OLYMPIA, Wash. – Linda Fleming was diagnosed with terminal cancer and feared her last days would be filled with pain and ever-stronger doses of medication that would erode her mind.

The 66-year-old woman with late-stage pancreatic cancer wanted to be clear-headed at death, so she became the first person to kill herself under Washington state's new assisted suicide law, known as "death with dignity."

I once saw this as a clearly black and white issue; however that was before I had the misfortune to witness my father, my stepmother, my best friend’s mother and my stepfather ravaged by cancer. That was before I saw them scream in agony at the slightest touch of a loved one despite being on painkillers. That was before I watched amputations and other humiliating acts performed on people I loved in the name of health care. Yes, I once had the luxury to see this issue as a right and wrong question. I once thought life was precious and should be preserved at all cost.

Given that most people can commit suicide on their own, I see no reason to drag the medical profession into it. Perhaps what society needs to do is legalize suicide period. Not as if you can punish the person that pulls it off.

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

^^^Ironic truth in that. We can't punish the one who successfully pulled it off.

There doesn't need to be any "prescribed" death, though. Considering that the ill and suffering are already thinking it and perhaps considering it.

Allowing it is one thing which frankly I have a hard time arguing against having had suffering/ill relatives and watching them like this.

Prescribing it, to me however, just simply seems like a way of telling the patient: nobody cares if you're dead or alive so go off yourself. That's where I draw the line.

Telling the doctor from above in government authority to prescribe it where other viable alternatives with a good level of success might exist is just not right. However, making it available as a last resort option on the table so the patients can decide for themselves is acceptable, is better.

I'll advocate freedom of choice.

We'll murder them all, amid laughter and merriment...except for the few we take home to experiment!

Given that most people can commit suicide on their own, I see no reason to drag the medical profession into it.

In the case of medically assisted suicide, the problem is some fight the disease until they are unable to commit suicide on their own. Some of the people that are contemplating suicide because they fear the pain associated with their condition, why should we make them suffer even more pain and anxiety over attempting suicide on their own?

I’m by far not suggesting we force medical professionals into assisting in the death of a patient. However, I see no reason why a medical professional cannot relieve a terminally ill patients suffering and pain if both parties are making a willing, informed, and rational decision based on the medical facts.

Last edited by mimartin; 05-25-2009 at 08:30 PM.
Reason: I spell like a 5th grader

In the case of medically assisted suicide, the problem is some fight the disease until they are unable to commit suicide on their own. Some of the people that are contemplating suicide because they fear the pain associated with their condition, why should we make them suffer even more pain and anxiety over attempting suicide on their own?

I’m by fair not suggesting we force medical professionals into assisting in the death of a patient. However, I see no reason why a medical professional cannot relieve a terminally ill patients suffering and pain if both parties are making a willing, informed, and rational decision based on the medical facts.

Quote:

..but if suicide were legal, there'd be no need for legal issues about assisted suicide.

In such contingincies as you mention, it would be up to the individual medical pros to decide if their participation would be ethical or not.

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

Just so long as it is not prescribed or that the decision is not executed by anything BUT the will of the patient.

I believe the topic is assisted suicide. Seems to me if it is not the patient’s decision then that would no longer be categorized as suicide and would be murder, I have not seen anyone advocate murdering terminally ill patients in this thread. I also don’t advocate it being only the patient’s will unless she/he is thoroughly informed by a medical profession about the prognosis. I believe this is a decision that should be made by the patient, their loved ones and medical professional, but the ultimate decision should be the terminally ill person's.

In such contingincies as you (mimartin)mention, it would be up to the individual medical pros to decide if their participation would be ethical or not.

Besides, people can overdose on OTC meds on their own, don't need a gun. Or the ever "popular" method....slit your wrists. There are no doubt a plethora of ways to keep from dragging doctors into a scenario.

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

Besides, people can overdose on OTC meds on their own, don't need a gun. Or the ever "popular" method....slit your wrists. There are no doubt a plethora of ways to keep from dragging doctors into a scenario.

I still don't understand what a doctor being dragged into this has to do with anything. I did not advocate forcing doctors into perform any procedure they feel unethical or uncomfortable in performing. I want the doctor treating me to be 100% behind whatever procedure they are performing. If however, the doctor concurs with the prognosis, believes in the terminally ill patient’s right to end their suffering and is comfortable with the ethics of the matter, then I believe they should not be prosecute for relieving the persons suffering.

Yes, there are many ways to keep from dragging doctors into the scenario including what I am advocating which would not drag doctors into it. If a doctor choices to participate it would be of their own free will. What you are advocating seems to drag the doctor unwillingly into the scenario by having them treat the patients that fail in their suicide attempt.

If I have to put my pet to sleep I don’t shoot it in the head, I take it to a veterinarian. I just don’t see why a loved one that happens to be human should be treated less humanely than the family dog.

By "dragging doctors into it", I'm not referring to having the govt. force doctors against their will.

Quote:

In such contingincies as you (mimartin)mention, it would be up to the individual medical pros to decide if their participation would be ethical or not.

Just saying that since a doctor is usaully supposed to heal and not harm, it represents an ethical conundrum. If a medical pro is willing to "assist" (like w/doctors who perform abortions) and sees no ethical problem for themself.....then as long as suicide is not illegal in and of itself, so be it.

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

With all that red tape, it'd probably be pretty damn easy to prove.
_EW_

Then let us hope it stays taped up like that.

I'd say, though, that the 'verified by two physicians' thing should include independent of one another.

Curious: would/could there be allowances made in the form of surveillance records at patent's/patien's party's request (after of course being informed of what privacy they are forgoing etc.)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

I have not seen anyone advocate murdering terminally ill patients in this thread.

Never meant to imply that about anyone here, just speaking in the ultimate sense that it should be the patient's (well informed) choice. None other.

Quote:

I also don’t advocate it being only the patient’s will unless she/he is thoroughly informed by a medical profession about the prognosis. I believe this is a decision that should be made by the patient, their loved ones and medical professional, but the ultimate decision should be the terminally ill person's.

I had hoped to imply as much in it being up to the patient, but certianly, thank you for that clarification and show of exceptions.

We'll murder them all, amid laughter and merriment...except for the few we take home to experiment!

Besides, people can overdose on OTC meds on their own, don't need a gun. Or the ever "popular" method....slit your wrists. There are no doubt a plethora of ways to keep from dragging doctors into a scenario.

If a patient is 72 years old and dying of cancer, you expect them to run out to a walmart and buy a bunch of sleeping pills? Or you expect them to have the willpower to buy a razorblade and slit their wrists?

If a patient is 72 years old and dying of cancer, you expect them to run out to a walmart and buy a bunch of sleeping pills? Or you expect them to have the willpower to buy a razorblade and slit their wrists?

The whole idea is that it's a peaceful end to their suffering.

_EW_

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