I solved he money of where all the funds went. I picked up Rail Raiders Infinite and the two expacs on eBay And was greeted with a box the size of the NAS loot box, and two boxes the size of FK. The two boxes had a total of eight models, nothing that a smaller box like the war bands couldn’t have held. They dumped way too much money into packaging part of why hey may be struggling now makes sense.

Rail Raiders definitely had a WAY bigger box than it should have had, but I have my doubts about that costing all of the money.

But RRI with both expansions and Kickstarter heroes can fit into one of the smaller expansion boxes.

the boxes for RRI are sized based off what distributors etc. are asking for to have a more uniform size for games. You'll see a lot of games with boxes much bigger than the contents. Likewise, folks usually want the box the 'size' of the cost rather than the actual game.

the boxes for RRI are sized based off what distributors etc. are asking for to have a more uniform size for games. You'll see a lot of games with boxes much bigger than the contents. Likewise, folks usually want the box the 'size' of the cost rather than the actual game.

Ok, I guess that makes sense.

The boxes that I've recently seen that are way off from the 'standard sizes' are games that skipped retail distribution (like Kingdom Death or HATE). I guess that'd be the reason for it.

But I agree that a lot of games could easily fit into much smaller boxes comfortably. Then, some games are barely squeezing everything into their box.

I've seen that we ARE seeing recent releases from the ND, but I think it's more than fair to question how well they've been doing with those.

This is a VERY 'YMMV' perspective bit, but I literally have not heard a single thing on DoomSeeker from any gamer since it's release. If major gaming channels and outlets have done focused reviews on it, I have apparently overlooked all of them. Less than six months after release, it is currently sitting at 13,837 on BGG (at time of this writing). It has amassed all of a whopping 14 forum posts there since it's announcement. For a game built on the Warhammer license, this is frankly depressing -every game designed around the license may not be successful, but I've never seen one generate so little buzz. The two biggest online board game stores in the US, Miniatute Market and CoolStuffInc, are currently trying to get it off their shelves for roughly 25% off and 60% respectively.

The actual Ninja Division news feed on their own site literally hasn't been updated since before Thanksgiving -the first page of their animated eye-catcher banner even tells you that you can get 30% off all Super Dungeon merch... Through November 27th. A post about that from the 23rd of November is literally the newest item in their company news feed.

We all know the fluffdates moved to their website -even there, the last one was posted on October 1st.

The only relatively positive note I've seen has been that a handful of Starfinder miniatures have been shipped, and a few international buyers [finally] received Rail Riders Inc. In the case of Starfinder, multiple recipients have noticed that the packages appear to have been packed literally months ago, and just now shipped out -leading to popular and not-completely unfounded speculation that they have been effectively "sitting on" these minis for months, and either could not afford the actual shipping costs, or might have been cherry picking the better quality minis to be painted for their previously unannounced pre-painted sets that showed up to retail without so much as an announcement on ND's website.

Is there some other positive thing in the last month or two that I've missed?

If they can afford to get paper and cardboard chits into a box for DoomSeeker and a couple others in the last 12 months, I think it's about time for them to try a tie-over SDE box using standees instead of minis. The cats out of the bag, regarding their financial situation, so if they just post an honest and approachable update explaining the situation, they'd be able to minimize backlash (to the greatest extent possible).

It could be something to the effect of "As you've likely heard, we're short the capital required to produce Legends and 2.0 at this time. In order to close that gap, and get to a place where we can start approaching fulfillment, we're doing a limited run core box without miniatures. This product can be sold cheaper, give people an introduction to the world of Super Dungeon, and hopefully give us more leverage with retailers. We won't be taking pre-orders on this product -instead, we'll be offering them for sale in limited waves as they're available. If you'd like to be notified when they're available, click here."

If they're smart about it, they could include characters that have been produced as masterclass minis and as existing expansion content -that way new players could try it cheaper, and pursue existing products to improve and expand their gameplay experience if they like it. Perhaps the box could be a blend of existing masterclass characters and a few new ones that haven't been seen before (giving existing players a reason to be interested too). If they do this without pre-orders, and they say that up front as an intentional thing, [some] people would be less nervous about ordering a new SDE product that may not materialize. If they do small waves of this, they'd make minimum investment, and they could just pour the returns into gradually increasing volumes until revenue is a bit healthier. Getting new customers interested in the product that's frankly stale on shelves would boost confidence with retailers as well, so it benefits them in multiple ways.

I realize it's not plastic minis, and it's not getting our product right away. But it would be a viable path, by using the most successful franchise they have -this one. And it would generate a lot of new good will for them with new and old fans, as a sincere and measurable sign of commitment to the franchise.

January 7th, 2019, 1:48 am

ManicMan

Mini-Boss

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 amPosts: 633Location: South East England

I've suggested the standee idea as more of a 'third' option (So "Starter Set", "Explore 2.0", "Arcade"). Though if they are able to, and this is a BIG IF because if you work with a chain group that does everything, including packing, and you want to change something, it's kinda classed as a whole new job, temporary released Explore without plastic, and then give the plastic later, that might be a possible option.

As for the stuff that seamed to have been packaged and left to rot before shipping.. what's the 'proof/evidence' for that? it can be tricky to tell at times but I wonder what the proof is.. dates on packages? shipping labels? not doubting it is possible but.. well, people moan at SP/ND for 'words without backing' and then often give there own 'proof' which is.. the same thing.. words without backing.

I don't think anything has really been updated since Scott left and I don't expect anything will be until ND makes an announcement/update (which isn't guaranteed either).

I don't think the standees idea will work well. That's procuring more manufacturing (in theory they should already have art and a manufacturer since WOTF has standees) and more SKUs and my understanding was that it was hit and miss with a lot of other games that tried this option. ND is not known for great gameplay - they're known (at least for SDE and RRI) for the quality of their minis.

Without minis, SDE loses a lot of appeal from a big part of their target market that purchase specifically for the minis so that becomes another risk factor.

As for CSI and MM pushing discount on DS - I don't think it's that uncommon? I mean, I see this with other games and companies and the big online retailers can afford to do heavy discounts. The bigger issue, I think is if it's a 'too good to pass up' price and folks don't bother biting. DS was sent to one company for a video review (Lost souls or bells or something). You see reviews from other reviewers when companies spend parts of their budget specifically on marketing which I don't think ND is in any situation to do.

I don't think anyone expected DS to be a home run and without knowing the numbers, we don't know if it paid for itself or was a commercial flop or not.

It will be more telling, I think, to see if ND shows up to anymore cons since you generally need something in the pipes or to sell and I'm not sure they have anything new or will have anything in hand in the near future given the silence.

Someone in the KS comments mentioned that they are a retailer and are mainly closing out sales of the SDE product line because all they have left is expansions, and they can't really sell those if there aren't any base games around to sell any more (OOP).

Communication about SDE:L has been abysmal. One can't blame so-called "toxic communities" for lack of communication, not everyone has had a foul tongue about these matters, it's really just all excuses at this point.

There are definitely been toxic backers/fans and ND has definitely failed to meet their commitments for communication with backers (and really anyone it may seem). I consider the SDL KS community toxic. It doesn't excuse ND's behaviour and their behaviour has certainly contributed to the current climate of the community. But ND's behaviour doesn't excuse the behaviour of the individuals in the community I consider toxic.

So I think you can definitely blame both parties, which is not uncommon when things aren't going well.

January 8th, 2019, 9:35 pm

ManicMan

Mini-Boss

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 amPosts: 633Location: South East England

I had a big reply but.. decided not to post it.. it was... interesting ^_^;

but really, the main problem with what SP/ND have done wrong is simplely not giving the backers communication.. but when I first got into this game, the main thing I knew about the company was not fantastic communication ^_^

Also, if anyone wants to moan about all the money the 'wasted' which was pretty much shown not to have been wasted but sadly spend due to circumstances and misfires (with the odd waste one could argue) and how much they are moaning with death threats and major bulling (leading to mental health concerns) all over $300 (okay, someone correct me.. anyone paid more then that for there pledge? maybe. not many).. If you were THAT hard up for $300, then why are you wasting it on plastic, card and paper for a luxury hobby? and if you think you are doing on behalf of all the people who have also backed and lost money (so far) on it, kindly remove my name from any made up list of 'All backers' and 'us' cause I want nothing to do with that sort of behaver.. I take Verbal/written aggression on the same if not worse level then physical harm (you cut off someone's arm, a replacement, even if not as good, can be dealt with.. you screw up there mind, they are screwed for life.)

and yep, 100% go with Sleepy on this. they have done problems which has lead to some of the 'climate' in the community, but it's both parties at fault and some people have gone WAY too far.. every time for a while I read of a local person killed for a little amount of money as £300 or so, I think "yeah.. and i'm lumped into a group with people that want to do that"

@Manicman - multiple folks backed multiple projects and some folks got more than one all in pledge. I don't know the numbers, but that's what folks have said comment wise. Also, no one typically backs a project expecting it to fail so disappointment and reaction is expected, imo, and warranted. It's just not good when it gets ugly.

The generalization I don't agree with, but it cuts both ways for folks that want to wait vs. folks that are done.

January 8th, 2019, 10:40 pm

ManicMan

Mini-Boss

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 amPosts: 633Location: South East England

for multiple projects, well, most of the other projects are either currently delivering (though at a slower rate) or have.. but yeah, possible some problems cause if people have done others and have multiple pledges they have pledged more.. I couldn't really see why you would want multiple pledges unless looking for the scalper market (boy I hate them guys).. but I guess.. some people might want a bunch of the same..

though, yes, no-one really expects it to fail (which is kinda hasn't fully failed yet but anyway), but there are/were a number of things for IF that happens, but then technically there were things for others..

anyway, I don't say people expect fail, but it was a option.. if you wanted to refuse to believe in such an option (aka, too big to fail) then that's not really the company problem.. reasons why the fail etc, is more their problem though.

Outside of super dungeon, i have "recently" backed way of the fighter and relic knights. Way of the fighter has had the main game deliver (which is a very good game, as a side note) but all the miniatures are in unknown limbo still. Relic knights hasn't delivered at all though. There has been some beta rules stuff shared. Similar to how rule stuff has been shared for super dungeon. But, nothing has been fulfilled or currently has any time line of doing so.

Of recent stuff, really only rail raiders has delivered. That may not be fully either. I can't say on that, i'm not involved in that one, so I don't know anything past having heard it's been, functionally, fulfilled. The other big ones in way of the fighter and relic knights are partially fulfilled and not fulfilled at all. So, saying most of the other projects have or are delivering may not be accurate.

All that said. I'm still just waiting to see what happens. I still have hope that stuff will come out eventually. I don't know what form or method that will take, though. I hope it's in the form of what we put up funds for and in the method of the company getting back on it's feet and delivering, however.

January 9th, 2019, 12:06 am

ManicMan

Mini-Boss

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 amPosts: 633Location: South East England

As of right now, in terms of backers, my understanding is that RRI is finishing off international fulfillment (but I don't know if that includes the stretch goals they said they were waiting to finish manufacturing which didn't make a ton of sense of how/why these were delayed so long when they obviously did make a bunch and deliver). None of those stretch goals went to retail, but we are seeing the retail expansions hit the stores so my opinion is that RRI is done/near done (for reals).

WOTF is not done fulfilling pledges. ND has stated they're done b/c the core games hit retail, i guess, but no minis. We know they produced some of them. We know some are not produced yet. We know that these would likely sell well as retail off the webstore given the demand for them and the masterclass minis in general. But there has not been an update since last Summer re: when to expect the minis to be done. this includes both the regular and chibi crossover SDE minis.

SDL has rules, but no minis produced. In theory have molds for some of the minis (shown), but unlikely anything was produced.

RK has rules, in theory have RK 1.0 stock, in theory have the starters, in theory have bases, in theory can repackage the RK 1.0 stock, but nothing beyond production samples I think have been shown since Gencon (assume the starter they showed was the production sample they've had for awhile).

SF is pushing out deliveries at what appears to be a snail pace and there wasn't a real update on whether ND/Archon resolved their differences that came up end of last year. There isn't any schedule I'm aware of for them to get caught up on any sort of time table so /shrug.

Beyond this, there has been no progress made on the SDE NAS crossover update packs 2 > 3 although we know the design was completed last Fall by Justin b/f he left.

John hinted that there would be more Masterclass in an email, but that hasn't materialized. The Gencon RK minis they advertised did not show up and have no ETA.

===========================

So in terms of what they *are* doing, the only visible things I've seen are:1) finishing RRI KS delivery (well past due)2) Selling Doomseeker and Rainbow Knights

I mean, there are 'easter egg' art in some of the ads they've posted, but I think those are only good/positive fun if there's an expectation we'll actually see those products produced in a timely fashion.

It is very unlikely that there was any "cherry picking" the worse minis to send to backers. I say this because one of the people who got a tacky mini couldn't tell that it was a problem until after they had washed the mold release off of the mini (since ND didn't wash off that mold release, they clearly didn't know about the problem).

Going through all of the minis and selecting the better ones for retail seems like a really !SODA! move- but it also seems like a supremely inefficient move.

I'm really curious about the Starfinder Prepaints. Are they actually resin prepaints? I've never heard of such a thing before, but I have a hard time thinking that ND could afford to do a plastic run of them.

sleepy_laughter wrote:

As of right now, in terms of backers, my understanding is that RRI is finishing off international fulfillment (but I don't know if that includes the stretch goals they said they were waiting to finish manufacturing which didn't make a ton of sense of how/why these were delayed so long when they obviously did make a bunch and deliver). None of those stretch goals went to retail, but we are seeing the retail expansions hit the stores so my opinion is that RRI is done/near done (for reals).

My understanding is that the shipment from China to Europe was miscalculated- it had fewer orders than it was supposed to. So there were a number of Europeean backers who did not get their shipment when they should have. I'm not sure what the numbers look like (there are always a few screwed up orders in a Kickstarter, but I'm not sure if this was a large group or a small group that got shorted).

From what I can tell, Ninja Division was very slow at fixing the problem- possibly because they underproduced some of the KS only items, and possibly because they would need to ship them from Boise (the method they have for keeping customers from paying VAT probably involves ND payomg VAT and a reshipping agency).

Ok, a point has been made that they could produce a "Super Dungeon: Standees Edition." I think the merits for such an edition are legit (they don't have a core box released right now, and that's a problem). I think that likewise, the drawbacks of such a project are pretty big (SDE loses a LOT of its appeal if you leave out the minis).

So, I've been wondering if there is a way for them to compromise. Like, if they have what they might need to create a new edition of SDE by simply repackaging assets they have on hand. Here's a thought:

- Super Dungeon Kagejima Core Box. They take two of the Ninja Clan boxes (that's four spawn points worth of monsters, two mini bosses and two heroes) and combine that with a couple extra Ronin/Clan heroes and a boss. They'd need to print up quite a few card assets to go with it, but they can probably use some of their existing art to create the tiles and cards.

One of the issues is that it isn't clear whether it should be the explore or arcade mode. Potentially, they could try to do both (like they did with Forgotten King) or they could release it as two separate box sets (for example, the Explore set could have Ijin and Tora with Onibaba, while the Arcade set could have Ika and Yamazaru with Onryu).

Honestly, I'd love to see that happen, and if they could do it, I think it could potentially get them back on their feet. Honestly, I don't know how viable the idea is -I don't know how expensive the card assets would be, or the repackaging and I don't know if they have enough of each warband to turn them into a bunch of box sets.

Of course, you'd still need to produce a card pack for your loyal fans that already have most of the minis that they'd be repackaging.

interesting.. a bit like taking the Ninja ambush isn't it? set which is kinda a big figure set with cards and stuff. Never been a fan of fantasy style ninja's so never bothered.. might pick up at some point but.. nah.. not big on my list of to get. but Fantasy Ninja's seam very popular in America.. for some reason..