Who is Man to Take Away Free Will???

God teaches His Children to preach His Word of Salvation, damnation and Love. Even though abortion is wrong, God has granted EVERYONE free will.
Instead of trying to control people, lead by example, NOT by control!!! Also, when abortion was illegal in the US, years ago, women took it upon
themselves to get abortions, and many have suffered death. I'm sick of you people who preach prolife!!! Preach His Word!!!! When you preach His
Word, you will give God a chance to change their lives. Preach God's message of Salvation, damnation, and Love. God cares more about their souls
more than anything they could ever do. Preach what God has called you to preach!!! What you are doing is worthless!

Please, give me a Scripture in the Bible that illustrates Jesus imposing on another's free will to sin. Did Jesus ever stop someone from sinning by
using force? It's not by power, or Might, but by His Spirit. Never force your beliefs on another. NEVER!! You think that you are helping, but
you are not. You are concentrating on doing what YOU feel is right. Check your motives. Are they of love, and understanding? What you're doing is
against God's Will.

Nothing you ever do for God will ever matter if you're not doing it out of love. Jesus went to the Cross, OUT OF LOVE!! Jesus healed the sick OUT
OF LOVE!! Jesus fed the multitudes OUT OF LOVE!!! Show your love!!! Nonchristians know us by our love for one another. Did you catch what I'm
hinting at "love". Care for the person, and their soul. Stop scolding and condemning people, and check yourself. Are you right with God?

I am having trouble trying to figure out where this came from. In any case, I have a non-direct response.

You keep refering to God not forcing our choices. You also indicated a few times that you were a Christian.

How strictly do you follow your religion? It seems as though you follow it almost to the letter, citing no references to God forcing his will on
anyone. As though you have looked, and trust that the lack of examples supports your points. You very well could be right.

I am going to through a monkey wrench into this though. Since it seems that you believe in the Bible, and you believe in Jesus ( I may be wrong
because its hard for me to believe someone could support abortion and still be a Christian ), couldn't I also assume that you believe in the
teachings of the Bible. You did reference it a few times.

Moving on, the Bible indicates that God knows us, even before we were born. That God has his hand in creating each and every one of us. Looking at
that objectively means that God knows everything. He knows what mistakes we will make. (Accidental pregnancy for instance). Since life is being
conceived, He knows it, and He had a hand in it. I bet you think you know where I am going with this.....Destroying a personal creation of God and
all....but no.....thats not where I am going with this at all.

How can God know everything, all of our "choices" ahead of time? How could he know us all before we were created? How can he know
everything.....and at the same time leave us to free will? If he knows your choices ahead of time.....then your whole argument of free will goes out
the window. We cannot have free will while this is true.

Yes, God gives us free will to choose Heaven or choose hell, and to make of our lives what we want it to be. Our choices won't always be right, but
they are still our choices. Let me give you an example, you have a choice to do your homework, or to not do it. If you don't do it, you will get a
zero, but if you do it, you will get a higher grade. If you choose not to do it, your consequence would cause you to receive a zero.

If you focus on how Jesus presented Himself in the New Testament, Jesus focused on repentance. He focused on the main point; which is to lead people
to heaven. I have a question for you, if I stop someone from getting an abortion, how would their soul benefit? If I stopped her, and she happened
to die a few moments later, she would go to hell. Instead of worrying about her trying to have an abortion, I should worry more about her getting
right with God. I could preach all day saying," Stop taking drungs, stop having abortions, stop stealing stop lying, yet they won't know of Who I
serve. Basically, their soul won't benefit from my instructions.

If you read the Bible you would see that when God enters someone's life, they would change from glory to glory, becoming more like Christ. It would
do a person no good to force them to become like Christ. Also, you said that I used no examples. You might want to read my original post again.
Also, in my original post, I asked someone to give me an example of Jesus FORCING people not to sin. You didn't give me an example. He teaches, He
doesn't force. Check out some Scriptures in the New Testament. Christianity is based on love. Anyone who uses force is doing the wrong thing. My
whole point is we can't force people to do anything.
If Jesus didn't force, why should I?

What good would it be for me to stop someone from having an abortion? They will resent me. Resentment turns into hate, and hate turns into
bitterness. Bitterness can lead to a hate for God. Why would I want someone that I love to become bitter against my God? I know what bitterness
against God could do to a person, and the results are horrendous. This can lead a person straight to hell, and this is what I want to avoid.

Some people take religion and become cold and unfeeling. I am no longer cold, or unfeeling. All that is required of me, as a Christian, is to lead
others to Christ, and for those who become Christians, teach them His ways. I care about people's souls, and don't care to say,"Do this", or
"Don't do this" when it is not benefiting their souls a bit.

My goal is the souls!!! After they're saved, then the other things will be taken care of. His message is of LOVE!

There is a Christian who spoke about abortion in a loving manner. I sensed that his concern was based on true love. He even helps women who went
through abortion. He doesn't yell and protest, and make people feel bad, he helps them, and also leads them to Christ. Now that's someone I'm
proud to say serves the same God that I serve!!!! No one can debate love, NO ONE!!!

Originally posted by Classygirl
Show your love!!! Nonchristians know us by our love for one another. Did you catch what I'm hinting at "love". Care for the person, and their
soul. Stop scolding and condemning people, and check yourself. Are you right with God?

Do as I say, not as I do?

Every life is precious.

If one never learns that taking a life is not "all right", one will help others take lives. If one never learns that taking a life is not "all
right", one will continue taking lives as the opportunity presents itself. If one does not learn that the taking of a life is not "all right", one
will never ask forgiveness for their sin.

A zygote is a human life. Do not judge this life based on appearance or size. Judge it for what it is: a human life. A human life in the early stages
of development. If given time and nourishment, it will grow into something even more amazing.

In the 30 years after abortion was legalized in the US, there were 44,670,812 deaths
sanctioned by this country. 44,670,812 lives which never got to feel the sun on their faces. 44,670,812 lives which never got to fly a kite.
44,670,812 lives which never got tucked in at night. 44,670,812 lives which never got a first kiss. 44,670,812 lives which were never given a chance
to grow and learn about God. 44,670,812 lives that were never given a choice.

The bible teaches to help those who need your help. I can think of no life more in need of help than one that cannot help itself. One that is
discriminated against because of appearance and size. One that has yet to feel love.

Do you know of ANY of the situations that have taken place in the 70s with desperate women killing accidentally themselves as a result of attempting
to have an abortion? There IS freewill because they STILL had abortions, illegally. THIS is freewill. Whether the government allows it or not,
desperate women do this and also may die. So yes, there is freewill. People do things against the law, but this is called freewill.
So, you would rather a women do this, and die?

You are not understanding my point. My point is for prolifers to PREACH His Word!!! His Word is the only way for people to do what's right. Tell a
child to be good, but give him/her a reason to be good, and you'll see them become a better person. Some Christians don't understand that the rules
in the Bible are for US to follow. It does an unsaved person no justice (in the next life) to follow the rules, and end up in hell. Do you see my
point? I can't push my beliefs on another, and I WON'T. Jesus didn't, and neither will I. I will preach Salvation. I will preach, and whoever
follows me will follow me. People WILL be saved, and then they will WANT to follow God's rules. My mind won't change.

Don't you see? Did more women choose not to have abortions because they people protested against them? NO! I would be happy to see women choose
not to have abortions because they truly know God and His plans, and NOT because someone forced them. I am totally against that!!! That's the thing
about human nature, we want to force our convictions on others. Not having an abortion is MY conviction. No one can follow rules without given a
good reason, and the hope that good will result.

If one never learns that taking a life is not "all right", one will help others take lives.

How would I be promoting death if I spread His Life Giving Word?? Those who are cold towards a women in distress promotes death. How does one breath
life into someone who is dead by not using life?? His WORD is LIFE!!! If you're a Christian, you should know this. It's His WORD. It's not
protesting against them. Jesus never protested against confused, desperate people.
Now, women are going to do the abortions themselves, kill the fetus, AND kill themselves because of complications. But do YOU care?? If a women is
desperate, and allows someone to do an abortion for her, and she is unsaved, would you know that she is on her way to hell?? Do you understand her
distress? Were you ever put in her position?? Did you ever experience being persecuted for having an abortion, but no one lead you to the Lord?? Do
you pray for wisdom, and understanding? Did you ever put yourself in a women's shoes? Did you ever try to understand? If you haven't, there is NO
way for you to touch her heart. There is no way for you to lead her to salvation. God made us to be fishers of men, and you can't do this by
condemning lost people. What good would that do? No one really stops abortion, they just make it harder to occur, and many women die, as a result.
Die without knowing the Lord. The reason why I am soooo passionate is because I look at humans. I see their distress, and know that the only
formula, the only solution is JESUS!!! Not your protesting. Not anyone's protesting. Do you see her heart. Do you see her distress. See that she
is confused, but allow her to make a mistake. Let her make a mistake with the chance to live. Let her regret. Let her search herself out. Now
comfort her, and teach her why Christ died. And let her come to Christ. HER story will be the story that will turn a lot of women from deciding to
have abortions. Her story is one of pain, and confusion, but also of freedom and redemption. She's the one who can touch the heart of another who
is in her position. She's the one who experienced the healing touch of her Savior. No one who wants to protest and condemn them can help them. One
with compassion, understanding and love will prevail. That's your job as a Christian. You MUST love!! God is Love, so we shouldn't allow these
desperate ones to die, and die without knowing Him. SPREAD HIS WORD!!!!! His Word Changes Lives!!! We, as Christians, need to get up and spread His
message of Salvation. When this happens, there will be less problems to contend with. Don't start protesting when things get rough, you should have
always been protesting.
Also, it is a Christians job to judge other Christians. God is the One to judge the unsaved. If I'm sinning, tell me. But if an unsaved person is
sinning and you tell them, and they listen, they will still go to hell. Teach them about Salvation, and THEN you could teach them about what God
expects from US as Christians. My mind is made up, because I know what I'm talking about.

Also, the Lord told us to follow Him. That means do what He did. As He walked the Earth, he didn't condemn sinners, in fact, he condemned those who
condemned others (the Pharisees). Jesus also says that He does what He sees His Father doing. Basically, we are to follow Him, and strive to be like
Him. He sent us out like sheep among wolves. We aren't supposed to be the wolves, so it's obviously wrong to tear people apart. Preach and move
on. If you were good, some may follow you. If none follow, move on and preach somewhere else. Preach and move on because there is a lot of work to
be done. Preach, don't try to hold control over people. God has control. Let go, and let God. Just preach. If we do our part, God WILL do His.
It's not our job to control. What can man do that God can't???? There's a reason why abortion is on the rise, and other things that are against
God. It's a sign that Christians aren't doing there jobs. The epidemic, actually, lies upon us. God comes to judge the Church first, and the
world, later. Christians need to preach His Word. Let's show God that we are as passionate about winning souls as He is. We haven't proven it to
Him yet. We have gotten too comfortable until things were blown out of whack. Let's wake up and do what we are called to do. If we don't preach
salvation, AND turn from our own wicked ways, things will get worse. Protesting is not the way to go. Protesting is a worldly thing. Preaching is a
Godly thing.

Now, do you really think you can stop abortion. Legal or not, they have them, and at there own risk. Whichever Christians don't care needs to check
themselves with Christ. Ask God for Love, Wisdom, and Understanding. Understand how life works. No one responds to people who are cold, and who
wants to know nothing of their situation. Bond with people. Love, preach, change lives!! I have walked this walk long enough to know that
protesting against sinners is worthless. Love, and heart felt conversations opens the eyes of people. When you do this, they become ready to hear
what you have to say about Christ. Sometimes we need to use common sense. If you're cold, their eyes will stay closed. That's why I LOVE Jesus.
He was NEVER cold to me, and allowed me to make mistakes, and allowed me to grow and help others. I am the type of person that rejects everyone who
doesn't try to understand me or my situation/situations, and I think other humans are like this also. If you never took the time to know someone,
how can you convert him/her? Also, protesting is actually a way of getting the government to do things. When people protest, they never actually go
and personally talk to someone who is about to have an abortion. The time to protest is when the government infringes on your rights.

So that you won't forget my point, my point is that women will still have abortions (esp if they don't know Christ), AND stand a good chance of
going to hell because no one cared enough to talk to her, personally.

A woman needs comforted long before she regrets having an abortion. She needs help during that time of confusion before she makes her choice. She
needs to know there are people who are there for her.

She needs to know before she decides to have a baby, that God's love is unconditional. She needs to know that He gives hope to the hopeless. She
needs to know that when times are rough, He will lift her up and make her burdens lighter. She needs to know that there are people who are willing to
help her carry those burdens she clings to.

She needs to know that if she decides to have an abortion, that God's love is unconditional. She needs to know that He will forgive the greatest of
sins. She needs to know that He will be there for her regardless of the choice she makes. She needs to know that that even in the saddest of times, He
will bring her joy. She needs to know that there will be people who are willing to lend a shoulder to cry on.

Not all of those who are pro-life stand in the way yelling at the top of their lungs. There are those who will walk a woman into the clinic just so
she doesn't feel alone. There are those that will stay with her because it is never too late for her to change her mind. There are those who will be
there when it is over to comfort her and take her home.

But, there are two lives involved. Not one. Two. And, every life is precious. Both the woman's and that which she carries inside.

Edit: You said "Preach and move on." I disagree. I say know when not to preach and know when to simply love. Those in need require your love more
than "words in a book".

Do you know of ANY of the situations that have taken place in the 70s with desperate women killing accidentally themselves as a result of attempting
to have an abortion? There IS freewill because they STILL had abortions, illegally. THIS is freewill. Whether the government allows it or not,
desperate women do this and also may die. So yes, there is freewill. People do things against the law, but this is called freewill.
So, you would rather a women do this, and die?

You are not understanding my point. My point is for prolifers to PREACH His Word!!! His Word is the only way for people to do what's right. Tell a
child to be good, but give him/her a reason to be good, and you'll see them become a better person. Some Christians don't understand that the rules
in the Bible are for US to follow. It does an unsaved person no justice (in the next life) to follow the rules, and end up in hell. Do you see my
point? I can't push my beliefs on another, and I WON'T. Jesus didn't, and neither will I. I will preach Salvation. I will preach, and whoever
follows me will follow me. People WILL be saved, and then they will WANT to follow God's rules. My mind won't change.

Don't you see? Did more women choose not to have abortions because they people protested against them? NO! I would be happy to see women choose
not to have abortions because they truly know God and His plans, and NOT because someone forced them. I am totally against that!!! That's the thing
about human nature, we want to force our convictions on others. Not having an abortion is MY conviction. No one can follow rules without given a
good reason, and the hope that good will result.

Classygirl,

I am sorry that you have totally missed what I am saying. You keep talking about Preaching his Word. You also talk about free will. His word says
that he knows us all before we are even concieved! He knows everything, past, present, and future. That is His word.

Getting to my point......again.

Man isn't taking away free will if you interpret the Bible to the "Word" as you keep saying. If God knows everything AS IT SAYS, including the
future, then He knows the "decisions" we will make AHEAD OF TIME. So let me make this a little more clear. If he knows what we will do tomorrow,
then today, our actions for tomorrow are already spelled out. If you commit the murder (abortion), he already knew you would a year ago. This means
one thing simply. If our actions for tomorrow are already spelled out today....THEN WE HAVE NO CHOICE WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE! Free will is not
permitted if you believe God is all-powerful and Omnipotent.

Man cannot take away something that God never gave us.

That is unless....God doesnt know us before we are born...and God DOES NOT HAVE A HAND IN OUR DECISIONS INCLUDING THE ONES THAT LEAD TO OUT OF
WEDLOCK PREGNANCIES THAT RESULT IN ABORTION. That means that God does not have the say in creation of life like Christians seem to think it does. Go
ahead....say I am twisting the Bible... After that...sit at home by yourself and give it some thought. To yourself....you will never be able to
refute this.

If you read all of my posts, thoroughly, you would have known that I am all about showing love. My posts were based on love. Please read all of my
posts before you respond.

You said "Preach and move on." I disagree. I say know when not to preach and know when to simply love. Those in need require your love more than
"words in a book".

I was saying, preach instead of protest. Love and teaching His Word will prevent her from having an abortion, not just love. Both are VERY
important. Also, I find it impossible for you to think that the Bible is just "words in a book".

To reiterate my point to make sure you understand my point, show her love and teach her of God's love. When she knows that she is truly loved, then
talk to her that the Lord died for her, and that He wants to be her Savior. After knowing that she is truly loved, she will turn to God , sooner, or
later, and THEN teach her about how important the life that she carries inside of her is. The Love and the Word works wonders.

Knowing what we will do doesn't mean that He controls what we do. Just because I know someone will react a certain way in a certain situation
doesn't mean that I controlled the person. He is All-Knowing, but gave men free will. I know this because He created humans to choose to worship
Him. His Angels are made to worship Him, but He wanted to create creatures who CHOSE to worship Him. So, yes, we do have free will.

Man cannot take away something that God never gave us.

I know, that is why I said that it is more humane to have legal abortions available because women will still have them, but are more likely to die
from the process. Your point is well taken; I should have written a different title.

No, I don't have stats right now, but I used to when I was in high school because I had to do a debate on this subject. I wanted to be on the
prolife side, but there were too many people on that side so I had to debate for pro choice. I believe in teaching and showing love, not government
control. The government is beginning to take away more, and more rights from the American people.

I can look up some stats for you if you would like. Give me a U2U, and I will give you my email address so that I can stay in touch with you
concerning this issue, and countless others.

By the way, this may be off subject, but you should check these sites out:
www.educate-yourself.org
www.infowars.com

Originally posted by Classygirl
To reiterate my point to make sure you understand my point, show her love and teach her of God's love. When she knows that she is truly loved, then
talk to her that the Lord died for her, and that He wants to be her Savior. After knowing that she is truly loved, she will turn to God , sooner, or
later, and THEN teach her about how important the life that she carries inside of her is. The Love and the Word works wonders.

It works this way whether abortion was legal or not.

Originally posted by Classygirl
So, did you read my post concerning women performing illegal abortions and dying from them?

I did.

But society is more open to sexual education than it was 30 (and more) years ago. Education (secular or religious) is a fundamental key preventing
unwanted pregnacies. While this is true whether abortion is legal or not, legalized abortion is seen as an alternative to prevention. This inhibits
preventional education.

In addition there is a life issue involved. While the following uses numbers which have not been researched, it serves to illustrate a point.

Over the last 30 years over 44 million deaths have occurred. Let's say only half of those abortions would have taken place if abortion was illegal.
Of that half, half results in death of the female as well. 22 million + 11 million = 33 million deaths to illegal abortions. 11 million less deaths
due to abortion.

I hypothesize that education combined with threat of imprisonment/fine and self preservation would cause the number of deaths to be much lower than
that. When combined with Love and the Word, it would be lower still.

People on ATS/BTS will probably never see each other in person. So the chance of showing love is greatly reduced. I tell people about Christ and
about right and wrong on here because this is a talking place. I'm not perfect, and I am not God, but I am a christian and know in my heart I have
found the truth. The Bible says that God's spirit is who calls people to salvation. But we do have to be a witness for Him. When I talk about
Christ I certainly can't make anyone change his or her mind. That is the work of the Holy Spirit alone and a decision that the individual must make.
Part of the free will God has given us is that He leaves the decision for salvation up to us. He desires all to be saved so therefore He calls and
tugs at the hearts of everyone. But the choice to choose Him and His prescribed way of salvation is up to the individual. Choosing not to believe in
Christ is a choice. So none can blame God. If you have heard the gospel and not believed it that is a choice and a choice you have made. God
created us with a free will so that we will WANT to love Him and there can be growth and individuality in people.

Do you know of ANY of the situations that have taken place in the 70s with desperate women killing accidentally themselves as a result of attempting
to have an abortion? There IS freewill because they STILL had abortions, illegally. THIS is freewill. Whether the government allows it or not,
desperate women do this and also may die. So yes, there is freewill. People do things against the law, but this is called freewill.
So, you would rather a women do this, and die?

You are not understanding my point. My point is for prolifers to PREACH His Word!!! His Word is the only way for people to do what's right. Tell a
child to be good, but give him/her a reason to be good, and you'll see them become a better person. Some Christians don't understand that the rules
in the Bible are for US to follow. It does an unsaved person no justice (in the next life) to follow the rules, and end up in hell. Do you see my
point? I can't push my beliefs on another, and I WON'T. Jesus didn't, and neither will I. I will preach Salvation. I will preach, and whoever
follows me will follow me. People WILL be saved, and then they will WANT to follow God's rules. My mind won't change.

Don't you see? Did more women choose not to have abortions because they people protested against them? NO! I would be happy to see women choose
not to have abortions because they truly know God and His plans, and NOT because someone forced them. I am totally against that!!! That's the thing
about human nature, we want to force our convictions on others. Not having an abortion is MY conviction. No one can follow rules without given a
good reason, and the hope that good will result.

Classygirl,

I am sorry that you have totally missed what I am saying. You keep talking about Preaching his Word. You also talk about free will. His word says
that he knows us all before we are even concieved! He knows everything, past, present, and future. That is His word.

Getting to my point......again.

Man isn't taking away free will if you interpret the Bible to the "Word" as you keep saying. If God knows everything AS IT SAYS, including the
future, then He knows the "decisions" we will make AHEAD OF TIME. So let me make this a little more clear. If he knows what we will do tomorrow,
then today, our actions for tomorrow are already spelled out. If you commit the murder (abortion), he already knew you would a year ago. This means
one thing simply. If our actions for tomorrow are already spelled out today....THEN WE HAVE NO CHOICE WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE! Free will is not
permitted if you believe God is all-powerful and Omnipotent.

Man cannot take away something that God never gave us.

That is unless....God doesnt know us before we are born...and God DOES NOT HAVE A HAND IN OUR DECISIONS INCLUDING THE ONES THAT LEAD TO OUT OF
WEDLOCK PREGNANCIES THAT RESULT IN ABORTION. That means that God does not have the say in creation of life like Christians seem to think it does. Go
ahead....say I am twisting the Bible... After that...sit at home by yourself and give it some thought. To yourself....you will never be able to
refute this.

I knew the Americans would reelect George Bush - does that make it any less their choice? No! Just because someone knows the decisions you are going
to make doesn't take away from the fact that they are your decisions..

God does not know what we are going to do before we do it. He knows what we do as we do it.

Before people get all tense on me allow me to explain.

God is a being that exists outside of time and space. This allows him to see everything that is going on in every reference of time all at once.
Therefore, from his perspective, he sees everything as if it were currently happening. Kinda like a wall of TVs that are all paused at different
immages chronologically (or possibly semi-randomly).

This means that he does not know what we will do before we do them. He simply sees every action we make as we make them.

Then you are saying that time is one of two things. A spacial dimension, or a man made reference system.

Even if God were to live outside of our time, seeing all things as they happened...all at once.....there is still a problem. There are a lot of
contradictions in this statement, but I will explain the most significant as it pertains to this. God would have to exist in an infinite state. Here
forever before, here forever after type thing. Time wouldn't exist in this state....and everything would theoretically be simultaneous.

Unfortuneately, there was a definite "time" referred to in the creation story. He created earth....at a point in time. Lets look one step deeper.
HE CREATED! If he created, and he knows all, even in his infinite existence, then he knew all about us.......when he created us. It still applies.
He created something, and in that instant knew all that was too come. He knows all, and there was a time when there was no universe as we know
it...because the BIBLE SAYS HE CREATED. So he made us, all the while knowing us, and knowing our decisions. Thus making them null and void in the
end....that is unless you want to believe he knowingly and willingly sent a good portion of us straight to hell. Without any help from us.

I hypothesize that education combined with threat of imprisonment/fine and self preservation would cause the number of deaths to be much lower than
that. When combined with Love and the Word, it would be lower still.

You are totally wrong because rapists, child molesters, thieves, etc are threatened with imprisonment/fines, and STILL do it. Common sense shows that
there WILL be more deaths of people if it is illegal. You have to mature and understand human nature. When people are desperate, a threat is
worthless. You can't help humans unless you know them. This is how Jesus was soooo effective with humans while He walked the Earth.

Also Love + the Word will lower the chances of death, I agree with you there, but you still can't use the government to enforce this. You probably
aren't even aware of the amount of rights the government is taking from you. Wake up!! Open your eyes, and get out there and see what is really
happening.

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