At Toronto Raptors March 13th, 7:00 PM

I really don't want to get into a debate with you, but your comment was just so obviously open ended, I couldn't let it go. First the standard was choking, and Sheed locking him down. Well, DHo fits that to the T. In fact, Bosh plays a more normal game against Sheed compared to how much DHo is absolutely taken out of his game.

Then, you indicate that DHo plays defense. Well, DHo plays center and usually has the easiest matchup on defense every night. Kendrick Perkins and Big Z aren't exactly NBA legends of the game. Certainly a far cry from Patrick Ewing and Brad Daugherty.

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Which i responded to. Dwight Howard's size alone makes him worth the risk in terms of his fragile mental state. Whether you believe Dwight has it "easy" or not; he is still more effective than Bosh and far more worthy of being a max player.

I dunno. He shoots 49% from the floor as a big man jumpshooter, nearly 80% from the stripe, he puts up 22 + 9, and he's a capable screen and roll or pick and pop player. Dwight operates in a phone booth, which is why he is so easy to defend if you can stand your ground against him.

People cry about Amir Johnson not getting playing time, and then saying they can't see what is so special about Chris Bosh. Which makes sense, because at one time, there were people who told me that Darko would prove it was a mistake to take LBJ at #1 overall.

Is Bosh a superb defender? hell no. Neither is Lamarcus Aldridge. I would trade Max, Kwame and Amir, maybe AA too for either of those guys. 20+10 big men don't grow on trees.

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YVMV. If we're going to max someone out, i prefer it to actually be someone who is a "franchise player" and is effective on both sides of the floor. LBJ is not a bad defender, Kobe isn't, Duncan isn't Pierce isn't, KG isn't, Wade isn't, those are all players worth the max. Bosh is putting up these numbers and his team sucks. Kaman put up similar numbers and he's not worth that type of money either. There's 20/10 and then there's 20/10 that affects/can take over a game.

You're comparing cagey veteran big men with more than 10 seasons in the league, to a guy at the beginning of his career. It's like asking if 34 year old Rasheed could shut down 24 year old Dice, or if 33 year old Dice could shut down himself at age 24 (based on the Nuggets 18-34 strike season, I would take a chance on YES).

Bottom line, it's not mental toughness. Sheed and Dice are still in the game because they know how to play, and have built up a ton of experience on multiple teams, under multiple coaches. Mutumbo and Dale Davis didn't play as late into their careers because they had a nice FT %.

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It absolutely is. Aldridge has no problem owning Sheed and neither do other young bigs. Bosh's problem runs far deeper than just facing a "cagey" veteran. He choked in the NJ series as well. And i don't think anyone's about to wax poetic about NJ's big men. Like mentioned, he didn't even try to really post up tonight. In fact his bricking was responsible for our 3rd quarter lead. It's also a little scary how a second year players (LMA's) post game is comparable to his at this stage.

If we're going to pay Amir $3 million a year, Max $5 million a year, and Kwame $4 million a year, or even entertaining Carlos the rat Boozer, then I cannot fathom how Bosh is overrated.

Man, you'd think Buddhatrain was Bruce Bowen with this crowd...

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Bosh doesn't deserve the max. It's my opinion. I don't believe Boozer deserves it either. If we're not getting a "superstar", then i'd rather we go for quality than just another big name. I don't mind Bosh as much as i mind his price tag. If someone wants to go out and give him 100 mil, go for it. I just hope it isn't us.

People cry about Amir Johnson not getting playing time, and then saying they can't see what is so special about Chris Bosh. Which makes sense, because at one time, there were people who told me that Darko would prove it was a mistake to take LBJ at #1 overall.

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I'm not ready to concede this point yet.

These other guys aren't whooping on Bosh by being cagey, they're overpowering and overwhelming him. I would include Howard in this also though. Don't come into the superstar club if you can't afford the cover.

The Raptors do play better defense, hold their opponent to a lower eFG%, and rebound better without Bosh on the floor, but their scoring suffers dramatically.

Bosh is an offensive weapon and a PF, which probably explains this effect a bit. Toronto has him playing twice as much at the C as at the PF, mainly because they have no other options. O'Neal didn't work out so great and Bargnani is Sheed minus all defensive desire and ability.

Which i responded to. Dwight Howard's size alone makes him worth the risk in terms of his fragile mental state.

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Dwight's entire game is based on physical dominance. Bosh has built out his body heaps, but he has a finesse game. He doesn't have to worry about someone bigger coming along and outmuscling him. The only reason Shaq was dominant so long, is that he was the bigger MFer in the NBA for a decade. Howard won't be so lucky. He's not that big, and next year, or 4 years from now, someone will come into the league and treat him like a little brother the way Sheed does, but with power, not finesse.

YVMV. If we're going to max someone out, i prefer it to actually be someone who is a "franchise player" and is effective on both sides of the floor.

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We're not going to max anyone out. If someone comes to Detroit, it's because Joe will convince that player it is in their best interest. The NBA is facing a major contraction. The money is going to dry up. Guys on mid-level deals will prevent the big players from getting paid, and teams will bring in cheap talent to balance out their lineups.

It absolutely is. Aldridge has no problem owning Sheed and neither do other young bigs. Bosh's problem runs far deeper than just facing a "cagey" veteran. He choked in the NJ series as well. And i don't think anyone's about to wax poetic about NJ's big men. Like mentioned, he didn't even try to really post up tonight.

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At 24, Sheed wasn't even a regular starter.

Do you even realize how few NBA PFs post up anymore? Guys are more likely to be Dirk Nowitzki then Shaquille O'Neal. Even Yao Ming is more Dirk than Shaq. That's how the league is. The post up argument is so played out. Bob Lanier is retired!

Amir Johnson didn't deserve $3 million, but Joe took a chance and paid him, hoping the production would come.

With Bosh, we already know we get a 20+9 guy going into his prime. You're paying more, but you know you are getting more. The days of big man by committee are coming to an end. I don't think Dice and Sheed will be back next year, at least one if not both will be gone, and no one in their right mind is going to field an Amir/Max + Kwame lineup.

Personally, I don't care. I just can't stand talent evaluations that cut one way, but no one wants to acknowledge they cut the other way. Dice is too old, except when he outplays all 3 of our guys under age 25. Walt is no good, but somehow he does just enough that we don't lose games. Sheed is a bum for not going in the post, but he's our best lockdown defender.

When Sheed retires, Dwight Howard will send him a dozen roses. Then he will go back to feasting on the Joakim Noahs and Kendrick Perkins of the NBA.

These other guys aren't whooping on Bosh by being cagey, they're overpowering and overwhelming him. I would include Howard in this also though. Don't come into the superstar club if you can't afford the cover.

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I think I have Bosh on one of 3 or 4 fantasy teams. I don't own a TV, and I don't follow the Raptors. But the guy is a helluva player from what I have seen, and I think the critiques are weak.

Again, you show me a young guy who is owning these fellas, I'll buy it. If nothing else, at 35, Dale Davis could give you 15 or 20 minutes of quality big man defense. Big deal. Antonio was always the more talented player.

Some people like him, some people don't. If he ends up in our jersey, I will root for him, if he stays in someone else's colours, I will hiss and boo (while admiring his talent). This is all hypotheticals anyway. I have a feeling Joe will double Amir and Kwame's salaries and hope they transform into Sheed with a post game, and Dice with hands. I can already see Eli in a wizard's robe with Tom Wilson holding the spell book as Zaret reads the incantations.

Old dogs. As Dice said, less or no practice lets these guys play longer.

Basketball is a trade. Sheed has a book (mentally) on most of his matchups. He's been around long enough to defend everyone from Shaq to Cliff Robinson. Same thing with Dice. Lindsey Hunter was great on D even when he was one of the worst offensive guards in the league, because he played above the neck.

But that takes time. The 24 year old Hunter, was not as great a defender as the 34 year old Hunter.

Nice discussion. I like several of your points. Micro, agree, I would trade the entire youth of the Pistons (except Stuckey) for a Bosh. And that even with an occasional good performances like Maxiel tonight (although the last block came after he stood glued as the Toronto guy went around him for the board--I notice Curry called him out on it).

I love the remark that Dyss is too old except when he outplays all our young bigs which is just about every game lately. But yes, looking forward, Sheed and Dyss need to be replaced or phased out sadly to say. These two guys have had real skill sets that are hard to replace.

Lpgrl, I agree that neither Bosh or Boozer is a superstar or max player but Joe probably knows this. You seem to have a good grasp of talent in the league as I have read your posts. I have only disagreed with your posts on our youth. I think they have been overrated by fans--not something surprising.

We really need a combination of two guys on the front court. Bosh did not dominate anyone tonight but could be a force on the Pistons coupled with another capable big.

2) They are able to spread the floor and take and hit a fair amount of threes.

The Pistons simply cannot pound the ball in time and again. The personnel is not there for it and NBA defenses are too good packing the lane. I know that most Piston fans look for more points in the paint and lament that the team is a jump shooting team. Not really. NBA jumping shooting teams rely a lot on the three ball. The Pistons are a mid-range team. Only Sheed is a natural three point shooter and have we sorely missed his offense!

Again tonight, key plays were Afflalo's late three and Tay's three in overtime. The Pistons couldn't score late in the game as happens often and finally threw the ball out to Afflalo who hit the three. The other option, take a contested shot in the lane and clang it in all probability.

I have clamored for Tay to play more as a spot up shooter as he did in overtime. What do you think the result would have been if he pumped faked and tried to drive instead?

Because we know the Pistons operate within the constraints of not paying the luxury tax, how much we pay a player is only relevant to how much of our total salary level under the cap his contract absorbs, and what better options are available to allocate those salaries. This is under normal conditions.

Under abnormal conditions, because the tax level could contract, Joe will not flirt with acquiring huge pieces he can't trade later (bearing in mind the ability of potential partners to take on those big deals, not the attractiveness of the outgoing assets), or pushing too close to a falling salary level.

I hate to open this up but the team could really use AI at the end of games in crunch time. I have not be impressed with the AI fit but his skill sets could come in handy at the end of games when teams seem to have a handle on what the Pistons are running.

This Piston team needs to score down the stretch to win. They simply have not shown much ability to lock down and in the NBA these days, with the rules, that is hard to do for all but the best defenses.

Do you even realize how few NBA PFs post up anymore? Guys are more likely to be Dirk Nowitzki then Shaquille O'Neal. Even Yao Ming is more Dirk than Shaq. That's how the league is. The post up argument is so played out. Bob Lanier is retired!

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Maybe I'm arguing with myself, but just wanted to point a few things out. I am saying it is ridiculous to bag on Sheed and call him a 2 guard but then pine for Bosh to play here. He took 31 shots tonight.

Sheed didn't start at 24 but did drop 30-34 points in the WCF against Duncan at 24. The following year he had a huge series against LA again in the WCF.

What I don't like about Bosh is that he comes up short pretty consistently against what should be the "die hard" match-ups for him against his fore fathers.

Would DET even be better with Bosh now and without Sheed and Dyess? T-Dot has some talent.

Because we know the Pistons operate within the constraints of not paying the luxury tax, how much we pay a player is only relevant to how much of our total salary level under the cap his contract absorbs, and what better options are available to allocate those salaries. This is under normal conditions.

Maybe I'm arguing with myself, but just wanted to point a few things out. I am saying it is ridiculous to bag on Sheed and call him a 2 guard but then pine for Bosh to play here. He took 31 shots tonight.

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Well, that certainly is not one of my arguments. I think you and I see Sheed for what he is, and isn't.

I hate to open this up but the team could really use AI at the end of games in crunch time. I have not be impressed with the AI fit but his skill sets could come in handy at the end of games when teams seem to have a handle on what the Pistons are running.

This Piston team needs to score down the stretch to win. They simply have not shown much ability to lock down and in the NBA these days, with the rules, that is hard to do for all but the best defenses.

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I think they get so cautious under the guise of milking the clock that is kills them. They'd be better off scoring and leaving time on the clock than working it down to .03 before shooting.

Horrible isn't a strong enough word to describe Stukey taking the clock down for the last shot. He might as well be blind folded.

I think that being that Palace Sports and Entertainment is a corporation, the new shareholders will be more likely to run it as a business than to start treating these assets like the diversions of a billionaire.

I wouldn't bet on the team being run with the same degree of personality (for better and worse) as it was under Bill D.

If you got a young big who's supposed to be a game changer then they should at least have a .500ish record. They're not stacked, but they're not barren either. Pull the team together.

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They have a coach who would barely be an assistant on other squads (Triano, whom I appreciate for his work with Team Canada), and a roster where Roko Ukic is Will Bynum (he isn't) and Joey Graham is supposed to be Maxiell (he's not).

They are lucky to be 2/3rds as talented as us, and dramatically less seasoned.

I think they get so cautious under the guise of milking the clock that is kills them. They'd be better off scoring and leaving time on the clock than working it down to .03 before shooting.

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I mentioned this in the chat. They continue at times to play like the Flip Pistons, playing not to lose, rather than playing to win.

They almost choked the game away tonight trying to win it without scoring another basket. I hope Stuckey doesn't make this a part of his psyche because it will render him completely useless in big games.