They weren’t kidding with the title of this episode. Ordinary, basic, boring episode.

I don’t believe Esther is the first witch. She’s called the Original witch because she was part of the Original vampires’ family. I think that’s why they had the Black witch there. To show witchcraft did not originate with Esther (or the Black witch). They were not related (I know people will be saying they were). The show just told it in a lazy way.

So these people are saying all of the Native Americans were werewolves?

The show just acknowledged that it prioritizes the super special Salvatore relationship over Elena. Lovely.

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266 thoughts on “They weren’t kidding with the title of this episode. Ordinary, basic, boring episode.”

This episode was the most…who was it supposed to make us care about? Because it wasn’t Klaus. He was rejected in every way by his parents and they chose not to really show that. It wasn’t the Originals because the writers gave up on the Elijah/Klaus brotherhood and then trashed the Rebekah/Klaus. I don’t know. It didn’t add anything to that family. Plus, while I believe that Klaus is stupid I can’t see him confessing to his crimes in drawings. To what end were they even carving their names onto that wall anyway?

I’m not even sure if they were saying all Native Americans were werewolves or they attacked the Originals so much as this accident happened and then Mikael and Esther responded to it in horrifying ways. I don’t understand how Klaus could have lied when Rebekah and Elijah were there.

I’m trying to think of things I liked about the episode and the only thing I can think of, at the moment, was how Stefan reacted when he was still trapped in the chair. I though that Paul Wesley played that scene well and despite being bound in the chair he managed to convey body language similar to his body language during the blood!arc.

The…I don’t even know how to describe it…lamest?….noneffective?….thing they did was basically make these flashbacks from Rebekah’s point of view. Those flashbacks should have been told by Klaus. Or better, by Elijah.

I have no idea. The cave was pointless. They learned nothing new. This entire episode was pointless and it was just to reveal that Mikael is Klaus’ father. After watching this episode, I’m of the opinion that an origin story for vampires was not necessary.

Yeah they’ve gotten rid of all of the relationships, Elijah/Klaus and Rebekah/Klaus.

Rebekah said Ayanna told her mother of a land where the people never got sick and they ran fast as the wind or whatever. It seemed like they were talking about Native Americans/werewolves. Of course it’s impossible that all the Native Americans were werewolves, but this show’s dialogue fucking sucks and they never think anything of generalizing/erasing poc narratives. See: the Black Founders.

I need to rewatch to catch that Stefan scene, but my favorite thing was seeing Elijah. I’m kind of shipping him and Bonnie now.

Hey Susan, I don’t mean to tear away another layer of your anonymity/privacy… but I think I know who you are on TWOP (now I sound like a crazy stalker :P) and I LOVE your posts there. I’m just a lurker over there but have been tempted to register to tell you I love the way you question and analyze and mock the show. 🙂 But now I can tell you here. So… you rock!

And (if I’m right about your secret identity) thanks for posting a link at TWOP, to this website… This place is better than any “snarky recap” site I’ve found. They tend to go to easy on TVD, in my opinion… maybe ’cause they know Julie Plec is reading them. 😛 But I know you guys will never sell out for an “exclusive interview”. 😉

Hey Susan, I don’t mean to tear away another layer of your anonymity/privacy… but I think I know who you are on TWOP (now I sound like a crazy stalker 😛 ) and I LOVE your posts there. I’m just a lurker over there but have been tempted to register to tell you I love the way you question and analyze and mock the show.

Yeah, I suck at this internet stuff. First, I used a username at TWOP that everyone in my rl knows and then I directly connected it to here (I mentioned my username in another post’s comment section) and now this. Honestly, by this point, I was like, fuck it. At least, I figured it out somewhat for the other sites I frequent. Unfortunately, anyone who looks me up online will think that I spend 100% of my time thinking about TVD when in reality, it is only about 80% Lol.

We definitely needed Elijah or Klaus’s perspective because the suggestion in “Klaus” was that Elijah stuck by Klaus despite their family, including Rebekah, so we should have gotten a sense of why and what their relationship was. In “The End of the Affair” the suggestion was made that Rebekah chose their father and the rest of the family and then caught on. “Klaus” also suggested that Klaus left the rest of the family alone until Elijah betrayed him. This episode should have been about reestablishing the Eijah/Klaus brotherhood and actually establishing the Rebekah/Klaus one, in real terms, because Klaus has repeatedly suggested that he is, in part, searching for a brother and that losing/driving Elijah away was something that hurt him. I don’t know. I want Rebekah to have a place in the storyline, but I really don’t get what the writers are trying to do with the Originals.

The cave was unnecessary. Rebekah could have just told Stefan what was up and then they would have had Damon overhear it or whatever. I don’t even know. There was no sense to it.

The dialogue on this show makes me want to cry it’s so horrible.

I wanted more Elijah in the episode. Instead of just the small moments that he got. “Klaus” gave me the impression that Klaus was closest to Elijah. This episode gave me the impression that the writers just don’t care.

Me neither. I guess Mikael doesn’t like wacky swordplay that removes belts? It’s so undignified! Yeah, Mikael just doesn’t appreciate Klaus’ low-brow sense of humour. 😉 Maybe we’ll get a flashback of Mikael ripping the hearts out of The Three Stooges?

Lmao!!! I mean really, they couldn’t have shown us where Elijah got his thing for keeping his word, and that old-world nobility and all that? He’s just naturally the better one? I wish they had shown that keeping their word was something the family cherished.

I bet we will get more of this fanfiction crap because their ratings keep increasing. They will completely ignore the fact that they don’t have much competition for the kind of audience they are after in their time slot. ABC’s Charlie’s Angels is their only real competition as far as I can see and that show is very new and sucks beyond the telling of it. I bet they wouldn’t be getting these ratings if they were up against Grey’s Anatomy.

I honestly don’t know why the ratings are going up. Ghost World was good so Ordinary People benefitted from that, and of course this week is the mid-season finale, so people might tune in. I don’t know.

. Plus, while I believe that Klaus is stupid I can’t see him confessing to his crimes in drawings. To what end were they even carving their names onto that wall anyway?

I don’t know why they were carving their names. Maybe just idle fun. As for the story, I am going to throw out a wild guess and say Ayanna. The cave wasn’t someone’s home so I am guessing a spell is keeping the vampires out.

And you know what? The only reason that vampires can’t enter the cave is to make the plot work. To give a reason why Rebekah and her siblings didn’t see the drawing that exposes Klaus as their mother’s murderer. (The plot still doesn’t make any sense, though.)

Oh fucking hell. So the werewolves were Native Americans. I haven’t even watched the ep and I am raging. Remember how I kept harping on how werewolves were being marginalized in the story? Well, it wasn’t because they were fucking *werewolves*. It wasn’t because they are fictional/mythical creatures. Remember how I thought that they were going to do this in the spec post comment section? Those two things were connected. I imagined the worst thing they could possibly do and they actually did it.

Thanks. Just watched most of it. It wasn’t as bad as it seemed and the vampires were the bad guys. I love how the show keeps telling us that the vampires are the worst things EVER and yet expect us to sympathize with them.

It was all their father’s pride. He was the one who wanted them to be faster, stronger, superior (like some “vampire” supremacist) etc. They couldn’t help but dominate everyone. Wah Wah. Jeez! Where is a legit vampire slayer when you need one? Buffy, where art thou?

I don’t even want to watch this show anymore. Bonnie Bennett why are you a character on the worst show ever?
This was the most useless,most pointless,not needed episode ever made and that’s saying a lot.
They just don’t care anymore they’re just doing shit. Just crap Bonnie Bennett.

Ugh! Why are they acting like Mikael being Klaus’ father or step-father is the most shocking thing ever? It is like when they had Elijah say “O. M. G” when he announced that Klaus was his brother. What is even going on? They don’t respect the audience AT ALL.

They believe “twists” are bout musical cues and having the actors give looks of confusion instead of weaving a story together in a way that it works as is, but can also be pulled apart by something that is both plausible and not obvious.

They don’t think *we’re* smart? Oh, the irony. Time for the viewers to deliver a “shocking twist” to the writers… we don’t have a high opinion of them either! 😮 😛

Yeah, I’ve been feeling like the people who create this show (and The Secret Circle) have contempt for the viewers. Why are they letting “success” go to their heads? I mean, they’re successful by *CW* standards, but that’s not saying much. I don’t understand why they’re so smug and lazy.

So they pretty much negated everything we learned in “Klaus” and not in the sun/moon curse way. They just forgot what they previously wrote.
I thought Elijah said that the sun didn’t effect them and now it does, and they have rings.
Elijah implied there was more than one witch that put the curse on Klaus.
I love how we didn’t met any of the other siblings and now I really don’t want too.
Klaus and Rebeka are annoying I just don’t care. What’s the point of this storyline and of anything that has happened this season there doesn’t seem to be one.
I didn’t care about the Salvatore brothers.
Bonnie and Alaric had a really nice scene.
I still don’t feel like Klaus just needs a hug sorry JP.
On a shallow note Elijah is really good looking, and Klaus looked horrible in the flashbacks.
What the hell was that with Elena and Damon in the bed.

I thought Elijah said that the sun didn’t effect them and now it does, and they have rings.
Elijah implied there was more than one witch that put the curse on Klaus.

They’re starting to forget the things that happened in s2. The things that happened at the end of s2. They just don’t care. We’re just meant to follow wherever they lead. I’ve never watched a show so careless with it’s own canon.

In my head!cannon, the Originals were never in America, their mother was not a witch, they got cursed out of malice, etc. Like I completely reject this backstory. I’m sticking with Elijah’s version. He’s the smartest one of his family, tbh, even with his judgment issues.

I love how we didn’t met any of the other siblings and now I really don’t want too.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I remember Elijah telling Elena that his mother bore 7 children. One died in Europe. One was killed by a werewolf. Elijah, Rebekah and Klaus make 5. There should be 2 more. I am sure they will be revealed in a OMFG!Twist

Klaus and Rebeka are annoying I just don’t care. What’s the point of this storyline and of anything that has happened this season there doesn’t seem to be one.

I don’t know what the point of most of the previous eps is either. Honestly, this should have come earlier in the season. I did like that they faked us out on the woobification. Oh you think Klaus is the ultimate woobie? Do you? It is actually Rebekah? Haha! Well, at least, this show finally has a female woobie

I remember Elijah telling Elena that his mother bore 7 children. One died in Europe. One was killed by a werewolf. Elijah, Rebekah and Klaus make 5. There should be 2 more.

Didn’t they show Klaus travelling around with more than 4 coffins? And lol at Elijah saying that Klaus took down all of his siblings one by one. He only stabbed 3 ppl (and then Elijah in the S2 finale). When Elijah said that it sounded much more dramatic.

Still, Klaus was much more effective at hunting down his siblings than Mikael at hunting down Klaus.

And I’m sure there’ll be 5 of them because the writers will forget two already died.

Oh you think Klaus is the ultimate woobie? Do you? It is actually Rebekah? Haha!

That’s pretty nice. But you know what? I feel like Rebekah’s immediate switch in alliances kind of makes no sense. Come on now, it’s been 1000 years, and she’s going to want to avenge her mother? She’s just going to turn against Klaus just like that? I feel like the anger is too quick and maybe it shouldn’t even exist, almost. She should at least wake Elijah first or something. I don’t know, I guess I just don’t care for the fact that this is what’s putting Rebekah on Team Elena. Maybe it’s because she was so vehement about family loyalty and putting up with Klaus despite him apparently continuously killing her.

Are we sure that Rebekah is going to switch alliances that easily? Elena thought so but that is no guarantee, right? I would think that she will confront Klaus or her father will talk to her in the next ep or something. .

Since when have the producers had one of the big three make a wrong assumption? If Elena says Rebekah is just a girl who loves recklessly, then that’s what she is. Ugh. Also, the synopsis says Rebekah will confide in Elena and Elena will start having doubts or something. And that will probably convince Rebekah of her good heart or something. Although….no matter how much she may now hate Klaus, she still shouldn’t want them to wake Mikael.

Is Mikael a vampire hunter or is he hunting Klaus? Because I don’t see why it’s taken him so long to track his own, pretty stupid if we’re being honest, son.

I can’t stand the Salvatores together. I’m pretty sure I didn’t have this problem in s1, but for at least this season I can’t stand to watch them interact with each other. Or to hear people talk about their relationship.

Is Mikael a vampire hunter or is he hunting Klaus? Because I don’t see why it’s taken him so long to track his own, pretty stupid if we’re being honest, son.

I think Mikael is a vampire-vampire who is hunting Klaus. He is a danger to vampires because he eats them. I don’t know how stupid Mikael is when you compare him to other characters on this show. For example, Katherine managed to elude Klaus for 500yrs. What I am finding stupid is why Klaus doesn’t just turn around and murder Mikael. Klaus could suck the Salvatores dry and face his father. He is a Hybrid now. He might even be stronger than his father without any vampire blood (if it even does anything). I guess we are supposed to buy that he is frozen at the age he died at (sort of) and is still irrationally afraid of his father.

I can’t stand the Salvatores together. I’m pretty sure I didn’t have this problem in s1, but for at least this season I can’t stand to watch them interact with each other. Or to hear people talk about their relationship.

Their relationship either makes no sense or is OTT. The problems with the rest of the show is magnified in their relationship.

I meant the problems the show has in writing relationships is magnified with the Salvatores. Kind of like I think the problem the show has in writing coherent plot is magnified with Bonnie because she is so instrumental in all the major arcs on the show.

From what I gather, he’s just hunting Klaus. I guess the only reason they made us think that he is a vampire hunter was to make this twist about him being actually Klaus’ father work. Which is kind of funny since everybody and their dog was speculating that he is the Original father.

Yeah, he’s even more incompetent than his son which is kind of magical, if you ask me.

When I was watching this episode I realized this vampires don’t behave as if they have been living for thousands of years(Rebeka,Klaus) or over a hundred years (Stefan,Damon). They’re just all so dumb and clueless I don’t know how you live in the world this long and still know nothing and behave worse than the actual teenage characters I don’t get it. I know Rebeka has been asleep for ninety yrs but that stills gives her nine hundred yrs so why is she such a child I just want them to act older I don’t know be smarter they should be smarter.
Elijah had an aura about him I could believe he had been around for thousands of yrs. Even Katherine in the beginning.

When I was watching this episode I realized this vampires don’t behave as if they have been living for thousands of years(Rebeka,Klaus) or over a hundred years (Stefan,Damon).

My head!cannon is that they are stuck at the maturity level they were at when they died. They don’t change much after they die (except for the traits they get from vampirism) or if they do, it is a much much longer process. Yeah, I have to make something up because Rebekah giving a damn about Homecoming was just too much.

Me too! I’m so irritated by these ancient vampires caring about juvenile things like cheerleading or homecoming. I don’t *want* them to be stuck at the maturity level of the age they died… It just rankles. People learn from their experiences and get wiser the longer they’re on this planet. A vampire should have so much accumulated experience/wisdom… but I know that would make it even more implausible when they “fall in love” with teenage humans. 😛 But since when does the show care about being plausible anyway?! Sheesh.

The fact that Rebekah falls for Elena’s childish “mind games” (god I hated Elena’s self-congratulatory smirk) is ridiculous. Rebekah should be the master of manipulation instead. Elena getting the best of *anyone*, intellectually, is a laugh, of course.

Did you hear when she said she doesn’t know what Elena’s plan is or what she wants from her? Even after Elena kept saying she wanted to know what they were doing in Mystic Falls?

Elena needing to be convinced not to revive Mikael is the dumbest thing.

I also didn’t get Elena’s attitude in this episode. She was so…confident? Sure of herself? And I have no idea where that comes from. That’s not a trait that’s there from episode to episode. Is this part of them getting her ready to be with Damon?

I think the writers were trying to clumsily address viewer complaints about Elena’s stupidity. Which also accounts for the joke Stefan made about her plans never working out… haw! Shout-out! But then Elena proves him wrong in the very same ep, thus also proving *us* wrong. And now the writers high-five themselves ’cause they sure showed us, didn’t they? We’ll never question their geeeenius again. 😉

But then Elena proves him wrong in the very same ep, thus also proving *us* wrong. And now the writers high-five themselves ’cause they sure showed us, didn’t they? We’ll never question their geeeenius again. 😉

OMG! LOL. I love this. This is exactly what was happening with that. How did I miss this comment earlier?

I didn’t see it this way because, to me, everyone’s plans don’t work on this show. It isn’t just Elena’s. Everyone is dumb most of the time. For example, Damon tried to trick Jules which ended in her murdering Rose. There was also the moonstone incident. And who can forget how his murdering Mason led to Katherine stabbing Jenna. God! Season 2 was the Stupid Damon season. Also, remember when Stefan stopped Bonnie from going after Klaus to save Jenna? He really thought that the guy who killed Jenna just for shits and giggles would be willing to make a deal with him. There is also his complete failure as a negotiator.

Bonnie didn’t go with her own plan and kept listening to other people for no reason. These writers make everyone dumb so I didn’t fully get that meta because it didn’t really work within the show for me. To me, Elena just has had more opportunities to be dumb because she is the centre of everything. I wish the writers would stop talking to the fans through the show so much. I wish they would worry more about what makes sense for the characters.

Thanks Susan 🙂 You’re so right…all the characters’ plans fail. It’s harder for me to root for/care about such consistently stupid characters. I mean, I understand there have to be complications and things can’t be too easy…but does *anything* ever really go right for “our heroes”? Maybe this is just my personal loathing of the Dark & Edgy trope, talking, but …where’s the hard-earned moment of triumph where they defeat “the bad guys” and maybe save someone’s life for a change?

Somewhat off-topic digression:
I still can’t believe poor clueless innocent Jenna died, and so passively. But I’m supposed to get excited over Caroline “saving” her intolerant torturer father from Damon…who wasn’t gonna kill him anyway? Lame. And of course more male characters get saved or get to die heroically, while women are just victims. *Another* intolerant asshole (and murderer) Uncle John gets a better send-off than Jenna too?! I never forgave him for killing Anna, or forgave the writers for giving *her* such an inglorious, passive death where she begs and pleads instead of fighting back. Sorry, but there’s a horrible pattern of this on the show and it makes me MAD!!!!!!

And now back to the regularly scheduled rant:
Part of the problem is they keep defanging (so to speak) “the bad guys”, downplaying their past crimes, and creating a new character who’s supposedly even more Evol. Damon’s more of a psycho vampire than Stefan (except when maybe RipperStefan’s worse than Damon?) Katherine’s “worse” though, ’cause she hurt and manipulated the Salvatore bros. (Boo hoo) But Katherine’s scared of Klaus, so *he’s* worse. No, wait…Klaus is scared of Mikael…the worst of all! For now. Aaargghh…I don’t care…I will *never* forgive Klaus…for Jenna *alone*. Even if the writers expect us to feel sorry for him, and probably accept him as a hunky love interest for someone in the future. 😛

“I wish they would worry more about what makes sense for the characters.” Amen! The writers seem to believe we’ll be satisfied with superficial acknowledgments/meta, instead of really addressing major issues & flaws in their writing. Glad you mentioned Stefan’s failure as a negotiator! Are the writers even aware of this, or do they not think about it, beyond believing they’re making him “cooler” every time they have him rough someone up and threaten them (Tyler, Uncle John, etc)…nevermind how it contradicts the image he has of himself/Elena has of him? I don’t recall any follow-up to these scenes…like Elena never found out how Stefan threatened her biological dad so…I’m gonna go with…the writers aren’t deliberately setting up character revelation and consequences? But it’s so easy to interpret Stefan’s character as a delusional construct, and/or manipulative sociopath instead of a “Nice Guy Who Cares About Others Sooooo Much”. It’s kind of hilarious how much of a disconnect there is between the story the writers think they’re telling, and what we actually see.

like Elena never found out how Stefan threatened her biological dad so

Actually, Elena knew and approved of Stefan’s threat…I’ve never really understood why. I think it was supposed to be an example of them being a power couple. So instead of having the scene say something about where Stefan was (I totally thought the show was going to bring up the blood!arc again and basically reveal that Stefan was finding shortcuts to violence) in that moment or where Elena was in that moment (he just threatened to kill her biological dad who she could have died trying to save; what does Katherine being back mean to her and why would she attack John; whether Stefan cares or not, Elena should care), it became about Stelena and never went anywhere.

Like, I understood why Stefan would make the threat and him being an awful negotiator is something I think is a huge part of his character and is in line with him making that threat, but on a better show the other characters would acknowledge that instead of constantly depending on him to negotiate. Dude is thirty seconds away from threatening people most of the time. But yeah, the writers don’t acknowledge any of this because they’re afraid to pin the Salvatores in a bad light. They have no idea, because they are bad writers, that their constant need to make the Salvatores look good makes them look worse. And there in lies two of my hugest problems with the show 1) the characters rarely acknowledge each other’s bad traits openly or even privately and 2) nothing ever comes back in a real way, no one ever suggests that someone else makes a plan and recalls history or throws history in someone else’s face, and so on.

Part of the problem is they keep defanging (so to speak) “the bad guys”, downplaying their past crimes, and creating a new character who’s supposedly even more Evol.

What sucks is, I do not have a problem with learning what shaped a bad guy. I think Katherine is very important when it comes to the type of vampire Damon is and she could be important to understanding what kind of mind Stefan has (or even the effects of compulsion or his hatred of her, which she deserves, but he never gets to articulate what that means to him other than saying “she compelled everything”) or what attracted her in the first place which would explain so much about her and her motivations when she arrived in Mystic Falls. Why not her own home, but the Salvatores?

And Klaus explains quite a bit about Katherine. He explains slightly more than Elijah does, but the flashbacks in “Katherine” worked better than the flashbacks in “Ordinary People” simply because what wasn’t show wasn’t integral to the story. Not seeing who wanted Katherine dead was just as effective as simply seeing Elijah and the other footman hunt for her. It was effective story telling because it presented us with the question “who could be leading Elijah?” Her fear was pretty real. Even the flashbacks in “Klaus” work better than the flashbacks in “Ordinary People” we don’t get to see Klaus do anything violent except threaten his brother and creep Katherine out but the writers had more of a sense of his age and his drive in those scenes than they seem to now. He was threatening because we didn’t see what he was capable of but it followed him around in the form of Elijah’s loyalty, Katherine’s growing concern, and the blood on his cuff after he went out jaunting or whatever he did. I wish the writers had given us more of a sense of Katherine being trapped in that world, but what they did was much better than what they managed to do in “Ordinary People.”

Because they wanted Mikael to inform Klaus’s character and he just came across as an overbearing father. Klaus didn’t even rebel against him. He was just randomly cruel to him. Yet, he still wanted all his children to live forever. I don’t know. The way I see it, with the exception of killing all of his children, Mikael has proven no worse a father than Bill Forbes, of Papa Salvatore, or Mayor Lockwood, or the absent Mr. Donovan, or even Bonnie’s father who is simply on this list because he does not seem to be aware of what is going on in Bonnie’s life. So Klaus gets no explanation.

So I have no problem with effective storytelling that gives us history on the people or events that shaped the nature of a villain, but the writers 1) often do not get the effective storytelling right, 2) fail to explore the story whether they get it right or not, and 3) use backstory as a shortcut for character development and fail to let the villains live up to their pasts, either as villains or potential reformed folk. Worse yet, they keep them around without a true reformation/villainy and proceed to have them chew scenery. Katherine is motivated by self-preservation but she insist on helping these fools remain fools and stays in town and flirts with two men who don’t want her and/or can’t admit they want her. Why? Klaus is interested in Homecoming? Stefan never tried to orchestrate his death while he was “oh so trapped” nor did he decide to bounce when he lost his conscious. Which he couldn’t do, but whatever his storyline isn’t about him it is about Stelena which NO. Mikael has apparently been waiting a 1000 years to hand a stake to a human to kill his son. Rebekah is totally fine with Klaus killing her and can only collapse in tears when she discovers he killed her mother. Is Damon meant for redemption or does want to keep killing? What drives them? What do they even know about life or love or death after having been alive so long?

Nearly all of these characters are introduced with some gravitas, with some sense that they have been around and the world and humans bore them a little, but that is slowly drained away by inconsistent writing and a need to make them human, but human in the most boring and basic way imaginable. Human as a substitute for “good.” When none of these characters need to be “good” to be compelling and would actually fare better if the show let go of its black and white worldview (the most twisted black and white worldview I have ever seen on television) and let them go. I could go on and on about how the writers ruin the villains by making them present for 6 episode stretches for no reason other than to show them chilling, without goals apparently, while having no one discuss a need to take them out.

1) the characters rarely acknowledge each other’s bad traits openly or even privately and 2) nothing ever comes back in a real way, no one ever suggests that someone else makes a plan and recalls history or throws history in someone else’s face, and so on.

You don’t know how much I wish these characters talked about/complained behind each other’s backs. We got that with Caroline ranting about Elena in season 1, but that was supposed to be her being “a bitch,” and of course we still have Damon’s stupid comments about how Stefan is boring, lame, and pious or whatever.

This morning I felt like tweeting Julie and asking if we’d ever get to watch a character who is not Elena learn about history.

I agree about Klaus vs. Ordinary People. And this is coming from someone who thought Klaus was boring as hell and further defanged Katherine. I wonder which upcoming flashback episode will make Ordinary People look like a masterpiece? I shudder to think.

Mikael has apparently been waiting a 1000 years to hand a stake to a human to kill his son.

I can’t, Olu.

Nearly all of these characters are introduced with some gravitas, with some sense that they have been around and the world and humans bore them a little, but that is slowly drained away by inconsistent writing and a need to make them human,

I immediately thought of Damon. Remember when he saw humans as nothing more than things to amuse him? That spoke of his age, and he was only one hundred something years old! Stefan in the beginning seemed to view humans as these fragile things (going with the Stefan the show wanted to construct), and Elijah would rather be violent against vampires than against humans. My Fandom friend talked about how Elijah is a man of stories and histories and that type of thing interests him (like his knowledge of the true Founders of Mystic Falls). And Katherine saw everything as a joke, humans were just things that were to be part of her plans. All of those aspects of these characters have slowly been eroded. Elijah might be an exception but that’s because they haven’t woken him up yet. Who knows what they’ll do with him since season 3 is apparently a whole new show. But what do Klaus and Rebekah (and now Mikael) feel about humans? Rebekah is on the cheer squad, but we haven’t seen her interact with or talk about humans. She used the girls to model her clothes, but….so?

You don’t know how much I wish these characters talked about/complained behind each other’s backs. We got that with Caroline ranting about Elena in season 1, but that was supposed to be her being “a bitch,” and of course we still have Damon’s stupid comments about how Stefan is boring, lame, and pious or whatever.

This is annoying because, in Caroline’s case it’s just a way for the writers to give Caroline a fault and ignore Elena’s and in Damon’s case it’s lazy and stupid writing. According to the show, Damon knows for a fact that Stefan isn’t pious. He knows why Stefan attempts to act pious. Yet, there is no hint of that when he makes those comments. There is no hint of history on this show, in the characters’s interactions with each other.

This morning I felt like tweeting Julie and asking if we’d ever get to watch a character who is not Elena learn about history.

If only she would answer you. I’d like to ask her why nearly all the history on the show is oral. Things aren’t written down often or at all in some instances. When things are written down they’re either promptly tossed aside (Stefan murdered a lot of Gilberts! Let’s never check out the Gilbert journals again!) or false (the sun and the moon curse).

But what do Klaus and Rebekah (and now Mikael) feel about humans? Rebekah is on the cheer squad, but we haven’t seen her interact with or talk about humans. She used the girls to model her clothes, but….so?

I actually have no idea what Rebekah thinks of humans. If the flashbacks in The End of the Affair had been stretched out a bit or given some more weight then I would say that younger vampires amuse her, but since we have no clue how she fell in love with Stefan, her falling in love with him screws with that interpretation a bit. Mikael doesn’t seem to think of humans at all. We’ll probably find out why at some point. Or maybe not.

Klaus is, despite the utter lack of care the writers have taken with his character, unimpressed with humans. I think his perspective on them is something of a combination of Mikael’s lack of concern and Stefan’s view of them as both fragile (when Stefan is “good”) and easily manipulated (Stefan at all times if we’re honest) and led.

Elijah would rather be violent against vampires than against humans. My Fandom friend talked about how Elijah is a man of stories and histories and that type of thing interests him (like his knowledge of the true Founders of Mystic Falls).

My Fandom friend talked about how Elijah is a man of stories and histories and that type of thing interests him (like his knowledge of the true Founders of Mystic Falls)

I was thinking of something similar earlier. He seemed interested in how people made up history too (I think) going by his comment about the real founding families of Mystic Falls to Jenna. I was wondering if some of the retcons in this ep come down to Elijah making up stories. Remember how he said that the sun and moon curse was oh so biblical? His story of two waring people was epic or biblical too.

Yeah, he seemed amused at the things people believed. At how they didn’t question what they know. He was amused at Jenna’s belief that the White families founded Mystic Falls, and he was amused at Elena believing in the sun/moon curse.

Yeah, that does sound biblical too. But they’re never going to say that Elijah was making it up. We’re somehow supposed to believe both versions and think they meld, as can be seen by Elena not saying Rebekah’s version doesn’t sound like Elijah’s.

Actually, Elena knew and approved of Stefan’s threat…I’ve never really understood why. I think it was supposed to be an example of them being a power couple. So instead of having the scene say something about where Stefan was (I totally thought the show was going to bring up the blood!arc again and basically reveal that Stefan was finding shortcuts to violence) in that moment or where Elena was in that moment (he just threatened to kill her biological dad who she could have died trying to save; what does Katherine being back mean to her and why would she attack John; whether Stefan cares or not, Elena should care), it became about Stelena and never went anywhere.

I thought Elena got off on that when I first watched it. I really thought this was going to lead to an exploration of why Elena gets off on having the Salvatores in her life. Like she gets off on having these guard dogs and is only frustrated when the guard dogs do unsanctioned (by her) violence. And it was sanctioned in this case because she wanted John out of town. The violence was ok because it was in service of something she wanted. I thought the Stelena blood rehab was going to play into this somehow. She was literally feeding Stefan from her body in an effort to keep him under control. He was dependent on her to maintain the cold/mold/brainwashing/wtvr that someone else imposed on him. It was all very creepy and needed way more screentime imo. This show is obviously just a setup for awesome fanfiction. They introduce these things and don’t go anywhere with them. Elena is feeding Stefan from her body? Let’s forget about it in one or two eps and don’t pay any attention to it.

I agree with all of your points about all the things they do wrong in fleshing out grey/dark characters.

He was dependent on her to maintain the cold/mold/brainwashing/wtvr that someone else imposed on him.

Of course, I didn’t have a clear idea of this at the time (only head!cannon) but it was clear to me that having control over himself was super important to Stefan and Elena became the only mechanism through which he could do this. This meant that she had control over him. How did that make her feel? We will never really know.

I thought the Stelena blood rehab was going to play into this somehow. She was literally feeding Stefan from her body in an effort to keep him under control. He was dependent on her to maintain the cold/mold/brainwashing/wtvr that someone else imposed on him. It was all very creepy and needed way more screentime imo. This show is obviously just a setup for awesome fanfiction. They introduce these things and don’t go anywhere with them. Elena is feeding Stefan from her body? Let’s forget about it in one or two eps and don’t pay any attention to it.

Back before I hated Stelena and was mostly just okay with them, Elena feeding Stefan blood from her body was what almost made me ship them. I though the show was going to delve into how fucked up it was for the both of them, but especially Elena. I liked the idea of her wanting control over him and the idea that Stefan was not okay and heavily dependent on a reason to maintain control, despite not having the reveal of Lexi’s craycray ways. But they never went anywhere with that and the two of them “broke up” soon after and I guess we were meant to believe that she stopped feeding him her blood because it was only ever brought up twice and then quickly dropped.

Like she gets off on having these guard dogs and is only frustrated when the guard dogs do unsanctioned (by her) violence. And it was sanctioned in this case because she wanted John out of town. The violence was ok because it was in service of something she wanted.

This would require the writers to show Elena in a not so positive light and the show only understands positive/negative & black/white. So while the subtext suggests Elena gets off on having the Salvatores under her thumb, it makes her a little too much like Katherine for “Elena is a saint/angel” to work.

Klaus is, despite the utter lack of care the writers have taken with his character, unimpressed with humans. I think his perspective on them is something of a combination of Mikael’s lack of concern and Stefan’s view of them as both fragile (when Stefan is “good”) and easily manipulated (Stefan at all times if we’re honest) and led.

It is not so much Klaus’ attitude towards humans that I find interesting as his attitude towards witches. What do you think is going on there? I don’t think he would ever really threaten a witch or physically harm a witch but seems to expect co-operation from them – like it is the most natural thing in the world that they would help him even without the threat of violence. This is different from Elijah who bargains with witches and from the Salvatores who have to seduce or ingratiate themselves to witches. I don’t know how this fits in with the story that he *murdered* his mother who was a witch. It makes me think that the cave drawings were wrong or Elena read them wrong (which will actually annoy me because, despite her suddenly becoming an expert in this ep, I want the show to let her be right or smart about something)

Actually, this reminds of something. Elijah totally lied to Jonas and Luka. I don’t believe that he really thought that Greta was in danger or a slave. Klaus has a long history with witches and they grew up with Original Witch and Ayanna. We have now seen Klaus interact with three witches – Maddox, Greta and Bonnie. There is nothing in those interactions that would suggest what Elijah was told the Martins. OMG! Elijah is a lying liar who lies.

I’m not sure. He seems to have respect for witches? Or at least an understanding that they are more powerful than he is and are deserving of some reverence or respect. Maybe because of what his mother did to him, but it seems that would cause more resentment or disrespect (especially since he killed her) than anything else. His expectations always seem to read of some prior experience, but we never get to see him initiate contact with a witch except for Bonnie to a small degree. Klaus doesn’t actually threaten violence against witches either.

It’s weird. Maybe if we knew more about the why of vampire/witch relationships we’d get this.

I always figured Elijah was lying about the true extent of Klaus’s control of Greta. Because I always had the impression that Greta (and Maddox) weren’t afraid of disobeying Klaus. That he had won them over through his plan (poor Greta. Poor Maddox) and they were loyal because he was just that good. If they had followed through on Klaus on the idea that his promise/word held meaning because it came almost always without a threat, then maybe. I don’t remember what I was saying. Um, yes, Elijah is lying liar would have worked if Greta was still alive. Because it feels like a dropped plot point now. Did he know whether Greta was a prisoner or not? Did he assume? Or did he use the knowledge that Greta was with Klaus against the Martins? Who knows? It no longer concerns anyone.

The Klaus who kidnaps witches works with the Klaus who’s a recluse, the meanest Original, and who has circles. It even works with the Klaus who killed his mother, like you said. That Klaus could not be woobifie in 5 episodes. All of that Klaus’ senses work. And I also feel that Klaus could not be constantly on our screens as a regular. He works more as a behind the scenes character like you said.

Nope, I’m believing Elijah. Unless someone calls him a liar and tells him the Klaus he spoke of is not the one they’ve been interacting with. But we have Elena in the trailer saying, again, that Klaus is smart.

One thing my friend brought up is how Elijah asked about the Martins, and I think she also said he asked about Luka after Bonnie channeled him, but I can’t remember if Elijah was even in that episode. But anyways, Klaus does have the relationship with witches that you mentioned, where he expects cooperation, but he also has no problem moving on to the next one when Maddox and Greta die or when he thinks Gloria has disappeared.

I don’t think it was Elijah who told the Martins who had taken Greta or what he was like. They seemed to know already and the only thing Elijah was providing them is help in getting her back.

where’s the hard-earned moment of triumph where they defeat “the bad guys” and maybe save someone’s life for a change?

They could’ve given us that with Bonnie back in season 2!!!! Like I ranted in one of the season 2 podcasts, we watched her work for that; we saw her struggle; we saw her fall; we saw her disappointment when channeling Luka wasn’t enough to give her the boost she needed. But then she gets it with the powers of the 100 witches and what does this janky show do? Pull the rug out from under her by making her go with Elena’s plan, dumbing Elijah down so that he actually believes Klaus and saves him, and Bonnie just stands there. Not only that, but she fails and it seems to be no big deal for her. Now Elena wants to kill Klaus, and I’m supposed to hope she succeeds because she trained “so hard” for like 3 episodes? They can get out with that mess. Elena wanting to kill Klaus in order to free Stefan is more cheer-worthy than Bonnie wanting to kill him to save everyone?

The writers seem to believe we’ll be satisfied with superficial acknowledgments/meta, instead of really addressing major issues & flaws in their writing.

Exactly. It’s twice now someone’s addressed the fact that Elena’s plans do not work. Does that mean they’re going to have at least some of her plans work from now on? Who knows?

Youtube has failed me so I can’t say for sure if Elijah asked about Luka post channeling torture or post brain torture but I distinctly remember him asking Jonas about him. I can’t say for sure if it was out of concern or just out of a desire to keep tabs on Luka.

Yep, the only vampires who acted like they had seen a lot were Elijah (with his laid-back, composed demeanor) and Katherine (with her treating everything like it’s a game). I’d also say Stefan in the first half of season 1.

The Klaus who kidnaps witches works with the Klaus who’s a recluse, the meanest Original, and who has circles. It even works with the Klaus who killed his mother, like you said. That Klaus could not be woobifie in 5 episodes. All of that Klaus’ senses work. And I also feel that Klaus could not be constantly on our screens as a regular. He works more as a behind the scenes character like you said.

If they had kept Klaus a recluse then he would have probably been creepier. This control child prince who doesn’t know how to trust people and basically works to get them in his home or whatever. Who uses people as pawns for both work and affection. Who killed his family out of spite towards his brother. It would have made sense not so see him everyday, but when we start connecting sense with The Vampire Diaries headaches and rage occur.

If they wanted to explain the debt that witches can sometimes fall into with vampires and keep Klaus a recluse, they could have made it so Klaus constructs elaborate scenarios where he is able to save a witch’s or a warlock’s life in order to extract a debt from them. That would explain the Martins believing (and possibly being right) about Greta being Klaus’s prisoner (who after a point became a true believer and an ally) without putting into question Elijah’s understanding of the situation.

It would also explain Klaus’s seeming respect as he probably wouldn’t approach a witch or a warlock without creating a prior relationship that, while not protecting him entirely, at least put him on a somewhat equal playing field.

I’m sort of appalled at the idea that the oldest vampires in this universe are ONLY 1000 years old, for one. It’s just ridiculous. And there’s no mystery in this storytelling, no tension, there’s nothing interesting about this re-telling. But then they’re all terminally stupid as well?? Ridiculous.

And agree, is there something in the blood exchange that makes them all just a little less intelligent? Because none of them seem especially mature – Elijah had that for most of his run then he became suddenly stupid in the last two episodes and fell for his treacherous brother’s trick. Which. Surely if they’d “vowed” to stay together for years, he’s studied how Klaus operates long enough to know that he is a lying liar who lies?

Why is the dialogue so heavy handed? I had to pause in the middle of Elena’s speech to Damon at the end. Those Delena scenes were already so difficult for me and now they added ridiculous meta to them.

Yes. I also hated how Elena’s wish to learn to physically defend herself against vampires (which is semi-sensible) is solely used for ‘cute’/’hot’ ‘fight’ scenes with Damon. Nonsensical fight scenes, as Elena could keep going at Damon (at any vampire!) with a stake for years, she would never be able to win the fight. Plus, she fights like an idiot. I know, she’s just a normal teenager and all that .. but seriously!

If this show really cared about a) Elena b) being actually interesting c)relationships that aren’t heterosexual and don’t involve a Salvatore – they would totally have Elena, Bonnie and Caroline training together. And it would be awesome because Bonnie would be fighting with her spells and exploding objects with her mind under a stopwatch, Caroline would spar with Elena, and I’d believe their friendship once again. All of these women have lost something and have something to lose, why doesn’t it make sense for them to seek strength in each other – rather than Elena becoming semi-dependent on another Salvatore.

The only one I liked was Stefan saying Elena’s plans never work. Even though he was all for her plans last season. Even though the producers purposely undermine her plans every chance they get.

I cannot stand the meta in the Delena scene. Nor can I stand Damon’s humanity crap. Really? After three seasons, people are still taunting Damon about his humanity showing? I thought it was already out!!!!

I remember when Bonnie said almost that exact same line in “The Last Dance.” All I could think when Stefan said it is, Bonnie said it better – and it carried more weight. Bonnie had had precious little experience with Damon’s “humanity” and her pointing that out meant something because it showed something important about Damon. Stefan is well aware that Damon’s humanity is still intact, he bleated about it for the first bit of season 2.

(And sometimes I think the belief that Damon had no humanity at all was also one of those stories Stefan used to tell himself at night to make himself feel better and higher in the humanity sweepstakes than his evil brother who “tormented” him all the time. Almost all of Damon’s actions are driven by his ability to feel and feel too much, so unless it’s the mysterious time when he switched off, he’s always been rather “human” to me.)

Anyway, that line was lame and meaningless. And PW’s delivery was also lackluster, they’ve gotta stop with this writing.

Yes, this episode was a boring, nonsensical, offensive mess. But tbh I was much more irritated by the retcons in last week’s ep. Probably because I care about the regular characters way more than about these Originals.

I wouldn’t be surprised that, if the show is renewed for more seasons, the Originals don’t turn out to be the first vampires after all. The writers will just say that these so-called Originals and the younger vampires just thought that they were the first vampires. There will be even older vampires who have kept their existence secret.

The majority of the fandom seems to be really into Mikael/the actor who’s playing him. I don’t get it at all. (No offense to the actor, though, it isn’t as if he had been given much to work with. We were basically just told a bunch of stuff about him (e.g. that he’s so, so proud) but didn’t see it.)

Is there any point to this cheerleader!Rebekah stuff? And I love how the synopsis for this episode stated that she and Elena were having a mean girl power struggle. Lol, what?

Oh, one thing I forgot. They had Elena say that Rebekah “is just a girl who loves recklessly and all consuming”. How did she even come to this conclusion? Because she made this pledge to Klaus about staying together forever? (Which, for me, is maybe the most annoying retcon in this ep. Like, seriously, how can you retcon things that had been established only 5 episodes ago?!)

Really? Ugh! That is even worse. Also, did you notice that Alaric told Elena to just ignore Damon earlier in the ep and that is what enabled the last Delena scene? Alaric is the worst guardian ever. It is not with the use of violence but I feel like these guys are molding Elena.

Earlier last season when Alaric was Damon’s servant basically, I used to think that Damon had compelled him. Alaric kept fetching Damon drinks and that is what a lot of compelled people/subordinate people (Maddox) do on this show.

I don’t know, though. I guess you’re right with the Rebekah/Elena parallel.

Ugh, Alaric. I didn’t pay attention to him in this ep tbh. Wasn’t there a recent interview where JP or Matt Davis said that they will show the consequences of Klaus possessing Alaric’s body? I thought we would see them in this episode.

Wasn’t there a recent interview where JP or Matt Davis said that they will show the consequences of Klaus possessing Alaric’s body?

I guess that’s still to come. Unless Matt Davis was lied to.

Alaric looked so pretentious, hunching over those documents. Since when was he an archeologist/anthropologist? All I could think of was Matt Davis’ interview of Alaric now having a storyline. I was thinking, “This is Alaric being serious because he is no longer held back by Jenna.” Rme.

Elena has universal insight into the human condition apparently and her empathy is an actual mutant power, so I think that was part of it.

But also, I agree, she was talking about herself – she often does that, and sometimes it’s understandable but sometimes it’s really grating and problematic and selfish. Like, why are you reading yourself into this, girl? Sometimes, it’s just not about you.

The majority of the fandom seems to be really into Mikael/the actor who’s playing him. I don’t get it at all. (No offense to the actor, though, it isn’t as if he had been given much to work with. We were basically just told a bunch of stuff about him (e.g. that he’s so, so proud) but didn’t see it.)

Sebastian Roche has been in other sci-fi/fantasy shows with very active fandoms (Fringe, Supernatural) and a soap opera (General Hospital) – the two genres that TVD draws its audience from. If he was on police poceduras, he wouldn’t be getting so much attention. Although, this fandom goes gaga over every single powerful male character so who knows

Is there any point to this cheerleader!Rebekah stuff? And I love how the synopsis for this episode stated that she and Elena were having a mean girl power struggle. Lol, what?

Remember that moment when Rebekah played on Elena’s concern for others with that little runway show? Mean girl! And remember when Elena played on Rebekah’s loneliness by threatening to walk out if she didn’t get more info? Mean girl! Yeah, thank God these girls don’t attend the high school I attended because, Original or not, they would have been eaten alive.

Remember that moment when Rebekah played on Elena’s concern for others with that little runway show? Mean girl! And remember when Elena played on Rebekah’s loneliness by threatening to walk out if she didn’t get more info? Mean girl!

LOL forever. This show! This show!!!

Thanks for the info on the actor playing Mikael. I haven’t seen him in anything before.

Yes, this episode was a boring, nonsensical, offensive mess. But tbh I was much more irritated by the retcons in last week’s ep. Probably because I care about the regular characters way more than about these Originals.

I am getting less and less irritated by the show. I don’t know if it is because things are getting better or if I am losing interest and it is a sign that I will go from OBSESSED one sec to not watching like it has happend with me and other shows in the past

And I love how the synopsis for this episode stated that she and Elena were having a mean girl power struggle. Lol, what?

And that Elena said the words, “mean girl power struggle.” Wtf? Since when does Elena have any kind of power? That conversation was like 50 seconds long.

I would rather rewatch last episode. This episode was one huge retcon and it has me hoping the show does not get renewed.

I liked Mikael in the bar scene. Ignoring that he’s never caught Klaus, he seemed competent and actually threatening. The way the actor played the scene, it had me believing he would kill Damon. You know, if this show was different. As it is, I was just really really hoping he’d do it.

I really don’t even want to do this to myself anymore … But I love you guys and the podcast! BUT! It felt quite nice not having to watch that show yesterday … I feel really good actually.

Come the Hiatus … what? Who’s going to come back to this show. I might as well just wait and do a marathon and if I have nay teeth left over from that (you know from all that teeth grinding) … then there can be a podcast party!

Ok, despite all I wrote below, the ep wasn’t as maddening as the early eps of this season for me. People were mostly where they were supposed to be and things flowed together better. The reason behind why characters were doing what they were doing was explained. Unfortunately, everything was so heavy handed and the story itself was a bit ridiculous. Plus, I don’t understand why the flashback was from Rebekah’s POV unless they are going to do multiple POVs of what happened later. And I still have no idea of Stefan is compelled to keep the switch off or not. Mikael seemed to imply not and that turning the switch on is the loophole of overcoming Klaus’ compulsion (telling Stefan to do what he says). Stefan might have some agency but it is confusing.

It depends. Do you like lots and lots of exposition and the Salvatore brothers’ super special relationship? If so, go ahead and watch it.

Also, keep in mind that while Native Americans were important to the origin story of vampires and hybrids, they were invisible. I suppose, this could lead to a story for Tyler down the line but who knows.

Also, Rebekah is now a bigger woobie than Klaus. On the one hand, I think this is the first legit female woobie of the show. On the other hand, I still don’t care about her. On the third hand, they finally gave her more of a personality. On the fourth hand, that personality is that of an insecure 14 yr old girl.

Klaus killed his mother. That was surprising for me.

Bonnie had two short scenes. In one of them, she had inappropriate chemistry with Alaric. Are they chem testing her with everyone now?

Caroline, Tyler and Matt were missing.

Elijah barely got any lines. He was just a prop

Vikings made it all to the to Virginia with an African lady. Why does every powerful family have some African person working for them? Just wondering

Other highlights or lowlights- Stefan’s crazy, Bonnie’s presence, Alaric continuing to be a creepy uncle (wondering where this is going to lead), Damon has successfully groomed Elena into being comfortable with sharing a bed with him, Elena continuing with her training but with Damon this time, Mikael hurting Damon

So in conclusion, imo don’t watch if this show still has the ability to get on your nerves.

Oh the bright side, maybe Rebekah won’t have to be killed off? We all know that anyone who goes against Elena&TheSalvatores, must die. So if she turns against her brother to work with them… nevermind… Klaus will kill her instead of Damon. Bye Bex!

Susan, you crack me up with: “Damon has successfully groomed Elena into being comfortable with sharing a bed with him” … Now, how could you take such a sweet scene and read dark implications into it? 😉 And wasn’t it cute the way Elena kept tugging at the bedsheets to dislodge him, trying to send Damon a subtle hint, but of course he patiently wore her down with his display of superior strength… as usual. Best. Love Story. Ever!

Now, how could you take such a sweet scene and read dark implications into it? 😉

Cana’s (razycrandomgirl) theory is that he rapes Elena every night and compels her to forget later. Talk about dark implications. Lol. Seriously though, Elena has been reminding me of Andie since the start of the season.

I couldn’t stay up to 2.00 am to wait for TVD(because of the time difference between the UK and America) so i watched it this morning but one little problem was that i forgot that you are Americans and that my 2.00 am is your 8.00 pm and came to this sight before i watched it and it spoilt it for me…..lol……To get to the point i quite liked this episode, and it finally gave me all the answers i was looking for but i have got to say the delena moment in the end was a little to much considering the whole stefan issue.

What is the poing of making Klaus’ mom a witch? What bearing does that have on Klaus, Rebekah, Elijah, Mikael, or even Esther herself? What, what, what?

I’m trying to wrap my mind around the fact that the big cave discovery mystery was solved in one episode. That takes some talent (to waste an episode like that). Smallville spent two, even three seasons discovering the mysteries of the Kawatche caves.

But don’t you see? This means that Klaus has the potential to be a Witch/Vampire/Werewolf Hybrid. Muah ha ha ha! Rebekah said it is impossible for a vampire to be a witch too but the OMFG!Twist will be that a Werewolf/Vampire hybrid can be a witch too! Am I blowing your mind, Alta?

You never know…the writers might just pretend that what rebekah said never happened…like they do with almost everything and when they run out of ideas they will show klaus’s hidden witchy powers. Also why is Klaus scared of Mikael? if Mikael is only an original vamp then he isn’t much of the threat i just think it is the fear of confrontation that Klaus is avoiding

Yeah, they probably reveal that Klaus being a Hybrid now makes him an exemption to the rule, so he can be a warlock too. What’s annoying about them making the Originas a family of witches is that….they didn’t even act like it before they were turned. They acted like they had no powers. Neither Rebekah, or Klaus, or Elijah displayed any powers. Which I’m thankful for because it’s easier to pretend this never happened.

I am also puzzled by what that necklace means…like 2 episodes ago they were all so serious about finding that necklace but after the ghost world they just forgot about it…it doesn’t belong to their mother it belongs to the other witch, so does that mean she is still alive.

What’s annoying about them making the Originas a family of witches is that….they didn’t even act like it before they were turned. They acted like they had no powers. Neither Rebekah, or Klaus, or Elijah displayed any powers. Which I’m thankful for because it’s easier to pretend this never happened.

Here is my CRACKY head!cannon on that – Only Esther was a witch because she was Ayanna’s sister or cousin. She could pass for white like Klaus could/can pass for white (lol). She didn’t pass on the witch gene to all her kids because she married a non-witch and she is a half-witch. The kids with the witch powers got turned before their powers manifested.

I don’t know. First, I thought it was to provide a reason why the mother remained mortal and thus could be killed by Klaus. But I guess he could have killed her with a branch of the white oak tree. Wait .. I guess they wanted her to be the one to bind Klaus’ werewolf side because more drama/it’s all about family.

I’m trying to wrap my mind around the fact that the big cave discovery mystery was solved in one episode.

Yes. This so much. For instance, I thought the twist ‘Mikael killed his wife/No, it was actually Klaus who killed his mother’ wasn’t all that bad. Granted, it certainly wasn’t super clever (far from it!) but it wasn’t awful either. It could have been played out better. It’s very hard to care about this twist when Person A tells you version 1 and only 10 minutes later Person B says “Wait, it’s actually version 2”. Zero suspense.

Just be happy that Esther being a witch means we can’t blame the beautiful Ayanna for kowtowing to a family of fools and ACTUALLY blighting the world with vampires forever. I was so scared she was going to cave and obey Mikael and Esther. I like that she was just, “Nah, this is stupid and wrong, bye.”

I bet she ended up having to clean up that hot mess, making contingency after contingency to curb vampires. She’ll never get credit for it though.

I’m really confused about why I should pity half of these people. Like, Esther you HAD a choice. You didn’t have to do this. And yet you did – all because your son was stupid enough to get mauled by a wolf, on THEIR land! Ridiculous.

Maddox was more fierce than Esther tbh. I think she’s the least interesting witch or warlock we’ve had so far. She’s even messing up in the afterlife because…what’s the big idea in wedging the door wide open in order to let the ghosts come out last episode?

I agree. The magical daggers don’t work on Klaus even though they are covered in ash from that tree because they are made from silver. The ash hurts him but his werewolf side helps him heal when it comes in contact with the silver. So the wood hurts him and the silver heals him. I am assuming that the wood from that special tree would still kill him if there is no silver involved. It is still magic related because it is a consequence of the spell that transformed him into a vampire.

So let me get this straight the stake can kill a vampire but can it kill a hybrid?…and when did Mikael find out that Klaus turned to a hybrid, i thought he was dead ‘ish’ when Klaus turned to a hybrid, they should have really shown a vulnerable side to Mikael finding out that Klaus has become a hybrid that would have been more reasonable.

Elijah said the only reason Klaus is able to recover from the magical daggers is that they are made of silver. So yes, I think the stake from that white oak tree can kill Klaus.

Rebekah said they all found out about Klaus’ werewolf half after he killed for the first time. This was after Mikael turned them all into vampires so they were all killing by that point. This triggered his werewolf side. Later, his mom put the curse on him to suppress his werewolf side because Mikael found out about her infidelity and was ashamed of having a werewolf son. So Klaus was a Hybrid soon after Mikael turned him. It was suppressed by his mom’s spell until the ritual last season.

Btw, are they telling me that all the “peaceful” werewolf neighbors killed someone? Wow. I guess they weren’t so peaceful after all. Lol. I wonder why Rebekah thought so.

Ohhh, I’d forgotten that little contingency. I thoroughly expect this to be retconned soon. Because all these loopholes in killing Klaus are hard to keep track of – if we, the audience can’t, I don’t expect the writers who forget their own canon from week-to-week to even remember what they said.

And the worst thing ever is to make an unkillable villain-cum-woobie and still expect us to care about him. There are so few stakes.

You know i just realized that Rebekah said “the witch must really have hated you”(something like that) in the episode where Klaus found out Elena is the key to the hybrids…does that mean his mother hated him thus the reason he killed her.

Wtf? Oh my God, do JP and KW preview the scripts to make sure they’re telling the same story? This episode tells us that Rebekah knows it was their mom who cursed him, so how come it sounded in Smells Like Teen Spirit like it was just some witch who had no relation to him?

It’s incredibly sad considering she had a mini-breakdown at the end of the episode over her mother dying at Klaus’s hands and only a few episodes earlier she was calling her mother “The witch”. The writers are awful. There’s no supervision. We are literally watching a slightly different show every week in order for the plot, which is awful, to work and to surprise us.

And you would think that Klaus or Elijah would have mentioned that it was their mother who cursed Klaus. But the writers came up with that fifteen seconds before they started shooting the episode.

It’s incredibly sad considering she had a mini-breakdown at the end of the episode over her mother dying at Klaus’s hands and only a few episodes earlier she was calling her mother “The witch”.

I think this is like when they had Carol and Bill act like he didn’t know Caroline until the “twist”. Also, I don’t remember Rebekah referring to the OW as “the witch”. I thought she simply said that “she” was still screwing with Klaus from beyond the grave. It is still pretty bad though. The writers will sacrifice anything for a “twist”.

Why don’t they have a series bible to prevent continuity errors? Lazy so-and-sos. More evidence that they just don’t care and underestimate their viewers. I feel sorry for everyone who buys dvds, rewatches the eps all in a row, which’ll make the contradictions even more apparent… and then realizes they wasted their time and money. Don’t buy the dvds people! Although the resulting disillusionment is a painful necessity… TPTB just get more money for doing crappy work. They’re overpaid as it is. 😛

I love how everyone Stefan loves is taking turns kicking the crap out of him. Elena did it in the ep before last. Lexi did it in the last ep and now Damon did it. They all did it while telling him that they care about him. How creepy is that?

It’s weird that, in the last two episodes, a lot of information about Stefan has come to light that should, for intents and purposes woobify him more than the previous tears in the parking lot hold onto my love moment from the premiere. His best friend tortured him into the version of a friend she would want before she even knew him. His girlfriend plans on doing the same, more or less. And his brother literally hates admitting any affection towards him to the point where he’ll become physically violent.

Stefan shouldn’t be a woobie (I’d hate all these developments more if we were meant to feel sorry for him), but all the perspective that these developments can shed on his character are being lost in the idea that was has happened to him is right. We’re meant to cheer for Lexi and Elena and Damon and ignore the fact that Lexi’s methods invalidate her friendship with Stefan and invalidate the “Stefan” that we know. But we’re supposed to cheer for that Stefan to be brought back, once again, against his will and to the benefit of Elena and their love.

If torturing Stefan was about saving other people’s lives then Lexi or someone should have killed him by now, but they haven’t because what they care about is having Stefan be their friend/boyfriend/good guy/whatever. Maybe he releases a pheromone.

but all the perspective that these developments can shed on his character are being lost in the idea that was has happened to him is right. We’re meant to cheer for Lexi and Elena and Damon and ignore the fact that Lexi’s methods invalidate her friendship with Stefan and invalidate the “Stefan” that we know. But we’re supposed to cheer for that Stefan to be brought back, once again, against his will and to the benefit of Elena and their love.

Just so that I can hold on to what little sanity I have left, is it ok if we pretend this is not the case and interpret this stuff our way? I reject their reality.

Damon and Elena should stop being ‘literary romantic’…i mean they are acting like Stefan is dead or something…if Stefan was back to his old self they wouldn’t be sleeping in the same bed with there faces only an inch away from kissing….have the writers forgotten about Stefan and his ‘tinsy winsy’ jealousy of delena.
if they are going to make delena happen they should do something about stefan and Elena’s relationship which allows Damon and Elena to be flirty because she is really starting to look like Katherine to me.

Going into next week, we’re going to be on episode 9 and when the show returns from hiatus we’ll be on episode 10. How long are they going to drag out Mikael’s storyline in order to make the back half (12 to 13 episodes) of the season work. Unless he’s not the villain the writers have been talking about.

Ugh, I wish Mikael hadn’t been the Original Father and had instead been the tip of the iceberg of the coven/collective of witches and warlocks that have been working to get rid of the Originals from the start. Not so much that the coven would be made up of white people, but of people effected by the plague of vampires.

I thought we were going to find out that vampires existed, through the work of witches and if Klaus’s mother was involved in anyway, it was so the truth about what Klaus was would not come to light, and the spell that changed him went horribly wrong leading to 1) him turning his family and 2) the creation of the bond that can apparently form between vampires and witches (that is something I don’t even want an explanation of because it will probably end up being something stupid about unicorn trying to cross the road under a new moon while birds flew across the sky) 3) the trigger for Klaus’s actual curse, with the witch or witches who tried to suppress his werewolf side, realizing that his existence was a threat, not simply because he was this new thing that they’d unintentionally created, but because he could be both.

Or they could have avoided naming the Originals the Originals and just made them pretty old and made Klaus a hybrid with a goal beyond becoming a hybrid. Especially if, they set it up in a way where Klaus never truly felt a part of his family and his mother’s attempts to destroy his difference, not only through suppression, but with death, and his attempts to break the curse was an attempt not to be both but to become a werewolf, to reconnect with a part of him that could remind him of life. Nevermind, I’m losing it and this show has never been that smart.

The show should have never explained the origins of vampires because they can barely agree on the biology of vampires or the powers of vampires, so explaining the origins are out of their league.

Question:

1. So who put the curse on Klaus? Who is the original doppelganger? Klaus’s mom? How? Are Elena and Katherine supposed to be related to the Originals? I don’t get it.

2. It just occurred to me that the story of the Originals was drawn on those walls in Native American drawings (cause the Native Americans are just like Africans, a collective), but why would they give any shits about the Originals? Who drew those damn pictures is what I want to know. Who had reason to be invested in that story?

I don’t know what I’d do without these posts. People are calling this episode good on Tumblr.

It wasn’t the Native Americans who drew them. Alaric said the words were Runic or whatever. Klaus and Rebekah drew the names, and I’m guessing Klaus came back to add the illustration (and confess).

Esther put the curse on Klaus. Before this episode, I always felt that between his two parents, Klaus could count on his mom as an ally.

Ugh. There are a couple of people who should have been included in this flashback (and some things needed to be shown instead of told), namely Klaus’ birthfather and the Petrova who’s blood was spilled.

Stop everything. So Klaus was born in the Americas, right? Are they telling me the Petrovas are from the Americas too? Wtf? Why the heck didn’t they just keep them in Europe?! Just have Bonnie summon the Original witch at the end of last episode and tell the flashbacks through her. No caves needed.

Why was there an entirely village of White people? I mean I guess Mikael wouldn’t just take his family to that new land. He’d want some friends too. Ugh. I feel like the podcast for this episode should be a short one. Just me pointing out how many previously established canon they retconned.

I meant the stuff with the symbols about wolves and vampires, but I guess Klaus could have done those as well.

If Esther put the curse on him and he killed her right after, who did he ask about taking the curse off? And who is the doppelgänger? Katherine was Bulgarian, right? Were her ancestors chilling with Vikings?

If Esther put the curse on him and he killed her right after, who did he ask about taking the curse off?

Ayanna?

Katherine was Bulgarian, right? Were her ancestors chilling with Vikings?

Why not? Original Fam were from Eastern Europe and, from what I understand, the Vikings were all over Europe 1000 yrs ago. I am sure the Originals didn’t set sail to North America by themselves. They must have had other families with them.

Stop everything. So Klaus was born in the Americas, right? Are they telling me the Petrovas are from the Americas too?

Lol. I guess that would sort of fit in with what historians think happened with the real Vikings in North America (if the show didn’t say they moved all the way down to Virginia). Or at least what I got from the Canadian History mins that show between commercials. The Vikings in Newfoundland were driven out by the Natives there. They actually went back home. Maybe something similar happened here. The villagers, who were left standing after the Originals’ shenanigans, went back home – including Elena’s ancestors. And much later, one branch of that family immigrated back to the U.S and Isobel was born

1. So who put the curse on Klaus? Who is the original doppelganger? Klaus’s mom? How? Are Elena and Katherine supposed to be related to the Originals? I don’t get it.

I assumed, before this ep, that the Original doppelganger was going to be a random girl from the Original family’s village but now I think she is a sister or connected to them closely somehow. Rebekah called her the “Original one” in The Reckoning and we now know that everyone labelled “Original” is from the same family. I am thinking she is locked up in one of the coffins. Maybe Esther found a way to bring her back to life after the sacrifice or Ayanna came by to save her/revive her because she couldn’t let her die.

Personally, I would like it if she was one of Rebekah’s friends. Elena’s influence over her would be easier to take if this was the case. Maybe Original Doppelganger (am I the only one who wants to write/say Original Gangsta each time the word “original” is brought up?) was the Elena to her Caroline.

Okay, so apparently JP said on Twitter that it was werewolves who made the drawings in the cave, not Klaus. *Rubs temple* Would it have been so hard to make that undeniably clear in the episode? Would it?

Is she drunk? Did she miss the fact that the episode just told us something else?

Why would the Native Americans be writing the story of this loser family anyway? So can we assume it’s Klaus’ real father’s family who are the antecedents of the Lockwoods? Is that how it was known that Esther was killed by Klaus and not Mikael?

Why does everyone believe the scribblings on a wall anyway – have they already forgotten how well “historical evidence” has worked in the past? (See: sun and moon curse, Elijah and Klaus trolling history). (Also, now knowing these fools are only 1000 years old, it really throws a spanner in the idea that Klaus and Elijah were running around the world fabricating myths in ancient temples and the like. It just doesn’t make sense anymore.)

So can we assume it’s Klaus’ real father’s family who are the antecedents of the Lockwoods?

Only if you want to be disappointed. I doubt they’d make Tyler related to the Originals. Especially since they didn’t to show Klaus’ birthfather. Though Damon did talk about original or ancient Lockwood or something. But I’m just going to guess that the Lockwood who did the drawings was just a bystander.

I don’t know why none of them even suggested the writings might be fake, especially since Elena brought up her chat with Elijah and one of the things Elijah had said is that the whole sun/moon thing was fake and he and Klaus had a habit of doing that.

Why would the Native Americans be writing the story of this loser family anyway?

I’m still trying to figure this out because the episode gave us no reason to believe that this would have happened even if it hadn’t told us something else.

Also, now knowing these fools are only 1000 years old, it really throws a spanner in the idea that Klaus and Elijah were running around the world fabricating myths in ancient temples and the like. It just doesn’t make sense anymore.

None of it makes any sense. There was no need for TVD to attempt an origin story for all vampires. Especially if they were only going to make them 1000 years old. Last season when they revealed that the oldest vampire was only 1000 years old (not even living vampire just the oldest) I was disappointed because that seemed pretty young by immortality on TV standards. Especially as a starting point.

What I want to know is who are they fabricating the myths for? Vampires don’t seem all the curious about walking in the sun. We’ve only had one group of werewolves who were curious. Who were they fabricating the myths for and why would some random werewolf/vampire having stumbled upon some cave and shit think to go look for another one or even believe it?

There are no collectives of hierarchies in either world so who would be leading the charge and why, if Klaus couldn’t find the doppelgänger for so long, would someone else be able to? And what would be the point of someone else finding the doppelgänger , since Klaus seemed to set up the fake myths in a way that would benefit him whether he broke the spell directly or not, and breaking the spell if Klaus had to be the one to kill Elena?

Is she drunk? Did she miss the fact that the episode just told us something else?

Technically, the ep didn’t say something different. The names of the Originals were on a different wall or different section of the cave than the drawings. So actual writing (names) was on one side and the pics (story) were on another side. Alaric simply did not comment on who made the drawings. Much like Carol, the entire show does not like to talk about unpleasant things like that – namely the history of African Americans and Native Americans. Sure, they will spell out the Viking part but commenting on who the werewolves were is a bridge too far.

Someone brought up another screw-up/example of the producers not thinking things through. Namely: remember when Elijah ripped the necklace from Elena’s neck and through it away? The necklace that belonged to his mother and which his sister wore for years? The mother he loved so much (though who knows if that will be retconned too)? Remember how he paid no mind to the damn thing? I can write away Klaus not recognizing it around Elena’s neck, but Elijah looked at the thing. And like I said, his family meant a lot to him.

The worst part of all of this isn’t all the plot contrivances and retcons. I can either overlook that stuff or make it work in my head most of the time. I am having a problem with how they are telling this story. One small example of this is how they acted like it was the most SHOCKING thing in the world that Mikael is the Original dad and then they glossed over the really shocking stuff. Rebekah getting murdered by her father should have been a really shocking moment. Imagine all the Original kids sitting for dinner and suddenly Rebekah or Elijah is stabbed through the chair they are sitting in. Kind of like when Elijah got “killed” by Alaric. And then everyone goes into a panic and it is extra terrifying because everyone is trying to keep from getting killed by their FATHER.

Also, the origin story could have played out better. I guess what they are saying is that being a vampire is a curse because it is antithetical to having a community. I mean, the Originals had to burn down the tree that represented permanence to their village. The very flowers/plants in the village hurt them. The homes of their neighbors were closed to them. The sun burned. That is a big deal for what I assume is an agricultural society. So they were barred from the daily work life and the social life of the village. They were a destructive force even when they didn’t mean to be because the blood lust was strong. They couldn’t help but be a destructive. As a result of being a vampire, Klaus’ werewolf side was revealed and that destroyed the family unit as well.

Ok but what is a community to these people? What do communities look like to TVD writers and why is it important to the characters that they belong to one? They should have spent more of season two on the Salvatores trying to fit in and not succeeding all the way because of their vampirism. They did do this with Stefan in season one when he joined the football team and later when he was trying to act normal in that party during the blood arc. Also, when Zack told Stefan that he didn’t belong here, Stefan said something like, “where do I belong?” I thought that was an awesome line and thought the show was going to go somewhere with the isolation vampires have to live with. Plus, Damon had to pass for human to join the Council and do all kinds of schemes to not be found out – again, this was season one. Anyway, I would feel the tragedy of it all if what these characters lost was made more clear. This is like how they didn’t establish the Bill/Caroline relationship but expected me to feel bad that Caroline lost her father. The problem was that I never saw Bill being Caroline’s father.

I am having a horrible headache so I hope some of that made some sense.

Ugh! A horrible thought just occurred to me. Remember when I was wondering what Elena represented in the story a little while ago? Maybe she represents a sense of community. Maybe the Original Doppelganger was the golden girl of her village.

It’s just one big mess. Even though we learned that Mikael killed his kids and, more importantly, Klaus killed his mother, it feels like we learned nothing because those were literally just lines. Why not show us Klaus killing his mom? Why not show us Elijah getting killed and his transformation? That’s one of the things that…I don’t know…bug me or make no sense or didn’t give the story as much weight as it could’ve had. Like, yes this is being told from Rebekah’s story, but they acted like we knew as much as about Elijah as we do about Rebekah and Klaus. Like they’re on the same level, and they’re not. We knew more about Elijah, so they should’ve shown us something that continued the thread of all the info we knew about him. At least show us Rebekah’s relationship with him since this was from her pov. Instead nothing. It’s like JP forgot Elijah is her favorite character.

We knew more about Elijah, so they should’ve shown us something that continued the thread of all the info we knew about him. At least show us Rebekah’s relationship with him since this was from her pov. Instead nothing.

This. This was my issue with Klaus’ introduction too actually. I hated that they spent all that time with Elijah and then “killed” him as soon as Klaus showed up. Uhhh Why am I supposed to give a fuck about Klaus? They should have tied Elijah to Klaus more before they killed him. There should have been more Elijah/Klaus time in the present day.

Also, throughout the flashback, Klaus and Rebekah were scared of their father. They kept talking about it and Mikael was shown harassing Klaus. They build up Mikael into this larger than life scary figure to his kids. Unfortunately, they failed to follow-through by showing us the scariest thing he did to his kids

Thanks for bringing this up Susan … I couldn´t believe it, that she was the person who spoke about the bond of the family while lieing in bed with the murder of her brother/cousin and also her mother (even it was her decision).

And now after you brought up the part with Mikael killing all his kids (it is horrible, that I didn´t even give that a serious thought because it was brushed over completely) … why wasn´t this a point for Elena to not wake him up.
This episode the flailing about family bond and next episode they are scheming together with the murder of his whole family.

So now that the originals are effected by the sun I don’t understand why they are so hard to kill. Just take off they’re rings or whatever and put them in the sun. This show is so dumb, they just made them old vampires that’s it. The thing that was scary about them is that they couldn’t be killed like a regular vamp by the sun or a stake.

What I’m not understand and what the producers probably won’t explain is why the sun stops short of killing them? Why? I liked the thought of them just not being affected by the sun. And that the vamps they sired were because they weren’t made with the white oak tree. And they can still say that that is why the sun can kill these vamps. But they won’t. And most people will go on thinking it’s a continuity error that the sun can hurt the Originals.

Well someone said that they’ve always been affected by the sun. That Elijah just said they couldn’t be killed by the sun. And that they all have always had rings.

I hate all of this. Why am I expected to remember all these tiny details about compulsion, rings, daggers etc when the character arcs and relationships make no sense? Isn’t that the first thing that needs attention in a story?

I feel you. I feel like there’s a retcon somewhere, and I also feel like in the beginning we were supposed to think the sun couldn’t hurt them at all. I mean it would be ridiculous to have Elijah you can’t beat me when all you’d have to do is take his ring off, and he’d get hurt by the sun.

It occurred to me this morning that all the potential of the characters and the stories that they could have were established in s1 and with minor exceptions for certain characters there has been little to no follow through for anyone.

How are JP and KW in charge of this? How is the writing staff paid to produce such crap? I’ve never watched a show be so unimaginative and generic in its storytelling. Why are we supposed to be surprised all the time, especially when, give or take an episode or two (maybe even within the same episode), the writing will reveal that what you previously believed either did not matter or was a lie? That’s not good writing. This isn’t how you tell a story.

I’m convinced that every time I talk about this show I make less sense. Am I missing something? There are people on Tumblr who say that the haters should get over it because who do we think the CW is making this show for? I don’t know what to think about that. Who are they making this show for? There are times when I feel like Joss Whedon is a prick and isn’t half as progressive as he thinks is, nor did he do as much as he could have, but his limits as a storyteller never felt as egregious or lazy as KW and JP.

There are people on Tumblr who say that the haters should get over it because who do we think the CW is making this show for?

For shallow idiots like them, obviously. From your tumblr profile, you are in the target demo for this show. What are these Tumblr people even talking about? I also find it ironic(?) that people who can’t tolerate criticism for the writing of one group of people are ok with criticizing the work of another group of people. Especially since they are protecting the more powerful of these groups (as if they need “protection”) probably because they identify with this group or see themselves in this group. And especially since they are saying that their experience of the world is the only one that matters – the experience of those who aren’t exactly like them don’t count.

I leave it to you to come up with the appropriate labels for these people.

Hold on. Your Tumblr profile says nothing about your age. Lol. I don’t know where I got that from. LJ? It doesn’t matter anyway. Why is it a problem for them that you are expressing your opinion? That anon question in Alta’s Tumblr account pissed me off

There are times when I feel like Joss Whedon is a prick and isn’t half as progressive as he thinks is, nor did he do as much as he could have, but his limits as a storyteller never felt as egregious or lazy as KW and JP.

I don’t know about KW but maybe the following gives us a clue about JP

JanetCaveDEx Janet ®
@

@julieplec How did you become a script writer etc?!
19 Sep
in reply to @JanetCaveDEx ↑
julieplec
@julieplec julieplec
@janetpinkyinky I started as a producer, got asked to write a script because we were behind schedule, ended up becoming a writer. Kyle XY.
19 Sep via web

So she started writing scripts for a tv show in 2007 and by 2009 she was a headwriter. I don’t know if that is usual for this industry. I found that astounding.

Because they make the show for certain people, it doesn’t need to make sense? Or be good?

I’m guessing the people who say this are either in the group they believe the show is being made for or assume that group consist entirely of 14 and 15 year old girls. Which seems insulting no matter how you look at it. Why would anyone watch a show that wasn’t even trying to be good was using its viewership as a reason to not make sense/be good?

What makes all of this worse is that Nikita is on the same network and, I assume, is targeting the same demo. While TVD has been falling apart more and more, the writing for Nikita has been getting tighter and better. Despite their much lower budget, the Nikita writers are not using the CW viewer’s age as an excuse. You mentioned that you are watching TSCC on your tumblr account. Nikita is the next best thing.

Heck, even Ringer wasn’t that bad last I checked. Supernatural was always super offensive but it wasn’t this bad storytelling wise in its first few years. Do these people get that they are not so much saying that this show is dumb because it is for teenagers in a station for teenagers but that it is dumb because it is for people who are dumb? Like you said, that is insulting.

Yes to Nikita it’s writing has been stellar this year. I feel like half the problem with TVD is the writers want to be famous. JP just likes patting herself on the back and being in the spotlight. No just focus on writing good stories and they don’t.

Can you imagine a sociopath like Percy on this show? Someone who is actually smart and has intricate plans? How about Amanda? Can you imagine something like the long term mind fuck Amanda pulled on Alex on this show? I really wished that the conversation between Michael and Nikita that happened in the latest ep had happened between Jeremy and Bonnie after she looked him up in the witch house last season. Heck, their breakup this season would have made more sense because it would look like he was still resenting her for that.

Tavi – good point about Julie Plec seeking the spotlight. On top of all the regular interviews, she does online previews or commentaries for each ep now?! I don’t watch them…I don’t know. Yeah it’s self-congratulatory, and it’s no wonder the quality of the writing suffers when the writer’s always out promoting instead of concentrating on telling a good story, and paying attention to the details. Although the interactivity with fans *could* be used to improve the show… it seems to only lead to pointless meta/shout-outs. There should be a PR person who…that’s their whole job. Promote the show, leak spoilers, whatever. And let the writers sit in a quiet room with no distractions so they can think, and perfect things. But, like you said, they *want* to be famous. More than they want to be great writers, I guess. Or all the attention inflates their egos so that they can’t even tell their writing sucks! Ack.

On top of all the regular interviews, she does online previews or commentaries for each ep now?!

To be fair, I think that is something that the CW is doing for a lot of shows. I remember seeing the Ringer showrunners doing the same thing. Plus, so many showrunners are on Twitter now. It is almost a requirement. Community’s showrunner has a tumblr account. It is the most pretentious hipster thing I have ever seen. The world doesn’t understand him or he doesn’t understand the world or he understands the world perfectly. No one can truly say. It is a mystery.

I agree with the rest though. I wish there was more of a distance between the PR and the writers.

Although the interactivity with fans *could* be used to improve the show… it seems to only lead to pointless meta/shout-outs.

They are so dependent on feedback from the audience but a lot of the feedback they are getting is ridiculous and about fetishizing a particular couple or character to the extreme. All they are getting are a million screams of “Delena forever!”

Elijah said that the Originals considered it wrong, morally, for a vampire to kill another vampire and that is why Damon couldn’t use the dagger on Elijah without dying. The only reason Klaus didn’t die was because he was a hybrid and therefore defied that rule from the very beginning. Whether he was actively a hybrid or not.

Has Mikael been chasing Klaus all of these years in order to hand off the stake to some random human in order to kill him? Because that is sad. And makes him lame.

Yes, lame. Or he used witches too (like Klaus) until the last one turned on him. But that witch was working with Rebekah and Klaus, right? I think that is how Rebekah and Klaus knew that he was locked up. Lol. Stop poking further holes in this show. It is has like zero redeeming qualities as it is. You applying all this logic to it is putting it in the negatives 😉

Btw, I have been actively posting online for quiet a few months now and I still get riled up easily. That anon question at Alta’s tumblr SET ME OFF (show is for “white” people? Really?). So much so that just you mentioning the word “tumblr” got me ranting. If I used tumblr, it would be so easy to troll me.

Lol. I don’t know what kind of logic that is. It’s kind of problematic, really. The show is targeted to White teens only? So I should do what then? Grin and bear it since I’m apparently not supposed to be watching anyway? So wtf are KG, Malese Jow, Kelly Hu, and Jasmine Guy doing on the show? Is it because the producers want to show the White teens what people of color look like? Rme.

Like why is Klaus scared of him when he knows Mikael can’t even use the dagger himself?

Because the writers have no respect for heroes or villains as concepts, let alone genuine character development. This storyline would be so much better if Klaus was just trying to trap his father and then going “LOL, you sent the doppelgänger after me fool?” Before holding her away from his person using one hand and killing his father with the other. And by better I mostly mean entertaining.

Did Klaus seem more agitated/worried in the 20s? He didn’t seem so much afraid as on the run.

Yeah, he wasn’t scared at all. He even took his time to argue with Rebekah and compel Stefan to forget. But in The Reckoning, he was so scared that he just sent Rebekah a text while crossing the state line.

I have been wondering why they didn’t show the murders that happened in the flashbacks. Why not show us Klaus murdering his mom or Mikael murdering his family? This show LOVES gory violence. I think it is all a setup for another “twist”. Kind of like the sun and moon curse. I am feeling tired just typing this. Instead of setting up relationships or giving us a feel of how life was for the Original fam when they were Ordinary People, it is all a setup for “twists”. Almost everything else was stuff we already knew or guessed at.

Why not show us Klaus murdering his mom or Mikael murdering his family?

Because they weren’t in a romantic relationship? Because they didn’t put much thought into Esther being a witch (as in she’d be able to defend herself somewhat)? This show is past showing us stiff like Papa Salvatore shooting Damon and Stefan in the back. That’s back when things like that mattered.

That sums it up perfectly, jajp92! “Romance” trumps all, and women can’t defend themselves…even when they can. Depressing, ain’t it?

Maybe they also didn’t show Klaus killing Esther/Mikael killing his kids ’cause… if the audience doesn’t see it, it doesn’t seem as real and is easier to forgive? They seem to want us to excuse KrazyKillerKlaus, without him having to repent/reform and without them having to come up with an actual redemption storyline. This way they can have their cake and eat it too… he’s been woobied (woobiefied? :P) but he’s still got his “edge” so they can make him keep killing other people in future. Hmm, a lot of what I just said applies to Damon too. Except they’re not shy about showing Damon killing/torturing people (last season anyway) and expected us to sympathize with him anyway. But it’s Stefan’s turn now. And Lexi’s. Sigh.

I think you have a point with respect to why they didn’t show Klaus killing his mother. They still want us to feel bad for him because he’s ~all alone. Like, him killing his mom is not worse than her cursing him to be alone the rest of his life. Wtf?

Violence towards women is never really a big deal on this show anyway…so what if Klaus killed his mom? But men who have daddy issues…that’s important! We should definitely feel sorrier for Klaus ’cause Mikael hates him. 😛

I don’t even get what the big deal is about Klaus being “alone” as the only hybrid (before Tyler). Who cares if he’s the only one? It’s not like everybody abused and abandoned him because of it. He still had Elijah and Rebekah’s love/company…til he screwed up those relationships by lying to them…which is *his* fault. It’s not like hybrids can’t make friends with just-regular-vampires …or werewolves for that matter. Why can’t they? I mean, if the show is trying to convey that he *can’t* ’cause everybody’s scared of him because vamps & weres are “natural enemies”/a werewolf’s bite can kill a vampire, etc…(although it doesn’t seem to get in the way of Caroline/Tyler) so Klaus is maybe supposed to represent, like, a mixed race person who feels lack of acceptance/fitting in with either side (and how annoying that they’ve got a white guy standing in as a possible-metaphor for being biracial) … well, I feel like I just fanwanked all of that, because the show hasn’t actually conveyed to me, what is so horrible about Klaus’ situation. As far as I can see, people hate & fear him because he goes around hunting & killing people for fun, which is his choice, not an inevitability of his birth/being a hybrid. Poor persecuted lonely Klaus? Wtf?

It’s not like anyone can immediately tell that he’s a Hybrid. That’s what happens when your world is so myopic. No one much cared that Klaus was going to break the curse and now no one much cares that he’s a Hybrid. This goes back to what I said about how there should have been different supernatural groups vying to either stop or help Klaus.

I just wanted to say, that I made a massive rant in the episode discussion thread (first time that I even posted in that thread) about last episode on fanforum and after I saw all your comments and thought the same as you … I said that I got some of it through discussions with other people, I didn´t want to name the side because of your privacy, but now I feel bad, because some things look pretty similar to what you wrote after I re-read your comments. I was so mad that everyone gushed about it and the writing and I wanted to break my screen during watching the episode and reading the comments, so I went head over heels and ranted myself into the grave.

I know it´s too late, but if you want to I can link your podcast site to it or I will edit it out, the problem is I already got some comments on it.
Just wanted to let you know. I studied history and know everything about quotation but it is so difficult when you work on the internet and you don´t want to reveal anything about other people.
I won´t do it again, that will be my lesson. . .

I didn’t know this was taboo. I used some of the points mentioned here in my TWOP rant. I even used a term that songspin used here – “low-brow humor”. I mean, as long as I am not copying and pasting stuff, I thought it was ok. It means that I just agree with you guys, right? I agree with your opinion so I share in it – it is my opinion too now. Right? Someone jump in and clarify the etiquette on this please

Susan, I’m flattered! 🙂 Like I said earlier, been loving your TWOP posts. You often articulate how I feel (only better) *and* point out things I missed… and kinda inspired me to stop lurking and start ranting too. And you led me here… a safe place to discuss TVD, without crazy-strict mods (TWOP) or gushy uncritical fans (most recap sites). So, thank you! You’re the best… and you can quote me on that! Har har 😛

I was just reminding myself to give you a shoutout in the next podcast for continuously promoting it. As long as you mentioned that “someone” brought up/pointed out that point you’re ranting about, then it’s cool (or link to the comment section here if they allow that). That’s what I do when I’m talking (which is different then writing in the comments): I say “someone said” so you guys don’t think I came up with it myself, and sometimes I just link you guys to the review or post.

Just wanted to let you know because I was unsure and I wrote that rant for the german thread at the weekend and then tried to translate it for the episode discussion, because I couldn´t take the flailing of the majority of the poster there (what I noticed is that last weeks episode did get pretty positive posts by SE-Fans and the Bonnie fans -of course with Jeremy critic- and this weeks episode get many positive reactions from DE-Fans and the Klaus-fanatics), we must have seen two different episodes.
I didn´t copied and paste anything but I incorporated Altas idea (because it was so awesome) about the girls training together in my critic about the Damon/Elena fighting scenes and I tried to point out that I don´t like Bonnie´s and Caroline´s role at the moment because of them making Elena the “warrior princess” and basically putting Caro and Bonnie on the backbench for that.

And I mentioned your maturity explanation for Rebekah but wrote that I didn´t get the impression in the flashback episode to the 20ths.

You guys (Olu and Alta) need to post on TWOP instead of just reading it. The posts about Bonnie there will only get worse and worse. I know this from experience. Most of the hardcore Bonnie fans are gone from the site and the rabid Damon fans are back in full force – their motto is “Never Forget!” when Bonnie hurt woobie Damon basically.

I tried twice to create an account (one before TVD ever saw the light of day and one after), and both times failed. I don’t know why, but I think it was a sign. I would get banned before the next episode aired.

Did you create a fannish type username? They don’t like that. It usually takes a day or two to get approved. The rules for “politeness” are actually a lot more lax than say vampire-diaries.net. You just can’t address the other person directly. You have to only address their points. Oh well, I have to stop posting there as well. I am waaay outnumbered and I hate being on the defensive all the time.

Turns out you were right. I was just suspended until Thursday (until the next ep) for making a couple of jokes about how Bonnie has no parents and how she must live in the Gilberts’ attic. I guess I told them too straight. Maybe no one could tell they were jokes. I don’t know. I wrote “Bonnie has no parents. If you want to convince me otherwise, you will have to provide me with photographic evidence” Too much for TWOP. So yeah, I take back my suggestion.

Oh god, this is why I won’t even try to register with TWOP. I know I’d get banned right away too. I’ve seen other posters get slapped down for *nothing*. If you stop posting there, Susan, I won’t have much reason to read the threads anymore! But I understand your frustration… and this site is so much friendlier. I just hate to see people driven away from a forum The mods obviously want it to be a network-friendly place with no real criticism…bleh. So JP or whoever can “safely” read their recaps or glance at the forum without being offended. That’s my theory anyway.

So JP or whoever can “safely” read their recaps or glance at the forum without being offended. That’s my theory anyway.

OMG … I called them lazy and slobby in their writing in my rant at fanforum. Do you think they lurk there too?
Because if so … I have to change my icon into a general one. I have a Bonnie-icon and I don´t want her to hate on Bonnie even more than she already does.

Oh God! I didn’t want Jeremy to die when you guys wanted him dead (tbh, because I saw it coming) but I do now. All these crazy defenses of Jeremy are turning me against him. I want him killed like Dark!Willow killed Warren on Buffy.

Are you talking about in Ghost World when we were hoping his death would give the story a point/some sense? Or are you talking his attempted suicide in the season 1 finale back when I didn’t care and only hoped he’d die so the moment didn’t lose its intended effect?

As a result of that, he got a better handle on life and learned not to deal with loss by being self-destructive. It of course could’ve been told better (and they could have had him deal with Anna’s death then). That’s where JP’s “Jeremy is going to be a man” thing was coming from. She said he wouldn’t take things lying down anymore. It was easy to believe that in season 2. Add in this new information in season 3, and I’m completely lost (along with Steven McQueen apparently). What does Jeremy being a man mean if he’s responding to Anna like she died last night?

It is not just that. I am still not over the fact that there was no Jeremy/Vicki. WTF?! Screw this. If he was going to cheat, it should have been with Vicki. I would have enjoyed Vicki trying to manipulate him into doing what she wants.

Manipulation would have been almost assured with Vicky. Since she’s “the bad one” and all. Heck, she even manipulated her brother. It would have been glorious. Especially since Fandom would not have shown her half the understanding they’ve shown Anna.

Especially since Fandom would not have shown her half the understanding they’ve shown Anna.

I think this is exactly why they did it. They wanted to do a storyline of Jeremy yearning for his dead lover but they couldn’t do it with Vicki. He would be vilified completely by the fandom. This is what writing by Twitter looks like

I wasn’t exactly a Vicki fan… I liked Anna better. But I don’t believe that *Jeremy* liked Anna better. He was more into Vicki. The writing for Jeremy has never made sense to me. But I was willing to believe (even though the writers made it happen in a forced, contrived way) that Bonnie *might* actually be Jeremy’s first *real* mature relationship. (Vicki being an unhealthy “first love”/infatuation…and Anna being a Vicki-rebound) …but now the writers have wrecked that and want us to believe Anna’s his True-Tragically-Lost-Love? But *then* Alaric treats Jeremy’s ghost-affair like it’s a trivial thing and Jeremy will come to his senses/go back to Bonnie. So… trivial affair or true love? Could the show please be consistent for just a second?! I guess when Anna’s around, their love is Epic. But when they can’t get the actress to appear, Bonnie’s treated like The Real Thing. Meh. Jeremy will just keep flip-flopping like a fickle fool.

So the actor who plays Jeremy is also confused and admitting it to the press or something? Haha, that’s great. Although the writers may kill off his character if he’s too vocal in criticizing them, destroying the illusion that they have a Grand Master Plan. Both the writing & the actor have failed to make me attached to Jeremy though, so I don’t really care. (If he gets fired I hope he goes out in a blaze of glory and insults TVD… why not, he’ll still get work in the future ’cause of his grandpa anyway) 😉

So that´s bothering me some time and I wanted your opinion on that, because I saw a video in september and now I saw it again on tumblr and it caused some speculations … but it is about the ghost sl and Bonnie/Jeremy´s rl – either they decided against this approach or KW doesn´t know anything or it´s true what is said in the video … decide for yourself

So perhaps Alta you can speak about in the next Podcast or in the spoiler chat … but it is so old. I don´t know what to think about it.

I saw a video in september and now I saw it again on tumblr and it caused some speculations

I remember these spoilers. I guess it is very likely that Beremy will get back together very soon (DNW!) because the characters don’t remember the wrongs committed against them for long anyway. Plus, what is Jeremy going to do? There is nothing for him unless they expand his ability and he is able to see any ghosts – not just those he is thinking about.

A new poster over at TWOP pointed out another reason that the Alaric/Bonnie scene made sense. This persons immediately deleted their post for some reason but their point was that Alaric is the only (living) person who heard Bonnie say that she loves Jeremy.

The post has completely disappeared now. Not even the user’s name next to a blank post. It was their one and only post. Idk. TWOP has a weird culture. It is not very inviting. Tara (True Blood) and Bonnie are the devil for some unknown reason. Chlois was an actual thing in the Smallville forums. Like they thought it was cannon. All women are evil in the Supernatural forum. Idk. I am still not used to this stuff I guess. I need more experience in “fandom”. Watching it is one thing but participating is another beast all together.

Do you think she did it to re-enforce the brainwashing? Remember when Stefan told Elena (in the pilot??) that if he didn’t write in his journal, he would forget. That is why he has diaries – to keep his memories. *scary movie music* But are they *really* his memories? 😯 Maybe Lexi got him started on that. She makes him believe what she wants him to believe about their time together and if he ever doubts it in his mind later, the diaries are proof that it happened that way. Why would he doubt them, right? He always writes in them so why would certain parts be more untrue than others

Do you think she did it to re-enforce the brainwashing? Remember when Stefan told Elena (in the pilot??) that if he didn’t write in his journal, he would forget. That is why he has diaries – to keep his memories. *scary movie music* But are they *really* his memories? 😯 Maybe Lexi got him started on that. She makes him believe what she wants him to believe about their time together and if he ever doubts it in his mind later, the diaries are proof that it happened that way. Why would he doubt them, right? He always writes in them so why would certain parts be more untrue than others

I like this idea. I like it a lot. This is going into my head!canon for their relationship. It works as a way to reinforce the torture: reinforce his ideas (partially Lexi’s) that he is better than being a monster, that he doesn’t really want to kill, that he regrets what he’s done, that Lexi is his friend, and so on and so forth. Especially since, as far as we know, he didn’t keep a journal while he was alive.

It could also explain why he kept his murder list on the wall instead of in his journal (he was proud of that list and wanted to keep it to relive his kills but the list had to be removed from his so-called redemption) and why his journal entries related to his kills are concerned with regret. It would also explain why there are no mentions of Klaus or Rebekah (their absence makes no sense otherwise).