"The gods are all eternal scoundrels Incapable of dissolving the suffering of impermanence. Those who serve them and venerate them May even in this world sink into a sea of sorrow. We know the gods are false and have no concrete being; Therefore the wise man believes them not The fate of the world depends on causes and conditions Therefore the wise man may not rely on gods."

When this concentration is thus developed, thus well developed by you, then wherever you go, you will go in comfort. Wherever you stand, you will stand in comfort. Wherever you sit, you will sit in comfort. Wherever you lie down, you will lie down in comfort.

Note, 'the gods'. The Gods' that are referred to here are rather more like the Roman and Greek pantheon.

When Christianity was formed, it did inherit some of the attributes of the pagan faiths which proceeded it. Nevertheless, God as Jesus Christ ought not to be confused with the pagan Gods of either East or West. Nor should Christianity be understood as the worship of a pantheistic deity.

It would be preferable to understand what Christianity and Buddhism have in common - which is a great deal - than to engage in sectarian polemics. All the spiritual traditions in the world, East and West, are equally threatened by scientific atheism, which has no more regard for the the Buddha Dhamma that it does for Hanuman or Zeus.

sunyavadin wrote:Note, 'the gods'. The Gods' that are referred to here are rather more like the Roman and Greek pantheon.

When Christianity was formed, it did inherit some of the attributes of the pagan faiths which proceeded it. Nevertheless, God as Jesus Christ ought not to be confused with the pagan Gods of either East or West. Nor should Christianity be understood as the worship of a pantheistic deity.

It would be preferable to understand what Christianity and Buddhism have in common - which is a great deal - than to engage in sectarian polemics.

One need not engage in sectarian polemics in order to understand that the Buddha rejected an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique agent that is the cause of the cosmos and why.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Your claim of precision seems to be exemplified by your claim of me that "you havn't shown anything regarding the term [atheism]", but as I have shown you, that was less than precise.

please read all of what I say instead of snipping qualifying terms to suit.

tilt wrote:It all depends upon how one opts to use the words and in what contexts. You are the one who keeps going on about narrow and broad definitions, which are, of course, legitimate ways of approaching an issue. If one uses a narrow definition, that is the context and the basis for what is said, and it is a legitimate in that way. Why would that be a problem? One does not necessarily rule out the other.

yes, if someone of no religion says they are a atheist they mean all godsif someone of a religion says you are a atheist they are referring to their gods (and has a derogatory sense)if someone of a religion says they are a atheist christian they are referring to the named religion.as an example of the latter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism.

And given that one can reasonably talk about Buddhist atheism.

and given that you can reasonably talk & understand the meaning about it in the way Stephen Batchelor is applying it... which follows its application in other religions, I do not comprehend from any stand point why it means what you claim it to.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

and given that you can reasonably talk & understand the meaning about it in the way Stephen Batchelor is applying it... which follows its application in other religions, I do not comprehend from any stand point why it means what you claim it to.

This "sentence" of yours is so gammatically confused, I am not sure what you are tying to say here.

But if you are trying to say that I am doing what Batchelor is doing, you are patently wrong. I can see that you, indeed, do not understand what I am doing, but given that we have gone around all of this repeatedly in the same circle, I would say that going around the same circle is likely to continue to be the case.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

and given that you can reasonably talk & understand the meaning about it in the way Stephen Batchelor is applying it... which follows its application in other religions, I do not comprehend from any stand point why it means what you claim it to.

This "sentence" of yours is so gammatically confused, I am not sure what you are tying to say here.

But if you are trying to say that I am doing what Batchelor is doing, you are patently wrong. I can see that you, indeed, do not understand what I am doing, but given that we have gone around all of this repeatedly in the same circle, I would say that going around the same circle is likely to continue to be the case.

you say this quite allot in a rude way, but as you have willfully misrepresented me in the past, and clearly have a problem with reading what I am saying (I am fond of precision btw) This claim and any future claims will be ignored in an appropriate manner.

Stephen Batchelor, and the like, use Buddhist atheism in a way that christian atheists use the term; the application has a history!

so where you are coming up with the limited use to refer to an outside religion, a use which is already a tenet within Buddhism so no extra definition is needed in that regard, and as a you showed there is an equivalent to the term atheism within the prakrit languages, which the Buddha and early disciples never had a need to apply to the Dhamma-vinaya I do not understand how you are coming to the conclusion that it is an appropriate term as a description (which I am now trying to understand).

To me it seams like the claim that the Buddha teaches in-action, and in a way he does, but that isn't the whole story.

If you can not understand that don't bother replying!

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

and given that you can reasonably talk & understand the meaning about it in the way Stephen Batchelor is applying it... which follows its application in other religions, I do not comprehend from any stand point why it means what you claim it to.

This "sentence" of yours is so gammatically confused, I am not sure what you are tying to say here.

But if you are trying to say that I am doing what Batchelor is doing, you are patently wrong. I can see that you, indeed, do not understand what I am doing, but given that we have gone around all of this repeatedly in the same circle, I would say that going around the same circle is likely to continue to be the case.

you say this quite allot in a rude way, but as you have willfully misrepresented me in the past, and clearly have a problem with reading what I am saying (I am fond of precision btw) This claim and any future claims will be ignored in an appropriate manner.

Being fond of precision is a good thing and good practice.

Stephen Batchelor, and the like, use Buddhist atheism in a way that christian atheists use the term; the application has a history!

As I said, I am not doing what Batchelor is doing. Is this supposed to be guilt by association?

so where you are coming up with the limited use to refer to an outside religion, a use which is already a tenet within Buddhism so no extra definition is needed in that regard, and as a you showed there is an equivalent to the term atheism within the prakrit languages, which the Buddha and early disciples never had a need to apply to the Dhamma-vinaya I do not understand how you are coming to the conclusion that it is an appropriate term.

The Hindu word I used was a later Sanskrit word, not prakrit, but if a later Sanskrit word is not appropriate, why would a considerably later English locution, non-theistic, be appropriate?

To me it seams like the claim that the Buddha teaches in-action, and in a way he does, but that isn't the whole story.

If you can not understand that don't bother replying!

What you are saying in the preceeding sentence is a bit cryptic. Precision is good and clarity is even better.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

I will reply Later maybe tomorrow I am too tired to answer now unfortunately.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

tiltbillings wrote:Being fond of precision is a good thing and good practice.

Yes, yet it is not claiming to be precise.

As I said, I am not doing what Batchelor is doing. Is this supposed to be guilt by association?

no, but the point was the application of atheism within a "religion," as you are using, has a history of use.

so where you are coming up with the limited use to refer to an outside religion, a use which is already a tenet within Buddhism so no extra definition is needed in that regard, and as a you showed there is an equivalent to the term atheism within the prakrit languages, which the Buddha and early disciples never had a need to apply to the Dhamma-vinaya I do not understand how you are coming to the conclusion that it is an appropriate term.

The Hindu word I used was a later Sanskrit word, not prakrit, but if a later Sanskrit word is not appropriate, why would a considerably later English locution, non-theistic, be appropriate?Prakrit is a language family which sanskrit & pali are part.There may well of been the term before this reference, or it may be more than just one word? I would be interested to know what word/s are used if you are aware!however I do not know, nor find any identical pali term in the dictionary I have, there are schools known about within the canon who may well of been atheistic such as the Materialists; sceptics, and annihilists all could of had some form of atheistic teaching whether broad or narrow in meaning.Non-theism as opposed to atheism is used as a umbrella term, there are non-theistic religions, such as the christian atheists, or some of them at least, and Unitarian Universalism - which isn't specifically atheistic or theistic in any sense of the word - would fall into the non-theistic umbrella, just as deists, or pandeists can. so because it doesn't exclude such interpretations, yet excludes the theistic centrality of god to the path it is a far more appropriate term, compared with Atheism which excludes gods entirely, as previously noted with the meaning and lack of use as an umbrella term, it is also only partly correct (only the narrow creator denial) that Buddhism is atheistic.[EDIT= this would also be allong the lines of "samana" "materialists" "sceptics" & "annihalists" as umbrella terms, as not all areas of each individuals teachings would of been mutually compatible or the same.]

To me it seams like the claim that the Buddha teaches in-action, and in a way he does, but that isn't the whole story.

If you can not understand that don't bother replying!

What you are saying in the preceeding sentence is a bit cryptic. Precision is good and clarity is even better.[/quote]There is a sutta (AN8.12 page 201 of the anothology of the AN by Bodhi & Nyanaponika & one which looks more complete on this page http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html second one down) where the BUddha is asked about the hearsay claim he teaches inaction, and he says there is a way that it could be said he teaches inaction, and a way it could be said he teaches action. to say he teaches inaction would be incorrect, and the same is true here, in a way it can be said that buddhism in atheistic yet also a way it could be called theistic, which was the initial "problem". I am reminded of (I think in this thread) the short Q&A regarding use of god, god does not have to mean a being and can substitute for Dhamma for an individual understanding, yet, it is easily confusing for others who do not have the kind of being as a understanding.

Last edited by Cittasanto on Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

"The gods are all eternal scoundrels Incapable of dissolving the suffering of impermanence. Those who serve them and venerate them May even in this world sink into a sea of sorrow. We know the gods are false and have no concrete being; Therefore the wise man believes them not The fate of the world depends on causes and conditions Therefore the wise man may not rely on gods."

no atheism states the gods dont exist if the Buddha was trying to be atheist he would of stated their are NO GODS,instead he acknowledged the existance of gods and stated they were stuck in samsarasan and lowly beings.

also if one wants to compare the Buddha then he would be compared to the idea of the mono god for the Buddha is ALL KNOWING,ALL LOVING,ALL SEEING,PERMENENT,and IS enlightenement,the cosmos as Tiltbilt is refering to is impermanet and of mara,ENlightenemnt is of Buddha and is Buddha.so yes the Buddha couyld be compared to being the owner or creator of the ACTUAL EXISTANCE=Enlightenement(none mara cosmos)

also sir impermanence/and dependenty origination has for its cause and root IGNORANCE which is one of the poisons which the Buddha doesnt have.=Permenance.

there is no such thing as atheism in Buddhist suttas,people are simply lying to themselves.

Both Buddhism and Atheism are trying to convince people to stop following any god, and not to rely on any god for their salvation.

They do this using different methods (one says gods don't exist, while the other says gods are worthless), but both seem to have the same end result in mind - breaking peoples dependency on god.

When this concentration is thus developed, thus well developed by you, then wherever you go, you will go in comfort. Wherever you stand, you will stand in comfort. Wherever you sit, you will sit in comfort. Wherever you lie down, you will lie down in comfort.

I don't think that is true. At least Buddhism recognizes moral principles and understands that there are better and worse ways to live your life. Many (not all) atheists are also nihilistic, they believe there is no moral code, that the Universe is meaningless, and that there is no reason for existence. The Buddha also criticized these views.

Nyanoponika Thera wrote:Those who use the word "atheism" often associate it with a materialistic doctrine that knows nothing higher than this world of the senses and the slight happiness it can bestow. Buddhism is nothing of that sort. In this respect it agrees with the teachings of other religions, that true lasting happiness cannot be found in this world; nor, the Buddha adds, can it be found on any higher plane of existence, conceived as a heavenly or divine world, since all planes of existence are impermanent and thus incapable of giving lasting bliss. The spiritual values advocated by Buddhism are directed, not towards a new life in some higher world, but towards a state utterly transcending the world, namely, Nibbana.

As much as I admire the late Ven Nyanaponika, K.N. Jayatilleke, PhD, offers a bit of a different take on the questions raised in the above quote:

Buddhist AtheismWhile Buddhism is atheistic, we must not forget that Buddhist atheism has at the same time tobe distinguished from materialistic atheism. Buddhism asserted the falsity of a materialisticphilosophy which denied survival, recompense and responsibility as well as moral and spiritualvalues and obligations, no less than certain forms of theistic beliefs. In its thoroughly objectivesearch for truth it was prepared to accept what was true and good in “the personal immortalityview” (bhavadiṭṭhi) of theism as well as “the annihilationist view” (vibhavadiṭṭhi) of atheisticmaterialism: “Those thinkers who do not see how these two views arise and cease to be, theirgood points as well as their defects and how one transcends them in accordance with the truthare under the grip of greed, hate and ignorance … and will not attain final deliverance.” (MN11.7/M I 65).

I think this whole post is nonesense,the topic of subject is did the Buddha beleive in god.

their are many gods in buddism so yes the Buddha beleived in god he also beleived in many gods,he even stated to be the teacher of all gods.

and the whole argument about it only pretaining to the monotheist idea of god is pure nonsense since the Buddha fits almost every single trait of the mono idea of god.

all loving,all knowing,all seeing,the owner and creator of the TRUE reality(not this fake mara cosmos)Permenant.the mono idea of god is the Buddha(minus the all powerful,for being all powerful is a contradiction to being all loving)

It seems like people want to add in atheism to buddhism and sorry it doesnt exist,just like they tried adding in nhilism and no afterlife,that nonsense isnt in Buddhism either.oh and did you know the Buddha was just a man?nope the Buddha sure didnt walk on water or fly to the moon or take 7 steps when he was born anmd speak,yea no supernatural aspects in Buddhism.yea they tried to take that out also,pretty soon they willl start editing our holy texts to meet atheist nhilist standards.

seriously if anyone here wants to be and atheist materalist nhilst then by all means go ahead.But dont label Buddhism as being such cause you wont find Buddhist suttas to support you,and please have enough respect to not "make up" your own form of Buddhism.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Judai wrote:and the whole argument about it only pretaining to the monotheist idea of god is pure nonsense since the Buddha fits almost every single trait of the mono idea of god.

all loving,all knowing,all seeing,the owner and creator of the TRUE reality(not this fake mara cosmos)Permenant.the mono idea of god is the Buddha(minus the all powerful,for being all powerful is a contradiction to being all loving)

Where are you getting this idea & description from?

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

Judai wrote:and the whole argument about it only pretaining to the monotheist idea of god is pure nonsense since the Buddha fits almost every single trait of the mono idea of god.

Not at all. The Buddha doesn't fit with the description of a monotheist God or even a lower case g -- god. He is simply 'awake' -- the one who rediscovered the Dhamma.

Then the Blessed One, leaving the road, went to sit at the root of a certain tree — his legs crossed, his body erect, with mindfulness established to the fore. Then Dona, following the Blessed One's footprints, saw him sitting at the root of the tree: confident, inspiring confidence, his senses calmed, his mind calmed, having attained the utmost control & tranquility, tamed, guarded, his senses restrained, a naga. On seeing him, he went to him and said, "Master, are you a god?"

Judai wrote:and the whole argument about it only pretaining to the monotheist idea of god is pure nonsense since the Buddha fits almost every single trait of the mono idea of god.

all loving,all knowing,all seeing,the owner and creator of the TRUE reality(not this fake mara cosmos)Permenant.the mono idea of god is the Buddha(minus the all powerful,for being all powerful is a contradiction to being all loving)

Where are you getting this idea & description from?

Hey Brother

(MAJJHIMA NIKAYA The noble search Sutta 26) "I am one who has transended all,a knower of all,Unsullied among all things,renouncing all,By craving's ceasing freed.Having known this all for myself,to whom should I point as teacher? I have no teacher,and one like me Exists nowhere in all the world,With all its gods,Because I have No person for my counterpart.I am the Accomplished One in the world I am the Teacher Supreme.I alone am the fully Enlightened One,Whose fires are quenched and extinguished.To set in motion the Wheel of the Dhamma In a world that has become blind.I go to beat the drum of the deathless."

Impermanance/dependent origination/suffering are all rooted in ignorance which is 1 of the 3 poisons,impermanace comes from ignorance the Buddha is permanant hence 4th nobles truth unless you think the Buddha slips back into impermanat samsara and can change and get the 3 poisons back?or has he done away with them permanently?

the above qoute covers all knowing/all seeing,all pure,and that no being is higher than a Buddha(supreme being Bhagavan)also states he is the teacher of deathless(imortality)and by the 4th noble truth Permanance,as far as creating the cosmos the cosmos is samsara which is of mara,and not the true reality correct?the true reality is Nirvana,which is the Buddha and of the Buddha.tiltbilt stated that for the Buddha to fit the mono idea of god he had to be the creator of the cosmos,well my reply was that the cosmos is of mara not the Buddha,and the Buddha is the author of the true reality =Nirvana

MAJJHIMA NIKAYA the greater discourse of the lion's roar sutta 12) the Blessed Ones spiritual powers:having been one,he becomes many; having been many he becomes ONE; he appears and vanishes;he goes unhindered through a wall,though an enclosure,through a mountain,as though through space; he dives in and out of the earth as though it were water;he walks on water without sinking as though it were earth;seated cross-legged, he travels in space like a bird;with his hand he touches and strokes the moon and sun so powerful and mighty;he wields bodily mastery even as far as the brahma-world."

Judai wrote:and the whole argument about it only pretaining to the monotheist idea of god is pure nonsense since the Buddha fits almost every single trait of the mono idea of god.

Not at all. The Buddha doesn't fit with the description of a monotheist God or even a lower case g -- god. He is simply 'awake' -- the one who rediscovered the Dhamma.

Then the Blessed One, leaving the road, went to sit at the root of a certain tree — his legs crossed, his body erect, with mindfulness established to the fore. Then Dona, following the Blessed One's footprints, saw him sitting at the root of the tree: confident, inspiring confidence, his senses calmed, his mind calmed, having attained the utmost control & tranquility, tamed, guarded, his senses restrained, a naga. On seeing him, he went to him and said, "Master, are you a god?"

"No, brahman, I am not a god."

Dona Sutta AN 4.36

Hey Brahmanimantanika sutta(majjhima nikaya)

The lord Budha refutes the Brhahma,for the Brahma claims he is permanent not subject to change and does not pass away.for which the Buddha tells him he is wrong an that The Buddha knows more and is higher.

pg 242 the Buddha tells him that in his ignorance he proclaims the impermenant to be the Permanent(Buddha) who has permanently ended all suffering and of course you know nhilism and anhilation of an existing being is wrong view in buddhism,so as the qoutes I posted the person above states,the Buddha is permenantly fixed,and does not cease to exist so what you get is the Buddha is the teacher of the deathless(immmortality)

also Dona AN 4:36 yes the Buddha is not a god he is the teacher of all gods,and he also is not a man either.