When I was talking about the medium-strength flours in relation to high-gluten flour, I was speaking generally, with an emphasis on the gradations in crust characteristics and features (including textural effects), flavor and color that one can reasonably expect going from a high-gluten flour to a slightly less strong flour. Had I also mentioned all-purpose flour, which was also used for classic NY style pizzas before high-gluten flour gained popularity, the same gradations of crust characteristics and features could be expected in relation to the stronger flours.

As I mentioned earlier, you now find yourself at a crossroads. Whenever I see or hear the word "crossroads", I am reminded of the old Woody Allen joke:

More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.

I'm hoping that there is a second choice for you to have available for the NY style at market.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the links from Evelyne. I have the Occident flour, Better for Bread flour, and also the Ceresota flour at home and could try out either one or all of them in some kind of formulation for Tuesday. I could always purchase a 50 lb. bag of Gold Medal Full Strength flour for future experiments. I really haven’t formed any opinions on any of those flours because I haven’t tried them out in various different formulations.

I know I am at a crossroads and always want to try and improve on a NY style pizza for market. I don’t think I am ever a quitter in trying anything when it comes to pizza.

Do you have any opinions on which flour or flours I should try first and in what kind of formulation? I am willing to try any hydration and also turn the deck oven up in temperature if you think that might help.

I think any of the flours you mentioned should be reasonable as a starting point. I think I might pick the Occident, and go from there. You also have any number of possibilities for a starting dough formulation. A modified Lehmann NY style dough formulation along the lines that Steve came up with would make a reasonable starting point but you can modify even that one to meet your particular needs. As you know from the Pepe's dough, you don't really need any oil or sugar to make a decent NY style pizza. But if you like tenderness in the crust beyond what the flour will give you, you can use say, 1-3% oil. I personally like a good olive oil because of its richness and flavor, but just about any oil, or oil blend, should be suitable. Maybe even some lard instead if oil. Salt quantity is personal. Middle of the road is about 1.75% but more or less than that can be used depending on what you think your customers might find acceptable. I personally like the wheaty flavor in a crust, which too much salt can masquerade, but I know that some people have been so conditioned by food processors and chefs/cooks to high salt levels that they have essentially become addicted to high salt levels.

I think I would pass on the sugar in the dough the first go-around and assess whether it might help next time based on your results. Usually, you have to add a lot of sugar to detect it in the finished crust. I personally don't think you want that in a NY style crust. Tom Lehmann advocates adding sugar to the dough once the cold fermentation period is to go out beyond two to three days and maybe by by that time the yeast needs more food. But some people just like sugar even if they can't detect it. You might get added color, but the slices that many NY pizzerias sell don't really have that much color in the rim.

For yeast, the classic yeast for the New York style was cake yeast. But, for your volume at market, IDY is cheaper and more convenient. But, whichever yeast you use, you ideally want to get a decent rise out of the dough, maybe a double, and you want that condition to be achieved when you are ready to use the dough. If you measure the time that it takes your dough to double, in hours, maybe we can do some calculations to adjust the amount of yeast for your particular schedule.

For hydration, I think I would start at around 63%. You can always adjust around that number, either up or down, based on your results. I don't think that you would have to change your oven temperature at 63% hydration.

For thickness factor, unless you would like to use a value such as you use for your preferment Lehmann dough so that part doesn't change, you might start with 0.08 and adjust from there based on your results. An 18" size would be a good pizza size in my opinion.

I think any of the flours you mentioned should be reasonable as a starting point. I think I might pick the Occidental, and go from there. You also have any number of possibilities for a starting dough formulation. A modified Lehmann NY style dough formulation along the lines that Steve came up with would make a reasonable starting point but you can modify even that one to meet your particular needs. As you know from the Pepe's dough, you don't really need any oil or sugar to make a decent NY style pizza. But if you like tenderness in the crust beyond what the flour will give you, you can use say, 1-3% oil. I personally like a good olive oil because of its richness and flavor, but just about any oil, or oil blend, should be suitable. Maybe even some lard instead if oil. Salt quantity is personal. Middle of the road is about 1.75% but more or less than that can be used depending on what you think your customers might find acceptable. I personally like the wheaty flavor in a crust, which too much salt can masquerade, but I know that some people have been so conditioned by food processors and chefs/cooks to high salt levels that they have essentially become addicted to high salt levels.

I think I would pass on the sugar in the dough the first go-around and assess whether it might help next time based on your results. Usually, you have to add a lot of sugar to detect it in the finished crust. I personally don't think you want that in a NY style crust. Tom Lehmann advocates adding sugar to the dough once the cold fermentation period is to go out beyond two to three days and maybe by by that time the yeast needs more food. But some people just like sugar even if they can't detect it. You might get added color, but the slices that many NY pizzerias sell don't really have that much color in the rim.

For yeast, the classic yeast for the New York style was cake yeast. But, for your volume at market, IDY is cheaper and more convenient. But, whichever yeast you use, you ideally want to get a decent rise out of the dough, maybe a double, and you want that condition to be achieved when you are ready to use the dough. If you measure the time that it takes your dough to double, in hours, maybe we can do some calculations to adjust the amount of yeast for your particular schedule.

For hydration, I think I would start at around 63%. You can always adjust around that number, either up or down, based on your results. I don't think that you would have to change your oven temperature at 63% hydration.

For thickness factor, unless you would like to use a value such as you use for your preferment Lehmann dough so that part doesn't change, you might start with 0.08 and adjust from there based on your results. An 18" size would be a good pizza size in my opinion.

As you can see, you have all kinds of options.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for all the options in helping me come up with another formulation. I will use the Occident flour for the first test. I guess I will try around 1% oil, no sugar, and maybe about 1.85% salt in the formulation for a 18” NY style pizza. I can try to purchase some more cake yeast or use the frozen cake yeast I have.

Good to hear you will be able to do some calculations if I watch to see how long it takes the dough to double. Do you want me to do the “poppy seed” method for the first attempt, or just watch the dough?

Thanks for telling me you don’t think at 63% hydration that I will need to change the oven temperature. I will start out with a TF of 0.08 and base the results from there.

Good to hear you will be able to do some calculations if I watch to see how long it takes the dough to double. Do you want me to do the “poppy seed” method for the first attempt, or just watch the dough?

Norma,

It is up to you which method you want to use. You might use both methods simultaneously, and measure the poppy seed spacing when the dough appears to be where you would like to use it (and note the number of hours it took to get to that point). I mentioned a doubling of the dough only because it is a classic benchchmark. A doubling is also easy for most people to recognize visually for most doughs with normal hydration values.

BTW, the reason I suggested the Occident flour is because it is bromated yet, at 12.4%, is within the bread flour range in terms of protein. I believe you previously reported that your Occident flour is unbleached. That is somewhat uncommon for bromated flours although the Gold Medal Full Strength flour that I mentioned earlier (see http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FULL%20STRENGTH%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf) is also a bromated flour that is available unbleached. Its protein content is 12.6% and, hence, in the bread flour protein range. I mention this just as a factual matter, not to suggest that you rush out to purchase some. In such a case, I would perhaps go with the bleached version since it was bleached flours that the early NYC pizza masters used. Of course, you may eventually decide that neither bromated or bleached flours are what you want to use.

It is up to you which method you want to use. You might use both methods simultaneously, and measure the poppy seed spacing when the dough appears to be where you would like to use it (and note the number of hours it took to get to that point). I mentioned a doubling of the dough only because it is a classic benchchmark. A doubling is also easy for most people to recognize visually for most doughs with normal hydration values.

BTW, the reason I suggested the Occident flour is because it is bromated yet, at 12.4%, is within the bread flour range in terms of protein. I believe you previously reported that your Occident flour is unbleached. That is somewhat uncommon for bromated flours although the Gold Medal Full Strength flour that I mentioned earlier (see http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FULL%20STRENGTH%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf) is also a bromated flour that is available unbleached. Its protein content is 12.6% and, hence, in the bread flour protein range. I mention this just as a factual matter, not to suggest that you rush out to purchase some. In such a case, I would perhaps go with the bleached version since it was bleached flours that the early NYC pizza masters used. Of course, you may eventually decide that neither bromated or bleached flours are what you want to use.

Peter

Peter,

I can use both methods simultaneously to see how the dough ferments.

I still am not sure if the Occident flour is bleached or unbleached. On the label of the plastic bag it says that it is bromated and bleached, but as you may recall, I had some other problems at the Country Store with flours not being labeled right. If I remember this coming week, I will try to call the Country Store to confirm if the Occident flour is bleached or unbleached. I had tried out the Occident flour in another of my threads and did like the results, but didn’t pursue that flour many times. I also think Dave (dmcavanagh) likes the Occident flour.

I might be purchasing a bag of Gold Medal Full Strength flour to try out in the coming weeks.

This is the formulation I used for the first attempt at a pre-1970’s NY style pizza. I used the Occident bleached and bromated flour. I did use IDY in the formulation because if these pizzas ever turn out right, IDY will be easier for me to use. I mixed the dough in my Kitchen Aid mixer and mixed for 8 minutes. When the dough ball was formed it looked like the cottage cheese stage. I did use the “poppy seed” trick and also wrote down what time the dough ball went into the fridge. The final dough temperature was 75.0 degrees F.

I did call the Country Store this morning and the owner of the Country Store told me they sell the Occident flour in the bleached and unbleached versions. I guess I didn’t look hard enough at the Occident flours before and just picked up the bleached and bromated one, because they have so many flours at the Country Store. Should I purchase some of the Occident unbleached for my next attempt?

I did call the Country Store this morning and the owner of the Country Store told me they sell the Occident flour in the bleached and unbleached versions. I guess I didn’t look hard enough at the Occident flours before and just picked up the bleached and bromated one, because they have so many flours at the Country Store. Should I purchase some of the Occident unbleached for my next attempt?

Norma,

At this point, let's go with the bleached version of the Occident flour since the old NY style pizza doughs were made with bleached flours mostly. You can later decide whether you want to try the unbleached version.

At this point, let's go with the bleached version of the Occident flour since the old NY style pizza doughs were made with bleached flours mostly. You can later decide whether you want to try the unbleached version.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for letting me know to go with the bleached bromated Occident flour for now. I guess I didn’t know old style NY style pizzas were made with bleached flours mostly. I have a lot to learn about old style NY pizzas.

Wow Pete and Norma, you guys are pizza scientists! Really enjoy your experiments. I have at times used 24hr cold ferment with my pizza gig 3 nights a week. I usually make my dough Sun. afternoon for Tues. night cooking and have leftovers for Wed. night cooking, depending on sales i make more dough on Tues. night for Thurs. night cook. I have had to make dough the night before and it worked out ok but prefer at least a 2 day cold ferment. I use a standard Lehmans N.Y. style. Have been playing around with sugar and oil quite a bit, sometimes no oil or suger and sometimes only oil and no sugar etc. I am currently using AllTrumps(both bromated and nonbromated), 58% water, .3% SAF IDY,2% salt and 1.5% oil. I cook at 550 deg. I have not seen any difference by using sugar and not using it so far. Not sure about the oil either. I have tried not using sugar or oil but still looking for the difference. My next batch will be just flour, IDY, salt and water to keep it simple, if that works fine then i will keep it like that for simplicity. The last time that i only used flour, water, IDY and salt i think i had no difference there too but will see next batch. With all formulations used my crusts taste good to me but am trying to fine tune my tastebuds to see if the diff ingredients mean anything.....Norma and Pete, to me you both are high class pizza people.

Thank you for the nice compliments. Norma and I have been willing accomplices since about the time she joined the forum. Her inquisitive mind and her endless energy and enormous capacity for work have kept me on my toes, and my fingers on the calculator and on the computer keyboard. I have learned and done things that would not have happened if it weren't for Norma. She is one in million. And her buddy Steve (Ev) ain't too shabby either .

Thank you also for your nice compliments! If it wasn’t for Peter and other members of this forum I would not have gotten anywhere, because my math is really poor. I just like to experiment to see what happens. I think somewhere is a former life I must have been a scientist that somehow lost how to do the math. Seriously, I think I get the experimenting part from my dad. He was always a tinker and inventor. Peter has been like Thelma and I am like Louise. He keeps us from going off the cliff.

Thank you for the nice compliments. Norma and I have been willing accomplices since about the time she joined the forum. Her inquisitive mind and her endless energy and enormous capacity for work have kept me on my toes, and my fingers on the calculator and on the computer keyboard. I have learned and done things that would not have happened if it weren't for Norma. She is one in million. And her buddy Steve (Ev) ain't too shabby either .

Peter

Peter,

Thank you also for your kind words. Sorry to have you on your toes, fingers on the calculator and also on the keyboard so much. You also have gotten me to do things I never dreamed of doing before and I appreciate that.

I may be able to get to Root's tomorrow Norma. What time do pizzas start coming out of the oven? Mark

Mark,

Great if you can come to Root's tomorrow. I would love to meet you. The pizzas start coming out of the oven about 9:30-10:00 am. Steve gets to market about 12:00 pm. If you want to play with the dough, you are more than welcome. The experiments usually go on in the afternoon if you want to try them.

I keep the experimental old NY style dough ball at home so I could watch how it cold ferments until tomorrow. After 8 hours the “poppy seed” test measures almost 1 ˝ “. I don’t know if the dough is fermenting to fast or not.

I keep the experimental old NY style dough ball at home so I could watch how it cold ferments until tomorrow. After 8 hours the “poppy seed” test measures almost 1 ˝ “. I don’t know if the dough is fermenting to fast or not.

Norma,

Can you tell me what kind of container you are using to store the dough ball? The 1 1/2" spacing would suggest a tripling of the volume of the dough. Is that confirmed visually?

Can you tell me what kind of container you are using to store the dough ball? The 1 1/2" spacing would suggest a tripling of the volume of the dough. Is that confirmed visually?

Peter

Peter,

The container is a plastic Rubbermaid container that says on the bottom 6.2 cups or 1.4 L. I used my small scale to do the measurement for the IDY, so that was accurate. I didn’t take the dough ball out of the fridge except to take the pictures since right after the ball last evening. This is another picture I just took of how the sides and bottom of dough ball look in the container of the old NY style dough ball fermenting. Do you think it is fermenting too fast? It sure looks like it is to me. The dough ball does look like it might have almost tripled in volume.

If you confirmed visually what the seed spacing is indicating, then it is quite possible that the dough has tripled. I thought perhaps that you were using one of your food-grade storage bags.

I'm surprised that your dough has expanded as fast as it has with the yeast at 0.55%. Did you go to the refrigerator right after the dough was made? A tripling of the dough is not fatal but we don't want it to get out of hand. Let's see what happens when you are ready to use the dough tomorrow. You may not need much of a temper time, and we can always make adjustment to the yeast quantity next time if called for based on your results.

The container is a plastic Rubbermaid container that says on the bottom 6.2 cups or 1.4 L. I used my small scale to do the measurement for the IDY, so that was accurate. I didn’t take the dough ball out of the fridge except to take the pictures since right after the ball last evening. This is another picture I just took of how the sides and bottom of dough ball look in the container of the old NY style dough ball fermenting. Do you think it is fermenting too fast? It sure looks like it is to me. The dough ball does look like it might have almost tripled in volume.

Norma

Maybe you may be on your way to a good 1 day cold fermenting dough with that kind of rise. Maybe a bit less yeast next time? I am no pro but i have not yet used a .55% yeast in my dough, even for a 1 day cold ferment. The highest i used yet is .35%. I am thinking though that for my next 1 day cold ferment using .4%. The last time i used a 1 day ferment i used .35 idy and 85deg dough out of the mixer and that seemed to work ok. I have been making extra dough for the 2-3 day ferment so i haven't needed a 1day ferment latley.