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I was absent for some time... and now i see that nothing changed... I mean how many times were these things like the identities of Ikuko and Tohya discussed already? It really seems time for R07 to publish new information.

Anyway...

I still think that Tohya=Battler and Ikuko=Yasuda, because of the last scene in Twilight o.t.g.W. in the orphange.
If you look at the characters involved you get the impression, that Ange replaces Yukari, Battler replaces Tohya and Beatrice replaces Ikuko.

But maybe that is just my "Headcanon" in which I wish for an ending that is at least a little bit of a happy ending...
as it seems, ambiguous endings are "mainstream" now. (Mass Effect 3, anyone?)

Toya=Battler is strongly supported by Umineko. We could say it's part of the canon solution.

This reminded me. Ryukishi mentions that Touya is Battler in an interview when he's talking to Keiya. He says this after they mention that he tried to trick people into thinking the person Ikuko picked up in her car was Ange.

Apparently in Japan a lot of people fell for the trick. Over here at animesuki though most people didn't, and didn't even know there was a trick..

Quote:

R When you uploaded your playmemo of EP8 I immediatly read it. When I came to the part where you wrote, that the character who had been saved by Ikuko in her car was Ange, I thought „Yes, yes, I got him!“ *laugh*. I actually thought while writing that passage „Will KEIYA fall for that trap?“.

K Yes, I really fell for it *laugh*. The scene right before it, made it easy to get the idea that it’s Ange.

R Yes, I mixed the time order up to create that mislead. There are almost no people who noticed immediately.

K If you read it casually, every player would think it was Ange.

R I think so too. And that’s why your impression wasn’t wrong.

K And on top of it, there’s the fact that later on you learn that „it’s actually Battler!“.

R Rather than a mystery, this was a stylistic device used in novels. Or what would you say?

But EVERYONE is surprised by the new Battler. No one is really any better informed than Yasu, really. And the whole time, everyone keeps talking about how Battler hasn't changed a bit in personality.

Now come on. Compare a 12 year old and an 18 year old. You're telling me there's NO personality differences there? At all? You're telling me someone doesn't change at all during puberty?

No they aren't..? They're surprised that he's so BIG, but even that is probably just a "we haven't seen you in so long" thing, since Rudolf was said to be tall-ish as well, if I recall correctly. They weren't really surprised by any huge changes in his general person.

And that's exactly what I said. I'm not saying he's EXACTLY the same person as when he was 12, that would be foolish, but I'm not gonna jump off the proverbial cliff and say that contrary to every bit of characterization Ryu provided, Battler was actually moody and had a tendency to pinch his aunts butts.. Well, I suppose you could, but ... well, I'm not strong enough to still enjoy a plot that would then enter some borderline James Joyce level abstraction.

Also, having just reread a bit of the chapters about Ikuko, Tohya=Battler and Ikuko=stranger seemed ... fairly apparent. I mean, it doesn't seem to be pulling any weird narrative punches, at all. Tohya's headaches spring up when he tries to remember stuff, when he first thinks about arguin over mysteries, and when Ikuko kinda randomly brings up the Rokkenjima incident it throbs into overdrive.

In my opinion, the only thing to doubt is WHEN exactly Ikuko figured out who Battler was, since the passage of time in the chapters concerning their home life is the vaguest thing ever.

Well, honestly, I just really like random hermit "I talk to corpses on the street, and take them home if they happen to be alive" lady. And the thought of her being Yasu just never crossed my mind, even. It was also said that her family was rather well known in the area, her siblings pretty accomplished. Ehhh, I just think the room for all this doubt is so small, I'd rather just disregard it.

It's as GreyZone says, though ... would be nice to get some development on Ryu's next project. Or wait for that "Forgery of the Purple Logic" fan work to be translated, amirite?!

No they aren't..? They're surprised that he's so BIG, but even that is probably just a "we haven't seen you in so long" thing, since Rudolf was said to be tall-ish as well, if I recall correctly. They weren't really surprised by any huge changes in his general person.

Physical traits are not mental traits. And since Battler allegedly had issues with being short as a kid, it'd be easy to spin his sudden tallness and broad body as being an idealization.

Physical traits are not mental traits. And since Battler allegedly had issues with being short as a kid, it'd be easy to spin his sudden tallness and broad body as being an idealization.

Yes, perhaps. But physical traits would be even EASIER for other people to confirm than his mental traits, all you'd need is a photo. You could ask any of his classmates or neighbors to see if they can confirm "Yeah that dude was tall." or "Man we cried out 'Gojira' whenever he got out of his desk from class".

Regardless, his body isn't really what was being talked about. Though if a forgery appeared with a gratuitous shirtless Battler scene...

Well about Battler's "real" personality, I wrote something some time ago, so I'll just repost it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

OK... I try to give my way of thinking into this:

EP1-4 PieceBattler is a fictional construct of Yasu in her forgeries, that despicts Battler as he was 6 years before the incident, as Yasu had him in her memories. He is mentally 12 years old in a body of an 18 years old. You could say he is a "reversed Detective Conan". For some reason the fact that he often reads mysteries is completly disregarded in his reasoning about the closed rooms. What i never understood was why he "sucked at english", but had his favorite phrase in english (at least earlier).

EP5-6 PieceBattler is more shown like he in in reality, but the point of view we see from him is at least partly a lie.

EP1-5 MetaBattler seems to me to have been copied from EP1 PieceBattler. Regarding him the absence of his knowledge about mysteries is even more suspicious. In EP5 he wondered why he was so smart suddenly, but the truth is, that he was really like that.

EP5???TP SorcererBattler was suddenly more similar to the EP5 PieceBattler and looked like a new person to me, compared to EP1-4 MetaBattler. All of a sudden he was able to do reasoning in a way we didn't really see before. He always had a clear counter move available. Also where did he suddenly got to know about "golden truth"? No one told him that rule, but he somehow knew it. Until now there was never a situation where Battler has known more than we did, but now he threw this golden truth in our faces and even Lambda was surprised and Bern didn't know anything about it at all.
You could say our connection to Battler was severed from the moment he said "and then i knew...".

EP6 SorcererBattler seemed very cold and out of character, as if he was trying to copy Kinzo's behaviour. Well... until he suddenly became reversed-Conan-Battler again when Erika started to whine that she couldn't do anything. Now he was a total softy again. I honestly had the impression that he had more personality switching in EP6 than ShKanon in the whole series did.... This is one of the reasons i believe that genius Battler is true.

I have no idea what the funeral scene in the beginning of EP7 was.

But i am very sure that EP7???TP-EP8 Battler was a completly new Battler, that did not appear before at all. I think this one was just a construct of PrimeAnge's imagination. While from EP1-6 he was created by Tohya, Ikuko ( = / and ) PrimeYasu.

So because I am convinced that EP8 Battler is only Ange's imagination, everything that happened in Rokkenjima and Battler hiding it is not strange, because... well an imagination cannot go and tell the world anything. And we do know that Tohya once tried to contact Ange, but decided against it in the last second, because he was too afraid about his brain injury.

Michael Jordan is indeed no more or less likely to be encountered by any random individual who happens to encounter any other random individual. If I were to say "I'm going to go outside and meet a completely random person today," then the odds that would happen are pretty close to 100% unless I just happen to live in such an isolated environment that there aren't any people to encounter. However, if I say "I'm going to go outside and meet Michael Jordan today," the odds that would happen are generally pretty low. That's true whether it's Michael Jordan or my friend Bob Smith.

If I have a preexisting relationship or circumstance that makes a situation more likely, however, it's more believable because it's more mathematically probable. If I were to say "I'm going to go outside and meet Bob Smith today," and Bob Smith is my neighbor who is often in his yard when I leave the house in the morning, the chance of meeting Bob is vastly higher.

The problem is all of this has no reason to be applied in the case we're discussing. Why? Because this is a story about Rokkenjima, and you claim that in a story about Rokkenjima it is more likely that it'll be described the situation of two completely random persons with absolutely no relation to it encountering, rather than an encounter of at least one person related to it.

If Battler or Yasu didn't exist, or were not part of the story your reasoning could work, but since they exist and they are part of the story, their encounter with a random person isn't unlikely at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

Actually you're ignoring one vastly more probable outcome, which is that Ikuko=Random and Tohya=Random.

Which requires to come up with a complete asspull never hinted or mentioned anywhere. Which in my book brings the probability of it being true to an almost zero. Nowhere it is said nor mentioned that Eva knew Ikuko. neither there is an explanation as to why they would know each other and be in such a confidential relationship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

Also bear in mind that Tohya-not-Battler and Tohya-is-Battler are equally moldable in their amnesia, given what they originally remember.

No. There is no hint whatsoever that Battler's memories are artificially moldable, that without considering the fact that there is a difference from not remembering something and remembering it wrong. Tohya created a new personality, not a new past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

You seem unable to grasp the difference between a premise and an orphaned plot contrivance.

What if it was planned from the beginning that Battler was still alive?
In that case it would be one of the premises of the story, even if it wasn't clearly stated. But since this is clearly meant to be a plot twist, that's a given.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

No, it's literally a quality of Umineko itself, since Ryukishi wrote things in a way that calls everything into suspicion in a story where he told us to suspect what we're told. The fact that you take some things at face value only means you're willing to make certain assumptions about what we're being told. It doesn't put you in a different situation from anyone else. At best, you're not overthinking things; at worst, you're not thinking enough.

I don't think you still have grasped that what I'm arguing is that there is a big difference between distrusting what it is written, and coming up with absolutely never mentioned facts. Which is ironic because I often see you claiming that X or Y is impossible because etc.

Ryuukishi certaintly created the situation you described, but he also stated that you should be able to understand the truth using the hints he left to us. and that's where you should draw the line.

Else I can state something like: "There was a secret Russian facility hidden in Rokkenjima. Kinzo was actually a spy for the Russians, the incident is actually the result of an experiment gone wrong."

There's absolutely no point in that. You're not justified in coming up with never mentioned facts just because you don't know which is true or false.
If it's catbox, you'll either find a dead cat or an alive cat. You won't find a frog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

It is when your audience doesn't accept your assumption. In this case it's your assumption that things are "simply as presented" in Umineko which I don't accept.

I was absent for some time... and now i see that nothing changed... I mean how many times were these things like the identities of Ikuko and Tohya discussed already? It really seems time for R07 to publish new information.

I wouldn't think so. It would kinda ruin the entire 'open-ending' premise if he did that. That kinda was its whole point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

Apparently in Japan a lot of people fell for the trick. Over here at animesuki though most people didn't, and didn't even know there was a trick...

I don't know about other people, but I totally fell for it...

But then I said.... Wait! What if it is the masked guy who was with her at the book signing? And then I felt very proud of myself.

I guess you could say that, if you want to believe Toya isn't Battler so badly.

Well, as a matter of fact, you're right, he didn't, though I don't know how 'Yes, it was Battler' would follow up in the discussion. In the end, that's the whole point. Although I'm not a fan of Toya=Random and Ikuko=Yasu theories, I do enjoy the fact that so many different stories it is still possible to come up with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

What if it was planned from the beginning that Battler was still alive? In that case it would be one of the premises of the story, even if it wasn't clearly stated. But since this is clearly meant to be a plot twist, that's a given.

I think there were some slight implies in EP6. Not in the slightest 'hints' to lead to that conclusion, just preparing the soil for what would follow up.

Quote:

I don't think you still have grasped that what I'm arguing is that there is a big difference between distrusting what it is written, and coming up with absolutely never mentioned facts. Which is ironic because I often see you claiming that X or Y is impossible because etc.

Ryuukishi certaintly created the situation you described, but he also stated that you should be able to understand the truth using the hints he left to us. and that's where you should draw the line.

Else I can state something like: "There was a secret Russian facility hidden in Rokkenjima. Kinzo was actually a spy for the Russians, the incident is actually the result of an experiment gone wrong."

There's absolutely no point in that. You're not justified in coming up with never mentioned facts just because you don't know which is true or false.
If it's catbox, you'll either find a dead cat or an alive cat. You won't find a frog.

I pretty much agree with this. I think it says somewhere in Umineko that 'there is an infinite amount of possibilities within a limited ring'. That's the beauty of it. Even if it's not about understanding the truth, but just theorizing, even creating joke theories like the Geogre-cookie eater, all of it is in the money as long as it doesn't turn the cat into a frog.

That's one of the reasons I hate the Ikuko=Yasu theory. There's just no adequate hint to pass it as acceptable.

That's one of the reasons I hate the Ikuko=Yasu theory. There's just no adequate hint to pass it as acceptable.

The fact that "Ikuko" means 19 and "many childs" is the only adequate hint I can see in the theory, but in my opinion it is not enough to reach a conclusion regarding her identity being Yasu.

I value more thematic narrative hints rather than crude mathematical facts. To believe in the Yasu=Ikuko I should see something that thematically and narratively suggests that, something in the way she acts or talks that would suggest she is Yasu.

I do not believe that Ryuukishi would simply throw an Ikuko and the expect us to conclude that she must be Yasu.

At any rate what I mean to say is that at least this theory has some basis to it, albeit weak. It is still better than "Ikuko was Eva's confidante" that Renall suggested earlier.

The fact that "Ikuko" means 19 and "many childs" is the only adequate hint I can see in the theory, but in my opinion it is not enough to reach a conclusion regarding her identity being Yasu.

Ryukishi does like word-play with the name meanings (an LOT), it's there in all his works, but just as you say, it doesn't mean Yasu is Ikuko. It could even be beause Ikuko sort of contiunes her story or whatnot.

Quote:

I value more thematic narrative hints rather than crude mathematical facts. To believe in the Yasu=Ikuko I should see something that thematically and narratively suggests that, something in the way she acts or talks that would suggest she is Yasu.

That's exactly how I feel. If there was at least one point in the narrative to suggest that, I would consider it, but other than the name and some remote similarities between the two (most of which are do-it-yourself-with-some-imagination), people who support it don't have anything else to show. Frankly, it's no different than one of the goats' theory.

Looking up something I already know won't help you pull your own head out of your ass. That's something only you can do.

Seriously. Look it up. It's even mentioned in the Wikipedia article you posted a few days ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

I guess you could say that, if you want to believe Toya isn't Battler so badly.

Well, as a matter of fact, you're right, he didn't, though I don't know how 'Yes, it was Battler' would follow up in the discussion. In the end, that's the whole point. Although I'm not a fan of Toya=Random and Ikuko=Yasu theories, I do enjoy the fact that so many different stories it is still possible to come up with.

Well, yes, I think RK07's reaction could be considered natural whether Keiya was right or whether he was wrong; I just don't see it as evidence either way. Regardless, I'm cooling towards Touya=random for various other reasons. Although you wouldn't know it by the debate between me and Jan-Poo (I mostly just dislike his attitude at this point).

I really think people often jump to conclusions when interpreting that interview with Keiya, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I value more thematic narrative hints rather than crude mathematical facts. To believe in the Yasu=Ikuko I should see something that thematically and narratively suggests that, something in the way she acts or talks that would suggest she is Yasu.

There's an interview were Ryuukishi07 said "Yes, it was Battler". All the hints point to "Yes, it was Battler". There's not a single line that questions or negates the "Yes, it was Battler"

What in the world is so hard to catch about the "Yes, it was freaking Battler" confirmed by the word of god?

Ikuko is regarded as an oddity. For all we know, she's a real witch that tought funny to try and spread Rokkenjima's cat box. Ikuko=Yasu is less likely that Yasu stumbling around as an amnesiac -because, you know, she was in the Rokkenjima big boom and she couldn't have so swiftly gone and buy a house, identity and all that jazz in so little time-.

Yasu wouldn't have escaped of the Big Boom even if she could. Because that's all her character is about and is been hinted for the enterity of the series: that she was all for dying with them if nobody solved the epitaph. And if they solved it... if they solved it she would do nothing and let them do as they pleased. In case of Battler, George or maybe even Jessica solving it, she'd let her funiture die and take the identity for the winner... and let them do as they pleased with her. Disturbing contents included.

BTE, there's a difference between assuptions made on shaky fundations and freaking castles in the air.
And there's difference between something unlikely but possible inside the game and bullshit from an asspull.

Ikuko is regarded as an oddity. For all we know, she's a real witch that tought funny to try and spread Rokkenjima's cat box. Ikuko=Yasu is less likely that Yasu stumbling around as an amnesiac -because, you know, she was in the Rokkenjima big boom and she couldn't have so swiftly gone and buy a house, identity and all that jazz in so little time-.

"So little time" was the two years that she had the gold where we have no idea what she was doing. She didn't think either of her relationships with George or Jessica could work in the long term, and we know that a mysterious incident would have occurred even if Battler hadn't returned to the island. I don't think it's a huge stretch to think she was contemplating vanishing from the island long before the incident actually occurred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera

Yasu wouldn't have escaped of the Big Boom even if she could. Because that's all her character is about and is been hinted for the enterity of the series: that she was all for dying with them if nobody solved the epitaph.

She may have considered actually blowing up the island, in the way that Kyrie considered murdering Asumu. We'll never know if she really did consider it, or whether she would have gone through with it, but we can at least conclude from Battler's behavior toward Beatrice and the epilogue of EP8 that she didn't actually kill anyone herself during the murder game.

So yes, she felt guilty enough to commit suicide over the deaths that occurred, but that's not quite the same thing as being determined to blow everyone up along with herself. In the former case, she might choose not to commit suicide if she had the opportunity to save somebody else. For instance, what if Battler was responsible for the murder game escalating into actual murders, and he tried to commit suicide out of guilt himself after learning the truth from Yasu?

__________________

"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

Yasu wouldn't have escaped of the Big Boom even if she could. Because that's all her character is about and is been hinted for the enterity of the series: that she was all for dying with them if nobody solved the epitaph.

Well, not that Umineko cares much about realism but a real person might think she's ready to do something and long to do it and when faced with said something backpedal as fast as he/she can especially when said something involves dying. So PrimeYasu can honestly believe she will kill herself/will let herself die and yet, when faced with the whole thing just lose her guts and do the opposite.

"So little time" was the two years that she had the gold where we have no idea what she was doing. She didn't think either of her relationships with George or Jessica could work in the long term, and we know that a mysterious incident would have occurred even if Battler hadn't returned to the island. I don't think it's a huge stretch to think she was contemplating vanishing from the island long before the incident actually occurred.

Yasu tried with George and even took the ring. A relationship with Jessica is the only one she considered impossible. So she tried to take George's proposal and wait for him, the incident was sparked by Battler returning and Yasu's furniture crashing violently. 'Beatrice' was the powerful witch that wouldn't just step back and let Shanon marry if her man returned. Shanon wasn't letting George go, even with all her insecurities about being an uncultured maid. There was fire.

What I'm trying to say is that Shanon was ready to let George take her away and marry him. I believe the great incident that was going to happen anyway was she giving the siblings the opportunity to solve the epitaph and get the Headship. If she gave George the gold, there was a possibility of hurting the moron's dreams about him building his perfect castle by himself. And Yasu didn't want to hurt anyone's dreams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

She may have considered actually blowing up the island, in the way that Kyrie considered murdering Asumu. We'll never know if she really did consider it, or whether she would have gone through with it, but we can at least conclude from Battler's behavior toward Beatrice and the epilogue of EP8 that she didn't actually kill anyone herself during the murder game.

So yes, she felt guilty enough to commit suicide over the deaths that occurred, but that's not quite the same thing as being determined to blow everyone up along with herself. In the former case, she might choose not to commit suicide if she had the opportunity to save somebody else. For instance, what if Battler was responsible for the murder game escalating into actual murders, and he tried to commit suicide out of guilt himself after learning the truth from Yasu?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, not that Umineko cares much about realism but a real person might think she's ready to do something and long to do it and when faced with said something backpedal as fast as he/she can especially when said something involves dying. So PrimeYasu can honestly believe she will kill herself/will let herself die and yet, when faced with the whole thing just lose her guts and do the opposite.

There is something. But maybe Yasu didn't intend to kill anyone to begin with, then she fell under a lot of stress with Battler's return and the rebellion of her funiture. So, while Yasu was intending to do some weird ceremony to choose the next head, Battler arrived and awakened the dormant witch and all her doubts. Then she screwed up somewhere (I believe giving the greedy siblings those shotguns and more important the information about the bomb) and when shit hit the fan (someone got money-madness and started murdering everyone) she felt like it was all her fault.

On a side note about the X-Sibling-that-found-gold as killer theory: Why take the burden of killing individually everyone if you could just run away and wait for the bomb to go off without telling them about Kuwadorian? I think some spontaneous blast that nobody expected is better and safer than the possibility of someone making a call or finding a way to comunicate about some mad serial killer. Surely one misterious vanishing or two would make less scandal that 6+ people being brutally murdered...

I don't think you still have grasped that what I'm arguing is that there is a big difference between distrusting what it is written, and coming up with absolutely never mentioned facts. Which is ironic because I often see you claiming that X or Y is impossible because etc.

I grasp the difference; I just spend most of my time on this board playing Devil's Advocate, which I've told you atleast twice now. :P

Also, there's ample evidence to suggest that Ikuko is faking quite a lot of information. Lying to an amnesiac man isn't a stretch, especially when Amnesia Doesn't Work That Way.

Then again, it's the same reasoning people used to deny Shkanon mirite?

Quote:

Ryuukishi certaintly created the situation you described, but he also stated that you should be able to understand the truth using the hints he left to us. and that's where you should draw the line.

Too bad he's completely wrong, huh?

Quote:

Else I can state something like: "There was a secret Russian facility hidden in Rokkenjima. Kinzo was actually a spy for the Russians, the incident is actually the result of an experiment gone wrong."

There's absolutely no point in that. You're not justified in coming up with never mentioned facts just because you don't know which is true or false.
If it's catbox, you'll either find a dead cat or an alive cat. You won't find a frog.

Holy shit, if this were a relevant or accurate metaphor for what anyone in the thread was doing, you'd totally have a point! Too bad.

Quote:

What if it was planned from the beginning that Battler was still alive? In that case it would be one of the premises of the story, even if it wasn't clearly stated. But since this is clearly meant to be a plot twist, that's a given.

No, that's not what a Premise is. The premise is how you introduce the reader to the scenario. "Battler fights a witch he doesn't believe exists" is a premise. "Everyone is being murdered in a suspiciously stereotypical murder mystery" is a premise.

"Battler is alive" is a plot twist right at the epilogue.

Quote:

There's an interview were Ryuukishi07 said "Yes, it was Battler". All the hints point to "Yes, it was Battler". There's not a single line that questions or negates the "Yes, it was Battler"

What in the world is so hard to catch about the "Yes, it was freaking Battler" confirmed by the word of god?

Wow, you sound really confident, though last time I checked, you didn't write Umineko....

Well, I'll agree with you as to the fact that I'm not too confident on what Ryukishi said, but I'm not going to dismiss off the bat either. Devil's proof and whatnot.

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Aside from the fact that Ryukishi has lied in interviews?

Example?

P.S: A bit irrelevant but, I just checked out Chapter4 of KnownNoMore, and.... Oh - My - God! That guy's pulling so much stuff out of his ass I wonder how it's still intact! I mean, anyone else here heard of what he calls the 'Rose Symbolism'? I seriously want to gouge out my ears....