StrangeQ:The Santa Monica Nativity Scenes Committee argues in its lawsuit that atheists have the right to protest, but that freedom doesn't trump the Christian's right to free speech.

But apparently the Christians' right to speech trumps the atheists as they were the ones who vandalized the atheist displays after the atheists applied for the display locations under the exact same system and using the exact same rules as the Christians. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Just like 19 terrorists on 9/11 represents the whole one billion Muslim world, amirite?

Poor oppressed Christians. Whatever will they do? If only those danged atheists hadn't had the nerve, the NERVE, to put up a display. It's clearly their fault for not shutting up and being quiet like the worthless little sinners they are.

/Everyone who believes in this "war against Christmas/Christianity" nonsense should be fired out of a canon into space. Or into a brick wall.

Happy Hours:mamoru: Happy Hours: Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

You see, there wouldn't be an issue if the Christians hadn't vandalized the displays that Atheists, also expressing their very equal first amendment rights, put up. It's a public space. The Christians do not get special privileges for their displays over those of other faiths or lack thereof.

But since the Christians went and vandalized the other displays, the city decided to cancel the whole thing rather than have the same kind of trouble this year. Now, the city's decision to try to avoid conflict may not be the correct decision, but don't blame the atheists for putting them in the position they were in to make such a decision.

Okay, you got me to read the rest of the article. I only read about half of it the first time around. So some shiat got vandalized. That seems to me to be a criminal matter, but to say there wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for that vandalism is somewhat dishonest. Activist atheists obviously saw an issue which is why they trolled the Christians with their displays of Poseidon and Flying Spaghetti Monsters - and that's their right of free speech to do so too.

I find it sad, I'm not religious but I'm not against religion either. If you want to celebrate your god or even multiple gods I'm not going to show up at your celebration just to shiat all over it. If you want to protest a religion, let's be specific about it. Protest the Catholic church sheltering pedophiles if you want. That's something even Catholics can support.

But you just look like assholes when you show up to mock those who have different beliefs than you do - even though that is your right. The First Amendment does protect yo ...

I see where you are coming from - but tha fact is that atheists were not necessary to bring this outcome about. Had people of other, unpopular faiths ( such as Wicca, Islam, Scientology) exercised their "right" to put up displays, the same thing would have happened. using public space fro the expression of private religious views never works out, except in places where there is one official, goverment maddated faith."Militant Atheists" make a handy scapegoat, but here, people of faith are essentially blaming them for their own mischief.

If you believed a little harder that you were worshipping the right God you might be a little more secure in your beliefs and the promise of happiness and eternal life and wouldn't let a bunch of low-grade pranksters get the best of you.

And 60 years is not a tradition. I appreciate that you live in California and anything older than 21 is old and used up. However in most parts of the world there are national treasures that provided a historical link to their embryonic beginning that were under rubble for ten times as long as that and they managed to figure out a way to make it through the day.

Suck it up. Hang some lights. And understand that taking the high road often times may lead you to the satisfaction of unifying EVERYONE unless you're just a small-minded twunt who gets up every day with nothing else but the chip on their shoulder that they've managed to show up regularly somewhere on Sunday mornings.

StrangeQ:The Santa Monica Nativity Scenes Committee argues in its lawsuit that atheists have the right to protest, but that freedom doesn't trump the Christian's right to free speech.

But apparently the Christians' right to speech trumps the atheists as they were the ones who vandalized the atheist displays after the atheists applied for the display locations under the exact same system and using the exact same rules as the Christians. Hypocrisy at its finest.

I'm not a Constitutional law dog, but how is Santa Monica not allowing churches to put up Christmas displays a violation of freedom of speech if Santa Monica has to give permission to put up the displays?

I feel like I'm looking at the command deck of Spaceball One when I read this article - nothing but Assholes with a capital A. Atheists trying to provoke the Christians, Christians dicking out on the atheists for provoking them, just sounds like they're all just miserable pricks who hate each other.

I'm a lapsed Catholic. I admit I don't really like going to church, pretty much because it doesn't do anything for me anymore and I feel like I know when I'm doing good and when I'm being a dick. But when we're talking about a frickin' religious holiday, it's hard to sit there and say "you know what? I don't think that nativity scene belongs there." I understand how someone can not believe and all, but when Christians get one month out of the twelve of the year to be proud of their religion, it just seems petty to be sitting there and antagonizing them for it. I'm sure if the atheists lost their extra day off in December they'd be pissing and moaning about working too much, too.

Why do we all have to be a bunch of pricks to each other? Why do we have to spend the last two months of every goddamned year treating each other like pricks because of what we believe? Maybe it's because my best friend is Wiccan and another good friend's wife is a Reiki priestess, and I was taught by very ecumenical-minded people even at a Catholic college, but it just seems like a waste and a denouncement of Christian principles to be so dickish about religion or a lack thereof. Especially when it comes to the time of year that's supposed to be about family, about acceptance, about good will towards all, and just generally not being a dick.

StrangeQ:xanadian: Babwa Wawa: And as someone pointed out earlier, they'd have continued permission if someone hadn't chosen to vandalize the atheists' display last year.

Because some people are apparently too insecure in their faith.

/FIGHT *ALL* THE DIFFERENCES!!!

Yeah they're all love and tolerance until you express anything opposing their faith. Had several Darwin fish ripped off my car because of that.

We had douchebags ripping down the "Yes on 1" pro-gay marriage signs up in Maine. Some were even caught on camera. Blows my mind why they feel so threatened by 2 guys (or 2 gals) who love each other. Because Jesus.

/while Jesus didn't say word one about it, but had a LOT to say about hypocrisy

mamoru:Happy Hours: Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

You see, there wouldn't be an issue if the Christians hadn't vandalized the displays that Atheists, also expressing their very equal first amendment rights, put up. It's a public space. The Christians do not get special privileges for their displays over those of other faiths or lack thereof.

But since the Christians went and vandalized the other displays, the city decided to cancel the whole thing rather than have the same kind of trouble this year. Now, the city's decision to try to avoid conflict may not be the correct decision, but don't blame the atheists for putting them in the position they were in to make such a decision.

How do you know the vandalism was done by christians? Plenty of people have vandalized their own homes/businesses/religious buildings to get sympathy or start trouble.

cman:StrangeQ: The Santa Monica Nativity Scenes Committee argues in its lawsuit that atheists have the right to protest, but that freedom doesn't trump the Christian's right to free speech.

But apparently the Christians' right to speech trumps the atheists as they were the ones who vandalized the atheist displays after the atheists applied for the display locations under the exact same system and using the exact same rules as the Christians. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Just like 19 terrorists on 9/11 represents the whole one billion Muslim world, amirite?

Blaming the actions of a few on the whole is pretty idiotic

... Who's blaming what now? Are you saying the atheists vandalized their own signs to get the city to cancel the whole thing?

FriarReb98:but it just seems like a waste and a denouncement of Christian principles to be so dickish about religion or a lack thereof. Especially when it comes to the time of year that's supposed to be about family, about acceptance, about good will towards all, and just generally not being a dick.

"Love God with all your heart and all your soul. And the other is like it, to love your neighbor as you love yourself. All the laws and the Prophets hang on these commandments."

It's the Bronze Age equivalent of the Law of Wheaton: Don't be a dick.

It is odd that so many people of faith delight as describing atheism as "just another religion" - and yet, when atheists publicly declare and display their "faith", they want to suppress it - even going as far as vandalism. Strange.

After long rtfa... Yeah, Christians need to spend less time getting poutraged about stupid shiat and more time actually reading their bible and understanding its message.

Hint: the farking Jesus freaks are the one that caused this by their vandalism. That and their sense of entitlement. Maybe if the Christians in the area weren't farking violent Neanderthals, they might still have their display.

All that being said: you churches bilk your people out of shiatloads of money and don't farking pay a dime in taxes, so here is an idea.. Use that money to put a display up at your church, on your church land.

None of this would have been an issue if the Christians could tolerate free speech that isn't their own, but nope, their answer to other views is to smash them.

Wait a second, some of you people actually think atheists don't believe in god because we want everybody else to be miserable? Jeese all this time I thought I was an atheist because I actually think for myself and refused to believe in quite obvious fairy tales.

StrangeQ:Actually, it's not. The only reason the city isn't doing it again this year is because of the vandalism. If the nutjob Christians could accept the fact that their supernatural superstition is just as valid as every other form of supernatural superstition and learn to live with the fact that occasionally people are going to point that out to them when they try to broadcast their beliefs for all the world to see then there wouldn't be a problem.

Interesting perspective. So any minor vandalism should be enough to quash free speech? Do you really think most Christians were in favor of vandalizing the displays of others? That's almost like saying all Muslims are terrorists because a handful of them commit acts of terrorism.

Should free speech be stopped whenever it appears on public property? If a gay rights organization wants to hold a protest in public, should they be stopped because it would be a government endorsement of their views?

I say let the people - no matter what their religion, race or whatever gather peaceably and protest in favor of or against whatever they want.

The Atheist organizations for trolling instead of demonstrating their rights in an adult manner. Something like "We believe in the freedom not to believe,", with some kind non-religious, perhaps science oriented mural or picture (Maybe that old pic of Einstein and all the other scientists gathered for a picture) would have demonstrated their attitude toward religion, and the fact that there are other things to find interest in, while still remaining mature and sensitive toward the other people putting up displays. Maybe with some quotes from philosophers that aren't blatantly mocking our hostile toward religious people, but are more about people's right to be non-religious.Instead they put up a bunch of meme's and trollworthy pictures and quotes, which makes us atheists that just want to keep to ourselves and be free to avoid religious activities look like a bunch of farking intolerant assholes.

The Christians groups are a bunch of big babies, because their religious freedoms aren't being quashed by not being able to put up a nativity scene in a public park. IMO, none of the groups should be putting up blatantly religious themed displays in public areas, and they are still left free to practice their religion without being able to do so. Saying "This is a shame that not everyone could act in a mature and adult manner," is one thing, but going to court as if they're being persecuted is ridiculous. And comparing the nativity scene to Jesus having nowhere to go? They are PLASTIC statues. Dramatizing much?

As far as the vandalism, is there even any proof the Christian groups did it? Kids vandalize shiat all the time, and they probably knew they'd get more flack if they were caught vandalizing Jesus, than some random internet memes. Or maybe they knew the Christian groups would get pointed at and blamed, and they could sit back and watch the hilarity that ensued. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the atheists did it themselves for that reason, the same way religious people have been caught vandalizing their own stuff to make it look like some hate group did it. This atheist group seems like a bunch of trolling assholes, so why not assume that?

StrangeQ:xanadian: EQUAL time? The secular coalition won 18 of 21 spaces. The two others went to the traditional Christmas displays and one to a Hanukkah display.

It would've been fine if they had 1 or 2. Displays about the secular bit of Xmas. Or even a flat-out atheist thingee about how there's no God or something. That would've been fine. But 18 of 21!??."

They applied the same as the Christian groups and were awarded based on a random draw. How is that not fair?

In the same volume, though? Or did they inundate the city with applications? Oh wait, it's right there in TFA. It's all mathematics. Of 100 applications, if you submit 10, and they only accept 10, you'll probably get 1 approved. But if you've submitted 80 out of 100, you'll get a lot more.

Math is hard.

I'm not saying atheists are WRONG. Science and reason would side with them. But it's still dickish. And it seems that Vix has had displays in the past: simple ones with a simple message. He must've had approval in the past with no problem, so was there really a need to "inundate the city with applications?" He just suddenly decided to dial it up to 11.

The Atheist organizations for trolling instead of demonstrating their rights in an adult manner. Something like "We believe in the freedom not to believe,", with some kind non-religious, perhaps science oriented mural or picture (Maybe that old pic of Einstein and all the other scientists gathered for a picture) would have demonstrated their attitude toward religion, and the fact that there are other things to find interest in, while still remaining mature and sensitive toward the other people putting up displays. Maybe with some quotes from philosophers that aren't blatantly mocking our hostile toward religious people, but are more about people's right to be non-religious.Instead they put up a bunch of meme's and trollworthy pictures and quotes, which makes us atheists that just want to keep to ourselves and be free to avoid religious activities look like a bunch of farking intolerant assholes.

The Christians groups are a bunch of big babies, because their religious freedoms aren't being quashed by not being able to put up a nativity scene in a public park. IMO, none of the groups should be putting up blatantly religious themed displays in public areas, and they are still left free to practice their religion without being able to do so. Saying "This is a shame that not everyone could act in a mature and adult manner," is one thing, but going to court as if they're being persecuted is ridiculous. And comparing the nativity scene to Jesus having nowhere to go? They are PLASTIC statues. Dramatizing much?

As far as the vandalism, is there even any proof the Christian groups did it? Kids vandalize shiat all the time, and they probably knew they'd get more flack if they were caught vandalizing Jesus, than some random internet memes. Or maybe they knew the Christian groups would get pointed at and blamed, and they could sit back and watch the hilarity that ensued. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the atheists did it themselves for that rea ...

Maybe. I am deeply suspicious of "false flag" explanations - their track record of turning out to be true is very poor. I'm not saying it never happens, but the vast majority of the time it is just deflection.

StrangeQ:Happy Hours: They weren't really promoting Poseidon. They were making a point - which is their right, but it was still very trollish of them especially because they didn't actually believe in Poseidon.

Would it be very trollish of me if all the world smoked cigarettes and I and a few others knew the truth that they cause you to die of terrible, delibilitating cancer and so we set about putting up signs depicting diseased lungs on national have a smoke day?

Not if that's what you really believed, but do you think these people really believed in Poseidon? If you did it just because you hate smokers then yes, it would be trollish.

Truth as you see it. You don't have all the answers and neither does anybody else. These people believe in some shiat that you don't believe in. You disagree about what the "truth" is, and nobody really knows for sure.

The difference is that, unlike you, they have a holiday they want to celebrate by putting up some decorations and making something pretty to look at.

That's no the right route to take here. 60 years can by all means be a tradition. It is long enough for an entire generation to have grown up knowing nothing else.

fruitloop:I'm not a Constitutional law dog, but how is Santa Monica not allowing churches to put up Christmas displays a violation of freedom of speech if Santa Monica has to give permission to put up the displays?

It's not a violation because they've stopped the displays for everything, religious and nonreligious.

Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

Let's see if I get this right:

Telling me I'm going to burn in a fiery pit for all of eternity = free speech

It never ceases to amaze me that some people think "We've been violating the Constitution for 60 years and nobody complained before" is a valid defense.

/ You know what would be awesome? If Christians who understood the importance of secular government went after these sorts of displays so as not to make it an "Evil atheist vs. poor suffering Christians" issue.

Martian_Astronomer:It never ceases to amaze me that some people think "We've been violating the Constitution for 60 years and nobody complained before" is a valid defense.

/ You know what would be awesome? If Christians who understood the importance of secular government went after these sorts of displays so as not to make it an "Evil atheist vs. poor suffering Christians" issue.

Actually, it would be OK with me if people of different faiths (or lack thereof) expressed their views in public space - as long as they could play nice. But they never can

jso2897:Maybe. I am deeply suspicious of "false flag" explanations - their track record of turning out to be true is very poor. I'm not saying it never happens, but the vast majority of the time it is just deflection.

The track record isn't that poor. Like the recent case where the Lesbian cut herself up to try and make everyone think she was attacked by vicious homophobes.There are MANY cases of such things.

I'm not saying that was necessarily the case here, just that there's no proof that the Christians did it either, from what I can see, so it's just as ludacris to go blaming them.

IMO, most likely it was just regular old vandalism with no agenda at all. It's a major city and kids fark shiat up. Even fairly non-religious kids may have issues in the back of their mind with vandalising Jesus, so the atheist displays were a better target. Doesn't mean some kind of Christian anti-atheist agenda is automatically to blame.

Without proof, it's just a way for both sides to point fingers at each other, no matter who did it.

Happy Hours:Interesting perspective. So any minor vandalism should be enough to quash free speech? Do you really think most Christians were in favor of vandalizing the displays of others? That's almost like saying all Muslims are terrorists because a handful of them commit acts of terrorism.

You're trying to turn this into an inquisition when it is nothing of the sort. Ever heard the expression one bad apple ruins the bunch? It doesn't matter that most people are probably perfectly fine with the displays, religious or not. What matters is that the city knows that if the displays are allowed to be erected again this year there will likely be more vandalism with the possibility of escalation to the point that the police need to be involved. In lieu of this they have decided to cancel the whole thing and avoid the hassle. It has absolutely nothing to do with persecuting the poor Christians.

This is what started the fight last year. Christians were angry they didn't get to monopolize the displays as they had for nearly 60 years.

"Officials used a lottery to dole out spots in the prime location along Ocean Avenue. The atheists turned out to be the lucky ones: Of the 21 plots in the park open for displays, they won 18. The Nativity story that once took 14 displays to tell - from the Annunciation, continuing to the manger in Bethlehem and onto infant Jesus' journey to Egypt and back to Nazareth - had to be abridged to three and crammed into two plots."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/12/atheists-hijack-christm a s-nativity-display-in-santa-monica-critics-say.html

Yes, the Christians were trolled big time, and it was their stupid fault they reacted by vandalizing the other displays. Now, no one gets to play.

Ihaveanevilparrot:jso2897: Maybe. I am deeply suspicious of "false flag" explanations - their track record of turning out to be true is very poor. I'm not saying it never happens, but the vast majority of the time it is just deflection.

The track record isn't that poor. Like the recent case where the Lesbian cut herself up to try and make everyone think she was attacked by vicious homophobes.There are MANY cases of such things.

I'm not saying that was necessarily the case here, just that there's no proof that the Christians did it either, from what I can see, so it's just as ludacris to go blaming them.

IMO, most likely it was just regular old vandalism with no agenda at all. It's a major city and kids fark shiat up. Even fairly non-religious kids may have issues in the back of their mind with vandalising Jesus, so the atheist displays were a better target. Doesn't mean some kind of Christian anti-atheist agenda is automatically to blame.

Without proof, it's just a way for both sides to point fingers at each other, no matter who did it.

In an immense socirty like ours, there may be "many" cases of such things - but they are alleged many, many more times than they actually happen. i tend to look to Occam's razor in matters of this nature. That which looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck rarely turns out to be a penguin.

xanadian:StrangeQ: xanadian: EQUAL time? The secular coalition won 18 of 21 spaces. The two others went to the traditional Christmas displays and one to a Hanukkah display.

It would've been fine if they had 1 or 2. Displays about the secular bit of Xmas. Or even a flat-out atheist thingee about how there's no God or something. That would've been fine. But 18 of 21!??."

They applied the same as the Christian groups and were awarded based on a random draw. How is that not fair?

In the same volume, though? Or did they inundate the city with applications? Oh wait, it's right there in TFA. It's all mathematics. Of 100 applications, if you submit 10, and they only accept 10, you'll probably get 1 approved. But if you've submitted 80 out of 100, you'll get a lot more.

Math is hard.

Is there something in the Bible that prevented the Christians from doing the same?

jso2897:Actually, it would be OK with me if people of different faiths (or lack thereof) expressed their views in public space - as long as they could play nice. But they never can

Bingo.

And this is why the city stopped it altogether. Not because they're persecuting Christians, but because you can't put a bunch of different faiths and beliefs in one place without someone being an asshole. That's why it's a bad idea to have religious displays of any kind in public areas. SOMEONE is going to get butthurt.