With women, Matthews administers the "Chris Matthews test"

A Media Matters for America review of MSNBC host Chris Matthews' commentary has found a history of degrading comments about women, in which he focuses on the physical appearances of his female guests and other women discussed on his show.

As Media Matters for America has extensively documented, MSNBC host Chris Matthews has a history of making degrading comments about women, particularly Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (NY). A Media Matters review of Matthews' MSNBC commentary found that, in particular, Matthews frequently comments on the physical appearances of his female guests and of other women discussed on his program. Matthews' comments are not restricted to female politicians or public officials; he runs the gamut, commenting on the appearance of female models, actors, journalists, authors, and others.

Female guests

While interviewing Elizabeth Edwards, wife of Democratic presidential candidate and former Sen. John Edwards (NC), during the January 4, 2008, edition of Hardball, Matthews said to Edwards: "You've got a great face, Elizabeth. I love your smile ... I'm sorry. I don't want to patronize you. You're great."

On the September 12, 2007, edition of Hardball, Matthews began an interview with right-wing radio host Laura Ingraham by stating: "You are -- I'm not allowed to say this, but I'll say it -- you're beautiful and you're smart. And you've got a huge radio audience." When the interview ended, Matthews asked: "Can I sing your praises?" adding, "I get in trouble for this, but you're great looking, obviously. You're one of the gods' gifts to men in this country. But also, you are a hell of a writer."

On the August 10, 2007, edition of Hardball, during a discussion of financial news, Matthews told CNBC's Erin Burnett, "[Y]ou're beautiful," and "[y]ou're a knockout," before closing the interview by saying, "It's all right getting bad news from you." Matthews also asked Burnett: "Could you get a little closer to the camera?" Burnett replied, "My -- what is it?" Matthews then said: "Come on in closer. No, come in -- come in further -- come in closer. Really close." After Burnett began to comply, Matthews stated, "Just kidding! You look great! Anyway, thanks, Erin, it's great to -- look at that look. You're great." As Media Matters has noted, following the Burnett incident, according to a "Page Six" article in the New York Post, Matthews "told Page Six he was only fooling around with Burnett because the camera lens had already made her appear closer than usual. 'It was this weird fishbowl look. ... I was just kidding around.' "

As the Daily Howler blog noted following the Burnett incident, "[T]his very same sort of thing occurred on a Friday afternoon in late March," also during Hardball. According to Daily Howler, "[A]fter CNBC's Margaret Brennan delivered a financial update, Matthews blurted out praise for her youthful beauty, as he would later do with Burnett." From the Daily Howler:

MATTHEWS (3/23/07): OK, it's Friday afternoon, OK? But I have watched that economic bulletin there. But let me just tell you -- the next time the producer has to choose between a picture of more of Margaret Brennan and that oil derrick, that offshore oil derrick, stay on Margaret Brennan, OK?

(GROUP LAUGHTER -- ALL MEN)

MATTHEWS: She's a beautiful woman. She's a very bright reporter. She makes us feel good. I am sick of looking at that offshore oil drill. It drives me crazy. Bring back Margaret! Thank you, dear! Thank you! Back by popular demand! Happy Friday! And she's 6 feet tall, besides. You're gorgeous, and I hate that oil drill. I hate the oil drill. Do you want to comment on that?

BRENNAN: More of the oil boards? Hey, well, you know, sure. More air time -- I'm not going to complain about. But I'd love to be more on your show there, Chris.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you, dear. You are on right now. Thanks for the -- held over by popular demand, dear. Thank you. Happy Friday. Anyway, Mike Barnicle, that was a -- that was -- I'd rather see her than you guys, anyway. Thank you. Mike Barnicle's coming on right now, and Ron Christie. [emphases in original]

On the July 24, 2007, edition of Hardball, Matthews hosted Amber Lee Ettinger, Taryn Southern, and Adolina Kristina, stars of the online videos "I Got a Crush ... on Obama," "Hott 4 Hill," and "I Got a Crush ... on Giuliani," respectively. Matthews opened the interview by describing Ettinger, Southern, and Kristina as "these gorgeous creatures of god." During the discussion, Matthews said to Southern: "You're giving me the peepers. I can tell ...You are doing it. You are flashing your incredible eyebrows at me. Look at that. It's awful what you're doing." Matthews described each of the women as "great looking," and later said to Ettinger: "[B]e careful with the advances you are making with your eyes right now. I'm not a casting agent." Southern had previously been a guest on the July 16 edition of Hardball, where Matthews described her as a "cutie-pie."

During MSNBC's April 26, 2007, coverage of the first Democratic presidential candidates debate, Matthews discussed the "cosmetics" of the evening. In doing so, he commented on the appearances of Clinton and Michelle Obama, complimenting her pearl necklace and declaring that she "looked perfect," "well-turned out ... attractive -- classy, as we used to say. Like Frank Sinatra, 'classy.' " Matthews said: "Some people are, by the way, just watching tonight. They stopped listening a half-hour in, and they noticed how pretty she is -- Michelle -- and they said, 'I like the fact he's [Obama] got this pretty wife. He's happily married. I like that.' They like the fact that Hillary was demure, lady-like in her appearance." When NBC chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell interjected, noting, "You're talking about two ... lawyers," who went to "Harvard and Yale," Matthews responded, "Cosmetics are a part of this game."

During the February 1, 2007, edition of Hardball, while interviewing Lisa Caputo, Citigroup chief marketing officer and press secretary to then-first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, Matthews concluded the interview by stating: "You are looking great, by the way ... And I just came from the Miss America contest [where Matthews was a judge]. And you're -- you are up there."

On the April 15, 2005, edition of Hardball, Matthews interviewed actor and activist Jane Fonda about her book, My Life So Far (Random House, 2005). During the discussion, Matthews referenced an interview Fonda once did with former CBS News anchor Edward R. Murrow and stated: "Now, I remember you being interviewed by Edward R. Murrow, OK? That's all. You were in an apartment in New York. You looked like a million bucks. You still do." Concluding the interview, Matthews told Fonda: "And you also dazzle us with your ... beauty and all the good things."

During the May 21, 2004, edition of Hardball, Matthews hosted Janet Langhart Cohen, wife of former Defense Secretary William Cohen. During the interview, Matthews said to Cohen: "Well, you're a very attractive woman, obviously. And you're very successful and you're well married and all those good things."

During an August 2, 1999, interview with Gennifer Flowers, Matthews stated to Flowers: "I gotta pay a little tribute here. You're a very beautiful woman, and I -- and I have to tell you, he knows that, you know that, and everybody watching knows that; Hillary Clinton knows that. How can a woman put up with a relationship between her husband and somebody, anybody, but especially somebody like you that's a knockout? I don't quite get this relationship." After Flowers replied, "Gosh, you make me blush here," Matthews added: "[I]t's an objective statement, Gennifer. I'm not flirting."

Female non-guests

During a March 31, 2004, Hardball discussion with former White House anti-terror adviser Richard Clarke of then-national security adviser and current Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice, Matthews stated that Rice is a "very attractive woman, very likable woman, almost, if she weren't so smart, Miss Congeniality."

During a November 14, 2000, Hardball discussion of the 2000 Florida presidential election recount, Matthews described then-Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris to former Sen. Alan Simpson (R-WY) as "that very attractive woman we've been watching the last couple days."

On the February 9, 2001, broadcast of Hardball, Matthews discussed the controversy over former President Bill Clinton's pardon of financier Marc Rich and remarked that his wife, Denise Rich, is a "very attractive, wealthy woman." After USA Today reporter Tom Squitieri stated that "it'll be interesting to see what happens if [Congress] grant[s] immunity to Denise Rich. You know, they tried that once before with Susan McDougal, you know, giving her immunity from testifying," Matthews asked if Squitieri is "focused once again on the prospect of another one of those sexy perp walks ... by seeing great-looking woman in shackles."

On the January 19, 2001, edition of Hardball, during President Bush's inauguration ceremonies, Matthews commented that "for a straight arrow crowd of sort of purities, I've never seen so many sexy babes on the stage over at the Lincoln memorial here." Matthews continued that "I don't know even know them, who they are, but they're unbelievable."

On both the August 30, 2004, and May 31, 2001, editions of Hardball, Matthews commented on the physical appearances of Jenna and Barbara Bush, President Bush's twin daughters, by stating that they are "very attractive." Also, on the November 1, 2004, edition of Hardball, Matthews asked an unidentified male student, and self-described "journalist" with the "Scholastic Kids Press Corps," "[W]hat do you think of [the Bush twins] sort of in terms of boy-girl stuff?" After he appeared to hesitate, Matthews continued: "Would you put them high on the girl ticket if you were a boy?"

As Daily Howler editor Bob Somerby noted, on the November 4, 1999, edition of Hardball, then on CNBC, Matthews discussed feminist author Naomi Wolf's purported role in Vice President Al Gore's presidential campaign, and referred to Wolf as "that woman with all the hair." Matthews' guest, actress Morgan Fairchild, responded: "Well now, I don't want to hear anything about big hair. Come on."

From the March 31, 2004, edition of MSNBC's Hardball:

MATTHEWS: Is this going to end up being one of those -- you say the glass was half empty, then she says the glass was half full. And this becomes a moot point and two weeks after front page pictures of her in the major news magazines, her this very attractive woman, very likable woman, almost, if she weren't so smart, Miss Congeniality.

She -- you can't win that argument, can you if it becomes half full-half empty? Because she can always say, "Hey, look, if I was at meetings that Richard wasn't at. So many times I was with the president he was not there. I can tell you what he can't tell you; I can win the argument."

CLARKE: I don't think it's about winning the argument.

From the June 9, 2006, edition of Hardball:

MATTHEWS: Do you find her [Ann Coulter] physically attractive, Tucker?

CARLSON: I'm not going to answer that, because the answer -- I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. That's not the point.

MATTHEWS: Positively.

COSBY: Don't ask me that question.

MATTHEWS: Mike, do you want to weigh in here as an older fellow. Do you find her to be a physically attractive woman?

BARNICLE: I'm too old to be doing that. I had enough fights in my life.

MATTHEWS: OK, Rita, do you find her to be a physically attractive woman?

COSBY: I`ll throw it back to you, Chris. Do you find her attractive?

MATTHEWS: You guys are all afraid to answer. No, I find her -- I wouldn`t put her -- well, she doesn`t pass the Chris Matthews test.

I'll be right back with much more. You're watching "Hardball Hotshots," only on Hardball, only on MSNBC.

From the February 9, 2001, edition of MSNBC's Hardball:

STUART TAYLOR (National Journal writer and columnist): I don't know enough about Denise Rich. She's apparently a well-connected Democrat and likes being in power circles. Maybe she gets a lot of her money from her husband, I just don't know that. In Bill Clinton's case, I think the motive is probably -- it may have some combination of gratify a campaign contributor, especially gratify a future contributor, perhaps, to the Clinton Library. We've been seeing him do this with a lot of people for a long time, and also --

MATTHEWS: I love that word.

TAYLOR: -- Jack --

MATTHEWS: Stuart, I love that word.

TAYLOR: Gratify?

MATTHEWS: Gratify. It's one of (inaudible)...

TAYLOR: Also, you know, do a favor for his former White House counsel, Jack Quinn, who did lots of favors for Clinton while Clinton was lying his way through his presidency.

[...]

MATTHEWS: I think you're very astute there, Stuart, with the argument that what Bill Clinton would do is not -- should not be judged in a snapshot. I do this, you do that. The way it works in politics is that it's always a flow. You have -- you establish a regular flow of communication with a very attractive, wealthy woman like Denise, and her ex, who has lots of money. You establish goodwill.

Over time you go back to them and ask for money. It's like in the movie "The Godfather," someday I'll call on you and ask you to do me a favor, and you'll do me a service, and I'll do you a service. Isn't that what it's like?

[...]

SQUITIERI: Chris, it'll be interesting to see what happens if they do grant immunity to Denise Rich. You know, they tried that once before with Susan McDougal, you know, giving her immunity from testifying, and she refused to testify and went to jail. I don't think, you know, that would happen with Denise Rich. But still, it'll -- it will be interesting. It'll be an interesting card to play and see what happens.

TAYLOR: Could I --

MATTHEWS: You guys are so --

TAYLOR: --. make one editorial point?

MATTHEWS: --. you're -- I know, I know, Tom, you are focused once again on the prospect of another one of those sexy perp walks --

SQUITIERI: Well, you know, I --

MATTHEWS: -- by seeing great-looking woman in shackles --

SQUITIERI: ... in the -- in the --

MATTHEWS: -- Bill Clinton's was the word "gratification" the right word, Stu?

SQUITIERI: I was just looking --

MATTHEWS: Stuart?

SQUITIERI: -- for you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, do you think that Chairman Burton, he hasn't had a great win-loss record in going after the Clintons. I think it's mostly losses. Do you think, watching him, Stuart, as an attorney and as a journalist, do you sense he knows where he's going? He said there early in the program in that long interview he was nice to give us that he has some stuff he can't share with us. Do you think he's going somewhere?

From the November 1, 2004, edition of MSNBC's Hardball:

MATTHEWS: Let's to go Michael.

CUTTA: Yes.

MATTHEWS: You got a picture here you want to show me here?

CUTTA: Yes. I have got a picture of the Bush twins. They came to my hometown.

MATTHEWS: OK. Here's the big question.

[laughter]

MATTHEWS: The Bush twins showed up at -- look, these girls, what are their names?

CUTTA: Jenna and Barbara.

MATTHEWS: Now, what do you think of them sort of in terms of boy-girl stuff?

[laughter]

CUTTA: Well, I --

MATTHEWS: Would you put them high on the girl ticket if you were a boy?

CUTTA: They're --

MATTHEWS: You don't to have look at them again. Make up their mind.

[crosstalk]

MATTHEWS: You're like looking at them again to see if they're fine.

[crosstalk, laughter]

CUTTA: They're going to help go to -- they`re going to help Ohio --

[crosstalk]

MATTHEWS: OK. Are they a credit to their age group or are they a little giddy?

CUTTA: I think so. I think they represent their demographic really well.

MATTHEWS: Boy, you're an intellectual.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Are you a sociologist? Their demographic.

CUTTA: No. I`m a journalist.

From the August 30, 2004, edition of MSNBC's Hardball:

MATTHEWS: Excuse me. A little cosmetic effort here right now. That's the Bush twins, very attractive young ladies. They're all graduates of college now. Both. And they are going to be active in this campaign.

From the May 31, 2001, edition of MSNBC's Hardball:

MATTHEWS: I want Julia to take over this, because you did that great interview with Vogue with Mrs. Laura--Mrs. Laura Bush, the president's wife, the first lady. This question of alcohol abuse by teen-agers--I guess everybody at this table has been part of it. I was certainly part of it. I had my problems with the law in my late teens, because if you drink underage, you get in trouble. These kids are the president's daughters, they're very attractive, they go out in public in Austin, everybody sees it. For all I know, this restaurant owner at this Mexican restaurant saw a chance to screw a Republican. I don't know what was going on, and he called the police, in a case you'd never call the police. Julia, what do you make of this?

From the January 19, 2001, edition of MSNBC's Hardball:

MATTHEWS: You know, for a straight-arrow crowd of sort of purities, I've never seen so many sexy babes on the stage over at the Lincoln Memorial here, one after an (ph). I don't know even know them, who they are, but they're unbelievable.

MATTHEWS: I don't have the time nor the inclination. But Sally, let me ask you about this whole thing about these events that happen. Now, people pay tons of money to get to these balls. They probably buy scalp tickets to get in. I know you can buy them. These balls, I went to one for Clinton, I guess, was the last time around, the real (unintelligible).

NAOMI WOLF (then-Al Gore adviser) [video clip from ABC's This Week]: As a professional woman, I make no apologies for earning a professional salary, and I don't believe any woman in America should have to apologize for that. In fact, I -- I wrote a book about it. Having said that, I am glad to -- I took a cut in pay to work for Al Gore. I'm taking another major cut in pay to continue working for him at a time when we're all tightening out belts, and, frankly, I'm not working for him for the money.

DEE DEE MYERS (former Clinton press secretary): Well, then what -

SQUITIERI: Well, then why's she talking about it?

MATTHEWS: You know, that sounds like -- that sounds like Monica Lewinsky talking.

SQUITIERI: Why is she talking about it?

MATTHEWS: That sounds like Valley girl talk. Nobody asked her about a right to make a living. That's like asking a bootlegger why do you--why do you bootleg? Well, you want to be a bootlegger. Don't tell me you're trying to make a living. Dee Dee, was that a reasonable grown-up person's response? "I -- I -- nobody's ever -- nobody should ever had to ex -- explain why they make a living in this country." The question is, "Are you in -- in charge of redecorating the vice president of the United States personality so he can get elected president?"

From the November 5, 1999, edition of Hardball:

MATTHEWS: Tish Durkin, what hurts worse: Al Gore's assault on his masculinity 'cause he's been caught hiring this -- I call her the political equivalent of Viagra, and --

TISH DURKIN (writer): Oh, please.

MATTHEWS: I mean, it is that. It's to make him seem like something he may not be. By the way, we elect the guy he was, not the guy he's pretending to me. So in the end, we get the guy before Naomi, not the guy after Naomi. I want to ask you what hurts more--most: the fact that G.W. looks like he doesn't have all his facts straight or that Al Gore doesn't have his gender straight?

MATTHEWS: Senator Simpson, this is a tough one for the secretary of state that very attractive woman we've been watching the last couple days. I mean, she's going to have to basically either fall on her sword and say, I'm not taking these ballots, even though they've been publicly counted if they go in Gore's direction, or accept them and bring about the defeat of her candidate, perhaps.

SIMPSON: Well, she's using the word "discretion," but this is a very different thing than the usual, and Doris -- and Dick Goodwin, I'd like to visit with him about these issues, because he really knows historical politics a la LBJ and is a marvelous man.

MATTHEWS: You mean the number of votes -

SIMPSON: (unintelligible)

MATTHEWS: -- in Landslide Lyndon -

SIMPSON: -- we won't go into that -

MATTHEWS: -- how many did he win -

SIMPSON: (unintelligible)

MATTHEWS: -- the Senate seat by 88 votes?

SIMPSON: We won't bring it up. But let me tell you, (unintelligible), how do you think the American people, when they know the Gore people have picked four big Democrat counties, all staffed by Democrat canvassing officials? Now, that has an odor, and I don't care how you ring it up, it does.

From the May 21, 2004, edition of Hardball:

JANET LANGHART COHEN (wife of former Defense Secretary William Cohen): She wouldn't perform unless the black soldiers could at least sit up front with the Nazi prisoners of war. And they fired her. They fired her. So the USO has changed.

[crosstalk]

MATTHEWS: So give me one sentence on the difference between how you grew up and how you're living now and the way people treat you and the way people react to you in the public.

COHEN: It's an American dream.

[crosstalk]

MATTHEWS: Is it good for everybody?

COHEN: Oh, no.

MATTHEWS: Well, you're a very attractive woman, obviously. And you're very successful and you're well married and all those good things. Is this the general change in condition or is it mainly a personal elevation or better off living now?

COHEN: Thank you for all the compliments, Chris. But only in America could you have sheer determination, a lot of good fortune, a great family and just make it. Hard work.

From the April 15, 2005, edition of Hardball:

MATTHEWS: Let's talk about your movies, because I'm a fan, OK?

FONDA: You are a movie fan.

MATTHEWS: No, I am a movie guy, as you discovered.

FONDA: I discovered that, yes.

MATTHEWS: Now, I remember you being interviewed by Edward R. Murrow, OK? That`s all. You were in an apartment in New York. You looked like a million bucks. You still do. Some kid in New York, a bunch of boxes and suitcases in some brand new apartment.

[crosstalk]

MATTHEWS: Here is the great Edward R. Murrow with the cigarette coming in by television to interview you. Do you remember that?

FONDA: I remember it because I have photographs of him interviewing me in an apartment that I had not even moved into yet. I can't even believe you saw that. I mean, that was, oh --

[...]

MATTHEWS: How many years on this?

FONDA: Five.

MATTHEWS: You wrote it. No ghost here, right?

FONDA: No.

MATTHEWS: You did it. Anyway, you deserve credit for this book.

FONDA: Thank you, Chris. I appreciate that.

MATTHEWS: Because I think you really did answer a lot of the questions people like me have about you. And you also dazzle us with your --

FONDA: Dazzle? Thank you.

MATTHEWS: -- beauty and all the good things. Up next, Senate Republican Leader Bill Frist takes on the Democrats, saying they're against the people of faith. We'll talk about that with MSNBC's Tucker Carlson and Lynn Sweet of the Chicago Sun-Times.

From the July 16, 2007 edition of Hardball:

MATTHEWS: So, you haven't heard from anybody about this -- this audition tape?

SOUTHERN: No. I have gotten -- I have gotten a lot of messages and e-mails complimenting the video.

MATTHEWS: Right.

SOUTHERN: And, you know, that's -- that`s great.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, you are a cutie-pie.

From the July 24, 2007, edition of Hardball:

MATTHEWS: Let me explain to the people out there. We're here with these gorgeous creatures of God here, "Obama Girl" Amber Lee Ettinger, "Hott For Hill" -- I guess that's Hillary Clinton's girl -- Taryn Southern -- that really is her name -- and "Giuliani Girl" Adolina Kristina, who we just saw in that.

[...]

MATTHEWS: Two million people watched this video with you on it?

KRISTINA: Well, it's me and Amber fighting.

[crosstalk]

ETTINGER: We're gangs. We have our little posses.

MATTHEWS: What do you figure that's all about? Do you figure it's guys because you're great looking? What do you think it's all about? Do you think it's really political people calling up, wanting to check in, or is it just novelty, or curiosity? What is it, Adolina?

[...]

MATTHEWS: There you all are together in real live television right now. Do you think this actually -- Do you dare suggest -- Taryn, you first. You're giving me the peepers. I can tell. What are you doing here?

SOUTHERN: Peepers?

MATTHEWS: You are doing it. You are flashing your incredible eyebrows at me. Look at that. It's awful what you`re doing. Look, do you think this will affect the elections? Doesn't it scare you if it does, Taryn?

SOUTHERN: At first I thought that just seems ludicrous that me shaking my booty in a bikini is going to impact the election. But I guess from a broader scale, we're getting young people more interested in politics. They're going on YouTube and they`re at least thinking about the election. I don't think we'll sway votes either way. I hope not. You shouldn't be -

MATTHEWS: Were you in any way, Adolina, encouraged by your beauty and participation and excitement and joy and spark -- encourage one mind to look up the position of any one of these candidate on any issue?

[...]

KRISTINA: Yes.

MATTHEWS: How so? Explain the transition from looking at you in one of these crazy ads taunting the -- you`re taunting the Obama Girl. How does that excite the voter into participation?

KRISTINA: Well, I think.

MATTHEWS: I feel like Larry King tonight. Why do I feel like Larry King doing this. So, do you watch yourself in the pictures?

KRISTINA: Yes, I did. I think that -- like you said, I don't know if it is going to sway the vote for the candidate. But I think that it definitely gets people interested. And with the lyrics that are in the song, it makes people go, what? Did that really happen? For me, I went and looked up Obama was born in Hawaii.

MATTHEWS: Amber, you're walking down the street. You're beautiful. But do people come up to you and say, "I've seen you in the video"?

ETTINGER: Yes.

MATTHEWS: What do they say?

ETTINGER: They'll be like, oh, Obama Girl! I'll be like, yes.

MATTHEWS: On site they recognize you.

ETTINGER: Yes, they do.

MATTHEWS: How many hits do these guys have? Like 20 hits to memorize your face?

ETTINGER: I don't know.

MATTHEWS: They must have watched it more than once.

[crosstalk]

ETTINGER: When we hear that they haven't seen it, we're like, "What do you mean you didn't see it?"

MATTHEWS: Right after this show is over -- we're on live television, believe it or not. So be careful with the advances you are making with your eyes right now. I'm not a casting agent. Look, here's what I'm thinking, after this show we're going to do something that we do here and we're going to put it on iPod so people can watch it -- what do you call it?

From the February 1, 2007, edition of Hardball:

MATTHEWS: He'll do that kick at the end, where you save your juice, and you use it at the very end, like he did last time. Anyway, thank you, Lisa Caputo.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Republican --

CAPUTO: Thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: You are looking great, by the way.

CAPUTO: Thanks.

MATTHEWS: And I just came from the Miss America contest. And you`re -- you are up there.

MATTHEWS: Well, Mrs. Clinton has offered herself up in a new role. For a long time she offered herself as the--as the new Mrs. R -- Eleanor Roosevelt. She channeled with her; she apparently talked to her. I'm just kidding here. But she has clearly tried to model herself after that great first lady-- liberal first lady of Franklin Roosevelt's. And now it seems like she's offering herself in a new role, as a kind of a person who's had a therapeutic role in life. Sh--her job is to take care of a--a delinquent, someone with psychological problems that she's had to fix or deal with or accept or maintain, or whatever you will, not as particularly a political partner, which was a role she offered up before. You know, for--you get two for the price of one. Now you get a nurse for the price of the patient, all right? What do you think about her offering herself as Nurse Ratched to -- to the cuckoo's nest here?

FLOWERS: Well, I think that what Hillary Clinton has done has been an enabler. She does not have to continue to put up with this and --

MATTHEWS: To what o -- to what purpose was she an enabler?

FLOWERS: She's -- she's been an enabler for years and years, long before he was the president of the United States, by saying -- b -- by not stopping him, by not saying, 'You have got to stop this cheating in our marriage or it will not continue.' As a result --

MATTHEWS: Well, you know, I got -- I gotta -- I gotta pay a little tribute here. You're a very beautiful woman, and I -- and I have to tell you, he knows that, you know that, and everybody watching knows that; Hillary Clinton knows that. How can a woman put up with a relationship between her husband and somebody, anybody, but especially somebody like you that's a knockout? I don't quite get this relationship.

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