Little Cup Co-Leader

For reasons I've detailed in an earlier post I think Ponyta is at least B. I think the main thing it's got going against it is a mono-fire typing which makes it weak to 2 very common attacking types in ground and water, as well as the omnipresent rock. Regardless it's still a powerful mon with good coverage reliable recovery and a very strong STAB.

As for stunky, im more prone to abstain. It's use is for killing missy. And past that it's percentage of mass that could be considered dead vastly increases. I dont think it should go below C but i dont know where it would belong.

I think machop should be B tier, or maybe even C tier. It's kind of outclassed by Timburr now, and the only thing that really distinguishes the two are stats and the fact that Machop has Dynamic Punch. It hits very hard with Dynamic Punch, but can be easily worn down with status or SE attacks / STAB. It is also beaten by WoW Missy and Offensive Murkrow- the former of which Timburr is not as afraid of. I think that makes it B tier.

I have to say that Koffing is C for the reasons stated in Delver's link but also arguing in a little part:

Koffing also has (barely) reliable recovery in painsplit which immediately puts it LEAGUES AHEAD of Bronzor in this roll.

Click to expand...

Saying that Pain Split is barely reliable recovery is an overstatement, Pain Split won't be helping Koffing in Sand and switching into SR without reliable recovery is just plain bad for a wall. True, Bronzor doesn't even have Pain Split but its resistance to Snover and lack of damage on Sandstorm puts it on top of Koffing as it can provide much better utility than it against many other teams. Having said that, as Bronzor is B, Koffing should naturally be C.

Having used Stunky before, I can say that it's a solid C rank. It takes out pretty much any ghost type and psychic type with ease (Missy and Abra being the most important 2.) But unfortunately it has an awful movepool on the physical side, consisting of only dark moves and Explosion. It's special movepool is a bit better, including dark and poison STAB moves as well as Fire Blast / Flamethrower, but it's Special Attack isn't great by any means.

It hits 17 speed though, which is pretty fast and it has access to taunt which is pretty overlooked. It can stop Dweeble from getting hazards and stop Scraggy and other fighting types from setting up if they switch in.

Little Cup Co-Leader

I think machop should be B tier, or maybe even C tier. It's kind of outclassed by Timburr now, and the only thing that really distinguishes the two are stats and the fact that Machop has Dynamic Punch. It hits very hard with Dynamic Punch, but can be easily worn down with status or SE attacks / STAB. It is also beaten by WoW Missy and Offensive Murkrow- the former of which Timburr is not as afraid of. I think that makes it B tier.

Click to expand...

To be honest I see Machop as more of a C or even D. I really don't see the point in running it. If you want to run the scarf set, then Mienfoo's access to U-turn outclasses it in this department. If you want to run the Bulk Up set, I find Timburr's ability to take Will-O-wisps is much more useful than NoGuard Dynamic Punch and Timburr gets Drain Punch (Machop doesn't get Drain Punch wtf?). If you do want to run Guts on Machop then it's only niche in No Guard Dynamic Punch is lost, so again you may as well run Timburr who has Drain Punch.

To be honest I see Machop as more of a C or even D. I really don't see the point in running it. If you want to run the scarf set, then Mienfoo's access to U-turn outclasses it in this department. If you want to run the Bulk Up set, I find Timburr's ability to take Will-O-wisps is much more useful than NoGuard Dynamic Punch and Timburr gets Drain Punch (Machop doesn't get Drain Punch wtf?). If you do want to run Guts on Machop then it's only niche in No Guard Dynamic Punch is lost, so again you may as well run Timburr who has Drain Punch.

Click to expand...

All of this with the addition of mienfoo's scarf set having access to the much more powerful HJK. Machop was a beast last gen but this one he's just outclassed by new comers. I agree with D TBH.

EDIT: It is worth noting that Scarf Machop has acess to some confuse hax which can get annoying for your opponent, but No Gaurd is a double edged sword that lowers his survivability, lowering his "dodge chance" of poweful moves like hydropump etc. On the whole, Mienfoo's scarf set is more consistent thanks to regenerator being way too good, acess to momentum holding uturns to deal with the omnipresent ghost switches, and a stronger stab in HJK.

I haven't seen anything about Shroomish so far, so I'd like to bring it up for discussion (As a A/B Pokémon). It's often regarded as a worse version of Foongus, but it really is a great Pokémon. Foongus is better in a way because it has a great ability in Regenerator, and a Fighting resist, but the reason I love Shroomish so much is because of the ground resist. Shroomish can stop Drilbur like nobody's business. Drilburs X-Scissor does 40%, and Shroomish can Giga Drain back. Shroomish also gets access to Spore, Stun Spore, Giga Drain, Synthesis, Toxic, Leech Seed, Substitute, and Protect, giving it quite a nice move pool. It can be good on teams, as it stop Drilbur in it's tracks when it's on apposing teams, and they don't have Drilbur, it can status everything.

To be honest I see Machop as more of a C or even D. I really don't see the point in running it. If you want to run the scarf set, then Mienfoo's access to U-turn outclasses it in this department. If you want to run the Bulk Up set, I find Timburr's ability to take Will-O-wisps is much more useful than NoGuard Dynamic Punch and Timburr gets Drain Punch (Machop doesn't get Drain Punch wtf?). If you do want to run Guts on Machop then it's only niche in No Guard Dynamic Punch is lost, so again you may as well run Timburr who has Drain Punch.

Click to expand...

Machop has CC and bsically the same stats as timburr. However, it seems like a C ranker.

It shares the highest special attack in LC together with abra and also it's excellent ability Magic Guard. Unfortunately it's overshadowed by it's laughable 20 base speed.

However much like it's evolved forms it's a great user of Trick Room. It can work as a standalone pokemon, being able to risk using a life orb with greater bulk to have a niche over Abra.
It's much better when pared up with slower pokemon though.
By giving it a focus sash it will almost certainly get a Trick Room up. Which is great for trick room teams which often has a problem with setup sweepers. After trick room it will outspeed everything and hit extremely hard, usually forcing the opponent to try and get rid of it quickly. Giving more turns for other dangerous Trick Room sweepers such as Trapinch to continue the rampage.

I think Solosis should be out of E-rank but C seems like pushing it too much.

While E-rank is home of other Trick Room setters (Shuppet, Ralts) and Trick Room abusers (Whismur), Solosis should be in D just because it can set TR and abuse it itself making him a good cleaner late game.

I'm not agreing with C because Trick Room is just so easy to stall out with just 5 turns. Also, there are a lot of Priorities in LC: Pranksters, Aqua Jet, Sucker Punchers, Ice Sharders and, most importantly, Fake Out Regenerator Mienfoo who can just switch in and out and then deal massive damage with U-turn when TR goes out.

Anyway, Solosis has a good niche by itself and I think it deserves to be a little higher.

While I'm at it, Trapinch should join Whismur in E-rank as Trick Room abuser: D-rank is a lot for a thing with poor movepool, weak and low priority and also, to top it all, as a trapper it's very much outclassed by the fast Diglett. E-rank (Solosis is E and Trapinch is D? WTF?)

fat Skittle said:

I haven't seen anything about Shroomish so far, so I'd like to bring it up for discussion (As a A/B Pokémon). It's often regarded as a worse version of Foongus, but it really is a great Pokémon. Foongus is better in a way because it has a great ability in Regenerator, and a Fighting resist, but the reason I love Shroomish so much is because of the ground resist. Shroomish can stop Drilbur like nobody's business. Drilburs X-Scissor does 40%, and Shroomish can Giga Drain back. Shroomish also gets access to Spore, Stun Spore, Giga Drain, Synthesis, Toxic, Leech Seed, Substitute, and Protect, giving it quite a nice move pool. It can be good on teams, as it stop Drilbur in it's tracks when it's on apposing teams, and they don't have Drilbur, it can status everything.

Click to expand...

And, to spice discussion here (going against the current really fires things up :D): I'm really thorn regarding Shroomish: as a pure Grass-type I think Prankster Cottonee does a better job: Priority Stun Spore against Drilbur and Encore to laugh at Earthquake and Swords Dance. On the other hand, Poison Heal is just great on it.

A-rank is too much, B-rank seems plausible but Cottonee is already a B-rank and Shroomish's only advantage over it is its immunity to Toxic which can be stopped by Priority Sub... C-rank for Shroomish

I would use Shroomish over Cottonee any day honestly. Cottonee's biggest problem is that it doesn't have recovery outside of spamming giga drain and leech seed (for some reason like half of them I see don't even carry giga drain? Why I have no idea.) It even has less bulk than Shroomish. Shroomish has synthesis, which is better than nothing, and altough Stun Spore is nice, Spore on Shroomish is just as good if not better. Most things that will switch in on Cottonee don't really care about Paralysis, the only exceptions I can think of are probably Murkrow and Ponyta, but I think most people think twice about those switches anyway. Stuff like Croagunk, Ferroseed, Lileep, Larvesta, etc. couldn't care less about Stun Spore. Any Grass type walls it, and they don't care about Stun Spore like I said, but that also means switching in a grass type walls it's recovery, and that is really, really bad since the only thing it can do against a grass type is Stun Spore them or Taunt them, none of which really wears them down in the long run.

Cottonee doesn't carry Giga Drain because it sucks. It has so many other good moves to use.

Shroomish doesn't check half of what Cottonee can check. You are downplaying the benefits of Prankster a lot, especially Encore. Encore Cottonee single-handedly shuts down every setup sweeper in the metagame, from Shell Smash users to DD Scraggy to SD Drilbur to NP Misdreavus. Shroomish can check exactly one of them with Spore, and some like Clamperl and Shellder just bulldoze right over it regardless. Stun Spore is also better than what you give it credit for, and although Spore is better, priority Stun Spore can shut down a lot more stuff since there is no paralysis clause. It also means that Cottonee isn't useless against Fire-types and Snover, since it can actually do something meaningful before it dies. There's also that 25% chance to skip a turn thing paralysis does, and no one likes that, especially bulky walls that can be 2HKOed if they can't Recover or Protect every turn.

With the exception of Spore, all those niche moves you mentioned are not good at all. Shroomish has an Attack stat one point higher than Cottonee's and the same Special Attack, so it is every bit as offensively inert. Worry Seed and Fake Tears are a waste of a turn that you could be using for Giga Drain for dealing a bit of damage, Toxicing something while they pummel you, or thinking of a better use for Shroomish's teamslot. Spore and Synthesis are Shroomish's only advantages over Cottonee, who has Prankster, priority Stun Spore, Substitute, Encore, Taunt, Memento, Toxic, and even Switcheroo and Sunny Day.

I would like to add that Shroomish's Spore and better overall power / bulk AND its access to Poison Heal make it stand out enough from cottonee, imho. I agree that Shroomish should be moved to b tier. Cottonee and Shroomish's SubSeed sets both have advantages / disadvantages. Cottonee gets priority, as well as encore, and an open slot for HP Fire to hit grass types (weakly but still.) Shroomish, on the other hand, gets Spore, which is as good, if not better, at creating free turns for setup. Shroomish also gets Poison Heal, which is awesome as it provides more healing and an immunity to status, which Cottonee has to be wary of when switching in.

Shroomish's Evio set also has things that differentiate it positively from Foongus. It doesn't resist Fighting but in exchange it resists Ground, which is awesome when trying to handle Sand. Shroomish gets Poison Heal, again which gives it an immunity to Toxic (which Foongus already has but Shroomish heals from it and can switch into other statuses afterwards) Shroomish also has better physical bulk, which is what both are mainly used for walling. Foongus is probably preffered because it hits harder and resists Fighting and has Regenerator- but keep in mind, Foongus is A tier, and Shroomish comes in a very very close second.

Tldr Shroomish's good bulk, decent SpA, access to Spore, resistance to Ground, and ability in Poison Heal give it the tools to stand out from the rest of the tier's grass types for a solid spot in B tier.

If Shroomish packs Fake Tears it will beat a ton of common walls that switch into it (Lileep, Porygon, Bronzor, etc. ) 1 on 1, something Cottonee can't do, Cottonee will never win against something like Porygon. In the least Fake tears gets them to switch or take heavy damage, which is more than Cottonee does to it's checks.

Yes, Encore discourages Setup, but Cottonee relies on getting in safely (ie you need to predict whether or not Axew or Scraggy will use Dragon Dance when you switch it in for it to work) and in the process you might just be eating a Hi Jump Kick or an Outrage - health that Cottonee won't be able to get back.

Cottonee is so easy to play around because it's so predicable. A U-turn user and a grass type is really all you need (or even two U-tuners) and Cottonee is doing literally nothing but kill itself. When I see Cottonee I do the same exact thing everytime - immediately switch to Larvesta(or thing that has U-turn) while it Subs/Encores/Leech Seeds and then U-turn to Chikorita. Larvesta might get paralyzed, but Chikorita comes in, prevents it from recovering, uses Aromatherapy, and I go back to larvesta, and repeat the process. Cottonee literally kills itself because it can't regain the health it uses for a sub. (This is just an example but you get my point)

It's so easy to wall it's ridiculous. Stun Spore doesn't stop the walls that can deal with it all day long. No one is going to switch their Drifloon into Cottonee just to have it stun spored. Similarly, if I have an Axew or something and I dragon dance when Cottonee comes in, I am not staying in. Even if you predict this and use Sub/ Leech Seed, you still don't get anywhere if there is a grass type or a wall comes in, you might even lose health if you decide to Sub.

So then you can say that Cottonee discourages setup, which it does to an extent, but if set up sweepers aren't setting up, they're attacking and most of those attacks Cottonee can't switch into.

If Shroomish packs Fake Tears it will beat a ton of common walls that switch into it (Lileep, Porygon, Bronzor, etc. ) 1 on 1, something Cottonee can't do, Cottonee will never win against something like Porygon. In the least Fake tears gets them to switch or take heavy damage, which is more than Cottonee does to it's checks.

Yes, Encore discourages Setup, but Cottonee relies on getting in safely (ie you need to predict whether or not Axew or Scraggy will use Dragon Dance when you switch it in for it to work) and in the process you might just be eating a Hi Jump Kick or an Outrage - health that Cottonee won't be able to get back.

Cottonee is so easy to play around because it's so predicable. A U-turn user and a grass type is really all you need (or even two U-tuners) and Cottonee is doing literally nothing but kill itself. When I see Cottonee I do the same exact thing everytime - immediately switch to Larvesta(or thing that has U-turn) while it Subs/Encores/Leech Seeds and then U-turn to Chikorita. Larvesta might get paralyzed, but Chikorita comes in, prevents it from recovering, uses Aromatherapy, and I go back to larvesta, and repeat the process. Cottonee literally kills itself because it can't regain the health it uses for a sub.

It's so easy to wall it's ridiculous. Stun Spore doesn't stop the walls that can deal with it all day long. No one is going to switch their Drifloon into Cottonee just to have it stun spored. Similarly, if I have an Axew or something and I dragon dance when Cottonee comes in, I am not staying in. Even if you predict this and use Sub/ Leech Seed, you still don't get anywhere if there is a grass type or a wall comes in, you might even lose health if you decide to Sub.

So then you can say that Cottonee discourages setup, which it does to an extent, but if set up sweepers aren't setting up, they're attacking and most of those attacks Cottonee can't switch into.

Click to expand...

I'll reply paragraph by paragraph:

What are you giving up for Fake Tears? Obviously not Spore or Giga Drain, so you choose between Synthesis and Toxic / Stun Spore. Most likely it will be Toxic, so say goodbye to damaging opposing Grass- and Flying-types. Lileep and Porygon have reliable recovery and actually good attacking stats to hit you back, while Bronzor resists Giga Drain and sets up all over you. Why not switch out rather than waste two turns using Fake Tears and then a still relatively weak attack? Is that really better than Cottonee's Taunt, which prevents them from doing their job, instead of "beating" them with Giga Drain? Oh, and by the way, Cottonee learns Fake Tears too and has the same Special Attack stat as Shroomish. What's stopping it from running the same set? I believe it's because it has better things to do.

Prediction goes both ways, so yes Cottonee will lose every once in a while. What sets it apart from other bad predictions though is that it isn't useless as soon as it makes a bad prediction. Cottonee can just pop off a sacrificial Stun Spore and cripple something before going down, which is still doing its job. Yes, Scraggy has Shed Skin, but assuming it stays paralyzed for at least one turn, it's forced out next turn for sure. Axew is even worse off since it's locked in and has no way of ridding itself of the paralysis.

I see you have a detailed plan to counter a threat. How does this make Cottonee easy to play around for everybody? Teams without Grass-types are common, and probably 90% of teams aren't running Heal Bell/Aromatherapy. Everyone is always ranting off about how Scraggy is such a dangerous setup sweeper, but I have literally never had a problem with it. That doesn't make Scraggy a bad Pokemon at all. You've got everything that shuts down Cottonee in one team: A Grass-type, a U-turner, and Aromatherapy, so of course you in particular won't have an issue with it. Even so, your Aromatherapy play is stopped entirely by Taunt, so what then?

What you just described is Cottonee forcing out a +1/+1 Axew into a Grass-type that is as much walled by Cottonee as you wall it. Cottonee loses nothing by switching out, except maybe Substitute recoil, while you lost a sweeping opportunity. Who cares if Cottonee is forced out? It's very existence makes setting up not an option.

If set-up sweepers aren't setting up, they aren't doing their job. Hurting Cottonee helps them maneuver towards their goal, but they still aren't setting up any time soon.

Cottonee can just pop off a sacrificial Stun Spore and cripple something before going down, which is still doing its job.

Click to expand...

Just getting a stun spore off is, yeah great and all, but not jusifiable for a slot on a team. The cool thing about Cottonee, though, is that it basically says no to absolutely everything that can set up ever thanks to prankster. Scraggy comes in on your bronzor? No prob, just switch the Dance and encore it, uturn to a counter. And that scenario repeats itself for literally every sweeper until you replace bronzor with something that isnt terrible (jokes! gosh im funny). Didja get hit on the switch? ouch that sucks cause you'll probably be 2hko'd. using scraggy as an example again, you can just encore the drain punch and switch to a ghost, ortoxic/stunspore, or leech seed (probably safer due to shed skin) to limit its sweep. Like Hawkstar said, its less punishing for being out predicted or pressured into a move than the other grass types

Someone brought up the point of "superior bulk" that shroomish has, and yeah it does have a litttle better bulk (mostly in the form of more HP and access to "reliable" recover. however, neither are 2hko'd by Scraggy's unboosted drain punch. I'm honestly too lazy too look up other things, but thats a fairly powerful neutral hit from one of the more common setup sweepers. Basically, where cottonee shines brightest, the only thing shroomish as on it, is negligible.

At the end of it all, cottonee sacrifices the ability to check more offensive threats that dont set up, with the rare ability to cover 1 metric shit ton of threats . Being able to do that is a collossal advantage in the LC metagame which revolves around being able to check multiple mons using a single slot. losing the ability to spore a Krow w/o insomnia or similiar such immediate threat is no where near equal to the sheer numbers of things cottonee gives you an insurance on. Looking strictly in a vacuum setting, Cottonee is the better mon. In practice, I think its like comparing apples to oranges. Shroomish can handle immediate threats that dont take the time to dance or smash more easily than Cottonee, but has a harder time dealing with set-up threats once they've begun. Conversley, Cottonee, handles set up sweepers with much more ease while retaining the ability to handle some immediate threats given enough skill and prediction. Its also worth mentioning everything Shroomish can do Foongus can do better, its only advantage being the lack of a poison type. Which is also Foongus's main advantage. Go fighting resist.

Cottonee doesn't run Fake Tears because you said it yourself that giga drain is useless, and gives up spots, it can't even have an attacking move, which makes it lose to taunt. You could say "Well, taunt them before they taint me" but stuff like Stunky isn't the most obvious user of taunt, and Vullaby beats you whether you taunt it or not and doesn't care about paralysis.

Shroomish on the other hand, can make use of Fake Tears.

Hide(Move your mouse to the hide area to reveal the content)Show HideHide Hide

Lileep is losing, no matter what way you spin it. Keep in mind that Ancient Power only has 8 PP and Shroomish heals from toxic and recovers off the damage easily. What does Cottonee do against Lileep? You can taunt it, but then you just get hit by Ancient Power which can do upwards of 28% which is health you are not getting back. If Lileep comes in everytime Cottonee does, Cottonee WILL lose to Lileep rather quickly.

Hide(Move your mouse to the hide area to reveal the content)Show HideHide Hide

Probably really boring to go through, but Shroomish will still end up winning in the long run against Bronzor. Cottonee taunts it, which helps but even bronzor's attacks will chip away at it.

Encoring setup is pretty risky since you must switch in at the right time. If you succeed once, you probably aren't going to do it again because something like Scraggy will just Drain Punch or Hi Jump Kick when it comes in on a lileep or bronzor. You risk getting hit pretty hard to the point where it is very difficult to get that back. In reality, There are only a few common set up sweepers in LC: Scraggy, Axew, Tirtouga, Pawinard, Timburr, Missy, Shellder, and Tirtouga (maybe I'm missing one or two, but that's not really a lot.) Encoring will only get you so far in LC. What you can't encore you're saying "Well I'll just Stun Spore it!" doesn't really work against most bulkier teams around.

Someone brought up the point of "superior bulk" that shroomish has, and yeah it does have a litttle better bulk (mostly in the form of more HP and access to "reliable" recover. however, neither are 2hko'd by Scraggy's unboosted drain punch. I'm honestly too lazy too look up other things, but thats a fairly powerful neutral hit from one of the more common setup sweepers. Basically, where cottonee shines brightest, the only thing shroomish as on it, is negligible.

Click to expand...

Not being 2HKO'd with recovery is one thing, but not being 2HKO'd with no recovery is completely different. Cottonee must be at full heath or near full health to check setup because it risks taking hits and it's health it's not going to get back.

Its also worth mentioning everything Shroomish can do Foongus can do better

Click to expand...

Why do people say this? This is so wrong, Foongus has just plain inferior defensive stats than Foongus. It is NOT taking Earthquakes any time soon, even with regenerator. Foongus is kind of like Koffing in that yes it has a fighting type resistance...but what does it do back? Giga Drain really doesn't scare any fighting type away and sends them running to the hills. Stuff like Slowpoke, Vullaby, and Missy are just more powerful or can hit them super effectively. Mienfoo Knocks off it's eviolite and just U-turns out when you come in on Drain Punch or Fake Out. Giga Draining it isn't doing anything to it. The only fighting type that I can see being scared of Foongus is Timburr. Almost any other Fighting type like Croagunk doesn't really care about it.

Cottonee doesn't run Fake Tears because you said it yourself that giga drain is useless, and gives up spots, it can't even have an attacking move, which makes it lose to taunt. You could say "Well, taunt them before they taint me" but stuff like Stunky isn't the most obvious user of taunt, and Vullaby beats you whether you taunt it or not and doesn't care about paralysis.

Shroomish on the other hand, can make use of Fake Tears.

Hide(Move your mouse to the hide area to reveal the content)Show HideHide Hide

Lileep is losing, no matter what way you spin it. Keep in mind that Ancient Power only has 8 PP and Shroomish heals from toxic and recovers off the damage easily. What does Cottonee do against Lileep? You can taunt it, but then you just get hit by Ancient Power which can do upwards of 28% which is health you are not getting back. If Lileep comes in everytime Cottonee does, Cottonee WILL lose to Lileep rather quickly.

Hide(Move your mouse to the hide area to reveal the content)Show HideHide Hide

Probably really boring to go through, but Shroomish will still end up winning in the long run against Bronzor. Cottonee taunts it, which helps but even bronzor's attacks will chip away at it.

Encoring setup is pretty risky since you must switch in at the right time. If you succeed once, you probably aren't going to do it again because something like Scraggy will just Drain Punch or Hi Jump Kick when it comes in on a lileep or bronzor. You risk getting hit pretty hard to the point where it is very difficult to get that back. In reality, There are only a few common set up sweepers in LC: Scraggy, Axew, Tirtouga, Pawinard, Timburr, Missy, Shellder, and Tirtouga (maybe I'm missing one or two, but that's not really a lot.) Encoring will only get you so far in LC. What you can't encore you're saying "Well I'll just Stun Spore it!" doesn't really work against most bulkier teams around.

Have you ever used Cottonee? Because it doesn't even learn U-turn...

Not being 2HKO'd with recovery is one thing, but not being 2HKO'd with no recovery is completely different. Cottonee must be at full heath or near full health to check setup because it risks taking hits and it's health it's not going to get back.

Why do people say this? This is so wrong, Foongus has just plain inferior defensive stats than Foongus. It is NOT taking Earthquakes any time soon, even with regenerator. Foongus is kind of like Koffing in that yes it has a fighting type resistance...but what does it do back? Giga Drain really doesn't scare any fighting type away and sends them running to the hills. Stuff like Slowpoke, Vullaby, and Missy are just more powerful or can hit them super effectively. Mienfoo Knocks off it's eviolite and just U-turns out when you come in on Drain Punch or Fake Out. Giga Draining it isn't doing anything to it. The only fighting type that I can see being scared of Foongus is Timburr. Almost any other Fighting type like Croagunk doesn't really care about it.

Click to expand...

When did I ever say Cottonee can't run an attacking move? I believe it is a waste of a slot so I'd never do it, I said that Cottonee doesn't run Fake Tears because it has better things to do. If Shroomish's movepool is so barren that it has the time to be running Fake Tears, I'd say that speaks for itself how badly it relies on Spore to not be outclassed.

It's also not a bad thing that Cottonee loses to Grass-types whenever it beats so much other stuff. That's what Cottonee has five teammates for. While Shroomish is in against Bronzor flopping around while Bronzor is setting up in the five turns it takes to KO it, Cottonee is switching out to something like Magnet Rise Magnemite and taking it out. If it's a 1v1 with Shroomish and Bronzor then whatever, but outside of the vacuum, Bronzor can just switch, rendering the Fake Tears turn useless, while the next Pokemon in eats a weak Giga Drain. You are also talking like Synthesis is reliable, when in reality, a huge percentage of high-level teams have Snover or Hippopotas on them. As far as I'm concerned, both Cottonee and Shroomish rely on Leech Seed for the majority of their healing.

I'll ask you the same question you asked Delver: Have you ever used Cottonee? You seem to assume that Cottonee has to switch in to do its job; rather, its very existence suppresses setup Pokemon. If you are running SD Drilbur and there is a Snover on the other team, Drilbur can't sweep until Snover is gone. Same thing with Cottonee, but substitute in every setup sweeper in the tier for Drilbur. If you see Cottonee and know about its priority Encore, you are going to try and eliminate it before setting up. As such, the setup sweepers aren't doing their jobs, and the majority of them are not fast/strong enough to KO things without their boosts.

Foongus's stats are certainly not inferior to Shroomish, if you'd look. Foongus has one more hit point, one less Defense point, and the same Special Defense as Shroomish does, with two more Special Attack points (significant). It's secondary Poison typing means it actually hit non-Ferroseed Grass-types without resorting to Fake Tears, and that Fighting resistance is also significant, a worthy trade-off for the Ground neutrality. Regenerator means that Shroomish has reliable recovery (Why is the 33% here reliable where a weather-diminished Synthesis 33% isn't? Regenerator is passive, which makes all the difference.) Mienfoo is definitely afraid of Giga Drain, since it can't outdamage it with Drain Punch even after a Knock Off, assuming it doesn't just eat Spore right away. Timburr should actually be less scared because it is super specially bulky and has a boosting move and loves Stun Spore, and of course Croagunk resists Giga Drain so it doesn't care.

What I want to know is why you believe that Shroomish is better than Cottonee as a catch-all check to everything or better than Foongus at Sporing, when it is clear that it has few, negligible benefits over either.

Its actually genuinely surprising to me that cottonee doesnt learn uturn because whimsicott does, and i figured you could breed it down the line as such. Being as thats not the case, replace the word "uturn" with "switch" and you're in the same position. Embarrassing on my part yes, but by no means discredits the validity of Cottonee. Admittedly, I've been playing more UU than LC and will blame that as the source of my error.

Refering to Foongus vs Shroomish: Poison heal is worse for the same reason Leftovers is inferior to eviolite. At max HP, its 3 per turn. additionally, regenerator is siginifcantly more reliable than either posion heal (which you need to forfeit an eviolite to abuse, or switch into a toxic) or synthesis (snover and sand).

Just enough to switch in, clear smog, spore, giga drain, or stun spore and get out without having to waste a turn to synthesize off damage because switching is your healing. the first calc, representing if drilbur attacks on the switch, the second if it dances. Either way you'll have enough time to respond without dying. Granted you do have to be at full hp to do this, but that boils down to not being an idiot when you're playing, and with regenerator, its a lot easier to be at 100% than one might thing.

Also; not being able to handle mienfoo isnt exaclty a "down side" as much as being able to handle mienfoo is an upside. There is a reason it's in S teir, and honestly none of the 3 mons being discussed atm can handle a well played DefensiveFoo. The important thing is it gives you a fighting resist should you find your main check, ie Missy, dead so your team isnt completely rolled by HJKs and the like. It all goes back to being able to do multiple things with one mon. I mean, what does Shroomish do to fightings that makes them care about it?

Its also a garunteed OHKO with rocks on shroomish if it opted for a toxic orb.

Foongus can handle drilbur just as well as a shroomish as shown in the first set of calcs, and its fighting resist gives it an extra dimension that Shroomish lacks. Regenerator is also better and more reliable recovery than either synthesis or poison heal.

As far as the fake tears set goes; 1, why are people staying in after getting the debuff. 2, what are you sacrificing for the slot? Fake tears is more liek Pseudo-pseudo hazing in that it will force out a mon, especially in the face of something that can heal off its special attack. You're porygon calcs are also a possible 3 hit ko, and a garunteed 4hko; which is actually sort of big due to the hax-y nature of Tri-attack. It doesnt really disprove the win, but because it *requires* pory to be at -2 SpD, I dont think you can decidedly say "Shroomish beats pory where as Cottonee doesnt." the same goes for bronzor, only bronzor is bad. Also, despite having 3 points higher in spA, shroomish doesnt actually have a higher stat than cottonee, both capping out at 14 with full investment.

Aside from making me look like an ass (again that was a really bad slip on my part T.T), I'm not convinced that Shroomish can beat threats not named drilbur (which I just proved foongus can do as well if played well, and has already been established that cottonee can do.), or that shroomish can reliably force out or beat big name threats like porygon or "bronzor" any better than foongus or Cottonee. Shroomish's niche has and always will be spore, and I really think foongus does spore better.

Like Hawkstar has said, Cottonee is not a wall; maybe it was my mistake comparing the two (you know, these discussions make LC alive :D).

However, having played with both 'mons, I have to say that I find Cottonee way more useful than Shroomish with a support set: Stun Spore/Encore/Taunt/Giga Drain.

Shroomish is a wall attempting to be there and continously drain the enemy while Cottonee is a defensive support which disrupts momentum on the opposing team.

Shouting is working on the assumption that Poison Heal is always active AND Shroomish has an Eviolite. In reality, this can be just secured when the opposing team Poisons Shroomish. Not a single serious player will ever attempt to throw Toxic around when Shroomish is alive; maybe the serious player will attempt to Paralyze, Sleep or even Burn Shroomish (Thunder Wave Porygon, Stun Spore Cottonee, Spore Foongus, Will-o-Wisp Misdreavus, all common threats). Poison Heal is, in fact, unreliable against smart players. On the other hand, if you hold a Toxic Orb to ensure the recovery you'll loose the defensive protection of Eviolite.

Taunting Shroomish is very easy because of its low speed, meaning that even if you try to Spore Vullaby, Misdreavus or Cottonee, you'll find yourself walled, meanwhile, Cottonee can Taunt first and Stun Spore next. Also, Spore is a one-time move only and, while I find it very useful to shut down one pokemon, it also means that Shroomish has 3 moves only: Synthesis? Leech Seed? Toxic? Substitute? Giga Drain? Fake Tears? The smart player will sacrifice one player and then switch into a hard counter.

Shroomish is good, I don't deny that, but in terms of usefulness, Cottonee is better:

B rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

Click to expand...

This is just enough for Cottonee (imo) but is it really the definition of Shroomish? I really don't think so, Shroomish's positives are not enough to make it stand on B: Spore, Poison Heal, Defensive stats are not enough to outshine Bad offensive typing, 4MSS, lack of reliable recovery for a wall (Synthesis, like Hawk said, is not reliable in this meta) and not enough support options. But that's just my opinion.

No, Toxic Orb won't always be in effect, but what makes it good is that it allows Shroomish to beat walls like Lileep with Fake Tears. If Shroomish did not have this, Lileep would just toxic Shroomish and it would lose if you carry Fake Tears or not. The same with Bronzor, it would just toxic it if it even had it and Shroomish would lose. It's just the fact that you can't posion Shroomish is what makes it good, the healing is just a bonus.

If you can assume no one is going to poison Shroomish, then I can say no one is going to stay in on Cottonee when they just used Dragon Dance. Yes, it scares them from doing it a second time, but honestly Scraggy doesn't need to boost to +1 to beat Lileep or Bronzor. The possiblity may even arise when you assume your oppoent knows better not to set up, but then actually does! So now you didn't switch in your Cottonee when they used Dragon Dance / Swords Dance because you thought Pawniard would Iron head your lileep instead of setting up because you have a Cottonee. Once something sets up over an error like that, all you can do it let Cottonee kill itself in exchange for paralysis - and if Scraggy has Shed Skin it's all in vain, your cottonee is gone and Scarggy can just hop in on Bronzor whenever it wants to get a chance at a status heal. (if it already hasn't been cured right after Cottonee dies) Not to mention that a second sweeper has no problems settting up now.

I think you guys are implying that if you have a Cottonee on your team it is impossible for you to be swept and that isn't true. If you just hit cottonee hard, it will die without doing much because it has no recovery.

Spore / Synthesis / Giga Drain / Fake Tears is a great set on Shroomish. What fake tears does is that it scares away Shroomish's checks I don't think anybody realizes this. Yes, you can always switch out when you get hit by fake tears, but that's the point! Your check isn't a check anymore if it's at -2, it's that simple. Combine Fake Tears and Spore and you have something that isn't as nearly as easy to check as Cottonee.

I also wasn't saying that Shroomish checks Fighting types, it might be able to take a hit from one here and there, but it's not a good check. What I was saying is that Foongus checks Fighting types just as well as Tentacool (maybe a little better.) It's better than nothing, but I would never go to Foongus as my catch all fighting type check, it doesn't really matter that much when Minefoo is healing most of the damage you did to it with Regenerator.

Cottonee can be useful against more offensive teams yes, but it does literally nothing against other teams because it is so predictable. For example I refered to this earlier but I found the replay of a me Vs. a Cottonee: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc8263798

You can see right from the beginning I had no troubles with Cottonee. There are literally so many ways to play around it. In that match it did literally nothing. It was easily eliminated before I brought out Tirtouga. Even if it was still alive, a Stone Edge probably would have just done it in.