quote:That's because you are an uncaring a-hole who doesnt give a damn about keltic tiger's sister and the many many other women who find their selves in her exact position. Your belief in mythical religion clouds your judgement and paints the world in two colors...black and white

Kettle meet mr pot! A person who claims to CARE about women, but wants to keep them in the dark by not giving them the information that is required by law!

You don't really care about these women. You care about a cause!!!! If you cared about these women, there is NOWAY you can sit there and say that they should not be given the information. Noway.

quote:Kettle meet mr pot! A person who claims to CARE about women, but wants to keep them in the dark by not giving them the information that is required by law!

You don't really care about these women. You care about a cause!!!! If you cared about these women, there is NOWAY you can sit there and say that they should not be given the information. Noway.

Again see my above post, everyone has the right to all the information out there.

When I go in for a procedure...you can bet your arse I ask all the questions I need to ask. And having known more then a few women who have had abortions you can bet your arse they are doing the same thing.

quote:catholictiger, so, it is a "tough issue" for you. What an amazing comment. It must be nice to be that sheltered. I am talking to the rape counselor who helped my sister & the family this wkend, & I'll make sure he knows that this particular type of hell is just a "tough issue but the way it is".

all I'm trying to say is I understand that women are effected by this and many times women are put in very difficult situations.

quote: As to ".... in the eyes of God": Must be nice as well to get that message directly from God.

I get it from 2000 years of Catholic tradition from scripture and the like.

quote:My sister, myself, our parents, her husband, we all must have been asleep when he spoke to us, because our beliefs are different.

all I'm doing is repeating what the Church teaches and what the church has taught since its dawn and was even taught by Christ himself. Read it for yourself. Also see

Jeremiah

quote:"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations

so sense the time of the prophets God shows that life begins at conception (even though they had no idea of that concept.)

don't forget that John the Baptist Leapt in her mothers womb when she came into the presence of Christ.

some of the earliest Church fathers see abortion as wrong.

I could go on and on. But its simple the long standing teaching of the Catholic Church and even the Jewish religion before it was that abortion is wrong, and that life began before a baby took her first breath.

quote:Just quit trying to force your beliefs on others, or at the very least, quit trying to protray them as if you are Moses coming down from The Mount with all the answers.

All I'm doing is restating Catholic Teaching.

quote:Your beliefs do not necessarily translate to the almighty truth for the rest of the world.

no but I have faith that the what the Catholic Church teaches is the truth, may not be a fully developed version of the truth but it is the truth. I also have very good reason to what the Catholic Church teaches is the truth, based on scripture and tradition.

again while it may have looked that way when I said in the eyes of God that its like God talked to me but no all I'm doing is restating Catholic Teaching.

one other thing God kinda makes it obvious in Deuteronomy when he says. THOU SHALL NOT KILL, and the killing of innocent human beings would fit under that.

quote:one other thing God kinda makes it obvious in Deuteronomy when he says. THOU SHALL NOT KILL, and the killing of innocent human beings would fit under that.

You make this so easy.

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the first born of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle." (Exodus 12:29)

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill very woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Moses - Numbers 31:17)

"And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destoyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city we left none to remain:" (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)

"And the LORD said unto me, 'Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon'.......And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city." (Deuteronomy 3:2-6)

"This is what the LORD says: Now go and smite Amalek, andutterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and arse ....'And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword." (1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished...... Their bows also shall dash the young men topieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children." (Isaiah 13:15-18)

"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities... For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts..." (Isaiah 14:21-22)

"And the Lord said unto him,... And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children,and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:4-6)

"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Jesus - Revelation 2:22-23)

And yet in the very same bible...lots of ordered hits by god.

So I guess its ok to cherry pick which innocents get whacked according to the bible.

its called hermeneutics. You must look into what the intent of the author is in this situation and then go look at each of the passages. Just because God killed off people doesn't mean he is for the killing of innocent human beings.

some of the passages you give are what we call dark passages of scripture

quote:its called hermeneutics. You must look into what the intent of the author is in this situation and then go look at each of the passages. Just because God killed off people doesn't mean he is for the killing of innocent human beings.

some of the passages you give are what we call dark passages of scripture

LINK

but why does this matter to you. You constantly monk our faith and call us stupid and not in the real world.

lol...so you can cherry pick the good passages of your book, but we are suppose to ignore the not so good ones. What a great religion...go out and party hardy all weekend...go confess on monday and you are good to go. And you wonder why people roll their eyes at you.

And I have never called the faithful stupid. Out of touch certainly, but never stupid. Everyone is allowed to believe whatever they want to believe and I have little quibble with that until you try to force your beliefs on others. Which you certainly are attempting to do.

quote:lol...so you can cherry pick the good passages of your book, but we are suppose to ignore the not so good ones. What a great religion...go out and party hardy all weekend...go confess on monday and you are good to go. And you wonder why people roll their eyes at you.

and you completely missed the point of what I just said. We ignore no part of scripture but sometimes the intent of the author is very ambiguous and therefore not easy to understand what he is trying to get at. Its not us cherry picking certain parts of scripture. We believe that the intent of the author is without error. That can mean alot of things the author could be telling story that isn't historically true to make a point about the love of God for his chosen people or something. I've never dived into hermeneutics. But it is a legitiment process in all ambiguous literature.

just a question example

no ambiguous passage the ball is red.

ambiguous passage the girl thinks the ball is red. What do you mean by she thinks the ball is red. You must go behind the intent of the author to find out why he/she said that. When its not clear. This is present throughout all of scripture and it is very rarely non ambiguous.

My only personal interest in pro choice rights is obvious. When anti abortionists attack innocent females who have been raped/impregnated, I get involved. All the rest I leave to each individual's beliefs & conscious. But the phrase "... what the Catholic Church teaches is the truth" gives me pause, too. It's easy to ask you what the Church teaches about priest child abusers & how best....for the child...to handle it". But that is too easy. I'll just say that the Catholic Church is comprised of human beings, and all humans are far from perfect. So, for those who interpret & preach the truth as professed by the Church......why is that version to be accepted by all of us, when it obviously has flaws. Possibly in its position on abortion?????

I am a Catholic by choice, as I converted early in my marriage after being raised as a Baptist. There is a lot bout the Church that attracts me to it. But I do not accept it as perfect, by any means. And I certainly do not accept its teachings blindly. I have seen first hand, in several different areas, the human imperfections amongst the priesthood, at several levels. At the same time, I have been blessed to know many many beautiful God loving priests & lay people in the Church. But, bottom line, I don't need the multiple million dollar church in Thibodaux to talk to God. I've found him pretty much every time I need to talk, regardless where I mite be physically.

ok do you believe that the sacred scripture is inspired. Do you believe that God himself came down into the world became flesh and died for our sins.

my whole point is that Christ is the word of God and he spoke all the time to the apostles who heard the truth preached by Jesus Christ all the time. Some of them wrote the scriptures. Then they also talked to people who also wrote stuff down and so on and so forth. Some of the earliest Christians wrote about stuff and some of the earliest Christians who had connections to the apostles wrote that abortion is wrong. So someone who probably talked the apostles and the apostles who got their belief straight from the mouth of God says abortion is wrong.

a couple quick examples the didace which is believed to written by the apostles but wasn't inspired.

You shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill what is begotten.

so the same guys who are connected to Christ say abortion is wrong.

Barnabas even claims that it is wrong to kill a baby by abortion.

I could go on and on about people who have a close connection or within a couple hundred years of Christ who say abortion is wrong.

While yes I have faith that God has said abortion is wrong, I also have alot of reason to back up what I say. I accept nothing out of blind faith.

but the teaching of the Catholic Church doesn't come from man alone it comes from the mouth of God. EVERYTHING we teach is based in revelation or the preaching of Jesus Christ told in the sacred scriptures and sacred tradition.

quote:"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished...... Their bows also shall dash the young men topieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children." (Isaiah 13:15-18)

Oh you are such a prize tap dancer. Your future career as a politician is guaranteed.

I am fairly certain the intent in the above scripture is anything but ambiguous.

quote:We ignore no part of scripture but sometimes the intent of the author is very ambiguous and therefore not easy to understand what he is trying to get at.

How come his part is ambiguous, even though it specifically states to kill all the men, women, children, and the fruit of the womb, but what you quote is not ambiguous and open for discussion. Quite frankly, any god who is supposed to be benevolent would not allow such a horrific thing as rape of an innocent person to happen much less for that victim to have to carry the product of that rape. I have absolutely no faith in and have no desire to know a god like that.

Stop wasting your time with an issue you can't expect even the slightest big of movement on. But if you insist on continuing, for the love of christ, stop using the freaking bible as a support leg in your argument. It literally does nothing but retard your argument 100%.