porpoise wrote:Jason, it sounds like you're familiar with Thanissaro's ideas, so could you say briefly what evidence he provides to support the assertion that becoming means a sense of identity in a particular world of experience? I can't see any support for this idea in sutta descriptions of dependent origination, so presumably this relates to the use of bhava in other contexts?

Based on current English translations, I can't find "direct" sutta support either.

I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.

Hitvā icchañ ca lobhañ ca, yattha satto puthujjano,cakkhumā patipajjeyya tareyya narakam imam.Forsaking desire and lust where the commoner is stuckLet the man with eyes proceed and get across this hell. (Sn. 706: 137)

As some suggested before, I also translate it as "existence". Existence as in the usual interpretation. That makes it all a lot clearer, at least to me. Then again, I don't think dependent origination is meant to explain some moment-to-moment process, so I don't need to go into troubles finding another translation. Now simply, as long as there is craving, there will be new existence.

The difficulty I still have with this interpretation is that it depends on birth and death being psychological ( mental ). But in the suttas birth and death are clearly described in physical terms - which logically means that bhava ( their condition ) is a process with both physical and mental aspects, not just a mental process.

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric

SDC wrote:I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.

I don't think bhava is a view, I think it's the result of a view - ultimately ignorance in the context of DO.I think "becoming" is a good translation for bhava because it gives the sense of a dynamic process, but the suttas strongly suggest it has both physical and mental aspects.

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric

SDC wrote:I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.

I don't think bhava is a view, I think it's the result of a view - ultimately ignorance in the context of DO.I think "becoming" is a good translation for bhava because it gives the sense of a dynamic process, but the suttas strongly suggest it has both physical and mental aspects.

Right on, porpoise. To each their own.

Perhaps we could venture into a discussion of the entire PS at a later date.

Hitvā icchañ ca lobhañ ca, yattha satto puthujjano,cakkhumā patipajjeyya tareyya narakam imam.Forsaking desire and lust where the commoner is stuckLet the man with eyes proceed and get across this hell. (Sn. 706: 137)

lojong1 wrote:Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?(I have still not read the book)

Interesting connection, I know bhavana means cultivation which is a process of change and growth, perhaps that would lend some credence to the idea of bhava meaning becoming since the english word also signifies a state of change. Alternatively, one could just read the suttas with both translations in mind, i.e. existence and becoming.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

lojong1 wrote:Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?(I have still not read the book)

Interesting connection, I know bhavana means cultivation which is a process of change and growth, perhaps that would lend some credence to the idea of bhava meaning becoming since the english word also signifies a state of change. Alternatively, one could just read the suttas with both translations in mind, i.e. existence and becoming.

Yes, I believe bhavana is derived from bhava. Bhavana has the meaning of developing or producing mental states, which appears to support the translation of bhava as "becoming" - though as a nidana bhava seems to have a more specific meaning, as described in MN9 and SN12.2.

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric