Orthodox Ukraines ,Don't Hate The Russian Orthodox Church or your Russian Orthodox Brothers and Sisters in the Faith...If You Must Hate, Hate the Ukrainian Eastern Catholics that are working against Holy Orthodoxy and its demise..........

Hate is such a strong word. lol

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Wow! Encouraging us to HATE anyone is a sin. As I have said a million times - I do NOT HATE ANYONE!

What is wrong with you people!?!

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Beginning from that monk Philotheus, and his patron, Tsar Vasiliy "The One In The Dark" (he was blind), the court of the High Principality of Muscovy began to pursue the goal of becoming the Third Rome. So, they stole the name "Rus'", because they wanted to look like legitimate successors,

Stole? It was theirs, as legitimate heirs, Rurikid successors of their ancestor, St Vladimir/Volodymyr.

I am not arguing that the Rurikids who reigned over Suzdal and Ryazan' etc. were not the same family as the ones who were in Kyiv or Chernihiv. What I am saying is that the PEOPLE who lived in the domains ruled by prince Yuriy the Long Hands or by prince Andrei "Bogolubski" (that bloody bastard who burned Kyiv and stole our icon of the Most Holy Mother of God of Vysh'horod) were different from Rusy-Rusyny-Rusychi.

Really? Well according to this map here:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/East_Slavic_tribes_peoples_8th_9th_century.jpgthere is quite a lot of Eastern Slavic tribes running around in what is now Russia (reaching up to Moscow) before the arrival of the Rus' (862), and a number of Turkic Bulgars running around what is now in Ukraine: Kiev was paying tribute to the Turkic Khazars when the Rus' arrived.For comparison:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Kievan-rus-1015-1113-%28en%29.pnghttp://www.taiwandna.com/RussianEarlyRusMap.pngThe area we are interested in is, on the top right map, the purple Rostov Principality, Great Russia's embryo. The bottom map shows in red "slavic settlements under Varangian [i.e. Rus'] control," east slavonic tribes in grey. The slavs had already gone from wandering tribes to settlers in grads, reaching to what was becoming the principality of Rostov-Suzdal-Vladimir-Moscow, so much that my and Quisling's ancestors knew the land ruled by our Varangian slavisized cousins, i.e. the Rus', as "the realm of towns/kingdom of cities":Garðaríki. Btw, Quisling's and my great-grandmother's homeland got its name as the Northway, Norðvegr. Your homeland (and Putin's homeland) had the name Austrvegr "Eastway," but it didn't stick.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grad_(Slavic_settlement)That pattern and movement predated Rus' rule of Kiev, even before the Rus' reached Kiev, and continued until it reached California.And yes, the Finns were there, and in Sitka/New Archangel, Mother See of America, even as governors.

Gentics studies, alas, do not blame the Finns for the Russians:the same frequencies of the R1a haplogroup are found among Russians as Ukrainians, 48-54% .It seems the Slavs oozing in Ukraine were oozing in Russia as well.

Btw, everywhere else dynasties determine nations. No Hapsburgs, no Austria. No King of France, no France. No King of Spain, no Spain. Russia is different?

Their names and their toponyms are convincing enough: Merya, Ves', Chud', Tot'ma, Moskva (Finnish for "rotten water"), Ryazan' (Erzya), Murom, Perm', etc. All these toponyms are not Slavic but Finnish.

Chicago, Peoria, Cahokia, Kaskaskia, Illinois, etc. All these toponyms are not English but Amerindian, Algonquian to be exact. But the American Indian and Alaska Native persons only make up .4% of the just under 13 million in IL. A reason for that is the English, unlike the Rus'/Russians, tended to exterminate before colonizing. The Illinois themselves are just 2,861, now in Oklahoma.

The spelling is French (hence not "Shikago," "Illinoy" etc.). That's because the French came here and ruled the "Pays des Illinois." Southern Illinois still has a lot of French toponyms: the oldest structure in the state still standing is at the Fort de Chartres at Prairie du Rocher, once the capital. When Illinois became a state, half the white population was French, and one of them was elected the first Lieutenant Governor. Two centuries later, they make only 2.6% of the population here, and a third of that is via Canada.

So, it's OK if the rulers like St. Vladimir, Yaroslav the Wise, etc. are slavicized and intermarry with the slavic stock, but not OK for the common population (like the pre-slavic population you posit for Moscow). What would Kostomarov say? How collectivist and autocratic of you!

Let’s see; in the first place, were we, Ukrainians and Russians, really related in terms of “blood” (ethnicity)? Well, look at the map of Eastern Europe of the 9th – 10th centuries. It tells you that Slavic tribes – Polyany, Drevlyany, Dregovychy, Radymychy, Kryvychy, Polochany, Volynyany, - inhabited what is now Ukraine and Belarus. To the east and to the north of them, there were Ugro-Finnish tribes with their entirely different language and culture; Chud’, Ves’, Merya, Cheremisy, Mordva, Perm’, Yam, and others. Nestor the Chronicle-Writer indicates exactly that (see “The Chronicle of Times,” chapter 25, paragraph 6). Those tribes had absolutely no relation to Slavs. They were not very highly developed socially and they had no government or administration of their own that would be in any way sustainable. So, they had to invite Scandinavians to rule over them (“come and rule us”). Yet, Kyiv Rus’ had no need in the “help” of this kind. By that time (9th – 10th centuries), it became so powerful as a state of Europe that it threatened even the Byzantine Empire. Sadly, in a few decades, Prince Oleg, a Scandinavian, treacherously murdered Kyiv princes Askol’d and Dir and conquered Kyiv. Yet, your Metropolitan +AGATHANGEL says, “”The Kyiv Rus’ has ALWAYS been ONE with the Great Russia (i.e. with what was to the northeast of it). Kyiv (or, as he writes “Kiev”) without the Great Russia, in the state of separation from her, can not be conceived in any case.” But… isn’t it just ridiculous? Just look – there was NO “Great Russia” in the 9th – 10th century; in fact, there was NO “RUSSIA” WHATSOEVER!!! What really existed, was Kyivan Rus’ and her people – Rusychy, Rusyny (i.e. the present-day Ukrainians and Belarussians). So, what exactly is it – stupidity? Complete ignorance? Or Ukrainophobia that simply cannot be stopped? I think it’s a mixture of all three. Stupidity always marches together with hatred and haughtiness.

But let us continue our historical overview. Later, in the 12th – 13th centuries, because of peculiar historical circumstances (fighting between feudal lords, Mongol-Tatar onslaught), Slavs began to oose into the lands to the east and north from Kyiv Rus’ – and so the Slavic blood began to penetrate into the veins of the above-mentioned Ugro-Finnish tribes. When Mongols destroyed Kyiv (in the 1240-s), the center of the social and political life of Eastern Slavs migrated to a more isolated and protected Northeast, and so the gradual growth of Moscow began. From us, from Kyiv Rus’, your people received the Slavic blood, the Christian faith and the education of the populace. Do you need me to tell you about who were the first Enlighteners of your lands? I don’t think so. I’ll just mention a few, in passing: +PETER, Metropolitan of Muscovy – a native of the Volyn Region of what is now Ukraine; +IOASAPH of “Begorod” (actually Bilhorod, Ukraine); +INNOCENT of Irkutsk – also a Ukrainian; +STEPHAN (Yavors’kyj) – also a Ukrainian, from Halychyna, Western Ukraine; +THEOPHAN (Prokopovych) – also a Ukrainian; even M.V. Lomonosov (a Russian, from Arkhangel’sk, the founder of the Moscow State University), not being an ethnic Ukrainian, got his education… again, in Ukraine!!!

(I'll deal with his other factual errors, Lord willing later).

But yes, it is a tangent, in as much as an adopted son is a son. So a Finn who was baptized by St. Vladimir/Volodymyr's Church, swore fealty to Yuriy the Long Hands' heirs, and took up their language and culture is a Rus' as much as a Severian tribesman who was baptism by Metropolitan St. Michael in the Dnieper at Kiev.

As a side note, this zero-sum game that Fr. V. and others never tire of playing, trying to play Russia into a all or nothing corner, is foolish as it tests Russia's ability to play winner take all. And Russia has more than proven it can play that very well.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 07:48:39 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

How does it make you feel that because of all your "anti-Ukrainian" feelings you have made IvanMazepa who just joined the forum, leave?

Why is that everyone claims they "don't have a dog in this fight", "aren't Ukrainian or Russian", etc....however, always seem to pull for Russia.

Again, I have nothing against Russia, I do not hate Russia/Russians, or anyone else for that matter.

HOWEVER, why is it that everyone's avatar states which "Church" they belong to - Russian, Polish, Serb, Ethiopian, etc. Are these not "nations"? Why is all of that okay, but, God forbid that Ukraine should have a Ukrainian Church.

Why are you all so anti-Ukrainian? Why is it that if you love Russia, you must hate Ukraine? Why?

Why is Russia so insecure that it can't imagine letting Ukraine go?

Seriously!

You all attack me and Heorhij so many times as being "not Orthodox"...because we are nationalistic Ukrainians! Seriously?!? Where do you get off saying that, when you are Serbian Orthodox? Romainian Orthodox? OCAmerica? Russian Orthodox? None of you refer to yourselves as "just" Orthodox.

How dare you throw stones!

Amen, to that, sister!

Unfortunately, as long as Russia has her oil-and-gas-derived wealth and nuclear weapons, a lot of people will keep throwing stones at Ukraine...

I keep on asking you Heorhij, where is my oil and gas check from the KGB? I haven't been receiving them.

Ukraine never got recognition for its self consecrated church in 1921. The Soviets got the bomb in 1949. What was holding us all back those 28 years?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Polish were Always Biased toward Holy Russia what else is new,,,I love Ukraine and its people ,what i don't like is the division in Holy Orthodoxy....and the Eastern Catholics Taking advantage of it .with all the infighting..Wake Up...

Personally, I find these arguments, "you put your nationality in front of your faith," absolutely meaningless. We (pani Liza, Cossack, IvanMazepa, me) just happen to HAVE a sense of ethnic Ukrainian identity and we do not see any reason why this identity must be abandoned or suppressed. Again, for a Russian Orthodox, it's OK to be not "just" Orthodox but a Russian Orthodox. Why cannot a Ukrainian Orthodox be a Ukrainian Orthodox? If I love my daughter, does it mean that I am putting this love ahead of my love for my wife or mother? ))

If you love your car more than your wife it is a problem.

Your approach is different from LizaSymonenko's. She knows, where the boarder line is, you seem to not know.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Your approach is different from LizaSymonenko's. She knows, where the boarder line is, you seem to not know.

Pani Liza lives in the USA and thus has the opportunity to go to a canonical UOC-USA, which is not anti-Ukrainian. If she lived in Odesa, she would definitely not go to a parish of the canonical "U"OC where the priest would tell her that Ukraine does not really exist and her "spiritual center" is in Moscow.

Silly me! Why would I have thought you were referring to me. You had only quoted my post, and then added your comments below.

My mistake.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Your approach is different from LizaSymonenko's. She knows, where the boarder line is, you seem to not know.

Pani Liza lives in the USA and thus has the opportunity to go to a canonical UOC-USA, which is not anti-Ukrainian. If she lived in Odesa, she would definitely not go to a parish of the canonical "U"OC where the priest would tell her that Ukraine does not really exist and her "spiritual center" is in Moscow.

In her posts she's been expressing her dislike towards KP and I suppose she would choose the canonical Church.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

But you did not answer my question. Are you ready to denounce being Belarussian? Does Belarus' mean so little to you that you compare her with a car?

And, based on what pani Liza always writes about being Ukrainian, can you really imagine her in a parish where a priest systematically insults the patriotic feelings of Ukrainians? (I am not saying that ALL UOC parishes are like that, but in some regions of Ukraine - Odesa, Donbas, - almost all of them are aggressively Ukrainophobic.)

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

All of you know me well enough that you KNOW I would always put my Faith over and above my nationality.

However....

If my priest were to constantly berate me and try to remind me that there is no Ukraine, and try to convince me that I am Russian, etc....I would have to leave that church.NOT so much because my national pride was hurt....but, because I was being harassed and belittled and would not be able find the peace that my soul requires. How can one focus on prayer when you are demeaned all the time?

IF it is that important that we separate Church and State...then that priest has no business telling me anything about Ukraine or Russia, and he needs to simply preach the Word of God and nothing else.

I would not sit idly by. I would do my best to open his eyes to reality and fix his misconceptions about Ukraine.

I have been known to stand my ground, even with priests, when I have found my nationality belittled, or my Faith for that matter.Yes, my Faith. On numerous occasions I have found myself defending "Slavs"....including the Russian Orthodox Church....for our "fanatic" version of Orthodoxy. To be honest I would prefer Russian Orthodox to many other "american" versions who have lapsed in their traditions and adherence to the canons.

I am Orthodox first, Ukrainian second. But, I AM Ukrainian. The two are indivisible for me. I cannot be anything but Orthodox, nor can I (or will I) be anything but Ukrainian.

What hurts me most is that the members of this forum just love to defend Russia, when nobody is attacking her.

Why are you all so dead-set against Ukraine having an independent Church?

Why do you feel Russia needs to be defended so vehemently? Why are you all so defensive all the time?

Instead of telling us Russia is right, and Ukraine is wrong....why not accept that this group of people, who call themselves Ukrainian, would like to see an independent church on their land. What would it hurt? Is Russia in such dyer straights that losing Ukraine, would ruin Russia?

Why not support Ukraine, and thereby, strengthen Orthodoxy, by strengthening the Orthodox?

If you were black and found yourself in a white church, with a white priest telling you that white is best, and black...well...that's just a poor relation....would you stand for it? If you were told that black folks don't deserve a church all their own, because they really are just white, but, won't admit it. Would you stand for that?

Is race more important than Faith?

Would you defend your race? Or would you be meek and just be a good Orthodox, and accept that being black is inferior? Would you look at your black skin and convince yourself that in fact you are not black...but, are white?

I know...I can hear your thoughts....skin color is what you are born with ....it's different than some sense of nationality. Well, it's not. I was born Ukrainian. I didn't choose to be Ukrainian (although if I could, I would have), I cannot take the Ukrainian out of me.

So, the fact that all of you constantly pound on us Ukrainians is truly hurtful, and not fair.

I respect all nationalities, and all your jurisdictions and churches. In my metropolitan area I am an active member of our pan-Orthodox association, and I support ALL the Orthodox. I do what I can for each church.

Why can't you support me?

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

All of you know me well enough that you KNOW I would always put my Faith over and above my nationality.

However....

If my priest were to constantly berate me and try to remind me that there is no Ukraine, and try to convince me that I am Russian, etc....I would have to leave that church.NOT so much because my national pride was hurt....but, because I was being harassed and belittled and would not be able find the peace that my soul requires. How can one focus on prayer when you are demeaned all the time?

IF it is that important that we separate Church and State...then that priest has no business telling me anything about Ukraine or Russia, and he needs to simply preach the Word of God and nothing else.

I would not sit idly by. I would do my best to open his eyes to reality and fix his misconceptions about Ukraine.

I have been known to stand my ground, even with priests, when I have found my nationality belittled, or my Faith for that matter.Yes, my Faith. On numerous occasions I have found myself defending "Slavs"....including the Russian Orthodox Church....for our "fanatic" version of Orthodoxy. To be honest I would prefer Russian Orthodox to many other "american" versions who have lapsed in their traditions and adherence to the canons.

I am Orthodox first, Ukrainian second. But, I AM Ukrainian. The two are indivisible for me. I cannot be anything but Orthodox, nor can I (or will I) be anything but Ukrainian.

What hurts me most is that the members of this forum just love to defend Russia, when nobody is attacking her.

Why are you all so dead-set against Ukraine having an independent Church?

Why do you feel Russia needs to be defended so vehemently? Why are you all so defensive all the time?

Instead of telling us Russia is right, and Ukraine is wrong....why not accept that this group of people, who call themselves Ukrainian, would like to see an independent church on their land. What would it hurt? Is Russia in such dyer straights that losing Ukraine, would ruin Russia?

Why not support Ukraine, and thereby, strengthen Orthodoxy, by strengthening the Orthodox?

If you were black and found yourself in a white church, with a white priest telling you that white is best, and black...well...that's just a poor relation....would you stand for it? If you were told that black folks don't deserve a church all their own, because they really are just white, but, won't admit it. Would you stand for that?

Is race more important than Faith?

Would you defend your race? Or would you be meek and just be a good Orthodox, and accept that being black is inferior? Would you look at your black skin and convince yourself that in fact you are not black...but, are white?

I know...I can hear your thoughts....skin color is what you are born with ....it's different than some sense of nationality. Well, it's not. I was born Ukrainian. I didn't choose to be Ukrainian (although if I could, I would have), I cannot take the Ukrainian out of me.

So, the fact that all of you constantly pound on us Ukrainians is truly hurtful, and not fair.

I respect all nationalities, and all your jurisdictions and churches. In my metropolitan area I am an active member of our pan-Orthodox association, and I support ALL the Orthodox. I do what I can for each church.

Why can't you support me?

Not all who post here automatically defend Russia and attack Ukraine. To assert that we all do strikes me as a generalization borne out of an emotional knee-jerk reaction. Whereas I understand your angst in having to defend Ukraine and Ukrainian Orthodoxy against Russophiles and that you feel so alone in this fight, I don't exactly think you're being fair to us who don't join their Russophilia. As one who has no dog in this fight, I have no problem seeing Ukrainians and Russians as two distinct peoples, and I have no problem supporting the establishment of an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I just want to see this accomplished in a way that conforms to the canons.

Not all who post here automatically defend Russia and attack Ukraine. To assert that we all do strikes me as a generalization borne out of an emotional knee-jerk reaction. Whereas I understand your angst in having to defend Ukraine and Ukrainian Orthodoxy against Russophiles and that you feel so alone in this fight, I don't exactly think you're being fair to us who don't join their Russophilia.

I stand corrected. Not "everyone" on this forum is anti-Ukrainian, but, the majority who voice their opinion seem to be. That is not a knee-jerk reaction, but, a fact....otherwise, we wouldn't be repeating the same "arguments" over and over.

As one who has no dog in this fight, I have no problem seeing Ukrainians and Russians as two distinct peoples, and I have no problem supporting the establishment of an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I just want to see this accomplished in a way that conforms to the canons.

...as do I.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Thank You so much Gorazd! You have honored me beyond words and brought me to tears at work!

God bless You! BIG Hug!

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I am Orthodox first, Ukrainian second. But, I AM Ukrainian. The two are indivisible for me. I cannot be anything but Orthodox, nor can I (or will I) be anything but Ukrainian.

Why can't you support me?

Not all who post here automatically defend Russia and attack Ukraine. To assert that we all do strikes me as a generalization borne out of an emotional knee-jerk reaction. Whereas I understand your angst in having to defend Ukraine and Ukrainian Orthodoxy against Russophiles and that you feel so alone in this fight, I don't exactly think you're being fair to us who don't join their Russophilia. As one who has no dog in this fight, I have no problem seeing Ukrainians and Russians as two distinct peoples, and I have no problem supporting the establishment of an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I just want to see this accomplished in a way that conforms to the canons.

Amen!

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Not all who post here automatically defend Russia and attack Ukraine. To assert that we all do strikes me as a generalization borne out of an emotional knee-jerk reaction. Whereas I understand your angst in having to defend Ukraine and Ukrainian Orthodoxy against Russophiles and that you feel so alone in this fight, I don't exactly think you're being fair to us who don't join their Russophilia. As one who has no dog in this fight, I have no problem seeing Ukrainians and Russians as two distinct peoples, and I have no problem supporting the establishment of an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I just want to see this accomplished in a way that conforms to the canons.

Response:

This is exactly what most of us who are accused of being Russophiles feel including myself! I just get turned off when I hear reasons for an independent autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church based on ethnic pride, hatred, and politics.

Our priest is 38 and was born and raised in Ukraine. He is without doubt the smartest and best priest I've ever met. His spirituality and morals are without question. At his young age he has a Phd in physics, a masters in computer technology, and a masters of divinity. Quite an accomplishment for someone so young. He gave up a six figure salary to become a priest. The only worry I have is that he doesn't burn himself out because he works so hard.

When I bring up some of these discussions with him he tells me not to worry. The average Ukrainian knows that Ukraine was, is, and only can be Orthodox in faith no matter how things appear on the internet. He admits that he himself would get discouraged when he would talk to some of his friends who are now either Protestant, Greek Catholic, or in one of the non-canonical Orthodox jurisdictions. He said that they weren't the least bit interested in discussing theology. All they wanted to talk about were what food should be served at Holy Supper or what foods should be put in the Pascha basket! Of course he exaggerates to bring out his point.

The Ukrainian people have to learn to separate religion & politics, and realize that just because it looks the same and sounds the same doesn't automatically mean it is the same. When the Unia was formed this was the reason those who were forced into submission with Rome went so quietly in some instances.

Even though things are different today and people are no longer illerate as they were in 1596, there are many who still abide by this principle. The RCC & UGCC know this and it's the main reason these people are being told to go back to their roots and Orthodox traditions.

In my parish we are lucky to have, besides a Church, a separate Chapel that holds about 80 people. Our priest holds a Typica Service in Slavonic all but one Sunday (when another priest comes & serves a Slavonic Liturgy). He does this before the Liturgy in the main Church which is entirely in English! What an experience to see the Church start out with about six people to now have around 80 people with their own choir. The vast majority who attend are either Russian or Ukrainian immigrants. And are the most pious people I have ever met. Ther main reason to be there is to pray rather than discuss politics and who did what and when.

Don't know why I went on this rampage but I guess it's to say though I have been accused of being anti Ukrainian I am not. Just ask my priest.

I pray for an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church when the time is ripe which God will know. But not until then. Because there are some of us who worry that if it were to happen now, if this new autocephalous could stand on its own to feet against the onslaught it will certainly receive from Rome & the UGCC if its continues to see ethnic pride & politics more important than theology.

Orthodoc

P.S. It bothers our priest that there are 11 Prtestant based Russian churches in the area. He got tired of hearing from some immigrants that the Orthodox Church is not a Bible based church. So he attended a service in Riassa and Pectoral Cross in the local Russian Baptist Chruch! Caused quite a reactyion. After the service had ended he went up to the Baptist minister and said in front of all (In Russian) that he was an Orthhodx priest and would like to discuss Theology and the Bible with him. He said the minister was a nervous wreck and of course refused to debate him! NOW THAT"S A PRIEST!!!!

« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 05:01:25 PM by Orthodoc »

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Not all who post here automatically defend Russia and attack Ukraine. To assert that we all do strikes me as a generalization borne out of an emotional knee-jerk reaction. Whereas I understand your angst in having to defend Ukraine and Ukrainian Orthodoxy against Russophiles and that you feel so alone in this fight, I don't exactly think you're being fair to us who don't join their Russophilia. As one who has no dog in this fight, I have no problem seeing Ukrainians and Russians as two distinct peoples, and I have no problem supporting the establishment of an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I just want to see this accomplished in a way that conforms to the canons.

Response:

This is exactly what most of us who are accused of being Russophiles feel including myself! I just get turned off when I hear reasons for an independent autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church based on ethnic pride, hatred, and politics.

Our priest is 38 and was born and raised in Ukraine. He is without doubt the smartest and best priest I've ever met. His spirituality and morals are without question. At his young age he has a Phd in physics, a masters in computer technology, and a masters of divinity. Quite an accomplishment for someone so young. He gave up a six figure salary to become a priest. The only worry I have is that he doesn't burn himself out because he works so hard.

When I bring up some of these discussions with him he tells me not to worry. The average Ukrainian knows that Ukraine was, is, and only can be Orthodox in faith no matter how things appear on the internet. He admits that he himself would get discouraged when he would talk to some of his friends who are now either Protestant, Greek Catholic, or in one of the non-canonical Orthodox jurisdictions. He said that they weren't the least bit interested in discussing theology. All they wanted to talk about were what food should be served at Holy Supper or what foods should be put in the Pascha basket! Of course he exaggerates to bring out his point.

The Ukrainian people have to learn to separate religion & politics, and realize that just because it looks the same and sounds the same doesn't automatically mean it is the same. When the Unia was formed this was the reason those who were forced into submission with Rome went so quietly in some instances.

Even though things are different today and people are no longer illerate as they were in 1596, there are many who still abide by this principle. The RCC & UGCC know this and it's the main reason these people are being told to go back to their roots and Orthodox traditions.

In my parish we are lucky to have, besides a Church, a separate Chapel that holds about 80 people. Our priest holds a Typica Service in Slavonic all but one Sunday (when another priest comes & serves a Slavonic Liturgy). He does this before the Liturgy in the main Church which is entirely in English! What an experience to see the Church start out with about six people to now have around 80 people with their own choir. The vast majority who attend are either Russian or Ukrainian immigrants. And are the most pious people I have ever met. Ther main reason to be there is to pray rather than discuss politics and who did what and when.

Don't know why I went on this rampage but I guess it's to say though I have been accused of being anti Ukrainian I am not. Just ask my priest.

I pray for an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church when the time is ripe which God will know. But not until then. Because there are some of us who worry that if it were to happen now, if this new autocephalous could stand on its own to feet against the onslaught it will certainly receive from Rome & the UGCC if its continues to see ethnic pride & politics more important than theology.

Orthodoc

P.S. It bothers our priest that there are 11 Prtestant based Russian churches in the area. He got tired of hearing from some immigrants that the Orthodox Church is not a Bible based church. So he attended a service in Riassa and Pectoral Cross in the local Russian Baptist Chruch! Caused quite a reactyion. After the service had ended he went up to the Baptist minister and said in front of all (In Russian) that he was an Orthhodx priest and would like to discuss Theology and the Bible with him. He said the minister was a nervous wreck and of course refused to debate him! NOW THAT"S A PRIEST!!!!

Bravo Great post.....have to find a smiley that does this post justice...Three thumb's up ....

P.S. It bothers our priest that there are 11 Prtestant based Russian churches in the area. He got tired of hearing from some immigrants that the Orthodox Church is not a Bible based church. So he attended a service in Riassa and Pectoral Cross in the local Russian Baptist Chruch! Caused quite a reactyion. After the service had ended he went up to the Baptist minister and said in front of all (In Russian) that he was an Orthhodx priest and would like to discuss Theology and the Bible with him. He said the minister was a nervous wreck and of course refused to debate him! NOW THAT"S A PRIEST!!!!

But it is certainly not about comprehension. It's just that our dear brother Isa Al-Misry, being frustrated because of what he, an oddball, a half-Norvegian and half-Arab, and a former Evangelical Protestant, percieves as some kind of assault on his "tue Orthodoxy" from what he thinks are "Greek Philetists" (and other Philetists), pulls his half-witted "knowledge" of "history" (and just what THAT is...?), to "prove" that all "nationalism" is BAAAAAAD.

O.K. Thanks Heorhij. Funnily that would explain the multitudinous and disjointed attacks on Ukrainians (i.e. well Russians want this part of Ukraine, Romanians this part, Khrushchev - the only thing in common to any of this being the poster's negativity to things Ukrainian). I almost thought he actually had something personal to explain his behavior or his anti-Ukrainian comments.

Btw, Ukraine has Northern Bucovina, and the Romanians want it back, along with other territory that Khrushchev gave Ukraine.

I am not sure whether you are just misinformed, or whether you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts, but Romania has clearly stated that it has no territorial claims to Ukraine. (What many Romanian politicians do want, is to annex Moldova). Romanians in Ukraine have guaranteed minority rights, and both countries are fine with the current situation. (And so are Ukrainian Romanians themselves, because they make quite some money with smuggling Vodka and other things).

Ialmisry is just misinformed, probably: Romany and Ukraine have signed a "Basic Treaty" (Tratatul de baza romano-ucrainian) more than a decade ago (IIRC) by which all territorial claims were officially put to rest, except maybe, for the Snakes' Island.

He is "misinformed" in many other claims he is making, beginning from showing pictures from cartoonish Bolshevik propaganda and calling them "history."

ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'

Can you give proof for this statement, please? Really, I do not understand how people completely underlated to the question have so much contempt for Ukraine...

Yes. Me too. Statements by some here like Romanians want Bukovyna "back" (sic) are not only factually incorrect but seem only to be aimed at denigrating Ukrainians and/or the Ukrainian state. They are also absolutely unrelated to the OP as well. Ukrainians, like many European nations in Eastern Europe, had to undergo "nation-building" so to speak without benefit of a state for some time. This is true for many nations in Eastern Europe. It doesn't matter to some however. I am kinda still new here but am slightly surprised at the animosity of some posters to things Ukrainian, and find it hard to reconcile with Christian virtue or love.

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.

I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."

Well there was plenty of propoganda about Romania Mare "Greater Romania" when I was there in '93, when anything to do with borders or Ukrainians/Russians/Communists (many Romanians do not distinguish) brought up Northern Bucovina. The Party by that name (Romania Mare) joined the government in that year, but left in '95, two years before the Romania-Ukraine treaty mentioned above was finalized. Yet in 2000 Corneliu Vadim Tudor, its candidate for President, came in second with a third of the vote in the second round and a fifth of the seats of parliament, where it was the second largest party (he has fallen since then, a decline that settled in in part with leaving the Identity, Tradition, Sovereignty (ITS) group (leading to its demise) in the European Parliament, over remarks Il Duci's granddaugher Alessandra Mussolini made calling all Romanians (who see themselves as siblings of the Italians) criminals.

I have a map like this I got in '93:except it had cultural attractions, landmarks, etc. marked instead of administrative divisions, in a cartoonish way: the Serpents Island, for instance, is exagerated. (Yes, that dispute went to the International Court of Justice, for the oil and gas underneath it (Russia is not the only oil and gas empire ) in 2009. There is a hanging threat by Romania to sue Ukraine for sanctions over the Bystroye Channel near the Danube Delta. Both of Ukraine's claims are based on the unratified (by either side) treaty forced on Romania-then occupied by Soviet troops-in 1948). On the right is Historic Moldavia (i.e. the one the irrendentists want) in yellow, with the border written by Khrushchev in black.

The rest on the other thread.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

where Henrik Bimbaum makes the point that although Kiev was the Mother of Alll Russian Cities, Novgorod was the father.

The immediate reason I lookd it up was the picture that the OP portrays of the Russians (in any sense, ancient or modern) as being uneducated Finns. The Cathedral in Novgorod (what else? St. Sophia), built in stone in 1052 (replacing the wooden structure), which has not only Cyrillic graffitti but also Glagolitic, i.e. the original script devised by the Apostles to the Slavs, including one with the date 6561 (=1053). This in a addition to all the birth bark letters in Cyrillic (and some of which indeed are in in Finnic, but most Slavonic). He goes into a number of things which undermine the OP, and some other suppositions. For instance, Ukrainian ultranationalists such as the KP refer to the language of Kievan Rus' as Ukrainian. Not even intending to address this, Bimbaum exposes the fallacy of this: the language used was Old Church Slavonic, a South Slavic language, not an Eastern one. Hence neither Russian, Ukrainian nor Belorussian. As for the recension later, that is a different matter, and a moot one: Russia adopted the recension codified by St. Peter Movila Metropolitan of Kiev, one of the founders of a seperate Ukrainian identity (although he was Moldovan).

Another thing touched on has relevance to something the OP, KP, and others LOVE to state as dogma: Kostomarov's "Two Russias" one autocratic (Russia) another democratic (Ukraine). Novgorold forbade its prince from living in the city, but had him live outiside on in Rurik's fort (the people of Novgorod elected and invited the Rurikids to rule), to function as the envoy to the Grand Prince/Duke at Kiev.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

There is no reasonable doubt about Novgorod being very democratic and cultured for its time.

But guess what? They were destroyed and massacred by Moscow.

So they weren't Russian? Not Finns? Who was paid off for them?...?....?

« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 12:55:57 AM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Learning the purpose of the Muscovite delegation, the Patriarch of Jerusalem Dositheus II sends them an angry letter, in which he points out the illegality of their request and accuses them of trying to acquire a Metropolitanate by means of bribes of money and gifts.

I just came across something about our friend Pat. Dositheus.

Georges Florovsky, 'Ways of Russian Theology"

Quote

41. Patriarch Dositheus expressed concern over Latin influences in Russia on a number of occasions. Alttiough he himself sent the Likhud brothers to Moscow to open the academy there, he denounced them when they introduced Latin into the curriculum. Later he protested Iavorskii's consecration to the see of Riazan and warned Peter not to bring Ukrainians to Russian sees. On this redoubtable hierarch himself see chapter II, note 200

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200. Dositheus was patriarch of Jerusalem from 1669 to 1707, and during his long tenure he proved himself to be the most influential and respected figure in the entire Orthodox world. As a scholar he was known for his History of the Patriarchs of Jerusalem (Bucharest, 1715), which was actually a history of the entire Orthodox Church, as well as numerous editions of the Church Fathers, with which he was thoroughly familiar. As a polemist his chief work was the Enchiridion against the Errors of Calvinism (Bucharest, 1690). Although he also guarded carefully against Catholic influences in the Church, his opposition to the Protestants led him into the support of Mogila's Confession, for which he wrote a foreword in the Greek edition of 1699. Dositheus produced his own Confession (actually authored by four contemporary prelates, with the final editing done by Dositheus) which was approved by a synod in Jerusalem in 1672 and published a few years later at the famous press which he himself financed at Iasi: This Confession was, on the whole, free of the obvious Latin influences in Mogila's statement, and only resorted to Catholic terminology when defending the Orthodox doctrine of the Eucharist against the Protestants. See S. Runciman, The Great Church in Captivity, pp. 347-353.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I am still waiting for your condemnation of Russian nationalism in the MP.

Yes, so am I. For that matter I am still waiting to hear him condemn Russia's President Putin for putting a positive spin on the Soviet Secret Police killers of the 1930s or to condemn what the Economist magazine's Edward Lukas bemoaned about the Russian neo-fascism of groups like Nashi.

What is the matter Isa. Your silence only leads me to believe you approve of Russian extremist nationalism since you are too scared to answer. Here's a good litmus test: do you condemn the vice-head of Russia's Duma, Vladimir Zhirinovsky? Do a google search on him if you don't know him and tell me whether you think him a good Russian. Not that difficult. Are you afraid to condemn Russian imperialism or chauvinism? Be honest.

I just came across this again. At the time I was too busy condemning what needed to be condemned, and defending what needed to be defended. I find that better than jumping through some hoop. I'm hardly silent.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Do you know the duck test? "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

So we could say that someone who speaks Ukrainian, practises Ukrainian culture, loves Ukraine and is willing to defend Ukraine should be considered Ukrainian.

I think that is a very reasonable definition. In my opinion (worthless as that may be) the real problem stems from somebody drawing an imaginary line around a piece a ground and calling it Ukraine when a very large portion of people living within that boundary are not Ukrainian. I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. A nation is not made up of its dirt, but of its people. Unfortunately, the failure to recognize this has cost countless gallons of blood to be spilt over the years. Thanks be to God that the Urainians and Russians in "Ukraine" are fighting a war of words and not yet a war of blood (at least not on a large scale). I believe that is worthy of respect, and continued prayer.

I couldn't note without regret Punch's last observation here.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Do you know the duck test? "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

So we could say that someone who speaks Ukrainian, practises Ukrainian culture, loves Ukraine and is willing to defend Ukraine should be considered Ukrainian.

I think that is a very reasonable definition. In my opinion (worthless as that may be) the real problem stems from somebody drawing an imaginary line around a piece a ground and calling it Ukraine when a very large portion of people living within that boundary are not Ukrainian. I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. A nation is not made up of its dirt, but of its people. Unfortunately, the failure to recognize this has cost countless gallons of blood to be spilt over the years. Thanks be to God that the Urainians and Russians in "Ukraine" are fighting a war of words and not yet a war of blood (at least not on a large scale). I believe that is worthy of respect, and continued prayer.

I couldn't note without regret Punch's last observation here.

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.