An interesting point about our apparent deadline strategy

I was going to write a response, but I realized that it would be a waste of effort.

Right, as I said in another discussion, how quickly people forget how much of a disappointment Hossa was in the 2009 playoffs, especially the finals. Also looking at both deals and the production from both players since the 2009 playoffs, the whole Franzen vs. Hossa comparison is a wash.

I mostly agree. This is a different era of managing a team and Holland hasn't fully adapted. It is getting harder and harder to steal quality players from someone else and if you don't draft exceptionally well - then you have to overpay for a quality FA or give up some middle-of-the-road prospects and picks to take a chance on a proven commodity (even short term).

Well, he refuses to overpay for a quality player in FA, but certainly loves to fatten up the contracts of role players. For example, he wouldn't sign Jagr or Semin to expensive 1 year deals - but will give useless inflated contracts to injury prone and role players like Samuelsson and Colaiacovo looking for "value" that end up making roughly the same amount as one "star" player. Why? Because Cleary flourished here on a chance.

It would make much more sense to tie up some short term money in a star player and have to cut dead weight later if there are cap problems and let your coveted young prospects (that he refuses to trade) get some playing time. Instead he loses out on quality players, pays a ton for mediocre players, lets prospects overripe in the minors instead of gain NHL tangible value, and wastes the remaining years of our star players.... waiting... for something miraculous to happen. In the end he just says, "Aw shucks, we kicked some tires, but apparently you have to actually be willing to give something up".

Truthfully, injuries have been the best GM we've had this season. It forced out the useless older players and gave our prospects time to shine. Although, thats the good and bad of it because Holland is like Golem and now Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, and Lashoff have become the preciousssssss Wings property- which he would never let any go in order to upgrade NOW.

And let's go to the other extreme. Since he's not willing to wheel and deal, spend some money on FA, or let go of old players - then at least start a true rebuild and get some draft picks with our soon to be UFAs or redundant players.

You won't win in this league by being middle of the road.

PS - save the Hossa talk because we all know that Holland literally did NOTHING to make that happen.

/rant

I hate to bring this word up...but here it is..."core"...yeah, "core".

We mocked "core" concept a few years back...but i am now thinking we were wrong on this. The "new NHL" is about having elite core players and then some young guys who aren't getting injured every other day that fill the line up out. We have a small "core"...Dats, Z, Kronwall, and Howard. I think Howard is close to elite the way he has saved our as* this year. That's about it. Franzen was thought to be "core", but he is not (obviously). The "new NHL" in the cap era is not about "loyalty to older guys" who tend to get beat up as the season goes on and then run out of gas in the playoffs. It's about guys who have some jump in their step and can fill out the line up...once they start to show sustained bouts of being injured or ineffective, you have to move them on and move younger guys in. And all of that is a bit of a crap shoot, but it is how you avoid the mediocrity curse (stuck in the middle).

The salary cap has made it a very cut-throat, crass business...but to compete you have to cut your losses with some of these guys, bring in the younger/cheaper talent from the minors, and continually look for elite core guys in free agency. You can't be loyal to guys that are older and have been around awhile, but have lost a step and spend three-quarters of the time on the IR.

I totally disagree with the let them "ripen" concept. What is the physiologic peak of a human being? It is at 28 years old...at least from a respiratory physiologic standpoint. So after 28, it's a downhill trend from an athletic perspective. Leaving these guys in the minors forever is a detriment because they are not developing against the best talent (NHL talent) and you are wasting some of their best years from a physical standpoint in the minors. Andersson has been great this year. Without injuries, he would be in the minors. What about Lashoff? He would be in the minors without injuries.

It seems like our management can't even evaluate our young talent to know when to bring them up. If you can fill your line up on the cheap with the younger talent, then you can afford to break the bank in free agency to get a couple "elite core" players. But we have management who continually think that signing guys like Bert, Sammy, Cola, and Cleary is the right strategy when we have guys like Andersson, Tatar, Lashoff, and Nyquist wasting away in the minors. If you save the money you spend on Bert, Sammy, Cola, and Cleary you can then sign one or two elite players who have high skill and are difference makers. Yes, last year we crapped out on Parise and Suter. But unless we are continually re-evaluating our line up at the end of year and cutting guys who are not really producing or have a high chance of being injured, we are gonna be stuck in mediocre hell.

Right, as I said in another discussion, how quickly people forget how much of a disappointment Hossa was in the 2009 playoffs, especially the finals. Also looking at both deals and the production from both players since the 2009 playoffs, the whole Franzen vs. Hossa comparison is a wash.

Just to be clear - my posts had nothing to do with the Hossa vs. Franzen debate. I was only speaking on the first signing.

I think you're drastically undervaluing some of the Wings players in order to make this list.

Both Franzen and Brunner have produced at essentially equal or better rates than many players on your list including, Heatley, Selanne, Hossa, Sharp, Carter, Brown, Richards, Iginla, Horton, Lucic, Callahan, Gaborik and Richards.

Offensively Kronwall has outplayed every defenceman on your list but Suter and Letang. Kronwalls deficiency is his defence, and the 2 guys you suggest acquiring are actually worse defensively than he is.

Then in net you list Quick who has the worst Sv% of all starting goalies in the entire league, and who trails Howard in every single goalie stat.

Detroits list of depth should read

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Kronwall, Brunner and Howard.

Still isn't likely to get us the cup, but definitely better than you make it seem.

I agree that Quick isn't who he was in the playoffs last year, and that we aren't completely barren like I made it seem.

I really really like Brunner, but he is still in his first year here and could very well be the guy we need if he steps it up a bit. Franzen is so much of a floater that I find it tough to list him up there (if only for me wanting to punish him for being so frustrating), but when he gives it everything he has, he is absolutely dangerous.

Kronner has played strong offensively, but as you said, he has been rough in our own zone. I agree that maybe the problem isn't finding some #1 offensive guy, and that maybe we look for a solid defensive guy like Stuart was for us. Maybe it's Dekeyser for all we know!

Also, I agree that Howard should be listed. Meant to have him up there. He's bailed us out of plenty of games this year and last.

I hate to bring this word up...but here it is..."core"...yeah, "core".

We mocked "core" concept a few years back...but i am now thinking we were wrong on this. The "new NHL" is about having elite core players and then some young guys who aren't getting injured every other day that fill the line up out. We have a small "core"...Dats, Z, Kronwall, and Howard. I think Howard is close to elite the way he has saved our as* this year. That's about it. Franzen was thought to be "core", but he is not (obviously). The "new NHL" in the cap era is not about "loyalty to older guys" who tend to get beat up as the season goes on and then run out of gas in the playoffs. It's about guys who have some jump in their step and can fill out the line up...once they start to show sustained bouts of being injured or ineffective, you have to move them on and move younger guys in. And all of that is a bit of a crap shoot, but it is how you avoid the mediocrity curse (stuck in the middle).

The salary cap has made it a very cut-throat, crass business...but to compete you have to cut your losses with some of these guys, bring in the younger/cheaper talent from the minors, and continually look for elite core guys in free agency. You can't be loyal to guys that are older and have been around awhile, but have lost a step and spend three-quarters of the time on the IR.

I totally disagree with the let them "ripen" concept. What is the physiologic peak of a human being? It is at 28 years old...at least from a respiratory physiologic standpoint. So after 28, it's a downhill trend from an athletic perspective. Leaving these guys in the minors forever is a detriment because they are not developing against the best talent (NHL talent) and you are wasting some of their best years from a physical standpoint in the minors. Andersson has been great this year. Without injuries, he would be in the minors. What about Lashoff? He would be in the minors without injuries.

It seems like our management can't even evaluate our young talent to know when to bring them up. If you can fill your line up on the cheap with the younger talent, then you can afford to break the bank in free agency to get a couple "elite core" players. But we have management who continually think that signing guys like Bert, Sammy, Cola, and Cleary is the right strategy when we have guys like Andersson, Tatar, Lashoff, and Nyquist wasting away in the minors. If you save the money you spend on Bert, Sammy, Cola, and Cleary you can then sign one or two elite players who have high skill and are difference makers. Yes, last year we crapped out on Parise and Suter. But unless we are continually re-evaluating our line up at the end of year and cutting guys who are not really producing or have a high chance of being injured, we are gonna be stuck in mediocre hell.

I'm not sure there has ever been a post I more agreed with here on LGW. This sums up my feelings pretty well and I was certainly one of those anti-Core people years ago.

But, your last paragraph is EXACTLY what I feel is a case of Holland and Co. not adapting. Young players getting a chance to become the next Bert, Sammy, Cola, and Cleary (or better) while spending that cash on a bonafide Top-6er or D, even if we slightly overpay, seems to be what is working these days.

Unfortunately, "potential" seems to be valued way more than actual production to us. One day we have to come to terms with the fact that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are anomalies of drafting and not a strategy for success. We can't make all of our prospects untouchable in hopes that we produce another one.

Pav is my favorite player of all time. He deserves to have someone to play with. The guy is still so dominant. Get him someone really good to play with and who knows maybe he re-signs for a couple more years.

I'd rather lose a first and a good prospect for a star player plus two more years of pav playing with that star player

This is why I could see the benefit of going for it now and leveraging your future a bit. We're going to be a competitive team most nights that we have Pavs and Z in the lineup, so while we have the benefit still of having these guys in the lineup, why not put the best team we can together right now and go for it. Strike while the iron's hot. After all, even if Dats stays, he's not getting any younger. Nor is Z, and his back is likely to slow him down faster than Datsyuk as well.

People say we should be happy because we're a playoff team still and that's the new thing in the cap era, but we're a playoff team because we still have two of the best players in the world at the core of this team. Does anyone truly believe this team is even close to a playoff team if Datsyuk were to leave or Z has a long term injury, considering that even with these guys, most anyone with half a brain realizes we're overachieving this year with this lineup, not to mention the absurd injury streak (though I'm not convinced that the injuries haven't actually helped us...).

But anyways, if we're a playoff team largely because we're still building around Dats and Z, there's certainly an argument to be made that we could move back to contender status a lot easier than some seem to think. It's more than one or two deals; we're not a "Shanahan" away and it's not 1997. But what one or two deals we make now or maybe could've made over the summer might have been the difference in deals made right now.

What people keep failing to recognize is that a deal or two made last summer might've been the difference between leveraging a great deadline deal for someone like Iginla and not even being on Iginla's list of teams. Like it or not, we live in a "what have you done for me lately?" world, and it's becoming all the more true in the cap era of hockey. And while to us, that last Cup series which we barely lost doesn't seem so long ago, four teams have won the Cup since we last won it, and two of those four teams in particular keep finding ways to go for it in the Hawks and Pens. But you hear people talk about how the cap will get them and or about the Crosby/Malkin and Kane/Toews advantages, seemingly ignoring the fact that we still have a very real Dats and Z advantage. And the Pens and Hawks have had to make tough decisions and continually work around the cap, they keep finding a way to go for it. They are perceived as teams that are out there to win, and they have a core in place that attracts talent. In my mind, Holland really should've been doing this while he still had Lidstrom, as the team had far more potential to be a contender while #5 was still with us. We might've been one or two deals away at that point.

The big difference between our team and theirs is that our management seems scared to go for it, continually putting off making moves citing either the cap, "leveraging the future," or waiting for the "much better free agent market next summer" that has been MIA since Holland first brought it up back in 2009 I believe. This year it's the cap decrease and the inevitable buyouts. Wonderful logic there, by the way. It's about as brilliant as those who think we can trade our scraps for stars. Everyone wants and expects us to buyout Sammy. What kind of players do you think other teams are going to be buying out?!?!? Overpaid, mid-level, aging clunkers. Depth level guys at best, and clearly, we have more than enough depth guys. Tangents... In any event, something always seems to come up that forces us to come up with the next "next year it makes way more sense to go shopping" scenario. Other teams make more dramatic moves to swipe the talent up, or guys sign with other teams, or it just boils down to Holland muttering something that's started sounding about as logical as "the rent is too damn high."

At this point, given what has become of the situation and what seems to be our inability to land anyone noteworthy via trade or free agency, I'm not convinced it wouldn't be better to just sell off what we have, sink in the standings for a couple of years to get some decent picks, and stock up through the draft. Considering we've got a descent farm system and group of young guys ready to come up, we might be in a better position to trade picks and prospects for legit NHL talent when we have a plethora of it. This is all the more true if there's any truth to the rumors about Datsyuk heading back to Russia after next year, and if Holland doesn't really have a strong hint one way or the other, he's not doing his job. He needs to be dealing with that situation if it's a situation, one way or the other, much sooner rather than later. We already know he's not good at dealing with big player departures later. It meant one thing with Lidstrom when this team still had Dats and Z, but in this situation, with no one coming close to replacing holes left by Lidstrom, Rafalski, or Stuart and then you have to deal with losing Dats too, it might not mean find a replacement so much as stock up on as many draft picks as you can over the next few years.

It's funny that you ask this. I was writing a post---it would have been the first response---and then halfway through decided that it just wasn't worth it. I've been doing that quite a bit on here lately; I'm finding myself more inclined to ignore opinions I consider completely absurd than I am to respond to them. Because why bother?

That said, thank you for the shout out; I'm glad I'm so notorious as a positive voice here.

Edit: hey, why not ask a couple of questions anyway? Here goes! OP: first off, what will you do if the Wings succeed, in spite of your guarantee (whatever that's worth) to the contrary, in making the playoffs. And second, what, exactly, is so novel to you about great players residing on non-contender teams?

I delete 90% of my responses. I often just /like or shake my head at them if i disagree.

It's funny that you ask this. I was writing a post---it would have been the first response---and then halfway through decided that it just wasn't worth it. I've been doing that quite a bit on here lately; I'm finding myself more inclined to ignore opinions I consider completely absurd than I am to respond to them. Because why bother?

That said, thank you for the shout out; I'm glad I'm so notorious as a positive voice here.

Edit: hey, why not ask a couple of questions anyway? Here goes! OP: first off, what will you do if the Wings succeed, in spite of your guarantee (whatever that's worth) to the contrary, in making the playoffs. And second, what, exactly, is so novel to you about great players residing on non-contender teams?

Ah, there's Mr. Holier-than-thou. I was wondering when you'd show up.

First off, why is it "completely absurd"? Because you disagree with it? But, of course, it's never enough for the mighty Crymson to simply disagree.

Next, I doubt I'll have to worry about that. Everyone around us either A) getting hot or B) making additions to improve themselves. Heck, in some teams' cases, they're adding by subtracting. So to answer your question, I would simply know they'd be out darn quick even if they did. No one can disagree with that. Besides you, of course.

Second, the reason non-contending teams are in that position is because they have a lack of "great players". It's not common. Not many great players with Buffalo or Florida. We don't have too many here, either. We're full of third and fourth-liners. That was a mistake any way you slice it.

I have my opinion, and you have yours. You can coddle the Wings and tell them it;s okay if you want. I refuse to. Things are not OK. And, quite frankly, I don't see them being OK for a long time coming.

"Whatever that's worth"...

My feelings are sure hurt.

"So notorious as a positive voice."

My "Mr. Holier-than-thou" nickname is proven. Thank you.

Edited by DetroitRedWings1993, 02 April 2013 - 06:33 PM.

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.

Right, as I said in another discussion, how quickly people forget how much of a disappointment Hossa was in the 2009 playoffs, especially the finals. Also looking at both deals and the production from both players since the 2009 playoffs, the whole Franzen vs. Hossa comparison is a wash.

The guy was injured and still was descent. Datsyuk's been disappointing in the playoffs when injured too. People pissed and moaned about that before too. It's all silliness to me. These guys are some of the best players in the game. Fickle fan complaints about lack of production due to injury don't change that. Though to be fair and clear, no one's calling these guys 2002 Yzerman either, and it'd be almost inhuman to really draw the comparison between Yzerman's ability to play through pain and anyone else.

But anyways, Hossa didn't put up the numbers some would like, but he didn't completely disappear either, again, despite dealing with injuries and playing alongside a team full of guys struggling with their own injuries. 2009 was a rough playoff run for this team; even Lidstrom missed games. When everyone around you is also struggling, it's all the harder to rise above your injury, which ultimately I think is why we lost that year. We were a better team, but we were way to beat up, and got as far as we did mostly thanks to strong play from Osgood, who undoubtedly would have snagged the Conn Smythe trophy had we won game 7.

I posted this in another thread already, but I think it will be a worthwhile addition here as well.

If a deadline acquisition plays for your team, does not win the Cup, and leaves in the offseason, then you have lost your prospects and/or picks for nothing. Many teams make deadline deals every season, but ultimately only one team wins the Cup. As for prospects, the team has nine (Sproul, Ouellet, Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, Frk, Pulkkinen, Jurco, and Mrazek) that at present would be foolish to give away. As others have said---and it is true---this is a team that is rebuilding on the fly. Buying success is no longer possible. The teams that have won the Cup in the past four seasons have done so mainly on the strength of players whom they drafted and developed, and they drafted many of those players from high picks that were achieved from bottom-feeding seasons.

The above players, most particularly (italicized for emphasis) those drafted high in the 1st round, provided the meat for those Stanley Cup-winning teams. The contributions of Toews, Kane, Kopitar, Brown, Crosby, and Malkin require no explanation, and the highest pick used to select one of those was #11. For that matter, the lowest 1st-round-drafted player I listed above went at #18. In contrast, the highest pick that Holland has had (Kindl) since he has been with the Wings was #19. The highest pick that the Wings had before that? 10th overall... in 1991.

That's just how things go now. Want the Wings to remain successful? Great, but be aware that it'll come at the cost of never having any of these superstar draft picks unless KH and his team get very fortunate (as they often have). That's something the organization will always need to contend with. But in the salary cap era, it's doubly vital to develop the good prospects that the team does obtain. On that subject, consider if Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Kronwall had been sent away as a part of a deadline deal when they were still prospects. This team would look very different now, almost certainly for the worse. And at this stage of time, KH can even more not risk sending away the next potential superstar prospect, because there's no longer the buffer of higher spending.

Like it or not, that's how it is. KH & company have been able to maintain the team's momentum since the lockout better than any other team in the league, but the system is constantly working against them in this.

It's funny that you ask this. I was writing a post---it would have been the first response---and then halfway through decided that it just wasn't worth it. I've been doing that quite a bit on here lately; I'm finding myself more inclined to ignore opinions I consider completely absurd than I am to respond to them. Because why bother?

That said, thank you for the shout out; I'm glad I'm so notorious as a positive voice here.

Edit: hey, why not ask a couple of questions anyway? Here goes! OP: first off, what will you do if the Wings succeed, in spite of your guarantee (whatever that's worth) to the contrary, in making the playoffs. And second, what, exactly, is so novel to you about great players residing on non-contender teams?

Positive voice? I would give it to you if you said that the opinions you tend to express about the Wings tend to be optimistic, but your method of expressing your thoughts and opinions is anything but positive. To be completely honest, one of the biggest reasons I have a hard time taking most of your posts seriously is because I can't tell if you're truly just trying to be an optimistic fan or if you're someone who just likes to stir the pot. Maybe it's a fine line to you; maybe you're just jaded by the polarized hysteria that tends to rule most internet fan forums. You may be genuinely optimistic and content with the way this team is run and the general state of things, but you post like you're getting a kick out of beating people with a "2X4 of Optimism." And again, perhaps this happens because you're just jaded, and to be clear, I can certainly understand that and in this case, I think the state of being jaded by internet message forums is a very sane and utterly reasonable response. Whether your optimistic thoughts or opinions are valid and genuine or not, they rarely sound like they're coming from one who is a "positive voice."

So if you're just trying to stir the pot, well, good job. You stir the pot very well. But if you actually are seeking to discuss your real thoughts and opinions in a manner that might cause those thoughts to be well-received by others, you need to rethink the way you're expressing yourself.

This deadline was doomed with the shorten season. I said from the start that trades would be few and far between this year to many team still in the hunt. Now with that said we knew for quite some time that we needed help on both Defense and offense we should have tried to fix that before the start of the year. If we don't fix it this off season I say dump and re- build

"He was standing there like a cigar store Indian" Mickey Redmond"Holmstrom gets more attention around the net than a pretty girl around closing time!" Mickey Redmond

I think you're drastically undervaluing some of the Wings players in order to make this list.

Both Franzen and Brunner have produced at essentially equal or better rates than many players on your list including, Heatley, Selanne, Hossa, Sharp, Carter, Brown, Richards, Iginla, Horton, Lucic, Callahan, Gaborik and Richards.

Offensively Kronwall has outplayed every defenceman on your list but Suter and Letang. Kronwalls deficiency is his defence, and the 2 guys you suggest acquiring are actually worse defensively than he is.

Then in net you list Quick who has the worst Sv% of all starting goalies in the entire league, and who trails Howard in every single goalie stat.

Detroits list of depth should read

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Kronwall, Brunner and Howard.

Still isn't likely to get us the cup, but definitely better than you make it seem.

I love it - one thread bemoaning Hollands passivity. Another thread praising it.

Man, this board is getting as bi-polar as our team. I haven't seen it split like this since the Great Enforcer Wars of 4-5 years ago.

My favourite colour is aggressive salmon.

I'm kind of middle of the road where I want to trade guys like Flip, Quincey and White, but I'd also be cool with getting Pominville, Gaborik or Eriksson, but I'd rather see guys like Pulkkinen or Ferraro go along with a couple roster players as opposed to our 1st or 2nd round picks this year.

The guy was injured and still was descent. Datsyuk's been disappointing in the playoffs when injured too. People pissed and moaned about that before too. It's all silliness to me. These guys are some of the best players in the game. Fickle fan complaints about lack of production due to injury don't change that. Though to be fair and clear, no one's calling these guys 2002 Yzerman either, and it'd be almost inhuman to really draw the comparison between Yzerman's ability to play through pain and anyone else.

But anyways, Hossa didn't put up the numbers some would like, but he didn't completely disappear either, again, despite dealing with injuries and playing alongside a team full of guys struggling with their own injuries. 2009 was a rough playoff run for this team; even Lidstrom missed games. When everyone around you is also struggling, it's all the harder to rise above your injury, which ultimately I think is why we lost that year. We were a better team, but we were way to beat up, and got as far as we did mostly thanks to strong play from Osgood, who undoubtedly would have snagged the Conn Smythe trophy had we won game 7.

Sounds like the same crowd who bemoaned for a decade or two that the Wings picked Primeau over Jagr. Move on, people

Isn't it interesting how quickly people turn on each other when things don't go well. It's getting more and more vicious in the forums the past few years. Lets not forget that we're all Wings fans here and the sun will still come up tomorrow. We just may be the 8th seed.

1) Identify my core players and sign them to high dollar deals for 3-5 years. If i really have confidence in one of them, maybe 6-7 years. Don't lock in for longer than that. Two guys on defense, five guys on offense and a goalie. 8 core guys in total.

2) Fill out the rest of my roster with average guys who are hard working, durable and not too old. Grinders that are young and not worn down.

3) Avoid older guys who have a reputation of being physical...they generally wear out at that age. My physical guys have to be younger guys.

4) Avoid trading cheap assets with potential upside for rentals or old guys...that's a losing strategy.

5) Identify the top 1 - 2 free agents every year or so and go at them very hard with a high dollar deals. The core needs to be replenished. If the core drops to a low level (like 5 or less), you have to replenish.

6) Bank on the fact that eventually a prospect or two will turn into a core player. But they have to be evaluated on the NHL level between the ages of 21 -24 regularly. No more over-ripen bulls**t.

7) Every year at the end of the season, some changes have to be made. It is like re-balancing your stock portfolio. You need to make some changes. Even if you win a cup. That's the best time to make changes because that is when your assets will be worth most...after a good season.

8) Don't be afraid of occasionally making a bad deal...but when you do, cut your losses. Don't hang on to a mistake forever.

The NHL with the cap system requires yearly re-assessment and adjustments to maintain competitiveness. As GM, you have to have thought all this out and made your moves during the off-season. Scrambling at the trading deadline is not ideal and should be avoided if possible.