What is your favorite epoxy glue for laminating stems?

I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don t like the fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems. Has

Message 1 of 26
, Nov 1, 2010

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I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems. Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a stiff brush?

James D. Marco

Hi Bret, System Three is OK. There are actually several kinds for use on boats. I am guessing you are using regular stuff. The Clear Coat is much thinner

Message 2 of 26
, Nov 2, 2010

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Hi Bret,
System Three is OK. There are actually several kinds for use on boats.
I am guessing you are using regular stuff. The "Clear Coat" is much thinner
than the regular (low viscosity for wet out.) It also does not "dry" quite as hard
and brittle...it takes a full 24hours to set well enough to sand it. I would
suggest this is what you are after for wet out, but not really for laminates.
MAS is about the same and works well for wet out.
For stems and other wood laminations, you actually want thick. A
small amount of micro-balloon filler, too. Otherwise the epoxy can run out
along the joint before it sets, leaving a glue starved joint and a weak piece.
You can also use wood flour as a filler. Epoxy likes a relatively thick glue
line compared with white or yellow glue. Laminating stems can be painful
because of the pressure (used to bend the strips) can build up enough
to squeeze too much out. A filler is needed to pick up the pressure and
still leave an adequate glue line. Even thick epoxy, like west or system 3,
is not good enough all alone for this task. You really want the filler to insure
a consistent glue line. West works well for laminating.
If it looks like you are having trouble spreading it, add a small amount
of acetone to your mix. In a plastic camp cup, about 1/3 full of epoxy mix,
add about 2tbs of microballons or 2tbs of wood flour. If it seems too thick,
add a spoon full of acetone. (Just to give you an idea of how much to add.)
Try not to thin it too much. Again, you will have problems with delamination
by putting on too thin of a layer. It should look a lot like thick molasses, if
you used sanding dust.) You can add a bit more as you work and the
epoxy hardens. Basically, if you can apply it with a paint brush, it is
probably too thin to be used for laminating. A glue brush will work, though.
Tim quoted a study that indicated some short chain formation
in the epoxy by adding acetone. I have done this for 4 boats and not seen
any structural problems. One is about 10 years old, now. Soo, I don't
think the loss of strength is a serious problem. I do this a LOT on other
boats (maybe 20 or so kevlar, fiberglass,) as a scratch fix. You can thin it
out to less viscosity than water, the epoxy will still harden (I use this as a
fresh gel coat on my kevlar boat every couple years to "fix" light
scratches.)
My thoughts only . . .
jdm
At 10:01 PM 11/1/2010, you wrote:

>I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems. Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a stiff brush?
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

Charles & Dana Scott

Hi Brett, I d like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together to prevent

Message 3 of 26
, Nov 2, 2010

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Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.

Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
before. It worked fine.

You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.

I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the
fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems.
Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a
stiff brush?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bret Smith

Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for wetting the

Message 4 of 26
, Nov 2, 2010

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Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for wetting the fiberglass?

Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.

Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
before. It worked fine.

You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.

I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the
fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems.
Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a
stiff brush?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

James D. Marco

Hi Bret, Well, yes. I was assuming, that with any stem on a boat, you would be doing more river running (a lot of rocks and other wear and tear) than lake

Message 5 of 26
, Nov 2, 2010

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Hi Bret,
Well, yes. I was assuming, that with any stem on a boat, you
would be doing more river running (a lot of rocks and other wear
and tear) than lake cruising. You never really need a stem, otherwise
...'cept if you like the way it looks. Corky will no doubt add in his own
comments...he knows more about boat building than me, I'm just a
retired carpenter/computer scientist.
There are a lot of ways to build canoes. None of them wrong.
The old style keels and stems were hold overs from old style frame
and skin type, later clinker built, then lapstrake canoes. Canvas was
easier to waterproof than cedar, so, we saw a lot of these around
1890-1940 or so. There are still a lot of people out there that build
this way. Or,the older frame and skin, for that matter. They all have
advantages and nostalgic proponents.
Getting back to cedar strips/fiberglass canoes, modern
monocoque engineering (developed mostly in aircraft in the 50's)
shows that the entire skin is stronger than most old style canoes,
and it uses no framing. Wear, however, is about the only time you
want a heavier stem. Repeated hits on a rock will eventually break
any fiberglass/epoxy (it is brittle). And it abrades fairly easily on
sand, soo, this is why my assumption of your paddling use.
(Of course, you could use graphite or kevlar cloth, too...same
technique...)
I do mostly lake paddling, with some white water, river running
thrown in. I don't use separate stem or a keel. Rather, I rely on hull
design and heavier coatings (skid plates) to take up the wear and
occasional tango with a rock.
On my first boat I did put both. I could stand on it when it was
upside down. A bit of overkill, I am afraid.
Anyway, getting back to wear and rock damage, you will find
that a cracked epoxy skin will leak water. Soo, if you use white glue
it will weaken the laminate. Even yellow glue will weaken. Epoxy,
used as a glue, has pretty much been the standard, but the past few
years. Newer glues, I have lost track of...just too many out there to
know which one to pick. Even then a 20 year creep test still takes 20
years to be sure.
Anyway, what were you talking about if not laminating stems?
I'm afraid I missed the point of your question...old age, I guess...
Maybe someone else has a better thought...
My apologies...
jdm

At 01:28 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote:

>Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for wetting the fiberglass?
>
>Bret
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Charles & Dana Scott
> To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 12:19 PM
> Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for laminating stems?
>
>
>
> Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
> there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
> to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
> there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
> as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.
>
> Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
> of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
> microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
> Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
> before. It worked fine.
>
> You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
> the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.
>
> Corky Scott
>
> _____
>
> From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bret
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:02 PM
> To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for
> laminating stems?
>
> I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the
> fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems.
> Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a
> stiff brush?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

Bret

James, Maybe I confused the issue. Up until now, I have been using a product by System Three called T-88 for laminations. This is a structural epoxy that is

Message 6 of 26
, Nov 2, 2010

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James,

Maybe I confused the issue. Up until now, I have been using a product by System Three called T-88 for laminations. This is a structural epoxy that is two-parts that are mixed in equal amounts. The result is a strong, waterproof bond that dries to an amber hue.

My question was what others have used for laminations. I have heard that others were simply using West Systems 105 resin and the hardener for laminations. While I like using the West epoxy for the fiberglass work I was not sure if the 105 resin would provide the structural strength necessary for stem laminations. I appreciate your emphasis on using a thickening agent such as wood dust in order to keep from starving the joint.

What I enjoy most about this forum is the ability to hear alternative views and different ways of doing things.

Bret

--- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, "James D. Marco" <jdm27@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bret,
> Well, yes. I was assuming, that with any stem on a boat, you
> would be doing more river running (a lot of rocks and other wear
> and tear) than lake cruising. You never really need a stem, otherwise
> ...'cept if you like the way it looks. Corky will no doubt add in his own
> comments...he knows more about boat building than me, I'm just a
> retired carpenter/computer scientist.
> There are a lot of ways to build canoes. None of them wrong.
> The old style keels and stems were hold overs from old style frame
> and skin type, later clinker built, then lapstrake canoes. Canvas was
> easier to waterproof than cedar, so, we saw a lot of these around
> 1890-1940 or so. There are still a lot of people out there that build
> this way. Or,the older frame and skin, for that matter. They all have
> advantages and nostalgic proponents.
> Getting back to cedar strips/fiberglass canoes, modern
> monocoque engineering (developed mostly in aircraft in the 50's)
> shows that the entire skin is stronger than most old style canoes,
> and it uses no framing. Wear, however, is about the only time you
> want a heavier stem. Repeated hits on a rock will eventually break
> any fiberglass/epoxy (it is brittle). And it abrades fairly easily on
> sand, soo, this is why my assumption of your paddling use.
> (Of course, you could use graphite or kevlar cloth, too...same
> technique...)
> I do mostly lake paddling, with some white water, river running
> thrown in. I don't use separate stem or a keel. Rather, I rely on hull
> design and heavier coatings (skid plates) to take up the wear and
> occasional tango with a rock.
> On my first boat I did put both. I could stand on it when it was
> upside down. A bit of overkill, I am afraid.
> Anyway, getting back to wear and rock damage, you will find
> that a cracked epoxy skin will leak water. Soo, if you use white glue
> it will weaken the laminate. Even yellow glue will weaken. Epoxy,
> used as a glue, has pretty much been the standard, but the past few
> years. Newer glues, I have lost track of...just too many out there to
> know which one to pick. Even then a 20 year creep test still takes 20
> years to be sure.
> Anyway, what were you talking about if not laminating stems?
> I'm afraid I missed the point of your question...old age, I guess...
> Maybe someone else has a better thought...
> My apologies...
> jdm
>
> At 01:28 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote:
> >Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for wetting the fiberglass?
> >
> >Bret
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Charles & Dana Scott
> > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 12:19 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for laminating stems?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
> > there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
> > to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
> > there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
> > as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.
> >
> > Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
> > of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
> > microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
> > Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
> > before. It worked fine.
> >
> > You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
> > the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.
> >
> > Corky Scott
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bret
> > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:02 PM
> > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for
> > laminating stems?
> >
> > I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the
> > fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems.
> > Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a
> > stiff brush?
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> James Marco,
> 302 Mary Lane,
> Ithaca, NY 14850
> 607-273-9132
>

Tim

Bret- If you go on the manufacturer s websites they will give you the physical properties of all their various products- I think the 105 resin will give a high

Message 7 of 26
, Nov 2, 2010

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Bret-

If you go on the manufacturer's websites they will give you the physical properties of all their various products- I think the 105 resin will give a high percentage of the strength of T-88, and will be considerably stronger than the wood you are laminating. Some of the super-clear epoxies may have worse numbers, but the general-purpose pretty clear ones are close to the best structurals.

The keys in fillers are choosing one that is as strong as the wood you are laminating, and not putting in too much filler so that the epoxy still has adhesion. Watch out for fillers that are intended only for fairing (they will be lightweight and sand easily), I think cab-o-sil is one of these. If you use wood flour, have it be a wood as strong as the one you're laminating- like ash laminations shouldn't have cedar flour, use ash. If you err when mixing in fillers, err on the side of putting in too little so it keeps being sticky.

Tim Greiner

--- Bret wrote:

>
> James,
>
> Maybe I confused the issue. Up until now, I have been using a product by System Three called T-88 for laminations. This is a structural epoxy that is two-parts that are mixed in equal amounts. The result is a strong, waterproof bond that dries to an amber hue.
>
> My question was what others have used for laminations. I have heard that others were simply using West Systems 105 resin and the hardener for laminations. While I like using the West epoxy for the fiberglass work I was not sure if the 105 resin would provide the structural strength necessary for stem laminations. I appreciate your emphasis on using a thickening agent such as wood dust in order to keep from starving the joint.
>
> What I enjoy most about this forum is the ability to hear alternative views and different ways of doing things.
>
> Bret
>
> --- James D. Marco wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bret,
> > Well, yes. I was assuming, that with any stem on a boat, you
> > would be doing more river running (a lot of rocks and other wear
> > and tear) than lake cruising. You never really need a stem, otherwise
> > ...'cept if you like the way it looks. Corky will no doubt add in his own
> > comments...he knows more about boat building than me, I'm just a
> > retired carpenter/computer scientist.
> > There are a lot of ways to build canoes. None of them wrong.
> > The old style keels and stems were hold overs from old style frame
> > and skin type, later clinker built, then lapstrake canoes. Canvas was
> > easier to waterproof than cedar, so, we saw a lot of these around
> > 1890-1940 or so. There are still a lot of people out there that build
> > this way. Or,the older frame and skin, for that matter. They all have
> > advantages and nostalgic proponents.
> > Getting back to cedar strips/fiberglass canoes, modern
> > monocoque engineering (developed mostly in aircraft in the 50's)
> > shows that the entire skin is stronger than most old style canoes,
> > and it uses no framing. Wear, however, is about the only time you
> > want a heavier stem. Repeated hits on a rock will eventually break
> > any fiberglass/epoxy (it is brittle). And it abrades fairly easily on
> > sand, soo, this is why my assumption of your paddling use.
> > (Of course, you could use graphite or kevlar cloth, too...same
> > technique...)
> > I do mostly lake paddling, with some white water, river running
> > thrown in. I don't use separate stem or a keel. Rather, I rely on hull
> > design and heavier coatings (skid plates) to take up the wear and
> > occasional tango with a rock.
> > On my first boat I did put both. I could stand on it when it was
> > upside down. A bit of overkill, I am afraid.
> > Anyway, getting back to wear and rock damage, you will find
> > that a cracked epoxy skin will leak water. Soo, if you use white glue
> > it will weaken the laminate. Even yellow glue will weaken. Epoxy,
> > used as a glue, has pretty much been the standard, but the past few
> > years. Newer glues, I have lost track of...just too many out there to
> > know which one to pick. Even then a 20 year creep test still takes 20
> > years to be sure.
> > Anyway, what were you talking about if not laminating stems?
> > I'm afraid I missed the point of your question...old age, I guess...
> > Maybe someone else has a better thought...
> > My apologies...
> > jdm
> >
> >
> > > Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
> > > there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
> > > to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
> > > there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
> > > as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.
> > >
> > > Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
> > > of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
> > > microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
> > > Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
> > > before. It worked fine.
> > >
> > > You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
> > > the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.
> > >
> > > Corky Scott
> >

James D. Marco

Bret, Oh, I got it right, then. Yeah, for laminations, you can use any good epoxy that you would use for glass. As Tim says, they all exceed the strength of

Message 8 of 26
, Nov 3, 2010

0 Attachment

Bret,
Oh, I got it right, then. Yeah, for laminations, you can use any
good epoxy that you would use for glass. As Tim says, they all exceed
the strength of the wood if done correctly.
Once you exceed the strength of the wood, any failures will be
the result of the wood itself, ripped out fibers, cracked layers, etc. It
doesn't make any real sense to use super strong adhesives for this
because the wood will break long before the glue lets loose.
Kind'a like edge doweling. In the days of hot hide glue, it made
sense. Today, it doesn't. Most laminates will break somewhere else,
NOT at the glue line. This presupposes a good joint. Over clamping,
ie, clamping too tight, can squeeze glue out of the joint. Releasing the
clamps after the glue sets will allow it to spring back, on a microscopic
level. This leaves a "soft" joint...glue starved and weak. Epoxy depends
on bonding with itself and into the microscopic pores of the wood for
it's strength. Soo, this condition is very bad for epoxy. Squeezing it out
will cause it to fail. Using a filler, as Tim says, of equal strength of the
wood, will force the pieces to stay spread apart the distance needed
for the epoxy to work it's magic. It also gives you some friction for
clamping so the pieces don't slide out of position.
The upside to using epoxy is that any gaps can be filled with
epoxy. Unlike a wood glue, it sticks to itself. It does not depend on
pores for bonding, if you do it within 24 hours...the "chemical" bond.
Building an occasional paddle or two, I have been using regular
glass epoxy for a number of years. As a carpenter, some woods
almost require it. Rosewood is one. Repairing a lifted laminate on
a table top, it was the only way I could get it down. High density, oily
woods in general will bond better with epoxy.
That said, on my first boat, I used yellow glue on the stems and
keel, reinforced with some joinery. That works fine, but you have to keep
it sealed. Water will soften it. The newer glues are supposed to be water
proof...verdict is still out, in my book. 'Corse, I built that boat over 30
years ago. I know different, today.
Marc, a member here, does a lot of paddle work, he might be
able to supply additional help with laminations. Here is his business
address. http://dogpaddlecanoe.com/
He does some really high quality work.
My thoughts only . . .
jdm
At 09:15 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote:

>James,
>
>Maybe I confused the issue. Up until now, I have been using a product by System Three called T-88 for laminations. This is a structural epoxy that is two-parts that are mixed in equal amounts. The result is a strong, waterproof bond that dries to an amber hue.
>
>My question was what others have used for laminations. I have heard that others were simply using West Systems 105 resin and the hardener for laminations. While I like using the West epoxy for the fiberglass work I was not sure if the 105 resin would provide the structural strength necessary for stem laminations. I appreciate your emphasis on using a thickening agent such as wood dust in order to keep from starving the joint.
>
>What I enjoy most about this forum is the ability to hear alternative views and different ways of doing things.
>
>Bret
>
>--- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, "James D. Marco" <jdm27@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Bret,
>> Well, yes. I was assuming, that with any stem on a boat, you
>> would be doing more river running (a lot of rocks and other wear
>> and tear) than lake cruising. You never really need a stem, otherwise
>> ...'cept if you like the way it looks. Corky will no doubt add in his own
>> comments...he knows more about boat building than me, I'm just a
>> retired carpenter/computer scientist.
>> There are a lot of ways to build canoes. None of them wrong.
>> The old style keels and stems were hold overs from old style frame
>> and skin type, later clinker built, then lapstrake canoes. Canvas was
>> easier to waterproof than cedar, so, we saw a lot of these around
>> 1890-1940 or so. There are still a lot of people out there that build
>> this way. Or,the older frame and skin, for that matter. They all have
>> advantages and nostalgic proponents.
>> Getting back to cedar strips/fiberglass canoes, modern
>> monocoque engineering (developed mostly in aircraft in the 50's)
>> shows that the entire skin is stronger than most old style canoes,
>> and it uses no framing. Wear, however, is about the only time you
>> want a heavier stem. Repeated hits on a rock will eventually break
>> any fiberglass/epoxy (it is brittle). And it abrades fairly easily on
>> sand, soo, this is why my assumption of your paddling use.
>> (Of course, you could use graphite or kevlar cloth, too...same
>> technique...)
>> I do mostly lake paddling, with some white water, river running
>> thrown in. I don't use separate stem or a keel. Rather, I rely on hull
>> design and heavier coatings (skid plates) to take up the wear and
>> occasional tango with a rock.
>> On my first boat I did put both. I could stand on it when it was
>> upside down. A bit of overkill, I am afraid.
>> Anyway, getting back to wear and rock damage, you will find
>> that a cracked epoxy skin will leak water. Soo, if you use white glue
>> it will weaken the laminate. Even yellow glue will weaken. Epoxy,
>> used as a glue, has pretty much been the standard, but the past few
>> years. Newer glues, I have lost track of...just too many out there to
>> know which one to pick. Even then a 20 year creep test still takes 20
>> years to be sure.
>> Anyway, what were you talking about if not laminating stems?
>> I'm afraid I missed the point of your question...old age, I guess...
>> Maybe someone else has a better thought...
>> My apologies...
>> jdm
>>
>> At 01:28 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote:
>> >Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for wetting the fiberglass?
>> >
>> >Bret
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Charles & Dana Scott
>> > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 12:19 PM
>> > Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for laminating stems?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
>> > there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
>> > to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
>> > there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
>> > as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.
>> >
>> > Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
>> > of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
>> > microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
>> > Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
>> > before. It worked fine.
>> >
>> > You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
>> > the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.
>> >
>> > Corky Scott
>> >
>> > _____
>> >
>> > From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
>> > [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bret
>> > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:02 PM
>> > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
>> > Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for
>> > laminating stems?
>> >
>> > I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the
>> > fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems.
>> > Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a
>> > stiff brush?
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >------------------------------------
>> >
>> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> James Marco,
>> 302 Mary Lane,
>> Ithaca, NY 14850
>> 607-273-9132
>>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

Charles & Dana Scott

Yes, any epoxy or fiberglass resin of any type can be thickened with various substances. Corky Scott _____ From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com

Message 9 of 26
, Nov 3, 2010

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Yes, any epoxy or fiberglass resin of any type can be thickened with various
substances.

Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West
Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for
wetting the fiberglass?

Bret

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Charles & Dana Scott

Oh, T-88. That is a structural epoxy, often used in wooden aircraft construction. You are correct it is pretty thick when mixed, but it can still bleed out

Message 10 of 26
, Nov 3, 2010

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Oh, T-88. That is a structural epoxy, often used in wooden aircraft
construction. You are correct it is pretty thick when mixed, but it can
still bleed out of joints if they are compressed. Typically most joints
when using T-88 are not compressed too much, or too much epoxy squeezes out.
I've used T-88 for laminating stems and still mixed in a thickener to make
it even more thick than it is normally.

But the type of epoxy used for wetting out fiberglass is much more thin that
T-88, hence the need for a lot of thickener, so that it does not run.

Maybe I confused the issue. Up until now, I have been using a product by
System Three called T-88 for laminations. This is a structural epoxy that is
two-parts that are mixed in equal amounts. The result is a strong,
waterproof bond that dries to an amber hue.

My question was what others have used for laminations. I have heard that
others were simply using West Systems 105 resin and the hardener for
laminations. While I like using the West epoxy for the fiberglass work I was
not sure if the 105 resin would provide the structural strength necessary
for stem laminations. I appreciate your emphasis on using a thickening agent
such as wood dust in order to keep from starving the joint.

What I enjoy most about this forum is the ability to hear alternative views
and different ways of doing things.

Bret

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

James D. Marco

Hi all, I finally got some planing done on the cedar for Nimble Weed II. Baby sitting has really put a serious crimp in my work time. Down to 1 day per week

Message 11 of 26
, Nov 4, 2010

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Hi all,
I finally got some planing done on the cedar for Nimble Weed II.
Baby sitting has really put a serious crimp in my work time. Down to 1
day per week out in the shop...
Anyway, the shop is very small, 16'x16', so I had a lot of clean up
to do. Rather than toss out the scraps I rebuilt my band saw to get it
ready for cutting the strips, adding a larger table with provisions for
extensions. Between getting the shop cleaned up and the rebuild, it has
taken 3 weeks...WOW.
I cut the rough 1x12-14' down to 1x6's. The bandsaw cuts out
about 1/16 of wood (actually a hair less...like 7/128" or a thin pencil
line less.) Soo, I am planning 4 strips per inch at 3/16. This is a slight
increase over the first Nimble Weed (5/32.) But, because of the
increased overall rounding, I am planning to cut the edges off the strips
more during fairing.
I planed the rough cedar siding 1x6 down to a bit more than 3/4"
...25/32" to clean it and remove any cupping before slicing strips and
gunnels.
That's about where I am... as I baby sit another day. Hopefully,
I can finalize the station layouts today...
My thoughts only . . .
jdm

By my calculations, I will need 56 strips to
cover the hull.

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi All, This past weekend I got about 12 hours in on the boat. What I accomplished: Band saw set up, ripped strips, solid cedar gunnels, handles, thwarts, seat

Message 12 of 26
, Nov 10, 2010

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Hi All,
This past weekend I got about 12 hours in on the boat.
What I accomplished:
Band saw set up, ripped strips, solid cedar gunnels, handles, thwarts,
seat and yoke rough cut. (60 strips were cut, 3 had a small check in them.)
Tear down saw and start form.
New stems (longer boat) by 1-1/2"
New stations at #1, #5 and # 6
strong back cleaned and laid out, stems, #1 and #2 stations installed

Upon building the strongback, I re-evaluated Nimble Weed I.
Some minor changes:
I lengthened the stems somewhat and rounded the nose so there was
a 45 degree angle as it meets the water line: 3-1/2". The 3 degree bow angle
of the first boat soaked up considerable damage on the NFCT from submerged
rocks (many) and three blow downs. By adding in rounded bow I hope to
minimize the effects of the impacts. The down side is I loose hull length at the waterline by about 2". Since the boat was lengthened by 18", this was an
acceptable trade off. It also shortened the stem slightly. On Nimble Weed I,
this area was very fine and could stand to be slightly shortened.
Station #3 was pushed back from 12" to 13" spacing. This is where hull
transitions from the stem to the center hull, proper. This reduces the water entry
of the stem sections yielding a bit finer entry while maintaining the hull length
at the water line. Between the rounded stem, and the increased rocker (from a
4" waterline to 3-1/2 waterline at the bow) the reduction of width here maintains
about the same (slightly less:~2%) frontal stem entry to the water at the same
distance as the original Nimble Weed I. Being short boats, the Nimble Weed's
tend to be somewhat bulbous(for buoyancy) in this area to meet the center hull
area. I didn't want any more, and the slight decrease is a good thing. This is
where the maximum wake will(and does on NW I) occur. At high speeds,
a wake develops in this area (4-5 knots,) bleeding energy. It will happen,
again.
Station #4 was also pushed back from 12" to 13" to complete the
transition from stem to center hull. Between #3 and #4 is where the boat
transitions from parting water (pushing it aside/pushing it down) to a more or
less even flow around the hull curves. All rocker stops by the time the water gets
here. The parting friction of the water stops here (~95% of it anyway.) The
concern here is a smooth flow of water, ie reduction of eddies/vortices.
#5 and #6 are the center hull sections. The largest cross section of
the hull shows up here. (NW I is about 26-3/4" wide at #6, NW II is 25-1/2"
between the two #6 stations.) Both of these sections were recut as new
stations for NW II. A flatter, oval hull was used with sharper chines. Also, the
flare angle was changed in the center from 3 degrees(NW I) to about 5
degrees of flare for NW II. This increases the hull water friction slightly, but
the overall 10" increase in center length should increase efficiency, about
canceling each other. The somewhat flatter oval bottom will increase overall
initial stability but decrease secondary stability. The additional flare should
offset the decrease in secondary stability somewhat. NW I had a LOT of
secondary stability. The small decrease in this (flatter hull, harder chines)
is easily acceptable. Since these changes were more than 1/4" compared
to NW I's stations, they were re cut. They were also reduced from NW I's
wider design beam of 26-3/4" to 25-1/2" to maintain the same strength
characteristics of the boat. I also increased the center shear from 10" to
10-1/4" offsetting the buoyancy pushed to the center from adding the rocker.
(This boat is once again new, so I am not playing with decreasing
the center rocker to stress the outer hull skin. I may do this when lining
up the forms, adding some negative rocker in the center. Then, adding
a few layers of tape to #5 and #6 to build these out a bit. Squeezing it
back should eliminate the negative center rocker, stressing the outer
skin. But, on thinking about this Saturday while working on the stems,
I think it will compress the wood, and not achieve the amount of stress
on the outside skin I need to reach pre stressed strengths. A good case
for using high density strips like oak or walnut on the boat. Still a little
may help. I may yet try it.)
In summary, NW II should have very similar characteristics to NW I.
Longer and as good or better maneuverability. More stable for casual use.
OK, efficiency for wilderness tripping, lake paddling. Not a good boat for
Class II rapids but manageable. A slightly increased payload of 260
pounds over the 240 pounds for NW I, despite the increased rocker.
A double paddle design for my daughter.
I have a dentist appointment this morning, soo, no baby sitting today.
I hope to get the form built and lined up. Maybe a few strips added after
checking the new stations if all goes well?
My thoughts only . . .
jdm

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi All, I ran into a bit of a snag with the boat. The number 4 station does not quite line up properly with #3 (from Nimble Weed I) and #5 (recut for Nimble

Message 13 of 26
, Nov 11, 2010

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Hi All,
I ran into a bit of a snag with the boat. The number 4 station does
not quite line up properly with #3 (from Nimble Weed I) and #5 (recut for
Nimble Weed II.) I have to decide on whether to cut 5 down a little (about
1/2") to insure an even lay of the strips or recut #4 larger to compensate.
Cutting down #5 will reduce buoyancy slightly (about 8-10 pounds.)
Increasing the size of #4 will increase frontal area slightly reducing
performance slightly...
???
My thoughts only . . .
jdm

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi All, OK. I decided to recut #4. This will add a little to the buoyancy, not too much (5-6 pounds) but will also increase the frontal area. Since I increased

Message 14 of 26
, Nov 11, 2010

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Hi All,
OK. I decided to recut #4. This will add a little to the buoyancy,
not too much (5-6 pounds) but will also increase the frontal area.
Since I increased the stem length, I can afford the slight performance
degradation.
My thoughts only . . .
jdm
At 06:16 AM 11/11/2010, you wrote:

>Hi All,
> I ran into a bit of a snag with the boat. The number 4 station does
>not quite line up properly with #3 (from Nimble Weed I) and #5 (recut for
>Nimble Weed II.) I have to decide on whether to cut 5 down a little (about
>1/2") to insure an even lay of the strips or recut #4 larger to compensate.
>Cutting down #5 will reduce buoyancy slightly (about 8-10 pounds.)
>Increasing the size of #4 will increase frontal area slightly reducing
>performance slightly...
> ???
> My thoughts only . . .
> jdm
>
>James Marco,
>302 Mary Lane,
>Ithaca, NY 14850
>607-273-9132
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi All, Stripping of Nimble Weed II is nearing completion. Again, the tight curves forced a bubble in a couple strips. These were removed. Rather than

Message 15 of 26
, Nov 22, 2010

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Hi All,
Stripping of Nimble Weed II is nearing completion. Again, the
tight curves forced a bubble in a couple strips. These were removed.
Rather than cheaters, I did the majority of the hull bottom from about
a 2" waterline onward, simply following the strips. Slow going, since
I can really only get 2-3 days per week in the shop. I have about 34
hours into stripping, but that also includes laminating the thwarts and
seat back. The removable yoke worked well with the first boat, soo I
am retaining it.
The seat back has more curve and a little more complexity to
it. (Nimble Weed I had a 1-1/2" radius for the seat.) This was laminated
to form 2" over 16" with a shorter 2" flatter section for the center of the
back. I clamped it to a door way and leaned on it a bit...seems much
better. However, the 2" thick laminate is way too thick. It is quite stiff.
I will need to fine this down some. . .probably about 1-1 /4" would have
been better. I didn't figure on the additional strength of the laminate.
The other thwarts were laminated 1" x 13/16". These have a milder
upward radius. About 1" over the 24" of the thwarts length. This will make
the boat harder to load onto a vehicle, but will also add some structure to
the spray decks. Water will roll off to the sides a bit more. The first. boat
would build up a puddle on the front spray deck after about 45 minutes of
paddling. If I can minimize this by changing the thwarts, I will. It will also
make the front thwart/footrest placement a bit too high I am afraid. I may
have to add a couple small blocks for this.
Also, I am planning a seat in this one. I think a 1-1/2" front tapering
back to about 3/4" will keep your butt out of the bilge water. I used a 1 -1/2"
life vest for a seat in Nimble Weed. This worked OK. But I often opened
one wing up to give me a seat back cushion. I will allow for it on this boat.
The taper will make some concession to comfort, while I am at it. I may
use cane for this...light and strong, but, it requires a frame...heavy.
jdm

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi All, OK. I finished stripping and pulling the staples from the new boat. I also trimmed the stems. That was it. Getting ready for fairing...sharpened my 4

Message 16 of 26
, Nov 23, 2010

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Hi All,
OK. I finished stripping and pulling the staples from the
new boat. I also trimmed the stems. That was it. Getting ready
for fairing...sharpened my 4 block planes and a couple smaller
smoothing planes. I pulled a hook on a couple scrapers, but
they don't work that well on softwood. I knocked the glue off the
laminates (three thwarts, one seat back.)
Has anyone tried to make a seat frame out of scrap
strips from the boat hull? I have had good results with a larger
barn repair, laminating 6 syp 2x10 to make up a broken 8-3/4x9"
beam (tree damage.) I was thinking to plane the strips down to
about an 1/8" thick (carefully, the planer is not real good with
small stuff, but I just sharpened it...) and using 9 layers,
laminating up a seat frame out of cedar. Then using some
nylon web for the seat.
Baby sitting has really cut into my work time. . .well, play
time??
My thoughts only . . .
jdm

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi all, I finished fairing and filling. I got a scratch coat of epoxy painted on. Several air bubbles, but these will sand clean. Easier to do it now, because

Message 17 of 26
, Nov 27, 2010

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Hi all,
I finished fairing and filling. I got a scratch coat of epoxy
painted on. Several air bubbles, but these will sand clean. Easier
to do it now, because it is nearly impossible to fill them after the
glass is on. I got the first layer of glass over the stems. Standard
6oz cloth, satin cloth is a bit difficult to wrap around. A 6" strip
should cover the worst of any wear damage to the hull. Coupled
with 1/8" nylon rope skid plates, this should leave the stems in pretty
good shape for a light weight boat.
No work today. The kids will be over.
My thoughts only . . .
jdm

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi all, I managed to get a whole day of work on the boat! WOW! Anyway, I got the outer hull sanded clean, tapered the glass on the stems, and washed the boat

Message 18 of 26
, Nov 30, 2010

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Hi all,
I managed to get a whole day of work on the boat! WOW!
Anyway, I got the outer hull sanded clean, tapered the glass on
the stems, and washed the boat off with acetone. Then I put a
layer of 6oz glass on the outer hull. Looks good so far. A couple
trowel marks to clean up, and some sanding will be needed on
the stems. But, I can trim the glass and flip the boat to work on
the inside. I only have enough satin cloth for one layer, so, I
decided to put it on the inside.
I stressed the hull open at each station. Depending on the
station, anywhere between 1/2" and 1-1/2". After I get the inner hull
sanded, I will once again squeeze the boat about 2-3" after applying
the glass. After releasing the clamps, this *should* stress both the
outer and inner skins, resulting in a stiffer, stronger hull. In the past,
an occasional bit of damage has occurred on rocks and downed
trees, etc. I have noticed that the result was often cracked strips.
Assuming that the strips are weaker than the glass, pre-stressing
the skins should also help with overall skin strength. Stiffness, of
course, adds to the efficiency of the boat. A good example of stressed
skin stuff we are so fond of ;-)
Corky mentioned oil canning. I hope to avoid this by seat and
seat back placement. Two ribs will be made as seat supports in
this boat too, since it has a flatter bottom than Nimble Weed I. This
should minimize the effect of oil canning.
My thoughts only . . .
jdm

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi all, I managed to get the glass trimmed and the interior sanded. I painted a scratch coat of epoxy on the inside too. The boat picked up the extra width

Message 19 of 26
, Dec 4, 2010

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Hi all,
I managed to get the glass trimmed and the interior sanded.
I painted a scratch coat of epoxy on the inside too.
The boat picked up the extra width from pushing out each station
pretty well. I am reading about 2-1/2" over design spec. After some light
sanding, I will add the stem and inner glass squeezing the boat back.
This part will be easier, too. The stressed skins should result in a stronger
and stiffer boat.
I will also add a couple floatation chambers, bow and stern. These will
cover the mess I make of the inner stems and add some floatation. I have the
triangular shaped pieces leftover from trimming the boat and several 12-14"
pieces of strips leftover. Not exactly ultra-light, but the little extra will help with
safety and help with overall stiffness, besides covering my poor looking inner
stems. (glass covers it, but I KNOW it is there.) Thinking about it, I can taper
the gunnels down, front and rear, offsetting some of the weight. Still hoping
to come in about 24# at 13'6" even with the added weight.
My thoughts only . . .
jdm

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi all, OK, I got the interior done, sanded and glassed. I was working on gunnels. The router (of course, I would never do this) splintered the wood a bit and

Message 20 of 26
, Dec 7, 2010

0 Attachment

Hi all,
OK, I got the interior done, sanded and glassed. I was working on
gunnels. The router (of course, I would never do this) splintered the wood
a bit and had to abandon the laminated gunnels...again. Anyway, this was
the answer to bubbling: inner, outer, glue, oak strip, oak strip, glue, outer
and inner. All were lightly clamped together every 8"...no bubbles.
Routing went poorly though. Apparently there was a grain mis-match
between the oak and cedar...it splintered, broke the strip and let the bearing
ride into the wood, ruining one gunnel. Soo, I think this was a fluke, it
happens sometimes even with climb cutting to remove a lot of material,
first. Corse, it could also be that the router bit was not the sharpest it has
ever been. Anyway, I recut the two gunnels after milling the under coves.
Then tapered then from 3/4" to about 1/2" over 6'. I did this on the back
side. I did the same on the inner gunnel, but routed this with a 3/8 under and
1/4" over. After sanding, this should leave a good oval piece. I will also notch
the thwarts/seat-back with the 3/8" route to make a good solid fit, at 3/8"
below the shear. (The thwarts have a rounded arc to them.) Soo, I should be
able to drop a screw from the top of the cove, through the inner gunwale and
into the thwart just fine.
Why all the fuss? Well, in the past, I have found that water can be
turned easier than simply rounding over a 5/8" gunnel. Soo, the 1/2" cove
will deflect water better. Important with a 11" stem shear and a fully loaded
boat. I am not sure if I need both, though. I will still need the spray decks
for when my daughter happens to submerge the stems (heavy waves or
current, for example.) But every little bit of weight helps, too. Drilling for a
3" SS screw, off center because of the cove, will be facilitated by dropping
the thwart 3/8". Just easier when putting things together. Probably being
too fussy to save the 3oz...
My thoughts only . . .
jdm

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

Charles & Dana Scott

If you can find some lacquer thinner, or acetate and soak the bit in a glass of that, it will allow you to clean off the bit nicely. Just don t breath the

Message 21 of 26
, Dec 7, 2010

0 Attachment

If you can find some lacquer thinner, or acetate and soak the bit in a glass
of that, it will allow you to clean off the bit nicely. Just don't breath
the fumes.

Once it's clean, you can gently file or sand the edge to improve it's
sharpness.

Hi all,
OK, I got the interior done, sanded and glassed. I was working on
gunnels. The router (of course, I would never do this) splintered the wood
a bit and had to abandon the laminated gunnels...again. Anyway, this was
the answer to bubbling: inner, outer, glue, oak strip, oak strip, glue,
outer
and inner. All were lightly clamped together every 8"...no bubbles.
Routing went poorly though. Apparently there was a grain mis-match
between the oak and cedar...it splintered, broke the strip and let the
bearing
ride into the wood, ruining one gunnel. Soo, I think this was a fluke, it
happens sometimes even with climb cutting to remove a lot of material,
first. Corse, it could also be that the router bit was not the sharpest it
has
ever been. My thoughts only . . .
jdm

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

James D. Marco

Corky, Yeah, I have a gallon of acetone. But the splinters went through most of the cedar, besides breaking the strip. Not really worth salvaging. Thanks for

Message 22 of 26
, Dec 7, 2010

0 Attachment

Corky,
Yeah, I have a gallon of acetone. But the splinters went through
most of the cedar, besides breaking the strip. Not really worth salvaging.
Thanks for the thought, though.
jdm
At 03:58 PM 12/7/2010, you wrote:

>If you can find some lacquer thinner, or acetate and soak the bit in a glass
>of that, it will allow you to clean off the bit nicely. Just don't breath
>the fumes.
>
>
>
>Once it's clean, you can gently file or sand the edge to improve it's
>sharpness.
>
>
>
>Corky Scott

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi all, Thanks again, Corky! The gunnels were installed on Saturday. I came down with a cold Saturday night so not much work got done. (I dislike winter

Message 23 of 26
, Dec 14, 2010

0 Attachment

Hi all,
Thanks again, Corky!
The gunnels were installed on Saturday. I came down with a cold
Saturday night so not much work got done. (I dislike winter weather!)
Anyway, Feeling a bit better this morning so I thought I would do another
update.
Gunnels, inner gunwale and outer gunwale were installed. Planed
and tapered to match the boat. (About 1/2"x1/2"(stems) to 13/16"x13/16"
at the center. Screw holes were filled, bow and stern "gaps" were filled.
Thwarts were laid out, handles were laminated.
Working on the seat...

My shop heater blew out and I had to run to get one.
Anyway, not a lot of work, but some anyway.
My thoughts only. . .
jdm

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

James D. Marco

Hi all, All of the wood work on the boat is now done. Sanding is done. Down to painting it...not done. Unfortunately, I have baby sitting duties again. Doesn t

Message 24 of 26
, Dec 22, 2010

0 Attachment

Hi all,
All of the wood work on the boat is now done. Sanding is done. Down to painting it...not done.
Unfortunately, I have baby sitting duties again. Doesn't look like I will be quite done by Christmas... My wife is busy with other things, soo she cannot make the
spray decks, either. Total work time was 165 hours.
But, at least I have something to give my daughter...
Starting plans for the next boat... A lighter version ...

My thoughts only . . .
jdm

At 04:28 AM 12/14/2010, you wrote:

>Hi all,
> Thanks again, Corky!
> The gunnels were installed on Saturday. I came down with a cold
>Saturday night so not much work got done. (I dislike winter weather!)
>Anyway, Feeling a bit better this morning so I thought I would do another
>update.
> Gunnels, inner gunwale and outer gunwale were installed. Planed
>and tapered to match the boat. (About 1/2"x1/2"(stems) to 13/16"x13/16"
>at the center. Screw holes were filled, bow and stern "gaps" were filled.
> Thwarts were laid out, handles were laminated.
> Working on the seat...
>
> My shop heater blew out and I had to run to get one.
> Anyway, not a lot of work, but some anyway.
> My thoughts only. . .
> jdm
>
>
>
>James Marco,
>302 Mary Lane,
>Ithaca, NY 14850
>607-273-9132
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

Charles & Dana Scott

Really? Lighter than the last one? I thought that one was so light you could lift it with one hand. Corky _____ From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com

Message 25 of 26
, Dec 22, 2010

0 Attachment

Really? Lighter than the last one? I thought that one was so light you
could lift it with one hand.

Hi all,
All of the wood work on the boat is now done. Sanding is done. Down to
painting it...not done.
Unfortunately, I have baby sitting duties again. Doesn't look like I will be
quite done by Christmas... My wife is busy with other things, soo she cannot
make the
spray decks, either. Total work time was 165 hours.
But, at least I have something to give my daughter...
Starting plans for the next boat... A lighter version ...

My thoughts only . . .
jdm

At 04:28 AM 12/14/2010, you wrote:

>Hi all,
> Thanks again, Corky!
> The gunnels were installed on Saturday. I came down with a cold
>Saturday night so not much work got done. (I dislike winter weather!)
>Anyway, Feeling a bit better this morning so I thought I would do another
>update.
> Gunnels, inner gunwale and outer gunwale were installed. Planed
>and tapered to match the boat. (About 1/2"x1/2"(stems) to 13/16"x13/16"
>at the center. Screw holes were filled, bow and stern "gaps" were filled.
> Thwarts were laid out, handles were laminated.
> Working on the seat...
>
> My shop heater blew out and I had to run to get one.
> Anyway, not a lot of work, but some anyway.
> My thoughts only. . .
> jdm
>
>
>
>James Marco,
>302 Mary Lane,
>Ithaca, NY 14850
>607-273-9132
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

James D. Marco

Corky, Yeah. Nimble Weed I was pretty light. 21 pounds including spray decks. (Not including paddle and life vest.) Nimble Weed II is a foot larger. It is at

Message 26 of 26
, Dec 22, 2010

0 Attachment

Corky,
Yeah. Nimble Weed I was pretty light. 21 pounds including spray decks.
(Not including paddle and life vest.)
Nimble Weed II is a foot larger. It is at 22 pounds now, but, I have not
made the spray decks nor completed painting yet. It will finish around 24-25
pounds when I am done, I am afraid. Heavier than I would like.
I will make another Nimble Weed II, this time shooting for light weight
rather than safety. The longer length will better accommodate my wife (who is
a bit lighter than me, but also more paranoid of the boat.) This time I will get
the 3.1oz Satin weave cloth for less epoxy weight. Still shooting for the magic
17#. (The lightest I know of at that length with the same durability.)
I was thinking I could use the same strips (5/32) as the last build up to
the bilge. Then drop to 1/16" strips for the side walls. Rather than use the 3.1oz
glass on the inside, I would get some 2oz, and try that. I had tapered the
gunnels from 3/4" to 1/2". The next boat will be 3/8x5/8 stock. Anyway, The plan
is to cut back those things that are well overbuilt.
The skin stressing seemed to work well. The hull is much stiffer
than Nimble Weed I, and it is also flatter, less strongly ovaled. This could just
be a product of the 6oz glass, too. But, Nimble Weed I had two layers on the
bottom. I did not need two layers on Nimble Weed II. If anything, there is *more*
glass on NW I. Shooting for 17#. I will see how close I can get. Just thinking
about it right now....
jdm

jdm
At 02:07 PM 12/22/2010, you wrote:

>Really? Lighter than the last one? I thought that one was so light you
>could lift it with one hand.
>
>
>
>Corky
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James D. Marco
>Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:57 AM
>To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Nimble Weed II...continued
>
>
>
>
>
>Hi all,
>All of the wood work on the boat is now done. Sanding is done. Down to
>painting it...not done.
>Unfortunately, I have baby sitting duties again. Doesn't look like I will be
>quite done by Christmas... My wife is busy with other things, soo she cannot
>make the
>spray decks, either. Total work time was 165 hours.
>But, at least I have something to give my daughter...
>Starting plans for the next boat... A lighter version ...
>
>My thoughts only . . .
>jdm
>
>At 04:28 AM 12/14/2010, you wrote:
>>Hi all,
>> Thanks again, Corky!
>> The gunnels were installed on Saturday. I came down with a cold
>>Saturday night so not much work got done. (I dislike winter weather!)
>>Anyway, Feeling a bit better this morning so I thought I would do another
>>update.
>> Gunnels, inner gunwale and outer gunwale were installed. Planed
>>and tapered to match the boat. (About 1/2"x1/2"(stems) to 13/16"x13/16"
>>at the center. Screw holes were filled, bow and stern "gaps" were filled.
>> Thwarts were laid out, handles were laminated.
>> Working on the seat...
>>
>> My shop heater blew out and I had to run to get one.
>> Anyway, not a lot of work, but some anyway.
>> My thoughts only. . .
>> jdm
>>
>>
>>
>>James Marco,
>>302 Mary Lane,
>>Ithaca, NY 14850
>>607-273-9132
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>James Marco,
>302 Mary Lane,
>Ithaca, NY 14850
>607-273-9132
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

James Marco,
302 Mary Lane,
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-273-9132

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