Uranus Is Huge!:neenerist: madgonad: I hate to break it to you guys, but the restrictive laws in D.C. have kind of worked. See link

Crime is only a quarter of what it was in the mid-90s when those laws appeared.

Demographics: Freakonomics presents it in an easily digestible form.

Abortion became legal in the mid 90s?

No, it became legal in the late 70's; about 18 years or before the mid-90's. So where there would have been the traditional wave of unwanted, poor young men who are the driving force behind crime waves, we had a great big bunch of nothing. And crime rates plummet.

Yeah which don't even get done for private sales on gun shows. Real effective tool there.

The government does not allow private citizzens access to NICS.

Change the law.....I'm all for allowing people like myself to run a background check on someone when selling them a firearm.

Whos metric about private gun sales are you using?

The DOJ when surveying inmates found out most of them recieved thir wepons from friends and family or designated purchasrers who passed the background check......private sales accounted for around 2% of how criminals get their guns.....according to the Brady Campaign they rate it around 40%.

Not for nothing, but in this case I would trust a criminal over the brady campaign.....even Sarah Brady made a straw purchase of a high powered sniper rifle for her son.

doglover:Uranus Is Huge!: neenerist: madgonad: I hate to break it to you guys, but the restrictive laws in D.C. have kind of worked. See link

Crime is only a quarter of what it was in the mid-90s when those laws appeared.

Demographics: Freakonomics presents it in an easily digestible form.

Abortion became legal in the mid 90s?

No, it became legal in the late 70's; about 18 years or before the mid-90's. So where there would have been the traditional wave of unwanted, poor young men who are the driving force behind crime waves, we had a great big bunch of nothing. And crime rates plummet.

I think Uranus was pointing out that legalizing abortion in the 70s probably had more of an effect than the restrictive laws of the 90s.

Yeah which don't even get done for private sales on gun shows. Real effective tool there.

Can't say I've ever been to a gun show where there were many private sellers. The vast majority of the sellers in the gun shows are dealers who require background checks. Probably doesn't make a lot of sense to pay for a booth to sell one or two guns that you could just as easily sell on Craigslist.

So, call it a private sales loophole if you want, because at least that's accurate, but not a gun show loophole.

Fail in Human Form:doglover: NewportBarGuy: OK, how about federal minimum sentence of life in prison for any gun crime whatsoever? No appeal, no parole. Nothing. You do ANY crime with a gun, you go away for life.

You asked for it, there it is.

Because draconian law works and imprisonment isn't the stupidest idea since performance enhancing cyanide capsules.

Meh I donno. I'm pretty liberal but I like "Project Exile". Stop locking up the pot smokers for years on end and put violent felons into a dark box for 20 or 30ish years until they're no longer physically a threat to society (I would remove all the weights from prisons). Seems like win/win to me.

/Let's face it, we're never gonna spend the money to actually try to rehabilitate these people

doglover:Uranus Is Huge!: neenerist: madgonad: I hate to break it to you guys, but the restrictive laws in D.C. have kind of worked. See link

Crime is only a quarter of what it was in the mid-90s when those laws appeared.

Demographics: Freakonomics presents it in an easily digestible form.

Abortion became legal in the mid 90s?

No, it became legal in the late 70's; about 18 years or before the mid-90's. So where there would have been the traditional wave of unwanted, poor young men who are the driving force behind crime waves, we had a great big bunch of nothing. And crime rates plummet.

Oh, I've read the book. But in order to properly show a correlation, you'd expect a corresponding increase in abortion in the mid 90s.

A better explanation might be that the mid 90s was the tail-end of the crack epidemic. (Or when the CIA quit pumping so much crack into black neighborhoods.)

Uranus Is Huge!:doglover: Uranus Is Huge!: neenerist: madgonad: I hate to break it to you guys, but the restrictive laws in D.C. have kind of worked. See link

Crime is only a quarter of what it was in the mid-90s when those laws appeared.

Demographics: Freakonomics presents it in an easily digestible form.

Abortion became legal in the mid 90s?

No, it became legal in the late 70's; about 18 years or before the mid-90's. So where there would have been the traditional wave of unwanted, poor young men who are the driving force behind crime waves, we had a great big bunch of nothing. And crime rates plummet.

Oh, I've read the book. But in order to properly show a correlation, you'd expect a corresponding increase in abortion in the mid 90s.

A better explanation might be that the mid 90s was the tail-end of the crack epidemic. (Or when the CIA quit pumping so much crack into black neighborhoods.)

Empty Matchbook:Peter von Nostrand: Hahahaha. Too funny subs. Everyone knows violence is due to video games and Hollywood. Saint LaPierre said so himself

Seeing as how he hasn't been drummed out of the NRA, I can only assume a majority of their members agree!

Video Games are violent, especially the first person shooters that advertise their games being as real as it gets without actually dying....and that also promote killing more and more people in order to unlock or gain access to higher powered in game weapons to kill more and more people with..they even employ behavioral specialist to design mechanics that keep people playing.....do you disagree?

doglover:Uranus Is Huge!: doglover: Uranus Is Huge!: neenerist: madgonad: I hate to break it to you guys, but the restrictive laws in D.C. have kind of worked. See link

Crime is only a quarter of what it was in the mid-90s when those laws appeared.

Demographics: Freakonomics presents it in an easily digestible form.

Abortion became legal in the mid 90s?

No, it became legal in the late 70's; about 18 years or before the mid-90's. So where there would have been the traditional wave of unwanted, poor young men who are the driving force behind crime waves, we had a great big bunch of nothing. And crime rates plummet.

Oh, I've read the book. But in order to properly show a correlation, you'd expect a corresponding increase in abortion in the mid 90s.

A better explanation might be that the mid 90s was the tail-end of the crack epidemic. (Or when the CIA quit pumping so much crack into black neighborhoods.)

Doktor_Zhivago:Yeah which don't even get done for private sales OR gun shows. Real effective tool there.

Gun shows still require NICS checks if you're buying from a dealer. What happens is that when you, a non-deadler, go there to sell one or two firearms some times you find a private buyer. You don't have access to NICS so you can't check them. If you show up at a gunshow with a whole bunch of guns to sell, you'll end up getting a visit from the ATF as they don't cotton to people selling a lot of guns without a FFL.

Likewise, sometimes you show up at a gun show looking for a specific firearm and you can't find it from a dealer but another person there has it and would be willing to sell it to you. Now there's no law requiring that you use a FFL to record the transaction but if I don't know you and you want to buy one of my guns, I'm going through an FFL. Now if I know you well enough, I'll sell it to you directly. Most firearm owners do this because they dislike gun crime as well.

Giltric:Empty Matchbook: Peter von Nostrand: Hahahaha. Too funny subs. Everyone knows violence is due to video games and Hollywood. Saint LaPierre said so himself

Seeing as how he hasn't been drummed out of the NRA, I can only assume a majority of their members agree!Video Games are violent, especially the first person shooters that advertise their games being as real as it gets without actually dying....and that also promote killing more and more people in order to unlock or gain access to higher powered in game weapons to kill more and more people with..they even employ behavioral specialist to design mechanics that keep people playing.....do you disagree?

Tell you what, the moment you take a kid who's only experience with guns is pushing buttons on a controller during CoD 3, take him out to the gun range, hand him a weapon shown in that video game, and have him score perfect bullseyes time after time, I'll listen to that argument.

pueblonative:Giltric: Empty Matchbook: Peter von Nostrand: Hahahaha. Too funny subs. Everyone knows violence is due to video games and Hollywood. Saint LaPierre said so himself

Seeing as how he hasn't been drummed out of the NRA, I can only assume a majority of their members agree!Video Games are violent, especially the first person shooters that advertise their games being as real as it gets without actually dying....and that also promote killing more and more people in order to unlock or gain access to higher powered in game weapons to kill more and more people with..they even employ behavioral specialist to design mechanics that keep people playing.....do you disagree?

Tell you what, the moment you take a kid who's only experience with guns is pushing buttons on a controller during CoD 3, take him out to the gun range, hand him a weapon shown in that video game, and have him score perfect bullseyes time after time, I'll listen to that argument.

Or even have him deal with the pain in the ass of hauling around ammunition, loading magazines, recoil, not unlocking new things with simple button pushes, and not having a dozen friends on voice chat while he does it.

If video games cause violent behavior, we'd be seeing more savagery than a full on Viking raid every day because everyone I know, including girls, plays violent video games at least sometimes.

Not for nothing, but this isn't required for all applications of a firearm.

Although I get what you're saying, and I disagree with the NRA on this issue. However, what I find hypocritical about Hollywood is the glorification of violence (particularly gun violence) shown by some producers, directors, and actors. All the while these same people argue for the ban of certain types of guns, magazines etc...

doglover:pueblonative: Giltric: Empty Matchbook: Peter von Nostrand: Hahahaha. Too funny subs. Everyone knows violence is due to video games and Hollywood. Saint LaPierre said so himself

Seeing as how he hasn't been drummed out of the NRA, I can only assume a majority of their members agree!Video Games are violent, especially the first person shooters that advertise their games being as real as it gets without actually dying....and that also promote killing more and more people in order to unlock or gain access to higher powered in game weapons to kill more and more people with..they even employ behavioral specialist to design mechanics that keep people playing.....do you disagree?

Tell you what, the moment you take a kid who's only experience with guns is pushing buttons on a controller during CoD 3, take him out to the gun range, hand him a weapon shown in that video game, and have him score perfect bullseyes time after time, I'll listen to that argument.

Or even have him deal with the pain in the ass of hauling around ammunition, loading magazines, recoil, not unlocking new things with simple button pushes, and not having a dozen friends on voice chat while he does it.

If video games cause violent behavior, we'd be seeing more savagery than a full on Viking raid every day because everyone I know, including girls, plays violent video games at least sometimes.

Because society is exactly the same it was the day the TV was invented. The ONLY thing that has changed is that our entertainments have gotten more violent more realistic and somewhat interactive.

If someone were to only close the factory doors to the "Criminal Gun Manufacturer" shop, then criminals couldn't get guns, seeing as legal gun owners are so responsible as to never let their weaponry fall into the wrong hands.

GAT_00:Yes, I'm sure there are no robberies in states like Arizona that have open carry legal.

Could it be that the headline writer wasn't saying looser gun laws deter crime but rather was saying laws making it tougher for non-criminals to have guns have no effect on criminals? Nah, that's crazy talk.

Holocaust Agnostic:Because society is exactly the same it was the day the TV was invented. The ONLY thing that has changed is that our entertainments have gotten more violent more realistic and somewhat interactive.

Pop culture is more an indirect measurement of a society than a driver.

Gosh, as a resident of the District of Columbia, it's just too bad that the Federal tax paying citizens who reside here didn't overwhelming vote not to allow guns here, only to have our will ignored. One would think we had no actual representation!

Waiting for the one teabagger who spouts off about taxation to take up the cause of those of us who are actually taxed without representation

Mrbogey:Holocaust Agnostic: Because society is exactly the same it was the day the TV was invented. The ONLY thing that has changed is that our entertainments have gotten more violent more realistic and somewhat interactive.

Pop culture is more an indirect measurement of a society than a driver.

Yeah which don't even get done for private sales on gun shows. Real effective tool there.

The government does not allow private citizzens access to NICS.

Change the law.....I'm all for allowing people like myself to run a background check on someone when selling them a firearm.

Whos metric about private gun sales are you using?

The DOJ when surveying inmates found out most of them recieved thir wepons from friends and family or designated purchasrers who passed the background check......private sales accounted for around 2% of how criminals get their guns.....according to the Brady Campaign they rate it around 40%.

Not for nothing, but in this case I would trust a criminal over the brady campaign.....even Sarah Brady made a straw purchase of a high powered sniper rifle for her son.

All I was saying is that there shouldn't be a different law about how to deal with gun sales in every single state, local and county government. My point was not so much about the efficacy of current laws but more so about how they are so different from place to place making it impossible to actually enforce them with some kind of coherent plan. You can buy a semi-auto rifle with 100 round mag here in TN but it might magically turn into an illegal assault weapon when you move out of state. All the different laws do is provide a place for a gray and black market to thrive by giving them a steady supply of legally purchased firearms in states with lax laws/enforcement to then sell illegally or even legally though loopholes and other such things in states with strict laws/enforcement.

SharkInfested:Gosh, as a resident of the District of Columbia, it's just too bad that the Federal tax paying citizens who reside here didn't overwhelming vote not to allow guns here, only to have our will ignored. One would think we had no actual representation!

Waiting for the one teabagger who spouts off about taxation to take up the cause of those of us who are actually taxed without representation

The constitution trumped you like it did sodomy laws in Texas, and like it should re: gay marriage ban in California.

doglover:Holocaust Agnostic: The ONLY thing that has changed is that our entertainments have gotten more violent more realistic and somewhat interactive.

And yet violent crime rates continue to DROP. How can video games be causing crime if the rates since their inception get lower each year?

I once touched a match to half a teaspoon of black powder and got quite a satisfying little bang. So then i added a pond of black powder and three gallons of water. But this time all i got was a boring little fffff!

Holocaust Agnostic:Mrbogey: Holocaust Agnostic: Because society is exactly the same it was the day the TV was invented. The ONLY thing that has changed is that our entertainments have gotten more violent more realistic and somewhat interactive.

Pop culture is more an indirect measurement of a society than a driver.

Its both.

Well I suppose if you differentiate consumers and producers of pop culture.

Holocaust Agnostic:doglover: Holocaust Agnostic: The ONLY thing that has changed is that our entertainments have gotten more violent more realistic and somewhat interactive.

And yet violent crime rates continue to DROP. How can video games be causing crime if the rates since their inception get lower each year?

I once touched a match to half a teaspoon of black powder and got quite a satisfying little bang. So then i added a pond of black powder and three gallons of water. But this time all i got was a boring little fffff!

thats how i learned black powder isn't flammable.

I once tried wishful thinking to win an argument on the internet. But I made too many typos and doglover was amused by my poor attempt at logic becoming a wonderfully absurd image of a gunpowder pond with lead fish in.

If you are unarmed and you steal a gun. Is it an armed robbery when you leave?

Thanks

Depends on situation.If I am carrying a firearm, and you grab it out of my hands and hold me at bay while you escape, yes.If I am carrying a firearm and you knock me down, grab it, and run without threatening me, it's probably some aggravated sort of robbery while in possession of a firearm, but I doubt it would be considered armed robbery.If you burglarize my home without a weapon, but you find one of my guns and take it, it turns into a higher degree of burglary at that moment (at least under FL law).

doglover:Holocaust Agnostic: doglover: Holocaust Agnostic: The ONLY thing that has changed is that our entertainments have gotten more violent more realistic and somewhat interactive.

And yet violent crime rates continue to DROP. How can video games be causing crime if the rates since their inception get lower each year?

I once touched a match to half a teaspoon of black powder and got quite a satisfying little bang. So then i added a pond of black powder and three gallons of water. But this time all i got was a boring little fffff!

thats how i learned black powder isn't flammable.

I once tried wishful thinking to win an argument on the internet. But I made too many typos and doglover was amused by my poor attempt at logic becoming a wonderfully absurd image of a gunpowder pond with lead fish in.

Whats wishful about declining to draw conclusions about a particular variable based on data collected with no controls whatsoever?

If you have a small geographic area where some object isn't allowed, but is surrounded by a huge geographic area where that object has only superficial restrictions placed on it, and movement between these two areas isn't restricted in any way, the fact that the object winds up in the small, restricted space is absolute proof that restrictions on it cannot work and in no way implies that there is a larger problem needing addressed.

By the way, one of my "responsible gun owning" neighbors threw what appears to be a box of .270 soft point ammo out with the trash the other day and now it's been laying in his front yard for the last four days because the trash men caught it and dumped it. I guess we'll just assume he soaked it for a period of time and didn't just throw it out live even though I have every reason to believe the moron did just that since he's never done anything else remotely intelligent the entire time I've lived here.

doglover:madgonad: I hate to break it to you guys, but the restrictive laws in D.C. have kind of worked. See link

Crime is only a quarter of what it was in the mid-90s when those laws appeared.

Because crime isn't down worldwide or anything...

Absolutely. The countless correlations between gun ownership, gun laws and crime only have causative effects when it means there should be MOAR GUNS. Everybody knows, after all, that the ONLY facet of gun violence that can't possibly be a part of the problem is the prevalence of guns.

In fact, smart people like you know that the only way to reduce gun violence is to increase the number of people with guns. If there are more guns with fewer restrictions, the only logical outcome is less people getting shot.