Guadalupe Sánchez Interview (English translation)
Los Recuerdos Oral History Project
Interview 68-8
Muñoz: Sr. I am going to start with the question about your parents. How did they get here, to Flagstaff? Let's start by who your parents are.
Sánchez: My parents?
Muñoz: Yes, Sr.
Sánchez: My father was called Ignasio Sánchez, my mother was called Adelaida. Adelaida Sánchez because of her husband, but it was... my mother's father's last name was Saguzeda. Adelaida Zaguzeda.
Muñoz: And how did they get to Flagstaff?
Sánchez: Me... they never came here. Well my father did, my father worked in the quarries of Berkeley, California. But there a stone was going to kill him, according to what people used to tell me , because I was little. He died when I was 4 years old. He went out of there already sick, and died. I was born in 1901, 1901. And then my father died and my mother and my sister were still there, but my mother was first married to her first husband who died, and she had a daughter from her first husband, her name was Libradita, Libi. From there she got married again, with my father, and two brothers and one sister were born, but my sister died there.
Muñoz: Did you come to Flagstaff by yourself?
Sánchez: No, I came... we were three siblings. The oldest brother was called Pascual Sánchez, and the other brother was called José, and myself, Guadalupe. During that time, they did not charge for crossing. You just put your name there where that office was, and the rule was to bring $5 to come from there, because we did not have how to pay for the trip! But so we did not starve, maybe that was the law!!! From the government, that we had to bring 5 pesos and with those 5 American pesos we were able to pass.
Muñoz: Which side did you come from ?
Sánchez: The village where I was born was called Cabrio de Guadalupe, that was its name, Michoacan, México.
Muñoz: And then you went up?
Sánchez: No, there, when we came from there, well by the Mexican train, we came all the way to el Paso, from there we went to the el Paso office. They did not charge anything, but you know what?... That they the wagon and the cloth, they took it from you and they put it to disinfect.
Muñoz: Oh, oh!
Sánchez: And a man said: he said, I recommend you that if you have any leather cloth, during that time everyone used leather pants in Mexico, because the leather cannot be put to disinfect because it damages.
Muñoz: Yes, Yes
Sánchez: There they to us
Sánchez: And that is how we crossed. In 1916, I was 16 years old.
Muñoz: When you arrived to here to Flagstaff?
Sánchez: Yes
Muñoz: And after you came here [ what do you remember], what did you do?
Sánchez: When I came here, the first time, when we came from there, we worked in the, in the rail road, there were positions and we worked there for two years. From there, my brother went to bring his wife from Mexico and then came here, [name of his brother not specified, not clear about letter sent to California.]
Muñoz: Yes... in what year was that, do you remember?
Sánchez: When we....
Muñoz: Arrived here
Sánchez: When we arrived here?
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: It was in 1918 [?].
Muñoz: When you arrived here, to Flagstaff?
Sánchez: Yes
Muñoz: Ah!
Muñoz: And what do you remember about your life when you arrived here, what kind of job, or where
Sánchez: Here, afterwards, my job was to fall trees.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: So, there were two saw mills... there were three, one was the company, the other one ALT company and the other one the I worked in the ALT company. There were positions up there in the forest with my salary and everything. We lived there, and I worked with wood for thirty years!
Muñoz: Thirty years! For a long time
Sánchez: Thirty years!, that is why I receive pension from the company
Muñoz: That was the first job you did? To fall trees?
Sánchez: Yes... yes
Muñoz: Were you 16?
Sánchez: But then, no!!! when I was 16 I started working!!!
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: But I worked during thirty years
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: Up there working in the forest, falling trees. first with and then with .Later on the chain saw were used. I fell trees for thirty years, after thirty years, I quit and I could not work anymore, do you know why? because my shoulder was hurting, it still hurts. When I realized that it was hurting, I said.. .I am going to leave this job, it is too hard. And I quit and went to work in the rail track, to work there.
Muñoz: In the rail track!!!
Sánchez: Ah the rail track that ran from the saw mill to the forest to work the here. to make them board in the saw mill.
Muñoz: And who were you working for during that time? Who was it?
Sánchez: What?
Muñoz: Who was the company, what was its name?
Sánchez: In what year?
Muñoz: No, the company! What was its name?
Sánchez: Oh! !the company!! It was ALT
Muñoz: ALT
Muñoz: Ok, let's go back. When you came to Flagstaff, where did you live here? How did you know Flagstaff when you arrived here? Were there a lot of houses?
Sánchez: No!!! no, there were not many this was a very small village
Muñoz: Too small!
Sánchez: Uhhh!!! Now it is double size . Uh!!! There were only those small stores in downtown. That was all, a drugstore.. ..a bank.. .The bank.
Muñoz: The bank, yes
Muñoz: And....
Sánchez: No!!! there was nothing here
Muñoz: There was nothing here in the part of Flagstaff?
Sánchez: All this is new!!!
Muñoz: All that is new, there were not houses there ah!!!
Sánchez: No!!!
Muñoz: So, do you remember where you lived?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Where were you living when you were here in Flagstaff?
Sánchez: Oh! When I was in the forest
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: There was a time where there was no job up there, and they took us to a place close to the cemetery, they took us with the small houses we had. They were taking us down and up . So they took us down and we were living close to the cemetery, in the small houses. So... me, when we were living there I came and.. .this house belongs to the Babbitts.
Muñoz: This one.. .yes
Sánchez: So I came to rent this house and I took it. They were living here. Even though they were the most wealthy in town, they were living in a filthy place made with a paper... black paper, the one people use to wrap with lot of bed bugs that were itching when we were using the couch.
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: And that is how they were living.
Muñoz: The Babbitts Ah!!
Sánchez: The wealthiest, and I came down here and they asked me If I wanted to rent the house and I pay them the rent. And... after a while they said.. .we sell it to you if you want, I asked my wife.. .so I said to this lady's mother.. .what do you think? They are selling me this house, what do you think? Should we buy it ? what do you think I said.. .she said.. .you work for it and I take care of it. Exactly I said, that is what I wanted you to say. I work for it and you take care of it.
Muñoz: Yes, It's all right
Sánchez: It's ok, we will make it. So I came .. ..This house cost me nine hundred pesos.
Muñoz: Nine hundred... was that dollars?
Sánchez: And so I bought it to those people. Because later on when I was living here he said, I sell it to you!!! When I asked my wife what do you think... .As I just told you!
Muñoz: What were the Babbitts' names that were living here?
Sánchez: What's that? No, no, the king Babbitts.
Muñoz: The king Babbitt, ah!. And this was your only first house?
Sánchez: This one, yes
Muñoz: But as a child...
Sánchez: No!!! do you know what? That after a while it burned.!!!
Muñoz: Oh!!!
Sánchez: It burned! You did not know that ?
Muñoz: Oh! Yes, it was last year.
Sánchez: Yes!
Muñoz: Yes, yes
Sánchez: It burned and then lots of Christian people helped me and they the house. It did not cost me anything, they .
Muñoz: Ah!
Muñoz: Ok, let's go back to the memories of when you had.. ..right after you came here and you were 16 and worked in the forest and lived there, in the ...
Sánchez: When I arrived to the forest
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: There in the field of California, because my brother went to bring his family and came all the way here. And from here he wrote me. We were three.
Muñoz: Si.
Sánchez: The oldest was called Pascual and he brought Libradita because her mom died. My mother had already died. He said. Now she is alone and I will go and get her.! He said: you guys stay here. We stayed in California, but since he had a friend who lived here, that worked here, he told him: do not go and so Pascual stayed here. So he wrote to us to California and my brother said you guys come here because we will be here. So we came here, while in the field, there working, cutting wood So there was where I taught myself to fall trees, I did not know.
Muñoz: Yes... and when you were living there in the field, which was the name of the company you were working for?
Sánchez: Yes!!! The company had a small train that ran where the ones working and it had a caboose on the back part.
Muñoz: Aha!
Sánchez: They were transporting people in the caboose, when... the people who wanted to come to the village.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: We used to come for the 4th of July the parties and everything. The people who wanted to come during that time.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: Instead of being of the company.
Muñoz: Oh, then that way they transported then to town when they needed to buy?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: To buy groceries? The caboose used to bring them? To buy the food?
Sánchez: To buy the food?
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: We used to buy the food there!!! I am telling you that there was a commissary !
Muñoz: Oh, ok!
Sánchez: Up there in the forest there was a man that had a commissary, a store that had everything. We used to go there regardless if we had money or not. Everyone had food because there were some coupons that we used to buy. The cheapest was from 5 pesos, 10 and 20 was the biggest. And the company gave us those tickets there, and they deducted that money from our paychecks. They used to give them us no matter if we had money or not, but the paycheck day they deducted them. And they had stamps.
Muñoz: Oh, yes
Sánchez: So you went to the commissary.. .and asked for this or that, and they took the stamps, the price.
Muñoz: Oh! Yes, they were doing it that way
Sánchez: That way was it, that way they do not and we used to eat and there was everything. But that way we used to buy it.
Muñoz: Oh!!!... And how old were you when you came down here?
Sánchez: Oh! I was 21
Muñoz: 21 years old?
Sánchez: Yes
Muñoz: And then is when you came
Sánchez: Yes because I crossed when I was 16
Muñoz: When you were 16, you worked there
Sánchez: I worked because the law was that you had to be 21. They gave you jobs, younger than that they did not give you any jobs. But we had the need to work for living!
Sánchez: Yes, . I was very young, I was 16. I used to say
Muñoz: So, in other words you never went to school here in Flagstaff? You never went?
Sánchez: No... I never went. Where I went to.. .as I tell you, to California.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: In California, when I was there I went to school. But they put too many ladies so we could say hi to them . That how... right?
Muñoz: Sure!
Sánchez: They were seated there and the guys here. So I went and ... but we had to say hi to them in English ah! . So, They were laughing about what I was saying. And I felt embarrassed and I never went back.
Muñoz: You never went back
Sánchez: I never went back
Muñoz: Oh!
Muñoz: And that was the time when you went to California or went for a few years to live there?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: No, in California, when you went there, you went for a while?
Sánchez: I in California in the city of Ontario, California
Muñoz: Ontario?
Sánchez: Ontario, California, close to Los Angeles
Muñoz: Oh!
Muñoz: And for how long did you live there?
Sánchez: There, when we had something . Los Angeles, we used to take a bus, the buses that ran through the road!, we used to catch the bus. We used to be in the corners of the road! And there we used to take the bus. One used to pay to go to Los Angeles... We used to go for something to Los Angeles and it was pretty nice. There was a Mexican plaza.
Muñoz: Yes.
Sánchez: A plaza that had everything, all the Mexican food. We used to go there and to buy and eat. Since we came back in the same bus to where we lived.
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: That is the way it was
Sánchez: In California... yes
Muñoz: Did you guys go to visit relatives there? Is that what the story is saying?
Sánchez: We went for what?
Muñoz: To visit your family there?
Sánchez: No!, to Mexico ?
Muñoz: No, to California
Sánchez: No, to visit my family only when my brother .. ..my brother who died was called Jose. He was older than me, and he lived in Santa Ana, California. I used to visit him there, and when he got sick I used to visit him often to see how he was until he died. I never stopped seeing him. Until the last time I went that was when he was going to say goodbye to this world and died. So after we buried him and everything, then I left and came here. And then I could not.. ..when my sister- in- law died I could not go .. .no, no, I could not go, she was the woman of my brother. Her name was Isabel, Isabel .
Muñoz: I am going to ask about the activities that were going on here in Flagstaff. You were saying that you were coming by train for the 4th of July were there dancing, or what was here on the 4th of July?
Sánchez: My wife?
Muñoz: Yes, when you were coming here on the 4th of July what types of activities were here?
Sánchez: No, my wife's name was Teresa, here name was than this woman.
Muñoz: Yes, yes
Sánchez: Because I did not have any other woman besides her.
Muñoz: Sure!!
Muñoz: Ok, I will ask now, when you were coming by train from work...
Sánchez: I... I was working in the forest and she was living here... I used to come on Saturdays. Because there was food up there in the forest. There was a commissary and there was a cafeteria! You paid for eating and I was there all week and on Saturday I used to come to see her there. I arrived here and she was living in a small house, there close to the cemetery.
Muñoz: I see
Sánchez: And she was so scared of the dead!.. ..no, no but I did not have, she with the windows that were like that covered.
Muñoz: Do you remember about the activities that were going on here in Flagstaff, such as dancing, parties, celebrations, what types of celebrations were going on in Flagstaff?
Sánchez: No, no, there was nothing.
Muñoz: There was nothing? There were no dancing parties either?
Sánchez: No... there was nothing
Muñoz: Don't you remember?
Sánchez: there was nothing, nothing like that.
Muñoz: And the meals you ate for example, here in the house when you and your wife came, did you used to bring groceries, or her...
Sánchez: Oh no, when I used to come here, the groceries... there was a commissary here too, from the same company. One went as I am telling you, and got food and you brought them . The pay day they deduct one . But food was never missing.! Anyway one always ate.
Sánchez: Yes, yes
Muñoz: And what types of food?, flour ...
Sánchez: So, the big one here ... was the "Dolan", Mr. Dolan. I still remember the house, a big house. And he, when we... he saw that we had no jobs, he told the secretary he had in his office, he asked her to give all the employees 10 pesos a week! 10 pesos to buy the food. With 10 pesos we had for the whole week.
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: Everything was so cheap!
Muñoz: Everything, yes
Sánchez: We used to go there and ask for 10 pesos. They did not give us everything on the pay day, but it helped.
Muñoz: Did you know the Chantes, the people who worked for the "Dolan"?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: The Chantes, do you remember that they also had some houses there next to the saw mill? When the forest was on ...
Sánchez: [conversation not clear]
Muñoz: Yes, yes
Sánchez: And then me, from the years that I worked, as I tell you, I received pension.
Muñoz: Pension yes,
Sánchez: And I still have it! That pension.
Muñoz: Very good... they take care of you guys.
Sánchez: They still
Muñoz: Yes
Muñoz: What kind of.... For example, were there cars during that time?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Were there cars or trucks, or were you guys walking? What kind of transportation was during that time?
Sánchez: Well, no.. .there was nothing like that. They were transporting themselves by train.
Muñoz: By train
Sánchez: The train brought the things, and , and there they were unloading everything.
Muñoz: Yes, and you did not have either...
Sánchez: There were no trucks like there are now , no, no.
Muñoz: What did you use? To go to town?
Sánchez: What were we using? To go to town?
Muñoz: Yes!
Sánchez: I am telling you that we were in the forest and there was a small train from the same company that ran through the forest, and it carried a caboose and it was transporting us when we needed to come to town. We used to come and stay for some days, what we wanted, to have fun. We had food there. There was a commissary, but we came here just to enjoy the trip.
Muñoz: To travel around.
Sánchez: Like in the 4th of July, when that man was killed. His name was Juan.
Muñoz: Who killed him ?
Sánchez: Another Mexican killed him...
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: Because he, according according to the story
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: You know what, they like to play cards.
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: So he carne ... and later I learned that it was like that. This guy was a guy that used to stay with me in the forest , but I knew him. He was bad! Mexican! But he was good and we got along. We were living together there in the [chante], in the same place. And that guy came for the 4th of July. And since there was going to be a card game, that guy Juan was going to play cards, and he played. They were playing "alburis", that is how they call it. So he was walking, someone was holding him and I . So he told him... he said: so go and bet cheap guy. Because he was betting $ 0.25 only! So the other guy told him... no Sr., when I have the cards I never tell you how much... if $0.5 ok! Whatever you want. I am telling you he said. He was not getting out when the other one had the cards he bet 2 pesos, that he wanted. So he told him... I already told you to go out son of...! Ah!!!! He said, listen, watch out your language. He said . Well! He left! And so... they were selling guns here. It was not like now, it does not mean that they were going to get a license . No, you just went, brought the money, bought... 50 or 40, whatever the price of the gun was.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: He bought it, he went and got the gun. And he came and told him... come here and he grabbed him. When he was crossing the street, right there in that corner where that ranch is here. When he was passing by he told him .... He told him... where are you taking me guy? he hit him and made him fall!. And then he took out the .... And ta ta ta!!!
Muñoz: And he hit him ?
Sánchez: He killed him!!!
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: And he fell dead, he fell there in the corner. When he was dying, since he was drunk!. So there was liquor, there were no bars. The liquor was made illegally. Many women had that business. they made it.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: Well, so the man went out when he fell. I think he hit him, and he was dying...
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: And then that guy said.. .ah!!!! You are not going to die far. you don't die. And then he got there and pulled back his hair and then the Mexican police came out. A policeman... I do not remember his name , yes I do not remember. He came out and told him, ah!!! Do no not kill him!!! So he pulled out his gun and pointed him, no, no, no!!! so he killed him. And as I am telling you, he was dying and collapsed in the corner.
Starting Side 2
[Confusing the beginning of side 2 of the tape]
Sánchez: And he left!!! And other thing!!! Since we were roommates at work, he wrote me. He was working at Grantis. He wrote me and said. Here I am working at Grantis. I told him: you know what? Because the government said that they were giving 2000 pesos for his capture. So I told him... are you do it? Go to Mexico, because you know what ? that they are paying 2000 pesos if someone says where you are. I . I do not give any man for money, no, no. And so, he left.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: But later they knew it and the police went to Mexico and he could not pass. There he said... they say that the police. To the American police from here right. here. But later he surrendered to the Mexican government and said: there is a government here too. If it is possible for what I did, They can kill me here immediately! They can kill me, they can kill me but I will not go to the Unites States, only dead I will go there. I will not go there alive. they could not bring him. So they surrendered to the government and they asked where the dead guy was from, and they said he was from Guadalajara, and the capital of Guadalajara is Escobedo, and they went to Escobedo to look for him, to see the dead guy something. And the dead guy had killed someone as he was killed, there it was written, that he had money for United States. Because he has killed someone, he had killed the one there he pulled back his hair, as they did with his. They said the same thing. Later a guy was going out, he talked. The same!!
Muñoz: And that was the first crime here in Flagstaff?
Sánchez: Yes, here, it happened here, here in Flag...
Muñoz: Here in Flag
Sánchez: And I was, as I am telling you, we were coming from the forest to see the place. We were in the hotel sleeping and I went out... we were coming with other friends. So I went out and said: I will go for a watermelon, to buy a watermelon. So I saw a lot of people there and I told a guy there, there is a dead guy and I do not know... maybe is someone from the field. Let's go and see And we went to see and . He was working in the field too, he was killed there.
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: I went through all that. I saw it, I saw it.
Muñoz: Yes... and do you remember the police name that was....
Sánchez: That it was nothing
Muñoz: It was nothing
Sánchez: A few and a few things there
Muñoz: Were there too many Mexicans here ?
Sánchez: Yes, there were always Mexicans
Muñoz: Always!
Muñoz: And all of them were working in the forest?
Sánchez: In the forest, everyone worked in the forest. I am telling you that there were positions there.
Muñoz: Yes, yes. And they were only working as if . Land like com?
Sánchez: Yes! There was not too much .. .there was not much, there was a ranch and it had chickens and all that! And vegetables ! and there chicken or whatever you wanted. And I used to sell, sell chickens.
Muñoz: So you had chickens and ... goats and . Did not you guys have that? The chicken to produce eggs and the goats to give milk? Ah?
Sánchez: No, there was nothing,
Muñoz: No?
Sánchez: There was nothing, there was nothing like that there. We used to go to the store and bring the stuff.
Muñoz: You were talking about the liquor, that it was prohibited to make it right?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: The liquor.
Sánchez: The drink?
Muñoz: The drink that...
Sánchez: Oh the liquor! There was no liquor, there was not, it was prohibited. When I came here the bars were opened, but some time later the law closed the bars and so many people made it at home. The knew how to make it!
Muñoz: Illegally
Sánchez: They called it Jay Miller . They used to sell it in some houses and people who liked it used to go and buy it there. That is why people were still drunk.
Muñoz: Ah!
Sánchez: But they were drinking that drink. But it was good, it was well made.
Muñoz: It was well made?
Sánchez: It was well made
Muñoz: Did they make it where all the Mexicans were?
Sánchez: Yes!
Muñoz: And for example, do you remember that Mexicans were always living in the South of Flagstaff? Do you remember that Mexicans were living close to this side of the rail track?
Sánchez: No... the people... there was few people, it was not like now. There was not too many Mexicans
Muñoz: There were not too many...
Sánchez: Yes! There were some
Muñoz: Just a few
Muñoz: And everyone knew each other? The Mexicans knew each other?
Sánchez: Yes, yes, almost... everybody. Very few do not, but yes everyone knew each other. We were not friends but we knew each other.
Muñoz: Did you gather together to have...
Sánchez: No... some of us were friends and got together to go somewhere, if there was a party or something, because we had to there were doing something and we used to go and see. We used to pay to see. We used to gather with two or three friends. Because not all of us were friends . Not all of us.
Muñoz: No... just acquaintances
Sánchez: It was like that during that time that was the way.
Muñoz: Well, during that time, what kinds of doctors were here?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Doctors!
Sánchez: Doctors?
Muñoz: Yes! Were there any doctors during that time?
Sánchez: Yes! There were. But there was.... One doctor. I met one.
Muñoz: You met one?
Sánchez: One doctor, I do not remember . I met him very well, And he got to know me too.
Muñoz: Yes! Ah!
Sánchez: Because... when something happened to you were went to see him. We paid him...
Muñoz: And where was that doctor, on the North or in this side?
Sánchez: No! he was here in the rail track
Muñoz: In that rail track? In what side of the rail track, in the other side of the rail track or in this side
Sánchez: He had his house on that side.
Muñoz: Oh! There
Sánchez: And we used to go when we were feeling... when we needed...
Muñoz: Yes
Muñoz: And do you remember if they were healers?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Do you remember if there were healers during that time? healers? You do not know what healers mean?
Sánchez: Schools?
Muñoz: No, healers, the ones who come to your house to heal you, masseurs o...
Sánchez: Ah!!! Masseurs
Muñoz: masseurs o healers
Sánchez: Yes, masseurs, well no... I do not remember. No there were not too many.
Muñoz: There were not during that time
Sánchez: Like now that we have people that come... no , but not during that time.
Muñoz: You do not remember when you came from Mexico either...
Sánchez: Someone who knew about the same Mexicans...
Muñoz: Yes exactly that I was going Sánchez
Muñoz: Yes they went with those Sánchez
Muñoz: No, no, no. And they could help.
Sánchez: Because there have always been people that even though they do not have they know how to do it. If you have a broken leg or arm. There were people who knew, not too many, few people knew
Muñoz: Here in Flagstaff few people knew it right?
Sánchez: One knew when . We used to go their house and . And we paid them. It was like that during that time. . Now is so different!
Muñoz: Oh yes!!! It has changed too much hasn't it? Yes, it has changed. You have seen all the changes in the world
Sánchez: Oh! Yes
Muñoz: Oh!
Muñoz: Yes, and the other question I was going to ask... for example, the church, were there many churches here?
Sánchez: No, only the Guadalupe Church
Muñoz: Oh, you remember that one
Sánchez: Oh, yes
Sánchez: And after a while it was ... little by little there was a Baptist Church. I used to go to that church, the Baptist.
Muñoz: Do you remember when...
Sánchez: I did not go the Catholic Church
Muñoz: No, you did not go?
Sánchez: No, I used to go to the Baptist Church. I had those beliefs.
Muñoz: Baptist Ah!!
Sánchez: I used to go there and there were Mexican preachers. Mexican Pastors that explained everything regarding God's word, the Scripture. There they preaching everything, in Spanish...
Muñoz: In Spanish?
Sánchez: And in English too
Muñoz: They were coming from Mexico? The pastors were coming from Mexico too? To ?
Sánchez: What's that ?
Muñoz: That if those Mexican pastors came from Mexico?
Sánchez: Pastors?
Muñoz: Yes, were they from Mexico?
Sánchez: Well, some of them were from Mexico and other were not. Some of them were from here. They were not from Mexico, they were from here.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: But there was an American who had two kids. He spoke really good Spanish. He spoke Spanish like us.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: He explained everything, and all his sons spoke Spanish.
Muñoz: Yes and this river, has it always been on this side of your house?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: The river that is on this side of the house, has it always been flowing by here, by the village? The river in Flag... the river that is right here on the other side of your house?
Sánchez: ?
Muñoz: No, no, that there has always been water flowing by there. Do you remember if the river has overflowed ? Has it ever hit you? I am talking about the river, the water, that water that flows by... this river.
Sánchez: Where?
Muñoz: On this side of the house
Sánchez: No! well just the river, the river that goes by. Like when it snows too much there. It melts there from the mountains that are here runs to here, [and]on the other side of the mountain goes to some other part.
Muñoz: Yes!
Sánchez: Everything that is on the San Francisco Peaks, everything on that side comes here and comes through this river.
Muñoz: And it never...
Sánchez: Sometimes it gets bigger when the snow melts. It comes up to here.
Muñoz: Oh! Yes too much. And the people that you... The Babbitts, the ones you bought this house from, this was the only house on this side?
Sánchez: Yes! It has always been in this side. It has never been moved to any other place. The has been here. But as I am telling you, it burned once...
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: So . And the people helped, everyone! Everyone! . It did not cost me anything. They helped me with my house.
Muñoz: Oh! What nice people
Sánchez: New, because the other one burned. Only my cloth did not burn.
Muñoz: Oh! Very good
Sánchez: No... but everything was full of smoke . We took the cloth to clean and they fix it.
Muñoz: Yes... I am going to ask you if you remember about the Revolution in Mexico? Do you remember that?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Revolución? Revolution
Sánchez: Revolución?
Muñoz: Yes, in Mexico, do you remember?
Sánchez: Oh! In Mexico. When I came, there was too much revolution, very dangerous. That is why my brother told my mom: he told her: Aunt! He called her Aunt because he was not his son. His mother was someone else, because his father was married twice. He was like half brother of mine, but he was the oldest! So he told her aunt! I am leaving to... we did not say United States, we said the North. I am leaving to the North, I am taking the guys, what do you say? She said oh! It hurts me a lot my mother said. But... I prefer if you take them I will suffer their absence but I do not suffer thinking that they will stay here and will be killed. Because they killed people.
Muñoz: Just to kill them?
Sánchez: Like a dog, like animals
Muñoz: Yes, I believe that!
Sánchez: I saw it.
Muñoz: How sad, how sad
Sánchez: Uuuuu!!! It happened so many years ago! I was, when I crossed as I tell you, I was . But it was awful, awful. You could hear it. I woke up once because I needed to feed the animals there, because one worked with animals.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: I know that, I have done it. those animals are since we harvest the corn field big corn fields with lots of corn, corn and pumpkins, and beans. He harvested everything, I know how to do it. Wheat!! The wheat when you take it and you bring it to the mill to grind flour, and then you have flour. You take your animals, we took the burros full of wheat and took them to the mill and they gave you flour for the amount of wheat you had. Then they weighed the flour.
Muñoz: It was a lot of work.
Sánchez: And then you had flour. If you wanted to make. Yes , the tortillas of...
Muñoz: Flour tortillas?
Sánchez: Flour, made from pure corn
Muñoz: Pure corn, yes.
Sánchez: There were mills! And now there are too many mills.. ..you can go whenever you want for your warm tortillas, no matter at what time. Now the mills to make tortillas are more modern and different, compared to those years. In those years the women in .
Muñoz: It was a lot of work... a lot of work
Mu??oz: Let me ask you, during the time that you remember, when you were living here, if someone died, who buried them? If there were deaths for example when you came here, were there funerals and who buried them?
Sánchez: Funerals, the dead?
Muñoz: No, funerals of the death
Sánchez: Oh! Of the death! No.. .well some people died. Many times then... but then whoever wanted the autopsy, which mean to clean the body right? The autopsy. Well if you had money . Three days you had to bury someone. After three days, the law forced you... because the body went bad. .
Muñoz: Here in Flagstaff
Sánchez: Here they took them to bury them.
Muñoz: Interesting ah!
Sánchez:
Muñoz: Was there Mass for the dead in your religion?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Like there are now, there are Mass for the dead, during that time the pastor also came to you house?
Sánchez:
Muñoz: No, no the pastor of your religion. Did he used to come to the dead's house to pray? You do not remember?
Muñoz: No... there was not that.
Muñoz: There was not?
Sánchez: No, no, no. Now we have all that but not in those past years. What you are doing now is very modern!
Muñoz: Yes, no, but during that time.. .what I wanted to know is if during that time was also like that and how different it was from what it is now?
Sánchez: Very different!
Muñoz: Oh yes! Only three days they gave to a dead person? And where was the cemetery?
Sánchez: Where was what?
Muñoz: The cemetery, where did they bury the dead?
Sánchez: Ah! Bury the dead, it is where the cemetery is. There were two cemeteries, the Protestant and the Catholic, they are together. Still.
Muñoz: The same ? Still?
Sánchez: Yes, the same still. The ones who were not Catholic were buried in the cemetery on this side, and the other side were the Catholics, they buried them there.
Muñoz: Yes, yes, yes.
Muñoz: I thought it was different during that time, when you were younger. I thought there was one here on the hill.
Sánchez: Yes!
Muñoz: Was there that one in the hill?
Sánchez: The other one there!
Muñoz: And the other one was towards the other side! Uh!
Sánchez: It was very different. If you were not Catholic, they never buried you in the Catholic cemetery. They buried you in the cemetery.
Muñoz: Did you see a lot of weddings?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Did you see lots of weddings and celebrated lots of weddings?
Sánchez: Well, I believe this... that there is only one God
Muñoz: Oh yes!
Sánchez: And that is the only God for everything. Catholics and Protestants are the same thing.
Muñoz: Its is true, that is true
Sánchez: Because both of them believe in God. The only thing is that Catholics have a big difference? [They make everything into idolatry.] Idolatry is when for example they put paper or silk Saints, and people kneel to pray or in that As the Word of God says, they have eyes but they do not see, they have mouth but they do not eat... and they do not talk... they are a dead being. how are you going to believe in something if it is made with hands of sinners! The Saint they are adoring is not legal! No! there is no more than one God.
Muñoz: Let me ask you this question, the question is... if you remember if there were any weddings, if there were big weddings here in Flagstaff, do you remember the weddings?
Sánchez: Yes!
Muñoz: And the weddings, how did they prepare them, do you remember?
Sánchez: The weddings?
Muñoz: The weddings
Sánchez: The weddings were when for example someone was getting married right?
Muñoz: Yes...
Sánchez: Some people have money and have a dancing party, they pay the musicians so they can play. When they get married, right, there are some who get married but do not do anything. Some of them cannot afford it or just do not like it.
Muñoz: That is true.
Sánchez: That is the way the weddings were before here. The ones who have money go and pay for the music and a big wedding, food and everything. And the poor cannot.
Muñoz: No!
Muñoz: Do you remember about music... I was going to ask you if you remember if there were very many musicians here in town, when they gathered to play music. You do not remember that? Did not you meet musicians that played music?
Sánchez: Oh! the guitar?
Muñoz: The guitar and everything!
Sánchez: Oh yes!!! A lot, I met lots of guys. One paid them to play the guitar and come to your house. Come and play and you were paid. They used to sing and play songs to you. Yes we used that a lot during those years. They used to play whenever you wanted, for a newborn birth or any other thing.
Muñoz: I think we finished with the questions...
Sánchez: And it is still like that...
Muñoz: Well, I have to thank you for your time and yours stories and for participating with me. Thank you Mr. Guadalupe!

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Guadalupe Sánchez Interview (English translation)
Los Recuerdos Oral History Project
Interview 68-8
Muñoz: Sr. I am going to start with the question about your parents. How did they get here, to Flagstaff? Let's start by who your parents are.
Sánchez: My parents?
Muñoz: Yes, Sr.
Sánchez: My father was called Ignasio Sánchez, my mother was called Adelaida. Adelaida Sánchez because of her husband, but it was... my mother's father's last name was Saguzeda. Adelaida Zaguzeda.
Muñoz: And how did they get to Flagstaff?
Sánchez: Me... they never came here. Well my father did, my father worked in the quarries of Berkeley, California. But there a stone was going to kill him, according to what people used to tell me , because I was little. He died when I was 4 years old. He went out of there already sick, and died. I was born in 1901, 1901. And then my father died and my mother and my sister were still there, but my mother was first married to her first husband who died, and she had a daughter from her first husband, her name was Libradita, Libi. From there she got married again, with my father, and two brothers and one sister were born, but my sister died there.
Muñoz: Did you come to Flagstaff by yourself?
Sánchez: No, I came... we were three siblings. The oldest brother was called Pascual Sánchez, and the other brother was called José, and myself, Guadalupe. During that time, they did not charge for crossing. You just put your name there where that office was, and the rule was to bring $5 to come from there, because we did not have how to pay for the trip! But so we did not starve, maybe that was the law!!! From the government, that we had to bring 5 pesos and with those 5 American pesos we were able to pass.
Muñoz: Which side did you come from ?
Sánchez: The village where I was born was called Cabrio de Guadalupe, that was its name, Michoacan, México.
Muñoz: And then you went up?
Sánchez: No, there, when we came from there, well by the Mexican train, we came all the way to el Paso, from there we went to the el Paso office. They did not charge anything, but you know what?... That they the wagon and the cloth, they took it from you and they put it to disinfect.
Muñoz: Oh, oh!
Sánchez: And a man said: he said, I recommend you that if you have any leather cloth, during that time everyone used leather pants in Mexico, because the leather cannot be put to disinfect because it damages.
Muñoz: Yes, Yes
Sánchez: There they to us
Sánchez: And that is how we crossed. In 1916, I was 16 years old.
Muñoz: When you arrived to here to Flagstaff?
Sánchez: Yes
Muñoz: And after you came here [ what do you remember], what did you do?
Sánchez: When I came here, the first time, when we came from there, we worked in the, in the rail road, there were positions and we worked there for two years. From there, my brother went to bring his wife from Mexico and then came here, [name of his brother not specified, not clear about letter sent to California.]
Muñoz: Yes... in what year was that, do you remember?
Sánchez: When we....
Muñoz: Arrived here
Sánchez: When we arrived here?
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: It was in 1918 [?].
Muñoz: When you arrived here, to Flagstaff?
Sánchez: Yes
Muñoz: Ah!
Muñoz: And what do you remember about your life when you arrived here, what kind of job, or where
Sánchez: Here, afterwards, my job was to fall trees.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: So, there were two saw mills... there were three, one was the company, the other one ALT company and the other one the I worked in the ALT company. There were positions up there in the forest with my salary and everything. We lived there, and I worked with wood for thirty years!
Muñoz: Thirty years! For a long time
Sánchez: Thirty years!, that is why I receive pension from the company
Muñoz: That was the first job you did? To fall trees?
Sánchez: Yes... yes
Muñoz: Were you 16?
Sánchez: But then, no!!! when I was 16 I started working!!!
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: But I worked during thirty years
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: Up there working in the forest, falling trees. first with and then with .Later on the chain saw were used. I fell trees for thirty years, after thirty years, I quit and I could not work anymore, do you know why? because my shoulder was hurting, it still hurts. When I realized that it was hurting, I said.. .I am going to leave this job, it is too hard. And I quit and went to work in the rail track, to work there.
Muñoz: In the rail track!!!
Sánchez: Ah the rail track that ran from the saw mill to the forest to work the here. to make them board in the saw mill.
Muñoz: And who were you working for during that time? Who was it?
Sánchez: What?
Muñoz: Who was the company, what was its name?
Sánchez: In what year?
Muñoz: No, the company! What was its name?
Sánchez: Oh! !the company!! It was ALT
Muñoz: ALT
Muñoz: Ok, let's go back. When you came to Flagstaff, where did you live here? How did you know Flagstaff when you arrived here? Were there a lot of houses?
Sánchez: No!!! no, there were not many this was a very small village
Muñoz: Too small!
Sánchez: Uhhh!!! Now it is double size . Uh!!! There were only those small stores in downtown. That was all, a drugstore.. ..a bank.. .The bank.
Muñoz: The bank, yes
Muñoz: And....
Sánchez: No!!! there was nothing here
Muñoz: There was nothing here in the part of Flagstaff?
Sánchez: All this is new!!!
Muñoz: All that is new, there were not houses there ah!!!
Sánchez: No!!!
Muñoz: So, do you remember where you lived?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Where were you living when you were here in Flagstaff?
Sánchez: Oh! When I was in the forest
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: There was a time where there was no job up there, and they took us to a place close to the cemetery, they took us with the small houses we had. They were taking us down and up . So they took us down and we were living close to the cemetery, in the small houses. So... me, when we were living there I came and.. .this house belongs to the Babbitts.
Muñoz: This one.. .yes
Sánchez: So I came to rent this house and I took it. They were living here. Even though they were the most wealthy in town, they were living in a filthy place made with a paper... black paper, the one people use to wrap with lot of bed bugs that were itching when we were using the couch.
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: And that is how they were living.
Muñoz: The Babbitts Ah!!
Sánchez: The wealthiest, and I came down here and they asked me If I wanted to rent the house and I pay them the rent. And... after a while they said.. .we sell it to you if you want, I asked my wife.. .so I said to this lady's mother.. .what do you think? They are selling me this house, what do you think? Should we buy it ? what do you think I said.. .she said.. .you work for it and I take care of it. Exactly I said, that is what I wanted you to say. I work for it and you take care of it.
Muñoz: Yes, It's all right
Sánchez: It's ok, we will make it. So I came .. ..This house cost me nine hundred pesos.
Muñoz: Nine hundred... was that dollars?
Sánchez: And so I bought it to those people. Because later on when I was living here he said, I sell it to you!!! When I asked my wife what do you think... .As I just told you!
Muñoz: What were the Babbitts' names that were living here?
Sánchez: What's that? No, no, the king Babbitts.
Muñoz: The king Babbitt, ah!. And this was your only first house?
Sánchez: This one, yes
Muñoz: But as a child...
Sánchez: No!!! do you know what? That after a while it burned.!!!
Muñoz: Oh!!!
Sánchez: It burned! You did not know that ?
Muñoz: Oh! Yes, it was last year.
Sánchez: Yes!
Muñoz: Yes, yes
Sánchez: It burned and then lots of Christian people helped me and they the house. It did not cost me anything, they .
Muñoz: Ah!
Muñoz: Ok, let's go back to the memories of when you had.. ..right after you came here and you were 16 and worked in the forest and lived there, in the ...
Sánchez: When I arrived to the forest
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: There in the field of California, because my brother went to bring his family and came all the way here. And from here he wrote me. We were three.
Muñoz: Si.
Sánchez: The oldest was called Pascual and he brought Libradita because her mom died. My mother had already died. He said. Now she is alone and I will go and get her.! He said: you guys stay here. We stayed in California, but since he had a friend who lived here, that worked here, he told him: do not go and so Pascual stayed here. So he wrote to us to California and my brother said you guys come here because we will be here. So we came here, while in the field, there working, cutting wood So there was where I taught myself to fall trees, I did not know.
Muñoz: Yes... and when you were living there in the field, which was the name of the company you were working for?
Sánchez: Yes!!! The company had a small train that ran where the ones working and it had a caboose on the back part.
Muñoz: Aha!
Sánchez: They were transporting people in the caboose, when... the people who wanted to come to the village.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: We used to come for the 4th of July the parties and everything. The people who wanted to come during that time.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: Instead of being of the company.
Muñoz: Oh, then that way they transported then to town when they needed to buy?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: To buy groceries? The caboose used to bring them? To buy the food?
Sánchez: To buy the food?
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: We used to buy the food there!!! I am telling you that there was a commissary !
Muñoz: Oh, ok!
Sánchez: Up there in the forest there was a man that had a commissary, a store that had everything. We used to go there regardless if we had money or not. Everyone had food because there were some coupons that we used to buy. The cheapest was from 5 pesos, 10 and 20 was the biggest. And the company gave us those tickets there, and they deducted that money from our paychecks. They used to give them us no matter if we had money or not, but the paycheck day they deducted them. And they had stamps.
Muñoz: Oh, yes
Sánchez: So you went to the commissary.. .and asked for this or that, and they took the stamps, the price.
Muñoz: Oh! Yes, they were doing it that way
Sánchez: That way was it, that way they do not and we used to eat and there was everything. But that way we used to buy it.
Muñoz: Oh!!!... And how old were you when you came down here?
Sánchez: Oh! I was 21
Muñoz: 21 years old?
Sánchez: Yes
Muñoz: And then is when you came
Sánchez: Yes because I crossed when I was 16
Muñoz: When you were 16, you worked there
Sánchez: I worked because the law was that you had to be 21. They gave you jobs, younger than that they did not give you any jobs. But we had the need to work for living!
Sánchez: Yes, . I was very young, I was 16. I used to say
Muñoz: So, in other words you never went to school here in Flagstaff? You never went?
Sánchez: No... I never went. Where I went to.. .as I tell you, to California.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: In California, when I was there I went to school. But they put too many ladies so we could say hi to them . That how... right?
Muñoz: Sure!
Sánchez: They were seated there and the guys here. So I went and ... but we had to say hi to them in English ah! . So, They were laughing about what I was saying. And I felt embarrassed and I never went back.
Muñoz: You never went back
Sánchez: I never went back
Muñoz: Oh!
Muñoz: And that was the time when you went to California or went for a few years to live there?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: No, in California, when you went there, you went for a while?
Sánchez: I in California in the city of Ontario, California
Muñoz: Ontario?
Sánchez: Ontario, California, close to Los Angeles
Muñoz: Oh!
Muñoz: And for how long did you live there?
Sánchez: There, when we had something . Los Angeles, we used to take a bus, the buses that ran through the road!, we used to catch the bus. We used to be in the corners of the road! And there we used to take the bus. One used to pay to go to Los Angeles... We used to go for something to Los Angeles and it was pretty nice. There was a Mexican plaza.
Muñoz: Yes.
Sánchez: A plaza that had everything, all the Mexican food. We used to go there and to buy and eat. Since we came back in the same bus to where we lived.
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: That is the way it was
Sánchez: In California... yes
Muñoz: Did you guys go to visit relatives there? Is that what the story is saying?
Sánchez: We went for what?
Muñoz: To visit your family there?
Sánchez: No!, to Mexico ?
Muñoz: No, to California
Sánchez: No, to visit my family only when my brother .. ..my brother who died was called Jose. He was older than me, and he lived in Santa Ana, California. I used to visit him there, and when he got sick I used to visit him often to see how he was until he died. I never stopped seeing him. Until the last time I went that was when he was going to say goodbye to this world and died. So after we buried him and everything, then I left and came here. And then I could not.. ..when my sister- in- law died I could not go .. .no, no, I could not go, she was the woman of my brother. Her name was Isabel, Isabel .
Muñoz: I am going to ask about the activities that were going on here in Flagstaff. You were saying that you were coming by train for the 4th of July were there dancing, or what was here on the 4th of July?
Sánchez: My wife?
Muñoz: Yes, when you were coming here on the 4th of July what types of activities were here?
Sánchez: No, my wife's name was Teresa, here name was than this woman.
Muñoz: Yes, yes
Sánchez: Because I did not have any other woman besides her.
Muñoz: Sure!!
Muñoz: Ok, I will ask now, when you were coming by train from work...
Sánchez: I... I was working in the forest and she was living here... I used to come on Saturdays. Because there was food up there in the forest. There was a commissary and there was a cafeteria! You paid for eating and I was there all week and on Saturday I used to come to see her there. I arrived here and she was living in a small house, there close to the cemetery.
Muñoz: I see
Sánchez: And she was so scared of the dead!.. ..no, no but I did not have, she with the windows that were like that covered.
Muñoz: Do you remember about the activities that were going on here in Flagstaff, such as dancing, parties, celebrations, what types of celebrations were going on in Flagstaff?
Sánchez: No, no, there was nothing.
Muñoz: There was nothing? There were no dancing parties either?
Sánchez: No... there was nothing
Muñoz: Don't you remember?
Sánchez: there was nothing, nothing like that.
Muñoz: And the meals you ate for example, here in the house when you and your wife came, did you used to bring groceries, or her...
Sánchez: Oh no, when I used to come here, the groceries... there was a commissary here too, from the same company. One went as I am telling you, and got food and you brought them . The pay day they deduct one . But food was never missing.! Anyway one always ate.
Sánchez: Yes, yes
Muñoz: And what types of food?, flour ...
Sánchez: So, the big one here ... was the "Dolan", Mr. Dolan. I still remember the house, a big house. And he, when we... he saw that we had no jobs, he told the secretary he had in his office, he asked her to give all the employees 10 pesos a week! 10 pesos to buy the food. With 10 pesos we had for the whole week.
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: Everything was so cheap!
Muñoz: Everything, yes
Sánchez: We used to go there and ask for 10 pesos. They did not give us everything on the pay day, but it helped.
Muñoz: Did you know the Chantes, the people who worked for the "Dolan"?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: The Chantes, do you remember that they also had some houses there next to the saw mill? When the forest was on ...
Sánchez: [conversation not clear]
Muñoz: Yes, yes
Sánchez: And then me, from the years that I worked, as I tell you, I received pension.
Muñoz: Pension yes,
Sánchez: And I still have it! That pension.
Muñoz: Very good... they take care of you guys.
Sánchez: They still
Muñoz: Yes
Muñoz: What kind of.... For example, were there cars during that time?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Were there cars or trucks, or were you guys walking? What kind of transportation was during that time?
Sánchez: Well, no.. .there was nothing like that. They were transporting themselves by train.
Muñoz: By train
Sánchez: The train brought the things, and , and there they were unloading everything.
Muñoz: Yes, and you did not have either...
Sánchez: There were no trucks like there are now , no, no.
Muñoz: What did you use? To go to town?
Sánchez: What were we using? To go to town?
Muñoz: Yes!
Sánchez: I am telling you that we were in the forest and there was a small train from the same company that ran through the forest, and it carried a caboose and it was transporting us when we needed to come to town. We used to come and stay for some days, what we wanted, to have fun. We had food there. There was a commissary, but we came here just to enjoy the trip.
Muñoz: To travel around.
Sánchez: Like in the 4th of July, when that man was killed. His name was Juan.
Muñoz: Who killed him ?
Sánchez: Another Mexican killed him...
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: Because he, according according to the story
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: You know what, they like to play cards.
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: So he carne ... and later I learned that it was like that. This guy was a guy that used to stay with me in the forest , but I knew him. He was bad! Mexican! But he was good and we got along. We were living together there in the [chante], in the same place. And that guy came for the 4th of July. And since there was going to be a card game, that guy Juan was going to play cards, and he played. They were playing "alburis", that is how they call it. So he was walking, someone was holding him and I . So he told him... he said: so go and bet cheap guy. Because he was betting $ 0.25 only! So the other guy told him... no Sr., when I have the cards I never tell you how much... if $0.5 ok! Whatever you want. I am telling you he said. He was not getting out when the other one had the cards he bet 2 pesos, that he wanted. So he told him... I already told you to go out son of...! Ah!!!! He said, listen, watch out your language. He said . Well! He left! And so... they were selling guns here. It was not like now, it does not mean that they were going to get a license . No, you just went, brought the money, bought... 50 or 40, whatever the price of the gun was.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: He bought it, he went and got the gun. And he came and told him... come here and he grabbed him. When he was crossing the street, right there in that corner where that ranch is here. When he was passing by he told him .... He told him... where are you taking me guy? he hit him and made him fall!. And then he took out the .... And ta ta ta!!!
Muñoz: And he hit him ?
Sánchez: He killed him!!!
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: And he fell dead, he fell there in the corner. When he was dying, since he was drunk!. So there was liquor, there were no bars. The liquor was made illegally. Many women had that business. they made it.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: Well, so the man went out when he fell. I think he hit him, and he was dying...
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: And then that guy said.. .ah!!!! You are not going to die far. you don't die. And then he got there and pulled back his hair and then the Mexican police came out. A policeman... I do not remember his name , yes I do not remember. He came out and told him, ah!!! Do no not kill him!!! So he pulled out his gun and pointed him, no, no, no!!! so he killed him. And as I am telling you, he was dying and collapsed in the corner.
Starting Side 2
[Confusing the beginning of side 2 of the tape]
Sánchez: And he left!!! And other thing!!! Since we were roommates at work, he wrote me. He was working at Grantis. He wrote me and said. Here I am working at Grantis. I told him: you know what? Because the government said that they were giving 2000 pesos for his capture. So I told him... are you do it? Go to Mexico, because you know what ? that they are paying 2000 pesos if someone says where you are. I . I do not give any man for money, no, no. And so, he left.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: But later they knew it and the police went to Mexico and he could not pass. There he said... they say that the police. To the American police from here right. here. But later he surrendered to the Mexican government and said: there is a government here too. If it is possible for what I did, They can kill me here immediately! They can kill me, they can kill me but I will not go to the Unites States, only dead I will go there. I will not go there alive. they could not bring him. So they surrendered to the government and they asked where the dead guy was from, and they said he was from Guadalajara, and the capital of Guadalajara is Escobedo, and they went to Escobedo to look for him, to see the dead guy something. And the dead guy had killed someone as he was killed, there it was written, that he had money for United States. Because he has killed someone, he had killed the one there he pulled back his hair, as they did with his. They said the same thing. Later a guy was going out, he talked. The same!!
Muñoz: And that was the first crime here in Flagstaff?
Sánchez: Yes, here, it happened here, here in Flag...
Muñoz: Here in Flag
Sánchez: And I was, as I am telling you, we were coming from the forest to see the place. We were in the hotel sleeping and I went out... we were coming with other friends. So I went out and said: I will go for a watermelon, to buy a watermelon. So I saw a lot of people there and I told a guy there, there is a dead guy and I do not know... maybe is someone from the field. Let's go and see And we went to see and . He was working in the field too, he was killed there.
Muñoz: Oh!
Sánchez: I went through all that. I saw it, I saw it.
Muñoz: Yes... and do you remember the police name that was....
Sánchez: That it was nothing
Muñoz: It was nothing
Sánchez: A few and a few things there
Muñoz: Were there too many Mexicans here ?
Sánchez: Yes, there were always Mexicans
Muñoz: Always!
Muñoz: And all of them were working in the forest?
Sánchez: In the forest, everyone worked in the forest. I am telling you that there were positions there.
Muñoz: Yes, yes. And they were only working as if . Land like com?
Sánchez: Yes! There was not too much .. .there was not much, there was a ranch and it had chickens and all that! And vegetables ! and there chicken or whatever you wanted. And I used to sell, sell chickens.
Muñoz: So you had chickens and ... goats and . Did not you guys have that? The chicken to produce eggs and the goats to give milk? Ah?
Sánchez: No, there was nothing,
Muñoz: No?
Sánchez: There was nothing, there was nothing like that there. We used to go to the store and bring the stuff.
Muñoz: You were talking about the liquor, that it was prohibited to make it right?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: The liquor.
Sánchez: The drink?
Muñoz: The drink that...
Sánchez: Oh the liquor! There was no liquor, there was not, it was prohibited. When I came here the bars were opened, but some time later the law closed the bars and so many people made it at home. The knew how to make it!
Muñoz: Illegally
Sánchez: They called it Jay Miller . They used to sell it in some houses and people who liked it used to go and buy it there. That is why people were still drunk.
Muñoz: Ah!
Sánchez: But they were drinking that drink. But it was good, it was well made.
Muñoz: It was well made?
Sánchez: It was well made
Muñoz: Did they make it where all the Mexicans were?
Sánchez: Yes!
Muñoz: And for example, do you remember that Mexicans were always living in the South of Flagstaff? Do you remember that Mexicans were living close to this side of the rail track?
Sánchez: No... the people... there was few people, it was not like now. There was not too many Mexicans
Muñoz: There were not too many...
Sánchez: Yes! There were some
Muñoz: Just a few
Muñoz: And everyone knew each other? The Mexicans knew each other?
Sánchez: Yes, yes, almost... everybody. Very few do not, but yes everyone knew each other. We were not friends but we knew each other.
Muñoz: Did you gather together to have...
Sánchez: No... some of us were friends and got together to go somewhere, if there was a party or something, because we had to there were doing something and we used to go and see. We used to pay to see. We used to gather with two or three friends. Because not all of us were friends . Not all of us.
Muñoz: No... just acquaintances
Sánchez: It was like that during that time that was the way.
Muñoz: Well, during that time, what kinds of doctors were here?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Doctors!
Sánchez: Doctors?
Muñoz: Yes! Were there any doctors during that time?
Sánchez: Yes! There were. But there was.... One doctor. I met one.
Muñoz: You met one?
Sánchez: One doctor, I do not remember . I met him very well, And he got to know me too.
Muñoz: Yes! Ah!
Sánchez: Because... when something happened to you were went to see him. We paid him...
Muñoz: And where was that doctor, on the North or in this side?
Sánchez: No! he was here in the rail track
Muñoz: In that rail track? In what side of the rail track, in the other side of the rail track or in this side
Sánchez: He had his house on that side.
Muñoz: Oh! There
Sánchez: And we used to go when we were feeling... when we needed...
Muñoz: Yes
Muñoz: And do you remember if they were healers?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Do you remember if there were healers during that time? healers? You do not know what healers mean?
Sánchez: Schools?
Muñoz: No, healers, the ones who come to your house to heal you, masseurs o...
Sánchez: Ah!!! Masseurs
Muñoz: masseurs o healers
Sánchez: Yes, masseurs, well no... I do not remember. No there were not too many.
Muñoz: There were not during that time
Sánchez: Like now that we have people that come... no , but not during that time.
Muñoz: You do not remember when you came from Mexico either...
Sánchez: Someone who knew about the same Mexicans...
Muñoz: Yes exactly that I was going Sánchez
Muñoz: Yes they went with those Sánchez
Muñoz: No, no, no. And they could help.
Sánchez: Because there have always been people that even though they do not have they know how to do it. If you have a broken leg or arm. There were people who knew, not too many, few people knew
Muñoz: Here in Flagstaff few people knew it right?
Sánchez: One knew when . We used to go their house and . And we paid them. It was like that during that time. . Now is so different!
Muñoz: Oh yes!!! It has changed too much hasn't it? Yes, it has changed. You have seen all the changes in the world
Sánchez: Oh! Yes
Muñoz: Oh!
Muñoz: Yes, and the other question I was going to ask... for example, the church, were there many churches here?
Sánchez: No, only the Guadalupe Church
Muñoz: Oh, you remember that one
Sánchez: Oh, yes
Sánchez: And after a while it was ... little by little there was a Baptist Church. I used to go to that church, the Baptist.
Muñoz: Do you remember when...
Sánchez: I did not go the Catholic Church
Muñoz: No, you did not go?
Sánchez: No, I used to go to the Baptist Church. I had those beliefs.
Muñoz: Baptist Ah!!
Sánchez: I used to go there and there were Mexican preachers. Mexican Pastors that explained everything regarding God's word, the Scripture. There they preaching everything, in Spanish...
Muñoz: In Spanish?
Sánchez: And in English too
Muñoz: They were coming from Mexico? The pastors were coming from Mexico too? To ?
Sánchez: What's that ?
Muñoz: That if those Mexican pastors came from Mexico?
Sánchez: Pastors?
Muñoz: Yes, were they from Mexico?
Sánchez: Well, some of them were from Mexico and other were not. Some of them were from here. They were not from Mexico, they were from here.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: But there was an American who had two kids. He spoke really good Spanish. He spoke Spanish like us.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: He explained everything, and all his sons spoke Spanish.
Muñoz: Yes and this river, has it always been on this side of your house?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: The river that is on this side of the house, has it always been flowing by here, by the village? The river in Flag... the river that is right here on the other side of your house?
Sánchez: ?
Muñoz: No, no, that there has always been water flowing by there. Do you remember if the river has overflowed ? Has it ever hit you? I am talking about the river, the water, that water that flows by... this river.
Sánchez: Where?
Muñoz: On this side of the house
Sánchez: No! well just the river, the river that goes by. Like when it snows too much there. It melts there from the mountains that are here runs to here, [and]on the other side of the mountain goes to some other part.
Muñoz: Yes!
Sánchez: Everything that is on the San Francisco Peaks, everything on that side comes here and comes through this river.
Muñoz: And it never...
Sánchez: Sometimes it gets bigger when the snow melts. It comes up to here.
Muñoz: Oh! Yes too much. And the people that you... The Babbitts, the ones you bought this house from, this was the only house on this side?
Sánchez: Yes! It has always been in this side. It has never been moved to any other place. The has been here. But as I am telling you, it burned once...
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: So . And the people helped, everyone! Everyone! . It did not cost me anything. They helped me with my house.
Muñoz: Oh! What nice people
Sánchez: New, because the other one burned. Only my cloth did not burn.
Muñoz: Oh! Very good
Sánchez: No... but everything was full of smoke . We took the cloth to clean and they fix it.
Muñoz: Yes... I am going to ask you if you remember about the Revolution in Mexico? Do you remember that?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Revolución? Revolution
Sánchez: Revolución?
Muñoz: Yes, in Mexico, do you remember?
Sánchez: Oh! In Mexico. When I came, there was too much revolution, very dangerous. That is why my brother told my mom: he told her: Aunt! He called her Aunt because he was not his son. His mother was someone else, because his father was married twice. He was like half brother of mine, but he was the oldest! So he told her aunt! I am leaving to... we did not say United States, we said the North. I am leaving to the North, I am taking the guys, what do you say? She said oh! It hurts me a lot my mother said. But... I prefer if you take them I will suffer their absence but I do not suffer thinking that they will stay here and will be killed. Because they killed people.
Muñoz: Just to kill them?
Sánchez: Like a dog, like animals
Muñoz: Yes, I believe that!
Sánchez: I saw it.
Muñoz: How sad, how sad
Sánchez: Uuuuu!!! It happened so many years ago! I was, when I crossed as I tell you, I was . But it was awful, awful. You could hear it. I woke up once because I needed to feed the animals there, because one worked with animals.
Muñoz: Yes
Sánchez: I know that, I have done it. those animals are since we harvest the corn field big corn fields with lots of corn, corn and pumpkins, and beans. He harvested everything, I know how to do it. Wheat!! The wheat when you take it and you bring it to the mill to grind flour, and then you have flour. You take your animals, we took the burros full of wheat and took them to the mill and they gave you flour for the amount of wheat you had. Then they weighed the flour.
Muñoz: It was a lot of work.
Sánchez: And then you had flour. If you wanted to make. Yes , the tortillas of...
Muñoz: Flour tortillas?
Sánchez: Flour, made from pure corn
Muñoz: Pure corn, yes.
Sánchez: There were mills! And now there are too many mills.. ..you can go whenever you want for your warm tortillas, no matter at what time. Now the mills to make tortillas are more modern and different, compared to those years. In those years the women in .
Muñoz: It was a lot of work... a lot of work
Mu??oz: Let me ask you, during the time that you remember, when you were living here, if someone died, who buried them? If there were deaths for example when you came here, were there funerals and who buried them?
Sánchez: Funerals, the dead?
Muñoz: No, funerals of the death
Sánchez: Oh! Of the death! No.. .well some people died. Many times then... but then whoever wanted the autopsy, which mean to clean the body right? The autopsy. Well if you had money . Three days you had to bury someone. After three days, the law forced you... because the body went bad. .
Muñoz: Here in Flagstaff
Sánchez: Here they took them to bury them.
Muñoz: Interesting ah!
Sánchez:
Muñoz: Was there Mass for the dead in your religion?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Like there are now, there are Mass for the dead, during that time the pastor also came to you house?
Sánchez:
Muñoz: No, no the pastor of your religion. Did he used to come to the dead's house to pray? You do not remember?
Muñoz: No... there was not that.
Muñoz: There was not?
Sánchez: No, no, no. Now we have all that but not in those past years. What you are doing now is very modern!
Muñoz: Yes, no, but during that time.. .what I wanted to know is if during that time was also like that and how different it was from what it is now?
Sánchez: Very different!
Muñoz: Oh yes! Only three days they gave to a dead person? And where was the cemetery?
Sánchez: Where was what?
Muñoz: The cemetery, where did they bury the dead?
Sánchez: Ah! Bury the dead, it is where the cemetery is. There were two cemeteries, the Protestant and the Catholic, they are together. Still.
Muñoz: The same ? Still?
Sánchez: Yes, the same still. The ones who were not Catholic were buried in the cemetery on this side, and the other side were the Catholics, they buried them there.
Muñoz: Yes, yes, yes.
Muñoz: I thought it was different during that time, when you were younger. I thought there was one here on the hill.
Sánchez: Yes!
Muñoz: Was there that one in the hill?
Sánchez: The other one there!
Muñoz: And the other one was towards the other side! Uh!
Sánchez: It was very different. If you were not Catholic, they never buried you in the Catholic cemetery. They buried you in the cemetery.
Muñoz: Did you see a lot of weddings?
Sánchez: What's that?
Muñoz: Did you see lots of weddings and celebrated lots of weddings?
Sánchez: Well, I believe this... that there is only one God
Muñoz: Oh yes!
Sánchez: And that is the only God for everything. Catholics and Protestants are the same thing.
Muñoz: Its is true, that is true
Sánchez: Because both of them believe in God. The only thing is that Catholics have a big difference? [They make everything into idolatry.] Idolatry is when for example they put paper or silk Saints, and people kneel to pray or in that As the Word of God says, they have eyes but they do not see, they have mouth but they do not eat... and they do not talk... they are a dead being. how are you going to believe in something if it is made with hands of sinners! The Saint they are adoring is not legal! No! there is no more than one God.
Muñoz: Let me ask you this question, the question is... if you remember if there were any weddings, if there were big weddings here in Flagstaff, do you remember the weddings?
Sánchez: Yes!
Muñoz: And the weddings, how did they prepare them, do you remember?
Sánchez: The weddings?
Muñoz: The weddings
Sánchez: The weddings were when for example someone was getting married right?
Muñoz: Yes...
Sánchez: Some people have money and have a dancing party, they pay the musicians so they can play. When they get married, right, there are some who get married but do not do anything. Some of them cannot afford it or just do not like it.
Muñoz: That is true.
Sánchez: That is the way the weddings were before here. The ones who have money go and pay for the music and a big wedding, food and everything. And the poor cannot.
Muñoz: No!
Muñoz: Do you remember about music... I was going to ask you if you remember if there were very many musicians here in town, when they gathered to play music. You do not remember that? Did not you meet musicians that played music?
Sánchez: Oh! the guitar?
Muñoz: The guitar and everything!
Sánchez: Oh yes!!! A lot, I met lots of guys. One paid them to play the guitar and come to your house. Come and play and you were paid. They used to sing and play songs to you. Yes we used that a lot during those years. They used to play whenever you wanted, for a newborn birth or any other thing.
Muñoz: I think we finished with the questions...
Sánchez: And it is still like that...
Muñoz: Well, I have to thank you for your time and yours stories and for participating with me. Thank you Mr. Guadalupe!