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Yama Zuki and Kempo Connection?

Ok here's is something that has been driving me crazy for years. The point of tha Yama Zuki. I looks like the hand in back is used as a overhand which is a punch that I make a LOT of use as someone who practices and spars in the form of kickboxing taught in my dojo. It seems like an easy punch to use with a fair amount of power but the lower hand still perplexes me.

One possible theory I constructed when a friend of mine was showing me Kempo. He had me stand still and take a couple hits only to find the way my body buckled from each specific impact in disturbingly consistant/entertaining ways. The light bulb went on above my head when he did a downward strike to my stomach, causing my head to come downward but mostly forward.

Considering how my head gave forward momentum to add to the momentum of my attackers fist to my face, could the lower hand of yama zuki be used to cause the forward buckling reaction? And if we consider reaction force, my being hunched over thus my hed being in front of my first vertibrae, could this put me in the position to not be able to roll with the punch?

As an aside, Iain, as a certified pedant I LOVED your comments om the "u-punch" / "c-punch."

The Yama Tsuki is very interesting technique that I've questioned lots. I list here various ways that I've been taught it's use or that I teach it. There is very variable pragmatism amongst this list and ultimately you'll make up your own mind how useful any of these actually are:

- A double punch! (actually my least favourite in the list)

- The entry for the mountain sacrifice throw, so called because a) you start from mountain stance and b) you throw your attacker off a mountain. I love this explantion and do teach it... but with a mischievous smile

- On a Koryu seminar I was taught it as a belt grab and horizontal spearhand to the throw, to take the attacker down backwards. Again questionable but in my experience the koryu tend to be pretty applied (accepting the era in which they were devised)

just hit a focus pad with the big overhand hook.. It is an incredibly powerful technique which just "feels" good with either hand

Yup.

Chuck Lidell taught me the overhand hook and it's hellishly powerful. My personal critique, which may be born out of who was teaching and for what context, was that it took too much set up. It wasn't something just that naturally happened like a job or cross.

That's a good point. However in the correct scenario it certainly is a technique you could rely on.

One of my sequences from Jion uses the overhand hook ( actualluy the left if dealing with an opponents right hand). However to be effective it is preceded by a technique which fits the context of the drill I'm thinking of. It is the the first technique that creates the opportunity to deliver the second.

I take your point about straight techniques and later in Jion the same scenario plays out but with a straight technique to start the sequence ( Shotai Uchi). The deciding factor on which to use comes down to the energy transmitted from my opponent.

I don't know about the practicality but take a look at those old bare knuckle pugilists:

The motion IMO is closer to the opening of Pinan Nidan, Yama is of course close but not the same. we do in naihanchi dachi which gives both hands better structure as opposed to Neko Ashi Dachi- but of course this is only one Bunkai.

As an aside, Iain, as a certified pedant I LOVED your comments om the "u-punch" / "c-punch."

Thank you! I will win the world around to my way of thinking on this! ;-)

ky0han wrote:

I don't know about the practicality but take a look at those old bare knuckle pugilists

Great photos! Many thanks for sharing those. Fascinating!

Tau wrote:

Chuck Lidell taught me the overhand hook and it's hellishly powerful.

One of my full contact karate coaches had a few drills around throwing the overhand right as he slipped to the outside of a cross … devastating! He also got excited when teaching me that drill when it dawned on him it was like the kata motion he had learnt in his early days! More of a fighting technique that a SD one, but great fun to practice … a lovely thwack on the pads :-)

Something has just occurred to me. The title of this thread isn't just about Yama Tsuki but the Kempo connection. And then I reference Chuck Lidell. Now I think about it this is screamingly obvious but my greymatter isn't working so well at the moment.

Chuck Lidell is famously a Kempo practitioner, although "Kempo" can mean different things to different people. Specifically, however, he trained in Koei Kan Karate primarily. I'd never heard of it but actually it's quite interesting. I refer you to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koei-Kan

Interestingly, of the style it states "The Koei-Kan kata syllabus includes 5 Pinan Kata, 3 Naihanchin, Sanchin, Sanseiru, Seisan, Chinto, 4 Kushanku Kata, 2 Passai Kata, Sepai, Gojoshiho, Suparinpei, Jaken Ichiro and Renchiken Ichiro" which makes me wonder if Mr Lidell didn't acquire this technique from his Karate rather than from his Kickboxing or MMA. Going off on a slight tangent, other notable MMA fighters cite their Karate as being fundamental to their MMA including Georges St. Pierre and Lyoto Machida.

Just look at the sheer power of those punches. As a point of inteest to both MMA and non-MMA fans, one of my favourite UFC matches is Chuck's final match which was against Rich Franklin in 2010 if only for the sheer spirit shown in the match. Punching full force with an arm already broken by a kick early in the match!

Edit 1: off the back of my above post, I've just re-watched the match. In it, Chuck grabs the rear of Franklin's right knee with his left hand then throws an overhand right to the head for a takedown. If that's not demonstrably effective bunkai of yama tsuki then I don;t know what is. That one technique has suddenly inspired more respect from me for that particular movement.

Edit 2: I now realise that I mentioned Chuck's Kempo... and then referred to Koei-Kan Karate which isn't all that logical. I said the greymatter wasn't working well. And the dots do join up. My point essentially remains; the validity of karate in MMA.

Just my own experience here of course - at least with the tighter version seen in Goju Ryu, it is pretty much what it looks like, and is relatively close to Ian's video. Just have someone hold out an arm, put out a "guard" hand or whatver, use the lower arm to drop the gaurd (and hopefully snap the head forward) while you come with kind of a tight overhand with the top hand..that's pretty much it. You can also immediately reverse the motion into another "upunch" with the new lower hand used to prevent them using their shoulder for blocking your next shot.

I'm skeptical when I see the application of a yama tsuki as being a 'double punch' for the following reasons:

1. the principle method of power transmission is through locomotion (which there is) and hip rotataion (of which there is none)

2. the technique is delivered to the rear/south when looking at the embusen suggesting the attack is from the rear - this is most likely to be a seize of somekind, requiring some degree of seizing in response

I like the overhand punch Iain does and it corresponds nicely to being attacked from the rear: over arm bear hug from behind > single handed groin seize resulting in wrist grab > responded to by the punch.

I practice this technique mainly from a double shoulder or collar grab from behind - I have encountered this habitual act of violence personally four or five times when people try to drag me out of a confrontation (that sounds bad, but I'm paid to stop fights and it normally happens when somone doesnt want a friend to get in trouble):

Step 1: lean forward to off set any pulling that causes you to become unstable

Step 2: turn to your left and swing the left arm behind you as you turn, circling over both arms (this becomes the lower arm in the yama tsuki)

Step 3: lean forward and over hand punch with the right hand

(for Bassai reach and grab the head and rotate so they face away from you and then kick to the back of the leg to take to the floor).

The same can work for the taller posture more commonly found in the naha-based forms, but the taller the posture the greater the limtation on stability.

We practice the more vertical technique in a kata called chokyu (similar to geki sai) and thought this vide may be of interest showing the U/C punch at around 1.18mins and 1.30mins (they just learned the exercise, hence the slow performance):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PadWFMiGzg8

[Emending not possible for this video so please follow link to view – IA]

It's certainly correct that the angle of contact can affect how the target's body reacts, so ideally you'd want the lower technique to happen marginally before the upper one if it's purpose is to bring the head forward to meet the upper technique.

I realise that meridians aren't every kareteka's 'cup-of-tea', but in some styles the lower and upper techniques aren't delivered vertically but skewed with the lower one towards the gall baldder and the upper one closer to the heart; in which case an initial strike to the GB meridian could be seen as 'setting up' or sensitizing the HT meridian for the immediately following strike (If you go with this view, then you would always deliver yama tsuki with the same skew, no matter which side you started from).

I realise that meridians aren't every kareteka's 'cup-of-tea', but in some styles the lower and upper techniques aren't delivered vertically but skewed with the lower one towards the gall baldder and the upper one closer to the heart; in which case an initial strike to the GB meridian could be seen as 'setting up' or sensitizing the HT meridian for the immediately following strike

"Quadrant theory." If I recall correctly, Paul King from Peterborough taught me that.

Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi. The sleeve lift-pull hip throw. Lovely throw both in competition and exhibition. The chap in the video explains it very well but doesn't show the actual movement very clearly. It's worth surfing YouTube for videos of it.

I have to say that I've never really rated the mountain punch. This thread is opening my mind quite considerably.,

Very interesting applications, thanks for sharing Mark and Tau! I on believe on one of Iain's bunkaijutsu video, he uses the spin after the mountain punches as a tai otoshi. Fascinating seeing everyone's perspective!

Chuck Lidell taught me the overhand hook and it's hellishly powerful. My personal critique, which may be born out of who was teaching and for what context, was that it took too much set up. It wasn't something just that naturally happened like a job or cross.

Heres a video of Lidelll teaching his overhand right. My mind is going, combining Iain's interpretation with the Iceman's overhand could be incredibly powerful (not to mention doing the overhand with the "double hip!")