Posted
by
Zonkon Thursday November 10, 2005 @09:41AM
from the everybody-else-is-doing-it dept.

An anonymous reader writes "CNN is reporting that IBM, Sony, and Philips are creating a Linux adoption group. Called the 'Open Invention Network', it is intended to protect vendors and customers from patent royalty fees while using OSS." From the article: "Patents owned by OIN will be available without payment of royalties to any company, institution or individual that agrees not to assert its patents against others who have signed a license with OIN, when using certain Linux-related software. Traditionally, patents have been pursued for two primary reasons -- to defend one's own intellectual property or for barter to trade in cross-licensing agreements to gain access to other companies' patents. OIN represents a new form of cross-licensing that its backers say could spur innovation. "

Probably not. However you're forgetting how big a company Sony is. Just think of IBM - on one hand they are fighting against Microsoft through Linux and their servers and services, but on the other hand they are manufacturing chips for Microsoft's brand new console. They're all companies, not a single person. It's not personal, it's business. Noone involved in the rootkitting is also involved in this Linux alliance.

I think the biggest dispute is between the "uncoolness" of Sony Media (face it the pigopolists suck and no amount of advertising is going to change that perception in the market and the more time it spends in court attacking it's customers the wrose it will be) and the damage that it is doing to their sales. What is really suprising is that Sony Electronics has not forced a name change on Sony Media in order to minimise the damage being done.

Perhaps you are right. In the eyes of the law, a corporation is a single entity. I guess that people (myself included) also tend to think of it as a single entity. Maybe I should think of it as having "multiple personality disorder." The only problem is that I like to spend my money with companies who support linux, and I like to not spend my money on companies who support DRM. *Harrkev's head explodes.*

But seriously, I also wonder what the requirements for membership in this group is. This is a "if you don't sue me, then I won't sue you" club. But what if a corporation wants to join without holding any patents? They would get a lot out of joining, but not really have anything to contribute. Would they still be allowed to join?

"If you have patents" doesn't seem to be the defining feature of the group. The defining feature seems to be "if you won't sue open source over use of any of your patents." If you have 0 patents, you're not likely to sue anyone, are you.

Think of the KDE foundation. Allowing them to use these patents is the whole purpose of the excersise. That they probably have no patents themselves is irrelevant. Yet, to be truly open, they are allowing other entities (such as commercial operations) to use these pate

But seriously, I also wonder what the requirements for membership in this group is. This is a "if you don't sue me, then I won't sue you" club. But what if a corporation wants to join without holding any patents? They would get a lot out of joining, but not really have anything to contribute. Would they still be allowed to join?

I don't see why not. From the/. description:

"Patents owned by OIN will be available without payment of royalties to any company, institution or individual that agrees not to a

Or, in the case of a company like EDS, a seven headed dragon.;) Tough to kill once it gets in the door of your IT operation.

Think of this patent pool as the Microsoft Protection Program. The nuclear option if MSFT tries swinging the patent ax at Linux. If MSFT was smart they'd start planning a new competitive strategy. Fortunately, there's no fear of a ray of intelligence penetrating executive row at the Redmond campus.

In the eyes of the law, a corporation is a single entity. I guess that people (myself included) also tend to think of it as a single entity. Maybe I should think of it as having "multiple personality disorder."

Think of it as a tribe - composed of a number of related individuals with different (though often similar) moral codes and behavior.

Or think of it as a school - with different sports teams under different coaches and different service clubs, where one team might be rife with bullying and steroid use a

I'm sure Sony employees are just as outraged as the rest of us are about the rootkit. Fact of the matter is that the entertainment moguls (music, tv, movies) are in a completely different division doing idiotic stuff. Think about it, if MIT had one professor that ran a criminal record on his students, there would be other professors on campus that would be outraged. Same thing here.

Yet as a consumer I can only judge the company as a whole and not the individual divisions since I have no idea how deep the evil streak runs and don't want to chance that some other product or service is equally as nasty.

HP are one of the worst when it comes to printer ink predatory pricing! (enterprise printing MFD's are ok though). Ink that costs more per gram than solid gold?HP desktops I could take them or leave them, they're all the same to me.HP wintel (and winamd!) severs are brilliant, probably best of the breed!

Curiously enough, the printing division with their super-ink is most profitable, whereas the server division is almost always losing money.

Probably not. However you're forgetting how big a company Sony is. Just think of IBM - on one hand they are fighting against Microsoft through Linux and their servers and services, but on the other hand they are manufacturing chips for Microsoft's brand new console.

Saying IBM or Sony is like saying United States of America. Are you talking about Texas or Hawaii or Massachusettes?

Saying IBM or Sony is like saying United States of America. Are you talking about Texas or Hawaii or Massachusettes?

As a non-USA citizen I often think of USA as Geroge Bush and its government actions. I mean, that is the image you guys give to the world, it does not matter if you are trying to save the dolphins from the tuna nets down there... it is the overall image you give that counts.

Same thing for companies, look at Microsoft. They have several nice technologies and research (and its main CEO donates a

As a non-USA citizen I often think of USA as Geroge Bush and its government actions. I mean, that is the image you guys give to the world, it does not matter if you are trying to save the dolphins from the tuna nets down there... it is the overall image you give that counts.

Sounds like you have a bad case of ignorance. You might want to work on that. It is like someone from the USA thinks all French are cowards, or all Germans are fascists, or all Muslims are terrorists. It is great you can admit your fl

Read the parent carefully, he's talking about image. Image is the issue. He's not saying that it's just his "problem". It is the overall image that counts!I'd agree. I'm Aussie (married to a Texan, mind you) and everywhere the same anti-US sentiment is prevalent. It's not about the american people, much the same way that WW2 wasn't about the German people, it's about the government and the actions of the government.

So, America is a "democracy", the people are, to some extent, responsible for the actio

Yes, I did read it carefully. I understand it is our image he sees as bad. And I still reply to that saying that is stereotyping.You should accept that America's negative international image is a result of the voting of its people. When you have done so, what will be your next step?

Ahh yes, the good old "using a person's words against them" trick. Unfortunately you see, honest answers thwart such tactics. So you seem to be somewhat aware of our politics. First of, we are "Republic" not a democracy. Se

I don't think slashdot helps with America's negative PR. If a non-american was to come onto slashdot they would encounter for the first time: the view that global warming is simply a conspiricy to undermine capitalism, support for invasion of Iraq, scores of racist comments about Indians. In my life I've met many nice and nasty Americans. A common trend amongst them is that the Americans that challenge my own perceptions of the stereotyped "greedy, violent and rude American" tend to be the ones that underst

Yes, there are some here on/. who fit the stereotype of "the ugly american". It is also true that you can find something ugly about all peoples here. But you must admit that/. is decidedly left leaning including USA posters.

Yeah, during the day I'm really a nice guy, but from midnight till 4 AM I'm doing couple of break-ins and rob a few 7-11's. But that is a completely different me!! So "you should put the other half of me in jail".

You have utterly missed the point. Like so many people, you have bought into the notion that a corporation is a person, a single entity of one mind which decides on every action it takes.

It's not. Despite any legal status, corporations are made up of many groups; in Sony's case, many different companies! It's utterly silly to say "I'm not buying a PS3 from SCEA because Sony BGM did something really stupid". It's akin to having nothing to do with someone because their brother did something you don't l

"having nothing to do with someone because their brother did something you don't like" sounds like a recipe for a long term feud if the people are popular enough.After a few centuries, the people "having nothing to do with someone" are long dead but the feud remains. I know that the French are still around but for the life of me I can't figure out why. And I'm originally a Quebecois, a French speaker.

It may seem to the public like they are one big entity, but in reality they are a huge company with many opinions within. This is really true of any organization. Even within our own department here there are huge disparities of attitudes. Sometimes a project will arise that only needs one programmer and they get free reign on how to do things. Invariably they will write it in their favorite language on their favorite platform. If an outside person were to see my programs they would think "wow, they really

Most obvious is that japanese sony != american sony. Secondly is that hardware sony != content sony.

Content sony only cares about pushing its wares but so does hardware sony. Hardware sony does not want people to not buy their hardware because it is to crippled while content sony does not want people to use their hardware to duplicate their content.

Then you got japan sony coming from a slightly different culture then the american "lets sue" sony.

But what I think is at the heart of this is the Sony that does not want to be owned by Microsoft. While the internet tv might not have happened I am sure there are people at sony that would dearly love the idea of them producing the "next pc". It is the only possibly explanation for Linux on the playstation sold by sony itself. They can't make a single cent profit on it. So why do it if not for learning wether it can be done?

Might it someday be possible to buy in the store a non-ms computer? Worse perhaps a computer that is not like today's pc's at all but far closer to say, oh a mobile phone?

MS has really screwed over every single company it has dealt with and the IBM Sony's of this world would dearly like to see a future were MS can't dictate so many terms.

It is basic economy. When your supplier controls you you are not in control. At the moment it is MS that control the PC and PC makers like sony don't like that.

So it is not out of character at all. Sony is just trying to get maximum profit. MS being toned down a bit means that sony can better dictate the terms, the terms probably being "we want more cash".

Yah, the immediately previous story on the page is California's class action suit against Sony. Horns one minute and halo the next! Or maybe they want to get friendlier with Linux so they can get DRM working on Linux as well?

Software patents are not acceptable, these companies and others pushing for a stable ABI (binary drivers) are attempting to co-opt linux. To accept this patent pledge we would first have to accept that software patents are acceptable, they are not. If these companies are not prepared to mount legal challenges to patentability of software, this is at best an empty and worthless gesture, at worst an attempt to undermine copyright protection for software authors.

The idea of an anti-patent patent trust is as old as the hills, but to see this much corporate clout behind it was unthinkable not five years ago. It feels like there's been a sea-change and I like it. More important than helping IBM and Sony fight Microsoft, if this idea gained momentum it could seriously roll back a lot of the current technical stagnation on account of software/algorithm patents.

It all rather depends on how many patents end up in the combined pot and what value these patents have in the real world.

The reality of IBM's last foray into patent donation to the OpenSource community was much much less impressive than the publicity it generated. Most of the patents were either irrelevant to the OpenSource community or about to expire or both.

They have to be careful pooling patents, they can open themselves up to collusion, price fixing and anti-competition lawsuits. It would be the same as with Microsoft, just with a group of companies controlling what does/does not get into the free patent group. Nothing in this agreement is binding on other parts of the companies, Sony is a HUGE company as is IBM. So if they want to sue each other over patents OUTSIDE the common pool they can still do so.

Any drawbacks that my admittedly short sight missed? Can individuals join to avoid getting sued? Do groups need to have patents to join? I assuem they're still allowed to sue non-members, otherwise there would be no incentive for outsiders to join.

It sounds basically like a license agreement for use of a patent. Basically, by licensing an OIN patent from the patentholder you agree not to sue Linux developers over infringing on any patents you hold. By suing someone over infringement of one of your patants, you are infringing the OIN patent. I really can't tell if you basically agree not to ever sue against Linux, or if it is simply limited to the term in which you are using the patent. I haven't been able to actually find the text of an OIN agree

Yep. It's the next best thing to abolishing patents altogether for spurring innovation. And it's the furthest they can get in that area. Noone can abolish any laws in a democracy when there is a rich lobby that depends on them.

Would you accept that the US of A is a plutocratic/democratic republic?

I'd say that's a fair assessment--Americans form governments through elections (democratic process) that are heavilly influenced by money--especially coporate money (a plutocracy). The only real way to restrict the (usually corruptive) influence of wealth in government is through an informed, involved electorate. Unfortunately the American electorate is neither.

I'm actually glad that Sony wanted to join this grup. If any company has interest in it, why not?
The group will possibly grow even bigger... maybe companies like Microsoft?:P
I heard Philips say "Everyone's invited", so...

These three companies make their money in services and hardware-- ie. not software. I can't possibly imagine Microsoft joining given this. It would be like Microsoft and Oracle starting a group which would give out free hardware, and use the Open source community for free services (obviously hard to do). These hardware and service companies would want nothing to do with it.

Sure there is software involved- but if they make use of alot of FREE software on the CT scanners, or MRIs- they can either charge less (sell more in the process perhaps), make more profit, or get the product to market more quickly. The cost of the hardware is not going to fall very much unless there is a competitive force.

The cost of the software development is passed along in the form of hardware costs or maintainence contracts.

First impressions, this stinks. Let's extrapolate. What happens when this 'protection club' gets a little competition? Instead of one universally broken patent system for all we then have several competing gangs all trying to form the biggest group, each further partitioning knowledge into feudal provinces. Besides which, Sony are involved. Who of sane mind is ever going to trust a company with Sonys record now? To me a big point of Linux is a the 'fuck you' to the nasty big corps. To be honest I'm quite gl

, but at the end of the day when I saw that IBM ad with Linux portrayed as a child I couldn't help thinking of IBM as a child molester walking the kid out into the woods

Actually they chose a child because it best represented the mentality of most Linux fanboys.

Funny how it's "control and profit" minded companies employing most of the people working on OSS (not necessarily to work on OSS, but most OSS developers have to earn a living to allow them to "play"). Gee, I wonder how/. manages to pay for all

Honestly, just because the patent (under what terms exactly?) is available at no cost doesn't make it good. There is a lot of reasons to dislike software patents: price is one of them but not the only one. Additionaly, what about the completely broken USPTO? the lack of research for prior art? tre triviality? What about the complexity of the patent itself? How will you know what is exactly covered?
As an analogy: think Freeware vs Free Software.

Of course this doesn't make patents "good" . . . but the truth is, they're here to stay for the foreseeable future. If the "good guys" can use their patents to fight the "bad guys", it's a better world.

Not that the USPTO doesn't still need a good overhaul, but until then, this will help spur innovation.

No, you misunderstand Sony's motives - the rootkit is showing their support for Linux!You see, the rootkit only infects Microsoft Windows, and the "DRM" only stops Microsoft Windows from playing or ripping the music - Linux is splendidly unaffected by the code, and can play (and rip) the music effortlessly.

So, what Sony is doing is giving people more reasons to NOT run Windows but instead run Linux.

So, the actions of the two groups are in harmony - they are both supporting Linux at the expense of Microsoft.

Patents owned by OIN will be available without payment of royalties to any company, institution or individual that agrees not to assert (my emphasis) its patents against others who have signed a license with OIN, when using certain Linux-related software.

... would OIN be willing to counter-sue (backed up with its patent portfolio) say an 800 pound gorilla who find Linux violating some patents and sues linux users.

That doesn't seem to much sense so here's an example scenario:
- MSFT decides L

Considering Sony Music/BMG has been in Slashdot an awful lot lately, before we cheer or scream "DOOOOOOM", I want to know how much of Sony-BMG interacts with Sony the computer company? How much will Sony-the-Bad influence Sony-the-Good?

I suspect (hope) Sony is a big enough corporation where the left hand and right hand are fairly independent of each other...

OPEN INVENTION NETWORK FORMED TO PROMOTE LINUXAND SPUR INNOVATION GLOBALLY THROUGH ACCESS TO KEY PATENTS- - -Investors Include IBM, Novell, Philips, Red Hat, and SonyNew York (November 10, 2005) - Open Invention Network (OIN), a company that has and will acquire patents and offer them royalty-free to promote Linux and spur innovation globally, was launched today with financial support from IBM, Novell, Philips, Red Hat, and Sony. The company, believed to be the first of its kind, is creating a new model

what would happen if sony (or any other company, sony just taken by example) suddenly decides it was a bad idea to begin with and leaves this organisation?will they be able to sue all the projects that made use of sony patents or will the patents used during the period a company was member stay 'free of use'?

My netmd won't work (4 years and counting), and it's drm'd to fcsk. While I agree that drm may be viable in linux (I don't mind), I hope future models of netmd will be linux compatible. I guess it means I'll have to upgrade to a different model though (this is what you get for supporting a company early on..)

Is this the same Sony that's using [eff.org] a) DRM to promote their products for playback and b) to restrict fair use rights, while c) recommending a Linux-incompatible ripper (heck, a PC is even defined as running Windows there)?

What a strange twist of irony that they were to become a backer of... Linux

This brings to mind a curious question: would it make sense to include in the GPL a statement requiring that anyone who asserts software patents is not allowed to use the GPL'd software? As open source software grows into greater prominence, such a clause might make companies less inclined to assert software patents if there is a real downside to doing so.

(Why do I suspect I am going to get flamed badly for asking this question?;-))

It depends on what your aims are. If its political and/or ideological purity, then I would go with the "you assert your patents and you don't use the software" line. I personally don't think adding any such clauses in GPLv3 will do much to stop software patents since there is always the option of taking the last build of any software that was released under GPLv2 and forking it to stay under GPLv2.

Novell and Red Hat are also founding members of Open Invension Network. I'm not sure about Red Hat but I know that Novell has a slew of valuable patents that would help prevent lawsuits.
This is really neat. As more companies become members of the network, the stronger open source will be - legally. This is worst case scenario for companies like Microsoft. For example, would Microsoft shy away from launching a patent infringement battle against red-hat? I don't think they would flinch. But would they l

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The serious problem that Free Software/Open Source faces isn't that MS or anyone else will destroy Linux or Apache or whatever with patent litigation. The strength of the vested interests behind the big, successful projects means that's unlikely to happen. The serious problem is that people will be forced or scared away from starting or participating in projects that aren't household names and don't have powerful sugar daddies. No new small projects largely means

It seems to me that what these companies are saying is "Patents stifle innovation, so we're signing them away for practically nothing so that the world may get back to being creative again".This is likely to be invaluable ammunition once patent legislation comes back under scrutiny in the US, and the next time the software patent mafia makes a serious move in the EU.

I think in this case Sony sees a threat from Microsoft, and wants to gang up as much as possible. For Sony, DRM and patents are largely orthogonal. DRM has to do with copyright and the enforcement mechanism is primarily the DMCA.

I think it's worth noting that if Sony had to choose between ditching DRM and protection from death by patent litigation, it would choose the former. Content, especially music, just isn't as big a business as consumer electronics.

Either way, you can still hate Sony if it suits you. It's a pretty big company, it's probably OK to like one division and hate the other.

Doesn't Solaris have its own toolchain? I would think that if you dumped all the solaris stuff in/usr/bin and/sbin and replaced it with the GNU stuff, at that point it could be called GNU/Solaris. Funny thought, that;-)

Yes, indeed. I was merely trying to help make that differentation. Free software came first, and open source extended free to be more friendly to closed software; thus, all Free SW is Open, but not all Open SW is Free.

Probably you are being funny, but just in case: there is no GNU/Linux kernel. There is only a Linux kernel and the GNU software which together make GNU/Linux. In terms of differentiating between the kernel and the kernel plus libraries and toolchain, which seemed to be what you were orig

I haven't seen the specifics of the agreement, but it appears that IBM could indeed use the hardware company's patents if the use is for the Linux kernal or certain packages which run on linux (Anything with GNU liscense maybe?) In fact, anybody could use the hardware company's patents in creating Linux open source software. Okay, it seems that this is going to apply more for software patents than hardware patents, but a hardware company could still hold software patents. In fact, the software patents wh