John Wall wants playoffs over rookie of the year

After putting on an show in his pro debut at Madison Square Garden, electrifying the crowd with his blazing speed and finishing with 19 points and six assists, No. 1 overall pick John Wall left an impression on New York Knicks Coach Mike D'Antoni. D'Antoni told reporters that Wall is "probably one of the fastest, most physically gifted players that we'll have in the league ... I hope he never learns to shoot real well, because then, he would be unguardable."

Actually, I'd like to get both. (AP Photo)

One Eastern Conference scout in attendance said teams will give Wall "the LeBron treatment" his rookie year and force him to beat them by shooting the ball. Wall will certainly need to work on his jump shot as the season progresses and teams find a way to contain his speed. Nearly 68 percent of NBA General Managers have already selected Wall as the favorite to win the rookie of the year, with last year's No. 1 overall pick Blake Griffin -- who missed all of last season with a knee injury -- coming in as a distant second.

When asked about winning the rookie of the year, Wall said Sunday night that it was not his primary goal this season.

"To be honest, I'll take playoffs first and then rookie of the year second. That's the type of person I am," Wall said. "Rookie of the year would be great to have, as an individual goal, but like I told you, if I get better individually and worry about individual goals for myself in this team, it's not going to help this organization get to where it wants to be -- and that's hopefully a playoff contender and before I end my career, a championship contender. The main thing is focusing on the team and worrying about myself second."

Through the first six preseason games, Wall has averaged a team-best 16.2 points, 8.0 assists and 2.2 steals, while logging 35.3 minutes. He's had one double-double and two games with at least nine assists. But some other rookies have been putting up some monster numbers in the preseason, namely Griffin and Wall's teammate at Kentucky last season, DeMarcus Cousins. Griffin is averaging a double-double with 17.3 points and 12.3 rebounds for the Los Angeles Clippers in 29.5 minutes. Cousins is averaging 16.4 points and 9.6 rebounds for the Sacramento Kings in just over 25 minutes.

"I already knew DeMarcus was going to put up those kinds of numbers," Wall said. "He's a talented rookie, just like other guys that came in. He's getting the ball in the post and he's a load in the paint to get rebounds. I wish the best of luck to all the players that came from Kentucky."

"That's what you need, though. I don't want ... he shouldn't have to say, 'John is going to win rookie of the year; Blake Griffin is going to be rookie of the year.' You have to be that confident in yourself and I'm not mad at him or knocking him or nothing like that. That's how he got to be. This is a different team for him. He's the big man on their team to hopefully help them win a lot of games. He should want to win rookie of the year. Every rookie that come into the league should want to win rookie of the year. I'm proud of him. If he win it or anybody else wins it, I'm going to be happy for him, no matter what."

It's easy to talk that talk now, and I'm not saying he won't ultimately back it up. However, I've already seen enough me-first moments that his sentiments don't exactly bowl me over. It's admirable talk to be sure, but I'm taking a wait-and-see approach. I hope his play is reflective of his words. We will need for him to play that way. If he does, we could finish the season at .500 or better.

"I agree with divi3 about the rebounding situation. No conincidence that once again the Wiz outrebounded their opponent when they start a more traditional lineup with Martin at SF. posted by and_1"

Although the team's leading rebounder was Kirk Hinrich with 9. Cartier Martin had 3.

Makes me wonder how you arrived at that conclusion. Martin's big contribution seemed to be defensive, on Gallinari, and well away from the basket.

Posted by: Samson151 | October 18, 2010 1:58 PM

Everyone is crying about rebounding when Flip goes with the 3 guard lineup, but Kirk lead the team with 9 boards last night.

I am not a fan of the 3 guard lineup but to say our rebounding suffers with Kirk on the floor seems patently wrong. Maybe Offensive boards, but not rebounding as a whole.

Posted by: Blurred | October 18, 2010 12:15 PM

Prior to last night, Hinrich had been averaging 2.4 rebounds per game while logging big minutes. If you look at the first four games (when Flip started 3 guards), he averaged 2.3 rebounds as our small forward.

Don't get me wrong, Kirk did a good job trapping a lot of long rebounds last night (while defending PGs and SGs and presumably getting the rebounds over PGs and SGs, mind you), but let's not confuse him with Shawn Marion or Josh Smith, okay?

My argument is that Martin and Thornton are the better options at small forward for a team that Flip says is rebounding-challenged.

Don't get me wrong, Kirk did a good job trapping a lot of long rebounds last night (while defending PGs and SGs and presumably getting the rebounds over PGs and SGs, mind you), but let's not confuse him with Shawn Marion or Josh Smith, okay?

My argument is that Martin and Thornton are the better options at small forward for a team that Flip says is rebounding-challenged.

Posted by: and_1 | October 18, 2010 2:27 PM | Report abuse

Well the issue with that is...starting thornton or martin...sometimes rebounding isn't as much of an issue...because rebounds don't count when the ball goes through the basket. =|

KH was anointed starter and capt before he ever set foot in VC, and Gil must be kept happy and productive on the off chance the team can move him. That's why Flip will go with a 3 guard lineup to start games, even if it's not the rotation that sees the majority of minutes.

Despite whatever happy-talk goes on, gotta remember Flip would trade Gil today if he could. Understandably, he'd rather win 28 games without Gil than 38 games with him. Surely EG feels the same way, as for Ted, who knows

Why is Wall averaging 35+ minutes a game? Is Flipper trying to kill him. NO other player is logging those kind of minutes in the preseason. Flipper is gonna run him into a wall before the all star break. Am I missing something here?
Anyone>

My argument is that Martin and Thornton are the better options at small forward for a team that Flip says is rebounding-challenged.Posted by: and_1

Marginally better. The challenge is getting consistent effort from the bigs.

Posted by: djnnnou | October 18, 2010 3:25 PM

True. But Thornton has averaged 5 rebs a game at 26 minutes of playing time over his career. Who knows, if Flip tells him that rebounding keeps him on the floor, maybe he gets more. He certainly doesn't seem to shy away from contact and banging.

Well the issue with that is...starting thornton or martin...sometimes rebounding isn't as much of an issue...because rebounds don't count when the ball goes through the basket. =|

Posted by: SDMDTSU

I distinctly remember Al Thornton in Wiz uni giving Camelo Anthony the business at the VC last season. He frustrated the hell out of Anthony. Thornton can definitely play defense and has quick feet. My beef with Thornton is his shot selection.

"My argument is that Martin and Thornton are the better options at small forward for a team that Flip says is rebounding-challenged.Posted by: and_1"

LOL, then you should have made that argument instead of the one you actually made. You said "no conincidence that once again the Wiz outrebounded their opponent when they start a more traditional lineup with Martin at SF." Fact is, the starting guards, Wall and Hinrich, outrebounded Blatche and McGee, 14 to 13.

I never get too excited over who starts and who comes off the bench. What counts is the minutes each plays, and how well the team plays with him on the floor. Being a starter may count at contract time, but not when the team takes the floor against an opponent.

I never get too excited over who starts and who comes off the bench. What counts is the minutes each plays, and how well the team plays with him on the floor. Being a starter may count at contract time, but not when the team takes the floor against an opponent.

KH getting 9rebs at SG while averaging 2.4 at SF supports the argument that Thornton/Martin are better options at SF. So does watching nba basketball and taking note there may not be a 6'5" starting SF in the entire league- let alone a 6'3" SF.

I don't see how that fact changes my initial statement. The Wiz outrebounded their opponent when the Wiz started a more traditional lineup. It is a major plus that we didn't see Kirk getting outrebounded this time. Maybe because he wasn't guarding and trying to block out forwards. ;-)

Didnt 'Melo have a better rookie season than LeCrybaby? Dont remember off the top, but do recall thinking Anthony deserved it

Posted by: divi3 | October 18, 2010 3:46 PM | Report abuse
I think Bron got an all star nod as a rook. If he did, it's tough to put Melo over him, plus Melo may have been outscoring Bron, but Tha Kang has been hanging around 20+ 7+ and 7+ since he was a rook.

Why is Wall averaging 35+ minutes a game? Is Flipper trying to kill him. NO other player is logging those kind of minutes in the preseason. Flipper is gonna run him into a wall before the all star break. Am I missing something here?
Anyone>

Posted by: skins_fan_22 | October 18, 2010 3:46 PM | Report

Flip is gonna play who he wants to play, even at the detriment of the team. Get used to it.

You are "cherrypicking" this statistic, when you know that Hinrich and Wall played double the minutes that Blatche and McGee played. McGee only played 15 minutes and Blatche played 26 where Hinrich and Wall played around 35 minutes each.

Fact is Hinrich's rebound total is an anomaly, not a consistent number by any historical regular or preseason measure.

"You are "cherrypicking" this statistic, when you know that Hinrich and Wall played double the minutes that Blatche and McGee played. McGee only played 15 minutes and Blatche played 26 where Hinrich and Wall played around 35 minutes each.Fact is Hinrich's rebound total is an anomaly, not a consistent number by any historical regular or preseason measure.Posted by: NewManagement"

LOL they're guards. Guards. You know, the two shorter guys who play way outside on the perimeter? Not supposed to put together 14 rebounds, even in 40 minutes.

And_1 had just got through asserting that the Wiz outboarded the Knicks because Cartier Martin started at SF instead of Hinrich. We just pointed out that Sunday's game proved nothing of the kind. Cartier spent most of his 20+ minutes out on the perimeter preventing Gallinari from launching bombs. Not a big factor on the boards.

"I don't see how that fact changes my initial statement. The Wiz outrebounded their opponent when the Wiz started a more traditional lineup. It is a major plus that we didn't see Kirk getting outrebounded this time." posted by and_1

Because that original statement of yours made the correlation between starting Cartier Martin at SF and the Wiz' success on the boards, and there's no evidence the one was responsible for the other. Capisc?

I think the NBA GMs picked Wall to win RoY because they think he'll turn out to be the best player, more valuable than Griffin or Cousins. As far as awards go, there are always upsets. I thought Sacramento was the best possible destination for Cousins, and the Clips are a very good place for Blake, so one of them could very well win the award.

I'd be surprised if either turns out to be as good as Wall in a few years, however. David Stern is really hoping this guy stays healthy.

Because that original statement of yours made the correlation between starting Cartier Martin at SF and the Wiz' success on the boards, and there's no evidence the one was responsible for the other. Capisc?

Posted by: Samson151 | October 18, 2010 6:12 P

And your statement assumes that there is no correlation between Martin guarding Gallinari and Hinrich getting rebounds because he didn't have to guard him. Clearly, Hinrich can't be in two places at one time (guarding a small forward while battling PGs and SGs for rebounds). The correlation is inherent. Capish?

Further, nothing alters the fact that heading into the Knicks game, Hinrich was the worst rebounding small forward on the team when you adjust for minutes played. The absolute worst. Yes, that means I'm including Morrison too. LOL.

"And your statement assumes that there is no correlation between Martin guarding Gallinari and Hinrich getting rebounds because he didn't have to guard him." posted by and_1

No, it doesn't. Just that you haven't proved your point about the importance of Martin in the starting lineup. And you still haven't, as far as I can tell.

"Clearly, Hinrich can't be in two places at one time (guarding a small forward while battling PGs and SGs for rebounds). The correlation is inherent. Capish?"

Can't capisc, because it doesn't mean anything. We don't know why Hinrich got so many rebounds in that game. You're just making an assumption. Prove it.

"Further, nothing alters the fact that heading into the Knicks game, Hinrich was the worst rebounding small forward on the team when you adjust for minutes played. The absolute worst. Yes, that means I'm including Morrison too. LOL."

So what? He certainly wasn't the Wiz' worst rebounder in that particular game, was he? And that's the weakness in your original position.

The point is that having Cartier Martin at small forward at the start of that game didn't clearly affect the Wiz' rebounding totals. For some reason, Hinrich wound up getting a bunch of rebounds.

Hinrich has started at SG or PG the past three games (Atl, Milw, NY). The Wizards have not been outrebounded since Flip moved him to playing primarily those two positions. When he started at small forward for the games prior to the last three (Dal, Clev, Chi), the Wizards were outrebounded in each of those games.

I distinctly remember Al Thornton in Wiz uni giving Camelo Anthony the business at the VC last season. He frustrated the hell out of Anthony. Thornton can definitely play defense and has quick feet. My beef with Thornton is his shot selection.

Posted by: bobabuie | October 18, 2010 4:14 PM | Report abuse

Why do people select one game and apply it to players? Sure that happened. Yes Nick had a couple good defensive games on Wade, Iggy and Billups. Yes LaBradford Smith gave Jordan the biz once. All in all...it doesn't mean anything unless it's consistent.

Thornton only played half a season with the Wiz SDMDTSU so there isn't a huge sample of games from which to choose, is there?

Al also gave Paul Pierce the business in the infamous April win in Boston.

Like Phil Jackson I repeat: Thornton works hard and embraces the big challenges. He would never complain about plays being run for him and is more than willing to throw his body around in the lane. Does he get a bit out of control at times? Sure, but he certainly is more substance than style.

Isn't that what Flip wants from McGee? Al gave it up last year coach. Let the guy start and go with 3-guards as a bullpen look.

ROBINS CENTER, I believe. Yeah, I'll bring my eldest grandson, and we'll meet up for the Black and Blue Classic. That's usually around Christmas.

Losing DAVID GONZOLVEZ and RYAN BUTLER's gonna' hurt. Don't know if the new beef inside will show up or not. Pretty much the same as SMART's group. KEVIN ANDERSON will need somebody to set screens for drives and dinks, or he'll struggle now that GONZOLVEZ is gone.

"Facts are facts, Sampson.Hinrich has started at SG or PG the past three games (Atl, Milw, NY). The Wizards have not been outrebounded since Flip moved him to playing primarily those two positions. When he started at small forward for the games prior to the last three (Dal, Clev, Chi), the Wizards were outrebounded in each of those games. Even Flip knows that.Posted by: and_1"

Nice try.

Fact: you asserted that starting Cartier Martin at SF against NY led to the Wiz' rebounding advantage.

Fact: Martin had only 3 rebounds and was not much of a factor on the boards.

Conclusion: The Knicks game doesn't prove your point at all -- seems in fact to contradict it.

You picked a poor example. Instead of acknowledging that, you've devoted your energy to introducing a lot of other data that you should have used in the first place, instead of the NY game.

"Why do people select one game and apply it to players? Sure that happened. Yes Nick had a couple good defensive games on Wade, Iggy and Billups. Yes LaBradford Smith gave Jordan the biz once. All in all...it doesn't mean anything unless it's consistent.Posted by: SDMDTSU"

It sure doesn't mean much, except that player X or player Y is capable of defensive success against certain opponents, when so motivated... which we already knew. Most really good athletes are. Consistent defensive success, however, is about effort, smarts, and discipline, which is why somebody like Shane Battier or Bruce Bowen can be so effective for such a long time.

All-around stars like Jordan and Kobe are always the exception, not the rule.

"Thornton only played half a season with the Wiz SDMDTSU so there isn't a huge sample of games from which to choose, is there?"

Why restrict it to the Wiz? He's played in 225 NBA games and started 64% of them, averaging around 31 minutes. Watching him play, he seems a very talented offensive player. Looking at the numbers, a couple potential flaws jump out: first, in every season, he's averaged more turnovers than assists. Second, he picks up fouls (averaging almost 3 a game).

There's probably not a whole lot of reason to expect him to change much at this point. I'm just hoping he's healthy, in condition, and on the court when they need him. As far as starting, who cares?

Anyone who'd like to see the team's best unit on the floor to start games. Whether that's the 3 guard or something else, doesn't make sense to go into games thinking "Who cares if we dig an early hole, our best rotation will be coming in at some point."

Fact: you asserted that starting Cartier Martin at SF against NY led to the Wiz' rebounding advantage.

Actually this is what I said:

"No conincidence that once again the Wiz outrebounded their opponent when they start a more traditional lineup with Martin at SF."

Clearly, you'd love to focus solely on the Martin aspect but since he's only started one game, it should be obvious that I'm talking about the traditional lineup that the Wizards once again utilized, meaning someone approaching average length for the position. Hinrich ain't that.

Conclusion: The Knicks game doesn't prove your point at all -- seems in fact to contradict it.

Actually, it proves my point perfectly. The Wizards once again outrebounded their opponent when they utilize a more traditional lineup with size at the position of small forward, instead of the 6'3" Hinrich.

If the team had to choose between keeping Armstrong or Seraphin right now, who would they want? Thankfully they dont have to make that decision, but is it odd that Armstrong is playing so many minutes while KS gets nothing? Or was that to be expected from a guy EG targeted to acquire as an additional 1st rounder? All this rebounding talk has me wondering why KS cant get on the floor, when he was specifically spoken of as a defender who will crash the boards.

I think the Wizards keep Armstrong right now. The starters will probably make token appearances tonight so maybe Seraphin gets an extended look.

Come to think of it, I don't know what the Wizards have in Seraphin. Is he not playing because he's extremely raw, is still not fully recovered from his knee injury or is the language barrier retarding his growth? Maybe it's a combination of all three or none of the above.

SEraphin, Booker,N'Daye each were rated well at their positions. NDaye is like McGee without the offensive game. So McGee is getting the chance to show he can do it. On the defensive end H can learn where he needs to be on this team. He can sky and he can run, now he needs to be brought along. Seraphin is coming off an injury and joining the team when they are in full stride. He too must learn the defensive assignments and polish a go to move. Booker is big, gast, strong and athletic like the other two. He is a tweener. He must get his shot to drop and he will be on the floor.Maybe D league for all three. Probably Booker stays with main squad. All good picks, we dont need any of them urgently at this moment. We have our starting and backup PF & C.

The truth of our SF position is that it s hodge-podge until Howard comes back and is healthy. Much like the Bulls' SG position, there are a lot of candidates, none of them ideal. Kirk is the best overall player, but obviously not ideal size. He brings another veteran presence, ball movement, ball handling, decision-making, decent shooting, and team defense. Thornton brings size, strength, and a degree of toughness and rebounding, but isn't a great shooter, handler, or decision maker. Martin brings a little more athleticism, better size, probably a better individual defender, decent shooting, but also lacks handling, decision-making and experience.

In terms of the rebounding, Thornton vs KH vs Cartier (hey, has anyone heard the story of how he got his name?.....kidding!) will make a degree of difference, especially based on who the opposing SF is. But regardless of who it is, the tale will ultimately be told by overall team effort. AB is a decent rebounder, but not a dominant one. McGee can be a dominant rebounder, but will struggle with conditioning and fouls this season. Yi can be a good rebounder, but will struggle with fouls and aggressiveness. And on down the line. The Wiz currently have no one like a Dwight Howard or even a Camby, Randolph or Lee who can be counted on night in and night out on the boards, so it will have to be a team focus. That's why it was good to see KH and Thornton hit the boards Sunday and Young hit the boards the game before.

Were it me, I would make the SF starting position situational depending on the matchup and then substitute based on whose playing well that night. It's a little tougher on those players, because their minutes are more uncertain, but all of them will likely play enough minutes until Howard is back. It seems like for now, Flip is more committed to the 3-guard look to start, but we'll see.

someone very early on posted that we needed consistent effort from certain players, I think McGee and AB were the ones cited. I would change that slightly. I think both players generally give effort. What you would like to see is consistent RESULTS/PRODUCTION.
Now you're talking. Etan Thomas gave effort even though he was (and still is) horrible.

someone very early on posted that we needed consistent effort from certain players, I think McGee and AB were the ones cited. I would change that slightly. I think both players generally give effort. What you would like to see is consistent RESULTS/PRODUCTION.
Now you're talking. Etan Thomas gave effort even though he was (and still is) horrible.

As for guys like Seraphin and H, my guess is that they're not out there because they're still working on being where they're supposed to be on the floor. My instinct is that you want to get the young guys out there, just to get the flavor while the games don't matter. But then I look at the guys who are getting the minutes, and most of those guys are young(er) guys too.

I'm also of the same opinion as a lot of you that they should dial back Wall's minutes for the last bit of the preseason (and maybe the season). I know he's eager and obviously wants the RoY, but I don't think there's anything wrong with having him sit a bit and watch the game too.

@1bmffwb I believe they can only officially 'assign' two players at a time to the D-League. And each of those players takes up a roster spot on the big club. Doesn't sound like much on a roster of 15, but if you start getting injuries, rotations, and especially practices get a little tighter.

Since they essentially told KS they wouldn't send him to the D-League, going to say that he's on the big league club regardless. Obviously with H, they want him to find a spot on a team in Europe so they can retain his rights but not use a roster spot. We'll see. Not playing much for the NBA team probably doesn't help his chances. Given his college experience, there's not much for Booker in the D-League. He needs to be with the pro team working on his skills against pro players.

If they're going to use the 3-guard lineup, or even just given the amount of minutes Wall, Gil and KH are likely to see, I'm still guessing they keep Hudson. Especially given that Gil is still essentially working his way back and may miss time due to soreness, etc. Can't see NY getting cut at this point. He's still cheap and has more talent and potential than anyone else he's competing with.

I'm expecting them to keep Hudson, Martin and H. H gets sent to the D-League. If H gets a spot overseas, then they keep Marks instead as a warm practice body / six more fouls. I haven't seen anything from Morrison to justify keeping him. I'm hoping they cut him loose.

If the performance of those small lineups above tell us anything — and they might not, given sample size issues — it’s that teams using them must work very hard to make up for a deficit on the defensive glass. Interestingly, though, the numbers show small lineups might actually be better at grabbing offensive boards. That could be a function of increased quickness and the fact that such lineups likely drag one opposing big man out of the lane.

My guess is the decision to not offer Singleton a contract was based on the belief that Booker/Seraphin will both contribute this year.

Posted by: divi3

Or that even if they don't, they should be getting some of those minutes so they can learn. In a year (or two) where getting our young players on the court should be a priority, I'm all for not arming Flip with any more vets than needed. He seems to get caught up on certain players (see Boykins, Earl). Singleton's effort, reboudning and consistency could definitely help this team this year, but since, at worst, I think Booker is a Singleton-type player, might as well let Booker get those minutes.

"Singleton's effort, reboudning and consistency could definitely help this team this year, but since, at worst, I think Booker is a Singleton-type player, might as well let Booker get those minutes.Posted by: ts35"

Right. Singleton's a rebounder. Even if the Wiz kept him, there'd still be matchup problems in the middle. And fewer minutes for the other guys, which would lead to complaints about Flip not playing the kids, which would lead to... oh, heck, you know where that leads.

"Griffin is averaging a double-double with 17.3 points and 12.3 rebounds for the Los Angeles Clippers in 29.5 minutes. Cousins is averaging 16.4 points and 9.6 rebounds for the Sacramento Kings in just over 25 minutes."

Yeah, I think those two guys are in close to ideal situations for their respective talents. Tyreke Evans will take the burden of being primary scorer off Cousins, and the Clips are pretty talented even without Blake. That's a lot better situation than if DeMarcus had gone to Philadelphia.

Question about Cousins isn't what he can do in 25 minutes, it's what he can do in 30-36. He averaged something like 24 minutes in college. The guy has something of a conditioning problem.

Yeah, I think those two guys are in close to ideal situations for their respective talents. Tyreke Evans will take the burden of being primary scorer off Cousins, and the Clips are pretty talented even without Blake. That's a lot better situation than if DeMarcus had gone to Philadelphia.

Question about Cousins isn't what he can do in 25 minutes, it's what he can do in 30-36. He averaged something like 24 minutes in college. The guy has something of a conditioning problem.

Posted by: Samson151

The only problem I see with the Kings is if Evans and Cousins don't mesh. Both want to be go-to guys and (I would think) take a lot of shots. If Evans starts shooting his jumper over passing in the paint, or Cousins doesn't pass the ball out from good coverage or double-teams, there could be issues.

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