My problem is at the solo vs group play shift, going further and further into favoring solo play even in the domain of traditional organized group play (scenarios, dungeons, raids).
Game feels more and more like a solo experience with incidental grouping (that could for all I care be NPCs) for the vast majority of content, with only a diminishing niche remaining that actually requires and promotes cooperation.

I can agree with this.

The continued un-importancing (yes, that's a word for now) is nice for the sake convenience, but bad for the game long-term. And that's because what this genre offers that others don't IS the appeal of reliance on other players for progress.

"Look around you. We're all liars here, and every one of us is better than you" - PB

This is from my personal point of view and I understand that it may not go down well with others.

The term 'Casual' doesn't mean a bad player, it simply means that they don't play the game much or for any real purpose, just for fun. But how much fun can a casual player get out of Warcraft? You get to the level cap, you do scenarios, dungeons, LFR and bgs; Maybe 1 raid a week and perhaps your weekly cap? You're telling me that this person, after achieving all of this and being unable to see any more content for months will continue playing? Do casual players even keep playing the game after they get to level cap and do as said above? .

You see the first line you post says that a casual player doesn't mean bad..but then you go on to say how can a casual player have fun if all they have is lfr....

I raid 4 hours a week on wednesday nights. We are progressing through normals at about 1 progress kill per week, we strive to do good and we cleared t14 normal before 5.2 came out. I have a shiton of fun getting a progress kill and knowing that though I dont raid 3 days or 10+ hours a week I'm still doing relatively competitive raiding for a NORMAL progress oriented guild. No we are not going for hard modes but the normal modes are tough for us and provide the challenge that I use to face when going for hardmode server firsts but had allot more time to invest!

I have been playing since week 1 of vanilla and have loved everystep of it! Now being in my early 30'smarried with a child I apreciate that I can still focus on progress on a shorter scheduel and can still rai with a competent like minded group and not be forced to choose between "hardcore 4 days a week or dungeon 2 tiers back raiding with main's alts on of nights!"

It may not be cutting edge but for a casual player time wise that still takes pride in there performance the game offers so much more challenging yet attainable content than it ever did!

The ideal game would enable you to do group content, with group social interactions, but without onerous obligations or scheduling.

This probably would involve going beyond the guild model, to a more network-like system of social connections, as well as improved automated sytems for detection and discouragement of anti-social behaviors.

Simply enabling everyone to have a journal of their interactions with others, recording who did things well/poorly, and who helped and who was a jerk, would be useful. There's no reason this couldn't be built into the game. It could even be used to mine information on problem players: if many people rate someone as a jerk, maybe GMs could monitor them.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

I know the idea has been kicked around a bunch but I think heroic/normal servers would help immensely. You can have a more grindy/difficult adventure with "heroic" servers and a less grindy with more accessible content on normal servers. If normals are too easy, you can transfer to heroic and vice versa.

Biggest problem I can see (outside of logistically creating these seperate servers) would be driving a bigger wedge between players. Ultimately I think players would get over it, though, but this is more of a pipe dream than a likely solution.

I disagree completely. The community is much much worse off. Have you been in an LFR? Its all trolling, bitching, and afking. Getting groups together back then was no harder than saying LF2M DPS FOR STRAT LIVE!........... That is literally it. Within 10 minutes I could normally find a group. Part of that was having a good reputation, being friendly, and being know for making lots of dungeons groups. This is what I call having a good community.

Nowadays, you know people by how well they troll in trade.. you don't see a problem with this? Pugging has also gone down... why wouldn't it? WoW is in incentive based game... whats a better incentive than sitting in SW/Org, hitting the queue button and waiting for your loots after doing some mediocre dps?

Getting a raid spot was no harder than it is today, probably easier because they had 40 mans instead of 10/25's... or even 20 mans. In BC I was knowwn as a great Pally Tank. I would get tons of whispers about invites logging in, and sometimes even guild invites even though I had one.

What you are obviously missing are different crowds like different things. If you are appealing to one side, you are likely taking from and shunning the other.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire

It took me a month and a half to hit 90. Started with warrior got to the airfield, switched to druid and sent to 89, switched to DK got to 87 and then went to town on my monk. None of those other classes are 90 (but my priest is).

I disagree completely. The community is much much worse off. Have you been in an LFR? Its all trolling, bitching, and afking. Getting groups together back then was no harder than saying LF2M DPS FOR STRAT LIVE!........... That is literally it. Within 10 minutes I could normally find a group. Part of that was having a good reputation, being friendly, and being know for making lots of dungeons groups. This is what I call having a good community.

Nowadays, you know people by how well they troll in trade.. you don't see a problem with this? Pugging has also gone down... why wouldn't it? WoW is in incentive based game... whats a better incentive than sitting in SW/Org, hitting the queue button and waiting for your loots after doing some mediocre dps?

Getting a raid spot was no harder than it is today, probably easier because they had 40 mans instead of 10/25's... or even 20 mans. In BC I was knowwn as a great Pally Tank. I would get tons of whispers about invites logging in, and sometimes even guild invites even though I had one.

What you are obviously missing are different crowds like different things. If you are appealing to one side, you are likely taking from and shunning the other.

The majority of people I see trolling or afk in LFR are normal or heroic raiders who see themselves as above the content. Getting groups was most certainly harder for those outside of the raiding scene prior to the introduction of LFD and LFR. I honestly see no difference in the community as whole now than the community of five or six years ago, the only difference now is that certain groups of people are no longer able to exclude others from certain types of content.

The majority of people I see trolling or afk in LFR are normal or heroic raiders who see themselves as above the content. Getting groups was most certainly harder for those outside of the raiding scene prior to the introduction of LFD and LFR. I honestly see no difference in the community as whole now than the community of five or six years ago, the only difference now is that certain groups of people are no longer able to exclude others from certain types of content.

This.

I know I'm going to be attacked, of course, for saying this but Nostalgia is fucking dangerous.

I PLAYED back then, and it's no different than it was now to be honest.

Hell, with CRZ I find more interaction than I used to, and I've even added a few friends I've met while leveling an alt or something.

Back in the day, the numbers for subscribers were less, so the community was "tighter"..

...But currently, community wise, the game is still thriving.

It's the people find a need to constantly MAKE a reason, just based off one or two observations or "personal experience", that ruin the community.

And, honestly, those who are selfish enough to think THEIR opinion is a fact is what tears this game apart.

It makes those who devote more time than the average person feel like Blizzard turned their backs on them: "Why are you making the game cater to those casual swine when we're here and we love you so very, very much Blizzard? We just want more of your time and attention. WHY!?"

The majority of people I see trolling or afk in LFR are normal or heroic raiders who see themselves as above the content. Getting groups was most certainly harder for those outside of the raiding scene prior to the introduction of LFD and LFR. I honestly see no difference in the community as whole now than the community of five or six years ago, the only difference now is that certain groups of people are no longer able to exclude others from certain types of content.

How do you even know that? How do you know? The majority of them? Do you have a tally mark? Do you armory their toons? Thats a little fishy if you ask me.

Able to exclude others? What are you even talking about?

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire

How do you even know that? How do you know? The majority of them? Do you have a tally mark? Do you armory their toons? Thats a little fishy if you ask me.

Able to exclude others? What are you even talking about?

For starters I do not encounter many trolls or afk players in LFR it is however quite easy to inspect them and see that of those, few, that behave this way they are either incredibly lucky with world boss drops or raiders.

As a self professed "great Pally tank" you would have been able to pick and chose who you grouped with in the past often the people who you decided, for whatever reason, not to group with would not be able to find groups thus they were excluded from the content. With the introduction of LFD and LFR these players were no longer at the mercy of whether or not other players deemed them worthy of running certain content.

I know I'm going to be attacked, of course, for saying this but Nostalgia is fucking dangerous.

I PLAYED back then, and it's no different than it was now to be honest.

Hell, with CRZ I find more interaction than I used to, and I've even added a few friends I've met while leveling an alt or something.

Back in the day, the numbers for subscribers were less, so the community was "tighter"..

...But currently, community wise, the game is still thriving.

It's the people find a need to constantly MAKE a reason, just based off one or two observations or "personal experience", that ruin the community.

And, honestly, those who are selfish enough to think THEIR opinion is a fact is what tears this game apart.

This, and the post quoted in that post are the big points I was trying to make.
I'm just coming back (SoR) after playing EXTREMELY casually in Cata and MoP in the beginning. (different account. I have two as my initial was hacked beyond belief).
I'm starting over, and I pushed a hPally to 80 (my main in Wrath), and I'm not gonna lie. I'm nervous to start the Cata dungeon content (dungeons are key for me.) I'm terrified really, because what if we wipe once because of a mistake I made? I WANT to be a better player. I WANT to be more hardcore, get into raiding, all of that, but everyone is so damn critical, everyone is so damn judgmental. Reading about my spec and the fights isn't how I learn. I need to experience them, and really, if I make a serious mistake, that's gonna fall back me for being bad, even though I'd take all advice and I'm completely open to learning.

My point, essentially, is that this hatred for 'casual' players within the community by the more 'hardcore' players makes it so difficult for those of us that want to break the threshold, and want to move up in the world.

For starters I do not encounter many trolls or afk players in LFR it is however quite easy to inspect them and see that of those, few, that behave this way they are either incredibly lucky with world boss drops or raiders.

As a self professed "great Pally tank" you would have been able to pick and chose who you grouped with in the past often the people who you decided, for whatever reason, not to group with would not be able to find groups thus they were excluded from the content. With the introduction of LFD and LFR these players were no longer at the mercy of whether or not other players deemed them worthy of running certain content.

Are you arguing I shouldn't be allowed to pick who I group with? Even if I did "exclude" others, who are you to pretend like thats wrong, or a bad thing? You know the types of people I excluded back in the day? People that were troublemakers. They deserve to be excluded. Thats what being in a community is all about. Ninjas, drama starters and the like had bad names, because you know, thats unacceptable behavior.

Theres no "mercy" ... if you had half a brain, and were nice, you got in. Its easy as that. If you didn't, well maybe you should change your attitude a little.

Everytime I encounter an afker or someone who dies on purpose, guess what? They are always in LFR gear, no gems, no enchants, and I get them kicked. dying on every bosss attempt within a few seconds is not acceptable. Doing 10k dps isn't either. Putting someone on follow through trash and for half the boss fight isn't either.

Regardless, thats all just anecdotes and personal experience. What went from a self policing server community, went from a barely policed afk fest, where you get carried if you feel like it. You can't look at the numbers and pretend like the bleeding subs are all just the mean old elitist hardcores. If the 1% is the harcores, then the other 99% are the ones leaving. Thats 3 MILLION less subs than glorious Wrath.

You know what I think? This over casualized, over convenienced game will continue down this path, because too many rewards are given too easily. the game has become way too casual centric and it can't hold peoples attention.

SOMEHOW the "horrible elite" TBC had more subs than the utopian casual paradise of MoP or Cata. I don't think itss just because of the order of release date either.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire

Are you arguing I shouldn't be allowed to pick who I group with? Even if I did "exclude" others, who are you to pretend like thats wrong, or a bad thing? You know the types of people I excluded back in the day? People that were troublemakers. They deserve to be excluded. Thats what being in a community is all about. Ninjas, drama starters and the like had bad names, because you know, thats unacceptable behavior.

Theres no "mercy" ... if you had half a brain, and were nice, you got in. Its easy as that. If you didn't, well maybe you should change your attitude a little.

Everytime I encounter an afker or someone who dies on purpose, guess what? They are always in LFR gear, no gems, no enchants, and I get them kicked. dying on every bosss attempt within a few seconds is not acceptable. Doing 10k dps isn't either. Putting someone on follow through trash and for half the boss fight isn't either.

Regardless, thats all just anecdotes and personal experience. What went from a self policing server community, went from a barely policed afk fest, where you get carried if you feel like it. You can't look at the numbers and pretend like the bleeding subs are all just the mean old elitist hardcores. If the 1% is the harcores, then the other 99% are the ones leaving. Thats 3 MILLION less subs than glorious Wrath.

You know what I think? This over casualized, over convenienced game will continue down this path, because too many rewards are given too easily. the game has become way too casual centric and it can't hold peoples attention.

SOMEHOW the "horrible elite" TBC had more subs than the utopian casual paradise of MoP or Cata. I don't think itss just because of the order of release date either.

Not at all. You are free to group with who want. However those who are left out in the cold often give up and never find a group and overall that is bad for the game.

The problem with a self policing server is who polices the police? Often the trouble makers were from the so called server police. I honestly cannot work out what you are trying to say about the sub losses, one of the largest drops was when Cata introduced hard heroics on request from the hardcore players.

It was only at the tail end of Cata that it was casual and WOTLK had higher sub numbers than TBC, throughout WOW's history only a few have ever attempted raiding which suggests that TBC was successful in spite of its hardcore nature not because of it.

Not at all. You are free to group with who want. However those who are left out in the cold often give up and never find a group and overall that is bad for the game.

The problem with a self policing server is who polices the police? Often the trouble makers were from the so called server police. I honestly cannot work out what you are trying to say about the sub losses, one of the largest drops was when Cata introduced hard heroics on request from the hardcore players.

It was only at the tail end of Cata that it was casual and WOTLK had higher sub numbers than TBC, throughout WOW's history only a few have ever attempted raiding which suggests that TBC was successful in spite of its hardcore nature not because of it.

I disagree. I have never read anything that has said only a "few" have "attempted" raiding.

Left out in the cold? Did you even read what I wrote? I don't refuse to play with nice people that just happened to strike a nerve. I refused to play with ninjas, and assholes, why are you arguing for their sake? We would all be in a better game without them. All you have to do is be nice and try hard and no one will bother you. This is little 16 year old me back in Vanilla "Hey I would like to join your guild to raid, I have heard many good things and would love to go to MC!" Well guess what? They gave me a trial raid spot because they liked me and I was nice and tried my best!!!!!!!!!!!!

You must have had a bad server. The trouble makers were always shamed on mine. You ninjad? You got called out in trade and people wouldn't group with you. Super racist? Callled out in trade and no groups. Quit after the first wipe on a boss? Called out. Guild hopper? Called out. Those are all undesirable traits. Back then your choice was transfer, be nice, or leave the game. Thats how it should be.

My comment about sub losses is simple. If MoP were the casual utopia, where are so many casual players quitting? Because that design doesn't hold attention. Its short term. Its so easy, there is nothing to build up to anymore. When each new ToT wing would come out, my LFR group would complete it in the first run, with a few wipes on each boss.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire