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Sorry Dan you talking about yourself as you quote others far more than most.You even finish with one.

No...I am not. Those quotes apply to many budo guys...the greats...all did that.

Quote:

Your questions are easily answered so I don't get your point.

Answer them

Quote:

Ki testing is good there's no more to say about it, it's straightforward and Aikido. All about harmony.
Peace.G.

Define it. I have seen the result of decades of "ki testing" that were deplorable...some even laughable. We have made a mockery of some very good models.
It is thee reason for the ki wars here and on E-budo.
Those qouting ki....couldn't do anything demonstrably different or valuable. They were full of pipe dreams made up out of cooperatve practice.

Why... are there no Ki wars today with recent people showing ki?
You get your ass handed to you in ways that feel different and is demonstrably effective. If we are really discussing ki testing making you stronger...then......
There is nothing to debate....in person!

We are talking about a result aren't we?
I didn't start a thread about ki testing making people stronger
Okay?
How much?

It's like calling yourself a true martial artist....and then objecting to being tested by a fighter.
Hence the reason people avoid being really tested in person!!!!!!!
Dan

No...I am not. Those quotes apply to many budo guys...the greats...all did that.

Answer them

Define it. I have seen the result of decades of "ki testing" that were deplorable...laughable.
It is thee reason for the ki wars here and on E-budo.
Those qouting ki....couldn't do anything demonstrably different or valuable. they were full of pipe dreams made out of cooperatve practice.

Why... are there no Ki wars today with recent people showing ki?
You get your ass handed to you in ways that feel different and is demonstrably effective.There is nothing to debate....in person!
Dan

Dan I'm afraid you are just being negative. The Ki wars was just more of the same old negative trying to prove something.

I have seen the result of internals which were deplorable so what? Using such statements in the way they are used here on the web is deplorable and worthless. I have met many who practiced Ki for years who were 'deplorable' so what? It's not something to use to prove some point. You get it in all walks of life and in fact the deplorable managers and politicians and bankers etc. even get promoted so what's new?

To promote self by denegrating others is deplorable.

What you describe as people using Ki nowadays in your own colourful way is something which has been normal in my world for years so nothing new there.

If you are 'converting' formerly negative people to a more positive understanding then good for you.

He who understands martial arts knows it has many levels and is beneficial at all those levels.

That's a defensive reaction Mary without validity.
I discussed Ueshiba, Shirata, Tohei, Shioda, and Saotome and ki which is ages old. You brought up a good point but shy away from defining it or defending it.
Tohei defended it. Did he balk at those who challenged his ideas?
Ueshiba stepped up.So did Shioda, Shirata etc.
These greats...were greats, not through theory. Not through pontificating.... but in demonstrating.

The dig is really not fair, kiddo. Even my signature line is an Aikido great who demonstrated this stuff!!
Dan

Dan I'm afraid you are just being negative. The Ki wars was just more of the same old negative trying to prove something.

I have seen the result of internals which were deplorable so what? Using such statements in the way they are used here on the web is deplorable and worthless. I have met many who practiced Ki for years who were 'deplorable' so what? It's not something to use to prove some point. You get it in all walks of life and in fact the deplorable managers and politicians and bankers etc. even get promoted so what's new?

To promote self by denegrating others is deplorable.

What you describe as people using Ki nowadays in your own colourful way is something which has been normal in my world for years so nothing new there.

If you are 'converting' formerly negative people to a more positive understanding then good for you.

He who understands martial arts knows it has many levels and is beneficial at all those levels.

He who knows Ki testing knows it is beneficial at all levels too.

Peace.G.

Not true
Only in Budo can you suck at teaching and get away with it. If you claim to teach swimming...and your students drown in a pool...you suck at teaching.
Internals and aiki are a great model. A singularly great model. Demmonstrably great model.
We need to step up and admit...we suck...so we can fix it, and not claim the model is flawed.

Mary brought up testing. Fine by me.
We can be tested for martial ability
We can be tested for ki/aiki under pressure
The real problem is that people.... can.....be tested. and THAT is what is pissing people off. They fail over and over, time and time again and they are mad to be thirty years in and it is obvious.
As one ICMA grandmaster said:"You cannot pretent dantian, you will be found out!"

The "real true martial artist" you mentioned? They don't mind failing, they see it as an opportuniy for growth!

Not true
Only in Budo can you suck at teaching and get away with it. If you claim to teach swimming...and your students drown in a pool...you suck at teaching.
Internals and aiki are a great model. A singularly great model. Demmonstrably great model.
We need to step up and admit...we suck...so we can fix it, and not claim the model is flawed.

Mary brought up testing. Fine by me. The real problem is that people.... can.....be tested. and THAT is what is pissing people off. They fail over and over, time and time again and they are mad to be thirty years in and it is obvious.
As one ICMA grandmaster said:"You cannot pretent dantian, you will be found out!"

The "real true martial artist" you mentioned? They don't mind failing, they see it as an opportuniy for growthQ

Sorry it is true. Plenty of not so good swimming coaches, football managers etc. etc. Budo is not unique.

We need to step up and admit....different ways...so we can stop thinking ours is the only way.

Mary brought up testing, Ki testing, and she no doubt did so because she knows how beneficial it is.

She also knows no doubt the benefits and wins over and over again that those she has taught have got through it.

Me, Mary, thousands of others already know and don't mind failing so once again you lose me.

These questions were answered in the form of challenges by men who created the arts we follow.

No Takeda who got challenged
No Ueshiba
No Ueshiba?
No Tohei
No Tohei?
You...wouldn't be here.
They all stepped up in real pressured fight testing.
We...are...many times just cowards who run from the very testing we brag on them for.
Dan

These questions were answered in the form of challenges by men who created the arts we follow.
We...are...many times just cowards who run from the very testing we brag on them for.
No Takeda who got challenged
No Ueshiba
No Ueshiba?
No Tohei
No Tohei?
You...wouldn't be here.
They all stepped up in real pressured fight testing.
Dan

Don't go there Dan cos every tryer in my book gets an 'A'.

Negative review in my book is deplorable, as deplorable as rose tinted glasses.

Mediocraty is?

Questions answered in the form of challenges? Another false view as far as I am concerned.

Ueshiba stated how that was not true budo. Tohei? I don't think you know enough about Tohei to be honest. I don't remember any of those entering competitions. In fact quite the reverse.

If there hadn't been a Ueshiba or Tohei I would be here still so that kind of comment is silly. I'd probably be doing I/P

Ueshiba was martial and when someone can act like him to any degree they can use him as an example. He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.

A 'fighters' view of pressure testing is warped and not Aikido as far as I am concerned. We all come across situations in life and real pressure situations where we find the truth of how it benefits us.

To use in competition and fighting come under another martial art actually, in fact most other internal martial arts, thus not Aikido. So it's all well and good people can learn about Ki and internal but thinking it's to do with fighting shows how they are not yet aware of the difference.

The last first
Aikido was always about fighting ability...thats how you could control without fighting.
If Ueshiba could not fight....none of us would be here...including this site.
What he was trying to demonstrate was to be so good you could control without fighting.

I can't disagree with the above, but why have an art that's about fighting ability yet have nothing whatsoever in the art to test that ability? Even going back to pre-war or even earlier Daito-ryu, it wasn't there either, by all accounts. It makes no sense.

Maruyama, Sensei taught that testing was noncompetitive. He was a student of Tohei and O'Sensei. He was Ron's teacher. That is the tradition we follow.

I guess it was a dig, Dan. Every thread turns into how great thou art. I sure you are. Yet I would like to be able to talk about Ki without talking about what you do. Our paths don't intersect. That is okay. I would still give you an A+

Ueshiba was martial and when someone can act like him to any degree they can use him as an example. He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.

Actually, I can think of a number of disparaging remarks - but maybe he wasn't a "true martial artist".

Maruyama, Sensei taught that testing was noncompetitive. He was a student of Tohei and O'Sensei. He was Ron's teacher. That is the tradition we follow.

I guess it was a dig, Dan. Every thread turns into how great thou art. I sure you are. Yet I would like to be able to talk about Ki without talking about what you do. Our paths don't intersect. That is okay. I would still give you an A+

In mutual frustration I could say I would love to bring up ki and not have it turn into another of your how great you aren't....and that's okay we're all equal discussions. I keep hoping for better and improved people.

I don't know why you want to talk about me anyway, Mary. I was talking about a host of people.
I can talk all day about the great men who founded these arts, the great men who followed them, and the great people teaching today and make the same points without needing to bring you into the conversation even once.

Case in point your thread wanted to talk about making people stronger. Okay.
Running around in circles chasing someone's hand while people twirl with their own arms dangling as if they are scared to death to use them lest they "muscle up" is more akin to what I see from the people who talk about ki.
In a discussion of ki (which was known to be powerful) where does the above make sense?
Power how?
How much?
Against what?
When does the pressure increase?
Why?
Against who?
Against what?
No need to talk about you or me is there?

Ueshiba was martial and when someone can act like him to any degree they can use him as an example. He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.
Peace.G.

Maruyama, Sensei taught that testing was noncompetitive. He was a student of Tohei and O'Sensei. He was Ron's teacher. That is the tradition we follow.

I guess it was a dig, Dan. Every thread turns into how great thou art. I sure you are. Yet I would like to be able to talk about Ki without talking about what you do. Our paths don't intersect. That is okay. I would still give you an A+

Hi Mary, just a minor request - when you reference Maruyama sensei, could you please also state that it is Shuji Maruyama of the Kokikai you are talking about and not Koretoshi Maruyama, who was Tohei's first chief instructor of the Ki Society ( one of my first Aikido teachers) granted, both were students of Ueshiba and Tohei, but two very different people that have taken different paths since their severed connection to Tohei.

Negative review in my book is deplorable, as deplorable as rose tinted glasses.

Mediocraty is?

Questions answered in the form of challenges? Another false view as far as I am concerned.

Ueshiba stated how that was not true budo. Tohei? I don't think you know enough about Tohei to be honest. I don't remember any of those entering competitions. In fact quite the reverse.

If there hadn't been a Ueshiba or Tohei I would be here still so that kind of comment is silly. I'd probably be doing I/P

Ueshiba was martial and when someone can act like him to any degree they can use him as an example. He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.

A 'fighters' view of pressure testing is warped and not Aikido as far as I am concerned. We all come across situations in life and real pressure situations where we find the truth of how it benefits us.

To use in competition and fighting come under another martial art actually, in fact most other internal martial arts, thus not Aikido. So it's all well and good people can learn about Ki and internal but thinking it's to do with fighting shows how they are not yet aware of the difference.

Peace.G.

Graham, buddy, that post just has so much disillusion and twisted facets that I just would not know where to start to address it - however, I applaud you for being consistent in your disillusions

In mutual frustration I could say I would love to bring up ki and not have it turn into another of your how great you aren't....and that's okay we're all equal discussions. I keep hoping for better and improved people.

I don't know why you want to talk about me anyway, Mary. I was talking about a host of people.
I can talk all day about the great men who founded these arts, the great men who followed them, and the great people teaching today and make the same points without needing to bring you into the conversation even once.

Case in point your thread wanted to talk about making people stronger. Okay.
Running around in circles chasing someone's hand while people twirl with their own arms dangling as if they are scared to death to use them lest they "muscle up" is more akin to what I see from the people who talk about ki.
In a discussion of ki (which was known to be powerful) where does the above make sense?
Power how?
How much?
Against what?
When does the pressure increase?
Why?
Against who?
Against what?
No need to talk about you or me is there?

Ueshiba was martial and when someone can act like him to any degree they can use him as an example. He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.

Quote:

Christopher Li wrote:

Actually, I can think of a number of disparaging remarks - but maybe he wasn't a "true martial artist".

Best,

Chris

For example:

Quote:

"Ueshiba Sensei spoke ill of me until the day he died."

- Koichi Tohei

There's more, of course, like the reasons why Sagawa decided turn down an invitation to teach at Aikikai Hombu Dojo that are public - and a lot more that are private.