/ Munro completer, nearly.

Im just back from the NW area (Slioch etc), and now have just three "hills" for a full set.
I took an extra day off to recover not so much from the 30 mile day I put in two days ago, but the 500 mile drive home afterwards.(Im "Donald Ducked")

Its given me a chance to look thru' all my diaries from the last 10 years.I have worked out that so far I have ascended 155,000 metres, and travelled (Bike/walk or the odd run) 2711 kilometres.
Just thought i'd share that with you all.

PS . .am I anal ?

PPS . .on the summit of Sgurr Ban in Fisherfield, there are some prayer flags on the summit. Does anyone know the story behind them, or who put them there.
(There was also an awfully wierd shaped peice of rock too, next to the flags, shaped like a human foot/toes. I will post a picture later on my pic page)

In reply to Toreador: Good point, but I think the odd sign, which we already have, is worth the masses of erosion which occur at spots where the path is hard to spot. even on the PyG there are areas where the path is easily lost and the erosion footprint of the path is spread over a much greater area.

I also think there is a difference between decisions made at an official level, by many, is different to a decision made by one. I'd think it wrong to me personally go and install path signs on Snowdon just because I think they'd be beneficial..

In reply to Newbuild100: when I replied that I had left the flags I just knew that someone would jump on me for it. no I didn't leave litter- grow up. it was a special day for me. sorry if I offended some of you. no I will not be returning to take them down. personally I think prayer flags look good in the mountains. they do this all the time in Europe, where they are not so squeamish about signs and other things as too many folk are here

> (In reply to Newbuild100) when I replied that I had left the flags I just knew that someone would jump on me for it. no I didn't leave litter- grow up. it was a special day for me. sorry if I offended some of you

It's purely a matter of perspective whether your need to leave a legacy of your passing for others to find is litter or something more akin to graffiti.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: no im not and I think its pathetic of negative people to tell me what I should and shouldn't do. its quite normal to do this in other countries. when I was in Andorra I met a guy from Estonia who was climbing the highest mountain in each country in Europe and on each summit he left an Estonian flag. it was a nice ide- it made him happy and in any case it was none of my business. when I climbed musala in Bulgaria, almost everyone tied a Bulgarian flag on the summit. for goodness sake, whats your problem?

In reply to heidi123: Congrats on the completion, I can see the appeal of leaving something at the final summit. I imagine someone will remove the flags soon, a good thing as while they look nice for a bit they soon become just some more litter. Prayer flags in general strike me as just as tacky as a summit crucifix and are less usefully to ab off.

In reply to heidi123:
Sorry Heidi but you are in the wrong here. What people do in Andorra or Bulgaria is their own business. In Scotland leaving crisp packets, prayer flags, orange peel or whatever is littering and there is no excuse.

Have you noticed many other hills with prayer flags on top here? They may have significance in other countries as prayer flags, but here they are litter. Imagine if even only a tenth of the of the people who visited the summits of the hills followed your lead and left prayer flags. There would be a right mess. I'm not so sure you'd be so keen on it then, whatever the apparent personal significance of it to you.

I was out walking in the Lakes last summer, and there seemed to be England flags of all shapes and sizes stuffed into cairns on the tops during Euro 2012. It was such a shame that people felt the need to spoil the tops like that.

> PPS . .on the summit of Sgurr Ban in Fisherfield, there are some prayer flags on the summit. Does anyone know the story behind them, or who put them there.
> (There was also an awfully wierd shaped peice of rock too, next to the flags, shaped like a human foot/toes. I will post a picture later on my pic page)

I do hope this doesn't catch on. 1 persons prayer flags are a 1000 other persons' litter

> (In reply to heidi123)
>
> My problem is that other people would rather not arrive at the summit of a remote and beautiful hill and find it cluttered up with your litter.
>
> Tell me, does the expression, "It's not all about you." mean anything to you?
>
> jcm

I think the point has been made, personally, I like places to be uncluttered, but it was disappointing on my last trip up North where we were picking up various items of litter and disposing of them.

I would probably have removed prayer flags along with bottles, crisp packets and banana skins. I do think she was wrong, but we can only hope that Heidi ( and others) will be a little more thoughtful in future, particularly on the more remote peaks, where, in my opinion, the 'damage' is more than say on the tourist honeypots like Ben Lomond or Nevis.

In reply to heidi123: I thought you were very brave admitting to it on here! I understand why you did it but as it isn't the norm here in the UK and it will be/has been considered litter.

I wouldn't remove them though, I'd be scared of upsetting the mountain Gods...I'll leave that to one of the above.

A friend of mine (in another country) suggests leaving a small stone on the summit of a special (to you) mountain, and taking one to leave elsewhere, to commemorate another occassion. Not every summit, just the ones that are special to you. So maybe in this case a small stone from Nepal to leave on your last Munro, instead of the flags. Or maybe a stone from the first Munro to leave on the last.

In reply to Martin1978: the stone is a nice idea, but I will keep quiet about it! and as you say, its not a good idea to remove prayer flags. to be honest im surprised they are still there. I imagined they would have blown away- which is much more favourable than removing them and upsetting the mountain Gods

In reply to heidi123: Blown away is much more favourable yes, My mate who is a farmer loves it when random crap that people leave in the hills' blows into his fields and entraps inquisitive animals etc. Much better than them being removed into someone's bag and disposed of in a normal matter like.. a bin.
On balance Heidi I don't think anyone was really having a go, or making you out to be a bad person, I just think that your attitude of "don't care" frustrated some including myself, they don't belong there and we don't subscribe to "mountain gods" in this country, it's litter, has no place and looks better and more rugged without it, on another note though well done on completion and next time celebrate with a beer but take the can/bottle home ;-).

In reply to Jimboandrews.: I don't drink. and I love it when I see rubbish like fertiliser bags in fields and on the fells that farmers have just dumped. sorry about my "don't care" attitude. I felt I hadn't done anything wrong and in any other country everyone would have felt the same. and the belief in mountain Gods is a personal one. I believe in them

In reply to heidi123:
Sorry Heidi, but it's just not the case that "in any other country everyone would have felt the same". Prayer flags may have some significance in to some people in some parts of the world, but it's not universal.

I find difficult to understand that having walked up all the Munros, you chose to leave rubbish on the summit of your last one. Didn't the lack of similar rubbish along the way not give you some kind of clue as to what is acceptable or not?

You could even add some ribbons with your wishes written on them, a couple of plastic fairies, a garden gnome, some coins, or whatever other items you think the local spirits would just love to have...

> (In reply to heidi123)
> Sorry Heidi, but it's just not the case that "in any other country everyone would have felt the same". Prayer flags may have some significance in to some people in some parts of the world, but it's not universal.

Well said.

Heidi - you may or not be aware that a few years ago there was quite a debate about people leaving memorials on mountains and the consensus was that it shouldn't be done. However innocent you felt your actions were, the ethos in the British hills, as far as I'm aware, has always been "take only photographs, leave only footprints" (and if possible don't leave them).

I didn't understand your comment really. Most foolishly opinionated? I can't say it was that, but you may have disliked what I said. Oh, and I don't update the profile so it's more like 4-16 years that I've been climbing, and 22 years that I've been walking and enjoying TGO.

If you would be the type of person to get so irate over discovering a prayer flag on top of a summit ANYWHERE in the world, then God help you (forgive the pun). Everybody has their own set of values and beliefs, some religious, some not. Prayer flags do virtually no damage to the environment, so really I don't get the opposition to this. As I said, I would be interested to discover flags. Just because I can't afford the flights to Kathmandu haha!

^ The real irony given your "show tolerance" argument is that the action of placing a prayer flag on the summit of a munro is actually enforcing your mess / tourist tat upon on other people. What would happen if every munro completest wanted to leave a memento?

> (In reply to kinley2) im sure the mountain Gods will know I didn't mean any harm. unlike some people from UKC

Ah - presumably they'll know that whoever takes them away and uses them as fuel or something soft and strong at Shenevall is acting with a reverence for the sanctity of the Scottish Hills in their hearts then.

If you want a pseudo-religious slant - your actions are a bit like some 18th century missionary wandering in to native lands and plonking down a large cross, telling any protesting natives that it's all for the best. I thought that kind of cultural imperialism went out of fashion a century ago.

But in reality you've just littered a munro summit for your own glorification.

Best wishes on your journey towards maturity - it sounds as though it may be longer and harder than the mere munros.

What is your point exactly? If you mean that there are Ordnance Survey trig points on our hills and therefore leaving other litter is OK, I don't think many other people would agree. If it's anything else, you're not articulating it very well.

If it's just whataboutery, of course, then carry on. You might want to mention the Irag war in a minute, maybe?

> (In reply to Hans) Hi hans. im happy to read that you aren't going hysterical over my prayer flags! yes they did have a nepali script on

Excellent, yep I'm not fussed at all. To be honest, I have much more serious things to concern me, like whether my family and friends are OK. Your prayer flags mean something to you, but their effect upon me is negligible. Even when someone like yourself has gone out into the hills and enjoyed themselves the negative feedback on this site can be more baffling than even the hardest of crux moves. I know the issue lies with the prayer flags, but it's not like you left a field of oxygen bottles and broken tents. If I were you, I'd be chuffed, have a brew, and plan the next adventure.

I agree sorry, but if you have spent enough time in the hills do complete the munros it amazes me that someone does not consider leaving tat on a munro as littering. If I see prayer frags on a summit I will remove them along side other rubbish, and any time our club has climbed on The Ben etc we make an effort to fill bags with rubbish and take them down. Flame me all you want.

If it was up to me there would be no cairns and no trig points, but the trig points are historical now so that's that. If a cairn is not there as an actual useful purpose (such as some of the small, indistinct nav cairns in the cuilin) I will remove a stone each time I am at the summit, or in the mood kick one down.

> (In reply to Hans)
>
> "Been Climbing For
> 1 to 3 years"
>
> It's depressing how often the most foolishly opinionated posters have this on their profile.
>
> Still, never mind. We'll all be dead soon.
>
> jcm

What does the time you have been climbing relate to the time you have spent in the hills and hillwalking? Climbing is a moderately new thing to me, but I have been up in the hills since primary school.

> (In reply to fmck)
> [...]
>
> So you're one those tossers that totally trash the countryside with wind turbines and you complain about trig points!

So someone is a tosser automatically if they do a job where you don't like the end product? Hello kettle, I'm pot - gosh, you are mighty black!

Is it just me, or are people on UKC more interested in bashing each other than actually climbing nowadays? What happened to make you all so bitter? I always thought climbers were part of a 'community', but you all seem hell bent on tearing chunks out of each other. One giant troll-fest, to use the term you all love so much.

In reply to heidi123: I think that the thing that shocked me was that you'd completely failed to grasp the problem and why others were so upset. To me, "leave no trace" has been the central tenet of my love affair with the countryside, and if I'm honest, I was a little gobsmacked that you were quite so sanguine about leaving tat blowing in the wind, when you obviously care deeply about the mountains. I've spent a fair amount of time clearing up other peoples mess over the years, be it inappropriate memorials, graffiti, flytipping. I appreciate there's a scale, but it's still not a good place to start from and I hope your able to accommodate this, even if others have been less than polite

In reply to toad: toad- I was also upset by peoples attitude to me. as I have said a zillion times if you had bothered to read it I did not feel I was doing anything wrong. I certainly did not deliberately try to upset people but they have deliberately tried to upset me

> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously) no im not and I think its pathetic of negative people to tell me what I should and shouldn't do. its quite normal to do this in other countries.

It's just these sorts of selfish, juvenile attitudes that end up destroying the countryside for everyone (insert any damaging behaviour you feel like before 'no one should tell me what to do').
There's a limited amount of countryside and we all need to respect others and leave it in a state that others can enjoy. I think just the (nearly) universal condemnation should make you mindful that you have done something that will affect others in a negative way.

> (In reply to toad) toad- I was also upset by peoples attitude to me. as I have said a zillion times if you had bothered to read it I did not feel I was doing anything wrong.

And that is the nub of the problem, particularly if something is very personal to you. From my experience, I've also had difficult conversation with people allowing their children to pick wildflowers "'cos it's for granny and she's ill". An individual selfish act, done with the best of intentions, is still a selfish act. Typically it causes few problems, but the question you have to ask is "what if everyone did this?".

I have read through the thread, several times as it happens - and I've wondered about the wisdom of posting, but I think that this issue is an important one - we have an overcrowded island, and far more people are taking to the hills than ever before, and the cumulative impact is that much greater.

PS.FWIW, I've had far worse arguments on here in the past - my advise would be not to take things to heart.

I would be surprised if anyone thinks you deliberately set out to upset anyone, as I am sure that is not the case at all, and you are taking it the wrong way if you think that people are now trying to deliberately upset you. I don't subscribe to your belief of mountain gods in any way shape or form, but that's your personal outlook, and that's fine.

It's your (and others) apparent refusal to accept that the majority of hillgoers are not keen on finding stuff left lying about on top of a hill by other people, whether perceived to be well intentioned or not, that's a struggle to understand.

In reply to Scomuir: im not keen on finding fertilizer bags, rusty rolls of barbed wire, rusty oil drums etc etc that farmers leave and think they look a whole lot worse than some prayer flags. and as you say, beliefs are personal. I don't tell people what to believe in

In reply to Toreador: disagreement or difference of opinion is fine. name calling and bitchiness (usually by men who must have very boring lives) is quite different. and here we go round and round again.it doesn't change what I did does it now???

Not sure why you are singling out farmers, but yes, I agree, it can look worse, but that's missing the point. Even though you perceive your prayer flags to look more attractive than what you perceive as rubbish, once left lying about, it becomes rubbish.

If i left a big steaming turd just before you arrived on your last summit would it have been just as special a moment? If not, then you leaving your prayer flags could cause similar insult to the next person(s) to arrive, until somebody bothers to tidy your mess up after you....

Take it with a pinch of salt we all get slated on here at sometime, try not to admit to stupid things online and you probaly won't get as much shit.

> not sure why you are still going on with this topic. what is it you all want me to say??

Leaving them was hardly the crime of the century, I think it's the way you seem to still be defending it that grates with most.

I can't see much name calling or hate in the responses to you, to be honest. Why get defensive, when you could just laugh at your misunderstanding of what's OK, say you won't leave any more, and move on? Who hasn't done something daft sometime?

In reply to Toreador: Dear me . !
I cannot stand litter louts.
In fact, by shear coincidence, I have just been out for a jog and took someones car registation number, because they were dumping litter. I have reported them.
The irony of all the above is that when I came across the flags on Sgurr Ban, I thought it was really quite a nice touch, and never once looked at them as "Litter". I summited, by coincidence, with several other people none of whom commented on the flags being litter.

Maybe its about time to put this subject to rest. That will give time to people who are that up in arms about this "crime", they can ascend the "hill" over the weekend and take down the "offending" article

> (In reply to Newbuild100) not sure why you are still going on with this topic. what is it you all want me to say??

Jesus Christ, woman, will you stop with the whining already?? You've behaved badly; a large number of people have pointed that out and instead of showing any sign of regret you wallow in victimhood. This must be what it's like talking to Luis Suarez.

In reply to Newbuild100: maybe all you self righteous people will climb up mountains such as Snowdon, cairngorm, Ben nevis, high pike, Raise etc etc and remove the ski tows, cafes, seats and other stuff which make them look so unsightly to me. and on your way, pick up all the s**t that farmers have left lying around. im sure you wont of course!

> (In reply to Newbuild100) maybe all you self righteous people will climb up mountains such as Snowdon, cairngorm, Ben nevis, high pike, Raise etc etc and remove the ski tows, cafes, seats and other stuff which make them look so unsightly to me. and on your way, pick up all the s**t that farmers have left lying around. im sure you wont of course!

You're right of course but we can't do anything about them. All we can do is manage litter and erosion where we can on a smaller scale.

> (In reply to Newbuild100) maybe all you self righteous people will climb up mountains such as Snowdon, cairngorm, Ben nevis, high pike, Raise etc etc and remove the ski tows, cafes, seats and other stuff which make them look so unsightly to me. and on your way, pick up all the s**t that farmers have left lying around. im sure you wont of course!

None of that shit on Ben Nevis, there are a load of guidance cairns , and there was some memorial stuff, but that has all been removed in a clean up, and moved lower down.

> (In reply to heidi123)
>
> Disagreement is very different from hate.
>
> UKC is one of the least vitriolic forums I've seen. Probably largely due to being moderated. But also maybe because I filter out the pub/off belay sections ;-)

Can we now finally draw this to a close? Heidi has apologised for doing something she thought was unacceptable ('sorry for offending any of you'. You have all given you two-penneth worth, scalded her actions, and generally drummed it into her and everyone else reading this post that you don't like litter (or wind turbines) on 'your hills'. Ok, we get it, and I think she does as well. Now can we go back to enjoying the hills, and each others company without the perpetual ill feeling? Enough is enough - I am 99.9% sure that Heidi will not be leaving any prayer flags (or similar) anywhere again, for fear of the UKC hill police coming to get her. Time to move on.

Re Mountain Gods...hahaha
The amount of shit and strife that religion causes in the world, the hills etc are one place I can go and get away from all that bullshit.
So the the last thing I want to see out there is some of your schoolchild religious crap.
A mountain is just a lump of rock, the only cosmic experience I might have had will be from the miniscule change in gravity!

>Heidi has apologised for doing something she thought was unacceptable

Well, not really. Her actual words were

"when I replied that I had left the flags I just knew that someone would jump on me for it. no I didn't leave litter- grow up."

and subsequently, a hundred posts later

"all you self-righteous people..."

It's clear that actually she thinks that litter is OK as long as it's her beautiful meaningful litter and that it's all terribly unfair that nasty men are being horrid to her. If she had shown the slightest regret or understanding this thread would have been a lot shorter.

jcm - how convenient you chose to cut off your quote at the point where heidi apologised!

Put yourself in her shoes - you did something that others disagreed with, and got slated for it - repeatedly. Of course you might be on the defensive a little bit, it is human nature.

I think she has shown regret and understanding, but doesn't feel the repeated attacking of her is justified for what was an innocent mistake. To be honest, I think a number of you are being self-righteous. We have all made mistakes, and I my opinion, it took bravery to say it was her - she could have kept quiet, and then you would have had no one to chastise.

Let it drop - I really don't think it is helping anyone, and just makes you look like a dick - all in my honest opinion of course.

For the record, I don't agree with leaving prayer flags on top of a mountain, as I agree it adds nothing, and takes a way a lot. But I also believe that the point has been made, and you need to remove the chip from your shoulder and get back out and enjoy the hills once more.

Jeez, I've not seen such a vitrolic attack on one individual since the bad old days on here. Not a great moment for UKC.

Personally, if I ended up on top of a summit and saw a load of prayer flags I'd think "this summit must have really meant something to the person who left them", and then I'd have had a cuppa, possibly taken a few photographs, walked down the other side, and forgotten about it.

I couldn't agree more John. To get depressed or even angry over a few flags is laughable. What a bunch of sad anoraks.

I actually miss the piss take and slaggings that used to come part n parcel with climbing. Blame it on the 80s with those tights n stuff. Turned climbers very sensitive : )
But there was a heck of a gathering of Cagooles jostling to join in a mass attack on one person. Poor show.

> I've not seen such a vitrolic attack on one individual since the bad old days on here

I think there's something wrong with my PC, because I can't find any such thing. Apart from jcm's contributions of course, but that's par for the course. In fact the most abusive posts seem to be from Ms 123 ;-)

> if I ended up on top of a summit and saw a load of prayer flags I'd think "this summit must have really meant something to the person who left them"

and I'd think "obviously whoever left these has no understanding of the hills, probably a 3-peaker who's got lost", and take them down along with the assorted crisp packets and banana skins that usually accompany such things

> (In reply to various)
>
> Jeez, I've not seen such a vitrolic attack on one individual since the bad old days on here. Not a great moment for UKC.
>
> Personally, if I ended up on top of a summit and saw a load of prayer flags I'd think "this summit must have really meant something to the person who left them", and then I'd have had a cuppa, possibly taken a few photographs, walked down the other side, and forgotten about it.

I agree with Toreador.. I don't think its been that bad.. but I think toad speaks a lot of sense. In the UK we don't like to leave things. I know me wanting signs on snowdon seems hypocritical but I think a few well placed signs to control erosion aid safety are different to individuals leaving paraphernalia.

If I was walking up Snowdon putting signs whereever I think they should go then yes, it would be hypocritical, but all I'm doing is supporting the well thought out decision made by a large number of people.

If anything, by wanting more lower options, like the idwal ciruit, we save the upper mountains from some more erosion. There's a lovely loop in llanberis, takes a few hours to walk around the lake, cafe to cafe.. yet its not really well advertised.. board with maps at every parking spot on the route would really help.. the paths, loops are often there, just need more advertising.

I think at the moment people go up snowdon as its the obvious walk to do.

In reply to fmck: I do think your wind farm argument is non-sensical.. whilst i agree farmers litter its also wrong to use that as an argument for additional litter.

Wind farms go through months of planning and justifications, CBA.. they aren't just put up on an individual level. Going with your arguments we can not object to anything in Snowdonia as the slate quarries are already there..

In reply to Newbuild100:
Newbuild 100, thank you for sharing this post with us. I appreciated the stats you've added-up from the last ten years. I hope the last three hills go well, and have a good celebration on the last one.

I hate rubbish, and regularly collect a carrier bag-full on descending the mountain. Rubbish is ugly unsightly and left by thoughtless people. Plastic, rusty tin, aluminium, nylon etc lasts for years as a reminder of that thoughtlessness. However, light cotton / silk flags will flutter to pieces and are biodegrade. And leaving them at least was done with solemnity &/or celebration.

Now I wouldn't want every summit bedecked with Buddist prayer flags, or crosses/crucifixes, Virgin Marys, Islamic crescents, Shivas, or Stars of David, BUT , to find the very occasional summit with some coloured Tibetan/Nepali flags is not unwelcome. It is all about moderation (stressing very occasional).

After several months, when the flags are tatty/faded I'd happily remove the remaining string without rancour.

> when I climbed musala in Bulgaria, almost everyone tied a Bulgarian flag on the summit. for goodness sake, whats your problem?

When I was walking in Sardinia and I went to explore a cave off the beaten path, quite a few people had taken a dump in it.

When I was walking in Spain and I went to explore a cave off the beaten path, someone had taken a dump and a big steaming piss in it.

We'll not talk about France.

Because people in other countries consider it normal to take a dump anywhere marginally out of sight, can I do the same somewhere you are planning to walk to in the UK, and tell you "for goodness sake, whats your problem?"

But then my views can be discarded as I am male, I am probably just trying to oppress you or summit.

> I would be happy to arrive here and see this colourful sight, with NO other rubbish.

> Now I wouldn't want every summit bedecked with Buddist prayer flags, It is all about moderation (stressing very occasional).

So it's OK for 'one person' to deck a summit with prayer flags and you're happy - ok, you're entitled to your opinion. But when several hundred 'one persons' want to leave their individual summit with said flags or that several 'one persons' arrive at the same summit and then you have Heidi123 with her flags 'times lots' which then leaves a summit just pig ugly.

In the UK its just plain wrong and should be discouraged from the outset.....

In reply to bluebealach:
Thank you Bluebealach. Maybe I am underestimating the number of 'one-persons'. I have visited hundreds of summits all over Great Britain over the years, and have only seen flag tat and ceremonial stuff on a few tops, and those being the Honey-pot ones ( Scafell, The Ben, Snowdon etc.). If this is now becoming an increasing problem,and spreading regularly to isolated/remote tops, then I'm happy to be corrected. And don't get me wrong, I am happiest to arrive at a remote summit to find it pristine. Maybe there are just too many people now to allow individual acts of colourful expression?

Also, I saw 3 or 4 piles of cremation ashes on top of Bow Fell, L.D., and on chatting with a Ranger found out that this IS an increasing problem, as it does have an impact on a marginal ecological niche.

> Also, I saw 3 or 4 piles of cremation ashes on top of Bow Fell and on chatting with a Ranger found out that this IS an increasing problem

Agreed, it's quite disturbing to be eating your sarnies on Bowfell with the evenings setting sun and looking longingly across at the Scafells, only to find someones 'ashes' often dumped unceremoniously on the ground only a few feet from your own little piece of heaven!!

I was in the Galloway hills having something to eat next to a cairn when I spotted what I thought was a burgundy coloured plastic container. I pulled it out thinking it was like some kind of summit book. Nope it was empty and when I read some writing on it dropped it. They had stuck the emptied funeral container in the cairn!

> Also, I saw 3 or 4 piles of cremation ashes on top of Bow Fell, L.D., and on chatting with a Ranger found out that this IS an increasing problem ...

All this is arguing the same point, isn't it? And, in any case, all this has, I think, already been discussed and agreed to by the various authorities (such as we have them ...) in relation to the British hills. For example - as has already been mentioned in this thread - there was a clean up of memorials which had been left on the Ben.

The end point is pretty clear: please just don't leave stuff (of any kind) on our hills. Enjoy them; get out in them; but just leave them as they are.

>
> It's clear that actually she thinks that litter is OK as long as it's her beautiful meaningful litter and that it's all terribly unfair that nasty men are being horrid to her. If she had shown the slightest regret or understanding this thread would have been a lot shorter.
>
> jcm

I'm a happy anorak, so I'm not sure you care what I think, but I saw lots of completely separate people, who happen to feel much the same way, replying to something that they felt strongly about, posted by one person.

I can see how that might look like bullying or picking on someone - but we're on the internet, where people can't talk over you and the original statement doesn't vanish as soon as it's 'said', but sits there being 'said' again to each separate person as they read it for the first time.

There remains a non-zero chance that this whole thing is a troll, and if so it's a bit of a classic (I especially like the vaguely-defined quasi-religious stuff), but as I've been meaning to get back to these hills for a while, I'll try to do so sometime in the next few weeks and have a bit of a tidy while I'm at it.

Anyway, I'm off for a tussock-toddle while the weather holds; my anorak's already packed. Enjoy the hills, folks!

Its just folks perceiving things differently. I said before how can you get upset over wee flags but find a block of concrete (trigs) acceptable. At that point they all turn on the defence of concrete on the hill. I then say I agree because I helped build 400m3 blocks for wind farms. I then got called a tosser. Yeh canny win! : )

> how can you get upset over wee flags but find a block of concrete (trigs) acceptable.

> The usual saddo anoraks gathering to lay into one person...

> To get depressed or even angry over a few flags is laughable.

> I said before how can you get upset over wee flags but find a block of concrete (trigs) acceptable. At that point they all turn on the defence of concrete on the hil

Basically what you are saying is that if any mountain has an existing piece of man made infrastructure with a practical purpose (cable car, signpost, path, trig point) then it is ok to drop litter (crisp packet, prayer flag, fag end) ?

Clearly that is nonsense.

> What a bunch of sad anoraks.

Remind me never to visit walkhighlands ;-)

People are entitled to their own valid opinion ?
Especially when other people actions potentially damage their enjoyment of the hills.

For sure one prayer flag on its own is harmless. Though what would happen if every munro completest decides to leave their mark? It is the matter of principal that is being debated here - not one specific piece of isolated Nepalese tourist tat left in the fisherfield's.

> I said before how can you get upset over wee flags but find a block of concrete (trigs) acceptable. At that point they all turn on the defence of concrete on the hill.

And you already had replies. Trig points are already there and have been there quite a while. They served a legitimate purpose at one point and part of the history of the hills now. I would not complain if "they" decided to take them away, but it is unlikely.

In reply to Newbuild100: Heidi, congrats on completing your Munro round!! Personally I wouldn't leave the prayer flags, they don't have any significance to me or scottish hill culture. Saying that, if I arrived at the summit and saw them I would be surprised, take a picture, walk off and forget about them. If they were old and tatty then I would probably remove it just like any other piece of rubbish or climbing tat that is finished with!

One off is not so bad but if it happened all the time I don't think I would be so happy. The picture of them isn't that bad really??

Is it litter........well I suppose it is technically!! I think we could all justify the act rightly or wrongly!

> I noticed a picture of Goat Fell summit trig, Arran on another forum. It was taken last week and the trig had a new coat of paint. Who paints them still?

Goatfell is owned (or managed to use a more appropriate term) by NTS so I would assume that they do it. Many trig points sit on hills which are owned by estates and other landowners so have fell into disrepair. Walkers don't exactly have the authority or ability to anything about these. Litter and erosion is at least something which can be managed within the community. I am amazed that caring about our countyside and hills makes you an "anorak"

In reply to Milesy: In the UK we have a strong 'take only pics, leave only footprints' ethos..

Thats the be all and end of it for me. OK some groups may opt for changes, but after consultation. So plaques, memorials, flags, additional cairns are all frowned upon.

Its now common on the Bob Graham, small cairns marking the route.. luminous tape marks the paddy buckley in places.. and all those people will frown at littering.. or additinal changes yet want to make their own additions.. strange.

> (In reply to Newbuild100) Heidi, congrats on completing your Munro round!! Personally I wouldn't leave the prayer flags, they don't have any significance to me or scottish hill culture. Saying that, if I arrived at the summit and saw them I would be surprised, take a picture, walk off and forget about them. If they were old and tatty then I would probably remove it just like any other piece of rubbish or climbing tat that is finished with!
>
> One off is not so bad but if it happened all the time I don't think I would be so happy. The picture of them isn't that bad really??
>

I feel much the same. If the flags are cotton on a hemp rope or some other biodegradeable material then again that's less of an issue for me than if they were made of something that's going be around for decades, either on a cairn or more likely lying in a bog somewhere.

Yes there are worse bits of rubbish left on hills but that's no excuse for leaving more.

> Is it litter........well I suppose it is technically!! I think we could all justify the act rightly or wrongly!

It must be something to do with your name I think - but what's a in name Mr Cocks (sorry - my spellchecker is broken again)? Oh please, great master of the hills, enlighten a poor dim person such as myself with your worldly knowledge. Then perhaps I too can grow up to be an arrogant tit who gets off on belittling others. Pray tell, just what is the Irag war, or is your humour and wit just on a whole different level to mere mortals such as myself?

> (In reply to andymac)
> [...]
>
> Not by walkers. We don't exactly have control over what is done by landowners and people like the national trust.
>
> [...]
>
> How do you deduct this theory? Did you see it get chucked "over a cliff". Did you see it at the bottom of the cliff? Or did you make a random assumption because it was gone?
>
> [...]
>
> Good.
>
> [...]
>
> Who are the "Munro Chiefs"

In reply to Newbuild100: Well done and good on you (I've got a few still to do no thanks to that lot with altimeters). I have no probs with the prayer flags and they've at least got to be better than the plastic Mickey Mouse that was on the top of Stob Coire Raineach at the beginning of May... Come on, who put that there and why?

Yeh. Does Martin pick up all the animal dung he finds like the folks on here go on about litter. Must be a big sack on his back.

Feck sake imagine carrying yer shit in your rucksack! Its like a guy I used to go climbing with who admitted to pissing in his pot at night. Horrified that he had made me brews in the past. This one could be offering you anything at lunch time.

In reply to MG: I try.. I run 12-14 hrs a week.. the chance of needing a shit is high. Tonight I was out in Rostocker Hiede.. huge forest.. running with a mate, he's not used to the German food and always struggles.. 1 mile in he always stops for a shit.. 'Iain Where's my shit tree'.. he's got a really heavy Africaan accent.. just cracks me up.. it gives me an easy mile while I wait..

Running aids peristaltic motion.. its why when you don't run you get constipated as your body becomes accustomed to the motion of running.

> (In reply to andymac) Carry some toilet paper in a ziplock bag, and use said ziplock bag to carry your sh*t out with you. I thought that went without saying!

Nah.. I stopped for a shit twice running off snowdon one day.. took me 26 mins summit to llanberis with stops.. I was reported to Welsh Athletics as I basically just dropped the shorts and shitted.. but any runner has been caught.. from Paula to Steve Jones.. so they all just laughed..

An awful lot of people hiking in the national parks of the USA manage it every day. Plenty of ecosystems would be quite upset by human turds, and it takes a lot of effort to avoid contaminating water supplies etc.

In reply to wintertree:
Solves one problem, creates another. While plodding up Mt Whitney last October, we realised that some people hadn't quite grasped the concept. They had used the bags, and sealed them up. They then left them by the side of the path...

> (In reply to wintertree)
> Solves one problem, creates another. While plodding up Mt Whitney last October, we realised that some people hadn't quite grasped the concept. They had used the bags, and sealed them up. They then left them by the side of the path...

Presumably the same form of mental retardation suffered by many dog walkers in Britain.

Although to be fair I'd rather see a sealed up poo bag that the rangers can cart out than a steaming turd, as is apparently common on various parts of the continent.

Billy Connely tour of Australia states in Canberra " the perfect lines, etc hitler would be proud of. Its on his television show. Did he see something different when he made that statement.
Goodwin?
: )

> (In reply to malky_c)
>
> Billy Connely tour of Australia states in Canberra " the perfect lines, etc hitler would be proud of. Its on his television show. Did he see something different when he made that statement.
> Goodwin?
> : )

I'm not surprised that Mr Connelly quoted Hitler on his show. His fellow countrymen have voted into power an extremist goverment who are not very far off being nazis. Just watch them if they get indepence from us. They will show there true colours then.

Don't think I have ever trod on a human one so as long as out of sight don't care. On the other hand those that stick a turd back in their rucksack must always have folk round them going " you smell shit I'm sure I can smell shit" and checking there boots. You can just imagine everyone's faces if you piped up " no its me I did a shit earlier and I have here in my bag"