Sunday, April 06, 2008

English Democrat Posters Rile Scots

These hard-hitting posters are due to be launched by the English Democrat candidate for London Mayor tomorrow ... in Holyrood! The Scottish newspapers are up in arms with the Sunday Mail calling them "pathetic" and "ridiculous". Political posters are a bit pointless unless they go a bit over the top as they would be ignored if all they said was "Vote English Democrat", so from that viewpoint they have worked. However, will they be covered by the London media? I doubt it - and that's where the votes are. I don't know how many poster boards the EngDems have bought up, but the only way they will have an effect is if they are covered by the media.

I understand why the Scottish media is up in arms, but they have real difficulty arguing with the substance of the point the posters are making - that the English continue to subsidise Scotland to an unacceptable degree. We can argue about the exact figures all we like - and the ones mentioned in the posters seem higher than I have seen quoted before - but the issue needs to be addressed.

There is another point though. I think I am right in saying that compared to other parts of England, London gets a huge subsidy courtesy of the taxpayer. Perhaps the citizens of Kent and Yorkshire will start demanding their money back too. I have no problems with poorer areas of the country receiving more largesse from the taxpayer if their needs warrant it. What I and many others (in all parties) object to is an automatic subsidy to a country with its own Parliament and tax raising powers (which it chooses not to use). It's a good thing that the Barnett Formula is at least being reviewed. I look forward to the day when it is abolished. That's not being anti-Scottish, it's standing up for fairness and equity of funding.

vote english. hmmm. that's bordering on the xenophobic in a city as cosmopolitan as london. it's a dog whistle. why do you give the EDs so much time and space, iain, are you thinking of defecting? they're a fringe of a fringe.

It's about time that teh barnett formula was scrapped (after all it was dreamed up by old Labour hack 'Lord' Joel Barnett when Chief Secretary to the Treeasury I wonder what he had to do for his peerage??) and the Scots told in plain terms to fund their own expenditure through use of the tax-raising power their 'Parliament' has got. First on the list could be paying for their £300m parliament building, the bill for which the notoriously thrifty Scots managed to palm off on the rest of us.

As an Anglo-Scot myself, living in England, I'm all for the chippy Scots being given independence within a UK federation and told to stand on their own two fiscal feet. That way, we'd get rid of Brown, Darling, Browne (who he? ed)and myriad others of the current tartanocracy cluttering up Westminster.

I believe that although London gets some of the higher public expenditure per capita (particularly in a few deprived boroughs) overall London is the biggest net contributor to the UK economy (ergo to the ungrateful Celts)

Yes, Iain, it gets difficult to go regional. Kent and Sussex, say, probably do pay more in and get less out than London, but what is the basis of their wealth? It's the fact that so many of their people commute into London and earn lots of money. London is the source of their wealth.

As you say, the central point is the automatic entitlement to more money, esp in the context of Scotland having its own domestic government with its own tax-varying powers. They can spend more on health and education if they want to, but they don't.

Those posters are pathetic; no wonder the Scottish press are criticial. They are rather puerile and vaguely xenophobic.

You may agree with the point made behind the posters, Iain, (although London gets a higher level of spending per head than Scotland) but surely you can realise they are justly criticised?

"after all it was dreamed up by old Labour hack 'Lord' Joel Barnett when Chief Secretary to the Treeasury I wonder what he had to do for his peerage??"

I don't know, but he's on record as saying that he only put the formula in place on a temporary basis, never dreamed that it would be continued by successive governments, and would be all for it's scrapping.

I am really disappointed with the EDs after these idiotic posters. I did have high hopes for this party, it seemed to have no far right links, unlike many of the other 'English Nationalist' parties, and from what I heard it had the potential to develop into a sensible centre-right nationalist party.

I envisaged something similar to the SNP or Plaid (apart from the left wing bits), fighting on a platform of civic nationalism and exploring how England could be better if the union was dissolved. Personally, I disagree, but I did see room for a party there.

However, these posters? No, no, no. Imagine the uproar if Salmond put out posters like this. It just makes the party look like a joke.

What about Northern Ireland, then? That gets far more than Scotland, and doesn't have oil. And Iain is quite right that London gets substantially more per head than every other region of England. The facts are clearly set out here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_Formula

The figures given there show that Scotland gets £219 p.a. per head more than London. Given how much tax we all pay, that's hardly worth making a song and dance about.

The only real argument against equal parliaments in England, Scotland and Wales, with some federal joint action on common issues, is the survival of the Labour regime in Westminster, or any chance of it ever gaining office again. No Scotland - no Labour.

Equal parliaments would not end the pooling of natural resources, or divide the British Isles vis a vis other countries. But it would end the current regime, and any future unreformed Labour regime that has gained votes by posing as the centre left.

It is not just the people of Scotland, or just the people of England that want to reconstitute relations within the federated United Kingdom. It is all of us who want a proper centre left, rather than the undemocratic, trade union and extreme left dominated, peculiarly-led Labour party.

"Ridicluous" doesn't seem to me to be the Scottish media going OTT. It shows how much this is purely a media campaign divorced from real people (like so much political activity generally) that these posters are being put up in Scotland where Londoners will only see them if the media are interested.

London is wealthier than the rest of the country not because the people are particularly wonderful but because the great & good, capital, HQs of major businesses etc naturally gravitate to where power is. Virtually every capital in the world is richer than its hinterland. Move the UK capital to Machester (for which a god case economically, geographically & even demographically could be made) & London would collapse.

Now that, really does smack of racism. What are you saying? It sounds to me that you are saying that only white people can be English? In a recent by-election in London, the English Democrats candidate was a seikh - he was also English. He is standing for election this time to the London Assembly. He doesn't have a problem calling himself a Londoner and an Englishman - but you obviously do - what's your problem?

Also, for all you sensitive design critics out there, you really don't appear to know much about political advertising campaigns, do you? I mean, let's talk about some real dross of previous political advertising - let's start with the 'DEMON EYES' poster. If I remember rightly, there's that nice churchgoer, Tony Blair smiling away - and do'ya know what? Some adman has cut out a pair of eyes from Old Beelzebub himself and crudely pasted them over Tony's own mincers. And for good measure, some kid has got out his red felt tip pens and coloured in the eyes - for added effect... And which political party sanctioned such a campaign? Which deep thinking Bloomsbury set of intellectuals thought it up? Was it a mad, fringe, single issue type of party, or was it the Tories?

So let's not go all watery-eyed over this. Let's not start believing that political advertising campaigns are ethical, fair or truthful - because they are not. In the turbulent seas of politics - the 3 main parties have lead the way in the production of crass, objectionable, untruthful advertising. They are a means to an end - at least the English Democrats posters highlight an outrageous governmental act of democratic emasculation and fiscal exclusion worthy of any banana republic. People have routinely died in England and in London for the want of drugs freely available to everyone 300 miles up the M1. My kids cannot go to Uni' because they cannot afford the 3 grand a year fees - fees that are soon to be free for all in Scotland - including foreign EU students - except, (obviously) English students studying there. My old Mum is in her mid eighties - and pretty soon she will have to start to think about residential care. Well obviously, she will have to sell her house to finance it - but in Scotland, the state pays for it. My blood pressure prescriptions have just gone up to £7:10p - free in Wales, frozen in N.I. going down in Scotland and free in 3 years time. My council tax has gone up by a huge amount yet again, frozen and declining in Scotland. 3 million houses about to built - only in England, plus all the Eco Towns on green field sites, plus ALL of the new breed of 'safe - honest' nuclear power stations - and all thanks to the new English only planning bill which will make everything 'simpler' - all local opposition will be outlawed - and unelected regional quangos will be able to order local councils to build whatever they want built...... (Oh yes, almost forgot - the new English only planning bill will get nodded through, thanks to the reliable claque of Scottish and Welsh new Labour MPs - well, they wouldn't want all this industrial dross built on their green and pleasant, would they? Much better to build them in the most densely populated country in Europe. Oh, almost forgot - we'll be taking all the nuclear waste as well, hooray!)

Iain, instead of the super sensitive bleatings be some of your more 'right-on' commenters, maybe they should feel more outraged about the institututionalised racism being practised by New Labour upon the people of the largest country of the Union. (that's the union which 'shares' everything, right?).

All I know is because I am English I am being marginalised and discriminated against - and it really does have to stop - and if that means shoving up a poster with a 'hey Jimmy' bloke in a kilt to do it then tough.....

The problem is that any expression of the English nation is suppressed ruthlessly by Labour. Why ? Because they lose their legitimacy and fear losing power.

But there really is a nation called England, and it gets a very raw deal from the current government.

Those posters are no worse than the SNP banging on about "their" oil.

Quite honestly London could do without much of the government located there. It would be far cheaper to have them located in say Liverpool (perhaps the most British of all the UK's cities). Plenty of space up there.

London could then carry on with the business of earning enough money to pay for the disastrous policies of socialism and the welfare state in parts of the country that return Labour MPs, and Labour successfully keeps so downtrodden to ensure they always will vote Labour.

The poorest part of the country (Cornwall) subsidises the rest of the country to the tune of £300 million per year. There are no Labour MPs in Cornwall so the government siphons it off to London and the North East. The average HOUSEHOLD wage in Cornwall is £18,000. (Which makes a mockery of your assertion that £60K for MPs isn't very much.) The average house price is £250,000. And every year it gets poorer because the government takes out more in taxes than it puts back in.

For a generally fair-minded man Iain, you have a blind spot regarding the UK's finances. There is ample evidence that Scotland is NOT "being subsidised " by English taxpayers, but you choose to ignore it.

Why don't you publish these other figures, rather than the Government lies. You don't believe other Govt. figures on crime, unemployment, inflation, so why do you trust implicitly the "Scottish subsidy" ones?

You are right and the Scots should be annoyed. The EDP seem to be taking on the Spin practices of Labour.

London is the third highest regional recipient of public funding per person(Northern Ireland 1st, Scotland 2nd). Given it is a far larger region in terms of population it gets a far larger portion of the overall public budget.

Labour have not discriminated against London (whereas in large swathes of the rest of England they have) simply because it is run by Labour and it is a critical election battleground. To lose it in Parliamentary terms will likely mean they will lose power.

As you say if the EDP put these adverts out in the South East or East of England (who are the lowest recipients of public funding) then it would have some credibility. But to do so in London makes these adverts pure lies. The EDP are not credible and thiese posters a pure propagandist nonsense.

The reality is that excluding London, the Labour Government have used public funding to discriminate against areas that vote Conservative. The greater % Conservative MP's there are in a region other than London, the less money the region gets per person.

It is typical of Labour to use their time in Government to divide the country for cynical self-serving political reasons (or so they thought). This one seems to be coming back to bite them from all quarters though, particularly Scotland. As ever, Labour are incompetent.

If you want the spreadsheet that proves these statements I can send it to you.

PS Yorkshire & Humberside gets slightly less than average expenditure. Less than London or Scotland but far more than the South East, East Midlands, East and South West who take the brunt of this Labour fuelled discrimination.

First, by international law most of the oil is English, not Scottish. The exclusive economic zone would follow the national border if the countries split, which runs distinctly north-east, so bringing most of he oil fields into the English area.

More importantly the tax subsidy of Scotland by England is far greater than the entire government oil revenue.

So yes, we'll swap. They keep the revenue from Scottish oil, we'll keep the English tax take.

Josh

I notice yo don't actually say what is wrong with the case expressed on the posters. Does that mean you can't find rational fault, and can only rant against it?

Spot on on the point of the fact that the Barnett Formulae is Obsolete and Opaque

But say the Poster had been making an issue of Govt Spending on Ethnic Minorities and used the phrase Black or Molsem instead of Scots or Scottish? If that is unacceptable, why is attacking England's largest minoirty acceptable?

By the way since when has the determination of Central Government Spending in the Constituent parts of the UK been the responsibility of the Mayor of London? Bit rich when you consider that London is the biggest subsidy Junkie in Britain. Spending per head is there is greater than anywhere else and that includes Northern Ireland though I accept that includes the wages and inflation proof the parasitical civil servants in the various Departmental HQs

I can't work out why the posters are being launched in Holyrood unless there's some strategy by the EDP to try and drive wavering Scottish voters into the arms of the SNP as Scottish independence is the only way that there will ever be an English Parliament.

"...the English continue to subsidise Scotland to an unacceptable degree..."

Yes Iain. That's why Labour, the Conservatives and the Lib-Dems are such fanatic unionists. We cost so much they just have to keep us.

And hatfieldgirl, Labour got a 43 seat overall majority in England in the 2005 General Election. Labour could still win in a separate England. Don't blame the Scots for Labour.

First, by international law most of the oil is English, not Scottish. The exclusive economic zone would follow the national border if the countries split, which runs distinctly north-east, so bringing most of he oil fields into the English area."

Ah that old lie.

Care to post a link showing that international law bases it on the "angle" of the border from where it starts? Because it would certainly create a fascinating line for Germany since it's border snakes around central Europe before ending up at the opposite end of the Keil canal.

Because this link clearly shows that the international law of EEZ boundaries is based on equidistance from coast. Which makes far more sense than basing it on a point of coast - the Solway Firth - that has nothing to do with the North Sea.

The map on p29 is the best visual example.

"More importantly the tax subsidy of Scotland by England is far greater than the entire government oil revenue."

A question for Iain, did you see these posters and just decide to blog about it?Or did someone draw your attention to them in the hope that you would do your duty to further ramp up this nasty and unwarranted anti Scots rhetoric?

If Scotland is part of the UK, it is UK oil. If Scotland want independence, then that’s a different matter but until then, they should be treated as just a part of the UK. The City of London doesn’t get more spent on it because it generates more cash than anywhere else and the same rules should be applied to Scotland.

An indisputable fact however is Scotland gets 25% more public money than England. If taxation remains the same, then welfare provisions in more deserving (needy) areas of England and Wales have to be reigned back in order to pay for the higher spending in Scotland. This means these areas are subsidising the higher spending in Scotland by way of reduced services.

Why? I’ve absolutely no idea but no party dares correct it because it would be political suicide. The Tories have been wiped out already and Labour are on the ropes after the SNP’s successes last year… so this unfair level of spending is set to continue. To criticise those that object to this unfair system is not anti-Scottish.

"vote english. hmmm. that's bordering on the xenophobic in a city as cosmopolitan as london."Everyone living in London is, by virtue of living here, English. Whether they were born in Scotland, South Africa or Jihadistan is irrelevant - they are still getting shafted as much as someone born here. Even the Scots in London (and there are bucket loads of them) should be paying attention because they live here, they are the victims of the Scottish Raj's hatred of England.

I think splashitallover and some of the other commenters have a phobia of their own - anglophobia.

This is an evil racist slogan. It is lies. In the seventies the government claimed scotland was subsidised then we found out 20 years later these were lies from the civil servant scum. Why should we take this BS again. How dumb would you have to be to think Scotland is subsidised with the price of oil at the momment. No one with half a brain cell will fall for the trick again. I support the union but we should tell the truth. It is counter productive to lie again as the English stupidly think Scotland is subsidised to the math yourself it i does not make any sense.

oh - and I think the posters are stuipd, self defeating and purile. England and Scotland should divorce on amicable terms and live as good neighbours. This doesn't help and makes English look like slightly-racist scum.

I see someone here has cited "Taxpayers' Alliance figures". Why is this organisation touted as some sort of impartial authority? I was of the opinion that it was a front formed by a number of free market Tories.

On the main topic, as sad as I am to read this subsidy rubbish being spouted again I think I'll just grin and bear it as I watch the dismemberment of the United Kingdom.

The English Democrats are not Xenophobic. But the Barnett formula is annoying alot of ENGLAND including many who are not ethnic English. I.E. The English Democrats represent views from many quarters (and political shades,) in England.

cebr (the centre for economics and business research) has done a fair number of studies on the net flows of cash between London and the rest of the UK and they all show that London subsidises the rest of England as well as the other parts of the UK

i agree with the e.d I am from scotland but live here in England and have done since i was 1 years old and I know my family in Scotland get 90 times more than we do and i think if your true English we should all stick by thier mayoral candidate and get what should be ours so gordi give us back our England or go back to scotland and leave Parliment

"The problem is that any expression of the English nation is suppressed ruthlessly by Labour. Why ? Because they lose their legitimacy and fear losing power."

HATFIELD GIRL SAID

'No Scotland - no Labour'

Aren't the supporters of the ED aware that Labour was elected to power through ENGLISH voters as well as the rest of the UK? Labour have won 3 landslide elections! The Tories lost power in England because England voted them out. The Scots had consistently voted Labour throughout the 80s and, consistently, England voted in the Tories. Hence the saying in Scotland: 'Every time we vote for a Labour government, and every time we get a Tory one'.

Claiming that Labour are desperate to keep the union because they will lose power is daft. If that is the only reason, then why did the Tories refuse to even discuss Scottish devolution for nearly 20 years of government?(read the McCrone report). Surely it would make sense to cut loose such a drain on the economy during economic crisis? They didn't rely on Scotland to stay in power but still refused to allow Scotland any form of self-government, fearing it would break up the union.

Look, when the UK saw sense and got rid of the Tories, they voted en-masse. There is no way that Scotland could vote in a government over English opposition. It is offensive to use the Scots as scapegoats in the way the ED are doing. The way in which they attempt to justify this attack makes it all the more deplorable.

There are many Scots who would prefer not to leave the union, 'but if that is the only way in which self government can be made real, then so be it.' Scotland spent MANY years being denied any say in their own affairs. A very long time. They fought long and hard to change that, good for them. Independence will no doubt follow soon. An achievement to be proud of, not derided.

Unfortunately, outside of politics, England was not paying attention. As usual, it paid no heed to Scotland, thinking it an irrelevance and some English people now feel that they have justifiable grievances owing to the current political climate in Britain (the last 10 years).

It is, however, unfair and childish to target Scotland in the way the ED have been doing and betrays an almost total lack of intelligent debate. Target the union if you must, the architects of which, by the way, were, throughout the centuries, overwhelmingly English, promoting English interests and dominating the world (beginning with the rest of the UK) with the English language and culture.

To say that English culture is now somehow denied is untrue and shows a real lack of engagement with, and understanding of, the genuine political concerns of the population. Laying the blame of this supposed erosion of English culture at Scotland's door simply makes them look ill-informed and gives away their lack of historical understanding both politically and contextually. It's a deliberate attempt to move the focus away from real issues and gain support through extremely negative campaigning. No government-enforced laws have ever been enacted to systematically phase out the English language and culture as far as I am aware. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the other peoples in these islands.

'Self-assertion born of self-distrust; that is a formula for the helpless false consciousness which authoritarian governors prefer in their subjects.'

Those posters are pathetic; no wonder the Scottish press are criticial. They are rather puerile and vaguely xenophobic.

Oh the poor jocks. My heart bleeds! Isnt it funny how us English havent heard one word about the the crap that scottish dominated new labour have been doing to the English...EVER, but as soon as an enemy Englishman prints some posters well, then you lot come out in droves to whine, moan and groan! (I actually think it's a few people, but thats another story)Oh poor you! It shows what you think of yourselves! Which by my estimation is quite a lot. But why?Anyway, you should stop whining and ask yourself WHY these posters exist. Oh yeah but yo'll never do that...'cos you're too #$%^in' arrogant!

What an awful, offenisve and tasteless advert. I have a feeling even the BNP would think twice before launching an ad like this.

Waaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!I think even the BNP would think twice before DELIBERATELY destroying democracy in England.

Tony Blair the scotsman - What an awful, offensive and tasteless advert...FOR SCOTLAND!

The ED's have totally shot themselves in the foot here. Regardless of the arguments they make- which are valid imo - they manage to come across as bitter, nasty little xenophobes.

No they aint! ITS ABOUT TIME WE STARTED TREATING YOU LOT THE SAME WAY YOU TREAT US!

caitlin said... "All I know is because I am English I am being marginalised and discriminated against"

Oh, poor you. I'm crying.

Oh dont cry! Save it for when you have to pay your own way! I know that's a new concept for you, but don't fret, you'll get used to it...maybe! Oh I suppose you'll be crawling around the EUROlanders for money when the Barnett formula scotfree(loading) stops.

oh - and I think the posters are stuipd, self defeating and purile. England and Scotland should divorce on amicable terms and live as good neighbours. This doesn't help and makes English look like slightly-racist scum.

"Slightly racist"? Oh I get it. You mean like your right hand is racist, but your left hand is all pc? Hmmm, I happen to think my certain appendage is that way 'cos it always seems to twitch when the REAL English national anthem is played!

It is, however, unfair and childish to target Scotland in the way the ED have been doing and betrays an almost total lack of intelligent debate.

"Unfair"? "Childish"? "Target scotland"? What are you waffling about? Nobody has targetted scotland. Scotland has made itself the target! Oh I see. You are blaming the English for reacting to immature scottish provocation! How dumb of you. Blaming the victims of discrimination is very amateurish. It betrays an almost total lack of intelligent debate. Can you debate? I doubt it.

No government-enforced laws have ever been enacted to systematically phase out the English language and culture as far as I am aware.

Oh yeah of course it's all a dream.English students are not being made to pay more than other students. English cancer patients are not being denied life saving drugs by N.I.C.E. the scottish dominated new labour invention. English elderly are not really being made to pay for their drug prescriptions whilst scottish elderly dont pay one penny. The Barnett formula doesnt exist. The West lothian question is a myth. Of course the whole thing is rubbish.

And of course I suppose the following new labour mp's arent following govt policy either right?

Derek Wyatt MP Labour, Sittingbourne and Sheppey"I think this would be undue nationalism to have an English National Library"

David Wright MP LabourI do not think there is any desire at present for either a parliament for England

I see no reason to support the creation of a separate English Parliament.

I think splashitallover and some of the other commenters have a phobia of their own - anglophobia.

Exactly mate. Oh and they dont want the world to see wat they are really like! The scotttish dont like to not be the victims!Time to grow up scots, time to grow up. How are you going to maintain independence if you cant even be honest about your behaviour?

You jocks are pathetic,you can dish it out ,but cannot take it,shame on scotland you are absolutely F--king our country up! you dont know what your doing!dont know what your doing! dont know what your doing!get lost the lot of you ######s