Interview with Winona Miller, 1997

THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: State Capitol / Stonemasons
INTERVIEW WITH: Winona Miller (Tape 1 of 1)
DATE: 2 June 1997
PLACE: Austin, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe
TAPE I, Side 1
W: ...Cheri Wolfe and it's June 2, 1997. I'm in Austin, Texas, talking with Mrs. Henry Miller about her Scottish ancestors who worked on the Texas State Capitol.
Mrs. Miller, where and when were you born? [Sorry, I had that.]
M: I was born at what - Double Horn, Texas, in Burnet County, which is actually near Marble Falls.
W: Uh-huh.
M: On August 30, 1921.
W: And your maiden name?
M: Williamson.
W: Okay. And your first name?
M: Winona. W-i-n-o-n-a.
W: Okay.
M: And my mother's maiden name was Riddell.
W: R-i-d-d-e-l-l.
M: Uh-huh.
W: Okay. And it was the Riddells, in your family, who worked on...MILLER, Winona 2
M: Right.
W: On the capitol. Can you tell me about that? I guess, maybe, first talk about when the Riddells came to this country.
M: Well, I know they came...let's...uh, after 1877, and before 1882.
W: Okay.
M: Somewhere. I would imagine about 1880, somewhere in there.
W: And who came?
M: My grandfather was Robert D. Riddell; he was born in 1858, in Glasgow, Scotland. And he died in - I believe they lived in Llano County - in 1932. And he was married to Jeanette Orr, and she was born in 1858 and passed away in 1932. She was also born in Glasgow, Scotland.
W: So do you think they married before they...?
M: Yeah. Uh-huh. Right.
W: They immigrated as a couple?
M: Right. Right.
W: Did they come right to Llano County?
M: No. They...in Spicewood, Texas. But then eventually, my grandparents, the way I understand it, did move to Llano County. But the brother and his wife, you know, stayed in Spicewood, Texas. He was a professor, who was my great-uncle.MILLER, Winona 3
W: Okay. So this would have been...
M: This was William D. Riddell.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Also born in Glasgow, Scotland, in 1852, and passed away in 1911. And I do know that their son, their only son, was born in Scotland in 1854, and he passed away in 1926. No, no, that can't be...how could that be? He was born in 1877 in Scotland, and he passed away in 1953.
W: Here in Texas?
M: Yes. In Marble Falls.
W: Okay.
M: And it's their son that was the sheriff of Burnet County for so many years - Wallace Riddell.
W: ...[laughter]
M: [laughter]
W: First, William's wife was...?
M: William's wife was Mary Orr - O double r. And she was ...that's William's wife - that would be my great-uncle and aunt.
W: Uh-huh. So you were talking about double first cousins then?
M: Yes, yes.
W: And so do you know if these two couples came to Texas together?
M: Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah.MILLER, Winona 4
W: The four of them immigrated?
M: Oh, yeah. Plus the grandparents; plus the Riddell... the parents on the Riddell side.
W: Oh! And what were their names?
M: Uh, you know, I don't know. I have a... This is a family tree. I have a Riddell - a Johnston, Jean - that must have been the grandmother. You know, the mother of these...
W: ...
M: Yeah. Because her maiden name would have been Johnston. Yeah.
W: Okay.
M: And she was born in, of course, in Scotland, in 1825, and she passed away in 1885.
W: And her husband was your great-grandfather?
M: Yeah, but I don't have the name.
W: You don't have his name? Okay.
M: Unless it's somewhere else. But she's the one that died here. And her husband went back, because he was so homesick.
W: But he...you said your great-grandfather and somebody - and another family member - went back to Scotland?
M: No, no, just the great-grand...what would be my great-grandfather, because he got homesick.
W: Uh-huh.MILLER, Winona 5
M: And the grandmother didn't go. And before he returned, well, she got suddenly ill and died, and she's buried here, down around...well, actually at Haney Flat, which is close to Spicewood also.
W: Uh-huh. Did he go back to Glasgow, do you know?
M: Uh, I guess so. That's where they...because he had other children there.
W: I see. (here I'll just put it on pause here for a second.)
M: The lady that's in the nursing home.
W: Okay. So this is a...you've gotten a Christmas card here from your cousin?
M: Yeah, Grace Herbort [sp?], who's daddy was my mother's double cousin - this lady that's in the nursing home.
W: Uh-huh.
M: She says, "Hello Winona, Thanks for the Christmas greeting. It's always nice to be remembered. I'm glad you're planning to visit Scotland. That was always my Dad's wish, but he never had the chance. He was born in Glasgow, but I heard Edinburgh mentioned quite often too. Our great-grandparents came over with our grandparents, but the great-grandfather got so homesick for Scotland he went back for a visit. The great-grandmother did not go and while he was gone she suddenly became ill and died. She's buried at Haney Flats Cemetery - no headstone. The great-grandfather MILLER, Winona 6
never returned to Texas. Our grandparents were licensed stone/rock masons and were two of the eighty-plus masons that worked on the building of the capitol." And this goes on to talk about somebody she met, but I don't think that would be of any...
W: Doesn't have anything to do with the capitol, or your ancestors or...
M: No. Well. "There are many Riddells in Canada and northeast United States. I don't know them. I did correspond with one of Nettie's sons as he wrote to me about her death, but I've lost trace. The great-grandparents had one daughter, Mary, and several sons. My granddad was William D. Riddell, yours was Robert D." Well, I don't know if she means both of these was Robert D...
W: Maybe...you mean they both had middle initials D?
M: That's right, it is right. Uh, "Other...others was Robert. Oh, others was...sons were James, John, Neal, Andrew - my memory is sketchy." Anyway, this cousin found, she says, "Nettie - that's a cousin who lives in Canada - found us by going to the Burnet County Courthouse for information. When someone told her the Sheriff was my mother's, Mother showed her some old pictures. She recognized her parents and her brother, Ross Riddell, so enjoyed her for ten years. Whatever they call their government buildings - archives. And so, maybe you will MILLER, Winona 7
find some records of some Orrs. Stick me in your pocket and we will have a fun looking." [laughter] But...
W: Okay. Now, so I guess when your great-grandparents came over, they were probably already...I mean they weren't ...your great-grandfather wouldn't have been working. I mean he was born in the '20s.
M: You know, I don't know.
W: He would have been in his fifties. It sounds like he...do you know whether he, too, was a stone-mason?
M: Oh, yeah.
W: Your great-grandfather?
M: Yeah.
W: He was, too.
M: Yeah. And his brother. Yeah.
W: Oh, I mean their parents.
M: Oh, I doubt it.
W: Okay.
M: I don't know, because...oh, no. Well, let's see, it seems like that this would be my great-great grandmother that... You know, that's kind of funny. No, it'd be...if that's the one, well, if she was born in '25 and died in 1885, well, this great-grandfather must have gone back pretty soon.
W: After they got here?
M: Yeah. Because he had already gone back when she died MILLER, Winona 8
and she died, it says, in '85, 1885.
W: Uh-huh.
M: So I don't know. All I know is that they settled in Spicewood. Now, I don't know if that was immediately.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And I've heard my mother talk about that people sort of made fun of them - they had nothing - that they lived...they put shucks in mattresses to sleep on, instead of cotton.
W: Uh-huh. Oh, I've heard of that. That's pretty common - corn shuck mattresses.
M: Yeah. Yeah.
W: Well, did they make fun of them because of their accent or...?
M: Well, I don't know. I don't...I remember my grandmother. 'Course my grandfather died when my mother was like, I guess, about nine years old. But she had a real heavy accent. She died when...I think in 193... I was about eleven years old when my grandmother died. But she outlived him from, I believe, 1905 to... She died, I believe, in '32.
W: Oh, so it was a good long while.
M: Yeah. She died in '32 and he died in 1908. Yeah.
W: Do you know if either of the brothers worked on any buildings or did any construction work in Spicewood?
M: No, not that I know of. My mother's uncle who came MILLER, Winona 9
here, you know, this Robert - no, William...
W: William.
M: William. He was a professor. Now, don't ask me why he was a professor. That's him - you can see that older man - he's a teacher there.
W: Okay. And we're looking at a book called The Valley Between The Colorado and Pedernales, by the Spicewood Area Historical Focus Group.
M: Uh-huh. That's Perdenales. [Texan pronunciation]
W: Oh, I'm sorry, Perdenales. And it's a photo of a 1898 Spicewood school.
M: Uh-huh.
W: So he taught.
M: Uh-huh. He was a professor. And he also taught music.
W: Well, there are several Riddells here.
M: Yeah.
W: I'm sure you saw them. Yeah.
M: Oh, yeah, yeah. Actually they are my mother's siblings.
W: Oh, okay.
M: I don't know. This Jeannie Riddell Crownover is my mother's oldest sister; she's the first one that was born here in 1885.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And then she also has a brother - I guess it's a MILLER, Winona 10
brother, James Riddell...was...he was the oldest boy; he's also on here. But I really haven't been able to pick, you know, pick out who's who.
W: Uh-huh.
M: But this is...he came here in...
W: Okay. So...and he's the one in the back row directly to the left of the door as you're looking at the photo.
M: Yeah.
W: And you said that he taught. He was a musician?
M: Yeah, he taught music. In fact, he taught my mother music. She played the piano. not...she played the organ. And now if you could talk to this Grace Herbort [sp?] that's in Marble Falls - this was her grandfather. She might could, you know, if she...she could probably give you more information, if she's, you know, mentally alert.
W: Uh-huh. Okay. Well, I will contact her. And I'm curious - did you hear any other stories about them when they first got here, other than people made fun of them?
M: Well, not too much. My grandparents had, I guess, like eight children. And this professor here, well, they only had this one boy, who's Wallace. You know, the sheriff's father. And they took one of my mother's sisters, because they only had that one child to raise.
W: Uh-huh. To raise?
M: And it turned out that she was retarded.MILLER, Winona 11
W: Oh.
M: But they kept her until the grandfather died, and then my grandmother she had to take her back because she wasn't really a very nice person. You know. She was like a child.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Other than that, that's about... I don't think, you know, I really don't know anything else. They got...
W: So they lived in Spicewood. Do you know where? Exactly?
M: Well, I think they lived...all I know is they lived on a place...they bought the Fowler place.
W: Uh-huh. F-o-w-l-e-r?
M: Uh-huh. Yeah.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Yeah.
W: Kind of as tenant farmers or...
M: I think...I imagine, yeah, 'cause they didn't own any land. Or my grandparents... Here's a picture of Grace Herbort, the lady that's in the nursing home. She was also a school teacher.
W: Oh, I see. Right there on the right?
M: Yeah.
W: This is the 1931 Shovel Mountain School.
M: Yeah.
W: In the same book.MILLER, Winona 12
M: Uh-huh.
W: Uh.
M: Yeah, this is the same book. So, like I told you, I don't know too much.
W: Is the Fowler place still there? Is there...are there any buildings? Or is the home where the Riddells lived...?
M: I would - I don't know. I don't know.
W: So they came over...were...didn't have anything?
M: No.
W: I mean they really came...
M: No, they didn't have anything. So as far...there was six of them. My grandparents, and it would be my great-uncle and aunt, and their child.
W: So, seven.
M: Yeah.
W: Three couples and...
M: Yeah, right, and a baby.
W: Uh-huh.
M: I don't know how. Now, if, you know, she probably knows how old that her father was when they came here, but that I don't know.
W: Uh-huh. Do you know... Then, when they came to work at the capitol, did the families just move to Austin or did the men just come?
M: I don't know. I don't know. Oh, I think they all MILLER, Winona 13
came.
W: You do?
M: I'm pretty sure. I never heard of them coming separately.
W: Uh-huh.
M: But I don't know if they went to Spicewood or that...I don't know. All I've always heard, you know, they worked on the capitol when they came here.
W: Uh-huh. Do you...when the workers were building the capitol some of them stayed out around Burnet, around...to work on the stone.
M: Oh, sure enough?
W: Out around the quarry - in something called Wilkeville. Did you ever hear of that or...?
M: Unh-uh. Never have. And I was raised in Marble Falls. Granite Mountain is all I ever heard of.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And it's just about, oh, a mile-and-a-half out of Marble Falls. That's, you know, where the granite came from.
W: Yeah, I was just up there. Uh-huh. The other day. Do you have any idea of what they did? On the capitol? Specifically. I mean, do you know if they did quarrying or finish work?
M: Other...oh, I guess they worked here, you know, in MILLER, Winona 14
Austin. I don't think they worked up there at the quarry.
W: Uh-huh.
M: No, I think they worked here; I always heard they...I'm pretty sure that they didn't work up there. I don't know. I really don't know.
W: Uh-huh. And then, after the capitol, did they ever talk about going to the dedication? You know, after the capitol was finished.
M: Never heard of it. I don't know.
W: Did you hear how long they worked on it? Okay.
M: I told you I didn't know too much.
W: Well, you know, it's been a long time ago.
M: [laughter]
W: So, what you do know is still really valuable.
M: Yeah.
W: So, after their work on the capitol, did they go back to Spicewood then? To the Fowler place.
M: Yeah. Well, yeah. That's where my parents - my grandparents - lived until they moved...went to Llano County.
W: And these are your maternal grandparents?
M: Yeah. Yeah.
W: Or was this William...?
M: Yeah. Yeah.
W: Okay. MILLER, Winona 15
M: And I don't know. My grandfather, they farmed. And I guess he wasn't educated like his brother. You know, his brother was a professor.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And they farmed. I can remember my mother talking about going to school, that they had to walk about at least three miles. And that she was so afraid of the wild cattle, the longhorn cattle. But I guess the cattle were as afraid as she...as scared as she was. You know.
W: [laughter] Uh-huh.
M: And she said they would...the boys would maybe kill a hog on the way to school, a wild hog. And they'd take it and they'd roast it at school.
W: Wow!
M: They'd cook it. Yeah. I remember her telling that.
W: Uh-huh. Where was the farm that your mother grew up on?
M: I think it was a Smith - probably a Smith ranch in Llano County, as well as I remember.
W: Uh-huh. So...
M: But I think when they were in Spicewood, they lived in what they called the Fowler place.
W: Okay. And then at some point your grandparents, you were just saying, went to Llano and...
M: Uh-huh.MILLER, Winona 16
W: Do you know if they...did they own land or they were working...?
M: No, they didn't.
W: Still working for somebody else?
M: They didn't own any land. So, that's about all I know.
W: Do you know if either of the Riddell brothers had any other work doing stone-cutting? Other than the capitol?
M: That's all I know of, all I ever heard of. And then, I guess, my grandfather went to farming and his brother was a teacher, you know.
W: Uh-huh.
M: I guess all his life around Spicewood. Because it's different pages in here...
W: In this book "The Valley Between"?
M: Yeah, in this book.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Oh, here's seventy-four...I tried to...seventy-four is where they - this is a picture - this has nothing to do with it, but my grandfather on my daddy's side he had a well-drilling machine and...
W: Oh, Uh-huh, and here's a picture of it.
M: Yeah. Yeah. But I don't, you know...
W: John Williamson.
M: That was my daddy's father, my grandfather.
W: Uh-huh. MILLER, Winona 17
M: This is really interesting to me, because I know of so many of these people.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Oh, here's where they dedicated this marker. And...
W: Rockville Historical Marker.
M: Rockvale. Rockvale.
W: Uh-huh. And...
M: That's why...that's where my grandparents and his brother and his wife - they're all buried at Rockvale. I tried to find the pictures where it had, you know, their birthdays, but I couldn't find them. I have some here somewhere.
W: Uh, but then...
M: But they're all buried there at Spicewood at Rockvale.
W: Okay, that's what I was going to ask - where Rockvale is.
M: Uh-huh. Yeah. It's about, oh, I don't know, about two miles from the post office in Spicewood.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And that's where the dedication was. And we did attend the dedication of the...that historical marker.
W: Did any of the other...other brothers and sisters come over from Scotland?
M: No. None. No. But there seemed to be...they had this one sister named Mary, you know, I noticed in this ChristmasMILLER, Winona 18
card...
W: Uh-huh.
M: And several brothers. But that's why the grandfather -it'd be my great-grandfather - went back. He got so homesick.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Of course he never...I guess he planned to come, to return, but she died so he didn't come back - the wife died.
W: Uh-huh. Do you have any family photos that, you know, show either William or Robert as...?
M: Other than this picture?
W: Yeah. This one school house picture.
M: That's the only one I have, yeah. I don't have any more.
W: Do you have anything that came down from them? You know, I was wondering if they brought their own tools with them when they came over? Do you have any idea?
M: I don't know. I don't have any idea. No, I sure don't.
W: Okay. And the woman in the nursing home, again, is...?
M: Grace...
W: Uh-huh.
M: Riddell Herbort. H-e-r-b-o-r-t. I think it's H-e-r-b-o-r-t, Herbort. I could look in here and see. I'm pretty sure that's the way it's spelled.MILLER, Winona 19
W: I might try to contact her and see if, you know, she remembers...
M: I don't know; I just don't know. She was in a nursing home in Burnet, and then I heard that they moved her to Marble Falls. Her son lives near Marble Falls. In fact, he's a pilot for, you know, for the state. He's Wallace Herbort. I don't know what his other name is. Oh, Wallace Riddell Herbort, that's his name, Wallace Riddell Herbort. Well, that's the son of Grace. It is H-e-r-b-o-r-t.
W: That's an unusual spelling. With the o. Don't you think?
M: I don't know.
W: And is it - the name of it - Marble Falls Nursing Home?
M: I don't know. There may be...I think there's more than one there. So I don't know. I just don't know.
W: Okay. And you think he lives in Marble Falls as well?
M: He lives in Shovel Mountain. I know where he lives.
W: Okay.
M: And he's in the Shovel Mountain...he's in the Marble Falls telephone book.
W: Okay. Maybe I'll just give him a call.
M: Wallace Riddell Herbort. Probably have to call him at night because, I guess, you know, he flies - he's a pilot.
W: Uh-huh.
M: But the...he has a son that's, oh, seventeen years old MILLER, Winona 20
so he might be at home. At least, you know, if you called at night even if the...he could probably tell you where his grandmother is.
W: Uh-huh.
M: 'Cause she raised this kid. So I know he'd know where his grandmother is.
W: So you know that your grandmother had a strong accent.
M: Oh, yeah.
W: But she spoke English.
M: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
W: Uh-huh. Do you remember anything else about her?
M: You know, not too much. I was...seems like I should remember more. I know she had to depend on her children - she had nothing. She moved - she and this retarded daughter - moved to Marble Falls, and, of course, there was no such thing as Social Security then, or Old Age Pension, and she had to depend on the boys. You know for, I guess, money and to pay her rent. And I guess they'd bring her food, you know, from the farm and all.
W: Uh-huh. Did any of your...well, I guess in your...no, in your parents' generation, did any of them go on to be stone-masons?
M: No.
W: Or do any kind of work like that?
M: No. They were...they were all farmers. And ranchers -MILLER, Winona 21
farmers and ranchers.
W: Uh-huh. And you don't know if they built the home, like on the Smith place, or on the Fowler place?
M: Oh, no. They were just renting.
W: Uh-huh.
M: No, they didn't build any. As far as I know. I don't guess they ever built anything, as far as I know.
W: So your...did...your grandfather, I guess, then died while he was still a farmer on the Smith place?
M: Oh, yeah.
W: Is that right?
M: Oh, yeah. He was...he died very young. What was he - let me see...well...
W: I guess he would have been - what? - in his fifties?
M: He was older - no - that's her. He was...he was born in '54, so that'd be forty-six - he was fifty-four years old.
W: Um.
M: I guess. 1908 - forty-six - I think he was fifty-four.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And most of my mother's brothers died very young.
W: Was there, do you know or ever hear anybody say, was there much of a Scotish community there? Were there other Scots in the area?
M: You know, I don't know. I never heard of anybody else. MILLER, Winona 22
So I don't know. But you would think if there was... She says here that there was eighty-plus that came, you know, from Scotland, to work on the capitol.
W: Well, that was later. That was in the 1880s that they came as a group.
M: Uh-huh. Oh, what do you mean? Over there? If they were...
W: No, here. I was just wondering how William and Robert got to Spicewood and if there were other Scottish people there that maybe...
M: I think they landed in Galveston. I've heard that.
W: Uh-huh.
M: But I don't know. They were two of the eighty-plus that worked on the building...on building the capitol.
W: Let me just put this on; let me get that on. You were saying that your mother's oldest sister was born in 1882.
M: Uh-huh.
W: In Spicewood?
M: Yes.
W: So definitely they, your family, was already here when these other Scottish stonemasons came over in 1886.
M: Oh, yeah, yeah. Because she was born here.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And so I don't... Now, this Grace Herbort, she would probably know, if she remembers, you know, how old her daddyMILLER, Winona 23
was. He was born in '78 I believe.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And so I don't know if he was two years old or, well, he could have been over four years old. Because this other - my mother's oldest sister - was born here in 1882.
W: Uh-huh.
M: So somewhere in that five-year period, is when they, you know, got here.
W: Uh-huh.
M: But like I said, this lady, she might know how old her daddy...
W: Yes.
M: She probably wouldn't know, if she can't remember how old her father was.
W: Did you hear why in the world they decided to pick up like that and come to America?
M: You know, isn't that bad that I don't know. I have another...I have a first cousin that's older than I am, but I don't know how much she'd know. She lives in Llano County. I don't know. She's...well, she's eighty-seven. It was her mother that was my mother's oldest sister - the first one that was born here.
W: Uh-huh. What was her name?
M: Her name is Lois Bruns.
W: That's your cousin?MILLER, Winona 24
M: Yeah.
W: And your mother's oldest sister?
M: My mother's oldest sister's child.
W: Right. What was your mother's oldest sister's name?
M: Jeannie.
W: Jeannie.
M: Jeannie Crownover?
W: Uh-huh.
M: And this is Lois Crownover, and she married Martin Bruns. And she lives in Llano County.
W: B-r-u-n-s?
M: Yeah. I think. Let's see. I think I have her telephone number. If she wanted....she's the one that did this.
W: Oh, did this genealogy?
M: Yeah. And she wanted...see what we could find out when we went to Scotland. But we didn't know...we just looked in the phone book, and we were with - you know, on a tour. And we didn't... Let's see, I'm trying to see if that's sure enough how he spells - let's see - B-r-u-n-s - yeah.
W: Okay. Well, thanks. I might give her a call.
M: Do you want her telephone number?
W: Sure.
M: I think I have it.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.MILLER, Winona 25
TAPE I, SIDE 2.
M: ...her address is - you ready to take it?
W: Yes.
M: Lois B-r-u-n-s, Rt 8, Box 190, Llano, Texas.
W: Uh-huh.
M: 78643.
W: Okay. I'd also like to ask you about one of your other illustrious ancestors - the sheriff. If you wouldn't mind coming over and telling me about him. Okay. And his name again.
M: ...find it. His name was Wallace William Riddell.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And he was born in Spicewood, Texas, in 1899, and he died in 1978. And I think that he was...served the longest of anyone in Texas, as sheriff of Burnet County.
W: And his parents were?
M: His father was the one that was born in Scotland. His father was William Henry Riddell, and he was born in Scotland in 1877, and he died in Marble Falls, in Burnet County, in 1953.
W: Was he...did he work with stone too? Or what did he do for a living? Do you know?
M: Well, he farmed and ranched, and at one time he had a gin. And they had a little grocery store in Shovel Mountain, and also a cotton gin. This was Wallace's father.MILLER, Winona 26
W: William Henry. And did he own his own land? Do you know?
M: Yeah, he did. In fact, they donated land for Shovel Mountain schoolhouse. It's in this book here.
W: Oh.
M: Wallace's father did?
W: Uh-huh. And then was it his uncle or his father who was the teacher? I'm sorry.
M: It was his grandfather.
W: Okay.
M: Yeah, his grandfather.
W: William Henry's grandfather?
M: Uh, Wallace William Riddell and his father was William Henry Riddell and the grandfather was William D. Riddell.
W: Okay.
M: And he worked on the capitol. William D. Was the grandfather of Wallace.
W: Uh-huh. I was just trying to get the schoolteacher and donating land for the school and I was wondering...
M: Yeah, that was the son of the guy that came from Scotland, yeah.
W: Uh-huh. But I guess he probably didn't have anything to do with the capitol. he would have been... Well, if he was born in 187...William Henry.
M: Oh, no, he was just a baby.MILLER, Winona 27
W: He was just a baby. Yeah.
M: He probably wasn't over five years old.
W: Okay.
M: At the most.
W: Okay. Tell me about Wallace and his career.
M: Well, uh, he farmed and he ranched and he also, the way I remember it, he had cattle trucks where he, you know, transported cattle.
W: Uh-huh. To market you mean?
M: Yeah, to market, yeah. That was before he was sheriff.
W: Uh-huh. Where did they sell the cattle? From Burnet and Llano?
M: You know, I don't know. I don't know.
W: Would it be Fort Worth or...?
M: Maybe, maybe, I don't know about that. I just know that he did have cattle trucks.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And he was also...he was a rodeo man; he roped.
W: Really?
M: Yeah, he roped. Yeah, he roped.
W: Did he travel with the rodeo?
M: No. I guess just, you know, around; you know, surrounding places.
W: In the local ones?
M: Yeah, local, yeah.MILLER, Winona 28
W: Uh-huh. Like calf rope or did he do trick roping or ...?
M: Oh, I guess calf roping, yeah. Well, I tell you, I think that's about all I know.
W: You never met him or...
M: Oh, yeah, sure.
W: Oh, you did?
M: Sure, yeah, oh, sure.
W: Well, he must have been very well liked in the community if he was elected that many times.
M: Oh, yeah, he was. Yeah, he had opponents but he never...no one...he always, you know, won the election. He ...I think that he became sheriff in 19...I think 1939. And I don't know if he was still in office when he died. I don't know. Now this Grace could tell you that, that's his sister - the one that's in the nursing home.
W: Did they ever have any, you know, violent episodes up there? I mean was he ever involved in...?
M: Well, I don't know. Not that I know of. I don't know. He was a good sheriff though; everybody liked him.
W: Why do you think so? I mean, that's an awfully long time for a politician...
M: I don't know. I guess he was honest. And I remember that anytime there was ever a funeral, as far as I know, in MILLER, Winona 29
Burnet County, he was always there himself to direct traffic.
W: Um.
M: He was there.
W: Uh-huh.
M: That's one thing I remember about him. And his wife - they lived there in Burnet, they lived...I guess the jail was - and the house for the sheriff to live - was all in one building. I suppose...
W: I saw that. It's right on the square.
M: And she kept, uh-huh...and his wife...
W: Did she do the cooking?
M: She did. Essie was her name. Essie - she was from Spicewood also.
W: She was...maybe she was part of the reason he was re-elected so many times.
M: Maybe.
W: People might have liked her too.
M: Oh, she was a fine person.
W: Uh-huh.
M: In fact, their daughter is - oh, let's see - what is she? I guess she's the...anyway, she's held some kind of office for many years there in the courthouse - Mrs. Wallace's daughter.
W: Uh-huh. MILLER, Winona 30
M: Tax collector, I guess.
W: Tax collector. Uh-huh. What's her name?
M: Her name is...I wouldn't know if I...her married name is Modena. Let's see. Ah, oh, you know, I don't have that.
W: Was Modena her first name? Or her married...?
M: Oh, it's...Modena was her...Modena Riddell. But I don't know her married name.
W: Uh-huh.
M: I might have it here. Let's see on...[inaudible] it might be here. Of course, she's...her picture's also here. Ah - Daisy Bell - her name is C-u-r-i-n-g-t-o-n. Modena Riddell Curington.
W: Uh-huh.
M: She's the...I guess the tax collector or something. She's held this for many years there in the courthouse; she's in the courthouse.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And she could tell you more about her daddy if you happen to be around in Burnet.
W: And you were saying Wallace's sister...you were telling the story earlier, I think, something about Wallace's sister? Is that right?
M: Well, she's the one that's in the nursing home.
W: Oh, okay.MILLER, Winona 31
M: Yeah, Grace - Grace Riddell Herbort.
W: Yes. Uh-huh.
M: And she's about, I think she's...this is just...actually this is just...you know, my parents' family tree. Or maybe it does say when she was born - yeah, no, it don't. I wonder why? I don't know why it doesn't have her birthday on here.
W: Well, it must have been nice for William and Robert to meet all those other workers from Scotland.
M: I guess so. I don't know.
W: You know, if their father was that homesick, they were probably homesick too.
M: Uh-huh. So I don't know. It doesn't have...190...I think, though, Grace was probably born about 1902, so that would make...I think she's in her nineties. She's the one that's in the nursing home in Marble Falls.
W: Uh-huh. But you don't know if they ever kept in touch with any of the other workers? On the capitol.
M: No, I don't know.
W: [inaudible]...proud to have worked on the capitol?
M: That I don't know.
W: Was your family proud of them? Or was it a big deal in your family at all - that they...?
M: All I ever heard was that they came here, and they worked on the capitol. I guess that's why they...I guess MILLER, Winona 32
they came because they had work, you know. I know they were all, you know, honest hard-working people.
W: Well, I think that's all I can think to ask you.
M: Well, I'm sorry, but I told you I didn't know too much.
W: Uh-huh. Well, you...you actually helped a lot, and you told me other people to talk with.
M: Yeah.
W: And I really appreciate it and I'll follow up.
M: These two - they're older than I am - that they might know more than I do. I don't know.
W: Uh-huh. Okay. Well, I'll check.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.

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THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: State Capitol / Stonemasons
INTERVIEW WITH: Winona Miller (Tape 1 of 1)
DATE: 2 June 1997
PLACE: Austin, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe
TAPE I, Side 1
W: ...Cheri Wolfe and it's June 2, 1997. I'm in Austin, Texas, talking with Mrs. Henry Miller about her Scottish ancestors who worked on the Texas State Capitol.
Mrs. Miller, where and when were you born? [Sorry, I had that.]
M: I was born at what - Double Horn, Texas, in Burnet County, which is actually near Marble Falls.
W: Uh-huh.
M: On August 30, 1921.
W: And your maiden name?
M: Williamson.
W: Okay. And your first name?
M: Winona. W-i-n-o-n-a.
W: Okay.
M: And my mother's maiden name was Riddell.
W: R-i-d-d-e-l-l.
M: Uh-huh.
W: Okay. And it was the Riddells, in your family, who worked on...MILLER, Winona 2
M: Right.
W: On the capitol. Can you tell me about that? I guess, maybe, first talk about when the Riddells came to this country.
M: Well, I know they came...let's...uh, after 1877, and before 1882.
W: Okay.
M: Somewhere. I would imagine about 1880, somewhere in there.
W: And who came?
M: My grandfather was Robert D. Riddell; he was born in 1858, in Glasgow, Scotland. And he died in - I believe they lived in Llano County - in 1932. And he was married to Jeanette Orr, and she was born in 1858 and passed away in 1932. She was also born in Glasgow, Scotland.
W: So do you think they married before they...?
M: Yeah. Uh-huh. Right.
W: They immigrated as a couple?
M: Right. Right.
W: Did they come right to Llano County?
M: No. They...in Spicewood, Texas. But then eventually, my grandparents, the way I understand it, did move to Llano County. But the brother and his wife, you know, stayed in Spicewood, Texas. He was a professor, who was my great-uncle.MILLER, Winona 3
W: Okay. So this would have been...
M: This was William D. Riddell.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Also born in Glasgow, Scotland, in 1852, and passed away in 1911. And I do know that their son, their only son, was born in Scotland in 1854, and he passed away in 1926. No, no, that can't be...how could that be? He was born in 1877 in Scotland, and he passed away in 1953.
W: Here in Texas?
M: Yes. In Marble Falls.
W: Okay.
M: And it's their son that was the sheriff of Burnet County for so many years - Wallace Riddell.
W: ...[laughter]
M: [laughter]
W: First, William's wife was...?
M: William's wife was Mary Orr - O double r. And she was ...that's William's wife - that would be my great-uncle and aunt.
W: Uh-huh. So you were talking about double first cousins then?
M: Yes, yes.
W: And so do you know if these two couples came to Texas together?
M: Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah.MILLER, Winona 4
W: The four of them immigrated?
M: Oh, yeah. Plus the grandparents; plus the Riddell... the parents on the Riddell side.
W: Oh! And what were their names?
M: Uh, you know, I don't know. I have a... This is a family tree. I have a Riddell - a Johnston, Jean - that must have been the grandmother. You know, the mother of these...
W: ...
M: Yeah. Because her maiden name would have been Johnston. Yeah.
W: Okay.
M: And she was born in, of course, in Scotland, in 1825, and she passed away in 1885.
W: And her husband was your great-grandfather?
M: Yeah, but I don't have the name.
W: You don't have his name? Okay.
M: Unless it's somewhere else. But she's the one that died here. And her husband went back, because he was so homesick.
W: But he...you said your great-grandfather and somebody - and another family member - went back to Scotland?
M: No, no, just the great-grand...what would be my great-grandfather, because he got homesick.
W: Uh-huh.MILLER, Winona 5
M: And the grandmother didn't go. And before he returned, well, she got suddenly ill and died, and she's buried here, down around...well, actually at Haney Flat, which is close to Spicewood also.
W: Uh-huh. Did he go back to Glasgow, do you know?
M: Uh, I guess so. That's where they...because he had other children there.
W: I see. (here I'll just put it on pause here for a second.)
M: The lady that's in the nursing home.
W: Okay. So this is a...you've gotten a Christmas card here from your cousin?
M: Yeah, Grace Herbort [sp?], who's daddy was my mother's double cousin - this lady that's in the nursing home.
W: Uh-huh.
M: She says, "Hello Winona, Thanks for the Christmas greeting. It's always nice to be remembered. I'm glad you're planning to visit Scotland. That was always my Dad's wish, but he never had the chance. He was born in Glasgow, but I heard Edinburgh mentioned quite often too. Our great-grandparents came over with our grandparents, but the great-grandfather got so homesick for Scotland he went back for a visit. The great-grandmother did not go and while he was gone she suddenly became ill and died. She's buried at Haney Flats Cemetery - no headstone. The great-grandfather MILLER, Winona 6
never returned to Texas. Our grandparents were licensed stone/rock masons and were two of the eighty-plus masons that worked on the building of the capitol." And this goes on to talk about somebody she met, but I don't think that would be of any...
W: Doesn't have anything to do with the capitol, or your ancestors or...
M: No. Well. "There are many Riddells in Canada and northeast United States. I don't know them. I did correspond with one of Nettie's sons as he wrote to me about her death, but I've lost trace. The great-grandparents had one daughter, Mary, and several sons. My granddad was William D. Riddell, yours was Robert D." Well, I don't know if she means both of these was Robert D...
W: Maybe...you mean they both had middle initials D?
M: That's right, it is right. Uh, "Other...others was Robert. Oh, others was...sons were James, John, Neal, Andrew - my memory is sketchy." Anyway, this cousin found, she says, "Nettie - that's a cousin who lives in Canada - found us by going to the Burnet County Courthouse for information. When someone told her the Sheriff was my mother's, Mother showed her some old pictures. She recognized her parents and her brother, Ross Riddell, so enjoyed her for ten years. Whatever they call their government buildings - archives. And so, maybe you will MILLER, Winona 7
find some records of some Orrs. Stick me in your pocket and we will have a fun looking." [laughter] But...
W: Okay. Now, so I guess when your great-grandparents came over, they were probably already...I mean they weren't ...your great-grandfather wouldn't have been working. I mean he was born in the '20s.
M: You know, I don't know.
W: He would have been in his fifties. It sounds like he...do you know whether he, too, was a stone-mason?
M: Oh, yeah.
W: Your great-grandfather?
M: Yeah.
W: He was, too.
M: Yeah. And his brother. Yeah.
W: Oh, I mean their parents.
M: Oh, I doubt it.
W: Okay.
M: I don't know, because...oh, no. Well, let's see, it seems like that this would be my great-great grandmother that... You know, that's kind of funny. No, it'd be...if that's the one, well, if she was born in '25 and died in 1885, well, this great-grandfather must have gone back pretty soon.
W: After they got here?
M: Yeah. Because he had already gone back when she died MILLER, Winona 8
and she died, it says, in '85, 1885.
W: Uh-huh.
M: So I don't know. All I know is that they settled in Spicewood. Now, I don't know if that was immediately.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And I've heard my mother talk about that people sort of made fun of them - they had nothing - that they lived...they put shucks in mattresses to sleep on, instead of cotton.
W: Uh-huh. Oh, I've heard of that. That's pretty common - corn shuck mattresses.
M: Yeah. Yeah.
W: Well, did they make fun of them because of their accent or...?
M: Well, I don't know. I don't...I remember my grandmother. 'Course my grandfather died when my mother was like, I guess, about nine years old. But she had a real heavy accent. She died when...I think in 193... I was about eleven years old when my grandmother died. But she outlived him from, I believe, 1905 to... She died, I believe, in '32.
W: Oh, so it was a good long while.
M: Yeah. She died in '32 and he died in 1908. Yeah.
W: Do you know if either of the brothers worked on any buildings or did any construction work in Spicewood?
M: No, not that I know of. My mother's uncle who came MILLER, Winona 9
here, you know, this Robert - no, William...
W: William.
M: William. He was a professor. Now, don't ask me why he was a professor. That's him - you can see that older man - he's a teacher there.
W: Okay. And we're looking at a book called The Valley Between The Colorado and Pedernales, by the Spicewood Area Historical Focus Group.
M: Uh-huh. That's Perdenales. [Texan pronunciation]
W: Oh, I'm sorry, Perdenales. And it's a photo of a 1898 Spicewood school.
M: Uh-huh.
W: So he taught.
M: Uh-huh. He was a professor. And he also taught music.
W: Well, there are several Riddells here.
M: Yeah.
W: I'm sure you saw them. Yeah.
M: Oh, yeah, yeah. Actually they are my mother's siblings.
W: Oh, okay.
M: I don't know. This Jeannie Riddell Crownover is my mother's oldest sister; she's the first one that was born here in 1885.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And then she also has a brother - I guess it's a MILLER, Winona 10
brother, James Riddell...was...he was the oldest boy; he's also on here. But I really haven't been able to pick, you know, pick out who's who.
W: Uh-huh.
M: But this is...he came here in...
W: Okay. So...and he's the one in the back row directly to the left of the door as you're looking at the photo.
M: Yeah.
W: And you said that he taught. He was a musician?
M: Yeah, he taught music. In fact, he taught my mother music. She played the piano. not...she played the organ. And now if you could talk to this Grace Herbort [sp?] that's in Marble Falls - this was her grandfather. She might could, you know, if she...she could probably give you more information, if she's, you know, mentally alert.
W: Uh-huh. Okay. Well, I will contact her. And I'm curious - did you hear any other stories about them when they first got here, other than people made fun of them?
M: Well, not too much. My grandparents had, I guess, like eight children. And this professor here, well, they only had this one boy, who's Wallace. You know, the sheriff's father. And they took one of my mother's sisters, because they only had that one child to raise.
W: Uh-huh. To raise?
M: And it turned out that she was retarded.MILLER, Winona 11
W: Oh.
M: But they kept her until the grandfather died, and then my grandmother she had to take her back because she wasn't really a very nice person. You know. She was like a child.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Other than that, that's about... I don't think, you know, I really don't know anything else. They got...
W: So they lived in Spicewood. Do you know where? Exactly?
M: Well, I think they lived...all I know is they lived on a place...they bought the Fowler place.
W: Uh-huh. F-o-w-l-e-r?
M: Uh-huh. Yeah.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Yeah.
W: Kind of as tenant farmers or...
M: I think...I imagine, yeah, 'cause they didn't own any land. Or my grandparents... Here's a picture of Grace Herbort, the lady that's in the nursing home. She was also a school teacher.
W: Oh, I see. Right there on the right?
M: Yeah.
W: This is the 1931 Shovel Mountain School.
M: Yeah.
W: In the same book.MILLER, Winona 12
M: Uh-huh.
W: Uh.
M: Yeah, this is the same book. So, like I told you, I don't know too much.
W: Is the Fowler place still there? Is there...are there any buildings? Or is the home where the Riddells lived...?
M: I would - I don't know. I don't know.
W: So they came over...were...didn't have anything?
M: No.
W: I mean they really came...
M: No, they didn't have anything. So as far...there was six of them. My grandparents, and it would be my great-uncle and aunt, and their child.
W: So, seven.
M: Yeah.
W: Three couples and...
M: Yeah, right, and a baby.
W: Uh-huh.
M: I don't know how. Now, if, you know, she probably knows how old that her father was when they came here, but that I don't know.
W: Uh-huh. Do you know... Then, when they came to work at the capitol, did the families just move to Austin or did the men just come?
M: I don't know. I don't know. Oh, I think they all MILLER, Winona 13
came.
W: You do?
M: I'm pretty sure. I never heard of them coming separately.
W: Uh-huh.
M: But I don't know if they went to Spicewood or that...I don't know. All I've always heard, you know, they worked on the capitol when they came here.
W: Uh-huh. Do you...when the workers were building the capitol some of them stayed out around Burnet, around...to work on the stone.
M: Oh, sure enough?
W: Out around the quarry - in something called Wilkeville. Did you ever hear of that or...?
M: Unh-uh. Never have. And I was raised in Marble Falls. Granite Mountain is all I ever heard of.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And it's just about, oh, a mile-and-a-half out of Marble Falls. That's, you know, where the granite came from.
W: Yeah, I was just up there. Uh-huh. The other day. Do you have any idea of what they did? On the capitol? Specifically. I mean, do you know if they did quarrying or finish work?
M: Other...oh, I guess they worked here, you know, in MILLER, Winona 14
Austin. I don't think they worked up there at the quarry.
W: Uh-huh.
M: No, I think they worked here; I always heard they...I'm pretty sure that they didn't work up there. I don't know. I really don't know.
W: Uh-huh. And then, after the capitol, did they ever talk about going to the dedication? You know, after the capitol was finished.
M: Never heard of it. I don't know.
W: Did you hear how long they worked on it? Okay.
M: I told you I didn't know too much.
W: Well, you know, it's been a long time ago.
M: [laughter]
W: So, what you do know is still really valuable.
M: Yeah.
W: So, after their work on the capitol, did they go back to Spicewood then? To the Fowler place.
M: Yeah. Well, yeah. That's where my parents - my grandparents - lived until they moved...went to Llano County.
W: And these are your maternal grandparents?
M: Yeah. Yeah.
W: Or was this William...?
M: Yeah. Yeah.
W: Okay. MILLER, Winona 15
M: And I don't know. My grandfather, they farmed. And I guess he wasn't educated like his brother. You know, his brother was a professor.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And they farmed. I can remember my mother talking about going to school, that they had to walk about at least three miles. And that she was so afraid of the wild cattle, the longhorn cattle. But I guess the cattle were as afraid as she...as scared as she was. You know.
W: [laughter] Uh-huh.
M: And she said they would...the boys would maybe kill a hog on the way to school, a wild hog. And they'd take it and they'd roast it at school.
W: Wow!
M: They'd cook it. Yeah. I remember her telling that.
W: Uh-huh. Where was the farm that your mother grew up on?
M: I think it was a Smith - probably a Smith ranch in Llano County, as well as I remember.
W: Uh-huh. So...
M: But I think when they were in Spicewood, they lived in what they called the Fowler place.
W: Okay. And then at some point your grandparents, you were just saying, went to Llano and...
M: Uh-huh.MILLER, Winona 16
W: Do you know if they...did they own land or they were working...?
M: No, they didn't.
W: Still working for somebody else?
M: They didn't own any land. So, that's about all I know.
W: Do you know if either of the Riddell brothers had any other work doing stone-cutting? Other than the capitol?
M: That's all I know of, all I ever heard of. And then, I guess, my grandfather went to farming and his brother was a teacher, you know.
W: Uh-huh.
M: I guess all his life around Spicewood. Because it's different pages in here...
W: In this book "The Valley Between"?
M: Yeah, in this book.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Oh, here's seventy-four...I tried to...seventy-four is where they - this is a picture - this has nothing to do with it, but my grandfather on my daddy's side he had a well-drilling machine and...
W: Oh, Uh-huh, and here's a picture of it.
M: Yeah. Yeah. But I don't, you know...
W: John Williamson.
M: That was my daddy's father, my grandfather.
W: Uh-huh. MILLER, Winona 17
M: This is really interesting to me, because I know of so many of these people.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Oh, here's where they dedicated this marker. And...
W: Rockville Historical Marker.
M: Rockvale. Rockvale.
W: Uh-huh. And...
M: That's why...that's where my grandparents and his brother and his wife - they're all buried at Rockvale. I tried to find the pictures where it had, you know, their birthdays, but I couldn't find them. I have some here somewhere.
W: Uh, but then...
M: But they're all buried there at Spicewood at Rockvale.
W: Okay, that's what I was going to ask - where Rockvale is.
M: Uh-huh. Yeah. It's about, oh, I don't know, about two miles from the post office in Spicewood.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And that's where the dedication was. And we did attend the dedication of the...that historical marker.
W: Did any of the other...other brothers and sisters come over from Scotland?
M: No. None. No. But there seemed to be...they had this one sister named Mary, you know, I noticed in this ChristmasMILLER, Winona 18
card...
W: Uh-huh.
M: And several brothers. But that's why the grandfather -it'd be my great-grandfather - went back. He got so homesick.
W: Uh-huh.
M: Of course he never...I guess he planned to come, to return, but she died so he didn't come back - the wife died.
W: Uh-huh. Do you have any family photos that, you know, show either William or Robert as...?
M: Other than this picture?
W: Yeah. This one school house picture.
M: That's the only one I have, yeah. I don't have any more.
W: Do you have anything that came down from them? You know, I was wondering if they brought their own tools with them when they came over? Do you have any idea?
M: I don't know. I don't have any idea. No, I sure don't.
W: Okay. And the woman in the nursing home, again, is...?
M: Grace...
W: Uh-huh.
M: Riddell Herbort. H-e-r-b-o-r-t. I think it's H-e-r-b-o-r-t, Herbort. I could look in here and see. I'm pretty sure that's the way it's spelled.MILLER, Winona 19
W: I might try to contact her and see if, you know, she remembers...
M: I don't know; I just don't know. She was in a nursing home in Burnet, and then I heard that they moved her to Marble Falls. Her son lives near Marble Falls. In fact, he's a pilot for, you know, for the state. He's Wallace Herbort. I don't know what his other name is. Oh, Wallace Riddell Herbort, that's his name, Wallace Riddell Herbort. Well, that's the son of Grace. It is H-e-r-b-o-r-t.
W: That's an unusual spelling. With the o. Don't you think?
M: I don't know.
W: And is it - the name of it - Marble Falls Nursing Home?
M: I don't know. There may be...I think there's more than one there. So I don't know. I just don't know.
W: Okay. And you think he lives in Marble Falls as well?
M: He lives in Shovel Mountain. I know where he lives.
W: Okay.
M: And he's in the Shovel Mountain...he's in the Marble Falls telephone book.
W: Okay. Maybe I'll just give him a call.
M: Wallace Riddell Herbort. Probably have to call him at night because, I guess, you know, he flies - he's a pilot.
W: Uh-huh.
M: But the...he has a son that's, oh, seventeen years old MILLER, Winona 20
so he might be at home. At least, you know, if you called at night even if the...he could probably tell you where his grandmother is.
W: Uh-huh.
M: 'Cause she raised this kid. So I know he'd know where his grandmother is.
W: So you know that your grandmother had a strong accent.
M: Oh, yeah.
W: But she spoke English.
M: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
W: Uh-huh. Do you remember anything else about her?
M: You know, not too much. I was...seems like I should remember more. I know she had to depend on her children - she had nothing. She moved - she and this retarded daughter - moved to Marble Falls, and, of course, there was no such thing as Social Security then, or Old Age Pension, and she had to depend on the boys. You know for, I guess, money and to pay her rent. And I guess they'd bring her food, you know, from the farm and all.
W: Uh-huh. Did any of your...well, I guess in your...no, in your parents' generation, did any of them go on to be stone-masons?
M: No.
W: Or do any kind of work like that?
M: No. They were...they were all farmers. And ranchers -MILLER, Winona 21
farmers and ranchers.
W: Uh-huh. And you don't know if they built the home, like on the Smith place, or on the Fowler place?
M: Oh, no. They were just renting.
W: Uh-huh.
M: No, they didn't build any. As far as I know. I don't guess they ever built anything, as far as I know.
W: So your...did...your grandfather, I guess, then died while he was still a farmer on the Smith place?
M: Oh, yeah.
W: Is that right?
M: Oh, yeah. He was...he died very young. What was he - let me see...well...
W: I guess he would have been - what? - in his fifties?
M: He was older - no - that's her. He was...he was born in '54, so that'd be forty-six - he was fifty-four years old.
W: Um.
M: I guess. 1908 - forty-six - I think he was fifty-four.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And most of my mother's brothers died very young.
W: Was there, do you know or ever hear anybody say, was there much of a Scotish community there? Were there other Scots in the area?
M: You know, I don't know. I never heard of anybody else. MILLER, Winona 22
So I don't know. But you would think if there was... She says here that there was eighty-plus that came, you know, from Scotland, to work on the capitol.
W: Well, that was later. That was in the 1880s that they came as a group.
M: Uh-huh. Oh, what do you mean? Over there? If they were...
W: No, here. I was just wondering how William and Robert got to Spicewood and if there were other Scottish people there that maybe...
M: I think they landed in Galveston. I've heard that.
W: Uh-huh.
M: But I don't know. They were two of the eighty-plus that worked on the building...on building the capitol.
W: Let me just put this on; let me get that on. You were saying that your mother's oldest sister was born in 1882.
M: Uh-huh.
W: In Spicewood?
M: Yes.
W: So definitely they, your family, was already here when these other Scottish stonemasons came over in 1886.
M: Oh, yeah, yeah. Because she was born here.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And so I don't... Now, this Grace Herbort, she would probably know, if she remembers, you know, how old her daddyMILLER, Winona 23
was. He was born in '78 I believe.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And so I don't know if he was two years old or, well, he could have been over four years old. Because this other - my mother's oldest sister - was born here in 1882.
W: Uh-huh.
M: So somewhere in that five-year period, is when they, you know, got here.
W: Uh-huh.
M: But like I said, this lady, she might know how old her daddy...
W: Yes.
M: She probably wouldn't know, if she can't remember how old her father was.
W: Did you hear why in the world they decided to pick up like that and come to America?
M: You know, isn't that bad that I don't know. I have another...I have a first cousin that's older than I am, but I don't know how much she'd know. She lives in Llano County. I don't know. She's...well, she's eighty-seven. It was her mother that was my mother's oldest sister - the first one that was born here.
W: Uh-huh. What was her name?
M: Her name is Lois Bruns.
W: That's your cousin?MILLER, Winona 24
M: Yeah.
W: And your mother's oldest sister?
M: My mother's oldest sister's child.
W: Right. What was your mother's oldest sister's name?
M: Jeannie.
W: Jeannie.
M: Jeannie Crownover?
W: Uh-huh.
M: And this is Lois Crownover, and she married Martin Bruns. And she lives in Llano County.
W: B-r-u-n-s?
M: Yeah. I think. Let's see. I think I have her telephone number. If she wanted....she's the one that did this.
W: Oh, did this genealogy?
M: Yeah. And she wanted...see what we could find out when we went to Scotland. But we didn't know...we just looked in the phone book, and we were with - you know, on a tour. And we didn't... Let's see, I'm trying to see if that's sure enough how he spells - let's see - B-r-u-n-s - yeah.
W: Okay. Well, thanks. I might give her a call.
M: Do you want her telephone number?
W: Sure.
M: I think I have it.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.MILLER, Winona 25
TAPE I, SIDE 2.
M: ...her address is - you ready to take it?
W: Yes.
M: Lois B-r-u-n-s, Rt 8, Box 190, Llano, Texas.
W: Uh-huh.
M: 78643.
W: Okay. I'd also like to ask you about one of your other illustrious ancestors - the sheriff. If you wouldn't mind coming over and telling me about him. Okay. And his name again.
M: ...find it. His name was Wallace William Riddell.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And he was born in Spicewood, Texas, in 1899, and he died in 1978. And I think that he was...served the longest of anyone in Texas, as sheriff of Burnet County.
W: And his parents were?
M: His father was the one that was born in Scotland. His father was William Henry Riddell, and he was born in Scotland in 1877, and he died in Marble Falls, in Burnet County, in 1953.
W: Was he...did he work with stone too? Or what did he do for a living? Do you know?
M: Well, he farmed and ranched, and at one time he had a gin. And they had a little grocery store in Shovel Mountain, and also a cotton gin. This was Wallace's father.MILLER, Winona 26
W: William Henry. And did he own his own land? Do you know?
M: Yeah, he did. In fact, they donated land for Shovel Mountain schoolhouse. It's in this book here.
W: Oh.
M: Wallace's father did?
W: Uh-huh. And then was it his uncle or his father who was the teacher? I'm sorry.
M: It was his grandfather.
W: Okay.
M: Yeah, his grandfather.
W: William Henry's grandfather?
M: Uh, Wallace William Riddell and his father was William Henry Riddell and the grandfather was William D. Riddell.
W: Okay.
M: And he worked on the capitol. William D. Was the grandfather of Wallace.
W: Uh-huh. I was just trying to get the schoolteacher and donating land for the school and I was wondering...
M: Yeah, that was the son of the guy that came from Scotland, yeah.
W: Uh-huh. But I guess he probably didn't have anything to do with the capitol. he would have been... Well, if he was born in 187...William Henry.
M: Oh, no, he was just a baby.MILLER, Winona 27
W: He was just a baby. Yeah.
M: He probably wasn't over five years old.
W: Okay.
M: At the most.
W: Okay. Tell me about Wallace and his career.
M: Well, uh, he farmed and he ranched and he also, the way I remember it, he had cattle trucks where he, you know, transported cattle.
W: Uh-huh. To market you mean?
M: Yeah, to market, yeah. That was before he was sheriff.
W: Uh-huh. Where did they sell the cattle? From Burnet and Llano?
M: You know, I don't know. I don't know.
W: Would it be Fort Worth or...?
M: Maybe, maybe, I don't know about that. I just know that he did have cattle trucks.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And he was also...he was a rodeo man; he roped.
W: Really?
M: Yeah, he roped. Yeah, he roped.
W: Did he travel with the rodeo?
M: No. I guess just, you know, around; you know, surrounding places.
W: In the local ones?
M: Yeah, local, yeah.MILLER, Winona 28
W: Uh-huh. Like calf rope or did he do trick roping or ...?
M: Oh, I guess calf roping, yeah. Well, I tell you, I think that's about all I know.
W: You never met him or...
M: Oh, yeah, sure.
W: Oh, you did?
M: Sure, yeah, oh, sure.
W: Well, he must have been very well liked in the community if he was elected that many times.
M: Oh, yeah, he was. Yeah, he had opponents but he never...no one...he always, you know, won the election. He ...I think that he became sheriff in 19...I think 1939. And I don't know if he was still in office when he died. I don't know. Now this Grace could tell you that, that's his sister - the one that's in the nursing home.
W: Did they ever have any, you know, violent episodes up there? I mean was he ever involved in...?
M: Well, I don't know. Not that I know of. I don't know. He was a good sheriff though; everybody liked him.
W: Why do you think so? I mean, that's an awfully long time for a politician...
M: I don't know. I guess he was honest. And I remember that anytime there was ever a funeral, as far as I know, in MILLER, Winona 29
Burnet County, he was always there himself to direct traffic.
W: Um.
M: He was there.
W: Uh-huh.
M: That's one thing I remember about him. And his wife - they lived there in Burnet, they lived...I guess the jail was - and the house for the sheriff to live - was all in one building. I suppose...
W: I saw that. It's right on the square.
M: And she kept, uh-huh...and his wife...
W: Did she do the cooking?
M: She did. Essie was her name. Essie - she was from Spicewood also.
W: She was...maybe she was part of the reason he was re-elected so many times.
M: Maybe.
W: People might have liked her too.
M: Oh, she was a fine person.
W: Uh-huh.
M: In fact, their daughter is - oh, let's see - what is she? I guess she's the...anyway, she's held some kind of office for many years there in the courthouse - Mrs. Wallace's daughter.
W: Uh-huh. MILLER, Winona 30
M: Tax collector, I guess.
W: Tax collector. Uh-huh. What's her name?
M: Her name is...I wouldn't know if I...her married name is Modena. Let's see. Ah, oh, you know, I don't have that.
W: Was Modena her first name? Or her married...?
M: Oh, it's...Modena was her...Modena Riddell. But I don't know her married name.
W: Uh-huh.
M: I might have it here. Let's see on...[inaudible] it might be here. Of course, she's...her picture's also here. Ah - Daisy Bell - her name is C-u-r-i-n-g-t-o-n. Modena Riddell Curington.
W: Uh-huh.
M: She's the...I guess the tax collector or something. She's held this for many years there in the courthouse; she's in the courthouse.
W: Uh-huh.
M: And she could tell you more about her daddy if you happen to be around in Burnet.
W: And you were saying Wallace's sister...you were telling the story earlier, I think, something about Wallace's sister? Is that right?
M: Well, she's the one that's in the nursing home.
W: Oh, okay.MILLER, Winona 31
M: Yeah, Grace - Grace Riddell Herbort.
W: Yes. Uh-huh.
M: And she's about, I think she's...this is just...actually this is just...you know, my parents' family tree. Or maybe it does say when she was born - yeah, no, it don't. I wonder why? I don't know why it doesn't have her birthday on here.
W: Well, it must have been nice for William and Robert to meet all those other workers from Scotland.
M: I guess so. I don't know.
W: You know, if their father was that homesick, they were probably homesick too.
M: Uh-huh. So I don't know. It doesn't have...190...I think, though, Grace was probably born about 1902, so that would make...I think she's in her nineties. She's the one that's in the nursing home in Marble Falls.
W: Uh-huh. But you don't know if they ever kept in touch with any of the other workers? On the capitol.
M: No, I don't know.
W: [inaudible]...proud to have worked on the capitol?
M: That I don't know.
W: Was your family proud of them? Or was it a big deal in your family at all - that they...?
M: All I ever heard was that they came here, and they worked on the capitol. I guess that's why they...I guess MILLER, Winona 32
they came because they had work, you know. I know they were all, you know, honest hard-working people.
W: Well, I think that's all I can think to ask you.
M: Well, I'm sorry, but I told you I didn't know too much.
W: Uh-huh. Well, you...you actually helped a lot, and you told me other people to talk with.
M: Yeah.
W: And I really appreciate it and I'll follow up.
M: These two - they're older than I am - that they might know more than I do. I don't know.
W: Uh-huh. Okay. Well, I'll check.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.