Flourescent lamps and control circuits

I'm trying to establish how compact the control gear can be for a certain
flourescent lamp.

If I buy a regular energy saving lamp (say a 11W CFL) to replace a regular
incadescent lamp, the electronic control is built into the lamp and it's
obviously very compact because it's in with the lamp itself. Also cheap to
produce. A lamp like:

Now lets say I want to replace my energy saving CFL lamp with a four foot
regular tube flourescent. Right now I'm thinking that I have to buy an
expensive, and quite large ballast to run that kind of lamp. I'm not certain
though about that.

I think this CFL is a single tube lamp. A simple tube flourescent bent back
into itself. So, I think I have no option to buy an expensive and quite
large conventional or electronic ballast for this lamp, because it's
essentially a tube flourescent. Like:

Advertisements

In article <>,
"Richard" <> writes:
> I'm not an engineer.
>
> I'm trying to establish how compact the control gear can be for a certain
> flourescent lamp.
>
> If I buy a regular energy saving lamp (say a 11W CFL) to replace a regular
> incadescent lamp, the electronic control is built into the lamp and it's
> obviously very compact because it's in with the lamp itself. Also cheap to
> produce. A lamp like:
>
> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/2523/plet-economy-energy-saver-11w-es/
>
> Now lets say I want to replace my energy saving CFL lamp with a four foot
> regular tube flourescent. Right now I'm thinking that I have to buy an
> expensive, and quite large ballast to run that kind of lamp. I'm not certain
> though about that.
>
> The thing is I've been looking at some PL-L CFLs, like:
>
> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>
> I think this CFL is a single tube lamp. A simple tube flourescent bent back
> into itself. So, I think I have no option to buy an expensive and quite
> large conventional or electronic ballast for this lamp, because it's
> essentially a tube flourescent. Like:
>
> http://laukgroup.com/acatalog/Philips_HF-PERFORMER_II_PL-L_6370030.html
>
> But, I wish I could buy contol gear that was inexpensive and compact. Not
> unlike the control gear in the regular energy saving CFL you buy to replace
> your regular incadescent lamp.
>
> Is the control gear I'm wanting out there and I've not spotted it yet, or
> what?

The Philips Matchbox ballasts are the smallest I know
of (apparently, sold as Advance Matchbox in the US).
This is what I used in that last link. There are 3 or
4 different power ranges available, covering 4W - 24W.
They are each available in two case shapes or just the
bare boards (again, the two shapes). They also come as
instant start (blue label) or preheat (red label), but
both types require use of preheat (4-pin) tubes.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Advertisements

"Andrew Gabriel" <> wrote in message
news:48729b2e$0$78075$...
> In article <>,
> "Richard" <> writes:
>> I'm not an engineer.
>>
>> I'm trying to establish how compact the control gear can be for a certain
>> flourescent lamp.
>>
>> If I buy a regular energy saving lamp (say a 11W CFL) to replace a
>> regular
>> incadescent lamp, the electronic control is built into the lamp and it's
>> obviously very compact because it's in with the lamp itself. Also cheap
>> to
>> produce. A lamp like:
>>
>> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/2523/plet-economy-energy-saver-11w-es/
>>
>> Now lets say I want to replace my energy saving CFL lamp with a four foot
>> regular tube flourescent. Right now I'm thinking that I have to buy an
>> expensive, and quite large ballast to run that kind of lamp. I'm not
>> certain
>> though about that.
>>
>> The thing is I've been looking at some PL-L CFLs, like:
>>
>> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>>
>> I think this CFL is a single tube lamp. A simple tube flourescent bent
>> back
>> into itself. So, I think I have no option to buy an expensive and quite
>> large conventional or electronic ballast for this lamp, because it's
>> essentially a tube flourescent. Like:
>>
>> http://laukgroup.com/acatalog/Philips_HF-PERFORMER_II_PL-L_6370030.html
>>
>> But, I wish I could buy contol gear that was inexpensive and compact. Not
>> unlike the control gear in the regular energy saving CFL you buy to
>> replace
>> your regular incadescent lamp.
>>
>> Is the control gear I'm wanting out there and I've not spotted it yet, or
>> what?
>
> See: http://www.cucumber.demon.co.uk/lights/diy/
> and: http://www.cucumber.demon.co.uk/lights/diy2/

Lets imagine that I want to run the following CFL (I think it's a CFL):

In article <>,
"Richard" <> writes:
>
> Lets imagine that I want to run the following CFL (I think it's a CFL):
>
> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>
> I'm not sure, but I think this would be roughly equivalent to a T5 24W 640mm
> long tube flourescent.
>
> What you did was take the control gear from a 11W CFL, and used it to drive
> a 13W T5 tube.
>
> Are we saying then, that I can take the control gear from a 23W CFL, and use
> it to drive a 24W PL-L lamp like the one in the link?

You can certainly try it. Check it with a true power meter to
see what the power consumption actually is. Best results would
be from ballast from a CFL with similar diameter tube.
> But if that were the case, why can you not buy this space-saving and
> economical control gear instead of the expensive control gear? Or can you?

"Richard" <> wrote in message
news:...
>
> "Andrew Gabriel" <> wrote in message
> news:48729b2e$0$78075$...
>> In article <>,
>> "Richard" <> writes:
>>> I'm not an engineer.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to establish how compact the control gear can be for a
>>> certain
>>> flourescent lamp.
>>>
>>> If I buy a regular energy saving lamp (say a 11W CFL) to replace a
>>> regular
>>> incadescent lamp, the electronic control is built into the lamp and it's
>>> obviously very compact because it's in with the lamp itself. Also cheap
>>> to
>>> produce. A lamp like:
>>>
>>> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/2523/plet-economy-energy-saver-11w-es/
>>>
>>> Now lets say I want to replace my energy saving CFL lamp with a four
>>> foot
>>> regular tube flourescent. Right now I'm thinking that I have to buy an
>>> expensive, and quite large ballast to run that kind of lamp. I'm not
>>> certain
>>> though about that.
>>>
>>> The thing is I've been looking at some PL-L CFLs, like:
>>>
>>> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>>>
>>> I think this CFL is a single tube lamp. A simple tube flourescent bent
>>> back
>>> into itself. So, I think I have no option to buy an expensive and quite
>>> large conventional or electronic ballast for this lamp, because it's
>>> essentially a tube flourescent. Like:
>>>
>>> http://laukgroup.com/acatalog/Philips_HF-PERFORMER_II_PL-L_6370030.html
>>>
>>> But, I wish I could buy contol gear that was inexpensive and compact.
>>> Not
>>> unlike the control gear in the regular energy saving CFL you buy to
>>> replace
>>> your regular incadescent lamp.
>>>
>>> Is the control gear I'm wanting out there and I've not spotted it yet,
>>> or
>>> what?
>>
>> See: http://www.cucumber.demon.co.uk/lights/diy/
>> and: http://www.cucumber.demon.co.uk/lights/diy2/
>
>
> Lets imagine that I want to run the following CFL (I think it's a CFL):
>
> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>
> I'm not sure, but I think this would be roughly equivalent to a T5 24W
> 640mm
> long tube flourescent.
>
> What you did was take the control gear from a 11W CFL, and used it to
> drive
> a 13W T5 tube.
>
> Are we saying then, that I can take the control gear from a 23W CFL, and
> use
> it to drive a 24W PL-L lamp like the one in the link?
>
> But if that were the case, why can you not buy this space-saving and
> economical control gear instead of the expensive control gear? Or can you?

Some questions:

Is there a distinction regarding control gear, between Flourescent Tube
Lamps (FLTs) and Compact Florescent Lamps (CFLs)?

Is the 24W PL-L lamp in the link a CFL or FTL?

What does PL-L stand for?

If the 24W PL-L lamp in the limk is a FTL what is it roughly equivalent to?

To answer most of my questions:
> Is there a distinction regarding control gear, between Flourescent Tube
> Lamps (FLTs) and Compact Florescent Lamps (CFLs)?

Probably. :c) Actually, as one says difference in gear between these two
have to do with production volumes and reliability and special features.
Gear for CFLs are probably less reliable, and fewer feature, but cost
sayings due to production volumes. Maybe I dsuppose some some techical
deffrences between CFLs and FTLs, but maybe this is not the main reason for
the differences in commercial control gear. My guess.
> Is the 24W PL-L lamp in the link a CFL or FTL?

It's officially a CFL I'm sure. But basically also a FTL.
> What does PL-L stand for?

I think its basically Philips- Long

Like PL-C is Philips- Cluster
> If the 24W PL-L lamp in the link is a FTL what is it roughly equivalent
> to?

My guess is that although it may be classified as a CFL, it's roughly
equivalent to a 24W T5 640mm long. Could be run with regular FTL control
gear or CFL control gear. My guess.

In article <>,
"Richard" <> writes:
> To answer most of my questions:
>
>> Is there a distinction regarding control gear, between Flourescent Tube
>> Lamps (FLTs) and Compact Florescent Lamps (CFLs)?
>
> Probably. :c) Actually, as one says difference in gear between these two
> have to do with production volumes and reliability and special features.
> Gear for CFLs are probably less reliable, and fewer feature, but cost
> sayings due to production volumes. Maybe I dsuppose some some techical
> deffrences between CFLs and FTLs, but maybe this is not the main reason for
> the differences in commercial control gear. My guess.
>
>> Is the 24W PL-L lamp in the link a CFL or FTL?
>
> It's officially a CFL I'm sure. But basically also a FTL.

I don't think I've seen a clear definition of what a _compact_
fluorescent tube is (verses a non-compact fluorescent tube).
Originally, I suspect it implied small tubes with higher
surface luminous emittance of the tube than traditional tubes
had had, but subsequent increasing power ratings mean they
aren't necessarily small anymore.

So you might say it's a tube with a surface luminous emittance
above the values of old traditional tubes. As a consequence, it's
probably also tubes with a higher operating temperature than
the 40C of traditional tubes, and hence the more noticable
run-up time to get to the designed operating temperature
(often around 100C), mercury vapour pressure, and light output.
>> What does PL-L stand for?
>
> I think its basically Philips- Long
>
> Like PL-C is Philips- Cluster
>
>> If the 24W PL-L lamp in the link is a FTL what is it roughly equivalent
>> to?
>
> My guess is that although it may be classified as a CFL, it's roughly
> equivalent to a 24W T5 640mm long. Could be run with regular FTL control
> gear or CFL control gear. My guess.

It's almost certainly a CFL. The ballast sets the tube current.
The tube's design current is quite dependent on the tube diameter,
which is why I said if you are going to reuse control gear, aim for
something with the same tube diameter (and similar power rating).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article <>, Richard wrote:
>
>"Andrew Gabriel" <> wrote in message
>news:48729b2e$0$78075$...
>> In article <>,
>> "Richard" <> writes:
>>> I'm not an engineer.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to establish how compact the control gear can be for a certain
>>> flourescent lamp.
>>>
>>> If I buy a regular energy saving lamp (say a 11W CFL) to replace a
>>> regular
>>> incadescent lamp, the electronic control is built into the lamp and it's
>>> obviously very compact because it's in with the lamp itself. Also cheap
>>> to
>>> produce. A lamp like:
>>>
>>> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/2523/plet-economy-energy-saver-11w-es/
>>>
>>> Now lets say I want to replace my energy saving CFL lamp with a four foot
>>> regular tube flourescent. Right now I'm thinking that I have to buy an
>>> expensive, and quite large ballast to run that kind of lamp. I'm not
>>> certain
>>> though about that.
>>>
>>> The thing is I've been looking at some PL-L CFLs, like:
>>>
>>> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>>>
>>> I think this CFL is a single tube lamp. A simple tube flourescent bent
>>> back
>>> into itself. So, I think I have no option to buy an expensive and quite
>>> large conventional or electronic ballast for this lamp, because it's
>>> essentially a tube flourescent. Like:
>>>
>>> http://laukgroup.com/acatalog/Philips_HF-PERFORMER_II_PL-L_6370030.html
>>>
>>> But, I wish I could buy contol gear that was inexpensive and compact. Not
>>> unlike the control gear in the regular energy saving CFL you buy to
>>> replace
>>> your regular incadescent lamp.
>>>
>>> Is the control gear I'm wanting out there and I've not spotted it yet, or
>>> what?
>>
>> See: http://www.cucumber.demon.co.uk/lights/diy/
>> and: http://www.cucumber.demon.co.uk/lights/diy2/
>
>
>Lets imagine that I want to run the following CFL (I think it's a CFL):
>
>http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>
>I'm not sure, but I think this would be roughly equivalent to a T5 24W 640mm
>long tube flourescent.
>
>What you did was take the control gear from a 11W CFL, and used it to drive
>a 13W T5 tube.
>
>Are we saying then, that I can take the control gear from a 23W CFL, and use
>it to drive a 24W PL-L lamp like the one in the link?
>
>But if that were the case, why can you not buy this space-saving and
>economical control gear instead of the expensive control gear? Or can you?

A CFL and PL-L lamp may have different current requirements.

The CFL ballast probably has a lower life expectancy.

The CFL ballast may not survive end-of-life of the lamp or open circuit
operation.

"Don Klipstein" <> wrote in message
news:...
>>Lets imagine that I want to run the following CFL (I think it's a CFL):
>>
>>http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>>
>>I'm not sure, but I think this would be roughly equivalent to a T5 24W
>>640mm
>>long tube flourescent.
>>
>>What you did was take the control gear from a 11W CFL, and used it to
>>drive
>>a 13W T5 tube.
>>
>>Are we saying then, that I can take the control gear from a 23W CFL, and
>>use
>>it to drive a 24W PL-L lamp like the one in the link?
>>
>>But if that were the case, why can you not buy this space-saving and
>>economical control gear instead of the expensive control gear? Or can you?
>
> A CFL and PL-L lamp may have different current requirements.
>
> The CFL ballast probably has a lower life expectancy.
>
> The CFL ballast may not survive end-of-life of the lamp or open circuit
> operation.
>
> - Don Klipstein ()

PL-L means Philip Long.

PL-L is designated a CFL I believe.

You can have a CFL with integrated ballast or not.

Although the PL-L is a CFL, I think it's esssentailly just a FTL, really
just a linear tube flourescent bent back on itself.

PL-L with integrated ballast has a CFL ballast with the design limitations
you mention. Also inexpensice.

PL-L with an outboard balance will use a much more expensive ballast
incorporating more features.

That is not to say that you could not use a CFL ballast ouboard of the PL-L.
You can.

"Richard" <> wrote in message
news:...
>
> "Don Klipstein" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>
>>>Lets imagine that I want to run the following CFL (I think it's a CFL):
>>>
>>>http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>>>
>>>I'm not sure, but I think this would be roughly equivalent to a T5 24W
>>>640mm
>>>long tube flourescent.
>>>
>>>What you did was take the control gear from a 11W CFL, and used it to
>>>drive
>>>a 13W T5 tube.
>>>
>>>Are we saying then, that I can take the control gear from a 23W CFL, and
>>>use
>>>it to drive a 24W PL-L lamp like the one in the link?
>>>
>>>But if that were the case, why can you not buy this space-saving and
>>>economical control gear instead of the expensive control gear? Or can
>>>you?
>>
>> A CFL and PL-L lamp may have different current requirements.
>>
>> The CFL ballast probably has a lower life expectancy.
>>
>> The CFL ballast may not survive end-of-life of the lamp or open circuit
>> operation.
>>
>> - Don Klipstein ()
>
> PL-L means Philip Long.
>
> PL-L is designated a CFL I believe.
>
> You can have a CFL with integrated ballast or not.
>
> Although the PL-L is a CFL, I think it's esssentailly just a FTL, really
> just a linear tube flourescent bent back on itself.
>
> PL-L with integrated ballast has a CFL ballast with the design limitations
> you mention. Also inexpensice.
>
> PL-L with an outboard balance will use a much more expensive ballast
> incorporating more features.
>
> That is not to say that you could not use a CFL ballast ouboard of the
> PL-L. You can.
>
> That's what I think.

My problem of sorts, is that non of the Philips PL-L and all those similar
lamps like GE BIAX and OSRAM DULUXE L, to my knowlege, incorporate an
integrated ballast. So, one is forced to use a relatively expensive outboard
ballast, unless you can source inexpensive ones. Or alternively use an
inexpensive ballast circuit as found in many other CFL lamps. Which you make
yourself, reclaim from old CFLs or buy. Realising of course the limitations
in features.

"Victor Roberts" <> wrote in message
news:...
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:24:46 +0100, "Richard"
> <> wrote:
>
>>I'm not an engineer.
>>
>>I'm trying to establish how compact the control gear can be for a certain
>>flourescent lamp.
>>
>>If I buy a regular energy saving lamp (say a 11W CFL) to replace a regular
>>incadescent lamp, the electronic control is built into the lamp and it's
>>obviously very compact because it's in with the lamp itself. Also cheap to
>>produce. A lamp like:
>>
>>http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/2523/plet-economy-energy-saver-11w-es/
>>
>>Now lets say I want to replace my energy saving CFL lamp with a four foot
>>regular tube flourescent. Right now I'm thinking that I have to buy an
>>expensive, and quite large ballast to run that kind of lamp. I'm not
>>certain
>>though about that.
>>
>>The thing is I've been looking at some PL-L CFLs, like:
>>
>>http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>>
>>I think this CFL is a single tube lamp. A simple tube flourescent bent
>>back
>>into itself. So, I think I have no option to buy an expensive and quite
>>large conventional or electronic ballast for this lamp, because it's
>>essentially a tube flourescent. Like:
>>
>>http://laukgroup.com/acatalog/Philips_HF-PERFORMER_II_PL-L_6370030.html
>>
>>But, I wish I could buy contol gear that was inexpensive and compact. Not
>>unlike the control gear in the regular energy saving CFL you buy to
>>replace
>>your regular incadescent lamp.
>>
>>Is the control gear I'm wanting out there and I've not spotted it yet, or
>>what?
>>
>>Comments appreciated. Thanks.
>
> In addition to higher volume, integrated ballasts (control
> gear on your side of the pond) are less expensive than
> stand-alone ballasts because they have no protection against
> burning out when the lamp fails (it is not necessary in an
> integrated design), are generally designed for shorter life
> and generally have low power factor, while most stand-alone
> ballasts are high power factor.
>
> As has been stated by others, in order to use a ballast
> designed for one lamp on another you need to match not only
> the power rating but the current rating. There are some
> integrated, or screw-base. CFL's that use exactly the same
> "wire lamp" as the equivalent pin-base version. In these
> cases you can use the ballasts from the integrated CFL with
> the matching pin-base CFL. But you should be aware that the
> ballast WILL burn out when the lamp dies or even if the lamp
> is disconnected, so I think this is poor economy.
>
> --
> Vic Roberts

Actually, I feel I have discovered that there is technically no problem in
using integrated ballast type circuits with PL-L type lamps which don't have
integrated ballasts. I did not know that at first. I thought maybe you had
to use relatively expensive stand alone ballasts with the PL-L type. It was
not really my intention to re-use an integrated ballast taken from a dud
CFL. I'd buy one I think, or get a suitable circuit off the web. Of course,
othe deficiencies of integrated ballasts noted. So, as you say using
integrated ballast circuit on a PL-L type lamp could be a poor decision.

In article <>, Richard wrote:
>
>"Don Klipstein" <> wrote in message
>news:...
>
>>>Lets imagine that I want to run the following CFL (I think it's a CFL):
>>>
>>>http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1523/pl-l-low-energy-24w-827-extra-warm-white-2g11-4-pin/
>>>
>>>I'm not sure, but I think this would be roughly equivalent to a T5 24W
>>>640mm
>>>long tube flourescent.
>>>
>>>What you did was take the control gear from a 11W CFL, and used it to
>>>drive
>>>a 13W T5 tube.
>>>
>>>Are we saying then, that I can take the control gear from a 23W CFL, and
>>>use
>>>it to drive a 24W PL-L lamp like the one in the link?
>>>
>>>But if that were the case, why can you not buy this space-saving and
>>>economical control gear instead of the expensive control gear? Or can you?
>>
>> A CFL and PL-L lamp may have different current requirements.
>>
>> The CFL ballast probably has a lower life expectancy.
>>
>> The CFL ballast may not survive end-of-life of the lamp or open circuit
>> operation.
>>
>> - Don Klipstein ()
>
>PL-L means Philip Long.
>
>PL-L is designated a CFL I believe.
>
>You can have a CFL with integrated ballast or not.
>
>Although the PL-L is a CFL, I think it's esssentailly just a FTL, really
>just a linear tube flourescent bent back on itself.
>
>PL-L with integrated ballast has a CFL ballast with the design limitations
>you mention. Also inexpensice.

Should your CFL ballast actually be one made for an integral ballast
PL-L, then it should be OK in terms of output current. I was thinking
of a different form of CFL, since all 23 watt integral ballast CFLs that I
have seen had smaller diameter tubing than PL-L lamps.

The other design limitations remain.
>PL-L with an outboard balance will use a much more expensive ballast
>incorporating more features.
>
>That is not to say that you could not use a CFL ballast ouboard of the PL-L.
>You can.
>
>That's what I think.

In article <>,
Victor Roberts <> writes:
>
> As has been stated by others, in order to use a ballast
> designed for one lamp on another you need to match not only
> the power rating but the current rating. There are some
> integrated, or screw-base. CFL's that use exactly the same
> "wire lamp" as the equivalent pin-base version. In these
> cases you can use the ballasts from the integrated CFL with
> the matching pin-base CFL. But you should be aware that the
> ballast WILL burn out when the lamp dies or even if the lamp
> is disconnected, so I think this is poor economy.

I have to say, I've never yet found an integral ballast
which has been damaged by the tube failing, either the
original tube or subsequent refits. The control gear I
reused from Philips PL 9W lamps in the article on my
webpage have probably all had about 2 further lamp changes
since I did them (they're in a kitchen and used a lot of
the time). The only problem I had was electrolytic capacitor
failure, which was trivial to fix.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]