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While you may not agree that certain rights come from God, our forefathers do not seem to agree with that point of view. That is why they express "We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights."

That said, I am a fundametalist baptist, and I believe in individual soul liberty.:)

Well, let's clarify. I believe rights come from God. However, I believe that even those who do not believe in God must also believe that we possess inalienable rights. Since I have no right to govern other people, a just legal system may only be established between us by consent, and since they are not going to agree with my that rights come from God, it's important to me to emphasize that we have rights by virtue of self-ownership whether or not there is a God. Meanwhile, those of us who know about God

--J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

A few years of not attending church and the indoctrination starts wearing off.

A few more years and the oppressiveness of it all finally wears off.

Then, you truly do feel free.

But... it isn't the Garden of Eden thing... it starts much earlier in the story.

--

One day there was this kid who was really bored because he like never dies and stuff... so he decided to make some new toys to play with.

The neighbbor kid next door sees what he is doing and comes over and picks up one of the toys.

This makes the kid really mad, because now his toy isn't special any more... so, he decides to take it out on the toy for ever and ever.

Amen.

--

To me, the problem is in chapter zero... not chapter one.

I have two boys. One is 4 years old, the other is 11 months old.

My four year old *knows* that if he takes a toy out to play with, and his little brother is around, then the little one may want to play with the toy. So, he doesn't play with certain toys while his little brother is around. (This is mostly with books that the little one wants to eat.)

So... he knows something... and acts appropriately. To do otherwise would be stupid.

But... this "God" that knows everything creates everything knowing it is gonna be screwed up?

That isn't just stupid... it is psychotic.

And if the answer as to why he did it knowing it would go down the way it is all about choice... then fine. I choose not to believe.

But... even if it were all real... when someone says to me "do this or else" I find only one response is appropriate.

F*ck off.

He really, really hasn't made a compelling argument. Instead, I'm more interested in the options... thank you very much.