rayiner wrote:This is for C/O 2010. This was a bad year, but not the year the bottom fell out. Lehman collapsed in September 2008 after firms had already planned their hiring for the year. It was the next year, OCI 2009 where they cut back dramatically. So the data for C/O 2011 is worse.

The data for C/O 2012 is better, but not by a huge margin. E.g. Chicago went from 69% big law SA's for C/O 2011 to 76% big law SA's for C/O 2012. Still down from 90% big law SA's for C/O 2010.

Pardon my ignorance sir, but where can one find stats on summer associate positions? Never seen that before and would like to.

I'm sure I am missing schools because I relied on ctrl + f and the TLS top 100 + tier3/4 lists and not all the state abbreviations are on that list.

Anyway to allow it to be imported to allow sorting? If not, can you sort against a column (anyone besides alphabetical would be cool)I sort of like my stat of (Employed - Business)/grads and if you include that I can delete (or correct to ".") my post.

rayiner wrote:This is for C/O 2010. This was a bad year, but not the year the bottom fell out. Lehman collapsed in September 2008 after firms had already planned their hiring for the year. It was the next year, OCI 2009 where they cut back dramatically. So the data for C/O 2011 is worse.

The data for C/O 2012 is better, but not by a huge margin. E.g. Chicago went from 69% big law SA's for C/O 2011 to 76% big law SA's for C/O 2012. Still down from 90% big law SA's for C/O 2010.

Pardon my ignorance sir, but where can one find stats on summer associate positions? Never seen that before and would like to.

Just wanted to note that while most Business jobs are probably BS, there are people at my law school with MBAs/pursuing MBAs that end up working at FT legit non-law positions with businesses. Are they doing legal work? No idea.

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:You're right, but I just mean people have been trying to excuse employment for a few years now.

Its just been getting worse every year as we learn more.The recession "started" in 2008, but nobody really fully understood the implications of the Lehman collapse until 2009. That was when the bottom fell out of all the other markets.C/O 2008 were first year associates. A ton got Lathamed. Worst year ever?C/O 2009 was starting work. They had a ton of full-time offers rescinded. Worst year ever?C/O 2010 was finishing up their SA's then. They had a ton of no-offers from their SAs. Worst year ever?C/O 2011 was doing their OCI then. They didn't even get SA positions. Worst year ever?

In reality, all four classes got screwed in different ways, though I think each successive class got it worse. It's hard to fire folks, but somewhat easier to tell people they can't start, even easier to not give summers permanent offers, and really easy to never hire summers in the first place.

The spreadsheet of "50-500+ and fed clerkships" seems to confirm so much of the "TLS groupthink" or "hivemind" or whatever you want to call it regarding firm placement for T15-30 schools.

-Vandy/USC/UCLA/UT are in a class below the T14, but clearly higher than the T20.-BU/BC/Fordham are slightly below this group, but above the "Midwest T20s" in firm placement.-ND, Illinois, and WUSTL are truly peers, as much as any schools could be. Every reliable job stat I have ever seen has them lumped closely together.-UMN and Iowa are a step below WUSTL/ND/Illinois. -Indiana, Wisconsin, Arizona State, and Washington are T30 in in name only.

Though I'd be interested to see how these compare to future numbers before making definitive conclusions, they seem to align with how I've always thought of these schools relative to one another.

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:You're right, but I just mean people have been trying to excuse employment for a few years now.

Its just been getting worse every year as we learn more.The recession "started" in 2008, but nobody really fully understood the implications of the Lehman collapse until 2009. That was when the bottom fell out of all the other markets.C/O 2008 were first year associates. A ton got Lathamed. Worst year ever?C/O 2009 was starting work. They had a ton of full-time offers rescinded. Worst year ever?C/O 2010 was finishing up their SA's then. They had a ton of no-offers from their SAs. Worst year ever?C/O 2011 was doing their OCI then. They didn't even get SA positions. Worst year ever?

In reality, all four classes got screwed in different ways, though I think each successive class got it worse. It's hard to fire folks, but somewhat easier to tell people they can't start, even easier to not give summers permanent offers, and really easy to never hire summers in the first place.

romothesavior wrote:The spreadsheet of "50-500+ and fed clerkships" seems to confirm so much of the "TLS groupthink" or "hivemind" or whatever you want to call it regarding firm placement for T15-30 schools.

-Vandy/USC/UCLA/UT are in a class below the T14, but clearly higher than the T20.-BU/BC/Fordham are slightly below this group, but above the "Midwest T20s" in firm placement.-ND, Illinois, and WUSTL are truly peers, as much as any schools could be. Every reliable job stat I have ever seen has them lumped closely together.-UMN and Iowa are a step below WUSTL/ND/Illinois. -Indiana, Wisconsin, Arizona State, and Washington are T30 in in name only.

Though I'd be interested to see how these compare to future numbers before making definitive conclusions, they seem to align with how I've always thought of these schools relative to one another.

For C/O 2010, which is what's in this ABA data, they had 50% in 100+ attorney firms. For C/O 2011, it was 37% (a decline of 30%).

The folks that will be hit the hardest in next year's data are schools outside the T25. The drop from the 2009 to 2010 data is the result of no-offers which affected higher-ranked schools and lower-ranked schools equivalently. However for 2010 to 2011 the drop is due to firms cutting back on OCI, and they cut back further at lower-ranked schools.

romothesavior wrote:The spreadsheet of "50-500+ and fed clerkships" seems to confirm so much of the "TLS groupthink" or "hivemind" or whatever you want to call it regarding firm placement for T15-30 schools.

-Vandy/USC/UCLA/UT are in a class below the T14, but clearly higher than the T20.-BU/BC/Fordham are slightly below this group, but above the "Midwest T20s" in firm placement.-ND, Illinois, and WUSTL are truly peers, as much as any schools could be. Every reliable job stat I have ever seen has them lumped closely together.-UMN and Iowa are a step below WUSTL/ND/Illinois. -Indiana, Wisconsin, Arizona State, and Washington are T30 in in name only.

Though I'd be interested to see how these compare to future numbers before making definitive conclusions, they seem to align with how I've always thought of these schools relative to one another.

Mr. Somebody wrote:Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

I think that the data for my class (2013) will be similar to that of the c/o 2010, maybe a tad lower. In other words, nowhere near pre-ITE, but better than the shitshow data from 2011 (the class that OCI'd in 2009).

Mr. Somebody wrote:Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

I think that the data for my class (2013) will be similar to that of the c/o 2010, maybe a tad lower. In other words, nowhere near pre-ITE, but better than the shitshow data from 2011 (the class that OCI'd in 2009).

Is C/O 2010 still considered "pre-ITE"?

Cause honestly if future classes can expect close to this placement just about any T14 looks like a great investment

Mr. Somebody wrote:Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

I think that the data for my class (2013) will be similar to that of the c/o 2010, maybe a tad lower. In other words, nowhere near pre-ITE, but better than the shitshow data from 2011 (the class that OCI'd in 2009).

Is C/O 2010 still considered "pre-ITE"?

No, c/o 2010 is what you are looking at. It is post-ITE, but before shit really hit the fan. Read the thread, especially Rayiner's posts.

Mr. Somebody wrote:Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

I think that the data for my class (2013) will be similar to that of the c/o 2010, maybe a tad lower. In other words, nowhere near pre-ITE, but better than the shitshow data from 2011 (the class that OCI'd in 2009).

Is C/O 2010 still considered "pre-ITE"?

Cause honestly if future classes can expect close to this placement just about any T14 looks like a great investment

Georgetown placed less than 50% of their students into firms of 50+ or federal clerkships. A ton of those jobs are way under market, some maybe in the 50-60k range. If future classes are similar to this, then how is that a "great investment?"

Mr. Somebody wrote:Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

I think that the data for my class (2013) will be similar to that of the c/o 2010, maybe a tad lower. In other words, nowhere near pre-ITE, but better than the shitshow data from 2011 (the class that OCI'd in 2009).

Is C/O 2010 still considered "pre-ITE"?

Cause honestly if future classes can expect close to this placement just about any T14 looks like a great investment

Georgetown placed less than 50% of their students into firms of 50+ or federal clerkships. A ton of those jobs are way under market, some maybe in the 50-60k range. If future classes are similar to this, then how is that a "great investment?"