I think we should stick to using the word god. It's a term everyone can relate to and it pretty much covers all of the above ...... even if those who use it most (believers and unbelievers both) often struggle to define it. One could even argue that it is somewhat less loaded than some of the other terms suggested here. And, perhaps more importantly, using it outside of its generally understood meaning when used here on the TMB may help those who have already found god realise that there may be other gods to find too. Matt10

Post by Jason Storebo on Dec 3, 2015 15:24:31 GMT -5

How about considering that we all are extensions of God, the Source. We are God individualized in the flesh, and we are here to rediscover our inherent divinity...whether we consciously realize it or not.

Post by Scott Ross on Dec 3, 2015 16:30:25 GMT -5

I tend to use the word God as a metaphor too, because I wind up lumping everybody's god into the same concept, though it would be cool to move beyond that. Campbell's quote fails to consider agnostics as a category. Anyway, I haven't heard yet from Admin about creating a subboard, hang in there.

I will see if I can get something set up for you. Perhaps you could give those who don't know you as a long-time contributor here a link to your website/books. Not everyone would remember you as the old dietcoke dude. If nothing else, I can delete comments from those you don't want contributing.

I also don't think there would be a need to restrict who can post, as many of us have went through times of doubt and searching to get where we now are, and may have good thoughts to contribute without pushing an agenda of believer/atheist/agnostic/dumbass.

Post by placid-void on Dec 3, 2015 16:51:30 GMT -5

The words are important....especially when they suggest underlying assumptions/biases that might be held by some but not others. You end up with built-in limits to the discussion.

I am interested in the use of imagery and metaphor and ritual by human beings in religious settings and otherwise. I would not call my interest a "search for God".

I like some of the work of Joseph Campbell in this regard.

I have always liked Joseph Campbell, and have considered him one of the more significant influences in my life.

I like this quote of his (The Hero's Journey documentary):

"God is a metaphor for a mystery that absolutely transcends all human categories of thought, even the categories of being and non-being. Those are categories of thought. I mean it's as simple as that. So it depends on how much you want to think about it. Whether it's doing you any good. Whether it is putting you in touch with the mystery that's the ground of your own being. If it isn't, well, it's a lie. So half the people in the world are religious people who think that their metaphors are facts. Those are what we call theists. The other half are people who know that the metaphors are not facts. And so, they're lies. Those are the atheists."

This resonated deeply with me when I first heard it (I was still a 2X2) and I did not feel it conflicted with any of my most deeply held beliefs. I have been amazed at the anger and defensiveness it elicits from some people, even ones I would have expected to have understood what he was expressing. When I was searching for this quote I came across a discussion of whether Campbell was a theist or an atheist, based on this quote. My thought: "They really don't get what he was saying". But then, I think I am comfortable with way more cognitive dissonance than most people - possibly because I spend a significant portion of my life trying to go beyond thought, and to rest in the space/stillness/silence between thoughts.

Yesterday, I noticed emy's tagline of "Don't believe everything you think!" and I gave a small chuckle. I think all serious searches for God has this as a founding principle.

Thank you SharonArnold, I, too, have found Joseph Campbell to be an important guidepost in my journey but had forgotten the passage you posted.

I love the idea of grasping Emy's tagline as a founding principle.

I differ from your perspective to some degree, however. I am interested in a "search for God". As an agnostic, being unable to know does not quench the desire to learn. To the extent that God is a metaphor for a mystery that transcends human thought, I remain interested in the search for guideposts in this mystery called life to inform my understanding of purpose, meaning and role in that greater mystery.

Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 3, 2015 17:30:00 GMT -5

Thank you, Scott! For those who don't know me, I started as....um...LeftFist? LeftShoe? Maybe both. Then I went to DietCoke, then to DubiousDisciple when I began to publish. You can check me out at www.dubiousdisciple.com though the site is a little stagnant as I just started up a Fantasy Football commissioner service and it's taking all my free time. The books I've written are on that site.

I'm just another crotchety, opinionated ex. Of course I don't REALLY mean to exclude anybody. You put it best, Scott: no "pushing an agenda." Even Jason's Spiritualist conclusion, haha.

Post by dmmichgood on Dec 3, 2015 19:02:44 GMT -5

The words are important....especially when they suggest underlying assumptions/biases that might be held by some but not others. You end up with built-in limits to the discussion.

I am interested in the use of imagery and metaphor and ritual by human beings in religious settings and otherwise. I would not call my interest a "search for God".

I like some of the work of Joseph Campbell in this regard.

I have always liked Joseph Campbell, and have considered him one of the more significant influences in my life.

I like this quote of his (The Hero's Journey documentary):

"God is a metaphor for a mystery that absolutely transcends all human categories of thought, even the categories of being and non-being. Those are categories of thought. I mean it's as simple as that. So it depends on how much you want to think about it. Whether it's doing you any good. Whether it is putting you in touch with the mystery that's the ground of your own being. If it isn't, well, it's a lie.

So half the people in the world are religious people who think that their metaphors are facts. Those are what we call theists. The other half are people who know that the metaphors are not facts. And so, they're lies. Those are the atheists."

This resonated deeply with me when I first heard it (I was still a 2X2) and I did not feel it conflicted with any of my most deeply held beliefs. I have been amazed at the anger and defensiveness it elicits from some people, even ones I would have expected to have understood what he was expressing. When I was searching for this quote I came across a discussion of whether Campbell was a theist or an atheist, based on this quote. My thought: "They really don't get what he was saying". But then, I think I am comfortable with way more cognitive dissonance than most people - possibly because I spend a significant portion of my life trying to go beyond thought, and to rest in the space/stillness/silence between thoughts.

Yesterday, I noticed emy's tagline of "Don't believe everything you think!" and I gave a small chuckle. I think all serious searches for God has this as a founding principle.

Yes, I did have the wrong Kabir.

When I did find the RIGHT Kabir, I did find him rather interesting, however, interesting in the same manner as I do other literature from other countries & cultures of the past.

I also liked to read & listen to Joseph Campbell for the same reason. For me he give the reasons behind WHY people believe the supernatural and why their symbols for cosmic actions often run toward the same kind of symbols but in different depictions.

Post by Gene on Dec 3, 2015 20:57:26 GMT -5

Would anyone be interested in a series of threads for a serious search for God? People who have already found him, or discovered that no god exists, this thread isn't for you. Closed minds are of no help.

The search would take seriously:1. The mystery of life, the cosmos, consciousness, goodness, inbred morality, miracle experiences and more2. Both the limitations and the magnificence of the Bible3. The fact that many denominations--indeed, many religions--feel the Spirit and are equally convinced of God's participation in their life4. Human fallibility and contradictory beliefs: though we are convinced of our beliefs, the vast majority of us (if not all of us) are likely flat out wrong about most of them.

Post by Alan Vandermyden on Dec 10, 2015 22:43:41 GMT -5

I don't check TMB often, so I only "discovered" this new sub-board today. And yes, I am interested, though perhaps disqualified, as a "believer," to do more than observe. May I say though, that for me, belief always contains an element of doubt? - "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." I find my belief to be constantly transformed, and part of that is through listening to and considering the experiences and perspectives of others, including the atheist. I am learning to not feel threatened!

For me, God is whatever is absolute in a person's life - that from which one's decisions spring, even unconsciously. And again, that is ever-changing for me. Not arbitrarily, but in a manner I see as growing and transforming. I relate deeply to the Judeo-Christian writings, and I see in them a God who repeatedly confronts people - individuals and communities - kind of grabbing them by the throat and shaking them up. To Job (in the final chapters), God said something to the effect of "Who is this using so many words? Keep quiet, and I will ask of you." This is my experience of God, whenever I find myself growing complacent (which is often!), satisfied that I "have a handle on things." Though I see God as whatever is absolute for me or another person, the instant I begin to think I have things absolutely explained, that I know the "formula," that God is at my beck and call (even through repentance, prayer, etc.), I no longer have God.

Post by snow on Oct 7, 2017 14:50:33 GMT -5

It's quite obvious to me that God has not proofed himself to everyone over and over. There are still many of us that don't believe in God, precisely because he has NOT proved to us that it exists.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by Proof on Oct 10, 2017 6:02:36 GMT -5

Well , for science to observe creation, we seeThat , Just to allow that life could arise , (as for me : Creation is Only rational , provable , reasonable , purposed )

We see that the whole universe is precisely tuned , to allow for the "Privilege of Life". (And yes Life is not only a purposed, planned , humanly miraculous, ... it is a wonderful privilege, given to us even to sustain Our conversity )

As we converse , we also can see and observe throughStudies done by humanity, that this privilege of Life may Never occurred without a miraculous Genesis, that Most of all includes the firm conclusion that No accident wasNecessary for the Creation of this privilege we have,It was purposeful, designed, and in the vast majority Of those created, a very logical , and beauteous, And most of all a home to learn all we can about theCompassion and conversity of the Plan (life/eternal )Give

Now that is something I can agree with. Love is what matters. How we treat others, how compassionate or empathetic we are. Realizing we are all in this together and the easier we can make it for others the better imo. If I believe in anything at all, it love and compassion. It hurts me to see other people hurting. I can handle my own pain far easier than I can handle watching anyone else suffering.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

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