being a side-effect of Strength for plate-wearers.

Klaudandus wrote:I'm ok with that -- though like I said, I'd prefer passive hit/exp against NPCs to compensate for how valuable hit/exp are...

I actually think that if this AM thing survives the grand experiment, this approach will be good, preferably in combination with making vengence less dumb, something like a passive for tank specs only that gives X% hit, Y% expertise and Z% of your stamina (or whatever) as attack power against NPCs.

I hope this is the right thread for my question and if not I am sorry It's about our L75-Talents, here you wrote basically Sanctified Wrath and Holy Avenger are roguhly on a same level dps- and HoPo-wise, but I was wondering if these two talents can be compared simply by looking at their dps and HoPo gain, as they lead to completly different rotations and different generation of HoPo. HA gives us a great CD for bosses like Will, where we can use it in a titan gas phase and in tank change fights (like Gar'jal) its defensive aspect should be roguhly double as good as in fights like the Ghostkings, but SW should have a far better smoothing effect as we have steady increase of our generated HoPo. A J-CS-J-X rotation would give us over 50% uptime of SotR without spikes of 18+ sec and larger gaps outside our HA-phase.Easier said:SW should give us a SotR every 6 sec (ignoring AS proccs)HA gives less SotR outside the CD-phase but a long buff when used.

This would let me personally think that SA might be far better in some encounters if we try to smooth our DTPS.

Another point which I came up with, while overthinking this, is SW should have large impact on our SS uptime as we only have one filler every 6 sec.I don't know if you have already tested this, but i would be very delighted if you could help me with this

Every encounter is different and it being so easy to change glyphs/talents just take the one better for the fight and your playstyle. I personally almost always use DP because it is random but it still has the highest uptime for the sotr buff. But like you even said on the start of the post for Will HA is great, its what i use actually, and for the other fights it just depends on what works better, there are advantages to SW/HA but the fight and your playstyle may favor one or the other and just use that. I actually completely change my talents and glyphs for Will of the Emperor every other fight i use a DP build. There will never be a "best" glyph choice an example for myself I rarely take sacred shield other than will, because I take selfless healer and raid heal even though sacred shield is really nice, I just find it didn't change my survivability i lived and healers had the same mana issues whether i took it or not, but now when someone dips in the raid i can insta flash of light them for 200k+.

Klaudandus wrote:well, haste is not that good for warriors once they reach the 7.5% haste mark. we at least continue to scale past that. on the other hand, like i said, at least parry is good for them if only for procs.

How good are these values exactly? When I try to apply them to other pieces of gear it often gives me intelect items and I assume we shouldn't be using those.

If you don't want intellect items, add another filter with "Intellect=0" in it.

Ergil wrote:you wrote basically Sanctified Wrath and Holy Avenger are roguhly on a same level dps- and HoPo-wise, but I was wondering if these two talents can be compared simply by looking at their dps and HoPo gain, as they lead to completly different rotations and different generation of HoPo. HA gives us a great CD for bosses like Will, where we can use it in a titan gas phase and in tank change fights (like Gar'jal) its defensive aspect should be roguhly double as good as in fights like the Ghostkings, but SW should have a far better smoothing effect as we have steady increase of our generated HoPo. A J-CS-J-X rotation would give us over 50% uptime of SotR without spikes of 18+ sec and larger gaps outside our HA-phase.Easier said:SW should give us a SotR every 6 sec (ignoring AS proccs)HA gives less SotR outside the CD-phase but a long buff when used.

This would let me personally think that SA might be far better in some encounters if we try to smooth our DTPS.

I'm not sure how you're concluding that SW gives us more smoothing. HA gives you 100% uptime on SotR for 20 seconds every 2 minutes. SW gives you 50% uptime on SotR for 30 seconds every 3 minutes. So you'll get the same amount of uptime of each buff in any fight that's a multiple of 6 minutes, and in general you'll get more HA uptime than SW uptime the rest of the time.

Furthermore, your damage intake will be much smoother with 100% uptime on SotR than with 50%. So during the effects, HA is obviously the smoothness winner. Since you don't get any extra uptime out of SW, I'm not sure how you're concluding that SW is giving you more smoothness. Are you confusing SW with DP?

Ergil wrote:Another point which I came up with, while overthinking this, is SW should have large impact on our SS uptime as we only have one filler every 6 sec.

I don't know if I'd call it a large impact. You won't have a free GCD during SW with which to refresh Sacred Shield unless you give up your filler slot, but if you're concerned with survivability you can always do that (i.e. J-CS-J-SS). Further, if you refresh SS right before you go into SW, and refresh it again after SW, you're only looking at ~10 seconds of downtime.

Egtheridon wrote:Every encounter is different and it being so easy to change glyphs/talents just take the one better for the fight and your playstyle. I personally almost always use DP because it is random but it still has the highest uptime for the sotr buff. But like you even said on the start of the post for Will HA is great, its what i use actually, and for the other fights it just depends on what works better, there are advantages to SW/HA but the fight and your playstyle may favor one or the other and just use that. I actually completely change my talents and glyphs for Will of the Emperor every other fight i use a DP build. There will never be a "best" glyph choice an example for myself I rarely take sacred shield other than will, because I take selfless healer and raid heal even though sacred shield is really nice, I just find it didn't change my survivability i lived and healers had the same mana issues whether i took it or not, but now when someone dips in the raid i can insta flash of light them for 200k+.

I'm not sure I'd recommend DP for any of the fights in Mogu'shan vaults. And I'd definitely not recommend Selfless Healer. Yeah, you can FoL your friends for 200k every so often. But your healers could've done it if they didn't have to heal through the extra 400k+ damage you took by not keeping Sacred Shield up.