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I've had something on my mind lately that disturbs me and I wanted a forum on this subject. The question is: Why would anyone WANT to hurt or kill another person? I should explain......

Something happened yesterday that made me take pause. There was a new student in our Aikido class who mostly takes Krav Maga at the same dojo. While we were paired up, we practiced kotegaeshi, and when his turn came up, he did the move, but added a rather rough end pin where he lifted me back up with a painful arm bend, which was not how we were supposed to execute. That didn't bother me much, but while he had me he said "If you want to kill someone, then do this." which was a mock hit to the thorax.

This left an impression on me all day. Now, what has been on my mind is a deep reflection on two words. Though Webster's Dictionary might not concur, I've always understood a clear distinction between "WANT" and "NEED". To me, needing to kill or harm is something necessary to preserve one's life, the life of loved ones, or property in the face of an immediate threat that cannot be quelled by reason. In times of war, needing to kill the enemy is understood. On the other side, wanting to do harm or kill another person seems to me sinister, or at least lacking in any morality that respects human life.

So then I turn my mind towards MMA and UFC fighting. I know there are members here who take part in this, so what benefit does it serve humanity to make one's living or recreation by beating the crap out of another human being? I mean, dog fighting is illegal, so what's the difference, other than it not being to the death? You CHOOSE to be there; no one is forcing you to enter the ring. Over the past fifteen years, I've watched as the blood sport has gained popularity and followers, and I can't help but feel disturbed that this is going to be the norm, where showing how brutal one can be is a demarcation of one's self worth in society.

I knew this kid many years ago who got into cage fighting. We asked him why he risked his life like that and he said "The women they give you are fine!" Really? Is that what it takes to earn the physical affections of beautiful women? Great........so one is willing to throw their humanity away for a piece of ass? Stop the car, I'm getting out here!

I live in Los Angeles. I know it is rough, and there are times when defending myself is a need. I train in Aikido not WANTING to do harm, but do so to prepare for the nut job that may drift my way in the future. Whatever the situation, I train with the goal to do as little harm to another human being in order to subdue him.

If that really is the point, then the thirteenth commandment should be changed from "Thou shalt not kill" to "Thou shalt not WANT to kill", that way more people could obey it.

I live in Los Angeles. I know it is rough, and there are times when defending myself is a need. I train in Aikido not WANTING to do harm, but do so to prepare for the nut job that may drift my way in the future. Whatever the situation, I train with the goal to do as little harm to another human being in order to subdue him.

I would hope that your primary goal if a nut job drifts your way is to survive the encounter. Putting the nut job's well being above your own may sound noble but could get you hurt or worse.

In a recent thread there was a discussion about " Madman with a Gun". Would you have the same feelings of doing as little harm to the "Madman" in order to subdue him if he entered a restaurant and shot your wife and kids?

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler

So then I turn my mind towards MMA and UFC fighting. I know there are members here who take part in this, so what benefit does it serve humanity to make one's living or recreation by beating the crap out of another human being? I mean, dog fighting is illegal, so what's the difference, other than it not being to the death?

You gave the asnwer yourself:

Quote:

You CHOOSE to be there; no one is forcing you to enter the ring.

The dogs don't get to decide. Why shouldn't two consenting adults be allowed to beat the crap out of each other? They're allowed to smoke as well. And at any point in the fight, they are allowed to give up and the fight is over.

Quote:

I can't help but feel disturbed that this is going to be the norm, where showing how brutal one can be is a demarcation of one's self worth in society.

Sportsmanship within blood sport is still appreciated. If one fighter taps out and the other guy demonstrates his brutality by breaking the arm anyhow, does he get respect or contempt?

Your counter is very weak. Yes...If I truly embrace the teachings of Aikido, I would try to subdue a madman with a gun without inflicting overkill. I've seen Aikido techniques that disable an armed gunman that turn the tables on him without extreme measures.

I am paraphrasing Alan Watts, but this whole universe depends on each and every individual. It depends on every gnat, and every vibration of every gnat's wings. If one can cherish even the smallest of creatures, then isn't it also important to respect human life to one's own capability?

Sportsmanship within blood sport is still appreciated. If one fighter taps out and the other guy demonstrates his brutality by breaking the arm anyhow, does he get respect or contempt?

If that's your thrust, then why not wrestling?...remember that sport? It doesn't require drawing blood, does it? Your defense is nothing more than a fig leaf on your testosterone. You're trying to rationalize brutality. We should seek to be better than that. Brutality is, by my view, even lower than the animal kingdom. They don't kill for pleasure; they kill for necessity.

I am paraphrasing Alan Watts, but this whole universe depends on each and every individual. It depends on every gnat, and every vibration of every gnat's wings. If one can cherish even the smallest of creatures, then isn't it also important to respect human life to one's own capability?

I have a large capability, as long as the gnats leave me alone. If they do then I won't swat them dead and the gnats and I will live in peace and harmony.

David

Last edited by dps : 07-04-2010 at 04:31 PM.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler

should be changed from "Thou shalt not kill" to "Thou shalt not WANT to kill", that way more people could obey it.[/b]

I have a theology degree, and worked with foreign missions before and during early college.
If you are talking theology, "Thou shall not kill" is the same as "Thou should not feel the urge to kill". If you want to get technical, to hate another person is considered the exact same sin as to murder, in the eyes of Hebrew law and the eyes of God, under this commandment.

I respect Krav Maga technically though.
I get what it's inventor was trying to do and why.

A friend of mine who counsels in a local prison once asked a guy what did he do that caused him his prison time. He said he was a snatch thief. Long story short, my friend found out the whole story.

This guy saw a pregnant lady getting some money from an atm. He then saw her ride her motorcycle and followed her on his. At the traffic light, he sped past her and grabbed her hand bag. She fell and injured herself.

In fact the lady went into a coma. Her husband worked outstation as a labourer and she had 10bucks in her handbag that her husband just deposited for her. The couple were actually poor people. The criminal watched her story on the news that night as he ate at a shop using her money.

When my friend asked him how did he feel about doing such a thing to a pregnant woman (whom later died with the baby). He said he didn't feel anything at all.

Now. Why do people hurt each other? Decent and normal human beings don't. Abnormal people do.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.

I've had something on my mind lately that disturbs me and I wanted a forum on this subject. The question is: Why would anyone WANT to hurt or kill another person? I should explain......

Something happened yesterday that made me take pause. There was a new student in our Aikido class who mostly takes Krav Maga at the same dojo. While we were paired up, we practiced kotegaeshi, and when his turn came up, he did the move, but added a rather rough end pin where he lifted me back up with a painful arm bend, which was not how we were supposed to execute. That didn't bother me much, but while he had me he said "If you want to kill someone, then do this." which was a mock hit to the thorax.

This left an impression on me all day. Now, what has been on my mind is a deep reflection on two words. Though Webster's Dictionary might not concur, I've always understood a clear distinction between "WANT" and "NEED". To me, needing to kill or harm is something necessary to preserve one's life, the life of loved ones, or property in the face of an immediate threat that cannot be quelled by reason. In times of war, needing to kill the enemy is understood. On the other side, wanting to do harm or kill another person seems to me sinister, or at least lacking in any morality that respects human life.

So then I turn my mind towards MMA and UFC fighting. I know there are members here who take part in this, so what benefit does it serve humanity to make one's living or recreation by beating the crap out of another human being? I mean, dog fighting is illegal, so what's the difference, other than it not being to the death? You CHOOSE to be there; no one is forcing you to enter the ring. Over the past fifteen years, I've watched as the blood sport has gained popularity and followers, and I can't help but feel disturbed that this is going to be the norm, where showing how brutal one can be is a demarcation of one's self worth in society.

I knew this kid many years ago who got into cage fighting. We asked him why he risked his life like that and he said "The women they give you are fine!" Really? Is that what it takes to earn the physical affections of beautiful women? Great........so one is willing to throw their humanity away for a piece of ass? Stop the car, I'm getting out here!

I live in Los Angeles. I know it is rough, and there are times when defending myself is a need. I train in Aikido not WANTING to do harm, but do so to prepare for the nut job that may drift my way in the future. Whatever the situation, I train with the goal to do as little harm to another human being in order to subdue him.

If that really is the point, then the thirteenth commandment should be changed from "Thou shalt not kill" to "Thou shalt not WANT to kill", that way more people could obey it.

Any other thoughts or perspectives would be greatly appreciated.

My main question is quite simple: did this student understand the distinction between "need" and "want"?

His "want" may be the same as your "need". He may "want" to harm another due to subjective understanding that if he will not, the other will get back at him\his loved ones immediately. This is the same as your "need" but under the understanding, that "need" is also subjective and not objective, hence, if you want to save ... and are thus willing to harm another, you actually want to harm tat person.
Is it possible that his causing you pain, has colored your understanding of his actual intention?

The other option to answer would talk of Sadistic people, and other insanities

Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:

I would hope that your primary goal if a nut job drifts your way is to survive the encounter. Putting the nut job's well being above your own may sound noble but could get you hurt or worse.

In a recent thread there was a discussion about " Madman with a Gun". Would you have the same feelings of doing as little harm to the "Madman" in order to subdue him if he entered a restaurant and shot your wife and kids?

David

Are you not giving specific examples to situations in which you "need" to harm another?
If you are, where is the argument?
Michael did indicate harming another because of need is acceptable. He discussed a person wanting to harm another, not harming him because one believes this is the solution to prevent harm to self or loved ones.

Something happened yesterday that made me take pause. There was a new student in our Aikido class who mostly takes Krav Maga at the same dojo. While we were paired up, we practiced kotegaeshi, and when his turn came up, he did the move, but added a rather rough end pin where he lifted me back up with a painful arm bend, which was not how we were supposed to execute. That didn't bother me much, but while he had me he said "If you want to kill someone, then do this." which was a mock hit to the thorax.

I'm going to go way, way out on a limb and venture a guess that this new student thought that physically and verbally demonstrating his pre-existing knowledge would gain him respect. What do you think? Safe bet?

It's an extremely common thing for adult beginners -- at anything -- to try to demonstrate that they're not really a beginner (although they are), or if they can't even begin to do that, to establish that they're skilled/important/experienced at something else that people should respect (e.g., they'll trot out their professional credentials, or start talking about how widely they've traveled, or begin lecturing you about philosophy). It's silly and obnoxious behavior, but almost all of us do it to some degree.

Unfortunately, we do not live in some fantasy world in which peaceful people rule the planet.... There is a Japanese expression: "katsujinken" that can be translated to mean "The sword that gives life." It is a concept that you should spend some serious time contemplating. Let me create this image for you: You and your child are walking down the street in the way to a little league game. Your child lags a couple of steps behind. You turn around to see a person running at your child with a knife. You have a bat in your hand. If you do not take out this person, this person will kill your child. What would you do?

Harmonizing with deadly intent can easily result in death. It is not some macho fantasy of toughness and it is not an issue of need or want. Need/want require some serious thought. Real life, deadly encounters rarely if ever allow for time to engage in serious thought. The sad, cold fact is that sometimes a person must kill to preserve life.

Our training should be shugyo. We should work hard at making peace with our sense of inadequacy and vulnerability (existential reality for all of us). If our spirit is clear, it is not a question of need/want. If the situation dictates that a person will die, I want to be the person wielding the sword that gives life. At the end of the day, I want to return home to my family. I have no personal problems with exploring adaptations of techniques and finishing moves that can kill a person. I would rather have useful tools if a situation ever dictates that I use them, rather than my last thoughts being sadness over not learning them because I tried to gain some higher, philosophical moral ground that the attacker conveniently was not interested in exploring.

Unfortunately, we do not live in some fantasy world in which peaceful people rule the planet.... There is a Japanese expression: "katsujinken" that can be translated to mean "The sword that gives life." It is a concept that you should spend some serious time contemplating. Let me create this image for you: You and your child are walking down the street in the way to a little league game. Your child lags a couple of steps behind. You turn around to see a person running at your child with a knife. You have a bat in your hand. If you do not take out this person, this person will kill your child. What would you do?

Harmonizing with deadly intent can easily result in death. It is not some macho fantasy of toughness and it is not an issue of need or want. Need/want require some serious thought. Real life, deadly encounters rarely if ever allow for time to engage in serious thought. The sad, cold fact is that sometimes a person must kill to preserve life.

Our training should be shugyo. We should work hard at making peace with our sense of inadequacy and vulnerability (existential reality for all of us). If our spirit is clear, it is not a question of need/want. If the situation dictates that a person will die, I want to be the person wielding the sword that gives life. At the end of the day, I want to return home to my family. I have no personal problems with exploring adaptations of techniques and finishing moves that can kill a person. I would rather have useful tools if a situation ever dictates that I use them, rather than my last thoughts being sadness over not learning them because I tried to gain some higher, philosophical moral ground that the attacker conveniently was not interested in exploring.

Marc Abrams

"The sword that kills the man is the sword that saves the man." Yes.....I'm very familiar with that concept.

I think this is a good subject to bring up because all of us benefit by being mindful of intent in our practice. I'm not only questioning the intent of those outside this circle, but also with within. For me, it is necessary that I keep the questions "What do I want by training?" and "What do I need from this training?" in my head so I keep a sense of perspective. This just reminded me of that story.............

A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin, and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"

"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.

"I am a samurai," the warrior replied.

"You, a soldier!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar."

Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword, but Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably much too dull to cut off my head."

As Nobushige drew his sword Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"

At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, sheathed his sword and bowed.

Something happened yesterday that made me take pause. There was a new student in our Aikido class who mostly takes Krav Maga at the same dojo. While we were paired up, we practiced kotegaeshi, and when his turn came up, he did the move, but added a rather rough end pin where he lifted me back up with a painful arm bend, which was not how we were supposed to execute. That didn't bother me much, but while he had me he said "If you want to kill someone, then do this." which was a mock hit to the thorax.

And maybe he just misspoke and should have said "need". I mean, really, where did all the techniques we do come from after all? Do you practice with a bokken? Do you think a sword is about *not* killing them? There are ideals then there is the messy, gray, difficult to predict "real world" (patent pending). Frankly I find myself dabbling in other arts for the express purpose of understanding the variety of techniques out there to better understand the evolution of techniques. You watch empty hand throws in some styles that end with what looks like a strike to the chest. In reality in some styles that isn't a strike -- what you don't "see" is the consistency of training in teaching someone that at that point you pull out your tanto from your obi and sink it into their neck. The "strike" at the end is a vestige of a larger context of training where students were taught consistent actions throughout a more comprehensive training that included more weapons. So that "strike" ain't really a love-tap, now is it... Nor is it a strike really. It would be a killing blow.

Obviously someone "wanting" to kill in the sense of being excited about the possibility of actually doing it raises troublesome questions about someone's mental state. But if we recognize that there are dangerous situations and if we are training with the intent of doing something more than attaining a blissful oneness with the universe you might "want" to know *how* to kill. That does not mean you have a *desire* to kill, just that you have a desire for the knowledge and ability should the situation arise where it becomes necessary.

"The sword that kills the man is the sword that saves the man." Yes.....I'm very familiar with that concept.

I think this is a good subject to bring up because all of us benefit by being mindful of intent in our practice. I'm not only questioning the intent of those outside this circle, but also with within. For me, it is necessary that I keep the questions "What do I want by training?" and "What do I need from this training?" in my head so I keep a sense of perspective. This just reminded me of that story.............

A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin, and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"

"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.

"I am a samurai," the warrior replied.

"You, a soldier!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar."

Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword, but Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably much too dull to cut off my head."

As Nobushige drew his sword Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"

At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, sheathed his sword and bowed.

"Here open the gates of paradise," said Hakuin.

Michael:

The story that you mention talks about the necessity of training as shugyo. The samurai displayed unnecessary anger and this did not make him more capable but less capable and vulnerable.

My training has made me a more peaceful, calm person. That has always been my aim. That being said, it is not my choice as the philosophical approach of an attacker. I need to remain centered and act decisively. Those are lofty goals that require a lot of mindful training. At the end of the day, I like being a son, father, and grandfather for another day ! That is a gift that I seek to enjoy each and every day.

I have often told my students that Aikido helps us to enjoy a "Chinese menu" when confronted with conflict. Instead of only having one mode of response, it allows us to be open to a multitude of possibilities. Being centered, connected to the attacker and in the moment should allow the natural "menu" choice to emerge.

And maybe he just misspoke and should have said "need". I mean, really, where did all the techniques we do come from after all? Do you practice with a bokken? Do you think a sword is about *not* killing them? There are ideals then there is the messy, gray, difficult to predict "real world" (patent pending). Frankly I find myself dabbling in other arts for the express purpose of understanding the variety of techniques out there to better understand the evolution of techniques. You watch empty hand throws in some styles that end with what looks like a strike to the chest. In reality in some styles that isn't a strike -- what you don't "see" is the consistency of training in teaching someone that at that point you pull out your tanto from your obi and sink it into their neck. The "strike" at the end is a vestige of a larger context of training where students were taught consistent actions throughout a more comprehensive training that included more weapons. So that "strike" ain't really a love-tap, now is it... Nor is it a strike really. It would be a killing blow.

Obviously someone "wanting" to kill in the sense of being excited about the possibility of actually doing it raises troublesome questions about someone's mental state. But if we recognize that there are dangerous situations and if we are training with the intent of doing something more than attaining a blissful oneness with the universe you might "want" to know *how* to kill. That does not mean you have a *desire* to kill, just that you have a desire for the knowledge and ability should the situation arise where it becomes necessary.

You certainly have no argument from me on your points. They are very clear indeed, and there are dangerous situations to prepare for. I have no allusions about this. "Blissful oneness with the universe" may be pushing it a bit, but religion and O-Sensei seemed to hold it in high regard.

I would write off the student's actions as a mix up of words, but then there was that rough arm hold at the end that made me feel quite uncomfortable. It was if I could feel his deepest intent by trying to "dog me down" you might say.

Quote:

I'm going to go way, way out on a limb and venture a guess that this new student thought that physically and verbally demonstrating his pre-existing knowledge would gain him respect. What do you think? Safe bet?

I completely agree. I still fail to see a NEED for this, but you are on the mark.

The story that you mention talks about the necessity of training as shugyo. The samurai displayed unnecessary anger and this did not make him more capable but less capable and vulnerable.

My training has made me a more peaceful, calm person. That has always been my aim. That being said, it is not my choice as the philosophical approach of an attacker. I need to remain centered and act decisively. Those are lofty goals that require a lot of mindful training. At the end of the day, I like being a son, father, and grandfather for another day ! That is a gift that I seek to enjoy each and every day.

I have often told my students that Aikido helps us to enjoy a "Chinese menu" when confronted with conflict. Instead of only having one mode of response, it allows us to be open to a multitude of possibilities. Being centered, connected to the attacker and in the moment should allow the natural "menu" choice to emerge.

Marc Abrams

Great! I'll have the paper wrapped chicken, orange peel beef, and the house special fried rice. Can you do that to go?

Seriously though, I too have found some surprising illuminations from training again. I suppose I'm striving for the optimum, that way, if I fall short, I can still achieve something better.

It's an extremely common thing for adult beginners -- at anything -- to try to demonstrate that they're not really a beginner (although they are), or if they can't even begin to do that, to establish that they're skilled/important/experienced at something else that people should respect (e.g., they'll trot out their professional credentials, or start talking about how widely they've traveled, or begin lecturing you about philosophy). It's silly and obnoxious behavior, but almost all of us do it to some degree.

I also have no issue with dealing with folks that need to go away permanently.

Unfortunately, there are some very bad people in the world.

WANT vs NEED

well it could be semantics. I definitely don't WANT to kill anyone that doesn't need killing. However, some people NEED to be killed as they are very bad, and I really WANT to do that if they NEED it.

How does that impact my Kharma? Well, it does, but I sleep well at night. I try and make sure to live a good life that is balanced and I try to live right and compassionately.

I think the world Needs people that are willing to stick up for the oppressed, weak, and seemingly helpless and show them that there is hope.

Unfortunately, in this day and age not everyone cares that we want to be peaceful and compassionate.

I hope that one day we can have a world in which everyone can get along and there is no need for violence, harm, or killing.

I think/hope that Aikido represents a meaningful way in order to teach us to be strong, have courage, and to look deeper into understanding the hard/tough issues. I also hope it gives us courage to resolve to act in the right manner when this needs to occur. We need people that are able to do this in the world.

I think that philosophically one day, that the world will not need aikido anymore once we have transcended conflict. Budo/AIkido is a bridge.

Unfortunately, I also think that alot of folks misinterpret and develop revisionistic visions of what it means to resolve conflict and begin to think that all conflict can be resolved peacefully.

A noble thought, but not realistic in today's world.

The life giving sword is much more complex I think, than most want to believe...it requires much more than simply a presence. It requires a WILLINGNESS to do Harm in order to STOP harm.

As a father and grandfather, there is nothing more important to me than trying to leave this world as a safer, more peaceful place for my children and their children to live in. I am profoundly disturbed by the state of the world today. My using Aikido as my vehicle to help achieve my stated goals might have nothing to do with having to address world problems in which peace, love and understanding unfortunately don't fit. I may love peace and I may seek understanding where ignorance exists, however, if a person is attacking me, all of that goes out the window until I can insure that my safety is secured.

As a father and grandfather, there is nothing more important to me than trying to leave this world as a safer, more peaceful place for my children and their children to live in. I am profoundly disturbed by the state of the world today. My using Aikido as my vehicle to help achieve my stated goals might have nothing to do with having to address world problems in which peace, love and understanding unfortunately don't fit. I may love peace and I may seek understanding where ignorance exists, however, if a person is attacking me, all of that goes out the window until I can insure that my safety is secured.