Looking to target only the best quality educational oraganizations, and aiming to avoid the less-than-erudite bunch. Looking to teach real serious students who genuinely want to learn. Not youths being forced to attend by over-ambitious/megalomaniacal parents, in which case they will merely go thru the motions at best, and twist and fret and whine at worst. Or worse yet, resort to other unpalatable behavior in stressed-out protestation to rigorous learning procedures.

is it safe 2 say one needs a minimum of a BA in ENglish plus a CELTA or TESOL PLUS + 5 years exp. AFTER the certification in order to get a job at one of those unis? Would I have a remote shot with just a BA + unrelated Masters+ 2 yrs in Korea + a brand new cert?

Note that most of these (except Bilkent) are public institutions where you may have great students, but salaries leave a great deal to be desired. They also usually have very cumbersome hiring restrictions.

I teach Public Speaking and Lit classes in an ELT dept in a private university and overall I have been pleasantly suprised by my students. Because they will become English teachers one day, most (though not all) of them are pretty motivated. I've done a bit of work in prep classes and hope i never have to go back.

Ah.........Prep school, where I have been teaching at two different private universities over the past 4 years. Yes, they can be daunting and yes, they can make you want to run out and burst into tears (at least the first year). That being said, you have to learn to get past their constant talking, texting, not bringing their pencils, books and just do the best you can. I would say that I started out by being a really strict instructor. What I learned over my time here is to be more practical (thus saving my sanity). I had to learn to tolerate the little annoyances while not giving up on quality of educational standards .

Turkish students are social, controlled by their parents and used to a highly authoritarian style of management. They have just finished a hellish few years of cramming for the OSS and now they want a break. They have been told by their cramming school instructors... "just get into university and then the rest is a vacation". So imagine the wake up call when they run across the high expectations and cultural norms of a western instructor.

No, I'm not saying let them do what ever they want and just tolerate it. What I am saying is pick your battles. Example:I used to say NO cell phones, put away your cell phones, get off your cell phones... blah, blah, blah. Well, this took most of my time... enforcing every possible rule. Finally, I just said look... YOU are UNIVERSITY students! These are the expectations of university students... 'what do you think about this?' I allow them to use their cell phones to text for urgent business as long as they are not disturbing the lesson. If I call on them or if there is an assignment going on in class they have a firm deadline. If it's not done due to their working on something else, texting etc. It's not my problem it's their problem. I don't take late work, I expect them to be on time, I don't allow them to get full points for not having their materials. That is all up to them. I do have a higher tolerance for other things. I know this isn't what others might do , but it is what works for me.

That being said Turkish students like to be nurtured and told when they do something well (as we all do). They expect their instructors to be the Mom, Dad, Abla, Abi, Uncle and Aunt.... away from home. I wear many hats when I am teaching. Sometimes it's a kick in the butt from their overly controlling father or mother, other times it's a shoulder to cry on because they miss home. It's a very hard balancing act. Students at the University level want to be treated like young adults but they are still just finding themselves as it is their first taste of freedom.

Private Universities come with more issues with behavior . With more pay comes more problems. Honestly in the US and the UK it isn't much better, just different types of problems (students on drugs,drunk, physical and verbal abuse). I'll take Turkey over that any day.

Perhaps I have spent too much time in prep classes, that last post struck more than a few chords. The kids are young adults but behave a lot younger and seem to have a low boredom thresold and high expectations with minimum effort. Worst of all they then evaluate our teaching based on what they feel they may have learned or not. Student autonomy is the buzz word these days which means they can work if they want to, no prizes for guessing what they prefer. Pity we then have to carry the can for that!

O,
I hear you ! I personally have felt the sting of a student evaluation or two, regardless of the numerous that were great! I think this is another issue that administrative units have to address. How much or how little do they count? Yes, you are also right that they are guilty of "group think " , ARE VERY IMMATURE FOR THEIR AGE, and are often bored all too easily. That being said, that is the student profile and we have to do the best that we can with what we have.
I love Turkey, with all it's good and bad. I bitch about it more than I should but wouldn't want to leave it (at least at this time) because there are also many wonderful things about teaching. These same kids have been extremely supportive and warm to me through many hard times in my life. When I had surgery I had more students emailing and calling than I did colleagues. When I was a basket case during my first year (as many of us are) there were always the few who came to my office and made me smile. I love seeing them later when they have gone into their departments and how they thank me for helping them as much as I could. Seeing them randomly outside of the classroom lit up like a xmas tree and bragging to all their friends that "this is my HOCAM".

I know they aren't angels, sometimes I just want to rip their sweet little heads off. ha ha Again, this is my job as the adult to see past their faults and do the best that I can...............with what I have. NO, I'm not trying to bust out the Pollyanna however I take the good and the bad and roll with it.

And YES CELL PHONES are a pain in the ass!

Last edited by Caterinamh on Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total

Yeah, without doubt the rewards have been the things that keep me going and they do introduce to their friends and parents that way, it is uplifting even if they try your patience sometimes.

Like you I have a great deal of affection for the country and its people, and we are always constantly reminded what a difficult job we do and how important it is by our various admin members. So why do they go out of their way to make it more difficult?

O,
I just wrote a long reply and it was deleted. So, I'll paraphrase with a quote....

William Frederick Book: Inspirational Quotes: Overcoming Adversity
Learn to adjust yourself to the conditions you have to endure, but make a point of trying to alter or correct conditions so that they are most favorable to you.

There are good and bad directors, admins , etc. We just have to make the best of it or move on to someplace where we are valued in the way we see fit. Of course trying to improve things is an honorable task, however in Turkey "the one who complains is the one they blame."

eclectic, i hate to burst your bubble, if it's not already burst by reading the last few posts, but chances are, with your qualifications, you're not going to be teaching "serious students" and making a living.

the types of positions you might be qualified for that pay at least $2000 USD/month are...
- dersanes (most posts say to avoid English Time and Wall Street Institute, but some of the others might not be so bad...)
- low/middle-end university English prep programs (The top tier programs (i.e. "top paying" programs) like Ozyegin and this new university Sehir generally require a master's in TEFL and at least a few years university prep experience. You might try Bilgi, Beykent, Dogus, etc.)
- low/middle-end private primary/secondary schools (The top tier private schools, like Robert College, require a teaching certification from the U.S. and at least 5 years experience. Some of the Leed's positions, Istanbul International School, Istek, and a few others "bend the rules" on these legal requirements, which might leave you working illegally, but they'll still pay you something decent and arrange for you to get a residence permit...)

and you're going to NEED at least $2000 USD to support yourself and your wife (assuming you have no debt) plan on going on only one vacation/year, want to live in a reasonably centrally located apartment with no serious maintenance problems, want to eat out a few times/month and go to the cinema perhaps once/month, etc. i understand your wife can work, but as an east indian with only a high school degree, she will probably not make much and will be easy fodder to be exploited by the worst of the dersanes...

4 out of the 5 "best universities" on the list above, which looks pretty accurate to me, are public universities. Public Universities pay very badly, and it'll take a least a year for them to process your paperwork, which means a year without getting paid. Plus, given that you have no serious university experience, it might be a hard sell anyway.

which means, as other posters have suggested, CLASSROOM MANAGEMENT SKILLS are EVERYTHING. having worked in the far east myself, the kind of classroom management strategies you use in this part of the world are totally different than that part of the world... strategies used here are similiar to what you might use in a poor urban high school in the States, perhaps? you might consider reading up on this before you get here, so the "students" don't eat you alive...

Good Luck, eclectic... i'm not trying to be a negative nelly... i'm just giving you a realistic picture of the situation you're facing

and Listener, do you have a phd? Because I applied for similiar types of
positions at private universities, and was told that a phd is generally required...

they can make you want to run out and burst into tears (at least the first year). That being said, you have to learn to get past their constant talking, texting, not bringing their pencils, books and just do the best you can. I would say that I started out by being a really strict instructor. What I learned over my time here is to be more practical (thus saving my sanity). I had to learn to tolerate the little annoyances while not giving up on quality of educational standards .

Without a doubt this is neither a Turkish nor Korean phenomenon, but an international one. One day soon the whole world will be as free and autonomous as New York City or Amsterdam. The above quote describes EXACTLY my experience here in K for the last 2 years. Exactly. And K and Turkey are quite some dozen kilometers apart, at that. BUt the children are the same. One world. One race. One species. Ecce homo. Its a bit of a shock when you really see it.

@atoklas: Excellent post, I think all people planning to come here should have it as required reading.

As for me, no i do not have a PhD. In fact, to teach in a faculty part time (I have a kid at home), all you need is an undergrad degree. HOWEVER, no one will want to get a work permit for a part timer. I became a Turkish citizen a few years back which makes things easier, unless I want to be "kadrolu" in which case I would have to take the ALES exam, so I guess it's a tradeoff....

@ Eclectic: I taught 1st and 2nd year Spanish at private and public universities in the US and NEVER had students like the ones I have here.

@atoklas------hey man that was the best most komprehensiv rundown of my most realistic possibilities I ever read!

Burst a bubble? Well, maybe a bit, yes. Loox like Turkey offers only mediocre at best stuff unless you have a real top notch high end killer qualification plus % yrs exp in a SIMILAR environment ie uni.
thx 4 that great reply.

negativ nelly? noway, I like the truth any day over the face-saving two faced imbecility of confucianism. no such thing as + or - anywayz, right?

hmmm Listener, that's interesting... i didn't know the rules were different for part-time positions... but if you can only work part-time and don't have small children, becoming a turkish citizen sounds like a raw deal...

the private unis I interviewed with for those types of positions told me that even though they often encountered candidates with masters' degrees from very reputable unis and lots of experience, YOK requires them to hire phd grads for full time positions... which was a bit problematic because for the salaries they pay, they often times can't get native English speakers with phds in tefl, english lit, etc. because those types of candidates would rather go work in the gulf, east asia, etc. where they can make a lot more...

which begs the question--
what does a full time phd-graduated foreign lecturer in a faculty at a private uni make? i'm guessing around 5-6,000 lira net, although i never got that far in the interview process can anyone confirm or deny?