I have a very good friend. We met like 10 years ago and when I met her she was already depressed. I am talking clinical depressed, she had a diagnose. I know how and when it started, because she told me the story behind her depression. I'd rather not tell her whole story because I think it is her private thing.
Point is, she had a good reason for being depressed.

But people get over things, no matter what it is, people get over things. Two friends and I urged her to go get a therapy for about a year, before she went to a hospital to get some proper teatment. She had tried normal therapy before and it had not worked so she had give up on the idea of getting better at that time. That was 6 years ago.
She stayed in the hospital for 3 months. And while her insomnia didn't get better, through medication and different therapies at the hospital she got a lot better. She lightened up, she was able to laugh honestly and she was a lot more active.
She said that she feels that she is getting better and when the 3 months came to an end she told everyone, including the clinic personal that she does not feel ready to leave, yet. But in Germany, once you are away from work for more than 3 months you do not get your salary anymore, and what you get from the health insurance is not enough to keep your apartment running etc. So she had to leave and was told to keep seeing a therapist.
She is until this day still in therapy, but she is back to her old self. Most of the time she is so depressed that she can't do anything. She can't sleep and the therapy and all the medication in the world does not help at all.

She is not playing this for attention, she wants to get rid of that, but by now every therapist has told her that therapy is not working on her. And the fact that it didn't work for more than 10 years now is proof of that.

Now I wonder if she is probably at a point by now, where live without depression is not possible anymore? Probably her brain chemistry changed over the years, changed in a way to cope and keep living with the depression and the low amount of sleep.
I know she is trying to get a grip on it, but probably it is too late by now. Probably she will stay depressed until she dies? I mean how can that be? 10 years of therapies, different medications, talking to friends, hospitalisation, and still that depressed? It is probably not about the cause anymore. I am pretty sure of that actually, because she never speaks of the cause anymore although she knows that I and the other two friends are still open to listen.

So the question is really:
Is it possible that at some point the depression can't go away anymore?

Was the cause something extremely traumatic? Because maybe she cannot get over it, despite the years?

In my personal experience (no therapy, no diagnosis, no meds), it comes and goes. I may be rid of it for a while, but I know it'll come back. I've learnt to deal with it (whatever it is) and I think it's never going away completely, because it's a brain chemistry thing and I've no idea what triggers it. It also becomes a learned reaction to stressful situations - emotional numbness, withdrawing, apathy (or something else in her case).

I've always found change to be a good remedy, though. Also, surrounding yourself with extroverted, light-hearted people who genuinely love life (that's why I fell in love with Rio).

Wow.... well I know depression can really suck from personal experience.. but my depression was more from substance abuse than anything else.. once I stopped drinking for a year.. I snapped out of it and got on with my life.

But your friend.. sounds like she's in a very bad place.. hope somthing can be done to help her get out of it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire

If she was feeling better in the hospital, and when she came out, got worse, then it appears there is a situational correlation to something, (maybe even just "stress" of living on her own), on the outside. Is it possible she hates her job, or needs an environmental change ? , or would do better in a structured (like a group home), OR even a house with people who also suffer from the same thing, so they can support each other ? That's what did it for me. Brains don't change their chemistry, but she may have developed some "reflexive" reactions. I would pursue the business of why she was better in the structured environment of the hospital, and how and why that changed. There is a clue there, maybe.

Insufferable know-it-all.
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche

(19-12-2012 05:51 AM)fstratzero Wrote: Supposing that this person is chronically depressed they will need the full gambit of psychiatric and psychological help.

The medication to help alleviate the majority of the depression, and cognitive behavioral therapy to remove some of the thinking patterns people accumulate with their depression.

What, you didn't even read the first post? Everything you said was tried already...

Has she tried any alternative therapy? I heard all sorts of stories about depression and ayahuasca or even LSD? MDMA's primary use was for treating depression.

I know one girl that uses alcohol to relieve her depression... That is good in short runs, but in the long run, it messes up her therapy, as alcohol and antidepressives do not go well together, alcohol cancels the effect of the medicine. But since her therapy does not work, maybe alcohol would?

Of course, after my suggestions, she might be an addict, so there is a new problem at hand, plus the old one might not be solved.

Hmmm... This is a situation to think about. I will get back to you.

I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.-Hunter S. Thompson

Filox: I am going to look your suggestions up and tell her about it, maybe she wants to try.

BuckyBall: I am not sure what got her better there. Probably the fact that she had the structure and not much time to get depressed because there was therapy after therapy every day.

Vera: Yes, there were two highly traumatic things that happened to her and I do understand that it never goes away (talking from experience myself). But you learn to cope at very least, and you find ways to cheer yourself up and you find people to talk to and you find other vents at some point. Other vents then depression, and after 10+ years of therapy one would think that there are by now some tools she knows. And yes, she does have some specific triggers that are simply unavoidable in dayly live, other times it just starts seemingly out of nothing and she will just start crying.

I had many issues like this, I had extremely violent and suicidal thoughts for myself and others, occasionally I would act upon my violent desires, although now I am fully cured. The best thing you can do is be curious as to find about the causes of her depression and childhood experience; why they are the way they are. As well as encourage her to stay/go to a good talk therapist- you are but a stranger in the street trying to attempt heart surgery if you think you can 'cure' someone's depression. And understand, that cure is impossible- granted I am more peaceful, happy, productive now that I have been through therapy, but I am nowhere near as good as I could of been without my childhood trauma and terrible parents.

Expecting a psychopath or someone depressed to be 'cured' is like expecting a man with a missing arm to grow back an arm. It's not going to happen, but you can prevent further damage.

Filox: I am going to look your suggestions up and tell her about it, maybe she wants to try.

BuckyBall: I am not sure what got her better there. Probably the fact that she had the structure and not much time to get depressed because there was therapy after therapy every day.

Vera: Yes, there were two highly traumatic things that happened to her and I do understand that it never goes away (talking from experience myself). But you learn to cope at very least, and you find ways to cheer yourself up and you find people to talk to and you find other vents at some point. Other vents then depression, and after 10+ years of therapy one would think that there are by now some tools she knows. And yes, she does have some specific triggers that are simply unavoidable in dayly live, other times it just starts seemingly out of nothing and she will just start crying.

It's hard to say what went wrong then. I've learned a lot by talking to other people and asking them how they cope with things, how they deal with the world as it is, and how they get through it. Hearing many answers lets you test them out and see what strategy works out for the better.

I find it strange that somebody would meet with a psychologist and psychiatrist somehow leaving no better. A lot of people in the States do not know how to force those people to use their degrees, by asking questions, and asking for solutions. Perhaps they should consider finding a support group?

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-

(19-12-2012 08:05 AM)FZUMedia Wrote: I had many issues like this, I had extremely violent and suicidal thoughts for myself and others, occasionally I would act upon my violent desires, although now I am fully cured. The best thing you can do is be curious as to find about the causes of her depression and childhood experience; why they are the way they are. As well as encourage her to stay/go to a good talk therapist- you are but a stranger in the street trying to attempt heart surgery if you think you can 'cure' someone's depression. And understand, that cure is impossible- granted I am more peaceful, happy, productive now that I have been through therapy, but I am nowhere near as good as I could of been without my childhood trauma and terrible parents.

Expecting a psychopath or someone depressed to be 'cured' is like expecting a man with a missing arm to grow back an arm. It's not going to happen, but you can prevent further damage.

You make some good points but
1. I am no strager to her, she is a real life friend of 10 years. She told me all about herself and about all trauma. I probably know her better than her own parents do. And I can't do more than listen to her and tell her to keep trying new medicines, and keep going to therapy and so on. I do understand that I can't cure her but I also understand her feeling of being hopeless by now, noone was able to help her in such a long time.
2. You can't seriously put a psychopath and a depressed person on the same page. I used to be deeply clinical depressed and I am not anymore. My traumata and all the other issues have not vanished, but I learnt to cope and to live mostly without depression. And when I findmyself sliding into the "dark" I know tools to snap myself out of it. There is a way out for depressed people, even if it is difficult. There is no way out for psychopaths afaik.

fstratzero: We aren't in the states. She is in Germany (I moved away). Germany has a very advanced health system. Either she had bad luck and never met a therapist or psychiatrist who understood her deep enough, or she, like many other people, just doesn't get anything out of therapy (me included). I am just really stunned that no medicine works or ever did.