...then it would seem to be the case that those practicing for the fruits of the various stages are trainees for the respectives stages (have weaker faculties than those who have fully attained those paths). So one who "is practising for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry" is, at least in terms of SN 48.18, not yet a full stream-enterer, but yet may still be one of those noble eight persons. I don't think your quote, per say, really contradicts the idea that a Dhamma-follower or faith-folllower might possibly be the 1st such person in the scheme of 8 persons.

No, I only intended to link up the magga and phala persons with the 8 people as you said you didn't think much about previously. The magga and phala people aren't shown to be close to each other in EBTs. It is possible to give dana to each one individually, so if the magga person lasts only a moment, it would be impossible to give dana to that person:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Sotāpanne dānaṁ deti,A gift one gives to a Stream-Enterer,

ayaṁ navamī pāṭipuggalikā dakkhiṇā. this is the ninth offering to an individual.

Sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanne dānaṁ deti,A gift one gives to one who has entered upon the way to experiencing the fruit of Stream-Entry,

ayaṁ dasamī pāṭipuggalikā dakkhiṇā. this is the tenth offering to an individual.

Atma (my person) is not sure of what Nyom means with "Non-Attachment" put assumes that right release, in form of one of the stages of awaking is mean, so to speak a Noble person, no more able to fall into lower realm and destinated to final release.

It is not possible to gain right release aside of the Noble Eightfold path which incl. the factor of virtue. Right virtue, right spech, conduct, livelihood are the prerequisites for right mindfulness and right concentration.

It is possible to gain such as "non attachment" when we remember householder - equanimity, upekkha which is based on ignorance, having not transcendent form (see MN137 here and foot notes in this regard ). Such training of being not released but possible bear as much faults is trained by certain sectarians using the "trademark" Dhamma of the Buddha for it.

Since such equanimity is always conditioned, it is subject to decay and not lasting but because it is possible to develope it is very dangerous because one is still subject to the effects of ones deeds based on wrong view.When people have accumulated much merits then, like in the simile of the "The Salt Crystal people often feel untouchable, but effects of deeds come, sometimes later, even lifetimes later.

That is way the Buddha pointed out the fact that King Pasenadi realiced here :

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"That's the way it is, great king! That's the way it is! Few are those people in the world who, when acquiring lavish wealth, don't become intoxicated & heedless, don't become greedy for sensual pleasures, and don't mistreat other beings. Many more are those who, when acquiring lavish wealth, become intoxicated & heedless, become greedy for sensual pleasures, and mistreat other beings."

What ever wealth comes to one, is a matter of merits, and in that way this should be understood also in regard of merits. Having a lot of merits gained does not ensure being free of falling into lower realms and does not ensure that one is destinated to release.

If we look at the Sutta Nyom had quoted, we see who is no more subject of falling downward.

As for the "Drinker" here, like the Buddha told at the end, he had fullfilled the training at the end of his life, meaning, he had developed the Noble Eightfold path at the moment of death. So starting with this point, he has become a Stream-winner.

Since it is a big discussion in many Dhamma-forums this days, in how far or if a stream-enterer could break precepts, my person takes that question here also as having somehow originated for one of them and Nyom might be actually a person having participated into the one and other, more or lesser touched by this or that view.

In regard of drinking. When we look at the Noble Eightfold Paths discription, we might discover that "only" for precepts are mentioned for the most time.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right action as right action. This is one's right view. And what is wrong action? Killing, taking what is not given, illicit sex. This is wrong action... (see also other quotes in Right Action )

But since drinking makes heedless, and heedlessness is the cause of wrong doing, it is logical to include this kind of sensual pleasure, produced by means causing lack of (moral) shame.

In one having gained right view, let's say a person having gained the 1. path, or being faith or dhamma-follower, knowing or not, absence of shame does not mean absence of moral shame. So it might be possible for Noble person, not aware of it, that he/she takes indoxicants as a mean of sensual pleasure in a way that does not cause mindlessness and lose of moral shame. You might have observed people who, when getting a little indoxicated, lose fear of doing right (not like the person with wrong view, he/she loses fear of doing wrong).

If ones right mindfulness is very strong, certain levels of indoxication will not really penetrate ones mind, but one should be carefull since we easily overestimated our capability.

How ever, once gained fruit or being aware of ones situation one does no more cause indoxication since knowing that the self-esteem arising with it is an illusion. Commentaries, as having been informed, mentions that a Noble person is no more able to drink alcohol and a seemingly usuall form of testing a person is to put some alcohol into milk and look if he/she drinks it. But that is "just" what comes from the elder monks.

Once knowing, how ever, that taking indoxicants is not proper, a Noble person would have no reason to do not abstain from it.

In regard of directly wrong doing, a Noble person is incapable to perform heavy wrong deeds which require to be based on strong wrong view meaning on a strong self-believe, forgetting or rejecting cause and effect eternaly.

If faults are performed itks not only that fruits, effects of wrong doing arise very quick and one quickly becomes aware, but also one is not able, meaning having no reason to hide or reject wrong doings, and sure of the fact that causes give effects he/she has neither fear to bear the effects nor any believe that he/she could run away from the effects.

He/she is also free of the fetter of performing non conductive practice and following wrong moral conduct. So strong wrong doings in gaining a certain higher aim by "rites & rituals" is also no more possible. Meaning that such strong believe of doing wrong for a good, deliberated "mercy killing" or "lying out of compassion", all the "Robinhood-ethics", to bring some samples, or what ever "Bodhisattas" would do deliberated, would also no more accure. Having lost Self-identity views one will be also no more a "social hero" fighting for a certain group or taking side.

How ever, althought knowing certain thing for sure, yet being not totaly free of the fetter sensual desire and ill-will, which will entirely fall only at the stage of No-returner, he/she might act in "affect", like it is used in legal-therms, but quickly come to sense and bear the fruits and again such deeds will be no heavy offences.

So if you see somebody taking a chocolate in certain circumstances it does not indicate "this person is not a noble one" or if he/she violates precepts in certain stress situations or when he/she is not informed about certain behaviours, remembering a monk in a sutta, who had maintained the habit of addreasing monks like outcasts living as Brahman in earlier existences.

Being really honest to one self, one is able to prove if one is still able to perform heavy wrong deeds in ways of asking oneself and step near to the fire, even without the need of doing so bodily. Such a question: "Am I still able to kill? Am I still able to steal, ...speak what's not true, ...transgress in fleshy lust, deliberately?" Are very good to maybe get needed fear of oneself and become are of "still having the devil insight" and so, in that way, approaches the good disciples of the Buddha and his Dhamma, seeking them as refuge and guardiances till one gain liberation from not-knowings effects.

My person hopes that his bad english and the more broader explaining is not a hindrance to take take this tiny gift of Dhamma by heard and let it penetrate it effectively.

So once again an in regard of the question, which is actually surely better explained be most Ven. Thanissaro in his essay, linked in the OP: No, it is impossible that right release has non-virtue, wrong virtue factors, as its prerequisite. It's impossible that right release arises with non-virtue, and it's imposible that right releases does not cause lasting virtue as result. Why is this? Because right release has right view and right resolve as it's condition amoung with the other factors of the path and what ever rest of boundage is left after gaining right view, is subject of lasting decay, once the wheel of Dhamma is set forth. A person having gained right release, being of no integrity: Such is not possible.

If Nyom (good to use ones given name, having gained right view or faithful trains to lose doubt of "being owner of ones action", such is much more conductive and protects much more, just as practical advice here) has any doubt or question, feel free to ask further. If Nyom sees anything that looks like not right or maybe bad expressed, my person is always greatful to get also rebuked, corrected and critisiced and always invites to that.

Just the time of lunch of the mosquitoes here, my person will not prove read the text, so many grammer and spelling mistakes you might have beared till come to read this here. Sadhu! For that sacrify.)

May all beings have a share of the merits done here and may the Devas inform those not having heard yet so that those able to rejoice may have all shares of the bliss of skillful deeds.

I can't quote any resources, but as I understand it there are special experiences that can occur as a result of the practice. In those experiences you learn something very deep about yourself. As a result of what you learned you will now start to change some of your views and habbits, you will condition yourself differently than before, until eventually those fetters will be gone.

The mind works through conditioning / brain washing you can't get any huge changes instantly.

So first you would be a worldling. Then you will have a special experience (path moment) then you will brainwash your newfound knowledge into yourself until the 3 fetters are gone (fruit)

Let's see if Upasaka Lal will give up his teaching elsewhere on fruitless soil and share some good points for our "Mimosen" Gifted Ones , like Upasaka Dhammavaro here, so that all could learn from you Gifted Ones and you insights from each other.

Once again an encouragement-provocation:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana ... the fourth jhana; incapable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings]... one's family [of supporters]... one's gains... one's status, and stinginess as to the Dhamma. Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; one is incapable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship.

"With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings]... one's family [of supporters]... one's gains... one's status, and stinginess as to the Dhamma. With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship."

Posted by: Johann

Coming back to the question who can fall off the path (better off direction Nibbana) and - the distintion is importand - can fall into lower realms.

As the Buddha mentioned on many occasions, neither a faith-follower, dhamma-follower, nor a path winner can fall off. The faith-follower and dhamma-follower, both at this time not really developed right view, meaning that they might even practice meditation by day and by night, e.g. following just rituals in this way, are still able to conduct a lot of unskillful deeds, even leading them into lower realms after death. So they are bound to this till they would meet right view and if they would not meet the good Dhamma, this could take a long, long time, sometimes till a later Buddha.

That is the reason why traditional young monks are lesser trained in focusing in sitting, but in learning and discussing to gain right view.Once entered the Path, there is no more way back but only more or lesser forward Nibbana. From this time on, one would be able to make one self to an island with Dhamma (he/she already had gained, is already the own.

When ever one takes on to gain the next path, its again nessesary to develop right view in an amount siutable to the fruit. For such it is needed to be next admirable friends. Remember the last part of effacement:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

16. "Cunda, it is impossible that one who is himself sunk in the mire[1] should pull out another who is sunk in the mire. But it is possible, Cunda, that one not sunk in the mire himself should pull out another who is sunk in the mire.

"It is not possible, Cunda, that one who is himself not restrained, not disciplined and not quenched [as to his passions],[2] should make others restrained and disciplined, should make them attain to the full quenching [of passions].[3] But it is possible, Cunda, that one who is himself restrained, disciplined and fully quenched [as to his passions] should make others restrained and disciplined, should make them attain to the full quenching [of passions]. Even so, Cunda:[4]

(1) A person given to harmfulness has harmlessness by which to attain to the full quenching [of it].(2) A person given to killing living beings has abstention from killing by which to attain to the full quenching [of it].(3)-(43)...(44) A person given to misapprehending according to his individual views, to holding on to them tenaciously and not discarding them easily, has non-misapprehension of individual views, non-holding on tenaciously and ease in discarding by which to attain the quenching [of them].

Comy.: "There may be those who object that this is not correct because some come to penetration of the Dhamma (dhammabhisamaya, i.e., stream-entry) after listening to an exposition of the Teaching by monks or nuns, male or female lay followers, who are still worldlings (puthujjana; i.e., have not attained to any of the paths of sanctitude). Hence one who is still in the mire can pull out others. (Reply:) This should not be understood in that way. It is the Blessed One who here does the pulling out."Suppose there is a king who sends a letter to the border region, and the people there, unable to read it by themselves, have the letter read to them by another able to do it. Having learned of the contents, they respond with respect, knowing it as the king's order. But they do not think that it is the letter reader's order; he will receive praise only for his smooth and fluent reading of the letter. Similarly, even if preachers of the ability of Sariputta Thera expound the Dhamma, still they are just like readers of a letter written by another. Their sermon should truly be attributed to the Blessed One, like the decree to the king. The preachers, however, receive their limited praise, just because they expound the Dhamma with a smooth and fluent diction. Hence that statement in the discourse is correct."

For the connection between the modes of effacement and the preceding simile, Comy. gives two alterative explanations:(a) Just as one who is not sunk in the mire himself can pull others out of it, similarly he who is harmless himself can quench another's harmful volition.(b) Just as only he who has quenched his own passions can help one who has not quenched them, similarly only a volition of harmlessness can quench a harmful volition.

Practical: If one is already a faith or dhamma follower, it is most nessesary to associate with people of right view (Noble Ones) or people who stick eager to it in ways of rituals to train one self in regard of gratitude, respect, generosity and still ritual worshipping of those who are conventional above one (since on would not know who is really worthy still being an run-a-mill-person).After having gained path, one should seek for superior after having reached fruitation to make further progress. If not finding, one might stay with equal or, as the Buddha told, walk alone.

If one has not gained the first path, its not conductive to associate with worldlings and doubters. Many, if not most Dhamma discussion places have much common aspirations leaded by wrong view. Such signs are:

* Less till nothing usual in regard of worshipping and paying respect* No attitude in regard of Dana* No encouragement in meeting the monk* No service for the Sangha* No common joy with Sila* Many political discussions* Many comparison with other teachers and science* "all are equal" attitude* justifications of breaking the fundamental precepts* strong doubts toward Devas and other fine material beings* rejecting of life befor and after* sitting and eating (the benefits of the assambling) of lay people and monks on one table, no signs of respects between younger monks with older.* monks doing services and favors for lay people, working for lay people , e.g. living in improper assosiation, wrong livelyhood.* charity and giving toward ordinary people is honored while giving to the Sangha even to Noble Ones criticiced for low social sake* Monks who are engaged in social projects and activism as well as in politic an sociaty issues are honoted and praised* deleting of post and topics, censure and taking of existence (banning people and derive them of existence in their world)* strong desire to divest themselves from outwardly critic (closed groups, seperate practice)* the suppressing of faults is prefered will confessing is not

For a person, even if faith or dhamma-follower, having taken refugee to certain degree, there is no prospering toward path fruit and for one already has gained paths or fruits, not a place he/she would/could stay for a long time, even desired.

While such places give no joy for a Noble One, is a not conductive place for those seeking the Path, for pathfinder. So there are less pathfinder groups who actually stick to, and are guided by path knower.

For a Noble person who desires to enter the path to abound such as sensual craving, ill-will, lazyness, craving for becoming, would not gain much in associating with sensual strong addiced, "fighters", lazy and selfish people, and those strong addicted to become this or that, having their community and its growing as focus.

Atma could not look into the topic quoted obove, where certain things had been discussed with Ven. Pesala. It tells that the topic does not exist.

I have still not gotten back to either of them. I am glad that you ask these questions here now in such precision so that I can try and gather, clarify (for myself) and share what answers I have received so far.

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maranadhammomhi wrote:Of these, &amp; similarly with other noble states, which is it that is impossible to fall back from?

It is my understanding that it is impossible to fall away from either. Once attained the path it is impossible to fall away from it , and one will attain the fruit at the latest at the end of the current lifetime (backed up by this sutta ).(I had misunderstood this message by Ven. Pesala here previously and misinterpreted it as meaning that one could still fall off from the path - which was the reason that I expressed my perplexion here and on the German buddhist forum . But actually Ven. Pesala had clearly said only that "One developing the path leading to Stream-winning could fall-back." - But one developing the path is of course different from someone who has attained the path. Just mentioning this so longwinded here in case you might have had similar confusions.)

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maranadhammomhi wrote:Which occurs along with the abandoning of the three lower fetters?

It is my understanding that abandoning (or weakening, in the case of sakadagami) of fetters occurs only with fruition (phala). (According to what German (and Austrian) buddhists have said, and what I think I have also read previously at some point in the suttas.)

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maranadhammomhi wrote:What is the distinction? How does the former occur compared to the latter, in an experiential sense?

According to a German buddhist and ex-monk here , the path moment is characterized by a clear comprehension/experience of the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta - or maybe only one of them), whereas the fruition moment is characterized by elimination of fetters.However, I believe his understanding is not accurate, and he only related his experience and what he interpreted as magga and phala respectively, without knowing the clear definition and distinction.

According to this answer here by Ven. Johann (previously known as Hanzze or _hanzze in this forum, when he was still a layman) the path moment is "triggered" by some "complete coming together of all the path factors", which may occur most commonly while hearing the Dhamma and listening with appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) and "having laid down the rod" (i.e. being humble(d) and respectful, and thus really receptive at that moment), if I understand correctly. And the fruition moment (at which the fetters are destroyed [or weakened in the case of sakadagami]) can occur directly afterwards or at some later point (at the latest at the moment of death) when there is strong and clear enough mindfulness and concentration to comprehend the three characteristics in full depth.

I believe, the above-quoted (by santa100) explanation by Bhikkhu Bohdhi (and others who claim that path and fruition must always occur directly after another without delay, or even equate the two)

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8NP wrote:The four supramundane paths each eliminate a certain layer of defilements. The first, the path of stream-entry (sotapatti-magga), cuts off the first three fetters, the coarsest of the set, eliminates them so they can never arise again.

is in so far inaccurate that the wasting away of fetters occurs only at the moment of fruition. I believe I have read this explicitly in the suttas, but I don't know the reference now. And, as previously mentioned there is sutta support for the case that the fruition moment occurs delayed in relation to the path moment up until to the moment of death.

as retold in the discussion in Dhammavaro s topic in "further intoduction" (to view one needs to be member). Seeing the three characteristics may give one certain bliss but at this point there is no work done, behind one. Only if that leads to abounding for desire in the world (that has of course different levels of recognising, starting by the lower fetters till the higherst in connection with it) one gains real, mature udayabbayañāṇa. If the danger and the meaningless in regard to Dhammas is not see, right view does not develop for now. When "Purity of insight about right and wrong path" arises, only then one has entered the path. Those who sees the three characteristics not in full, for all known phenomenas, might be called Dhamma-follower. Having found certain factual reason, their confidence is already strong enought to walk in direction of the path, yet not really on it. Althought those might even reject certain right path requirments and still hold on wrong.

Note that the plattern is actually the same for the smallest part of investigation as well in dimensions of livetimes.

So the coming together of real samvega is required to cause real pasada.

A person, althought in direction already, but not gained right view of the path, is still able to fall into lower realms, e.g. is capaple to do real wrong things. Devatata might be a sample, maybe (did not look deeper into it for now).