POLL: Is The IAF Mirage 2000 Upgrade Too Expensive?

This is something that has been debated by the IAF and the MoD, which have considered all options before making a decision to upgrade 51 Indian Mirage 2000 fighter jets to the -V standard. Since there is still a lack of clarity about the value of the upgrade contract, let me put down what best I know at this stage (the figure in the infographic below is a consolidated figure that includes the cost of weapons and infrastructure). The cost of upgrade contract is understood to be $2.7-billion. The cost of the weapons component is $700-million, and the cost of infrastructure between $500 too 600 million.

59 Comments

Anonymous

Anonymous

I would give the upgrade contract to Israel, which is almost half price of what the French are charging and would plough the savings into buying 40 brand new Rafales for the strategic air command as a dedicated nuclear delivery platform. The MMRCA contract more than likely would be signed with the Eurofighter. French could be given some more subs contract. They are still playing games with the TOT transfer related to scorpenes

Rajan

Cirrus

Please Shiv, give a realistic quotation instead of this exagerated one. You're smart enough to avoid this kind of basic French bashing.

The upgrade is a great chance to have great ToT for HAL and maintain the Mirage in the race.

Is someone complained when IAF decided to upgrade SU30 for a higher price and without ToT????? Is soemone complained when we bought C17 from the US (without any ToT or job's creation for us)at a 20% higher rate than Australia ??

@Cirrus: Good points, but there's no bashing here. I for one believe that while the French demand top dollar, they deliver some of the finest, most reliable equipment available today. Nobody is here to do India any favours — certainly not Russia or the U.S., so you're completely correct when you suggest that acquisitions of follow-on Su-30MKIs and proposed upgrades (incidentally, something I'm working on for a post here), and the acquisition of American-built aircraft are exhorbitant deals. The reason for this post is the debate that exists about this contract. And please be informed that this isn't a debate that has sprung up now that the deal's been cleared. It has existed since 2009 when the two countries agreed on a price.

Telegraph reported that "The 2.4 bn deal for upgrading 51 Mirageswas signed" and it was further stated that "Total costs will reach 4 billion as India will buy missiles worth $900 million and build facilities in HAL Banglore worth $500 million"

So in short, deal is worth 2.4 bn. While 1.4 bn will be spent on buying missiles and infrastructure. Please amend the article. Even though I prefer Typhoon over Rafale I cant just watch blatant mis-information.

Cirrus@4.09PM: The Super Su-30MKI upgrade package comes with uprated AL-31FP turbofans and an avionics package that is 15 years ahead of what THALES will install on the Mirage 2000H/TH. So don't compare apples with oranges. The C-17A acquisition is a turnkey project under which brand-new MRO facilities will be built for the IAF from scratch, instead of converting an existing BRD. The high-altitude engine test facility will also follow as offets. All this will not only create more jobs, but also bring in new skills and expertise.

Artanis: First, breathe. Now, is the upgrade in any way complete without the weapons and the infrastructure required to upgrade/maintain the aircraft? If the cost of upgrade per se is $2.4-billion (the most commonly quoted figure), does one de-link the cost of infrastructure and advanced weapons capability? Not rhetorical questions. How does one look at it? Is this a package upgrade, or are we to treat the price of each component separately, and therefore make each dispensable in a worst case scenario?

Tako Nada

Article

@Shiv I meant no dis-respect and I highly admire your work. I simply wanted to point out that almost an billion that is going in buying MICA missiles shall not be included as Upgrade Cost as they IMHO are separate from upgrade deal.In case I offended you then I offer my humble apology. Keep up the good work and thanks for promptly correcting article.

Artanis

@Shiv I meant no dis-respect and I highly admire your work. I simply wanted to point out that almost an billion that is going in buying MICA missiles shall not be included as Upgrade Cost as they IMHO are separate from upgrade deal.In case I offended you then I offer my humble apology. Keep up the good work and thanks for promptly correcting article.

Now that is what is called being expensive.Upgrading 50 odd mirages for 4-5 billion dollars is simply ridiculous.One can make that out from the fact that the IAF purchased 140 4+generation sukhois way back in 2001 which are still getting manufactured under HAL.Plus it's not just about the price but the equipment that the french are installing in our Mirages.RDY-2 is not an AESA but a pulse doppler multi mode passive electronically scanned array unit and the only thing that it can do is to fire Multiple mica missiles at no more than 4 targets simultaneously.Comparing it to what IAF has shortlisted for it's MMRCA requirement for which they are going to shed 12 billion dollars or even more than that we do se that be it technologically or aerodynamically the aircraft are way to ahead than the 3rd generation mirages.Let's take the Rafales only.In a period less than 3 years they will b installed with RBE2-AA AESA with two plane electronic scanning which means that the radar can generate highly accurate maps and fire air to air or air to ground munitions.Same goes with the Captor-E AESA radar on the Eurofighter.The french themselves have closed the production line for mirages and equipment designed for them.Instead we could have bought 40 odd rafales or eurofighters depending on whether dassault or consortium clinches the deal and could have invested this heap of money in giving it worthy and hefty upgrades in future.Plus like shiv stated that the aircraft is 78 million dollars a piece by comparison rafales flying cost is 90 million dollars a piece.Add 12 million and u get a rafale in flyaway condition.Calculating in the same manner we could have bought 50 more rafales at 5.1 billion dollars and what do we get in that are as follows:AESA RADARBest electronic warfare suiteGlass CockpitHOTASSTEALTHY airframeAdvanced weaponryM-88 snecma enigines producing higher Thrust levels than mirages.Quite sad to read shiv's post.:((

look at it this way.. if u think the mirage upgrade is too costly and it would be better to buy more aircraft in the mmrca deal…. this could mean that this deal is a consolation prize to france and the winner in the mmrca is going to be euro typhoon.. i think i would like to bet on this.

joygoswami

I totally agree with ShivJi, the French produce expensive yet one of the finest products one can offer. I am not sure if its a good deal or bad, just that its seems too costly and only time will tell if we did the right thing. We all remember, Bofors did serve us a lot in Kargil.I would wait for ShivJi to get us more news on upgrades and every other component involved. Also, I think this clears the path for Eurofighter for MMRCA 😉

Anonymous

I am almost certain that Rafael will not be selected for the MMRCA. This deal is to appease the French. Typhoon will take it away. Our deals with US is an indication of things to come. Once they won C-130 contracts and additional contracts for the additional transports, it was clear that NG and LoHeed would not win the MMRCA race. The Russians are being pandered through the development of the fifth generation aircraft, they will make their money there.Final word – the European consortium and the Typhoon will take this cake!

Mr. Ra

We may come to know the real price implications of this Mirage upgrade order when the scope of work and the price break-up are clearly known. It will be further understood in most unambiguous terms once the winner of MMRCA is declared.

I also do not get the idea that why Israeli offer was not accepted.

Till such facts are available I am left to assume that the prices may be OK, may be there some nuke capability angle.

that's roughly $4 billion Well in that much money we can buy same amount of new planes with better capabilities, like 50-60 f18 super Hornet, or even 50-60 Dasault rafales will fit in that price range…think on it

Anonymous

Wrong figures lead to wrong poll. But who cares since the CCS does not yet base its decisions on Internet votes, fortunately.

@A.X360: the French will deliver what the IAF requested! IAF never requested an AESA radar for this upgrade. If they had, the price would have been higher and you would have shouted even more "Oh my gosh the price is so exorbitant, IAF should better buy this or that". As the UK Defence Secretary recently said here, quality has a price.

Anonymous

I propose polls on:– Is the C17 purchase too expensive– Is $100M a single Su-30MKI purchased from HAL too expensive– Is 50.000 crores INR for 6 P75I too expensive– Is the defence of India too expensive

Anonymous

Anonymous

@Prasun K Sengupta: comparing an upgraded Mirage+9 MICA+TOT with MMRCA without weapon package or TOT is also a comparison between apples with oranges (9 MICA = 450 missiles for 51 aircraft).

BTW I thought that the Su-30MKI avionics is also from Thales. Will the upgraded avionics come from elsewhere, perhaps Russia? Never heard that the Russians are 15 years ahead of the French in avionics technologies.

Raghav

Since we are giving everyone a share in our defense industry, we should even let Pakistan and China some contracts. Infact, we can give Pakistan $80 million to upgrade all the public and railway lavatories in India.

Anonymous

You have to remember that close to 800 million will be reinvested in terms of offsets to India. Who knows what the offsets will include, they might make the deal worth it. MICA's cost a little more than 1 million a piece, they are incredibly expensive but very lethal. The weapons package is worth the price.

Litmus

Yes its way too much but its also the need of the hour for IAF…If IAF had opted for new jets then it will have to wait another decade until all of them are operational but in this case, better capabilities can be acquired in less amount of time.

Anonymous

India should have sold Mirages to a third country and bought say 80-100 Rafales! Get rid of the old inventory and buy new. 15 years from now, Mirages would be legacy fighter like what Mig 21 is today, now do we need that?

The Cartoonist

The cost is on the high side, mostly because the deal was delayed to the point that an increasing number of obsolescent components had to be reengineered. Would have been sweater a few years back (not to mention buying new Mirage).MICA deal shouldn't be counted in the overall price, assuming MMRCA is Rafale. Then common AA missile makes perfect sense. Otherwise, you add cost and complexity to the supply chain, not to mention strategic dependence to US AMRAAM. Liam Fox said 'you seldom get the best quality at the cheapest price'.– This is pure BS cum spin regarding EF: money was put in inefficient program management (e.g. multiple productoon lines and protoyypes) and in developing, but far less successfully, technologies that FR already had (notably FBW). So Rafale for MMRCA accounts for the "seldom" :-). – This is absolutely true regarding the M2000-5/-9 upgrade: the airframe and engine remain the same, far from obsolete (in my view: Gripen class, slightly better), but the system is a formidable leap forward, no relation to the "block" increments known to the F-16 world. The mission computer and weapons are the same as Rafale. By comparison, Israel is unproven, "cheap and nasty". Ask Macedonia about crash of Israeli upgraded Mi-7, or Romania about it's catastrophic Mig-21 "Lancer".

Anonymous

Well the problem which is being overlooked by commentators is that its just not an matter of price but Maintaining an adequate force and retaining pilot experience. I agree the cost is on higher side but the upgrades are really extensive and encompass everything except engine. Mirage engine is capable of pulling Mach 2.2 one of the fastest jet around. And I agree that wepon price shalln't be included in upgrade as it is upto us how many MICAs we buy. We could use other missiles in our inventory but MICA is considered one the best and we are paying good money for an good system.

Anonymous

@Anon 7.35 AM: good points. Nobody has a clue here about Israeli offer (cheaper but same capabilities? Very doubtful), not mentioning bad experiences with ISR for our Sea Harrier upgrade or tough difficulties with MRSAM and other programs. Liam Fox's words made sense.

JAS gripen cost as per wiki is stated between 40 – 61 million dollars(this figure might be bit old). It must be without any weapons package i believe which we are getting in this mirage deal. This deal is worth ~52 million dollars per aircraft (correct me if am wrong on this including weapons package)

Let me list out 3 categories in evaluating the cost of a fighter aircraft.

Kumbhakumaran

Anonymous

Nothing can be done in MMRCA so they are going for this deal. Anna ji should look into this upgrade package deal, may be he will get another chance to fest.

IAF should sell their Mirage aircraft's and buy 50 F18 or Rafales.

Shive you need to ask some BJP MP's these questions;

– Is this deal really worth paying so much money?– Is this deal another scam of Congress party?– Is India matured to stop a scam from happening? If 'yes' can this upgrade deal be checked thoroughly and stopped if it turns out to be a scam?

I already know that these questions will not be asked to any officials, but still I would like Shive to answer this!

Abhishek Bannerjee

I am not particularly sure about this upgrade. I think 50-60 mil.$/AC is too costly for a 25 year old aircraft. But then we do not have much options as of now.

Prasun Sengupta told me that AMCA (which was supposed to be a replacement of Mirage, Jags and Migs) is no where in sight. IAF is unsure about that aircraft and HAL & ADA are at loggerheads regarding AMCA and FGFA. According to Prasun Sir, the aircraft might not see the light of day anytime before 2035. So in that circumstances we have no other choice but being continuously bullied by such high-priced phoreign deals for next few decades.

Incidentally, DRDO officials had already said that FGFA and AMCA would be analogous to F-22 and F-35 respectively and hence FGFA won't affect AMCA's development and even the IAF seemed – or at least claimed – to be supportive of the program. And now they have allegedly lost interest.

Anonymous

@anonymous:with due respect i just want u to throw light on what i wrote once again.Ur interpretation missed its mark to what i wanted to convey.If u had to chose between two commodities having the same price but one having superior characteristics in comparison to the other wat will u chose….That's what i meant to say nd thnxx for taking out ur precious time to go through my post!!

Anonymous

Yet again the Un Progressive Alliance (UPA) has proved that they rather splurge on phoren maal rather than indigenize. What is the necessity to spend $4 Billion on an outdated platform if you can invest the same in making the LCA much much better and build indigenous infrastructure for the future. Another "Bofors" type scandal. Money going to Madam Sonia and her son-in-law Vadera's coffers.

Anonymous

@Anon-7:56 True indeed. We need to give more love to Tejas and I agree 100% to placing orders for more MK-II. But we face an dilemma, we cant produce Tejas fast enough and though new manufacturing facilities are being constructed for helicopters, jets etc but that will take time. During that gap we cant let our 50 jets to become outdated. We definitely should support indigenous weapons but we cant let our guard down while doing it.

Well to me it seems another 'please all' policy of the Indian government. Awarding the upgrade deal for such an astounding amount is indeed ridiculous, but i think it paves the way for the EF in the MMRCA. Looking at the brighter aspects of the deal, it will be an advantage for the air force,in that the fighter pilots are well acquainted with the aircraft so will not have to spend a significant amount of time in traning with an all new platform. Moreover they will be able to operate it in a much more efficient manner with an advanced version of the same machine that they have been operating for years. Another factor is the dwindling numbers of the aircrafts in the iaf, if a new plane is bought then it may take another 10 years to operate the machine as effectively as the mirages. India is already operating a huge variety of planes so adding new platforms will only add to the problems of managing such diverse fleet. On the contrary if the engines are not being modified then the govt should take a serious look at the deal again. Modifications of the avionics is a must, and the price that they are charging for the weapons are way too high, even if they offer the best weapons in the planet it does not mean that they can charge any price as they like. Having said all these things the upgrade for mirages are a must for keeping check at the depleting levels of the fleet and increasing its capabilities but the price paid should not exceed the value that can be derived from this aircraft.