Posted
by
timothyon Sunday November 18, 2001 @02:49PM
from the if-you-care dept.

Several readers have submitted the news that the GameCube is now officially for sale. With the GameCube and Xbox newly on offer, and the still-amazing PlayStation2 still hanging on, and dirt-cheap, high-power PCs on every corner, it looks like the predicted deaths of both console and PC are still some ways off. On the whole, I'd rather have the Mandrake Gaming edition (mentioned previously) than a new console.

Can't swear about American companies (Tronix [tronixweb.com] is my normal shop for US game purchases, though), but you can pick up a Japanese unit pre-modded to play US and Japanese games from Lik-Sang [lik-sang.com] in Hong Kong for a very reasonable price. I've bought from them before, and although some of the cheaper products they sell can be a little shoddy (I wouldn't trust their step down converters as far as I could throw them after one caused my import PS2 to start smoking) they've tended to be prompt and very good for better quality kit.

My personal approach has been to pick up the JP/US Gamecube from Lik-Sang, and the US software from Tronix, who are extremely prompt with delivery (took two days from US to UK by FedEx...)

I got my hands on an xbox and halo and it is quite a nice system. The built in hd is great because you don't have to drop $$ on memory units, I did pick up the dolby digital adapter and halo and madden 2002 look and sound great (the crowd noise in madden is great).
Halo is a great game, although control IS definately a little harder without my aswd and mouse that I'm used to. Its a shame the network play isn't ready (for both xbox and halo/madden).

I give it a month before someone figures out how its doing the LAN networking and gets an VPN/IP tunneling server set up so you can do real internet play with Halo. At least thats what I am really hoping for. 4 player halo rocks (and is suprisingly managable on a 24" vega), I can't wait to try 16 player.

"GameCube and Xbox newly on offer, and the still-amazing PlayStation2 still hanging on, and dirt-cheap, high-power PCs on every corner, it looks like the predicted deaths of both console and PC are still some ways off."

Actually, in my mind at least, that's actually an indication of the problem(s) to come for hardware companies. The fact that high-powered systems are everywhere you look means the market will become saturated with "more of the same" at some point.

Already, PC hardware manufacturers are facing vanishingly small profit margins (except for Apple, which always makes it a point to sell their stuff at a price that actually makes some money). Yeah, I know all the stuff about various tech leaders making sweeping statements about "never needing more than 640K of memory" and such, but we really are headed for a "meaningful speed" cap on this.

The gaming market will probably be the last of the hardware sectors to really feel the crunch in this respect, because new games always drive hardware to the limits (unlike business apps, which run fine on my old P2-266). One could say that companies like Microsoft drive hardware with new (arguably bloated) OSes that require bigger & badder computers to run well, but even that has to stop at some point.

Basically, there will be a point soon where even gaming consoles will all be "fast enough", which will mean bad news for hardware manufacturers until the "Next Big Thing" emerges to max out even cutting-edge stuff. Will it be "true virtual reality"? Who knows? I for one will be interested to see...

Basically, there will be a point soon where even gaming consoles will all be "fast enough"

...except that it has never been about hardware performance. If it was strictly about polygons and mip-mapping, then the PS1 would not have been competition for the N64, because PS1 games all looked like shit. It's about fun games, and blockbuster titles like MGS1, Gran Turismo, Zelda, Mario, etc., make or break a system, which is why console makers love to see "exclusively for XXX" so they can have an advantage over console YYY.

If it was strictly about polygons and mip-mapping, then the PS1 would not have been competition for the N64, because PS1 games all looked like shit.

Even that isn't true. There are PS1 games that look as almost good as PC games: Crash Bandicoot 3, Crash Team Racing, Spyro the Dragon. Sure they don't look _quite_ as good as PC games, but the fact that they never ever crash or have driver problems is enough reason to buy a PS1 for $99.

Basically, there will be a point soon where even gaming consoles will all be "fast enough", which will mean bad news for hardware manufacturers until the "Next Big Thing" emerges to max out even cutting-edge stuff.

Nah, I don't think so. When you drop $1500 on a new PC, a lear later you're usually thinking, "Yeah, this is fast enough," and you don't upgrade. Consoles, at ~$300, are not as much of a problem. Besides, at that price you can buy 3 consoles before buying one new "cheap" PC, or 5 consoles for the price of a "average" PC. That's alot of upgrading.

I don't think that the "Next Big Thing" you mention will really change any of that. If a company figures out a way to make a cheap VR headset or something that could be sold at console prices, the same accessory will come out for the PC in successive months.

But, truthfully, consoles ALWAYS have a "next big thing" type of advantage over PCs that no PC can duplicate at this point. Group entertainment (read: party) games just don't go over well on a 17" monitor (or a 22".) You need a couch, a big TV, etc. And honestly, everything besides RPG and strategy on a PC is boring to me because of the lack of a social aspect. I think games are just more fun to play when people can watch what you're doing without getting a neck cramp or having to pull chairs over to sit next to you so they can see what's going on.

"Fast enough" can be an issue for someone running a word processor and internet programs, but in graphics, it is very easy to require exponentially more processing power by increasing the level of detail, and lets face it, games have a long way to go in the level of detail area. For an example of how much power you need to do detailed 3D, look at Pixar's rendering farm. They have combined processing power of 1.5THz, 8TB of RAM, and 27TB of disk space, and it still takes them hours to render one frame.

First off, from a technical standpoint, I actually feel the same way (it will never be enough). Until game environments (or just plain sims) are realistic enough that I can't tell I'm in a fantasy world, I won't be satisfied with the technical side of things.

That said, I don't think the majority of the folks out there feel that way. There's a lot to be said for the strategy aspect of games, which has been sorely lacking for some time now (IMHO, for most games). Most gamers truly care about the true quality of the games they buy, and look at "gorgeous graphics" as a secondary condition.

I could, of course, have this completely backwards. Maybe most gamers today really just care about purty graphics. If that is the case, the hardware companies don't have much to worry about, but that's also really sad. I actually still have more fun playing a few old text mode RPGs than most of today's FPS clones. Maybe I'm just odd in that, but most of my friends feel the same way. I can't claim to have any sort of truly objective view on this matter, mostly because I don't know the thousands of gamers it would take to form such a view.

"That said, I don't think the majority of the folks out there feel that way. There's a lot to be said for the strategy aspect of games, which has been sorely lacking for some time now (IMHO, for most games). Most gamers truly care about the true quality of the games they buy, and look at "gorgeous graphics" as a secondary condition."

Nah, most the poeple I talked to held out on the Dreamcast in favor of the PS2 because the PS2 would have "better" graphics.
There is no such thing as enough, we haven't even begun to explre TRUE 3D envrionments, that will require an exponentially greater ammount of power.

When my newest console can dynamically model a stadium full of people that look and sound like the real thing, maybe that will be enough.

I think that's actually pretty close. I'd bet that the next generation of consoles (say around 2005) can acheive effects comparable to the Final Fantasy movie. In other words, strikingly lifelike, but not quite 'real'. The next generation after that will be indistinguishable from reality. At that point there won't be anywhere for graphics to go.

And when all of the people in that stadium can pass a Turing test, maybe, just maybe, that will be enough.

WinME creates problems with DOS games, being that it tries so hard to hide DOS from the user--even going so far as to have Autoexec.bat and Config.sys do nothing, while the "real" files were changed. Plus, all that System Restore crap that eats resources and space--there are ways to turn it off and reclaim your space, but why bother with that bloated cruft anyway?

If you simply HAVE to have WinME, at least install it with 98lite from http://www.98lite.net --it will let you keep Syetm Restore, Web Folders, and a thousand other pieces of bloat from ever getting installed. Despite some complainers who probably used it wrong, I have never had a problem with 98lite, and I use Windows in some very stressing ways.

However, for most things--especially gaming, particularly if you want to run DOS games--Win98SE is better than WinME. WinME has more recent drivers, but any self-respecting computer user downloads the latest drivers for all their hardware from the vendors' websites anyway. Again, installed with 98lite, you can remove a lot of the unnecessary crap, making it more stable and dependable.

I have no loyalty to Bill. I disapprove strongly of Microsoft's business practices. But I also am practical enough to use the right tool for the job, and if you want to game on PCs, that tool is Win9x. That will eventually change when newer games support only the Win2k/XP family, but for now, Win98SE or WinME (properly installed) are ideal. This is why I boot into Win98 for gaming, and have chosen Win98SE as the platform I'm going to use when I build an arcade machine a la MAME, but of course with multiple other non-MAME games available. My Win98SE machine can play all the newest PC titles, a few of which I actually have, almost all of the older PC titles going all the way back to early DOS, a lot of which I have (some of the oldest need a CPU slowdown program, but still run perfectly), most of the unique Mac games from the 68k days thanks to Basilisk II booting OS 8(B2 is also available primarily for Linux, but Linux won't run all those Windoze games, soo...), all the unique Linux games not requiring 3d acceleration thanks to VMware booting Linux Mandrake, all the unique BeOS games not requiring 3d acceleration thanks again to VMWare booting Be, most of the popular and many of the unpopular Playstaion 1 titles thanks to ePSXe and Bleem!, most of the best n64 games, SNES, NES, Genesis, 2600, etc. etc. games thanks to various good emulators, and of course the ubiquitous MAME for many many great arcade titles.

Win98SE is the most versatile solution for gaming. Linux's Win32 compatibility layer will never be perfct, and thus the majority of Windows games will never be playable on Linux, whether a Gaming Edition or not. IMHO, unless someone goes in the opposite direction and finds a way to run Windows' actual Win32 layer on top of Linux, with hardware accelerated drivers and all, it's just throwing dust into the wind to expend effort on getting Windows games to run on Linux.

If you hate Microsoft, pirate their OS for your gaming needs and have the best of all possible worlds--have the most compatible possible gaming machine, while not paying Microsoft anything, while having Linux for your real work. By all means, buy Linux games when and where available, to support gaming on Linux and try to help it become more viable and widespread. But don't deny yourself the world of games that will never play on Linux, even under emulation. You can if you want--but not me.

I played the Xbox... didnt look or feel any different than my PS2.. and GT3 is a better game than gotham racing.

Sony has one helluva head start on the two newcomers... WE'll see where things lie next year....

My bets? Xbox goes the way the Jaguar went. It will die, but at least have better numbers than ATARI was possible of.
nintendo? I hope they can do it, although someone needs to beat the engineer that though not using a standard dvd was a good idea over the head with several SNES machines. what moron in engineering or management thought it was a good idea to not have a feature that everyone else has?

my first notice was the fact that the local stores still have Xboxes on the shelves.. funny, you couldnt get a PS2 for months after release, yet I could liesurely buy an Xbox.... anyone else notice this? or is it region specific?

No DVD in the GameCube allows them to be $100 cheaper than both the PS2 and the Xbox. That sounds like a good first reason for not having it. Secondly, they're marketing it as a GAMES machine, not a home-entertainment centre for your living room. And thirdly, Playstation 2 got off to a dreadful start in Japan because a ton of people bought them just as a cheap DVD player (which was somewhat of a rare thing in Japan at the time). That means they didn't buy games, the companies who created PS2 launch titles lost a fortune (like Namco) and Sony lost money too, because of course they make money from the game sales.

Thats your other reason for no DVD in the GC. And also the reason why most Japanese developers are now happy to create games for all three consoles, instead of putting all their eggs in one basket and getting burnt again (like they did with the PS2, losing them money and killing the Dreamcast).

Cringely wrote an article [pbs.org] back in March on why Nintendo stuck with cartridges for N64, and why they're using a proprietary mini-dvd for the Game Cube.

The answer comes down to how Nintendo ran (and probably still runs) its distribution system in Japan. The system dates from Nintendo's days as a card game company, and in it, the wealth creation was tied to people at various levels in the complex system of middlemen buying more product than they could legitimately use.

From what I gather, a proprietary media allows Nintendo to maintain its grip on the supply chain. By owning the supply chain, Nintendo can charge game publishers for each game produced, rather than each game sold to retail.

No returns were allowed. And since masked ROMs had long manufacturing lead times and assembly caused delays, developers and publishers were encouraged to buy lots of cartridges lest they be stuck without stock if the game became a big hit. For Nintendo, the game was already a hit if an optimistic publisher could be persuaded to buy lots of cartridges. Except for the biggest of blockbuster hit games, it didn't matter to Nintendo's accounting department whether the game was good or not, or whether customers even bought it.

Now, I'm not sure if that logic really translates to mini-dvd manufacturing, but Nintendo has always done it her way...

One thing's for sure, the mini-dvd driver certainly wasn't an engineering decision.

"No DVD in the GameCube allows them to be $100 cheaper than both the PS2 and the Xbox. "

Nice, but completely wrong. No DVD movie ability basically saves them $20 in licensing fees (Which on the Xbox the consumer has to pay anyway by purchasing a special remote). Also, something you might have forgotten. Sony makes money whether you buy DVD movies OR PS2 games.

No DVD in the GameCube allows them to be $100 cheaper than both the PS2 and the Xbox.

More likely the $100 difference is from no hard drive and no Ethernet.

This isn't a bad thing: the XBox hard drive seems to me like it could be the source of all kinds of problems when it a) gets filled up b) gets fragmented c) fails or gets corrupted d) gets used to patch games that were released broken. I couild be wrong, but I'm certainly waiting to see before I buy.

Ethernet would have been cool, but OTOH, I have the Ethernet card for my Dreamcast and have never hooked it up.

tsk tsk, remember Nintendo isn't that much of a newcomer. It has over a decade of fans and players. They also have prior contracts and sequels the can do for a little while longer. Look and Mario, Luigi, Zelda, Pokemon (lord help me) and other popular characters that Nintendo that has as household names.

I'd say the cube and ps2 are on the level, except the ps2 has been out a little longer while nintendo corp has a good history going. After all, the ps2 and dreamcast didn't make the n64 go away or anywhere and vice versa. Sega just couldn't keep up a good fanbase nor release a good set of games. Well, at least not like it did in the old days:)

What I never understood was why nintendo allowed all of their other fantastic characters like metroid and kid icarus from the NES and SNES days on to the N64 and the new game cube. I loved those games and they have so much potential to make a really cool game (or series of games). I know I'd buy a game cube when it comes out here in europe for a chance to play new metroid. Until then it's me and my dreamcast.

although someone needs to beat the engineer that though not using a standard dvd was a good idea over the head with several SNES machines. what moron in engineering or management thought it was a good idea to not have a feature that everyone else has?

It was a management decision. Any engineer(ing team) that could design the GC would want a full DVD player in it. Just wait for the Panasonic GC with full DVD capability, if you dont already have multiple DVD players in your house. They used the miniature size so that the DVD couldnt be duplicated to a standard DVD and still FIT in the GC (that's my guess anyway)

Sorry, the Panasonic is not planned to be released for North America:
"The bad news is that the system is only going to be available in Japan for the time being according to one of the representatives at the show. He commented that it would be too expensive to bring it stateside."

Even if Xbox goes where Jaguar and NeoGeo went, It will have some awesome games to go along with it.

I don't know what is up with "fanboys" and console loyalty, but to me, it is about the fun and the games.

I will buy and Xbox, and i'll get my nephew a GameCube, i have no interestd in Pokeman or Mario, i played that back in the 80's when it was fun for me, kind of burned out on that.

People will buy whatever they want, but it is way to early to forecast the death of anything. People say the DC died a horrible death, but it still chugs along. Most stores have long since wiped out the N64 shelves or have moved on to used games only, but even out here in Amishville they carry a great selection of DC games as well as every new release..

buy what you want, but no one is right. Jaguar has some awesome games. And as far as people missing the bandwagon, thats what it appears to me as.

Yes the Jaguar did. Bought the system for Tempest 2000 and Alien vs Predator. Still play them and they are still good. Wonder why nobody has ported AvsP to newer systems in the form that exists for the Jag? It was a great game.

I checked that one out. It was very similar in concept, but very different in play mechanic. In the Jaguar game, there was a very nice guided discovery element. Exploring the ship and learning where the key elements were was a lot of fun and risky at the same time.

The PC version is more of a guided tour. You are given a path and resources and from there it is just a shooter. Pretty decent one, but still not the same.

PlayStation 2 will still rule at least this Christmas because they finally have the killer app games that really show off the system: Gran Turismo 3 A-Spec, Metal Gear Solid 2, Madden NFL 2002, and coming early next year Final Fantasy X.

Gran Turismo 3 A-Spec is right now the coolest driving game I've ever played, especially if you can get the optional Logitech steering wheel/pedal controller.

I'm hoping that Konami releases a PS2-specific version of Dance Dance Revolution soon.:)

The GOD (Gamecube Optical Disc) was actually partilally chosen by Shigeru Miyamoto (Nintendo's head game designer) and was based on other factors besides the ability to copy. Miyamoto hates load time. That's part of the reason for stcking with cartrige for the n64. The GOD has much less load time than a DVD or a CD because of the reduced mass. The drive doesn't have to move as far compared to a full-size DVD or CD. And space limitations are not a real concern, as the disc hold 1.5 GB. Yes, this is comsiderably less than a DVD (4.7 GB sl/ss) however games will not really need all of that space (unless ithe disc has a lot of media, like FMV or voice) If 1.5 GB isn't enough, the developer can always add another disc.

My bets? Xbox goes the way the Jaguar went. It will die, but at least have better numbers than ATARI was possible of. '

Of the XBox failes (not likely) it will be more of type of failure the Dreamcast had. A big buzz at release and a quick fade with a remaining and steady fanbase.

It isn't even SANE to think the Xbox will fail in any way similar to the Jaguar.

The Jaguar wasn't even truely 64 bit, had a horrid selection of first and third party games, had hardware that was very similar to the already ancient SNES, and had a price-tag in the area getting close to the vastly superior NeoGeo.

No games. Crappy Hardware. No fanbase. High Price. Atari's 64 Bit Gagwire. Do the math.

The XBox may not dominate. If any one of the three dominate, it will probably be the Playstation 2 simply because it's already situated well in the market. But I doubt even the PSY will dominate any more than the XBox will fail.

Me personally, I'm investing more into building up a Gamecube game library, then buying Xbox and PSX/Y titles on a see-them-as-they-come basis. Well, really, I do that with every system, but I already have a larger list of "I-gotta-get-it" titles for the Gamecube -- and none of THOSE are even out yet.

So basically you're interpreting the fact that Microsoft did a better job with manufacturing and distribution to mean that their console is inferior. I think that's really good logic - Sony made less units initially (with many problems leading to recalls, I might add), so b/c it was hard to buy one, it must be better. Right. Go read the Wired article [wired.com] about the mfg of the Xbox to get a better insight as to why there are plenty of units available to those who want them.

I hope they can do it, although someone needs to beat the engineer that though not using a standard dvd was a good idea over the head with several SNES machines. what
moron in engineering or management thought it was a good idea to not have a feature that everyone else has?

First off, Nintendo is very careful to make money off everything they do... so, if Sony sells 100 million PS2s (losing $ on consoles but making it on games), and Nintendo sells 25 million gamecubes (making $ on consoles and games), they both make the same amount of money.

Secondly, (I have to say this because everybody criticizes the gamecube for this) the gamecube is mostly targeted towards little kids, who don't really care that much about whether or not they have a dvd player. They care about Pokemon. Nintendo will battle in the older demographic but are unlikely to dominate except among hardcore fans of their systems and games (like me:) ).

Third, the gamecube is really really tiny and I'm not sure if they could have fit everything in with full size dvd's:)

Finally, since it's $100 cheaper than the other consoles at the moment, you can go out and buy a totally separate dvd player with that money.:)

I can only talk about the small Walmart where I work, but we sold out of the 24 Gamecubes we had in about 2 hours this morning. Four days have gone by since the X-box was released, and we've sold 4 out of 18 we had. We've sold 6 PS2's since the X-box release, the normal PS2 selling rate for a 4 day period here. Customers I talk to say that they just don't trust Microsoft to make anything good.

PCs really took off when there became many different manufacturers. Wouldn't it be great if many manufacturers could make the same gaming console? Had to have the same specs and such, so all games would work, but it would definitly be very interesting never the less.

Actually, this is happening with the GameCube. Panasonic is making a hybrid GameCube system [ign.com] that also functions as a DVD player. I'm sure more will follow, although whether these make it to the US or not, I don't know. But this is evidence that Nintendo is open to the idea you mention.

Not really a good idea. The strength of the PC market is that different companies can try different ways to make "their" vision of a PC better. By way of being cheaper, faster, etc. And the result is that you have a hundred slightly different platforms and are constrained to using high level APIs to interface with the hardware. The big advantage of consoles is that you have a single specific target to aim at. You can tune your application to deal with the specific strengths of the console, you can avoid the specific weaknesses. As a developer you don't want there to be different versions of the same platform. You need to know exactly how your hardware behaves. Sure there are going to be revisions, but they are typically going to involve minor upgrades or just a matter of throwing out the old and bringing in the new.

Not different systems (as far as the software is concerned), but different manufacturers. A well specified API/performace spec would mean all of them can make the same software work, but add different nifty things. Maybe better AA, the possibility to play the games in HDTV resolution and really getting it to work, double as other kinds of devices, built in the TV, toaster, lawnmover, pacemaker. There are tons of stuff they can do without having to run different software.

On the whole, I'd rather have the Mandrake Gaming edition (mentioned previously) than a new console.

This is humping Linux for Linux' sake, but of course, it's FUD. Linux is not a gaming platform - we've seen a plethora of evidence for this. The Linux gaming companies can't turn sustained profits, games get released months (sometimes years) after their other-platform counterparts, and support is sketchy, at best.

Timothy saying he'd rather have M:GE instead of a GameCube would be like me saying I'd rather use my bicycle to travel from LA to Boston instead of taking a plane. Sure they both serve essentially the same function, but one is more practical in an exponentially more obvious way.

If you're going to parade Linux around, at least do so intelligently in markets where it actually has the edge.

Eh, I don't really care about what is or isn't (considered) a "gaming platform" -- the Mandrake release sounds interesting because it would let me play with a computer game that looks sort of interesting (the Sims) without paying for either a new piece of hardware (console) or another OS (some variety of Windows). I've seen screenshots from the Sims, and I know a lot of people are fascinated by it, but I've never played, myself. Since I'm likely to buy a boxed Mandrake 8.1 anyhow, the price difference isn't much, making it much more tempting as an experiment.

Re: "markets where it actually has the edge," I'm not saying that you should want to buy the Mandrake gaming edition, or anything else. I like fireworks, Honda Goldwings, and Korean food, among other things -- if you prefer to spend your money and attention on things I don't like, well... OK, that's your choice to make. Since Linux is for the moment at least my OS of choice, games that run under Linux have the edge in my one-person market.

Maybe one day I'll care enough to buy a game console, but so far and for the most part the actual games leave me cold. Tastes vary, situations are complex, etc.

And really, it was an offhand (but truthful) statement of preference, not a demand that anyone else agree. Chill:)

The truth is, I haven't taken any rides over 20 miles, myself -- so going cross country (in the U.S.) is a bit of a pipedream right now:) If I do it, I would try to stay in a lot of towns across the country, by no means would I try to set any speed records!

On a recumbent bike though, I think this could be a good way to travel the country, especially once there's unmetered medium-bandwidth Internet service through Low-Earth-Orbit satellites. A low-powered laptop, a trickle-charger, enough clothes to get between towns, and some high-calorie food...

As far as the comparison I made being Apples-to-Oranges, it might even be more like horses-to-snowboards. But unless context makes it illegal, immoral, dangerous or fattening, there's nothing wrong with a good Apples-Oranges comparison, IMO. I generally like the texture and flavor of oranges better than apples, but if sliced and baked into a crust, I'd prefer apples:)

Linux is not a gaming platform - we've seen a plethora of evidence for this.

FYI: The developers kit for the PS2 (The 'Tool' box) runs Linux. PS2 home kits now can run Linux. More importantly - most consoles are evolving to a cross-platform development model. You can take a decently programmed PC game and get it to run on an Xbox and GameCube with only a bit of fuss (If you don't need a bunch of storage on the GameCube.)

I didn't buy a nintendo 64. I purchased a playstation after it had been out for 3 years (my Sega CD kept me content until then). Although I have dozens of games, I don't really get around to playing them. I have arrived at the conclusion that I just don't have very much time anymore for the long, complex RPGs that used to eat up my time. Even though playstation 1/2 and X-box games might be more "mature" than N64 and gamecube games, I find myself having more fun with nintendo games in general.

Also, I've had too many troubles with hard drives in the past and don't wish to introduce another one into my life. Are hard drives the most failure-prone component in computer systems?

I went to BestBuy here in Austin [auschron.com] right after it opened today. They had plenty (30-40) available. I thought about buying an extra to sell on eBay, but then I figured I'd just get stuck with it and have to sell at a loss, since Nintendo seems to be able to get these things out the door. I went up to GameSpot yesterday to check out the XBox, and the game I saw (don't know the name, but it was some sort of futuristic Mario Kart) looked like the Playstation 1 games I used to have. And the XBox controller sucked. So that sort of reconfirmed my decision to buy a GameCube (cheaper, Rogue Squadron, Pikimin).

I got three games, a 3rd-pary controller, and a memory card.

Luigi's Mansion - seems like fun, in the spirit of Super Mario 64, but just got it

Super Monkey Ball - haven't unwrapped, but I wanted a 4-person multiplayer game

Star Wars Rogue Squadron - This game has amazing graphic! The gameplay is similar to Rogue Squadron for the N64, but the grafx are much, much better, even in "Hi-res" N64 mode with the video memory pack.

I would say the GameCube is a no-brainer. Oh, and it's pretty easy to find XBox's in Austin, so I'm guessing XBox will flop. Only because I hate buying the "wrong" video game system. (Genesis vs SNES, N64 vs PS1, Dreamcast vs PS2)

The GameCube is almost everything I could ask for in a console; it's purple, and it's a cube. If only it had electicity arcing all over it and said "Warning: Incoming Game" when I turned it on, then it would be THE last word in console systems.

Is it just me, or is timothy getting irritating with his insulting the very content he posts? If it's such awful news, or so pointless, why post it? And if it's worth posting, why put snide remarks in for the "department" and throughout the post?

"By contrast, both Sony and Microsoft are positioning their boxes as the foundation for home entertainment systems. The Xbox has a built-in hard drive and high-speed Internet port, and the PlayStation 2 will soon have both through external adapters... Nintendo wanted to keep the GameCube price low and keep the audience focused on the games, analysts said."

The Gamecube _does_ have add-on components for dial-up and broadband connectivity. I think it's smart to have these features as an add-on for everyone who may/not want a wired box. This has been announced for some time now:

I don't want consoles with operating systems, dvd players, harddisks, web browsers. That's what PC's are for. When I fire up my PS1 or N64, I expect them to load the games quickly, without crashes.

First and foremost, I've not had my XBox crash yet. Also, I don't expect it to crash any time soon, either. But believe what you will.

Consoles have had on-board "operating systems" for a while, now. Especially any console that uses CDs (though the old Sega Master System had a built-in game that would fire up if you turned it on without a cart). These on-board OSes are typically used for playing music CDs and managing memory cards. As far as DVD players go, what do you want instead? More low-capacity CD-ROM's? Some proprietary CD-ROM hack (like Dreamcast)? Or the coming standard of DVD? With the latter, at least you get high capacity (4.5GB per XBox game, for instance) and cheap production (because you can leverage existing DVD presses). Actually playing DVD movies is only optional, as with the XBox (it costs money to get a license, for CSS decoding for instance, and there's no point including that in the box itself unless you're aiming to be a DVD player. so make an addon, let anyone who wants to play DVDs buy that.) A hard disk is a good addition, imho, if only because it lets me save money on memory cards (I don't carry my memory cards to other people's consoles, so I don't care if the storage is local to my machine). Plus, it opens up the door for programming tricks like caching level data on disk rather than streaming it from DVD (no console has enough RAM to cache in RAM), thus decreasing load times and allowing for much larger levels. And finally, web browsers. Well, I'll agree with you there. But then again, if you're going to provide online capabilities for your console (Dreamcasts's built-in modem or XBox's built-in ethernet -- add-on's for PS2 and GC don't count, as no peripheral has ever been bought by more than 10% of a console's owners), you may as well give the users something to do with it until games exist that take advantage.

Where launch times are concerned, I've noticed that my XBox launches games much faster than my Dreamcast or PS1 (mainly because I don't have to sit through the Sony bios splash or the Sega bios splash). All I do is hit the eject button (thus turning on the system and instantly bringing up the menu, after an XBox splash), put in the DVD (in the process of getting the DVD out of the box and putting it in the tray, the XBox splash is done and it's waiting patiently at the menu), and close the drive. The game spins up in a second or two, and then it starts. Some games, like NFL Fever 2002 take the first boot to write some files to the hard disk, but this only takes a minute or so, and is well worth it afterwards -- NFL Fever 2002 only takes a scant few seconds to get to the "Press Start" screen after the first time running it. (and no, you don't have to reboot your XBox after NFL Fever installs files to the disk.) Anyway, comparing to N64 is a red herring, because you're talking about a cartridge system versus CD or DVD-based systems (Dreamcast, PS2, XBox, Gamecube). There's going to be lag time

Absolutely! I'd never get a 3D graphics card for my PC - who wants to play games on a PC? That's what consoles are for! My PC is for installing operating systems & hard disks into, with a bit of web browsing. Oh, and for crashing & loading things slowly.

I think it's a scandal that these things are even offered for PCs. Don't people realise that they're not what PCs are about? Just do web browsing & do it well, I say. Everything else just distracts from a PC's true focus!

I couldn't agree more. Beyond the simple pleasure of hitting GO and playing within 30 seconds, theres the fact that all the NON techie people I know remember the Sega and Atari machines with fondness and stil use them, whereas they found the PC they bought soon started crashing, having problems with speed, and new games wouldn't work.

I think Nintendo have got the market sussed. I've got a DVD player - I dont need another. I'd bet most people are in the same boat - especially in a family setting where Dad wants to watch his work out DVDs and little Jimmy wants to play a game having it all happen in one machine sucks.

Remember - the world doesn't all live alone!

The Nintendo machine seems to be a TV game, rather than a next gen console to most people. This makes it MORE appealing, not less. And the wee plumber is so cute! And Yoshi! dont forget the power of Yoshi!

I hopped in line at my local Wal-Mart at about 9:00 PM. They had 92 systems; I was number 52. Aside from the employee who messed up and started handing out tickets from the end of the roll when he got to me, I am a supremely happy camper and extremely pleased with the GameCube.

A few observations:

The console setup menus look a lot cooler than the PS2 (I've not seen the X-box's yet)

If you've not yet held the controller, just let me warn you that it will be hard to put it down. It is the single-most ergonomically-pleasing controller I've ever held (maybe that is because I have average size hands, but it is way nice).

Rogue Leader just flat out rocks, no two ways about it.

I am totally pleased I bought a 'Cube, now I can't wait for Super Smash Bros. Melee to come out for it.

If people were paying attn to Nintendo, they might have known the systems, as the slashdot title suggests, were on sale a little earlier in some places. Two of my friends got one. One got one off of a voucher, found out they had extra since no one was asking, and told me and another friend. He got one, I'm gonna wait a little while when I can afford it.

I went to Media Play at 7 this morning. They told me that they would have 20 cubes and would open at 8. They opened at 9 and had 32 cubes. They didn't even sell them all at 9. Bought the system, luigi's mansion, and memory card. Going to buy smash bros. and another controller when the time comes.
Basically Luigi's mansion is great, it's very similar to all the 64 games like DK64, and Mario 64. The controller is great, the Z button is the only slight problem, but the L and R buttons make up for this in a big way. All analog buttons should be like that. Overall the cube kicks ass. It's really really small too. Incredibly convenient, powerful, I gotta go play some more of that. And uplink too.

I bought my next console system and portable gaming device yesterday. A Nintendo 64 (+ 2nd controller and game) for A$20 and a Sega Game Gear (+ 3 games) for A$10. I've now got a whole new couple of platforms to find interesting titles for. And heck, down here in Australia the N64 is Nintendo's current offering through to the first half of next year some time. (When I can start hitting the bargain bins.)

Went looking for early Gamecubes on Sat and did not have any luck. Heard a lot about XBox though.

Saw a number of display areas with Xbox turned way up, and PS2 off. Go figure.

Target had them opening day (of course) they handed out numbers so people would know if they were getting one or not. 45 people in line for Gamecube avg. age 20 something sales person told me there were about 8 for Xbox. Could be the neighborhood, but on Sat, there were many Xbox units for sale.

Target was giving away free game seats with your Gamecube purchase. They had the Xbox logo on them.

I have. I personally know 3 mothers who were camped out at ShopKo at 4:30 this morning. One of them (mine) was picking it up for my younger brothers and sisters back home as a Christmas present. If I personally know 3 people that were there before opening, I'm pretty sure that ShopKo's first-come first-serve lot of 30 units was gone 5 minutes after the store opened.

Well, there may be reason for that -- the same reason as for those "malfunctioning" units. In my local EB, the X-Box kiosk was places within a few yards of the register. It got to the point where they couldn't tell who was on line and who was just waiting for their turn on Xbox, so they just turned the thing off. They now refer to it as "black box".

but I haven't heard of anyone sleeping over at a store to be the first to have one!!!

Consider yourself informed; about 30 people (including me) were camped out last night.

Let's not forget that Nintendo has been doing this a while. They're not going to roll over and die, they're going to roll their sleeves up and show the industry a thing [gamespot.com] or two [ign.com].

Remember that Supply/Demand is a ratio with 2 variables. If XBOX is sold out, it doesnt necesarrily mean that the demand was greater. It could mean that the supply was not enough, and from the reports I've heard, they did not make enough XBOX's by a long shot (something like 300,000?). Nintendo, on the other hand, is planning to ship 1.1 million units by the year's end.

As an example: I was in both XBOX and GC overnight lines. The XBOX sold out, with 21 or so people who had camped out. The GC did NOT sell out, but had ~35 people camped out.

When you just make up figures like this it really makes you look rather stupid.

If you really want to make an economic argument for the X-Box, how about factoring in the fact it also plays DVDs?

Of course, gaming shouldn't be about economic arguments anyway; do you want to play games designed by Shiguru Miyamoto? If so - buy a Gamecube. If you don't really care about games but would like a little distraction, get yourself a PS One, or maybe Mandrake Gaming Edition..:)

Hey! This isn't offtopic. This really is a copied and pasted comment from another thread [slashdot.org] (Thanks to the AC above who found this link). I had Deja Vu just reading this comment. This isn't the first time [slashdot.org] ekrout's done this either. Some moderators around here need a little clue-sticking...

I got mine in the mail from ebgames on Friday morning. Been playing it alot -- its a great system.

All three games I got were damn nice. RSII looks very good. Luigi's Mansion is somewhat addicting -- much more addicting than I thought it would be. I'd say more but I'm busy playing. I don't really know what all the fuss is about. These new consoles (xbox and gc) are fairly nice.

I'm Sticking them on eBay soon as they are good and out of them and let the people who MUST have one get one.

No one must have a Gamecube, so don't pretend that you're pursuing a noble cause. Having said that I hope Nintendo absolutely swamps the market will millions, meaning that the most you'll ever get is retail (and it sounds like it will be like that as Nintendo has good production, meaning that I'd much rather pay retail than deal with the hassle of Ebay and some unknown person. I doubt anyone is going to profiteer off the Gamecube, or the Xbox for that matter. It was sweet after Christmas last year seeing hundreds of wankers trying to pawn PS2s at progressively lower prices, eventually taking a pretty heavy loss as the store prices dropped). The fact that scalpers such as yourself run and buy up all the stock just to rape families whose kids want a game to play really pisses me off, and I hope that you are left holding the bag on that.

What? Capitalism IS Slashdot's primary cause. (Re: numerous stories on defeating copyright protection in the name of saving money on CDs.) This post seems quite typical and "approprate" considering the audience.:)

But I am a pretty half-assed capitalist, and I agree with you, this is just wrong. There are probably plenty of mothers or fathers who really wanted to get something thier young children wanted for Christmas and now they can't on the budget they have because of "scalpers."

I don't think it's a Noble cause at all; I'm in it purely for financial gain. I talk of the families who MUST get their kids the new Game system, because the Kid Demands it and will be heart broken if he doesn't. The Parent who is so weak as to say no to their kid who wants the latest and greatest of the year (Disputable, I know, lets not get into an X-Bob Vs; GameCube thing here) and don't have the power to say no. They have so much money that they can buy their kid this new thing for Christmas, well then I would be GLAD to take their money. Maybe buy myself a nice new Radon or GF3. On eBay, I'm gonna put the starting price so I would just break even (That includes the Chinese Buffet I got while waiting till midnight) And let it go from there. The Other trick is that I kept my receipts, and never opened the boxes, so if things for some reason don't go well, I Can take them back and again, break even (Cept for that Chinese Buffet), and just pass this weekend off as a fun campout at Wal-Mart. So really I can't be left "holding the bag" (The 3 bags are hanging, out of harms reach, in my closet btw). And us scalpers will continue to be the early birds and prey off of the late and lame ones. That is how the world works. Sad and Cruel, but true none the less.

More power to you. Camping out seems like a great way to earn $30. And you do make a good point about those brats who need the latest and greatest, whereas your desire to buy a GF3 or Radeon clearly is driven by necessity.
Scalpers are bad.

Well guess what, I work at circuit city and we didn't even sell out of them by the end of the day. Want to really make money? Scalp Gamecube component digital output cables. Gamecube's have been manufactured heavily, they aren't in short supply. Sorry bitch, your sorry shortcut to not having to work for money is out the window.

It was sweet after Christmas last year seeing hundreds of wankers trying to pawn PS2s at progressively lower prices, eventually taking a pretty heavy loss as the store prices dropped). The fact that scalpers such as yourself run and buy up all the stock just to rape families whose kids want a game to play really pisses me off, and I hope that you are left holding the bag on that.

Oh get over yourself. There's a bit of a double standard in that you seem to find it perfectly reasonable that retailers constrict supply of these systems, preventing consumers from (theoretically) eliminating the middle man and getting a better price. Some of them even enforce bundling restrictions. So why are the scalpers evil?

Like it or not, this is capitalism at work. If someone wants to hustle their butt and risk some of their cash in the hopes of pulling down a better price, who are you to criticize? Retailers do the same thing, but we've been numbed to accept it in the name of convenience. Marked up GameCubes are obviously worth it to those who purchase them - it provides a valuable second market for the systems.

Can you really blame someone? There is ONLY upside potential here. Get a good price? Sell and take it to the bank. Can't sell it? Take the store receipt in for a full refund.

Also, you assume that the families that buy these systems from resellers would be the ones to pick the system up from the store, were it not for the greedy bastards. This is absurd. For some families, people like this guy are the only way they'd ever get a system before Christmas. Their time is more valuable than their money. Get off your high horse.

Totally off-topic and I expect to be moderated as such, but please heed my warning:
Do not follow those links. The material is so lame (ph34r my eloquence) that I actually felt any joviality in my soul being absorbed.

I imagine the author of this site as a fragile old man, shaking and close to a nervous breakdown, desperately scraping for comedy material whilst sobbing at his own humourless ineptitude.

It's kind of weird. The end of the first weekend it went on sale the GameCube was supposed to sell out. I went to a major retailer in Ikebukuro late Sunday evening and there was huge stack of the machines still available. Even weirder, only a few people were even bothering to look. Go figure. GameBoy Advance was hugely popular, however.

Hey! What is going on with the oodles of copycat [slashdot.org] posts all of a sudden? You guys are practicing plagarism, and I hope you get modded into oblivion. Just because the original post [slashdot.org] was good doesn't mean you should copy-and-paste it!