Steorn's perpetual motion claims are extraordinary. They've raised millions from investors, and 2007 is the year that this will all change the world or Steorn will fall apart. Which will it be? Find out here first.

Wednesday, July 11, 2007

After attending the London Demo on Steorn's behalf as the forum skeptic, Dr. Mike Rosing has posted his opinion of the situation here on Steorn's forums. I've included the entire text below:

I will write up a full report and post it on my own web site in a few days. I wrote something on the plane which is good but not complete. I suspect one could write abook about all the experiences we've had here.

My opinion - and it really is only my opinion - is that Sean lives in a world of delusion. His greatest strength is the ability of convince people of things, and it is also his greatest weakness. I am certain that Sean has seen a "start - stop" device operating. That it never existed outside his mind doesn't matter.

There are a lot of questions that remain unanswered, but let's look at a few simple ones.

Why would Steorn send a skeptical forum rep to see their core technology if Steorn did not really believe it? As others have pointed out, if this were a hoax or scam, something would have worked. From my direct observations of the people, there is true belief here.

Why would Sean claim that 5 bearings were broken and he sent someone to Eindhoven to get more? Because he saw it happen. Like the story about the famous mathematician who talked to people nobody else could see (the movie was "A Beautiful Mind") I think Sean has really seen things work. The rest of us never will.

Sean said at one point that the jury validation was the most important thing to Steorn. At this point I think the jury is also in his mind. He probably talks to them often. He did say they have not seen any devices. How could he have a demo, have the jury be the most important thing to the company, and not have had any jury member see anything? Because nothing exists.

As I said, there are a great many details and questions to answer, and probably we'll never get answers to the more interesting ones. It was an honor and a privledge to have met everyone here and at Kinetica and I will do my best to get all the parts back to everyone who loaned me stuff and made it possible for me to help out.

We'll be hearing more from Dr. Mike soon with a full report, which he started working on while flying back to the states. Right after Dr. Mike posted this, a new unknown forum member named "Marissa" appeared and said this:

Marissa: Well, the jury is real, but that's the only refutable comment Mike. Everything else could be just as you've explained it. Sigh.

pcstru4: How do you know?

crank: There's an obvious reason how she knows.

Marissa: It's not as obvious as you think Crank. But we work in the free energy world. We hear things. There is a jury - and no, we aren't on it.

Who is Marissa? An employee of Steorn? Hopefully we'll learn a lot more from Dr. Mike's report.

I’d like to apologise for dithering before, by the way. As I mentioned at the time I was always worried that they’d show me something that couldn’t be dismissed out of hand as non-OU (a good magic trick, basically). I thought that I may have added to their credibility in the eyes of ‘believers’ if I visited and didn’t produce a wholly negative report.

It seems that I over estimated their competence and I could have maybe saved some people some waiting around if I had gone. Sorry again!

Wow, that was a bomb shell. I thought Mike would restrict himself to comments on the (non-existent) technology.

Sean reminds me more of David Icke than John Nash. An ordinary chap who goes off the rails. In Icke's case, claims of humanoid reptilians are clearly mad - common sense tells you that, whereas claims to have seen over unity are equally mad, but much harder to spot since most people don't understand the physics. The physicists who do understand can only conclude that the concept is impossible, and therefore anyone who claims to have seen it must be deluded.

In other ways Steorn is very similar to other tech companies that are convinced they have a winning idea. The difference is that the impossibility of implementation is usually only discovered in practice, whereas OU is impossible from the start, based on theory.

Fraud, self deception, negligence, incompetence, some unholy combination of those... I've often been unable to determine for a particular situation which it was.

Of course, the next time Sean opens his mouth in public where someone can ask him relevant questions, the questions may be better than they were at Kinetica (and more audible) and we may learn more if he's put into a spot where it isn't as easy for him to weasel out.

The Tilley electric car that needs no recharging story (see a previous post for details or I can post it again if anyone wants) was definitely and unequivocally a scam. Tilley had a prior conviction in another state and he was a transparent, obvious liar and much less credible than Sean. Still, investors believed him.

Sean, probably by coincidence, did a strikingly accurate job of following Tilley's script-- right down to a bearing failure (!) which crippled the planned big venue, famous-people-invited demonstration. In that case also, Tilley had immediate options he could have used to avoid the disaster had the invention been real. People offered him De Lorean bearing replacements within a few hours-- all he had to do was repair his car and run it around the track while the venue was still available. He made some half-assed excuses for not doing it-- just like Sean did for not producing a working device (or showing a video or even bringing a non-working device). And of course, Tilley's car was never shown to the public, the scientists or the press-- like "Orbo". During Tilley's initial "demonstration", invited engineers were not allowed screwdrivers and there was heavy security to make sure. Sean used other means to make sure Dr. Mike didn't see anything-- he just kept Mike away from Steorn's offices and away from any device.

Eventually, Tilley was charged with securities fraud and arrested. His toys were confiscated and independently tested by -a reputable university. Nothing of his was anywhere near overunity. In fact, his foxy looking car was powered *only* by ordinary lead acid batteries! The court case failed because the investors were too embarassed to testify. Tilley fled to another state. I bet he'll do another scam-- this wasn't his first. I doubt Steorn's investors will be as shy as Tilley's but who knows?

The similatities between Tilley's performance and Steorn's suggests that Steorn involves an element of fraud. Maybe some of the participants are frauds and others are duped?

For more information, I suggest awaiting Dr. Mike's detailed report, hopefully accompanied by some photos and videos.

@15-india-street:

I don't think Dr. Mike visits here regularly so the best way to ask him questions is still on Steorn's forum. He's getting mobbed over there so it may be a while before he has time to reply.

@BC

I am not a physicist but I understand thermodynamics theory in general and I agree OU is impossible-- the obvious consequence of OU is that by feeding the output back to the input, one could generate infinite energy! The main reason I've been watching this is that I'm interested in scams and how easily and thoroughly even intelligent, educated and experienced people get bamboozled. Still, the twist to this one, is that I was hoping that Steorn had discovered a new energy source-- not OU but from a previously unknown phenomenon, something analogous in some way to nuclear energy but completely different. I knew this was exceedingly unlikely but it added a little spice to the story.

It will be still be interesting to see what Steorn does in the near future and how they go about it. Lincoln (?) had it right-- you can't fool all the people all of the time.

"Marissa: Well, the jury is real, but that's the only refutable comment Mike. Everything else could be just as you've explained it. Sigh."

Hmm, Marissa seems to have a problem with reading comprehension. At no place in Dr. Mike's statement is there any claim by Dr. Mike that the jury does not exist. In fact, Dr. Mike specifically mentions that he believes Sean is in contact with the Jury quite regularly. Dr. Mike's only material comment regarding the jury is that the jury has yet to see any device, a condition that most of us find indicative of the lack of any real device at all. Therefore, Marissa's position that Dr. Mike is wrong in asserting there is no jury is without foundation of any kind.

Taking away Marissa's factually incorrect assertion, we are left of Marissa's statement that Marissa cannot refute any part of Dr. Mike's statement, if there is any relevance to that in any case.

My purpose is only to make clear that, to my reading, Dr. Mike has not made any claim that the jury does not exist.

My apologies. Perhaps it is I who has the problem with reading comprehension. The specific Dr. Mike passage in question is the following:

"At this point I think the jury is also in his mind. He probably talks to them often. He did say they have not seen any devices. How could he have a demo, have the jury be the most important thing to the company, and not have had any jury member see anything? Because nothing exists."

I took this to mean that he thought of the jury often; that is, it was a matter of great concern to Sean. Re-reading the passage, it can clearly be interpreted as Dr. Mike saying that Sean has imagined the jury entirely and his interactions with them occur only in Sean's mind. This would also be consistent with the "Beautiful Mind" reference.

I apologize if I am wrong regarding Dr. Mike's position and your post.

Dr. Mike, can you resolve this? Did you mean that, in your opinion, no jury exists and that Sean has created a pure illusion in his own mind?

I suspect that the next step in the Steorn drama will be the character assassination of Dr. Mike by the True Believers. You can already see it starting in the Steorn forums, e.g. Dr. Mike broke his NDA, Dr. Mike has no business diagnosing mental illness, etc. Eventually Dr. Mike will be sitting at the Devil's right hand, and the Steorn TBs will feel completely justified in ignoring everything in his report.

Incidentally, for those who wonder why scientists and engineers don't bother debunking OU claims, just watch what happens to Dr. Mike. The True Believers will dig for any bit of dirt they can find to discredit him. They can't fight the message so they'll attack the messenger. Fortunately he's back in the U.S., so that should shield him from any legal harassment by Steorn.

I am not sure Dr. Mike did the right thing now. It might be, that Sean is deluded, crazy, seeing/hearing things etc - maybe he's perfectly normal. But these are VERY delicate and intimate subjects, and should not be discussed in public. I'm sure that authorities and medical professionals will make proper conclusions later privately.

What comes to Steorn as a company and claims they have made, they must of course be evaluated in public forums, but not Sean's mental health. That's clearly out of line.

Dr. Mike could have just told us what they had spoken, what was done, how was the tech and evidence, etc. and let other people to make their own conclusions.

Wow. I figured Sean was a little sketchy but it appears the rabbit hole is deeper than I thought! Steorn starts to make sense if you add a delusional CEO. Just the number of different origin stories for Orbo that have surfaced are one indicator of problems. At last count I believe there have been four - anti-fraud device, wind power and two others whose details I forget.

What really blows my mind is the forum believers jumping to Sean's defence and trying to shoot the messenger. This type of cult-like behavior is scary to see in action!

"we are left of Marissa's statement that Marissa cannot refute any part of Dr. Mike's statement, if there is any relevance to that in any case."

No relevance whatsoever! Just stating that no one (outside of Steorn) can dispute anything else that Dr Mike said. Sad situation really.

Ball's in Steorn's court (where I believe it has been since the begining!!!)

By the way, I'm not saying that I agree with Dr Mike by saying that his opinion can't be refuted. There are so many entertaining theories, I have a hard time subscribing to any one. Let's just say that I'm eagerly awaiting what will happen in the next few days/weeks. Wouldn't it be great if they really have it!?!

Could you imagine the amount of stress it would take to make you flip your gourd like Sean? I mean, bankruptcy happens even to the best of us, and nobody takes it well.

Well, bankruptcy is one thing.. but now imagine how much worse it would be to have compounded it by getting yourself ensnared in a perpetual motion machine nightmare. That quip about "the car wreck continues.." how true.

(Actually to be rigorously correct Steorn never actually declared bankruptcy, but just before "the discovery" they were down to only 94 euros on top of 193,000 euros in debt, according to Wikipedia).

So...it looks like the plan is perfect.1-Too incompetent to run an honest business. So lets make up a story.2-Hunt gullible investors, get them to invest as much as possible and hide things at any cost. Make it up as you go.3-Run away with the money giving any excuse.4-Plan B : If caught red handed, pretend being deluded, having some mental problem.5-Run away with the money anyway....

Just to let everyone know - Frank Grimer's a man of his word. He sent me a cheque today to settle the £200 bet we had over Steorn. It is settled to both of our satisfaction that they don't have an OU device.

I wouldn't feel happy keeping it so I think I'm going to donate it to charity, most likely WaterAid, who seem appropriate given Steorns 'African water pumps' claim.

If, at some point in the future, Steorn release a CoE violating device to the public I'll add another 200 of my own.

Yep, I hear ya. Only thing I disagree on is the whole wonderful if they have it type statement, not that I'm going after you specifically on that. It's just that after so many scams and delusions regarding technology in cases where it is abosultely clear that the claim is outrageous and essentially impossible, I no longer even ponder whether it would be great if someone had a PPM or if another person could talk to the dead, etc. To me it's like saying, "wouldn't it be great if I could snap my fingers and make piles of cash appear." It has zero meaning and is pointless to consider. I think it also eventually leads down the path of blind faith and delusion.

Meanwhile, as I said before, sorry for being critical of your post; I read in haste and was stupid. Cheers.

Au Contraire, this is precisely the forum to discuss what is wrong with Steorn and/or the people involved. Why is it bad to say that Sean is deluded? If he's crackers, he's crackers, lets establish the fact and move on.

We are only helping people save their life savings from a crackpot's delusions, vs causing the crackpot some personal embarrassment for the mess he has created for himself. This is the situation that Sean made, and is personally responsible for, so why should he be protected from it?

More comments from Dr. Mike below (sorry no time to clean them up-- I'm just following the string during work breaks):

drmike CommentTime7 minutes ago permalink genesis:@DrMike

"So if i got it correct....Your statement is that Steorn doesn't have anything at all including the technology they claim....?????????"

Correct. The "core technology" is a total misunderstanding of reality.

====================

drmike CommentTime2 minutes ago permalink ottox:"Maybe drmike checked out the bearings and found they were not broken?"

No corpse was shown. If the demo was real, some parts of it would be there.

======================And on the topic of what Sean is doing these days:

CommentAuthorSteornSkeptic CommentTime7 minutes ago permalink Not sure if anyone else in Ireland was listening to Matt Cooper on Today FM at about 5.25pm GMT but Matt was talking to Sean about the failed demo in London. He was asked directly if the technology would be able to provide free energy & he convincingly said it was. Nothing really new was said but Sean did say that they wouldn't announce the next demo until it was fully operational and that the next Demo would be happening VERY SOON!!

Dr.mike:If you are confused about something, you don't blab to the world you know the subject deeply. If it were just "incomplete understanding" there would be no attempt at deeper explanations. Sean spent a lot of time talking and explaining. His actions suggested to me that he really thought he had full understanding of the subject he was discussing.

Our minds connections to reality are through our senses. It is really easy to to connect things which are not really connected.

---

Ignorant of the physics and effects involved +

Arrogant, Delusional and Charismatic +

Near bankrupt company and CEO desperate for a company saving product

Total = Sean

(to be fair this is only based on a years worth of observation of Sean and "DrMike said")

The failure of the demo and subsequent comments from admittedly casual yet sophisticated observers such as Dr. Mike spell doom for the Steorn free energy device (Orbo).

There is no such device, has never been a device, and is not likely to be such a device in the future. This is absolutely consistent with the skeptical position from day 1; it is also consistent with the failure of Steorn to provide the alleged thing to the so-called "jury".

Steorn will very likely undergo a series of lawsuits from investors. These investors may very well have been defrauded with claims such as "we have the technology", or "we are just about to complete development", etc. Such a claim (in the US anyway) would not be excluded by Sean's "belief" that they could do as they claimed, particularly if they never actually produced a device.

In any lawsuit, Crank will be outed as a participant in the Steorn scheme or at least someone with a significant belief stake.

The believers (007, E8, Gaby) will find some other hull-less ship to which they can tether their fantasy universe; one example is the ridiculous SEG advertised on youtube. You can search for it by searching the author as such: "Dr Terry Moore". By the way, terry moore is a fraudulent doctor; he is a homeopath.

Babcat, who appears to be a wholesome yet childish believer, will be the most seriously affected and possibly emotionally impacted by these troubling developments (even though he was told this would be the case at the beginning and throughout).

Steorn is now a sinking ship. The sharks are circling.

Overall prediction: Within six month, all that will remain of Steorn is this website.

Actually, anybody else get the impression that this farce has gone on long enough? Who has lost money on this nonsense; come on, step up. You're greedy just like everybody else; you did something foolish and now you are going to LOSE EVERYTHING.

YOU ARE LOSING EVERYTHING, GOT IT?

*UNLESS* you grab some courage and call the cops. That's right, get the police involved, stop the bloodshed. Perhaps you will only get back 10 cents on the dollar, but that is still better than a TOTAL LOSS. WHY should you lose EVERYTHING for just one single moment of lost composure? Sean is a SWINDLER, you have been SWINDLED. You are being VICTIMIZED. CALL THE COPS NOW!!!! Get something back, put this creature into the can.

CALL THE COPS NOW. CALL THE COPS NOW. IT IS OKAY TO CALL THE COPS NOW. DON'T LOSE ALL YOUR MONEY. YOU ARE LOSING ALL YOUR MONEY, MORE AND MORE EACH DAY YOU DELAY. DON'T DELAY ANOTHER MINUTE, CALL THE COPS NOW.

I have, from the beginning, been most concerned about babcat. Not sure how he can be persuaded to take a fresh look at all this though.

For starters, babcat, I can safely say no one will tell you "I told you so." We'll leave those comments for e8 and 007. You're a good guy. With your energy and passion, and with the extra schooling, you could easily be an innovator in the realm of engineering and science. Come on back!

I really don't believe there is a jury - but Marrisa knows more than I do, so if there is a group of people that exist it is more than I would have guessed based on observation. The jury has not done anything because nothing has been given to them. They can not validate a technology which does not work.

The whole thing really was a trip down the rabbit hole into wonderland. The many levels of nonsense come from not having a grounded sense of reality.

The line between sane and insane depends on the culture, time, and past history of a group of people. Sean is not "insane", he's perfectly normal. He's really good at convincing people of his version of reality.

He's also really good at convincing himself of what that reality is. to me, that is delusion.

I could still be wrong - and all speculation is still open. But Suomipoika nailed the facts correctly. Facts are facts - we have all actually experienced them. There is no reason to hide from these facts.

The full report will give more chronological details, but the conclusion stands. I don't think there ever has been any "over unity device" and I don't expect one in the future.

Is Dr. Puthoff as baffled about Steorn as the rest of us? Did he say anything about why Steorn has not done (to anyones knowledge anyway) ... caloimetry?

Yes, he was hoping to find something. He has offered to do calorimetry, but needsa working device first. There is no working device.""

Having only observed this maddness from the vantage of the web, the above is the final nail in the coffin for me unless Sean can come up with calorimetric results, and soon.

Even a null test would be a huge step forward in their credibility now.

For the world,(excluding some diehards on the Steorn forum),the persistence of Steorn in resisting doing full up calorimetry is in itself the final test of their not only their scientific claims, but their sincerity.

Steorn knows this, and they have for quite some time.

Anything Short of calorimetry, demos, videos (and the jury-for which a valid report would have to contain calorimetry) is for the consumption of the Steorn forum only.

At this point I think the jury is also in his mind. He probably talks to them often. He did say they have not seen any devices.

The jury still hasn't seen a device yet, after all this time? Even one that doesn't quite work "yet"? What the hell are they doing then? What is the point of having a jury if there is nothing to evaluate?

Is this the same Puthoff of Uri Geller and SRI fame? The Puthoff of the now infamous Targ and Puthoff team? If so, I wouldn't put an ounce of credibility in anything the man says; even if it is critical of Steorn.

Total waste of time for any investor to call the police. Fact is, that Sean wasn't intentionally hoaxing and he truly believed this thing.

It's not against any law to get investments for unrealistic products if you believe on them.

And nobody hasn't forced these stupid investors to put a cent into this company.

If Steorn has money left out of 14 million, it's theirs. There is no reason why they should return any of it back to investors (unless they state something else in their partnership contracts). Sean, you're free to keep it.

@drmikeThe whole thing really was a trip down the rabbit hole into wonderland.

That sounds exactly like the tech startup I worked for! I was the only tech guy apart from the CEO, and I quickly realised he had the gift of the gab but no real understanding. I implemented some of his less unworkable ideas, but everyone was caught up in his vision, except me. I felt like one sane person locked in an asylum.

Strange thing is that everyone we presented to were always totally positive, but stopped at the point of handing over cash. Generally they thought either there was an off chance we might come up with something, or they saw us as a bunch of mugs to make money out of.

The other staff seemed to have no idea that the idea would never take off, and had faith in the CEO. Thank god I quit, but that was difficult, it felt like I was betraying friends.

His answers are as evasive and tangential as ever. Apparently the African pump is being built right now (no evidence) *but* the Orbo based power supply will be installed "later". Uhhun.

He refuses to say whether calorimetry has been done or will be done, won't comment on testing methods, and won't say how many if any completed and working devices they have in their inventory. He refuses to say when the demo will be rescheduled.

He doesn't refute Dr. Mike and says the reason Mike was not invited to see the demo unit assembled and tested (when it supposedly ran fine for four hours) because engineers "don't like to have someone watching over their shoulders."

Draw your own conclusions. Also, there are much better and more hardball questions to ask -- wish I had time to formulate them. Maybe someone else will or I will get to it later and get it posted by a friend since I am, of course, among the Damned... uh The Banned.

"I have to right to answer any questions that I want, or ignore those that I want to ignore.... the answer to the question is that we have learned one thing from the London demo and that is not to pre-announce anything. When it happens we will tell you. "(my emphasis in bold)

That is bizarre and bordering on plain stupid. An honest person would have answered like this:

What we learned from the London demo is to schedule plenty of time of ahead, prepare several devices weeks or months ahead and life test them before the demo. We also learned to have plenty of repair parts and backup devices. To regain credibility, we are going to show some videos of Orbo's in action, partially release some of the people who have confirmed the devices' overunity functioning from their NDA's and get their permission to give their names and have them interviewed.

That's what an honest person who actually has a working device would have said. IMO of course.

"But, what are you willing to wager on your expectations that there is no over unity device?"----You can wager nothing against James Randi's $1M dollars if you think you have an OU device. You won't get odds like that at the bookies.

From the forum: Sean looking even more silly cherry picking questions and then answering them horribly vaguely. When pressed on the African water pump (which is being fitted now) he admitted it was just a normal pump but would "eventually" be fuel-less. As they say: LOL

007 - "I am however, VERY concerned for the mental stablility of many of the "cult of FET" members when Steorn do eventually demo again."===============================Yeah, we'll all be driven crazy by the thought that Sean is laughing at us as we revel in free energy for ever and ever.

I have heard a lot about "Sean is totally honest and really believes..." Usually after a scam they have to run and hide from the investors. Stealing 10M is not as much fun if you have to hid out in Zimbabwe for the next ten years. Dennis Lee's "I can't deliver or return any money because I am in jail" was also not the best "out"...However, "Gosh I am sorry about the money and the unworkable idea... I was insane at the time but 15 minutes of therapy and a sugar pill has me all cured know..." Perfect!

Of course, a pathological lier is perfect for the job. In this case, such a person would be "uniquely qualified" while being easily treatable. Insanity defense, walk over to the doctors office, then go spend that money like a mad man!

Sean is obviously incapable of running an ice cube factory in Antarctica, but he may not be completely stupid...

I just wanted to inform you that Marissa is the real deal. See... Marissa is actually Sean in drag. I have hung out with Marissa (no pun intended) and she is VERY honest unlike Sean. Yup, Marissa will not tell a lie. I have also spoken to each jury member and if anyone wants to speak to them simply approach Sean and say, "Sean, It's Jury time, Sean, Look at me Sean, look at me, I want to speak to jury member 5 right now, Sean let me talk to jury number 5"... Sean will then become the jury member. Repeat the sequence for the other jury members just change the number. I suggest jury member 8, he is really hilarious and has seen and built orbo, not only that he has seen Steorn's time travel device. No one really knows much about this device yet but Steorn has captured 18million in funding for this already (just ask Sean if he will let you speak to the investors).

Never mind the semantics, why was Sean being so coy? He threw us nuggets about pumps in Africa and future demos. If he has working devices, I think he would have said so, even without giving numbers/details.

Surely they have had working Orbo's running before the demo? It would be incredible if they had never put together an Orbo before the demo. And surely they are testing Orbo post demo? Or Orbo v2?

Instead he gives a somewhat cryptic reply (thought he said he was going to be more open?), which gives the impression that he does not have, nor ever has had, any Orbos working. That surely is an impression he would strongly like to refute. Instead he quotes a spudder had it running for 8 hours?

I think Thicket is right, Sean promises all sort of things, but seems to stop short of making statements which would be straight lies, at which point he gets cryptic on us.

If this had nothing to do with free energy, and was just another tech co, we would all be saying there is no product, it's vaporware. It's amazing how much leeway you can get if you say you are helping poor Africans though.

I don't think it's logical to think that Sean would admit not having any working devices without qualifying or extending the statement. In the context of his refusing to answer *any* substantial or meaningful question, regardless of how appropriate; and with his current history of constantly falling back to "that's under NDA" in all items in that response string, I'd say the only possible thing he meant was "no, I won't tell you".

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