So proud of this response to a Romney supporting friend of mine....

I have a friend that I have been going back and forth about over this election for weeks on Facebook. He is my farrier and we have developed this weird thing where face to face we talk about everything under the sun BUT politics and on Facebook just about the only thing we talk about is politics. The distance of Facebook has allowed us to stay friends and business associates while arguing like crazy every day about politics.

We segued into a talk about the fall of Rome and a patriarchal society that hoards resources and strangles the lower classes. Another friend had jumped in and said, "Yep, that's pretty much what happened." To which my farrier responded "So, we just tax the rich bastards??"

Here is my response:

"Pretty much. I know that to some people it feels like that is penalizing 'them' for being successful, but that is a knee jerk, immediate reaction to something that is much more complex.

Some of the complexities involved are the fact they we cannot make an endless supply of money so that everybody can have some without reducing the worth of that money. Again, HELLO...Argentina. So, if the wealthy earn interest and dividends on their money and investments, they continue to sop up more and more of a finite resource. In any repetitive mathematical equation, you hit a tipping point. There is a parable about the Pasha of India wanting to reward the creator of the game of chess because he thought it was the most wondrous game he had ever played. He asked the man what he wanted for a reward and the man said, "My request is that you would give me one grain of rice for the first square on the board, two for the second, four for the third, and so on." The Pasha thought this sounded very modest and instantly agreed. The problem is that if you double the amount of rice for each square on the board, by time you get to the last square you have a pile of rice BIGGER THAN MT EVEREST. And the amount doesn't start to get freaky enormous or a problem until about the second half of the board. At the end of the first half of the board, you are talking about a large amount (I think I have heard it compared to several dump trucks worth). But into the second 32 doublings, that amount starts to get increasingly enormous increasingly quickly.

Same thing goes with the money that the wealthy are hoarding. They didn't start out holding 87.7% of all the wealth in the country. But since their money makes money, they have continued to get wealthier and wealthier even while we have been going downhill. And we are starting to hit the second half of the chess board. They have SO MUCH of the wealth and their wealth is earning SO MUCH of a return that every year they are soaking up an exponentially larger amount of that available resource. Bryan, if the top 20% of people were holding 87.7% of the food available and asking 80% of the people in this country to live off of 13.3% of the food, you would be the first in line with your pitchfork and torch. And we would go in there and TAKE BACK some of our food. You wouldn't sit around waiting for them to hand you the food, you wouldn't rely on them doing the right thing with the food and sharing it and you sure as hell wouldn't vote to give them MORE FOOD on the off chance that some how some of it would trickle back down to you.

The uber wealthy in this country have managed to take 2.7% MORE of the wealth in this country since 2007. While the middle class has basically fallen and can't get up, they have gotten phenomenally wealthier. Trust me, 2.7% of the wealth of this entire country is A LOT of land, money, and tangible assets. And we don't have it any more and they do. And you are waiting around for them to produce more jobs with that money so that some of it can come back to us. And while in some people's minds that makes sense, in THIRTY YEARS it has never happened. Since we have lowered what the top bracket pays in taxes, the middle class has steadily lost ground to that thin layer of upper class. There are no more jobs. There is nothing coming back to us. With our vast voting power we gave them that money thinking that they would invest it in economic growth and instead they have sat on it and allowed it to earn them interest. Which sucks up more money, which earns more interest and soon there isn't going to be enough left over to even HAVE a viable middle class.

And I don't blame them. I might do the same thing. Not because I would want to hurt the people below me, but because it is human nature to hold on to what is yours. But whether somebody runs you over by accident or on purpose, you are still dead. I think the huge thing that people have lost over the years is that the government isn't separate from us. It IS us. You have this idea that the government is some big, looming bad thing. I don't think it is. It is the tool that we have been given to insure the best lives we can have for ourselves. We cannot storm the halls of the wealthy with pitchforks and torches in this day and age. But we can use the tool the Founding Fathers gave us and take back something for ourselves. And that is why I vote the way I vote. Period. Not because I like or dislike a candidate, not because of some hot button social issue that gets my dander up...but on which candidate I think will give MY KIDS their best shot at having a decent life. Not the perfect candidate; there is no such thing. No one can satisfy everyone all of the time. But the candidate who at least recognizes that giving the wealthy more and more money isn't helping me one bit. "

3. It's cheesy to kick your own thread, but I am excited about this because...

I have found my talking point.

Approaching it from this standpoint avoids getting into weird moral grounds and it is something that every one of my friends can relate to. It is fact based, I don't wind up arguing who is the best candidate for immigration or anything else with people who hold fundamentally different views on the world.

Basically, this is the first thing I have thrown at this guy that he has slowed down and said, "Hmmmm...." about. It is simply true that the upper class is sucking up all of the available resources and that if they keep it up, there won't be anything left for us. It is also true that the most reliable tool for us to get some of that money back is through taxation and regulation.

7. Beautiful.

9. Sure! That's why I shared it.

I have been arguing with this guy forever and he ALWAYS has a comeback for everything. But I have been trying this approach for a day or so, culminating in that post last night. This is the first anti-GOP argument I have come up with that he is actually considering. I am not sure it will change his vote, but it has at least slowed him down and got him thinking. It avoids having to discuss whether life begins at conception, whether or not Mitt Romney is a liar or whether or not Barack Obama has done a great job in every single possible area in the past four years.

And it just strikes HOME. Hell, even RUSH LIMBAUGH had a weak moment when confronted with the most recent information about the death of the middle class!

I really think this is a good talking point that everybody can understand.

15. He believes that he is worse off now than he was four years ago. Period.

The thing is, with this argument he has somebody other than Obama to blame.

No matter how many times I have cited evidence that trickle down economics does not and has never worked, he still says that taxing the job creators is a mistake. But I think the amount of information recently released on the middle class and its demise is starting to make a dent in his brain.

18. Just Yesterday- Same argument

Yesterday at the 60th Anniversary Party for my Mom and Dad, I was deep in the enemy camp. All my aunts and uncles and most of my cousins are Republicans and many of them are "born agains" My brother (who has inherited wealth from his wife's family) was going on and on to me about how "we can't tax the rich and certainly not the rich corporations."
Every time he made this statement I simply countered with "Twelve years of reduced taxes and where are the job?" and I swear it was like hitting a reset button on a recording. He would look at me with a blank stare and repeat the same thing, "We can't tax the rich and certainly not the rich corporations."
No argument, no facts, no response at all, just the crazy mantra. We went around like this four times and I simply walked away.

My husband and I are struggling in our early sixties just to keep a roof over our heads. My parents are well to do... not Romney money, but money none the less. They NEVER offer any help to us and when I asked them for help twenty years ago when we lost or business to the last recession they demanded that we pay them back with interest... which we did. We were never able to save because of it. We sacrificed to move twelve years ago for a great job.... the shit hit the fan in 2008, my husband's salary was cut by one third! Take it or leave it they said. We have lost a decade of what should have been peak earning potential. I'm not complaining. We are better off than most. But when your own family... those who you hold dearest... vote against your best interests and will not offer any explanation other than... "we can't tax the rich and certainly not the rich corporations." It is hurtful. My husband and I are both highly accomplished individuals and my family makes us feel like losers. It is seriously F***** UP!

31. When they are old and in need of care remember how they treated you

Paybacks are a bitch as they say. I took care of both my parents as I was the only child in the area and one of two that even cared about them. Ironically the third child who turned her back on them had manipulated my dad into leaving her the most in the will.

54. Boy can I relate to your situtation....

My ex-wife and I struggled for decades with both of us working... her father is VERY well off and we asked for help one time and he made us feel like we were worthless because we couldn't make it on our own like he did. Now realize we only were asking for a little assistance because I had been laid off again... the woodworking/cabinetry/furniture industry was hit hard by NAFTA. 5 of 6 companies I had worked for over a 12 year period either moved out of the country or shut down completely because we couldn't compete with over seas. The last one is still there but had to cut back and laid off over half it's employees. Now you try starting over 6 times in 12 years ..it take it toll... but anyway... good for you guys... you know you are right and be thankful and grateful you are.

21. Your friend sounds like someone who has to work for a living and whom the

stagnant economy has adversely affected. I'm far worse off than I was four years ago -- 2 years of unemployment tends to have that effect -- but I know things can get a lot worse than they are now if Republicans gain more power.

The key, though, is 'work for a living.' I'll bet your friend is unaware that the investor class pays a far lower tax rate on its dividends and interest than your friend does on his labor. And it's not like the investor class is actually 'doing' anything or 'creating' any jobs. It merely sits back and passively collects dividends and interest on its investments.

33. Exactly.

He had a good job as a construction supervisor which evaporated when the housing bubble burst. He then took a life long interest in horses, went to farrier school and became a farrier. And he is damn good for only having been at it for a few years. But even though I tell him over and over again that the housing bubble problem and his subsequent job loss all happened before Obama even came into office, he always replies with some version of "I am doing worse now than I was then."

8. Well spoken!

10. You might remind them that...

...the largest economic expansion in American history came directly in the wake of raising the tax rate on the wealthiest Americans without a single Republican vote.

Conservatives have spent nearly two decades desperately trying to muddy those waters, but it is still there, it is still obvious, and it is still the greatest economic recovery ever recorded.

And it is going to happen again. That is our consolation prize if we lose: President Obama can still veto any extension until he leaves, and Senate Democrats will never allow a retroactive extension to cross the next President's desk.

So America will recover by raising taxes on the rich. Because President Obama was smart enough to game the table so that that one thing, at least, would be certain to happen.

Edit: And since I keep saying this everywhere else, I might as well say it here. Unless your friends and family are fabulously wealthy, they can actually pay themselves by voting all-Democratic or by staying home this year. That is because the Democrats and the President want an extension of tax cuts for the middle class, but the GOP is blocking it.

Destroy the GOP, and we get it. Fail to do so, and they will continue to hold your tax cuts hostage in hopes of getting the rich people back on board.

Most Republicans respond favorably to the idea of making money by doing nothing. Try it.

16. Maybe another way to put it is...

... our Republican friends will be paying money in the form of higher taxes to elect Republicans.

Don't call 'em stupid when you tell them this. Instead, tell them Grover Fucking Norquist is calling them stupid. I won't link to his site, but there you can find the Taxpayer Protection Pledge and the list of signers for 2012--virtually all Republicans in Congress.

Then, on July 27, 2012, virtually all Republicans in the Senate (except the ones in tight races) voted against a middle class tax cut extension, guaranteeing that taxes for average Americans will rise an average of $1600 a year next year. It passed anyway.

Four days later, on August 1, 2012, virtually all Republicans in the House voted down the measure, killing it.

That means that damned near every single Republican in Congress voted to raise taxes on damned near every single Republican voter--and all the rest of us, too. It is because they are evil, and bought by the super-wealthy to protect their interests alone. All that tax talk was just bullshit, and they hosed all of us.

A responsible voter would walk into the polls on election day and vote all-D, ensuring that a retroactive extension for the middle class can be easily passed even before President Obama's first term ends.

But we're talking Republicans, here, so the wiser choice may be to advise them to stay home and pay themselves.

28. ..about the Pasha parable...

The key to making the Repubs understand it is that the Pasha bought an economic system that could not be sustained...similarly, the Repubs are buying into (and consequently selling to the middle-class) an economic system that cannot be sustained.

The economic system itself works...to an extent...and only to the extent that it can be made self-sustaining by balancing out the risks and rewards...the present system places all the risk on the 99% and all the reward on the 1%....that's what has to change.

29. I was using it more for the math involved...something can start out small

38. I know

but once the repubs understand the consequences ("getting quickly out of hand) then they have to know how to solve it (fix the unsustainable system...one grain of rice doubling for each square on the board...)

30. Great! Send it to Paul Krugman and see what he says!?

32. Excellent, excellent response.

On a different tack, the issue of "taking from the rich what's rightfully/legally theirs" is usually presented by the billionaire apologists as a matter of principle--of ethics, you might say.

What is ethical about a person born to privilege who acquires more wealth in a year than he needs in a hundreds, maybe thousands, of lifetimes while another person not born to privilege does not have basic needs (adequate shelter, nourishing food, accessible and decent healthcare) met? Let's say both people are slackers. Why is the person of wealth more deserving of taxpayer dollars (tax loopholes, tax breaks, defining taxes) than the person of poverty?

Practically speaking, the person of poverty will recycle the tax dollars into the economy while the privileged person will hoard it.

And what about the working person who has basic needs met? At any given time, that person is subject to transition to poverty (at the whims of the privileged) while the privileged person will never meet that fate.

So how does personal risk play a role in the billionaire apologist's "principles"? It's ignored. Only property rights matter. Or, as we used to say when I was kid, "It's my ball so I make the rules of the game."

34. Give yourself a hearty pat on the back.

36. WOW! You are rightfully proud of that.

The food hoarding comparison was spot on. Hell, the whole damn thing is a masterpiece. Well done! This is one of the rare times I wish I was on Facebook so I could share it. Hope you don't mind if I copy and forward it in an email to some like-minded (and not-so-like-minded) folks.

40. renie, would you mind if I post some of this to my Facebook page?

I have a bunch of right-wing "friends" (even had to de-friend one of them once for being just too bat-shit crazy for me). This is the first thing I've read that doesn't push hot-buttons or just piss them off in the first sentence (which I am guilty of occasionally.

51. I like this very much, because you are explaining something that a lot of people don't understand.

I think that many people assume that money and wealth are more passive than they actually are, TTE, the wealthy just have big "piles" of money and they don't think about the fact that money has traits and functional characteristics that give it properties that can be likened to increasing mass/gravity. As you can see, I'm not explaining this as well as you did.

I have been thinking for a while that we need a way to talk about this. You did a very good job of accomplishing that. I hope you'll share widely.

64. He seemed to consider the long version.

I think because it wasn't 'in his face'.

I tried really hard to keep it neutral. I have a pretty quick switch and can get damn snarky, damn fast. He has pissed me off way more than once, but what I figured out was that getting mad wasn't doing me any good. So I decided to try to explain that it isn't that I want to punish rich people for being rich or anything like that. He said that he had never really thought about it the way I explained it and that he was going to have to ponder what I had said. Previously he would just dismiss everything I said out of hand.

58. Kick. Such a brilliant argument. :) NT

60. Great argument. You all might like "Progress and Poverty" by Henry George.

"Why There Are Recessions And Poverty Amid Plenty- And What To Do About It! One of the world's best-selling books on political economy edited and abridged for modern readers. Many economists and politicians foster the illusion that great fortunes and poverty stem from the presence or absence of individual skill and risk-taking. Henry George, by contrast, showed that the wealth gap occurs because a few people are allowed to monopolize natural opportunities and deny them to others. George did not advocate equality of income, the forcible redistribution of wealth, or government management of the economy. He simply believed that in a society not burdened by the demands of a privileged elite, a full and satisfying life would be attainable by everyone."