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Cammien Ray welcomes Martin back with an episode full of reveals – some expected, and some quite unexpected. What twist were you shocked by? Join us for a discussion of: What just happened in Star City??

This season Arrow will be airing on Mondays at 8pm ET. Our podcast episodes will be posted the following Wednesday, so we can accept email/voice feedback through Tuesday afternoon – and maybe an early Tuesday evening submission might make it in if you’re quick.

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2 Comments

Aaron
on February 14, 2019 at 10:01 pm

Part 1 of 2…

Welcome back Flash!

#KeepBlackSirenEvil!

Speaking of Black Siren, was this all just a set up to push her on the team more because I feel there were some choices that did exactly that; first you have the HUGE move of taking Dinah’s cry from her which was a direct conflict to Black Siren’s ability and left at least me questioning how both would work on a team given they have the same power, that issue is now resolved so it gives her an in. Side note: if they took Dinah’s voice just to give Siren a spot on the team then I am going to be pissed! I know they want to shove that redemption plot down our throats with Siren so it works to have her interact with the team more but you don’t have to take Dinah’s power to do that, just continue to be forceful and say Dinah is now Lance and Siren is now taking Dinah’s spot on the team wether you like it or not fans – there’s no need to take Dinah’s power just because you want to make her the new Lance. You could just as easily say she’s deciding not to use her Cry anymore because she’s embracing her cop side more because she gets the vigilante rule which by the way would make it more angsty when she did get the scar because she could have used her voice all that time but now can’t so you get this “appreciate your gifts while you have them” thing but no that’s over now. Oh my gosh if they do a scene where Dinah hands over the mantle of Canary to Siren that’s going to be a massive middle finger to fans I feel because while they THINK it’s saying “Hey fans, look Laurel/Black Canary is back!” it’s actually still a middle finger because 1) you should have killed Laurel off to start with and 2) it’s like saying “don’t worry about your favorite character dying – you can replace them with this random look alike, just give us 5 episodes to make them the character you enjoyed before and we’ll be all good” and that is not okay – BLACK SIREN IS NOT LAUREL LANCE FROM THIS EARTH, SHE WILL NEVER BE LAUREL LANCE FROM THIS EARTH BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT LIFE EXPERIENCES so even if everything else from here out was a copy of what they wanted to do for Laurel-1 they still wouldn’t be the same character and it’s insulting to insist otherwise! This may not be the path they take but I REALLY hope they never have this scene where Dinah offers but if they do I hope Siren says no, just let Zoe take it after Dinah. Can you tell this “redemption” push stresses me out? Ha.

So yeah Dinah is now Cry less which again was a huge block arguably for Siren being on the team, the other for me is Siren owes these people nothing – they are not her friends from her Earth so why would she want to join their team even if she was into redemption…she could do it as a side thing at best she doesn’t have to suit up with them, the other major concern though was screen time because the last thing they needed was a repeat of Katie popping up an episode or two for a fight just to show Laurel was still around so to keep from backgrounding her again essentially you have William and Curtis who are potentially leaving which would create some screen time to expand on Siren which is great for trying to make the redemption seem believable even though again for me I don’t think it’ll ever be. I’m not saying they are being bumped for Siren in particular or even that Curtis will leave the show but if they do then it creates screen time they could use for her. At this point I just feel I should change my opening tag to #KeepBlackSirenAnAntihero because that’s the best I might get (I will not concede to anything more though) and I’m even weary they’ll do that. Show again you do not need another hero you need quality villains and anti heroes – you’re the darkest show currently on the roster for the superhero show’s embrace it; the comics aren’t sacred of anti heroes why should you be! This is probably a losing case I know Flash but as I said last week it’s the hill I’ll die on with “Arrow” because I just feel both Laurel and Siren deserve better than this which may come and so do their fans; if they want to give Siren more screen time great, if they want to put her on the team to do this “will they won’t they redeem her” dance ok but stop trying to make Siren Laurel already, they’re not the same person and will never be…let Siren be at the least the badass anti hero she could be…it’d be a nice callback to when we thought we’d see that with Dinah before she went more just good guy. Now to her credit Dinah was always more of a good guy where as Siren is more into the bad because it’s easier so that’s why I buy Dinah as a hero more than Siren but she start very anti hero so if anti hero is the only level Siren ever reaches on the hero ladder it would work for her more I think than just jumping straight to calling her a hero because she looks like Laurel who was one.

The last thing is we saw Zoe training with Dinah which was ADORABLE by the way but if we see Dinah trained Zoe why isn’t it possible Black Siren trained Black Star which could be another nod to Siren move into the group more again if they want to do the redemption dance. Someone had to train Maya and it doesn’t seem it was Oliver because he doesn’t seem to be around and if Oliver did train her why would she use it against Dinah? It’s like something happened and Felicity raised Maya mainly alone so as she got older maybe someone like Siren taught her to fight for protection and since there’s no love lost between she and Dinah it would fit why she’s okay beating up her friends for information. Ha. This is more of a long shot I know but it’s not impossible she trained her just like we see Zoe doing with Dinah, it would actually be a nice mirror of Dinah and Siren bickering that Zoe and Maya had that face off in the cave for a bit.

Speaking of Maya, Cammie are you enjoying being right? Congratulations to you ma’am on that perfect prediction!

On to the podcast comments though…

The horror genre vibe to me was definitely when the group entered the house because that just screamed horror movie, but outside of that if felt like a normal episode to me, yeah you can say it’s darker but it wasn’t so out of “Arrow” that I’d call it horror myself. Again the house was creepy but that was it for my person creep moment.

I have mixed feelings about Dinah getting her throat cut because on the one hand yes she was debatably distracted (y’all should have listened to Curtis and stuck together) so okay Stan got the drop on her and it fits him to attack her but on the other it’s like “Really, this is how she’s going to get the scar?”. To be fair an action fight where she’s hurt would have cliche also I admit but still add in the horror genre vibe and it felt kind of cliche still. I will say this regardless of how I feel about it with this one move Stan cemented the fact he was way more terrifying this season than Dragon could ever hope to be; Stan has had so little screen time in comparison but has been so much more memorable than the main bad guy of the last two seasons in Dragon! Again I’m very “Eh” to this outcome but I can certainly give the team this – they delivered on an awesome bad guy I could be scared of for once this season; sorry writers but too much has happened to ever make Dragon work when you have someone like Stan in the same season, Dragon just falls so short. Even if Dragon did something on this level I think it would be too little too late to buy him as a memorable opponent for the team, outside of him maybe being memorable as the worst villain to face the team, but again at least we had Stan and it paid off well for his arc but I’m left here more thinking about what’s to come and how that makes me feel and thus I can’t enjoy the scene because while fitting and it does answer the future throat question I’m just feeling “Was this this only/best option?”. Maybe it’s just me but this moment left me VERY conflicted.

Okay so I have a question: what is the plan for Dinah moving forward? I ask because right now all I can think of is her becoming the new background main like Laurel was in S4; everyone’s identities are known so it’s not like the cops have to try and find out who to arrest later and they’ve all be deputized so is Dinah just going to show up at the end saying “Thanks for bringing them in gang!”? Is she just going to be shown training Zoe for the future? The more I think about this the more I worry for Dinah and her screen time count moving forward; yes Quentin in the later seasons got more time with the group but that was because he was helping protect them and harassing Siren – the team is out now and Dinah doesn’t care about Siren so how is she going to stay on the team/helping them as just a cop in a world where again their identities are known and they’re deputized? It almost makes me wonder what’s the point of Dinah on next season, Flash my apologies now for this even coming up but help me see what she could do beyond say thanks at the end. Yes she’s still an amazing fighter but they have Oliver and Renee and Diggle still checking in plus Siren is no slouch either so is Dinah going to rotate with those not named Oliver to help fill needs at times because Diggle does split time at Argus, if this is the case ok because as I said she does have her fighting skills still to use in the field but if they’re going to have Diggle back more because Argus is going to the background again after this season then what is Dinah bringing to the team that they don’t have already? You want team members to have something unique to them so they stand out in a group so if everyone is a fighter except Siren who also has actual powers then what makes Dinah stand out if they’re not going to touch on her anti hero views at times because those now go to Siren, #KeepBlackSirenAnAntiHeroAtLeast!; Renee, Diggle, and Dinah all also have been known to use firearms so again what separates them? You can’t say cop anymore for her because that’s not an asset they need really it seems with again the deputization and outting of identities so what’s next for her?

The more I think about these little things and how they can affect bigger aspects of the show the more I don’t like this episode. It’s not bad in acting or paying off Stan but just in terms of what it means going forward the events of this episode don’t get me excited. Except for baby Maya because how can you not get excited by her if you’re an Olicity fan.

I’m definitely excited to see what Beth does when not saddled with Dragon in terms of villains! My only ask is can we keep Black Siren an anti hero like Huntress at the least where yes she will help the team but she will also mess some members up to get information she needs please?! Quality anti heroes are SO hard to come by on these shows and again if they don’t want Siren to be a villain anymore okay I will work with that somehow but she doesn’t need to be a hero either – there’s enough in the group and on the shows in general so let’s do something new with her okay? Keep her sassy and shady and stop pushing Laurel’s biography on her; they’ll never be the same and that’s ok, it gives weight to what happen to Laurel instead of making her and Siren feel interchangeable can we agree on that please writers? That is honestly my only concern going into next season, well again I wonder how they’ll handle Dinah but she’s had time at least as an individual so I just want that for Siren…quality Black Siren is all I ask for – just a nice quality anti hero who is good with being an anti hero. Okay I’ll step off my Black Siren hype train for a bit and again go back to saying I’m excited for a full season of Beth and company’s work as it will be as you said their first season full of their plots not things they hand to deal with before they can really get to their own ideas. I’m a bit cautious but excited too the way Cammie put it with the fresh spin hype.

The cave fight was AWESOME! I loved Black Star going “Really?” to JJ for basically turning his back on Roy and Dinah because logic, don’t leave the enemy unguarded JJ, and just the variety of moves and how they used each person was great…everyone had something to do so it was just a lot of fun and is one of my favorite fights from this season! I will also be the person who raises their hand to admit I went “Now kiss!” when Zoe and Maya were face to face; doing rough math because they haven’t said an age for her yet that I remember yes Zoe is like 10 years older than Maya which may be too much for some but as long as Maya is at least 18 thus legally an adult in the future because the actresses are close in age (they’re 5 years apart) I was like “I’d ship you!”. True it could just be I want another queer character on this show so bad I’m looking at all options hoping one shows up, bisexual Black Siren who has equal amounts of male and female relationships for top choice, but I totally went “Kiss!” in their moment. You can have more than two queer characters at a time on a show writers I’m just saying!

For me it’s more surprising how fast William is leaving because as Flash said we just got him back but the fact he is leaving I can’t say I’m that surprised only because he’s a child actor so they don’t have much screen time anyways and it’s kind of like what do you do with him outside of family scenes, note I count family scenes as Felicity teaching him to hack; even Zoe just has training with Dinah so because he’s a kid I don’t find his exit as surprising as Curtis’s because Echo ideally could have stayed on as long as he wanted so maybe it is they want to have Curtis leave a bit to retool him or because Echo wanted to do something else with the time. I do love that Curtis is getting to leave unharmed as it were physically and that it’s by his choice because that’s a refreshing exit on how shows handle character exits in action series, I wish this wasn’t the first time it was happening on “Arrow” (Laurel should have been able to retire instead of being killed off!) but still I like that he’s leaving by his own choice alive to show retirement is okay for heroes and being a hero isn’t the only thing to your life if you don’t want it to be. No one can take away Curtis’s contributions so if he’s happy to take time for him then do it I say, no one said being a hero had to be your only thing ever. Let this be a lesson to Oliver if he wants to put down the bow at some point for time with the family then Emiko can stand in just fine.

Stan is definitely not the big bad of the season, he might come back next season but I wouldn’t be surprised if this is his last episode for a bit; they have the whole Dante thing to do with Argus and of course they still have to, hopefully, finish Diaz this season (so we can be done with him) so I don’t think Stan is going to replace them.

Zoe training with Dinah was awesome!

Oh Cammie, sweet sweet Cammie you know just want to say to warm my heart – yes to enhanced abilities via chips for Black Star if they want to say she has super strength because that would actually tie back to the chip in Felicity and how it helps her do things she otherwise couldn’t because never forget Felicity needs the chip to walk! It’s perfectly believable in the comic book world that maybe Maya upgraded the chip someway to increase her abilities; I’ve often wanted to see an episode in which someone hacked Felicity’s chip to have her act the way they wanted for whatever reason so maybe this could be like a next step. I just want the chip to not be forgotten is that too much to ask? This is “Arrow” so it wouldn’t surprise me if the move was just exaggerated for effect Flash, they’ve never been known for their realism in fights for a lot of years at least to me – they have CERTAINLY gotten more realistic this season but every now and then hyped up moves still enter a fight, but if they went chip I wouldn’t hate that either.

I’m with Cammie, bring on the multiple possible futures because then you can do everything until you have to set an event in stone. Also with as many crossovers as they do if you say everything is connected then every future scene should be different because if you say X effected Y here because it’s all connected then A doing even some little thing to B should change it because things are connected; maybe they’re not all drastic changes such as the way someone looks physically or someone’s mind set but maybe their costume is different or the location they’re in for a future future look is different. It’s just a lot to keep up with and these shows have enough continuity of their own to worry with so I think keeping things all fair until they have to commit is best.

AH HOW DARE YOU FLASH! Don’t you ever say Maya is Renee! I thought I was going to disagree with Cammie over her being Diggle but sir you just went too far! You’re both missing the obvious answer I feel, she’s the new Black Siren…she’s only a few letters off now. Ha. Zoe is clearly Black Canary and I agree William is so Felicity; legacy wise it just feels if someone is going to be the next Arrow it would be Maya now but if they stick to JJ being him ok too but as you said we need to see more on him to really know who he might be, he may be more Roy or Thea even than Oliver in the long run despite his choice of suit.

We all feared for Flash when Dinah went down. I wouldn’t be surprised if many watching live went “Dinah! Flash!”. Ha. I agree Justina it was fun seeing mom Felicity and Oliver trying; I especially loved this week how Oliver made sure to include Felicity when he was talking to William’s grandparents as one of his parents because a lot of times you see step parents/people who are helping raise the kid getting ignored in discussions about kids with some people so it was really great to see from him and was just another sign to me of his growth so I personally loved him talking about mom Felicity to them.

“They redeemed her, she became useless.” – ha, let’s hope not Cammie; they can still anti hero her but yeah if they go full redemption it’s going to take Siren down in intrigue level I feel just because real talk heroes are predictable which is what mastermind bad guys use to take advantage of them but if she stays an anti hero you have some guessing with her which keeps things interesting. No full on redeeming Black Siren!

I agree Christy you can’t fault William too much for wanting out because as much as Oliver tries what they do isn’t an easy life.

Every timeline is the true timeline to someone Flash.

Lol Cammie there’s no way this group follows Renee so him being the next leader of the group just makes me laugh; I mean you could force them via “because plot” but no fan is buying Dinah, Siren, Felicity, or Diggle listening to Renee’s lead – his suggestions maybe his direction no, they’ve seen him in combat.

NO, what?! I know you love Dinah but did the sun bake your brain while you were gone Flash because if you redeem Siren fully and take her cry she is as Cammie said pointless; you can have any random person be the DA now it wouldn’t have to be her as again everyone is out so you don’t have to bribe anyone to keep their involvement secret. Her only thing would be because she looks like Laurel which isn’t enough to keep someone around you essentially aren’t using. I love Dinah too and want her to have her Cry still (clearly it won’t be the same because of scar tissue) but let’s not punish Siren for Stan’s actions okay?

I agree Kev, as much as I love “Supergirl” I do get kind of tired of hearing the same monologue every season yes like “Arrow” they edited it some this season even though KARA NEVER WORKED FOR THE DEO IT WAS ONLY WITH BECAUSE OF ALEX but still; as Flash said it does help fans catch up if they missed some episodes maybe and yeah it kind of nods to the start of some comics where you have a catch up summary but still as you say after S1 it would be cool to have a theme song/video pack for the actors names…it might take up more time than the intro monologue for some but I can’t see it being that much time – just cut a few fight shots short and you’ll make up the time since there are plenty of those each season (never cut from character moments). I feel it’s too late to go there now as it’s been multiple seasons for the shows so it’s like their thing but yeah I do wonder what some actual actor name opening credits would look like for these shows. I will say though if anyone creates them as a fan project PLEASE DON’T use “Smallville”‘s theme to do “Supergirl”‘s, Kara is her own person not everything has to link to something her cousin has done thank you! Laurel-2 is not a Canary Kev.

I’m wondering how much of this future storyline will even be relevant after this season and certainly the mega crossover to come, heck will Dinah’s scar and Felicity being pregnant even hold after it or will they walk those back because of some change in the mega crossover? If they hold will Dinah’s voice status change such as if she doesn’t have the Cry here she’ll get it back post crossover but again not at full strength because if scar tissue? Will Maya and William grow up together then even if Oliver isn’t around because of whatever deal he made with Monitor? Will this whole future actually stay the same regardless of the events? I feel if they do something as major as Crisis it has to effect more than the Earths potentially merging; again kept Barry’s time traveling effects away from National City please unless we ask for his help!

I have to say if William does return to Olicity I hope it’s not because his grandparents kicked him out for being gay or gave him such a hard time he felt he had to leave. Just let it be because he missed them. They could do a joint custody type deal even if he wanted to spend time with each!

I agree Vixen “Ew no; I’m gay and she’s my mom!” was a great moment.

Lol to Stormy saying we’ve been stuck without a great villain for two seasons because of Diaz. The family working together to take down Stan was good.