The realms of existence are customarily divided into three distinct "worlds" (loka), listed here in descending order of refinement:

The Immaterial World (arupa-loka). Consists of four realms that are accessible to those who pass away while meditating in the formless jhanas.

The Fine-Material World (rupa-loka). Consists of sixteen realms whose inhabitants (the devas) experience extremely refined degrees of mental pleasure. These realms are accessible to those who have attained at least some level of jhana and who have thereby managed to (temporarily) suppress hatred and ill-will. They are said to possess extremely refined bodies of pure light. The highest of these realms, the Pure Abodes, are accessible only to those who have attained to "non-returning," the third stage of Awakening. The Fine-Material World and the Immaterial World together constitute the "heavens" (sagga).

The Sensuous World (kama-loka). Consists of eleven realms in which experience — both pleasurable and not — is dominated by the five senses. Seven of these realms are favorable destinations, and include our own human realm as well as several realms occupied by devas. The lowest realms are the four "bad" destinations, which include the animal and hell realms.

"Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness.

"He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed.

"Ananda, whatever contemplatives and brahmans who in the past entered & remained in an emptiness that was pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all entered & remained in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed. Whatever contemplatives and brahmans who in the future will enter & remain in an emptiness that will be pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all will enter & remain in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed. Whatever contemplatives and brahmans who at present enter & remain in an emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all enter & remain in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.

"Therefore, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'We will enter & remain in the emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.'"

The second subdivision explains in detail the naturewithout action; it has three parts. First of all there arethe four achievements, then there are the three capacitiesof understanding, and finally there is the decisionwithout action, which has five points.

The Four Achievements. These are:1. To be able to do the opposite of what one thinksis the right action.2. When one has achieved this capacity of actingwithout any concept of good or bad, it does notmatter if one is criticised or not; everything isequal.3. The person who has achieved this capacity isnever involved in actions or thoughts.4. If one who has achieved this capacity is criticised,that person does not modify his or herview. One is not deluded by others.

(24 If you do not fully understand the natural state, then allpractices, such as reciting mantras, etc., are seen as effort.But when you fully understand that state then none ofthese actions are important any longer. Thus you are ableto do things in the opposite way. A similar point was madeby Longchenpa {klong chen rab 'byams pa): "When youdon't understand the natural state you must try to accumulatemerits and practise bodhicitta and confession, etc."

But the opposition spoken of here is not opposition inthe sense of adopting the views of the heretic schools or eventhat of an opponent. It means that once one is continuouslyin the natural state one is not deluded—so whether onerecites, or practises visualisation or whatever it does notmatter. It is like being in space. Whether you paint black orwhite on space it leaves no trace.

When you first begin to hear these teachings this can bemisleading, as it is valid only for the person who canremain undisturbed and not distracted in the natural state.Such freedom is the result.)

These are the four achievements of the person who hasachieved the natural state.

The Three Capacities of Understanding. These are:

1. Of course the practitioners who have achievedthis capacity will have clairvoyance. But they donot care for these signs even if the Dharmakayaappears very brightly in front of them. Theyhave fully understood that everything is part oftheir nature, so they are neither happy nor sadto see this. That is the first sign that no one canremove the practitioner from his or her nature.2. Of course even if sickness and miseries come, thepractitioners do not care. If the King of Hellcomes and puts molten metal in their mouths, ifthe demons come to take them away, they knowthat these appearances are not separate fromtheir own nature. So no one can make the practitionerafraid. That is the sign that he or she willnot fall down.

3. Of course practitioners can spontaneously givemany teachings without study, as the teachingswill be known spontaneously by the power oftheir understanding. Thus they will have agood reputation and so achieve power andknowledge to conquer their critics. They do notcare—even if they see the Sambhogakaya or seeTonpa Shenrab teaching under his umbrella—they never change from their nature. Theyknow that everything is not different from theirnature. So they do not follow good or bad. Thatis the sign of the capacity of the practice—thepractitioners will never be stopped, nor will theygo back from their nature.Practitioners have no hope to achieve nirvana nor arethey frightened to fall down to samsara. They do notwish to do good things. Those practitioners who havethis capacity do not doubt any longer. But if a practitioneris still doubtful as to whether he or she is acting inthe right way or not, or whether he or she has got theright sign or not, then that person has not yet achievedthis capacity. He or she will continue to circulate insamsara.

26 Lopon comments that when other Buddhist schools hearthese teachings they have been very upset in the past andhave said that Dzogchen is not Buddhism at all. But Dzogchenis not like the view of Indian or Western materialistphilosophy in which the actions in the life have no ultimateconsequence because body and mind have the samenature—the view that they are born together so it doesn'tmatter whether you perform good or bad actions becausefinally they both go to ashes and no trace is left. Thenatural state is not material at all—after all, as is continuouslystated in the text, where can you find it?

Yuanshi Tianzun (Chinese: 元始天尊; pinyin: Yúanshǐ Tīanzūn), the Celestial Venerable of the Primordial Beginning or the Primeval Lord of Heaven, is one of the highest deities of religious Taoism. He is one of the Three Pure Ones (Chinese: 三清; pinyin: Sānqīng), and is also known as the Jade Pure One (Chinese: 玉清; pinyin: Yùqīng). He resides in the Heaven of Jade Purity. It is believed that he came into being at the beginning of the universe as a result of the merging of pure breaths. He then created Heaven and Earth.

Yuanshi Tianzun is said to be without beginning and the most supreme of all beings. He is in fact, a representation of the principle of all being. From him all things arose. He is eternal, limitless, and without form.

Johnny Dangerous wrote:In a Buddhist context, love, compassion, equanimity, all the paramitas, all these kinds of things are not necessarily "emotions" like they are in western psych or religion etc. I think the point of something like Tonglen or Metta or whatever is not just to make you feel good or make you nicer to others, it is to turn around your view at a deep level.

These are about one's relation to, and view of the "outside" world..the more you practice them, the more you open and the line between "inside" and "outside" fades, so not only are they important, but from a Mahayana POV they are instrumental in the realization of emptiness.

Also, trying to focus on "nothingness" to blot other stuff out is warned against really specifically in a number of texts, some of them say the conscious attempts at "nothingness" or repression/stopping of thought can lead to an animal rebirth!

If you are still fearful of being reborn in the lower realms, then you will never get out of samsara because you have not removed the karma of fear from your energetic blueprint.

The true enlightened person is not fearful of being reborn as an animal, hungry ghost or in hell because all animals, hungry ghosts and even hell itself are illusionary phenomenon conjured by the attaching mind.

In other words, everything which you see and experience around you are imprints of your karma, a manipulation of your reality by higher dimensional forces.

A quote from the Trodrel Namkhadang NyempaiGyu: "If anyone enters the 'Nature Without Action',whether that being is a god or a human orin any one of the six realms, the nature of mindwill always be purified spontaneously into naturaltruth. And whoever wants to get into this natureshould not make any kind of action—onlyremain in the final truth."

All the existences that belong to samsara and nirvanaare reflections that come from the naturalstate. All of them will be liberated into the naturalstate. Just at the moment when they are reflectedthey are ready to be liberated—there isno need to try to liberate them. Therefore decideto enter the 'Self-Liberation'.

A quote from the tenth chapter of the text above:"This is the automatic cutting off of the mistakesor obscurations. From the beginning it isbeyond the views of nihilism and eternalism.Here nothing is said about them for all are naturallyliberated into the 'Pure, Great, NaturallyLiberated'."

The problem is that your first post here in this thread is a different view from what you are now saying. You have mixed things up. The first post you made was talking about consciousness. Now you are quoting Dzogchen masters. I can see some of the points you are making but you are mixing things up. Best thing would be a few paragraphs or a poem detailing what exactly your view is, rather than scattering quotes here and there.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108 wrote:The problem is that your first post here in this thread is a different view from what you are now saying. You have mixed things up. The first post you made was talking about consciousness. Now you are quoting Dzogchen masters. I can see some of the points you are making but you are mixing things up. Best thing would be a few paragraphs or a poem detailing what exactly your view is, rather than scattering quotes here and there.

The Tao that can be said is not the Tao.

All of you do not exist and are just figments of my own imagination, my own ego.

The whole world does not exist for it is just my own imagination, my own ego making it up.

Even the double agents in here trying to reinforce the illusions that this world exist, do not exist, for how can one illusion ever try to pretend another illusion is real?

Andrew108 wrote:The problem is that your first post here in this thread is a different view from what you are now saying. You have mixed things up. The first post you made was talking about consciousness. Now you are quoting Dzogchen masters. I can see some of the points you are making but you are mixing things up. Best thing would be a few paragraphs or a poem detailing what exactly your view is, rather than scattering quotes here and there.

The Tao that can be said is not the Tao.

All of you do not exist and are just figments of my own imagination, my own ego.

The whole world does not exist for it is just my own imagination, my own ego making it up.

Even the double agents in here trying to reinforce the illusions that this world exist, do not exist, for how can one illusion ever try to pretend another illusion is real?

uh, ok, who owns this ego again? i missed that part i think, must have. (someone pass me the diet coke!)

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?

purestsoul wrote:To get out of the cycle of samsara of rebirth and death, one has to eliminate all traces of emotions from one being, no love no hate no thoughts absolutely nothingness.

For that is how one can achieve the infinity of consciousness.

I think this is the main problem some people are having here. The idea that we need to get rid of our emotions and then we will achieve something. Your arguments are setting up the other extreme of nihilism or indifference over the eternalist effort of creating and then meditating on love (of establishing objects). So it is a bit out of balance.I understand where you are coming from, but your cynicism needs to go all the way. To cut through everything. Cut through ideas of enlightenment, ideas of the infinity of consciousness, ideas of achievement, ideas of success, ideas as to what the natural state is. Ideas that love needs to be abandoned or not. And so on. We don't really need a tactical deployment of emptiness to deal with the natural state. The natural state belongs to nature. And so do we. We don't tell the natural state what it should be (''You should be an infinity of consciousness! You should be empty!''). We don't craft the natural state with our ideas. We just have to relax into it. Of course you are right to talk about emptiness and it is a credit to you that you are not afraid of it. But an understanding of emptiness should lead to an understanding of wholeness or 'totalness' and not a one-sided nothingness. Renunciation; practices like guru yoga or deity meditation, are all little love stories. Little love events that show the natural state is not one-sided emptiness. Our teachers pass these things on to us. We share in that. Best wishes. Andrew

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.