If friends of mine would cheat on their problems, it's their problem, not mine. I think it would be ridiculous to judge friends on the fact if their faithful to their partners or not. It's their business and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It's not me who they cheated on. It's not like they raped a thousand innocent little children, killed them and had them for breakfast.

I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was obviously on. I used to fly myself and I said, "There's one terrible pilot."
- George W. Bush -

I just wanted to reply to this because i feel very much the same as you describe here, and I'm in a similar position with my roommate...she cheated on her boyfriend, who she claims to love, multiple times before they ended their relationship for the umpteenth timenot due to the cheating, they were both just very unhappy together, despite the fact that she's already changing her mind and wanting to get back together with him.

I feel the exact same way as you regarding values and identity, but one of the problematic things i've found with this is that values at some point will always conflict; consistency is not a human trait. Seems to me you're experiencing a similar crisis. but for me the value of not being judgmental overrules in my situation.

I don't mean judgmental in the sense that i can't say if it's 'good' or 'bad'; of course i think it's bad! i absolutely ABHOR cheating, i've been cheated on before and it's very degrading on both ends. i know where i stand on the issue for myself, and so does my roommate because our own relationship is based off of honesty. but the fact remains that i have very different life experiences than my friend, and that things aren't so black and white when it comes to relationships of any kind.

frankly, even though such experiences don't excuse her behaviour, it certainly makes it harder for me to label her "bad" or lose respect for her. she grew up in a very broken home with very strict gender roles...she actually really thinks that if she is not married by 25 with kids by 27, she is a failure. Those words are hers, not mine. Her boyfriend-thing is the best thing to a stable, healthy partner that she's ever had. at the same time, he is VERY young and just not right for her. he's a nice enough guy, but they aren't right for each other. But she REALLY doesn't think she's going to find anything better, and i always tell her "not with those deadlines you're not", but we all know how hard it is to change human behaviour of our own, much less that of others.

So while she's unhappy with the relationship, she actually thinks she loves him and literally thinks that this relationship is the best chance she has at leading a successful life. in her mind, all she needs to do is wait for him to grow up be the person she wants him to be and meanwhile she has to do what she can to keep herself satisfied (without his knowing, of course).

And well....how do i know i wouldn't do the same thing were I in her position? i don't, i can only see from mine. So while she knows i think it's reprehensible, it's hard for me to be much more than disappointed in her.

At the same time yes, my values are my identity and so having to deal with this on such an intimate level eats at me and I still need to do what i need to do to keep myself stable. she knows my complete stance on the issue; I've told her that once the lease is up i cannot live with her anymore as this kind of behaviour upsets me greatly, that i cannot deal with it on this intimate of a level...and she completely understands. to me this says quite a lot about our personal relationship, really.

I also do not mean to imply that there's anything wrong with how you are handling your own situation, i wanted to respond to the issues and values/self-identity and explain the "judgment" thing, from my perspective.

I don't feel it my place to judge people based on their private lives. My point is.. he may not be a good lover, but love the love of friends are two very different kinds. I have friends that have god-awful love lives tangled in a sticky mess... and yet, they're beautiful, wonderful friends. Not eveyone is good with monogamous relationships. Unfortunate, but I can't judge them on it one way or the other. All it says is we'd not be compatible dates.

With that said.. I'd express my dislike of it.. but as a friend, I can't turn my back on people when they make mistakes and do something wrong.. that's the time I ought to be there for them moreso than normal.

Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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I think it’s about more than wanting friends who have similar values, or thinking about how it affects me to have a friend with values dissimilar to my own. If you stay friends with someone who is doing something you personally find reprehensible, you’re inadvertently affirming that what they’re doing isn’t so bad. You can say the words ‘I don’t respect your actions’, but if you’re still willing to hang out with them- it’s implying something about the extent to which you mean what you say. It’s like people who disparage Walmart for being a monster, yet still shop there because it’s cheaper; in the end, the consumer vote means more and has more effect than the ill opinions voiced. There’s some famous quote- something like ‘all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing’. I’m all about having a ‘live and let live’ attitude with friends- unless the ‘living’ in question is causing someone else harm. Sometimes turning a blind eye is contributing to the harm.

But, with that being said, it’s seldom black and white and there are underlying reasons for the cheating that aren’t always clear. I try to understand where people are coming from and why- for them- it seems justifiable to cheat rather than end a relationship. This is something all people are prone to doing in their own way: throwing shit in the pool, and then convincing themselves the ends justify the means. I know it’s something I’ve done myself (not with cheating per se, but general ‘throwing shit in the pool’ behavior). And sometimes all a person needs is having it pointed out to them that they are convincing themselves something that isn’t true so that they can get something they want without paying the full price for it. I suspect we all need to be called on that sometimes.

In the end I think that’s what kind of separates the people I believe are worth my time from the people who aren’t. I won’t turn my back on someone for being human and flawed and therefore liable to stray in sound judgment; but I’m really only interested in investing my time in people who ultimately want to know when their judgment is unfairly causing others to suffer and want to take responsibility for it (even if it isn't causing me harm).

So, in answer to the question: I would try my best to understand why they believe the behavior is justified. If it really seems like they just don't care or don't want the responsibility (and for a good friend, it would take *a lot* for me to be convinced this is the case) then I would probably lose interest in being their friend. Either way, I wouldn’t turn a blind eye.

[QUOTE=Jennifer;1234060]I don't see how you can be in a committed relationship and be impartial. There will simply be some friendships you will invest more in, and others less. If you are impartial, you are connected to no one.

I'm impartial in that I act towards everyone the same way. I don't randomly choose a group of people to be good to. If you are part of my group of friends it's because we share similarities and you deserve special treatment because we enjoy mutual reciprocity. One sided it's charity, two sided it's friendship. But I'm impartial and know why and when and until when someone is my friend.

Do you think he got that? Or did he just slough it off?

I know I would have "heard what you meant" if you had said that to me, that's a pretty hard statement even if it seems low-key on the surface.

I "heard" it. I just tend to be very supportive of him and always there to hear him out...so this time he had this to confess I played my usual part...but I should have made him heard a more louder message. I'm not know for my subtlety when I reaaally wanna be heard, so he might not have picked up on the emphasis I want to put on that.

... i have to disappear for awhile without answering the rest right now, but thank you for all the things you shared in the other posts, it offers even more insight on what you're going through and the situation. It takes awhile from the outside to ask a lot of questions and get a firm grasp on the situation. I also appreciate you sharing so much about such a vulnerable topic.

Well even if I hated him a lot I wouldn't want to expose the details of his life on here. I'm keeping it vague on purpose. To protect him. Not as friend, as someone I treat justly like I would anyone. That's the upside of my impartiality if you catch my drift.

Originally Posted by Orobas

Are you saying that you judge the other person's values as part of your friendship? Like their values and yours have to match up? I know what I find to be good and bad in my actions, but I guess I do not trust those decisions enough to externalize them to others except in a scenario where another is being put into a state of pain.

Yes, and his partner is. Not to sound like Gandhi but those people are the people my inflexible values are there for in the first place. I know the girl only a few months now and I've know the guy for 10 years...but that's context. It could have been her that I knew for 10 years and him just a couple of months ago...it wouldn't change my values or the way I choose to interact with people.

Originally Posted by Saint Kat

If friends of mine would cheat on their problems, it's their problem, not mine. I think it would be ridiculous to judge friends on the fact if their faithful to their partners or not. It's their business and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It's not me who they cheated on. It's not like they raped a thousand innocent little children, killed them and had them for breakfast.

Nothing I hate more than that mentality. I don't give a fuck if you treat me like royalty and others like shit. In fact I'm know for "spitting on the face" of people who kiss my ass after certain episodes where they shit all over someone's head.

And no he didn't rape little children. But it's a matter of principle and trust. I liar isn't a criminal and I wouldn't want to be friends with a liar. Not saying he is one...just saying the logic is the same I would apply to that. Being a liar doesn't make you rape little children, but it still makes you unworthy in some ways.

Originally Posted by stringstheory

And well....how do i know i wouldn't do the same thing were I in her position? i don't, i can only see from mine. So while she knows i think it's reprehensible, it's hard for me to be much more than disappointed in her.

The same you know you are not a child rapist under any circumstances. Guess what, we all have problems. He has his, and I know them better than most. And I have mine.

Your friend had a weird way of showing he loved him. You use all the context to put it in perspective. There comes a point where lines have to be drawn. God knows I'm far from the coldest person on this world...

Originally Posted by kyuuei

I don't feel it my place to judge people based on their private lives. My point is.. he may not be a good lover, but love the love of friends are two very different kinds. I have friends that have god-awful love lives tangled in a sticky mess... and yet, they're beautiful, wonderful friends. Not eveyone is good with monogamous relationships. Unfortunate, but I can't judge them on it one way or the other. All it says is we'd not be compatible dates.

With that said.. I'd express my dislike of it.. but as a friend, I can't turn my back on people when they make mistakes and do something wrong.. that's the time I ought to be there for them moreso than normal.

All this non-judgy speech is making my head spin. Do you care about anything in life? Judging is my way of caring. If i didn't care I'd be "friends" with anyone. Not judging means I don't care. "Go ahead, screw people over my friend, I'll be there for you no matter what you do." Where the fuck would be the beauty in friendship if that were the case?

I never said I'd turn my back on him. I know I won't, that's not how i roll. I would never be a dick to him just to see him suffer. But how can I FEEL he is a friend, someone I respect, if I don't?

And I very strongly disagree with the bolded part. A good person is a good person everywhere. It's this sickening idea that we have to choose sides and discriminate between people "just because" that made me who I am today. I'm strongly opposed to that. I won't turn a blind eye to cruelty or bad things no matter who does it. Everyone has their friends. If everyone excused their own friends for bad deeds, soon enough no would could be accountable for any crime.

I value forgiveness and I'm not one to hold grudges. But I hold EVERYONE accountable for their own actions. Friends included.

I can't bring itself to not still like the guy very much, but my values are there to protect others and to make sure bad things do happen on my watch. I won't meddle into his or his partner's affairs. But I will show my disgust and/or disappointment in his actions.

Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate

I think it’s about more than wanting friends who have similar values, or thinking about how it affects me to have a friend with values dissimilar to my own. If you stay friends with someone who is doing something you personally find reprehensible, you’re inadvertently affirming that what they’re doing isn’t so bad. You can say the words ‘I don’t respect your actions’, but if you’re still willing to hang out with them- it’s implying something about the extent to which you mean what you say. It’s like people who disparage Walmart for being a monster, yet still shop there because it’s cheaper; in the end, the consumer vote means more and has more effect than the ill opinions voiced. There’s some famous quote- something like ‘all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing’. I’m all about having a ‘live and let live’ attitude with friends- unless the ‘living’ in question is causing someone else harm. Sometimes turning a blind eye is contributing to the harm.

Please read this, people. McFate gets it.

Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate

So, in answer to the question: I would try my best to understand why they believe the behavior is justified.

He doesn't. But he does say he's tried making it clear they were taking things where they went. The partner adores him though and he knows she's way more attached.

Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate

If it really seems like they just don't care or don't want the responsibility (and for a good friend, it would take *a lot* for me to be convinced this is the case) then I would probably lose interest in being their friend. Either way, I wouldn’t turn a blind eye.

So would you base your "decision" on whether or not he had the balls to tell her?

My friend doesn't want his partner to grow bitter and stop believing in love...and he said he doesn't want to destroy what is beautiful about his partner. His partner is still young.

For all my in-your-face honesty...and since I'm more worried about his partner dealing with this with as less pain as possible...for one of the first times in my life I actually think it might be good he doesn't tell his partner since they are going to break up anyway soon....my friend is moving and so is his partner and they both kinda know the context and timing aren't right...

All the more reason for me to be pissed at my friend. I told him to break this up ages ago. And he knew he had to.

The same you know you are not a child rapist under any circumstances. Guess what, we all have problems. He has his, and I know them better than most. And I have mine.

no offense but you'll have to do a lot more in order to convince me those are anywhere near on the same level of despicable. and i dunno, i tend to think most human behaviour stems from socialization (note: not a personal choice), so going with that theory i have to say that i no idea how i would've turned out were i to have different life experiences. agree to disagree i suppose?

Your friend had a weird way of showing he loved him. You use all the context to put it in perspective. There comes a point where lines have to be drawn. God knows I'm far from the coldest person on this world...

TBH i don't think she really loves him...she just thinks she does because he's the first guy who hasn't treated her like absolute shit.

and yes, i do use all the context to put it in perspective. the perspective doesn't excuse her behaviour in my eyes, but it makes it more understandable. after a lot of thinking and evaluating my values i found it really doesn't do much more than upset me enough to not want to live with my best friend anymore..i already see that as a pretty harsh condemnation myself.

but i've drawn my line, it just doesn't extend to ending our friendship because my Te can't find a logical reason to do so when she's done a lot for me and has never done anything close to hurting me, even if my Fi knows her actions are disgraceful. it's not that i don't care about anything; quite the opposite, two of my strongly held values include loyalty to people who have proven to be true friends and to do my best to understand where people are coming from. Again, values are going to eventually conflict, nothing new, it's about prioritizing.

Please read this, people. McFate gets it.

Of course it says something about the extent to which i do not respect her actions. Again, values have varying levels of priority so it makes sense that someone could disapprove of the actions of a friend while still having enough respect for them to remain friends. I don't see anything wrong with this, things simply aren't this black and white. What my friend has done is bad in my eyes, but not bad enough to cancel out all the good times we've had and all the bad times in which she has literally been my saviour, especially considering she didn't do anything to me personally.

So would you base your "decision" on whether or not he had the balls to tell her?

My friend doesn't want his partner to grow bitter and stop believing in love...and he said he doesn't want to destroy what is beautiful about his partner. His partner is still young.

That’s a hard question, it doesn’t really have a one-size-fits-all answer. I mean, if I stop to consider what I’d do with my own friends- each of my friends is so different, with different strengths and weaknesses in their judgment- that I’d react differently to any one of them telling me something like this. I wouldn’t dissolve a 10 year friendship over it if it seemed really out of character for the person. It generally takes a few such incidents to make me lose interest in staying friends with someone.

The only thing I can say I’d probably do in every case is express the extent to which I was disappointed (trying not to sound holier-than-thou, but just really pointing out what I wrote above about it being selfish to damage someone else’s security and trust for the sake of taking something that doesn’t belong to them) and I’d probably focus on helping the friend figure out which path would create the least amount of consequent damage (which you wrote has already occurred to you).

And regarding whether or not it’d be a good idea to tell her- again, I don’t think there’s any one-size-fits-all answer here either. I guess I’d try to get an idea of how likely it could be that this girl might find out from another source. If there’s any feasible grapevine at all there, it might be a good idea to tell her because the damage could be a lot worse in the end if she hears it from another source. But if there isn’t a grapevine- I really don’t know.

I can tell you that if it were me, I’d want to know- this was true for me even when I was younger. And the best possible way someone could break the news to me is to completely own they’d messed up, own that it was selfish and that they’d taken advantage of my trust- and then to let me get as angry as I needed to get, all without defending what they did to me. That’s probably what would feel like the most respectful way to clean it up.

Hopefully some other women here can give an opinion about whether or not they’d want to know. I really don't know where most women stand with that.

Hopefully some other women here can give an opinion about whether or not they’d want to know. I really don't know where most women stand with that.

I'd certainly want to know...so i could either end the relationship myself (most likely) or decide what steps are appropriate to fix the problem (far less likely, but possible depending on their commitment towards fixing the problem and/or the situation).

and I would most CERTAINLY want to know if i were planning on moving/moving in with the person, since i see this as a step towards a different level of commitment and i would absolutely not want to make this step with someone if i knew he/she weren't 100% devoted to me if that is the arrangement upon which we agreed.

I think it’s about more than wanting friends who have similar values, or thinking about how it affects me to have a friend with values dissimilar to my own. If you stay friends with someone who is doing something you personally find reprehensible, you’re inadvertently affirming that what they’re doing isn’t so bad. You can say the words ‘I don’t respect your actions’, but if you’re still willing to hang out with them- it’s implying something about the extent to which you mean what you say. It’s like people who disparage Walmart for being a monster, yet still shop there because it’s cheaper; in the end, the consumer vote means more and has more effect than the ill opinions voiced. There’s some famous quote- something like ‘all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing’. I’m all about having a ‘live and let live’ attitude with friends- unless the ‘living’ in question is causing someone else harm. Sometimes turning a blind eye is contributing to the harm.

But, with that being said, it’s seldom black and white and there are underlying reasons for the cheating that aren’t always clear. I try to understand where people are coming from and why- for them- it seems justifiable to cheat rather than end a relationship. This is something all people are prone to doing in their own way: throwing shit in the pool, and then convincing themselves the ends justify the means. I know it’s something I’ve done myself (not with cheating per se, but general ‘throwing shit in the pool’ behavior). And sometimes all a person needs is having it pointed out to them that they are convincing themselves something that isn’t true so that they can get something they want without paying the full price for it. I suspect we all need to be called on that sometimes.

In the end I think that’s what kind of separates the people I believe are worth my time from the people who aren’t. I won’t turn my back on someone for being human and flawed and therefore liable to stray in sound judgment; but I’m really only interested in investing my time in people who ultimately want to know when their judgment is unfairly causing others to suffer and want to take responsibility for it (even if it isn't causing me harm).

So, in answer to the question: I would try my best to understand why they believe the behavior is justified. If it really seems like they just don't care or don't want the responsibility (and for a good friend, it would take *a lot* for me to be convinced this is the case) then I would probably lose interest in being their friend. Either way, I wouldn’t turn a blind eye.

I agree with this. I tried to add to it, and ended up concluding that as often is the case, Z Buck said it better than I could have!