PREGAME NOTES: Bill Hall arrives, the Giants’ outlook at second base, and a whole lot of eye black on the Nuschler face

First off: There’s no substantive update yet on Freddy Sanchez’s dislocated shoulder this morning. He’s having his MRI exam this afternoon, and that’s when the Giants will know the extent of labrum and ligament damage. But all indications are that Sanchez will be out for an extended period. He’s officially on the disabled list.

Once I learn something new, I will pass it along.

In addition to a throng of old players here for the Giants Legends game, the club has a new guy today. It’s Bill Hall, who received a phone call at 9:30 p.m. last night and found himself reserving a flight from Phoenix a few minutes later.

Giants GM Brian Sabean started making phone calls immediately after Sanchez’s injury during last night’s game. He quickly made contact with Hall’s agent, and even before the game ended, Sabean had gotten word to Manager Bruce Bochy that the player was available. Bochy talked to Hall after the game and everything was put in motion.

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Hall is available off the bench today. Bochy didn’t want to throw him out there immediately because there’s no BP on the field (because of the Legends Game) and he’d like to let him get settled and accustomed to AT&T Park. Good chance he starts tomorrow.

The Houston Astros released Hall last week; he had two home runs and 13 RBIs – the exact numbers that Pat Burrell compiled with the Tampa Bay Rays last year when they cut him loose. Obviously, the Giants would be thrilled if this turns into another “lightning in a bottle” signing.

“It’s a team that had a lot of guys from different organizations, guys maybe at some point they thought their careers were close to being over, and they rejuvenated themselves here,” Hall said. “That’s something I look forward to hopefully happening to me.”

Hall had a few nibbles but acknowledged he was getting a little nervous when a week had gone by after his June 3 release and he still didn’t have a major league job.

“I’m 31,” he said. “Hopefully I’ve still got a lot of baseball to play. Things didn’t go as planned in Houston. It wasn’t going to be a good lasting relationship, so we got a divorce. But last year I played well for Boston and your skills don’t diminish overnight. So I’m not worried about that.

“The last week I worked on some things with my swing. I can play defense. Put me anywhere and I can help the team win. Hopefully I’ll swing the bat a little bit, but pitching and defense are the main things. Help these pitchers out as much as possible. That’s the key to us winning.”

Hall, who hails from Tupelo, Miss., was hitting .224 with a .272 OBP and .340 slugging percentage in 46 games for Houston. A year earlier, he hit 18 homers and had a .247/.316/.456 line in 344 at-bats for the Red Sox. So basically, he’s got plenty of pop but has been a subpar on-base guy in each of the last four seasons. His career high for homers was 35, in 2006 with the Brewers.

Hall works out with Burrell and Cody Ross at API in Arizona over the winter, and by all accounts, he’s an upbeat guy and a good teammate. He can play all over the infield and outfield, and said he’s excited to join a first-place team and a clubhouse that includes a few familiar faces.

Hall is a right-handed hitter. Manny Burriss is a switch-hitter. So Bochy could form a platoon at second base. Mike Fontenot, a lefty hitter, will be thrown into the mix soon enough, although as reported last night, Fontenot came out of his rehab game for Fresno after four innings because his groin remained tight.

How will Bochy plan to divvy up playing time at second base?

“I’ll try to get a feel the next couple days,” he said. “I’ll give Billy some time to take ground balls on the field and take batting practice here. Manny (Burriss) will get his time, I think he’s looking forward to getting some playing time out there. And (Mike) Fontenot, when he comes back, I’ll try to match it up the best way we can.”

—
The Giants signed Joe Panik, their first-round draft pick. He’s leaving for Arizona tomorrow and will join Salem-Keizer in the Northwest League soon. I talked to him briefly in the dugout and he’s ecstatic to begin his pro career. I have to believe his willingness to sign quickly, and for what’s expected to be near the slot value of $1.1 million were attributes that influenced the decision to pick him.

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—
Bochy is about to go watch the Giants Legends game, and no, he’s not scouting the players — although he did joke that there’s a reason Jeff Kent is at the ballpark today.

Will Clark is fully smeared with eye black, by the way.

Andrew Baggarly

Andrew Baggarly has witnessed and documented the most eventful era in San Francisco Giants baseball history, having covered the team since 2004 for th​ree major media outlets including the San Jose Mercury News and the Oakland Tribune​. This will be his 20th season as a baseball writer.
​Baggarly is the author of the bestselling book, A Band of Misfits: Tales of the 2010 San Francisco Giants. A second title, Giant Splash, is due to be published by Triumph Books in April 2015.
Baggarly’s other notable life accomplishments include running as the Bratwurst in the Milwaukee Sausage Race and becoming a three-time Jeopardy! champion.

they really signed panik at slot? that is the reason they picked him in the first

so eff all those scouts

Atlas

Welcome to SF Bill Hall! Wishing you the best in terms of rejuvenating your career, this is a great spot to do it and the team could definitely use any help! I have a feeling you’re gonna like it here.

TheCity

As I said in the last thread – The Giants sprung a hole in the raft, and Sabean looked over the farm system and the wire and obtained the best patch available.

Don’t expect miracles and don’t demonize Sabean for not doing enough. He made a quick move when he needed to. You can’t field your roster with no backup at 2nd and expect to get away with it.

This buys them some time – probably cheaply too. In the coming weeks, Sabean may have to look at longer term solutions depending on how things shake out.

Hall has to be thrilled that he stumbled into this!

Opguy

I say “Welcome, Bill Hall!”…and may lightning strike in a bottle, yet again.

Stats and logic don’t have much to do with last year’s or this year’s success, so, here’s hopin’!

http://www.toobeautiful.org Mark Pritchard

Before we get all excited about the comparisons of Bill Hall to Pat Burrell, let’s not forget the more disastrous acquisition last year: José Guillén.

Yeah, now let’s all forget him again.

mitchvman

Tito Fuentes looked like Tejada out there today!

maltsanddogs

I think Hall will be hungry…. This is perfect for 300 thousands… The Astros pick up the rest of the tab…from what I read… Hall will be good

Atlas

@malts

That’s what I’m thinking too… Good deal/opportunity for the organization and a free agent.

Dodgers Cards Reds Rangers Yankees etc. etc have all been bashed by injuries early and often this year too. There is only so much one can do to prepare for that. This team is amazing in its ability to defy the odds day in and night out.

avwh

Welcome, Bill Hall! Maybe he’ll perk up his offense now that he’s joining a contender and 1st-place team.

Ugh – Brennaman & Karros on Fox again today. I may have to live with the video delay and mute the TV for KNBR’s radio broadcast.

Wisdom Crow

This signing confirms what I was thinking last night: Manny Burris can no longer be considered a major leagued. He is terrible.

Momsaab

Welcome to San Francisco; and we hope that they “Magic” inside the park touches you, too!

Dawg

Forget second base, we need a catcher in a bad way. Whiteside skill behind the plate is turrible! I cant believe they called that one on Timmy

mitchvman

Timmy doesn’t trust Eli! Just like on monday. Afraid to throw the ball in the dirt?

hilarie

How the hell can Bochy keep starting Rowand vs. RHP? It’s about 20,000,000 times stupider than continuing to start Tejada at all, which itself is 80,000,000,000 times stupider than batting Tejada second, which is a double gazillion times stupider than batting Huff third, which used to be the second dumbest lineup decision in the history of mankind, behind batting Rowand leadoff.

The Fox broadcasters are just as stupid as starting Rowand vs. RHP.

I feel better now. But not much better.

avwh

Eli doesn’t look good blocking Timmy’s stuff in the dirt again.

Hanigan is a scrappy little hitter; wonder what it’d take to get him?

JD4SF

Sure hope Freddy’s injury is minor and he isn’t out long. My mental count totals something like 12 injuries this year … yet the Giants keep adjusting and moving forward.

Here’s hoping Bill Hall is a positive addition and brings some spark with him!

mitchvman

Horrible play by Huff!

Went back on the ball and got the bad hop instead of charging the ball stepping on the bag and throwing home!

Then Whiteside cannot CATCH! Which is half of Lincecum’s problem. He is afraid to throw to Eli.

bazoo

wow, we’re getting rolled….

john25

i cant watch whiteside behind the dish anymore, its pathetic

avwh

Whiteside is atrocious behind the plate.

Can the Giants score more than 3 runs today? They’ll have to, to win.

RG

For a no-hit catcher, Whiteside sure sucks behind the plate. It’s almost as if he forgot how to play. He’s got “Steve Sax disease” when it comes to stopping pitches from going through, not to mention how awful he is at throwing out runners…

john25

i think its even harder to watch whiteside with a bat in his hands than watching him try and catch, which is saying something

BDA

tim looks totally out of synch – he has thrown at least 6 or 7 flat fastballs that have done nothing, right across the plate. i hope his mechanics arent screwed up again but it sure looks that way.

BDA

the good thing is he figured it out last year

john25

and hes slow as sh**

mitchvman

I understand that Posey is hurt. However, Whiteside is not good! Everyone in the ball park knew Timmy was going to bunt except Eli. His jump was horrible!

If I’m Sabean, I’ve seen more than enough to know I have to make a move for a catcher.

mitchvman

Whiteside barely threw that ball. No oomph!

BDA

its a good thing ex giant freddy was the runner

mitchvman

BDA

It’s a better thing that Fred Lewis IS an ex-Giant!

bullship

Seriously, with a major league catcher and 1st baseman, timmy would still have a shut-out….good thing they are both the worst offensive players in all of baseball at their positions also…kind of makes up for it…..sigh…

BDA

good pt mitchv

luke mcwarmsky

Hoping hall becomes last years pat burrell not this years meh guel tehada

mitchvman

That 25 minute closed door hitting meeting Bochy had yesterday must have been stellar!

Dub

I hate to be a pessimist but how many more starters do we need to lose before giving away prospects for rental players is a bad idea?

There are 3 Giants shown on sfgiants.com for All-Star consideration and all 3 are injured. At what point do the fans and management cut their losses and try the younge positional players?

Who are you willing to give up to get Hannigan or Orlando Cabrera?

bazoo

looks like they facing Cy Young again, lol…

john25

cant see anybody in the starting lineup start on any other 1st place team. whos our best hitter now? nate? tejada? huff?

Whitesides’ Noodle Arm

I’m so disgusted with Whiteside on offense and defense, he has no business being on a MLB team, regardless of how good he can call a game. I’m ready for Sanchez, or that Jackson kid who can’t hit, but is amazing behind the plate.

Keith W.

Maltsanddogs – “the Big payroll clubs hate us…”?

I love my Giants, but there are only seven teams with a higher payroll than them this year.

BDA

one thing this team didnt need was a timmy slump. it will get straightened out, but this is one thing that can’t last too long

bullship

Does anyone ever get the feeling the Giants are going to mount a rally? Or you get that feeling that we got huff, Ross and nate coming up…the giants are gonna get some runs…? Remember when you could have some confidence that the hitter was gonna come thru even through there were 2 outs….

I have not felt that way watching the giants in quite some time….felt it a few times with posey…and started to with Pablo….be honestly have not really felt that way since Bonds, Kent, now,

avwh

Timmy can’t even retire Leake, the P (though I think Freddy gets that ball that went off Burris’s glove).

Cincy has had base runners all over the place after the 1st inning – that 133-pitch outing definitely has screwed up Timmy somehow. 6-0 now – fergeddaboutit.

mitchvman

They take Crawford out and move “Cement Hands” Burriss to short? Then bring in Bill Hall who hasn’t picked up a bat in over a week!

Brilliant!

BDA

bullship – the giants lead the nl – by a lot – in winning when after being down after 5 innings. this might be insurmountable today but most days i personally am quite confident usually

BDA

mitchv good time to break in hall – this is like a 15r deficit to most normal teams

guy

Timmy looks like last August, Whiteside blows, Huff looks like he pounded a 12 pack of Natty Ice last night, Ross looks like he’s “guessing ” at the dish, Burriss is awful, and Bochy is an idiot. Other than that, we’re good!

bazoo

Timmy’s ERA up to 3.41

OMT

Shell shocked from the loss of Freddy? Looks that way.

lamekuma

Timmy’s first five games with Buster last year were pretty bad too. Maybe he requires an adjustment period for new catchers.

maltsanddogs

@ Keith….. 7 more than us…..but by how much… more is their payroll then ours….thats the real ?s…go search it out. I was talking mostly about Yankees, Red Sox…..

BDA

bochy is gonna get tossed again

john25

sure timmy is struggling but you gotta feel for the guy. he goes out and battles his rear off against a team like the reds who are sending guys like bruce, votto, rolen, phillips, stubbs to the dish and timmy goes back in the dugout only to see huff ross burriss crawford rowand harmlessly popup on the first pitch continuously

uncle joe mccarthy

bochy broke timmy with that 133 pitch outing…FIRE BOCHY

TheCity

Kind of silly to pretend the Giants are a low-payroll team.

BDA

if hall hrs here i will feel better

mitchvman

They are afraid of Hall!

mitchvman

BDA

More talking about taking Crawford out and leaving Burriss in!

mitchvman

For all of thos who were high on Tejada “earlier” this morning. He’s back to the weak ground outs!

BDA

it hurts me to agree with you mitchv but it does make more sense that buriss goes out. i am sure bochy had some kind of reason, maybe crawford is tired? i dont know

JD4SF

Hall patient at the plate drawing a walk, broke up a potential double play with his wide slide at 2nd resulting in a wide off balance throw. Good outing.

Timmy pitching like he did when he started with Buster when Molina left. Seems to have a tough time adjusting to having a new catcher.

BDA

i think tejada is being affected by whitesides poor backstopping today, that is the reason for the grounders

mitchvman

BDA – Don’t be hurt,

Together We’re Giant!

BDA

karros is a tough announcer to listen to. i dont need to hear how critical it is that the reds improve their offense.

Suspicious

Bill Hall: “His career high for homers was 35, in 2006 with the Brewers.”

Steroids? HGH? Ovaltine?

JD4SF

MUCH prefer listening to the regular Giants announcers. National tv announcers are East Coast team oriented, and the bias is obvious.

john25

@BDS couldn’t agree more. brennaman is the voice of the reds so hes not gonna bypass an oppurtunity to gush over the reds and karros is an ex dodger, enough said. giants fans dont wanna hear how the reds need to improve their offensive production at 3b and lf when not a single starter on the giants is good enough to start for most teams

john25

BDA**

BDA

yeah – that is what grated me, there are 8 giants playing today that wouldn’t be playing on the reds starting lineup and they have to talk about the reds weakness? ha. what a goofy strike that was that was just called on schierholtz

Mavo

I am sick and tired of reading all this BS about Timmy being out of whack due to his catcher!! He has thrown good games to Whiteside in the past … when his mechanics were OK! How does a catcher affect a guy’s mechanics? And even if it IS true then Timmy has to get over it.. he’s a two time Cy Young winner and should be able to throw effectively to any ML catcher … certainly to Whiteside who has been on the team now for three years!

OMT

Timmy’s ERA before Buster got hurt was 2.06. It’s now 3.41.

In the only game Whiteside caught Timmy before Buster got hurt he allowed 5er in 6.1inn.

In his 9 starts with Buster catching he only allowed 11er in 63.2inn. 1.56era
0er in 4 starts, 1er in 2 starts, and 3er in 3 starts.

Something to this Whiteside theory by the looks of it.

OMT

@mavo

I agree. Get over it Timmy!

ReadytoHangMyself

Ugh!

Mavo

And all you amateur psychologists out their who think Timmy is messed up due to his catcher … do you think Bochy and old catcher, or Righetti would not notice it and make some adjustments with the catcher during the game? The only area a catcher can help is with pitch selection and Bochy or Rags would be on that in a nanosecond if it was a problem. And another area would be with a runner on third Timmy might be a bit nervous about bouncing a breaking ball in the dirt if he does not trust the catcher. Other than those two areas I am at a loss to think HOW Whiteside is the reason Timmy is getting lit up lately. But I am amazed at the utter silliness of some things posted here.. how on earth does the catcher make Timmy miss his target or hang a slider or curveball??? Ridiculous!

BDA

lincecum will get over it. his mechanics are pretty dam complicated and there has been a boatload of distractions, and now rowand is out, and they are on a long stretch of games wow – i can see how he might get out of whack – the whole team is out of whack

JD4SF

Remember Timmy’s slump last year was when Molina left. And post season Timmy even said in an interview he had a hard time adjusting to Buster.

I see the same thing as a repeat now… not adjusting well to another catcher change … and I don’t think who the actual catcher is matters. The Freak apparently doesn’t perform well unless he has many games in the books with that particular catcher.

This also puts Timmy’s pitching performance in question if the Giants bring in a new catcher, and Timmy needs yet another bunch of games adjusting to a new catcher.

BDA

mavo – i can see how the catcher might contribute to the overall effect…… there does seem to be a pattern. but lincecum problem isnt because of whiteside

Mavo

Sorry, but Whiteside is a good catcher! He calls a good game back there. He may not be the best ball blocker or thrower.. but those things should NOT affect Timmy that much if at all! Bochy KNOWS catchers and catching .. don’t you think? On today’s pregame radio show Bochy said they were not serious about putting Panda behind the plate … because of the risk factor with our best hitter … and BECAUSE he likes the job both catchers are doing since Buster went down. He mentioned that they are NOT offensive guys. but on his pitching dominated team that was not as important as how they called the game! Gee, where have I heard THAT before? Maybe Bochy took one or two of my postings last night and read them over the air today!!! lol

mitchvman

Mavo,

If you are not comfortable with your catcher then your mechanics (confidence) gets thrown off because you do not wish for a ball to be thrown and not blocked, etc. This has happened often with Whiteside and a point I made a couple of months ago when Bochy sat Posey (for no reason) and Timmy threw horribly to Eli. It may not be rational and certainly mental. However, to suggest that it doesn’t exist is just inaccurate.

While Whiteside has not helped out by being horrible defensively. You are right Timmy NEEDS to get over it! In watching Timmy I think he sometimes lacks full concentration!

BDA

well lincecum has gotten into two funks, and the reasons will probably never be made to us mere mortals, and the reds, i mean fox announcers just rip ross for his bad cf work

http://cctimes Judge Wapner

So much for the “keep Whiteside, he knows how to call a good game” sentiment. The Giants need to make a change at catcher.

I LOVE the idea of Panda catching this year. He’s better than anyone we could get on the market.. and him catching pretty much guarantees that Buster will catch again next year (if he can).

For all those who think the Giants are dumb for putting a good hitter behind the plate: you aren’t looking at things properly. The reason you do that is because it gives you an advantage over other teams who DONT have a good hitter behind the plate.

Buster is a very good hitter, but he’s not one of the best hitters in the league; at least not yet. He has slightly above average power, and he’ll probably be a .300 hitter throughout his career. What makes him such a star is that he’s a CATCHER with those hitting abilities.

Yes, Buster got hurt. But guys get hurt in professional sports. Freddy just got hurt, and he plays 2B!!

No giants catcher has been hurt since Mike Matheny in 2006.. The position carries some injury potential, but the Giants cannot play for guys NOT to get hurt. They need to put their best team on the field, and let the chips fall where they may.

Pablo came up as a catcher. Sure, he may not be the best catcher defensively, but I’m sure he can’t be any worse than Whiteside. And Pablo gives the Giants an advantage behind the plate; he’ll be a better hitter than almost every other catcher the Giants will compete against.

Plus, Pablo is a “heart and soul” guy. He’s the kind of guy a team needs behind the plate, because he has the respect of his teammates.

Long term, I think Panda is a 3B or maybe a 1B.. but this year, the team needs a catcher. Rather than trade away pitching or young talent, use Panda behind the plate, and lets get this offense going.

ECJ

mitchvman

For those scoring at home.

In one weeks time that was the 6th Pop-Up that Huff could have caught but did not!

staggering!

Mavo

Sorry I’d buy this Whiteside as Timmy’s problem if he has not had success with Whiteside in the past! In the last regular season game I was able to attend before I got seriously ill .. in Aug 2009 .. Timmy pitched 8 innings of shut out three hit ball .. and who was catching? Whiteside!

There maybe a correlation but if so I worry about Timmy’s psyche if he is that sensitive to who’s catching!!

Mavo

@Judge Wapner – go to KNBR website and listen to Bochy pre-game show today! He almost quoted me verbatim from this discussion we had last night on this subject of the Panda catching. Not going to happen!!

Mavo

@Judge Wapner

You neglected to mention Todd Greene who got his career ended by Prince Fielder’s cheap shot at the plate in 2006! And you neglect to mention the toll catching takes on a hitter’s stats over the course of a whole long season. Posey would definitely have better numbers if he played a less taxing position!

OMT

Yeah BDA. Timmy’s problem is not because of Whiteside. Timmy’s problem appears to be between his ears in regards to unfamiliar or not trusting his catcher. He needs to believe in himself more, as only he is in control of himself. He is a perfectionist it seems and certain things affect him and his “zen”. But still… he needs to get past it, and he’s done it before, so he should be able to again. Just my opinion, I could be way off.

john25

@mavo you said that whiteside is a good catcher besides not being able to block anything in the dirt or throw out anybody. and thats not even considering how incompetent he is with a bat in his hands. what else goes into being a good catcher? calling a good game? boch calls the pitches from the dugout. whiteside is the worst starting catcher in the major leagues, oh wait he isnt a starter, hes a BACKUP.

The Wisdom Cow

Whiteside is nothing like the back up catcher we got used to seeing. I don’t know if it is an energy thing, but he was bad today. Lazy at blocking balls, it looked an awful lot like Bengie last year. Count me a one that thinks those past balls (and there have been a lot in Timmy’s last 3 starts) are inside Tim’s head.

I can’t get anywhere near putting Pablo at C. however. An emergency catcher, sure, but that is during a game, not a roster emergency.

Maybe the Giants will end up sellers. Pablo and Belt should come back, though both are really not sure things to produce. Can you justify trading the limited goods of the farm to improve the offense minimally?

This team should still be in the hunt for the playoffs, and anything can happen in the post season, but I look at the roster, . . . , whew. Not much offense here Everything went perfect last year, and they were scraping by. But with the pitching still strong, . . . , argh! This is one screwed up season.

BDA

well if lincecum is out of whack he sure has lots of reasons that could be causing it. i just hope it isnt physical, with the way things have been going. last year it sure wasnt a physical problem

http://cctimes Judge Wapner

And Mavo,

Enough with your redundant proclaimations that Whiteside is a good catcher.

HE’S NOT

Being a good catcher is about 1) Understanding your pitchers 2) knowing what THEY want to throw in every situation, so the pitch you call does not disrupt their flow, 3) defending the position 4) throwing out base runners, 5) providing some offense AND 6) commanding the respect of his teammates as the “captain” of the defense.

Whiteside is good at exactly 2 of these 6 things: He understands his pitchers, and he can (apparently) call pitches that his pitchers want to throw. He CANNOT:

provide offense
throw out base runners
field his position
command the respect of his teammates as “captain” of the defense

FACT: Whiteside SUCKS. I like the guy, but he’s just not that good. He’s been very fortunate to play behind two solid catchers in Molina and Posey, so his lack of talent has not been exposed until now.

Mavo, stop defending Whiteside. Your only argument for him, that he calls a good game and helps out our pitchers is clearly not true; Lincecum has been TERRIBLE for his past 4 starts. I’m not saying it is Whiteside’s fault, but you CANNOT give him CREDIT for being a solution behind the plate when his best pitcher has been terrible since Whiteside started catching him.

ECJ

BDA

it is important to remember that the giants have played something like 33 games in 34 days, and if whiteside caught 2x a month before poseys injury, that was a lot. if he is tired, it is understandable

Jeebus

Will people please stop saying that Pablo came up as a catcher? He did not. He came up as a guy who caught some games. In the minors he had more games at other positions than at catcher, and the ratio is not even close in the majors.

And he wasn’t all that great at catcher, anyway.

Whiteside deserved a shot at being the everyday guy, but he clearly can’t do it. The Giants need to find somebody better but insisting that Pablo is the magic answer is ridiculous.

The Wisdom Cow

Look at it from Tim’s perspective. If he gives up many runs, he loses. Add to it, his C is not blocking one of his more effective pitches. Tim gets a lot of strikes swinging at balls that hit the dirt after the plate but before the glove.

Anything that makes a pitcher try to guide the ball, being a perfectionist, usually screws him up.

mitchvman

I don’t think the Giants need to be sellers or quit! They are in 1st place in a very weak division. I believe this pitching staff is the BEST in the NL and has the intestinal fortitude to win it all.

The offense on the other hand is, well we all know. However, there is no reason (except for being cheap) that the Giants can’t make a trade ala the Chi-Sox trade of 15 (?) years ago. That was for a ton of pitching but it could be swapped out for hitting. If they can get 2 legitimate hitters they can be something!

Mets
Beltran & Reyes maybe Bay

Twins
Cassila, Cuddyer, Young, etc.

Orioles,
Seattle,
Cubs,
etc.

Jeebus

Wapner: Pablo, according to your six rules of catching:

1) No.
2) No.
3) Undetermined
4) Undetermined
5) Yes
6) No. He’s popular with his teammates in a lovable sense, but nobody has ever referred to him as any sort of “leader”.

Oh, and when was the last time he caught? Conditioning one’s body for playing infield is a hell of a lot different than conditioning to be catcher. he could not just step into the catching duties and be better than Whiteside because he used to occasionally play the position four years ago.

Your argument is so ridiculous, you have me on the same side as Mavo. What’s next? You gonna have me on the same side as Souza in the next debate? Sheesh.

Mavo

@Judge Wapner .. before you attack my opinion of Whiteside as a catcher, I suggest you go listen to Bochy’s pre-game radio show today. Are you going to suggest to me SERIOUSLY that Bochy does not know as much about what makes a good catcher as YOU???? Get serious!

Anther factor working against Whiteside is he is now catching everyday and needs to get used to that again. It’s been three years since he caught everyday. I was a catcher when I played baseball and even at 18 or 19 years old playing many less games .. I was beat up after each game and TIRED! For Whiteside it is like his spring training still! I love all you “EXPERTS” that probably never played that much ball making all these silly proclamations!!

BDA

mitchv who are you willing to trade?

mitchvman

Wisdom cow 96.

Correct!

Mavo

@BDA June 11th, 2011 at 3:53 pm

I just noticed your posting and couldn’t agree with you more! These guys think catching is like a day at the beach and any old guy can put on the gear and get in a crouch!!

And Krukow is just now telling Jon Miller on the radio about how Timmy has to work out some mechanical problems with Rags… he did not mention the catcher.. but of course all the EXPERTS on here know pitching better than Kruk!! NOT!!!

BDA

mavo – one thing bochy will never do is throw someone under the bus, especially if that player is absolutely needed. whiteside hasn’t looked good defensively, be it his arm or blocking of balls in the dirt. i dont remember that in his spot starts. i hope it is because he is tired.

Mavo

@Wisdom Cow – we usually agree on stuff but looking at Timmy’s pitching lately it is a mechanical flaw in his complicated delivery… not confidence in his catcher.

http://cctimes Judge Wapner

Mavo,

THINK ABOUT IT… IS the manager of a MLB team going to go on a radio show and say that Whiteside CANT handle the position??? HE can’t exactly say what he really thinks.. He has to worry about the consequences of his words.

WE do not. We can speak honestly about what we see. Think for yourself. Don’t quote a PR statement from a manager on a radio show.

For Crissakes, man, get real. Whiteside is the worst catcher in MLB right now. He can’t play defense, cant hit, and he needs to be replaced.

mitchvman

BDA

Ultimately, you wish to only part with prospects. However if trading Jonathan Sanchez plus some prospects can get “legitimate” hitters then go for it! We are going to have 6 starters in a couple of weeks and Zito (UNFORTUNATELY) isn’t going anywhere. Vogelsong, you never know, but he looks good even being squeezed in a loss last night. Burriss can go and I know, I am the only one but I don’t believe in Schierholtz as an every day player! Some team could get sucked into his “pinch hitting” prowess!
It can be done!

Mavo

@BDA I agree that Whiteside has not done a very good job at blocking balls in the dirt or throwing.. and I can only attribute that to his getting tired after not be accustomed to catching every day for three years. He did not show any defensive liabilities when he caught once a week!

Mavo

@mvm

There you go AGAIN .. bashing Schierholtz! You DO know there are many more ways to contribute to winning baseball than JUST hitting??? Don’t you???? I wonder sometimes!

mitchvman

Mavo,

Bochy in a television interview is never going to say anything except “Whiteside is great!” Timmy is very mental and Wisdom Cow is absolutely right! I said it too, many times. He is forcing his pitches, which throws off his mechanics, because he doesn’t trust Eli will catch the balls in the dirt, etc. Anybody can see it!

The Wisdom Cow

Just a thought. It’s bad thought. I don’t like that I had it, but I did, and it does make me curious.

What would Timmy bring in trade?

For the money they save not having him, a top shelf pitcher can easily be purchased over the winter for next season, though I am not necessarily considering this a “sell” situation. He’s great and has years remaining under team control. Is it possible that a team with a ridiculous farm system like Tampa could be talked into a Hershal Walker-like trade, 5-6 or more top prospects. We’d still have a very, very strong bullpen and an above average rotation.

Just thinking out loud, er, uh, in writing.

BDA

mitchv i’d trade zito, runzler that’s about it. i realize that would probably get us ohhhhh maybe bill hall, i do wonder if the powers that be will trade one of their kingpins, this offense has stretches where it looks worse than putrid. i hope they take a chance and keep things as is.

The Wisdom Cow

Mavo, I don’t doubt it is mechanics, but that is precisely the type of thing that develops because he’s been guiding his pitches. Sometimes, the mental side is what causes the physical change.

I’m guessing. I just see a nexus between one of Tim’s better pitches getting by Whiteside with some regularity and the prospect that he is trying to be too perfect.

mitchvman

Mavo 108.

Yeah so? Not on this team! If you have an offense that is the worst in the league you cannot afford to carry a “defensive specialist” which with as much as you are in love with Nate, that is all he is and will ever be! If the Giants were the Red Sox, Yankees, Tigers, Brewers, Reds, Cardinals and any other potential playoff team you wish to mention then Nate would be fine. We all know the Giants aren’t in the same “league” offensively as these guys! By the way, the Giants believe this too (as Schierholtz pops up the first pitch) Otherwise they would run him out there everyday and not constantly looking for an upgrade!

Mavo

@Wisdom Cow – teams only do those kinds of “selling” when they can’t afford to sign a player. And besides, Timmy is the face of the franchise with two Cy Youngs and a World Championship now under his belt! There would be a revolt if they traded him no matter how many young prospects he fetched!

mitchvman

They do never quit though!

Mavo

@mvm

I’d like to refer you to the last time they played Nate everyday.. the start of the 2010 season. In the first month of the season, playing EVERYDAY, Nate was hitting well over .300.. then he hurt his shoulder and it bothered him the whole season. And since then Bochy is enamored with this outfield rotation and keeping his bench players involved. He needs to stick Nate in RF and FORGET about it!

OMT

Finally. Pat the Bat returns. A glimmer of hope in a dismal day.

mitchvman

BDA

Everyone would love to trade Zito. It will never happen! Runzler though could be packaged in for that “hitter”

BDA

halls 8 run hr makes giants history

slash78

Don’t panic everybody! Bochy is a Great Manager! Out Pitching and Tejada’s hot bat will carry us! And Sabean will make great vetran pickups that will bring us to the promise land again!

NOT!!!

JD4SF

I couldn’t find the online article post season where Timmy quite bluntly said he had trouble adjusting to pitching to Buster after Molina left. Buster also said of the 10 pitchers lsat year it took longest to get in sync with Timmy after Molina left.

Timmy appears to have trouble staying consistent after a starting catcher change, which I believe triggers messing with his head, resulting in messing up his mechanics.

Mavo

So Burrell finally ran into one! At least they did not get shut out again!

mitchvman

Mavo,

Yes, I would refer you to that! He was not the opening day starter in 2010 John Bowker was! Then Bowker was traded and Schierholtz came in and was ok for a week or two then fell off drastically. Hence the Pat Burrell signing!

He will never be an everyday player period! I am tired of telling you this! In baseball years he is getting old at 27 for it to be true! You can fantasize all you want! Won’t make it so! They gave him 7 games in a row last week and his average dropped which is par for the course of his career. He has virtually no power (do not say anything about the Coors field HR) and he is a career .269 hitter who is currently hitting .257!

The End Get over it! The Giants need legitimate hitters, period!

Mavo

@slash78 – why so pessimistic all the time? Look at the standings with all the injuries, lack of offense and now Timmy’s head problems with his “man crush” on Buster … they STILL are in first place! A little perspective may be in order, don’t you thnk?

The Wisdom Cow

Mavo, believe me, that was kinda my point regarding a Tim trade. See. What could he bring in return? I can only think Tampa because it is the only club I know of with an obscene farm system. But consider such a trade, so outside the norm of mlb. If Tampa was not giving up more than one or two players off the current team, but a boat load of prospects, 5-6 considered “can’t miss” types, and 3-4 or them ready for big league play now, Tampa might have to consider it.

And while it would undoubtedly cause a revolt initially, if Tampa vastly overpaid, just as Minnesota vastly overpaid for Hershal Walker, setting up the Dallas dynasty in the NFL, that is the type of things SF fans would understand. That is why I brought it up.

I don’t want to trade any of the top pitching. I scoff at the idea of trading Cain. Yet, the idea of trading the single most valuable piece you have, should you be able to get twice or even three times the actual value in return, plus save money that could be used to sign a stud FA pitcher for next season on top of it. Why not kick around a bold idea?

Mavo

@mvm I suggest you go back and look at how Nate was performing for OVER a month from April 2010 to May 2010 as the EVERYDAY RF before he hurt his shoulder … before I pull out the stats and make you look silly! This is the ONLY time in his career that they have put him out there for any extended amount of time.

Besides you constantly dismiss how important Nate’s defensive skills help out and his clutch hitting.

BDA

this team can take a lot of hits but when the ace starts to get the dreaded “hitters struggling curse” in reverse, things could really start getting ugly. here’s hoping it is a short sickness.

You answered you own question there… the reason trades like this are not made any more is teams just wait to do what you want the Giants to do when they trade Lincecum.. namely sign a stud SP in free agency! So why trade and take a chance when you just sign the pitcher you want in the off-season. Of course when you mess that up by signing a Zito then you may not be able to keep Timmy or Cainer!!

Mavo

@mvm.. and you are not consistent! You Huff and puff about how many pop ups Aubrey has dropped … and then at the same time you discount how important Nate’s defense is in RF and how many runs that may save the team over the course of a year!

mitchvman

Mavo 126.

I suggest you take the “Nate the Great” poster down from over your bed and replace it with one of Shawn Cassidy. His career was longer then Nate’s will ever be!

For the last time. The Giants DO NOT NEED/CAN”T AFFORD A DEFENSIVE SPECIALIST! They NEED legitimate Hitters!

slash78

Mavo, the 2009 Giants didn’t make the playoffs and neither did the 2010 Padres. They both had good pitching, but were awful offensively. It’s June. How long did the Pads hold on to first place before finally (and painfully) coughing it up?

I rather have some hope for 2012-13-14 then have no hope (save a winning record) for 2011. For that the Giants need to see if Belt, Crawford and some others can support a fully health Posey and Sandoval next season.

You see, I DIDN’T like the 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 seasons that much. Nor the 2009 season. Not as much as I like the 2010 season. And while repeating the latter might be very difficult and might not happen for a while, I rather build for that latter.

Burrell was traded for BEFORE Bowker was traded. Burrell was the backup plan for DeRosa and have nothing to do with Bowker or Schierholtz.

The standings don’t matter much in July. And you get NOTHING for being in 1st place part, or even most of the season. Just if you’re in 1st place after game 162 (and we are only at game 64).

mitchvman

Mavo 130

I am absolutely consistent! I was talking about Huff’s defensive liability of late (nothing to do with Nate’s situation) However, Aubrey is not a defensive specialist! He is here for his offense. Regardless if it is currently lacking! If/when he hits the defense lack will not look so large! Now it does!

Common Sense!

Now you are grasping at straws!

BDA

mitchv you are really posting from weak ground by ripping a guy who almost singlehandly won 3 games by himself last week – and i am not referring to shaun cassidy

MetalGiants

Somebody, trainer, bat boy or whoever, needs to have a bong packed and ready to go so Timmy can clear his head in between half innings. He would be more relaxed and less worried who’s behind the plate if he had some herbal refreshment in the dugout. It couldn’t hurt!

Foothills Ryan

Man what happened ? The box score is all I know. What’s the story ?

How was his stuff? Was he just missing spots ? Getting unlucky ? Squeezed ?

Or are we talking Augustian slumpy looking stuff ?!?

The lack of offense would be much easier to presume. There’s a nifty little .220’s club within the team and Bill Hall is the newest member. Congrats.
I also see that a member of the roaring .220’s hit one out in garbage time. That’s a good sign of life that we haven’t seen in way over a month.

Somebody tell me some silver lined good stuff about the game. Thanks in advance

The Wisdom Cow

Mavo, but Tampa would get him now, be a true contender, now. Afterwards, Tim is still under their control, even if expensive.

It is not going to happen and I’ll let it go. But I don’t think the idea is all that ridiculous, just a little ridiculous

Now, I do not think the stars are going to align for this organization as it did last season. Bill Hall may be able to win some games with some HRs, and there may be other similar dumpster pick ups on the horizon, but you never find a quality defensive C in the dumpster bin, and Posey was the linchpin of the WS win last season.

The post season is very possible, even still likely, with the current group and now major deals, but these guy are nowhere close to last years playoff squad. Things change. Anything is possible. But what are the odds of lightning striking again in the post season with a different band of misfits?

Woj

Whiteside stinks. Get rid of him. No other team in their right mind would sign him to anything but an AAA contract. He is zilch offensively, can’t block pitches consistently, can’t throw out runners, does nothing above average. Yet, by injury he’s the starter??!! Scour the waiver wires and dump Eli for even an average scrap heap catcher. Lincecum has been lousy since Posetywent down due to no chemistry with Whiteside.

Mavo

@mvm .. OK because you choose to try and insult me AGAIN.. I’ll post the stats here so others can see how ridiculous your arguments are about Nate.

From April 17, 2010 to May 17, 2010 after Bowker was traded the Giants played Nate in RF everyday. The only time they have given him any extended playing time. Unfortunately on May the 19th Nate hurt his shoulder and it bothered him the rest of the season. So what were Nate’s stats on May 17th after playing a whole month in RF against lefties and righties??? He was hitting .309, slugging .443 with an OBP of .380 .. and all this with his great defense to boot!!

But of course Mitchvman wants to insult me by making stupid references to my bedroom wall appointments. I submit to all those on here that we KNOW who the problem is here!

PS – my office wall has many baseball pictures and such but none of Nate! Maybe I’ll have to address that … once I figure out what to do with this Barry Zito poster from 2007! lol

slash78

Did I miss something or Doesn’t Schierholtz have better numbers then Huff Right now?

Coming into the game Nate had an OPS of .722 (about league Average) and Huff .673. Huff went 0-for-3 and Nate 1-for-4. And it’s not like Nate can’t keep his current level of “production” up (or flat is more like it). Huff however has had these kinds of season before and doesn’t seem to be be coming out of it. His numbers are good away from AT&T so he probably has some trade value if you eat some of his salary. Belt should be health in a week (if not now) and can take over at 1B. He’s already got a better glove, better speed and better plate discipline that Huff does. The AVG and SLG should come along with BIG LEAGUE experience.

BDA

if pat, while walking back to the dugout after touching home, said to himself “so that is what the f*** i’ve been doing wrong lately!”, then that is the silver lining to this loss…… of course he could have said “wow, did i ever guess right there” we will find out

Foothills Ryan

Thanks BDA. Now WTF happened to Lincecum today ?!?

BDA

you will have to read posts 25-125

ReadytoHangMyself

How anyone can be ripping Nate right now is beyond me. We’ve got a roster full of 5 tool liabilities and Nate seems to be the least of the issues. He may only be a AAAA player, but beats the hell out of the AAA players wasting oxygen right now.

The Wisdom Cow

I’ll be clear.

The Giants can make the playoffs without any significant deals.

The Giants will not win in the playoffs without a significant upgrade at catcher.

A significant upgrade at catcher is going to be expensive, even if only for a top defensive catcher.

—————————————–

I am a believe in pitching and defense being more important than hitting. A catcher’s defense is part of both pitching and defense. The position is arguably the most important one on the field for a team that lacks hitting and wants to depend on their pitching staff.

Mavo

@Wisdom Cow

I totally agree with you that the Giants can still make the playoffs this year But I do not think the catching position is nearly the problem you and many others do on here. Plenty of teams have won World Series with average catchers behind the plate… their main job is to call the pitches, block the low pitches, frame the zone, throw out runners and any hitting is a bonus! And I think Whiteside will get better as the season goes on and he gets used to catching everyday again.

Foothills Ryan

BDA, i was not satisfied with my re-read of posts 25-115.

Current posters too caught up to offer much insight.

The Wisdom Cow

Yes, Mavo, but those teams won with superior offenses to go with their well above average pitching. Last year’s team would not have made the playoffs without Buster behind the plate, let alone win the world series.

Mavo

Losing Buster and now Freddy is going to make it DIFFICULT to make another run this year.. no doubt about THAT!

Wisdom Crow

Hitting from your catcher is only a bonus when there are other legitimate hitters in the lineup. This offense was built around Posey and he will not be replaced by Whiteside, Stewart, or some stiff from the waiver wire.

mitchvman

Mavo if Schierholtz becomes a starter and hits .280 or higher I will get you an Autographed picture of Nate for your office!

BDA 134.

Yes, Nate had some good hits this week, but last week he didn’t. Next week? Who knows! Everyone goes through those stretches! Everyone had forgiven Tejada for the whole season this morning because he hit 4 doubles in the last 2 days. How did he do today? Tomorrow? When he goes 0-4 tomorrow batting 2nd and has 1 errors. Then what will be the posts?

This team could make the playoffs. However, as I have said many times your flaws are ALWAYS exposed in the playoffs and the Giants will not advance with this offense etc!

BDA

Foothills Ryan: lincecum was pretty wild, and the stuff that went over the plate went straight. a few deep flies, crawford made a nice dp – whiteside probably should have blocked a couple of pitches, most batters seemed to know when to swing and when to layoff. i don’t think there was one swing at a ball in the dirt. i can remember only one strikeout but sure there were others. i probably have this half right so hope others will fill in the blanks

Channelclemente

Well, that’s the last hunch I’ll utter. Anybody still want Ross in CF, those days are way behind him, he’s a bad CF, adequate to poor RF, and a good to average LF. Anybody got any bets on Huff’s next popup catch? Can Whiteside be assigned an ERA, he’s earning one?

If Huff and Ross don’t find the range, the supporting cast isn’t going to carry the water, hows that for a well mixed metaphor.

My one big question is, do we have enough bullpen left to handle Sanchez’s daily requirement per outing?

After an a– kicking like this, tomorrow can only be an improvement. Let’s get a split guys.

Channelclemente

You guys are still worrying that Schierholtz bone. If he just hits .240 on an everyday basis, that’s a positive. If Huff and Ross don’t find the RBI switch, the least of your worries is Schierholtz.

tom

Bet Sabean goes out now and overpays badly for a catcher. It can’t go on this way running out stiffs like whiteside and the bullpen cather stewart.

Giant PITA

@mavo,

I usually agree with your logical posts on this blog, but seem to be asking everyone to ignore what we are seeing when watching Whiteside play. He’s not blocking balls consistently, nor is he making big league throws to second on steal attempts. He obviously can’t even hit is weight, so tell us again how he’s a good catcher and he’s going to improve if he plays more? I don’t think so. I guess we’ll see as it looks like Bochy will keep running him out there until he has other options (besides Stewart, who at least looks better defensively).

Also, you tell us that we should trust Bochy in regard to Whiteside’s ability, because he was a catcher and knows the position and his players and he’s better than he’s showing right now. But, then you are not happy that Bochy doesn’t just stick with Nate in RF as the everyday starter? Doesn’t your feeling about trusting Bochy extend to the rest of the team or only the catcher position since that is what he played back in the day?

Maybe I’m wrong, but after reading all your posts in this thread it seems your support of Bochy’s ability to judge his players talent and make out the lineup is inconsistent. Or maybe you just know better than him in certain areas?

CB

I’ve got a name for you guys: a prospect who just called up to Triple-A from A-Ball. The Venezuelan Hector Sanchez. Guy can apparently flat out rake like Sandoval was to open some eyes down in A-Ball. I said it on an earlier blog on one of my posts. But maybe Giants give him a look. Anything is better offensively right now than what Whiteside and Stewart is giving us. And Defensively, whiteside has been terrible. We are barely getting by, but we need something for the short-term. But Sanchez hit .301 with 8HR and 46RBI’s with the top minor league team San Jose Giants. And went 1 for 3 with an RBI in his Grizzlies debut in AAA.

Gigantes101

@CB Interesting. But yeah, why not give that kid a look. He looks like a beast, too. My friend said when he went to see Wheeler throw a week or two ago down in San Jose. He said, who is that guy catching behind the plate. He can flat out rake and called a good game for Wheeler and looks pretty solid behind the plate.

Giant PITA

CB, There’s no way that kid is ready to step into the MLB lineup. It’s a big jump to go from A to AAA as it is. I think Sabean is hoping he will continue to hit and play well at AAA and if he does for 20-30 games you may get your wish.

TheCity

I had to quit this thread when it started veering toward trading Tim Lincecum.

Unreal.

Steverino

I really don’t understand the anti schierholtz postings today.

With the lack of hitting on this team *that’s* where some of you are going to start? Of active giants, he is 3rd in avg and 2nd in slugging. On base, just 5th. I’d say his current performance is rather valuable, even if you discount his D.

Compare his numbers against all major league outfields with more than a handful of ABs. What will you find? He’s no HOF’er, but he’s earned his spot in the lineup.

Steverino

“your flaws are ALWAYS exposed in the playoffs ”

I think the G’s missed that memo in 2010.

ClutchUp

Still Stuck in Stockton playing the Club from Lodi…hey that could be a song.

WoW and Yikes. Lots of experts…..negativity…Have you EVER played this game….where by there is another game tomorrow? ML players just flush things and turn the page, not like here where we rankle on until the first pitch of the next game.

If a horrible loss like todays or a one run loss like the opener with the Reds….were WORTH more than 1 L in th loss column then I say bi*ch on.

But its game on tomorrow….The 133 pitch performance affected TL. Its time that the goons like Barbeiri who clammored for Bochy not to baby Lincecums pitch count to be put into the closet he came out of.

27 outs = Sunday

10dollabeerz

ClutchUp –

Must you insult everyone by facetiously calling them “experts” for stating their opinions, then proceed to write your own opinions as if they are facts?

That’s why we all post here – to express our opinions. None of us (besides you, apparently) think we are experts. We just express how we feel about the club.

Let people post what they want without ridicule and degradation.

Mavo

@Giants PITA – I have agreed that Whiteside has not looked good defensively … but I surmise it is due to his adjusting to playing every day behind the plate.

And YES I trust Bochy’s judgement on catchers and pitchers a LOT more then I do his opinions on other position players. You answered your own question in your posting.

Let’s see if Whiteside can tighten up his defense and throwing as he never looked this bad when he was backing up!

Julia 55

Hey Andy,

Thanks so much for signing my book yesterday before the game, and for letting me take your photo.

This diehard fan stayed to the end yesterday to see Pat the Bat’s 2-run HR, which we called from 304) so we could leave with our heads high. I was disappointed to be at the two flat energy games this week (Tuesday loss against the Nats) but believe the Giants will return reinvigorated today to split the series with the Reds. Welcome to Bill Hall, he looks good and will probably fit in easily. His versatility defensively and his hitting will help. I hope Timmy’s remembering what he was going through last August and learn again to get out of this June swoon. He really seems like he’s spacing out and that’s not good. Also, nice to be in the park to welcome the newbie Joe Panik. If only the Giants had won, would have been an all-around great day.

As much as I want Lincecum to be a Giant for life, getting two lousy draft picks for him would not make up for the lost of his production. At some point the Giants will need to determine whether he is signable into his free agent years, and if not, we need to look into what value he has on the trade market.

Of course, if it is a lame deal like the one Toronto proposed publicly a few years ago with Rios, then pass, but if we can get a boatload of prospects from somebody like Tampa or KC or Pittsburgh, the Giants need to at least put some feelers out and see who is willing to pony up the prospects.

I think this off-season will determine his future path, either we sign him to a 3-4 year deal at, say, $20-25M per, or we should start looking to get some big package of prospects for him, so we don’t end up like the Twins with Johan and get crap for him as well as lose him. I would rather hold him to the end than get crap for him.

But if we get a huge package for him, like the A’s got for Haren, except that we are talking Cy Young winner, plus probably stick them with Zito and/or Rowand, then the Giants would have to consider it if Lincecum appears to not want to be here long-term at a reasonable salary.

Hey, most teams in baseball would love to have a rotation headed up by Cain and Bumgarner, plus we got Wheeler and Surkamp ready to join soon, plus whatever good pitching prospect we can get out of the trade (I would expect at least one good pitching prospect and two good hitting prospects out of the deal, plus others not as good but that the Giants like).

And while we are at it, I would look into trading Sanchez too, get a good prospect or two out of the deal, depending on how desperate the other team is.

But ideally, the Giants are able to sign Lincecum long-term, that should be their first efforts at that. But if he makes it clear that he’s going free agent the moment he can, unless he gets the money he wants, then it would behoove the team to see what he can bring in trade.

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