This is a discussion on Seeing Mucked Cards within the online poker forums, in the Live Poker section; I was playing a live tournament a little while ago, reached a showdown (not all-in), and I lost and mucked my cards. My opponent asked

Seeing Mucked Cards

I was playing a live tournament a little while ago, reached a showdown (not all-in), and I lost and mucked my cards. My opponent asked the dealer if he could see my cards and she said yes and flipped them over.

I was playing a live tournament a little while ago, reached a showdown (not all-in), and I lost and mucked my cards. My opponent asked the dealer if he could see my cards and she said yes and flipped them over.

Is this right? Could he ask to see my cards?

Yes he paid to see them. He paid the rights to see what he beat.

#3

October 8th, 2017, 2:48 PM

AMTF1988

Poker at: 888 Poker

Posts: 348

Originally Posted by twizzybop

Yes he paid to see them. He paid the rights to see what he beat.

Fair enough. I've only ever seen it done on this occasion so I wasn't aware it was correct.

Thank you for clarification

#4

October 8th, 2017, 3:21 PM

vinnie

Online Poker at: ACR

Game: Anything

Posts: 1,035

It is 'allowed' but it is also considered rude to ask to see mucked cards. It is like calling time on someone. It is within your rights, but it should only be done when there are exceptional reasons for it. Curiosity isn't [generally] considered a good enough reason. Someone who does this frequently will definitely be unpopular at the card room.

#5

October 8th, 2017, 4:17 PM

bablovod

Poker at: PokerStars

Posts: 1,502

is this correct? if I fold, it is not to see them or only with my consent

#6

October 8th, 2017, 4:21 PM

Vlad symrak

Online Poker at: Poker Stars

Game: Holdem

Posts: 421

Yes it is possible, but this rule they do not know everything.First time for everything!!!!!

#7

October 8th, 2017, 4:27 PM

zannie27

Poker at: Betonline

Game: PLO8

Posts: 86

re: Poker & Seeing Mucked Cards

Originally Posted by AMTF1988

I was playing a live tournament a little while ago, reached a showdown (not all-in), and I lost and mucked my cards. My opponent asked the dealer if he could see my cards and she said yes and flipped them over.

Is this right? Could he ask to see my cards?

Absolutely not!! I play live in the Chicagoland areas and Indiana and have played on Vegas and never seen anything like that.. I probably would have called the Pit Boss to inquire about that.. What State where you playing in and at what casino?? That sounds pretty sketchy..

#8

October 8th, 2017, 4:36 PM

AMTF1988

Online Poker at: 888 Poker

Posts: 348

Originally Posted by zannie27

Absolutely not!! I play live in the Chicagoland areas and Indiana and have played on Vegas and never seen anything like that.. I probably would have called the Pit Boss to inquire about that.. What State where you playing in and at what casino?? That sounds pretty sketchy..

It was in the UK, Grosvenor Casino. I was put off but I didn't do anything about it at the time

#9

October 8th, 2017, 4:53 PM

Trick1988

Poker at: pokerstars

Game: hold'em

Posts: 254

only with your consent

#10

October 8th, 2017, 4:59 PM

twizzybop

Game: holdem

Posts: 2,380

Originally Posted by vinnie

It is 'allowed' but it is also considered rude to ask to see mucked cards. It is like calling time on someone. It is within your rights, but it should only be done when there are exceptional reasons for it. Curiosity isn't [generally] considered a good enough reason. Someone who does this frequently will definitely be unpopular at the card room.

What better reason then to gain information. Any and all information no matter the significance of that information is mine. You chased that gut shot on the flop, turn and then we checked, checked the river. I paid for that information.
You re-raised me on the turn with a full bluff and I called to check check. I paid for that information. You have bottom pair, I paid for that information.
You called a 3X-5XBB raise with rags and we got to the river. I paid for that information. You can try to muck all you want but if you don't want me to have information then learn how to fold. Mucking cause you don't want me and others to have that information is way way way more sketchier then me asking to get that information you are trying to hide.

#11

October 8th, 2017, 5:02 PM

vinnie

Poker at: ACR

Game: Anything

Posts: 1,035

Originally Posted by zannie27

Absolutely not!! I play live in the Chicagoland areas and Indiana and have played on Vegas and never seen anything like that.. I probably would have called the Pit Boss to inquire about that.. What State where you playing in and at what casino?? That sounds pretty sketchy..

Originally Posted by Trick1988

only with your consent

Robert's Rules of Poker tend to be the governing body of rules for most card rooms, and unless they have specific written rules that override them, these should be the rules you look at.

SECTION 3: The Showdown: 5

Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

Unless the house rules specifically state that this is not permitted, you should always assume it is allowed. It is not sketchy or incorrect. A pit boss would only inform you of what the rules are. It is extremely rare, because it is not considered good form. That doesn't mean it is not permitted.

#12

October 8th, 2017, 5:12 PM

twizzybop

Game: holdem

Posts: 2,380

Any player who has been a legal part of the game can ask to see a called hand, even if the cards have already been mucked. Abuse of this privilege can result in denial by the dealer. When a winning player asks to see a mucked hand, that hand will be considered live, and the winning player can lose their pot. When any other players ask to see a folded hand, the hand will remain dead.
When players go all-in or check on the final round, the first to act is the first to present their hand. When wagering takes place in the final round, the last player to bet or raise will be the first to show their cards. When a player holds a hand that is likely the winner, they should show that hand immediately to speed play. When a side pot is involved, those playing in that pot should show their cards before those who are only involved in the main pot.

#13

October 8th, 2017, 5:15 PM

vinnie

Poker at: ACR

Game: Anything

Posts: 1,035

I am not sure what your point is here. It is exactly what I have been saying.

As for why, if not for information, it is an anti-colluding rule. It is in place to keep the game fair. To stop two players from raising a third out, and one just folding and mucking to give his friend the pot.

Edit: This is the reason it is considered rude. You're implying that the person who mucked is cheating. Could you abuse this rule to gain information? Yes, but it was made to catch cheaters. And, there are people who understand that meaning and will take offense to it.

#14

October 8th, 2017, 5:21 PM

vinnie

Online Poker at: ACR

Game: Anything

Posts: 1,035

re: Poker & Seeing Mucked Cards

Originally Posted by twizzybop

What better reason then to gain information. Any and all information no matter the significance of that information is mine. You chased that gut shot on the flop, turn and then we checked, checked the river. I paid for that information.
You re-raised me on the turn with a full bluff and I called to check check. I paid for that information. You have bottom pair, I paid for that information.
You called a 3X-5XBB raise with rags and we got to the river. I paid for that information. You can try to muck all you want but if you don't want me to have information then learn how to fold. Mucking cause you don't want me and others to have that information is way way way more sketchier then me asking to get that information you are trying to hide.

You realize that this attitude is counter-productive to keeping weak players happy and contributing to your game, right? Don't shame the fish. Don't make them feel publicly embarrassed for calling down with weak and unwinnable hands. Don't make them feel stupid for chasing gutshot straights. They might stop doing those things, and you make a lot of money when they do them.

You won. Be happy enough with that. It would be great to also see their cards, but let them save a little bit of face. It is more +EV in the long run.

#15

October 8th, 2017, 5:23 PM

twizzybop

Game: holdem

Posts: 2,380

Originally Posted by vinnie

I am not sure what your point is here. It is exactly what I have been saying.

As for why, if not for information, it is an anti-colluding rule. It is in place to keep the game fair. To stop two players from raising a third out, and one just folding and mucking to give his friend the pot.

LOL I dunno, you just beat me to the punch. I don't normally go looking on the internet for rulls. I figure most know the rules, so I was copying and pasting and you just beat me to the punch. I am sorry...

I just like to remember and know the rules of any game I am playing. I admit looking em up isn't my thing. LOL then again another card game I play has a boatload of rules with extensive comprehensive rules if need be and remembering every single one, at times I have to look up. Again sorry just a habit as well

#16

October 8th, 2017, 5:31 PM

twizzybop

Game: holdem

Posts: 2,380

Originally Posted by vinnie

You realize that this attitude is counter-productive to keeping weak players happy and contributing to your game, right? Don't shame the fish. Don't make them feel publicly embarrassed for calling down with weak and unwinnable hands. Don't make them feel stupid for chasing gutshot straights. They might stop doing those things, and you make a lot of money when they do them.

You won. Be happy enough with that. It would be great to also see their cards, but let them save a little bit of face. It is more +EV in the long run.

First I don't point fingers or laugh at them at all. No name calling or anything, I don't say anything of the sort. I was taught long time ago, cards read themselves. I have even see dealers misread the cards but also know they are human and I don't finger point/laugh at them either.

However I also like my other card game will help the new player along by showing them simple things to actually help them as well become better players. Even though I do like to compete, however I play to have fun and enjoy playing. Competing comes second over that. I am not really out for the money but the sheer enjoyment and fun that comes from it.

But to me, yes rules are rules and should be followed

#17

October 8th, 2017, 5:48 PM

vinnie

Poker at: ACR

Game: Anything

Posts: 1,035

Originally Posted by twizzybop

LOL I dunno, you just beat me to the punch. I don't normally go looking on the internet for rulls. I figure most know the rules, so I was copying and pasting and you just beat me to the punch. I am sorry...

I just like to remember and know the rules of any game I am playing. I admit looking em up isn't my thing. LOL then again another card game I play has a boatload of rules with extensive comprehensive rules if need be and remembering every single one, at times I have to look up. Again sorry just a habit as well

I thought you were quoting the extra, like it was saying something different than what we already knew. I didn't realize you hadn't seen my post. Probably posted it while you were looking.

Originally Posted by twizzybop

First I don't point fingers or laugh at them at all. No name calling or anything, I don't say anything of the sort. I was taught long time ago, cards read themselves. I have even see dealers misread the cards but also know they are human and I don't finger point/laugh at them either.

However I also like my other card game will help the new player along by showing them simple things to actually help them as well become better players. Even though I do like to compete, however I play to have fun and enjoy playing. Competing comes second over that. I am not really out for the money but the sheer enjoyment and fun that comes from it.

But to me, yes rules are rules and should be followed

The rule allows for all hands to be shown, but does not demand it. Outside of teaching someone to play, which would normally be a home-game situation, I don't offer advice to other players. You never know how they will take it or how the rest of the table will feel about you helping another opponent.

You may never say something or point it out, but most people know they shouldn't be chasing gut-shot draws. They know they shouldn't call with K-5 offsuit preflop. You don't need to say anything, they already know. And, exposing their bad play to the table is going to embarrass them. Even if they don't know, you can't stop another player at the table from saying something about their play.

It is just counter productive to a good atmosphere.

#18

October 8th, 2017, 7:26 PM

MstrBlast3r

Online Poker at: ACR

Game: Holdem

Posts: 218

Originally Posted by AMTF1988

I was playing a live tournament a little while ago, reached a showdown (not all-in), and I lost and mucked my cards. My opponent asked the dealer if he could see my cards and she said yes and flipped them over.

Is this right? Could he ask to see my cards?

Yep ... he is allowed ... most won't ask as it is generally consider bad etiquette.

#19

October 9th, 2017, 10:43 AM

marakhovskii

Posts: 513

This is a sign of poor parenting, but it is within the rules

#20

October 9th, 2017, 12:14 PM

melodyman169

Online Poker at: PokerStars

Game: NLHE

Posts: 149

It isn't fair on my mind. It can ruin your reputation at the table.

#21

October 9th, 2017, 1:59 PM

twizzybop

Game: holdem

Posts: 2,380

re: Poker & Seeing Mucked Cards

LOL I didn't say teach/show at the table. Would it not bother you if the person who mucked his/her cards actually had you beat? It wouldn't bother you knowing that somewhere in a poker hand that you won but didn't have the winning hand?

Yet let's not follow the rules because it isn't demanded?

Good atmosphere is following the rules. That is just the way it is plain and simple

#22

October 10th, 2017, 12:55 AM

OzExorcist

Online Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: wild deuces

Posts: 8,500

Originally Posted by vinnie

It is 'allowed' but it is also considered rude to ask to see mucked cards. It is like calling time on someone. It is within your rights, but it should only be done when there are exceptional reasons for it. Curiosity isn't [generally] considered a good enough reason. Someone who does this frequently will definitely be unpopular at the card room.

^ this is 100% correct.

Originally Posted by bablovod

is this correct? if I fold, it is not to see them or only with my consent

Originally Posted by zannie27

Absolutely not!! I play live in the Chicagoland areas and Indiana and have played on Vegas and never seen anything like that.. I probably would have called the Pit Boss to inquire about that.. What State where you playing in and at what casino?? That sounds pretty sketchy..

Originally Posted by Trick1988

only with your consent

What could be causing the confusion here is that this hand was at showdown. If OP had folded before the showdown then absolutely, villain has no right to see the cards unless OP wants to show them. But once the hand goes to showdown, they're entitled to see the cards as they've "paid to see".

#23

October 19th, 2017, 8:34 PM

subaru16162

Poker at: Pokerstars

Posts: 149

Originally Posted by AMTF1988

It was in the UK, Grosvenor Casino. I was put off but I didn't do anything about it at the time

In the UK it is a standard at showdown to see the opponents cards and not bad etiquette unlike in the US. Also played at the grovesnor, genting casino, aria and dusk till dawn.

#24

October 19th, 2017, 8:41 PM

emeraldsrus

Posts: 27

I believe if you are in early position the player after you can get to see your cards at showdown.

#25

October 19th, 2017, 9:03 PM

TheNutz4You

Poker at: ACR/BETONLIN

Game: NLHE

Posts: 1,466

in certain situations I see it as ok, but if done repeatedly then I think it becomes an issue.

#26

October 19th, 2017, 9:10 PM

AMTF1988

Online Poker at: 888 Poker

Posts: 348

Originally Posted by emeraldsrus

I believe if you are in early position the player after you can get to see your cards at showdown.

That is correct. The hands are shown in order from first to act with dealer button showing last. Any player that doesn't beat the previous hand(s) can muck, and as we've found it in this thread, even if cards are mucked at showdown the other player(s) still have a right to see your cards if they so wish. In Pokerstars the hands are mucked in this order, but the previous hand history will show the hands mucked at showdown

#27

October 20th, 2017, 1:26 AM

OzExorcist

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: wild deuces

Posts: 8,500

Originally Posted by emeraldsrus

I believe if you are in early position the player after you can get to see your cards at showdown.

Originally Posted by AMTF1988

That is correct. The hands are shown in order from first to act with dealer button showing last. Any player that doesn't beat the previous hand(s) can muck, and as we've found it in this thread, even if cards are mucked at showdown the other player(s) still have a right to see your cards if they so wish. In Pokerstars the hands are mucked in this order, but the previous hand history will show the hands mucked at showdown

That's not technically correct, unless UK casinos use a different rule to the rest of the world, and I think you're also confusing showdown order with the right to see cards at showdown.

When it comes to the showdown, if players aren't turning their cards over voluntarily then the first person who has to show is the player who made the last aggressive action. For example if there was a bet and a call on the river, then the player who made the bet has to turn over first. It doesn't matter what position that player was in relative to the button. I haven't bothered looking at it on Stars recently but I'd be surprised if they didn't do the same thing.

Position is also irrelevant when it comes to being allowed to see a mucked hand after the showdown. If you were in the hand, you're allowed to ask to see cards that went to showdown. Just don't abuse the privilege.

#28

October 20th, 2017, 4:14 AM

t1riel

Online Poker at: Not Banned

Game: Holdem

Posts: 6,847

re: Poker & Seeing Mucked Cards

It depends. Did he call you or you called him? If he called you, he has a right to see them. In fact if he called you, you have to show your hand first. If you called him, he does have any grounds to see it.

#29

October 20th, 2017, 5:11 AM

skaterick

Poker at: ignition

Game: mostlyholdem

Posts: 668

I like to ask to see the mucked cards , for information , and as a needle ! At my favorite casino in San Diego, Ca , the local rule only allows those remaining in the pot at the river to see all cards . I worry that unethical behavior may be encouraged .

#30

October 20th, 2017, 5:16 AM

skaterick

Online Poker at: ignition

Game: mostlyholdem

Posts: 668

By the way , other Indian casinos and card rooms in my area do allow all seated players who request it to see mucked cards , though they discourage it since it may cause tension and slows the game down . They rake us hard here , and want to get every dollar possible !

#31

October 20th, 2017, 4:19 PM

wilpinsi

Poker at: poker stars

Game: holdem

Posts: 1,314

An all-in showdown is said to be uncontested if all but one player discards their closed hands without showing them. The last player
remaining with live cards will win the hand and will not be required to display their cards to receive the pot. Players who are no longer with their cards in showdown or who have delivered them closed to the dealer without displaying them, lose the right or
privilege they may have to ask to see other hands. Hands that are displayed at the request of another player are considered live and compete for pot.
* If there was a bet on the river, any payer has the inalienable right to see the aggressor's cards on demand ("the hand he paid to see") a
that the payer is still in possession of his letters. The Tournament Director's discretion will be applied to all other requests such as to see the
hand, or if there are no bets on the river.

#32

October 20th, 2017, 5:37 PM

jesus133

Posts: 105

Of course he has the right to see his letters, to call the whole right to see them; that's why they say pay to see

#33

October 23rd, 2017, 2:04 AM

OzExorcist

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: wild deuces

Posts: 8,500

Originally Posted by wilpinsi

An all-in showdown is said to be uncontested if all but one player discards their closed hands without showing them. The last player
remaining with live cards will win the hand and will not be required to display their cards to receive the pot. Players who are no longer with their cards in showdown or who have delivered them closed to the dealer without displaying them, lose the right or
privilege they may have to ask to see other hands. Hands that are displayed at the request of another player are considered live and compete for pot.
* If there was a bet on the river, any payer has the inalienable right to see the aggressor's cards on demand ("the hand he paid to see") a
that the payer is still in possession of his letters. The Tournament Director's discretion will be applied to all other requests such as to see the
hand, or if there are no bets on the river.

I assume you're quoting this from somewhere, where does it come from?

Because there's a couple of things in there that contradict the normally-accepted rules...

#34

October 23rd, 2017, 2:53 AM

fordman427

Online Poker at: carbon poker

Game: NLH or Mixed

Posts: 488

While it may be his right I find it disrespectful to other players because I'm sure he would not want his mucked cards being seen

#35

August 10th, 2018, 9:56 PM

lsbenn

Poker at: Bet Online

Game: Holdem

Posts: 225

re: Poker & Seeing Mucked Cards

"Any player who has been dealt in can request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that can be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player's hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins."

This was from poker rules I looked up online. I have seen this happen in poker rooms except for the last line. Most places I have heard of players asking to see the mucked cards: the dealer will take the cards and touch the muck which makes them dead and then flips the cards over.

To me this is still improper poker etiquette and if you do it to me I will definitely return the favor.