WWJD? This is question that believers ignore with virtually every response. Would Jesus turn away the poor or would he feed them? Would he heal the sick who couldn't pay? How would he handle illegal immigration? Would he see borders as we do? Would he turn the other check or strike back? Would he carry a gun? Would he call our president all sorts of names?

I criticize, at least in part, because of the hypocrisy. I hope that answers itThis!

Hold on here guys. Before you all start giving Pablo a standing ovation, let's point something out.

Is welfare perfect? Is it truly ONLY feeding the hungry? No, it is not. What welfare was designed to do is far different than what it actually does.

So if you agree with that, I'll toss this at you: did Jesus not walk into a temple and start throwing a fit because it was NOT being used for its correct purpose? And if Jesus were alive today, do you think he would support the corruption behind the welfare system, both in its administrators and unjust beneficiaries, or would he rally against it....as he did against the Jewish priests who were corrupt?

First off, I am not going to presume to know what anyone would do in any given situation.

Secondly, my applause if for the statement Pablo made, and its true. There are many here that identify themselves as Christian, however their words / actions are in direct conflict with Christ's teachings, hence the hypocrisy statement.

And W4C is correct Pablo. Being a Christian doesn't involve being Christ-like. That may be the goal, but it is unattainable. We are humans, and have human faults

Christ was human too. You may be correct in that being 'god-like' in Christianity is unattainable, but does that mean you don't even try? Some Christians continue with the same hate-filled rhetoric without even seemingly to try to change. Is that the perception of Christianity you'd like to show to 'non-believers'? Is that really any different than the Islamic extremists that continue to say Islam is a religion of peace, yet continue to blow themselves and others up?

WWJD, indeed.

_________________

Quote:

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

August 1st, 2012, 1:46 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

WOW, what an extreme turn of events! I've gone back over my thoughts, and my words and continue to be troubled, no actually hurt by those comments. In my passionate dislike for this President, because he is so anti-everything I believe in, as well as 2/3 of America, now I have hate speech?

I'm truly stunned, and almost deleted my comment and walked away because of it. But then I have to have thicker skin that that, and so I'll FORGIVE, and let it go.

I would like to ask a question in return, who has not said or reacted to something they've said or read here? Who has not passionately debated something, or felt something in regards to a set of standards and beliefs? We've all done it, but I'm not trying to judge you because of your stance.

Regardless, I would hope that there would be grace and understanding that if someone were troubled by what I said, they would reachout out personally and say, "hey that seems pretty hypocritical or whatever, did you really mean that?" Instead, we sit behind our computers and cast judgment as if we are the moral authority on what's being said.

I'm out for a few days, y'all continue to say what you need to but I guess what hurts the most is that the deep concern and care, love if you will, for you guys as friends that I have shown by what I've said in this and other threads obviously doesn't weigh in if all that you see is my "hypocritical" ness. And that to me is the most shocking!!!!

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

August 1st, 2012, 2:02 pm

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12488

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

WOW, what an extreme turn of events! I've gone back over my thoughts, and my words and continue to be troubled, no actually hurt by those comments. In my passionate dislike for this President, because he is so anti-everything I believe in, as well as 2/3 of America, now I have hate speech?

I'm truly stunned, and almost deleted my comment and walked away because of it. But then I have to have thicker skin that that, and so I'll FORGIVE, and let it go.

I would like to ask a question in return, who has not said or reacted to something they've said or read here? Who has not passionately debated something, or felt something in regards to a set of standards and beliefs? We've all done it, but I'm not trying to judge you because of your stance.

Regardless, I would hope that there would be grace and understanding that if someone were troubled by what I said, they would reachout out personally and say, "hey that seems pretty hypocritical or whatever, did you really mean that?" Instead, we sit behind our computers and cast judgment as if we are the moral authority on what's being said.

I'm out for a few days, y'all continue to say what you need to but I guess what hurts the most is that the deep concern and care, love if you will, for you guys as friends that I have shown by what I've said in this and other threads obviously doesn't weigh in if all that you see is my "hypocritical" ness. And that to me is the most shocking!!!!

Do what you have to do, but know that my comments were in a general nature, therefore if anyone takes offense to them, then perhaps that person feels some sort of guilt.

Peace brothe!

_________________

Quote:

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

August 1st, 2012, 2:21 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9898Location: Dallas

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

TheRealWags wrote:

WarEr4Christ wrote:

WOW, what an extreme turn of events! I've gone back over my thoughts, and my words and continue to be troubled, no actually hurt by those comments. In my passionate dislike for this President, because he is so anti-everything I believe in, as well as 2/3 of America, now I have hate speech?

I'm truly stunned, and almost deleted my comment and walked away because of it. But then I have to have thicker skin that that, and so I'll FORGIVE, and let it go.

I would like to ask a question in return, who has not said or reacted to something they've said or read here? Who has not passionately debated something, or felt something in regards to a set of standards and beliefs? We've all done it, but I'm not trying to judge you because of your stance.

Regardless, I would hope that there would be grace and understanding that if someone were troubled by what I said, they would reachout out personally and say, "hey that seems pretty hypocritical or whatever, did you really mean that?" Instead, we sit behind our computers and cast judgment as if we are the moral authority on what's being said.

I'm out for a few days, y'all continue to say what you need to but I guess what hurts the most is that the deep concern and care, love if you will, for you guys as friends that I have shown by what I've said in this and other threads obviously doesn't weigh in if all that you see is my "hypocritical" ness. And that to me is the most shocking!!!!

Do what you have to do, but know that my comments were in a general nature, therefore if anyone takes offense to them, then perhaps that person feels some sort of guilt.

Peace brothe!

Ditto. My comments are reflecting those of Evangelical Christians in general, I'm sorry if they hit so close to home and have been personalized. I have said (and typed) plenty that I regretted and wasn't proud of.

Since when is trying to better yourself an emulate someone better than you called Hypocrisy? is it because he has yet to achieve being as great as who he emulates? Thats called failure NOT Hypocrisy. and Failure seems a bit extreme as he's (they) not dead yet and still have plenty of time to try.

im actually shocked by both Wags and Pablo here. Yes there is Hypocracy in religeons across the world. But to say the W4C is amongst them is pretty laughable. I have never seen him damn anyone for making mistakes he has made. I have never seen him tell any of you to do as he says but not as he does, ive never once seen him say he was anthing but flawed. Ive never even seen him tell you that you HAVE to become a christian! just tat he prays that you will know what he does. If that makes him a Hypocrite then sign me up!

If your child tries to grow to be like you but falls short is he(she) a hypocrite for trying? Is he a hypocrite for seeing how well you lived and encouraging others even though his own mistakes keep him(her) from being as "great" as you? Not only no, but HEEEELLLLL NO and you know it.

Pointing out the faults of others...and leaving out your own...correct me if im wrong here but isn't THAT Hypocrisy?

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

August 1st, 2012, 2:34 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9898Location: Dallas

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

regularjoe12 wrote:

once again BS....

Since when is trying to better yourself an emulate someone better than you called Hypocrisy? is it because he has yet to achieve being as great as who he emulates? Thats called failure NOT Hypocrisy. and Failure seems a bit extreme as he's (they) not dead yet and still have plenty of time to try.

Don't call out BS after changing the statement. When did I ever say trying to better yourself by emulating someone better was Hypocrisy? Please provide the quote.

What I pointed out was that if you are going to preach about Jesus, you should have some sort of WWJD filter towards things. Now if you want to call out BS on that, feel free.

regularjoe12 wrote:

Pointing out the faults of others...and leaving out your own...correct me if im wrong here but isn't THAT Hypocrisy?

I am going to have to correct you for being wrong as I don't think you understand what Hypocrisy is so here is the def:

"The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

Pointing out faults of others and/or leaving out your own has nothing to do with hypocrisy. Again, I'm not even using my own moral standards or beliefs, but those of those who claim to be Christian. And all I'm suggesting is that people who call themselves Christian use a WWJD filter in their life and if they don't - well they are quite frankly meeting the exact definition of hypocrisy.

You example of a child not growing up like you (the father) doesn't fit the definition of hypocrisy either.

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10398Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

regular joe....great post.

Pablo and Wags....I can claim to be anything, does it make it really true? There are those who claim to be Christian, even are seen as representatives of Christian organizations....but their actions speak louder than their status, and they can easily be viewed as nothing close to Christian. Hitler was a Christian. So was Napoleon. Yet the world views them as two of the biggest Anti-Christs in our history. Claims can be refuted. Certainly their claims can.

W4C and myself, yes, we say we are Christians. But I am not Christ-like, and neither is he. We have our opinions, we have our passions, we have our flaws....no different than anyone else. So, why are we held accountable for those flaws, but you are not held accountable? Simply because we say we believe in Christ, and we believe in God? So, does that mean not believing in Them means you can do as you want with no accountability to anyone or anything? The height of hypocrisy is to criticize someone for their beliefs, when in fact you act no differently but use the safety net of not having those beliefs. Shame on you. Can you sit there and tell me you have followed all of your parents teachings? Have you done everything they've every asked, without fail and without hesitation? If so, you are not being truthful.

Being Christian isn't a claim to being perfect. Being truly Christian isn't a claim to being better than anyone else. I said before, it is a goal, a goal not attainable but well worth the effort. I know my faults, I know my weaknesses. Being truly Christian is as much having a relationship with your own self as it is having a relationship with Christ. It is about the work in progress.....every day of your life.

So tell me, has W4C NEVER been understanding? Has he never been compassionate on some topics? Has he never been apologetic for things he said in err? Has he NEVER shown you ANY Christian-like qualities in his posts, in his thoughts? Until you can say that is true, you cannot reasonably criticize him.

Boy, I wish I was as perfect as you two.

And Wags, Pablo mentioned something about whether Christ would feed the poor or turn them away. That was an indirect reference to my feelings about the welfare program in the United States. My answer is this...He would feed the poor, but wouldn't accept the actions of those abusing the system. He would ask that they change their ways, much as He did to many people as reported in the Bible. But even He couldn't change the minds of everyone.

So if you want the answer to WWJD, tell you what....why don't you answer that question yourself? Obviously you guys are bigger experts on the subject than we are.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

August 1st, 2012, 3:23 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10398Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Pablo wrote:

Don't call out BS after changing the statement. When did I ever say trying to better yourself by emulating someone better was Hypocrisy? Please provide the quote.

Pablo wrote:

Why criticize? Look at other post. Does this person turn the other cheek? Love his neigbors? Forgive? He preaches it but go what he writes about Obama. Go read what he writes about someone on welfare. I could easily go back and give you hundreds of examples.

Now honestly, do you think his values truly follow those of Jesus?

Why criticize? Because of all the hypocrisy!!! What non-believers can't stand is the hypocrisy. Try to think of this in terms of politicians, what do you think of politicians who say/preach one thing but their actions are quite the opposite.

It is one thing to do something questionable, but quite another when you have been preaching against that same thing to the masses.

WWJD? This is question that believers ignore with virtually every response. Would Jesus turn away the poor or would he feed them? Would he heal the sick who couldn't pay? How would he handle illegal immigration? Would he see borders as we do? Would he turn the other check or strike back? Would he carry a gun? Would he call our president all sorts of names?

I criticize, at least in part, because of the hypocrisy. I hope that answers it...

There's your quote...you basically said because W4C, or myself, or whoever, has criticized Obama, and welfare, and immigration, etc. and didn't follow in the direct footsteps of Jesus, we are hypocrites. It's how I took it, how W4C took it, and I suspect how many others would take it.

Pablo wrote:

What I pointed out was that if you are going to preach about Jesus, you should have some sort of WWJD filter towards things. Now if you want to call out BS on that, feel free.

Then I'm calling BS. Tell me, are you an expert on football? Truly an expert? Then what right have you to criticize the Lions, or any other professional player, coach or team? Shouldn't you have some sort of WWVLD (Vince Lombardi) filter towards things? What right do you have to preach to others about football unless you can do EXACTLY what those professional football players can do, and be able to do it all day, every day.

What you are doing Pablo is saying that Christians have to hold themselves to a higher standard than the rest of the human race, AND be able to sustain that every minute of every day. If that were the case, then we'd be Christ-like. We have our faults, and we admit them. That's being human. None of us can get away from that.

Pablo wrote:

regularjoe12 wrote:

Pointing out the faults of others...and leaving out your own...correct me if im wrong here but isn't THAT Hypocrisy?

I am going to have to correct you for being wrong as I don't think you understand what Hypocrisy is so here is the def:

"The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

Pointing out faults of others and/or leaving out your own has nothing to do with hypocrisy. Again, I'm not even using my own moral standards or beliefs, but those of those who claim to be Christian. And all I'm suggesting is that people who call themselves Christian use a WWJD filter in their life and if they don't - well they are quite frankly meeting the exact definition of hypocrisy.

You example of a child not growing up like you (the father) doesn't fit the definition of hypocrisy either.

Once again Pablo....has W4C NEVER shown Christian qualities in many of the postings he's made? Answer that question before you proclaim him a hypocrite.

As for me, call me what you want. I could really care less.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

August 1st, 2012, 3:45 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Quote:

What I pointed out was that if you are going to preach about Jesus, you should have some sort of WWJD filter towards things. Now if you want to call out BS on that, feel free.

The BS is assuming he doesn't. He WILL fall short of what Jesus would do, same as me, you, and everyone else. But because he falls short of what is arguably perfection is human NOT hypocrisy. It's just not im sorry.

I stand corrected. I use hypocrasy in a broader sense. anything that falls under the "do as I say not as I do" is hypocrisy. that's prolly where soem of this is comming from.

But all that aside....simply because HE'S a Christian YOU hold him to a higher standard than a non beliver....even by your definitaion isn't that Hypocrisy?

Quote:

As for me, call me what you want. I could really care less.

An example of turn the other cheek? lol (sorry couldn't resist)

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

August 1st, 2012, 4:10 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9898Location: Dallas

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

regularjoe12 wrote:

But all that aside....simply because HE'S a Christian YOU hold him to a higher standard than a non beliver....even by your definitaion isn't that Hypocrisy?

I don't hold him to a "higher standard" than a non-believer because he is Christian. First, it is a "Christian standard" and Christian's call it "higher", that is quite insulting and untrue. It is the preaching that causes they hypocrisy statements - not the Faith itself.

M2K, you are twisting things and not using words per their definition much like Joe. When have I called myself a football expert? I'm a fan, as such I can criticize my team/players. Funny how like Joe, you quickly point out "higher standards" - that phrase in itself is quite telling as to how you view your Christian "standards" vs other "standards" that might not be Christian and by default must be "lower".

But all that aside....simply because HE'S a Christian YOU hold him to a higher standard than a non beliver....even by your definitaion isn't that Hypocrisy?

I don't hold him to a "higher standard" than a non-believer because he is Christian. First, it is a "Christian standard" and Christian's call it "higher", that is quite insulting and untrue. It is the preaching that causes they hypocrisy statements - not the Faith itself.

M2K, you are twisting things and not using words per their definition much like Joe. When have I called myself a football expert? I'm a fan, as such I can criticize my team/players. Funny how like Joe, you quickly point out "higher standards" - that phrase in itself is quite telling as to how you view your Christian "standards" vs other "standards" that might not be Christian and by default must be "lower".

M2K wrote:

As for me, call me what you want. I could really care less.

I think I'm going to call you a "football expert"!

wait wait wait wait waaaait...it's YOU who set the sandard (higher or otherwise) in this conversation, not us. It's YOU who called him a hypocite for not living up to standards that YOU percieve....correct me where im wrong here....

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August 1st, 2012, 5:02 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9898Location: Dallas

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

regularjoe12 wrote:

wait wait wait wait waaaait...it's YOU who set the sandard (higher or otherwise) in this conversation, not us. It's YOU who called him a hypocite for not living up to standards that YOU percieve....correct me where im wrong here....

We can get lost in all kinds of semantics here, I'm not interested in that. If you want to argue that I personally set up the "higher standards" of Christianity then go for it. If you want to argue that my perception of the "higher standards" of Christianity is wrong, go for that also.

Now to be fair, lets go back to the exact quote I responded to:

M2K wrote:

So, to criticize someone who happens to want to be like a person who preached to love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, and forgive.....why is that a bad thing?

It is this quote that set up the standards that I responded to, not me. Based upon this exact statement and the standard it sets, I called out hypocrisy and gave a number of examples as such. Now, lets look at exactly what I said:

Pablo wrote:

WWJD? This is question that believers ignore with virtually every response. Would Jesus turn away the poor or would he feed them? Would he heal the sick who couldn't pay? How would he handle illegal immigration? Would he see borders as we do? Would he turn the other check or strike back? Would he carry a gun? Would he call our president all sorts of names?

Now, please tell me which question I proposed above was me setting the standard or simply a question in response to the "standards" set forth previously by a self described Christian?

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10398Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Pablo wrote:

regularjoe12 wrote:

wait wait wait wait waaaait...it's YOU who set the sandard (higher or otherwise) in this conversation, not us. It's YOU who called him a hypocite for not living up to standards that YOU percieve....correct me where im wrong here....

We can get lost in all kinds of semantics here, I'm not interested in that. If you want to argue that I personally set up the "higher standards" of Christianity then go for it. If you want to argue that my perception of the "higher standards" of Christianity is wrong, go for that also.

Now to be fair, lets go back to the exact quote I responded to:

M2K wrote:

So, to criticize someone who happens to want to be like a person who preached to love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, and forgive.....why is that a bad thing?

It is this quote that set up the standards that I responded to, not me. Based upon this exact statement and the standard it sets, I called out hypocrisy and gave a number of examples as such. Now, lets look at exactly what I said:

Pablo wrote:

WWJD? This is question that believers ignore with virtually every response. Would Jesus turn away the poor or would he feed them? Would he heal the sick who couldn't pay? How would he handle illegal immigration? Would he see borders as we do? Would he turn the other check or strike back? Would he carry a gun? Would he call our president all sorts of names?

Now, please tell me which question I proposed above was me setting the standard or simply a question in response to the "standards" set forth previously by a self described Christian?

How is my asking that question setting any standards? And neither you, nor Wags, have offered any semblance of any answer.

And I answered your questions, I didn't say you were setting a standard by asking your questions. You are setting a standard by saying that since W4C and I have opinions about Obama, Welfare, and other social issues that YOU feel wouldn't align with WWJD, you are setting a standard. Your standard is that if someone who claims to be a Christian exhibits a non-Christ-like trait, then they shouldn't preach about Christianity.

Well, that means that basically no person alive can preach Christianity.

I'd say that's a pretty unfair standard in regards to anything.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

August 1st, 2012, 6:05 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9898Location: Dallas

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

m2karateman wrote:

How is my asking that question setting any standards? And neither you, nor Wags, have offered any semblance of any answer.

And I answered your questions, I didn't say you were setting a standard by asking your questions. You are setting a standard by saying that since W4C and I have opinions about Obama, Welfare, and other social issues that YOU feel wouldn't align with WWJD, you are setting a standard. Your standard is that if someone who claims to be a Christian exhibits a non-Christ-like trait, then they shouldn't preach about Christianity.

Well, that means that basically no person alive can preach Christianity.

I'd say that's a pretty unfair standard in regards to anything.

I shouldn't say "setting" standards, you were simply reiterating well known standards of Christianity and I played off of them.

For example, love they neighbor - isn't Mexico our neighbor? I have seen a lot of anger directed at Mexicans who cross the border. My question is how would Jesus view them? Put this same criteria on our poor neighbors. How do you think Jesus would view your stance on

You said turn the other check (meaning cheek), I personally don't think Jesus would carry a gun. Do you?

Forgive? Do the comments W4C has made against Obama sound like forgiveness?

I'm not saying you can't preach Christianity, I'm saying if you do be prepared to be called out as being hypocritical when your words/actions are in direct conflict. Man, I just called out the hypocrisy - imagine being told over and over that your lack of belief will condemn you to eternity in hell - now that is something to get upset about.

Now that I've called out hypocrisy, I'm going to forgive it all in a Christian manner and wipe the slate clean and exit this thread for awhile. (BTW - M2K I hope you do know I respect your views very much as you have always explained your beliefs in a spirtual and logical fashion so please don't take anything here personal)

Good evening from packer country, man do I feel like a fish out of water!!!

Unfortunately, the comments made have been weighing on my mind for the last six hours of driving. I've been replaying my statements, and actions trying to evaluate if there is any truth to your comments. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, because if I had been hypocritical then the statements made would and should serve as a check to my spirit. Having said that, I am perfectly comfortable with my positions and statements.

However, I do want to point something out: Why criticize? Look at other post. Does this person turn the other cheek? Love his neigbors? Forgive? He preaches it but go what he writes about Obama. Go read what he writes about someone on welfare. I could easily go back and give you hundreds of examples.

Could you please highlight where exactly you were discussing Evangelical Christianity? This is pretty specific, and you had a target in mind when you stated the above!

Keeping in mind that threads, facebook, and any other kind of media is not a propler form of communication, I'm willing to "turn the other cheek," but want to illustrate that from my perspective it was pretty clear who you were talking about.

I do believe what is forgotten here is that Christians are people too! We have different backgrounds and weaknesses. We make and have made mistakes, and yet when we do, and the world finds out, they scream it from the mountain tops. It's the proverbial glass house mentality. I would have loved to see Santorum send a few PI's out to research some of the dirty laundry on the main stream reporters. It would have been priceless for them to dish out their diatribe and then have him share his own information. but that's a moot point anyway.

Fellas, we can chase these rabbits till our legs fall of, what truly matters is the relationship with God through Jesus Christ. In the end, that is all that matters, and all that will ever matter. So I'll leave it at that, and have a good night. I may check in again in the morning before we go fully unplugged.