Vampire load surprise - garage door openers - Home Energy Pros2017-08-18T05:14:11Zhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/vampire-load-suprise-garage-door-openers?commentId=6069565%3AComment%3A97462&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=no15W * 8760hr/year - 131,400 w…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-12-16:6069565:Comment:1453042013-12-16T03:44:15.158ZDennis Heidnerhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisHeidner
<p>15W * 8760hr/year - 131,400 watt hours</p>
<p></p>
<p>131,400Wh/1000W/yr = 131.4 kWh/year</p>
<p></p>
<p>131.4kWh/yr * $0.12/kWh (average US electric price) = $15.76</p>
<p></p>
<p>$15.76 * 10 years = $157.60</p>
<p></p>
<p>No attempt to do calculation of NPV or inflation. No attempt to use time of use pricing - many still have flat rates, the duty cycle of the garage opener is short enough that it would be difficult to model the short increase in the cost above using the average US…</p>
<p>15W * 8760hr/year - 131,400 watt hours</p>
<p></p>
<p>131,400Wh/1000W/yr = 131.4 kWh/year</p>
<p></p>
<p>131.4kWh/yr * $0.12/kWh (average US electric price) = $15.76</p>
<p></p>
<p>$15.76 * 10 years = $157.60</p>
<p></p>
<p>No attempt to do calculation of NPV or inflation. No attempt to use time of use pricing - many still have flat rates, the duty cycle of the garage opener is short enough that it would be difficult to model the short increase in the cost above using the average US electric rate.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Garage openers can be found for as low as $115.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I will not dispute that it would be nice to pressure manufacturers to include the standby energy use in their specs... or have an energystar rating... however energystar ratings for devices such as ceiling fans have seen significant resistance by some manufacturers, political groups and a few home owners. </p>
<p></p>
<p>The reason we don't see them rated or published ... is purely because most of the population doesn't care. That may change with California doing deep dives in nearly all appliances... and the EPA / DOE are both looking at the misc electrical loads more closely.</p> I disagree - do the math:
If…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-12-16:6069565:Comment:1451382013-12-16T03:06:04.633ZCurt Kinderhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/CurtKinder
<p>I disagree - do the math:</p>
<p>If a cheapie costs $130 but burns 15 Watts 24/7, the 10 year cost of ownership is almost $300, depending on electric rates.</p>
<p>That covers the cost of the more expensive model, not to mention the negative message sent to both the manufacturer of the cheapie (keep on trucking) and the better model (sorry, no one wants your higher quality product)</p>
<p>I disagree - do the math:</p>
<p>If a cheapie costs $130 but burns 15 Watts 24/7, the 10 year cost of ownership is almost $300, depending on electric rates.</p>
<p>That covers the cost of the more expensive model, not to mention the negative message sent to both the manufacturer of the cheapie (keep on trucking) and the better model (sorry, no one wants your higher quality product)</p> Garage door openers sell for…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-12-16:6069565:Comment:1452372013-12-16T02:22:11.169ZDennis Heidnerhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisHeidner
<p>Garage door openers sell for as low as $130. Hydraulics can't beat that cost, not with safety and other issues. When the product sells for $130, it means the retailer is probably only paying $90 for it... and the cost to produce the product is well under $40. That would take a lot of volume production and clever design to get a hydraulic system down that low in price.</p>
<p>For a $130 price tag, I can absorb a lot of vampire load cost over the years and still beat the cost of a one…</p>
<p>Garage door openers sell for as low as $130. Hydraulics can't beat that cost, not with safety and other issues. When the product sells for $130, it means the retailer is probably only paying $90 for it... and the cost to produce the product is well under $40. That would take a lot of volume production and clever design to get a hydraulic system down that low in price.</p>
<p>For a $130 price tag, I can absorb a lot of vampire load cost over the years and still beat the cost of a one of a kind or small market system that sells for $250 or $300 each.</p> It would not meet building co…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-12-16:6069565:Comment:1450522013-12-16T02:13:26.927ZDennis Heidnerhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisHeidner
<p>It would not meet building codes and it could be safety hazard.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Too many small kids (and pets) were suffocated by garage doors prior to the 80's. They must detect and re-open if they do not close completely. Using a switch to turn it off - means that the door could come done on a small child - and be turned off before it has a chance to re-open.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Yup, the parents should check -- but that argument is weak - and unfortunately lots of small kids are run over in…</p>
<p>It would not meet building codes and it could be safety hazard.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Too many small kids (and pets) were suffocated by garage doors prior to the 80's. They must detect and re-open if they do not close completely. Using a switch to turn it off - means that the door could come done on a small child - and be turned off before it has a chance to re-open.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Yup, the parents should check -- but that argument is weak - and unfortunately lots of small kids are run over in cars because they are easy to miss. No one wants that coming back to haunt them... if you make the change yourself - not a problem... but if you make it on someone else's house - you would assume the liability if it were ever to happen... three way switch seem simple until the implications are included.</p>
<p></p>
<p>For all the cost to modify or fix the problem --- it really probably is just easier to add it on a watch list, look for vendors that make efficient models -- and when a opener fails - replace it at that time. Payback for other ideas - unless you are able to do them yourself and/or assume the risk are generally too long...</p> OK, this is my last one. Ther…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-12-15:6069565:Comment:1451332013-12-15T17:20:50.564Zpeter changhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/peterchang
OK, this is my last one. There is no free lunch. You can't fix technology with more technology. We can neither create nor destroy energy or matter. Really? Solar panels for you garage door openers? Hydraulics? Sure, because hydraulics are so cost effective and maintenance free. Properly design, build and put into production a garage door opener that solves these problems so we can purchase them at a competitive price and toss all our old ones into the landfill, please.
OK, this is my last one. There is no free lunch. You can't fix technology with more technology. We can neither create nor destroy energy or matter. Really? Solar panels for you garage door openers? Hydraulics? Sure, because hydraulics are so cost effective and maintenance free. Properly design, build and put into production a garage door opener that solves these problems so we can purchase them at a competitive price and toss all our old ones into the landfill, please. Energy tracking and reporting…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-12-15:6069565:Comment:1451312013-12-15T16:12:50.171Ztedkiddhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/tedkidd
<p>Energy tracking and reporting transparency will be the "Asian manufacturers" of the EE movement. When people are able to readily see annual operating cost, product manufacturers will be rewarded for more efficiency at slightly higher cost. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Right now it's simply competitive disadvantage. The consumer see higher upfront price and doesn't buy...</p>
<p>Energy tracking and reporting transparency will be the "Asian manufacturers" of the EE movement. When people are able to readily see annual operating cost, product manufacturers will be rewarded for more efficiency at slightly higher cost. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Right now it's simply competitive disadvantage. The consumer see higher upfront price and doesn't buy...</p> Nah - I no longer buy the con…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-12-15:6069565:Comment:1453022013-12-15T15:54:42.319ZCurt Kinderhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/CurtKinder
<p>Nah - I no longer buy the convenience vs vampire argument...not with today's high efficiency switching power supplies and other power electronics.</p>
<p>Energy hogging phantoms happen via a combination of lack of awareness and oversight and corporations relentlessly pursuing the quarterly bottom line at the long term expense of their unknowing clients. Products that slide beneath regulatory and public information radar get away with crappy, low first cost designs. These garage door openers…</p>
<p>Nah - I no longer buy the convenience vs vampire argument...not with today's high efficiency switching power supplies and other power electronics.</p>
<p>Energy hogging phantoms happen via a combination of lack of awareness and oversight and corporations relentlessly pursuing the quarterly bottom line at the long term expense of their unknowing clients. Products that slide beneath regulatory and public information radar get away with crappy, low first cost designs. These garage door openers are a classic example.</p>
<p>Sometimes an evil monopoly or oligarchy is involved - look at how piggy many settop cable boxes are! Monopolistic cable companies resist spending the extra buck or two to do the right thing.</p>
<p>Back in the day, automobile manufacturers insisted that the most basic regulations, such as seat belts and safety glass would force them into bankruptcy, never mind fuel economy mandates. Then Asian manufacturers ate their lunch, and they changed their tune.</p> Wow, I'm impressed that this…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-12-15:6069565:Comment:1452342013-12-15T15:38:25.278Zpeter changhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/peterchang
Wow, I'm impressed that this one is still going. I've been thinking about it some more. As an electrician I have tried to boil it down a bit. Almost without fail, vampire loads are a concession to convenience. Being able to simply push a button and have some appliance begin working relatively promptly is something we have come to expect. I could install a relatively simple 3-way switch setup for my garage door opener power that would entirely eliminate it's "at idle" consumption but would it…
Wow, I'm impressed that this one is still going. I've been thinking about it some more. As an electrician I have tried to boil it down a bit. Almost without fail, vampire loads are a concession to convenience. Being able to simply push a button and have some appliance begin working relatively promptly is something we have come to expect. I could install a relatively simple 3-way switch setup for my garage door opener power that would entirely eliminate it's "at idle" consumption but would it lose codes or programming? Does my wife really want to get out of her car in a rain storm to flick a switch and push a button? Personally, I would be willing to get out of my car, unlock the garage door with a key, and manually lift it open, but my garage door doesn't even have a handle. Maybe I could invent that! I appreciate that analysis...…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-12-15:6069565:Comment:1449992013-12-15T12:29:18.661ZCurt Kinderhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/CurtKinder
<p>I appreciate that analysis...sounds like a lot of work!</p>
<p>I appreciate that analysis...sounds like a lot of work!</p> If you are able to get schema…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2013-12-15:6069565:Comment:1451252013-12-15T05:40:05.414ZDennis Heidnerhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/DennisHeidner
<p>If you are able to get schematics from vendor.... and have the skills... you could split the receiver and motor into two different circuits... leave the bulky transformer for the motor. Possibly make some changes so when ever the door is "open" even partially - the line voltage to that bulky transformer is always there... power the receiver separately... use an ELK timer such that when receiver is triggered..line connection to the transformer is enabled for ten minutes. After which it…</p>
<p>If you are able to get schematics from vendor.... and have the skills... you could split the receiver and motor into two different circuits... leave the bulky transformer for the motor. Possibly make some changes so when ever the door is "open" even partially - the line voltage to that bulky transformer is always there... power the receiver separately... use an ELK timer such that when receiver is triggered..line connection to the transformer is enabled for ten minutes. After which it disconnects - unless it is "partially open"</p>
<p></p>
<p>That would address safety problems ... and probably let you drop the vampire loads to under a 1W when idle....</p>
<p></p>
<p>Elk time delay relay... note -- these only handle smaller loads - the bulky transformer can not be directly connected to one of these relays. But there are other time delay relays that might also work (non Elk brand).</p>
<p></p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-960-delay-timer-module">http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-960-delay-timer-module</a></p>