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Part of the reason teachers get so vicious is that in our industry, clients tend to ignore credentialing and certification.

In almost every other industry - healthcare, education, accounting, automotive repair, counseling, even yoga and pilates - people tend to check the credentials of people they go to.

Consider your own teacher, a "performance major at a local conservatory." Would you trust your taxes with an "accounting major at a local college?" Probably not. There is a perception among the public that music teachers don't need the same degree of qualification that other professionals do.

So unlike accountants and yoga instructors, music teachers have to compete with people who have no credentials and less experience, in part because clients are often more responsive to price and marketing savvy than credentials and experience.

As a result, qualified and experienced teachers feel a lot of frustration, and that can lead to some pretty vicious behavior.

Another part of the problem is that viable business models for teaching are elusive. In a way, this mirrors law and healthcare. Group practices are becoming the norm for physicians and attorneys because solo practices can't make enough money in a lot of markets. A high client volume helps keep the lights on. Many physicians are under tremendous pressure to see a LOT of patients. Attorneys end up being selective about their clientele and charge a very high hourly rate.

Similarly, music studios find it easier to keep the lights on if they can serve as many clients as possible. Since it's difficult to shorten a meeting to 10-15 minutes (like a physician) or command a high hourly rate (like an attorney), studio owners often end up hiring cheap labor, which often means hiring teachers who are willing to work for peanuts, often students or people just teaching part time.)

So...those are some random thoughts for now. I find this a rather fascinating thread. I'm pretty lucky here in the midwest. When I moved here, the local teachers were welcoming, referred students to me, and have been very supportive. There are a variety of business models here in town. I teach at home and as an independent contractor at a local music retailer. (I also do a ton of freelance accompanying and do adjunct work at a college.) There's also a non-profit pre-college conservatory in the area (an excellent Suzuki school), a preparatory program at the local university, and a smattering of independent music teachers.

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

Thank you Kreisler for explaining why would a piano teacher get vicious. However, that is not the reason why I get vicious (if that comment is for me, by the way, I am not offended by it)

I think Plowboy has his right to hire whoever he thinks is suitable for him. If he thinks a music performance major in local conservatory is good enough for him, it is his money, I am not against it, I think it is totally fine as everyone has their right to hire anyone.

The part that makes me uncomfortable is when the dishonest director comes into the picture. Let’s say if parents are informed that Teacher C and D do not have MTAC member by the director, and still decide to hire them, it is really parent’s choice. In most case just like what ANZ describe, the fact of Teacher C and D is not MTAC member is covered up by Teacher A and B by using A and B’s name to register for CM test.

If I have to compete with teachers who do not have Bachelor Degree in music, who charged less than me, that is my problem, I choose this line of work I should be aware of people do not treat piano teachers the same they treat doctors and lawyers.

However, if I have to compete “FAKE-MTAC members” that cover up by crooked and dishonest school director, that is where my vicious comes from.

Thank you Kreisler for explaining why would a piano teacher get vicious. However, that is not the reason why I get vicious (if that comment is for me, by the way, I am not offended by it)

Wasn't talking about you at all, just making general comments.

And I do know what you mean about ethics issues regarding competitions and other adjudicated events. In that case, ethics boards are important.

I don't know MTAC well, but here, if a teacher was circumventing membership by entering students under another teacher's name (and yes, it's happened), anyone can request that the ethics committee for our state organization look into it. In that case, all involved teachers could be placed on probation and the students could be disqualified. We also met last year as a group to clarify what was considered ethical marketing practices. We use MTNA's guidelines, and they seem to cover the bases pretty well.

That being said, no system is perfect, and there will always be a teacher here and there who get away with murder, but generally speaking, our state does pretty good job of keeping the community civil.

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

My profession is highly credentialed. What I've come to discover is that, in some cases, people who are highly credentialed are very accomplished at becoming highly credentialed and nothing else. Credentials aren't necessarily any sort of guarantee of competence.

Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

Quite a few professional pianists use pedal while playing Bach, so I don't know what you're talking about.

No Problem PlowBoy.I think I am vicious, so, not your problem. No need to apologize. Even if your comments is towards me, I am fine by it because you are right!

Quote:

Credentials aren't necessarily any sort of guarantee of competence.

In another thread, we talked about how some graduate students are better lecturer than some tenure professors at college. So, I am totally agree with you!

I think there are young teachers who is better than old teacher. I think there are Bachelor Degree teachers who is better than PhD teachers.However, no matter how I think, I can't think that dishonest teachers are better than honest teachers

That is just me. No dishonest!!! (I need a vicious emoticon here!) Would this work?

I was kind of glad Kevin posted what he posted. So much has been swept under the carpet to maintain the guise of civility around town, that many private piano teachers are suffering in silence.

The truth is, many of the transgressions of "music schools" have been going on for a long time. When I was younger I took lessons at a "music school" and I witnessed a lot of the rule-bending practices firsthand. But that was when the economy was good, and lots of people took lessons, so it was easy to "open one eye and shut one eye" and let things go in the name of civility.

But the times are changing. The actions of some (not all, some) "music schools" have become egregious. The economy has gone south, and fewer students are taking lessons. Thus, the transgressions take on a whole new meaning in these hard times. People's livelihood is at stake here, and some people can no longer afford (literally) to maintain that guise of civility.

The MTAC state office is, to its credit, taking actions. But sweeping reform might be more appropriate than small steps to combat this growing problem.

[quote=keystring] When commercial institutions take advantage of a testing system based on teacher-volunteers, everyone loses, except of course for the music school owners.

We paid a bit for my son to take the MTAC exams. There are quite a number of students taking exams every year. I thought that the money is used to pay for folks running the exams. Where does the money go if the exams were run by volunteers?

The state receives a portion of the CM fees collected. The branch uses their portion to pay for facility rental (last year, we paid $1500 to use the facility for 2 days). The evaluators are paid. The branch incurs additional costs for printing, supplies, meals for evaluators and volunteers and anything else needed to make it run. It's not inexpensive.

Q1: You said you are not a big fan of the music schools, but you just list four points that why you think music schools are good. So, could you share with us your reasons of not being a big fan of the music schools?

Q2: You think music schools serve their purposes for some parents, ones like you 4 years ago. Can you elaborate to compare what was your mindset four years ago and now? Later, can you tell us what makes you change?

Four plus years ago, when we first signed up my son for piano lessons, we did not know much about piano study. So, having the directors of the schools evaluated our child, discussed the lesson plan, answered many “dumb” questions that we had was extremely helpful. Several IMT that we talked to did not offer us the time or the info. There were a lot of ambiguities in their plans for kiddo, and perhaps they were poor communicators (not bad teachers) , but we did not want to entrust kiddo’s piano adventure with someone who did not have clear roadmaps.

We did not know how to evaluate teachers and having heard several “horror” stories about private teachers, we decided that it was better for kiddo to attend a well-known music school in the hope for a better selection of teachers.

The school offers a number of teachers, from one to work with young beginners to those that are conservatory-bound, so as kiddo progresses, he can have different teachers, without us having to go through the time-consuming and painful process of letting one go, and finding and hiring a new one.

Because there are multiple teachers, we can choose a timeslot that is suitable for us. Before anyone castigates us for poor parenting, let’s understand that as working parents, our available timeslots are limited. We also understood that piano study is long term, hence having a convenient time for his lessons would allow us to let him pursue it for as long as he wishes.

So, why did we quit?

1. We quit the school upon learning how poorly kiddo’s teacher, whom he has grown fond of and was progressing well under her tutelage, was treated.

2. During our two years there, we also saw incidents where kids left their lessons in tears, and did not think the environment was conducive to learning. I did not suspect any abuses, nor our kiddo ever left his lessons crying, but just thought that their motivational method was unnecessary. I talked to the director about it, and the result was parents were no longer allowed to lounge around.

3. We spent lot of time lurking at PW, so we’ve got more knowledgeable as parents re: piano study.

4.Kiddo has progressed rapidly, so he needs a teacher who has experiences in guiding more serious students. His 3rd teacher stopped offering lessons in Irvine a few months after her maternity leave. She gave us sufficient notice, but it took us quite a while to find his current teacher (because we are so knowledgeable hahaha), so kiddo did not have lessons for a month. Sometimes going with IMT is a pain.

This is my opinion based on experiences with one (1) music school in Irvine. That’s not a lot of data points, so let’s not extrapolate to “all” music schools in Irvine and “all” IMT in Irvine.

Quote:

However, same as Kevin, I started to think that less people care about ethics and moral than I had originally imagined. Especially those who think commercial music school could offer such advantage to them that IMT can’t and not care about what kind of cost or cause behind the screen.

I’m a cautious type. I and perhaps a few others here like to know both sides of a story before offering judgments. Giving different points of view or disagreeing with your assertions/opinions does not mean that we care less about ethics and morals than you do. I do find Kevin’s statement and yours quite offensive.

My profession is highly credentialed. What I've come to discover is that, in some cases, people who are highly credentialed are very accomplished at becoming highly credentialed and nothing else. Credentials aren't necessarily any sort of guarantee of competence.

Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

Quite a few professional pianists use pedal while playing Bach, so I don't know what you're talking about.

My profession is highly credentialed. What I've come to discover is that, in some cases, people who are highly credentialed are very accomplished at becoming highly credentialed and nothing else. Credentials aren't necessarily any sort of guarantee of competence.

Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

Quite a few professional pianists use pedal while playing Bach, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Andras Schiff does!

But Bach didn't. <hee, hee>

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

I apologize that if I sound I aim my comments towards you, actually, I am not. I am aiming it to this guy that thinks going to music school will have advantage compare to going to IMT even the advantage means doing dishonest acts.

According to him, if his teacher at music school is not MTAC member, it is okay to have another teacher to register for him to take CM test. He sounded like he is totally fine with this.

This is really surprise me. Currently those parents in this situation do not know they are in this situation because the crookedness of the director is not yet exposed to public.

Maybe, after the parents learn that Teacher C and D is actually register their kiddo under Teacher A and B, they will immediately stop going to music school because they can’t morally accept this fact. JUST LIKE YOU!! When you figure that your teacher is treated poorly, you stop at the music school as one of your reasons!

So, I am not aiming at you but this other guy here.

Anyway, thank you for your additional comments that really help us to see the perspective from an unbiased parent's eyes.

With your comment, I like to add on two comments as below.

I respect you so much just base on what you wrote that you quit music school just because you think your teacher is treated poorly. Just base on this fact, I just hope that all the parents can have high-moral standard as you. Now, I am curious. What do you mean treated badly? How? She is not respected? She has very low wage? She has to work long hours? She has to follow the rules that are actually illegal to enforce by her director?

I can see how badly the management of the director. Instead of investigate what happen to the kiddo, why he cried, figure out the reason and trying to fix it, the director is trying to cover up by not allowing parents are the lounge area. That is sneaky and not whole-hearty wanted the kiddo to improve his learning experience in the music school.

Of course this is just my opinions. I don't think my opinions contradict yours in this post.

Part of the reason teachers get so vicious is that in our industry, clients tend to ignore credentialing and certification.

In almost every other industry - healthcare, education, accounting, automotive repair, counseling, even yoga and pilates - people tend to check the credentials of people they go to.

Consider your own teacher, a "performance major at a local conservatory." Would you trust your taxes with an "accounting major at a local college?" Probably not. There is a perception among the public that music teachers don't need the same degree of qualification that other professionals do.

So unlike accountants and yoga instructors, music teachers have to compete with people who have no credentials and less experience, in part because clients are often more responsive to price and marketing savvy than credentials and experience.

As a result, qualified and experienced teachers feel a lot of frustration, and that can lead to some pretty vicious behavior.

Another part of the problem is that viable business models for teaching are elusive. In a way, this mirrors law and healthcare. Group practices are becoming the norm for physicians and attorneys because solo practices can't make enough money in a lot of markets. A high client volume helps keep the lights on. Many physicians are under tremendous pressure to see a LOT of patients. Attorneys end up being selective about their clientele and charge a very high hourly rate.

Similarly, music studios find it easier to keep the lights on if they can serve as many clients as possible. Since it's difficult to shorten a meeting to 10-15 minutes (like a physician) or command a high hourly rate (like an attorney), studio owners often end up hiring cheap labor, which often means hiring teachers who are willing to work for peanuts, often students or people just teaching part time.)

So...those are some random thoughts for now. I find this a rather fascinating thread. I'm pretty lucky here in the midwest. When I moved here, the local teachers were welcoming, referred students to me, and have been very supportive. There are a variety of business models here in town. I teach at home and as an independent contractor at a local music retailer. (I also do a ton of freelance accompanying and do adjunct work at a college.) There's also a non-profit pre-college conservatory in the area (an excellent Suzuki school), a preparatory program at the local university, and a smattering of independent music teachers.

I knew nothing about MTAC or CM when we started this journey, when you first attacked me. The more I learn the more I think CM itself is unethical. But that's a rabbit hole.

You were quick to make a negative character judgement of me based on no information. You did the same in your original post about Kevin's website - you have no evidence Kevin, or his opponent, or either or neither is unethical, but you've made up your mind.

From the beginning my focus with IMT vs school was quality of teaching, not ethics; while you've singlemindedly obsessed about the ethics of signing for somebody else.

I understand now that's a technical violation of MTAC rules. (check their website - it's not stated explicitly anywhere that I could find, but must be inferred). If I were an MTAC member, I would honor their ruleset, whether I agreed with all of it or not.

From the outside though it appears perfectly reasonable that a school with MTAC affiliation would have certified teachers, those working to become certified, and probably additional ones, and as a member of the school itself the student would be eligible to have someone in a responsible position sign for his test.

That's not the way MTAC works. But it IS the way many similar organizations work, and it works well. After all, if the teaching is poor the student won't pass, right? I mean, IF the test is valid and IF the scoring is accurate.

I've never lived in an area where testing was important to the consumer. Apparently in California the general public has been sold on the idea of CM. I can guess that the claims were of an objective evaluation of student progress, a way to try to maintain high standards of learning and secondarily of teaching, and a way to compare teachers on the basis of pass rates. (pass rates are published somewhere, right?)

And I can see all those claims being true, if done right. BUT! By limiting the program to its own members, MTAC has a hammer to force teachers to become members, and lock out those excellent IMTs whose students would pass at just as high or even higher rates. I call THAT unethical and unfair! I would bet this part isn't explained to the parents.

I can see how there would be pressure on teachers to find a colleague to sign for them, as this practice is not only not unethical but required in many fields. Nurse-practioners and some nurses treat patients, for example, but need an MD in the building to sign off on prescriptions. (I sign hundreds of documents for others who do the work but lack the authorization to sign - I'm required to by my job. In fact there's a 4 inch stack on my desk right now I'll have to get on the weekend) Like I said, I wouldn't do it myself if the rules were clear and I'd agreed to them; though, I'd gripe about them and maybe work to change them.

I'm not sure this type of rule breaking is as vile an ethical violation as you've made it out to be, nor that it's as common as you claim.

We know that there are excellent and poor teachers in both areas, and ethical and unethical people in both areas. (skill and ethics are two different criteria and need to be separated for clarity of thought)

Do you still maintain that the average commercial teacher is more unethical than the average IMT?

Do you think that the average commercial teacher is less skillful than the average IMT? I know you didn't really address this, but it's a more important issue to a parent, because unlike ethics, assessing teaching skill is impossible for them.

The problems EZ has outlined are predominantly located in urban areas of (mostly) southern California. I live in central CA and we have had absolutely no problems like she describes.

The major problems that come from CM stem mostly from "tiger" parents who force their children into the exam system. I've seen it personally. Parents will hop from one studio to another, thinking the teacher is largest factor in how well their child does on an exam, not the amount of time the student practices, the quality of the practice or the interest of the child. This is sad. These parents think finishing CM at its highest level guarantees great things for their child. I've had the occasional parent ask about their child skipping levels (one just this past weekend, and the not the parent of one of MY students!).

The rules you are looking for about teachers entering students that are not theirs is in the CM syllabus, only available for purchase by members. Until this year, the syllabus could be purchased outside the organization, but MTAC ran into problems with copyrighted material being plagiarized and misused, so it is no longer available outside the organization.

MTAC's goal is to promote professional music teaching. One can join if they have a degree (the transcript is evaluated for necessary coursework), or they can enroll in a program called CalPlan which is designed to make sure the teacher has sufficient knowledge and training to teach their instrument. It's pretty rigorous, but it does serve to establish a minimum standard.

You were quick to make a negative character judgement of me based on no information. You did the same in your original post about Kevin's website - you have no evidence Kevin, or his opponent, or either or neither is unethical, but you've made up your mind.

I did not attack Kevin. Ask Kevin. I do not know him, but I like what I see in his blog, that is why I posted it here to share with you.

Originally Posted By: TIM

I knew nothing about MTAC or CM when we started this journey.

If you knew nothing, why don’t you do some research before writing your comments?

This is my last post, I think this is outrageous.

Thank you ANZ, Kreisler, Hippodido, Kevin, Minniemay for a lot of explanation about how MTAC works.