Kudos on the new design Charles. I had the opportunity to check it out in Bellevue last week and it looked and sounded fantastic!! Everyone at the demo was more than impressed. Best of luck with the launch!

Kris, thanks for the kind words. Coming from someone with your background and experience that really means a lot!

I think you could pull of the a $10K universal BR if it had the sonic qualities of its CDP cousins.
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mmiles

In the world of hi-end A/V in this day and age with so many good and great company's who are giving the consumer the biggest bang for their buck ever in the history of A/V,it just seems plain ludicrous to spend 10 grand on a blu-ray player that in reality will have at best, a subtle PQ increase.

With the Oppo at the helm the extra $9500 in savings would go a long way into the software bank or hardware upgrades that do improve handily on the home theater experience. Of course, audio jewelry does have its place,if one is so inclined.

With the Oppo at the helm the extra $9500 in savings would go a long way into the software bank or hardware upgrades that do improve handily on the home theater experience. Of course, audio jewelry does have its place,if one is so inclined.

The Ayre will be targeted to people who have already invested in high-end gear, the kind that makes $9500 look like an incremental expense. If there is an increase in quality, it will worth it for this kind of system.

That could be a DCI projector based system for example. If you spend $100K to project the best possible image on a very wide screen, you don't want to skimp on any other component under the pretext that other people with lesser systems consider the improvement as subtle.

it just seems plain ludicrous to spend 10 grand on a blu-ray player that in reality will have at best, a subtle PQ increase

The thing about this forum that sucks is that you have so many anonymous posters with hidden agendas. Who is "markrdee" and what is your affiliation or business or experience?

1) You have never seen this player, so how can you say that it will have "at best, a subtle PQ increase"? Kris Deering (we all know who he is, and what his experience is, and what his affiliations are) saw it in action where it was compared against the top-of-the-line Pioneer Blu-Ray player. Obviously he didn't spend nearly enough time to do anything like a full review, but he said that it "looked fantastic" and that "everyone at the demo was more than impressed".

2) You are ignoring the fact that it also has two-channel playback of all audio formats that is better than most (if not all) $30,000 players CD players.

3) You are ignoring the fact that it has a proprietary USB audio input that will allow you to connect a PC and create a state-of-the-art music server that possibly has better sound quality than any other solution at any price.

But if you would rather spend your money on bigger and bigger subwoofers or couch vibrators or whatever the hell you think "improves handily on the home theater experience", go right ahead. This product is made for people that want the absolute best picture and sound quality, and also enjoy listening to music as well.

Like I said in a previous post, the Oppo at $500 is a killer bargain that will more than satisfy most people. Nobody is going to put a $10,000 Blu-Ray player in a system with a $500 LCD they bought at Costco. I think people are quite capable of figuring out for themselves what player is a good fit for their system and their budget without snide comments from some half-drunk stranger sitting on the barstool next to you.

Edit: I believe Robena had one of our D-1 DVD players and is quite familiar with how much better the picture from that unit was compared to any other DVD player. We have a pretty good track record to stand on.

It helps to have some experience with a product before throwing rocks at it.

1) You have never seen this player, so how can you say that it will have "at best, a subtle PQ increase"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Hansen

This is not the kind of thing that shows up in before and after still shots that are JPEG compressed to post on the internet.

Wouldn't one have to expect a subtle increase at best if captured images can't even reflect it? For the record I don't believe all 1080p24 images are created equal but I do feel static differences (to a large degree) are not difficult to spot with compressed images. Here are a few I captured (among several players) and I feel they reflect subtle differences between the players.

Edit: I believe Robena had one of our D-1 DVD players and is quite familiar with how much better the picture from that unit was compared to any other DVD player. We have a pretty good track record to stand on.

Yes, you're absolutely right.

The D1 480p output was at the time much much better than the 960p one of the then top of the line Faroudja quadrupler.

But that was a long time ago, and now I use the D1 as a transport for CDs only.

SD has become unwatchable for me 5 years ago, a time where some of your representative here in France told me that they did not think that HD would ever take off.

I tried to replace it recently with an oppo, but even though the difference (as a transport for CDs) was very subtle (I could not have made the difference in a short DBT test), over a few days of usage, the opo was just not tolerable for that. I was no longer wanting to sit and listen.

I must say though that DVD needed processing, and it was tough to do it correctly at the time. BR 1080p/24 on HDMI does not need processing, so I'll be curious to see if you can manage to get even a subtle increase in quality. I'll certainly try your new flagship to find out by myself.

The thing about this forum that sucks is that you have so many anonymous posters with hidden agendas. Who is "markrdee" and what is your affiliation or business or experience?

1) You have never seen this player, so how can you say that it will have "at best, a subtle PQ increase"? Kris Deering (we all know who he is, and what his experience is, and what his affiliations are) saw it in action where it was compared against the top-of-the-line Pioneer Blu-Ray player. Obviously he didn't spend nearly enough time to do anything like a full review, but he said that it "looked fantastic" and that "everyone at the demo was more than impressed".

2) You are ignoring the fact that it also has two-channel playback of all audio formats that is better than most (if not all) $30,000 players CD players.

3) You are ignoring the fact that it has a proprietary USB audio input that will allow you to connect a PC and create a state-of-the-art music server that possibly has better sound quality than any other solution at any price.

But if you would rather spend your money on bigger and bigger subwoofers or couch vibrators or whatever the hell you think "improves handily on the home theater experience", go right ahead. This product is made for people that want the absolute best picture and sound quality, and also enjoy listening to music as well.

Like I said in a previous post, the Oppo at $500 is a killer bargain that will more than satisfy most people. Nobody is going to put a $10,000 Blu-Ray player in a system with a $500 LCD they bought at Costco. I think people are quite capable of figuring out for themselves what player is a good fit for their system and their budget without snide comments from some half-drunk stranger sitting on the barstool next to you.

Edit: I believe Robena had one of our D-1 DVD players and is quite familiar with how much better the picture from that unit was compared to any other DVD player. We have a pretty good track record to stand on.

It helps to have some experience with a product before throwing rocks at it.

Charles,thank-you for the kind words. From my understanding the bd format is as good as it it was ever intended to be with the technology that has been developed to date.Unless you can show side by side comparisons [a/b] that concludes that what I say is non factual,I will then be happy to change my post. I mean you and your company no disrespect.My agenda is to buy into a component that gives me the most bang for the buck,whether the cost is a little or alot,according to my ears and eyes.

And please take note that I did not make mention of any other format that your machine may have on board.My comments are for what the pq has to offer only.Now, if you don't mind, I think Costco has a new 19 inch TV on sale that this half drunk enthusiast needs to be looking into...

Quote:

It helps to have some experience with a product before throwing rocks at it.

As a side note Charles,I have had some experience with your product,your top shelf c-5xe sacd player.While I did not purchase said product,it never the less had its virtues.

Wouldn't one have to expect a subtle increase at best if captured images can't even reflect it?

There is a difference between "subtle" and "important".

I doubt that anybody would look at any picture from any properly functioning DVD or Blu-Ray player and expect to see "dramatic" differences.

But to some people, "subtle" improvements *are* "important".

To others, they are not. Our player is not intended for someone who thinks a "subtle" improvement is not "important".

Take a look at Robena's post just below. He put the Oppo into his system and used *just as a CD transport* didn't notice any significant changes when he inserted into his system. But after a few days he found it unlistenable.

So this is a case where "subtle" can be *extremely* "important". The difference between enjoying listening to music and not enjoying listening to music is extremely important. If you don't enjoy listening to it, you may as well not have it. And I would guess that Robena has upwards of $25,000 invested in his system. What is the point of having a $25,000 system if you don't listen to it because it is not enjoyable?

I'm not going to post any "before and after" photos. When the unit comes out, take a look for yourself. If you like it and think that it's worth the money then buy it. If you don't, then don't.

It's an expensive product and it's not for everybody. The point of this thread is that it is *not* a rip-off. Unlike at least one other manufacturer, we are not simply taking an Oppo and putting it into a different case so that it will match the rest of your electronics and then charging 6x as much.

As to whether it is worth the money *to you*, only you can decide that. But I think it would be foolish to make a $10,000 purchasing decision on the basis of a few JPEG's posted on the internet.

My agenda is to buy into a component that gives me the most bang for the buck

Then I would strongly recommend that you purchase an Oppo.

In your mind, you have already decided that there are no meaningful differences in the image produced by different Blu-Ray players. And the Oppo uses the ABT2010 scaling chip for use with SD discs. There isn't a better scaling chip available. It is built extremely well and has a great feature set, quick loading times, and a nice backlit remote. The company provides excellent customer service and has free firmware upgrades on their website that you can install yourself. And it is only $500.

Our player has nowhere near that much bang for the buck. Buy the Oppo.

It's an expensive product and it's not for everybody. The point of this thread is that it is *not* a rip-off. Unlike at least one other manufacturer, we are not simply taking an Oppo and putting it into a different case so that it will match the rest of your electronics and then charging 6x as much.

As to whether it is worth the money *to you*, only you can decide that. But I think it would be foolish to make a $10,000 purchasing decision on the basis of a few JPEG's posted on the internet.

I think roughly 99.99% agree with the above. The whether one can justify the purchase based on its performance, aesthetics, etc is completely a personal decision based on any number of deciding factors. However understanding how the player performs differently than other players is what interests me.

I'm not your target market. I once spent over 15k on a projector and learned my lesson real quick... this stuff becomes obsolete before your credit card statement arrives! But at the same time I have a passing interest in seeing how these upgrades actually alter the performance of the player.

In your mind, you have already decided that there are no meaningful differences in the image produced by different Blu-Ray players. And the Oppo uses the ABT2010 scaling chip for use with SD discs. There isn't a better scaling chip available. It is built extremely well and has a great feature set, quick loading times, and a nice backlit remote. The company provides excellent customer service and has free firmware upgrades on their website that you can install yourself. And it is only $500.

Our player has nowhere near that much bang for the buck. Buy the Oppo.

Well, not only in my mind, but from what I have experienced in side by side comparisons also,with my own eyes. I can see color or contrast variances[which can be built into any machine] but nothing that would be considered earth moving.As you state,not all people are in the market for a $10,000 BD machine.Now for audio playback,me thinks that to be a whole nuther ball game.

I didn't even bother to check into Blu-Ray, but it is undoubtedly even more expensive. By purchasing a complete, licensed player with all royalties paid, we can "modify" it to our heart's content without paying a dime. Plus we are not contractually obligated to observe the BDA's restrictions.

Hi,
This statement caught my eye - does that mean, for example, that you wouldn't have to enforce region coding

The Esoteric DV60 is a CD/SACD/DVD player that list for $6K. Well we all know what you can buy a DVD player for these days...

When a customer brought thier own CDs and DVDs thier jaw dropped. The DV60 was almost BluRayish.

The question in my mind is not that the Esoteric or in this case Ayre better but by what marging and is the buyer willing to pay X TIMES for the last 10-20% in performance.

CH, good luck with your new project and I'll be sure to stop in at CES.

If you liked the Esoteric, you would have been floored by the Ayre D-1xe. The only difference between the Esoteric and any mainstream DVD player was the fact that the Esoteric had a linear power supply instead of the normal switching supply. Don't get me wrong -- that makes a big difference, as you saw for yourself.

But we were doing far, far more things than that with the D-1xe. One year at CES we displayed it with a $40,000 Panasonic 30" widescreen direct-view CRT studio production monitor. The picture quality of that combination was absolutely mind boggling.

We should have a nice display at the upcoming CES. We have one of the last batch of 50" Kuro Elite monitors, and although we won't be able to have a fully darkened room, I'm sure that you will be very happy with the picture quality.

As for the sound we will have our KX-R and MX-R preamp and monoblock amps, along with the Vandersteen Model 7 loudspeakers. Plus we will have the DPS turntable we import from Germany along with our custom 3-phase power supply and a new DPS tonearm along with our P-5xe phono stage. So the sound shouldn't be too shabby either.

Look for us in the Venetian towers. It is one of the top two or three floors that only have about a half-dozen exhibits on each level.

What have you compared, and exactly why would you expect to see any meaningful differences between the players you compared?

Quote:

What have you compared,

I have compared Sony's and Pioneer's.

Quote:

and exactly why would you expect to see any meaningful differences between the players you compared?

That is the point of this conversation Charles.There is no difference in PQ in the players I have seen.

Your quote.

Quote:

I guess what I'm saying is that there are other ways to evaluate picture quality that to take screen shots and try to put them side-by-side to look for differences in the details of the picture....

As with things audio,one can be from the camp of being either subjective or objective. The key in my opinion is to have a balance of both,in order to have a better understanding of what you are seeing or hearing. If the mind needs to see something that is not there or may think something may be there, well, our own perceptions will always win out. Being a long time audiophile I can understand that sometimes we need or want to hear[or see] a difference. Thats OK by me.I have learned lessons(ie;spent lots of $). My own concern is whats real and whats perceived in this hobby. Cerebral manifestation can be as real as one sees fit to justify ones own desires.

If you liked the Esoteric, you would have been floored by the Ayre D-1xe. The only difference between the Esoteric and any mainstream DVD player was the fact that the Esoteric had a linear power supply instead of the normal switching supply. Don't get me wrong -- that makes a big difference, as you saw for yourself.

Like many they use the AD and ABT processors and chipsets but they jazz up the blacks 1080p output. The VOSP transport is a beast too.

I can see color or contrast variances[which can be built into any machine] but nothing that would be considered earth moving.

Let me clarify a bit. I can and do see subtle differences as in my above post states.What I mean when I speak of all blu-ray players having the same pq is that I do not see any better detail,resolution,3d depth,clarity or any number of other nomenclature that would have one machine lead the pack over all others. The standards have been already set by the powers that be. Until a new format comes our way what we have now is what all machines that do bd will do, within their defined format,[except small variances like your pictures indicate].

Let me clarify a bit. I can and do see subtle differences as in my above post states.What I mean when I speak of all blu-ray players having the same pq is that I do not see any better detail,resolution,3d depth,clarity or any number of other nomenclature that would have one machine lead the pack over all others.

Now that you say there are differences I agree 100%. Previously you stated there were no differences. What you think or feel about these differences is largely 100% opinion and as such I learned a long time ago you can't debate opinions.

Now that you say there are differences I agree 100%. Previously you stated there were no differences. What you think or feel about these differences is largely 100% opinion and as such I learned a long time ago you can't debate opinions.

That is the point of this conversation Charles.There is no difference in PQ in the players I have seen.

And that is my point. Why should there be any difference in PQ between a Sony and a Pioneer for Blu-Ray? There is no scaling. There is no signal processing required (although it is available for people that want to screw up their picture). They both have noisy switching power supplies. They both have the audio and the video connected on the same ground and fed with the same noisy switching power supply. They probably even have the same video decoding chip to get the data off the disc. So of course they will have the same picture quality. Why shouldn't they?

But to therefore conclude that all Blu-Ray players will share the same picture quality as those two brands is a leap of logic that is completely unwarranted.

Like many they use the AD and ABT processors and chipsets but they jazz up the blacks 1080p output. The VOSP transport is a beast too.

The DV-50 was just a re-badged Pioneer. The only difference (besides the case) was a linear power supply and a replacement top cover for the plastic transport mechanism.

The DV-60 is very similar to the DV-50. They have a thing that they call VSOP (Vertically Stabilized Optical Pickup), but I have never seen anything that tells me in plain English just what it is supposed to do or how it is different from a $79 Pioneer.

The big difference is the linear power supply. Remember that EVERY circuit, analog or digital, is simply a modulated power supply. So if you don't have a good, clean power supply, there is no way you can have a good clean signal. That applies to video and audio, analog and digital.

The DV-60 is very similar to the DV-50. They have a thing that they call VSOP (Vertically Stabilized Optical Pickup), but I have never seen anything that tells me in plain English just what it is supposed to do or how it is different from a $79 Pioneer.

Well DcS, EMM Labs and Wadia must love them $79 transports...

I'm sure you have but if not go to thier room at CES and look at the transports out of the box on display. They sure don't look like $79 Pioneers.

From what I've seen [ and by no means do I have a 1/1000th of your knowledge and expertise ] they a well built assembly using quality materials.

As for waht they do and how they do it well that is a question for the boys in Tokoyo [TEAC].

This thread is turning into the typical pissing contest seen throughout the forums between high and mid end products. The bottom line is that Oppo is a Camry and the Ayre is a Lexus, each owner feels that they are getting the better value, both vehicles get you to where you want to go. At the end of the day, the Lexus owner feels that their car looks better in the garage with the garage door open (and it arguably does) and the neighbor with the Camry feels that they are ahead of the game in terms of value. You can dissect the performance all you want, I don't see a winner here.

And that is my point. Why should there be any difference in PQ between a Sony and a Pioneer for Blu-Ray? There is no scaling. There is no signal processing required (although it is available for people that want to screw up their picture). They both have noisy switching power supplies. They both have the audio and the video connected on the same ground and fed with the same noisy switching power supply. They probably even have the same video decoding chip to get the data off the disc. So of course they will have the same picture quality. Why shouldn't they?

But to therefore conclude that all Blu-Ray players will share the same picture quality as those two brands is a leap of logic that is completely unwarranted.

And with that Charles, when the machine that you are developing for Blu-Ray playback becomes available for audition,I will make a point of auditioning it for comparative purposes. Time will tell...

I'm sure you have but if not go to thier room at CES and look at the transports out of the box on display. They sure don't look like $79 Pioneers.

From what I've seen [ and by no means do I have a 1/1000th of your knowledge and expertise ] they a well built assembly using quality materials.

As for waht they do and how they do it well that is a question for the boys in Tokoyo [TEAC].

You are completely confused.

The transport in the DV-50 and the DV-60 are NOT the same transports used in the top-of-the-line Esoteric players. Esoteric currently has four levels of transports:

a) Their top level transport used in the UX-1 and variants. This is a beast. The disc motor is buried in the 12 mm thick steel top bridge, driving the disc from above. OEM cost is $4000, with a minimum purchase of 50 units ($200,000 total). But it is no longer available as the laser has been discontinued. Esoteric is saving the few left for their own products.

b) Their second level transport is very similar and is just scaled back a hair. The disc motor is still in the top, but it is scaled back to 10 mm. Still a great transport. OEM price is $3000. There are only two companies that use this. dCS uses it in the transport of their $60,000 stack and Spectral uses it in their 4000 model CD-only player.

c) It is a huge leap down from the above two transports. They make one transport that is completely conventional (drive motor on the bottom, just like every other transport in the world) with the exception of a metal tray. OEM price is $800. I don't know anybody that uses this.

d) Their cheapest transport is made entirely of plastic and also has the drive motor on the bottom. The only unusual feature is the clamping disc on the top is several times larger than normal. OEM price is $500. This is used in the $20,000 single-box dCS player.

I don't know what EMM uses. Years ago Wadia used a CD-only version of the massive transport with the motor on top. But that has been discontinued for six or eight years, which is why Wadia no longer makes the 861. Their cheaper player started out with the Pioneer "Stable Platter" mechanism, but when that was discontinued they switched to a conventional Philips transport.

Edit: Oops! I forgot about the transport used in the DV-50 and DV-60. These are below the four transports listed above. The DV-50 used a stock Pioneer transport with a new "bridge" that holds the clamping disc. I'm not sure about the DV-60, but it is quite similar and a clear step below the four transports listed above (and shown in the photos in the link).