A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all! Even if they're a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture, still, treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing, and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes, because each has been sent as a guide from beyond. Arch (archmage.atlantis): Cafe for the Ways of Knowing session -- We'll be discussing "Radical Acceptance' today. Arch (archmage.atlantis): Are we doing that yet....seems a long wait Zen (zen.arado): because it really is radical Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Is Rumi advising "Radical Acceptance," though? Zon Kwan: hm not passive to me Zen (zen.arado): so radical I don't thnk many actually do it Zon Kwan: it means to face things Zen (zen.arado): or allow things? Zon Kwan: thats qit active Zon Kwan: no Zon Kwan: accept the moment Arch (archmage.atlantis): I have to comment Zon & Zen Bruce (bruce.mowbray): letting go of all resistance to reality? Arch (archmage.atlantis): My Dad told me to always be honest Zon Kwan: nods Zon Kwan: dont fight with reality but change it if you can Arch (archmage.atlantis): The only reality I could find to honesty was accuracy Zen (zen.arado): ah ..change it Zon Kwan: respond Zon Kwan: thats active Arch (archmage.atlantis): Accuracy places a person who does not fit... that person is in constant conflict Arch (archmage.atlantis): A madness descends Zen (zen.arado): people who do not fit often get things changed though Zen (zen.arado): others rest in complacency Arch (archmage.atlantis): Yes, I agree....change it.....but change creates a new reality....and all the old problems still exist Bruce (bruce.mowbray): so some withdraw -- in monasticism, hermitry, anarchy, . . . Zen (zen.arado): that radical acceptance article Calvino Rabeni: Any successful change involves the creative appearance of new problems :) Arch (archmage.atlantis): There have been few transformational changes in the 60,000 years of homo sapiens time here Zen (zen.arado): the guy goes on a retreat where you just sit and do nothing for three weeks Bruce (bruce.mowbray): For me, the question is whether "avoidance" is even possible -- since these "guests" are really within ME -- not just the general society. Zon Kwan: i think it means accept reality in the moment that faces you...welcome it... dont escape..dont avoid..then respond Bruce (bruce.mowbray): good point, Zen. Being present with whatever is rising in the moment. Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Zon, I meant, sry. Calvino Rabeni: Change is not problem solving, it is just living. Zon Kwan: nods Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bruce listens. Arisia Vita: In times of change learners inherit the earth; while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists. - Eric Hoffer Zen (zen.arado): could any of us sit and do nothing? Zen (zen.arado): it's very difficult Bruce (bruce.mowbray): not I, Zen. Zon Kwan: doing happems all the time Arch (archmage.atlantis): Do any still know Muad'Dib. Zon Kwan: the point is who is doing Bruce (bruce.mowbray): nope -- say more, Arch. Zen (zen.arado): it's like we are forced to keep doing Calvino Rabeni: I think I agree Zon Calvino Rabeni: not doing is not an option Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Why must "doing" and "being" be opponents? Zon Kwan: they are not Calvino Rabeni: but luckily the world can't be "fixed" or "improved" so we don't have to worry about it (in a fundamental sense) Zon Kwan: breathing takes place when you sit Zon Kwan: circulation Zon Kwan: thoughts arise Bruce (bruce.mowbray): if I am starving and homeless, and then find some way of finding food and shelter, then my "world" has improved -- through doing. Arch (archmage.atlantis): Breathing........yes, I experienced the cessation of that last nite, along with rigor mortis Zen (zen.arado): our 'doing' is pretty insignificant in the long run Zen (zen.arado): except to make us feel important? Arch (archmage.atlantis): I am saying this planet is dying, and I wish it to live. Zen (zen.arado): Hi Violet :) Zon Kwan: us ? Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Cal qualified "doing" by saying that it changed nothing "fundamentally." Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zen, everyone :) Santoshima: hi violet Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Atari. Arch (archmage.atlantis): There is a place where one steps into the abyss Zon Kwan: we are not doing anything, doing takes place through us Arch (archmage.atlantis): Because to do otherwise, is to be dishones Calvino Rabeni: Do you therefore have a responsibility Archmage (about the planet, etc.) ? Arch (archmage.atlantis): Yes, Cal, I do Zon Kwan: flies away...waves Calvino Rabeni: I think it's ok to say "doing takes place through me, and BY me" Coffee Mug: whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee Zen (zen.arado): Hi Hypno Zen (zen.arado): have a seat Hypnofan Wingtips: hi zen Dari (daryl.taov): hi there :) Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Hypnofan Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Hypno. Dari (daryl.taov): Dari wonders if sitting here doing nothing is really doing nothing Zen (zen.arado): we are talking about Radical Acceptance and non -doing Arch (archmage.atlantis): It blinks in and out Hypnofan Wingtips: ok.. Hypnofan Wingtips: thank you ..i will listen Dari (daryl.taov): Dari wonders if writing about doing nothing while doing nothing yet typing is doing nothing Calvino Rabeni: The active life in accord with Tao is called non-doing Zen (zen.arado): do we have any choice about it? Arch (archmage.atlantis): At times I see the responsibility.....at times I see only what is in front of me Dari (daryl.taov): Dari wonders if all virtuality is radical acceptance personnified Zen (zen.arado): Zen wonders about that Calvino Rabeni: Maybe the opposite, with virtuality? Calvino Rabeni: Virtuality means what? Calvino Rabeni: "could be, if I wish it" Calvino Rabeni: a possibility, looking to be embodied by some force outside itself Santoshima: yes, most likely, disembodies and not of much use, unless it can be harnessed to benefit in RL Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think we're always "doing" in a sense....but we can let go of a need to "do" Arch (archmage.atlantis): Another was kind enought to invite me here Santoshima: disembodied* Zen (zen.arado): so we don't have any choice about what to allow in Rumi's poem? Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Rumi suggest that we allow ALL of it. Zen (zen.arado): but can we Violet? Arch (archmage.atlantis): I feel that storm clouds are gathering Arch (archmage.atlantis): And it is not time for the clouds to storm Santoshima: arch, poetically speaking, or actually? Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Welcome and entertain them all! Even if they're a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture, still, treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight. Arch (archmage.atlantis): I apologize, but I must take my leave Zen (zen.arado): I am being a bit inquisitorial Bruce (bruce.mowbray): bye, Arch. Santoshima: alas, bye arch Zen (zen.arado): hope it isn't offending you Arch? Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, not just "allow" but actively welcome and "entertain" them ! :) Zen (zen.arado): this allowing seems right to me actually but I think it isn't so easy in practice Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey oO0Oo. Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think the acceptance in the Rumi poem doesn't necessarily advocate non-action as much as....celebration of everything (like lots of Rumi poems!) Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Sam :) Calvino Rabeni: The "guest house" metaphor says... one is the HOST of the house, and is there to give all those visitors a good time and care for them Zen (zen.arado): Hi Sam Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð waves and sits quietly Calvino Rabeni: That is so Active compared with acceptance or allowance as a concept Dari (daryl.taov): hey sam :) Zen (zen.arado): Zen wants to sit quietly too Zen (zen.arado): (but find it difficult) Calvino Rabeni: :) Zen is being naughty ? Zen (zen.arado): :) Samúð (oo0oo): Hard to do nothing Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like that, Cal Zen (zen.arado): we love our distractions so much Zen (zen.arado): or I do anyway Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes Calvino Rabeni: I like that the guest house poem suggests, embracing them and serving them a drink, introducing them to the other guests Zen (zen.arado): yes active acceptance Zen (zen.arado): welcoming sorrows Zen (zen.arado): welcoming death? Bruce (bruce.mowbray): No resistance. Zen (zen.arado): so it's not non doing so much as nin resisting the inevitable? Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I see the poem as quite active -- not passive. Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think so....or even celebrating the invetible as parts of the whole Bruce (bruce.mowbray): i have a little trouble with "because each has been sent as a guide from beyond." Bruce (bruce.mowbray): unless "beyond" means "within." Zen (zen.arado): sometimes I feel that Santoshima: active engagement with the mystery Zen (zen.arado): does anyone else? Dari (daryl.taov): maybe writing this poem is a proof that rumi was too active to let go himself ? Zen (zen.arado): as if tests have been arranged for me Dari (daryl.taov): someone telling me to shut up is still not shutting up himself Bruce (bruce.mowbray): some cosmic design, Zen? Hypnofan Wingtips: sorry must go.. Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, I have felt that myself. Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hey! Good point, Dari....a lot of Rumi's poems celebrate weaknesses, too Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Hypno. Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Ne :) Zen (zen.arado): bye Hypno Dari (daryl.taov): do as i say, not as i do Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Be. Calvino Rabeni: The poem suggests being active with what is, rather than controlled by likes and dislikes? Dari (daryl.taov): so, weakness is the fact that no human can really let go Calvino Rabeni: A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!

Be grateful for whoever comes, because each has been sent as a guide from beyond. Be (be.ewing): All - Hi :) Zen (zen.arado): Hi Be Dari (daryl.taov): we need instances of separation to get into that state, like zazen Dari (daryl.taov): but even zazen is organized Calvino Rabeni: It ends up in the marketplace eventually Dari (daryl.taov): so by not doing anything in zazen, we re stil doing zazen Santoshima: namaste Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Santo. Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_ Be (be.ewing): Santo - take care Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Santoshima :) Zen (zen.arado): that's why non dualists don't lie zazen so much Dari (daryl.taov): bye santo Samúð (oo0oo): personal instances may indeed get between the lines Zen (zen.arado): it can be seen as a way to get somewhere Samúð (oo0oo): Bye santo Zen (zen.arado): bye Santo Calvino Rabeni: isn't zen a boat to get out of once the stream is crossed? Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I like the image, Cal. Zen (zen.arado): that's more Buddhist Bruce (bruce.mowbray): But also, Zazen for Zazen's sake. . . "just sitting." Dari (daryl.taov): in zen there is no boat Zen (zen.arado): Zen would stress non attaing more Zen (zen.arado): yes Zen (zen.arado): just sit Zen (zen.arado): nowhere to go Dari (daryl.taov): siting doing nothing is still sitting, right ? Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I remember when i first realized that the place to understand a koan is INSIDE it. Dari (daryl.taov): even though we could do zazen upright Zen (zen.arado): I don't know Zen (zen.arado): we are not stones Zen (zen.arado): we are always doing something Zen (zen.arado): we can't stop thinking Samúð (oo0oo): polishing our stoneness Zen (zen.arado): yep :) Dari (daryl.taov): :) Be (be.ewing): I do on occasion -- it is really a nice feeling -- begging out -- zoning out -- whatever you want to call it Be (be.ewing): *vegging Samúð (oo0oo): the ne serves the other tea Bruce (bruce.mowbray): What makes the acceptance "radical"? Samúð (oo0oo): *one Calvino Rabeni: Radical means, perhaps, you don't pick and choose? Zen (zen.arado): I think because it is so unlike what we normally do Calvino Rabeni: Radical could mean, deep Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hmm...for some of us, zoning out is our default state :) Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes, Zen, and perhaps because we've previously been so resistant to such "guests." Zen (zen.arado): it's easy to sit here and agree with Rumi's poem but so hard to do what he says (I think) Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It's an individual thing, I feel. Calvino Rabeni: :) zen Bruce (bruce.mowbray): What I resist, you do not, etc. Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It's difficult to befriend difficulty Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Lulu :) Calvino Rabeni: when is the last time anyone tried it ? Zen (zen.arado): Hi Lulu Lulu Lacrima: Hi Ata! Lulu Lacrima: Hello Zen Dari (daryl.taov): ok folks, i m out for the night :) Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Lulu. Dari (daryl.taov): take care everybody Lulu Lacrima: I'm a bit laggy here Calvino Rabeni: Bye :) Zen (zen.arado): bye Dari Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Dari :) Dari (daryl.taov): try not to do too much :) Lulu Lacrima: guess I'm about 53 minutes late? Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, Daryl. Thanks for coming. Zen (zen.arado): :) Lulu Lacrima: hehe Samúð (oo0oo): Bye dari, hello lulu Lulu Lacrima: hello o0000o Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Meditation guideline: "Return to what is already there and rest." (In other words, simply be with whatever is there -- no resistance to it.) Zen (zen.arado): yes I practice that with things in my life Zen (zen.arado): but it certainly ain't easy Calvino Rabeni: Another question is, what gets in the way, what happens when trying to welcome the unwanted guest? If it is possible to "do" that, how can it be done? Calvino Rabeni: in practice Lulu Lacrima: Bruce, Zen, I try very hard to Be...but it's difficult for me sometimes Be (be.ewing): :) Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Perhaps what gets in the way of the guest is even more important to accept than the guest himself/herself. Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :) Be (be.ewing): try using Be as your name Be (be.ewing): it has some really interesting implications and responses :) Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Vel :) Calvino Rabeni: Does anyone have any cases to report of doing this? Lulu Lacrima: I'm a therapist in rl, and so I am All Lulu Lacrima: but I am None Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Velveta. Lulu Lacrima: I absorb Lulu Lacrima: and I dissipate Lulu Lacrima: but not fully Lulu Lacrima: there's the block Samúð (oo0oo): quality of relational journey to find edges, boundaries.. the boat to the other shore.. in out.. of our own experience, and that with 'others' Zen (zen.arado): Hi Vel :) Be (be.ewing): Lulu - by absorb do you mean assimilate? Lulu Lacrima: no, empathize Lulu Lacrima: fully Be (be.ewing): understand -- thanks for clarifying Calvino Rabeni: I think a lot of what happens in meditation, is dissipating what was absorbed in experience but not fully accepted Lulu Lacrima: ok Calvino Rabeni: when one isn't like the finger moving through water, more like sand Lulu Lacrima: Calvino, you make sense to me about the meditation process....to dissipate Lulu Lacrima: but see, sometimes, depending on the person I work with, I am almost become that person Calvino Rabeni: the finger stirs the water, ... one sits, and after a while the leftover effects dissipate or settle Samúð (oo0oo): as mind rearranges... we could be patient and forgiving Lulu Lacrima: boundaries are difficult sometimes Calvino Rabeni: indeed Samúð (oo0oo): indeed the more intimate the boundaries Lulu Lacrima: that perhaps is where I find my difficulties Zen (zen.arado): meditation is the best place to allow things to come up I think Samúð (oo0oo): place? Zen (zen.arado): don't how else to put it Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So, meditation is the ideal Guesthouse? Calvino Rabeni: :) Lulu Lacrima: but....if I weren't able to be intimate relative to those boundaries...perhaps I woldn't be able to do the job the way I see it should be done Lulu Lacrima: mmm Zen (zen.arado): best for practicing guesthouse skills? Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yeppers. Lulu Lacrima: guesthouse for whom? Zen (zen.arado): we are the guesthouse Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Rumi's poem, Lulu. . . we've been discussing today. Lulu Lacrima: oh Calvino Rabeni: that's a fun connection, Bruce, thanks Lulu Lacrima: forgive me, haven't read the poem Bruce Lulu Lacrima: Rui Violet (ataraxia.azemus): http://www.panhala.net/Archive/The_Guest_House.html Lulu Lacrima: *Rumi Violet (ataraxia.azemus): That's it :) Lulu Lacrima: ah Samúð (oo0oo): how to be homeless and a host Be (be.ewing): on a beach that is easy Zen (zen.arado): how to accept without resistance Zen (zen.arado): even thought resistance Lulu Lacrima: reminds me of a poem I wrote for a christmas gift to my friends...dunno if it's appropriate here, at this moment though Be (be.ewing): Lulu -- go for it Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð perks up to hear Zen (zen.arado): try us :) Lulu Lacrima: actually, I wrote two, but here's the first: Lulu Lacrima: on christmas eve i had in mind a poem in which i wanted very much to thank you all you’ve touched my life being you having brought to me the gift of you how each of you becomes absorbed and one with me the personal experience of me. past and present and to the future. absorption to the core of me contributes each in some important way to the genesis of Me. But on christmas eve, the poem that i wrote was bad, very bad, and it was late, and i was tired, so instead i wrote a note, my gift to you, my thanks to you, my gratitude. the gifts of you, transcendent and resplendent, old & new, lost & found, mature & young, and so to you, with thanks i say: i wish you joy, i wish you health, i wish you peace. i wish you love. Lulu Lacrima: and the second: Lulu Lacrima: all we leave behind us is compassion friends of old and friends renewed lost, found, circled through. you all have touched me differently i thank you each for: sympathy;

perspective. laughter, fortitude.

each its mark exist in me, my memory, identity.

Lulu Lacrima (edited) Copyright May, 2007

Lulu Lacrima: oops Zen (zen.arado): nice poems Lulu Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like them, Lulu :) Lulu Lacrima: now you know my rl name Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Druth :) Lulu Lacrima: thanks all Lulu Lacrima: I trust you all Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð feels welcomed and cared for druth Vlodovic: hey guys Zen (zen.arado): Hi Druth Bruce (bruce.mowbray): hey, druth. Be (be.ewing): that;'s beautiful Lulu Lacrima: but I feel that sense of connection that I think was intended in Rumi's poem? Calvino Rabeni: NOTE to the archivist - suggest striking the author's name Lulu Lacrima: thank you be Zen (zen.arado): that is an active expression Calvino Rabeni: Yes beautiful thanks Zen (zen.arado): important too Lulu Lacrima: thanks Calvino Lulu Lacrima: zen Lulu Lacrima: all Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima blushes Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :) Samúð (oo0oo): :) Bruce (bruce.mowbray): With that beautiful poem full of loving, I shall make my departure. Thanks, Lulu. Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Thanks everyone. Bruce (bruce.mowbray): See you next week. Calvino Rabeni: Prayers are a more active state of mentation than what's typcally called "thinking" Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, Bruce :) Zen (zen.arado): so...any topic ideas for next week? Lulu Lacrima: you're welcome Bruce...thanks for enjoying Be (be.ewing): Bruce and All -- take care :) Samúð (oo0oo): Be well Bruce! Zen (zen.arado): bye Bruce Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_ Calvino Rabeni: Take care Bruce Calvino Rabeni: How about "depth" Zen (zen.arado): ok can you add to that Cal? Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð feels a charge Zen (zen.arado): depth vs shallowness i practice? Violet (ataraxia.azemus): "Depth" is something we could talk about for months and only scratch the surface of :) Zen (zen.arado): :) Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, instead of focusing on a "content" idea, focus on the activity of reaching toward deeper insight or understanding Calvino Rabeni: yeah Atara Calvino Rabeni: but there's a good surface :) Zen (zen.arado): yeh ok Calvino Rabeni: sort of like asking ... how do you contemplate Calvino Rabeni: or direct attention? Lulu Lacrima: I like the idea of "why" do you contemplate Lulu Lacrima: ? Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I might miss next week...but that sounds good :) Calvino Rabeni: so as not to stay on surfaces, or in an automatic habit Calvino Rabeni: Why seems good too Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm Zen (zen.arado): sounds good to me Lulu Lacrima: oh, I just saw you Druth, hello Samúð (oo0oo): Hiya Druth Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, I have to be going...be well, everyone :) druth Vlodovic: hi :) Lulu Lacrima: ciao bella Ata violette druth Vlodovic: and so long violet Samúð (oo0oo): Bye Atari Zen (zen.arado): bye Violet Lulu Lacrima: friends of new, I will be off for a bit, but I am pleased to have been able to rejoin the Kira Cafe for today Lulu Lacrima: thank you Lulu Lacrima: and thank you for letting me share Calvino Rabeni: Good to meet you too, Lulu Samúð (oo0oo): :) LuLu Zen (zen.arado): nice to meet you again Lulu Lulu Lacrima: ciao all *bisous* druth Vlodovic: seems I missed all the excitement Zen (zen.arado): yeh we calkmed down now :) druth Vlodovic: hopefully I'llbe on time another day :) druth Vlodovic: take care all Zen (zen.arado): bye Druth Zen (zen.arado): nice to sit and 'non do' :) Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð sees plow.. turning soil.. gesture of movement and rolling crumbles.. innoculating some later contemplation, gone now, but cleared for view.. many things to appreciate... the cultivator, even before the plow a dream Samúð (oo0oo): [bye Druth] Zen (zen.arado): Zen thinks of a Seamus Heaney poem Samúð (oo0oo): the friendship between the soil, the blade and whatever perceives, lives on an edge that can never be seen Zen (zen.arado): but it was about cutting peat Zen (zen.arado): these meetings plowing us up Zen (zen.arado): making us receptive to new crops and growth Zen (zen.arado): (hopefully) Samúð (oo0oo): sorry to have mised the earlier parts, but glad i arrived for this great hospitality :)))) Thanks and fly well all. Arisia Vita: I too must fly... Samúð (oo0oo): Samúð bows. Gassho _/|\_ Arisia Vita: great to see you all Zen (zen.arado): thanks for coming all Calvino Rabeni: Is it better to focus on one Calvino Rabeni: 's strengths or weaknesses? Zen (zen.arado): good question Cal Zen (zen.arado): my teacher broached that the other week Zen (zen.arado): and said the latter Zen (zen.arado): which surprised me Zen (zen.arado): there's a koan about polishing a tile and beating the wagon instead of the horse.... Calvino Rabeni: I'm not suggesting choosing one OR the other, of course, both seem important, but for different reasons Zen (zen.arado): good topic we could discuss Calvino Rabeni: yeah Zen (zen.arado): I have to go Zen (zen.arado): take care