Sad Songs (Don't) Say So Much

Blaming music for tragic events doesn't help anyone understand what happened - and ignores the real issues at hand.

By now most attentive Australians will have read of the sad, eerie deaths of Melbourne teenagers Stephanie Gestier and Jodie Gater, in an apparent suicide pact between the two new friends.

But before their friends and family could even get their heads around the awful news, the usual media vultures were scrambling all over the girls' MySpace profiles, looking for clues, and noting their being "part of the 'emo' subculture, named after a type of music characterised by an emotional and confessional tone. Emo fans are classified as introverted, sensitive, moody and alienated, and are derided by other subcultures for self-pitying poetry commonly posted on the MySpace website."

Translation: they were listening to music about feelings! Some of the music talks about death! You do the math!

I can understand why people would be desperate to explain such sad events, but suggesting that music drove a person to make the decision to end their life is not only ridiculous, it trivialises mental illness in an inexcusable way.

Because the problem here is not music, or MySpace, it's the way our society treats people suffering from depression.

I've been working through depression for the past year or so (possibly longer, depending upon when I decided I needed help), and I still have trouble actually articulating that word: depression. More often than not I'll put on a wacky voice and refer to "my isshews" or "staring into the abyss" or "the blues" or anything but "depression" or "I'm depressed".

Stephanie Gestier's mother sent a harrowing plea out into the online ether, as though it would somehow make it to her daughter in amongst the fibre optics and synapses: "Stephanie, why didn't you tell me you were so upset?"

Who knows why Stephanie couldn't tell her mum what she was going through, and we probably never will, but I can offer a little of my own personal experience.

I struggled for months and months to get the words "Mum and Dad, I'm depressed" out of my mouth when I first tumbled into darkness. It was like one of those anxiety dreams where you try to scream but can only whimper; like Eliot seeing E.T for the first time and croaking "Mom! Michael!" at mouse volume.

The closest I came to the edge was while standing in the shower, wondering what would happen if I put my hand through a window or swallowed a bottle of painkillers. Would that do the talking - to my family, to my friends, to myself - that my mouth was so seemingly unable to do?

Fortunately, these shadowy 'goals' went only as far as wishing for a hospital bed to envelop me so that I could sleep away the pain and wake up renewed and clearheaded again.

So, I do not know what it feels like to be suicidal, but if accepting depression and forcing myself to reach out to those who I'd forgotten cared about me was hard, then experiencing suicidal feelings must be the loneliest feeling in the world.

Well, depression is not cool, for starters. If you want to kill a riotous dinner party conversation quick smart, try saying "Hey guys, FYI, I've been depressed for the last six months."

Of all the mental illnesses, it seems depression and anxiety are the least understood - and its sufferers are the least respected.

As an example, I am a rabid fan of Australia's Next Top Model, which - either by fate or a more shadowy decision on the part of the producers - has each series featured a contestant who suffers from either depression or anxiety, or both. In series one it was eventual winner Gemma; last year it was Jess; this year it is Paloma.

The internet is never the place to look for moderate, thoughtful commentary on topics of this nature, but your skin would crawl to read some of the comments about these brave girls. "Complete nutcase," opined one Vogue forums poster on the topic of Paloma's anxiety attack and ensuing tears. "It's all attention seeking. She probably wasn't hugged enough as a child."

The sad thing is, though, comments like that aren't one-offs. So many people with depression or anxiety are told to "cheer up", "have a good night's sleep" or "get over it". With attitudes like that circulating, is it any wonder so few sufferers seek help?

We will never know exactly what drove Stephanie and Jodie to take that fateful trip into the Dandenong Ranges, but we can work as hard as we can to prevent similar tragedies from occurring.

And that will start with giving depression and its sufferers the respect, gravity and care they deserve - and by not giving the music they listen to a second thought.

LATEST COMMENTS

We should be looking at how our culture regards feelings as a bad thing. Outdated Spartan ideals of not crying and brutality have oppressed both the Western World and society for centuries at least. If we break down the Berlin Wall of stigma separating us from communicating our feelings and if we can get people to listen, we could achieve something. As for music influencing people's will to kill themselves, I conducted an experiment, I played songs backwards using a music editor program, and found no subliminal messages in Blue Oyster Cult's "Don't Fear the Reaper", however I did discover that yes, Stairway to Heaven does have Satanic messages if you play it backwards, however while listening to Stairway to Heaven, I was thinking more about the forest echoing with laughter or hedgerows, not Satan. Next they'll be blaming Weird Al Yankovic for causing "White and Nerdy" Syndrome.

In any case, depression is a really bad thing, particularly during the HSC. The Board of Studies does not to my knowledge, recognise depression as an impairment to coursework and exam results, probably because it "can't be proved". Yet the Board of Studies syllabus for Year 12 is causing a lot of depression at my school, yet when people like me try to express this, people say to me "don't be emo" or "stop whingeing". This attitude must be stopped.

Posted by: Jacob Martin, TeenAuthor on May 8, 2007 9:27 PM

I need to ask a fairly personal but relative question to those Teens suffering depression and would love to read your responses.

How many of you would contribute your "state of mind" on bullying while you were at school?

I am asking because my 12 yr old son has copped this crap for 3 months on a daily basis and I am trying to get the Education Department and the Politians to take this problem seriously.

Many thanks

Elaine

PS I wish you all a return to a brighter place in the very near future.

Posted by: Elaine on May 8, 2007 7:39 PM

These girls weren't even emo, not in the true sense of the word anyway. I've visited the myspace profile, she lists mainly rap as her favourite music, with her favourite band being cypress hill. The emo thing is nothing more than a trend, and just because some of these kids "look" like they fit into such a category does not necessarily mean that they fit into a sub culture characterised by self indulgence. I don't understand why society is unable to take things at face value and show the ultimate respect to these girls- responding to people for who they are, not who everyone else thinks they are.

Ignorance like that gets old after awhile.

By the same token, I'm apparently just as self indulgent as those belonging to the emo culture, because I listen to metal. It's a vicious cycle of ridiculous labelling. Is it so hard for people to grasp the fact that everyone responds to life's obstacles in different ways, and that they respond through different forms of music? Music does not make the person,but it enhances them. Maybe there are some parents and institutions who should start taking responsibility for not trying to get to know adolescents a bit better.

Posted by: Anonymous on April 25, 2007 6:51 PM

One more thing. Note the disturbing parallel with Cho Seung Hui? Both cases used video and electronic media (in the girls' case their website)to "celebrate" their actions without the opportunity to be approached afterwards. I'll elaborate, Cho brandished and posed with weapons and proclaimed his warped concepts (obviously made through a deluded mind). Committed them to print and video and sent them to a media outlet. He knew he'd be dead and no one would able to say "no Cho you're wrong" to him. The girls? little hints about a new song but no Jodie singing on it due to "unfortunate events" etc. Again, using a media outlet to create a stage for their deaths and once gone, no one can say "you girls made a mistake". I'm starting to believe modern psychologists should take a serious look at what seems to be a developing psychological phenomenon.

Posted by: Tel... on April 25, 2007 3:31 AM

Posted by: astrogirl at April 24, 2007 4:30 PM I'm sorry astrogirl, claiming Suicide Girls projects a message of "empowerment" (f!ck that term has lost all its value)is of equal validity as that "Pussycat Dolls" show claiming the same thing (and it has). It's soft core titilation, for teenies, nothing more. It's of the same "empowerment" level as "Girls Gone Wild". A bunch of silly girls craving a form of "celebrity" and attention using T&A. It's an empty assertion thrown out there to attempt to validate obviously questionable images and behaviour. And exploited by others to make money. The two girls death's are painful to witness. They cloistered themselves in the emo culture and its internet counterparts because they found indentity and privacy in it. It can be argued it fed their depression also though. The snake eating its tail as it were. Another time it could have been the metal or stoner community...it's just a soundtrack and window dressing essentially. They were damaged goods already without the lifestyle's accoutrements. It's another sad case to reinforce that parents should monitor their childrens' internet activity, although that's dependent on whether the parent is understanding what they're witnessing also.

Posted by: Tel... on April 25, 2007 3:01 AM

P.S. Clem, you've created a dialogue. Props.

Posted by: Mikhaela on April 24, 2007 11:50 PM

I didnt know these girls, dont even live in the same state. Heard about it from google news. (Been off the 'net - provider issues). I feel for those of you that are left. Its tragic. What I dont get is, you guys n gals know each other, some well, some not-so well. the teenage years (Ive felt) are the most difficult of years, so many changes, growing up, responsibilities. Its easy to be overwhelmed. (It was 4 me). But no one saw this coming. No one interveened. (If a friend hadn't interveened, i wouldnt be here now). The tryanny of distance shouldnt be so much of a problem with the 'net almost anywhere. Its too late to help these girls. They've found their answers. I pray that someone, somewhere, will try to help those that are left, to try to help them thru this tragedy. To help them see that the path these girls took is not necessarily the path for those that are left to take. The media, well, dont get me started on the media's role in all of this. I always think, tomorrow has got to be better, right. Feel free to comment, please send flames and abuse to /dev/null.

One last thing: people fear what they cannot see. mental illness is not like a plaster cast around an arm, its inside the head. people tend to osterisize (out) what they dont understand or fear. most people cant see anything wrong with you and so your faking it, baying for attention. Its not until a critical incident occurs, that some people suddenly realize that by outing the person, and or some other put down, that they realize there was a cry for help. By then its too late. Has society learned this yet? Nope, I dont believe so.

Posted by: Louis on April 24, 2007 10:14 PM

Clem & others,

Good on you for discussing your depression - it's difficult, it results in all sorts of outcomes, but the more people get used to hearing 'normal' people say it, the less difficult it will be for the next person that's diagnosed.

Yes, I've been diagnosed, I'm being treated, and while I tend to be careful about who I tell I'm not as guarded as I used to be because I hope that people who don't understand feel that they can ask questions to get a better grasp of the disorder. Some people do. Other people want to know where to get help. We - as a society - need to be able to discuss these things if we have any hope of getting people who need treatment to the range of help that's available.

I don't know whether these girls were 'emo' or not, but music is often comforting. Exactly what is comforting is probably different for different people, but depressed people are unlikely to be listening to Hi-5.

If anyone out there is reading this who might need help, or know someone who might need, see your GP as a first port of call, call Lifeline or visit the website of the Black Dog Institute at Prince of Wales.

Don't wait.

LJ

Posted by: LJ on April 24, 2007 9:47 PM

I think everyone has made good points about music and culture here that I feel like I don't have much to add.

However, I think all sub-cultures are ridiculed by other sub-cultures. The rejection of another sub-culture, especially when it's very far removed from your own is a way of establishing and re-affirming ones own identity. I have seen both friendly ridicule and ridicule that is full of malice. It's the latter one we all should be wary of.

And to everyone here that is suffering depression I hope you all can sort your way through your feelings and thoughts. I have never experienced it myself so I can't really understand it. But I do understand it is very difficult. I have a few friends who have depression who are working their way through it. I often feel very helpless because I know there's not much I can do for them other than just being there for them when they need me. So please seek help from others, your loved ones might just be waiting for you to reach out.

Posted by: Alice on April 24, 2007 9:21 PM

Whenever you hear of someone being sad, or upset, they are called emo. "I'm going to stop being emo now" "Oh, lets all be emo and cut ourselves". In my experience, the scene kids who claim to be depressed or self harm are attention seekers.

I've suffered from depression for many years, but none of my friends know. I just don't know how to talk about it. I think because it's harder to talk about your emotions and your mental health than it is to talk about your mental health. If I had cancer, I'd be able to tell my friends. But I can't tell them about my emotions, which is probably partly what caused the depression.

I'm not anything like emo. It's so easy to scapegoat musicians and subcultures as the cause of suicide. It used to be marilyn manson. Now it's the emo subculture, and in particular, my chemical romance, a band that I simply see as a rock band.

But while they're out there blaming bands and subcultures, kids are still dying. Instead of blaming people, shouldn't they just try and understand them? Listen to them, and their problems, instead of diagnosing them? I remember when I started medication, my parents figured I was cured. All I've ever wanted was attention from my parents, which is all any depressed teenager wants. Understanding parents who are there for them. After two months of medication, I got stubbourn and decided I wanted to fix it myself. My parents figured I was alright again. Whenever they saw me get upset, or mad, or frustrated, they just thought I was a brat, and we'd end up fighting.

Music was a big part in my calming down whenever I felt frustrated. My Chemical Romance, in particular, never made me want to kill myself. It was My Chemical Romance that calmed me down whenever I wanted to die, that made me realise 5 guys just like me overcame it to make something of themselves, it gave me hope.

Posted by: Kathleen on April 24, 2007 7:53 PM

I feel terrible seeing where these girls ended up, in the bush together, but all so alone.

I have suffered depression variously throughout my life, sometimes light, at times heavy and all I can say is you need to find the answer to your life.

I think (only my opinion) that a lot of depression results from a feeling of powerlessness.

Unable to express what you truly want to. Fearful of doing the things you actually want to. Unable to follow your own opinions & desires as others make you feel wrong.

What should come from this terrible event is that people who are unhappy shouldn't allow things to grind them into dust, but should spend that angst and fear searching themselves for answers of what they truly want out of life.

And the media should realize that their roles as gatekeepers of our society makes them good for judging politics and business and such where right and wrong, crime and good conduct can be clearly defined and objectviely explained. They are not qualified to explain or hypothesis on the nature of depression.

Posted by: Peter on April 24, 2007 7:48 PM

um im 16 and im depressed and it annoys me that people will blam suicide on something like music i mean i listen to music that is literally depressing and that helps me cope with it. Also it is hard for people to understand what people with depression go through, it is not something you can explain, it is not something that can be explained, you can not guess how it feels, only people with depression or that have gone through it know these feelings. Yes help is out there and wether you seek it is up to you, its a persons choice to get help if they want it and it should not be forced because in my eyes it is only torture to keep a person alive that doesnt want to live because not many people know what its like to live like this.

Posted by: Anonymous on April 24, 2007 6:36 PM

I think it's really important to keep in mind that controlling what people (note: I refuse to restrict this to 'children' or 'teens') listen to, will not necessarily reduce the change of someone committing suicide.
Music, both happy and not, can obviously impact the listeners feelings, but the fact is, we are born with free will.
As someone is dealing with depression, I have found it difficult to talk about simply because I feel like i'll be viewed as an attention seeker. It's by no means easy, but I have found finding music and literature that I can relate to has helped, not hindered the long process of accepting this as part of my life.

Posted by: Miss J on April 24, 2007 6:25 PM

Sounds like a textbook example of the 'post hoc, ergo propter' fallacy.

The name of this fallacy can be translated roughly as "Both happen, so one causes the other". In other words, seeing that two things are correlated, and assuming that one causes the other.

In layman's terms, the media is confusing a correlation between "members of the 'emo' subculture" with teen suicide, and assuming that being a "member of the 'emo' subculture" causes teen suicide.

Not that a correlation has even been established by the argument - it relies purely on a single, highly publicised, anecdote, which is a "hasty generalisation" fallacy.

Back to the causal argument, it cannot be assumed that one causes the other without evidence - and, as it has been stated before, it is more likely that both follow from a common cause - depression, either clinical or non-clinical. Taking part in suicide attempts or pacts can be described as the ultimate cry for help - someone who cannot seek help in any other way will seek it by suicide attempts. Unfortunately, many go through with suicide simply because they cannot see any other way of removing themselves from whatever problems they have. Every time this happens, society has failed to help these individuals to the extent that they have been driven to unnecessarily taking their own life. We can draw parallels to the recent Virginia Tech shootings. One man could not rationally deal with his emotions, due to (likely) a combination of his own personality, and the societal attitudes towards depression and mental illness, and as a result, thirty-three people died.

Back to where I started, the arguments presented by the media are full of fallacies, and, in general, very bad arguments.

Posted by: Andrew on April 24, 2007 5:45 PM

I watched Difference of Opinion on ABC last night, where a couple of middle-aged adults trotted out the same lines about preventing teenage children from having unlimited private access to the internet, and a couple of "younger" hipsters advocated a more critical response to the level of responsibility you can hurl at the internet.

Interestingly, it was only the two advocating a proper critical dialogue that had their points shut down by Jeff.

The emotional distance between children and their parents isn't solved by blaming infrastructure and pop/sub culture. In my opinion, people struggling with anything from the gamut of emotional brokenness will use the templates provided by society in order to express their inside, whether it eventuates in super-identification with unrealistic beauty ideals, violent behaviour, tuning in & dropping out, or misogyny.

When you hurt, it sucks. And the capacity art has to express that and critique it at the same time is what makes art great.

Posted by: Mikhaela on April 24, 2007 5:44 PM

I had a look at Jodie Gater's myspace, and she can not be purely associated to the emo subculture.

Doing as our society so poorly does, I judged her. The way she portrayed her About me was'gansta' inc. Although when looking at her photos you could see pain in her eyes.Depression. A deep black pit.

I dont know why people think teens with depression are emo. Anyone can suffer from depression. You dont call a 50 year old alcoholic 'emo'.

Society thrives on labelling people. The saddest part of this story will never be told...

Yes, and a lot of the "adults" now making light of the situation forget just how harrowing and lonely it can to be depressed as a teen - CB

Posted by: kellie on April 24, 2007 5:40 PM

It was pretty much the laziest journalism I've seen in a long time.
The girls were as "emo" as Chopin is Nu Metal...
Posted by: andrew "i loved the cure as a teen" b at April 24, 2007 4:05 PM
----------------------------------
Andrew,
The article by Clem is not about whether they were "emo" (whatever that is) or whether they preferred gangsta rap. Clem is trying to make the point that people are quick to blame the music or tv for suicide without looking at the actual problems that made them go that far.
Read the article again, pay attention. You will find that the article is far from being the "laziest journalism I've seen in a long time" as you have denounced it to be. The article is thought-provoking and well thought through. People who have come through depression will recognise this.

Posted by: jacqueline on April 24, 2007 5:32 PM

These poor kids weren't emos - just confused and not thinking of anyone or anything else but their own pain at growing up. I have the greatest empathy for their families and their friends who do not understand why they have taken such a tragic step. They are the ones left behind with their anguish. Leave the emos out of this one - the emos I know are all sensitive caring kids wanting to be different but as teens usually are - within a group.

Posted by: Lee on April 24, 2007 5:23 PM

Thanks.

Reading some of the comments on news sites recently about those two girls made me realise our society is populated with some disgusting, heartless people with no ability to understand others, and made me realise why I stopped bothering to seek help from those around me without professional training to combat depression.

You've tipped the balance back. This needed to be said - and will need to be said in future, when more vultures decide to swoop.

Posted by: V on April 24, 2007 5:08 PM

So true,the problem is when teens are suffering from a depressive related illness they don't say anything to anybody.They probably do not realise what is happening to them and have no idea where to turn.
medication relief is somewhat haphazard and can be dangerous for it's effects on the younger age group.
But not all medication works and it is definately a hit and miss procedure which requires referral to a Pyschiatrist who can monitor and change the medication to find out which one works best.

It is a very sad tale of our society because of the resistance shown to showcase the major problem that depression is.
The number of people that are affected by depression and related disorders is huge and much greater than offical statistics.

Posted by: eric on April 24, 2007 4:46 PM

Clem - congratulations on a well written and brutally honest article.

Music can help or hinder your mood temporarily but cannot be blamed for suicide or depression. It is an easy target for the "moral majority" to take aim at.

I've had depression and listened to anything from Alice In Chains' Dirt album, as it was someone else feeling like me, to happy acid jazz. In other words, music helped. The issues weren't my musical tastes.

Posted by: Winston on April 24, 2007 4:37 PM

In the 80s I was a sullen goth teenager and tried to kill myself a couple of times. I agree with all the comments people seek out sad music/dark subcultures because they already feel sad. I do think, however, that the morbid music, poetry, hanging out with other miserable people can reinforce it so that it becomes a bit of a cycle.

As for the comments that depression and anxiety are the least understood and accepted mental illnesses you've clearly never been schizophrenic. I think the problem is that anxiety and depression are seen as exaggerated forms of "normal" negative emotions so people just think you can snap out of it. Personally, I think in some cases it's a biological thing and some cases an environmental thing and I guess the solution depends on the cause.

Stormy, as someone whose been miserable and recovered I thought your joke was funny, but I'm not touchy about it.

Posted by: lillian on April 24, 2007 4:36 PM

To blame music, fashion, hair colour, etc for a persons mental state is ridiculous. If you believe the sensationalist tabloid media, it would seem that only goths and emos have issues with mental illness, and that no-one outside of these sub-cultures has ever attempted suicide. I watched a news report last night that pointed out that Jodie Gater had The Suicide Girls on her mySpace friend list. I am guessing that the reporter did not research that The Suicide Girls have a message of self empowerment and loving yourself even if you are different and not societies view of perfection.

I was a part of the goth subculture for a very long time and met some wonderful, friendly, well adjusted people. To say that everyone I met were would be naive; if you put 10 people in a room from all walks of life there will always be a few that have problems. It is a shame that everyone gets judged by their aesthetic and that people are so quick to judge. The fact that these girls were listening to emotional music and had an affinity for alternative clothing is not the issue here- people identify with different things. The fact that there were so many obvious cries for help that for some reason or another went un-noticed is. To blame music for their suicide is both asinine and dismissive

Posted by: astrogirl on April 24, 2007 4:30 PM

It was pretty much the laziest journalism I've seen in a long time.
The girls were as "emo" as Chopin is Nu Metal...
Their myspace page had an embedded video of Nelly's "Hot in Herre"... the first line of their musical tastes is:

How in frigging hell do you get "emo" from one of the biggest hip hop blurbs I've ever seen is beyond me.... oh no i see it.. amongst 100 bands most of which are hiphop/rnb.. there is My Chemical Romance... bullseye. the kid was TOTALLY EMO...ffs.

Firstly I am not making a joke of depression. Have had two friends commit suicide through depression - one with a gun,one with his head in a gas oven. Both men, one in his 20s and one in his 40s. One listened to punk and extreme metal, the other - well the only song I ever heard him sing was "Good Old Collingwood Forever". Quite sure music was not a factor in either. Damn sure failed relationships, feelings of inadequacy, inability to communicate/fear of seeming 'weak' to other men were big factors. Oh, plus overimbibing in alcohol and being alone.

Secondly, people make jokes about everything. Sometimes it's called coping. Even if (in the opinion of some) they're not funny.

Thirdly I hope - and this is sincere - that things work out for you and you're able to get through your illness and enjoy your life.

Posted by: Stormy on April 24, 2007 3:41 PM

You do the math? Oh, you mean maths.

'math' is an awful Americanism. Please use 'maths' in future.

(now the subversion of Australian culture by the constant bombardment of cheap American television - now that's something to get depressed about).

Good to see you have your priorities straight, Michael - CB

Posted by: Michael on April 24, 2007 3:39 PM

I actually think that this whole depression thing IS becoming fashionable- just the label "Emo" is contributing.
I don't know how well I can articulate this without it becoming offensive, but I'll try.
Being an Emo makes it OK to be depressed or angry or suicidal without even attempting to find help to get you out of a rut- its cool to listen to influential music and talk about wanting to kill yourself openly, its now become part of Emo culture.
Don't get me wrong, Its OK to feel, to experience pain, to have suicidal thoughts, it not OK to encourage it in your friends, to go without help because its in fashion, to work yourself into that state of mind to BE in fashion.
Being an Emo is so much more than musical taste these days, its a culture and a way of life that is dangerous.
Myspace is also getting alot of mention with this case;
Myspace is not bad, its a vessel to express yourself, stay in touch and make new friends. On one online quize entitles "how Emo are you?" spending 2-3 hours a day on Myspace is a contributing factor to being Emo though. Its also become part of Emo culture, even though its isn't exclusivly used by "Emo's"
There is also a very big "Us and Them" thing happening, with jokes that that lightbulb one coming out. Laughing at depressed kids or Emo's who constantly act and appear depressed is NOT helping the issue, just lowering their self confidence more and making them hate other people more

Posted by: Stephanie on April 24, 2007 3:29 PM

Great story, Clem, thank you. Very reflective. It was not what I was expecting to get when I clicked on the link. The media tends to focus on things like "the evil music" or "how we are losing our children to cyberspace".... but the truth is that there will always be something. To me it is like the media focus on the kid from Virginia Tech - instead of taking the opportunity to promote awareness about depression everyone has latched onto "gun contol" instead of looking at what makes someone pick up a gun in the first place and do what he did.

I also agree with Liesl's comment that "What parents seem to miss is that mostly we listen to sad music BECAUSE we're sad". You listen to mosuic that reflects where you are emotionally at the time. If you are sad and havent worked out or realised why then you listen to depressing music, or music that gives or a reason to be sad. When you feel like you are ready to be cheered up then you move on to something more upbeat.

Music had nothing to do with what those girls did to themselves.

Posted by: jacqueline on April 24, 2007 3:25 PM

As someone being treated for depression for over twelve months I find some of the comments posted here just plain ignorant. Do we make jokes about those suffering cancer, MS, AIDS? NO! Dpression like the other illnesses I have mentioned can be terminal. It is no laughing matter. A final message to Stormy: Not funny, not even a bit.

Posted by: yellow on April 24, 2007 3:09 PM

I guess Leonard Cohen must be the supremo of the emo then?

Posted by: jj on April 24, 2007 3:05 PM

I've seen one of the girls myspace profiles. The "emo" angle is basically rubbish. Her musical tastes were predominantly American ghetto music, her hero was "Snoop".

Besides, how is the emotional angle of bands like My Chemical Romance more pronounced than that of Brahms or Wagner? Should I stop letting my children listen to Tristan und Isolde, lest they get funny ideas about suicide pacts in later life? Don't get me started on reading Greek tragedy or even some of the early Australian pioneer poetry.

While Western art music may be (in the end)more life affirming than "emo", the depths of depression and violence explored along the way make "emo" seem jovial by comparison.

Posted by: Shane on April 24, 2007 3:03 PM

Clem,

I want to thank you for this blog, for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, because I've been really annoyed with the general media's coverage of this tragedy. Implying that certain genres of music encourage depression or suicide is over-simplifying and potentially dangerous.

It's also lazy journalism - it regurgitates a tired "your children are up to something scary which you won't understand" rhetoric.

In some cases music (or literature, etc) helps articulate and clarify thoughts and feelings we can't easily communicate to ourselves, let alone to anyone else. It also lets us know we're not the first ones to feel like we're sinking into a quicksand we can navigate out of.

Which brings me to my second point:

Thanks for talking about your own experiences. It's not an easy thing to do - for all the reasons you talk about in your post.

It's pretty awful having depression. Feeling ashamed of having it is even worse, because it stops people putting their hand up and saying something's wrong.

Depression's such a complex condition. It'd be nice if the media and the wider community would try a little harder to respect its complexity. Or at least respect that we don't fully understand its complexity yet - if that makes sense...

Posted by: JD Salinger's dog on April 24, 2007 2:48 PM

Now now Clem, don't let the facts get in the way of the story! I hadn't seen any reference to that in the stories I'd read, not surprisingly as emo is a much easier target than the Black Eyed Peas. Although I think they are much scarier than skinny white guys with black nail polish and haircuts like half-sucked mangoes (sorry, 38 years old now, have to start bashing 'the kids' and their idols).

Is it the wrong time to tell this joke - How many emo kids does it take to change a lightbulb?

None, they just sit in the dark and cry.

Posted by: Stormy on April 24, 2007 2:27 PM

I think the music/subculture/depression thing is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. As someone who's experienced a bit of all the above, I think parents and the media tend to look at the issue in a very limited way.

I'm 24 now and have been a part of the goth scene since I was 12 or 13. Emo, from what I've observed, seems to be like the petulant foot-stomping grandchild of the Goth subculture. But at the end of the day, kids in both goups have something in common - the fact that they feel disconnected and more often than not, depressed *before* they enter the "scene". It's WHY the enter them in the first place. It's why a lot of goth kids were overweight, or kinda funny looking, or confused about their sexuality. If someone is going to stare at me and mock me for being fat, I may as well give them a reason to stare, and gain a sense of family and understanding from others around me while I'm at it.

Which I think leads into the depressing music thing - depression is something that still is largely misunderstood and not acceptable, and although listening to depressing music may not help your mood as such, it still in a way offers a form of validation. What parents seem to miss is that mostly we listen to sad music BECAUSE we're sad (or angry when angry, dancey when wanting to party, etc), not because we use it to make ourselves feel that way.

Posted by: Liesl on April 24, 2007 2:17 PM

" ...and one was a rabid Black Eyed Peas fan! - CB "

Case solved!

Posted by: Vincent on April 24, 2007 2:01 PM

i think people are drawn to music they identify with, rather than the other way around. listening to a depressing song isn't likely to make someone want to kill themselves in and of itself. i tend to find it's the opposite for me - music as catharsis.
another point, i have found that people can be more willing to talk about these things if they listen to music that addresses these issues. i listen to manic street preachers, who have written songs about anorexia, depression, self harm, and the like, in my experience, their fans are much more open and willing to talk about these things with each other. it is an identifier, and also a way to move away from feeling completely isolated.

Posted by: pam on April 24, 2007 2:00 PM

Have to agree with Sammy01 -

"When you choose to constantly bombard yourself with depressing sullen messages, you're conditioning yourself to have a more negative sullen outlook and to romanticise those emotions".

I grew up as a teen in the 80s, listening almost exclusively to metal - and of course as we didn't have "emo" back then, metal was the musical target of choice to blame for teen suicides, at least half of my record collection was sued (Ozzy, Judas Priest, AC/DC etc) by the parents of dead American teenagers. Given I am still here typing this, you can see I didn't adopt the various supposed messages in the music. If you remember the Judas Priest case in particular, two teenage boys listened to the song "Beyond the Realms of Death" for 7 hours straight while smoking pot, before popping outside with a shotgun. Supposedly the band had backmasked the words "do it" - as one of the band members rightly said, "do what?" and pointed out that if they were going to put subliminal messages in the music, the obvious one was "buy more Judas Priest albums" - not much point in a band encouraging its fans to kill themselves...much attention in the case centred on allegations of Satanism, and the technical nature of backmasking, and very little on the effects on two teenagers of 7 hours listening to one song about death again and again while pulling cones.

The reality is (God that line sounds like a wank, perhaps "I think the reality is") that teenagers are and always have been emotional - their systems are chockful of hormones, look at the mixed messages they get from families, friends, advertising, movies, etc etc, they aren't fully developed mentally or emotionally (not a criticism at all - just how it is, the older you get the more you realise you don't know), and the 'nobody understands me' thing isn't a cliche, it's how it feels. I know I went through stages of being depressed as a teen, but I found listening to metal more a therapy than a cause. Ditto no doubt for emo kids - or any kids who are passionate about any form of music - today. However to return to the point, if there is one, clearly if you listen to gloomy doomy stuff, it's got the potential to exacerbate your own feelings of gloom and doom. Does this make it the band's fault, or the record company's fault? No it doesn't. I guarantee if you looked at reports of these deaths and reports of tragic 80s teen suicides, they would be almost identical in theme and content. Let's face it, stories about 'weird' or 'dangerous' teen subgroups are not exactly new and are guaranteed to sell papers because they will rattle people's cages.

Clem, I think I have to say that - like drugs, alcohol, and other things people indulge in because they like them/they make them feel good, darker forms of music/lyrics do have the potential to make most people feel good, and some people feel bad. That's not to trivialise depression or mental illness generally - and certainly not to say "the music made them do it" but it's just another factor and when you add a lot of factors together, some people are more vulnerable than others and that's what happened here.

Sure, but if you read the reports more carefully, neither of the girls even listened to emo - and one was a rabid Black Eyed Peas fan! - CB

Posted by: Stormy on April 24, 2007 1:38 PM

Sad music can seem like a balm to the soul when you need it most, making you seem not so alone and romantising the pain. However start to rely on it and it may become salt in a wound, making your sadness seem so much worse and inescapable.

Posted by: Bec on April 24, 2007 1:22 PM

I think you under-estimate the ability of music to trigger emotion or enhance it. When you choose to constantly bombard yourself with depressing sullen messages, you're conditioning yourself to have a more negative sullen outlook and to romanticise those emotions.

That doesn't mean that the music is responsible. Something drew these girls to that music. Something made them vulnerable to believing that ending their lives was a reasonable thing to do. That something could be a traumatic event or a hormonal imbalance or a full blown mental illness. What music is very capable of is amplifying the effects of the emotions people are feeling. Music very much affects mood.

So too does being a teenager. Many people do extreme things as they're struggle with the changes that happen as you go from childhood to adulthood.

Add to that a social group where being sullen and moody is encouraged and you have quite a powerful mix of circumstances for someone vulenerable to fall prey to.

In any case the answer isn't censorship of music, or banning social groups. It's education about the effect of music, and it's providing things in life for people to feel positive about.

Even with all that expecting to eliminate suicide is like expecting to achieve world peace. Lovely ideal but it's not going to happen. There will always be someone who's world view is twisted no matter what opportunities to give them.

As for media vultures and placing blame on music or a medium, these people are scum.

Posted by: Sammy01 on April 24, 2007 12:28 PM

I think the main reason people do not seek help for things like depression is that a) in Australia the general culture is to tough it out, be strong and sort out your problems yourself - it sounds harsh, but I think in a lot of cases it works - it did for me - HOWEVER, that is not the case for everyone and many people should look for help. b) People find it embarrassing - again, maybe a symptom of Australia's culture.

Blaming a kind of music for depression and inspiring people to do silly things to themselves is stupid. If you went through every single genre of music you could find depressing and morbid references - Maxwell's Silver Hammer is one of the Beatles most upbeat songs, but it's subject matter is still somewhat disturbing. Blaming the dross that is emo is to lay an undeserved burden at the feet of a genre that really doesn't have a lot of creedence anyway.

Posted by: Sam on April 24, 2007 10:18 AM

This is why I hate people who make depressed emo jokes. It means that if someone does have serious issues, but happens to belong to scene then they're automatically trivialised.

I think part of the problem is that it seems like the people most likely to talk out about their depression are the ones who are doing for attention. Like when I was still in school, and one of the girls was going on about her 'self harming', which I later discovered meant she'd got pissed off one day and punched her own leg. Then later when I was giving a talk at a school camp(after I'd graduated a bunch of us went back to work on one of the camps) I mentioned my depression, and I suddenly realised that I hadn't told a single person, and some of these kids I'd been going to school with since yr1.

Anyway, the point of all that waffle was to agree with you. No one seems to want to talk about depression, especially in regards to one particular person. It's like the thrush of mental health.:P

Posted by: Vincent on April 24, 2007 9:44 AM

When I was in grade 9 I wrote a poem for English class called "poem for the depressed". my 14-year-old understanding of depression was so well-formed that i thought a poem would be all the support someone would need when facing the black dog.

fast forward 10 years and i'm working on a great follow-up poem thoughtfully entitled "it's not as bad as you think" :P