You can watch the local Church channel "ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¥ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â§ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€¦Ã‚Â¸ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£" (of Orthodoxy) in Patras, in which from time to time priests talk about the Jewish influence in the world, the jewish influence in the former Soviet Union and another great number of heavy issues like the New Order. It's actually the official channel of the Metropolis of Patras, so you cannot blame me for believing what is projected through my direct Church.

Ntinos, do you realise that every source of your learning about Orthodoxy which you mention is either the internet or television?

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Ntinos, do you realise that every source of your learning about Orthodoxy which you mention is either the internet or television?

Well, as far as I know...

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I read it a greek newspaper named "ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¸ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡" (=Nation), which was just like you condemning the text of the Protocols as a fraud, but considered the claim about the Czar having it read every Sunday at Church true.

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Also, the great Elder Paissios also agreed that the Zionists are in work, more info on that you can find on "ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…â€œÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â­ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â±ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â±ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¯ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€ Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â³ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂµÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¯ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â·ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡: ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€¦Ã¢â‚¬Å“ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â±ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â¦ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¯ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂµÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€ Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â¦ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â·ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€¦Ã‚Â½ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½, ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂµÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â´ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€¦Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€ Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂµÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡: ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â³ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€¦Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€¦Ã‚Â¡ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â±ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â±ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â´ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¯ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â±". And that would be enough from my part.

Eitherway, if you are an Orthodox Christian and know Greek, perhaps you would be interested to read the book on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion by Archimandrite Charalambos Vasilopoulos. It is quite illuminating.

My referring to internet sites is not because this is my source of information, it is because I'm trying to make it more accessible to you!

Ozgeorge, not believing in what I'm saying is one thing! Accusing me without even paying attention to what I'm writing is a completely different thing!

Oh, do the monks from the monasteries in Australia or the priests during divine Liturgy speak in a similar Christian manner like you? Angry Angry If so I prefer the monks and the priests in Greece. Too bad the Archbishop here (Athens) keeps talking about... "dark servants of the evil trying to root out Orthodoxy from Greece" and the leftwing parties keep mocking him about it... Grin Grin

Hey Ntinos!

Now you know that not ALL the Aussies are like this.

I have dealt with all this in the past ....and yes, from Priests who are Greek Orthodox......There was a great Priest that I found and attented Church for awhile(he has passed away)and he spoke of.....

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"dark servants of the evil trying to root out Orthodoxy from Greece"

And this is how the world will be at the time of the coming of the Antichrist and his servants.

Oz George.......Ntinos is right!

I have also heard that the one that will CROWN the Antichrist will be one of our OWN.....And this should scare all Orthodox Christians ......

Remember ......Who was the one that betrayed Jesus Christ?It was someone Close to Jesus Christ....one of His Disciples....

Anyway........I am in no way saying that all conspiracy sites should be believed.....in fact, many do sound like they are strange and all, but in fact are pretty much actual truths.The devil seeks those with faith and not non believers......

And NO....i dont believe that Aliens (U.F.O'S) ARE actual beings from other planets ...IN FACT they are DEMONS ....all take careIX helen

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A Prudent man foresees evil and hides himself;The simple pass on and are punished.-Proverbs27:12-

I have dealt with all this in the past ....and yes, from Priests who are Greek Orthodox......There was a great Priest that I found and attented Church for awhile(he has passed away)and he spoke of....."dark servants of the evil trying to root out Orthodoxy from Greece"

Let me guess...."Jews"?If Orthodoxy is lost in Greece, it will be because of the nutbags who bring stupid conspiracy theories to her and call them "Orthodox Christianity". And if that is what Orthodoxy becomes in Greece, then Greece is better off without such "Orthodoxy".

I have also heard that the one that will CROWN the Antichrist will be one of our OWN.....And this should scare all Orthodox Christians ......

If you bother to read the scriptures, nothing should scare a Christian: "There is nothing to fear but fear itself", "Perfect Love drives out all fear"....but I suppose you'd miss this if you are obsessed with conspiracy theories.

Anyway........I am in no way saying that all conspiracy sites should be believed.....in fact, many do sound like they are strange and all, but in fact are pretty much actual truths.

Now you're just confusing me. On the one hand you are telling me that we shouldn't believe many conspiracy sites, and on the other hand you're telling me that they are telling the truth......so, I shouldn't believe the truth........Oh...OK

Let me guess...."Jews"?If Orthodoxy is lost in Greece, it will be because of the nutbags who bring stupid conspiracy theories to her and call them "Orthodox Christianity". And if that is what Orthodoxy becomes in Greece, then Greece is better off without such "Orthodoxy".

Try "The Book of the End" - Vladimir Moss (phd theology), tons of Archbishop Averky of ROCOR and St. John of Kronstadt quotes, it's even more full of "anti-semetism" (or whatever you consider it...), prophecies and sayings from the Russian Elders, with tons of bibliography and "racist" quotes that would scare your "Orthodoxy" to death, if the Church of Greece is not good enough for you. I can post huge quotes about the "New World Order", their views on the jewish influence behind the Soviet persecution and lots lots more straight from that book.I guess it also deserves your mocking and irony. Considering that Orthodox Christianity still believes in apologising and considers being impolite and ironical/rude a sin, I really do not believe you have any right to judge Orthodox Christianity in Greece. Other than that, everybody can see how Orthodox your reactions to eleni who just came in are and judge by that.

Anyway, the fact is: it was Russians who invented the Protocols, unless this will probably be simply another piece of history to be swept under the carpet because it doesn't fit with someone's (tunnel visioned) worldview.

And I always thought it was common knowledge that the Tsarist secret police had forged the Protocols. I'm curious whose tunnel visioned world view this doesn't fit in with.

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I don't see what these crack-pot conspiracy theories about Jews have to do with the uniquely stupid belief in the Rapture.

The link is actually stronger than once might expect as both invovle a powerful Jewish control of the world. I came across many sort of hybrid materials that definetly had some influence from the Rapture crowd from similar sources as Ntinos. My American friends in Greece found this amusing as we had all seen this before in a slightly different form.

Another myth the peasants like to propagate. Could you provide some evidence for this absurd claim?

Well if the tsar didnt pay attention to the fact that the jews may have had it in for him, he certainly should have done. The communist revolution that overthrew him was overwhelmingly lead by jews. The names and nationalities speak for themselves, historians do not debate these facts, they just prefer not to mention them. If someone does happen to question the enormous percentage of jews in the communist leadership, it is almost always inevitably answered by the fact that they were the most persecuted. Either way they were not passive little lambs. Funny that when these facts are mentioned people like you rush to suppress them with no evidence but cries of 'hate'. Well maybe you can resist your impulses for one minute, and think about what is more hateful: the slaughter of the tsar and his family, and the subjugation of Russia to communism, or the fact that someone dares to mention in this day and age that jews played a significant role in these events. I challenge you to dispute these straight forward facts. How on earth can it be wrong to point them out, but more importantly how can they not be of any significance?

"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

The information given by Mr. Moss in an interview from 2001 is that his doctorate is in psychology. What documentation might you have that he has a theology degree? Why should he be accepted as an authority?

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Having taken a look at other parts of it, the source is an anti-Black, anti-Jewish, anti-woman, white surpremacist site. It has a "poll" on "exiling Blacks" for instance. Then there is the rather umm "interesting" ideas on what is an "israelite" vs a "Jew", how most of the world is excluded from God's favour as they are not "israelites" i.e. "white Christians" and more.

It is interesting that some on the list have a country/nationality but others are "Jew" as though a genetic link or taint is the "cause" of their deeds. Looking up Trotsky I find that he was born in Ukraine to a non-religious family who were of Jewish descent. How would he then not be "Ukrainian" I wonder.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

What I mentioned about the Czar I read it in a socialist-oriented newspaper in Greece called "Ethnos" (ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¸ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ = Nation) on an article quoting the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" back in August time, so I believe it is correct, since it's actually a very credible newspaper. The stance of the author was similar to ozgeorge's in the issue of the protocols (antisemetism propaganda etc etc). Unfortunately, I cannot back up this statement with more, first of all because I do not keep newspapers for more than a week or two, and second -even if I did still have the newspaper- I do not have a scanner.Also to add, since you might try to get it at me for the whole Protocols issue, I do believe the protocols are a forged piece of propaganda. I do not believe however that the Jewish influence in the christian world is all that clean and that the Church has every right to feel worried about it.

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The information given by Mr. Moss in an interview from 2001 is that his doctorate is in psychology. What documentation might you have that he has a theology degree? Why should he be accepted as an authority?

You are probably right about Vladimir Moss. I did not mention his name however as the source, I mentioned his book. The quotes inside it are to a large extent from Archbishop Averky (ROCOR, Jordanville), so I guess reading the book would give you a more appropriate view on it.

Having taken a look at other parts of it, the source is an anti-Black, anti-Jewish, anti-woman, white surpremacist site.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ It has a "poll" on "exiling Blacks" for instance. Then there is the rather umm "interesting" ideas on what is an "israelite" vs a "Jew", how most of the world is excluded from God's favour as they are not "israelites" i.e. "white Christians" and more.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡

You are totally wrong when you say the list was taken from there. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ I have never heard of the group you mention. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ The list I have given is doubtless found on many websites belonging to groups who have their own dubious motives. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ The list itself is by no means dubious, it is a statement of fact which I notice you have not denied.

It is interesting that some on the list have a country/nationality but others are "Jew" as though a genetic link or taint is the "cause" of their deeds.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡

Those are your words not mine. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ I never said that there was a genetic link that caused their 'deeds' as you put it. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ I just stated fact, you are extrapolating things that dont exist. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Nations also have common genetic links, so what?

Looking up Trotsky I find that he was born in Ukraine to a non-religious family who were of Jewish descent.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ How would he then not be "Ukrainian" I wonder.Ebor

Many atheist Jews still refer to themselves as Jews. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ The fact that he was not a practicing one, does not suddenly make him a member of the indiginous population. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ As the term 'anti-semitism' reveals, the Jews have a common genetic ancestry. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ In many cases, just as with other nationalities/tribes, they maintain a group mentality even if they lose their religion. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Certainly if he and his siblings were Ukranian as you say, it is curious how his sister married another Jew (Lev Borisovich Kamenev, born Rosenfeld). ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ What are the chances of that being a random occurence? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ I study statistics and can tell you that the chances of it being random are small, and pale into insignificance if other cases were taken into account. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Anyway I am getting into details here, the fact of the matter is that for the purposes of the list, those listed as Jewish are of Jewish descent, regardless of their religious beliefs. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡

The thing about the percentage of jews in the Soviet Union was also mentioned by the theologian and parishioner priest in the Patras Metropolia father Konstantinos Kapetanopoulos. He also had quite clear sources, as he presented on his own time on tv, in which he analyses issues about hellenism, orthodoxy and the spiritual state of the world today.

Also, in order not to mess it further with Ebor, since he has a tendency to follow ozgeorge every time I mention anything about the jews or prophecies of the elders, I do not intend to convince anyone on anything. I just write my views on the topic, nothing more.

You are totally wrong when you say the list was taken from there. ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ I have never heard of the group you mention. ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ The list I have given is doubtless found on many websites belonging to groups who have their own dubious motives. ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¯Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ The list itself is by no means dubious, it is a statement of fact which I notice you have not denied.

Interesting though, Serbian Patriot, to see the kind of people who also believe and use your list to spread their ideas.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

The Soviet troops that came through the village in Poland where my family came from were Russians - not Jews. Even if the initial plot of the revolution had been formed mostly by Jews, the Soviet regime never would have lasted almost a century were it not for numerous Russians that supported it. If you are really looking for someone to blame for the Russian Revolution you can start with a long list of incompetent tsars...

[quote author=ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂµÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ link=topic=8181.msg107391#msg107391 date=1139957132]About the long list of Jews involved in Soviet Russia...

The Soviet troops that came through the village in Poland where my family came from were Russians - not Jews.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Even if the initial plot of the revolution had been formed mostly by Jews, the Soviet regime never would have lasted almost a century were it not for numerous Russians that supported it.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ If you are really looking for someone to blame for the Russian Revolution you can start with a long list of incompetent tsars...[/quote]

I agree with your point here, Nektarios. (could that be a sign of the Apocolypse? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ ) ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ For all of the lists of "Jews" what if someone were to just list the evil deeds of "Russians" or another nationality? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ There are Good and Evil in all countries and nationalities. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡

It might be interesting to actually look at the social structures and habits/customs of particular times and places to see what *other* factors might have been in place. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Things like opportunities for education, ill-treatment of one class, group or social strata by another, were people harassed to leave a place or if they stepped beyond proscribed "boundaries" of what a ruling or majority structure thought proper. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Then there are the innumberable cases in History where a group of people are moved to fight against what has become intolerable treatment in one form or another. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Desperation and believing that there is no other way to stop abuse can lead to drastic measures. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡

Accusing one group of Human Beings of Control, Evil and Conspiracies, particularly with innuendo and lies like the "Protocols" and undocumented assertions and half-truths is wrong.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Having taken a look at other parts of it, the source is an anti-Black, anti-Jewish, anti-woman, white surpremacist site.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ It has a "poll" on "exiling Blacks" for instance. Then there is the rather umm "interesting" ideas on what is an "israelite" vs a "Jew", how most of the world is excluded from God's favour as they are not "israelites" i.e. "white Christians" and more.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡

It is interesting that some on the list have a country/nationality but others are "Jew" as though a genetic link or taint is the "cause" of their deeds.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Looking up Trotsky I find that he was born in Ukraine to a non-religious family who were of Jewish descent.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ How would he then not be "Ukrainian" I wonder.

Interesting though, Serbian Patriot, to see the kind of people who also believe and use your list to spread their ideas.

Why is it that people try to cover up history, or dismiss facts simply because they have implications they dislike, or are used by people with ideologies they oppose? If the list/stats/event/etc. is true, they why not accept this and make it known. Then you are more educated and better able to make a decision on the matter. If Jews are responsible for the russian revolution, so what? We could start another Holocaust...but if we were really set on doing that, I doubt we'd need history as an excuse, media and propaganda will probably suffice. Or we can list it with the several other atrocities in history, forget about it, and move on. But, by far, the worst of all possible sins is to respond by stifling the free flow of information, in an effort to condemn future generations to live in ignorance, which is worse than death.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

I never realized a "Jewish conspiracy" was an "historical fact".....I must be reading the wrong propaganda....

I dont know if a jewish conspiracy was fact or not, but that isn't what was presented, a list of Communist party members with ethnicity is what was presented. If you have an objection with the lists, give evidence for why they are inaccurate; dont try to dismiss them with either an ad hominem against the people who compiled them or a guilt by association argument.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

I dont know if a jewish conspiracy was fact or not, but that isn't what was presented, a list of Communist party members with ethnicity is what was presented. If you have an objection with the lists, give evidence for why they are inaccurate; dont try to dismiss them with either an ad hominem against the people who compiled them or a guilt by association argument.

Firstly, you assume it's "historical fact" because it appears typeset on a website. Have you checked this out yourself?Secondly, what is the agenda behind such a list? If I listed the religion of all those involved in the sex scandals of a certain monastery in the Boston area, 100% of them would be Orthodox Christians. I could conclude therefore that Orthodox Christianity is involved in an plot to promote homosexual sex in monasteries worldwide... Here's an historical fact: the second largest group of Communist Party members throughout the world were once Orthodox Christians- is Orthodoxy a Communist plot?

« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 10:43:18 PM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Firstly, you assume it's "historical fact" because it appears typeset on a website. Have you checked this out yourself?Secondly, what is the agenda behind such a list? If I listed the religion of all those involved in the sex scandals of a certain monastery in the Boston area, 100% of them would be Orthodox Christians. I could conclude therefore that Orthodox Christianity is involved in an plot to promote homosexual sex in monasteries worldwide? Here's an historical fact: the second largest group of Communist Party members throughout the world were once Orthodox Christians- is Orthodoxy a Communist plot?

And as orthodox we share blame for what happened and we also paid dearly for our offences. I dont try to let anyone off the hook. From the family names and what I do know about a very few of those people the list seems accurate enough. It seems more reasonable to believe the list to be accurate than a fabrication. But if you truly believe it to be a fabrication, then by all means demonstrate this fact, demonstrate to me where it is inaccurate.

And as far as your monastery analogy, it's a non sequitur, the list refers to the ruling members of the Communist party. If the list refered to the communist party leaders of a medium sized city in russia under the main communist government, then your analogy would be valid, but of course that's not what they were refering to. Deal with the facts, not the politics.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Interesting though, Serbian Patriot, to see the kind of people who also believe and use your list to spread their ideas.

Come now, let us be quite clear, either refute the plain facts or accept them. This has nothing to do with belief, either the facts are wrong or they are right. Let not play games about how other people use this list to spread their own ideas. That is their responsibility, but the list itself is historical fact. Lots of people manipulate history for their own ends, so what?

[quote author=ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂµÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ link=topic=8181.msg107391#msg107391 date=1139957132]About the long list of Jews involved in Soviet Russia...The Soviet troops that came through the village in Poland where my family came from were Russians - not Jews.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ [/quote]Well its hardly a surprise that the red army was compromised for the most part by Russians is it? The list referred to leaders and instigators of the revolution.[quote author=ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂµÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ link=topic=8181.msg107391#msg107391 date=1139957132] Even if the initial plot of the revolution had been formed mostly by Jews, the Soviet regime never would have lasted almost a century were it not for numerous Russians that supported it.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ If you are really looking for someone to blame for the Russian Revolution you can start with a long list of incompetent tsars...[/quote]No doubt there are many to blame, Orthodox and non-Orthodox. But that is exactly my point, people seem unwilling to admit ANY jewish involvement. If I were to speculate as to why this irrational rejection of facts were the the case, I could only conclude that it is as a result of a guilt trip induced by years of western media propaganda. Why else would the topic be taboo, and why else would the Jewish holocaust during WW2 achieve some kind of religious significance in the secular west. The western media does not even dare to recognise the Armenian holocaust by the Turks as 'A' holocaust, yet the Jewish holocaust is referred to as 'THE' holocaust.

If I listed the religion of all those involved in the sex scandals of a certain monastery in the Boston area, 100% of them would be Orthodox Christians.

Well since you havent made clear what monastery you are referring to, I can only assume that it is an Orthodox one. It therefore logically follows that if there were any sex scandals there involving monks or clergy, there would be a 100% chance of an Orthodox Christian being involved. What an awful analogy. Compare this to the proportion of Jews in the population of the Russian empire, and find the probability that out of the total of 61 members of the executive committee, 41 were Jews. It doesnt take a statistician to tell you that it is less than 100% as in your analogy. In fact it is closer to 0% than it is to 100%.

lol!! ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ I vote for "reason and charity".ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ But since Charity is a virtue, does that stop it from being an "evil" conspiracy?

Live dangerously, maybe.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ and radical like this:

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." Ebor

Why is it that whenever we are on the topic of the Jews, where it is suggested that they were not all innocent little lambs to the slaughter, someone always has to start invoking scriptural references to love. Nowhere in that quote does Jesus say repress the truth, and let noone be responsible for their actions, so that you may love one another. Historical fact has nothing to do with love.

More importantly have you checked this out for yourself? Stop going round in circles.

I can't be bothered. But I think that if you're gonna present it and make public statements for which you will give account on the Day of Judgement, it might be in your interests to check it out first.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

But that is exactly my point, people seem unwilling to admit ANY jewish involvement.

Ah, but that's a misleading turn of phrase. What does "Jewish involvement" mean? Does it mean that some of those involved were Jews, or that specifically Jewish organizations were involved? It is laughable to deny the first, in a sense. Yet even then one stumbles over the confusion between Jews as a religiously identified people, and Jews as an ethnically identified people.

But Jews here and Jews there do not add up to a Jewish-based conspiracy, and even so-- even if most of the perpetrators of the communist revolution were Jewish, this doesn't add up to a Jewish conspiracy! A long list of names of dubious origin and questionable accuracy isn't much in the way of proof either.

Nobody denies that there was a Bolshevik conspiracy, and it's clear that it was heavily populated with Jews. (See this Wikipedia article for a pretty good summary.) Does the presence of a lot of Jews in the Manhattan project make it a Jewish conspiracy too? I hardly think so; it's more of a function of Jewish value of the intellectual, compounded by Hitler driving these men to Britain and the USA.

But that is exactly my point, people seem unwilling to admit ANY jewish involvement.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡

I am unaware of anyone who says that there were *no* persons of Jewish ancestry or background involved in the Russian Revolution. Saying that such people were not the *only* ones involved or part of conspiracy behind it is not the same thing as saying that there was *no* such involvement. It is not an all-or-nothing, binary situation. Not agreeing with you're view is not the same thing as denial.

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Why else would the topic be taboo, and why else would the Jewish holocaust during WW2 achieve some kind of religious significance in the secular west.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ The western media does not even dare to recognise the Armenian holocaust by the Turks as 'A' holocaust, yet the Jewish holocaust is referred to as 'THE' holocaust.

To you maybe it seems to have a "religious" significance. To others why would such an enormity and Evil thing not be something to remember as a horrifying example so that it wouldn't happen again? Just to go over the basics it was not only Jewish people but thousands and thousands of others who were slaughtered in the concentration camps: Poles, Slavs, Russians, Gypsies, RCs and Protestants who dared to resist (ever hear of Bonhoeffer? or Maximillian Kolb?) and many more. Earlier on, the physically and mentally disabled were gotten rid of: the deaf, those with epilepsy, Down Syndrome and other "defects". Perhaps I read other things then you do, but this has never been hidden that the Nazi regime killed more then just people who were of Jewish ethnicity.

And btw, the treatment of the Armenians by the Turks in the early 20th century has not been forgotten. Maybe it's because I knew some people whose ancestors fled, but the information is available and not hidden.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I dont know if a jewish conspiracy was fact or not, but that isn't what was presented, a list of Communist party members with ethnicity is what was presented.

Well, that brings a question to mind. You say that it was a list of party members by "ethnicity". Whereas, I read the "Russian" and "Polish" as *nationality*. So is the relation what country or area people claim as their origin/place or is it "ethnicity" or "religion"? Then there's "What motivated these men to do what they did? Did they have reasons to revolt against what they saw as oppressive? or to just get *their* side into Power?

Some time back, when Madeline Albright, raised RC then became Episcopalian, found out that her ancestors had been Jewish there were people who then accused her of being part of such a "Jewish" conspiracy to run things. She is a naturalized American citizen, not raised in any Jewish tradition, and not religiously practicing as a Jew. But her ancestry was enough for some.

Maybe I've just been unfortunate to have seen more of this sort of thing. It's been popular amonst a subset of Fundamentalist/Apocalyptic Christianity in the US for over 30 years.

Ebor

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Well, whatever popular opinion may be today it was certainly believed by European and American leaders at the time that the Russian Revolution was indeed Jewish led.

For example:In Richard Pipes'(Harvard prof/historian) book The Russian Revolution we see that Kaiser William II looked upon Russia as having been "turned over to the vengeance of the Jews".

In his essayZIONISM versus BOLSHEVISM: A STRUGGLE FOR THE SOUL OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE Winston Churchill writes:

In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing.

And

It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.

A United States Army intelligence report from inside Russia after the Revolution and sent in March 1919 by US military intelligence officer Captain Montgomery Schuyler reads:

it is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning, guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greasiest type...

And

384 commissars there were 2 Negroes, 13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter number 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of the Imperial Government.

Historian Richard Pipes also points out the huge Jewish role in the revolution. His explanation, as far as I understand it, for the high percentage of Jews involved is the fact that Jews were the most ill treated in Russia, so why not rebel. I don't happen to buy that argument, but he's a hell of a lot smarter then me... then again, he has a job to keep.

I'd also recommend Professor Kevin McDonald's book Culture of Critique for better understanding Jewish involvement in what we would understand to be movements and schools of thought which challenge the existence of Western Christian civilization.

To you maybe it seems to have a "religious" significance.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp; To others why would such an enormity and Evil thing not be something to remember as a horrifying example so that it wouldn't happen again?

But in the response of several European governments to the (a) holocaust, they have committed an evil as bad as any Hitler ever attempted, and far worse than the holocaust. They do not seem to be content with merely killing a man, they want to deprive him of his thought and reason; they are committing the greatest sin of Hitler, the burning of books, the eradication of the free flow of information, the destruction of the freedom of speech and of the press, and in turn they seek to undermine the freedoms of thought and reason, to make us no higher than the animals.

While I disagree with those who deny the holocaust, on grounds of historical evidence not because of their political philosophy (though I disagree with that too, but it is unrelated to whether or not the holocaust occured), I support, in the fullest and most fundamental way, their right to teach and publish such things, as a right that is fundamental to our dignity as human. These are rights more precious than life, and rights that we should be more than willing to sacrifice our lives and even the lives of others in the defence of. The fact that the citizens of these countries are not up in arms about these open assults against the freedoms of speech and press shows how depraved these nations are. Unfortunately, I do not expect any more from the citizens of our once-free federation, we are not the country of our forebearers.

Well, that brings a question to mind.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp; You say that it was a list of party members by "ethnicity".ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp; Whereas, I read the "Russian" and "Polish" as *nationality*.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp; So is the relation what country or area people claim as their origin/place or is it "ethnicity" or "religion"?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp; ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp;Then there's "What motivated these men to do what they did? Did they have reasons to revolt against what they saw as oppressive?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp; or to just get *their* side into Power?

Well, Russian and Polish seem to me to be just as much ethnicities as nationalities; howerver, the list could be rewritten to read 'Jew' and 'Gentile' if that would make things clearer? As far as ethnicity vs. religion in Judaism, I think it is an artificial distinction that was placed on them from the outside. Ethnicity is probably the more broad term, and with this ethnicity there are religious and non-religious Jews. The very few 'christian jews' are not really a consideration, for they generally are ostracized from their community and absorbed into the 'gentile' community. As far as their motives, that's simple, they were communists, they desired power and envied those who had it...but this is true of all communists, jewish or otherwise.

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Some time back, when Madeline Albright, raised RC then became Episcopalian,ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp; found out that her ancestors had been Jewish there were people who then accused her of being part of such a "Jewish" conspiracy to run things.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp; She is a naturalized American citizen, not raised in any Jewish tradition,ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp; and not religiously practicing as a Jew.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦nbsp; But her ancestry was enough for some.

Which was an absurd claim considering her history and upbringing, and I'm not saying I agree with these people. I simply believe in their right to present their posistion, and if they present actual facts everyone has a responsibility to take those facts seriously, even if they lead to a conclusion that they are uncomfortable with.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 03:13:38 PM by greekischristian »

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

I can't be bothered. But I think that if you're gonna present it and make public statements for which you will give account on the Day of Judgement, it might be in your interests to check it out first.

Well if you cant be bothered, then restrain yourself from going round in circles using various unsuccessful tactics to undermine the list, including concocting ridiculous analogies.

But Jews here and Jews there do not add up to a Jewish-based conspiracy, and even so-- even if most of the perpetrators of the communist revolution were Jewish, this doesn't add up to a Jewish conspiracy!

You are missing one key word here: NECESSARILY. Jews here and Jews there do not NECESSARILY add up to a Jewish conspiracy. But we cannot, as you would have us do, exclude any possiblility of this being the case.

Nobody denies that there was a Bolshevik conspiracy, and it's clear that it was heavily populated with Jews. it's more of a function of Jewish value of the intellectual, compounded by Hitler driving these men to Britain and the USA.

Im sure it took much organisational and intellectual skill to carry out the revolution.

ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Perhaps I read other things then you do, but this has never been hidden that the Nazi regime killed more then just people who were of Jewish ethnicity.

I agree that it has never been hidden, but you cannot deny that when THE holocaust is referred to, it is synonimous with Jewish suffering. For instance in the states, Jewish organisations actively prevent other groups being represented in holocaust memorial museums. They seem to want a monopoly on suffering to futher their own agenda.

And btw, the treatment of the Armenians by the Turks in the early 20th century has not been forgotten.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Maybe it's because I knew some people whose ancestors fled, but the information is available and not hidden.

Ebor

Your ignoring what I said. I didnt say that the information is so hidden that it can barely be found. What I said was that the mass media refer to the Jewish holocaust of WW2 as 'THE holocaust', whereas they refuse to refer to the Armenian genocide as even 'A holocaust'. Notice that they refer to one genocide as if it is the only holocaust in history, whereas with another one they refuse to even call it a holocaust.

Historian Richard Pipes also points out the huge Jewish role in the revolution. His explanation, as far as I understand it, for the high percentage of Jews involved is the fact that Jews were the most ill treated in Russia, so why not rebel.

Jews in Russia did suffer terribly under Tsar Alexander III (father of Tsar St. Nicholas II), along with the poor of other Faiths as well (including Orthodoxy).After the assassination of of his father, Alexander II in 1881, there was a wave of pogroms in Russia against the Jewish community under Alexander III. This led to a large increase in Jews leaving Russia. Of these, more than 90 per cent settled in the United States.Under a law introduced by Alexander III, all Russian Jews were forced to live in what became known as the Pale of Jewish Settlement. Exceptions were made for rich business people, students and for certain professions. The Pale comprised the ten Polish and fifteen neighbouring Russian provinces, stretching from Riga to Odessa, from Silesia to Vilna and Kiev.The October Revolution was a reaction to oppression and reactionary government (Alexander III put a stop to the reforms of his father, Alexander II who was the Liberator of the Serfs two years before emancipation in the US).Incompitent government is incompitent government, whether the leader of the government is Orthodox or not- and those oppressed by it will inevitably rise up against it. And if we are surprised by this, then we need to study a bit more political science. There is no such thing as "Divine Right of Kings", and people know this now. Even being anointed by the Church does not make a King immune to making bad decisions or prevent him becoming a tyrant.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 04:42:28 PM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.