the thing is that while ddnite is not so hot right now (cough my signature), it is far from the only thing dragonite is capable of doing. it is much more versatile than volcarona by virtue of a more flexible movepool and typing.

there are admittedly a lot of pokemon in this game that tend to put big appreciation on spin support, dnite is one, but not all its sets require the spin, because not all sets need scales on right away to ensure they can't be checked by every ice attack ever. bulkier supportive sets (parashuffler, subroostDD) are quite independent of spin support.

ultimately while dnite is demanding of spin support as well, it is nowhere near as demanding as volcarona, and it is also a lot more versatile. i don't see them being comparable enough to drop dnite to B

With all the bloody Genesect leads at the moment, Volcarona could be pretty useful as an anti-genesect lead (or anti-lead in general, except (alas) for Politoed). QD in Genesect's face and start denting.

Definitely SD. ScarfChomp is not a very good set anyway. It lacks qualities that make a scarfer worthwhile, such as U-turn/Volt Switch, Trick and lastly spammable STABs. EQ is shit to be locked into, everyone knows this, and Outrage is even worse if you can't end games with it, see Scarf MoxieMence.

SD Chomp can be both strong and surprising which is very nice. There are 3 ways to use SD Chomp. SD + 3 attacks + LO, SD + 3 attacks + Yache Berry + lowered Def IVs so that your SpD is higher, and you can avoid the OHKO from Scarf Genesect's Ice Beam, and finally SubSD + 2 STABs + Salac Berry. The SD + 3 attacks LO set has no true counters, as at +2 it can 2HKO everything in OU iirc, but can be revenge killed very easy. The SD + 3 attacks set lures and kills certain revenge killers such as Mamo and Scarf Genesect, but lacks the power to 2HKO everything, and the last set can easily sweep offensive teams if priority users and faster Scarf users are eliminated.

How the heck is Hippowdon A Tier and Tyranitar is in B? Having any Tyranitar on your team guarantees that many A and B tier pokemon will do no damage to your team. Not to mention its weather effect turns Politoed, Abomasnow and Ninetales back into D Tier pokemon when it switches in. And it is a direct counter to an S-Tier pokemon Deoxys-D, and gives SpDef support to Terrakion. And for the most opinionated part of this post, there's no way anybody in the world can convince me that Tyranitar should be in the same tier as Xatu.

Hippowdon can not switch into the other weather starters at all. It also can't use attacks like Pursuit, Fire Blast, and Ice Beam. Hippowdon is setup bait for basically every S and A Tier mon. Hippowdon can't switch into at least 80% of S, A and B Tier pokemon at all. Seriously look at the list, it can't do ANYTHING to them.

Tyranitar is horribly Fighting-weak, and is also weak to U-turn (hello Genesect, Torn-T, and Keldeo). Tyranitar also does jack-shit to stop Deoxys-D from getting hazards up unless you're Banded for the 2HKO on Crunch, in which case he still gets Rocks and a layer of Spikes up, more if he switches out once you've revealed that you're locked into Crunch.

I do like how you ignore how Hippowdon also gives SpDef support to Terrakion, not that it matters because Rain shits on everything else anyway.

Hippowdon has immense bulk, more physical than Tyranitar has, and if you want Tyranitar to be comparably bulky, you sacrifice all that offense you were praising.

Hippowdon has recovery and phazing, two things which Tyranitar lacks, but probably couldn't use anyway because sneezing on it with any physical Fighting-type attack breaks it in two (Alakazam also OHKOs with LO Focus Blast and virtually any previous damage, like Rocks).

Now, completely ignoring how Sand is mostly dead in favor of Sun and Rain (I haven't seen it recently), Tyranitar's niche has been usurped by Hippowdon, as Tyranitar doesn't do bulky half as well (you could argue he does SpDef better, but that hardly helps when Keldeo, for the third time, shits on him with Secret Sword) and using him for offense is foolish when so many Pokémon can come in like nothing happened and out-speed and OHKO, giving weather control over to your opponent.

I agree with you. But hear me out:
I am currently playing with Volcarona it works wonders for me. Getting a QD is not as hard as you think. Rapid Spinning? Using Starmie is so good as Starmie is fast, can spin, can KO Spinblockers and attracts Bug+Grass moves for Volcarona to switch into. Heatran can also be dealt with by Starmie or another teammate. (lol, just realize that A-Tier pokemon still do require support so duh, volcarona will get walled by one of them.Dragonite can also be walled by skarmory, ferrothorn or bronzong, if dnite does not carry the appropriate move. so we carrry teammates to help KO them. Get what Im sayin?)
Anyhow, with Dragonite and Heatran out of the picture, Giga Drain+Bug Buzz+Fire Blast with Lum Berry has worked wonders for me. Just saying from experience, you obviously can't play stupid with Volcarona. She still needs support. However, getting Volcarona in and getting a Dance is easier than you think it would be :)

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Jellicent Max Special Defense beats Starmie. Jellicent is 3hko against starmie Jellicent is 2hko with Shadow ball and unless they predict jellicent switch in with thunderbolt and even that with life orb you can just outstall with recover after rocks and maybe spikes. If it's leftover Starmie recover/shadow ball should outstall starmie. Rain team usually uses tentacruel instead of Starmie so it's unlikely one run's into a starmie that uses thunder.

Even if the spinner win's the engagement, they're very likely to be weakened enough where you can just revenge kill and save the hazards.

Metagross overall its that great in this meta, honestly I am surprised anyone uses agility at all, I think all the sweepers bar Terrakion and Salamence can take a hit from metagross, your better off using trick room reunicles to piss off hyper offense.

Metagross isn't F tier because it still has a tiny little niche or being able to take A HIT from a special attacker and hit them back in return. Tanks have a hard time in this offensive meta because few peopel carry just one offensive pokemon. Sure your metagross stop one, but then they have another to break through. Still it is a solid pokemon to set up rocks, check Lati@s and Tornadus, and a steel type all in one. So if your team needs all of that in one specific pokemon, metagross isn't a bad choice.

Its something to say about OU's highly competitively enviroment, when the "worst" pokemon in it still because bad people still think its good, is still is a solid pokemon overall.

Metagross can run a defensive set in the rain to counter tornadus-t, tyranitar, jirachi lati@s, scizor, kyurem, toxicroak, and deo-d... Tornadus only does like 25-30% with hurricane while metagross gets a clean 2HKO with an uninvested ice punch. That's something I guess. A set with Meteor mash/Ice punch/earthquake/Toxic is pretty solid. What defensive metagross has over jirachi is larger physical defense which lets it wall tyranitar and toxicroak. 252/252+ careful is most ideal, it's really the only niche metagross has. It's not a bad one though.

About Jolteon, I think it's quite underrated. First of all, it's quite possibly the best answer to Electric-type threats that aren't immune to Ground. Switch in on an Electric-type attack and use Hidden Power Ground, and you're good to go. It's also great against Special walls such as Jellicent. Choice Specs Thunder has a 97% chance to OHKO Jellicent. Jolteon is just fine where it is.

Moderator

Tyranitar is horribly Fighting-weak, and is also weak to U-turn (hello Genesect, Torn-T, and Keldeo). Tyranitar also does jack-shit to stop Deoxys-D from getting hazards up unless you're Banded for the 2HKO on Crunch, in which case he still gets Rocks and a layer of Spikes up, more if he switches out once you've revealed that you're locked into Crunch.

I do like how you ignore how Hippowdon also gives SpDef support to Terrakion, not that it matters because Rain shits on everything else anyway.

Hippowdon has immense bulk, more physical than Tyranitar has, and if you want Tyranitar to be comparably bulky, you sacrifice all that offense you were praising.

Hippowdon has recovery and phazing, two things which Tyranitar lacks, but probably couldn't use anyway because sneezing on it with any physical Fighting-type attack breaks it in two (Alakazam also OHKOs with LO Focus Blast and virtually any previous damage, like Rocks).

Now, completely ignoring how Sand is mostly dead in favor of Sun and Rain (I haven't seen it recently), Tyranitar's niche has been usurped by Hippowdon, as Tyranitar doesn't do bulky half as well (you could argue he does SpDef better, but that hardly helps when Keldeo, for the third time, shits on him with Secret Sword) and using him for offense is foolish when so many Pokémon can come in like nothing happened and out-speed and OHKO, giving weather control over to your opponent.

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I don't want to be the troublemaker here, but Tyranitar has Roar and Dragon Tail, so actually he can phaze.
I agree Ttar should be higher, I'm not gonna argue much, but let's not forget the immense gap of versatility between Hippowdonw and Ttar.
Anyway, in fact let's forget the possible competition between the two Sand makers, I don' t feel like they must switch place, but Ttar should be higher for his insane stats, his movepool (physical/special, SR setter..), his ability to summon Sand.

After giving it some thought, I think Magnezone should be moved down to C rank. It can only effectively trap a limited range of Pokemon, is pitifully slow and is easily KOd by many of the strong attacks thrown around in OU. This isn't to say it is a bad Pokemon: it just has a very restricted niche that is only utilisable on particular teams - it ends up being dead weight when it is not required that it removes slow Steels such as Skarmory, Forretress and Ferrothorn.

Though they can similarly be dead weight sometimes, Dugtrio and Gothitelle are justified in B rank because they can trap a more diverse range of Pokemon; the former especially is key to the successful execution of many team strategies, especially those based around weather.

As Magneton is as equally viable as Magnezone thanks to being faster with a Choice Scarf, I think it should also be added to C rank.

I agree about Magnezone being a bit over it's head on B, most of the pokemon it targets are either B pokemon themselves, or some threats he cannot trap legitimately. It has a niche and it performs well enough, but the niche itself is not nearly as important.

What does Magneton achieve when using Choice Scarf that an scarfed Magnezone fails to do?

About Jolteon, I think it's quite underrated. First of all, it's quite possibly the best answer to Electric-type threats that aren't immune to Ground. Switch in on an Electric-type attack and use Hidden Power Ground, and you're good to go. It's also great against Special walls such as Jellicent. Choice Specs Thunder has a 97% chance to OHKO Jellicent. Jolteon is just fine where it is.

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Imho, Hidden Power Ground is somewhat wasted on Jolteon because you forfeit the boltbeam-coverage with hidden power ice or the clean OHKO against water/ground as well as hitting rotom-w hard with hidden power grass. Also, Electric types in general aren't that common in OU. In terms of usage statistics, the most-used electric type who isn't immune to ground is on place 34, and it's Jolteon himself, so you basically just use it to win mirror matches. And to use Jellicent as an example for wallbreaking power because Thunder kills it doesn't really make sense to me, either. Blissey/Chansey still walls it all day long & with hidden power ground, thundurus get's even more threatening, as well as dragons.

Agreeing again that Magnezone should be moved down. It's really ineffective in this metagame; Genesect and Heatran dominate in terms of Steel types and Mag can't trap either of them. All of the other Steel types bar Skarmory have ways of flat out beating it or else escaping it. It just doesn't do enough any more to justify being higher than C rank.

Oh yeah, and Tornadus-T for S rank. I know I'm just covering old ground, but in this metagame it isn't exactly difficult to keep Rain up. Even outside of Rain it would be considered A rank; in Rain its widely acknowledged to be one of the top two threats in the metagame. It's powerful, it outspeeds fricking everything, it can't be worn down, and thanks to U-turn even Zapdos and Rotom-W aren't particularly solid counters.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.

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Stoutland has a very good niche given the fact it is only one or two viable unbanned Sand Rush Pokemon in OU, and only really needs Sand to perform well. It can easily break through offensive teams without a Steel type or can at least deal a significant amount of damage in the process. On par with Venusaur, it's by far one of the more threatening weather abusers and there's very few 'mons that actually do it as well as Stoutland.

As for the Hippowdon vs Tyranitar argument, I think the placement is just fine where it is. The current metagame really doesn't benefit Tyranitar at all, especially with the increase of opposing weather teams with Dugtrio. The only thing it really has over Hippowdon is the extra special defense boost under Sand, but Hippowdon can even run a Specially Defensive set to check what Tyranitar beats (Lati@s, Gengar, Heatran) while also not losing out to Terrakion and Genesect. Not to mention Hippowdon can also setup Stealth Rock just like Tyranitar, but not being Dugtrio bait, has reliable recovery, not U-Turn weak and doesn't share the same fighting / ground weakness either.

I know that offensive teams aren't the only teams here, but most teams are offensive, and Tyranitar fits much better on the offensive playstyle than Hippowdon. I tried to use an offensive team with Hippowdon and failed, and I don't know anyone that succeeded. Don't forget that Tyranitar can easily defeat Lati@s, while Hippowdon, on other hand, is defeated by them if it doesn't run a Specially Defensive set, and even then it can't do much back... Phaze them? Toxic them? Hit them with Ice Fang?

However I must admit that the low speed and multitude of weakness that Tyranitar have means that unless you are using a offensive team, Hippowdon is the better option. It is much harder to use Tyranitar nowadays, but it is still a solid sandstorm inducer and has many advantages over Hippowdon. Don't say that its only advantage is the Special Defense boost, as this isn't true.

Overall the metagame wasn't a benefit, not only for Tyranitar, but for sandstorm teams in general.

Magneton is a niche pokemon at best because its a better choice scarf pokemon than Magnezone. If tiered it should be D tier at best C, and that is pushing it.

I honestly don't think we should include relatively uncommon niche pokemon, or else we would have to tier things like Cresselia, Azumarill, Azelf, Sawsbuck, Quagsire, Arcanine, Gorebyss, Hitmontop, Sandslash, Sharpedo, Tangrowth, Victrebel, and Shaymin. All pokemon I think we can agree do have competitive merit, but are pretty uncommon to be putting on this teir list, and if we did they would all probably end up being C and D tier pokemon.

The only way I could see expanding the ranking list like this, is if we want to add some F tier pokemon so new people can avoid using shit like ninjask and Dusknoir, but that would require a pretty large investment in teiring, the current list would need to nearly double in size.

Tyranitar is horribly Fighting-weak, and is also weak to U-turn (hello Genesect, Torn-T, and Keldeo). Tyranitar also does jack-shit to stop Deoxys-D from getting hazards up unless you're Banded for the 2HKO on Crunch, in which case he still gets Rocks and a layer of Spikes up, more if he switches out once you've revealed that you're locked into Crunch.

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So why has Tyranitar been a top-10 most used pokemon for 3 generations, while Hippowdon is UU/BL? This list fails for having Tyranitar below Hippowdon.

And I assume you can use these same arguments to put Hippowdon into B-Tier as well, considering it loses even harder to Genesect/Tornadus/Keldeo than Tyranitar does, and has literally no chance against Deoxys.

Hippowdon has immense bulk, more physical than Tyranitar has, and if you want Tyranitar to be comparably bulky, you sacrifice all that offense you were praising.

Hippowdon has recovery and phazing, two things which Tyranitar lacks, but probably couldn't use anyway because sneezing on it with any physical Fighting-type attack breaks it in two (Alakazam also OHKOs with LO Focus Blast and virtually any previous damage, like Rocks).

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You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if Hippowdon has recovery and phazing, since it can't do any of those things effectively in OU. Seriously, look at that tier list. What is Hippowdon going to do to 80% of those mons? It can't switch in and it can't hurt them if they switch in. What can you even phaze? Skarmory? wooo big deal.

And regarding the bulk, you guys seriously underestimate Tyranitar. When was the last time you switched Hippowdon into Starmie or Latios? Oh right, never!

I have to agree with jr^6. While Hippo can be a lot bulkier than T-tar and is more likely to outlast the other inducer thanks to Slack Off, he can't actually do much else. He sets up SR, and then all it can do is hit with a decent, but not great, EQ and phaze with Roar/Whirlwind.

T-tar, on the other hand, can do a lot of stuff. CB Ttar wins weather wars by virtue of its fucking massive power. Its CB Stone Edge is the most powerful in OU (lol ramp/archeops); almost nothing wants to take it - even Skarmory is 2HKOed by it. His STAB pursuit lets him take out Lati@s and other psychics.

That's just CB Ttar though - it can also go mixed with its great coverage in Superpower / EQ / Fblast / Ice Beam / whatever, it can set up SR, go full specially defensive or even scarf up to revenge stuff that would otherwise beat it (Gengar, mainly).

There's no B in TyrAnitAr

EDIT: To everyone saying that Ttar loses to Dugtrio - it only loses if Duggy comes in with no SR on its side of the field field or if T-tar is below 60%. Any attack from any Ttar variant will knock Dugtrio out, so it needs its sash to come out on top, and that's not always possible.

Hippowdon has more physical bulk, is not Dugtrio bait, has reliable recovery, generally has more survivability, and has a much, much better tipying in defensive terms.

However Hippowdon only isn't setup bait because it has phazing, but phazing is only a temporary solution and don't stop the last pokémon on a team. And not all Hippowdon have phazing. Alias, it still can't do much outside of phazing since may things are immune to its STAB, and Ice Fang is awfully weak against anything not 4x weak to it. And phazing as jrrrrrrr said above doesn't stop your opponent from setting up hazards. If Tyranitar can't impede Deoxys-D from setting up, nor can Hippowdon, but at least Tyranitar can defeat Deoxys-D so that you can later on the match spin them away and not worry about them again.

Tyranitar is 4x weak to Fighting, and these attacks are much more common nowadays, but Tyranitar always had this weakness, and nonetheless it was always the solid choice for setting weather. Alias, most A-Tier and S-Tier Pokémon to wich Tyranitar loses were already there in BW1. What is hapenning is that with Dugtrio being common on most teams, Tyranitar isn't having a chance unless it has Shed Shell. In this regard, Hippowdon gets the nod, as Dugtrio cannot defeat Hippowdon.

I guess that what is hapenning is that Hippowdon is being preferred by most guys here because it has better survivability than Tyranitar. For this reason it is at Tyranitar's level nowadays. But apart from this, I can't see very much advantages that it has over Tyranitar, as it actually has difficulty trying to hurt the opponent.