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Bombardier pitches Q400 to Air Serbia

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The Canadian plane manufacturer Bombardier has urged Air Serbia to replace its regional ATR fleet with the Dash 8 Q400 turboprop. Speaking on the sidelines of the Southeast Europe Aviation Summit, Bombardier's Director of Sales for Europe, Russia and CIS, Mark Gilbert, said, "Looking at Air Serbia, the Q400 not only replaces the ATRs but also helps them on some routes that are longer and that are narrower that go up to narrow bodies, which we understand are not being flown to full capacity, which is important. A good solution for Air Serbia would be two prone, the Q400 and C-series. I'm not saying that the CRJ900 and CRJ1000 would not fit here, but I would not want to go into an airline and give a three-aircraft solution. Let's keep it simple and let's give them two different fleet types". Within the former Yugoslavia, the Q400 turboprop, which has the capacity to seat up to 76 passengers, is currently flown only by Croatia Airlines. This year, Bombardier began offering the Q400 in a ninety-seat high density variant. According to Bombardier marketing, the aircraft breaks even with about a third of its seats filled.

Air Serbia currently operates six ageing 66-seat ATR72 planes and is yet to decide on whether it will maintain its regional operations with turboprop or jet-engine aircraft in the future. "Our strategy is to start flying double daily to a number of cities and to get new regional planes. We will see whether they will be turboprops or jet-engine aircraft. With these, we can cover points in the region", Air Serbia's Chairman, Siniša Mali, has said. Last year, the airline's CEO, Dane Kondić, noted that such a decision will depend on a range of factors such as pricing and other terms and conditions. However, leasing aircraft, rather than ordering them from the manufacturer, could be a simpler solution due to the longer time required to deliver new-built aircraft.

Bombardier has also seen an opportunity to pitch its new C-series aircraft to Air Serbia. Mr Gilbert noted, "They have a fleet of A319 and A320s and the C-series is an optimal aircraft for that. One of the big reasons is seasonality here. In the summertime you have 67% of annual traffic and that is growing year over year. What you want is an aircraft that can balance off as much as much as it can the good and the bad. We see, for example, on sectors from Belgrade to Amsterdam, where the A320s are only hauling around 85 passengers in the winter. Now, that's growing and you have to keep growth into perspective but that's still a low number. So what you want to do is get a C-series aircraft which has the lowest trip cost and balance out that seasonality". Air Serbia has ten Airbus A320neos on order which will eventually replace the current jet-engine fleet. The jets have the capacity to seat up to 165 passengers in a two-class configuration. Air Serbia will start taking delivery of the jets in the second half of 2018, with all ten to be with the airline by 2020.

Comments

I personally enjoy Q400 more than the ATR but I agree it would make more sense to be ordered as part of a C-series deal, which I doubt will happen. Time is running out on deciding a replacement for the ATRs though. My guess is that will need to start replacing them in 2018 at the latest.

I think Air Serbia should order passenger jets instead of replacing them with new atr 72s, I think getting more Airbus would be best solution, 6 A319s, to have all airbus fleet. However if they do decided to go for smaller passenger jet, Sukhoi Superjet 100, should be best solution imho and Air Serbia can get these for only $28 million at manufacturer's price or $22 million if they order 6. 98 seats one class, or 86 in two class configuration 32 and 36 inch pitch.

They wetleased Adria's CRJ 900 this summer and said that they were reviewing the plane which made a good impression on them. So the assumption is they are heading towards Bombardier for regional fleet replacement.

Q400 can flight long range cruise or high speed cruise. Difference in fuel consumption is considerable. So you can use it for all those airports you mentioned if you use it correctly. It will not burn less then ATR but will carry more people and payload and since its faster, it will do more rotations in a day. That all results in cash for the airline.

But the best part of the Q400, is that it can replace the jet on medium haul routes when it's flying at 50% load, like in the winter time, which is not only a problem for Air Serbia but for all regional companies around Balkans.

For all the hours I operated on the Q400, I never had one landing gear issue. Any other glitches were mostly solved by quick circuit breaker resets, just like we do now on the Airbus. So, yes they had issue a long time ago, but not as much as people believe they have today.

Yes, because it flies faster by almost 100kts, it climbs to FL270 without ANY issues fully loaded, and can avoid ice much better due to its cruising altitude. All that while flying more people and cargo. So yes, it will burn more, but less then half empty Airbus in the winter which is a big problem for ASL or anyone for that matter.

A) comparison was explicitely with ATRB) it burns more on very short routes (up to approx. 55mins if i remember correctly) but can do long routes of two hours and more for ex. where it is more economical

A) If the comfort is the most important thing, then why limit your comparison to turboprops, when Q400 is only marginally better than ATR? If you are serious about comfort, go for R Jets. B) No, you don't remember correctly. ATR remains much more economical on much longer routes. So you claim that Q400 becomes somehow more economical on flights above 2 hours compared to ATR? Why would you submit your passengers to 2+ hours flights on turboprop? I see no logic there. I thought comfort is important to you.

Ref A) yes it is a comparison limited to all props and turboprop, particularly towards ATR as per posts from Anons 9:13 and 10:06 who talk of ATRs.

However if you are serious about comparing Dash and Jets on typical short haul routes - we can compare that too and the turboprop will almost always win very easily.

Ref B) That is not what was meant. The Q400 becomes more economical compared to ATR from a certain average flight time. That is logical and easy to explain as in some flight stages ATR performs economically better and in some it is the Dash. On higher altitude and faster speeds the ATR is being outperformed by the Dash on routes with certain sector lengths (Q400 on bit longer routes, then later a jet engine aircraft will gain the upperhand) I might be wrong with the 55 Min indication, I do not remember exactly. Although a Q400 can fly 4 hours as said on here few weeks ago it does hardly operate any of such routes due to jet being better and yes more comfortable then. However, on the average sector length of turboprop the Dash is more economical compared to an ATR72 - that of course includes all facts and technical advantages and advancements where Dash wins by far: it has some 16% higher capacity, needs less flying time, climbs faster hence is less on more fuel consuming low altitudes and so on.

B) Lot of talking, very little specificity. Yes, maybe in some laboratory circumstances that never comes in real life where you want to torture passengers on a 3,5 hours flight by a turboprop, there is hypothetical situation where Q400 comes as cheap as ATR. You can use, again hypothetically, Q400 more during one day because it does its tours marginally faster. But, not in real life. And even if you do, you pay way more, because Q400 wants to be something between tprop and jet. It loses on economy in comparison with ATR, and on speed and comfort in comparison with r-jets. Always the second best.

The bottom line. ATR is way cheaper per passenger on shorter routes, typically used by tprops.

ATRs are way more popular among customers and you can sell used ones more easily, for a relatively better price than a q400 of the same age.

ATRs are true working horses. Just look at RO, Indonesian carriers - very efficient and reliable. Although, the best option would be Embraer. Just many European carriers are using it and has proven to be an excellent option: KL, BA, LO, FB, B2, etc, etc

Charge less and carry more pax - just like the LCCs do.... they have no probs filling jets and are equally filling the NEOs which have more capacity than current generation 319/320s ... so the answer is not in smaller capacity turbo fleet, rather, in the sales and marketing strategy that they need to adopt in order to address the issue of seasonality

Bombardier has just 24 Q400 orders this year. Backlog is 36 examples. In same time they deliver 36 planes per year (3 per month) so their backlog is just for one year. Philippines orders 5 Q400 several days ago and they will be delivered during 2017.

ATR had 76 orders in 2015. In begging of 2016 they had backlog of 260 planes what is enough for 3 years of production.

In some parts of the world Q400 rules. Pacific Northwest is all Q400. I recently had a number of flights on Q400 (Alaska/Horizon Air, Air Canada Express) around YVR and SEA and Q400 is perfect for local connections.

& Alen Šćuric Purger December 15, 2016 at 9:37 AMZagreb-BeogradDuring first two weeks of December Air Serbia flew 24 times BEG-ZAG, 2020 passengers, 24 flights in total. They fly double daily, excluding evening flight on Saturdays and morning flight on Sundays. One flight was performed with B733, all others with ATR72-200 (mostly) and ATR72-500.

I think MRJ would be a good plane for Air Serbia. Unfortunately it does not fit into their plan to get regional aircraft in relatively quickly which probably means getting second hand planes instead for speedy delivery.

Turbo props are efficient aircraft, but they are also high maintenance aircraft. And I agree people want jet engines and that's the case everywhere. You only have to see what kind of aircraft are being produced now to realise that the manufacturers know that as well.

Agree with last two Anons. That is due to lighter weight and ability to land also outside aerodromes in case of emergency.

As for the assumption that people "prefer" jets: If you generally ask people, that statement will be true. A jet is the most comfortable aircraft type and is the quietest inside of the cabin. But if you ask: Do you prefer flying BEG-VIE-BEG (2x300nm) for EUR 150 return in Turboprop or EUR 200 return in jet, the results will be different.

1/ There were never any 'write-offs'. That was part of the deal between the Govt and Etihad from the beginning, when the govt didn't have money to put into the airline and then decided to waive airport fees for 2 years in lieu of putting cash in the business.

2/ Air Serbia has been paying ALL airport fees as of 1 Jan from this year.

So, while you are free to write whatever you wish, your credibility is significantly helped when you post facts, rather than fiction

Some of them were refurbished by I think ANI and ANK still have the old Jat interiors with really old and worn out textile seats. AND and ANJ have the old LH interiors bought by Jat but they are also quite old and badly maintained.

Let's be clear, this is a mockery of JU subsidized by the Hungarian government. If Air Serbia had a proper regional network, these flights would be next to impossible. Yet, Kondic cancelled Budapest and struggles in Sarajevo.

It is, but experience with Adria CRJ900 shows there is a place for longer, thinner routes like Kiev that can't be served by ATR/Q400. Replacement for Aviolet should be A320, only without business class seats. There is a need for holistic review of Air Serbia fleet, not partial replacements.

Since you are talking about planes I just arrived home (athens) from hamburg via Belgrade . Belgrade to athens with a319 but hamburg to Belgrade with aviolet B733 , excelent service but I think JU has to replace those B733 ,they look old and not enough comfortable.

I am 1.85 and JU's seats are very uncomfortable because they are the older generation ones, that is they are not slim-seats most airlines use these days.

Same thing with Wizz Air. If you are flying on one of their older A320s then the experience is pretty horrible. However, if you end up on one of their newer ones then it's a completely different story.

Sorry, my personal opinion - I find the Q400 horrible, once flew with A3 with it. Noisy, and very unstable. E170 is a much better and more decent option. Canadian aircraft, just like C-series, tend to be lower class and made from cheaper material hence their lower price.

Huh? Compare stability of a DQ8400 to a CRJ! I have flown several times last year between Washington and New Orleans and done CRJ ex-LH Cityline flights all in CRJs and found them very shakey - as soon as there is bit thermic activity it keeps shaking you left right left which was a nasty experience on almost all flights. I have never experienced this in a DQ8400 or ATR. But also not in any Embraer.

Good night fm ZRH. Just rcvd the latest edition of the German edition of the Business Traveller Magazine. It has a C Class Review of JU BEGTXL flight and is praising JU service with excellent notesIt says JU is setting standards what on short haul flights in Business Class possible is. The journalist says, he has not seen anything similar in the world on such a short flight. It is obvious that JU is hungry and it does everything to present itselves and the country on the international stage. The achievements are convincing and he hopes that the high level of service can be maintained for the futureThe rewiew is on page 30,31 in the Dec-Jan edition

Hi BEGLAX 9:28 PM.Itis so nice to reed your text about Air Serbia in German magazine. Hopefully Serbian carrier will keep up momentum. And rising to higly recognized, up to medium-sized of 30+ aircrafts fleet. Time will proofing. Greetings from Kraljevo.Rodney

Dear Anon 12:17 PM.Sice I have retired six years ago, half year I live in Homeland Australia, and second part in Fatherland Serbia. Vinter in Serbia, vinter in Aussiland, down under.Most of as have to be PR of good will of cleer mind. For every good corse. Keep fly, keep hig, keep confident. And happy too.Rod. Kralkevo + Sydney

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