Monday, March 06, 2017

The killing of more than 30,000 Jews on 29 and 30 September 1941 in the ravine Babi Yar in Kiev is known as the largest individual Nazi massacre. This posting continues and extends the collection of evidence in That's why it is denial, not revisionism. Part III: Deniers and Babiy Yar massacre (1). Numerous contemporary German sources cover the preparation and planning of the mass shooting (fabrication of wall posters by a Wehrmacht propaganda unit, delivery of 100,000 rounds of ammunition to the police forces of the Higher SS and Police Leader South-Russia and intention of Sonderkommando 4a to execute "at least 50,000 Jews"), its implementation (reports of Einsatzgruppen, Higher SS and Police Leader Russia-South, Wehrmacht, Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, German Foreign Office) and its clean up (Wehrmacht photographs). The mass killing was also echoed in contemporary diaries of the local population, contemporary Swiss, Soviet, Polish and US sources. A seperate posting will compile some of the testimonies of German paramilitary personnel, German civilians, local population and prisoners on the mass shooting and the later body disposal in 1943.

3.) Wall poster that "all Yids of the city of Kiev and its vicinity are to arrive by 8 o'clock on the morning of Monday, September 29th, 1941, to the corner of Mel'nikova and Dokterivskaja streets (near the cemeteries)".

"All Yids of the city of Kiev and its vicinity are to arrive by 8 o'clock
on the morning of Monday, September 29th, 1941, to the corner of
Mel'nikova and Dokterivskaja streets (near the cemeteries).

They are to take with them documents, money, valuables, as well as warm clothes, underwear, etc.
Any Yid not carrying out this instruction and who is found elsewhere will be shot.
Any citizen entering flats abandoned by the Yids and stealing property will be shot."

Note on the English translation: the word used in the Russian and Ukrainian versions is "zhidy", an extremely offensive slur that can be translated as "kikes" or "Yids". The German version has only "Jews" but it's the first two versions that would have been read by the people of Kiev.

4.) Activity report USSR no. 97 of the RSHA of 28 September 1941 that "execution of at least 50,000 Jews is planned" in Kiev.

"As has been proven, Jews were significantly involved in the arsons. Allegedly 150,000 Jews here. Confirmation of these figures has not been possible yet. 1,600 arrests were made in the course of the first action. Measures were started to register the entire Jewish population. Execution of at least 50,000 Jews is planned. Wehrmacht welcomes measures and demands radical action."

(NARA T-175/R233/1362; my translation)

5.) Report of the Higher SS and Police Leader Russia-South to the Kommandostab RFSS of 28 September 1941 on "cleaning action and cordon service in Kiev".

"Police Regiment South still security duties in Kiev and carrying out actions according to usage of war."

(USHMM RG-48.004M reel 1 FN 100584, courtesy of Nick Terry; also in Schneider, Auswärts eingesetzt. Bremer Polizeibataillone und der Holocaust, p. 460; my translation; on the meaning of "usage of war" as killing of Jews see this intercepted radio signal of 11 September 1941 on "actions according to usage of war....liquidated 1548 Jews" by Police Regiment South)

7.) Activity report USSR no. 101 of the RSHA of 2 October 1941 that "on 29 and 30 September 1941, 33,771 Jews were executed in Kiev"

The situation in Kiev is extremely difficult, mainly because of the fire. 1 km², densely built, burnt down and approx. 10 000 people have been homeless ...

[...]The homeless were for the most part to be accommodated in free Jewish apartments. The rest could return to their dwellings, as far as far as these were still usable, on the evening of 1 October after the barrier in the surrounding of the source of fire had been lifted. The population is estimated to be
about half than the normal figure, that is to say about 400,000. The
Jews of the city had been ordered to gather in a certain
place for the purpose of their registration and accommodation in a
camp. 34,000 showed up, including women and children. All were killed after they turned over their valuables and garments, which took several days. "

9.) Report of Hans Koch, liaison officer of the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, to the Army Group South of 5 October 1941 on "the Jews of the city were liquidated on 29th and 30th September, a total of 35,000 people (according to the SS commandos), half of whom were women".

"The fire of Kiev
(September 24-29 1941) has destroyed exactly the center, i.e. the most
beautiful and representative part of the city, with the two largest
hotels, the main post office, radio station, telegraph office and some
department stores. An area of about 2 square kilometers is affected, about 50,000 people are homeless; They were sheltered in abandoned quarters. As expiation for the obvious sabotage, the
Jews of the city were liquidated on 29th and
30th September, a total of 35,000 people (according to the SS
commandos), half of whom were women. As far as they knew about it all, the population calmly accepted the liquidations, often with satisfaction. The free Jewish homes were used reduce the dwelling misery."

10.) Activity report USSR no. 106 of the RSHA of 7 October 1941 on "an adequate number of apartments has been evacuated through the liquidation of approximately 35,000 Jews on 29 and 30 September 1941" and "In collaboration with the group staff and 2 Kommandos of the Police Regiment South, the Sonderkommando 4a executed on 29 and 30 September 33,771 Jews"

"As a result of the destruction of buildings in particular and of the evacuation of the endangered districts ordered by the authorities, approximately 25,000 persons were deprived of shelter and had to spend the first few days of the occupation outdoors. The inconveniences resulting from this were accepted by the population with calm. No serious incidents or panic occurred. Meanwhile the evacuated apartments, as far as they were not destroyed by fires or explosions, have again been put at the disposal of the population. Besides an adequate number of apartments has been evacuated through the liquidation of approximately 35,000 Jews on 29 and 30 September 1941, so that now shelter for the homeless is secured and has meanwhile also been allocated.

[...]

II Executions and Other Measures

Partly because of the better economic situation of the Jews under the Bolshevist regime and their activities as informers and agents of the NKVD, partly because of the explosions and the resulting fires, the public feeling against the Jews was very strong. As an added factor it was proved that the Jews participated in the arson. The population expected adequate retaliatory measures by the German authorities. Consequently all Jews of Kiev were requested, in agreement with the city commander, to appear on Monday, 29 September by 8 o'clock at a designated place. These announcements were posted by members of the Ukrainian militia in the entire city. Simultaneously it was announced orally that all Jews were to be moved. In collaboration with the group staff and 2 Kommandos of the Police Regiment South, the Sonderkommando 4a executed on 29 and 30 September 33,771 Jews. Money, valuables, underwear and clothing were secured and placed partly at the disposal of the NSV Nazi Party Public Welfare Organization for use of the racial Germans, partly given to the city administration authorities for use of the needy population. The transaction was carried out without friction. No incidents occurred. The "Resettlement measure" against the Jews was approved throughout by the population. The fact that in reality the Jews were liquidated was hardly known until now, according to up-to-date experiences it would, however, hardly have been objected to. The measures were also approved by the Wehrmacht. The Jews who were not yet apprehended as well as those who gradually returned from their flight to the city were in each case treated accordingly."

11.) Activity report USSR no. 111 of the RSHA of 12 October 1941 on "Sonderkommando 4a has reached the total number of 51,000 executions. With the exception of the special action on 28 and 29 September in Kiev, which was supported by two commandos of Police Regiment South, the executions were carried out by the SK without any other help".

Security police measures: Sonderkommando 4a has reached the total number of 51,000 executions. With the exception of the special action on 28 and 29 September in Kiev, which was supported by two commandos of Police Regiment South, the executions were carried out by the SK without any other help. Those executed were mostly Jews, a smaller part were political functionaries, saboteurs and plunderers."

(YVA O.51/164.111; my translation)

12.) Report of Ic 113th Infantry Division from 13 October 1941 on "the Jewish action carried out by Police Regiment 'South'".

27/09/41 beginning of the Jewish action carried out by Police Regiment "South"
...
Jewish action temporarily held until 03/10/41.

"It is ordered that the Jews are to be "resettled". This is done in such a way that the
Jews are ordered to gather in the following night with
their best clothes and jewlry at collection places. No difference is made between classes, sex and age. They
are then brought to a previously selected site outside the town. On the pretext that certain
formalities are still to be fulfilled, they have to put aside their jewlry and clothes. They are taken off side the street and liquidated. The resulting situations are so
shocking that they can not be described. The consequences for the
German commandos are inevitable. In general, the execution can only be carried out
under numbness with alcohol. A SD officer ordered to watch had to endure a nightmare of the most dreadful kind the following night according to his description."

15.) Activity report USSR no. 128 of the RSHA of 3 November 1941 on "more than 30,000 Jews showed up, who still believed into their resettlement until shortly before the execution thanks to an extremely clever organization".

"Several retaliatory measures were carried out during large scale actions. The largest action took place in Kiev after the capture; Jews and their entire families were exclusively used for this. The difficulties which are encountered from such a large scale action - espescially with regards to the gathering - were overcome by using using wall posters requesting the Jewish population to the resettlement. Although it was expected that about 5,000 to 6,000 Jews would participate, more than 30,000 Jews showed up, who still believed into their resettlement until shortly before the execution thanks to an extremely clever organization. Even if about 75,000 Jews have liquidated so far, it is clear that the solution of the Jewish question is not possible in this way."

(YVA, O.51/165.128; my translation)

16.) Operational and Situation report of the Einsatzgruppen in the USSR no. 6 for the period 1 to 31 October 1941 on "as a measure of retaliation for the arson at Kiev, all Jews were arrested and altogether 33,771 Jews were executed on 29 and 30 September".

"The embitterment of the Ukrainian population against the Jews is extremely great because they are thought responsible for the explosions in Kiev. They are also regarded as informers and agents of the NKVD who started the terror against the Ukrainian people. As a measure of retaliation for the arson at Kiev, all Jews were arrested and altogether 33,771 Jews were executed on 29 and 30 September."

19.) Report of Abwehr officer E. Kumming of 9 December 1941 that "in Kiev, about 42,000 - 48,000...were sent to the surroundings under the pretext of a resettlement and...were shot in a big depression".

"According to officers and Wehrmacht officials from Oflag XI a in Wladzmierez [...], the entire Jewish population of the Ukraine is currently liquidated. In Kiev, about 42,000 - 48,000 (the figures vary) were sent to the surroundings under the pretext of a resettlement and after removing their clothes were shot in a big depression."

(NARA RG242/338/18/404, courtesy of Nick Terry; my translation)

20.) Report of Martin Luther (German Foreign Office) of 10 December 1941 on "more than 33,000 Jews were executed".

"26. 9. 41[...]Many people have gathered around the recently published orders. Everyone is excited. I go on the street and read: "All Jews have to appear at the
cemetery and bring all valuables, furs and warm things, etc." What
does that mean?

28. 9. 41

In
the morning, my neighbour knocks at the door: "Look what's going on in
the street." I run out onto the balcony and see people passing by in an
almost endless column; They fill the whole street and sidewalks. There are women, men, young girls, children, old people, whole families. Many carry their belongings on wheelbarrows, but most carry their things on their shoulders. They walk in silence, quietly. It's scary. So it went for a long time, all day long, and it was not until evening that the number of people began to diminish. But on the morning they walked again and so it was for a few days ..."

We still do not know what they did with the Jews. People who have been in Luk'janovskoe cemetery are spreading horrible rumors. But so far it is impossible to believe these rumors. It is said that the Jews are being shot. Those
who accompanied them to the place where they were supposed to appear,
saw that the Jews go through a formation of German soldiers,
dropping all things. Their companions were chased away by the Germans.Some say they shoot the Jews with machine guns, that they shoot all of them without exception. The others say that sixteen railroad trains have been prepared for them to take them away. But where? Nobody knows any answer. One knows only one thing: all papers, belongings and food are taken from them. Then they are driven to Babij Jar and there ... I do not know what is there. I know only one thing, there is something terrible, horrible going on, something
incomprehensible that can not be understood or explained.

October 2, 1941

Everyone says that the Jews are murdered. No, not are murdered, but have already been murdered. All, without exception - old people, women and children. Those
who have returned home on Monday have been shot, too. This is still
what is said, but there can be no doubt that it is true. There were no trains leaving Lukjanovka. People have seen cars transporting warm clothes and other things from the cemetery. The German "diligence". They have already sorted the trophies! A
Russian girl has escorted his girlfriend to the cemetery and sneaked
from the other side through the fence. She has seen how undressed people were led in direction of Babij Jar and heard shots of guns. There are more and more of these rumors and reports. Their enormity does not want to enter our heads. But we are compelled to believe them, for the shooting of the Jews is a fact. A fact that is beginning to rob us all of our minds. It is impossible to recognize this fact and simply live on. The women around us cry. And we? We also cried on September 29, when we thought they were being transported to the concentration camp. But now? Is it possible to cry?"

"In the
hinterland of Kiev, thousands of Jews of every sex and age have been
shot. They have been buried in mass graves, which they mostly had to
dig before their shooting, partly with shovels used by
children as toys. The shootings are carried out by formations of the SS, by soldiers of the
regular army and labour service men between the age 16 and 18 years. The soldiers showed marked inferiority feelings when they had
to carry out such executions. The labour service men were totally done when they did these executions."

"In Kiev (mainly Jewish population), about 120,000 people are supposed to have been killed (only heard about it). At both places, this allegedly happened as retaliation measure because of countless time bomb explosions etc. by the Russians."

"Kiev: At the beginning of October 1941: 40,000 Jews (men, women and children shot). The Jews were ordered to line up with 50kg baggage. March into the sandpits: shot. Walls of the sand pits blown up so that mass graves were formed"

Contemporary Soviet Sources

39.) Report of Aleksei Popov of 4 December 1941 on "eighty thousand Jews have been killed in Kiev".

"At the end of the month of September or the beginning of October, the Germans brought in at least five hundred Jews from Kiev, beaten up and naked—the men only in shorts, the women in underclothes. All the Jews were bloodied from wounds to the head and body. The Jews were brought in on a Saturday and placed on the bare earth near the fence of the damp camp. They lay there for one night. But the second day was Sunday, the Germans did not work, and only on the third day did the Germans take the Jews out for execution by shooting.
...
...eighty thousand Jews have been killed in Kiev.
...
In late September, throughout the city of Kiev the Germans posted orders that said: All Jews must come to the Jewish cemetery with their valuables and money. The Jews assumed that the Germans would evict them, and the families came to the cemetery with their belongings. Some Jews were accompanied by Russians. At the cemetery the Germans seized all the Jews and the Russians who accompanied Jewish acquaintances, herded them into a ravine, and shot them all
...
In late September, I don’t remember what date, at noon, at least two hundred of us prisoners were taken to work under heavy guard. Leaving the city, we saw [arrayed] on the road over a distance of one hundred meters piles of outer clothing and various small pieces of furniture between the clothing, and also food, and a little farther along the road a heap of at least a thousand passports. Beyond the city, we were herded toward a deep ravine, on the side of which lay just as much clothing as on the road and there lay scattered identity papers and identity cards with glued photos of Jews. We were forced into the ravine, on the bottom of which lay the corpses of at least a thousand people, thinly covered with sand. The hands and feet of some of them were still visible. The clothing in the ravine was that of men, women, and children, from which one could conclude that the corpses in the ravine were women, men, and children.
...
I have forgotten the name of the ravine where I, with prisoners and others, buried Jews - it was Babii or Tetkin."

40.) Communique of People's Commissar of Foreign Affairs Viacheslav Molotov to Ambassadors of Foreign Countries of 6 January 1942 on "In only a few days the German bandits killed and tortured 52,000 men, women, old men [i.e. people], and children".

"Horrible slaughter and pogroms were committed by the German invaders in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev. In only a few days the German bandits killed and tortured 52,000 men, women, old men [i.e. people], and children, mercilessly dealing with all Ukrainians, Russians, and Jews who in any manner displayed their loyalty to the Soviet government. Soviet civilians who have escaped from Kiev describe the astounding picture of these mass executions. : . A large number of Jews, including women and children, were assembled together in the Jewish cemetery. Before [the] shooting, all of them were stripped naked and beaten up. The first group selected for shooting were made to lie down at the bottom of a ditch [ravine?], face to the ground, and were shot with automatic rifles. The Germans slighted with earth covered over the victims and then the second party of Jews were made to lie down and were shot with automatic rifles…."

41.) Report of the Political Administration of the 18th army to the Political Administration of the Southern Front of 15 January 1942 on the testimony of the secret agents "Klimenko" and "Romanchuk" that "the German bandits undressed and executed all the Jews who appeared at the cemetery" and "blew up the square where the mountains of corpses were lying"

TRANSLATION

"The people’s avengers went into action. On September 24, 1941 the Children’s World shop was blown up. The German municipal commandant’s office had been established in this building. For four days one building after another was blown up on the Khreshchatyk and adjacent streets. The Germans suffered great losses here, for the most part in senior officers.

In response to the partisans’ actions the Hitlerite swine began carrying out bestial reprisals against the peaceful population. On September 28, 1941 the German commandant of the city issued an order. It said approximately: “All Jews in Kyiv are to report by 8.00 on September 28, 1941 to the Baikove cemetery. Every Jew must bring warm clothing and valuables. Failure to obey the order will mean execution on the spot.” The German bandits undressed and executed all the Jews who appeared at the cemetery. Some Jews went into hiding when they learned about this violent reprisal. Then the city commandant issued orders that “All building managers are immediately to carry out searches and immediately report any Jews they discover to the police.” On September 29 and 30 Hitlerite bandits assisted by members of the Black Hundred and Ukrainian nationalists carried out monstrous pogroms. A round-up of the Jewish population was carried out. All who were ill, elderly or crippled were dragged from their flats, placed in vehicles and driven to the cemetery. There they were mocked and executed..

“Klimenko” and “Romanchuk” were on Shevchenko Boulevard on September 29, 1941 and saw a staggering scene. A cart was moving along the roadway. An ill elderly woman was lying in the cart. Elderly men and women who were barely able to move their feet were walking behind the cart. They were being escorted by Hitlerite rogues from the Gestapo. When the elderly people stumbled and fell, they were beaten with butt-stocks and forced to go on by bayonets. A mountain of corpses had been piled up at the cemetery. There were also children of those who had been executed, amongst them infants. The Hitlerite scoundrels pierced them with bayonets with monstrous bestial sang-froid or simply picked them up by their feet and threw them into the pit.

Having completed their monstrous crime against innocent people in Kyiv, the Hitlerite cutthroats blew up the square where the mountains of corpses were lying. But the Hitlerite gang was not satisfied with this. Using their favourite method of provocation, the Hitlerite bandits from the Gestapo found a pretext to set on fire all the markets in Kyiv. Afterwards came an order from the city commandant about the execution of a hundred and later three hundred persons."

42.) Report of the Central Staff of the Partisan Movement of 16 October 1942 that the "the Germans shot 40,000 Jews" in Kiev.

"During the first days of the occupation in Kiev at the Jewish cemetery the Germans shot 40,000 Jews. The adults were shot with machine-guns, while the children and elderly were thrown alive into the 'Babi Yar' [Ravine]"

43.) Report of D.I. Volevich to the organization department of the Kiev city committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, 1942/1943 on "they [the Jews] were shot near pits that had been dug there...All that day, indeed, machine-gun fire was heard".

On September 28 [1941] the Jews were allowed to enter their apartments to prepare [supposedly, for their resettlement]. On September 29, 1941 from about 7-8 a.m. the Jews started to pass through the Jewish market along Dmitrievskaya Street. They were going individually, in families, and in crowds. They carried their belongings with them. They were going with their small children. They were accompanied by many Russians [and] Ukrainians, who helped them to carry their belongings. I was told by many people about the procession to the cemetery. I got the impression that very many of them scarecly imagined that they were going to be shot. Generally, in my opinion, the [non-Jewish] population [also] did not believe that the Jews would be shot. I personally was sure they were going to be sent across the frontlines…Almost all the Jews to whom I spoke responded positively, without animosity, asking me…to help them to carry [their belongings]. There were also people who looked at me with hatred and did not reply. Crowds of people were standing on Dmitrievskaya Street and watching this sad procession. Germans in brown uniforms stood with the people, in front of them. There were few of them. It was said that many Ukrainian relatives and acquaintances accompanied [the Jews] to the cemetery: there was one place which once you passed it you could not go back. People said that many Ukrainians and Russians who accompanied [the Jews] perished at the cemetery. For example, it was said that about 25 Ukrainian girls who had their passports taken from them were among the first to be shot. It was [also] said that [first] people were forced to strip and, after their clothes and the belongings were put aside, they [the Jews] were shot near pits that had been dug there. Their passports were taken away and their belongings were sorted right there on the spot. Their gold and valuables were put into washtubs. All that day, indeed, machine-gun fire was heard...

"Only in one day, 29 September, the Germans called the Jews, who were ordered to take valuables and warm clothes with them, to Lukyanovka cemetery, robbed and stripped them and then shot all of them - more than 30 000 people, mostly the elderly, women and children."

My good acquaintance, the Russian workerwith, B., lived on Yudovska Street. He took me in, as his own, gave me food, clothes and told me what was happening in the city. "Khreshchatykis destroyed, all that remains is one wall –the home of what was once theParliament. The fascists set on fire Nikolaev and Proreznayastreets. Afterwards, as the partisans isolatedthe Hotel Continental, wheremany Germanswere to be found, people were hung in all the city's streets.In the morning ofa day at the end of September,the city rangoutwith an order from the German commander: over the course of three days all the city's Jews must gather in Lukianov, in the area ofthe Jewish cemetery. For three days Kiev was in a state of terror. I was standingin a back courtyard on KoscielnaStreet and saw with my own eyes how thousands and thousands of Jews –old men, women, children, sick from the hospital, dragged themselves on their last journey from the city to the cemetery. My brother Leyb walked together with the dreadful funeral procession, his wife Riva with her twins in her arms. Her blind father –our relative by marriage,Shapiro.Many Russian and Ukrainian neighborsand friends accompanied the Jews. Their eyes were swollen from tears, their faces black, they wereonly allowed to go as far as Vladimir Bergland there they were stopped. Meanwhile the Jews were urged onwards. In the Lukianovcemetery the Jews were made to undress to their shirts and driven to the deep Lukianovditch. On the edge they shot at them with machine guns. Over the course of three days 56 thousand Jews were murdered. Those not hit by a bullet and the wounded were buried

Contemporary Polish Sources

46.) Report of Armia Krajowa to the Polish exile goverment in London for the period 16 - 28 February 1942 on "All Jews, there were still about 70,000 in Kiev, especially women, the elderly and children, were shot with machine guns in pits that they had to dig themselves."

"During our stay
in Kiev, the SS carried out bloody massacres of Jews. All Jews, there were still about 70,000 in Kiev, especially women, the elderly and children, were
shot with machine guns in pits that they had to dig themselves."

Contemporary US Sources

47.) Report of a Swiss informant to OSS New York of 7 November 1942 on the Soviet Government "estimated the number of murdered persons in Kiev at 52.000".

BACK TRANSLATION FROM GERMAN

"The official
memorandum of the Soviet Government on atrocities of the Germans of 6 January 1942 estimated the number of murdered persons in Kiev at
52.000; it can be assumed that the majority were Jews."

Reactionary, the burial site was cleared by the Germans in 1943. Any lack of residues only says something about how thorough this activity was (plus how thorough post-war investigations were) but it says nothing about that more than 30,000 Jews had not been shot there.

Reactionary, the mass graves were destroyed by Sonderkommando 1005 in 1943. The process was described by numerous witnesses, incl. the Jews that were burning the bodies (and were able to escape, though most of them were shot during the escape attempt) and the members of SK 1005. The traces (ashes) were there also after the liberation. Anatoly Kuznetsov, for example, describes how he found a lump of ashes in the ravine, took it with him and still had it when writing his famous BY book.

What the fuck does this denier cliche even mean? Do you think that nobody ever looked at the Babi Yar ravine (or any other killing site) after the war, or is "have the massgraves been found" a goalpost-moving exercise for deniers?

So the bodies were dug up and burned. Revisionists would argue that there still today would be much ash to be found, and bone fragments, hundreds of thousands of teeth (28*30000 = about 840.000 only at Babij Jar. And teeth are not easy to burn away, virtually impossible.) and other human traces after so many 30.000 peolpe, even if the bodies where burned. And ground disturbance would still been seen today.

So how would you answer that?

"What the fuck does this denier cliche even mean? Do you think that nobody ever looked at the Babi Yar ravine (or any other killing site) after the war, or is "have the massgraves been found" a goalpost-moving exercise for deniers?"

I do not know the answer to your question, because I am not a "revisionist" you should ask them instead. However, I am interested about knowing how you would respond to the arguments that I read that they use.

The reason you are getting some rude replies is very simple: you are asking questions not so much from a position of curiosity but rather from a position of lazy ignorance. Basically you expect us to spoon-feed you the basics which you are obliged to learn yourself. For example you claim that ground disturbance should be seen even today, blissfully unaware that the ravine hasn't existed for over half a century.

No, I'd like you to answer my question since you asked 'have massgraves been found?' What do you think?

You could find out the answer yourself, instead you ask us. There has been some discussion of the Bab Yar site on the blog before, look at the tags - so a basic answer to your query (you've had several informal responses) means repeating ourselves, which becomes very tedious. A more detailed answer is wasted below the line in a comments thread - we're likely to put up a blog post about the physical site in the future, don't know when.

Part 2 of this series by Hans will concern testimonies, so we're nowhere near done.

Given the Antisemitic content of the German documents Hans shared- namely the fantasy of Jews "collaborating" with the NKVD as well as the implicit justifications for the killings and victim blaming, we can completely rule out any claims of "forgery" whether by the Western Allies or Jews.

Karel Berkhoff has researched the postwar history of the ravine, following the 1943 destruction of the mass graves and burning of corpses described by Sergey Romanov above. Berkhoff says that in late 1943 Soviet journalists were brought to Babi Yar, one later recalling that, despite the SK1005 work at the site, parts of corpses were visible were earlier detonations had exposed them. Later regional NKVD organized excavation at Babi Yar found human remains (this excavation also included Syrets camp and was carried out by 823 German prisoners, one of whom later stated that 160 of the 823 chosen to excavate 5 graves had discovered burnt corpses and body parts). During the following years, locals, much as did locals at Treblnka (as Jan Gross has documented) dug for gold and treasure among the remains in the ravine. Babi Yar during these years began to used as an illegal dumping ground. Students at the School of Military Medicine made use of the walls of the ravine as a firing range.

In 1950, authorities decided to flood and fill the ravine. Water was pumped in - however, in 1961 the dam constructed to hold the muddy water back failed - and a large mudslide into the outskirts of Kiev ensue: “a mass of heavy dirt, built up over years, thirteen feet (four meters) high, streamed out and pushed into the city.” Berkhoff describes this lake water/mud mix as foul smelling and said that bones and other remains from the ravine were washed out of it. At least 145 residents died in this event, known as the Kurenivka Tragedy.

When the poet Yevtushenko visited the site in August 1961, he witnessed trucks dumping garbage into the still-flooded ravine. Even after the mudslide, during 1962, Berkhoff says, human remains including bones were still being turned up by locals in the area. Mid-decade saw children with sharp sticks digging up skulls. In summer of 1971 three American students visiting the USSR found human bones scattered over large area at site.

Today, over the now-filled-in ravine there is an arterial road (Novo-Okruzhna Street), completed in 1969. By the end of the 1970s the rest of the surface area had been made a “Park of Culture and Recreation” which includes, if my notes are correct, a football stadium.

The revisionists that would say that today there should be x,y or z on or near the surface would seem to be ignorant of the postwar history of the site which Berkhoff has researched.

-Babi Yar during these years began to used as an illegal dumping ground. Students at the School of Military Medicine made use of the walls of the ravine as a firing range.

In 1950, authorities decided to flood and fill the ravine. Water was pumped in - however, in 1961 the dam constructed to hold the muddy water back failed - and a large mudslide into the outskirts of Kiev ensue: “a mass of heavy dirt, built up over years, thirteen feet (four meters) high, streamed out and pushed into the city.” Berkhoff describes this lake water/mud mix as foul smelling and said that bones and other remains from the ravine were washed out of it. At least 145 residents died in this event, known as the Kurenivka Tragedy-

Nothing proves "Judeo Bolshevism" like the Bolshevik authorities' revolting disregard for the bodies and resting place of Innocent Jewish Civilians. ;)

" - we're likely to put up a blog post about the physical site in the future, don't know when. "

Ok, great.

"Given the Antisemitic content of the German documents Hans shared- namely the fantasy of Jews "collaborating" with the NKVD as well as the implicit justifications for the killings and victim blaming, we can completely rule out any claims of "forgery" whether by the Western Allies or Jews."

So the allied and jews can not make fake documents with antisemitic content to make it look authentic?

-To gain support for Zionism, it would be perfect to show documents of masskillings of jews, real or false document.-

I'm not going to derail this discussion about 100% authentic and reliable wartime documents by arguing whether or not the Holocaust justifies the existence and policies of Israel.

Taken in isolation, the German situation reports make it look like the Jews brought ruin on themselves, because they allegedly collaborated with the NKVD or participated in sabotage. They do not help the case for Zionism, which assumes that Antisemites attacked and/or killed Jews for no reason. Therefore, they are not forgeries, and they were not "forged" with the intent of promoting a narrative. Their authors were lying assholes, just like the Bullshitter to whom this response is directed to.

Reactionary, I've not insulted you in my replies. By asking you what the hell 'have the massgraves been found?' even means, I invited you to think through what is being asked here.

You know that we know this is a standard denier question. We've answered it in the past! We'll answer it again - and it can be answered independently by reading open-access sources such as Karel Berkhoff's lecture for USHMM that Statistical Mechanic summarisedhttps://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/Publication_OP_2011-02.pdfThe mudslide is in the Wiki page after discussing 1005 and memorialshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar#Concealment_of_the_crimes

I wanted you to think through what this question means also from the perspective of Friedrich Berg or another denier. You asked this 'on behalf of' the deniers, expecting that we have some snappy answer. The snappy answer to those deniers is that they should fuck off to the archives and demonstrate they know the sources and literature about the Babi Yar site.

If they don't know this evidence then they don't have any claim to be taken seriously in any discussion about the site. Some of the evidence is touched on in Berkhoff's lecture, other aspects require knowing about things like the Extraordinary Commission, and they all certainly require a knowledge of Russian. This isn't stuff that can be summarised below the line in a blog comments thread.

If you want to ask general-knowledge queries then please express them in a sensible *non-denierish* way, that doesn't offload the burden of looking things up entirely onto others and doesn't expect them to start writing reams of stuff in a comments thread.

In this case: what is a good source about the Babi Yar ravine and mass graves after the war? Or: has anything been written about the Babi Yar mass graves? Answer: some HC blog posts and Berkhoff's lecture are good starting points.

>> So the allied and jews can not make fake documents with antisemitic content to make it look authentic?

It would be theoretically possible, for argument's sake.

Many things are possible, some are more far-fetched than others of course. In this case, given the diversity of corroborating sources, the variety of documents you want to be fake, and the complete lack of evidence for forgery, your hope is practically equivalent to impossible.

Historians have studied these documents and have not found indications of forgery or fabrication. Have you? What makes you think that they might be inauthentic other than the outcome you wish to arrive at?

The issue of ashes, bones and teeth is extremely banal. Teeth may not burn away but they become extremely fragile in fire. In virtually every case of body disposal known to us the unburned remains were destroyed with special "hammers". This means that the fragile teeth were simply destroyed together with bones.

The ashes mixed with bone and teeth fragments were then dispersed over large areas near the body disposal sites (when rivers or lakes were available, they would have been dumped there). So again, while we would expect to see traces of ashes, because you can't clean up everything, there is never an expectation of finding the whole ash contents concentrated in some small area and amenable to quantification.

What was found at the murder and body disposal sites is thus * compatible* with the witness testimonies, or, to put it in a slightly different way, it cannot be shown to be incompatible with them.The conclusive evidence comes from the documents and the testimonies.

>> Since anything can be faked, it is hardly a useful question to ask when there is no actual indication of fakery.

From reactionary's comments here, it appears that his basis for raising the issue of faked documents is his desire, rather than any evidence or indications of fakery he has seen. Of course, he has yet to make clear what he has seen and studied. But what he seems to be doing is hunting for shreds of, er, anything that might support his desire rather than using the voluminous available evidence to understand the events. This is the epitome of a biased approach.

If reactionary has indications of forgery or manipulation of the large number of sources for Babi Yar, why doesn't he provide such indications and ask specific questions about them? Again, he seems to prefer sweeping statements based on something in his own head.

Im not a denier. I just listen to the Eric Hunt Vs Fredrich Berg debate, and what Berg said about Babi Yar. I just bring it up here, and as a possible tip for you, to might pick it up and write about, if it would be interesting. Sorry that I asked.

Reactionary - perhaps FP Berg said something about forgery that you wanted to latch onto. You should be aware that FP Berg tried to show Einsatzgruppen report nr 101 to be fabricated due to what he perceived as unusual formatting. (That's but one report out of many, of course.) Hans has shown that the supposedly unusual formatting to be anything but unusual. Even one of Berg's defenders has had to agree that the evidence presented by Berg is "not good." I don't know what Berg's response will be, but his claims don't even convince his denier allies.

Great, piling up the mess. But the most important "legal" document (used to convict lots of people) is missing: IMT 7, Page 556, telling a tale of about 100 000. Where did they get this official number from? Just have a look at this document of Kumming: Shootings of 17 000 on 29.10.41 in Rowne. I have learned in my Wikipedia about shootings in Riwne / Rowno / Rowne of 23 000 on 8. and 9.10.41, account based on witnesses, of course. Jeffrey Burds tells you in http://www1.jewishgen.org/yizkor/rovno2/files/Rovno_Burds.pdf even higher numbers and the 6. and 7.9.41 or no dates at all. But were there any forensic activities at this gruesome place afterwards? I don't know of any. Oh wait, there is a photo on page 82 in the Burds-book. But ... is this snow? Are they lying flatly on earth, not in a pit? Compare it with Kumming. So many questions - and some answers are not allowed.

Revisionism is just about getting out of this heap of communist shit. The most honest approach would be to set the counter of victims to 0 and to begin counting again, based primarily on physical evidence. That's all about revisionism. I assume, that nearly all honest historians tried something like this after 1990, to some degree at least. And interestingly, for some reason no one wants to believe the documents and witnesses of the Soviets anymore, so the credibility of the "barbarian" Germans seems to be far higher now. This is ironic, at least. - No, I am not an expert in anything, just thinking. Yes, you may call me names. Yes, maybe the 3XXXX are correct. - Enjoy the peace.

> But the most important "legal" document (used to convict lots of people) is missing: IMT 7, Page 556

You may want to re-read the name of the posting.

> IMT 7, Page 556, telling a tale of about 100 000. Where did they get this official number from?

A rough estimate based on summing up the real as well as imagined victims together. The estimate the contemporary historiography has no use for and which is hardly relevant to any serious discussion of the well-documented massacre.

As for the origin, those victims would be: the Jews, the Soviet POWs, the people executed in the ravine for two years.

Of those we have some info only on the first two categories. The minimum number of the Jewish victims is ~34000 (probably there were more since smaller actions continued).

According to the Jewish inmates burning the bodies at BY, there were 20-25000 bodies of the Soviet POWs in a separate grave. Knowing how the Soviet POWs were treated by the Germans this is not far-fetched. Of course, being a crude estimate, it should give the big picture but should not be taken as a Holy Writ. And estimating the numbers of those executed in the BY for the rest of the two years would be near to impossible. But then, the Soviet estimates are notorious for their crudeness.

All in all it is plausible that there were around 60K victims there, give or take some, at least half of them Jews. The minimum *documented* number you will see in the document above.

> But were there any forensic activities at this gruesome place afterwards? I don't know of any.

So you mean you have gone to the ChGK files and made sure that no investigations were done on the site? Oh wait, you probably expected to find everything in wikipedia :D

But of course, if we were to cite the Soviet investigations of the mass graves you would just dismiss them as, well, Soviet. Nice, totally invincible position, LOL.

> Revisionism is just about getting out of this heap of communist shit.

Denial is 99,9% about Nazi apologia and 0,1% about delusion (I mean those 0,1% of deniers who are not antisemitic, like our own Jason, who once upon a time was a denier before he grew out of it).

Denial aka "revisionism" has, of course, no connection to any quest for the historical truth. Indeed, your comment is a good illustration. The Babiy Yar massacre is extremely well-documented, so anyone who does care about the historical truth simply accepts it as fact. You don't, therefore you don't care about the historical truth.

> The most honest approach would be to set the counter of victims to 0 and to begin counting again, based primarily on physical evidence.

If by "honest" you mean "braindead" and "completely unjustified". A proposal to count the number of victims based on the bodies long gone (most of them burned by the Nazis specifically to cover up the crimes) is not even a clever troll provocation. It's just boring dimness. (And of course it would bring the unintended consequences with itself, like wiping the slate of Stalin's crimes clean. Right, it's not like the forensic evidence of Stalin's crimes is different from that of Hitler's.)

> And interestingly, for some reason no one wants to believe the documents and witnesses of the Soviets anymore,

The voices in your head do not equal everyone, so "no one" is a bit of an exaggeration.

But whatever one might think of the Soviets, one doesn't have to listen to them, the German documents speak for themselves.

I have deleted my original comment because I have now further researched the case of Hermann Graebe, and it becomes apparent there is many attempts to portray the Der Spiegel from 1965 on Grabe article as part of a huge smear campaign against Graebe. I found out this case from the link your provided for the original Ohlendorf testimony at the Avalon Project site

If I have understood everything correctly, based on the statements of Graebe, George Marschall was arrested and sentenced for life for the orders he gave to hang a Jewish carpenter in. However a lawyer by the name of Shumann showed that Grabe had given false testimony about the year he was excluded from the Nazi part and demanded a retrial of George Marschall, who was sentenced to prison based on Graebe's testimony. So If I have correctly understand what happened later, Graebe recanted his earlier statement and now is claiming that it was all for hearsay. If this version of events is accurate(unless I have misunderstood something), then what to make of the claim that he escaped from Germany in 1948 due to being labelled a traitor by his own country men for his willingness to tell about the atrocities committed by his own people? The problem with this is that is not mentioned in the Der Spiegel article and it is important to keep in mind that the article is from 1965. The first mention of him being labelled as a traitor and even receiving death threats, forcing him to leave country in 1948 comes from what I have understood from 1985 book called :"The Moses of Rowno: The Stirring Story by Fritz Graebe"Can any of you shed light on this issue, because I feel like it is relevant to determining whether there is room for doubt of the authenticity of any documents pertaining to the extermination of Jews.

Graebe's post-1945 statements were based on contemporary notes/diaries, and indeed are very detailed - some I have seen (scanned in Yad Vashem's document archive) include maps for specific towns. I don't believe Graebe recanted these statements, but the specific accusation against Marschall may well be the one that was hearsay. Marschall's final sentence after a retrial was 5 years.

In 2015, the diaries and letters of a German nurse posted to the same region of Volhynia as Grabe, Annette Schuecking, were published; these contemporary sources note and record the same massacres that Graebe testified to. In some cases Schuecking learned of them while visiting the towns in question a week or two after the 'action', from conversations with other Germans, but this is the trade-off one makes with contemporary sources - most will technically be hearsay, i.e. reports whether official or unofficial reaching some locality near to events - whereas direct-eyeball witnesses generally testify later.

There were other witnesses and survivors from Zdolbunow/Sdolbunow who testified to events there, ditto for Dubno, Rowno and other locations reported by Graebe. To quote from the USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos vol II, p.1505, entry for Zdolbunow:

"After the war, several former officials of the German civil administration and police in Zdołbunów were put on trial in Germany. On May 27, 1963, the Landgericht in Nürnberg-Fürth sentenced Paur and Wacker to seven years and three years eight months in prison, respectively (including the term of imprisonment before the trial). Otto Köller was acquitted. Another defendant, former Gendarme Friedrich Attinger, committed suicide before the start of the trial. On May 9, 1967, Landgericht Stade sentenced Georg Marschall to fi ve years in prison. Marschall was convicted of being an accomplice in the hanging of a Jewish carpenter. In Poland, Rudolf Ignatowicz, an ethnic German, was sentenced to death in 1947 for capturing and handing over Jews in Gebiet Sdolbunow."

These judgements are published in the Justiz und NS-Verbrechen series, which is available in major libraries, and these would be considered important first stops for serious researchers.

Note that Soviet investigations of the Extraordinary Commission and other collections of testimonies are also typically cited in the relatively short ghetto encyclopedia entries; there will nearly always be be other sources, since historians might write a paragraph or two in a larger work on a specific event, and will not have the space to include all sources on the event.

Therefore, as a rule of thumb, for every 'key witness' from Nuremberg or who is attacked by deniers, there are always other sources on the same killing action or locality. This might be called the Gerstein Rule - Gerstein was certainly the major source in the west for a long time re Belzec, but not only did Rudolf Reder leave testimonies, but other investigations interrogated dozens of German, Polish and Ukrainian witnesses to the camp.

Thank you for your response. I think there was some misunderstanding on what I said. When I said recanted, I meant that he was claiming that it was all based on hearsay. My question was did he make the claim that it was based on hearsay during the trial or the retrial of Marschall. According to the Der Spiegel article, he was sentences to life imprisoment based on Graeb's statement. Is this accurate or not?