Just in case it should happen as you suggest I’m claiming the Eastern US states on the coastline from Maryland to the Georgia State line as mine.

Cool.

I’ll take the inland Appalachian Redoubt from the Pennsylvania line south down to northern Georgia, following along the Blue Ridge Mountains.

From the Blue Ridge Mountains west to the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers – West Virginia, Southern Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, and the Chatahooche Forest in North GA. Just draw a line from there straight west across northern Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi… you – or someone – can have Bombingham and Atlanta. I have no interest in them. That is, provided I get access to the Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic Ocean unmolested. We need an outlet to the sea.

100 years ago most people that had any semblance of middle class status had live-in servants. Servants got room & board and a pittance for pay and were better off than many many others in a day and age without entitlements or safety nets. Also, 100 years ago, anyone with a room to spare took in boarders to earn a little extra cash. Our modern concepts of privacy and space hadn’t taken hold yet. Such systems could work again.

I haven’t read the whole thread, but my parents lived through the Depression. A retired, single teacher had lost all her savings in a bank failure. She came to live with my grandparents as their cook and housekeeper–room, board, and $5 per week (not bad for the time.) It worked for all of them. I agree that privacy and space are recent western concepts, still not reality in most areas of the world.

“It’s only prudent to become personally able to use low-tech ways to supply our needs, but to get through the next decade nationally intact, is likely going to take all of the food, fiber, metal, and energy supplies, not to mention, individual energy, that America can still produce, given our reduced and globally-dependent state. – L Tecolote

I couldn’t agree more. We as a nation have become so dependent on outsiders, how will we move forward when they no longer supply us with cheap goods or we can no longer transport those cheap goods to our shores?

“But discarding modern production techniques wholesale would only weaken the nation.” – L Tecolote

I don’t see as we have much a of a choice with oil coming down like ti is? What other options have we long term?

“You seem to think that preventing massive loss of life – what I consider to be us living beyond our carrying capacity – to be a bad thing.

In truth, I seriously doubt anything we do will mitigate the loss of life that is sure to result. Thinking we can is just typical human hubris and arrogance.

– Malgus

Again, I see it the same as this. I don’t believe we have a choice in the matter except for how to do it in the least painful way long term. No matter what loss of life will occur, either because we have less means ot heal without oil or God knows what else, or bcause the whole thing collapse due to a lack of a realistic alternative, because no one will accept what is available.

“If it goes down here in the US – and I think it will – I don’t see any reason why a neo-feudal system wouldn’t arise. Landowners will be the aristocracy, same as it ever was. People will trade their skills and labor in an effort to keep themselves and their families alive. – Malgus

I too think this is possible, but not very liekly in my own lifetime.

“Regressing to a feudal system isn’t necessarily a bad thing… at least we wouldn’t regress to complete anarchy and chaos and will have a system that will maintain – even advance – technology and have some standard of living. – Malgus

No one said it would be utopia, but it’s better than sudden chaos. It’s better than millions dying everyday for lack of food. Besides, as a Christian you should know that a man feeds his family by the sweat of his brow. How dare you shirk work and call someone else unchristian? I may be Pagan, but I was raised Christian. The one thing I was taught is that hard work never hurt anyone.

“Ahh, the “TERR-RIST!” card… In point of fact, our muzzie buddies are currently killing each other off, and I’m rooting for both sides. I don’t care which side wins or loses, so long as lots of muzzies bite the dust. – Malgus”

As a Pagan, I would be beheaded. I hate to say I feel the same way.

“there is a major population readjustment coming. It’s a foregone conclusion. It’s just a matter of when and how much of a readjustment. Those places that have the biggest populations and not the means to feed them will be hardest hit. Sorry, but I cannot devote – and refuse to devote – any concern, worry, or resources towards them. They are outside my sphere of influence. I have a say as to what happens locally and can extend a hand to a few individuals here and there, but as a whole? I couldn’t influence anything, even if I wanted to. – Malgus

We are all in that boat.

“Not all technology is good.” -Malgus

Let’s just say I agree with everything you said.

“I think mine was the last generation – Gen 13 – to be taught cursive formally in school. – Malgus

I was taught cursive in 1987. My sister was taught cursive in 1994. I am teaching my children cursive and proper English at home.

“Modern medicine has given rise to a population explosion which has generally weakened the human race as a whole. People who have inherited diseases now live long enough to pass on their defects to their children, creating even more who need special care – Malgus

I have asthma. I have 6 children. Of the 6, 1 has asthma that is so mild, she doesn’t even need medicine. The same child is disabled, because of a reaction to the swine flu vaccine. I also have one that suddenly developed hypothyroidism at the exact same time I did, right around when Fukishima went off. It was an amazin coincidence. All oter children are so healthy otherwise it’s amazing. The only time they have ever gone to the doctor are well check ups, and when they busted their knee or head riding their bikes.

I personally believe the only reason I have any unhealthy children is due to modern life in general and specifically due to modern medicine. My son that has hypothyroidism has it very mild as do I.

It is genetic that she reacted to vaccines. My father did. I did. With each generation, the reaction was stronger. Genetically, we do better in the wild. We are of Amish background though as my father was the first generation off the farm. So not all illnesses are from being inferior genetics, some is because modern medicine does not agree with the body.

“No… I welcome a population readjustment…”

I do not. Only because I know a lot of good, healthy people, stuck in a bad place will die. I hope that we can sustain enough people, even through old fashioned hard working ways, that those that can do for themselves are allowed to pass on their genes.

When was the last time you went without electricity, running water, food, and had babies screaming for food...now you know why I prep. These are the things a mother's nightmares are made of.

After you Land Barons settle the sundering of the national real estate, you can decide how many of the populace (and just whom) get to live and/or die. I suspect most of us will have to be content with more localized choices: do I help this starving so-and-so survive, or do I blow him away, the longer for my family to subsist? Do we join this bunch to help them hold off the Zombie hordes, or do we get out while the getting is still good? Of such local and individual choices will the remaining nation be made.

Thus the question of specializing vs. generalizing. I tend to agree with Heinlein’s dictum: “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” Not that I’m so versatile, nor so across-the-board competent. Few are. But the wider range of tasks any of us is able to handle, the likelier we are to (a) avoid trouble, and (b) provide for our needs, both of which increase the likelihood of survival.

Most of us having grown up, and lived in the modern world, have developed specialties, only some of which will be exactly what a society in collapse will still pay for enough to live on. To the extent that your main trade will still be in demand, Bully! But don’t count on it. Doctors are more likely to be rewarded than day-traders, mechanics more than lawyers. But we all carry the genes of people who worked and lived in the older ways we expect to need. If they could do it, we could learn to do so, as well.

Miz Auxsona, I’m trying to tie this back to your original theme, and I can appreciate how being part of a coherent group, religious, ethnic, or cultural, can give you the sense that you’re not alone, that you have natural allies. Tolik seems to agree, as well. I’d be interested to learn if/how your positivity goes beyond the sense that you’re part of an ancient tradition.

and robots beat humans for a slave race whirl… useless eaters…humans need not apply….. all of our problems come from one source many people competeing for same resources…. quickest fix get rid of extra … how many managers do you need? office workers? only useful when managing other humans what if you dont need to “manage them”?

All the things you have mentioned are mechanical improvement we are at the cusp of a new robotic sentience if not already there, what are most of us humans worth? not much top 85 families are worth more than bottom 50% of population,,, what value are those to the top who will make and own the robots nothing but liabilities.

look back it always goes financial collapse then war. it is always the same. Who dies alone in the front the poor and the powerless, never the rich and powerful. The best weapon of all dictators is food/water nothing kills vast amounts of people than starvation. Banks have bought up a lot of water rights and food production…. comply or starve…what do you/ most choose?

and whirl with a brain tumor….. would you really want to go through chemo? much better things out there but the system specialist will send you down the same path as the last set of corpses… heralding the successes like a casino heralds winners … remember you too can WIN.

when things come to what is legally right and what is morally right what do you choose? Remember the concentration camps on both sides of WW2 where both legal but immoral. Saying nothing means you feed the machine and are just as guilty as the person saying i was following orders….

Legal or moral, an interesting dilema.
I mentioned Christian and Malgus pooh-poohed it.
Give til it hurts. Christian charity. If circumstances were reversed, you would want someone else to think the same way.

Since moral behavior differs from person to person, pagan, christian, muslim, its a hard thing to define. Personally I find the allowance of millions to die when something can be done to be morally repugnant, others not so much. Does that put me on a higher moral plane?

Legal? I tend to follow the law and advise people to do the same. For various reasons but not the least of which, is that doing illegal things brings unwanted attention to oneself.
There is also a time to hoist the skull and crossbones and start slitting throats.

I am reminded of the Polish plumber who smuggled hundreds if not thousands of Jewish babies out of the ghettos. She had a false bottom in her toolbox. She was eventually caught, beaten and jailed. Both of her arms broken, she had a moral conviction like few others. She literally gave until it hurt.

This line says it all.
“No… I welcome a population readjustment…”
Bluntly, no response is needed to that. Moral or otherwise,

For me, I accept that a collapse from any cause will result in a significant population drop, and those deaths will include many hard working skilled good people at the same time that many lazy unskilled not so good people survive by luck of the draw. Collapses are messy affairs. Of course being hard working and skilled improves your chances of being amongst the lucky. I can’t save everyone. None of us can but I like to think that I can save a few. I’d take in young children in hopes that some cosmic karma would cause someone else to help my young granddaughters survive.

We are all the descendants of survivors. Those of us of European descent come from survivors of the Black Plague, horrific wars, crop failures, and long before any of that the last Ice Age even. To the extent that we can find strength in the religions that sustains our forebears through hard times, be it Paganism as Aukxsona does, Christianity, Judaism, or otherwise, it is a good thing. We live in the good times but we come from people who survived a much harsher world. Finding inner strength is what will get many through the transition period. Those with a victim or entitlement mentality may be amongst the first to go.

Miz Auxsona, I’m trying to tie this back to your original theme, and I can appreciate how being part of a coherent group, religious, ethnic, or cultural, can give you the sense that you’re not alone, that you have natural allies. Tolik seems to agree, as well. I’d be interested to learn if/how your positivity goes beyond the sense that you’re part of an ancient tradition. -L Tecolote

Well, I suppose I have seen how other’s have lived. My ancestors were Amish and for a short time I was left in their care. Most have modern things, but the Old Order does not use anything more than hand tools. I saw that way of life, used an out house, bathed in a bucket before, and more. They are living it right now. Life is not drudgery. It is restrictive, but not horrible.

Also, many humans today survive in very difficult conditions. How do the Masi live without oil? They do though, don’t they? So yes, I have faith in humans to prosper as a species, even if we do lose millions to the coming collapse. I think we will have to start marrying younger than 29, and may be specialize in the realm of the female sex is at home and the male sex goes out to get the bacon (or vice versa) because that is a model I have seen that works. Realistically though, the world is not ready to sacrifice, but they will be and we will be fine.

I honestly have faith in humans ability to create systems that work in the small scale. Of course, I have lived in a time of extreme peace, prosperity, and longevity. Perhaps I have rose tinted glasses?

” I’d take in young children in hopes that some cosmic karma would cause someone else to help my young granddaughters survive.” – Mountain Biker

People just like you are why I survived my childhood. I too would take children in, as many as I could feed continuously.

When was the last time you went without electricity, running water, food, and had babies screaming for food...now you know why I prep. These are the things a mother's nightmares are made of.

“After you Land Barons settle the sundering of the national real estate, you can decide how many of the populace (and just whom) get to live and/or die. ”

I can’t imagine a more difficult burden to live with and wouldn’t wish the responsibility on anyone. On a micro level I suppose it could happen. I would take that burden rather then make a younger person live with the oppressive pressure it would create.

On the other hand sarcasm runs deep here I wouldn’t get to caught up with outlandish statements one way or the other.

“After you Land Barons settle the sundering of the national real estate, you can decide how many of the populace (and just whom) get to live and/or die. ”
We land barrons dont do Nazism or Communism , everybody lives , we figure out methods to make it happen . Everybody works , everybody does something .

The reality of my pending empire of Acadia stretching from VT to Newfoundland is actually lightly populated, non-diverse, with no major cities and reasonably culturally cohesive. If we could erect a wall to keep out the BoWash hordes to the south we could probably do a pretty good job of feeding ourselves.

It’s getting rather deep in here — the subject matter, of course. What else did you think I meant? The waders are only for show. But I doubt that whatever most of us decide or say will significantly affect the survival of most of the western hemisphere’s population, one way or the other. I hope that we all manage to muddle through intact, able to straighten out the social/financial/political mess we’ve allowed “our” politicians to create, though I consider it less than likely.

Mountain Biker, how willing to be your putative subjects are those now dwelling in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland & Labrador, or does it matter? Might they not have a different opinion on the reuniting, or governance of Acadia? I guess as long as you omit Quebec, it’ll probably go okay.

I recall from my (compulsory) high school study of Longfellow’s Evangeline, that the earlier Acadians were of French descent, and spoke a dialect mixed with the local Native (“Indian”) languages. When the Brits took over Canada and chased them out of Acadia, most of them journeyed south along the Ohio/Mississippi Rivers, to New Orleans, then still in French control, where their descendants became “‘Cajuns.”