The Morning Plum

By
Greg Sargent

* Wisconsin Dems deny reports that they are set to return: Yesterday the Wall Street Journal caused a stir by reporting that Dems were signaling that they were prepared to return to the capitol even if Governor Scott Walker fails to drop his push to roll back bargaining rights. Today's Times quotes a Wisconsin Dem seeming to hint the same.

Treat these reports with extreme caution. First of all, the key quote in the Times piece is inconclusive. What's more, Dem state senator Chris Larson told me in an interview yesterday that Dems have not changed their bottom line for returning, that they think public opinion in Wisconsin has solidified on their side, and that "the wind is at our backs." And other Dems have issued statements knocking down rumors of their imminent return.

* Reuters debunks Wall Street Journal claim: Dems also tell Reuters reports of their imminent return are very much exaggerated.

* Walker continues to tank in polls as Wisconsinites demand he compromise: A new poll released this weekend by a Wisconsin free market think tank, no less, finds that a majority of Wisconsin voters, 51 percent, oppose Walker's proposals, and 53 percent have an unfavorable view of the governor.

While the poll also finds a majority disapproves of the Dems' fleeing of the state, the key finding is that despite this, nearly two thirds, 65 percent, say Walker should compromise with Dems and unions. Sixty eight percent of independents want Walker to compromise, a number that is likely to resonate with Republican senators sticking by the Governor.

* Newsflash: Walker has already lost the war: Must read from Forbes's Rick Ungar on how Walker has already lost the broader war, even if he realizes his short-term collective bargaining objective, by reawakening blue collar voters' attachment to unions in rust belt states and undermining the GOP's broader objective of getting them to defect from Dems.

* Wisconsin Senate Republicans could end this standoff tomorrow: As Steve Benen notes, if three Senate Republicans cut themselves loose from the sinking Governor Walker, "they'd very likely be seen as sensible heroes, ending a divisive standoff, and allowing Madison to get back to work again."

* White House defends Muslims against Pete King's circus show: With Pete King's hearings into Muslim radicalization set for this week, White House deputy national security adviser Denis McDonough takes direct aim at their premise:

"The bottom line is this: When it comes to preventing violent extremism and terrorism in the United States, Muslim Americans are not part of the problem, you're part of the solution."

* But Pete King knows better: King keeps making the case that law enforcement officials do not "get the level of cooperation that they need" from American Muslims. It's going to be fun to watch his hearings fail miserably to support this claim.

* Mike Pence warns of government shutdown: This, from leading conservative GOP Rep. Mike Pence, seems a bit off message, given that the GOP argument has been that Dems are the only ones scare-mongering about a government shutdown:

"Nobody wants a government shutdown, but the American people are losing patience, and I'm losing patience."

* DSCC smacks Heather Wilson: With the former Congresswoman set to announce her candidacy for Jeff Bingaman's New Mexico Senate seat, the DSCC preempts with a video lampooning her with the reminder that she already lost a GOP Senate primary in 2008 after serving in Congress -- and being part of the Washington problem -- for nearly a decade.

Key takeaway: Romney thinks he has addressed the issue by pointing out that his plan, unlike Obama's, employed the mandate on the state level. But as Ayotte's comment shows, leading Republicans and conservatives won't be satisfied until he repudiates the mandate as a policy tool. Will Romney cut the Gordian Knot?

I realize she wasn't the point of that post about Romney, but it gives me a jumping-off point.

On the phone yesterday with my Republican, Obama-loathing parents (but to their credit they hate the Tea Party more), who lambasted me mercifully for voting for Hodes and Kuster, they are pretty concerned that Ayotte is clearly proving much farther right wing than promised (shocking, I know!), especially with the announcement that she will be joining Demint's extra-constitutional cabal.

The pendulum is swinging back. It could be a bumpy couple of election cycles.

Claw- Let's just assume that the 7 month pregnant Dem returns to Wisconsin to either have a check-up or to give birth, do you think she will be taken into custody, brought the capital and then a vote held? Do you think that would qualify as a victory?

As the polls referenced by Greg show, both sides are taking a hit on this issue, but I think the bigger take away will be a reawakening of the dem base and more of a national realization that the Republcians are waging a class war against the middle class.
There should be national ads showing all the money taken from schools in the budgets of countless republican governors along with the cuts given to corporations by the same governors. I think the ads would be very effective.

Oh please let her announce. I'll go to church and stand up and sit down and open the book to the hymn and everything.

Please, Sarah, twist that knife hard and yank it out and let the red Republican political krovvy flow

I haven't watched a TV since Reagan was in his first term, excepting only 9/11, but I'd tune in the (*chortle*) debates. She'd probably end up doing glossolalia (but Jake would still say she kicked his butt).

"Claw- Let's just assume that the 7 month pregnant Dem returns to Wisconsin to either have a check-up or to give birth, do you think she will be taken into custody, brought the capital and then a vote held? Do you think that would qualify as a victory? "

I am starting to think that Republicans are willing to go for broke with this issue. They are already pretty deep in it and victory might be painful now, but may also have huge ramifications down the road in their favor

There should be national ads showing all the money taken from schools in the budgets of countless republican governors along with the cuts given to corporations by the same governors. I think the ads would be very effective.

==

And also mention how much profit they're making and how little tax they pay anyway.

Right now too much populist angerbia directed at the educated. Redirecting it to the wealthy elite could change the whole equation, and Republicans are handing outmthe means to do just that.

On a serious note for Monday morning. I don't know how many of you got to see 60 Minutes last night.

The lead story was about the growing number of homeless children and children in poverty living around the nation. But the story was done here in Florida which literally breaks my heart.

And this is why folks like Cao, R&R (Ethan), Liam, and myself get so agitated with the righties who post here and go on rants.

I was responding to a post from Andy about the sorrow that story produced. Can ALL of you just stop for one moment and think what it's like to be a 5 or 6 year old tossed out of your foreclosed home. To have the DCF break up your family for placement. To see your father lose his job and go out onto the street with a sign...his 11 year old told CBS she was embarrassed, as was he. Fortunately that story has somewhat of a happy ending, a lady got the guy a job as a parking attendant at UCF. His family still lives in one room in a motel but at least the four of them get to remain together.

Seriously conservatives do you freaking have hearts? Do you have a SHRED of compassion? I'm being serious here not partisan. I don't give a cr6p about D's and R's this is genuine human suffering..do you not care?

Here is the response from one half of the HEARTLESS Bobbsey Twins..Q.B.

"Brilliant liberal logic. Rick Scott just took office, so homeless children are his fault. Never mind Obama."

He is so JADED, such a rigid ideologue that he views human suffering and comes back with that response. In addition to being heartless it shows his incredible ignorance.

"As an example, he points to Gov. Rick Scott's plan to cut $1 billion from Medicaid, which includes cutting services to the 39,000 adults who suffer from kidney failure, cancer, AIDS and other financially draining ailments, currently covered under the state's "medically needy" program."

Right...forget that the economic crash occured during Bush's Administration..a crash so severe that McCain interrupted his campaign...forget what Obama inherited FORGET THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REAL LIVE HUMAN BEINGS THAT ARE SUFFERING...
Let's try to score some more political points.

Q.B. to steal the line from "Social Network"..."I don't believe you're an arsehole but you work really hard at being one!"

Get your head of your rigid partisan arsehole and develop at least a scintilla of compassion. You and Scott are really approaching the point of simply being disgusting excuses for human beings!

Sorry for this rant but if you saw the story and lived less than 100 miles you'd understand!

I dunno, DDAWD, a few weeks ago I would have agreed. But a few weeks ago I never would have expected more than a few weak-kneed protests that fizzled after a day or two, instead they're gaining strength and the pressure on the me-too Republicans in WI is enough to make them calculate their position instead of falling on their swords.

Of all the issues to finally strike a nerve, I never would have guessed this one.

For you racists out there and you know who you are...the group of children interviewed reflected our population...whites in the majority with about 15% of the kids being black. This is no longer about race morons.
Not that it should have ever been!!!!!

Ruk, your heart is in the right place but if you're tryingnto appeal to the human decency of people (that's generous) like the Bobbseys, you're really not paying attention. These guys have nothing but contempt for compassion, they don't feel it AT ALL and regard claims of it by others to be pretense.

Recall what Troll wrote, giving it all away: ideals are for chumps.

Human decency, kindness, compassion, reciprocity, bah. Their world is Hieronymus Bosch's "Hay Wain." I honestly do think that these uh people are defective in some way, fundamentally subhuman, not on any continuum but wholly other.

Re-posted from Sunday's open thread this morning. I need to learn to wait for the morning plum.

This is pretty interesting and informative from McClatchy re public employee pensions. Once the economy rebounds, if they can keep the slash and burn cuts to a minimum, it's just not that big of a deal. Even CA has enough to pay out fully for over 15 years. IL and NJ have some of the worst problems because they conveniently sort of forgot to put the money in the kitty. Kentucky seems to have made the worst investments, they only have a little over 4 years.

"" Another misperception tied to the pension debate is that while the private sector has shed jobs during the economic crisis, state and local government employment has grown — and pensions along with it.

Since September 2008_ when state and local government employees numbered 19,385,000 and the economic crisis turned severe — the governments' payrolls shrunk by 407,000, to 18,978,000 this January, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data.

When calculating from December 2007_ the month that the National Bureau of Economic Research determined was the start of the Great Recession_ state and local government employment has fallen by 703,000 jobs amid a downturn that cost the nation more than 8 million jobs overall.""

"Of all the issues to finally strike a nerve, I never would have guessed this one."

Agreed Cao! I too am surprised that this was the straw. But I think national R's are beginning to see this as trouble as well.

And wait until their draconian cuts actually begin to add to the misery. And it won't simply be the less fortunate who are suffering.

Scott plans to cut ONE BILLION..why that's half as much as the losers "health care" corporation was fined for fraud..from Medicaid. We have a disproportionate Medicaid bill here in Florida because this is one of the states where many folks come to die..literaly. And when they end up in nursing homes that $8,000 monthly bill quickly eats up any life savings they put aside. And so..guess who picks up the tab...we Florida taxpayers.

And so what is the solution. Forbid anyone over the age of 40 to emigrate to our state? Throw the old farts out onto the street? Euthanize them? We're about to find out under our robber baron Guv.

Well, part of it is that people interact with public workers. Everyone interacts with teachers. That's why it's a very hard sell that teachers are lazy, corrupt monsters. Think about it. The only people on here who talk about the terrible teachers they've had are the Conservatives and that is more just a Conservative Thing than an actual assessment. How many lazy teachers do you all know?

It's much easier to demonize people like gays since a lot of people don't know any gay people. Everyone knows teachers.

And this whole idea of pitting middle class vs middle class just wasn't very well thought out to begin with.

Here is another canard that I read this morning, I wish I could remember where for the link..but..

Gov't pensions are not breaking the State's budgets. They represent 2.9% in one study and 3.5% in another study of State budgets.
Not only are they not breaking the state's budgets they are not overly generous compared to "private company" retirement funding..which also averages 3.5%..generally a matching contribution to a 401K

And the other canard is that the state pension plans are underfunded. Well in the sense that the Bush Recession crashed all of our 401K's it did the same to the holdings in those pension plans. But just as the stock market has rebounded since Obama took office and our personal 401K's are finally beginning to catch up once again so are the state's holdings.

But then that reflects R thinking doesn't it. Those of us without defined pensions who were shepherded into the 401K programs all took the brunt of the duplicitous Wall Street boys. They got bailed out while we all got stuck. And so there is a difference in State pensions and our 401K..
with state employees the Gov't is on the hook to bail them out as well as the banksters who caused this mess.

In R world...bail out the millionaires who caused the crisis..scriw the working folks.

Greg and Capehart are angry and bitter that there aren't any attractive, articulate women among the bloated legions of Michael Moore's union thug-huggers who now represent the vicious face of today's Democrat Party.

Ruk -- I'm slammed this morning and can't give your posting the time it deserves. don't want to sound trollish -- but the problems you are describing will not be solved through the political process or anti-poverty programs. i think those are stop-gap at best and are more likely to make politicians feel better about themselves than address any real problem. i also think that every time some pol makes a speech about how this or that program will solve poverty/homelessness etc, people take them at their word and think it's no longer their problem.

Q: why do we have foreign aid?
A: Because politicians like to have their pictures taken with poor kids in exotic locales (at taxpayer expense). makes for great dinner conversations.

Michele Bachmann is the best thing to happen to the Democratic Party. We need her out front bleating her ignorance. Unlike Palin who hides behind Facebook and Twitter, Michele actually goes on the Sunday shows to make a fool of herself...as well as David Gregory. He asked her a direct question which she never addressed..took the time to followup once more with that question..then let it go. Russert would have said...THIS is the question..are you going to answer it or not..and when more obfuscation was delivered he would have wrapped it up by saying...so you're not really prepared to answer THAT question.

It's no good arguing compassion, empathy, or even public policy that would mitigate the suffering of the people most affected by the "Great Recession" here. You cannot argue someone into it. You can only lead by example when people are in survival mode. That's what I'm picking up from a few of the people who post here. McWing's long post was very revealing I thought, but I don't think he's open to debate while protecting himself, his family and a few friends, a noble enterprise not without merit.

Some of us see the need for a collective response and others simply don't and regretfully many of them reside in the Democratic Party as well. It's a "privileged" bubble and not enough of us are saying "There but for the grace of God", classic denial and blame the victim instead.

"Walker seems to be holding out. And the state's Senate Democrats can't stay away forever. In this way, their efforts have been a very traditional filibuster: Not the 60-vote pocket veto we're used to, where the minority simply refuses to allow a majority vote, but the talk-a-thons of lore, in which a determined minority feel so strongly about their opposition to a bill that they mount a physically exhausting and politically dangerous stand against it, bringing all the other business currently facing the chamber to a halt in a desperate attempt to win the public over to their side. You can't do that forever, and you can't do it to often -- but then, nor should you be able to. The election went how it went, and after you make your case and appeal to the public and try and shame the majority, you either have the votes or you don't."

I disagree with him about the "filibuster with their feet" but I do agree it can't last forever. Hopefully, Sen. Lassa's OB/GYN is being tailed at least.

Yeah time for me to run as well but facts do not back up your assertion. Again you wish to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

There is waste and fraud in Gov't...wow..there is waste and fraud in the military...wow..and here's the newsflash for my righty friends..there is waste and fraud in free enterprise.

There ARE ways to structure relief that doesn't have to fall prey to scam artists.
There ARE programs that are tremendously beneficial for the less fortunate amongst us. Our taxes are at their LOWEST in over 50 years. The Corps have gamed the system so effectively many of them literally pay zero taxes.

We could and we should help these folks.
Rick Scott is worth a half billion. His "reported" income is 10 million a year.
He pays 15% of that in federal taxes. Florida has no income tax. And one of his first acts is to cut corporate taxes..we are already one of the five lowest states for business taxes...to 2.5% and eventually 0. He simultaneously plans to cut Medicaid by ONE BILLION.

I'm sorry NoVA...connect the dots..we live in a society controlled by heartless, greedy, oligarchs. Scott is but one example.

“A federal judge sentenced Muslim activist Abdurahman Alamoudi to the maximum 23-year prison term for illegal dealings with Libya that included his involvement in a complex plot to kill the Saudi ruler.”

Kaddafi’s blood debt to The House of Saud is overdue.

They will soon collect in full.

Step 1: Greenlight the $audis to put a bounty on Q’s head.

Step 2: Watch mercs climb over each other to mount Q’s head on a pike.

Palin is still the Tea Party queen. She commands far more attention than Bachman. Bachman is the more intellectual version of Palin. (yeah, Bachman is actually the more intellectual version of someone).

It's like Paul Ryan and George Bush. The two have the exact same policies, but Ryan uses bigger words and graphs and stuff while Bush uses his entire brain to muddle through a three syllable word.

Why would I look that up. No one has accused you of being bi-polar...simply heartless.

You lay in the weeds waiting to jump someone with your snark...you post nothing of a positive nature...no hope for the future...simply your same selfish negative mantra. You have NEVER mentioned anything about mitigating the suffering going on...you have NO problem with the massive transfer of wealth from the middle class to the wealthiest amongst us...but you're a derivatives trader who has worked in Europe and so perhaps you are in that top 2% which of course would explain a lot now wouldn't it?

"It's no good arguing compassion, empathy, or even public policy that would mitigate the suffering of the people most affected by the "Great Recession" here. "

The best debates are among those who are arguing in favor of the same values. Non-Conservatives here are basically coming from the same place - the long term well being of the country and the population within. The Conservatives on here are parrots to the talking head Conservatives on cable TV who are more out for self-enrichment. So if you are trying to debate those who are more interested in the enrichment of the upper class, then yeah, it's difficult since your ultimate goal is much different.

In 1934, several years into the Great Depression, about fifteen thousand WWI veterans marched on Washington to demand the bonus that was to be paid in 1945. They camped out near the White House for months. Congress finally voted against the early bonus. Still the protesters marched and refused to leave. Finally, the army was called in and drove the protesters from their pitiful camp into the Maryland countryside, wielding drawn sabers and carrying tear-gas canisters.

No event staged for the benefit of public opinion could have seemed more cruel.

When Franklin Roosevelt, the Democratic presidential candidate, heard about the rout of the veterans, he grinned and said to his adviser, Felix Frankfurter, "Well, Felix, this will elect me."

Read more: Bonus army march on washington - Herbert Hoover - war http://www.presidentprofiles.com/Grant-Eisenhower/Herbert-Hoover-Bonus-army-march-on-washington.html#ixzz1Fva45ehv

Sat. night over several posts. And agree re insults, I just don't see the benefit, but then I also don't post as often as I used to because I'm either missing the point or no longer understand the point. Occasionally something informative and educational comes through the comment section, but if you're looking for pure entertainment value, it sucks, IMO.

Scott, when you refuse to accomodate facts, there's not much else to say about a person other than that they are a ____________.

Your comments never even attempt to address the facts, so it is nearly impossible to have an intellectually honest dialog with you.

I posted an article in Bloomberg about how the USA is NOT "Broke". So why don't you go ahead and use facts to prove that we are, indeed, broke. And in using those facts, show us why the facts in the Bloomberg article are incorrect.

You cant rebut it because the article is factual. The FACTS dictate the situation and you can't invent facts that disprove the facts in the article. So, what do you say, is the federal government broke? If no, then that's in direct opposition to everything the GOP has worked for the last two years (building the impression that America is "broke"). If yes, then congratulations on being honest on this issue, but again, you would be going against YOUR party's rhetoric.

A new Wisconsin Policy Research Institute poll shows President Obama's and Gov. Scott Walker's approval ratings heading in opposite directions.

Obama's approval rating sits at a comfortable 53% to 42%, a nine-point improvement from last November. By contrast, Walker's approval rating is upside down -- with 43% approving and 53% disapproving, an 18 point increase in his negative rating over the same period.

First Read: "Over the weekend, liberal filmmaker Michael Moore said the fight in Wisconsin has 'aroused a sleeping giant' for union rights across the country. But the fight may have aroused a different 'sleeping giant' -- the activist Wisconsin electorate, which was dormant in the 2010 midterms."

lmsinca, with regard to the "but there for the grace of God idea," I posted this on yesterday's thread and am posting it again because the idea has stayed with me:

lmsinca writes, "I remain stymied though at how difficult it is for us to attempt to walk a mile in someone elses shoes."

I know this isn't a comment waiting for an answer, but I'll say this much. Some people have that kind of empathy and some don't. And that is one of the reasons we have politics--so the arguments of empathy can enter the wider dialogue and, over time, affect policy. We, for instance, get rid of slavery.

Madison may be an example of people not getting things until they and
their neighbors are directly affected. And this becomes another kind of situation where we need the methods of politics to orchestrate change.

"lmsinca writes, "I remain stymied though at how difficult it is for us to attempt to walk a mile in someone elses shoes.""

That reminds me of an interesting article in Yahoo News I think on Friday on a study about how CEO's pay women higher salaries when they have a daughter. Just goes to show how thick-headed and stubborn people can be until they are forced to expand their minds.

"""Shortly after the CEOs had daughters, the women’s wages at their companies began to rise relative to men’s, shrinking the wage gap."""

More fascinating research findings and links to the study at the article:

I think a similar example is Dana Milbank and his recent troubles with mortgage companies. Amazing how quickly the meme of "I never knew it was this bad" or "Nobody could have seen this coming" can change with a little first-hand experience.

I agree re the politics of change and also only when enough people are actually confronted with the need for change through personal experience will we cross that line. I'm hopeful we're getting there. I also think a lot about the notion of personal responsibility versus collective responsibility, they're not opposite sides of the same coin. They co-exist individually and in society.

""Are you saying that the GOP is either blatantly wrong or intentionally misleading America?""

Neither. Or, at least, I'd have to see the context of a specific claim to make a real judgment. But in general I think that saying that the country is "broke" is simple political hyperbole. Pretty much like saying things like "the ENTIRE Republican party" is saying something to which one objects.

(I am a part of the Republican party, and I am not saying the country is broke. So does that make you "blatantly wrong or intentionally misleading" regarding what the "ENTIRE Republican party" is saying? Or, perhaps, just guilty of a bit of hyperbole?)

"I also think a lot about the notion of personal responsibility versus collective responsibility, they're not opposite sides of the same coin. They co-exist individually and in society."

I too have given that much thought recently.
IMO the R's are seriously overplaying their hand. And pushing the pendulum too far to the right may result in a swing that is farther left than even we progressives wish. I do not wish to denigrate personal responsibility. But I do not see "collective responsibility" always coming at the sacrifice of "personal responsiblity." Sometimes there is nothing more "personally" responsible than helping your fellow man.

I think what you are discussing is about balance and our nation has become unbalanced as seen statistically in the shift of wealth from the middle class to the wealthiest amongst us. I was chatting with a very wealthy friend and while commiserating about the loss of 40% of net worth right at retirement time, I also pointed out that my wife and I are among the fortunate. He quickly agreed telling me of friends of his used to earning 150-300,000 dollars out of work, who have spent ALL of their 401K'. These folks are in their mid 40's to mid 50's...prime Republican material. But as the misery works it's way up from the poorest to the middle class and now to the upper middle class there is a real populist explosion waiting to be ignited. Wisconsin my be the lighting of the fuse.

I do agree that personal experience is the best motivator for this political action you and ABC have talked about, but for me personally it's been the experience of seeing what has happened to our employees and what they are going through...their kids in schools that are already underfunded..soon to have Scott slash another 10%..our teachers rank 47th in pay...as I've shared before and personally with Cao...one of the things that keeps my spirit up after the daily dose of conservative lunacy on this site...I don't have TB but I am learning to skip more and more posters :-)...is listening to that Sam Cooke classic "A Change is Going to Come." If a black man could write that song in the mid 60's a time when police in the South literally conspired with the KKK in an attempt to keep "segregation, today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever"
and still maintain a sense of optimism...well I feel the need to retain some optimism myself...although it's sometimes difficult in a sea of negativity, it's posters like you and shrink and R&R and Liam..well the list is too long but I appreciate all of your thoughts. I find ABC's thesis that you either have empathy or you don't fascinating. I don't really know whether I agree or disagree...I'll have to give it some thought and come back later with that one.

"""(I am a part of the Republican party, and I am not saying the country is broke. So does that make you "blatantly wrong or intentionally misleading" regarding what the "ENTIRE Republican party" is saying? Or, perhaps, just guilty of a bit of hyperbole?)"""

Okay, point taken.

But you are willing to acknowledge that the top leadership of the GOP has repeatedly stated that "We are broke"...

Does it bother you knowing that they are wrong?

Are you willing to admit that when the leadership and many rank and file members of the Republican Party are using rhetoric that is proven false, it is indicative of a coordinated attempt to mislead Americans?

@ruk: "You and Scott are really approaching the point of simply being disgusting excuses for human beings!"

Well, I'm sure that opened their hearts and minds. Good job!

"IMO the R's are seriously overplaying their hand. And pushing the pendulum too far to the right may result in a swing that is farther left than even we progressives wish."

I'm dubious, although keep in mind--everything is on it's own pendulum. It's not like everything goes the same distance at the same speed--we can get tax hikes, and gay marriage, but having nothing done about arguably more important things, such as prison time for non-violent criminals, the War on Drugs or drug legalization (especially in regards to medical marijuana), etc. And vice-versa. But it is the nature of ideologues and partisans to overplay their hands.

(I am a part of the Republican party, and I am not saying the country is broke. So does that make you "blatantly wrong or intentionally misleading" regarding what the "ENTIRE Republican party" is saying? Or, perhaps, just guilty of a bit of hyperbole?)

==

Neither. Your response falls squarely under the heading of "bullsh*t equivocation." Perhaps you lack the intelligence to deal with anything nutmegs most painfully literal statements, but this is emphatically at odds with your oft-observed compulsivity about moving discussions away from specifics and into generalities so vague as to not actually "about" anything.

So I'm agreeing with DDAWD that you are deeply and reflexively dishonest.

And it's a shame others didn't recognize your snark about "printing money" as the Conservative BS what it was.

RUK: "personal responsibility" is Conservative dog-whistle for what we can refer to in shorthand as heartlessness. Obviously they don't mean it. Just look at which states pay more into government and which ones take more out.

1.) That I would EVER attempt to open or change Scott or Q.B.'s minds. They are both completely close minded ideologues who have NEVER admitted to a mistake. They remind me of that ole Mac Davis song...are you old enough to remember Mac Davis Kevin? :-) One of his minor hits was a ditty that went..."It's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way."
Perhaps he knew Scott and Q.B. although their type is a dime a dozen and have been around for a long long time.

2.) Open their hearts...THEIR HEARTS..LMAO
They have yet to post the first item that would indicate either might actually possess a heart.

I largely agree with the rest of your post Kev..especially...

"But it is the nature of ideologues and partisans to overplay their hands."

Which is my concern. I readily concede the left has it's own ideologues and partisans and if given the chance will probably overplay their hands as well.
Once upon a time there was a far left...don't know what happened to them...they certainly don't get the pub they used to...but I suspect they're still out there waiting for an opportunity.

@cao: "Of all the issues to finally strike a nerve, I never would have guessed this one."

I don't think it's just the issue, I think the how and the who makes a big difference.

If the WI teacher's union hadn't already made all the actual financial compromises that Walker asked for, I think it might play differently. If he hadn't take a particular prank phone call, if he was making his argument better, if they weren't trying to steam roll the senate Democrats and kick protestors out of the capital building . . . it would play differently. I think it's probably a "tipping point" situation, where if it was just trying to remove collective bargaining rights from public sector unions, it might not be such a flash point (not to mention weak point). But given everything else, even his friends are beginning to have assorted crises of faith.

I'm thinking of various comedy sketches I've seen throughout the years, where a leader of some kind is yelling patriotic or "yay, us!" type phrases, and everybody is cheering with them. And then the things they are saying get increasing more and more bizarre, until everybody in the crowd is clearly wondering what lunatic they were cheering along with. Scott Walker is kinda in a real-world version of that. He still has lots of folks cheering him, but even some of the folks that were very laudatory of Walker at the outset are hedging their bets now.

"Maybe this wasn't the time or place to tackle this very important battle . . . " is the sorta thing.

"I think it's probably a "tipping point" situation, where if it was just trying to remove collective bargaining rights from public sector unions, it might not be such a flash point (not to mention weak point)."

As a link above points out, several states (11 I believe), have already removed collective bargaining for public unions. I didn't even know that, so it must not have been that big of a deal when that happened. It does seem like there has been a perfect policial storm of sorts.

@ruk: "They have yet to post the first item that would indicate either might actually possess a heart."

Ruk, you bitter cynic! You are entitled to your opinion, but I'm just gonna tell ya: because someone, in one forum, where they spend a tiny fraction of their life, does not wear their hearts on their sleeves . . . doesn't mean they do not have heart. You might as well be speculating on the color of their underwear (although, I cite that as an example, not an invitation).

"...but I suspect they're still out there waiting for an opportunity."

Or simply uninspired. Tea party folks and John Birchers and Beck Conspiracy Theorists were always there, just not particularly excited. Then, events and people get them excited, they get together in a group and get really excited, and then like irate soccer fans they go to vandalized the stadium of bloated government.

But there are "movement" people who can swing on a pretty broad ideological spectrum, if there is an exciting movement (and opportunity to protest) available, there are people who are kinda liberal or kinda conservative than can be swept up in movements that tend to make their viewpoints, and expression of them, more extreme . . .

But the swings is how we tend to balance. We tend to move towards "extremes" (in a non-pejorative sense), as can be seen just from the mix of individuals here. In a battle between the two extremes, neither side is likely to get everything they want for very long. Which ends up with the most moderate result practically possible, even though it rarely feels that way (thus, why both sides complaining about how much the other side gets done, why partisans on both sides complain about their party rolling over and giving away the store to the other party, every time there's the most modest compromise, etc). It's how we is wired!

Ruk, you bitter cynic! You are entitled to your opinion, but I'm just gonna tell ya: because someone, in one forum, where they spend a tiny fraction of their life, does not wear their hearts on their sleeves . . . doesn't mean they do not have heart. You might as well be speculating on the color of their underwear (although, I cite that as an example, not an invitation).

==

Problem is .. In Scott's case it isn't an occasional comment being inflated into the totality of character .. it's a long chain of well-worn arguments, deeply held convictions, and, most revealingly, a pattern of accompanying evasions. Get Scott on any topic around governments role in helping people and he starts to sound exactly like some penitentiary lifer with a long and carefully worded justification about why his crimes are society's fault, not his ... reflected in a mirror.

Scott is not only indifferent tot the human suffering that would result from his abhorrent ideas ... he is fanatically, studiously indifferent.

His evasions are obviously the result of years of practice, dishonesty running so deep as to be isolated and with not a single point of contact with reality.

I would be more bothered if they were right and we were indeed broke. Wouldn't you?

But, more seriously, not really. Or at least no more than when Obama says things like ACA will reduce the deficit. Politicians bend the truth and/or exaggerate all the time.

""Are you willing to admit that when the leadership and many rank and file members of the Republican Party are using rhetoric that is proven false, it is indicative of a coordinated attempt to mislead Americans?""

I don't know about "coordinated". In poliltics false memes get perpetuated all the time, and I don't think it necessarily requires some conspiratorial coordination.

"but I'm just gonna tell ya: because someone, in one forum, where they spend a tiny fraction of their life, does not wear their hearts on their sleeves . . . doesn't mean they do not have heart. You might as well be speculating on the color of their underwear"

Yes indeed not on their sleeves and nowhere in sight...but perhaps you have hit on it...it's in their underwear. :-)

Actually I think that is a problem for many posters here they think with what's in their underwear rather than what's between their ears...yeah "Bring it on.".

Even if the 14 Democrats return now and the vote goes against us middle class Wisconsinites and in favor of our Republican party, the Democrats are still heroes. Without them, we wouldn't know what is in the bill. They cannot all be recalled, nor will they be. They are heroes.

But there are "movement" people who can swing on a pretty broad ideological spectrum, if there is an exciting movement (and opportunity to protest) available, there are people who are kinda liberal or kinda conservative than can be swept up in movements that tend to make their viewpoints, and expression of them, more extreme . . .

------------------------------------------

And there are personal experiences that often fuel personal beliefs (even if those experiences aren't particuarly widespread) or that add fuel to an alrady burning fire.

Look at the movie American History X to see that sort of story (not saying Republcians are racist, well except Kevin). It often takes a long time for those personal experiences to be overriden by outside sources and additional knowledge and experiences.

People have held negative views of the government for many years now. To some it was the Iraq War, others losing a job, others the hemorrhaging of home values etc, but regardless of the specifics, they don't like government. These weren't abstract events like a a lying Senator or philandering Congressman, it was their job that was lost, their house foreclosed on, their neighbor who died in Iraq. Given this, is it surprising that the Republican message of less government has been very popular?

If one of us had said what you said about Obama and the ACA, the righties here would have called for our heads, and you know it. If we had said something like, "yeah but what's a little stretching of the truth? Both sides do it." Can you imagine? We wouldn't hear the end of it. Literally. But now it's okay for you to just brush aside what GOP leadership has said repeatedly and against the facts? You can't have it both ways.

"""In poliltics false memes get perpetuated all the time, and I don't think it necessarily requires some conspiratorial coordination."""

Also Paul Ryan, Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin... Who knows how many others...

When these GOP leaders all use the same false terminology within a few weeks of each other, do you honestly think it isn't coordinated? Do you think that the RGA and the GOP caucus in the House have NOT coordinated their message on these matters? Honestly? Yes/no? What do YOU think?

This is just one example out of hundreds of conservations with you that have gone nowhere due to your penchant for soft-pedaling and obfuscating when you know you are wrong. It's always just chalked up to politics -- the old "both sides do it" meme -- when your side is blatantly wrong.

Why is it that you will never admit that while, yes, both sides DO stretch the truth on occasion, why can you not take a stand against the GOP on THIS occasion, the occasion about which you were asked a specific question?

Any thoughts ScottC?

Are you ready to take a position AGAINST the GOP's use of misleading rhetoric suggesting improperly that the country or certain states are "broke"?

Are you ready to take a stand on something specific that the GOP has said repeatedly, regardless of whether or not the Democrats rhetorically do the same thing?

The GOP lack of a frontrunner is very unusual. "In Gallup polling since 1952, Republican Party nomination races always featured a clear front-runner at this stage of the campaign, and in almost all cases, that front-runner ultimately won the nomination."

"If the race remains close throughout 2011, it may also create unfamiliar political and fundraising dynamics for the national party."

Who really wants to be the sacrificial lamb.
Chistie and Rubio are the only plausible candidates but both of them are too smart to take the beating the R's have scheduled for '12.

The R's have always faced an uphill battle to regain the W.H. They have fewer registered voters. They alienated large blocks of voters..Hispanics..Blacks...Gays
And when and if the young vote shows up it's a real debacle for the R's.

Now adding to their problems are the right wing nuts they've unleashed upon the land.
They're going to have to go some to get rid of "I am not a witch" "2nd Amendment Solutions" and yesterday Michele Bachmann's yammering about Obama being anti-American and running a "gangster government". That is extreme even for conservatives and it makes the Indy's want to puke.

And now all the demonization of Obama is backfiring. People have had time to watch him in the W.H. He's not a terrorist...not palling around with them...Michelle has been an elegant First Lady with a legitimate cause in childhood obesity...the two kids have been photogenic...let me put it to you this way 12Bar..would you want to run against Obama?

Most of the current R's are losers with the possible exception of Mitch Daniels.
Gingrich is just trying to make some more money..he doesn't have a chance..ditto for the Huckster..ditto for Palin...and Mittens...I actually feel sorry for him..in a different time...with a different R party of say 40 years ago, he might have had a chance. But R no longer stands for Republican...it stands for Rabid Right wing.

While I don't disagree that the GOP candidate will be a sacrificial lamb, the point that Gallup is making is that for the first time in 50 years, there is no frontrunner. Goldwater lead his nearest GOP competitor by 26 points. Papa Bush lead Bob Dole by 19 points. John McCain lead Giuliani by 17 points. They all won the nomination, but lost in the General Election.

Right now, Huckabee, Palin and Romney are in a three way tie. That hasn't happened for fifty years per Gallup.

______________
Really? And where do you get your news? The Scott Walker Gazette? The Land of Nod Times? I don't think so. People who never bothered or cared about unions are joining this protest because they see what this is all about -- a return to poor wages for the middle class by those who pay people like Walker good money to keep up the cause. Not to worry though -- once the union is gone, all of those jobs are going to China, India and everywhere else anyway. I hope you enjoy paying their share of property taxes, school taxes and all other manner of tax that will go towards supporting these people when they become unemployed. I wonder who will hear your complaints then?

rukidding7, I did see the story. And you'll see more of that in Wisconsin if the governor has his way. But these pollyanna Repubs don't see things the way you do. Their heartstrings aren't pulled because as far as they are concerned, being homeless is singularly the product of buying a house you couldn't afford and enjoying the dole so much that you don't have the incentive to look for work. While the homelessness isn't limited to liberals or non-Republican families, too many Republicans in this situation have bought into this and don't have guts to vote for their own self interest. I think Wisconsin will change that.

""If one of us had said what you said about Obama and the ACA, the righties here would have called for our heads, and you know it. If we had said something like, "yeah but what's a little stretching of the truth? Both sides do it." ""

I can't speak for other "righties", but I wouldn't call for you head. In fact, I would welcome an admission from any of you guys that, in terms of political strategy and tactics, there isn't much difference between the parties...politicians are politicians. There is an all-to-common belief amongst many on the left here that R's are somehow unique (and uniquely evil) in their methods of advancing their political interests.

""You can't have it both ways.""

I'm not trying to have anything both ways. You should listen to what I actually say, rather than attributing to me what you think "the right" would say in some hypothetical situation. If I ever start arguing that Obama's deceptions are somehow unique and something the R's would never engage in, then you can accuse me of trying to have it "both ways". Until then, you are arguing against nothing but your imagination.

""This is just one example out of hundreds of conservations with you that have gone nowhere due to your penchant for soft-pedaling and obfuscating when you know you are wrong.""

How bizarre. First of all, you asked whether something "bothered" me. How can I be "wrong" about the fact that it doesn't?

Second, I never addressed your original post (from 9:12am). I had no particular interest in engaging you on the subject, and did so only out of courtesy, at your request. You specifically chased me up and asked me for my thoughts, so I responded. Why in the world would you deliberately try to engage with me if you believe that conversations with me "go nowhere" and that I "obfuscate"? I don't get it. If you think that conversation with me "goes nowhere" it seems inexplicable that you would go out of your way to initiate a conversation with me. And even now, you continue to ask me for my thoughts, despite this proclamation.

Very weird.

""why can you not take a stand against the GOP on THIS occasion, the occasion about which you were asked a specific question?""

What "stand" do you want me to take? You asked me if I agreed that the federal government is "broke", and I said no. You want me to be as outraged as you are at the use of the term? Sorry, it just doesn't bother me that much, for reasons I stated.

Ruk, your heart is in the right place but if you're tryingnto appeal to the human decency of people (that's generous) like the Bobbseys, you're really not paying attention. These guys have nothing but contempt for compassion, they don't feel it AT ALL and regard claims of it by others to be pretense.

Recall what Troll wrote, giving it all away: ideals are for chumps.

Human decency, kindness, compassion, reciprocity, bah. Their world is Hieronymus Bosch's "Hay Wain." I honestly do think that these uh people are defective in some way, fundamentally subhuman, not on any continuum but wholly other.

Posted by: caothien9 | March 7, 2011 9:36 AM | Report abuse

___________________
Yes, and they like to refer to themselves as "Christians."

I clearly meant the position your party has taken. Yet another attempt at obfuscation. You are truly a master of finding rhetorical flaws in every comment, yet despite this talent of yours, you cannot or will not use the same surgical care over rhetoric when asked to defend glaring rhetorical flaws in your own party.

It bothers you when I confront you on this issue, but it would never bother you that Republicans have clearly been repeating the "government is broke" meme.

"""Why in the world would you deliberately try to engage with me if you believe that conversations with me "go nowhere" and that I "obfuscate"? I don't get it."""

No. You DON'T get it. My purpose was to expose what a fraud you are. The perfect example is that you refuse to acknowledge that there is a coordinated message in the GOP that "the country is broke," and then when I ask you SPECIFICALLY about that, you ignore my question.

I said:

"""Do you think that the RGA and the GOP caucus in the House have NOT coordinated their message on these matters? Honestly? Yes/no? What do YOU think?"""

So?

Did the RGA and GOP caucus coordinate this message? Is it just a coincidence that all of the leaders in the GOP are suggesting the same thing concurrently?

What do YOU think?

Are they? Are they not?

What do you think about that and why, specifically, do you hold that view?

"""You ask me questions in bad faith, pretending to be interested in what I think, and I'm the fraud? How odd. """

Yes. You are a fraud.

You ask me why I ask you the questions I asked and I gave you the real answer, without sugar-coating it. I was attempting to expose your answers as fraudulent and intellectually dishonest. I succeeded.

You, on the other hand, obfuscate and deflect and respond with generalizations. When asked specifically about a topic, you don't answer my specific questions at all. Just "WAH, I'm taking my ball and I'm going home."

YOU are indisputably a FRAUD!

You are indisputably unable to carry on an adult conversation because you are an intellectually dishonest person.

Hello people of WI are you tired of paying so much in taxes and having your children receive such a poor education? There are two days a year the first is like the second Monday of the first semester and the second day is in the second semester. It is on these two days that a official count of students is made. The amount of your tax dollars that go to your school is decided by this count! Want to send the fat cat unions a little message? Just keep your kids home those two days! One year of this would bring them crawling on their knees to you begging to do what ever you want. Which is the way it should be right now! Just this idea will scare the heck out of most of them. Left or Right screw them both take control of your own taxes and how they are spent on your children's education. Think any of the Flee Fourteen care? As always you can contact me at work http://www.bestmichiganbusinesses.com and yes keep those jokes coming. This is truly class warfare!! Those who care about America, vs the organized crime union some still call the Democratic party.

Another democrap lie --Did you see Sebelius in a committe hearing on TV admitting that the obami adm DOUBLE COUNTED the $500 BILLION re obami health care, I guess so the CBO would give a favorable report. This is the most dishonest, lying administration in my lifetime.

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