Now that I have your attention, as a climber for about three years now, climbing 12a's and V7's I don't really consider myself a beginner. I am past the point of just climbing to get better, it no longer works. I have begun training and my friend who has been climbing about the same amount of time as me thinks I'm crazy. He believes that he can get stronger and climb better by simply trying harder graded routes and problems, I understand this helps, but it will only help you improve very gradually, right? I want to convince him why training is much better thn the "just climb" method, any suggestions?

Some people are born naturals that can get away with the "just climb" method for a long long time, the rest of us will hit that wall a lot sooner and need to start being a little smarter in order to keep inproving.

It depends a lot on what you mean by training. "The SCC," and "Training for Climbing" both in their analyses and bibliographies indicate a plethora of information that indicates that cross training (eg weights and cardio) will provide only tangential benefits to your climbing. In short, they indicate that actual climbing with focus on specific goals will result in a better ratio of effort to results. Depending on his approach, your friend could be right... or you could. But you are certainly right in that "just climbing" without any focus will lead to slow progress if any since you are number wise at a common plateau.

Post an outline of your training plan so that folks know better how to respond. You might even get lucky and have some of the authors of the above to respond since they show up in this forum. Your best argument to your friend will be your own results.

Now that I have your attention, as a climber for about three years now, climbing 12a's and V7's I don't really consider myself a beginner. I am past the point of just climbing to get better, it no longer works. I have begun training and my friend who has been climbing about the same amount of time as me thinks I'm crazy. He believes that he can get stronger and climb better by simply trying harder graded routes and problems, I understand this helps, but it will only help you improve very gradually, right? I want to convince him why training is much better thn the "just climb" method, any suggestions?

If you can crank V7 but only climb 5.12a then I say you should climb more. But there is nothing wrong with a good training problem to address whatever weakness you have.

Now that I have your attention, as a climber for about three years now, climbing 12a's and V7's I don't really consider myself a beginner. I am past the point of just climbing to get better, it no longer works. I have begun training and my friend who has been climbing about the same amount of time as me thinks I'm crazy. He believes that he can get stronger and climb better by simply trying harder graded routes and problems, I understand this helps, but it will only help you improve very gradually, right? I want to convince him why training is much better thn the "just climb" method, any suggestions?

I think, honestly, just having clear and concise goals is the most important step to progress. I read somewhere (may have been here, but I can find it...sorry) that getting to 5.10 was relatively easy, but that for each grade after that required much harder work and dedication as well as a much longer period of time to see improvement. Can I ask what your specific training plan is? I personally climb for fun and have other goals that I am chasing vs. grade related goals (for example: be a confident leader, not let fear overwhelm me, etc).

Now that I have your attention, as a climber for about three years now, climbing 12a's and V7's I don't really consider myself a beginner. I am past the point of just climbing to get better, it no longer works. I have begun training and my friend who has been climbing about the same amount of time as me thinks I'm crazy. He believes that he can get stronger and climb better by simply trying harder graded routes and problems, I understand this helps, but it will only help you improve very gradually, right? I want to convince him why training is much better thn the "just climb" method, any suggestions?

Don't worry about convincing your partner training is the way to go. What's the point? If your training pays off, your climbing will speak for itself. Then, maybe your partner will be inspired to give it a try.

Now that I have your attention, as a climber for about three years now, climbing 12a's and V7's I don't really consider myself a beginner. I am past the point of just climbing to get better, it no longer works. I have begun training and my friend who has been climbing about the same amount of time as me thinks I'm crazy. He believes that he can get stronger and climb better by simply trying harder graded routes and problems, I understand this helps, but it will only help you improve very gradually, right? I want to convince him why training is much better thn the "just climb" method, any suggestions?

Now that I have your attention, as a climber for about three years now, climbing 12a's and V7's I don't really consider myself a beginner. I am past the point of just climbing to get better, it no longer works. I have begun training and my friend who has been climbing about the same amount of time as me thinks I'm crazy. He believes that he can get stronger and climb better by simply trying harder graded routes and problems, I understand this helps, but it will only help you improve very gradually, right? I want to convince him why training is much better thn the "just climb" method, any suggestions?

Here's some anecdotal stuff:

I've been doing the 'just climb' approach since I started climbing 10 years ago. The last two years I've plateaued at about v6 and projecting 12a. I would generally be able to onsite 11a/b, and work 11c-12a and be able to eventually get up one clean.

The past 4 months I've been doing 'Yoga for Climbers' every Thursday, which is a one hour ass kicker once a week, Acro Yoga every Monday, and my brother's Core Climbing Conditioning class every Wednesday, which is lots of abs, body tension, and stabilizer workouts. Since January I've bumped to working v8 in the gym and onsiteing 11d outside. I can comfortably do the 12s in the gym, but I wouldn't really call them legit 12s.

Those three workouts every week plus the usual 'just climb' has seriously bumped up my overall conditioning. I feel much more stable in very tenuous stances and I can do much harder moves with less effort.

Some people are born naturals that can get away with the "just climb" method for a long long time, the rest of us will hit that wall a lot sooner and need to start being a little smarter in order to keep inproving.

Exactly. I started training a year ago as I hit the mid-5.12 redpoint range. It has made a difference for me though I did a good job of figuring out exactly what my weakness was and what needed to be improved. That is a critical thing to understand before you start training. Figure out your weakness and work on that specifically.

I like the "just climb" method. Even at the gym I just climb on routes/problems for fun while others are doing 4x4s and "training". Then again, I haven't been climbing for very long (I think I'm 8 months in now). Though I do sometimes find myself climbing on "add-on" routes similar to the projects that I have outside in hopes that I can get that super-ecstatic, ultra-rewarding, blissful feeling after finally sending a project I've been working so hard on (aka best feeling in the world) sooner. But I wouldn't exactly call that training.

* You have easy access to hard routes (i.e. time and possibility to climb several times a week) * You always challenge yourself

A lot of climbers climb several times a week, but only a small proportion of the climbing time is used to really push yourself. Instead, they stay well inside their comfort zone and climb easy stuff or project routes to death before going for the redpoint (and don't even try to onsight something they might fail on). Challenging yourself like this is really hard, so for many a strength training approach in addition to the climbing can have good results.

Now that I have your attention, as a climber for about three years now, climbing 12a's and V7's I don't really consider myself a beginner. I am past the point of just climbing to get better, it no longer works. I have begun training and my friend who has been climbing about the same amount of time as me thinks I'm crazy. He believes that he can get stronger and climb better by simply trying harder graded routes and problems, I understand this helps, but it will only help you improve very gradually, right? I want to convince him why training is much better thn the "just climb" method, any suggestions?

Now that I have your attention, as a climber for about three years now, climbing 12a's and V7's I don't really consider myself a beginner. I am past the point of just climbing to get better, it no longer works. I have begun training and my friend who has been climbing about the same amount of time as me thinks I'm crazy. He believes that he can get stronger and climb better by simply trying harder graded routes and problems, I understand this helps, but it will only help you improve very gradually, right? I want to convince him why training is much better thn the "just climb" method, any suggestions?