Would a Roman Catholic decision to ordain women, help or hinder the dialogue for re-union with the Orthodox?

Quote

Cardinal José da Cruz Policarpo of Lisbon, Portugal, a veteran European prelate at one point considered a contender for the papacy, reportedly has said there’s “no fundamental theological obstacle” to the ordination of women as priests in the Catholic church.

According to the text of an interview with a legal publication in Portugal called Oa, Policarpo said that women’s ordination will happen only “when God wants it,” although not in our lifetimes, and that now is not the time to raise the question.

“Theologically there is no fundamental obstacle,” Policarpo was quoted as saying. “We could say there’s a tradition, because it’s never been done.”

“There’s a fundamental equality among all the members of the church,” the cardinal said. “The problem lies in a strong tradition, which comes from Jesus and from the fact that the churches of the Reformation conceded the priesthood to women.”

« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 07:50:19 AM by Jetavan »

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Given what it did to the dialogue with the Anglicans? I think the answer is clear.

But what if the Catholics have a much better argument than the Anglicans?

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

The Cardinal has since "clarified" his thinking about this. He says in the clarification that the Holy Father is right that the priesthood is definitively reserved to men alone. Your Eminence, that's true not only because the Pope says it is. The Pope, in fact, is just confirming the Tradition.

The Cardinal has since "clarified" his thinking about this. He says in the clarification that the Holy Father is right that the priesthood is definitively reserved to men alone. Your Eminence, that's true not only because the Pope says it is. The Pope, in fact, is just confirming the Tradition.

Happy retirement.

I am still interested in the understanding of theology that was raised by that interview.

Initially I was willing to give the Cardinal the benefit of the doubt because he seemed to simply be outlining the most recent history of the discussion from the commission through John Paul II's response.

But it is that statement "no theological reason"...that is of interest to me.

I tend to agree with the original commission established to study the issue...that the male priesthood is not an issue of theology...as much as it is an issue of anthropology...telling us more about ourselves than it does about God. HOWEVER that does not make it any less a permanent part of Tradition, and not to be meddled with or changed. Why?...because it is in the long tradition of revelation, old and new law.

Well, if Rome were to permit women priests, there is a yes/no answer to your question. No, union would not be helped, it would be quite possible the biggest obstacle to Rome becoming an Orthodox Patriarchate. Yes, it would help re-union, because large numbers of Catholics would flee from the Papacy and join the Orthodox Church.

The Cardinal has since "clarified" his thinking about this. He says in the clarification that the Holy Father is right that the priesthood is definitively reserved to men alone. Your Eminence, that's true not only because the Pope says it is. The Pope, in fact, is just confirming the Tradition.

Happy retirement.

I am still interested in the understanding of theology that was raised by that interview.

Initially I was willing to give the Cardinal the benefit of the doubt because he seemed to simply be outlining the most recent history of the discussion from the commission through John Paul II's response.

But it is that statement "no theological reason"...that is of interest to me.

I tend to agree with the original commission established to study the issue...that the male priesthood is not an issue of theology...as much as it is an issue of anthropology...telling us more about ourselves than it does about God. HOWEVER that does not make it any less a permanent part of Tradition, and not to be meddled with or changed. Why?...because it is in the long tradition of revelation, old and new law.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Well, if Rome were to permit women priests, there is a yes/no answer to your question. No, union would not be helped, it would be quite possible the biggest obstacle to Rome becoming an Orthodox Patriarchate. Yes, it would help re-union, because large numbers of Catholics would flee from the Papacy and join the Orthodox Church.

One of the reasons that it will never happen.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

A friend of mine recently confessed to me that his mother's friend, who is female, became ordained as a priest in the Vatican, however I believe they are a breakaway sect.

Good Lord save us!

This is almost certainly untrue. The Vatican is so small.

Most likely it was in Rome and was wholly illicit and should not have happened.

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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence

"We love our family, the Catholic Church. We fully accept the authority of the Pope. We respect his personal integrity as an outstanding spiritual leader. But we are convinced that the Pope and his advisors are making a serious mistake by dismissing women as priests. We feel obliged in conscience to make our carefully considered reasons known, In doing so, we fulfil our canon law duty to speak out as our present Pope has encouraged us to do. And we do this with deep loyalty to the Church."

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

it would be quite possible the biggest obstacle to Rome becoming an Orthodox Patriarchate.

Oh for God's sake!

I recall that at the time of the ordination of women in the Anglican communion,the Orthodox issued strong statements and announced that future bilateralconsultations would have only a theological nature and would not be aimed at thepursuit of unity. To emphasise this point, the Orthodox decided that from thenon only theologians and not bishops would participate in bilateral seminars,etc. Whether the Orthodox held to this position, I confess I do not know. Anybody?

This contained some strong statements, especially for a Parisian school-SVS man,for example, "the ordination of women to priesthood is tantamount for us to aradical and irreparable mutilation of the entire faith, the rejection of thewhole Scripture, and, needless to say, the end of all "dialogues" .

it would be quite possible the biggest obstacle to Rome becoming an Orthodox Patriarchate.

Oh for God's sake!

I recall that at the time of the ordination of women in the Anglican communion,the Orthodox issued strong statements and announced that future bilateralconsultations would have only a theological nature and would not be aimed at thepursuit of unity. To emphasise this point, the Orthodox decided that from thenon only theologians and not bishops would participate in bilateral seminars,etc. Whether the Orthodox held to this position, I confess I do not know. Anybody?

This contained some strong statements, especially for a Parisian school-SVS man,for example, "the ordination of women to priesthood is tantamount for us to aradical and irreparable mutilation of the entire faith, the rejection of thewhole Scripture, and, needless to say, the end of all "dialogues" .

I don't understand or sympathize at all. I could list at least a handful of innovations of Rome that appear to damage the faith far more than the ordination of women. This just appears like the uncritical reactionism that is all too common among the Orthodox and social development.

it would be quite possible the biggest obstacle to Rome becoming an Orthodox Patriarchate.

Oh for God's sake!

I recall that at the time of the ordination of women in the Anglican communion,the Orthodox issued strong statements and announced that future bilateralconsultations would have only a theological nature and would not be aimed at thepursuit of unity. To emphasise this point, the Orthodox decided that from thenon only theologians and not bishops would participate in bilateral seminars,etc. Whether the Orthodox held to this position, I confess I do not know. Anybody?

This contained some strong statements, especially for a Parisian school-SVS man,for example, "the ordination of women to priesthood is tantamount for us to aradical and irreparable mutilation of the entire faith, the rejection of thewhole Scripture, and, needless to say, the end of all "dialogues" .

That is rather strong. I noticed that Anglicans are quoting Romans 16, 1 in support of having women ordained to serve in the Church:"And I commend to you Phebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church, that is in Cenchrae"Some translate this as deaconess in the Church. Generally, how would the Orthodox Church look upon this passage. Does it sanction the practice of ordaining women as deacons in the Church?

Would a Roman Catholic decision to ordain women, help or hinder the dialogue for re-union with the Orthodox?

Quote

Cardinal José da Cruz Policarpo of Lisbon, Portugal, a veteran European prelate at one point considered a contender for the papacy, reportedly has said there’s “no fundamental theological obstacle” to the ordination of women as priests in the Catholic church.

According to the text of an interview with a legal publication in Portugal called Oa, Policarpo said that women’s ordination will happen only “when God wants it,” although not in our lifetimes, and that now is not the time to raise the question.

“Theologically there is no fundamental obstacle,” Policarpo was quoted as saying. “We could say there’s a tradition, because it’s never been done.”

“There’s a fundamental equality among all the members of the church,” the cardinal said. “The problem lies in a strong tradition, which comes from Jesus and from the fact that the churches of the Reformation conceded the priesthood to women.”

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Would a Roman Catholic decision to ordain women, help or hinder the dialogue for re-union with the Orthodox?

Quote

Cardinal José da Cruz Policarpo of Lisbon, Portugal, a veteran European prelate at one point considered a contender for the papacy, reportedly has said there’s “no fundamental theological obstacle” to the ordination of women as priests in the Catholic church.

According to the text of an interview with a legal publication in Portugal called Oa, Policarpo said that women’s ordination will happen only “when God wants it,” although not in our lifetimes, and that now is not the time to raise the question.

“Theologically there is no fundamental obstacle,” Policarpo was quoted as saying. “We could say there’s a tradition, because it’s never been done.”

“There’s a fundamental equality among all the members of the church,” the cardinal said. “The problem lies in a strong tradition, which comes from Jesus and from the fact that the churches of the Reformation conceded the priesthood to women.”

Would a Roman Catholic decision to ordain women, help or hinder the dialogue for re-union with the Orthodox?

Quote

Cardinal José da Cruz Policarpo of Lisbon, Portugal, a veteran European prelate at one point considered a contender for the papacy, reportedly has said there’s “no fundamental theological obstacle” to the ordination of women as priests in the Catholic church.

According to the text of an interview with a legal publication in Portugal called Oa, Policarpo said that women’s ordination will happen only “when God wants it,” although not in our lifetimes, and that now is not the time to raise the question.

“Theologically there is no fundamental obstacle,” Policarpo was quoted as saying. “We could say there’s a tradition, because it’s never been done.”

“There’s a fundamental equality among all the members of the church,” the cardinal said. “The problem lies in a strong tradition, which comes from Jesus and from the fact that the churches of the Reformation conceded the priesthood to women.”

Does it sanction the practice of ordaining women as deacons in the Church?

Yes, and we do it (maybe as not often as we used to do).

Something seems to be amiss here: On the one hand women are to keep silent in the Church, and yet on the other hand, they can be ordained as deaconesses?

I can't comment on the role or state of any contemporary deaconesses, but as I understand it the main role of a deaconess in the ancient Church was to assist women converts during baptism, which of course, was by full immersion, just as it is in many Orthodox and Catholic churches today.

But that really has nothing at all to do with the priesthood or the topic of this thread. (My, how easily we digress !)

Historically, they haven't. And since there aren't any montanist oracles rolling around and babbling sulfur-fueled prophecies in Orthodoxy (although in Protestantism, I can't say the same) I think they should say a bit more.

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Quote from: Pope Francis

Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'Animal politicus.' So at least I am a human person.

Would a Roman Catholic decision to ordain women, help or hinder the dialogue for re-union with the Orthodox?

Quote

Cardinal José da Cruz Policarpo of Lisbon, Portugal, a veteran European prelate at one point considered a contender for the papacy, reportedly has said there’s “no fundamental theological obstacle” to the ordination of women as priests in the Catholic church.

According to the text of an interview with a legal publication in Portugal called Oa, Policarpo said that women’s ordination will happen only “when God wants it,” although not in our lifetimes, and that now is not the time to raise the question.

“Theologically there is no fundamental obstacle,” Policarpo was quoted as saying. “We could say there’s a tradition, because it’s never been done.”

“There’s a fundamental equality among all the members of the church,” the cardinal said. “The problem lies in a strong tradition, which comes from Jesus and from the fact that the churches of the Reformation conceded the priesthood to women.”

Does it sanction the practice of ordaining women as deacons in the Church?

Yes, and we do it (maybe as not often as we used to do).

Something seems to be amiss here: On the one hand women are to keep silent in the Church, and yet on the other hand, they can be ordained as deaconesses?

I can't comment on the role or state of any contemporary deaconesses, but as I understand it the main role of a deaconess in the ancient Church was to assist women converts during baptism, which of course, was by full immersion, just as it is in many Orthodox and Catholic churches today.

But that really has nothing at all to do with the priesthood or the topic of this thread. (My, how easily we digress !)

Anglicans see Romans 16, 1 as sanctioning the ordination of women as priests. So I don't think mention of Romans 16, 1 is a digression.

Would a Roman Catholic decision to ordain women, help or hinder the dialogue for re-union with the Orthodox?

Quote

Cardinal José da Cruz Policarpo of Lisbon, Portugal, a veteran European prelate at one point considered a contender for the papacy, reportedly has said there’s “no fundamental theological obstacle” to the ordination of women as priests in the Catholic church.

According to the text of an interview with a legal publication in Portugal called Oa, Policarpo said that women’s ordination will happen only “when God wants it,” although not in our lifetimes, and that now is not the time to raise the question.

“Theologically there is no fundamental obstacle,” Policarpo was quoted as saying. “We could say there’s a tradition, because it’s never been done.”

“There’s a fundamental equality among all the members of the church,” the cardinal said. “The problem lies in a strong tradition, which comes from Jesus and from the fact that the churches of the Reformation conceded the priesthood to women.”

Does it sanction the practice of ordaining women as deacons in the Church?

Yes, and we do it (maybe as not often as we used to do).

Something seems to be amiss here: On the one hand women are to keep silent in the Church, and yet on the other hand, they can be ordained as deaconesses?

I can't comment on the role or state of any contemporary deaconesses, but as I understand it the main role of a deaconess in the ancient Church was to assist women converts during baptism, which of course, was by full immersion, just as it is in many Orthodox and Catholic churches today.

But that really has nothing at all to do with the priesthood or the topic of this thread. (My, how easily we digress !)

Anglicans see Romans 16, 1 as sanctioning the ordination of women as priests. So I don't think mention of Romans 16, 1 is a digression.

Agreed--if we're talking about priests/priestesses and not deacons/deaconesses.

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

After reading through it- Wow! Apparently being a "Roman Catholic" WomanPriest/Bishop means you also get to ignore the celibacy rules- over half were married.

I hate to disappoint them, but there is, so far, no such thing as a female Roman Catholic priest or bishop. If there comes a point in my lifetime when there is, I'll have to consider my options very seriously.

JENNIFER O’MALLEY: I do. It’s who I am, so I can’t leave. You know, I’ve gone to other churches and they’re beautiful, but I’m Catholic, and I can’t separate myself from that.....GONZALEZ: And your response to those who think at worst this is heresy, out and out, and at best some sort of a stunt, really. What do you say to them?

O’MALLEY: You know, it’s a call from God, and I believe it to be a true call, so those other things have to be put aside. And if that means breaking a law within the church, I know within myself, within my intellect and emotionally, that it is the right thing to do.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Met. Kallistos says the same, that the Fathers were silent about women's ordinations (or why men only were ordained). But that doesn't mean we're ordaining women anytime soon. We just have to be honest about that fact that there was no solid teaching against it. At this point we don't have the power to change tradition anyway.

Met. Kallistos says the same, that the Fathers were silent about women's ordinations (or why men only were ordained). But that doesn't mean we're ordaining women anytime soon. We just have to be honest about that fact that there was no solid teaching against it. At this point we don't have the power to change tradition anyway.

I don't get the impression that Metropolitan Kallistos is in favor of ordaining women, just that he's in favor of coming up with better arguments against it.

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

O’MALLEY: You know, it’s a call from God, and I believe it to be a true call, so those other things have to be put aside. And if that means breaking a law within the church, I know within myself, within my intellect and emotionally, that it is the right thing to do.

" I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience." - Martin Luther

It's interesting to note that modern RC "reformers" often use similar rhetoric and appeals to conscience.

GONZALEZ: O’Malley is a member of a group called Roman Catholic Women Priests. It was started in 2002 when seven women, in an act of defiance against the Vatican, were ordained as priests by a male bishop in Europe.

So, to RC's, they would be considered validly ordained priests, administering illicit but valid sacraments?

Met. Kallistos says the same, that the Fathers were silent about women's ordinations (or why men only were ordained). But that doesn't mean we're ordaining women anytime soon. We just have to be honest about that fact that there was no solid teaching against it. At this point we don't have the power to change tradition anyway.

I don't get the impression that Metropolitan Kallistos is in favor of ordaining women, just that he's in favor of coming up with better arguments against it.

I agree with this, I'd just add that I think part of it is, going beyond formulating more arguments, Met. Kallistos also that he wants us to engage the world. The early Christians didn't just say "Greek myths are stupid," but they took the time to explain why certain things were wrong, why we believed as we did, etc. I think he wants us to do the same thing in this case, even though many in the world will not in general accept the answers. That way when they reject traditional Christianity it won't be because they didn't have a full picture, but rather because they understood the full picture and rejected it. I think it was Archbp. Fulton Sheen who said, to paraphrase from memory, that many people rejected what they thought was Catholicism, but few actually reject Catholicism as it truly is. I think this is something along the same lines: if they're going to reject Orthodoxy, let's make sure it's not because we didn't explain ourselves clearly, or weren't willing to take the time to engage them.