On Sept. 18, 1919 the World Series fix was hatched in Gandil's room in Boston's Hotel Buckminster when he summoned bookmaker-gambler Joseph "Sport" Sullivan and told him: "I think we can put it in the bag." :whiner:

It is 2 blocks from Fenway and next month a plaque will be placed on the hotel with that sad fact.

Whappeh

03-23-2009, 05:52 PM

So they put an Uno in the ground floor? :scratch:

Fenway

03-23-2009, 05:53 PM

So they put an Uno in the ground floor? :scratch:

Ironic isn't it.

MarySwiss

03-23-2009, 06:11 PM

You know what, Fens? I don't know about other Sox fans, but I don't hate the 1919 Sox. They were squeezed by a cheap owner and did what they thought they had to do.

What I do hate is the way this whole "Black Sox" thing KEEPS COMING UP! Like no other teams were on the take at that time. :angry:

Whappeh

03-23-2009, 06:21 PM

You know what, Fens? I don't know about other Sox fans, but I don't hate the 1919 Sox. They were squeezed by a cheap owner and did what they thought they had to do.

What I do hate is the way this whole "Black Sox" thing KEEPS COMING UP! Like no other teams were on the take at that time. :angry:

I was actually talking to my dad about that, and pointed out how a lot of players them personally would commonly miss catching a ball here and there in order to pick up a few extra bucks on the side from bookies or people making bets in the stands (documented cases). I think its just such a legacy of 1919 because it happened in the World Series and was forced to the forefront.

DSpivack

03-23-2009, 06:27 PM

You know what, Fens? I don't know about other Sox fans, but I don't hate the 1919 Sox. They were squeezed by a cheap owner and did what they thought they had to do.

What I do hate is the way this whole "Black Sox" thing KEEPS COMING UP! Like no other teams were on the take at that time. :angry:

I don't hate them because it occurred 65 years before I was born. I just don't think it matters all that much.

If the Trib is still around in a decade, you think they have a big 10th anniversary?

BleacherBandit

03-23-2009, 06:49 PM

Meh, I still hate Wrigley more.

TommyJohn

03-23-2009, 06:59 PM

You know what, Fens? I don't know about other Sox fans, but I don't hate the 1919 Sox. They were squeezed by a cheap owner and did what they thought they had to do.

Bull****. They were greedy, pure and simple.

What I do hate is the way this whole "Black Sox" thing KEEPS COMING UP! Like no other teams were on the take at that time. :angry:I'm with you on that one. My God, you think this stuff happened last year the way people bring it up. Just let it go.

RadioheadRocks

03-23-2009, 07:21 PM

You know what, Fens? I don't know about other Sox fans, but I don't hate the 1919 Sox. They were squeezed by a cheap owner and did what they thought they had to do.

What I do hate is the way this whole "Black Sox" thing KEEPS COMING UP! Like no other teams were on the take at that time. :angry:

And most of the ones who bring it up are the very same ones who tell us to "stop living in the past" regarding 2005 and other things. :angry::angry::angry:

Sorry folks, you can't have it both ways!

TommyJohn

03-23-2009, 07:26 PM

And most of the ones who bring it up are the very same ones who tell us to "stop living in the past" regarding 2005 and other things. :angry::angry::angry:

Sorry folks, you can't have it both ways!

I never thought of that, but you're right. A person who is determined to be a big, fat, flaming ******* buttwipe will never let logic stand in the way of his/her *******ry.

veeter

03-23-2009, 07:48 PM

Meh, I still hate Wrigley more.Me too, and it's not even close.

russ99

03-23-2009, 08:02 PM

While I don't condone fixing the Series in the least, I do see the player's side on how Comiskey nickel and dimed them to death. But that doesn't absolve them of their guilt. Regardless it's still a dark day in Sox history.

But a much bigger crime than the commonplace (in the era) occurance of fixing a sporting event is what Landis did to the White Sox, by banning all involved without due process, especially since they were acquited in a court of law, albeit one that was likely compromised itself.

Makes me wonder what Landis was hiding... to summarily ban all 8 players in the middle of a pennant race without a hearing, witnesses called or evidence presented. Seems to me he was acting much like Selig now, trying to sweep a scandal under the rug before it being blown even more wide open with additional revelations, such as other Series being thrown, by much more prominent teams and more respectable players...

That one act by Landis set back the franchise so far, it took 35+ years to recover from.

Iwritecode

03-23-2009, 08:03 PM

Bull****. They were greedy, pure and simple.

To take a quote from the movie (which ironically, I just watched last night)

"You never played for Charlie Comiskey."

soxpride724

03-23-2009, 08:33 PM

I don't hate the 1919 team, everyone was fixing games in those days, including the beloved Cubs.

As far as baning those eight players, I think they should lift the ban. It's silly it's been almost 100 years, let it go already.

DSpivack

03-23-2009, 08:46 PM

While I don't condone fixing the Series in the least, I do see the player's side on how Comiskey nickel and dimed them to death. But that doesn't absolve them of their guilt. Regardless it's still a dark day in Sox history.

But a much bigger crime than the commonplace (in the era) occurance of fixing a sporting event is what Landis did to the White Sox, by banning all involved without due process, especially since they were acquited in a court of law, albeit one that was likely compromised itself.

Makes me wonder what Landis was hiding... to summarily ban all 8 players in the middle of a pennant race without a hearing, witnesses called or evidence presented. Seems to me he was acting much like Selig now, trying to sweep a scandal under the rug before it being blown even more wide open with additional revelations, such as other Series being thrown, by much more prominent teams and more respectable players...

That one act by Landis set back the franchise so far, it took 35+ years to recover from.

Kennesaw Landis was a bigot and an *******, Black Sox scandal besides.

scarsofthumper

03-23-2009, 08:59 PM

I hate Dolphin Stadium more than Wrigley

Ziggy S

03-24-2009, 01:05 AM

I hate all stadiums. I don't like anyplace I might have to sit next to another human body. I try to live as much of a solitary experience as possible.

Shoeless_Jeff

03-24-2009, 01:13 AM

The Pizzeria Uno cracked me up.

I sympathize with the players from the 1919 team. No White Sox stadium should ever again bear the Comiskey name.

And Kenesaw Mountain Landis was a piece of ****.

beasly213

03-24-2009, 08:51 AM

The Pizzeria Uno cracked me up.

I sympathize with the players from the 1919 team. No White Sox stadium should ever again bear the Comiskey name.

And Kenesaw Mountain Landis was a piece of ****.

If it wasn't for Charles Comiskey there's a good chance the American League wouldn't be around.

Hitmen77

03-24-2009, 08:53 AM

meh, i still hate wrigley more.

+1

PaleHoser

03-24-2009, 10:05 AM

Wrigley Field is a nice place, when it's empty.

Walker29

03-24-2009, 10:21 AM

I ate in the Pizzeria Uno after one of the games @ Fenway last season. Little did I know I was sitting under a place of infamy. I'm still disappointed about the 1919 team, just for the fact of how many times I've heard Cub fans and other so-called baseball pundits say (up until 2005)...."Your team has thrown a World Series since you last one."

guillensdisciple

03-24-2009, 10:31 AM

I am pretty sure I can think of 10 places I am more agitated by, but I am not too involved with the past mishaps of the Sox. It is important, but the scandal doesn't really bear any significance on the teams of today.

Thome25

03-24-2009, 10:34 AM

I don't hate the 1919 team. Comiskey was a cheapskate and they did what they had to do. I mean flat champagn? Holding players out so they don't meet incentives in their contracts and make bonuses? Brutal.

The 1919 Sox weren't the only ones who did this back in the day. They were they only ones who got caught and were the martyrs in the process.

Nellie_Fox

03-24-2009, 11:16 AM

I don't hate the 1919 team. Comiskey was a cheapskate and they did what they had to do. I mean flat champagn? Holding players out so they don't meet incentives in their contracts and make bonuses? Brutal.

The 1919 Sox weren't the only ones who did this back in the day. They were they only ones who got caught and were the martyrs in the process.I'm not terribly comfortable with the idea that you can become a criminal because you aren't being treated fairly by your boss and that makes it okay. That's not what "they had to do." They could have gone and gotten a real job.

doublem23

03-24-2009, 11:31 AM

I'm not terribly comfortable with the idea that you can become a criminal because you aren't being treated fairly by your boss and that makes it okay. That's not what "they had to do." They could have gone and gotten a real job.

No one is saying what they did was OK, just that they understand their motivations.

And all that being said, the 8 were acquitted in trial by their peers.

tick53

03-24-2009, 11:33 AM

Meh, I still hate Wrigley more.

I'm witcha. :D:

Iwritecode

03-24-2009, 11:47 AM

I ate in the Pizzeria Uno after one of the games @ Fenway last season. Little did I know I was sitting under a place of infamy. I'm still disappointed about the 1919 team, just for the fact of how many times I've heard Cub fans and other so-called baseball pundits say (up until 2005)...."Your team has thrown a World Series since you last one."

My friend the Cubs fan said it's the team that discraced the city of Chicago.

I told him the Cubs have been discracing the city every year since then. :D:

C-Dawg

03-24-2009, 12:06 PM

This hotel in Boston played a role in White Sox history.

I blame the whole city of Boston for the scandal, not the hotel.

TommyJohn

03-24-2009, 12:14 PM

I'm not terribly comfortable with the idea that you can become a criminal because you aren't being treated fairly by your boss and that makes it okay. That's not what "they had to do." They could have gone and gotten a real job.

Thank you.

I don't hate the 1919 team. Comiskey was a cheapskate and they did what they had to do. I mean flat champagn? Holding players out so they don't meet incentives in their contracts and make bonuses? Brutal.

The Cicotte bonus myth rears its ugly head again. Two historians have pretty much shot this story full of holes.

Did anyone ever stop to think of the logic of this myth anyway? Number one, Cicotte's salary for 1920 was about $9,000 plus a $3,000 signing bonus. (source: Stealing First In a Two-Team Town-Richard Lindberg.) That would mean that the supposed $10,000 "bonus" he was to have earned for either 1917 or 1919 (take your pick, Eliot Asinof can no longer keep it straight either) would have exceeded his salary for the entire season, to say nothing of a bonus he received for signing his 1920 contract. And what would a miserly cheapskate be doing offering a bonus like that anyway? It far exceeds anything he would have paid out to any other player.

A recently discovered deposition Cicotte gave to Alfred Austrian before his grand jury testimony indicates that he settled on that amount because word had it was that $10,000 was the going rate the previous year when one or more members of the Cubs got paid to tank the series against the Red Sox. Cicotte and the ones he spoke to about it (Gandil and I think McMullin) decided that they could get away with it.

Thome25

03-24-2009, 12:48 PM

Thank you.

The Cicotte bonus myth rears its ugly head again. Two historians have pretty much shot this story full of holes.

Did anyone ever stop to think of the logic of this myth anyway? Number one, Cicotte's salary for 1920 was about $9,000 plus a $3,000 signing bonus. (source: Stealing First In a Two-Team Town-Richard Lindberg.) That would mean that the supposed $10,000 "bonus" he was to have earned for either 1917 or 1919 (take your pick, Eliot Asinof can no longer keep it straight either) would have exceeded his salary for the entire season, to say nothing of a bonus he received for signing his 1920 contract. And what would a miserly cheapskate be doing offering a bonus like that anyway? It far exceeds anything he would have paid out to any other player.

A recently discovered deposition Cicotte gave to Alfred Austrian before his grand jury testimony indicates that he settled on that amount because word had it was that $10,000 was the going rate the previous year when one or more members of the Cubs got paid to tank the series against the Red Sox. Cicotte and the ones he spoke to about it (Gandil and I think McMullin) decided that they could get away with it.

I stand corrected sir.....thank you.:D:

doublem23

03-24-2009, 12:54 PM

The Cicotte bonus myth rears its ugly head again. Two historians have pretty much shot this story full of holes.

Did anyone ever stop to think of the logic of this myth anyway? Number one, Cicotte's salary for 1920 was about $9,000 plus a $3,000 signing bonus. (source: Stealing First In a Two-Team Town-Richard Lindberg.) That would mean that the supposed $10,000 "bonus" he was to have earned for either 1917 or 1919 (take your pick, Eliot Asinof can no longer keep it straight either) would have exceeded his salary for the entire season, to say nothing of a bonus he received for signing his 1920 contract. And what would a miserly cheapskate be doing offering a bonus like that anyway? It far exceeds anything he would have paid out to any other player.

Did you ever stop to think that this is exactly the kind of scheme a known cheapskate like Charles Comiskey would pull? Offer players relatively low base salaries but also extravagant bonuses based on performance, only to have those players benched if they risked actually earning them? Thanks to the reserve clause, any Sox player would either have to accept his terms or not play ball, there was no free agency, waiver wire, etc. I wonder how The Old Roman could make any cash running his operation like that.

soxinem1

03-24-2009, 01:11 PM

If those wonderful 'historians' in BOS feel the necessity to do this, then they should also mark a commemorative plaque in the location that Harry Frazee sold Babe Ruth and others to finance one of his bomb theatrical plays the year after this.

Railsplitter

03-24-2009, 05:59 PM

Why should I hate a building because of what two guys did in it? It wasn't the building's fault.

Fenway

03-24-2009, 06:14 PM

If those wonderful 'historians' in BOS feel the necessity to do this, then they should also mark a commemorative plaque in the location that Harry Frazee sold Babe Ruth and others to finance one of his bomb theatrical plays the year after this.

I'm with you on that one. My God, you think this stuff happened last year the way people bring it up. Just let it go.
You have no idea. One of my friends (a Cub fan, of course) claims that baseball was ruined forever by the 1919 White Sox, and that the White Sox organization is to this day somehow responsible for the Pete Rose scandal, for steroids, corked bats, and every other instance of dishonesty in the sport since 1919, because they "ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge" and killed the innocence of the sport. Let's just say I have zero respect for him as a baseball fan.

RadioheadRocks

03-25-2009, 05:54 PM

You have no idea. One of my friends (a Cub fan, of course) claims that baseball was ruined forever by the 1919 White Sox, and that the White Sox organization is to this day somehow responsible for the Pete Rose scandal, for steroids, corked bats, and every other instance of dishonesty in the sport since 1919, because they "ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge" and killed the innocence of the sport. Let's just say I have zero respect for him as a baseball fan.

:rolleyes:

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

TornLabrum

03-25-2009, 05:59 PM

You have no idea. One of my friends (a Cub fan, of course) claims that baseball was ruined forever by the 1919 White Sox, and that the White Sox organization is to this day somehow responsible for the Pete Rose scandal, for steroids, corked bats, and every other instance of dishonesty in the sport since 1919, because they "ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge" and killed the innocence of the sport. Let's just say I have zero respect for him as a baseball fan.

You might want to remind your friend that the Black Sox scandal came out as part of an investigation into a Cubs pitcher being bribed to throw a game.

TommyJohn

03-25-2009, 07:28 PM

You have no idea. One of my friends (a Cub fan, of course) claims that baseball was ruined forever by the 1919 White Sox, and that the White Sox organization is to this day somehow responsible for the Pete Rose scandal, for steroids, corked bats, and every other instance of dishonesty in the sport since 1919, because they "ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge" and killed the innocence of the sport. Let's just say I have zero respect for him as a baseball fan.

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

There are also stories that the 1918 Series between the Red Sox and Cubs was fixed.

Your friend is obviously very ignorant of his history. Game fixing and gambling were around long before 1919. His crap shouldn't even be worthy of a response.