And let's not forget that the French ruled over much of the Rhineland, including the Mosel region, at the beginning of the 19th century. This was an important period, especially the Napoleonic Code. Under French rule, they also secularized the vineyards, as in Burgundy. Only after the Thirty Years' War, 1648, at the Peace of Westphalia, did Alsace and Lorraine become a part of France. Of course, Germany didn't exist as a nation state. France also had a long-running rivalry with the Habsburg.

Lars Carlberg wrote:And let's not forget that the French ruled over much of the Rhineland, including the Mosel region, at the beginning of the 19th century. This was an important period, especially the Napoleonic Code. Under French rule, they also secularized the vineyards, as in Burgundy. Only after the Thirty Years' War, 1648, at the Peace of Westphalia, did Alsace and Lorraine become a part of France. Of course, Germany didn't exist as a nation state. France also had a long-running rivalry with the Habsburg.

Thanks, Lars, for that reminder. Indeed I have seen a festung at Traben-Trarbach which was first extended and then finally destroyed by the French in the 18th century. The whole of this wine-growing Rhineland region is mixed up in the ebb and flow of political and cultural relations between the French and the German speaking peoples.

My rather specious argument for including Alsatian Riesling in this thread, namely that it was briefly part of Germany during my lifetime, also applies to Austria which was incorporated into the Reich from 1938 to 1945. There is still some argument whether this incorporation was forced, like in Alsace, or willing, though few Austrians are nowadays willing to countenance the latter. (This reminds me of the remark from Billy Wilder - "The Austrians have completed the feat of turning Beethoven into an Austrian, and Hitler into a German." )

To return to less controversial matters, my real reason for wanting to include Alsace Riesling was that I had a bottle of a potentially good one waiting in the fridge. I have now drink it and will post a TN shortly.

Alsace Riesling Gueberschwihr – 2004 – Domaine Zind Humbrecht – Indice 1 – Alc.13.5% - (c.€25 for current vintages). (Gueberswihr is a village name not a Grand Cru or a lieu-dit, though the price is higher than some producers’ GCs).Colour was a quite deep yellow. The nose was fragrant showing aromas of white flowers with spice hints. On the off-dry palate, body was full/medium with attractive still quite primary flowery white fruit sprinkled with spice and a slightly sweet undertow leading to a burnished note of demerara sugar on the quite long finish. I would have appreciated more lively acidity and the presence of more mineral flavours. Nevertheless, the overall effect was of a certain splendour and opulence which called for a rich sauce with the sea bass rather than the rather simple preparation which we were having; as often with Riesling and Chenin, the wine showed its most complex best with the Tourangeau goat cheeses which followed. I guess that there is still improvement potential here but very good right now; 16/20.

I’ll see if I can find a “trocken” from the Pfalz later in the month, which is the nearest important German Riesling region to Alsace.

RANT on sweetwards drift of "dry". ZH have labelled this “Indice 1” which in their terminology means “bone dry”. Anyone expecting that would have had a bad surprise; I guess that the wine approached 9g/l RS, the upper limit of the German definition of “trocken”, which in my book is scarcely dry. Next time Olivier Humbrecht comes to a tasting here, I will try to remember to tackle him about it; he has a prodigious memory for the sugar and acid levels of his wines.

TIm - based on your demerera sugar and spice comments, I wonder whether there is some botrytis that has evolved to that burnished note. It would also convey a greater sense of sweetness, or at least that's what botrytis often does to my palate. A 13.5% alcohol wine should be pretty darned dry. 2004 was not a blockbuster ripeness vintage.

There behind the glass lies a real blade of grass. Be careful as you pass. Move along. Move along.

David M. Bueker wrote:TIm - based on your demerera sugar and spice comments, I wonder whether there is some botrytis that has evolved to that burnished note. It would also convey a greater sense of sweetness, or at least that's what botrytis often does to my palate. A 13.5% alcohol wine should be pretty darned dry. 2004 was not a blockbuster ripeness vintage.

David, from my limited recall of 2004 vintage conditions as well as from Indice 1, I was certainly expecting more lively fruit and acidity. Maybe you are correct about a touch of botrytis though I haven't read that it was a feature of the vintage. I find that high alcohol also can often give an impression of sweetness but not, I think, those burnished notes.

We opened a bottle of 2012 Wittmann Riesling Trocken today after work. It is the first bottled 2012 Riesling I have tasted (and the only 2012 bottled so far by Wittmann, who did so to protect 'placements' in Scandanavian monopole markets I'm told.)

Anyway, nice stuff for the price which is south of 10€. It includes a portion of Morstein vorlese. I loved the flavor intensity and 2012 acidity.

David,Wittmann is still exported by Wildman and sons, so he should theoretically be available to markets where Egon Müller is represented. To elaborate: very clean, no botrytis, white peach, slightly floral, somewhat salty in mineral and vibrant. Almost sluggable after a day of pruning. 12,5% alc.

Bob, Believe it or not, it is pretty much assumed that Riesling for sale in the Rheinhessen or the Pfalz is dry. It doesn’t get any easier.

Clint Hall wrote:Bill, do you men Reisling IN or FROM the Rhenhessen/Pfalz? Or both?

Hi Clint,

I guess I mean both. Someone might call me out and say that there is still a lot of sweet wine made in these regions (together they make about half of the total quantity of wine in Germany), but those sweet wines don't come from top producers (the ones that are interesting to export markets) and often aren't even Riesling. Much more often it is the cheap jug wine that is sweet.

Clint Hall wrote:Bill, do you men Reisling IN or FROM the Rhenhessen/Pfalz? Or both?

Hi Clint,

I guess I mean both. Someone might call me out and say that there is still a lot of sweet wine made in these regions (together they make about half of the total quantity of wine in Germany), but those sweet wines don't come from top producers (the ones that are interesting to export markets) and often aren't even Riesling. Much more often it is the cheap jug wine that is sweet.

Cheers,Bill

The winemaker at Karl Schaefer, Jan Gross, said to me the other day that their sweet Rieslings (with really cool retro labels) have sold quite well in Germany last year. They have moderate RS too. Of course, the estate has always been a specialist for dry Pfalz Rieslings, but he says that they'll have more sweet wines from the 2012 vintage.

Bob Parsons Alberta wrote:Bill, do you have a list of reliable weinguts from these two areas?

Bob, if we were going to limit the conversation exclusively to RIESLING, then I don’t think that you’d get much argument that the following are the top Weingüter in these two regions -but it often comes down to stylistic preferences. Like anywhere else, there is 'Safe' winemaking and adventurous winemaking.

Clint Hall wrote:Bill, do you men Reisling IN or FROM the Rhenhessen/Pfalz? Or both?

Hi Clint,

I guess I mean both. Someone might call me out and say that there is still a lot of sweet wine made in these regions (together they make about half of the total quantity of wine in Germany), but those sweet wines don't come from top producers (the ones that are interesting to export markets) and often aren't even Riesling. Much more often it is the cheap jug wine that is sweet.

Cheers,Bill

And as a general rule what Bill says in the portion I underlined above is true for the Rheinhessen and Pfals. That being said, near the top of his list is Gunderloch that still sends quite a lot of sweet wine to export. There's also Minges, who while a maker of some lovely, underappreciated dry wines, also makes lovely, underappreciated sweet wines that come to the USA and other export markets. Strub from the Rheinhessen list is in no way a dry wine specialist. In fact totally the opposite in terms of what is exported (though I did have a lovely 2011 Niersteiner Pettenthal Spatlese a few weeks ago that was in a feinherb mold though not labeled that way). Pfeffingen (Pfalz) is another producer where I have had lovely sweet as well as dry wines - and their Scheurebe is very nice! Messmer, Catoir and others still make sweet wines. Do they make more dry than sweet - sure they do, but that doesn't mean they have consigned sweet wine to the dustbin of history - at least not yet.

There behind the glass lies a real blade of grass. Be careful as you pass. Move along. Move along.

Clint Hall wrote:Bill, do you men Reisling IN or FROM the Rhenhessen/Pfalz? Or both?

Hi Clint,

I guess I mean both. Someone might call me out and say that there is still a lot of sweet wine made in these regions (together they make about half of the total quantity of wine in Germany), but those sweet wines don't come from top producers (the ones that are interesting to export markets) and often aren't even Riesling. Much more often it is the cheap jug wine that is sweet.

Cheers,Bill

The winemaker at Karl Schaefer, Jan Gross, said to me the other day that their sweet Rieslings (with really cool retro labels) have sold quite well in Germany last year. They have moderate RS too. Of course, the estate has always been a specialist for dry Pfalz Rieslings, but he says that they'll have more sweet wines from the 2012 vintage.

Hi Lars,

He told me the same at the VDP tasting last year where I got to taste one with RS (yes, cool label). It surprised me, but it wasn't bad. But like you say, the estate stands firmly behind its image as a producer of dry Riesling. Time will tell if that route (more sweet wines) will prove successful or not. One or two might work, but I don't see more than that having much of a market.

2008 von Hovel Riesling Kabinett ScharzhofbergerBought from lastbottle.com for $15, and it's a total steal. Vibrannt lime and cassis leaf elements just dominate this very youthful wine. It's only moderately sweet in palate impression because of the vibrant, balanced acidity. Some minerally depths show up with air, but this is still in a bit of a baby stage, and some age will bring it out more. Really delicious, and I could have easily drank the whole bottle at one sitting (if I had not gotten a cat in my lap - can't disturb the kitty).

There behind the glass lies a real blade of grass. Be careful as you pass. Move along. Move along.

Lars Carlberg wrote:The winemaker at Karl Schaefer, Jan Gross, said to me the other day that their sweet Rieslings (with really cool retro labels) have sold quite well in Germany last year. They have moderate RS too. Of course, the estate has always been a specialist for dry Pfalz Rieslings, but he says that they'll have more sweet wines from the 2012 vintage.

Hi Lars,

He told me the same at the VDP tasting last year where I got to taste one with RS (yes, cool label). It surprised me, but it wasn't bad. But like you say, the estate stands firmly behind its image as a producer of dry Riesling. Time will tell if that route (more sweet wines) will prove successful or not. One or two might work, but I don't see more than that having much of a market.

My first try of a W. Schaefer wine and what a revelation it was. If all of his portfolio was as good as this, I would buy on a regular basis. Very impressive, particularly with the sublime weight of this wine and the fact it was not just "another syruppy" auslese look-alike.

David Lole wrote:My first try of a W. Schaefer wine and what a revelation it was. If all of his portfolio was as good as this, I would buy on a regular basis.

I'd say his portfolio's usually better. I was not thrilled by his 2007s, and found them a little on the soft side and lacking the cut and raciness his wines normally show. They're very good wines, but my usual expectation for Schaefer is nothing short of jawdropping. More often than not, the wines reach those expectations at EVERY pradikat level.

A few nice German Rieslings in the last couple of days...

2009 Willi Schaefer Graacher Domprobst Riesling Spätlese #5 I didn't have a chance to try this on release, though I was blown away by how good the AP #10 Spätlese was (which was still firing on all cylinders when I checked into another bottle a few months ago). This seems like a step up in terms of ripeness; it's more intense and the fruit does feel richer, but at the same time there's a tremendous acid backbone here that keeps it very precise and focused. Each sip starts out with incredibly pure fruit up front and seems to turn more savoury and stony on the back end, with a finish that just keeps resonating. Amazing wine.

1995 Carl Schmitt-Wagner Longuicher Maximiner Herrenberg Riesling AusleseLast of my bottles, but this wine is drinking so well right now that I have no regrets about opening it. This is old style Auslese with moderate sweetness and a lightness that makes it a wonderful partner with food, rather than being packed with fruit and sweetness. In fact, this comes across almost halbtrocken and has a lightness that I've struggled to find in a lot of modern Kabinett. Savoury, smoky and stony notes around a core of mature orchard fruits tinged with burnished notes, and so seamless. I wish more Auslese were like this.

2010 Schäfer-Fröhlich Bockenauer Felseneck Riesling Spätlese Another excellent bottle. Powerful; ripe white fruit, florality and minerality all coming together in a package that's got plenty of sweetness but also tremendous acidity keeping it perfectly balanced. It's incredibly primary now, but wonderful to drink though I expect this will age beautifully.

2001 Dönnhoff Niederhäuser Hermannshöhle Riesling Auslese Nothing new to add to my earlier praise for this wine. It remains a stunning wine, one of the most compelling and consistently thrilling Rieslings I've ever had with an amazing depth and purity of fruit, minerality, gentle honeyed and floral notes and now showing just some signs of developing creamy and more savoury notes. The balance is impeccable, and the length is beyond words - each sip just resonates for minutes.