tlchwi02:arguments about what precisely to do about gun control aside, i can not in any world see how making schools armored fortresses with armed guards is in any way, shape or form a rational response to school shootings

If we do something about the guns themselves, or try anything that has to do with the guns themselves, it's destroying the Constitution and all of the hobbyists, doomsday preppers, and rednecks explode about Obama personally coming to take their guns and toss them into a portable smelter while ordering criminals and Muslims to ransack their homes and rape their children. So turning elementary schools into armed gulags is the most reasonable plan that doesn't impose on anyone's gun rights.

I'm on both sides of this issue, but we can all agree that SOMETHING needs to be done that ISN'T either taking all the guns away (which is NEVER going to happen, no matter how much people conspiracy theorize about it) or turning every home, business, and factory into a prison-fortress. I've posted a list I've made of things that can be done many times before that doesn't include either of those, but someone always shoots them all down because of money or time or because they think they're stupid, so apparently I'm the only one who stands in the middle ground.

iheartscotch:If you guys what sensible, intelligent, bi- paritizan reforms on guns; the president should issue a pledge to not take away guns from law-abiding citizens and have any democrat that wants append their name to the pledge.

/ he gave us a pledge? Unheard of! Absurd!

Yeah, that would work, totally. Like his pledge in 2008 to not accept additional funds for his Presidential campaign...which he wisely reneged on? Republicans and the NRA would NEVER bring that up....

It is a bit much the hand wringing over the error, but if ANYONE wants to be taken seriously, fact check and put together a good document. Otherwise, why are you there at all - to bamboozle the ignorant and present a false image? And the 20 armed guards for the presenter who wasn't frightened at all?

Quite simply, the NRA is a front group for folks that are frightened ALL THE TIME; I think a lot of folks who buy guns are simply frightened (wow - shocker) and for some it's a legitimate concern but for most others, it's a sign of stress and emotional fragility.

royone:Those bastards are trying to lie us into secure windows in our schools!

factoryconnection:Now, when I point that out, people in the target audience of the writer squeal because I'm stuck on "small details" and whatnot

What was I saying earlier? So no matter how wrong, mis-cited, or even fabricated their evidence is, they can use it to bolster the point that you already agreed with. To you, there is nothing that could shake their credibility.

trappedspirit:Mrtraveler01: It's easy to mistake "broke through a school window and killed 6 students" from "was subdued by school authorities before any shots broke out"

For Godsakes, the truth backs up the point they were trying to make and they still had to resort to lying?!?!

This. Could be a mistake. But here's the official link to the document. Page 48. Or search for 'Hastings'

http://www.nraschoolshield.com/NSS_Final_FULL.pdf

I don't see how it could be anything but a mistake. Unless the NRA is really the National Secure Window Association who will say anything to sell those overpriced windows that don't really make anyone safer and actually kill our kids.

Keizer_Ghidorah:tlchwi02: arguments about what precisely to do about gun control aside, i can not in any world see how making schools armored fortresses with armed guards is in any way, shape or form a rational response to school shootings

If we do something about the guns themselves, or try anything that has to do with the guns themselves, it's destroying the Constitution and all of the hobbyists, doomsday preppers, and rednecks explode about Obama personally coming to take their guns and toss them into a portable smelter while ordering criminals and Muslims to ransack their homes and rape their children. So turning elementary schools into armed gulags is the most reasonable plan that doesn't impose on anyone's gun rights.

I'm on both sides of this issue, but we can all agree that SOMETHING needs to be done that ISN'T either taking all the guns away (which is NEVER going to happen, no matter how much people conspiracy theorize about it) or turning every home, business, and factory into a prison-fortress. I've posted a list I've made of things that can be done many times before that doesn't include either of those, but someone always shoots them all down because of money or time or because they think they're stupid, so apparently I'm the only one who stands in the middle ground.

Honest question: why are we talking about the guns?

Seriously. Last time I heard there was going to be a look into mental health policy in this country so we could de-stigmatize and provide treatment and get people sane before they ever went off the deep end.

Now, it's back to assault weapons bans... again. We've had these laws before, and Columbine happened smack-dab in the middle of the Federal ban that was law from 1994-2004. We're sitting here like superstitious natives blaming inanimate objects.

Bravo Two:Antimatter: Further discussion on this topic is pointless: the guns rights folks won. The occasional violent robbery, massacre, rape or murder is just the price we are going to have to accept.

Guns cause rape and violent robbery? Wat?

They don't "cause" rape and robbery, but as Samuel Colt implied, they make them a hell of a lot easier. Also true of assault, terrorism, accidental homicide, suicide and intentional murder.

Do you disagree?

// and no, screwdrivers, crossbows and trebuchets do not have "the same" problems - non-projectile, and not as accurate/prevalent/concealable

Keizer_Ghidorah:I'm on both sides of this issue, but we can all agree that SOMETHING needs to be done that ISN'T either taking all the guns away (which is NEVER going to happen, no matter how much people conspiracy theorize about it) or turning every home, business, and factory into a prison-fortress. I've posted a list I've made of things that can be done many times before that doesn't include either of those, but someone always shoots them all down because of money or time or because they think they're stupid, so apparently I'm the only one who stands in the middle ground.

I'm not sure if I'm in the same group as you but I think bans are the wrong answer. We just need to beef up regulation on how these purchases are being made and be better able to track where these guns are going.

But of course suggesting that is the equivalent of repealing the 2nd Amendment even though I don't want to take guns away from any law-abiding citizen.

Dr Dreidel:Bravo Two: Antimatter: Further discussion on this topic is pointless: the guns rights folks won. The occasional violent robbery, massacre, rape or murder is just the price we are going to have to accept.

Guns cause rape and violent robbery? Wat?

They don't "cause" rape and robbery, but as Samuel Colt implied, they make them a hell of a lot easier. Also true of assault, terrorism, accidental homicide, suicide and intentional murder.

Do you disagree?

// and no, screwdrivers, crossbows and trebuchets do not have "the same" problems - non-projectile, and not as accurate/prevalent/concealable

They also make defending yourself against those things easier. Meaning it's a wash and we should move on to looking at human psychology as a way to solve these problems.

Mrtraveler01:maxx2112: FTFA: For example, in 2010 a 16-year-old attacker killed six people hiding in a locked classroom in Hastings Middle School in Minnesota by shooting and subsequently stepping through a tempered glass window that ran vertically alongside the classroom door. Horrifying-except it never happened.

And later in TFA: It's possible that the episode in question may have been a mix-up; its footnote cites a news story covering both the incident at Hastings Middle School and the massacre at Red Lake Senior High School five years prior, in which a teen assailant killed seven and injured five before committing suicide. But whatever the case, the bad info shows that the NRA is unreliable when it comes to assessing mass gun violence.

It never happened, except that it did happen, just somewhere else, and with more dead and injured. By conflating two actual events, the NRA is engaging in fear and fantasy, the 2nd amendment is automatically expunged, and everyone at the NRA has to send an apology letter to James Brady.

I guess it would be nice if the NRA did its own homework before they made this report.

But I guess that's just me.

You're absolutely right. This is the kind of error that should have been caught in proof reading and fact checking. However, it's not the overt act of lying and fabrication of facts that some in this thread are making it out to be.

Wrong, yes. Deceitful, probably not.

/ one supposes, then, that technically incorrect is the worst kind of incorrect

HotWingConspiracy:iheartscotch: If you guys what sensible, intelligent, bi- paritizan reforms on guns; the president should issue a pledge to not take away guns from law-abiding citizens

Yeah that will do it.

The AGENDA 21 crowd just needs assurances from the government.

Those guys? Yeahhhh.

I'm saying an actual, plainly written pledge. If the president signs it; along with a majority of democrats; it would go a long way toward allaying the fears of law-abiding citizens. It wouldn't cost the president anything to do.

I am surprised that with faking it this much, they didn't go into the other direction of "A brown kid with a gun shot at students in the classroom, the white students took out their guns that they're parents bought for their protection and returned fire killing the rampaging student with no loss of life or serious injuries to the innocent gun owners. More guns for the classroom!"

All civilian-owned firearms (registered and unregistered) vanish overnight, along with the capabilities to manufacture or import more from other sources.

What does the remainder of the year look like...

- Dramatic decrease in the number of homicides (homicides involving other weapons increase slightly)- Decrease in the number of robberies and assaults- Increase in the number of crime victims fighting their attackers- Small percentage of the population forced to buy meat- Small percentage of the population forced to find other hobbies (e.g. archery)- Gun dealers, manufacturers and factory works forced to seek new employment- Gun nuts forced to fixate on cars, watches, knives and other "macho" artifacts

Oh yeah...

- U.S. government uses its military to enslave its citizens as socialist workers, ensuring the demise of the U.S. economy at a time when most communist and socialist countries are beginning to embrace some form of capitalism (ha ha)

Again, just a thought experiment to consider what guns do for us.

I ultimately believe people should have the right to own guns, and think most proposed gun-control legislation is window dressing. But I also think the U.S. has some serious issues, and multiple murders are a symptom, not the problem.

A symptom of what, exactly?

Good question. I think there are a number of things causing problems:

- Innadequate access to preventative health care, especially for mental health disorders- Public agencies that refuse to listen to greivances from citizens (ever try arguing with a Parking Enforcement officer?)- Deteriorating public education system- Minimum wages not matching minimal living wages- Shrinking public services- Increased access to paranoid theories thanks to the Interwebs

I don't really have it in me to make a complete list, and I'm not particularly good at this sort of thing anyway, but the fact remains that we see increases and decreases in volient crime and should be able to correlate those with policy and social norms that are in effect during those times. (e.g. the drop in violent crime ~16 years following Roe v. Wade)

I don't think it helps that guns are seen as a way to empower their owner. As much as I love a good third-person shooter and slick, Hollywood, action flick, I do think that we've glamorized guns, and told generation after generation of people that holding a gun gives you power and righteousness.

Combine that with a society in which individuals feel less and less empowered and you have people going on killing sprees, and people carrying guns to demand respect, etc.

So Mother Jones got it dead on and the NRA very clearly lied. And all that only takes an intelligent adult maybe 2-3 minutes to confirm independently. But hey, if everyone were an intelligent adult, I guess there'd be no room left for bleating conservative shills, would there?

maxx2112:It never happened, except that it did happen, just somewhere else, and with more dead and injured. By conflating two actual events, the NRA is engaging in fear and fantasy, the 2nd amendment is automatically expunged, and everyone at the NRA has to send an apology letter to James Brady.

Well, that's pretty stupid. As long as some vaguely similar event happened somewhere at some time, you can use it to prove your argument? Just wait til the MPAA finds out that they can claim that illegal copying of "Wreck It Ralph" led the the murder of millions of Jews.

Dr Dreidel:Bravo Two: Antimatter: Further discussion on this topic is pointless: the guns rights folks won. The occasional violent robbery, massacre, rape or murder is just the price we are going to have to accept.

Guns cause rape and violent robbery? Wat?

They don't "cause" rape and robbery, but as Samuel Colt implied, they make them a hell of a lot easier. Also true of assault, terrorism, accidental homicide, suicide and intentional murder.

Do you disagree?

// and no, screwdrivers, crossbows and trebuchets do not have "the same" problems - non-projectile, and not as accurate/prevalent/concealable

Except that any plan to ban them would be as successful as Prohibition, cause even more deaths, and further destroy civil liberties in a vain attempt to enforce it.

Do you disagree?

I'm not sure you honest you fit in here...meaning this country. Clearly you know nothing of its people.

Oh, sorry. I thought you said "gun control" advocates and were referring to the shrill cries of blood in the streets from these deadly assault weapons when the FBI tells use their illegal use is at an all time low.

Deucednuisance:royone: For those who want to read the NRA report for yourselves, it's here:http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/670907-133630146-nra-s-nation al -school-shield-report.html#document/p1/a97899

The example cited is on page number 48 (69 of the document, but the page number at the bottom of the page is 48). It is used to bolster the argument that windows should be secured.

Those bastards are trying to lie us into secure windows in our schools!

So, as long as I can bisect an angle, it's OK if one of the Givens of my geometry is that "the shortest distance between two points is *not* a straight line"?

How you get to your conclusion is an important part of an argument.

I think we can concede that a locking door is not particularly effective if a window is installed right next to it. People are really fixating on a minor point that is really not that controversial. The NRA should still feel stupid for not checking their facts, though.

factoryconnection:Credibility is flexible when you're addressing an echo chamber. I am always thrown when someone, columnists often, begins an address with a big, whopper of a lie or warping of the truth, because if they follow it up with what I had previously thought to be true, I then start questioning what I thought about it. As in, these assholes ruin otherwise perfectly-good facts by using them to support a fallacious claim.

Now, when I point that out, people in the target audience of the writer squeal because I'm stuck on "small details" and whatnot. It is somewhat scary at times... and no, I don't just see this among republicans. I do see it a lot among republicans, though.

There're none who need convincing in the echo chamber, consider the possibility that you may be the the target.

For example, in 2010 a 16-year-old attacker killed six people hiding in a locked classroom in Hastings Middle School in Minnesota by shooting and subsequently stepping through a tempered glass window that ran vertically alongside the classroom door.

All civilian-owned firearms (registered and unregistered) vanish overnight, along with the capabilities to manufacture or import more from other sources.

What does the remainder of the year look like...

- Dramatic decrease in the number of homicides (homicides involving other weapons increase slightly)- Decrease in the number of robberies and assaults- Increase in the number of crime victims fighting their attackers- Small percentage of the population forced to buy meat- Small percentage of the population forced to find other hobbies (e.g. archery)- Gun dealers, manufacturers and factory works forced to seek new employment- Gun nuts forced to fixate on cars, watches, knives and other "macho" artifacts

Oh yeah...

- U.S. government uses its military to enslave its citizens as socialist workers, ensuring the demise of the U.S. economy at a time when most communist and socialist countries are beginning to embrace some form of capitalism (ha ha)

Again, just a thought experiment to consider what guns do for us.

I ultimately believe people should have the right to own guns, and think most proposed gun-control legislation is window dressing. But I also think the U.S. has some serious issues, and multiple murders are a symptom, not the problem.

A symptom of what, exactly?

Having guns, I guess. That part didn't really make sense and the first sentence of that paragraph read as "I'm not racist and I'm all for minorities, BUT..."

Bill the unknowing:iheartscotch: If you guys what sensible, intelligent, bi- paritizan reforms on guns; the president should issue a pledge to not take away guns from law-abiding citizens and have any democrat that wants append their name to the pledge.

/ he gave us a pledge? Unheard of! Absurd!

Yeah, that would work, totally. Like his pledge in 2008 to not accept additional funds for his Presidential campaign...which he wisely reneged on? Republicans and the NRA would NEVER bring that up....

It is a bit much the hand wringing over the error, but if ANYONE wants to be taken seriously, fact check and put together a good document. Otherwise, why are you there at all - to bamboozle the ignorant and present a false image? And the 20 armed guards for the presenter who wasn't frightened at all?

Quite simply, the NRA is a front group for folks that are frightened ALL THE TIME; I think a lot of folks who buy guns are simply frightened (wow - shocker) and for some it's a legitimate concern but for most others, it's a sign of stress and emotional fragility.

You've got an aweful big brush there; it'd be a shame if you painted something you didn't mean to paint.

The NRA probably would be satisfied with a constitutional amendment stating that the right for a law-abiding citizen to own a firearm shall not be infringed, nor their right to 30 round mags and semi-automatic rifles. This amendment can never be altered, changed, voided, nullified or made moot in any manner.

/ that will never happen; I'd settle for a plainly worded pledge, signed by the president and as many democrats that wish to sign

LordJiro:But making it harder for criminals and psychopaths to buy guns (or making it easier to trace the guns they do get ahold of), if it means slightly inconveniencing hobbyists? THAT'S ANTI AMERICAN YOU COMMIE.

Problem being at not all shooters are hobbyists. Its estimated that up to sixty percent of those who own guns do so because they felt a need for the extra protection.Crooks have got the means to get guns either from theft or straw purchase or import. They are armed and they will continue to be armed. Making these laws more one sided than a UN treaty.

What you do is limit everyone based on the promise of security, and what they see on television is a dozen instances per day where that promise fell through.

Its no mystery why the population goes on a buying binge every time the left starts talking about "reasonable restrictions". What you think isn't a very big deal is an extremely big deal.

Seriously. Last time I heard there was going to be a look into mental health policy in this country so we could de-stigmatize and provide treatment and get people sane before they ever went off the deep end.

Now, it's back to assault weapons bans... again. We've had these laws before, and Columbine happened smack-dab in the middle of the Federal ban that was law from 1994-2004. We're sitting here like superstitious natives blaming inanimate objects.

Good point. This is why I am actually against the AWB. I really think it would probably be a good idea to tightly control those types of weapons, but I am afraid that the politician would pass a ban and call it a day. Why? Because that is the easiest way to look like they are doing something about gun violence. Trying to address the cause of gun violence is a much more difficult plan. It doesn't help that there are a lot of people who fight against even studying the problem.

Mrtraveler01:Keizer_Ghidorah: I'm on both sides of this issue, but we can all agree that SOMETHING needs to be done that ISN'T either taking all the guns away (which is NEVER going to happen, no matter how much people conspiracy theorize about it) or turning every home, business, and factory into a prison-fortress. I've posted a list I've made of things that can be done many times before that doesn't include either of those, but someone always shoots them all down because of money or time or because they think they're stupid, so apparently I'm the only one who stands in the middle ground.

I'm not sure if I'm in the same group as you but I think bans are the wrong answer. We just need to beef up regulation on how these purchases are being made and be better able to track where these guns are going.

But of course suggesting that is the equivalent of repealing the 2nd Amendment even though I don't want to take guns away from any law-abiding citizen.

I'll put up the list I thought up, let's see if I can remember all of them.

* A drastic reshaping of our prison system so it actually rehabilitates and helps criminals return to society instead of being a for-profit system that works by imprisoning as many people as possible.* A drastic reshaping of the War on Drugs policy, or just ending it altogether.* Fix everything Reagan broke with the mental health care system.* Tackle the root factors of crime like poverty.* Do a better job of keeping an eye on known offenders who are free.* Do a better job curtailing gangs and other groups, along with more and better youth programs to keep them out of gangs.* Better tracking of all firearms' sales and ownership.* Develop technology that prevents a gun from being used by anyone but its registered owner, like a fingerprint scanner.

lostcat:Good question. I think there are a number of things causing problems:

- Innadequate access to preventative health care, especially for mental health disorders- Public agencies that refuse to listen to greivances from citizens (ever try arguing with a Parking Enforcement officer?)- Deteriorating public education system- Minimum wages not matching minimal living wages- Shrinking public services- Increased access to paranoid theories thanks to the Interwebs

You've identified many problems that can cause violence amongst Americans. Great! So you either want to raise taxes or take funding from some other program(s) to fund Medicare, Medicaid, Department of Education, and a federal increase in minimum wage. You sir must be a democrat! Me too, and it sounds like a good plan. I am certainly willing to try that approach instead of restricting guns. After all, in order to solve this problem, we're going to all have to chip in somewhere. Hey republican party members out there? Which ones of you are with us?

hdhale:Dr Dreidel: Bravo Two: Antimatter: Further discussion on this topic is pointless: the guns rights folks won. The occasional violent robbery, massacre, rape or murder is just the price we are going to have to accept.

Guns cause rape and violent robbery? Wat?

They don't "cause" rape and robbery, but as Samuel Colt implied, they make them a hell of a lot easier. Also true of assault, terrorism, accidental homicide, suicide and intentional murder.

Do you disagree?

// and no, screwdrivers, crossbows and trebuchets do not have "the same" problems - non-projectile, and not as accurate/prevalent/concealable

Except that any plan to ban them would be as successful as Prohibition, cause even more deaths, and further destroy civil liberties in a vain attempt to enforce it.

Do you disagree?

I'm not sure you honest you fit in here...meaning this country. Clearly you know nothing of its people.

Wow, thanks for that, assbrain.

As successful as Prohibition? Eh, maybe, but the human desire to get farked up outweighs the desire to shoot people. People can and would still fight - with fists, sticks, hair dryers, XBoxes, and whatever else is handy - but I don't think that drying up the supply (of illegally-obtained/illegally-sourced weapons, you see, not "all weapons") will cause widespread flouting of the law. Or maybe we will - plenty of derpers ignore laws we currently have on the books, so I'd say that it is CURRENTLY working as well as Prohibition (in that sense).

"Cause even more deaths"? Proceed, Ms Bachmann. As I've said here before, we did away with "an eye for an eye" because it left everyone blind, yet you think a gun for a gun won't leave everyone shot (or shot at)?

"Further destroy civil liberties"? If you assume that it is an inviolable civil right that everyone - the mentally ill, felons, everyone - may own a gun, then yes. Making sure that every gun sold is sold to someone legally allowed to own it is curtailing the civil liberties of...who, exactly? Adding a $10-15 cost to the hundreds of dollars it already takes to purchase one (less than sales tax in most states) - in exchange for a service (the BG check) - curtails the civil liberties of...who, exactly?

It's odd that the 2nd is somehow the only Amendment that doesn't get anything stacked on top of it, yet I can't publicly protest the jackals at DC Parking Enforcement without pulling a permit.

All civilian-owned firearms (registered and unregistered) vanish overnight, along with the capabilities to manufacture or import more from other sources.

What does the remainder of the year look like...

- Dramatic decrease in the number of homicides (homicides involving other weapons increase slightly)- Decrease in the number of robberies and assaults- Increase in the number of crime victims fighting their attackers- Small percentage of the population forced to buy meat- Small percentage of the population forced to find other hobbies (e.g. archery)- Gun dealers, manufacturers and factory works forced to seek new employment- Gun nuts forced to fixate on cars, watches, knives and other "macho" artifacts

Oh yeah...

- U.S. government uses its military to enslave its citizens as socialist workers, ensuring the demise of the U.S. economy at a time when most communist and socialist countries are beginning to embrace some form of capitalism (ha ha)

Again, just a thought experiment to consider what guns do for us.

I ultimately believe people should have the right to own guns, and think most proposed gun-control legislation is window dressing. But I also think the U.S. has some serious issues, and multiple murders are a symptom, not the problem.

A symptom of what, exactly?

Having guns, I guess. That part didn't really make sense and the first sentence of that paragraph read as "I'm not racist and I'm all for minorities, BUT..."

Let me break it down for you:

Over decades, erode the power of individuals in a society. What used to be the "American Dream" that each of us could become successful if we work hard enough, has been debunked in a time where 47% of the population lives near or below the poverty line.

Train public servants to ignore and show disdain for the people they supposedly serve by creating a system of "not my problem."

Neglect public schools. Neglect those with mental health issues. Pay only lip service to the idea of "preventative healthcare"

Basically allow people to feel unsupported, incosequential and unempowered.

At the same time, let those people consume massive quantities of media in which the empowered, independent, strong and admirable hero gets results at the end of his trusty firearm.

It's a recipe for exactly the situation we are in now.

Not saying it's a conspiracy on anyone's part, or that things are this way intentionally. But it's a guess as to why we keep reading about peope shooting people in arguements, muggings, and occassionally in multiple-homicides where the killers do not know their victims,

jfivealive:lostcat: Good question. I think there are a number of things causing problems:

- Innadequate access to preventative health care, especially for mental health disorders- Public agencies that refuse to listen to greivances from citizens (ever try arguing with a Parking Enforcement officer?)- Deteriorating public education system- Minimum wages not matching minimal living wages- Shrinking public services- Increased access to paranoid theories thanks to the Interwebs

You've identified many problems that can cause violence amongst Americans. Great! So you either want to raise taxes or take funding from some other program(s) to fund Medicare, Medicaid, Department of Education, and a federal increase in minimum wage. You sir must be a democrat! Me too, and it sounds like a good plan. I am certainly willing to try that approach instead of restricting guns. After all, in order to solve this problem, we're going to all have to chip in somewhere. Hey republican party members out there? Which ones of you are with us?

You also have to remember that such efforts are not going to produce measurable results within one election cycle. Politicians act along the same lines as corporate officers. They only want to spend money on things that will return an investment before the next time they are evaluated. We have become such a short-sighted society that I am starting to doubt our ability to do anything big anymore.

Giltric:Maybe a staffer will come out and tell us what they really meant like with Evie Hudak who told a woman she would be raped anyway and Diane Degette who told an elderly person they would die anyway or that high cap mags come pre packed with bullets and once fired are no longer usable.

Marine1:You know, I was hoping we'd get some real mental health reforms out of this whole national conversation... but we're talking about guns again. Blaming inanimate objects like superstitious natives. Using terms like "armor-piercing rounds" and "high-capacity clips" without any idea or quantifiable measure of what those things are.

So basically, we're back to where we were in 1999, when we had assault weapons bans in several places (well, the whole nation), which ultimately did nothing to stop the guys at Columbine.

I agree with this completely. If you want to stop these "mass shootings" the common denominator is that they people doing the shooting had mental health issues. The gun was just the tool they chose to carry out their attack. Sure, if they didn't have guns it would have been harder to kills as many people so quickly, but the problem is their mental state, not the gun.

The idea that the US Military would enslave us in some socialist dystopia were it not for a bunch of hillbillies with semi automatic rifles is the biggest fantasy you will ever tell yourself. Your Red Dawn wet dreams aside, there is already a massive training and equipment gap between a genuine military unit and the good ole' boys 363rd that meets as Scullie's bar to talk about the good old days when they played jr. varsity football. If that was really the goal of the government, you've already lost.

Damn, now we don't have the right to bear arms any more. Maybe one day one of the asshole groups that fights against the 2nd amendment will slip up and say something that is factually incorrect so that we can have our 2nd amendment rights again..

GameSprocket:jfivealive: lostcat: Good question. I think there are a number of things causing problems:

- Innadequate access to preventative health care, especially for mental health disorders- Public agencies that refuse to listen to greivances from citizens (ever try arguing with a Parking Enforcement officer?)- Deteriorating public education system- Minimum wages not matching minimal living wages- Shrinking public services- Increased access to paranoid theories thanks to the Interwebs

You've identified many problems that can cause violence amongst Americans. Great! So you either want to raise taxes or take funding from some other program(s) to fund Medicare, Medicaid, Department of Education, and a federal increase in minimum wage. You sir must be a democrat! Me too, and it sounds like a good plan. I am certainly willing to try that approach instead of restricting guns. After all, in order to solve this problem, we're going to all have to chip in somewhere. Hey republican party members out there? Which ones of you are with us?

You also have to remember that such efforts are not going to produce measurable results within one election cycle. Politicians act along the same lines as corporate officers. They only want to spend money on things that will return an investment before the next time they are evaluated. We have become such a short-sighted society that I am starting to doubt our ability to do anything big anymore.

It's almost as if we need to work together instead of against each other. Who'd of thunk?

jfivealive:GameSprocket: jfivealive: lostcat: Good question. I think there are a number of things causing problems:

- Innadequate access to preventative health care, especially for mental health disorders- Public agencies that refuse to listen to greivances from citizens (ever try arguing with a Parking Enforcement officer?)- Deteriorating public education system- Minimum wages not matching minimal living wages- Shrinking public services- Increased access to paranoid theories thanks to the Interwebs

You've identified many problems that can cause violence amongst Americans. Great! So you either want to raise taxes or take funding from some other program(s) to fund Medicare, Medicaid, Department of Education, and a federal increase in minimum wage. You sir must be a democrat! Me too, and it sounds like a good plan. I am certainly willing to try that approach instead of restricting guns. After all, in order to solve this problem, we're going to all have to chip in somewhere. Hey republican party members out there? Which ones of you are with us?

You also have to remember that such efforts are not going to produce measurable results within one election cycle. Politicians act along the same lines as corporate officers. They only want to spend money on things that will return an investment before the next time they are evaluated. We have become such a short-sighted society that I am starting to doubt our ability to do anything big anymore.

It's almost as if we need to work together instead of against each other. Who'd of thunk?

fuhfuhfuh:Giltric: neversubmit: fuhfuhfuh: Both sides of the current gun debate seem to enjoy resorting to appeals to emotion, slippery slopes and outright fabrications to try to defend their positions. Doesn't make either side right, or make either side look like they are anything but knee-jerk reactionaries.

Which side has a body count?

The side with all the gun free zones that people keep getting murdered in because they are not allowed to defend themselves with equal force.

Thank you both for proving my point so well.

I know, it's wierd....after months of providing facts and sources related to firearms ownership, rights and violence and the gun control crowd sticking their fingers in their ears going LA LA LA LA LA the whole time people only start taking it seriously when I have some fun.

It's like people have a predetermined viewpoint and will only accept things that doesn't upset that viewpoint.

Mrtraveler01:It's easy to mistake "broke through a school window and killed 6 students" from "was subdued by school authorities before any shots broke out"

For Godsakes, the truth backs up the point they were trying to make and they still had to resort to lying?!?!

The report recommends removing vulnerable windows from classrooms, then as an example of what vulnerable means, cites a window being shot thru, so in other words pretty much all the windows in any school. Now I know school admins, and local school boards can be dumb, but I doubt even they would do something as dumb as brick up all the windows of a school and replace all the doors with solid steel monstrosities that look like they belong in a prison.

So what does that leave if a school wants to comply with NRA recommendations? Ballistic glass, gee I wonder if any of the people who make ballistic give money to the NRA and provide input on NRA "safety" reports.

Deucednuisance:royone: For those who want to read the NRA report for yourselves, it's here:http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/670907-133630146-nra-s-nation al -school-shield-report.html#document/p1/a97899

The example cited is on page number 48 (69 of the document, but the page number at the bottom of the page is 48). It is used to bolster the argument that windows should be secured.

Those bastards are trying to lie us into secure windows in our schools!

So, as long as I can bisect an angle, it's OK if one of the Givens of my geometry is that "the shortest distance between two points is *not* a straight line"?

How you get to your conclusion is an important part of an argument.

It seems their point was that someone gained access by using a window. I don't think that what appears to be sloppy fact reporting equates to operating on false assumptions. An armed individual did gain access to an otherwise secured area via a broken window.