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Six Samurai - Discussion

harig07

Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:01 AM

harig07

#freeharig

Duelist

3231 posts

I agree with everything Harig said. Today I went to locals and Samurai was solid for me. I went 4-0 in the Swiss and lost in the top 4.(I know its just a local and it doesn't mean anything, I just feel like sharing an experience.)

I 2-0'd Ninja, 2-0'd Hero, 2-0'd Lightsworn, went 2-1 in a Samurai mirror. Then I lost to Agent in the top 4. I won 20 dollars in store credit, met new people, got trades etc. I think the Agent matchup is annoying, especially when you don't open strong. I think Decisive Armor is still pretty trashy.. probably going to remove it for Scrap Dragon again.

What do you guys think of Gandiva or Dress in Sams? I don't think the deck has room for tech like that.

Gandiva could be good but space is the main issue. Dress is pretty much outclassed by Magatama and Lance if you were to consider such techs and, as you said, space might be too tight.

Glad you had success with the deck. Sams have a few bad matchups (notably Dark Worlds, Atlanteans, Agents, Chaos Dragons and Inzektors) and to combat them the most important thing is the side. Game 1 you should just try to hit fast and hit hard - with DW just trying to drop Naturia and protect it feasibly should seal the game, for the others you're just gonna have to try and OTK because giving them the long game is not going to be beneficial and you will just end up losing. Fortunately, Macro is deadly against all of these decks and nothing could be easier side deck wise than swapping Dojos for Macros. I will generally 2-0 very quickly with this deck when I do win because of how fast I tend to go G1 (although you can play it by ear) and G2 when you side correctly, but the latter is the most important thing and cannot be stressed enough.

Yeah, I've considered the same factors when testing Upstarts. The card IS good in here (it's good deck thinning obviously), but I haven't enjoyed giving up my deck's protection to run them (Bottomless, Compulsory, Prisons) and I don't like Compulsory being my only out to threats. I say this because my area has more decks like Geargia/Karakuri/Agents a lot lately. All of our ideal plays and fields are not always possible.

I tested Upstarts in the main for about a week, and while the first two days were pretty damn nice, I start realizing that I wish I had left my build the way it was. I don't think Spirit is a "cute card" when it's practically making our boss monster fearful and protects him (which is difficult to get over just because of this), and we're rewarded +1 for hitting stuff. The probability of drawing something good or something shitty through Upstart is always a 50/50. The same can be said about United, but at least you can draw into two instead of one, and without giving opponents an LP gain (which isn't really a problem since this deck can easily push through over 8000).

We still have the Dojo engine and United for draw power and field presence as it is. I do think Upstarts are good in here, just probably not the best route to go.

@Lizardman: I think Gandiva will be pretty good in here. He and Kusanagi could be another step in this deck's strength.

harig07

Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:48 AM

LizardMan

Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:39 AM

LizardMan

Tomb Keeper

Duelist

117 posts

Thoughts on Fairy King Alberdich? What are your thoughts on Catastor Harig? I noticed you don't run it.

Updated build. Dropped Gaia because I didn't like how he loses to Kinetic Soldier. I wanted to fit in a Gem Knight Pearl for an easy out to Kinetic. I also dropped Photon because if they have sets, they are most likely on the defensive which means I have time to go into Mist Wurm. I only like two Compulse because while its really good, I feel like the lone Dimensional Prison struggles to find a bad matchup vs rogue decks like Glads/Gravekeeper/Hero/Machina Gadget etc. It also helps vs Dark World and Agent (with gorz/trag). I like running Mist Wurm because it makes up for running only two Compuls.

Added a 3rd Dimensional Fissure to the side because I feel like I didn't draw it enough at 2. Dropped Ally of Justice Decisive Armor because all the Agent decks run traps now, and because I feel like he isn't a versatile card. I feel like I have enough hate towards Agent. I would rather focus on my strengths as a deck. + this format is really diverse

harig07

Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:29 AM

harig07

#freeharig

Duelist

3231 posts

Thoughts on Fairy King Alberdich? What are your thoughts on Catastor Harig? I noticed you don't run it.

I felt that I didn't need space for it - when you Synchro it's pretty much always going to be a scenario in which you can summon Shi En and I found that I was rarely going into Catastor in situations outside of me Reborning a Veiler or something like that. It's good, don't get me wrong, but space is a fucking bitch and I haven't missed it thus far.

@Lizardman: No to Fairy King because Machina/Geargia/Karakura are decks or a combination of decks. That also makes Shi En and Enishi weak.

I meant that everyone in my area uses it, I understand that the meta is diverse but that diversity doesn't really show up at my locals. A box tournament the other day featured I think 75% Wind-Ups, a couple of Agents (myself included, the other guy's build wasn't very good), a couple of Madolce, a Geargia, a couple of Chaos Dragon variants and a Prophecy, so while there is a 'balance' it is definitely heavily in Wind-Ups' favour and generally I'm the one using the decks that are considered to be underplayed or subtier.

I expect Atlanteans to make a big splash (ba dum dum tsk) when people manage to complete them but until that point it's still going to be a Wind-Up orgy at my locals.

HajinShinobi

Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

LizardMan

Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:28 PM

LizardMan

Tomb Keeper

Duelist

117 posts

As the metagame evolves, I find myself thinking Fiendish Chain is a neccessary adaption to this deck. It helps a ton with the Agent matchup, while still beating Wind Up. It hits Thunder King, which is pretty huge. It helps you get through walls which Samurai don't like.

I feel like it can be a little less dead than Compulsory depending on the matchup. Shien can protect Fiendish Chain, and Samurai can explode really easily. So even if you Fiendish Chain something not optimal like Gorz, there is a good possibility you can explode next turn and get over Gorz/their big monster etc.

Compulse can be a -1 in those scenarios, which isn't that good if you don't drop enough damage to them to go for game. Chain also makes the soft locks this deck tries to create easier to pull off.

Tl;dr: try Fiendish chain, it seems like good yugioh right now. Maybe drop 1 Compulse, or a random card you don't like for it.

HajinShinobi

Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:28 PM

HajinShinobi

Just Gettin' Started

Duelist

238 posts

I've been considering Fiendish Chains myself, after talking to Shruikon about the Prophecy match up. Naturia Beast+Fiendish stops Junon. They have access to Breaker but we have Bottomless/Warning (Wisdom won't help while Beast is in play).

And yeah, I think Fiendish chaining Rai-oh is better compulsing back to the hand (when you don't have better outs to it).

Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

Nichigo

Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:30 AM

Nichigo

Underworld Duelist

Duelist

1959 posts

Yeah, but it still allows you to use your search cards. It also stops it from beating you down. Fiendish Chain helps vs Inzektor too.

I understand that. I was referring to his statement that fiendish chaining Rai oh is better than Compulsing it. In this deck, that's just not true. You search so you can special summon. As long as he can negate and you don't have some easy out like GrandMaster, then you're still in a rough spot.

LizardMan

Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:26 PM

Has anyone had a chance or bothered to test Heroic Champion Gandiva or Kusanagi in the Extra yet? I haven't been playing this deck recently (practicing a lot with Prophecy) so I'm just wondering.

I haven't tried Kusanagi because of room issues and because it needs to compete with Shockmaster. Although I did try Gandiva and it is pretty good. It is like a reverse steelswarm Roach which is good against Windup, Tour Guide, Agent, and maybe one other deck I am forgetting.

I have a question for afr now. It has been a few months since the start of the format, and the metagame has changed a little bit. I also know Samurai were popular in your country for some time. Do you think there should be any tweaks to the archtype such as tech or sidedeck choices for the metagame changes? Out of curiousity, it would be cool to know what your build looks like too.

HajinShinobi

Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:31 AM

Still playing the same build, haven't really been put into a situation where I felt the need to edit the build.

Still maining a Magatama because it's reassurance for Shi En/Enishi/Samurai. Single MST is still in making it 41 because I don't like playing without MSTs in here.

Gandiva is boss in the Dino Rabbit, Wind-Up, and Geargia matchups. Puts those nasty set ups to a halt, he definitely deserves a spot in the Extra. I threw Kusanagi in as well to try him out, but there was never instance where I needed him over a Shock Master.

harig07

Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:14 AM

harig07

#freeharig

Duelist

3231 posts

These are the three builds that I'm experimenting with. The first is obviously pretty much bog standard and is what I'd prefer to run but given the current format I think that I have to at least test Macro variants of the deck. With Dimensional Fissure I don't feel as if you have to sacrifice much of the speed that the standard build offers as you can pretty much just use it and make a push (an advantage over Macro) but obviously creates conflicts with some key cards in the standard variant (Nat Beast, Reborn and Enishi) and isn't as good a card as Macro, who also thwarts Wind-Ups and Inzektors. While Macro is the better card I feel as if it needs a slower build to accommodate for it, as it's not really a card that is designed for aggressive play. For this reason I've gone with the more defensive structure on the last build, as the game plan is literally summon Shi En with backrow and leave it at that - you'll rarely extend and make hard pushes like you would with the other two variants.

Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

harig07

Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:33 AM

harig07

#freeharig

Duelist

3231 posts

I've been testing the Macro build so far and, well, it's okay I guess. If you're playing against something where Macro helps you (such as Mermails) then it's a godsend, when it's against other match-ups (such as Rabbit) it sucks. Same principle is pretty much doubled when it comes to drawing multiples of it.

Mirror Force has been a godsend in that build though, might incorporate it into the others over Compulsory.

LizardMan

Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:37 AM

Still playing the same build, haven't really been put into a situation where I felt the need to edit the build.

Still maining a Magatama because it's reassurance for Shi En/Enishi/Samurai. Single MST is still in making it 41 because I don't like playing without MSTs in here.

Gandiva is boss in the Dino Rabbit, Wind-Up, and Geargia matchups. Puts those nasty set ups to a halt, he definitely deserves a spot in the Extra. I threw Kusanagi in as well to try him out, but there was never instance where I needed him over a Shock Master.

Looks solid. If you want to use 40 cards, you could drop a Prison. How does your sidedeck look?

These are the three builds that I'm experimenting with. The first is obviously pretty much bog standard and is what I'd prefer to run but given the current format I think that I have to at least test Macro variants of the deck. With Dimensional Fissure I don't feel as if you have to sacrifice much of the speed that the standard build offers as you can pretty much just use it and make a push (an advantage over Macro) but obviously creates conflicts with some key cards in the standard variant (Nat Beast, Reborn and Enishi) and isn't as good a card as Macro, who also thwarts Wind-Ups and Inzektors. While Macro is the better card I feel as if it needs a slower build to accommodate for it, as it's not really a card that is designed for aggressive play. For this reason I've gone with the more defensive structure on the last build, as the game plan is literally summon Shi En with backrow and leave it at that - you'll rarely extend and make hard pushes like you would with the other two variants.

Gandiva is good for those of you who inquired about it.

Those builds look awesome. I decided to run Fiendish Chain and Gandiva too. I dropped a Compuls and a Kageki to fit Fiendish. I also dropped Mist Wurm to fit Gandiva in.

What do you usually sidedeck Spirit Reaper in for?

I've been testing the Macro build so far and, well, it's okay I guess. If you're playing against something where Macro helps you (such as Mermails) then it's a godsend, when it's against other match-ups (such as Rabbit) it sucks. Same principle is pretty much doubled when it comes to drawing multiples of it.

Mirror Force has been a godsend in that build though, might incorporate it into the others over Compulsory.

Mirror Force is definitly very underrated. I would probably try it out myself.

Veilers are sided now because more people picked up Inzektors after YCS Seattle (surprise surprise). Kycoo is sided because there is a moderate amount of folks playing Lightsworn, and some Chaos Dragons. Needed some graveyard disruption aside from D-Fissure. Fissure is there for the same reason, but it also helps so much against Inzektors and Mermails. Irou is pretty obvious, hits over set monsters for free (so screw Geargiarmor/Ryko/etc).

Definitely need the MSTs, I'm kind of iffy about the lone Soul Taker though, it's random right now. System down hits basically any combination of Geargia decks that include additional Machines (Karakuri/Machina). And Rivalry is Rivalry.

It's kind of difficult to put together a really solid side because the meta here is pretty diverse. Mermails are on the rise out here now, Inzektor bandwagon is picking up, people play Wind-Ups, Chaos Dragons still running around. People play Heroes and Samurai, Karakuri, Geargia, Lightsworn, Gravekeepers, Blackwings, Ninja variations, Dragunity (popular out here for some reason), Darkworld, and Agents.

15 cards ain't covering all of that (or I'm not thinking things through well enough, maybe), so I only try to create a side (with what I have) against anything that seriously threatens this deck.

@Harig: I went ahead and tested D-Fissure in the main (it really is my first time playing the build in a G1 state like this). It's different (no Enishi), but I like how it totally disrupts everything that needs a graveyard. If Mermails and Inzektors get larger over here, I'm going to consider playing this build over our usual Dojo build(s).

EDIT: @Lizardman: I'd probably take out the Prisons and add a 3rd Compulsory to make it 40. Honestly, the deck hasn't been hurt at 41 though.

Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:06 PM

LizardMan

Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:32 PM

LizardMan

Tomb Keeper

Duelist

117 posts

Presumably for Rabbit and the mirror, I haven't tested it yet I just put it in there because I didn't know what else to side

Makes sense I guess. Not sure how much it would help vs Dino Rabbit, since eventually they will draw a way to get rid of it, and you are depending on getting combo pieces to swing back. It is a good matchup for Samurai already, but Reaper will make your game 2 better.

@ Hajin Sounds and looks good.

Why don't you guys main MST? If you go second you sort of need it to ensure you can drop your hand.

MST is usually considered a personal preference card since the deck has considerable negation, ways to compensate for overextending, and 1-2 Grandmaster. If you win the die roll, it can be dead a lot of the time. If you lose the die roll, MST becomes important. MST isn't always dead though. Shi En can't cover 2-3 cards in their backrow if they get chained together, so MST is still solid.

It comes to a situation where it is basically "Do I want more backrow, or cards to increase the consistency of the deck? Or do I want to run MST to make sure I go off if I lose the die roll?"

I usually side 2-3 MSTs in game 2, almost every time. Over Dojo and a Kageki, then I take out a Compulse or Chain depending on matchup for other side cards. Grandmaster is another card you could drop if you need more room to side stuff in.

HajinShinobi

Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:47 AM

LizardMan

Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:59 PM

LizardMan

Tomb Keeper

Duelist

117 posts

Considering maining a Magatama for matchups like Agents, Inzektor, and Mermail. Thoughts?

I know Hand of the Six Samurai is not good enough to maindeck, promotes simplified gamestates which is bad for this deck, and is a bit conditional, although I thought Double Edged Sword Technique + Hand of the Six Samurai was cute.

harig07

Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:27 AM

harig07

#freeharig

Duelist

3231 posts

I've been testing Hand in the Macro build and I'm dropping it and a Magatama for 2 MST. Searchable way to kill Gorz/Reaper is nice and the build is a lot slower so it isn't as dead most of the time but it's still quite underwhelming

Build v2, looking at Vanity's in the side cause I think it's worth testing. If it doesn't work out I'll manoeuvre Magatama into the side instead

helghast101

Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:28 AM

helghast101

Plain Old Duelist

Duelist

49 posts

My current build I have been having a lot of success with. Abyss, gandiva, and corn have won many a games. I haven't missed any synchros really. And I rarely make blade armor so I added tech. Allows quick shien plays backed up by a solid counter vs my opponent. Actually thinking about drooping a kagemusha for the 3rd mst.

LizardMan

Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:37 PM

LizardMan

Tomb Keeper

Duelist

117 posts

I definitly considered going double MST. I think its a good idea and a blowout during certain matchups. You can still set MSTs as bluffs if you go first. Or thin out large backrows that Shi En can't beat by himself. MST is also huge vs Dark World, or even Prophecy. Since you can kill their field spells.

If I were to do that, I would probably run it just like Harig's build because that is how I would probably run the deck. Only thing is, I would probably try fitting in Book of Moon. Since imo Book of Moon is really good in here. This is a deck where you could always captilize on Book of Moon, in a similar way you can with Fiendish Chain. Because you have so much explosive power.

Book of Moon gets even better with MSTs because you can clear their backrow, and make sure your Book of Moon is never a -1. Space is really tight, so its kind of hard to fit everything.

HajinShinobi

Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:43 PM

HajinShinobi

Just Gettin' Started

Duelist

238 posts

Macro in the side now since it hits Inzektors (it's showing up even more than before now, someone I know even dropped Mermails for the deck..) harder than D-Fissure does, while still covering the same match-ups that're grave reliant. Leeching the Light is in now since Agents are also hitting the populariy list out here. I feel like I should maybe try to fit in Veilers in the side for Inzektors for G2 and G3

Any suggestions on what to remove from the side for them or for the side in general are welcome.

JustBeKrillin

Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:31 AM

JustBeKrillin

Ground Duelist

BANHAMMERED

4207 posts

What's the reasoning to not running torrential tribute? I mean i understand shien and monster spam bht yoh wont always have those ideal.hands and ideal fields. You also have to consider his games current state, every deck can quickly push for an 8k board and end things by turn 3 at latest. I feel like vs a majority of decks tt is pretty essential and probably the best trap in this game.

HajinShinobi

Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:26 PM

HajinShinobi

Just Gettin' Started

Duelist

238 posts

You don't play Torrential Tribute in this deck for the same reasons you don't play Dark Hole in this deck. Unlike other decks that possibly recover late game from TT, Six Samurai cannot since it doesn't have a late game. You're suppose to maintain your own board presence while attempting to control/soft lock your opponents.

JustBeKrillin

Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:05 PM

JustBeKrillin

Ground Duelist

BANHAMMERED

4207 posts

i played six samurai back in the day and TT and Dark hole I always ran. Seems randoms have seriously fallen ill to this retarded idea of not running a staple in an already underwhelming deck. Same goes for TT, staples. Must run. No questions asked.

uNFrozen

Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:33 PM

uNFrozen

Tomb Keeper

Duelist

109 posts

i played six samurai back in the day and TT and Dark hole I always ran. Seems randoms have seriously fallen ill to this retarded idea of not running a staple in an already underwhelming deck. Same goes for TT, staples. Must run. No questions asked.

This is just me, but maybe that "no questions asked" perspective that stuff needs to be ran because it's a staple and solely because of that is a tad bit more retarded than not running Hole in Sams. I'm not even saying you're wrong (I honestly don't play nearly enough with Sams to have an opinion on the specific subject of TT / Hole), but "It's a staple, no questions asked" isn't really a good argument and leads to zero deck evolution, which is kind of what we're going for here.

HajinShinobi

Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:54 PM

HajinShinobi

Just Gettin' Started

Duelist

238 posts

i played six samurai back in the day and TT and Dark hole I always ran. Seems randoms have seriously fallen ill to this retarded idea of not running a staple in an already underwhelming deck. Same goes for TT, staples. Must run. No questions asked.

People like afr, Nichigo, Harig and others have explained more than once why cards like Dark Hole and Torrential Tribute are not essential to Six Samurai. Neither card does anything for the deck. If your board gets blown up, you already lost.