Mayan 2012 Date Corroborated by Ancient Egyptians

Originally posted by eclectic.thoughts
I have a questions though and it seems that everyone is convinced the end of the Mayan Calender is 21st December 2012.

But Dr Johan Calleman has calculated that actually end date is the 28th October 2011.

THIS cycle of the "Long Count" does end on December 21st, 2012. Calleman is basing his ideas on the 'energy of the day'; a concept use by New
Agers but not by the ancient Mayans. They were interested in movements of the sky and the visible planets (particularly Venus), but they had those
precisely calculated... and Venus isn't going to go off its orbit any time soon.

They may have had an extended period of feasting and other celebrations, but they had no concept of any cosmic changes in 2012. In fact, there are
dates on some of their monuments that refer to years much later than 2012.

Here is my latest research into the structures at Giza. The presentation below (in Powerpoint format) is self-explanatory.

It seems the Mayan calander end-date of 2,012 CE is a date also being indicated by the Ancient Egyptians in the structures at Giza:

I don't think your evidence supports this, Scott. It would be astonishing that the Ancient Egyptians fail to predict all the major events that shook
their civilizations, failed to predict major Earth events... but somehow get "2012"?

They had no way of writing "2012" (before they finally fell under Muslim rule, they numbered years by the name of the ruler and the year of their
reign.) They didn't note the beginning of the "Long Count" or any other Mayan concepts. They didn't even measure the cycles of Venus or the
precession of the equinoxes (which the Mayans did).

I think you could draw lines through any groups of points on the plateau (there are so many) and make your dates to be Y2K, or 1914 (the year the
Jehovah's Witnesses predicted for Armageddon) or 1874 (the year the JW's predicted as The Resurrection) or 1998 (when Cayce predicted the Earth's
poles would flip) or 1524 (when a large number of astrologers predicted a worldwie flood.)

There's no reason for the ancient Egyptians to be concerned about 2012, when a far greater concern to them was the final conquest of Egypt by
Alexander the Great, the conquest of Egypt by Rome following the death of Cleopatra VII, the invasion of the Sea People, the breakdown of Egypt during
the First Intermediate period (200 + years after the building of the main structures of Giza), the Hyksos invasion (capturing Egypt) about a thousand
years after Giza, the fracturing of the Kingdom and the rise of the Nubian kings, the Assyrian invasion... and so forth.

Those are things they would have wanted their people warned about (and droughts and some of the plagues that swept through the area).

The idea that the designers of Giza would ignore important events relating to the land (or global ones like world wars) to encode a prediction
involving a calendar that wouldn't be created for almost 3,000 years (by a civilization that failed to predict its own collapse) -- a flag that would
promote a concept created within the past 40 years doesn't seem to make much sense.

I think Scott's point is that the Guys-who-were-not-Atlanteans somehow knew that date and put that into the dream Imhotep had.

Scott

That is why the lenght of the Lehner line is so important. With a known lenght you can assign the years in known segments and determine if 2012 comes
anywhere close. Considering you have a a fictional line both on a map and on the ground you may have enough wiggle room to get a maybe connection. If
not just jiggle the circa dates....

In one of the links you provided there was an cascade of woo but one piece stood out the guy saying there was a 'Velikovskian School', as in an
organized group of scholars - that Scott is a major howler.

For clairification. What do YOU mean by a polar shift?, Magnetic movement, crustal slippage or the movement of the pole permanently to another
location on earth or the flipping of the poles?

SC: Here is my latest research into the structures at Giza. The presentation below (in Powerpoint format) is self-explanatory.

It seems the Mayan calendar end-date of 2,012 CE is a date also being indicated by the Ancient Egyptians in the structures at Giza:

Byrd: I don't think your evidence supports this, Scott. It would be astonishing that the Ancient Egyptians fail to predict all the major events that
shook their civilizations, failed to predict major Earth events... but somehow get "2012"?

SC: I agree - the ancestors of the AEs that possibly created this design would most likely not have been able to predict the actions of men or the
effects of such actions upon the future of their descendants. But this precession clock is not about predicting the actions of MEN, rather it is more
likely about predicting the actions of cosmic bodies. If they can demonstrate to us at Giza via the placement of the 2 sets of so-called 'Queens
Pyramids', the culminations of the belt stars over some 12,960 years then predicting the return of some other (as yet unknown) stellar body should be
within their capabilities.

Byrd: They had no way of writing "2012" (before they finally fell under Muslim rule, they numbered years by the name of the ruler and the
year of their reign.)

SC: Of course not. That is not what I am saying here. I am saying that if we take the Lehner Line as the half-precession axis of 12,960 years then
year 1 corresponds with the minimum culmination of the belt stars of Orion c.10,460BCE (as depicted by the Menkaure Queens). Now some 760 years after
this stellar culmination event of the belt stars, some major event occurred on the Earth. We can say then that c.760 AOC (After Orion Culmination)
this event took place. Similarly, in the year c.12,472 AOC another event may take place. It so happens that these two dates c.760 AOC & c.12,472 AOC
correspond with c.9,700BCE & c.2,012 CE respectively of the Christian calendar. However, the one true calendar is the apparent precessional motion of
the stars.

Byrd: They didn't note the beginning of the "Long Count" or any other Mayan concepts. They didn't even measure the cycles of Venus or the
precession of the equinoxes (which the Mayans did).

SC: They don't have to measure such. They just need to understand precession which, from the evidence I have uncovered, leads me to conclude that
they did understand such. And when I say 'they' I mean the ancestors of the AEs of the Dynastic Period.

Byrd: I think you could draw lines through any groups of points on the plateau (there are so many) ….

SC: Indeed you could draw such lines. But what is evident to me is that the Great Giza Circle i.e. the theoretical circle that precisely encloses all
the Gizamids within said circle by connecting the three most outer pyramid points of the Giza pyramid field should be taken seriously. Unless, of
course, you happen to consider that the Sphinx somehow magically happens to find itself sitting precisely on the very edge of that (theoretical)
circle is simple happenstance. And to add to all of this, we find the Sphinx is ALSO aligned precisely midway between the 'Lehner Line' (the
precession axis). Coincidence? Not on your life! This is evidence of intentional design.

Now, as stated, the Sphinx (the so-called 'Place of the First Time' - from the Dream Stellae), is quite different from the Pyramids but is somehow
'connected' to them – this is to repeat the fact the Sphinx is aligned precisely midway along the 'Lehner Line'. Also, the Sphinx is carved
from the physical bedrock of the plateau and, therefore, is not easily removed. This is important because as a 'point of origin' for the
intersections across the precession axis (Lehner Line) you want this point to be seen as 'anchored' – the 'anchor point'. Now, if we look at
this intentional (albeit theoretical) circle, we see that there are only TWO POINTS that are beyond the timeline (precession axis) i.e. when we draw a
line to these points from the anchor point (the Sphinx) they will intersect the precession axis at a specific point along the timeline.

So, by using the theoretical circle and the theoretical precession axis in conjunction with an anchor point (the Sphinx), we find that there are not
really a lot of options – only the two points beyond the precession timeline. There may, of course, be others but I contend that these points on
the circle are the most obvious and what was intended.

That the intersection points correspond with a significant past date and (perhaps) a significant future date I find quite remarkable. All the more so
given that the second intersection point of the timeline corresponds with the Mayan date for the end of their Fifth Sun – a date that converts to
the Christian calendar date of c.2,012CE.

Byrd: There's no reason for the ancient Egyptians to be concerned about 2012, when a far greater concern to them was the final conquest of
Egypt by Alexander the Great, the conquest of Egypt by Rome following the death of Cleopatra VII, the invasion of the Sea People, the breakdown of
Egypt during the First Intermediate period (200 + years after the building of the main structures of Giza), the Hyksos invasion (capturing Egypt)
about a thousand years after Giza, the fracturing of the Kingdom and the rise of the Nubian kings, the Assyrian invasion... and so forth.

Those are things they would have wanted their people warned about (and droughts and some of the plagues that swept through the area).

SC: Regardless of what you say, I am merely pointing out here that the Gizamids can be shown to present two significant dates. Is there anything more
to this – I don't know. But the dates ARE there so – as I have said elsewhere in this thread - make of it what you will.

Byrd: The idea that the designers of Giza would ignore important events relating to the land (or global ones like world wars) to encode a
prediction involving a calendar that wouldn't be created for almost 3,000 years (by a civilization that failed to predict its own collapse) -- a flag
that would promote a concept created within the past 40 years doesn't seem to make much sense.

SC: I hope I have explained enough above for you to realise that the AEs (at least their ancestors) did not need the Mayan calendar to come to the
same moment in space and time – a time that is equivalent in the Christian calendat of c.2,012CE. As for predicting future events – our culture
is obsessed with charting and predicting the arrival of infrequent celestial visitors (Halley's Comet and so forth). Our civilisation is presently
charting the imminent arrival of the small red planet, Sedna, to our neighbourhood which, interestingly, has an orbit that corresponds very well with
the duration between the two dates in the precessional axis – some 11,712 years. If our civilisation is interested in such activity, why wouldn't
the ancients have been, especially so when the heavens would have been much more of a mystery to them?

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
But this precession clock is not about predicting the actions of MEN, rather it is more likely about predicting the actions of cosmic bodies.

It's doing a darn poor job of it, Scott. The case being presented is of stars in a 2-dimensional framework when they actually exist in a 3
dimensional space within a time frame.

If they can demonstrate to us at Giza via the placement of the 2 sets of so-called 'Queens Pyramids', the culminations of the belt stars
over some 12,960 years then predicting the return of some other (as yet unknown) stellar body should be within their capabilities.

Like Tungaska? I don't see any evidence there about Tungaska. I do see hopping on a modern notion based on what people are adding to the Mayan
calendar.

And I don't think you understand the scale of "stellar body." Stars aren't points of light -- they're sun-sized objects, the largest of which
are hundreds of times larger than our own sun. One of them heading for us would be hard to miss (unless you were blind) -- in fact, by now it would
be as bright as our own sun. The only way it could "sneak up on us" for 2012 is for it to be equipped with warp drive.

Even brown dwarves are fairly bright objects in the sky. "Black Stars" warp gravity around them, so you get a gravity lensing effect. Every
amateur astronomer (and professional astronomer, and backyard stargazers with binoculars) would have spotted a stellar object in our neighborhood ages
ago.

I am saying that if we take the Lehner Line as the half-precession axis of 12,960 years then year 1 corresponds with the minimum culmination
of the belt stars of Orion c.10,460BCE (as depicted by the Menkaure Queens).

Uhmm... stars don't just "dart" into position. Nor do the number of queens' pyramids match the stars -- one of the stars is a single star, the
second is a double star and Alnitak is a triple star. The idea of a "cumulation" in space does not take into account that they were moving and
still move. The apparant "arrival" of these stars into one configuration as seen from one planet only works if the sky is a flat sheet wrapped
around the globe and stars are just holes poked into that sheet.

Now some 760 years after this s

tellar culmination event of the belt stars, some major event occurred on the Earth. We can say then that
c.760 AOC (After Orion Culmination) this event took place. Similarly, in the year c.12,472 AOC another event may take place. It so happens that
these two dates c.760 AOC & c.12,472 AOC correspond with c.9,700BCE & c.2,012 CE respectively of the Christian calendar. However, the one true
calendar is the apparent precessional motion of the stars.

Uhmmm... the one true calendar is the position of the Earth in its orbit around the sun.

SC: They don't have to measure such. They just need to understand precession which, from the evidence I have uncovered, leads me to conclude
that they did understand such. And when I say 'they' I mean the ancestors of the AEs of the Dynastic Period.

In order to understand precession, you need to be able to accurately measure the stars and planets and their positions and have the ability to predict
where things will be. So this means observatories and a long history of drawings and markers of stars on stones. I've seen some of the ancient rock
art involving stars here in North America (and it's not predictive but it does record the positions of the stars and in several cases has sun markers
showning important days.)

Could you show me where the ancestors of the AE's had accurate observatories?

Unless, of course, you happen to consider that the Sphinx somehow magically happens to find itself sitting precisely on the very edge of that
(theoretical) circle is simple happenstance.

Or related to quarrying.

Now, as stated, the Sphinx (the so-called 'Place of the First Time' - from the Dream Stellae)

Minor correction, here... the Dream Stele does not say that the Sphynx is the "place of the first time" but does indicate that the Giza plateau is.
Furthermore, it says that the Sphynx is the god, Kepher-Ra. It identifies two important goddesses, the "Lady of the South Wall" and the "Lady of
the North wall": ib205.tripod.com...

... is quite different from the Pyramids but is somehow 'connected' to them – this is to repeat the fact the Sphinx is aligned precisely
midway along the 'Lehner Line'. Also, the Sphinx is carved from the physical bedrock of the plateau and, therefore, is not easily removed. This is
important because as a 'point of origin' for the intersections across the precession axis (Lehner Line) you want this point to be seen as
'anchored' – the 'anchor point'. Now, if we look at this intentional (albeit theoretical) circle, we see that there are only TWO POINTS that
are beyond the timeline (precession axis) i.e. when we draw a line to these points from the anchor point (the Sphinx) they will intersect the
precession axis at a specific point along the timeline.

I really think this is a stretch. They had no way of forming an accurate circle that large and there's no indication that they built things on a
circular plan. If you look at Imhotep's original creation fro Djoser, you see that the idea is a pyramid enclosed in walls (as was done for other
pyramids); the resulting space is much smaller than the whole area you define. The walls that have been identified don't seem to be projections or
markers but the remains of longer walls (as implied in the Dream Stele.)

And as others have pointed out, on the ground you can't see where these lines intersect. To assume that the builders at Giza could have kept an
accurate measure over that distance and over variable terrain even before it was quarried to a relatively flat platea seems an awful big stretch.

Our civilisation is presently charting the imminent arrival of the small red planet, Sedna, to our neighbourhood which, interestingly, has an
orbit that corresponds very well with the duration between the two dates in the precessional axis – some 11,712 years.

When did Sedna leave its orbital path and why aren't amateur astronomers everywhere excited about this (since they CAN photograph it with a good
telescope and a very long exposure)? As far as I can tell, it's still 88 AU from the sun: en.wikipedia.org...
-- at least, that's what stargazers everywhere seem to be saying. It's a rather unlikely candidate to be heading sunward since it is classed as a
"detatched object" of the solar system, meaning that its orbit isn't influenced by the gas giants here.
en.wikipedia.org...

Could you point me to some reliable sites that talk about Sedna leaving its orbit?

Didn't really want to interrupt your interesting discussion, just wanted to point out one thing:

Posted by Byrd
In order to understand precession, you need to be able to accurately measure the stars and planets and their positions and have the ability to predict
where things will be. So this means observatories and a long history of drawings and markers of stars on stones. I've seen some of the ancient rock
art involving stars here in North America (and it's not predictive but it does record the positions of the stars and in several cases has sun markers
showning important days.)

Could you show me where the ancestors of the AE's had accurate observatories?

I'm not an expert in astronomy, ancient egypt, archeology or anything in question, but I think Nabta Playa people are interesting in this case
Nabta Playa Wiki

Organized settlements, cattle domestication, one of the first megalithic observatories in 7-5 millenium BC, possible religious/cultural ties to AE,
etc. make them very interesting.

What's more important in this case is that

Research suggests that it may have been a prehistoric calendar which accurately marks the summer solstice.

The research done by the astrophysicist Thomas G. Brophy suggests that these monoliths might tell much more. The calendar circle itself is made up of
one doorway that runs north-south, a second that runs northeast-southwest marking the summer solstice, and six center stones (see sketch above).
Brophy's hypothesis proposes first that the southerly line of three stones inside the calendar circle represented the three stars of Orion’s Belt
and the other three stones inside the calendar circle represented the shoulders and head stars of Orion as they appeared in the sky. These
correspondences were for two dates -- circa 4,800 BC and at precessional opposition -- representing how the sky "moves" long term. Brophy
proposes that the circle was constructed and used circa the later date, and the dual date representation was a conceptual representation of the motion
of the sky over a precession cycle. Near by the calendar circle, which is made of smaller stones, there are alignments of large megalithic stones.
The southerly lines of these megaliths, Brophy shows, aligned to the same stars as represented in the calendar circle, all at the same epoch, circa
6270 BC. The calendar circle correlation with Orion's belt occurred between 6400 BC and 4900 BC, matching the radio-carbon dating of campfires around
the circle.

Brophy found that the lines made to these megaliths match the spots in the sky where the various stars rose in vernal equinox heliacal rising. In
analyzing the varying distances, mulling through assumptions such as that they represented the brightness of the stars, he inadvertently found that
they matched the distance of the stars from Earth on a scale of roughly 1 meter = .8 light years within the margin of error for astronomical distances
calculated today.

Hans: That is why the lenght of the Lehner line is so important. With a known length you can assign the years in known segments and determine
if 2012 comes anywhere close.

SC: No, no, NO! If you know the duration of the line between the min and max culmination of the belt stars (i.e. the precessional timeline axis) that
is ALL you need! If the line is measured in cubits, metres, feets, els or whatever, the date HALFWAY along the line is calculated thus:

10,460 BCE - (12960 / 2) = 3,980 BCE. The UNIT OF MEASURE is irrelevant since we can simply work with fractions.

Hans: For clairification. What do YOU mean by a polar shift?, Magnetic movement, crustal slippage or the movement of the pole permanently to
another location on earth or the flipping of the poles?

SC: No magnetic shift or crustal displacement. The Earth's polar axis will change to another location. It has occurred in the past and there is
little reason why such cannot occur again.

SC: But this precession clock is not about predicting the actions of MEN, rather it is more likely about predicting the actions of cosmic
bodies.

Byrd: It's doing a darn poor job of it, Scott. The case being presented is of stars in a 2-dimensional framework when they actually exist in a 3
dimensional space within a time frame.

SC: This is completely meaningless. How exactly do you present 3-dimensional objects in space on a 2-dimensional plane? Float pyramids in the air?
Is that what you are suggesting? The designers of this scheme have done a pretty darn good job of transposing 3-D space to the 2-D plane of Giza.
The belt stars are presented at minimum culmination via the 3 horizontal Queens Pyramids of Menkaure thereby mimicking the belt stars as the set on
the SW horizon c.10,460BCE. At maximum culmination the stars appear vertical on the eastern horizon i.e. rotated 90* from the horizontal. This is
what we find in the structures at Giza – the Menkaure Queens aligned horizontal
with the Khufu queens rotated 90*.

Indeed, it may even be that the designers of this scheme are in fact indicating the 3-D aspect. Consider the following image from the Giza-Orion
Blueprint:

THREE lines pass through the diagonals of Menkaure's Queens. Only ONE line passes through the Khufu Queens – G3a, the Queen's Pyramid that is
symbolic of Al Nitak. If we consider the three lines in the diagrams above as horizon indicators then this scheme tells us that the three queens of
Menkare are symbolic of the three stars as the stars set on the horizon. The Khufu Queens, on the other hand have only ONE queens pyramid with a
'horizon line' which is to say that only this star sits on the horizon – the implication being that the other pyramids in this 2-D plane should be
viewed as standing above G1a.

In short, it is possible that we are being shown how to view this 2-D plane with a 3-D perspective.

SC: If they can demonstrate to us at Giza via the placement of the 2 sets of so-called 'Queens Pyramids', the culminations of the belt stars
over some 12,960 years then predicting the return of some other (as yet unknown) stellar body should be within their capabilities.

Like Tungaska? I don't see any evidence there about Tungaska. I do see hopping on a modern notion based on what people are adding to the Mayan
calendar.

SC: I don't recall Tungaska 'moving the heavens' (i.e. tilting the Earth). It remains my view that the shafts of the Great Pyramid demonstrate a
6.5* shift of the Earth's polar axis. Such an event would surely have imprinted itself upon the minds of generations. See
here.

SC: When I gaze at the night sky I don't see sun-sized objects – I see points of light. That's most likely also what the ancients saw.

Byrd: ….the largest of which are hundreds of times larger than our own sun. One of them heading for us would be hard to miss (unless you were
blind) -- in fact, by now it would be as bright as our own sun. The only way it could "sneak up on us" for 2012 is for it to be equipped with warp
drive.

SC: Who said anything about an object “as bright as our own sun” that would “...sneak up on us...”? You seem to have the impression that
only a massive object can cause the Earth to alter its polar axis. Not so. A relatively small asteroid can do it. See
here.

Byrd: Even brown dwarves are fairly bright objects in the sky. "Black Stars" warp gravity around them, so you get a gravity lensing effect.
Every amateur astronomer (and professional astronomer, and backyard stargazers with binoculars) would have spotted a stellar object in our
neighborhood ages ago.

SC: But not every asteroid.

SC: I am saying that if we take the Lehner Line as the half-precession axis of 12,960 years then year 1 corresponds with the minimum
culmination of the belt stars of Orion c.10,460BCE (as depicted by the Menkaure Queens).

Byrd: Uhmm... stars don't just "dart" into position. Nor do the number of queens' pyramids match the stars -- one of the stars is a single star,
the second is a double star and Alnitak is a triple star.

SC: Not sure why this is relevant - from the vantage point of the Earth we SEE them as three points of light.

Byrd: The idea of a "cumulation" in space does not take into account that they were moving and still move. The apparant "arrival" of these
stars into one configuration as seen from one planet only works if the sky is a flat sheet wrapped around the globe and stars are just holes poked
into that sheet.

SC: We're not talking about “cumulations” in space. We're talking about “culminations” on the horizon as observed from 30*N latitude of the
Earth. Are you suggesting the AE or their ancestors did not observe the stars as they rose and set on the horizon?

SC: Now some 760 years after this stellar culmination event of the belt stars, some major event occurred on the Earth. We can say then that
c.760 AOC (After Orion Culmination) this event took place. Similarly, in the year c.12,472 AOC another event may take place. It so happens that these
two dates c.760 AOC & c.12,472 AOC correspond with c.9,700BCE & c.2,012 CE respectively of the Christian calendar. However, the one true calendar is
the apparent precessional motion of the stars.

Byrd: Uhmmm... the one true calendar is the position of the Earth in its orbit around the sun.

SC: And if we want to register/record time greater than 1 year? We have to create an arbitrary “line in the sand” e.g. the birth of some deity or
other and keep counting the years. Precession gives us a longer-term natural calendar for the measurement/recording of long periods of time –
12,960 Earth suns.

SC: They don't have to measure such. They just need to understand precession which, from the evidence I have uncovered, leads me to conclude
that they did understand such. And when I say 'they' I mean the ancestors of the AEs of the Dynastic Period.

Byrd: Could you show me where the ancestors of the AE's had accurate observatories?

SC: I think Stonehenge, Newgrange, Nabta Playa all predate the pyramids. Who knows – there may have been many more such megalithic
'observatories' around the Earth that have long since fallen into ruin. All that's needed are two poles in the ground to register an alignment with
a star on the horizon. It's not complicated.

SC: Unless, of course, you happen to consider that the Sphinx somehow magically happens to find itself sitting precisely on the very edge of
that (theoretical) circle is simple happenstance.

Byrd: Or related to quarrying.

SC: The Sphinx was evidently (according to archaeologist, Colin Reader) in place BEFORE the Gizamids. So, you are effectively ensuring not ONE but
THREE structures are placed in a circle relative to the Sphinx and that the centre of the middle structure lies within a fraction of the centre of the
circumscribed circle. This is intentional – completely intentional design.

SC: Now, as stated, the Sphinx (the so-called 'Place of the First Time' - from the Dream Stellae)

Byrd: Minor correction, here... the Dream Stele does not say that the Sphynx is the "place of the first time" but does indicate that the Giza
plateau is.

SC: That's a matter of interpretation. I take the view that the very location of the Dream Stellae i.e. between the paws of the Sphinx is doing what
precisely it says its doing – marking the place of the First Time.

Byrd: Furthermore, it says that the Sphynx is the god, Kepher-Ra. It identifies two important goddesses, the "Lady of the South Wall" and the
"Lady of the North wall":
ib205.tripod.com...

SC: The name “Kepher-Ra” but not in a cartouche. Just curious - why would the writers of this stellae – some thousand years after the reign of
its alleged builder, Khafre – not place the name of the King within a cartouche which was clearly in use by the reign of Khafre?

SC: ... is quite different from the Pyramids but is somehow 'connected' to them – this is to repeat the fact the Sphinx is aligned
precisely midway along the 'Lehner Line'. Also, the Sphinx is carved from the physical bedrock of the plateau and, therefore, is not easily removed.
This is important because as a 'point of origin' for the intersections across the precession axis (Lehner Line) you want this point to be seen as
'anchored' – the 'anchor point'. Now, if we look at this intentional (albeit theoretical) circle, we see that there are only TWO POINTS that are
beyond the timeline (precession axis) i.e. when we draw a line to these points from the anchor point (the Sphinx) they will intersect the precession
axis at a specific point along the timeline.

Byrd: I really think this is a stretch. They had no way of forming an accurate circle that large and there's no indication that they built things on
a circular plan. If you look at Imhotep's original creation fro Djoser, you see that the idea is a pyramid enclosed in walls (as was done for other
pyramids); the resulting space is much smaller than the whole area you define. The walls that have been identified don't seem to be projections or
markers but the remains of longer walls (as implied in the Dream Stele.)

SC: The AEs of the 4th Dynasty implemented a plan. They scaled-up a plan using a center line or grid method. It's really not that difficult and you
do not require line of sight for the entire plateau. It has been shown that such simple methods could have worked to create the Nazca lines. No big
shakes here.

Byrd: And as others have pointed out, on the ground you can't see where these lines intersect. To assume that the builders at Giza could have
kept an accurate measure over that distance and over variable terrain even before it was quarried to a relatively flat platea seems an awful big
stretch.

SC: See above. And it is also very self evident via the various structures (10 points in all) that are placed along the Lehner Line that the builders
could indeed do what you are saying was not possible.

SC: Our civilisation is presently charting the imminent arrival of the small red planet, Sedna, to our neighbourhood which, interestingly, has
an orbit that corresponds very well with the duration between the two dates in the precessional axis – some 11,712 years.

Byrd: When did Sedna leave its orbital path and why aren't amateur astronomers everywhere excited about this (since they CAN photograph it with a
good telescope and a very long exposure)? As far as I can tell, it's still 88 AU from the sun: en.wikipedia.org...
-- at least, that's what stargazers everywhere seem to be saying. It's a rather unlikely candidate to be heading sunward since it is classed as a
"detatched object" of the solar system, meaning that its orbit isn't influenced by the gas giants here. en.wikipedia.org...

Could you point me to some reliable sites that talk about Sedna leaving its orbit?

SC: Offered only as an example to show how little we know of 'what's out there'. Sedna was discovered only 7 years ago! What else might we have
missed?

Let me just finish here by reiterating that I have no idea why these particular dates can be found along the precessional timeline. I am confident,
however, that Giza DOES represent an 'astronomical clock' that utilises precessiomnal motion as its timing mechanism. There is no doubt in my mind
about this. I think it is also obvious to everyone reading this that the two dates presented (c.9,700BCE & c.2,012CE) are 'notable' dates. Is it
all just one big coinicidence?

Very close - the answer I have is 6,959 BCE. But I think I see how you obtained your answer - you may have measured the line from the two 'inside
points of the Queens Pyramids rather than the end points (i.e. the most extreme points) of the line. By so doing I would hve obtained your date.

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
SC: This is completely meaningless. How exactly do you present 3-dimensional objects in space on a 2-dimensional plane? Float pyramids in the air?
Is that what you are suggesting? The designers of this scheme have done a pretty darn good job of transposing 3-D space to the 2-D plane of
Giza.

They got it backwards, and they didn't put in the other stars. And you have to manipulate the photo a bit to get the stars in the right spot... and
it's only for current conditions. We can do a better job with modern star maps -- so if you're postulating this iss an "ancient designer" and
that they were far more sophisticated than us, you have to show that their design is better.

For instance, that the apexes of the pyramids also show the relative positions in 3-D space (they don't.)

The belt stars are presented at minimum culmination via the 3 horizontal Queens Pyramids of Menkaure

...but they don't match up to the alignment of the stars.

If we consider the three lines in the diagrams above as horizon indicators then this scheme tells us that the three queens of Menkare are
symbolic of the three stars as the stars set on the horizon.

They actually don't appear to be part of his pyramid complex. The wall which surrounds his pyramid does not contain those (I'm talking about the
ancient wall and the wall-temple-pyramid design first constructed under Imhotep; the design that appears to be followed in many pyramids constructed
after the one he built for Djoser.)

They are, however, within the burial ground that contained members of his court and his family.

SC: I don't recall Tungaska 'moving the heavens' (i.e. tilting the Earth). It remains my view that the shafts of the Great Pyramid
demonstrate a 6.5* shift of the Earth's polar axis. Such an event would surely have imprinted itself upon the minds of generations.

Do you have any evidence to support this other than "it remains my view"? Are we talking sudden shift? Gradual shift? It sounds like you're
talking a "sudden shift"... but I'm not sure that you have correctly calculated the physics of such a shift.

SC: When I gaze at the night sky I don't see sun-sized objects – I see points of light. That's most likely also what the ancients saw.

In that section you were talking about "stellar bodies" (i.e., stars) near or in the solar system and not about what the ancients were seeing. A
star of any sort near our solar system would have rapidly ripped the place to shreds. So... I don't think you understand the scale of "stellar
bodies."

Byrd: ….the largest of which are hundreds of times larger than our own sun. One of them heading for us would be hard to miss (unless
you were blind) -- in fact, by now it would be as bright as our own sun. The only way it could "sneak up on us" for 2012 is for it to be equipped
with warp drive.

SC: Who said anything about an object “as bright as our own sun” that would “...sneak up on us...”? You seem to have the impression that
only a massive object can cause the Earth to alter its polar axis. Not so. A relatively small asteroid can do it.

You were referring to "stellar bodies" in that section of the discussion, Scott. Any "stellar body" (sun) is a bright shining object. And the
impact of an object on a moving object is to change the direction of the object. While massive earthquakes can affect the tilt of the Earth very
slightly, anything that moves it a full six degrees is going to leave a lot of geological evidence.

SC: We're not talking about “cumulations” in space. We're talking about “culminations” on the horizon as observed from 30*N latitude
of the Earth.

How did they know it was a culmination of anything? That implies a long period of observation.

SC: And if we want to register/record time greater than 1 year? We have to create an arbitrary “line in the sand” e.g. the birth of some
deity or other and keep counting the years. Precession gives us a longer-term natural calendar for the measurement/recording of long periods of time
– 12,960 Earth suns.

Byrd: Could you show me where the ancestors of the AE's had accurate observatories?

SC: I think Stonehenge, Newgrange, Nabta Playa all predate the pyramids. Who knows – there may have been many more such megalithic
'observatories' around the Earth that have long since fallen into ruin. All that's needed are two poles in the ground to register an alignment with
a star on the horizon. It's not complicated.

That would be "no (and not by Egyptians)", "yes but not by Egyptians", and "yes, but you can't determine precession from it." They're not
accurate observatories by Egyptian ancestors.

SC: The Sphinx was evidently (according to archaeologist, Colin Reader) in place BEFORE the Gizamids.

I'd trust him to know how to find out the composition of sediments and geologic layers, but his understanding of the culture and times is apparently
as good as my understanding of Tensor Analysis. And frankly, you shouldn't come to me if you want any scalars analyzed in a deep and meaningful way.

Hans: so you have fallen for my clever trap have you, muhahaha, so Scot you agree then. What it is measured in is immaterial. Therefore the length of
the line is also immaterial...correct? ....we'll come back to that.

SC: The Earth's polar axis will change to another location. It has occurred in the past and there is little reason why such cannot occur again.

Hans: So if that doesn't happen on 2012 does that mean your idea is falsified - or that you just need to move the goal posts a bit more? Predicting
something that will happen at some point in the future is terrible predictive? Kinda of a waste of time.

So lets say the guys-who-aren't-Atlanteans want to send (for whatever reason) a message to the future. What would work better. Sent a single "hard
copy" plan that requires massive building thousands of years after the hard copy is produced - in a society that doesn't even exist yet - you just
hope it will develop that capacity to built.

You also hope they will built it, not screw it up and that in thousands of years until somebody smart enough comes along who can see its AND hope that
nature or man doesn't take out some critical part of it? Would you say that was the plan?

Why not use pottery, and make zillions of them and spread them across the entire planet, place them on top of inaccessible mountains, place them with
radioactives so they will be detected, put them everywhere. Have on it a representation of the start and stop date and the line with an indication of
what will happen. Take a look Scot at the type of detail you can be put into pottery. A lot easier than your idea don't you think? Virtually
impossible to destroy all of them and the point of the exercise is shown in full color.

Now you can hand wave it away.. LOL

Ah I see Madam Byrd posted at the same time, so I'm deleting some of the same materials

There is no doubt in my mind about this.

Yet again we remind you that is of no importance. Except for publicly stating, once again, that your mind is closed to any evidence against your
idea.

SC: Now, as stated, the Sphinx (the so-called 'Place of the First Time' - from the Dream Stellae)

Byrd: Minor correction, here... the Dream Stele does not say that the Sphynx is the "place of the first time" but does indicate that the Giza
plateau is.

SC: That's a matter of interpretation. I take the view that the very location of the Dream Stellae i.e. between the paws of the Sphinx is doing what
precisely it says its doing – marking the place of the First Time.

Scott, it's not interpretation. If you can read the stelae, it very CLEARLY says that the Giza plateau is the "place of the first time." Not the
sphynx.

SC: The name “Kepher-Ra” but not in a cartouche. Just curious - why would the writers of this stellae – some thousand years after the reign of
its alleged builder, Khafre – not place the name of the King within a cartouche which was clearly in use by the reign of Khafre?

Kepher-ra is a god, not a pharaoh. Pharaoh's names were put in cartouches during the time of Sneferu and replaced the earlier serekh (god house.)
The names of gods are followed by a determinative sign that means 'god' (and often preceeded by a sign indicating a standard or flag.) If you look
at a picture of the stelae, the king's name is in the cartouche.

(reading right to left we have the Golden Horus name (that I can't make out), "nesu-bity" (king of upper and lower Egypt) followed by the year of
his reign and Menkepherure (his throne name) Thutmose (nomen), both in cartouches)

The god's name is on the second line, preceeded by the designator for "male deity"... very badly worn but can be seen here if you know what you're
looking at: heartofthebear.com...&CC.JPG

SC: The AEs of the 4th Dynasty implemented a plan. They scaled-up a plan using a center line or grid method. It's really not that difficult
and you do not require line of sight for the entire plateau. It has been shown that such simple methods could have worked to create the Nazca lines.
No big shakes here.

Except that a) you have to be able to make accurate maps and b) the Nazca lines are all line of sight (very flat area.)

SC: Our civilisation is presently charting the imminent arrival of the small red planet, Sedna, to our neighbourhood which,
interestingly, has an orbit that corresponds very well with the duration between the two dates in the precessional axis – some 11,712 years.

SC: Offered only as an example to show how little we know of 'what's out there'. Sedna was discovered only 7 years ago! What else might we have
missed?

Uhmmm... no. You didn't offer it as that. You stated that Sedna is coming to our section of the solar system in 2012 and indicated it was related
to your diagrams.

I think it is also obvious to everyone reading this that the two dates presented (c.9,700BCE & c.2,012CE) are 'notable' dates. Is it all
just one big coinicidence?

I sincerely hope so.

It is. Sedna isn't coming towards Earth. The Mayans had no specific predictions about 2012 and in fact wrote about dates before the beginning of
this count and long after this count. And if you have enough points to choose from, you can derive almost anything. We could amuse ourselves finding
similar patterns in birds feeding on the ground.

But beliefs leave traces within any literate civilization. The Egyptians had no long-term prophecies and their oracles were concerned only about that
which occurred during an individual's lifetime. There are other civilizations and groups with "this will happen in the future" prophecies (like
Nostradamus and others of his time) but they leave distinct cultural signs that this is a belief of theirs.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Why not use pottery, and make zillions of them and spread them across the entire planet, place them on top of inaccessible mountains, place them with
radioactives so they will be detected, put them everywhere. Have on it a representation of the start and stop date and the line with an indication of
what will happen.

Pottery and inscriptions are an excellent suggestion -- and are indeed the way that civilizations with "predictions for the future" preserved their
predictions. Mythology is also an excellent method of transmitting this in a non-literate culture.

The best example I can think of with this is Nordic mythology and the legends of Ragnarok. It doesn't fit 2012, mind you, but it does record their
beliefs about a future.

We might you a ceramic today-but as we (obviously) don't know what technology limits we're assigning to the mysterious guys-who-aren't-Atlantean.
I'd go with pottery with a detailed visual discription sealed behind a nice glaze.

But then that's me.

Those guys went for a 1 in 320,000,000 shot that their kindred would do exactly what they told them to do, they'd do it right and no one - a dude
looking for cut stone - or nature came along and did away with it.

As you said the zillions of pottery pieces would have worked themselves into the culture and you'd probably see what pattern in their art, literature
and maybe architecture.

Edited to add

Man I forgot, since we're making this stuff up. I know make up that the Guys-who-weren't-Atlanteans also had a space travel capacity so they could
have left a few zillion on the moon too. LOL

I am giving you information that you all need to hear whether you want to believe it or not. In 2011 a catastrophic event will occur changing life on
planet earth as we know it. I am a witness to these events and know 100% that what I am saying is true. Do not take my word for it alone, there is
overwhelming amounts of evidence for this and (high level) of governments know about it and have been long preparing for it. We have various
government documents and eye witness testimonies along with much evidence/facts about this event.

If you don't have time to read the ATS thread or are looking for hard evidence/facts with proof on many levels of this incoming brown dwarf called
"Wormwood" then please visit these sites that are setup to give you more information. Everything will be provided in due time all that you need to
know about this event including survival and safety zone areas!
We are non-profit organization only donating our time to get this information out to the general public.

The message is not about fear but about being prepared spiritually/physically. Spiritually being the most important because whether you die from this
cyclic event or not you will still die eventually one way or another. Being prepared spiritually for death is the wisest thing to do, be prepared for
all things.

I sincerely wish you and your families the best!
I have given you this message for your own benefit/welfare.
You can hate me for telling you about things to come that I'm sure nobody wants to hear about or you can consider that what I am telling you is the
truth and look at the evidence/facts for yourself. This information could save your lives or help you make it through hard times whether in this
lifetime or the next.

ET_MAN

p.s. I would like to add that 2012 was forseen as a transformation period as there will be a raise in higher consciousness/awareness as there always
has been upon wormwood’s pass which is a cyclic event, all things in this universe are continually progressing/upgrading/evolving as we see it from
human perspective/perception. What was forseen to take place was the spiritual transformation to higher awareness and consciousness in 2012 not the
catastrophic events that lead up to that date that happen before it in October of 2011.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Why not use pottery, and make zillions of them and spread them across the entire planet, place them on top of inaccessible mountains, place them with
radioactives so they will be detected, put them everywhere. Have on it a representation of the start and stop date and the line with an indication of
what will happen.

Hans,

I asked earlier in this thread exactly what was being "corroborated" here, and received no answer.

Of course, nothing at all is being "corroborated" here (other than several already-formed opinions of SC's "work.")

At any rate, having read your idea that "they" should have used pottery, I just want to say, why should "they" have used anything at all?

If, as Chicken Little - oops, I mean Scott - claims, the poles are about to move, and if, as he says, the Earth will "roll over" (IOW,he ain't
talkin bout no magnetic swap,) then what hope is there?

Did They Who Are Not Atlanteans encode this information at Giza just to mock us? Exactly what did THEY think we would do about it, hide in caves -
soon to be underwater?

Please. The best thing They Who Are Not Atlanteans could have done regarding this supposed "stellar body" coming to flip the Earth would have been
to take their space ships out there and blow that sucker away before it could get here and kill us all.

So, I maintain that this is absolutely what they did. Then they encoded the info at Giza so they would someday get the credit. Lord knows they
couldn't have let us credit any religious figures with our salvation - the Non-Atlanteans were apparently quite adamant in their need for
validation.

Please note, this idea of mine dovetails quite nicely with Scott's "work" and the "work" of others in that it requires no world-changing event to
occur in Dec. of 2012. In fact, according to my theory, if nothing happens in Dec. 2012, that proves that the Non-Atlanteans must have
done precisely what I just postulated.

Wraps it all up quite nicely, doesn't it?

Scott, if you want this, you'll have to pay for licensing as I am copyrighting this idea as I'm posting this.

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