CBC NewsBurning objects seen in photo taken of the inside of an incinerator seized from accused killer Dellen Millard look like human bones, according to an expert in bones and burned remains who testified today at the Laura Babcock murder trial in Toronto.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 2:41:52 PM

We're still in legal arguments at the moment.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:09:45 PM

The jury is now coming in. We're getting underway.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:24:09 PM

Millard is starting his cross-examination of Dr. Rogers.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:26:33 PM

Millard asks her if she's seen the incinerator and examined it in person. Rogers says yes. "You've actually been inside of it, haven't you?" he asks. She says yes.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:27:33 PM

Rogers says she climbed in through a hatch at the top of the machine to examine it.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:28:07 PM

We're now seeing a photo of Rogers standing inside the eliminator, wearing a white protective suit.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:28:54 PM

Millard is now asking about "anatomical markers on bones." She responds with "what would you like to know?"

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:29:53 PM

She says they are markers that can be used to determine the species of a bone.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:30:30 PM

Now we're seeing the photo of the alleged bones burning in the incinerator. "The interior looks similar from when you were inside the machine?" Millard asks. Correct, she answers.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:31:44 PM

Millard says there were some difficulties with using this image to make determinations. She says "possibly," but asks what he means specifically.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:32:24 PM

Millard now asking what "features" (basically identifying markers) Rogers used to make her determination that the objects in the photo appeared to be human bones.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:34:59 PM

We're now seeing the photo Rogers showed last week, comparing a human arm bone with a deer bone.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:35:51 PM

It's a human and deer humerus.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:36:11 PM

"Something that strikes me ... this seems to be a very different orientation between the long bone and that distal notch," Millard says, looking at the photo of the incinerator. Rogers says it depends on how you look at the image.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:37:36 PM

"What I'm trying to get at is the orientation of the notch, compared to the orientation of the actual long bone. Do you understand what I'm asking?" Millard says. Rogers says she thinks she understands what he's asking, but can't really see it.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:38:43 PM

Rogers now highlighting where some of the indentations on the alleged bones in the photo are. She used these photos to make her determination that these were human bones.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:41:30 PM

Rogers says the photo appears to be not a single bone, but a bone with some things on top of it, inside the incinerator.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:42:12 PM

"What basis do you have to say that these are two different objects?" Millard asks. Rogers says it appears there's something on top, but its difficult to tell because of the resolution of the photo.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:43:49 PM

Millard now asking about her "scientific method" for looking through this photo. She says there are many methods, depending on the science. "In this kind of situation, you would want to test for a hypothesis and the alternative."

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:46:31 PM

Millard asks if she ever tested to see if this was actually just one object in the incinerator. Rogers says she didn't hypothesize that. "If it were a single object, that would change the nature of your investigation?" Millard asks. Rogers says yes.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:47:55 PM

Millard asks if it would have been better for her to see the bone in person. Rogers says it's quite common to work from a photograph.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:48:24 PM

"The best case scenario would be for you to have the bone in front of you?" Millard asks. "Ideally, yes," Rogers says.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:49:05 PM

Millard now asking Rogers about when she's taking pictures for identification. She says she'd make sure there was a good resolution, the image was sharp, and would include a ruler for scale. "This photograph doesn't have any of that, does it?" Millard asks. "It does not," Rogers says. "It's a very poor photograph to do an identification on, isn't it? Millard asks. Rogers agrees.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:50:45 PM

Millard now asking about how she took measurements from this photo. Rogers now showing a picture of a grid overlay on the photo that she used for scale.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:52:10 PM

Millard asks her how she used the grid to make measurements. Rogers says each square in the grid is two inches, and she used them to figure out the approximate size of each bone.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:53:00 PM

"Would you care to say then that you eyeballed this in the case of the blue grid?" Millard asks. "Yes, and used a ruler," Rogers asks. Millard asks what degree of error is involved there. "That would be difficult to assess," Rogers says.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:54:41 PM

Millard asks what degree of error is involved in the grid itself. Rogers says it may be off by half an inch one way or another.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:55:34 PM

Rogers says the grid was created by Toronto police, and they told her that the variation level was plus or minus half an inch.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:57:06 PM

Millard now asking about the two bones that Rogers used as reference for human and deer bones. We saw those last week.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:58:08 PM

She's answer questions about the average range of size for human and deer bones.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 3:59:37 PM

"One of the problems we face here is when you start combining variations of the grid ... with the averages of humans and the averages of deer ... all these measurements, potentially, could end up on the same number?" Millard says. Rogers says she was concerned about the issue of "compound error" herself.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 4:02:09 PM

"There are concerns with potential error that I tried to address," Rogers says.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 4:02:42 PM

"You can tell us that this doesn't appear to be fish bones?" Millard asks. "I can tell you that, yes," Rogers says.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 4:04:08 PM

"What other possible species did you test the alternatives for?" Millard asks. Rogers says she only compared two, human and deer. "I wasn't given any reason to compare any others."

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 4:04:55 PM

Millard now asking about how burning affects human bones.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 4:05:23 PM

Rogers says those bones can crack, twist or warp when burned. Millard asks if that could "change the dimensions of the bones." Rogers says yes.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 4:06:10 PM

Millard now back to questioning Rogers about her "methodology."

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 4:07:21 PM

"There's quite a few species out there that share characteristics with human bones?" Millard asks. "Um no ... humans are fairly distinctive," Rogers says, because we walk upright.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 4:08:51 PM

Millard now asking if the "tubes" seen inside the incinerator were on a "flat plane." Rogers says it's possible, but she's not sure. Millard now saying the grid overlay on the photo is set up as a flat plane.

by Adam Carter11/14/2017 4:10:43 PM

"Essentially you're telling us that you can't for certain identify what species these bones came from." Millard says. "Correct," Rogers answers.