Sure, there's nothing stopping that from being used - that's part of the reason why Chi generation is so important in general, because it's not just about Shuffle/Purifying, it also ties into your level 30 talents as well, and even that if you're specced for it.

It is a much weaker comparison to Xuen than a comparison between HP and ES, so if you are in general averse to speccing for HP, it'd make no real sense to talent RJW, but you wouldn't be using BoF anyway unless you're dealing with something trivial.

tbh, i was merely listing aoe possibility, not stating what should or should not be used in that exact instance

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPSAmirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego. Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

Darielle wrote:The packs in question have the mobs doing the buff that reduces aoe damage by 90% (and it's case ~5 seconds in), but single target damage will not be affected by that buff. It's also why Survival Hunters on that pull do hilarious amounts of damage through Serpent Sting. You're essentially looking at a very niche mechanic and applying it as a general case.

In this case we are talknig about the packs pre "big dog" - once the big dog has spawned I would suffer the same and not be able to pull them off just with diseases (they don't do THAT much damage/threat), its Blood Boil.

Nooska wrote:I have not, however offered any solutiosn, though HW doing X damage to each target (up to 10 - if we want to be reasonable with the aoe cap) would be a good place to start. Still would be "beat" by DKs, since diseases are singletarget damage that just gets applied to everything via pestilence/roiling blood.

I dislike the idea of bossting Prism, simply because its a talent that all specs has access to - also its a level 90 talent, where as roiling blood, for comparison, is a level 15 talent.

HW, HotR or Cons are the places to look for a aoe threat boost for Prot paladins - conc is fairly powerful as is (just not very snap, and not good against snap), so I wouldn't look there. HotR hits like a wet noodle, but any buff to that would necessitate a buff to CS as well or CS goes out the window for single target, so we are left with looking at HW.

This is basically my opinion on the matter. We're fine in sustained AoE damage, but in terms of "snap" damage we trail most other tanks, even before the Vengeance issue is addressed. And the problem is primarily that Cons is a huge portion of our AoE damage, but it applies that damage very slowly.

I don't care for the "just spec prism" argument because while Prism is an excellent snap aggro ability, it's also sort of stupid to have to constantly respec after and before every boss just to be reasonably competent on trash. That's really not what they had in mind with the new talent system. The ideal is that our snap aggro is a little more comparable to other classes baseline (though still lower, IMO, to compensate for the fact that you could have Prism - just not as low as it is now).

Holy Wrath losing the meteor effect would definitely accomplish that. I think that doing so would probably be too large of a buff to our AoE DPS in the absence of other nerfs though. If it were up to me, Holy Wrath would lose the meteor effect and Consecration AP scaling would be nerfed to keep our overall AoE damage fairly constant.

That still makes HW>Cons the priority for both single-target and AoE, however. A better solution might be that Holy Wrath gets re-worked to do full damage to the primary target and half damage to all other targets. That would allow the tuning knobs to make a single HW cast higher damage than Cons in single-target situations but lower damage in multi-target situations (Cons might do 75% of HW's single-target damage, such that the crossover is 2 targets).

theckhd wrote: A better solution might be that Holy Wrath gets re-worked to do full damage to the primary target and half damage to all other targets. That would allow the tuning knobs to make a single HW cast higher damage than Cons in single-target situations but lower damage in multi-target situations (Cons might do 75% of HW's single-target damage, such that the crossover is 2 targets).

theckhd wrote:A better solution might be that Holy Wrath gets re-worked to do full damage to the primary target and half damage to all other targets. That would allow the tuning knobs to make a single HW cast higher damage than Cons in single-target situations but lower damage in multi-target situations (Cons might do 75% of HW's single-target damage, such that the crossover is 2 targets).

theckhd wrote:A better solution might be that Holy Wrath gets re-worked to do full damage to the primary target and half damage to all other targets. That would allow the tuning knobs to make a single HW cast higher damage than Cons in single-target situations but lower damage in multi-target situations (Cons might do 75% of HW's single-target damage, such that the crossover is 2 targets).

Wouldn't that make it almost identical to HotR?

How about the other way around? High damage to secondary targets, lower damage to primary target.

I like that for AoE, but that would make it a sort of trap ability when tanking something with an dadd, where you would have to switch to the add for HW to "do it right" (unless the add was to be focused down first). If you have an aoe situation where you need to focus one add down, it would also be a bit of a trap, as the right thing to do as a tank is to have the focused target as your main target to make sure it doesn't slip away from the focusing - but you would be doing more damage to the other targets with one of your abilities.

I like that for AoE, but that would make it a sort of trap ability when tanking something with an dadd, where you would have to switch to the add for HW to "do it right" (unless the add was to be focused down first). If you have an aoe situation where you need to focus one add down, it would also be a bit of a trap, as the right thing to do as a tank is to have the focused target as your main target to make sure it doesn't slip away from the focusing - but you would be doing more damage to the other targets with one of your abilities.

In fact, didn't some version of old cleaving HotR or something have that kind of exact silly interaction for a short while? It gets a vague recollection that it's happened before, and they finally realised that it was silly.

Plus the point of the high damage primary is to ensure it's above Cons. If it was inverted, 50% of a HW would have to try and beat Cons, at which point HW would outdo Cons for both single target and aoe, and that's ... odd.

Frankly, if the entire point is to get more into one button, frontloading more onto both CS and HotR equally and then hitting down, say, ShoR's, or even Consecration's damage makes much more sense.

Last edited by Darielle on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Memory stirring more tells me it had to with level. There was something where we (or another class I guess, seeing as I've played several over time) wanted to hit an add or a critter if we could because it had a smaller miss chance? Maybe it was just when they changed HotR to be all or nothing on the primary target, so we wanted to hit an add when we weren't capping Hit/Exp, so that we had less misses (which I guess technically still applies, except we actually value Hit/Exp)?

How about changing consec's damage profile? Instead of having 9 equal damage ticks, with the first tick dealing damage after a second, have 10 ticks, with the first tick applying instantly (shadow word:pain style), the first 3 ticks each doing 15% of the total damage, and the remaining 7 each doing 7.86% of the total damage.

That would just lead to "recast Cons after 3 ticks" or stuff like that - more mana intensive, but higher damage output.Also, the issue remains for any add that come sin after the first tick (since there sitll isn't any snap aggro ability for paladins, unlike other tanks)

How about saying: The first tick of Consecrate deals triple damage, after then the normal amount of damage is dealt. This cannot occur more often than every 20 seconds.

So a mob that enters the Consecrate AoE takes a big chunk of damage, and then the normal amount from then onwards. The cooldown on the extra damage would stop people moving the mobs around to get extra damage.

Nooska wrote:That would just lead to "recast Cons after 3 ticks" or stuff like that - more mana intensive, but higher damage output.Also, the issue remains for any add that come sin after the first tick (since there sitll isn't any snap aggro ability for paladins, unlike other tanks)

How are you going to recast it when it has a cooldown? oO

And it's not like paladins are short of single target pickups for individual adds that appear later.

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

So they tried out valor having continued use to increase your items, now they're trying out rare-drop higher ilevel loot. Guess this is the "lets experiment with new ways to extend content and keep people raiding" expansion. Blizzard don't seem to like that much of the patch cycle tends to be high activity when a new tier/season launches then a decline until the next comes out.

This system is different, and I'm not sure there's anything wrong with the idea. Lets see how it feels in practice.

Regarding 10/25: Any benefit that is theoretical and not immediately recognisable when playing is going to have a minimal effect on which size raid people choose. Having a "small chance" for slightly better loot isn't something that will instantly make people feel that organising a 25 is worth the effort, though it might bring some players across.