Thousands of Israelis fill Tel Aviv’s Rabin Square in support for soldier who executed Palestinian

Several thousands Israelis filled Tel Aviv's Rabin Square in support of the executioner-soldier Elor Azarya



Last night more than 5,000 Israelis gathered in Tel Aviv’s Rabin Square in a massive outpouring of support for Elor Azarya, the Israeli soldier and French citizen who was recently indicted on manslaughter charges for executing a wounded, immobile Palestinian man on March 24 in the occupied West Bank city of Hebron.

The rally filled Israel’s most well-known public square, akin to New York City’s Times Square. The crowd stretched as far as the eye could see from the stage. An all ages crowd of mostly Mizrachi, but also Russian and Ashkenazi, Israelis traveled from around the country to express anger at Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon, the media, human rights workers, and anyone they branded as “leftists.” Despite their anger at public officials, they displayed unbridled allegiance to the army and state, in a culmination of what was the largest public display of fascism since the last war on Gaza in 2014, when anti-war protesters were beaten in the streets. Among the sea of flags and signs, one read “My honor is loyalty” – the motto of the Nazi SS. Last night was the latest example of the genocidal current running through Israeli society, one that has support from the grassroots to the parliament.

Several thousands Israelis filled Tel Aviv’s Rabin Square in support of the executioner-soldier Elor Azarya

Also in attendance were members of El Yahud, a loose network of Jewish supremacist thugs who organize mob violence against Palestinians and anyone they deem “leftists” that sprouted during the last assault on Gaza – a group journalist David Sheen compared to the Ku Klux Klan.

Member of Jewish street gang El Yahud with member of parliament Oren Hazan in the background

One protester called Moshe Ya’alon “a fucking leftist Kibbutznik” and “Judenrat.” He then called human rights organization B’tselem “fucking mercenaries” paid by Europe that should be tried and executed by the state for treason. “Like the Nuremburg process,” he said before adding,“It’s Brussels, not Tel Aviv.”

Demonstrator wearing t-shirt calling members of B’Tselem Nazis that should be tried and executed. Photo by Dan Cohen

Ya’alon, for his part, compared the demonstrators along with the majority of Israelis who support Azarya to ISIS supporters.

The square is named for Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, who twenty years ago was assassinated by right-wing Israeli Yigal Amir for his role in the Oslo Accords after official incitement from top political and religious officials, including now Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who led a mock funeral demonstration featuring a coffin and hangman’s noose where people chanted “Death to Rabin!”

Earlier that day, Netanyahu responded to the upcoming rally and issued a statement that “The IDF backs its soldiers… Our soldiers are not murderers,” and in keeping with the discourse of fire, “I suggest that everyone lower the flames.”

But the flames inciter-in-chief Netanyahu had poured gas on were raging.

The family of Azraya was seated directly in front of the stage and were treated as national heroes, as if their son was a martyr for a holy cause. While public pressure has already been successful in reducing murder charges the killer faced to manslaughter, the crowd burst into chants of “Elor is a hero,” “release the boy,” and “death to Arabs,” “we will burn your village” and “Channel Two is Al Jazeera” One widely-seen sign said “Kill Them All.”

However severely misguided, the anger was understandable. Numerous top Israeli officials have reiterated support for a policy of summary executions – a military practice commonly known as “confirming the kill” – but Netanyahu and Ya’alon’s initial comments distancing themselves from the killer who had simply followed their instructions sparked fierce criticism from the right wing base and attacks from hard-right politicians looking to cash in on popular sentiment.

The mob’s anger at media, human rights workers, and “leftists” took form in attacks on journalists. The violent atmosphere was was apparent from the start. As the crowd gathered before the event officially began, a mob of young men and boys attacked reporters from Israeli television Channels Two and Ten.

My colleague and independent journalist David Sheen was accused of being a “leftist” and attacked by a group of Israelis, then removed by Israeli police who threatened him with a night in jail if he didn’t immediately leave the premises. Sheen suffered bruising to his leg and was limping. A video of the attack uploaded by right-wing rapper The Shadow was viewed 80,000 times in a matter of hours.

“The police are not there to ensure that human and civil rights are respected,” Sheen commented. “They are there to ensure that the minimal amount of people are injured. When a mob of people starts physically attacking a person for no reason, instead of protecting that person at the cost of making the right-wingers even angrier, they prefer to assuage their anger and cleanse the area of anyone who might not share their racist ideology, no matter how innocuous that person is acting.”

Former member of parliament Sharon Gal of Avigdor Lieberman’s Yisrael Beitenu party emceed the event. “Raise the flags!” he urged the crowd. “This is the people of Israel!”

Also in attendance was ruling Likud party’s Oren Hazan, who earlier this month promised a “bullet in the head of every terrorist” at a town hall in Ramle David Sheen and I documented, and to demolish the Al-Aqsa compound and build a Jewish temple in its place last month. Hazan’s populist statements have made him a crowd favorite, and several people took selfies with the lawmaker.

Kahanists former member of parliament Michael Ben Ari and Boston-born settler leader Baruch Marzel, who Azarya shook hands with directly after he executed the Palestinian man, were in attendance too.

Notably absent were more prominent public figures who have scored political points at the expense of Netanyahu and Ya’alon by appealing to popular sentiments. Top national religious Israeli commentator Kalman Liebskind noted the significance of the absence of the mainly Ashkenazi national-religious settler camp, asserting that it was due to their lack of intra-Jewish class, race and religious solidarity:

It was an impressive rally. Among the people who were there were from Lod, Ramle and the periphery. Who wasn’t there? National religious and settlers. The national religious camp always has its hero soldiers, and they always seem to be from our camp. The religious youth can list off the accomplishments of our soldier heroes, but they will never commemorate those soldiers from Be’er Sheva that died right next to them. We’ve never cared for people like Elor Azarya who are carrying the stretcher. Although it’s thanks to that small group that we are allowed to sit comfortably in our strongholds. And we say that we are connected to the people, but let’s stop bluffing ourselves. But the truth is, there is nothing connecting the settlements and the periphery. Imagine if the soldier was one of ours. You would have seen a massive turnout. There would be 100s of buses. Hizme checkpoint [settler checkpoint from West Bank] would be bumper to bumper from all the Tel Aviv bound traffic. Jewish Home party members of parliament would have been there an hour early in full force. In a sentence, Religious Zionists proved again yesterday that all they care about is Religious Zionists. An ocean separates us from Charlie [father of Elor Azarya] from Ramle.

Speeches delivered by Azraya’s parents and sister were the somber exceptions to the otherwise celebratory atmosphere which featured performances by well-known Israeli musical acts including right-wing rapper Subliminal, Maor Edi, Amos Elgali, and Moshik Afia, who sang You and I will change the world, described by Sheen as a “well-known Jewish hippie anthem.”

At times, the performance was overtly festive. A group of Brestlev Orthodox Jews known as the Happy Haredim joined performers onstage, blowing shofars (ceremonial ram’s horns) stuffed with wooden dowels affixed with Israeli flags.

Right-wing rapper Subliminal and a Brestlev man blowing a shofar during the rally in Tel Aviv for soldier-executioner Elor Azarya Photo by Dan Cohen

Directly in front of the stage, a performance artist wearing a bizarre oversized piece stood in front of Azraya’s family members. The piece consisted of four life-size dolls and the artist dressed in mock army and police uniforms with their hands and feet locked up.

Performance artist performs for Azarya family Photo by Dan Cohen

As the demonstration ended and the crowd poured into the streets, a man in a military uniform took photographs of me. Queries to official army spokespeople as to his identity have not been answered.

Afterwards, I escaped with Israeli activist Ronnie Barkan to a nearby cafe filled with patrons who paid no attention to the massive demonstration nearby. “As a soldier myself, I support the soldier too,” the server told to me as he served me a vegan sandwich. “I’ve also been in that situation.”

About Dan Cohen

Dan Cohen is an independent journalist and filmmaker based in Palestine. He tweets at @dancohen3000.

Posted In:

82 Responses

This must be a huge mistake. We have heard ad nauseam that it is the Arabs who call for Israel to be wiped off the earth, so how can this be? Israelis are such nice, compassionate people, and will not behave as if they are filled with hatred for others.

Erase the signs on the flag and replace it with swastikas – it would look like an angry mob of nazis calling for the blood of those they despise.

… The family of Azraya was seated directly in front of the stage and were treated as national heroes, as if their son was a martyr for a holy cause. While public pressure has already been successful in reducing murder charges the killer faced to manslaughter, the crowd burst into chants of “Elor is a hero,” “release the boy,” and “death to Arabs,” “we will burn your village” and “Channel Two is Al Jazeera” One widely-seen sign said “Kill Them All.” …

Zio-supremacists are truly hateful and immoral people.

… Former member of parliament Sharon Gal of Avigdor Lieberman’s Yisrael Beitenu party emceed the event. “Raise the flags!” he urged the crowd. “This is the people of Israel!” …

Seems more like it’s the people of religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. Or is Mr. Gal suggesting that non-Jewish Israelis – who are also the people of Israel – support the recent, cold-blooded execution?

[EXCERPT] . . . In Israel, right-wing forces are using the recently filmed execution as an experiment. Their goal is to test the Israeli mainstream reaction when faced with an uncensored cold-blooded murder of a Palestinian. Thus, Israeli society faces a watershed in the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: If this incident is to pass without a firm conviction of the soldier involved and his commanders, together with an independent inquiry into the lax rules of engagement of the IDF, a dangerous, notorious, and graphic precedent will be set. The precedent will solidify the complete dehumanization of Palestinians and pave the way for further ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and even genocide, en route toward the messianic fantasy of Greater Israel. [END]

Also, this is the first time I’ve seen the culpability of the commanders discussed. Watching the video one can trace the shooter, it was clear an officer went back and called him forward. He walked 14 to 15 paces to the officer. There was another soldier when the shooter arrived. That other soldier heard the words said by the officer and immediately moved away. The officer turned to face the wounded man then reached out and pushed on the shooter’s gun, obviously instructing him what to do. The shooter stepped forward as he loaded his chamber. Others nearby moved or turned away. The shooter did as he was told.

This truly is a watershed moment for the Jewish equivalent of Sharia Law…. and for the meaning of Israel.

My honor is loyalty was indeed the motto of the SS. It’s use has continued since then by neonazis and white supremacists. It’s no suprise and quite fitting that it is also used by the racist zionist thugs in Israel. There is barely a degree of difference in either motive, method or goals between white supremacists and surpemacist zionists. Two peas in a pod.

[EXCERPTS] . . . It would seem, then, in view of these facts and certain others that will appear later, that new masters were riding the saddle in the South. Whether or not the Civil War had been fought to work the ruin of the agrarian power of the South, and whether or not the Reconstructors had been the advanced missionaries of capitalism, the results—victory for the industrialists and unimpeded expansion—were the same. Nor, as has been seen, did the restoration of home rule mean the restoration of the old order: there were speedily found in the South willing and ready hands to carry forward the torch of “progress.” These willing hands were not all recruited in Georgia. A reexamination of the postwar careers of other Southern leaders of the time, might throw a new light upon this period.

One is reminded that the new rulers were, and are still, called “Bourbons.” Are we laboring a mere matter of terminology? “Gov. Colquitt and Gen. Gordon,” writes one historian in perfect good faith, “stood as striking types of the most cherished sentiments and practices of our ante-war civilization” 24 Instead of a mere mistaken terminology, then, might not the confusion be more fundamental? Might it not be that a golden voice, a flowing beard, a courtly manner have been accepted at face value for “the most cherished sentiments and practices”? At any rate, it would seem wise to avoid the term “Bourbon.” In its place, and with the realization that all political epithets share the fault of slovenly thinking, the slogan adopted in 1872, the “New Departure” Democrats will be employed. For several reasons it seems more appropriate: the New Departure marked the Democratic party’s first acquiescence in a national platform in the policy of reconstruction; in Georgia it marked the delayed acceptance of Governor Brown’s advice to combine the “practical view of the business man” with the duties of the “statesman”; and it marked also loss of control of the party by such men as Toombs and Stephens, and incidentally the defeat of Stephens by General Gordon in the race for the Senate. It was, indeed, a “New Departure.”

Having been kept away from the table like naughty children, the South, that is, a small but growing class of Southern men, now rushed in as if by signal to help themselves at the Great Barbecue. Some of them forgot their manners and snatched food with both hands, and all of them forgot that they were crowding out about ninety per cent of the home folks, the farm-

24 1. W. Avery, op. cit, p. 604. Italics mine.

ers, who were not invited, and got none of the ‘cue. But the New Departure was tacitly accepted as a blessing to all, and for a while the South followed behind its leaders, who bravely pushed forward into the era of progress.

It is important to observe that the feud between the old leaders and the new rulers went on over the heads of the submerged masses of the state. Neither the old agrarian leader of the type of Toombs nor the new industrialist Brown was the spokesman of that forgotten majority. The agrarian masses, still leaderless, had not yet stirred from their sleep.

The submissive loyalty that the leaders of the New Departure commanded in Georgia conformed to a pattern found in all Southern states after home rule was restored. “The ‘Solid South,’ ” wrote Henry Watterson in 1879, “is a reaction against proscription, attended by misgovernment, and a protest against the ever-recurring menace of Federal interference.” 25 Thus the new discipline was feudal rather than democratic. It was based upon fear—fear of the Negro menace [i.e.,”the super-predators” ~ J.L.D.], the scalawag menace, the Federal menace, menaces real and imaginary. As the price of protection, it demanded unquestioning allegiance. White men could not divide on lines of class interest, nor could differences over measures and candidates be expressed at the ballot box. Such matters were settled by the small clique that ran the machine. Democratic forms were observed, but their observance was entirely perfunctory. Party platforms contained nothing but such platitudes as all white men could agree upon. Incompetency and weakness in candidates had to be overlooked for the sake of white solidarity. Suspected graft in public office could not be exposed for fear of Negro domination. Ballot-box stuffing had to be tolerated when white supremacy was threatened. Such was the moral intimidation of this feudal discipline that it was widely felt that to scratch a ticket was “treason to the white race,” and to make open declaration of independence was “an effort to africanize the state.” 26 In this atmosphere national issues, to say nothing of local ones, were almost lost sight of; politics became a matter of personalities, and public affairs the business of a few politicians.

When one recalls the long tradition of independence and political conflict behind these people, one is surprised that they submitted as long as they did. For not only had they seceded from the Union, but threatened secession from the Confederacy, and even the presence of an invading army could not stop these incorrigible individualists from casting ballots and debating the very existence of their state. Now that peace was restored, they were asked to render a blind obedience that heretofore they had refused even in war. . .

■ P.S. Hillary Clinton is essentially a “New Departure” Democrat!!! No matter how flawed she may be, WE ABSOLUTELY MUST get together behind her, or risk being ruled by the likes of Cruz or Trump, and to protect us from the super-predators [i.e., “the Negro menace” ~ J.L.D.]! ! !

We also see the willingness of the pro-Israel “diaspora” to stand with and agree with people in North America and Europe who’re no different then Nazis and neo-nazis, provided that they don’t hate Jews and instead hate Arabs, Iranians, Turks, Kurds, and indeed all non-Jews in the Middle East.

We see the same thing in regards to “as long as they hate the Muslims then they’re fine” on the religious level.

One only has to look at what passes for “argument” in “favour of Israel” that comes out of the mouths of these people in real life, on social media, etc.

“No no it’s all lies those Arabs are liars” is literally the tamest, least offensive thing I’ve ever heard. That doesn’t speak well at all for these people.

What strikes me is just how different German soldiers look from other soldiers, you know with the two horns on their foreheads, and real tanks and machine guns. They actually killed people – unarmed soldiers of tiny enemy armies, with airplanes dropping leaflets with peace offers, also unarmed resistance fighters, and scores of civilians. No army before or ever since has done any such thing. I will never understand why they did not just go back home when they realized they couldn’t win the war, like the Americans do, regularly, pulling out their troops from places like Vietnam to Iraq, returning to business as usual. It’s routine by now for a country that has been at war every single year of its existence, save bout 20-25. How many of those can be called defensive wars, or aggressive wars that turn into a desperate struggle to save the homeland from being entirely destroyed, occupied, abolished as a state, and divided among the victors?

I do hope it never gets to this in the US. Samson option would be likely. The exceptional country won’t just implode and concede failure, as did the USSR

I normally use articles like this one by Dan Cohen as an opportunity to “only half-jokingly refer to The Dissociative State of Israel”. But recentlly, I’ve discontinued “half-jokingly” referring to “The Dissociative State of Israel”.
Israel is becoming a ‘rubber room’ writ large full of Tutti Fruttis!
* Dissociation (psychology) – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)

P.S. BLUR:
“I got my head checked
By a jumbo jet
It wasn’t easy
But nothing is
No . . .”

The people have spoken.
The people were less constrained than at the Nuremberg rallies.
They were there following their own free will, in fact, as free will is defined in Western democracies.
The people that have so spoken with impressive unanimity have deserved whatever is coming to them. The few deluded decent Meistervolk citizens who are still there are doing no good anymore. They better move out now.

“The people were less constrained than at the Nuremberg rallies. They were there following their own free will, in fact, as free will is defined in Western democracies.”

The Nuremberg rallies were the annual convention of the NSDAP, or Nazi party. They started in 1923, moved from Munich to Weimar, then Nuremberg, where they were, in the later 1920s, either cancelled by the party for lack of funds, or by the city of Nuremberg because of violent clashes between Nazis and Communists. They were regularly held at Nuremberg, for about a week in September, after Hitler came to power, from 1933-1938. The last rally, in 1939, was announced as the ‘Rally for Peace’, but cancelled on short notice. The invasion of Poland was on Sept. 1st, 1939.

So, to correct your absurd comparison: the early nazi rallies did indeed occur in a perfectly liberal democracy that was way ahead of, say, contemporary Jim Crow America: One person, one vote (including women), across the country. Nobody HAD to go there, and most Germans did not. During the actual Nazi period, maximum attendance was 500 000 people, and they did not HAVE to go there either. So that’s less than 1% of the German population, or about the number of registered Jews in Germany at the time. A lot of people, no doubt, but not some big majority.

And the great majority of Israelis did not attend the rally above either, nor did they have too.

“The people that have so spoken with impressive unanimity have deserved whatever is coming to them. The few deluded decent Meistervolk citizens who are still there are doing no good anymore. They better move out now.”

You are not only a moron, but also advocating a crime against humanity: collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.

Antidote (what to?)
First, quoting the very poster: [The Nuremberg rallies] “were regularly held at Nuremberg, for about a week in September, after Hitler came to power, from 1933-1938.”
And discusses exclusively the earlier, opposition-party rallies.
The later rallies were obligatory for a huge number of people in the area –they had the excuse of being under a murderous dictatorship. Unlike the murderous riffraff, representative of the overwhelming majority opinion in the Zionist entity.

Sounds like a perfect Zionist propaganda stringer.

No need to call moderators with capital letters. They already censor whenever they can. In this case, there is no call to crimes against humanity but to a correction of a huge crime against humanity, with a fervent hope that after a representative plebiscite the Palestinian people will offer Palestinian citizenship to the local-born Meistervolk (and the even more fervent one that the majority of the latter will relocate of its own will, seeing their contempt for Arab countries and their love of the “West”.) At any rate hoping against hope that they will not be criminal to the point of resisting justice.

Don’t worry, “Antidote”. The Moderators notwithstanding, I have made it my mission to make sure nobody, nobody says anything worse about Jews or Israelis than we say about others, and I will never let anybody, no how, no time, no way, say anything worse about Jews than we say about each other! Don’t worry, it will not pass without a whole lotta kvetching going on.

Oh, BTW, could people help me out? I’m confused about antisemitism. Is antisemitism such a malevolent, dynamic force that one wrong trope will turn the BDS and Palestinian solidarity movement into an antisemitic crusade?

Or is antisemitism such a spent force, and so reviled, that the slightest hint of it, one wrong trope, will invalidate the BDS movement and make it a laughingstock? I can’t figure it out.

“…would you help me with this call?
You see the time-stamp is old and faded.”

Hmmmm, nah, how about:

“Moderator, moderator, print my comments if you please.
All day and night I write them up,
And then you censor me!
My comments are within the rules,
And his are way off-base!
So ban his comments right away
And move mine to first place”

And now that you have confirmed (in your mind) the only possible future “solution”, your work as a moral purist is over. You may retire in peace.

You sound exactly like the wall-to-wall propaganda for Algérie française that used to fill to overflow all the right-thinking publications and radio talks and meetings when I was a kid. You aren’t even trying to be original.

If you insist from the start in giving up, that’s what you get.
The sole owners of sovereignty over all Palestine are the Palestinians.

Besides, where are your compromising Zionists?
And who said one is to retire when things are seen clearly? It’s the give-up propagandists who should get retired.

echinococcus: You sound exactly like the wall-to-wall propaganda for Algérie française that used to fill to overflow all the right-thinking publications and radio talks and meetings when I was a kid.
————–

Are you still clinging to the delusion that Palestine is Algeria? When do you predict the decisive guerilla war against the colonists will begin?

I’m not sure that it confirms or even suggests that any solution is possible, or at any rate within reach. I don’t think we should ever forget that the 2ss, in every form canvassed, is deeply and shockingly unfair. It may be that something which is unfair is also the best thing available but that doesn’t matter very much if nothing much at all is available, as seems to be the case here. This freak show plus the grand, brutal gesture over the Golan are very unpromising, are they not?

What is being criticized and compared to that situation is the gross defeatism of both the colonialist camp then and Sibiriak now. If blowing that analogy up to the point of identifying a totally different situation with the one now at hand is not the maximum of all possible sophistry, one wonders what is.

Besides,
– where are your compromising Zionists?
– who said one is to retire when things are seen clearly?
It’s the give-up propagandists who should get retired.

echinococcus: What is being criticized and compared to that situation is the gross defeatism of both the colonialist camp then and Sibiriak now. If blowing that analogy up to the point of identifying a totally different situation with the one now at hand is not the maximum of all possible sophistry, one wonders what is.
————–

The fact is, echinococcus has repeatedly drawn analogies between Palestine and Algeria that go far beyond simply comparing degrees of “defeatism” in various camps.

A few examples (emphasis added):
———————–

[echinococcus:] Of course the solution will come by general war , as long as the Zionists are Zionists, i.e. crazy fanatics. Look at all the war of liberation it took to free even Algeria –where there wasn’t any such cult craziness, only colonial interest.

* * * * *

That the majority of the Zionist Herrenvolk will flee the restoration of Palestinian sovereignty or fight it to the death is obvious. That, even in the optimistic case of the Palestinians offering citizenship to all the Herrenvolk population (which they are not obliged to do in any case.)

We have a model to study very seriously, much more relevant than South Africa: that is Algeria.

* * * * *

It looks like the point where they could limit the damage is long gone. The frightening thought suggested by the conditions is that an Algeria-type solution may also be already too optimistic for the Zionist entity.

* * * * *

All I can say is that, while there is one known case of a miracle in South Africa, thanks to an unimaginable degree of maturity on both sides, things are known to have developed very differently too, as in Algeria. The way the cookie is crumbling in Palestine is not encouraging at all, as an extreme degree of war and violence looks more and more probable

* * * *

Algeria was a resounding success: it got rid of an extremely well-entrenched colonial Herrenvolk, not only formally.

The only reason for the horrendous bloodshed was the pigheadedness of the colonialists. The silver lining was that they were scared stiff and left the country (where they had way, way deeper roots than the Herrenvolk occupying Palestine.)

Now consider that the racial supremacist occupiers of Palestine are obviously much worse in racism and pigheadedness than the French colonialists in Algeria –and scared much worse.

If and when conditions realign themselves, all this promises a war of never-seen levels of Zionist barbarism and a reestablishment of Palestine as a single state.

—————————

Echinococcus is, of course, free to dream about an Algerian-style full-scale bloody-war solution, but the burden is on him is to show how how such a solution is at all possible –and in fact desirable–in the case of Palestine. It’s not sophistry to ask him to do that.

What is sophistry is to frame a false choice wherein anything less than total acceptance of echino’s Algerian-style solution is characterized as “gross defeatism”.

The fact that not a millimeter has been conceded by the US-Zionist occupier and is totally unlikely to be conceded in the future, that landgrab and slow genocide have only worsened and are only likely to worsen may have become evident even to you by now. No matter how much concession you advocate along with other defeatists, unauthorized by the owners of the place.

If you have reliable evidence that the (now relatively slow) genocide will stop with a new batch of concessions, please present it. If you have reliable evidence that the Palestinians are the only (or rare) people who will accept and submit to gross injustice (short, of course, of a successful genocide), please present it. Even if you have reliable evidence that your “peace talk” with the current constellation of powers, no matter the variety of Zionists in charge, isn’t the wildest of wild dreams, please present it. But for fks sake stop attacking those that point to an obvious no-exit existing situation as if it were our creation. Everything we know from recent history says that pressure cookers w/o effective valves will necessarily explode if the fire is not turned off.

It’s no use continuing to recommend that the Palestinians lie down and die or disappear: they very probably will continue ignoring your wise counsel.

echin: likely to worsen may have become evident even to you by now. No matter how much concession you advocate along with other defeatists

i don’t understand what Sibiriak said in the past that’s left you with the impression he said things couldn’t get worse. are you just using a rhetorical pt scoring thing or did he ever claim or imply things couldn’t get worse?

personally, i don’t think what’s happening now bodes well for the feasibility of a 1SS either, tho that is my preferred outcome. and as for the “desirability” it’s hard for me to merge “desirable” w/outcomes entailing lots of blood and death.

can you answer the question he asked? When do you predict the decisive guerrilla war against the colonists will begin?

you think everyone who is not in sync with your outcome or logic is therefore necessarily a defeatist or a propagandist. i’m not so sure that is the case. some people (even palestinians) simply think a 2ss is more desirable, more practical or more likely and may not see that, at this juncture, as defeat (and it’s not my business to judge them so). they may see it as a more likely outcome or more feasible one. tho i am not one of those people, i don’t think nastily stalking 2 staters as defeatist and propagandist makes you sound honorable, righteous or correct.

It’s no use continuing to recommend that the Palestinians lie down and die or disappear

did he recommend Palestinians lie down and die or disappear? or is this your rhetorical way of making some point/winning the argument.

they very probably will continue ignoring your wise counsel.

speaking of wise counsel, when do you suggest the decisive palestinian guerrilla war against the colonists will begin? or do you think it has started.

Mooser: “Sibiriak” are you making the assumption that the Jewish fad for Zionism will not pass? I think it will.

————–

No, I’m not making that assumption at all–though I’d say it’s more than a “fad”, and that Jewish Zionism (including its American expression) is not fully coterminous with Israeli-Jewish ultra-nationalism, racism and religious extremism.

i don’t understand what Sibiriak said in the past that’s left you with the impression he said things couldn’t get worse. are you just using a rhetorical pt scoring thing or did he ever claim or imply things couldn’t get worse?

No, what he says implies that things can get substantially better by a peaceful arrangement with the Zionists and the US.

personally, i don’t think what’s happening now bodes well for the feasibility of a 1SS either, tho that is my preferred outcome. and as for the “desirability” it’s hard for me to merge “desirable” w/outcomes entailing lots of blood and death.

Absolutely agreed.

can you answer the question he asked? When do you predict the decisive guerrilla war against the colonists will begin?

How the hell am I to know? Am I a seer? All we know for sure is that we have no example of invaded, occupied, unassimilated people giving up without a successful genocide or mass expulsion.

you think everyone who is not in sync with your outcome or logic is therefore necessarily a defeatist or a propagandist. i’m not so sure that is the case. some people (even palestinians) simply thienk a 2ss is more desirable, more practical or more likely and may not see that, at this juncture, as defeat (and it’s not my business to judge them so). they may see it as a more likely outcome or more feasible one. tho i am not one of those people, i don’t think nastily stalking 2 staters as defeatist and propagandist makes you sound honorable, righteous or correct.

No problem with anyone supporting a 2-state solution, i.e. a non-solution that will very probably leave both the Palestinian sentiment of unfairness and the Zionist state untouched, except that it is a total impossibility. Hence my request:

“If you have reliable evidence that the (now relatively slow) genocide will stop with a new batch of concessions, please present it. If you have reliable evidence that the Palestinians are the only (or rare) people who will accept and submit to gross injustice (short, of course, of a successful genocide), please present it. Even if you have reliable evidence that your “peace talk” with the current constellation of powers, no matter the variety of Zionists in charge, isn’t the wildest of wild dreams, please present it.”
i.e. there is no “2-state solution” as long as there is Zionism.

did he recommend Palestinians lie down and die or disappear? or is this your rhetorical way of making some point/winning the argument.

No interest in winning any arguments, but a lot of interest in trying to see clear. Relying on a wish for a “2-state solution” is condemning the Palestinians to continue having “talks” and “negotiations” to Kingdom Come –or rather, until their collective murder and expulsion from Palestine is complete to the same degree as the American Indians’, or the Armenians of Turkey, etc. If you think otherwise, please give some evidence.

speaking of wise counsel, when do you suggest the decisive palestinian guerrilla war against the colonists will begin? or do you think it has started.

How do you know it will have the “guerilla war” form? How do you know what will be “decisive”? The resistance had started, and that it was decimated and totally disarmed for a while by the Oslo buyout; one thing is certain, again based on valuable past experience: there won’t be any resistance to mention before the PA becomes a target before even the Zionist entity itself.

“are you making the assumption that the Jewish fad for Zionism will not pass? I think it will”

-The international Jewish support for zionism is sure to fade in the future at the rate Israel is alienating itself, but not Israeli zionism. I think supporting an Algeria type solution is just as extreme as supporting recolonization of Palestinians in the countries that host them in refugee camps (Lebanon, Jordan, etc).
From its earliest days, Zionism used the tactic of creating a nationalism separate from the historical roots in the countries of origin from which jews migrated to Palestine. Unlike the Algerians who were immersed in French culture and spoke French, zionism created a new culture – reinvented a historic language, and even altered the religion to support the zionist cause (for example “In modern Israel, early Zionists redefined Lag BaOmer from a rabbinic-oriented celebration to a commemoration of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire”).
Over 4.5 million Israeli jews were born in Israel. These new generations of zionists are growing up with no ties whatsoever to their countries of origin.
This situation makes the expulsion of the current jewish Israeli zionist population from Palestine and repopulation elsewhere worlds away from the resolution of the conflict in Algeria.
Resolution of the conflict by bloodshed is not only undesirable but is also impractical even in the distant future.

“I don’t think what’s happening now bodes well for the feasibility of a 1SS”

– hard to say. In a way increased settlement in the west bank undermines the 2SS causing more support worldwide for the 1SS. I think it would be an interesting tactic by Palestinian leadership to “demand” that Israel annex the west bank and Gaza. Then the excuses that the
Israeli government use would fall through – bringing the apartheid out into the open.

“there is no “2-state solution” as long as there is Zionism”
– on the contrary. I would say that zionism has the most interest in reaching a 2SS. It is the most practical way of preserving the Jewish majority. I would say that the 1SS requires zionist nationalism to make more compromises than the 2SS.

“some people (even palestinians) simply think a 2SS is more desirable, more practical or more likely and may not see that, at this juncture, as defeat”

– Important to add that many see the 2SS as a temporary solution (the fact that both sides insist on the 2SS completely resolving all issues might be one of the reasons an agreement has not been reached). A temporary 2SS will allow peacful coexistence while gradually normalizing relationships between the peoples. Eventually the 2 state solution would most likely evolve into a 1SS (mostly due to the geographical divide between Gaza and the west bank, but also due to the historical connection both people feel to the land on both sides of the 1967 border).
There are of course 2SS solutions that sidestep nationalism such as 2states1homeland.org – could these be the base for a temporary solution leading up to 1SS?

Over 4.5 million Israeli jews were born in Israel. These new generations of zionists are growing up with no ties whatsoever to their countries of origin.

Wrong. For all of them,
– they have one or two, etc. passports from their parents’/ancestors’ (real) birthright, or
– have the right to one or two, etc. citizenships based on their parents’ (real) birthright, or
– are entitled to the US guarantee of accepting all the rest, not to mention the US (and European) open door.

That’s plenty of “ties”.

Basically, the “Algerian solution” bugaboo is just ill-informed. What the Algerians did was to offer the choice between Algerian citizenship or emigration, eminently logical and legal.

“there is no “2-state solution” as long as there is Zionism” – on the contrary. I would say that zionism has the most interest in reaching a 2SS. It is the most practical way of preserving the Jewish majority. I would say that the 1SS requires zionist nationalism to make more compromises than the 2SS.

That, of course, is so in cold reason, something that the smarter (=”liberal”) Zionists can see. In fact, a 2-state situation is the only one that may ensure the continuation of Zionism.
But then, Zionism is not rational, it is an ideology undissolubly married to maudlin tribal unreason. Human beings rational with regard to their “Jewish state” are not to be found in any significant amount within it, and its indoctrination is geometrically increasing the illogical component of its newer generations.

The only policies discernible within existing Zionism re the 2-state “solution” are a. infinite and interminable so-called negotiations for a single-state solution with municipal police for the native reservations –any conclusion having been deferred to the time after a successful genocide/expulsion; b. uncamouflaged annexation with WWII German-style settlement-cum-genocide.

The most despicable thing with regard to this “2-state” discussion is that Zionist propaganda people use the logical argument that you just presented as if it were some kind of proof that they are not implementing the irrational solution that they are in fact implementing, appealing to us to believe that they are logical actors rather than believing our own lying eyes.

echin:
-“have the right to one or two, etc. citizenships based on their parents’ (real) birthright”

I did not say that their origin cannot be traced. I said 3rd generation Israeli jews have no ties whatsoever to Poland, Romania, Iraq, Morroco, etc. They don’t speak the language, they don’t fit in. They’re not wanted back. This makes the solution impractical. Shipping all Israeli jews to easter island would make more sense.

-“the US guarantee of accepting all the rest”

I have had a vision of the future: “Senator Netanyahu has announced that he is running for president!”

-“that they are not implementing the irrational solution that they are in fact implementing”

I didn’t understand what you meant by this.
In my opinion it’s hard to really understand what the end game is for Mr. prime minister for life. At times it seems he doesn’t want an end game but rather to keep the status quo endlessly. But mostly I feel that his plan is and always has been to annex the west bank without giving right of return and to spin off the gaza strip to Egypt.

The soldier being honored by this sick Zionist Israeli society murdered a man who lay on the floor with an injury. This man attacked a hostile military occupier not some innocent civilian, but a brutal occupier who is illegally oppressing him on his own land. The medic soldier resorted to a wilful act of murder demonstrating depravity. He should have received a life sentence for what he did.

Israeli society was polled and the majority stand with the soldier. Zionism is following its natural course creating a fascist, sick and depraved society. This is what Zionism does; this is what Zionism is. Israeli society is getting more and more extremist and this will not change until the world acts with Boycotts, Divestment and Sanctions. There is no other way to stop this.

What street or school is going to have the name of this murdering punk? Netanyahoo’s government has put the finishing touches on a golem. I don’t see anything in the future but more bloodshed.

I’m very worried about journalists here. These mobs don’t want anyone outside of this “hell-hole” to see what they’re doing because it’s very, very bad and very reminiscent of horrible days gone by. Be careful Dan Cohen –

Can’t wait to hear the response to the fascist zionist state of israHELL and its bloodthirsty ravenous beasts calling for death to Arabs, death to leftists, death to anyone who isn’t a carbon copy of adolf hitler.

Will the white house press secretary be “concerned”? What about Great Britain, Germany, Russia, France, Spain, Rome? They’ve all watched as Netanyahoo and his co-conspirators go further and further to the right, whip up the hyenas into a frenzy and then when they do what they’ve been told to do, tut-tut about it? Karma is a bitch.

The problem is that the Pro-Israel crow, like Goldberg, are very well plugged into the Corporate Media. They have the ability and power to establish the “Agenda” of what is discussed in the I/P issue. So fascist demonstrations get ignored while imaginary Hamas human shields get touted 24/7.

“However severely misguided, the anger was understandable.” No, it’s not understandable to people who are raised to be moral and who are taught to respect and value human life. This is not how the “chosen” are raised… which is becoming increasingly obvious.

You know, Israelis are constantly accusing the Palestinians of teaching their children to hate Jews, from an early age, even in school textbooks.
But I think the opposite is true, which you in fact alluded to.

Dan Cohen didn’t say the number was downplayed from 5k to 2k.
He complained that Israeli media was trying to marginalize the rally by claiming that ONLY 2000 showed up (while in fact 2000 lunatics is quite a large number of lunatics)

|| MaxNarr: Stop and think that your hero and martyr was an attempted murderer, and the enemy you seek to vilify nuetralized him. Realize that you defend evil. ||

A man committed a crime and was left severely wounded and incapacitated on the ground. Rather than receiving medical treatment and then being brought to justice and held accountable for his crimes, the man was executed in cold blood by a Zio-supremacist Occupation Forces soldier.

The soldier and the system he represents are evil – an evil that hateful and immoral people like you willingly associate yourselves with and support, justify and defend.

So maz narr, you will have no problem when an illegal squatter gets his head blown off when he is caught trying to burn a Palestinians home and murder those inside.

No problem at all , eh max.

Btw , International Law, (I know you don,t think that applies to Israel,s Jews ) allows oppressed people to attack or kill their oppressors.Go look it up max , instead of making a fool of yourself here and embarrassing peaceful , law abiding Jewish people.

You do understand that by your own logic ,the British had every right to shoot a member of the Irgun terrorist gang caught shooting their soldiers -even if he was wounded and posed no threat .You also realise that you place your own soldiers in danger when they are captured.Careful what you wish for and don,t come whining when one of your most moral thugs gets his head blown all over some side walk.

Jews are not squatters in Judea. I think you are referencing the Duma arson attack which was not committed by Jews. Under international law, the entire of Palestine is Jewish land. Read up on UN Charter Article 80, thanks.

There’s been all kinds Zionists here, but you seem almost maliciously determined not just to ‘step in it’ but smear it all over and throw it around.
Very hard to believe you are real. Great parody, tho, pitch-perfect.

Jews are not squatters in the west bank. Israelis are illegal squatters in the west bank and everywhere else including sheba farms and the golan, outside of the legal borders of Israel as declared in 1948.

|| MaxNarr: eljay, “except that it’s not” is not an acceptable, nor scholarly argument. I invite you to try again. ||

No need for me to try again. You made the assertion that “the entire of Palestine is Jewish land”. The onus is on you to provide the acceptable and scholarly argument – the proof – that supports your assertion. The sentence “Read up on UN Charter Article 80, thanks” does not constitute that proof.

Wait a minute, “MaxNarr”, I’ve put too many quarter in the blue box not to ask these questions, and I wanna know, up-front; is it Orthodox Jewish land, Conservative Jewish land, Reform Jewish land, or secular Jewish land?
So let’s have the split, right now, what’s the percentages?

I just can’t understand it: I spent 20 years in the US military, being taught concepts such as when and when not to use deadly force, and by the Geneva Convention when someone is no longer considered an active combatant, etc. About how we as American service members are held to a higher standard, and that we are expected to live up to that standard both in uniform and out. Then I watch a group of undisciplined thugs – cowards in uniforms, vehicles, and weapons (like the one I carried) that U.S. (my) tax dollars helped or completely purchased, summarily execute – murder a man who’s humanity, who’s life has been reduced to trash in their minds! I cannot understand how in 2016, this and similar barbaric acts of a society can go on, or worse yet – be rewarded through appropriations and a myriad of perks, favourtism status.

Rest assured, if I or any of my comrades committed this cowardly act, charges of murder, war crimes, amongst others would be levied and QUICKLY! Fox News, CNN, and all the news outlets domestically and WORLD-WIDE would be all over it – guaranteed! I turn on the news here – no mention whatsoever – nor a story on Bing, Yahoo, MSN, nothing. Unbelievable!!! Apparently the atrocities don’t matter, nor the conduct of Israeli citizens, nor the conduct of the settlers, nor the Israeli Government policies. The citizens and politicians that support these atrocities, ignore them, as well as the news agencies that censor them are complicit in these crimes! How is it that we servicemen are held to higher standards, our countrymen can and do criticize my government without being labeled as an “anti-Americanite”, and that our news outlets would be quick to report any domestic slight (and beat it like a dead horse), but hardly anyone – including our corrupt politicians would dare criticize Israel (right, Ted and Hillary)!!!

@freedom235 – That’s why you should pass these articles on to friends and family to keep them informed as the US is spending all kinds of money keeping these news stories (which are unfortunately commonplace, among other atrocities) out of american homes and instead feeding them sound bites and shiny happy people stories about israel. Pass this on. I send these articles to my brother and sister who haven’t heard squat about israel unless it’s a breaking news story about Hamaas launching a roman candle into an open field somewhat in ‘israel’.

“I spent 20 years in the US military, being taught concepts such as when and when not to use deadly force”…”we as American service members are held to a higher standard”

In no way am I defending the despicable murderer – but to anyone who has been exposed to US conduct in its “war on terror” – your statement is out of place.
Read up on the Haditha massacre and see what the US high standard has brought to the middle east.

But what is of concern here Max, is not your vacuous distractions, rather the ugly racism of a large crowd of Israelis, defending a brutal murderer who is only one small cog in a vicious hateful violent regime.

Support Mondoweiss’s independent journalism today

Mondoweiss brings you the news that no one else will. Your tax-deductible donation enables us to deliver information, analysis and voices stifled elsewhere. Please give now to maintain and grow this unique resource.