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Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by JimD

There's a used Hobie cat 16 at what seems like a good price I'm going to be taking a look at in a few days. Anyone familiar enough with them to offer advice on what I should be looking at? Ie, are there points on these boats that are prone to wear and failure, etc? I would like to use it as the basis for a tri. For example, this Woods tri uses production 16 foot beach cat hulls for amas.

I'd email the designer and ask what sort of beachcat he has in mind. Those are not H16 hulls. H16s had low volume bows, so might not be the best choice for a tri conversion. Although the Tremolino was a pretty good boat. Ask the designer, anyway.

If you do go look at the 16 look for:

Soft decks. Push down on the deck in front of the pylons. Soft decks are death, don't buy the boat except for parts, you have to do a lot of work to fix the decks.

Look at the mast for the comp tip. Hobie required a fiberglass mast section on the top of the H16 mast when they were owned by Coleman. Very bad, adds weight and also makes it hard or impossible to reef the sail, which is a bigger deal on a tri than on a beachcat, I would think. I wouldn't put a comptip mast on a tri like that.

I think you can find a better boat to do a conversion on. A Tornado or a big Nacra or something, really any big beachcat will have lots more volume in the bows and a better mast than the 16.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by Dan St Gean

Check for hull delamination--especially on the decks. For your purposes, a non comptip mast would be better for making the sail reefable later. They can be had so cheaply, you can get a really complete one for less than a grand.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Doing great! I'm spending Christmas in Sanibel with family and have gotten out for two sails and two kayak trips thus far over Christmas break. I'm still messing with outriggers and cats--thinking of reorganizing the fleet a bit. Right now I have a Guillemot Expedition, the Ulua sailing outrigger, the Tamanu hull (destined for outrigger or cat duty), and the Hobie 18 all up in Chicago. My father in law has the Hobie Wave and three kayaks down in Sanibel. He's probably not going to bring them down to Sanibel next year, so I'll need to do something for next year.

I was thinking since Brett is leaving the kayaks and Wave in Wisconsin, I'll need some boats down South for Christmas. A pair of stand up paddleboards, a pair of sit on top kayaks, and a sailboat would be stellar down here. I could use some of the boats I have for that duty. I currently have the Ulua or Tamanu that could be the sailboat. An outrigger seens a natural down here. A big cat like the double Tamanu would also be a nice boat down here--better than the Wave for sure. It's OK solo, but an underpowered pig with more than 2. I might sell the Expedition and the Ulua to finance the other boat ideas...

Thanks for the update on your new boat as well. I hope all is well with you and post some pics of your boats here for the WB folks too!

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

I'll check for soft decks and delam. Thanks for the tips. I don't understand what you mean about the mast as I've never taken a close look at a Hobie mast before but I imagine that will be clear enough as soon as I do. The vaka hull I would build would likely be a lot more like a Dierking hull, such as

Here's a couple pics of the Hobie 16 that is for sale up here. There are very few on the market as this is not exactly Hobie country:

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Hard to tell from the pictures. Do you want to use the hulls as amas? using the mast would be fine as long as it's an old one without the comptip. That's just a fiberglass upper half with a plastic luff track. Utter crap unless you hit power lines. That's why they went to them--big lawsuit... Anyhoo, the hulls aren't really ideal as amas, but that doesnt seem to affect the Newick Tremolino too badly (although there are guys trying H18 hulls and "new Moon amas" as well since the amas aren't ideal). Geting all the gear and trailer with the boat makes the acquisition worthwhile sometimes as the sails go for as much as the whole boat anyhow. Other models would be better if you can wait. There's a fella trying to get rid of some amas up your way over on the yahoo multihullboatbuilder group. you wouldn't get the gear that comes with a complete cat though. Another thing that relates to this is hull weight. H 16 amas are HEAVY for their size. Fine on a moored boat, but less cool if you intend to horse thm around. The designer of the boat you linked to, Richard Woods, strongly discouraged me from building the Strike 18 using my Hobie 18 hulls, so that might be a factor.

The Tamanu hull is sweet though. Having built two of them and sailed them as a cat for 200 or so miles doesn't make me an expert, but I do have some experience. Build it light though.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Its not hard to see why the H16 hulls are not optimum for a tri, especially a heavy one with a big sail plan. But that's not what I have in mind. How big and heavy was the vaka on the original Newick Tremolino? How big was the sail plan? In other words was a good part of the problem with the Tremolino that too much was being asked of the H16 hulls even despite their low volume and high rocker? I regret having posted the Woods Strike as an example as it gives the wrong impression. My vaka would be much closer to a Tamanu hull, if not one exactly.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Hi

I misunderstood, I thought you wanted to build a Woods tri. So you're designing your own boat? Modifying a design? Looking for a design?

Rather than starting with a H16 and wondering what you can make of it, I would think about what I want out of the design. I'm very prone to buying boats, so $1000 Hobies on the beach like the one you show are a terrible test for me. But first, about this hypothetical boat you want to build:

Does it fold or do you put it together on the beach or does it live on a mooring? This is a big deal.

How much payload?

What's your budget?

How fast a boat do you need? Every step is more money, more trouble, more setup time. Look at this:

The Drifter, for example. If you just want to zip around and have fun at ten knots, man. Can it get any simpler than that?

Regarding the Tremolino, the classic version is much loved, but kind of dated. There's a Tremolino group on Yahoo, go ask them, they're real experts. Look on Sailing Anarchy too, a guy there called Oxygen Mask has a classic Trem, he'd be a good one to ask about how it sails.

Regarding the H16, I raced them and I love them, but I'd steel my heart and say probably not. If the hulls are hard it's a fair deal. If the mast is aluminum all the way up it's a pretty good deal. But look on craigslist first, you really want parts, not a working boat. And a comptip mast or soft hulls would absolutely be a deal breaker for me.

That's a better deal for you than the Hobie, I bet, if you're just looking at modifying a beachcat. You can't make a Tremolino out of it, but I bet you can make a nice boat. Talk to Gary Dierking or Richard Woods or some other designer about a center hull and beams for something like this. Stiffer hulls, probably lighter hulls, better mast.

One thing about the pictures of the Tremolinos above. The blue jib is a roller furler from a Hobie 18. The white jib is a Hobie 16 jib with battens. You want a roller furling jib.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by K O'N

Hi

I misunderstood, I thought you wanted to build a Woods tri. So you're designing your own boat? Modifying a design? Looking for a design?

Rather than starting with a H16 and wondering what you can make of it, I would think about what I want out of the design. I'm very prone to buying boats, so $1000 Hobies on the beach like the one you show are a terrible test for me. But first, about this hypothetical boat you want to build:

Does it fold or do you put it together on the beach or does it live on a mooring? This is a big deal.

How much payload?

What's your budget?

How fast a boat do you need? Every step is more money, more trouble, more setup time. Look at this:

The Drifter, for example. If you just want to zip around and have fun at ten knots, man. Can it get any simpler than that?

Regarding the Tremolino, the classic version is much loved, but kind of dated. There's a Tremolino group on Yahoo, go ask them, they're real experts. Look on Sailing Anarchy too, a guy there called Oxygen Mask has a classic Trem, he'd be a good one to ask about how it sails.

Regarding the H16, I raced them and I love them, but I'd steel my heart and say probably not. If the hulls are hard it's a fair deal. If the mast is aluminum all the way up it's a pretty good deal. But look on craigslist first, you really want parts, not a working boat. And a comptip mast or soft hulls would absolutely be a deal breaker for me.

That's a better deal for you than the Hobie, I bet, if you're just looking at modifying a beachcat. You can't make a Tremolino out of it, but I bet you can make a nice boat. Talk to Gary Dierking or Richard Woods or some other designer about a center hull and beams for something like this. Stiffer hulls, probably lighter hulls, better mast.

One thing about the pictures of the Tremolinos above. The blue jib is a roller furler from a Hobie 18. The white jib is a Hobie 16 jib with battens. You want a roller furling jib.

Good luck, sorry for writing a book.

K O'N

K O'N, I've already talked a lot about my tri ideas on other threads and have posted about my kayak conversion on this thread, so please forgive me from not repeating the whole story, but essentially, the tri-yak will be twelve foot plywood amas on a 16 foot modified kayak hull, intended for quick launch solo daysailing. But I already know this will not be big enough. I want something Mrs JimD and I can both fit in. A minimal concept based around a simple lightweight plywood vaka such as Gary Dierking designs. Speed is not important. Likely folding crossbeams. No mooring. Payload 300# of crew and rarely more than a couple hundred more for weekend camping gear, so about 500#. I think the Hobie parts will weigh close to 350#, the vaka and crossbeams maybe 200#, plus 50 more for a small outboard motor. So dry boat weight around 600, crew and stores 500, total displacement max around 1100 pounds. Budget? Well, a thousand bucks for the Hobie and probably another $1500 for the vaka. If I buy the Hobie 16 I will have acquired two 16 foot amas, sails with spars and rigging, a couple kick up rudders, and whatever else might be useful. And that's a lot of stuff I won't have to worry about buying, building, or scrounging after I get the vaka built. So that is where I'm headed with the Hobie idea. Build the vaka and crossbeam system from scratch and have all the rest taken from the Hobie. As for Craiglist, yes there's plenty of good deals but I'm not willing to travel far and wide or pay shipping on something sight unseen. The Hobie 16 is only a half hour up the road from me.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by JimD

K O'N, I've already talked a lot about my tri ideas on other threads and have posted about my kayak conversion on this thread, so please forgive me from not repeating the whole story, but essentially, the tri-yak will be twelve foot plywood amas on a 16 foot modified kayak hull, intended for quick launch solo daysailing. But I already know this will not be big enough. I want something Mrs JimD and I can both fit in. A minimal concept based around a simple lightweight plywood vaka such as Gary Dierking designs. Speed is not important. Likely folding crossbeams. No mooring. Payload 300# of crew and rarely more than a couple hundred more for weekend camping gear, so about 500#. I think the Hobie parts will weigh close to 350#, the vaka and crossbeams maybe 200#, plus 50 more for a small outboard motor. So dry boat weight around 600, crew and stores 500, total displacement max around 1100 pounds. Budget? Well, a thousand bucks for the Hobie and probably another $1500 for the vaka. If I buy the Hobie 16 I will have acquired two 16 foot amas, sails with spars and rigging, a couple kick up rudders, and whatever else might be useful. And that's a lot of stuff I won't have to worry about buying, building, or scrounging after I get the vaka built. So that is where I'm headed with the Hobie idea. Build the vaka and crossbeam system from scratch and have all the rest taken from the Hobie. As for Craiglist, yes there's plenty of good deals but I'm not willing to travel far and wide or pay shipping on something sight unseen. The Hobie 16 is only a half hour up the road from me.

Ok, cool. Do look out for soft decks, that's not a joke. The hulls can break in half.

I'll be interested to see what kind of folding system you end up using.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by wtarzia

Kevin, what makes a Tremolino dated? Just curious. -- Wade

Compare it to something like the L7 or the Multi 23; ama volume and shape is the big thing. The new boats have very low rocker in the amas, high volume, plumb bows for the longest waterline possible. Also stiffer sticks than a beachcat mast, to fly a masthead screecher I guess. The big thing is the amas. If you put high volume modern amas on a Tremolino it would probably be a rocket ship, the main hull is quite skinny and nice, put a decent foil shape on the board and rudder and a modern square top main and, wow. I'm working myself into a tizzy. Anyway, ama shape and volume are the big things I can see.

But as I said people still really love the classic, with the Hobie 16 rig and amas and all. I drove five or so hours down to Brownsville last year to look at one. Basket case, the trailer never would have made it home and the boat was in bad shape.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

I have often thought that a Tremolino main hull might form the basis for a nice tacking outrigger. With a small enough outrigger (say 13-14') I think it would remain rightable by one person in the event of capsize. Couple that with a small, efficient, rig and focussing the whole boat towards the light weight, low drag, low power end of the spectrum and I think a nice solo weekend cruiser might result.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

I started the dry fit of my Wa'apa's main hull yesterday. I hope to have the second half dry fit and then glue up the whole thing sometime today. I took a couple days off work this week just to work on the boat. I'll likely put the bottoms on this coming weekend.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by K O'N

Compare it to something like the L7 or the Multi 23; ama volume and shape is the big thing. The new boats have very low rocker in the amas, high volume, plumb bows for the longest waterline possible. ...K O'N

---- OK, I get it. I think the hull design on the Tremolino is great, a nice comprimise between skinniness and sleep-cabin (can anyone sleep in the aft cabin or is it just for storage?).

I still have not yet processed ama rocker. Most of the rocker on the new amma shapes starts at the middle of the ama then slopes back, right? What is the function of that?

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by Clarkey

I have often thought that a Tremolino main hull might form the basis for a nice tacking outrigger. With a small enough outrigger (say 13-14') I think it would remain rightable by one person in the event of capsize. Couple that with a small, efficient, rig and focussing the whole boat towards the light weight, low drag, low power end of the spectrum and I think a nice solo weekend cruiser might result.

--- Henderson in "Single-Handed Sailing" shows a Tremolino as an example of righting a tri, though the method illustrated is the 'water bag on a pole' system, front over back. It looks a little complicated, but if you were floating out there alone, I guess there is nothing better to do. --Wade

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Nice. It 's good having only 8 sections to deal with. Why do the stem pieces flare out like that, I wonder? I've meaning to ask Gary for months but keep forgetting. More volume? Plwood lays better? -- wade

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by K O'N

Ok, cool. Do look out for soft decks, that's not a joke. The hulls can break in half.

I'll be interested to see what kind of folding system you end up using.

K O'N

If the hulls aren't sound I'll walk away. I thought of using the Hobie hulls almost on a whim when I was browsing a used boat website and came across it a couple days ago. Before that I was only considering building a new tri from scratch and may yet return to that. This is where I'm at with the kayak thingy. I 'designed' the amas, which is to say I drew them up by eye and they are what they are. I'll find out in the spring how well they work. I have templates for the panels so if I like them I could just stretch them to 18 feet, maybe deepen them a bit. Hard to say if I want to reinvent the wheel with a lot of experimentation that others have already done. And getting a little tired of spending more time building than boating:

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by wtarzia

Nice. It 's good having only 8 sections to deal with. Why do the stem pieces flare out like that, I wonder? I've meaning to ask Gary for months but keep forgetting. More volume? Plwood lays better? -- wade

I've got no clue about the flare. But, I'm glad for the stems. Once the outer parts are laminated on and shaped, I plan to drill holes in each to attach painter lines.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by JimD

If the hulls aren't sound I'll walk away. I thought of using the Hobie hulls almost on a whim when I was browsing a used boat website and came across it a couple days ago. Before that I was only considering building a new tri from scratch and may yet return to that. This is where I'm at with the kayak thingy. I 'designed' the amas, which is to say I drew them up by eye and they are what they are. I'll find out in the spring how well they work. I have templates for the panels so if I like them I could just stretch them to 18 feet, maybe deepen them a bit. Hard to say if I want to reinvent the wheel with a lot of experimentation that others have already done. And getting a little tired of spending more time building than boating:

That looks nice, I like the ama shapes. I agree about the building. Its been cold and wet here, I've been hiding inside rather than working on my boat.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Trevor, looks good! You didn't make the mistake I made, you pre-drilled the holes for the bolts onto the bulkhead sections. :-)... I also noticed that the stems are very broad. I wonder why myself. Seems like even if they are rounded they would just cut into waves less finely than a sharp entry, but who knows, maybe more flotation up front?

Thank GOD christmas is finally over... I was gonna do some serious building this weekend but we got whacked with 23" of snow... if the dam economy would improve I could move to Florida!!!! So I wound up just rounding the outer "false" stems, drilling the holes, and making some last minute improvements. I have decided to fiberglass the bottoms of the hulls with 6 oz glass. I have plenty of graphite powder, but I wonder about UV resistance since if I graphite it I won't paint it, and the hulls will be bottoms up on top of my car fairly often, I wonder if the graphite will be so opaque as to stop UV degradation, or if I'm just being paranoid about it anyway...

I have also decided to glass the chines where the bulkhead meets the sides of the hull, the bulkhead which contains the bolt holes, that is. I am a little concerned about the strength of that joint, especially since I used gorilla glue and have heard bad things about the stuff lately...However, this necessitated that I curve the chine into a 1/4 inch radius to take the glass. I am now concerned about too big a gap causing water resistance! Maybe I'll put some epoxy and filler over the glass, then sand it square again? Or am I overbuilding and being overly paranoid about water resistance? sigh... I think I might wind up with another tank, like i did with my cartopper... :-)...

I also went to the woods by me over the weekend and harvested some fallen wood. I got a piece of pine, cedar (I think), and birch. The cedar turned out to be rotted (it was a pretty old piece), and the pine is less than straight, but the birch is a really nice piece of wood. I think I will use it for the hollow crossbeams. Still not sure whether I am saving money once gas is figured in, but hey, it was a new experience... I just need to find some nice fallen cedar somewhere and it will really be worth it...

I've also made some decisions about the sails/rigging. I will use my current cartopper lugsail, but make another as well and do a schooner arrangement like the guy who built the wa'apa in ghana did. He has no rudder, just steers with the sheets and balances it by moving the leeboard forward or back. I think that I will make two leeboards however, in tandem arrangement. I will rout out a vertical channel where the bolt goes, so that if I want I can not only move the leeboards forward and back but also up and down (until I find an ideal arrangement for each of the possible configurations I have...). I never really considered a shunting boat, but it seems that with the schooner rig, shunting would be extremely simple, and the advantage would be that I could always hang out on the comfortable tramp no matter what point of sail I'm on, instead of just half the time. I told my buddy about not even bothering to build a rudder, he said I better have life insurance to sail a "rudderless ship" haha... I am a little concerned about all those minute adjustments to the tiller that are made when sailing up and down swells, and how that could be done with sails and leeboards alone, or if they even need to be made, but people swear that a rudder isn't necessary, just a steering paddle for emergency fast maneuvers...

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by peterchech

Trevor, looks good!

thanks peter! sounds like you've got a pretty good plan of attack. i hear ya on the christmas being over. i couldn't wait to get everyone out of the house so i could play in the garage. i worked on the wa'apa yesterday for a couple of hours and most of today, as well. i literally just walked in from gluing the two eight foot hull sections together. before hand, i dry fit the whole thing on my front sidewalk just to see how it looked. i'm pretty freak'n stoked!

here's a couple pics of today's progress.

i'm using PL Premium for the glue on mine. it has held up to a good hard summer of abuse on my sailing dinghy. but, i plan to glass/tape the outside bottom six inches or so and then coat a layer of epoxy over the whole outside, before painting. i'm also deviating in that i'm probably going to go with straight iakos and a foam ama. i plan to fair and waterproof the bulkheads with automotive bondo. i also plan to have flat decks with box-type hatches like on a malibu outrigger and most of jim michalak's designs (also where i got the bondo idea, during a conversation with him in oklahoma this past october).

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

I still have not yet processed ama rocker. Most of the rocker on the new amma shapes starts at the middle of the ama then slopes back, right? What is the function of that?

One of the concerns with tris is burying the bows when pushing the boat hard. If you put the maximum beam of the amas forward, as the boat heels it tends for this, and other reasons, to adopt a bow-up attitude, which helps keep its noses above the waves. But as the Shuttleworth article referenced above explains, there is a lot more to it than that. Another reason for rocker is to reduce wetted surface in light airs.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Looks great trevor I def see why you are stoked! So I guess you are building the 16' version in 1 piece, not the bolt together version? What kind of ply is that?

haha btw your use of the word stoked tells me you might be a surfer... if so, so am I, in fact the project that got me into boat building was initially building my own hollow wooden surfboard. I must have been a polynesian in a former life ... my next next project is a cedar SUP board, got a shareware template online from grainsurf...

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

i was a surfer (but not a very good one). it's been a long time, though. i moved out of florida when i was 22, i'm now a highly immature 38. a little vernacular hangs on from your youth on occasion.

i'm building the 16' in two pieces. the ply is sureply underlayment. i'd love to build a surfboard if i move back to florida some time. i have a cousin in st. augustine that shapes a bit and surfs often. i'm currently trying to talk him into building an outrigger, also. i bought him the book last year for christmas to give him a push. i also emailed him a link to this thread a few days ago.

you will definitely have to keep me updated on the SUP board. i'd really like one for summertime at the lake, when there's no wind.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

thanks jim!

i think the 16' hull is optimum for a single individual, but can sail two or maybe even three up (depending on size) in a pinch. you just have to watch your weight distribution. no cozying up towards the stern. but, that's another reason i'm building the boat. there wasn't an option on my 8' sailing dinghy. when this is done i can take my wife or a friend along. which will be nice. the amas designed for the 16' wa'apa are just under 12', so yeah, they would probably work for a tri version.

trevor

ps. as for a hobie, if i were given one or could score one very cheaply, i would take it. but, that wouldn't deter me from my current build. it would just be another water toy in the collection.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by peterchech

Have u decided on a steering arrangement yet trefor?

i will likely go with a steering oar. oars aren't too difficult to make. i made a set of oars for my dinghy last winter. probably not the best balanced, but they were cheap. i'll have to spring for an oarlock, unless i can figure out a quick lashing system instead. i used single thole pins on the dinghy, shaped from dowels. not sure how that could be applied here.

Re: The outrigger and proa thread

Originally Posted by trefor

thanks jim!

i think the 16' hull is optimum for a single individual, but can sail two or maybe even three up (depending on size) in a pinch. you just have to watch your weight distribution. no cozying up towards the stern. but, that's another reason i'm building the boat. there wasn't an option on my 8' sailing dinghy. when this is done i can take my wife or a friend along. which will be nice. the amas designed for the 16' wa'apa are just under 12', so yeah, they would probably work for a tri version.

trevor

ps. as for a hobie, if i were given one or could score one very cheaply, i would take it. but, that wouldn't deter me from my current build. it would just be another water toy in the collection.

I had the graph paper out last night and doodled up an 18 foot hull, essentially a stretched version of yours, and it looked just about perfect for two crew. Going to have a look at the Hobie this afternoon. I could always just do nothing to it and sail it as a Hobie until I figure out exactly where we want to go with our own build.