The mayor of Gilberton, Pennsylvania is standing by her city’s police chief despite a series of profanity-laced and threatening videos.

In a video that has received wide attention, police chief Mark Kessler repeatedly tells those upset by his use of profanity to “go f*ck yourself” as he fires various automatic weapons.

… Tuesday on his Facebook page, Kessler called for a massive rally to “show these tyrants we will not stand for any more violations on our constitution or our freedoms.”

“I’m calling on all true Americans, all militia members, all true oath keepers to assemble, be ready to march on a tyrannical county government right here in Schuylkill county Pennsylvania, democrats are the true enemy of our country, our freedoms, our constitution, along with liberal news agency’s, liberal news reporters, much like hitlers nazis, time we clean these antiamerican thugs from office,” he wrote.

Did I mention that in addition to serving as Gilberton’s police chief, Kessler is also a member of the North Schuylkill School District’s board of education? Isn’t it lovely that the education of Schuylkill County’s children is being overseen by a man with such a shaky grasp of punctuation, history, law and reality?

Despite the ensuing media stir and calls to Borough Hall the video generated Tuesday, Mayor Mary Lou Hannon said she saw no reason to discipline Kessler, who said he made the video to draw attention to gun rights. Hannon noted he did it on his own time and violated no laws.

So it’s fine if the chief of police declares himself the sworn, violent enemy of half the citizens in your town — just so long as he did it on his own time.

Charles Hepler, school board president in the North Schuylkill School District, said he had not seen the video and declined to comment because it does not involve board business.

Again, Kessler wasn’t acting in his official capacity as a school-board member when he threatened the violent overthrow of the county government. He did that on his own time.

And besides, who better to help the school district formulate its anti-bullying program than an angry, violent man-child who has never outgrown his own need to be a schoolyard bully?

Kessler is also the founder/president/imperial grand wizard of something called “Constitutional Security Force” — a pseudo-militia dedicated to the Second Amendment, bad web design and CAPITAL LETTERS. I was both relieved and disappointed to see that the “Girls of the CSF Calandar” listed for sale from Kessler’s CSF site, is not yet available. All the link provides is this message: “For information on modeling for our calendar please email us.” (I mention this only to ridicule the ridiculous, not to highlight the enormous potential for righteous mischief.)

The links on Kessler’s website celebrate an array of racist, anti-Semitic and conspiratorial fringe groups from the radical right wing. Yet neither the mayor nor the school board president is in the least concerned that these views are held and promoted by Gilberton’s police chief and a member of that school board.

Gilberton is a five-minute drive from Shenandoah, a town still reeling from the 2009 arrest of four high school students who beat a man to death — a crime that town’s police chief eventually went to prison for attempting to cover up. Having witnessed such a thing so close to home, you’d think that Mayor Hannon and Board President Hepler would be a bit more concerned over Kessler’s erratic behavior, brutish ignorance and violent rhetoric.

But they’re not. Kessler is their guy.

At least once a week, some newspaper or magazine prints an article fretting about how young people may be damaging their future careers by carelessly posting on YouTube and other social media. Take another look at that profanity-laced video from “Chief” Kessler. Then look again at the links he endorses on his website. The kind of language and behavior in that video, and Kessler’s choice to associate himself with so many hateful groups seems far worse than the errors of judgment those articles warn young people against. In a sense, then, Kessler disproves all those articles. He shows that even someone as shamelessly disgraceful as “Chief” Mark Kessler can still get a job and even get elected to public office.

In 2011, while off duty in a bar, Kessler intervened in a fight and drew his weapon. He shot himself in the hand. “We’re not finding anything that leads to another gun being there,” a state police commander said at the time. “We’re finding there was one gun there and it was (Kessler’s).”

“…be ready to march on a tyrannical county government right here in Schuylkill county…”

“The mayor of Gilberton, Pennsylvania is standing by her city’s police chief…”

Under normal circumstances I would think that the mayor of a town in Schuylkill county would be one of the first against the wall when their county government is marched against. Um.

Kirala

Meh. Seems legit to me. Our city and county feud constantly; our county feuds with the state… in my limited experience, different levels of government usually get along about as well as any given level of government and the individual citizens therein. Which goes with Fred’s frequent point that “the government” is not a simple monolith in opposition to “the individual”.

reynard61

It’s probably an “I and my brother against my cousin”-type of mindset. Yet another symptom of the Tribal Identification syndrome that has infected American politics.

Matri

No no.

This is “I and my brother against my uncle’s sibling’s children” kind of thing.

The guy shot himself in the hand, for crying out loud.

Lori

Have you been reading GunFail over at Daily Kos? It’s filled with stories like that. These manly man 2nd Amendment worshipers are often embarrassingly inept with their beloved weapons

BaseDeltaZero

Have you been reading GunFail over at Daily Kos? It’s filled with stories like that. These manly man 2nd Amendment worshipers are often embarrassingly inept with their beloved weapons

Well, when one of your principles is ‘and we don’t need none of that ‘training’ nonsense!’…

Lori

And another is “anyone and everyone should be allowed to own whatever gun they want…”

Seriously, the number of kids who accidentally kill themselves or another child is so incredibly depressing I can’t even, but the stupid shit adults get up to is often morbidly funny.

Some 2nd Amendment “purist” suffers a self-inflicted gunshot wound to an extremity, the crotch or the ass on a pretty regular basis. As a percentage of gun owners these heirs of Wyatt Earp aren’t much, but they do still seem to indicate that some of the effort currently spent making sure that everyone and their dog is allowed to own an “assualt” weapon would be better directed at making sure the folks who already own guns have some clue how to handle them.

Everybodhi

In defense of Wyatt Earp, even he made them hand over their guns when they came into town and pick them up on their way out.

Mark Kawate

Yet far more able then the ill-trained police.

Mark Kawate

The federal government….

reynard61

I notice that he has the comments disabled in his little YouTube rant. Wassamatta “Chief”? Ya can dish the shit out but ya can’t take it?! Waste of ammo and skin. I’ll be damn surprised if he and the “Mayor” aren’t sharing a cell with his Shenandoah colleague inside of five years for some horrible race-related crime — or he’s nothing without a gun in his hand as most gun-worshippers are.

Emcee, cubed

So it’s late, and just finished spending all day on various planes. So rather than try and say anything of substance, I’ll just use the flimsy excuse to promote my favorite cabaret singer.

I have people in my own family who still proudly display bumper stickers and signs saying, “Vote Justice Roy Moore.” You know. The idiot who thinks that a failure of any courthouse to display a sectarian religious document like the 10 Commandments is somehow an infringement on everybody’s freedom of religion. (After all, everyone in America is a Christian. 25% of us are actually figments of your imagination.)

Baby_Raptor

That is a very big figment.

But at least we have good company in our nonexistence!

barnestormer

Roy Moore was re-elected in 2008!

Partly because his opposition was pulled from the ballot at the last minute by the Democratic Party for dropping too many racist or homophobic slurs (I forgot which one was the back-breaking straw). But he also has a lot of fans around here.

The_L1985

>.< Just what I needed to know.

eamonknight

This is why choosing police chiefs by popular election is a Really Bad Idea. See also: Joe Arpaio. Same thing goes for judges.

themunck

Indeed.

stardreamer42

I don’t disagree; however, having them appointed comes with its own, somewhat different set of problems.

Rowdy

Oh I see, you would rather they would be appointed by a corrupt progressive minded usurper of a political office. That is why we have elections, so that kind of crap can’t evolve. But YOU would end true freedom of choice by the people, and replace it with a dictatorial oligarchy. Yeah you got your crap together. It is exactly people like you that are the problem in this country today, and why he went off on a rant like he did. He is a patriot and loves our country and freedom and liberty, and can’t stand to see it destroyed by the libtards he is so mad at. I m sorry but other than the vile language he is spot on.

VMink

[ citation needed ]

Lori

You know, there are decaffeinated brands that taste just as good as the real thing.

Rowdy

I don’t drink coffee thank you.

Lori

Well then maybe you should start because something sure needs to change with you. You are wound way too tight.

Rowdy

Ran my own company for 40 years. I found that just about any problem can be solved if you try hard enough, persistent enough, or tried various solutions until you found the right combination to accomplish your goal. The only thing that I ever found that got me wound up to tight was dealing with stupidity.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Make up your mind. Is it that you were an EE, a Army Vet, a teacher, or what?

I still smell the manure here, y’know.

Lori

Man, there’s just nothing you can’t do. Fight a war. Build the internet. Run your own company. Become a Constitutional scholar. Save lives as a paramedic. All without ever encountering a problem you can’t fix because you’re just that special. You are truly an Alpha among Alpha males.

In case you can’t tell, I’m rolling my eyes are you.

Fanraeth

So you wind yourself up tight then?

Albanaeon

If dealing with stupidity winds you up, I would guess you’re wound up all the time, considering the profound lack of sense you comments have displayed.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Don’t be silly. Lacking self-awareness is one of those defining traits of his sort.

William Dhalgren

Just meth for you, then?

Jebhel

You mean he can’t stand a dissenting political view. Which makes him a fascist, not worthy living in a democracy. Definitely NOT a patriot.

Rowdy

Well the stupidity here astounds me. We do not live in a democracy. We live in a Constitutional Republic. There is a huge difference. But then a democracy probably fits your lifestyle better. Why don’t you move to somewhere that has a democracy, like Russia

No you idiot. it is not about a dissenting opinion. It is about people wanting to disassemble our country and make it like they want it. We have a Constitution, it defines the operating parameters for this country and that is a Constitutional Republic. If you do not want to live in a Constitutional Republic then go somewhere with a governmental system you prefer. It’s no fantasy it is the reality and you and your kind will soon be stripped of your fantasy world and have to live in the world of reality. Bet you can’t handle it. Think you can give it a try, just ask and you can come spend some time on the ranch. I will bet you can’t stand the reality of it for a week.

And don’t fuck with me, this little boy would kick your ass damn quick and hard. And I am 65 this year. Don’t think so you can give that a try as well.

taochiapet

and stay off my lawn, libtards!!!

Rowdy

Damn straight.

taochiapet

you better lay off the round-up, old man, it’s not like you’ve got a lot of time or brain cells left.

Lori

Good Lord, are you a doomsday prepper too? Is there any nutbar rightwing cliche that you aren’t going to claim?

Here’s the thing, I bet you couldn’t stand the reality of living in a city for a week, having to face actual human beings who aren’t just like you but also don’t fit your fantasies about the hordes out to destroy America.

It’s fine that you live where you want, although you certainly don’t seem to be a particularly happy person. However, where you live doesn’t make you special. You aren’t the Real America. It’s all real, including the places you don’t want to live and couldn’t handle.

Rowdy

You are such a fool. I lived in Denver from the time I got out of the service until years after I got my co. up. I have lived and worked in many of the large cities in the country and I deal with it just fine. In fact I was awarded several times for my outstanding ability to work with and resolve any problem with public clientele. I did trouble shooting for tracking systems and various computer and surveillance systems in casinos as well as industrial automated control systems, sensor and controls calibrations, and computer networks. The real issue today that really has me fired up and leaves me with little doubt that it will stay that way for some time yet is the hordes out to destroy America.

I am a very happy person for the most part. When I am not happy it is because I am dealing with an idiot or a group of people committing sedition against my country.

Lori

I’ve been to Denver. Nice city. Lots of different kinds of people, none of who seemed totally focused on destroying America. (Some of the folks in Colorado Springs, sure, but not the folks in Denver.) If you lived there for so long and managed so well where did you get your idiotic notions about the country being under siege?

If you ran your own company exactly who was awarding you for your problem-solving?

And of course you were in surveillance. At least you weren’t a bodyguard. Does Brad Thor know about you?

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I did trouble shooting for tracking systems and various computer and surveillance systems in casinos as well as industrial automated control systems, sensor and controls calibrations, and computer networks.

The fact that you wrote this with a degree of clarity unusual for you, judging from your no-paragraphing, uninformed ranting about the US polity and society, suggests you lifted that all off someone’s resume without even understanding what all those words are.

You do know that industrial automated systems and controls are a pretty different beast than casino surveillance and back-end hardware + software for such?

And you’ve already proven you’re at the very least incompetent if not an outright liar about your facility with computer networks, judging from the fact that you didn’t even seem to grasp how the commenting system on this blog worked, Mr. I did Arpanetting since 1972.

Hint: It’s like Usenet, assuming you ever even legitimately subscribed and posted to newsgroups.

B Wolfe

Ok, after all the stuff I read that you have said I had to stop that you were awarded for solving problems…riiiiiight.

You and your kind just want to kill some libtards. That is all you want to do is kill. All the while hiding behind your rhetoric to justify it.

TheBCow

Ya see, you’re losing troll points there. You’re bringing out the internet tough guy play book too early, You’re supposed to wait before claiming to have all kinds of “manly” jobs and then threaten somebody on the internet with violence. This is going to cost you serious points in the medal tally.

BTW, “Constitutional Republic” means a country with a Constitution that is not a monarchy, not “country that implements the policies I like.”

Examples of constitutional republics besides the United States: China, North Korea, Iran, North Korea and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

Countries that are not Constitutional Republics that still do a pretty good job at preserving freedom and democracy: The United Kingdom, Japan, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.*

*(It should be noted that I could do this list to give the exact opposite impression, almost as if being a republic/not a republic is not actually super important to a free and democratic government)

Lori

To be fair, he gets a half point for not claiming to have been a SEAL.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Even Chris Hadrick stuck to just claiming he was a veterinarian, and then changing it to being a UPS truck driver.

Lori

I thought he said he was a bike messenger? Did I remember that wrong or was that in addition to being a vet and a UPS guy?

Rowdy

Anyone that does not have some diversity in their life is a fool and a seriously lazy boring piece of crap. Sounds to me like your a little jealous when you meet someone that has made some accomplishments in their life. Hard work and diligence never hurt anyone, laziness does every day.

Rowdy

Nope was a Ranger.

Lori

Of course.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

At the rate this fish story is going, I expect he’ll be a Power Ranger.

Emcee, cubed

Examples of constitutional republics besides the United States: China, North Korea, Iran, North Korea and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

And since he made this claim earlier, you know who else is a constitutional republic? Russia. Their constitution states that they are a federation and semi-presidential republic. It also sets up three separate branches of government. In fact, aside from the fact that they separate out the head of state and the head of government, their governmental structure is pretty similar to what it is in the US.

Oh, and then there’s his false claim that democracy and constitutional republic are somehow different. He wants to create a definition of democracy that doesn’t exist in reality. No country is run as a true democracy, because it is practical. It would require a national referendum for everything the government did. Every law passed, every dollar spent. It just isn’t possible. So we, and other countries, have a representative democracy, or a republic.(To make it clear, those two things are the same. It isn’t one or the other. It is that one is just a different name for the other.) Most of the countries you listed are in fact republics, just not constitutional republics. A republic or a constitutional republic is just a type of democracy.

BaseDeltaZero

So we, and other countries, have a representative democracy, or a republic.(To make it clear, those two things are the same. It isn’t one or the other. It is that one is just a different name for the other.)

Not necessarily. A republic can also be an oligarchy, where the government/party/clerics/whatever choose the government. North Korea is really an absolute monarchy in all but name, but China, Iran, and even, say, Renaissance Florence are all good examples of this kind of republic. The main distinction is whether governance is considered private (as in the case of monarchies/pure dictatorships. The nation is literally *owned* by the king or whatever), or public (where the government represents a construct known as ‘the state’, rather than a particular family or individual. At least in theory.) There’s also the stratocracy/junta, where the government is essentially a branch of the military, but that’s a digression…

Donalbain

Also worth noting that the UK is a representative democracy, but not a republic.

Rowdy

You are wrong cubed. Not going to try to argue with you stupid assed jerks any more. Stay stupignorant and see if I care. When the SHTF I hope you run out in front of the forces yeling stop stop this is a democracy.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

If the shit hits the fan, the pitiful resistance you’ll put up will ensure you live just long enough to hold the door for us wherever we go from there. I don’t think you’ve thought out the heroic freedom fighter thing very carefully, namely what kind of life you’d expect to have if everything really did go all Mad Max on us. Oh, sure, you have your spiffy bunker with an actual working generator and a year’s worth of canned food, rice and dried beans (I’m partial to lentils myself) and Genuine-Not-A-Fraud brand dehydrated water (just add water) and all the guns you can shake a stick at (or poke a stick down into, if that’s your thing)…

But where do you go from there? Will you raise grandchildren children in a perilous wasteland of neighbor-eat-neighbor apocalyptic dystopia? Do you foresee the arts ever returning to a world where the most well-armed scavenger is top contender? Is the ideal government one where the biggest gang murders any dissenters, or are you just counting on Jesus showing up and Rapturing his 144,000 singing virgins away and leaving you with an ideal one world faithful union in the wake of pipe bombs and automatic rifles?

See, this is where you’ve gone off the rails. It’s not about who’s got the best survival prep, it’s about never needing it. All the people fingering their glock 39s and H&K 36s are doing is just fomenting (and fermenting) a bad end for everyone. There is no world, no possible paradigm, where people like you come out on top. Maybe the government is corrupt and maybe we go the way of North Korea, but even that’s a better outcome than mutually assured destruction. The world we should be working toward is not the one where you finally get to put a round in the annoying kid across the street and take his stuff. That’s the kind of thing complete lunatics fantasize about.

Bottom line: You’re part of the problem, not the solution.

Jenny Islander

Yes, this!

If you’re really concerned about TEOTWAWKI, SHTF, insert acronym here, have you gotten to know your neighbors–even if they are brown or talk funny? Do you know which of your neighbors has up-to-date first aid training? How about small engine repair? Clothing repair? Clothing production? If none of them knows one of these basic skills, are you willing to step up and fill that gap? Have you gotten together over coffee to decide whose yard will be used for growing vegetables and whose will be used for chickens, in the event of TEOTWAWKI? How about books–do you have a library among you that could be used to reboot a village-sized civilization? Hey, do you know anybody who can make paper?

Are you seriously planning for what you and the people around you will do in the event of complete loss of infrastructure and emergency services, or are you just stroking the barrel of your ridiculously overpowered pseudo-military firearm (or ridiculously cumbersome pseudo-Ye Olde Tyme firearm) and fantasizing about shooting people and getting away with it?

SCAdians are more prepared for TEOTWAWKI than the average prepper, and we fully and freely admit that we’re playacting!

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I guess the SHTF-ers figure they can just stick a gun in some “pantywaist Liberal”‘s face and take their stuff.

Which is totally not the same as some ~criminal~* sticking their gun in someone’s face and taking their stuff.

— * “Suspicious-looking non-white person”.

caryjamesbond

Dentists. Seriously- lock down a dentist TOOT SWEET. And an obstetrician . Life will be cheap, and honestly, there won’t be shit to do about cancer, or for that matter, most internal bleeding, or disease. But a good dentist can make life a million times better- and babies are the most important thing in a SHTF scenario. You can do quite well without generators- but without generators and a toothache and suicide will be your main concern, not eating.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I can’t imagine having to trust a tooth removal to a non-expert with only a pair of automotive pliers. (O_O)

Jenny Islander

A midwife and a paramedic, or somebody with both skill sets, would be a better bet long term than an OB, I think. Modern OBs depend on infrastructure that wouldn’t be there.

Somebody with a lot of experience doing surgeries and setting bad fractures with minimal gear would be extremely useful. Say, a doctor who had done a lot of work in rural India.

Of course, there’s a population threshold below which you simply can’t afford to feed a doctor’s apprentice who is spending all their time training to be a full doctor. Below that level, you can still maintain hygiene if everyone is vigilant and conscientious, and hygiene alone makes a huge difference in mortality rates. But really, you need a group of several thousand people ready to pull together to get through whatever has thrown them entirely on local resources, if they expect to still be on their own in a generation or so. At that level you can probably produce most tools and drugs that were available, say, around WWI, giving nearly everyone a fighting chance at reaching old age. But you would still lose people to conditions that can be diagnosed at a treatable stage only with modern scanning equipment or what have you.

Dentists YES YES YES. Dentists and ether.

The_L1985

Oh, indeed. Dentistry, combined with knowing where to find penicillin and simple herbal remedies, will make a post-apocalyptic world somewhat tolerable, if much harder than our current world.

This will probably sound like a ex post facto justification, but I did that on purpose for a sort of sarcastic emphasis thing-y.

I’m….actually not entirely sure why I purposely misspelled it.

I have shamed my clan. Seppaku is the only way left to me now.

AnonaMiss

I thought you were going for TOOTH SWEET.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Seppuku. ;)

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Also we have better fashion sense. Yes, even those of us who dress like pirates, depending on the size of the hat.

Emcee, cubed

You do realize that this hill you seem to be pitching your flag on is completely stupid, right? It is a semantics game, very much like the one the anti-tax idiot is playing. It has no meaning. By your logic, running out in front of the “forces” yelling stop stop this is a constitutional republic is somehow better. Seriously, get a grip.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

*marks paper*

And bingo, you’ve hopscotched all over the standard fringe right-wing talking points. Hint: “SHTF” is a well-known acronym over on survivalist web forums, where they go on and on about how awesome they all are at being individualistic unafraid folks who would totally be numero uno after a worldwide disaster.

Jebhel

Not good with facts, eh? Takes the wind out of your rants..

dpolicar

Not going to try to argue with you stupid assed jerks any more.

Wow, you stuck to that flounce for three whole days. Congratulations on your willpower.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

And don’t fuck with me, this little boy would kick your ass damn quick and hard. And I am 65 this year. Don’t think so you can give that a try as well.

I’ll believe that threats of violence reveal insecurity, but cursing? Some parts of society, cursing’s punctuation.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Agreed. I curse as a matter of course. As far as the violence? I’d like to see some of these guys come out from behind their guns and see how scary they are.

The_L1985

We live in a constitutional democratic republic. To wit:

– Each adult citizen gets one anonymous vote. This is the definition of democracy.

– Voting citizens elect representatives to serve their interests in the government. This is the definition of a republic.

– Our government is defined, and its powers and the limits on said powers delineated, in a national constitution. So yes, our nation is constitutional.

A big-D Democrat (a member of the political party) and a small-d democrat (a person who endorses democracy) are NOT the same thing, and you need to quit conflating them.

Rowdy

I don’t think it is a dissenting political view that has him so upset. But then again it is all according to how you define is, (as chief liberal clinton says). If you define a “dissenting political view” as a political coupe de tat by a foreign government, then I guess yes that is what is upsetting him.

AnonaMiss

a political coupe de tat by a foreign government

Please, do go on.

/popcorn

dpolicar

Hey, cool! You’ve learned that joining conversations that you weren’t specifically invited to is OK here. Glad we can agree on that much.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Nobody strictly “needs” an invitation to post on this here blog.

dpolicar

Yup, that’s true. Rowdy was talking earlier as though we did (or, well, as though Ellie did, anyway), so I’m glad they’ve learned better.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

“libtard”

“other than the vile language”

You get right on that, why don’t you?

TheBCow

A solid, but unspectacular trolling. I’m going with a 6 out of 10.

To play along. I find it hilarious that conservatives who are so in love with majority-rules democracy, from elected judiciaries and sheriffs to ballot initiatives are the same folks who hold themselves up as the inheritors of the founders. The same founders who set up system wherein Federal judges could (in theory, though never in practice) be appointed without the consultation of a single person who actually received a vote cast by a citizen. The founders were rightly suspicious of democracy, because without things like judicial or administrative checks, it can pretty quickly turn into more outwardly polite torch and pitchfork mob rule.

Of course, if you view that as an error that was corrected by the 17th amendment (as many do), you’d have to acknowledge that it was pushed through by the same people who gave you the hated income tax and some of the first major government regulations of private business.

As for the topic of free speech, I have always been a fan of how my beloved home state of Oregon has it enshrined it our constitution. “No law shall be passed restraining the free expression of opinion, or restricting the right to speak, write, or print freely on any subject whatever; but every person shall be responsible for the abuse of this right.”

teatime

@ B Cow; no one pushed through federal income tax.There is no law passed for federal income, some states did pass state income tax. No government office or court or the IRS can show you a bill passed for fed. income tax.!

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Oh for fuck’s sake, another ~brave “tax protestor”~

Run the fuck off to the Democratic Republic of the Congo or somewhere you won’t have to pay any taxes.

Emcee, cubed

Yes, actually they can. That would be the 16th Amendment to the US Constitution. Now, true, that isn’t technically a law, but it does, in fact, give the federal government the power to collect a federal income tax.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Wait till they haul out the “BUT THAT AMENDMENT WAS TOTES NOT REALLY ~APPROVED~”

antiscreed

The biggest progressive lie that exists other than, we love black people and champion ask women. You are the most racist and misogynistic of all of us liberal scum

Emcee, cubed

Dude, seriously? The 16th Amendment to the Constitution is pretty clear.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

You may not like it, but it’s there. Deal with it. For a bunch of people that fetishize the Constitution, you don’t seem to like what it actually says. (And what this has to do with racism or misogyny is lost on me…)

antiscreed

Because you neglect, like most liberal pigs the enumerated powers of the Fed that are strict and unyielding. But then you don’t have a problem with broadening the Fed scope for anything. Ever. You fuckin moron.

Emcee, cubed

Um. No. The powers of the Federal Reserve are part of the Federal Reserve Act, which is not part of the Constitution. The Constitution trumps everything. So since the Constitution grants the power of the federal government to collect federal income tax, no lesser act can infringe upon that. Again, for people who like to fetishize the Constitution, you don’t actually know how it works, either.

antiscreed

Lololol. You have no clue dumbass. Oh and btw for you people reading this idiots supposed knowledge? He’s a liar.

Emcee, cubed

Please show me the section of the Constitution that enumerates the powers of the Federal Reserve. I’ll wait.

antiscreed

You haven’t learned at this age…Gawd you’re boring. Your inability to understand this is breathtaking.

Emcee, cubed

Translation: Of course I can’t, because it doesn’t exist, but that doesn’t fit my completely stupid ideology.

It really is pretty simple. Here in the US, the US Constitution trumps everything. Rights given in the Constitution cannot be abridged by any other lesser legislation. (It can, in fact, be changed, but only by a later part of the Constitution, hence the repeal of prohibition had to be another Amendment.) The 16th Amendment very specifically grants the federal government the right to collect an income tax. Unless you can show a later Amendment that abridges that right, you are full of shit. Period. Full stop. The Constitution is the final word. Live with it.

Lori

He has facts. You have insults. He is not the dumbass.

antiscreed

Ooooo Lori. Ooooo

Lori

Wow, you sure showed me.

reynard61

“Because you neglect (…) the enumerated powers of the Fed that are strict and unyielding.”

I believe that you may be confused about what the term “enumerated” means within the context of what the Amendment says. In this case, it means “numbered” — as in “counted”. (The Amendment is basically saying that the government can tax income without, among other things, having to take a census in order to collect those taxes.) Your use of the term means “specified”, as in “the specified powers of the Fed that are etc.” which is an entirely different area of discussion.

Rowdy

let’s see how much you do know about that. What limitation is placed on how much the IRS can tax you?

reynard61

Congress taxes. The IRS is their collection agency. The IRS is, theoretically, bound by the tax laws that Congress makes. (This does not mean, however, that; like all enforcement organizations; the IRS won’t overstep it’s bounds once in a while. Thus the need for oversight.)

antiscreed

Wrong idiot. Totally wrong.

Lori

You make such a convincing argument. How can anyone deny your great wisdom? /sarcasm

reynard61

Okay, where am I wrong? (And tread carefully when you answer. My knowledge of the Constitution is probably only fair-to-middlin’ [I have a good grasp of the basics, though I may not have the grasp of certain subtleties that, say, a second-year Constitutional Law student might have] compared to some of the other commenters here, and they *WILL* call you out if you make a mistake — *and* provide citations to back themselves up. So, yes: to quote our President: “Proceed.”)

B Wolfe

I love how they say how wrong everyone is and that’s it. You’re just wrong. I don’t need to explain why you are wrong because the word wrong negates everything. LOL

reynard61

And yet; were I to call *him* “wrong”, he would probably drag out his fainting couch and clutching pearls and don his sackcloth and ashes and moan and wail and gnash his teeth about how I’m “persecuting” him because I’m disagreeing with him.

BaseDeltaZero

16th amendment = racist and misogynistic?

Whaaat?

Jebhel

Another one without facts, but vile language handy.

Rowdy

You don’t consider the Constitution a LAW?

Emcee, cubed

This depends on one’s definition of “law”. In a broad definition of “rules one must follow”, then yes, it is law. But a Constitutional Amendment is not regular legislation, and is not part of the legal code. (This is how people like this make statements like “can’t show you a bill passed for fed. income tax”) The Constitution and its Amendments are higher than the United States Code, which are what we usually consider the law. “Illegal” and “unconstitutional” are two separate things. Yes, it’s kind of a semantics thing, but that’s how the anti-income-tax argument works.

Rowdy

You are absolutely correct. Did you see my other post about my friend. He lost everything, including his life. Not good to try to cross the gestapo oops I mean IRS.

got to argue with you a little over the legislation point. I agree that it is not legal code, but it is regular legislation, It is the foundation and the operating premise for all future legislation in the U.S. So it is the founding legislation. by definition “legislation is a law or set of laws suggested by the government and validated by congress

Emcee, cubed

I saw it. And I have no sympathy. Strangely, the law and the Constitution work the way they are actually written, not the way someone wants them to be written. The 16th Amendment, as I said, is very clear. He had no legal standing for his position AT ALL. So his problems were entirely of his own making. Had he paid his taxes like the majority of people, following the law and the Constitution, he would have been fine. The IRS did their job and went after a tax evader. Blaming them is like blaming the police for arresting someone who confessed to a crime.

Rowdy

Well you don’t understand the circumstances. I don’t fully understand it, but it had to do with a new law or maybe it was just an IRS regulation, retroactive. Crazy crap. They came in saying he owed all this money due to the value of the cars that had been accumulated over 50 years. He paid his income tax every year for what he had made selling parts (operating his business) There was no way possible to pay the amount they wanted from him, so he fought them for everything he had. They were not doing their job they were robbing people. Their good at it. I wouldn’t care so much and never did until I found out just how badly the waste the money the get from us. It then becomes too obvious that no matter how much they take it will never be enough.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Paying taxes on the value of your assets is a part of doing business, always has been.

Emcee, cubed

Yeah, the story smells to high heaven. And not just in the “it didn’t happen to me, so I’m getting it third hand” kind of way. The biggest red flag is the part where the IRS supposedly had a car crusher come in and destroy the assets they were supposed to seize. This would never happen, and if it did, then he would actually have a case against the IRS. The seizure of assets is done to obtain the money to settle the taxpayer’s bill. Therefore, all assets seized are sold at auction, and the proceeds applied to the amount owed. People have this weird idea that something like a car is the same as the cash, so they can do what they want with the assets seized (such as crushing them for no apparent reason). This is untrue. We can’t pay military salaries or fix roads or anything else with classic cars. So they need to be sold. Destroying them is counter-productive (and, you know, illegal). There are a bunch of other things that scream bullshit, but that’s the biggest one.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Translation: I am talking out my ass, and since you’ve called me on the fact that I’ve told several transparent lies, I’m going to hand-wave and just repeat my assertions more angrily.

caryjamesbond

I don’t fully understand it, but it had to do with a new law or maybe it was just an IRS regulation, retroactive.

In general, if you “don’t fully understand” something to the point of not knowing what law or maybe regulation or maybe civil code or SOMETHING legal-y sounding was in play- then maybe you shouldn’t talk about it.

Also, this “Friend” of yours got railroaded, imprisoned, and died, and you can’t even be asked to know what horrible, terrible, evil no-good very bad law/regulation/presidential decree/AOO (act of Obama) did it to him?

You’re not just stupid, you’re a shitty friend too.

Lori

Not good to try to cross the gestapo oops I mean IRS.commit truly idiotic tax evasion and then expend all one’s resources on a completely futile attempt to defend that stone stupid attempt at tax evasion.

Fixed that for ya.

Emcee, cubed

Except “suggested by the government and validated by Congress” isn’t enough for a Constitutional Amendment. Regular legislation becomes enacted at that point. Amendments do not. Amendments have no power until ratified by 3/4 of the states. It is therefore not regular legislation (hence the modifier). It is closer to “super-legislation” if you will.

TheBCow

Does the 16th Amendment not exist in your world?

Or are you one of the people who think that Ohio wasn’t a state until the Eisenhower administration? That has always been my favorite tax protester argument.

Lori

Welcome to Wingnut world.

Rowdy

A former friend of mine tried that one. He spent years fighting the Feds over income taxes. He owned a really cool auto salvage yard. His dad had started it and about 90% of the hundreds of vehicles were 1930’s and 1940’s vehicles. They were all up on blocks with a carport roof over them. I can’t even imagine the work his dad him and his brothers put into it. He went to court for years. Then one day he was gone. He lost, went to prison where he died about 14 years later. The feds contracted a Co that came in with a crusher and emptied the lot and sold the property. I don’t think I would try them in the current situation.

Lori

It’s a shame your friend threw away his family’s business and his own life on tax evasion. And not just tax evasion, stone stupid tax evasion.

Rowdy

Yeah oregon the socialist cesspool of America.

It would seem you are the one with a lot of confusion around forms of government. We are not and never have been a Democracy. The founders were explicit about that.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Seriously? What is it with folks like you and their utter ignorance of the world beyond the US’s borders?

In Canada, judges are routinely appointed. Guess what? We have a justice system that works on the same basis as yours (English common law, adversarial system) and it doesn’t have major issues.

I swear to god people like you are an active hazard to others.

Rowdy

F. U. tired of trying to bring a little sense into all your worlds.

Not what I have heard. I have several friends in Canada. They hide in their holes like we will be doing here soon.

Yeah I am a hazard to all communists.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Considering I live in Canada, I think I’m a little more qualified to speak on the subject than your imaginary Canadian friends.

And we are not by any stretch of the imagination some kind of gulag archipelago.

BaseDeltaZero

Yes. That sounds like a great plan. Go hide in your hole. Please.

Rowdy

You see that isn’t the way it works. I am not the hider, I am the hunter.

Lori

LOL

Jenny Islander

Yes, and you’re the guard dog and we’re the sheep and you’re the hoo-uh veteran and we’re the soft civilians and you know The Secret Hidden Truth Of Everything and we’re stuck, you know, quoting the actual founding documents of our country.

Boring. Next turkey please!

BaseDeltaZero

Uh huh. Uh huh, yes, I see. Tell me more… Wait, no, don’t.

caryjamesbond

You know, I’ve encountered some actual hard men in my time. Men who were actual army rangers, special forces, ex-marines with nasty scars and missing parts, and so on.

They were, to a man, the politest, most civil people I’ve ever met. They most certainly wouldn’t go bragging about their qualifications/threatening random people on the internet. A) they didn’t need to brag. And B) they had better shit to do/

I have also encountered quite a few giant wusses with small testes. They tended to shoot their mouths off alllll the time about how badass they were.

You know how I know you aren’t serious about any of this shit you talk about doing? You’re bragging about it online. The people who actually know what the fuck they’re talking about know about a little thing called “operational security”.

Like I said- stupid, stupid man.

Jenny Islander

Yeah, the ilk of Rowdy and antiscreed go shoot up trees in the woods, shouting “Ooorah” and “Yeehaw!” and leaving their beer cans and brass for other people to pick up. Actual Marines, OTOH, made the first night of our honeymoon in Kailua-Kona the quietest night we spend in Hawaii. We were on the third floor of the hotel and the entire second floor was full of Marines on their way to someplace. Did they run around snockered, yelling stupid things and flourishing assorted penis substitutes? No, they went to bed and slept all night, because they were the real thing headed out to do the real thing. And I did not see so much as a gum wrapper left behind after they filed onto their buses the next day.

B Wolfe

Rowdy, a hunter is usually quiet. . .

Fanraeth

You think Canada is communist? You really don’t understand the meanings of words, do you?

Mary

You forget the conservative mentality. Anyone they disagree with is a “communist.” Or socialist. Or Marxist. Or Muslim. Or…whatever. It really doesn’t matter to them what the actual definition of these words are and that in fact they make themselves known as fools when they spout this stuff.

William Dhalgren

“Yeah I am a hazard to all communists”

Xbox 360, PS3, or just on your PC?

Rowdy

I just barely recognize the names, since I have grandkids I buy these things for. No My games are much more realistic. In fact it is not unusual for someone to get injured during a training exercise. You see that is why you train. to get in better shape and to be able to preform certain tasks without getting injured. You should really come play some time. I would sure enough get a real kick out of it. Be rolling on the ground laughing my ass off. We have a class about once every two weeks. Particularly during the winter. In the summer it is more like once a month, too busy to play as much as is needed.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Xbox 360, PS3, or just on your PC?

I just barely recognize the names, since I have grandkids I buy these things for.

Hey hey hey didn’t you totally just tell us you were an awesome technogeek building the Internet back in 1972 “when it was just a file transfer system” and then tell us you totally worked with industrial automated control systems and casino surveillance?

And yet you “barely recognize” popular gaming console systems and the universal shorthand for “Personal Computer”.

Dude. Stop trying to make shit up about yourself. You’re embarrassing yourself in the extreme.

eamonknight

I object to the accusation that “people like [me] are the problem with this country”. Specifically, I object to the assumption that I live in “this country”, meaning presumably the USA. In fact, I live in Canada, where (as noted elsewhere in-thread) judges are appointed and police officials are hired (hopefully) for their demonstrated professional qualifications. And remarkably, it doesn’t seem much like a dictatorial oligarchy up here (certainly no more than what I observe of the USA, the oligarchy being composed of the CEOs of major corporations).

Rowdy

I apologize. Sometimes I forget that even when we are discussing issues that we face here in America there are people in other countries on these forums that take an interest in Americas issues (more like laughing at us). One of my most humbling experiences on the internet was when a man from Libya, back when the Arab spring just got going. Was involved in a conversation about politics and no one had any idea who he was. a lull in the conversation and he tells me that he is a freedom fighter in Libya and asks me when America is going to grow a pair and do something about our government. If there was sound in a forum you could have heard a pin drop.

I don’t think you understand the true patriotic conservative in America today. I agree with about everything you have said. What you don’t seem to understand is that we not only oppose the liberal, socialistic, communistic agenda, we probably even more so oppose the Crony capitalists. Capitalism in our republic worked just fine right up to the point that liberal socialists pushed the private banking of the federal reserve on us. From that point on the bankers in collusion with the corporate elite actually formed their own shadow government and we the people have been at war with them at the ballot boxes ever since. Now they have taken complete control of the ballot boxes and we no longer have any control over them. But that will have to change soon or more and more nut jobs like the chief, that also happen to be part of the true patriots of this country. Notice I didn’t necessarily apply the conservative label. He may be but his actions are more like an out of joint liberal. Any way more and more of them will show up as the tension of stress levels over being abused by our government rise. You see that is why they have been as successful as they have. The real backbone of this country is the morally strong conservative patriot, that will serve his country in time of need regardless of any other obligations. In battle they fight with a fury founded in the love of GOD, freedom and family. Just ask any foreign veteran that has fought beside us or that has faced us in battle. We are a one of a kind. But we are a quite reserved group. Yes we cling to our bibles and our guns. Those are both things that were the very cornerstones of this country. We get up every morning and go to work and we do our jobs well with the same love of GOD Country and Family, we help others in need, we don’t bother others, just as we don’t want to be bothered. We trust everyone and FELT that everyone wanted to come to America because of our freedom. Until recently we couldn’t fathom that people would come here and live here with the only thought in mind to destroy this country. They are of the opinion right now that they have us under control and the battle is over. They have no idea. They are pushing their control agenda harder and harder all the time and soon one push will be too far and they will be totally amazed at the massive volume and the ferocity with which we will take the country back away from them. Then America will make some adjustments to insure that this will be much harder to accomplish next time and will flourish again even brighter than ever.

THE END

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Capitalism in our republic worked just fine right up to the point that liberal socialists pushed the private banking of the federal reserve on us.

Yeah

Liberal socialists

Like gee

The Mellons, the Morgans, the Rockefellers

You mean like very wealthy capitalists like them?

You have a very strange definition of liberal socialist then!

Rowdy

Try broadening your spectrum a little. You don’t seem to understand what you read. Even after you quote it. There is a line and a difference between socialists and crony capitalists. You left out many, they are by far not all here in America, bilderbergers come to mind. The unbelievable corruption in the banking started 3,000 years ago, but did not make it into America until 1913. Some are both but both are scum that think only they have the right to decide for all. That is why they are now bound together with the bankers that are probably the controlling factor in their efforts to undo America. We are the only thing left standing in their way. Won’t fly here.

Lori

This is rich coming from a guy who doesn’t understand the First Amendment and probably forgets that the Second Amendment has a clause before the comma. (Or 2 commas depending on which text one is quoting.)

Rowdy

Oh I understand it just fine. I also understand all the maneuvers to distort and subvert it.

The second amendment you say. That would be the part that defines the militia. Well regulated. No that does not mean government control. That means organized with echelons of rank where ranking officers are expected to display skilled military qualities. Read correspondence between Hamilton, Jefferson, Mason, and Washington on the subject when they were crafting the Constitution, and then explain it to me.

Lori

It doesn’t matter how many times you repeat yourself, you still don’t understand how the First Amendment works. And while there is some debate over what was meant by “well-regulated militia” it definitely didn’t mean a bunch of anti-government guns nuts running around the woods making themselves feel important. No, not even if you give yourselves bullshit ranks.

BaseDeltaZero

How does one confirm that the militia is properly organized to count as ‘well regulated’ without government oversight? What’s to prevent a whole bunch of yokels with a few rifles and way too much beer from calling themselves a ‘militia’ and enforcing the sunset clause on the nearest town, even apart from actual quality? Do you just have a battle royale? Because… I suppose that could work, but it really sounds like a bad idea.

One could argue whether the ‘well regulated militia’ is a qualification or merely a justification (though, given none of the *other* amendments spend a sentence explaining themselves), but ‘infringement’ and ‘any oversight whatsover’ are not the same thing.

AnonaMiss

liberal socialists pushed the private banking of the federal reserve on us

One would think that a Constitutional scholar such as yourself would have a better grasp of paragraph breaks.

we don’t bother others,

And yet here you are, spewing your no-paragraph, militia bullsht.

Rowdy

Ooh excuse me.

VMink

THE END

Promises, promises….

Vermic

Then America will make some adjustments to insure that this will be much harder to accomplish next time

Break it down for me if you would, please, this “some adjustments” part. Are we talking full-on concentration camps here, or just humane mass deportation to Madagascar? Thx in advance.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

But YOU would end true freedom of choice by the people, and replace it with a dictatorial oligarchy.

Completely unlike the one we’d get with Republicans repealing the Voting Rights Act!

(And in other news, the Voting Rights Act was recently gutted by the Supreme Court and there are already a flurry of voting restrictions laws being debated specifically to make it harder for Those People to muck up the system by voting.)

Rowdy

Doesn’t make a spit of difference any way. Voting is a thing of the past. the last 15 years have been proof that the vote means nothing. Who ever the elites want in office will be in office, until we take that power away from them.

You folks here are terrible about stereo typing people. Because I express a conservative outlook you presume that I am a republican. In that respect I guess I am a lot like IT. I am neither. I have been a Democrat probably more than I have been a Republican. I have been an independent as well. I am not party affiliated to good old boys. I carefully research where I cast my vote. And I vote for whom I feel will do the most for our country. I tend to give them a pretty hard time. I was a was a delegate to the conventions last general election because I strongly supported Ron Paul as he was by far the most Constitutional candidate in the race and right now that is the most crucial qualification. And what happened, someone that stated before the 2008 election that the U.S. Constitution was flawed and needed to be fixed. A few weeks later he put his hand on the bible and swore an oath to GOD to uphold the Constitution against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC. And has since taken every action he possibly can to undermine and destroy the Constitution.

Lori

So it your guy doesn’t get elected the vote means nothing? And of course you supported the racist gold bug nutter.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Ah, so you’re a religious libertarian! That’s adorable. Please, tell me more about how our obligation to help the poor meshes with our lack of obligation to give a damn about anyone, especially if it’s the government telling us to do it.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I will grant you that the voting system in the USA, along with the two-party system, creates a powerful inertia against changing things in ways that would benefit ordinary people.

That said, for all that people claim that there are only Republicrats and that the entire conflict between Democrats and Repiublicans is a manufactured show to distract the populace, I must needs point out that it was the Democratic Congress of 2007 that raised the minimum wage* after years of a supposedly pro-little person Republican dominance of the White House and Congress.

It seems to me Republicans don’t actually care about ordinary people unless it’s to soothe their imaginary fears about omgmuslims taking over the USA.

Um. You do realize that a huge portion of the country has agreed that the Constitution is flawed, right/? In fact, they have agreed 27 times. Even the founders realized it was flawed. That’s why they put in a way to attempt to correct those flaws. You people have this rather odd problem with factual statements.

Emcee, cubed

Okay, I guess it isn’t really a factual statement. “Flawed” is a matter of opinion. I’m sure there is someone out there who feels that the document is completely perfect in every way. It doesn’t, however, seem to be any of the people who try to berate people who say that the Constitution is flawed. Because they always seem to have problems with the 1st and 14th and 16th Amendments, so obviously they believe the Constitution is flawed as well.

Rowdy

NO not a huge portion, in fact it is a very small small minority, and they are just saying that so they can proceed to make it say what they want. You know so very little about our constitution that it sickens me to even communicate with you or anyone like you with a sick mind. Go ahead and choose your side with the communists, it’s up to you. But make your choice carefully, don’t expect to ask for mercy later.

dpolicar

it sickens me to even communicate with you or anyone like you

You do understand that you can stop doing so at any time, right?

EllieMurasaki

THE POWER OF GREYSKULL COMPELS HIM

or something

Emcee, cubed

So the 27 times that 2/3 of the House of Representatives, 2/3 of the Senate and 3/4 of the States agreed that the Constitution was flawed and decided to change it, they were actually go against the majority of the people in the country to side with a “very very small minority?” That seems pretty unlikely. You’ll have to provide a citation for that.

EllieMurasaki

41%’s a majority, don’t forget.

Lori

As long as they’re Republicans, that is.

Rowdy

I am afraid my friend that I don’t have to provide anything to you. You are so stupid and you’re logic so distorted you are beyond help. Making modifications to it to let it live and adapt to the changing times, and to basically FINISH what they had started, Is sure not the same as saying it is flawed. In case you don’t understand it the first ten amendments were designed in and called the bill of rights. They were not put there to fix anything only to insure that the people were the power of the Constitution. Biggest flaw that was made is in setting it up so that future generations could prove to be just as strong brilliant and morally centered as the founders. Yep that was a mistake. Just as soon as the powers that had been trying to destroy America from the beginning saw that by slow changes to the Constitution they could undermine it and destroy it they went at it. That is why people with intelligence and strong moral compass have to remove much of what the socialists have done, not only to our Constitution but to our society. When that is done we won’t be bothered by scum like you F-in up the works. anymore.

Emcee, cubed

Well, let’s see. Where to start on this incredibly ridiculous rant. I guess I’ll start with the one thing you are right about. Yes, the first 10 amendments were written in the original. So it was only 17 times the country felt the document was flawed and needed changing. Somehow, that doesn’t really detract from my point.

Yes, saying that something about the Constitution needs changing, is in fact saying it is flawed. You don’t need to change a perfect document.

And then let’s go with the fact that you just admitted the Constitution is flawed. Biggest flaw that was made is in setting it up so that future generations could prove to be just as strong brilliant and morally centered as the founders. Your words. So if you agree that it was flawed, why do you have a problem with any one else saying so?

That same quote proves that you are the kind of person the founders worried about. “What would posterity think we were? Demi-gods? We’re men, no more, no less. trying to get a nation started against greater odds than a more generous god would allow.” The founders were well aware that they were not perfect, that they were men, not gods. They were incapable of producing a perfect document. Were they strong and brilliant? Yes. Were they “morally centered” (whatever that merans)? Meh. Were they any more of those things than future generations? I think you’d have a real hard time making that argument. Ben Franklin was an adulterer who fathered bastard children all over the colonies (and probably France). Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner, an adulterer and a rapist. Hardly pillars of morality.

And once again, we come back to the fact that you don’t actually like the Constitution. The founders very specifically and very intentionally created a way to amend the Constitution. (In fact, they created two ways. One has just never been used.) The country has used it 17 times to amend the Constitution. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t in any way change the fact that those amendments are now part of the Constitution. You can’t just edit out the parts you personally don’t like, and still claim you want to follow the Constitution. It doesn’t work that way. If you don’t like some of the amendments, work to get enough legislatures and people to agree with you to have those amendments repealed. You know, the CONSTITUTIONAL way to change the Constitution. (Of course, that would be admitting the the Constitution is flawed, and you don’t seem to like that idea.)

Emcee, cubed

Oh, and this part? I am afraid my friend that I don’t have to provide anything to you.? Yeah, almost everyone here will interpret this to mean “I made the ridiculous assertion up out of whole cloth, and now that I’ve been called on it, I have to resort to a bunch of name-calling and fake bravado in order to seem like I know what I’m talking about, even though everyone else knows that I don’t.” Yeah, good luck with that.

Lori

That is why people with intelligence and strong moral compass have to remove much of what the socialists have done, not only to our Constitution but to our society. When that is done we won’t be bothered by scum like you F-in up the works.

So what you’re saying is that in order for the nation to thrive you need to purge the undesirables? You know who else thought that? Hint: nobody good.

You have the same thought process as the tyrants and fascists you claim to hate. Clearly you don’t actually hate tyranny or fascism, you only hate not being in charge.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

You know, when Jonathan Swift wrote Gulliver’s Travels, one of his characters had the same kind of unduly pessimistic outlook on the current generation of his world’s leaders.

I was chiefly disgusted with modern history. For having strictly examined all the persons of greatest name in the courts of princes, for a hundred years past, I found how the world had been misled by prostitute writers, to ascribe the greatest exploits in war, to cowards; the wisest counsel, to fools; sincerity, to flatterers; Roman virtue, to betrayers of their country; piety, to atheists; chastity, to sodomites; truth, to informers: how many innocent and excellent persons had been condemned to death or banishment by the practising of great ministers upon the corruption of judges, and the malice of factions: how many villains had been exalted to the highest places of trust, power, dignity, and profit: how great a share in the motions and events of courts, councils, and senates might be challenged by bawds, whores, pimps, parasites, and buffoons. How low an opinion I had of human wisdom and integrity, when I was truly informed of the springs and motives of great enterprises and revolutions in the world, and of the contemptible accidents to which they owed their success.

I was surprised to find corruption grown so high and so quick in that empire, by the force of luxury so lately introduced; which made me less wonder at many parallel cases in other countries, where vices of all kinds have reigned so much longer, and where the whole praise, as well as pillage, has been engrossed by the chief commander, who perhaps had the least title to either.

In short, you have no new ideas under the sun. You’re just rehashing the moaning and groaning done by people who’ve fallen into the trap of unduly romanticizing the past.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Go ahead and choose your side with the communists, it’s up to you.

Oh, for God’s sake. Listen to yourself. That shit is *so* 25 years ago.

And this weird thing you have about “sick minds”? You know, the Soviets used to claim that if you advocated for things the people in charge didn’t like that meant you were mentally ill.

You are not as far removed from the people you claim to dislike, as you like to think.

Lori

See his other comment—he thinks the country can only be good when all the bad people have been gotten rid of. Sound familiar?

Protip: the 27 times Emcee, cubed was referencing? It’s the 27 Amendments, jackass. You know, the Constitutional Amendments.

Lori

No! Not the Axe body spray! That must violate the Geneva Conventions or something.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

That shit is probably flammable, too.

caryjamesbond

You know whats funny?

It wouldn’t matter if you were completely right. Because the poeple that agree with us outnumber the people that agree with you, and our numbers grow and grow every day.

Your ways are dying, just like you are. You’re old now, grandfather. The world is ours now. And we don’t like your shitty regime, your shitty society, your shitty beliefs, or your shitty healthcare.

You don’t have the numbers to win at the ballot box, you don’t have the numbers to launch a civil war. We’ve already won. You’ve alreasy lost. So we’re gonna legalize gay marriage and pot, and immigrants, and outlaw assault weapons. We’re gonna give everyone, even you, free healthcare. We’re gonna make the world better, one fight at a time, and you’ll probably live long enough to see the shitty edifices you worked so hard to prop up crumbling around you.

You’ve failed. We’ve won. And we will just keep moving forward, no matter how much idiocy you spout.

Run along, Yesterday’s News. The only thing the future has for you is a nursing home.

Sorry I was not aware of what you are speaking. I have a hard enough time keeping up with all the unconstitutional actions here in my home state of Colorado and the Fed. I don’t have time to keep tabs on what is going on in every state. I have a friend there that I haven’t talked to for a while. I guess it is time to send her an email. From what your telling me I would bet she has been busy. That is exactly the kind of thing she would come unglued on.

teatime

Joe Arpaio, is a true Sherrif, a real man, not afraid to go after Obama. he believes in the law;

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Oh shut the fuck up

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

If he believed in the law, he wouldn’t be on the bad side of the Department of Justice for violating it so many times.

Joe Arpaio, is a true Good Ole Boy, a real expert at reciting the shibboleths of modern playacting action hero wannabeism, not afraid to posture and breathe sedition against the duly elected President of the United States. he believes in having way more guns than he has hands to fire them with so nobody will dare to disagree with his version of what he wants the law to do for him;

eamonknight

I don’t get into the comments here that often. Is it usual to get such an influx of reality-challenged trolls, or is this thread special?

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Relatively special. When it rains, it pours. No predicting what’ll trigger the shower, either. The last big one was a thread on the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) and we had about five trolls on that one.

Lori

It’s Kessle’s wingnut, conspiracy theory pals swooping in to defend the brand. Their posts in other places are the usual Right Wing crap about Obama and the UN and blah, blah, blah,

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

It would be very mean of me, but I would like to see how much brick-crappage there’d be if I painted a bulletproof helicopter black and flew it over their heads.

Lori

It would be interesting to see if they’d orgasm or pee themselves more quickly.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

And with that mental picture, there goes the rest of my night. @_@ Blech.

Lori

Sorry. If I can’t sleep I’m keeping everyone else awake with me. :)

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

I don’t know whether to giggle madly or go at my sensory organs with a spoon. XD

Rowdy

You people really are sick here. Most everything seems to revolve around sex or vulgarity. I will pray for your lost souls but I am afraid that unless you wake up and realize the depravity of your actions, attitudes, and lifestyle, you are lost.

Fanraeth

I object to this assumption on your part. I did not *lose* my soul, I pawned it to buy kickass kung fu skills.

Lori

Better sex and vulgarity than guns, lies and hatred of anyone not just like you. Save your prayers for yourself. If there’s a god you’re going to need them far more than we will.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

It seems to me it is you who is obsessed with sex and vulgarity, as you’re the one apparently actively looking for reasons to act all superior to people who don’t think as you do.

reynard61

A brick shithouse’s worth? (See what I did there?)

Rowdy

Come after it dumb ass. You better make sure bullet proof means really bullet proof. Fly it over my property and you better be more than a quarter mile high (above my airspace) or I can legally and will shoot you down. I love target practice in the morning.

Lori

You’re going to stand out in your yard shooting at passing helicopters, like some gun nut version of Grandpa Simpson yelling at clouds? That is excellent.

VMink

Whoa, hold on, everyone, we’ve got a badass here!

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Bragging about how you in intend to commit murder is pretty dumb.

reynard61

And how will that work exactly? Are you going to stand outside all day shooting at random dark-colored helicopters in the hopes that you hit IN’s? I’m sure that the FAA — not to mention the FBI and DHS — is going to have something to say about that…

reynard61

The thread isn’t special, but the trolls sure are*…

* *winkwinknudgenudge*

Lori

So the racist old fart gets your panties wet. That says a lot about you, none of it good.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

…

This would be the “real man” who has spent years embezzeling money from the government on the false claim that he’s got “evidence” that somehow an arizona sheriff and NO ONE AT THE DOZENS OF HIGHER LEVELS can prove the president is ineligible?

The one who hired sex offenders to form a posse?

The one who’s abused his powers numerous times on record?

Ha. Ha. Ha.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Don’t forget an entrapment case where he and a group of hired agents more or less shoved a bomb in a guy’s hands and then arrested him for having a bomb, as part of a publicity stunt.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I hope that was thrown out of court.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

In 1999, undercover MCSO deputies arrested James Saville, then 18 years old, and charged him with plotting to kill Arpaio with a pipe bomb. A local television station had been tipped off to the arrest by the MCSO, and broadcast footage of the arrest that evening. The MCSO held a news conference shortly after the arrest, and Arpaio appeared in interviews on local television stations, saying “If they think they are going to scare me away with bombs and everything else, it’s not going to bother me.”

After spending four years in jail awaiting trial, Saville was acquitted by a Maricopa County Superior Court jury, which found that Arpaio’s detectives had helped buy the bomb parts themselves and had entrapped Saville as part of a publicity stunt.

Saville filed suit against Arpaio and Maricopa County for wrongful arrest. In 2008, the suit was settled, with Maricopa County paying Saville $1.6 million

Lori

Oh yeah, that’s a real man alright. Entrap a kid so that you can conduct a chest-thumping publicity stunt. Oh well, what’s 4 years of a human being’s life compared to giving morons like teatime a happy in their pants? /sarcasm

Rowdy

So your saying that because they worked with him in his plan to carry out terrorism, and some liberal judge tossed it out because of that and called it entrapment. The FBI, and in fact most LE agencies regularly use that exact procedure to catch terrorists and that is hunky dory. But now Arpaio is a criminal for catching a bad guy that clearly displayed intent to carry out a terrorist act. I know this man and he is absolutely an American Hero. Yeah sometimes he stretches the law a little and GOD knows he shouldn’t. But his enthusiasm to keep the bad guys under control gets the better of him. But he gets the job done.That area was way out of control before he became sheriff. He still doesn’t have it under control but it is a hell of a lot better than it was. And the difference between what it is now and what it would have been if he hadn’t done what he has. I don’t even want to talk about it. Most of you folks have absolutely no idea how bad it is sometimes down in that area. The whole city of Tuscon, Pima county just southeast of Arpaio’s Maricopa county is in martial law and has been for months, real quiet about it though. I probably wouldn’t have heard about it but my sister lives there. The media today only tells you what they want you to hear.

AnonaMiss

The whole city of Tuscon, Pima county just southeast of Arpaio’s Maricopa county is in martial law and has been for months, real quiet about it though.

Nope. I’ve got friends in Tucson, went to school there, keep up with a number of them on Facebook. The only thing approaching martial law in Pima County is the traffic stops that border control has set up on common coyote highways – which have been there since at least 2005, when I started college.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I’m not real enthused about what amounts to internal checkpointing in a country which used to pride itself on not doing what the Commies totally did.

AnonaMiss

You’ll get no argument from me. I nearly had a friend deported because he didn’t think he’d need his credentials along when going to visit the reservation. A student ID wasn’t enough and his driver’s license was foreign. The border patrol detained him. They only released him when another person in the group suggested they call the university to confirm. Apparently that’s not standard procedure. Don’t try to confirm their story – just lock them up!

They’re such racist fucks, too. I’ve only ever – and always – been stopped when there was a brown person in the car. When it was only white folks, they had us slow down, looked in the cab at us, and waved us through.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Arpaio was just stupid enough to get caught.

There have been documented cases of the authorities acting as agents provocateurs over the centuries, but Arpaio has only himself to blame, not some “Liberal judge”.

Baby_Raptor

I’m calling troll. It’s the name.

reynard61

And yet…*President* Obama is still *President* Obama (and in the White House) and not “inmate” Obama in one of Arpaio’s “tent prison”s. Why is that? Oh, right! Arpaio’s got jack-shit’s worth of evidence to make a case against him! I’m with Invisible Neutrino on this one. STFU.

Rowdy

It ain’t over until the fat lady sings. And she ain’t even fat yet.

Lori

If you people couldn’t even get her fattened up in 4 1/2 years what in the world makes you think you can get her to sing in the next 3 1/2?

Rowdy

She is coming along real well now. She is going to sing before the 3 1/2 years is up. And she will sing long and hard when she gets started.

Lori

What are you going to do when that doesn’t happen? Because it’s not going to happen. A black man is president of the United States. Unlike his predecessor, and in spite of some serious vote suppression efforts by the GOP, he was duly elected both times.

reynard61

It’s only a two-act Opera! I’d give Arpiao’s threats more credence if President Obama could run for a third term, but he’s almost a quarter of the way through the second act. When is Arpaio going to make *his* move?!

Bachmann is quite frankly, mentally unstable. She is an embarassment even to the Republicans .Arpaio appears to be mentally unstable as well.

antiscreed

That’s right you miserable fuck. I know it’s been a bad idea letting you people have any power at all. Democrat liberal fascist racists.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Oh, that was classy. Just to crown that off can you guzzle a can of beer and then let out a burp that shakes the house?

antiscreed

Classy? Hahahahahahstay unarmed pussy

Abel Undercity

How we know we’re not living under tyranny: Freaks like this fold themselves right into the system of the real thing.

stardreamer42

Also, this guy isn’t in jail. The phrase “shouting from the rooftops that he’s afraid to speak above a whisper” springs to mind.

Baby_Raptor

Well, we have one thing in common…I do love a good creative swear.

Also, this county has “Kill” in it’s name. That should have been a warning of the crazy potential.

Amaryllis

As I’m sure you know, O Infant Devourer, the “kill” is from a Dutch word for riverbed, and lots of places have it in their names. (Although it was eerily appropriated to keep hearing about “Fresh Kills landfill” after 9/11.) Anyway, “Schuylkill” is I believe usually translated as “Hidden River,” but according to Wikipedia, it may also mean “Hideout Creek.” And of course, this means that the Schuylkill River is the Hidden River River.

Geographical etymology being much more interesting than any words from the elected officials of Gilberton. It’s not the multiple f-bombs, I’ve gotten used to those. It’s all the other words coming out of their mouths that ought to make them ashamed enough to go hide their faces way up on Hideout Creek.

He’s on the school board? Really? God help us all.

LeRoc

I am Dutch, and I second the translation “Hideout Creek”, meaning something like “Creek where you can hide away” or “Creek where someone has hidden away”.

The_L1985

This still makes the Catskill Mountains of NY a bit funny. I’m pretty sure most cats do not get along well with rivers.

http://timothy.green.name/ Timothy (TRiG)

Here in Ireland, kill is a very common element in placenames, deriving either from coil (woodland), or (more commonly) cill (church). (The c in Irish is hard; the Irish cill sounds the same as the English kill; the Irish coil is more like quill.)

TRiG.

Baby_Raptor

I see what you did there. I bow to your word play, and will take my scolding with quiet dignity.

Amaryllis

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it to come off as scolding! It was just A) I enjoy your screen name, and B) I was trying to find some humor to soften a revolting bit of news, C) on a thread that I actually read early enough not to be confused by Disqus’s half-assed horrible comment system.

Baby_Raptor

Oh, I understand. It was meant as a sincere compliment!

VMink

On Staten Island, the part of the bay that lies between the island and New Jersey is called the Kill Van Kull. I don’t know, it just sounds rather cool.

GuestPoster

Honestly, I have to agree with the mayor. If he’s not doing it in his official capacity, it’s really no different than if the president, say, goes to sunday Mass. It’s just something they do on their own time. And the people of the town, fools though they may be, have the right to elect any monster they want to.

Of course, should he actually ACT on any of those words, it stops being a freedom of speech issue, and becomes an actual criminal violence issue. But by and large, we allow people to say any idiotic thing they want, no matter how vile. Do gotta feel bad for the schoolchildren, though.

Riley Dangerously

Ranting about homosexuals really no different than the President going to mass eh? You are a very confused individual.

Jared James

And you are a very incorrect individual. The First Amendment is there to protect speech we hate, which is provocative and shocking and even staggeringly stupid. It’s also there to protect the free exercise of religion, even if said religion demands on your own time, that all other religions be ignored, persecuted, or forbidden, as long as in your official capacity you remember to uphold said free exercise for everyone else.

So in those two respects, yes, idiotic racist rants from a public official are quite like the President practicing religion, as long as they are both on the official’s own time.

eamonknight

But hate speech from a public official? No, he shouldn’t be arrested for it, but citizens who rely on him for protection and fair treatment before the law have every reason to consider him unfit for that office. There are some things you are never off the clock for.

Jared James

I’m with you, there. There’s also no one in the country who doesn’t notice if the President goes to Mass, to synagogue, or shakin’-and-rollin’ Pentecostal tent meetings, but the two activities are quite similar, as far as the First Amendment is concerned.

The fact that his constituents, who voted him into office, probably demand unfair treatment of others and racist stupidity on the part of their elected officials doubtless figures into the mayor’s vote of confidence.

Lori

Presumably he wasn’t elected to be the town’s only police officer and he may have been either appointed to the school board or ran unopposed. IOW, it’s pretty clear that the town’s major is also a shit, but it’s not possible to know much more than that without having a lot more information.

Small town politics can be really weird and Gilberton has fewer than 800 residents. It may be that all but a handful of people there are just like Kessler. It could just as easily be that the majority of people are decent, but a small clique has a stranglehold on power.

Rowdy

You mean kinda like our national political mess.

Jeff Weskamp

I agree. When we give somebody the power to arrest people, we need to hold them to a high standard of conduct.

themunck

Am I the only one seriously disturbed by the fact that elected officials with the power to make arrests in the first place?

I have yet to see it be truly different elsewhere in the world. The main thing that seems to vary is how talked about it is, and by what demographics.

dpolicar

Oh, I’m not disagreeing about it being normal. I’m saying that being unable to be disturbed by normality is a shame. Many normal things are legitimately disturbing.

JustoneK

I am seeing a therapist bout that. But that’s the thing – why waste energy on that sort of response when you need it to cope with the legit awful things?

thingy.

dpolicar

Agreed that being disturbed by disturbing things is something of a luxury, and that if we lack the necessary resources. to do it, it’s perfectly legit to withdraw.

That said, it’s a shame we lack those resources.

Lori

Unless I missed something, I don’t see that he has arrest powers because he was elected. He has arrest powers because he’s a cop. That was probably a hired position, not an elected one. (I’ve never lived anywhere that elects its police.) He’s police “chief” by default because he’s the only cop the town has. The school board is probably elected, but no arrest powers go with that job.

themunck

I think I read a comment above and confused myself into thinking sheriff was an elected office. My mistake.

Cathy W

Many places in the US do elect the county sheriff (see: Joe Arpaio, in Arizona). I think the man in question is not the county sheriff, but a chief of police of one of the towns in Schuylkill County.

Lori

Lots of places do elect the county sheriff, but IME the person elected is usually someone who has been with the department as a deputy, or was in law enforcement somewhere else, not some random. In those cases there are arrest powers that go with the job, but the person already had them in his/her previous job.

Cathy W

I believe that’s how my cousin ended up police chief of his small town – he was the only full-time officer.

Lori

IIRC that’s how our fire chief became chief. We’re a big enough town not to rely on a volunteer fire department and we actually have quite a few fire fighters but I think all but one of them are part timers who have other jobs.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Sheriffs are elected(at least around here), and they CAN have arrest powers. I don’t know if all of them do. Here in Louisville they mainly serve warrants, but I know a lot of surrounding counties that have elected sheriffs with no other appointed(self or otherwise, as was the case in Wingo, KY when I lived nearby) police presence.

Now that isn’t the case with this guy, who was appointed, but we can and do elect people who are allowed arrest powers. They DO have to attend classes for it I understand though.

Lori

Do you elect people sheriff who have no previous law enforcement experience? If so, that’s really different than places where I’ve lived.

Like I said, IME sheriff is an elected position with arrest powers, but the job is filled by someone who already had arrest powers by virtue of being a sheriff’s deputy or something similar. I’ve never lived anywhere where Joe Blow the account or whatever got elected sheriff. I’m well aware that nearly anything is possible in small town America, but I’ve never experienced that.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

I know that tends to be the way it goes, but I’ve seen news stories of non-police elected sheriffs but that was WAY BACK WHEN, when I was a broadcast news monitor, so it DOES happen, obviously not very often.

Here the sheriffs office is more political, you don’t run on how you’ve made the place safer when all your department does is serve warrants and provide security at the jail and courthouse.

VMink

There are a few places that ‘elect’ the sherrif. Joe Arapio is actually an elected official, who campaigns for terms and everything.

Lori

Kessler isn’t a sheriff, he’s a cop. Joe Arapio spent like 3 decades in law enforcement, virtually all in jobs with arrest powers, prior to being elected sheriff of Miracopa County and letting his inner racist nutjob totally run free.

That was not hate speech, that was a man giving the facts that libtards hate. He was a little loud about it , but maybe you all understood him a little better . Conservatives, we are done playing nice . Now you all will be receive ing back a whole lot of what you give . Meaning , no more silent majority. We are’nt gonna sit back and continue to let the inmates run the asylum.

Emcee, cubed

[citation needed]

Lori

Brenda, I seriously doubt that you have ever been nice or silent in your life.

Rhubarbarian82

Is the paramedic in this thread still around? We have a burn victim.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Jesus Christ, running a country isn’t like professional sports with team cheerleading.

Contrary to the way you’re acting.

Fanraeth

Last time I checked, progressives weren’t calling for violent overthrows of the government. Perhaps that happens in the alternate universe you obviously dwell in.

Vermic

We are’nt gonna sit back and continue to let the inmates run the asylum.

Of course you are. You are going to do exactly that and you’re not fooling anyone, not even yourself. You and all your “take back the country for True Americans” internet pals are going to do exactly what you always do: sit around, talk big, fondle your guns, write checks to people who make excellent livings scamming people like you, long for a call to arms that will never ever come, and at the end of the day, either vote Republican or stay home. As usual.

This is partially because your imaginary “silent majority” is far less numerous and influential than you like to pretend, but it’s also because you’re chickenshits and everybody knows it.

Jim Roberts

It does not, however, protect you from the consequences of that speech. If I am the head of a school and also a vocal supporter of NAMBLA, it is unreasonable for me to expect to keep my job.

AnonaMiss

Idiotic racist rants are protected, yes.

Rants about overthrowing the government or shooting people, no.

Cathy W

They’re still protected (in the U.S. – your mileage may vary in other countries) unless he’s directly inciting violence, riot, or insurrection. On the other hand, this is totally unbecoming of a public servant – at the barest, feeblest minimum it calls into question his ability to enforce the law impartially.

AnonaMiss

Granted, though a) you left out that you don’t have to be inciting others, you can also be threatening to do it yourself; and b) I’m pretty sure the quoted remarks would count as incitement and threatening in a court of law if he actually committed any of the crimes he’s endorsing, and the prosecution wanted to prove premeditation.

Lori

Oh goody, yet another person who doesn’t understand the First Amendment at all yakking on about the First Amendment.

Kessler has very wide latitude in what he can say. That doesn’t mean that he can say whatever he wants and expect to keep his job. He is supposed to protect the people of Gilberton. He is apparently the only police officer in Gilberton. That means that functionally he’s on call 24/7 and therefore never on “his own time.” Setting that aside, the things he says, the activities he engages in and the groups he endorses give a fair number of Gilberton residents reason not to trust him. If he doesn’t have the trust of the residents then he can’t be an effective police officer and he shouldn’t have the job.

No one has a right to be cop. No one has a right to be a member of the school board. By keeping him in those positions of power the folks running Gilberton are not making a noble stand for the First Amendment, they’re sending a very clear message about who does and does not count in Gilberton.

LL

Yeah, this. I’ve gotten over being surprised that people don’t understand how constitutional rights work. But that doesn’t mean I don’t still feel contempt for their ignorance.

Constitutional rights protect you from the power of the federal government. They don’t allow you to say whatever you want whenever you want with no repercussions from anyone else. The First Amendment does not obligate an employer to continue your employment if your public, unhinged rants make them look bad and cause people to doubt your competence (and thus theirs). Employees (including police officers) have found themselves without a job as a result of actions they took on “their own time.” And these dismissals are perfectly legal (as long as they’re not discriminatory in nature).

The mayor’s choice to endorse the chief, and thus his public statements, is just that: a choice. She could “discipline” him, but chooses not to. So she approves of his statements. Which makes her look as incompetent and unhinged as he is. Which could come into play if the city ever gets sued as a result of some action or inaction he takes in his capacity as chief. Like, if he, for instance, beats the crap out of somebody or covers up for another officer who does. And that person sues the city for giving the chief tacit permission to regard some people as “less than” others in a way that compromised his performance of his job. I think a decent lawyer could make a pretty good, lucrative case out of that.

The First Amendment is not relevant here in any way. Just as it is not relevant in any other case in the entire country in which a person has been disciplined or terminated because of speech or actions an employer found unacceptable. Your (private) employer can’t violate your constitutional rights. The Constitution doesn’t apply to private entities.

frazer

Yes, but isn’t he a public employee? Not defending a single thing he’s said or done, but does a government employee have more protection against being fired because of something they said?

Lori

They have some protection against being fired for political speech, but not for racism or sedition.

Rowdy

Yep you really understand your Constitution don’t you. The Constitution was written as the law of the land and applies it’s rules to all citizens of this country all the time. By saying it doesn’t apply to private entities, you are saying that it doesn’t apply to people. Your an idiot, that is exactly where it applies. It is about the people, it applies to any situation that people are involved in. You can’t just turn it on or off according to how you feel about it. Better wake up and do some studying. It is exactly people that think like you do that is the problem in our country today. You think you can redefine anything you want to fit you’re agenda.

EllieMurasaki

I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying, but I suspect it boils down to “Fred banning me from this forum is an infringement of mah freeze peach”. No, it wouldn’t be. Free speech means you can say whatever you like. It doesn’t mean you can say whatever you like in any forum you like, nor does it guarantee you listeners.

Rowdy

Who the – – – – are you? Why are you making comments to me about what I said to LL read the heading in my comment it was directed to LL not you. Typical libtard nut job.

EllieMurasaki

This is a public discussion. I can respond to anything I’ve a mind to. If you don’t want to talk to me, don’t answer me.

Rowdy

With every letter you type you prove yourself to be more of an idiot. I never said anything about you not having a right to comment. Comment all you like. I just wanted to know why you come in jumping on me for things I said to LL when you were not even here. Now you are again jumping on me for things I didn’t even say. You are so stupid that you can’t even follow a trend of thought. That goes beyond stupid and is clearly what I refer to as a common characteristic of a progressive moron, you are stupignorant.

EllieMurasaki

You’re an exceedingly boring troll. Go away.

Rowdy

Boring, I seriously doubt that. A troll, no again I seriously doubt that as well. So now since I have proven that you are a retard you would rather infringe on my rights to free speech. You are a major looser

Lori

Free speech does not work the way you think it does. No one here is in any way infringing on your free speech. They can’t and wouldn’t bother even if they could.

Free speech still doesn’t mean that you can say whatever you want, wherever you want and not face any negative consequences for it. But you just keep on believing that it does and good luck with that.

Genius- the constitution protects you from the GOVERNMENT. If I stand on the street corner and carry a sign saying “Boo American No Good” I can’t be arrested. If I wear that sign to my job clearking at Wal-mart, I can easily be fired. Because Wal-mart is not covered under the First Amendment, and I’m standing on their property anyway, not the public thoroughfare.

Lori

when you were not even here

You are aware that your posts remain up and visible after you type them, right?

EllieMurasaki

He’s not even aware that my telling him to shut up is not an infringement on his freeze peach. I wouldn’t bet on him knowing a damn thing.

Rowdy

Yep typical liberal. What I said was a fact. When I responded to ellie’s comment She was not on the site. So why does she feel she has the right to get in the conversation not for the sake of being in the conversation, but simply to confront. Jumping on me for what I said to her when I wasn’t speaking to her. But like most liberals everything around them must be under their control and comply with their wishes. And they can twist anything they want around to suit their whims at the moment. Oh but beware next week if the need arises they can twist it around the other way to suit the moment. Not when your dealing with me. I will stand my ground every time.

EllieMurasaki

I could say the same of you.

Lori

When I responded to ellie’s comment She was not on the site.

So what? This is a forum, not a chat. It doesn’t matter when people are or are not here.

No one here gives a shit about your ground. If you’re so excited about Kessler and his craziness then take it to his big gun nut rally.

Rowdy

See there you go again. You are going to tell me where I can be or what I can think or feel. Do you not see the total stupidity of your comments. You just joined the ranks of stupignorant. Now you are telling me how I must format my comments. I must make my comments conform to anyone who later wants to respond to me. I bet you have never ever posted a comment that was directed to one particular person. Oh wait all of your comments have been directed at only me so now you are breaking the rules you are trying to make me comply with. That is typical.

Lori

I’m actually not telling you how you must format your comments. I’m telling that your expectations about how things work on an open intern forum are unrealistic and pointing out the entirely logical conclusion that if you want a conversation that meets your expectations you need to go somewhere else. No one made you come here. No one is making you stay. You are free to find a conversation that is more to your liking. You are not free to expect people here to conform to your totally unrealistic expectations about privacy in an open forum and about people ignoring any comment made when they were not present.

Also, you should take a look around. I’ve made plenty of comments here that weren’t directed at you.

Basically, you can huff and puff and do your whole “You’re not the boss of me” routine as much as you want, but no one here cares and you’re not the boss of us either so we don’t have to play by your rules.

AnonaMiss

Oh wait all of your comments have been directed at only me so now you are breaking the rules you are trying to make me comply with.

While it’s pretty cool that you helped put together the physical internet, please be aware that the community of internet users has developed some cultural protocols. Manners, if you will.

One of these protocols is that, unless otherwise stated, everyone is welcome to butt in to any conversation that they are able to. The host of the forum has the privilege of deciding who may or may not speak, but if the host of the forum allows you to speak, you can join any conversation, even answering questions and comments that weren’t directed at you. Our host is Fred, and he is pretty open to anyone who wants to speak speaking.

This doesn’t mean it’s impolite to direct comments at a specific person – answering their question, or asking questions of them, or commenting on what they said. In fact, that’s a good way to make it clear exactly what you’re addressing. What it does mean is that there’s no expectation that only the person you addressed will answer you.

After all, if there was an expectation that only the person you addressed was allowed to answer you – you wouldn’t have been in a conversation with LL in the first place!

Rowdy

You see there is another one. What you say is very true except that I had no problem with it being in the conversation. That was far from the problem. The problem is that it can’t read or can’t comprehend what has been read. I made comments to LL and out of the blue it shows up and starts ragging on me for trying to get it kicked off of the forum when I had not said anything to it. If it wanted to comment or be in the conversation it could be done but maligning me for saying things to it that I didn’t say started the problem and I have tried to convey that but no one here seems to have the intelligence to understand that or to go and read and see that what I am saying is he truth. so far Just a whole bunch of dimwitts have I ran into on this forum.

dpolicar

Ellie didn’t say you were trying to get Ellie kicked off the forum.

I wish you luck in finding a forum better-suited to your intelligence.

Please stop calling Ellie “it.” Continuing to do so after they’ve asked you not to is rude.

EllieMurasaki

There aren’t any “it”s capable of posting on a forum.

Rhubarbarian82

Spambots? Picking nits, I know, but it’s more interesting a topic than the RWNJ that stumbled in.

onamission5

People are not “it.” That you (seemingly deliberately) fail to comprehend gender identity does not give you a pass on your behavior.

reynard61

“It rubs the lotion on it’s skin, or else it gets the hose again…”

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Ok, right here? This?

I must make my comments conform to anyone who later wants to respond to me.

We’ve got other conservatives on here who buy into the entire freakin’ gestalt of the OMGLIBERALS WANTTO CONTROL EVERY LITTLE THING.

But you, you’re special. You’ve managed to extend it to thinking they want to control how you write your posts on a relatively unmoderated discussion forum.

caryjamesbond

I KNOW brother! Fight the powers that be! Who says we have to use paragraph breaks! After reading your comments, its clear that you’ve already figured out that grammar and punctuation are just tools Obama uses to CONTROL our THOUGHTS. Remember- you can’t spell “grammar” without “PRISM.”

Oh, you think I’m wrong? That’s just because the COMMUNISTS in control of Big Dictionary have control of your mind.

dpolicar

“why does she feel she has the right to get in the conversation” — Rowdy, 39 minutes ago

“I never said anything about you not having a right to comment.” — Rowdy, 4 minutes ago

Which of those grounds do you choose to stand, Rowdy? On your account does Ellie have a right to join the conversation, or not?

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

You really don’t get how this here Interwebs works, do you?

If you went to a private school your parents should totally demand a refund on the tuition they paid, because you didn’t seem to learn any basic logic skills or computer skills.

Right-wingers seem to have difficulty grasping the concept that their recorded words can be examined later. This mostly manifests in some idiot saying something ridiculous on national television, then contradicting it the next day and hoping no one notices.

AnonaMiss

lol wut

Welcome to the internet. Anything you say in public is a public discussion welcoming anyone who wants to join it. If you want your words to be private, contact someone privately.

Lori

You are apparently unfamiliar with the internet, so I’ll help you out—it’s not a private conversation. If you want to have a private conversation get on the phone with one of your wingnut friends and chat away.

Rowdy

Oh another nose poking idiot. Yep I am totally unfamiliar with the internet. You freakin idiot. I am an electronic engineer and started working on developing the internet back in 1972, when all it was, was a file transfer protocol we used to move files between people working on the same projects in different locations. As for private conversations, unless there is a rule on this forum that private conversations are not allowed, I don’t see where it is any of your business. Besides I was talking to someone else and she proceeded to turn this into an argument or “private conversation as you call it” Or are you another of the liberal idiots that think you can regulate others thoughts and or actions. I don’t have any problem with her jumping into the conversation, I have a problem with how she was addressing me and trying to dictate to me what I could say. I very strongly stand behind our freedoms and liberties, having laid my life on the line for my country in Vietnam, I think I have earned the right to speak out for my country. So why don’t you go get on the phone and stay out of my business.

EllieMurasaki

I’m not a she. And before you have the bright idea of misgendering me again, I’m not a he either.

Rowdy

Ha. Typical liberal, you don’t even know what you are. I guess then that you are an IT. You are not even a human being as all humans are either male or female. You are typical of the true issues plaguing America. Poor lost soul

EllieMurasaki

Thanks for telling me genderqueer people don’t exist. I shall now vanish in a puff of logic.

*stubbornly refuses to disappear*

dpolicar

> all humans are either male or female.

That turns out not to be the case.

Rowdy

Just your saying that it is not the case doesn’t make it true. ALL human beings are either male or female PERIOD. Just because that definition doesn’t fit someones lifestyle doesn’t mean that everyone on the face of the earth must change the meaning in order to comply with that person wishes. This is exactly what I am talking about. It is exactly people like you that are killing this country.

onamission5

Someone has never heard of intersex, trans* or genderqueer people. I find that hard to believe but okay. Now that you have been informed of the existence of people who do not fall neatly into a gender binary, it is on you to, you know, actually google such things and make an effort to educate yourself.

AnonaMiss

How exactly does it harm you, or the country, for someone to ask that you use a gender-non-specific pronoun to refer to them?

What are you trying to achieve by deliberately misgendering someone? What do you think you will accomplish by calling someone a liar to their face about their own gender? Do you think you will make Ellie magically start having a different experience of gender and be a good little submissive, heteronormative cisgendered woman? Because if you do, then I’d seriously look into seeing a shrink over the fact that you think you’ve got magic powers to control the subjective experience of others.

Are you just a bully? I mean, do you just do it because you take joy in hurting people? Do you also kill small animals? Do you have a collection of trophies in your closet from your various kills?

Or is it a sexual thing? Is the only way you can get hard? By misgendering strangers on the internet? Can you not reach orgasm unless you’re hurting others?

I don’t get it. Either you are one of the stupidests fucks in the history of stupid fucks, or you’re a dangerously anti-social bully who can only get hard by making others suffer. Neither of these reflect particularly well on you.

Rowdy

You are about a sick piece of shit. In you’re first paragraph I thought maybe you were just a little misunderstanding. Then the rest of the post proves that you are just a sick, perverted, demented piece of pig dung.

answers:

that it has to be one or the other, there is no non gender, it had a dick or it didn’t have a dick.

maybe wake them up just a little to reality. the dream world is getting ready to end, think reality to help you survive.

Nope.

No thanks, I laugh at shrinks. But maybe I do, I have twice in my life rendered comfort and a stable emotional environment to psychiatrist associates ( I am also a paramedic) to help them get through some very rough times.

no

no

yes

no they are on my walls, To me a small animal is an elk or a buffalo.

no

no

no How the hell can you misgender someone on the internet? Isn’t that about the most stupid thing I ever heard.

no

I know you don’t get it.

For some reason you seem to relate everything to sex. Some people actually have feelings and thoughts outside of sex. That just goes to prove how demented you are.

It really made it suffer because I refuse to except it’s way of thinking. Too bad then. Maybe the guilt is eating at it’s soul. If it thinks that is bad, wait until it gets a load of the wrath of GOD. And I could give a shit less what you think of my reflection.

EllieMurasaki

You know, sometimes I wish there were a God, just so ze could smite the shit out of people like you.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

What the fuck, you’re an “electronic engineer”, an ex-army guy, a teacher, now you’re a paramedic?

I think the real answer is “full of shit”.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

For some reason you seem to relate everything to sex. Some people actually have feelings and thoughts outside of sex. That just goes to prove how demented you are.

You really don’t seem to grok this ‘gender’ thing very well, do you?

Also, Ross was being rather snarky with you. You also don’t seem to grok that either for all that you claim 30+ years of experience with the Arpa, now Inter, net.

Run along now, go and hump that paper copy of the Constitution some more.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

You think God is going to smite someone for the sin of not considering their sense of self to be defined by how their genitals dangle?

You’re a small, stupid, petty man, and the god you believe in is a small petty stupid god. Now, I know Ellie doesn’t believe in any god. But I do. And my God hates bullies, loves humans, and is so much bigger and smarter and stronger than the imaginary playground bully you worship.

Rowdy

I don’t think that is what I said. How do you know what GOD I pray to? Well I guess actually that is a stupid question since there is only one TRUE GOD. I pray for you that when the time comes he will be merciful and understanding of your confusion in all the disinformation that is flooding our satan ridden world.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

The hubris you exhibit here is astounding in its magnitude.

Rowdy

Thank you !

Emcee, cubed

So, wait, wait. [Bwaha] We’re supposed to believe that the guy [bwahaha] who claims to be a Constitutional teacher, but doesn’t know how the First Amendment works; [BWAHAHA] who claims to be a veteran but doesn’t know that Russia is a Constitutional Republic; [SNORT] who claims to be a paramedic but doesn’t know biology very well; [GIGGLE GIGGLE] who pretends to be a patriot but thinks armed insurrection against the duly elected government is somehow acceptable [LOLOLOLOL] has somehow been able to pick out the ONE TRUE GOD among not only the hundreds of thousands in the world, but among the widely different characterizations of the Christian god?? REALLY?!?! [BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!] No, seriously, with his track record, I think his “god” would be an easy one to rule out….

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

maybe wake them up just a little to reality. the dream world is getting ready to end, think reality to help you survive.

Sorry, doesn’t fly. There’s no scenario in which being a monsterous gaping asshole to someone might make them “wake up” and accept your version of reality. Do you honestly expect any of us to believe that you actually thought “Oh dear; here is a person who is laboring under a false delusion about their gender. Maybe if I insult them and treat them like shit, they’ll see the light!”? It could not possibly accomplish what you claim, and what’s more, you must know this. WHich means you’re lying. You’re not trying to make anyone “wake up”, you’re just trying to cause pain.

Carstonio

Do you honestly expect any of us to believe that you actually thought “Oh dear; here is a person who is laboring under a false delusion about their gender. Maybe if I insult them and treat them like shit, they’ll see the light!”?

Didn’t you know? Society has to enforce sexual identity or else it will cease to exist. Imagine the terror of walking the streets and not being able to categorize anyone sexually. It’s the gender ambiguity version of the zombie apocalypse.

Fanraeth

Just because you’ve never heard of intersex conditions, whether genetic or biological, does not mean they do not exist. You are not the sole arbiter of reality.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

While it may be true for about 99% of the human population that their chromosomal assignment accords with their perception of their gender, for the remaining circa 1% of the population, that is not so. You are at best guilty of oversimplifying the discussion.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

More to the point, what the fuck good could come out of disagreeing with anyone’s self-assessment of their own gender?

Mary

Somehow I don’t think he is very concerned about the complexities of life since he thinks he is right about everything That is the conservative mindset. It makes life so much simpler for them. They don’t have to think things through like the rest of us….

P J Evans

Failed biology as well as reading and logic, it seems.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Psychologically or biologically, much less culturally or several other *allys I can’t be arsed to name. XD

onamission5

It is supremely shitty to deny a person’s preferred gender, and even shittier to call a human being “it.”

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Given the number of times you’ve accused someone of being a “typical liberal”, either the “typical liberal” is a wide and varied thing, or you don’t know what the word “typical” is.

Incidentally, tossing around the word “retard” as an insult is a mark of you being a terrible human being. But that is neither here nor there to why I suggest you not be so fast to insult the intelligence of other people.

Rowdy

Sorry, but when you poke stupid in my face I am going to call it what it is.

Ross has been here for years. You just showed up today. The only nose being poked in here is yours.

Lori

Do the lurkers support you in email, too?

There is no issue of private conversations not being “allowed”. Private conversations are not possible. Your posts are public. If you don’t want to have public conversations go elsewhere. If you want people here to stay out of your business then take your business somewhere else.

As for your military service, thanks for your efforts. It’s still a shame that you don’t have an accurate understanding of the freedoms you fought for.

Rowdy

Oh but I very much do and I will stand on them and for them until the day I die. It is people like you that do not have a clue about what it is that made America strong. It is people like you that collectively make America week, and despicable. For your information I teach Constitution classes three days a week in three towns, and most of my students compliment me continually on my true understanding of the Constitution and it’s value. You see I don’t just read it and then find ways to distort what the founders meant. I have spent hundreds more hours studying the correspondence between the founders as to their intent when they were writing the Constitution. Many of the distortions you folks lay on the Constitution can very easily be debunked by studying exactly what was meant when they did their work, not how it can be distorted and manipulated by usurpers many times relying on the changes in the language from then to now. But when you really study what they were saying to one another you can clearly understand what it truly says. And basically it means exactly what is written.

Oh and believe me, you nor anyone else are going to tell me to comply or take my business elsewhere. I will bristle up like you won’t believe.

Lori

For your information I teach Constitution classes three days a week in three towns, and most of my students compliment me continually on my true understanding of the Constitution and it’s value.

You fought in Viet Nam, you invented the internet and now you teach the Constitution? You have truly lived an interesting and varied life. Were you also a SEAL or a member of Delta Force?

As for the compliments you receive from your Constitution students, if you’re their only source of understanding then they really have no basis to judge your expertise. Since you do not understand the First Amendment I can only hope that at some point in the future they’ll be exposed to accurate information.

AnonaMiss

So – what are your qualifications for teaching this class on the US constitution? Hundreds of hours of independent study, apparently, but have you done any formal coursework on the subject?

Because, you know, for example, there’s this guy named Edward Snowden who could really use the protections your version of the first amendment has, for any and every kind of speech to anyone in any context. And I’d better go pop in to the Bradley Manning trial and let the tribunal know that there’s been a horrible mistake.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I teach Constitution classes three days a week in three towns

I advise you to give back all the money paid to you to teach those classes.

That is, if you’re even telling the truth about yourself.

It’s okay – Chris Hadrick (a similarly rather monomaniacal right-wing commenter) couldn’t seem to make up his mind whether he was a vet or a UPS driver so I am not surprised you have the same problem of deciding what is true about your job.

You see I don’t just read it and then find ways to distort what the founders meant.

Ok, you clearly do hump that paper copy of it at night.

Regardless, don’t insist on your fetishization being the only correct way to read it.

caryjamesbond

What, exactly is a “constitution class”? I’ve heard of classes on constitutional law, of course, but those are mainly taught at law schools, by lawyers. And I suppose some lcolleges might have courses specifically on the constitution….taught by college professors.

What institutes do you teach at? Are they accredited? Can you give us a list of the required and suggested readings for this course? How about some of the test questions you ask?

You know- proof that you aren’t making shit up?

Rhubarbarian82

What, exactly is a “constitution class”?

The Constitution class included the premiere Starfleet vessels in the latter half of the 23rd century, the most famous being the NC-1701A USS Enterprise.

BaseDeltaZero

And the NC-1701 (no A). Otherwise, win.

caryjamesbond

I will bristle up like you won’t believe.

Ladies, gents, and non-gendered persons- I present, ROWDY- Inventor of the Internet, Army Ranger, independent business owner, winner of awards for communication, teacher of constitution classes- and kitty cat!

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I am an electronic engineer and started working on developing the internet back in 1972, when all it was, was a file transfer protocol we used to move files between people working on the same projects in different locations.

I’m just gonna try to sidestep the sheer massive pile of bullshit I see rumbling down the mountain at me.

William Dhalgren

You were in Vietnam? Too bad your name’s not on a black wall in Washington. It would be a better America.

AnonaMiss

Dude, not cool.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I also have to wonder what it is with people like you who have no problem dumping all over “libtards” and then being weird prudes about swearwords.

Lori

You have no clue. You should not get your Constitutional knowledge from Red State and Fox News, because this is not what the First Amendment says at all.

dpolicar

That turns out not to be the case.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Oh god, do you hump a paper copy of the Constitution at night or something because sheesh, people like you seem to have no ability to do anything but fetishize this abstract idea of what you think the Constitution is like it was some kind of holy monolith or something

Shane Clower

Obscenity and Prior Restraint.—Only in the obscenity area has there emerged a substantial consideration of the doctrine of prior restraint and the doctrine’s use there may be based upon the proposition that obscenity is not a protected form of expression.65 In Kingsley Books v. Brown,66 the Court upheld a state statute which, while it embodied some features of prior restraint, was seen as having little more restraining effect than an ordinary criminal statute; that is, the law’s penalties applied only after publication. But in Times Film Corp. v. City of Chicago,67 a divided Court specifically affirmed that, at least in the case of motion pictures, the First Amendment did not proscribe a licensing system under which a board of censors could refuse to license for public exhibition films which it found to be obscene. Books and periodicals may also be subjected to some forms of prior restraint,68 but the thrust of the Court’s opinions in this area with regard to all forms of communication has been to establish strict standards of procedural protections to ensure that the censoring agency bears the burden of proof on obscenity, that only a judicial order can restrain exhibition, and that a prompt final judicial decision is assured.69

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

But the mayor did something other than refuse to violate his first amendment rights by having him arrested. This would only be a “Shrug; it’s his right to say what he wants on his own time” case if he was facing legal action. He’s not. He demonstrated through is actions that he is Not The Sort Of Person who ought to be trusted in a position of power; she should have condemned him and asked him to resign of his own free will because his perfectly legal statements demonstrate that he is radically unqualified for his job. He’s got the right to free speech; he doesn’t have the right to be sheriff.

Jared James

I agree, and by not asking for his resignation, the mayor proved herself radically unqualified to do her job, either, but it seems reasonable to presume until contradicting evidence comes to light, that radically unqualified, racist idiots are who the people of Schuylkill County want in office.

http://www.oliviareviews.com/ PepperjackCandy

If he’s not doing it in his official capacity, it’s really no different than if the president, say, goes to sunday Mass.

Humans don’t see “on the job” and “on personal time.” Not really. Let’s take a more visible example than politicians — actors. The proliferation of the paparazzi shows the extent to which this gap is absent from our awareness (as a species, not individually). We can see Brad Pitt whenever we load “Fight Club” into the disk player of our choice, and we can even see “Brangelina” together in “Mr. and Mrs. Smith.” This, we think, gives us the right to see them whenever we want, and doing whatever they’re doing. At the beginning of a successful acting career, actors also run a risk of being “typecast,” which is when an actor is offered the same kind of role over and over.

Both of these are, at least in part, because when we see a face that we know, we have expectations of what will happen. If we see the face of the chief of police exhorting us to violence, we won’t say, “But he was on his downtime.” We’ll see the chief of police encouraging the violent overthrow of the government. It may not be technically illegal but it’s not defensible either.

Eric Boersma

The President going to Church of any kind is not at all like someone making a borderline suggestion and going so far as to organizing a group devoted to the task of overthrowing the legally elected US government.

One is going to church. The other is sedition.

Shane Clower

Certain expression, oral or written, may incite, urge, counsel, advocate, or importune the commission of criminal conduct; other expression, such as picketing, demonstrating, and engaging in certain forms of “symbolic” action may either counsel the commission of criminal conduct or itself constitute criminal conduct. Leaving aside for the moment the problem of “speech–plus” communication, it becomes necessary to determine when expression that may be a nexus to criminal conduct is subject to punishment and restraint.

Shane Clower

although the rights of free speech and assembly are fundamental, they are not in their nature absolute. Their exercise is subject to restriction, if the particular restriction proposed is required in order to protect the State from destruction or from serious injury, political, economic or moral.”74 The fixing of a standard is necessary, by which it can be determined what degree of evil is sufficiently substantial to justify resort to abridgment of speech and press and assembly as a means of protection and how clear and imminent and likely the danger is.75

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Tuesday on his Facebook page, Kessler called for a massive rally to “show these tyrants we will not stand for any more violations on our constitution or our freedoms.”

Isn’t he, you know, in the government? Part of that omgtyrannical apparatus?

I always have to marvel at the sheer capacity for mutual contradiction in points of view to be held by a human being with little trouble.

J_Enigma32

No, no. See, the government is this clandestine organization of Liberals that’s part of the Age of Aquarius that’s here to slowly overthrow our democracy, so we need to turn to businesses like ALEC, which will destroy it out in the open rather than behind closed doors.

I see this all the time, and I was arguing with my dad about this the other day. You say “government is going to take our stuff”, well, I’m sure you don’t mean the USPS, even though the USPS is the government. I’m sure you don’t mean the teachers a public schools, or social service workers, or any one else.

The most successful meme the Right has managed to spread is that “the Government” is this shadowy, malevolent organization detached from the stuff that benefits us on a day-to-day basis. This artificial division has spread to the foundation of American society, leading to an “Us v. Them” scenario between the people and the government. In a country where, you know, the people are the government, because it says right there in the fucking Preamble (“A government of the people, by the people, for the people”).

That artificial division has lead to the decline of democracy (what good does it do, I can vote but it changes nothing) to the point where these have become self-fulfilling prophecies. And I can’t see anyway around or out of that :-/

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

The fact that this belief is so widespread is probably an inevitable byproduct of the late-empire stage of superpower development. :(

http://againstjebelallawz.wordpress.com/ Enopoletus Harding

“A government of the people, by the people, for the people” isn’t in the Preamble.

J_Enigma32

You’d be right. It comes from the Gettysburg Address. I’m not entirely sure why I thought it was from the Preamble; I can quote it by heart.

However, given how democracy works and how it’s outlined in the Constitution, the phrase is still relevant, if not misplaced by my rhetoric.

Charby

(I mention this only to ridicule the ridiculous, not to highlight the enormous potential for righteous mischief.)

Enormous potential, you say? Can I get some examples of some pranks that absolutely no one should ever try to pull here? Just so I know what’s definitely off-limits?

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I should think any prank which has the potential of seriously harming the intended object of the prank should not be done.

People say “Common sense isn’t”, but really, any person who can think can reasonably deduce certain things as a consequence of a prank, and that’s common sense.

So if you substitute Folger’s for the Starbucks coffee in the coffeemaker, that’s probably fine (all that will happen is the coffee will taste different and the drinker might be annoyed by that, but no harm done in the long run)

But adding castor oil to said coffee? No.

friendlier

This is what all that 90’s ‘modern primitive’ crap has led to.

Nequam

Huh, and here I thought it simply led to a glut of now-cliche tribal spiky tattoos and ear gauges.

CoolHandLNC

Kessler is pretty pathetic. His need for guns, profanity, bullying, and bluster clearly arises from deep personal insecurity. And he talks of manning up and growing some! “Unmask his ego, and you unmask a coward”

Yeah, see, stuff like this is what causes me to be amused when people bitch about “the South” or Texas or just generally imply that this area of the country has a lock on willful ignorance and assholishness. It doesn’t.

There are plenty of ignorant assholes all over this great land (that we killed many native Americans to get). Many of them hold public office, which explains why America is still so effed up. We’ve put assholes in charge of things assholes should never be allowed to be in charge of. Government. Law enforcement. Religion. Corporations.

Lori

Salon failed to note that Kessler is also a big old homophobe. Color me shocked. /sarcasm.

“All the liberals are going to cause a civil war, and that’s morally bad of them. Fortunately, we Real True Patriots are going to kill every last one of them because we worship the Civil War and have looked forward to having another ever since it happened to finally getting a second chance at it. We are awesome.”

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

“Because of all this, he says it would not be the act of a bent hnau if our people killed all your people.”

J_Enigma32

I believe someone on this board described the second War of American Secession as “cut off the money spigot and watch them flounder.” A bunch of white people running around with guns pretending to be John Wayne won’t last once they realize they’re fighting at trained military that can play tag with bunker busters from half a continent away.

Now presenting: “American Civil War II: Turns Out The Turner DiariesWere Fiction, After All (And Horrible Fiction At That).”

AnonaMiss

Eh, if it did come down to it, I suspect a fair amount of the military would side with the Murdoch Empire. The first year would be fairly tense.

After the first year, though, the defectors would rapidly deteriorate due to the cut-off-the-money-spigot thing.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I’m just praying Canada doesn’t get caught in the crossfire if the fighting hits the northern border.

rizzo

Meh, this is nothing. Girardville, the town just up the road, is absolutely full of vampires. Seriously, I go through it every year to go to and from Knoebels and there are only people out at night, never during the day.

Oh and everyone should go to Knoebels, it’s the one of the only good amusement parks left in the country.

SisterCoyote

(I mention this only to ridicule the ridiculous, not to highlight the enormous potential for righteous mischief.)

“Basically he’s the least qualified, least intelligent, least reputable law enforcement official in the area since the police chief in nearby Shenandoah wound up in prison for obstructing justice in the beating death of a Hispanic man.”

Wouldn’t know as I never watched “Breaking Bad.” But I do know a leftist jackass when I hear them speak, see what they write, type. Their thinking skills are not top notch.

Jon Altman

Just one comment-from Mississippi-the saying about Pennsylvania is that it’s Pittsburgh on one side, Philadelphia on the other and ALABAMA in between.

P J Evans

I’ve seen references to Pennsyltucky. I know there’s some truth to that one; I have cousins who were born in KY and live in PA. Right-wing, too.

2BRKnot2B

Let’s not forget West Virginia. Lot of right wing folks there, too. Of course, a lot of Democrats who have been abandoned by the part of their past while it has been infil’traitor’ed by communists & NAZI’s, and they being too blind to see it.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

In 2011, while off duty in a bar, Kessler intervened in a fight and drew his weapon. He shot himself in the hand

So he’s a dumbass who tried foisting off his own stupidity onto the alleged criminal, only for the smarter cops to smack that one down.

Sheesh. I suppose I can be thankful he doesn’t have to try and remember to breathe because his autonomic nervous system is at least capable of that.

2BRKnot2B

I once saw a guy catch a bullet with his teeth.

AnonaMiss

You… you do know that’s a magic trick, right? It’s misdirection. Palm the bullet, have your assistant fire a blank, act a little.

Seriously, consider the physics. Even if you did manage to catch a bullet in your teeth, the teeth in question would be partially sheared away and you’d have a bloody hole in the back of your throat.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Mythbusters rather conclusively demonstrated that. The velocity of the bullet is so great that it’s not even feasible that you could close your teeth down on it in time, and if you did, it would just shatter your teeth and continue onward. In the end, they were only able to replicate the myth with a metal jaw wired up to a precise timer, and even then, it was difficult to do it more than once.

antiscreed

Rofl. You liberal asswipes are pathetic to the core. Good thing to know you are not armed.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Faulty assumption. There are a number of hunters and gun enthusiasts here.

antiscreed

Not true dipshit.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

What a completely fucking stupid argument to make. You’re not doing yourself any favors.

antiscreed

Favors? You are the enemy asshole. And we don’t take or solicit advice from the enemy. Get used to it pussyboy.

Lori

You call your fellow Americans the enemy and then claim to love this country? Man, that is rich.

antiscreed

You are not an American. And we know it. And no …the enemy within is you.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

You would have done very well as a jackbooted thug of any number of rabid Inquisition-type movements that have existed throughout the centuries.

Hint: Whenever someone says “You are not a (X)” and the follows it up with talk of how anyone who is not (X) is an enemy, that’s a bad sign.

Lori

Man, who died and put you in charge of the Office of Who Is And Is Not An American?

The Founding Fathers laid out the rules for who is an American. I meet them, whether you like it or not. I know it’s hard out there for a hater. Have you considered moving to Russia? You sound like you’d fit right in with their violent skinheads.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

We have such an office and people like this can be in charge of it? Man, no wonder they’re so afraid of Sharia Law. They’ve done it to themselves. :p

Do you speak to your parents with that mouth? Because if I were your father and I caught you mouthing off like that to women I’d take away your car keys for starters, and then make you handwrite apology letters.

2BRKnot2B

Being born in America doesn’t make you American The founders also laid out rules for us to play by, yet every time I turn around the left is ignoring them, or making laws contrary to it, Lori. American has a meaning. Freedom, individual rights, personal responsibility, infringe, all have meanings. Perhaps some day you should look them up, read the constitution, and see if you truly are an American. Even Russians now laugh at our leftist administration, and the non-American (Natural Born Citizen) pussy boy Ovomit who you have placed in the seat of power.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Obama is to the right of Nixon, you are delusional.

dpolicar

> Even Russians now laugh at our leftist administration

I could have sworn, back when President Bush Jr. was in office, that Americans weren’t supposed to care what foreigners think of our President. Let alone what Russians think of our President.

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

phantomreader42

Ah, yet another sociopathic fascist who babbles about how much he loves America but hates everyone who lives there and everything it stands for. You are not an American. You’re just a piece of shit.

Jenny Islander

No, he is, as far as we can tell, an actual factual American citizen. He’s just busy lighting a nice fire in the hold of the ship and threatening to shoot anyone who points out that he is doing something stupid. Because MURICUH means I DO WUT I WAN and NOBODY TELLS ME WUT TA DO NUH UH.

Basically somebody who can’t tell the difference between the letters of Tom Paine and reruns of Maury Povich. What my late MIL used to call a natural born damn fool.

Lori

So you are a really for true patriot who loves this country and the Constitution sooooo much and you’re soooo much better then us horrible Liberals and that’s the reason you feel perfectly free to do just what you’re (falsely) accusing us of doing—making shit up to suit your own preferences? You should look up the meaning of the word hypocrite.

J_Enigma32

America has meaning.

That meaning does not include you.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

My god, if you were a dog you’d be humping the Washington Monument day in and day out.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Don’t think you’re fooling anyone, brain-dead cowardly america-hater. WHen you say Obama isn’t american, we all know what you mean. I imagine you’d be willing to grant that he counts as three fifths an american.

G’head. Say the word you’re thinking. I won’t like you any better, but I’ll at least respect your honesty.

BaseDeltaZero

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

You mean that Constitution?

Emcee, cubed

Talk about ignoring them?? According to the Constitution, that very document you are talking about, being born in America does, in fact, make you an American. That is the rule the founders laid out for us to play by. Period. As I said before, for a bunch of people who fetishize the Constitution, you don’t seem to like what it actually says.

phantomreader42

Thank you for openly admitting that you are a Nazi traitor. Take your worthless stinking traitor ass the fuck out of this country.

antiscreed

Lol @Nazi. Your education is sorely lacking pussy.

AnonaMiss

My education is into men, actually.

J_Enigma32

How are you within me? Your head is stuck up YOUR ass, not mine.

2BRKnot2B

Fellow Americans do not act as tho’ traitors to its constitution. If you were true Patriotic Americans, you would give up your leftist views, and enjoin with the truth that’ll set you free. Instead, remain with your enslaving cock-amamie Marxist views, because all you’re going to do is destroy the very country you claim to admire. Admire for what? Taking from the wealthy & giving to the poor at your behest, and through the power of the constabulary? You want my money, come take it out of my wallet personally. Then we’ll talk, well, I’ll talk, you’ll listen from 6′ under, having been taught a lessen about real civility.

phantomreader42

You don’t know the first fucking thing about the Constitution, you lying traitorous sack of shit. Go die in a fucking fire.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Yes because civility is MEANT to be enforced at the point of a gun.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Don’t you know, an armed society is a polite society. Which is why the US is so well known for its courtesy, while countries with more restrictive gun laws are known for their crassness and rudeness.

BaseDeltaZero

I think it’s more something specific to a particular subset of America (the militia-redneck types) than gun owners…

J_Enigma32

Damn it. You’re making it so easy it’s hard. I don’t even know where to start sniping at your bullshit; there’s just so much of it I better get a fucking hose and wash you down… but then there might not be anything left.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again?

(Fact: I am physically incapable of saying that without doing it on a Gollum voice and adding “precious!”)

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

What is it with you Constitution-humping Libertarian types? You’re so focussed on this idea of an abstractly perfect United States run by you and your ilk that you have no idea how crude you sound in reallity.

Because “six feet under”? That’s a threat. In my country, there are laws about uttering threats.

caryjamesbond

en·join

/enˈjoin/ Verb Instruct or urge (someone) to do something. Prescribe (an action or attitude) to be performed or adopted: “the charitable deeds enjoined on him by religion”.

You cannot “enjoin with” unless you and someone else are both exhorting, instructing, or urging someone to do something. Sweet high-tittied Jesus- I’d say “don’t use big words you don’t understand” but it’s two freakin’ syllables. You think I’m going to join a revolution for illiterates? And cockamamie doesn’t have a hyphen. Also, in re: your last sentence. It’s fine to threaten people, but abusing the poor, innocent comma in that brutal fashion?

You’re a MONSTER.

J_Enigma32

No, clearly you don’t. Because if you did, you’d still be stupid, but at least you wouldn’t be opening your mouth and proving it.

antiscreed

Lol you people are lost. Keep it up. Every single post reads like children threatened that their messiah has failed them and slash at anything possible to separate themselves from the responsibility of fucking up so badly. You people are dead to life. And we will still enjoy watching you fall. You’ve already started to.

Emcee, cubed

Translation: WAAAAAAHHH! People are happy!! WAAAAAHHHH!!! I’m not happy, so no one should be able to be happy!!! WAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

J_Enigma32

Every single post, you say! Egads man!

Clearly he’s upset we’re writing at his education level, people. He’s complaining about it, now – it’s time to step it up to a 3rd grade level, so he can feel like a big boy when reading the insults he so richly deserves.

themunck

Funnily enough, this statement is actually correct, due to the lack of comma. Observe: “Not true, dipshit” = “You are incorrect and I don’t mind looking like an idiot for verbally abusing you after your innocent correction of my statement” “Not true dipshit” = “Your statement contains no actual dipshit”. This also implies that the statement contains only actual facts. Remember, kids. Grammar matters.

Feygele Goy

I was enjoying the phrase “enemy asshole”, myself.

TheBCow

Hi, I’m BCow, dedicated liberal asswipe, believer in stricter gun control and owner of 3 rifles and a handgun. Pleased to make your acquaintance.

If it will make you feel any better, I’m perfectly willing to concede that my gun collection is probably smaller than yours and that I am also probably less homicidal. Additionally, I will admit that I am probably woefully inadequate as a paragon of whatever brand of manliness you subscribe to. This should save you the need to go full on roid-raging internet tough guy.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Thing about these idiots and their gun collections.

They still only got two hands.

Lori

And after they shoot themselves in the hand like manly man Kessler did, they’re down to one.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I still can’t get over how a guy like that shoots his hand. I mean, how badly does he have to not be paying attention for that to happen? (O_O)

Lori

Better yet, the story implied that he tried to play off like someone else had shot him. I can’t think of any other reason why the investigator would have specifically noted that no one else had a gun.

And these are the people who are going to defend Real True ‘Murica with their super awesome gun skillz. Thank FSM we don’t actually need that to work because clearly, no.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

I recall someone ripped apart that fantasy once, something to the effect of “if it really does go down, most of you are going to slip and fall on some rusty piece of lawn maintenance machinery in the basement and either die of tetanus or have a massive coronary anyway.”

It more reminds me of the first few chapters of Stephen King’s The Stand. A genetically engineered supervirus wipes out 99% of the population. Of the remaining 1%, a huge number die purely out of their own stupidity or random mischance — locking themselves in the freezer, stealing a huge bag of cocaine and ODing on it, shooting themselves with their own guns, etc.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

That was the best part of that book(especially that nasty piece of work who locked herself in the freezer).

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

It’s been about a decade since I read it, but I remember getting chills from the refrain, something to the effect of “No big deal.”

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

No Big Loss

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

That’s it! A good refrain can add power to any series of scenes. It’s a technique few people can pull off effectively, but when it works…

I actually thought The Stand movie wasn’t that bad either. The intro of hundreds of people slumped dead in their chairs or where they were standing while Don’t Fear the Reaper plays… wow.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

That’s one of the better SK adaptations, yes. I’ve been reading about Under The Dome. Oh, Lord and Lady, it’s bad. Whoever did the adaptation completely missed the 9/11 allegory of the story(and the thin characters that implies) and is instead trying to make it a character drama.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

I couldn’t finish that. I saw the 9/11 allegory, but, ugh, it was shaping up to be a very miserable and predictable book by page 150 or so.

Another horrible adaption: The Mist. I want to slap Frank Darabont for the new ending.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

It was predictable, but I still found it fascinating. Crap ending though, you didn’t miss out on anything by skipping that.

Fanraeth

I watched the pilot without ever having read the book and couldn’t believe how bad it was. Some of the worst television I’ve seen in ages.

2BRKnot2B

You know another movie that doesn’t get talked about very much, but is about government seeking to control the populace is “Serenity.” In it, a whole planet is killed off by giving its population a drug which would stop them from being mean, nasty, violent, to each other. The result was a people who simply sat, stood, whatever they happened to be doing, and died in place. The few who did survive became raving lunatic animals, murderers, rapists, etc. It is really telling about the consequences involved in seeking to control a whole population like the left seeks to do.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Yeah, and that movie was written by some crazy, humanist, athiest, leftist, BUT THAT WAS JUST TO BLIND US TO THE POSSIBILITY!!!

Oh, and it’s science fiction.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Yeah, there’s nothing quite like making a point by writing a work of fiction in the realm of fantasy. I just wrote a short story in which a man named 2BRKnot2B undergoes a dangerous operation to become half-man, half-dolphin, in order to join his ancestors in the ocean. I’m thinking of calling it Too Fin to Fail. It totally proves how people named 2BRKnot2B have issues with body dysmorphism.

phantomreader42

The fact that you’re a wannabe Reaver doesn’t make you look like anything but a useless, pathetic asshole.

dpolicar

Ah! No doubt that explains why Serenity, Firefly, and really the whole Joss Whedon mythos is ignored among American lefty types, especially college students, and so utterly despised among the few who deign to notice it.

I’m not sure why I would get two people giving a thumbs down on simply reporting about a movie. Seems someone has some paranoia issues.

2BRKnot2B

Well, then, what about this. G. Edward Griffin has a lot of youtube videos pointing out through interviews, timelines, etc., what the left is trying to do here in America, and has, at this point, almost accomplished unless the people wake up real soon.

That guy is no better than Glenn Beck drawing lines on a white board and pretending that those lines mean that things are connected. IOW, he’s full totally full of shit.

Emcee, cubed

My guess would be because it was rather obviously that you completely misunderstood what the movie was about, tried to pawn it off as some right-wing wankfest, and attempted to co-opt a much-beloved movie, series and writer to a cause for which there is utter loathing and disgust? But, you know, that’s just a guess…

Jenny Islander

I don’t like how they dressed Frances for the movie. The plot makes a big thing about how skeeved out she is by Harold’s greasy gaze and how she wouldn’t even be within a mile of him if they weren’t the only two survivors in Ogunquit, but the costume department dresses her like one of Harold’s fantasy girls.

Jenny Islander

The “No Great Loss” chapter contains some heartbreaking scenes, like the poor woman who was so brainwashed by her mother into fearing all men that she tries to shoot the first survivor she sees with an old revolver that blows up and kills her, or the little boy who is wandering around in shock and falls into an old well.

Really, The Stand is what Left Behind wants to grow up to be. It takes the premise, “What if God had this checklist of arbitrary and monstrous acts?” and runs with it. But the older editions that weren’t updated are much better–the ’70s atmosphere of paranoia and unrest fits the premise more closely than the early-’90’s revision with Madonna in it.

I still get the itch to rewrite it with the rest of the faith spectrum in it, though. The only believing Catholic we meet in the book is a bit character who dies. I want to read the same story with mainstream Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc., asking questions the whole time.

And, hey, didn’t I post something like this earlier? Did Disqus eat it?

Lori

Alec Baldwin and Antoney Hopkins did an almost entirely forgettable film together several years ago in which they play 2 guys who get stuck in the Alaskan bush together. The one memorable line in the whole movie is when Hopkin’s says that he once read in a book that most people who die in the wild die of shame because they stupidly failed to do the one thing that would have saved them—thinking.

Jenny Islander

Oh, that was a good one, actually. Hopkins played someone whose knowledge of the Bush was like that of d’Artagnan, and the contrast between the things he’d read in his survival handbooks and the reality around him provided a lot of the drama.

Lori

That was the good part. The fighting over The Girl bits, not so much.

2BRKnot2B

I doubt anyone who would get in your bush would be doing so because they were thinking, Lori. Well, if thinking they would be doing it with the wrong head.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

And now you descend into inappropriately sexualizing comments. I bet you’re a real prince among men.

phantomreader42

I don’t know, he seems like a lot of princes. Arrogant. Narcissistic. Inbred. Hopelessly incompetent. Unshakably convinced of his own superiority despite that. Eager to kill people, but too cowardly to get his own hands dirty. Never did any actual useful work in his entire life. Totally incapable of surviving five minutes without the constant aid of people he considers his inferiors. Also totally incapable of showing any gratitude. Likely to die alone and unloved. Yeah, so very princely.

Lori

And Rowdy was chiding us for making everything about sex. Grandpa Gun Nut clearly needs to have a little chat with his own before he starts complaining about us.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Do you seriously try come-on lines like that with women IRL? Because that wasn’t funny.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Reminds me of this short story about a man who self-admittedly lacked imagination and got caught out in the cold. So he mechanically went through all the stuff you’re supposed to do, and completely failed to notice that the trees were getting heavier with snow and that the warmth from the fire was melfing the snow above his tree. As a result, the snow collapsed down on him when he was sleeping and he froze to death.

The moral is, he didn’t have the skills to ask himself, “If I do this, what will happen?” as that takes a certain use of imagination.

AnonaMiss

That’s To Build A Fire by Jack London. It didn’t have a moral, except maybe “Don’t be so sure you don’t need anyone’s help.”

The character didn’t so much lack imagination, as not think through his fire location out of panic and time pressure. He had broken through the ice on a frozen river and had minutes to build a fire before he passed the point of no return wrt hypothermia.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Ah :) My English teacher laid more emphasis on the imagination aspect of things.

AnonaMiss

While I can see that angle, I feel like it actually undermines the point of the story. It unfolds throughout the story that this guy had been told over and over not to go out into the wild without a partner to help you in case you get into a jam, but that he has such a high opinion of himself that he’s sure he doesn’t need any help.

Placing the point of failure at ‘well if he’d thought through the consequences of where he built his fire he’d be OK’ would imply that the problem was that he wasn’t good enough to survive out there on his own. Whereas the fact that he really has been shown to be a smart, competent outdoorsman throughout the story up to that point underscores that anyone could make this mistake – that there is no man so great that he doesn’t need help.

(I know this was your teacher’s opinion not yours so I don’t expect you to argue the point; it’s just one of my favorite stories and the moral seems relevant to the blog! I recommend rereading it sometime if you get the chance, the scenery porn alone is spectacular.)

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

This one case was really freaky. This woman locked herself in a pre-1960s walk-in fridge which didn’t have the safety features so you wouldn’t lock yourself inside. :O

Fanraeth

I’m reading The Stand for the first time right now and that chapter was easily the creepiest part of the book so far for me.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

And dual-wielding is a lot less effective than the movies make it look!

Lori

Especially after you shoot yourself in the hand.

2BRKnot2B

Guy asked me one time why I carry multiple guns on my person. I told him I got two hands. You are quite correct Aeryl. Two hands throwing lead are better than one, and making sure you have more than ten rounds to kill your opponents, criminal gang members, or deer is fine by me. Asscap ‘L’il Duce’ Cuomo can shove his S.A.F.E. Law up his skinny, left twisted ass.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Really, you don’t have any problems at all with, I don’t know, aiming? Or do you just count on the idea that unwashed masses are going to charge your house and you’ll mow them down indiscriminately like a horde of zombies?

This fantasy role-playing is fun. Me next! I’m a tenth rank archmage. I use Bluster’s Bigass Infernoball to destroy the rebel alliance!

phantomreader42

When you’re too stupid to hit the broadside of a barn from three inches away, you don’t really have to worry about a dual-wielding penalty.

Yeah. Dual wielding is totally a thing. Which why any professional shooter ever has recommended it.

Wait, what’s that? They haven’t? Huh…

J_Enigma32

You can’t trust a man with multiple watches to know the time, and you can’t trust a man with multiple guns to know how to shoot. Your hero is a good example, actually.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Oh my god, you’re multiplying.

What is it with people like you who would probably marry your goddamn gun collection if it were legal to do so? The way you talk about guns and shooting them has a very skeevily affectionate tone to it.

I’m getting that he think birdshot is all we namby pamby liberals will put in our shotguns.

EllieMurasaki

Hey, the thread came back round into pertinence! Is a shotgun full of birdshot what one would use for hunting swans? I’m rewriting Swan Lake in the present day, you see, and a crossbow simply won’t do.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Sure, you COULD use bigger shot, but then you wouldn’t have much bird left.

EllieMurasaki

…okay, so what would one actually use for hunting swans when one wants to have most of the bird left, then?

Lori

Why is the person hunting the swan (aside from the fact that they’re just mean, nasty birds) and why do they care about having a good deal of bird left? TTBOMK swan is technically edible, but rather gross so no one eats it and if the person is just doing pest eradication shredding the bird isn’t a problem.

EllieMurasaki

…excellent question I shall have to figure out the answer to, thank you.

I am not okay with hunting a thing just to be able to say one successfully hunted the thing. My character may disagree, but I don’t know yet. Thanks for the link, though.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

*Reads the ballet* Oh, huh. That’s a bit more grim than the Mercedes Lackey take on it (but then again, Lackey prefers happy endings). I’m not sure what the modern equivalence would be, but yon hunter could be after other game and just happen upon the lake and see ‘Odette’ — I think that’s how the story is generally interpreted, rather than that he was actually hunting a swan specifically.

EllieMurasaki

There’s several endings to the ballet and at least one’s happy. Lackey seems to have patched two or three of them together with a major twist. Hm. Maybe he’s after duck or goose. Thanks!

Jenny Islander

If you want to relocate it further north, you can have him hunting swans under Alaska subsistence regs, which are online if you want to check them out.

EllieMurasaki

Hm. Okay. Thanks.

Rhubarbarian82

Yeah, if you’re hunting a thing just to be able to brag that you bagged it, it had better be something more impressive than shooting a swan with a rifle.

If you can take down a hippo with a knife, I might be impressed.

ETA: “You” obviously not being, you know, you.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

So, I did not know this until I went to the Aquarium in Camden a couple of months ago. I always thought that Hippos hung out in shallow water with just their heads visible.

Not so. Hippos normally hang out in deep water, and lay on the bottom, several feet down. Being air-breathing mammals, though, they have to come up for air every few minutes. And since hippos can neither swim nor float, they accomplish this by jumping to the surface, where they bob above the water line for a moment, then sink back to the bottom.

Weird flippin’ animal. Five bucks say they evolve into some kind of manatee-like thing in a few million years.

Lori

I did not know about the jumping business. That is freaky. As is the fact that they kill like 3,000 people a year. (By contrast there are only 100ish shark attacks per year and the vast majority of those aren’t fatal, but even Syfy isn’t making Hipponado. )

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

And 3,000 people is a lot of people. But it’s even more when you consider that hippos are not exactly known for living in highly populated areas. Like, 3,000 people a year being killed by hippos is a pretty amazingly large percentage of the number of people in a year who are in the presence of hippos. There are only about 150,000 of them. They’re semiaquatic, which means that, as mentioned, they spend most of their lives at the bottom of lakes, and “the bottom of lakes” is not really an amenable habitat for humans. So, on average, every year, one out of every fifty hippos pops out of the water just long enough to find and kill a human.

And now I have to go call SyFy and/or The Asylum to pitch my spec-script, “Sharknado 2: Hippocanes”

Lori

I know. Hippos are scary. They look like walking cartoons, but they are no joke. General rule: if you see a hippo heading toward you get back in the Rover and haul ass. Better safe than dead.

I’m still cool with hippos being a protected species, but seriously, do not mess with them.

ETA: IIRC the 3k hippo kills includes people who drown because a hippo capsizes their boat, which I gather is way more common than you’re expect.

Maniraptor

Their closest living relatives are whales and dolphins! Current thinking is that the last common ancestor was probably semiaquatic, so I guess if hippos were going to go fully aquatic they probably would’ve by now, but there’s certainly precedent…

2BRKnot2B

Swans were hunted nearly to extinction, as were Canada geese, Nene geese, etc. for their wonderfully soft, and highly insular qualities.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Yeah, the only time I ever remember someone hunting swans was in this book we read for school where the hunter deliberately reset the time on his watch to extend hunting season by an hour and shot the magical swan that was teaching a young girl to think for herself and also fly, because the men of the town didn’t like that.

Oh holy crap, it was an allegory for puberty, wasn’t it?

2BRKnot2B

Swans have been a protected tho huntable species for some time. Turmepeter swans are native to the U.S. Their English cousins are not, and considered an invasive species. hey are to be shot on sight whether one indulges in eating the flesh, or otherwise. Do know the difference, tho’, because shooting a trumpeter can get you in all kinds of trouble including jail time, and a hefty fine/tax, which may, or may not, be deductible. Still working on that one with the IRS.

Vermic

Why is the person hunting the swan

Well, you see, it was acting suspicious.

Lori

It was wearing a hoodie?

(Too soon?)

2BRKnot2B

Nope, Very appropriate. There’s that one brain cell functioning again.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

You would use birdshot to have more bird. If you used buckshot, which is bigger, all you’d have left is feathers.

EllieMurasaki

Oh okay. Thanks!

2BRKnot2B

I use #2 shot for turkey. A head shot is what you are after here. That means most of the shot will center around the head and neck, and the remainder of the bird will still be intact. Seriously, you folk shouldn’t even be commenting here with the ignorance shown.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Headshot for turkey? At what range?

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Point-blank of course. Can’t risk the turkey having a fighting chance, after all.

Where I come from, only a coward would need a gun to kill a turkey.

Lori

As we recently discussed, turkey are mean. You can’t get let a creature like that get the upper hand.

2BRKnot2B

Turkey are wily, and tasty. Has nothing to do with their ability to be mean to their hens. Besides where we come from, the hens like the Toms. They will sidle right up and take one for the team. Sort of like leftist ho’s.

Lori

What is it with you and sex? No one but you mentioned anything about how male turkeys treat female turkeys. Take your abusive fantasies to some MRA site where they’ll be welcome.

2BRKnot2B

I like sex. What is it with ho’s and sex?

2BRKnot2B

Where you come from the only turkey is likely at the Walmart superstore.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Ha ha. Stupid little asshole. Listen up, little boy. Turkeys used to wander around my neighborhood growing up. If you wanted to be rid of one, you’d just hit it with a two-by-four. Folks used to hunt back in the 40 acres of woods behind my dad’s house before it burned down last year, but the real men used a bow and arrow. Guns were for little boys hunting squirrels.

And we ran the damned Wal-Mart out of town because we didn’t want their kind fucking up the local businesses.

2BRKnot2B

Range is usually less than 10 yards. You have to be pretty adept to call them in that close, and pretty still. The slightest movement like the twitch of a finger can set them to running, and believe me, they are fast.

J_Enigma32

You’re a horrible person, shooting your family members like that.

myeck waters

You owe the turkeys of the world an apology.

2BRKnot2B

A very accurate rifle for a head shot. How often did you folks wear the dunce cap in school?.

EllieMurasaki

“Ignorant about things I don’t actually want to know about except when relevant to stories I’m writing” != “dunce”.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Oh, please don’t confuse the poor troll with nonstandard math symbols. These are descendants of the people who claimed advanced math was a tool of communists. ^_~

BaseDeltaZero

A rifle that fires #2 shot? Whaaaa…

Lori

Not as often as you did.

2BRKnot2B

Bigger shot doesn’t equate to less bird. I cannot believe someone so ignorant of firearms, and shotshells would comment. I recall the adage, “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one’s (computer keyboard) mouth and remove all doubt.” Shotguns shells have only a few different lengths,with each one holding only so many ounces of shot. The number of pellets will go down as the shot size decreases (OO buck versus #9). Don;t forget that a slug is a single shot round from a shotgun, so it can be extremely lethal at closer ranges. Even some slugs are designed to shoot only in rifled barrels making them more accurate at longer ranges, tho’ shot size versus powder load diminishes the effective range of a shotgun slug versus a rifle. Also, shot itself will have a much shorter range than slugs. However, I did knock a pheasant down once with #9 shot at about 100 yards. I believe it was a very lucky shot as at that range the shot pellet had little actual impact velocity/power. Maybe I schooled you leftist pukes a bit today?

J_Enigma32

I love that adage.

Now why don’t you go follow it, fool.

Emcee, cubed

I know I’m late to this conversation, but why wouldn’t a crossbow do? People do still use them for both hunting and target practice. If you used a description talking about modern components used to make the actual weapon (anodized machine aluminium barrel and such), you could make it obvious that it wasn’t a medieval crossbow. Just a thought.

EllieMurasaki

…I did not know crossbows were still a thing outside the SCA. Cool! Thanks!

Emcee, cubed

Certainly not widespread, but yep, still around. I googled “crossbows for sale” to get the “anodized machine aluminium barrel” bit above.

AnonaMiss

My aunt and uncle used to hunt elk with a bow and arrow because it’s more sporting. Hadn’t heard of crossbows still being in use, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I wouldn’t be surprised if crossbows might be experiencing a resurgence of interest thanks to Katniss Everdeen. :P

EllieMurasaki

Doesn’t she use a longbow?

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Eh. I’ve heard crossbows are easier to use, ironically, since the strength it takes to use a longbow is not that easy to come by.

Also, don’t forget Charlie Matheson in Revolution. :)

Lori

Crossbows require much less strength and they can have sights, like a gun, that make it much easier to hit what you’re shooting at. There are still plenty of people who use longbows though, both archery hobbyists and hunters. I don’t imagine they’re that hard to come by.

ETA: Bow hunting season is a reasonably big deal around here. I think all the people I know who go are using some kind of compound bow.

AnonaMiss

Modern bows – compound bows – don’t take much strength to draw, because they use what’s basically a pulley system to magnify draw strength.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Fair point. That said, if a disaster persists for a long time eventually the fancy bows won’t be usable, though. That point is likely a decade or more in the future though.

Lori

Yeah, I think so too but I’m disinclined to indulge his fantasies.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Especially when all he’s going to do is NO U LIE DUMASS LOL

That’s not even fun to antagonize. It’s amazing how people who think they’re right so often don’t care if they’re wrong.

2BRKnot2B

Yes, it is, isn’t it.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Protip: If you’re contradicting people on things because you’re so sure that their character in question invalidates their claims, then you’re probably not the one guilty of dismissing the facts in favor of the righteousness. I don’t have a gun*, you’d be right about that. I know many people on this blog do. What, are you going to accuse them of photoshopping a gun in the picture if they swivel 180 degrees and take a photo of their collection?

* The reason I don’t own a gun is because of my mental condition. I’m a very bad combination of major depressive episode and antisocial personality disorder. The last thing I need is a weapon which could kill me or someone else because on a bad night, it would.

2BRKnot2B

Liberal means, “leaning toward democracy.” Y’all are leftists, Marxists, socialists, communists, NAZI’s. These are the people of the left in America. They are the people we defeated in WWII, and the former Soviet Union. America will rise from the ashes of the left’s hypocrisy only after they have been shown that their was does not work, because as educated as you may be, you can’t undo generations of history that prove these systems do not work.

Lori

FAIL. Among other problems, the Nazis were on the Right. You are closer to the Nazis than we are. And yes, I know they had tSocialist in their name. Funny thing, the Nazi’s were liars (and so in Jonah Goldberg).

2BRKnot2B

Lori, you have been indoctrinated by the mental incompetents of the social justice education system. Socialism is left in this country, and freedom loving constitutional republicanism is right. Both the communists of the USSR, and the NAZI’s of WWII identified with Marxist (socialist) ideology. I was almost beginning to thing you had one working brain cell. Now you just blew it.

Lori

You are incorrect. It doesn’t matter how many times you repeat it. The Nazis were not a Left wing group. They were a Right wing group. I know that Right wing groups and websites and Jonah Goldberg have told you that they weren’t, but they lied to you. Stalin was on the Left. Hitler was on the Right. Those are facts. I accept them and don’t try to pretend that Stalin was not on the Left. You need to sack up and accept that Hitler was on the Right instead of trying to group all the bad in the world together and then push it as far away from you as you can so that you never have to do any real thinking. Too bad you’re too much of a self-righteous coward to do that.

2BRKnot2B

Again, to try to summarize this for you Constitutional republicanism versus socialism & tyranny. “Whether the tyranny be of the masses or the sole despot (Justice Josepch Story), it is still tyranny…” (paraphrased)

AnonaMiss

You seem to be alluding to the horseshoe theory of political spectrum, in which the far left and far right are nearer to each other than to the moderate versions of each. I generally agree with this model, though I think it is simplified to the point of near-uselessness.

However, your reluctance to own fascism as far right is worrisome. It implies that you think that there’s no such thing as ‘too right wing’ – that you believe that when right wing policies/governments become tyrannical, they are now automatically “left wing”. Would you agree with this assessment? If not, what would you consider ‘too far right’?

caryjamesbond

Yes-which is why Hitler immediately purged all the Marxists, leftists, social Democrats, etc. etc., why all the street fighting during the early years of the Nazi rise to power was between communist groups and Nazis and why, when Hitler invaded the USSR, local party leaders were the A number one targets. Because he loooooved Marxism.

Seriously, if you can read, “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” is a good book on all this sort of stuff. Shirer was living in the Third Reich for most of this, and he makes it VERY clear that the Nazi’s quickly purged any socialist leaning people as soon as they had power.

2BRKnot2B

Read it when I was 8 years old. What’s your point?

Lori

If you read it as an 8 year old that would explain why you clearly didn’t understand it. You should try rereading it with what adult understanding you can muster.

And no, no one believes that you were such a prodigy that you fully understood Rise and Fall of the Third Reich as an 3rd grader.

caryjamesbond

I’m sure you did, pumpkin. Because people with as…..loose and gentle a grasp on grammar, punctuation, spelling, and military theory as you do generally were capable of reading, and thoroughly digesting a long and dense tome that is often rather boring.

But aside from that- if you have the same hardback edition I do, I suggest you turn to pages 190-191, which recounts a meeting Hitler had with the CEOs of Krupp, United Steel, and I. G. Farben, in which he outlines his plan to destroy the Marxists, gaining him the support of these powerful gentlemen- and millions of marks they took up in collections. And slightly further down the page, wherein Shirer recounts how the Communists, Socialists, Catholic Trade Unionists, and Social Democrats were all viciously repressed.

Basically, presuming that you’re capable of understanding that words have meaning, you’ll understand that Communists do not typically seek the support of and donations from the most rampant capitalists in the land, nor, when they are seeking power, do they repress their fellow communists. (After they have power, is, of course, another matter.)

Basically Nazis and communists are different. Nazis are the furthest extreme of the right wing, Communists the furthest extreme of the left wing, I have no love at all for Communism- its a stupid, failed philosophy that never would or could work. But saying its the same thing as Nazism is as incorrect as saying blue is red.

http://againstjebelallawz.wordpress.com/ Enopoletus Harding

For the Nazis- Socialist, yes; Marxist, no.

AnonaMiss

Would you mind elaborating further please?

It seems to me that a definition of ‘socialism’ which included the nazis would be broad enough to be essentially meaningless.

1. Aunursa made a good point on the other thread – about liberals describing libertarians – that it is best to take what an organization says about their enemies with a heap of salt.

2. This is a blatant attempt by Mises to redefine their enemy’s label for propagandistic purposes/validation of Godwinning. Modern Western socialism is the left-wing equivalent of the ‘interventionism’ which Mises contrasts with totalitarianism. Taking left-wing (communist) totalitarianism, grouping it with right-wing (fascist) totalitarianism, and then redefining “socialism” to mean “totalitarianism” isn’t just a strawman – it’s a strawman shaped from used straw.

Which is to say, it’s full of shit.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I take anything quoted from the Mises institute with a salt mine; they’re like the Cato or Fraser Institutes: all but openly operating with a neoconservative agenda.

Aunursa was criticising those who take a leftist critique of neoliberals at face value; I am criticizing those who take a neoliberal critique of leftists at face value. The principle is the same whether it’s leftists describing neoliberals, neoliberals describing leftists, or Hutus describing Tutsis.

The articles are full of shit because they involve the strategic redefinition of words. I asked you to justify the idea that the nazis were socialists; you linked articles which defined all totalitarianism as inherently socialist because the government has seized the means of production. This is not what socialism conventionally means. By this definition, ancient Babylon was socialist; renaissance Spain was socialist; feudalism is inherently socialist.

Basing an argument that a tyrannical regime was socialist, on redefining ‘socialism’ to mean ‘tyranny’, is begging the question. And it’s below you.

Lori

Yeah, Mises isn’t exactly a reliable source on much.

Caravelle

I read Goebbels’ diaries in high school, and I remember parts from Hitler’s rise where there was infighting between the Southern (Bavaria) and Northern Nazis (with the latter being Hitler’s faction, if it wasn’t vice-versa), with the pro-worker Southern faction getting mad at the Northerners (=Hitler) cozying up to banks, and Goebbels as a Southern-sympathizing fan of Hitler trying to mediate (that was pretty hilarious: you’d have one entry saying how concerned he was about the direction Hitler was taking and that his friends had urged him to talk some sense into the man, which he was going to do the next day, and the very next entry he’d be waxing rhapsodic about the meeting and how awesome and absolutely correct Hitler was. Talk about Nicolae-style mind control powers…). I’m probably misremembering aspects of this, but my point is that I think there actually was a leftish wing to the Nazi party that justified the “Socialist”. But Hitler purged it long before the party came to power.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

It was gone for good after Hitler got rid of Strasser, yeah. Nail in the coffin was getting rid fo Roehm as well.

Lori

Yeah, the early years of what became the Nazi party were interesting. Hitler was looking for anti-government types with a willingness to use violence. Some of the folks he found were pro-labor and at least nominally socialist. Socialism was quite popular at the time and there were a lot of variations and splinter groups. Hitler wasn’t a Leftist though and by the time his creation became what we think of as The Nazis and actually gained power they were very firmly on the Right.

2BRKnot2B

Very apropos to the mind control powers exhibited by Barry Hussein over the masses of fawning psycophantasmagorical leftists here.

Lori

Acknowledging that he’s the president is hardly “fawning”.

Emcee, cubed

I bet if we took up a collection, we could get you a dictionary from Amazon. Because you really shouldn’t use words you don’t know the meanings of.

EllieMurasaki

Who needs a paper dictionary when there’s Wiktionary?

phantomreader42

This idiot is obviously using the Conservapedia version.

J_Enigma32

Awww, look. He’s still using them big words he don’t understand.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

oh my god what is it with every Libertarian true-believer thinking Nazis were raving kissing cousins to the Commies? Hitler’s biggest hate-on, besides Jews, was the Soviet Union.

2BRKnot2B

And Hitler was a socialist, too. Ever wonder why Hitler hated the Soviets? Because they were competition for his brand of socialism which was so much better than Soviet socialism/Marxism. Now we have an asshat in the WH who thinks he can shove a much better brand of collective Islamist Marxism up our asses that will be so much better than Soviet Marxism, or NAZIism. Fools, one and all.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Hitler calling himself a socialist is about as truthful as you calling yourself a patriot.

islandbrewer

Well, since this thread is already Godwinned, …

The words “Socialist” attached to “National” in the Nazi Party was more marketing ploy than anything. Socialism was extremely popular in Europe (and the US, too), and the German Nationalist Party had trouble garnering support from the new industrial labor class. Just add the word “Socialist” and boom! Votes! (Just think about political parties around the world with the words “Peoples” or “Democratic” like the “Deutsche Democratic Republic” of East Germany or the “Democratic Republic of Vietnam”.)

Hitler actually employed outsourcing to private companies to unprecedented extremes (which gave rise to BMW, Volkswagen, etc.), and made lots of concessions to industrialists in terms of abolishing regulations and standards, and funneling government subsidies to them. Let’s see, that reminds us of which political party, again?

This outsourcing of militiary functions was quickly emulated by the States under Eisenhower (who coined the term “military industrial complex”). Halliburton, KBR, and Xe (Blackwater) are more the descendants of the Nazi political system than anything else. (Not to imply that ANYONE who works for those companies are Nazis in any way, of course.)

Lori

Blackwater is now calling itself Academi. I think Xe lasted less than a year. They did the 2nd name change last summer around the time they had to basically acknowledge guilt on a laundry list of federal charges, including arms smuggling.

This has not stopped them from receiving federal contracts. Do not even get me started on that.

ETA: I stand corrected. Blackwater was Xe for about 3 years before it became Academi. It was during the Xe years that the company was sold to private investors and AFAICT no one actually knows for sure who owns it any more. That’s certainly comforting.

2BRKnot2B

You think Eisenhower started the M-I-C? Not likely, Likely Lincoln was the one who started that. I don’t care whether Hitler was a consummate puppy dog. His persona validated “tyrant.” I don’t see anything coming out of that which is good. And the little faux tyrant using Executive Orders to “progress” his agenda, and your own is apropos recognition that he is just that.

Lori

His persona validated “tyrant.”

What the hell does this even mean? It’s word salad. How did his persona validate tyrant?

islandbrewer

Who argued that he wasn’t a tyrant? Not me, he was as evil a totalitarian right winger as they come. I certainly don’t see anything coming out of Nazism that was good, but it’s certainly very telling that you seem to think that was what I was saying. What a twisted little mind you have. Please seek therapy.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

At best, we got a bit of scientific data out of the experiments they conducted and it launched some terrifying-in-implications experiments into human behavior, like the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram experiment. We wanted to prove that the Nazis really were as evil as they seemed and instead discovered that almost anyone could be compelled to perform inhuman acts if an authority figure assured them it was necessary.

islandbrewer

Well, yeah, and then there was Dr. Pozos, a physiologist at the U of M (at the time) doing research on hypothermia (of course, in Minnesota) who dug up data from Nazi experiments, too. Being meticulous note takers, the Nazis had scads of data on horrible experiments with human subjects. Now THAT was an ethical hullabaloo!

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Yep, and led to some advances in research ethics, if memory serves. Sometimes we learn best with a bad example, sad to say.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

When in doubt, just remember: The *Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is a totalitarian dictatorship.*

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Hitler wasn’t a socialist and you are a fucking idiot. Words have meanings, dumbass.

phantomreader42

He’s such a coward that waving a fluffy pillow in his general direction would reduce him to curling up in the fetal position, shitting himself and crying.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Why wouldn’t we use birdshot when taking care of an annoying tit.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Even in SYG states, inviting someone onto your property and then shooting them is murder.

And posting about how you’d like to do it will pretty much sink any attempt to claim self-defense.

And that after-the-fact warning shot you put into the wall will be used as proof that you tried to cover it up.

Guest

No, we’re not armed. We’re educated–which is why we will always own you.

antiscreed

Hey educated….ummm Guest? You will care when you are staring down your own death with a Muslim saw against your neck crying and begging for your life screaming, BUT I’M EDUCATED! And not one of us will be there too protect you. Good luck with that one moron.

Lori

Are you sure the Muslims will get him before the Reconquista is complete and the scary ‘Messicans get their shot?

In either case you clearly have a rich and full fantasy life. You should try channeling that in a more productive direction. Have you considered World of Warcraft? I bet you’d make an excellent troll.

AnonaMiss

We got de good stuff, mon.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Which just makes me think of a Robin Williams skit.

Jamaica would never make an atomic bomb. They may make an atomic bong. But I’d rather fight a war with the atomic bong, because when the atomic bomb goes off there’s devastation and radiation, but when the atomic bong goes off, there’s celebraaaaaation!

2BRKnot2B

Celebrating inebriation makes one a slave to the selfish lusts of the body. Once such a slave exists, it does not take much to enslave them for real. Your betters, for all you that think your the brightest bulbs, are currently working on ways to take all your money, all everyone’s money, and hand back to you what they think you need to barely survive, and you all are buying it like sewer rats being fed chit from the pipe gods.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

Are you enjoying paying so much for ammunition?

caryjamesbond

I’m not addicted to anything! I just can’t live without my guns, and my Glenn Beck Books, and OMG THE COMPLETE SURVIVALISTS KIT? Everything I need to survive for a year for only $3,995! Must have, baby!

Lori

Coming from the guy who keeps making sexual remarks this prudery about being a slave to the selfish lusts of the body is pretty freaking rich. You are such a huge hypocrite. Also an idiot.

Lori

If they had the good stuff they’d be happier and a lot more pleasant. I figure they must be growing their own under poor grow lights in the back of the closest next to the stinky tennis shoes and ending up with a really bad high.

Actually, a couple of these folks sound like the meth heads we have around here.

AnonaMiss

I was just quoting Troll shopkeepers on WoW…

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

It must be terrible for you to live your life in such fear.

phantomreader42

Thank you for your irrevocable admission that the conservative position is so morally and intellectually bankrupt that your only hope of promoting it is to threaten to murder random people. It’s fitting that this admission is made in a way that shows your utter incompetence and cowardice. Now kindly fuck off.

antiscreed

Hahaha murder random people. That’s a good one pussy. Good attempt at stringing words together. You will never know what it means to be protected. Instead you believe we are the enemy when in fact you have no idea who your enemy is. That’s how and why you will die. Your blindness will kill you. Not me.

phantomreader42

Yeah, I know you won’t kill me. You spend all your time jerking off to sick fantasies of murdering anyone who doesn’t worship your delusions, raping their corpses and drinking their blood, but you’re too much of a coward to actually DO anything in the real world. All you’re capable of is babbling moronic nonsense while sitting on your ass in a puddle of your own filth. You’re worthless. You don’t scare anyone with a brain. You are a living example of the complete and utter waste of human potential the the right-wing death cult brings. You’re too pathetic to even pity.

antiscreed

You really need psychiatric help little boy. along with the rest of your pussy friends here

Lori

You’re clearly really anxious about your own manhood. You should think about seeking professional help for that.

antiscreed

You bore me. STFU pig

Emcee, cubed

It’s only fair, you’ve been boring us since you got here. So why don’t you wander out of mommy’s basement and get some sun on your pasty white ass. I know dealing with actual humans instead of shadows on the internet is awfully scary for you, but you really should try reality some time. It’s good for you.

2BRKnot2B

Funny how those replying about basements, and pasty white asses, and getting out, are all people here posting in the same forum ad infinitum.

Emcee, cubed

On vacation. So yep, I can sit here all day and do this. Some of us don’t appreciate sick assholes like you coming in a shitting all over people. You and your buddies (who I’m not convinced aren’t all one person) haven’t contributed one piece of factual data or substance since you got here.

2BRKnot2B

What factual data you want, Emcee?

Lori

If you’re bored go back to whatever rock you crawled out from under. No one is keeping you here.

antiscreed

Oh but my dear chickie. It’s you that keeps me here. Lol it’s so easy to get in a child’s mind and stay.

EllieMurasaki

In what way is Lori forcing you to remain? Surely, if you’re bored, you have better things to do.

Emcee, cubed

Translation: I have no life and live in mommy’s basement because the big bad world scares me, and I don’t have any sort of life, so I have to stay here all day and get my jollies.

Lori

You think you’re in my mind? Wow, you really are a special snowflake.

J_Enigma32

Well, we all need to spend some time amongst our intellectual equals, otherwise we begin to feel outclassed…

phantomreader42

The projection is STRONG with this one. To suggest you are mentally ill would require that you HAVE a mind. You do not. Only a low-quality remixer of shitty right-wing talking points and pathetic insults. Not even the quality one would expect from an ELIZA-style chatterbot. You fail the Turing test.

Emcee, cubed

Translation: WAAAAAAH! He called me a name!!! He’s not allowed to do that!!! WAAAAAHHH!!! Only I can do that! WAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

You throw around the word “pussy” a lot for someone who’s never seen one in his life. You must be *really* insecure about your manhood.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I would prefer not to make comments like that about people’s sex lives.

It’s akin to calling him fat, which is not possible to deduce from the web posts and simply buys into social notions about a person’s worth based on flawed metrics.

Translation: Mommy told my I’m the bestest of the best, so I’m so much better than all these people who are obviously so much more informed, intelligent and are more secure about who they are than I am. NYA-NYA!!

antiscreed

Lol you’re a fuckin child. Just like the rest of you putrid morons.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Keep whining, baby.

antiscreed

Fuck you pussy boy.

Lori

What is it with you people and bringing up sex?

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Aww. Is the poor widdle baby upset?

antiscreed

LOL. Not in the least pig liberal.

Lori

What is it with you people and pigs?

Sex and pigs. Are you by chance telling us about your love life?

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

You know what, I take it back. You’re not a baby. I have a baby. Babies are capable of learning and self awareness, and they have some awareness of the world around them

antiscreed

Lol you fuckin moron. All of your idiot opinions mean nothing and there should be a law against people like you having children. Putz

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

My opinions mean so little to you that you keep coming back and facing public ridicule and having your stupidity, hatefullness and total failure at being a human being exposed just because you can’t bear the thought of an actual human being getting the last word.

…wow. This is even lower quality – significantly lower – than the usual trolls. Even Ragnar the Red usually speaks a little better than this guy.

(Only noticed because apparently, he’s returned to continue calling people by various animal/genitalia-based terms.)

2BRKnot2B

Leftards are not random people. They are admitted anti-Americans. Any Democrat falls under that rubric, and many a RINO does, as well. Vote with the Constitution, or hold your vote, otherwise, you get labeled by your own actions.

phantomreader42

alderan en lenthrinau vos sola naris nor

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Hah! Yeah, believing in the equality of all people, in freedom, in treating each other decently sure is unamerican.

Here’s a hint: you’re not a patriot. You hate america. You hate its liberties. You hate its freedoms. And most of all you hate the concept that all of mankind was created equal.

2BRKnot2B

You do not know what people think in their hearts. Saying so proves you are ignorant.

Fanraeth

And yet you claim to know what religion Obama believes in secretly, i.e. what he thinks in his heart. So you’ve just called yourself ignorant. Congratulations on admitting the truth.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

If it wasn’t for the fact that your kind of thinking has infected a goodish chunk of the US population and its politicians I would just laugh in your fucking face and tell you to get a life.

As it is, I am now also calling you an active danger to your nation’s collective intelligence.

2BRKnot2B

Anyone who sits in front of a TV listening to the lies of Islamist-in-chief Barry Hussein has to have little intelligence from the start. And if you voted for him, then WOW! that’s all I can say. I’m stupefied,

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I think you’ve amply proven that you’re in fantasyland.

AnonaMiss

Please, tell us how you know that Obama is an Islamist.

Remember, an Islamist is a person who wants to install Islamic religious law as civil law – it doesn’t just mean Muslim. (I don’t believe the president is a Muslim – I just want to make it clear that even if he were, that wouldn’t be sufficient to make him an Islamist.) Please point to any evidence you have that he wants any tenet of Islam to be the law of the land. Even one verifiable quote would be of interest to me.

2BRKnot2B

I think you’ve amply proven you don’t give a chit about America being a great country.

Lori

This is the first true thing you’ve said here—you replied to yourself and you have indeed amply proven that you do not care about America being a big country.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

what is it with you Constitution-fetishizers who all but worship open violence in the form of panting after “SHTF” and yet you’re weirdly prudish about using real swear words?

Surely your stomach can handle it, considering you have no problem countenancing the violence inherent in your concept of what “SHTF” will mean.

Lori

His delicacy about using real swear words doesn’t exactly fit with all his nasty sex talk either. And of course there’s some irony in the fact that Little Mr Too Good To Swear showed up here to defend Potty-mouth Kessler.

Intellectual coherence is not this guy’s specialty.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

It must be hard for you. All your life, you thought “Well, no matter how bad things get, at least I’m a straight white man, and that means I’m better than women and minorities” But now, whoos, you’ve got to face up to what a loser you are. A scared little child of a man who can only feel big by bulling people on the internet.

You know, we’re all laughing at you. We’re not frightened by your big talk. You’re a dinosaur. You’re pathetic. Ridiculous even. And you can mock and call us names and insult us, and use sexist, racist, abelist language as you rage impotently. And you can masturbate to your sick fantasies about the murder spree you want to go on, killing all the liberals and taking “your” country back for other racist, inbred dumb-as-fuck hatemongers like yourself.

Whoa! Flagged. Call his office. Call the mayor’s office. Hound them to the ends of the Earth…in public forums. No private info.

Guest

Freedom of speech baby! Don’t tread on me. Lol

AnonaMiss

There is a difference between ‘legal’ and ‘appropriate.’

Guest

This was both legal and appropriate. Guys like this need to be shut down fast. They are a danger to society. They inspire other nutjobs. Also, he’s chief of police. He is there to protect all citizens equally despite their beliefs.

2BRKnot2B

When the shtf there will be no police anymore, and his militia, and the many like it, will clean up those who desecrate our flag, our nation, and our Constitution.

Lori

You too should consider role playing games as an outlet for your rich and full fantasy life. Either that or just stick to regular p(rn for your wanking needs.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

oh look

another survivalist oh my god why can you all not just go to like, somewhere there’s a civil war and practice your “SHTF” fantasy skills?

J_Enigma32

When the shit hits the fan, it’ll be because someone got sick of you and threw you into it, toy soldier.

caryjamesbond

Really? When the asteroid/Zombies/Total collapse of all society/end of the world as we know it comes, your priority si gonna be FLAG DESECRATION?

That’s a priority riiiiight there. Flag desecration.

Fanraeth

I bet you masturbate to the idea of shooting all the people you don’t like when your mythical apocalypse happens.

2BRKnot2B

And whose to say he doesn’t?

Guest

Also, that is his state issued cell phone number.

phantomreader42

Wait, the guy babbling about overthrowing the government has a state-issued cell phone? I guess that’s not really that surprising, fascists tend to be incredibly hypocritical.

2BRKnot2B

Biggest fascist are the left who have exalted one of their own from Kenya to the throne of power in the U.S. And, if he is a Natural Born American citizen that can mean only one thing, Frank Marshall Davis, devout =, self-avowed communist is his papa.

Well, I hit a nerve, because I finally got called a racist. That proves I’ve won the argument in your delusional world, right? is exactly what the leftists on another forum say of those right wingers who call them names.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

The president isn’t an american! And if he is, his father is a particularly scary black man! And if not, he still hates america! And if not, he’s still muslim! And if not, he’s still black!

Take it somewhere where someone might give a damn about your insane racist gibberish.

2BRKnot2B

Huh! Never said anything about his skin color. Seems u brought that up, you, “crazy ass cracker.” Still not sure if they mean ‘crazy ass’ cracker, or crazy ‘ass cracker.’ No difference is all racist talk by the majority of the black community about white folk. Remember being called Honky to my face by the likes of ’em in the 1970’s, and that, without provocation. You had to know what their parents were saying within the sanctity of the home, because “no whites allowed” was what we were told.

BaseDeltaZero

No, no, of course not, you merely assumed he was actually Kenyan based on… well, nothing. And then whined about ‘reverse racism’ as though it actually mattered. When someone can kill you for being white, with explicit societal approval, then you can complain about being called ‘honky’. Until then, lol privilege problems.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Oh my gosh, being called “Honky” is totally the same as the loaded history of being called Ni… actually, no it isn’t. Your ancestors weren’t enslaved and then subjected to decades of discrminatory social and economic treatment to the point where even now the legal system has the de facto effect of treating your kind adversely.

J_Enigma32

Awww, look. He said “fascist”. It’s so adorable when you use big words you don’t understand, sunshine.

2BRKnot2B

Understand it just fine, Buttercup.

J_Enigma32

Then define it, sweetie. And explain how it’s the same thing as a communist.

And while we’re at it, explain why Hawai’i suddenly became part of Kenya, since you don’t want to appear just as stupid about your geography as you do your polisci (not that you can help it, of course).

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

You’ll probably get some load of crap about how the inbound customs documentation mysteriously disappeared from the microfilm right around the time Dunham hit the USA allegedly from a flight from Kenya.

AnonaMiss

Oh, well if it’s a public phone number, call away!

No sarcasm intended. Personal/private phones are off limits, but if you’re a public servant and you have a public phone, you’d better be prepared to get some phone calls from the public.

2BRKnot2B

Wow! Chief Kessler really has some pantywaist leftists in a tizzy. I don’t think you realize how many gun totin’ right wing, Christian believin’ God fearin’ people in the hinterlands believe exactly as Chief Kessler does. If internecine war comes to America, this next time it’ll be right against left. There will be no state against state, tho’ there may be a small amount of that. It’ll be every man for himself, and if you aren’t involved in politics, don’t expect that someone you know, or even you yourself, may not get hurt. Temper the left before the shtf, or what this Chief said may have Obama’s chickens coming home to roost, as they are decimated by right. Will the military necessarily intervene? No doubt, which is why if something happens it happens after Barry Soetoro is out of office, and back in his native Kenya. And, remember this you lefty pukes, just because someone is a birther doesn’t mean that what we are relating is wrong, just that you don;t care about our constitution, and will do anything to undermine it.

EllieMurasaki

So how exactly is someone who was born in Hawaii to a mother who was born in Kansas not a natural-born citizen twice over?

2BRKnot2B

His Father was not an American citizen. What about that is so hard for the left to comprehend? A NBC is a person born of two citizens who were born in this country, or naturalized into it. That is why Marco Rubio would not qualify to be president, and why Barry Hussein Obama, or Soetoro, or Marshal Davis, or whoever this guy really is cannot be legit presidential material. Until he releases all his records, which he will not, because they will prove either 1) he is not a NBC, or 2) he lied on college transcripts, within books he wrote, etc.–but not sure why, with all the lies he spews daily, that would be a concern for him, except that some of those lies could be used as a means to incarcerate him for fraud.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Where did you get that definition for NBC?

(please say the Constitution, please say the Constitution)

Amendment 14, Section 1

Section 1. All persons BORN or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, ARE CITIZENS of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

There are a few requirements, but you would have to provide evidence that Obama’s mother failed to meet them. And, you know, prove Hawaii wasn’t US territory in August of 1961.

2BRKnot2B

Yes, citizenship, but not “NATURAL BORN CITIZENSHIP.” Come on people, this isn’t brain surgery, and easily proven. Now, if Barry Soetoro would come clean by presenting all his credentials, then perhaps I would believe he has some credibility, but I do not think anyone here cares what his citizenship status is, as long as he won the erection. (Yes, I meant to say erection. He was erected, not elected, because no one who doesn’t meet the eligibility requirements can be considered a viable candidate.).

EllieMurasaki

He DID present all his credentials. They’re just not what you want them to be.

2BRKnot2B

He presented false credentials. That is fraud, deceit, and if you can’t see it, then you are blinder than a bat at a Halloween Party.

caryjamesbond

Do you have proof they’re false? Because, basically, when someone presents seemingly acceptable credentials, like Obama did, the burden of proof is on YOU to demonstrate their illegitimacy.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Did you get a load of the guy who totally 100% trufax has Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate, but won’t release it until he gets Obama’s footprint?

Nice goalpost-moving there. And I totally bet he wants Obama’s footprint to shrink it down and Photoshop it onto the “Kenyan” birth certificate.

Lori

And of course the newspaper announcement of his birth was totally for true faked because it appeared in the paper on the wrong day. Ann Dunham having apparently one-upped Eleanor Shaw Iselin by setting her Manchurian Candidate plan in motion within days of her son’s birth. Impressive.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I regret that I have but one “Like” for that beautiful snark. :P

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

You know, this kind of use of irrelevant detail and blowing them up to omg vital importance status seems to me a lot like the tax protestor claim that since your name is printed in capital letters on a tax form it’s not your real name and you don’t have to pay taxes.

Winter

I’m sure our brilliant friend here can explain the difference between “citizen of the United States at birth” and “Natural Born Citizen.” I suppose he’ll whip up some form of “unnatural” birth that just happens to include anyone born through IVF.

We had somebody in town who insisted that he was legally free of income tax for life because of something to do with the gold braid on American flags in courtrooms and something else to do with lawyers calling themselves “Esquire.” He started a business and took other people’s money by promising to make them legally free of income tax for life too.

Lori

That flag bullshit is actually really common with the fringe Right tax evaders and sovereign citizen types. Because stupid, that’s why.

They… they realize that the government can use any flag (that isn’t already taken, of course) they damn well please to represent themselves, and if the guys who write the flag code say the gold fringe is appropriate, it is, in fact, appropriate?

Lori

They do not. Or at least they claim that they don’t. Same with the thing about lawyers using Esq supposedly violating something or other* which supposedly renders court proceedings involving lawyers using Esq moot. That’s why I said that the other name for a sovereign citizen is inmate.

*I want to say that it has something to do with it violating the rules against hereditary nobility, but I wouldn’t put money on that. I can’t keep track of the stupid.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

The screwy thing is that not only does that ring a bell, but I think that might have been my step-dad’s step-dad. :p

(Or maybe that’s just a thing people do.)

Lori

It’s a thing people do. That doesn’t mean that you & Jenny Islander aren’t referring to the same person, but if you are it’s just a nifty, if somewhat creepy, coincidence. There are quite a number of people who make that claim.

Lori

President Obama has presented all the credentials required. He is a natural born citizen. He was born in the state of Hawaii to a US citizen. All the rest is just your fever dream. A black man is POTUS. Deal.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

And not even for much longer, meaning that if he’s going to destroy the country, he’s sure as hell waiting to the last minute and taking his sweet ass time getting the system to collapse. Last I knew, he was still having trouble getting even simple measures passed. And let’s not say anything about the recent bill to curtail the NSA’s power getting killed in the House… that’s an awful lot of Republicans who seem to think spying on citizens is the way things have to be.

Lori

If Obama is working to get the system to collapse he’s doing it by giving in to the GOP. The wingnuts in the House are pretty much determining what gets done in this country right now. The answer being nothing other than the war on women.

Jenny Islander

And the working poor, and the children of the poor, and the elderly poor, and anybody else whose situation disproves the comfortable notion that in America, good = rich = good.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Since you do not count the credentials he presented in order to get himself on the ballot in all 50 states, which were notarized by the legal authorities, nor do you count the birth certificate which has been verified by numerous experts and has not been disputed by anyone even remotely credible, what exactly would you count as “presenting all his credentials”?

Is it just that “any credential which does not sup[port my insane conspiracy bullshit is definitionally invalid”? Or is there some objective standard of proof you would accept that, if presented, would cause you to say “Ah. I was mistaken. This proves that the president is legitimate”? I’m curious what it could be, and ot have a record of it for when you inevitably move the goal posts.

(No sane, honest human being can possibly believe that if there was any truth at all to your claims, Willard Mittens Romney would not have used high energy beams of money to have Obama disqualified before the election. Given how hard the GOP cheated to try to steal the election, it is absolutely impossible that there is even the slightest hint of truth to your insane birther theories.)

Lori

Queen of the Birthers Orly Taitz admitted flat out that there was no evidence of Obama’s eligibility for the presidency that she would believe because she knows that he’s not. I suspect our troll is much the same.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

That’s kind of sad, actually, that there are people who are so determined to believe something they have openly admitted they will reject all evidence to the contrary.

2BRKnot2B

The website BC is completely bogus, I think odds it was real were given to be in the trillions to one. What else is he hiding in those transcripts form college he frefuses to release? Will it show he had help with his student loans, thus all that pap about helping students with loans was bullspit? Could it be the help he received was based on his criteria that he was a foreign registered student? Was the reason he bowed to the King of Saud because he was one of those who helped pay his tuition? Who was the Pok-ee–stahn boyfriend he had in college at Columbia, and what was the purpose for his travels to Pok-eee-stahn at the time? Was he part of the CIA, or part of a terrorist network who was working to undermine the U.S.? Is he still part of that network seeking to divide us at the levels we are currently? Imagine if these elites could foment an internicine warfare in the U.S. with the 9faux) president calling in foreign (UN) troops to quell the insurrection? Do you really want to be part of being so duped?

Lori

If someone tried to create a caricature of the ignorant conspiracy nut Right Winger that person would create you. Are you real or just a bot designed to test us?

2BRKnot2B

I may be as much a bot as Barry Hussein.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

This is the classic example of dumping a crapload of assertions in the hopes that if you throw enough mud some of it will stick and a non-response means you get the powerup and win the game.

Have you or anyone simply just asked for the goddamn transcripts from his university?

And as for the king of Saud? The only people throwing a shitfit over it are people like you who would probably hump the rug in the Oval Office if you were a dog, you fetishize the entire apparatus of the US government that much as a holy of holies above all ordinary mortals.

And the rest of your crap is just that: speculative crap.

Emcee, cubed

Actually, it isn’t about fetishizing the entire apparatus of the US government. It’s about hating the black guy in the White House. Numerous other presidents have ALSO greeted other heads of state by bowing. This is nothing new. But somehow it only becomes an issue when it is the black guy doing it.

Forget bowing — remember the time George W. Bush held hands with that Saudi prince? And then they kissed on the lips?

You might call it “diplomacy” or “cultural courtesy” and nothing to get worked up over. But I have a different theory. Is it possible — just barely possible — that George W. Bush was a SECRET ISLAMIC GAY SAUDI FIFTH COLUMN SEX SLAVE? Look, I’m just asking questions here. But I think if you look deep in your gut (and your gut is *always* right!), you’ll find the answer.

2BRKnot2B

I call it what it is. GW Bush, and his family, are all part of the same conspiracy to rule the world that you all seem to think is just the tits. Compassionate Conservatism means socialism light.

Lori

Is socialism light some kind of lamp that takes more than one person to turn on? Or did you mean socialism lite?

In any case it’s good that you’re at least honest enough to admit that you’re against compassion.

Lori

And W. held hands with Crown Prince Abdullah. According to the Right no one was allowed to say boo about it because that would be mean and homophobic. Because the Right cares so much about not being mean and homophobic.

ETA: My reaction to Bush and the prince was, in order:

1. The US in general and the Bush family in particular are way too chummy with the House of Saud.

2. If a Democrat did that Fox News would never stop screeching about it.

3. Huh, Bush must be a tiny bit less homophobic than I thought. Or more likely, able to compartmentalize really well. Impressive in a warped way.

2BRKnot2B

I said plenty about it, and regret that the right can come up with no better choices than people like W. But I cringe because the left can come up with no one better than Barry. Whatever happened to real Americans like Jack Kennedy, people who loved their country, respected its principles.

dpolicar

What happened to Jack Kennedy is an American citizen decided he would let the ammo box trump the ballot box.

2BRKnot2B

No, actually its about adherence to the rule of law, which those on the left fail to comprehend as it doesn’t fit their “end justifies the means” garbage.

Emcee, cubed

Sorry, but no. There is no law that says you can’t greet a head of state in the proper way. Bowing, as a form of greeting, does NOT in any way, mean to pledge fealty to. What he did was nothing more than a handshake in another culture. And, as has been said many times, many other presidents have done the same thing, including many Republican presidents, such as Nixon and Reagan. Get over it.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

Thing is, there is enough hinky stuff in Stanley Ann Durham’s past, that a history with the CIA is possible, even likely. And it’s even possible that Obama went to Pakistan AS A FAVOR to the Agency(student’s weren’t getting permission to go to Pakistan at the time).

Of course, a sensible person reads that, and feels that access to the halls of power IS TOO NARROW, and we need to do something to expand that. A sensible person does not read that and go “OMG TRAITOR SOCIALIST ISLAMIST”

2BRKnot2B

Stanley Ann Dunham was a whore who worked posing nude for Frank Marshall Davis, and may have bore his child while married to another. I doubt there was any CIA connection, tho’ I don’t doubt that of Barry Hussein given his bona fides; Pok-ee-stahny travel when Americans were warned against it, or forbidden to do it. And, by the way, what passport did Barry use to travel to Po-ee-stahn when Americans were forbidden, except for CIA who were arming Afghani rebels?.

AnonaMiss

What is the significance of refusing to spell Pakistan?

The sexual activities of any woman who is not your wife or romantic partner are none of your business. With the exception of her location at the time of birth, Ms. Dunham’s are also irrelevant to the president’s citizenship & presidency.

You have failed to provide any citation for your claim that natural born citizenship requires both parents to be citizens. Every law concerning citizenship, including the definitions and requirements thereof, can be found in writing. Outsourcing the justification of your position to a rambling conspiracy theorist is effectively an admission that you have no textual justification for your claim.

Vermic

What is the significance of refusing to spell Pakistan?

President Obama takes the effort to pronounce “Pakistan” correctly and this fact makes 2BRKnot2B very angry. Very angry indeed.

Lori

Nothing says, “My argument has no merit whatsoever” like a good Gish Gallop.

2BRKnot2B

Prove me wrong.

Lori

You brought it up, the burden of proof is on you.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Could he be an alien from the planet remulax? I mean, can you PROVE he isn’t?

Look, just come out and say the word you really want to say. We can hear it in your crazywhack anyway.

And frankly, even if it were somehow possible that an illegitimate foreign national had seized the presidency under false pretenses, in order ot spread an america-destroying policy of giving the insurance industry a massive handjob to effect a frew minor benefits to people who need healthcare, continuing the bush inanity in our foreign policy, and being the best friend big business has ever had, while not even bothering to lift a finger against ever-increasing christian dominionism, all in the name of spreading soclaism, fascism, islamicism, and atheism, even if somehow day was night and the sky was made out of fish and any of that was possible or even logically coherent, I’d still rather be a dupe than be on the same side as a fool like you

BaseDeltaZero

Nonono, you see, the reason no one will release his college transcripts is because they secretly don’t exist. He was actually created in a secret Skull and Bones laboratory beneath Harvard by the UN, in league with the Illuminati and Al-Qaeda. The so called ‘transcripts’ are actually the protocols to activate the FEMA internment camps. The reason no one will release them is that they prove he is actually only 25 years old, (becuas he’s a robot) and therefore ineligible to be president.

Note: “Necessary and Sufficient Conditions. A given person is a natural born Citizen of the United States if and only if:

1. The person was born in the United States,

2. Both parents of the person were Citizens of the United States when that person was born, and

3. The person has been a Citizen of the United States, since birth.”

Barry does not meet requirement 1 because 1) his BC.CoLB has not been properly identified as anything other than fraudulent. 2) His grandmother who has never left Kenya, said she witnessed his birth, thus he had to have been born in Kenya, making him either a citizen of Kenya, or a citizen of the British Empire.

And #2 because as we know, his father was a Kenyan/British subject/citizen, and thus could not have been am American citizen. If Barry’s paternity is through Frank Marshall Davis, then I would agree he is an American citizen except that he has dual nationality if born in Kenya, thus, still not eligible based on the restriction of NBC in the Constitution.

Since Barry has not been a citizen of the U.S. since birth, having received an Indonesian citizenship upon adpoption by Lolo Soetoro, unless he repatriated, he is still a citizen of Indonesia, a dul, ot rtri-citizen of America, Indonesia, and Kenya, thus he is not eligible to be president.

Hope that explains it enough so you can comprehend. I know it takes more than a few billion brain cells to process this, but I think you might actually have the capability.

EllieMurasaki

That’s neither United States v. Wong Kim Ark nor Perkins v. Elg, both of which said that being born on US soil (and Obama was born in Hawaii, which has been a state longer than Obama’s been alive) is enough to make one a “natural-born citizen”. Try again.

2BRKnot2B

And they got Dred Scott right, too, correct? Besides, who said he was born in Hawaii? I am assuming he was not given the fake BC, and the fact his grandmother in Kenya, who has never left Kenya, said she witnessed his birth. Did he learn to lie from her? You calling Barry grandma (you know, the one who didn’t cross the street to avoid black men) a liar?

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Until it was reversed, it was the law of the land, however distasteful that may have been. So if you want “Barry Soetero’s” citizenship revoked, sue through a court.

EllieMurasaki

I believe that’s been tried already. I also believe they got laughed at, because, y’know, born in Hawaii to a parent born in Kansas.

EllieMurasaki

Wait, what?

Dred Scott was overturned. Dred Scott is not present-day US law. To the best of my knowledge, Wong Kim Ark and Perkins ARE. So Wong Kim Ark and Perkins are relevant to this discussion and Dred Scott is not. The decisions don’t have to be right (whatever the fuck that means) to be legal.

2BRKnot2B

But, Dred Scot was for some time. At any time these others could be overturned, as well. That’s the point. We have people making decisions about our life who have no real stake in the outcome. Yet, we kowtow to them religiously when they make a bogus decision? Why did Thoreau even pen “Civil Disobedience” if people today are so enamored with this idea(l) of civility that they think they possess. I’ve got news for all of you, if the shtf, God forbid, you all would have a hard time surviving in your urban paradises as food shortages, and the like occurred, as breakdown of the transportation system became a reality, as people started starving en masse, you’d stoop to stealing, murdering, anything you had to do to stay alive. Your civility is only a shtf moment away.

dpolicar

This isn’t news. Yes, civilization is fragile. That’s one of the reasons we work to support it.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Can you just go and watch Jericho or Revolution instead of repeatedly crowing about your omgawesome mad “SHTF” skillz?

Lori

A. couple things:

-Civil disobedience doesn’t just mean breaking the law because you don’t like it and expecting your personal opinion to keep you out of trouble. It means breaking an unjust law and accepting the consequences, up to and including going to jail, to call attention to the fact that the law is unjust in order to get it changed via the political process. Civil disobedience is an act of courage and conviction. It’s not the cowardly, delusional vigilantism that you advocate.

-You have no clue where we live. Plenty of us are not in cities. Plenty of us grow our own food. More important, plenty of us have communities that can offer support and mutual aid in an emergency. That tends to get a better result than your belligerent, dog-eat-dog, he-man bullshit.

If the shtf you’re going to die alone. If illness or accident doesn’t get you first, you’ll be shot by another belligerent asshole who came to steal your stuff and was just a tiny bit quicker on the draw that day than you were. And later that asshole is going to die alone because eventually even the biggest doomsday stash runs out, no one is going to be willing to help him and no one can outdraw everyone indefinitely.

Vermic

Well, as soon as John Greschak gets his proposed constitutional amendment passed, making his personal definition of NBC the law of the land (and also it will have to be retroactive to include Obama), you just let us know. We’ll be here. Till then, there’s no reason to give the slightest fuck about what John Greschak thinks about anything.

Lori

Ah yes. The Right Wing’s favorite way to read the Constitution—the special definition of words. This same sort of Constitutional brilliance gave us the sovereign citizen tax evaders, which is why another name for sovereign citizen is inmate.

EllieMurasaki

To be fair, the Supreme Court distinguishes between ‘citizen’ and ‘natural-born citizen’.

The latter doesn’t mean what birthers want it to mean, but the distinction’s there.

Lori

Oh yes, natural born citizen is an actual thing with actual meaning. It just doesn’t have the special meaning that Right Wingers have been trying to create since Obama was elected. It’s worth noting that this special meaning did not seem to exist when John “Not Born in the USA” McCain was running for President.

http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

The very quotation you’re thinking of when you refer to his grandmother is the very one which invalidates what you’re thinking of.

MCRAE: Could I ask her about his actual birthplace? I would like to see his birthplace when I come to Kenya in December. Was she present when he was born in Kenya?

OGOMBE: Yes. She says, yes, she was, she was present when Obama was born. MCRAE: When I come in December. I would like to come by the place, the hospital, where he was born. Could you tell me where he was born? Was he born in Mombasa?

OGOMBE: No, Obama was not born in Mombasa. He was born in America.

MCRAE: Whereabouts was he born? I thought he was born in Kenya.

OGOMBE: No, he was born in America, not in Mombasa.

MCRAE: Do you know where he was born? I thought he was born in Kenya. I was going to go by and see where he was born.

OGOMBE: Hawaii. Hawaii. Sir, she says he was born in Hawaii. In the state of Hawaii, where his father was also learning, there. The state of Hawaii.

It’s funny that the wingers are so insistant that we believe an elderly black women in a 3rd world country when she’s supposedly saying what they want to hear, but they ignore her when she’s not and they ignore nearly all other black people about basically everything else.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

HA HA.

Did you even read this?

It says, roughly [Quote from US law which doesn’t mention parentage] “THerefore I conclude that both parents must be citizens” [Another quote from US law which doesn’t mention parentage].

It’s the most transparently dishonest thing I’ver seen since… Well, since you.

EllieMurasaki

Citation needed on the point that his parents both needed to be US citizens for him to be a natural-born citizen. Citation also needed on the point that his being born in the US is not enough to be a natural-born citizen.

Cite from United States v. Wong Kim Ark and Perkins v. Elg by preference. (He’s not lying, dipshit, you are.)

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

What’s so hard to comprehend about the fact that there is nothing in law that says both your parents have to be citizens. A US Citizen is a person who was a citizen at the US at the time of their birth. The definition is given in the constitution and does not say one word about parentage. You are either very stupid or you re very dedicated to spreading this lie.

Lori

We know how many of you there are. We also know how old you are. You’re a dying breed. No amount of guns will allow you to fight off Father Time.

2BRKnot2B

No need to fight Father Time He eventually comes for all.

Lori

That was my point. The bigots are dying out. The world is moving on without you and it will be a better place when it has less of your irrational hatred in it.

2BRKnot2B

Why must, because I am averse to leftwing ideology, be considered a bigot? My country has been taken over byuradicals seeking to turn me into the lovely little communist you seem to have become. Why would I allow anyone to “force,” or “coerce” me, whether through re-education, or name calling, to conform to your false ideology?

Lori

Being averse to Leftwing ideology doesn’t make you a bigot. It makes you Rightwing. Being a racist and a misogynist and labeling people communist when they’re not are the things that make you a bigot.

Your obsession with people supposedly forcing and coercing you clearly comes from your desire to dominant others to make up for your own short-comings. You should work on that and leave other people alone.

2BRKnot2B

I seek to dominate no one. What I seek is a constitutional republican form of governance which seem to be the opposite of what the majority in this forum would like to see.

Lori

As has been explained to you, a constitutional republican form of governance can be quite a lot of things, many of which you probably wouldn’t like. The term constitutional republic is not magic.

Emcee, cubed

And, in fact, is what we have right now, so what exactly he’s trying to do, I don’t know. Change us from a constitutional republic to a constitutional republic? That seems…odd.

BaseDeltaZero

Change us to a constitution republic that *doesn’t let the icky minority people be in charge*, duh.

2BRKnot2B

We have not had a constitutional republic for a very long time. 1913 the income tax was passed. 1860 a war was declared upon our southern neighbors who had not harmed us, and just wished to be left alone to their own devices. In essence, that war cost countless in blood & treasure, and to what purpose? It didn’t prove right or wrong just that might makes right. Income tax, by the way, was used to grow progressive government. 1916 the 17th amendment allowed that federal senators could pass mandates back to the states allowing that they could not be unseated by the state congresses to whom they were beholden, thus allowing the growth off the state government at the behest (rule/force) of the federal government. See, everything about Republican governance ended when we decided that we had to allow that all be taken care of cradle to grave. No one can guarantee that, nor pay for the effect of what it brings to fruition.

EllieMurasaki

Oh for fuck’s sake not another one who thinks the Slaveholders’ Rebellion was justified.

Emcee, cubed

See, you have a very strange idea of what a “constitutional republic” is, exactly. See, those Amendments you talk about? They are part of the Constitution. You know, whether you like it or not. If we didn’t follow them? THEN, we wouldn’t be a constitutional republic any more. What you are actually saying is that you DON’T want to follow the Constitution, you want to do whatever it is YOU personally want to do, whether the Constitution says it or not. So once again you prove you are a liar and and idiot.

Mark Z.

We have not had a constitutional republic for a very long time. 1913 the income tax was passed.

…by amending the constitution, according to the procedure specified IN the constitution, which required the consent of a body of elected representatives. Sounds like a constitutional republic to me.

Dr. Rocketscience

First, the American Civil War started in 1861. Lead up to the war could easily be traced back decades, and South Carolina seceded on 20 December, 1861. But it was 3 weeks before any other state joined them, and nearly 8 weeks until the CSA was formed. And that, of course was 2 months before the shooting really started. So, for all intents and purposes, the Civil War began in 1861.

Second, and speaking of shooting, the Union didn’t declare war. The first battle of the War, at Ft Sumter, South Carolina, was initiated by the Confederates. In an obvious stalling tactic, the Union Commander of the fort sent a counteroffer of surrender for after his supplies were exhausted (which would have happened in a few days), but the Beauregard didn’t want to wait.

So, to recap 150 year old history, some Southern states, rather than work out their differences within the existing political process, chose instead to take their ball and go home. Then, they again decided not to work toward a political/diplomatic solution. They didn’t hold steady and make the Union fire the first shot. They lacked even the patience to take Sumter without firing.

Yet, in your mind, “war was declared upon our southern neighbors who had not harmed us”. Are you willfully ignorant, or as noted, a stupid motherfucker?

Also, as for “just wished to be left alone to their own devices”, that’s romantic, revisionist bullshit. The Southern states would have happily stayed in the Union, had their positions carried the day. Yes, they were likely to lose the political fights, but y’know what, if your ideas are losing in the public forum, you need to get better ideas.

Vermic

If they’re all as deft with a firearm as their spokesman Chief Kessler, it’s going to be a very short and very hilarious war.

Fanraeth

Sounds like a rejected Andy Griffith Show plot. But at least Barney only managed to shoot himself in the foot.

William Dhalgren

Are you raping a child right now? I only ask because you seem like the type.

EllieMurasaki

Rape jokes are not funny.

Lori

Sadly, that’s not so much a joke as a reference to Chris Simcox, former leader of the Minuteman “border patrol”. Like our current trolls, they puffed themselves up claiming to be Real True ‘Mericans who were going to save their country from the brown horde. They were actually never anything but a place for violent, racist losers to get their freak on and ended up degenerating into outright murder.

Simcox is currently in jail, nonbondable, awaiting trial on multiple charges of child molestation.

2BRKnot2B

One out of how many, yet you lump all together? I was never a Minuteman, but will defend to my dying breath their ability to defend their country outside the auspices of the U.S. government, and for you to say ignorant things, convicting a person prior to his even being tried. Far as I know, “innocent until proven guilty” should still exist. Not saying it does in our judgmental society with it’s leftist LameMainStreamMedia gaggling about everyone arrested being guilty as sin, especially if they hail from the right, or a gang.

Lori

No one actually said that you were a Minuteman. The Minutemen did not have the right to “defend their country outside the auspices of the U.S. government.” Even if they did have the right, that’s not what they were doing. They never defended this country. What they did was run around in the desert acting like assholes and then some of them committed a murder (for which they have been convicted).

Now a former leader of the group is in jail on child molestation charges. That’s what I said about him, and that’s true. It’s also true that he’s being held without the possibility of bond. That doesn’t mean that he’s guilty, and I didn’t in any way say that it does. It does mean that the evidence against him has been deemed strong and that he’s considered a flight risk.

At any rate, it’s pretty bullshit for you to be lecturing me about rule of law issues while defending vigilante action. You’re a hypocrite You want legal protections for yourself and others like you while being free to mete out your warped version of “justice” as you see fit. If the families of Simcox’s alleged victims bought into the Minuteman mindset Chris Simcox would already be dead. I don’t imagine he grasps the irony of that any better than you do.

2BRKnot2B

You, young lady, are very ignorant of American history. You should get & read, some of Allan W. Eckert’s historical reference works/books. They are quite telling about how our students have been misled by current teachers, who have to tow the socialist policy line in order to rremain in their jobs. Eckert is a renowned American historian who was a professor at an Ohio college.

Lori

Allan W. Eckert is fairly well known, but not exactly renowned as an historian. He blends fact and fiction to suit his own views. His books don’t prove anything. They tell you a great deal about what Allan W Eckert believes, but they are not a good source for factual, historical knowledge. Eckert does research, but then he goes so far beyond it that his work simply can’t be treated as nonfiction. That fact that Eckert believes that he knows his subjects well enough to just make up conversations and thoughts and then claim them as historical is incredibly arrogant.

The fact that you either don’t know this, or chose to ignore it says a great deal about you.

2BRKnot2B

Funny, because he gleans his stories from factual texts which are in the college at which he was a professor. Did he embellish some things? Possibly. Was the history correct for the most part, indubitably. It came directly from those who lived it.

Lori

It is not “possible” that he embellished, it’s a fact. He did not “glean” his stories. He made large parts of them up. Indubitably does not mean what you apparently think it means.

I also find it funny that you keep bringing up the fact that he’s a college professor as if that proves that he’s correct when the Right is always railing on about how college professors are a bunch of liars.

Eckert is a college professor. That by itself does not prove that he’s a good historian. At the same time, the fact that his books are highly dubious doesn’t absolutely prove that he’s a bad professor. However, any student in his classes needs to maintain a skeptical attitude and take to heart only the things that are backed up by the historical record, not Eckert’s imaginings.

2BRKnot2B

Professors aren’t all liars. They are, for the most part, leftists. There is a difference. When ideology trumps education, when the outcome is to produce someone who thinks they know it all, and therefore has nothign more to learn, when old theories proven false are taught as the best whipped cream on earth, then there is a problem. I have known a few professors who are right wing, and they tell me they have a hard time in the work world due to their ideals (constitutional republicanism) because so many professors are so far left that they are ineducable due to their belief system.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

It’s cute how you think that “ideology trumps education” describes liberals and isn’t basically the definition of The Grand Old “Women’s Bodies Have Ways Of Shutting That Down; Climate Change is a Hoax; Trickle-Down Economics Work; We’ll Be Greeted As Liberators; Birth Control Pills Leave Tiny Little Baby Skeletons Embedded In Your Uterus” Party.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Professors aren’t all liars. They are, for the most part, leftists.

Ha! That is news to me!

I’m in the sciences and I can tell you most profs I know are basically apolitical. Then again scientific inquiry tends to lend itself to a mindset that favors openly inquiring about how and why what we know of nature has come to exist.

To that extent, I think science profs would default to being more like Dems, if only because Repubs are so obviously anti-science.

But hey, keep riding that hobby horse if it suits you.

Lori

When ideology trumps education, when the outcome is to produce someone who thinks they know it all

This perfectly describes Prof. Eckert’s work and your response to it.

I have known a few professors who are right wing, and they tell me they have a hard time in the work world due to their ideals (constitutional republicanism) because so many professors are so far left that they are ineducable due to their belief system.

So your professor acquaintances are as hypocritical as you are. They are standing on their ideals, other people are ineducable. Convenient, that.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

The really fun part is when the hypocritical right-wing profs get tenure and then argue that a good bout of high unemployment is just what the uppity masses need.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

“Outside the auspices of the US government”? You’re a bunch of stupid, out of shape, inbred rednecks with guns, not Knight Rider.

BaseDeltaZero

I’m pretty sure that, even in the days when militias were still a big official thing, they could (supposedly) only act when called upon by the governor, or directly attacked. And ‘people moving in’ does not count as being attacked, even if they are brown.

In any event, even if he’d actually been on the front lines of the battle against the communazi hordes, raping children has precisely jack all to do with defending America.

Also, the fact that militias *once* were an accepted part of the American political landscape does not mean they are or should be now. You can have ‘the well regulated-militia clause means nothing, ‘shall not be infringed’ is the only relevant portion’ or ‘militias are totally in the constitution, we *have* to have them, guys!’. You can’t have both. They contradict each other.

(The Constitution itself does say Congress shall have power to provide for the calling forth of the militia, etc. It does not say it *must*, and it certainly does not say that John. Q. Racist has to be put in charge of one!)

AnonaMiss

In the USPS thread, someone was arguing that ‘shall have the power to’ is 18th century legalese functionally equivalent to ‘must’.

Lori

The stupid, it burns.

AnonaMiss

Well it was someone arguing for the maintenance of the USPS.

None of the regulars jumped in and contradicted that assertion, presumably because it would have helped EH’s side of the argument. If someone could clarify which is the case, that would be great.

AnonaMiss

(Well because it would have helped EH or because, like me, they honestly didn’t know.)

Lori

I think the argument is, or should have been, that “shall have the power to” means that the government has the power and no one else does. Hence UPS & Fed Ex not being able to do regular mail delivery. The wording gives the government a monopoly on (a certain kind of) mail delivery. Strictly speaking that doesn’t mean that the government has to do it, just that no one else can. That has the effect of making it mandatory for the government to do it, at least as long as people agree that it needs to be done. That’s a logical conclusion though, and not at all the same thing as saying that ‘shall have the power to’ is 18th century legalese for “must”.

phantomreader42

Moldy, rotting word salad with shitty dressing. Hasa diga eebowai.

Lori

Wow, Obama still has some pantywaist rightists in a tizzy.

J_Enigma32

If your hero is any indication, when/if internecine war comes to the United States, it’ll be you fools verses your own hands.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

I will concede that it will be right against left if your fantasy has its way.

But keep in mind two things:

1. Black people are legally permitted to own firearms if they don’t have a criminal record, and in some cases, even if they do. 2. Leftists of any skin color – some of them actually do know how to use guns.

Do not expect it to be a curbstomp.

Lori

Also, we’re smarter than they are, on average. They don’t think that counts, but it does.

Rhubarbarian82

I can also say that I’ve never shot myself in the friggin’ hand. So, you know, point left.

2BRKnot2B

You’re all, also, a might delusional.

Lori

You’re

Thank you for making my point.

2BRKnot2B

What point? Never, ever, made a faux pas, as the only right person trying to answer all your bullspit?

Lori

I make typos all the time. Your comments here don’t lead me to give you the benefit of the doubt and in any case.

In any case, it was funny that you made an obvious error in a post where you were claiming that I’m delusional for thinking that a lot of people on the Right aren’t all that smart.

2BRKnot2B

Well, then, Lori, lyfao.

AnonaMiss

(you missed ‘mite’)

Lori

Yeah. I was focused on the typo that gets all the press. (Well, along with its vs it’s.)

2BRKnot2B

Exactly why they call it warfare. Killing would necessarily occur, Better to separate amicably, than to resort to such violence, but that would require either some give up (sell) what they have and move where communism, NAZIism, fascism, and socialism are accepted –China, North Korea, Vietnam, most islamic countries with their Sharia law, even some European countries lean toward social democracy–than continue living where it is averse to the Constitution,

caryjamesbond

I don’t think you realize how many gun totin’ right wing, Christian believin’ God fearin’ people in the hinterlands believe exactly as Chief Kessler does.

You know whats cute? You probably think the key phrase in that sentence is “god fearin'” or possibly “gun totin'”.

It’s not. The key word is “hinterlands.” Spread out. Isolated. Difficulty to communicate, difficult to organize- REALLY easy to spot. See, if you militia types had any sense, you’d all move to Boston, or Philly, or Pittsburgh. An old city with lots of twisty streets and back alleys, where you can’t move tanks or shoot artillery.

THERE you could mount a determined resistance, Stalingrad style. You could force the Jackbooted Thugs(tm) to come to you in the subway tunnels and high rises. They couldn’t bomb you without killing thousands of their own libtard people- something even the nastiest regimes are hesitant to do.

Instead, should your silly little uprising ever happen- you’d all run to the woods. Where the air force would know that any group of humans was rebels. Where you can be burned out. Where you’re REALLY REALLY easy to see, and separate out from the libtard commie facist loyalists. Where the tanks can come, and the artillery can saturate.

Christ almighty, asshole. The Army and Marine handbooks for Counterinsurgency warfare are easily available online. Study your tactics. And learn about supply lines- you’ll shoot through that ammo hoard might quick. (Ironically, any actual, serious insurgency would have to cut a deal with North Korea, China, the Russians, or some other massive power that doesn’t like the government very much.)

Oh, wait. Reading. The rural militia’s kryptonite!

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Even if the manuals weren’t available there’s enough actual asymmetrical warfare history analyses out there: everything from the Yugoslavs to Umkhonto we Sizwe have probably been picked over for what worked and what didn’t.

But these folks are too busy fantasizing to do any real research.

Jenny Islander

Hey, Rowdy et al., are y’all still passing around the one about how the stickers on the backs of metal highway signs are secret directions to the concentration camps into which the Evil Libruls will put the God God-Fearing Murkans? I always get a chuckle out of that one because where I live you can literally drive from one end of the road to the other in less than half a day while obeying all traffic laws–and to go anywhere else requires either an overnight boat ride or a plane ticket. And yet the little stickers were there last time I looked.

Oh, and have your buddies figured out yet that in overcast conditions or at twilight, all helicopters will appear to be black?

Passing around scary stories is sure easier than training, innit?

(And has anybody ever seen a militia member past the age at which they are also playing school sports who looked as though they could get through ordinary boot camp?)

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I also belong to a group of pudgy middle-aged dabblers in arts that require more dedication for mastery than most of us will ever find in ourselves. We also gather apart from ordinary, humdrum folks (or so we like to think) in order to swap stories about glorious times that were nothing like we pretend them to have been, and we like to BS about how awesome it would be if everything went to pot and we had to save the world.

But in the SCA, we know we’re playacting. Quit taking yourselves so darn seriously and have a little harmless fun once in a while!

And has anybody ever seen a militia member past the age at which they are also playing school sports who looked as though they could get through ordinary boot camp?

Sadly, yes, quite a few. Right Wing militias are horribly stupid, but that’s not because they’re actual children. The mental age of many of them never got beyond junior high and many of them functionally have little more than a 6th grade education, but they’re physically and legally adults. (ETA: I don’t want to perpetuate an inaccurate stereotype that makes militias easy to dismiss. They’re not all ill-educated crackers with no teeth who don’t bath regularly. Plenty of them are educated, at least after a fashion, and can more or less pass for normal. However, it’s true that the rank & file militia member is not exactly the pinnacle of human achievement.)

A good subset of them have actual combat experience. The Right threw a hissy fit when the FBI pointed out that militias have been recruiting hard among vets of Bush’s unnecessary war and Bush’s fuck-up turned Obama’s folly (aka Iraq & Afghanistan), but it’s still true.

With few exceptions the vets who join militias were not exactly the cream of the crop when they were in the service. To hear them talk they were of course all SEALs and D-boys and Rangers and Force Recon. The reality is that they were mostly grunts with a history of discipline problems. Many of them have killed in battle. Some of them join militias precisely because they liked killing and they weren’t able to get another job that sanctions it (see the bit about their poor service records).

That doesn’t change CJB’s point. Some militia members know very well how to kill in battle, but most of them are nothing but wannabes. Possibly more to the point, even the ones with combat experience know something about being in a battle but not how to plan one, let alone plan a war. Their tactical knowledge is very limited and their strategic knowledge is nonexistent.

2BRKnot2B

Actually, you may wish to read the book about the fight in Fallujah written by SSgt. David Bellavia called, “House to House,” or perhaps “The Fightiing 69th,” by Sean Flynn.

caryjamesbond

BAHAHAHA Fallujah. BAHAHAHA Popular accounts designed to sell copies. What can you tell me about fire-and-maneuver? Do you know how to operate with no control of the air? Fallujah was a pretty little fight compared to REAL insurgency work. You’ll want to study the VietCong, and Stalingrad.

Honestly, pumpkin- you ain’t got the guts. All you militia types think it’ll be the Civil War part two, with women in Crinoline dresses you can tip your hat too. It’s not. Real insurgencies run on fear. They replace the governmental systems- create their own judges, cops, welfare systems- OH yeah. Welfare. You’re gonna be handing out a LOT of free stuff- how else are you going to get the huddled masses on your side?

But once you’ve set up that judge, you need people to be going to see him, and not the state’s judge. So you kill anyone that goes to the courthouse. You chop the arms off of children that the enemy vaccinates. You shut down schools by killing children. You create fear of you and hate of the government that can’t protect them.

Mao. Ho Chi Minh. Robespierre, Cromwell- you know what the difference is between these guys and your precious Marsh Robert?

Lee lost. Badly. Mao won.

BaseDeltaZero

But once you’ve set up that judge, you need people to be going to see him, and not the state’s judge. So you kill anyone that goes to the courthouse. You chop the arms off of children that the enemy vaccinates. You shut down schools by killing children. You create fear of you and hate of the government that can’t protect them.

These are right-wing radicals. You say that as if they aren’t already salivating at the thought.

2BRKnot2B

Here’s the easy part. The inner city areas aren’t spread out, are easily accessible, and given the anti-gun propensity of some, should war occur, could become horrible killing zones. As to difficulty of communication, or spread out, you need to get out of the office cubicle. There are not too many states where there is not a pretty good population density. It is not easy to pick out right & left unless one has access to the voter rolls, and even those, many people on the right would probably be looking for a lot of dead folk on the left. As to calling me an asshole, well, just goes to show the mentality of those calling this chief out for his spouting of obscenity.

Lori

There are not too many states where there is not a pretty good population density.

For a Real True ‘Murica Lovin’ Patriot you seem to have missed a whole lot of the country. Most of the middle has very low population density overall. Oddly enough, that’s where the militias tend to hang out. For example, they’re not trying to take over Denver. They’re trying to create North Colorado out of 10 counties that have very low population and no cities.

The 3 lowest population density states are Montana, Wyoming & Alaska. Idaho has the 7th lowest population density. Notice anything about that list?

Right wing groups are obviously not found exclusively in low population density areas (Ohio is 11th, Indiana is 16th, Michigan is 17th), but when the talk turns to building the Right Wing fortress all eyes turn to the West where ya’ll might as well just put up a big old neon sign that says “No one here but us rebels”, complete with giant bullseye.

caryjamesbond

Yeah? How you gonna GET to the inner city to do alllll this killing you’re so hard on about? Drive in a convoy across those (government made, btw) highways? How you gonna ORGANIZE, genius? How are you gonna contact each other? Cell phones? Easy to tap. Radio? EASIER to tap AND jam. Postal service? Government. Encrypted short band communications? Hope you know a lot about Crytography. QUick- whats the difference between a 512 bit encryption and a 4072 bit encryption? Which would be better for what situation? Do you understand that even if the government can’t understand what you’re saying, they can still derive information from WHERE you’re saying it?

Incidentally- they’ve got guns in the innercities as well. And militia of their own- of course, they’re called “Gangs” but six of one… And most of those gangs have people with actual killing experience, not just running-around-in-the-woods-in-camo experience.

AND they know the territory- the ratholes, the ambush spots. They know the people, they already have low tech warning systems in place- what you never watched “The Wire”?

IE- worst possible place for a bunch of fat white boys to be trying to fight a war. Hell, the government may just let you in, Block off all the roads that don’t lead right to the heart of the West side, or Harlem, or the Inner City, and let you and M13 shoot it out. Let two problems sort each other

BaseDeltaZero

Admittedly, systems of lookouts and runners and whatnot as typically used by criminal consortium work quite well when dealing with police, perhaps not so well against someone who shoots anything they see.

caryjamesbond

Even better! As the War Nerd has so often pointed out- wars today are as much a matter of media perception as they are about actual battles. Man, some amateur footage of cute little black kids shouting “honkies comin! Honkies comin!” right before being gunned down by some fat white prick in camo and a humvee? Yeah, good luck getting any foreign support. Even the North Koreans wouldn’t sell you weapons after that.

2BRKnot2B

I seriously doubt gangs are gonna be interested in a war between two factions whom are so diverse. Their likely aim will be to be there to pick up the pieces when it’s all over. See, therein lies the rub. The Soviets here (DemocRATick Party) think they got it all figured out. Personally, I’ll be hunkered down somewhere. I’m not all that concerned about taking y’all out. However, I won;t allow you, without a fight, to take me out.

caryjamesbond

…..so basically, you’re not willing to fight in this race war/civil war/whatever that you think is imminent.

Yeah, you know what? Alllllll your militia buddies feel the same. Which is why your great american rebellion against the forces of Islamic socialist Kenyan nazi’s who have illegally taken over your government and oppressed you and destroyed your nation will be- posting snotty things on the blogs of people you disagree with. I mean- this isn’t even Nancy Pelosi’s blog or the blog of someone with power. This is the blog of a guy currently working all night every night to help his family make ends meet.

tl;dr- lololol wussy boy won’t fight to save his country lololol

caryjamesbond

I seriously doubt gangs are gonna be interested in a war between two factions whom are so diverse.

Hey, dipshit- . The inner city areas aren’t spread out, are easily accessible, and given the anti-gun propensity of some, should war occur, could become horrible killing zones.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure when you-no, wait I’m sorry- when the people with the guts to actually fight for what they believe in try to turn the inner city into “horrible killing zones” I’m pretty sure the gangs will suddenly find a interest in this war of yours.

As to calling me an asshole, well, just goes to show the mentality of those calling this chief out for his spouting of obscenity.

Actually, I’ve got no problem with his language. Fuck is one of the oldest and most useful words in the english language. I’ve got a problem with his racism, his stupidity, his inability to handle a gun properly, and his general lack of fitness to hold public office.

Also, his stupidity in publicly announcing plans to wipe out the government. Loose lips sink ships and all that. Come the revolution, I pray he’s on the other side from me.

Lori

No one will have to “take you out”. They can just leave you in your little hidey hole to die of starvation or illness or old age. As long as you’re not running around causing trouble for other people no one will give a crap about you and where you are because you aren’t, and won’t be, important enough to bother with.

Maniraptor

I’m sorry, I just can’t get over the beautiful irony of a racist asserting that the inner city is the place he’s *least* likely to get shot.

robbiecee

I THINK ALL “ONE MAN” LAW ENFORCEMENT TEAMS SHOULD BE DISMANTLED. SOMEWHERE THEY FORGET THEIR PURPOSE AND CONFUSE THEMSELVES WITH GOD!

UpHereAlone

The problem is that this guy would just hire more people like himself. I’m pretty sure that’s every police department in Texas btw. lol

UpHereAlone

Few things make me happier than how much Obama’s very existence upsets and angers the right wing nuts. Payback for those awful Bush years! I hope you wake up every morning with the veins popping out the sides of your head. I hope your animosity grows and grows until you completely unravel so we can all have a justified laugh in your faces.

2BRKnot2B

Actually, I wake up barely thinking at all about your ass hat faux, not constitutionally eligible (Natural Born Citizen), Islamist-in-chief. How desperate does a party have to be to get qualified (which is debatable) individuals if they have to resort to someone who doesn’t even meet the single most important requirement for the job?

UpHereAlone

Coo Coo for Coco Puffs. Get an education.

2BRKnot2B

Got one, dude. Then had to re-educate because the education I got was all bullspit.

J_Enigma32

Clearly it didn’t work, because the only word better to describe what you believe than “bullspit” is “bullshit.”

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

You mean “natural born citizen as defined in the constitution and all US law” and “christian”.

DO you understand that if there was even the tiniest speck of truth to your allegations, he would have been stopped before primary season even began? Have you forgotten, you stupid motherfucker, that the federal government which at the time was being run by republican messiah George The Lesser actually checks these things out?

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

But it was those meany Liberals who somehow prevented the truth from being heard.

Seriously, Fox News would have been blasting that shit 24/7 if there was even a shred of proof that Obama had faked his documentation that demonstrated his eligibility to become President, secret CIA background or not.

Fanraeth

So John McCain should never have run either, right? He was born in Panama. It is a solid, verifiable fact that he was born outside of the United States, yet oddly you birther whackadoodles never seem to remember that.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Hm. Well yes, but if they get this worked up about a center-right corporatist like Obama, if we ever got an actual liberal as president, they’d make life mighty inconvenient with all their impotent raging.

AnonaMiss

Depends if the liberal was white or not.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Considering how bad they got about Clinton, who was about as “liberal” as Obama, I suspect that if, for example, Joe Biden or Elizabeth Warren were to become President (both are a bit to the left of Obama, I think) the Repubs would have a collective explosive hatefest.

Lori

The day we have a woman president the Right will go totally batshit. I’m really tired of their crap and yet, in a way, I’m looking forward to it because they’re going to be so very unhappy. We will see levels of anxious manhood on display that will be truly epic.

EllieMurasaki

Elizabeth Warren 2016!

Lori

I’d prefer that she stay in the Senate for a while longer. At this point I think she’s got more opportunity to be effective there than she would as president. Also, in the modern era people retire from Politics after being POTUS and we need her to have a longer career than that.

EllieMurasaki

Good point. Um. Hillary Clinton 2016?

Lori

I have my issues with Hillary running. Mainly that I’m not thrilled with the idea of our 5 most recent presidents including a father-son combo and a husband-wife combo. The Oval Office is not supposed to be a family business.

I’d also really prefer that our first female president not be someone with such close connections to a previous office holder. I want someone who can say she rose to the job through her own efforts and her own connections, not because she’s Famous Man’s wife or Famous Man’s daughter. I think Hillary could have done that if she’d chosen to, but the fact is that she didn’t.

If she gets the nom I’ll vote for her. I think she’d be good at the job. In a perfect world though I’d rather have someone else as our first female president. I think Warren would be terrific in that capacity and I could wait a few more years for that.

EllieMurasaki

Yeah, I’m hesitant about Clinton too. But I do kinda want a female President now, or as soon to now as can be managed, and I’m having trouble thinking of female US politicians with the sort of name recognition that’d be necessary–Nancy Pelosi?

UpHereAlone

The only problem with Pelosi is that they REALLY hate her. She has been pretty divisive with the Republicans. She also, I hate to say this, isn’t bright enough to be a good President. She ran congress around in circles when they had it all right after ’08 election and squandered the opportunity. I am ALL FOR Elizabeth Warren being President. She’s the only honest politician out there.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

They hate Pelosi LESS than Clinton, but Pelosi doesn’t have the widespread base support like Clinton.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Also, Pelosi’s the better part of a decade older than Clinton. Even leaving aside my disinclination to let anyone over sixty be president, we’ve all seen how much the presidency ages people. Pelosi will be 77 in 2017.

AnonaMiss

I like Clinton, but I hope she doesn’t run. I get the impression that presidential-campaign-level being-in-the-spotlight 24/7 makes her miserable. She seems so much happier in a situation where she can get things done. So I’m hoping for Biden, because he is so joyful when he lays the smack down, and he brooks no bullshit.

Also, I have to admit… I’m worried about the future of our country if we have to deal with a solid wall of Republican obstruction for much longer. Democratic obstruction is never as bad because they at least want to do things – Republicans can get exactly what they want just by gumming up the works indefinitely.

UpHereAlone

Yessss

Carstonio

As much as I want to see a woman president, I dread the ugliness that will emerge when that happens. We’re already seeing a preview with Nina Pillard, who would be labeled a centrist by any rational legislature. We’ve had five years of the Southern Strategy directed at the first African-American president. The first woman in the job will face an equally hateful reception. In various euphemistic ways, she’ll be labeled a slut, a man-hater, a hormone-driven crybaby and a butch lesbian, often at the same time. I’ll feel even more ashamed for my country than I do now.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

Seriously, is there some way we can avoid having our first female president be yet another rich white septigenarian heterosexual christian?

(I’m not saying we should make it a point to double-up or anything, but the “old and rich” thing kinda bugs me.)

EllieMurasaki

Good point. Kyrsten Sinema 2016!

Lori

It’s tough for someone who isn’t rich to get elected president, male or female. Barring significant campaign finance reform (not gonna happen any time soon), I suspect you’re going to have to suck that one up.

The age thing, IDK. I think it’s sexist to worry more about the age of a female president than a male one (Rush Limbaugh, I’m looking at you, you asshat), and I have mixed feelings about how old is too old to be president. Reagan was clearly too old and raises the issue of what we would do if we had another POTUS who developed Alzheimer’s or some other form of dementia while in office. I think the combination of McCain’s age and health issues made him too old for the job, especially after he picked the Great Alaskan Moron as his running mate. Beyond that, IDK. AFAIK Hillary is in good health and not showing any signs of early onset dementia so I don’t really think that her age should disqualify her.

http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

I’m fine with a president who became rich over the course of their political career.

And I’m not any more worried about the age of a female president than a male one. We need to stop electing old people, even if they’re women. If elected in 2016, Hillary Clinton would be older at the time of inauguration than any president save Ronald Regan, and she’d be younger than Regan by only a few months.

Lori

I have concerns about the idea of someone getting rich by being a politician. That way lies badness. Not the same kind of badness as being born with the proverbial silver spoon, but bad things nonetheless.

You have a good point about Hillary’s age. I always forget that she’s that old. And of course the election is still 3 years away.

I really do hope she decides not to run. I was actually disappointed that she didn’t stay at State longer because I think she did well in that job. I think there are many things she could do now that would be a better idea than running for president.

AnonaMiss

Could be. I’m a young’un, so I don’t have any memory of the Clinton years that wasn’t filtered through my parents’ lens. Their problems with Clinton are ones I still consider completely reasonable, e.g. sex with employee, lying about it under oath. Granted, they weren’t big fans even before the Lewinsky allegations, but their objection at that time was that they thought he was slimy/untrustworthy… and yeah, I kind of have to give them that.

http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

Oh, believe me, they were apoplectic that some bum from Arkansas beat out their heir to Ronald Reagan. To some Republicans in the 1990s, the fact that a Democrat managed to win after the USSR fell was an affront and an offence. And they went after Clinton for anything, and it was like Eliot Spitzer only before Eliot Spitzer.

http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

He didn’t help, with the “I smoked, but didn’t inhale” crap.

Living close to a military base, his non-service was a BIG DEAL, until it came time to talk about Bush’s service, well then we don’t need to talk about THAT.

Biden was never governor. Senator since age thirty. I forget what his track record was like, but you’re probably right, because Delaware. ‘Hardcore corporate shill’ is basically what you get around here.

Mark Kawate

This is a very biased article. No major media or news organization sources their material like Alex Jones. It is just the voice, friends, once you get past that…. there are a lot ridiculous things going on.