Because the VRM heat builds up in the top back corner and cooks everything.

You are right, I missed that part : "Although in the picture above it looks like the Ninja duct goes all the way down to the motherboard, it is actually an inch above it" So I did not understand how the top fan could still cool something. The top fan is sucking some of the air from the duct near the VRMs ? I find it a bit contradictory to design a duct that fits very closely on the heatsink (rather than taping losely some cardboard) and not sealing it more on the motherboard side to control the airflow until it's out of the case.

Quote:

Your ducting ideas are based on the assumption that CPU heat is the problem; this is intuitive but not borne out by experiment. The real culprit seems to be the VRM.

Not exactly, I forgot about the VRM obviously, but I also just thought it would have been easier to cool the CPU, the MCH and the graphic card with a single top fan + duct, rather than using two parallel fans. The VRM's heatsink seems close to the case, did you thought about connecting the two with some copper ?

Quote:

Interesting ideas, do you think they are applicable to fans and air flow this slow?

That's a very polite way to say I was being off-topic, which is true BTW . It's just your stack of coins in that place, that reminded me of that strange idea I had when I noticed some turbulence behind a fan even though I had cut every mesh or casing.

About the noise tone, I have to thank you for finding out that website, I had great fun trying to guess the speed of a clicking fan by identifying the mechanical noise frequency as well as being able to ascertain that my screen was buzzing at the refresh rate frequency.

EDIT: Neil, Chris starts his article with

Quote:

I do a lot of transcoding of audio and video on my home computer, and got tired of the system being unusably slow for hours at a stretch.

Choosing an Intel dual-core makes perfect sense as they are better in video transcoding than AMD's thanks to longer pipelines. Their dual-core have a not so bad performance/price ratio compared to AMD's dual-core when you take that into account. Obviously that's without taking into account the power consumption.

"Choosing an Intel dual-core makes perfect sense as they are better in video transcoding than AMD's thanks to longer pipelines. Their dual-core have a not so bad performance/price ratio compared to AMD's dual-core when you take that into account. Obviously that's without taking into account the power consumption."

And these 5 tests by TomHardware show respectively AMD faster by 0.2%, 4%, 7% and slower by 10% and 2%. So while THW is a bit more on the Intel side, and XBitLabs is on the AMD side (+3% and +12%), can we say they are more or less on par ? Maybe Chris will even tell what software he uses exactly.
I should have said "better in video transcoding than in gaming, and when compared to AMD's they are on par in that area".

AMD's X2 3800 costs about 3% less than Intel's D830 here, so Intel deserved the "not so bad performance/price ratio compared to AMD".
I wrote "Obviously that's without taking into account the power consumption." so I totally agree with you on the high operating costs.

First off, I'd like to thank Chris for submitting this interesting article which is quite different to most builds here. It seems that you've built a system that meets your high performance needs whilst remaining acceptably quiet; congratulations.

I do have a couple of questions after a quick read however.

1) Why did you decide to go for what was a high-end GPU when you say you're not into games? Have you tried putting the X300 back in and running those benchmarks again. I get the feeling that you're adding unecessary heat to those sensitive VRMs.

2) Did you consider watercooling? Could an off-the-shelf kit with a second 120mm radiator handle ~150w using quiet fans?

Actually I did put Arctic Silver 5 on the NB; I forgot to mention it in the article. When I did that, the HS temperature went up at least 5C (from hot to very hot); clearly the stock compound wasn't transferring heat very well.

Did you put Arctic Silver 5 on the VRMs too? Or is that even possible? i really know nothing about VRMs.

Somewhat of an afterthought, but if I were going to build a system that generated a lot of heat, I would use a VGA cooler that sends the heat out of the case. That's at least 50 watts you don't have to worry about anymore.

Did you put Arctic Silver 5 on the VRMs too? Or is that even possible? i really know nothing about VRMs.

Not possible.

I just want to repeat what others have already said:

I'm surprised and a bit dismayed at the criticism levelled at Chris just for his choice of processor. You might not do the same, and he might not have either, had there been other choices he felt were right for him. Regardless, his article is here is because...

1) he obviously succeeded in making his hot system quiet
2) with a lot of ingenuity and systematic, well-reasoned effort, and
3) the detailed documentation he prepared in order to share his experience with us is second to none among SPCR's DIY article archives (which I stated explicitly in my intro to the piece).

We should all applaud. I hope it inspires some of you to contribute to the main site with DIY articles of your own. (And that this thread doesn't scare off the ones who had thought about it!)

DIY articles used to be the lifeblood of SPCR, but have really fallen away in the last year or two, perhaps as silencing has become easier with more off-the-shelf solutions. Still, as Chris showed here, there's lots of room for DIY creativity in PC silencing.

I'm surprised and a bit dismayed at the criticism levelled at Chris just for his choice of processor. You might not do the same, and he might not have either, had there been other choices he felt were right for him

Mike, given the frustration you have expressed in other threads about the powerhungriness of GPU's and how they seem to be going down the same energy-inefficient route that was trodden by CPU's pre-Prescott, I'm surprised that you approve of someone choosing an energy-inefficient CPU. Why one standard for GPU's and another for CPU's? It seems to me your standpoint is a little inconsistent there.

Quote:

1) he obviously succeeded in making his hot system quiet 2) with a lot of ingenuity and systematic, well-reasoned effort

The exasperating thing about his build was that a lot of the effort was largely unnecessary. No-one likes to see someone make a rod for their own back, which is what this cooling exercise essentially turned into.

Quote:

3) the detailed documentation he prepared in order to share his experience with us is second to none among SPCR's DIY article archives (which I stated explicitly in my intro to the piece).

I agree with that, it was a very well-written piece, right up there with the high standards of journalism we have come to expect of SPCR.

Mike, given the frustration you have expressed in other threads about the powerhungriness of GPU's and how they seem to be going down the same energy-inefficient route that was trodden by CPU's pre-Prescott, I'm surprised that you approve of someone choosing an energy-inefficient CPU. Why one standard for GPU's and another for CPU's? It seems to me your standpoint is a little inconsistent there.

What's inconsistent? One is a generalization directed at the industry, the other is an acceptance of someone's personal choice. It's his money, his time, his efforts. I'm in no position to approve or disapprove of such things. I may encourage people to choose higher efficiency for many good reasons, but you can't expect me to reject or frown on a piece this good on the basis that I am philosophically opposed to power hungry CPUs. SPCR is here to share info; this is good info. (We also review 600W PSUs, remember?)

Quote:

The exasperating thing about his build was that a lot of the effort was largely unnecessary. No-one likes to see someone make a rod for their own back, which is what this cooling exercise essentially turned into.

Exasperation is your reaction, not his doing. 80% of people buy/use Intel; many of them will find the piece fascinating & educational.

Quote:

...it was a very well-written piece, right up there with the high standards of journalism we have come to expect of SPCR.

This is the essence of a DIY piece at SPCR. There are lots of DIY projects covered in SPCR in the past that many people (including me, I freely admit) would never do themselves, but that doesn't make them bad articles. They are often great articles that showcase ingenuity, curiosity, doggedness -- all things I personally admire. And the better documented it is, the better the article.

I really enjoyed that article. Pay no mind to people or what they say. The way you wrote the article would benefit anyone trying to cool any processors, in the P180 case, or any other. I think its a real good read.

I too have the P180, but I am not looking for the quietest of pcs. As long as I cant hear it through my 5.1 headphones or no one can hear it through my headset (I do xfire/yerhoo/teamspeak) I am good to go.

So far I have replaced most of the fans with silenx 120mm fans. The thick one in front of my psu is hooked to the fan only port on my psu, so if it gets hot it kicks on (if you can call it that, I have never heard it kick on). I used a thick 120 in the optional hole, I had to remove that entire hard drive rack, and the plastic supports. I also have a thin 120 in the top hole, and another thick 120 on the front of my Ninja.

I recently got a 3 5.25 slot 120mm fan from skythe (sp?) that fits above my dvd burner and blows cold air right into the front of the ninja. It doesnt have a silenx fan (I ran out) but the quiet one that comes with it.

I have had problems with my video card (7800Gs) overheating in some games, at 61-65C. I put two of the 120mm antec tri cool fans down below the card, zip tied to that grill thing. Yeah its ghetto but it seems to work, and at full blast on both its not as loud as the fan card I did have.

I love the case, but I have to leave the front door open with the middle filter out and that filter door open to get the best video card temps. Oh, btw running a P4 478 [email protected] with temps ranging from 36-40 idle (depends on my room temps) and loaded like 46-49ish.

Any ideas for better cooling on my video card? I noticed a huge difference in temps by sealing the grill on the back. It sits about 6 inches from a wall, and I think the top exhaust fans were pulling air from that grill, warmer air that came from the power supply.

Btw the 850/1K does not fit the case. I am going to mod it. Big time. I was wondering if cutting out the grills on the 120's would make any difference? I think most of my noise is a whooosh kinda sound.

* DESIGN - Chris has designed a system by selecting a hardware architecture which meets his needs. Chris does not spend much time in his article justifying his design decisions. Nor should he be required to do so. Perhaps Chris has valid technical reasons for going with Intel over AMD. Perhaps Chris wanted the challenge of making a hot Intel system silent. Perhaps Chris has a personal dislike for AMD. It really doesn't matter why Chris chose to go with Intel over AMD. In reading this article, my reaction was that I was unlikely to make the same design choices as Chris since my needs are different, but that I nevertheless had an opportunity to learn from Chris' experience. Chris has clearly put a lot of thought into this project and it seems reasonable to assume that his design choices were carefully considered.

* BUILD - Chris has built a system and taken the time to write about it. Chris has clearly done a good job with his system and he seems to be happy with the result. This article takes the system design he has selected as a starting point, and then proceeds to describe his system build. As the techniques for making a hot Intel CPU system quiet can be applied to AMD systems as well, Chris' article is relevant to everyone at SPCR.

If we insist on criticizing Chris' design decisions, we fall into one of several traps. Either:
* We are suggesting that we know more about Chris' needs than Chris does (without fully understanding how Chris will use the system).
* Or we are suggesting that Chris' choice of processor would never be valid for any set of requirements (this seems somewhat presumptuous)
* Or we are suggesting that Chris' article is incomplete because he hasn't proven to our satisfaction that his design is valid (which would be fine if, for example, we were paying Chris for a design and we accordingly had good reason to expect Chris to justify his decision)
* Or we are suggesting that we have nothing to learn from Chris' experience because we wouldn't build a system the same way that Chris built his system.

As a computing community, I think we should all be happy that Chris is satisfied with his result. We should also be grateful that Chris has taken the time to document his build and PATIENTLY explain his choices to everyone who asked questions in the forum.

Last edited by BigA on Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Did you put Arctic Silver 5 on the VRMs too? Or is that even possible? i really know nothing about VRMs.

Doh! I certainly could, although the extremely high temperature of that heat sink indicates that the stock thermal goo is pretty efficient.

Then I thought about putting silver next to high-power FETs...

Then I went to the Arctic Silver web site, which says:

Quote:

Not Electrically Conductive:Arctic Silver 5 was formulated to conduct heat, not electricity.(While much safer than electrically conductive silver and copper greases, Arctic Silver 5 should be kept away from electrical traces, pins, and leads. While it is not electrically conductive, the compound is very slightly capacitive and could potentially cause problems if it bridges two close-proximity electrical paths.)

So maybe I'll give it a go.

The VRM heat sink on the P5LD2 sits on top of 6 MOSFETs that are part of the Vcore 12V-to-1.3V converter, and is attached with a couple of plastic push-pins. It is a straighforward mod to replace the stock TIM.

The VRM heat sink on the P5LD2 sits on top of 6 MOSFETs that are part of the Vcore 12V-to-1.3V converter, and is attached with a couple of plastic push-pins. It is a straighforward mod to replace the stock TIM.

If you are going to go that far, why not replace the heatsink altogether rather than just the TIM? The trick would be to find one that's big enough to make the change worthwhile and still fit. Could be hard...

Personally, I wonder if the TIM will make any difference; just removing / replacing it will change the way it seats and that might make some difference.

The VRM heat sink on the P5LD2 sits on top of 6 MOSFETs that are part of the Vcore 12V-to-1.3V converter, and is attached with a couple of plastic push-pins. It is a straighforward mod to replace the stock TIM.

If you are going to go that far, why not replace the heatsink altogether rather than just the TIM? The trick would be to find one that's big enough to make the change worthwhile and still fit. Could be hard...

Personally, I wonder if the TIM will make any difference; just removing / replacing it will change the way it seats and that might make some difference.

This heat sink is custom, as is the MCH heat sink. The chances of finding another one with compatible mounting hardware are slim to none.

Another thought is to leave this HS alone, and add some copper on top, as suggested by [I forget who]. I've ordered some BGA RAMsinks to stick on this heat sink (with the fins oriented to catch some airflow) as well as the other 3 FETs that don't currently have heat sinks.

Meanwhile, I have some new ideas about ducting and air flow. Will apprise after experimentation...

Thanks for taking the time to write the article! You thought out of the box and it made me think. I'm curious about the concept of using several very low speed fans rather than one high speed fan. My P180 system has passively cooled components in the top chamber (video, MOBO, Ninja), so that the only noise sources in the top chamber are from the two case cooling fans. I've wondered if I could get away with running the fans more slowly if I added one to the intake and another one blowing directly onto my passively cooled video card (Gigabyte x800xl). My video card is similar to yours and runs hot. I like your approach of running the fans below 1000 rpm.

although the extremely high temperature of that heat sink indicates that the stock thermal goo is pretty efficient.

It's the silver one that says like fanless, no moving parts, ect. right? How hot does it get. My p5nd2-sli deluxe has the same heatsink and it doesn't feel hot at all. It might be because I have the intel fan blowing down on it though. The NB definitely feels hot though.

The reported CPU temperature varies from 50°C when idle, to 75°C running two copies of CPUBurn. As mentioned before, the temperatures are way higher than numbers I see in other people's reviews. I suspect the thermal diode circuit in my system is out of whack.

I'm shocked no one has raised concern over this. This is not normal by any stretch of imagination. Whether it be a whacked out diode or not why not replace it to be sure.

My s478 3.0ghz prescott idle's @ 36c's and loads no higher than 56c (with a 6600gt in there too).

From MikeC's review, insert about high TDP CPU.

Quote:

Much of the testing for the P180 was conducted with an Intel 670 processor (P4-3.8, Prescott), arguably one of the hottest desktop CPU ever made, with a Thermal Design Power rating of 115W and a potential Maximum Power of 158W. With ambient room temperature varying 22~25°C, the Ninja was operated without a fan directly on the unit (as shown above) with both the P180 case fans running at minimum speed. Stress testing with CPUBurn resulted in temps no higher than ~60°C. When only one of the case fans was used, the CPU temp rose to ~67°C, with thermal throttling occurring about 5% of the time. Increasing the speed of the Antec P180 case fan (Tri-Cool 120x25mm) to the mid-setting brought the temp down to ~60°C again

But when MikeC did a test passively w/ a 2.8A it went 70+.

I say replace that motherboard to be sure, or use some other means of reading the temperature.

Why replace the motherboard if his systems is clearly stable and functional? Yes, the absolute values reported by the thermal sensors might be wrong (or, more likely, reporting something other than what is commonly called CPU temp), but that's no reason to replace the board. Two things matter:

1. Relative temperatures. Changes in temperature are what you really want to be looking at, and his board does this just fine.

2. System stability. His system is perfectly stable.

Of these, only the latter is really important, the first is just a way of determining the difference between various setups ... which is important for finding the upper overclocking limits for his processor and motherboard. Chances are, that limit to stability will correspond to one or more maximum temperature reported by his board, but the exact number will be different for every board/CPU combination he chooses to examine. This is true even of combinations with different samples of the same model. I ran into two "identical" motherboards that reported load temperatures for the same CPU/heatsink combination at a 12 degree difference.

I think the most likely explanation is that his board is measuring the CPU shutdown diode, which can tolerate a much higher temperature than the ~70 degrees that is considered a "normal" maximum. For the record, my own system uses this method of reporting, which means that my load temperatures are often above 80 degrees. However, I know from experience that the threshold of stability is around 96 degrees as reported by my motherboard.

I say replace that motherboard to be sure, or use some other means of reading the temperature.

I wouldn't sweat it personally. I have way too much experience with whacky readouts from all kinds of embedded thermal diodes -- the ones in HDDs & CPUs and GPUs -- as well as mobo monitoring circuits. When you come right down to it, if the thing is stable, that's what counts. And the temp drops when the CPU is not fully loaded; it just doesn't stay peaked indefinitely.

One of the great things about SPCR is the focus on critical thinking. The greatest enemy of critical thinking is orthodoxy and dogmatic belief. The truth of the belief is irrelevant in this context. In this case, it may be true that the most effective way to build a quiet system goes like this:

There are two problems here. One - it's just not that interesting going over the same ground again and again, two, it offers no opportunity to learn and be critical. While I do think these forums are the right place to question the choices made by the author (after all, that's part of the critical process), I do think that many of the questions posed have been rhetorical rather than critical in nature (or to put it more clearly for the large ESL contingent here, they have not been interested in finding out why the decisions were made, but rather in pointing out the wrongness of those decisions).

Keep in mind that the maturity of the discussions here is one of the things that make SPCR one of the better hardware sites out there. Let's try to keep it that way. Partly that means avoiding the quasi-religious dogmatism about hardware that infects nearly every other site.

Sadly, I think that kind of response is inevitable when people think outside the box.

It really just goes to show how the whole CPU scene has turned 180 degress when buying a dual-Prescott is considered "thinking outside the box". It used to be that buying an AMD for its cool'n'quiet features was the non-mainstream action!

As for the accusations of orthodoxy and dogmatism, this article has been posted in the "SPCR Article Discussion" forum; people have every right to make their viewpoints known about whatever aspects of the article seem pertinent to them; I presume free speech still applies in this forum. Many people think the choice of a dual-Prescott CPU for a quiet computer is sub-optimal; it's their right to have that opinion and to express it. The author chose the chip according to his needs; that's his right. Any attempt to browbeat people into saying "Oh what a wonderful system! We mustn't criticise it because we're all so open-minded here at SPCR!" merely leads to a kind of inverse groupthink.

I can't imagine how my post came across as browbeating. I'm no relativist. I beleive that there is such thing as objective truth, and I explicitly stated that the forums are the correct place to question the article. My issue is more with the tone of some of the comments. It is something by definition very hard to put your finger on, but it has changed here.

As far as the free speech thing goes, you'd have to ask Mike. I'm sure the intent is there, and it's not like Mike has told anyone not to post or banned anyone. Again - nothing wrong with questioning the author's choices. Also nothing wrong with me questioning the apparent fervour with which some posters have questioned those choices.

The reported CPU temperature varies from 50°C when idle, to 75°C running two copies of CPUBurn. As mentioned before, the temperatures are way higher than numbers I see in other people's reviews. I suspect the thermal diode circuit in my system is out of whack.

Recall I measured the outside of one of the Ninja heat pipes at 45C when the reported CPU temperature was 73C. Obviously if the heat sink base is over 45C, the CPU die is going to be much hotter, and nothing like the 38C many people report for other systems.

I did verify that it is the onchip diode being used: when I launch CPUBurn, the temperature jumps over 5C in the first second. Also, I (accidently) determined the throttling temperature is 103C for this chip.

Also keep in mind that the recommended maximum case temperature is 69C, so of course the die temperature would be well above that.

And yes, I do know that running chips close to their rated maximum temperature shortens their lifetimes. But this is a CPU we're talking about; odds are very very good I'll replace it in less than two years.

Finally, I'm starting to think the diode circuit in my system is not all that far off (probably less than 10 degrees). I think the nonlinearity I measured during calibration can be more than accounted for by the Vcore droop and fluctuation, which I've observed to be as large as 0.12V.

I think the thermal diode is fine (unless mine is bad too). I have an 830 too and those temps seem to be about the same as mine. It's usually around 58ºC

Did you consider the thermalright HR-05 for your northbridge? That seems like it would cool better (I haven't ready any reviews or anything so i have no idea how it performs, but it looks like it should work well) and then you could probably just take out that fan.

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