God has to convince my heart of it but contrarywise, He has given to me to believe at this moment that Time ALWAYS exists and has given me scriptures to support this.

I have already noted this! Do you read my posts at all? You have provided NOTHING that Scripturally except quoting UNBIBLICAL books such as BARNABAS... to support your UNBIBLICAL statements, and have ADDED to Scripture in order to support your belief (as you did several times, with Mal 3:6)

I continue to believe in LONGSUFFERING and PATIENCE and the ORDERLY performance of God's Salvation for all. These things all happen in TIME.

But LONGSUFFERING, PATIENCE and ORDERLY performance of GOD's SALVATION shall END and find its destiny in their COMPLETION -- which is ETERNITY...

TIME is an INCOMPLETE entity... you just avoid it...

I am not concerned with your beliefs (which are IMO decieved) you can believe elephants can tie square knots if you so choose... Rather, I am concerned that your UNSCRIPTURAL ideas may mislead others... as you have continually made Unscriptural statements in this thread, as well as additions to SCRIPTURAL texts, in order to support those UNSCRIPTURAL ideas...

Zeek

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

trettep

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either. Personal implies to me to be individually attached. Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Regarding time, I found this definition which will explain how time is not an entity, nor something that was created to end:

timethe system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous durationregarded as that in which events succeed one another.

Time can refer to two things: a distinct period, or sequential relationships REGARDED as events which succeed one to another. For example, if I say that I was happy for a time, I am talking about a specific age, or duration. But if I am talking about time itself, I am refering to the perception of sequential events. BOTH however, are all in regard to thought, to perception.

Time is not a created entity, nor is it a tool for decay. The tool for decay of a rock is the following: wind, rain, bacteria, etc etc etc. When a rock decays it happens as those elements deteriorate the rock in a succession of now moments, that we REGARD as passing into history, which in reality don't pass anywhere. HOWEVER, if something is not able to be decayed, that does not mean it does not take part in a succession of events which can be regarded to have occurred.

Taking a look at Genesis 1, we can see the consistency in this defintion of time: the mental regard of sequential events.

Genesis3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. (event 1)4 And God saw that the light was good (event 2). And God separated the light from the darkness (event 3).5 God CALLED the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

We see here that before anything was RECKONED to be a day, there was a succession of events that flowed from one to the other. For example, AFTER God said "let there be light" he saw the light was good. We see time existing here before any such thing as a "day" exists. FURTHERMORE, we see that what is actually created, is not time, or a day, but LIGHT and the separation of light from dark. That separation is REGARDED to be day and night, and evening and morning: day one.

If a sequence occurs, it is automatically time because time is NOTHING, but a system of duration in which events are REGARDED to occur in succession. Time does not NEED to be created because it is simply the regard for events in sequence as happening one after the other, like music. That is why I say time is thought. However, the ACTUAL experience is only happening in the NOW.

There IS no past, in that events are not occuring in the past. The past is simply a collection of events which HAVE occurs according to memory. Since God's mind is infinite, so is time. And since progression DEPENDS on sequential events time never began, and never ended. If all is FROZEN and nothing ever occurs, even the awareness of life as continuing to be, then time would not exist.

That is what, I think, Sparrow's sense of fear comes from. The concept of "Timelessness" demands a frozen state of inactivity, which I think is false and does spread fear. However, if we distinguish time from measurements of time, I could say that the measuring of time may end, but not progression itself. So time itself would not end, just how we measure it or whether or not we do measure it.

------------

What can end is the ages. The measurements of time: day, seconds, years, millenniums each have an end, and they are also simply mental measurements which in themselves have no meaning other than what we regard. Time does not exist in "now." NOW does not have any volume, so nothing exists IN the now. Rather, "now" is a component of time, in which events are actualized and experienced, whereas past and future are nothing but mental regard for what has occurred and what will occur.

Zeek

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either. Personal implies to me to be individually attached. Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Paul

To me, the relationship is like that of "sexual intercourse", ONE with each other. I personally don't know what could be more personal.

trettep

Regarding time, I found this definition which will explain how time is not an entity, nor something that will end:

timethe system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous durationregarded as that in which events succeed one another.

Time can refer to two things: a distinct period, or sequential relationships REGARDED as events which succeed one to another. For example, if I say that I was happy for a time, I am talking about a specific age, or duration. But if I am talking about time itself, I am refering to the perception of sequential events. BOTH however, are all in regard to thought, to perception.

Time is not a created entity, nor is it a tool for decay. The tool for decay of a rock is the following: wind, rain, bacteria, etc etc etc. When a rock decays it happens as those elements deteriorate the rock in a succession of now moments, that we REGARD as passing into history, which in reality don't pass anywhere. HOWEVER, if something is not able to be decayed, that does not mean it does not take part in a succession of events which can be regarded to have occurred.

Taking a look at Genesis 1, we can see the consistency in this defintion of time: the mental regard of sequential events.

Genesis3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. (event 1)4 And God saw that the light was good (event 2). And God separated the light from the darkness (event 3).5 God CALLED the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

We see here that before anything was RECKONED to be a day, there was a succession of events that flowed from one to the other. For example, AFTER God said "let there be light" he saw the light was good. We see time existing here before any such thing as a "day" exists. FURTHERMORE, we see that what is actually created, is not time, or a day, but LIGHT and the separation of light from dark. That separation is REGARDED to be day and night, and evening and morning: day one.

If a sequence occurs, it is automatically time because time is NOTHING, but a system of duration in which events are REGARDED to occur in succession. Time does not NEED to be created because it is simply the regard for events in sequence as happening one after the other, like music. That is why I say time is thought. However, the ACTUAL experience is only happening in the NOW.

There IS no past, in that events are not occuring in the past. The past is simply a collection of events which HAVE occurs according to memory. Since God's mind is infinite, so is time. And since progression DEPENDS on sequential events time never began, and never ended. If all is FROZEN and nothing ever occurs, even the awareness of life as continuing to be, then time would not exist.

That is what, I think, Sparrow's sense of fear comes from. The concept of "Timelessness" demands a frozen state of inactivity, which I think is false and does spread fear. However, if we distinguish time from measurements of time, I could say that the measuring of time may end, but not progression itself. So time itself would not end, just how we measure it or whether or not we do measure it.

------------

What can end is the ages. The measurements of time: day, seconds, years, millenniums each have an end, and they are also simply mental measurements which in themselves have no meaning other than what we regard. Time does not exist in "now." NOW does not have any volume, so nothing exists IN the now. Rather, "now" is a component of time, in which events are actualized and experienced, whereas past and future are nothing but mental regard for what has occurred and what will occur.

You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity. That is how I see it also. This is why I said that Time is As God is. For God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues. This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time.

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either. Personal implies to me to be individually attached. Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Paul

I think there are several ways to view "personal" as you say there. I think it is a good point to consider what one means by "personal."

Personal can be seen as (from the Oxford American Dictionary):

1) affecting or belonging to a particular person (one may have a personal fortune worth a few million)2) of or concerning one's private life (my personal, private life was affected by the salvation from my slavery to sin)3) referring to a person's body (personal hygene)4)existing as a self-aware entity, not as an abstraction or an impersonal force (Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in a personal God)

Regarding time, I found this definition which will explain how time is not an entity, nor something that will end:

timethe system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous durationregarded as that in which events succeed one another.

Time can refer to two things: a distinct period, or sequential relationships REGARDED as events which succeed one to another. For example, if I say that I was happy for a time, I am talking about a specific age, or duration. But if I am talking about time itself, I am refering to the perception of sequential events. BOTH however, are all in regard to thought, to perception.

Time is not a created entity, nor is it a tool for decay. The tool for decay of a rock is the following: wind, rain, bacteria, etc etc etc. When a rock decays it happens as those elements deteriorate the rock in a succession of now moments, that we REGARD as passing into history, which in reality don't pass anywhere. HOWEVER, if something is not able to be decayed, that does not mean it does not take part in a succession of events which can be regarded to have occurred.

Taking a look at Genesis 1, we can see the consistency in this defintion of time: the mental regard of sequential events.

Genesis3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. (event 1)4 And God saw that the light was good (event 2). And God separated the light from the darkness (event 3).5 God CALLED the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

We see here that before anything was RECKONED to be a day, there was a succession of events that flowed from one to the other. For example, AFTER God said "let there be light" he saw the light was good. We see time existing here before any such thing as a "day" exists. FURTHERMORE, we see that what is actually created, is not time, or a day, but LIGHT and the separation of light from dark. That separation is REGARDED to be day and night, and evening and morning: day one.

If a sequence occurs, it is automatically time because time is NOTHING, but a system of duration in which events are REGARDED to occur in succession. Time does not NEED to be created because it is simply the regard for events in sequence as happening one after the other, like music. That is why I say time is thought. However, the ACTUAL experience is only happening in the NOW.

There IS no past, in that events are not occuring in the past. The past is simply a collection of events which HAVE occurs according to memory. Since God's mind is infinite, so is time. And since progression DEPENDS on sequential events time never began, and never ended. If all is FROZEN and nothing ever occurs, even the awareness of life as continuing to be, then time would not exist.

That is what, I think, Sparrow's sense of fear comes from. The concept of "Timelessness" demands a frozen state of inactivity, which I think is false and does spread fear. However, if we distinguish time from measurements of time, I could say that the measuring of time may end, but not progression itself. So time itself would not end, just how we measure it or whether or not we do measure it.

------------

What can end is the ages. The measurements of time: day, seconds, years, millenniums each have an end, and they are also simply mental measurements which in themselves have no meaning other than what we regard. Time does not exist in "now." NOW does not have any volume, so nothing exists IN the now. Rather, "now" is a component of time, in which events are actualized and experienced, whereas past and future are nothing but mental regard for what has occurred and what will occur.

You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity. That is how I see it also. This is why I said that Time is As God is. For God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues. This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time.

You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity. That is how I see it also. This is why I said that Time is As God is. For God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues. This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time.

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either. Personal implies to me to be individually attached. Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Paul

I think there are several ways to view "personal" as you say there. I think it is a good point to consider what one means by "personal."

Personal can be seen as (from the Oxford American Dictionary):

1) affecting or belonging to a particular person (one may have a personal fortune worth a few million)2) of or concerning one's private life (my personal, private life was affected by the salvation from my slavery to sin)3) referring to a person's body (personal hygene)4)existing as a self-aware entity, not as an abstraction or an impersonal force (Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in a personal God)

Well this lends support to why I think we shouldn't use the phrase. Because it CAN be defined as #1 which is the primary definition. In the case of #1 someone would be believing Jesus to be their own savior and that those that don't have Him are out of the loop for salvation. That was the premise for my OP.

Paul

Logged

trettep

You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity. That is how I see it also. This is why I said that Time is As God is. For God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues. This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time.

Paul

Thought you were confining your comments to the topic...

...willieH

I was just diverting it back on topic Willie but the thread can move where it will and I will get it back on topic where I can. I didn't criticise anyone for diverting. If someone has something to say here - just say it.

You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity. That is how I see it also.

That is just opinion made of TIME from an (limited/finite) observational point WITHIN it...

One can be amidst the OCEAN and look in any direction, and see NO END or BEGINNING to it... that does not mean the OCEAN is FOREVER... nor does it mean that it hasn't any boundaries, whatsoever...

"TIMELESSNESS" just demands that NOW not be measured in terms of past, present, future... which is the only way we as finites are able to observe... and TIME, within its PROGRESSION, takes ALL THINGS within IT, from a "BEGINNING" to an "END"... rather, the ETERNAL takes all positions within TIME and IS SIMULATANEOULY among them... as I explain below with John 3:13 -- read it... it is informative.

Which is WHY CHRIST (who has no beginning or end -- Heb 13:8)... IS the BEGINNING and END of ALL THINGS -- Rev 1:8 -- 1:11 -- 21:6 -- 22:13 -- Col 1:17

Beginning and End of what? Of ALL THINGS and their involvement in TIME which is the EXPERIENTIAL realm of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

JESUS had been noting the "born again" teaching, and Nicodemus was incredulous at the proposal... and then JESUS said -- "Art thou a MASTER of Israel, and knowest not THESETHINGS?" -- Expectant of Nicodemus to grasp the concepts that He just told him...

He then noted to Nicodemus that it was enough for him to BELIEVE "earthly things", and that when told, he had trouble with THAT! ...and then noted that the telling of "Heavenly things" would stretch him beyond his capabilty to "BELIEVE"...

John 3:12I have told you of EARTHLY THINGS and ye BELIEVENOT... HOW shall ye BELIEVE if I tell you HEAVENLY THINGS?

Note JESUS said ..."IF"... which means no "HEAVENLY THINGS" had been expressed...

So the concepts of Heaven from an "Earthly position" would be hard to BELIEVE... (I say it encompasses the TRUE unending, unbeginning state of NOW... without the decaying element of TIME, as present, ...yet maintaining the animation of LIFE and progression... which is neither "forward or backward", but ...IS... a HEAVENLY THING... which men such as Nicodemus or ourselves are unable to grasp.)

TIME's TEMPORALDEATHLY motion of NOW, takes all things within it, through the processes of G & E... part of which is the result of DEATH within "NOW", ...where LIFE is ORDAINED to ETERNALLY BE...

CHRIST is also noted as becoming a little LOWER than the angels for the sufferING (motion/progression) ending in DEATH... and that ETERNAL COMPLETION was accomplished within CHRIST's involvement in TIME... Heb 2:9-10

All the while of His "sufferING" in TIME, He noted that He was ALREADY ascended:

JOHN 3:13

In the following examination of -- John 3:13 -- CHRIST notes during His experience IN and WITHTIME:

John 3:13 -- No MAN hath ASCENDED up INTO Heaven, but He that CAME DOWN from Heaven, even the Son of MAN which ...IS... in Heaven...

He is therein, ...naming Himself:

(1) already "hath ascended" -- future...

(2) "came" down -- past...

(3) "IS" in Heaven -- present...

Which displays that an ETERNAL entity IS NOT confined by the PROGRESSION of TIME as are we... and EXISTS in all portions of it (as finites observe time - past/present/future) SIMULTANEOUSLY...

For God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues. This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time.

And YET ANOTHER... Where is it said in the Scripture that "LONGSUFFERING and PATIENCE (which are the same thing) require TIME", trettep?

We observe these things IN TIME as members OF TIME, but the concepts of ETERNITY are not based upon TIME, and are NOT defined in terms of TIME.

GOD is not subject to TIME... He created it... and shall END it... for its purpose will have been COMPLETED... That does not mean that its MEMORY is dispensed, ...just that its MOTION which decays all within it, shall CEASE.

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either. Personal implies to me to be individually attached. Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Paul

I think there are several ways to view "personal" as you say there. I think it is a good point to consider what one means by "personal."

Personal can be seen as (from the Oxford American Dictionary):

1) affecting or belonging to a particular person (one may have a personal fortune worth a few million)2) of or concerning one's private life (my personal, private life was affected by the salvation from my slavery to sin)3) referring to a person's body (personal hygene)4)existing as a self-aware entity, not as an abstraction or an impersonal force (Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in a personal God)

Well this lends support to why I think we shouldn't use the phrase. Because it CAN be defined as #1 which is the primary definition. In the case of #1 someone would be believing Jesus to be their own savior and that those that don't have Him are out of the loop for salvation. That was the premise for my OP.

Paul

I agree, if people think that Jesus is their OWN savior, and not the savior of the world, then it is the wrong use of the word, and I agree the phrase should not be used among those who wish to preach a true gospel apart from phrases that would just add confusion.

However, #2 is the meaning that I would use - if I did use that phrase. Christ being a personal savior in that case would mean that he saves our personal lives from the evil states that they are in, that we may walk in newness of life. That is why I brought up this scripture:

Phil 2-12Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God in you to will and to work of his good pleasure.

The reference to "our own salvation" is what that scripture is referring to the death of the old and walking in newness of life. Our own salvation can be WORKED outwardly because God is in us both willing and working out through us the evidence that we are being saved from sin.

Sparrow, do an experiment for me. Sit in a quiet room, and clear your thoughts. Make sure absolutely NO memory enters your mind, or ANY thought by which you see anything in your mind. Clear every thought out. If you can achieve this for even a few seconds, THAT is timelessness.

After you have confined yourself to "now" and when you have allowed your thoughts to return, you might see that the "motion" of time is just an illusion created by your mind. There is no motion.

That God's mind does not experience moments as does ours, and is infinitely more expansive, does not suggest timelessness to me, but a HIGHER dimension (aspect) of time. To me, timelessness is a confinement. It's a prison sentence. But "an infinitely higher dimension of time" is an expansiveness, and that is what I believe we will be given.

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either. Personal implies to me to be individually attached. Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Paul

I think there are several ways to view "personal" as you say there. I think it is a good point to consider what one means by "personal."

Personal can be seen as (from the Oxford American Dictionary):

1) affecting or belonging to a particular person (one may have a personal fortune worth a few million)2) of or concerning one's private life (my personal, private life was affected by the salvation from my slavery to sin)3) referring to a person's body (personal hygene)4)existing as a self-aware entity, not as an abstraction or an impersonal force (Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in a personal God)

Well this lends support to why I think we shouldn't use the phrase. Because it CAN be defined as #1 which is the primary definition. In the case of #1 someone would be believing Jesus to be their own savior and that those that don't have Him are out of the loop for salvation. That was the premise for my OP.

Paul

I agree, if people think that Jesus is their OWN savior, and not the savior of the world, then it is the wrong use of the word, and I agree the phrase should not be used among those who wish to preach a true gospel apart from phrases that would just add confusion.

However, #2 is the meaning that I would use - if I did use that phrase. Christ being a personal savior in that case would mean that he saves our personal lives from the evil states that they are in, that we may walk in newness of life. That is why I brought up this scripture:

Phil 2-12Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God in you to will and to work of his good pleasure.

The reference to "our own salvation" is what that scripture is referring to the death of the old and walking in newness of life. Our own salvation can be WORKED outwardly because God is in us both willing and working out through us the evidence that we are being saved from sin.

Yes Seth, I do believe that the preaching of "personal savior" is understood to be only personal in the point that it is one working out their own salvation but the implication is that subversively it could instill the notion of preference which is what concerns me. Therefore, to me better to refrain from using the phrase or else if using it ensure a heavy enphasis on the "universalness" of Christ.

Yes Seth, I do believe that the preaching of "personal savior" is understood to be only personal in the point that it is one working out their own salvation but the implication is that subversively it could instill the notion of preference which is what concerns me. Therefore, to me better to refrain from using the phrase or else if using it ensure a heavy enphasis on the "universalness" of Christ.

Sparrow, do an experiment for me. Sit in a quiet room, and clear your thoughts. Make sure absolutely NO memory enters your mind, or ANY thought by which you see anything in your mind. Clear every thought out. If you can achieve this for even a few seconds, THAT is timelessness.

After you have confined yourself to "now" and when you have allowed your thoughts to return, you might see that the "motion" of time is just an illusion created by your mind. There is no motion.

That God's mind does not experience moments as does ours, and is infinitely more expansive, does not suggest timelessness to me, but a HIGHER dimension (aspect) of time. To me, timelessness is a confinement. It's a prison sentence. But "an infinitely higher dimension of time" is an expansiveness, and that is what I believe we will be given.

Ahhh... I know what you are talking about.It took me a minute to remember.But that has happened to me before when I've just sat still and meditated.

I'll do it again later tonight... because I know what you're talking about.BUT... I think it would be good to try to get that to happen again, because I'm thinking it mighthelp me with this whole time thing. Thanks bro, I appreciate the suggestion.I hadn't thought of that.

It's weird, but I have some sort of combination of what YOU are saying, and what Willie is saying and this combination or blending of the two is what is NOW making sense to me.

I shall meditate on it later tonight and see if it becomes clearer or foggier...lol.

This is a truly fascinating subject.

Logged

"I knelt to drink,And knew that I was on the brinkOf endless joy. And everywhereI turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

I think it might be that we call things differently, but may have a similar understanding. What WillieH might call timelessness, I might call an infinitely higher and more expansive dimension of time, yet if we talked it through, we might come to the same conclusions, like that consciousness and progress still occur in Eternity (to me that is a major agreement). Sometimes I have found in conversations that people might have a similar understanding but use different terms.