How many Kindles could be bought with the next years budget? What about bulk cost savings? Year 3 you buy them books. The money is going to someone who is creating wealth. That means tax revenue. That means jobs.

A library is a cost sink, and its services can be condensed, or provided elsewhere.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Borders obviously went bankrupt because of its union employees.

Strawman. It's obvious you will defend your position to the end. It also is why your arguments will get less and less rational. The reason the crying is getting so loud is because government/union workers are the last to sacrifice. Too long they thought themselves exempt. Sorry shit is hitting the fan, and this time at the table your being asked to give back.

I mean think about the last time a union/public employee went into collective bargaining and had to give back? Only very recently has this been the case. 90% of the time it was up to management and ultimately the stakeholder to give in/sacrifice.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

One of the most (pick one: ridiculous, incoherent, infuriating) things about the Madison union protests is their absurd equation of themselves with Middle Eastern freedom fighters.

You've seen the signs..."Wisconsin is the Egypt of the U.S." or "Wisconsin democracy 1848-2011 RIP"

They're right about one thing: both issues involve:

change vs status quo...

or "the will of the people" and the democratic process vs. entrenched special interests.

But in Wisconsin, the status quo is public unions business as usual, and the "change" is the needed reforms.

In Wisconsin, "the will of the people" is represented by the duly elected Governor and the Republican legislative bodies who are doing exactly what they said they would do in the campaign....while the entrenched special interests of the public unions are the ones analogous to the tyrants clinging to unjustified power.

The analogy is a stretch, to be sure...but I'm not the one who made it in the first place...just the one showing what an Orwellian inversion of reality it is.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

It's NHB'd. I defend hs right to roll that way. Which is a lot less restrictive than my public library's stupid internet usage policies. bada bing

This librarian doesn't want to lose his job. Like EW says, no one wants to give up money. I get that.

And Ziner is right. People are going to have to get used to user fees and stop going appoplectic when their sacred cow gets gored.

We are broke.

No no, don't misunderstand me. I have no problem with him saying what he said, and I like that dude. It just seemed like an exceedingly angry response to a rather even keel post. It was kind of weird.

"So far you're just showing your contempt for people you think you are better than."

I mean, where the hell did that come from? I just thought it was strange is all.

Everyone has their hot-button irrational issue. Guess we found GHSP's. :-)

Dude must be a librarian who doesn't want to lose his gig. I get it. It's a sweet gig when you think about it.

It's just that there can be no denying that community public libraries are the equivalent of public Blockbuster stores now. 30 years ago, they were indespensible. But new media and inexpensive and easily available media has changed that. The very fact that you actualy COULD give away to everyone a free Kindle within 2 years if you eliminate the Library's operating budget in his locale is pretty awesome. I was just sort of F'ing around. Didn't believe it was actually possible. But if it is that easy, someone should run on that at the county level.

And I don't care who y'are, you can aford a $ .99 redbox rental once / week.

I can never find the book I want to read at my public library branch, and it's a palace. Only reason I go there is they leased space to the best deli between C-town and Pittsburgh. Smartest thing they ever did, but Kravitz hardly needs the public dole or space.

Ziner wrote:This is exactly how things work though. He clearly uses the library and wants everyone else to fund his library. Everything at the library can easily be purchased on the open market, but shit if you only pay 1/500000th of it why the hell would you want to do that. That is the issue with cutting. This isn't to single him out. People who use National Parks all the time certainly don't want funding cut for that, people who collect SS don't want their benefits to be lessened, people who use public transportation don't want funding for that to be taken away because their costs would go up. The end of the line is near, things must change. We are broke.

On and average day, 251,000 people visit Ohio's public libraries according to the State Library of Ohio. Ohio's per-capita library visits per year (6.9) leads the nation. On a daily basis Ohioans clearly show that they do not consider libraries obsolete.

Last November, 30 of 38 local library levies passed. Communities across Ohio proved their appreciation for libraries and show they do not consider libraries obsolete based on those results.

As of last September, the Cleveland Public Library system's circulation had increased 17% and library visits had increased 12% over the previous 24 months. This is common, as library usage generally increases in inverse proporation to the state of the economy. In times of fiscal crisis, Ohioans have proven they consider their libraries even more valuable and less obsolete.

There's a difference between funding cuts and claiming something is obsolete. Libraries are clearly not considered obsolete based on usage or levy support around Ohio.

Now cuts, that's a whole different story. The Ohio Library Council has told libraries in Ohio to anticipate 15% cuts in state funding this year. I feel that's optimistic. I have nothing other than a general feeling to stake my claim on, so for now we'll go with the 15%. Two years ago Ohio's state library funding was slashed by around 20%. At my library (yes, I work in one, but have been a library user since third grade and don't need to be employed at a library to understand their value) a 15% reduction in state funds will equate to a loss of approximately $260K based on our state funding for the year. We'll figure out a way to continue to operate just like we did the last time.

So, yes, libaries have been making due with less. We'll make due with even more less once the second half of this year rolls around, I'm convinced of that. State library funding for Ohio has been fairly static since the turn of the century. Meanwhile usage just keeps going up, up, up.

jb wrote:Just because a ham sammich could check out books and refile them doesn't mean I think any less of library employees.

We actually tried that at my library. The ham sammich got a lot of crumbs in the books, which attracted insects. We were worried about a bedbug infestation, so ended that experiment quickly. The ham sammich also left traces of ham and cheese on the shelves when putting things away. Patrons weren't too happy about picking up the latest James Patterson book and finding their hand covered in goo.

jb wrote:When a library levvy fails, do you know what those morons do in Mahoning County? They lesson the already bankeresque hours. They don't do a damn thing more with less. They don't even try. They have that same F U attitude you do on this subject.

It appears that Mahoning County is filled with morons, so I can't fathom anything people there would do. I also know that that area of the state is extremely poor, so providing less with less doesn't shock me at all.

Not sure why you, who declares library employees ham sammiches and want to trash libraries and claim the same services can be provided by a Kindle, thinks I have a FU attitude. But if I do, you can attribute it to the fact that you declare library employees ham sammiches and want to trash libraries and claim the same services can be provided by a Kindle.

BTW, my library is open more hours per week than the branch of my bank right up the street is open. We were even open yesterday. They weren't.

Orenthal wrote:

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Borders obviously went bankrupt because of its union employees.

Strawman. It's obvious you will defend your position to the end. It also is why your arguments will get less and less rational. The reason the crying is getting so loud is because government/union workers are the last to sacrifice. Too long they thought themselves exempt. Sorry shit is hitting the fan, and this time at the table your being asked to give back.I mean think about the last time a union/public employee went into collective bargaining and had to give back? Only very recently has this been the case. 90% of the time it was up to management and ultimately the stakeholder to give in/sacrifice.

Strawman? The thread title says "Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

And your post is uninformed.

In 2008, Ohio's state employees saved the state $250 million with concessions through collective bargaining. Recently Toledo's police force saved that city $3 million with concessions through collective bargaining. Libraries across the state took cuts two years ago which resulted in layoffs and cuts in both salaries and benefits for remaining workers. Teachers have been taking hits for years and years. So have prison workers.

We'll be taking hits again this year. The state faces an $8 billion deficit. No getting around it. So there will be cuts. In Wisconsin the head of the state's largest union said they will accept the wage and benefit cuts the governor wants. Of course, the governor does not actually want wage and benefit cuts, so he rejected the compromise. His goal (as is the game plan for Kasich and others) is to destroy the unions' power.

Kasich in 2009:During a speech before Ashtabula County Republicans in March 2009, Kasich talked about the need to "break the back of organized labor in the schools," according to the Ashtabula Star Beacon. He did not back away from that quote last week, saying as he pushes ideas to change schools he has often clashed with teachers unions, who have "smeared my record and distorted it

Kasich in 2010:He did not back away from that quote last week, saying as he pushes ideas to change schools he has often clashed with teachers unions, who have "smeared my record and distorted it."

motherscratcher wrote:No no, don't misunderstand me. I have no problem with him saying what he said, and I like that dude. It just seemed like an exceedingly angry response to a rather even keel post. It was kind of weird."So far you're just showing your contempt for people you think you are better than."I mean, where the hell did that come from? I just thought it was strange is all.

I didn't find someone saying libraries are obsolete and could be replaced with a Kindle as even keel. I found it uninformed and stupid. So do the hundreds of thousands of library users in this state.

jb wrote:The very fact that you actualy COULD give away to everyone a free Kindle within 2 years if you eliminate the Library's operating budget in his locale is pretty awesome. I was just sort of F'ing around. Didn't believe it was actually possible. But if it is that easy, someone should run on that at the county level.

Yes, I know. Your entire "argument" is F'ing around. I'm not even sure why I wasted a couple minutes trying to provide a logical counterpoint to something so stupid. Of course, dividing the cost of a Kindle into our budget doesn't take into effect any distribution, maintenance, and other costs. And you'd have to hope that iPads don't drive Kindles out of business, or make many downloadable items proprietary. It might also be a little bit harder to get the community to support a levy that would give away Kindles to 23,000 people vs. build a library that will benefit anyone who walks in for years to come.

And right there is waaaay too much of a response to your Kindle tripe.

Maybe we should make a poll of all the morons on this board who think a branch library system is a complete waste of dwindling resources. 99% of the, "Wasted Tax Dollars", vote will be done by an unbiased third party. The, 1 vote in favor, by the Librarian.

Borders has no union and went bankrupt. That fact is a strawman in a debate about a branch system being a waste of tax dollars. The fact Border's brick and mortar business can be seen as a parallel must be lost in the ether of your supreme intellect.

My post also contained the qualifier, recently, and last I checked they still go to that table every freaking year. IOW's whatever they have given back to this point, is of an immaterial %. Sort of like that daily library attendance figure.

Again you can't get any more biased.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:On and average day, 251,000 people visit Ohio's public libraries according to the State Library of Ohio. Ohio's per-capita library visits per year (6.9) leads the nation. On a daily basis Ohioans clearly show that they do not consider libraries obsolete.

Last November, 30 of 38 local library levies passed. Communities across Ohio proved their appreciation for libraries and show they do not consider libraries obsolete based on those results.

As of last September, the Cleveland Public Library system's circulation had increased 17% and library visits had increased 12% over the previous 24 months. This is common, as library usage generally increases in inverse proporation to the state of the economy. In times of fiscal crisis, Ohioans have proven they consider their libraries even more valuable and less obsolete.

Just because people go doesn't mean it is any less of a waste of money.

Make the library be pay per use and see how many show up. People go to the library to check out books they are too cheap to buy, movies they are too cheap to rent and use the internet all at taxpayers expense.

I am sorry to be cruel, and I am sure you love your job and are good at it. Bet you have the dewey decimal system down pat However, using tax dollars for them is stupid. I vote for kindles for all. Maybe they need to develop state-wide electronic libraries.

Hey, jackweed, I get more action in a week than you've had in your entire life. I've got houses in L.A., Paris and Vail. In each one, a 70 inch plasma screen. So I suggest you wipe that stupid smile off your face before I come over there and SMACK it off! You feeling strong, my friend? Call libraries pointless one more time.

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Let's do that online poll of the morons in this thread. Those things always tell the tale.

Question one,

Will Cam Newton be a successful pro quarterback?

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

On and average day, 251,000 people visit Ohio's public libraries according to the State Library of Ohio

So every day, over 2% of the state's population goes to a community library. 2 of every 100. Monday through Sunday. Every. Damn. Day. So over the course of 365 days a year that's over 91 million visits. IOW, 29% of the US population visits an Ohio community library each year -- obviously not the literal people, but in comparable traffic numbers.

Walk or drive right now to your branch (or look up from your desk). Tell me what part of that 91 million you see right now.

I find that extraordinarily hard to believe by any objective measure. Love to see the methodology on that. Fortunately for all of us, you'll be able to find that and share it.

The rest? Lots of questionable opinions couched as "facts" intersperced with insults.

How much do you think netflix pays employees to sort and refile DVD's as part of the tangible media enterprise? Do they need MLS degrees and professional wages? How is the WORLD do they make that work?!?

Look, here's your new model; if you want an intelligent discussion.

Close the branches except for one per county in large counties, maybe corsotia of three to five counties in less populated areas. And don't choose the most expensive neoclassical mega-structure in the hollowed out downtown. Pick the most trafficed and efficient site. Open up Ohio Link to everyone and require a $ 10 / year participation user fee to check out as many books as possible and defray mailing costs. Anyone who begs off $ 10 / year as too costly is a liar. Even the most pathetic crack addicetd 99er can afford a ten spot if this is important to them. Ask for more in the way of donations. Surely, one who goes to a library often would give more becasue it is so important to them. At the county center, employ a reference librarian or three available via phone or web chat in a call center approach. Close everything else. Sell the properties to establish an endowment.

Libraries were once the only game in town to distribute literature easily to create an educated, active, citizenry. Those days have long gone. So libraries have tried to morph into senior centers, cyber cafes, community centers, mini-YMCA's, you name it, in order to justify ocntinuing existance.

Those things already exist, most of them in better formats. And if they are non-profit likely they are struggling as well. So much redundancy. So much waste. Ziner's idea of leveraging school libraries, especially to account for any remaining digital divide, is outstanding. And given Jim Rhodes' successful initiative years ago of placing a college or branch within a 30 minute drive of every Ohioan, we're not even talking about vst college/university resources largely unused by the public.

Like it or not, the US citizenry on the whole has had it with taxes. Globalization unfortunately means those who used to foot the bill don't have to do so, and in the hard world of profit over all, they don't. There are whole agencies operating on helping companies relocated corporeate entity to other nations. It is what it is. An anacronism that isn't affordable.

But this thread is a great example of survivalism of a group of public employees and an emotional insistance that change is impossible, when in fact, change came long ago in the rest of the world. Amazon, the internet, streaming video, napster & iTunes long ago inflicted a termial cancer into the public library system as we knew it. It is inevitable.

I was under the impression that many school districts had closed or effectively killed off their school libraries with the reasoning that public libraries are there to fill the void. Not sure that using school libraries would even work, and that's before you even factor in access to the building, which I would think is limited now with all of the safety issues concerned.

Full disclosure, I am also a librarian, but I don't work at a public library. JB, I don't know what you mean by "professional" salaries for people who have an MLS and work in the public libraries, but that's hilarious. They make public schoolteachers look like millionaires. The higher ups such as library directors are an exception to this, of course. They are well paid. But it's my understanding that most of the people you see at a library are circulation assistants and the like, very low paid. You do certainly need an MLS to catalog books properly and a reference librarian should have an MLS. That might be 2-3 professional librarians per branch, and the rest of the employees are likely minimum wage type workers. Those MLS librarians in those branches are probably making somewhere in the $30-$40K range, though, if they're lucky.

Also, at least here, the college and university libraries are very much used by the public. I imagine it's the same in Ohio. The library systems also all work together to collectively own and circulate items, so that every library in the state does not have to each purchase their own copies of certain items. There is actually great efficiency in libraries because of this - and you can also factor in the sharing of online resources and databases, and collective purchasing power there. One thing that I think is very valuable about public libraries is their new function helping people find and apply for jobs, and write resumes. I am willing to bet that the public libraries do this more efficiently (in dollar terms) than any other public agency could manage.

Given what I deal with daily on the college level - teaching information literacy to college students, helping them understand how to navigate all of the online information that's out there, teaching them what a citation is, etc., the last thing we need to do is close public libraries. This generation is stupid enough, and now they're getting overloaded with mostly unreliable internet information. I don't know about the paid model for libraries, but that might be a workable solution, so long as there were exceptions. As much as you don't want to believe it, there are certain people who cannot afford that $10. Another misconception out there is that "everything is online" - very much untrue.

I actually disagree with your idea about having one central library in each county. Seems to me that it would be more effective to close down the big hulking central libraries and have very small branches spread out (I've seen them in shopping centers, strip malls, etc.). Have a central warehouse for materials and let people request them.

Libraries still have a purpose. Like everyone else, they need to evolve. I tend to err on the side of a population that has access to information. We're not a third world country, yet.

jb wrote:Look, here's your new model; if you want an intelligent discussion.

Still waiting for that.

You're throwing around insults and condescension like SD right now. If you're trying to convince anyone of your view, you're doing a terrible job.

Right now it seems like the only intelligent discussion for you would be total agreement. Any other post is uninformed and worse.

If you want to explain why JB's idea is a bad one, I'm all ears (or eyes I guess). I'm ready to be convinced because, like I said in my first post here, the idea of libraries going away makes me a sad panda. I don't want that.

Damn him for having his Americans for Prosperity group, that is so damn unamerican. Maybe he should be like a foreign born rich dude and pump money in to Moveon.org or Center for American Progress that would make him a great guy who only wants the best for Americans.

The thing that cracks me up about these guys who pretend like this is the ultimate gotcha is that there are quite a few people that are perfectly fine with breaking up the public unions. If government is as good as liberals act like it is, why do they need protection from it. No matter how many times liberals refer to it as a fringe lunatic opinion, it doesnt change the fact that there are more than a few people that don't believe it to be so.

Like I said at the beginning, private unions vs corporation... have at it, whatever you can get you get

Public unions jobs are to take more of our tax dollars, forgive me for looking at them as not looking out for my best interests.

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Over/under on when Walker resigns? Should we start a poll?

Resigns? Dude isnt resigning over this. Who should resign are the pathetic democratic representatives who ran and hid from democracy and are holding up legislative business in another state. They should call special elections for each of their district and replace them.

I think that certain portions of unions are almost all but obsolete in this country, thanks due in part to labor laws passed in this country for the past 100 or so years.

No longer do we have to worry about 8 year old kids working in factories, or people having to work 16 hour days and getting paid 8 cents an hour.

All of those were the original points of having a union in the first place.

We've "progressed" past all this as a country.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

gotribe31 wrote:"Dealt a stunning blow?" What exactly did he say to the guy living in his mom's basement that he hasn't said to a mainstream news outlet already? But yeah, he's going to resign because of that.

The guy who's in danger of losing his job is the staffer who put the bogus call through, but that's beside the point. The one thing the call proved is that Walker doesn't know from the Koch brothers...the guys the loony left would have you believe are his puppeteers.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

ProgRocker? Na, but too bad. This wouldn't be any different then lefty wanting to go ape on CEO's? A GOP Gov. wants to break the unions? OMG, really? Remember how the guy that busted ACORN was duplicitous and entrapment? I'm sure you had no problem with that...

FD - I don't mind gonzo entrapment way of getting information. It's sophmorish, but it works.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

There's something slightly hilarious about the left running around with their hair on fire over the Koch brothers' money corrupting politics...especially when many of the people squawking the loudest...like mmfa.com...are doing it on the payroll of the billionaire leftist Soros.

But the point is that the Koch brothers' money....the $1 million donated to the Republican Governors Association, as quoted in the article linked above....is pocket change compared top what Big Labor...and their biggest single contributor....teachers unions....gives to influence legislation and candidates they favor....in many cases for their preferred answer to most any issue...raising taxes:

If you think it’s far-fetched to suggest that a teachers union could play the role of political kingmaker, think again. The largest political campaign spender in America is not a megacorporation, such as Wal-Mart, Microsoft, or ExxonMobil. It isn’t an industry association, like the American Bankers Association or the National Association of Realtors. It’s not even a labor federation, like the AFL-CIO. If you combine the campaign spending of all those entities it does not match the amount spent by the National Education Association, the public-sector labor union that represents some 2.3 million K–12 public school teachers and nearly a million education support workers (bus drivers, custodians, food service employees), retirees, and college student members. NEA members alone make up more than half of union members working for local governments, by far the most unionized segment of the U.S. economy.

The Center for Responsive Politics and the National Institute on Money in State Politics joined forces last year to produce the first comprehensive database of political campaign spending at both the state and national levels. The results should open the eyes of policymakers and educators alike, as well as those involved in the wider world of domestic politics. In the 2007–08 election cycle, total spending on state and federal campaigns, political parties, and ballot measures exceeded $5.8 billion. The first-place NEA spent more than $56.3 million, $12.5 million ahead of the second-place group. That’s not all. The American Federation of Teachers (AFT), the smaller of the two national professional education unions, ranked 25th in campaign spending, with almost $12 million, while NEA/AFT collaborative campaigns spent an additional $3.4 million, enough to earn the rank of 123rd. All told, the two national teachers unions distributed $71.7 million on candidate and issue campaigns from California to Florida, Massachusetts to South Dakota. Millions more went to policy research to support the unions’ agenda.

---

At least the Koch brothers donate their own money. Teachers unions extract dues from all their members...regardless of their political leanings...and spend it (98.5%) on Democrats and left-leaning causes.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Dan, I'd love for you to give examples of the "Left-Leaning" causes you are referring to.

As far as endorsing Dems...the OEA (and I'm sure the NEA) vetts all sides equally before elections, the only problem is that the Repubs generally don't come a calling which in turn ebcourages the OEA to back the one's that do. (Mostly Dems)

In the past the OEA HAS backed candidates from both parties...yes I know, many more, Dems than Repubs, but still, it isn't a foregone conclusion that the money goes straight to Democrat pockets.

Besides, LOOK WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE REPUBS DO GET CONTROL!! (See SB-5) Can you blame the OEA/NEA?

I could care less about the Koch brothers, but Walker and Kasich are still

comish wrote:As far as endorsing Dems...the OEA (and I'm sure the NEA) vetts all sides equally before elections, the only problem is that the Repubs generally don't come a calling which in turn ebcourages the OEA to back the one's that do. (Mostly Dems)

Yes, for years, the Dems have indeed "come a calling", and now Ohio's State Teachers Retirement System has $40 billion in unfunded liabilities. The unions and the public officials their heavy contributions have put into power sit down at the bargaining table and negotiate how they will spend the taxpayers' money. Those taxpayers are now demanding a seat at the table, and it's about time.

comish wrote:In the past the OEA HAS backed candidates from both parties...yes I know, many more, Dems than Repubs, but still, it isn't a foregone conclusion that the money goes straight to Democrat pockets.

Right, just 98% of it.

comish wrote:Besides, LOOK WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE REPUBS DO GET CONTROL!! (See SB-5) Can you blame the OEA/NEA?

Yes, I do see what happens. They do what they promised they would do during their campaigns, and which got them elected....which is to try to slow down the fiscal freight train before it goes over the cliff. I can blame the OEA/NEA for putting the selfish interests of a small minority of citizens and workers over the "general welfare".

Last edited by danwismar on Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Be wary of talking unfunded mandates...NCLB and its re-issue was the mother of those!

The tax payer DOES have a seat at the bargaining table in the form of the Board's negotiating team that they have a hand in (albeit indirectly) electing. All the board team has to say to the union is "NO!"

I've been at that table, Dan, many times. They are good at that "No" word, trust me. Which is why I don't understand the need to blow it up. Besides, there are plenty of other issues at bargaining that are solved that have VERY LITTLE to do with the tax payers money. Open discourse between the two sides goes a long way to solve those issues for the best interests of the students and the community.

Be wary of talking unfunded mandates...NCLB and its re-issue was the mother of those!

The tax payer DOES have a seat at the bargaining table in the form of the Board's negotiating team that they have a hand in (albeit indirectly) electing. All the board team has to say to the union is "NO!"

I've been at that table, Dan, many times. They are good at that "No" word, trust me. Which is why I don't understand the need to blow it up. Besides, there are plenty of other issues at bargaining that are solved that have VERY LITTLE to do with the tax payers money. Open discourse between the two sides goes a long way to solve those issues for the best interests of the students and the community.

Fleebaggers...nice

As I said upthread, when I am king, the Dept of Education will go away. But unfunded mandates and unfunded liabilities aren't the same thing. We're talking about future retiree pension and benefit costs, which dwarf the costs that NCLB imposes. I'll defer to your greater knowledge of the issue as far as being "at the table". BTW, I'm not an advocate of "blowing up" the unions.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Just got back from the 5th thru 12th grade choir concert. I would of rather gone yachting on the coast of Somalia....anyways.

I graduated HS 25 years ago. According to the choir program, the guy that was the high school principal when I was in 9th grade is now the Assistant Superintendent for Business Services. The guy who was the principal when I was in 10th thru 12 is now the Director or Curriculum and Instruction. The Home Ec teacher is now the HS principal. With 30 plus years in the school system each, how much jack do you think those cats are pulling down? 100K plus? Ultimate example of dum dums just hanging around to get paid on my property taxes.

IMO a key point, and this needs to happen for the eventual result to be truly rock solid.

Opponents of the legislation said they are already planning to fight it with a ballot challenge this fall. If it gathers enough signatures, the challenge would give voters a direct say on the measure in November.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"