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I don't even know where to start. Again, you'll notice that you've decided to compare New York beaches to those from Virginia on south.

That's like saying "again I see you've decided to compare this ugly chick to those who are attractive."

Not sure how anyone could compare them, but to say that New York's beaches are not incredible is just false.

The water temperature off Montuak is currently 62 degrees. During the year it never tops 70. http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/catl.html. Off Savannah it's 82 degrees, and tops out in the mid 80s, and is over 70 for 6 months out of the year.

I would agree that you can do nice things in any city if you leave the city, but my point was that New York can offer all of the same things that the "suburbs" offer with a short commute out of the city, yet there is still the vibrancy of all the things that New York has the other cities don't have. That is the difference in my opinion.

"Short commute?" Aren't the Hamptons hundred miles away? And what does "vibrancy" mean? As far as I can tell, that and "energy" refers to the unending crowds of hipsters and foreigners that clog the NYC streets.

Living a 15 minute or 20 minute commute to the office doesn't present any QoL issues in my opinion. Perhaps my experiences in biglaw are unusual, but I've never felt compelled that I needed to get to the office in 5 minutes.

What places are an honest 15-20 minute commute from midtown east? That's like a 10 minute subway ride once you factor in walking time at both ends. Basically you're talking about union square area (expensive), upper west side (expensive), hells kitchen, and long island city (industrial pollution). The subways are just jam-packed with people, and the subway stations aren't air-conditioned. My commute is pretty short (30 minutes door to door) and is still the most excruciating part of my day.

Well New York is clearly not going to win a beach contest versus Savannah, but I'm not sure how many law students could actually obtain employment in Savannah. The point is that there are incredible beaches within an easy commute from NYC, a fact that escapes many people. The Hamptons are an excruciating 2-3 hour drive away, but there far closer beaches, which while not as "tony" as the Hamptons are equally nice, if not nicer - see Long Beach and anything on Fire Island.

You could probably live in many different parts of the city and only be 15-20 minutes away from Midtown East - both the E and M/V lines run from West to East (although slightly north of Grand Central, but there are many firms that are in the upper 40's. As do the 4, 5, and 6 lines. So we talking about Union Square, EV, Gramercy, Stuy Town/PCV, Hells Kitchen, Columbus Circle, UES and Spanish Harlem. Going to be closer to 20 minutes for several of those, but anything under a 30 minute commute anywhere in the entire USA is pretty good. Especially when that 15-30 minutes involves reading or listening to an iPod. The thing about Murray Hill/Kips Bay/Midtown East is that IT ISN'T THAT CHEAP. The UES is cheaper. East Village is cheaper. Even Hells Kitchen is probably cheaper.

quakeroats wrote:I love New York, but I wouldn't argue the beaches are incredible. What are your criteria for an incredible beach? I'd argue that proximity to the city is what's made the Hamptons.

Perhaps my standards are not as high (I'm from the Midwest). I am not saying they are on par with Caribbean beaches and beaches located near to the tropics, but they are still incredible beaches. White sand, clean, warm enough to go swimming once the season is in full swing.

Kronk wrote:Trees are a pretty big deal in my opinion, and NYC is by far the worst of any major city I've been to in that regard. I don't put "slightly better food" on par with trees.

Some people don't care about nature. To each their own. I just find it humorous that whenever you point out that New York is by far the least nature-friendly down in the USA, New Yorkers act like you just don't know where to look. Nope, I understand your geography, getting to anywhere nice is just that much harder in NYC.

I randomly came across this link in my website perusing today. It focuses on Midtown "oases".

NYC Law wrote:This all is beating a dead horse again...Different strokes.

If you're big on nature then NYC probably isn't for you.If you're apathetic to nature and are more into urban environments and culture, then NYC is probably for you.

/thread

Too much of a simplistic distinction. NYC doesn't have the market cornered on urban environments and culture. It's probably the best place in the world if your taste in urban environments runs towards turn of the century tenement living, but I'd say Chicago is a better fit for those with more modern tastes. It's not just "nature versus urban environment" it's "what kind of urban environment?" London and Tokyo are both urban environments, but NYC resembles the former (dirty, old, disorderly) a lot more than the latter (clean, orderly).

NYC housing comes in all stripes. There are very modern areas to the city - pretty much the entire downtwon Westside - Hells Kitchn, West Chelsea, Tribeca, Battery Park City that has some of the most modern buildings being built. You're going to pay through the nose to live in these areas (well maybe not Hells Kitchen). Much of Williamsburg/Greenpoint/Long Island City are being filled up with modern mid-highrise buildings as well, but those areas I would agree seem to lack the big city feel.

There are very modern areas in Manhattan, but they're not particularly affordable on a lawyer budget. FiDi/Battery Park City seems to be the best bet, but even Hells Kitchen is pushing $3k/mo for a 1 bedroom in a newish highrise. Most of the new construction off Manhattan is in the heavily polluted parts of Queens and Brooklyn. Elsewhere, you can't even find midrise+amenities construction in those boroughs (Streeteasy lists only 1 apartment in Astoria in the $2k-$3k range with a gym). In Chicago there are high-rises and mid-rises all along the river all the way up to and including in Evanston, 10 miles away from downtown.

Last edited by rayiner on Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rayiner wrote:There are very modern areas in Manhattan, but they're not particularly affordable on a lawyer budget. FiDi/Battery Park City seems to be the best bet, but even Hells Kitchen is pushing $3k/mo for a 1 bedroom in a newish highrise.

Somewhat agree. Housing is generally more expensive then when I moved to the city (2008) and is the biggest drawback to NYC in my opinion. Unfortunately, if you want a new building with amenities, you're going to be paying about $3k minimum anywhere in the city and I would imagine that figure rises to $4k if you want a nicer area. New buildings in Williamsburg are now charge almost $3k in certain buildings.

rayiner wrote:The parks are full of homeless people. The rivers are filthy and smell that way.

This is just...

...wrong?

I don't know how else to describe it.

NYC IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY, but it is for more people than many people realize. It's just frustrating to hear so many people shit on NYC while insisting on setting parameters for their lives that mean they're restricting themselves to the worst type of Midtown corporate drone existence.

Go 35 or 40 minutes away from the office instead of 30 and maybe you'd be happy.

Anyway, that's probably my last words on the matter, it is indeed a dead horse.

rayiner wrote:The parks are full of homeless people. The rivers are filthy and smell that way.

This is just...

...wrong?

I don't know how else to describe it.

NYC IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY, but it is for more people than many people realize. It's just frustrating to hear so many people shit on NYC while insisting on setting parameters for their lives that mean they're restricting themselves to the worst type of Midtown corporate drone existence.

Go 35 or 40 minutes away from the office instead of 30 and maybe you'd be happy.

Anyway, that's probably my last words on the matter, it is indeed a dead horse.

Dude. I'm here. I can see the homeless people and smell the rivers just as well as you.

Also, that "40 minute commute" turns to 45-50 minutes when you're honest about things (generally, take the train ride and add 15 minutes for a door-to-door time) and before you know it you're spending an hour and a half each day stuffed in a cattle car with 9 million other people and want to punch the f--king creative types who try to "follow the dream" by peddling their shit on the subway to busy people who just want to get home after work...

My *actual* commute from UWS near 96th to my office looks something like this:2 minutes to wait for and get down the elevator in my "charming" prewar building5 minutes to walk to the subway (only two blocks but waiting gotta wait to cross streets)8 minutes to times square2 minutes to walk to the S3 minutes on the S2 minutes to subway into GCT2 minutes to walk through GCT and MetLife building3 minutes to walk from MetLife building to my lobby

That's best case (assuming train is waiting right there). On average it's a half-hour commute, but note that it includes only about 13 minutes of actual time on the train or transferring.

GCT to Nevins is by itself an 18 minute trip (assuming you don't get stuck in train traffic), and you're spending the entire time standing up in a very packed car. The nicer buildings in that area are a bit further from the Nevins stop then where I am (again, I live only two short blocks from the subway), so add another 5 minutes there.

Maybe 30 minutes versus 45 minutes doesn't sound like that big of a deal, but that's a legit half hour out of a working day in which you've probably only got a few hours of personal time to begin with. And you're filling it with (and studies show this) literally the most stressful thing you do all day.

Ray, if you live in Murray Hill, you can walk to the area around the MetLife building. Then you don't have to deal with Grand Central ever. Of course, you have to live in Murray Hill, which I don't know if you'd like (the area is significantly younger than the UWS, and there are a lot of "rich kids, just out of undergrad, with their first apartment in the city" types).

Obviously the invisible hand of the free market is quietly whispering "Why pay 2-3K for a 'meh' place when you can pay 4-5K for a freaking penthouse." I've found some pretty ridiculous places for on the order of 15K / 3 bedrooms / 3 baths. I bet we could easily fit 6+ people in there and live like kings.

I work in the GCT area and have a 1 hour commute from CT door to door. It's not a BFD for me, but could be for some people. I work on the train and I don't see having an extra hour a day to myself offsetting the benefits of having a ridiculously huge house for the same price as a foot locker in MFH.

Your typical white girl isn't any prettier, there are just more very skinny ones (if that's your thing). I will say that it's one of the few places (in the US) to find hot ethnic girls (Jewish, Indian, etc) because it's got a critical mass of those populations to begin with.

I don't think Jewish girls are considered ethnic, unless they look middle-eastern-ish.

also, to jump on the nyc love bandwagon. i'm guessing that most of the people in this thread have spent little to no time in NYC. Yes, NYC can be dirty, smell and lacking in green space; however, you can find clean areas and spaces if you know where to look and choose to spend a bit more on your housing. There are parks everywhere in the city. They aren't huge parks, but if you live anywhere on the UES or UWS, you are likely within walking distance/bus ride of central park, which is a great oasis. Living further downtown? Check out the area by Chelsea Piers, again - fairly large swaths of green grass, on the waterfront, etc. There is biking along the entire Westside. You want to live in Gramercy or East Village, check out the parks in Stuyvesant Town/Peter Cooper Village. And this is just Manhattan. I imagine it is the same in Brooklyn - McCarren Park, etc.

Further, NYC is an hour train ride from great hiking and incredible beaches. Take a few hours on Saturday and take the train up to Westchester to go golfing. Or go hiking at Bear Mountain. Or take the train to Long Beach for a great white sand beach. Or take the train to Montauk for the weekend. Newbies to NYC generally FAIL TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THESE GREAT OPPORTUNITIES.

And while housing is expensive, no one needs $20,000 to move into an apartment. First and security + brokers is about 7500 on a $2500 apt. If you are working in biglaw, you aren't going to be considered a credit risk (unless you're looking at tony buildings) and I'd be shocked if most people had to pay more than first and security + broker. You can omit a broker's fee by renting in a large highrise, but then you generally have higher rents (albeit with amenities). And what is the obsession with Murray Hill/Kips Bay/Midtown East...why would any 1st year associate even consider living in that area?

The parks are full of homeless people. The rivers are filthy and smell that way. Sure you can do nice things in any city if you leave the city. There are no "incredible beaches" on the east coast north of Virginia.

As for Murray Hill/Kips Bay/Midtown East -- if you work at any of the dozens of law firms in midtown east, there is a huge QoL benefit of living near work. Although on a related note my QoL has gone up several fold since I realized that if you take the S into Grand Central Station from the west side instead of the 7, you can exit through the MetLife building and minimize the amount of time you spend in the filthiest parts of the station.

Re: the things about NYC: "...incredible restaurants, architecture, theater, music, art, fashion, proximity to great beaches, etc." Nobody gives a shit about theater, art, or fashion. NYC isn't particularly known for its music scene, nor its architecture (unless you consider acres of run-down brownstones to be interesting architecture). So that leaves restaurants and lounges, which is really the only thing your average biglaw associate would care about. There is no doubt NYC has more and better night-life than any other major US city. Especially if you're ADD and need to try a different place every week. The question is whether the night life is worth the trade-offs in cleanliness, commute, housing options, and cost. For me I don't think it would be worth it all else being equal, but it certainly makes the rest of the city more tolerable.

And yeah plenty of people care about art, theater and fashion.[/quote]

NYC isn't know for its music scene in the same way as say, Nashville is known for its music scene. It's got a good music scene, but so do a bunch of other big cities. And what associates at law firms care about arts, theater or fashion? That's so irrelevant to your average lawyer who spends most of his waking hours at work. And its not like other cities don't have arts or theater. How relevant is the extra X% better that the Met might be than the equivalent in Chicago or DC to someone who might get a chance to go see a performance once or twice a year?

NYC isn't know for its music scene in the same way as say, Nashville is known for its music scene. It's got a good music scene, but so do a bunch of other big cities. And what associates at law firms care about arts, theater or fashion? That's so irrelevant to your average lawyer who spends most of his waking hours at work. And its not like other cities don't have arts or theater. How relevant is the extra X% better that the Met might be than the equivalent in Chicago or DC to someone who might get a chance to go see a performance once or twice a year?[/quote]

You got this pegged pretty wrong. Even at my brutal fucking sweatshop everyone gets to see their share of shows and people are pretty into the arts scene across the board.

NYC isn't know for its music scene in the same way as say, Nashville is known for its music scene. It's got a good music scene, but so do a bunch of other big cities. And what associates at law firms care about arts, theater or fashion? That's so irrelevant to your average lawyer who spends most of his waking hours at work. And its not like other cities don't have arts or theater. How relevant is the extra X% better that the Met might be than the equivalent in Chicago or DC to someone who might get a chance to go see a performance once or twice a year?

You got this pegged pretty wrong. Even at my brutal fucking sweatshop everyone gets to see their share of shows and people are pretty into the arts scene across the board.[/quote]

I haven't encountered a single guy being interested in anything other then getting drunk in Washington Square Park, but maybe that just gives away the crowd I hang with.

NYC isn't know for its music scene in the same way as say, Nashville is known for its music scene. It's got a good music scene, but so do a bunch of other big cities. And what associates at law firms care about arts, theater or fashion? That's so irrelevant to your average lawyer who spends most of his waking hours at work. And its not like other cities don't have arts or theater. How relevant is the extra X% better that the Met might be than the equivalent in Chicago or DC to someone who might get a chance to go see a performance once or twice a year?

You got this pegged pretty wrong. Even at my brutal fucking sweatshop everyone gets to see their share of shows and people are pretty into the arts scene across the board.

I haven't encountered a single guy being interested in anything other then getting drunk in Washington Square Park, but maybe that just gives away the crowd I hang with.

The male partners I worked with in NY were certainly more refined than the male associates I came across, but I found myself discussing dance, theater and opera as often with the men of BigLaw as I did with the women.

I once bought a pair of opera tickets off a male partner (he's a season ticket holder and couldn't go that night), and after that, we'd chat about opera every time we saw each other. Another [male] partner I worked with was on the board for half a dozen small dance and theatre companies.

NYC isn't know for its music scene in the same way as say, Nashville is known for its music scene. It's got a good music scene, but so do a bunch of other big cities. And what associates at law firms care about arts, theater or fashion? That's so irrelevant to your average lawyer who spends most of his waking hours at work. And its not like other cities don't have arts or theater. How relevant is the extra X% better that the Met might be than the equivalent in Chicago or DC to someone who might get a chance to go see a performance once or twice a year?[/quote]

New York is the birthplace of Hip Hop, Punk and a bunch of other genres/subgenres. New York is not known for music the way that Nashville is because Nashville is solely known for music. If a city similar in size to Nashville had the music scene of NY it would be considered the music mecca of the country. I mean, just look at this show calendar http://www.ohmyrockness.com/showlist.cfm , no other city country come close to having the amount of live shows as NYC.

Anyway, I'm a New Yorker, but I'm from Brooklyn and I've never lived in Manhattan, and don't really have any desire to ever do so, so I'm not unsympathetic to a lot of the complaints here. But as others have said, a lot of them Manhattan-specific, and you can get all/most of the benefits of living in NYC without a lot of the drawbacks by living in an outer borough.

goodolgil wrote:Anyway, I'm a New Yorker, but I'm from Brooklyn and I've never lived in Manhattan, and don't really have any desire to ever do so, so I'm not unsympathetic to a lot of the complaints here. But as others have said, a lot of them Manhattan-specific, and you can get all/most of the benefits of living in NYC without a lot of the drawbacks by living in an outer borough.

While this might be true generally, it's less applicable ITT because nearly all law firm offices are in Manhattan.

goodolgil wrote:Anyway, I'm a New Yorker, but I'm from Brooklyn and I've never lived in Manhattan, and don't really have any desire to ever do so, so I'm not unsympathetic to a lot of the complaints here. But as others have said, a lot of them Manhattan-specific, and you can get all/most of the benefits of living in NYC without a lot of the drawbacks by living in an outer borough.

While this might be true generally, it's less applicable ITT because nearly all law firm offices are in Manhattan.

Yes, but there are plenty of places in Brooklyn or Queens that are closer to Midtown than certain places in Manhattan.

It takes about the same time to commute from Brooklyn Heights to Midtown East (half an hour) as it does from the Upper West Side to Midtown East. Midtown is about 15 minutes away from Astoria and Long Island City).

Most of the partners and a fair number of the associates at my summer firm don't live in Manhattan.

goodolgil wrote:Anyway, I'm a New Yorker, but I'm from Brooklyn and I've never lived in Manhattan, and don't really have any desire to ever do so, so I'm not unsympathetic to a lot of the complaints here. But as others have said, a lot of them Manhattan-specific, and you can get all/most of the benefits of living in NYC without a lot of the drawbacks by living in an outer borough.

While this might be true generally, it's less applicable ITT because nearly all law firm offices are in Manhattan.

Yes, but there are plenty of places in Brooklyn or Queens that are closer to Midtown than certain places in Manhattan.

It takes about the same time to commute from Brooklyn Heights to Midtown East (half an hour) as it does from the Upper West Side to Midtown East. Midtown is about 15 minutes away from Astoria and Long Island City).

Most of the partners and a fair number of the associates at my summer firm don't live in Manhattan.

15 minutes? It takes half that just from the time the 7 stops at GCT (on the lower platform) to fight through the crowd and get to an exit. LIC is the only realistic place in Queens an honest 30 minute commute to an office by GCT. Plus, the subway stops in Astoria are pretty sparse, so most apartments aren't anywhere close to a stop. Same is true for Brooklyn Heights, most of the nice new places are a good 10 minute walk from either Borough Hall or Nevins.

I've actually spent my weekends timing this, and I've found that commute times to my office are about:

Some of these commutes are more excruciating then others. The commute from Exchange Place is gut-wrenching, because you have to transfer from the PATH to the Wall Street station. The commute from UWS is painful because people like to sell things loudly on the S shuttle. The commute from Roosevelt Island is actually quite peaceful. The subway station is relatively clean (like DC), and you take it to 63'rd/Lex and just take a bus straight down. Being above ground is so much more pleasant, and the bus-es aren't crowded. Alphabet City is also a nice commute (no subway).