How about live with less. How about have their family support them rather than the govt. (I am only talking in terms of receiving more out than paid in - i think every penny paid in should be available).

What do you suggest we do given the fact that we are beyond broke ?

Is your MNL really receiving her own as well as her husbands surviver benefits? My mother could only chose between the two. She gave up her own SSI and only recieves surviver benefits. Are you going to take her in if she quits accepting benefits?

War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

Is anyone here receiving a govt. pension, social security or support payments from govt?

No, no and no.

Government employees used to have lower pay, but the best benefits and retirement. Now they often have the best pay too (for an average worker, white or blue collar). In the competition for workers, the government is winning. Thus they are taking many of the best out of the private sector. And we wonder why the private sector has problems...

Of course that generalization excludes many exceptional jobs in the private sector, which can lead to exaggerated wealth. Entertainment, sports and Wall St being examples where people can make extraordinary money (with the additional caveat that Wall St is often siphoning from government too).

Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

If the government ever wanted to give me some kind of handout or benefit, I would definitely take it. What I would never do is to become dependent on the government as long as I am in good health. My financial independence is one of the most important things to me.

Last edited by brandon; 01-02-2013 at 12:17 PM.

"christians, take your children out of the synagogues of satan. " - 19/M/Neckbeard

If the government ever wanted to give me some kind of handout or benefit, I would definitely take it. What I would never do is to become dependent on the government as long as I am in good health. My financial independence is one of the most important things to me.

I completely sympathize with posters like tod evans, and I agree with the sentiment. Right on! Don't deal with these creeps! Don't dirty yourself with their blood money! Myself, I also do not receive any direct payments like Socialist Security, welfare, or food stamps. But I do receive lots of indirect benefits and subsidies. The food I buy at grocery stores was subsidized by the thieves at the Department of Agriculture; I avail myself of roads that are funded by theft; I use electricity that comes from an aggression-based system; my tap water is likewise anything but free-market. Should we give these things up?

To quote Walter Block:

"Consistent refusal to deal with government thieves would involve one in committing suicide, since governments control all of the earth's surface. This is anathema to libertarianism, which holds life, not death, as the ideal."

Dr. Block has written on this issue -- should a libertarian take gov't money? -- on many occasions. Here is one of his expositions:

You are teaching your kids how to not work and be on welfare? Or am I misreading this?

Yes, pretty much. How to not pay into the system, legally.

As long as we continue to fund this crap, it will exist. I understand the need for working - bringing home more money than welfare and other programs pay, but people putting money into the bottomless pit of need are possibly a bigger problem than people taking money out.

Last edited by angelatc; 01-02-2013 at 12:40 PM.

.

"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won."

Folks, it's done. There isn't going to be any intentional, orderly, planned elimination of government programs or spending. They just had a knock-down fight to the finish about whether or not they would just reduce the rate of increase of spending! And they agreed not to! They are not EVER going to cut spending by any significant amount. They are going to run the bus off the cliff. Ron Paul tried. We tried. Other people tried. We didn't make it and now it is too late.

It still makes sense to support liberty as a political movement, but not because there is any hope of turning this around. Rather, the hope is in laying a foundation for what gets built up out of the ashes. And that includes supporting political leaders that will be around to fight for freedom during reconstruction.

Once the bus hits the bottom of the ravine, then we can start picking up the pieces.

But for now, you should do exactly what the elite insiders are doing - grabbing every remaining shred of wealth you can get your hands on and trying to position yourself to survive what is coming.

That's my advice, for whatever it is worth.

+1

"Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" —Kenny Rogers

"When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest." ~ anonymous

If there is one group of people I wouldn't mind receiving money at all is returning vets. Their lives are seriously in need of the help most of the time returning. They were willing to give their life (albiet for nothing) so we can give a few dollars.

"Get everything you can, break the system!" Heard this from the counterculture baby boomers as well in the '60's and '70's. Well they have been doing it damned near 50 years. Strange how the cycles keep repeating themselves. The younger generation think they have discovered a startling NEW concept because they has so little respect for their parents and grandparents that they never bothered to listen to what their parents and grandparents said about life and ideas of their youth and repeat exactly what they dispise in the older generations. Human's are funny.

War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

Folks, it's done. There isn't going to be any intentional, orderly, planned elimination of government programs or spending. They just had a knock-down fight to the finish about whether or not they would just reduce the rate of increase of spending! And they agreed not to! They are not EVER going to cut spending by any significant amount. They are going to run the bus off the cliff. Ron Paul tried. We tried. Other people tried. We didn't make it and now it is too late.

It still makes sense to support liberty as a political movement, but not because there is any hope of turning this around. Rather, the hope is in laying a foundation for what gets built up out of the ashes. And that includes supporting political leaders that will be around to fight for freedom during reconstruction.

Once the bus hits the bottom of the ravine, then we can start picking up the pieces.

But for now, you should do exactly what the elite insiders are doing - grabbing every remaining shred of wealth you can get your hands on and trying to position yourself to survive what is coming.

That's my advice, for whatever it is worth.

Thread winner right here ^

"Sorry, guys, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit.""What is this, a home owner's association? Why the need to try and control other people's behavior?"

With all of the trillions of dollars given to big banks, corporations, defense contractors and all that money wasted on overseas wars, don't you think that if we cut all that spending first it would spur most of the people dependent on government into a much more efficient and productive private sector?

The OP is playing the same tired old game as the establishment.. they pretend the only thing we can cut is granny's pension.

"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

If you seriously want to reduce government and balance the budget you HAVE to look at Grannie. And GI Joe. Three programs consume the vast majority of the budget- defense spending, Social Security, and Medicare/Medicaid. If you got rid of EVERYTHING else, you still cannot balance the budget (in the absence of higher taxes). They are also going to be the fastest growing portions on into the future unless changes are made.

People that use the logic "get everything you can so it will break the system" reminds me of someone trying to commit suicide because their life is so horrible and wake up horribly disfigured and in horrible pain the rest of their lives. They think they have it bad now only to realize just how really really worse it can get.....

War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

Not me, although I sure could use some reimbursement of the money I've been raped out of since I was 15 years old... now ... 60... you do the math.

I have not collected one dime for the 45 years I've paid into this jackleg system. I've been raped 45 years by the "lawbreakers" aka the "lawmakers" . I am the equivalent of a tenant farmer .. this government has used me, abused me... what more can I say? I don't believe I will collect one dime stolen from me, over the past 45 years.

" This is my last election ... After my election I have more flexibility,."

Not me, although I sure could use some reimbursement of the money I've been raped out of since I was 15 years old... now ... 60... you do the math.

I have not collected one dime for the 45 years I've paid into this jackleg system. I've been raped 45 years by the "lawbreakers" aka the "lawmakers" . I am the equivalent of a tenant farmer .. this government has used me, abused me... what more can I say? I don't believe I will collect one dime stolen from me, over the past 45 years.

Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

I took college grants and loans.
Never taken welfare or food stamps, unemployment etc. although I have definitely been broke enough to qualify. It wasn't too long ago I was eating beans, rice and oatmeal every day.
Meh, I wish I had taken welfare or food stamps. I'd have a lot more cash and savings right now. I'm selling my silver to make ends meet.
The ethical way means a life of suffering, while the unethical carelessly play.
And since I don't believe in an afterlife based on deeds, I am just hurting myself.
But I simply cannot find my lack of pride to get food stamps or welfare.
And it's not like I even judge people who use it, as my mom was on it for a few years.
I dunno, maybe it is the best way to get back to the city, as there is nothing for me where I am.

It seems like I never learn the lesson:
If you try to be the change you want to see in the world...
...you'll be left with nothing but a world laughing past you.

To read these threads, it is only ethical to pay into the system... and never to take anything out. The OP says it'd be against Ron's philosophy.

Right? So Ron will not collect any SS, or have Medicare benefits, and he definitely never took a Government paycheck on any level, and of course he never went to a school that benefits from Government dollars!

We're all paying into it on some level or another. While I don't agree with the "get all you can so that you can bankrupt the system" idea, I do believe that it's not hypocritical or the end of the world to use benefits you've paid into.

direct question - the US govt. is running a $1.6 trillion yearly deficit. should not all payouts be reduced across the board for everyone receiving govt. $$ to bring this to $0 ? and we haven't even started to get into the 50-70 trillion in unfunded liabilities promised...
to other posters who say "take what you can now" - how is the system crashing faster going to change things for the better? it's just more debt being pushed off that has to be paid eventually - either through inflation, a lower standard of living or higher taxes. you think govt. is going to get smaller? is there ANY time in history where a currency collapsed and the govt. didn't get bigger and make life worse for it's citizens? this is like eating sugar for years and the dentist telling you to stop or your teeth will rot and you'll need dentures - then they do -- and you find out dentures suck. it's not sunshine and roses coming.. it's misery.

Every welfare state/empire collapses in one way or another. This is a good thing. I don't see a problem with people using the system to expropriate money from the regime. Your argument could also be used against participating in the political process, you know.

btw, this situation just goes to show that Constitutionalism as we know it can't work long term. It's too destructive.

Originally Posted by Ron Paul

The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.

If you seriously want to reduce government and balance the budget you HAVE to look at Grannie. And GI Joe. Three programs consume the vast majority of the budget- defense spending, Social Security, and Medicare/Medicaid. If you got rid of EVERYTHING else, you still cannot balance the budget (in the absence of higher taxes). They are also going to be the fastest growing portions on into the future unless changes are made.

Truth. And where is that FEMA party you're hosting? I'd like to come.

Originally Posted by Ron Paul

The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.

If you seriously want to reduce government and balance the budget you HAVE to look at Grannie. And GI Joe. Three programs consume the vast majority of the budget- defense spending, Social Security, and Medicare/Medicaid. If you got rid of EVERYTHING else, you still cannot balance the budget (in the absence of higher taxes). They are also going to be the fastest growing portions on into the future unless changes are made.

Granny, GI Joe, and Goldman Sachs.
Why are we paying interest on money we should be printing ourselves anyway?
Why did we ever agree to pay interest?
Why should we pay interest on an unconstitutional agreement?
Why are we even worried about our "national debt"?

We are the breadbasket of the world. We have tons of resources and one of the best educated workforces. We aren't going to "die" or "collapse" if we default on something we never really wanted in the first place.

Why is my sorry 35 year old ass responsible for the idiotic choices of the generations before me? Why do I have to pay for the wars I never wanted but gleefully sold by the MIC and banks to us as a way to jump start the economy, amongst other things?

Fuck em.
Hang em and burn em, I say.
And let the rest beg to forgive us our debts.
Or chain em and hang em too.

If you seriously want to reduce government and balance the budget you HAVE to look at Grannie. And GI Joe. Three programs consume the vast majority of the budget- defense spending, Social Security, and Medicare/Medicaid. If you got rid of EVERYTHING else, you still cannot balance the budget (in the absence of higher taxes). They are also going to be the fastest growing portions on into the future unless changes are made.

Yup. And it will not happen.

For several generations now, government in this country has been primarily about handing out largess. The excuses for it - national security, helping the poor, supporting the elderly, protecting consumers, etc. - are almost inumerable, but the real government agenda is, and has been for over a century, taking wealth and freedom from any source they can get their hands into and giving it to whoever helps get them elected. Banks, unions, and government contractors of various types have been major recipients but certainly not the only ones. Major voting blocks, like Social Security beneficiaries and government workers, are at the trough too. It has become a way of life.

The fact is that the primary business of government is keeping the feeding trough full, and has been for generations. They really don't know how to do anything else. And so they won't. They will use every trick, every deceit, every cowardly scam, every manner of theft and fraud, to keep the trough full for as long as possible because THAT is all they know how to do. You might as well ask a lion to become a vegetarian as ask Congress to seriously cut spending. They will die first.

They are just about out of slop for the trough now. But they are not going to stop until every drop they can get their hands on has gone to the hogs. Then the hogs will turn on them and on each other.

You are not going to stop this from happening. But it is in the interest of keeping the light of liberty burning for our posterity that YOU survive the debacle that is coming. If you need to elbow in for some of the slop so you can survive the days following the end of the empire, by all means DO IT!

The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

Granny, GI Joe, and Goldman Sachs.
Why are we paying interest on money we should be printing ourselves anyway?
Why did we ever agree to pay interest?
Why should we pay interest on an unconstitutional agreement?
Why are we even worried about our "national debt"?

We are the breadbasket of the world. We have tons of resources and one of the best educated workforces. We aren't going to "die" or "collapse" if we default on something we never really wanted in the first place.

Why is my sorry 35 year old ass responsible for the idiotic choices of the generations before me? Why do I have to pay for the wars I never wanted but gleefully sold by the MIC and banks to us as a way to jump start the economy, amongst other things?

Fuck em.
Hang em and burn em, I say.
And let the rest beg to forgive us our debts.
Or chain em and hang em too.

+1

Guess what happens when the debt is declared null and void...millions of useless beueracrats will need to do real work instead of shuffling papers, government contractors will actually have to find work, instead of getting handouts, and maybe Jamie Diamond will have to learn a useful trade, like carpenrty.

RonPaulForums.com / LibertyForest.com is a grassroots web site with absolutely no official connection to Ron Paul or any election campaign. RonPaulForums.com / LibertyForest.com is privately owned and operated.