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Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

I reckon Wizard gains the most from Lichdom out of the 3. For one thing, improving from d4+Con to d12 is certainly a better deal than d8+Con to d12. In fact with a Con bonus of +2 or higher, the Cleric/Druid ends up LOSING HP on average instead.

Another aspect is immunities. Cleric and Druid have a wide plethora of immunity granting spells. The liches undead immunities do not benefit them as much as it benefits the Wizard (who otherwise has a relatively harder time getting immunity to ability damage/drain, energy drain and death effects).

Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

Wellllll You could always go cleric and wizard. Mystich theurge it up and become a lich.

You're already losing 3 caster levels for being a Lich IF Buy back is in play... Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot and then reload...

Originally Posted by Psyren

Clerics are always scariest to me, simply because being a cleric implies that he has backup. Any deity whose dogma is okay with lichdom to begin with is either a bastard or pretty liberal - either way means he'll likely grant the kind of miracles that would screw over the lich's opponents.

Not many god's actually allow their Clerics to take on Lichdom as an option... God's are cowards like that Vecna knows where your Phylactery is at all times since you hide that thing like a 17 year old high school girl's diary (long story) and Orcus (depending on the rules in play) knows where your Phylactery is as well and again can simply curb stomp you whenever he wants (unless of course you're playing him as he is portrayed in the FC:I i.e. as crap)

In a 20 level limit world the Lich is at most going to be 17th level so the Sorcerer is weakened by a lack of access to 9th level spells leaving the Druid, Wizard and Cleric. The Druid loses access to Wild Shape shenanigans unless they take Tainted Druid, but if not they are weakened by this leaving the Cleric and the Wizard. The Cleric can be completely dicked out by his/her God (unless of course their God is totally awesome and lets Lichdom fly). Needless to say becoming a Lich is clearly an evil act so the Cleric might have to atone... but can't because you "have" to feel bad about doing it...

Consistently the Wizard is superior to the Druid, Sorcerer and Cleric due to the fact he doesn't have to bend over backwards to become a Lich

...This is of course my perspective on things so eh... take it or leave it If the Cleric can be good aligned and be a Good Lich go for it. Immunity to Turning and a +2 bonus to turning is pretty neat

Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

If archivist was one of the options the OP asked us to pick from, I'd've picked him hands down.

All the versatility of the wizard backed by the religion of the cleric. *shudder*

Exactly. And with a dip in clericyou can get rebuke as well.

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Fresh and exciting doesn't exist in a game that's almost old enough to drive. Which is why it's extra fun every time someone comes in to say that no, fighters are totally a real character class, because you all missed that one thing or that other one thing and once I saw a fighter beat up a squirrel.

Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

Originally Posted by Vaern

Where does it say that a druid loses access to Wild Shape for being a lich?

Small error on my part while checking the Alternate form rules out.

The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

which made me think "Neat, the Druid Lich, while in Wild shape has no constitution score", but made me wonder "Would it be undead? Or would it be a special type of Animal?"

Either way. The Wizard will emerge victorious if it is played at it's highest potential (God forbid the Wizard decides to Plane Shift and then Astral Project. Whatever shall we do?).

Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

I was assuming that you were just looking at the actual PHB instead of the SRD. It says that Wild Shape functions as the polymorph spell, which requires a willing living target to work. An errata was released a while back, though, that changed the description to reference the alternate form ability rather than the polymorph spell.
Also, the Lich entry specifically says that they are able to use polymorph effects on themselves, despite being immune to polymorph.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about what kind of lich is scariest, not which one is most powerful.

An average party expects a lich to be a wizard or a cleric. They're expecting the lich to be expecting them, and to have spells prepared just to deal with them. They're going to be no more afraid of the lich when they finally meet him than they were when they first set out to destroy him.

What they're not expecting is the lich wild shaping into a dire bear or something and mauling their faces off. That will probably get you a bigger "OH $#!&" reaction than a lich casting any spell, especially once they are reminded the hard way that liches have a touch attack which can permanently paralyze its target (which most liches I've seen have never made use of).

Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

Originally Posted by Vaern

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about what kind of lich is scariest, not which one is most powerful.

An average party expects a lich to be a wizard or a cleric. They're expecting the lich to be expecting them, and to have spells prepared just to deal with them. They're going to be no more afraid of the lich when they finally meet him than they were when they first set out to destroy him.

What they're not expecting is the lich wild shaping into a dire bear or something and mauling their faces off. That will probably get you a bigger "OH $#!&" reaction than a lich casting any spell, especially once they are reminded the hard way that liches have a touch attack which can permanently paralyze its target (which most liches I've seen have never made use of).

If it's based on "Scariest" and not who can blow whom out the water fastest Shneeky most definitely got it nixed in the bottom a little while back

Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

It actually isn't, but not for the reason you think.

First off, they start off with a Fear aura at level 5, but it kinda sucks. Then you tack onto that the spell Aura of Terror (using one of several loopholes to Persist it, either NaenHoon or Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician to qualify spell as divine). Now tack on Dread Witch to bypass fear immunity, and boost the fear level up yet another notch, and you've got Panicked. Dreadful Wrath is unnecessary.

Congratulations, you've beaten Takahashi at his own game. Without needing to expend any actions in combat to do it. As a class feature and a spell obtained from another class feature. And can still cast 9th level spells and have a swarm of disposable minions.

Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

Wizard for Uttercold Assault Necromancer. Try a wall of fire with Lord of the Uttercold applied and suddenly your necromantic army is healing quite a lot of damage each round they're in the wall (due to you being a skeleton and using skeletons) while enemies that come too close are hurt.

Booyah!

Originally Posted by GPuzzle

And I do agree that the right answer to the magic/mundane problem is to make everyone badass.

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

If you're of a philosophical bent, the powergamer is a great example of Heidegger's modern technological man, who treats a game's mechanics as a standing reserve of undifferentiated resources that are to be used for his goals.

Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

Originally Posted by Endarire

Wizard for Uttercold Assault Necromancer. Try a wall of fire with Lord of the Uttercold applied and suddenly your necromantic army is healing quite a lot of damage each round they're in the wall (due to you being a skeleton and using skeletons) while enemies that come too close are hurt.

Booyah!

Can't druids learn that trick as well? Also archivists? Also Clerics with the fire domain?

Last edited by LTwerewolf; 2012-11-17 at 08:50 AM.

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Fresh and exciting doesn't exist in a game that's almost old enough to drive. Which is why it's extra fun every time someone comes in to say that no, fighters are totally a real character class, because you all missed that one thing or that other one thing and once I saw a fighter beat up a squirrel.

Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

Originally Posted by Vaern

And sorcerers. Don't forget sorcerers.

But they're the red-headed stepchild of d&d.

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Fresh and exciting doesn't exist in a game that's almost old enough to drive. Which is why it's extra fun every time someone comes in to say that no, fighters are totally a real character class, because you all missed that one thing or that other one thing and once I saw a fighter beat up a squirrel.

Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

Originally Posted by Vaern

I was assuming that you were just looking at the actual PHB instead of the SRD. It says that Wild Shape functions as the polymorph spell, which requires a willing living target to work. An errata was released a while back, though, that changed the description to reference the alternate form ability rather than the polymorph spell.
Also, the Lich entry specifically says that they are able to use polymorph effects on themselves, despite being immune to polymorph.

What they're not expecting is the lich wild shaping into a dire bear or something and mauling their faces off. That will probably get you a bigger "OH $#!&" reaction than a lich casting any spell, especially once they are reminded the hard way that liches have a touch attack which can permanently paralyze its target (which most liches I've seen have never made use of).

This is precisely what I do. (Using the good leich variant from Libris Mortis of course: if you're not using that then you've got to be evil of course. One time my partner hit me with a Deep One invasion of my home island. I had a few NPC archers with me but nothing much beyond me and my animal companion. (he is a dire snake/king cobra awakened and entered into leichdom after taking sufficient levels of cleric) I was able to respond by wild shaping into a giant octopus (which being undead could exist just fine out of water), casting wind walk on myself, and flying at a speed of 300 feet (poor maneuverability) with 8 reaching tentacle paralysis attacks- a great way to quickly dispatch lots of mid-level mooks. It was terrifying- imagine a 15 foot octopus zooming over an attempted Normandy landing, paralyzing all it touches, and having a fear aura to boot. Meanwhile my grossly rules-abused animal companion was grappling all who made their save and paralyzing many more- his paralysis attack has actually killed us two shoggoths from CoC 3.0 rules too-. but yeah, airborne octopus at 300fpr, 8 paralysis attacks at 15 foot reach.

Last edited by Waldmarschallin; 2015-04-04 at 04:17 PM.
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Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

Wild Shape was changed in the official errata, the most current PHB version matches the SRD version.

Regarding the original question, I'd say Cleric, given the most ideal build. They have (Greater) Anyspell for DMM: Persistent Wizard buffs, and can use Pearls of Power to use (Greater) Anyspell multiple times/day for multiple buffs. They have Miracle to emulate spells from any list in the game, along with baseline powerful spells. For the most powerful PC and the most challenging monster, my money is on Cleric for this.

He can have all the spells a Wizard could and then some, including Positive Energy Protection (immune to turning and positive energy damage), DMM: Persistent Holy Star multiple times, DMM: Persistent Stormrage plus Control Weather, Greater Rod of Chain Spell with (DMM: Irresistible) Destruction which doesn't have a decreased DC on secondary targets, etc. Additionally, he has options like Initiate of Mystra (worshipers of the old LN Mystra are still recognized), and if strong enough you can hide your phylactery on your deity's well guarded home plane. Plus you don't need to keep a spare spellbook with your phylactery.