Member

They've written us off as whining children for so long that they have convinced themselves that whining children are all that remain.

Perhaps the saddest thing about this - this being every time the question of gaming journalism ethics comes up - is that they genuinely believe we're all angry conspiracy theorists because any attempt at walking in front of a mirror will ruin the fantasyland they currently live in.

Banned

All the defensive posturing and 'conspiracy theorist' labeling going on isn't exactly helping the game media's case here. It just shows the contempt they have for their audience, not to mention a serious lack of introspection. How about quelling people's concerns without talking down to them? If we can't have an open discussion about it, then what else are we to assume but that these concerns are in fact founded in reality?

Member

So... N'Gai Croal wants specific publicist names to be given now? Until then, it's only "media-on-media violence" to him. lol
Sounds good to me, let's hear some names already.

Also,

2m N'Gai Croal &#8207;@ncroal
@JasonLauritzen A media outlet was allegedly threatened with a libel lawsuit by another media outlet. In this case, ethics/PR = sideshow.

This guy is hilarious. Precisely "in this case," judging from all that's been unearthed over the past cple of days, "ethics/PR" is at the heart of what happened. Threats were made following perceived questioning of ethics, in particular regarding relationships between press and PR. Did he actually follow any of this?

Member

I do have a question for people here though: What would happen if all the major news outlets, IGN, GS, GI, Kotaku, etc all stopped 'playing ball' with press. I don't know what that would involve since they need to talk about something.

I would hope it would be like the endearing image of a group of actors checking the reviews of their performance of last nights stage play. Where they are judged upon their performance in a critical manner.

Ah who am I kidding like any publisher would let someone judge their product without prior approval. They'd just take away their ball and say they're not playing.

Then it made me sick and the cover-up just made it worse. That woman should have left it alone after the article was edited, everything beyond that was digging her grave deeper. It offended me as a practitioner and consumer of journalism. It wasn't enough to just get away with it, she wanted to do a victory lap, which, fuck you, seriously. You got someone fired (or asked to step down or what the hell ever) for something that did not demand that level of conflict.

Each time these ethical debates come up, I keep hoping this will be the time it sticks, this will be the time where journalists and PR people don't circle the wagons to keep their concept of "normal" going indefinitely. Maybe we can get a real conversation about why game criticism differs so much in terms of ethical quagmires from any other kind. Maybe we'll get people to cop to the fact that, hey, this is sort of fucked up, but this is the way it works and I doubt anyone capable of changing it is amenable to doing so. That's at least honest, you know?

It's not all game journalists that play the "I'm not touching you!" game with their hand an inch off your face and it's not all PR people that gleefully celebrate the murkiness of the waters that we all find ourselves in now, but stuff like that N'Gai Croal twitter conversation up above somehow manages to make me sick all over again. We can talk about the abstracts of journalism, and if you want to sweep those under the rug, at least no one's getting hurt. But now real people are suffering from this circus that's been set-up for pointing out how comical the whole thing is and that's when trying to just "move on and forget it" or joking about it until it's gone becomes wildly offensive.

Member

I do have a question for people here though: What would happen if all the major news outlets, IGN, GS, GI, Kotaku, etc all stopped 'playing ball' with press. I don't know what that would involve since they need to talk about something.

Like Jeff Green says, I don't think the point is to stop "playing ball." The point is to revise the rules. Sites want pre-release material and developer access. Publishers want to control that access. Fine. But game sites need to set some hard-and-fast (and clear) ground rules for what they will and won't do for that access.

Relationships between press and PR should be treated like other sensitive/taboo relationships in other fields (teachers and students, lawyers and jury members, etc).

I take it you haven't been following AAA gaming this generation. It seems like the console manufacturers, publishers, developers as well as their PR departments, don't think too highly of their audience either.

Member

Definitely not attempting to incite anything. Just saying that his motivations are very much contrary to the spirit of this thread no matter what kind of cachet he retains from his time as 'one of the good games journalists'.

Member

I'd love for someone to maintain a list of all the great replies and arguments in this thread by people who know what they're talking about. That way they won't get lost in the shuffle. I don't want to usurp these people's posts and use them as ammo in a shit-flinging contest, but simply keep them easily accessible since they're very much worth reading for anyone involved in the discussion.

Banned

I take it you haven't been following AAA gaming this generation. It seems like the console manufacturers, publishers, developers as well as their PR departments, don't think too highly of their audience either.

Member

Then it made me sick and the cover-up just made it worse. That woman should have left it alone after the article was edited, everything beyond that was digging her grave deeper. It offended me as a practitioner and consumer of journalism. It wasn't enough to just get away with it, she wanted to do a victory lap, which, fuck you, seriously. You got someone fired (or asked to step down or what the hell ever) for something that did not demand that level of conflict.

Each time these ethical debates come up, I keep hoping this will be the time it sticks, this will be the time where journalists and PR people don't circle the wagons to keep their concept of "normal" going indefinitely. Maybe we can get a real conversation about why game criticism differs so much in terms of ethical quagmires from any other kind. Maybe we'll get people to cop to the fact that, hey, this is sort of fucked up, but this is the way it works and I doubt anyone capable of changing it is amenable to doing so. That's at least honest, you know?

It's not all game journalists that play the "I'm not touching you!" game with their hand an inch off your face and it's not all PR people that gleefully celebrate the murkiness of the waters that we all find ourselves in now, but stuff like that N'Gai Croal twitter conversation up above somehow manages to make me sick all over again. We can talk about the abstracts of journalism, and if you want to sweep those under the rug, at least no one's getting hurt. But now real people are suffering from this circus that's been set-up for pointing out how comical the whole thing is and that's when trying to just "move on and forget it" or joking about it until it's gone becomes wildly offensive.

Member

Definitely not attempting to incite anything. Just saying that his motivations are very much contrary to the spirit of this thread no matter what kind of cachet he retains from his time as 'one of the good games journalists'.

Banned

I'm trying to catch up with the story, what exactly is N'Gai's role? I haven't really read anything he's written bit I've really enjoyed listening to him on various podcasts. Weird to think he'd treat this like a non-issue, though if he's a consultant these days his job may depend on it. I don't know if he has a GAF account but it'd be cool if he posted here.

I was just thinking it'd be really cool if Klepek or someone did an interview with the Bioware doctors about this, they might get a rare candid interview from two guys who presumably have nothing to lose at this point by openly talking about how they viewed their relationship with games media.

Member

In a perfect world, if gaming publications realized their collective power then publisher PR would be the ones having to play ball and not the other way around. That would mean transparency. If a member of one media outlet gets blacklisted or punished for not playing ball, then it should be reported on not only by the affected outlet but all outlets as a whole. There are ways for the gaming media to stand together and hold PR publicly accountable and/or make them realize they need the media to some extent.

Of course it would take sacrifices, which I don't think the industry's press are willing to make yet. It would require some basic journalism code of ethics. It would mean no more exclusive review agreements. It would require stuff like not accepting gifts greater than say $10. It would require calling out publishers if they pull a GTAIV and only let reviewers review a game under controlled conditions. It would require not publishing a review and waiting for a retail copy if that happens.

Again, I don't see this happening because gaming outlets stand to gain financially if they play ball and their competitors don't. Just know that you do so at the expense of damaging your credibility. Yes, even if everyone else is playing ball.

Member

They can laugh it off just as much as they want, but the way how they react just rubs me in the wrong way. Most posters here on GAF (or any non-GAF'er with an opinion on magazines/sites) are adults who like their hobby and we can have a rational discussion about it. I just know some PR guy will read this over and laugh while whispering "this is Neogaf dude", but there is no shame into admitting that several journalists have a very friendly relationship with publishers. Hell, I understand why. It's amazing if you get invited for some crazy press thing with all expenses paid. I mean, who wouldn't be tempted to take the trip? Okay, some posters would say no but that's entirely different topic.

But please, don't make us look like fools. We know how the world works; I scratch your back and you scratch mine. Why would the videogame industry be any different?

Reminds of a Dutch reviewer who gave Assassin's Creed a 99(!) and when the sequels appeared... Ubisoft gave him all kinds of goodies, including Ezio statues and other stuff. He would happily post it on Twitter. When someone called him out he was a bit peeved. It's your own damn fault.

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.

Member

People don't like having a mirror held up to their more questionable, self-glossed-over imperfections; it's natural for folks in such situations to speak -- in a kneejerk-like, if not plain old jerklike fashion -- in defence of themselves and to seek peer approval in a moment of self-reflection among other similars, where group-size seems to offer a promise of justification.

Thing is, despite the reflex reactions, the cause of that response, the reflection in the mirror or whatever, will linger and will be dwelled upon.

I actually have hope that the past few days will indeed impact positively on a number of the individuals involved on the press side. We just perhaps won't notice it, subtle and slow and stubborn as a personal perspective change can be. An issue raised can be an issue helped, without overnight paradigm shifts in attitudes, public confessionals and declarations of seeing the light. Let these humans handle the things they suddenly may have seen in the mirror as any human might be expected to do. In private and in phases and shit.

Keighley surrounded by doritos followed by gaming bloggers retweeting a hashtag for advertising to win a PS3 makes Florence of Eurogamer curious.

Florence writes an article saying how things are shady and some sound like straight up PR e.g. Wainright orgasms for everything Squenix.

Eurogamer/Wainwright send libel threats to Eurogamer, at which the article was edited to remove mentioning of Wainright.

Wainwright responds in twitter "Apology accepted" and something in the vain of applying her law classes to use.

Florence either steps down or is forced to resign to avoid any libel threat.

Both sides deny any threat or are not talking about it directly, but twitter posts hint that such threat existed. Florence is not confirming or denying whether he was fired or he stepped down.

"GAF and 4chan combine forces to see this standalone complex issue" alongside digital protest from Penny Arcade and more, showing what happened.

Wainwright's profile shows she is a freelancer for Square Enix. She admitted it and denied doing any reviews for Square Enix or shilling (she is wrong. She reviewed Deus Ex, Tomb Raider and did countless previews).

All this fiasco is too much for her and she privatize her twitter account. Next thing you know, she starts deleting tweets, videos and articles, and edits her profile to remove any mention of Square Enix freelancing.

Member

No, that's just overgeneralization. By your logic, it is impossible to write a negative review/article if the PR gifts/food/whatever was excellent? Because, we've had plenty negatieve reviews about bad games, even if the PR was good. I remember getting a very cool Brink PR package, but that game was awful. Thus it received an awful review. PR gift was cool, but that's it.