DarkPascual:HeartBurnKid: DarkPascual: /Agree that Bruce Wayne should retire as Batman and let Dick Grayson take the mantle...

He did for a while; there was that whole plot with the time traveling bullet, but even after Bruce returned from that, Dick stayed as Batman with Bruce as his benefactor (along with the benefactor of a whole lot of other vigilantes; hence, "Batman Inc." Then the New 52 don't-call-it-a-reboot happened.

Oh, I knew that. I actually thought that "Batman Inc," had some awesome potential and I was under the impression that the "New 52" would carry that storyline...

Say what you will about how Japanese media manages their concepts on manga, but at least I think that since their works are more creator-owned rather than corporate properties, it allows a better sense of growth and progression of the story and characters.

I love American comics to death, and I love the superhero genre, but let the things change.

"Would you like Spiderman to grow old and die?" Yeah... actually that would be interesting...

Batman Inc is still ongoing, and even better than it was before the break for the Reboot.

killdawabbitt:I wish there were a mandatory retirement age for comic book characters. They've basically ruined Spider-Man from my memories of the 70's and 80's. It's like that crappy "ER" show- no doctors could leave the show without getting murdered or getting brain cancer. Why?

You know, I always laugh at posts like this because the very people who say "Damn, I wish 'X' would retire/die" will either biatch about the new person playing the same character (i.e. Dick becoming Batman, et. al.) or let us know what a great movie "Skyfall" was. I OTOH take it in stride: if I don't like it, I don't buy it.

Also: This is why the Utlimate Universe has never appealed to me. There will come a point in the Utlimate Universe where the writers will get stuck and have to end the UU; Marvel (seeing as there's too much money being made in UU comics, whatever that amount is) can't end it and will tell the writers to figure out another way to NOT end it so they can keep making money off of it.

skepticultist:This is some pretty weaksauce nonsense from Marvel. I don't mind the storyline, hell that's why you read comics, for the ridiculous storylines, but I hate it when they practically decorate the trapdoor that let's them bail from the story with neon lights.

It's entertainment, that's why I enjoy the hell out of it. When something gets ridiculous (i.e. Civil War), I drop it altogether and wait till it gets interesting again.

RoyFokker'sGhost:Guys, if you're tired of these shiatty storylines, don't go nerd rage and 'I KEEL YOU!!!!' on the forums. Do what the rest of us have already done.

Stop buying the comics.

Seriously, it's as easy as that. You don't want crappy stories, don't buy the books with them. The 'But...but...the collection...' argument is invalid these days since publishers cancel runs and restart books all the time. Vote with your money, not your mouth. Hysterics like this just get, rightfully, written off as impotent nerd rage.

Yep. Vote with your dollar.

Marvel Comics (and DC as well) seems to be run by people that have a "screw the fan" mindset, ironically in hopes of getting new readers. They generate car wrecks hoping to turn a head or two, rather than encouraging continued readers. Sales boost for a little while, but it doesn't last, so another wreck is orchestrated. It's the difference between getting noticed for running a game winning touchdown play, or for running around public streets smeared with shiat. Marvel doesn't see a difference, so long as they get attention and someone throws them a buck.

Comics are a business, and they are looking for QUICK QUICK QUICK profits in a dying medium, so they orchestrate progressively worse soap opera level plots, completely shiat-canning any kind of relevant continuity to fit editorial whim. But that costs "goodwill", another vital ingredient in business, where the customer trusts you, feels you are putting out a quality product that "matters", and that you do what you can to address customers' concerns fairly and politely. Having editors and creators take to the social media sites to goad or troll or insult fans is far from professional. If they are so proud of the work, let it stand on it's own. People will like or hate it without having to take it "personal" via direct responses to messages.

I've seen some goofy comics in the past, and had to weather "bad stories", but the Clone Saga and OMD was the first ones that caused me to disregard the printed page and focus on the creators behind it. They were managed so badly (and in OMD's case, so bad from the get-go) that you HAD to ask "where the hell is the editor or editor in chief on this, who the hell green-lit this" and then you realize the editor, the guy hired to safeguard the character like a chaperon at the prom, is pimping the kid out for tricks behind the gym. The EDITOR is the writer, the BOSS is telling the stories that fundamentally betray the character they are hired to "protect", and no employee is gonna tell him his plan SUCKS. That gets you crap like OMD.

After OMD, they already jumped the shark, so now their just trolling readers with more and more crap. I don't even hate Slott, I liked several of his stories ("Arkham Asylum" was great!), but I have read #700 and unless they leaked a full issue as a fake, then I can't help but read it and think "very bad, bad idea, you have to fix this quick". It's like a depressing, bad "What If?" comic. When the writer himself knows he's gonna have to hide in a cave after 700's release, then you know what you are writing is gonna seriously displease the fans (customers) to epic levels. How smart is that, business-wise?

There are so many negative consequences for the character, the brand, the marketability and the character itself in the context of story, from this idea. It's not just a short story arc - they issued a new series and new numbering, and allege that this is for the long term (yeah, right). Ock will lay waste to Parker's life, (possibly) screw his ex (or exs) under deception (i.e. RAPE), and Gawd only knows what else. The alternative is that Parker's family catches on, and thus that requires a whole new supporting cast. And there is no way that Parker, if restored, would recover from that, nor would he ever be ok with that, for any reason, even if it's a last wish. Sorry, in No. 700 the hero lost, lost badly, lost pathetically (for now, anyway), and had his whole life co-opted by a mass murder, who we NOW are asked to spend money on to read about (as if someone like that could be redeemed). And not just a down on his luck criminal trying to repent by becoming Spidey, or a new hero trying to live up to the name, but a MAJOR LEAGUE mass murderer. Only someone who thought selling your marriage to the devil was a good idea could green-light that. I can't imagine the MOUSE is gonna be ok with this for long. This will undoubtedly be reversed, stripping the creators of even more credibility, Marvel of even more good will, and proving, yet again, that the guys in charge have got to go. The Clone Saga and OMD taught them nothing.

Marvel and DC's problems will not be solved until the brass running them (I'm looking at you, Quesada and Didio) are shown the door. OMD proved that to me for Marvel, and DCNu (nice idea, badly executed, done too often) was for Didio. And OMD killed me on Spider-Man. Not Marvel in general, but Spider-Man. But 700 killed me for Marvel. The lunatics are running the asylum, and I'm tired of funding it. If I see wholesale change, I may be back, but no promises. You lost the good will, Marvel - you lost the trust. I'd be embarrassed to try to coax a kid into reading this stuff now.

So thank you, Marvel, for encouraging me to save money, or to give my money to new creators with new ideas, new characters, etc. OMD helped to introduce me to new DC comics I'd never considered, and 700 is gonna do the same for others. Thanks for the years of taking my money, but that's done now. Best of luck, you're gonna need every ounce of it.

Were Marvel's comics always this stupid? I basically gave up trying with them just before that whole Onslaught saga thing when they killed pretty much everybody, but were they ever really any less dumb than this even before that?

Gunny Highway:Rwa2play: For me it's Zatanna, GL and Captain Marvel. Right now however the DCnU's a mess; so I've just dropped them altogether and wait 'till they get their crap together.

I have been enjoying Frankenstein, Batman, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, and All Star Westerns a lot. Stopped reading everything else.

I enjoyed Zatanna's book; HATED TPTB turning Zatanna into a goth chick. Farking stupid, didn't like it in the Seven Soldiers story, like it even less now.

STILL can't understand how Geoff Johns can write an incredible, compelling story in "Rebirth", write the first 50 or so issues of GL well...then descend into the stupid that is his current gigs.

Frankly, most writing in the major books of both DC and Marvel these days scream "WE NEED YOU TO BUY THIS BOOK!" I mean jeez, even JK Rowling can write a decent story about magic and make ungodly sums of money out of it, why can't they?

Rwa2play:STILL can't understand how Geoff Johns can write an incredible, compelling story in "Rebirth", write the first 50 or so issues of GL well...then descend into the stupid that is his current gigs.

I concur in spades. I LOVED Rebirth, and what came after. A blast.

Either his creative tank has run dry, he's "pressured" into these stories by outside persons, or he's stretched too thin with new work responsibilities.

You know, I always laugh at posts like this because the very people who say "Damn, I wish 'X' would retire/die" will either biatch about the new person playing the same character (i.e. Dick becoming Batman, et. al.) or let us know what a great movie "Skyfall" was. I OTOH take it in stride: if I don't like it, I don't buy it.

Also: This is why the Utlimate Universe has never appealed to me. There will come a point in the Utlimate Universe where the writers will get stuck and have to end the UU; Marvel (seeing as there's too much money being made in UU comics, whatever that amount is) can't end it and will tell the writers to figure out another way to NOT end it so they can keep making money off of it.

Well, I personally don't care when they change actors/characters, provided they do it tastefully in accordance with the values of the said character. For example, Connery was the best Bond, and he had to go at some point. I hated most Moore and Brosnan Bond movies, not because they changed the actors, but because they mutated the character into something stupid. I do enjoy the newer movies much more.

If no one wants to see Dick Grayson as Batman (buys the books), and you actually have some regard for the character, isn't it better to retire the character than to sully it with pointless stories that make everyone hate him?

DarkPascual:Oh, I knew that. I actually thought that "Batman Inc," had some awesome potential and I was under the impression that the "New 52" would carry that storyline...

It did. It just took awhile for Batman Inc vol 2 to start up again. The finale of the first volume got sidetracked by the new 52 and then got released as a special after it despite being set before it. Bit of a mess but it worked out I think.

Thankfully, with some edits, everything in the Grant Morrisson run is current as well as much of his post-Crisis history. While Superman is fairly recent as the first "public" superhero, Batman had been operating for years before as an unconfirmed urban legend.

Decillion:It's really that there are a set amount of characters that are established and they have to be used continuously. Has there been any new 'big' characters created since the 60's? Spawn broke out for a while I guess. Otherwise it's always:

Spider-manThorIron ManCaptain AmericaHulkDaredevilX-MenFantastic Four

BatmanSupermanGreen LanternFlashWonder Woman

Depends on your definition. Known in comics "big" or known to non-comics fans "big"? There've been a fair number in the first category and even a few in the second.

Off the top of my head...

The All New X-Men--Wolverine--Storm--ColossusGambitRogueDeadpoolElektraUltimate Nick FuryBooster GoldThe New Gods (including Darkseid)FirestormLoboJohn ConstantineHellboySpawn

Pyynk:Decillion: It's really that there are a set amount of characters that are established and they have to be used continuously. Has there been any new 'big' characters created since the 60's? Spawn broke out for a while I guess. Otherwise it's always:

Spider-manThorIron ManCaptain AmericaHulkDaredevilX-MenFantastic Four

BatmanSupermanGreen LanternFlashWonder Woman

Depends on your definition. Known in comics "big" or known to non-comics fans "big"? There've been a fair number in the first category and even a few in the second.

Off the top of my head...

The All New X-Men--Wolverine--Storm--ColossusGambitRogueDeadpoolElektraUltimate Nick FuryBooster GoldThe New Gods (including Darkseid)FirestormLoboJohn ConstantineHellboySpawn

I grew up as a DC fanboy, thanks to the Super-Friends cartoons. Now that DC kept fiddling with their continuity over and over again (Crisis was necessary, but Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis and Nu52 were not), I've pretty much given up on them. The only thing i'm reading by DC is Legion Of Super Heroes, since it basically follows the pre-Crisis continuity with some slight alterations added from the post-Zero Hour and Threeboot Legions. Plus Paul Levitz is writing it, and his 1982-1989 run was the title's zenith, especially "The Great Darkness Saga" and "Who Is Sensor Girl?".

The only Marvel titles I'm following now are Spider-Man (but not much longer if this rumor is true), X-men, and X-Factor. X-Men got a lot better after they killed off Jean (and stay dead, you puta), added the glorious Queen B*tch Emma to cast and made Cyclops a total dick.

FuryOfFirestorm:I grew up as a DC fanboy, thanks to the Super-Friends cartoons. Now that DC kept fiddling with their continuity over and over again (Crisis was necessary, but Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis and Nu52 were not), I've pretty much given up on them. The only thing i'm reading by DC is Legion Of Super Heroes, since it basically follows the pre-Crisis continuity with some slight alterations added from the post-Zero Hour and Threeboot Legions. Plus Paul Levitz is writing it, and his 1982-1989 run was the title's zenith, especially "The Great Darkness Saga" and "Who Is Sensor Girl?".

The only Marvel titles I'm following now are Spider-Man (but not much longer if this rumor is true), X-men, and X-Factor. X-Men got a lot better after they killed off Jean (and stay dead, you puta), added the glorious Queen B*tch Emma to cast and made Cyclops a total dick.

Of the X-books, Uncanny X-Force and Wolverine and the X-men, especially Wolverine and the X-Men, have been fantastic recently. It is a shame that X-Force ended today.

Decillion:Jgok: It's not just comic book fans. R.A. Salvatore got death threats for killing off Chewie, and he was essentially ordered to do so... by Lucas himself.

/chill out, fans//Chewie went out like a BOSSI must have been dreaming but I could swear Chewie had a planet dropped on him. That can't be right.

A moon, so close enough. He made a choice to save Han's son even though he knew it would cost him his own life. He died a hero, roaring defiance as the moon came down (and then Han turned into a whiny drunk bastard).

PonceAlyosha:Rwa2play: Trafficguy2000: God Marvel Now has sucked so hard

Uh, Noooooooooooooooo. "The Avengers" is pretty "holy sh*t" epic by the art alone.

Not to mention how farking great Hawkguy is.

sorry I haven't picked up the Avengers yet but I don't like the direction Uncanny Avengers is heading. , Iron Man in space and Captain America in another dimension ,I just don't like it that much. at least we'll always have X Factor and Wolverine and the x-men hopefully./ I will keep reading of course because I am 1 of those guys

likefunbutnot:pkellmey: Apparently, the author is trying to sneak in a chance for the worst comic book writer of the year award before the end of the year.

The thing is, Dan Slott gets Spider-Man on a deep, genetic level. Slott has been responsible for the best Spider-Man comics in decades. I'm completely willing to see where he's going with this, if only because this IS Dan Slott.

"I've always been the omniscient hand that's been protecting Peter Parker and Spider-Man, and not letting anything too bad happen to him," he adds. "And now I've become this cruel god. There's something exciting about that, about going, 'Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha, here is what's going to happen to you, Spider-Man!' And it's drastic and it's big and it's exciting and it's never been done before."

Writer with a god complex and the reins to one of the most popular superheroes in comic history!

Brainsick:likefunbutnot: pkellmey: Apparently, the author is trying to sneak in a chance for the worst comic book writer of the year award before the end of the year.

The thing is, Dan Slott gets Spider-Man on a deep, genetic level. Slott has been responsible for the best Spider-Man comics in decades. I'm completely willing to see where he's going with this, if only because this IS Dan Slott.

However, this "enormous" change is an all-new development for the decades-old character and will result in a far darker Spider-Man than fans have ever seen, promises Dan Slott, the Amazing Spider-Man writer who's heading up Superior Spider-Man. "The one thing that does not go with this Spider-Man is the term 'Friendly neighborhood.' No. That's gone.

"I've always been the omniscient hand that's been protecting Peter Parker and Spider-Man, and not letting anything too bad happen to him," he adds. "And now I've become this cruel god. There's something exciting about that, about going, 'Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha, here is what's going to happen to you, Spider-Man!' And it's drastic and it's big and it's exciting and it's never been done before."

[i186.photobucket.com image 506x105]Writer with a god complex and the reins to one of the most popular superheroes in comic history!

Brainsick:likefunbutnot: pkellmey: Apparently, the author is trying to sneak in a chance for the worst comic book writer of the year award before the end of the year.

The thing is, Dan Slott gets Spider-Man on a deep, genetic level. Slott has been responsible for the best Spider-Man comics in decades. I'm completely willing to see where he's going with this, if only because this IS Dan Slott.

However, this "enormous" change is an all-new development for the decades-old character and will result in a far darker Spider-Man than fans have ever seen, promises Dan Slott, the Amazing Spider-Man writer who's heading up Superior Spider-Man. "The one thing that does not go with this Spider-Man is the term 'Friendly neighborhood.' No. That's gone.

"I've always been the omniscient hand that's been protecting Peter Parker and Spider-Man, and not letting anything too bad happen to him," he adds. "And now I've become this cruel god. There's something exciting about that, about going, 'Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha, here is what's going to happen to you, Spider-Man!' And it's drastic and it's big and it's exciting and it's never been done before."

[i186.photobucket.com image 506x105]Writer with a god complex and the reins to one of the most popular superheroes in comic history!

/that is all.

Yeah, they tried to do the "darker and grittier Spider-Man" bit in the '90s. It sucked so bad that they started the whole Clone Saga thing to un-do it.

That's right, the Clone Saga was an attempt to fix something that was even worse.