Pittsburgh sports talk with the Trib columnist

Wakeup Call: Do NOT let players off hook

>> This was what I saw of the second pitch once I took my seat in the PNC Park press box at 7:05 p.m. …

Quite a sight, huh?

You should have heard the place.

Only the Pittsburgh Pirates could do this. Only one franchise.

From 16 games over to .500, from re-bonding a city with its baseball team to ripping that bond to the point that a mid-September game — with actual playoff implications — could draw so few. And so rightly.

There’s nothing more tormenting than having hopes raised, then dashed. Except maybe having hopes raised, then dashed twice. The Pirates have lost 10 of their past 12 games and — get this — have a worse record than the Astros since early August. And they’re at .500. Again.

To my mind, as a lifelong follower of the franchise, this season is the worst out of the 20 to this point. In 1997, nothing was expected, everything a bonus. In 2010, they lost 105. Still not as excruciating as this.

What a scene.

>> There’s plenty of blame to go around, as I repeated in the Wednesday column. But the players have thoroughly embarrassed themselves in these first two games against the Brewers.

Clint Hurdletried to tiptoe with his criticism by pointing out that Marco Estrada was being seen for the third time and wasn’t throwing anything special. His batters failed to square up meaty fastballs.

I won’t tiptoe: That’s two disgraceful performancs in a row in front of paying Pittsburghers.

People will deserve to be fired if this season ends this way, and the players, of course, can’t be fired. But don’t — I’ll say it again — let these players off the hook.

>> I’ll save the rest for our weekly chat, which is today at noon as always.

By all means, let’s not let the players off the hook. But going back to your recent work, let’s not forget who assembled this team, who teaches it, especially those who have been around long to be attributable to the present regime (by no means excusing the Littlefield and Bonifay reigns of error).

There is a cultural problem here, that I have discerned spending time around some of the individuals in question. I want to share some of what I’ve seen and been told, though I wish some of those directly involved would go on the record (since some have nothing fo lose).

Your piece of a few days back captured issues I have seen firsthand, and heard from former players. What I heard was reflective of systemic problems with priorities (team-building with consultants, core strength training, lectures, etc.) that took time away from on-field drills. As for the drills, there were complaints about them being formulaic, with inconsistent quality of training and a lack of effort expended toward making sure players kept doing something until they did it right.

The more ephemeral criticisms centered around “too many (development) guys tapping on f******* computers and iPhones and not enough time doing hands-on training.” Also, too much “hairy fairy consultant ****,” presumably at the expense of hands-on training. I heard variations on these same criticisms from multiple individuals, and what I saw of Kyle Stark and his people at Pirate City was pretty uninspiring, inasmuch as they didn’t interact with players as much as with each other and their devices. There was a hell of a lot of standing around by players listening to lectures I couldn’t hear. The other criticism feeds off of the SEALS stuff. The military mindset is very much apparent if you spend time around them, and more so in the telling of people who have spent more time than I have. It has been described as offputting by people, and a lot of players appear not be responding well to it, according to its critics.

The other universal criticism of Stark is that he is not nearly knowledgeable enough about the actual game (as opposed to the theoretical game) to do his job effectively. Two former players told me that they approached Frank Coonelly about jobs with the organization. Both were sent to Stark. One former player told me Stark was an “obnoxious, disrespectful little ****.” My bias having met him is that this captures it quite well and applies to some of his staff as well (one of his direct reports laughed condescendingly at the idea that Kris Medlen would amount to anything, because he is too small, something I find amusing as I write this an hour or so after he tied Whitey Ford’s record of 21 consecutive starts resulting in a win for the Braves).

The other player was more specific (and riotously funny). He met Stark, who asked the guy what his experience was in baseball. He rattled off his years playing and coaching at several levels. Stark looked at (and tapped) on his laptop, asking: “Who did you play for? I haven’t heard of you.” The gentleman pointed to the wall behind them and said, “That’s me right there.” It was a large reproduction of one of the three world series celebrations since 1960 (left vague to protect the irate). Stark appeared not to “give a **** ” as it was described to me. Neither player believes Coonelly bothered to tell Stark who he was interviewing, which is borne out by the descriptions of the incidents.

There is a whiff of hypocrisy here. They talk about legacy, they bring these guys to spring training, put them in the dugout, but when they ask for a job they’re shuffled off to Stark. Now, it may well be that the individuals are not good potential coaches. To me, however, the going on and on about legacy and history, juxtaposed with the way they treat people who were important to the franchise, is telling. Several people told me that Clint Hurdle has had more to do with stressing the legacy than the others.

In sum, Neal Huntington’s team may be getting better, they may suck, but nobody I know (myself included) thinks they have any ability to relate to human beings very well. In my view, absent that ability (or a willingness to subcontract that part of your job to others who do have it), you’ve already failed. No matter how good your “metrics” are, you’ll ultimately wear out your welcome. My own impressions, outside of a select few people, is that this is a soulless, corporate operation that just happens to be in the business of baseball. That starts at the top, and that is why I don’t hold out a lot of hope.

DK: All I’ll add is that I can vouch for this individual’s veracity as someone close enough to make the above comments.

Oh, and I’ll add that Huntington promoted Stark and Greg Smith last winter to the titles of assistant GM.

I think it is obvious they have quit and they’re playing out the string. You would think that they’d be sick of losing to Milwaukee. I know I am. You’d think they’d be embarrassed by back-to-back pathetic efforts, but chances are they’ll fail to show up again tomorrow. You’d think they’d be sick of hearing and reading the disgust fans now have for this team. But no, they just go on hitting one groundout after another or swinging through another pitch for yet another strikeout waiting to collect their next paycheck and finish the year.

If this is what you’re going to do again next year, don’t even bother to come back. Just move the franchise and let some other saps deal with this garbage.

This season is definitely the worst. I’m having a really hard time with this one. Written many times about how .500 was a foregone conclusion, and that anything close would be a mammoth collapse. And it has been. This is rough. And though you put the fork in them a while ago, the math wouldn’t let me do the same.

Until tonight.

The fat lady has sung. And it sounded like an obnoxious horn blower in a nearly empty stadium. Seriously, that person needs shoved off the Clemente Bridge. Was an a$$. But I digress. This team went from something providing hope and pride and Zoltan camaraderie has ended with a team that might be, right now, as bad as any of them. A team with so much to play for that looks like it doesn’t even want to be bothered with having to actually play the games.

Okay, some good news: the Cubs definitely can’t pass us in the standings!

More positivity: if memory serves, didn’t we finish 4th in 1989?

A great post by BVB, but I don’t know what to make of it. I have no doubt all of it is true, but a) a lot of it presupposes that ****ish behavior by the FO is causing players to tune out and perform poorly and b) that the same couldn’t be said about every FO.

I’ve met my share of baseball people, and they were all ****s. That’s just baseball people. And the computer/iPad thing … Walk into Chick-fil-a and they’re staring into iPads too! Welcome to 2012. I have a hard time believing other franchises are still relying on notebooks.

I’ve been calling for Huntington’s ouster for years and getting rid of him is the right thing for the franchise. But all these infrastructure problems didn’t stop the team from going 16 over as of July. I understand Dejan’s point of how the lack of depth has hurt this team … I just disagree with the primary problem. No team’s depth can solve slumps by ALL of its superstars. Minor leagues don’t readily replace superstars.

All of these points would be more valid if the team BARELY missed winning the division and Cutch was still hitting .360 and James McDonald had an ERA under 3.00.

Great post by BarryVonBonilla. and JoeBucco, I’m sick and tired of hearing that as an excuse to the struggles the Pirates have had. It’s pretty pathetic hearing people directly correlate ONE EVENT with a month and a half long string of struggles (just like the 19 inning game loss last year). Not ONE EVENT undermines a “collapse”, it’s a multitude of reasons. Correlation does not imply causation!

If you honestly believe that scenario did this, then you should turn in your hypothetical baseball fandom card. Look back at the scenario before you criticize it….that closed out the game since Chapman was in, so the Pirates had NO SHOT at retaliation that game. Next game, in a supposed “must win game”, the team leader and ace in Burnett was on the hill for the start. Harrison gets plunked in the and both benches are warned for that. What did you want happen, Burnett plunk someone and get tossed in the 1st inning and then have the bullpen burn out and pitch the entire 9 innings? I am a firm believer in unwritten baseball rules because I went by that book when I coached 15-16 year olds this summer. But it’s asinine to believe that one moment led to all of this.The struggles have been a mixture of poor decision making from coaching and players, lack of offense, poor defense, bad execution, and what was the strength of the team coming into the season and for majority of the year; THE BULLPEN.

As a 23 year-old fan who has always muddled through the misery of bad baseball, I got the taste of what good–check that, great baseball felt like. Celebrating the wins, watching the out-of-town scores, the pride and the passion…even the Zoltan (which I couldn’t stand) was incredible. The team spirit and bonding the players had with the fans was unlike any I had experienced…it was amazing-it was something I’ve never even understood the feeling of. The day-to-day excitement of a pennant race, what ecstasy it was! Th streak was a foregone conclusion, I was thinking…NLCS!? The best part was I wasn’t crazy to honk that optimistic!

…now…I don’t even know what to think. I feel like my Pirates-fan soul has been ripped out and left for dead. I cant even watch the games on TV. I only tuned in for half of tonight’s mess before giving up. The worst part, the absolute worst-was the hope I felt–the taste of REAL BASEBALL-a pennant race! …all a sham.

I bought into it. All of it. I almost feel betrayed, if that’s even possible. I don’t know. It’s hard to put into words. I hope–and I’m serious in saying this–that SOMEDAY I will get to feel the atmosphere of October baseball–because I’m not sure I will. I always thought “we’ll get there eventually.” Now…I don’t even know.

Some will say I’m being rash, that this team has potential to improve next season. I reply “how?” How do you improve with this squad-SIXTEEN GAMES OVER isn’t safe!

Fantastic post by BVB. I, too, was holding out hope these past couple weeks. Surely playing teams (Cubs, Astros, Brewers) below them in the standings would re-light the fire. Make the players, coaches, everybody realize what a grand opportunity they could take hold of. The Dodgers, Cardinals, and even the Braves (for a short time) were playing poor baseball, too. But not only did my beloved Buccos, who were 63-47 on August 8, not take advantage of their situation, they basically threw in the towel. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought, with 52 games remaining, that they would play themselves back to .500. Never, EVER. And yet here we stand, looking at the rotting remains of a season gone bad. What type of team plays so well, raises so many expectations, only to take them away so quickly? A team that truly doesn’t care, from the players, to the coaches, to the front office. And you know what, if they don’t care, neither do I. GO STEELERS!!!

Thanks for the responses. To add a thought, it is hard to identify any one cause for the lack of progress. The dearth of good players is a good start, but my own suspicion is that there are institutional issues that need confronting along with the specific issues surrounding the performance of Smith and Stark. Littlefield and Creech had to go. But replacing people is a tricky business. As Lincoln famously said, “I can’t just fire McClellan. I need to hire somebody else. Who?”

From my own himdsight, I would not have hired Coonelly and Huntingon as replacements. Let’s hope that if Bob Nutting goes down this road again, he has already done the hard thinking about who, and is willing to hire people who are multi-dimensional than the robots who now run the store.

It’s literally like watching your dog die.
I cast my vote of blame squarely on Hurdles back.
I always appreciated his willingness to follow his gut and not “the book”. But
his instincts have failed him….miserably. When to pull a pitcher…who to bring in….when to bunt….when to hit and run….when to pitch out….who to pinch hit…….who’s in the line up……all of which are his decisions. The success of these decisions has been incredibly poor. Keep chomping on your gummed Clint….maybe someone will square the ball up tomorrow.

Cannot overlook the turnaround after the Reds series in early August. Cutch hit by a pitch with no retribution changed the psyche of the team. The Reds made a statement and the Pirates did nothing. They haven’t been the same since.

I was ecstatic in ’79. The early 90’s were fun. ’97 was a pleasant surprise to see a team with little talent, but a lot of heart. This year has been as disappointing as it can get, very cruel!!! Great post by BVB. The only player that has been CONSISTENT all year has been AJ Burnett.

I wish I wasn’t so loyal and could just switch teams to root for. My brother in law had a good idea, he told me to pick a favorite American League team and root for them and I wouldn’t have to root against my Pirates, so I decided he was right and went out and purchased a Kansas City Royals hat! Go Royals.

I don’t doubt anything you’re relaying here for a second, but I can’t view the coldness of the organization as anything but a secondary problem. The robots would look a lot better if they had computed something other than signing Bedard, Barajas & Barmes this offseason. Not to mention the well-documented draft misfires.

There may be a lot of distant personalities involved, but the primary concern for me is that those personalities are making poor decisions.

And wow, to think that players in the organization are complaining of a lack of on-field instruction is mind-boggling. Sadly, it explains a lot though.

Fantastic post BVB. Honestly, this management team lost me in those “7 minutes” on July 31, 2008. Having declined an offer of Cliff Lee and Kelly Shoppach the previous year, they traded Jason Bay for Brandon Moss, Craig Hansen, Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris.

I loved that article DK wrote back in ’08, and it turned out to be a premonition of things to come. Failure down the stretch when the pressure is on is the hallmark of this franchise under Coonelly and Huntington.

I really liked that post by BVB. I was all over this a LONG time ago, it’s sad that it’s been verified by someone much closer than I am. I’m just a stupid fan. It hurts, the losing HURTS, the constant sucking HURTS. Being a LAUGHINGSTOCK HURTS.

Yet Pirate management(other than Nutting, of all people) could care less, and it shows. You can tell Hurdle cares too, but that’s it. And SOME players. Jones, McCutchen, Burnett, Walker. And the guys too young to be steeped in losing.

Finally, blame where I feel it really needs to be placed at this time: the players.

I also appreciate the post by BVB. Great insight.
When people are hired in management I believe they have the right to run things the way the want. That is why they were hired. But, especially in baseball, you can see the results. You have to be able to either adjust/adapt your management style; or know that you can be replaced.

I agree that BVB has a many valid points. But using Ipads, Iphones, etc.. isn’t the problem. Cluelessness is .Which is something he pointed out very well. Great post BVB. Another problem this team has is lack of talent. Many players played over their heads in June and July. In April, many people expected another 90-100 loss season if you will remember. But another problem most people seem to ignore is many of these players seem to have Tin Man Syndrome. No heart. The Reds beaning of McCutchen and other players point this out. Also, the night Harrison got beaned and Burnett was the only player to come over the rail says A LOT. A teammate got beaned and no one came to his aid. The team leader came out to have his back and the rest of the players stayed in the safety of the dug out. A little adversity hit, and they fell to pieces. Just my view on the subject.

Regime fans not that long ago were telling me it would be virtually impossible to finish below .500.
Lesson learned – no level is too low with inept mgt. & puny payrolls

As far as the blame game goes….. Guess who is at fault? Not the players and manager who helped this team over achieve for so long….. THE REGIME!

And i have to laugh @ Nutting for talking to the press about his disappointment in the season & correcting things going forward. Hey, Bob … How ’bout looking in the mirror & raising payroll so your not sending out pitchers with 11 total innings of experience in the middle of a ” playoff” chase???
+1

Huntington’s contract was extended last September thru 2014 with a club option in 2015. If he decides to whack NH, Nutcase will have to eat 2 years of his contract.

I have no idea how much Brainiac NH makes but, how many more bad contracts can this organization continue to eat? Nutsack will consult with the Bucco version of Foster Brooks (Frank “The Tanked” Coonelly) to ensure the right business decision is made in a timely fashion, I am sure.

The longer these guys are around, the more they appear to be like the 3 Stooges.

Please, share more if you have it. The biggest downfall of Moneyball/Saberbabble is the growing inability to deal with actual people on a personal basis. No WAR value can ever tell you what’s inside a person’s head or their stomach.

The fact that Stark didn’t know who a former World Champion Pirate was speaks volumes.

Was there last night. Yep, our group commented, too, about the small crowd. We talked about the excitement of being at the ball-yard in June and July. It really is hard to get your hands wrapped around this. All thjis being said, to get a bit personal for a second: My wife and I lost our son two years ago. Obviously, nothing…and I mean nothing…compares to what we went through. I have been a lifelong baseball and Pirates fan and this sort of has been good therapy, but, still, their freefall and collapse and frustrations….nope…nothing compares. Sports and lots of others things in life we get upset about…it’s minor.

TJA, how terrible for you and your wife. Appreciate you sharing. Keeping things in perspective is definitely a good thing.
Baseball is a business. As such, it should be run like one: in a productive way.
When that fails, I feel the fans are being made a**es of. That is wrong.

I am demoralized beyond belief and adequate words fail me. I love baseball—always have. My husband and I met on a diamond. My son played into college. My favorite “toy” was a baseball mitt, not a Barbie Doll – I still carry said mitt in my car in case a game breaks out. The 2012 Pittsburgh Pirates have ripped the baseball heart right out of my very soul. I don’t know if I’ll ever recover from this. I do know I will NEVER forgive them for it, though. NEVER!

I can’t watch any of the games, but I’ll look at Gameday like a dummy. And watch this blog during the games. And we all know, nobody is going to get fired. We’ll be sitting through all this quackery next Spring, looking at the same stuff, thinking the same things. After all, this is the BMTIB and BMTIS. And we’re all Pirate fans. Some of us may never see another winning season in our lifetimes, but we’ll be watching.

Thank you, Jandy. We appreciate it. Yep, keeping it all in perspective is indeed what we have learned. Also, to answer your question, Jandy, I will more than likey stay involved with the team for the final 14 games. What the heck?

Make no mistake, the effort of the players who seem to have given up, and the awful sense of inevitability of losing that come over on even the radio broadcasts make it difficult to listen. And, I know this is merely a side issue, but I echo the sentiments of the person who wishes to see the last of “horn guy”. And I would like to add the noise from the fans who are striving to emulate little girl noises. What a bizarre accompaniment to the disaster on the field.

You really have to be a masochist to watch or listen in these final days.

Second side note: Hey Barry, are you trying to say that there are no “people persons” operating in our minor league system. If that is the case, it’s hard to figure why the organization would have gotten rid of Lacee who really didn’t strike me as a warm human being. I thought she fit in quite well with NH’s BMTIB. I think NH’s lasting legacy might me a disdain for Sabre-metrics in general. Unfortunately that might be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

We posted at the same time…your ENTIRE heart has been ripped out—absolutely nothing compares to what you and your family have endured. My “baseball heart” is insignificant in retrospect, of course. My whole heart goes out to you.

Jandy, we stopped watching a couple of weeks ago when the writing got bigger and bigger on the wall. Just couldn’t watch the mast sink lower and lower on the horizon. My Pirate info comes strictly from reading this blog. It’s all just awful.

As the Pirates are out of any post season discussion: Just for fun, who does anyone like to go deep into this years tournament? Looking at the standings, you already have two NL teams that have reached 90 wins and none yet in the AL. Seems the NL leaders have pulled far ahead of the 2nd place teams. Here’s a crazy thought: How about a Washington/Baltimore World Series? It’s fun to discuss.

Fat Jimmy….I’m with you. It is amazing that this cold and callous management team had us 16 games over .500 just 44 games ago.

I wonder how much better we would be today, without the collapse of JMac (Kyle Stark’s fault), Karstens’ injuries (NH’s fault for sure) and Walker’s two injuries (Drew’s fault, without a doubt). And it HAS to be Greg Smith’s fault that Pedro is so inconsistent and our bullpen collapse and AMac couldn’t hit .370 all year long.

I am NOT a Hurdle fan (he’s cost us a few games, too), but at some point the players have to take ownership.

That would be a fun series to watch. Some of those guys would get some well-deserved exposure and we wouldn’t have to sit through the glowing accounts of how wonderful the Yankees are and how CC Sabathia is the greatest thing since sliced bread and on and on. Thank God, the Red Sox had a losing season. We can forget about them for a while, too.

Expectations are allowed to change. Just because we would have been happy with a .500 season in March doesn’t mean we should accept that as a successful season now. Baltimore was projected by most “experts” to lose 100 games. Those fans had no expectations. Should they be happy now if they lose every remaining game and fall out of contention?

@Ross – the Pirates had no shot of retaliation in that game? Really? So they were required by law to just sit there and watch it happen, even as Cutch was hopping around wanting to tear someone’s head off?

Sorry, but you are completely wrong. And no, it wasn’t that event that caused the collapse. It was that event that showed what thias team was made of. And what they are made of is what caused the collapse. The event exposed it. And yes, one thing like that most certainly can cause the outcome we’ve seen. When you are around co-workers all day all year, things get tense. And then somethnig like this happens, and the guy who has had you on his back all year long needs you to have his, and you don’t… well, that ABSOLUTELY has an impact, and it DID have an impact.

Walker was a bust, but also the #2 player, ahead of Lincoln? Methinks you’re exaggerating a bit. And I don’t think anyone is saying the farm isn’t better today than it was 6 years ago. That’s a pretty low benchmark.

As a “lifer” who has witnessed three World Series Champs, including being in the bleachers for game 7 of the ’60 series, I hate what has become of my beloved Buccos. I really hate it. It’s being run by a bunch of bean counters, apparently, who have no understanding of the psychology of baseball, or the fundamentals of the sport. when we talk about winners, look at Derek Jeter, who was on the field with his team, even with a bad ankle. Our guys seem to stub a toe and miss a month of playing time. Yes, also, to the beaning incident. While AJ was ready to rumble, the others cowered in the dugout like a bunch of wimps. I wonder what AJ thought when he looked around and was the only guy out there?

There’s obviously something seriously wrong with this organization, and it’s easy to say it starts with Nutting. Frankly, I think he cares but doesn’t know enough about baseball to know what to do. I’m sure if he agreed to meet with a group of the fans on this blog or the other one, he could learn a lot and make better choices since there’s a wealth of baseball wisdom here.

I’ll continue to follow our guys, but I can’t watch the games right now. It’s too painful. I tend to peek at the scores. I just hope Nutting makes the necessary changes after the season. Go Bucs!

Lucky – Yes, it is so wonderful to see the BoSox out of things. Now, if the Yankess would just falter in the final two weeks, the Baseball Gods would do us a favor. I got to see the Nationals play in person in July and they are a pretty good team. It would be great exposure for them, as you suggest.

@BarryVAnBonilla……Kudos to you for sharing an insight most of us dont know

What I dont get is how most of the fans and even DK didnt see this coming. When this team was 15+ games over, did you look at this roster and see their level of performance as being expected given the roster? I couldnt believe that this roster had one of the best records in baseball from June 1 through mid-July How many of these guys could start for the playoff teams? Not many. Now I cant sit here and say I predicted a losing record but its something I mentioned to friends and family as something that wouldnt surprise me. They’re the Pirates – its what they do and until Nuttng cleans house ( I mean everyone from Coonelly down to Hurdle and scouts) I wont give a damn about them and they wont have any chance for success with these guys leading the organization.

Ultimately, the best case scenario is Nutting selling the team to an owner with deep pocket and who is wiling to spend money on legitimate upgrades – not the Travis Snyder’s of the world. When Headley is bypassed and could have been had for not a king’s ransom and they get Snyder, how much more obvious can it get folks?

If someone mentioned this before, please forgive me repeating it. This collapse could not have come at a worse time. It started in mid August when I received my season ticket renewal forms in the mail. I let the package sit on the table, and it sat … and sat … and sat. Through each series loss in August, it sat. Through the 7 game losing streak, it sat. Finally, I threw it away earlier this week. I wonder how many other season ticket holders did the same. How many others who had valid hopes and valid expectations of AT LEAST a winning season. Yeah, if they can’t hold onto 16 games over 0.500 …..

In July, I couldn’t WAIT for my renewal package to come! This past Monday, I threw it away.

I will follow every game here, and throughout mlb the rest of the season when time permits. For years I have followed 3 teams. I figure each season, one of the three will have a year worth following. The teams are the Red Sox, Astros, and Bucs. Well the Boston Valentine’s season has been miserable since st. We all know where the Astros are at. So that left the Pirates to give me something to look forward to. Oh well.
And this is the last season before we go to the new ridiculus interleague play everyday. And even this years playoff system is messed up with no plans for a playoff if two or more teams tie for the wild card second spot. And my understanding is the wild card winner gets two games at home before they travel to the home park of the team they are playing. Does that make any sense. I will follow all the games until Nov.2 because it’s baseball, and there’s nothing better.

AW…at the time of that writing, Walker was still a catcher, but still had potential. At the time of the writing he was thought of as ‘still has the talent, but it hasn’t translated onto the field yet’. He hit .277 in 2007, but only .242 in 2008.

GREAT posts today! Wow! Great posts! So glad that DK is around and we all have a tool to communicate our thoughts!!!

My thoughts…
Foo, you make a great point.
This team, this organization is definitely going in the right direction. I don’t think anyone could argue with that.
Of course they made bad moves and things could be better. Every team can say that. They also didn’t trade the future for one year. I am grateful for that!

Call me crazy but I think that the players choked when they started watching the scoreboard. I think the pressure was too much for this young ball club. How do you explain the fact that all facets have been affected. This team is playing tight. Just like last year.

I think that’s how some of these teams (that are coming from behind in the standings) are playing well and are catching up. These teams are playing lose and they get on a role.

It’s all about learning and going through the experience. Some things can’t be taught.

Just my thoughts. I’m still watching because I am holding out hope that they will get through this struggle and finish strong. Who the hell else am I going to root for? This has been my team since I could walk. That’s a long time ago…

Lee, I just don’t see the logic of the people wanting to blame the collapse on “fundamentals”, trade deadline deals, the owner, and all of these other people who affect the franchise but not at such a micro level that talented guys can all start to suck in unison like they have.

I’m trying to figure out where Neil Walker fits into this. Go look at his game-by-game numbers. His slump/injury has largely coincided with our collapse. Does that mean that he is extremely important to this team? Does that mean that having a .800 OPS guy at 2B is extremely important to this team? Or does it mean that the Pirates really need that “other” big bat beyond Cutch, Jones and Alvarez?

As you know, these star players dont just come out of the wood work. That’s the problem.There are no guarantees in baseball. How many top prospects don’t ever make it to the majors. How many superstar free agents don’t pan out for a team. I think we are on the right track. Marte should be the next great player (hopefully).

There are plenty of players that have developed under this development team. Look at McHenry for example. He has taken his game to another level since he got here. Sure he has more to do to get better but he has really shown improvement. Burnett sucked in NY. Why couldn’t they help him turn it around? He has turned it around here. Jones has improved. Walker. Cutch. Alverez (we wanted him gone). Several examples.

The Pirates are being criticized for this. The Pirates were mocked for signing guys from India. If I told you that Kyle Stark was also having players take ballet classes, would your initial reaction be to mock and criticize that, too?

Maybe not, because most Pittsburghers are very familiar with a certain revered athlete who was known to study ballet. Lynn Swann was graceful. He made big plays in big moments. He was a champion. Was that because he studied ballet? Who knows? But no one would criticize the tactic because it was successful.

If we as fans criticize unorthodox tactics such as signing Indians, Navy SEAL training, ballet lessons and training and recruiting in Latin America, then we’re going to get what we’ve gotten for some time: a bland, unimaginative and unsuccessful organization. Any organization that does not have the freedom to try new things — and fail doing them from time to time — is not going to prosper.

Again, lots of things to criticize the FO on, that isn’t one of them, in my book.

Fat Jimmy, I don’t think the FO was being criticized for bringing in the Navy Seals per se. It was more that people thought that more time should be spent on the basics before worrying about stuff like that. (this team has made stupid mistskes over and over and over again – stuff Little Leaguers don’t do).

@89
Actually, one out of two of the signings from India appears to be a keeper.

I have no problem with them scheduling the SEAL training. However, that staff has to use it. From personal experience, training that isn’t reinforced is useless. You attend it, the boss doesn’t apply it or refer to it again, and you move on the old way. You have to tell your people why they are receiving this training, you have to show how it is relevant to what they are doing, and you have to show (by your behavior) that you believe in its worth AND that you are applying it in your work.

BVB – like everyone else, I applaud your post and thank you for sharing it, GREAT stuff.

But the core of the problem to me was stated by PetroSteel, and is something I’ve been saying for the past month now – NERVES. When the bullets started flying, they let the pressure overwhelm them instead of rising to the occassion. We should all be thankful they chose baseball as a career path and not the military.

Frustrates me to hear so many people say “this is natural regression, they were playing over their heads!” Sure, a little regression was to be expected, but they have totally collapsed primarily because when they step tot he plate, you can see the sawdust falling to the ground because virtually every single player is gripping the bat so tight. FEAR, as DK summed it up in last week’s chat.

Cutch has struggled too, but he’s still an MVP candidate. Pedro has 29 homers and is hitting close to .250. Garrett Jones is pusing 25 homers and still hitting close to .280. There is legit talent on this team – I cant wait to see Marte play a full season next year. But as Fat Jimmy pointed out, maybe the Walker injury was just too much to overcome.

If it was me, and it would be a REALLY tough call – cause Hurdle has helped changed the culture here, but his in-game decisions (if he pulls JMAC v Headley back in early August when we blew that 7-1 lead…and leaves Wandy in to face navarro in Cincy last week – maybe we are still alive) – and more importantly that he was the leader for back-to-back nearly historic collapses – I would fire him. I’d actually fire him today after this embarrassment v. the Brewers at home. Let Bannister run out the string and see if he can “manage them” to a winning record.

Agreed. Some prospects succeed and others don’t. However, the pertinent criticism of the 2009 draft is that the prospects in which they invested well over slot money have not panned out and show little signs of success. Yes, you have Victor Black, Brock Holt, and Phil Irwin (and maybe Tony Sanchez, if he gets his early batting eye back), but the big money went to the prep pitchers — a good chunk of the $51M that seems to have burnt to ashes.

This team collapsed because
1. J-Mac
2. Bullpen forgot they were good.
3. Karstens injury
4. Lack of any offense in the 7-8-9 spot all year
5. Every single that was hit against them was an automatic double
6. Inconsistent offense
7. Lack of depth
8. Lack of veteran leadership outside of A.J.
9. Midseason trades for offense provided nothing
10. Horrendous baserunning mistakes

Not reasons for the collapse:
1. SEAL training
2. Use of iPads/Androids/Kindles/Laptops/Abaci
3. Skeet shooting trips

I wll say that Huntington doesn’t really have a track record of performing in the clutch when things come down to the wire. See: Last two years of team performance, trade of Bay in final seconds of deadline, handling of Pedro contract in final seconds, handling of Appel deal at end of deadline, Miguel Sano handling in final seconds, etc. etc.

Not exactly coming through as a clutch hitter, so to speak. Time to try someone a little more cool under pressure and with a track record of success instead of failure.

While I agree that the Seals, the skeet shooting trip, the laptops and the other sideshows are not themselves to blame for the failure to draft high-quality talent, the overall picture is one of an organization so obsessed with form and process that something appears to have bern lost in the shuffle. You could overlook some of this if Greg Smith could draft well, or Neal Huntington actually evaluate major league talent, but in the absence of that and the lack of transparency in the organization’s operations leaves you with fragments to support an argument best made simply: inadequate drafting, suspect player development and a whole lot of optics that reflect poorly on the organization’s integrity and competence. With the losing continuing, they’re left exposed to criticism of everything they do. All of this side stuff would matter less if there were countervailing signs to encourage, but aside from a couple of rising pitchers and much younger prospects, there is little to show for five years of form over function.

I really think folks have given up on Tony Montana Sanchez too early. This kid is better defensively than Barajas right now. Probably offensively, too. Maybe his act is a little old, but he can grow up. He may not be an All-Star right off, but he has the tools to succeed. He upped his average in AAA to .233 and hit better at the end of the season. Pitchers seem to like to throw to him. If nothing else, a solid backup to Fort or someone, as Rod becomes a coach and team father figure. JMHO, but I’ve seen him in his raw days and was impressed then.

“Changed the culture” is nothing more than saying he’s more likeable than the other guy, IMO. It’s a soft compliment that you can’t quantify, so it can’t be disputed.

When I hear that said, it sounds to me like people are saying “yeah, this guy isn’t the greatest manager, loses you games, but he’s really really nice, so I still like him”. There’s nothing wrong with that.

@Petro

Have you seen Hurdle talk lately? I honestly feel bad for the man.

Sorry, but I don’t care what he or “the culture” was like in Spring Training. I care about what has gone on for the last month. Nothing has changed.

“You could overlook some of this if Greg Smith could draft well, or Neal Huntington actually evaluate major league talent…”

That in a nutshell describes everything. There is a track record, and it isn’t good. That alone should be the reason they are replaced. It is a performance-based industry, and they’ve done a terrible job at both drafting and evaluating major league talent. They gotten a few right, but its more the old saying of a blind squirrel finding a nut every now and then. Not nearly enough to consider them skilled and talented.

I know that I’ll try to catch as many games between now and the end of the season. I still will be there on the 28th to see the Reds game. I will still wear my Pirates cap with pride, even though this team has been a hugh disappointment since August. Its hard to talk about them right now without getting mad. I’ll get home from work today and put the game on. Hopefully, today’s effort will be different from the one we have witnessed the last several weeks.

I don’t know how many people will say this, but I upgraded my package from this years 10 game pack to a 20 game pack next year. Always hoping that things will be different. But with the current FO in place, that might be hard to obtain since NH seems he can find legiment ML talent for this team.

That muffled sound you hear in the background is “Taps”. It appears to be getting louder and clearer as the Pirates crash and burn their way to the final game of the season for the 2nd year in a row. Rhetorical question: What’s worse, 20 consecutive losing seasons or 2 straight years of having your hopes raised only to realize that nothing has really changed? Same old Pirates. Losers once again. If anyone thinks that this team has what it takes to finish above .500, I want to know what drug you’re on. It must be VERY hallucinogenic!!

I commented on yesterday’s post about the myth of getting guaranteeed ‘hits’ when drafting in the first four picks of the draft. Turns out there is only a 40% success rate in even getting a contributor at the major league level when drafting in one of the first 4 spots.

And if you look at the Pirates 2008 draft compared to other teams, it is a glowing success. If 2009 turns out to have no impact player, than its still a 50% success rate in this FO’s first 2 drafts. Hardly an utter failure.

Does anyone have comparison’s to other FO’s that shows that the Pirates FO is at the bottom of the list for the 2008-09 drafts? I would settle for 1 to start with.

Jandy, “lack of fundamentals” is a convenient crutch argument. The team had all of the same lacking fundamentals when it went 16 games over .500. Not to mention, many of the players on this team didn’t come up through the Pirates minor league system.

In JoeBucco’s post above, he listed the top 10 reasons for the collapse. He missed a couple important ones, so I’ve edited his list below:

DK: Speaking only for my own citing of the fundamentals, mine has been specifically targeted at the minor leagues, not the Pittsburgh team. The only references to the parent Pirates in this context have been to recently recalled prospects, plus Josh Harrison and Alex Presley.

As a former Pirate employee and current coach, I used to call the front office to give them a heads up on players who were worth a look. The past regimes would take my call and in some instances do their due diligence. I tried twice over the past three years, once on a million dollar signee of theirs that in my estimation was a mistake for off field elements (he is still in the system but vastly underperforming) and another player who subsequently signed as a free agent with an organization regarded as having one of the top five farm systems. My sense is that they felt I had nothing to offer. That oversight may cost them over a million dollars in a bad investment and a missed opportunity. Hopefully the signee works out, but when someone proffers a scouting report for me at my level, my philosophy is that I may glean something of value no matter what the source.

Fat Jimmy, I stated the bulk of the reaction here to the Seals being called in. I also happen to pretty much agree with it. The fielding errors ane baserunning errors this team commits ALL TOO often is ridiculous. Even with key players having issues, if your team can play BASIC baseball, you’re still in the game. I can’t count the number of games we lost by a run or two because of these very issues.
Again, just my opinion. And I also agree that there is more to this collapse than just “lack of fundamentals”.

Was saving up money all summer to travel over to the burgh and watch the Pirates in the playoffs. Found out my 13 yr old needed surgery. After reading BVB’s post, I would rather gove my money to the DR.’s anyway!

For those who will be watching the Pirates the rest of the season, the Pirates just promoted a new MLB app on their facebook page – Predict the Play. Seems like this app would have been more fun in July than now.

Anytime a team has the never seen before level of futility the Nutting Pirates have seen, EVERYTHING is going to be second guessed and criticized….. as it should be.
Shooting, Military training, etc are all fun things to do… in the offseason or in training camp. Not in the midst of a (percieved) playoff race when the team can barely put their jersey on correctly and tie their shoes.
——–
For the poster mentioning what a crap shoot the draft is, that is EXACTLY why I’ve been asking why everyone is applauding this ridiculous notion that relying on the draft so heavily is a good one!

Sorry, lost the header to that last one. Just going through the first few rounds of the past few Huntington drafts. It’s easy to pay the what if game, especially with a guy like Mike Trout instead of Tony Sanchez, but there are a lot of whiffs in this really short list. Not to mention the late round gems that happen every now and then.

I don’t know how you can own up to this list above and still feel you deserve a job.

FWIW – I have a team of 30 people working on a high pressure, high profile, high budget project right now. Very intenese, and while we all get along pretty well, everyone has their moments. A few weeks ago, when the team was all in town together, I took them to a place to play paintball, where we went and beat the heck out of each other. Had nothing to do with building e-commerce websites. And one guy took quite a shot right to his dome.

If my project collapes and totally bombs, will everyone look back on that as the reason why we tanked?

@Roberto – yep, I know. I didn’t like to dig that deep. It was just a high level ‘what if’ and more a reflection of the stiffs we’ve taken while also saying who else was out there. Not saying we would have or should have known Kimbrel would be a stud. But would have been nice to nail even one of these 10 mistakes.

Mike Trout was drafted 25th in the 2009 1st round. Even the Angels didn’t think he was the best pick in that draft. The Angels drafted an outfielder, Randal Grichuk, who is a bust at the 24th pick. That’s right, Mike Trout was the 2nd best player at #24, according to the Angels.

That also means that 24 teams whiffed that year. Wow, I wonder how MLB will deal with all of the GM’s fired after that has been revealed.

I appreciate the quick look. No malice intended. But it tends to push forward this meme about the MLB draft that if you don’t have a star when you draft in the first 4 that you are failing. The facts just don’t bear it out.

I think P2 was right today. 2009 was a strategy that did not pan out. Settle for an easy signing, and then sign overslot guys. Some of them may still pan out, since they were HS’ers and would have just been finishing their JR year in college this past summer.

But Overall 2008 was a huge success when compared to other drafts that year. 6 of the players that the Pirates drafted in 2008 have reached the majors, including Pedro. Pedro sure seems like an impact guy to me. MVP or All-star? Not yet, but a chance in the future. But a MLB starter for sure.

@RF – Again, I know. And there were 4 others I listed there. Not saying anyone knew Trout was going to be the greatest player ever. But many felt Tony Sanchez was going to be a bust. And they were right. The guy only gets promoted to save face for the front office, even though he probably deserves to be in ‘A’ ball.

Please, please, please stop listing draft failures. It really hurts my head. Every team has many many many more draft failures then hits. It’s baseball. It’s how it works. You look at any years list of first and second round picks from the 90’s and early 2000’s and it is littered with guys you have never heard of. Every GM in the league would be fired based on missing on 5 out of 10 high draft picks.

Jandy – at this point in his life, Leyland doesn’t need the aggravation of working for a skinflint like Nutting. It would be awful watching the nightly sports news and seeing a 68 year old man sobbing almost every night.

If ownership gave Clint some talent, he’d be successful just like Leyland was when he was here. But, that hasn’t happened. Now it is looking like Clint will be lumped together with the likes of John Russell, Jim Tracy, Lloyd McClendon, & Gene Lamont.

I’m with you on that. Wonder what the Cardinals success rate is from the draft? Talent evaluation is and always has been the key and we suck at it. They don’t. Look at that lineup from year to year and they go out and get who they need that they don’t have stockpiled. Vast difference in quality of work.

Somebody quick put together a list for me that shows all the players we have picked up the last five years by trade or free agency that were all-stars previuosly. It should be a short list. I may have missed one but the list seems to be Burnett, Bedard and Wandy.

There is a reason for that. Good players get paid more then 4 million a year. Burnett and Wandy have been very good and I’m OK with taking a chance on Bedard to rebound. The problem is and always will be money spent on the Major League Baseball Team. Unless Nutting fires himself nothing will change.

From the 2010 draft, we’ve not had a single player make the majors yet.

Not one.

Not that it is much of a history yet, but the 2011 and 2012 drafts also have not netted a single major league appearance.

From the 2009 draft, we’ve had 55 at bats – 0 home runs and 3 RBI. All of these at bats belong to Brock Holt, our 9th rounder that year.

So essentially nothing from the last 4 drafts yet.

2008?

From players not names Pedro Alvarez, we have 1 HR and 17 RBI total from that draft class. Jordy has the homer, to go with his .196 career batting average, and 4 of the RBI’s. The rest go to Chase d’Arnaud (4) and Matt Hague (7). We also have 3 strikeouts by the one pitcher – ONE PITCHER – in the past 5 draft classes to pitch for the Pirates. Justin Wilson.

So get this…

In Neal Huntington’s CAREER as Pirates GM, he has drafted:

ZERO pitchers to ever win a game for this franchise. No wins, no losses, no saves – just 3 strikeouts.

Pedro Alvarez

Plus 1 Home Run, 17 RBI, and no hitter with so much as a .240 career batting average.

Yet, we set so many spending records on those drafts that MLB had to change to rules to keep things fair.

Sure, of course. But what we’re seeing here is zero production. Even from the much ballyhooed 2008 draft, where anyone – anyone – in that job would have taken Pedro.

Aside from Pedro, we’ve gotten close to literally nothing from the draft and develop phase of “the plan”. Flooding the system with talent is one thing. But eventually some of those guys need to get to Pittsburgh and help there.

And I’m not discounting the Taillon’s and Cole’s of the world, I believe they will help. But so far, what has Huntington done to show even a glimmer of hope that he knows what he is doing?

My head just exploded. Literally all over the place. I can’t take it anymore. 3 out of 4 high draft picks are bust. The normal progression for anybody not drafted in the early rounds is 1 year at each level. That is 4 years. You can really only judge 2008 which was as good as any team and 2009 which is bad, but it was for a lot of teams.

My post was not intended to address any draft failure per se, but to illustrate a new culture whereby no one outside of the player development department can add to their base of knowledge or is not qualified to do so. This was to further illustrate BVB’s insights and that my experiences with the new regime are indicative of a philosophical or cultural change within the front office.

Somebody quick put together a list for me that shows all the players we have picked up the last five years by trade or free agency that were all-stars previuosly. … The problem is and always will be money spent on the Major League Baseball Team. Unless Nutting fires himself nothing will change.

It’s easy math

More Money = Better Players

Better Players = Better Team

*************************

Hey, if guys that used to be All Stars and get paid a lot of money are your qualifications for great pick ups, then I’m certain the Dodgers have more than a few guys they’d be happy to offload … I mean, trade.

“But what we’re seeing here is zero production. Even from the much ballyhooed 2008 draft, where anyone – anyone – in that job would have taken Pedro.”

In your first two sentences, you contradicted yourself by saying NH has gotten zero production, contradicted yourself by saying “anyone” would’ve picked Pedro when you previously said Posey should’ve been the choice, and completely ignored the fact that history proves it is far from a lock to get a star in the first few picks.

Dejan repeatedly has criticized Huntington for not acquiring both more depth and more impact offense at the trade deadline and has denied it had anything to do with money, citing Bob Nutting authorizing the Rodriguez trade.

I can only imagine this means he feels Huntington should’ve not traded for Wandy and instead used that money on hitting.

Seems odd for a guy who has written “It’s all about the pitching…always.”

I don’t disagree that the money has to be used correctly. I was just pointing out that when picking up players that make more money NH has done a decent job. It should be noted the Pirates didn’t take on much of those contracts and that is the only reason they had been green lighted by Nutting.

You got to at least have the money to spend. NH has not been given that money. Trade for Pence is what I kept hearing at the trade deadline. Was that even an option for NH. I’m guessing no because of Pence’s salary. That is not on him but instead on Nutting.

I’m still trying to figure out why we started a pitcher with 7 ML relief appearances, while leaving (perhaps) our most consistent starter when healthy in the bullpen until the 6th inning. Does a team with hopes of a playoff spot (no matter how slim) use a key mid-September game to get a look at a prospective starting pitcher? Especially with an admittedly now-healthy veteran ready to go to the mound? I just get the impression NH made that call….either that or CH is panicking more than even I had imagined…

I truly do not understand how Dejan can openly question whether Huntington even had the chance to trade for Headley, yet still criticize him for not doing it.

I truly do not understand how he can openly question whether or not money was a factor in aquiring Headley, yet claim the Rodriguez trade is proof the Huntington wasn’t handcuffed by the budget.

I don’t see how that is fair or objective analysis.

DK: I have a feeling there’s a little too much parsing of the stuff I’m writing, NMR. Plain and simple, I raised the Headley thing in the EVENT that Wandy tapped out the reserves. I felt raising that was fair to the GM.

“DK: Speaking only for my own citing of the fundamentals, mine has been specifically targeted at the minor leagues, not the Pittsburgh team. The only references to the parent Pirates in this context have been to recently recalled prospects, plus Josh Harrison and Alex Presley.”

Fundamentals should not be an issue by the team these players reach the bigs. That is EXACTLY what the minor leagues are for. To teach these kids the right way, fundamentally and to prepare them for the show.

I would add that the authorization for the Wandy trade was minimal cost wise compared to what Hunter Pence would have cost or another big bat. The way they are playing now proves that it would have been a wasted trade and we would be without one of our big 5 prospects. No one or two bats would have made this team good enough to compete with Washington or the Reds. What would a bat add 2 maybe 3 wins over 50 games and less money to sign Walker and Hanrahan.

So interesting to see posters like the Fat Jimmy scrambling to cover their recent ridiculous statements in favor of the Nutting Regime.
How quick you are fooled….And how quick you try to cover for yourself.
The Nutting Regime got you…..Again.

And then Huntington doubles down on the inanity by telling the world he had to get permission to stretch the payroll to $55 million. Thanking Nutting publicly like it was something to be proud of. Why would any self respecting GM waste their time talking trade with the Pirates for someone that’s going to cost real money ?

DK: Yes. Because they should be learning how to bunt at the Triple-A level. Gotcha.

I agree. Who is disputing that they shouldn’t learn that? But it is easy for us to sit here and say this guy should be brought up and that guy should be brought up, and criticize the FO when they don’t do it as fast as we would like. My point was maybe they do know that the player isn’t quite ready or has areas of their game that they need to work on. And in some of those cases they came out and told fans what those players needed to work on.

Now I wonder who is ready to be promoted based upon running the obstacle course and climbing the knotted rope.

I agree completely. Lack of fundamentals and development of the players in the minors is the biggest weakness in the organization currently. I know that directly points to Stark and because he was hired by NH it points at him as well.

Sometimes a head coach is told to fire his defensive coordinator and sometimes they just replace the entire staff. It will be interesting to see what Nutting does this off season. I definately want to see Stark replaced but if NH goes for this reason as well I wouldn’t cry foul.

nate83 – I’m with you. I think Stark is gone, and probably Huntington. Somebody, maybe Milo, mentioned they were waiting for the dreaded “vote of confidence” to be released from FC or Nutting. Might be telling that it hasn’t been given.

Nate, I have not seen anything to suggest that the Pirates were financially handcuffed from making trades. In fact, most of the reports I read suggested that the Pirates were doing their best to try and TAKE ON salary as opposed to giving up talent, which is what the other teams wanted.

Passing on Pence and Headley, by all accounts, was more about the prospects being demanded by the other side rather than money.

Not saying it about you, but there is this group of people who believe there are these magical fairy free agents whom the Pirates are passing over each year because the owner is too cheap to sign them. Truth is, there are 2-4 mega elite guys in a free agent class that 24 teams don’t have a chance in signing, and then a bunch of other guys who will demand big salaries for minimal production. These guys aren’t going to change the direction of the franchse.

That’s why we have to get past the money thing. When (if) the day comes when the Pirates have a ton of talented players entering free agency and arbitration, Bob Nutting will be put on the spot to keep much of that talent in town. Until then, he’s not a part of this conversation.

DK: Yes, exactly. One issue I noticed NOBODY has raised here as it relates to stretching or extending payroll is that Huntington already flushed away $15.25 million of what he WAS allotted.

If picking up Wandy tapped out the reserves and we only took on a portion of his remaining salary. What prospects would we have had to give up to get a legit differance making bat to avoid overtapping that reserve.

It’s fair to say he didn’t do anything at the trade deadline but it’s also fair to ask if he was allowed too. He is playing with somebody elses money. It’s also fair to ask Nutting when is the time right because it’s starting to feel like never.

This is quite the rubik’s cube in terms of lining up all the reasons/contributors to the Pirates current position in the standings…. I think “collapse” is a bit hyperbolic in that it doesn’t allow for the “levelling effect” that is part of the MLB season… I think Clint summarizes that often that it is “a 162 game season for a reason”. Blame goes all around, no doubt. Nutting is way,way better as an owner than the “pirates-owner stereotype” he has been branded with. That said, payroll needs to go higher (not that I have any evidence he isn’t supportive of that). FC is good on the business side I suppose but probably needs to just leave the field stuff to the GM. Neal has grown as a GM but maybe he just doesn’t have the “tools” to perform at the level required. Personally, I think this is somewhat a “grass is greener” condundrum but he probably should go just for the minor league program/development approach, etc.

Clint has his faults in game strategy but let’s not fool ourselves that a tweak here or a move there was going to singlehandedly turns Ls into Ws.

The players just aren’t good enough collectively. Is it because they haven’t been instructed the right way? Maybe. Is it because their conditioning is less than optimal? Sure. Is it because they are young and need to learn how to adapt? Definitely. And is it because some of them have peaked with their skills/abilities and “are what they are”? True that.

But let’s give up this “culture” crap. DK would know better than me but I’m SURE there has been tons of turnover from last year’s team on the 25 and 40 man roster. And if we went back 2/3 years, it is likely >75% turnover. We have a new manager, new coaches, etc. Even the FO is 5 years old only. So the “streak” is the least relevant reference anybody makes in terms of actual impact on performance… it only matters for those of us die hard enough to have been actually ROOTING for a different outcome all those 20 years.

To get a better result in 2013? Sure, you can change the GM but the real change that needs to happen is on the field. Time to “cut and run” with a lot of the pablum that is AAAA and go from there.

There are guys like Furcal, Zimmerman and Cuddyer that are 10-14 million a year that are proven players that probably 26 owners would allow their GM’s to go after. Ours can’t. It is proven by Barmes being the largest free agent signing under Huntington money wise. That is sad and Nutting should be embarresed by that.

Yes last off season he was allowed to go after Edwin Jackson and that was a step in the right direction but that was the first time I have ever heard of him being able to go after someone like that in 5 years and I’m sure 10 million was the limit. 8 digit numbers scare Nutting.

I forgot to mention 6 years with a payroll below 60 million is all the evidence I need that they are handcuffed. What GM is told he can spend 90 million and says that’s OK I think I can get it done with 55 million. Go ahead and pocket that other 35 million and I will take all the blame when this house of cards comes crumbling down.

I am not part of the Nutting is cheap crowd (or the we shoulda gotten Pence crowd), but factually, last year Neal said that even aside from the prospects, what Pence would have gotten in arb was one of the reasons they did not go for him. He even mentioned a figure, something like $13-15,000,000. So I think you’re overstating your case, Jimmy. It IS part of the conversation. Maybe not controlling, but definitely part of the conversation.

Don’t lose sight of that point, either. Could Michael Cuddyar have helped this team this year? Absolutely. Would anyone have felt before the year that the Pirates without Cuddyar (projected to win ~78 games) would have been a playoff team (~90 wins) with him? Surely no one things any three of those guys would have been a 12 win improvement.

Conversely, you start tossing around 4 year deals for some guy that isn’t going to put you into the playoffs, and that limits your ability to sign a free agent when the time comes that you need one. Look, given the success of this year, I fully expect the organization to be more aggressive on the FA front. If the Pirates sit back and don’t make a move for a veteran SP, re-up GFJ and generally increase the payroll, then that will be a black mark on the owner.

But I saw no point in signing a mid-tier free agent to a huge deal before this season.

Great post by BVB. I wish it could gain more attention on the radio talk shows and on twitter and other social media outlets.

The problem is the owner. He simply does not have the pockets to be a MLB owner. It does not make him a bad person, but he needs to stop holding this city hostage. This town wants a winner and Nutting can’t deliver that. His lack of spending results in mediocre GMs, mediocre player development personnel, and horrendous players. We need an owner that is willing to pay the cash required to get actual baseball people in the organization that have won World Series and built winning teams. Make these people offers they can’t refuse. Brian Sabean, Theo Epstein, Walt Jockety, and Dave Dombrowski come to mind. None would come cheap, but a real MLB owner would do what it takes to win. Enough is enough Bob Nutting. This town wants you to move on. Sell the team.

Hoov, I think he can afford a good GM. My sense is that he is slowly but surely accumulating enough understanding of baseball to be able to make independent judgments about the way in which the franchise is being managed. His pockets may not be as deep as many of his counterparts’ but then he has given over tens of millions of dollars, and much of it has been flushed down the drain. We like to talk about Matt Morris, but that was a fraction of what hs been wasted by Neal Huntington. I would venture that when Huntington interviews his next head of baseball operations, he will want some demobstrable evidence based on past experience that the individual knows on whom he should be spending finite resources. That investment would pay for itself many times over.