House Speaker John Boehner told lawmakers Friday that he plans to resign at the end of October, in a stunning development that comes amid mounting friction with the conservative wing of the party.
He plans to step down as speaker, and resign from Congress.
The 13-term Ohio Republican shocked his GOP caucus early Friday morning when he informed them of his decision in a closed-door session. One lawmaker told Fox News he was "stunned," and that there was "some anger" in the room "against the people who caused this to happen."
The announcement came one day after the high point of Boehner's congressional career, a historic speech by Pope Francis to Congress at Boehner's request. To the backdrop of that day's pageantry, though, Boehner was facing an internal battle in the House GOP caucus over Planned Parenthood funding and threats by some in the conservative wing to challenge his speakership.
Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., said Boehner "just does not want to become the issue. Some people have tried to make him the issue both in Congress and outside."
Conservatives have demanded that any legislation to keep the government operating past Wednesday's midnight deadline strip Planned Parenthood of his funds, a move rejected by more moderate lawmakers.
Boehner took over the speakership in January 2011. The decision to step down was closely held; Fox News is told House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., was only informed of Boehner's decision "one minute" before Boehner told the GOP conference.
McCarthy said in a statement Friday: "He will be missed because there is simply no one else like him. Now is the time for our conference to focus on healing and unifying to face the challenges ahead and always do what is best for the American people."
A Boehner aide noted the speaker's original plan was to serve "only through the end of last year," yet former House GOP leader Eric Cantor's primary loss last year "changed that calculation." But the aide seemed to make clear reference to the internal turmoil.
"Speaker Boehner believes that the first job of any Speaker is to protect this institution and, as we saw yesterday with the Holy Father, it is the one thing that unites and inspires us all," the aide said. "... The Speaker believes putting members through prolonged leadership turmoil would do irreparable damage to the institution."
The aide added: "He is proud of what this majority has accomplished, and his Speakership, but for the good of the Republican Conference and the institution, he will resign the Speakership and his seat in Congress, effective October 30."
The House will need to hold an election to select a new speaker. The last speaker to resign in the middle of a Congress was Jim Wright, D-Texas, amid an ethics scandal in 1989.
Boehner's decision removes the possibility of a damaging vote to strip him of his speakership, a scenario that grew more likely amid the conservative clamor over a shutdown.
While the news Friday roiled Boehner allies, some conservatives welcomed his announcement.
Rep. Tim Huelskamp of Kansas said "it's time for new leadership," and Rep. Tom Massie of Kentucky said the speaker "subverted our Republic."
But more mainstream Republicans said it would be a pyrrhic victory for Tea Party-aligned lawmakers.
"The honor of John Boehner this morning stands in stark contrast to the idiocy of those members who seek to continually divide us," said Rep. David Jolly of Florida.

I guess he's had enough....

Rainmaker

09-25-2015, 05:27 PM

I guess he's had enough....

Good Riddance.

MikeKerriii

09-25-2015, 08:29 PM

I guess he's had enough....

He just decided not to follow the lemmings over the cliff.

garhkal

09-26-2015, 04:25 AM

About bloody time. Now if we could only get Mitch Mcconnell, to do the same.

TJMAC77SP

09-27-2015, 02:59 AM

There are no lemmings to follow. He has faced increasing opposition from within his own party. Much of which I think is unwarranted. He is resigning most likely to avoid the strife an internal fight for leadership would entail.

I think the GOP is their own worst enemy at this point. It reminds me of the election of 1992 when SNL was putting on skits about Dems drawing straws, the loser of which had to run against Bush Sr in light of the first Gulf War and then Clinton ends up winning.

garhkal

09-27-2015, 03:42 AM

Rainmaker.. How can you 'thank' a post but also dislike it??

Bos Mutus

09-27-2015, 04:05 AM

There are no lemmings to follow. He has faced increasing opposition from within his own party. Much of which I think is unwarranted. He is resigning most likely to avoid the strife an internal fight for leadership would entail.

I think the GOP is their own worst enemy at this point. It reminds me of the election of 1992 when SNL was putting on skits about Dems drawing straws, the loser of which had to run against Bush Sr in light of the first Gulf War and then Clinton ends up winning.

I sometimes wonder how long the GOP will allow the Tea Party to consider themselves Republicans....there is a real division there

Mjölnir

09-27-2015, 05:10 AM

I sometimes wonder how long the GOP will allow the Tea Party to consider themselves Republicans....there is a real division there

The Tea Party is far from a formal organization. They lack a central structure or even a fully codified agreement amongst themselves on policy or platform.

In many ways those who identify as part of the 'Tea Party' are to the Republicans what the MoveOn.org folks are to the Democrats: a non-silent minority. They are very vocal, relatively small in number of the overall organization and garner a lot of attention disproportionate to their overall presence. What both have been very effective at doing is influencing the majority of their party based on their ability to influence the narrative through 'volume' vice 'relevance.'

Generally on both right and left, Republican and Democratic sides of the aisle the primaries are a play to the more polarized sections of the party and the general election is more a play to the center.

BT BT

As far as Speaker Boehner resigning, it could be interpreted many ways. Like it or not, the man wasa member of Congress for 25 years & Speaker of the House for five ... nothing to shake a stick at. I imagine at some point it gets tiring and the desire to put ones' family & / or self ahead of the job becomes a factor.

Rainmaker

09-27-2015, 11:58 AM

Rainmaker.. How can you 'thank' a post but also dislike it??

Rainmaker was trying to "like" garhkal's post. But, a case of "old eyes" and a half a bottle of blue sapphire gin got in his way. Nomsayin?

TJMAC77SP

09-27-2015, 12:40 PM

I sometimes wonder how long the GOP will allow the Tea Party to consider themselves Republicans....there is a real division there

Absolutely agree with what the Tea Party has evolved into. As with most issues, they have some valid points but their unwillingness to entertain any other viewpoints or compromises has turned them into what I see as a destructive and exclusionary faction.

MikeKerriii

09-27-2015, 04:56 PM

There are no lemmings to follow. He has faced increasing opposition from within his own party. Much of which I think is unwarranted. He is resigning most likely to avoid the strife an internal fight for leadership would entail.

I think the GOP is their own worst enemy at this point. It reminds me of the election of 1992 when SNL was putting on skits about Dems drawing straws, the loser of which had to run against Bush Sr in light of the first Gulf War and then Clinton ends up winning.

There is a strong tide of lemmings top follow s as the Republican party charges headlong to the right. Icons like Reagan, Ike ,Goldwater and Dirkson have been replaced with loons and if alive to day would be called socialists and RINOs. The Cloth coat Republicans have been replace by red-neck Republicans trying to mimic the Know-nothing party of the 19th Century. When a party get that deeply into requiring ideological; purity it is in trouble, Just as the Democrats were in 1968.

TJMAC77SP

09-27-2015, 06:24 PM

There is a strong tide of lemmings top follow s as the Republican party charges headlong to the right. Icons like Reagan, Ike ,Goldwater and Dirkson have been replaced with loons and if alive to day would be called socialists and RINOs. The Cloth coat Republicans have been replace by red-neck Republicans trying to mimic the Know-nothing party of the 19th Century. When a party get that deeply into requiring ideological; purity it is in trouble, Just as the Democrats were in 1968.

While I appreciate your Google skills this hardly explains away your lemmings dig. The GOP is fractured and that by definition would negate a lemmings analogy. Boehner wants to avoid an internal party fight to retain the Speaker's seat which will simply further fracture the party. Also I am sure you meant Sen. Dirksen and he isn't exactly a good match ideologically with Goldwater who was pretty far right on almost all issues. It is true however that they are party icons.

While it may fit a particular narrative not all GOP members think in lock-step. I sincerely hope a moderate leader or leaders can emerge but painting the party with one large brush is intellectually specious.

MikeKerriii

09-27-2015, 10:09 PM

While I appreciate your Google skills this hardly explains away your lemmings dig. The GOP is fractured and that by definition would negate a lemmings analogy. Boehner wants to avoid an internal party fight to retain the Speaker's seat which will simply further fracture the party. Also I am sure you meant Sen. Dirksen and he isn't exactly a good match ideologically with Goldwater who was pretty far right on almost all issues. It is true however that they are party icons.

While it may fit a particular narrative not all GOP members think in lock-step. I sincerely hope a moderate leader or leaders can emerge but painting the party with one large brush is intellectually specious.

Lemming fits very well becasue there are a lot some republican idiots racing to destroy the Party catering to the large segment of ignorant loonsthat think BS like Obama is a Muslim and was born a Kenya,. The two leading candidates for the Republican nomination are a psychopath and a loon loon that believes that evolution and the Big Bang theory are the works of Satan Any party that so gladly accept idiocy and hate as their [rosary platform can accurately be described as being lemmings. The promoted hate and anger and are not having to deal with the fact that hate and anger is the result that they have to deal with, like lemmings they are self-destructing.

Lemming fits very well becasue there are a lot some republican idiots racing to destroy the Party catering to the large segment of ignorant loonsthat think BS like Obama is a Muslim and was born a Kenya,. The two leading candidates for the Republican nomination are a psychopath and a loon loon that believes that evolution and the Big Bang theory are the works of Satan Any party that so gladly accept idiocy and hate as their [rosary platform can accurately be described as being lemmings. The promoted hate and anger and are not having to deal with the fact that hate and anger is the result that they have to deal with, like lemmings they are self-destructing.

Your very thin lemmings analogy would fit it the GOP were united and following once voice but the problem (as I have stated more than once) is they are anything but united.

You continue to do exactly what you chide the GOP for and seem oblivious to it. You also continue to avoid illustrated issues with your posts. Understandable I suppose but hardly something that garners credibility.

I understand the labeling of Trump as a loon or psychopath (not sure which you are claiming he is) The other leading candidate is Ben Carson. I have never read anything that supports a claim that "evolution and the Big Bang theory are the works of Satan" Sounds far fetched for a neurosurgeon.

MikeKerriii

09-28-2015, 05:22 PM

Your very thin lemmings analogy would fit it the GOP were united and following once voice but the problem (as I have stated more than once) is they are anything but united.

You continue to do exactly what you chide the GOP for and seem oblivious to it. You also continue to avoid illustrated issues with your posts. Understandable I suppose but hardly something that garners credibility.

I understand the labeling of Trump as a loon or psychopath (not sure which you are claiming he is) The other leading candidate is Ben Carson. I have never read anything that supports a claim that "evolution and the Big Bang theory are the works of Satan" Sounds far fetched for a neurosurgeon.

It might be far fetched for a neurosurgeon but it fits perfectly for a neurosurgeon who is also a loon
Evolution
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPqq6fr2CF4
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ben-carson-darwin-satan-evolution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVKBlPZiGM

from a liberal site so you might want to ignore everything but Carson's own voice showing that he is a fool,.

Said Carson: “I personally believe that this theory that Darwin came up with was something that was encouraged by the adversary”

That should be enough evidence and from a variety of sources, But his second debate response to Trump on vaccinations should have been enough to make you realize that the once great doctor is currently a loon. Either a loon or someone that is prepared to let children die to avoid losing a few votes from loons.

It might be far fetched for a neurosurgeon but it fits perfectly for a neurosurgeon who is also a loon
Evolution
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPqq6fr2CF4
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ben-carson-darwin-satan-evolution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVKBlPZiGM

from a liberal site so you might want to ignore everything but Carson's own voice showing that he is a fool,.

Said Carson: “I personally believe that this theory that Darwin came up with was something that was encouraged by the adversary”

That should be enough evidence and from a variety of sources, But his second debate response to Trump on vaccinations should have been enough to make you realize that the once great doctor is currently a loon. Either a loon or someone that is prepared to let children die to avoid losing a few votes from loons.

Well, I have to admit I had no idea he was so strongly in the fundamentalist Christian camp. The few times I have heard him speak he said nothing along these lines and was quite moderate.

As for his position on vaccinations I think you might be confused there.

"A lot of people are put off when they hear the word 'government force,' and perhaps there's a better way to put these things," Carson said. "But the fact of the matter is, studies have shown us over the course of time that the benefit-to-risk ratio for vaccination is way in the favor of doing it as opposed to not doing it."

So obviously it is unfair hyperbole to claim he is "prepared to let children die to avoid losing a few votes from".

TJMAC77SP

09-28-2015, 09:16 PM

One would think, huh...

I am very surprised by his position on Creationism vs Evolution. Weird for a man of science.

As for the Big Bang Theory. It is a contested theory among the scientists themselves. I am troubled if his attacking the BBT is a way to defend Creationism though. Being a Seventh Day Adventist explains the basis but you would think his education and experience would have muted those beliefs somewhere along the line.

I need to read more objective stuff from him.

Bos Mutus

09-28-2015, 09:36 PM

I am very surprised by his position on Creationism vs Evolution. Weird for a man of science.

As for the Big Bang Theory. It is a contested theory among the scientists themselves. I am troubled if his attacking the BBT is a way to defend Creationism though. Being a Seventh Day Adventist explains the basis but you would think his education and experience would have muted those beliefs somewhere along the line.

I need to read more objective stuff from him.

I don't know how much it matters whether or not a surgeon believes in evolution or the big bang...not sure that it matters if a President does, either, except for the influence they might have on education standards.

Doesn't really matter, IMO, if the Big Bang or Evolution for that matter can be "proved true beyond a doubt"....the important thing is that these "theories" come about and are tested through the scientific process, rather than blind faith in the face of opposing evidence.

I think most scientists would be willing and ready to alter their beliefs in the face of evidence....and the scientific process has a systematic method of dealing with that and arriving at a new understanding.

The scientific process has brought us many wonderful discoveries throughout history...so, I don't really care if someone believes in the 6,000 year creation story...just don't call it science and don't teach it in science class in place of theories that are arrived at through the scientific process.

Science class is not so much about whether or not the final answer is "true"...but it's about the process to get to the best available explanation...which can change as new evidence comes in. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Being as Carson is a man of science...I don't imagine he would be against solid science education....so, that's really the only area I can think of where is belief in creationism is relevant to his ability to be POTUS.

LogDog

09-28-2015, 10:58 PM

Boehner's problem was he wasn't up to handling the small Tea Party faction within his party. The 2010 and 2014 elections, in which main stream republicans were being bumped-off by the Tea Party candidates, made him too timid to take them on directly. The Tea Party faction has only about 50 members and he still had control of around 195 members. This is a case of the tail-wagging-the-dog. Boehner could have reduced their presence in the House by ensuring they weren't on any committees of importance and stifling their roles in in their party's House caucus thereby eliminating a platform for them to voice their opinions.

Boehner's term as Speaker will be noted for overseeing the two least productive sessions of Congress.

MikeKerriii

09-28-2015, 11:36 PM

Well, I have to admit I had no idea he was so strongly in the fundamentalist Christian camp. The few times I have heard him speak he said nothing along these lines and was quite moderate.

As for his position on vaccinations I think you might be confused there.

"A lot of people are put off when they hear the word 'government force,' and perhaps there's a better way to put these things," Carson said. "But the fact of the matter is, studies have shown us over the course of time that the benefit-to-risk ratio for vaccination is way in the favor of doing it as opposed to not doing it."

So obviously it is unfair hyperbole to claim he is "prepared to let children die to avoid losing a few votes from".

Did you watch the last debates, Carson pandered to the anti-coaxing idiots very strongly with one of their favorite imaginary problems. when it was time to slap down this idiocy in front of a audience of millions he panders to the fools. I believe that cowardice shows that he is willing to let kids dies if that is what it takes to keep the crazies happy.

I think that his positions on evolution and the Big bang theory show a d man too disconnected from reality to be trusted with the job of president.

After all this is the lunatic that want drones strikes on US territory.

More from @RealBenCarson (https://twitter.com/RealBenCarson) on border issues: "You look at some of these caves and things out there one drone strike, boom, and they'd gone."

TJMAC77SP

09-29-2015, 02:31 AM

Did you watch the last debates, Carson pandered to the anti-coaxing idiots very strongly with one of their favorite imaginary problems. when it was time to slap down this idiocy in front of a audience of millions he panders to the fools. I believe that cowardice shows that he is willing to let kids dies if that is what it takes to keep the crazies happy.

I think that his positions on evolution and the Big bang theory show a d man too disconnected from reality to be trusted with the job of president.

After all this is the lunatic that want drones strikes on US territory.

Why do you always use pejorative terms in describing people who disagree with (Republicans)? A while ago all were scumbags, now they are loons. Really tiresome and predictable................

No, I didn't watch the last debates and quite frankly probably won't until it is a smaller field. Everyone is pandering at this point to some degree. Not sure if that was an error but I have no idea what the 'anti-coaxing idiots' are but Carson is not anti-vaccination and actually is quite the opposite so continuing to say that he is willing to let children die simply negates your argument (such as it is) and puts a spotlight on your agenda. If you are attempting to put him in the same camp as Jenny McCarthy and the other anti-vaccination crowd because he has some fundamental questions about the government making them mandatory that is a very specious logic jump.

As to the drone strikes he is by far not the only one who has mentioned this. I don't necessarily agree with him but let's make sure we present the true nature of what he said................

""There are caves that they utilize," Carson explained. "Those caves can be eliminated. There are a number of possibilities -- that could be one of them. … I'm not talking about killing people. No people with drones."

I actually thought the cartels use tunnels and not caves but whatever.

Sometimes a candidate mentions a desire off the top of his head that is a non-starter right off the bat. Like closing the detention facility at Gitmo. Made for nice campaign sound bites but just didn't work out.

MikeKerriii

09-29-2015, 03:09 AM

Why do you always use pejorative terms in describing people who disagree with (Republicans)? A while ago all were scumbags, now they are loons. Really tiresome and predictable................

No, I didn't watch the last debates and quite frankly probably won't until it is a smaller field. Everyone is pandering at this point to some degree. Not sure if that was an error but I have no idea what the 'anti-coaxing idiots' are but Carson is not anti-vaccination and actually is quite the opposite so continuing to say that he is willing to let children die simply negates your argument (such as it is) and puts a spotlight on your agenda. If you are attempting to put him in the same camp as Jenny McCarthy and the other anti-vaccination crowd because he has some fundamental questions about the government making them mandatory that is a very specious logic jump.

As to the drone strikes he is by far not the only one who has mentioned this. I don't necessarily agree with him but let's make sure we present the true nature of what he said................

""There are caves that they utilize," Carson explained. "Those caves can be eliminated. There are a number of possibilities -- that could be one of them. … I'm not talking about killing people. No people with drones."

I actually thought the cartels use tunnels and not caves but whatever.

Sometimes a candidate mentions a desire off the top of his head that is a non-starter right off the bat. Like closing the detention facility at Gitmo. Made for nice campaign sound bites but just didn't work out.

I use the terms I use becasue more accurate terms are against the rules here and i don't like using that level of profanity

Carson crawled for Trump while Trump was spouting pure anti-vaxxer idiocy, and MD that does that is scum or worse, especially when it is done inform of 20+ million people,. If he had any honor, professional ethics, or integrity he would have slated the idiot down. Since some of the audience treats Trump as a credible source for some bizarre reason.

the caves bit is pretty simple, If you shoot at a empty cave on US territory you are very unlikely to harm it, and it could easily be destroyed by a guy with 50$ worth of dynamite instead of a missile with a 6 digit price tag that is unlike to do harm to the cave. If you shoot a Cave on US soil with a missile and you kill someone you have just committed per-meditated murder since the legal and constitutional requirements for the use of deadly force have not been met. You have also violated Posse Comitatus since the mitary is not allowed to enforce civil law, much less commit murder while doing so. Yes, other people have proposed that but that just means that they are ignorant asses at best.

I notice you ignore the quote of him advocating the use of missiles

TJMAC77SP

09-29-2015, 02:28 PM

I use the terms I use becasue more accurate terms are against the rules here and i don't like using that level of profanity

Carson crawled for Trump while Trump was spouting pure anti-vaxxer idiocy, and MD that does that is scum or worse, especially when it is done inform of 20+ million people,. If he had any honor, professional ethics, or integrity he would have slated the idiot down. Since some of the audience treats Trump as a credible source for some bizarre reason.

the caves bit is pretty simple, If you shoot at a empty cave on US territory you are very unlikely to harm it, and it could easily be destroyed by a guy with 50$ worth of dynamite instead of a missile with a 6 digit price tag that is unlike to do harm to the cave. If you shoot a Cave on US soil with a missile and you kill someone you have just committed per-meditated murder since the legal and constitutional requirements for the use of deadly force have not been met. You have also violated Posse Comitatus since the mitary is not allowed to enforce civil law, much less commit murder while doing so. Yes, other people have proposed that but that just means that they are ignorant asses at best.

I notice you ignore the quote of him advocating the use of missiles

So you use lesser pejoratives to avoid using profane pejoratives. Ok, that doesn't answer my questions but whatever.

I understood what he wanted to do to the caves. Did you seriously think I didn't. Not sure why the explanation of that. BTW, your interpretation of the Posse Comitatus Act is a bit narrow and assumes the US military would operate the drones. The CBP has been flying Predator B's for over a decade. Why do you assume they wouldn't fly the strike version especially given the off-hand and hypothetical nature of Carson's remark (as in it is hardly a developed proposed policy)? I addressed Carson's mention of drone strikes, what quote about 'missiles' did I 'ignore'?

I would avoid making legal determinations if I were you. Your definitive statements are incorrect and sometimes just ignorant.

MikeKerriii

09-29-2015, 02:49 PM

So you use lesser pejoratives to avoid using profane pejoratives. Ok, that doesn't answer my questions but whatever.

I understood what he wanted to do to the caves. Did you seriously think I didn't. Not sure why the explanation of that. BTW, your interpretation of the Posse Comitatus Act is a bit narrow and assumes the US military would operate the drones. The CBP has been flying Predator B's for over a decade. Why do you assume they wouldn't fly the strike version especially given the off-hand and hypothetical nature of Carson's remark (as in it is hardly a developed proposed policy)? I addressed Carson's mention of drone strikes, what quote about 'missiles' did I 'ignore'?

I would avoid making legal determinations if I were you. Your definitive statements are incorrect and sometimes just ignorant.

I notice you make no comments on the folks that can't even spell the Presidents or MS. Clinton's name? Look up the term "Hypocrite "

I use pejoratives becasue ti think that the names fit theses loons who are so willing to throw way rte lives of American soldiers and the Constitution. I think that they are dangerous to the civilian citizenry of the United States, the Military and the Constitution.

I was assuming that the military would be used becasue any policeman who received orders for the drone strikes would be obligated to arrest the nut-job giving him the orders. And order to commit murder is not one that a honest cop can take without arresting the person who gives him the order. A mitary member at least can claim ignorance of the laws Cops must both follow and enforce.

Mjölnir

09-29-2015, 04:33 PM

I notice you make no comments on the folks that can't even spell the Presidents or MS. Clinton's name? Look up the term "Hypocrite "

You have said that you have some issues that impair your typing ... but you may want to lay off being the spelling and grammar police.

I was assuming that the military would be used becasue any policeman who received orders for the drone strikes would be obligated to arrest the nut-job giving him the orders. And order to commit murder is not one that a honest cop can take without arresting the person who gives him the order. A mitary member at least can claim ignorance of the laws Cops must both follow and enforce.

What are you basing that on? There are 'ignorance of the law rulings and precedent, but it is large jump to claim ignorance of an obscure section of criminal code and murder. Military members are obligated and legally accountable to follow lawful orders; being ordered to shoot or drop munitions on an unarmed and non-hostile is pretty basic ROE type stuff that most of your combat arms / direct action people are well versed on as well as the drone operators who operate the drones. As far as collateral damage from the use / employment of drones and if killing a person is murder ... you should research that better and while some may try to classify it as murder, but there is significant legal precedent and application of international law to show that (at least legally) that is not murder ... no more so than demolishing a home to find out someone was hiding in it ... good faith in effort to clear the house or verify the validity of a combat target.

MikeKerriii

09-29-2015, 04:46 PM

You have said that you have some issues that impair your typing ... but you may want to lay off being the spelling and grammar police. I was refering to the fools that use term such as Obumpmer and the like, people who intentionaly mangle the name and think they are clever.

What are you basing that on? There are 'ignorance of the law rulings and precedent, but it is large jump to claim ignorance of an obscure section of criminal code and murder. Military members are obligated and legally accountable to follow lawful orders; being ordered to shoot or drop munitions on an unarmed and non-hostile is pretty basic ROE type stuff that most of your combat arms / direct action people are well versed on as well as the drone operators who operate the drones. As far as collateral damage from the use / employment of drones and if killing a person is murder ... you should research that better and while some may try to classify it as murder, but there is significant legal precedent and application of international law to show that (at least legally) that is not murder ... no more so than demolishing a home to find out someone was hiding in it ... good faith in effort to clear the house or verify the validity of a combat target. Inside the US the rules used by police on when the use of armed force is authorized are the ones that count, especial when the force is being used to enforce civil law. You would have a point is you were talking about military actions in a state of war, or a situation approaching war outside the US, but in the US the military has to obey civil law like everyone else and the SC has made it very clear when the use of deadly force is authorized to stop a criminal. That the US Government can torture people outside the US doesn't mean that they can ignore Miranda and torture criminal suspects within the US for example.

Mjölnir

09-29-2015, 05:00 PM

Inside the US the rules used by police on when the use of armed force is authorized are the ones that count, especial when the force is being used to enforce civil law. You would have a point is you were talking about military actions in a state of war, or a situation approaching war outside the US, but in the US the military has to obey civil law like everyone else and the SC has made it very clear when the use of deadly force is authorized to stop a criminal. That the US Government can torture people outside the US doesn't mean that they can ignore Miranda and torture criminal suspects within the US for example.

In some many ways, yes. Are you aware / versed on the exceptions to Posse Comitatus already in place for SOCOM? Not offering opinion if it is right or wrong, but legal exceptions are already in place when dealing with certain types of criminals ... Mostly terrorists. The process more mission approval is very thorough and makes me glad I am not a JAG Officer.

TJMAC77SP

09-29-2015, 07:30 PM

I notice you make no comments on the folks that can't even spell the Presidents or MS. Clinton's name? Look up the term "Hypocrite "

What in God's name are you talking about now?

I use pejoratives becasue ti think that the names fit theses loons who are so willing to throw way rte lives of American soldiers and the Constitution. I think that they are dangerous to the civilian citizenry of the United States, the Military and the Constitution.

"Throw away lives". I have a dictionary suggestion for you..................Hyperbole.

I was assuming that the military would be used becasue any policeman who received orders for the drone strikes would be obligated to arrest the nut-job giving him the orders. And order to commit murder is not one that a honest cop can take without arresting the person who gives him the order. A mitary member at least can claim ignorance of the laws Cops must both follow and enforce.

As I said before you REALLY should stop attempting to provide ANY interpretation of laws. You are a miserable failure at it. At best you oversimplify and at worst you completely fuck it up.

MikeKerriii

09-29-2015, 08:03 PM

What in God's name are you talking about now? The dimmwirted conservatives that use terms like Obbumer and such

"Throw away lives". I have a dictionary suggestion for you..................Hyperbole. Gather you have no knowlwdge of trumps plan for arbitrary intervention against ISIS, that plan is throwing away lives out of sheer stupidity,. He thinks we can take and hold just the oilfields without a major loss of life/. Like GW Bush he is willing to throw away mitary lives for a few political points

As I said before you REALLY should stop attempting to provide ANY interpretation of laws. You are a miserable failure at it. At best you oversimplify and at worst you completely fuck it up. I got this one right, the laws in this area, and the precedents are very clear. Carson is just a clueless clown who has no grasp on legal, military or Constitutional reality.

TJMAC77SP

09-29-2015, 10:04 PM

The dimmwirted conservatives that use terms like Obbumer and such

Like Teabagger? Yeah I get it. What I don't get is why you brought that up in comparison to you calling anyone you don't agree with (Republicans) scumbags and loons, etc.

Gather you have no knowlwdge of trumps plan for arbitrary intervention against ISIS, that plan is throwing away lives out of sheer stupidity,. He thinks we can take and hold just the oilfields without a major loss of life/. Like GW Bush he is willing to throw away mitary lives for a few political points

Well, I first balked at your claim the Carson is willing to "throw away lives" Still don't know how that one works in your mind. As for Trump I don't know how he intends to build a wall on the southern border or deport 11 million people either. I don't know how Sanders plans to pay for his programs without raising taxes or slashing the military to almost nothing. One thing I can say is that by not engaging ISIS we are saving US lives. Until we aren't.

Speaking of predictable.............after more than six years had to get a "It's Bush's fault" dig in.

I got this one right, the laws in this area, and the precedents are very clear. Carson is just a clueless clown who has no grasp on legal, military or Constitutional reality.

Ah, no you didn't get it right. The Posse Comitatus is not as ironclad as you intimate. A collateral death in a police actions is not universally "premeditated murder". In fact that charge is very, very rare in police involved shootings. I would tell you to keep trying but the truth is I wish you would stop.

MikeKerriii

09-29-2015, 10:49 PM

Like Teabagger? Yeah I get it. What I don't get is why you brought that up in comparison to you calling anyone you don't agree with (Republicans) scumbags and loons, etc..Because you whine about the word I s use while ignoring the language your side of the issuers uses, that makes you a hypocrite.

Well, I first balked at your claim the Carson is willing to "throw away lives" Still don't know how that one works in your mind. As for Trump I don't know how he intends to build a wall on the southern border or deport 11 million people either. I don't know how Sanders plans to pay for his programs without raising taxes or slashing the military to almost nothing. One thing I can say is that by not engaging ISIS we are saving US lives. Until we aren't.Engaginfge ISIS is a good I dea and a necessay one, Trumps plan on the otherhand is simply a display of a near complete ignorance of military realities.

Speaking of predictable.............after more than six years had to get a "It's Bush's fault" dig in. He was the POS that got us into the war in Iraq, so why should he not have the s responsibility for the deaths his incompetence and hubris caused?

Ah, no you didn't get it right. The Posse Comitatus is not as ironclad as you intimate. A collateral death in a police actions is not universally "premeditated murder". In fact that charge is very, very rare in police involved shootings. I would tell you to keep trying but the truth is I wish you would stop. When the police action involved is a crime in and of itself deaths realating to that action are called felony homicide. This would be the equivalent of a Cop rubbing a bank and killing a teller since it would be a action that can't be supported by law. The ruling about when deadly force can and can not be used is pretty clear as is Posse Commitaus, especially since with both those things a the proposed action would be violating the core of the ruling/statute where there is little leeway.

How do think that the Posse Commitatus and Tennessee V. Garner can be twisted enough to allow Carson's plan not to be considered murder? The use of deadly force in law enforcement is legally limited to the officer has Probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or other. We are not talking about contested law here this is straight forward stuff, If you use force outside that limit it is murder, if you plan to use force outside those limits and then do so it is premeditated murder.

TJMAC77SP

09-29-2015, 11:04 PM

Because you whine about the word I s use while ignoring the language your side of the issuers uses, that makes you a hypocrite.

Engaginfge ISIS is a good I dea and a necessay one, Trumps plan on the otherhand is simply a display of a near complete ignorance of military realities.
He was the POS that got us into the war in Iraq, so why should he not have the s responsibility for the deaths his incompetence and hubris caused?

When the police action involved is a crime in and of itself deaths realating to that action are called felony homicide. This would be the equivalent of a Cop rubbing a bank and killing a teller since it would be a action that can't be supported by law. The ruling about when deadly force can and can not be used is pretty clear as is Posse Commitaus, especially since with both those things a the proposed action would be violating the core of the ruling/statute where there is little leeway.

How do think that the Posse Commitatus and Tennessee V. Garner can be twisted enough to allow Carson's plan not to be considered murder? The use of deadly force in law enforcement is legally limited to the officer has Probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or other. We are not talking about contested law here this is straight forward stuff, If you use force outside that limit it is murder, if you plan to use force outside those limits and then do so it is premeditated murder.

Your typing is getting worse again. Something wrong?

The fact that you characterize my questioning of your incessant use of pejorative insults to routinely refer to those you don't like (Republicans) as whining is just more of the same drivel. Have you no imagination or credibility?

Bush unilaterally got us into war? Another of your stellar displays of historical awareness. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/107-2002/h455

Instead of digging the hole deeper (Felony Homicide? Is there such a thing as Misdemeanor Homicide?) how about just addressing your original fractured ideas on this and stop adding more shit to the pile? You are so far afield from reality. Drone strike on a cave to cop robbing a bank and killing a teller?!? What the hell does that even mean.

To refresh your memory...................

"the caves bit is pretty simple, If you shoot at a empty cave on US territory you are very unlikely to harm it, and it could easily be destroyed by a guy with 50$ worth of dynamite instead of a missile with a 6 digit price tag that is unlike to do harm to the cave. If you shoot a Cave on US soil with a missile and you kill someone you have just committed per-meditated murder since the legal and constitutional requirements for the use of deadly force have not been met. You have also violated Posse Comitatus since the mitary is not allowed to enforce civil law, much less commit murder while doing so. Yes, other people have proposed that but that just means that they are ignorant asses at best."

MikeKerriii

09-30-2015, 01:37 AM

Your typing is getting worse again. Something wrong?

The fact that you characterize my questioning of your incessant use of pejorative insults to routinely refer to those you don't like (Republicans) as whining is just more of the same drivel. Have you no imagination or credibility?

Bush unilaterally got us into war? Another of your stellar displays of historical awareness. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/107-2002/h455

Instead of digging the hole deeper (Felony Homicide? Is there such a thing as Misdemeanor Homicide?) how about just addressing your original fractured ideas on this and stop adding more shit to the pile? You are so far afield from reality. Drone strike on a cave to cop robbing a bank and killing a teller?!? What the hell does that even mean.

To refresh your memory...................

"the caves bit is pretty simple, If you shoot at a empty cave on US territory you are very unlikely to harm it, and it could easily be destroyed by a guy with 50$ worth of dynamite instead of a missile with a 6 digit price tag that is unlike to do harm to the cave. If you shoot a Cave on US soil with a missile and you kill someone you have just committed per-meditated murder since the legal and constitutional requirements for the use of deadly force have not been met. You have also violated Posse Comitatus since the mitary is not allowed to enforce civil law, much less commit murder while doing so. Yes, other people have proposed that but that just means that they are ignorant asses at best."
Bush's administration manipulated the intelligence to get us into a war, his scumbag VP still pretends that there was a threat.

Felony homicide is a crime that applies in most states, If someone dies as a result of your committing a felony it is treated as murder even if you did not pull the trigger.

The bank analogy works well since blowing things up on private and state property without the owners consent is a felony and that covers more that half of the border. If some dies in the commission of a felony it is regarded as murder. Without a warrant you are not even allowed to search private property much less blow it up.

TJMAC77SP

09-30-2015, 01:52 PM

Bush's administration manipulated the intelligence to get us into a war, his scumbag VP still pretends that there was a threat.

Felony homicide is a crime that applies in most states, If someone dies as a result of your committing a felony it is treated as murder even if you did not pull the trigger.

The bank analogy works well since blowing things up on private and state property without the owners consent is a felony and that covers more that half of the border. If some dies in the commission of a felony it is regarded as murder. Without a warrant you are not even allowed to search private property much less blow it up.

Ok, I get it......Bush = Evil. Cheney = Satan

Now I know what you are talking about. At least the first part. It is usually referred to as Felony Murder and it doesn't fit your example. If the act of striking a cartel cave (still don't know where those are) on US soil is declared illegal (and I am not conceding that is a foregone conclusion) then the people killed in the strike would all be just murder victims. The felony murder charge wouldn't apply since the murders were a direct and singular result of the missile strike. Same with the dead teller. Guy robs a bank and kills a teller that is murder. Customer dies of a heart attack as a result of the robbery...THAT could be considered felony murder.

As for the last part.......I ask again, what in God's name are you talking about? Your fractured logic is actually painful to my brain.

"Blowing things up on private and state property is a felony" ?!?!?!

Rainmaker

09-30-2015, 05:02 PM

In the last 6 years, The Nobel Peace Prize Winner in Chief (peace be upon him) has bombed Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Intentionally destabilized Secular regimes all over the Middle East in order to install Fundamentalist Fanatics in their place, routinely droned wedding parties, created ISIS (either inadvertently or intentionally ,depending on who you ask), backed the Sunni Saudi invasion of Yemen.

And last but, not least... Paved the way for the Moslem invasion/Colonization of Western and Northern Europe.

It could be a vast right wing conspiracy against Hitlery or, it could be Darth Cheney's fault. But, There's One thing Rainmaker can be sure of. It's that those Norwegians really know a pacifist when they see one. NomSayin?

Rainmaker

10-01-2015, 04:20 PM

Bush's administration manipulated the intelligence to get us into a war, his scumbag VP still pretends that there was a threat.

The Deception and lies are not unique to only one political party.

The problem is that the "intelligence community" is not really all that Intelligent (it's just incredibly over-funded)

It's mostly staffed with Incompetent bureaucratic drones and led by politically correct idiots (just Like the rest of the Fed Government) .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelgate

"The whistle blowers allege that the Obama Administration attempted to portray a rosy image of the fight against the Islamic State by altering some reports to seem more positive, while burying other reports to keep them from the press and Congress.

The analysts specifically alleged that the conclusions of both their reports about the readiness of indigenous forces to face ISIS, and about the effectiveness of the American air campaigns over Syria and Iraq, were completely reversed by the Administration before distribution"

UncaRastus

10-01-2015, 10:53 PM

Rainmaker,

Deception? Say it ain't so!

Back in the good old days, during the Vietnam Conflict, they sure never would have been deceitful!

'We need a report that will keep the American People supporting our Conflictors in Vietnam. Here is an easy to use model for such reports to the POTUS.

Anyone going over there, from the US Government, to report about how ___________________ (fill in the blank with Ngô Đình Diệm, maybe Dương Văn Minh, possibly Nguyễn Thành, could be Nguyễn Văn Thiệu , or Nguyễn Cao Kỳ, and just maybe Trần Văn Hương, or make up a name, but make sure that it sounds oriental, because really, who is going to find out that we are prevaricating) is spending all of the support money from the USA to defeat the Conflictees, make sure that you don't say anything about corruption of the Southern Vietnamese Government.

There are a lot of Nguyễns mentioned. So many.

Pronounce that name as Nugent, without the T. Just like that Amboy Dukes lead singer, Teddy Nugent. Without the Teddy or the following bunch of letters that are in Nguyễn. Also forget the last T also. 'new gen'. Soft 'g'.

That should take some time for the Americans to figure out, that we can't really speak Vietnamese. Never let them know how it is really pronounced. Because none of us know to say that name.

Nugen.

Make sure that you mention the very satisfying body count of the Communist Horde, inflicted by our boys. As a matter of fact, multiply whatever you are told by 10.

Stress the areas that the Americans have conquered, but don't mention anything about how those guys like to live underground in tunnels. The Americans above ground are the winners, not the subterranean mole people.

Absolutely get some pics of Americans giving immunizations at the village or hamlet level. Do NOT report that that is a pretty sure way of having those cute little adorable children's arms being cut off by the Bad Boys, after the medics or the corpsmen have left those villages.

Also, use the names or the acronyms for the Commies. Use Viet Minh (VM), North VietNam Army (NVA), and Viet Cong (VC), interchangeably, to keep the Americans confused. Also, stress how the words Charly and Gook are used by everybody, including by the Commies, themselves.

You are to emphasize the word Trail, when you are writing about the Ho Chi Minh Trail, even though now it is the size of a Freeway.

Try to spread the word that Buddhist monks are being attacked by the Charlys. They set each one that they capture on fire. Repeat this, just as is being done below:

132132

Emphasize how as to SVN General Nguyễn Ngọc Loan is actually shooting a Lice Killing Round into the hair of Captain Nguyễn Lem of the VC, to make sure that the nits of the Captain are not spread about the luxurious prison camp where he is being held.

131131

Rinse and repeat.

And would it be so hard to find a place to paint a Happy Face onto the entrance gate of an American armed forces compound?'*

*actual text on 'How to Keep the USA Happy', as found one day by reporter Walter Cronkite.

Ok, I get it......Bush = Evil. Cheney = Satan
I would never say the the biblical Satan has a far lower body count that either of those vile POS, and that is just including the American they got killed,

TJMAC77SP

10-02-2015, 02:23 AM

I would never say the the biblical Satan has a far lower body count that either of those vile POS, and that is just including the American they got killed,

So, just more pejoratives.................."...vile POS". Of course you did include a lame attempt at humor as well so it's all good.

Don't worry about the rest of my post you got your inane insult in so your job is done.

MikeKerriii

10-02-2015, 02:55 AM

So, just more pejoratives.................."...vile POS". Of course you did include a lame attempt at humor as well so it's all good.

Don't worry about the rest of my post you got your inane insult in so your job is done.

I should apologies to ll the real POSs in the world they don't deserve to be compared to Bush or Cheney

The Satan comparison was not humor, it is was a simple statement of fact.

Rainmaker

10-03-2015, 12:49 AM

Rainmaker,

Deception? Say it ain't so!

Back in the good old days, during the Vietnam Conflict, they sure never would have been deceitful!

'We need a report that will keep the American People supporting our Conflictors in Vietnam. Here is an easy to use model for such reports to the POTUS.

Anyone going over there, from the US Government, to report about how ___________________ (fill in the blank with Ngô Đình Diệm, maybe Dương Văn Minh, possibly Nguyễn Thành, could be Nguyễn Văn Thiệu , or Nguyễn Cao Kỳ, and just maybe Trần Văn Hương, or make up a name, but make sure that it sounds oriental, because really, who is going to find out that we are prevaricating) is spending all of the support money from the USA to defeat the Conflictees, make sure that you don't say anything about corruption of the Southern Vietnamese Government.

There are a lot of Nguyễns mentioned. So many.

Pronounce that name as Nugent, without the T. Just like that Amboy Dukes lead singer, Teddy Nugent. Without the Teddy or the following bunch of letters that are in Nguyễn. Also forget the last T also. 'new gen'. Soft 'g'.

That should take some time for the Americans to figure out, that we can't really speak Vietnamese. Never let them know how it is really pronounced. Because none of us know to say that name.

Nugen.

Make sure that you mention the very satisfying body count of the Communist Horde, inflicted by our boys. As a matter of fact, multiply whatever you are told by 10.

Stress the areas that the Americans have conquered, but don't mention anything about how those guys like to live underground in tunnels. The Americans above ground are the winners, not the subterranean mole people.

Absolutely get some pics of Americans giving immunizations at the village or hamlet level. Do NOT report that that is a pretty sure way of having those cute little adorable children's arms being cut off by the Bad Boys, after the medics or the corpsmen have left those villages.

Also, use the names or the acronyms for the Commies. Use Viet Minh (VM), North VietNam Army (NVA), and Viet Cong (VC), interchangeably, to keep the Americans confused. Also, stress how the words Charly and Gook are used by everybody, including by the Commies, themselves.

You are to emphasize the word Trail, when you are writing about the Ho Chi Minh Trail, even though now it is the size of a Freeway.

Try to spread the word that Buddhist monks are being attacked by the Charlys. They set each one that they capture on fire. Repeat this, just as is being done below:

132132

Emphasize how as to SVN General Nguyễn Ngọc Loan is actually shooting a Lice Killing Round into the hair of Captain Nguyễn Lem of the VC, to make sure that the nits of the Captain are not spread about the luxurious prison camp where he is being held.

131131

Rinse and repeat.

And would it be so hard to find a place to paint a Happy Face onto the entrance gate of an American armed forces compound?'*

*actual text on 'How to Keep the USA Happy', as found one day by reporter Walter Cronkite.

The more things change, the more they stay the same I guess.......So, Does Aunt Angie know that Uncle Rasta's been hittin the Mogen David again?

UncaRastus

10-03-2015, 03:35 PM

Rainmaker,

You do have a memory, RM!

I have stopped guzzling down my favorite sleeping potion, MD 20/20, mixed with Miller beer. That worked, but waking up the next day was not pleasant.

Now I just lay in bed, hoping that I wake up, the next morning.

Mjölnir

10-04-2015, 12:46 AM

Now I just lay in bed, hoping that I wake up, the next morning.

The first & best surprise of the day!

UncaRastus

10-04-2015, 03:56 PM

Mjölnir,

Yup!

I know that I am getting on in years. I must be. Because I have been a constant watcher of the Simpsons. If I was out and about, I did have a friend that would VHS the episodes that I missed.

I started out liking Bart. Pretty quickly, I chose Homer to be my hero. Lately, I think that Grandpa Abe is the funniest part of the Simpsons, ever!

Also, when the credits run, I used to know all of the guest appearances by name, and I knew what they did in real life.

Now? Once in awhile, I know them. But usually? Not.

OK, since I was on vacation, I DVRed some shows. I am off to watch my canned Simpsons. To me, that is a religious duty that I must perform.

All Hail Abe!

Rainmaker

10-06-2015, 12:13 AM

Rainmaker,

You do have a memory, RM!

I have stopped guzzling down my favorite sleeping potion, MD 20/20, mixed with Miller beer. That worked, but waking up the next day was not pleasant.

Now I just lay in bed, hoping that I wake up, the next morning.

"Shortly before Appomattox, while Gen'ral Lee was secretly recovering from a mighty bout of Sepsis,
Gen’rals Luck and Grant met to discuss how the war had gone. Gen’ral Luck had lost both feet and seven fingers, and was not at all unanxious that the course of the terrible war might finally be at an end. Grant, on the other hand, had found the entire endeavor somewhat enjoyable and was heard loudly remarking that he would make sure his next job, whatever it may be, would need to allow him to be even more constantly inebriated than Gen’raling had allowed."