I still would argue the weakest position group during the Brady era has been the WRs.

Weakest on an overall strong and balanced team, meaning they've always had pretty decent receivers. Their secondary and running game are also just as arguable for the designation, but it's not really important because they've all been productive. I really think their secondary has been worse than their receivers lately, but I also remember that it seems like every year draftniks wanted the Pats to draft a no. 1 wideout and it never happens, and I suspect that contributes to the perception that they lack talent at the position.

Basically, I think you see Bill Belichick wanting to have certain skillsets in his receiving corps and seeks the ones that fit what he likes to do, so maybe his players aren't as valuable to someone else as they are to him. His receivers have to do their jobs in order to be a league-leading passing offense, but call it a weakness if you like, I guess. I may not like Wes Welker as an All-Pro pick, but he's certainly not one of his team's weak points, and while aside from Randy Moss most of the Pats other receivers have been rather anonymous we'd never be talking about Tom Brady there hadn't been receivers who could get open and make clutch catches in critical moments.

Pretty obvious they have a fast paced up tempo scheme and an all world QB who inflates these players stats.

Wes Welker kind of is a joke. Put him on a run first team like the 49ers and tell me how he'd fare. Deion Branch and Julian Edelman could do what he does.

Kaepernick only had 215 yards but on 25 attempts making that a YPA of 8.6. Brady had 440+ yards on 65 throws making that a YPA of 6.8.

Put a Michael Crabtree on the Patriots and he'd destroy Welker's output.

Ok so I'll reply to these points;

First of all, every team runs some version of the no huddle. Only recently in the past few years (after Belichick had a conversation with Chip Kelly) did they really start to emphasise speed and tempo throughout the entire game. Welker had huge seasons before the Pats employed this strategy, as did guys like Randy Moss, Corey Dillon etc. But I suppose those skill players were terrible also?

Secondly, every player fits better in certain systems. Put Michael Crabtree in a system where he is asked to simply run vertical and it won't benefit him either.

Thirdly, the Pats defense isn't exactly elite. The 49ers defense is. Brady also isn't a threat to run the ball and when both Vereen and Ridley fumbled they were benched. That left a running game of Danny Woodhead, oh and by the way, they were also 28 points behind. Of course he is going to pass loads and the 49ers knew it and therefore gave him the underneath stuff most of the day.

The Pats defended the run with 10 men because one defender was constantly going after Kaep to prevent QB keepers. That meant they had to play a safety in the box pretty much all game. Any decent QB is going to make a few big plays against that front. It was the Pats gameplan just expecting they would make more, and without turning the ball over so much they would have.

So bringing up ypa in one game from two different teams, with differing systems against differing defenses just doesn't wow me as a stat...sorry about that

And lastly, no he likely wouldn't. The Pats offense is built on being methodical and exploiting matchups in the middle of the field. Quite often they use their outside WRs as decoys to occupy at least one safety. Only since Gronkowski has been hurt has Brandon Lloyd's value and targets gone up and that is because without Gronk defenses can bracket Welker and Hernandez inside forcing Brady to go outside. The NFL isn't all simpl about talent. Try looking at certain systems before making comments like this. Crabtree is someone I would love the Pats to have but for it to be worthwhile for both they would need to change their offensive system.

Tom Brady has 3 Super Bowl rings, and not one of them came when Wes Welker was on the team.

That has nothing to do with why Welker isn't even a Top 30 current NFL receiver...it's just to discredit the whole, "Tom Brady didn't get to be one of the greatest and a 1st ballot HOFer without throwing to somebody" argument.

There was a time when people were hyping up David Givens and Deion Branch on the free agent market. The teams who bought into it (Titans and Seahawks) got burned.

Now...Current Receivers Better than Welker (not in a particular order):

Wes Welker isnít garbage and, in most cases, isnít overrated. Thereís more to being a wide receiver than being a jaw-dropping athlete. Being a more athletic receiver doesnít equate to being a better receiver. The NFL doesnít work like that. This isnít pick-up football. Thereís a lot that goes into being a productive wide receiver. In the past two decades, weíve seen a lot of freaks come through the pipelines. In that same time span, only two rookie receivers have surpassed the 1,000-yard benchmark. It takes more than measurables to dominate. It demands meticulous attention to detail, coverage recognition, spatial awareness, polished fundamentals, etc.

Being bigger, stronger, faster isnít the sole decider. Isolate the receiver, evaluate his traits. I donít care about their explosiveness if their release is reluctant. I donít care about their deep speed if the scheme doesnít ask them to run those routes. I donít care about their vertical if their ball skills are nonexistent. I donít care about their athletic potential in practice if their performance doesnít reflect that in games.

Being the best athlete in the game doesnít guarantee separation or being in the right place at the right time. Like I said in the other thread, athletic gifts donít help receivers break down defenses. A hot receiverís timed speed is irrelevant on a third-and-long where a defense is showing jailbreak blitz. It wonít help a receiver recognize the front as a false front because the last five times that defensive coordinator has dialed up that call in that situation in the offenseís half of the field while protecting his lead, the defensive end has shaded inside to create space for the rushing outside linebacker and now heís aligned in his base technique, so the route heís running is fine. Those are intangibles. And those are critical to being a receiver.

Are his numbers a little inflated due to his scheme? In all likelihood. But who cares? His skill set fits with their option route passing concepts. Two or three games from Julian Edelman over four seasons doesnít render Welker interchangeable or replaceable.

If being a better athlete is the single most important trait, explain how Chad Johnson didnít just take over Welkerís role and shatter his milestones. Or Donte Stallworth, for that matter.

Wes Welker isnít garbage and, in most cases, isnít overrated. Thereís more to being a wide receiver than being a jaw-dropping athlete. Being a more athletic receiver doesnít equate to being a better receiver. The NFL doesnít work like that. This isnít pick-up football. Thereís a lot that goes into being a productive wide receiver. In the past two decades, weíve seen a lot of freaks come through the pipelines. In that same time span, only two rookie receivers have surpassed the 1,000-yard benchmark. It takes more than measurables to dominate. It demands meticulous attention to detail, coverage recognition, spatial awareness, polished fundamentals, etc.

Being bigger, stronger, faster isnít the sole decider. Isolate the receiver, evaluate his traits. I donít care about their explosiveness if their release is reluctant. I donít care about their deep speed if the scheme doesnít ask them to run those routes. I donít care about their vertical if their ball skills are nonexistent. I donít care about their athletic potential in practice if their performance doesnít reflect that in games.

Being the best athlete in the game doesnít guarantee separation or being in the right place at the right time. Like I said in the other thread, athletic gifts donít help receivers break down defenses. A hot receiverís timed speed is irrelevant on a third-and-long where a defense is showing jailbreak blitz. It wonít help a receiver recognize the front as a false front because the last five times that defensive coordinator has dialed up that call in that situation in the offenseís half of the field while protecting his lead, the defensive end has shaded inside to create space for the rushing outside linebacker and now heís aligned in his base technique, so the route heís running is fine. Those are intangibles. And those are critical to being a receiver.

Are his numbers a little inflated due to his scheme? In all likelihood. But who cares? His skill set fits with their option route passing concepts. Two or three games from Julian Edelman over four seasons doesnít render Welker interchangeable or replaceable.

If being a better athlete is the single most important trait, explain how Chad Johnson didnít just take over Welkerís role and shatter his milestones. Or Donte Stallworth, for that matter.

Pretty much sums it all up. Although in regards to Welker I don't think anymore we can add reliable hands as a positive. I could be wrong but he may well lead the league, or be very close, in drops and against Houston I believe he had 4 or 5 drops in that one game

Wes Welker isn’t garbage and, in most cases, isn’t overrated. There’s more to being a wide receiver than being a jaw-dropping athlete. Being a more athletic receiver doesn’t equate to being a better receiver. The NFL doesn’t work like that. This isn’t pick-up football. There’s a lot that goes into being a productive wide receiver. In the past two decades, we’ve seen a lot of freaks come through the pipelines. In that same time span, only two rookie receivers have surpassed the 1,000-yard benchmark. It takes more than measurables to dominate. It demands meticulous attention to detail, coverage recognition, spatial awareness, polished fundamentals, etc.

Being bigger, stronger, faster isn’t the sole decider. Isolate the receiver, evaluate his traits. I don’t care about their explosiveness if their release is reluctant. I don’t care about their deep speed if the scheme doesn’t ask them to run those routes. I don’t care about their vertical if their ball skills are nonexistent. I don’t care about their athletic potential in practice if their performance doesn’t reflect that in games.

Being the best athlete in the game doesn’t guarantee separation or being in the right place at the right time. Like I said in the other thread, athletic gifts don’t help receivers break down defenses. A hot receiver’s timed speed is irrelevant on a third-and-long where a defense is showing jailbreak blitz. It won’t help a receiver recognize the front as a false front because the last five times that defensive coordinator has dialed up that call in that situation in the offense’s half of the field while protecting his lead, the defensive end has shaded inside to create space for the rushing outside linebacker and now he’s aligned in his base technique, so the route he’s running is fine. Those are intangibles. And those are critical to being a receiver.

Are his numbers a little inflated due to his scheme? In all likelihood. But who cares? His skill set fits with their option route passing concepts. Two or three games from Julian Edelman over four seasons doesn’t render Welker interchangeable or replaceable.

If being a better athlete is the single most important trait, explain how Chad Johnson didn’t just take over Welker’s role and shatter his milestones. Or Donte Stallworth, for that matter.

yes and all the while possessing the ability to drop potentially super bowl winning throws in the most dire of circumstances

and just to touch base with the initial argument, how significantly better do the patriots become if they swap receivers with SF? wes welker, brandon lloyd, and deion branch for crabtree, moss, manningham, and kyle williams. with of the utmost ease, crabtree becomes a 1000+ yard receiver while eclipsing 10 td's for the first time in his career. manningham (under the premise that he is healthy) also surpasses his career high in yards set with the giants (944). moreover, kyle williams statistics manifest somewhere in the 700 yard 3-4 touch down range. this notion is without a doubt plausible, given each player's upside and brady's abilities

Psssh, insert any player on this offense and they immediately become 100 catches, 1000 yards, 10 TD type receivers. Thats a fact.

Exactly and when they don't it's just Belichick trolling. If BB wanted it to happen Chad Johnson could have broken every receiving record ever last year but instead he just decided to tell Brady not to throw to him because Belichick do what Belichick do

The 49ers won 5 SBs without their current defense. Thus, their defense stinks. It's just plain dumb.

And that's equivalent to me not being able to comprehend very basic English.

I think it was somewhere, like, here:

Quote:

That has nothing to do with why Welker isn't even a Top 30 current NFL receiver...it's just to discredit the whole, "Tom Brady didn't get to be one of the greatest and a 1st ballot HOFer without throwing to somebody" argument.

Did I not spell it out for you that I was NOT making that argument? Was this somehow unclear? Unbelievable. You should never have been allowed to pass 4th grade.

Wes Welker isnít garbage and, in most cases, isnít overrated. Thereís more to being a wide receiver than being a jaw-dropping athlete. Being a more athletic receiver doesnít equate to being a better receiver. The NFL doesnít work like that. This isnít pick-up football. Thereís a lot that goes into being a productive wide receiver.

Being a productive receiver doesn't equate to being a great wide receiver. There's a lot more that goes into being a great wide receiver.

Quote:

In the past two decades, weíve seen a lot of freaks come through the pipelines. In that same time span, only two rookie receivers have surpassed the 1,000-yard benchmark. It takes more than measurables to dominate. It demands meticulous attention to detail, coverage recognition, spatial awareness, polished fundamentals, etc.

It requires less and less as time goes on. The rule changes have made it so that getting open is not only expected...it's pathetic if you can't. Every receiver who enters the NFL can be "productive" if used in the right scheme.

Quote:

Being the best athlete in the game doesnít guarantee separation or being in the right place at the right time. Like I said in the other thread, athletic gifts donít help receivers break down defenses. A hot receiverís timed speed is irrelevant on a third-and-long where a defense is showing jailbreak blitz. It wonít help a receiver recognize the front as a false front because the last five times that defensive coordinator has dialed up that call in that situation in the offenseís half of the field while protecting his lead, the defensive end has shaded inside to create space for the rushing outside linebacker and now heís aligned in his base technique, so the route heís running is fine. Those are intangibles. And those are critical to being a receiver.

Just so you know, what you wrote there is utter gibberish. Seems like we have a pseudo-football intellectual on our hands. Yeesh.

First of all, he doesn't demonstrate reliable hands at all. Over the past few years, he has dropped more passes than anyone...and he is thrown the easiest passes to catch. In his career, the average distance from the line of scrimmage in which he catches a pass is 5.3 yards.

Secondly, and more to the point - there are countless players in the NFL who match those very same descriptions you gave. Do you honestly think there's something so different about this undersized, slow, somewhat quick, feisty receiver that he at least doubles the production of so many of a similar mold before him?

And if there is...why was he doing exactly what you'd expect from someone of this mold in Miami? 67 catches for 687 yards and 1 TD. That's exactly what you'd expect out of someone like him.

What is it that you are trying to argue? That he has a few skills? No, duh. He made it to the NFL. I can assure you, every single player who has ever made it to the NFL is capable of doing things if it's made easy enough for him. Every receiver who makes it to the NFL can catch screen passes and get open on drag routes. And if they're not smart enough to run "option routes," they're not going to last very long in the NFL.

Remember Troy Edwards? He was a bust, now, wasn't he? Imagine if he were in Wes Welker's role. What's he missing? He was quick. He was much, much faster. He could run short patterns quite effectively. What's he missing? Is he just not a super-genius like Welker? Is he incapable of learning all the mental stuff?

Is Wes Welker just so brilliant that no other guy with similar physical makeup can do what he does in that role in the New England offense? Quick, donate the man's brain to science, he must be a genius!

Football...it's rocket surgery now, folks.

Quote:

Are his numbers a little inflated due to his scheme? In all likelihood. But who cares?

Is that your argument? "Who cares?"

How about people who care about the sanctity of the pro football Hall of Fame? How about the people who care about players who actually deserve the recognition being the ones who get it?

This clown took an AP first-team all-pro spot (not to mention a Pro Bowl selection spot) away from 30+ more deserving players.

Quote:

His skill set fits with their option route passing concepts.

And so does Deion Branch's and Donte Stallworth's, apparently. So does Aaron Hernandez's. So does Danny Woodhead's.

Quote:

Two or three games from Julian Edelman over four seasons doesnít render Welker interchangeable or replaceable.

Yes, actually, it does. Those 2 or 3 games, if you actually watched them, demonstrated what everybody with a brain already knew - just about any receiver who makes it to the NFL can do what Welker does. All you have to do is actually watch him play and see how little he actually has to do to "produce."

This is what always happens when someone who is unimpressive puts up numbers as a result of the system he is in. The stat-obsessed fans make up intangibles and boring, imaginary attributes to defend that player's worthiness of said numbers.

We saw it with Shaun Alexander. "Well, he may be incredibly stiff, soft, and lumber through gaping holes in the most hideous and unimpressive way imaginable, but what you don't see is how PATIENT he is. His vision is just so good, that's why he's legitimately awesome. It's not just Walter Jones, Steve Hutchinson, and Mack Strong blasting open holes for him. Your eyes deceive you!"

We saw it with all the Denver running backs during the Shanahan era. "Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Tatum Bell, Mike Bell, your mom...they are all great at finding cutback lanes and keeping their shoulders square and running downhill!"

And we saw it with receivers playing under Mike Martz. "Mike Furrey and Shaun McDonald run precise patterns!"

We also saw it with all the running backs catching passes on the 49ers in the 80s and 90s. "Well, Derek Loville runs good routes out of the backfield and has good hands! Same with William Floyd! Just like Roger Craig and Tom Rathman before them!"

Here's the reality of football - if the player doesn't look impressive doing it, he's probably not that good of a player.

Quote:

If being a better athlete is the single most important trait, explain how Chad Johnson didnít just take over Welkerís role and shatter his milestones. Or Donte Stallworth, for that matter.

Because Bill Belichick didn't put them in Welker's role. They're split ends, which is where Lloyd is playing right now. I'm quite certain they can catch screen passes and run drag routes and beat linebackers. But Wes Welker has been playing that role, so they never got a chance.

I in no way was trying to diss Welker. He's an odd cat, but he does, or did, have an NFL skillset to play WR. He's just not fast and he's not big.

What I was noticing is that when you look at most HOF QBs or those most likely to reach Canton, they've had typically very good to borderline elite WRs.
Except for Elway except towards the end of his career.

It seems like before every draft Belichick has a million extra picks, and I'm surprised he hasn't been able to parlay that into building a GB/Saints level WR corps over the years.

I in no way was trying to diss Welker. He's an odd cat, but he does, or did, have an NFL skillset to play WR. He's just not fast and he's not big.

What I was noticing is that when you look at most HOF QBs or those most likely to reach Canton, they've had typically very good to borderline elite WRs.
Except for Elway except towards the end of his career.

It seems like before every draft Belichick has a million extra picks, and I'm surprised he hasn't been able to parlay that into building a GB/Saints level WR corps over the years.

Yes Bill knows TEs. But he doesn't know WRs.

I think part of that is due to the fact that he loves getting heady veterans at WR and part due to the fact that he struggles (or the scouting staff do) in finding good WRs in the draft. Really though, the only two highish WRs drafted were Chad Jackson and Taylor Price. Now Jackson was a huge disappointment but Price is going to break out any day now

Knock it off. I could easily shred you in every thread on your hilarious Alex Smith/Kaepernick hypocrisy and how all the ridiculous defenses/praise for Smith have been officially exposed for the silliness they were, but I have barely said anything on the subject.

Feel free. Bring quotations that show I'm the hypocrite. I'll be waiting.

Are you seriously going to come into every one of my threads and ask people if they're "seriously arguing with me?"

Knock it off. I could easily shred you in every thread on your hilarious Alex Smith/Kaepernick hypocrisy and how all the ridiculous defenses/praise for Smith have been officially exposed for the silliness they were, but I have barely said anything on the subject.

...
Now, back on topic - Danny Amendola has 57 catches in 9 games this year, and had 85 in 2010. What makes Welker any better than him? Remember, Welker only managed 67-687-1 when he was on the Dolphins in 2006. Like Welker in his Dolphins days, Amendola is on a lousy team...and, more importantly, a lousy team that isn't the New England Patriots.

If someone legitimately believes that Brandon "I must jump unnecessarily and fall to the ground for every pass to make it look more spectacular" Lloyd is a better receiver than Wes Welker, then their opinion is not worth noting.

Because Bill Belichick didn't put them in Welker's role. They're split ends, which is where Lloyd is playing right now. I'm quite certain they can catch screen passes and run drag routes and beat linebackers. But Wes Welker has been playing that role, so they never got a chance.

Or maybe they are better suited to playing on the outside, while Welker is better suited to play the slot role?

Consider my Broncos. Brandon Stokely isn't an "impressive" athlete... but he's savvy enough to find the holes in the coverage, has enough quicks to make the moves needed and his chemistry with Manning allows them to easily change things up depending on circumstances. He is the right guy for the role he's asked to play. I suspect the same things could be said for Welker.

If someone legitimately believes that Brandon "I must jump unnecessarily and fall to the ground for every pass to make it look more spectacular" Lloyd is a better receiver than Wes Welker, then their opinion is not worth noting.

Wait, you just said that about the best acrobat receiver in the league? Oh. my. God. Please stop watching football. You're an embarrassment.

Or maybe they are better suited to playing on the outside, while Welker is better suited to play the slot role?

Consider my Broncos. Brandon Stokely isn't an "impressive" athlete... but he's savvy enough to find the holes in the coverage, has enough quicks to make the moves needed and his chemistry with Manning allows them to easily change things up depending on circumstances. He is the right guy for the role he's asked to play. I suspect the same things could be said for Welker.

Being savvy isn't enough to put you in the top 5 of WR's in the game or the all-pro list.

Seriously, just put the inflated stats away. How would this turd do in a boring, run first offense that throws 25 times per game? Can anyone answer that?