What? How did this happen?

Wendt’s aunt Clara, who spent years praying for her nephew, remained steadfast in her insistence that Jesus most likely had something to do with it.

Is this the same Jesus that made water into wine, has a father in the sky who sees everything I do, and will send me to hell if I am bad? Screw that, i’m going to AA so that I can get a Jesus who will get me special privledges down at the alano club.

Sally

News ALERT…Breaking News!

“Man Cures Self from Catastrophic Brain Disease”, admits addiction specialist Dr. Ida Justdeid, as she scratches her head and shrugs her shoulders in obvious confusion.

For either your amusement or disgust, here are some comments mined from Facebook, when I checked out the Onion piece earlier today. Being an actual Chicagoan with around three months off alcohol, this story was especially delicious.

The good:>/b>Because Jesus has nothing better to do than help kanye west win awards and help ppl with addictive personalities realize “holy shit, I have an addictive personality”.

If you think alcoholism or homosexuality are diseases, try calling in sick drunk and gay.

The bad:I’m a recovering alcoholic and not once have I seen Jesus at one of my AA meetings. Dick.

lotsa misinformation in these comments. AA does not ‘promote’ Jesus. Plenty of atheists and folks of EVERY religion are sober because of the program.

The ugly (did they think it was USA Today?)‎3 Month is nothing. Lets see where he is at in a year.

Wow. Three whole months sober…. on willpower and self-examination alone! Why is this newsworthy? Let’s hear how he’s doing in a year or so…

SoberPJ

It’s interesting how today is all we have, but if somebody isn’t sober today by using AA, then it’s all about where they are going to be in the future. “Sure, he made it 3 months without a higher power or a program, but let’s see where he is in a year ! “

@SoberPJ: Yep. It’s a classic case of appeal to authority, where the comment post assumes heightened personal wisdom and knowledge of that scurvy swag King Alcohol…. i.e. “Oh yeah, I’ve been around a while, seen it all, pretty much know everything (though my false humility says otherwise).”

SoberPJ

Right, and they NEVER congratulate the guy for being sober today.

mcgowdog

You don’t want to pray to Jesus for sobriety. He is a drinker.

You want to pray to his Dad.

His dad will not cast you nor anybody into hell. God does not punish… not anymore.

Life is like school and the lesson is Love. God only knows Love and Love heals.

God gave us free will, but that’s in itself a paradox. You don’t seem to have free will with a gun pointed in the back of your head. Nor is your will so free… when you’re expected to submit it back to God.

If you stand equidistant between evil and good, then at that moment that you chose one or the other, may you exercise your free will.

God had to make us in His own image… so we had to have the free will. When we punish ourselves, God grieves. But such is the nature of life.

God is a spirit… and therefore beyond drunken behavior. Praying to God or to Jesus to make us not drink would be to have our free will taken away. That don’t work. Doing the steps gets us to a state of consciousness to where God can better see and hear us and our prayers and meditations make more sense… we can sense the Power that we needed all along and sought in the booze.

But I’m sure this crap is boring y’all. Have a nice morning.

MA

McGowdog – My understanding is that God and Jesus are the same guy, so it really doesn’t matter which one you pray to.

Andy M

McGowdog
I don’t usually respond to your posts, because I don’t want to join in the popular (nay almost mandatory) game of stepper-baiting, which I personally find pointless and counter-productive. I mean I hope and trust that there’s a life beyond vituperative apostasy, whether with reference to past experience of aa, the catholic church, institutional Christianity or any other dogmatic system.
You raise an interesting point here though, which I think is worth responding to. When the man in sandals instructed his disciples on how to pray he told them very clearly to address his Dad.
I’d also like to point out here that the Our Father was very rarely used at any of the UK meetings I attended. With the exception of the American Church in Tottenham Court Road in central London, the aa version of the serenity prayer was the only prayer I ever heard at meetings. In this respect, aa is probably more dechristianised in Britain than it is in the USA.
PS if the Dick quoted above is Dick B it’s another of the many examples of him wanting to have his cake and eat it.

Andy M

Then again, of course, he’s not the only Dick in aa.

MikeAugustine

@andy, the serenity prayer is also a christian prayer. The second stanza clearly makes reference to jesus.

Andy M

Yes, that would be true of some versions of Reinhold Niebuhr’s serenity prayer, but the version I always heard was deliberately bowdlerised to leave out any Christian reference.
Personally, I prefer the following from a 17th century “Mother Goose” nursery rhyme anthology:

For every ailment under the sun There is a remedy, or there is none; If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it.

“Praying to God or to Jesus to make us not drink would be to have our free will taken away. That don’t work. Doing the steps gets us to a state of consciousness to where God can better see and hear us and our prayers and meditations make more sense… ”

So we don’t want to pray to god because it would take our free will away? Instead you should chant the 12 commandments of an adulterous unemployable alcoholic so you can become Spiritual and tell everyone that you have found your “Higher Power” because you don’t want to use his real name because he is anonymous just like Bill Wilson fore told in the scripture of the Big Book and 12X12.

No wonder they like to hide in Church Basements all over the world! Are these the 12 Steps to heaven, or are they the 12 Steps to hell. The bible, which wasn’t written by Bill Wilson and has been around for over 2000 years does warn about false prophets. Think about that the next time you are in Church and see a picture of Bill Wilson or his 12 Commandments hanging up. Don’t worry, by promoting Bill Wilson as a cure for addiction, you are just opening the door for other false prophets to put their pictures on the basement walls of churches. L. Ron Hubbard will be there soon.

SoberPJ

McGowdog.. sorry dude, but if you believe all that drivel, then you are clearly delusional and just plain nuts. Nice try though. So where is ” gawd is everything or he is nothing, what is our choice to be?” If it is everything, then it is everything. You do know what “everything” means, right? Or, was that part just the ravings of a lunatic?

MikeAugustine

@andy, I’m tempted to go to a meeting tonight, ask to share, then close with the mother goose rhyme. Should go over well, considering how the program is so open minded. Lol

ikeaboy

You know that the Onion makes up all the “news” they print, right?

Sally

Thanks for the tip ikeaboy. All will be revealed right?

MikeAugustine

Come, come, ikeaboy. The next thing you’ll be telling me is that the bible isn’t true.

You know that Bill Wilson thought up the Big Book after going on a Belladonna trip, right?

If its not in the Big Book, it can’t be true. My Sponsor told me so.

MA

So is ikeaboy saying that Jesus really did help this guy get sober? I’m confused.

SoberPJ

no, no, no .. It’s a total reverse parody… his belief in Jesus is making the guy stay drunk …

flannigan

@mcgowdog
I wonder how you got to know so much about the nature of “God”? Inside information?
Seriously, nice to see that you are so religious. The free will rap needs a little tightening up.

flannigan

@MA
Do I have to explain the theological concept of the “Trinity” to you? Good, because I can’t (and nobody can with a straight face).

Andy M

I don’t think there’s very much biblical basis for the doctrine of the trinity, though the catholics (and some protestants) have been arguing pretty unconvincingly that there is. Speedy might know the answer to this one.

Andy M

Arguing for centuries.

mcgowdog

MA, yeah, holy trinity… JR, I have a job, and Sober PJ,

God is everything or He is nothing. What is your choice to be?

If God is everything, we’ve got nothing to worry about.

If God is nothing, the struggle is over and we’ve got nothing to worry about.

The more I learn about religion, the more I realize what a good lawyer our Creator had. I’ll refrain from making a joke about that lawyer’s ethnicity… due to my apparent spiritual growth and y’alls intolerance and childish persecution.

Well, better duck out now… lest I drop some precious pearls around.

Have a nice Friday and weekend!

Brianjcas

Pretty much positive I am in the minority here. And I’m prepared to now get ganged up on. So be it! AA has actually worked for me (blasphemy on this blog to say I know) and I have read on this site that “take what you want and leave the rest” is a “bullshit slogan”. I didn’t see anything posted as to WHY it was a bullshit slogan, just saw it said here a few times. So I guess I am going to ask that question! What’s “bullshit” about take what you want and leave the rest? And for what it’s worth, I’m not new to this blog. I have been on here reading what’s been written for some time now.

MA

…and I have read on this site that “take what you want and leave the rest” is a “bullshit slogan”. I didn’t see anything posted as to WHY it was a bullshit slogan, just saw it said here a few times.

mcgowdog – What does having a job have to do with anything? I am glad you are happy about it. Do you ever volunteer for AA service work, or a Church, or Civic Duty? They don’t get paid for it you know?

Think of all the money you would have made over the years if you hadn’t been doing free work to promote a book by an adulterer and alcoholic Bill Wilson. If you only volunteered 5 hours a week for the last 5 years that would be 1300 manhours that you didn’t get paid for. Do you realize how much money that would be if you were making these corporate AA salaries?

At Donald Meurer’s pay scale that would be an extra $287,820. One other thing you should realize, if I or you were to photocopy the Bible and hand it out to people for free to help people, we wouldn’t get sued for it. Unlike the corporations an corporate salaries that corporate AA make who do it to their members.

Rick

Brianjcas, Just because you “leave the rest” doesn’t make it disappear. I lasted for twelve years by “taking what I needed” while “the rest” that I ignored was indeed harming others. Certainly part of “the rest” that I learned to ignore was the abusive way that newcomers are often treated. At one of the last meetings I attended, I watched a local guru humiliate an obviously unstable young man to tears because of his alleged inability to “get” the program. That made me realize how many others I had watched receive the same treatment over the years. On other occasions, I found myself watching old-timers lie through their teeth about relapses when many people in the rooms knew exactly what was happening. Again, that made me realize how many times I had watched that same dishonest routine without realizing it was part of “the rest” I turned a blind eye to.
Taking what you need and leaving the rest is a tool for suppressing cognitive dissonance, but it doesn’t last forever. It allowed me to ignore certain things for years, but once I realized the extent of the lies and the abuse I was supporting, I had no choice but to leave.

Brianjcas

JR – I am not challenging you, I am curious where you got the above figures from?

Brianjcas,
I got this information from 2009 Internal Revenue Tax Form 990 signed by Donald Meurer for the corporation legally described as:

THE GENERAL SERVICE BOARD OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC. SERVES AS THE CUSTODIAN OF A.A. TRADITIONS AND FUNDS. IT ACTS FOR THE SOCIETY IN MATTERS OF NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL SCOPE TO FURTHER THE PURPOSE OF THE MOVEMENT, WHICH IS THE REHABILITATION OF PERSONS SUFFERING FROM ALCOHOLISM AND ITS ATTENDANT PROBLEMS.

“Once that person is safely in the fold, however, things begin to change. The pressure begins to build, and any questioning of the dogma is rebuked with other trite slogans, such as – “take the cotton out of your ears, and put it in your mouth” or “God gave you two ears and one mouth.” In other words shut the hell up and let us tell you how it works. Then other, contradictory slogans are used on the person in order to force the steps”

Simply not true in my opinion! This is taking words and slogans often said within AA and putting a spin on them to create propaganda. Almost sounds somewhat hypocritical after alot of what I have read about AA on this blog.

MA

Well, Brian, I’m not going to debate you about it. You asked a question, and I responded.

If you are happy in AA, you really aren’t part of our target audience here. Not that you aren’t welcome to comment, but I’m a little burned out arguing with steppers. You’ll no doubt get others taking the bait, so have at it. And welcome!

SoberPJ

Brian, you must be new in AA. It takes a while for most people to catch on to the absurdity, deceit, manipulation and faith-healing non sense. Keep coming back, you’ll see it if you look…

Brianjcas

Guess that depends on what your definition of “new” is? I wouldn’t consider myself new.

I wasn’t looking for a debate. I asked a question, got an answer (which was an opinion) and I then stated my opinion. I’m sorry it didn’t allign with yours MA.

SoberPJ

McGowdog .. imo .. you don’t have any pearls to drop or cast. Your simplistic and sophomoric view of the world has zero value to me. Pick up your entitled, white, lower middle class brilliant ass and plop it in the middle of a starving refugee camp in Somalia or Ethiopia and see how far your cherished philosophies get you.

Look at these images and get back to me about where your “God only knows love” entity is hanging out these days .. http://tinyurl.com/44w59x7

Yer an AA moron and starting to piss me off. “He doesn’t punish … not anymore” … fool. If starving to death isn’t punishment, then what is? Having your child die in your arms is probably the most tragic thing a parent can suffer, so, be sure to let me know the loving gawd’s lesson in that one. Especially when it happens thousands of times a day. I want your sorry ass to walk up to someone that is breathing their last few breaths in excruciating pain and tell them, ” gawd didn’t bring you this far just to drop you.” The world isn’t just your intellectually inbred little block of delusion. It is a big place sonny, with lots of things going on that don’t fit into the well-fed white person’s view of the world.

causeandeffect

Brian, perhaps you’ve never put it to the test. Try this: go to a meeting and say “I’ve come to the conclusion that the steps won’t get you sober, keep you sober, or make you a better person. I’m just taking what I want and leaving the rest.”

Don’t forget to take notes and report back.

tully

I’m an ex stepper,the hypocrisy and deceit was what drove me out of the cult, i could never stay sober in a room full of devil worshipping sheeple,i got sober after leaving the cult, i’m sober coming up 4 years now, no steps no recovery groups, i just used the free will that God bestowed on me 🙂

Brianjcas – we are not prospects for Alcoholics Anonymous and have left or in the process of leaving them for a reason. Jails and Institutions have many “prospects” for AA members to choose from. If they don’t know how to get access to these “prospects” they can usually ask any Intergroup member and they will gleefully tell you where to find more possibles for the Bill Wilson faith. They may even find some that want to join AA because they find it helpful.

This is a tough group of prospects and they call bullshit very easily without having to worry about a bunch of crazed slogan spouters going to their friends, family, clergy, doctors and even police in an attempt to force the chanting of 12 little perverted steps devised by a wet brained alcoholic adulterer named Bill Wilson. Wouldn’t you rather go to jails and prisons to talk rapists, murderers, embezzlers and violent criminals into joining your fellowship outside of churches and neighborhoods smoking cigarettes, swearing and telling horror stories to bring spirituality and lowered housing values to these areas?

Brianjcas

Perhaps! I imagine I will hear alot of “keep coming back” but that’s to one extreme to go and take that approach. I posed my question because this thread had to do with getting sober with or without the help of Jesus. Or call it whatever you want, religion, faith, God, higher power, whatever you choose. I am not new to the fellowship. I am also not a hard core “stepper” as I am already being labeled. Certain AA things have helped me A LOT while other things not so much. So it’s pretty simpe what I did (and it didn’t take rocket science to figure this out) I took the tools that helped me and I left the rest.

Steppism is a progressive disease. Taking a que from Al-Anon sometimes you have to make sure you don’t enable any fledgling Stepper or it could lead to jails, institutions or death to one of the prospects that AA members try to make use a program that doesn’t work for them. You should look for the similarities not the differences in the Anti-12 Step movement.

SoberPJ

Rock on Tully !

MA

Hey, Brian. Who labeled you a hardcore stepper?

Sally

Brian,

Many of the slogans you are talking about, that are twisted and “spinned” to create propaganda here at ST (as you put it) is exactly what happens in AA meetings. “Harmless” little slogans are created in AA, and people are encouraged to chant them when the think they know the meaning only to be told/shown it has a different definition in the rooms.

Andy M

Brianjcas
I suppose I could say that in a sense aa “worked” for me for a time, but only because it was a place to go when I was feeling desperate, sick, low and lonely. It was a place to socialise and get moral support in staying off booze and drugs when I was hitting both too hard and was convinced I needed to hit it on the head. But the dogma and pseudo-science of the program just got in the way and was a barrier to understanding the real reasons why I was drinking and using problematically. I did make some friends, but only really amongst others who were “not real alcoholics” in aa’s terms ( I seriously wonder whether anybody really is) but were other nutcases like myself who were drinking and/or using to medicate their underlying mental and emotional problems I found the “spirituality” of aa and it’s evasive and euphemistic insistence on the need to find God insulting and intrusive as well as badly and dishonestly presented. I already had firm convictions on that subject, but to say so as someone who didn’t attribute their spiritual enlightenment to aa would only invite disparagement.

mcgowdog

JR, sorry, I thought I was the adulterous unemployable alky… my bad.

SoberPJ. Fuck you bitch. I don’t need your drama nor your insults. I don’t come in here much, so no sweat of your ass. I was responding to your question about God is everything or God is nothing.

I could personally care less about the plight of Africa. God didn’t start and wars so why should He intervene? The exploitation of a race by a bunch of folks from European and other countries is of no concern to me. I don’t do drugs, so I’m not part of the exploitation of some of these folks. I’m a grateful American and I’m plenty proud of my white ass. Take your white guilt and stick it straight up your brown eye punk.

Keep flexing them keyboard muscles though big mouth.

Have a nice night.

Sally

That’s what I love about ST. So cozy and friendly here.

mcgowdog

Sorry Sally, I’ve been grouchy today. I saw my dad get ripped off at a small town auto shop today and I’ve been upset.

There are many societies today that live in squalor and barely exist. They live with apathy and have no hope that tomorrow will be any better than today.

Whether I’m white, middle class, lower middle class or whatever is way off base for the levity of the thread right here.

If anybody wants to know why God does this or that and doesn’t do this or that, ask and find out for yourself.

It’s human fuckery that’s a big cause for some of this suffering. It’s their own government and greed that is the cause of much of this.

It’s sad and God grieves with us.

But to see some poster in here that knows I’m outnumbered here and to nip at my heels like a little chihuahua… trying to get under my skin… it’s just childish.

mcgowdog – I actually like reading your posts most of the time and watching the changes you have been going through, you have actually been bringing up good subjects on your blog lately and it does appear that they are being discussed with an open mind.. I think we have all been going through changes as this blog as well as others and AA mature. The power and speed of the internet is changing us all for good or bad, I am not sure. I think the main way to bring about change is to discuss it with an open mind, which you have been doing lately. We all have problems in our home, family and work life which creep up in our posts from time to time.

SoberPJ

Yeah, I can’t blame someone for not being able to see the truth of their delusions. In high school, we hypnotized a few people and told them there was no one in the room, when in reality, the room was full of people. I learned about the power of the mind and the power of suggestion. People simply can’t see, what they can’t see. Belonging to a group where people can make shit up and believe whatever they want and as long as the words gawd and love are in close proximity, everyone smiles and nods which reinforces even non sensical beliefs. Then, when those delusional beliefs are challenged by the reality of the world, well, we have a pretty good example of what happens right here on this thread, now don’t we.

brianjcas

Andy M – Thanks! Sounds like you took what you wanted and left the rest. Exactly as I do. What a concept. Maybe not such a “bullshit” slogan after all. That is all I was getting at.

MA

Brian, you never did say who here labeled you a hardcore stepper. Who did that?

brianjcas

I wasn’t label hard core, wrong coice of words. However it was you who pressumed I was a stepper simply because I asked for an explanation to something I have read on here and then simply disagreed with your opinion.

MA

I didn’t presume you were a stepper because you asked a question. You said were in AA.

brianjcas

Correct, I am in AA. I thought my stance on AA was inferred by the theme of my messages – “Take what you want and leave the rest” so it was rather presumptuous of you to label me a stepper. Unless that’s just the term you use for anyone associated with AA whatsoever. But that would be kind of silly so I will assume that’s not the case.

MA

Yes, I refer to anyone who utilizes a step program as a stepper. There are too many brands of AA crazy to individualize. Perhaps you could share yours with us. I find the new age hippie AAs – the “take what you want and leave the rest” sub-group – the most interesting. The back-to-basics crowd is just too bland.

brianjcas

I thought I already did. It’s not rocket science. I take from AA what works for me and I leave the rest. I’m not sure how else to explain it. It’s really extremely simple.

For those religious people that happen to be smitten by a coven of Bill Wilson followers meeting in Church basements, I highly suggest that you take what you want and leave the rest. Meaning take the church basement and leave the AA group out of it. Also, please take the picture of Bill Wilson and his 12 commandments off the wall and put the Ten Commandments in there place. We wouldn’t have to be having these discussions if you did.

MA

By your definition, we’re both in AA. I just take less than you do.

I never lived in Mass, but I went to grad school there, and my wife worked in Lowell. I lived just across the border in NH and commuted in to Boston. But, I was actually in Natick this last week. We met some friends at the Starbucks there before leaving to see the Sox play.

SoberPJ

brian.. over time it is physically impossible to avoid indoctrination and assimilation of AA ideas and concepts that you think you reject today. Repetition when in a trancelike state is very powerful. Study the concept of trances and you will find that there are occasions when you are in one in meetings. What is read at the beginning of every meeting is actually a lie. The first paragraph of Chapter 5 is pure bullshit and is designed to influence your mind to keep you in AA. How much of Chapter 5 do you believe? Remember, Buchmann was a true professional at religious conversion and everything about AA is designed to bring about that conversion through repetition and fear and manipulation. “Take what you want and leave the rest” is hollow advice over time with AA.

SoberPJ

I was thinking about this conscious contact and walking hand in hand with our creator on the broad highway nonsense yesterday and saw it from a different perspective. Those concepts appeal directly to the ego, and the ego loves them. Think about it. A direct contact with the creator of the universe ! That’s pretty heady stuff. If you buy into it, what on earth could make one more special than that? And, if you have a story or stories that can enthrall listeners about how the creator of the universe took time out of his busy running the universe schedule and did things for you directly and personally, well, damn, it doesn’t get any more special than that. And, the more he does it, the more special you are. “God shots” are pure ego boosters. To do gawd’s will is not humility, it is pure ego boost, so no wonder it is difficult to get people to see the indoctrination and brain washing. Their ego and sense of self worth is tied directly to the faith healing non sense. No wonder some old timers don’t care once they realize they have been lied to and manipulated for decades, their entire sense of self worth is not only tied up in the unwarranted admiration of having time, but the conscious contact non sense has their ego in a headlock.

flannigan

@Brian
Please enlighten me as to exactly what “you take from AA” and what “you leave”. Thanks in advance.

It is true that AA is a very simple program, but by design the intricacies of the 12 Steps devised by Bill Wilson to rewire your brain to find your Spiritual, not Religious awakening through repetition of very easy to use and remembered slogans has a very bad side effect on those afflicted with Alcoholism. Alcoholism has a very high predisposition of occurrence with “obsessive compulsive disorder” (OCD), “Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder” (ADHD) and Nicotine Addiction. When looking for alternatives to AA or NA it may not a good idea for people who have OCD, ADHD or smokers to pick a program which was founded by a person who had heavy OCD tendencies because of his endless repetition of slogans and the increases possibility of death from emphysema which were both tendencies of Bill Wilson and eventually caused his death from smoking. If you want o take what you want and leave the rest in AA it is suggested that you give up smoking and the repetition of slogans to protect your self from the maladies that could not be removed by this simple program in one of the co-founders of AA Bill Wilson. Learn from past mistakes made by Bill Wilson in thinking that the Spiritual, not religious path would save you from these maladies that shortened his life.

causeandeffect

SPJ, so true. On the one hand, it seeks to destroy your ego in the real world by forcing you to adopt the label of morally depraved. On the other hand, you’re gawd’s favorite (I’ve actually heard this) and gawd is always willing to drop everything else in the universe and find you that special parking spot, tell you to try a different key in the lock, put buildings right where you will see them, or plop a blizzard right down on all of NYC to make you so bored that you write out your 4th step. And these absurdities can be told meeting after meeting, year after year, decade after decade and nobody will challenge them. It is the most grandiose of all grandiosity, the ultimate in arrogance.

But just try saying you don’t believe in gawd or don’t trust or love all AAs in a meeting and see what that will get you.

sobermind

@causeandeffect, well said. A straightforward definition of delusional with a capital D, if you ask me.

brianjcas

Flannigan – No thanks!! Perhaps if you are truely interested in my answer and would ask in a manner that did not come off as an elitist, who is just looking for a reply for the sole purpose of turning your nose up at it, I would have answered. I choose not to “enlighten” you as to what I take and leave from AA. Try using a little tact in your questioning and perhaps you will get a better response. No desire to take the bait from someone who comes off as the elitist with all the answers. My response would have been completely irrelevant you anyway. Thanks for your sincere interest in what works for me though.

flannigan

@Brian
“An elitist with all the answers”?? If you don’t or can’t or wish not to answer my question, simply say so or ignore the question. I was truly interested in what part of AA works for you and what part you leave behind. I am sorry you took this as “bait”. And why would you assume that I would “turn my nose up” at your response? And how do you know that “your response would be completely irrelevant to me”? Sorry you found my use of the word “enlighten” to be tactless. Your ” non-response” , however, is baffling to me.

Sue

flannigan,

I saw NO indication of an elitist attitude in your question. I was sincerely interested myself and that’s all, no hidden meaning.

Sally

I was interested in hearing that response too.

Sue

I am no longer in the program. However, if someone were to ask me that question today, I could certainly answer.

What I needed: Take responsibility, first things first, dont sweat the smal stuff and very important; Live and Let Live and Im sure I could come up with more.

As far as what I did not need I would be happy do answer that if sincerely asked the question by someone in the program.

SoberPJ

I think Brian was confused .. Hey, I’m the elitist with all the answers. No? What? The hell you say …

SoberPJ

Also, I think Brian is on to something. Let’s look at the definition of “Elitism” shall we –

” Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite — a select group of people with intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.”

I find it fascinating that AA members actually fit that definition better than the general population. It is well known in the minds of AA members that their experience as drunken sots uniquely qualifies them as more able than the rest of society to deal with and define anything related to alcohol. So, by leaving AA, I have voluntarily given up my position as a member of a very elite organization. And happily so.

AnnaZed

“…God didn’t start and wars so why should He intervene?”

By that logic, God didn’t turn anyone into an alcohol abuser either, so why should he intervene?

Gunthar2000

Nice Annazed!

speedy0314

this sure has gotten feisty for a thread that was generated by an ‘article’ from “The Onion”.

and ditto Gunthar’s props. very nicely done.

MA

So we’re getting fucking etiquette lessons now? Since when did “elitist” become a pejorative? I’m an elitist, and I’m offended at the implication. We’ve been oppressed too long, and I’m not taking this!

I’m a tea totaling non-drinker Alcoholic dry drunk with a resentment issue in denial, but I’m right where I’m supposed to be. Many AA members have told me this with a big smile showing there coffee and nicotine stained teeth, but no one is perfect.

causeandeffect

Nah, you guys got this all wrong. Brian called flannigan an elitist because he said “please” and “thank you.” Steppers never even say please when they are talking to gawd. Its always gawd, do this, gawd grant me that, gawd take away this, gawd gimme, gimme, gimme!

And more props to Annazed!

Andy M

Yes, the appeals to the “higher power” are pretty infantile and selfish, as well as bad mannered, aren’t they? It reminds me of spoilt, greedy kids writing letters to Santa, which, of course, is an anagram of Satan.

Andy M

PS
Wasn’t familiar with “props”. Dunno if it’s used over here. Had to look it up.

brianjcas

Whether the question was intended to portray an elitist attitude or not, that is exactly how it was perceived by me.

causeandeffect – I did not call flannigan an elitist! I simply said his question came accross in that manner. I got a chuckle out of your post though. I enjoy a good joke.

SoberPJ

That’s ok Brian.. if you believe AA non sense, you have a disease of perception and you can’t tell the true from the false, so I understand. It must be hard being that confused about everything. Unless, of course, AA is bullshit.

brianjcas

Thanks for your sincere empathy SoberPJ. I too imagine it would be hard.

SoberPJ

See, I was being a smart ass and it went right by you. Unless, you were being a smart ass too. It’s hard to be rigorously honest isn’t it?

brianjcas

Oh I picked up on your sarcasm. What I have mentioned in this thread is that I take what I want from AA and I leave the rest. So I guess in some regards I do believe part of the AA nonsense. The part that I choose not to beleive, well I leave that part behind. It’s really quite simple PJ.

SoberPJ

Well, good for you Brian.. and when you get sponsee’s, be sure to let them know exactly what pieces to take and what to leave. And let them know that the beginning of Chapter 5 is a lie and for them to be sure to blot it out for the rest of their life because they will be hearing it for that long. When the day comes, and it will, when you say something in a meeting with conviction that you know is not true, but you are saying it because you have heard it a thousand times, remember this little exchange. At that moment I hope that you will realize the power of repetition and how you have failed at take what you want and leave the rest. You are in a professional environment of conversion that is supported by a corporation in New York City that goes to great lengths to make the whole thing appear different than it is. Keep your eyes and ears open. Eventually you’ll see.

brianjcas – I was wondering what you thought about the growth of AA and NA by the use of court ordered attendees, like what appears to be happening in Nutley New Jersey? Both of these 12 Step groups entice court ordered attendance by use of their Hospital and Institution (H&I) Intergroup programs resulting in the infiltration of the fellowship by people who really do not want to be there, but have to by court order. These are the groups often told “you can take what you want and leave the rest” as a reason to keep going and grow the fellowship in any manner possible.

Brianjcas

I’m not sure that I agree with your term of entice. It might just be semantics but I consider what AA does with regards to jails and institutions to be not much more than keeping with their responisbility declaration. Everyone on this site seems to be pretty knowledgeable about the fellowship so I am sure you know of what i’m speaking about but just in case. The AA Responsibility Declaration: I am responsible when anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A.always to be there; And for that I am responsible.

I’m not sure if I answered your question or not, but that’s my thoughts on that.

Swamibedpan

@Brianjcas
Going to prison,hospital or being on probation,parole is not reaching out to aa for help. It is aggressive and deceptive recruitment to target people in these places. There are many religions/lifestyles that do not drink alcohol. They do not go into these places seeking to convert people to their belief system. Nor do they lie about this by claiming to be a program of attraction rather than promotion. If that was the case aa’s would simply sit in their clubrooms waiting for the people who seek their kind of help to turn up.

Brianjcas

Swamibedpan – I have to disagree. I do not consider making AA available in jails and institutions for those who want and/or need (court ordered or not) it as recruiting. As far as it being a lie when they claim attraction rather than promotion, that’s a matter of how you choose to inerpret that, so I can’t disagree. I suppose there is a thin line between promoting and making themselves avaialble for those who once again need it or want it. If they sat in clubrooms and no one knew how to find them, then I guess AA would not be keeping with their responsibility declaration.

Brianjcas – how do you feel about the people who do not want to go to AA but are forced to by the court system as a condition of parole?

Swamibedpan

Tax payer funded jails institutions are not provided as a recruiting ground for anyone, that is not their purpose. It is definitely recruiting. Not wishing to sound rude, but is English your first language? It is quite obviously recruiting.
Attraction and promotion are two completely different things, the line is not thin, they are miles apart.
Brianjcas says
If they sat in clubrooms and no one knew how to find them, then I guess AA would not be keeping with their responsibility declaration.

exactly.
“Their responsibility declaration”
Not mine. Not my governments. Not any qualified professional. Not any sane person I have met. Just their own declaration.
Here is Swamibedpans declaration of responsibility
I am responsible that whenever a whackaloon pokes their nose anywhere else other than their clubrooms I must send them back where they came from.

Brianjcas

swamibedpan – you may not have intended to sound rude (although i’m quite positive it was in fact your intention) but you did sound rather rude. If you want to keep the conversation on the subject matter and off the sophomoric level then I’ll be happy to converse with you. Otherwise, I am not going to dignify your comment with a response.

Sally

Brian says: “if they sat in clubrooms and no one knew how to find them, then I guess AA would not be keeping with their responsibility declaration.

Brian that’s a bad declaration. Especially since AA claims to be one thing (self help group for alcoholics) but is actually another (a cultist religion).

Swamibedpan

The words recruitment, attraction and promotion do not have vague easily misunderstood definitions. In plain english everyone knows what they mean. It is a common cult propaganda technique to alter the meaning of words from common everyday usage in order to further the cults agenda.
AA does this consistently.
Furthermore and above all aa has no business in any of these places because it does not work as a stop drinking programme. It has a success rate less than the spontaneous rate of remission. Numerous clinically valid studies have shown this, these can be found at several of the links kindly provided to the right. Secondly many of these studies show that it actually harms people in the following ways.
It kills them. people who attend aa die with greater frequency than alcoholics who don’t. Suicide is a particular concern.
They increase the likelihood of being arrested or divorced.
Binge drinking increases by as much as 5 times.
They require more expensive treatment later.
They are exposed to financial and sexual predators.
They get their core values and self esteem smashed by being indoctrinated into the beliefs and practices of an obscure and bizarre cult religion.
All of these points have been proven.
Should someone dispute this without studying the relevant data and information. Which is freely available. Then I will not apologise for being rude because they are attempting to defend the indefensible, harming people and wasting a lot of peoples time.

Swamibedpan

Also members of alcoholics anonymous should look more closely at the meaning of the word need. No one on earth at any time has ever needed to join an organisation such as aa in order to stop drinking. Quite the contrary. The overwhelming majority of people (70-80%) who stop drinking or successfully moderate their drinking, in other words recover, do so without resorting to any program whatsoever. This fact is also proven in studies freely available to the right.
Obviously reading this information, absorbing and studying it. Perhaps checking up on it a bit and comparing it with other points of view would take some time and energy and a degree of open mindedness. How much easier to just endlessly read the big book and parrot that as the word of god.

SoberPJ

Swami .. I think it is incredible how people who have done little to no real research of the breadth of the issues, come on here acting like their minimal, inbred experience in AA somehow qualifies them to have a legitimate and informed conversation or debate. It is like they are bringing a straw and a spitball to a gun fight.

Swamibedpan

Members of alcoholics anonymous should also take a close look at the meaning of the word sober. It means not being intoxicated and has nothing to do with states of serenity and gratitude. One has to wonder about the state of mind of anyone who would twist the meaning of a simple word through such an extreme contortion. Could it be the state of mind of someone who has drunk themselves beyond the brink of brain damage,then repeatedly taken a lethal cocktail of hallucinogenic and sedative drugs and been exposed to indoctrination from an extreme cult religion whilst suffering from the delirium tremens? Then having zero educational qualifications and therefore little legitimate employment prospects sought to finance an extravagant lifestyle by lying about all of this? Who/ anywhere? could possibly need any of this?
But then all this would require some research. Much easier to say it works if you work it.

Swamibedpan

@SoberPJ
As usual I agree. Guess i am just in the mood for it today. cncpro has got me thinking.

Swamibedpan

@SoberPJ
How long did you drink the koolaid for? Then how long was the research process before you wised up?
I drank it for 2 years then was in out for another 2. It was by no means an automatic process and involved a lot of study and self examination. I also went and checked oranges statistics with a grad student in statistics. I got an A for stats 101, not too hard , but it was along time ago. He could not find a fault with oranges work. I also checked oranges research with an old high school classmate who is now a Professor at the University of Melbourne. He said Oranges research and use of primary sources was impeccable and at doctorate level.
They bring nothing to the fight. Don’t any of them ever read the about page.
Lastly FTG and MA have provided a lot of really good stuff on here as well and that has helped a lot in my evolution. But like i said it takes a bit of work.

SoberPJ

Swami, unfortunately way too long..16 years.. I did about 6 months of “research” and hit the road. It was a process, but by knowing AA intimately, I could see the truth. I have been out well over a year. But I have been going to SMART to get my volition back. Being powerless for 16 years took my will away and I am getting it back.

If people are new to AA, they may still think it is a little altruistic fun house for people to stop drinking. They have no idea where they really are.

Mike O

Brian, you seem to be goading people into responses and then acting all hurt when you’re being oversensitive about their “rudeness” (a very subjective, qualitative judgment that you have complete control over assessing towards others). Listen, this is a site mostly for those who have problems with AA and are sharing their own experience and thoughts on it. If you’re going to come in and challenge that people will respond to it strongly. I don’t see the “rudeness” you seem to be attributing to everybody else here. If you truly wish to “take what you want” and “leave the rest” then feel free to do so at any local AA meeting of yours. Just don’t expect us to prop up your passive aggressive justifications. Most of us here have heard it before, been there before ourselves and now find ourselves on the other side. We’ll see you here as well if you decide that you’ve finally had enough of the lies, manipulation and duplicitousness that AA really offers.

Brianjcas

Mike O – I know what this blog is all about and I know what brings you folks here. I am in agreement with some of what you folks are saying here. I did not start posting here with the intentions of goading people into anything. I simply stated my opinion/thoughts/beliefs on a certain subject that was relevant (in my opinion) to the thread. I’m not sure how someone wouldn’t consider “is English your first language?” as being a tad bit rude. It was a rhetorical question that was asked for the purpose of demeaning me. In my opinion it’s totally unnecessary. I don’t consider myself being thin skinned. I’m not easily offended nor have I even been offended, I just don’t see the need for it. I am well aware that I can go to any of my meeting to take and leave what I choose. Fact is, I’m still on this blog because I have learned a few things here. Am I not welcome here because I don’t agree with 100% of what is posted on here? Does that warrant personal attacks on me such as “is English your first language?”

Swamibedpan

@Brianjcas
Struck a raw nerve eh bro?
My point was about the way that cults contort language in order to facilitate their agenda. Words mean what they mean, while I fully comprehend that language evolves over time, to just completely change the meaning of a word in order to suit an ideology is a propaganda technique frequently used by Bill Wilson.
I am very familiar with the thought stopping and manipulation techniques that the Wilson cult uses to silence dissent. I object to it.
AA is a fanatical cult religion from the 1930’s that recruits deceptively by pretending to be treatment for substance abuse. If you wish to debate me over this please do so in plain modern english.

SoberPJ

Hi Brian .. being serious here.. what things are you in agreement with?

Brianjcas

I’m being extremely vague with my answer because I have only have about 30 seconds to get this out but here are a couple of things I disagree with within the program, and I think by default it results in my agreeing with you folks:

1. The oxymoron of AA being a program of suggestion

2. The “we are powerless” aspect of the fellowship and how it relates to acceptance, taking responsibility (in essence regaining power) and then turning that regained power over to god (again becoming powerless)