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missb writes "According to NewScientist.com, online gamers are no 'couch potatoes'. US researchers quizzed players of the role-playing game EverQuest II, and found adult gamers to be in better physical condition than the average American. The downside, however, was the gamers reported more cases of depression and substance abuse than their compatriots."

Researchers at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, the Palo Alto Research Center, also in California, and the University of Delaware in Newark, quizzed 7000 players of the role-playing game EverQuest II about their physical and mental health. Participants were offered a specially created virtual weapon as an incentive - the "Greatstaff of the Sun Serpent". The researchers then combined the survey responses with statistics about players' online activities and playing habits.

And we know the results are accurate, because they're working with a demographic famous for honest and forthright self-disclosure.

Well, if by 'better shape' they mean less obese that the avg. American, it is probably due to them being too engrossed by the game to go buy junk food. They're not in better shape, they've just starving a bit more than the average US citizen.

They're not in better shape, they've just starving a bit more than the average US citizen.

When I considered myself a "gamer" (Q1CTF) I was a Division I athlete attending a state university with ready access to tons of junk food and recreational enhancements that I readily consumed in greater amounts than I could even again. But because I was in college, and working out twice a day 5.5x a week, I was in great shape. I have a feeling that while the age range for those that consider themselves "gamers" is widening, the majority of people are still HS and college aged kids who have a bit more of an active lifestyle than the rest of us that work in some boring office tower all day and then retire home for an evening of various PC or console games.

I'm a relatively happy and healthy (not athletic, but 6'4"/185lb), and I play MMOs mostly to socialize, not hide. Some of my old friends from high school play who I haven't actually seen in person for 12 years, so its a nice way to get together and hang out, especially when distance and schedules keep us from meeting in person that often. Probably still healthier, since we'd probably be meeting in the local pub.

If your definition of gaming includes the idea of hiding, then you have an unhealthy relationship with games. I've been playing video games since I was 6, and using the internet since I was eight, these are increasingly just becoming a way of life, much like television and books, to an increasing amount of the population. Is watching 2 hours of TV after work escapism? Is reading a novel? What about a nice solitary hike (not as exercise, but just to blow the stink off)? All of these are somewhat escapist, I suppose, but not necessarily unhealthy when taken in moderation. All of them have about the same value, and the same purpose.

Though I admit, sometimes I use both the hike and the games as an escape mechanism, not often, but sometimes they make for a good, cheap, vacation from stress. If I still read much fiction, it too would be a good mini-vacation, but sadly I don't think technical manuals and philosophy tomes are very relaxing.

As in all things, moderation is key, and your relationship with whatever activity. I've seen people be far more self-destructive with exercise than I have with gaming or reading. To be honest, I find sports more unhealthy than gaming most the time, since it is MORE stressful to the participants.

these are increasingly just becoming a way of life, much like television and books, to an increasing amount of the population. Is watching 2 hours of TV after work escapism? Is reading a novel? What about a nice solitary hike (not as exercise, but just to blow the stink off)?

Thank you. I am an English teacher (language, not lit.), but even I am sick of people putting these things on a hierarchy of "best" to "worst" (and always putting gaming at the bottom!).

Reading is escapist. What it has going for it, though, is that it's cheap. A book can give you quite a few hours of entertainment for as little as free, if there's a good library nearby.

Television is escapist. What it has going for it is that it is popular and gives you something to talk about with other people the n

It's really not just a weight thing. I'm extremely thin (to the point where most people would probably think I'm anorexic) yet I hover somewhere between depressed and horrendously bored 95% of the time. I don't touch MMOs but I've certainly spent my fair share of time and then some playing games, though I'm mostly just writing code these days. It's really a more generic social issue - I've got a 300lb gamer-obsessive friend who's always having a blast, even when there's not a controller in his hands. I'm still trying to figure out his trick.

Point being it's not just you, and it's certainly not because of being overweight. I had a neighbor who was suicidal and he was quite healthy, physically at least. I'm not going to be the guy that gives out sage advice on the subject because even if I know it would help I won't/can't follow it myself, probably for the same reasons you wouldn't follow it either (an "it wouldn't help" attitude, at a very high level; though it goes much deeper than that)

Slashdot attracts a lot of outliers - And they're even more prominent because the outliers (and occasional outliars) are the ones motivated enough to post to disprove stereotypes. I believe that there are a lot of gamers out there that are athletic and happy. But, in spite of FP's accurate assessment that gamers may game the system, I tend to believe the researchers results. Many gamers are obsessive (I know I was). And sitting down to game immediately after finishing school often took me well into the

I think the unspoken issue here is that America's obesity problem is tied in with the poorer classes. The poorer you are the better chance you have of being obese.

Gamers who can dedicate 4+ hours a day to a game tend to be middle class. They can afford the time, hardware, etc to play these games. A lot of mmo gamers are students and youth generally translates into health. Computer gaming, as opposed to console gaming, has a couple barriers to e

Hmm... if I go by the people I know that play WoW (sorry, I don't know any EQ2 players - Guild Wars yes, Conan yes, but the majority I know play WoW), most I know are in better-than-average physical shape. In fact, I know only two overweight people that play WoW, but I know many more overweight people that do not.

As for depression, I can see that - I think many adult MMORPG players that stick with it are stretched to the limits by daily stress (whether it be work, kids, schedule, or whatever) and use it as

I am wondering if by better shape they mean they are skinnier then the average Fat american. That would make sence as they are so involved in the game they do not eat as much (boredom food) and will probably only stop to eat when they are very hungry. Not that doesn't meen they are Fit. A Fat man can be more Fit then a skinny one. I know some skinny gammers and I am a bit overweight. However I can do a 10 mile hike in the woods and end up much better then the gammer as while I may have more fat, I also hav

Not that I do either, but the fact of illegal substance use is not evidence of a problem itself, more an indicator that the person has little regard for this area of law, and may be disconnected from society/not buy into its values. This links up with depression and dissatisfaction.

It's a bias you *always* have to account for in articles about public health, unless they come from the most unbiased clinical sources possible. (and even then, summaries by mass media usually throw the abuse moniker in)

To a large portion of the media/"public health" professionals, any use of an illegal substance, even moderate and responsible, is "abuse". These are the same people who define 5 drinks in 24 hours as a "binge".

has become a self-reflexive meme, especially on slashdot, used without thought

well guess what: finding a correlation is the first step in establishing causation, and it is entirely logical to conjecture a causative arrangement once a correlative conneciton has been established

so in the future, i would suggest that you, and anyone else reading this comment who loves vomiting "correlation is not causation" as a substitute for actual thought, to spell out exactly why you think there is no causative arrangement here, or in any other discussion

because i, and many others i think here on slashdot and elsewhere are pretty sick of the smarmy "correlation is not causation" kneejerk response

its nothing more than intellectual laziness at best, but most usually intellectual dishonesty

You are right. Even the article is tagged "correlation is not causation". Nowhere in the article or the summary is said 'Gaming causes X'. If anyone has bothered to read it (Welcome, you must be new here, haha we're having so much fun) they would have noticed that the researchers SPECULATE on causes for the differences between gamers and other people, but they don't say X causes Y. Because they know that they can't prove that. Because they KNOW "correlation is not causation".

"where all drugs were 100% legal, including meth, heroin, cocaine, etc., the use of these substances would still be seen as a mental health issue"

Those ones you mentioned, perhaps so. Other substances less so, clearly depending on whether people are exhibiting addictive behaviour.

"because it is not mentally normal to need a foreign substance to support your brain chemistry"

Agreed. Where exactly was "need" mentioned?

"anyone who doesn't NEED drugs understands what i am talking about"

I don't understand what you're talking about and it's been years since I transgressed the law in this area. You've jumped straight from me saying "not all drug use is abuse" to accusing me of being an addict.

"and if you say you don't NEED a certain drug, and are right now formulating a rationalization against these words of mine, then congratulations: you are probably an addict. an addict needs a hard, reactive wall of rationalization to convince themselves to constantly need a foregin substance for their brain chemistry"

You're barking up the wrong tree mate. My complaint was the immediate anti-drug stance (i.e. no qualification of the word abuse) taken by the media. You're the one coming up with talk about addiction, habits etc.

"in fact your words above "an indicator that the person has little regard for this area of law, and may be disconnected from society/not buy into its values" screams rationalization"

Please explain. It is now very commonplace for people to smoke weed, however doing so implies a disregard for the law of the land. It does not necessarily imply addiction, any more than going for a beer with your buddies after work implies alcoholism.

"using drugs has absolutely nothing to do with being countercultural."

Didn't say it did, I said it implied lack of respect for that area of law and not buying into society's values, notably the ones that brought that law into being and keep it in place.

"there are many people who buy all of a society's questionable values who become addicts (rush limbaugh) and there are plenty of counterculture icons who don't use drugs at all"

Again with the addiction! I would also suggest that Rush does not buy into the crap he spews forth.

"there are plenty of counterculture icons who don't use drugs at all"

So?

"or, put another way, when it comes to being counterculture and using drugs, correlation is not causation;-)"

Yes, but when it comes to taking illegal drugs you are breaking the law, this shows explicitly that you don't respect that part of the law or the social values that brought it into being and keep it there. It's pretty simple.

I'm not trying to paint some sort of counterculture mystique here, just say it is possible to use some of these things without being or becoming an addict or an "abuser", and that if you do you probably don't fully buy into the values of the society you find yourself in as you are going directly against them.

imagine a continuum running from water to sugar to caffeine to methamphetamine

sonmewhere within that continuum you begin to develop legal restrictions on what is ok to use and what is not

i mean we can argue about gun control law too. but if i say i am for gun control laws, that doesn't mean i want to control your thoughts as well. likewise, if i am against gun control laws, that also doesn't mean i want everyone to have free access to plutonium

Speaking of other games -- who made the erroneous extrapolation that what applies to Everquest II players will necessarily apply to "gamers"? The "researchers", the slashdot submitter or the editor?

Perhaps there is a common cause for depression, playing EQ2 and being "healthy" (or did they mean "not overweight", and made another erroneous extrapolation?), and perhaps not.

In any case, this doesn't say anything about gamers in general. To use a car analogy for a change, this is like studying a group of people who own a Ford Explorer, and then extrapolate this to draw conclusion about drivers.

since when has an evercrack player ever gotten away long enough to score some drugs? Or have a way to pay for them? Most of the ones I know of can't stop long enough to make the walk out of the basement to go raid the medicine cabinet in the bathroom.

so people suffer from depression and substance abuse when they spend most of their time indoors by themselves and most of their friends are virtual?

in what fashion is this news?

any doctor from the 50s could of predicted this given the symptoms/way of life of a hard core gamer. they'd of been horrified to learn that most of us sit in a chair for hours at a time hammering like poor possessed souls on little rows of buttons. as for junk food and long range commutes - who knows what they would of thought?

I've often wondered why gamers are the pariahs of the home entertainment world. It's much more acceptable to society if you lay on your couch all night and stare at the idiot box. I'll bet if you described the two activities to a doctor from the 50s he'd be slightly more concerned about the person doing literally NOTHING than the gamer who has to at least use his brain and move (albeit very little).
I play MMOs and I'm not "hammering like [a] poor possessed soul" on my keyboard. What the hell does that eve

fair comment. but that "hammering on keys in a chair" I actually meant as a working place! sorry I guess I should of specified that I meant the change in the working demographic from the 50s. doh! it was clear in my head anyhow....

Their tendency to fitness caused them to abuse substances, and that caused them to attempt online games, and the subsequent grind cause them to become depressed. Ummm. The crowds they met online pressured them to start drug use, and they had to start running from the law. Ummm. Their drug abuse caused them to meet people who were into online games, and that caused... Darn. This correlation / causality stuff is hard.

I started mmo gaming to hide from a failing marriage, after marriage counseling failed. My wife started getting meaner and meaner, so I started gaming to bury myself in my office and hide from it.

We recently decided to get a divorce. I dropped all of my accounts, started working out again and I've never been more happy in my life. "Hardcore" gamers are usually either escaping from something, or addicted to gaming. Neither situation is conducive to happiness. I'd guess that the ones who are escaping from something are more often also abusing(caffiene, pot, beer, whatever).

I don't think gaming directly causes the unhappiness, it's caused by the circumstances surrounding the gaming. I started gaming *because* I was unhappy. Obsessive compulsive gamers tend to lose their jobs and families because of the gaming. My marriage was already on life support so it was sort of reversed.

Casual gaming is also pretty prevalent and that's perfectly healthy. I'd bet that they'd get much different results interviewing casual gamers.

I quit because now I have better stuff to do and the source of my pain is gone. I'm also looking better because I cook my own food out of fresh ingredients;). I feel really bad for addicted people. They have to hit rock bottom to quit. I never had to do that. Well actually, it's probably more accurate to say I hit rock bottom before I started gaming.

started mmo gaming to hide from a failing marriage, after marriage counseling failed. [snip] We recently decided to get a divorce. I dropped all of my accounts, started working out again and I've never been more happy in my life.

I fucking hate people like you. you just fuck up online games with your lack of commitment. why don't you just hit the bottle like a normal person would do. or drugs. something. you know, some of us do actually enjoy gaming and don't use it as a filler for a void fucking life.

you failed at marriage. you failed at gaming. good luck "working out". hope that works out for you.

I absolutely agree with one of your statements, at least. "I don't think gaming directly causes the unhappiness. It's caused by the circumstances surrounding the gaming."

Gaming is, at the core, an escape mechanism. ALL of us feel the need to escape our daily lives now and then. That's why we enjoy things like watching movies. For a couple hours, we're focused on fictional characters and what's happening in THEIR lives, instead of our own. The problem is, when your life becomes something you dread retu

I resent the implication that we gamers suffer from problems with depression. I mean, with the amount of Ecstasy I've downed over the past 24 hours I should be well past carefree until Sunday, at least!

I am fitter than most of my co workers and I game quite a bit, FPS only these days as RPG's are to addictive.
I can see why there would be more depression and substance abuse, after all they don't call it "Evercrack" for nothing, and video games are just another escape like drugs or alcohol for some people.

I think it stems from lack of control / feelings of powerlessness in real life and when they game (especially RPG'S) there is a feeling of control and power, escapism at its finest.

In either case I chose to only play quake style FPS (TF2, Quakewars, ETC) instead of RPG's, because in an RPG I wind up putting more effort into the game than I do my own "real life".FPS I just shoot characters for a few hours and I am done no character to worry about.

While everyone else is lying about their health, I'm going to be brutally honest:

1. I'm 300lbs2. I imbibe a gallon or two of beer/liquor each week3. Cocaine's a hell of a drug4. Nethack, baby!

All that to say: there is absolutely no unique correlation between gaming habits and fitness. You could have any hobby/pastime in the world, if you overdo it, it can be bad for your health. If you knit 23 hours a day, you're (hopefully) gonne die. If you run marathons 23 hours a day, you're definitely gonna die.

Hell, if you jerk off 23 hours a day, you're gonna die (and be featured on CSI:Miami).

Someone needs to lay the fuck off of gamers. Just because a bunch of nutso kids in Columbine liked to play Doom, doesn't mean gamers should be treated as odd little lab rats.

I haven't seen demographics from any of the games you listed, but I play WoW and most of the guild members (approximately 35 on regularly) and friends (6 real life, approximately 15 unguilded or other guilds) I play with are at least 30 years old. I'd put a quarter of them over 40 and one is 60. Now I realize it is a small sample, but so far my experience is that WoW doesn't have a younger audience.