Just speak for yourself all round and we will all be much happier in the garden. Any more response to Scientology's fraudulent claims to being a
religion? Is it your contention that all the judges in the civilised world are in some vast anti-Scientology conspiracy too???

Originally posted by DogHead
Just speak for yourself all round and we will all be much happier in the garden. Any more response to Scientology's fraudulent claims to being a
religion? Is it your contention that all the judges in the civilised world are in some vast anti-Scientology conspiracy too???

You've stopped any type of normal debate and have resorted to strawmen and ad hominem attacks. Is there a reason for this? Do you not have any other
points you can debate except for your opinion that the religion is garbage? You're not being very intellectually honest, now are you?

It's not fraudulently claiming to be a religion. It is a religion, and it is legally recognized as such. All 500,000 members recognize it as a
religion as well.

So how can you say it is not a religion?

I don't see the problem you have with this religion. All it amounts to is anti-religionist censorship. You and others like you want religion to fit
your view of what it should be. You want to let the world know what you think religion should be, and so you support the banning of religions
that you do not agree with.

All you are doing is citing anti-scientologist hate sites in the process who only look at the negative aspects of the religion. Of course, I suggest
that you lack the ability to recognize these sites as such because of your preconceivd prejudiced viewpoint toward the religion.

Again, you are trying to deny 500,000 people the right to practice the religion that they choose.

There is a very good reason that scientology has been named as a cult in many countries - and that is that they fall into the definition of one.

That said, many of the established religions would probably also fall into this category if they were just starting.

Scientologists are very well organised and have what many would consider to be their own propaganda wing - that said, so do many established
religions.

But scientology has been known to hound people who leave them, who critisize them or who disagree with them. In isolated cases they have caused the
death of a person by these tactics of "self protection"

Many years ago, when I was at college, I was accosted in the street by people who wanted me to take a "test" - so I thought, "why not, should be
good for a laugh" - I took the test and hey presto, only scientology could save me! that and buying a book for £7.99

But it didn't end there - phone calls, leaflets, letters etc continued for a period of about 9 months and whilst not worrying, were definitely
annoying.

Some see scientology as using insidious methods and hiding their true beliefs when recruiting - I have to say, I agree with them.
In that they are different from any of the established religions, and IMO is one of the major reasons they are labelled a cult.

Anyway, I find it likely that there is a propaganda attack against Scientology for a few reasons in particular:

They boycott BigPharm while they promote Alternative medicine, and claim that psychiatrist are not needed, as we have the ability to identify and
correct our own behavioral problems.

500,000 people spreading the word, along with a few substantial very famous individuals are viewed as a threat to BigPharm and it's cohorts.

Could it be that out of those 500,000 people, it is only the people who do not have the personal fortitude to carry out the scientologist method of
self-activation (or whatever

), and so seek to attack it?

There are tons of people on ATS that also spread this word about BigPharm, about a probable tactic to create disorders out of normal human behavior,
only to develop a pill for them.

Saything things as such, while promoting unproven alternative methods is surely a hazard to status quo society. This is likely why there are so many
Judges that have spoken out against it, they get a nice fat check to be a puppet for a few minutes.

It has been your case that you were only annoyed. This is surely not a crime. I would imagine that the majority of others are in the same boat as you
and that the extreme stories are somewhat exaggerated.

As any other incident that occurs, such as lawsuits or the like that are filed against members of the religion, it is similar to child molesting
priests: They are officials within the religion who have done something wrong, and it has happened many many times. It will most likely happen again.
Most cases are probably not even reported do to feelings of shame or guilt.

Yet, we don't hold the Catholic church for the actions of these men, and we do not seek to ban Catholicism on the basis of child molestion; However,
some are quick to try to ban Scientology simply because of aledged hounding, misrepresentation, and accusations of financial leeching - much lesser
crimes than molesting a child.

They are very sneaky with how they go about recruiting members and how they approach prospective members - when they approached me, there was no
mention of scientology or the (some would say bizarre) beliefs, and in fact they said the survey was a psychological profile, which I find strange
considering their beliefs about psychiatry.
It was only when they had attempted to make me feel insecure about myself as a person that dianetics came into the equation.

Let's face it, playing on peoples emotional and physical insecurities and saying they can all be cured by dianetics is a pretty sneaky way of doing
things.

I would also question their beliefs about psychiatry and the way they try to relate psychiatry to the nazi death camps - this is every bit as bad as
telling a person they will burn in hell, in fact it may be viewed as even more damaging.

As for the catholocism question, I'd like to raise a couple of points;
People are usually born into the RCC and are programmed and indoctrinated from an early age - but it should never be forgotten how much spiritual help
people get from the RCC, and also, the hierarchy of the RCC should not be considered in the same way as everyday church members.

I have been (and will continue to be) a critic of the RCC hierarchy, but this does not mean I am critisizing the beliefs of the members - it's the
hypocrisy of the hierarchy that I dislike.

As a former member of the RCC and someone who has many relatives who go to mass at least once a week, I feel I have some insight into how the church
affects it's "normal" members - and I see nothing but good in many instances. These are people who go to pray and commune with god (as they see it)
and take no notice of the political shenanigins of the hierarchy.

cult Listen to the pronunciation of cult
Pronunciation:
\ˈkəlt\
Function:
noun
Usage:
often attributive
Etymology:
French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate — more at wheel
Date:
1617

1: formal religious veneration : worship2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents3: a religion regarded as unorthodox
or spurious; also : its body of adherents4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator 5 a: great devotion to a
person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of
such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
You've stopped any type of normal debate and have resorted to strawmen and ad hominem attacks.

Rubbish. The only "strawmen" and ad hominem attacks in this thread are from you. You have constantly sought to cloud the issue by referring to the
Catholic Church. What does the Catholic Church have to do with Scientology? Are they your sworn enemies or something? Why the unholy fascination with
them? Professional jealousy? Team rivalry? Simple materialistic money envy?

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
You're not being very intellectually honest, now are you?

Simple linguistic analysis of your phraseology alone marks you as an auditor. Your amateur night theatrics and clumsy interrogation training is not
going to cut it against the real thing, hotshot. Use some facts. Or accept your defeat.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
You and others like you want religion to fit your view of what it should be. You want to let the world know what you think religion should be,
and so you support the banning of religions that you do not agree with.

I don't agree with organised religion period. Everyone on Earth should be free to choose in an educated culture without fear mongers and devil cults
perverting people's minds. Agitprop can come from any self-interested source. Any remotely normal reading of the record of the life and times of L.
Ron Hubbard demonstrates beyond any doubt that he was a compulsive liar, a psychosexual deviant and a grotesquely materialistic money grubber. His
claim to fame is chiefly that he served as an apologist for the weak-minded and a purveyor of an American brand of Nazi mysticism that unfortunately
is always going to appeal to the least honest most deviant groups within a free society. Scientology and all other fringe movements like it take hold
in a culture in direct proportion to the robustness and health of the body politic.

And as a final point on the "and others like you" reference-- who on earth do you think you are, to be able to even guess at my nature, and from
there inductively put together some group to which I belong? Arrant nonsense all round. And an ad hominem attack, which so far in this thread is your
only apparent marketable skill.

And finally, just to be clear: SCIENTOLOGY IS NOT A RELIGION.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Again, you are trying to deny 500,000 people the right to practice the religion that they choose.

You seem very willing to give me enormous amounts of theoretical power. How interesting. Not everyone sees the world in the same Hegelianistic
cryptofascist terms as Scientologists however. Empirical evidence and common sense stand in stark contrast to your assertions. You are particularly
hampered by the total lack of any evidence whatsoever for your assertions.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Do you have aspirations to be a fascist dictator?

Yeah right and China is a full demokratic country.
Scientology ist just a bunch of people that like to manipulate others and get their money.Its a cult nothing else.It calls itself church because then
you have to pay less taxes thats the only reason why the Sci Fiction Writer Hubbard made it into a religion.He was greedy.
Imagine nowadays someone like maybe Steven Spielberg making a religion he has lots of fantasy too.And the Stupid Tom Cruise caught Will Smith and made
him into one of their own freaks.
I remember i read some comments about Will Smith where he said no I will never change my religion my grandma would turn around in her grave.
Now she rolled finnaly over.
People often underestimate how good they are in manipulating people.
Germany is not making any propaganda they just had those crazy scientology guys making too much bad things that everyone could witness.
In the US unfortunatly is a bigger place you don`t see what they are up to.
Making illegal stuff Scientology and Me is a good Documentary about whats going on there a Documentation from BBC.

You have constantly sought to cloud the issue by referring to the Catholic Church. What does the Catholic Church have to do with Scientology? Are they
your sworn enemies or something? Why the unholy fascination with them? Professional jealousy? Team rivalry? Simple materialistic money envy?

Scientology is not in a vacuum. I've brought up points that both religions have officials that perform unsavory acts. This appears to have gone over
your head.

Simple linguistic analysis of your phraseology alone marks you as an auditor. Your amateur night theatrics and clumsy interrogation training is not
going to cut it against the real thing, hotshot. Use some facts. Or accept your defeat.

Funny!

This coming from the same guy who thought "we" meant all white people!

And as a final point on the "and others like you" reference-- who on earth do you think you are, to be able to even guess at my nature, and from
there inductively put together some group to which I belong? Arrant nonsense all round. And an ad hominem attack, which so far in this thread is your
only apparent marketable skill.

By others like you, I don't mean *you* as an individual. Don't be absurd, I don't even know you. What is mean is people who post in a similar
fashion as you, who appear to be biggoted, highly opinionated, and dodgy. There is a context to this message board, but it appears to be one more
thing that has slipped passed you.

"Is Scientology a cult or a religion?"
There are many types of cults. Some are religious cults and others are not; the first term does not rule out the other. Every cult can be defined as a
group having all of the following five characteristics:

1.It uses psychological coercion to recruit, indoctrinate and retain its members.
2.It forms an elitist totalitarian society.
3.Its founder/leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, not accountable and has charisma.
4.It believes 'the end justifies the means' in order to solicit funds and recruit people.
5.Its wealth does not benefit its members or society.

This coming from the same guy who thought "we" meant all white people!

Hunh? Bizarre comment. But another ad hominem one to add to your list. Outstanding effort. Interestingly, each type of bigotry raised in this thread
has been raised by you. Now you've added closet racism to the mix. Scientology stops at nothing to wear down its enemies. And since it's enemies
include every rational free-willed person on the planet, wow that must get exhausting.

Any evidence yet? Otherwise I guess the facts will speak for themselves-

SCIENTOLOGY IS NOT A RELIGION.

Religions do not have trade secrets. Moneymaking enterprises do. If the primary concern of any enterprise is to turn a profit and grab money off
people who come to it... That enterprise is a business. NOT a religion.

This coming from the same guy who thought "we" meant all white people!

Hunh? Bizarre comment. But another ad hominem one to add to your list. Outstanding effort. Interestingly, each type of bigotry raised in this thread
has been raised by you. Now you've added closet racism to the mix. Scientology stops at nothing to wear down its enemies. And since it's enemies
include every rational free-willed person on the planet, wow that must get exhausting.

Any evidence yet? Otherwise I guess the facts will speak for themselves-

SCIENTOLOGY IS NOT A RELIGION.

Religions do not have trade secrets. Moneymaking enterprises do. If the primary concern of any enterprise is to turn a profit and grab money off
people who come to it... That enterprise is a business. NOT a religion.

How foolish. You are saying that you didn't post "What's this 'we' stuff, white man?" ?? You were either calling me a white man - which is
racist by the way - or suggesting that I was speaking about every white man.

And since it's enemies include every rational free-willed person on the planet, wow that must get exhausting.

You seem to be one of it's enemies. I'm surprised you have time to type on ATS with all of the scientologists trying to kill you!

Conspirary
Theorist's enemies are also every rational free-willed person on the planet, so you don't have a point.

You can attempt to define the word "religion" however you see fit, but that's not going to change a thing. It's not up to you, it's up to the
religion itself and the half million people who practice it every day.

I don't know what more evidence you need other than every member considers it to be a religion, and various countries consider it to be a religion.
If only one person considers it a religion, then it is in fact religion by the very definition of the word. It is a practiced set of beliefs. This is
something you can not seem to understand, yet it is so simple.

You say it rips people off - This is clearly not part of the belief system that is adopted by its members. It's officials seem to like it.

Catholic priests molest little children - this is also clearly not part of the belief system that is adpoted by it's members. It's officials seem to
like it.

You say it brainwashes people - This would be a side effect, just as the Christian crusades and the murder of millions of people were a side affect of
that "divine right" brainwashing. I recall that that same divine right, "manifest destiny" was used as an excuse to slaughter native Americans as
well.

You say scientologists discredit people - I say the catholic church used to burn heretics at the stake as a form of ultimate discreditation.

I think if you actually opened your mind, stopped looking at it through a vacuum of ignorance, you would see that Scientology as a religion has done
nowhere near as much harm as the big three religions, and it is in fact a religion - just as disgusting as the majority of them them.

Give it some time, and it will mature. Soon, your children will be praying to the almighty Xenu for their chance to goto Nibiru and live among the
Annunaki while they are level 27 activated agents.

If you want to live in a perfect little world, you'll need to ban every religion, ban freedom of speech, ban freedom of action, and let yourself be
micro managed by the state - or else become a succesful dictator.

Humans don't know how to get along, and you strike me as a prime example of a stubborn close minded individual who can not accept the beliefs of
others, and their right to get fooled into doing something stupid because they can't think 2 feet past their nose.

So lets get to the bottom of it.

Do you want to ban every religion, or just the ones you don't agree with?

Are you for freedom of expression and practice, or for censorship of personal liberty?

Do you leave the choice in the hands of the people, or do you put it in the hands of the state?

This is what it comes down to, and I don't think you have the ability to differentiate a principle, and your own personal beliefs on the subject.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
You seem to be one of it's enemies. I'm surprised you have time to type on ATS with all of the scientologists trying to kill you!

Was that a death threat? Sure sounded like one. Classy effort.

Now. Any evidence AT ALL that Scientology is anything more than what it looks like? To be clear again, Scientology is a money-grubbing psychopath cult
with cryptofascist behaviour patterns and mental aberration as its raison d'etre.

What does the great book of L Ron tell you to do when that fails and no one wants to purchase any snake oil?

Watch another video by a sawn-off bisexual hollywood actor?

Horrible stuff. Just horrible.

Now. For the last time for which I can be bothered... Any evidence to support the genuineness of Scientology? Its status as a religion in general
terms? Its charitable works? How about a body of art and literature inspired by it? Oh that's right, it's all copyright and trademarked so no one
within this supposed religion is allowed to actually add to its alleged religious corpus.

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