The trouble I find often with these discussions is the polarized nature of the discussion. Both sides seem to claim "child abuse" on the part of the other side. The mothering.com folks gasp that we're vaxing, the moms at the playgroup think I'm nuts that we don't just follow the NHS schedule.

This is the only safe place I have found online to be vegan and pro vaccination, so I personally am very thankful for this thread.

In the preceeding discussion, it seems people got off track. The CPS recommendation was regarding an infant at a pox party and was not generally against anti vaccination peeps. Then it turned into something else. Anyway, I don't think I would call CPS myself, but I think if they thought in good faith that it was neglect, they should call. It is NOT about judging they should have their kids taken away, but protecting kids. It is the job of CPS to make those determinations and if they are doing their job right, it is supposed to be about the best interest of the kids, which usually means keeping families together. I have had to call CPS before and in all cases, nobody was taken away from their families, but issues that needed to be looked into were looked into.

What Kimba said. I also just consulted with my mother, who's a clinical psychologist and has worked with the agency-formerly-known-as-DYFS (now apparently DCP&P, "CPS" to you non-Jerseyans) on many occasions, communicating concerns directly, testifying on the state's behalf, and testifying on behalf of families engaged with DYFS. (My mother also raised children in the era of chicken pox parties and even if she felt they made sense then when there was no way to avoid chicken pox and you might as well get it over with, she doesn't think they make sense now, and definitely thinks it's negligent to bring an infant to one in any case.) I just threw this story out as a hypothetical and her first response was: 1) did the friend (Tofulish) strongly encourage them not to bring an infant? and 2) having done that, did she call DCP&P to ask for advice? She reminded me that it's fairly easy to call DCP&P with an anonymous hypothetical (like, "my friend is planning X, do you think that's cause for concern?") - it allows them to ignore it if they don't think it's a legitimate concern and ask for more info if they think it is. Also, you can call, talk it out with them, and then hang up and think about whether you want to call back and give them identifying information.

She also agreed with me that this is very much their job and that their primary goal is to help parents be better parents and keep families healthy and intact, not just to respond to issues of extreme abuse. I just don't think it's as inflammatory a suggestion to call them as some people here do.

I do think it's really an abject failure of our parenting communities that people think it's not appropriate to question other people's parenting choices when they seem really misguided. Isn't that part of the point of having friends in the first place? Is it really that important to be so super tolerant of other people's parenting "choices" that we don't voice concerns to them when they're doing something really messed up with their kids?

I got the flu shot at the same time I do every year. I work with kids and old people, so I get a shot every year. I had the flu two years in a row (once with pneumonia - fun!) before starting to get the shot and have never had it since, so I guess they're guessing correctly about which strains I'll be exposed to!

I didn't get pertussis because I had gotten a booster when I worked in a health care setting a few years ago. I did convince my husband to get a booster after Malka was born, which took a little work. I've also convinced him to get a flu shot the past two years. Malka's gotten her first year flu shots and we'll probably continue to give her them - I just bring too much crepe home and once she's in daycare/school she'll be exposed to a lot, so I'd feel more comfortable doing that.

The differences between countries are interesting. I was vaccinated against TB as a child (BCG vaccine), it was compulsory in France at the time. This makes my life rather complicated in countries where TB vaccination isn't the norm. Every time I have to get a skin test, it come back positive (obviously, I have the antibodies since I am immunized! In fact, that's how they used to check our immunity was still good - kids would have skin tests done every year or so, and get a BCG booster if it came back negative.) This means I am on the receiving end of way too many unnecessary chest x-rays.

I don't know what will happen when we have children, but with the public health policies of 3+ countries involved I can only imagine it will be a glorious mess.

The differences between countries are interesting. I was vaccinated against TB as a child (BCG vaccine), it was compulsory in France at the time. This makes my life rather complicated in countries where TB vaccination isn't the norm. Every time I have to get a skin test, it come back positive (obviously, I have the antibodies since I am immunized! In fact, that's how they used to check our immunity was still good - kids would have skin tests done every year or so, and get a BCG booster if it came back negative.) This means I am on the receiving end of way too many unnecessary chest x-rays.

I had a friend who was found in a dumpster in Korea, dying of TB when she was a baby. She is in America now (she was adopted) and goes through a big kerfluffle every time she has to take a TB test.

I do think it's really an abject failure of our parenting communities that people think it's not appropriate to question other people's parenting choices when they seem really misguided. Isn't that part of the point of having friends in the first place? Is it really that important to be so super tolerant of other people's parenting "choices" that we don't voice concerns to them when they're doing something really messed up with their kids?

I see a huge difference between questioning other people's choices and calling CPS.

I came here because I wanted to brainstorm ideas with a group of people I like and respect who are generally very educated and accepting. To be honest the issue I grapple with most isn't the abuse or neglect issue, but the public health piece. I am having conversations in the group (and the infant piece has now been addressed), because I do think there are issues here with exposing your child to a virus and then taking them out in the world among people who may not want to be infected with that virus. If people going to these parties have older children, you are risking getting others sick, even those who have had the vax and certainly those who can't be vaccinated for whatever reason. I also generally I try not to worry too much about what L is exposed to (even though whenever I see a kid with a runny nose, I have a moment of worry :) ). But personally, I wouldn't like to have my child exposed to Varicella and I do have concerns about going to playdates with people in the group at this point. I think everyone intends to be respectful and in communication if their kids have been exposed to something, but its easy to forget. Your choice to get your child sick shouldn't mean making that decision for others around you, who haven't consented.

And I agree with this:

kimba wrote:

This is the only safe place I have found online to be vegan and pro vaccination, so I personally am very thankful for this thread.

But I would also like this to be a space where we can discuss why people choose to vax or not vax reasonably and civilly, without dismissing one group as ignorant, misguided faith healers. I would like to bounce things that I am hearing in anti-vax spaces off people who and intelligent, educated and able to help me evaluate and process them, so that I can make the best choices for Leela.

Leela gets her vaccines on the regular CDC schedule, and at very least, this branch of the thread has made me more eager to get the Varicella shot, because I am now nervous about her being exposed to it.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

I think the idea was that if you didn't get chicken pox when you were a kid, then you'd get shingles as an adult and shingles is deadly. I believe though that if you ever had chicken pox, like 90% of us ~30 or older, then you still have a chance to get shingles as it lives on in your nervous system but not as a result of infection but stress and other issues. From my understanding though that the varicella vaccine is much, much safer as your likeliness of getting chicken pox and it embedding itself in your nervous system is reduced greatly.

If I had a kid, I would definitely get the vaccine vs the infection route.

_________________You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.

Tofulish, you can control exposure with play dates now by talking to parents, but once Leela is in school, you no longer have any control, input, or knowledge on what she may be exposed to. Unvaxed kids with exemptions are there in class and you just have to hope that those kids don't get sick, don't travel and bring stuff back, and hope that if someone does get sick you are notified ansncanntake preventive measures.

_________________"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk

The differences between countries are interesting. I was vaccinated against TB as a child (BCG vaccine), it was compulsory in France at the time. This makes my life rather complicated in countries where TB vaccination isn't the norm. Every time I have to get a skin test, it come back positive (obviously, I have the antibodies since I am immunized! In fact, that's how they used to check our immunity was still good - kids would have skin tests done every year or so, and get a BCG booster if it came back negative.) This means I am on the receiving end of way too many unnecessary chest x-rays.

I don't know what will happen when we have children, but with the public health policies of 3+ countries involved I can only imagine it will be a glorious mess.

I have a friend from Mexico who has the same situation: vaccination was normal there, but she works in the healthcare field in the US where it's a pain in the butt to have had the vax. She's young (25-ish?) too, so this is a pretty recent difference.

I am really glad the infant situation has been resolved. My assumption had been that people had been spoken to and were continuing to push forward with this, frankly, totally stupid plan. I understand that you respect people in this group and think they are educated and well-informed, but even in my short time interacting with them, there was a lot of faith-based healing being thrown around (homeopathy, for example) and extremely little critique of that going on. The information being thrown around even around totally minor things was extremely distressing and there was a lot of hive mind going on around the couple of people who spoke misinformation the loudest.

And yes, there is a difference between critiquing other people's parenting choices and calling CPS - if you do the first well enough, you hopefully don't have to do the second!

And again, this was a conversation about exposing an infant to chickenpox on purpose. It wasn't a conversation about vaccinated vs. not vaccinated children in general. And I know moderators may disagree, but it's okay for a conversation to not always be totally calm and composed. If something is important, it's worth having passionate conversation about.

Personally, I think that shouting people down tends to stifle conversation, not encourage it. I know you had a hard time with the group, and I thought it was problematic that you were shouted down when you made your suggestions.

That said, I am still looking into a lot of these issues and am talking to our ped about it. The Varicella vax hasn't been around for very long and its hard to know what the impact on shingles is. On the other group, someone mentioned that there have been cases of pediatric shingles linked to the vax, which would be quite concerning. My internet is down, and I'm on my phone, or I'd research the heck out of that claim.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

I think the idea was that if you didn't get chicken pox when you were a kid, then you'd get shingles as an adult and shingles is deadly. I believe though that if you ever had chicken pox, like 90% of us ~30 or older, then you still have a chance to get shingles as it lives on in your nervous system but not as a result of infection but stress and other issues. From my understanding though that the varicella vaccine is much, much safer as your likeliness of getting chicken pox and it embedding itself in your nervous system is reduced greatly.

Do you have sources for this? Because I hear so much stuff, and the Varicella vax is pretty new and it is unclear how long immunity is conferred for. I would be particularly interested in the claim that the likelyhood of having the virus in your nervous system is reduced.

I had heard (in this thread on an earlier page) that infection confers a lifelong immunity and that the Varicella vax won't prevent shingles or reduce your chances of getting it. I think there is a separate shingles vax.

Again, I wish I had internet on my computer and not just my phone!

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

In Canada our regular vaccinations are free through the family doctor or public health clinics/nurses, so there is likely a difference in stats vs. the U.S.

Many of my friends have not vaccinated their children or only vaccinate selectively. I have known most of these women for many years and I know from listening to them talk for these many years that their reasons for not vaccinating are neither well-thought-out nor defensible. One recently admitted she was counting on most other children being vaccinated to protect her children - herd immunity, and of course not the first time I have heard this one. One expressed frustration at taking her child to emerg and having to have the discussion once again with the doctor/nurse about why her children were not vaccinated. If you have no evidence, only feelings, to back up your position then it is hard to defend it.

I do not discuss vaccinations with them at all, except recently I have twice called people on misinformation. The biggest problem I see, other than the children not being vaccinated, is that it becomes acceptable to not vaccinate and there is a peer pressure within the out-of-mainstream group I belong to not vaccinate your children, so people are shocked when you say you vaccinate and on schedule. Basic factual information is disregarded or ridiculed and woo is spouted as truth.

There is a separate shingles vax. Based upon the experience of several women at the library, I would suggest that everyone look into the vaccination. It's a horribly painful disease.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

That said, I'd still be interested in more clear information on Varicella and the relationship between it (live virus infection and attentuated vax) and shingles. Its clear that the vax doesn't protect for life - some estimates are as short as 5-8 years others are longer (about 11). There is some research that vaccinations may result in the virus being embedded and later reactivated in shingles and that there are more shingles cases nowadays because we vaccinate (ie more people are exposed to the virus than they would be naturally).

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

I think the problem with knowing the connection between the vax and shingles risk is that the vax is too new. Shingles may not show up for decades, if at all. The one peer reviewed study I did see seemed to show a lower rate of shingles among children who received the varicella vaccine than those who had chicken pox, but the total number of kids who actually got shingles was so low that I wonder about the long term validity of the study. What we really need to have clear information is 50 year data, and the vaccine has only been around since the late 1980s. Frankly, that would make me immediately disregard anyone who claims to have clear information on this particular matter.

It feels like nearly everyone I know is non-vax or some form of delayed, selective vaxing. My sister is one of those who has her children so far behind on the schedule that her doctor said it would take a year to get them caught up enough to put them in the on-base childcare. She called me huffing and puffing about it and saying how her children would be safe at the childcare center because all the other children were vaxed so her non-vaxed ones wouldn't catch anything...talk about ignoring the social contract. I did kind of get a little smug joy about her freak out when she found out her non-vaxed child spent the morning with some children who later developed measles (the smugness only came AFTER we knew that baby would be fine) but she went running right out and got her MMR. None of the other vaccines though...I just get upset out she won't even listen to any scientifically based argument. It is all just "what if..." and "I feel..."

I think the idea was that if you didn't get chicken pox when you were a kid, then you'd get shingles as an adult and shingles is deadly. I believe though that if you ever had chicken pox, like 90% of us ~30 or older, then you still have a chance to get shingles as it lives on in your nervous system but not as a result of infection but stress and other issues. From my understanding though that the varicella vaccine is much, much safer as your likeliness of getting chicken pox and it embedding itself in your nervous system is reduced greatly.

Do you have sources for this? Because I hear so much stuff, and the Varicella vax is pretty new and it is unclear how long immunity is conferred for. I would be particularly interested in the claim that the likelyhood of having the virus in your nervous system is reduced.

I had heard (in this thread on an earlier page) that infection confers a lifelong immunity and that the Varicella vax won't prevent shingles or reduce your chances of getting it. I think there is a separate shingles vax.

Again, I wish I had internet on my computer and not just my phone!

I was going by memory from my Microbiology class based on the fact that you can still get shingles if you had the chicken pox at some point. It looks like the Varicella vaccine is used for anyone under 60, shingles vax for anyone over 60. This link has a pretty good overview in general:http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/w ... 0082_6.htm

_________________You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.

Last edited by linanil on Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think the problem with knowing the connection between the vax and shingles risk is that the vax is too new. Shingles may not show up for decades, if at all. The one peer reviewed study I did see seemed to show a lower rate of shingles among children who received the varicella vaccine than those who had chicken pox, but the total number of kids who actually got shingles was so low that I wonder about the long term validity of the study. What we really need to have clear information is 50 year data, and the vaccine has only been around since the late 1980s. Frankly, that would make me immediately disregard anyone who claims to have clear information on this particular matter.

I agree that we do need time and what I read may have been theoretical information but it was based on the fact that if you get chicken pox, you become immune to chicken pox but since the virus lives in your nervous system, it is possible to get a flare up and get shingles (without external exposure) at a later date. The idea is if you get the vaccine, the live virus isn't living in your immune system and therefore you can't get a flare up causing shingles.

_________________You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.

linanil- I hope you know I was not referring to you as someone peddling shady information. You made clear that you were presenting the thinking behind why the vaccine is safer as opposed to presenting it as proven fact. I was simply responding to Tofulish's wish for more clear information and saying it doesn't exist yet. :)