You keep stating "my technicians". Do you own a projector repair business?

The company who built my home theater and is doing the rewiring and installation of the new projector employs an excellent team of designers, engineers, project managers, installers, programmers, calibrators, IT and Networking professionals, service managers etc. They do everything from smaller theaters to the new Imax private theaters. I can't tell you the exact title of the professionals who were assigned to test and trouble shoot the problems with my JVC Projector at their local facility and communicating with JVC about it, but without knowing this I referred to them as "technicians". Hope this clears that up

The company who built my home theater and is doing the rewiring and installation of the new projector employs an excellent team of designers, engineers, project managers, installers, programmers, calibrators, IT and Networking professionals, service managers etc. They do everything from smaller theaters to the new Imax private theaters. I can't tell you the exact title of the professionals who were assigned to test and trouble shoot the problems with my JVC Projector at their local facility and communicating with JVC about it, but without knowing this I referred to them as "technicians". Hope this clears that up

I'll give a quick recap - a Cliff Notes version - of my situation that I've spread throughout multiple threads in the process of asking my arguably inane questions:),

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooddoc

Seriously though, this is a living room. Like one of those real "living" rooms. Young kids, wife - you know, your typical space invaders . Now, having said that, I do get my movie nights on occasion where reference level audio and bat cave conditions prevail . But this has got to be a do-it-all setup.

That's why I would be going with a Black Diamond 1.4 screen and nice Carada Masquerade masking system - because, well, it's really freaking cool . I'm being told that the screen should work well in my space even with lights on. I admit though, I have my reservations about that. My wife will be very unhappy to watch a washed out picture after viewing a professionally calibrated Pioneer KRP-600M for the past years.

My other option is to recess a motorized BD into my ceiling and drop it down in front of the plasma and use the PJ for movies and selected HD tv only. The downside to that is two-fold. One is that I don't get masking for 2.35 in that scenario, and two, if I ever build a dedicated theater the fixed screen works in that scenario but the motorized not so much.

But considering every bit of feedback to this point has been, paraphrasing, "I'd never go back to a small screen", I'm slowly gaining the confidence to just take the plasma off the wall and put the screen up.

Room:

Also, to be clear, this room contains the ONLY TV in my home. So not only is the room a bit challenging, but "light control" and "kids and wife" and "low viewing hours" are generally incompatible concepts

But regardless, I was nearing the decision point of jumping feet first with the fixed screen and masking system to replace the plasma due to comments like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardoski

Well my setup is a dedicated room, it has total light control, so that is a big consideration at least for these projectors. I mean the size and quality of the image is so good you will wonder how you ever watched a TV. Not even the performance of the Panasonic VT60 I looked at could get me to switch back. Watching football or movies on a large screen is pure movie nirvana. If you have a proper viewing environment do it.

When I started getting comments like these,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S

While I'd never go back to small screen to watch films on, I wouldn't restrict myself to using a projector for day to day viewing either: Whatever the dealer says a BD will still look somewhat washed out with lights on compared to a plasma, projectors don't like being turned on and off for short periods either as it's better to leave it on if you plan to use it again within an hour or two. Plus I don't really want to watch things like the news, chat shows, etc in cinema size, after a while seeing everything that big will mean that films on the big screen won't seem 'special'.

Just my take on it and why I still have a fairly basic, but serviceable, 40" TV for day to day use (especially since much of the time it's on and no one is really watching it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonStatt

I think this is a great idea. I don't personally think that projectors are viable for everyday usage although I know some do use it that way. It isn't just the bulb consumption but projectors do have panel mutation that gets progressively worse as the projector ages. While this should be fixable with calibration for a good few thousand hours, it has been found that once the mutation gets too bad, that it becomes impossible to fix, or the sacrifices are too great (loss of contrast, posterisation etc). I think having the projector as a primary is for those wealthy enough to change their projector every year or two at most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonStatt

Indeed, others call it panel aging...but I call it panel mutation which is my own label for it.

This is not just confined to JVCs but also Sony's do it. As Kelvin suggests, the changes in older models was far more radical. Gamma droop was a part of it, but also there are certain changes to the colour filters which mean that it may become harder to achieve Rec.709 as well. Like Kelvin, I have the 2013 model now, an X75, and the mutation is radically decreased, but I still see some changes. Right now we are at the 300-400 hour mark, and we don't know how much change there will be at 2000 hours. If you are using it every day, 2000 hours is not that hard to achieve. While it will take me many years to hit 2000 hours with my usage, and therefore a non-issue, I just feel it is taking a gamble on how the projector will age if you are using it everyday. If money is no object then its irrelevant, but if the projector is intended to be kept for 5 years for example, I would be very hesitant.

Incidentally JVC do not deny the existence of this phenomenon. In fact they advertise the auto calibration feature as a way to help offset it. Notice in the marketing they refer to the use of calibration as the projector ages and distinctly not say as the bulb ages.

That gave me pause and I had to start rethinking the motorized retractable, which is a less desirable option from a PQ perspective. Besides, I really, really, really(did I mention really?) want that super cool masking system (I know, I sound like my kids ). And not just because it's really super cool, but because I know it will give me the image I want. Also, the fixed screen is definitely usable if I ever get a dedicated theater room built, whereas the motorized is not.

At this point in the process it seems both the fixed mask and motorized retractable options have fatal(in my current view of the situation) drawbacks. So I'm stuck at an impasse. I can't seem to pick my poison .

That gave me pause and I had to start rethinking the motorized retractable, which is a less desirable option from a PQ perspective. Besides, I really, really, really(did I mention really?) want that super cool masking system (I know, I sound like my kids ). And not just because it's really super cool, but because I know it will give me the image I want. Also, the fixed screen is definitely usable if I ever get a dedicated theater room built, whereas the motorized is not.

At this point in the process it seems both the fixed mask and motorized retractable options have fatal(in my current view of the situation) drawbacks. So I'm stuck at an impasse. I can't seem to pick my poison .

There are several options for motorized retractable screens with masking systems. I know Seymour AV makes one. You can do a 2.35:1 screen with side masking to 16:9, or. 16:9 screen with top masking to 2.35:1. I believe Da-Lite and/or Stewart has a similar system.

Why not just get a nice pull down or electric screen, and ceiling mount the projector. You don't have to break the bank and it will serve the dual purpose. You can make a poor mans masking system by going to Home Depot and having a black window shade built to match your screen size and mount it the underside of the screen works great for constant width.

Sorry for the late reply but I kind of saw this briefly when you posted and then forgot about it.

For those not familiar with the Radiance (not you, Kelvin ) who would like to try this tip to show level 17-18 with a JVC, first display a pattern that shows all the levels near black, from your primary source (BD player for most, mine is an HTPC). An excellent and free option is the brightness pattern from the AVS HD disc, but there are others. This one is one of my favourites because it clearly displays levels 2-25 with blinking bars, so it's very readable (and confusion free for the newbie). I use HDMI standard, so both brightness and contrast on the JVC are at zero. I find it preferable to use a pattern from the source because you are sure that way that you are adjusting for the actual content, not for the internal Lumagen patterns.

Then you have to go (using the Lumagen remote) to Menu, Output, CMS's, select your CMS, then grey/gamma, 21 points (or whatever you use, be careful though as changing the number of points resets all the values). Then the point selected is 21. You need to go up arrow once to select point 1, which defaults to IRE 0, then move right arrow twice to select the luma value, and up arrow 2-3 times to raise the luma for IRE 0 until 17 just barely shows. Mine is 000.3, yours might be slightly less or slightly more. Make sure you do not raise your black level going higher than necessary. You want to show 18, and barely show 17. If in doubt, play it safe with the lower value. Better not to show 17 than to raise your black level and kill your on/off contrast.

To check you haven't raised your black level, simply display a full field black pattern and press hide on the remote. There shouldn't be any difference. If the pattern is brighter when you unhide, you have raised your black level so you need to re-do the procedure and lower the luma value.

If you're happy with the results, save the changes in the Lumagen menu.
If you have made a mistake or are not sure, simply power the Radiance off without saving, then back on.
In any case, any change made in the gamma table will be erased during the next auto cal session, so you will have to make the changes again then. It takes only a few seconds once you're used to doing it.

I hope I'm not boring everyone, but as I see many complaints about crushed black levels, this is a solution that works on many models, as long as you have a Radiance of course. Hopefully it will also work with the new models.

If you try please let us know if it works for you.

Wow… I almost missed this little tip Manni and I'm glad I read thru it because this is not how I set black (and white) to view 17 on AVS709 disc. I use the black level function based on the input I save based on resolution. Is not not correct??

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll give a quick recap - a Cliff Notes version - of my situation that I've spread throughout multiple threads in the process of asking my arguably inane questions:),
Room:

Also, to be clear, this room contains the ONLY TV in my home. So not only is the room a bit challenging, but "light control" and "kids and wife" and "low viewing hours" are generally incompatible concepts

But regardless, I was nearing the decision point of jumping feet first with the fixed screen and masking system to replace the plasma due to comments like this:
When I started getting comments like these,

That gave me pause and I had to start rethinking the motorized retractable, which is a less desirable option from a PQ perspective. Besides, I really, really, really(did I mention really?) want that super cool masking system (I know, I sound like my kids ). And not just because it's really super cool, but because I know it will give me the image I want. Also, the fixed screen is definitely usable if I ever get a dedicated theater room built, whereas the motorized is not.

At this point in the process it seems both the fixed mask and motorized retractable options have fatal(in my current view of the situation) drawbacks. So I'm stuck at an impasse. I can't seem to pick my poison .

Hello Goddoc....I was in a similar situation to you...my DIY solution.....CIH Plus masking using motorised roller blind..

Bigger screen blocked L & R audio solution:

May the success of a Nation be judged not by its collective wealth nor by its power, but by the contentment of its people.Hiran J Wijeyesekera - 1985.

Wow… I almost missed this little tip Manni and I'm glad I read thru it because this is not how I set black (and white) to view 17 on AVS709 disc. I use the black level function based on the input I save based on resolution. Is not not correct??

Hi Kevin,

I had to look back into the email conversation I had with Jim Petersen (CEO of Lumagen) last April - possibly around the time I discussed the subject with Kelvin - to remember why I ruled this out when I was looking for a solution to resolve this.
The problem when I tried the black level control (which was an obvious first or second port of call) was that the control was too coarse in my setup to resolve 17 without raising my black level and therefore killing my on/off contrast. So a similar issue as the JVC brightness control.
Again, the advantage of the IRE0 solution is that it acts like a brightness control with a very fine resolution, and it's applied for all the sources using that CMS, which is fine as the crush is caused by the display, not the sources.
I doubled checked with Jim that I wasn't doing anything stupid, and here is our last exchange on the subject (I omitted a bit in his reply for confidentiality reasons):Me: I have found another solution for the black level issue. If I raise the first control point (0IRE) in the gamma settings from 0 to 000.3, I get 17 back without raising my black level. Unless you can think of a downside when doing this after a cube autocal (as the CMS is reset by the autocal, so it can’t be done before), it seems like a preferable solution as it can apply to all my sources and not only the HTPC.Jim: There is no downside to using the output CMS black level [...]. So sounds like a good solution.

If the input black level works for you without raising your black level, by all means use it. But I checked with my light meter (the "hide" tip is only an approximation for a semi-obvious level change) and there was no way I could use that control with my primary source to resolve 17 without also raising the black level and killing my on/off.

So get your meter out, and when you resolve 17 using the black level control, check that it doesn't kill your on/off. If it doesn't keep doing it that way, it's a fine solution and you are right, I should have mentioned it. If it does, try my IRE0 tip .

By the way, the other solution I am referring to in my email to Jim was raising the contrast to 101% in the AMD driver of my HTPC, which wasn't ideal as it was clipping whites even more than it does (it's correct setting is 99% to resolve up to 235), and only worked for the HTPC obviously.

This makes me think that you can also try to raise contrast in the display (if that doesn't lead to clipping white below 235) as contrast has a significant influence on the black levels in the JVCs (and many other displays). Won't work with HDMI standard (will clip white below 235), but this might be a reason why using HDMI enhanced (and still resolving 16-235) can be a solution - especially for those without a Radiance - as you have more leeway with the contrast control, therefore can resolve 17 playing on contrast to fine tune the black levels if the right spot sits between two levels of the brightness control, as it usually does. Unfortunately that doesn't work well if you use Calman JVC autocal as it requires contrast and brightness to be both set at 0 to work well. Hence the standard HDMI / brightness and contrast at 0 and IRE0 trick I have decided to settle on, as it follows the KISS principle we both like .

The HDMI issue can be corrected with a firmware update. The projectors do not have to be opened up for any change needing to be made. This information came to me through an email I received from JVC.

Of course it is updatable with firmware. JVC do not make their own HDMI chips, so having a design faulty chip would be near impossible. HDMI issues are well known in the industry because the standard is a shambles and stinks. JVC are no stranger to HDMI issues and have issued firmware updates before (remember the HDMI handshakes that would actually cause the projector to crash completely requiring a hot plug pull with the bulb on?). The only question in my mind was whether there were two layers of firmware update, one which required special flashing equipment at a service centre (like the 3D update from last year). But based on your comment and historical updates from JVC for HDMI issues, I am fairly confident we will see an update within a week or two at most.

I have helped JVC test firmware updates before they release it into the wild, and I was getting nightly updates at the time. So be sure the Japanese team will be responsive in resolving this.

I'll give a quick recap - a Cliff Notes version - of my situation that I've spread throughout multiple threads in the process of asking my arguably inane questions:),
Room:

Also, to be clear, this room contains the ONLY TV in my home. So not only is the room a bit challenging, but "light control" and "kids and wife" and "low viewing hours" are generally incompatible concepts

But regardless, I was nearing the decision point of jumping feet first with the fixed screen and masking system to replace the plasma due to comments like this:
When I started getting comments like these,

That gave me pause and I had to start rethinking the motorized retractable, which is a less desirable option from a PQ perspective. Besides, I really, really, really(did I mention really?) want that super cool masking system (I know, I sound like my kids ). And not just because it's really super cool, but because I know it will give me the image I want. Also, the fixed screen is definitely usable if I ever get a dedicated theater room built, whereas the motorized is not.

At this point in the process it seems both the fixed mask and motorized retractable options have fatal(in my current view of the situation) drawbacks. So I'm stuck at an impasse. I can't seem to pick my poison .

There is another option if you want to go totally projector, in part suggested by my honourable friend above! Have two projectors stacked on top of each other. One is used for daily TV watching and is a cheaper projector that also uses DLP or LED lighting mechanisms so that you don't have aging issues to worry about. And then keep the JVC for the all important calibrated mind blowing Blu-ray. This is actually likely to be a cheaper and easier option than motorised lifts for panels etc.

I must be honest, for my next screen, I am sorely tempted to have one of those amazing masking systems

That gave me pause and I had to start rethinking the motorized retractable, which is a less desirable option from a PQ perspective. Besides, I really, really, really(did I mention really?) want that super cool masking system (I know, I sound like my kids tongue.gifbiggrin.gif). And not just because it's really super cool, but because I know it will give me the image I want. Also, the fixed screen is definitely usable if I ever get a dedicated theater room built, whereas the motorized is not.

I don't know why an electric screen is less desirable PQ wise. I have two ( that eliminated the need for masking, and is even cooler than masking ) !!

My Stewart rep told me about a guy that saved for years for a new StudioTek 130 G3 fixed screen. Not long after he installed it, his kids drew on it with crayons.

My daughter when she was around 3, drew all over the walls and a leather couch with pencil, crayon and ink. She switched from crayon and pencil to ink for the leather couch. Ink showed up much better. She is 19 now.

But then...a couple months ago, a teeny, tiny bug landed on my screen. It looked like one of those bugs that could leave a gooey gob on my screen. So I tried to blow it off, shoe it away, and when I tried to shoe it away with a super soft duster, it simply mushed into the screen! Just a teeny little dark dot. I thought "Ok, what do I do? Do I live with that little dot, probably never seeing it from my viewing position, but knowing it's there? No."

So I looked up all the cleaning instructions for the Stewart screen, took the lightest bit of warm water on the softest cloth and tried to lightly dab the mushed insect away.

It just seemed to sort of spread instead of disappear. Yikes! As delicately as humanly possible, I applied the damp cloth lightly to the area until it seemed the darkness was gone.
Then I stood back, and saw there was a fist sized area of dampness/darkness in that location. I thought "well, ok, it's still damp a tiny bit, it will dry and the screen will be pristine."

Nope. Never changed. It has remained a slightly darker area on the screen ever since! And yes I could see it in bright areas when I looked for it! Damn, just how delicate ARE these screens?

Anyway, my saving grace is that: 1. it is not a really obvious dim spot and: 2. I vary my image size and shape constantly. The spot is about 1/4 ways in from the sides of a 102" framed 16:9 image. If I always left the image the same size and shape, I'd always know exactly where that spot was in relation to the screen and movie image. But since the frame size is always changing, I can never remember where it is, and don't ever notice it.

Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5The HDMI issue can be corrected with a firmware update. The projectors do not have to be opened up for any change needing to be made. This information came to me through an email I received from JVC.

Originally Posted by R HarknessI've been very careful in keeping my huge ST-130 screen clean and dust free.

But then...a couple months ago, a teeny, tiny bug landed on my screen. It looked like one of those bugs that could leave a gooey gob on my screen. So I tried to blow it off, shoe it away, and when I tried to shoe it away with a super soft duster, it simply mushed into the screen! Just a teeny little dark dot. I thought "Ok, what do I do? Do I live with that little dot, probably never seeing it from my viewing position, but knowing it's there? No."

So I looked up all the cleaning instructions for the Stewart screen, took the lightest bit of warm water on the softest cloth and tried to lightly dab the mushed insect away.

It just seemed to sort of spread instead of disappear. Yikes! As delicately as humanly possible, I applied the damp cloth lightly to the area until it seemed the darkness was gone.
Then I stood back, and saw there was a fist sized area of dampness/darkness in that location. I thought "well, ok, it's still damp a tiny bit, it will dry and the screen will be pristine."

Nope. Never changed. It has remained a slightly darker area on the screen ever since! And yes I could see it in bright areas when I looked for it! Damn, just how delicate ARE these screens?

Anyway, my saving grace is that: 1. it is not a really obvious dim spot and: 2. I vary my image size and shape constantly. The spot is about 1/4 ways in from the sides of a 102" framed 16:9 image. If I always left the image the same size and shape, I'd always know exactly where that spot was in relation to the screen and movie image. But since the frame size is always changing, I can never remember where it is, and don't ever notice it.

I had to look back into the email conversation I had with Jim Petersen (CEO of Lumagen) last April [...]. So sounds like a good solution.

If the input black level works for you without raising your black level, by all means use it. But I checked with my light meter (the "hide" tip is only an approximation for a semi-obvious level change) and there was no way I could use that control with my primary source to resolve 17 without also raising the black level and killing my on/off.

So get your meter out, and when you resolve 17 using the black level control, check that it doesn't kill your on/off. If it doesn't keep doing it that way, it's a fine solution and you are right, I should have mentioned it. If it does, try my IRE0 tip .

This makes me think that you can also try to raise contrast in the display (if that doesn't lead to clipping white below 235) as contrast has a significant influence on the black levels in the JVCs (and many other displays). Won't work with HDMI standard (will clip white below 235), but this might be a reason why using HDMI enhanced (and still resolving 16-235) can be a solution - especially for those without a Radiance - as you have more leeway with the contrast control, therefore can resolve 17 playing on contrast to fine tune the black levels if the right spot sits between two levels of the brightness control, as it usually does. Unfortunately that doesn't work well if you use Calman JVC autocal as it requires contrast and brightness to be both set at 0 to work well. Hence the standard HDMI / brightness and contrast at 0 and IRE0 trick I have decided to settle on, as it follows the KISS principle we both like .

Thanks Manni I'll try that out to ensure my black floor remains in tact but just a stupid question… I get the hide mode Lux reading but when reading the AVS709 screen where should I position the meter (right over 17 bar)?

And the more I think about it in looking at the documentation I wonder if this is the best idea anyhow on the "input resolution" because I interpret that to mean say if I change it for 1080p/24 (which I did), and I'm watching DirecTV at 1080i60 if it wouldn't go back to the default black point (I think it would; no?).

If I entertain your IRE0 tip then are you saying this must be done after the AutoCal has updated the Radiances 21pt power curve?

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks Manni I'll try that out to ensure my black floor remains in tact but just a stupid question… I get the hide mode Lux reading but when reading the AVS709 screen where should I position the meter (right over 17 bar)?

And the more I think about it in looking at the documentation I wonder if this is the best idea anyhow on the "input resolution" because I interpret that to mean say if I change it for 1080p/24 (which I did), and I'm watching DirecTV at 1080i60 if it wouldn't go back to the default black point (I think it would; no?).

If I entertain your IRE0 tip then are you saying this must be done after the AutoCal has updated the Radiances 21pt power curve?

Hi Kevin,

When using the meter, you need to display a full field black pattern, measure it, press hide, measure it, and make sure the reading doesn't drop significantly. Same as with your eyes, except the meter will detect smaller variations.
Get the meter close to the projector (facing the PJ with a diffuser) so that your black level readings are as high as possible if your light meter isn't sensitive enough to read your black levels off the screen reliably (most aren't).
The meter has to be on a tripod, as you can't move the meter between the measurements (even just a little) to be able to compare the levels.
And yes, I think your change has to be done for each resolution for each input for each source (although you might be able to copy it), while if you use just one CMS for all with the IRE0 tip you just need to change it once and it will be applied to all the modes/input/sources/resolutions using that CMS.
Yes it has to be done after the autocal as the autocal resets the CMS when doing the 21 steps greyscale.
If you decide to use the IRE 0 tip anyway, you don't really need a meter, just make sure that level 16 (black) doesn't start to blink and that the luma of the background isn't raised. 17 should just be just barely visible. 18 should be visible. If 17 is clearly visible (especially from a distance), you are most likely raising your black level.

My Stewart rep told me about a guy that saved for years for a new StudioTek 130 G3 fixed screen. Not long after he installed it, his kids drew on it with crayons.

This is why I will be making panels (AT fabric with a printed panorama) to install over my fixed AT screen when not in use -- some protection from my 2 year old I hope, plus it should hide the screen in this multipurpose room. AT fabric for the panels so that I can still listen to music.

Obviously, one should watch the Epson and Benq threads for that and not the JVC threads.

Seriously, one does have a choice, real 4K or e-shift. And e shift does give one a lot of the benefits of true 4K at a fraction of the price. So its a very valid question and one that requires watching the JVC thread for trusted member evaluations of e shift 4K. I made my choice two years ago and purchased the Sony 1000ES. But that choice involved a lot more than true 4K vs e shift. The Sony is a lot more expensive and is a better higher quality machine than even the top of the line JVC if you discard native contrast. But the JVCs are fine machines and at street they become affordable for many and given them a taste of a lot more pixels appearing at their eyes. That said, if you can afford it, go for the Sonys.

I made my choice two years ago and purchased the Sony 1000ES. But that choice involved a lot more than true 4K vs e shift. The Sony is a lot more expensive and is a better higher quality machine than even the top of the line JVC if you discard native contrast. But the JVCs are fine machines and at street they become affordable for many and given them a taste of a lot more pixels appearing at their eyes. That said, if you can afford it, go for the Sonys.

Mark how do you compare the "new" cheaper 4K Sony to say a X900, would you think it would still be better?

Most people look for the best blacks, what are the things that the Sony has to offer that makes you prepared to sacrifice native contrast?

You don't have a huge screen so it cant be the extra lumens the Sony has over the JVCs.