look - the GOP isn't stupid. they KNOW why they lost. But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks. they're trapped in a cage of their own making. the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

the GOP is locked into it's current course. I have no idea how they're going to get outta this one.

no, they're not. they are delusional, they are obstinate and they are arrogant. But they aren't stupid. think of the Republicans as being more the victims of a mental illness than being stupid. they are driven by a set of goals that conflicts with the reality around them...but their mythology and shared delusions are internally consistent (for the most part). the mental illness bit comes in when they choose to ignore inconvenient facts in favor of their echo chamber delusions. if they were simply stupid we would be able to lie and trick them very easily. As it stands, Obama and the Democrats aren't winning against the Republicans because they've out-thought the GOP...they're winning because the GOP's ideology is so extreme, so insane that the rest of the country wants nothing to do with it. And because the Republican party is so insane, they simply are not capable of changing their approach. that option simply does not exist for the Republican party. they KNOW that they're losing. they KNOW that their too extreme. But they can't change their ideology any more than someone who's OCD could stop touching a door handle three times before opening it. they know it's wrong, they KNOW it...but they can't help themselves.

Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid. they KNOW why they lost. But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks. they're trapped in a cage of their own making. the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

that's probably the best, most succinct explanation of the state of the current GOP i've seen. this should be printed on cards and handed out at CPAC.

Weaver95:look - the GOP isn't stupid. they KNOW why they lost. But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks. they're trapped in a cage of their own making. the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

the GOP is locked into it's current course. I have no idea how they're going to get outta this one.

Their only option is to fark that chicken even harder. Maybe the feathers will catch fire with all friction and a Phoenix will rise from the ashes and they can fark that instead for awhile

no, they're not. they are delusional, they are obstinate and they are arrogant. But they aren't stupid. think of the Republicans as being more the victims of a mental illness than being stupid. they are driven by a set of goals that conflicts with the reality around them...but their mythology and shared delusions are internally consistent (for the most part). the mental illness bit comes in when they choose to ignore inconvenient facts in favor of their echo chamber delusions. if they were simply stupid we would be able to lie and trick them very easily. As it stands, Obama and the Democrats aren't winning against the Republicans because they've out-thought the GOP...they're winning because the GOP's ideology is so extreme, so insane that the rest of the country wants nothing to do with it. And because the Republican party is so insane, they simply are not capable of changing their approach. that option simply does not exist for the Republican party. they KNOW that they're losing. they KNOW that their too extreme. But they can't change their ideology any more than someone who's OCD could stop touching a door handle three times before opening it. they know it's wrong, they KNOW it...but they can't help themselves.

At what point does all the delusional, arrogant and obstinate become stupid? The Republican Party has been advocating non-functional policies for DECADES. We know their trickle-down bullshiat doesn't work, we know they are farking horrible on personal freedom issues. We know they no longer even offer practical policy in any arena. If they don't know this, they are stupid-plain and simple. Either their supporters are stupid or the leadership is stupid or both.

If they know these things yet continue to make them core planks of their platform, they are what? Trolls? Suicidal? Is the party made up of stupid not-so-rich people and greedy-yet-smart rich people? What of the women and blacks that are card-carrying Republicans? What are they?

no, they're not. they are delusional, they are obstinate and they are arrogant. But they aren't stupid. think of the Republicans as being more the victims of a mental illness than being stupid. they are driven by a set of goals that conflicts with the reality around them...but their mythology and shared delusions are internally consistent (for the most part). the mental illness bit comes in when they choose to ignore inconvenient facts in favor of their echo chamber delusions. if they were simply stupid we would be able to lie and trick them very easily. As it stands, Obama and the Democrats aren't winning against the Republicans because they've out-thought the GOP...they're winning because the GOP's ideology is so extreme, so insane that the rest of the country wants nothing to do with it. And because the Republican party is so insane, they simply are not capable of changing their approach. that option simply does not exist for the Republican party. they KNOW that they're losing. they KNOW that their too extreme. But they can't change their ideology any more than someone who's OCD could stop touching a door handle three times before opening it. they know it's wrong, they KNOW it...but they can't help themselves.

mrshowrules:Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid. they KNOW why they lost. But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks. they're trapped in a cage of their own making. the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

the GOP is locked into it's current course. I have no idea how they're going to get outta this one.

Their only option is to fark that chicken even harder. Maybe the feathers will catch fire with all friction and a Phoenix will rise from the ashes and they can fark that instead for awhile

I honestly don't know how the GOP is gonna get outta this one. I'm not even sure they CAN get out of this mess. they sure as hell won't accept outside help - not that anyone outside the Republican cult is willing to help them in the first place. so it's entirely up to the Republican elites to fix their internal issues...but there's a problem with that fact as well: right now there IS no clear leader of the Republican party. there's a cluster of rich and powerful elites. there are powerful factions who work both behind the scenes and are visible front row center. But there isn't one clear and well defined leader of the Republican party. nor CAN there be a clear and powerful leader...because anyone who tries to step forward and lead the GOP gets sabotaged and back stabbed by either their nominal allies (for reasons of ego) AND jumped on by every OTHER faction within the GOP who are afraid that a strong leader would dial back their respective faction goals.

I think the most damaging aspect for the GOP's internal politics is that the evangelicals and the pro-corporate factions are roughly equal in power. that's prevented the Republicans from being able to nominate one clear leader whom they could all rally around. and the tea party is so insane and so annoying that they can't serve as a neutral party or moderating factor during negotiations.

it's possible the GOP could just well...'freeze in place' for a while. they become so preoccupied with their own internal issues that they tune out the rest of the world almost completely. at that point, the Democrats could easily elect almost anyone to office with little or no effective opposition.

I guess what i'm trying to say is - don't underestimate the Republicans. if they ever get their shiat together, they can make life extremely difficult for the rest of us. don't assume they're all dumb inbred tea baggers. understand their psychology and you can use it against them. one of the most glaring weaknesses of the Republican party is they can't (or won't) bother to understand YOUR motivations or psychology. that lets you blind side them rather easily. to most Republican True Believers, if you aren't with them, then you are The Enemy. you're a 'librul' and 'libruls' are all alike. the Republicans cannot conceive of a 'librul' protecting the second amendment or being a hunter. they assume 'libruls' hate all businesses without cause or exception. they assume corporations will always act in the best interests of this nation and that the GOP leadership is honorable. And the GOP assumes that deep down everyone in the country is really a conservative christian with values just like themselves.

use those blind spots. don't try to slug it out with the GOP on ideology, because you can't win that fight. instead, encourage the GOP to dig in their heels and stick to their ideology even more than they would otherwise.

the GOP's main problem is that there aren't enough millionaires in the country. therefore they need the uneducated poors to vote for them as well. and to do that, they have to appeal to religion and race politics (ergo, the tea party). but as old tricorn-wearing, bible-thumping racists die off, even those two groups together aren't large enough to win national elections.

the only option is to change. but as weaver pointed out, they believe that change means weakness, so they're unlikely to do that. it's the scorpion and the frog.

Weaver95:it's possible the GOP could just well...'freeze in place' for a while. they become so preoccupied with their own internal issues that they tune out the rest of the world almost completely. at that point, the Democrats could easily elect almost anyone to office with little or no effective opposition.

That's a possibility but I doubt it would happen beyond 2016.

My fear is that the GOP's woes translate into the Democrats getting holier-than-thou and not caring about who they put up, and we end up with another Dubya because "well god, Gore is just so boring..."

somedude210:Weaver95: it's possible the GOP could just well...'freeze in place' for a while. they become so preoccupied with their own internal issues that they tune out the rest of the world almost completely. at that point, the Democrats could easily elect almost anyone to office with little or no effective opposition.

That's a possibility but I doubt it would happen beyond 2016.

Both sides cheat, but Republicans are much better at it. Through redistricting, Republicans will probably keep the House through 2020, making real change nearly impossible. And the only way it can get better by 2022 is if Democrats can tame the GOP's huge state government advantage by the 2020 state legislature elections before the next redistricting.

FlashHarry:Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid. they KNOW why they lost. But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks. they're trapped in a cage of their own making. the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

that's probably the best, most succinct explanation of the state of the current GOP i've seen. this should be printed on cards and handed out at CPAC.

Weaver95: one of the most glaring weaknesses of the Republican party is they can't (or won't) bother to understand YOUR motivations or psychology.

We have a winner, folks.

It's interesting to note that all of these GOP-produced reports about why they lost the last election cycle contain entirely internal research, i.e. voices and opinions from within the party. Not even once have we seen an effort by the GOP to look for answers outside the party. It seems to me that the sensible thing to do when a party loses an election would be for researchers from the losing party to speak with voters who did not vote for their party and ask those people why they chose to vote the way they did, specifically why they did not vote for them and why they chose some other candidate instead. There's been a little bit of talk about "outreach" from the more progressive voices in the party, but that's mostly about immigration issues so they can try to win over more Hispanic voters. Why has there been no discussion of reaching out to voters who voted against them so they can find out why those voters voted against them?

Seriously, we've seen all this shiat about how the GOP lost voters because the candidate they put forward didn't toe the line carefully enough on conservative values. There are people on the inside who think that they lost because they weren't conservative enough. Now, tell me, is it likely that there are any voters (let alone the couple of million that would have been needed to sway the results) who voted for Obama because the GOP isn't conservative enough? What a crock of shiat.

Lumpmoose:Both sides cheat, but Republicans are much better at it. Through redistricting, Republicans will probably keep the House through 2020, making real change nearly impossible. And the only way it can get better by 2022 is if Democrats can tame the GOP's huge state government advantage by the 2020 state legislature elections before the next redistricting.

I'm not so sure the GOP's hold at the state level is going to last as long as the Republicans seem to think it will. if the GOP ideology continues on it's path towards ever more extreme views, their losses at the ballot box will only accelerate.

We all think about ourselves in terms of stories. I'm a policy analyst, and we all know that a single anecdote told to the right politician at the right time can launch a new initiative more easily than a binder full of carefully researched facts.

The GOP rely on the most toxic story there is: "They think they're better than you. They think they deserve something you don't have." In the end, people didn't like Romney, they didn't much like the GOP policies, but they still voted R because they don't want to think of themselves as the kind of people who would vote for Democrats.

The problem is, the GOP story is tightening to appeal to a smaller and smaller group of people, and I don't know how they get themselves out of that corner without radically rewriting the message, which will 1) lose the trust of their base, and 2) end up indistinguishable from the Democrats.

FlashHarry:Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid. they KNOW why they lost. But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks. they're trapped in a cage of their own making. the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

that's probably the best, most succinct explanation of the state of the current GOP i've seen. this should be printed on cards and handed out at CPAC.

GiantRex: Now, tell me, is it likely that there are any voters (let alone the couple of million that would have been needed to sway the results) who voted for Obama because the GOP isn't conservative enough? What a crock of shiat.

I think their rationale is that these people didn't vote for Obama but instead sat out the election, that the GOP needs to twist the Derp dial to 11 to get more true conservatives to vote. The GOP won't change until they nominate a "true conservative" for the presidency and then watch him(her) get beaten like a Christopher Walken cowbell.

Speaker2Animals:GiantRex: Now, tell me, is it likely that there are any voters (let alone the couple of million that would have been needed to sway the results) who voted for Obama because the GOP isn't conservative enough? What a crock of shiat.

I think their rationale is that these people didn't vote for Obama but instead sat out the election, that the GOP needs to twist the Derp dial to 11 to get more true conservatives to vote. The GOP won't change until they nominate a "true conservative" for the presidency and then watch him(her) get beaten like a Christopher Walken cowbell.

But, of course, losing is proof that the person they nominated wasn't really a "true conservative" and the next time they'll be sure to nominate a real one. Rinse and repeat.

Mentat:St_Francis_P: considering that Hispanics are often ideologically liberal for reasons beyond immigration.

And by "ideologically liberal" they mean staunchly anti-abortion conservative Catholics, who might vote conservative if Republicans didn't make it so plain that they hate them.

Or not.

Of course not every Hispanic falls neatly into a political box, but it's a fact that Bush had good success getting them to vote for him. And it's common sense that the hate from the GOP isn't going to encourage them to vote Republican. The alternative is to give up on a large and growing bloc of voters.

Weaver95:look - the GOP isn't stupid. they KNOW why they lost. But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks. they're trapped in a cage of their own making. the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

the GOP is locked into it's current course. I have no idea how they're going to get outta this one.

Not without ejecting the Religious Right and the Idiot Brigade, and they aren't done milking those idiots for all the cash that they can. Those folks can still deliver smaller seats, and help districting issues, but it is a losing proposition in the Senate and for the White House.

You can't bank on anger to keep you going. Anger is not a bad thing to take advantage of for the short term, but in order to bank on it, you need folks who are just filled with bile and rage, and those folks...they don't play so well to Middle America. The folksy-homey act helps defeat some of the revulsion, but banking on stupid is likewise not a winning strategy in the long run. And that is what folks are trying to hook their dreams on. Rage and bile. And a lot of folks are tired of it, because it takes a LOT of energy to be that pissed off all the time. Glenn Beck couldn't manage to keep it together on TV. Even Phelps has to step out of the limelight or he gets frothy to the point of incoherency. Rush...he embodies that ethos, and he is consigned to radio, because it just ain't healthy. Even the "front runners" in the last straw poll, are making their conciliatory efforts to rein in those tendencies. Of course, when you bank on milquetoasts who then switch on the Pretty Little Hate Machine, you get such a dichotomy that they appear unhinged, like Bachmann or Palin.

At some point, the party is either going to have eject the Idiot Brigade, or accept that they won't have the White House for a long while, and the Senate will slip away as well, leaving them a regional party, with Governors who are going to have to work like Hells to get elected with a decreasing base, especially in the face of hardship of economic policies that put a squeeze on most of the folks in their electorate. It can't continue, and at some point, folks are going to either have to come to grips with these facts, and dump blind ideology, and get back to reasoned policies.

St_Francis_P:Of course not every Hispanic falls neatly into a political box, but it's a fact that Bush had good success getting them to vote for him. And it's common sense that the hate from the GOP isn't going to encourage them to vote Republican. The alternative is to give up on a large and growing bloc of voters.

yes but remember - compromise of any sort is weakness. the GOP cannot compromise on immigration reform. Not even to save themselves.

The GOP isn't trying to figure out what went wrong with regards to their communication techniques or fine-tuning their message. Its not about figuring out social media or getting a better ground game. Its all about being able to better fool the voters into voting against their self-interests. Lets see, how can we call the blacks "freeloading n*&&ers" to increase our percentage of the white vote, while simultaneously appealing to the African-American bigots who hate gays? How can we simultaneously let the Hispanics know that they're all dirty illegal Mexicans to us, but they should vote for us because a lot of them are Catholic? How can we call a gay person a f*ggot who is leading the country down the path of moral decline while we tell people how inclusive we are? How can we call everyone who doesn't make $500k/yr a "taker" without getting caught on tape? How can we get the middle class to view the poor as the source of all their problems?

Weaver95:As it stands, Obama and the Democrats aren't winning against the Republicans because they've out-thought the GOP...they're winning because the GOP's ideology is so extreme, so insane that the rest of the country wants nothing to do with it.

It doesn't take much thought to be "the lesser of two evils". So, yeah, they are actually "out-thinking them". It's just that the fruit is so damned low, Hellen Keller's Wienerdog could pick it.

Mentat:St_Francis_P: considering that Hispanics are often ideologically liberal for reasons beyond immigration.

And by "ideologically liberal" they mean staunchly anti-abortion conservative Catholics, who might vote conservative if Republicans didn't make it so plain that they hate them.

Or not.

Yes. I don't know any "Latinos". I know salvadorans and mexicans and cubans and peruvians (my father)

And while many hold what would be called "conservative" values about sex and abortion, that doesn't necessarily translate into republican political values about tax cuts, cutting education and social welfare services, and basically dicking over the poor. All over Latin America you can see leftist ideologies being much stronger than here. My father doesn't care for the gays or even other minorities but he does believe that publicly funded education is sacrosanct and key to social mobility. One party seems hellbent on destroying this and the social safety net to benefit richer people and "Latinos" aren't dumb enough to ignore it.