yea, Ygmir, I think I was hanging out with the wrong types back then! (I lived with them in Mexico too, another odd trip) They're nice enough freinds, but attract strange energy. Next time, Hawaii for me and if AK it'll be a cruise, low budget and safe. Glad you liked it up there in AK Ygmir.

Sorry, is someone buying a playa in Nevada? (just kidding)

I'm the MAN in a truck, burner who is stuck, you're in luck! I'll whip out my BIG tow chain and not charge you, not even one lousy buck!

bradtem wrote:The distance of the event from most of its participants is no trivial thing. My estimates suggest we burn a million gallons of fuel, and probably a fair bit more, getting to Burning Man. Even from San Francisco, bringing a heavy truck or RV up to the playa involves around 100 gallons of gasoline ($350 to $400) and anywhere from $200 to $300 in mileage depreciation at the RV rental place rates which tend to be 30 to 50 cents/mile. Even a 30mpg car still will burn 27 gallons. The people who fly in burn a lot as well of course.

I always chuckle when Burning Man is billed as "leave no trace" event. We sure leave a hell of a trace in order to get there and leave no trace.

BM does no even need to own the land, leasing or renting from a landowner helps with a lot of issues,how about the idea that I have been pushing for years? the turf farms in central oregon are right off the highway, and are covered in manicured grass - a new crop every year.hard enough to ride bicycles on and can support tractor trailers.

There would be a dirt road or two splitting the fields in two, but completely doable and they represent tens of thousands of acres in single plots. There is a couple of ways to do it rent wise as well. Buy the land outright and maintain it yourself, with BMORG selling the turf or not selling it yearly. Buy the crop from an existing farmer and he makes out since he has no harvesting cost, or he could sell the damaged grass at a discount and make more, growing a new crop for BMAN to stomp down. Boise is 2.5 hours to East, Winnemucca NV 6 hours to South, Portland 6 hours to West, and is still in the middle of nowhere.

Imagine walking on grass for the week? would the lack of dust storms bum you out? How about being on a four lane interstate only 6-7 miles away.

mdmf007 wrote: the turf farms in central oregon are right off the highway, and are covered in manicured grass - a new crop every year.hard enough to ride bicycles on and can support tractor trailers.

Think about this a little more. 50k people on grass and this turns into a giant mess after the first 12 hours of the event, not to mention the art cars.

You really couldn't ask for a better surface for what we're doing than the playa. Dust will be everywhere and it could be much worse than what it is now. I'd much rather have zero dirt anywhere to be found with a dusting of talcum powder as the only issue.

mdmf007 wrote: the turf farms in central oregon are right off the highway, and are covered in manicured grass - a new crop every year.hard enough to ride bicycles on and can support tractor trailers.

Think about this a little more. 50k people on grass and this turns into a giant mess after the first 12 hours of the event, not to mention the art cars.

You really couldn't ask for a better surface for what we're doing than the playa. Dust will be everywhere and it could be much worse than what it is now. I'd much rather have zero dirt anywhere to be found with a dusting of talcum powder as the only issue.

We have had fire camps of 3-4000 people on a tiny field, tractor trailers in and out all day and night, fire trucks, crew busses - the ground stays good to go. Stop watering it and it will be as firm as you want it...

the Landscape Co I work for also grow 100 acres of sod. This would be great, The sod would have to be tilled under afterwards, but hell @$0 .20per sq ft. (discounted from the normal $0.35) is $871,200.00 we take visa/mc and cash.

BBadger wrote:This is how I imagine the "playa" at a grassy Burning Man would turn into:

muddy.jpg

Exactly if not worse.

Next time you're on the playa, try looking down sometime and noticing that by Thursday, any square centimeter of playa from the temple forward has some type of track over it. Seriously. Every inch gets run over again and again and again by buses, feet, bikes, you name it. No way that a grassy surface or any type of dirt that wasn't super hard packed rock/dry lakebed could survive that without making a holy hell nightmare.

007 is right......it's a matter of not watering it while folks are there and before. And, drainage. If the soil drains well, (on a sod farm, it usually does), no worries. The other bonus is even trampled and such, the grass would still help protect from dust.

ygmir wrote:007 is right......it's a matter of not watering it while folks are there and before. And, drainage. If the soil drains well, (on a sod farm, it usually does), no worries. The other bonus is even trampled and such, the grass would still help protect from dust.

Hell, while were spending money on land, why not buy 5sq miles of astroturf? Pay a bunch of mexicans and hippy's to lay it all out before and after the event.

EDIT: I meant to quote the post above the one I did.. the one where it mentions: "Next time you're on the playa, try looking down sometime and noticing that by Thursday, any square centimeter of playa from the temple forward has some type of track over it. Seriously. Every inch gets run over again and again and again by buses, feet, bikes, you name it. No way that a grassy surface or any type of dirt that wasn't super hard packed rock/dry lakebed could survive that without making a holy hell nightmare."

Buying land is feasible and could certainly be done. Dry grazing land averages about $500-1000/acre around Nevada/Southern Oregon/Southwest Idaho, sometimes even less. I happen to know a little bit about buying or exchanging for BLM land, too, although that is a multi-year process with a lot (LOT!) of red tape.

But think about it, and many of you have already touched on this, if the land were owned by the Borg, what would compel the participants to keep it as pristine as we do BLM land? How many people would walk away thinking, "ah hell, the Borg has a year to clean it up!" (ok, some may already think that, but you get my drift...). The BLM oversight is valuable, IMO, because when things go private they can get corrupted and standards go down.

Would installing permanent infrastructure be beneficial or detrimental to the event? Part of the charm of Burning Man, to me, is the fact that 50k+ people can come to the desert for one week a year, and within a few months time all traces of us are gone. It's a temporary community, not a permanent one. Installing flush toilets and power lines would take away from the experimental temporariness. Of course the Borg could refuse to install permanent improvements, but sooner or later their financial bottom line will dictate that permanent improvements would be cheaper in the long run than temporary ones.

And then there is the rumor I continue to hear that Larry Harvey doesn't intend for BM to be an ongoing event, that it will end at some point and the regionals will take its place. So why invest millions with little hope of return, when he can pull the plug anytime right now?

To me, these reasons would be the most compelling reasons why they don't buy land. Because all the legal, liability and permitting issues can be handled easily enough with the right amount of cash and attorneys.

I know many federal laws are broken during the event, many of which are overlooked (nudity and so on). While it might seem like we could do as we liked on private land, you'd have to check the laws of each state to see what might get law enforcement noses twitching. The Rave Act comes to mind.

One event that owns its land, which BMOrg is highly familiar with, is Oregon Country Faire. OCF is not like Burning Man in that it has a lot of permanent structures and most of them are for vending. In fact, to be a vendor there you have to get juried in, then you get a plot that you build a structure on which stays for years. The area is flooded so you take everything out except the structure itself every year, as I understand it. There are other areas that are higher elevation which do not flood. OCF has large parking areas, and also large camping areas (for the "staff") which are both in fields and also just among the woods.

If BM allocated space permanently to theme camps it would change the character of things quite a bit. Some things would be much easier and much more elaborate. But other things would stagnate and old camps would have all the prime space while new camps are more remote. But people would of course clean up their own areas because they would return to them. It goes both ways.

ericthomasdavis wrote:If people would stop being nay-sayer and try to add to this and come up with something workable

I understand that if we clap our hands because we believe in the Playachicken we will, indeed, get the land. Because the only thing that makes this impossible is the fact that people are putting forth reasonable, well thought out suggestions and corrections.Bastards!

*swoon*

ZaphodBurner wrote:The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

ericthomasdavis wrote:Land by battle mountain can be bought 10 acres for 20-40,000$ Look it up first before you put incorrect information out there!

Burning Man takes place on a HUGE piece of land. The event plus the closure zone is around 20K-25K acres. That's a little cost prohibitive if if 20K for 10 acres...don't you think?? Our land rental is a lot less. And I love our event RIGHT where it is.

reality check:Land cost is a minimal issue. It's the relationship with the surrounding communities and laod on the surrounding infrastructure that are the big issues.

Law Enforcement is a non-issue. It's pretty much impossible to gather 50k people without needing some Law Enforcement. I personally am not interested in revisiting the pre-LE days of Burning Man. Just like Ren Fare addicts, the fantasy is far better than the reality - the grissly accidents and deaths. Piss and shit everywhere... Fucked up people with high powered rifels... No thanks.

In many ways the BLM saved Burning Man from certain death. It forced the Org into being and forced BM to learn how to interact with LE and government.

You can buy a chunk of land and have maybe 1000 or 1500 people visit under the right circumstances. But 50K people create a huge impact. No juridiction is likely to simply turn a blind eye when the trash is all over the roads. Cars are boken down everywhere. Car accidents. Community roads grid locked for 24 hour stretches blocking emergency services to locals... Not to mention the vendors that BM depends on to supply heavy equipment and potties and tons of ice etc. And everyone easily forgets the FAA. Ever flown around BRC on a typical day? You don't really notice it until you up there but it's seriously busy air space with all the permits and planning that involves.

The Burning Man org has done a phenomenal job of evolving all the relationships that allow BM to exist. It would be hugely difficult to transplant to another location. Nothing is impossible but it would be extremely unlikely.

And yes, all of the above is why BM has trouble growing. The local road system is maxed out for a few days each side of the event. Traffic control is the biggest forward issue. I fully expect to see staggered tickets for entry and exit in the near future. Or some other solution. I also expect to see an increasing emphasis on regional events in the hope they absorb some of the load.

ericthomasdavis wrote:Land by battle mountain can be bought 10 acres for 20-40,000$ Look it up first before you put incorrect information out there!

Burning Man takes place on a HUGE piece of land. The event plus the closure zone is around 20K-25K acres. That's a little cost prohibitive if if 20K for 10 acres...don't you think?? Our land rental is a lot less. And I love our event RIGHT where it is.

The event would not need 25,000 acres of closure - theres nothing in the desert anyways. under 4000 acres is the footprint of the pentagon used for the trash fence. 1 mile is the radius of the city itself. Pi (r2)3.148 * 640 works out to a lot less than 25,000 acres under 3,000. I like lawn is all.

ericthomasdavis wrote:Land by battle mountain can be bought 10 acres for 20-40,000$ Look it up first before you put incorrect information out there!

Burning Man takes place on a HUGE piece of land. The event plus the closure zone is around 20K-25K acres. That's a little cost prohibitive if if 20K for 10 acres...don't you think?? Our land rental is a lot less. And I love our event RIGHT where it is.

The event would not need 25,000 acres of closure - theres nothing in the desert anyways. under 4000 acres is the footprint of the pentagon used for the trash fence. 1 mile is the radius of the city itself. Pi (r2)3.148 * 640 works out to a lot less than 25,000 acres under 3,000. I like lawn is all.

The city is about two miles across. The pentagon is about 3 miles wide, maybe a bit more. The closure zone is about a mile wide, a little more in some places. So if we think about it as a circle it goes like this:

Area of a circle is 3.14*r2. In this case we will say the event circle is about 5 miles, perhaps 6. A circle of that width would have an area of roughly 24 square miles. Each square miles has 640 acres. So you are right. I overestimated. But it is still about 15,000 acres.

It is a large area and even at $20,000 for 10 acres, that's about 30 million dollars.