I actually had doubts about this. Some scenes do look better composed in 2:1, sometimes it seems there is unwanted info in the 2.35:1 frame. I also noticed that the Criterion TV version has a different crop in some scenes....

I'll just trust the DP.

Thanks for the link. It was helpful to see the comparisons between the original Artisan DVD release which I have and the BD release. The original Artisan DVD release is pretty bad even by DVD standards; it looks like they used a VHS recording to make that DVD.

That is correct. Nice link But there's also cropping and resizing while authoring for DVDs and Blu-Rays to take into account, so Oink is indeed correct stating the French R2 DVD is 2.35:1 (or 2.34:1 to be precise).
This is getting a bit OT. I think I'll skip this Criterion release and wait for the french one.

Thanks for the link. It was helpful to see the comparisons between the original Artisan DVD release which I have and the BD release. The original Artisan DVD release is pretty bad even by DVD standards; it looks like they used a VHS recording to make that DVD.

Since the BD version seems to be much improved in terms of picture quality over the original Artisan DVD release, I went ahead and ordered the BD version with what I had left on a Best Buy giftcard. I guess I'll find out soon whether or not the reframing bothers me.

I understand you guys want more info in the frame. I just rather give more credit to the DP's claimed original intent. It is not a matter of right or wrong, it is a matter of taste and official taste (DP's)... Just MHO anyway, no big deal.

But check the 2.35:1 grabs at DVDBeaver, there are two that may justify the cinematographer's choice (or at least help clarify a bit),

It's not a matter of "wanting more info" or arguing over which framing is better or worse. Even if the reframing indisputably improved the movie, I'd still oppose it because it's a matter of historical integrity. Indulgence of artistic temperament and fickleness and wont to change your mind ends after a work of art is released to the public. If an artist changes his mind afterward, he's free to create a new version but to try to obliterate the original or contemptuously denigrate it as some bastard child that never reflected the artist's "true" vision? If Storaro is so unhappy with The Last Emperor that has been circulating for the last 20 years or so and was the basis for his Academy Award for cinematography, perhaps he should renounce his Oscar and return it promptly to the Academy. Doesn't matter if your name is Storaro, Bertolucci or Lucas. It IS wrong.

I'm not horrified by how The Last Emperor came out. It looks good with a cut & trim. It looked good before but maybe a little less intimate. The thing that scares me is that resizing films a la Emperor could become a fad. I don't wanna be in one disc-cussion after another like this one. I just don't wanna see half the very wide films in the known universe altered, rethought, or whatever you want to call it.

I hope this was a rare event.

In real life I am Dot Mongur champion of the International Pacman Federation. I don't play the game, I operate it.....no dot is safe from me....

If Storaro is so unhappy with The Last Emperor that has been circulating for the last 20 years or so and was the basis for his Academy Award for cinematography, perhaps he should renounce his Oscar and return it promptly to the Academy.

Good point.
His Oscar was the result of his camera work in the OAR!!!!!NOT 2:1!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachael Bellomy

The thing that scares me is that resizing films a la Emperor could become a fad. I don't wanna be in one disc-cussion after another like this one. I just don't wanna see half the very wide films in the known universe altered, rethought, or whatever you want to call it.

The perfect way to get rid of those HORRIBLE, AWFUL Black Bars.
Wouldn't that be a great solution for all those complaining about the "picture not fitting their TV?"

All this talk about the ratio and picture transfer. Isn't anyone bothered by the sound transfer? All I'm getting is mono from the DTS-HD tracks. Wasn't this blown up to 70mm. Shouldn't there be a 6 track mix somewhere?

I'm not horrified by how The Last Emperor came out. It looks good with a cut & trim. It looked good before but maybe a little less intimate. The thing that scares me is that resizing films a la Emperor could become a fad. I don't wanna be in one disc-cussion after another like this one. I just don't wanna see half the very wide films in the known universe altered, rethought, or whatever you want to call it.

Is anyone else besides VT on this 2:00:1 aspect ratio revisionist kick? The shrinking of 2:35:1 OAR to 1:78/85:1 OAR to fit I can understand even if I don't agree with it because it's just ignorant suits trying to to shut dumb people complaining about 'black bars' on their 16x9 HDTV's. But an artist like Storaro actively going out of his way to butcher his own work? Madness!

All this talk about the ratio and picture transfer. Isn't anyone bothered by the sound transfer? All I'm getting is mono from the DTS-HD tracks. Wasn't this blown up to 70mm. Shouldn't there be a 6 track mix somewhere?

Yes, there was a 6 track mix.
But like the refusal to release TLE in its OAR, Criterion decided NOT to present TLE in the ultimate BD audio glory an Oscar winner deserves....

All this talk about the ratio and picture transfer. Isn't anyone bothered by the sound transfer? All I'm getting is mono from the DTS-HD tracks. Wasn't this blown up to 70mm. Shouldn't there be a 6 track mix somewhere?

I mentioned the sound as one of my issues, with the AR being my most important.

The LD has Dolby 2.0 PCM sound and IMHO it is better than the Criterion Blu-ray.

Also, I saw it 3 times in 70mm with 6 track magnetic (probably really 4 given the way it was done) at the Northpoint in SFO and really liked the sound there.

No, it's just Storaro. He came up with the kooky "Univisium" theory all on his own.

I've seen clips of Apocalypse Now in its original 2.39:1 scope glory and it looks IMHO much better than the crop and scan monstrosity that this DP has come up with for his older movies.

The Ride of the Valkyries sequence with the helicopters destroying the village is soooo much more epic in 2.39:1.

On ALL V.S. shot movies they should give you two transfers... one in its original glory and one with Storaro's goofy crop and scan version.

Storaro is a nut.

With E.T. and its godawful PC-ified/CGI'd 20th Anniversary Edition... if that revisionist garbage is the ONLY version put on Blu-ray I will keep my DVD of the original 1983 cut, thank you very much.

The ONLY thing I liked about the 20th Anniversary Edition was the replacement of the rod puppets during the bike flying sequences with rotoscoped live stand-ins on real bikes shot on a giant green-screen motion control rig. That was an improvement of real significance. Everything else was a travesty, even the CGI'ing of E.T. The animatronic puppet, though crude by today's puppet wizardry, by Carlo Rambaldi was brilliant and sooo cute.

Apocalypse Now should be 2.35:1. The 'Scope ratio was changed from 2.35:1 to 2.39:1 in 1982. Apocalypse Now was released in 1979.

I know it's a minor distinction, but with the technical nature of this discussion, I think it's valuable to be precise.

True, true... though if you transfered it at 2.35:1 you may run into viewable frame splice anomalies, which is why they switched to 2.39:1. It just crops a tiny bit of the top and bottom to hide such errors.

I thought I remembered reading that 2.35:1 was a shooting ratio and 2.39:1 was for projection.

Before 1982, 'Scope productions were shot with a 2.35:1-ratio matte box on the camera. Some theatres would project them with a slightly reduced image height to cover visible splice artifacts. In 1982, the ratio was more officially changed and the industry re-standardized around a 2.39:1-ratio matte box on the cameras and projection at the same ratio.

[quote=Dan Hitchman;15666085]...With E.T. and its godawful PC-ified/CGI'd 20th Anniversary Edition... if that revisionist garbage is the ONLY version put on Blu-ray I will keep my DVD of the original 1983 cut, thank you very much...
QUOTE]