As Seen in Vanity Fair's August 2006 Issue!
As Seen in US News & World Report's September 11 Fifth Anniversary Issue!
As Seen in Time Magazine's September 11, 2006 Issue!
As Seen in Phoenix New Times' August 9, 2007 Issue!

Sunday, May 21, 2006

More Silencing of Dissent!

Over at the Loose Change Forums, that is. James and I had the amusing experience earlier this month of being challenged to post over there by several commenters on the blog, who no doubt assumed that we would shrink like the Wicked Witch of the West when doused with the water of truth.

I lasted about 7 posts before some Looser banned me for not answering his question about a sex with boys ring in the Reagan-era White House--no, I'm not kidding. James was also summarily kayoed. To their credit a couple of the Loose Change forum members griped about this and briefly it appeared that we would be reinstated. Fortunately hotter heads prevailed and we remain locked out of the "Skeptics" portion of their forum until August, when we will no doubt be asked to account for the USS Liberty.

A week or two ago it came to my attention that I got a crapload of hits from the Universal Pictures "United 93" message boards from a poster named 'jebb'. Apparently he was a fan of the comic because he linked Chronicles of Garas in his signature along with a huge "YARLY" owl image. I even got a few fun emails about it.

I don't know why he did that and to be honest, I don't care. But ..9/11, that's a big thing to me. I know it's strange that Canadian is interested in an attack done in the states. I see it as something that totally changed how the entire Western world looked at the Middle East and Islam. Before, not many people really cared about Israel or what was happening there. We were shown videos in schools about how Muslim women had to dress heavily to cover their faces in World Religion class, but otherwise, it was just another culture that we would never really get to experience or care about.

Then a fellow by the name of Osama Bin Laden decided to greet the western world by slamming planes into the two towers and Pentagon. Now everyone from the Western world diverted their gaze from domestic problems to the Middle East. Who were these people, and why did they attack us? Why did they hate us? And for the record, I'm not talking about every freaking Muslim here; just the crazy ones.

Conspiracy theories now show up on the internet, with Alex Jones finally quitting his day job and posting online radio shows to tell the world about the global elite ready to rape us, with the powers of Immigration and Feminism. Michael Moore compares Bush to Hitler, makes a few crappy documentaries, and gets rich. The new players on the scene? Three kids who made a video called "Loose Change 9/11", a film that is purportedly dedicated to the lives of those lost in 9/11 and exposes the truth.

I joined the Loose Change boards and debated with these people denying 9/11's official story, mainly asking questions as "why didn't this happen" if their theory is true. Logical questions, like if the WTC 7 was really bought down by bombs, the fire fighters and Larry Silverstein would be part of a multi-billion dollar scandal. Of course, I never really got a direct answer, just personal attacks. I spent two hours dicking around and found out that this morning that I was banned.

It saddens me to see that apparently intelligent people who live in one of the best countries, if not the best, actually believe their government would pull off such a thing. Not only that, but with every bit of education and help they get from society, they spit back at them. They will use small bits of evidence and twist those to their view, ignoring everything else. They claim to be skeptical and open-minded, but will not hear the other side. They claim to fight for freedom, but as you can see from my banning, that they don't endorse that either. The Loose Change 9/11 forums also have a "Skeptics" forum so they can move posts that disagree with their view so the other members don't need to view it.

Here is just a summary of some of the sources and "facts" in Loose Change, just so you get the idea on how poorly made and how fabricated this documentation really is. Some of these facts I also learn on the Loose Change forums.

- Grade 10 physics is good enough knowledge to make a judgment on 9/11- Experts educated in their fields should not be trusted. Despite both private and public investigations were at the ground zero, they are "part of the coverup"- Jews are bad- American Free Press, a news source that is pretty much well-known for white supremacy and hating Jews, is a valid source of journalism. Loose Change documentation uses these guys often. In fact, one of the headlines stated in the newspaper they show at the video, says "Attack on Syria approved by Washington Warmongers". No bias eh?- Jimmy Walter is a great source of information, despite having no expertise on the field.- A message board post is credible source.- Jeff King, an MIT electric engineer, is valued over a structual engineer's opinion (fun fact: No structual engineer said the buildings were bought down by bombs)- NORAD is the air police and stood down on 9/11, even though not a single airline pilot or member of NORAD came forward and stated something was wrong after 9/11. Canada is in on 9/11 too.- A simile ("As if there were bombs placed") is concrete evidence.- All explosions are created by bombs.- Rigging a huge building takes a few hours without no one noticing. (http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/14122036.htm - 30 story building takes four months)- A bunch of high school kids can tell that there were bombs in the buildings, despite millions of witnesses that day. [And many structural engineers who disagree].- A spokesperson has the same technical-know-how as an engineer.- A Mexican mining engineer has a valid say when it comes to buildings coming down.

I could go on and on, but this is just some of the disinformation in Loose Change [and on the forums]. These people sicken me, because they would wait until destruction comes by, profit from it, and hide behind their 'truth movement'. Alex Jones, Michael Moore, and the members of Loose Change can't wait for something to big to happen so they can blame it on the government, while asking for donations to 'seek' the truth. They are nothing more than vultures. They plan on raiding the next 9/11 memorial in New York to heckle people who lost family members and friends there to 'tell them the truth'. If America had truly become a police state, these bastards wouldn't exist.

(Minor editing to conform to site style)

Amen, BK! BTW, he has a web-comic that those of you who are into Sword & Sorcery will enjoy. I'm an old Conan fan myself so this one is right up my alley.

131 Comments:

As I think everyone knows, my contention never been to say that Loose Change, the Loose Change Site, the politics at the Loose Change website, or the opinions or behavior of self-labeled 9/11 Truth advocates are flawless.

The more that Loose Change frauds, shortcomings, etc. can be pointed out is good as long as the points that are not debunked can remain on everyone's mind.

In addition, movies are movies. I challenge everyone to take the time to read Webster Tarpley's book, or David Ray Griffin's "9/11 Commission...." before you have any business saying that everything about 9/11 questions are just like the parts of Loose Change that you say are hooey.

Here's a article that I would recommend to anybody to get a little perspective on where things are. It's more than a year old, but it cuts away from the furor over Loose Change and hopefully brings this topic where it can be considered more calmly.

Pat said in the post about starting to watch 911 Eyewitness, he didn't appreciate a big deal being made out of the "black helicopters". I appreciate that. I can understand why it seems like making something out of most likely nothing.

Here's three minutes video on youtube (originally from Cameraplanet) that shows a suspicious helicopter. Much more significant, we see evidence of thermate or thermite burning and melting steel befor the collapse.

2nd Post that quotes from a 9/11 Truth Email List (talking about Jim Fetzer of Scholars for 9/11 Truth):

I should say, in defense of Fetzer, that,stylistically, he is anextremely effective public speaker, dominates debateswell, and writeswell.

I just question his strategic judgement and his use oflimitedresources, precious assets and rare opportunities.

Why haven't we heard more about the (fairly likelystate-sponsored)murder of one of his younger activist colleagues ? Or has Fetzer been advised not to discuss this caseopenly because itmight "frighten others away" from 9/11 even more ?...As to Fetzer's motives in all of this.....?It really makes me gag to here him do his tap-danceapologetics forthe rotten corrupt bloody-handed Democratic Party....most of whosetop figures are fully complicit with these outrages.Reminds me of those LaRouchies who also yap-yap aroundthe ankles ofany hack Democrat or passive union clerk .. whilegutlesslyside-stepping the Democratic Party's INSTITUTIONALCOMPLICITY ANDCOLLABORATION with the criminals of September 11th.

In interviews, Fetzer persistently implies that it isall the work ofthe nefarious Dick Cheney (sounds like he cribbed thata bit from MikeRuppert's heavily promoted book).

Don't insult our intelligence, Prof. Fetzer.The planning for 9/11 goes back much, much furtherthan the Bushadminsitration.Why would you seek to obfuscate or minimize the roleof theClinton-crats in this ?How do you characterize the bald-faced lying ofMadeline Albright on adaily basis, as she goes around pimping her booksales, propagatingthe filthy mythology that Bin Laden and Al Qaeda did9/11 ?

What about the Oklahama City bombing of the MurrahBldg., Prof. Fetzer? Surely Prof. Fetzer would agree with Webster Tarleythat the OKCevent was an engineered false-flag event as well,bearing features ofa continuous string of such operations.

To REALLY educate and enlighten the poor be-nightednon-academicmasses, the Sf9/11T should be LINKING 9/11 to asystematic LONG-TERMchain of such horrors ... perpetrated by a fairlyconsistent group ofcriminals and corrupt officials, in many countries;and reliant onnear-total control of the media. Surely, that would RE-CONTEXTUALIZE the significanceof 9/11 and placeit within an historically meaningful (hencecomprehensible) framework.

That should be Sf9/11T "mass educational" toppriority.Banalizing 9/11 by placing it in historica (andfuture) context.How can they do that by spreading a falseunderstanding of things like"war games" or "terror drills" ?

Or by helping to perpetuate dangerously fatalillusions about thereliability or leadership capacity of, effectively,collaborators andpush-overs like Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, JohnKerry ...virtuallythe entire United States Senate .. and just aboutevery Democrat inthe House, except for the possible exception ofCynthia McKinney.

Fetzer is being more than disingenous when he boostsfantasies about"cleaning house" at Pennsylvania Ave., as the path tojustice for bothvicitms and the perps of 9/11.He is peddling deadly illusions.Perhaps he shares those illusions himself... ?That would have to be willful self-deception wouldn'tit ?Either way, no one can afford the risk of such poorjudgement ..We already have one conspicuously dead "scholar for9/11 truth".I noticed that even Alex Jones was hesitant toconfront Fetzer on thepeddling of Democratic Party leadership as the path to9/11.

I grew up on the hard left, back in the 60s.We were never the least bit afraid to finger LyndonJohnson and theDemocratic Party establishment for their bloody-handedmurder of youngAmericans and Vietnamese in a war that profitedJohnson's corporatesponsors, while bankrupting the US and wasting awaythe best of ourtroops.

If Fetzer is afraid to say it ... well I am not.The Democratic Party, it's leadership, indeed all itscadres ... beardirect responsibiity for the perpetuation of the 9/11hoax ....in an atmosphere where polls increasingly indicatethat masses ofordinary Democrats openly reject the government andcontrolled mediamanufactured myth.You gutless and treasonous Democrats (and so-calledProgressives andGreens) ran out of excuses a long time ago.If you have remained silent for so long, you alreadystand exposed ascowards or fools.

bg,Was it offensive when 9/11 was blamed on Arabs? Our news media was chock full of crap about the hijackers doing it to have themselves "72 virgins." Racist, demonizing stuff that made Arabs and the Islamic religion out to be vile and perverted. Remember how many times you saw the videos of Palestinians celebrating? That was an interesting point made by Andreas von Buelow, the former German minister, that someone made sure to have that footage all keyed up to be broadcast on CNN and CBS.

And a vast majority of Jews are Zionists. Belief that your people should have their own nation isn't evil. If so, the Palestinians are evil. As are the Chinese. As are Americans. As are Germans. As are the British.

I would love to see a poll on how many Americans believe "Israel did it."

Not many. Something like 67 percent of Americans support Israel.

Now, there's another whole level someimes referred to as the Israeli Lobby in the US..... now you are getting warmer....

Our news media was chock full of crap about the hijackers doing it to have themselves "72 virgins." Racist, demonizing stuff that made Arabs and the Islamic religion out to be vile and perverted.

Well, I sure as hell wouldn't subscribe to a religion which told me to kill all unbelievers in the holy text. We don't need to demonize them, they do it themselves. When cartoons are drawn they burn embassies and threaten to kill people.

Remember how many times you saw the videos of Palestinians celebrating?

Once. And why should we not see it? It only goes to show how little sanctity those people put on life. I don't dance in the street when I hear a Palestinian child died.

shawn,just put "dancing Israelis" in any search engine and you come up with the Israelis celebrating as they watched the twin towers come down. Former Israeli PM Netanyahu's first reaction to 9/11 was that it was a good thing for US/Israel relations. Those are facts.

The Palestinians celebrating was played many times and it was faked footage; you can find that story easily enough, too. The really odd point about it is that news agencies went out to get that story in order to demonize Palestinians on 9/11.

Evidence that those 19 Arabs were on the planes, let alone hijacked them, is not very good. Couldn't convict in a court of law, for sure.

in your article, you claim that osama bin laden "slammed airplanes into the WTC towers and pentagon". however, the fbi itself does not list those terrorist acts as reasons for his arrest warrant. can you please justify how you can make such a statement, considering he issued statements following the attack that he was not involved in it, as mentioned below on the CNN website?

markyx,Some of those fellows are still alive but even if they were all dead, what does that prove? On the very first day he was there, Moussaoui asked the instructors at that MN flight school "What kind of damage would it do if a fully fueled 747 slammed into something." And the instructors called the FBI and reported him the very first day. With a convenient visa violation so he could be held in jail. Very obviously planted "Arab" patsy. Why?

just put "dancing Israelis" in any search engine and you come up with the Israelis celebrating as they watched the twin towers come down.

You come up with the story nesnyc has been parroting. Never mind it isn't true.

Former Israeli PM Netanyahu's first reaction to 9/11 was that it was a good thing for US/Israel relations.

I wonder why he would say that...maybe because America would finally help them fight the Islamists? Seems a normal enough response to me.

The Palestinians celebrating was played many times and it was faked footage; you can find that story easily enough, too.

It wasn't faked, that's an oft-repeated myth now. I read and heard it often, mostly from pro-Palestine people trying to discredit anything that would show Palestinians being anything but helpless victims.

The really odd point about it is that news agencies went out to get that story in order to demonize Palestinians on 9/11.

Oh the media that's clearly pro-Palestine? Hell, the BBC just had an outside group look at their stories and found a clear bias.

Evidence that those 19 Arabs were on the planes, let alone hijacked them, is not very good. Couldn't convict in a court of law, for sure.

Except for having footage of them, calls made from the planes saying Arabs had hijacked the planes, etc. I'm pretty sure it did convict someone in a court of law, so you're wrong, hun!

There's an overwhelming amount of evidence to make the case, and saying there isn't doesn't make it true. I've never taken a law class in my life and I could win that case.

On the very first day he was there, Moussaoui asked the instructors at that MN flight school "What kind of damage would it do if a fully fueled 747 slammed into something." And the instructors called the FBI and reported him the very first day. With a convenient visa violation so he could be held in jail.

This is what I hate about CTs.

Link to a source, a REAL source. You're just stating something without backing anything up.

As for the media being proPalestinian, how many Americans know the name "Rachel Corrie" vs how many know the name "Natalee Holloway?" You can't really believe that the American public wouldn't care about an American girl being run over and killed by a government bulldozer but coverage of her death was scant indeed.

Ahhh the ISM useful idiot. Stood in front of a pile of debris being cleared to get rid of gun running tunnels. Her death was her own fault.

You forget, Jenin? The media reported it as some massive massacre of Palestinians. Not until years later did I find out it was an Israeli action rooting out militants, and several civilians were killed because the militants hid among them.

I continue to use “alleged” when referring to the hijackers because there is not a shred of evidence that there was a single Arab on any of the four flights. Consider:

There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists making plane reservations. If they did, there would be a “record locator,” complete with details. There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists buying or using tickets. (IDs required) There is no hard-copy of a single printed ticket ‘copy.’ There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists on any of the passenger manifests, with all legitimate passengers being accounted for. There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists in the autopsies. There is not so much as a suggestion that the purported 9-11 terrorists had the requisite piloting skills—rather, the contrary. There is no documentation (per the FBI [Mueller]) to link the purported 9-11 terrorists to the events of the day. At least seven of the purported 9-11 terrorists are known to still be alive in the Middle East—with no questions being asked.

"Blond chick who got herself killed in Aruba and caused a major media brouhaha."

Ohhhh. Yeah I remember that. I'm deffinitely more familiar with the Rachel Corrie incident though. Some chick getting killed on vacation in Aruba just doesn't concern me much. Feel bad for her family, but that's a regular occurence. On the other hand, a jew-hating retard proving that Darwin was correct is a LOT more interesting.

Joan honey? I think you (and BG and nesnyc) could stand to benefit from a re-enactment of that scene from Airplane! (ironic?) where the woman (you) is freaking out on the flight and people line up down the isle to smack some sense into her.

And just so I can beat Shawn to it, I already call "Guy With Baseball Bat".

Let's see she stands in front of a bulldozer, where the driver CAN'T EVEN SEE HER and it's his fault that she got run over? He obviously didn't just run over some chick on purpose. She was a useful idiot for the Fatah terrorist regime. The fact that these peace protestors always go on the wrong side is laughable.

"This innocent little american girl, who liked to light american flags on fire while hanging out with palestinian terrorists, flew all the way to Israel, drove out to palestine, found herself some demolition work in progress, stood in front of a moving bulldozer, and got flattened. Clearly the whole thing was a Zionist conspiracy."

Natalee Holloway was drinking and running wild but the American people care about her. They'd care about Rachel Corrie if they heard the story. The US media is protecting the government of Israel with such meager reporting on the tragic death of an American girl. There is no other reason for the skant coverage. We know for a fact that Americans care about other Americans coming to harm in foreign countries.

You want to believe Rachel Corrie deserved to die the same way you want to believe Arabs did 9/11 despite the lack of evidence.

You want to believe Rachel Corrie deserved to die the same way you want to believe Arabs did 9/11 despite the lack of evidence.

Huh, what?

I didn't say Rachel deserved to die, but I will yell "DARWIN" because you don't get in front of a bulldozer that is about a size of a freaking house.

And there is plenty of evidence of Arabs, from statements made by family members to the confession tape. I guess Arabs believe in the myth too, since you can buy Osama Bin Laden toys with burning WTC at the streets of Palestine.

There's no proof of any of the "19 hijackers" buying plane tickes in the msnbc link, either. Somebody saying he checked Mohammed Atta in is pretty lousy "proof" when there should be so much. I'm sure there's solid documentation of my purchase of plane tickets to go on vacation last year.

There's no proof of any of the "19 hijackers" buying plane tickes in the msnbc link, either. Somebody saying he checked Mohammed Atta in is pretty lousy "proof" when there should be so much.

Here's where you use critical thinking. A bunch of Arabs go into Washington and Boston and happen to disappear on the same day a number of planes are hijacked and crashed by Arabs. So either they disappeared off the face of the Earth or they were the ones who hijacked the planes.

The fact he was going into Boston showed he had plane tickets, by the way.

Shawn, not true at all. I often times enjoy going to JFK and/or LaGuardia to check myself onto a flight I haven't purchased a ticket for. It helps pass the time on weekends I'm short on cash, and messing with with ticketing agents is a real hoot.

Joan, honey baby crazy. I could be WAY off base here, but I'm thinking the other hijackers who weren't coming from Portland probably needed a way to get to Logan Airport, and I'm guessing (again, I'm just spitballing here) that they may have rented a car.

Well, thats how we ended up stuck in this idiotic Iraq War thats going to cost us over a trillion dollars and God knows how many American and Iraqi lives and our prestige around the world: critical thinking instead of hard evidence.

Well, thats how we ended up stuck in this idiotic Iraq War thats going to cost us over a trillion dollars and God knows how many American and Iraqi lives and our prestige around the world: critical thinking instead of hard evidence.

Our "prestige" never existed. All the countries that hated us now, hated us then. Nobody likes the top dog.

But when the almost definite isolationist actions occur under the next administration or the one following, we'll all be sorry. That's how the world wars happened.

Yeah, I'm hoping beyond all hope that the republicans get elected again in 2008. I'm Canadian so it's not like I normaly play partisan politics...but the US...and the world...need another administration which will have the intestinal fortitude to continue with the current operations. If the dems take the whitehouse in 2008, I'm gonna start getting ready for WW3.

I tried. I'm actually in the Canadian military, but they decided to keep me home to teach new recruits (think Drill Sgt) instead of sending me to Afghanistan. See, ever since 9/11 we've been expanding like mad, so they need all the good instructors they can get their hands on.

Anyway, I didn't like that idea, so I tried to clear out and join the Marines instead. No joy. They offered me a good contract, and offered to start me as an E4, but I'd have to get a green card in order to be able to sign up. I briefly even contemplated marrying a girl I know in New York just so I could get the green card, but while I'd love to join the Marines, marriage is a much more dangerous commitment.

alex,I think you got bad information. There are people joining the army TO GET legal permission to stay in the US. IOW, they don't have green cards. If they did have legal permission to be in the US, the Army wouldn't be attractive to them.

You have no idea what you're talking about Joan. SOME soldiers join because it helps them get their citizenship sooner. That's MUCH different than joining to get a green card.

And before you try telling me again that I'm wrong, you should be aware that I spoke to something like 20 recruiters in 12 different states. I eventually even got in contact with a couple senators (including Sen. Clinton just for fun) to see if they'd be willing to sponsor a bill allowing non-residents in closely allied countrie to apply for and work in the US military. So I think I'm a little better informed in this respect than you are.

"they want to be martyrs to get 72 virgins" is a joke Joan. We all understand that the situation is a lot more involved than that. Only a moron would beleive that their ONLY motivation was 72 virgins in heaven. But at the same time, that was at least part of the motivation for some of them. It's a joke loosely anchored in reality.

alex, you're saying the Iraq war is very important to you and you couldn't be bothered to get a green card? No offense, but just how hard did you try, really try? There are thousands of non citizens in the US armed forces. What did they do that you couldn't do?

"There are thousands of non citizens in the US armed forces. What did they do that you couldn't do?"

You really are retarded eh?

Let me lay it out for you:

"non-citizen" does NOT equal "no-green-card"

You can have a green card, but it won't make you a citizen. Therefore the fact that there may be thousands of "non-citizens" doesn't prove there's any who don't have green cards. It just means they're not citizens.

And yes, I tried to get a green-card. I have an automatic handicap because I'm white and from a first world country. It's much easier to get a green card if you're a refugee.

If I had a decent gauranteed job in the US, and the owner was willing to sponsor me, I could maybe get a green card. Unfortiunately, the federal government can't sponsor me, even though they're offering me a job.

Finally, I could get married to get a green card. And I explained that already.

In the end, no, I couldn't get a fucking green card. And yes, I would go fight in Iraq or Afghanistan in a heartbeat. I have about 20 friends in Iraq right now, and another 30 in Afghanistan. I'd love to be able to stand beside them.

And then you follow with this jem:

"Yes, they were so religious they'd die for it but they frequented lap dancers. "

Now I KNOW you're retarded. Islaam forgives any indescretion in life as long as you die killing infidels. So you've got 19 men who are repressed and sexualy frustrated due to their upbringing, who now all of a sudden can do ANYTHING THEY WANT and still get into heaven.

Well, that's a no brainer, eh?

And since I now know you're retarded and that this is going nowhere, I'm signing off and going to sleep. Try taking off your tinfoil helmet when you go to sleep tonight, it may help.

Yes, they were so religious they'd die for it but they frequented lap dancers.

And Osama and various religious leaders wear watches and rings.

These motives make no sense strategically, IMO, but the logical starting point would be means, motive and opportunity.

Nor did the Holocaust. In fact, it actually was strategically unsound. Also, al Qaeda (or any group of terrorists) attacking us is strategically unsound. They've lost thousands of their people and most of their higher ups. Ideology goes a long way.

Now I KNOW you're retarded. Islaam forgives any indescretion in life as long as you die killing infidels. So you've got 19 men who are repressed and sexualy frustrated due to their upbringing, who now all of a sudden can do ANYTHING THEY WANT and still get into heaven.

@markyx a confession tape provided by the us army, not through the usual channels osama bin laden had been using up to now. apparently found by us soliders in a cave where osama had supposedly been hiding. the character seen in the video does not have the same facial features as bin laden, appears to be right-handed (fbi site says bin laden is left-handed) but believe its authenticity if you wish. The mere fact that the FBI has still not attributed the attacks to him seems a pretty convincing argument by itself.

as for his support for the attacks, are you talking financial support, cuz that has not been proved in any way. as for "moral" support, an awful lot of muslims would need to be rounded up in that case, guantanamo will need to be seriously extended.

Alex, you seem very defensive. Basically, you're sitting in a comfortable chair in front of a computer like the rest of us while the war you support is killing little children every day with no end in sight.

shawn, I don't know what the Holocaust has to do with anything in the 9/11 context. Its over 60 years ago. Comparing Hitler running Germany to Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan - I don't get the point. I do think other historical events are relevant, though, like the October Surprise and the Iran Contra arms for hostages because of the multi-layered deception and motives.

@markyx a confession tape provided by the us army, not through the usual channels osama bin laden had been using up to now. apparently found by us soliders in a cave where osama had supposedly been hiding

I'm glad somebody mentioned this.

What proof do you have that it was created by the US army?

the character seen in the video does not have the same facial features as bin laden,

Yeah he does. Loose Change doesn't show the higher resolution picture. I wouldn't be surprised if they lowered the quality on purpose to screw with your head.

Notice in other videos that he wears the exact clothing from the 'fake' confession tapes?

appears to be right-handed (fbi site says bin laden is left-handed)

Like Christains, being left-handed is a 'bad thing' in the Muslim culture. I wasn't surprised that he could use his right hand. Just because he is using his right hand though, doesn't mean he is right handed. For all we know, he could've wrote chicken scratches. If I write with my left hand, does that mean I'm left handed?

joan- "while the war you support is killing little children every day with no end in sight."

Let me tell you a thing or two. I've listened to your idiotic rants for quite a while now, and not been personally bothered - until now. While it is a shame that a war is going on and children are dying, your America is bad attitude is starting to irritate me. How many children died before the US went to Iraq? why don't you hold the freaking murdering, terrorist, shitbags accountable for killing innocent men, women, and YES CHILDREN. Do you know that they do it intentionally??? You have heard that right? Like parking a carbomb next to a school; like making a watermelon truck into a bomb, like putting a bomb onto a mentally handicapped child's wheelchair - during the elections. How do i know? BECAUSE I'VE BEEN THERE. I don't hear you saying ANYTHING about the MEDCAP (medical aid for civilian folks) missions that we do. How about the schools we've built? How about the KIDS that we let out of Sadam's prison? You know who is killing and persecuting women, and children? The terrorists thats who. We have worked to better Iraqis and we have. The terrorists in Iraq sabotage their own infrastructure. Why would they do that? Don't start talking about stuff you don't know about. if you've got questions, i'd be glad to answer them

"Alex, you seem very defensive. Basically, you're sitting in a comfortable chair in front of a computer like the rest of us while the war you support is killing little children every day with no end in sight."

You dumb fucking cunt. The people who WE ARE KILLING are the ones "killing little children every day". THAT is why we're THERE. What the fuck is your problem anyway? You think the world should revolve around you and your ideas? Well yeah, you're so fucking dense that it probably should, but guess what babe, it doesn't. You have absolutely no CLUE what the rest of the world is like. I do. While I may not have had the chance to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, I HAVE worked in other countries, so I know full well just how fucked up and depraved human beings can become. I've been to countries where thieves would routinely beat the living crap out of innocent individuals, and then leave them by the side of the road, waiting for a vehicle to stop so they could car-jack it. That's in a country that's technicaly at peace Joan. Want to hear about Iraq and Afghanistan? One of the soldiers I trained corresponds with me on an almost daily basis. One day while driving along he had a little girl run out in front of his convoy. Turns out she'd found an IED and was trying to show them. Unfortiunately they only figured that out after her body went sailing past his window. Or how about one of my American buddies, who had to go through what is probably THE most most traumatizing experience I've ever heard of, when his stryker got stopped by a crowd of kids. Turns out the "insurgents" had paid the kids to stand there and block the road. When the IED went off, not only did it damage the vehicle and hurt some of the soldiers, it killed 12 children and wounded a handfull more. The WAR isn't killing these kids Joan. The bloodthirsty, remorseless savages who we are fighting are the ones killing them. But the good news Joan is that there is an "end in sight". Bosnia took us 13 years before we could pull out. Iraq is turning around at roughly the same pace. Afghanistan is a little slower, but once the ING is capable of taking over most of the operations in Iraq, hopefuly more troops will be redirected to Afghanistan. All in all, the war's going quite well thanks. If you care so much about the dying children, pick up a rifle and help us hunt down their killers.

Did I ever claim in my post it had been created by the US army? All I said was that he usually releases statements through other channels, but the US army happened to find his confession in a cave in Afghanistan where the US army claims he was hiding. However, in other statements released through the appropriate channels, he denies involvement. Why would he deny involvement in previous statements then record another tape where he claims responsibility, but not release it? This seems very far fetched. Noone has proof that :-a. he made the tape,b. the tape was indeed found in a cave in afghanistan,c. he was hiding in said cave.

and to return your question, what proof do you have the us army or cia did not create this tape?

as for your comment about using your left-hand to write on a pad though right-handed, do you do that often? How frequently?

And more importantly, what do you make of the FBI profile, which you have very conveniently avoided talking about so far?

you mean like the previous pentagon images blog you deleted once I mentioned pentagate and the new pearl harbour books?

right, so the tape was found in jalalabad, how does that prove its authenticity? Even if the tape is authentic, he never actually claims responsability in the tape, but merely that he knew of the attacks beforehand, and that the destruction went beyond his hopes. Hardly a case for making him the mastermind behind the attacks or his financial involvement. Mossad also knew of the attacks, I don't see the US carpet-bombing Tel-Aviv on my TV screen.

OK guys, I know these people are frustrating, but try to keep the profanity to a minimum. I don't want to have to go deleting posts.

If you notice only the supporters of the official conspiracy get out of line. I feel this is indicative of a weak and why they are predisposed to believe and crap the government spews out. I say, let them have their little tantrums; it only shows how the wheels of logic are really turning in their minds. Blind anger blinds rationality.

Another aspect of the tension is that those of us who get frustrated are constrained by facts and reality when making our arguments.

If something doesn't fit your theory or isn't to your liking, you CTers are free to invent whatever you need to make it plausible in your mind.

I now know exactly what it's like arguing with a room full of mental patients.

So you can go kiss my ass with a pack of thermite or a cruise missle or some oxygen starved fires or some evil movie critics or some psy-ops helicopters or some controlled demolitions or mock up planes or a harem of damn dirty JOOOOS for all I care.

even foxnews had picked up on this story about mossad agents seen in Liberty Park celebrating the collapse of the twin towers. 1 later refused to take a lie detector test, and when he eventually took it, failed it miserably. said agents were later found to be demolition experts and intelligence agents. but hey, let's not send them to guantanamo, in fact, let's not even detain them on spying charges, let's just send them home.

It's not so much the frustration that pisses me off so much as the ego-trips and the sheer lack of respect. Joan suggesting that we're all a bunch of baby-killing savages was way over the top. The rest of the retards don't really anger me much, although occasionaly I go from being simply amazed that someone can have so much blind faith in their own delusions, to being rather annoyed that I can't beat some sense into them.

shawn, I don't know what the Holocaust has to do with anything in the 9/11 context. Its over 60 years ago. Comparing Hitler running Germany to Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan - I don't get the point. I do think other historical events are relevant, though, like the October Surprise and the Iran Contra arms for hostages because of the multi-layered deception and motives.

October surprise isn't a specific event, hun. It refers to any event that comes out before an election to gain support for your side.

I know you're a moron, so I have to spell this out. You said it was strategically unsound for al-Qaeda to attack us. I then used probably the most famous and largest example of strategic unsoundness in history. I was making the point that ideology, rather than strategy, carries a long way.

and your referencing the amount of google returns, compare that to news time they got, and how many news stories there are. not fan sites. or the millions of memorial sites from people that didnt even know the person. both of them could have been retarted (judging by the results, they may well have been) that doesnt eman i should care about their death. but atleast in one situation she was standing up for somthing, the other was killed cause she was drunk an ignorent in a country she knew shit about, there for a party where she could slut it out without her parents finding out.... oops guess that failed.

just like i dont care about these two people, because ultimatly neither of them acomplished anything. dont read into what i have to say abotu two people i never knew. in reality thats what all of you need to do. unless any of you are expers on ANYTHING relating to what happened on 9-11. both sides are spitting out statments that no one can back up.

unless you were on the plane, you dont know what happened.

the evidence available is all easily menipulated on both sides.

the only people that know anything are the ones that can admit they know nothing

"but atleast in one situation she was standing up for somthing, the other was killed cause she was drunk an ignorent in a country she knew shit about, there for a party where she could slut it out without her parents finding out...."

Wow, you must not be getting laid much. Anyway, the way I see it, one deliberately threw herself in front of a moving bulldozer, thereby proving darwin was right, while the other one ended up the unwilling victim of a criminal while trying to have a good time. It takes a truly special kind of psycopath to see it any other way.

"the only people that know anything are the ones that can admit they know nothing"

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