Hi. I label myself a Satanist, as I follow the philosophies layed down in The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey...Or more so, the philosophies layed down in The Satanic Bible seem like they were written for me. I have read TSB a number of times, however I am just recently beginning to get more into the organized side of the religion...Mainly the cause of my deconversion from Xtianity...In recognition of the importance of religion in human life, and in direct opposition to Xtianity.

Now, after all that rambling, I am just curious about the Magic of Satanism.

I know that with this philosophy we can accept and deny anything we wish...

Maybe I just don't understand the Satanic Magic...But to me it seems moderately silly to put faith in a magic. I understand that it is working with energy, but all the magic talked about in TSB seems like witchcraft, and with a religion so based in skepticism, it seems strange that it dives into magic.

Maybe someone could explain to me how they can deny a divine creator, which I do, but strongly believe in magic and witchcraft, which I do not.

I know what I don't understand, but for some reason it is hard to really put into the right words.

It just seems to me that the belief in the mystical magic seems slightly rediculous when it goes beyond theatrical ritual, used as a way to keep ones mind focused.

Again, like I said, I may just not fully understand what Satanic Magic is.

Quote:Maybe I just don't understand the Satanic Magic...But to me it seems moderately silly to put faith in a magic.

Then you've misunderstood the text.

Quote:I understand that it is working with energy, but all the magic talked about in TSB seems like witchcraft, and with a religion so based in skepticism, it seems strange that it dives into magic.

Because the term "intellectual decompression" is used in the Satanic Bible, as well as a good description of how to suspend disbelief, you clearly still haven't understood the primary text, despite reading it three times.

Magic is when one enters a subjective state in order to achieve objective results. It is the externalization of your inner self ("Satan") in order to make is workable, pointful and powerful.

Sensitivity, timing, balance and practice all make up key components when performing magic.

Additionally, it's used as a stylised psychodrama which is, above all else, fun and achieves real results.

It seems to me that you haven't understood the text, haven't bothered to practice a ritual and don't seem to see why you would.

While that's perfectly fine, you're missing the point on a large chunk of what Satanism is, the active part, if you will.

Because of that, I'm nudged into thinking that Satanism isn't really for you.

Perhaps your question would be best answered by temporarily suspending judgement and giving it a try yourself. You don't have to believe in anything to perform rituals, though it helps if you believe in yourself and your ability to affect the world you live in.

See if you get results. If you get repeated results then you can say magic is real. It is something that you alone can figure out, by doing it rather than by thinking about doing it.

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Please delete my content! I am no longer affiliated with COS or any other religion. I know you have the ability to remove my content, so please do so. I won't be returning.

Quote:I know that with this philosophy we can accept and deny anything we wish...

Actually no, Satanism does not mean "anything goes". It has dogma. The dogma however is based off something very tangible: man's carnal nature. For example, you can't call yourself a Satanist and simultaneously deny that man is an animal.

The two necessarily and sufficient components of a religion (and Satanism is indeed a religion) are dogma and ritual. Which brings us to the second part:

Quote:Maybe I just don't understand the Satanic Magic...But to me it seems moderately silly to put faith in a magic.

I think The Satanic Bible is pretty clear about magic, how it's defined, what role it plays in the religion, and why it's there in the first place (recall a quote about how Satanism "fills the large grey void between religion and psychiatry"? Or "intellectual decompression"?)

Quote:I understand that it is working with energy, but all the magic talked about in TSB seems like witchcraft,

What's unsatanic about witchcraft? Did you miss the fact that there's an entire book called "The Satanic Witch"? If you think it's all about burning candles of different colors and ignoring everything else in the world, you need to re-read the section on lesser magic.

Quote:and with a religion so based in skepticism, it seems strange that it dives into magic.

I consider myself a skeptic, and additionally I have an altar set up in my bedroom. I see no hypocrisy in that. Furthermore, I don't call blindly dismissing ritualized expression (a tool almost as old as mankind itself) as comepletely useless to be an act of "skepticism". Obviously, you're not as stern about it as other people I've seen; I do give you credit for asking honestly about the topic.

Quote:Maybe someone could explain to me how they can deny a divine creator, which I do, but strongly believe in magic and witchcraft, which I do not.

Because no deity is necessary in order to see these things as useful tool. What does deism or creationism have to do with the supernormal and unconventional tricks-of-the-trade?

Quote:Again, like I said, I may just not fully understand what Satanic Magic is.

Is it safe to say then that you don't understand more than 40 pages of The Satanic Bible? Surely, you picked up some of the concepts in the rest of the book, right?

Your insistence on calling it a philosophy rather than a religion speaks worlds about you. The magic and the aesthetic are what makes it a religion, if you reject these then it you are missing out on the best part .

My belief in magic comes down to it being a focus for human willpower, one of the strongest forces in the world.On another note, I do live action role playing, where I get to run around in a field wearing a black robe and priests vestments which is a great deal of fun to me. One point about Satanic ritual that I have found, is that it isn't that different, of course, the former may look silly and the latter deadly serious, but both are quite fun to do.

_________________________My Heaven is your hell
- Lordi
"He was the sort of person who stood on mountaintops during thunderstorms in wet copper armour shouting 'All the Gods are bastards.'"
- Terry Pratchett

Satanic magic is not mystical. Nothing spirtitual is going to jump out and change events. For instance, calling on the Infernal Names will not automatically make your worst enemy disintegrate into sand.

Understanding magic is vital to being a Satanist. Whether you use it all the time, sparingly, or not at all, it's still very important to know how it works. After that, it's up to you to apply magic.

The applications of magic is what separates Satanism from a "mere philosophy" to the Religion that it is.

Magic does not require faith; it’s about experimenting and getting results.

There is nothing mystical about that.

I find it strange that someone could accept the philosophical aspects of Satanism, but not the ritualistic aspects. The idea of magic was appealing to me long before I ever read The Satanic Bible , and I was super excited about Dr. LaVey’s brand of magic (the only real magic, in my opinion) because it made perfect sense to me. I have experienced things in my life on many occasions which I later realized were very much related to the same magical concepts set forth in The Satanic Bible. So I was more than a little eager to give real magic a try.

I agree with what others have suggested. Try it out for your self and see what happens.

“ Herein you will find truth—and fantasy. Each is necessary for the other to exist; but each must be recognized for what it is .”- Anton Szandor LaVay (from The Satanic Bible)

Edited by Malathion (02/16/0710:59 AM)

_________________________
They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

I can admit that I am new to the "religion" of Satanism. In the past, it was a philosophy that meshed so well with me, that I held to it...Then I found Xtianity. A year and a half of near hell. My mind was tormented, and looking back, the things I believed and tried forcing down peoples throat, were rediculous.

I think that my strong and rediculous beliefs in Xtianity that have since been destroyed and vomited upon are what keep me from being able to accept the magic side of Satanism. Someone said that if I don't understand the magical side of Satanism, then I dont understand some 40 pages of TSB. That may be true, however, I would still consider myself a Satanist because the rest of TSB, the philosophy side, speaks so loudly to me. It rests tightly hand in hand with my natural logic.

I understand the magic ritual as fun psychodram, and as a way to focus your energy towards your goals, and how keeping your energy focused on your goal can work positive... What I don't get is how it is believed that the focusing of your energy can change things to your will. Im not trying to put Satanic Magic down, or sound like I am attacking it...I am definitely not knocking it, just reaching to understand it...

"What I don't get is how it is believed that the focusing of your energy can change things to your will. Im not trying to put Satanic Magic down, or sound like I am attacking it...I am definitely not knocking it, just reaching to understand it... "

People who try to understand things ask questions rather than make statements. You aren't really acting like a person who is trying to understand anything.

Quote:I think that my strong and rediculous beliefs in Xtianity that have since been destroyed and vomited upon are what keep me from being able to accept the magic side of Satanism.

Two points here, sir:

1) If you consider Christianity to have anything to do with Satanism, you're mistaken. You're applying Christian doctrine to an application of Satanic magic, which means you're (perhaps subconsciously) considering those who perform magic to be "Devil Worshippers".

You're wrong.

2) There is no magic "side" to Satanism; there is one complete, fully functional and eclectic whole. One that you either resonate with, or you don't. And before you start to think that I'm closed minded and not looking at it properly, what is Satanism without magical application?

Common sense, carnality and cynicism; traits which many humans, not Satanists necessarily, share. Satanism without magic is indiscernable from atheism in most aspects and I honestly get the feeling you'd be better off in that camp.

Quote:What I don't get is how it is believed that the focusing of your energy can change things to your will.

Because your own statement answers your question, there is no way that I can put it that will make it simpler for you. I know you mean well, but Satanism doesn't seem to be for you. And until you can understand that magic is a pivotal part of Satanism, a self transformative practice, you will never get it.

Quote:Maybe I just don't understand the Satanic Magic...But to me it seems moderately silly to put faith in a magic.

There is no faith in Satanism - and none is necessary in the understanding (or application) of Satanic Magic when the results speak clearly for themselves. The text is clear. Your approach in reading it apparently is wrong; maybe askew due to your xian past.

As others have suggested - don't knock it until you try it.

Skepticism is a good thing. But as has been stated time and time again - Satanism is a religion and part of this religion is ritual Magic.

Now, I will gladly lay down my club and step away from this dead horse.

Edited by ThaDeej (02/16/0706:29 PM)

_________________________"Good and Evil liveth only in men's minds,"Ragnar Redbeard

No I don't equate magic or witchcraft with devil worship, on any level.

The reason I feel the connection to Satanism is because of the connection I feel to "Satan". He represents, to me, the carnal man, and acceptence without judgement, and with him representing man, to me, he represents complete self acceptence. Accepting yourself, your desires, your lusts, and the things that bring you joy...happiness in indulgence...not compulsion. That is why I call myself a Satanist and not just a mere athiest.

In all reality, the reason I can consider myself a satanist without fully believing in the ritual and magic, as more than just a way to focus your mind and free yourself of barriers that trap your mind, is because, just as a buddhist holds buddah in high asteem and as the archetype of what they follow...Satan holds that position in my mind. He represents to me the path that I follow. Perhaps my kind of Satanism isn't LaVeyin Satanism, but I do call myself a Satanist because that is my archetype.

I am not going to rub your nose in your own **it, but it seems you are misunderstanding quite a bit here.

From what I see here it appears that you are trying to "believe" and put "faith" into the equation. Why?

Is the Satanic Bible the only one of Dr. LaVey's works you own?If so, I would suggest purchasing the rest of his works and study them in detail. Also, this message board is massive. There is an abundance of knowledge here take advantage of it.

Magic and Ritual are very personal. Something that can't be handed to you. Stop "believing" and keep reading.

That is exactly how I feel about Satanism; as a philosophy it seems to be saying exactly what I have always thought about the world and other people, in a very well thought out and rational way, but a a religion is doesn't seem to be much better or well thought out than any of the others. One of the main reasons I have been an Atheists all my life is because I am a strong believer in naturalism, that all things can be explained by the laws of nature and there is no such thing as the supernatural. But to me magic seems to completely go against these rational principals - the same principals that drew me to the philosophy behind Satanism. There is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no reason to believe in magic other than blind faith.

So until someone can give me some proof that magic does work Satanism will remain as just a philosophy to me - a very good philosophy, but a philosohy none the less. And I think there must be many more 'potential Satanists' out there that share this same view, due to the type of intelligent person that the philosophy of Satanism appeals to.

Quote:Someone said that if I don't understand the magical side of Satanism, then I dont understand some 40 pages of TSB.

No, I was pointing out rather the opposite. The Book of Lucifer, as central to the book as it may be, still only makes up about 60 pages of the entire book (less than that if you leave out its last chapter, "The Black Mass", as it's not strictly part of the "philosophy side"). I was incorrect about the initial figure of 40, but regardless, the point is that it only makes up a fraction of the book. As I said in an article I wrote not too long ago (for The Ninth Gate magazine), there's a reason why the book is much longer than that. To say "I don't understand the magic part" is to throw away over half of the book. And if you extend that to throwing away "The Satanic Witch" and "The Satanic Rituals", then it begins to suspiciously look like claiming to accept a religion where you throw away half of its canon.

Look, I've seen the same question and the same claims countless times before. "How can you have that magic stuff in there if Satanism is supposed to be about rationality and realism?" Ritual is a TOOL. And again, ritualized expression has been with humans forever. To quote the book, "Man needs ceremony and ritual, fantasy and enchantment".

Quote:I understand the magic ritual as fun psychodram, and as a way to focus your energy towards your goals, and how keeping your energy focused on your goal can work positive...

Then what's your hang-up?

Quote:What I don't get is how it is believed that the focusing of your energy can change things to your will.

Quote: There is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no reason to believe in magic other than blind faith.

I know I'm going back over ground already covered in this thread - but all I can say is reread the appropriate sections of TSB and try it for yourself.

Quote:So until someone can give me some proof that magic does work Satanism will remain as just a philosophy to me - a very good philosophy, but a philosohy none the less. And I think there must be many more 'potential Satanists' out there that share this same view, due to the type of intelligent person that the philosophy of Satanism appeals to.

I don't think anyone here will try to 'prove' to you that magic works - it really is a 'hands on' thing. You try it a few times, and if you get results, then, at least for yourself, what more 'proof' do you need?

Quote:I don't think anyone here will try to 'prove' to you that magic works - it really is a 'hands on' thing. You try it a few times, and if you get results, then, at least for yourself, what more 'proof' do you need?

It is perfecectly justifiable to say you don't belive in something just because it goes against everything you know, without actually trying it. After all, I could tell you jumping off the Empire State Building won't kill you...

Quote:but a a religion is doesn't seem to be much better or well thought out than any of the others.

If that's the case, then it would seem that Satanism isn't for you.

Quote:One of the main reasons I have been an Atheists [sic]all my life is because I am a strong believer in naturalism, that all things can be explained by the laws of nature and there is no such thing as the supernatural.

Yeah, and?

Quote:But to me magic seems to completely go against these rational principals - the same principals that drew me to the philosophy behind Satanism. There is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no reason to believe in magic other than blind faith.

You said you read TSB "from cover to cover". But to me it sounds like you completely missed the boat on the Book of Belial.

Quote:So until someone can give me some proof that magic does work Satanism will remain as just a philosophy to me -

Your view on Satanism one way or another has no bearing on whether or not Satanism is a religion. It IS a religion. That is a fact. It is a clearly defined philosophy with dogma and organized ceremony. That, by definition, is a religion.

As for requiring "proof", first and foremost, what do I care? It's not like Satanism is out to get converts. Second of all, how can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience?

Have you ever performed the standard Satanic ritual described in the book? If not, then how do you expect anybody to take you seriously when you say you're "looking for proof"? Reread the definition of "magic" as its given in the book.

Quote:I think there must be many more 'potential Satanists' out there that share this same view, due to the type of intelligent person that the philosophy of Satanism appeals to.

I prefer to call that group "uncreative, unimaginative atheists with no organization skills".

Quote:It is perfecectly justifiable to say you don't belive in something just because it goes against everything you know, without actually trying it. After all, I could tell you jumping off the Empire State Building won't kill you...

But, unless you 'believe' something 'bad' will happen to you if you give magic a go what have you got to lose?

...And if I didn't believe jumping off a high building would probably kill me (despite the evidence availible of numerous others who have tried it and died) I would be at liberty to give it a go.....

What I find so deliciously ironic about all this is the fact that -- as so many others have painstakingly pointed out -- no "blind faith" of any kind is required, but rather scrupulous pragmatism, instead.

Satanic magic is not a question of "belief" or "disbelief", but a question of what works and what doesn't work.

Satanists practice Satanic magic because it benefits them to do so.

It's quite logical, really. And hey, nobody's saying you have to do something you don't want to. That's your business.

However, quite a few people are pointing out the fact that if you wish to dismiss Satanic magic without knowing what it actually is, you're doing so out of ignorance, not because you possess some superior grasp of the subject.

I recommend studying the matter more attentively.

What you discover may pleasantly surprise you.

_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

Quote:As for requiring "proof", first and foremost, what do I care? It's not like Satanism is out to get converts.

I'm only asking for some information, and this seemed like the best place to come to.

Quote:Second of all, how can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience?

Have you ever performed the standard Satanic ritual described in the book? If not, then how do you expect anybody to take you seriously when you say you're "looking for proof"? Reread the definition of "magic" as its given in the book.

Can you not see the hypocrisy here?

Atheist: "Prove God exists"Christian: "How can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature impossible to disprove? I don't need to."

Atheist: "Prove magic exists"Satanist: "How can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience. I don't need to."

Atheist: "Prove God exists"Christian: "How can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature impossible to disprove? I don't need to."

Atheist: "Prove magic exists"Satanist: "How can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience. I don't need to."

So now you're accusing me of being a hypocrite? Do you even know the definition of hypocrisy? How, exactly, am I "saying one thing, and doing something different"? Are you by any chance just another one of those atheist trolls who likes coming on to a messagboard to play the "find the loophole" game for cheap self-esteem boosts?

Regardless, the analogy here is flawed. Christians have an agenda. I don't care whether or not other people have an understanding of how Satanism defines and uses the concept of "magic". And I'm certainly not telling people that something bad is going to happen to those who don't. Furthermore, it IS about subjective experiences here. Trying to "prove" what I get out of organized ritual makes as much sense as trying to "prove" that my favorite food is sushi.

I am, however, going to give my views on the subject when I'm on a privately-run messagboard for discussing Satanism.

You CAN take a completely psychological view on magic, and still find it to be a useful tool. There are lots of Satanists who do so. But instead, you've decided to be like the countless other self-righteous "atheists" out there who throw the whole concept away, ignorantly dismissiong the whole thing as a "waste of time" (only to probably move on to playing video games or watching TV for 3 hours). I'm seriously starting to doubt that you even read the book now.

Quote:Atheist: "Prove magic exists"Satanist: "How can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience. I don't need to."

Indeed, nobody owes you proof of anything.

"Proof" is something only you can decide, because only you can determine what is required to prove something to your satisfaction.

My advice: be skeptical and don't believe anything just because someone tells you to believe it. Prove it to yourself, on your terms, and -- very important -- never forget you could be wrong.

Of course, you don't need to take my advice. Just sayin'.

Actually -- and again, the irony is thick here -- Satanic magic can most definitely produce results which are not merely subjective.

How? It depends. If you prefer think of it as the consequences of subconscious mental conditioning, you can. If you prefer to think of it as the action of arcane, dreadful forces of unspeakable eville, you can.

Hell, if you prefer to think of it as the Great Fairy What Sits In The Sky granting your every wish, you can.

The fact remains that if you express a desire for something to happen and it does, regardless of how it happened, it still happened.

That's not "blind faith" or anything of the kind.

It's just an observation of fact -- an observation which can prove quite rewarding to those willing and able to apply its logical corollaries.

You don't have to be a Satanist to do so, but there are plenty of Satanists who do, benefit demonstrably from the practice and speak quite highly of it.

Saying something doesn't exist simply because you don't believe it exists is itself a declaration of "blind faith".

Quote:So now you're accusing me of being a hypocrite? Do you even know the definition of hypocrisy? How, exactly, am I "saying one thing, and doing something different"? Are you by any chance just another one of those atheist trolls who likes coming on to a messagboard to play the "find the loophole" game for cheap self-esteem boosts?

Like I said before, I'm only here for information. I'm not anti-Satanist, and I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm simply asking for some information.

Quote:Regardless, the analogy here is flawed. Christians have an agenda. I don't care whether or not other people have an understanding of how Satanism defines and uses the concept of "magic". And I'm certainly not telling people that something bad is going to happen to those who don't. Furthermore, it IS about subjective experiences here. Trying to "prove" what I get out of organized ritual makes as much sense as trying to "prove" that my favorite food is sushi.

But Satanic rituals are supposed to have some measurable, real-world results. Your favourite food is entirely subjective, but the results of a Satanic ritual aren't. If you perform a ritual and someone ends up dying because of it, you cannot say that is subjective.

Quote:You CAN take a completely psychological view on magic, and still find it to be a useful tool. There are lots of Satanists who do so.

When I first read TSB, I wasn't sure whether to interpret it that way or not. But after reading Anton LaVey's biography, the only real account I've read on Satanism in practise, that is definitely not true for some. There are numerous accounts of people angering LaVey and that resulting in their deaths. So it cannot be purely psychological.

And remember, like I said before, I'm only asking for some information; I'm not trying to offend anyone or tell them they're wrong or force my views down your throats.

Hehe, well yes I've heard of placebo effects and things like that (although I've never heard of anything quite like your example )

But still, someone dying from a curse in a car crash, when they didn't even know they'd been cursed in the first place? It seems like more than just a psychological effect you are trying to acheive here.

Quote:But still, someone dying from a curse in a car crash, when they didn't even know they'd been cursed in the first place? It seems like more than just a psychological effect you are trying to acheive here.

Well hey, if it gets the job done, does it really matter?

For what little it may be worth, I think that would explain most of what could be thought of as "practical magic".

The human psyche is a very powerful thing.

Consider the power of words, for example. Their effects could be considered "purely psychological".

And yet, with nothing more than words, a single man can order the deaths of millions of people and millions of people will die.

If a Satanist is doing nothing more than harnessing that principle, it is still an immensely powerful principle to harness, don't you think?

More to the point, if a Satanist successfully harnesses such a principle, what other people may believe or disbelieve about it is irrelevant.

All that matters is that it worked.

_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

Quote:So until someone can give me some proof that magic does work Satanism will remain as just a philosophy to me -

Your view on Satanism one way or another has no bearing on whether or not Satanism is a religion. It IS a religion. That is a fact. It is a clearly defined philosophy with dogma and organized ceremony. That, by definition, is a religion.

As for requiring "proof", first and foremost, what do I care? It's not like Satanism is out to get converts. Second of all, how can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience?

Have you ever performed the standard Satanic ritual described in the book? If not, then how do you expect anybody to take you seriously when you say you're "looking for proof"? Reread the definition of "magic" as its given in the book.

So well-stated, good Sir.

Satanism has nothing to prove to anyone. The framework is very specific and everything you need to know you claim to already have read. TEST IT! It stands as it is, as it has been and as it forever shall be. It either resonates within you or it doesn't.

Many people walk around all day calling themselves by many labels. This is nothing new to Satanism; We see it daily.

To beat this dead horse once again for those that just either refuse to read or can't grasp it. Satanism IS a RELIGION! Whether you like that or accept that is of little or no concern to any of Us here on the board. But if you can't seem to accept that...why are you here? *oh, I'm sure the response is "to learn more" but you goff in the face of those of willing to (when we are in no way obligated to do so) offer help.

Don't be surprised when the 4th Satanic Rule of the Earth is exhibited to you. 4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

Quote:I think there must be many more 'potential Satanists' out there that share this same view, due to the type of intelligent person that the philosophy of Satanism appeals to.

I prefer to call that group "uncreative, unimaginative atheists with no organization skills".

Perfect description, Sir.

Edited by ThaDeej (02/17/0706:17 AM)

_________________________"Good and Evil liveth only in men's minds,"Ragnar Redbeard

Quote:I think The Satanic Bible is pretty clear about magic, how it's defined, what role it plays in the religion, and why it's there in the first place (recall a quote about how Satanism "fills the large grey void between religion and psychiatry"? Or "intellectual decompression"?)

My favorite definition of Satanic magic comes from Magus Gilmore, in an interview.

Quote:Someone said that if I don't understand the magical side of Satanism, then I dont understand some 40 pages of TSB.

No, I was pointing out rather the opposite. The Book of Lucifer, as central to the book as it may be, still only makes up about 60 pages of the entire book (less than that if you leave out its last chapter, "The Black Mass", as it's not strictly part of the "philosophy side"). I was incorrect about the initial figure of 40, but regardless, the point is that it only makes up a fraction of the book. As I said in an article I wrote not too long ago (for The Ninth Gate magazine), there's a reason why the book is much longer than that. To say "I don't understand the magic part" is to throw away over half of the book. And if you extend that to throwing away "The Satanic Witch" and "The Satanic Rituals", then it begins to suspiciously look like claiming to accept a religion where you throw away half of its canon.

Look, I've seen the same question and the same claims countless times before. "How can you have that magic stuff in there if Satanism is supposed to be about rationality and realism?" Ritual is a TOOL. And again, ritualized expression has been with humans forever. To quote the book, "Man needs ceremony and ritual, fantasy and enchantment".

Quote:I understand the magic ritual as fun psychodram, and as a way to focus your energy towards your goals, and how keeping your energy focused on your goal can work positive...

Then what's your hang-up?

Quote:What I don't get is how it is believed that the focusing of your energy can change things to your will.

This seems to contradict your previous sentence.

I concur. Perhaps it might be easier for you to understand if you simply define MAGIC, what is magic to you? Once you have successfully defined it to yourself, then put it to work for yourself - the results can not be denied.

_________________________
Lead me not into temptation...I can find it myself!

Quote:Perhaps my kind of Satanism isn't LaVeyin Satanism, but I do call myself a Satanist because that is my archetype.

I don't expect you to understand, however, you're not a Satanist.

As others have pointed out, dogma and ritual are ingredients that form a religion. Satanism incorporates both dogma and ritual. By any definition, Satanism is a religion.

You could rightly call yourself an atheist, humanist, rationalist, or any other aspect that Satanism encompasses.

There's nothing wrong with that.

It only becomes a problem when you start distorting what Satanism is, into something you want it to be.

I see no reason that you should feel obligated to call yourself a Satanist, when there are so many more apt titles that, at first glance, fit you so much better than the title of "Satanist."

Satanism requires study and application, not steadfast denial based soley upon superficial skepticism.

As I said, understanding past an abstract level, requires application.

Clarke's Law states that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." It's important to understand that Clarke's Law does not work backwards, however. Which only means that anything described as magic today, doesn't necessarily mean that tomorrow technology will discover and utilize it. However, it's plausible to suggest that certain principles of magic, as codified in Satanic magic and subsequently utilized by the Satanist, are in fact, theoretically undiscovered laws of physics.

It's no secret that the human psyche is a veritable wealth of unknown, puzzling and jumbled processes that science can only guess at.

None of this matters past my subjective musing, though. What's important is that you "suspend disbelief" long enough to test the utility of Satanic magic. Which brings to mind another Clarke's Law, which states "the only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible."

Remember, just as science, logic and reason (the tools of the skeptic) have not demonstrated beyond a shadow of doubt that God does not exist, neither have those same tools disqualified magic as a quantifiable force within nature. Some things are simply accepted, or denied. Where you stand is not important to me, provided that while you participate here, you understand the differences between real skepticism and pseudo-skepticism.

In 1987, Marcello Truzzi provided this analysis of the term, "since "skepticism" properly refers to doubt rather than denial — nonbelief rather than belief — critics who take the negative rather than an agnostic position but still call themselves "skeptics" are actually pseudo-skeptics."

Draw your line in the sand if you must, but be aware that not all are going to stand on your side of it, or be happy to entertain those who do stand on your side of the line. Also be aware that in certain contexts, flat denial without experiment deserves no consideration.

This entire thread has now officially been beaten to death, so I'm just poking my head in to link to one of my old posts as proof that yes, it's possible for us rationalist-types to figure out rituals. (And that it's also entirely possible to approach the subject without being all uppity and confrontational.)

This is much better analogy than the one I tried to make (equating the practice of magic with the subjectivity of experiencing a "favorite food").

In most occult circles, the word is spelled m-a-g-i-c-k. The reason is because they feel a strong need to distinguish themselves from people like David Copperfield and Penn & Teller. The two categories are not mutually exclusive, as far as Satanists are concerned. For starters, you need a willing suspension of disbelief at some level to enjoy either. That doesn't mean the same thing as self-deceit (recall the full wording of this sin in the "9 Satanic Sins" list). The "willing" part is important: I know a magician isn't "really" sawing a woman in half, just as I can watch a movie and know that what I'm seeing is not "really" happening. But if I'd keep telling myself this through the experience, then I'd be missing the point.

People need a degree of fantasy and enchantment, and a drive to get what we want. It's simply a biological byproduct of being hard-wired for pattern searching in addition to our primal drives of self-preservation. We could try denying this fact (like most religions do, for fear of losing the very "magic" of their fairy tales), or we could use it to rationalize away any awe-filled experience that comes up, good or bad (like atheists do). Or we can go with a third option: just take the concept and learn how to make it WORK for us, balacing enjoyment with rationality.

There, THAT'S what I was trying to say. Thanks for the unintentional set-up.

Quote:Like I said before, I'm only here for information. I'm not anti-Satanist, and I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm simply asking for some information.

Understood. Just keep in mind that we do get the occasional troll in here who tries to play the game of "I'm an atheist and I'm going to debunk you!" So many of us have become wary by default of those who come to the board who don't identify as Satanists.

Quote:But Satanic rituals are supposed to have some measurable, real-world results. Your favourite food is entirely subjective, but the results of a Satanic ritual aren't.

What I meant by the subjective experience of my favorite food, was not the fact that a "favorite food" changes from person to person. It's that when I eat a favorite meal, I can get really into the experience of it. I am in my own little world (alone at that restaurant) for half an hour, and having quite the experience. I see no point in "proving" that to other people, nor could I enjoy my meal if I were to keep saying to myself "I know this is just a chemical reaction that sends signals to my brain to interpret this as pleasure, and is furthermore driven by associations I've made of what this food should taste like, and past experiences which led me to making this a favorite food, and..." Yeah, that's all true, but so what?

Quote:If you perform a ritual and someone ends up dying because of it, you cannot say that is subjective.

The key phrase here though is "because of it". Somebody else will see the chain of events and call it "coincidence". The fact that I might NOT take this same dismissal route shows that I'm knowingly experiencing something subjective. What "really" happened is beside the point. I hated this person, I got my consuming hatred out of my system by doing a Conjuration of Destruction, and now the vermin is dead. I don't go out of my way to try to rationalize; I rejoice.

It is, again, a subjective experience. Would spell casting fail in a scientifically controlled experiement? Most likely, yes. I'd have to wonder how though you could possibly set up two proper control groups that covered all the bases (e.g., how or why would I go about "cursing" some control subject I didn't know?). Science is a system that only accepts objective events: events that can be reproduced under the same conditions and be seen to different observers. We don't claim magic is science. In fact, that's kind of the whole point in calling it "magic"; trying to take the "magic" out of magic misses the whole point.

Quote:

Quote:You CAN take a completely psychological view on magic, and still find it to be a useful tool. There are lots of Satanists who do so.

[...] that is definitely not true for some. There are numerous accounts of people angering LaVey and that resulting in their deaths. So it cannot be purely psychological.

What I mean is, there's enough room for more than one of these views. You can be Satanist who enjoys greater magic purely for the catharsis and psychodrama, not believing that anything was "sent out" in any way, and that's OK. Personally, I've sure experienced some thing where all I'll say is that I don't feel comfortable chalking it all up to "pure coincidence". As TSB explains, we don't go out of our way to define magic as being strictly one of either extreme.

Honestly, I've found hard-core atheist Satanists to be some of the most charismatic people in the ritual chamber. Perhaps it's because they do more critical thinking in the day-to-day world, that when they're in an environment to "let loose" on the fatansy elements, they sound really passionate and convincing in the ritual chamber. Even Magus Gilmore said that he didn't quite understand the whole "magic" and "ritual chamber" part of the book at first, but anybody who's had the pleasure of seeing him conduct a ritual knows how excellent of a ritual conductor he can be.

Ok I think I understand what you are trying to say, but let me clarify it just in case:Are you saying that, for some people at least, all Satanic magic is nothing more than psychodrama? E.g. you could perform a ritual to try and make you more successful at whatever you do and the results of that are that you end up more focused on what you are doing, and believe that you will be successful.Because if that is the case then I can easily see that it could be a very powerful tool.

Q: Maybe I'm not making myself clear. My goal here is to take whatever you say, misinterpret it and restate it in a manner which reinforces my misconceptions.

A: Go away.

Look familiar? It should.

It's the oldest game in town.

Bible Belt

How would I know? Well, there's a story...

Once upon a time, when I first came here, I played the same game.

I didn't know diddly squat about what Satanism actually is, but relied instead on the popular mythos surrounding Satanism -- which, as it turns out, is hopelessly wrong.

Thus when I arrived in these fine forums, I might just as well have been talking about the ins and outs of animal husbandry, because pretty much everything I had to say or even ask about Satanism was so far off the mark that the prospects for mutual understanding were very grim indeed.

Fortunately, I was given good advice by helpful members, which I will repeat here for convenience:

FOR THE LOVE OF SATAN, JUST READ THE GOD-DAMNED SATANIC BIBLE!!!

That's not a call to join the Legions of the Damned, but rather practical advice which is essential to follow if you want to be able to intelligently discuss Satanism.

In my case, I took the advice and read The Satanic Bible. I laughed, I cried, but most of all, it was the feel-good book of the summer.

The best part: I learned what Satanism is.

And that, my friends, is a lesson I will never forget.

The Satanic Bible is cheap, easy to find and even easier to read. It's also amusing as hell (literally) and can even prove life-changing for those who may be surprised to see the stories of their lives inscribed in its infernal pages.

Read it now, and thank me later.

_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

Quote:Are you saying that, for some people at least, all Satanic magic is nothing more than psychodrama?

Yes, I do indeed know Satanists who take that view. And I don't see anything unsatanic about taking such a view. I still wouldn't say it's a simple matter of either "I believe it's supernatural" or "I believe it's purely psychological". For me, again, I think it's a matter of "OK, what parts of this work for me, and what do I really mean by 'it works'?" But I'm just being nit-picky in that regard, because if a Satanist gets something out of the experience, I can't exactly tell them that they're doing something "wrong".

Quote:Because if that is the case then I can easily see that it could be a very powerful tool.

Good! That means you will cease and desist with your endless ramblings.

As Magister Svengali would say: Go away!

That is Magister Rose's line.

I just use it sometimes when he's not here to!

_________________________Live and Let Die."If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant."Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito MussoliniMY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

To me magik is real, well the results are real. I practice on a daily basis. For better understanding of my beliefs, lets reliable the word magik and call it persuasion. I think when you look really look into the act of magik you find simple persuasion and mind over matter to be a more fitting definition. The little old lady on the bus for example, she uses magik-persuasion to gain seating. Skillfully she scans the situation then chooses her liking and uses power over the seating occupant with only her mind. Mind Control-Magik-Persuasion, In which ever definition(label)you choose it is clearly evident that her results of willing the seat to be vacant is magical. I do wish upon stars and by lights of the moon but I don't rely on stardust &moonsprinkles. I have found my magik comes from with-in and yes it is real.

Quote:To me magik is real, well the results are real. I practice on a daily basis. For better understanding of my beliefs, lets reliable the word magik and call it persuasion. I think when you look really look into the act of magik you find simple persuasion and mind over matter to be a more fitting definition. The little old lady on the bus for example, she uses magik-persuasion to gain seating. Skillfully she scans the situation then chooses her liking and uses power over the seating occupant with only her mind. Mind Control-Magik-Persuasion, In which ever definition(label)you choose it is clearly evident that her results of willing the seat to be vacant is magical. I do wish upon stars and by lights of the moon but I don't rely on stardust &moonsprinkles. I have found my magik comes from with-in and yes it is real.

You are joking right?

And to THINK that I wasn't giving up My seat to a Senior Citizen not to be courteous but only because that evil old fart was using mind control on Me to bend Me to serve his/her own wicked desires. The cane/walker and the varicose veins were a nice added touch too. CRAFTY.

And to THINK that I wasn't giving up My seat to a Senior Citizen not to be courteous but only because that evil old fart was using mind control on Me to bend Me to serve his/her own wicked desires. The cane/walker and the varicose veins were a nice added touch too. CRAFTY.

Oh now I'm pissed! NEVER AGAIN!

Witchy Eve you're killing me.

_________________________
"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie."