tfrizz wrote:Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)

I have no worry about Vokoun's ability. If we're talking about his age, he must be so psyched to be in this position, he'll have enough adrenalin to last him a while. We could always throw Fleury in for a game or two or until he embarrasses himself again.

What some on TV don't realize is that we are built differently than other teams. We are so loaded on offense that Vokoun doesn't really have to be perfect, just make the saves he is supposed to make and not lose us a game with a silly goal like Fleury.

Who knows, maybe Fleury can yet get the demons out of his head and be useful before it's over.

tfrizz wrote:Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)

I have no worry about Vokoun's ability. If we're talking about his age, he must be so psyched to be in this position, he'll have enough adrenalin to last him a while. We could always throw Fleury in for a game or two or until he embarrasses himself again.

What some on TV don't realize is that we are built differently than other teams. We are so loaded on offense that Vokoun doesn't really have to be perfect, just make the saves he is supposed to make and not lose us a game with a silly goal like Fleury.

Who knows, maybe Fleury can yet get the demons out of his head and be useful before it's over.

tfrizz wrote:Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)

I don't disagree with that at all. I don't think they can win the Cup without Fleury, which to me means now that they can't win the Cup. He is SUPPOSED to be something he is not - which is a franchise goalie. I had hoped he would be able to be the kind of rock that a team needs to win it all. That means giving a solid baseline of goaltending every night. He has too many peaks and valleys, and as the Isles can contest, when a goalie gives a team who is your equal or superior a game or two that they shouldn't have won, it is a series crippler.

I don't see us being able to get to the Finals or win it all without Fleury being what he should be by now. This team is not THAT good and several others are their equal in other areas of the game.

I'm completely on the same page as you. It's also why I, among others, believe Fleury isn't done for the playoffs. There will be a time when just getting solid goaltending out of Vokoun won't cut it, and they're going to have to roll the dice and see if "great Fleury" shows up instead of "ECHL Fleury". On the bright side, maybe watching Vokoun play some great hockey to finish of this round and hopefully get them through the second round makes Fleury feel less pressured if he does find himself back out there. He's got potential greatness in him, he just needs to settle down and slow the game in his mind.

Ideally, Shero would've taken precautions and brought in a goalie consultant and sports psychologist for Fleury after game 4. We've seen what happens when you put all your eggs in one basket; without taking these precautions, they'll be doing it again - only with Vokoun.

If the Pens reach a point where they feel like they have to go back to Fleury to steal a game, then it's already long over. I hate the terms that some people use when discussing Vokoun like "baseline" and "solid". 67 out of 70 saves in two games is just solid? Tommy didnt steal that game last night? Tommy can steal a game against the Isles but would be utterly incapable of doing it against the Caps in an East Final? Why?

Different teams, different styles of play, and the ability to exploit different weaknesses. Fleury's and Vokoun's play in the first round are actually really reflective of their regular season performances against the Islanders. Fleury's numbers in round 1 are actually an improvement over his regular season numbers against the Isles, and we all know how great Vokoun was against them.

Of the teams remaining in the playoffs, Fleury struggled pretty badly against Boston (.875 sv%) and Toronto (.875 sv%) while Vokoun was extremely well against Boston (.958 sv%) and never played against Toronto. On the other side, Vokoun struggled against Washington (.875 sv%) and Fleury played very well against them (.944 sv%).

As for the others, both goalies played well against the NY Rangers (Vokoun .952, Fleury .928) and against Ottawa (Vokoun .971, Fleury .951).

What we can take from the regular season numbers is this: Fleury struggles against teams that are more cycle-oriented and employ a great forecheck; Vokoun struggles against teams that rely more on rushes and pretty passes; and both play well against heavily defensive-minded teams. It is a rather accurate reflection of their respective strengths and weaknesses.

Fortunately, this means that each goalie will only have one team left in the playoffs that is a "bad match-up" for them and the only teams that both goalies struggled against have all missed the playoffs.

tfrizz wrote:Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)

I have no worry about Vokoun's ability. If we're talking about his age, he must be so psyched to be in this position, he'll have enough adrenalin to last him a while. We could always throw Fleury in for a game or two or until he embarrasses himself again.

What some on TV don't realize is that we are built differently than other teams. We are so loaded on offense that Vokoun doesn't really have to be perfect, just make the saves he is supposed to make and not lose us a game with a silly goal like Fleury.

Who knows, maybe Fleury can yet get the demons out of his head and be useful before it's over.

The only two concerns I have about Vokoun is whether he can hold up to the demanding playoff schedule (every other day), and whether teams can manage to take advantage of his weaknesses. The good news is that Vokoun's weaknesses (speed, mobility, reflexes) are much more easily defended than Fleury having trouble tracking the puck, but they can still be exposed. The second part is that those weaknesses just happen to be Fleury's biggest strengths, so it's not like they're completely screwed if a team does manage to expose Vokoun.

My biggest concern is that Fleury, if he sees action again in these playoffs, could be coming into a pressure packed situation rusty. As if it's not bad enough that he's struggling to handle pressure when he's played, just imagine what it'll look like when he hasn't seen action in weeks.

Still waiting on a good argument as to why Fleury's better than Vokoun.

It depends on what you need from your goalie. Fleury's the better option if you go full desparation mode, but Vokoun's the better choice the other 99% of the time. The best way I've seen it describe is this - Fleury is the higher ceiling / lower floor option, he's got that ability to single-handedly steal you games, series, or even a cup if he gets hot, but he could also single-handedly get you eliminated; Vokoun, at this stage in his career, is the lower ceiling / higher floow option, he's almost never going to be a liability on the ice but he needs the team to support him to go deep.

So, with how the Pens are built right now, Vokoun is an easy front-runner. They can overpower most of their opponents as long as their goaltending doesn't lose games for them. If they get to a point where they need their goalie to start stealing multiple games (or an entire series), you're more likely to get that out of Fleury than Vokoun - the key word, stealing, implying that the team, and goalie, isn't getting the job done otherwise.

tfrizz wrote:Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)

I don't disagree with that at all. I don't think they can win the Cup without Fleury, which to me means now that they can't win the Cup. He is SUPPOSED to be something he is not - which is a franchise goalie. I had hoped he would be able to be the kind of rock that a team needs to win it all. That means giving a solid baseline of goaltending every night. He has too many peaks and valleys, and as the Isles can contest, when a goalie gives a team who is your equal or superior a game or two that they shouldn't have won, it is a series crippler.

I don't see us being able to get to the Finals or win it all without Fleury being what he should be by now. This team is not THAT good and several others are their equal in other areas of the game.

I'm completely on the same page as you. It's also why I, among others, believe Fleury isn't done for the playoffs. There will be a time when just getting solid goaltending out of Vokoun won't cut it, and they're going to have to roll the dice and see if "great Fleury" shows up instead of "ECHL Fleury". On the bright side, maybe watching Vokoun play some great hockey to finish of this round and hopefully get them through the second round makes Fleury feel less pressured if he does find himself back out there. He's got potential greatness in him, he just needs to settle down and slow the game in his mind.

Ideally, Shero would've taken precautions and brought in a goalie consultant and sports psychologist for Fleury after game 4. We've seen what happens when you put all your eggs in one basket; without taking these precautions, they'll be doing it again - only with Vokoun.

If the Pens reach a point where they feel like they have to go back to Fleury to steal a game, then it's already long over. I hate the terms that some people use when discussing Vokoun like "baseline" and "solid". 67 out of 70 saves in two games is just solid? Tommy didnt steal that game last night? Tommy can steal a game against the Isles but would be utterly incapable of doing it against the Caps in an East Final? Why?

Different teams, different styles of play, and the ability to exploit different weaknesses. Fleury's and Vokoun's play in the first round are actually really reflective of their regular season performances against the Islanders. Fleury's numbers in round 1 are actually an improvement over his regular season numbers against the Isles, and we all know how great Vokoun was against them.

Of the teams remaining in the playoffs, Fleury struggled pretty badly against Boston (.875 sv%) and Toronto (.875 sv%) while Vokoun was extremely well against Boston (.958 sv%) and never played against Toronto. On the other side, Vokoun struggled against Washington (.875 sv%) and Fleury played very well against them (.944 sv%).

As for the others, both goalies played well against the NY Rangers (Vokoun .952, Fleury .928) and against Ottawa (Vokoun .971, Fleury .951).

What we can take from the regular season numbers is this: Fleury struggles against teams that are more cycle-oriented and employ a great forecheck; Vokoun struggles against teams that rely more on rushes and pretty passes; and both play well against heavily defensive-minded teams. It is a rather accurate reflection of their respective strengths and weaknesses.

Fortunately, this means that each goalie will only have one team left in the playoffs that is a "bad match-up" for them and the only teams that both goalies struggled against have all missed the playoffs.

The sample size used in this analysis is painfully small....as little as one game most of the time.

Still waiting on a good argument as to why Fleury's better than Vokoun.

It depends on what you need from your goalie. Fleury's the better option if you go full desparation mode, but Vokoun's the better choice the other 99% of the time. The best way I've seen it describe is this - Fleury is the higher ceiling / lower floor option, he's got that ability to single-handedly steal you games, series, or even a cup if he gets hot, but he could also single-handedly get you eliminated; Vokoun, at this stage in his career, is the lower ceiling / higher floow option, he's almost never going to be a liability on the ice but he needs the team to support him to go deep.

So, with how the Pens are built right now, Vokoun is an easy front-runner. They can overpower most of their opponents as long as their goaltending doesn't lose games for them. If they get to a point where they need their goalie to start stealing multiple games (or an entire series), you're more likely to get that out of Fleury than Vokoun - the key word, stealing, implying that the team, and goalie, isn't getting the job done otherwise.

You make great points, but I honestly think you're getting paralysis by analysis by micro-managing all of these statistical facts. Vokoun's just a better goalie than Fleury, he always has been.

Still waiting on a good argument as to why Fleury's better than Vokoun.

It depends on what you need from your goalie. Fleury's the better option if you go full desparation mode, but Vokoun's the better choice the other 99% of the time. The best way I've seen it describe is this - Fleury is the higher ceiling / lower floor option, he's got that ability to single-handedly steal you games, series, or even a cup if he gets hot, but he could also single-handedly get you eliminated; Vokoun, at this stage in his career, is the lower ceiling / higher floow option, he's almost never going to be a liability on the ice but he needs the team to support him to go deep.

So, with how the Pens are built right now, Vokoun is an easy front-runner. They can overpower most of their opponents as long as their goaltending doesn't lose games for them. If they get to a point where they need their goalie to start stealing multiple games (or an entire series), you're more likely to get that out of Fleury than Vokoun - the key word, stealing, implying that the team, and goalie, isn't getting the job done otherwise.

You make great points, but I honestly think you're getting paralysis by analysis by micro-managing all of these statistical facts. Vokoun's just a better goalie than Fleury, he always has been.

Fleury hasn't shown the ability to steal a playoff game in years (maybe once in the Flyer's series). Vokoun did it yesterday. I don't believe that Fleury has the higher ceiling...at all. Vokoun has stolen plenty of games playing for absolutely garbage Florida teams. Though I don't put much stock in it, his SV% is tied for 8th all time--and that's not the product of playing for an especially defensive system. His entire career he has only been on a playoff team twice, for Predators teams with no offense. He is not Brodeur, but he is a hell of a lot closer to him than Fleury is at this point.

The Snapshot wrote:Fleury was terrible in Games 2-4. Own goals and frantic overplaying of pucks - even the ones that didn't end up in the net.

Revisionist history is fun! MAF wasn't terrible in games 2 and 3. He was actually the reason they were even in those games after the 1st period. The Pens were getting severely outplayed in games 2, 3, and 4. He wasn't great, but he was more than adequate. The Isles were also getting a ton of bounces. The Okposo own-goal bounced off the boards against the grain...and Fleury didn't overplay the initial shot...he was still inside the post as he slid back. It was an unlucky bounce, but given the last couple years, MAF sucks

He was broken in game 4. You could see him fighting the puck, overplaying passes/shots, etc...but not until half-way thru the 2nd period of that game. You can only see so many pucks redirected either by your opponent or your own players leak thru before you start pressing. When Fleury presses, he's not very good...in fact he's pretty bad.

I don't mean to be an 'apologist', but I find it hilarious that people view the play of a goaltender and the play of the team in front of him as mutually exclusive. The team was being outplayed, outshot, and outhit...2/3rds of the games were being played in the Pens D zone with our D running around and our Fs waiting at the blue line for a stretch pass. This was not the same Fleury we saw in the regular season...but it wasn't the same team in front of him either.

Why is that so hard to accept?

If you find that Fleury's play in the off season has been acceptable this year and in the past, I'll have to conclude that you either have a Fleury poster on your wall or have never seen a quality goaltender.

Funny.

If, when trying to evaluate Fleury's play in the post season this year and in the past, you ignore the play of the team in front of him (or playing against him, FWIW), I'll have to conclude that you aren't really interested in seriously evaluating his play.

Serious question...minus the power play, how would you evaluate the play of the entire team in this series? How about the defensive effort against the Flyers last year? How would you rate the Isles offensive game vs. the Pens defensive game?

I'm not saying that Fleury doesn't deserve to be criticized, but he's not horrible...and we may just need him to win a cup. I just don't understand the need to completely drive him into the ground.

I have seen a quality GT though...it was just about every game for the past 2 months. You know what else I saw during that time...a quality team in front of him. I also don't have a poster of him on my wall, but he is an important member of my favorite hockey team. I'd rather root for him than personally attack him, but you do what makes you feel good.

Vokoun has 5 playoff victories in his entire career, and 2 of them came in the past week. Fleury has 45 playoff wins.

Vokoun's had a bit of experience at the international level in high stakes games, but it just doesn't compare to Fleury's experience winning games that matter most.

Is Fleury's confidence shot? Maybe. But if the Pens are going to win the cup, they're chances are better with Fleury. That said, their chances of losing a few games along the way that they shouldn't are also better with Fleury.

Vokoun has 5 playoff victories in his entire career, and 2 of them came in the past week. Fleury has 45 playoff wins.

Vokoun's had a bit of experience at the international level in high stakes games, but it just doesn't compare to Fleury's experience winning games that matter most.

Is Fleury's confidence shot? Maybe. But if the Pens are going to win the cup, they're chances are better with Fleury. That said, their chances of losing a few games along the way that they shouldn't are also better with Fleury.

pcm wrote:Vokoun has 5 playoff victories in his entire career, and 2 of them came in the past week. Fleury has 45 playoff wins.

Vokoun had 2 playoff wins in his career because he played in Nashville and Florida. If they got into the playoffs, they squeaked in and played Detroit and San Jose. Detroit was at the top of its game and San Jose was a terrible matchup for the Predators.

He showed his abilities against the Isles and turned the series around. I'd ride him till he gave me reason not to. I love Fleury but he was a mess when he was lifted - may not be all his fault but he sure wasn't helping matters.

pcm wrote:Vokoun has 5 playoff victories in his entire career, and 2 of them came in the past week. Fleury has 45 playoff wins.

Vokoun had 2 playoff wins in his career because he played in Nashville and Florida. If they got into the playoffs, they squeaked in and played Detroit and San Jose. Detroit was at the top of its game and San Jose was a terrible matchup for the Predators.

He showed his abilities against the Isles and turned the series around. I'd ride him till he gave me reason not to. I love Fleury but he was a mess when he was lifted - may not be all his fault but he sure wasn't helping matters.

Nashville didn't exactly "squak in" in 2006-07 when Vokoun went to the playoffs with them. They finished 2nd in the Central Division, and tied for 2nd in the Western Conference with 110 points. They also finished tied for 1st in the West with 272 goals.

For reference, that was the same season Crosby won the Art Ross with 120 points and Malkin won the Calder. The Penguins had scored 277 goals, only 5 more than Nashville.

pcm wrote:Vokoun has 5 playoff victories in his entire career, and 2 of them came in the past week. Fleury has 45 playoff wins.

Vokoun had 2 playoff wins in his career because he played in Nashville and Florida. If they got into the playoffs, they squeaked in and played Detroit and San Jose. Detroit was at the top of its game and San Jose was a terrible matchup for the Predators.

He showed his abilities against the Isles and turned the series around. I'd ride him till he gave me reason not to. I love Fleury but he was a mess when he was lifted - may not be all his fault but he sure wasn't helping matters.

Nashville didn't exactly "squak in" in 2006-07 when Vokoun went to the playoffs with them. They finished 2nd in the Central Division, and tied for 2nd in the Western Conference with 110 points. They also finished tied for 1st in the West with 272 goals.

For reference, that was the same season Crosby won the Art Ross with 120 points and Malkin won the Calder. The Penguins had scored 277 goals, only 5 more than Nashville.

Yes, you are correct they didn't squeak in that year but they had to play the Sharks - I didn't remember that correctly. The Sharks had 107 points and were a little less potent on offense and a little stingier on defense. It was a pretty closely contested series. The Preds scored 11 goals in his four losses - good but not great and four of those came in the 2OT loss in game 1. He lost 3-1, 3-2, and 3-2 after that.

They were the 8 seed his first year in the playoffs and lost to the Wings. He had a 2.02 GAA and stopped 93.9% of the shots he faced. He gave up 1 goal in two games at home. The Preds scored a total of three goals in his four losses.

He's only been in two series and he won three games for a franchise that only recently advanced past the first round for the first time. It's not like he played for a Cup favorite and caused them to exit in the first round on a regular basis. He's a veteran guy and the team responded well in front of him in Game 5. I don't think his lack of playoff experience limits his ability to play well in the playoffs.

NashvilleCat wrote:Yes, you are correct they didn't squeak in that year but they had to play the Sharks - I didn't remember that correctly. The Sharks had 107 points and were a little less potent on offense and a little stingier on defense. It was a pretty closely contested series. The Preds scored 11 goals in his four losses - good but not great and four of those came in the 2OT loss in game 1. He lost 3-1, 3-2, and 3-2 after that.

They were the 8 seed his first year in the playoffs and lost to the Wings. He had a 2.02 GAA and stopped 93.9% of the shots he faced. He gave up 1 goal in two games at home. The Preds scored a total of three goals in his four losses.

He's only been in two series and he won three games for a franchise that only recently advanced past the first round for the first time. It's not like he played for a Cup favorite and caused them to exit in the first round on a regular basis. He's a veteran guy and the team responded well in front of him in Game 5. I don't think his lack of playoff experience limits his ability to play well in the playoffs.

Nor do I. What does worry me, though, is that the team seemed to start reverting back to bad hockey in Game 6. I hope the improved play in Game 5 wasn't just a shock or awakening due to the goalie change otherwise the team could be in trouble, especially against a stingy Ottawa team - can't expect to average 4.17 goals for per game against the Sens, and that means they also can't give up the average of 2.83 goals against per game that they did against the Islanders.

NashvilleCat wrote:Yes, you are correct they didn't squeak in that year but they had to play the Sharks - I didn't remember that correctly. The Sharks had 107 points and were a little less potent on offense and a little stingier on defense. It was a pretty closely contested series. The Preds scored 11 goals in his four losses - good but not great and four of those came in the 2OT loss in game 1. He lost 3-1, 3-2, and 3-2 after that.

They were the 8 seed his first year in the playoffs and lost to the Wings. He had a 2.02 GAA and stopped 93.9% of the shots he faced. He gave up 1 goal in two games at home. The Preds scored a total of three goals in his four losses.

He's only been in two series and he won three games for a franchise that only recently advanced past the first round for the first time. It's not like he played for a Cup favorite and caused them to exit in the first round on a regular basis. He's a veteran guy and the team responded well in front of him in Game 5. I don't think his lack of playoff experience limits his ability to play well in the playoffs.

Nor do I. What does worry me, though, is that the team seemed to start reverting back to bad hockey in Game 6. I hope the improved play in Game 5 wasn't just a shock or awakening due to the goalie change otherwise the team could be in trouble, especially against a stingy Ottawa team - can't expect to average 4.17 goals for per game against the Sens, and that means they also can't give up the average of 2.83 goals against per game that they did against the Islanders.