Considering JRPGs are the only genre I seem to like (since sandbox games never hold my intrest more than a day, and Arkham Asylum only lasted a day), I have enough knowledge to know what problems they and "Western" RPGs have: stagnation. There is no game on Earth that can do anything differently. Everything is merely a copy of something else. Since 2000 or so, Japanese games have relied HEAVILY on anime based story arcs, characters, plots, and dear god the dialogue; copious amounts of dialogue. I'm not sure if the western developers have this issue, but it seems like developers not named Square Enix think the way to make any kind of headway is to ditch graphics and tell story by having an anime portrait pop up while a paralyzed mannequin is on the screen barely doing anything while the characters talk. The reliance on the "cutscene, dungeon, grind, big ass pre-boss cutscene, boss fight, recover, repeat" dynamic is frustrating. Persona alleviated this somewhat by using the day to day structure, but even those game fall into the rest of the typical faults Yahtzee brings up.

It made me think about how Arkham did character development; minimal cutscenes while the rest of the dialogue was fleshed out during gameplay (thanks to an intercom). I've seen Rogue Galaxy to that, but only using three random cuts of speech for every character to infinity. As much as you could blame FF7 for this, I blame Metal Gear Solid; ever since MGS came out, games have steadily relied on being "cinematic." Apparently, the model now is "USE AS MANY CUTSCENES AS POSSIBLE! MAKE IT AN INTERACTIVE MOVIE!" Well, Xenosaga (the one that EVERYONE brings up as the most obvious offender) was not interactive. It was an anime series (three in fact) spread out to insane length by adding characters walking around and getting into fights. Sadly, MGS4 raised the bar again by making cutscenes last an hour before gameplay breaks.

Games are no longer pick up and play mechanics; it takes a game like Arkham for me to be a good compromise. Let the plot points happen IN the game space while you're walking around, and don't waste money on expensive cutscenes just to feel "cinematic." Think about it, the ending to FF8 was 10-15 minutes; nearly every game in existence reels those off cutscenes that long within the first hour. It is an issue of games as a whole, not RPGs themselves.

Yahtzee, I love your Zero Punctuation vids, but your writing in the same style as your verbage doesn't work. If you don't mind a touch of critique, keep reading. If you DO mind, stop here. (You're welcome.)

I'll keep it short. Your videos are snappy, and sharply funny. The written form may have the same spirit in mind, but it just comes off like any other forum chimp that thinks they're superior than everyone else. Arrogant was my first choice of words coming to mind after reading that, confirmed by your first reply to this article. Even imagining your accent and speed doesn't help.

I'd suggest lightening up a bit? Or at least try a new angle than ripping a game/fans several new holes. Your written word lacks the delivery oumph to get across your usual humor. Maybe take the opportunity to be more assuring? Talk about good points? Positive stuff? Save the negative for Zero Punctuation.

And here ends my one and only critique I will ever give you, Yahtzee. :) Beyond this point, I won't try to tell you, or suggest to you how to do your job. I hope my words help, even if you disregard them, and they just stick in your brain, festering into a good idea. ;)

Woodsey:I've never understood the JRPG naming, but RPGs have always clearly been the likes of KotOR, Mass Effect, Oblivion, etc.

There's a difference between playing the role (like in Batman: AA) and "being" the role (like in the games listed above).

For console games the term has been around from when console RPG's were pretty much all from Japan - titles like Phantasy Star, Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger are what old git gamers like me were playing eons ago. The titles you've mentioned are those which has allowed the 'genre' to grow and diversify. They are also much more recent than the 8 and 16 bit series I've mentioned.

As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

they say its "like fallout 3, but without all that rpg crap... just the shooting!"

then i say "but thats why i loved fallout 3...cause of the rpg crap"... and then we almost get killed by a crazy navy guy who thinks we littered

I liken it to Fallout 3 without the crashing or the long drawn out bullshit.

The story is also more believable which isn't saying much ;).

It was a great game which means Yahtzee would hate it hardcore.

Helba1984:I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

But that would completely defeat the one pleasant activity that nipple dick bitchery PHD's do in the day :(. They didn't spend all those years learning how to be a whiny dick wad just to put it away and actually stop stepping on other people's balls.

An adventure game IMO is an action game that may or may not have RPG elements game that focuses more on exploring or progressing from A to B more slowly than a an action game(RE,Onimusha,Castelvina,Eternal darkness,Indigo prophesy,ect more adventure than action or RPG ).

A action RPG is an action game with RPG elements like Zelda ....or ME and dragon age :P.

Give me some titles and see if I can not slot them properly!! :P

While I mostly agree, just thought I'd point out that Zelda always has been classified as an adventure game (going waaaayyyy back to the days of the NES). Zelda has never been considered an ARPG.

Casltevania is an Action game. Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest MIGHT be considered adventure.

I dunno I always heard it called an action RPG but really both are the same to slight varying degrees. ICO (and maybe even Shadow of the Colossus) would be much more adventure and zelda would be more action, action is the key to zelda not necessarily the adventure bit tho ALTTP is more adventure than any other zelda to date as far as I am concerned.

Now if one coming to things saw or played FF12 it could be called a action adventure RPG, but with all its trappings its just a RPG with real time combat as an option.

Helba1984:As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

Helba1984:As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

FF12 was sooooooo close....*sigh*

12 was an atrocity; it was an action game wearing a RPG costume to the FF party, and I saw right through it. Let us hope they never try that again.

Helba1984:As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

FF12 was sooooooo close....*sigh*

12 was an atrocity; it was an action game wearing a RPG costume to the FF party, and I saw right through it. Let us hope they never try that again.

What FF had level design...err....... I am thinking....er..... ok characters.....er...ok story..... the equipment was bland and crappy FF has been suffering from that on and off since 8....the skill system was broken. But what I am getting at, put in classic and fun FF weapons not the MMO knock offs put in 3 or 4 accessories per character and for christ sake over haul the skill board system or use the sphere grid for FFX...which was the only worth while thing about 10....well that and customization of equipment.........

You do realize its just TB combat set to realtime, frankly I would have loved it if they expanded it a bit more let you break up party members like dragon age, have radius based spells and suck, hell with alil tweak you could a Shining force using that setup!

BTW....FF12 is better than FF8 and FFX...and FF5...well...FF5 was kinda fun it was a lulz fest and all......... tho FF9 is better than..well..... any of them since FF6.....

Helba1984:As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

FF12 was sooooooo close....*sigh*

12 was an atrocity; it was an action game wearing a RPG costume to the FF party, and I saw right through it. Let us hope they never try that again.

What FF had level design...err....... I am thinking....er..... ok characters.....er...ok story..... the equipment was bland and crappy FF has been suffering from that on and off since 8....the skill system was broken. But what I am getting at, put in classic and fun FF weapons not the MMO knock offs put in 3 or 4 accessories per character and for christ sake over haul the skill board system or use the sphere grid for FFX...which was the only worth while thing about 10....well that and customization of equipment.........

You do realize its just TB combat set to realtime, frankly I would have loved it if they expanded it a bit more let you break up party members like dragon age, have radius based spells and suck, hell with alil tweak you could a Shining force using that setup!

BTW....FF12 is better than FF8 and FFX...and FF5...well...FF5 was kinda fun it was a lulz fest and all......... tho FF9 is better than..well..... any of them since FF6.....

Yes, I do realize that, being that I'm not a moron. I do, in fact, not prefer real-time to turn based. The former requires only reflexes while the latter requires lateral thinking and strategy. X's battle system was honestly the best one I've played in any RPG barring Legend of Dragoon.

And no, 12 was a stinkpile compared to X. Story was interesting, the world was well crafted, but the combat turned me off so much I never managed to get past hour 35.

Again, surely every game has you playing a role to a certain extent, but presumably it's intended to harken back to the old pen-and-paper role-playing games you used to play with your little friends around the kitchen table in your pathetic, idle youth (or pathetic, idle current existence).

I don't know if i should laugh or be offended :\ And even in mass effect you only get a few options for what what kind of character you want to play and in the end it won't matter to anyone but you because the true element of an rpg is friends. I need to dust off my social skills and get a dnd group together.

I can understand not wanting to review Borderlands because of the multiplayer aspect, but wouldn't co-op games be an exception? I mean, I never play co-op games publicly (unless I desperately need help), I play with one of my friends in private co-op, because split-screen is not what it used to be. I tried Borderlands in split-screen and thought it was awful (the split-screen, I mean, because you can't see the entire HUD).

Helba1984:As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

FF12 was sooooooo close....*sigh*

12 was an atrocity; it was an action game wearing a RPG costume to the FF party, and I saw right through it. Let us hope they never try that again.

What FF had level design...err....... I am thinking....er..... ok characters.....er...ok story..... the equipment was bland and crappy FF has been suffering from that on and off since 8....the skill system was broken. But what I am getting at, put in classic and fun FF weapons not the MMO knock offs put in 3 or 4 accessories per character and for christ sake over haul the skill board system or use the sphere grid for FFX...which was the only worth while thing about 10....well that and customization of equipment.........

You do realize its just TB combat set to realtime, frankly I would have loved it if they expanded it a bit more let you break up party members like dragon age, have radius based spells and suck, hell with alil tweak you could a Shining force using that setup!

BTW....FF12 is better than FF8 and FFX...and FF5...well...FF5 was kinda fun it was a lulz fest and all......... tho FF9 is better than..well..... any of them since FF6.....

Yes, I do realize that, being that I'm not a moron. I do, in fact, not prefer real-time to turn based. The former requires only reflexes while the latter requires lateral thinking and strategy. X's battle system was honestly the best one I've played in any RPG barring Legend of Dragoon.

And no, 12 was a stinkpile compared to X. Story was interesting, the world was well crafted, but the combat turned me off so much I never managed to get past hour 35.

That should read What FF12 had.....

Not really as the real time combat can be turned off so its your fault for using it :PWhat really destroyed the game was it had generic generic equipment and a crap pooly thought out skill system and blitz where cheap and crappy, it was mostly a very shallow game.

I had more fun toying with the combat system than the game itself, but it did get tedious changing in between "ZOMG! grind mode" where nothing can kill them and cover basic sht "heal alil bit and nothign ealse....hey no dun you that!111"and such...it could have been better implemented with persets for each character and resets for the group. I was rather surprised that it was better polished in how it checks and dose gambits than the AI scripts for charatcers in dragon age...tactics is a bit...wonky....

Mmmmmmmmmmm FFX and FF12 are a tie on story and characters...sadly.... I can see the good and the bad of both...I think all in all FF12 has better story/dialog FFX has a better plot its jsut poorly utilized.

Blitz ball was more intereing than the game itself too.... the things they did with summons was nice as was the eventual customize equipment, the sphere grid was great but for the generic classes they used, they could have done the classes a bit better gave out more classic skills instead of just use normal spells and such, but still you progress from your class to teh enxt class by it...I can dig that...the game itself tho....was CRAP disconjointed settings a story you want to stab your eyes out over..I mean gamepaly aside its FF8 all over again.....and I think FF8 had a better romance story than FFX 0-o

Helba1984:As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

FF12 was sooooooo close....*sigh*

12 was an atrocity; it was an action game wearing a RPG costume to the FF party, and I saw right through it. Let us hope they never try that again.

What FF had level design...err....... I am thinking....er..... ok characters.....er...ok story..... the equipment was bland and crappy FF has been suffering from that on and off since 8....the skill system was broken. But what I am getting at, put in classic and fun FF weapons not the MMO knock offs put in 3 or 4 accessories per character and for christ sake over haul the skill board system or use the sphere grid for FFX...which was the only worth while thing about 10....well that and customization of equipment.........

You do realize its just TB combat set to realtime, frankly I would have loved it if they expanded it a bit more let you break up party members like dragon age, have radius based spells and suck, hell with alil tweak you could a Shining force using that setup!

BTW....FF12 is better than FF8 and FFX...and FF5...well...FF5 was kinda fun it was a lulz fest and all......... tho FF9 is better than..well..... any of them since FF6.....

Yes, I do realize that, being that I'm not a moron. I do, in fact, not prefer real-time to turn based. The former requires only reflexes while the latter requires lateral thinking and strategy. X's battle system was honestly the best one I've played in any RPG barring Legend of Dragoon.

And no, 12 was a stinkpile compared to X. Story was interesting, the world was well crafted, but the combat turned me off so much I never managed to get past hour 35.

That should read What FF12 had.....

Not really as the real time combat can be turned off so its your fault for using it :PWhat really destroyed the game was it had generic generic equipment and a crap pooly thought out skill system and blitz where cheap and crappy, it was mostly a very shallow game.

I had more fun toying with the combat system than the game itself, but it did get tedious changing in between "ZOMG! grind mode" where nothing can kill them and cover basic sht "heal alil bit and nothign ealse....hey no dun you that!111"and such...it could have been better implemented with persets for each character and resets for the group. I was rather surprised that it was better polished in how it checks and dose gambits than the AI scripts for charatcers in dragon age...tactics is a bit...wonky....

Mmmmmmmmmmm FFX and FF12 are a tie on story and characters...sadly.... I can see the good and the bad of both...I think all in all FF12 has better story/dialog FFX has a better plot its jsut poorly utilized.

Blitz ball was more intereing than the game itself too.... the things they did with summons was nice as was the eventual customize equipment, the sphere grid was great but for the generic classes they used, they could have done the classes a bit better gave out more classic skills instead of just use normal spells and such, but still you progress from your class to teh enxt class by it...I can dig that...the game itself tho....was CRAP disconjointed settings a story you want to stab your eyes out over..I mean gamepaly aside its FF8 all over again.....and I think FF8 had a better romance story than FFX 0-o

god...you know you played to much FF when........ LOL

X wasn't so much a romance as a tragedy, and it's rarely done in games that a main character dies like that - which is bonus points for bravery and creativity.

But the battle system I'm referring to isn't just turn based, it's conditionally turn based; it uses an actual initiative system, wherein your actions determine how long you have to wait for that character to be able to do something again. In my mind it was pure perfection in that regard, and I wish XII had kept it instead of going the "let's try to be oblivion" route they went.

And the fact that it does it without the mind-fucking stress load that the ATB puts on you is a HUGE plus.

Helba1984:As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

FF12 was sooooooo close....*sigh*

12 was an atrocity; it was an action game wearing a RPG costume to the FF party, and I saw right through it. Let us hope they never try that again.

What FF had level design...err....... I am thinking....er..... ok characters.....er...ok story..... the equipment was bland and crappy FF has been suffering from that on and off since 8....the skill system was broken. But what I am getting at, put in classic and fun FF weapons not the MMO knock offs put in 3 or 4 accessories per character and for christ sake over haul the skill board system or use the sphere grid for FFX...which was the only worth while thing about 10....well that and customization of equipment.........

You do realize its just TB combat set to realtime, frankly I would have loved it if they expanded it a bit more let you break up party members like dragon age, have radius based spells and suck, hell with alil tweak you could a Shining force using that setup!

BTW....FF12 is better than FF8 and FFX...and FF5...well...FF5 was kinda fun it was a lulz fest and all......... tho FF9 is better than..well..... any of them since FF6.....

Yes, I do realize that, being that I'm not a moron. I do, in fact, not prefer real-time to turn based. The former requires only reflexes while the latter requires lateral thinking and strategy. X's battle system was honestly the best one I've played in any RPG barring Legend of Dragoon.

And no, 12 was a stinkpile compared to X. Story was interesting, the world was well crafted, but the combat turned me off so much I never managed to get past hour 35.

That should read What FF12 had.....

Not really as the real time combat can be turned off so its your fault for using it :PWhat really destroyed the game was it had generic generic equipment and a crap pooly thought out skill system and blitz where cheap and crappy, it was mostly a very shallow game.

I had more fun toying with the combat system than the game itself, but it did get tedious changing in between "ZOMG! grind mode" where nothing can kill them and cover basic sht "heal alil bit and nothign ealse....hey no dun you that!111"and such...it could have been better implemented with persets for each character and resets for the group. I was rather surprised that it was better polished in how it checks and dose gambits than the AI scripts for charatcers in dragon age...tactics is a bit...wonky....

Mmmmmmmmmmm FFX and FF12 are a tie on story and characters...sadly.... I can see the good and the bad of both...I think all in all FF12 has better story/dialog FFX has a better plot its jsut poorly utilized.

Blitz ball was more intereing than the game itself too.... the things they did with summons was nice as was the eventual customize equipment, the sphere grid was great but for the generic classes they used, they could have done the classes a bit better gave out more classic skills instead of just use normal spells and such, but still you progress from your class to teh enxt class by it...I can dig that...the game itself tho....was CRAP disconjointed settings a story you want to stab your eyes out over..I mean gamepaly aside its FF8 all over again.....and I think FF8 had a better romance story than FFX 0-o

god...you know you played to much FF when........ LOL

X wasn't so much a romance as a tragedy, and it's rarely done in games that a main character dies like that - which is bonus points for bravery and creativity.

But the battle system I'm referring to isn't just turn based, it's conditionally turn based; it uses an actual initiative system, wherein your actions determine how long you have to wait for that character to be able to do something again. In my mind it was pure perfection in that regard, and I wish XII had kept it instead of going the "let's try to be oblivion" route they went.

And the fact that it does it without the mind-fucking stress load that the ATB puts on you is a HUGE plus.

Mmmmm no...the triadic aspect of it dose not make it suck better.... you should watch more anime, tragedy is over done... done better sometimes...but over the top when it is used....

And your argument on the combat is semantics(even more so when its set to TB and goes by turns as well as without the gambits, they really should have made a easy button for turning it on....) I felt the combat was worse in FFX than FF9 or FF7..... or even FFX2...from what I played of it...a shame you could not change equipment independently with the dress spheres was hoping for more FF5 and less barbie with that one....

A Role-Playing game is a game where the abillities of the character your playing supercede your own and determine success or failure. In a game where the results are entirely dependant on your personal abillities, then it is not an RPG.

The development of "Action RPGs" is basically an attempt to create a hybrid in which there is more active and constant player input than simply selection actions "turn based" and let a mathe engine crunch some stats and a few random variables to prevent things from being entirely predictable. The proper definition in this case depends on the game still relying primarily on stats, with invisible dice being rolled in the backround as opposed to the results being dependant on your aim.

One of the problems with the term is that RPG players tend to be fairly elitist and with good reason. It takes a certain degree of intelligence to be able to compile and understand the complicated statistics and rules of a lot of RPGs. Granted this is not being smart in any practical way though, so it falls heavily into the "nerd" catagory. RPGs dominated gaming for quite a while it seems, before the mainstream got involved and FPS type games really took off. Still among the nerds there is a desire for a lot of them to prove that they are smart or "elite" nerds. Given the fact that you can't take a dumb person, or someone with the desire but not the time to invest, and suddenly make them understand, you have seen a lot of RPGs gradually become simplified and devolve more and more into twitch games under the limited justification of "action RPG" even when the RPG elements are non-existant or virtually so. Borderlands for example claims to be an action RPG, but strictly speaking while you can customize abillities you can beat the game without allocating a single talent if your patient enough or have the desire.

This is incidently where a lot of conflict among gamers comes from. A lot of people want to be considered RPG gamers, but those people also want immediate gratification and not to have to work or think. "Real" RPG gamers on the other hand want to approach things as an intellectual exercise and work with stats and statistics, the more complicated and involved the better. This is incidently one of the big arguements by guys who LIKE turn based RPGs and games that allow you to think between each move and have the game move at your pace.

I will also say that increasingly it seems RPGs seem to be replacing depth with sheer length. Generally speaking I've gradually noticed that a lot of the people who brag about their RPG prowess are playing games that aren't very good RPGs, but for whatever reason are very long and thus unapproachable. Even if not hard, not everyone wants to put a hundred hours into a game for a playthrough, especially if it's mediocre.

The thing about the really long RPGs that RPG players worshipped is that they were very good, and very deep for the day they were created. In response to people complaining about length I think a number of companies have come to the conclusion that they can simply sacrifice quality for length and satisfy the fans. To some extent this DOES appeal to a certain kind of mainstream pseudo-RPG player, but also explains why a lot of the hardcore RPG crowd complains.

At any rate, this is getting well off subject.

The bottom line is that as I said initially an RPG is a game where the abillities of the character your playing determine far more than the abillities of the player. This way a "Lobster Accountant" with a moderatly large amount of brain power, but no reflexs or coordination or whatever, can be the "great warrior" without having to be able to manipulate a controller.

It is true that in almost all games you take on the role of some character, but RPG isn't a label intended to be understood literally. The nod to the PnP games that inspired them is of course obvious, as is the logic. Guys sitting around a table having adventures with numbers and dice, rather than say going out and trying to do exciting things in person (like say taking up Spelunking instead of pretending to explore caves, or learning how to fence for real, or whatever else).

Helba1984:As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

FF12 was sooooooo close....*sigh*

12 was an atrocity; it was an action game wearing a RPG costume to the FF party, and I saw right through it. Let us hope they never try that again.

What FF had level design...err....... I am thinking....er..... ok characters.....er...ok story..... the equipment was bland and crappy FF has been suffering from that on and off since 8....the skill system was broken. But what I am getting at, put in classic and fun FF weapons not the MMO knock offs put in 3 or 4 accessories per character and for christ sake over haul the skill board system or use the sphere grid for FFX...which was the only worth while thing about 10....well that and customization of equipment.........

You do realize its just TB combat set to realtime, frankly I would have loved it if they expanded it a bit more let you break up party members like dragon age, have radius based spells and suck, hell with alil tweak you could a Shining force using that setup!

BTW....FF12 is better than FF8 and FFX...and FF5...well...FF5 was kinda fun it was a lulz fest and all......... tho FF9 is better than..well..... any of them since FF6.....

Yes, I do realize that, being that I'm not a moron. I do, in fact, not prefer real-time to turn based. The former requires only reflexes while the latter requires lateral thinking and strategy. X's battle system was honestly the best one I've played in any RPG barring Legend of Dragoon.

And no, 12 was a stinkpile compared to X. Story was interesting, the world was well crafted, but the combat turned me off so much I never managed to get past hour 35.

That should read What FF12 had.....

Not really as the real time combat can be turned off so its your fault for using it :PWhat really destroyed the game was it had generic generic equipment and a crap pooly thought out skill system and blitz where cheap and crappy, it was mostly a very shallow game.

I had more fun toying with the combat system than the game itself, but it did get tedious changing in between "ZOMG! grind mode" where nothing can kill them and cover basic sht "heal alil bit and nothign ealse....hey no dun you that!111"and such...it could have been better implemented with persets for each character and resets for the group. I was rather surprised that it was better polished in how it checks and dose gambits than the AI scripts for charatcers in dragon age...tactics is a bit...wonky....

Mmmmmmmmmmm FFX and FF12 are a tie on story and characters...sadly.... I can see the good and the bad of both...I think all in all FF12 has better story/dialog FFX has a better plot its jsut poorly utilized.

Blitz ball was more intereing than the game itself too.... the things they did with summons was nice as was the eventual customize equipment, the sphere grid was great but for the generic classes they used, they could have done the classes a bit better gave out more classic skills instead of just use normal spells and such, but still you progress from your class to teh enxt class by it...I can dig that...the game itself tho....was CRAP disconjointed settings a story you want to stab your eyes out over..I mean gamepaly aside its FF8 all over again.....and I think FF8 had a better romance story than FFX 0-o

god...you know you played to much FF when........ LOL

X wasn't so much a romance as a tragedy, and it's rarely done in games that a main character dies like that - which is bonus points for bravery and creativity.

But the battle system I'm referring to isn't just turn based, it's conditionally turn based; it uses an actual initiative system, wherein your actions determine how long you have to wait for that character to be able to do something again. In my mind it was pure perfection in that regard, and I wish XII had kept it instead of going the "let's try to be oblivion" route they went.

And the fact that it does it without the mind-fucking stress load that the ATB puts on you is a HUGE plus.[

ZippyDSMlee:[quote="Helba1984" post="6.169104.4598728"]As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

FF12 was sooooooo close....*sigh*

12 was an atrocity; it was an action game wearing a RPG costume to the FF party, and I saw right through it. Let us hope they never try that again.

What FF had level design...err....... I am thinking....er..... ok characters.....er...ok story..... the equipment was bland and crappy FF has been suffering from that on and off since 8....the skill system was broken. But what I am getting at, put in classic and fun FF weapons not the MMO knock offs put in 3 or 4 accessories per character and for christ sake over haul the skill board system or use the sphere grid for FFX...which was the only worth while thing about 10....well that and customization of equipment.........

You do realize its just TB combat set to realtime, frankly I would have loved it if they expanded it a bit more let you break up party members like dragon age, have radius based spells and suck, hell with alil tweak you could a Shining force using that setup!

BTW....FF12 is better than FF8 and FFX...and FF5...well...FF5 was kinda fun it was a lulz fest and all......... tho FF9 is better than..well..... any of them since FF6.....

Yes, I do realize that, being that I'm not a moron. I do, in fact, not prefer real-time to turn based. The former requires only reflexes while the latter requires lateral thinking and strategy. X's battle system was honestly the best one I've played in any RPG barring Legend of Dragoon.

And no, 12 was a stinkpile compared to X. Story was interesting, the world was well crafted, but the combat turned me off so much I never managed to get past hour 35.

That should read What FF12 had.....

Not really as the real time combat can be turned off so its your fault for using it :PWhat really destroyed the game was it had generic generic equipment and a crap pooly thought out skill system and blitz where cheap and crappy, it was mostly a very shallow game.

I had more fun toying with the combat system than the game itself, but it did get tedious changing in between "ZOMG! grind mode" where nothing can kill them and cover basic sht "heal alil bit and nothign ealse....hey no dun you that!111"and such...it could have been better implemented with persets for each character and resets for the group. I was rather surprised that it was better polished in how it checks and dose gambits than the AI scripts for charatcers in dragon age...tactics is a bit...wonky....

Mmmmmmmmmmm FFX and FF12 are a tie on story and characters...sadly.... I can see the good and the bad of both...I think all in all FF12 has better story/dialog FFX has a better plot its jsut poorly utilized.

Blitz ball was more intereing than the game itself too.... the things they did with summons was nice as was the eventual customize equipment, the sphere grid was great but for the generic classes they used, they could have done the classes a bit better gave out more classic skills instead of just use normal spells and such, but still you progress from your class to teh enxt class by it...I can dig that...the game itself tho....was CRAP disconjointed settings a story you want to stab your eyes out over..I mean gamepaly aside its FF8 all over again.....and I think FF8 had a better romance story than FFX 0-o

god...you know you played to much FF when........ LOL

X wasn't so much a romance as a tragedy, and it's rarely done in games that a main character dies like that - which is bonus points for bravery and creativity.

But the battle system I'm referring to isn't just turn based, it's conditionally turn based; it uses an actual initiative system, wherein your actions determine how long you have to wait for that character to be able to do something again. In my mind it was pure perfection in that regard, and I wish XII had kept it instead of going the "let's try to be oblivion" route they went.

And the fact that it does it without the mind-fucking stress load that the ATB puts on you is a HUGE plus.

Mmmmm no...the triadic aspect of it dose not make it suck better.... you should watch more anime, tragedy is over done... done better sometimes...but over the top when it is used....

And your argument on the combat is semantics(even more so when its set to TB and goes by turns as well as without the gambits, they really should have made a easy button for turning it on....) I felt the combat was worse in FFX than FF9 or FF7..... or even FFX2...from what I played of it...a shame you could not change equipment independently with the dress spheres was hoping for more FF5 and less barbie with that one....

I didn't like 7 specifically because of ATB. It's a mind-fuck, plain and simple. The designers even consider X's battle system quite different. It's called the Conditional Turn Battle System, as opposed to the Active Time Battle System.

Helba1984:As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

FF12 was sooooooo close....*sigh*

12 was an atrocity; it was an action game wearing a RPG costume to the FF party, and I saw right through it. Let us hope they never try that again.

What FF had level design...err....... I am thinking....er..... ok characters.....er...ok story..... the equipment was bland and crappy FF has been suffering from that on and off since 8....the skill system was broken. But what I am getting at, put in classic and fun FF weapons not the MMO knock offs put in 3 or 4 accessories per character and for christ sake over haul the skill board system or use the sphere grid for FFX...which was the only worth while thing about 10....well that and customization of equipment.........

You do realize its just TB combat set to realtime, frankly I would have loved it if they expanded it a bit more let you break up party members like dragon age, have radius based spells and suck, hell with alil tweak you could a Shining force using that setup!

BTW....FF12 is better than FF8 and FFX...and FF5...well...FF5 was kinda fun it was a lulz fest and all......... tho FF9 is better than..well..... any of them since FF6.....

Yes, I do realize that, being that I'm not a moron. I do, in fact, not prefer real-time to turn based. The former requires only reflexes while the latter requires lateral thinking and strategy. X's battle system was honestly the best one I've played in any RPG barring Legend of Dragoon.

And no, 12 was a stinkpile compared to X. Story was interesting, the world was well crafted, but the combat turned me off so much I never managed to get past hour 35.

That should read What FF12 had.....

Not really as the real time combat can be turned off so its your fault for using it :PWhat really destroyed the game was it had generic generic equipment and a crap pooly thought out skill system and blitz where cheap and crappy, it was mostly a very shallow game.

I had more fun toying with the combat system than the game itself, but it did get tedious changing in between "ZOMG! grind mode" where nothing can kill them and cover basic sht "heal alil bit and nothign ealse....hey no dun you that!111"and such...it could have been better implemented with persets for each character and resets for the group. I was rather surprised that it was better polished in how it checks and dose gambits than the AI scripts for charatcers in dragon age...tactics is a bit...wonky....

Mmmmmmmmmmm FFX and FF12 are a tie on story and characters...sadly.... I can see the good and the bad of both...I think all in all FF12 has better story/dialog FFX has a better plot its jsut poorly utilized.

Blitz ball was more intereing than the game itself too.... the things they did with summons was nice as was the eventual customize equipment, the sphere grid was great but for the generic classes they used, they could have done the classes a bit better gave out more classic skills instead of just use normal spells and such, but still you progress from your class to teh enxt class by it...I can dig that...the game itself tho....was CRAP disconjointed settings a story you want to stab your eyes out over..I mean gamepaly aside its FF8 all over again.....and I think FF8 had a better romance story than FFX 0-o

god...you know you played to much FF when........ LOL

X wasn't so much a romance as a tragedy, and it's rarely done in games that a main character dies like that - which is bonus points for bravery and creativity.

But the battle system I'm referring to isn't just turn based, it's conditionally turn based; it uses an actual initiative system, wherein your actions determine how long you have to wait for that character to be able to do something again. In my mind it was pure perfection in that regard, and I wish XII had kept it instead of going the "let's try to be oblivion" route they went.

And the fact that it does it without the mind-fucking stress load that the ATB puts on you is a HUGE plus.[

ZippyDSMlee:[quote="Helba1984" post="6.169104.4598728"]As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I'm so sick and tired of JRPG bashing. If you don't like the genre, don't play it; but don't sit there and criticize it on grounds you don't understand, because you encourage negative attitudes in those who haven't played them, and in those who have, you incite an ire greater than Melkor himself could unleash upon your wretched, misinformed soul.

You want a list of decent JRPGs, so you can form a coherent opinion?

Because I'd be more than happy to oblige, just like I told you where you misunderstood Demon's Souls' gameplay mechanics and once you understood that you said it wasn't so bad.

For the last 6 years ago JRPGs have devoled into MMO(grinding) like bland as crap(equipment wise) RPGs not to mention the general size of the game world has steadily shrunken this effects WRPGs more they become short and short sighted like the rest of petty pretty media..... I wish the 2 would merge fun equipment/skills, some optional grindage, pretty boys and grand level design!

FF12 was sooooooo close....*sigh*

12 was an atrocity; it was an action game wearing a RPG costume to the FF party, and I saw right through it. Let us hope they never try that again.

What FF had level design...err....... I am thinking....er..... ok characters.....er...ok story..... the equipment was bland and crappy FF has been suffering from that on and off since 8....the skill system was broken. But what I am getting at, put in classic and fun FF weapons not the MMO knock offs put in 3 or 4 accessories per character and for christ sake over haul the skill board system or use the sphere grid for FFX...which was the only worth while thing about 10....well that and customization of equipment.........

You do realize its just TB combat set to realtime, frankly I would have loved it if they expanded it a bit more let you break up party members like dragon age, have radius based spells and suck, hell with alil tweak you could a Shining force using that setup!

BTW....FF12 is better than FF8 and FFX...and FF5...well...FF5 was kinda fun it was a lulz fest and all......... tho FF9 is better than..well..... any of them since FF6.....

Yes, I do realize that, being that I'm not a moron. I do, in fact, not prefer real-time to turn based. The former requires only reflexes while the latter requires lateral thinking and strategy. X's battle system was honestly the best one I've played in any RPG barring Legend of Dragoon.

And no, 12 was a stinkpile compared to X. Story was interesting, the world was well crafted, but the combat turned me off so much I never managed to get past hour 35.

That should read What FF12 had.....

Not really as the real time combat can be turned off so its your fault for using it :PWhat really destroyed the game was it had generic generic equipment and a crap pooly thought out skill system and blitz where cheap and crappy, it was mostly a very shallow game.

I had more fun toying with the combat system than the game itself, but it did get tedious changing in between "ZOMG! grind mode" where nothing can kill them and cover basic sht "heal alil bit and nothign ealse....hey no dun you that!111"and such...it could have been better implemented with persets for each character and resets for the group. I was rather surprised that it was better polished in how it checks and dose gambits than the AI scripts for charatcers in dragon age...tactics is a bit...wonky....

Mmmmmmmmmmm FFX and FF12 are a tie on story and characters...sadly.... I can see the good and the bad of both...I think all in all FF12 has better story/dialog FFX has a better plot its jsut poorly utilized.

Blitz ball was more intereing than the game itself too.... the things they did with summons was nice as was the eventual customize equipment, the sphere grid was great but for the generic classes they used, they could have done the classes a bit better gave out more classic skills instead of just use normal spells and such, but still you progress from your class to teh enxt class by it...I can dig that...the game itself tho....was CRAP disconjointed settings a story you want to stab your eyes out over..I mean gamepaly aside its FF8 all over again.....and I think FF8 had a better romance story than FFX 0-o

god...you know you played to much FF when........ LOL

X wasn't so much a romance as a tragedy, and it's rarely done in games that a main character dies like that - which is bonus points for bravery and creativity.

But the battle system I'm referring to isn't just turn based, it's conditionally turn based; it uses an actual initiative system, wherein your actions determine how long you have to wait for that character to be able to do something again. In my mind it was pure perfection in that regard, and I wish XII had kept it instead of going the "let's try to be oblivion" route they went.

And the fact that it does it without the mind-fucking stress load that the ATB puts on you is a HUGE plus.

Mmmmm no...the triadic aspect of it dose not make it suck better.... you should watch more anime, tragedy is over done... done better sometimes...but over the top when it is used....

And your argument on the combat is semantics(even more so when its set to TB and goes by turns as well as without the gambits, they really should have made a easy button for turning it on....) I felt the combat was worse in FFX than FF9 or FF7..... or even FFX2...from what I played of it...a shame you could not change equipment independently with the dress spheres was hoping for more FF5 and less barbie with that one....

I didn't like 7 specifically because of ATB. It's a mind-fuck, plain and simple. The designers even consider X's battle system quite different. It's called the Conditional Turn Battle System, as opposed to the Active Time Battle System.

you can turn ATB off ya know..... least in FF7 it was that or turning off "turns" so enemies can attack....it was not the turn based nature of FFX it was something else just the mix of skills,characters enemies it felt wrong somehow that with everything else it just blah....blitz ball was more enjoyable.....and I hate sports.....

The only thing I found wrong with 7 was not enough equipment and the meteria system made it easy to make everyone feel generic but despite that the blitz attacks made them more unique and saved the gamepaly from mundandity..... FF9 is the best of the FFs as far as gameplay goes it has the polished classes,skills and equipment characters and dialog is good enough story is so so plot is shooty but its more a fun and fantastical story so its easier to handle than the emoy la la land of 8,X and even bits of 12.... its a shame FF no longer has a sense of whimsy in tis design or story........ FF13 is a nightmare.... its FFX-3......

I actually played and finished Borderlands completely singleplayer, and thought it was decent. Playing online didn't interest me enough to go through all the bullshit and hoops you have to jump through to get the bloody thing to work online on a PC. Like Yahtzee, I find online multiplayer pretty boring anyway.

Strife2GFAQs:Sadly, MGS4 raised the bar again by making cutscenes last an hour before gameplay breaks.

MGS4 also raised the bar by being awesome. People are also pretty ignorant about Metal Gear Online... same solid gameplay, no story or cutscenes.

What's with all the FF12 hate? It has twice as many guys named Cids as any other FF, and Balthier "I'm The Leading Man" Sky Pirate with his hot rabbit-girl sidekick... he's what you get when a Japanese writer is like "how could we make Han Solo more awesome?" It's the best FF game since FFX2 where you were always one button-press away from watching your characters change outfits... the only thing that could have made it better would have been keeping Lulu instead of introducing Payne. Yeah, my wife banned me from playing that one after seeing how I got through fights.

Helba1984:As I've said before, JRPGs are more akin to a true RPG and western RPGs are more like an action-RPG hybrid as of about 6 years ago.

I still really don't understand the comparison. True, western RPGs have become more like LARPing than good ol' pen and paper RPG, but the only thing JRPGs have in common with the original D&D is RNG and turn-based battles.

I dunno about you, but those don't seem like the defining characteristics of role-playing to me.

Woodsey:I've never understood the JRPG naming, but RPGs have always clearly been the likes of KotOR, Mass Effect, Oblivion, etc.

There's a difference between playing the role (like in Batman: AA) and "being" the role (like in the games listed above).

For console games the term has been around from when console RPG's were pretty much all from Japan - titles like Phantasy Star, Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger are what old git gamers like me were playing eons ago. The titles you've mentioned are those which has allowed the 'genre' to grow and diversify. They are also much more recent than the 8 and 16 bit series I've mentioned.

But they're not RPGs is what I was trying to say - they don't fit the same criteria so why are they named that?

Why not call them Japanese Adventure games then? That'd seem more appropriate.

The RPG name comes from the pen and paper D&D, doesn't it?

KotOR works off of one of the updated versions of the D&D "engine" (not sure what its called) - its not an evolution of JRPGs.

Once again I'm disappointed. As of late I've been coming under the impression that Yahtzee is at least somewhat of a bigot. But after reading this article I now think that I've really hit the nail on the head with this one. He can dislike JRPGs if he wants to but using the word "gay" as an insult is just childish and quite frankly low even for him. He, like other people, can't seem to tell the difference between gay and transgender. The two are by no means one and the same. Rock Hudson for example was considered to be an exceptionally manly man before the fact that he was gay became common knowledge.

Naturally I very much agree. I'm often willing to deal with his bile because he often manages to be funny at the same time but this time he seems to have crossed the line so to speak.

Zaydin:I've actually come to decide that JRPGs aren't RPGs at all. For starters, the player rarely, if ever has an impact on the story or the characters choices. The one JRPG I've seen that has a degree of that is the Shin Megami Tensei games. JRPGs rail-road you down one and only one possible story path. Western RPGs like Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, and Dragon Age let you choose how your character acts and what they do; role-playing. JRPGs only real RPG element is the party building and stat building. And again, western RPGs let you customize how your character looks, acts, etc etc, versus JRPGs where you are forced to play a stupid idiot like Neku from TWEWY (Don't get me wrong, TWEWY is fun, but it's still overall a traditional JRPG, story wise)

Oh boy. I've said this before but any tendency toward non-linearity that Western RPGs tend to boast is more often than not (if ever) just a bunch of smoke and mirrors. It would seem that almost all games have one and only one story path. For example games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect (a so called "true" RPG) may give the player the illusion of control or impact. But no matter what you do the destination is always the same. Like in Dragon Age for example you ALWAYS become a Grey Warden and you are ALWAYS on a quest to slay the Archdemon. There is no escape from this. Things like alternate beginnings and endings are still more smoke and mirrors, albeit perhaps effective smoke and mirrors. Western RPGs are just as limited and linear and JRPGs, the only difference is that they try to hide it. JRPGs on the other hand are often more honest with themselves and try to take advantage of their linear nature to tell better stories with good characters. This seems to be what's happening with the up and coming Final Fantasy XIII.

I would say that JRPGs often have better stories because Western RPGs that follow the "create your own experience" model don't actually have stories of their own, or at least not complete ones. I guess it can be compared to the DS game "Drawn to Life": a game that as Yahtzee describes it is a game that was so unfinished the player had to do a lot of the level design themselves. The "create your own experience" model may give the players the illusion of actually being part of the story but the player cannot truly be part of the story because the game, by it's very nature, has no true story. The player cannot become part of the cannon except perhaps in their own heads. Except that a lot of other players have their own stories in their heads, thus the game really has no true story. Without alternate, branching MAIN storylines (because stuff like side quests and mini-quests are just more smoke and mirrors that try to distract from the games linear or "rail" nature) any element of player control is just going to be little more than an illusion or perhaps a gilded cage.

Almost all games are "rail" games. It's just a matter of how visible the rail is and whether or not you want to allow yourself to see it.

Arehexes:I agree with the whole genre thing is a mess, and I also agree that most jrpgs are not true rpgs. But the few that are close like the first Final Fantasy(which has traits from the old D&D games in them), and reading the whole jrpg hate(which to some degree is true about the set story and the stats are static) "true" rpgs like Mass Effect still has the same story in the grand scheme. Sure the personality of the hero can be changed but it won't change that a evil thing is here to destroy the world and you and a band of heroes have to stop them, just like in a jrpg. The same could be said about the Elder Scrolls 4 and Final Fantasy 5, you can be a Warrior in TES4 and have Bartz(the main hero) be a knight in FF5 or have them both be a form of mage. The thing is you still have to stop the big evil and save the world, a problem I hear comparing the two is "point A to point B" with jrpgs which is stupid. All games are "point A to point B" from FPS, platformers, adventures, action, J and W RPGs to. The only real difference between a WRPG and a JRPG is that in a WRPG is more open in exploring with sidequesting (As red mage put it from 8-bit side questing separates the heroes from the murders). But a WRPG is just as point A to point B, TES4 does it making me go to a dungeon explore it get the item or trigger the event and go return/report to the quest giver. That makes me start at A go to B and loop back to A, same with the main plot. Now Mass Effect is different because you can choose where to go in the plot but you still have to go to all the planets at some point. Sadly JRPGs and WRPG are the same, but JRPGs are more stream line for players for just to jump in and play...and with men looking like women.

Obviously I agree with SOME of what you say but I'm getting tired of all this talk of "androgynous" characters. Yahtzee is obviously not an anime fan. In JRPGs it's easy to tell the men apart from the women so what the hell is the problem? I'm not even sure if the word androgynous is actually being used correctly. Yahtzee in particular seems to use it way too much and too widely. He once used the term when referring to Final Fantasy XIII. Does anyone really think that characters like Snow and Sazh can be mistaken for women? I'm seriously starting to think that Yahtzee's anti-JRPG sentiment is starting to evolve into an ideology that he's never going to let go of no matter what.

Case in point: Demon's Souls. That game is totally different from most other JRPGs yet Yahtzee barely acknowledged the existence of this fact, IF AT ALL.

PayJ567:All JRPG's should be called "stupid gay rubbish" I must admit I did laugh at this.

I didn't. Even if he hates JRPGs, Yahtzee can come up with something more mature and clever than that. Those miserable retards that leave comments on GameTrailers that I keep complaining about? Yeah they use those three words every time they bitch about a game being on a console they don't own or like. So do the spammers on GameFAQs.

I'm starting to think Yahtzee is loosing his edge. Really, REALLY starting to loose his edge.

Oh BTW Yahtzee, hasn't Earthbound taught you anything? Not all JRPGs have the "androgynous angsty cunt" of a protagonist. Just a good chunk of them. I blame that factor on the creator of Naruto for creating Sasuke Uchiha: The poster boy for that character archetype.

Even when all my weeaboo friends were gushing like little girls over Sepheroth, I thought Final Fantasy 7 was boring and incomprehensible.

Oh yeah I forgot. He and the rest of the FF7 cast are also to blame for this archetype becoming popular.

Here too I don't agree with everything that was said but I definitely agree that Yahtzee may be starting to lose his edge.

JRPGs, for example, could be easily reclassified as 'Stupid Gay Rubbish'.

I could not agree with you more. How does anybody actually stay awake for the entire game? I tried playing one of the Final Fantasy games at a friends house- don't even remember which one, but my only reaction after about twenty minutes was 'bored bored bored'.

I agree that the classic genres are far too general for this day and age, where most titles have elements from several different types of game.

>Plays one Final Fantasy game, probably FF8 too>thinks he's in a position to criticize the whole genre

I think you've described about 90% of the people on this site. Hell I think you've described Yahtzee himself.

Sounds correct. If I have one major complaint with Escapists it's the hatred of the RPGs from the East. (I refuse to use WRPG and JRPG as terms, as they are meaningless). I enjoyed FFVIII a lot though.

OP: RPGs should be classified as they were in the past:ARPG (Action RPG), SRPG (Strategy RPG)[Tactical RPG is also acceptable], MMORPG, Classical RPG...

Hybrids can be denoted as well, like Borderlands and Mass Effect (neither of which are true RPGs, but are RPG/Shooters).

The only confused thing is the terms WRPG and JRPG which are too broad, tell us nothing of gameplay type, tell us nothing except generalized preconceived ideas that some people (that all seem to be here on the Escapist) have. As opposed to popular belief, not all RPGs from the East are turn-based, for example.

The whole JRPG / WRPG debate stems forth (as was correctly pointed out by a fellow Escapist) from the past when they were called Console RPG and PC RPG. It was stupid then too.

LordSnakeEyes:1- So I'm not the only one worried gaming nomenclature becoming too wide in it's definitions...

Do we really want to go in the opposite direction? How many music acts use three or more adjectives to describe their genre? Seems especially prominent in my favourite genres: metal and goth. Or maybe the more marginal you are, the more words you use to describe yourself.

Anyway, classifying genre is something we librarians have wrestled with since day one, and we end up having to do whatever the big book sellers and publishers do anyway, since they have a much, much larger marketing budget.

LordSnakeEyes:3- (slightly out of Topic) If "everyone" (I realize that is a generalization) keeps complaining about the three-legged post-trauma ahsmatic dog that is JRPGs, how do they still sell!? And most of all, how do Japanese developpers not notice their games are somewhat broken and need fixing(IE to be neutered)?

Anime/manga fans buy them. Like a few female coworkers of mine who loved Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts, and can occasionally be coaxed into a game of Rock Band, but otherwise couldn't care less about FPSes, action-adventurers, fighting games, etc. Scan the video game reviews section of the Anime News Network; over half the games reviewed are JRPGs or J-RTSes.

It does indeed seem that the anime/JRPG fan part of the gaming community doesn't get all that much representation on the Escapist. I'd say that a good example of this is the Escapists review of Blazblue. This is a VERY anime influenced game and yet the so called review of it on this site, and the video supplement in particular, was done with so much ham-handedness that it's not even funny. By comparison the review and video review of Blazblue at 1UP.com is done much better. It's unfortunate because this site is supposed to be a mouthpiece for the gaming generation but it seems that it's only a mouthpiece for certain parts of the gaming generation.

Even when all my weeaboo friends were gushing like little girls over Sepheroth, I thought Final Fantasy 7 was boring and incomprehensible.

Oh yeah I forgot. He and the rest of the FF7 cast are also to blame for this archetype becoming popular.

Which is odd, because they... don't really fit the archetype too much. There's very little actual angst in FF7. FF6 had more actually, though in that case it was mostly centered on two girls (Terra and Celes). Technically Cyan, Locke, and ESPECIALLY Shadow had their share too.

As I mentioned before anti-JRPG sentiment seems to be turning into ideology. Or perhaps in other words it seems to be taking on a "reality be damned" aspect.

But ultimately I think this debate about the nature of RPGs is pointless. It would seem that there has never been any really clear cut definition of what an RPG actually is. Even Yahtzee seems to acknowledge as much:

"But the worst of these is "role-playing game," and the fact that its definition has never been particularly clear doesn't help."

Without any solid factual foundation the debate is always going to come down to personal opinions with no one really being right or wrong. So I guess the only real solution is too just move on to the next issue.

Woodsey:I've never understood the JRPG naming, but RPGs have always clearly been the likes of KotOR, Mass Effect, Oblivion, etc.

... if Role Playing Games had been invented in 2000.

Where were you for Ultima? Wizardry? Bard's Tale? 1980's-era D&D computer games?

Go back to those, then have a look at Japanese series that started around the same time ... stuff like Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior. The thing is that both the Japanese industry leaders and the fans themselves FREAK OUT when things change, so they're just playing high-tech rehashes of the exact same thing 30 years later.

Woodsey:I've never understood the JRPG naming, but RPGs have always clearly been the likes of KotOR, Mass Effect, Oblivion, etc.

... if Role Playing Games had been invented in 2000.

Where were you for Ultima? Wizardry? Bard's Tale? 1980's-era D&D computer games?

Go back to those, then have a look at Japanese series that started around the same time ... stuff like Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior. The thing is that both the Japanese industry leaders and the fans themselves FREAK OUT when things change, so they're just playing high-tech rehashes of the exact same thing 30 years later.

PS I just made myself feel goddamned old.

Alright, I'll tackle this with bullet points.

- I'm 15

- I'm not one for sitting in sweaty backrooms rolling dice anyway, had I been around at the time

- KotOR, ME, Oblivion have all developed from there; I was just giving examples of WRPGs

- KotOR uses stats/skills/feats/virtual dice rolls/etc.: it is what you've described pretty much (it even uses D&D rules!)

- JRPGs follow almost nothing that WRPGs use, so it makes absolutely no sense that we then label them RPGs

Woodsey:I've never understood the JRPG naming, but RPGs have always clearly been the likes of KotOR, Mass Effect, Oblivion, etc.

... if Role Playing Games had been invented in 2000.

Where were you for Ultima? Wizardry? Bard's Tale? 1980's-era D&D computer games?

Go back to those, then have a look at Japanese series that started around the same time ... stuff like Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior. The thing is that both the Japanese industry leaders and the fans themselves FREAK OUT when things change, so they're just playing high-tech rehashes of the exact same thing 30 years later.

PS I just made myself feel goddamned old.

Alright, I'll tackle this with bullet points.

- I'm 15

- I'm not one for sitting in sweaty backrooms rolling dice anyway, had I been around at the time

- KotOR, ME, Oblivion have all developed from there; I was just giving examples of WRPGs

- KotOR uses stats/skills/feats/virtual dice rolls/etc.: it is what you've described pretty much (it even uses D&D rules!)

- JRPGs follow almost nothing that WRPGs use, so it makes absolutely no sense that we then label them RPGs

I really hope that you're kidding. Things like stats, skills, and the like are indeed used among JRPGs, albeit perhaps differently in many instances. So JRPGs are not RPGs because they are different from Western RPGs? That's pure opinion. As I pointed out before even Yahtzee has acknowledged that role playing games have never had a clear defintion.

You're certainly entitled to your beliefs and opinions. But please don't try to pass them off as fact, reason, and/or logic. It's not fair and it's not nice.

Woodsey:JRPGs follow almost nothing that WRPGs use, so it makes absolutely no sense that we then label them RPGs

Oh yeah I totally forgot that JRPGs give you a party of characters to manage, challenge you to min/max your gear and stats, offer some kind of quest to complete in a sci-fi or fantasy setting ... that's totally different from all the big western-made RPG's like Doom, Flight Simulator, and The Sims.

Seriously, what are these differences supposed to be that you're talking about?