I should be stupid ... I see not a glimpse of light in that thread, not the slightest beginning of interest, it's just mind tripping and ego playing gossip.If one is looking for a counter exemple of right speaking, there is the place ... wether Bönpo or Buddhist !

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

The Buddha's enlightenment can be called full, or complete enlightenment because it means that all the obscurations and causes of obscrurations which conceal the true, luminous quality of mind are fully and completely eliminated.

For example, clinging to anger is eliminated and also anything which might cause one to cling to anger, or for any 'real' anger to arise in the future has been fully eliminated.

Does this mean that desire, revulsion and ignorance themselves are eliminated?A buddha fully realizes that these kleshas have no inherent existence, so you could say they are liberated, or that any sense of their 'reality' has been transcended.

So, a Buddha still knows happiness, frustration, and even anger, but for him these are like the properties in the board game MONOPOLY. They have no actual meaning outside the game which is being played by ordinary people.

Ordinary beings are like the pieces trapped on the board, and perceive that the game is real, and go around and around and around. That is samsara.

In this regard, it doesn't matter if one is married or not. Rules of celibacy and other prohibitions only serve to keep ordinary beings focused on liberation, and not committing more negative actions.

Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth. Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

caveman wrote:I hope we can have a polite yet critical discussion on this topic.

I was once talking to a Bonpo Rinpoche about enlightenment and the Buddha.

Rinpoche stated that the Buddha was enlightened but not fully enlightened.

He stated that to be a fully enlightened Buddha you had to be a "Married Buddha" with children.

In Bill Murray's movie "The Razor's Edge" he tell the abbot of the Tibetan Monastery, "It's easy being a holy man on top of a mountain'. The Abbot replies, "You are closer to the truth then you realize".

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

There is no single thing that all marriages share in common.Therefore, there cannot be any component of marriage which can be identified as a prerequisite to enlightenment.

Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth. Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

David N. Snyder wrote:Siddhartha was not enlightened when he left the palace.

Enlightened or not, how did he not see that his dad had become an old man?

Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth. Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

David N. Snyder wrote:Siddhartha was not enlightened when he left the palace.

According to the shravakayana only.

N

Tashi delek,

According the previous 254 lives of the Buddha Shakyamuni as a Bodhisattva, written in the Jatakas, is it difficult to say that he was already before enlightened.According Dzogchen is Buddhahhood possible during the disconnection of the Mind and the Body = DharmakayaFrom the other side is everybody already enlightened and is this not to obtain only to experience, according DzogchenThe Indian Buddha Shakyamuni declared on the question of Ananda, how many bodies has the Buddha?Answer was 3 .

Do we know a "human "who did attain Buddhahood before the disconnection of the mind and the elements?Or is it possible for humans to get enlightened during their lifetime on earth before dying?

Can somebody make reference to such a case? That would be very good to understand the attainment of Buddhahood on earth.

There is a difference of opinion on that, and most probably always will be.

Buddha as emenation or buddha as real person.

Being no scholor I would not venture a definitive guess, but my presumptive guess is in Tibetan buddhism emenation is the prevailing view.

Full enlightenment occuring in a previous time and not in human form.A scholor could qualify my statement as true of not.

In any event as this thread initiated the buddha...was fully enlightened. In either event.By one he was not until he sat under the tree. By other he was already as but a emenation, so he was, very basically.In both events after he concluded his meditation he was fully enlightened.Called a buddha is fully enlightened.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Rinpoche finished his talk with me by tell me that "As long as I wear this robes I can never fully test my mind and see if I can be moved from my meditation seat"

But now Rinpoche is talking about testing himself basically.

So there it is, can you be fully enlightened without facing all the challenges that married life in Samsara and Nirvana can throw at you?

Sure but on the way to enlightenment, at anything less than the higher bhumi's, samsaric life is better fuel. The reason people become monks and nuns in the Tibetan traditions is to accumulate merit for the next life.

ronnewmexico wrote:There is a difference of opinion on that, and most probably always will be.

Buddha as emenation or buddha as real person.

Being no scholor I would not venture a definitive guess, but my presumptive guess is in Tibetan buddhism emenation is the prevailing view.

Full enlightenment occuring in a previous time and not in human form.A scholor could qualify my statement as true of not.

In any event as this thread initiated the buddha...was fully enlightened. In either event.By one he was not until he sat under the tree. By other he was already as but a emenation, so he was, very basically.In both events after he concluded his meditation he was fully enlightened.Called a buddha is fully enlightened.

Tashi delek,

According the different levels of understandings, are teached by the Buddhas the 84.000 remedies because illusion seems to contain the number 84.000 and not 83.999.

So the attainment is possible according Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen as the 3 doors to enlightenment over the 3 bodies.Well i do guess that each door has so its own attainment, but the fruit is the same because there is no difference between Buddha and Buddha.Sure the methods differ but the methods are never the result.

Best wishesKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Buddhism being a tool for me of most effectiveness. The tool of preference for me is found in Mayahana but much liking I have for theravada.

Theravadans to my opinion(no offense to others) seem nicer. So personally as a person conventionally I prefer theravada.

But I don't care much at all what my person likes or dislikes at all...so what matter. Persons are invariably in error. Will we prove who is right is that the intention of this thread....I suspect not. That would go on for years and years with no resolution.

Striving for this thing is my complusion no choice do I have in it. Show me other and then I would see how exactly it matters.To me it matters not...I must strive for that thing. It is what I eat breath live and feel.So what exactly matter I do this thing here or there.

YOu tell me perhaps? What is your concern in this thing?

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

You are a compassionate person and I respect your presence and favor the winds which presented us thusly, in this time and place of similiarity. It is to my great benefit to know you, and others here.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.