rowyourboat wrote:I would like to ask the gentlemen here to consider that jhanas (the absorbed type) can arise from both samatha AND vipassana. Sati leads to samadhi. The presence or absence of panna is the difference. I have yet to meet a dry vipassana master who wasn't able to give rise to jhana. There IS only jhana mentioned in the suttas - without the 'samatha' or 'vipassana' qualification.

With metta

Matheesha

Quite frankly sometimes this obsessive focus on jhana tends to be a distraction. While jhana may be for some something fairly easily achieved, for most lay folks, if it is not out of reach, it is very difficult.

What the Burmese vipassana tradition recognizes is that, at least for the attainment of sotapanna, the level of concentration involved is far more accessible and does not require the preoccupation with all the bits a pieces of "attainment" that seems occupy the jhanika's efforts.

An interesting point, however, is that while there are dangers in the vipassana practice, the dangers of jhana practice, especially on one's own, are far greater and far more insidious.

There IS only jhana mentioned in the suttas

That is not quite so, as has been pointed out by any number of others here at length.

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

That is not quite so, as has been pointed out by any number of others here at length.

Except that by cutting RYB's sentence in half, I think you missed the point it was making.

The need for "vipassana jhanas" only arose because the commentarial tradition shifted the sutta jhanas to "samatha jhanas". In other words, it's a counterpoint, a reaction intended to balance an earlier offset.

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

That is not quite so, as has been pointed out by any number of others here at length.

Except that by cutting RYB's sentence in half, I think you missed the point it was making.

The need for "vipassana jhanas" only arose because the commentarial tradition shifted the sutta jhanas to "samatha jhanas". In other words, it's a counterpoint, a reaction intended to balance an earlier offset.

Metta,Retro.

It does not change anything.

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Does the actual moment of insight into, lets say, "Rise and Fall" has to come together with a thought about Rise&Fall? Or is the insight non-verbal, non-conceptual?

With best wishes,

Alex

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Thoughts rise and fall too. How do we view this? Is it with another thought? If so, how and where did this thought rise from? And how did it rise at the exact right moment just so you could use it to label another thought falling? Those are just few things to think about.

This is probably the main reason why we start with body to establish our mindfulness... it's less confusing that way.

So what you are saying is that insight into Rise & Fall doesn't have to use thoughts?

Is it the same with any other insight, that concomitant thought is not-needed for actual insight to occur?

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

So what you are saying is that insight into Rise & Fall doesn't have to use thoughts?

Is it the same with any other insight, that concomitant thought is not-needed for actual insight to occur?

What has been your experience?

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

So what you are saying is that insight into Rise & Fall doesn't have to use thoughts?

Is it the same with any other insight, that concomitant thought is not-needed for actual insight to occur?

What has been your experience?

I am not qualified to answer that with all certainty, for my experiences were very limited and I don't want to overestimate my experience.

As I understand what Comenterial Abh says (and perhaps suttas say indirectly) is that "thought about something" occurs always after the event it tries to describe. This also fits the commonsense experience that thought about something always happens just after (even if split second later) than the actual experience.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Well... I think that thoughts are necessary in the beginning, as long as they're appropriate (vitakka and vicara, initial thought and its application). I'm not sure if there's some confusion in between thoughts and citta. (I've never read abhidhammas.)

I don't really feel comfortable bringing my own experience into it, either. It's not that useful. I think that the best that we can do is just to share notes on what our understanding of the Dhamma is, and then trust each other to reconcile them with whatever our applications might be.

retrofuturist wrote:The need for "vipassana jhanas" only arose because the commentarial tradition shifted the sutta jhanas to "samatha jhanas". In other words, it's a counterpoint, a reaction intended to balance an earlier offset.

Yes, the suttanta usage of singleness of mind and jhāna has a wider application and is more inclusive than samatha jhāna.

Do I understand correctly the argument against samatha jhāna being that one can't have insight in the jhāna itself?

Why not? If Insight does not require concomitant thought, then why someone can't have direct insight while in samatha jhāna, and think about the insight and what it means only after emergence from samatha jhāna?

With metta,Alex

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

daverupa wrote:So yes, without sammasati the other links cannot occur, but without sammasamadhi, so too the remaining links cannot occur.

The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?

One way to view this would be to say ' enough samadhi for the breath to disintegrate into bodily sensations inside the nostrils, and then for those sensation to disintegrate into the elements, which can be seen to rapidly arise and pass away.

Alex123 wrote:Do I understand correctly the argument against samatha jhāna being that one can't have insight in the jhāna itself?

Well, the common understanding of commentarial Theravāda is that insight cannot occur within samatha jhāna. But as I've often discovered, the "common understanding" of commentarial Theravāda can be incomplete or misleading, failing to account for the full picture as found in the canonical, para-canonical, and post-canonical sources.

I haven't done a complete survey of all commentarial sources on this subject (it would require reading all of the relevant Aṭṭhakathā & Tīkā texts). But from what I have read it seems that there can be insight within samatha jhāna, but one still has to emerge from that meditative attainment prior to entering supramundane jhāna. This subject deserves further textual research, including a comparison with Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma sources.

Alex123 wrote:Why not? If Insight does not require concomitant thought, then why someone can't have direct insight while in samatha jhāna, and think about the insight and what it means only after emergence from samatha jhāna?

Ñāṇa wrote:I haven't done a complete survey of all commentarial sources on this subject (it would require reading all of the relevant Aṭṭhakathā & Tīkā texts

And the question is: do you read Pali at that level?

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

daverupa wrote:So yes, without sammasati the other links cannot occur, but without sammasamadhi, so too the remaining links cannot occur.

The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?

One way to view this would be to say ' enough samadhi for the breath to disintegrate into bodily sensations inside the nostrils, and then for those sensation to disintegrate into the elements, which can be seen to rapidly arise and pass away.

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Do I understand correctly the argument against samatha jhāna being that one can't have insight in the jhāna itself?

Why not? If Insight does not require concomitant thought, then why someone can't have direct insight while in samatha jhāna, and think about the insight and what it means only after emergence from samatha jhāna?

With metta,Alex

The mind can't make decisive movements in absorption, so you can't get an insight within it, that's right. Why not? Because the will is shut down. But that's exactly the 'temporal disappearance' of the aggregate of volition, so to practice jhana is to practice insight into "rise and fall". As I've said before in other threads also, you can't take samadhi and vipassana apart.

The part you quoted can be interpreted in other ways. The 5 aggregates are suffering and impermanent, that's what it also means when the Buddha said they can disappear, they can nibbana. Depending on where we are on the path, we contemplate on this in different ways.

reflection wrote:The mind can't make decisive movements in absorption, so you can't get an insight within it, that's right. Why not? Because the will is shut down.

Thank you for your helpful post. The follow up question is this: Is "will" required to observe presently arisen Nāmarūpa? Maybe just consciousness, perception, feeling and so on.

Considering that will is often an expression of one kilesas, it can be a hindrance for insight, because one may look at what one wants to look at and avoid looking at what one doesn't want to look.

With best wishes,

Alex

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

reflection wrote:The mind can't make decisive movements in absorption, so you can't get an insight within it, that's right. Why not? Because the will is shut down. But that's exactly the 'temporal disappearance' of the aggregate of volition

No Pāli sutta or treatise accords with your notion that "the will is shut down" in jhāna or that the aggregate of volition has disappeared. Cetanā and numerous other saṅkhāras are all present in each jhāna.