There’s more evidence that Itachi was holding back than not, in his battle with Sasuke. Itachi’s goal was to die by Sasuke hand. If Itachi’s Tsukuyomi succeeded than it would have ruined everything and the only way he could make sure Sasuke wouldn’t lose is by holding back. Was Itachi really surprised that Sasuke broke his Tsukuyomi?

If he was really surprised, than that implies he didn’t expect Sasuke to break it and that’s counterproductive to Itachi’s goal of getting killed by Sasuke. Which brings me to my next point. What exactly exactly was the point of the illusion he used on Sasuke and what did he plan to do after he took out Sasuke’s eyes in the illusion?

He takes out Sasuke eyes, but than what? He tortures him? That doesn’t fit with Itachi’s character and M.O. Itachi doesn’t torture for fun, he does it to accomplish something. Itachi torturing Sasuke, for no reason, would of hinted at this being a genjutsu. Kakashi stated: "If your caught by his ocular jutsu, he has you instantly. It has nothing to do with whether you can defeat genjutsu or not."

Every jutsu has a weakness. You might not be immune to Tsukuyomi but you can always break out of it. Even Infinite Tsukuyomi had a way to get out.
Anyways, I believe powerful Uchiha like EMS Sasuke, Obito and Madara should be able to break out of it.

Ikbalsinghdhanjal wrote:
Every jutsu has a weakness. You might not be immune to Tsukuyomi but you can always break out of it. Even Infinite Tsukuyomi had a way to get out.
Anyways, I believe powerful Uchiha like EMS Sasuke, Obito and Madara should be able to break out of it.

Ravenlot 27 wrote:
That's more of a condition of activation rather than a weakness. The same way, a deceased person's DNA and a human sacrifice are the conditions of Edo Tensei, but these can't be called its weaknesses.

It is a weakness, it effects who it can be used on, Kabuto exploited this weakness

MadEyes008 wrote:
If Itachi’s Tsukuyomi succeeded than it would have ruined everything and the only way he could make sure Sasuke wouldn’t lose is by holding back.

This is why Itachi used it several times on Sasuke, so he could get used to it and break out. It's made fairly clear that Sasuke is capable of breaking out, Itachi, Zetsu and the databooks point to this.

Itachi was holding back by not going for every obvious opening to murder his brother. The very opening of the fight has Itachi resoundly win the Genjutsu battle. Yet he doesn't move and just sits and gloats. But the jutsu he used were full strength. Itachi nearly breaks his cover by failing to dodge the Shuriken, indicating he was fully serious.

MadEyes008 wrote:
If Itachi’s Tsukuyomi succeeded than it would have ruined everything and the only way he could make sure Sasuke wouldn’t lose is by holding back.

This is why Itachi used it several times on Sasuke, so he could get used to it and break out. It's made fairly clear that Sasuke is capable of breaking out, Itachi, Zetsu and the databooks point to this.

Itachi was holding back by not going for every obvious opening to murder his brother. The very opening of the fight has Itachi resoundly win the Genjutsu battle. Yet he doesn't move and just sits and gloats. But the jutsu he used were full strength. Itachi nearly breaks his cover by failing to dodge the Shuriken, indicating he was fully serious.

How would Itachi using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, allow him to get used to Tsukuyomi and how would that aid Sasuke? Also, as far as I know, Itachi only used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke once before his fight with Sasuke. Itachi said only someone with a sharingan and kekkai genkai could stop him, not that Sasuke was capable of breaking tsukuyomi, when Itachi's completely serious. Zetsu didn't know Itachi was throwing the fight, he was speculating why Sasuke won, without knowing that fact.

The databook only say Sasuke defeated the MS and you can defeat your opponent even if their going easy on you or even if the he concedes.

Tsukuyomi is a tech that depends on the overall power and chakra being used with it. As shown vs Sasuke in P1 Itachi can make it a world where he controls time and time dilation in the victims brain, as shown in P2 vs Sasuke he can make it a simply more powerful Sharingan Genjutsu which was obviously easier to break out of than the more powerful usage. If we are going to include novel feats for other people on any of these threads then we can do the same for Itachi and at FULL POWER he can make over 80 years go by in a persons brain in 1 second, effectively killing them by shutting their brains down.. but it leaves him super exhausted doing this. He has different levels of effort(chakra usage and power put into the tech) for his Genjutsu, Sharingan Genjutsu, and MS Genjutsu including Tsukuyomi. In fact when it 30% of his chakra he couldn't risk using his MS or its techs because it would risk expending the clone pain made so he was stuck with his normal Sharingan and no MS techs.

Never understood why it was accepted that you need a sharingan and the same blood as Itachi to break out of Tsukuyomi.

The power of Tsukuyomi lies in time dilation. If you can freely manipulate time, to mentally break your enemy before they can break out. It's a battle of speed essentially. The Tsukuyomi used on Sasuke (second time) appeared to have no time dilation, so Sasuke could break out.

There was a previous thread that broke it down nicely and explained it step by step. I'm probably butchering it now.

FlatZone wrote:
Tsukuyomi is a tech that depends on the overall power and chakra being used with it. As shown vs Sasuke in P1 Itachi can make it a world where he controls time and time dilation in the victims brain, as shown in P2 vs Sasuke he can make it a simply more powerful Sharingan Genjutsu which was obviously easier to break out of than the more powerful usage. If we are going to include novel feats for other people on any of these threads then we can do the same for Itachi and at FULL POWER he can make over 80 years go by in a persons brain in 1 second, effectively killing them by shutting their brains down.. but it leaves him super exhausted doing this. He has different levels of effort(chakra usage and power put into the tech) for his Genjutsu, Sharingan Genjutsu, and MS Genjutsu including Tsukuyomi. In fact when it 30% of his chakra he couldn't risk using his MS or its techs because it would risk expending the clone pain made so he was stuck with his normal Sharingan and no MS techs.

You may be right about him being able to put more chakra into Tsukuyomi. After all he's able to create time dilation that's equal 24 hour in an instant or 72 hours in an instant.

What benefit would Itachi have by saying someone with his blood only can break free from his Tsukuyomi? If Itachi can make it weak enough to be broken, why did he use such an extreme variation on Genin Sasuke that made him go into a coma for a long period of time which required Tsunade to heal? The answer is, he has no control over those aspects. Only the illusion itself. He didn't use a weak version on Sasuke that could be broken. He used Tsukuyomi and Sasuke broke free cause of what Itachi said. Itachi has to use a large amount of Chakra to use Tsukuyomi, or he would of been able to at 30 percent. Itachi has said Sasuke can break free. Sasuke has broken free. There is no evidence that shows Sasuke cannot. The 2nd Databook confirms this when it states how it can be defeated.

JamesSenpai wrote:
What benefit would Itachi have by saying someone with his blood only can break free from his Tsukuyomi? If Itachi can make it weak enough to be broken, why did he use such an extreme variation on Genin Sasuke that made him go into a coma for a long period of time which required Tsunade to heal? The answer is, he has no control over those aspects. Only the illusion itself. He didn't use a weak version on Sasuke that could be broken. He used Tsukuyomi and Sasuke broke free cause of what Itachi said. Itachi has to use a large amount of Chakra to use Tsukuyomi, or he would of been able to at 30 percent. Itachi has said Sasuke can break free. Sasuke has broken free. There is no evidence that shows Sasuke cannot. The 2nd Databook confirms this when it states how it can be defeated.

Itachi never said an Uchiha could break Tsukuyomi, he stated only an Uchiha could stop him. Let's assume Itachi did think someone with a sharingan who's an Uchiha could possibly beat him, it doesn't mean Sasuke could during his battle with him. Remember what Zetsu said about what's important is the variance in strength between Itachi and Sasuke? That works much more in Itachi's favor than Sasuke.

1. Itachi had the superior doujutsu.

2. Itachi used one of the strongest genjutsu.

3. Itachi's skill with genjutsu eclipsed Sasuke too.

No matter how you look at it, in skill or the power of his doujutsu he surpassed Sasuke. The reason Sasuke went into a coma wasn't, because of the strength of Tsukuyomi, but the content of the illusions he experienced. It has nothing to do with strength of it, Sasuke would felt pain regardless of if it was strong or weak, what mattered most was the content of the illusion, in that situation.

Just, because Tsukuyomi uses a large amount of chakra doesn't mean he can't increase the amount. It says nowhere that Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi used time dilation is increased to the fullest.

MadEyes008 wrote:
Itachi never said an Uchiha could break Tsukuyomi, he stated only an Uchiha could stop him. Let's assume Itachi did think someone with a sharingan who's an Uchiha could possibly beat him, it doesn't mean Sasuke could during his battle with him. Remember what Zetsu said about what's important is the variance in strength between Itachi and Sasuke? That works much more in Itachi's favor than Sasuke.

Wrong. Itachi stated that in chapter 142. Kishimoto also stated that an Uchiha can break out of it in the 2nd Databook under Tsukuyomi. Kishimoto also stated Sasuke did break Tsukuyomi in the Third Databook in Sasuke's Character profile.

Wrong. Itachi stated that in chapter 142. Kishimoto also stated that an Uchiha can break out of it in the 2nd Databook under Tsukuyomi. Kishimoto also stated Sasuke did break Tsukuyomi in the Third Databook in Sasuke's Character profile.

Prove it. Write word for word what the Viz translation of chapter 142 said, if you can't I'm just going to ignore you. Regardless of what the Databook said, the point is that Itachi didn't say it, so your point about Itachi not having a sufficient reason to say to Kakashi that someone of his blood, who has the sharingan could break Tsukuyomi, is invalid, since Itachi didn't say that.

Prove that it was said that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi. Write word for word, what the Viz translation of the 3rd Databook said, otherwise you have nothing backing up what you said and I'm just going to ignore you.

Itachi only said that in reference to Sasuke himself, because he wanted Sasuke to be the one to kill him whether he had to hold back for Sasuke to do it or not when the time came. Sasuke fully believed that until he learned the truth from Obito etc. Tsukuyomi cannot be broken by a normal Sharingan, only a powerful MS user who is an Uchiha and even then that is speculation on its own. Itachi killed a 3 tomoe Sharingan user with Tsukuyomi in the novel. He put Kakashi out for weeks with it, and he put Sasuke into a coma with it and he wasn't trying to kill or permanently disable Sasuke either.

Prove it. Write word for word what the Viz translation of chapter 142 said, if you can't I'm just going to ignore you. Regardless of what the Databook said, the point is that Itachi didn't say it, so your point about Itachi not having a sufficient reason to say to Kakashi that someone of his blood, who has the sharingan could break Tsukuyomi, is invalid, since Itachi didn't say that.

Oooo. This tactic. Normally this garbage tactic might work. But as someone with access to the viz, it ain't holding up here. I won't post word for word, I'll do one better. [[1]] As said from Itachi himself, one with the Kekkei Genkai and the Sharingan, can break free.

MadEyes008 wrote:
Prove that it was said that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi. Write word for word, what the Viz translation of the 3rd Databook said, otherwise you have nothing backing up what you said and I'm just going to ignore you.

That tactic again. Yikes. Too bad it ain't working still [[2]]. "Sasuke defeats the Mangekyo Sharingan (shows Sasuke breaking out of Tsukuyomi)". [[3]] "Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors… And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness." Then it goes on to say. "Only those of Uchiha blood… Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?" So... I win.

Oooo. This tactic. Normally this garbage tactic might work. But as someone with access to the viz, it ain't holding up here. I won't post word for word, I'll do one better. [[1]] As said from Itachi himself, one with the Kekkei Genkai and the Sharingan, can break free.

Since you didn't write word for word what Itachi said, in the Viz translation of chapter 142, I will: "...only someone with a kekkai genkai and a sharingan can stop me." He quite literally said "stop me."

That tactic again. Yikes. Too bad it ain't working still [[2]]. "Sasuke defeats the Mangekyo Sharingan (shows Sasuke breaking out of Tsukuyomi)". [[3]] "Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors… And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness." Then it goes on to say. "Only those of Uchiha blood… Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?" So... I win.

The 3rd Databook quite literally says "Sasuke defeats the Mangekyou Sharingan." It just points to the picture of Sasuke defeating the genjutsu Itachi used with his MS, but it doesn't say that, the genjutsu it pointed to, is Tsukuyomi does it?

Ninja Of War wrote:
No, I mean what gives Itachi the authority to limit the abilities of other shinobi?

Kishimoto who stated the same thing? I don't know what's hard to grasp about that.

MadEyes008 wrote:
Since you didn't write word for word what Itachi said, in the Viz translation of chapter 142, I will: "...only someone with a kekkai genkai and a sharingan can stop me." He quite literally said "stop me."

Why would i need to post word for word when i literally posted the viz page? Are you saying my words are more valuable than the actual viz? Alright... Anyways... You're actually twisting the statement Itachi made by neglecting the entire statement. You took a piece of the statement out to make it look like your right. That ain't cutting it. Itachi: "But you cannot break this special Sharingan jutsu... ...Tsukuyomi, the Nightmare Realm! Only someone with Kekkai Genkai and a Sharingan can stop me!" Itachi even stated before that, that one with a Sharingan can resist his Mangekyo to some extent. This means the subject here is Tsukuyomi. Therefore, the entire statement refers to Tsukuyomi. Let's also not forget Kishimoto states the same thing.

MadEyes008 wrote:
The 3rd Databook quite literally says "Sasuke defeats the Mangekyou Sharingan." It just points to the picture of Sasuke defeating the genjutsu Itachi used with his MS, but it doesn't say that, the genjutsu it pointed to, is Tsukuyomi does it?

I guess you didn't read the Manga, cause you would know it's literally stated in that chapter by both Zetsu and Itachi, that specific Genjutsu of Itachi reaching and grabbing Sasuke's eye, was Tsukuyomi. Read chapter 388. I also see you neglected the 2nd Databook's entry as well, which flat out states "Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors… And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness". Then it goes on to say only those with Uchiha Blood.

I guess you didn't read the Manga, cause you would know it's literally stated in that chapter by both Zetsu and Itachi, that specific Genjutsu of Itachi reaching and grabbing Sasuke's eye, was Tsukuyomi. Read chapter 388. I also see you neglected the 2nd Databook's entry as well, which flat out states "Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors… And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness". Then it goes on to say only those with Uchiha Blood.

So your going off based off what Zetsu and Itachi said? How would Zetsu know whether or not it was Tsukuyomi? Also Tsukuyomi last for an instant. We can tell that the illusion Itachi put on Sasuke didn't last an instant, because Zetsu reacted mid-illusion. If it was an instant it would have ended before Zetsu reacted. Also there is no proof time dilation was used.

Tsukuyomi is only supposed to last in instant if used at full power, used seriously. But against Sasuke he didn't even add time dilation or anything to it. That is why it didn't last a second only, and that is why Sasuke could break it.

So your going off based off what Zetsu and Itachi said? How would Zetsu know whether or not it was Tsukuyomi? Also Tsukuyomi last for an instant. We can tell that the illusion Itachi put on Sasuke didn't last an instant, because Zetsu reacted mid-illusion. If it was an instant it would have ended before Zetsu reacted. Also there is no proof time dilation was used.

And you're going off what? Your own personal feelings of not wanting something stated by the user of the jutsu and the writer of the series to be true? The series is right until proven wrong. I don't need to disprove them, you do. You really don't have an argument cause Kishimoto has said it. Itachi has said it. That means it's a fact. Sasuke can break from Tsukuyomi according to Tsukuyomi's user, and the writer of the series which he directly flat out says in the 2nd Databook. So you have to prove something, not me. I already gave direct statements showing you what they said. Now you have to prove them wrong. I don't need to prove the jutsu's user right, and i certainly don't have to prove that the writer is right, lol.

So your going off based off what Zetsu and Itachi said? How would Zetsu know whether or not it was Tsukuyomi? Also Tsukuyomi last for an instant. We can tell that the illusion Itachi put on Sasuke didn't last an instant, because Zetsu reacted mid-illusion. If it was an instant it would have ended before Zetsu reacted. Also there is no proof time dilation was used.

And you're going off what? Your own personal feelings of not wanting something stated by the user of the jutsu and the writer of the series to be true? The series is right until proven wrong. I don't need to disprove them, you do. You really don't have an argument cause Kishimoto has said it. Itachi has said it. That means it's a fact. Sasuke can break from Tsukuyomi according to Tsukuyomi's user, and the writer of the series which he directly flat out says in the 2nd Databook. So you have to prove something, not me. I already gave direct statements showing you what they said. Now you have to prove them wrong. I don't need to prove the jutsu's user right, and i certainly don't have to prove that the writer is right, lol.

So if Itachi states something it's automatically a fact, huh? Wasn't Itachi trying to throw that battle and trying to convince Sasuke that he won by his own power? I don't have to prove time dilation took was used because no one, not kishi or Itachi said that.

And for the last time, the Databook never said it was Tsukuyomi, it said Sasuke defeated MS and showed the picture of Sasuke breaking the illusion. Your assuming it's Tsukuyomi based on what Itachi said, not what the databook said, beacuse the databook, I repeat never said it was Tsukuyomi.

So if Itachi states something it's automatically a fact, huh? Wasn't Itachi trying to throw that battle and trying to convince Sasuke that he won by his own power? I don't have to prove time dilation took was used because no one, not kishi or Itachi said that.

And for the last time, the Databook never said it was Tsukuyomi, it said Sasuke defeated MS and showed the picture of Sasuke breaking the illusion. Your assuming it's Tsukuyomi based on what Itachi said, not what the databook said, but the databook, I repeat never said it was Tsukuyomi.

Itachi and Zetsu. Two people. Kishimoto also said Sasuke defeated Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan while referring to that illusion. There's only one Mangekyo Sharingan ability that Itachi has that puts you in an illusion. Tsukuyomi. And you do need to prove that it wasn't Tsukuyomi cause as I said, the series is right until proven wrong. You have to prove Itachi wrong, yes. You have to prove Zetsu wrong, yes. You have to prove the 2nd Databook wrong (which you continuously ignore and keep dwelling on the third databook instead cause it destroys any argument you can come up with), yes. You also need to prove what Genjutsu Itachi used since you're the one claiming it wasn't Tsukuyomi when Itachi and Zetsu both stated it was. Why do I need to prove anything when I'm not the one saying these things? This is the series. You have to prove the series wrong. I don't need to prove the series right. That's a pretty sad argument.

Itachi and Zetsu. Two people. Kishimoto also said Sasuke defeated Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan while referring to that illusion. There's only one Mangekyo Sharingan ability that Itachi has that puts you in an illusion. Tsukuyomi. And you do need to prove that it wasn't Tsukuyomi cause as I said, the series is right until proven wrong. You have to prove Itachi wrong, yes. You have to prove Zetsu wrong, yes. You have to prove the 2nd Databook wrong (which you continuously ignore and keep dwelling on the third databook instead cause it destroys any argument you can come up with), yes. You also need to prove what Genjutsu Itachi used since you're the one claiming it wasn't Tsukuyomi when Itachi and Zetsu both stated it was. Why do I need to prove anything when I'm not the one saying these things? This is the series. You have to prove the series wrong. I don't need to prove the series right. That's a pretty sad argument.

Itachi used a different genjutsu than Tsukuyomi vs Kabuto, while having his mangekyou on. How does the 2nd Databook destroy any argument I can make?

I could and have made the argument that there's no indication whatsoever that Itachi used time dilation against Sasuke. I also made the argument that there's nothing ever indicated Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi, with time dilation. But you ignored those arguments, probably because you know it's true and the implications of it being true.

Itachi used a different genjutsu than Tsukuyomi vs Kabuto, while having his mangekyou on. How does the 2nd Databook destroy any argument I can make?

and

Ninja of War wrote:

But did the author say that or only Itachi.

I'm addressing you both. For this one. 2nd Databook, page 252. "Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors… And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness." This shows that Itachi is right since Kishimoto literally said it. That's why it's on the Tsukuyomi page on this site. Not only does every English translator say this (which you can search for yourself if my word isn't viable by just searching "Naruto 2nd Databook" and I challenge you to prove me wrong), but even other languages come up with the same translation. The reason I can't give you a page in English is cause I found that there is no English Version for me to buy (If you can find one I'll buy it to show but I searched all over and all I've found is only a Japanese and an Indonesia version). However, I did find and have a Portuguese version for you, if you don't want to trust a translator and you want to translate it yourself. [1] As you can see on the top left corner it literally says "PARALELAMENTE, OS ÚNICOS QUE PODEM DERROTAR O TSUKUYOMI São POSSUIDORES DO SHARINGAN... MESMO ASSIM, EXCLUSIVAMENTE UM SHINOBI QUE ATINGIU GRAUS ELEVADOS DE HABILIDADE." Which in English says "PARALLELLY, THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN DEFEAT THE TSUKUYOMI ARE SHARINGAN'S OWNERS ... EVEN SO, EXCLUSIVELY A SHINOBI THAT ACHIEVED HIGH LEVELS OF SKILL." Then if you continue, it says "APENAS AQUELES COM SANGUE UCHIHA. ISTO SIGNIFICA QUE APENAS SASUKE TEM UMA CHANCE DE QUEBRARO TSUKUYOMI?" Which in English says "JUST THOSE WITH UCHIHA BLOOD. DOES IT MEAN THAT JUST SASUKE HAS A CHANCE OF BREAKING TSUKUYOMI?" [2] So I've went above and beyond to prove the series right (when I didn't even have to since anyone can find these translations with a simple google search and will see every translation, no matter the language, says the same thing... that Sharingan users with Uchiha blood are the only ones who can break it). Now where's your evidence of Kishimoto stating he, Zetsu, Kakashi, and Itachi are all wrong?

MadEyes008 wrote:

I could and have made the argument that there's no indication whatsoever that Itachi used time dilation against Sasuke. I also made the argument that there's nothing ever indicated Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi, with time dilation. But you ignored those arguments, probably because you know it's true and the implications of it being true.

Because you haven't proven it. You say there's nothing indicated, I say Itachi and Kishimoto. I ignored your argument because why do I need to prove you wrong when the series already does? You have to prove the series wrong. Yes, if I made an opinion and you made an opinion, I'd have to prove your opinion wrong. But if I have a fact and you have an opinion that says that fact is wrong, you have to prove that fact wrong.

BrainBrand wrote:
- Where does itachi or kishi prove that time dilation was used against Sasuke in their fight? The series never said time dilation was used in that instance so he don't have to prove it.

You have to proof it, because the manga nor the data book say it or show it, had time dilation and your making the claim it does.

- chapter 257

Where and when did I say time dilation was used against Sasuke? Quit making shit up. I got Ninja Of War implying that anyone with skill can break Tsukuyomi, then I got ya'll implying no one can. Nah. So far, I have presented a direct statement from Itachi, Zetsu, and Kishimoto. Itachi and Zetsu said Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi (reference above). Kishimoto implied it (reference above). And Kishimoto and Itachi stated only Uchiha with Sharingan and high skill can break it (reference above). So far your counters have been statements only coming from you without valid proof that counters actual statements made by the writer of the series and Itachi the user of the technique. So I have to prove nothing because I am the one who has provided proof and you guys have not provided any proof that denounce these statements and feats.

BrainBrand wrote:
- Where does itachi or kishi prove that time dilation was used against Sasuke in their fight? The series never said time dilation was used in that instance so he don't have to prove it.

You have to proof it, because the manga nor the data book say it or show it, had time dilation and your making the claim it does.

- chapter 257

Where and when did I say time dilation was used against Sasuke? Quit making shit up. I got Ninja Of War implying that anyone with skill can break Tsukuyomi, then I got ya'll implying no one can. Nah. So far, I have presented a direct statement from Itachi, Zetsu, and Kishimoto. Itachi and Zetsu said Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi (reference above). Kishimoto implied it (reference above). And Kishimoto and Itachi stated only Uchiha with Sharingan and high skill can break it (reference above). So far your counters have been statements only coming from you without valid proof that counters actual statements made by the writer of the series and Itachi the user of the technique. So I have to prove nothing because I am the one who has provided proof and you guys have not provided any proof that denounce these statements and feats.

When MadEyes said that there's no indication that Itachi used time dilation vs Sasuke you said this: "You say there's nothing indicated, I say Itachi and Kishimoto." So you did make the claim time dilation was used, so you do have to prove it.

BrainBrand wrote:
When MadEyes said that there's no indication that Itachi used time dilation vs Sasuke you said this: "You say there's nothing indicated, I say Itachi and Kishimoto." So you did make the claim time dilation was used, so you do have to prove it.

You should continue reading then. MadEyes008: "I also made the argument that there's nothing ever indicated Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi, with time dilation." I didn't make the claim. Your assuming I did. So I have to prove nothing because I have never stated Itachi used time dilation on Sasuke. Of course I can say he did when Sasuke was a Genin. So how about you stop assuming things, k? K.

BrainBrand wrote:
When MadEyes said that there's no indication that Itachi used time dilation vs Sasuke you said this: "You say there's nothing indicated, I say Itachi and Kishimoto." So you did make the claim time dilation was used, so you do have to prove it.

You should continue reading then. MadEyes008: "I also made the argument that there's nothing ever indicated Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi, with time dilation." I didn't make the claim. Your assuming I did. So I have to prove nothing because I have never stated Itachi used time dilation on Sasuke. Of course I can say he did when Sasuke was a Genin. So how about you stop assuming things, k? K.

There's the caveat of "with time dilation". You were just looking at the first part of what MadEyes said in the quote while ignoring the part where he mentions with time dilation, hence what you said here "You say there's nothing indicated, I say Itachi and Kishimoto."

Are you really going to make the claim that you meant Itachi vs Sasuke as a Genin? lol, if that ain't dishonest.

There's the caveat of "with time dilation". You were just looking at the first part of what MadEyes said in the quote while ignoring the part where he mentions with time dilation, hence what you said here "You say there's nothing indicated, I say Itachi and Kishimoto."

If not, explain to me, why you said the quote above.

Because he said "I also made the argument that there's nothing ever indicated Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi, with time dilation." and I said "You say there's nothing indicated, I say Itachi and Kishimoto." as my counter. I'm done explaining that with you. I told you what I was talking about and referring too. If you don't like it, oh well. Kishimoto and Itachi have both said an Uchiha with Sharingan and sufficient skill can break Tsukuyomi. That is an indication of Sasuke being able to break Tsukuyomi with time dilution.

But let's pretend I was referring to the first statement. You'd still be wrong because Itachi has used time dilation on Sasuke when he was a Genin. So... You still want to argue on what I meant, thinking you know me better than myself, or wah?

There's the caveat of "with time dilation". You were just looking at the first part of what MadEyes said in the quote while ignoring the part where he mentions with time dilation, hence what you said here "You say there's nothing indicated, I say Itachi and Kishimoto."

If not, explain to me, why you said the quote above.

Because he said "I also made the argument that there's nothing ever indicated Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi, with time dilation." and I said "You say there's nothing indicated, I say Itachi and Kishimoto." as my counter. I'm done explaining that with you. I told you what I was talking about and referring too. If you don't like it, oh well. Kishimoto and Itachi have both said an Uchiha with Sharingan and sufficient skill can break Tsukuyomi. That is an indication of Sasuke being able to break Tsukuyomi with time dilution.

But let's pretend I was referring to the first statement. You'd still be wrong because Itachi has used time dilation on Sasuke when he was a Genin. So... You still want to argue on what I meant, thinking you know me better than myself, or wah?

Are you really claiming that you meant Itachi vs genin Sasuke? Are you really going to be that dishonest? Well, it doesn't matter whether or not Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, Madeyes point still stands. There's nothing that says or shows that anyone can break it, with Time Dilation

What???? Are you trolling now cause you clearly lost? When did I say i claimed i meant Itachi vs Genin Sasuke? I said IF I was talking about mad's first statement. That PRETEND I was talking about that for a moment. You know what pretend means right? Or is that too big of a word for you to understand? I can pull up a definition if you want. It's no trouble.

I clearly said that when i said "You say there's nothing indicated, I say Itachi and Kishimoto." it was in reference too "I also made the argument that there's nothing ever indicated Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi, with time dilation." If you can't comprehend that much, I suggest yous top debating with me. Cause obviously you wouldn't know the basics of English.

Then i clearly said, even if was talking about what you THINK i was talking about, you'd still be wrong. But I wasn't, and therefore you are still wrong.

BrainBrand wrote:

There's nothing that says or shows that anyone can break it, with Time Dilation

Now I know you haven't read the Manga or even this thread or you would know that I posted a link to a Viz translation that shows Itachi saying one with the Sharingan and the Kekkei Genkai can break it in chapter 142. Then Kakashi states Sasuke, implying Sasuke can. Then I also posted a databook entry from the 2nd Databook from Kishimoto himself, saying one with the Sharingan and the Uchiha bloodline can break it. So you're even wrong about that. That's three people saying someone can break it. Nothing, huh?

There you go assuming again. I'm not mad or even annoyed. When someone says something that doesn't make sense, I just throw facts at them and I'm blunt. That makes me come off as an asshole which I'm perfectly fine with.

BrainBrand wrote:
- I specifically mentioned the caveat of "with Time Dilation" and like I said no one, said or shown, anyone could break Tsukuyomi with time dilation. If they did kindly point me to it.

Well tell me something then. Is Tsukuyomi with Dilation a different technique than Tsukuyomi? No? Then with or without that effect it gets broken. Why? Cause Kishimoto and Itachi both said one with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can break Tsukuyomi. They didn't say, one with the Sharingan and the Kekkei Genkai can break Tsukuyomi as long as it doesn't have time dilation. No, they said they can break it. That means they can break it, regardless of what effects that belong to it, are applied.

There you go assuming again. I'm not mad or even annoyed. When someone says something that doesn't make sense, I just throw facts at them and I'm blunt. That makes me come off as an asshole which I'm perfectly fine with.

I'll forget about it than.

Well tell me something then. Is Tsukuyomi with Dilation a different technique than Tsukuyomi? No? Then with or without that effect it gets broken. Why? Cause Kishimoto and Itachi both said one with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can break Tsukuyomi. They didn't say, one with the Sharingan and the Kekkei Genkai can break Tsukuyomi as long as it doesn't have time dilation. No, they said they can break it. That means they can break it, regardless of what effects that belong to it, are applied.

In the viz translation of 142 Itachi said only someone with a kekkai genkai and a sharingan can break Tsukuyomi. However, nowhere in that translation does it say how skilled you have to be to break it. According to your logic, since he didn't specify how skilled a sharingan user with the kekkai genkai has to be to beat Tsukuyomi, that means he was saying any Uchiha with an sharingan can beat it.

That contradicts what the databook said about about breaking Tsukuyomi requires an elite shinobi with particularly high degrees of skillfulness.

In the viz translation of 142 Itachi said only someone with a kekkai genkai and a sharingan can break Tsukuyomi. However, nowhere in that translation does it say how skilled you have to be to break it. According to your logic, since he didn't specify how skilled a sharingan user with the kekkai genkai has to be to beat Tsukuyomi, that means he was saying any Uchiha with an sharingan can beat it.

That contradicts what the databook said about about breaking Tsukuyomi requires an elite shinobi with particularly high degrees of skillfulness.

That's not how it works. Itachi said what he said. Then the Databook came out and further explained. The Databooks come out to explain techniques after the techniques are already introduced. So the Databook takes precedent over former statements that were released before it. However, latter feats and some statements can take precedent over the Databook. Kishimoto's word also definitely triumphs Itachi's. Him saying an elite Uchiha with Sharingan can break it does not conflict with Itachi saying an Uchiha with Sharingan can break it. It's just explaining more. It's literally the same statement just with one more detail. I don't see a contradiction in that.

I got Ninja Of War implying that anyone with skill can break Tsukuyomi, then I got ya'll implying no one can.

You got me with nothing. I clearly said that I don't understand why it is assumed that Itachi has the authority to limit other shinobi. Then you cite two descriptions of the databook. One that says "Concurrently, no one can break out of Tsukuyomi without the sharingan and Kekkei genkai". I looked it up to make sure it was correct and that word is present.

So, using Your first version databook definition, "Concurrently" fits with the story-line playing up Itachi. "Concurrently" means as it stands now, and doesn't limit all shinobi's abilities. That's my point. So there is a chance, it's not iron-clad as you say.

There was a thread a while back that explained how the source of Tsukuyomi's strength was it's speed of time-dilation. I'll try to find that post and repost it here, as I think it will be helpful.

You got me with nothing. I clearly said that I don't understand why it is assumed that Itachi has the authority to limit other shinobi.

So, using Your first version databook definition, "Concurrently" fits with the story-line playing up Itachi. "Concurrently" means as it stands now, and doesn't limit all shinobi's abilities. That's my point. So there is a chance, it's not iron-clad as you say.

You weren't implying that, but then go and say that? Makes sense I guess -Sarcasm-. In any case, you are right. The direct definition that shows for me is at the same time. So you actually provided enough evidence that denounce my claim that only Uchiha with Sharingan can break it. Well played.

Ninja Of War wrote:

There was a thread a while back that explained how the source of Tsukuyomi's strength was it's speed of time-dilation. I'll try to find that post and repost it here, as I think it will be helpful.

That's not how it works. Itachi said what he said. Then the Databook came out and further explained. The Databooks come out to explain techniques after the techniques are already introduced. So the Databook takes precedent over former statements that were released before it. However, latter feats and some statements can take precedent over the Databook. Kishimoto's word also definitely triumphs Itachi's. Him saying an elite Uchiha with Sharingan can break it does not conflict with Itachi saying an Uchiha with Sharingan can break it. It's just explaining more. It's literally the same statement just with one more detail. I don't see a contradiction in that.

You said "...Cause Kishimoto and Itachi both said one with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can break Tsukuyomi. They didn't say, one with the Sharingan and the Kekkei Genkai can break Tsukuyomi as long as it doesn't have time dilation. No, they said they can break it. That means they can break it, regardless of what effects that belong to it, are applied."

Using that logic: Itachi said one with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can break Tsukuyomi. He didn't say one with the Sharingan and the Kekkai Genkai can break Tsukuyomi, as long as their particularly skilled. He said they can break it. So that means they can break it, regardless of skill.

BrainBrand wrote:
Using that logic: Itachi said one with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can break Tsukuyomi. He didn't say one with the Sharingan and the Kekkai Genkai can break Tsukuyomi, as long as their particularly skilled. He said they can break it. So that means they can break it, regardless of skill.

Either Itachi or the Data book is wrong, if we use this logic.

There's a difference between adding too information and conflicting with information. Itachi says one with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can break it. Does Kishimoto say they need the bloodline? Yes. Does he say they need Sharingan? Yes. Does Itachi state anyone can do it? No. Does he state a skill level? No. Does Kishimoto? Yes. Does Kishimoto say the same thing and adds too it? Yes he does. Your argument relies on the word "can". Do you know what that means? It means a variety of things. You think it only means to "be able to"? No, it also can mean "be able to through acquired knowledge or skill" and can mean "have the opportunity or possibility to". So you don't have an argument.

There's a difference between adding too information and conflicting with information. Itachi says one with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can break it. Does Kishimoto say they need the bloodline? Yes. Does he say they need Sharingan? Yes. Does Itachi state anyone can do it? No. Does he state a skill level? No. Does Kishimoto? Yes. Does Kishimoto say the same thing and adds too it? Yes he does. Your argument relies on the word "can". Do you know what that means? It means a variety of things. You think it only means to "be able to"? No, it also can mean "be able to through acquired knowledge or skill" and can mean "have the opportunity or possibility to". So you don't have an argument.

What website are you getting your definitions of can? If can, can mean "have the opportunity or possibility to", than what kishi said about only an elite Uchiha with a sharingan can break Tsukuyomi break could mean only an Uchiha with the sharingan and high skill has the, possibility of breaking Tsukuyomi.

What website are you getting your definitions of can? If can, can mean "have the opportunity or possibility to", than what kishi said about only an elite Uchiha with a sharingan can break Tsukuyomi break could mean only an Uchiha with the sharingan and high skill has the, possibility of breaking Tsukuyomi.

[1][2] You can't search something up or something? And you never went to school to learn what can, can mean? See what i did there? And yeah. That's what he said. Only they have the possibility of breaking it at the time of the Databooks release. So? My argument is that an elite Uchiha with Sharingan CAN defeat Tsukuyomi and that Tsukuyomi is not unbreakable since someone CAN break it. My source is Itachi and Kishimoto. What's your point? Where's your counter with evidence?

JamesSenpai wrote:
[1][2] You can't search something up or something? And you never went to school to learn what can, can mean? See what i did there? And yeah. That's what he said. Only they have the possibility of breaking it at the time of the Databooks release. So? My argument is that an elite Uchiha with Sharingan CAN defeat Tsukuyomi and that Tsukuyomi is not unbreakable since someone CAN break it. My source is Itachi and Kishimoto. What's your point? Where's your counter with evidence?

Just as Itachi can state only someone with the kekkai genkai and the Sharingan can break Tsukuyomi, while omitting that high skill levels are necessary, Kishi can state only an elite uchiha with the sharingan can break Tsukuyomi, omitting lack of time dilation being necessary.

Just as Itachi can state only someone with the kekkai genkai and the Sharingan can break Tsukuyomi, while omitting that high skill levels are necessary, Kishi can state only an elite uchiha with the sharingan can break Tsukuyomi, omitting lack of time dilation being necessary.

Your argument is really filled with biased hardheadedness. Why would Kishimoto or Itachi even mention time dilation? It's an effect of Tsukuyomi. Not a whole different technique. Why do they need to mention any effects of any technique when saying someone can break it? The name is enough. If someone is said to be able to break Sharingan: Genjutsu, they break it and all of it's effects. If someone is said to be able to break Kotoamatsukami, then they break it and all of it's effects. If someone is said to be able to break Tsukuyomi, which is a Genjutsu of Itachi's design that he can manipulate the perception of time within, then they can break it and all it's effects. Only until it's proven otherwise. You have not done so. Your logic is so flawed that if Kishimoto said someone can break Susano'o I could say that they can't break the ribs of Susano'o since the ribs weren't mentioned. Pure bigotry.

Danzo mentioned that Tsukuyomi was as different as night and day between Sasuke genjutsu, with time dilation. Danzo implies it, makes a big difference.

What he says is, "it's a far cry from Itachi's Tsukuyomi, in which he freely manipulated time within the dream-scape". He attributed that time dilation as an effect of Tsukuyomi. He says Sasuke's Genjutsu is nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, who manipulates time within it. Tsukuyomi is Tsukuyomi, even with time dilation. He didn't say your genjutsu is weaker than Itachi's Genjutsu only with time dilation. He said it's weaker than his, which can affect time perception. Nice word manipulation though.

MadEyes008 wrote:

Kakashi eluded to Tsukuyomi not being breakable, because it was instant. Tsukuyomi being instantaneous also makes a big difference.

Wrong. He eluded that they cannot break it. Chiyo went into a full explanation on how to defeat ocular Genjutsu. Then Kakashi agreed saying, sure if it were regular Genjutsu. But if they are caught by Tsukuyomi, regardless of them being able to break Genjutsu, he has you. He didn't say if anyone is caught, he said them in particular or to be more precise Chiyo since that is who he was talking to and the word "you" was used.

Wrong. He eluded that they cannot break it. Chiyo went into a full explanation on how to defeat ocular Genjutsu. Then Kakashi agreed saying, sure if it were regular Genjutsu. But if they are caught by Tsukuyomi, regardless of them being able to break Genjutsu, he has you. He didn't say if anyone is caught, he said them in particular or to be more precise Chiyo since that is who he was talking to and the word "you" was used.

Because he wouldn't be able to break free according to Naruto, obviously. Lol. Did Kakashi say anyone or did he say you? He said you. Who was he talking too? Chiyo, Sakura, and Naruto. You have no argument. You can't prove he meant anyone in general, especially when he implied Sasuke can break it from the gecko. Itachi states only one with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can do it, Kakashi stated Sasuke. So here's what we got.

Kakashi said Sasuke. Itachi said someone with a Sharingan and Kekkei Genkai. Kishimoto said an elite someone with Sharingan and Kekkei Genkai. Now your argument relies on on the statement addressed to Chiyo, Sakura, and Naruto that only says "it has nothing to do with whether you can defeat Genjutsu or not". That doesn't even conflict with the statements provided. "He has you instantly", obviously means he has you in his Genjutsu. "it has nothing to do with whether you can defeat Genjutsu or not" obviously means even if you can break Genjutsu, that don't matter. What does? Well Itachi, Kakashi, and Kishimoto already said it.

[1][2] You can't search something up or something? And you never went to school to learn what can, can mean? See what i did there? And yeah. That's what he said. Only they have the possibility of breaking it at the time of the Databooks release. So? My argument is that an elite Uchiha with Sharingan CAN defeat Tsukuyomi and that Tsukuyomi is not unbreakable since someone CAN break it. My source is Itachi and Kishimoto. What's your point? Where's your counter with evidence?

Sorry about that...It's true the databook said that Tsukuyomi can be broken by elite Uchiha, but that doesn't mean it's very likely or probable that they can. It's just like saying, I can win the lottery. Basically, all that means, is not impossible.

So even if he can break Tsukuyomi, it doesn't mean he has a great chance. What Kishi said about an Elite Uchiha being able to break Tsukuyomi doesn't mean they can break it in all conditions. Depending on the illusion Itachi can impede their ability to break it and potentially stop them from doing so.

BrainBrand wrote:
It's true the databook said that Tsukuyomi can be broken by elite Uchiha, but that doesn't mean it's very likely or probable that they can. It's just like saying, I can win the lottery. Basically, all that means, is not impossible.

Itachi looked pretty shocked that he broke it, and at least half of Zetsu barely believed it. So yea, it's not common. But it's possible to do.

Obito said afterwards that if Itachi wanted him dead he would have been.. he also said Sasuke did not actually see through a single one of Itachi's Genjutsu. Itachi merely forced the fight to go on further to accomplish his own goals. Sasuke had no chance in hell of beating him unless he wanted Sasuke to.. as we saw.

Thekillman wrote:
Itachi looked pretty shocked that he broke it, and at least half of Zetsu barely believed it. So yea, it's not common. But it's possible to do.

He was acting....thought that this was established in the series already ;_;.

Jamessenpai wrote:
Because he wouldn't be able to break free according to Naruto, obviously. Lol.

So are you saying Bee can counter Tsukuyomi? i don't see it happening when he literally became fodder to just basic genjutsu casted by both Itachi and Sasuke..

Did Kakashi say anyone or did he say you? He said you. Who was he talking too? Chiyo, Sakura, and Naruto. You have no argument. You can't prove he meant anyone in general

Except it's not like that, Kakashi also warned two JOnin from Konoha that they can't deal with Itachi (genjutsu wise), and one of those Jonin just happened to be Konoha's best genjutsu user at that time, then Itachi went on to solo Orochimaru with just ephemeral i don't see him escaping Tsukuyomi and we can say Orochimaru>>>Konoha jonin/anbu.

especially when he implied Sasuke can break it from the gecko. Itachi states only one with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can do it, Kakashi stated Sasuke.

Also, If we wanna take things literally, Kakashi at that time said a kid Sasuke can beat Tsukuyomi which now seems like obvious BS, so with that cleared it should now be obvious that they weren't referring to Tsukuyomi.

"He has you instantly", obviously means he has you in his Genjutsu. "it has nothing to do with whether you can defeat Genjutsu or not" obviously means even if you can break Genjutsu, that don't matter.

The level of misinterpretation here is insane ;_;..the first time Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi, the latter along with Asuma described the speed of Tsukuyomi as instant or near instant, which is what Kakashi is referring to in the chiyo scene....whether you can break genjutsu or not doesn't matter is Kakashi addressing the fact that you won't have time to deal with Tsukuyomi because as he said before "it's instant"...

Now if were to use the novel feats of Tsukuyomi which was executed in a pico second or 0.000 000 000 001 seconds, which btw is an insane time to experience 80 years worth of lifetime in...what i want you to do is to tell me the name of one shinobi who can react that fast to break it.

Now regarding the usage of Tsukuyomi in the Sasuke vs Itachi battle, the contents of the Tsukuyomi is big giveaway that it was not the best or strongest for that matter...getting stabbed on a cross for what seems like three days by infinite Itachi's weilding swords, compared to getting an eye plucked out HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, i see which one is the real mind rape.

So even if he can break Tsukuyomi, it doesn't mean he has a great chance. What Kishi said about an Elite Uchiha being able to break Tsukuyomi doesn't mean they can break it in all conditions. Depending on the illusion Itachi can impede their ability to break it and potentially stop them from doing so.

What Kishimoto said is an elite someone with the Sharingan and the Kekkei Genkai can break it. Regardless of the effects that are applied, they can still potentially break it. Time dilation is as part of Tsukuyomi as Madara's arm is to Madara. If Kishimoto says someone can defeat Madara, that doesn't mean, they can defeat Madara as long as he ain't using his arm. That means he can defeat Madara. An elite Uchiha has the potential to break Tsukuyomi according to Itachi and Kishimoto.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

So are you saying Bee can counter Tsukuyomi? i don't see it happening when he literally became fodder to just basic genjutsu casted by both Itachi and Sasuke..

How did you get that from me saying Naruto said Bee couldn't break it? What?

Except it's not like that, Kakashi also warned two JOnin from Konoha that they can't deal with Itachi (genjutsu wise), and one of those Jonin just happened to be Konoha's best genjutsu user at that time, then Itachi went on to solo Orochimaru with just ephemeral i don't see him escaping Tsukuyomi and we can say Orochimaru>>>Konoha jonin/anbu.

Unless your examples include Elite Uchiha with Sharingan, then it's irrelevant since my argument is a direct statement from Kishimoto and Itachi saying an elite Uchiha with Sharingan can break it.

Also, If we wanna take things literally, Kakashi at that time said a kid Sasuke can beat Tsukuyomi which now seems like obvious BS, so with that cleared it should now be obvious that they weren't referring to Tsukuyomi.

Wrong. If we're taking things literally can was used by Itachi, who said "only someone with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can". Kakashi said Sasuke. So Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi. Can as I showed above, can mean possibility. Then Kishimoto added, they needed to be an elite as well. So, does Sasuke have those requirements or can potentially have those requirements? Yes. So no one was wrong.

The level of misinterpretation here is insane ;_;..the first time Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi, the latter along with Asuma described the speed of Tsukuyomi as instant or near instant, which is what Kakashi is referring to in the chiyo scene....whether you can break genjutsu or not doesn't matter is Kakashi addressing the fact that you won't have time to deal with Tsukuyomi because as he said before "it's instant"...

What? Me: "He has you instantly, obviously means he has you in his Genjutsu" You: "with Asuma described the speed of Tsukuyomi as instant or near instant, which is what Kakashi is referring to in the chiyo scene...." that's literally the same thing. I literally say that means you are in Tsukuyomi instantly. I misinterpreted but you didn't? Makes sense. All Tsukuyomi requires is eye contact and that's it. It's an instantaneous Genjutsu once that requirement is fulfilled. When he said it has nothing to do with breaking Genjutsu, he was referring to Chiyo who stated ways on how to break Genjutsu. No one there met the requirements Kishimoto or Itachi laid. So none of them had the ability to break it. So that was what Kakashi was referring too, even if they can break Genjutsu, it wasn't going to work on the Tsukuyomi since Kishimoto laid the terms of how to break it. As War pointed out in his counter from me, those were the requirements at that time. So whether an non Uchiha can break it or not, is irrelevant too me since my argument is the statement coming from both Kishimoto Kakashi and Itachi which states an Elite Uchiha with Sharingan can break it. You can argue all you want, but their words are facts especially when it comes from the writer.

During Kakashi, Naruto, Chiyo, and Sakura's fight against Itachi, Kakashi mentions that if Tsukuyomi hits them, it's over in an instant.

He says this for a couple reasons. The first is that he knows he himself does not have the capabilities to break it.

He also says it because Chiyo mentioned the strategy of breaking each other out of the Genjutsu.

However, Chiyo's strategy wouldn't work because no one could break someone else out of Tsukuyomi in time before the damage was done.

However, that doesn't mean elite Uchiha can't break out of Tsukuyomi even with time dilation.

If Kakashi was an elite Uchiha and Itachi used Tsukuyomi on him, Kakashi would effectively have 72 hours to break out before the mental damage hit him. However, he lacked the prerequisite of being an Uchiha.

When kakashi said that if Itachi got them in Tsukuyomi, it was all over, he wasn't saying that no one could break out of Tsukuyomi at all. He was saying that no one there could do it themselves, and the partner method doesn't work because of time dilation. Elite Uchiha could still do it with enough skill.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:
So are you saying Bee can counter Tsukuyomi? i don't see it happening when he literally became fodder to just basic genjutsu casted by both Itachi and Sasuke..

How did you get that from me saying Naruto said Bee couldn't break it? What?

This statement of yours probably wasn't structured correctly which is why is said what I said > "Because he wouldn't be able to break free according to Naruto "..... It seemed as if you don't believe in what Naruto said...

Unless your examples include Elite Uchiha with Sharingan, then it's irrelevant since my argument is a direct statement from Kishimoto and Itachi saying an elite Uchiha with Sharingan can break it.

Ok i see you keep spamming this statement, so what exactly does the term Elite represent in this case hmm, let's use another example to see things differently, say if kishimoto stated that only females can beat Madara. does this mean any female can do it? no matter of age? say if one of them is so old she can't see properly, is she still eligible of defeating Madara?..good, just wanted to expand our understanding of this statement. Now by stating Elite sharingan weilders is kinda vague in a way, as one can be considered as an elite when he's just branded with a title...lets say if we have an ordinary uchiha with mangekyou, he's smart and all but is just elected as hokage, there he will be considered as an elite right away just because of the title hokage.. so according to the statement now this means that this ordinary dude can break tsukuyomi, just because of his title as elite right?. hmm. From how i see it only Main Uchiha characters would be able to potentially break it, Obito,sasuuke and Madara kinda falls under the spotlight here now. Still with that aside even being an elite or main character doesn't 1000000% guarantee you Tsukuyomi immunity, as the move can be pulled off in different ways..say we have Obito with a deactivated sharingan who then gets strucked by tsukuyomi..would it not work there now? or is he totally immune to tsukuyomi no matter the case lol....i don't think so...

Wrong. If we're taking things literally can was used by Itachi, who said ". Kakashi said "only someone with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can Sasuke. So Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi. Can as I showed above, can mean possibility. Then Kishimoto added, they needed to be an elite as well. So, does Sasuke have those requirements or can potentially have those requirements? Yes. So no one was wrong.

only someone with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can...wait, isn't the sharingan a kekkei genkai loll..anyways i accept your point.

What? Me: "He has you instantly, obviously means he has you in his Genjutsu" You: "with Asuma described the speed of Tsukuyomi as instant or near instant, which is what Kakashi is referring to in the chiyo scene...." that's literally the same thing. I literally say that means you are in Tsukuyomi instantly. I misinterpreted but you didn't? Makes sense. All Tsukuyomi requires is eye contact and that's it. It's an instantaneous Genjutsu once that requirement is fulfilled. When he said it has nothing to do with breaking Genjutsu, he was referring to Chiyo who stated ways on how to break Genjutsu. No one there met the requirements Kishimoto or Itachi laid. So none of them had the ability to break it. So that was what Kakashi was referring too, even if they can break Genjutsu, it wasn't going to work on the Tsukuyomi since Kishimoto laid the terms of how to break it. As War pointed out in his counter from me, those were the requirements at that time. So whether an non Uchiha can break it or not, is irrelevant too me since my argument is the statement coming from both Kishimoto Kakashi and Itachi which states an Elite Uchiha with Sharingan can break it. You can argue all you want, but their words are facts especially when it comes from the writer.

Ok what i was saying is the genjutsu is executed instantly...not that you fall in it instantly, which if i were to take your every word literally is exactly what you said >>> "He has you instantly, obviously means he has you in his Genjutsu "....that is literally how sharingan genjutsu works..mostly, what asuma said was as soon as itachi stopped talking Kakashi dropped to the ground, this is Asuma pointing out the speed tsukuyomi works at which is something we shouldn't even be arguing on since we know that it is a fast gjutsu.....

What Kishimoto said is an elite someone with the Sharingan and the Kekkei Genkai can break it. Regardless of the effects that are applied, they can still potentially break it. Time dilation is as part of Tsukuyomi as Madara's arm is to Madara. If Kishimoto says someone can defeat Madara, that doesn't mean, they can defeat Madara as long as he ain't using his arm. That means he can defeat Madara. An elite Uchiha has the potential to break Tsukuyomi according to Itachi and Kishimoto.

Let me ask you this, is this impossible: Itachi performs an illusion that was so torturous that the sharingan user can't concentrate enough to break it? We saw how Sasuke reacted when Itachi took his eye out and we know it could have been much worse.

There's no particular illusion that's inherent to Tsukuyomi, it's highly variable and how torturous an illusion of, an genjutsu is, makes an astronomical difference in the opponent's concentration, as shown in the series. He can change it to make the opponent's worse nightmare.

I can defeat Madara, like you said means "I can defeat Madara", but that statement doesn't mean "I can defeat Madara in all conditions", just that they have the possibility to defeat Madara, in some conditions. The illusion that Itachi uses in the Tsukuyomi changes almost every time he uses it, it doesn't have a set illusion or set amount of time dilation, it's not the same as Madara having two arms, as he almost always has two arms, he doesn't change that on the regular. The Databook even says this: "The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency."

Having the potential to break Tsukuyomi doesn't mean their capable of it currently, but that they can become capable of it in the future.

Wrong. If we're taking things literally can was used by Itachi, who said "only someone with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can". Kakashi said Sasuke. So Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi. Can as I showed above, can mean possibility. Then Kishimoto added, they needed to be an elite as well. So, does Sasuke have those requirements or can potentially have those requirements? Yes. So no one was wrong.

If Sasuke has the potential to break it, than either he can break as he is now or he can gain the ability later. The same logic can be implied to what the databook said about an Elite Uchiha being able to break Tsukuyomi. They can gain the ability later.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:
This statement of yours probably wasn't structured correctly which is why is said what I said > "Because he wouldn't be able to break free according to Naruto "..... It seemed as if you don't believe in what Naruto said...

No it seems that too Naruto, Bee couldn't break it. You made it that meaning with your assumptions. I can't say Bee can, or can't. I don't like making assumptions like some of you. What I know is Elite Uchiha can. But As War pointed out, that was at the time only they had that ability. Which is why I won't say he can or can't, because I'm not the writer of the series like some of you think you are.

Ok i see you keep spamming this statement, so what exactly does the term Elite represent in this case hmm, let's use another example to see things differently, say if kishimoto stated that only females can beat Madara. does this mean any female can do it? no matter of age? say if one of them is so old she can't see properly, is she still eligible of defeating Madara?..good, just wanted to expand our understanding of this statement. Now by stating Elite sharingan weilders is kinda vague in a way, as one can be considered as an elite when he's just branded with a title...lets say if we have an ordinary uchiha with mangekyou, he's smart and all but is just elected as hokage, there he will be considered as an elite right away just because of the title hokage.. so according to the statement now this means that this ordinary dude can break tsukuyomi, just because of his title as elite right?. hmm. From how i see it only Main Uchiha characters would be able to potentially break it, Obito,sasuuke and Madara kinda falls under the spotlight here now. Still with that aside even being an elite or main character doesn't 1000000% guarantee you Tsukuyomi immunity, as the move can be pulled off in different ways..say we have Obito with a deactivated sharingan who then gets strucked by tsukuyomi..would it not work there now? or is he totally immune to tsukuyomi no matter the case lol....i don't think so...

Wrong. Look up the word and you'll understand what that entails. Anyone that is an Uchiha and an elite (someone who is superior in terms of ability or qualities) shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness and obtained the Sharingan, can break Tsukuyomi. Why? Cause Kishimoto said it after verifying what Itachi said. So why wouldn't I keep repeating this clear fact when Itachi said it himself, then KIshimoto said it, and no one has proved it wrong. It doesn't matter what you think or feel, facts don't care about that. Kishimoto makes the rules. He made that rule. And you have to disprove it with an actual feat or statement from the series and not your personal feelings or opinion.

only someone with the Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan can...wait, isn't the sharingan a kekkei genkai loll..anyways i accept your point.

Not really. You should check out the Kekkei Genkai thread. A Kekkei Genkai is an anomaly of the DNA. This means you not only need the Sharingan itself, but the Dna of that creates the Sharingan. Kakashi has the Sharingan, but not the Dna itself.

Ok what i was saying is the genjutsu is executed instantly...not that you fall in it instantly, which if i were to take your every word literally is exactly what you said >>> "He has you instantly, obviously means he has you in his Genjutsu "....that is literally how sharingan genjutsu works..mostly, what asuma said was as soon as itachi stopped talking Kakashi dropped to the ground, this is Asuma pointing out the speed tsukuyomi works at which is something we shouldn't even be arguing on since we know that it is a fast gjutsu.....

If you're trying to say they meant instant due to how fast the technique transpires, then you are wrong. That is because it doesn't happen in an instant. That means at 0 seconds. But it happens in a matter of seconds as shown in the series and said on the Tsukuyomi page. If a second or two passes, it isn't instant.

BrainBrand wrote:
Let me ask you this, is this impossible: Itachi performs an illusion that was so torturous that the sharingan user can't concentrate enough to break it? We saw how Sasuke reacted when Itachi took his eye out and we know it could have been much worse.

I can't say it is or it isn't since I am not the writer of the series. Unless it's stated or shown, it will only be an opinion of someone that doesn't have anything to do with the Naruto Universe.

There's no particular illusion that's inherent to Tsukuyomi, it's highly variable and how torturous an illusion of, an genjutsu is, makes an astronomical difference in the opponent's concentration, as shown in the series. He can change it to make the opponent's worse nightmare.

Your point is not leading you to success. Your going off topic. You think no one can break it, I have showed you this is wrong since Kishimoto and Itachi have said it. Whether some fall because they can't concentrate or not is irrelevant because the argument is that some can break it.

I can defeat Madara, like you said means "I can defeat Madara", but that statement doesn't mean "I can defeat Madara in all conditions", just that they have the possibility to defeat Madara, in some conditions. The illusion that Itachi uses in the Tsukuyomi changes almost every time he uses it, it doesn't have a set illusion or set amount of time dilation, it's not the same as Madara having two arms, as he almost always has two arms, he doesn't change that on the regular. The Databook even says this: "The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency."

Can Madara fight with one hand? Can Madara fight with no eyes? Yes. He's done so. So if Kishimoto said someone can defeat Madara, he isn't talking about Madara with no eyes or one hand. He's talking about Madara in general. When he says Tsukuyomi, he is talking about it in general. It and all it's effects. Tsukuyomi IS A GENJUTSU THAT ITACHI CONTROLS AT WILL. Tsukuyomi is not seperate from time dilation. Time Dilation is a component of Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi is the name of the Genjutsu. You keep trying to separate Tsukuyomi from it's effect. Kishimoto said Tsukuyomi. That means everything that is Tsukuyomi. Everything that is included in Tsukuyomi. If the writer says you can defeat Madara, that means him entirely. Not a piece of him. Not just his toes. No, everything that is included and makes Madara, Madara.

Having the potential to break Tsukuyomi doesn't mean their capable of it currently, but that they can become capable of it in the future.

Your argument is no one can. Mine is, someone can. So your argument is pointless. Same goes with the next one after this.

"@Asian my argument isnt that an uchiha cant break the tsyukyomi. Its rather that they don't have the time to, in the same way gyuki doesn't have the time to break bee out of tsyukyomi if its cast with massive time dilation to make the injury a fatal coma in one second of time. The reason I stated the argument was relevant to the other thread is because Slap happy ( the OP of that thread who is fortunately here now as well) came to the conclusion that based off your theory, since minato and kurama have a symbiotic partnership, kyuubi inside minato during tsyukyomi would be able to release him in 1/72 of a second if in tsyukyomi he theoretically released him an hour in."

"@Asian my argument isnt that an uchiha cant break the tsyukyomi. Its rather that they don't have the time to, in the same way gyuki doesn't have the time to break bee out of tsyukyomi if its cast with massive time dilation to make the injury a fatal coma in one second of time. The reason I stated the argument was relevant to the other thread is because Slap happy ( the OP of that thread who is fortunately here now as well) came to the conclusion that based off your theory, since minato and kurama have a symbiotic partnership, kyuubi inside minato during tsyukyomi would be able to release him in 1/72 of a second if in tsyukyomi he theoretically released him an hour in."

I can't really see this as evidence too Tsukuyomi's speed. This is just an entire theory. Where are the facts, yo? I know Tsukuyomi transpires extremely fast, with days passing in a matter of a second or two. However, that isn't proof that no one can break it, like this guy believed. Especially when the writer made it clear that someone can break it after the time dilution was already introduced. In fact, at the time he made this entry, Tsukuyomi was only applied with Time Dilation, it was never showed without it. That wasn't introduced until about a hundred chapters later. How they break free from it's effects can only be described in theory. But what is a fact, is that Uchiha's are said to be able to break free by Itachi and the writer. People like to throw Itachi's word out the door because he was in a masquerade. However, not everything Itachi said was a lie, and when the writer of the series says it through that character, then comes in and directly says it in the technique's official description, it becomes a fact. Unless someone has proof from a later source that proves this wrong, then this remains the truth. Tsukuyomi can be broken.

JamesSenpai wrote:
No it seems that too Naruto, Bee couldn't break it. You made it that meaning with your assumptions. I can't say Bee can, or can't. I don't like making assumptions like some of you. What I know is Elite Uchiha can. But As War pointed out, that was at the time only they had that ability. Which is why I won't say he can or can't, because I'm not the writer of the series like some of you think you are.

Ok no one's berating you or calling you the creator or anything close to that, so you can stop right here and not call anyone the same....

Killer Bee couldn't break basic genjutsu so i'm surprised that you find it hard to comprehend the fact that Tsukuyomi would be impossible for him to break at this point...

Wrong. Look up the word and you'll understand what that entails. Anyone that is an Uchiha and an elite (someone who is superior in terms of ability or qualities) shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness and obtained the Sharingan, can break Tsukuyomi.

Man you ignored the last part of this section of my comment, an 'Elite' can't break tsukuyomi under any and all circumstance just because the creator said so..i know his statements are golden but you're just lazily accepting everything word for word here. Now we got your point on the data book and author stating this and that.
So now does this mean Itachi can solo fricking kaguya, Nagato, Hashirama etc with tsukuyomi? i mean they don't possess a sharingan as you, itachi and the author said (rinnesharingan is completely different)....sounds stupid doesn't it.

Not really. You should check out the Kekkei Genkai thread. A Kekkei Genkai is an anomaly of the DNA. This means you not only need the Sharingan itself, but the Dna of that creates the Sharingan. Kakashi has the Sharingan, but not the Dna itself.

Which is kinda what i said..Dojutsu=Kekkei Genkai...but i understand the other half now.

If you're trying to say they meant instant due to how fast the technique transpires, then you are wrong. That is because it doesn't happen in an instant. That means at 0 seconds. But it happens in a matter of seconds as shown in the series and said on the Tsukuyomi page. If a second or two passes, it isn't instant.

The speed of Tsukuyomi wasn't mentioned in the databook because it's inconsistent and for Itachi to control, the novel is proof of this. The Japanese coloured version of the manga has Asuma saying "as soon as itachi finished speaking Kakashi dropped"..and it has Kakashi saying that that it was only a "moment" that passed (focus on words with quotation marks)....what proof do you have?

Ok no one's berating you or calling you the creator or anything close to that, so you can stop right here and not call anyone the same....

Killer Bee couldn't break basic genjutsu so i'm surprised that you find it hard to comprehend the fact that Tsukuyomi would be impossible for him to break at this point...

I stated why. I don't pretend to be the creator. The current Bee isn't the same Bee who fought Itachi years prior. That's what i meant when I say I ain't the creator like some of you think. You guys just spout things without really knowing. Do you know if Bee is the same? Do you have a direct quote or a case from Kishimoto that says/or shows Bee is still clueless when it comes too Genjutsu?

Man you ignored the last part of this section of my comment, an 'Elite' can't break tsukuyomi under any and all circumstance just because the creator said so..i know his statements are golden but you're just lazily accepting everything word for word here. Now we got your point on the data book and author stating this and that.
So now does this mean Itachi can solo fricking kaguya, Nagato, Hashirama etc with tsukuyomi? i mean they don't possess a sharingan as you, itachi and the author said (rinnesharingan is completely different)....sounds stupid doesn't it.

No your twisting what I said. I clearly said at the time Kishimoto said that, Elite Uchihas were the only ones capable of doing it. At that time. Meaning, the only people who could break it up to chapter 244, were Elite Uchiha. Which is why I said I won't say who can or cannot unless it comes from Kishimoto himself or the series itself. Nice try.

The speed of Tsukuyomi wasn't mentioned in the databook because it's inconsistent and for Itachi to control, the novel is proof of this. The Japanese coloured version of the manga has Asuma saying "as soon as itachi finished speaking Kakashi dropped"..and it has Kakashi saying that that it was only a "moment" that passed (focus on words with quotation marks)....what proof do you have?

A moment is just a brief period of time. It can be anything from instant to a minute. So that doesn't prove your case. Also, this shows everything we need to know [1] A Viz scan. Only a second had passed. So it isn't instant. Then you also have Sasuke screaming while in Tsukuyomi a few chapters after that.

A moment is just a brief period of time. It can be anything from instant to a minute. So that doesn't prove your case. Also, this shows everything we need to know [1] A Viz scan. Only a second had passed. So it isn't instant. Then you also have Sasuke screaming while in Tsukuyomi a few chapters after that.

An moment is an instant. Kakashi says in the Viz translation: "Unh...I see in 3 days and less than a moment has passed in this one."

Besides, even though Asuma said it took a second for Kakashi to hit the ground, after Itachi spoke, Kakashi was feeling the effects before that. Kakashi was huffing in the previous panel, before he hit the ground, so it's less than a second.

FlatZone wrote:
The cast is instant, the length of it lasted a second.. mind you he wasn't trying to cripple or kill Kakashi.. only put him out of action for a bit to keep his bad guy persona up.

That's what we're debating on. I say the cast is only instant, the other guy thinks the illusion happens instant. Another over hyping person that gives my man Itachi a bad rep.

Brainbrand wrote:
An moment is an instant. Kakashi says in the Viz translation: "Unh...I see in 3 days and less than a moment has passed in this one."

According too what? You? Lol your opinion is not evidence, sorry. [1] Just says a brief time. Brief means short. So a moment is just a short amount of time. Not instant. Stop trying to make things up and come out with some real hard hitting evidence. A moment can be anything that is considered a short amount of time. With that reason, you don't have any evidence. Nice try.

According too what? You? Lol your opinion is not evidence, sorry. [1] Just says a brief time. Brief means short. So a moment is just a short amount of time. Not instant. Stop trying to make things up and come out with some real hard hitting evidence. A moment can be anything that is considered a short amount of time. With that reason, you don't have any evidence. Nice try.

"@Asian my argument isnt that an uchiha cant break the tsyukyomi. Its rather that they don't have the time to, in the same way gyuki doesn't have the time to break bee out of tsyukyomi if its cast with massive time dilation to make the injury a fatal coma in one second of time. The reason I stated the argument was relevant to the other thread is because Slap happy ( the OP of that thread who is fortunately here now as well) came to the conclusion that based off your theory, since minato and kurama have a symbiotic partnership, kyuubi inside minato during tsyukyomi would be able to release him in 1/72 of a second if in tsyukyomi he theoretically released him an hour in."

God I remember my arguments with him. Lol.

Countering the argument again though.

The elite Uchiha is the only one who is able to break Tsukuyomi, and this Uchiha could do it while under the effects of time dilation.

One of the reasons is that the caster is also in the Genjutsu too, actively torturing. We know this because the caster has conversations with the victim, which wouldn't be possible if Tsukuyomi was just a precoded signal (which MlGShinobi argued it was).

My theory doesn't say that a Jinjuuriki could break out of Tsukuyomi because of their symbiotic relationship. Quite the contrary, I believe that if Naruto for example was caught, neither he nor Kurama could save him. The reason is that Kurama wouldn't be experiencing the Genjutsu as well. Therefore for Kurama, Tsukuyomi would still be over in a second, whereas for Naruto, he was tortured for however long.

Basically, nothing proves that an elite Uchiha can't break out of Tsukuyomi. Jinjuuriki and partner methods don't work simply because a partner or a Tailed Beast wouldn't be able to break you out in less than a second before the damage is done. The only way they could break out is if they were a highly skilled Uchiha.

The elite Uchiha is the only one who is able to break Tsukuyomi, and this Uchiha could do it while under the effects of time dilation.

One of the reasons is that the caster is also in the Genjutsu too, actively torturing. We know this because the caster has conversations with the victim, which wouldn't be possible if Tsukuyomi was just a precoded signal (which MlGShinobi argued it was).

My theory doesn't say that a Jinjuuriki could break out of Tsukuyomi because of their symbiotic relationship. Quite the contrary, I believe that if Naruto for example was caught, neither he nor Kurama could save him. The reason is that Kurama wouldn't be experiencing the Genjutsu as well. Therefore for Kurama, Tsukuyomi would still be over in a second, whereas for Naruto, he was tortured for however long.

Basically, nothing proves that an elite Uchiha can't break out of Tsukuyomi. Jinjuuriki and partner methods don't work simply because a partner or a Tailed Beast wouldn't be able to break you out in less than a second before the damage is done. The only way they could break out is if they were a highly skilled Uchiha.

When has Itachi ever had a conversation in Tsukuyomi, where the victim responds? IIRC, it has always been Itachi talking to the victim and the victim not responding. It wouldn't make sense if it, wasn't a precoded signal when Itachi uses massive time dilation.

AsianReaper wrote:
@BrainBrand, I haven't read or watched the series in awhile. But I'm pretty sure kakashi was saying to himself while getting stabbed

"It's okay, this is an illusion. It isn't real."

And Itachi replies something like "Oh but the pain is very real, isn't it?"

That happened in the anime, in the manga only Itachi said anything.

Now that I think about it, there was a older post about how Sasuke couldn't have broke, a Tsukuyomi with full Time Dilation, because there was no way to have a back and forth in such a small time frame. I'll try to find it.

BrainBrand wrote:
That happened in the anime, in the manga only Itachi said anything.

Now that I think about it, there was a older post about how Sasuke couldn't have broke, a Tsukuyomi with full Time Dilation, because there was no way to have a back and forth in such a small time frame. I'll try to find it.

It doesn't matter that it only happened in the anime, so long as it doesn't directly contradict something established in the manga.

In any case, Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke in their final fight, and they had back and forth there. I know there's arguments against whether or not it used time dilation. That's not the point here. The point is, It's obvious that part of Tsukuyomi's mechanics is that Itachi is actively manipulating the victim's senses. Whether he be dilating time or not.

Even if we ignore that evidence and the evidence from the anime, and we say that Tsukuyomi is a precoded bit of Genjutsu, then what? A highly skilled Uchiha could break out still, since they're still experiencing time so slowly. There's nothing that indicates that Uchiha can't break out; the only people who have said that it's impossible to break out are the ones who weren't Uchiha.

Not in the way you are using it. You are using it to describe a noun. Therefore, you are using it in it's adjective form. You are saying the illusion is instant. The illusion is the noun and subject and instant is describing it. Do i really need to teach you basic English? The definition of the Adjective form of instant is happening or coming immediately. So...

Even if you could argue and say it's a noun, you still don't have an argument. Just because one word means another, doesn't mean that word means that word as well at all times. As i clearly proved, moment can be as long as a minute. Instant is a minute? Either way, it ain't happening in 0 seconds and your argument fails.

JamesSenpai wrote:
I stated why. I don't pretend to be the creator. The current Bee isn't the same Bee who fought Itachi years prior. That's what i meant when I say I ain't the creator like some of you think. You guys just spout things without really knowing. Do you know if Bee is the same? Do you have a direct quote or a case from Kishimoto that says/or shows Bee is still clueless when it comes too Genjutsu?

Annnnnd you did it again. What makes you think he'll devise a genjutsu counter measure when he has a tailed beast to snap him out of genjutsu's?...i don't see it happening.

No your twisting what I said. I clearly said at the time Kishimoto said that, Elite Uchihas were the only ones capable of doing it. At that time. Meaning, the only people who could break it up to chapter 244, were Elite Uchiha. Which is why I said I won't say who can or cannot unless it comes from Kishimoto himself or the series itself. Nice try.

You never mentioned at that time, you keep saying that the elite sharingan wielders can break it, and only that. I have the databook scan as well Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors is what it said, and there were no specifications of who can defeat it in which portion of the manga. So now the tables have turned, are you gonna defy the author's words?.

A moment is just a brief period of time. It can be anything from instant to a minute. So that doesn't prove your case. Also, this shows everything we need to know [1] A Viz scan. Only a second had passed. So it isn't instant. Then you also have Sasuke screaming while in Tsukuyomi a few chapters after that.

I accept your argument, how about next time you show the statement of the person who actually experiences the genjutsu. Kakashi used the word moment to describe it, by now we know what it means..based on what asuma said it's no longer than a second that's for sure, based on the novel it's 1 billionth of a second, based on sasuke's x2 experience of it we can't say for both...this is from the copyright section of the Itachi shinden novel, proof of canonicity maybe....[2]

It doesn't matter that it only happened in the anime, so long as it doesn't directly contradict something established in the manga.

In any case, Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke in their final fight, and they had back and forth there. I know there's arguments against whether or not it used time dilation. That's not the point here. The point is, It's obvious that part of Tsukuyomi's mechanics is that Itachi is actively manipulating the victim's senses. Whether he be dilating time or not.

Even if we ignore that evidence and the evidence from the anime, and we say that Tsukuyomi is a precoded bit of Genjutsu, then what? A highly skilled Uchiha could break out still, since they're still experiencing time so slowly. There's nothing that indicates that Uchiha can't break out; the only people who have said that it's impossible to break out are the ones who weren't Uchiha.

- I agree that Itachi was controlling Sasuke's senses, but I'm not sure what your getting at or why you said it.

- We don't even have reliable evidence that Itachi even used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, during their last fight against each other. What about MIG Shinobi's argument, even if the Uchiha can break it, they wouldn't have the time to?

In the case of Tsukuyomi, for a Uchiha to break it within minutes in the illusion, which is 72 hours/1 second, their body (meaning their sharingan) would have to be able to react in that short time. You can see how this doesn't make sense, right? A sharingan has never broke a genjutsu even close to that fast before, unless we include the Sasuke fight, but we don't have reliable evidence that he even broke Tsukuyomi or if he did break it, if Itachi use Time Dilation.

Annnnnd you did it again. What makes you think he'll devise a genjutsu counter measure when he has a tailed beast to snap him out of genjutsu's?...i don't see it happening.

I never said I think he can. I said is there any proof he hasn't changed. And yes, I did do it again. Because you keep acting like you're the creator. Who are you to say who can and can't break Itachi's NORMAL Genjutsu without any proof? Your argument relies on a character feat that happened over 11 years prior. I didn't say Bee could break it, but I did say you have no evidence that he can't. How you feel is irrelevant in a factual debate.

You never mentioned at that time, you keep saying that the elite sharingan wielders can break it, and only that. I have the databook scan as well Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors is what it said, and there were no specifications of who can defeat it in which portion of the manga. So now the tables have turned, are you gonna defy the author's words?.

... You literally quoted me saying "at that time" 3 days ago??????? ME QUOTED BY YOU: "As War pointed out in his counter from me, those were the requirements at that time. So whether an non Uchiha can break it or not, is irrelevant too me since my argument is the statement coming from both Kishimoto Kakashi and Itachi which states an Elite Uchiha with Sharingan can break it." Which you replied with... YOU: "Ok what i was saying is the genjutsu is executed instantly...not that you fall in it instantly, which if i were to take your every word literally is exactly what you said-" Why are you lying??? As for the word concurrently. If you actually read my posts and this thread, you would know that me and War debated it already. I thought only Uchihas had the ability to break it. But War disagreed and said concurrently in this case means "at that time" which i accepted as valid. To be more precise it means at the same time which means at this particular time.

I accept your argument, how about next time you show the statement of the person who actually experiences the genjutsu. Kakashi used the word moment to describe it, by now we know what it means..based on what asuma said it's no longer than a second that's for sure, based on the novel it's 1 billionth of a second, based on sasuke's x2 experience of it we can't say for both...this is from the copyright section of the Itachi shinden novel, proof of canonicity maybe....[1]

Why do I need to show what Kakashi said when someone above my post already did by quoting him? I know what Kakashi said, me and brand were obviously discussing it which you would know if you bothered to read before replying. You can literally see the quote I repleid too that literally says what Kakashi said and him saying moment. So... Yes a moment just means a brief period of time. Could be anywhere from a minute to an instant. The argument you are butting in, is the illusion instant? Based off the evidence you provided yourself, it is not. 1 billionth of a second is a nanosecond. A nanosecond does not happen at 0. It happens at 0.0000000001. Instant in it's adjective form happens at 0. Of course people question if that novel and various others are canon since Kishimoto only illustrated them and were written by various authors without being said to be supervised by Kishimoto. If you can prove the writer supervised them, then you can prove they're canon. I don't know much about the novels so I won't say they are or not canon. But so far i don't see anything that shows me the illusion of Tsukuyomi happens instantly.

@Jason, unless the Author section also says Kishimotos name in it then we cannot confirm the canonicity of the book until a statement is given saying either way for each book and as you can see Kishi is not the author on these Shinden and Hiden books.

Not in the way you are using it. You are using it to describe a noun. Therefore, you are using it in it's adjective form. You are saying the illusion is instant. The illusion is the noun and subject and instant is describing it. Do i really need to teach you basic English? The definition of the Adjective form of instant is happening or coming immediately. So...

I'm using it how Kakashi used moment here: "Unh...I see in 3 days and less than a moment has passed in this one." Just replace moment with instant.

I read this on Dictionary.com: "A minute, properly denoting 60 seconds, is often used loosely for any very short space of time (and may be interchangeable with second ): I'll be there in just a minute."

Minute doesn't always mean 60 seconds. So in Kakashi's case, he likely meant less than a moment/instant/second passed.

Even if you could argue and say it's a noun, you still don't have an argument. Just because one word means another, doesn't mean that word means that word as well at all times. As i clearly proved, moment can be as long as a minute. Instant is a minute? Either way, it ain't happening in 0 seconds and your argument fails.

JamesSenpai wrote:
I never said I think he can. What I said, is there any proof he hasn't changed. And yes, I did do it again. Because you keep acting like you're the creator. Who are you to say who can and can't break Itachi's NORMAL Genjutsu without any proof? Your argument relies on a character feat that happened over 11 years prior. I didn't say Bee could break it, but I did say you have no evidence that he can't. How you feel is irrelevant in a factual debate.

tf..
Did you seriously think i'm talking about normal genjutsu? the entire discussion is about tsukuyomi. You keep posting the statements by kishimoto about the uchiha's breaking tsukuyomi, yet Killer Bee isn't an Uchiha with the sharingan so why ohhhhhhh wyyyyyyyyyyy are you having so much trouble in just saying he can't beat tsukuyomi? you're just very thinly denying the authors statements.I never said that you said he can break it, it's just that you're not accepting that he can't...My proof is the same databook statement you keep using. What's yours?

Why are you lying??? As for the word concurrently. If you actually read my posts and this thread, you would know that me and War debated it already. I thought only Uchihas had the ability to break it. But War disagreed and said concurrently in this case means "at that time" which i accepted as valid. To be more precise it means at the same time which means at this particular time.

What the hell is in the quotation marks..i dont understand. What does it prove?..still it doesn't change the fact that 'at that time' wasn't mentioned by Itachi or Kishimoto. Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labeled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors is the full text from the dbook, the use of concurrently (meanings: At the same time/Simultaneously) refers to the very few first lines of the writer speaking about sharingan needing to cast tsukuyomi and it also being the jutsu's weakness. To put it simply "The Sharingan is needed to cast tsukuyomi, at the same time the jutsu can be broken also by the sharingan" is how i see it.

Why do I need to show what Kakashi said when someone above my post already did by quoting him? I know what Kakashi said, me and brand were obviously discussing it which you would know if you bothered to read before replying. You can literally see the quote I repleid too that literally says what Kakashi said and him saying moment. So... Yes a moment just means a brief period of time. Could be anywhere from a minute to an instant. The argument you are butting in, is the illusion instant? Based off the evidence you provided yourself, it is not. 1 billionth of a second is a nanosecond. A nanosecond does not happen at 0. It happens at 0.0000000001. Instant in it's adjective form happens at 0. Of course people question if that novel and various others are canon since Kishimoto only illustrated them and were written by various authors without being said to be supervised by Kishimoto. If you can prove the writer supervised them, then you can prove they're canon. I don't know much about the novels so I won't say they are or not canon. But so far i don't see anything that shows me the illusion of Tsukuyomi happens instantly.

Yoou showed a scan that was convenient to your argument in which you were saying tsukuyomi is 1 sec or more, with the scan supporting your argument when asuma said one sec itachi was talking and next sec kakashi dropped, yayyyy. Smart move. But not a fair one. The exact statement of the speed of tsukuyomi in the novel isone one-hundredth of one one-thousandth of one one-millionth of that of the real world 1/100,000,000,000th of a second and to back this up Kakashi in the ORIGINAL manga said that i see....three days in that realm and LESS than a moment passed in this one.[1]So it's definitely not exact instant but just still under a second is what i'll agree to now. Even if we were to somehow ignore this and work with asuma's statement do know that Kakashi has to take time to drop to the ground, which makes asuma's statement less reliable to get the exact speed of tsukuyomi in this case. All that aside, with that much speed, do remember Itachi wasn't trying to kill him...

In the manga Obito stated that Itachi killed his girlfriend, and he indeed did so in the novel. Kishimoto isn't a novelist, he's just a manga artist so that should explain it.

Flatzone wrote:
@Jason, unless the Author section also says Kishimotos name in it then we cannot confirm the canonicity of the book until a statement is given saying either way for each book and as you can see Kishi is not the author on these Shinden and Hiden books.

The book doesn't contradict the manga, Obito stated that Itachi killed his gf and indeed he did in the novel, Kishimoto can't be listed as an author without legally being one..he's just a manga artist, so he is instead listed as the creator. Btw boruto chapter 31 is out

BrainBrand wrote:
I'm using it how Kakashi used moment here: "Unh...I see in 3 days and less than a moment has passed in this one." Just replace moment with instant.

Why would I do that? A minute can mean instant as well. So I get to replace moment with minute with that logic. Moment can mean a variety of things from instant, second, nanosecond, short time, minute, as i clearly proved. You don't get to pick and choose which one. Kakashi clearly said instantly in his statement about Itachi having "you instantly". Instantly means 0 seconds. Therefore he is not talking about Tsukuyomi's illusion since Tsukuyomi's time frame is not defined clearly. And if @Jason is correct, then it still isn't right because a nanosecond happens. You have no proof that Tsukuyomi happens as fast as FTG's teleportation.

I read this on Dictionary.com: "A minute, properly denoting 60 seconds, is often used loosely for any very short space of time (and may be interchangeable with second ): I'll be there in just a minute."

Minute doesn't always mean 60 seconds. So in Kakashi's case, he likely meant less than a moment/instant/second passed.

Not proving your case about Tsukuyomi happening in 0 seconds.

A minute isn't always 60 seconds.

And it ain't always a second. So...

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:
tf..
Did you seriously think i'm talking about normal genjutsu? the entire discussion is about tsukuyomi.

Did you not seriously say "Killer Bee couldn't break basic genjutsu" which I replied with "Do you have a direct quote or a case from Kishimoto that says/or shows Bee is still clueless when it comes too Genjutsu?" which you replied with "What makes you think he'll devise a genjutsu counter measure" Hmm, looks clear as day we're talking about Bee being able to break Genjutsu in general.

You keep posting the statements by kishimoto about the uchiha's breaking tsukuyomi, yet Killer Bee isn't an Uchiha with the sharingan so why ohhhhhhh wyyyyyyyyyyy are you having so much trouble in just saying he can't beat tsukuyomi? you're just very thinly denying the authors statements.I never said that you said he can break it, it's just that you're not accepting that he can't...My proof is the same databook statement you keep using. What's yours?

Again, concurrently means at that time. Which means only Elite Uchiha up to chapter 244 could break Tsukuyomi. Anyone introduced or improved after that chapter is fair game since the 2nd Databook only covers up to chapter 244. So I don't need proof.

What the hell is in the quotation marks..i dont understand. What does it prove?

Don't play innocent. You clearly said I never mentioned at that time, that i kept saying that the elite sharingan wielders can break it, and only that. I clearly proved you were lying by showing you i not only said at that time, but you quoted me in saying it 3 days prior. Nice try.

still it doesn't change the fact that 'at that time' wasn't mentioned by Itachi or Kishimoto. Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labeled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors is the full text from the dbook, the use of concurrently (meanings: At the same time/Simultaneously) refers to the very few first lines of the writer speaking about sharingan needing to cast tsukuyomi and it also being the jutsu's weakness. To put it simply "The Sharingan is needed to cast tsukuyomi, at the same time the jutsu can be broken also by the sharingan" is how i see it.

That's very true. It can mean that. You should take that up with War. But i could care less who is right or wrong. My only point is Tsukuyomi is not unbreakable. I couldn't give a shit if Bee can break it or not. If me not saying he can't or can bothers you, oh well. Get over it.

Yoou showed a scan that was convenient to your argument in which you were saying tsukuyomi is 1 sec or more, with the scan supporting your argument when asuma said one sec itachi was talking and next sec kakashi dropped, yayyyy. Smart move. But not a fair one.

I like how you're (trying poorly) to come at me with funk when it was Brain who brought it up and left the details out and i was the one showing what he left out. Nice try. But it ain't working. Learn how to read and know what you're talking about before you butt in. Brain clearly said the Japanese coloured version of the manga has Asuma saying "as soon as itachi finished speaking Kakashi dropped"..and it has Kakashi saying that that it was only a "moment" that passed (focus on words with quotation marks).... I clearly show what Asuma said and said this shows us everything we need to know, proving him wrong. He clearly said Kakashi said moment. Why the hell do I need to post what Kakashi said if Brain already said he said moment? Did I ever deny Kakashi said moment? Did I argue that he didn't say moment? So exactly what is convenient about posting an image of something someone already said happened? Get over yourself, lol.

The exact statement of the speed of tsukuyomi in the novel isone one-hundredth of one one-thousandth of one one-millionth of that of the real world 1/100,000,000,000th of a second and to back this up Kakashi in the ORIGINAL manga said that i see....three days in that realm and LESS than a moment passed in this one.[1]So it's definitely not exact instant but just still under a second is what i'll agree to now. Even if we were to somehow ignore this and work with asuma's statement do know that Kakashi has to take time to drop to the ground, which makes asuma's statement less reliable to get the exact speed of tsukuyomi in this case. All that aside, with that much speed, do remember Itachi wasn't trying to kill him...

In the manga Obito stated that Itachi killed his girlfriend, and he indeed did so in the novel. Kishimoto isn't a novelist, he's just a manga artist so that should explain it.

I could continue arguing, but i already won. My argument is that it does not happen instantly. All you're doing is saying I'm right. So no point.

BrainBrand wrote:
- I agree that Itachi was controlling Sasuke's senses, but I'm not sure what your getting at or why you said it.

- We don't even have reliable evidence that Itachi even used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, during their last fight against each other. What about MIG Shinobi's argument, even if the Uchiha can break it, they wouldn't have the time to?

In the case of Tsukuyomi, for a Uchiha to break it within minutes in the illusion, which is 72 hours/1 second, their body (meaning their sharingan) would have to be able to react in that short time. You can see how this doesn't make sense, right? A sharingan has never broke a genjutsu even close to that fast before, unless we include the Sasuke fight, but we don't have reliable evidence that he even broke Tsukuyomi or if he did break it, if Itachi use Time Dilation.

I said it to prove that Itachi was actively in the Genjutsu rather than sending a precoded lump of chakra at the victim.

Black Zetsu was literally in that fight to provide exposition. He said it was Tsukuyomi. No evidence to the contrary.

The entire reason an Uchiha has a chance to break it is because they're experiencing all that time condensed. Their perceptions are sped up insanely by the very nature of the technique. I mean, think. Kakashi couldn't possibly normally talk or experience pain on the scale of 72 hours within one second. Itachi forced that upon him. He MADE Kakashi's perceptions increase just so he could feel pain. However, if the victim is a skilled Uchiha, then they have a chance to break out simply because they have all that time. It wouldn't be easy of course but it's possible.

JamesSenpai wrote:
Did you not seriously say "Killer Bee couldn't break basic genjutsu" which I replied with "Do you have a direct quote or a case from Kishimoto that says/or shows Bee is still clueless when it comes too Genjutsu?" which you replied with "What makes you think he'll devise a genjutsu counter measure" Hmm, looks clear as day we're talking about Bee being able to break Genjutsu in general.

I mentioned that he couldn't break basic genjutsu twice in the series, then i brought in tsukuyomi as a little comparison of power. Let me turn the table a little..where is your proof that Bee improved in genjutsu? you don't have one i know that much, so guess what, naturally we would work with the what we have presently and not hypothesis to your extent. We will work with the current bee's stats that is provided to us, he can't break genjutsu on his own and that's that. Even if he did create a genjutsu counter measure in the future for gods know why...i mean i have a tailed for that can literally break me out of them , what makes you think that it'll help him to get out of tsukuyomi? he hasn't even seen how to works to devise against it's mechanics. I sense something off here.

Again, concurrently means at that time. Which means only Elite Uchiha up to chapter 244 could break Tsukuyomi. Anyone introduced or improved after that chapter is fair game since the 2nd Databook only covers up to chapter 244. So I don't need proof.

Elaborate more, i don't quite get what you're getting at. By saying Anyone introduced or improved after that chapter is fair game are you referring to non uchiha's? if so then you're obviously contradicting the most spammed statement on this thread no matter if it stated that only skilled uchiha's can bypass it, and also you're contradicting a manga statement made by the character.....well providing if that's what you're saying.

Don't play innocent. You clearly said I never mentioned at that time, that i kept saying that the elite sharingan wielders can break it, and only that. I clearly proved you were lying by showing you i not only said at that time, but you quoted me in saying it 3 days prior. Nice try.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?

That's very true. It can mean that. You should take that up with War. But i could care less who is right or wrong. My only point is Tsukuyomi is not unbreakable. I couldn't give a shit if Bee can break it or not. If me not saying he can't or can bothers you, oh well. Get over it.

The point of this post is to prove that tsukuyomi can't be broken when used at it's fullest..so far it's usage against Izumi is the best definition of fullest as Itachi intended to kill at that time, on other cases it was no so, as Kakashi even proved it, and well he would'nt want to kill neither versions of Sasuke who were trapped in it. So which Uchiha, or which human in the narutoverse has a nerve transmission speed that rivals 1 nano second? even the speed of light when covering distance seems slow in that realm of time. Surely for Itachi to use Genjutsu reverse on Kurenai he must need chakra to execute the command, similarly for Uchiha's to break tsukuyomi they must have consciousness at full in order to release chakra to break the genjutsu..which is impossible in this case. With that aside it's even worst for non sharingan users, say Sakura for example, or better yet let's use Killer Bee :) . For a non sharingan user to break genjutsu they have to weave a hand seal....and well i don't think i need to say more here. They are done for 100% guaranteed.

I like how you're (trying poorly) to come at me with funk when it was Brain who brought it up and left the details out and i was the one showing what he left out. Nice try. But it ain't working. Learn how to read and know what you're talking about before you butt in. Brain clearly said the Japanese coloured version of the manga has Asuma saying "as soon as itachi finished speaking Kakashi dropped"..and it has Kakashi saying that that it was only a "moment" that passed (focus on words with quotation marks).... I clearly show what Asuma said and said this shows us everything we need to know, proving him wrong. He clearly said Kakashi said moment. Why the hell do I need to post what Kakashi said if Brain already said he said moment? Did I ever deny Kakashi said moment? Did I argue that he didn't say moment? So exactly what is convenient about posting an image of something someone already said happened? Get over yourself, lol.

I'm just gonna ignore all statements made by you which proves that you're full of yourself. Seems like you're the one who needs reading lessons, because it was I who made the statement about the coloured manga and not @BrainBrand, canyways nvm that now.

I could continue arguing, but i already won. My argument is that it does not happen instantly. All you're doing is saying I'm right. So no point.

Except your definition of instant is 0.00000 seconds, which is not even possible to comprehend, time loses it logic there😂...instant can surely refer to without delay or immediately...a nano seconds laughs at those two terms.

Elaborate more, i don't quite get what you're getting at. By saying Anyone introduced or improved after that chapter is fair game are you referring to non uchiha's? if so then you're obviously contradicting the most spammed statement on this thread no matter if it stated that only skilled uchiha's can bypass it, and also you're contradicting a manga statement made by the character.....well providing if that's what you're saying.

I don't understand you. @James was right and the explanation given was well said. How is that a contradiction? Novel feats are not canon btw, I know you like to use them to make your points, but sorry.

Ninja Of War wrote:
I don't understand you. @James was right and the explanation given was well said. How is that a contradiction? Novel feats are not canon btw, I know you like to use them to make your points, but sorry.

I won't reply directly as yet,just to clarify are you also saying that non sharingan wielders can break tsukuyomi?

I don't know if you saw my previous posts or not, so I'll clarify my stance.

In one of my first posts on this thread, I questioned the assumed authority that Itachi apparently has, regarding the requirements to break Tsukuyomi. 1) What makes users accept Itachi's statement as valid? 2) What gives Itachi authority to limit the abilities of other shinobi? 3) How and where did Itachi find this out?

@James replied to me, stating that sometimes the author speaks through certain characters. Well, that certainly is true, however simply being a character statement doesn't automatically equal an author statement as well. @James added that the databook had an entry on Tsukuyomi. So, if we only took the manga, all we have is a character statement from Itachi.

Let's say we include the databook, and accept the entire entry about Tsukuyomi: "Concurrently, only those posses the Sharingan and Kekkei genkai can defeat Tsukuyomi." Paraphrased, however the word concurrently persists. This refers to as it stands now. So, bringing it full circle, from the manga only:

Itachi's character statement about Tsukuyomi doesn't give him the authority to limit the abilities of other shinobi.

From manga+databook: Itachi has the authority for that time period only to his knowledge, through the use of the literal entry from the databook.

If you want to argue about the use of the word "Concurrently" that is fine. My issue was Itachi limiting others with assumed authority, which I have shown is not true.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:
I mentioned that he couldn't break basic genjutsu twice in the series, then i brought in tsukuyomi as a little comparison of power. Let me turn the table a little..where is your proof that Bee improved in genjutsu? you don't have one i know that much, so guess what, naturally we would work with the what we have presently and not hypothesis to your extent. We will work with the current bee's stats that is provided to us, he can't break genjutsu on his own and that's that. Even if he did create a genjutsu counter measure in the future for gods know why...i mean i have a tailed for that can literally break me out of them , what makes you think that it'll help him to get out of tsukuyomi? he hasn't even seen how to works to devise against it's mechanics. I sense something off here.

The fact you already gave that argument saying Bee wouldn't create a Genjutsu counter cause of Gyuki, shows we have been talking about Genjutsu in this subject. And no it don't work like that. To think someone is exactly the same as they were after over 10 years pass is not only idiotic but blind. That's the equivalent of saying Future Boruto is exactly the same as current Boruto. Pure shit.

Elaborate more, i don't quite get what you're getting at. By saying Anyone introduced or improved after that chapter is fair game are you referring to non uchiha's? if so then you're obviously contradicting the most spammed statement on this thread no matter if it stated that only skilled uchiha's can bypass it, and also you're contradicting a manga statement made by the character.....well providing if that's what you're saying.

Again you would have to argue with that with War. When the argument arised between me and War about only Uchiha's being able to break free from Genjutsu, he countered me and said concurrently was used and can mean "at this time". I agreed and continue onwards with that logic. No i have not contradicted anything. Cause I have said numerous times that Elite Uchihas can break it, and after me and War's debate I never said only they could do it. The fact that you keep trying to get me to say Bee can't break Tsukuyomi for god knows what reason, proves that. So what are you on about?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?

Bruh do you argue to argue or something? 23 hours ago you literally said i been only saying (only) Uchihas can break Tsukuyomi. [1] Which was clearly a lie because just four days ago you quoted me saying [2] Nice try. You got caught in a lie. I obviously never said only Uchiha could break it once me and War established that possibility in our debate. So quit feigning ignorance.

The point of this post is to prove that tsukuyomi can't be broken when used at it's fullest..so far it's usage against Izumi is the best definition of fullest as Itachi intended to kill at that time, on other cases it was no so, as Kakashi even proved it, and well he would'nt want to kill neither versions of Sasuke who were trapped in it. So which Uchiha, or which human in the narutoverse has a nerve transmission speed that rivals 1 nano second? even the speed of light when covering distance seems slow in that realm of time. Surely for Itachi to use Genjutsu reverse on Kurenai he must need chakra to execute the command, similarly for Uchiha's to break tsukuyomi they must have consciousness at full in order to release chakra to break the genjutsu..which is impossible in this case. With that aside it's even worst for non sharingan users, say Sakura for example, or better yet let's use Killer Bee :) . For a non sharingan user to break genjutsu they have to weave a hand seal....and well i don't think i need to say more here. They are done for 100% guaranteed.

Except your thesis has a major flaw. Kishimoto and Itachi's word. They said an Elite Uchiha can break it. They didn't say without time dilation. They said Tsukuyomi. What is Tsukuyomi? A Genjutsu that Itachi controls which he can manipulate even the perception of time. That means an elite uchiha can break what is Tsukuyomi, including it's time dilation, since time dilation is a component that makes Tsukuyomi, Tsukuyomi. I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about that.

I'm just gonna ignore all statements made by you which proves that you're full of yourself. Seems like you're the one who needs reading lessons, because it was I who made the statement about the coloured manga and not @BrainBrand, canyways nvm that now.

Go ahead and ignore them. It doesn't change the fact you sat there acting like I left Kakashi's statement out to just do it when it was you who left Asuma's true statement out. Thanks for pointing that out. Now you just proved you did something hypocritical. You tried horribly to come at me in a negative fashion, trying to say i left Kakashi's statement out for personal gain, but in the end i was only showing the rest of the people what you left out. You had already said what Kakashi said. I never denied it. No one denied it. So there was no reason to post something irrelevent that everyone already knew. What they didn't know was Asuma's true statement which you left out.

Except your definition of instant is 0.00000 seconds, which is not even possible to comprehend, time loses it logic there😂...instant can surely refer to without delay or immediately...a nano seconds laughs at those two terms.

Except that's not the word we are debating about. I'm starting to see a pattern on how you don't even know what the debate is about. We were originally talking about Kakashi stating instantly to describe the illusion of Tsukuyomi or to describe the casting of Tsukuyomi. I'm pretty sure it was you, who said it was about the illusion transpiring instantly. I said it was about the casting itself. Instantly happens immediately which means at once without any intervening time or space. That means at 0 seconds. You have not proved it happens at 0 seconds, you actually have been proving yourself wrong.

Ninja of War wrote:
@James replied to me, stating that sometimes the author speaks through certain characters. Well, that certainly is true, however simply being a character statement doesn't automatically equal an author statement as well. @James added that the databook had an entry on Tsukuyomi. So, if we only took the manga, all we have is a character statement from Itachi.

Well to be more precise. You asked what gives Itachi the authority to limit the abilities of other shinobi? Which I replied with Kishimoto who stated the same thing which is a reference to the 2nd Databook entry of him saying the same thing as Itachi about only Uchiha with Sharingan being able to break it with the added element of them also being elites. Then you countered with the word concurrently and i conceded to your point, and accepted my mistake.

Why would I do that? A minute can mean instant as well. So I get to replace moment with minute with that logic. Moment can mean a variety of things from instant, second, nanosecond, short time, minute, as i clearly proved. You don't get to pick and choose which one. Kakashi clearly said instantly in his statement about Itachi having "you instantly". Instantly means 0 seconds. Therefore he is not talking about Tsukuyomi's illusion since Tsukuyomi's time frame is not defined clearly. And if @Jason is correct, then it still isn't right because a nanosecond happens. You have no proof that Tsukuyomi happens as fast as FTG's teleportation.

- You can't replace it with the 60 seconds meaning of minute though. It lasted less than a second, considering what Asuma said.

- What was Kakashi talking about in chapter 257 when he said "he has you instantly", if he wasn't talking about the duration of Tsukuyomi?

Not proving your case about Tsukuyomi happening in 0 seconds.

I didn't make a case about Tsukuyomi happening in 0 seconds, but...if I use this defintion of the adjective form of instant it can mean quick:

Ninja Of War wrote:
From manga+databook: Itachi has the authority for that time period only to his knowledge, through the use of the literal entry from the databook.

If you want to argue about the use of the word "Concurrently" that is fine. My issue was Itachi limiting others with assumed authority, which I have shown is not true.

I accept your point, it was fair enough, What i get is 'itachi didn't survey the planet yet he went on to make such a statement. But then they went on to show us that Itachi's statement can actually be true when they use a prodigious ninja, a master of arts as a guinea pig, he could'nt break it even with skills or the sharingan, and even after years later Kakashi still stated that there was nothing that one can do against that jutsu, hence proving Itachi right even years after, well for that specific ninja and others below him. Then we have guys like Danzou, Killer Bee, Ay, Orochimaru ..pretty top tier dudes all getting screwed/tricked by basic genjutsu further in the timeline, needless to say what tsukuyomi will do. That leaves guys like Hashirama who we know nothing about genjutsu wise. But it's safe to say anyone (except elite uchiha and elite uchiha related characters ofc) below Hashirama get's stomped by Tsukuyomi based on showings. Then now Itachi's statement was later contradicted when super characters like the otsutsuki's were introduced hence proving you right based on what exactly though? they're strong? they have jutsu's of high attack potency? that means they can't be beaten? lol reverse sexy jutsu worked on Kaguya so that logic is now irrelevant, we can add Hashirama to this as well....not that i said you said anything like that or anything.

Now regarding my version of the use of the word 'concurrently' kindly point out the flaws in this opinion.>>>

the use of concurrently (meanings: At the same time/Simultaneously) refers to the very few first lines of the writer speaking about sharingan needing to cast tsukuyomi and it also being the jutsu's weakness. To put it simply "The Sharingan is needed to cast tsukuyomi, at the same time the jutsu can be broken also by the sharingan" is how i see it

JamesSenpai wrote:
The fact you already gave that argument saying Bee wouldn't create a Genjutsu counter cause of Gyuki, shows we have been talking about Genjutsu in this subject. And no it don't work like that. To think someone is exactly the same as they were after over 10 years pass is not only idiotic but blind. That's the equivalent of saying Future Boruto is exactly the same as current Boruto. Pure shit.

Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu......
Except your comparison is a little off, Killer Bee is an adult and already experienced and way powerful and to say that Bee would just sit and decide to learn how to break genjutsu is so not like the character...i bet gyuki would be laughing and field offended at that point, the dude is a swordsman what do swordsman improve in? ask suigetsu,& zoro... WhereaS. Boruto is a kid and will have to definitely improve..as did every kid...
This argument is pointless, to our knowledge has can't break tsukuyomi case closed.

Again you would have to argue with that with War.

On it.

Bruh do you argue to argue or something? 23 hours ago you literally said i been only saying (only) Uchihas can break Tsukuyomi. [1] Which was clearly a lie because just four days ago you quoted me saying [2] Nice try. You got caught in a lie. I obviously never said only Uchiha could break it once me and War established that possibility in our debate. So quit feigning ignorance.

Honestly im lost on this one..take the win,

Except your thesis has a major flaw. Kishimoto and Itachi's word. They said an Elite Uchiha can break it. They didn't say without time dilation. They said Tsukuyomi. What is Tsukuyomi? A Genjutsu that Itachi controls which he can manipulate even the perception of time. That means an elite uchiha can break what is Tsukuyomi, including it's time dilation, since time dilation is a component that makes Tsukuyomi, Tsukuyomi. I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about that.

Please look at the title of the post. Even after stating the stuffs about the elite uchihas capable of breaking tsukuyomi it still wents on say this The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster's to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency. to yeild maximum efficiency.....even on the uchiha's? hmmmm

You had already said what Kakashi said. I never denied it. No one denied it. So there was no reason to post something irrelevent that everyone already knew. What they didn't know was Asuma's true statement which you left out.

Oh boy..so it's a consensus that Kakashi's statement is well known and proved tsukuyomi to be faster compared to Asuma's statement. But you then went to use asuma's statement which at that time you were saying this *But it happens in a matter of seconds as shown in the series and said on the Tsukuyomi page. If a second or two passes, it isn't instant...convenience. Then this

Also, this shows everything we need to know [1] A Viz scan. Only a second had passed. So it isn't instant...i rest my case.

.

Except that's not the word we are debating about. I'm starting to see a pattern on how you don't even know what the debate is about. We were originally talking about Kakashi stating instantly to describe the illusion of Tsukuyomi or to describe the casting of Tsukuyomi. I'm pretty sure it was you, who said it was about the illusion transpiring instantly. I said it was about the casting itself. Instantly happens immediately which means at once without any intervening time or space. That means at 0 seconds. You have not proved it happens at 0 seconds, you actually have been proving yourself wrong.

Except the shippuden statement made by kakashi is not what i was talking about, that argument was dead. The word moment, further translated to instant is what we were talking about. Show me a screenshot of instant meaning 0.00 seconds loll.

BrainBrand wrote:
- What was Kakashi talking about in chapter 257 when he said "he has you instantly", if he wasn't talking about the duration of Tsukuyomi?

The casting of the Genjutsu itself. You look into his eyes, Itachi has you instantly. That's how I see it. Based off the evidence Jason provided, it is cemented since instantly has to transpire at 0 seconds.

BrainBrand wrote:
I didn't make a case about Tsukuyomi happening in 0 seconds, but...if I use this defintion of the adjective form of instant it can mean quick:

You joined in on the argument between me and Jason determining if the cast or if the illusion itself happens instantly. Jason had used Kakashi's statement of moment as evidence to support the illusion being instantly transpiring. That was what the debate was about. And you can't use that adjective definition of instant, because you're using it's definition of moment so it can replace it. Therefore it means a moment. Not that, lol. You can't change a words meaning to replace a word, then change it's meaning to different situational usage. You have to stick with one definition. Especially when both definitions conflict. Especially when you are using it's noun form to replace the word moment. You can't just replace a word with it's noun meaning then change it to it's adjective form, grammar don't work like that lol.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:
Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu...... Except your comparison is a little off, Killer Bee is an adult and already experienced and way powerful and to say that Bee would just sit and decide to learn how to break genjutsu is so not like the character...i bet gyuki would be laughing and field offended at that point, the dude is a swordsman what do swordsman improve in? ask suigetsu,& zoro... WhereaS. Boruto is a kid and will have to definitely improve..as did every kid... This argument is pointless, to our knowledge has can't break tsukuyomi case closed.

Maybe because someone mind bombed him to the point he had to be warned by the guy mind bombing him? If I got caught in a Genjutsu by a guy who was helping me beat him, and had to be warned i was in Genjutsu by that guy, i would very much improve in that regard. Only an idiot would be like "I'm okay as is". Bee and Gyuki didn't even realize they were in Genjutsu until Itachi turned into crows. That's cause my dude Itachi wild. But regardless I'm not saying whether bee can or can't for the same reason I wouldn't say Hashirama could or couldn't. Cause the info isn't there. You can all you want. But that's just based on your opinion and not the series. That is, unless you prove Ninja wrong.

Please look at the title of the post. Even after stating the stuffs about the elite uchihas capable of breaking tsukuyomi it still wents on say this The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster's to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency. to yeild maximum efficiency.....even on the uchiha's? hmmmm

That just means he can make it as best as it can be. Doesn't mean it can't be broken lol.

Oh boy..so it's a consensus that Kakashi's statement is well known and proved tsukuyomi to be faster compared to Asuma's statement. But you then went to use asuma's statement which at that time you were saying this *But it happens in a matter of seconds as shown in the series and said on the Tsukuyomi page. If a second or two passes, it isn't instant...convenience. Then this

Also, this shows everything we need to know [1] A Viz scan. Only a second had passed. So it isn't instant...i rest my case.

If everyone can read what you say and read what I say, then what the heck did i leave out? Did Kakashi say something not stated in this thread? Nope. So I left nothing out. Did you not say Kakashi said moment before i posted Asuma's TRUE statement? Yes. Can everyone read it just like my post? Yes. So nothing is left out. However, you said that Asuma said " was as soon as itachi stopped talking Kakashi dropped to the ground" that means you were saying as soon as Itachi stopped talking, kakashi was falling too his knees, implying the illusion was performed instantly. I merely corrected that. By the way, Kakashi saying moment doesn't conflict with a second, lol. So nice try. You were the one conveniently leaving out Asuma's real statement, but trying to frame me for that for just proving you wrong? Nah, not happening. Everyone can read. Quit trying to play the credibility game, it ain't working. You can't accuse someone (who corrected you) of doing something you, yourself did. In fact, you went above and beyond and twisted the statement. So are we really going to continue this convo? I rest MY case.

Except the shippuden statement made by kakashi is not what i was talking about, that argument was dead. The word moment, further translated to instant is what we were talking about. Show me a screenshot of instant meaning 0.00 seconds loll.

Lol, are you okay dude? Do you not know why we're even on this subject? We were debating over that statement, of him having you instantly. You used Kakashi's moment statement as evidence too that. So no it's not dead. We're still and have been discussing your evidence. Catch up bro. We were literally discussing if instantly referred to the Illusion or the cast. You brought up Asuma's false statement as proof. I said not proof. You then brought up Kakashi's moment statement as proof, and we been discussing it ever since. Take a break bro, lol. Seems you need to collect yourself. The debates not going anywhere.

AsianReaper wrote:
I said it to prove that Itachi was actively in the Genjutsu rather than sending a precoded lump of chakra at the victim.

Black Zetsu was literally in that fight to provide exposition. He said it was Tsukuyomi. No evidence to the contrary.

The entire reason an Uchiha has a chance to break it is because they're experiencing all that time condensed. Their perceptions are sped up insanely by the very nature of the technique. I mean, think. Kakashi couldn't possibly normally talk or experience pain on the scale of 72 hours within one second. Itachi forced that upon him. He MADE Kakashi's perceptions increase just so he could feel pain. However, if the victim is a skilled Uchiha, then they have a chance to break out simply because they have all that time. It wouldn't be easy of course but it's possible.

Itachi could of possibly made the illusion Kakashi experienced loop and just maintain control over the genjutsu without changing anything. Above all, it wouldn't make sense for Itachi to experience such extreme time dilation, because Tsukuyomi used on the opponent, not himself. He would have no way that we know to cause such an extreme increase perception on himself. What made Black Zetsu think that illusion was Tsukuyomi? Unless we know that, how can we say that Black Zetsu was reliable evidence?

You think that any Uchiha who gets put in Tsukuyomi, has all that time to break out of it due to their perception, right? I think it's the opposite, that they don't have enough time to break out it, because even if the perception is increased massively, the sharingan's ability to see through illusions hasn't been speed up as much, at least IMO.

Partially, I believe this because of Kakashi stating to Chiyo "...it has nothing to do with whether you can defeat genjutsu or not."

Itachi could of possibly made the illusion Kakashi experienced loop and just maintain control over the genjutsu without changing anything. Above all, it wouldn't make sense for Itachi to experience such extreme time dilation, because Tsukuyomi used on the opponent, not himself. He would have no way that we know to cause such an extreme increase perception on himself. What made Black Zetsu think that illusion was Tsukuyomi? Unless we know that, how can we say that Black Zetsu was reliable evidence?

You think that any Uchiha who gets put in Tsukuyomi, has all that time to break out of it due to their perception, right? I think it's the opposite, that they don't have enough time to break out it, because even if the perception is increased massively, the sharingan's ability to see through illusions hasn't been speed up as much, at least IMO.

Partially, I believe this because of Kakashi stating to Chiyo "...it has nothing to do with whether you can defeat genjutsu or not."

Black Zetsu has been around since Kaguya, he probably can recognize the technique from when he's seen Itachi use it before.

So you think their Sharingan lags behind their perception? But their regular eyes keep up with the increased perception? Lol what do you mean? They experience all 5 senses being messed with. If Kakashi is looking around in Tsukuyomi and sees all 72 hours of the events within a second, his Sharingan is there too. Kakashi's processing speed has been sped up. All of it. His ability to feel pain, his ability to think, etc. His Sharingan isn't suddenly exempt from it. He's looking through his Sharingan.

Also I don't think any Uchiha can break out. Only the most skilled.

What Kakashi said to Chiyo is irrelevant because they aren't Uchiha. Chiyo said they could break each other out of Genjutsu by disrupting their partner's chakra. However, it doesn't matter if Chiyo could disrupt Kakashi's chakra or not; he'd be hit with the damage before Chiyo got there. That's why he said it didn't matter whether they could defeat Genjutsu or not. Because the victim is the only one who could possibly break it, and they have to be an Uchiha to even stand a chance.

The casting of the Genjutsu itself. You look into his eyes, Itachi has you instantly. That's how I see it. Based off the evidence Jason provided, it is cemented since instantly has to transpire at 0 seconds.

So your saying that Kakashi was warning Chiyo and Co. that Tsukuyomi happens as soon as he looks you in the eye, and Kakashi wasn't referencing the duration of Tsukuyomi? How does that make sense? Why would Kakashi reference how long it takes you get into the genjutsu and why would that be relevant to what he said next about it having nothing to do with whether or not they can break genjutsu?

BrainBrand wrote:

You joined in on the argument between me and Jason determining if the cast or if the illusion itself happens instantly. Jason had used Kakashi's statement of moment as evidence to support the illusion being instantly transpiring. That was what the debate was about. And you can't use that adjective definition of instant, because you're using it's definition of moment so it can replace it. Therefore it means a moment. Not that, lol. You can't change a words meaning to replace a word, then change it's meaning to different situational usage. You have to stick with one definition. Especially when both definitions conflict. Especially when you are using it's noun form to replace the word moment. You can't just replace a word with it's noun meaning then change it to it's adjective form, grammar don't work like that lol.

The reason I said "If I use the adjective form of instant, it can mean quick" is, because you said sometime before that, that I was using the adjective form of instant. So I was saying if you were correct in stating that, then I could use quick as a definition for the adjective form of instant or at least I meant to say that. Sorry if I wasn't more clear.

So your saying that Kakashi was warning Chiyo and Co. that Tsukuyomi happens as soon as he looks you in the eye, and Kakashi wasn't referencing the duration of Tsukuyomi? How does that make sense? Why would Kakashi reference how long it takes you get into the genjutsu and why would that be relevant to what he said next about it having nothing to do with whether or not they can break genjutsu?

Yes cause it doesn't happen instantly, lol. That would mean Tsukuyomi happens at 0 seconds. Jason, the guy who has been arguing for that, has proven you and himself wrong with the evidence he provided. It's really that simple.

For the other point about Instant. If that's what you wanna do, go ahead, still doesn't help your case. You have to prove it happens at 0 seconds for you to win this debate since that is what the debate is about and you are arguing against me when I'm saying it doesn't happen instantly.

So Tsukuyomi increases Itachi's own perception to 72 hours/1 second? I still don't see how Itachi being the castor of Tsukuyomi increases Itachi perception, just because Itachi is controlling their cranial nerve. We don't know if Itachi is actively controlling the illusion of Tsukuyomi, but your theory runs into a problem. Tsukuyomi increases the opponent's perception by manipulating their brain through genjutsu. Since Itachi doesn't manipulate his own brain through that genjutsu, than it should be impossible for him to increase own time perception through Tsukuyomi.

Being the castor shouldn't change that.

Black Zetsu has been around since Kaguya, he probably can recognize the technique from when he's seen Itachi use it before.

Itachi may have been the only one who could use Tsukuyomi. How would Zetsu recognize, with 100% certainty, Itachi's using Tsukuyomi? As far as Zetsu knows Itachi could be using a different genjutsu.

So you think their Sharingan lags behind their perception? But their regular eyes keep up with the increased perception? Lol what do you mean? They experience all 5 senses being messed with. If Kakashi is looking around in Tsukuyomi and sees all 72 hours of the events within a second, his Sharingan is there too. Kakashi's processing speed has been sped up. All of it. His ability to feel pain, his ability to think, etc. His Sharingan isn't suddenly exempt from it. He's looking through his Sharingan.

It's not their eyes that are seeing in the illusion, it's just an illusion. Kakashi wasn't even actually seeing multiple Itachi's stab him in Tsukuyomi, because in reality there was only one itachi, he didn't even have sword. It's just like when were dreaming, our eyes aren't actually seeing monsters and whatever were dreaming about, it's just a dream. It's a similar principle with genjutsu. Our eyes are closed as well when were dreaming so we can't be seeing anything.

Also I don't think any Uchiha can break out. Only the most skilled.

What Kakashi said to Chiyo is irrelevant because they aren't Uchiha. Chiyo said they could break each other out of Genjutsu by disrupting their partner's chakra. However, it doesn't matter if Chiyo could disrupt Kakashi's chakra or not; he'd be hit with the damage before Chiyo got there. That's why he said it didn't matter whether they could defeat Genjutsu or not. Because the victim is the only one who could possibly break it, and they have to be an Uchiha to even stand a chance.

What Kakashi said is relevant. He implied even if it was possible for Chiyo to break Tsukuyomi, that whatever method she uses, won't work because she won't have time. So even if Chiyo could break out of it on her own, if Tsukuyomi was longer, it wouldn't make a difference, because it's over before she could break it.

JamesSenpai wrote:
The casting of the Genjutsu itself. You look into his eyes, Itachi has you instantly. That's how I see it. Based off the evidence Jason provided, it is cemented since instantly has to transpire at 0 seconds.

That doesn't make sense man, even if he has you in the genjutsu instantly the partner method would've still worked...but no kakashi denied that when he said it doesn't matter if you can break genjutsu or not. SO YEAh he was referring to the speed at which the jutsu is being executed at which is instant,they can't be of no help against an instantaneous mental attack...no matter how good the caster is at genjutsu the partner method would just overcome it as seen when Madara placed Ay under genjutsu, Ohnoki later frees him after 4 seconds or so, but unless the jutsu is instantaneous like tsukuyomi the partner method or normal method simply becomes useless so in this case just before Ohnoki even tries to rush to free the raikage he would've already been done for which is exactly what Kakashi was referring to so he instead instructed them to avoid eye contact...

Maybe because someone mind bombed him to the point he had to be warned by the guy mind bombing him? If I got caught in a Genjutsu by a guy who was helping me beat him, and had to be warned i was in Genjutsu by that guy, i would very much improve in that regard. Only an idiot would be like "I'm okay as is". Bee and Gyuki didn't even realize they were in Genjutsu until Itachi turned into crows. That's cause my dude Itachi wild. But regardless I'm not saying whether bee can or can't for the same reason I wouldn't say Hashirama could or couldn't. Cause the info isn't there. You can all you want. But that's just based on your opinion and not the series. That is, unless you prove Ninja wrong.

Oh fudgkenwngwoeigbwgpb4gijgg;leg-94hnw.....did BEEEEEEE learn any new genjutsu countermeasure that you know of presently? noooooooooooo....the answer is N-O..it's that simple, you don't know of it, there is no proof of it, then the obvious conclusion is that it doesn't exist. You're just posing theories and theories aren't always right. Bee is already a fully developed character just like Naruto and Sasuke is. Tsukuyomi>>> Bee.

ME

BEE can't break it because of the db statements and itachi's statements.

He can't break it because of the fact that he struggled against genjutsu's of lower calibre

You

I don't know maybe he can break it because in the future he learned how to,,,,but i have no proof of this because it never happened.

That just means he can make it as best as it can be. Doesn't mean it can't be broken lol.

As you did before on certain words, like the word moment i want you to also use the literal rule to deduce what exactly he meant by stating maximum efficiency. Efficiency is derived from efficient and has the following meaning >>capable of producing the desired effect.

If everyone can read what you say and read what I say, then what the heck did i leave out? Did Kakashi say something not stated in this thread? Nope. So I left nothing out. Did you not say Kakashi said moment before i posted Asuma's TRUE statement? Yes. Can everyone read it just like my post? Yes. So nothing is left out. However, you said that Asuma said " was as soon as itachi stopped talking Kakashi dropped to the ground" that means you were saying as soon as Itachi stopped talking, kakashi was falling too his knees, implying the illusion was performed instantly. I merely corrected that. By the way, Kakashi saying moment doesn't conflict with a second, lol. So nice try. You were the one conveniently leaving out Asuma's real statement, but trying to frame me for that for just proving you wrong?

Lol, are you okay dude? Do you not know why we're even on this subject? We were debating over that statement, of him having you instantly. You used Kakashi's moment statement as evidence too that. So no it's not dead. We're still and have been discussing your evidence. Catch up bro. We were literally discussing if instantly referred to the Illusion or the cast. You brought up Asuma's false statement as proof. I said not proof. You then brought up Kakashi's moment statement as proof, and we been discussing it ever since. Take a break bro, lol. Seems you need to collect yourself. The debates not going anywhere.

I just stated i wasn't talking about shippuden's scene. Did you even know what you just typed dude. The shippuden scene has kakashi specifically saying instant, the 'Naruto' scene has Kakashi saying Moment. I'm debating on the Naruto/Moment scene not shippuden which is exactly what you said in whatever you typed here, mentioning ASUMA and Kakashi saying moment is just you proving me right when i said i said i was talking about the naruto scene.. Prove me wrong with visual evidence. Also i see no proof of instant meaning 0.00 seconds..(btw the 'instant' im talking about is the one that was translated from 'moment')

Then now Itachi's statement was later contradicted when super characters like the otsutsuki's were introduced hence proving you right based on what exactly though? they're strong? they have jutsu's of high attack potency? that means they can't be beaten? lol reverse sexy jutsu worked on Kaguya so that logic is now irrelevant, we can add Hashirama to this as well....not that i said you said anything like that or anything.

Now regarding my version of the use of the word 'concurrently' kindly point out the flaws in this opinion.>>>

the use of concurrently (meanings: At the same time/Simultaneously) refers to the very few first lines of the writer speaking about sharingan needing to cast tsukuyomi and it also being the jutsu's weakness. To put it simply "The Sharingan is needed to cast tsukuyomi, at the same time the jutsu can be broken also by the sharingan" is how i see it

On your first point directed to me, I'm not proving anything. I'm looking at the merits for Itachi's claimed authority. Currently, there is a character statement and a databook entry. Secondly, lol , I find it entertaining that you use strange logic and comparisons, then discard it. (Note: Not mean't to be insulting)

For your proposed version of the use of the word "concurrently". Well, it's obvious that Tsukuyomi is a MS ability, so the Sharingan is needed to cast it. However, the line where the word "concurrently" is used, follows basic sentence structure. Basic sentence structure, requires "Time", "Manner" and "Place". "Time" part of the sentence is on it's correct place with the use of the word "Concurrently", with the meaning "As it stands now".

That indicates that the meaning is reduced to that sentence, not referring to a previous sentence. Also, It's not necessary to explain extremely obvious things twice, particularly in a databook.

So Tsukuyomi increases Itachi's own perception to 72 hours/1 second? I still don't see how Itachi being the castor of Tsukuyomi increases Itachi perception, just because Itachi is controlling their cranial nerve. We don't know if Itachi is actively controlling the illusion of Tsukuyomi, but your theory runs into a problem. Tsukuyomi increases the opponent's perception by manipulating their brain through genjutsu. Since Itachi doesn't manipulate his own brain through that genjutsu, than it should be impossible for him to increase own time perception through Tsukuyomi.

Being the castor shouldn't change that.

Itachi may have been the only one who could use Tsukuyomi. How would Zetsu recognize, with 100% certainty, Itachi's using Tsukuyomi? As far as Zetsu knows Itachi could be using a different genjutsu.

It's not their eyes that are seeing in the illusion, it's just an illusion. Kakashi wasn't even actually seeing multiple Itachi's stab him in Tsukuyomi, because in reality there was only one itachi, he didn't even have sword. It's just like when were dreaming, our eyes aren't actually seeing monsters and whatever were dreaming about, it's just a dream. It's a similar principle with genjutsu. Our eyes are closed as well when were dreaming so we can't be seeing anything.

What Kakashi said is relevant. He implied even if it was possible for Chiyo to break Tsukuyomi, that whatever method she uses, won't work because she won't have time. So even if Chiyo could break out of it on her own, if Tsukuyomi was longer, it wouldn't make a difference, because it's over before she could break it.

Yes, when Itachi uses Tsukuyomi, he's actively altering their perceptions. So he's there with them torturing them. My theory doesn't run into any problems; by nature of the technique, Itachi's perceptions are sped up to match so he can actively hurt his opponent. You don't know that he doesn't manipulate his own brain; in fact, there's more evidence that he's in the Genjutsu torturing them than evidence to the contrary.

Why wouldn't being the castor change that?

If you read my response, I said "When he's seen Itachi use it before." Even if Itachi was the only user, the fact that Zetsu knew the technique at all shows that he's seen it before and can recognize it. BTW, all throughout that fight, Zetsu noticed Itachi was off. Every time Itachi didn't dodge or was sloppy, Zetsu noticed and said something. He never once questioned Itachi's usage of Tsukuyomi, but instead praised Sasuke for breaking it.

Kakashi looked Itachi in the eye and Itachi got Kakashi in an illusion. That illusion is passed through their eyes until Tsukuyomi is over, which happens in like a second. So Kakashi was looking at Itachi's Mangekyo with his own Sharingan the entire time. If that were an Uchiha, they could break the technique because the technique is being passed through their own eyes; their own Sharingan. And with the added processing speed that Itachi essentially gives the victim, they have a shot at breaking the Genjutsu.

Two issues with your last argument. Kakashi's statements aren't relevant to this discussion because he's refering to everyone there, who are non Uchihas. Meaning none of them can break Tsukuyomi on their own. The partner method would work on any other Genjutsu, but not this Tsukuyomi because they'd never reach their partner in time.

Here's the second issue; if Kakashi really was implying that if Chiyo could break out herself, it'd be useless, who is Kakashi to give that information out? He's experienced Tsukuyomi once, and he couldn't break out even with his Sharingan. What makes him the leading authority on Tsukuyomi, and what gives his word more weight than the actual user of the technique? Kakashi couldn't possibly know that it'd be useless even if you could break out on your own. Because as far as he knows, it's impossible even with the Sharingan. Unless you're an Uchiha, like Itachi said.

Jason of Mangekyou wrote: "That doesn't make sense man, even if he has you in the genjutsu instantly the partner method would've still worked...but no kakashi denied that when he said it doesn't matter if you can break genjutsu or not. SO YEAh he was referring to the speed at which the jutsu is being executed at which is instant,they can't be of no help against an instantaneous mental attack...no matter how good the caster is at genjutsu the partner method would just overcome it as seen when Madara placed Ay under genjutsu, Ohnoki later frees him after 4 seconds or so, but unless the jutsu is instantaneous like tsukuyomi the partner method or normal method simply becomes useless so in this case just before Ohnoki even tries to rush to free the raikage he would've already been done for which is exactly what Kakashi was referring to so he instead instructed them to avoid eye contact..."

Why would the partner method with non Uchiha work when Kishimoto and Itachi stated before Kakashi even seen Itachi again, that only Uchiha with Sharingan can break it? You make no sense. Why would Kishimoto say Uchiha can break it when they cannot? You have no argument. Kishimoto said they can. Doesn't matter how unfathomable it is too you. What is Tsukuyomi? It's a Genjutsu that Itachi controls to the point he affects the perception of time itself. Who can break it? Elite Uchiha with Sharingan. That is without a doubt a fact. You need to prove it wrong. And as you said Tsukuyomi doesn't happen instantly. You said and proved that. So him referring to the illusion itself makes no sense whatsoever than the casting itself, which actually makes perfect sense. All you said in this post is your opinion on how Kakashi thinks and acts. The facts are clear. Tsukuyomi does not happen instantly according to you and the evidence you provided. The casting however does. So he therefore was talking about the casting.

"Oh fudgkenwngwoeigbwgpb4gijgg;leg-94hnw.....did BEEEEEEE learn any new genjutsu countermeasure that you know of presently? noooooooooooo....the answer is N-O..it's that simple, you don't know of it, there is no proof of it, then the obvious conclusion is that it doesn't exist. You're just posing theories and theories aren't always right. Bee is already a fully developed character just like Naruto and Sasuke is. Tsukuyomi>>> Bee."

Like I said. You act like you're the creator of Naruto, basically saying Bee just sat around for ten years and never improved on his weaknesses. If you think I'm going to think a powerful wise Shinobi like Bee just sat around for over ten years and never improved himself, then you're wasting your time. You aren't convincing me to admit Bee can't break Genjutsu. Until I see Bee succumb to Genjutsu, don't waste your breath. You saying I pose a theory is just like you posing the theory that Bee never trained. So back at you. Please show me where it is stated that Bee never improved? As for your me and you statements, take it up with War. Cause as I said, he made a valid claim that non Uchiha can.

"As you did before on certain words, like the word moment i want you to also use the literal rule to deduce what exactly he meant by stating maximum efficiency. Efficiency is derived from efficient and has the following meaning >>capable of producing the desired effect."

"I just stated i wasn't talking about shippuden's scene. Did you even know what you just typed dude. The shippuden scene has kakashi specifically saying instant, the 'Naruto' scene has Kakashi saying Moment. I'm debating on the Naruto/Moment scene not shippuden which is exactly what you said in whatever you typed here, mentioning ASUMA and Kakashi saying moment is just you proving me right when i said i said i was talking about the naruto scene.. Prove me wrong with visual evidence. Also i see no proof of instant meaning 0.00 seconds..(btw the 'instant' im talking about is the one that was translated from 'moment')"

First off, no you weren't. Do i really need to hold your hand and show you where and when Kakashi saying moment was brought up and why? Okay. [2] As you can clearly see. We have always been talking about Tsukuyomi being instantly for illusion or cast speed. You used Kakashi saying moment as proof it happens instantly for illusion. So...

Ninja Of War wrote:
Secondly, lol , I find it entertaining that you use strange logic and comparisons, then discard it. (Note: Not meant to be insulting)

?

For your proposed version of the use of the word "concurrently". Well, it's obvious that Tsukuyomi is a MS ability, so the Sharingan is needed to cast it. However, the line where the word "concurrently" is used, follows basic sentence structure. Basic sentence structure, requires "Time", "Manner" and "Place". "Time" part of the sentence is on it's correct place with the use of the word "Concurrently", with the meaning "As it stands now".

That indicates that the meaning is reduced to that sentence, not referring to a previous sentence. Also, It's not necessary to explain extremely obvious things twice, particularly in a databook.

Let's say you're correct, the word was used in the way as you said, what now? what exactly are you gonna prove?. I can see you trying to say skilled non uchiha's can break it? referring to those introduced later in the series? i'm curious.But the statements are still limited up to a point in the series as you said, and it's not like the author specifically explained exactly how Tsukuyomi can be broken like how he did for amaterasu so we apply that knowledge to character's who possibly possess those perks of breaking tsukuyomi, he just flat out said who can as if he's trying to favour some lads.

JamesSenpai wrote:
Why would the partner method with non Uchiha work when Kishimoto and Itachi stated before Kakashi even seen Itachi again, that only Uchiha with Sharingan can break it? You make no sense. Why would Kishimoto say Uchiha can break it when they cannot? You have no argument. Kishimoto said they can. Doesn't matter how unfathomable it is too you. What is Tsukuyomi? It's a Genjutsu that Itachi controls to the point he affects the perception of time itself. Who can break it? Elite Uchiha with Sharingan. That is without a doubt a fact. You need to prove it wrong. And as you said Tsukuyomi doesn't happen instantly. You said and proved that. So him referring to the illusion itself makes no sense whatsoever than the casting itself, which actually makes perfect sense. All you said in this post is your opinion on how Kakashi thinks and acts. The facts are clear. Tsukuyomi does not happen instantly according to you and the evidence you provided. The casting however does. So he therefore was talking about the casting.

I learned nothing new from this reply...reread my reply. You said nothing to deny that tsukuyomi happens instantly. I need proof.

Like I said. You act like you're the creator of Naruto, basically saying Bee just sat around for ten years and never improved on his weaknesses. If you think I'm going to think a powerful wise Shinobi like Bee just sat around for over ten years and never improved himself, then you're wasting your time. You aren't convincing me to admit Bee can't break Genjutsu. Until I see Bee succumb to Genjutsu, don't waste your breath. You saying I pose a theory is just like you posing the theory that Bee never trained. So back at you. Please show me where it is stated that Bee never improved? As for your me and you statements, take it up with War. Cause as I said, he made a valid claim that non Uchiha can.

Phew Boy. If judges were to think like this then criminals would rule the world. You're just giving a character credit for a feat he didn't even accomplish, you're the one who's acting like the creator in saying a fully developed character got a new power...so mr creator i need proof of your development on Bee and i'm not seeing any until then i win on this one because what we have on the character is what we're gonna work with. And what was war's valid claim that the non uchiha's who get shit on with basic genjutsu can break tsukuyomi? all he's trying to do is prove a word wrong in the databook, i understand the outcome but it still won't prove that non uchiha's can, there are feats that exist showing that they can't.

I'd like to see stuff like these more often from you, like when you were saying instant means 0.0 seconds....show proof of that why don't yah. The 3rd databook says Jiraiya forms his massive rasengan in an instant, so according to you Jiraiya can transfer chakra, set his hand in a right position and form a massive rasengan in 0.0 seconds! impressive!. Thats light speed+ right there from Jiraiya ,confirmed. anyways here you go, the name of the site is called Thesaurus..

First off, no you weren't. Do i really need to hold your hand and show you where and when Kakashi saying moment was brought up and why? Okay. [2] As you can clearly see. We have always been talking about Tsukuyomi being instantly for illusion or cast speed. You used Kakashi saying moment as proof it happens instantly for illusion. So...

Do you notice that we're arguing over trivial things. I was indeed talking about tsukuyomi being instant as in it finishes you off under a second ...so what exactly are you trying to prove? what i'm saying vs what you're saying remains the same,and it will most likely be so for the rest of the argument because your understanding of the word 'instant' is absurd.

Jason wrote: I learned nothing new from this reply...reread my reply. You said nothing to deny that tsukuyomi happens instantly. I need proof.

Why do i need to prove the illusion doesn't happen instantly when you already did with your novel evidence? Then the wiki also says it happens in a matter of seconds. Enough said. Where's yours showing it happens instantly? In fact I don't even have to prove it wrong since you never proved it right. You have to prove an effect of an ability before I need to disprove it lol.

Phew Boy. If judges were to think like this then criminals would rule the world. You're just giving a character credit for a feat he didn't even accomplish, you're the one who's acting like the creator in saying a fully developed character got a new power...so mr creator i need proof of your development on Bee and i'm not seeing any until then i win on this one because what we have on the character is what we're gonna work with. And what was war's valid claim that the non uchiha's who get shit on with basic genjutsu can break tsukuyomi? all he's trying to do is prove a word wrong in the databook, i understand the outcome but it still won't prove that non uchiha's can, there are feats that exist showing that they can't.

I ain't giving him or taking anything from anyone. Lol, if judges acted like you, you mean. You are judging a character based off events that happened over ten years prior with those actions only being your evidence. That's called discrimination. So your point fell short. I never made the claim Bee can or can't. You're just whining because I won't say he can't. Which again, get over it.

I'd like to see stuff like these more often from you, like when you were saying instant means 0.0 seconds....show proof of that why don't yah. The 3rd databook says Jiraiya forms his massive rasengan in an instant, so according to you Jiraiya can transfer chakra, set his hand in a right position and form a massive rasengan in 0.0 seconds! impressive!. Thats light speed+ right there from Jiraiya ,confirmed. anyways here you go, the name of the site is called Thesaurus..

Thesaurus what? .com? That site doesn't give definitions. It gives synoynms. [1] As everyone can see. However, it is connected to Dictionary which does give definitions as everyone can see from the screenshot. Your definition isn't there. [2] So why are you making things up?

Do you notice that we're arguing over trivial things. I was indeed talking about tsukuyomi being instant as in it finishes you off under a second ...so what exactly are you trying to prove? what i'm saying vs what you're saying remains the same,and it will most likely be so for the rest of the argument because your understanding of the word 'instant' is absurd.

Did you learn nothing in grade school or something? From the screenshot we are clearly talking about if the illusion happens instantly or the cast itself. You literally say the illusion is performed instantly and disagreed with me talking about the genjutsu casting. I then use instant ( in it's adjective form which means the exact same thing as instantly [3] ) instead of instantly. Then you started using instant as well. Now you don't even realize what you been talking about. All we did was stop using the word instantly. The subject remained the same. Too bad you can't claim instantly can mean the noun version of instant since it's an adverb. The subject has always been does the illusion happen instantly or was the statement about the casting. Now you're trying to run away from the topic and change the subject on word definitions. As you can clearly see, Instant still can mean immediately, just like instantly which means at once without any intervening time or space. That means at 0 seconds. So you're still wrong even as you run from the topic.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:
@James...your replies are getting cringey and i'm not seeing what i'm requesting,which makes this argument an Izanami of bullshit so until then cya.

The only thing cringey about what I said, is having to school you in basic english, call you out on fake proof, and remind you what you were even talking about cause you obviously had no clue. As for what you requested, I gave it to you. I stated your proof of Tsukuyomi not being utilized in 0 seconds. Obviously you don't know what that means cause you don't even remember what you post, lol. Later though. It was fun beating you.

Let's say you're correct, the word was used in the way as you said, what now? what exactly are you gonna prove?. I can see you trying to say skilled non uchiha's can break it? referring to those introduced later in the series? i'm curious.But the statements are still limited up to a point in the series as you said, and it's not like the author specifically explained exactly how Tsukuyomi can be broken like how he did for amaterasu so we apply that knowledge to character's who possibly possess those perks of breaking tsukuyomi, he just flat out said who can as if he's trying to favour some lads.

As I have stated multiple times before, and having to do this again now (sigh). My original question was, what gives Itachi the authority to limit the abilities of other shinobi? Particularly with regards to who can break out of Tsukuyomi. As you and those who have argued have given databook 2 as evidence, only is valid for that time. So, knowing that, Itachi does not have the authority to limit all shinobi's abilities.

It's not about me proving anything, since the merits for Itachi's claimed authority have turned out to be not true. Understand now?

Ninja Of War wrote:
As I have stated multiple times before, and having to do this again now (sigh). My original question was, what gives Itachi the authority to limit the abilities of other shinobi? Particularly with regards to who can break out of Tsukuyomi. As you and those who have argued have given databook 2 as evidence, only is valid for that time. So, knowing that, Itachi does not have the authority to limit all shinobi's abilities.

It's not about me proving anything, since the merits for Itachi's claimed authority have turned out to be not true. Understand now?

You didn't answer my question. I know what your question was but what i want to know is your main reason on posing that question,everything has a reason. I asked this question already but you're seeming to avoid it, you gave me a lengthy text to a simple yes or no question. It can be agreed that Itachi can limit those shinobi's whose capabilities he knows of, fair? who is itachi to give such as a statement? well the caster of the jutsu ofc, no one would know the potency of an atk better than the caster himself.

JamesSenpai wrote:
As for what you requested, I gave it to you. I stated your proof of Tsukuyomi not being utilized in 0 seconds.

Speaking of giving proof and 'zero' seconds, where is the proof that instant means zero seconds? where is the proof that proves Bee is genjutsu trained now? where is the proof that proves tsukuyomi doesn't last for an instant? all the visual proof you provided is just dictionary meanings and my own statements with a few manga scan that really proved nothing but you interpreting the characters statements to suit your argument, you just invent fancied ambiguities as an excuse for failing to give effect to the scans plain meaning because you consider the consequences for doing so would be you looking lowwwwwwwww.

Sharingan Genjutsu casting can be instant the moment eye contact is made, as shown in the anime and the manga and that isn't even talking about Tsukuyomi alone. Itachi made the most brief eye contact possible with Bee and BAM Bee was in a Sharingan Genjutsu and the eye contact was so fast and so brief that Bee didn't even know he was in one or that he made eye contact with Itachi until Gyuki pointed out he was in a Genjutsu, meaning despite his sun glasses and despite knowing not to make eye contact Bee still got caught in Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu. It is NOT FTG instant, but it is instant, and Tsukuyomi is no exception. As Naruto said, Bee has no chance against Tsukuyomi showing that being a Perfect Jinchuriki won't help in the slightest against it. Only a extremely skilled Sharingan and MS using UCHIHA has a CHANCE to break out of it.

You didn't answer my question. I know what your question was but what i want to know is your main reason on posing that question,everything has a reason. I asked this question already but you're seeming to avoid it, you gave me a lengthy text to a simple yes or no question. It can be agreed that Itachi can limit those shinobi's whose capabilities he knows of, fair? who is itachi to give such as a statement? well the caster of the jutsu ofc, no one would know the potency of an atk better than the caster himself.

I'm not avoiding anything. What you want is a false equivalence, and I'm not falling for that.

My reasons for posing that question? Well, I have seen other users on this thread and others, just accept the claim that Itachi has the authority to limit other(all) shinobi. That's a big assumption, so I looked at the evidence and found that Itachi does not have that authority.

As to my "lengthy response", I feel that you want me to answer in a particular way with an oversimplification. So, I tried to be as clear as possible. But, if you want a short answer: it's not impossible to break out of Tsukuyomi without the sharingan.

Jason wrote:
Speaking of giving proof and 'zero' seconds, where is the proof that instant means zero seconds?

Uh. I gave you a dictionary definition where it states that it means immediate which states immediate means no intervening space or time which means 0 seconds. I don't know how that isn't proof when your asking for a definition of a word, lol.

You asked where's the proof where is the proof that proves Bee is genjutsu trained now?

Since when did I ever state Bee was Genjutsu trained? Quote me. I don't need to give proof on something i never claimed. You claimed he couldn't break it and claimed he wouldn't train. Therefore, you have to give proof. That's how a debate works. The one who makes the claim has to give proof.

where is the proof that proves tsukuyomi doesn't last for an instant?

You made the claim it was instant. You have yet to prove it. All I've said is that it doesn't happen in 0 seconds and used the adjective form of instant. The only proof I need for that, is your novel scan. It literally tells you how fast it is. I don't know what in your head says that isn't proof. But it's obviously off. Then you have the wiki saying it happens in a matter of seconds. That doesn't fit the adjective form of instant. Neither does the novel. So that is without a doubt, proof.

all the visual proof you provided is just dictionary meanings and my own statements with a few manga scan that really proved nothing but you interpreting the characters statements to suit your argument,

They proved a) instantly means 0 seconds therefore Kakashi meant the cast and not the illusion. b) instant can mean 0 seconds. c) the illusion is not performed in 0 seconds according to your novel scan. Those are the only proof i need in this argument of can the illusion of Tsukuyomi transpire instantly. The answer based off this, is no they cannot. What statement from a character did I interpret wrong? Now you're making more stuff up, but everyone can clearly see it.

you just invent fancied ambiguities as an excuse for failing to give effect to the scans plain meaning because you consider the consequences for doing so would be you looking lowwwwwwwww.

Looking low? Lol. You claimed i was seeking personal gain by posting a comment you left out, twisting the action to suit yourself but no one bought it. That's you looking bad. You been whining and complaining instead of giving any proof that the illusion happens instantly. That's you looking bad. You been trying to change the subject too something irrelevant like word definitions and meanings cause you can't prove your case that a) Tsukuyomi cannot be broken and b) the illusion happens instantly, thus you tried going off topic cause you failed in your false claims. That's you looking bad. All I've done is proved you wrong.

I proved you wrong when I showed instantly HAS to mean 0 seconds with a screenshot of the definition (obviously proof), that the novel showed Tsukuyomi not happening in 0 seconds (obviously proof), and the wiki saying it happens in a matter of seconds (obviously proof), therefore Kakashi cannot be talking about the illusion of Tsukuyomi which can not transpire instantly since it has to transpire in 0 seconds. I proved you wrong when I said Elite Uchiha with Sharingan can break it with direct statements from Kishimoto and Itachi literally saying they can (obviously proof). I proved you wrong about efficient and your false proof since thesaurus cannot give definitions (showed screenshots of this), and leads you to another site for definitions (showed screenshots) and that site did not have your made up definition (screenshots that are obviously proof). I proved you wrong that instant can mean 0 seconds with screenshots that are obviously proof. So explain too me what proof I need to give when i already proved all these claims i made right. Explain too me, why you don't need to prove any of your claims right and that you can spout anything out and I'm the one who has to prove you wrong? Childish logic. What's next, you going to say Itachi can use Kamehameha and tell me I gotta prove it wrong? Lol.

Ninja Of War wrote:
But, if you want a short answer: it is not impossible to break out of Tsukuyomi without the sharingan.

Finally man. Now what's your argument on this? what convinced you to believe this can be true? and what tier Naruto characters is this statement applicable to?

JamesSenpai wrote:
Uh. I gave you a dictionary definition where it states that it means immediate which states immediate means no intervening space or time which means 0 seconds. I don't know how that isn't proof when your asking for a definition of a word, lol.

Honestly i don't remember receiving such proof from you. Moving on, the word that fits the meaning you provided above is Immediately not immediate, but still i don't see how the above meaning translates to 0 seconds. Perhaps a little proof will shut me up?. And oh, while at it do take a look at the example they provided below on the meaning of 'immediately'..i really don't see how the meaning corresponds with the example, what ,is the girl in the meaning superhuman or somethinG? and exactly why you skipped past the first meaning and the many synonyms mentioned with it baffles me greatly.....i think you're substituting the idea at hand with a more exaggerated one, in this case you're using what seems a meaning that fits General Relativity(the study of space and time) to what? a jutsu? lol. I'm sure when kakashi mentioned moment he meant nothing close. Think about that and stop exaggerating the character statements.

Since when did I ever state Bee was Genjutsu trained? Quote me. I don't need to give proof on something i never claimed. You claimed he couldn't break it and claimed he wouldn't train. Therefore, you have to give proof. That's how a debate works. The one who makes the claim has to give proof.

Well this made me cringe. You keep hypothesising that maybe he improved in the future. Here you go:

The current Bee isn't the same Bee who fought Itachi years prior.

Do you know if Bee is the same? Do you have a direct quote or a case from Kishimoto that says/or shows Bee is still clueless when it comes too Genjutsu?

I never said I think he can. What I said is,is there any proof he hasn't changed.

Why make such statements? why not just accept it that he can't break it? because you're still clinged to the fact that you personally think Bee can break it but just don't wanna say 'yes'.
Here's more:

Who are you to say who can and can't break Itachi's NORMAL Genjutsu without any proof? Your argument relies on a character feat that happened over 11 years prior. I didn't say Bee could break it, but I did say you have no evidence that he can't.

It's like saying Adult Naruto OR Sasuke can beat Kaguya, because after all those years, after fightning Kaguya, after knowing that she can only be beaten by a sealing jutsu they would, according to your logic create a sealing jutsu similar to the one that was used in her sealing away. Hmm another one would be, Killer Bee knowing that chakra receivers can restrain tailed beasts so naturally (according to your supreme logic ofc) he would after all those years just sit and say 'hmmm why don't i devise a way to counter those chakra receivers'. But hey he didn't, when momoshiki arrived to take gyuki the dude was rapping...which is his hobby,maybe after all those years he was rapping, did you think of that? it was a time of peace and all..and sharingan users are dead except for sasuke who is not evil...so i dont know why one would improve in genjutsu with those points in mind. Anyways you want proof ? my proof is the current bee there is an entire wiki made out of him, do check for 'improvement in genjutsu do let me know.

You made the claim it was instant. You have yet to prove it. All I've said is that it doesn't happen in 0 seconds and used the adjective form of instant. The only proof I need for that, is your novel scan. It literally tells you how fast it is. I don't know what in your head says that isn't proof. But it's obviously off. Then you have the wiki saying it happens in a matter of seconds. That doesn't fit the adjective form of instant. Neither does the novel. So that is without a doubt, proof.

Wiki Error: Your opponent has failed to reply on this sub topic due to the fact that you still misunderstand the meaning of instant, which by the way doesn't mean 0 seconds, he therefore requests that you provide proof of the word meaning exactly as you say it means. Meaning the proof provided should contain the following characters 0 seconds and not your own fancied interpretations of the word

Looking low? Lol. You claimed i was seeking personal gain by posting a comment you left out,
twisting the action to suit yourself but no one bought it. That's you looking bad. You been
whining and complaining instead of giving any proof that the illusion happens instantly.
That's you looking bad. You been trying to change the subject too something irrelevant like
word definitions and meanings cause you can't prove your case that a) Tsukuyomi cannot be
broken and b) the illusion happens instantly, thus you tried going off topic cause you failed
in your false claims. That's you looking bad. All I've done is proved you wrong.

I proved you wrong when I showed instantly HAS to mean 0 seconds with a screenshot of the
definition (obviously proof), that the novel showed Tsukuyomi not happening in 0 seconds
(obviously proof), and the wiki saying it happens in a matter of seconds (obviously proof),
therefore Kakashi cannot be talking about the illusion of Tsukuyomi which can not transpire
instantly since it has to transpire in 0 seconds. I proved you wrong when I said Elite Uchiha
with Sharingan can break it with direct statements from Kishimoto and Itachi literally saying
they can (obviously proof). I proved you wrong about efficient and your false proof since
thesaurus cannot give definitions (showed screenshots of this), and leads you to another site
for definitions (showed screenshots) and that site did not have your made up definition
(screenshots that are obviously proof). I proved you wrong that instant can mean 0 seconds
with screenshots that are obviously proof. So explain too me what proof I need to give when i
already proved all these claims i made right. Explain too me, why you don't need to prove any
of your claims right and that you can spout anything out and I'm the one who has to prove you
wrong? Childish logic. What's next, you going to say Itachi can use Kamehameha and tell me I
gotta prove it wrong? Lol.

Ok firstly i'll ignore the statements that has connection to '0second you can tell why by reading the rest of text above. Secondly, why are you even bringing these up? aren't they already established lol,it's like a whole new level of irrevalancy, they're are funny and counterable, but me replying to them simply means that you'll reply to them as well. and that would mean that i would just have to be typing new pointless shitz. But i'll take on this example of your's though>>>What's next, you going to say Itachi can use Kamehameha and tell me I gotta prove it wrong? Lol...this is literally you when stating that killer bee can possibly break genjutsu in the future and then asking me to prove that he can't. lol.

Ninja Of War wrote:
But, if you want a short answer: it is not impossible to break out of Tsukuyomi without the sharingan.

Finally man. Now what's your argument on this? what convinced you to believe this can be true? and what tier Naruto characters is this statement applicable to?

JamesSenpai wrote:
Uh. I gave you a dictionary definition where it states that it means immediate which states immediate means no intervening space or time which means 0 seconds. I don't know how that isn't proof when your asking for a definition of a word, lol.

Honestly i don't remember receiving such proof from you. Moving on, the word that fits the meaning you provided above is Immediately not immediate, but still i don't see how the above meaning translates to 0 seconds. Perhaps a little proof will shut me up?. And oh, while at it do take a look at the example they provided below on the meaning of 'immediately'..i really don't see how the meaning corresponds with the example, what ,is the girl in the meaning superhuman or somethinG? and exactly why you skipped past the first meaning and the many synonyms mentioned with it baffles me greatly.....i think you're substituting the idea at hand with a more exaggerated one, in this case you're using what seems a meaning that fits General Relativity(the study of space and time) to what? a jutsu? lol. I'm sure when kakashi mentioned moment he meant nothing close. Think about that and stop exaggerating the character statements.

Since when did I ever state Bee was Genjutsu trained? Quote me. I don't need to give proof on something i never claimed. You claimed he couldn't break it and claimed he wouldn't train. Therefore, you have to give proof. That's how a debate works. The one who makes the claim has to give proof.

Well this made me cringe. You keep hypothesising that maybe he improved in the future. Here you go:

The current Bee isn't the same Bee who fought Itachi years prior.

Do you know if Bee is the same? Do you have a direct quote or a case from Kishimoto that says/or shows Bee is still clueless when it comes too Genjutsu?

I never said I think he can. What I said is,is there any proof he hasn't changed.

Why make such statements? why not just accept it that he can't break it? because you're still clinged to the fact that you personally think Bee can break it but just don't wanna say 'yes'.
Here's more:

Who are you to say who can and can't break Itachi's NORMAL Genjutsu without any proof? Your argument relies on a character feat that happened over 11 years prior. I didn't say Bee could break it, but I did say you have no evidence that he can't.

It's like saying Adult Naruto OR Sasuke can beat Kaguya, because after all those years, after fightning Kaguya, after knowing that she can only be beaten by a sealing jutsu they would, according to your logic create a sealing jutsu similar to the one that was used in her sealing away. Hmm another one would be, Killer Bee knowing that chakra receivers can restrain tailed beasts so naturally (according to your supreme logic ofc) he would after all those years just sit and say 'hmmm why don't i devise a way to counter those chakra receivers'. But hey he didn't, when momoshiki arrived to take gyuki the dude was rapping...which is his hobby,maybe after all those years he was rapping, did you think of that? it was a time of peace and all..and sharingan users are dead except for sasuke who is not evil...so i dont know why one would improve in genjutsu with those points in mind. Anyways you want proof ? my proof is the current bee there is an entire wiki made out of him, do check for 'improvement in genjutsu do let me know.

You made the claim it was instant. You have yet to prove it. All I've said is that it doesn't happen in 0 seconds and used the adjective form of instant. The only proof I need for that, is your novel scan. It literally tells you how fast it is. I don't know what in your head says that isn't proof. But it's obviously off. Then you have the wiki saying it happens in a matter of seconds. That doesn't fit the adjective form of instant. Neither does the novel. So that is without a doubt, proof.

Wiki Error: Your opponent has failed to reply on this sub topic due to the fact that you still misunderstand the meaning of instant, which by the way doesn't mean 0 seconds, he therefore requests that you provide proof of the word meaning exactly as you say it means. Meaning the proof provided should contain the following characters 0 seconds and not your own fancied interpretations of the word

Looking low? Lol. You claimed i was seeking personal gain by posting a comment you left out,
twisting the action to suit yourself but no one bought it. That's you looking bad. You been
whining and complaining instead of giving any proof that the illusion happens instantly.
That's you looking bad. You been trying to change the subject too something irrelevant like
word definitions and meanings cause you can't prove your case that a) Tsukuyomi cannot be
broken and b) the illusion happens instantly, thus you tried going off topic cause you failed
in your false claims. That's you looking bad. All I've done is proved you wrong.

I proved you wrong when I showed instantly HAS to mean 0 seconds with a screenshot of the
definition (obviously proof), that the novel showed Tsukuyomi not happening in 0 seconds
(obviously proof), and the wiki saying it happens in a matter of seconds (obviously proof),
therefore Kakashi cannot be talking about the illusion of Tsukuyomi which can not transpire
instantly since it has to transpire in 0 seconds. I proved you wrong when I said Elite Uchiha
with Sharingan can break it with direct statements from Kishimoto and Itachi literally saying
they can (obviously proof). I proved you wrong about efficient and your false proof since
thesaurus cannot give definitions (showed screenshots of this), and leads you to another site
for definitions (showed screenshots) and that site did not have your made up definition
(screenshots that are obviously proof). I proved you wrong that instant can mean 0 seconds
with screenshots that are obviously proof. So explain too me what proof I need to give when i
already proved all these claims i made right. Explain too me, why you don't need to prove any
of your claims right and that you can spout anything out and I'm the one who has to prove you
wrong? Childish logic. What's next, you going to say Itachi can use Kamehameha and tell me I
gotta prove it wrong? Lol.

Ok firstly i'll ignore the statements that has connection to '0second you can tell why by reading the rest of text above. Secondly, why are you even bringing these up? aren't they already established lol,it's like a whole new level of irrevalancy, they're are funny and counterable, but me replying to them simply means that you'll reply to them as well. and that would mean that i would just have to be typing new pointless shitz. But i'll take on this example of your's though>>>What's next, you going to say Itachi can use Kamehameha and tell me I gotta prove it wrong? Lol...this is literally you when stating that killer bee can possibly break genjutsu in the future and then asking me to prove that he can't. lol.

Jason wrote:
Honestly i don't remember receiving such proof from you. Moving on, the word that fits the meaning you provided above is Immediately not immediate, but still i don't see how the above meaning translates to 0 seconds. Perhaps a little proof will shut me up?. And oh, while at it do take a look at the example they provided below on the meaning of 'immediately'..i really don't see how the meaning corresponds with the example, what ,is the girl in the meaning superhuman or somethinG? and exactly why you skipped past the first meaning and the many synonyms mentioned with it baffles me greatly.....i think you're substituting the idea at hand with a more exaggerated one, in this case you're using what seems a meaning that fits General Relativity(the study of space and time) to what? a jutsu? lol. I'm sure when kakashi mentioned moment he meant nothing close. Think about that and stop exaggerating the character statements.

[1] "No intervening time or space". That means there is no time that intervenes. Therefore there is no time. If there is no time then it's 0 seconds. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. I'm not substituting anything. If you're referring to the argument on instant, you were the one saying it can't mean 0 seconds, i just merely proved you wrong. I could care less about your argument on instant since it's irrelevant to Tsukuyomi.

Well this made me cringe. You keep hypothesising that maybe he improved in the future. Here you go:

The current Bee isn't the same Bee who fought Itachi years prior.
Do you know if Bee is the same? Do you have a direct quote or a case from Kishimoto that says/or shows Bee is still clueless when it comes too Genjutsu?
I never said I think he can. What I said is,is there any proof he hasn't changed.

That still isn't proof of me saying Bee can fight Genjutsu. That's me asking you where's your proof he can't. I'm not the writer of the series. Posing limitations on a character not stated or shown is hyperbole. It isn't legit until it comes from the series. I believe in facts and facts alone. I don't care about how you feel or not. Until you start showing me proof he can't in Boruto, I won't say he can't or that he can for a reason. I'm not the writer. I do not have the credibility or authority to state something with no validation from the series. If it pisses you off I'm not stupid enough to think I'm delusioned enough to make up a fact, oh well. Just like your opinion on bee is irrelevant until you prove only Uchiha can break it. But if you can prove War wrong, then I'll concede. So I don't know why you're wasting your time on this and not focusing on that when I already made that clear multiple times.

Wiki Error: Your opponent has failed to reply on this sub topic due to the fact that you still misunderstand the meaning of instant, which by the way doesn't mean 0 seconds, he therefore requests that you provide proof of the word meaning exactly as you say it means. Meaning the proof provided should contain the following characters 0 seconds and not your own fancied interpretations of the word

So basically you're saying it doesn't mean without any intervening time or space? Good to know you don't know what you're talking about.

but me replying to them simply means that you'll reply to them as well. and that would mean that i would just have to be typing new pointless shitz.

Like arguing over instant? Haha, the contradictory.

But i'll take on this example of your's though>>>What's next, you going to say Itachi can use Kamehameha and tell me I gotta prove it wrong? Lol...this is literally you when stating that killer bee can possibly break genjutsu in the future and then asking me to prove that he can't. lol.

You all are arguing what ifs. That's not debating. Naruto told B if he was caught in Tsukuyomi it was over, regardless of him being a Perfect Jinchuriki and that was during the 4th Ninja World War. The Databooks say that only an extremely skilled Uchiha with a very powerful Sharingan has a chance of breaking out of Tsukuyomi. It never said they would escape unharmed or not weakened.

FlatZone wrote:
You all are arguing what ifs. That's not debating. Naruto told B if he was caught in Tsukuyomi it was over, regardless of him being a Perfect Jinchuriki and that was during the 4th Ninja World War. The Databooks say that only an extremely skilled Uchiha with a very powerful Sharingan has a chance of breaking out of Tsukuyomi. It never said they would escape unharmed or not weakened.

Okay first off, of course a Perfect Jinjuuriki can't break out. It's the same reason the partner method doesn't work; the Tailed Beast is outside the Genjutsu, so the damage is done before the Tailed Beast can free the Jinjuuriki. The one who breaks it has to be the one experiencing it, and only an extremely skilled Uchiha can at all.

And secondly, you're saying everyone is arguing "what-ifs." Well that's exactly what you're doing when you say things like "It never said they would escape unharmed or not weakened." That kind of logic doesn't work in debates. Otherwise, I can say "Nothing ever said Kakashi can't use Susanoo anymore because you don't need eyes to use it." or "Itachi knows how to use Izanagi." You can't just say No one ever said it wasn't something, so therefore it is something.

Sasuke when he got out, was visibly hurt and overwhelmed and it apparently took a physical toll on him too. THAT is getting out harmed, or weakened. Why would it be any different for anybody else? Kakashi got hit with it and was visibly harmed, weakened. Sasuke got hit with the full force of it in P1 and not only was he visibly harmed and weakened but he ended up in a coma with damage to his brain Tsunade had to fix for him to wake up. Sasuke had the two Tomoe Sharingan in each eye and thats better than not having a Sharingan at all when fighting against Genjutsu. Tsukuyomi WILL mess somebody up Uchiha or not even if they do somehow break out of the Genjutsu.

Itachi was already getting low on chakra, nearly blind, and dying of terminal disease with his MS techs severely straining him at this point.. to begin with. Casting Tsukuyomi already took a chunk of his chakra away.. his eye being hurt is a no brainer.

@BrainBrand, if memory serves, he was smiling too. Or at least looking satisfied. He was grasping his eye because he exerted a great effort through it. Nothing indicates he was hurt by the technique, only that he had to try hard to get out.

Also, it's interesting that you respond to this minor side part of my argument with someone else, but not my actual argument to you days ago. Maybe you missed it again.

@Flatzone you can say that Itachi's eye getting hurt is a no brainer, but Sasuke just showing he exerted effort isn't a no brainer? Itachi's eye was hurt because Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi. They make it obvious that that's the case. Just look at their expressions. Sasuke was calm. Itachi was kind of freaking out.

Lol one of the Uchiha brothers was hurt by the exchange, and it wasn't Sasuke. Both obviously exerted a lot of effort, but only one was actually hurt by it. It's kind of obvious who it was.

JamesSenpai wrote:
[1] "No intervening time or space". That means there is no time that intervenes. Therefore there is no time. If there is no time then it's 0 seconds. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. I'm not substituting anything. If you're referring to the argument on instant, you were the one saying it can't mean 0 seconds, i just merely proved you wrong. I could care less about your argument on instant since it's irrelevant to Tsukuyomi.

According to what Asuma said you would get that tsukuyomi is above a second right? but Asuma can only and only did make his statement after he heard Kakashi drop to the ground. Now take these into thought and you'll see that Tsukuyomi is under a second in terms of speed.

Time is subtracted from that second because it takes some time for Kakashi to fall to the ground. Which is when Asuma will be notified.

Then it takes a little time for 'Kakashi's fall sound' to travel to Asuma

Might not be alot but it's still under a second, the only problem here is your misunderstanding of the term which doesn't translate to 0 second which i need visual evidence to be convinced because i can't really take your interpretation of it seeing as how you greatly misinterpreted what Kakashi said in shippuden about tsukuyomi being instantly...woh which by the way means that Kakashi was saying that 'Itachi has you in his genjutsu in 0.0 seconds'? oh wow😂😂. I think i made an error in the first part of this but still You just got debunked oon this last part..

That still isn't proof of me saying Bee can fight Genjutsu. That's me asking you where's your proof he can't. I'm not the writer of the series. Posing limitations on a character not stated or shown is hyperbole. It isn't legit until it comes from the series. I believe in facts and facts alone.

Here's your proof. I think requesting proof that is not there is the biggest hyperbole in the history of hyperboles. I dare you to say Bee can't break tsukuyomi, i don't think you can because you believe that he can break it. You believe in facts and facts alone? the current available facts is that he can't, believe that. Well Gaara can use ultra instincts, prove me wrong..after seeing Madara what would make you think that Gaara wouldn't learn a very destructive move to stop a foe like Madara? i need facts😂😂 give me😂.That's how you sound......

NinjaofWar wrote:
What tier characters? Characters that have the ability to break out of Tsukuyomi.

You really don't understand my point then. It's a shame really, I thought you finally did. Well, if you can't understand my simple explanation, then there is no point in repeating it again.

Note: Hope you don't think you've pull one over me.

Likewise. Like before you're avoiding the main point of my questions and replying with a set of unnecessities. I simply asked what tier Naruto characters is this statement applicable to? you replied with What tier characters? Characters that have the ability to break out of Tsukuyomi., you just invented a new tier ;'). Look at the question, i don't see how the answer you provided is connected. You're simply avoiding the issue. With you saying that there exist non sharingan users who can break it obviously hints that you have some names in mind..or don't tell me you're arguing blindly now.

A non Uchiha, with no Sharingan is not and never will break out of Tsukuyomi. There is quite literally nothing supporting the idea that it can happen at all, but fans putting their own little theories together and trying to use them as proof.

Likewise. Like before you're avoiding the main point of my questions and replying with a set of unnecessities. I simply asked what tier Naruto characters is this statement applicable to? you replied with What tier characters? Characters that have the ability to break out of Tsukuyomi., you just invented a new tier ;'). Look at the question, i don't see how the answer you provided is connected. You're simply avoiding the issue. With you saying that there exist non sharingan users who can break it obviously hints that you have some names in mind..or don't tell me you're arguing blindly now.

What I've noticed is that we're not on the same level. Me, posing a question, trying to work out how users think. You, oversimplifying, spinning arguments around, trying to control the narrative and making logical fallacies.

I can't determine whether or not you are doing this on purpose. So, I tried to be as clear as possible but that didn't work. If you can't understand me after repeated attempts why continue?

DB2 never said a non sharingan wielding non uchiha could break out. There are translations for Tsukuyomi on the naruto forums literally right now, not to mention the official translated chapters are up for 2 dollars a month right now too.

FlatZone wrote:
DB2 never said a non sharingan wielding non uchiha could break out. There are translations for Tsukuyomi on the naruto forums literally right now, not to mention the official translated chapters are up for 2 dollars a month right now too.

Ninja Of War wrote:
What I've noticed is that we're not on the same level. Me, posing a question, trying to work out how users think. You, oversimplifying, spinning arguments around, trying to control the narrative and making logical fallacies.

I can't determine whether or not you are doing this on purpose. So, I tried to be as clear as possible but that didn't work. If you can't understand me after repeated attempts why continue?

I respect your tactic of evading a question that'll simply drown your argument of non uchiha's breaking tsukuyomi. You can't win the argument if you don't pose an argument. What logical fallacies am i making? if simply asking a question to simplify and argument is consider as such then you need to recheck the meaning.You make the claim that non uchihas can break it, but you fail to provide further evidence to backup your claim, specifically which non uchihas you're referring to and how they'll go about doing so. How I see the situation is that you as the debater is losing so you try to redirect the attention of the audience to another subject area where you think that you'll look better relative to me in this case you failing to answer my question directly, but you admit to no change of subject and pretends to be refuting the original on-subject statement made by me. Not working. You're failing to list the names, because the series has the fact that top tier guys like Orochimaru fail to release basic genjutsu with seconds passing and them still being stuck in it..idk how they'll release an instantaneous one. Nice try though. 2+2=4 is a fact .2+1=4 is an opinion, you need to prove your opinion true but until then i'll rest with the default, that being only sharingan possessors can break it. ANd just to clarify i'm not entirely going against your statements, specifically the Itachi limiting other shinobi's capabilities one, but as shown now by you, it's still a work in progress.

FlatZone wrote:
DB2 never said a non sharingan wielding non uchiha could break out. There are translations for Tsukuyomi on the naruto forums literally right now, not to mention the official translated chapters are up for 2 dollars a month right now too.

War's theory of the use of the word 'concurrently' in the DB is kinda acceptable, but still not fully convincible. So yeah he kinda proved that part, but what he's failing to prove is how they'll break it, and well who can break it. SO yeah let's accept that his theory makes sense when he said that the DB statement is only limited to a specific point in the series (but then again there was never another tsukuyomi entry in the DB to deny anything that was stateed in the 2nd DB) and instead lets watch his argument on how non uchihas can break it.

Jason Wrote:
AGAIN! i don't think this example suits YOUR definition of the meaning that was provided for 'immediately' She is 0.0 seconds fast or something? that's google itself telling to you that the word doesn't mean what you think it means.

"She was sitting without any intervening time or space behind me" makes just as much sense as "she was sitting 0.0 seconds behind me" so your argument fails. Zero is just the term i am using for the fact there is no time that transpires when immediately and instantly takes place. No intervening time. There is no time that intervenes with immediately or instantly. So when something happens instantly, it happens with no intervening time. You can whine all you want, but the illusion of Tsukiyomi has time based off your example from the novel and nothing you can twist or do can change that. Your argument is invalid.

Jason Wrote:
NOw also taking things literally this was the scan you posted
According to what Asuma said you would get that tsukuyomi is above a second right? but Asuma can only and only did make his statement after he heard Kakashi drop to the ground. Now take these into thought and you'll see that Tsukuyomi is under a second in terms of speed. Time is subtracted from that second because it takes some time for Kakashi to fall to the ground. Which is when Asuma will be notified.

Still doesn't prove it happens instantly.

Jason Wrote:
Might not be alot but it's still under a second, the only problem here is your misunderstanding of the term which doesn't translate to 0 second which i need visual evidence to be convinced because i can't really take your interpretation of it seeing as how you greatly misinterpreted what Kakashi said in shippuden about tsukuyomi being instantly...woh which by the way means that Kakashi was saying that 'Itachi has you in his genjutsu in 0.0 seconds'? oh wow😂😂. I think i made an error in the first part of this but still You just got debunked oon this last part..

I don't need visual proof because it states no intervening time. Let me change it up for a moment and speak on your level since you seemingly can't comprehend common sense. The only misunderstanding here is you not knowing what that means. Lol. If there is no time, then there is no time. The Illusion has time therefore cannot be what Kakashi was referring too. "which by the way means that Kakashi was saying that 'Itachi has you in his genjutsu in 0.0 seconds'?" Debunked? That's exactly right. There isn't a single second that takes place before you are put in Tsukuyomi after looking into Itachi's eyes. But if not, please prove me wrong. Show me where Itachi has never put someone instantly inside Tsukuyomi after making eye contact? Show me where Tsukuyomi isn't cast in 0.0 seconds.

Jason Wrote:
Here's your proof. I think requesting proof that is not there is the biggest hyperbole in the history of hyperboles. I dare you to say Bee can't break tsukuyomi, i don't think you can because you believe that he can break it. You believe in facts and facts alone? the current available facts is that he can't, believe that. Well Gaara can use ultra instincts, prove me wrong..after seeing Madara what would make you think that Gaara wouldn't learn a very destructive move to stop a foe like Madara? i need facts😂😂 give me😂.That's how you sound......

"I dare you to say Bee can't break tsukuyomi, i don't think you can because you believe that he can break it." This made me laugh. Grade school logic. Sounds like it came from a five year old. That same argument can be applied to the other side. "I dare you to say Bee can break tsukuyomi, i don't think you can because you believe that he can't break it." Pure crap. I won't say either. Why? Cause there's no proof for either side. Your "proof" is just a page. If you going to post a page i suggest you point at the "proof" or quote it. If not, it's irrelevant. I'm not going to waste my time to find your "proof" for you. Lol. Read it, didn't see any proof. Moving on.

War's theory of the use of the word 'concurrently' in the DB is kinda acceptable, but still not fully convincible. So yeah he kinda proved that part, but what he's failing to prove is how they'll break it, and well who can break it. SO yeah let's accept that his theory makes sense when he said that the DB statement is only limited to a specific point in the series (but then again there was never another tsukuyomi entry in the DB to deny anything that was stateed in the 2nd DB) and instead lets watch his argument on how non uchihas can break it.

It's amazing how you can say this to someone else, but can't confirm it to me. Instead you direct something pointless to me, smh.

For your post directed to me, let's use an analogy: "You build a house on sure foundation", Likewise, you build a discussion on understanding. From your posts in response to mine, that understanding is not there, so we don't have a discussion.

Now, is it not the opposition's stance that the databook is correct? So how can my statements be not "fully convincible" when it is taken literally from the databook??

As for your other questions on who can break it and how? It's obvious from my question, that the point I was trying to make was Itachi doesn't have the authority to limit all shinobi. That doesn't mean I must know who can break Tsukuyomi and how, only that it's possible.

I'm not avoiding your question or losing this, because we haven't been debating. You have not understood my first point so we can't move on.

JamesSenpai wrote:
"She was sitting without any intervening time or space behind me" makes just as much sense as "she was sitting 0.0 seconds behind me" so your argument fails. Zero is just the term i am using for the fact there is no time that transpires when immediately and instantly takes place. No intervening time. There is no time that intervenes with immediately or instantly. So when something happens instantly, it happens with no intervening time. You can whine all you want, but the illusion of Tsukiyomi has time based off your example from the novel and nothing you can twist or do can change that. Your argument is invalid.

So the girl in that example is superhuman: confirmed. You'll have to do better than that. You still can't change the fact that KAKASHI made his statement.

Still doesn't prove it happens instantly.

But proves that it happens less than seconds,which a bunch of people with common sense would see as a moment/immediate/something that happened at once.i guess these people don't know what they're saying look at the third one, there is another superhuman who can move in no time .Lemme ask you this, what word would you use to describe tsukuyomi's speed then, if it's not instant?

I don't need visual proof because it states no intervening time. Let me change it up for a moment and speak on your level since you seemingly can't comprehend common sense. The only misunderstanding here is you not knowing what that means. Lol. If there is no time, then there is no time. The Illusion has time therefore cannot be what Kakashi was referring too. "which by the way means that Kakashi was saying that 'Itachi has you in his genjutsu in 0.0 seconds'?" Debunked? That's exactly right. There isn't a single second that takes place before you are put in Tsukuyomi after looking into Itachi's eyes. But if not, please prove me wrong. Show me where Itachi has never put someone instantly inside Tsukuyomi after making eye contact? Show me where Tsukuyomi isn't cast in 0.0 seconds.

So you're willing to accept that Itachi can inject his chakra into someone in no time in 0.0 seconds....but you can't accept that a jutsu can be as fast? you call that common sense?...i can't prove it because it doesn't exist, why don't you prove that itachi places someone in his genjutsu in NO TIME!!!!!! and show your proof of it being 0.00000000 seconds. I'll watch you fail.

"I dare you to say Bee can't break tsukuyomi, i don't think you can because you believe that he can break it." This made me laugh. Grade school logic. Sounds like it came from a five year old. That same argument can be applied to the other side. "I dare you to say Bee can break tsukuyomi, i don't think you can because you believe that he can't break it." Pure crap. I won't say either. Why? Cause there's no proof for either side. Your "proof" is just a page. If you going to post a page i suggest you point at the "proof" or quote it. If not, it's irrelevant. I'm not going to waste my time to find your "proof" for you. Lol. Read it, didn't see any proof. Moving on.

Hey look that ex thief robbed bank x in the next ten years arrest him!!!....no they can't because there is no proof that he robbed the bank the incident hasn't occurred yet so he's innocent until proven guilty and the ex thief being proven guilty is beyond the realm of proof at the moment...so he's free and can't be arrested. Grade school logic. Apply the same logic to killerbee. At this point i feel like you're trolling man.

There is no proof for either side? you mean there is no proof for the side you're obviously leaning on. You think i'll post the wiki page without checking? i did check it's just all in your head and my proof is just not the wiki page, it's the manga and anime so far..he made no improvement, there is no sign of it, no proof. And where is your proof that Gaara can't use ultra instincts? i feel like you're not arguing with truths but is just arguing for the sake of being victorious.

Ninja Of War wrote:
It's amazing how you can say this to someone else, but can't confirm it to me. Instead you direct something pointless to me, smh.

Now, is it not the opposition's stance that the databook is correct? So how can my statements be not "fully convincible" when it is taken literally from the databook??

Because it's just your way of interpreting it, it can still be seen and understood on both ways. Which is the way i presented, and the way you presented in our argument on the subject. Which is why i said it's not fully convincible.

As for your other questions on who can break it and how? It's obvious from my question, that the point I was trying to make was Itachi doesn't have the authority to limit all shinobi. That doesn't mean I must know who can break Tsukuyomi and how, only that it's possible.

So it likes a lawyer going to fight a case but has no evidence. I get your question, i understood it, but it is you who misunderstood what i was doing....and what i was doing is simply asking a question and what you were doing is simply failing to respond to it.But finally i got the response.
AND also i believe i made a statement on this, with Itachi statement about only sharingan users can break it, the series in no way contradicted it. And a i've said a thousand times, top tier non uchihas got stomped with basic genjutsu....how is it possible for them to break tsukuyomi? so your statement has no juice until you can add some to it by proving the how and who.

Jason Wrote:
So the girl in that example is superhuman: confirmed. You'll have to do better than that. You still can't change the fact that KAKASHI made his statement.

Why do I have to do better than that when it's the words definition, lol?

But proves that it happens less than seconds,which a bunch of people with common sense would see as a moment/immediate/something that happened at once.i guess these people don't know what they're saying look at the third one, there is another superhuman who can move in no time .Lemme ask you this, what word would you use to describe tsukuyomi's speed then, if it's not instant?

Instant and Instantly are two different words. As I clearly shown, instantly only has one definition, while instant has many. So instantly can only be one thing unless we live in the 7th century.

So you're willing to accept that Itachi can inject his chakra into someone in no time in 0.0 seconds....but you can't accept that a jutsu can be as fast? you call that common sense?...i can't prove it because it doesn't exist, why don't you prove that itachi places someone in his genjutsu in NO TIME!!!!!! and show your proof of it being 0.00000000 seconds. I'll watch you fail.

Watch me fail? "The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they’ve never seen before extends before their eyes." 2nd Databook under Tsukuyomi. "After making eye contact with a target, Itachi Uchiha traps them in an illusion of his design." Wiki Tsukuyomi Page. You can keep watching. You lost.

Hey look that ex thief robbed bank x in the next ten years arrest him!!!....no they can't because there is no proof that he robbed the bank the incident hasn't occurred yet so he's innocent until proven guilty and the ex thief being proven guilty is beyond the realm of proof at the moment...so he's free and can't be arrested. Grade school logic. Apply the same logic to killerbee. At this point i feel like you're trolling man.

There is no proof for either side? you mean there is no proof for the side you're obviously leaning on. You think i'll post the wiki page without checking? i did check it's just all in your head and my proof is just not the wiki page, it's the manga and anime so far..he made no improvement, there is no sign of it, no proof. And where is your proof that Gaara can't use ultra instincts? i feel like you're not arguing with truths but is just arguing for the sake of being victorious.

So according to you, one cannot accept fan made theories? He either accepts one or the other? Makes perfect sense (sarcasm). You can cut the crap. I ain't giving you what you want. And no. There is no proof for either side. Where is your proof that states Bee never trained during the ten plus years? Or you going to dodge around that? Or you going to ask me for proof that I don't need to give cause I ain't claiming anything? Lol. Keep wasting your breath. I don't need to pick a side. You ain't anything too me, so your opinions mean nothing too me.

Yes, when Itachi uses Tsukuyomi, he's actively altering their perceptions. So he's there with them torturing them. My theory doesn't run into any problems; by nature of the technique, Itachi's perceptions are sped up to match so he can actively hurt his opponent. You don't know that he doesn't manipulate his own brain; in fact, there's more evidence that he's in the Genjutsu torturing them than evidence to the contrary.

Why wouldn't being the castor change that?

If you read my response, I said "When he's seen Itachi use it before." Even if Itachi was the only user, the fact that Zetsu knew the technique at all shows that he's seen it before and can recognize it. BTW, all throughout that fight, Zetsu noticed Itachi was off. Every time Itachi didn't dodge or was sloppy, Zetsu noticed and said something. He never once questioned Itachi's usage of Tsukuyomi, but instead praised Sasuke for breaking it.

Kakashi looked Itachi in the eye and Itachi got Kakashi in an illusion. That illusion is passed through their eyes until Tsukuyomi is over, which happens in like a second. So Kakashi was looking at Itachi's Mangekyo with his own Sharingan the entire time. If that were an Uchiha, they could break the technique because the technique is being passed through their own eyes; their own Sharingan. And with the added processing speed that Itachi essentially gives the victim, they have a shot at breaking the Genjutsu.

Two issues with your last argument. Kakashi's statements aren't relevant to this discussion because he's refering to everyone there, who are non Uchihas. Meaning none of them can break Tsukuyomi on their own. The partner method would work on any other Genjutsu, but not this Tsukuyomi because they'd never reach their partner in time.

Here's the second issue; if Kakashi really was implying that if Chiyo could break out herself, it'd be useless, who is Kakashi to give that information out? He's experienced Tsukuyomi once, and he couldn't break out even with his Sharingan. What makes him the leading authority on Tsukuyomi, and what gives his word more weight than the actual user of the technique? Kakashi couldn't possibly know that it'd be useless even if you could break out on your own. Because as far as he knows, it's impossible even with the Sharingan. Unless you're an Uchiha, like Itachi said.

The problem is, as far as it's known, putting the user (Itachi) in time dilation with the opponent, isn't a function of Tsukuyomi. There's no known method through which Itachi put himself under Time Dilation.

Zetsu does know about Tsukuyomi, but as far as recognizing it goes, he can only look at the external signs. He can't see what's actually going on inside. For all we know, Zetsu recognizes Tsukuyomi, by the opponent falling down, breathing heavily, before passing out.

Except Itachi himself, praised Kakashi for his analysis. Kakashi's words have weight due to Itachi and due to the fact he experienced it.

BrainBrand wrote:
The problem is, as far as it's known, putting the user (Itachi) in time dilation with the opponent, isn't a function of Tsukuyomi. There's no known method through which Itachi put himself under Time Dilation.

Zetsu does know about Tsukuyomi, but as far as recognizing it goes, he can only look at the external signs. He can't see what's actually going on inside. For all we know, Zetsu recognizes Tsukuyomi, by the opponent falling down, breathing heavily, before passing out.

Except Itachi himself, praised Kakashi for his analysis. Kakashi's words have weight due to Itachi and due to the fact he experienced it.

What do you mean as far as it's known? Itachi interacted with his victims in Tsukuyomi, showing he's in there with them. So it's a function of the technique for him to actively shape their experience. You your self agreed earlier when I said Itachi was actively shaping their experiences. Backtracking? Look:

BrainBrand said: - I agree that Itachi was controlling Sasuke's senses, but I'm not sure what your getting at or why you said it.

You really think Zetsu would only recognize by the user getting knocked out when that's what Kakashi does with Genjutsu Sharingan? In fact, Itachi and Kisame were surprised Kakashi was even conscious after Tsukuyomi at all. Here's the kicker though:

If that's your argument, how did Zetsu know that Itachi used Izanagi if Sasuke didn't even pass out?

There's absolutely no reason to disbelieve Zetsu, there's no hinting that Zetsu was misinformed. IT just doesn't fit your narrative so you're trying to say Zetsu couldn't recognize it, when Black Zetsu is like the leading authority on everything in the Shinobi world cus he's seen it all.

Itachi praised him for the analysis because like I said, It legitimately didn't matter if they actually could break each other out of Tsukuyomi, it's be over before they could. Only the victim has a shot at breaking out, and only if they're Uchiha. Again, I have no idea where you're figuring that Kakashi meant if Chiyo could break out on her own. There's absolutely no reason for him to believe that; He himself, a genjutsu expert and a SHaringan expert, could not break out. And Itachi said that only Uchiha could break out. Where would Kakashi get the idea that anyone else could break out?

BrainBrand said:

What Kakashi said is relevant. He implied even if it was possible for Chiyo to break Tsukuyomi, that whatever method she uses, won't work because she won't have time. So even if Chiyo could break out of it on her own, if Tsukuyomi was longer, it wouldn't make a difference, because it's over before she could break it.

Look, this was your argument. Where does it look like Kakashi implies that those with the ability to break the Genjutsu on themselves wouldn't have time? He's saying that in the context of their group, even those who could break the Genjutsu wouldn't have time. He's saying the partner method won't work. Kakashi himself couldn't have any clue whether or not it would've been useless if the victim could break out. He's never broken out and he's never seen anyone break out.

What do you mean as far as it's known? Itachi interacted with his victims in Tsukuyomi, showing he's in there with them. So it's a function of the technique for him to actively shape their experience. You your self agreed earlier when I said Itachi was actively shaping their experiences. Backtracking?

I didn't say Itachi was actively controlling Sasuke senses, just that he was controlling his senses.

You really think Zetsu would only recognize by the user getting knocked out when that's what Kakashi does with Genjutsu Sharingan? In fact, Itachi and Kisame were surprised Kakashi was even conscious after Tsukuyomi at all. Here's the kicker though:

If that's your argument, how did Zetsu know that Itachi used Izanagi if Sasuke didn't even pass out?

There's absolutely no reason to disbelieve Zetsu, there's no hinting that Zetsu was misinformed. IT just doesn't fit your narrative so you're trying to say Zetsu couldn't recognize it, when Black Zetsu is like the leading authority on everything in the Shinobi world cus he's seen it all.

Itachi praised him for the analysis because like I said, It legitimately didn't matter if they actually could break each other out of Tsukuyomi, it's be over before they could. Only the victim has a shot at breaking out, and only if they're Uchiha. Again, I have no idea where you're figuring that Kakashi meant if Chiyo could break out on her own. There's absolutely no reason for him to believe that; He himself, a genjutsu expert and a SHaringan expert, could not break out. And Itachi said that only Uchiha could break out. Where would Kakashi get the idea that anyone else could break out?

I didn't say he had to be knocked though, just that it may be one of the ways he finds out. Zetsu might have been able to tell that Sasuke was in Tsukuyomi due to the sweat on his face, him gasping for air and him falling down.

Black Zetsu may have a lot of knowlege, but that doesn't mean we should take everything he says at face value, otherwise Itachi is invincible due his spiritual weapons. Meaning he can beat Pain or Tobi by himself.

Look below

Look, this was your argument. Where does it look like Kakashi implies that those with the ability to break the Genjutsu on themselves wouldn't have time? He's saying that in the context of their group, even those who could break the Genjutsu wouldn't have time. He's saying the partner method won't work. Kakashi himself couldn't have any clue whether or not it would've been useless if the victim could break out. He's never broken out and he's never seen anyone break out.

It's the fact that he says "it has you instantly, it has nothing to do with whether or not they can break genjutsu." If he wanted to say those methods that Chiyo knew wouldn't work, he could just said "His ocular jutsu has you instantly, those methods won't work." or something of the sort, he said a blanket statement about how it doesn't matter if you can break genjutsu.

How is he "controlling" his senses if he's not "controlling" his senses? How does that work? Itachi has to actually control their senses. And like I said, there's two instances of him conversing with people in Tsukuyomi, which would be impossible if he wasn't in there.

You really think sweat on the face and falling down are his indicators? That's like almost every Genjutsu man. Madara made that happen to Ay, Sasuke made that happen to C, neither of them had Stukuyomi, and Black Zetsu has seen enough Uchiha to tell the difference from Genjutsu: Sharingan and Tsukuyomi.

Black Zetsu said virtually invincible. Because as long as he had the weapons active and his wits about him, he was. Obviously there are ways to get around it, hence "virtually." However, even this can be interpreted as hyperbole. Saying a jutsu is Tsukuyomi can't be interpreted as hyperbole.

"It has you instantly, it doesn't matter whether or not they can break the Genjutsu." Based on the translation you showed, it says "it has you" while noting it doesn't matter whether or not they can break it. That tells me that he's talking about the partner method.

Also in the translation I have open, I have the part where he says "If you are struck by that Eye Jutsu, his Genjutsu can affect you in an instant. There is no cancelling the effects of it." If we're talking about the same part, then it's the dialogue bubble next to a close up of Kakashi's face with him facing to the left.

Literally right above this text, he says " Well, that's alright for a normal Genjutsu Level... but in this case... it will be a little more trouble." He's literally talking about the methods that CHiyo mentioned and states it! Her methods were attack the castor or free the victim. Both wouldn't work because it'd be over before they could.

I don't think Itachi was actively controlling Sasuke's senses. Instead I think programmed Tsukuyomi to react a certain way and than it's out his hands, at least if he's using massive time dilation.

Also Sasuke was huffing and puffing as well.

In the viz translation Black Zetsu said simply invincible.

Couldn't Kakashi have meant literally there is no cancelling the effects (in the translation your using). I mean he could meant "that technique won't work, no technique would work" and actually meant that literally.

There was a guy on a different forum, who was trying to get the japanese text for the chapters Tsukuyomi was mentioned (not the scans, just the text), do you know where you can find that online? I think he wanted to know what exactly the japanese text said and he wanted to get some translators to comment on it so we know exactly what was going on.

I don't think Itachi was actively controlling Sasuke's senses. Instead I think programmed Tsukuyomi to react a certain way and than it's out his hands, at least if he's using massive time dilation.

Also Sasuke was huffing and puffing as well.

In the viz translation Black Zetsu said simply invincible.

Couldn't Kakashi have meant literally there is no cancelling the effects (in the translation your using). I mean he could meant "that technique won't work, no technique would work" and actually meant that literally.

There was a guy on a different forum, who was trying to get the japanese text for the chapters Tsukuyomi was mentioned (not the scans, just the text), do you know where you can find that online? I think he wanted to know what exactly the japanese text said and he wanted to get some translators to comment on it so we know exactly what was going on.

Again, Itachi can't preprogram the victim to react a certain way. So that means he can't preprogram conversations. And he's had conversations in Tsukuyomi.

Because he just exerted effort in breaking Tsukuyomi. Only Itachi had an alarmed expression, Sasuke was smiling.

The VIZ Translation isn't always the best when it comes to translating the intent of Japanese (which is why we have translators on our site). An example is the original first volume of Naruto (I have it) labelled Kakashi as the Mirror Ninja instead of the Copy Ninja.

So I show you where your claim didn't make sense in the context of the conversation Kakashi and Chiyo were having, and it's not enough? Kakashi said that her methods would be fine with normal Genjutsu, but they wouldn't be cancelling Tsukuyomi once it landed. Because in the context of their situation and ther conversation, they wouldn't be able to cancel it.

I don't know where to find Japanese text, but you can just even read the viz translation of the text above the text you cited lol. I'm sure Kakashi still says something along the lines of "your method is fine for normal genjutsu, but for this Genjutsu it's trickier"

Again, Itachi can't preprogram the victim to react a certain way. So that means he can't preprogram conversations. And he's had conversations in Tsukuyomi.

Because he just exerted effort in breaking Tsukuyomi. Only Itachi had an alarmed expression, Sasuke was smiling.

The VIZ Translation isn't always the best when it comes to translating the intent of Japanese (which is why we have translators on our site). An example is the original first volume of Naruto (I have it) labelled Kakashi as the Mirror Ninja instead of the Copy Ninja.

So I show you where your claim didn't make sense in the context of the conversation Kakashi and Chiyo were having, and it's not enough? Kakashi said that her methods would be fine with normal Genjutsu, but they wouldn't be cancelling Tsukuyomi once it landed. Because in the context of their situation and ther conversation, they wouldn't be able to cancel it.

I don't know where to find Japanese text, but you can just even read the viz translation of the text above the text you cited lol. I'm sure Kakashi still says something along the lines of "your method is fine for normal genjutsu, but for this Genjutsu it's trickier"

Itachi never had a conversation, in Tsukuyomi, in the manga.

Sasuke was smiling only after Itachi announced Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi.

I disagree. IMHO, Kakashi was saying that there method wouldn't work, because no method would work or something of that sort. This would be a much easier discussion if we had a translator, translate for us.

Itachi never announced that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, Black Zetsu said it to Zetsu.

How can you disagree with the text. Are you saying that your translation doesn't have Kakashi starting his response to Chiyo by saying that Chiyo's methods would work on regular Genjutsu, but not Itachi's Tsukuyomi?

Itachi never announced that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, Black Zetsu said it to Zetsu.

How can you disagree with the text. Are you saying that your translation doesn't have Kakashi starting his response to Chiyo by saying that Chiyo's methods would work on regular Genjutsu, but not Itachi's Tsukuyomi?

Only Itachi talked, Sasuke didn't reply.

Itachi said "you broke my Tsukuyomi?!" In the viz version.

I'm not disagreeing with the text, I'm saying what Kakashi was saying was different than what your saying. Imo Kakashi is saying to chiyo your methods won't work, because there is no method that works. I mean Kakashi flat out says in the translation your using their is no cancelling of the effects. Yes, he said after he said chiyo method doesn't work, but that doesn't mean he was only referring to Chiyo's methods.

@BrainBrand
I reread the part, you're right, Sasuke didn't talk. However, when Sasuke begins breaking out, Itachi visibly shows surprise that it's happening. He can't show surprise with a preprogramed Genjutsu. Itachi is there, actively manipulating. And he is surprised in there as Sasuke breaks it.

Just got a free trial of Viz, you're right on that count too. In any case, Sasuke just looked tired, while Itachi very freaking out based on his expression there.

Itachi said there is a method that works. My interpretation of Kakashi's words falls in line with that. Your interpretation says Kakashi said there is no way. How does Kakashi figure there is no way when there's no way he'd know there is no way?

You can't just cherry pick Kakashi's words to suit your needs. You have to look at the context of what he was saying. You have to read everything he said, not just separate them at your whim to suit you theory. He said all of these things continuously with no interruptions. How is it not obvious he was still talking about what everyone, including himself, was talking about?

So, when I tell you Kakashi and Itachi talked in Tsukuyomi, you tell me it never happened in the manga so it's not applicable. But when you use evidence from the anime it's just fine? Incredible. And you didn't even respond to my arguments this time around.

The fact that you're trying to stop me from using the anime as reference but you yourself decide to use an anime only conversation is... pretty lame to put it lightly lol. I've played by your rules and stopped citing the evidence that only happened in the anime because apparently that wasn't good enough. Now suddenly it is.

I'll respond to any arguments you have against my actual points. I already disabled my Viz trial, I don't wanna start it up again. Unless the conversation you're talking about is in the manga too? Because I haven't seen it

EDIT: I guess Viz let me look at the video anyways. GOing to 14:01, I didn't see that TSukuyomi was unbreakable

AsianReaper wrote:
@BrainBrand
I reread the part, you're right, Sasuke didn't talk. However, when Sasuke begins breaking out, Itachi visibly shows surprise that it's happening. He can't show surprise with a preprogramed Genjutsu. Itachi is there, actively manipulating. And he is surprised in there as Sasuke breaks it.

Just got a free trial of Viz, you're right on that count too. In any case, Sasuke just looked tired, while Itachi very freaking out based on his expression there.

Itachi said there is a method that works. My interpretation of Kakashi's words falls in line with that. Your interpretation says Kakashi said there is no way. How does Kakashi figure there is no way when there's no way he'd know there is no way?

You can't just cherry pick Kakashi's words to suit your needs. You have to look at the context of what he was saying. You have to read everything he said, not just separate them at your whim to suit you theory. He said all of these things continuously with no interruptions. How is it not obvious he was still talking about what everyone, including himself, was talking about?

Write a message on their talkpages

Itachi could have preprogrammed it too respond, like he would to unexpected situations.

But I'm not cherry-picking lol. I said in my previous post, that Kakashi said there was no cancelling the effects, after he said Chiyo's methods don't work. In the version your using he said basically

"Well that's alright for a normal genjutsu level, but in this case it will be more troublesome. He uses an jutsu that surpasses the original sharingan, the Mangekyou Sharingan. If you struck by his eye jutsu, his genjutsu can affect you in an instant. There is no cancelling the effects. "

Like I said in the post you just mentioned, just because he said there's no cancelling the affects after he said Chiyo's methods won't work, it doesn't mean he was only talking about Chiyo's methods.

Sorry about that, the scene is at 13:53. The reason I'm using anime in this situation is for a couple reasons:

1. The scenes in the anime, regarding Tsukuyomi, are exactly the same as the scene in the manga up to the scene where he says Tsukuyomi is unbreakable. Meaning, he talks about exactly the same things, with no added material about Tsukuyomi, up till that point.

2. It is a highly controversial topic, this can help shed light on it.

3. I couldn't find the original japanese text of chapter 142, in a written down form, so this was the best I could do.

@BrainBrand
You're reaching very far for this. The castor of Genjutsu has always actively controlled their opponent's senses in the series.

You are cherry picking. You're trying to use Kakashi's second statement without acknowledging his first statement.

Also, again, how could Kakashi know there's no way to break the Genjutsu period? He isn't an Uchiha. Itachi said only Uchihas could break out. Why would Kakashi suddenly believe there's no way to break it at all?

I'm at work so I can't watch the video now.

1. The scenes leading up to their conversation in Tsukuyomi are the same as the Manga too, isn't that right? So why is your scene acceptable as evidence when mine isn't?

2. My scene could shed light on the situation too, but you wanna omit it.

3. k

4. I already showed you the problem with Viz translations.

Also, you say Itachi said Tsukuyomi is unbreakable in that scene. I haven't rewatched in a second, but doesn't he say in that very same fight that only Uchihas can break out? So wouldn't it make sense for him to say that to someone who's not an Uchiha?

Tsukuyomi is not like other genjutsu, Tsukuyomi uses massive time dilation. I don't see it as an reach. Can you tell me how Itachi puts himself under time dilation than? If you can give me a good comprehensive explanation for how he could do that, I'll stop talking about it, for now.

I'm not cherry picking, I acknowledged both Kakashi first and second statement in my last post. I said just because after Kakashi mentioned that Chiyo's methods won't work (Kakashi's first statement), he said that there was no cancelling the effects (the second statement) doesn't mean he was only talking about Chiyo's methods.

1. What scenes of yours are talking about?

4. If we can't trust Viz than the only ones we can trust in this situation are the translators.

No, he says only an Uchiha with the same blood as him can defeat him, after he says Tsukuyomi was unbreakable.

Tsukuyomi is a technique where the cator puts the victim under massive time dilation so it's completely reasonable to say that it extends to themselves too. I've already given you examples of them interacting within Tsukuyomi. You're going for pre-programmed despite nothing implying that.

You are cherry picking, because you're separating the statements to get only use what he said in the second statement. Kakashi is talking about Chiyo's methods. He notes that first. But you're ignoring the context of the first statement to get a different meaning from the second statement.

1. When Itachi and Kakashi talk inside Tsukuyomi.

4. I'm just saying that the fact that it's "Vis translation" doesn't make it the most accurate.

Considering Uchiha are a clan, of course they have the same blood. Even Madara acknowledges that he and Sasuke have a blood connection (when he's noting that they have a deeper connection than blood).

So after he said that, he says to Kakashi that Tsukuyomi is unbreakable (in the anime since apparently we're using that now). Considering Kakashi isn't an Uchiha, it makes sense for him to say that, doesn't it?

AsianReaper wrote:
Tsukuyomi is a technique where the cator puts the victim under massive time dilation so it's completely reasonable to say that it extends to themselves too. I've already given you examples of them interacting within Tsukuyomi. You're going for pre-programmed despite nothing implying that.

You are cherry picking, because you're separating the statements to get only use what he said in the second statement. Kakashi is talking about Chiyo's methods. He notes that first. But you're ignoring the context of the first statement to get a different meaning from the second statement.

1. When Itachi and Kakashi talk inside Tsukuyomi.

4. I'm just saying that the fact that it's "Vis translation" doesn't make it the most accurate.

Considering Uchiha are a clan, of course they have the same blood. Even Madara acknowledges that he and Sasuke have a blood connection (when he's noting that they have a deeper connection than blood).

So after he said that, he says to Kakashi that Tsukuyomi is unbreakable (in the anime since apparently we're using that now). Considering Kakashi isn't an Uchiha, it makes sense for him to say that, doesn't it?

How does Itachi put himself in time dilation when he uses Tsukuyomi?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your assuming that since Kakashi said that Chiyo's methods won't work heonly meant that Chiyo's methods don't work, which is part of what I take issue with. You might have a case if Kakashi didn't make a sweeping statement,but he did. Just because he mentioned Chiyo's methods won't work before hand, doesn't change the fact that Kakashi did make a sweeping statement afterwards, which means he wasn't only talking about Chiyo's methods, otherwise he wouldn't have used a sweeping statement.

1. Itachi and Kakashi talking in Tsukuyomi only happened in the anime, but what I'm talking about is different. The scenes I'm using happened in both the anime and the manga.

How does FTG teleport the user? How does combining spiritual energy and physical energy create chakra? Dude, it's the nature of the technique. Itachi can cause the time dilation, so obviously he can affect himself too.

He made that statement within the context of his whole message to Chiyo. It's like me saying, "I wouldn't be able to fight Conor McGreggor, that's impossible." When I say "that's impossible," I'm obviously not saying it's impossible for everyone. I'm saying it's impossible for me, evidenced by the first part of the statement.

1. What you're talking about is not different, you yourself stated that him saying Tsukuyomi is unbreakable only happened in the anime. Pick a side: use anime or don't.

You're kidding me. You can make all these leaps in logic to justify your theories like saying Tsukuyomi is preprogrammed and whatnot, but you can't take Itachi saying "only an Uchiha with my blood can beat me," as him saying they could beat his techniques too, like Tsukuyomi? Really? It's gotta be a specific statement? How would an Uchiha beat Itachi if they couldn't beat Tsukuyomi? What logic is this?

It's not obvious that Itachi can use time dilation on himself, it was never mentioned that itachi could do that.

It's more like this: "Chuck Norris can be beat with moves like dragon uppercut and hurricane kick." And then I say "Chuck Norris can't be beat with any moves."

1. It is different, I said the scenes are the same (meaning he talks about the same stuff). And Tsukuyomi was said to be unbreakable in the manga, depending on which translation you use.

The interpretation of Itachi's broad statement, that beating Tsukuyomi means beating Itachi doesn't make sense. How could he claim that defeating a singular facet of his arsenal in it's totality equates to officially taking him down? Why would a Uchiha beating Tsukuyomi mean they beat Itachi as a whole?

BrainBrand wrote:
It's not obvious that Itachi can use time dilation on himself, it was never mentioned that itachi could do that.

It's more like this: "Chuck Norris can be beat with moves like dragon uppercut and hurricane kick." And then I say "Chuck Norris can't be beat with any moves."

1. It is different, I said the scenes are the same (meaning he talks about the same stuff). And Tsukuyomi was said to be unbreakable in the manga, depending on which translation you use.

The interpretation of Itachi's broad statement, that beating Tsukuyomi means beating Itachi doesn't make sense. How could he claim that defeating a singular facet of his arsenal in it's totality equates to officially taking him down? Why would a Uchiha beating Tsukuyomi mean they beat Itachi as a whole?

It is obvious, you're ignoring it because it doesn't fit your theory. It was never mentioned that Itachi sent a preprogramed Genjutsu out either. I've even given you examples of his interactions within Tsukuyomi lol.

That's a horrible way to put it. If you want to get as close to what Itachi said as possible, here: during a fight with Chuck Norris "Chuck Norris can only be beat by Bruce Lee... his defense is unbreakable." So, what do we gather? The fighters engaged with Mr. Norris can't break through his defense, but Bruce Lee would beat him. Lol it's not hard to put two and two together.

1. What the hell, you're really trying to justify using something said only in the anime when you yourself don't want me to use evidence from the anime? Lol this is ansane. By that same token, Itachi and Kakashi were in the same scene; Kakashi getting tortured by Itachi for 72 hours. The anime added dialogue. Your scene happened in the manga, but then the anime added dialogue. It's the same thing.

No, you're getting confused. Itachi says an Uchiha with the same blood can beat him. So, how would they beat him if they can't get past Tsukuyomi? Defeating Tsukuyomi is a prerequisite to beating Itachi. He's not saying that if you beat Tsukuyomi, you beat Itachi. The statement is saying that in order to beat Itachi at all, you have to be able to break Tsukuyomi.

It is obvious, you're ignoring it because it doesn't fit your theory. It was never mentioned that Itachi sent a preprogramed Genjutsu out either. I've even given you examples of his interactions within Tsukuyomi lol.

Let's get several other peoples opinions, who have different views. It's clear that neither of us will probably budge otherwise.

That's a horrible way to put it. If you want to get as close to what Itachi said as possible, here: during a fight with Chuck Norris "Chuck Norris can only be beat by Bruce Lee... his defense is unbreakable." So, what do we gather? The fighters engaged with Mr. Norris can't break through his defense, but Bruce Lee would beat him. Lol it's not hard to put two and two together.

I think you're confused, you first were talking about Kakashi's message to Chiyo and than you said used an example with McGregor. We weren't talking about what Itachi said here.

1. What the hell, you're really trying to justify using something said only in the anime when you yourself don't want me to use evidence from the anime? Lol this is ansane. By that same token, Itachi and Kakashi were in the same scene; Kakashi getting tortured by Itachi for 72 hours. The anime added dialogue. Your scene happened in the manga, but then the anime added dialogue. It's the same thing.

The anime added scenes when it came to showing Kakashi getting tortured, but didn't add scenes when it came to when Itachi was explaining Tsukuyomi, just before he put Kakashi into Tsukuyomi. That's the difference. The same scenes I'm talking, happened in the manga, the anime didn't add dialogue there.

No, you're getting confused. Itachi says an Uchiha with the same blood can beat him. So, how would they beat him if they can't get past Tsukuyomi? Defeating Tsukuyomi is a prerequisite to beating Itachi. He's not saying that if you beat Tsukuyomi, you beat Itachi. The statement is saying that in order to beat Itachi at all, you have to be able to break Tsukuyomi.

I used the Chuck Norris example to show why your interpretation anime dialogue didn't make sense in the context it was in. If we want to talk about the message to Chiyo, then here's an example. Think of the Boxer as Itachi, Chiyo who thinks Muay Thai would work, and Kakashi as the one explaining why it wouldn't work.

"A good strategy to take down an assailant who boxes is to utilize Muay Thai."

"That would work for regular boxers, but for this boxer it's trickier. His strike defense. No matter what strike you do, he can parry it instantly."

So, we know that strikers have no chance against this boxer in the scenario. But what about Judo, who uses throws and submissions instead of strikes? They could have a shot. Especially if that boxer explicitly stated that Judo practitioners could beat him.

The anime showed what the manga said happened: 72 hours of torture. It added dialogue. And you yourself said that the anime added dialogue at the end of your example. You said the scenes were the same up until the "unbreakable" dialogue. Both scenes added dialogue. Pick a side.

AsianReaper wrote:
@BrainBrand,
The anime showed what the manga said happened: 72 hours of torture. It added dialogue. And you yourself said that the anime added dialogue at the end of your example. You said the scenes were the same up until the "unbreakable" dialogue. Both scenes added dialogue. Pick a side.

The scenes were the same until after Itachi puts him in Tsukuyomi, it's only after Tsukuyomi, when it differs. The scenes I'm talking about were the same as the manga.

Tsukuyomi was depicted the same way as in the manga, with only added dialogue. Just like your scene. I still can't believe you want to use anime-only dialogue when you wouldn't literally accept anime-only dialogue when both scenes did in fact happen in the manga. Also, I already gave you an example of why your anime dialogue doesn't help your argument. You said you'd think on it.

Either use manga+anime or manga only. Don't flip-flop between the two when it suits you. It brings your arguments down.

So, @Asian says Itachi also experiences time-dilation during Tsukuyomi, but not suffering any negative effects?

@Brain says Itachi prerecords a message of sorts?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok, so from what we know from genjutsu, is the user creates and controls the 'illusion' cast on the opponent. The user can be in direct control, e.g. Kurenai using genjutsu on Itachi , or the users can take advantage of the indirect effects of genjutsu, e.g. Sasuke using genjutsu to immobilize Cee.

Tsukuyomi used to it's fullest has time dilation as it's main source of strength. The mechanics of Tsukuyomi is unknown, but due to the intricate nature of time-dilation plus custom scenarios, it would require direct control. So, from my understanding it's as @Asian says.

@Ninja yeah you have my argument correct. I think you have@Brain's argument correct too, but I don't wanna speak for him.

@BrainBrand, you are flipflopping. You're using a scene in the manga, but the dialogue added by the anime. That's exactly my example. A scene in the manga, with dialogue added by the anime. You want only yours to be valid but not mine.

It's a function of the technique. Itachi uses Tsukuyomi and therefore experiences Time Dilation as well.

No, there's a difference. It not added dialogue by the anime, it just a different translation of the same dialogue.

Your using a scene that's only in the anime and trying to use it in the manga. There is no scene of Itachi asking Kakashi "How long will you last?" in the manga. I'm using scenes that are both in the anime and the manga.

@Ninja of War,

Why would a Tsukuyomi that uses Time Dilation to the fullest, need to be directly controlled. Itachi can just make Tsukuyomi's experiences repeat, when using massive time dilation. In fact, whenever Itachi used massive time dilation he made it repeat. Against Sasuke, he made Sasuke experience the same day over and over again. Against Kakashi he made Kakashi experience getting stabbed over and over again.

We have never seen a Tsukuyomi, that we know is using massive time dilation, do anything, but repeat.

@BrainBrand, you're ridiculous. You yourself said the anime followed the manga up until the point where Itachi said it was unbreakable. So that means, the unbreakable bit was added to the anime.

Also, Itachi and Kakashi in Tsukuyomi is most certainly a scene from the manga! They added the dialogue of their conversation, just like your scene added dialogue. But the scene is in the manga. It's not like I'm using dialogue from a novel; those scenes didn't happen in the manga. But Itachi and Kakashi in Tsukuyomi definitely was in the manga, and all they did was add dialogue.

Again, you can't prerecord reactions. You're stretching so far to get your theory to seem plausible

AsianReaper wrote:
@BrainBrand, you're ridiculous. You yourself said the anime followed the manga up until the point where Itachi said it was unbreakable. So that means, the unbreakable bit was added to the anime.

Also, Itachi and Kakashi in Tsukuyomi is most certainly a scene from the manga! They added the dialogue of their conversation, just like your scene added dialogue. But the scene is in the manga. It's not like I'm using dialogue from a novel; those scenes didn't happen in the manga. But Itachi and Kakashi in Tsukuyomi definitely was in the manga, and all they did was add dialogue.

Again, you can't prerecord reactions. You're stretching so far to get your theory to seem plausible

Sorry about that, what I meant to say was it follows the manga up until after that point. I had a brain fart. The unbreakable bit was not added to the anime.

Still I should have looked back, because if you look in the viz anime translation, its the same as the manga, until Tsukuyomi is actually activated and Itachi says "I wonder how much you can take without the kekkai genkai."

He can possibly pre-program how in the genjutsu world, his illusionary self would reacts. For instance pre-program his genjutsu self to act as he would, regardless of the situation.

Why would a Tsukuyomi that uses Time Dilation to the fullest, need to be directly controlled. Itachi can just make Tsukuyomi's experiences repeat, when using massive time dilation. In fact, whenever Itachi used massive time dilation he made it repeat. Against Sasuke, he made Sasuke experience the same day over and over again. Against Kakashi he made Kakashi experience getting stabbed over and over again.

We have never seen a Tsukuyomi, that we know is using massive time dilation, do anything, but repeat.

It's not really repeat, more like continuing on as in extended torture. I would say Itachi needs direct control to keep Tsukuyomi going.

@BrainBrand, I'm now done talking about the anime. You're stretching so far to be allowed to include whatever dialogue you're talking about from the anime, but not accepting other dialogue to the anime despite both instances being supplementary to a scene already in the manga. Don't give me references from the anime anymore as evidence, because for this debate I'll just ignore it.

Okay? So the anime added dialogue again, but then they're in Tsukuyomi with the whole stabby thing. Same as the manga.It's the same scene. They added dialogue. But let's ignore this anyways because I'm not discussing anime with you and your double standards anymore.

So you get to stretch yourself into sayin that Itachi can preprogram an entire AI of himself that can process time dilation, but you're saying Itachi can't make himself experience time dilation because it was never explained how?

Despite never being explained, you're willing to assume that Itachi can make an AI of himself that can react andwhatnot under the effects of massive time dilation.

But because it was never explained, you can't accept that Itachi can experience time dilation despite examples of him reacting in Tsukuyomi, as well as precedents set by other Shinobi of actively controlling senses in a Genjutsu?

No, in the Tsukuyomi illusion scene, they didn't just add dialogue. There is literally 2 Kakashi's in the Tsukuyomi scene in the anime, at one point, in the manga, there is only 1 Kakashi. It's different than the manga, it's plain as day.

And no, is not a double standards. I've already said that I'm using scenes that are both in the manga and the anime. However since, you don't want to talk about it, I'll stop here.

Tsukuyomi is not like other genjutsu, since it would require an additional element for it work, than other genjutsu, since Tsukuyomi increases the opponent's perception drastically. You think Itachi's using time dilation on himself, somehow and I think he's programming it beforehand. Let me ask you this since you deny the possibility of Tsukuyomi being programmed, how is Itachi able to control several people at once, with genjutsu, if he doesn't preprogram the genjutsu?

Tsukuyomi is the same scene. They changed nothing of importance at all. The same exact cause, effect, process, everything. The second Kakashi isn't giving or taking away from the dialogue added to the scene.

If that's the case, then please provide the chapter and whatnot so i can actually read it from the manga instead of the scene from the anime because we're not using anime.

Because Itachi's that good with Genjutsu? Lol you serious? He's literally that good. It's called multitasking.

As I already explained the anime adds a 2nd Kakashi as well as adding dialogue. And there's a big difference considering they have a conversation with each other in the anime and in the manga they didn't.

Chapter 142

Have you ever thought of 2 same things at the same time? because that is what it would take to actively control 2 different opponents at exactly the same time, in the way your describing it.

As I already explained the anime adds a 2nd Kakashi as well as adding dialogue. And there's a big difference considering they have a conversation with each other in the anime and in the manga they didn't.

Chapter 142

Have you ever thought of 2 same things at the same time? because that is what it would take to actively control 2 different opponents at exactly the same time, in the way your describing it.

Again, nothing of importance.

Oh, the same dialogue that you said that I may be right in my argument about, but you said you'd think about it. No rush

They're ninjas. No one thinks as fast or reacts or does anything on their calibre. I totally believe Itachi is skilled enough to actively control multiple victims at once. When has he ever done more than 2 before though?

It was said only Itachi could control mutiple people from that distance, then they said it was too many people being controlled so it can't be Itachi. Showing he can cast long distance Genjutsu on multiple people and control them.

AsianReaper wrote:
The translation I read said more or less "they have to be on Itachi's level to control somebody from this distance, but the control is too precise for this distance."

The translation I used implied multiple people could be controlled by Itachi. Although, it doesn't matter anyway. I'll use a different example, when Kabuto used Tayuya's genjutsu on both Itachi and Sasuke, how was he able to actively control both of their illusions at the same time?

The translation I used implied multiple people could be controlled by Itachi. Although, it doesn't matter anyway. I'll use a different example, when Kabuto used Tayuya's genjutsu on both Itachi and Sasuke, how was he able to actively control both of their illusions at the same time?

Looking at the Genjutsu, he just trapped them. He wasn't there actively talking, torturing, nothing. Just trapped them. That's not active lol

And now you're comparing something on the scale of using a power that far surpasses Kurama, who's power suprasses those of the other Tailed Beasts, who all surpass the powers of almost every Shinobi, who almost all have more chakra than Itachi who said himself that his reserves weren't even average.

Besides, Infinite Tsukuyomi is a jutsu that uses the victim's dreams. Their happiness. They're not being actively controlled, they're actually in a a Genjutsu created by their subconscious idea of a happy life. And even this is only possible with the actual Juubi who's power surpasses pretty much everything in the series.

It doesn't matter how powerful it is, it doesn't change the fact that whoever uses infinite Tsukuyomi is control multiple people at once and if there not doing it actively than that means there's another way to control people than actively controlling people.

It doesn't matter how powerful it is, it doesn't change the fact that whoever uses infinite Tsukuyomi is control multiple people at once and if there not doing it actively than that means there's another way to control people than actively controlling people.

I literally just pointed out how it doesn't apply. With more power, you can do more and more easily. That's the case with almost all jutsu.

And again, Infinite Tsukuyomi isn't a jutsu that has the castor actively manipulate the Genjutsu of each person. It's a jutsu that takes the subconscious desires of the victim and makes them live those desires. The victim doesn't realize it, but they're the source of their illusion.

[[1]] Someone said they wanted a raw for Tsukuyomi. There it is. As for if Itachi is experiencing the Genjutsu as well, the 2nd Databook sheds light in it.

"Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world’s common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster’s hands."
This states the opponents fate is lying inside the caster's hand. It hasn't already been laid. It is, at that moment in their hands. Which means the caster can do with them whatever they want at that time.

"The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they’ve never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world’s principles themselves obey the caster’s beck and call."
According to this entry, the illusion is at the caster's beck and call. Beck and call is an expression which means you are ready to obey their orders or commands. The illusion is ready to fulfill Itachi's desire.

"The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency."

This last entry basically flat out says Itachi can change the illusion. It even says the mental realm is entirely the caster's TO command. How can he change it if he doesn't know what's going down?

Where does it say that with more power, you can actively control more people?

So it is possible for a user of genjutsu to not actively control their genjutsu than.

I said the case with most jutsu is that the more power, the more you can control or do or whatever. Multi Light String Formation, Shadow Paralysis, the thing where Ino's dad sent Shikaku's thoughts to everyone on the battlefield, etc.

You're really not getting it. Infinite Tsukuyomi (we shouldn't even be comparing since they're so far apart in terms of scale and power it's like a grain of sand compared to a beach) uses the victim's subconscious to shape the genjutsu.

JamesSenpai wrote:
[[1]] Someone said they wanted a raw for Tsukuyomi. There it is. As for if Itachi is experiencing the Genjutsu as well, the 2nd Databook sheds light in it.

"Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world’s common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster’s hands."
This states the opponents fate is lying inside the caster's hand. It hasn't already been laid. It is, at that moment in their hands. Which means the caster can do with them whatever they want at that time.

"The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they’ve never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world’s principles themselves obey the caster’s beck and call."
According to this entry, the illusion is at the caster's beck and call. Beck and call is an expression which means you are ready to obey their orders or commands. The illusion is ready to fulfill Itachi's desire.

"The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency."

This last entry basically flat out says Itachi can change the illusion. It even says the mental realm is entirely the caster's TO command. How can he change it if he doesn't know what's going down?

Thanks for the raw of the databook, but what I was asking for was the japanese text of chapters 142 and 257. Or was it me, who asked lol.

Images shown can be changed from person to person, depending on what illusion he decides to show them at the beginning.

@BrainBrand, how is saying Itachi can change the illusion he casts at one person to a different one when he casts it at another? Maybe that's where are misunderstanding is; I have no idea how that statement counters what the databook said; that the illusion was at Itachi's beck and call and whatnot. That's an obvious indication that Itachi can change the illusion as he pleases. Also just a reminder in case you forgot:

BrainBrand wrote:

AsianReaper wrote:
No, you're getting confused. Itachi says an Uchiha with the same blood can beat him. So, how would they beat him if they can't get past Tsukuyomi? Defeating Tsukuyomi is a prerequisite to beating Itachi. He's not saying that if you beat Tsukuyomi, you beat Itachi. The statement is saying that in order to beat Itachi at all, you have to be able to break Tsukuyomi.

He was referring to Sasuke the entire time, that is literally it. He was never talking about other Uchiha, his whole goal was to make Sasuke strong enough to at least push him towards his own death considering his disease and in order to make all that happen he said whatever he needed to say and did whatever he needed to do. The only use of Tsukuyomi that was ever broken out of was by a Sasuke in P2, Itachi was near blind, near death, and had no time dilation at all in the genjutsu, it was like a normal genjutsu all the way around. So saying that anybody could break it, or that any Uchiha could break it is just pure nonsense.

I'll be honest I haven't thought about that in a long time, because I thought you were confusing things and making a mistake, assuming that if your right, it would have destroyed my anime-manga dialogue argument, when that's actually not the case. I thought it would be an hassle to try to explain so I just forget about it. This is what you wrote:

AsianReaper wrote:
Tsukuyomi was depicted the same way as in the manga, with only added dialogue. Just like your scene. I still can't believe you want to use anime-only dialogue when you wouldn't literally accept anime-only dialogue when both scenes did in fact happen in the manga. Also, I already gave you an example of why your anime dialogue doesn't help your argument. You said you'd think on it.

@Flatzone, you don't know that he was only talking about Sasuke. Also, how do we know he wasn't using time dilation again? Must have missed the part where that was stated.

@BrainBrand, WHat exactly is your argument against the databook stating that once activated, Tsukuyomi's world at Itachi's beck and call?

Sorry for confusing you. I was telling you why the dialogue you provided from the anime doesn't work in your favor, it wasn't to do with a discrepancy between anime and manga. I was just examining the dialogue. And you said you'd have to think on it.

The fact it looks nothing like Tsukuyomi at all, as shown when Kabuto caught them in the Sage Mode boosted https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Demonic_Flute:_Phantom_Sound_Chains it is an inverted world when used with full force and actual time dilation, the ONLY time it didn't have the inverted world, and seemed to have no time dilation was when he was fighting Sasuke in P2 and obviously he never actually wanted to kill or mentally disable Sasuke, clearly holding back the power of the tech.. and as for catching somebody in a genjutsu forcefully, Itachi does it on page 387 page 13, Sasuke could do nothing about it.

@FLatzone, did you actually read the fight? It was normal colors at first. But when Sasuke started to break Tsukuyomi, the colors started peeling back and revealing it was inverted, which is Tsukuyomi. Itachi didn't mean to let Sasuke know it was Tsukuyomi, but as soon as Sasuke began to break it, its true colors started appearing.

So, since I just proved that the color inversion was there, what's your proof that time dilation wasn't used?

@BrainBrand, WHat exactly is your argument against the databook stating that once activated, Tsukuyomi's world at Itachi's beck and call?

Sorry for confusing you. I was telling you why the dialogue you provided from the anime doesn't work in your favor, it wasn't to do with a discrepancy between anime and manga. I was just examining the dialogue. And you said you'd have to think on it.

That Itachi can change his Tsukuyom's illusion, at the beginning, based on who he decides to use it against and what's best for that opponent.

How does your statement even relate to that? The statement refers to the fact that once it's activated, Itachi can change the world's principles on a whim. You're saying that he can change what he decides to start the illusion off as. They're not related lol. The databook literally says "once activated." Not "before activation."

No it doesn't and that's not even an argument against what I already told you.

"No, you're getting confused. Itachi says an Uchiha with the same blood can beat him. So, how would they beat him if they can't get past Tsukuyomi? Defeating Tsukuyomi is a prerequisite to beating Itachi. He's not saying that if you beat Tsukuyomi, you beat Itachi. The statement is saying that in order to beat Itachi at all, you have to be able to break Tsukuyomi."

In case you forgot the last argument about it that you forgot to respond to

No it doesn't and that's not even an argument against what I already told you.

"No, you're getting confused. Itachi says an Uchiha with the same blood can beat him. So, how would they beat him if they can't get past Tsukuyomi? Defeating Tsukuyomi is a prerequisite to beating Itachi. He's not saying that if you beat Tsukuyomi, you beat Itachi. The statement is saying that in order to beat Itachi at all, you have to be able to break Tsukuyomi."

In case you forgot the last argument about it that you forgot to respond to

The anime argument does work in my favor. Since in the anime, Itachi literally says Tsukuyomi is unbreakable, he couldn't have meant that Uchiha with sharingan could break it, that would contradict what he just said.

It doesn't work in your favor. In your dialogue, Itachi literally states only an Uchiha could beat him. Right after he claimed Tsukuyomi was unbreakable. He obviously means the Uchiha could break it. If the Uchiha couldn't break it, how would they beat Itachi? They have to be able to beat Tsukuyomi to even have a chance of beating Itachi.

He wouldn't say it's literally unbreakable, if he was just going to immediately say it can be broken. Tsukuyomi can be avoided, by avoiding eye contact.

So you think Itachi thought he himself was stronger than Pain? Itachi didn't even think he was stronger than Jiraiya. When he says "Only an Uchiha can defeat me." he obviously means in relation to Tsukuyomi, mentioned literally right before. Otherwise, he'd be claiming himself invincible against every Shinobi except Sasuke, which we know isn't true.

So you think Itachi thought he himself was stronger than Pain? Itachi didn't even think he was stronger than Jiraiya. When he says "Only an Uchiha can defeat me." he obviously means in relation to Tsukuyomi, mentioned literally right before. Otherwise, he'd be claiming himself invincible against every Shinobi except Sasuke, which we know isn't true.

That's what I think? Itachi only said that, because he wasn't planning to fight Jiraiya.

@BrainBrand I'm asking you, do you think Itachi is stronger than Pain? And also that's a whole lot of speculation on the dialogue. Especially since those two are even considered equal in the databooks.

Do you really think Itachi believed himself to be unbeatable by anyone but Sasuke?

Alright, have you thought about this?

AsianReaper wrote:
@BrainBrand

"Once activated, Tsukuyomi's world is at Itachi's beck and call."

How does your statement even relate to that? The statement refers to the fact that once it's activated, Itachi can change the world's principles on a whim. You're saying that he can change what he decides to start the illusion off as. They're not related lol. The databook literally says "once activated." Not "before activation."

Because honestly saying "I have to think on it" seems suspicious now that you've forgotten once before. It seems like an easy way to forget about an argument that you have no counter for tbh. What's your answer?

It doesn't matter whether I think Itachi can beat Pain, it's what Itachi thought that matters...but if you want to know, I think it may be possible. I think Itachi thought he was unstoppable.

It does matter, because that affects how I move forward with my argument with you.

Really? You think Itachi thought he was unstoppable? Shoot if he was unstoppable, why not take down the Akatsuki one by one in order to stop their whole collecting Tailed Beasts thing? Why not just kill Obito since he knew that his Tobi persona wasn't real and that his intentions were bad?

1) If you do not think Itachi believed he was unbeatable by anyone who's not an Uchiha, then obviously the dialogue you chose would indicate Tsukuyomi was what he was talking about when he could be only beaten by an Uchiha.

2) If you do believe he thought himself unbeatable to anyone who wasn't an Uchiha, I'd have to figure out why you thought that and how to dismantle that argument because honestly Itachi himself said it wasn't the case, like with Jiraiya.

So yes, it's relevant.

Oh? So Itachi couldn't use Tsukuyomi on one and take them out in an instant, leaving it to be a one on one? Also if he killed them, no witnesses would know he killed them so no one would come after him.

What do you mean Obito and him weren't in the same place for years, they were part of Akatsuki.

Also why didn't Itachi just kill Obito as soon as the massacre was done?

And again, Itachi himself stated he couldn't outright defeat Jiraiya. This is supported by Kishi as they're exactly the same in the databooks. So he couldn't have thought himself unbeatable, there's his literal statement to the contrary.

AsianReaper wrote:
@BrainBrand

"Once activated, Tsukuyomi's world is at Itachi's beck and call."

How does your statement even relate to that? The statement refers to the fact that once it's activated, Itachi can change the world's principles on a whim. You're saying that he can change what he decides to start the illusion off as. They're not related lol. The databook literally says "once activated." Not "before activation."

1) If you do not think Itachi believed he was unbeatable by anyone who's not an Uchiha, then obviously the dialogue you chose would indicate Tsukuyomi was what he was talking about when he could be only beaten by an Uchiha.

So yes, it's relevant.

Oh? So Itachi couldn't use Tsukuyomi on one and take them out in an instant, leaving it to be a one on one? Also if he killed them, no witnesses would know he killed them so no one would come after him.

What do you mean Obito and him weren't in the same place for years, they were part of Akatsuki.

Also why didn't Itachi just kill Obito as soon as the massacre was done?

And again, Itachi himself stated he couldn't outright defeat Jiraiya. This is supported by Kishi as they're exactly the same in the databooks. So he couldn't have thought himself unbeatable, there's his literal statement to the contrary.

1. Me thinking it's true wouldn't actually indicate that it was true, I don't have the power to make something true in the manga. What's important is whether, Itachi's words indicate it's true or not.

Pein would know the Akatsuki are being killed since they wouldn't be catching Biju and he could send Zetsu to watch them secretly, once Itachi starts killing them. Also Itachi has a partner that's there monitoring him, Kisame.