Friday, October 26, 2012

How Many Times Do I Have to Clarify?

Now how many times do I have to clarify why I do not respond to all your comments personally? Well, I will say it once again, that I live in a fucking Islamic country, and Robert Spencer himself advised me not to post on my blog myself, so each time I want to voice my views, I just write an article and then email it to Bob to just put it up on my blog so in case some psychopath Islamist wants to track me down to kill me, he can never do that by the IP or whatever way they are supposed to track people down.

I would like to thank everyone for their very inspiring and encouraging comments or at least most of them are, some like skouti really do not make much of a difference. As they say, you can’t shut up every barking dog on the street.

Regarding Islam being a peaceful religion, that is precisely what I believed in most of my life, and that is why I was a practising Muslim. I thought Islam means peace and that there is no compulsion in religion because that is what the Quran says. Little did I know that those peaceful verses were later abrogated by the harsh and deadly ones which ordered the Muslims to kill the non Muslims wherever they found them. I had no idea whatsoever that Islam encouraged adultery, that is, men can have sex with slave women and also they can beat up their wives. There was a hell of a lot which I did not know, hence I was proud being a Muslim. It is all thanks to Ali Sina and his website and then his book that I found out the truth about Islam and its founder, the self proclaimed prophet Mohammed. Then I read Robert Spencer’s book “The Truth about Mohammed,” which further made me decision firmer to leave Islam.

Now for the last one year exactly, I have been an apostate of Islam, which means no praying, no fasting, no quran recition (which by the way was so dead boring), no zakat, no nothing. I could not have been happier, but then there was something missing for which I was a bit sad, since I could not exactly pin point what it was till I met John and he showed me the path that leads to Christ. Ever since I have accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and saviour, I could not have asked for more. I am in total bliss since April this year and I owe it all to my John; not only did he show me the right path, but he has promised to hold my hand for as long as we both live. He has been extremely loving and supportive and even faced the wrath of my family with his unfaltering love and faith in me and in our relationship.

I would request all of you to go back and read some of my old articles in which I have mentioned about the hateful verses of the Quran which condemn the Jews and Christians, and how it commands the Muslims to either kill them or enslave them.

Islam is a hateful religion, sorry, I mean a cult which was created by a psychopath for his own benefit, and I am sure he never himself believed that it would survive for so many centuries.

I would request all Muslims to please wake up and see what you are doing. You are worshipping the devil himself. Mohammed was nothing but anti Christ himself and so was Hitler. There were so many similarities between the two, in fact Quran is quite a bit like Mein Kampf. Gosh, I just hope they are both burning in hell side by side… Amen.

33 comments:

caged one I had commented on your previous post,I've explained the verses that you said "encouraged muslims to kill non-muslims" and I've mentioned some verses from the bible that ENCOURAGE CHRISTIANS TO KILL NON-CHRISTIANSread back my previous comments .forcing you to stay a muslim is like compelling a non-muslim to convert to islam ,that's why I tell you:"no compulsion in islam" ,you are free to chose your religion",you don't have to offend islam or "PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH)", just do your thing and let the others do thier things,don't compelle muslims to be christians.

-DID ISLAM LOSE "caged one"?lol,here is the answer:

Today there are more than 4200 religions in the world! The statistics say that Islam is the fastest spreading among all religions in the world! In 1999, the number of Muslims in the world was 1200 million Muslims. But now Islam is spreading in all continents of the world, as the number of Muslims in 1997 in the six continents was: 780 million in Asia, 308 million in Africa, 32 million in Europe, 7 million in America and 385 thousand in Australia.

In 1900, the number of Muslims all over the world was less than half the number of Christians but in 2025, the number of Muslims will become greater than the number of Christians because of the significant growth of Islamic religion. And this is the highest rate of growth in the world!

The Prophet peace be upon him says: (The Islam will spread in all places that have day and night).-Go to hell caged one! Believe me you are the one who is going to burn in hell,and I think at the end of the plot you'll suicide,you know why?Because leaving islam will turn your life into hell, you won't find happiness, you'll wish to die . And by the way ,I don't blame skouti for what he did ,you are the one who's insulting "THE PROPHET,THE TRUTHFUL,THE HONEST_the most influential man_ MUHAMMAD (PBUH)" have you known shame!?

You may say so but Islam does not. A Muslim who leaves Islam has to be killed according to the Quran and this is confirmed by the words and deeds of Muhammad. And it is written in the Quran 4:80 "Whosoever obeys the Messenger, .. obeys God;.."

4:86 "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; THEN, IF THEY TURN THEIR BACKS [in other words leave Islam], take them, and SLAY THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

Sahih Hadiths:

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " There is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" upon finding out that he could suggest grammatical changes. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).

Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed."

@Richard! Ok,relax, I get what you're saying ,that makes sense to me ;pIt's funny how people who don't believe in islam study it and try to find something wrong in it! Anyway... (part1):This is not something that we're going to debate about,you brought what you have now let me give you some of what I have : In ISLAM we have to tell the truth,(and I will say the truth no matter what),because the "PROPHET MUHAMMAD" told us that liar is not a believer.****(and I don't wanna go to hell!)****"QURAN"doesn't tell us to go out and take innocent lives,there's a vers in the "QURAN" that says the opposite:

"On that account We ordained for the Children of Isra`il that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole humanity and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole humanity. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear (guidance), yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land". (5:32)

"ISLAM" means: surrender, submission, obedience, sincerity and peace between God and His Creatures (us); to do "God's Will on earth, as it is in Heaven".(Reference: www.WhatsIslam.com)

Now be sure you understand the difference between "Islam" and "Muslims", meaning: "Islam" is perfect, but we as humans (Muslims) are not. Therefore, we can and do make mistakes.So you can find good muslims and you can find bad ones.

judges and scholars over the centuries have held different opinions and given various rulings based on all what you've mentioned above.

No one can make a blanket statement and say the same rule applies to all people in all situations.Let us review some of the evidences starting at the time of our prophet, peace be upon him.

Even during the time of our prophet, peace be upon him, there were some who "left Islam" and then they were allowed to come back if they wanted to or stay away if they so desired.

One example is from the Muslims who migrated in the first migration to Ethiopia and one of them left Islam, became a Christian (the people of Abyssinia were Christians at that time) and then he even told people there he was an "author" of the Quran.

Of course such actions are most despicable and worthy of some kind of reprimand, especially considering the extent of the lies against the Quran and the prophet, peace be upon him.

Yet, nothing was done to this man by the Muslims. His wife, could not tolerate his lies and his turning his back against the truth of Islam and she returned back to the Muslims in Arabia.

After the man died the Christians attempted to bury him, but the next day they found his body out of the grave and laying on the ground. Considering the Muslims must have done this act, they moved him to another area and buried him there.

Again, the next day they found his body out of the grave and on top of the ground.

So, they took him far from there and made another grave and buried him in it. But again, the next day his body was out of the grave and laying on the ground. At this point they decided the ground would not accept his body and they left it for the wild animals.

We learn from this example Allah will be the One to finally deal with these people and He may even do so in this world as well as on the Day of Judgment.

Other examples include those who entered Islam in the presence of our beloved prophet, peace be upon him, yet when they were returned back to their people (during an agreement between the pagans and Muhammad, peace be upon him) some of them reverted back to their old pagan religion.

Some of these people did come back to Islam again later on after Islam came to be the governing state. In this case we observe what can happen in the case of the one who is in Islam and then for whatever reason decides not to stay.

Yet another example that occurred at the time of our blessed prophet, peace be upon him, was that of some who pretended they wanted to be Muslims.

But they only pretended to entere Islam to take advantage of the believers, get some worldly benefits and then abused and slaughtered an entire group of shepherds that memorized the entire Quran, who were caring for them.

They killed them in cold blood and took everything for themselves. The prophet, peace be upon him, was very disturbed over this and ordered them to be severely punished and left to die without any food or water.

From this example we learn how to deal with traitors and terrorists who have no intention of doing anything except evil and spreading fitnah (evil and terror) throughout the land.

Over the centuries since the inception of Islam, we can find cases of people leaving Islam and what was their example and what the pervailing jurists decided in their particular situation.

Most all of these were not punished except in the cases of treason, other acts of viloence or for propagating corruption, dissention and promoting evil along with their apostasy. Those who were found to be causing sedition or of being enemy spies during times of war or advocating the overthrow of Islamic government could understandably be courtmartialed and executed.

...NOW! let us breifly compare the treatment of conversion and apostasy with other civilizations and societies over the centuries.

The Roman civilization would not tolerate someone who accepted the benefits of citizenship and the turned against the government.

These people were made short work of as entertainment for the people, while gladiators tortured and killed them for public sport. (see: Encyclopedia Britanitca; Rome).

It may benefit us to take into consideration Judaism and Christianity to better understand the difference between what is being taught as the religion and what some people do. The Book of Genesis in the Torah (Old Testament) tells of an incident referred to by Scholars such as Rabbi Allison Bergman Vann, as the "Rape of Dinah."

It is easy to conclude the offer of circumcizing and coming to their religion was only a trick to defeat the men while they were in such pain and suffering (keep in mind, in those days there were no clinics or even sterile conditions for such operations).

Another reference to "conversion and apostasy" regarding Jews during the years after Jesus, peace be upon him, occurred in the south of Arabia in Yemen. Yusuf Dhu Nawas, a Jewish leader in Yemen, attacked the Christians of Najran ordering them to embrace Judaism or be burned in a pit of fire. Estimates put the number of those killed between 20,000 and 40,000.

The Catholic Church at one time forced people to enter into their religion at the point of the sword and with torture chambers (see: Crusades, 1095 to 1200 A.D.; and Inquisition, 1492 to 1520 A.D.)

Those who wished to remain or change to Islam or Judaism or even another form of Christianity were put to the most vile of tortures and even executed. However, this cannot be said to ,in any way, represent the teachings of Jesus or the New Testament.

the punishment which was imposed upon the calf worshipers was severe: death. And (remember) when Moses said,in the QURAN, to his people: "0 my people! Verily, you have wronged yourselves by worshipping the calf. So turn in repentance to your Creator and kill yourselves (the innocent kill the wrong-doers among you), that will be better for you in the Sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance. Truly, He is the One Who accpets repentance, the Most Merciful. Surah 2: 54Therefore, the crime of worshipping the calf did not pass unpunished. Moses commanded the elite of the children of Israel to pray to Allah for forgiveness and demonstrate their repentance. He chose seventy men out of them and ordered them: "Rush towards Allah and repent for what you did and ask His forgiveness for what you left."

tarekg I simply dont have time to reply to your long winded and mostly irrelevant replies, but I'll take up a few points.

I have clearly shown (quoted) that the Quran and Hadiths call for apostates to be killed.

"Now be sure you understand the difference between "Islam" and "Muslims", meaning: "Islam" is perfect, but we as humans (Muslims) are not."

Islam is far from "perfect". How can a religion be perfect that calls for non-believers to be killed, subjugated and treated as second-class citizens. That treats women as less than men and the possessions of men, calls for apostates, "blasphemers", gays to be killed?

How can a religion be perfect when its followers cant agree on its "perfect" and "clear" message and hence declare each other apostates and kill each other?

And as for not judging Islam by its followers, how else are we to judge it? Jesus said you judge a tree by its fruit, and the fruit of Islam has been deadly and bitter.

You have quoted verse 5:32, which says 1. God decreed to THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL [that is JEWS] that action2. Even here there is leeway unless for murder OR FOR CORRUPTION DONE IN THE LAND - which can be anything whatsoever.

Then you omitted the very next verse which says: "..the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,"

Again 'waging war against Allah and His Messenger' is simply refusing to convert to Islam or to live as second class citizens and pay Jizya and again the vague "causing corruption" which gives a very wide permission to kill.

I'm not interested in your comparisons with Christianity. All I know is the moral teachings of Jesus are immeasurably superior to those of Muhammad's which are immoral.

There is little chance you will go to that Islamic Hell, because like your Islamic paradise it is a fabrication, meant to frighten you into submission like the bogey man.

Study Islam with an open mind. It wont take you long to realise that the Quran is full of errors and the work of Muhammad rather than any fictitious Allah.

Start off from here: the Quran says that the Sun is a small object in the skies which revolves around a flat Earth and sets in it for the night, in a muddy spring.

"And a sign for them is THE NIGHT; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And the sun -- IT RUNS TO A FIXED RESTING-PLACE; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing." 36:37-38 (The sun rests for the night at a fixed resting place according to the Quran)

Then it says in the Quran that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:

"....Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached THE SETTING PLACE OF THE SUN, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people."

This is confirmed and clarified in no less than 4 Sahih Hadiths.

Bukhari 6.326: ..The Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and prostrates underneath (Allah's) Throne; and that is Allah's Statement:-- 'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (decreed). And that is the decree of All-Mighty, the All-Knowing....' (36.38)

Muslim 1:297 “..the Messenger of Allah ..one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. ..”

(This clearly shows that the Quran/ Muhammad believed that the Sun goes around a stationary fixed Earth. It also solves the problem - argued by Muslims - of how it rises from a different place where it sets in the Muddy spring - it "glides" to its "rising place" after being given permission by Allah, due no doubt to its "prostration")

Muslim 1:299, “..When the sun disappeared (from the sight) he said: O Abu Dharr! Do you know where it goes? He (the narrator) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) said. Verily it goes and begs permission, for prostration (to Allah) and the permission is granted to it. Once it would be said: Return to the place whence you came, and then it would rise from its setting place…”

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

Keep an open mind. Free yourself from hate and get liberated from this vile ideology.

@Richard (part1):If you don't read the bible,here is what the bible(or Jesus)says about apostates :

1_They are without God."Whosoever ... abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." -- 2 John 92_They are all antichrists."For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." -- 2 John 7They should be shunned. Neither marry nor be friends with them."Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." -- 2 Cor.6:14-173_They should be killed."If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10 Now isn't christianity calling for killing apostates!? study your bible then study the quran! judge yourself before you judge others for doing something you yourself do!THE SECOND PART IS MORE INTERRESTING! ;p

You seem to be desperate to convince me that Christianity calls for the killing of apostates, despite all Jesus' teachings of non-violence, and that Islam doesn't.

Thus Christians are misunderstanding their religion and not killing their apostates (how evil of them), whereas Muslims are misunderstanding their religion of peace, Islam, and killing theirs.

How do the Muslims read those passages of the Quran and Hadiths so wrong I wonder?

After all these are the alleged direct words of the maker of the Universe, but he seems to have a communication problem.

As I said by their fruit ye shall judge them.

I am satisfied if, for whatever reason, even if they are misunderstanding their religion, Christians do not kill apostates, those that blaspheme against their religion, those that do not believe in their religion, idolaters, homosexuals etc.

And guess what!I wouldn't judge the tree(the bible)by its fuit(christians like you),now I think there are alot of trees (bibles) ,how many are there? the tue bible was modified by its fruits(ppl like you)! but why didn't they add some scientific facts to make it a miraculous holly book?like some facts about astronomy! I guess they couldn't' at that time!how could "MUHAMMAD"(pbuh) do that !?....."PROPHET MIHAMMAD" didn't write that book by his own ...he recieved it from god "ALLAH" the all mighty...QURAAN is the truth the preserved book that contains alot of miracles tahat makes scientists go "wow!" again! look fo QURA'AN and science .

"Until when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting as if in a pool of murky water, and near it he found a people. WE said, `O Dhu'l Qarnain, you may punish them, or treat them with kindness.' (Al- Quran chapter 18 verse 86)

Here ,I think you meant to say that it is scientifically proven that the sun does not go down in a muddy spring.

Response :

Are you not aware of the fact that the words "the place were the sunset"; signify the westernmost parts of Cyrus' Empire or the north-western boundary of Asia Minor and refer to the Black Sea becasue it formed the north-western boundary of the Empire of Cyrus ? The verse refers to the expedetion which Cyrus undertook agaist his enemies in the West.

Unfortunately, that is not what this verse says! Read it again:

Sura 18:86

Yusuf Ali: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

Pickthall: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

This verse says that Dhu'l Qurnain reached the place where the sun set. It DOES NOT say that he saw the sun set. In other words, the word "place" indicates a geographical location. The Qur'an does not say the he saw it set in a muddy spring, it says that he "found" it setting in a muddy spring. The term "found" (wagada), and its variants, are found 107 times in the Qur'an and this term never refers to the act of "seeing". To "see" the sun set, or rise, requires that we use the word "ra'a". For example, Sura 6:78 tells us :

"When he [Abraham] saw (ra'a) the sun rising, he said, "This is my Lord". But when it set he said, ..."

18:86 "This verse says that Dhu'l Qurnain reached the place where the sun set. It DOES NOT say that he saw the sun set. In other words, the word "place" indicates a geographical location. The Qur'an does not say the he saw it set in a muddy spring, it says that he "found" it setting in a muddy spring. The term "found" (wagada), and its variants, are found 107 times in the Qur'an and this term never refers to the act of "seeing". To "see" the sun set, or rise, requires that we use the word "ra'a".

What?! There is a geographical place where the Sun sets and this Dhu'l Qurnain reached that place, but he did not "see" it setting in that place he only "found" it setting there, in a muddy spring.

I would have imagined that finding is much more positive that seeing. Like I saw a pot of gold buried under a tree or I found a pot of gold buried under a tree.

However Allah knows best. If Allah tells us that it sets in a muddy spring then it must set in a muddy spring.

Or is it that science knows best and Allah's word must be reinterpreted, no matter how torturously or unconvincingly to conform with science?

Dhu al-Qarnaiyn [Zul Qarnain] "witnessed the setting of the sun in its resting place into a pool of black and foetid slime." al-Tabari vol.5 p.173-174 (See Sura 18:82-97)

al-Tabari vol.1 p.234 also mentions that the sun sets in a muddy spring. The word "muddy" is hami’ah, meaning mean black clay, but hamiyah is a similar word that can mean hot. (See footnote 442 p.234)

"He [Mohammed] continued. When the sun rises, it rises upon its chariot from one of those springs accompanied by 360 angels…. When God wishes to test the sun and the moon, showing His servants a sign and thereby asking them to stop disobeying Him and to start to obey, the sun tumbles from the chariot and falls into the deep of that ocean, which is the sphere. When God wants to increase the significance of the sign and frighten His servants severely, all of the sun falls, and nothing of it remains upon the chariot. That is a total eclipse of the sun, when the day darkens and the stars come out." al-Tabari vol.1 p.236

Zul-Karnain in Sura 18 and the Science of Astronomy

Sura 18:85-86 "One (such) way he [Zul-qarnain] followed, until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a people: We [Allah] said: ‘O Zul-qarnain! (Thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." "Murky" has also been translated as "muddy" and "black". "spring of … water" has also been translated as "spring". M.H. Skahir translates this as "black sea".

Sura 18:89-90 "Then followed he [Zul-qarnain] (another) way, until when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun."

Muslim commentators differ on exactly who Zul-qarnain (man of two horns) is. Some think Alexander the Great, some think Cyrus of Persia, and some a Yemeni king. It does not matter though. Regardless, Zul-qarnain was able to travel to where the sun actually rose. This supports a flat earth cosmology in the Qur’an. More significantly, he traveled to where the sun set, and found that it set in a muddy/murky spring.

If you ask astronomers if the sun sets in a muddy spring, they will tell you "no".

The Qur’an teaches the following:

The earth is flat, spread out like a carpet and pegged flat by mountains

The sun has a defined path through the day, then sets in a muddy/murky spring and goes to Allah’s throne.

The sun then rises at a specific spot

Except for five "retrograde stars" (planets), the stars are hung like lamps.

Mohammed taught early Muslims this as a literal truth, not just a metaphor or simile.

The earth is flat, spread out like a carpet and pegged flat by mountains

The sun has a defined path through the day, then sets in a muddy/murky spring and goes to Allah’s throne.

The sun then rises at a specific spot."

@tarekg "If you ask astronomers if the sun sets in a muddy spring, they will tell you "no"."

Quite right. In fact not only astronomers will tell you that but any western schoolboy who has science in their curriculum, and most others even if they haven't.

This is just wide-spread general knowledge, known by almost all educated people.

The Earth is not flat, it is in fact nearly perfectly spherical. It only appears flat because we see so small a portion of the surface of that sphere.

The Sun does not move around the Earth, it only appears to, due to the rotation of the Earth about its axis. And it only appears to set on the Earth, which is an optical illusion.

The belief that were 7 domed "heaven's" above a flat Earth was a Babylonian belief which Muhammad also adopted and believed in.

I need not go further in any argument as to who Zul-qarnain was and all the other irrelevant information you have brought up.

If we agree that the Quran supports a flat earth cosmology and according to the Quran and the Hadiths the Sun sets in a muddy/murky spring, this is sufficient to my case.

This idea in the Quran is primitive and wrong. It cannot possibly be from an all-knowing, wise being who allegedly created the Universe.

Even in Muhammad's time the Greeks and the Eastern Roman Empire were well aware that the Earth was spherical and that the sun did not set on the Earth. They had accurately calculated the size of the Earth. The only mistake most (but not all) western scientists made till the time of the Renaissance was that the Sun moved around the Earth rather than the other way round.

Thus it is proved that the claim that the Quran is the direct word of God is false.

The corollary to this is that Muhammad was a liar and a charlatan, totally unworthy of being followed by anyone.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir: (Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun,) means, he followed a route until he reached the furthest point that could be reached in the direction of the sun's setting, which is the west of the earth. As for the idea of his reaching the place in the sky where the sun sets, this is something impossible, and the tales told by storytellers that he traveled so far to the west that the sun set behind him are not true at all. Most of these stories come from the myths of the People of the Book and the fabrications and lies of their heretics.

The Source: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2704&Itemid=73

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia : West is the direction opposite that of the Earth's rotation on its axis, and is therefore the general direction towards which the Sun sets.

The Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West

The Bible - Judges 19:14 And they passed on and went their way; and the sun went down upon them when they were by Gibeah, which belongeth to Benjamin.

The Bible - Deuteronomy 11:30 Are they not on the other side Jordan, by the way where the sun goeth down, in the land of the Canaanites, which dwell in the champaign over against Gilgal, beside the plains of Moreh?

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The Noble Qur'an - al-Kahf 18:86 - Muhammad Asad : [And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun, it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea; and nearby he found a people [given to every kind of wrongdoing]. We said: "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause [them] to suffer or treat them with kindness!"

Muhammad Asad - The Message of The Qur'an:

Note 85 (Quran Ref: 18:86 )

Or: "abundance of water" - which, according to many philologists (cf. Taj al-'Arus), is one of the meanings of `ayn (primarily denoting a "spring"). As for my rendering of the phrase "he found it (wajadaha) setting...", etc., as "it appeared to him that it was setting", see Razi and Ibn Kathir, both of whom point out that we have here a metaphor based on the common optical illusion of the sun's "disappearing into the sea"; and Razi explains this, correctly, by the fact that the earth is spherical. (It is interesting to note that, according to him, this explanation was already advanced in the - now lost - Qur'an -commentary of Abu `Ali al-Jubba’i, the famous Mu'tazili scholar who died in 303 H., which corresponds to 915 or 916 of the Christian era.)(Quran Ref: 18:86 )

The Source: http://www.islamicity.com/quransearch/shownote.asp?chap=18&note=85

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir: (he found it setting in a spring of Hami'ah) meaning, he saw the sun as if it were setting in the ocean. This is something which everyone who goes to the coast can see: it looks as if the sun is setting into the sea but in fact it never leaves its path in which it is fixed. Hami'ah is, according to one of the two views, derived from the word Hama'ah, which means mud. This is like the Ayah:

The Source: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2704&Itemid=73

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - And they passed on, and went their way,.... Proceeded on in their journey from Jebus or Jerusalem, near to which they were:

and the sun went down upon them when they were by Gibeah, which belongeth to Benjamin; which is added, to distinguish it from another Gibeah in the tribe of Judah, Joshua 15:57 when they were come pretty near to this place, on the side of it, as it seems, the sun was just setting, which determined them to take up their lodging here, as follows.

The Source: http://bible.cc/judges/19-14.htm

The Sun in The Noble Quran:

The Noble Qur'an - Surat Al-'Anbya' (The Prophets) 21:33 : And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.

Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas: (And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon) He made the sun and the moon subservient. (They float, each in an orbit) each one of them rotate around its orbit.

The Source: http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=21&tAyahNo=33&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&Language­Id=2

The Noble Qur'an - Surat Ya-Sin (Ya Sin) 36:40 : It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

tarekg, Islam teaches you submission, subservience. But you needn't subordinate your thought processes to anyone else's thinking. Specially if the the person's thinking is misleading and deceitful.

A Tafsir is just a comment or opinion on what the verse is saying.

al-Jalalayn on commenting on the verse 18:86 says "..its setting in a spring is [described as seen] from the perspective of the eye, for otherwise it is far larger [in size] than this world;.."

In plain English he/they/the Tafsir says - The Sun is much bigger than the world, so the setting of the Sun in a spring as described is only an apparent setting and not an actual setting.

Now the author(s), who lived several centuries after Muhammad, are interjecting into the interpretation of the verse a knowledge they assume the Quran has.

In other words they assume the Quran is true, therefore the Quran could not possibly be saying what it seems to be saying and hence this is what it is apparently saying.

They do not even consider the alternative, that the Quran does say the Sun sets in a muddy spring and hence the Quran obviously cannot be from God.

But does the Quran say the Sun sets in a geographical location on Earth which is a muddy spring?

Of course it does.

The apparent setting of the Sun in the horizon is an everyday phenomenon that can be seen by everyone every day. There is nothing unusual about it.

However the Quran talks about a very particular location - the "setting place" of the Sun.

Just like the end of a rainbow, the setting place of the Sun seems to the naked eye a place you can reach, if you travel far enough in that direction. And that is exactly what the Quran describes this fellow Dhool Karnain did.

".. he followed a way UNTIL, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and he found nearby a people..."

And what does the Sun do when it sets into a muddy spring?

According to the Quran it rests for the night. "And a sign for them is the night; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; .." 36:37,38

Narrated Abu Dharr:The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ?And the sun runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.'" (36.38) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:

Where does this hadith say anything about the sun stopping as a whole? Basically where does this hadith say that the sun completely stops its full normal course?

Did you ASSUME that just because the sun asks for permission to rise again in a dark area means that it has stopped giving light in other areas! For instance it will be night time in London, yet still day time in LA, the sun will be giving its light for LA while at the same time it will be asking for permission to re-rise again in the city of London! Very simple! The error Shamoun claims is non-existent but only a result of his own false assumptions.

Secondly here is a hadith that completely lifts the fog and proves my case:

Ibn 'Abbas (A.S.) narrated that the Prophet (PBUH) was asked:

"Where does the sun set, and where does it rise from? The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) answered, "It is going in a (nonstop) regular motion; it does not cease or disappear. It sets in one place and rises in another, and sets in another place and rises elsewhere and so on. So, some people would say the sun has set and others would say it has just risen (at the same moment)." (http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/main.php?id=32)

"Where does this hadith say anything about the sun stopping as a whole?"

It doesnt, but if you notice it refers to the Quran 36:38, and the the Quran verses 36:37-38, which I have quoted, says so:

"And a sign for them is THE NIGHT; We strip it of the day and lo, they are in darkness. And the sun -- IT RUNS TO A FIXED RESTING-PLACE; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing."

You have not addressed this at all.

Clearly the Quran is talking about the fixed resting place for the night (which happens to be a muddy spring) 18:86.

And I have quoted 3 other Sahih Hadiths confirming the same thing, which you have completely ignored.

Instead you come out with this:

"here is a hadith that completely lifts the fog and proves my case:

Ibn 'Abbas (A.S.) narrated that the Prophet (PBUH) was asked:

"Where does the sun set, and where does it rise from? The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) answered, "It is going in a (nonstop) regular motion; it does not cease or disappear. It sets in one place and rises in another, and sets in another place and rises elsewhere and so on. So, some people would say the sun has set and others would say it has just risen (at the same moment)." "

This just stinks of fabrication. Seems to be a 21st Century Hadith. Can you give some reference to it in the Sahih Hadiths, aside from a link to one "Dr." Zaghloul El-Naggar?

PPS "Where does this hadith say anything about the sun stopping as a whole?"

Actually THIS Hadith (AND THE OTHER HADITHS) do say precisely that:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (AT THE TIME OF SUNSET)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) TILL IT PROSTRATES ITSELF UNDERNEATH THE THRONE and TAKES PERMISSION TO RISE AGAIN,..."

When you "prostrate" yourself, you lie face down in as in submission or adoration. When Muslims prostrate themselves while praying that's roughly what they do. You stay still.

Have you ever seen or can you ever imagine a crowd of Muslims with their faces touching the ground, bent towards Mecca and their posteriors lifted up, moving along at the pace of a steady jog, had they been jogging prior to prostrating themselves?

That Muhammad was talking about the daily action of sun setting and rising is obvious from the 4 Sahih Hadiths, because he clearly talks about just this.

("Do you know where the sun goes (AT THE TIME OF SUNSET)?" ... AND

Muslim 1:297

Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate AND REMAINS THERE until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and REMAINS IN THAT STATE until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches ITA RESTING PLACE under the Throne. ..”

And of course Sunan Abu Dawud 3991 where Muhammad confirms that the sun sets in a spring of warm water.

Where would you go to find the correct meaning of the Qur’an? Zamakhshari? al-Tabari? Baidawi? If you were an early Muslim, you would just go to Mohammed himself! Here what Mohammed explained, according to both Bukhari and al-Tabari.

"Narrated Abu Dhar : The Prophet asked me at sunset, ‘Do you know where the sun goes (at the

time of sunset)?’ I replied, ‘Allah and His Apostle know better.’ He said, ‘It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates itself underneath the Throne, and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and them ( a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted,…’" Bukhari vol.4 book 54 ch.4 no.441 p.283. Sahih Muslim vol.1 book 1 ch.73 no.297-300 p.95-96 also has a lot of detail on this conversation with Mohammed and Abu Dharr.

Another translation of the same passage of al-Bukhari says:"Abzur Ghifari (ra) narrated: one day Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) asked me, ‘Abzar do you know after setting where does Sun go?’ I replied, ‘I do not know, only Allah’\’s apostle can say better.’ Then Prophet (SA) replied, ‘After setting, the sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh (Allah’s throne) and waits for Allah’s command for rising again in the East. Day will come when sun will not get any more permission from Allah to rise again and Qeyamot (dooms day) will fall upon earth’". al-Tabari vol.1 p.231 says, "I asked the Messenger of God [Mohammed] ‘Where does it [the sun] set?’ He replied: ‘It sets in the heaven and is then raised from heaven to heaven until it is raised to the highest, seventh heaven. Eventually, when it is underneath the Throne, it falls down and prostrates itself, and the angels who are in charge of it prostrate themselves together with it. The sun then says, My Lord, whence do you command me to rise, from where I set or from where I rise?’ He continued. This is (meant by) God’s word: ‘And the sun: It runs to a place where it is to reside (at night)’ where it is held underneath the Throne – ‘That is decreed by One Mighty and Knowing’ by ‘this’ is meant the procedure of the mighty’ Lord in His royal authority, the Lord Who is ‘knowing’ about His creation. He continued. Gabriel brings to the sun a garment of luminosity from the light of the Throne, according to the measure of the hours of the day. It is longer in the summer and shorter in the winter, and of intermediate length in the autumn and spring. [spring, fall, and winter fashions!] He continued. The sun puts on that garment, as one of you here puts on his garment. Then, it is set free to roam in the air of heaven until it rises whence it does. … The same course is followed by the moon in its rising … But Gabriel brings it a garment from the light of the Footstool. This is (meant by) God word ‘He made the sun a luminosity and the moon a light.’"

The sun and moon are signs of Allah. Abu Dawud vol.1 book 2 no.1173 p.304;

@ tarekg "Where would you go to find the correct meaning of the Qur’an? ..you would just go to Mohammed himself!"

Quite right, (if Muhammad actually commented on that verse).

And on the verses concerning the setting place of the Sun, 18:86 we have Muhammad's own words:

"I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: IT SETS IN A SPRING OF WARM WATER."" Sunan Abudawood 3991

"Well, I will say it once again, that I live in a fucking Islamic country, and Robert Spencer himself advised me not to post on my blog myself"

hehehehe, do y'all think i am getting under jihad booby spencer's skin just a lil bit ? yup certainly looks that way......as soon as i raise a point, spencer has to respond.......brilliant!!!! :)

oh man this is truly hilarious........the fcukin FAKE MURTARD is way tooooo stoopid to post replies on her own blog.......how convienient that the fake blogger sends her bullshit over to spencer.....yes that is totally believable. after all they way she pens her bollocks is just the same as spencer vomits his hatred of islam.

it certailny has been an absolute pleasure in fcukin up spencer's blog...........its really has but alas i cannot take all the credit as spencer must take a bow too for being a total fuckwit in this regard. i mean you would think he would have thought this out a bit better otherwise he wouldn't have lost his own supporters too eh bobby, LOL

anyone else noticed how even more unhinged the fake blogger has become since leaving islam. Wow, must be the effect of being a born again christian huh........shame

There is nothing fake about Liberated. Recognising and leaving a hateful ideology and the trauma of having your family cut you off cannot but have an effect on a person.

When a person’s life is in danger simply for leaving Islam, the religious freedom claimed by Islam is a sham.

Ibn Warraq talks about the people who leave Islam - who are they? No unified profile emerges.

"some are young (students in their teens), some are middle-aged with children; some are scientists, while others are economists, businesspeople, or journalists; some are from Bangladesh, others from Pakistan, India, Morocco, Egypt, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, or Iran.

Our witnesses, nonetheless, do have certain moral and intellectual qualities in common: for instance, they are all comparatively well educated, computer literate with access to the Internet, and rational, with the ability to think for themselves."

So Liberated be strong. We wish you well. The only fake thing is the "prophet" Muhammad and the fake, but murderous ideology he has spawned.

For people like skouti a "hate site" is any site that politely and rationally discusses and exposes the weaknesses and lies of Islam.

This causes him to hate the site.

Criticism of Islam generates hate amongst its followers against those that criticize it. This is drummed into its followers from birth.

On the other hand a site which promotes Islam, an ideology which preaches hate against non-believers etc are of course not hate sites.