This thread thus far has seemed pretty pro-vac, even leaning towards "those anti-vac peeps are toats loco", so I know I risk flaming here but there is another view point. Vaccinations are loaded with heavy metals like mercury and aluminum. Many of the diseases vaccinations are supposed to prevent were already on the decline due to improved hygene and nutrition and other factors when vaccinations began, so their efficiecy is also in question. Don't listen to me though; this dude's a doctor and I'm not: http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/ ... 1114120529 . I know the study re autism was, well, total bull. Just because the study was bs though does not mean a link is impossible. The Amish, who generally do not vaccinate have almost no Autism. There have been three cases of Autism in the Amish and those were kids who had been vaccinated against the norm of their communties. Conclusive? Of course not. Interesting? I think so. I get a little emotional about this because my ex's son had serious developmental delays. Both his parents swore he was a normal baby hitting all his developmental markers. Then he had a set of vaccinations and got sick. After that the serious developmental delays became obvious quickly. Maybe the timing was coincidental and the vaccinations were not to blame. Don't try telling my ex that though. I don't claim to know the answer about vaccines, but I think just because there are no conclusive studies showing vaccines to be harmful... that does not mean for sure they are safe. No one has proven yet that GMO foods are dangerous for your health... but I avoid them just the same, and I bet lots of you do too.

Last edited by Emmie on Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

In March 1983, Young was arrested in Spokane for practicing medicine without a license when he offered to provide an undercover agent with prenatal services and to treat her mother for cancer. He claimed falsely to be a graduate of "The American Institute of Physioregenerology." But the institute's owner said that Young attended only a few classes, did only 1/3 of the homework, and owed $1,800 in tuition [4-8]. The prosecuting attorney's statement of charges in the case said:

UNLAWFUL PRACTICE OF MEDICINE committed as follows: That the defendant, Donald Gary Young, in Spokane County, Washington, on or about February 24, 1983, then and there being, did then and there offer or undertake to diagnose, advise or prescribe for a human physical condition, or offer to penetrate the tissue of another human being, by means as follows: offering to deliver a baby of another person; by offering to treat another person for cancer and to detect the presence of cancer in another by. means of a blood sample which he would draw and by a blood test which he would interpret; and by offering to determine the nutritional needs of another person during pregnancy by drawing blood and interpreting the results of a blood test; the defendant at such time not having a valid unrevoked license to practice medicine [9].

Young pled guilty to the the unlawful practice of medicine and was sentenced to a year of probation. In the plea document he "explained" that he "was engaged in consulting [sic] people in alternative cancer therapy [sic] and offering dietary help in order to give people a program that would work." [10]

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Regardless of this "Doctors" qualifications or lack theroff ... there are toxins in vaccines. Toxins are nasty things. There is limited evidence showing vaccines to be effective. So why would I put toxins in mine or my childs body? I prefer not to.

Anecdotal evidence from parents of supposedly "vaccine damaged" children may not be conclusive but it is scary to me.

One of the biggest myths that antivaccinationists believe and like to use to stoke the fear of vaccines is the concept that they are full of “toxins.” The myth that mercury in the thimerosal preservative commonly used in vaccines in the U.S. until early 2002 was a major cause of autism is simply the most recent bogeyman used to try to argue that vaccines do more harm than good, as was the scare campaign engineered in response to Andrew Wakefield’s poor science claiming a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Now that study after study have failed to find or corroborate a link between thimerosal in vaccines or vaccines in general and autism to the point where even the most zealous of zealots are having a hard time defending the claim that mercury in vaccines cause autism any more, predictably the campaign against vaccines has fallen back on the old “toxins” myth.

He then dismantles the arguments one by one-- probably the arguments from web sites you've read or that come from the same sources.

Look specifically for this part:

Quote:

Of course, nearly all of these comparisons fail to acknowledge that time-honored pharmacological principle that “the dose makes the poison” and extrapolate horrible consequences known to occur during prolonged exposure or exposure to large amounts to the tiny amounts in vaccines.

Results Vaccination of healthy infants would prevent more than 12,000 cases of meningitis and bacteremia, 53,000 cases of pneumonia, 1 million episodes of otitis media, and 116 deaths due to pneumococcal infection. Before accounting for vaccine costs, the vaccination program would save $342 million in medical and $415 million in work-loss and other costs from averted pneumococcal disease.

(Yeah, that's looking at the financial impact, but they have to prove that the health impact is significant before looking at the financial impact. I have taken the health part from their results.)

This is just with about 5 minutes of looking at REPUTABLE sources. I found a bunch of other papers, published in peer-reviewed journals, that looked promising but were behind pay walls and thus couldn't be quoted. Either way, believe me, peer-reviewed sources are be reputable and believable, because if nothing else, scientists LOVE proving one another wrong.

On the other hand, the sources you have read and believe in were written by people who are lying to you.

I don't know WHY they are lying to you. I honestly don't understand it. I tend to assume that people are not monsters; they do not WANT children to suffer and die. I don't know what else it could be, though-- the long-term end result of decreasing vaccination is bad for everyone. But what else could it be? Are they bad people or just foolish?

I also assume that you, as parents, are not monsters and do not want your children to suffer (although I think that parents who, upon hearing that somebody in their neighborhood has measles rush their children over to catch it, should have a talk with CPS). I think you have been misled by people who are using your love for your children to further their own incomprehensible goals.

The Tetanus vaccine was introduced in the Dominican Republic in l975, and graphs showed a rise in the death rate along with inflammations and immune suppression. Tetanus was on a steady decline until they re-introduced the vaccine.

They point out that babies die of tetanus because of unclean methods used for cutting the umbilical cord and dressing the future belly button while it heals. What this implies to me is that baby tetanus cases were dropping because of cleaner and more modern medicine even in places where the medicine is typically primitive and it's harder to sterilize things.

On the other hand, in 1993, 750,000 babies (that they knew of) died of tetanus in the first few days of life.

This thread thus far has seemed pretty pro-vac, even leaning towards "those anti-vac peeps are toats loco", so I know I risk flaming here but there is another view point. Vaccinations are loaded with heavy metals like mercury and aluminum. Many of the diseases vaccinations are supposed to prevent were already on the decline due to improved hygene and nutrition and other factors when vaccinations began, so their efficiecy is also in question. Don't listen to me though; this dude's a doctor and I'm not: http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/ ... 1114120529 . I know the study re autism was, well, total bull. Just because the study was bs though does not mean a link is impossible. The Amish, who generally do not vaccinate have almost no Autism. There have been three cases of Autism in the Amish and those were kids who had been vaccinated against the norm of their communties. Conclusive? Of course not. Interesting? I think so. I get a little emotional about this because my ex's son had serious developmental delays. Both his parents swore he was a normal baby hitting all his developmental markers. Then he had a set of vaccinations and got sick. After that the serious developmental delays became obvious quickly. Maybe the timing was coincidental and the vaccinations were not to blame. Don't try telling my ex that though. I don't claim to know the answer about vaccines, but I think just because there are no conclusive studies showing vaccines to be harmful... that does not mean for sure they are safe. No one has proven yet that GMO foods are dangerous for your health... but I avoid them just the same, and I bet lots of you do too.

Hi Emmie. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about vaccines as some other PPKers are, but I thought I'd try to address the Amish argument. Unless I am mistaken, Amish people shun most technology. The lack of autism in their community (if that is true) does not necessarily mean that there is no autism - I suspect that perhaps it simply has not been diagnosed. The kids were vaccinated probably had more progressive parents and access to legitimate medical attention, so their issues were given a diagnosis. I wonder how many children in the community were vaccinated and NOT later found to be autistic. Anti-vax people look at the few who confirm their beliefs rather than noticing the effects on the larger group as a whole.

Maybe, maybe not? I guess my point is that correlation is not causation.

_________________"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

The list of ingredients which are the base substances in most vaccinations will make your blood start to boil. Mercury and aluminum, pus and sores of diseased animals. horse serum, calf serum, fecal matter, urine, and macerated cancer cells! Formaldehyde (embalming fluid), a preservative for the vaccine, a known carcinogen; a synthetic phenol, also a carcinogen, that may cause paralysis, convulsions, coma, necrosis and gangrene; Simian monkey virus No. 40 in polio vaccines. These are the major base ingredients that are used to formulate every vaccine. This is what they're putting in you when you get a flu shot and when your children get their vaccinations. Why would anyone want to put this into their blood?

...so, yeah. Mercury hasn't been in most vaccines for decades now. That's been cited about a hundred times and a web search will reveal this.

"Formaldehyde is used to inactivate bacterial products for toxoid vaccines (vaccines that use an inactive bacterial toxin to produce immunity)." (Wikipedia). It is a carcinogen in large quantities, and is toxic in large quantities. Of course, so is car exhaust. The dose makes the poison.

Horse serum; calf serum. Some vaccines used to be made from these. Near as I can tell from some searching around, the only people who think they still are are anti-vaccination activists trying to scare people. Yeah, turns out it's not very good for you. That's why they stopped. (And it was mostly for rabies anyway.)

Fecal matter; urine: "Seed stocks of polio virus and maybe rotavirus were created by culturing human feces. Edmonston Measles seed stocks were cultured from the nasopharyngeal secretions of a boy. Hepatitis B from human sera. They are maintained in sterile cell cultures not tapped from infected humans when the need arises thus you will not see shiitake, spit, snot, or blood listed in any vaccine ingredients lists. What you are reading and proposing is pure propaganda." (I can't find a better source than this quote from, believe it or not, mothering.com-- on the other hand, I can't find anything AT ALL about use of fecal matter in vaccines. It sounds like somebody read about early development of virus cultures and extrapolated forward.)

Synthetic virus? Well, yeah. It IS a vaccine, after all. That's how it works.

So basically, that original article's statement that "These are the major base ingredients that are used to formulate every vaccine" is massively inaccurate at best, and their list of ingredients is either wrong or phrased for maximum scare potential.

That Wikipedia link is a pretty interesting list of ingredients if you want to know which are totally vegan or not. It's also interesting to note that newer versions (Gardasil, for HPV, for example) tend to use many fewer animal-based ingredients. In the long run, though, you're using a culture of something that grows in living creatures. There's got to be something derived from living creatures along the way.

If the alternate choice, however, is San Francisco populated entirely by dead babies? Shoot me up. And my children. And yours.

There are some good points here and I may even change my mind, however...

While internet sources may well be lying to me I know my ex-partner who truly believed his son to be severly damaged by vaccination was not lying. He may have been wrong but he was not lying, and his healthy son did begin to exhibit troubling symptoms after vaccination. I know this is correlational. It could also be causal though, no?

For the record my son has had most of his chidhood vaccinations. I encountered the anti-vacc arguements and my former partner after my son already had most of his vaccinations. He has missed one set, on purpose, but has had all up to age 4. I felt awfully guilty about that when reading anti-vacc stuff. Now I just don't know. We don't get flu shots, but we also don't get the flu and if we did I venture to say it would not kill either of us.

There are some good points here and I may even change my mind, however...

While internet sources may well be lying to me I know my ex-partner who truly believed his son to be severly damaged by vaccination was not lying. He may have been wrong but he was not lying, and his healthy son did begin to exhibit troubling symptoms after vaccination. I know this is correlational. It could also be causal though, no?

I don't think people are lying. I think they may have been misled, or that they may have put things together wrong. I also don't pretend to be an expert-- I just have a pretty good idea of how to tell what's bogus and what isn't on the internet. What did doctors say?

Did you look at that article posted up there by the disbarred doctor and essential-oils-expert? He lists diseases controlled or nearly wiped out by vaccination and tries to make the point that they were all going away on their own and that vaccines don't actually do anything.

We don't get flu shots, but we also don't get the flu and if we did I venture to say it would not kill either of us.

It probably won't kill you, this is true. My dad, though, is an asthmatic with severely compromised lung function. It could kill him. I know there are several immuno-suppressed/compromised people on this very board who could die from the flu you could pass on. Vaccines are not just about you not getting sick, they're about protecting the people who cannot get them.

_________________"I'd rather have dried catshit! I'd rather have astroturf! I'd rather have an igloo!"~Isa

"But really, anyone willing to dangle their baby in front of a crocodile is A-OK in my book."~SSD

I have also just admitted I may have been reading misleading articles and may be wrong. Also, that I am concerned as many people are by anecdotal evidence... which is easy to ignore if you don't know people who believe their children and families have suffered due to vaccination damage. It is harder to ignore if you have been close to those people. It is also, of course is not scientific. I get that.

I see a lot of debunking of claims that vaccines are harmful and that's great. Really, I want that to be true. Can anyone show me a single study, (not funded by a drug comapany please) that proves they are safe? Is that even possible?

You really need to look at the sources of everything you read on the internet. What are the sources for this "evidence"? Did you look at the home page for whale.to? It's an example of the worst type of completely far-right conspiracy theorists including holocaust denial and the evidence of the "Satanic hand symbol" throughout our culture!!!!

I don't have time to post more right now - I'll leave links to proof that vaccines are effective to the scientists on this board. But you really have to do a little more looking at the sources of your "information".

Emmie wrote:

Well I was refering to evidence that many serious infectious diseases whose decline has been attributed to vaccination were already in decline due to improved nutrition and hygiene.

I have also just admitted I may have been reading misleading articles and may be wrong. Also, that I am concerned as many people are by anecdotal evidence... which is easy to ignore if you don't know people who believe their children and families have suffered due to vaccination damage. It is harder to ignore if you have been close to those people. It is also, of course is not scientific. I get that.

I see a lot of debunking of claims that vaccines are harmful and that's great. Really, I want that to be true. Can anyone show me a single study, (not funded by a drug comapany please) that proves they are safe? Is that even possible?

_________________"I'm just going to shake genitals instead of hands from now on. Cut out the middle man." - joyfulgirl

There are some good points here and I may even change my mind, however...

While internet sources may well be lying to me I know my ex-partner who truly believed his son to be severly damaged by vaccination was not lying. He may have been wrong but he was not lying, and his healthy son did begin to exhibit troubling symptoms after vaccination. I know this is correlational. It could also be causal though, no?

I don't think people are lying. I think they may have been misled, or that they may have put things together wrong. I also don't pretend to be an expert-- I just have a pretty good idea of how to tell what's bogus and what isn't on the internet. What did doctors say?

I really don't remember what the doctors told them about cause. The little boy was diagnosed with developmental delays. I doubt a doctor ever told them it was related to vaccinations but I can't say for sure. Because of the timing and the subsequent research my ex did in to the anti-vacc movement, (he likely read a lot of the same misleading articles I did) both he and his ex wife were convinced that was the cause but who can say for sure?

You really need to look at the sources of everything you read on the internet. What are the sources for this "evidence"? Did you look at the home page for whale.to? It's an example of the worst type of completely far-right conspiracy theorists including holocaust denial and the evidence of the "Satanic hand symbol" throughout our culture!!!!

I don't have time to post more right now - I'll leave links to proof that vaccines are effective to the scientists on this board. But you really have to do a little more looking at the sources of your "information".

Emmie wrote:

Well I was refering to evidence that many serious infectious diseases whose decline has been attributed to vaccination were already in decline due to improved nutrition and hygiene.

I have also just admitted I may have been reading misleading articles and may be wrong. Also, that I am concerned as many people are by anecdotal evidence... which is easy to ignore if you don't know people who believe their children and families have suffered due to vaccination damage. It is harder to ignore if you have been close to those people. It is also, of course is not scientific. I get that.

I see a lot of debunking of claims that vaccines are harmful and that's great. Really, I want that to be true. Can anyone show me a single study, (not funded by a drug comapany please) that proves they are safe? Is that even possible?

I just quickly found a chart to support something I read elsewhere... I admit I did not look at the source page. I'd really like to be done with this conversation already and get some sleep.

I got the flu shot once a long time ago. Shortly afterward I felt physically strange. I started having anxiety attacks and felt dizzy, was light sensitive and nauseous a lot. Coincidence? I have not gotten it since. I swear I have never felt the same since getting that shot. Whatever happened to washing your hands to avoid the spread of the flu?

"If the alternate choice, however, is San Francisco populated entirely by dead babies? Shoot me up. And my children. And yours."

u-huh.

Yeah, I exaggerate. SF has more like 850,000 people, and only 750,000 babies die worldwide of a single disease that could be prevented by vaccinating the mothers. What's a hundred thousand dead babies between friends?