It's been a while since I've been to the messageboards, so bear with me here. I'd like to add my 2cp to the conversations:

GeraintElberion wrote:

Amazons are a myth. There were no Amazons. They're shown in art from the period in all kinds of dress, nude and fully-armoured, just as the mythic greek heroes can be seen nude and fully-armoured.

Where or not Amazons are a myth, is irrelevant (I feel) to this conversation. They were a strong point of influence in Ancient Greece, and for a culture where women may not have had true political influence or power, they were well cared for and respected as much as any culture of that time ( Note I said Greece! not Rome! completely different ideas on women)

The Aztec and Mayan *priestesses* were the last and greatest defense to the Temple the Spanish Conquerors had to face. These women and girls didn't wear much of anything, nevertheless armor, as anything but ceremonial armor was an affront to thier calling (some would say even clothing was an obstacle towards "touching" divinity. Considering the fact that more of the Spanish were killed on the temple steps than any where else in the city speaks for itself.

Verminlord wrote:

Personally, I don't have a TV. I don't need one. But I agree with you that the media has a lot of influence in our lives. But that is not the point I tried to make. If a movie get censored in the USA, you find that they don't censor the violence, but every sexscene. In Germany they censor every violencescene and not the sexscene. If you like to look a movie less censored, then you watch the netherland or the japanese version. The country with the largest porn production of the world falls unconscious if they see a nipple on TV. If it is not a problem in the head of the people, what it is then?

I believe you make a very great point here. A society that balks at a normal part of nature (sex and violence being the point here) tries to minimize the exposure to the main population. In doing so they make it more inticing and addictive because of the taboo of having something they're told they can't (.. cookie jar analogy works great here)

I've noticed that societies that have a more accepting and healthy attitdude towards these taboos tend to have less frequent crimes as such. Some social studies suggest that this comes from a society or individual supressed or discouraged towards these attittudes.

That's not to say that all people should be exposed to sex and violence. But a PG-13-esque scantily clad paladin shouldn't be cause to break out the picket line.

I've noticed that societies that have a more accepting and healthy attitdude towards these taboos tend to have less frequent crimes as such. Some social studies suggest that this comes from a society or individual supressed or discouraged towards these attittudes.

That's not to say that all people should be exposed to sex and violence. But a PG-13-esque scantily clad paladin shouldn't be cause to break out the picket line.

In the case of sex, pretty much everyone is assumed to be intended to have it at some point. (There are asexual people, but even the more sexually repressive faiths admonish their faithful to 'be fruitful and multiply.') A lack of information on this topic (see abstinence education and the rising rates of teen pregnancy in every state that adopted it) has proven to always lead to sexual misadventure. It hasn't occured to most parents of these beliefs that having a boy who knows bupkiss about how girls get pregnant courting their daughter is about as sensible as asking the fox to guard the henhouse.

On the other hand, I wonder about how this applies to exposure to violent content. On the one hand, in much of Europe, they censor the sort of violence we see daily on the tube as severly as our media censors black women's nipples (while the same media proudly displays white women's coochies, whenever Sharon Stone or Britney Spears will display them, so go figure). On the other hand, while we'd like to pretend that nobody ever has to actually know anything about violence, many of us are going to face it, either out and about, in the workplace, or, more commonly, at home. Training a child to control their anger, perhaps via some martial arts training that stresses discipline and self-defense over 'kewl ways to hurt people,' should be at least as important as training them to manage their desires.

Just as sex education (real sex education, not faerie tales involving storks and cabbage patches) should probably be mandatory, should self-defense training also be an expected part of the education a child should receive to prepare them for life? (Along with other crazy crap we don't bother teaching our kids, like how to manage their money and that credit cards should be cut up when they arrive in the mail, because they are a TRAP!)

Just as abstinence-only sex education has led to a generation of teens who are disproportionately infected with disease and / or unintentionally pregnant, is Europe grooming a generation of young adults who really have no concept how ugly hurting people can be, essentially creating the next generation of 'soccer hooligans?'

I have no idea. Given a choice between theories of catharsis and conditioning, I'm a behaviorist all the way, and it seems to me that someone who cries a lot isn't 'letting it out' or 'blowing off steam,' but is actually conditioning themselves to cry a lot, reinforcing and encouraging that sort of emotional behavior. The whole 'holding it in until you explode' thing doesn't seem to apply to me. If I restrain a strong feeling, it goes away.

But maybe that's just me. Maybe catharsis *does* work, for other people, and all the primal screaming and wall punching and 'snapping' does prevent them from being even more aggressive, confrontational and, perhaps, violent. If that's the case, then violent video games and sexually mature content is actually keeping them in check, sating their natural human urges, not 'training them to be rapists' or whatever.

I guess the answer to this catharsis vs. conditioning dilemna will decide whether or not something Grand Theft Auto is preventing crime or encouraging it.

And if it truly is different for different people, then should there be some sort of warning label on games like that, or on porn?

'Warning, do not play this game if you have a type Z personality! It's just a game, for god's sake, *don't do this!*'

It's been a while since I've been to the messageboards, so bear with me here. I'd like to add my 2cp to the conversations:

GeraintElberion wrote:

Amazons are a myth. There were no Amazons. They're shown in art from the period in all kinds of dress, nude and fully-armoured, just as the mythic greek heroes can be seen nude and fully-armoured.

Where or not Amazons are a myth, is irrelevant (I feel) to this conversation. They were a strong point of influence in Ancient Greece, and for a culture where women may not have had true political influence or power, they were well cared for and respected as much as any culture of that time ( Note I said Greece! not Rome! completely different ideas on women)

I believe you make a very great point here. A society that balks at a normal part of nature (sex and violence being the point here) tries to minimize the exposure to the main population. In doing so they make it more...

Society of the ancient world had a very different attitude both to women and nudity. Many Celts and Greeks fought naked, celt in particular were well known to have their women along side them(clothed or not I don't know) but they felt encouraged to have their women fighting at their side and as far as I've read they respected warriors whether man or women.

Romans however had a very different attitude and women were treated as a possession of a man so rape would be damaging a mans possession and a rapist would be expected to pay an amount to cover the damage. This led to a large amount of conflict between the romans and the celt( brit celts especially).
Fighting with less or no clothes was a sign of courage and belief, belief that you would not die if you fought with courage in battle.
I generally like to play that attitude in roleplaying games whilst remembering the limitations on the game mechanics, tough warrior sometimes barbarian facing overwhelming odds.

I've roleplayed alongside a few female roleplayers(not many, brit females arn't into it that much) and most do use 'feminine whyles' on my NPC's and because of the genre are often able to twist the poor guards around their little fingers( if they are convincing and make a reasonable diplomacy check!!).

I think the real fun with fantasy settings is, that you can create new societies and don't have to copy existing ones. Unfortunately it's often not done too much.

You can also create societies where the real life society didn't match the mystique being portayed or even create a mythical society which never actually existed.

Samurai for example never had the golden age of honor so often portayed in film. The samurai wars were as bloodthirsty than most western\european wars but once the fighting was finished the Samurai wrote huge books on conduct and honor, bushido mentality(never used)and the Crusaders of the Holy land, written as pious god fearing believers and warriors who in fact committed terrible acts of brutality to innocent people even other Christians.
Likewise the Amazons mentioned earlier, an unbelievable society but fun in a fantasy setting or the moorlocks( underground cannibals who farmed surface humans).

I certainly am enjoying this thread more than the last one, since the debate is certainly more civil.

Historical contexts vs fantasy worlds aside, Inara has shown her self-confidence and intelligence. The question/demand that 'doesn't artwork make you feel demeaned/angry?' falls to the wayside. It instead becomes a statement 'I'm confident in myself, my looks, my ability to kick butt, and my brain. And I'm not going to let anyone, any image, or any society take that away from me!'

Just as sex education (real sex education, not faerie tales involving storks and cabbage patches) should probably be mandatory, should self-defense...

There are some interesting theories from Felix von Cube, a behavior biologist, who says that you have to challenge, not pampering the youth. In his theories he states that violence of the youth is a result of idleness, that they need adventure.

From my point of view I watch a lot of parents who don't take responsibilities for their lives and even less for their children. And this children get their hands on mature material without any real problem. Sometimes their parents even buying it for them. Without guidance this material can be a problem for the mental health of the children, but this is not the mission of a country to solve. Censorship has never worked to solve this kind of problem. I agree with you that education - and I think of the education of parents first -is a part of the solution.

In the case of sex, pretty much everyone is assumed to be intended to have it at some point. (There are asexual people, but even the more sexually repressive faiths admonish their faithful to 'be fruitful and multiply.') A lack of information on this topic (see abstinence education and the rising rates of teen pregnancy in every state that adopted it) has proven to always lead to sexual misadventure.

One of the funniest/saddest stories I ever read was about German couple from a small village that were both raised in a very repressive, fundamentalist Christian cult.

Shortly after the couple was married, they sought a doctor to help them with their infertility issues, as they were desperate to fulfill their family obliagtion (be fruitful, multiply). When the doctor couldn't find anything wrong with either of them, he told them to just be patient and give it time, and eventually they would succeed at having a child.

Two years later they still had not had a child, and sought out a second doctor for a second opinion. Another round of tests, and again, both are in perfect physical condition and there is no discernible reason they aren't getting pregnant. So the doctor asks "How often are you having sex?"

"Oh, we don't have sex. Sex is sinful."

That's right, they did not know that you have to have sex to make a baby.

I certainly am enjoying this thread more than the last one, since the debate is certainly more civil.

Historical contexts vs fantasy worlds aside, Inara has shown her self-confidence and intelligence. The question/demand that 'doesn't artwork make you feel demeaned/angry?' falls to the wayside. It instead becomes a statement 'I'm confident in myself, my looks, my ability to kick butt, and my brain. And I'm not going to let anyone, any image, or any society take that away from me!'

Well done Inara! Maybe you should be the model for some of this art!

I second this call, what have your some of you favourite characters looked like? Maybe you could get some of your character portraits done and I've been looking for some inspiration to draw women again( I need practice as I'm not good at drawing women and horses). I did used to have a small character portrait business going for a while doing fantasy, sci-fi and superhero characters.

I second this call, what have your some of you favourite characters looked like? Maybe you could get some of your character portraits done and I've been looking for some inspiration to draw women again( I need practice as I'm not good at drawing women and horses). I did used to have a small character portrait business going for a while doing fantasy, sci-fi and superhero characters.

Umm.. honestly.. I play more Male characters than female characters (I've been told my male characters are awesome)

Skipping Rock is a *busty* halfling known for having her shirt untied, with a form fitting leather jerkin, and mid calf boots. She's very flirty and love to visit brothels and get drunk.(she's currently trying to seduce a chaste paladin.. loads of laughs!)

Oona Whisperleaf is another halfling, but a halfing bard that uses sexual advances to expose her prey. I'm cultivating her to be a thrall of Malcanthet.

Laurentia is a Pious Templar of Loviatar... enough said.

and Amaraileen.. my paragon of feminine characters.. a half elf Seeker of the Song that travels in leather/velvet dresses, corsets and high heeled boots. Not a whorish woman, but very flirty. Worships Sune, and tends to have her long hair unbound.

.... all of my female characters have curves. Not really chubby, but soft curves.. like Cindy Crawford when she first started... or Monic Belushi in the Matrix movies. And all of them have held their own in the party.

Those of my female characters that aren't Joan of Arc material in battle tend to have something about them that makes them valuable in battle. But none of them dress in shabby clothing,all are confident in their bodies and personalities (which isn't really saying alot since I play all of them!)

No. 10,000 years is about the time human civilization dates back. Also, animal breeding goes thousands of years farther back.

Gailbraithe wrote:

One of the funniest/saddest stories I ever read was about German couple from a small village that were both raised in a very repressive, fundamentalist Christian cult.

Fun, in germany the story goes that it was about an american couple. ^^

Like I said that was just a guess. Joseph Campbell puts the time where the mythology changed from female to male mythology after the time of the early planters.

I grew up in a what many people call a christian sect and I saw quite my share of strange things, including married couples who had problems with the concept of sex. Like a poster before said, self-deception is a mighty force.

I second this call, what have your some of you favourite characters looked like? Maybe you could get some of your character portraits done and I've been looking for some inspiration to draw women again( I need practice as I'm not good at drawing women and horses). I did used to have a small character portrait business going for a while doing fantasy, sci-fi and superhero characters.

Umm.. honestly.. I play more Male characters than female characters (I've been told my male characters are awesome)

Skipping Rock is a *busty* halfling known for having her shirt untied, with a form fitting leather jerkin, and mid calf boots. She's very flirty and love to visit brothels and get drunk.(she's currently trying to seduce a chaste paladin.. loads of laughs!)

Oona Whisperleaf is another halfling, but a halfing bard that uses sexual advances to expose her prey. I'm cultivating her to be a thrall of Malcanthet.

Laurentia is a Pious Templar of Loviatar... enough said.

and Amaraileen.. my paragon of feminine characters.. a half elf Seeker of the Song that travels in leather/velvet dresses, corsets and high heeled boots. Not a whorish woman, but very flirty. Worships Sune, and tends to have her long hair unbound.

.... all of my female characters have curves. Not really chubby, but soft curves.. like Cindy Crawford when she first started... or Monic Belushi in the Matrix movies. And all of them have held their own in the party.

Those of my female characters that aren't Joan of Arc material in battle tend to have something about them that makes them valuable in battle. But none of them dress in shabby clothing,all are confident in their bodies and personalities (which isn't really saying alot since I play all of...

Interesting character ideas, the halfling is a good one. I only generally play male characters except for a female professor in a Call Of Cthulhu game and a female rogue\fighter in Ravenloft who looked a bit like the human equivalent of Skipping Rock. I'll see what I can come up with, scan the pic and attach them to an email if you want, let me know and I'll give you my mail address?

Oh and what are the hair colours, styles like( curly long hair, short cropped, long straight etc)?

Talking by different ways of dressing reminds me of Morgan Freeman's character in Lean on Me.

Joe Clark wrote:

I want all of you to take a good look at this slovenly, sloppy boy - as an example of how NOT to dress. If you look like THIS in the morning, find some other clothes to wear. Self-respect permeates every aspect of your existence. If you don't have respect for yourself, you're not gonna get it from anyone else.

Interesting character ideas, the halfling is a good one. I only generally play male characters except for a female professor in a Call Of Cthulhu game and a female rogue\fighter in Ravenloft who looked a bit like the human equivalent of Skipping Rock. I'll see what I can come up with, scan the pic and attach them to an email if you want, let me know and I'll give you my mail address?

Oh and what are the hair colours, styles like( curly long hair, short cropped, long straight etc)?

Honestly, I wouldn't want to bore anyone with the praises of my PC's (talkin' about my character generation!"..

*ahem* .. well, that's out of my system for another few weeks....

... anyways, you can email me (hotaru1301@hotmail.com) or give me yours, and I'll give you some in depth descriptions that might help you.

Inara Red Cloak dresses like a Mord Sith. They were a nasty bunch. Often beautiful, but could kick your arse three ways to Sunday. They preferred red leather. Blood red.

Sounds a bit like my Inara Red Cloak. Though she's not really a hard ass outright.

Ironically enough, she shares a bit of my personality in the fact that you can flirt with her, and get a bit of a reaction... but if you can handle a sword.. whole 'nother question.

The most excited she's ever been (caused by a man) was when he made her pull out all the stops in a friendly sparring match.

Of my female characters my Call of Chulhu professor Anne Dawson was a fun one to play, very proper lady in her early 20's, attractive can be shocked with only a little effort. She got infected by Lycanthropy and it freaked her out completely ( in game it made her almost indistructable in a Captain Scarlett type way) but she hated it and spent her entire time for about six sessions trying to get a cure for it. Finally she started to come to terms with it and learn to control it more. It was fun.

My other rogish women from ravenloft named Alisha was a flirt and con artist, acrobatic and a bit swashbuckler style( using kicks in combat, sword pommel etc).
My male characters have ranged between tortured upright paladins, cheerful young nieve fighters, swashbucklers to sightly dubious mages( will do 'evil' essentually to serve the greater good).

I misread this as Mod Sith, and something in my brain exploded trying to picture a fusion of Mod and Sith.

LMAO. Where do you get this stuff???!!!

The Mord Sith are from Terry Goodkind's series, Sword of Truth/Wizard's First Rule, etc. The only weapons they used were martial arts and a rod that could steal another's magic. Once the magic became their own they could illicit pain or pleasure in their captive. Their job was to break or destroy anyone that posed a threat to the Lord Rahl.

While the hero of the stories was a male, there are quite a few powerful female characters. Especially Kahlan, the Mother Confessor. But for devotion and viciousness you can't do much better than the Mord Sith. People got out of their way. Quickly.

As such the Mord Sith weren't fazed about appearances, only about getting the job done.

Interesting character ideas, the halfling is a good one. I only generally play male characters except for a female professor in a Call Of Cthulhu game and a female rogue\fighter in Ravenloft who looked a bit like the human equivalent of Skipping Rock. I'll see what I can come up with, scan the pic and attach them to an email if you want, let me know and I'll give you my mail address?

Oh and what are the hair colours, styles like( curly long hair, short cropped, long straight etc)?

Honestly, I wouldn't want to bore anyone with the praises of my PC's (talkin' about my character generation!"..

*ahem* .. well, that's out of my system for another few weeks....

... anyways, you can email me (hotaru1301@hotmail.com) or give me yours, and I'll give you some in depth descriptions that might help you.

I've emailed you Inara so let me know what you come up with ok :). I want to get cracking whilst the inspirations on me.

As others have said, it's a matter of practicality and variety.
Sure there are women who dress sexily, they do it in real world too. And especially if you are planning to have combat encounters with members of your own race, distracting clothing can be even an asset.

Other issues like mobility are of course important (and I do agree about Lara Croft, she does dress quite logically, as long as her bra gives enough support :) )

But of course we should have variety, female paladin who dresses up in heavy plate mail or wizard who prefers bulky robes (my namesake character Magdalena did that, and generally she found idea of sex somewhat strange...). And looking at historical figures, one person to consider is also Queen Elisabeth I, who basically created a pure virgin image of herself to be taken seriously. No doubt there would be female adventurers who would do the same.

But anyway, I don't really get chainmail bikinis. Why on earth would anyone want to wear those? I can understand normal bikini-style clothing, but chainmail is heavier, less comfortable and still would have no practical use as an armor. Leather things I have no problem with...most of the time.
Reading comic versions of stories like Ice Giant's Daughter by RE Howard where Conan is traipsing on a glacier with nothing but loincloth is equally stupid.

But anyway, I don't really get chainmail bikinis. Why on earth would anyone want to wear those? I can understand normal bikini-style clothing, but chainmail is heavier, less comfortable and still would have no practical use as an armor.

Even worse, it's often depicted with flesh visible beneath it, meaning that this crazy person is wearing her chainmail bikini commando.

That's hardcore! It's gotta be decorative, 'cause that woman (or occasional man, shown in a chain shirt, with nothing underneath) has to have Natural Armor of +2 or so to be able to survive the chafing and the pinching and the hair-pulling!

So there's a basic warning sign for the adventurous and / or amorous. Any hot person wearing chainmail without padding underneath probably worships Loviator and has a different definition of a 'good time' than you do.

In middle school, I was the fat kid. Low self-esteem, inferiority complex, the works.

I started playing D&D around the same time, and at one of the games, I can remember someone saying something like "I bet you wish you could do the stuff your character does in real life." That seemed to hit me a bit more than the usual s~@+ that I took in school.

So I started doing stuff. I actually went on trips with my Scout troop. I started running. I learned a bit of swordplay. I lifted weights. By the time I hit about tenth or eleventh grade, I wasn't the fat geek anymore (granted, I'm no Adonis, but at least I wasn't Chris Farley). I still keep up with everything that I started back then. Since I started playing D&D, I've been on five 50+ mile wilderness treks, hold down two AWESOME (albeit rather low-paying) jobs, and can hold a discourse on music history with an expert musician.

Playing D&D boosted my health, my intellect, and my self-esteem, and I wouldn't trade the experience for anything in the world.