Quote: Now you are really being ridiculous. Randy Couture, Genki Sudo, Fedor, etc...are not elite athletes? Come on man.

These guys are the best of a very very small group of people who compete in MMA style combat sport.

To compare them to people who are the best in a sport where Millions of people from childhood play and compete for the few spots in the major sports, is ridiculous.

MMA is generations behind, in the quality of athlete who is competing, not just money.

Quote: That Chuck has more overall skill - the exact point I was trying to make.

NO he has a particular Skill he has trained in, having someone untrained fight someone who is trained is a waste of time and proves nothing.

Now take the best pound for pound boxer on the planet and train him for MMA bouts for a couple of years, then put him in the octagon, he would monkey stomp these guys, I have no doubt of this.

Matt I respect the MMA fighters, but I have been around Professional Athletes in football and basketball, I was a pretty damn good athlete myself in my prime, and I can assure these guys are not like the rest of us, they are scary gifted.

Imagine a Mike Tyson in the octagon with those light gloves he would kill people, cave in faces with his speed and power.

Quote:These guys are the best of a very very small group of people who compete in MMA style combat sport.

My point exactly. What makes you think they cannot hang with other elite athletes? I really want to know. Do you think that YOU can hang with Randy, Fedor, etc? In what way do you find then inferior? How do you equate size of membership to athletic skill? I suppose high-altitude mountain climbers or open ocean swimmers are not elite athletes either, since there are less of them than boxers? Your whole argument is flawed.

Quote:NO he has a particular Skill he has trained in, having someone untrained fight someone who is trained is a waste of time and proves nothing.

That comment does not even make sense in your argument - that is the point that I have been trying to make all along, with Floyd. He has an even MORE 'particular skill'.

Quote:Imagine a Mike Tyson in the octagon with those light gloves he would kill people, cave in faces with his speed and power.

You mean like CroCop?

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Quote: What makes you think they cannot hang with other elite athletes? I really want to know.

Next year go to the combine and see what elite athletes can really do.

Matt if want to think the MMA fighters of today are on the same athletic level of Pro Football players or Pro Boxers like Mayweather and De la Hoya, fine believe away.

Quote: that is the point that I have been trying to make all along, with Floyd. He has an even MORE 'particular skill'.

Along with worldclass athletic ability, thats the real point. Take Chuck and Floyd and train them in the same way, Floyd wins hands down, this is not an insult to Chuck it's a recognition of ability.

Quote: Do you think that YOU can hang with Randy, Fedor, etc?

Lets not get into personal abilities on an internet forum, it adds nothing to the conversation.

Quote: You mean like CroCop?

If you are comparing CroCop to Mike Tyson in terms of ability, you and I will never agree on anything.

CroCop is interesting to me in another way as he is a fighter who demonstrated how poor the level of competition was in many of the fight circuits. Now combine his training and a world class athlete and people will be leaving the octagon in body bags, not just broken orbital bones.

Quote: Take Chuck and Floyd and train them in the same way, Floyd wins hands down, this is not an insult to Chuck it's a recognition of ability.

That is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read. Train them in the same way and Floyd wins hands down?? Are you serious?? Why would Floyd win if they trained in the same way?

As you also have displayed very limited knowledge of boxing I'll attempt to enlighten you however hopeless it may seem.

You say boxers are world class atheletes? Look at the heavy-weight division. It's dead. Because most of the heavy-weight boxers can't last until round 6 without an oxygen tank in their corner. Most of the 'elite' boxers are either flyweight or bantamweight.

Now look at Crocop, Fedor, Vanderlei. They're all heavy-weights. Lean heavyweights too, not the obese juggernauts you've got in the boxing heavyweight divisions these days.

I'm actually more impressed with the MMA people's physique and stamina than boxers because frankly seeing two people sitting in their corner with oxygen masks is just downright pathetic.

Now old-school like Mark Coleman or Kevin Randleman; They are big, lean and quite mean. Not once have I seen them 'gas' out during any bout. They are explosive and strong. Very unlike the boxing heavyweight division.

Quote: that is the point that I have been trying to make all along, with Floyd. He has an even MORE 'particular skill'.

He has more "BOXING" skills, but his "GRAPPLING" is virtually non-existant. So if you were to compare, Chuck is actually more skilled has he has a wider RANGE OF SKILLS and more tricks in his arsenal.

Quote: he is a fighter who demonstrated how poor the level of competition was in many of the fight circuits.

No, it only showed how much more prepared he was against grapplers. The only reason Crocop is dominating is because he did his home-work, and he did it good. But then again, everyone wins or loses in MMA. Usually randomly, and quite often. There's very few people who are constant winners because you can EXPLOIT the other person's WEAKNESS. If you were faced with a striker, take him to the ground. If you were faced with a grappler, stay up and keep your distance. It's a matter who plays their strategic game better and who has more luck.

-Taison out

_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Kimo, How is he a more gifted athlete? What do you base this arguement on? Boxers have decent stamina but MMA fighters have better. Anythime you have to deal with a 200 lb athlete leaning on you, laying on you, kneeing on your gut, pummeling you on the ground, exerting constant resistance to any move you make, your stamina is going to be better than if you are dancing around throwing punches. No one is putting their whole body weight on you constantly. There are clinches but that is nothing like having to push someone off you from being underneath them half the fight constantly struggling against them to keep them at bay. I have done both and stamina wise, boxing is taxing but not nearly as taxing as groundfighting.

And what kind of arguement can you have when the man himself has stated clearly that he respects the fighters and that he wants no part of any MMA fighter?

Athleticly, MMA guys, especially the top fighters, are as well trained as any boxer, perhaps better when it comes to stamina. It is like putting a pure sprinter against a decathalon athlete. In the sprints, yes, the sprinter would embarrass the over all athlete but there are several other areas to a decathalon that would leave the sprinter clearly outmatched and undertrained. The same applies to boxing and MMA. The stand up game is only one aspect of MMA. Leg kicks, takedowns, and grappling are a big part as well. All of which Mayweather would be hopelessly outmatched in.

On his back, a boxer is in serious trouble, no matter how well trained a boxer he is.

Scottie

_________________________"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

Quote:To compare them to people who are the best in a sport where Millions of people from childhood play and compete for the few spots in the major sports, is ridiculous.

I don't understand this, perhaps you can better explain this comment Kimo. Let's put this into perspective:

CFL Football - established 1958 … though formerly a Rugby league (CRFU) founded 1884NFL Football - established 1922NBA Basketball - established 1946MLB Baseball - established 1869

UFC - established 1993

As kids we grew up playing all of these games because they had been around forever and were established in our heritage, how can you compare MMA such as the UFC of even being remotely old enough that it is inbred in our culture? Heck until maybe 5 years ago tops, the majority of the world did not even know what it was. Now that it is in your face you can see how much it is affecting our society and that can be seen everywhere including this forum where we get many young people thinking this is what they want to do. Kids are joining more martial art schools then they ever have. School are popping up all over the place trying to cash in on this. Kids are fighting in school yards and underground. Give it some years and like the rest of these and then let's talk.

Quote: Imagine a Mike Tyson in the octagon with those light gloves he would kill people, cave in faces with his speed and power.

So you are saying that Mike Tyson hits harder then anybody else? You really have to be kidding yourself. Mike Tyson can punch hard for sure, but there are many other boxers that can hit just as hard if not harder. And there are MMA fighters that can hit hard and if not harder and I would rank Chuck Liddell as one of them. Tyson is a tough guy but he had several opportunities to go into MMA and he didn't, why? I'll tell you why, he knows that it is a different beast and though he would have a puncher's chance, that is all he would have and he would be owned even if he started training grappling. The same goes for Mayweather. They may excel at punching but it is a different beast in the ring/cage so unless you are going to put up … then shut up. And neither has made any venture to MMA so I guess they shut up!

Quote: Along with worldclass athletic ability, thats the real point. Take Chuck and Floyd and train them in the same way, Floyd wins hands down, this is not an insult to Chuck it's a recognition of ability.

Again you are only dreaming. You are assuming that Mayweather is going to pick up on wrestling/grappling easy and I can guarantee you it isn't that easy. Nor is dealing with knees, elbows, clinch work, throws, etc. Floyd would be a fish out of water and though he is a top boxer, boxing does not happen in a MMA ring. Punching is different then boxing.

You just don't get it. Every sport has their pros and they train to the caliber of that sport. Chuck is a pro and an elite fighter in MMA. Floyd is a pro and elite in boxings. These are two different things and you cannot compare the two. Floyd can box and that is what he does best. Chuck can punch and punch hard to knock people out from every angle. Chuck can wrestling and defends the takedown. Chuck can kick, knee and elbow though rarely has to as he usually knocks his opponents down with such an unorthodox style. Floyd is no where near as rounded as Chuck and even if he started training these he would never reach Chuck's level. He would be a 2nd rate MMA fighter at best. And if Chuck went into boxing he would have as difficult at time as he is not a boxer … he is a striker … two different things.

I think if you want to talk about apples then talk about apples. If you want to talk about oranges then talk about oranges. Yes they are both fruits but they are different fruits. Don't try to pass an apple off as an orange, I just don't buy it.

_________________________"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Quote:how can you compare MMA such as the UFC of even being remotely old enough that it is inbred in our culture?

Yes exactly this actually makes my point, one of the reasons you don't have truly elite athletes in MMA has alot to do with numbers. In 10 years when you are looking at fighters, think back to this debate we are having and do a comparison, I think you will find the quality of the fighters has jumped quite a bit. Why? well the sport will evolve but with all the extra competiton in the ring, the odds of one of the truly special athletes finding his way into MMA increases.

Quote: You are assuming that Mayweather is going to pick up on wrestling/grappling easy and I can guarantee you it isn't that easy

The problem with this point, is it clearly shows you do not understand my argument. Train the same means from the beginning not picking it up now.

The other point I am trying to make, that I guess I have not been clear about, is you cannot train the things that seperate great athletes from the elite professionals.

You must train and be dealt a genetic royal flush to make that leap.

The altheltes that have this "gift" are not choosing MMA, at least not yet.

I am not going to post anymore, because we are going in circles and arguing 2 different things. I am in no way arguing a boxer vrs MMA in a fight, I am simply stating the best athletes in the world have not yet begun to fight MMA bouts.

I doubt they ever will, there will always be better safer ways to make money, but the quality will make a fast asent over the next 10 years.