- made false or unproven accusations against multiple players and clans

- made personal attacks against multiple players and clans

- excused the above behavior when done by members of their own clan

- mistreated many players, often on the grounds of lack of skill

- on multiple occasions, harassed other people (such as me and the Hysterical Koala) and clans (such as CORP- or in the condescending tone of Norman, "the Lawlz Clan") in threads completely unrelated to M'Hunters, derailing the discussion with uncalled-for personal attacks

- picked a known, egregious, willful ladder cheater (AI) to represent them in the maximum 3 tournaments in Clan League 8, thereby sending the message that- if you're a M'Hunter- you can cheat and get away with no consequences

Or as OxTheArtist summarizes:

slander, multi-accounting, stalling, using alts in RP Clan League, public embarrassment, circlejerking, calling other clans "mental problem" clans, arrogance, trying to get our weaker players compete for other clans because they can't get in our own lineup, adamant disrespect, and telling other people to surrender

I'm sure that others also have had bad experiences with and have experienced uncalled-for insults from the members and leaders of M'Hunters, and would appreciate it if they shared it here for the skeptics and for those people who've been lucky enough to escape their harassment.

Clearly, our community has had a problem with its norms. Most of you would agree that behavior on the forums (as an example) has become generally unacceptable and the quality has declined. Back when we had the choice to actually confront the sort of behavior that today often keeps us from enjoying posting in the forum, we decided we'd rather be comfortable and not create drama. Well, bad behavior often has incentives- for example, people cheat because it helps them win. When we don't confront that bad behavior, we in effect condone it because it's going to keep on happening until there's a strong enough set of disincentives. As a consequence of our inaction... these forums have significantly declined in quality, respectfulness. They've gone from a place where we once came for help, insight, and bonding to an unwelcoming place overwhelmed by personal attacks, harassment, abuse, and spam. And we let them become this place. We made the wrong choice because it was easy.

Today we have another such choice, to act to protect and establish beneficial norms for another part of the community. We have the opportunity to create disincentives against the sort of behavior that damages the community today and will continue to damage it in the future. Or we can do what's easy, avoid the discomfort of drama and controversy, and let the community decline as misbehavior becomes a new norm.

I'm asking you to create those disincentives and encourage the M'Hunters to reform themselves, stop their habit of abusing other players and clans, and to stop letting their members get away with egregiously bad behavior- to send them a message: "Yes, you're a great player, but that doesn't mean it's okay for you to behave this way."

I strongly request that, as members of this community- the people who both stand to benefit from a stronger culture of respect and good behavior and the people most capable of creating that culture- we take action by excluding M'Hunters members (or at least the ones who behave badly, including- but not limited to- AyanM, Norman, AI, and Rogue Nikolai Krogius) from inter-clan events and other large Community Events. Events like Clan League have removed clans in the past for undesirable behavior- like poor organization and lots of boots. These events and their organizers have the power to shape the future of the community and by refusing to take action, they only allow things to get worse.

@Nikolai: No. On my end, I'm settling it by banning all members of M'Hunters from IPL when I release it this Sunday.

On your end, you can settle this by doing your part to improve your clan's behavior instead of making personal attacks every time it's criticized.

I like how your response to a message of "being good at a game doesn't give you a license to be an asshole" is to create a game to challenge me. Because clearly, if you're able to beat me there, the personal attacks you've been making against people like me should continue to go unchecked.

- made false or unproven accusations against multiple players and clans

- made personal attacks against multiple players and clans

- excused the above behavior when done by members of their own clan

- mistreated many players, often on the grounds of lack of skill

- on multiple occasions, harassed other people (such as AI) and clans (such as Mh, or in knyte's words, the "cheating clan") in threads completely unrelated to knyte or his clan, derailing the discussion with uncalled-for personal attacks and spam

I'm sure that others also have had bad experiences with and have experienced uncalled-for insults from knyte, and would appreciate it if they shared it here for the skeptics and for those people who've been lucky enough to escape their harassment.

Clearly, our community has had a problem with its norms. Most of you would agree that behavior on the forums has become generally unacceptable and the quality has declined. Back when we had the choice to actually confront the sort of behavior that today often keeps us from enjoying posting in the forum, we decided we'd rather be comfortable and not create drama. Well, bad behavior often has incentives- for example, people blame others because it makes up for their own inadequacies and ideological ego trips. When we don't confront that bad behavior, we in effect condone it because it's going to keep on happening until there's a strong enough set of disincentives.

And I'm asking you to create those disincentives and encourage knyte to reform himself, stop his habit of abusing other players and clans, and to stop letting him get away with egregiously bad behavior- to send him a message: "Yes, you're a great contributor to the community, but that doesn't mean it's okay for you to behave this way."

I strongly request that, as members of this community- the people who both stand to benefit from a stronger culture of respect and good behavior and the people most capable of creating that culture- we take action by excluding knyte(or at least the ones who behave badly, including- but not limited to- knyte) from inter-clan events and other large Community Events. Events like Clan League have removed clans in the past for undesirable behavior- like poor organization and lots of boots. These events and their organizers have the power to shape the future of the community and by refusing to take action, they only allow things to get worse.

This isn't about me. Honestly, I'd be fine with this community enforcing norms even when it's against me. I fully acknowledge that I've been a troll and a jerk in the past. And I appreciate that people have been quick to criticize me for it.

Early on, I was like y'all, making personal attacks against Genghis or Juq for being "non-contributors" as if that's what determined the truth of their claims. I realized that kind of response didn't make me right; it just made me more of an asshole.

But it's up to Belgium to actually take action against Belgian terrorists. Everyone expects them to do.

Sure, sometimes countries don't take actions against terrorists. Afghanistan under Taliban rule, for example, didn't. Iraq doesn't today. That's their prerogative. And it's also our prerogative to take action against them for condoning terrorism.

This isn't just about AI, either. As you can see in the top post, we're talking about multiple incidents of mean-spirited and harmful behavior. Like I said, M'Hunters aren't inherently a bad clan- they're not the DARKLORDS or some organized troll group. They've made their contributions to the community (Norman's strategy guide is A++) and have plenty of great people (TBest for one)... but they also have a problem that they're ignoring, sometimes promoting- and that problem needs to be fixed because it's hurting the community.

I just read through those multiple pages, and I think this is a classic example of M'Hunters toxic community. Within the past few months, AI cheated on the ladder, we can all agree to this statement yes?, and within that thread we had M'Hunters attacking knyte for calling out AI yes?, its literally quotable atm. This is followed by knyte recently pointing out that AI was just given max spots on the CL Roster after this came to light, which suggests to outsiders that you are quite okay with ladder cheating, as those slots are quite valuable, as you are now a representative of your clan. This development, along with the admission that the sole punishment for ladder cheating, which is a major and ban-able offense, was censure from the skype chat suggests you really don't care about the external community. Then there is the case that you basically trash talk everyone else, which is not very upholding of sportsmanship values that would be expected of any one playing this game in any way shape or form. This combination suggest to anyone outside the community that the external community doesn't matter to you, and you are totally willing to make it as toxic as necessary to protect a convicted cheater. While I would say that some of knyte's posts are aimed at M'Hunters/AI, those are the groups in question here, so they should be part of the discussion, what is unnecessary and unwarranted is the attacks on knyte, including the 1v1 game call. Basically we are asking you to be civil within these external forums, and if you can't do that to leave them.

screenshots - (this is from a conversation with Relm talking to a M'H alt he'd discovered)

(Note that the first message was from Zephyrum)

Normally, this kind of thing is a one-off, a bad egg, something that doesn't reflect a whole community. But with the toxic culture of M'Hunters (documented in the extremely personal responses in the thread I linked in my first post here), it probably isn't.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe BlackBart is just completely violating everything the M'Hunters stand for. Maybe the M'Hunters will tell him it's not okay and actually discourage him from doing this in the future. Maybe they'll even go further than just criticizing him once or twice in their private Skype conversation. They're clearly very selective when it comes to player skill, but apparently not so much when it comes to player behavior.

I hope they prove me wrong.

Let's please do our part to tell them that just being good at a game doesn't give you the license to be an asshole.

lvl games are now unnecessary and unwarranted now on a gaming website. You have a beautiful mind.Please read my entire post, you clearly just took something out of context. I stated that the attacks on knyte, including the call to a 1v1 game to prove his argument was unnecessary and unwarranted. How you got the statement that 1v1 games are unnecessary and unwarranted is beyond me. Please stop being toxic, or if you are going to refuse to change your personality on the forums, including attacking people for just stating the facts, just leave, we would prefer a less toxic community.

There is absolutely no evidence in that post that the player was an alt for an MH player. Furthermore, do you really think you can trust a level 9 alt to be truthful about who owns it? Sounds a lot more like somebody hated MH and spammed Zeph.

TBH, you are the last person on planet earth to be calling out flaws. From spewing venom all over Division D thread just to increase the number of posts to plastering your graffiti all over the same thread to increase its post count to handing over MR to hostile actors inside of TLW to operating a horrific troll called NIGHT that rampaged the forums creating numerous idiotic threads, baiting rage, and trolling for weeks.

You forgot about that, didn't you? You are the King of Trolls and you dare to safegaurd the integrity of the forum. Absolutely despicable.

From spewing venom all over Division D thread just to increase the number of posts to plastering your graffiti all over the same thread to increase its post count to handing over MR to hostile actors inside of TLW to operating a horrific troll called NIGHT that rampaged the forums creating numerous idiotic threads, baiting rage, and trolling for weeks

1. We've already established that TLW accusation was wrong. In the CL thread. You read it. You responded to it. At this point you know it's false and yet you continue to slander me. This is what's wrong with your clan.

2. Yes. I was NIGHT. Literally all NIGHT did was crudely imitate certain people like Karl. And yes I was an asshole. Like I said, I made mistakes. I tried to learn from them, and I'm glad people called me out when I did something wrong. I'm just trying to do the same thing for you guys.

But forum spam isn't the same as ladder cheating or harassment. Why does this community constantly yell for moderation when we deal with forum spam yet say "I did it too" or just shrug when it comes to actual cheating and harassing people?

Everything below this is in response to Nikolai's comment before he edited it, where it was just saying I'm attacking him for having a "different point of view."

Norman slandering me and getting away with it because you're not gonna do shit about it isn't the same as "a different point of view."

Harmful behavior is different, but it's not harmful because it's different.

Again, I get it. You're scared of Norman kicking you out like Ben did:

But what you're doing now is just letting Norman continue to harass the rest of us when you actually have the power to do something about it- much more power than I do. Norman doesn't respect me. He doesn't respect Forbidden Knowledge. He doesn't respect many people outside M'H. But you're in M'H. You can at least try to get through to him.

The "Holier than thou" knyte is actually a gigantic troll with no credibility what so ever. Don't pretend to protect the same "community" that you terrorized for weeks on end. You are the ultimate hypocrite.

NIGHT has caused more damage to this community than any M'Hunter ever has. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Forum spam sucks. I was an asshole, and NIGHT was a bad idea. Again, thanks for calling me out over it. I'm glad you did, or I might not have stopped as quickly.

But why does it seem that this community thinks that forum spam is so much worse than ladder cheating and people like Norman (and you now) actually harassing and slandering us with accusations you know to be false? When there's a thread about forum spam, we all scream for moderation and action from Fizzer now! And yet when there's something about ladder cheating or something that's actually really really really bad for us, we just shrug and excuse that behavior. Is it because that kind of behavior comes from elite players? Idk. But this makes no sense.

I didn't hear you debunk my premise. I don't know why anybody even listens to somebody who tore the community apart and then comes back like a two faced bitch and says he wants to heal it. You have no credibility.

NIGHT was bad. NIGHT did not tear the community apart. It was stupid, it was spammy... but I'm disappointed you're saying it "tore the community apart" as if it's worse than Norman and your clan harassing other people and treating us like shit + your clan condoning cheating in multiple places.

I felt compelled to answer your bullshit and I was right to call you out. The fact is that you spammed the forums with stupid, misogynistic, racsist, bigoted comments and promoted hate. And why? For personal enjoyment. You are the lowest form of human being.

How many of the other trolly alts where yours? How many times did you enjoy yourself at the expense of the community?

As a representative from the D division, i can assure you that Knytes input in the main was very appreciated. Whatever his motives for doing the graphs etc. they really added to the enjoyment of the division.

However, to say the clan league is corrupt would be an understatement.No, AI should not have participated, but that's just the start....All these players NOT playing for the clan they belong to makes a mockery of the whole premise of the league.

I have to also say that i believe Knyte is being extremely hypocritical in pointing to AI and his cheating when Semice was allowed to play in HIS team after clan hijackings.

The league is very imperfect, but no point squabbling over the rights and wrongs of the running of it or any particular clan. It's all we have and the community is grateful to have it on the whole

I've linked all my main alts from my profile. Beyond that, there's S A V A G E (L1 unused) and two ChrisCMU's where the profile picture is Carnegie Mellon (unused)

But if you want to be sure, ask Fizzer. He knows which IP addresses I've played from. He can tell you easily.

Until you aren't, please stop making more and more accusations and pretending that it's the same as calling out my "bullshit."

@indibob: I take full responsibility for letting Semice participate. I did internally reprimand him within the clan (he was removed from all leadership positions) but understand that allowing him to represent us still promotes his bad behavior and could've possibly offset the disincentives I created by kicking him out of clan leadership. Apologies on my behalf for that. It seems like I let my friendship and respect for Semice create a blind spot. :/

NIGHT has caused more damage to this community than any M'Hunter ever has. You should be ashamed of yourself. I think your argument in this case lacks great support. Here we have a person having admitted to the fact that A. It caused damage, B. Owning up to their error, and C. now trying to change the community for the better. Compared to an entire clan that has A. Effectively endorsed cheating, as they will go defend AI against all cheating charges, despite the fact that the entire forum at this point knows that he cheated, and what amounts to a slap on the wrist in regards to punishment for the cheating. B. Intentionally trash talks everyone, this is basically trolling, so you've already exceeded NIGHT, congrats. and C. Doesn't attempt to change, even after people have asked for the change, something that knyte has done. In my eyes, the cheating charge alone exceeds anything ever done or doable on these forums that isn't a ban, as you are now endorsing a ban-able offense basically because you are good enough players that you don't have to worry about it. Secondly, you do a lot of trash-talking, which in my view is actually worse than trolling, as trash-talking to me is a sign of bad sportsmanship, and not anyone I would like to be associated with, trolling on the other hand is more handle-able. Then there is the fact that about every 2 posts, you attack the commentators with out of context items, things that commentator has already owned up to, or their lack of skill. While the second item group listed is most commonly a bad thing, they have already recognized their mistake, and have changed their forum act to reflect that error, something that M'Hunters is yet to do. That fact alone makes your group worse, as being able to recognize a mistake and attempt to fix it is a infinite times better than continuously committing the same offense. Please leave the forum if you are not able to be civilized in your responses.