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What if your client's thyroid issue has NOTHING to do with their actual thyroid? Here you are recommending thyroid glandulars, thyroid complexes, thyroid nutrients and you are just wasting their time and money. Even worse...you may be getting them ZERO RESULTS.

When it comes to Hashimoto's and Hypothyroid, you need to look beyond the thyroid. Whitney Morgan, L.Ac, likes to call this the "thyroid landscape."

This means moving beyond the thyroid and looking at the factors that may be preventing the thyroid from working optimal and most of these things may have nothing to do with the thyroid itself.

Whitney is a licensed acupuncturist and diplomate of Oriental Medicine. She is the owner of SagePoint Acupuncture & Wellness LLC in addition to being on staff at Tucson Acupuncture Co-op. Whitney has extensive experience as a functional nutritionist and serves as a clinical adviser for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, Inc. Whitney. Whitney has obtained additional certifications as a Primal Health Coach and Gluten Practitioner. Whitney lives in Tucson Arizona with her husband and two dogs.

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Kendra Perry: Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome to another awesome, unbelievably amazing episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry. And I am so happy to be joined by my co-host, Christine Hansen, who looks lovely, has amazing lipstick on as always, and almost didn't make it today, so I feel extra lucky.

Christine Hanse: See, and I still had time to put on my lipstick. It's like, there's priorities in life, you know?

Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I mean, you look fantastic as always, Christine. And I'm so happy to be here with you.

Christine Hanse: Okay, darling. I'm never getting tired of this. I will never say, "Please stop."

Kendra Perry: We like to flatter each other. And guys, as always, we have a really great episode lined up for you today. We're going to be talking about the thyroid. And when I was, "Okay. We need to talk about the thyroid. Who should we get on?" I instantly thought about Whitney Morgan, who is an old colleague of mine. I used to work with Whitney when I worked for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, and she is one smart cookie. And she is on with us today. And just to give you guys a little bit more info on Whitney ... and I always slur or stumble over my words when I read people's bios, so bear with me, 'cause I get really nervous about it for some reason.

Kendra Perry: So Whitney is a licensed Acupuncturist and Diplomat of Oriental medicine. She is the owner of Sage Point Acupuncture and Wellness, LLC, in addition to being on staff at Tuscan Acupuncture Co-op. I'm doing good so far. Whitney has extensive experience as a Functional Nutritionist and serves as a Clinical Advisor for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition Incorporated. She has obtained additional certifications as a Primal Health Coach and Gluten Practitioner. She lives in Arizona with her husband and her two dogs. Welcome, Whitney. Thank you so much for being here.

Kendra Perry: Whitney, I'd love to know, 'cause I really find you to be such an expert on the thyroid. I've learned a lot from you, just advising with you on tests with Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, and we used to also do webinars together and talk about test results. Why do you like to focus on the thyroid, and how did you become such an expert in it? I'd love to know that.

Whitney Morgan: Well, it's interesting, because as you know, when you worked for FDN, there was always projects in the works, right? Different webinars to be produced. And I got tapped. Reed said, "Hey, do you want to do a webinar on thyroid?" And you know, I'd been a clinical advisor for a while, and I was comfortable with thyroid labs, and I said, "Sure!" But then, preparing the webinar, actually I realized how much I didn't know. So it really was going through that process of doing lots of research, and pulling all of these various threads together that I think improved my expertise. I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert on the thyroid, but I'm on my way. And so, you know, it's all about learning, right? You just got to keep learning. So I was really interested in it, and just kind of dived in. And so, here we are.

Christine Hanse: Well, I can say you definitely came over across as a expert to me, because I'd looked at that webinar, and I was just like, "Oh my god, this is saving my life," because I promise every single client I work with has a thyroid issue. And maybe what's most important, every single client tells me that they've had looked into their thyroid, and they've been told that everything is okay.

Christine Hanse: That, and that every practitioner out there who's listening has had the same scenario. And if you don't know better, you will just take that for granted. Right? So okay, they had a test done, their practitioner said, "Everything's okay, so let's not look at that." Why might that not be the best idea?

Whitney Morgan: Well, you know, I think it's a common occurrence like you said, and it's not just the thyroid. It happens with your basic annual blood work too. It's like, "Oh, I had all these tests run. I do it every year, and everything's fine." But you know, in the functional world, we don't wait for diagnosis or pathology. We're looking for patterns before things really go crazy, before the wheels fall off the bus. But most people who come to see practitioners like us, they've already had chronic issues for so long, and unfortunately when they do get their thyroid checked, traditional docs aren't running all the markers. They're just maybe doing TSH or maybe T4, T3 if you're lucky, but that's about it.

Kendra Perry: Right. And what is the comprehensive thyroid panel? What should that actually look like? 'Cause yeah, I see it all the time. People come with their TSH and that's all they got, and you're kind of like, "Well, I mean, that's a small piece of a bigger puzzle."

Whitney Morgan: Right. Right. Well, I think it's important to look at TSH and free T4, free T3. Those are some primary markers that most people are comfortable with. But then reverse T3 is super important, as is thyroid-binding globulin and of course the antibodies are really important. I look at thyroid globulin too, but that's more of a tumor marker. But still, every once in a while, I see that it's really elevated and that's an issue to refer out for follow-up. So really, I think you need all of those things in a complete thyroid panel, at least in the initial test. And then once you get a sense of the lay of the land, then maybe your follow-up testing can be a little more strategic. But it's actually so cheap, I tend to run a complete panel every single time.

Christine Hanse: Yeah, me too. So maybe explain to us why it's so important. Like, why is TSH and T4 not enough?

Whitney Morgan: Okay. Well, you know, TSH is really just the signal, right? So it comes from the pituitary and it says, "Hey, thyroid gland, there's not enough hormones circulating. Make more." It's just the signal. So it is a measurement of that feedback loop. So what's going on in the body that signaling the hypothalamus and the pituitary to determine whether or not we need more or less thyroid hormone production. So it's an important marker, but it does change pretty ... it has a wide range. Let's just put it that way. And it can fluctuate throughout the day, so it really depends on when you get your thyroid tested, are you testing it at the same time every day? So there are certain nuances to relying on TSH. But that's really a marker to evaluate a signal. That's really it. And then you have free T4 and free T3. Of course, the majority of what the thyroid produces is T4, and then it's converted into T3, which is the active form of the hormone that docks into all the cell receptors and is that metabolic driver.

Whitney Morgan: But there's also reverse T3. So reverse T3 is really important, because if you think of free T3 as the brakes, let's rev up that metabolism, get things going. I mean, I'm sorry, it's the gas. Reverse T3's the brakes. So these two aspects of the thyroid hormone compete with each other at the cell receptor site. So someone could have plenty of free T3 and look normal on paper, but if they have more reverse T3 than they should, they can still be showing up as having real hypothyroid symptoms and be sub-clinically hypothyroid, even though their free T3 looks normal.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. And so how often do you see thyroid issues in your patients? Like is this something that you come across quite frequently?

Whitney Morgan: Yes. In fact, I think once in a blue moon, I see a complete panel that looks textbook normal from a functional standpoint. And that's important, because these standard reference ranges for the various things we're measuring, they're pretty wide. And so when a traditional doc's looking at them, they say, "Oh. You're fine." But looking through functional, the ones of a functional reference range, we can see this kind of sub-clinical stuff show up much earlier, and start addressing it and intervening.

Christine Hanse: Yeah. It's like when I talk to my clients, I just tell them, "People don't go and get their thyroid tested when they feel super duper cool. They go when they have issues." So it's just a statistic. It's a statistic from extreme cases, so it's extreme ranges. And just because it means that you're not an emergency, doesn't mean that it's not impacting your lifestyle. And I think that's a little bit where people get lost, because they're not an emergency, but it is impacting their lifestyle which is not the territory of our more emergency-orientated doctors. Which is fine, but I mean, that's where Functional Diagnostics is where they find their place, basically.

Whitney Morgan: Yeah. And what I see quite frequently is someone might have free T3 levels that look pretty solid, and might even be at the low end of the functional range, but when you look at their ratio of reverse T3 to free T3, they're so out of balance that they're not getting the full benefit of the free T3 hormone that's circulating. Or, what I also see, is thyroid-binding globulin being too low or too high, and that's like the transporter. It's the bus that carries the thyroid hormone to its destinations for conversion or to the destination cell. The cell receptors. And if there's not enough buses moving or if there's too many buses moving, things can also get out of whack, so that's an important marker to look at. How is hormone being transported through the body? Is that happening in an efficient way?

Kendra Perry: And so I want to talk a little bit about how things kind of go wrong with the thyroid. 'Cause in the thyroid course that you created for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition that both me and Christine have done, you talk about, I think you call it the thyroid landscape or the thyroid disorder landscape. And some of the things that actually play into the thyroid going out of whack that may actually not really have anything to do with the thyroid. Can you discuss some of those?

Whitney Morgan: Sure. Well, the first thing that comes to mind ... well, the first two things that come to mind, the liver and the gut. The liver produces the binding globulin that binds to the T4 and T3 for transport, and it's the primary site of conversion, both from T4 to T3, and from T4 to reverse T3. So if there's something going on in the liver, if there's a lot of liver congestion, if there's some detox issues, just overburden issues, anything that we consider sub-par function, then that can really throw thyroid function off. And then the gut is a big contributor too, because we need healthy gut flora to really produce adequate amounts of T3. So if you've got parasites or overgrowth of opportunistic bacteria, or you've got gut damage, leaky gut, things like that, that can impact thyroid function. And then of course, the circulatory system is a contributor, because that's your highway. That's your transportation system.

Whitney Morgan: And then of course the hypothalamus. Sometimes there can be things that are going wrong on the front end either with the hypothalamus or with the pituitary, so we call that maybe a tertiary or primary, secondary, or tertiary hypothyroidism. So sometimes you can have signaling malfunctions that happen. That's the brain. And so lots of things can affect the hypothalamus, of course, and the pituitary subsequently. So you think of anything that stresses out the adrenal system. That HPA axis. That can really impact how effectively the hypothalamus and the pituitary signal the thyroid gland.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, and when you think about it that way, it kind of seems like, "Well, no wonder so many people are having thyroid disorders," 'cause who's not getting exposing to toxins? Who doesn't have gut issues? We all run gut panels, all three of us do.

Kendra Perry: We're always seeing infections. We're always seeing parasites. We're always seeing opportunistic bacteria. And you know, I think when you're a practitioner and you're working with someone who has thyroid disorder, you do have to look at the bigger picture. Because some people, they know they have a thyroid problem, so they're like, "What's wrong with my thyroid? What's wrong with my thyroid?" But you need to kind of take off the tunnel vision and look at the things that could be causing it, 'cause it sounds like, yeah, it could have nothing to actually do with the actual thyroid.

Whitney Morgan: Oh, absolutely. It's just that that's a common test that's run in the traditional world, whereas it's pretty rare for a traditional doc to be assessing the HPA axis or looking at the gut or the liver the way that we do. So I think chronic stress is just such an issue in our modern world, and when that hypothalamus, pituitary adrenal system is out of whack, that will inhibit the signal from the pituitary to the thyroid gland. So it will inhibit that TSH, and it will bring down T4 production. If you have too much cortisol circulating, it will inhibit the conversion of T4 to T3. Also, it drives up the production of reverse T3, because the body's trying to slow itself down, keep you safe, right? So it increases the competitiveness of reverse T3 to free T3, the cell receptor site. And then it also changes the cell receptor sensitivity to T3. So it's just this cascade of dysfunction that can occur, but it's origin might be in the adrenal system, and the thyroid is where maybe it first shows up in terms of any sort of traditional tests that are run.

Christine Hanse: Right. Agreed. So obviously sometimes it can also be a physiological problem. So I have actually lots of clients who I then send to an endocrinologist, or for example, just say, "Look, you might really need to look into this a little bit more if I can't help enough." And a lot of them have then come back and they've been diagnosed with ... what do you call it in English? Goiters? No. Cold knots, we call it in-

Christine Hanse: Yes. Exactly. So a lot of them come back with that, and they're super confused. So what would you give them as an advice? Also, as a practitioner, you're kind of, I think it's not in all of our [inaudible 00:16:33], especially if you're a general, generic, like a health coach or a nutrition coach. What would you recommend people to tell their clients or patients?

Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Well, you know, that's a good point, because what you're bringing up, like nodules or enlargement at the gland itself, those are kind of critical things you got to deal with. But that's what I call a branch issue. It's not a root issue. So that's what's showing up, and yeah, we need to intervene, but of course, most FDN practitioners are not medical doctors. So that's something where you got to tread lightly, because traditional medicine has its own way to intervene with that kind of a situation. But I think that the key is to focus on, "Okay, while your doctor is dealing with the branch, let's deal with the root." So we need to look at nutritional factors. Are there chronic nutrient deficiencies due to, I don't know, you've been on birth control pills for 20 years. That's an issue. Do you have some mineral deficiencies? What's your iodine status? How is your liver detoxifying? Do you have a lot of gut infections that are shutting down detoxification? Do you have heavy metal toxicity?

Whitney Morgan: I mean, there's so many things that underlie all of these root issues. So even things like, hey, if someone comes back and they say, "Oh, my doctor said my TPO antibodies are 400 and something, and so my doc says we're just going to watch that." Right?

Whitney Morgan: But we know, "Okay, that means that this is an autoimmune issue where your immune system is attacking your thyroid gland. There's tissue destruction. We need to find out what the trigger is, so we're going to be running some ... we're going to look at the gut, we're going to look at food sensitivity issues. There's something that's the trigger." Right? Usually it's gluten. But it could be heavy metals. It could be gut infections. But that's where we can get a lot of work done that then those branches get healthier, because you're dealing with the soil and the roots, and the branches kind of start taking care of themselves, if that makes sense.

Whitney Morgan: It's a Chinese medicine philosophy. That's the whole basis of Chinese medicine, is root and branch. In fact, if you read anything about Chinese medicine, it's very poetic and esoteric, but they talk about the doctor being like a gardener. Of course, the branches might need a little pruning here and there, and you have to address things, but if you're not putting the majority of the attention in the soil and the roots, the tree is never going to be healthy.

Christine Hanse: Kendra, I see both of our eyes and our brains going like, "I really want to learn this [inaudible 00:19:44]."

Kendra Perry: I know. I know. There just needs to be more hours in the day to take all the courses and learn everything I feel like I need to learn.

Christine Hanse: Yeah. It's like I've been attracted to that topic for so long, and it's just like, "Ugh." Yeah. [crosstalk 00:20:08]

Kendra Perry: It's very cool. And I know you know a lot about gluten sensitivity, and sort of that non-celiac gluten issue, and can you talk about how gluten can be a trigger? 'Cause I know many people who have Hashimoto's, so they have hypothyroid, and they continue to eat gluten, and I'm always like, "That's a mistake." And why would that be a mistake?

Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Yeah, it is a mistake. Okay. So celiac disease is kind of a narrow, more limited form of gluten sensitivity. It's way on one end of the spectrum, right? And maybe you're looking at one percent of the population. But up to 20 or 30 percent of the population, we have non-celiac gluten sensitivity. So they don't have that gut autoimmune process going on, but there's tomato, tomahto. It really doesn't matter, because it's still both set you up for the same kinds of autoimmune disorders down the road. So what we do know, what the research is showing, is that almost half of people with gluten sensitivity of any form will manifest some type of thyroid dysfunction. And just one exposure to gluten can set off an inflammatory cascade that can last for several weeks to several months. So there's no such thing as eating a little bit of gluten, right?

Whitney Morgan: So a few things to understand about gluten. It sets the stage for gut permeability in everyone. It doesn't matter if you're sensitive to gluten or not. Gluten creates a more permeable gut because it increases zonulin production. And zonulin is that enzyme that kind of hyper-regulates the tight junctions when it's in the gut in increased amounts. Those tight junctions will kind of open up a lot. So then you get leaky gut, and you get things moving through the gut that shouldn't, like partially digested food proteins. So you've got these big food antigens going into the gut, or viruses, or metals. All kinds of stuff, right? So like all grains, also gluten has a toxic lectin in it. And so even beside the zonulin issue, all grains have these lectins that create more permeability in the gut as well.

Whitney Morgan: So in this sense, gluten is kind of like the mob boss of the grains. It's like the one that does the most damage, and it can be an exacerbating factor in all thyroid autoimmunity. In addition to that, the gluten protein, the structure of it is really big and complex and kind of clunky, and it can look a lot like other things. One thing is the thyroid. Particularly when we're talking about wheat germ agglutinin, which is the lectin part of the thyroid gland. You kind of get this double whammy, because the wheat germ agglutinin, if it gets through the gut, will actually ... it's really sticky, and it can stick to the thyroid gland. And then you get the immune system trying to destroy the wheat germ agglutinin, and in the process, it does a lot of tissue damage. But then there's also this mimicry, where gluten can start looking a lot like thyroid tissue as well, so then you have the immune system going, "Oh. I'm going to make antibodies not only to gluten, but to this thyroid thing here, because that looks way too much like gluten for me to be comfortable." Right?

Whitney Morgan: And there's almost 100 percent correlation, almost, between Hashimoto's and gluten sensitivity. And to make matters worse, most people who come to us will say, "Oh, I have hypothyroidism." Rarely do I hear, "I have Hashimoto's."

Whitney Morgan: But almost everyone's diagnosed with hypothyroidism. Right? But most hypothyroid cases are undiagnosed Hashimoto's cases. They just haven't been properly assessed. So when you follow that logic, it's like okay, if you have hypothyroidism, you probably have Hashimoto's. If you have Hashimoto's, you probably are gluten sensitive. No one should be eating gluten if they've got a thyroid issue. Nobody.

Christine Hanse: I think nobody here has any [inaudible 00:24:45] condition [inaudible 00:24:51]. All the clients I've had, I only had one single client who didn't show positive to food sensitivity when it came to gluten. All the others had a big red bar.

Whitney Morgan: Right. Well, and then when you jump down that rabbit hole, then there's that additional thing of, "Well, there's all of these other foods that aren't gluten, but they cross-react with gluten." So it's not just the gluten you might have to get rid of. It's the dairy, and the corn, and the yeast, and the rice, 'cause those things look too much like gluten to the immune system.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I know there's a test that ... is it the Cyrex Array 4 that tests for cross-reactive gluten sensitivity?

Whitney Morgan: Yeah, and up until recently, I pretty much used exclusively Cyrex. So the Array 3 test for gluten sensitivity, and then the Array 4 looks at all of these cross-reactive proteins. And it's an IgG, IgA looking at the whole food protein. Now I've stopped using the Cyrex because now we have the Wheat Zoomers. We have all these Zoomer tests from Vibrant Wellness. The Wheat Zoomer is great. It's cheaper than the Cyrex Array 3, and inside the Wheat Zoomer, you have an intestinal permeability panel as well. So you get a bigger bank for your buck. You can also add on the celiac genes for an additional 99 bucks if you want.

Whitney Morgan: Yeah. They also have a Dairy Zoomer and a Corn Zoomer and a Lectin Zoomer, so like the Wheat Zoomer, these other Zoomers are looking at these foods at the peptide level, breaking them apart into all their constituent parts, so they get a more granular view of how sensitive someone might be to the little itty bitty parts of the food. Whereas IgG and IgA is just looking at kind of like the whole big bad protein. So I will run Wheat Zoomer, Dairy Zoomer, Corn Zoomer, Lectin Zoomer, and then I will add to that their 96 food panel. And that's just the basic IgG, IgA to 96 foods. If I run all of those, the only thing I'm not testing that cross-reacts with gluten, is millet. It's the only thing.

Whitney Morgan: Yeah. And most people don't. And it's not a common ingredient in gluten-free foods anyway. But a word of warning, because I had a very interesting experience recently where I usually run an Array 3, at least one Array 3 a year, and two Array 4s on myself a year just to make sure that everything is kosher, 'cause I have celiac disease. I've never come up positive with any cross-reactivities. So I live a primal lifestyle pretty much, but I'll have a little bit of raw, organic dairy. Small amounts. And then maybe on a Sunday or so, I'll go way off the reservation, get crazy, and have some corn chips maybe.

Whitney Morgan: But I figured, "Hey, I don't have cross-reactivities. I'm cool." So then I ran all these Zoomers on myself. Not only were my gluten antibodies elevated, but I was super reactive to dairy, super reactive to corn.

Whitney Morgan: But the interesting thing is the 96 food panel that also has dairy and corn on it, I came up non-reactive on the IgG, IgA. So it just really ... it was a big "Ah ha" for me. It just goes to show you that IgG, IgA is good, but it's not enough for some people, because my level of sensitivity is such that I really need to be looking at things at the level of the peptide in order for it to show up. So now I'm a big Vibrant Wellness fan.

Kendra Perry: That's very cool. I actually have the Cyrex Array 4. I've been trying to run it from Canada with zero success. I just can't make it happen. I've had the run-around. [crosstalk 00:29:24] I've tried multiple blood draw places, and they're like, it's not ... they don't run it fast enough or something, so I'm like, "Okay." Now I'm like, "Maybe I should look into the Zoomer." But I think that's really interesting, what you say about the IgG, 'cause I see so many people ... like one of the main tests people bring to me when they start working with me is the food sensitivity test, and it's like a Great Plains lab, or an MRT or something. I'm not dissing these companies, but sometimes stuff doesn't come up. And they're like, "Oh, well, gluten didn't come up, so I'm good," and I'm like, "Mm, I don't know. You probably aren't."

Christine Hanse: Let's just try to cut it out, and usually they see the reaction so quick, but yeah, it's super hard. I'm in Europe, and so getting labs over here is really difficult, especially from independent. So the one that I usually run is the ZRT, but they started to cut out RT3. Like, they're not testing it anywhere. So I don't know why. They have a disclaimer on their website. I forgot what they said, 'cause I was just annoyed and didn't read it. But it's been just a couple of months that they took that out of their panel, so I'm like, "Oh."

Christine Hanse: I know. So it's ... I don't know what's happening there. But yeah, I need to find a new company that I can use for my clients up ahead. So not always easy.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. I know. If you're in the US, you're good, but you're in like Canada and Europe, it's like sometimes it can be ... some things are really easy to do, but yeah, anything that requires a blood draw seems to be like pulling teeth over here.

Whitney Morgan: Yeah, and you know, what I see too is like you were saying, Kendra, people come to you with food panels. I see exclusive IgG panels. Like they're just getting the finger stick, or they're just, you know, Great Plains or whatever. And that's just half of what you need to be looking at anyway. Right? So they'll come up totally normal. "Oh, wheat's normal." Yeah, but that doesn't mean you're not having an IgA response to it. Right?

Whitney Morgan: And about the MRT too, I stopped using it because ... well, for two reasons. One, you can't tell the difference between what's just an inflammatory reaction, what's an IgG or IgA reaction. Right? You can't make that distinction. And also, I've had two people who are celiac come up totally unreactive to wheat. My daughter, who's not celiac gluten sensitive, come up with unreactive to wheat. And then, I've had situations where I've had clients who absolutely know. It's like, "Hey, if I eat avocado, my throat starts to close up," and it comes up green. So it's just like [crosstalk 00:32:04]

Kendra Perry: So Whitney, if I am a ... say I'm a health coach, and I have a client who has hypothyroid, what would be like the top three things I should be recommending to this person besides ... I think we've made a good point for getting gluten out at this point, so it's definitely one of them.

Whitney Morgan: Well, yeah. I guess ... okay, so it depends. If your client is willing to do some additional testing and has some money to throw at that, then I'd want to know ... okay, I'd run a GI map to see what the gut infections are looking like. I would get a sense of metal toxicity, mineral status, whether that's an HTMA or the Quicksilver test that I like a lot as well. And I would also be looking at a micro-nutrient panel. So I want to say, "Okay, what are the nutrient deficiencies, and are there these other toxins?" You know, whether they're pathogens, endotoxins, or metals, what else is going on? It also could be that you might have to dig even deeper than that, and be looking at viruses and microtoxins. You just don't know.

Whitney Morgan: And then there are just the basic things that we know and we do every day, which is you need to remove the things from your life that are stressing out your HPA axis, right? You need to modulate that system, strengthen that system, and so all those lifestyle changes that go into that. So I would do a batch of additional testing. We always need to be looking at that root system, right?

Whitney Morgan: But let's say you've got a client who says, "I don't have any money. I can't do any of that. All I know is that I have hypothyroidism and I feel like crap." Okay. Well, I would definitely assume it's Hashimoto's. I would definitely assume that this person has a gluten sensitivity. I would put them on the AIP diet. They would have to eliminate all potentially cross-reactive foods, which if you're on the AIP, that does that, takes care of that. And they would be on glutathione. I'd check their vitamin D levels. They would be on vitamin D if necessary. Glutathione. Really high-dose fish oil. I'd have them on immune globulins, like The Microbiome now has the bovine serum immune globulins.

Whitney Morgan: They're really good. So I would definitely do that, and then some Boswellia, some crocumin to kind of tamper down that inflammatory response. I might give them 100 micrograms of selenium, or 200 if their antibodies are elevated. So you kind of put everything together that's going to address the fundamental stuff in supporting the immune system before you even think about, "Well, am I going to do anything to encourage more T4 production?" Right?

Whitney Morgan: But let's say you do. You get all that immune system support in place, and they make all those dietary changes. I would make sure they've got all the nutrients in their diet that we know contribute to adequate thyroid function, and then I would just maybe put them on a little Thyro-Gold, depending on what their numbers look like. Maybe a little Ashwagandha. Definitely some liver organ extract, 'cause it's super, super nutritious. These are just basic, fundamental things. You know? And that happens a lot. Some people, particularly if you're looking at throwing a bunch of money towards tests, and then have me throw a bunch of money at supplements, some people will just say, "I'll do whatever you tell me to do. I just need to put my money towards the supplements and the food." Right? So then I just assume the worst. I mean, really. And I'll even prophylactically treat people for parasites and bacterial overgrowth and yeast.

Whitney Morgan: Because I mean, that's what we used to do anyway. I remember a decade ago when it was just like the known thing that two or three times a year, you do a parasite cleanse. You just do that, right? So why not just do that? It's not going to hurt them, as long as you support detoxification. You support the liver. You make sure those pathways of elimination are open, and urine and stool and all of that. You do all of that, then I just prophylactically treat everything I can except for metals. I don't detox metals unless I've got hard data. That's just not cool.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, that's a dangerous thing if you're not in the right state to do it.

Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. But, having said that, I will frequently put someone on the PushCatch kit from Quicksilver, and that will detox the little metals. It will bind up some metals and other things without actually actively going after stored metals. Right?

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I always have people on binders. I'll use a little bit of ... I don't know what's in the PushCatch, but I'll use BioCell's, so I think it's like a similar thing in the PushCatch [inaudible 00:38:13]. There's some silicon and-

Whitney Morgan: No. In the PushCatch, there's two supplements. So the push is the liver sauce, and that's got your bitters, dem, milk thistle, and R-Lipoic Acid. And then the catch is the ultra binder, and that has your Cytozen, IMD, which I believe is silica-based.

Whitney Morgan: We need to do binders every day. It's too toxic of a world not to.

Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Absolutely. I totally agree. Well, that was amazing. Honestly, that is so much information. I'm actually going to probably have to go back and re-listen to this episode and take better notes.

Kendra Perry: Because yeah, that's some really actionable stuff, and some really ... because it is so common that ... you know, I have a friend who I will not name who has Hashimoto's, and they're like, "Oh, but I'm medicated for it, so it's not an issue. I'm taking Synthroid." And you're like, "Well."

Whitney Morgan: It can exacerbate some of the tissue destruction, you know, if you don't have other things in place. And another thing I wanted to mention to is simple things that practitioners can have their clients do. Stay out of swimming pools. Right?

Whitney Morgan: That antagonize the thyroid, and actually compete with the thyroid hormone at the cell receptor site. So if you've got someone who's going to the gym every day and swimming, and they've got ... they're on, god, thyroid hormone replacement therapy, that's crazy. [crosstalk 00:40:21]

Kendra Perry: Or drinking tap water, or showering in tap water. [crosstalk 00:40:25] 'Cause if you're on municipal city water ... I mean, I'm like a broken record with this shit, but I'm always talking about the chlorine, the fluoride in your water. You're putting it into your system every day, and like you said, it competes with thyroid and pushes iodine off of the receptor, which you need [crosstalk 00:40:39] hormone. It's huge. Who's not getting exposed to that crap, right?

Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Yes, it is huge. [crosstalk 00:40:45] Then you know, just the simple things too, like B vitamins and zinc and selenium. I can't count the number of times I have clients who were on the pill for 15 plus years, and now they're dealing with hypothyroidism or Hashimoto's or whatever. It's like, "Well, yeah, of course." It's almost like a guarantee. You are going to get thyroid dysfunction if you've been on the pill for a long period of time. Just wait.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. I see it all the time when I test people's minerals. Like their thyroid ratio is out of rate. Their copper toxic from all the estrogen they've been taking. And it's just unfortunate, because girls get put on it pretty young. I mean, I started taking it when I was like 15 or 16, and no one's getting the information of what it actually can do to your body if you use it long-term, unfortunately.

Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Oh, it's crazy. So Whitney, if people want to connect with you or learn more about you, where can they find you?

Whitney Morgan: Well, they can go to my website at sagepointacupuncture.com. Disclaimer here that I am going through a rebranding process, because I've shut down my private acupuncture practice, and I'm now doing community acupuncture at a local clinic here.

Whitney Morgan: Yeah. I love it too. It's awesome. So now my name confuses people. I'm going to be building a new website, changing my business name. It's going to be more just focused on the functional nutrition aspect of my business, so I'm completely separating them. But I'll still point my URL to my new website, so sagepointacupuncture.com will get you to me for sure.

Kendra Perry: Awesome. And you said you're located in Tuscan, Arizona?

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Total brain fry, but I feel like our audience likes being overwhelmed. They're like, "I feel overwhelmed, but I kind of [inaudible 00:43:04]." And guys, if you like what you're hearing, if you like this episode, make sure to hop on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, wherever. Give us that five-star review. We will give you a live shout-out on air. We will love you, and send you lots of kisses. So yeah, if you like what we're doing, that's the best way to support the show is just give us a quick review. Takes two minutes. And that will help us reach more people. So thanks so much, guys, as always. We very much appreciate you listening to our banter, and we'll see you guys again in two weeks from today. Bye guys.

Kendra: Hello, hello everyone! Welcome to the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry, and I'm joined today with my lovely and beautiful and sexy and unbelievable cohost Christine Hansen. She's got her glass of wine because it's night time for her and she's definitely going to be going ...

Kendra: It's Saturday afternoon for me. We're working on the weekend, working hard. But we are recording this episode kind of on the fly because we have some really important information to bring to you guys and we wanted to make sure that we got it to you as soon as possible. Because if you guys follow us on Instagram @360healthbizpodcast which you definitely should if you're not and you are following our stories, you would have seen that we met in person for the very first time. That was very exciting. We were at the Social Media Marketing World Conference and it was awesome. We definitely highly recommend it. It was time well spent and we learned quite a bit at the conference, and we really want to share some of the very powerful things that we learned because we believe it will help you growing your business.

Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. We were really lucky. There were tons of workshops, and every workshop that we took taught us something new and we definitely would drill it down to the three most important lessons that we're going to pack together here for you. So you're getting the conference on steroids basically.

Christine: Oh it was wonderful. Let's get started. The first thing we wanted to talk to you about was actually from the keynote talk, which was on the second day. Kendra and I, we had all-access passes so we actually started a day early in comparison to just the general public, which makes me feel very posh, and the keynote, the officially keynote, was on the second day by Michael Stelzner in the morning. And I think the main ... What you can drill everything down to that we heard at the conference was that it's not bigger and better anymore but better is bigger. And I love to hear that message because I've tried a long time to get numbers. Grow your email list, grow your Facebook page, grow numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers, and it really, really has come back to that's not the point.

And we saw that in influence on marketing, for example, coming to think of it. Kendra and I, we attended a conference that was basically meant for people who are looking for influencers.

Christine: So we were basically listening in what we should provide, as people who are looking for influencers, and a very big takeaway was that micro and nano influencer. So nano influencer would be up to ... No. What was it? Nano first [crosstalk 00:03:08]

Christine: Those are actually the hot influencers that companies are looking for, because it's niched, it's not diluted, you still have authentic fans there while there's only huge, huge, Instagram accounts where engagement is not necessarily there or when not genuine interest is there. So, I found that really interesting, and the whole conversation was along that line. So one case study that we were taught was that he did an experiment about one of their videos. They have a little show where they publish weekly videos, and he published it on Facebook and he published it on YouTube and he got over 20, 000 views on Facebook but it wasn't promoted because Facebook said it didn't perform too well. And he was wondering why, so he investigated and tracked all the different steps and it turned out that out of the 20, 000 people, and it was a little bit more I think, 19. Only 19 finished the video.

Christine: We both don't have massive ... 20, 50, 000 people email us, but our businesses are very successful. So, I think this was really nice to hear and basically, we both said it's confirmation that what we're doing is right.

Kendra: Yeah, and I felt like I got a lot of validation and over that couple days of "Yeah, we're doing the right things," and I loved what he said about the Facebook thing because think about when you're watching a Facebook video. There's notifications popping up. Those little notifications pop up on the left now. Facebook doesn't actually want you to stay on and watch these long form video.

Kendra: They're trying to distract you, and that's why a lot of people aren't watching the video from start to finish that maybe is a 20 or 30 minute long video because they're so distracted by everything Facebook is trying to do. Whereas your YouTube people, they're on YouTube, they go on YouTube to watch videos, they are coming in without expectation and there's no distractions for the most part, right? They just see that video. So ...

Kendra: I thought that was really interesting. If you're gonna put all your effort into editing and creating this beautiful video series, it's probably gonna do way better on YouTube and you're probably gonna create better relationships that way than on Facebook.

Christine: It's definitely going to perform better. I mean, the science is there and also the statement that Mark Zuckerberg did was basically that they don't want people to waste time on social media, which is hilarious as he's running Facebook, but that was his statement. That they want to encourage people not to mindlessly idle on social media. So they want to be more targeted, they really want to perform more quality content, and they don't want people to just zone out and watch cat videos anymore. So, no basically.

Christine: Lessly in terms of marketing, but also in terms of really look at the platform tries to do and it's not about quantity anymore. It really, really isn't. So that was-

Kendra: Yeah, and I think what does better on Facebook too is the live video He did talk about that because if you're on a live video, you can actually be engaging with your people. It's not just you talking at people, and Facebook really wants you to engage. They want you to have meaningful conversations. So, you can't do that if you just make a beautiful video and dump it out onto your Facebook page, but if you're on there live, then you can actually be having those conversations with people as that video unfolds. So ...

Kendra: And it was about storytelling, and yeah. That was another really common theme in the conference was tell stories. People love to hear stories. So how can you wind your story or your clan's stories into your marketing, into your copy, into the way that you're engaging with people? And during that workshop, he actually taught us how to create our own stories. So it was very actionable, and we really loved that. We both created stories. We actually created a story for this podcast while we were in San Diego.

Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. We did, and he was a great speaker. I really loved how he brought in so many components and different media and humor and it was really great, but his kind of formula for storytelling ... A good story is the ABT, which is the 'and, but, therefore' framework, right?

Christine: Yeah. Exactly. So, we actually ... Do you have our story on hand?

Christine: Also, the ands, buts, therefore. So you have three paragraphs, and every good story ... And he gave examples of Air B and B having an ad. It was a cartoony kind of thing, and it was super nice about the Berlin Wall and how it brings people together. Air B&B and stuff. It was exactly that structure, and he gave a lot of examples and it's short, but it's super efficient and you can use it on your website, you can use it in your videos, you can use it everywhere. So, this is the example of what we came up for; the and, but, therefore.

Kendra: Okay. So it's both of us were working successfully in our health practices, and we really connected over the marketing component of our businesses after running a webinar series together on public speaking. But, we also discovered that selling health is very different than selling other products and other types of services, and most health coaches and professionals are taught an outdated business model; one that fails to get them clients without burning out. Therefore, we created the 360 Health Biz Podcast to teach health coaches and professionals how to use health specific marketing strategies that actually work and keep them up to date with the latest health research.

Christine: I love it. You know, that should be our intro. It's so good.

Kendra: Yeah. It is so good. We could probably tailor it down a little bit, but yeah. You get that ... So we have that first thing, which is our statement. This is our statement about re- [crosstalk 00:10:44] us, our relationship, how we met, and then that but. But we found that there was this issue. There was this problem. There was this struggle.

Christine: Exactly, and if you want to go more into depth, he also says the story elements, if you really want to make sure you don't miss anything, it's the when, the where, the who, the what, and the ah-hah, right? So, and he had a 10 step method that he talks about. So, what makes it different, and then, they are the hero of the story when you talk about your customers. It's not about you. It's about them, what they stand to gain or lose by not working with you, what has happened or is happening in their lives right now that is changing, that is making your service more timely urgent and relevant than ever before. Competitive, time, money, voice of fear that keeps them from working with you. So objection. Then, reinforcing that you are the mentor so how you are uniquely equipped by wisdom et cetera. What do people tell themselves about you that you need to be able to connect with? What does their success look like? Those little milestones, so that they can picture it. What in the stories are our, your values, beliefs that they share? And then, what is your ask? What to do next?

So that's basically, in a nutshell, the structure that he taught us afterwards in a more detailed example. So you have all of that right here, so take not. But ... Fantastic. I really think that if you get that done, whether it is in a blog post, whether it is in your mission statement video, whether it is on your about page, you are on the golden side. I think this is super, super important.

Kendra: Yeah. And I think it just makes it easier for yourself. Suddenly, you know how to talk in your marketing, and you can continue to share that story over and over on different platforms, to different subcategories in your audience and I think ... When you know what your story is, when you know what your values are, when you know what you stand for and how people can change their lives by connecting with you and buying your product or service, I mean, it makes everything a lot easier.

Christine: When [inaudible 00:13:22] it's a nice line people. It was nice ... The minute [inaudible 00:13:28] right here. Alright. So that was storytelling, and then, connecting to that, we went to another workshop about Instagram stories because both of us really started to fall into the vortex of Instagram stories. It's hilarious. It's so much fun, but it's also super, super powerful, and so we were basically taught there's different components to Instagram stories. And she divided it into four buckets, and we were in a workshop that basically looked at one. So, can you remember the four buckets?

Kendra: So, I think the four buckets was Instagram in general. So it was Instagram live, it was the feed, it was IGTV, and it was stories. So, Instagram is kind of a beast and it's almost a bit of an overwhelming platform because you have four different of these pretty big buckets right, and they all ... The way you interact in each of hem is a little bit different, right? Your feed is gonna be more curated, more pretty, gorgeous pictures, really nice captions. Your IG live is more like your instant connection, really off the cuffs, but then it disappears after 24 hours. And then, you have your IGTV, which is longer form video. You get 10 minutes if you're under ... If you're not an approved account. So under 10K, but that's kind of your longer form video better for teaching, but then we have stories, right? And stories, like Christine said, are very powerful because they ... A lot of people are watching stories.

More people on Instagram than any other of those buckets are going into the stories, and it's a great way to connect, it's a great way to be creative, it's a great way to really express your brand. So, we were learning a lot about how to specifically use stories to build a brand, but also, by using all the different features. And one big thing that she said, and this was a talk from Susan Urman. I like her. I loved her crazy dress and she was really fun and-

Kendra: Animated. She was great, but she says to have a plan for your story. So ...

Christine: Which we are so bad [crosstalk 00:15:26] at. Both of us looked at each other. Oh.

Kendra: We're just like bam, bam, bam, bam, but you know ... And that plan doesn't always have to be this big, educational piece. Sometimes that plan might just to be to share something from your personal life. But keep in mind that you should be trying to tell a story with it rather than just bam! Me eating. Bam! Me biking. Bam! Meal with my kid, or whatever, right? Actually trying [crosstalk 00:15:52] sequentially. Maybe in four of those posts, tell a story.

Christine: Exactly. It might be that you are getting ready to put on your gear to bike. Then it might be your journey up the mountain, and then it might be a little snippet of you racing down, and then it might be a snippet of you in the hospital you know?

Kendra: I'll just take that selfie of myself as I race down the mountain on my mountain bike. We'll see how that goes. It will be like me eating shit and breaking my face [crosstalk 00:16:17] I'm gonna give it a go.

Kendra: But you know, Christine, you made that story that I saw at the airport from when your flight got canceled, and I was blown away. I was like, "Holy shit! That was really good. She just crushed that story." And I was like, "How did you even do that?" It looked so good. It was a quality story. You even mentioned ECAM. You even got a good mention of the brand, which we now know that ECAM is a three-person company. So we're all up on them.

Kendra: But yeah. I was like, "Wow! I need to take lessons from you now."

Christine: So let me tell you the story, actually, for you guys. So my flight was originally in the evening from San Diego to London, and then I had just about an hour layover, and then London Luxembourg. And in the morning, thank god I got an email or a notification that my flight in the evening was canceled, which would mean that my layover would only have been 17 minutes, which would have been impossible. It's too big. There's no way. So I called British Airways and I was re booked, but the only way that I could do this was if I had to go from L.A. So basically, I recorded my ode to stay from San Diego to Los Angeles and beyond, and it was not easy to get there because it was Sunday. I'm a little bit posh. So I didn't want to take the Am Track. It took me five Lyft and Uber drivers to actually find one who took me because they were like, "It's too far. I don't have time."

Thank you Vincent from San Diego. Lyft driver. You are forever my savior, and basically, what I did was along the journey, I just took little snippets of the coast or of the environment or of wherever we were driving past and I used the following: So, when we were in the workshop, we were told that you should always use ... If you can, you should use the same filter, if you do use a filter. I don't so I didn't do that, and color. So I already decided on a color palette that reflects my branding, which is mainly pink. Bright pink, dark pink, and green. So I tried to stick to that. If you can, you can also use the same font. I tried ... I have two that I use mainly, and use stickers, use polls, location stickers, hashtag stickers, mention as much as you can, and swipe up if possible.

And so ... And tag strategically and so forth. And so, I did that. I really tagged ... So obviously, I tagged every location. I used the location sticker wherever I went. So I actually got into stories of these locations. So, into San Diego's story. So when they see that ... When you tag location stories or when you take your location, they will pull you out and put you into their feed, which is super cool.

Christine: And then, I used GIF all the time to make it fun. And I mentioned ECAM because I have their stickers on my laptop now, so I just used that when I was in the business lounge, and you can basically see my journey through ... Along the coast, because he took the scenic route to LAX, to the business lounge, into the plane, and it was a story. It was just my journey and it was live and it took ... It takes three hours to get there. So it was fun to do. That said.

Christine: So that worked, and there are different tricks that you can use to change the background color and all of these things. You can find them on YouTube. It's not that difficult to do, actually. But it really changed my opinion of stories, because you can get super creative and she compared it to scrap booking.

Christine: And that's a little bit what it is, because you want everything to be nice and fun and also, to typically make use of it. So, I'm really trying to each time, find a hashtag, mention someone if I can, and to use the location ... What's it called? Location sticker, I guess.

Kendra: Yeah. Just like where you tag the locations, but yeah. I think that's really cool, and I mean, it is a really cool place where you can engage and you should try to engage. One that I use all the time is the poll functions. You can ask little questions and people can vote. So that gets people to engage in your stories, and then there's also an Ask Me Anything sticker as well. So after you tell a story, you could've said, "Ask me anything about working from the road," or "Ask me anything about whatever you just told your story about" and then people can go in and they can ask you question and you can repost those stickers and have a quick video of you talking and answering the question or you can just do a text version of that.

Kendra: That's really cool too, and I see a lot of bigger accounts using that quite a bit. And people get really excited. I have a colleague who has an Ask Me Anything Tuesday or something like that, so people know that every Tuesday, they can go and ask her anything and then she's gonna answer all the questions. So I think, there's a lot of really cool ways you can engage your audience.

Christine: Yeah, and also something that you suggested, and I haven't checked it out yet but it's the Unfold app?

Christine: Yeah. So that's a little tidbit here of wisdom that I took in my notes. I took notes guys. I never took notes. I feel ... It goes to show that I would've forgotten everything if I hadn't taken notes and ... Oh yeah! And also, use older posts and share them in story. And I think that's amazing because I was thinking I have so many posts. I have my interviews three years ago when I was an entrepreneur on fire. I never use it. Why not? You know? Use it in your stories. Just take the graphic, use it, say 'link in bio' for that day, and it's true. You have so much content and because it's only there for 24 hours, you can repurpose so much.

Kendra: You can repurpose it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, and I know this is not from Social Media Marketing World but it is from the su- We saw Chalene Johnson who used to be the Beachbody lady and now she has her podcast, I believe is Build Your Own Tribe, but her son, Brock, does some episodes and he said ... Oh my gosh. I'm brain farting. And it's gone from my brain.

Oh no! No I got it. It's back. When you do an Instagram live, it only stays for 24 hours, but you can save the Instagram live and put it onto IGTV. So I thought that was cool because then you're doing-

Kendra: If you're gonna take that time to do a live video. It's a period after 24 hours, you might as well repurpose it somewhere else.

Christine: Exactly. Yeah. And I actually mindlessly did Instagram live for different things. I was like, "Okay. This is not worth people's time." You know? So, in the end ... For me, in the beginning, Instagram was my personal life. I used Facebook for professional reasons. I have Instagram to push my [inaudible 00:23:58] and what I had for breakfast, and it completely changed to be honest. Because now, I consider myself as an influencer and I need to curate and prune my Instagram versus my Facebook private page. It's just that's where I now post my personal stuff and my Facebook business page nobody watches anyway, but that's where my business content goes as well.

Christine: I think the dynamics between Facebook and Instagram have completely flipped. Not for everyone, but for a lot of people.

Kendra: Yeah. I'm the same way as you. I used to use Facebook like crazy. I barely even use my personal page anymore. Sometimes, I go on there and ask for recommendations but I barely post anything on there, but I love Instagram. I am on it all the time. It's more engaging. More people. You get more reach, and from a business perspective, there's so many ways you can reach people on it, and it's tough with a Facebook business page, right? It's not an engaging platform, right? It's just [crosstalk 00:24:55]

Christine: You're literally set up for ... Not necessarily completely, but I think it's more difficult and you have to be very smart about it. And again, get you to not be bigger is better and we saw that's what brings us to our last point that we want to share with you. We saw the absolutely, fantastic, amazing ...

Christine: What her main message is, and we're going to go into it in a little bit more detail, but it's that you cannot just tell people to opt into anything anymore. You cannot [inaudible 00:25:49] code audience, even if it means it's only asking for their email address.

Christine: So her strategy is that you really have to thought backwards. Your sell or your ask, even if ask, it's not even to sell something is the last thing you do. So, she starts out with just an engagement ads. Just making a statement, polarizing, asking questions. Maybe say that there's a blog post about it, but then she doesn't even do it in the ad. She does it in the comments.

Kendra: Literally just looking for it. Even ask a question to your audience that makes sense. If you are a food preparation expert, you can ask people what are your biggest issues with food prep or do you prefer to food prep on Sunday night or Friday night or whatever, right? Because then you can also get some more information about your audience that is ... It makes sense, but you know, at the same time, you're just getting people to engage and getting out in front of them. Seeing them, be like, "Hey. This is me."

Kendra: And then, what were her other two? There was testimonials and objections, right?

Christine: Exactly. So testimony is where where she literally used testimonials from past clients, screenshots. It works really well for her if she uses Facebook app, obviously, because she can literally take a screenshot of the power editor and show results and then objections. She always has a sequence of three.

Christine: So, if you've seen the first one, then you get the second one, and then you get the third one. So she's really ... Every category from engagement to testimonial to objection has three ads. So it's nine in total, I believe. If I remember correctly, but it's very strategic, and she explains other strategies that she uses. And I think it makes complete sense, and again, it's not about the more it is. It's about being strategic, it's being personal, it's story related, it's not ... Old school marketing is just not working anymore and when I talk old school, I mean five years ago.

Kendra: Yeah. Old school ... It doesn't take long to become old school in today's world and online marketing. You know, just because you can get a cheap cost per lead when you're running a Facebook ad doesn't mean that's a high quality lead. That doesn't mean that that someone who's even gonna open your email and download your freebie or your lead magnet or whatever that is. That doesn't mean they're gonna end up buying eventually. So, I think I love her strategy because it builds that know like and trust factor for a fairly long time. So by the time she's actually asking people to do something, and I thought it was really interesting that she doesn't even use lead magnets. Right? She just sends people the sequence of blog posts, which I think is really cool, but if you are using a lead magnet, by the time ... If you're doing this sort of strategy where you're getting them to engage, you're showing them the testimonial and how you've helped other people, you're dealing with their objections to what they might have for your product or service.

By the time you're asking them to get on your email list, they might be super stoked to get on your email list and get your freebie. So they're more likely to open that email, they're more likely to actually use and finish your freebie, and then they're way more likely to stay on your email list and engage on your list, right? And eventually, buy, right? Because I've had this issue too. I'm really good at getting a low cost for leads with my Facebook ads. I'm pretty good at that, but I have noticed ... This didn't always used to be the issue, but in the past year, a lot of those leads, they're just not that-

Kendra: High quality. They don't convert. They just want the free thing and then they're gone.

Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's like the phenomenon with quizzes and for some time, if we quiz, it was the opt in thing when it's been over and over again shown that while you have the biggest opt in, it converts like a motherfucker when you do it in terms of people finding opts, but at the end of the funnel, you don't have conversion when it comes to paying money. So quizzes, whenever I hear someone saying, "I just did a quiz. I want to do a quiz." It's like, don't do it. You will be so disappointed. You will have to pay for your leads, even if they're not expensive, you have to pay for your email provider because your list will grow and you have to pay for those people and they will not buy.

Christine: They will more likely report you as a spammer getting you into trouble with your email provider rather than even spend 27 bucks on a product of yours. So, that's a little bit of takeaway that I've seen and what she taught was totally aligned with that.

Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. I had a quiz or something like a self assessment or something like that that I did under the advice of a coach and it got me really cheap leads. It converted really well, but it just didn't ... Those people didn't even open my email.

Kendra: Yeah. So, when you think about it, when you're kind of scrolling on your Facebook feed and there's a quiz, you may not have that issue but you're like, "Oh, I'm just interested. I just want to see how I do on the quiz," and they you're done, right?

Christine: Yeah. Like, "Don't bother with me your product you slime ball," right? And I get people. I really do. So nowadays, it's like, "Ugh. I don't even want to click on it because I know I'll have to give away my email address, which I don't want to do." So that was definitely an interesting talk and I suggest you check out Amanda. She's fantastic.

Christine: And then, the last point we want to talk about I remembered is Pat Flynn. So check out Pat Flynn with his podcast ... What is it? Passive Income ... Not Passive Income? More Passive Income ...

Christine: Tripod, which I'm using mine here. You're using it as well? I'm using mine here, but yeah. I have my issues with it too. But their using [inaudible 00:32:04] and it's been very successful, but he talked about how they did it. What their process was like, and in a nutshell, what they did was they really went ... You can imagine it like a sweet, and they would make sure they had green lights all the way and the way that they did it was by talking to people. So they went to conferences where vloggers hung out, people who used it. They showed them a couple models, they showed them the idea, they asked them what they wanted, what they needed. And so, once they knew what they wanted, they did the prototype and then they would just ... Every step before they basically spend money in a way, they would make sure that the idea was revalidated.

Kendra: Yeah. It is, and it's actually ... It looks like a really good product, but yeah. And he talked a lot about having those real conversations. The way they ended up creating it was talking to people, right?

Kendra: They were talking to people and hearing that this Gorilla pod just wasn't ... It was annoying. It would blah, blah, blah. It didn't do this. It lacked this. It was good for this but not this sort of thing. And you know, and we were kind of talking before we started recording about sort of the full circle of marketing, right? Because back in the day before this big online beast, people marketed through networking and having conversations with people, and then we got online and we stopped doing that for a while. And it worked for a few years, but these days, it's coming back around where people don't buy from brands. They buy from people. If you want to be successful, you have to know your people. You have to talk to them. You have to have those conversations and develop those relationships. So it is all coming very full circle and I really love that.

Christine: Exactly, and we're going to add a point here because I'm just reading my notes and this is from the influencer conference that we-

Christine: People tell stories because they use it in their every day life, and a brand can't do it. If you have an ad created by a brand, it can do whatever it wants to. It's not the same thing as a real life person telling that story. So, influencers understand the audience. Companies usually only create content about the company-

Christine: And I find it very true. Very often ... I can see it in Luxembourg a lot of the time. PR agencies in Luxembourg are so old school. They don't know what brand experience really is and I find they really lack that connect that people are craving nowadays. And that's the job of an influencer; it's creating word of mouth in social media. So ... And they really say social media should be about collaboration and not just marketing.

Christine: Very, very smart. So those are just a couple of things that we took away from this but I think it ties in, again, that if you are a big brand, in the end, people want to connect. They do want the touch for sure, but in the end, a lot of people ... The first thing that they will do is they're going to look for reviews, they're gonna look for what is happening in life, and ultimately, only real people can tell that story.

Christine: So again, it's coming ... Boiling down to people and I think we are more people-centered than we've been in a very long time.

Kendra: I think so too, and I think that yeah. Just with the fact that so many people are really busy and so many people are on social media, we've really gotten disconnected. So people want to connect again. They really want to know people, and a big reason why brands are looking for these micro influencers because you know, not only are they way more likely to work harder, because they're trying to build themselves too, right? They're not just some Hollywood influencer who's whatever, but it's [crosstalk 00:36:22]

Christine: You have to watch it on Netflix, and you know, that's what ... I think that was a huge wake up call in terms of that ... The huge influencers. Not necessarily the best value for your money.

Kendra: Yeah. Totally, and I think, with your ... Just having smaller businesses; this is great, because if you're new to your business or you're mid-level, you probably don't have a really big following and that's okay. You don't need to ever have one. Me and Christine have very small social media followings. We have very small lists. We're successful. We can generate large amounts of money when we want to, and it's because we put the time in to get to know our people, to get to know our niche, and know who we're talking to. And when you know your people, you know what to create for them, honestly.

Christine: Exactly. Speaking to your brand, it's about being an expert in your field. I mean, I work with brands as an influencer and it's because I know my shit, right? Because they know that if they have a journalist who wants to do a piece on their product, they can send me because I can talk about the product but I can also talk about the research behind it. I can talk about the theory behind it. I can talk about the science behind it, and I have tested it. So I can talk about my experience behind it. And that's this full 360 package that you can't get if you just send a media kit right?

Christine: And I think nobody should be too shy to do that if your niche is important. Whatever your niche is, trust in it. Get out there. Present it. Every piece of media, you can use it. You just need to be creative and think out of the box.

Kendra: Yeah. Absolutely, and even though if you feel like you're small beans, there might be someone ... And you want to work with brands. There may be a brand that's looking for someone just like you.

Kendra: I love it. Yeah, it's really fun to connect with people in person, right? Because we're so much behind our screens. I'm in a tiny little town. No one here ... They're like, "So what do you do?" I'm like, "I'm not even gonna bother telling you." You're all gonna look at me like I have three heads. So ...

Kendra: Oh my god. It blew my mind. Uber Eats, Uber. I guess we use Lyft more than Uber, but I was like, "This is awesome, because my ... I don't love the city, but one of my biggest issues of the city is it's so hard to get around. If you rent a car, I'm stressed out driving because I don't know where I'm going. You take transit, it takes forever. Cabs are so expensive. So it's just ... You know, I don't love the experience, but the day that we were apart, which was crazy that we were apart for today, but I was in three Ubers just cruising around. I went there, there, there. I just would go on Google and what should I do next? Oh! Kombucha brewery? Yes please! And I'd book a Lyft to there.

Christine: Oh it was a great time. I mean, yeah. It was a good, good event and San Diego is always nice especially in the winter or when it's just not spring yet. It was lovely, so we're definitely going to check in again next year and we're hoping that you will join us. So, let us know if this has been helpful.

Christine: And give us feedback. Check out our Instagram stories that are going to be super branded and super nice.

Kendra: Yeah, and [crosstalk 00:40:24] Listening to your episode on your smartphone, screenshot this episode, share it on Instagram stories, tag 360 Health Biz Podcast, and we will share it in our stories because we love Instagram stories now. So you should probably do that.

Christine: Yeah. Let's do a quick post for the Instagram story. Well cute. We do very great poses. So anyways, nevermind. We will watch out for our tag on Instagram stories, and yeah. That's it for us today.