Yep I own my own shit as Karen says. Divorced with two boys 7 and 9 and worked like a dog to support myself and both of them with 0 child support for many years because he would work under the table. etc etc. Finally got 120$ a month child support for both back in the day. They're now 30 and 32 and incapable of having a long term relationship. One is a Don Juan type and the other would have liked but got screwed over emotionally so often that he's extremely angry at women in general. He's a fan of Karen and the anti-feminist movement. It will be a miracle if I get to be a grandmother some day. I'm not a feminist or non feminist. I just do.

I feel for this generation because they have so many options that they don't or won't commit to anything anymore like tree magnet said. And it's true that women have this inbred biological need to want to hook up with someone that makes more but we got to get over that because that's not reality anymore.

I 'm in a long term relationship with a very intelligent man that lost his job in the avionics industry and he can't find a job in his field anymore and now he just does odd jobs here and there and I'm the main bread winner. I'm a little angry about that sometimes ....like I didn't sign up for that but am I going to shame and humiliate him for that? He feels enough of that with out my help thank you.

Life can be tough, and we do the best we can do for our children, and in our relationships. I think a lot of us have grown to realize that the fairy tale "happily forever after" we expected when we were children isn't necessarily the reality we've ended up with. It is easy to be bitter, but then we get stuck living in that emotional context. Better to make the best of what we've got, and be grateful for those things that are good in our lives. I know that sounds Polyanna-ish (I know,I'm dating myself). But I've had to put that to the test through a variety of hard, real-world circumstances, and reframing things in as positive a light as you can really does make a difference.

My grandmother may be smiling down at us now. She was a feminist and she - unlike Christy0Misty - lived during a time when women didn't have the rights that the vitriolic Christy seems to either take for granted or, in many cases, explicitly oppose.

It might be helpful for you, or Christy, to walk a few paces in Oma's shoes, in Hell's Kitchen, before World War II, to better understand what it was like for women then.

For anyone who doesn't understand what I'm talking about, a good place to start would be to look at the difference in number of rapes and other types of violence against women that are prosecuted in societies with more women's rights, and the converse. Being a woman in Saudi Arabia or India - where women's rights are much less established - is very different than being a woman in Australia or the US. Wanting to have legal recourse for a violation of one's body hardly seems like an extreme or unreasonable position.

Of course, like any movement, there are some unfortunate side effects and extreme elements, but that's no reason disparage the whole sea change brought about by feminism.

I salute you, Oma.

I long to hear that you have declared an independancy—and by the way in the new Code of Laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make I desire you would Remember the Ladies, and be more generous and favourable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the Husbands. Remember all Men would be tyrants if they could. If perticuliar care and attention is not paid to the Laidies we are determined to foment a Rebelion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any Laws in which we have no voice, or Representation.

P.S. As a Dutch speaker, Oma served in the OSS in World War II, funneling Allied money to the Dutch resistance against the Nazis. This was partly because she thought that women could and should contribute in order to secure their freedom, just as the men were doing.

Nice picture, T2H. Now, do you care to actually set up a logical progression of ideas in a post? Pictures are fine, but let's see some sentences too; maybe even paragraphs.

Would you like to tell us which part of Christy0Misty's commentary you found so enlightening? There's a lot there to choose from. Did you like it all or just some of it? I certainly found some choice bits.

More importantly, how is it that you don't see a connection between women's rights and better legal protection for women in cases of rape and domestic violence? If you take the time to actually study the historical record, you will see that these are closely connected. How is mentioning this a red herring?

"Whose fault is it that you have no food, child?" "Why yours, of cause." "Because you see, you and I are equals, and if you cannot be bothered to feed yourself, what concern is that of mine?"

My grandmother taught herself how to read and write while tending to her other 12 younger siblings. Why? Because those were the cards she was given to play.

Your assumption is that the future will enable us to entertain these deceits and follies and also survive. We won't. The nuclear family offers the best hope for survival. Feminism is implacably opposed to it. But I see through their subterfuge to weaken the gullible and strengthen their own childrens' hold on the resources of the environment.

EDIT: Persig demonstrated that Rhetoric is as valid as Aristotle's forms. Rhetoric addresses Quality. I wear the badge of Rhetorician with pride. This dichotomy is further illuminated by McGillchrist.

Men and women are different. Quit pretending otherwise. Men are better at some things, women are better at others. I'd say equal in spirit, but very different otherwise. In my book, men tend to be better at defending. Nature designed us for it. Women are typically better nurturers, again, thank nature. There are always exceptions. I like a woman that looks and acts feminine (personal preference). Why? Because I think it’s beautiful. Ever see a beautiful woman wearing a dress in the park in spring? Does this make me a dinosaur? I don’t give a rats.

With respect to voting, absolutely, women should vote. I’d question the logic in doing so given the current two party bulls&#t system brought to you by Diebold™, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Hell, everybody vote (I’m going to be sporting my Clinton/Bush 2016 bumper sticker here pretty soon, woo-hoo).

I have a big issue with a society that frowns on a woman’s right to stay at home and raise her own kids (this includes homeschooling). Frankly I have even more of an issue with a bulls&#t central bank that debases the currency such that two incomes become necessary to provide for said kids, practically forcing women out into the workforce just to make ends meet and thus leaving the aforementioned kids in an education system that oddly resembles the prison system (not to mention that the Earth gets used up to support the never ending growth required to support said bulls&#t central bank).

Her viewpoint on the Middle East I found a bit off the map, been there done that and I can’t imagine what it would be like to be a woman under some of those regimes. Frankly being there as a man sucked. So she’s quirky. That’s her right. She’s also cute. That helps balance some of the quirkiness in my book.

With respect to your herring - as far as rape and domestic violence goes, it’s my strong belief that women should think about stepping away from the potential victim mindset and consider arming themselves and getting some training. A rapist/stalker/DV'er tends to lose motivation fast with a few slugs in the gut. The cute lady with a 38 special, meh, make it a 45 auto - that really doesn’t go along with the agenda, now does it Hugh?

AAdams wrote:

"Remember all Men would be tyrants if they could."

No. Just screwed up sociopathic ones. Bankers come to mind for some reason.

The claim that most feminists oppose the nuclear family is just wrong, making it a straw man argument.

Cases in point:

Oma - wife a nuclear family; was never the primary bread winner

Grandma- wife of a nuclear family; never remarried after grandpa died when they were in their mid-40's

Mom - wife in a nuclear family; makes more than Dad but they both have good jobs; they've been married since 1970

Sister - wife in a nuclear family; quit a job as a high powered lawyer to raise my nephew and niece and, eight years later, isn't planning on working again any time soon.

All are feminists, meaning they support a woman's right to vote, think that a man does not have a right to beat his wife or girlfriend, or sexually abuse his daughter, support treating women with respect in the workplace and not discriminate when it comes to hiring women, and think that both men and women have a lot to contribute in the workforce as well as in the home.

My sample size is small, of course, but I think all of us know dozens if not hundreds of women who believe in women's rights and are wives and mothers in nuclear families.

True feminits are totally against free speech and pull stunts like setting off the fire alarms at anti-feminism lectures.

True feminists say things like "All sex is rape, all men are rapists. Men are not needed and the sooner we get rid of them, the sooner the world will be all bliss and harmony. "

In other words you are a rapist, and must be exterminated.

If you think I exaggerate you have not been hanging out in the right crowd. This is a very real problem for fatherless boys and for girls who will looking for real men to marry and support them while they breed.

There is an upwelling of Mens' support groups. And why? Because there is a need. When I was growing up there were no such men's movements, where everyone gets to sit around in a circle and tries to make sense of their world. I have been to one, and it is all quite pathetic.

From the description of your happy and well balanced family may I suggest that you need more exposure to the rough end of town.

My own experience with feminism is that it has denigrated my sons and given my daughter permission to ride the [nope] carousel until she is now at a stage where she can no longer have any children and is washed up at 40, a chain smoking thin rake, well on her way to becoming a bag lady. Why? Because the feminist ideal gave her permission. She could have it all. Now she has nothing.

Oh yes. I WAS an ardent feminist.

Your cause is lost. Talk to the hand.

[Moderator message: I believe this thread had just been talking about straw man arguments. One form of strawman argument is to caricature all *true* [pick a name] as having totally extreme and absurd positions. "E.g., all *true* Republicans eat worms." Not only is it transparently wrong, but also insulting to intelligent people who might call themselves feminists, etc. Not appropriate here.]

I don't know who your mad at, but you can't take it out on everyone who thinks that gender equity is a good idea. You cannot condemn all feminists for the actions of a few any more then you can condemn all Christians because a small group of obnoxious homophobes picketed some military funerals.

the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

From the Urban Dictionary:

The belief that women are and should be treated as potential intellectual equals and social equals to men.

From Cambridge:

the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power, and opportunities as men and be treated in the same way

From Wikipedia:

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

From Dictionary.com:

A movement for granting women political, social, and economic equality with men.

From The Free Dictionary:

Belief in or advocacy of women's social, political, and economic rights, especially with regard to equality of the sexes.

From Collins:

a doctrine or movement that advocates equal rights for women

From the Oxford Dictionary:

The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

When some big election rolls around the politicians start talking about women's reproductive rights. This creates emotional responses in the masses. It's a great diversion from subjects like the economy, the environment, employment and energy.

As a parent I would say our highest calling is to love our children unconditionally. If we teach and practice love and respect feminism wouldn't even be a word. You know in many of the indigenous cultures in Alaska there is no word for rape. Really that fact alone should speak volumes. That changed with the introduction of alcohol and the white man and I would add profit. Perhaps our society is deteriorating because we have so little true meaning in it. I think I must have been napping when faith and God, kindness and respect fell out of favor. Now days violence, disrespect and immortality are the in thing. Following the 10 commandments is still a great way to live in my opinion.

I don't know who your mad at, but you can't take it out on everyone who thinks that gender equity is a good idea. You cannot condemn all feminists for the actions of a few any more then you can condemn all Christians because a small group of obnoxious homophobes picketed some military funerals.

The reason I started it was not to inflame emotions, but to point out that the complete family has been our cornerstone of survival. Other animals have other strategies.

In easy times, such as the retreat of a glaciation, or the discovery of cheap energy, we breed young and fast. In this environment we can have our little deceits and rationalizations. To wit, feminism and equality.

These are tactics used by other people to undermine your own children's access to resources. Of cause their rational is given the patina of "really, truly caring". But do not be fooled. They and their useful idiots are not on your side. They are in it it win it.

In adverse conditions we have to spend more resources to bring up one off spring, and need clarity of thought.