If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Luke 18:10-14 KJV Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

heir,

In this passage, the publican received forgivenesss because he repented. If Jesus deemed him righteous, there would be no need for him to repent. No?

In this passage, the publican received forgivenesss because he repented. If Jesus deemed him righteous, there would be no need for him to repent. No?

Tom

Hi Tom,

I see you considered backing off of your comment that "Jesus slammed the publicans". At the very least, in the instance I quoted to ghost, the publican was set in contrast to the Pharisee who was bragging on himself and that he was not as bad as that publican (much like the sanctimonious fruit inspectors of our day who think they are not as bad as the man sitting next to them).

In response to your post...

Remember...

Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.

Romans 15:8 KJV Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

He was preaching the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:16-19 KJV And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

He came unto His own and His own received Him not.

John 1:11 KJV He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

"Repent" (change your mind about WHO Jesus Christ is) would be a part of the gospel of the kingdom. So of course we would see Jesus saying,

Mark 1:15 KJV And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I see you considered backing off of your comment that "Jesus slammed the publicans". At the very least, in the instance I quoted to ghost, the publican was set in contrast to the Pharisee who was bragging on himself and that he was not as bad as that publican (much like the sanctimonious fruit inspectors of our day who think they are not as bad as the man sitting next to them).

In response to your post...

Remember...

Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.

Romans 15:8 KJV Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

He was preaching the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:16-19 KJV And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

He came unto His own and His own received Him not.

John 1:11 KJV He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

"Repent" (change your mind about WHO Jesus Christ is) would be a part of the gospel of the kingdom. So of course we would see Jesus saying,

Mark 1:15 KJV And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

see ya around

heir,

I repent. "Slammed" was hyperbole. I just wanted to answer the question of what Bob calls the Republicans.

The rest of your post I agree with completely. Many Christians do not realize that Jesus came "only to the House of Israel."

Since Paul is our apostle (not Peter), I have to rely on what he wrote in Romans 10:9-10.

Tom

Romans 10:9-10 KJV is great, but there's no blood in it. In fact, for the longest time I thought this was the gospel and when I did I wasn't saved. I believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that God raised Him from the dead, but I never trusted that Christ died for my sins. I never trusted Him for salvation believing that I was forgiven all trespasses (Colossians 2:13 KJV). I was a lost believer. I still believed that there was something I could do to be cut off (I thought this applied to me-Romans 11:20-22 KJV).

Now, I'm saved. I know that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...for therein is the righteousness of God revealed.

Romans 1:16-17 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:21-22 KJV But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

God made Jesus Christ to be sin for us, who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

When I asked you how is one made righteous, I was looking to see if you would have told me to DO something. There's a whole lot of people out there calling themselves Christians who are perverting the gospel of Christ by adding requirements. Even telling someone to stop doing what they are doing or they are going to hell is a perversion of the gospel.

Galatians 1:8-9 KJV But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

=heir;2874012]Romans 10:9-10 KJV is great, but there's no blood in it. In fact, for the longest time I thought this was the gospel and when I did I wasn't saved. I believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that God raised Him from the dead, but I never trusted that Christ died for my sins. I never trusted Him for salvation believing that I was forgiven all trespasses (Colossians 2:13 KJV). I was a lost believer. I still believed that there was something I could do to be cut off (I thought this applied to me-Romans 11:20-22 KJV).

Now, I'm saved. I know that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...for therein is the righteousness of God revealed.

Romans 1:16-17 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:21-22 KJV But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

God made Jesus Christ to be sin for us, who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

When I asked you how is one made righteous, I was looking to see if you would have told me to DO something. There's a whole lot of people out there calling themselves Christians who are perverting the gospel of Christ by adding requirements. Even telling someone to stop doing what they are doing or they are going to hell is a perversion of the gospel.

Galatians 1:8-9 KJV But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

have a great day, Tom.

heir,

I don't disagree with any of the above. But consider that if you are sitting at the bed side of a man who may die at any second, there is no time to give a Bible lesson. Paul is pretty clear that "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED." If time is of the essence, I want keep in simple.

Within the last week, I met a young girl at the gym who was raised a Catholic. And, of course, she has been taught that Peter is her apostle. When Peter is your apostle (and not Paul), you automatically put yourself under law and works. (I was raised a Catholic--an Irish Catholic.) So initially, I used Romans 10:9-10 to witness to her (she may have a fatal car accident on the way home). I got her email address and followed up with more details. First I want her to know that she is mentioned in her Father's will; then I let her know what she is entitled to.

Incidently, when I meet new people (especially Catholics), I ask: "If you died right now, would you go to heaven or hell? If they answer: "I guess so or I hope so," I know they are not saved. If they answer that they will go to heaven, I ask why they think they are going to heaven. If they answer: "Well, I'm not really a bad person. After all, I've never killed anyone, etc.", then I know they are not saved. And I know I have to witness to them. I have never had a Catholic respond: "Yes, I'm going to heaven because I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and His sacrifice is more than sufficient to save me from my sins. I am washed in His blood." Not once.

Salvation

I was born and raised a Catholic—an Irish Catholic. I was baptized, studied under and was whooped by the nuns, received first Holy Communion, and was confirmed. From childhood to adulthood, I attended mass every Sunday; confessed my sins to a priest every Saturday night and prayed ten Hail Mary’s and five Our Father’s to be repentant); received communion every Sunday; refrained from eating meat on Friday; said the Rosary; lit candles to the saints; blessed myself with Holy Water entering and leaving the church; observed Ash Wednesday; observed Palm Sunday; kneeled, stood, and sat when told; did the Stations of the Cross; prayed to Mary; went to High Mass on Easter; observed All Saints Day. After all this, no priest, nun, or any Catholic could answer the question: “Are we going to heaven when we die? Not even the priest knew if he was saved. But every Sunday, the priest would preach that Jesus died to save us. So I reasoned that if He died to save us, why aren’t we saved? Of one thing the priest were sure: If you were a non-Catholic, you would burn in Hell. Why didn’t the priests know?

The simple answer is that the Catholic Church wrongly places itself under the authority of Peter. Peter was a Jew who was under the Covenant of Circumcision or the Law. Circumcision in the Bible is a synonym for law. So, there is the covenant of circumcision and the covenant of grace. To understand this better we must look to Abraham.

God made two covenants with Abraham. Under the first covenant in Genesis 15, God put Abraham to sleep. While asleep, Abraham could do nothing except believe. “And he believed God; and He counted it to him for righteousness (Gal. 3:6).” Fourteen years later, in Genesis 17, God commanded Abraham to circumcise. This is the second covenant.

The first covenant is the Covenant of grace which Paul would preach. Paul would also refer to it as the Gospel of unCircumcision (Gal. 2:7 & 9). The command to circumcise is the second covenant or the Gospel of Circumcision (works plus faith). The Gospel of Uncircumcision is justification by faith alone. The Apostle Paul would write of this in Romans 4:

“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of the circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.”

We are not under the authority of Peter. We are under the authority of Paul (through Christ). Paul is the “apostle to the Gentiles.” “… for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15). Paul writes that because of unbelief, God cut off the nation of Israel (Romans 11:20). When God cut off Israel, Peter, as a citizen of Israel, was cut off as well. Peter was saved and is with the Lord, but Israel’s promised kingdom is on hold. When God cut off Israel, He simultaneously grafted in the Gentiles. God bypassed Israel (His intended evangelical nation) and went directly to the Gentiles with the Apostle Paul. But God also did something different. He gave Paul the Gospel of Uncircumcision where salvation is by faith plus nothing. Paul explains this in Galatians.

Galatians 2:7-9 is proof positive that there were two covenants in effect in the last half of the Book of Acts:

“But on the contrary, when they [circumcision apostles at Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)] saw that the gospel for [OF] the uncircumcised had been committed to me [Paul], as the gospel for [OF] the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Peter and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the GRACE [GOSPEL] that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.” Gal. 2:7-9

Note: The KJV renders the passage in the most common manner, true to the usual function of the genitive case of these Greek nouns, “the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter.” The KJV translates these nouns as expected as genitives of description (describing the Gospel that was committed to each). Unexpectedly, the NKJV translates them as though they were indirect object genitives. Even if this unlikely translation were correct, WHICH IT IS NOT, the point remains: there is the Gospel for the Body and the Gospel for Israel, the former based on grace, the latter on circumcision [law].

What I am now about to tell you will seem too good to be true. You will say, “It just can’t be that simple.” But if you don’t believe me, then tear all of Paul’s letters out of the Bible.

“But what does it [the word] say? ‘The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart’ (that is, the word of faith which we preach); that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ [that Jesus Christ is God] and believe in your heart that God [the Father] has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:9-10).

When we make this prayer of faith, Paul writes:

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into the Body—whether Jews or Greeks [Gentiles], whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” 1 Cor. 12:13

Once in the Body of Christ, we are secure. We cannot lose our salvation!

“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee [down payment] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession [our bodies at the rapture] to the praise of His glory”. Eph. 1:13-14

“There is one Body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Eph. 4:4-6

After praying the prayer of salvation, your name is recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life. You are an heir. Imagine hearing that your rich uncle mentioned you in his will. You would immediately read the will to see what you are entitled to. When you pray this prayer, you are mentioned in God’s will--Paul’s writings. Read them carefully!

Now, when someone asks you, “If you died right now, would you go to heaven or hell?” you can confidently and joyfully answer, “Most assuredly. I have humbled myself before God and admitted I am a lost sinner. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I have accepted His sacrifice on the cross as more than sufficient payment for my sins—past, present, and future. I am washed in the blood of Christ. If I died with Him, I shall also live with Him forever. Oh Death, where is thy sting.”

I have humbled myself before God and admitted I am a lost sinner. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I have accepted His sacrifice on the cross as more than sufficient payment for my sins—past, present, and future. I am washed in the blood of Christ. If I died with Him, I shall also live with Him forever. Oh Death, where is thy sting.”

Tom

That's very good! Good news indeed!

Now, why wouldn't you just tell this to the dying man rather than Romans 10.

You can't confess the Lord Jesus, Romans 10, without understanding the facts laid out in Romans 1-8.

I don't disagree with any of the above. But consider that if you are sitting at the bed side of a man who may die at any second, there is no time to give a Bible lesson. Paul is pretty clear that "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED." If time is of the essence, I want keep in simple.

By all means, keep it simple. Since the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth I believe that is what they should hear. Something like, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved; believing that Christ died for your sins and that He was buried and rose again on the third day."

I do so appreciate your writing style and especially your testimony. You said a lot in your post and it would be difficult for me to address most of it in one post. I would, however like to respond to something you said and even though it's a bit long, the topic is so misunderstood the length seems warranted.

And then I would like to follow up and discuss the "covenant of grace" with you if you would like to take the time. Although I do see what you are trying to say, I also know that the fact that people like you and me could even be saved was unsearchable in the OT.

Here goes.

When God cut off Israel, He simultaneously grafted in the Gentiles.

Since the grafting in is spoken of in Romans 11 we need a little background on who these Romans were.

They had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world

Romans 1:7-8 KJV To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Paul longed to see them that he may impart to them some spiritual gift to the end they may be established

Romans 1:9-12 KJV For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; :12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

So these Romans had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world, but but it was not the mutual faith of both Paul and them. Paul longed to see them that he may impart unto them some spiritual gift to the end they may be established that he may be comforted together with them by the mutual faith both of them and him.

I believe the Romans' faith was this, the gospel of God, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord (the WHO of Jesus Christ) and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Romans 1:1-4 KJV Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; :4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

So what was the spiritual gift that Paul wanted to impart unto them that they may be established? It is Paul's "my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,..."

Romans 16:25-27 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

These Romans had never heard the gospel of Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

Romans 1:15-17 KJV So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

With this much ground to cover, on to the grafting in:

Romans 11:19-22 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This CANNOT be speaking of anyone in the Body of Christ for you CANNOT be CUT OFF! When you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting Him alone for your salvation; that He died for YOUR sins, was buried and rose again on the third day you are SEALED with that Holy Spirit of promise (the earnest of our inheritance) unto the day of redemption!

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 KJV And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
-----------------------

Notice there’s someone that Paul is focused on when he uses “thou” (which is singular in a King James Bible) and if you look back in Romans 2 you can see that this is someone that is “called a Jew”, rested in the law and made his boast of God:

Romans 2:17 KJV Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Before anyone might jump to the conclusion that Paul is actually talking to a Jew, please remember that Paul is speaking to Gentiles.

Romans 1:13 KJV Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

This person in Romans 2 is someone who was bragging on his standing in the olive tree, but the natural branches had been broken off, for Israel had fallen and unless he continued in the goodness of God, he was in danger of being broken off too.

Believing the gospel that Paul preached (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) was the only way to “continue in His goodness” and upon believing be baptized by the Holy Spirit into the one Body!

1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Now, why wouldn't you just tell this to the dying man rather than Romans 10.

Why should I omit Romans 10:9-10? It's word for word from Scripture?

You can't confess the Lord Jesus, Romans 10, without understanding the facts laid out in Romans 1-8.

When you say Romans 1-8, are you referring to "verses" 1-8 of Romans 10?

If time matters, I simply want to make it simple. Our salvation by grace is faith plus nothing. Of course, I have nothing against anything you or heir are saying. Heir seemed to imply that "confessing with the mouth and believing in the heart" is insufficient in that it doesn't have the blood in it. But Paul does say that if you make this confession and believe in your heart, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

Jesus did not exactly elaborate to the theif on the Cross, yet Jesus saved him simply by faith. Peter, in Acts 15:11, said that even those under the Gospel of Circumcision (law) are saved by grace. Why is this? Because God can add grace to works, but He can't add works to grace. Salvation by grace is a free gift. If we have to work for it, it is no longer a free gift, but wages earned.

If I have the time and opportunity, I will spoon feed as much of Paul's gospel of grace as I can--which includes all that you and heir espouse. You can't teach too much of Paul's letters.

=heir;2874384]By all means, keep it simple. Since the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth I believe that is what they should hear. Something like, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved; believing that Christ died for your sins and that He was buried and rose again on the third day."

Amen! I got saved by two verses: "For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

As a Catholic, I was discouraged from reading the Bible. In fact, I never saw a Bible until my brother brought one home from college. For me, these two verses were startling. And it caused me to search further and learn that salvation was by faith plus nothing.

I do so appreciate your writing style and especially your testimony. You said a lot in your post and it would be difficult for me to address most of it in one post. I would, however like to respond to something you said and even though it's a bit long, the topic is so misunderstood the length seems warranted.

Thank you.

And then I would like to follow up and discuss the "covenant of grace" with you if you would like to take the time. Although I do see what you are trying to say, I also know that the fact that people like you and me could even be saved was unsearchable in the OT.

I will take the time to respond.

Here goes. Since the grafting in is spoken of in Romans 11 we need a little background on who these Romans were.

They had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world

Romans 1:7-8 KJV To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

With respect, I would like to say that there are times we should not be woodenly literal. But when Paul uses the phrase "the whole world" he is using a little hyperbole. I doubt if anyone in northern Europe for example had heard of Paul's fledgling little church in Rome. No?

Paul longed to see them that he may impart to them some spiritual gift to the end they may be established

Romans 1:9-12 KJV For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; :12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

So these Romans had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world, but but it was not the mutual faith of both Paul and them. Paul longed to see them that he may impart unto them some spiritual gift to the end they may be established that he may be comforted together with them by the mutual faith both of them and him.

I believe the Romans' faith was this, the gospel of God, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord (the WHO of Jesus Christ) and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Romans 1:1-4 KJV Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; :4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

So what was the spiritual gift that Paul wanted to impart unto them that they may be established? It is Paul's "my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,..."

Romans 16:25-27 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

These Romans had never heard the gospel of Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

Romans 1:15-17 KJV So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

With this much ground to cover, on to the grafting in:

Romans 11:19-22 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This CANNOT be speaking of anyone in the Body of Christ for you CANNOT be CUT OFF! When you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting Him alone for your salvation; that He died for YOUR sins, was buried and rose again on the third day you are SEALED with that Holy Spirit of promise (the earnest of our inheritance) unto the day of redemption!

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 KJV And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
-----------------------

Notice there’s someone that Paul is focused on when he uses “thou” (which is singular in a King James Bible) and if you look back in Romans 2 you can see that this is someone that is “called a Jew”, rested in the law and made his boast of God:

Romans 2:17 KJV Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Before anyone might jump to the conclusion that Paul is actually talking to a Jew, please remember that Paul is speaking to Gentiles.

Romans 1:13 KJV Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

This person in Romans 2 is someone who was bragging on his standing in the olive tree, but the natural branches had been broken off, for Israel had fallen and unless he continued in the goodness of God, he was in danger of being broken off too.

Believing the gospel that Paul preached (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) was the only way to “continue in His goodness” and upon believing be baptized by the Holy Spirit into the one Body!

1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

heir, forgive me, but I'm not sure what your're wanting me to respond to here? I think, perhaps, I should give my opinion as to whom Romans is written. With the exception of Romans, Paul wrote his epistles to believers only (members of the Body of Christ).

Romans is, I think, written to and for Jews (beliievers and unbelievers), members of the Body (all believers), and to and for those who had never heard of Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets, Jesus Christ or Peter or Paul. In Romans 2, Paul answers the question of can the native in the jungles of South America be saved apart from Jesus Christ.

For the Jews, Paul lays the groundwork and breaks the news to the Jews that they have been cut off for unbelief and that God is bypassing them and going directly to the Gentiles with Paul's gospel of grace. I think Peter had already figured this out when God sent him to the Gentile Centurion Cornelius. When Peter walked into the the Gentile's house, the Holy Spirit fell on everyone and they spoke with tongues ("for the Jews require a sign"). Until this point in time in the life of Peter, the only acceptance of Gentiles that Peter may have seen was a Gentile becoming proselyte Jew. And of course, the Gentile would then have to get circumcised to be accepted by God. A Gentile receiving God without being circumcised was, for Peter, astonishing. And Peter used this as an argument to defend Paul at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:7-11).

For us in the Body, he reveals the good news that there is a new game in town--salvation through faith plus nothing.

For the question of what happens to the native in South America, he reveals that salvation, if boiled down, is acceptance of the one true God. Basically, God does not hold people responsible for what they do not know but only for what they do know. God will not hold the native in South America for not accepting His Son's sacrifice if he never heard of Jesus and the Cross. But Paul writes that the whole world is without excuse "because that which is known of God is manifest [evident] to them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made..." (Rom. 1:18-20).

While God will cut the "uninformed" some slack, He expects much from the Jews (who had been given the special revelations). "To whom much is given, much is expected," Jesus admonished the Jews. Recall that Jesus told Pilate that "the one [Judas] who turned Me over to you has the greater sin." Jesus expected more from an apostle who sat at His feet for three years than the ignorant crowd who shouted, "kill Jesus; free Barabbus."

The fact that Romans is written to and for these three groups is why many clergy wrestle with it. And, of course, they fail to separate Law from grace, Peter from Paul, Israel from the Body. Failure to "rightly divide" guarantees confusion.

With respect, I would like to say that there are times we should not be woodenly literal. But when Paul uses the phrase "the whole world" he is using a little hyperbole. I doubt if anyone in northern Europe for example had heard of Paul's fledgling little church in Rome. No?

The point is, they had "a faith" that was spoken of throughout the whole world (Romans 1:7-8 KJV), but it was not the "mutual faith" of both Paul and them (Romans 1:12 KJV). They believed who Jesus Christ was and that God raised Him from the dead to prove that (Romans 1:1-4 KJV), but they had never heard Paul's my gospel (Romans 1:15-17 KJV) and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began (Romans 16:25 KJV). That is what would "stablish" them into the Body of Christ.

heir, forgive me, but I'm not sure what your're wanting me to respond to here?

I'm trying to help you see that you cannot be grafted into the Olive Tree (which is Israel) and be baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ. It's an either/or and only one is available for people living in this age, only one is being offered to all men.

If it were true that you were grafted into anything, Tom you could be cut off. Can you see that from the scripture in Romans 11? You have testified that you know that members of the Body of Christ cannot be cut off, and yet you still teach that we are grafted in. The teaching that we are being grafted in is in opposition to eternal security of the believer in the dispensation of the grace of God. It needs to be thrown out.

I realize it's difficult to see that what you believe about the grafting in and are espousing is in error. I know. I used to believe and say the same thing. It's never easy to hear, but it must be addressed. I encourage you to allow the scriptures to mean what they say, as they say it and to whom they say it as you study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The Romans had a position in the Olive Tree, but Israel had fallen (the tree was coming down) and unless they continued in God's goodness (believe the gospel of Christ and become members of the Body of Christ) they too would be cut off!

I should give my opinion as to whom Romans is written. With the exception of Romans, Paul wrote his epistles to believers only (members of the Body of Christ).

I've every reason to believe that the Romans became members of the Body of Christ, but as I said before, these Romans had never heard how that Christ died for their sins (Romans 1:15-17 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) They were "called to be saints" (Romans 1:7 KJV). Paul was sent to find those being called (Acts 13:26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV) at that time. Israel had fallen (Romans 11:11 KJV), but they had not been cast away. There was a remnant at that present time according to the election of grace that God foreknew would believe. Throughout the book of Acts we see Paul gathering them into the Body of Christ.

Romans 11:1-5 KJV I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans is, I think, written to and for Jews (beliievers and unbelievers), members of the Body (all believers), and to and for those who had never heard of Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets, Jesus Christ or Peter or Paul.

As stated before, Paul is speaking to Gentiles.

Romans 1:13 KJV Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

Romans 11:13 KJV For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

At the very least, this Roman was "called a Jew" (Romans 2:17 KJV). There's only one way for a Gentile to have been "called a Jew" and that would have been to be circumcised (Romans 2:25 KJV).

I also must disagree with the assumption that these Romans "had never heard of Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets, Jesus Christ or Peter or Paul". The Bible states they most certainly did know (Acts 13:26 KJV). Again, from v. 17.

Romans 2:17-20 KJV Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

I pray that you will approve the things that are excellent where this topic is concerned. (1 Corinthians 3:10 KJV)

Philippians 1:9-10 KJVAnd this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.