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Guest Northwinds

A couple of eyewateringly familiar quotes from our friends across the channel

"There is no such thing as freely chosen and consenting prostitution," Roselyne Bachelot, the social affairs minister, is quoted by the Guardian as saying. "The sale of sexual acts means women's bodies are made available for men, independently of the wishes of those women."

So the strident feminist extreme view can be heard over there as well. For the record, my own views are that anybody, man or women, who coerces someone else into having sex for money against their will is vile and deserves locking up. I recognise that both here and France will have some unfortunate women in that predicament and support all reasonable attempts by the authorities to tackle the problem. But to declare 100% of prostitutes forced is barking.

And

Many officials agreed there were problems with the nation's current laws, stressing that all prostitution encouraged slavery and trafficking, which 80 percent of the estimated 20,000 sex workers living in France were reportedly victims of.

They also seem to have similar duff statistics. If 4 out of 5 prostitutes in France are really trafficked then the police should be ashamed of themselves for not doing something about it. It's not hard (I assume) to finf a prostitute in France and once they do, if these statistics are right, then they will have an 80% chance of saving a poor girl from a rotten existence. Of course somehow I doubt the truth is anything like 80%.

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Uncle Pokey 141

The French punter and the ladies that entertain them should not be concerned overly, I believe. The French have a delightful way of ignoring legislation*, and in any event it's not clear that there is a significant groundswell of opinion within the country in favour.

Perhaps they will end up with something like we have over her in UK. ie totally useless rules which PC Plod cannot enforce without appearing wanting in relation to prosecuting other offences already committed by those that traffic and coerce.

It rather sounds as though Harriet Harman is a pussy cat compared to one or two of her French sisters,

*Observe, for example, the fact that one cannot purchase Cardinal Red polish here in the UK (due to the lead content). .Pop over to Calais and any corner hardware store will gladly sell you that product. Pokeyacres portals gleam thus.

Uncle Pokey

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Barrack 20

I don't think Holland will be next. The Netherlands legalised prostitution in 2000, even brothels are currently legal in the Netherlands and they're used to it and the open sex trade brings several tourists there. Although the current government of Netherlands contains many out of touch, right-wing Christians, who would love to make paying for sex illegal if they could.

I think it might be a good thing if the French closed down the Pigalle area in Paris around the Moulin Rouge, because I have read many horror stories about how the WGs there are rip-offs. But if France wants to beat the traffickers they need to establish a good, legal sex trade and allow regulated brothels to be set up. However with the outdated attitude the French authorities have about prostitution I don't think there's any hope of this in the near future.

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griffon11 51

I agree it may be like our fox hunting laws - un enforced and unenforceable for a variety of reasons - but it is *very* unhelpful for both punters and WG to make it illegal. Now that the polititians have their headlines, lets hope they kick this one into the long grass. As if they would ever worry about the law themselves even if it were to pass.

OTOH I dont know the current law. It is bad if it is illegal but only the WG is commiting a crime.

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Barrack 20

I've just read a bit about it on wikipaedia. Brothels are illegal in France and the government's official position is that they support the abolition of prostitution. Prostitution is legal in France but all activities around it such as procurement are illegal. In addition Sarkozy signed into law in 2003 legislation making street walking illegal whether by active soliciting or passive soliciting, and introduced the offence of passive soliciting whereby even if a woman dresses and stands in a certain way so as to make someone suspect she is a prostitute she can be deemed as soliciting, arrested and given a heavy fine.

The socialists in France support criminalising the buyer, so prostitutes are caught between the socialists trying to criminalise their customers and the right-wing criminalising procurement etc. The only ray of light seems to be an activist in Sarkozy's party called Chantal Brunel who is the Head of the Equality Office from 2010 onwards. Brunel wants prostitution to be legalised and regulated and she wants the 2003 law scrapped. The sex workers themselves are also campaigning for the 2003 law to be scrapped but some are actively campaigning that they oppose legalisation because they don't want to be limited by state regulations.

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rubens 11

For a long period of history, France used to be renowned for its liberal views on paid sex. The brothels of Paris were once the envy of the civilised world and openly frequented by King Edward VIII among others. However this all stopped suddenly after World War II when a socialist government struck the first blow in this area for "women's rights", and outlawed the brothels

A more recent and serious problem is the low quality of crime drama on French television. As should be clear to most people, the majority of the population (there, as here) have absolutely zero experience of any type of serious crime, and so rely for their information on these subjects on the creative imagination of TV scriptwriters. In France, prostitutes are routinely depicted on TV as drug-addled streetwalkers under the total control of evil and vicious pimps (usually eastern European) and with no free will of their own. Close observation of programmes such as "Spiral" on BBC4 will confirm this.

To compound this, there is also the issue of the latin macho male culture in France (see the very recent and extremely hypocritical pronouncements by Dominique Strauss-Kahn), which is in complete denial of the idea that men should actual need to pay for sex rather than rely on their own animal magnetism and seductive power.

Taken together, these influences provide fertile ground for feminist abolitionists to pursue their policies with minimum objection. We can only hope that sex workers and sensible politicians, as mentioned earlier, are able to counter the media-driven propaganda with the truth, based on their own experiences

Don't imagine either that in the UK we are immune from this type of warped view of the world !

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wanderlust 16

For a long period of history, France used to be renowned for its liberal views on paid sex. The brothels of Paris were once the envy of the civilised world and openly frequented by King Edward VIII among others. However this all stopped suddenly after World War II when a socialist government struck the first blow in this area for "women's rights", and outlawed the brothels

Edward VII, I think, rather than VIII--- had own v. strange sex chair at the Chabanais.

I think the closure of the brothels by Mme Ricard in 1946 had more to do with the fact that the girls had 'collaborated' with the German occupiers than any view on womens' rights.

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rubens 11

Edward VII, I think, rather than VIII--- had own v. strange sex chair at the Chabanais.

I think the closure of the brothels by Mme Ricard in 1946 had more to do with the fact that the girls had 'collaborated' with the German occupiers than any view on womens' rights.

Yes. I meant Edward VII of course, a typo.

I hadn't known about the "collaboration" bit, but it makes sense then that it happened so quickly after the war. There were arguments on the grounds of health as well. A bit too early perhaps for 60s-style feminism, but the communists did support the abolition as a measure against bourgeois morals. It was a far left/right coalition (sounds familiar ...)

Or Fabienne Jamet's Palace of Sweet Sin, which is long out print but possibly may be got secondhand via http://www.abebooks.co.uk------ she was the madame of 122 Rue de Provence, one of the upmarket houses, during the Occupation and gives some insight into the aftermath.

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shyguy09 11

It is a shame that the anti-sex movement is getting it's influence across Europe, shows how much money they have and it's a hell of a lot more then the pro-sex movement. Also you can tell that these people are completely fucking stupid cause they are only focusing on the men paying women for sex part, not the women paying men for sex part, not the women paying women for sex part and not the men paying men for sex part but only the men paying women part. Now knowing the anti-sex movement in France they will do what the they did in Sweden which is to make the bill gender neutral but that is a load of shit cause I have yet to read a report about a woman being arrested for paying a man for sex in Sweden which again clearly shows how biased they are. Seems to me that the world needs a sex positive political movement to only counter the anti-sex religious fucktards but also the man hating gender supremacists who claim to be feminists but they are not and make the movement worldwide much like the Green Party but without the anti-sex movement hijacking it.

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Strawberry 871

It is a shame that the anti-sex movement is getting it's influence across Europe, shows how much money they have and it's a hell of a lot more then the pro-sex movement. Also you can tell that these people are completely fucking stupid cause they are only focusing on the men paying women for sex part, not the women paying men for sex part, not the women paying women for sex part and not the men paying men for sex part but only the men paying women part. Now knowing the anti-sex movement in France they will do what the they did in Sweden which is to make the bill gender neutral but that is a load of shit cause I have yet to read a report about a woman being arrested for paying a man for sex in Sweden which again clearly shows how biased they are. Seems to me that the world needs a sex positive political movement to only counter the anti-sex religious fucktards but also the man hating gender supremacists who claim to be feminists but they are not and make the movement worldwide much like the Green Party but without the anti-sex movement hijacking it.

Probably because the markets you describe are miniscule, or virtually non-existent.