Naruto 622 – First Meeting

The flashbacks continue this week on Naruto, as we get more details about the first meeting between the First Hokage and Madara, and the events that would lead to their truce and the founding of Konoha. For the most part, it’s another one of those chapters where I can’t say anything major happened to really spend that much time talking about, but I did find it interesting how “normal” Madara was back then. Well, I mean, as normal of a kid as you could be given the situation. Sadly though, we all know that it’s going to be short lived — considering we already know what’s going to happen — but it does highlight how in the end, even the most hated/disliked/crazy adults were just typical kids at one point. It really gives you a sense of perspective to say the least.

Speaking of perspectives… perhaps the biggest thing for me this chapter was the obvious disconnect between the views of the adults and those of their children. There’s just this whole commentary here — at least, for me — about how perspective really changes things. See, the adults have known nothing but the lives they’re living… while on the other, the children know the life they could be living rather than the one they’re forced into due to the fighting. Neither of them can theoretically be blamed for having their views, but at the same time… if one side were able to really see the perspective of the other side (both literally the opponents as well as adult/children opposition), it could’ve really gone a long way to stopping things before they escalated so far. And well, it’s just something I feel in general is pretty important in real life as well. Sadly though, it just seems like in some cases, you need something major to happen to forces you to recognize that there has to be another way… and well, the death of children in this chapter really hammers that in.

Philosophical discussions aside though, it looks like the next few chapters’ll probably be dedicated toward more flashbacks. Personally, it’s been somewhat interesting seeing the blanks fill themselves in… but sadly, these kind of chapters don’t particularly lend themselves to being things I could really talk about at length. Guess that’s it for this week!

I feel as though the Kishimoto-sensei is taking elements from the Naruto Pilot ( the plot where Naruto is really a fox and there is a special painting made by a guy named Kuroda). It is obvious that Madara and Hashirama were good friends until the person for Hokage was chosen. Madara possibly left, feeling that Hashirama betrayed their friendship and, as Obito said, believed that Hashirama’s “supposedly real goal” was to unite the Senju and Uchiha so that the Uchiha can be reduced to lapdogs.

There’s just this whole commentary here — at least, for me — about how perspective really changes things. See, the adults have known nothing but the lives they’re living… while on the other, the children know the life they could be living rather than the one they’re forced into due to the fighting.

Most adults get set in their ways, prisoners of the narrow perspective of their own individual life experiences. Which is why we need death, to allow dynamic, malleable young people to take their place so that there can be progress…

I’m actually thinking that, since Zetsu is a clone of Hashirama, he is black and white because he had 50% genes of White hair and Black hair. Obviously the black was more dominant in him, as was the white in Tobirama.

Maybe in terms of simply appearance with the hair color mixture, but otherwise, nothing else really.

I still think at least the original Zetsu was an experiment in mixing Senju and Uchiha DNA, which would explain the two distinct personalities that speak independently; the white half being the calmer, more logical mind while the black half was darker, more sinister and such.

Originally there was only two Zetsu, White Zetsu and Spiral Zetsu. Spiral Zetsu became part of Obito. After Obito witnessed the death of Rin and voluntarily returned to Madara, Madara explained his Moon Eyes plan to him. When Madara finished teaching Obito, he infused part of his own will into White Zetsu, making Black Zetsu, in order to watch over him until the time of his revival came.

The interesting thing to pick up here is how Hashirama is like Naruto, even as he grew to an adult his views stayed the same while almost everyone else’s views changed as they grew. Madara grew from someone who wanted to sit down and talk negotiations to someone who hated everybody, Sasuke went from a normal family loving kid to a brother hating and then village hating emo, while Naruto’s path stayed the same all throughout his life…to be recognized and to become Hokage without changing…well except Hashirama and Madara turned into gods of Shinobi and Naruto and Sasuke have nothing on them.

History repeats itself thrice over then. For every good hearted will of fire kid (Hashirama, Kakashi and Naruto) there’s a friendly rival Uchiha (Madara, Obito, Sasuke) who then becomes their ultimate rival and causes major consequences to the world (Madara’s Valley of the End Fight, Obito’s Fourth World Shinobi War and Sasuke’s Defection).

My image of expressionless Madara is crumbling….
It’s funny seeing him with a Naruto-esque personality though. He and Obito are pretty damn alike, except for Obito we got to see his hyper personality version first.

Ah, the good ol’ “Once upon a time, that stoic ultra-powerful demi-god antagonist used to be a giant brat when he was younger” thing. Though, even as a kid Madara was showing some dark moments that may be reflective of its time, but it’s a contrast to Hashirama’s more honest and idealistic expressions.

I agree but every peace and order comes with restricting freedom to a certain extent.It’s like two extremes of a scale with one end absolute peace and total restriction of freedom and the other end total freedom resulting in chaos and conflict – balance between the two is usually ideal.

Well, that was interesting. I’ve been rather disappointed with this arc so far (the kage’s revival and the Uchiha “unable to handle love” really annoyed me), but I was pleasantly surprised with this chapter. After last week I was afraid that Madara and Hashirama would have a semi-inverted Naruto/Sasuke like relationship, but this seems to not be the case. Their personalities and background are different from Naruto and Sasuke’s, as is their reason for friendship. It was also great how Kishimoto emphasized just how crappy the world was before the villages were formed, and used the kids disgust with the constant violence as the incentive for them to band together. I also enjoyed Tobirama’s scenes as well, he’s really coming off as the more intellectual and “political” of the brothers.

It’s interesting how the war and characters in the flashback contrast so heavily with the 4th world war. This chapter alone felt more like a “real war” than most of the 4th world war; corpses floating down the river, coffins being buried, friends and family dying left and right, and people acting like they’re at war. Perhaps it’s the fact that it’s two groups of people fighting instead of the world against one man and his army of carnivorous plants and zombies that makes it feel more real. Makes me wonder if Obito’s backup plan is to pull a Lelouch. It also feels like kid Madara and Hashirama are far more mature than Naruto; they know all about death and war and are trying to find a realistic solution, while Naruto (though getting better) still acts incredibly naive and optimistic. Compared to this flashback, both the current war and the characters feel like they’re still in diapers. We’ll see where this goes, should be interesting to see how things fell apart between Madara and Hashirama.

Obviously, Hashirama and Madara grew up during a time of constant war, fighting, death, etc between the Clans, forcing them to mature A LOT more quickly.

Naruto and the others of the younger generation grew up during times of peace where they were A LOT more sheltered from the real world, especially compared to other villages like Iwa and Kumo; both of whom are said to have kept their villages armed and prepped for future wars, so most likely had MUCH harsher academies and reality training than Konoha at the time. Add to the fact that Naruto had no parents or a (constant) guardian figure (while ones like Hiruzen and Iruka cared and tried, they couldn’t be there so constantly due to their own lives and responsibilities) to teach him about reality and whatnot, and it’s no surprise that Naruto would (annoyingly) remain SO naive, optimistic, impressionable (considering how easily he decided to take on Jiraiya’s dream and all), and so on.

Of course, this is also why I get SO annoyed that Naruto and co. are able to constantly beat TRULY powerful and experienced shinobi (with the addition of “moments of stupidity”, conveniences, etc); people with years, if not a lifetime of REAL combat knowledge, experience, ability, etc.

Kakuzu being my number one example so far in how he was able to single-handedly hold off both Team Seven AND Team Ten, including Kakashi and Yamato (two of Konoha’s best ANBU) and having almost one hundred years of combat and experience under his belt, including having fought Hashirama (though failed to kill him). Then Naruto comes in with a HALF-FINISHED technique, of which Kakuzu immediately discerned the dangers of, yet Kishi gives him a “moment of stupidity” just to allow Naruto to hit him with it and taking him out of the fight (allowing Kakashi to finish him off).

Everything moves forward… it doesn’t mean that someone with 100 years of experience and super fighting prowess cannot be defeated by someone younger and inexperienced or in this case by a team of skilled shinobi, too many factors and variables to account for plus even in reality if you ask the veterans who are skilled enough to survive through war and toil over the years, they just say “I was just lucky.”

Except the sheer amount of experience, fighting prowess, etc between Kakuzu and Naruto (add in the Jiongu ability on top of that) is SO huge, and it was just a one-on-one fight, not entire armies with a lot of chaos going on, at that time that Kishi just HAD to have Kakuzu have a “moment of stupidity” JUST to allow Naruto to win with a half-finished technique, even though it was clear that Kakuzu knew he should not let himself get hit with it and made sure to pay attention. “Guts”, “determination”, “will”, “heart”, etc only go SO far on their own without power, skill, experience, etc to back it up (and vice versa). And it doesn’t help that Naruto NEVER actually finishes ANY of the training he starts, further holding him back from his full potential using it.

If Naruto were a lot stronger, smarter, and more experienced (doesn’t need to be a tiny margin even, but just a lot more than he was at the time), if the surroundings were used a lot more for strategic advantages, and/or if EVERYONE else there was involved in the fight and not just Naruto and helped provide more distractions against Kakuzu, then I could buy the win.

Instead, it was nothing but Naruto alone against Kakuzu, in a pretty open area, and everyone off to the side, using his usual fighting pattern (you’d think, considering they’re meant to go after Jinchuriki/biju, that the members of Akatsuki would be sure to get full details on the fighting styles of the Jinchuriki they’re tasked to capture) coupled with the moment of stupidity that let him win, even though it was shown Kakuzu was more than able to hold him off. (Same with Nagato, only add in Kurama’s chakra crutch again, a hax seal block, and miracle healing.)

Of course, this all leads to how Part 2 started; with Naruto being very little better than how things left off with Part 1 beyond the basics. Nothing but a slightly bigger Rasengan and more (failed) usage of Kurama’s chakra, and it was made clear when Sasuke just effortlessly owns Team Seven upon their reunion, so of course, this is why Naruto had to be hax-rushed with power-ups so he could stand on more equal grounds without actually having to go through real training, fighting, and experience development, thus forcing Sasuke into getting the Mangekyo, and things going back and forth in that sort of pattern.

((And, no, the argument of “Naruto wasn’t at full strength” in the Team Seven reunion holds no water to me. Even at full strength, Sasuke had the ability to suppress Kurama’s chakra, thus Naruto’s trump card at the time is completely negated, leaving him with nothing more than slight variants of the same moves Sasuke has seen before while Sasuke has improved in every area, including the Sharingan and Genjutsu (which is one of Naruto’s greatest weaknesses, especially without Kurama) and despite several of Sasuke’s new moves still being Chidori-based, they’re at least moves that Naruto would not expect. So even if Naruto were at full strength, the result would’ve been exactly the same, ending with Team Seven getting owned.))

Maybe it’s just me that’s beginning to feel that chapters like these are being put in to extend Naruto. I mean, yeah, several hundred flashbacks ago I was interested in how two people met each other and what impact it had on the current events…but with this one, I actually don’t care, especially when (back in the present) the biggest battle of all time is going down. I was excited when I saw Hashirama vs Madara, but when it moved further back to their childhood? Yes, they were close friends that had the same views, everyone pretty much knew that, I don’t think we need a flashback, and especially not now, to describe it to us. Just get on with the Madara/Obito fight already!

Actually we did not know that they were friends or that they had the same views. What we knew back then was that Madara as an adult wanted to wipe out the senju and the only reason why he made a pact with the senju was because his people were tired of trying to kill the senju and forced Madara to make a pact.

Alright, fair point, and after thinking about it, maybe the flashback itself isn’t that pointless…but it’s the timing of it that bothers me. I would rather see developments in current events right now instead of more backstory.

This History repeating itself started with the two sons of the Sage of the Six paths as Tobi/Obito described it. The first son who thought that Power is the way to peace was rejected by the Sage because of that ideal notion and the second son who thought love was the way to peace was chosen because of this ideal concept, so the first son filled with rage and hatred because his birth right was stolen(kind of like an Esau/Jacob feud), challenged the second son and their feud will be passed down towards their descendants(the uchiha from the first son and the senju from the second son). It is a cycle that has come time and time again.

and i still have no idea wats gonna happen in the next chapter, i know its gonna be another flashback and it might show Hashirama and Madara in teenage form this time and seeing each other battle each other too. so thats my guess though so yea.

does anyone else feel like tobirama and hashirama don’t look related to each other? I mean at least hashirama looks like his dad, tobirama’s white hair is throwing me off lol. it doesn’t look ‘senju’ to me…