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Rye Starter Not Working

May 31, 2012 - 8:43am

sarakaun

Rye Starter Not Working

This is my second attempt at making a rye starter and it's not working. I purchased organic rye flour from Whole Foods (bulk bins) and using Dole pineapple juice (canned, not from concentrate). This should be very straightforward, but I have no idea why this is not working.

On my first attempt, I used Peter Reinhart's updated pineapple solution and after 4 days, nothing happened. At this point, I should have seen at least some change. Feeling discouraged, I decided to start another starter using this method - I'm on day 3 and all I have is a paste. On day 5, I threw out the first starter because it did not seem like it would ever work.

The temperature in my kitchen is 72 degrees, I cover the bowl with cling film, and stir about 2-3 times a day.

This is wrong. For many reasons the starter may not be going, the least of which is that it hasn't been a few weeks.

I would suspect the bulk bin flour is part of the problem, no telling how long it's been there, how much dirt, dust, or other contaminants could be causing a problem. Also wrapping with plastic wrap restricts the airflow which could also cause the delay.

I got a Rye starter going in 3 days with water, white rye flour, and rye chops.

OP, if you can get your hands on some rye chops, try again with something like 4 oz water, 4 oz rye flour (bagged, not binned to start), and 1 oz rye chops. Mix and leave it in a container covered with cheesecloth or a paper towel, or with a plastic lid that's had some holes punched in it for airflow. The next day discard all but 4 oz of the mix, refresh with 4 oz water, 4 oz flour, 1 oz chops again, and repeat daily till it's happening.

How funny... the minute I posted the question after days of digging around, the starter looks like it's working. I just checked my starter and I saw 3 bubbles! I'm not going to lie, I got excited over 3 measly bubbles. Thanks for your responses - I'm glad I did not toss it out because I was getting frustrated over this simple experiment. I even thought Whole Foods sold me bad flour and was prepared to look silly in my attempt to get a $2 refund. LOL

Minioven: I'm a cold weather girl, so 72°F feels like room temperature. I'll keep that in mind when dealing with starters.

Wally: I don't have a wheat flour starter. This was my first attempt at a starter.

Based on this method, starting on day 4, I retain 1/4 cup of the starter and add 1/4 cup flour and 1/4 water. I do this daily - how long should this be done before the starter is ready to be used. During the period, I assume the starter remains at *room* temperature, not in the refrigerator.

When does the starter go in the refrigerator - I can't imagine leaving this out for good. I'm guessing after the starter is ready, it goes in the fridge and is fed (retain 1/ cup, add 1/4 cup flour and water) once a week.

After day 3, I can use a variety of flours. What works best for optimal taste. I have a couple pounds of rye flour, but I have other flours (KA AP, Bread, High Gluten) in larger quantities. What should I use the maintain the starter?

Almost all of us work by weight. A reasonable scale will cost you about $60. Until then consider that a cup of flour will weigh 4.3 oz. Flour should be measured by gently scooping or sifting it into the solid measuring cup and leveling it off with a straight edge. Do not shake or pack it. Most of us use starters of 100% hydration or less. (Bakers % is relative to the weight of the flour, not the total. thus 100% hydration is equal weights of flour and water.

Glad to hear you're starting to see activity. Now continue feeding for 7 days or so, until you have a rye sour that within 12 hours after being fed is spongy and has a distinct sour odor.

You can certainly refrigerate your starter once it's up and running. I'd advise feeding it twice a week, whether you use it or not. Throw out at least half and refresh. By the way, very little rye starter is required for most loaves, unless you're baking a bunch, so you don't need to keep more than a half cup of starter fed and on hand,.

As for using other flours, not sure what you're asking. You are trying to create a rye starter, right? So you will want to feed it rye flour. If you want to create other starters, you can do so by using their grain - you can make a whole wheat starter or using bread (wheat) flour make a levain. But I'm not sure why you'd want to dilute or alter you rye starter with another grain.

After the first couple days of the pineapple solution, I switched to 1/4 cup starter, 1/4 cup flour and 1/4 cup water. I did not notice any change in volume, but the solution is very runny - so much that it separates leaving liquid at the top. On other posts, I read that this meant my starter needed more food(flour). Today, I used 1/4 cup starter, 1/4 cup flour and 3/8 cup water. After a few hours, I see a bit of liquid separation and very tiny bubbles when I stir.

I'm not sure if the volume has increased because I did not mark to container. Will have to do that the next time.

Is it normal for the liquid to separate? I've seen posts where they fed their starter every 12 hours - should I do this or stick to the once daily feedings?

Should I go back to the 1/4 cup liquid - at 1/4 cup, the starter is very runny.

If you're adding equal amounts of flour and water by volume, you have twice as much water as you need. Water weighs almost twice what flour does for the same volume. For a quarter cup of flour, use 2 tablespoons water.

The exact amounts are not critical, just keep the proportions 2 parts flour by volume to 1 part water by volume. When you start using a scale, use equal parts flour and water by weight.

Just to confuse things, different folks keep different hydration levels for different reasons. Some prefer very liquid, say 140% and others prefer stiffer mothers, say 60%. Once your mother is blowin' and goin', you can try different hydrations to see if you have a preference. Same with the grain with which you feed it. For what it's worth, I keep a 100% hydrated mother and feed it with whichever grain is on the counter at the time. Purist, I'm not.

to thicken it up until it resembles toothpaste. If it gets too much water, it can separate as the heavier flour sinks. A very liquid starter will not rise because it is too thin. Is the liquid on top sour tasting?

Sounds like you can thicken it up and watch it closely. Mark it to see if it does rise within the next 12 hours. What you're looking for is a rise and fall and sourness, along with the bubbles. When that happens reduce the size (to keep it in control) and then add enough water to double the amount, then add flour to thicken and turn into a paste. Then watch it again. I can't say that it will take 12 hours or 24 or 6 or 8 but when it starts rising and falling within 12 hours, it should be on a 12 hour schedule for a few days before changing it.

I use plastic wrap and a loose rubber band but stir a few times a day when out and just getting started. My surface tends to dry and crust so I cover it to prevent evaporation. You can also turn over a glass bowl on it or use a cardboard coaster. The idea is to let gasses escape but keep bugs out.

Trying to be patient but I don't know why I don't see a change in volume. Others have had their starters double within 12 hours. Why does it seem like the formulas out there are far from exact - if this should take longer or more feedings are required, then simply state that.

I made a starter from scratch I followed Hamelman's protocol and used Arrowhead rye flour. It bubbled overnight and then did nothing for 3 or 4 days. I dumped it and started another. After a 2-3 days of the same, I started reading some old posts here and found Debra Wink's posts. Not having any pinapple juice, I added 1/2 tsp of cider vinegar to my pasty looking starter. I figured that would drop the pH as well as pineapple juice and since it is a fermetation product, too, I couldn't be too wrong. It worked! A day later I had the beginnings of a frothy starter. I then fed it regularly for the next week and I've been good to go since.

I don't think you have a problem with insufficient food for your yeast; you probably don't have enough yeast for your food as evidenced by the lack of gassing.

If you are not already doing so: try using tap water that has sat out overnight or longer to let the chlorine dissipate; use unbleached AP flour (yeast want starch not gluten) and start with 95-100F tap water. For every 18F degree drop in temperature the activity of the yeast falls by 50%, i.e. if it takes 12 hours at 75F to replenish a starter, it will take 24 hours at 57F. You want it warm, but not hot enough to start killing them, 110+F.

Wild yeast may be more sensitive to high temperatures than commercial yeast. The following is from work by Michael Gänzle et al.

Conditions for Producing Sourdough

Lactobacteria and (Saccharomyces exiguus) yeast are sensitive to the temperature of their environment. At 81°F (27°C) the metabolic rate of yeast is at a maximum. At about 91°F (33°C) the rate of the lactobacteria growth is at a maximum. Above 97°F (36°C), the yeast dies, and above 106°F (41°C) the lactobacilli die. Below 40°F both have very little activity, but they are not killed. In fact, the yeast and the bacteria may be frozen without killing them. For the most rapid rise, ferment the starter and the ultimate dough at about 80°F (27°C). For a more acid dough, ferment at a higher temperature, below 88°F (31°C) and for a longer time.[1] For a less acid dough, ferment at about 75°F and for an extended time.

I agee, various strains of yeast and bacteria have diffferent sensitivities. S. exiguus is not as robust as S. cerevisiae when it comes to elevated temperatures. However, there is lots of evidence that states or implies that neither the bacteria dies at 106F nor the yeast at 97F. They would be dormant at those temperatures, i.e. not growing or respiring, but not dead. It takes higher temperatures than that to outright kill them. Their optimum activity temperatures are different, too. Taking advantage of these temperature differences is a way of selecting strains and their output in a barm. Also, the warm water will be cooled when mixing with room temperature flour resulting in a flour water slurry temperature in the 80's. I should have been clearer: I was only recommending starting with warm water, not heating the new starter, too. If I had a flour or fruit that I knew to be rife with S. exiguus (from northern California) and similar relatively cold thriving bacteria I would ferment it at 65F or so to encourage them and discourage the othe higher T strains.

or I'd ask them what perfect conditions they need so they could wake up and get into action. If I knew, I would put special drops in a bottle and sell them as a wonder starter conditioner. Then to make a starter mix flour and water and "so many" drops and in 10 minutes.... yeast action! One day...(dream on.) Until then, we have to figure out what makes these spores happy. They like it a little acid and they like it a little sour from the bacteria, moisture? (check) flour? (check) frantic waiting human? (check, double check) temperature? (check) moon phase? (wait, it's full -- that could explain the midnight checks on the starter) um how about TFL in the tool bar? (check) Ok, we're ready to park it into a large plastic bowl on top of the cupboard and forget it .. sarahkaun, is that a check?

What do they say about watched pots and boiling? Go do something else (watch Venus transit the sun?) and get distracted. :)

I created the starter using organic rye flour from Whole Foods and pineapple juice. It took a few days to get going and just when I was about to give up (the second time), it showed signs of life. For the daily feeds, I'm using KAF AP flour and used filtered water from my fridge that sat out of an hour. Seems like it may have been too cold. It's funny you say use tap water because almost every formula advises using filtered/bottled water. Tap water probably makes sense because I don't imagine people - 100 years ago - using filtered water.

I thought it could be because I was covering the bowl with cling film so I switched to paper towel and an elastic band to hold it in place.

I also had an issue with the consistency - when using 1:1:1 ratio, I had liquid separating at the top and was advised to add more flour. That made it thicker (thick pancake batter) and it no longer separates but I don't see a change in volume. I had a yeasty odor the first few days, but not so much today.

a lot and rise. Changing to water too soon might set it back. Keep in mind that a batter or thick liquid will have more difficulty in rising. A thicker mixture can rise easier because it traps the gas instead of letting the gas bubbles pop on the surface.

On that 1:1:1 ratio, was that with volume (cups)? The ratio is in weight. Water weighs about twice that of flour, so if you are using say 1/4 c water, then you would use two 1/4c scoops of flour to get the ratio right. Just checking.

I used this method and switched to water/flour on day 3 when the starter got quite bubbly. On day 4, I measured out 1/4 cup and added 1/4 cup flour (35g) and 1/4c water (volume). From the start, the batter was thin and I added some more flour to deal with the separation.

After reading about the issues with volume measurements, yesterday I switched to weight: 50g starter, 50g flour, 50g water. Still very thin and no volume.

The little lacto-beasties are working hard. Then come the yeasties. The test with the teaspoon of starter and food will tell us more.

I noticed the change the consistency, too. If that happens, do I need to add more flour to make it thick again?

Actually, it might be better to let it get a little more tart. (who knows, it just might decide to rise now) Then reduce it to a more manageable size and double it with a little water and more flour food.

If the teaspoon experiment takes off, then forget this starter and continue with that refreshed one. Save this one then as a back up for a few days and then compost it later. But first let's see what the teaspoon does. If the yeasts are being held back by borderline lack of food, their numbers will soon increase with the big increase in food. (1:5:5) Sometimes they just lie in waiting for a great food opportunity. :)

Here is a great video about making a starter--using a Sun-Maid raisin extract no less. Not to worry about the language, you can get the gist of it without understanding a lick. There are good shots of how a starter looks at different points along the way. His notes add that one may have to give a step 2-3 days more to get a result.

You are working with nature; starters like people, can all look a little different. As far as time goes, think of how long a loaf of bread has to sit out before the mold becomes apparent--and how that time changes with the seasons.

Mini has you marching down the right path; as she says: be patient--go get some yeast and bake a straight dough while you are waiting. If you haven't already tried it, the NYT no-knead recipe is a great way improve your skills while working with a forgiving recipe that makes a great loaf.

Thanks for the link. This is perfect because it shows the batter consistency as you mentioned.

Mini has been a great help and I've noticed both batters bubbling a little. I'll give it a couple days and hope it behaves itself.

I've done the no-knead ciabbata and it was delicious. Waiting to make pain a l'ancienne from BBA. I don't know what it is about good bread, but I'll take a loaf of good bread and good olive oil over lobster any day!

I'm a little hooked on my starter and love the intense aroma I get when I do stir. No real need to unless you want to check the consistency. Not so runny Rye starters do have a habit of rising and forming a crusty dome over the top of the starter and then cave in underneath retaining the dome. If you don't poke it now and again (the thick ones) you could be fooled into thinking it is still peaking when it is past peak for the slightest tear in the dome will send the starter collapsing. A strong fermenting starter (one that's ready to be used for baking) will not be bothered much by an occasional stir unless it is past the peak. No problem, ok to use past-peak rye starters within the day. Stirring might pop a few bubbles but it soon recovers if it is on the rise.

Sounds like you're sours are well on their way! YAY!!!

Runnier would mean that the fermentation is farther along. Good! Great! I love a race! Even one at snail's pace! The little one is further along so if you do decide to stick to just one, use one for muffins or pancakes where baking powder is used too, then be sure to keep the little one going. For now you may want to keep them both going and slowly introduce the 1:1:1 ratio starter to cooler temps again in about a week. It will have a slower feeding schedule but might prove to be a handy starter if it adapts to your cold kitchen.

Have you got a warmish cupboard above your refrigerator or a shoe box you could park on top toward the back (of the refrigerator) for a cozy starter spot? 20:50:50 or 1:2.5:2.5 is a great ratio! When it gets older in a few weeks, your options are wide open and 1:5:5 or 1:10:10 is not uncommon for building the starter to bake. Right now it would be too much dilution when the starter is so young. When weather is cool, and it takes longer to ferment, lower ratios are often preferred like 1:1:1 or 1:1.5:1.5 and temperatures vary throughout the year and naturally the starter will react as the seasons change or when there's a warm kitchen from baking or holidays etc.. :)

I stir thoroughly when putting together or feeding it and don't bother afterwards. It shouldn't hurt if you do. It will degas the starter resulting in a resurgence of activity as long as there still is sufficient food (sugars) present; yeast is in an equilibrium with carbon dioxide, too much suppresses it, remove it and it wants produce more CO2 until it reaches the equilibrium concentration again. This is why proofed dough volume maxes out until it is folded or punched down. If your starter is doubling volume in a reasonable period of time, I would not be concerned that it was insufficiently mixed or overgassed. Liquid starters are thin enough that the CO2 can easily diffuse out. A 60% hydration starter is thicker, but if well mixed in the beginning does fine without kneading. The goal for a starter is to grow just enough bugs so that it can start the leavening process in a bread.

As far as a warm spot, I think I'll park the starters in the pantry once they're ready. Right now, I have them in the oven as my home is a bit on the cool side (72 degrees is my definition of room temperature lol). I just need to make sure I don't turn the oven on by accident and kill my starters.

I think you can move it into the pantry but if you want to take a break, pop it into the fridge when it is about half way to peaking. Cover so it doesn't dry out.

When you finally take it out, let it warm up to see if it has ripened enough to feed. Cold starters have less aroma and taste. I'm guessing you can let it stand in the fridge about a week and not worry about it. Be sure to label it well to protect it. Then resume in a week in the pantry or countertop when temps are warmer. The problem with refrigerating the starter when you are trying to build the yeast population is that generally, the refrigerator benefits the lactobacteria and not the yeasts. Starters that are stored in the refrigerator need a few feeds before using to boost the yeast numbers. So if it goes into the fridge with low yeast numbers, it won't come out with more. That gets done at room temp, even at 72°F. It just takes a little bit longer than at 75°F.

If you want to pull a test of your starter for baking, and plan on using 72° to raise the loaf, you have to know your starter times so waiting doesn't drive you nuts. (like don't even look at it for the first 6 hours if your dough takes 12 to peak)

How long does a 1:1:1 and the 1:2:2 feeding take to peak?

Try making a 1:2:3 (s:w:f) dough with 1.8% salt and see it it can bulk raise the loaf in roughly 12 -24 hours. If it takes longer, you may want to build the starter with 1:1 ratios (add water as you need it) (reducing the amount of flour in the final dough because the flour went into the starter builds) until the starter contains half the flour in the recipe. Then the ratio for starter to fresh flour would be closer to the amounts you are working with, namely 1:1 and you can expect your dough to behave like the starter when it comes to rising.

More details can be found at: Flo's blog 1 2 3 (or this link) and you can play around with the formula a little bit. The neat thing is you calculate the basic recipe from the amount of starter. So if you have only 50g, you can make a cute little bread to test the yeast in it. Add warm water to speed things along for the first hour. (50g starter, 100g water, and 150g flour, 3g salt)

After I read your response, I mixed 50g starter, 50g water, and about 75g flour to form a thick paste. About 3 hours later, the starter has doubled. I guess my question is how long do I have to keep doing daily refreshes before the starter is good enough to be refreshed either weekly or when used.

I don't make bread daily - maybe once a week - but wanted to experiment with creating my own starter. Experiment done, haha. No use throwing out the starter, but daily feedings is a bit much. From your response, I can put the starter in the fridge and feed it when needed. I just wanted to know if it was best to carry on with daily feedings for a week or 2 to build up a good starter before storing in the fridge.

Go ahead and chill it. I would say if in 3 hrs it's doubled... put into the fridge about an hour after feeding. The day or night before you want to use it in baking, remove a portion from the fridge and feed it for the amount you need plus a little left over if you want to now feed that starter for chilling. Keep the one in the fridge until you have replaced it.

Go ahead and make that first loaf! You can even go for a bigger one! :)

I thought that I'd have to toss my culture out. It had been in the fridge for over nine months without feeding. Yesterday I took it out, mixed the hooch in with the flour mass and then did as Dr. Ed Wood in his book suggested. I washed the culture. By this morning the culture was bubbling and getting very excited. All day yesterday it seemed dormant but throughout the night it decided to go for it. I've fed it some KAF whole wheat and AP flour. If anyone would like more details on what I've done I'd be glad to explain further.

I've not had a chance to use much of my starter and it's been safely(I hope) tucked away in the fridge. Maybe every month or so, I remove it, let it come to room temperature, stir it, dump half of it out and feed it. When it doubles or so, I return it to the fridge.

Is the starter really safe to use? When does a starter go bad - sounds like an oxymoron considering the way it's created. As far as the scent, it smells like strong beer. Nothing funky, just sour.

don't worry, I keep a backup in the fridge, only pull it out every month or 2 for feeding and no problems. many go longer, also without issue. can a starter go bad, yes it can. if you see unusual colors, reds, pinks, greens, anything outside of the normal you usually see, toss it. black is usually dead yeast, but even then, odds are decent it can be revived. mold will kill a starter, as will starvation, a starter is a pretty resilient beast once it matures and there's a good balance of bugs.

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