It may be too soon, and clearly the team doesn't have the talent to compete, but every gut instinct I have in me says that SHUR MUR is in way, way, way over his head. I'm talking Luke Fickell levels of being in over his head. And sadly, these gut feelings are usually right.

It's just amazing how bad we still blow, especially given the progress made during the Mangini Era. Not necessarily progress in the talent acquisition side of things, but just in terms of putting a professional team out there that wouldn't beat themselves. I still cannot believe Brad Seely wasn't retained and given a little more cash and a pseudo-title. Just so embarrassing to get depantsed so bad on a fake FG ... especially on 4th and short with a 50+ yard attempt coming.

And this bull shit of throwing 70 passes a game to gain 200 yards is infuriating.

Our coach is not qualified to be a head coach. And our quarterback is a Mickey Mouse dink and dunker that would need Dilfer-esque levels of support to win a sausage. And we're gonna miss out on Andrew Luck.

It is really, really, really hard to be a Browns fan.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

I've thought the same thing Rich. Hard to really say for sure but lots of signs. We have some talented players on this team, albeit not a lot, and some of which might just be average to slightly better than at the EOD. Yet we still lack the ability to be consistently competitive each week, let alone control a game win with little question.

We've installed this pass oriented offense, yet we do not feature 2 of the 3 best pass catchers we have in that regard, Hillis & Moore. They both seem to disappear from the field despite a couple in week references to getting them more involved. Yet we keep throwing the ball to a guy who obviously has trouble catching the ball, Hardesty.

As always play calling can be second guessed, but still there's a lot of plays to second guess with this guy, and a lot of questioning on personnel usage that leaves you thinking WTF. Usually your better players are on the field the most, and you'd think used in the best way possible.

I just wonder if we are really any further along than we were 2-3 years ago with a different regime and differing style of coaching, that did show as many signs of progress as this franchise has seen since the return. Are there some of the same issues in the overall focus in our FO as there have been in the past? Are we being subtle in manipulating where we end at the end of the season, for the justification of the next drafts needs?

I find it hard to believe we lack so much talent, still, in so many areas on offense that everybody looks like crap on a regular basis. The procedure penalties and the embarrassing school yard plays ran to perfection against us this year are some pretty damning pieces of evidence Shurmur just isn't the guy.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

The Evan Moore shit - I forgot to even mention that. I could give two shits if the guy can block. Split him out and call him a WR if it bothers Shurmur that much. It's inexplicable how little he plays and how little he sees passes given the rest of this team's recievers.

And the Hillis thing, regardless of whether or not he's hurt ... could not have been handled worse.

No effing way Walrus whacks this idiot after one year though. Way too proud.

Browns need to continue to cut bait on the coach and QB till they get it right. Need studs in both spots to win it all. No sense wasting time when you know you got chumps that can't get you over the top. Which ironically, was pretty much Walrus's thought process on Mangenius. But Mangenius wasn't his pick.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

Is it bad that I've liked the job vanilla dick jauron has done as defensive coordinator?

not saying I like him as a Head Coach, quite the opposite, keep him away at all costs, but if there's any moves made, I'd like to possibly see him remain on at that spot.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

I am not defending Mangini here, but at least he did something to utilize what little talent he had, as Rich and others have stated.

Could Delhomme, Wallace or McCoy throw an accurate pass? No, but at least he used Hillis, Cribbs, Moore, etc. so they at least had a shot in a lot of these games. In 4 of the 5 games (minus the last Miami drive) was there ever any feeling that the Browns were "in" the game.

Run Hillis 25 times cause that all we got. Yup. Run Cribbs in the wildcat. Yup. Put Moore in the slot. Yup.

Throw in the poor discipline and special teams play and it is a joke. Completely falls on the HC. So does this Hillis debacle. It would have taken one sentence of, "Hillis was sick, unable to play, end of story," to flush the toilet on this shit show but this thing has lingered for 3 weeks. Doesn't help when the back-up RB is runing for 3 YPC and dropping passes at a Robert Royal-esque rate.

Took 4 games to get Robiskie off the field. I agree they need Alex Smith at times but that in no way prohibits the use of Moore in the slot. Al the talk of using Hillis and Hardesty together has not born any fruit. It's bad we have only 8 plays of 20+ total on the season, but how many of those were on balls that were actually THROWN 20 yards down field?

This is NOT the WCO. I'd be happy if they ran the actual WCO. This is crap.

Team does take it's cues and identity from the HC and Strep-Gate, Fake FG TDs and pussyfooting on offense is not going to work in 2011.

McCoy also looks to be what he is, a roll of the dice 3rd round pick. No signs of improvement and deteriorating play overall. After 13 NFL games, albeit 5 in the current "system" (I just threw up in my mouth typing that), I would like to see some sort of barometer that even though he is off he's got the instincts or guile or something that will lead me to believe he will be a good NFL QB. Not so much. Maybe he'll "get it" in the last 11 games this year, but right now I do not see that happening.

I know in the other thread there is no way that whomever lands the #1 pick will trade it, but you HAVE to offer both #1 in 2012 and #1 in 2013 (at a minimum) for the #1 overall pick. Even if you know they won't trade it you HAVE to offer it.

This is a QB driven league with ever significant rule change giving an advantage to the offense. No QB equals no winning. Use the other rounds of the draft to fill the other talent holes. QB first.

Also, this talk of winning sausages is disturbing. Very, very disturbing.

I've watched him all of twice now, but RG3 is going to end up a top ten QB and is in the Cam mold in terms of pure physical freakiness. Different skills than Cam, but just that toolsy.

I thought he was a Jr? If so, will he derclare?

FTR, I started pimping him first (about 3 weeks ago) so fuck off

Thought he was actually a redshirt sophomore. jta1975 brought him up a month or so ago as the second choice behind Luck when we were talking. I'd never heard of the dude but I'm not a draft guy at all.

I am not defending Mangini here, but at least he did something to utilize what little talent he had, as Rich and others have stated.

Could Delhomme, Wallace or McCoy throw an accurate pass? No, but at least he used Hillis, Cribbs, Moore, etc. so they at least had a shot in a lot of these games. In 4 of the 5 games (minus the last Miami drive) was there ever any feeling that the Browns were "in" the game.

Run Hillis 25 times cause that all we got. Yup. Run Cribbs in the wildcat. Yup. Put Moore in the slot. Yup.

Throw in the poor discipline and special teams play and it is a joke. Completely falls on the HC. So does this Hillis debacle. It would have taken one sentence of, "Hillis was sick, unable to play, end of story," to flush the toilet on this shit show but this thing has lingered for 3 weeks. Doesn't help when the back-up RB is runing for 3 YPC and dropping passes at a Robert Royal-esque rate.

Took 4 games to get Robiskie off the field. I agree they need Alex Smith at times but that in no way prohibits the use of Moore in the slot. Al the talk of using Hillis and Hardesty together has not born any fruit. It's bad we have only 8 plays of 20+ total on the season, but how many of those were on balls that were actually THROWN 20 yards down field?

This is NOT the WCO. I'd be happy if they ran the actual WCO. This is crap.

Team does take it's cues and identity from the HC and Strep-Gate, Fake FG TDs and pussyfooting on offense is not going to work in 2011.

McCoy also looks to be what he is, a roll of the dice 3rd round pick. No signs of improvement and deteriorating play overall. After 13 NFL games, albeit 5 in the current "system" (I just threw up in my mouth typing that), I would like to see some sort of barometer that even though he is off he's got the instincts or guile or something that will lead me to believe he will be a good NFL QB. Not so much. Maybe he'll "get it" in the last 11 games this year, but right now I do not see that happening.

I know in the other thread there is no way that whomever lands the #1 pick will trade it, but you HAVE to offer both #1 in 2012 and #1 in 2013 (at a minimum) for the #1 overall pick. Even if you know they won't trade it you HAVE to offer it.

This is a QB driven league with ever significant rule change giving an advantage to the offense. No QB equals no winning. Use the other rounds of the draft to fill the other talent holes. QB first.

Also, this talk of winning sausages is disturbing. Very, very disturbing.

STOP BEING SO NEGATIVE!!!!!

GO JOIN THE CIRCLE JERK OF DESPAIR!!!!

WALRUS GOT THE GUY HE WANTED!!!!!

IT'S A PROCESS AND WE ARE ONLY IN YEAR 1!!!!!

HOLMGREN UBER ALLES!!!!!!

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

I'm not either Peeks. I found him by watching that insane Baylor - TCU Friday opener, he immediately became must watch. Not even from a draft perspective, but from a athlete prospective. And that Baylor team redefines shootout.

Dear lord, you fuckin' people have to fuckin' stop it with fuckin' Mangini.

"The progress made during the Mangini era"? What, from 5-11 to 5-11?

I don't care how much Shurmur sucks, MANGINI WAS NEVER GONNA BE THE ANSWER. Not here. Not anywhere. He plays an antiquated style that only works in shitty weather. He won't touch anyone that isn't a goody-goody. He plays favorites and makes inexplicable personnel choices.

I wish someone would go and shoot him in the fuckin' head so I could stop hearing the fuckin' moaning about a guy that so fuckin' doesn't deserve it, but then we'd probably be inundated with dudes endorsing a fuckin' 10-22 Mangini statue outside the fuckin' stadium.

Fuck.

You don't like Shurmur, you want him gone, fine. But pine after a fuckin' coach that has at least a fuckin' 3% chance of making it to the fuckin' Superbowl, not that hump.

You've got wide-receivers who can't get separation, playing in a passing league on a passing oriented team, you ain't winning games.

I actually wish for the '02 recieving corp. at this point, and I'm being dead serious. KJ, Dennis Northcutt, Quincy Morgan and Andre Davis have more talent than Robiskie, MoMass and Little.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

hiko wrote:Dear lord, you fuckin' people have to fuckin' stop it with fuckin' Mangini.

"The progress made during the Mangini era"? What, from 5-11 to 5-11?

I don't care how much Shurmur sucks, MANGINI WAS NEVER GONNA BE THE ANSWER. Not here. Not anywhere. He plays an antiquated style that only works in shitty weather. He won't touch anyone that isn't a goody-goody. He plays favorites and makes inexplicable personnel choices.

I wish someone would go and shoot him in the fuckin' head so I could stop hearing the fuckin' moaning about a guy that so fuckin' doesn't deserve it, but then we'd probably be inundated with dudes endorsing a fuckin' 10-22 Mangini statue outside the fuckin' stadium.

Fuck.

You don't like Shurmur, you want him gone, fine. But pine after a fuckin' coach that has at least a fuckin' 3% chance of making it to the fuckin' Superbowl, not that hump.

And that's all I got to say about that.

Epic! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus

hiko wrote:I don't care how much Shurmur sucks, MANGINI WAS NEVER GONNA BE THE ANSWER. Not here. Not anywhere. He plays an antiquated style that only works in shitty weather. He won't touch anyone that isn't a goody-goody. He plays favorites and makes inexplicable personnel choices.

Never said he was going to be the answer. All I said was he got SOMETHING out of the little talent he had. That is more than Shurmur has done in 5 games.

Mangini wasn't the answer and after 5 games I have serious doubts Shurmur is either.

hiko wrote:I don't care how much Shurmur sucks, MANGINI WAS NEVER GONNA BE THE ANSWER. Not here. Not anywhere. He plays an antiquated style that only works in shitty weather. He won't touch anyone that isn't a goody-goody. He plays favorites and makes inexplicable personnel choices.

Never said he was going to be the answer. All I said was he got SOMETHING out of the little talent he had. That is more than Shurmur has done in 5 games.

Mangini wasn't the answer and after 5 games I have serious doubts Shurmur is either.

Thanks for coming in today. Have a nice week.

Was there something in particular that made you think I was speaking directly to you?

Yes, the way things have looked, I too would rather have Mangini than Shurmur right now, kind of in the same way that I'd rather have chlamydia than cancer. But what I'd really like to have is neither, thus why I don't see the need to even mention that STD that I no longer even have.

pup wrote:If people could only separate Mangini the HC from Mangini the GM.

Certainly, the GM blew goats.

But the coach was working. Except he didn't make his OC throw enough passes. At least we got that fixed.

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I'm speaking specifically about Mangini the HC. We all know Mangini the GM was an epic fail.

I don't think he was working. Nothing showed me that he was on the verge of success, especially not how the team died down the stretch. He had only 2 wins that impressed me in his 2 years. He played not to lose, conservative bullshit which I hated. I don't care if he throws the ball a lot or not (you really have to be competent at both), I just disliked his style of coaching and I'm glad to see him gone because as far as I'm concerned a guy like that might produce some decent teams from time to time but will never even sniff a championship. And all I care about is winning a championship.

If you saw greatness in him, I respect your opinion. But I didn't see anything of the sort, so I just don't get it at all. To me, it makes as much sense as Shurmur getting fired at the end of the year and then someone bringing him up in 2012 in the context of "If only we had Shurmur..." just because Holmgren brought in someone even more useless than Shurmur was/is.

Has anyone ever asked themselves why a man like Mike Holmgren has allowed the Hillis situation to drag out like it has, because Holmgren and Heckert are the only two people who can end this.

Hiko is right about a lot of things, and it's worth adding this whole Hillis situation is very "Mangini-esque." Hillis was Mangini's guy, so this front office will be difficult in dealing with him to remind everyone who is in charge.

Then we're going to shove Montario Hardesty down your throat even though he can't catch, stops moving his legs the second he gets touched (probably afraid of blowing another knee out), and generally is useless. But he's "our" pick so fuck you!!

Holmgren and Heckert allow a first-year head coach to be his own offensive coordinator and wonder why it looks like Brian Daboll keeps sneaking into Berea and leaving his suck mojo in the conference room.

We are the Detroit Lions of the Matt Millen era and it goes back to ownership. Until we have an owner that will hold his front office accountable for playing favorites and not making good football decisions, we will continue to suck. Of course, we have to have an onwer who doesn't wet himself and start crying at the thought of having anything to do with this team.

Getting Andrew Luck won't change anything with this team because the culture up top has to change. Until that does, you can bring (Insert Hall of Fame QB Here) and this team still would be challenged to win more than four games. Luck would be destroyed in two seasons here with this front office.

justmebd wrote:Has anyone ever asked themselves why a man like Mike Holmgren has allowed the Hillis situation to drag out like it has, because Holmgren and Heckert are the only two people who can end this.

Hiko is right about a lot of things, and it's worth adding this whole Hillis situation is very "Mangini-esque." Hillis was Mangini's guy, so this front office will be difficult in dealing with him to remind everyone who is in charge.

Then we're going to shove Montario Hardesty down your throat even though he can't catch, stops moving his legs the second he gets touched (probably afraid of blowing another knee out), and generally is useless. But he's "our" pick so fuck you!!

Holmgren and Heckert allow a first-year head coach to be his own offensive coordinator and wonder why it looks like Brian Daboll keeps sneaking into Berea and leaving his suck mojo in the conference room.

We are the Detroit Lions of the Matt Millen era and it goes back to ownership. Until we have an owner that will hold his front office accountable for playing favorites and not making good football decisions, we will continue to suck. Of course, we have to have an onwer who doesn't wet himself and start crying at the thought of having anything to do with this team.

Getting Andrew Luck won't change anything with this team because the culture up top has to change. Until that does, you can bring (Insert Hall of Fame QB Here) and this team still would be challenged to win more than four games. Luck would be destroyed in two seasons here with this front office.

Very astute. The seemingly Mangini-esque treatment of Hillis has been distressing to me... I was hoping this bullshit followed Mangini out the door. Guess Eric wasn't the only football guy that lets his ego perform a hostile takeover on his brain.

justmebd wrote:Has anyone ever asked themselves why a man like Mike Holmgren has allowed the Hillis situation to drag out like it has, because Holmgren and Heckert are the only two people who can end this.

Hiko is right about a lot of things, and it's worth adding this whole Hillis situation is very "Mangini-esque." Hillis was Mangini's guy, so this front office will be difficult in dealing with him to remind everyone who is in charge.

Then we're going to shove Montario Hardesty down your throat even though he can't catch, stops moving his legs the second he gets touched (probably afraid of blowing another knee out), and generally is useless. But he's "our" pick so fuck you!!

Holmgren and Heckert allow a first-year head coach to be his own offensive coordinator and wonder why it looks like Brian Daboll keeps sneaking into Berea and leaving his suck mojo in the conference room.

We are the Detroit Lions of the Matt Millen era and it goes back to ownership. Until we have an owner that will hold his front office accountable for playing favorites and not making good football decisions, we will continue to suck. Of course, we have to have an onwer who doesn't wet himself and start crying at the thought of having anything to do with this team.

Getting Andrew Luck won't change anything with this team because the culture up top has to change. Until that does, you can bring (Insert Hall of Fame QB Here) and this team still would be challenged to win more than four games. Luck would be destroyed in two seasons here with this front office.

I have banged on Lerner since Collins-gate. No doubt the guy has been a disaster of an owner - so much so that hes abdicated most of the responsibilities to Holmgren. Sorry, but the buck stops 100% with Walrus. His guys, his scheme, his team. Lerner just writes checks, and now has little or no input on the day 2 day.

As far as accountability, Holmgren pulled the hoodie over Lerner's eyes last year by keeping Coach Which Shall Not Be Named. In essence, he bought himslef 12 extra months to dick around. So, from Randy's misguided POV, we are 5 games into a new regime. No way Holmgren gets run anytime soon.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

hiko wrote:I don't care how much Shurmur sucks, MANGINI WAS NEVER GONNA BE THE ANSWER. Not here. Not anywhere. He plays an antiquated style that only works in shitty weather. He won't touch anyone that isn't a goody-goody. He plays favorites and makes inexplicable personnel choices.

Never said he was going to be the answer. All I said was he got SOMETHING out of the little talent he had. That is more than Shurmur has done in 5 games.

Mangini wasn't the answer and after 5 games I have serious doubts Shurmur is either.

Thanks for coming in today. Have a nice week.

With all the expletives in your post I had no idea whom you were referring too. I have been MIA for too long so I figured I'd chime in.

My point was despite the talent level on your team you still have to use the weapons you have. Previous Coach seemed to do that a little better than Current Coach has done so far. Not saying Current Coach can't learn but seems disturbing after 5 games.

It's like yor eyeball test with Current QB. Current Coach isn't passing it right now either. Former Coach didn't either.

Even if this team was 3-2 or 4-1 they'd still have the same concerns they currently have.

My "thanks for comign in today" line was something that goes back to my DC days that isn't meant as an insult. Sorry if you thought I was being a d!ck.

I'm waiting for someone to suggest that 'Daboll-esque' might not exactly be the insult you thought it was last season.

Last I looked Carolina was ahead of Houston, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Buffalo, San Diego and Atlanta, plus 20-ish other teams with Brian Daboll calling the plays and with a rookie QB.

They're 4th in passing and top ten in rushing.

If Daboll wasn't your cup of tea maybe it's got less to do with him than what was around him in terms of talent and philosophy.

I can think of a couple guys who took shit around here as OCs going elsewhere and having a great deal more success. Daboll looks a lot better now than he did last year, no? And I think Bruce Arians is much smarter in Pittsburgh than he was here too.

peeker643 wrote:I'm waiting for someone to suggest that 'Daboll-esque' might not exactly be the insult you thought it was last season.

Last I looked Carolina was ahead of Houston, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Buffalo, San Diego and Atlanta, plus 20-ish other teams with Brian Daboll calling the plays and with a rookie QB.

They're 4th in passing and top ten in rushing.

If Daboll wasn't your cup of tea maybe it's got less to do with him than what was around him in terms of talent and philosophy.

I can think of a couple guys who took shit around here as OCs going elsewhere and having a great deal more success. Daboll looks a lot better now than he did last year, no? And I think Bruce Arians is much smarter in Pittsburgh than he was here too.

I see the point you're trying to make, but I disagree.

I'm surrounded by pittspuke fans, and the few intelligent ones you actually can have a discussion with all say the same thing "Just think how good this offense could be if we had a good OC."

Arians is an average coach surrounded by good talent.

As for Daboll, the Dolphins are being much more aggressive on offense per Owners' directive, but if you look closer, you'll see the Dolphins move down the field a little better than the Browns did the last two years, but once they hit the red zone, they crap the bed. Daboll is Daboll, he'll only be as good as the players and coaches around him because he's just a mediocre coach. (And he'll be out of a job again once Sparano is fired)

peeker643 wrote:I'm waiting for someone to suggest that 'Daboll-esque' might not exactly be the insult you thought it was last season.

Last I looked Carolina was ahead of Houston, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Buffalo, San Diego and Atlanta, plus 20-ish other teams with Brian Daboll calling the plays and with a rookie QB.

They're 4th in passing and top ten in rushing.

If Daboll wasn't your cup of tea maybe it's got less to do with him than what was around him in terms of talent and philosophy.

I can think of a couple guys who took shit around here as OCs going elsewhere and having a great deal more success. Daboll looks a lot better now than he did last year, no? And I think Bruce Arians is much smarter in Pittsburgh than he was here too.

I see the point you're trying to make, but I disagree.

I'm surrounded by pittspuke fans, and the few intelligent ones you actually can have a discussion with all say the same thing "Just think how good this offense could be if we had a good OC."

Arians is an average coach surrounded by good talent.

As for Daboll, the Dolphins are being much more aggressive on offense per Owners' directive, but if you look closer, you'll see the Dolphins move down the field a little better than the Browns did the last two years, but once they hit the red zone, they crap the bed. Daboll is Daboll, he'll only be as good as the players and coaches around him because he's just a mediocre coach. (And he'll be out of a job again once Sparano is fired)

Fair enough on Arians. But I'd argue Arians was considered less than average here.

And I was talking about Chudzinski in Carolina. My bad. But the point remains valid in my opinion. Just wondering whether you can ever accurately gauge a coordinator's worthiness in all of this turmoil and constant upheaval.

I want to see a guy on the sidelines with some passion and color out there.

Not saying I want the guy to go madden and fake a field goal on a 3rd and 1, but I look at guys like the Harbaughs, Schwartz, Ryans, Tomlins, Paytons of the world, and those are the type of guys I want to see coach my team.

It's tiring to see these guys like Crennel, Mangini and Shurmer, who are so beyond inexperienced in dealing with the locker room and being on the sidelines.

Now, we know it isn't going to be Cowher, Gruden, or Fisher, but hell, find me the "Next" one of those guys.

And as for the QB position and the offense as a whole, to quote Cobain, "Here we are now, entertain us". I want to tune in every Sunday and be amazed. I don't care the way, be it with a super smart QB like Manning or just an amazingly athletic one like Cam Newton. Give me a reason to be excited for the whole week.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.