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Strangely enough, though, not everyone who gets shot in the leg dies from it. In fact, I think you'll find a pretty high survival rate if you check, and no city of any decent size has an emergency response rate of less than 5 minutes. The only place that would sport a less potentially fatal wound would be the arm, which is generally much more difficult to hit.

And why wouldn't anyone come down from the mansion. The guard signalled an emergancy and then stopped responding, and there were sounds of gunfire. This means it's time to deploy. Even if they take a full defensive position, if there's no follow-up attack, then they have to send someone out to investigate what happened. The longer they wait the more chances the assailant gets to entrench, thereby becoming a much more dangerous problem. That's all normal procedure. It's practically guaranteed that someone will come down the hill, within the next hour at the very slowest, but more likely within a few minutes.

... I dont see how that presents any sort of an explanation for putting Eva's life at risk. If Roberto believes Eva's bluff... there is no way he can afford to take the chance of Eva dying. Its quite simple... there is only one way to guarantee her survival and that was to not shoot her. The simple fact of the matter is they AREN'T at a hospital, or a normal public place filled with good samaritans and as far as Roberto knows no one might even come to her aid. Just look at the old guy's statement. He said Eva was lucky that Tenma was there to treat her wound. That AUTOMATICALLY implies Eva's life was in serious danger.

Face it, Eva's life was in serious danger and Roberto put her life in danger by shooting her. There is nothing you can come up with to change that fact.

For the third time, Roberto has NEVER been concerned about any gunshot noises. He is using silenced guns for that very purpose. He has used guns before to shoot the first guard, and he doesn't expect anyone to come down to investigate. Roberto's ENTIRE plan is based on the guards not realizing that they are being attacked. His plan is sneak in Eva.. something that would never ever happen if the guards notice one of them is dead.

Roberto certainly isn't aware of any emergency signal being sent. Roberto's ENTIRE plan hinges on the fact that no emergency signal gets sent. So no, Roberto doesn't know if anyone will come down to investigate a non-responsive guard, nor does he know WHEN anyone will come (whether it will be in enough time to save Eva), nor does he know whether they will even want to help Eva out.

To say that Roberto is certain of Eva's survival after shooting her in the leg is quite unrealistic. There are a thousand "IF"'s involved.

Just listen to yourself.... you are saying Roberto KNEW for a fact that he wouldn't hit Eva's artery. He KNEW for a fact that someone would come down before Eva died (which could've be as little as five minutes). He KNEW for a fact that they would try and help her. He KNEW for a fact that they would have the skill to save her.

Too many things that could go wrong. There was a chance of Eva surviving.. but there was also a far greater chance that she might die.

Quite simply, the chance that she might die is not one that can be ignored if Roberto absolutely cannot afford to let Eva die.

Pure and simple fact - Taking the chance of Eva's death is completely incosistent with asserting that Roberto can't afford to kill Eva.

Face it, Eva's life was in serious danger and Roberto put her life in danger by shooting her. There is nothing you can come up with to change that fact.

I'm willing to agree that there's nothing I could say at this point that would change your opinion on this. For me this is all speculation, absolute fact has little to do with it.

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Originally Posted by avmoghe

Just listen to yourself.... you are saying Roberto KNEW for a fact that he wouldn't hit Eva's artery. He KNEW for a fact that someone would come down before Eva died (which could've be as little as five minutes). He KNEW for a fact that they would try and help her. He KNEW for a fact that they would have the skill to save her.

Except for the part about five minutes, yes, I'm saying all that. It's not as much of a stretch as you seem to think, especially given that it's pretty much exactly what happened. Maybe Roberto is just a better judge of a situation than either of us. In any case, it may be best to simply accept that things happened the way that they did, even if the probability was low, and trust to the future (or the manga) to learn more about Roberto's motives in all this.

Oh, and about the emergency signal: Roberto would be a poor henchling indeed if he went to all this trouble to set up the raid and then didn't notice the dead guard holding the pager with the glowing LED, and the text showing that the message had been sent. Even if it wasn't in his plan, he had to assume at that point that a warning had been sent.

The simple fact that the old gangster tells Eva she was lucky to have Tenma treat her wound AUTOMATICALLY makes it a fact that Eva's life was in danger. There is no other reason for Eva to be called Lucky after being shot in the leg.
So I certainly dont see any speculation about this. If a person is who is treated by a good doctor after being shot in the leg by a man "trying to kill her" (according to the old gangster), and is described as lucky... I dont see any other conclusion that you could come to.

You are definitely assuming far too much. There is absolutely no way that Roberto could have known that the guards would come down in time, or would have even tried to help her, or would have the skill to help her. You are basically saying that Roberto is a mind reader by stating that he was certain of Eva's survival.

I've never said there wasn't an emergency signal... I'm saying that Roberto could'nt have noticed it. The simple fact that he let Eva continue on her mission guarantees that he didn't see the LED. It makes sense too since if you look at the blinking LED, its hidden under the guards hand, where Roberto wouldn't be able to see it. Look at Roberto's position with respect to the dead guard. His view is blocked directly by the guard's hand.

If he had seen the LED, his plan is guaranteed to fail at that point. Does he stop Eva? No.. he lets her continue. There is no way that Eva would be allowed to enter the mansion grounds, if the guards have already noticed one of their own people missing. Roberto still had hope of Eva completing the mission... hence he could not have known about the LED.

The simple fact that the old gangster tells Eva she was lucky to have Tenma treat her wound AUTOMATICALLY makes it a fact that Eva's life was in danger. There is no other reason for Eva to be called Lucky after being shot in the leg.

How about this: Eva is lucky that Tenma (a good doctor) treated her leg, therefore there will be a full recovery, with no infection or even minor disability afterwards. You don't have to be in a life-or-death situation to be lucky to have a good doctor.

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Originally Posted by avmoghe

I dont see any other conclusion that you could come to.

Please refrain from this kind of statement. As I hope I've proven multiple times in this thread, while you may not be able to reach any other conclusion, I am capable of thinking in all sorts of weird directions and coming to any conclusion I darn well please.

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Originally Posted by avmoghe

You are definitely assuming far too much.

Actually, the only thing that I'm assuming is that Eva survived. Every other argument is made to support that assumption. I'm not the one who's trying to say that what happened shouldn't have happened, which is an argument that generally requires jumping to lots of conclusions.

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Originally Posted by avmoghe

There is absolutely no way that Roberto could have known that the guards would come down in time, or would have even tried to help her, or would have the skill to help her. You are basically saying that Roberto is a mind reader by stating that he was certain of Eva's survival.

No, I'm saying that if Roberto is to assume anything, it's that the guards will not be complete novices and will carry out their duties correctly. Based on that, someone will find Eva in short time. No mind reading is involved at all, just competence.

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Originally Posted by avmoghe

I've never said there wasn't an emergency signal... I'm saying that Roberto could'nt have noticed it. The simple fact that he let Eva continue on her mission guarantees that he didn't see the LED. It makes sense too since if you look at the blinking LED, its hidden under the guards hand, where Roberto wouldn't be able to see it. Look at Roberto's position with respect to the dead guard. His view is blocked directly by the guard's hand.

Just because he's not looking at it in that one shot doesn't mean he didn't see it. If the idea was to stealth kill the guard, then he would have to move the body out of the path, at which point he would notice.

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Originally Posted by avmoghe

If he had seen the LED, his plan is guaranteed to fail at that point. Does he stop Eva? No.. he lets her continue. There is no way that Eva would be allowed to enter the mansion grounds, if the guards have already noticed one of their own people missing. Roberto still had hope of Eva completing the mission... hence he could not have known about the LED.

Now who's making too many assumptions? This doesn't add up, you'll have to go into more detail about why the alert would stop the plan, or about why Roberto would even care if Eva survives, assuming that he's completely called the bluff. My own theory is that he wanted to use Eva as a distraction. If she got in and succeeded, then great, otherwise he would be following secretly, and the guards would reveal their locations while dealing with Eva, making his job much easier. Whatever he wanted to do, it required Eva's help. When she turned, he had to make a quick getaway, so he disabled (not killed) her as quickly and efficiently as he could and took off. She was found and treated quickly, and doesn't even end up with a scar (that bit might be a spoiler ). If the entire plan was to let Eva take care of everything, then he would have just given her the gun and dropped her off at the gate. The longer he sticks around, the more likely he is to get involved.

How about this: Eva is lucky that Tenma (a good doctor) treated her leg, therefore there will be a full recovery, with no infection or even minor disability afterwards. You don't have to be in a life-or-death situation to be lucky to have a good doctor.

um.. no. The gangster clearly says the "guy who tried to kill you was a professional". Since he uses the word "kill" its obvioius that Eva's life was in danger. If Eva's life wasn't in danger.. he would've said something along the lines of "the man who tried to wound you.. blah blah". Usage of the word "kill" implies that the wound was perfectly capable of causing Eva her life.

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Actually, the only thing that I'm assuming is that Eva survived. Every other argument is made to support that assumption. I'm not the one who's trying to say that what happened shouldn't have happened, which is an argument that generally requires jumping to lots of conclusions.

You specifically said in your last post that Roberto KNEW that someone would come down to Eva.. and that they would try and help her... and that they would have the skill to help her.

You are the one making the assumptions here.. after knowing for a fact that Roberto has no knowledge about the security or the guards. You are the one who is trying to assert a positive theory here. You are the one asserting that inspite of having no knowledge about security of the mansion, Roberto was perfectly certain of guards helping her and being able to save her life.

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No, I'm saying that if Roberto is to assume anything, it's that the guards will not be complete novices and will carry out their duties correctly. Based on that, someone will find Eva in short time. No mind reading is involved at all, just competence.

Roberto knows NOTHING about the guards. As far as he knows.. there could have been only that one guard that he killed. As far as Roberto knows... there could be no other guards at the mansion. Not only are you assuming the existence of more guards,.. you are assuming the guards will be able to find Eva in what could be as little as five minutes. Competence certaily doesn't cover any sort of response that quick.. nor does a guards' conpetence include being able to save someone whose artery has been cut.

So you assume four things 1.) existence of more guards 2.) detection of one of the own guards being dead 3.) ability to cure someone who might have been shot in a major body artery and 4.) ability to find someone in as little as five minutes.

You are the one asserting Roberto knows #1-#4 above... not me. You are the one trying to make the case that Roberto was certain that the above would happen when, in reality, Roberto knows NOTHING about security at the mansion.

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Just because he's not looking at it in that one shot doesn't mean he didn't see it. If the idea was to stealth kill the guard, then he would have to move the body out of the path, at which point he would notice.

Who says he moved the body out of the path? It might have been in the exact same place he shot the guard.

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Now who's making too many assumptions? This doesn't add up, you'll have to go into more detail about why the alert would stop the plan, or about why Roberto would even care if Eva survives, assuming that he's completely called the bluff. My own theory is that he wanted to use Eva as a distraction. If she got in and succeeded, then great, otherwise he would be following secretly, and the guards would reveal their locations while dealing with Eva, making his job much easier. Whatever he wanted to do, it required Eva's help. When she turned, he had to make a quick getaway, so he disabled (not killed) her as quickly and efficiently as he could and took off. She was found and treated quickly, and doesn't even end up with a scar (that bit might be a spoiler ). If the entire plan was to let Eva take care of everything, then he would have just given her the gun and dropped her off at the gate. The longer he sticks around, the more likely he is to get involved.

I do not assume anything. I am typing what the old ganster said Roberto's plan was. Roberto knew nothing about the security. He could not hope to get in himself due to his lack of knowledge. So he used Eva to try and kill Tenma. He can only use her to kill Tenma since a woman showing up would arouse the least bit of their suspicions. A woman wandering in was the only chance he had to kill Tenma. The old gangster says all of the above.

Roberto never ever had any notions of killing Tenma himself... his ignorance of security measures prevents him from ever doing the killing himself. Roberto only stuck around to see what the outcome would be after killing the first guard.

Its quite simple... you have taken it upon yourself to prove that Roberto knew with CERTAINTY that Eva wouldn't die when he shot her.

You are inherently incapable of ever proving that. In your arguments, you keep making random assumptions about the existence of more guards, their response time being as little as five minutes, their ability to save someone after being hit in the artery, and even their willingness to help a random person who has been shot.

The question is... do those assumptions hold merit? The answer is NO. Roberto knows NOTHING about the security at the place. He DOESN'T know their number, nor their competence, nor their ability in healing people.. That is a direct quote from the gangster character.

So until you can prove that Roberto knows with CERTAINTY that Eva will be saved, your entire argument is pointless. And that is something you will never be able to do.

Your mind can come to any conclusions you wish.. but the fact of the matter is.. your conclusions haven't done ANYTHING to guarantee Eva's survival. If you cannot guarantee Eva's survival, then the entire theory about Eva needing to be kept alive is voided.

You're hanging a lot of your argument on one line from one character who wasn't even on the scene when everything went down.

As for my 4 assumptions:

Quote:

Originally Posted by avmoghe

So you assume four things 1.) existence of more guards 2.) detection of one of the own guards being dead 3.) ability to cure someone who might have been shot in a major body artery and 4.) ability to find someone in as little as five minutes.

1) I don't assume this, but I assume that Roberto does. First of all, it makes sense. This guy is in need of protection, and would sensibly have a house full of guards to provide that protection. But most of all, it's the only reason he needs Eva in the first place. If Roberto had reason to think that there was only the one guard, why did he need this whole plan in the first place?

2) My assumption, which I could back up with evidence from the manga if you would let me, is that Roberto is not an incompetant boob. If he has half a brain (and I think he does), then he would check the body of the guard he had just killed, and find the pager. First, he'd want to make sure the guy is dead, and not just knocked out. Second, he would want to remove any weapons from the body, since any additional weapons in play can become a disadvantage in a situation like that. Third, he would hide the body in the bushes, because it's stupid to leave it lying around to give away his location.

3) I said it before, a tourniquet is a simple and speedy bit of first aid that anyone who has ever taken gun training knows how to apply, and all you need is a stick and some strong cloth. Admittedly, Eva would lose the leg, but she would probably live. Since it was Tenma that found her, he was able to fix her up without resorting to such drastic measures. She was lucky, just like the guy said.

4) You keep factoring in this 5 minute thing like it was a stone cold proven fact, but regardless, yes I think that she could be found in that amount of time by someone searching the area. Especially since, as Dieter said, that was the only path leading to and from the mansion. Anyone investigating the warning signal, Eva's shouting, or the gunshots would have to stumble across her.

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Originally Posted by avmoghe

Its quite simple... you have taken it upon yourself to prove that Roberto knew with CERTAINTY that Eva wouldn't die when he shot her.

You've misread me here, my purpose is to prove it was possible that Roberto knew she wouldn't die, since that was your original hypothesis. You are the one who is presenting everything as unshakable. Remember, this is not necessarily my stance, but you picked the topic and the side, and so I take the opposing view, and try to provide for other possibilities. That's how debate works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Your mind can come to any conclusions you wish.. but the fact of the matter is.. your conclusions haven't done ANYTHING to guarantee Eva's survival. If you cannot guarantee Eva's survival, then the entire theory about Eva needing to be kept alive is voided.

Seriously, all I'm saying is that things may not be entirely as you percieve them, and it would probably reduce your stressload a bit if you accepted that you might not have seen everything, or that some of your assumptions, especially concerning character motivations, might be wrong. I'm not saying that I'm guaranteed to be right, either, and you're free to present as many inconsistancies in the plot as you wish, but you present your arguments as absolute facts in a cold and static world, and treat any counter arguments as total fantasy. You'll never get anywhere by doing that.

Also, if there were no other conclusions that could be reached, why are you even posting this? I thought you were trying to get an answer to your question, but then you come back with lines like that. Why?

You're hanging a lot of your argument on one line from one character who wasn't even on the scene when everything went down.

Of course. He is the best person to tell us of Eva's condition since he was there when Tenma bought Eva back to the mansion, and he is the optimal person to explain to Eva how she was manipulated... since he is the only one left at the mansion. As a standard practice, everything that any character says is true unless there is reason to think he is lying. Its exactly why we can believe Tenma really went to Munich when he says that Tenma did. There is absolutely no reason to think anything the gangster said is incorrect so far, and I dont think there will ever be.

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1) I don't assume this, but I assume that Roberto does. First of all, it makes sense. This guy is in need of protection, and would sensibly have a house full of guards to provide that protection. But most of all, it's the only reason he needs Eva in the first place. If Roberto had reason to think that there was only the one guard, why did he need this whole plan in the first place?

Every one of my assumptions are assumptions YOU are attributing to Roberto. And no I dont guy it.... The gangster specifically says he has no idea what kind of security system the mansion has. It could be multiple video cameras or multiple armed guards as far as Roberto knows. His LACK of intelligence about the security system is what made Roberto use Eva. He has no intention of putting his own life at risk when he can have Eva do it.

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2) My assumption, which I could back up with evidence from the manga if you would let me, is that Roberto is not an incompetant boob. If he has half a brain (and I think he does), then he would check the body of the guard he had just killed, and find the pager. First, he'd want to make sure the guy is dead, and not just knocked out. Second, he would want to remove any weapons from the body, since any additional weapons in play can become a disadvantage in a situation like that. Third, he would hide the body in the bushes, because it's stupid to leave it lying around to give away his location.

No you may not back up with any evidence from the manga. The guy got shot in the head... Roberto SAW that he got shot in the head. I see no big mistake on Roberto's part to assume that he's going to be dead or atleast out of commision for the rest of his operation. There is no way he is going to get up from that. I see no reason why Roberto would want to move the body. The guard that he came across was the first one he approached. The entire area is enclosed by a forest of trees. He will be the first to see anyone that comes down from the path since there is only one path leading up to the mansion.

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3) I said it before, a tourniquet is a simple and speedy bit of first aid that anyone who has ever taken gun training knows how to apply, and all you need is a stick and some strong cloth. Admittedly, Eva would lose the leg, but she would probably live. Since it was Tenma that found her, he was able to fix her up without resorting to such drastic measures. She was lucky, just like the guy said.

The guards dont have to have any sort of training from anyone. The guards could be thugs off the street who have just learned to use guns by living among street gangs, for example. Roberto has absolutely NO guarantee that any guard will know how to use a tourniquet. Not only that, he has an even less of a chance that somoene will even FIND Eva in the five minutes that could have to live... something not guaranteed by even the best of guards. Eva was lucky yes, see above - she was lucky to SURVIVE because Tenma helped her. The gangsters words clearly show that the wound was capable of killing Eva.

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4) You keep factoring in this 5 minute thing like it was a stone cold proven fact, but regardless, yes I think that she could be found in that amount of time by someone searching the area. Especially since, as Dieter said, that was the only path leading to and from the mansion. Anyone investigating the warning signal, Eva's shouting, or the gunshots would have to stumble across her.

Yes if a newspaper article says that its possible to die withing five minutes, I believe it. Bring me something which says you CAN'T die within five minutes.. and I'll stop factoring it in. Your assumption here is completely unrealistic. Even if a guard sees the beeper immediately (which is not guaranteed in the first place since Roberto knows nothing about the security), there is no guarantee that they will come there within five minutes. The guard will probably proceed extremely carefully since he knows there is some killer in the woods. He isn't going to just rush to the spot running at top speed. More to the point, Roberto has NO way of knowing that they will see the signal in five minutes, nor does he have any way of knowing that the guards will find her in five minutes.

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You've misread me here, my purpose is to prove it was possible that Roberto knew she wouldn't die, since that was your original hypothesis. You are the one who is presenting everything as unshakable. Remember, this is not necessarily my stance, but you picked the topic and the side, and so I take the opposing view, and try to provide for other possibilities. That's how debate works.

I've already said my original hypothesis was ludicrous many many times. I am not defending my hypothesis in any way shape form. I am the first one to admit that my original hypothesis was just as shaky as the theory you are presenting here. I am saying something is unshakable based on what happened in the story or what the characters directly state.

You were the one asserting the possibility that Roberto couldn't kill her and that his shooting her can be explained by his CERTAINTY in knowing Eva would live. So, in order for you theory to be possible, you must prove that Roberto was certain that Eva would live. You have attempted to do so by simply asserting that Roberto knows with certainty four distinct things about the security system at the mansion (the assumptions). What I'm saying is that you cannot make those assumptions since its been clearly stated that Roberto knows nothing about the security system at the mansion.

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Seriously, all I'm saying is that things may not be entirely as you percieve them, and it would probably reduce your stressload a bit if you accepted that you might not have seen everything, or that some of your assumptions, especially concerning character motivations, might be wrong. I'm not saying that I'm guaranteed to be right, either, and you're free to present as many inconsistancies in the plot as you wish, but you present your arguments as absolute facts in a cold and static world, and treat any counter arguments as total fantasy. You'll never get anywhere by doing that.

Also, if there were no other conclusions that could be reached, why are you even posting this? I thought you were trying to get an answer to your question, but then you come back with lines like that. Why?

Yes of course, I haven't seen everything. What I AM saying is this - given the data that we have seen in the anime so far, neither my original hypothesis nor your current explanation seem to hold water.

I am always open to hear alternative hypothesis.. but I will not consider them as possible if they are directly contradicted by what someone has stated directly.

Let me be perfectly clear - I AM looking for alternate explanations. I certainly appreciate your effort to present me with one... I apologize if my tone was condescending in any way.

However, your explanation requires Roberto to know for a fact certain things that he cannot possibly know.

What I am looking for - Explanation of Roberto shot Eva in the leg.

Possible reasons -
1.) Roberto was trying kill her, she was of no more use to him - not possible since he could have shot her in the head or instantly fired off a couple more rounds.

2.) Roberto needed to keep her alive, but disable her for a few days (my original hypothesis) - not possible since Roberto would only keep her alive if he bought her bluff... and that is a situation where he cannot afford to jeopardize Eva's life.. which he did by shooting her in the leg.

3.) Roberto needed to keep her alive, but shot her in the leg to make a getaway (your explanation) - not possible for the same reasons as my own explanation. He is jeopardizing the life of someone he knows he cannot afford to kill.

So yes, by all means, present alternate explanations but please make sure that they do not require Roberto to know things he could not have known. If one is not possible at this time, given the amout of information the anime, then I'm prefectly willing to wait.

Both your explanation and mine suffer from the fundamental flaw that Eva's life was in danger when Roberto could not afford to put Eva's life in danger.

Both your explanation and mine suffer from the fundamental flaw that Eva's life was in danger when Roberto could not afford to put Eva's life in danger.

While I still don't necessarily agree, I will admit that this is a fair point of view. My own efforts to seek alternatives have been exhausted, and since noone else seems to be trying anymore, you'll just have to revisit this point when everything is finished. If anybody even remembers.

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Originally Posted by jalana

It's a good thing we're almost ready to release the next episode... it'll give you boys something else to "discuss," other than the merits/reasoning behind shooting Eva in the leg...

And no, the next episode is definitely NOT a filler, despite what non-manga readers might think...

Not a moment too soon, I think, although I can only imagine what kind of debates will arise out of the Munich story arc... along with more useless characters.

I have PLENTY of questions that need answers at this point. This series will be subject to a bit more scrutiny on my part than other anime since I have higher expectations of it.

At the end of the series we can discuss whether it made any sense for Roberto to shoot Eva... or why Lunge suddenly doesn't care about catching murderers.... or why Johan left Eva alive...why Tenma is letting Deiter tag along on a hunt for a serial killer... etc.. etc

I have PLENTY of questions that need answers at this point. This series will be subject to a bit more scrutiny on my part than other anime since I have higher expectations of it.

At the end of the series we can discuss whether it made any sense for Roberto to shoot Eva... or why Lunge suddenly doesn't care about catching murderers.... or why Johan left Eva alive...why Tenma is letting Deiter tag along on a hunt for a serial killer... etc.. etc

Just saw this episode (yes I'm behind but closing fast)... And I'm curious about Eva's state of mind at this point. I wonder why she insisted on the fact that Tenma wouldn't come to help her. I thought of a few options, and it may very well be a mix of these. 1) She doesn't feel she deserves to be helped, because she feels guilty 2) She doesn't want to be helped by him because of her grudge 3) She thinks he hates her now, for various reasons. Well ofcourse he helped her after all, so I wonder how that will affect her.

It's interesting how scary Eva can be, when she's drunk, but especially when Tenma refused her, or when she burnt down her estate. Up till now, she was intent on getting Tenma jailed in a "if I can't have him, noone can" attitude which also showed when she scared away his date. Does Tenma even know she gave a false testimony to Runge?

I think you're right on all three counts, which leads to the conviction with which she feels Tenma will let her die. As for that last question, he can't know exactly what she said, but he made his final decision to go on the lamb right after hearing her threats to "tell everything" to the police. He must have assumed she would lie to Runge.