If it's too mundane, predictable and overdone, then why play a paladin?

That's what a paladin IS, a man defined by his ideals, one not willing to compromise them and take the easy path, someone who is willing to fight for others and be selfless.

That's what the code is there for, it's a representation of that willingness, it's not a binding contract, it's a lifestyle choice they choose to abide by.

What makes it fresh and interesting is the individual character, and how they BECOME one of these people.

Take my paladin; He's a Wiscrani, son of a minor noble from the House of Thrune and her former revolutionary husband, a wine merchant who abandoned his ethics for an easy life. They were fond of travel, feeling it made them cosmopolitan, but in turn this caused their son to develop some funny ideas about the lower classes and how they should be treated. He's nyctophobic, due to having been out on the streets after curfew and watching the Shadowbeasts shred a childhood friend.

He's not fond of fighting, due to a stint in the Chelish army where he was assigned to battlefield medic. He attempted to save an Andoren soldier who was apparently gravely injured, only to be stabbed in the gut, by the same soldier, relegating Matthias to the rear.

He returned home to the simmering disappointment of his parents, whom did accept his considerable skill as a surgeon, and sent him off to an acquaintance of theirs, a noted doctor, whom, in addition to his other talents, proved to be a powerful necromancer.

The shy paladin-to-be did his master's b#+!~-work for a number of years, until in the end, he got sick of all the cruelty he witnessed at his master's hand, fled that night, stealing a stack of scrolls, including his master's personalized formula for lichdom, and has spent the last year, wandering from place to place, trying to keep ahead of his former master, in an attempt to avoid bystanders being hurt.

On his way through Lastwall, he met a group of the knights of Ozem, whom he studied with,...

No, that's also awesome, note I din't say I would think these things but my co GM might. If I was as creative as yourself or Ash it wouldn't be a problem.

This thread, the "Fantasy" thread, and the Optimizing thread seem to be blending together weirdly.

In the voice of your favorite commercial or action trailer guy.

This years summer blockbuster. Commoner Commandos in Killer Kobold Cavern! Watch the world's most thrilling action adventure comedy romance drama horror documentary as the most ruthless commoners square off against the legion of imperialist Nazi Super Kobolds, led by the red dragon Adolf Von Wolfenbadguystein the Giest and his elite royal guard, as they attempt to rescue their friend Deim Makesmefall Evertyme from the clutches of the vilest villains of villainy!

Starting Farmer McOwnage and his Daughter Candice "Eyespike" McOwnage.Cuts to scene"Papa, are we in trouble!?" - "No dear, I still have three radishes in my back pocket and a potion of heroism!" - "Awesome! Let's go kick some nazi kobold ass!" Commoners go into a mass scene of kobold killing and improvised turnip kung-fu.

With supporting actor Miranda Bardsong. Cuts to scene"You under estimate me because I'm a bard, but what you don't realize is that while you've been paying attention to my speech you missed the part where you're already dead." Suddenly the round helmed kobold's face splits in half.

And returning to the big screen, Drizzt Du'Urden. Cuts to scene "All my life I've had people hate me for no reason, other than because my books are better than they are. Well no more! Now you'll know why Rangers get two-weapon fighting because of me!"

With an all star cast of villains including...

Josephine "Sexytusk" the Orc Bard...

Omfg Ash between that and the damned cross dressing Monk post I think you might be my single favorite author on this site...LQTMS. Awesome stuff, just...mind bending!

@Ciretose No definitely not, I think though that some talented authors here have outlined ways to avoid that and have fun, and anyone considering the class but having doubts on those grounds could be swayed by reading said posts contained herein.

Eh, I dunno. Seems to me that despite the sound of the thread title, the vast majority of us here really seem to like and appreciate the Paladin, and most folks who have said things negative about Paladins were commenting more on stupid players than the Paladin themselves.

We're all one happy family in this thread. Full of hugs, and love, and rainbows. Would you like a cookie Ciretose-man?

I almost always liked paladins, and I think that is partly because I never pictured them as lawful stupid.
But then again, my first encounter was with a group of natural were-bears in kilts and equipped with claymores, all sitting round a giant table in a hotel on our way to the next adventure. They were drinking loads of alcoholic beverages that would make lesser men cry without flinching and generally behaved like a group of metalheads in their favourite bar...

Yeah, this wasn't very helpful or even entertaining, but I guess everything worth pointing out has been outpointed (^^) and this just stresses the fact that everyone has had a first impression of a certain class. If you can't get rid of this impression for better or worse, creativity will die.

@Ciretose No definitely not, I think though that some talented authors here have outlined ways to avoid that and have fun, and anyone considering the class but having doubts on those grounds could be swayed by reading said posts contained herein.

Avoid what? The restrictions?

Just because you are able to do interesting things within the restrictions doesn't mean they aren't restrictions.

Haiku is a great form of poetry, based around restrictions. No one would argue Haiku isn't art nor would they argue it isn't restrictive.

The Paladin is a class that has a lot of restrictions. You can view those restrictions positively or negatively, but they exist.

I personally don't enjoy playing Paladins, I know lots of people who find the structure to be exciting and embrace it.

The solution isn't to "avoid" restrictions anymore than the solution to fixing a Haiku would be to just use a few more syllables this time.

I almost always liked paladins, and I think that is partly because I never pictured them as lawful stupid.

But then again, my first encounter was with a group of natural were-bears in kilts and equipped with claymores, all sitting round a giant table in a hotel on our way to the next adventure. They were drinking loads of alcoholic beverages that would make lesser men cry without flinching and generally behaved like a group of metalheads in their favourite bar...

@Ciretose No definitely not, I think though that some talented authors here have outlined ways to avoid that and have fun, and anyone considering the class but having doubts on those grounds could be swayed by reading said posts contained herein.

Avoid what? The restrictions?

Probably not. I don't think anyone here has avoided the Paladin restrictions. I'm pretty sure that you can't, in fact.

I may be running a winter-themed adventure in the future. These guys sound perfect for the barbarian-heavy northern region of my world where much of the campaign will take place. Could be some interesting, unlikely allies for the party.

Recently, there have been a number of threads on the Code of a Paladin on the Paizo boards. It has been rather surprising to me how many people appear to want to treat this Code as merely a mechanic of the class to justify the raw power of the Paladin. That isn't the point of the Paladin's Code of Conduct. It should not be merely a means to off-set those parts of the class that grant power. Abiding for a set of rules only to gain power is not what a Paladin is about; in fact, it is the antithesis of what a Paladin is.

The origin of the Paladin was based on the knights of Charlemagne, and on Sir Galahad from the Arthurian legends. Such beliefs are not suited for everyone: neither Arthur himself, nor Lancelot, nor any other of his Knights of the Round Table were Paladins. Because the path of a Paladin is a hard path to follow. It is an act of faith and belief that the Paladin must live, everyday, so that he is true to himself.

The Paladin's Code is (rather, that it should be) a guide for how they live their life. It is with good reason that Paladin's are restricted to a Lawful Good alignment. This is because the Paladin (above and beyond all other classes) is a character of staunch moral and ethical beliefs, who sacrifices his own freedom of actions (of choices) to uphold a higher sacred trust.

Paladins are not just fighters by another name; they are more than a knight in shining armor. They are (or should be) pious and virtuous, honorable and merciful, charitable and chivalrous. In all things. Acting in such a fashion should not be something a person who plays a Paladin should view as a restriction upon his actions, it is merely the way which a Paladin (the character) lives his life, because that is who and what he is. A Lawful Good man...

EDIT: Remembered an idea I had for a paladin once. It was a "practical" (read: pragmatic) paladin. His idea of a good battle plan involved himself being in the middle of the road the enemy army traveled on, and shouting a challenge to them. Meanwhile his allies were in the foliage waiting to ambush them while the morons tried to pick off the "lone, stupid knight-man". Divided forces = easier fight.

His reasoning? "Two things. One, I can heal myself and fight as well as anyone else. I'm perfect for drawing the bait. Two...if they really are dumb enough to think I'm alone, they almost deserve to be ambushed like this."

I may be running a winter-themed adventure in the future. These guys sound perfect for the barbarian-heavy northern region of my world where much of the campaign will take place. Could be some interesting, unlikely allies for the party.

1) The code is toxic using the general European understanding of honorable conduct.

2) The class is not balanced against the other martials, with the excuse that the roleplay is a drawback. Either that or the designers forgot that most powerful enemies are evil.

The latter means GMs are encouraged to hammer the former to make up the power differential with other martials.

The solution I think I prefer is twofold.

1) Remove all references to honor. Honor is one of the devil's big lies (Asmodeus in Golarion, whatever devil is a big enough deal to merit the definite article in other settings). Honor is about pride and inflexibility and antithetical to helping people and punishing evil in most adventuring contexts.

2) Give all classes except the monk and the full casters two good saves. Barbarians should probably get reflex and rogues and cavaliers will. Fighters could go for either second save, but I think I prefer will. This reduces saving throw advantage so paladins don't need to be punished for being a powerful class.

Or you could replace the code with the first edition wealth restriction. If divine grace and weapon bond effectively come out of their magic budget they fall in line with other martial classes.

EDIT: Remembered an idea I had for a paladin once. It was a "practical" (read: pragmatic) paladin. His idea of a good battle plan involved himself being in the middle of the road the enemy army traveled on, and shouting a challenge to them. Meanwhile his allies were in the foliage waiting to ambush them while the morons tried to pick off the "lone, stupid knight-man". Divided forces = easier fight.

I actually played a paladin like this a while back on my old NWN server. Orthos prolly remembers this. Anyways, I played her as very pragmatic and def. not stupid. Sadly this caused several people to question her paladinhood and how "unfair" it was to play her this ways. Those people always amused me.

I may be running a winter-themed adventure in the future. These guys sound perfect for the barbarian-heavy northern region of my world where much of the campaign will take place. Could be some interesting, unlikely allies for the party.

EDIT: Remembered an idea I had for a paladin once. It was a "practical" (read: pragmatic) paladin. His idea of a good battle plan involved himself being in the middle of the road the enemy army traveled on, and shouting a challenge to them. Meanwhile his allies were in the foliage waiting to ambush them while the morons tried to pick off the "lone, stupid knight-man". Divided forces = easier fight.

I actually played a paladin like this a while back on my old NWN server. Orthos prolly remembers this. Anyways, I played her as very pragmatic and def. not stupid. Sadly this caused several people to question her paladinhood and how "unfair" it was to play her this ways. Those people always amused me.

"Paladins should not be allowed to take Knockdown!"

My paladin on the server I play on now has Called Shot and abuses it mercilessly, as well as Knockdown. STR/DEX damage for everybody!

EDIT: Remembered an idea I had for a paladin once. It was a "practical" (read: pragmatic) paladin. His idea of a good battle plan involved himself being in the middle of the road the enemy army traveled on, and shouting a challenge to them. Meanwhile his allies were in the foliage waiting to ambush them while the morons tried to pick off the "lone, stupid knight-man". Divided forces = easier fight.

I actually played a paladin like this a while back on my old NWN server. Orthos prolly remembers this. Anyways, I played her as very pragmatic and def. not stupid. Sadly this caused several people to question her paladinhood and how "unfair" it was to play her this ways. Those people always amused me.

"Paladins should not be allowed to take Knockdown!"

My paladin on the server I play on now has Called Shot and abuses it mercilessly, as well as Knockdown.

Haha!

I didn't PK your toon that much. You usually avoided me like the plague :D

EDIT: Remembered an idea I had for a paladin once. It was a "practical" (read: pragmatic) paladin. His idea of a good battle plan involved himself being in the middle of the road the enemy army traveled on, and shouting a challenge to them. Meanwhile his allies were in the foliage waiting to ambush them while the morons tried to pick off the "lone, stupid knight-man". Divided forces = easier fight.

I actually played a paladin like this a while back on my old NWN server. Orthos prolly remembers this. Anyways, I played her as very pragmatic and def. not stupid. Sadly this caused several people to question her paladinhood and how "unfair" it was to play her this ways. Those people always amused me.

"Paladins should not be allowed to take Knockdown!"

My paladin on the server I play on now has Called Shot and abuses it mercilessly, as well as Knockdown.

Haha!

I didn't PK your toon that much. You usually avoided me like the plague :D

That was more because Margola was wretchedly built. I was a noob back then. She didn't get 9th level spells until Epic because her Wisdom was too low. I survived purely on luck and traveling with people better built than me =P

So yeah, I stayed out of fights because I knew I couldn't win, heh. I got better with later characters, but they avoided fighting the pallies for completely different reasons. (Kendaku might have survived a little longer than the rest, depending on whose axe crit first, hers or Kay's hehe.)

Sharra, my savage paladin, was my character in the Dragonlance world. I blatantly stole ideas from Tarzan; she was the child of a minor noble whose boat was wrecked on a remote island, she was raised by the local tribe, and became a fur-wearing, spear-wielding paladin of the local panther god.

I thought she was very cool (YMMV) and I put a lot of work into her. When I introduced her to the group I hoped people would like her but would understand if people thought, 'Meh'. But the reaction I got was 'She's not a real paladin!'

My experiecnes are similar to Vuron. The big problem imo is how badly described the alignments are. If it was not the player going around acting like his paladin was a dirty harry clone who would go through the good guys to get to the bad guy. Even when the good guys were hired to defend the bad guy. It was the annoying LG paladins that kept getting on everyone nerves with "you can't do this it's not within a LG alignment. That's why when I took a break from playing AD&D and switched to Palladium Fantasy for awhile it was so much easier to have a paladin in the game.

The alignments and what you can do with the alignemnts are clearly defined and explained. So players who played paladins poorly when I ran the game either go up and left angry because I could actually point to their alignments and go "sorry no you can't go through the city watch guarding the bad guy." As according to the princepled alignment. Only break the law if it's truly a desperate emergency. Simply being a evil bad guy is not a emergency. Same thing with the ones who went around going. "you can't do this it's a evil act. You can't take stuff from dead bodies". I would consult the other players alignment and point out that yes they can take stuff from dead bodies.

Before anyone screams bloody murder and that having a codified alignment system does not work. Well imo it does. Never ever had trouble in Palladium fantasy with alignements. Every now and then always have trouble with alignments in D&D. Since the descriptions are too open ended and vague.

1) The code is toxic using the general European understanding of honorable conduct.

2) The class is not balanced against the other martials, with the excuse that the roleplay is a drawback. Either that or the designers forgot that most powerful enemies are evil.

The latter means GMs are encouraged to hammer the former to make up the power differential with other martials.

The solution I think I prefer is twofold.

1) Remove all references to honor. Honor is one of the devil's big lies (Asmodeus in Golarion, whatever devil is a big enough deal to merit the definite article in other settings). Honor is about pride and inflexibility and antithetical to helping people and punishing evil in most adventuring contexts.

2) Give all classes except the monk and the full casters two good saves. Barbarians should probably get reflex and rogues and cavaliers will. Fighters could go for either second save, but I think I prefer will. This reduces saving throw advantage so paladins don't need to be punished for being a powerful class.

Or you could replace the code with the first edition wealth restriction. If divine grace and weapon bond effectively come out of their magic budget they fall in line with other martial classes.

I agree to much of this, but the notion that paladins are more powerful? I dunno about that. as most fighters in any given game can out-trounce the paladin in 9 out of 10 cases.

Honor is one of the devil's big lies (Asmodeus in Golarion, whatever devil is a big enough deal to merit the definite article in other settings). Honor is about pride and inflexibility and antithetical to helping people and punishing evil in most adventuring contexts.

Spoken like a true Chaotic Good/Neutral character. An LG one of course would probably disagree. I know mine do.

Honor is one of the devil's big lies (Asmodeus in Golarion, whatever devil is a big enough deal to merit the definite article in other settings). Honor is about pride and inflexibility and antithetical to helping people and punishing evil in most adventuring contexts.

Spoken like a true Chaotic Good/Neutral character. An LG one of course would probably disagree. I know mine do.

Toshiro, my tian Paladin/Monk of Irori would as well. Honor is the virtue that allows you to be all your can be. In service, in sacrifice, in guidance, in leadership... it compels you to honestly reflect upon yourself and your actions, to always measure your ideas and goals to a higher standard. It is what fuels the heart and moves the hand.

Played him in Serpent Skull. By level 5, he led the party without ever having to ask for it. By level 8 he led an entire expedition. Not once did he ask for it. But when he was required to step up, he did so without hesitation, and never betrayed trust. By level 10, the non-evil rival factions were so full of respect for him that he united them all to fight a common enemy. Then he got decapitated on a random Critical Hit card... honor does not help there :/

yup, haven't seen a thread devoted to this yet.'Love Paladins, don't care for the alignment restriction, but I see alot of people either citing Paladins as jerks at the game table, or mentioning"lawful stupid",debating the code like it's a straight jacket rather than a tool for roleplaying and otherwise degrading this majestic and dignified class, steeped in prestige and history,both in rpg's and in legend. So tell me this, is all this hatred of Paladins simply because people want to be "bad" nowadays and this is a better way than going out and breaking laws for real, or is it that the paladin is broken in one direction(too powerful) or another(too weak)? Point being ultimately, Why all the Paladin hate?

Paladins is a really cool guy. He bubbles hearths and doesn't afraid of anything

Honor is one of the devil's big lies (Asmodeus in Golarion, whatever devil is a big enough deal to merit the definite article in other settings). Honor is about pride and inflexibility and antithetical to helping people and punishing evil in most adventuring contexts.

Spoken like a true Chaotic Good/Neutral character. An LG one of course would probably disagree. I know mine do.

Toshiro, my tian Paladin/Monk of Irori would as well. Honor is the virtue that allows you to be all your can be. In service, in sacrifice, in guidance, in leadership... it compels you to honestly reflect upon yourself and your actions, to always measure your ideas and goals to a higher standard. It is what fuels the heart and moves the hand.

Played him in Serpent Skull. By level 5, he led the party without ever having to ask for it. By level 8 he led an entire expedition. Not once did he ask for it. But when he was required to step up, he did so without hesitation, and never betrayed trust. By level 10, the non-evil rival factions were so full of respect for him that he united them all to fight a common enemy. Then he got decapitated on a random Critical Hit card... honor does not help there :/

I think paladins are more powerful against the evil BBEG at the end of the campaign than the tricked out fighter, but in general the fighter will indeed have more pooch, unless he's evil in which case the Paladin will smoke him too.

Honor is one of the devil's big lies (Asmodeus in Golarion, whatever devil is a big enough deal to merit the definite article in other settings). Honor is about pride and inflexibility and antithetical to helping people and punishing evil in most adventuring contexts.

Spoken like a true Chaotic Good/Neutral character. An LG one of course would probably disagree. I know mine do.

Toshiro, my tian Paladin/Monk of Irori would as well. Honor is the virtue that allows you to be all your can be. In service, in sacrifice, in guidance, in leadership... it compels you to honestly reflect upon yourself and your actions, to always measure your ideas and goals to a higher standard. It is what fuels the heart and moves the hand.

None of that has anything to do with honor.

Honesty and justice are their own independent virtues. And they're not absolute. Honesty can be made to serve evil. Justice untempered by mercy can not be called good.

Honor is saying "I am willing to risk evil triumphing because I have hangups about certain kinds of behavior." Honor is saying "Lies of omission and deliberately misleading semantics games aren't lies because I need to uphold a black and white code in gray situations and sometimes giving truth to evil men is an evil act." I'm pretty sure Irori would frown on such lawyerly self deception. Any good or lawful deity should.

Honor is about appearances, not substance.

Worse along with lies poison is mentioned as an example of dishonorable behavior. That means that as well as pride it encompasses gentlemanly conduct. Gentlemanly conduct in violent contexts is just a mechanism for the nobles, who are usually the evils that need punishing because evil commoners actually get punished by the normal judicial system, from commoners, who are usually the innocents that need a paladin's aid because non-evil nobles tend to have more resources to take care of their own problems.

Poison is part of a class of dishonorable tools that allow such oppressed groups as women, servants, peasants, and tradesmen to do harm to their knightly oppressors. What matters is not whether the weapon is honorable, but whether the killing is justified. When an usurper kills a legitimate and just lord on the field of battle it is honorable but evil and chaotic. When a servant poisons the usurper to restore the legitimate heir it is dishonorable but lawful and good.

Honor is reflected in integrity, and is a motivator to act in accordance with ideals. If your integrity is shallow and self-serving(non-good/evil), you twist honor to be a tool for subjugation and self-preservation.

To me, honor is the sum of virtues, be they heinous or good. And a paladin is sworn to uphold a Lawful Good ideal, so his virtues must reflect this, and thus, his honor is measured by that standard.

Evil people will kill a girl that has done nothing but defied them, and claim she insulted their honor, or call it an "honor-killing". But that is perversion of honor. Just like applying unfair laws may be disguised as "justice", but most knows what actual justice is.

Played my first Paladin in a game 3 months ago, its a 1st ed game so the class is pretty much set in stone. I can't play one at all, im hopeless. Charge in to the fray if evil is afoot, try to turn them to the good side first, bury ANY dead you come across, save the damsel and protect her, try to covert anybody to you're cause..the list goes on...fail to do any of the bove and you lose favour with the higher power and time for penance. ughh not my play style at all. Thought I would try something different..bad idea. I was atoning nearly every day and nearly lost my faith once.

Played my first Paladin in a game 3 months ago, its a 1st ed game so the class is pretty much set in stone. I can't play one at all, im hopeless. Charge in to the fray if evil is afoot, try to turn them to the good side first, bury ANY dead you come across, save the damsel and protect her, try to covert anybody to you're cause..the list goes on...fail to do any of the bove and you lose favour with the higher power and time for penance. ughh not my play style at all. Thought I would try something different..bad idea. I was atoning nearly every day and nearly lost my faith once.

At least thats the way our DM set it out anyway.

Give me a rogue, ranger or thick fighter/barbarian anyday.

I'm now tainted!

Shame as im sure the PF version is great.

Saw a lot of that from DMs in earlier editions! But somehow they didn't require clerics of the same gods to do any converting without losing their powers...!

Played my first Paladin in a game 3 months ago, its a 1st ed game so the class is pretty much set in stone. I can't play one at all, im hopeless. Charge in to the fray if evil is afoot, try to turn them to the good side first, bury ANY dead you come across, save the damsel and protect her, try to covert anybody to you're cause..the list goes on...fail to do any of the bove and you lose favour with the higher power and time for penance. ughh not my play style at all. Thought I would try something different..bad idea. I was atoning nearly every day and nearly lost my faith once.

At least thats the way our DM set it out anyway.

Give me a rogue, ranger or thick fighter/barbarian anyday.

I'm now tainted!

Shame as im sure the PF version is great.

Saw a lot of that from DMs in earlier editions! But somehow they didn't require clerics of the same gods to do any converting without losing their powers...!

Which is bizarre to me since, y'know, Clerics are the PRIESTS. Paladins are supposed to be out there smiting evil and defending the church, it's the clerics who are supposed to be doing the preaching.

Saw a lot of that from DMs in earlier editions! But somehow they didn't require clerics of the same gods to do any converting without losing their powers...!

Clerics never got such restrictive codes. There was no gameplay mechanic for taking away powers for them the way there was for clerics. (A cleric of a LG deity could shift from LG to NG with little problem, for instance.)

Clerics get more power out of their deity than paladins do, and I don't think paladins are actually stronger than fighters (not since 3e anyway). Still, I don't think it's ever a good idea to try to "balance" game power with RP. The setting should take care of that. A paladin who violates their code could get thrown out of their order, but they should still be able to adventure.

He did do it to my evil cleric in one adventure though. I can't remember what I did but I lost my powers and needed to atone to gain them back. I must admit I did screw the DM's plans up in the end and felt bad about it, the rest of the party found it funny though so did the DM afterwards.

The next room we found ourselves in had tables of food and drink and a pretty woman sitting on a chair at the head of the table. Well..whats an evil cleric losing his powers suppossed to do..I lept across the table drew my knife and slit her throat as a sacrifce to said god. The DM was agog..it was the quest giver. He allowed it as it was in keeping with the cleric and I got my powers back but he had some hasty thinking to do.

I love paladins. The first character (this one, in fact!) I ever played for Pathfinder was a paladin - of LN Hades, at that. She was probably overly a traditional stick in the mud - I blame my newbie status for that, and I think I'd play her a bit differently were I to pick her up again. But she was a blast for the short time I played her.

I don't see the problem with requiring an alignment and a code of honor. I think it's a fun challenge. But then...I *like* it when a good character is clearly good. Moral ambiguity's fun and all, but it's almost refreshing to see paladins what with all these antihereoes around (Lookin' at you, Batman).

Only when there's a clear miscommunication between the paladin and everyone else as to what that means. ...And the fact that everyone but the paladin thinks making them fall is hilarious. Very glad I didn't have that sort of group, but I've heard horror stories.