only 30' ? that's a boulder problem. Run it out and use a crash pad. i've done that at a local crag that was bolted on lead where the 1st is 25' off the ground and it's the 1st 25' where the crux is. i'd rather do that than waste energy placing questionable pro.

to me that would make more sense b/c whoever comes to onsite the thing is gonna probably not going to know beta on the pro. i don't climb with anyone who has tricams, hexes, or splitter cams. so i would just run it out onsite if it looked within my limits. (don't confuse the term onsite to mean that i would be sucessful first try, just that it would be the onsite attempt). plus you'll look like a badass if you run it out.

Wow, very articulate response, I'm impressed. It's certainly obvious that between the two of us I'm the moron. :roll:

Fact: Pitons damage natural features in the rock whenever placed. Pitons have a long documented history of changing the nature of climbs by enhancing the size of cracks.

Fact: Pitons are less reliable than modern bolts. Pitons are more likely to appear good while actually be very bad, verses bolts. Pitons require more frenquent replacement than bolts. Read: many experts believe modern SS 1/2 bolts will last 100 years.

Fact: When removed, a bolt hole is much easier to repair than a pin scar.

And that's just some of my dim witted BS...

In reply to:

FYI some rock is hard enough to make a stainless or ti piton as good as any other semi permanent pro.

I'll go ahead and call BS now. This is rarely the case. It certainly may be the case for the first couple of years, but compare how the two systems work. An expansion bolts tightens as it receives an outward force. A piton is a wedge bashed into a crack, with the more falls they receive and with freeze/ thaw they inherently work their way out of the crack.

Wow, very articulate response, I'm impressed. It's certainly obvious that between the two of us I'm the moron. :roll:

Fact: Pitons damage natural features in the rock whenever placed. Pitons have a long documented history of changing the nature of climbs by enhancing the size of cracks.

Fact: Pitons are less reliable than modern bolts. Pitons are more likely to appear good while actually be very bad, verses bolts. Pitons require more frenquent replacement than bolts. Read: many experts believe modern SS 1/2 bolts will last 100 years.

Fact: When removed, a bolt hole is much easier to repair than a pin scar.

And that's just some of my dim witted BS...

In reply to:

FYI some rock is hard enough to make a stainless or ti piton as good as any other semi permanent pro.

I'll go ahead and call BS now. This is rarely the case. It certainly may be the case for the first couple of years, but compare how the two systems work. An expansion bolts tightens as it receives an outward force. A piton is a wedge bashed into a crack, with the more falls they receive and with freeze/ thaw they inherently work their way out of the crack.

YOU don't have a clue. Half your facts are talking about pins used as removable gear, we are not talking about that. Sounds like you have no idea how to place a pin as semi permanent gear. SOunds like you have never seen really hard sandstone, where there are numerous pins that are still solid after 10 years. Sounds like you think the whole country freezes over several times a year. And for the last time, SOME areas do not allow bolting, but they do allow pins.

Stainles bolts lasting 100 years, that's a riot. Now it is clear that you have no idea about the conditions in the south. YOU wanna read something, go read about metal salts ( ionic solutions) and electro potentials with regard to corrosion and bolts.

I'm sorry I called yo ua moron, that was wrong. You are a self roghteous ill informed pompous A$$.

There si no way I would drill it. That's just me personally. A piton, that's another story. again just personal opinion.

Why? Because you like leaving dubious fixed protection? Because you hope someday the slot will be hammered into a finger lock?

Pitons have there place (read alpine, mixed climbing, and aid), cragging ain't one of them. And 99% of the time, not as an option for fixed pro either.

Pitons do also have theire place in first ascends in my opinion. I shurely would not go so far to call you a moron, but try to think a bit further: As far as i understood it he wants to do it Clean and leave it lake that, so it wouldnt be a sport climbing route, so noone expects "safe" fixed protection. For him (if placed properly) the piton would help a great deal, and for further repetitions... place screamer and dont expect them to hold, aks dont fall. You also can replace pitons after a while, if the route is very popular. And BTW expansion bolts, stainless or not, ar far from being a piece that you can trust for hundred years. If you bult ist, use Glue ins!

If you wont/cant place a piton and nothing else, why not headpoint it?

Camp used to make somthing like a tricam on a cable with a normal nut instead of the tricam head, very similar to the strange thing pictured above, maybe that could be somthing for you. And i also have heard about something called titons or the like, very oldschool. Maybe check out that ?

YOU don't have a clue. Half your facts are talking about pins used as removable gear, we are not talking about that. Sounds like you have no idea how to place a pin as semi permanent gear. SOunds like you have never seen really hard sandstone, where there are numerous pins that are still solid after 10 years. Sounds like you think the whole country freezes over several times a year. And for the last time, SOME areas do not allow bolting, but they do allow pins.

Stainles bolts lasting 100 years, that's a riot. Now it is clear that you have no idea about the conditions in the south. YOU wanna read something, go read about metal salts ( ionic solutions) and electro potentials with regard to corrosion and bolts.

I'm sorry I called yo ua moron, that was wrong. You are a self roghteous ill informed pompous A$$.

Something to consider, if your climbing experience is limited to to southeast sandstone, you may ponder the applicability of the advice you seem to so liberally dispense. We are talking conglomerate in this thread. Further, for arguments sake, lets say that pins are good in your local crag, how much of the worlds climbing, or climbing in the US for that matter, does that represent.

For one moment step outside your selfish little world and look at the big picture when establishing new routes. It's not all about you. It's about establishing a line that perhaps many will follow and will stand as a testimate to your ethics and standards. We all need to think long term when we damage the rock.

I'll put it simply so you can hopefully follow. I won't get into argueing the longevity of bolts in this thread, start a new one if you are interested. For arguyments sake, let's just say on average (of course there are exceptions + or -) a SS 1/2 inch bolt will last 50 years, and lets just say that every 5 years a piton needs to be reset and replaced every 15 years or so. Every time you bang a pin in it will further damage the rock. Modern hard metal pitons do not bend to the shape of the rock, its vice versa. 50 years go by, I have replaced the bolt once by removing it and placing a new bolt in the same hole. In the same time I have had bang on that pin scar 10 times, placing ever larger pins 3 times. Now think of 100 years from now, 200, etc.

Perhaps that exact scenario doesn't work for you, but I think even you can get the point. You can argue it until your blue in the face, but no matter how you cut it, bolts offer better, more reliable fixed protection. I'm sure you've studied some basic physics somewhere along the way.

How's this for a possible response when I asked you why you prefer pitons: "Some of the areas I climb don't allow bolts and pins are fairly reliable the hard sandstone of the southest". Hummm just a thought.

Pitons do also have theire place in first ascends in my opinion. I shurely would not go so far to call you a moron, but try to think a bit further: As far as i understood it he wants to do it Clean and leave it lake that, so it wouldnt be a sport climbing route, so noone expects "safe" fixed protection.

Read what i wrote previously on first ascents, we all need to think long term. Bolts do have there place in "Trad climbing". Who says there has to be a bolt every 3 feet, how about one to protect 30 feet.

My fist suggestion is to solo the first 30 feet if he wants to do it in good style. A piton is no more "clean" than a bolt.

In reply to:

And BTW expansion bolts, stainless or not, ar far from being a piece that you can trust for hundred years. If you bult ist, use Glue ins!

I said 100 years, not "hundreds". Anyway, for the pedantic I should have said "in some conditions a 1/2 SS bolt may last up to 100 years", my apologies to all.

tedc- thank you. That is exactly what I was thinking while reading this. While lead-bolting (including A0 lead) is better style than rap bolting, that does not neccesarily mean that soloing (running out-semantics) the first 30 feet is much better syle (if at all) than the lead bolting. Boldness may be a component of good style (and very often is) but the two are not synonomous. From the sound of this line, the first 30 feet are pretty close to unprotectable, and a ground up bolt to protect it doesn't sound unreasonable. ASSUMING, OF COURSE, that the local ethic allows ANY bolts, ever.

Would someone explain the difference between lead bolting and rap bolting? Thanks

Fact: Pitons are less reliable than modern bolts. Pitons are more likely to appear good while actually be very bad, verses bolts. Pitons require more frenquent replacement than bolts. Read: many experts believe modern SS 1/2 bolts will last 100 years.

I call BS, specifically on sentence #2. You can test pitons. You cannot test bolts. Visual assessment is worthless, why are you discussing it? Score one for the pins!

I call BS, specifically on sentence #2. You can test pitons. You cannot test bolts. Visual assessment is worthless, why are you discussing it? Score one for the pins!

coylec

http://www.safeclimbing.com/education/fixedpinsafety.htm

You could theoretically test a mank bolt in a similar fashion as a pin. Unless you have some special technique, besides tapping it with a hammer.

Agreed visual assessment is worthless, bolts have their own myriad of issues. However, I'd take a good looking bolt over a good looking pin anyday, and i don't think that's unfounded. I'd say the same for similarly bad looking as well.

As to why it's being discussed, read the whole thread. Even then it will most likely seem silly.

All fixed pro should be considered suspect to some degree. If you didn't place it, you know relatively nothing about it. If you evaluate the two side be side as options for fixed pro, bolts are more reliable in the long rung. How do you like to stack your odds?

Since no one has brought it up and I seem to remeber seeing it in ones of the climbing videos, have you tried one of the smaller trango big bros. In the video the climber uses it in a hueco. Seemed pretty solid perhaps worth a shot. Good luck.

Am I the only one who's hear/read that using a hammer on bolts is a no-no? 'cause I'm pretty sure it is.

I'd trust a 30 year old pin over a 30 year old bolt. Pins are a staple of fixed anchors in the SE (like dirt sez) and for good reasons (which dirt has said).

Side by side, I think pins are better because you are able to test them, unless of course, you don't have a hammer. With the number of "bolters" on this site asking what I consider fairly basic questions, I'm more suspect of bolts now than ever.

I don't trust Haliburton when they talk about how 'good' nonrenewable energy sources are or how 'clean' they are ... its their job to promote themselves (and what they do). Analogy follows to ASCA. I like 'em, no doubt, but trying to get solid information about bolts from them is like getting the truth from a used car salesperson.

In re: the thread, I don't think either should be used. Why not just use some hooks? You can use them as pro: check it . Talk to some aid climbers about how to duct tape them.

You could theoretically test a mank bolt in a similar fashion as a pin. Unless you have some special technique, besides tapping it with a hammer.

Please don't go around "testing" bolts by tapping on them. :evil: A light tap on a pin will not usually degrade the placement, but a tap on the end of some types of bolts can unseat the wedging action that holds it in the rock. This can ruin an otherwise well placed bolt. Not to mention that you will gain no aditional information about the quality of the placement. Try and wiggle it with your fingers. Thay is about the best "non visual" test. Even if it wiggles it doesn't necessarily suck.

Analogy follows to ASCA. I like 'em, no doubt, but trying to get solid information about bolts from them is like getting the truth from a used car salesperson.

Yihaww! Got to love rock-whining-dot-com...

Here's what the ASCA website has to say on the subject, at: www.safeclimbing.org/about_overview.htm:

In reply to:

Bolts are not regulated or certified and may break

Bolts used for outdoor rock climbing in the U.S. have historically not been regulated or certified in any way. Historical practice is to use bolts which are nowhere near any "reasonable" level of safety compared to the standards of modern society, and even the bolts used now to establish new routes and replace old bolts are not certified or regulated in any way. Limitations due to ease and speed and type mean that even many bolts used by the ASCA are nowhere near what would be considered acceptable safety margins in other walks of life such as the modern construction industry. The ASCA is a bit of a misnomer, because climbing is (obviously) not a "safe" thing to do. Old deteriorating bolts are potential death traps even for experienced climbers, and the ASCA seeks to replace them with well camouflaged stainless steel bolts which will not rust, and are easily removable/replaceable in the future. No bolt is ever guaranteed, and trusting a bolt with your life is always a gamble.

Avalanches, rock fall, incorrect installation, freeze/thaw cycles, manufacturing defects, and climbers attempting to remove the bolt with tools can all be the cause of messed up bolts. Bolts are technically speaking "abandoned property" and not regulated by any government agency or any organization.

Bolts replaced by the ASCA may break

The ASCA is an entirely volunteer effort to do maintenance and the bolts placed by the ASCA are in no way guaranteed and may fail.

If you are seeking security, DO NOT CLIMB. To quote Helen Keller, "Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." Climbing of any type inherently involves the risk of death. Those hiding their unwillingness to take responsibility for their own actions behind the current legal system of the U.S. should never attempt to climb anything.

tradslime, I just wrote a post where I officially retired from flaming, and anyway, the more you say the dumber you look, so I'll just leave it at that.

NO wait, before I go, What do you mean, BIG PICTURE? we are talking about ONE CLIMB here bub. The piton was ONE out of SIX suggestions, and you fixate on what is accepted practice among MANY serioius FA trad artists, prove that you don't know much, ignore refutations of your stupid arguments, I mean, there really is no point in continuing.

Except to say that you sound a lot like a retro bolting sport weenie.

THere. I'm done. Have the last word if it makes you feel important behind what is possibly your only apparent connection to climbing-- your computer.

You could theoretically test a mank bolt in a similar fashion as a pin. Unless you have some special technique, besides tapping it with a hammer.

Please don't go around "testing" bolts by tapping on them. :evil: A light tap on a pin will not usually degrade the placement, but a tap on the end of some types of bolts can unseat the wedging action that holds it in the rock. This can ruin an otherwise well placed bolt. Not to mention that you will gain no aditional information about the quality of the placement. Try and wiggle it with your fingers. Thay is about the best "non visual" test. Even if it wiggles it doesn't necessarily suck.

Please don't misunderstand that I was in any advocated this. That's why I said "besides tapping it with a hammer." Like you said you can wiggle on it. You can also yank on it with a sling, or even bounce test it.

tradslime, I just wrote a post where I officially retired from flaming, and anyway, the more you say the dumber you look, so I'll just leave it at that.

Except to say that you sound a lot like a retro bolting sport weenie.

Well done! The best you can come up with is name calling. It's probably better that you're giving up because it seems you were headed towards "I know you are but what am I" or "I'm rubber and you're glue..." Brilliant!

It's amusing that you think somewhere in all your drival you have refuted anything that I have stated. The only support you have is that pins are in common use in hard southeast sandstone (remember we were talking about conglomerate here). That doesn't mean they are the best options, it is more likely that the locals are clinging to archaic tradition. That's right up there with dissing cams and only using hexes, go for it. Since I'm the moron, why don't you really outline it for me, perhaps even bulletize your points.

In fact we can just limit it to just this one: "Over many years (lets say 200 for fun) if a piton is used as fixed protection and is maintain such that it offers reliable protection, i.e. it is reset and replaced at regular intervals, it will enlarge the slot that it is placed in, perhaps even to the extent of manufacturing a usable hold.

It also interesting that the artical I linked previously from safeclimbing.com was written by one of your fellow southeast hardmen who was on a project that included replacing old pins with bolts, I suppose the Carolina Climbing Coalition are a bunch of Jackasses as well. Unless of course North Carolina is just filled with a bunch of sporto no-ethic yankees.

In reply to:

THere. I'm done. Have the last word if it makes you feel important behind what is possibly your only apparent connection to climbing-- your computer.

Now that's a good dig from someone who has almost 1,900 post and apparently has only climbed one type of rock.

HEHEHE selective quoting is the last refuge of a LOSER in a pointless internet argument. But your skill at unfounded assumptions and various logical fallacies as well as rhetorical trikery is admirable.

But your skill at unfounded assumptions and various logical fallacies as well as rhetorical trikery is admirable.

And perhaps so is my ability to get under your skin. I still don't understand why you chose to lash out with all the name calling from the get go.

As far as logical fallacies... Pitons only work one way, no fallacy there. Piton damage to rock is well documented, no fallacy there. Whether used as removeable rock pro while climbing or used as fixed pro and maintained; the damage they do is the same, it is just a difference in the amount of time, no fallacy there.

To make a point, sometimes an extreme position is taken. As you can tell, I hate fixed pins. I've witnessed their unreliability in granite, quartzite, basalt, sandstone (soft and hard, but perhaps not your ultra hard stuff), limestone, yadda yadda yadda... I've found them on the ground after they've fallen out, I've pulled them out of the rock with my bare hands, and I've witnessed the severe damage done by them. I've also witnessed the uneducated clip them as their only pro between them and the ground, and not give it a second thought. Everyone has an opinion based on something. Perhaps your area is an exception, whatever I'll concede that, but it's not the rule.

I will sign off from what has been a truly entertaining interchange and allow you the last word if you want it, only I actually mean it when I say it. :wink:

The only support you have is that pins are in common use in hard southeast sandstone (remember we were talking about conglomerate here).

I dont want to add some oil to the flaming, but this statement is some kind of :deadhorse: :wtf: does this smiley do to the horse?

As far as i understood you, you are favoring SS expansion bolts. Apart from being unreliable, they are putting a large amount of outward forces on the rock. this may work in hard stuff, but in soft conglomerate, you may totally blow the placement. A pin also puts a lot of outward pressure on the rock, but you can also use pitons made of a softer material (as they are commonly used in the european alps). They are also more resitant to rust. If you are bolting it: For soft stuff: Use long glue-ins!!http://www.gipfelbuch.de/images/img43.gifhttp://www.fixeclimbing.com/...sor_014_A__small.jpg

I have taken falls on pitons that could have been placed by my grandfather and they held, on the other hand there are new pitons that are crap, so yes, clipping pins is a risky game, but isnt that what climbing is all about? pins are only dangerrous if you clip them and think BOMBER! If you now that they are more often than not crap, then you climb below your limit, or back it up, and so you should be fine.

Expansion bolts are also a piece of protection on wich you should be really carefull: Look at how the forces of a fall are distributed among the many companets of the bolt, and how large the contact area is where the forces get to. this is totally crazy! Even if its not weighted, there is a constant (large) amount of many different torque forces on the bolt. Its constantly under tension wich helps the rust to do greater damage. Stainless steel insnt really rust free, since the process of rusting is just a chemical reaction between the metal and the oxygen of the air. Varios other chemicals out of the bolt, the rock, the rain, the air ... play in this game, doing good things or bad things. You could place two eqeal SS bolt in two different rocks, it could stay safe for 20 years int the first, and get totally screwed within 2 years in the second. *Really* rustfree materials are stuff like gold, platin, titanium and some sort of steel (the one good taps and citchen sinks are made of) but they all arent usable for expansion bolts, since the varius amounts of tension forces on them. And last but not least: expansion bolts need to be set with a speicial amount of torque, so you should set them with a torque wrench. This mostly isnt done, mostly bolts are overthigtened, wich is as bad as a loose bolt. You know: loose, thigter, thigt, thigter .... loose

Oh and one last thing: im in no way an expert or ingeneering guy ore 38347+ FA guy ore somewhat. im only trying to ad some facts and experiences (Which could potentially lead to severe injury or death, since the could potentially be wrong or just olain stupid!) since this as i think important theme gets down to some stupid ego fixing flaming.