So some background, we've been married almost 15 years. Our oldest daughter is 14, younger son is 10. My wife is currently a SAHM and has been for the past decade. I feel like she's going through a personal crisis right now where our youngest has become fiercely independent and so is our oldest, so she feels like she's losing her babies. Nonetheless, I think the way she's dealing with it is very harmful to our kids and I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place because she refuses to get any therapy/counseling (believe me I've tried) and our kids are becoming increasingly distant from their overbearing mother. I can only do so much to mediate things but I'm feeling stuck.

Our daughter, basically in the past year, has made a very close group of friends and they like to have girls sleepovers every Friday. It's a great development from elementary where she had very few friends and felt lonely. She's at the age where she likes to do things with her friends alone (like see movies, go to the mall, etc) and what I always do is drop her off and pick her up at a predetermined time. This is what all her friends' parents do as well.

Anyways, recently my wife has gotten more and more upset because she wants to join our daughter on their sleepovers. At first it started off as my wife wanting our daughter to host all sleepovers at our house, which was fine, but daughter quickly changed her mind when she realized mom was there ALL the time. I tried to make her come upstairs with me and just hang out in the kitchen/living room/whatever while the girls played in the basement downstairs but my wife refused. She HAD to be down there with the rest of the girls, she'd even bring down her own blankets/pillows to sleep with them. Obviously our daughter was upset and embarrassed and now refuses to have sleepovers at our own house. Wife is in denial about why though and insists that it's because daughter's friends are too bossy.

So now the biggest issue has to do with my wife wanting to go with our daughter on her sleepovers away. She insists that she just wants to keep an eye on the girls and she's worried about them looking up inappropriate things on the internet or discussing inappropriate things. She says she feels the other parents aren't responsible enough and that's why she needs to go. This has been a huge thing between mom and daughter, with our daughter now actively avoiding her mom even at home.

I'm really frustrated because I tell my wife that we need to get some counseling for her anxiety/unfounded fears and yet she blows up at me. She claims that I'm not supporting her enough on this one matter (barging in on sleepovers) and that we need to be a united front to the other parents. She once showed up at our daughter's friends house (during a sleepover) demanding to be let in. I didn't even know this because she told ME she was going to the grocery store. The friends' parents flat out refused and told her to go home in a rude manner, so she came home crying to me saying that we needed to confront them as a team. I refused as well.

Honestly what is left for me to do if my wife A) refuses therapy/counseling for her fears and B) won't listen to reason when it comes to why she can't join teenagers' sleepovers? She's also perpetually mad at me for not siding with her, even though I tell her I think she's being really unfair and exhibiting bad parenting to our two kids, who have really pulled away from her in the past 2 years as a result of her steamrolling over their growing independence.

What is left to do??

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tldr-- Wife insists on joining our teenage daughter on her sleepovers with friends. Daughter is embarrassed and distant from mom, and wife is angry I'm not supporting her enough on this. I'm stuck because wife also refuses all therapy for her unfounded fears and anxieties. What can I do still?

Your wife needs a life of her own and probably therapy. A lot of women who’s whole identity is being a mom struggle when their kids hit 8th grade or so. I watched it happen to my mom, she was angry and bitter that we didn’t “need” her anymore.

It’s like she has a warped view of everything that’s gone on to make her 100% faultless. When the incident happened with her confronting the friends parents wanting to be let in, daughter ended up ignoring her mom for a week. I begged my wife to apologize, because daughter was rightfully humiliated, but my wife thought SHE deserved an apology from daughter because daughter didn’t come to the door and didn’t answer her calls and the parents didn’t let her in their house. She said daughter humiliated her and so she deserves the apology.

I wish he had answered this because it's really hard to tell if he he is just saying "Honey, you NEED to get therapy" or "Honey, this is absolutely wrong. You cannot interfere in every aspect of our daughters personal life because it is creating immense social distress. If you honestly can't see how that is even possible, then I will demand that we seek family counseling because I refuse to allow your behavior to continuing affecting our child".

It sounds to me like he has been extremely frank and perhaps that’s why she is rejecting the information. If it’s too painful to accept, our brain finds alternative narratives. It’s extremely hard to do with a spouse but what she needs is a calm conversation with plenty of time where she can talk openly about what she’s feeling. There are contradictions and I actually think they need to be gently but firmly highlighted. There’s a technique I learnt called the Columbo Technique, which is to confront a person without attack for example, “I feel a bit confused because on one hand you said you want your daughter to be an independent adult in the future but on the other hand you don’t feel like you can let her have any independence now” (using her words, as she says them). This is gentle but you don’t need to let her wiggle out of anything. Keep carefully and gently using logic to show confusion in what she’s saying. Confrontations don’t have to be confrontational!

Also what’s her history, relationship with family like? Can she imagine herself at her daughters age, having her mother sitting in on every occasion with friends.

Lastly, in the future perhaps they can compromise, mum no longer intrudes in friend time but daughter agrees to quality mum/daughter time once a week.

I think this woman really needs therapy but perhaps a few gentle/firm confrontations can get her there. Otherwise a frank discussion of where this ends (in both opinions) might help.

Perhaps most importantly, is she usually a reasonable person or is this just the worst of quite erratic behaviour?

Maybe you should go and see a counsellor by yourself or with your daughter, outline your wife’s behaviour and get strategies for how to deal with and perhaps coax your wife into some kind of mental health treatment.

There is a tendency on reddit to armchair diagnose narcissism, but your wife’s insistence on blaming everyone else, revising events and total lack of self-awareness may point in that direction.

I just really want to mention that if she were really a narcissist, this would have been their whole life and the husband wouldn’t be posting here he would most likely be either enabling her or also a narcissist.

I mean she’s definitely being a little crazy and exhibiting similar characteristics and I hope she gets help, but it sounds like a temporary behavior that is resolvable in the end.

I’m not trying to be nit picky, it just is hard if you have actually lived through parents with serious disorders/issues like that. Saying OPs wife might be a narcissist really downplays how abusive true narcissism is.

I'm in definite agreement on the narcissism thing. OP would had been demolished far before that and unable to see the problem. His wife is blind to her own problems and throwing fits like she's grieving.

Seems pretty common with stay at home moms. They have to deal with the loss of their identity and they don't always find the best coping methods.... I'm wondering if they have date nights and other fun stuff to do as a couple. Might help ease her into remembering who she is as a woman and not just mom? Not a therapist, but seems like a good starting point to get her to see one?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't narcissism developed rather than an inherent personality trait? As in, it's the result of nurture (or rather, the lack thereof) instead of nature? From what I've gathered it's essentially a defense mechanism gone out of hand, where the person creates a reality that is more pleasant than the one they're truly in in order to cope. The end result is someone who is self-absorbed, can do no wrong, the world is against them etc.

If so it's not entirely unlikely that a parent who has identified as "mum" for well over a decade suddenly starts acting out when the kids are starting to break free and she's "less of one" when she can't hold a clammy hand on their shoulder all the time. Not a full-blown narcissist like the subjects of r/raisedbynarcissists.

If I'm wrong, I'm afraid I'll have to find a new and palatable way to explain why my own mother is so fucked up, if she's not the result of her life...

Narcissism is talked about in this sub and others a lot as if we know a lot about it, when people who are qualified to discuss it because they have studied it in a clinical and research setting, like myself, are very cautious to say that it is poorly understood. What we do know, is that our personalities - disordered or otherwise - are largely genetically derived and we know this largely from twin studies which are actually extensive. In other words, the nature/nurture debate is not much of a debate anymore. We are largely a result of nature; of our DNA. However, we also know that this becomes much more unclear in the case of childhood abuse. This probably also has an epigenetic basis, but when you abuse a child, they can in many ways develop and number of personality traits as a result that would not have otherwise occurred.

I think this is a great point. While there are narcissists who are so deep it's undeniable, many or most of us have narcissistic tendencies at times. I don't get a hugely narcissistic vibe from this lady. I get a lonely vibe from someone who doesn't have other hobbies or excitement clinging to her children and using that as her identity

Agreed. Not a therapist or anything, but I think she’s just struggling because her identity for the last ten years or so (SAHM) is changing, which is not uncommon. She needs therapy and a hobby, maybe even eventually a job or some other way to feel she is still contributing to the family.

That’s not been my experience with my BPD mother. Anything she perceives as a rejection, exclusion, not showing loyalty, not showing preference, or doing anything she perceives as against her (which is almost everything) is met with rage, manipulation, guilt, external blaming, non apologies, and a determination to make me prove how important and loved she is to me.

She’s never been diagnosed or received treatment. I commend you for looking within and trying to improve yourself. I know that will never happen in her case. She has definitely cut off friends and family members, including me, throughout the years. When I was a teen, she never cut me off. It was just rage upon rage upon rage, guilting, blackmail and control tactics.

Uh, mate, my mother is diagnosed (by a psych) borderline PD and she wildly fluctuates her behaviour. I've publicly humiliated her several times before now (once involving the police. In public. At her job. For something illegal she did) and she still tries to regain contact with me quite persistently. No MH condition is a one size fits all "you will behave exactly like this" kinda deal. People may share a MH condition, but that doesn't make everyone the same person.

Uh, mate, my mother is diagnosed (by a psych) borderline PD and she wildly fluctuates her behaviour. I've publicly humiliated her several times before now (involving the police. In public. At her job. For something illegal she did) and she still tries to regain contact with me quite persistently. No MH condition is a one size fits all "you will behave exactly like this" kinda deal. People may share a MH condition, but that doesn't make everyone the same person.

this is excellent advice. OP its really good that you posted here, but this is NOT a minor problem. Your wives behaviour could really affect your daughter more than just acute embarrassment but likely for life. Please address it privately with your daughter now.

I just wanted to add I think counseling with the daughter and OP alone is a great idea. You can’t force someone to want to examine their own issues so the mother should only go voluntarily. OPs daughter is old enough to know something is off, if not on her own certainly by her friends and their parents pointing it out. I think it’d be great for OPs daughter to share her feelings in a neutral place, where she doesn’t have to feel guilty for hurting her mothers feelings.

Honestly I was about to say the same thing. I study psychology and unfortunately know a lot about this kind of behaviour. Op, you should also actually look at r/justnomil and r/justnofamily. It helped me realize a lot of toxic behaviour in regards to my parents. It may help you too. Counselor trips are always good too of course! Good job for not enabling her bad behaviour. I feel for you and your daughter.

Counseling for your daughter and yourself could be really helpful if your wife refuses to go. Similar to how there are family support groups for alcoholics, you can get support as family of someone with an undetermined mental issue.

The issue could be temporary or it could devolve into a more serious problem and it’s important that your daughter knows that she is doing nothing wrong. She’s probably feeling a lot of emotions over the guilt-tripping your wife is giving her

The issue could be temporary or it could revolve into a more serious problem and it’s important that your daughter knows that she is doing nothing wrong. She’s probably feeling a lot of emotions over the guilt-tripping your wife is giving her

If the wife wants to be involved in the kids life so much then taking their daughter to therapy could mean that the wife wants to "barge in" on that too, which might work out if the OP is having trouble getting his wife to go to therapy.

Brilliant!
Tell her you’ve organised ‘family therapy’. Get your daughters onboard with the plan and see a counsellor together.
Hopefully see will see she is being too overbearing, but it might have to be intervention style. Think Dr Phil.

It would be good for the whole family anyway, even if she doesn’t see herself as being wrong, you and your daughters will have tools to deal with her.

If I was your daughter I would be planning to move out at 16. It sounds home isn’t a safe place for your daughters to be themselves. (safe emotionally I mean)
Your daughters are thinking your wife doesn’t trust them, so why bother being trustworthy.

Brilliant!
Tell her you’ve organised ‘family therapy’. Get your daughters onboard with the plan and see a counsellor together.
Hopefully see will see she is being too overbearing, but it might have to be intervention style. Think Dr Phil.

It would be good for the whole family anyway, even if she doesn’t see herself as being wrong, you and your daughters will have tools to deal with her.

If I was your daughter I would be planning to move out at 16. It sounds home isn’t a safe place for your daughters to be themselves. (safe emotionally I mean)
Your daughters are thinking your wife doesn’t trust them, so why bother being trustworthy.

The alcoholic analogy is right on. As someone who dealt with exactly this issue with my mom, but with a dad who pushed the responsibility to take care of my mom—who also would never take care of herself—onto the rest of the family—it manifested as codependency as a family. My dad was enabling her by making it his/our issue to “fix”.

Codependency is often brought up in families whose members have addiction issues, but it can very well show up in those struggling with mental health issues, as well. It’s all about who takes on the responsibility for helping, fixing, and enabling the person with a problem.

Would she consider a few sessions of family therapy with all 3 or 4 of you? You could possibly phrase it as a trained, neutral third party who can help you all see each other’s perspectives and work on compromise. I agree that your wife is completely in the wrong here, but that might help get her foot in the door. She may feel less attacked.

I'm wondering this too. If OP says they're going as a family to get counselling to bring the family closer and mom is welcome to join or not, wonder if she'll insist on going then? I would be very curious if my whole family was going somewhere without me. Perhaps bring up this issue along with others not just focused on her (things the whole family can do for each other) so she doesn't feel blindsided and attacked.

she is going to end up chasing her daughter away if she keeps this up. Is that what she wants? I would remind her that in a few short years (after 16 even in some places), your daughter will get to decided if she wants to be around her mother or not. And after having her boundaries so violated, she will NOT want to be around her.

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I get your wife's fears and her crisis. I am there myself. I have a 13 year old who i desperately want to be around. But i keep myself in check - constantly. This is a VERY important age for our girls to step out of their homes, be out in the world, maybe make some mistakes. Are jobs are to be there for when they need us. Our jobs are not to be everywhere where they are. Biologically "pulling away from the umbrella of family" is very very important to your daughters development and you need to hold strong on this. Not only is your daughter not allowed to pull away, but she can't even have the same freedoms that most 6 year olds get.

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If she can't see any of this, and she thinks that she's 100% in the right, then she needs professional help.

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As for other parents not watching them the way she would - this is LIFE. As an example: I don't let my kids drink Coke or watch violent movies. So they go to a sleepover and do just that. That's life. Eventually they will be out in the world where they can do whatever they want. The important thing isn't to make sure that my kid never drinks cola or watches violent movies, the important thing is that my kid knows firmly where MY values lie without forcing it on others. You can use that for any values: drugs, alcohol, sex - all of these things are out there and we can't spend our kids teenage years making sure they never encounter the opportunities to be exposed to these things, the point is to make sure they are well equipped to know what to do when they encounter the opportunities to be exposed to them. And the most important thing is that they have loving parents for when they get home and want to talk about it.

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Another example: we have a very sweet, well behaved daughter who happens to have a very old friend who is totally going down the wrong path in life. We have very limited contact with this girl, but once she came by and wanted to take our daughter out somewhere. We let her knowing she was going to see a world we didn't exactly approve of. My daughter went and there was smoking and boys and all sorts of shenanigans going on. She tried a cigarette and then realized she didn't belong there and came straight home to tell us all about it, to share her opinion on what went down. She knew that we wouldn't judge her friend or her so that we could all talk openly about it. And thats really the end goal!

We let her knowing she was going to see a world we didn't exactly approve of. My daughter went and there was smoking and boys and all sorts of shenanigans going on. She tried a cigarette and then realized she didn't belong there and came straight home to tell us all about it, to share her opinion on what went down. She knew that we wouldn't judge her friend or her so that we could all talk openly about it

thanks but i stumbled onto it by accident! I used to be much more control freak but we have a kid who is drawn to risk/adrenalin combined with an enormous curiosity and also wants to be friends with EVERYONE. I had to figure out pretty quickly that she was a curious kid who was drawn to the thrills (and "exciting" people) and had to adjust my parenting ASAP so that at least she always has a safe non-judgemental place to come back to.

Have you spent any solo time with your daughter? There might be even more going on you don’t know about. Perhaps you could have a date night the next time your daughter has a sleepover away. I’m worried she will lose her friends on account of her mothers behaviour

Unfortunately you are going to have to draw a very hard line for your wife. Her behind alarming. Let her know that if she doesn’t get counselling, you’ll be leaving with the kids. They need a healthy set of parents and right now they’re not getting that. I’ve got to ask though, have you ignored this red flag for 15 years? This may be the person that your wife is. She may not change, even with therapy. You need to do right by your kids before they start acting out in retaliation.

I don't normally believe ultimatums are a good way of resolving issues in a relationship but to me this isn't about solving issues but getting your wife some much needed help. Are there any of her close relatives that can back you up in telling her she needs some serious counseling? I think it's honestly time to have an intervention. Your wife sounds like she's getting increasingly unbalanced.

PREFACE: I think your wife sounds mental. However, you're married to her and your daughter is her child. With that comes expectations of respect and responsibility.

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...so, your daughter should never ignore her Mom's phone calls or not come to her Mom when called. That's just basic disrespect UNLESS there has been agreed upon rules that when at a sleepover daughter won't respond if Mom arrives and will check in via phone at x hour but besides that will be unavailable until the pre-agreed upon time.

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My father would've murdered me if I had ever treated him so disrespectfully and your daughter DOES need to apologize to her Mom for not treating her respectfully. On one hand, it'd be great if you could unilaterally make those rules...but then you're disrespecting your wife.

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Your Wife is right that you do need to present a united front. My position if I were you would be she either does couple's counseling with you around these issues plus individual counseling (which you volunteer to do as well to be fair) and until then if one parent says no sleepovers, guess what, no sleepovers.

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Just because you (and I) don't agree with her, doesn't mean it's okay to communicate to your kids that they don't need to listen to her, that you have their side, and that you agree she's acting nuts. That's part of the shit part of getting married; your attitude and understanding of 'normal' is no longer the only one that counts. Yes, I think she's being bizarre, but if she feels she can't trust her daughter alone with her friends then that's her position and you need to engage with it rather than ignore it as crazy.

I disagree with some of this. Under normal circumstances I would agree, but her behavior is unhealthy and disrespectful of her daughter. Children are people too and while, under normal circumstances, parents have their best interests at heart and they should absolutely respect them, that’s not what’s happening here. My mother humiliated me repeatedly in a similar matter, is undiagnosed borderline, and manipulated me to believe she was right on everything. She wasn’t and I’ve had to go to therapy several times for issues relating to her behavior and the fact that no one else stood up for me or supported me during her abuses. Because the daughters father is standing up for her means that the daughter will probably keep a healthy relationship with him and have far less issues. She’ll see that this is not normal behavior and that she shouldn’t accept it just because she’s her mom. Parents are people too and aren’t always right. I think it’s important to acknowledge the crazy behavior so that kids don’t repeat it or accept that kind of behavior in future relationships, which happened to me. If they are to present a united front then the wife should also compromise and listen to his suggestions, it shouldn’t be that he’s the only one compromising. It sounds like he’s having a tough time just communicating with her.

Presenting a united front is going to teach the daughter that she can't trust OP, either, because he'd be enabling his wife. Usually I think spouses need to come first but not to the detriment of kids, and sometimes the kid needs to take precedent.

This. She needs a job, a hobby, an art class, anything. If she doesn’t, she will RUIN your daughters young adult life, and your daughter will never forgive her for being a helicopter mother. It has taken me over a decade and a half to forgive my mom for being a helicopter mother, and that was only through years of therapy.

Obviously but therapy and medication only do so much good if you come hone and have all the time in the world on your hands 🙄 if she’s working, she’s not on her phone harassing her daughter. If she’s in a class, she’s busy thinking about the task at hand.

Yeah plus she won't go to therapy. She might be more convinced to go to an art class or join a club. She could maybe even volunteer so she feels needed. Plus lots of people give up on meds when they don't instantly work. The other commenter is seemingly overlooking that this woman is stubborn

Life projects and mental health are related. This mom has been nothing but a mom. So mom's identity is entirely defined by her importance to her children which is now lost. That loss is a crisis because she lacks other valuable and purposeful identities to engage with as her children grow independent. She is not needed at her career, valued for a skill or talent, or engaged in service to a noble cause.

She has only one supremely important and necessary role but now she's losing it. Her brain on some level realizes her status is going to fall as she becomes relatively useful to no one. Feeling useless, dispensable, worthless is a crisis. She also misses her babies who are pulling away, also a crisis. In a crisis of change, self re-invention is the hardest thing to do, so the first choice is instead to wage war to maintain status quo.

So this woman is fighting to re-impose herself as a significant and necessary figure in her children's life. It is not for her children's sake but for herself. But it is being rationalized to her brain and everyone else as motherly virtue, to justify whatever she wants to do. The more her children pull away, the more monstrously she will behave, and the more everyone will continue to put up walls to keep her out, in a vicious cycle. She is going to damage the closest relations in her life and isolate herself further. Sad but not uncommon.

Being a mother is a noble thing. But she needs identities and projects beyond motherhood to engage with through the changing seasons of her life. Otherwise she will become nobody with no reason for living as a result of losing her only useful and valued role. She literally does need other things to do, other valuable things to be.

She might have psychiatric issues compounding the crisis in her situation, for which therapy and meds are the answer. But she might not. Extremely overbearing and desperate behavior isn't only the result of psychiatric disorders, it can just be an ineffective coping strategy in response to a bad life situation. In such cases, a person actually has to change themselves and the parameters of their life into a healthy configuration, not just medicate away their response to a bad situation.

Project and mental health are related. This mom has been nothing but a mom. So mom's identity is entirely defined by her importance to her children which is now lost. That loss is a crisis because she does not have other valuable and purposeful identities to engage with as her children grow independent. She is not needed at her career, valued for a skill or talent, or engaged in service to a noble cause. She has one supremely important and necessary role for awhile, and now she's losing it. Her brain on some level realizes her status is going to fall as she becomes relatively useful to no one. Feeling useless, dispensable, worthless is a crisis. She also misses her babies who are pulling away, which is also a crisis.

So this woman is fighting to re-impose herself as a significant and necessary figure in her children's life. It is not for her children's sake but for herself. But it is being rationalized to her brain and everyone else as motherly virtue, to justify whatever she wants to do. It's sad but not uncommon. The more her children pull away, the more monstrously she will behave, and the more her children will pull away, in a vicious cycle. She is going to damage the closest relations in her life and isolate herself further.

Being a mother is a noble thing. But she needs identities and projects beyond motherhood to engage with through the changing seasons of her life. Otherwise she will be nobody with no reason for living as a result of losing her the only useful and valued role. She literally does need other things to do, other valuable things to be.

She might have psychiatric issues compounding the crisis in her situation, for which therapy and meds are the answer. But she might not. Extremely overbearing and desperate behavior isn't only the result of psychiatric disorders, it can just be an ineffective coping strategy in response to a bad life situation. In such cases, a person actually has to change their life, not just medicate away their response to a bad situation.

As someone with severe anxiety, you're talking absolute nonsense if you think the mom having a busier life and things to keep her mentally occupied wouldn't help her. We need things to keep us focussed and grounded, and concentrating on appropriate things, rather than letting our minds run wild with all the terrible scenarios they can come up with

this is normal stuff, op said her behavior has been increasingly erratic recently. that sounds nothing like a lifelong mental illness. that sounds like someone whose entire identity is crumbling around them and trying desperately to hold on

Honestly, I don’t think we have enough information to say what’s going on with this woman. Seems like the “strangeness” really is focused around the sleepovers. She’s clearly concerned about something happening at these events. OP didn’t mention his wife needing to go to the mall, school events, etc with daughter, just sleepovers. My guess is that wife may be the victim or witness of something happening at a sleepover when she was of daughters age. And then again, I could be way off. I just think we need more information to determine what’s going on here.

No, mom was overbearing before. She has to sit with both kids to do all their homework so they don't ever make a mistake and is frustrated because now that the boy can get around on his skateboard and bicycle, she can't keep up with him every single minute.

The sleepovers are just the tip of a big iceberg when it comes to her need to control her kids.

I'm not sure, in one comment OP talks about their son riding his bike with his friends in the neighbourhood "so fast that she can't catch him any more". This woman is chasing her kids down the street because they don't want to hang out with her, it's not healthy...

You just made me realize this is exactly what happened to my mom. We were close all through elementary school. She was a SAHM and I'm an only child. High school was terrible... She made me move schools without telling me when I got a bf. Anything she does is never wrong and if my dad helps me she said I was always on his side and we were ganging up on her.

I'm now married with my own baby and my issues with my mom is still unresolved. Op, please do something so your family doesn't fall apart.

That’s what it really sounds like to me as well. My mom was a SAHM and I was an only child, I was in college though before she really went through it. Mom definitely needs to get into some hobbies and make some new friends of her own, because daughter is only going to get older and more independent.

She has some boundary issues. It’s not appropriate for adults to be sleeping with or around teens. I cut off a relationship between my daughter and an adult parent, because she was calling my kid on the phone. I explained several times to my teenager this is a huge boundary issue. We are not here to be your friend. She didn’t understand but did listen to me. I saw the light bulb go off when I said it’s not normal. You will understand when you get older. You just don’t do that. Like the time that lady next door wanted to play barbies with me like a kid. My mom put a stop to that shit, quicker than you can see straight.

Eventually, it will manifest into...she’s the weird mom. What the hell is she doing around my child. There are ways for her to be involved. This is why being a soccer mom or volleyball mom is great. She can find healthy avenues to be friendly. If she can find that balance to continue parental support like the mom that helps with the school functions. She can volunteer and be apart of her life.

My mum is resentful of my career (and my sister's career) because she's never had one of her own. She had us young then was a stay at home mum, then started part time work when I was about 12. Before that she dropped out of high school to work as a bank teller.

My sister and I are both over 30 and mum stillllll calls us her best friends and says and does stupid stuff that we did when we were kids. It's embarrassing. She has other issues that contribute but she's massively depressed and has been for decades now. It's sad to an outsider but I have emotional fatigue with it all. I'm adamant I won't inflict this on my own daughter.

Your wife needs a job. Pronto. She needs something to focus her time and attention on that is not the household or the kids. She feels out of control and more so as time passes. If her skill set isn't sufficient for a mentally engaging job, what about volunteering? Can you subtly start bringing up things along these lines? Maybe take her to some events, craft fairs, museums, animal shelters, etc. and see what she takes to?

Apart from your wife being a super uncool mom, that episode where she showed up at your daughter's friend's house and demanded to be let in was horrifying to read. I'd be mortified. And you need to continue telling her that you will NOT be part of a united front on these issues so long as you believe her behavior is toxic to your daughter's social development and inappropriate toward other adults.

Let her get mad at you. From what you've written, you're not in the wrong. She's burning her own bridges with your kids. They need to know you're still a voice of sanity at home. What happens when they really need a parent to step in for help but don't want to go to her because they think she's too overbearing and embarrassing? No, no -- you've gotta hold the line.

She doesn’t want to get a job. I’ve been pro-job since our kids were 7-8 since school occupies most of their time and wife would have days free. She thinks a job would detract away from childcare so she isn’t willing yet. Her ideal timeline would be to get a job after our youngest turns 18.

As for hobbies she’s never had any hobbies really, for as long as I’ve known her. Our kids became her biggest project and that’s where she focuses all her energy on. She’ll do all their homework with them to make sure they understand everything. We’ve had fights over this because I believe kids need to have room to make mistakes and learn from them themselves but my wife thinks it’s 100% better to have an adult nearby always.

Do you have any relatives who are also concerned about her behavior who you think she might listen to? Is her behavior now some sort of overreaction to the way SHE was parented? Is there a way you can leverage some part of her upbringing to relate to her how toxic her behavior is?

I feel like you're at a point where you need to stage an intervention. Not for substance abuse but for codependent parenting.

What are the chances your kids can stay with a friend or a relative for a couple days? Do you think you could get some other adults into the house along with a counselor for an in-house therapy session where you talk about what's going on, how it's affecting the kids and your marriage? Sometimes it takes a village to raise a mom.

Eh I disagree that a job wouldn't help, but that she's unwilling to do it currently puts the kibosh. I think a job would be great for her, were she willing. Women I've seen trying to reenter the workforce after long stints as SAHMs have suffered extreme nervousness about going for jobs due to how long they've been out, I thought it possible this was also an aspect in her resistance to the very idea of a job.

I know a woman that at almost exactly this lady's age quickly had two more kids, and I suspect that by the time they grow she'll be begging the first batch for grandkids!

My mother was a SAHM who got a job once I hit college and I wish she'd done it sooner. She takes such a pride in what she does, and being out of the house to socialize with people has made her infinitely happier.

The reddit rule is that for every person that comments, 100 more read (I reddit somewhere ...), so i think it's cool you've put this out there for all the Mothers, Fathers, and ditto to be. Good on you, and am interesting perspective from you, cheers.

The lady I talked about in my second paragraph? I'm genuinely a little worried about how it will be. Close, family relation, and I hope that she takes your Mother's path, at least after the second batch! I worry that it'll be what I said, tbh. That would be not good.

If it helps, maybe let her know that she’ll have a better chance of getting a good position when the kids are 18 if she’s doing something in the meantime, even if it’s just working part-time or even volunteering?

This is a really weird situation. I feel like your wife must be having some kind of dissatisfaction in her own life and/or stress about your daughter growing up, but please don’t let this slide, OP. It will end up being really harmful to your daughter’s relationship with her peers AND with her mom.

Edit: I know it’s cliche to suggest therapy constantly in this sub, but is that a possibility? Either just for her or as a couple? It’s really not normal to be SO rigid and protective of your older children.

I’ve always thought it had something to do with our kids growing up and needing her less. Our younger son used to be a mamas boy but ever since he turned 8 he became fiercely independent. He plays with his own friends outside and my wife can’t keep up anymore. He skateboards and rides his bike around so my wife literally can’t catch him sometime.

Our daughter is more of a homebody but still, no one wants their mom at a sleepover. My wife is obsessed with the idea that the girls will talk about bad boys and sex and drugs when left alone and that’s why she thinks she needs to be there. She believes it’s her job to “guide” their conversations and mold their minds before it’s too late.

Your comment reminded me of a high school friend of mine. His mom would call him every hour to find out where he was when a bunch of us were hanging out, she refused to let him go to parties (even when no alcohol was involved). She had to buy all his clothes, including underwear. Worst of all, when he left the country to attend university in another country, she split the family apart, leaving her husband to take care of the younger kid, while she moved and rented a house where he had to live with her throughout his university life, which abruptly ended when he ended up doing and later selling drugs. He was jailed for a long time.

I just got a text from an old high school friend who has a woman like OP's wife as her mother. Example: When there was an undersea earthquake in Japan during my friend's college years, her mom drove out to find her daughter at her coastal school in the middle of the night and woke her and made her drive a hundred miles inland because of tsunamis.

Back high school, my friend rebelled so hard. She was 14 and dating a 19 year old drug dealer and eventually got sent to reform school for her criminal behavior and substance issues. She was a sweet, bright girl, but her mom drove her insane. She did eventually clean up her act, and she's now a very successful mother of two with a masters in statistical analysis, but boy did she struggle to find herself under her mother's obsessed attention.

Oh yeah, I can totally understand why this would be upsetting for her. The problem is that she's taking it to a really extreme and paranoid level. (She doesn't trust ANY of your daughter's friends or their parents to be safe people for your daughter to be left with? She doesn't trust your daughter to be able to make good decisions for herself at 14 years old?)

Teenage girls aren't going to be talking about sex and drugs right and left the second they arrive at a sleepover, but the flip side of this is that they WILL find a way to learn about these things to some degree as long as they are participating in normal society in basically any way at all. (Source: Was a teenage girl.) What your wife is doing now is ensuring that if your daughter IS in some kind of trouble in the future, she won't turn to her mom for advice because her mom has already proven that she'll freak out and act really unreasonably over the slightest thing.

...But it sounds like you're aware of this already, which is good! Please just keep pushing back on her mindset as much as possible. If therapy is possible but you think she'd be resistant to it, maybe try to frame it as neutrally as possible, like "I know you're worried about our daughter getting into bad influences...let's get some professional advice about how we can support her best." Good luck.

My dad was the crazy parent. He found out my friends parents took me moonlight bowling at a sleepover (the parents were there) so at 2 in the morning he shows up at their house, curses out her parents, takes me home and grounds me for 2 months.

It was so embarrassing. No guys would date me because they heard all these stories about my dad. Then he proceeded to mock me for not having boyfriends and assumed I was a lesbian. Why do people do this?

Hah yeah I mean when I was 14 we weren't only talking about sex drugs and alcohol, some were already using it! I'd say it's pretty normal to drink alcohol for the first time around 14-15 years of age here in Finland at least.

Yeah at that point or within the next year or 2 there's gonna be someone's parent who's fine with them drinking alcohol they provide as long as they're safe under their roof. It's better they experience these things safely at "home"(friends house) rather than when they turn 21 and go way overboard.

You should be careful. My mom tried to be super controlling around this age and guess what? I left as soon as I was able, and never looked back. We no longer have a relationship at all because she could never seem to figure out that her continuing to try to manipulate and control me after I was an adult wasn't going to work out in her favor. I don't miss her at all.

Of course they’re going to talk about bad boys and sex and drugs! But they’ll also talk about good boys, school, their favorite colors, celebrities and maybe books and movies. And their plans and ideas.

I think if I was in your shoes I would try to get to the root of her anxiety. Does she picture something specific besides the vague “sex and drugs?” Could she have a phobia? Did she have a traumatizing experience when she was a teenager?

This is going to put extreme strain on your relationship and your wife’s relationship with your daughter. Seriously. This stuff is what affects children for the rest of their lives. Please encourage your wife to see a therapist and even go as a family. The sooner you can resolve these issues and let your daughter be herself and become independent the better off she will be when she’s older.

My mom did this kind of stuff. Your wife is hurting, and she needs a hobby and some friends. Maybe a book club. Do you have any adult friends? Maybe you and your wife can have more date nights with just the two of you, or go out with other adult friends. Your daughter is more than old enough to babysit your other kids. My mom got really interested in basketball after both of her kids moved out. But her mom spent her energy on raising foster kids.

Wow. They are definitely going to talk about all of that stuff? So what’s the problem? What is her plan for 16? 18? 20?

I know someone who was like this. Her child went to college all the way on the other side of the country and didn’t even come home for Thanksgiving this year. The older this kid gets the more empowered she will be to stay away.

You need to get to work now to build a close relationship with your daughter. She needs to know you trust her and you need to help her make good choices in uncomfortable situations.

I suggest approaching the parenting of teenagers by guiding them into adulthood. I was the ultimate helicopter mom until high school. Then my kids got a lot of freedom. Once they could drive they never even had a curfew and I asked to be in the loop of what they were doing. Because they never had freedom before when they got it they wanted to keep it so they didn’t screw up.

Today they are in their 20s and have traveled to many different countries, taken fantastic road trips and truly love their lives. They are outstanding students and have paid for all of their college through scholarships and working summer jobs. I give them all the credit for the great adults they turned out to be, but I pat myself on the back for giving them freedom which was terrifying for me.

As others say this is asking for trouble. She is pushing your daughter to act out, go out and drink, see boys etc. She is suffocating her and so sure she'll do it your daughter will do it to punish her and have control over her life. I'm glad your daughter has you. Keep being the sane voice. Sit down with her and let her know you trust her judgement and ability to make choices, you love and support her. You are there no matter what and if something is wrong or is worrying her she can come to you no judgement or arguing. If she's out and about and needs you at anytime you will come no question asked. That's what kids need to stay safe. Talk about how she feels about what her mum is doing too, let her know what she tells you is just between you, and ask what she wants to see change. Give a long pause and let her gain confidence to tell you her true feelings.

This will make your daughter dislike her mom. Honestly, if it keeps things up, it could create long-term damage in their relationship. This will especially be the case if your daughter stops getting invited to sleepovers -- a distinct possibility if her mom keeps hovering around and just randomly showing up at people's houses.

Has your wife ever acknowledged that her behaviors aren't normal? Have you ever directly talked to her about how she might be damaging your child's burgeoning social life -- something that is incredibly important at that age?

What's stopping her from telling your children in a face to face talk about those issues? Then it won't matter anymore if her friends discuss it while sleeping over. Because she already knows she shouldn't do drugs and is too young for sex.

I believe kids need to have room to make mistakes and learn from them themselves but my wife thinks it’s 100% better to have an adult nearby always.

I think you need to dig into this point as well. If she does all their work for them or never let's them learn on their own or fail, then they will either "fail to launch" (which she might want entirely so she can keep infantilizing them and being a mom and not work) or they will move out and never come back because she's so repressive/controlling.

You should definitely talk to a therapist individually and possibly get your kids to see one too. This is so not healthy behavior and you might need to break up your marriage to protect your kids. I'm sorry OP, but she has put all her eggs in the mom basket and doesn't know how to move on so you may need to move on without her for your kids' sake...

I don't think she's going to snap back to sanity when the kids go off to college. In fact, I'd expect the opposite. There are plenty of posts here about super overbearing parents who try to move into their kid's dorm or expect their kid to answer their calls ever hour and have tracking software on their phone. I can totally see your wife headed there.

Maybe arrange family therapy with your daughter, so you guys can get professional advice on how to deal with your wife.

Honestly, that’s her problem. You have a teenager and a 10 year old. These kids are self-sufficient. They don’t need help bathing, picking out their clothes, getting dressed, feeding themselves, cooking/using the microwave, brushing their teeth, tying their shoes, etc.

Your wife is wanting to infantilize them. She can’t handle that they aren’t going to want her around all the time. She can’t handle that they don’t want her hovering over them.

Plus, how is an 18+ year gap in work history going to look for her after your youngest turns 18? I don’t see how working, while they are in school, would detract from any childcare she thinks they may need.

I’d definitely take yourself, and at least your daughter, to counseling. Your daughter will need the coping skills to deal with her mother. Not saying it would ever happen but as a former teenaged female, I wish I would’ve had coping mechanisms. I got hit with depression right around 13-14 years old and didn’t have any way of coping in a healthy manner. I’m 31 now and am now in therapy to unravel the last 18-19 years worth of hell.

Your wife is putting her wants above her daughter’s needs. Possibly your son’s needs, too. Kids don’t need a hovering parent 24/7. They need space and friends and some alone time. The exact opposite of what your wife is doing.

OP, have you had a heart to heart talk with her? Like an honest conversation? There is a time to be nice and a time to be more straight forward. You need to say to her face that her behavior is toxic. Yes she will be defensive but it might make her reflect.

I've not read or seen anything to support this, but things like this make me wonder if it isn't detrimental to your mental health to spend your life raising children in a modern society. In the past women (men stay home now too but for the period of time I'm thinking of it was exclusively women) still helped the village, had to hand wash things, tend things outside the house etc. There was a lot more work involved outside of the child itself. Today stay at home mothers and fathers focus almost entirely on their children. Cleaning and cooking is done of course, but kids have play dates, PTA, school, band, wrestling, football, sleepovers and their life is your life too. If that is the entire focus of your life that has to be mentally draining.

​

This is one of the biggest reasons I'm child free. The workload over 18+ years is staggering.

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Edit: Added "to your mental health". This was a mental health post and I forgot to put the words in. It's late.

From what my grandma told me about when she was younger the other mum's had kind of a bartering system like if one had a sewing machine she would sew and people would do things in return. I cannot remember the ins and outs but there was definitely a network amongst people in that regard.

I never really thought about it in those terms. But yes they worked a lot harder than some of the modern SAHPs. No washing machine, post partum depression wasn't recognised, ADHD in kids not recognised, more meals from scratch etc. So they always had things to do

As a new parent, if anything, I wonder if it's the opposite problem: People aren't meant to care for babies alone. It's too exhausting and all-consuming. And in suburbia, it can be very isolating. A communal village environment seems much healthier for everyone. I wonder if being a stay at home parent might foster unhealthy attachment for some parents. A sort of Stockholm Syndrome. Then when the child is actually old enough to be self sufficient, the parent can't let go after having sacrificed so much of themselves.

If she doesn’t want a job, as a stay at home mom to a 10 year old, I understand that. However, she needs something else to do. Volunteer get a hobby. The new year is coming, come up with a resolution that you can follow for the whole year. My son is special needs and I can’t work because I need to be available if he doesn’t have school. But after a while, that life starts to consume you. So I started a New Years resolution that I have followed every day this year and I feel like that has helped me a lot.

Time to drop some nukes. If this keeps up she'll drive your kids completely away, and from you too. Staying the course is bad for everyone. Tell her a job and therapy is non-negotiable if she wants to married, otherwise you'll be divorcing. At least then you can save yourself and your kids. If this keeps up she will not only ruin relationships she may ruin your kids lives if she does enough damage. Just lay it out there and tell her it's therapy or a divorce.

Bottom line, you need to act now to save your kids and your relationship with them.

OP, if nobody’s suggested it yet, head over to r/justnoMIL as a preview of what your wife is going to turn into in your children’s eyes.

Nobody wants to spend time with a person, especially a parent, who stops boundaries.

It’s time for your wife to realize that her kids don’t need her so much any more - which, great! That means she was a successful mom! - and now she needs to avoid fucking up her relationship with her kids.

Honestly that’s ridiculous. What does she do all day - the kids are in school! Dunno about where you live - but in California the 14 year old and 10 year old can be home alone (well, together - 10 year old too young alone) and so she could easily get a job. Stop putting up with this nonsense and have her do SOMETHING during the day.

Have her start learning really advanced sciences on a high level and calculus iii and differential equations, etc. 1) it will actually help your children in high school 2) it will take up a lot of her time

I think she may benefit from an intervention. Maybe if she hears from her own kid, and as much of her friends and family as possible, in a calm and controlled manner, she'd begin to see how much shes hurting her family and herself. Shes going through an identity crisis and is clinging to her increasingly obsolete purpose.

Jumping on here to say that I think the only thing you can do is go to therapy yourself and/or with your daughter. After reading more of your replies, it looks like the ingredients for this disaster have always been there, and that it’s finally coming to a head. If your wife is so unwilling to see that her family is unhappy with how she’s treating them and behaving, she is behaving very narcissistically (to distinguish from “being a narcissist”) and the outcome is grim unless she starts looking at and altering her own behavior.

I work with kids and have long made the distinction of there being a category of “Narcissistic Mother/parent” in contrast to someone having an actual diagnosable personality disorder. It’s the way I conceptualize exactly how your wife is behaving. It takes countless forms and can look a million different ways, some more harmful than others. As you well know, your situation is rather dire. Mom is going to permanently wreck her relationships with the people she holds most dear.

I have a 13 year old and a 15 year old. I was a SAHM, but due to circumstances beyond my control had to return to work in the last year. School is generally structured in a way that working parents are able to still attend performances and shuttle their kids to/from activities.

Not to mention she could get a part-time job with "mother's hours", allowing her to be home when the kids return from school. At their ages it's really unlikely her having a life outside of them would detract from their care in any serious way.

She reminds me of a friend of mine's mother. He eventually moved as far from her as he could, and only sees her a handful of times a year now, if that. That's the future relationship your wife is setting up for herself. She's going to drive her children completely away.

This is completely unreasonable. Perhaps you could attempt to take the focus away from her toxic parenting style by making your issue about her needing to find a job? I don't know how you are financially, but I imagine most families could use a bit more money, and honestly, you wife is losing her goddamned mind trying to be a mother to people who no longer need her to be home 24/7.

Insist, demand that she get a job. If she brings up "needing to be a mother", shut that shit down. Dare her to ask for a consultation with a child psychologist if she insists that the best thing for the children is that she not work (this is a trap as you imagine, given that any child psychologist that so much as gets a whiff of what she's doing will come down on her hard). You are absolutely not in the wrong, and she is not being rational, so don't be afraid to use her own circular logic against her if she continues using the same insane arguments:

"What's that honey, you insist that our children need you to be at home until they turn 18? If you're so positively absolutely sure about this, why not go ask a pasychologist about this? If they say that's the case, hey, I'll be the first one to lay off your back".

I don't know how your relationship with your wife is, but this sounds like it's been going on for a while, and it sounds like you can't speak to her in a heart-to-heart manner. I don't know what your thoughts on the matter are, but I think you're justified in making your marriage contingent on this whole issue, as, what's absolutely not fair is that you have to carry the economic weight of the family and need to protect your kids from her (which in theory is her job).

It's not about not wanting a job... She has no choice here Wtf... I would draw the line and give her two options. Work and finances stay as they are, or stay at home and only get the absolute needed amount of money for food and family things.... The kids are old enough, it's time for her to get something to do or she will go crazy and her kids will hate her even more

Could she maybe do courses in child development or whatever it’s called in the USA? Because then it’ll make her feel like she’s still a mother and it might wake her up a bit in terms of her own behaviour and giving her a distraction. She could always get a part time job in education as a TA once or twice a week. Also, does she exercise? Maybe start doing something as a family to pique her interest then she can go it alone.

If she won’t get counseling, you should tell her primary care doc what is going on. S/he cannot give you private info about wife, but doc can listen to you talk. Then doc can talk to wife at her next appt.

"She claims that I'm not supporting her enough on this one matter (barging in on sleepovers) and that we need to be a united front"

Tell her somewhat agree, and that's why you both need to go to a couples counselor, that you're trying to do what you think is supportive, and she's trying to tell you what she wants, but you're not lining up with each other, and a therapist will help you do that. Tell her that to act like a united front, you have to BECOME a united front, and that's what the therapist will help with. Or pitch it like the therapist will help "translate" what you each are saying into a way that helps you both understand each other better. Basically, use her wish (to act like a united front) as a pry-bar into therapy. She wants a united front, well you say therapy is how that happens, since you're both trying now and it's not working.

Or, showing up at houses like that, she's acting unhinged. It might be time for an "intervention" or maybe you inform her doctor of her erratic and obsessional behavior.

That’s a really good idea, thanks. I’ll try it out. She’s definitely been opposed to therapy because she believes therapists will pile blame on her. If I frame it like a therapist will help her verbalize her side better I’m sure she’ll be more open to it.

She knows she's out of line but she married someone who let's her get away with it and thought she raised her kids to too, but she's wrong and she knows it. A therapist will push that issue. She knows.

It's also telling that she conceptualises it as "blame" in the first place, it's emotional importance on something that is actually fine, it's fine to make mistakes and they have consequences but why she thinks a professional wants to "blame her" idk

I’d also like to point out that a united front is a two-way street. She snuck out, lied to your face about where she was going/what she was doing and then came home and demanded a united front. A united front means if one of you says no, something doesn’t happen. But she’s not even giving you the chance to say no. She feels like a therapist is going to “blame” her because she knows what she’s doing is wrong.

You need to do whatever it takes to get her to a therapist. You may not have considered just how creepy her demands to sleep in the same room as young teens are, but I am sure your daughter's friends and their parents are having serious questions now. Think of how weird it would be to have a grown adult show up in the night demanding to sleep in the room with children because they might discuss sex or drugs. If this happened at my home with my preteen sister, I would speak to my mother about forbidding her from going to the other child's house because it reads like sketchy abuse. I am not suggesting that is your wife's intentions, but this is how it could look to outsiders.

Also, as a daughter of a similarly controlling parent (father), I want to emphasize how much damage is already not going to be reversible to their relationship. Your wife has been controlling them in small ways for years from your other comments, your children will realize this. The only way to keep your daughter from cutting off your wife once she grows up is interfering now. Otherwise she may miss important events, concerns, joys, etc all because your daughter can't trust her mother.

OP, I agree with lots of the other advice. And I just want to add, I think you need to be willing to put divorce on the table eventually, if she won’t go to therapy even with this approach — or if she backs out when she feels like it’s not helping her case.

Your own long-term relationship with your kids will be at risk if she keeps this up and they don’t see you taking it seriously enough. She really is crossing lines that are so unreasonable that they need to see you put your foot down.

Then he'd have to make sure he documents her behavior, because she might get all or 50-50 custody otherwise. And that would only make it worse.

He'd have to talk to a lawyer about his chances of getting custody. Depending on where he is, maybe his children (at least the girl) might be old enough that they choose for themselves who to stay with.

Divorce as an ultimatum might either make her wake up, or dig her heels in deeper. We don't know. She might feel attacked and get crazier.

I haven’t seen anyone mention this but if you want to look into the future and see how your children’s lives will be, check out r/justnomil. There are some great examples of overbearing moms that sound a lot like your wife.

Your wife needs therapy and it’s best if you go too. I recommend it for your kids too because they need to have some coping skills for setting boundaries with your wife. Granted, they’re young but your wife doesn’t sound like she’s likely to let up so they need to be able figure out how to cope with her behavior.

I doubt it would work even if you managed to get her there, for exactly that reason. The counselor will agree with only one of you. And it's probably going to be you. People tend to get worse when more people attack their position.

Your wife desperately needs some mental help. Has she any friends or family she can go out with, talk to?

You will do your wife as an individual and your family a huge favor by issuing an ultimatum. This is has only gotten worse over time and will continue. What happens when your kids turn 18? Your wife sounds damn near manic about her role as mother.

I’m not saying it is at this point yet but if she won’t attend therapy it may be time for the “two card option.” This is when you hand your spouse a business card for a therapist and one for a divorce lawyer and tell them it is time to choose. This may sound extreme but listen — as a woman with mental illness, I am saying you need to be prepared to go nuclear for the sake and sanity of your household.

Yeeaaaaah, your wife knows what she's doing is wrong. You need to actively choose to take your daughters side. Stop playing middle man because everyone is getting hurt as a result. Back your child, so the only person being affected by this is the person causing it - your wife.

She is having a completely unhealthy breakdown about her redundancy as a contributing person looming. She has nothing but her motherhood as a purpose, and she's desperately clinging to this.

I don’t have much advice that differs from the other commenters, but I felt the need to tell you that you’re doing right by your daughter.

At 14, finding independence away from parents is important, and your wife is looking to stunt that. Not to mention, she’s being totally inappropriate, lying to you and wanting to join teenage girls sleepover in someone else’s house. Also insulting, thinking that other parents aren’t fulfilling their roles as well as her. Could you possibly get a therapist to come to the house and talk? What if you tackled it as a family issue and not just “you’re being unreasonable”.

At 14, finding independence away from parents is important, and your wife is looking to stunt that. Not to mention, she’s being totally inappropriate, lying to you and wanting to join teenage girls sleepover in someone else’s house. Also insulting, thinking that other parents aren’t fulfilling their roles as well as her. Could I possibly get a therapist to come to the house and talk? What if you tackled it as a family issue and not just “you’re being unreasonable”.

I don’t think bringing a therapist to a person who doesn’t want to see one is going to make a difference. It could probably do a lot more harm than good. She will double down and feel ambushed. She needs to want to go to therapy and work on herself, or there’s no point.

On a different note I feel like you should apologize to the parents that your wife went to and demanded to be let in. You don’t want those parents urging their daughter to de-friend your daughter since she doesn’t trust your wife

Yeah, there’s more going on regarding their reaction. if OP came for the house, concerned about his daughter, they might not let him downstairs (as a man) but it seems highly likely they’d make his daughter come upstairs (at least so that they wouldn’t need to deal with him).

This suggests they already know she’s weird. I’m sure the daughter doesn’t want sleep overs at her house, but I’m not sure the other parents would allow it anyway.

Somewhere, at somepoint this is going to boil over. I’d have a safe place to take the kids (in-laws, god-parents) and discuss this with some trusted confidants. Because it could get messy quick.

I will never forget the sleepover I had at a friend's house when I was a kid. Her mom was in the room with us the whole night, and I don't think she slept the entire time. Thirty years later, I still have this image in my head of her seated silhouette peering down at me every time I turned over in my sleeping bag. It was so creepy.

By the way, she was the school principal. So this doesn't strike me as a SAHM problem as much as a serious control issue.

I just want to share a couple disjointed thoughts as someone with a very similar experience with my mother growing up.

1) Most important: this is what she is doing in front of you, that you know about. If your impression is this bad and dire, just imagine the interactions, comments, and behaviors your kids have experienced with her when you're not around. Kids don't know what is and isn't normal. Don't assume that you currently have the full picture; its possible that it is far, far, far worse

2) At 14-15ish, I was already making plans and daydreaming about being a couple of years older so that I could move away and go completely no contact.

3) You keep saying that you try things and your wife gets mad. So what? Let her get mad. Let her stay mad. You HAVE to be able to hold your ground. Your children won't be able to

4) You need to set real and concrete consequences for her continued behavior.

This ^ is very important. I was daydreaming of leaving by the time I was 8 or 10 years old. Joined the military at 18. I don't have a close relationship with my family. I'm 26 now and me and my mom are just starting to kind of get to where we can talk the past couple of years. She's also changed a Lot.

My dad bailed, so I didn't have an adult to talk to about anything. I saw him weekends when he wasn't 'too tired' to come get us but I didn't feel like I could talk to him. And there was definitely stuff I needed to talk to Someone about. I'm just now resolving these things at my age (turns out to be mental illness, etc). But I never opened up about my depression or anxiety because I had no one to open up to (that could do anything about it).

You need to stand firm and give your kids a safe place to go to for those things. I should honestly be dead right now. I'm glad I'm not. And I'm obviously not saying that they are in that kind of extreme case by any means. Just pointing out the fact that if they Need someone they can open up to realistically, you need to show them that they can do that with you.

I think this is a hill you die on in a relationship. You might want to cross post to /r/JustNoSo and see if they have any ideas, but my thoughts would be to first, to back up your kids and tell them that their mom is going through some things and you understand she's being overbearing and you've got their back. They 1) need to know that they have a parent who will support their healthy development and 2) your wife may tear the family apart if she can't get help for herself and you need to look after your kids first.

Bottom line, if your wife can't pull herself back and won't get help, you might have to divorce her and take the kids for their own emotional well-being, so keep that in mind and be ready to get your ducks in a row (don't move out, speak to a lawyer on what you need to do to gain primary custody, figure out finances, etc).

I’ve been very supportive of my kids, but it’s had the opposite effect where now my wife thinks we’re teaming up against her and that it’s so unfair that the kids are close to me now when she was the SAHM that did most of the child raising.

It’s near impossible to get through to her, because now our daughter makes a beeline for me every time she gets home and wife will fume about it for hours. Then she doubles down on the overbearing parenting to force daughter back which causes our daughter to pull away even more. It’s a terrible cycle.

I’ve tried explaining this to her but she just doesn’t see where she could be wrong. Like she’s in 100% denial over how her parenting isn’t the best.

It’s near impossible to get through to her, because now our daughter makes a beeline for me every time she gets home and wife will fume about it for hours. Then she doubles down on the overbearing parenting which causes our daughter to pull away even more. It’s a terrible cycle.

Maybe ask socratic questions about her parenting style? Like, "In your opinion, at what age will our daughter be old enough to be at a sleepover by herself?" and "What sorts of things do you want to do with your life when the kids all move out for college/their own lives?" These questions about the longer term might help lead her to understand that parenting must change as children change.

Also this could just get her to blow up at you, so hey, take my advice at your own risk. She seems deep deep in denial and I don't envy you at all.

So much of what you’ve written here sounds sooooo familiar to me. My mom didn’t attend my sleepovers, but she did cry that my siblings and dad and I were ganging up on her when we tried to address issues. She was very controlling throughout high school and university. She has caused a significant amount of damage in my life.

If your wife does not get help, she will likely lose any chance of having a relationship with your daughter.

Have you tried approaching your wife from a place of concern? “Honey, I’m worried about you and how you are behaving. You lied to me about going to the grocery store, and instead showed up, without warning, to daughter’s friend’s house.”

This is hard and shitty and a terrible situation. But coming from the daughter of a mother like this, please please please — for the sake of your kids — do not continue to enable her dysfunction.

Yeah, I think he's still a little in denial over how serious this is. Like he recognizes that she's not right, but I'm not sure he realizes the extent of the damage she's causing. It will take years before her kids trust her again, were she to change her behavior right now. If she doesn't change, she'll eventually lose them completely.

Can confirm. Grew up with an intrusive mother. We have no relationship now that I'm an adult. I walked out and didn't look back. I see her minimally, and share absolutely nothing with her. This woman has probably already permanently damaged her relationships, and will probably never be capable of realizing it.

That's just the thing. You kind of are teaming up against her. Because she is being completely wacko and needs to be managed by more than one person. You and your child are both on team "mom stop being so awful" and she is on team "I should get the things I want no matter how it makes anyone else feel." You are teaming up against her because she has made it necessary.

The more she tries to control her daughter, the more she will push her away. That relationship might be beyond repair if that's the point she's at right now. I guarantee you that your daughter is counting down the days until she gets to escape your house and her. Something has to change or you won't see your adult daughter ever--you'll be lucky to get a phone call.

This person is right OP. Act now to maintain your relationship with your kids. If need be at your relationship with your wife's expense. If she wants go all the way to crazy town let her (and your kids) know that you WONT be moving there with her.

Your wife simply isn't being reasonable and if you treat her actions as reasonable, you're going to lose your kids respect and harm your relationship with them.

You need to stand up to your wife and dig in your heels. She's smothering them, of course they're not going to like that. If I were you, I'd simply tell your wife that she needs help and that you are not going to discuss it further unril she's willing to go to couples counselling with you to work on this issue.

How are you explaining this to her? There can be no roses and workarounds. You need to sit her down and unflinching tell her face to face that her behavior is neither healthy or normal, it is nothing short of obsessive, invasive and hysteric, and emphasize that she. WILL. lose. her. kids. if. she. keeps. going. like. this. Period. They will hate her. Offer your support to get through this. You are clearly in the right here, but there must be a block in your communication from your side as well, it cant be just her being so delusional.

You give her two options and you don't argue about it. Therapy or divorce. If she tries to fight about the ultimatum, don't. Tell her she's got three days to decide and walk away. Make an appointment with a lawyer in three day's time if possible. You can always cancel it.

Try and use this. Say every time that it's because she suffocates them she needs to let them act their age and have more freedom. Tell her they will leave as soon as they can if she's not careful and never come back. Don't let her rage or sulk, confront it.

This is so awful. Her entire identity as a human being lies solely in her belief she's a brilliant parent - she can therefore do no wrong, not even a slight misstep, because otherwise her existence and life's works is a lie and a waste.

​

This is the core of the reason why people are suggesting she get a hobby/friend/job/anything, literally anything. So awful.

I 100% think separation is the only healthy option right now. Your wife is actively harming your children's development, moreso than a sticky separation will. You need her away from the children ASAP. Document her behavior and get a court to grant you custody. Then be prepared for her to lash out and get a restraining order. I think her behavior is too far gone at this point to try counseling and then see how it goes (not that she's agreeing to it anyway). Your top priority must be the welfare of your kids and your wife is threatening that. Protect them by removing them from this situation. Then maybe you can see about visitation with mom after she gets some major help.

/u/Jolly_Maximum, this option needs to be on the table for you if she refuses counseling. My husband, many of my friends, and myself have been pretty damaged emotionally and mentally by controlling mothers and yours is worse than all of them.

If your children are forced to put up with this behavior, it will cause them many issues going forward and scar them for life. Please start documenting everything now just in case. (And if you’re in a one-party consent state, consider recording proof.)

all of the above, and document her behaviour. A diary is a legal document.
Get the kids to keep diaries too. I’m sure you can get statements from your daughters friend’s parents and the school stating you are more stable as a parent.

Good comment, I totally agree. This whole situation for some reason really has me shaken like I can imagine OP's wife severely lashing out when she doesn't get what she wants. She seriously sounds dangerously unstable and nothing left to lose since she's put her whole life into being a SAHM.

For some reason I just think of that horrible reddit post from a few years ago where the OP asked for a divorce and his wife killed the kids or the woman in Texas (in a similar situation that OP is in) who called a family meeting in the middle of a nasty divorce and then shot and killed 2 or 3 of her kids before killing herself, all in front of her husband.

Be safe OP, I really hope you are able to safely manage this and get your wife help and do what's best for your kids...

People say that based on numbers that don’t take into account whether or not the fathers fought for custody rights. Many don’t. In cases where they do, they’re almost always granted 50-50 unless proven to be a danger (and sometimes granted more if the mother is proven incapable or doesn’t want it.) I learned all this when my own father went through his divorce and custody battle recently... his ex played dirty as hell, but he still got equal custody.

But for your kids, you should look up infantilisation, the effects it can have, and the best strategies to counter act it.

Key points are make sure your kids can do basic house work/cooking by themselves (esp the 14 year old), make sure they know they can come to you and you won't rat them out to mum without a really good reason. Let your daughter know that if she needs a doctor's appointment you'll get one for her without telling her mum. She's getting closer to the age where she might need birth control and it's better to have that conversation too early than too late.

Even without an overbearing parent! My dad took it upon himself to educate himself on periods and birth control etc so that when I needed to ask for an appointment (I had the worst skin and bc helped massively) he knew exactly what to do

Hi. I do not know how you can solve your situation, but I can tell you that you are very much on the right side here.

My girlfriend's mom acts like this too. She calls my girlfriend most of the times we go out. Sometimes she even insists on video calling her to make sure she knows where she is. My girlfriend once told me she even contemplated buying some sort of tracking app so she could know where she is at all times. Whenever she goes out she HAS to go with her, meaning she is never alone. One time she had a nosebleed at school and RIGHT AFTER class ended she was sitting outside waiting to pick her up and take her home. All over a nosebleed. She even wanted to talk to the professor about it.

The kicker? She is TWENTY. She simply cannot take decisions, even if they are minuscule ones. I always have to decide what we're doing, where we are going out, etc. We cannot have interesting conversations because it seems that she has never had any real opinions of her own. It's very sad. We have been together for a year, but I am breaking off things soon.

Dude, you need to get her into therapy IMMEDIATELY. That is the very first step you need to take. Tell her that you two are going to couples consoling or that's it. You NEED to talk to someone about this if you have ANY chance of saving your marriage.

You can try to frame it as a way to work on the communication issues you guys have been having about your "lack of support." But you need to support her by getting her into therapy in any way possible. You can transition that into individual therapy.

Getting her a job and her own life and friends are long term goals, but right now she needs help. For your children's sake.

Wanting to go on sleepovers at other people’s houses is flat out non sense. Buddy, you need to stop pussyfooting around. She’s lost her shit and needs counseling now. She is having a breakdown. You can’t have a rational conversation with her where she will suddenly see everyone else’s rational point of view. She needs counseling now and you’re not keeping the kids with her if this continues.

Wow. Good luck. Take care of this now, or she's going to have an absolute meltdown if your daughter wants to go away to college in a few years. She absolutely needs therapy, but if she won't seek it, there's not much you can do except lie about your daughter's whereabouts, which is a really bad strategy, but other than that, I've got nothing. Is there a grandparent she could stay with for awhile, so she can get used to being away from your daughter? Because I think that's what's really going on. She's making excuses in regards to protecting her (which in itself verges on helicopter parenting). Your wife is jealous of your daughter and trying to relive her youth. Honest question, did your wife enter your daughter into beauty pageants when she was younger, because that wouldn't surprise me at all.

If another mother showed up at my house trying to join my 14 year old daughter's sleepover, I would start to suspect some pretty fucked up stuff about that mom. That is straight up crazy pants, never recover from it socially among the other moms, everyone pities your kids kind of shit. I feel so horrible for your daughter. That is deranged.

Your wife is clearly in need of therapy. As a SAHM for 14 years, I personally am delighted to have more time for myself, but can understand that some SAHMs might feel a sudden lack of purpose. Showing up at the sleepover was off, but it's also very odd that the parents wouldn't let her in even to say "hey." Was your wife behaving erratically? Does she have alcohol or other substance abuse issues? I can't imagine not letting someone whose child was in my home into my home, unless something seemed dangerously off about them.

My guess is a mixture of the wife acting erratically and the daughter possibly confiding in her friends parents about her mother.

As someone who had a mum that I felt I could never go to I actually confided a lot in my friends mums. So much so that even though I haven't seen them in years I still see them like they were my mum.

I can imagine the mum knocking on the door and sweetly asking to see her kid. When the parents (who know the history) turn around and say how the kids are upstairs watching a movie and they should be left alone to enjoy their time as normal teenage girls, the mum starts flying off the handle like she does at home and then the parents are 100% adamant they aren't letting this crazy woman in.

Uh yeah, she was behaving erratically. Basically if another parent showed up at a sleepover, it is probably because there was a massive emergency. When she was unable to provide a reason why she wanted to come inside, they probably started getting weirded out immediately. Also, if her daughter is sleeping at their house I guarantee this isn't the first or fifth time they've seen bizarre behavior from her. Hopefully her daughter has as many solid adults outside of her Dad that she can confide in as possible.

Showing up at the sleepover was off, but it's also very odd that the parents wouldn't let her in even to say "hey."

This was my thought, too. Either the wife was acting so crazy they were concerned for the safety of the kid (in which case they should have immediately called OP and said exactly that), or they have a streak of asshole in them that just absolutely worsened the situation. OP, I bet you would get a lot of traction with your wife in terms of her going to therapy (she clearly needs it) if you could at least acknowledge how awful it was that those parents barred her access to her own child. I could see myself calling the cops in that situation. Unless she seemed like a danger to herself or others, those parents had no business just telling her no.

My mom was like this and I wish my dad advocated for me like you do for your daughter. I know a lot of people are suggesting she gets a job but my mom was employed. It's a control thing. I don't doubt your wife loves your kids, but she's only harming them. Creating super unhealthy and borderline creepy boundaries with your kids will seriously mess with their development. If you're lucky they'll just enter college and realize they're totally developmentally stunted (like I did) and literally have to learn to socialize with people like a normal human being. If you're not so lucky, like my sister, she will rebel and fall into a dangerous path.

You have to stand your ground. You must choose your daughter's wellbeing over your wife's neuroses, whatever that means. She's lucky she's only 37– she can do so much with her life still that don't involve your kids. This really is not something you can bend on.

So your wife has spent her entire adult life just being a Mom. No hobbies other than pouring all her attention into the kids. This is so massively unhealthy and she doesn't even realize it. Your daughter is probably already looking at colleges on the other side of the country. Except then Mom will be that insane parent who calls the police because she didn't respond to one of Mom's 200 texts and 30 phone calls. You need to use some of these suggestions to get your wife into therapy before she winds up with a campus restraining order and zero relationship with her children. She needs to learn how to be a functional independent human with friends and interests.

The first question that came into my mind was whether or not your wife may have experienced something traumatic when she was about that age? Perhaps she has anxiety about not being able to protect your daughter from something similar. Doesn’t even have to be abuse; it could be just a memory of incredibly mean girls from back in the day. There is the possibility that she hasn’t told you about something in her past. There is the possibility that I’m totally wrong.

She needs to be in therapy. With or without you. Please please keep “siding” with your children and giving them a sense of normal. This type of continued behavior will lead to issues for your kids (not necessarily sex drugs and rock and roll but it will impact how they move through the world).

My mom has BPD and did shit like this.

I will never, ever have a relationship with her. I don’t even hate anymore - I just don’t care. Hate is too active. I felt like that as a teen and young adult for sure. The more I pushed back the more abusive she got. My dad got me out at 15 and saved my life.

I’m not going to be sad when she dies - I’ll be relieved and annoyed (she’s a hoarder too so that’s going to be something annoying. I don’t want my sibs to have to deal with). She’s a miserable husk of a women who spent so much time being manipulative about us kids “never loving her” that NONE of her children like or love her. My own sibs have said that I’ll be grandma to their children (enormous age gap between us) and she will never know her grandkids.

I’m not going to be sad when she dies - I’ll be relieved and annoyed (she’s a hoarder too so that’s going to something. I don’t want my sibs to have to deal with). She’s a miserable husk of a women who spent so much time being manipulative about us kids “never loving her” that NONE of her children like or love her. My own sibs have said that I’ll be grandma to their children (enormous age gap between us) and she will never know her grandkids.

This is great advice. I'd also take the kids to therapy. Give them the best skill you can give them, healthy coping mechanisms when dealing with their over controlling mother who has a possibly undiagnosed mental illness.

Just wanted to chime in with the mountain of other comments and say that I had a very controlling, critical, angry mother just like this. She wanted to control every bit of me and my sister that she could, and was very emotionally abusive (which, by the way, is what your wife is too).

My dad witnessed her completely unhinged behaviour over the years, including a suicide threat and a threat to move back to her home country without us, in fairly disproportionate situations.

Want to know what he did? Nothing.

Want to know what relationship I have with both of them, including my dad? None. Absolutely none.

I had to go completely no contact with my mom for the sake of my own sanity, and then with my dad because he enabled and occasionally aided and abetted her abuse. He refused to ever address her behaviour, even as he recognized how destructive it was. He was a coward. That was what I realized, as time went on. He was selfish, and scared, and cared more about the potential loss of the marriage than he did about his children (neither of us talk to them anymore).

Don’t be this dad, OP. My dad’s betrayal actually fucked me up worse than my mom’s abuse, because he was supposed to protect me and he willfully chose not to.

If you allow your wife to continue this way unhindered, and if you do not leave her if she refuses to make any steps towards improvement, you will lose your children. One way or another, you will. They will see your betrayal as proof of your lack of love for them.

My sister and I have needed years of therapy to even begin to heal from the damage our parents did, and our parents are still very much in denial that they did anything worth apologizing for—even as both of their children cannot stomach being in the same room as them.

Also, do not underestimate the escalation that likely occurs in your wife’s behaviour when you aren’t present. She has likely said far worse things to your kids that you know nothing about. Remember that what you are actually seeing could very well be the milder end of the spectrum of her behaviour, given that she wants you on her side. Keep in mind that she is also performing a bit of triangulation here (look it up), which allows her to manipulate everyone if nobody talks to each other (this is what happened in my family), so the best way to combat that is open communication with your kids.

Above all, you MUST let your kids know that you see how their mom is acting and you ACKNOWLEDGE that it is not okay. You must also tell them that it is NOT their fault and they never deserve to be treated that way. Let them know you are doing your best to remedy the situation, but that no matter what happens, you’re there for them. Period.

All the best, OP. This is an incredibly difficult situation but you have some excellent advice here.

I know exactly how you feel. Much more disappointed that my mum let my stepdad treat us like crap. It still happens today. My sister is on the other side of the world, they don’t know my address, although I visit.

A key aspect in children growing up to become independent is unsupervised socialization, which your wife is trying to intrude on. Perhaps you could recommend some books to your wife on this topic? Not in a condescending way, but maybe you read one and if you think it's enlightening, then you could offer it to her to check out.

Does your wife have any history of mental illness in her family? I totally understood a mom feeling left behind at first but when I got to where she showed up at the sleepover I honestly couldn’t help but wonder.

She will tear your family apart if she doesn’t get some kind of help. I would recommend an ultimatum of some sort to get her to therapy. I would also recommend maybe starting therapy for your daughter - she’s going to be very resentful of her mother one day.

I wondered this, but also what kind of relationship she had with her own mother growing up. Are/were they close (is she still alive/a part of her life)? Was her own mother controlling and overbearing? Or was she cold and distant, and maybe your wife is going overboard the other way to try and make up from some lack in her own childhood? Does she generally lack the ability to empathize or take someone else's perspective, even from a logical standpoint?

It sounds like there is something much deeper than the average SAHM mid-life crisis. Therapy would be key, but it sounds like she'd be resistant. Usually those that reject therapy don't want help - they just want to be right.

I was only allowed to have approved friends over to the house and, because she couldn’t control other people’s houses, I was never allowed to sleep over at anyone else’s home. Because she needed to “protect” me. She was also constantly watching and monitoring everything I did. I had no privacy, no secrets. I never got to be a kid.

Because of this, and many other things, I tell her nothing now. We don’t really have a functional relationship anymore.

You need to nip this shit in the bud or your daughter isn’t going to stick around through adulthood and your wife will implode.

My family was exactly the same. Never allowed to stay elsewhere, (unless it was a friend of the family) I was too embarrassed to have friends over. It also didn’t help that my school was 2hrs from home. This was so I didn’t have friends in my street.

I was so alone. Constantly accused of doing the wrong thing and being untrustworthy, I went from a top student in year 6 (12yrs old) to the kid who didn’t go to school and smoked cigarettes by the time I was 14. Wagging was the only way to be able to see my friends outside of lunchtime.

Unfortunately my mum never stuck up for me, and just believed the crap my stepdad said. I was kicked out after I got caught wagging school when I was 14.

I had to start over, but I’m so glad this happened, I was free. I could have friends and a normal life. I didn’t wag school again after this.

It’s really important to be able to be comfortable, trusted and accepted at home.

Your OP doesn't tell the whole story, I think. Your comments reveal a lot more. It sounds like she was always overbearing and helicopter-y but there weren't any real consequences, probably because the kids were younger and see her as an authority figure. So all was ok. But now they're older and they see her behaviour what what it is and they're able to react.

I get you don't want to hurt your wife but she is causing real harm to your kids - you know this, that's why you don't agree with her. She is so far gone that she lied to you and humiliated herself and your daughter.

I don't think this is an issue of a SAHM who is lost with her identity, I think this is a control or anxiety issue. She is losing her grip over her kids and it's causing her to double down and make very poor decisions.

I'm sorry I don't have any advice, and I feel like I'm not telling you anything you don't know here, but your wife is bat shit insane. She has to know she is too otherwise she wouldn't have lied to you about the grocery store. Anyway why I am really commenting is that I really want to know if this was really completely out of the blue? She was totally normal when you met, married, 5 years ago? Really?

Just wanna reenforce that your instincts are right here. Wife is batshit, and she’s on the road to the kids hightailing it ASAP when they’re eighteen and never looking back. She believes no one in the world knows better than she does (not trusting other parents OR you) and that her kids are dolls to play with and control, and get gratification out of (her getting mad when they talk to you because she’s the one who stayed at home to raise them).

Therapy is about your only option—just hope that she doesn’t dismiss the therapist as knowing less than she does. If she has ANY friends (somehow I doubt...) or family that she’ll listen to, it’s time to bring them in as well. In addition to therapy, mind.

I’m also curious as to what she was like before the kids hitting this age.

Wow that's pretty nutty. Hold your ground, tell her she needs therapy or she's out. At this point she is going to do more harm than good with your children's development. They don't need a stay at home mom anymore. She needs a job, friends and a hobby. You have to make her understand that what she is doing is wrong and she needs help.

How is your marriage with her overall? Not her as mom but her as a wife and you as a husband. I've seen this trend before and HUGE part of it is also that the woman doesn't share a good relationship with her husband so she doubles down on her relationships as a mom. Apart from therapy, I would recommend you putting in the time and effort in you're marriage as well, go for movies, just the two of you. Go for romantic dates, small trips etc so she has something to look forward to.

I am curious about this too, OP. Does she treat you like a husband? Or a child? Does she act like your mother? Or does she treat you like a wife with a romantic/sexual relationship with her husband?

It sounds like you had children young, and early in your marriage. I am absolutely assuming here, but is it possible she never had time to learn to be a wife, let alone her own person, and went strait to being a mother? This being her overwhelming identity, combined with some sort of mental illness, has seemed to have taken over and she is now at a breaking point.

I feel for you OP, when my mother went through menopause, she almost ruined our relationship. My dad was the voice of reason and eventually she snapped out of it, but it affected our relationship for years. You are the only one who can keep your family together at this point. Can I ask suggest therapy for yourself? You have a huge hill to climb and you need support too.

Second this OP! On top of therapy, maybe going on dates could help distract her by strengthening your romantic bond. I think taking a class together like painting, cooking, yoga could help her tap into any potential hobbies that can veer her off this war path. It might be easier to have a conversation about values/raising kids/fears when in a more relaxed environment OUTSIDE of the home. Working with her hands and producing something with pride may help calm the mind/anxieties, and she might even make some friends that she'll invest more time in.

Either get her in counseling, or a get a divorce. Or, if you don't want to do either of those things, be prepared to lose your kids.

You will lose them when this behavior continues if it isn't treated. She will ruin proms, parties, etc. Things every kid deserves. She will ruin college for them, and they'll hate both of you for that. She will ruin their engagements and jobs. She will ruin their weddings. She will ruin their pregnancy announcements. And you will also be blamed for these things

Therapist here. If she refuses to go to therapy you and your kids need to get into therapy. You see that there is a problem and don’t know how to fix it. Get some professionals involved. This is very serious and is effecting your children immensely. It’s not quite outright abuse in the ‘call CPS’ way but this is the kind of emotional abuse that permanently ruins family dynamics.

I’d say family therapy for everyone in the family willing to go and individual therapy for everyone in the family willing to go.

I don’t want to jump on the ‘divorce, lawyer up, delete Facebook’ train but this is very serious. This is deal breaker territory as she is emotionally abusing your children. It doesn’t matter if she realizes it or not. At this point your children would be better off with you two separated and living with you. It varies state by state but kids can generally have a stay in who they live with around 12.

The hard part is my hunch is that if you told her flat out that her behavior changes or you separate and take the kids she’d go nuclear. So get in therapy and consult with a professional what the most effective options are.

You’re responsible for your kids more than you are to your wife and right now she is doing serious emotional damage.

You have some good advice here but I wanted to add that if you don't protect (yes, PROTECT) your children from your wife, they will very likely resent you later on for not doing enough to protect them from the long lasting effects of your wife's parenting.

I don't really have too much to add beyond what others have said, except to say thank god your kids have you and that you understand what healthy boundaries look like. They will be forever grateful to you for supporting their normal development into adulthood.

If a parent insisted on sleeping over at my house with a bunch of children I would be concerned that they had some pedophile tendencies. Sorry. I would not let a female parent sleep with a bunch of girls and I would not a male parent sleep with a bunch of boys. Your wife needs help.

Okay so your wife definitely needs help however because she doesn't acknowledge she until she acknowledges this she won't do a thing to help sort it out.

My advice is to sit down with your wife and tell her you feel like there is big clashes in your relationship that you are struggling to work through and that you would like to go see a therapist together to try and keep your relationship on track. Don't bring up any of her behaviour ect as she will just arc up. Hopefully she agrees and if she does go in there and calmly discuss the issue and how its effecting her relationships with your kids. Tell her how your daughter is feeling and how you are worried she will push her away with the crazy attitude.

If the session goes okay and she wants to go back the therapist may even get the kids involved to tell them how her behaviour is effecting them.

Stay strong and keep fighting for your kids and their rights to grow up, they will know you are standing up for them and it will keep your relationship with them strong.

Your wife is just going to push your kids away. She is going to end up having both kids move out of home and never wanting to see her again and then this may impact how their relationship with you is.. Its one thing to make sure your kids are safe, its another to rock up at a friends house like a crazy lady demanding to be let in.

If she doesn't consider going to counselling to help you and your children out I would be questioning if your relationship is worth fighting for. Its going to be a case of whats more important.... Your wife or your kids.

I agree, it seems like OP will lose one or the other. If he stays with his wife he will lose his kids and have an awful time with her being angry or trying to parent them as adults if they allow contact.

Since your wife won't go to therapy, you take the kids and all go to family therapy to talk about strategies to deal with your wife. When she complains, tell her that she is welcome to join the family...the result of which will probably be a strong recommendation for her to get individual counseling.

Sign up for family therapy. Bring your kids. Invite your wife. When she decides that therapist is just siding with you, ask her to find the next one. Continue to see the original one until she finds a new one, joins in and gets help, or the kids and you learn skills to live with her issues.

Your wife reminds me of my mom. My mom didn't suffocate me as much. But she suffocated my older brother and youngest brother. She didnt stop calling my oldest brother baby until he was probably in middle school, same for my youngest brother. She constantly had to know where they were, who they hung out with, what they were doing, and was breathing down their neck the whole time. I get telling your parents where you are. But it was the scenario of mom spamming brothers with phone calls even though they told her where they would be. It eventually lead to them staying in their rooms whenever they aren't with friends. They barely came out. Whenever my mom interacted with them, they immediately yell at her and became annoyed. Whenever my mom tried doing anything for them, they yelled at her to leave them alone (such as trying to wash their dishes, do their laundry). So their relationship pretty much went to fucks. For my older brother, it was basically him ignoring her as much as possible during high school. And still partially now during college. He interacts with her when he needs to but the years of suffocation really did damage. The same thing is happening with my younger brother too. Yet my mom asks me why they cant talk to her nicely or call her. I've told her repeatedly before in the past (before it got really bad) to lay off, give them space, and stop intruding 24/7. But she didnt see anything wrong with what she did/still does. Which resulted in me and my younger sister to communicate with my brothers when she cant get a hold of them (since they are purposely ignoring her).

Then she started suffocating my sister and I but no where near the extent of my brothers. Our relationship with our mom isn't as bad as my brothers but the suffocation can do some real damage.

Perhaps you can try consulting with a therapist to see what steps you can take? Since your wife wont go, maybe you can pick up tactics of communicating with her about the issue. Also talking with your kids and seeing how they feel. Hear them out too.

So I’m a 20 year old dude and definitely can’t comment out of experience but something you say your wife said interested me. You said she’s worried about your daughter’s discussing/looking up of inappropriate things online. In my mind, that’s literally what being 14 is about. You start discussing topics you don’t quite understand, and that’s how you begin to grasp more adult concepts (sexuality, relationships, mental health, etc...).

Maybe if you could explain to your wife that your daughter needs to have the freedom of being “inappropriate,” she’d be understanding of giving her alone time with the girls? I wouldn’t necessarily phrase it like I just phrased it but it could help. Just my ¢2.

As for following her to college, I bet the daughter sees this coming. This is how you get them to apply as far away as possible, visit once a year at best and be put on an information diet.
Parenting means at some point you become a recurring NPC as opposed to the star of the show. That's how you know you did right, because they are supposed to run their own show at some point. Many parents don't deal well with that, but this here is something else altogether.

Kudos to the other parents for standing their ground, but it also makes me think they were warned, which means that in order to protect your social life your daughter is at a point where she has to warn other people about her mother's behavior.

This sounds like my mother. Give her an ultimatum to get therapy for her issues, if she refuses, get your kids out of that situation ASAP. Also, your daughter might need to talk to a therapist to help her come up with healthy coping strategies for dealing with her mother. Do not let your wife guilt you into being a “united front” it is my dad’s biggest regret.

I’m not married and I don’t have kids so I won’t be able to provide any advice, but I can tell you that your kids are extremely lucky to have you. I would be mortified if my mom tried to join my sleepovers as a kid. Having a parent who respects boundaries and privacy is crucial.

Have her read psychology articles or statements about overbearing parents. My mom ruined high school for me by trying to helicopter and I first started smoking almost to spite her then ended up liking it. If she continues to pressure your children I don't want them to turn to unhealthy outlets like I did. Hope the best for you and your family but your wife's toxic actions is weighing down everybody including herself because she thinks its the families fault she no longer feels wanted or validated. Try taking her out on vacations just the two of you like some long weekend type shit, I wish my dad had the sense to do that during the high school struggle years.

Your wife’s main concern with her daughter going to sleepovers should not be that she might see something inappropriate on the internet or talk about something inappropriate. Teenagers are just going to experience it in their own time and should be allowed to, within reason.

My mother used to sit outside my door and listen to sleepovers, eavesdrop on phone calls and read my diary/text messages while I was in the shower and would punish accordingly (like grounded me for telling a boy I liked him and wanted to kiss him or complaining about my mom to a friend). It made me feel like I wasn’t allowed to say anything that was really on my mind or have intimacy or friendship with anyone but her.

I wasn’t safe anywhere, and I felt like she had way too strong of a presence in relation to how I saw relationships/sex. When I had my first hug from a boy I couldn’t enjoy it because all I could feel is shame about what my mother will say when she found out, and that feeling and experiencing those things aren’t for me, because I was too young and my mother didn’t want me to feel that way. I was too old to have that feeling. Drove a huge wedge between us.

My mom had me convinced that holding hands with a boy in public meant you were a whore. She would say "if they are holding hands in public, imagine what they are doing in private." Never had a boyfriend till I went to college, and even then, I found reasons for my hands to be unavailable to hold. Fun times. She would say all sorts of stuff about me and my step dad when she was drinking.... I was very involved in sports, and I didn't have my period for a year. A friend freaked me out, since I didn't want the whole neighborhood knowing, I told my dad, and he got me a doc appointment. She found out, got pissed. They gave me birth control since I didn't have the body fat to produce enough estrogen, and she made me terrified of blood clots to the point I stopped taking it.

Honestly, she was not so involved to the point of supervising, let alone showing up at my friend's house when I had a sleep over.

My (step)dad wasnt perfect either, both were very strict. I always felt everything was my fault, or my parents were fighting because of me, because ultimately, they were actually arguing about things to do with me. That alone is a horrible feeling for a child, being the cause of the arguments between their parents.

Sounds exactly like how my mom used to act - and still has a tendency to do so. Have you looked into narcissistic parenting? After struggling for years to understand my mom's POV, I realized this was her personality. How was your wife's upbringing? Did she have friends? Freedom? A close motherly relationship ? They have a tendency to try to live through their children's achievements, and also victimize themselves (EX. I am not doing anything wrong here, the whole world's against me) and won't see reason. Unfortunately, my solace came with my parent's divorce over these kind of issues, and I was able to seperate myself from my mom and my dad is my closest parent.

I think your daughter will be forever grateful for your support. Don't let her feel alone! But it's so so hard to get your wife to understand this... if she won't go to therapy, and this is really affecting your life, you need to take a huge stand. I wish you all the luck.

She is going to smother and kill her relationship with her daughter if she doesn't back the fuck off and get her head right.

I had a similar dynamic with my mother, except I had no life away from her except for school, no friends that I saw outside of school. I could go to the library by myself and that was it. And she wanted us to be besties and have a close relationship and meanwhile isolated me from normal teenaged life. She read my diary and chided me for the contents of it.

I went away to uni an minimised contact. I straight up didn't talk to her for about 10 years.

I wish there had been someone there to make her see reason or try to keep her in line.

Keep fighting for your kids and be willing to divorce her if necessary. Right now your daughter probably appreciates that you're trying to make the crazy stop. But if you can't get your wife to knock it off and you stay with her and let it become normal, I guarantee that one day your daughter's going to realise that if she has one bad parent and one good parent, then she has two bad parents.

This is insane, and something I saw a lot with stay at home moms when i was a teenager. When we would go to their house, they were always too involved and chiming in, whereas at my house my parents left us in the basement all night and did their own thing.

Did she used to work? Is it possible for her to get back into it? If not, does she have any hobbies or interests she can dive into? This just really sounds like a complete lack of life or motivation outside of her kids.

It’s unacceptable that she’s not in therapy yet- that’s not your fault, but your kids shouldn’t be around her if she won’t go, period. She is doing so much damage to them and to you (lying to you, berating you, breaking down in front of you and the kids). Your wife can be mad at you until the sun goes dim but don’t stop supporting your kids and their independence. She’s behaving completely inappropriately- if I was one of your daughter’s friends I’d be extremely uncomfortable having a parent sit in on a sleepover with the full intent of staying down there the whole night. It’s perverse that she wants to hang out with and then sleep in the same room as a group of teenage girls instead of with you, her husband. If you pulled a stunt like that, someone would have called the police. Your daughter is 14 so there’s still 4 more years until college, but what happens when she wants to date? Or go on a trip? Your wife can’t handle her being gone for one night with friends. This isn’t even new behavior- your wife has been smothering them their whole lives because her only identity is through motherhood. That’s unhealthy. It’s been unhealthy. I wish your family the best, because this situation is frightening.

My stepmom was kinda like this. She tried to interfere with my stuff all the time, so as I grew older (around the age of 15-16) I began to distant myself from her, the more intrusive she was, the more I ignored her. I moved out as soon as I graduated because of her, and now I only see or talk to her on holidays. The only thing her behaviour taught me back then was how to lie to her and how to avoid her at all costs, which carried on into my adult life as well. And yes I also regularly see a therapist, mainly because of her past behaviour.
I think you should tell your wife this, because these are the consequences.

Being a mother changes. She doesn’t still stick a boob in their mouths to calm them when they cry. That stage ended. A new stage started. She went from mama to mommy. Now that stage is over. She can’t fix hurts with kisses. She went from mommy to mom. And being mom is awesome.

Her job is creating independent people who can thrive on their own one day. She can’t protect your daughter from the world. She can only prepare her for it, trust her to make the right decisions, and be there when she does make mistakes.

Wife is in denial about why though and insists that it's because daughter's friends are too bossy.

She feels desperate right now about her children separating from here. It feels extremely time sensitive so she's acting urgently, i.e. frantically. Try and remember that when you approach her, it'll make it easier for you. Is she normally a logical and reasonable person?

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She, or you together need to find a hobby that will distract her on the nights of the sleep overs. Can you make them into date nights for you two, to reconnect so she can see, and learn to appreciate, what life will be like for her after raising children? That could be helpful.

It’s not good when kids are not able to expose themselves to danger or new experiences that’s how we learn to be competent. Nothing is worse then an incompetent young adult with no clue how to make it on their own. I hope she has a wake up call and starts focusing on herself again and growing as a person.

I would let her know that she is hurting her daughter by not allowing her to grow and experience some independence in her teenage years.

If she keeps on going with your daughter or showing up uninvited to stuff, your daughter's friends will likely stop hanging out with your daughter. Nothing could make your daughter hate her mom more than losing all of her friends. At 14 years old peer friendships are super important.

I would ask your wife if she wants her daughter to have no friends because she drove them all away. You could also ask if she wants her daughter to hate her for it?

A lot of other people recommended counseling, which is a good idea. You could confront her with these questions if she refuses to go to counseling or continues to impose herself on your daughter's sleepovers.

That is so creepy. My parents would have been deeply concerned for my welfare if I went to my friends house and their mum slept in the room with us and I probably would not have been allowed to see that friend anymore. I’m not insinuating or suggesting your wife would abuse another child but from another outside perspective, these parents must be asking themselves “why does this woman need to sleep in the same room as the children?” It just looks bad. And seeing any adult besides my parents and grandparents in their pyjamas is just weird. Honestly gives me spooks.

She claims the two of you need to have a united front yet she goes behind your back saying she’s going to the grocery store but tries to sleepover at your daughters friends house. What did she think would have happened when she had been gone for hours and you didn’t know where she was? How did she plan to explain to police had they come searching for her?
And if your kids are in school doesn’t that make her a housewife and not a SAHM? (I have been neither, genuinely curious about what she does all day).

There need to be consequences. Maybe go to counselling by yourself, try to learn some techniques to help you get through to her and to also help your kids deal with this. If she doesn’t change her habits her kids will resent her and she could lose her whole family. But unfortunately you can only lead a horse to water, you can’t make it drink.

I am sure you've tried, but this will 100% impact your wife's relationship with your daughter moving forward. I am the oldest of 3 daughters, and my mom was a SAHM for all my childhood/teen years. When I was in 7th or 8th grade, she too started acting like this. She would go through my journals, read my notes from friends (I had them in a box in my room, this was like 2001, no cell phones really), make me leave the basement door open when I was downstairs with friends. It only got worse the older I got - she started reading my text messages, if I said i was sleeping over at a friends house, she would make me call them from my friends house phone at obscure hours to make sure I was really there, when I got my license she would drive by to make sure my car was really where I said it was. All this made me do was lie to her, constantly, and find more creative ways to deceive her. It absolutely destroyed my relationship with my mom from ages 14-22. Things only got better when I moved away from home after college and was entirely financially and otherwise independent from my parents.

I still struggle with my relationship with my mom as a result of all the years of her being a helicopter parent. You need to explain this to your wife that it is not because your daughter doesn't "need" her, it's because your daughter is growing up, getting ideas and forming relationships on her own and that is a healthy part of growing up and life! My dad always tried to get us out to do something as a family when he noticed my mom going through these crazy bouts (they are now divorced) which really helped.

Be kind to your daughter, being a 14 year old girl is complicated enough. I hope your wife can get the help she needs.

Oh my god. Your wife WILL ruin your daughters friendships if she keeps doing this. Please talk to your daughter and address any anxious thoughts she might have. She really needs help, otherwise this will only continue to happen and even get worse

This is my mum to a T. On the plus side your kids are going to be very independent.

On the downside, this is a tough one to solve and you’re just going to have to stick to your guns in not supporting your wife in this madness.

My dad tried to get my mum to work, have hobbies, seek professional help, anything to give her purpose outside of me. None of it worked. The only thing I can think of is warning your wife that her behaviour is going to push her children away (mum is on a strict information diet) but it sounds like she’s going to have to live through that to learn it.

I would try to tell her, "You're hurting our relationship with our daughter, and her relationship with her friends and friends' parents. Enough is enough. If you don't try to get some help, you're going to lose her."

I would try to tell her, "You're hurting our relationship with pur daughter, and her relationship with her friends and friends' parents. Enough is enough. If you don't try to get some help, you're going to lose her."

That's a hard situation, should i asume that you have tried to explain her that she is actually achieving the exact opposite of what she wants? If not you got break it down for her.

I think right now she is focused on the how she wants to do things rather on the why... You need to make her reflex on what she wants to prevent... Maybe seeing porn? Probably unavoidable, and you should sit down with your daughter to explain her this kind of stuff but as friend rather than a parent. That's going to be hard becuase you got to build that trust.

Your daughter is on her "I'm already and adult i can handled myself alone", which i think you already get, but your wife doesn't or doesn't want....

Maybe the strategy could be that you sit with your wife and try to list the problems that she wants to prevent and together try to hatch different strategies to address her... I think that's the best way, it may prove to be hard cuz as you pointed out the core problem could be that she feels that her offspring i running away and she doesn't want... If that's the case you could try to frame the discussion in a way that she may feel that you actually feel the same and that's what you want achieve on the long run.

I want to applaud you for sticking to your guns on this one. It’s a delicate topic. My dad did the opposite, and when my mom got like this when I went to college he’d whine and guilt me, and often threaten me (and still does, but f that at this point) and I wound up driving home 3 hours every weekend to coddle my mom. I made no friends because of this, and have only now even begun to find my identity in my early 30s. I’ve had issues relating to peers practically my whole life.

I was also my mother’s therapist, as my dad was in a different city at work most of the time. I’d spend hours and hours and hours on the phone with her listening to her literally cry about her problems with herself, her lack of social life, which she didn’t want to do anything about, her subsequent boredom, her childhood, her mom (who is exactly like her), her marriage to my dad. She’d share very inappropriate things about her relationship with my dad, like details about their sex lives, and we bonded over complaining about him (my mom was a child, so my dad was my disciplinarian).

The dynamic in my family was very different from yours, obviously. My dad saw the issues with my mom as a family problem, but since his “role” was working a stressful career to provide for us (my mom also a SAHM—with very expensive taste, I might add), once I got “old enough”, it was seen as my responsibility to handle. No one realized or cared that this crisis of hers coincided with—and was doubtless because of—my need for independence. I went into crises of my own time and again—doubtless due to this parentification—and was told to snap out of it so I could take care of mom and do well in school. Because of the way things went down, I grew up to become a codependent “caregiver”, and wound up in a lot of abusive relationships with broken men I wanted to “fix”.

I also begged her to get therapy, and she still never has. But now I’m over trying to save, take care of, and parent my own mother who never did any of those things for me. I’ve never been bitter about it, but I’m damn sure I should be!

Continue being the parent and spouse your family needs. Continue reality checking your wife. Maybe reach out to your kids and very diplomatically give them permission to speak with you about how it makes them feel. Once they’re comfortable talking to you about their mom (never you talking/venting to them about her! I’m sure you know this golden rule), and you have a chance to help them frame the issue (again *diplomatically) It may also be a good idea to have a family meeting of sorts where the kids can speak with their mom directly with you there for support of everyone, including mom, who doubtless needs it. While this may seem borderline ‘Interventional’, A) I’d argue it’s serious enough to require it and B) If they’re not given the permission, the outlet, and the emotions coaching to do it this way, I guarantee it’s going to fester and eventually blow up, with the kids voicing it one day out of frustration, and the hurt feelings and damage that can do to the fam is worth doing the extra work up front to avoid. It may also help your wife to hear it from your kids—as long as she doesn’t think you coached them, although she will likely feel ganged up on, but hopefully she’ll realize that’s not the spirit of the discussion if you approach it carefully.

Lastly, family dynamics are very tricky. It can be overwhelming and isolating to realize that the only people who can truly understand your dynamic is others in the family, and even more isolating to realize—when you’re on opposite sides of an issue with your spouse, as you are—that the only people left who might understand you are your children. Find someone to talk to outside your family. It doesn’t have to be a therapist, a trusted friend is just as good, but find someone to spill everything to, who you can trust to vent to on occasion. And maybe consider couple’s counselling with your wife, or family counselling as a group.

Good luck, and good job. You’re being very brave and strong for your family here. I hope it works out well soon :)

Your wife is too connected to the kids, and needs to get a identity other than "mom" now. If she continues, she will ruin her relationship with the kids. You and the other parents are not wrong, besides, she's not letting your children experience things teenagers normally do, and learn from. She's become a hoover mother. One thing I recommned doing is telling your wife to sit down and ask her, if she was in daughter's shoes, how would she feel being 14 and having her mother chasing her around? She wouldn't feel independent, trusted, or responsible. She needs to feel that at her age, and luckily, your daughter recognizes that and has made a boundary (GOOD ON HER!), basically saying she won't have sleep overs at home if mom can't let her be.

I know it’s not funny but your short response cracked me up. I also have a 15 year old daughter and 13 year old son. They mostly find me annoying now and it’s a bummer but they have to grow up sometime. OP’s wife is indeed losing it.

Bless you for being such an amazing parent. Some people grow up with no sensible parents so having you there to clearly view the madness for what it is AND take an active stand against it is what will separate your kids from a life with some issues re their mom and a life of full blown cptsd and the rest of the hell that comes along with an abusive upbringing. Sincerely, thank you

One of the first rules of therapy is not to outright deny someone's delusions (which might be too strong of a word for this situation, but it's late and I don't have brainpower to think of an appropriate synonym, so I apologize in advance) at first. In regards towards getting your wife to go to therapy, you might have better luck convincing her to go for reasons in line with her beliefs. For example, "All of this drama with out daughter has been so tough on you, maybe you should see someone you can vent to." It's manipulative, but as a former teenage girl there's few things as important as a healthy social life and a sense of independence, and it's worth using drastic measures at this point imo. Your wife might smell something's up since you've recommended therapy already, but I also think it's necessary in the long term and I'm sure you know your wife well enough to figure something out.

OP you need to show her this thread, there may be enough others telling the truth here and their experiences that she is scared straight. There will probably be tears and some anger as they are brutally honest comments but everyone is of one mind here that she isnt inexcusably wrong here and needs to change her behavior ASAP for the sake of her children and you as well.

This might not help, but does your wife have a girlfriend she could go on a trip with?

Maybe you can set it up or encourage her to take a trip she always wanted with a friend. A cruise to Greece or a week in Puerto Rico... something far enough that it’s hard for her to be there for everything.

Some time away with a human outside her immediate control might help her remember how to behave as a non mother.

If this doesn’t work, maybe a relative who needs help. A sick parent, a moving niece, someone who could use the attention, help your wife feel validated, and deflate some of the hostility while giving your family some time to breathe and come up with a game plan.

Wow, this post is so sad. I mean no disrespect but it sounds like your wife is having some sort of a mental breakdown. Your daughter has every right to be embarrassed, I was modified reading this. How does your wife have friends with behavior like this? Trying to barge in to a sleepover and fighting with a parent is crazy unacceptable. It's totally appropriate to be talking about boys at 14. I shudder to think what she will do when your daughter starts to date or attend dances. This goes waaaay beyond being over protective and will forever damage your children's relationships with her. It's so important your daughter knows she is doing nothing wrong. Surely other family members see this unhealthy behavior too. Your wife needs help NOW.

I feel like you’re already taking a good step in supporting your children and making sure you take their side in this, so that they know that this isn’t something that should be normalized. I would even suggest offering them the option to see a therapist if they feel like it might help them, or if you feel like it may. It’s really important in these types of situations where someone is being mentally or emotionally manipulative that the people it is against don’t get bullied over by the person doing it. It may also help for you to possibly see a therapist yourself, and it may help you come out with some advice on how to approach this.

I know for myself growing up, I had only a very small group of friends, who all loved my mom because she was the “cool mom”. She’d take us places, do fun things with us, talked with us about things. It was great up until I got older. I fell out with all my friends and my mom never had a large social group to begin with, so it was kind of just the two of us, but now as an adult I have a better social life than my mom and she’s definitely lashed out at me in very much a “why are you allowed to have what I don’t” type of way. My best advice is do not let a situation like this happen with your wife and daughter, as it makes for a very fractured relationship going forward.

I know your wife is very resistant to therapy, so I’d say if anything try to introduce new things into her life that will maybe help her form her own life. Do you have any couple friends or know anyone who shares similar interests with the two of you or her that you can get together with? Can you possibly find events or social gatherings in your area that you could take her to as a way to try new things and meet new people? Does she have any friends that maybe she’s been distant from that you could speak to and perhaps help them reconnect? She needs to have her own life and identity outside of being a mother. Even if it’s just a hobby or something. Maybe suggest even, if she is that concerned about the other girls parents, getting all of you together for a dinner sometime to talk about your kids and any discomforts anyone may have so she might be more at ease and possibly get to know the other parents better?

Lastly, if it comes down to it, perhaps find a safe way for you children to let her know how her behavior makes them feels. Even if it is something like writing a letter letting her know their feelings or something of the sort. It’s important their voices be heard by her, and that she listens. If she’s not willing to do that for her kids, listen to and respect them, then it is going to continue to get worse going forward.

So your wife got married and had kids at 23. She has literally no idea how to be her own person - her entire identity is 'mom'. Obviously therapy - you need to come down way harder on this, don't tell her it's therapy for 'anxiety' and 'unfounded fears', because it is obviously for something far deeper.

Is she able to get a job or volunteer? Sounds like she really wants to look after someone but your kids don’t need it anymore. Anything from animal shelters and old persons homes take volunteers. Some day cares also have volunteer teachers (or she can be an unqualified paid teacher, but they don’t make as much). One of my friends mums was also a stay at home mum most of her life and she ended up getting a job at a boarding school and the kids there loved her because even tho they’re at that teenage age, they’re still missing home.

Your wife’s behavior is extreme. You’re in a situation that needs addressed ASAP, no more going back and forth on this issue. She needs to see a doctor. Maybe she’s suffering from depression or some kind of mental illness. It sounds like her entire identity is wrapped up with the kids and she can’t handle losing that. But she literally has to. There’s no other option. The kids are only getting older and more independent.

Once she’s on medication (if that’s needed) and in therapy, maybe she’ll be in the right mental space to start thinking about the things she wants to do. She could volunteer, take a class, join a gym, do a relaxing hobby like gardening. Maybe get a cat she can obsess over and clean up after.

I have a 15 year old daughter. We’re very close but our relationship has definitely changed since she entered her teen years. It stings a little, sure. I miss having a kid that snuggles with me and needs me for everything. But I can’t imagine doing what your wife is doing. I’ve never even heard of a parent wanting to attend sleepovers at someone else’s house! That’s not a normal thought, and it’s beyond to actually act on it.

I am going to attempt to give you a practical approach to solving the situation.

You know your wife's feelings are irrational, and you're absolutely correct in not supporting them. However, the way your wife is feeling right now is alone, unsupported, anxious and out of control.

When you outright deny her feelings, you're subconsciously confirming her worst fears that she is bound to be alone. This is probably exacerbated by the fact that she is likely alone all day by herself, mulling over her paranoid, anxious thoughts.

The best thing you can do is sit down with her (privately, without the children and in a calm situation) and tell her exactly how you feel about the situation. Don't allow her to derail the conversation by shifting blame, and don't allow her to guilt trip you. Lay out a clear plan of action (that it is imperative she go to therapy, for example). Tell her how the situation is affecting you. Let her get all her fears out, but again steer the conversation so that it is solutions-based.

If she continues to not listen to you, then accept the situation is now out of your control. Take steps to secure your own mental health and the wellbeing of your children. You can't control the actions of others who do not want to do as you say.

Like a lot of people here, this sounds a lot like my own parents' dynamics. My mum was a SAHM, and progressed from slightly overprotective, to overbearing and cruel after us kids became preteens. Like you, our dad always warned her that she would ruin her relationship with us if she continued to act that way...which is exactly what happened. I have spoken to her maybe twice in two years (I'm 20 now) and she has not changed her behaviour, or shown any understanding of why nobody in the family talks to her anymore. It took many years for the full extent of her hidden abuse to become clear, at which point my dad divorced her. If he'd divorced her earlier and successfully gotten full custody, we might have been spared a lot of pain. I sincerely hope this isn't the case for your family - I think your eyes are a lot more open than my fathers were at this time, and that could go a long way to preserving your children's relationship with at least one parent. Take my advice with a grain of salt since I don't have any experience of marriage, know your wife etc - but if she won't be convinced and continues to harm your children, divorce might be your only option. I'm sorry.

I'm so sorry. She needs a lot of help. A friends mom was like this and she kept trying to baby her kids into their mid 20s. Didn't end well because her kids now resent her and know she doesn't have a life outside of them which isn't healthy or normal. Your wife needs hobbies and a job but she clearly doesn't think so because she has forgotten who she is as an individual. Tell her this will impact her future relationship with her children. When it's optional for them to be in her life they won't be around very often if she keeps up with this smothering behavior. I know you are married but maybe you can give her a financial reason as to why it would help you all out to have another income. Honestly I don't know you've gotten a lot of good advice. It's just very sad behavior that will cause even more problems and resentments. It needs to be addressed or you will not have them sticking around long. 10 more years will go by fast. The parenting years are so important but it's about teaching your children to be self sufficient and make the right decisions for themselves. On their own. 18 years in a person's life compared to the next 60 or so goes by so fast. Children are supposed to become independent adults. That's the goal of parenting. Not keeping them under your thumb for as long as possible. Please get her help. Please don't allow her to ruin the relationship you and her have with your children.

My mother did this to me. It meant one friend didn’t come visit me and it took a year for her to tell me why. She is affecting her daughters ability to trust her mother and making her feel smothered. Your wife needs to go to counselling pronto. This must be a difficult situation to be in, good on you for advocating for both your daughter and your wife.

I would try explain to your wife a comparison. As a teenager, would you want/include your mother in your sleepovers or get together with your friends? The excuse of saying that other parents are not trustworthy is just that, an excuse, and should not be accepted. Your wife is intentionally sabotaging your daughter’s friendships to isolate her and force a relationship with just her, in the end it’s just going to push your daughter away further.

My suggestion, I think having a family meeting is necessary, everyone needs to explain to your wife how her behavior is negatively impacting them and the outcome of her behavior. She is going to deny, cry, and blame everyone else, but it needs to be stated and she needs to seek help.

You’ve literally done everything a sane and rational person would. There is not a single piece of advice I can think to give out.

You married a woman with no hobbies and no social circle and her entire existence and reason for being alive is those kids.

To her, she is the reason the kids are alive and thriving. Without her, they can’t thrive. She had zero mental capacity to understand they don’t need her as much anymore and her mind literally cannot handle it.

I have no clue how to help you. You can’t help someone who refuses to help themselves. Good luck, this is a tough one.

My first thought was to set up counselling or therapy with someone willing to do it outdoors/not in an office so you can surprise your wife with an outing and when she balks at the thought, have your daughter say something along the lines of, "This is how you make me feel when you invite yourself into my time with my friends even when I've already told you I'm not comfortable." But that's not productive.

This needs a three-step approach:

Have your kids write letters to Mom on how they feel and why they've distanced themselves from her. Encourage them to be frank and kind. This is a good way to reinforce to your daughters that they should be comfortable with expressing their discomfort with a situation, even if the person causing them discomfort is a relative. If they want to, they can discuss this face to face, but I'm suggesting a letter so they can express themselves properly and so she can think about what's in the letter.

Set up family time once a week. Whether it's a weekend lunch, a movie night, or an afternoon at the park, create the opportunity for you to catch up. Talk about your work, encourage the kids to talk about school, ask each other about the shows you watch or your other interests. This gives you a natural opportunity to bond and gives you and your kids boundaries as well.

Encourage your wife to take on hobbies, take classes, go back to school, seek out hobby groups. She needs an identity beyond mom and wife. Her daughters will benefit from two parents who have lives outside of them, because it will only enrich your relationship to have all of these identities, ideas, and interests outside of what you were born and married into.

Maybe get her a puppy for Christmas. Something too tiny and precious to resist doting on. Maybe she'll divert a good portion of that energy onto it. My parents have a shihtzu that they refer to as my sister lol. She was crazy cute as a puppy, and still is.

Family counselling where everyone gets to air their issues on a civil, controlled platform is the next best thing. She won't try couples or independent therapy, but if she sees all her children agree to attend counselling, you might make ground. If you don't, it's still valuable for your other children to be given the platform and tools by professionals to deal with your wife.

This will and is damaging your children, as well as her relationship with them. It's also damaging your children's social lives. Other kids will talk about your daughters "crazy mother, she tries to crash our sleepovers! It's so weird!" Your daughter is humiliated by the fact her own mother can't act like a well-adjusted adult.

I don’t have any advice to offer but I’m the baby in my family and I had a majorly overbearing mother growing up and still do. She didn’t do it to my siblings so I’m assuming it was because I’m the youngest. I’m currently 20 and she still constantly wants to know what I’m doing, where I am (has a tracker on me), and just generally calls and texts me constantly if I’m not at home. It’s led to me resenting her a bit even though I still love her very much. We argue a lot and I feel like it’s mostly due to the fact that she still treats me like a baby. I just wanted to let you know that a lot of mothers go through this but if you can get her to back off, at least a little bit, it’ll help avoid more strain on their relationship in the future. Good luck to you.

It's always hard to let your children become independent, especially since the maternal instinct is to love and protect. If your daughter has been most of her social interactions over the last years, then it just adds to the difficulty.

Maybe you should have your daughter tell her how it is she's making her feel and tell her what's she's doing to her feelings. That'd be cool for your daughter even to know that you have her back on this.
So what if they're looking up and talking about inappropriate things?! She's at the age where that's normal and she needs to know that. You really need to get her to see how out of line and insulting she is by straight up being hurtful to her. She needs it.

Scanning the comments quickly I’ve seen people mention jobs, hobbies. My mom is a stay at home but has her own business selling stuff so she’s happy. Perhaps something where she sells things and is compelled to get to know other people, get her own friends. Pretty much something to take her mind off.

But also another suggestion is to have a family night. I suggest board games because interactive.

Classic mother identity crisis.
This is more common than you think.
Your wife need friends and activities of her own. She has put so much of her identity into being “mom” that she’s feels like she’s losing a part of herself and she’s panicking.

It is always a good idea to speak with a therapist, maybe go together. That way you can understand where her head is.

Encourage her to sign up for a class or something. My mom signed up for cake decorating and advanced sewing courses at a local craft store in order to meet other people.

Focus on doing what it takes to keep your children safe from their mother's smothering. That may mean some form of family therapy that doesn't include mom. Your daughter is entering a critical phase of development and you may have to choose between being married to a crazy woman or supporting your kids.

Original Post:

So some background, we've been married almost 15 years. Our oldest daughter is 14, younger son is 10. My wife is currently a SAHM and has been for the past decade. I feel like she's going through a personal crisis right now where our youngest has become fiercely independent and so is our oldest, so she feels like she's losing her babies. Nonetheless, I think the way she's dealing with it is very harmful to our kids and I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place because she refuses to get any therapy/counseling (believe me I've tried) and our kids are becoming increasingly distant from their overbearing mother. I can only do so much to mediate things but I'm feeling stuck.

Our daughter, basically in the past year, has made a very close group of friends and they like to have girls sleepovers every Friday. It's a great development from elementary where she had very few friends and felt lonely. She's at the age where she likes to do things with her friends alone (like see movies, go to the mall, etc) and what I always do is drop her off and pick her up at a predetermined time. This is what all her friends' parents do as well.

Anyways, recently my wife has gotten more and more upset because she wants to join our daughter on their sleepovers. At first it started off as my wife wanting our daughter to host all sleepovers at our house, which was fine, but daughter quickly changed her mind when she realized mom was there ALL the time. I tried to make her come upstairs with me and just hang out in the kitchen/living room/whatever while the girls played in the basement downstairs but my wife refused. She HAD to be down there with the rest of the girls, she'd even bring down her own blankets/pillows to sleep with them. Obviously our daughter was upset and embarrassed and now refuses to have sleepovers at our own house. Wife is in denial about why though and insists that it's because daughter's friends are too bossy.

So now the biggest issue has to do with my wife wanting to go with our daughter on her sleepovers away. She insists that she just wants to keep an eye on the girls and she's worried about them looking up inappropriate things on the internet or discussing inappropriate things. She says she feels the other parents aren't responsible enough and that's why she needs to go. This has been a huge thing between mom and daughter, with our daughter now actively avoiding her mom even at home.

I'm really frustrated because I tell my wife that we need to get some counseling for her anxiety/unfounded fears and yet she blows up at me. She claims that I'm not supporting her enough on this one matter (barging in on sleepovers) and that we need to be a united front to the other parents. She once showed up at our daughter's friends house (during a sleepover) demanding to be let in. I didn't even know this because she told ME she was going to the grocery store. The friends' parents flat out refused and told her to go home in a rude manner, so she came home crying to me saying that we needed to confront them as a team. I refused as well.

Honestly what is left for me to do if my wife A) refuses therapy/counseling for her fears and B) won't listen to reason when it comes to why she can't join teenagers' sleepovers? She's also perpetually mad at me for not siding with her, even though I tell her I think she's being really unfair and exhibiting bad parenting to our two kids, who have really pulled away from her in the past 2 years as a result of her steamrolling over their growing independence.

What is left to do??

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tldr-- Wife insists on joining our teenage daughter on her sleepovers with friends. Daughter is embarrassed and distant from mom, and wife is angry I'm not supporting her enough on this. I'm stuck because wife also refuses all therapy for her unfounded fears and anxieties. What can I do still?

I don’t really have any further advice to give beyond getting her into therapy. Her behavior sounds so much like borderline personality disorder, except that is something you would have suspected before this.

Needless to say, she can’t rely on your kids to fulfill her emotional needs. Her behavior is going to create a long term scenario she likely fears the most - your daughter completely avoiding her once she’s on her own.

Children are supposed to crave independence and create their own lives and friendships. That is healthy!! It would be concerning if your daughter wanted her mom included in all of her social gatherings. Your wife needs tools to learn how to step back and want what’s best for her daughter (independence, close friendships, confidence.)

It might be a good idea to have a conversation with your daughter. Explain why her mother is acting like this and that you are trying to help her with how her mother is acting. She needs to know someone is on her side. Otherwise she might withdraw more and fall for the first bad boy who calls her prety and says he loves her

I'm 21, and my mom was always a sahm, hasn't worked a job a day in her life. She smothered me as a child, I was never allowed to go to or have sleepovers and she always invaded my personal space and privacy. She would read my texts out loud to embarrass me, and she would insist on going places with me to "make sure I wasn't whoring myself out. At 14, she was a physically and emotionally abusive mom to me. She needs help.

Your wife needs her own life. But you need to have some empathy (even a shred) for what she is going through. Her kids have been her literal existence for over a decade and now that is going away and she is sent into an utter tailspin. Her meaning for living and her purpose in life is going out the window and she does not know what to do, so she is clinging to her children in a way that is unhealthy. This conflict in itself....giving her something to do. She has a new cause she can take up...being the vigilant protector of the teen girls because god forbid they talk about boys, making out and sex. I would consider a few sessions of family therapy, with your children, so they have an opportunity to share with mom how she makes them feel. This would also be a chance to get her in front of a professional and make it about everyone, not just her, with the hope of treatment moving to focus on her once she has realized what she is doing. You could also suggest couples counseling. If she flat out refuses, you need to consider making this non-negotiable. She gets help or someone is leaving but the kids will not be with her.

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Besides this, encourage her to get the hell out of the house and do something productive with her life. What does she enjoy? Does she have unmet educational and career goals? Start talking about your lives together, as married adults now that your kids are gaining independence. Do you want to travel together? Down size and move to the beach? Open a business? Live in a van down by the river? Help her see there is a future, there are possibilities and her meaning for life is not gone out the window. It is simply changing. Empathize that transition and kids growing up is hard....that you get pangs when you see your daughter, once a helpless baby, running into the mall alone with her friends.

Might get downvoted for this but I’m gonna go this route. It might suck but be firm and say that if she doesn’t come to therapy with you or go to therapy on her own that you will call for a divorce because she is starting to alienate her children. Frankly it seems almost borderline abuse.

Your wife’s entire focus for 14 years has been raising children. To “just get a job” or “just get a hobby” is terrible advice. It won’t shut off who she’s been for 14 years. She needs to talk to someone. She does not even see how out of whack her behavior is and how she is forever destroying her relationship with her kids. Eventually, she will need to realize she needs other things to focus on other than the children- but you need to recognize: after only identifying as one thing- after only seeing yourself as one thing- now that thing is going away and she is desperately trying to hang onto it. How much time do you spend with her?

It sounds like your wife doesn't see your daughter as a separate person; your daughter is an extension of your wife and must be kept under control and perform in the right way. How the hell you would be able to convince her otherwise I do not know. This is no way a diagnosis, but I am getting a whiff of narcissism or other cluster B personality disorder.

Where is the fix? You have power here being the only one earning money. Get counseling yourself.

You didn't cause your wife's issues, and you can't cure them. Good luck.

OP, I agree that your wife’s identity is crumbling as the kids mature. She needs something that adds value to her life and keeps her mind occupied. I watched my mother-in-law go through this with her son (my husband), and I sought therapy myself to handle her overbearing intrusiveness - this is precisely what my therapist described. Between you and your kids, it will help to set boundaries with her and assert them in a loving way. The more reassured your wife feels by your kids, the calmer she will feel. Has your daughter ever expressed to your wife how smothered she feels?
Also just wanted to say that I think you sound like a wonderful, engaged and present dad.

OP, I agree that your wife’s identity is crumbling as the kids mature. She needs something that adds value to her life and keeps her mind occupied. I watched my mother-in-law go through this with her son (my husband), and I sought therapy myself to handle her overbearing intrusiveness - this is precisely what my therapist described. Between you and your kids, it will help to set boundaries and assert them in a loving way. The more reassured your wife feels by your kids, the calmer she will feel. Has your daughter ever expressed to your wife how smothered she feels? Perhaps that would help, if some in a reassuring way.
Also just wanted to say that I think you sound like a wonderful, engaged and present dad.

This is insane. Willing to be OP is not telling the whole story. Youre not just a normal well adjusted person on every other front except u stalk your own daughters sleepovers and have to be barred from entrance by the real parents. I can just imagine all of the other crazy shit she has done and is doing. Seriously op you need to see a therapist if she wont and discuss what to do before she snaps and hurts herself or the kids or does irreversible psychological damage. I hope peoples reactions on here make you realize just how abnormal and creepy this is. Good luck man. Good god

Your wife is going to lose your daughter if she keeps going down this path. It could even cost your marriage at this rate. It sounds like you're already doing everything right in standing by your daughter and being supportive.

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Your wife is obviously suffering extreme anxiety at the thought of not being needed anymore. Even if she is refusing therapy, or medical intervention, she needs it and I think you need to keep telling her. Be honest and from a place of love. She won't want to hear 'you need therapy' or 'you need to get help' - you need to sit her down and get her to talk about how she feels and offer her therapy as a way to help her. The fact that she's already caused a scene and has accused other parents of not being good enough to host sleep overs tells me that she is not only incredibly anxious, she is willing to embarrass your daughter and risk your daughters friendships in turn. This needs to be stopped ASAP. Other parents may stop letting their kids come to your house, or worse, they may stop letting your daughter go to theirs. If she does that to your daughter, your daughter will never forgive her.

Your daughter is at an age where this sort of thing is particularly harmful and where it can have any number of long-term consequences for her. Whether or not your wife is anxiety-prone and stubborn, rather than full-on disordered as some others in this thread have suggested, will become know when you give her an ultimatum which you absolutely should at this point to protect your daughter. When faced with the potential loss of her marriage, she will seek help to save it. If not, there may be deeper issues that aren't easily fixed. This could all be the result of the sort of perseverance born of anxiety, or she could really be in crisis and spiraling out of control. It doesn't matter because your daughter is being harmed and you have to protect her if you are going to fulfill your parental duty. I am so concerned about the harm that has already been done. I can't imagine how awful that must be for an adolescent girl. Her mother just shows up to sleepovers? That is entirely unacceptable and I am so proud of those other parents for protecting your daughter when she needed it.

Have you brought up to your wife how her need for absolute control over every aspect of her children’s lives could actually push your kids into rebelling in the way she’s so scared of?

Your kids clearly feel smothered by her already, and rightly feel like their mom won’t listen to them. What happens in a year or two when your daughter will be at the age where she will have to learn to navigate attention from boys both wanted and unwanted, learning about sex and how boys are at that age, and high school parties with drugs and drinking? She already feels like her mom won’t listen and doesn’t understand, so she won’t feel comfortable coming to her to talk about any of these issues as they arise. Your wife is literally pushing your kids away further away from her then any teenage behavior would on it own.

It also sounds like your wife is projecting some issues she has about her past on to your daughter. I’m not sure what kind of person was like when y’all met or in high school, but I think she might feel this way because she’s now looking at what she did as “bad” when she thinks of your daughter being this age. Trust me teenage girls and their moms already have a tough enough relationship any way, but the direction your wife is headed and her unwillingness to listen to anyone is going to make your daughter very resentful towards her mom.

Have you and your daughter considered talking to your wife together? I’m sorry your marriage is suffering because of this, but your doing the right thing by not giving into what she wants. Your children are more important in this scenario, and your daughter really needs to see she has at least one parent who understands and who she feels will listen to her. This will help her see she can still always talk to you. I’m sure your wife won’t like you two coming together on this, but I think if you guys do this conversation right and choose your words carefully, then it might help.

I also want to say your wife is correct about presenting a united front for your kids. However, it seems as though she expects you to share her opinions and anything you don’t agree with her on is you not working with her to put on that united front. It can be more harmful for you kids to witness a parenting relationship where one parent always has to bend to the other.

Have you and your daughter considered talking to your wife together? I’m sorry your marriage is suffering because of this, but your doing the right thing by not giving into what she wants. Your children are more important in this scenario, and your daughter really needs to see she has at least one parent who understands and who she feels will listen to her. This will help her see she can still always talk to you. I’m sure your wife won’t like you two coming together on this, but I think if you guys do this conversation right and choose your words carefully, then it might help.l

Is there anyone else your wife would listen to for advice? Her parents, a spiritual advisor, friends, etc. that you could convince to talk with her about this problem?

If the answer is "no one" then there may be a clinical/psychological issue going on here.

Otherwise, talk to those folks and as at least one other commenter put it, stage a group intervention.

Also, you may need to take this to the next level in terms of your relationship. Tell her that this is seriously harming your relationship and if she doesn't take this seriously, there will be consequences to your own relationship.

I know there have been a lot of get her to therapy ASAP posts, and people suggesting divorce as well, but perhaps a different kind of ultimatum might benefit you and your daughter while also coaxing her into it. Tell her you and your daughter will be attending counseling/therapy. She likes to be involved, so if she immediately feels excluded, she might feel more inclined to participate because she wants to know what’s being discussed rather than being TOLD she has to go. Even if she doesn’t go the first time, if you and your daughter can make some kind of head way in learning how to cope with her behavior while at the same time getting her curious enough to go, then you might be able to resolve it better that way.

If you love your wife and want to see her stable and be healthy, I think threatening divorce will just make her slightly more unhinged. But you absolutely need to be firm with her, even if that makes you “the bad guy”.

Pull your daughter aside one day when Mom isn’t around and tell her you’d like to go to therapy with her. Explain to her that it might ease the strain at home because you’re concerned about their disintegrating relationship. Explain to her that you understand that she’s being a little difficult, but encourage your daughter to participate in counseling because you’re worried about the fall out.

I’m rooting for you and the wellness of your family. Broken homes are no fun.

I'm not going to tell you that your wife is behaving erratically and seriously damaging her relationship with your daughter. Your post shows that you already know that, as does your daughter, her friends, their parents, and everyone who read your post.

I can tell you're not 'angry' with her, because you know she isn't being malicious or evil, she's just feeling like she's losing a very important part of her identity, and is trying desperately to cling on.

The purpose of her parenting is to be able one day to let go. It's to raise people who won't need her any more. That can be a tough pill to swallow. Gently remind her she's not going to stop being a mum; the job description is just changing. I'm sure she doesn't wipe your kids' butts or feed them any more either! The job has changed so much over the years, and now it's just in another phase.

What I don't think you can afford to do is try to push through without some help for her. She needs to learn to cope with this, and come up with ways she can be present and active for your kids, without being smothering. If she does not, she will push your daughter away for good. That would be such a sad outcome for the both of them.

If she's not open to speaking with someone else just yet, maybe try to open the conversation with her talking about the future a bit more, where does she think your daughter might go to college or get her first job? What kind of career might she want? Your daughter is becoming an independent adult in the next few years, and talking about that kind of stuff might help your wife to start thinking of her as one.

I'm not sure what you've already said to her, obviously, but it might be time to sit down your wife and your daughter together and make it abundantly clear that with her behaviour your wife is isolating her children and as a result she's going to push them away even further in the future - she's not giving them the chance to live and breathe.

Stand your ground. You're doing the good thing protecting your daughter. I can totally understand your wife' fears though. This must be a tough time for her. I get wanting her to go in therapy/counseling, i do. It's very difficult to get someone to look for help, when they themselves don't see they need it. Besides everything that's been said already: she needs to get her something to focus on/do. Something she can focus on and have it be her own thing.

Oh boy...get in front of this now or she'll want to be her roommate in college.

Seriously...while being a stay at home mom can be great in many ways...it can make you a horribly obsessed mom which is damaging. At this point she ABSOLUTELY needs to get a career or at least a part time job so she can focus her energy elsewhere.

I'd be on this before she irreparably destroys her relationship with your daughter because I guarantee your daughter will eventually move across the country to get away fro her.

Just curious, what kind of conversations have you had with your kids about your wife? Do they understand why she’s behaving this way? Maybe you can develop a plan with your oldest to make her feel more needed so she won’t be as... needy. As others have suggested, therapy would be the best option for mom but I know the type (my own mother) who will always be in denial and nothing you say will get through to them.

Also, does she have any friends? What do they think about her behavior?

When I first read this I was thinking that your wife is projecting her long lost childhood towards your daughter's sleepovers. She's making excuses, putting what she wanted to do in her sleepovers into her head, and expressing interest towards it through claiming these ideas occur into your daughter's sleepover .

From now on the only person who knows where your daughter is, who she’s with & what she’s doing is YOU.

You could add another trusted adult so your daughter has a back up plan but they should be crystal clear no info is to go to your wife.

As your wife refuses therapy, won’t get a job and is clearly going through something you need to protect your daughter.

This will do a few things:
* remove your wife’s ability to further negatively impact your daughter.
* keep your relationship with your daughter intact. She needs to know you 100% disagree with your wife and in no way condone her actions.
* allow your daughter to grow, learn things and most importantly maintain her friend group.

FYI if I’d been those parents and another parent came over demanding access I would have called the police.
One day someone is going to call the police or ban their child from interacting with yours and that is something the mother & daughter relationship may not recover from.
Plus your daughter will be angry at you for not protecting her.

Has anyone else suggested reading a bit on r/raisedbynarcissists? I'm not pointing any fingers. It could be a classic case lf empty nest syndrome but I'm also getting a lot of red flags. Therapy is definitely the best option one way or another!

I agree with the suggestions to sign up the whole family for therapy inviting the wife to go. I also agree with the comments about standing your ground and telling her that you and your kids ARE teaming up against her because her behavior is selfish and wrong. Tell her therapy is not an option and the whole family will go to talk about this issue and whatever other issues may arise. I hope you try this option and I hope it helps.

They exist and your daughter should know about them and not be ignorant, and know where not to go on the internet, so shutting this down so dramatically is a bad thing.

If your wife keeps harping on the dangers of the internet, your daughter is probably going to explore them more, rather than less.

In general- I was in school with girls who had parents like this, and for some, this overbearing problem lasted until college acceptance... then they went no contact with their mothers and proceeded to do all the things their mothers were worried about. In my opinion, it’s better to discuss the concerns with the daughter and give her independence to choose and learn so that when she is an adult, there is a healthy relationship. It’s not too late to change.

You are completely right in everything you’ve said. Your wife needs to recognise the changing relationship needs your kids have, otherwise she’ll lose them for hanging on too tight. Your wife wanting to supervise all the time will just make your daughter and her friends more secretive and will not stop them from talking about or looking up ‘inappropriate things’ (which are natural to wonder about at that age anyway).
I was 14 almost 10 years ago and the independence of sleepovers and going out with my friends were a pivotal part of growing up and gaining confidence in myself. As you are already doing - be there for pick up/drop off and support her.

Try having your daughter there with you both when you sit down and have these serious conversations. Maybe hearing how it’s making your daughter feel will help her to realize how abrasive she’s being??? I hope you find something that works for her and helps keep her mind occupied and happy.

would she try an exercise class at a local gym/ymca? yoga, zumba, something to get her our of the house for an hour or two while the kids are at school, but not feel like she isn’t there for them. it would give her a chance to meet some other women & maybe moms going through the same thing.

Is there anyone else that can talk to her? Maybe another parent. This is so sad because she desperately needs therapy and the kids will eventually want nothing to do with her. I feel like you should insist she get help. No matter how much she rants or cries I feel like you should stick to your guns. It's like she's having some sort of mental break or something. So sorry this is happening to you guys.

So now the biggest issue has to do with my wife wanting to go with our daughter on her sleepovers away. She insists that she just wants to keep an eye on the girls and she's worried about them looking up inappropriate things on the internet or discussing inappropriate things.

Does she csnsor the internet that way at home?

(I used to say things like "the kids know the internet better than their parents" but it's not that way anymore. Apparently if you're exposed to smartphones more than Windows or Mac you end up not really learning anything about computers.)

I'm so sorry for you and the kids. This isn't fair on you guys. She needs serious help, you need to some how get her to see the light or get yourself and children out of there. Could you get professional advice from somewhere? Someone to the house? Try telling her that she needs to form her own life outside of the kids. They aren't babies, they will both be teens soon. Before you know it your daughter will be off to college and uni and if your wife doesn't change she will never return home again and will have issues of her own. Your wife should have stepped back years ago this is just red flag unhealthy. I feel for your kids big time. It's so humiliating for them, will prob end up in some serious bullying too. If telling her that she will end up with no relationship and no contact with her kids if she doesn't change doesn't cause her to change and you can't push her to getting the serious professional assistance she needs then maybe you need to protect your kids away from her. It seems extreme but she is abusing those kids let's be honest here. To the point I actually think therapy would be beneficial for your daughter. If you have to take that last resort make sure you have evidence of her behaviour and get legal advice before you make a move. I fear she will use your resistance to her behaviour as a motive to leave herself and keep the kids with her. That's the worst possible outcome here and with no evidence of her crazy you'd struggle to prove it, only through statements from your children. Good luck OP, I'm so sorry you going through this mess I hope you find a way to make things better

I think therapy is probably the best option. I’m sorry you and your daughter are going through this. Is there any sort of embarrassment on her behalf? Especially after the debacle with the parents? Maybe that’s a dumb question but if there was any point of realization, I think it would be that. I think her reaction there would also determine how you proceed. If she’s oblivious, a demand to go to a therapist may be in order...

Everyone seems to be in agreement here that you are doing great by standing up for your kids and that your wife needs help. Continue to stay strong and stand up to her no matter how upset she is with you. Just maintain your composure during these interactions so she can see that you are serious and not "over-reacting" despite her potentially saying that you are. First I recommend that you get your kids (especially your daughter) into therapy for a few reasons...it will allow her to vent and gain skills to deal with the situation and it might get mom into therapy as well. My guess is that mom will follow her because she'll want to know what is going on...just like with the sleep overs. Second I recommend that you set up individual "dates" with each child on a regular basis outside of the home so you guys can talk freely about their lives and so they have a safe place to be themselves with a parent. Let them know that they can come to you with anything and that it will stay between you two. This includes school things, friend things, dating things, mom things, and medical/personal things (like needing birth control or just a visit to the gyno for general check ups as your daughter is at the age for that). Let your kids see that you are respecting their privacy and independence by allowing them to do things on their own, teaching them life skills (laundry, cooking, money management, ect.), and standing up for them when mom goes to far. That will help them and your relationship with them. I think that your wife feels lost because she has made her life about her children and is feeling out of control and not needed. She is losing her identity. She allowed any identity that she had with work, hobbies, friendships, marriage to be lost to motherhood. She needs to get a part-time job at minimum and involved in at least one hobby. For my bad advice: Could you maybe lead her to believe that you are starting to struggle financially without her working? Even if it is just for a few hours a week. Also she might need a puppy or a non-hardy plant...something that requires a lot of care.

If your wife won’t respond to seeking therapy, the rest of your family should. It sounds like the initial method that your kids use to deal with this is pull away. If you’re all speaking the same language to your wife/their mom, it will hopefully open her eyes. And if not, at least the three of you will be able to deal with it together until mom hits bottom and starts to climb out of it.

This sounds almost bordering on delusional. She may just be in very deep denial, but if I were you, I'd be looking into involuntary commitment laws in my area. Just so you know what to do in the event that things escalate.

What is left, is exactly what's happening. She's losing both daughters.

"Ugh, my mom is literally nuts. We were having a sleepover, and she tried to force her way into my friend's house, and my friend's parents had to physically block her and keep her out." Your daughter has said just that to more than one friend.

Continue to encourage and support your daughters' independence on sleepovers and many other activities.

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If your wife ignores you or gets histrionic, just ignore her.

I'm assuming you're not willing to divorce or separate over this. There's just nothing you can do if she refuses to go to therapy with you, and refuses to look at her own emotional hangups. You can't make another person change. You just have to look at the situation as it is, and figure out what you can do within that situation.

If divorce is off the table, maybe you move out of the bedroom, and just navigate your lives as companion parents - with you doing what you can to shield your daughters from their moms' mental instability.

Tell her she needs to get a job or at least a volunteer position. Your kids are old enough for your wife to go back to work now. She needs something else to focus on. Your kids are the only thing she has right now, the only thing where she feels in control and through which she gets her validation, and that is very unhealthy.
Tell her you won’t support her staying home anymore if she acts so crazy and that she needs to go back to work.

The reality of the situation is you need to stand up to this. Your daughter needs a hero. A lot of posters have talked about letting your kids know that this is not okay behavior and that you're on their side. That is the advice. Look, I know this is harsh- but marriages end. Relationships with your children never should. Would you rather lose your wife or both of your kids? That's what you're looking at. I haven't spoken to my mother in years and I never will. She's a psychopath. Her needs were more important than mine, there was never in my life unconditional love or understanding or TRUST.. Because what she's essentially doing is treating your teens as infants and giving them zero benefit of the doubt. She doesn't trust them. What did they do to deserve that? nothing.

You're also in an impossible situation because you're supporting a woman who has relied on you for many many years and if you separate where will she go, having no life, no friends, and no hobbies? Honestly, you have an enormous job right now, but you're the kind of guy who can do it.

The fact is, you should gang up on her. While I don't agree with being "against" her delusions because she's so deep in it and needs to wade into the proverbial pool, you need to provide your daughters as normal a life as possible and basically be a shield for them. You need to control this woman. You need to provide excuses and alibis for your kids so they can grow up if you're not willing to leave. If you ever split up fight tooth and nail for fulll custody and keep as much of this information as possible. Texts, messages, emails, anything. Your kids will immediately choose you, but fathers sadly always have to have an ironclad case.

We're not hearing about your relationship with your wife, just her relationship with the kids. That's a whole other issue, but if that's already on the back burner than focus completely on your kids and give them as much love, support, and breathing room as possible so that they can have one person they can count on. If you ignore her behavior and instead lead by example and continue to do so firmly, she'll throw a temper tantrum but what is she gonna do, leave? And go where? YOU ARE IN CONTROL HERE. She's the one who has nothing. I don't mean that in a negative way, but you have to realize you are 100% the breadwinner, sane parent, supporter, and she has nothing else to turn to. While that's part of her problem, it's also part of your power. Good luck.

"Your job as a parent is to help the children to become capable, independent adults. You are failing at this and you know it. Our children resent you, how can you not see this? They avoid you at all costs. You smothering them really only lends evidence to the fact that you're a bad parent. If you don't trust them with their own independence, it shows me that you don't trust your own parenting, and for the sake of our children's development and safety, I can't in good conscience trust you with them if you don't trust yourself."

Make an appointment for therapy.

"This stops now. We are going to therapy on (day) and if you don't go, then the children and I will be going to my parents' house and I'll see you in court if you want to argue about it. This discussion is over."

I’m sorry that you’re the one left trying keep everything together. Your doing the right thing by not indulging her on this-right now, you’re the last line of defense for your kids and your daughter is at an age where she recognizes her mother’s behavior is bizarre and completely inappropriate, if you weren’t to put your foot down with your wife, it would be so confusing for her. She’s at such a self-conscious age, where beginning the journey of defining herself and who she wants to be. Your wife is denying her autonomy and independence at a time when she’s testing boundaries and trying to figure out who she is as an individual-outside of her family and peer group. I cannot stress enough how much harm this could cause if it continues, it’s more than an embarrassment- it’s a major violation of your daughters boundaries and it could affect her well into her adult life. It sounds like wanting to ‘keep an eye on the kids’ is a lie your wife is telling herself, but your daughter is going to read it as her mother not trusting her to make the right decisions on her own. This confuses your daughter, as she’s given you guys no reason not to trust her, she might start to feel like she can’t trust herself either. When your wife projects unfounded concerns and anxieties into your daughter, your daughter starts to feel unsafe. These kinds of issues can make the transition to adult life a painful and terrifying journey when it should be exciting and liberating. All that will come of Helicopter parenting is that your daughter won’t feel like she’s able to come to you for help, when she’s in trouble or inevitably encounters more mature problems.

There may be no clean and easy way to do this, but it’s critical that your wife snaps out of this. I think the best thing you can do is be brutally honest (but not accusatory or condescending) with your wife, Advocate for your daughter. If she won’t go to therapy on her own, suggest marriage counseling...if you frame it as a way for you “two to get on the same page and work through how we want to parent our children now that they’re getting older”. Tell her it would give you both a setting to voice your concerns and point of view on the issue. If you go with her, it’ll seem less like defeat for her. This might be the best venue for complete honesty actually.

Other things you can do are: commit to weekly family traditions, say- always going out to the movies on a Sunday night (don’t do this the nights that your daughter will want to see friends)- do something that will actually be fun for everyone, keeping ‘family time’ traditions like this continue to fan the flame on this sense of closeness, commitment to one another, and stability. Get your wife a puppy or a kitten-it’s sounds silly, but I’m not kidding. We got a kitten around the time me and my brother were moving out of the house and my mom treats her like it’s her baby, it’s kind of freaky to watch actually but it makes her so happy to have a cute lil baby in the house. Make regular dates with your wife, learn a new skill, get your wife into a new hobby, or volunteer position or something. She just needs something to do, something to keep her occupied rather than parenting and thinking about the kids 24/7. You might be able to convince your daughter to have a regular date with her mother too, to go out shopping or hiking or whatever interests they share. Your wife will get more out of an hour or two of one on one time with her than she ever will joining in on sleepovers.

Also all the posters saying she needs a job/hobby are clueless. Your wife needs therapy and medication. She has some sever anxiety if not something else.

My wife has pretty bad anxiety and I have to reign her in at times. Luckily she realizes it but still at times I have to forcefully tell her that it’s just her anxiety being out of control and no our9 year old daughter will not get kidnapped walking across the street to the neighbors house. She was on meds but while they helped the anxiety they kinda numbed the world as she said. So she stopped them.

Encourage her to get involved in activities where she feels useful or wanted (e.g., PTA, volunteering, PT job, etc). She obviously misses taking care of the kids and is trying to fill the void by getting too involved in her daughter's social life.

Oh pta would be a bad choice for this mom. She needs things NOT related to the children to be involved in. How about being needed at the local homeless shelter. How about being a clown on a street corner at rush hour making people laugh. I swear to you. She needs any other activity besides ones that involves her children.

Yeah, exactly. Upthread someone suggested she volunteer as a coach for one of the kids’ sports, and I was just like “nooooooo...” when I read it.

While my parents never did that, I vividly remember the coaches I did have who had kids on my team* and they were just awful. OP’s wife would just become one of Those Coaches. Ugh

*ETA: Just to clarify, they weren’t automatically awful because they coached their own kid’s team; rather there was a subset of coaches with their kid on the team who so very clearl were only doing it to stay obsessively involved in said kid’s life. Plenty of cool coaches happen to have their own kid on the team, too!

Do you guys go to church regularly? Pastors, priests, and reverends often have a bit of counseling training, and of course your wife is more likely to view them as a trusted figure to go to for advice.

If not, I have completely different advice.

Your wife needs friends. And probably a new hobby. What does she like to do? Are the meet up groups in your area for that?

Friday is now date night. You two and your son go out to the movies, go do something fun, your son has a sleepover somewhere else and you two go on an actual date... anything.

Maybe have your kids approach their mum with a compromise that once a month they go with just her to do something a movie or whatever this arrangement should work well and may translate well when they move out of home to come around on a routeens basis .

This behaviour will drive them away and she stands to risk them shutting her out as an adult . Encourage her to make a list of hobbies and you will sit with her while she researchers some options to keep herself busy .. if she really likes that feeling of being needed she could volunteer? Old folks love help and company or even an animal shelter to channel her caring nature

Maybe... have your wife make dates with your daughter??? Like pretty much have them go out to the movies just the two of them once a week and then have your daughter have her sleepovers whenever she wants, maybe having a dedicated mother/daughter time will sort of ease her anxiety when she’s gone for sleepovers?? During the dates she could also talk about what they did at the sleepovers and if she had fun, that way she’ll feel included even if she wasn’t there. Let your daughter know that her mom feels left out and maybe having her mom talk to her in a casual convo about how her day went will also help a bit.

Your wife needs to understand that she’s not listening to what her daughter desires, you should ask her to put herself in your daughters shoes and maybe she’ll understand then?

She’s destroying the trust that she’s established and I think your wife would honestly benefit from even reading these comments.

It is not the daughter's job to mother her mother. It's the daughters "job" to go to school, make friends, make mistakes, and be a child. Dealing with intense mental issues from a parent always leads a child to want to fix it, they're always aware of it. So going to the movies with your crazy mom so you can have a mom free sleepover in the week would never lead to a free open and happy movie date. She needs to wake up.

Tell your wife to join the school's PTA. She'll be indirectly involved in the kid's lives and it'll keep her plenty busy! SAHM's tend to be the most helpful. Being involved in the school often gives you insider information on what's happening in areas most parents don't have access to so it might make her feel special.
I'm sorry she's spiraling. She can also try designating mother/daughter and mother/son days where they go out and do things together so she can get their undivided attention and not crash their free time with friends.

Not harping on you at all, but you understand that her joining the PTA will traumatize her as all of the other parents opinions on this will become painfully obvious very quickly. She won't be able to connect on parenting styles, She'll be overbearing in decisions. PTA is the worst possible move for her. She needs to get away from kids.

Do you think your daughter might write your wife a letter about how she feels? It seems like your wife is blaming everyone else and that allows her to continue to barge in, but maybe if your daughter herself said that this is hurting their relationship she might back off. It's not ideal, but really the ideal solution would be counseling and if she's adamantly against that then she probably wouldn't be open to hearing what a counselor had to say anyway.

All I want to say is please don’t listen to all of the bored, unedcuated airmchair psychologists on reddit debating which mental illness your wife has based on this small post. Seriously. The only person that could diagnose her would be a doctor, and with far more info than this.

I’m not saying there is nothing wrong with her. All I am saying is that arguing over which specific diagnosis you think she has is inappropriate, unhelpful and pretty arrogant when nobody here is trained for that. And even if they were, they’d need way more to go off of than this post. I encouraged them to see a doctor if they want that instead.

Your wife is batshit. Sorry bud. Like I dont think there is anything you can do but stand up for your daughter 100% tell her you have her back no matter what. Because if she doesnt know. Then you will lose her too.

Call and set up an appointment for her and "go for groceries" together. Drive to the appointment and when you get there tell her she has an appointment to go to. Offer a bargain at her completing 3 sessions and you backing her up on sleepovers.

Point blank she is in the wrong. She can’t continue the behavior from a rational standpoint, so it naturally begs the question as to why it’s occurring.

It could just be a bad reaction to kids naturally gaining more independence, but she seems more personally rooted in that. Is she normally this emotional over change in her life or adjustments to her routine, whether it’s regarding your children or otherwise? How do those general behaviors and thought processes compare to her actions and behaviors in this particular situation?

Perhaps it’s an identity crisis and feeling of losing control, but sometimes overbearing and irrational behavior is a result of past trauma. Perhaps she is afraid of your daughter repeating something she experienced or her friends when they were your daughters age experienced. Has she caught your daughter and her friends doing or saying things she hasn’t told you? There are honestly a lot of possibilities.

While she may not be receptive to the idea of going to counseling for what she perceives as you saying she’s being overbearing, intrusive, anxious, etc. she might be more inclined to go if it’s done under a positive pretense of helping her find new goals, purpose, etc. as the kids become more independent. I know you’ve said you’ve tried, but sometimes how you communicate in emotional situations makes a bigger impact than what’s said.

In the end, you can’t force someone to do something they don’t want to, but what is troublesome about these situations is the old saying that you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. She needs to be honest with you about her real hesitations because her reasons don’t make any real sense. And if she is adamant that those are her real reasons, she needs an outside perspective to tell her directly this is unhealthy for your children.

Make sleepover night your designated date night. Even if you have your son with you, it will give your wife something to look forward too. Treat her to a nice dinner at home and a movie or go out and do something with your son. Start projects you guys always said you wanted to do but never got around to. I’m not sure if just finding a job is the best advice since finding a job can be especially difficult if you haven’t had a documented job in over 10 years.

Stand your ground and don't let go. You owe it to your kids. Your need counseling, but as a couple or family. The issue is not really her fear, to be honest. It is your relationship.

My mother showed some similar traits at some point with my sister. Our father did not side with us kids and it left very bitter memories.

Counseling should be family or couple counseling, counseling for her alone won't help since she's in denial. However unpleasant, counseling will probably ultimately help you. You can let you daughter choose if she wants to be part of it or not, but it's obvious that you need it as much as your wife even though she's the one having issues.

Shes nuts, it happens. Years and years of normalcy and bang, psycho wife. My 49 cousin went to her nephews house after midnight and started praying in their front yard. Sad thing is her husband went along and now they're both kookoo. Family tried to commit her but doctor wouldn't. They were ok up until 2 weeks ago.