Radioactive Ass:cybrwzrd: Yeah, and you are in the wrong for believing that young adults are incapable of making their own decisions until an arbitrary date.

A 14 year old is in no way a "Young Adult". They are years away from being considered so in any substantive way. 18-21 is a young adult. 21 and beyond is an adult.

Biologically they are. Most humans reach sexual maturity before that even. Even Wikipedia agrees with me here.

"Puberty and therefore biological adulthood generally begins around 10 or 11 years of age for girls and 11 or 12 years of age for boys, though this will vary from person to person"

As a side note - I am in no way advocating sexual abuse of young adults by making this statement - I am just stating facts. Though I am sure you will quickly call me a pedophile for saying that girls as young as 10 or 11 are adults.

Brostorm:Z-clipped: hammer85: Z-clipped: To all of the "law is the law" knuckleheads, I'll say the same thing I said in the last thread:

If you think that a high school student having consensual sex with another high school student warrants a felony conviction for any reason whatsoever, REGARDLESS of their ages, you've either lost all sense of perspective, or you're batshiat crazy.

Internet Meme Rogers:Amberleia: Internet Meme Rogers: It's interesting that the posters in this thread who are obviously women have related either that they were fully aware, able to, and did consent to sex around the age of 14, or that they felt not ready at that age and chose to wait until they were older. I have yet to see one say they were children incapable of making that decision for themselves.

At fourteen, I was a child and hadn't ever even actually considered the possibility of having sex. Happy now?

This is a disingenuous answer. Are you saying that if an 18 year old tried to seduce you in some way you would have been totally helpless in reacting to it?

Of course I wouldn't have been helpless, but sex just wasn't something I'd given thought to. I had crushes, sure, but the idea of having sex never hit me until senior year. I skipped a couple years of school and graduated at 16, so part of my lack of interest may have been due to always feeling like an outsider. Alternatively, it may have been attributable to always having my head buried in books. At any rate, it was a non-issue for me.

cybrwzrd:Radioactive Ass: cybrwzrd: Yeah, and you are in the wrong for believing that young adults are incapable of making their own decisions until an arbitrary date.

A 14 year old is in no way a "Young Adult". They are years away from being considered so in any substantive way. 18-21 is a young adult. 21 and beyond is an adult.

Biologically they are. Most humans reach sexual maturity before that even. Even Wikipedia agrees with me here.

"Puberty and therefore biological adulthood generally begins around 10 or 11 years of age for girls and 11 or 12 years of age for boys, though this will vary from person to person"

As a side note - I am in no way advocating sexual abuse of young adults by making this statement - I am just stating facts. Though I am sure you will quickly call me a pedophile for saying that girls as young as 10 or 11 are adults.

Growing hair in places where there wasn't hair before is just one small part of the human body as it matures. Modern science has shown that the brain scans of a 14 year old compared to an 18 year old are decidedly different. We aren't talking about looks but about what you cannot see. Brain development and life experience. Hormones are but a small part of it.

hammer85:Z-clipped: hammer85: Z-clipped: hammer85: Z-clipped: To all of the "law is the law" knuckleheads, I'll say the same thing I said in the last thread:

If you think that a high school student having consensual sex with another high school student warrants a felony conviction for any reason whatsoever, REGARDLESS of their ages, you've either lost all sense of perspective, or you're batshiat crazy.

You're accusing someone of having ephebophilic, predatory fantasies of their "teenage daughter's friends" because they called you out over trying to justify making it legal to fark a 14 year old. You then tried to justify it by pretending to know their sexual habits, or lack there-of in high school.

That is the definition of either projection, or being a total troll. Which are you doing skippy?

If you're honestly accusing someone of being a pedophile and/or ephebophile with nothing to prove that, you deserve a kick in the cods (or taco).

Z-clipped:How about you take a step back and consider how utterly stupid a request this is?

I banged your mom when I was 14 and she was 18. That good enough for you?

By the sound of that, I'm willing to bet the only thing you banged at 14 was a crusty tube-sock with the name "Sally Palms" sharpie'd onto the tip.

Brostorm:Its funny that you don't understand why laws have to be gender neutralIts funny that you think people without equal responsibility deserve equal rights.

As a left leaning person myself, if the left wants to support having sex with 14 year olds as a cause worth fighting for, they are in for a rude awakening.

Scroll through the thread, sport. I'm pretty sure I didn't offer an opinion on whether the 18 year old in this case ought to be prosecuted. What I did offer was one smart ass remark, one comment on the social construction of adolescence, and one thumbnail sketch of the research on adolescent sexuality. And, yes, the research generally points us toward the common sense idea that sexual predators tend to be men, and when those pigs go trolling for little girls, that's a actually-empirically-measurable problem. One that is intuitively understood, and was the (actual) historical rationale for the laws we have.

Girls exploring their sexuality with other girls, in the context of a high school relationship...just about zilch evidence that's damaging. And (historically) has nothing to do with the laws on the books.

Science: we have other objectives than taking sides in internet flame wars.

Z-clipped:hammer85: Z-clipped: hammer85: Z-clipped: hammer85: Z-clipped: To all of the "law is the law" knuckleheads, I'll say the same thing I said in the last thread:

If you think that a high school student having consensual sex with another high school student warrants a felony conviction for any reason whatsoever, REGARDLESS of their ages, you've either lost all sense of perspective, or you're batshiat crazy.

Bumblefark:And, yes, the research generally points us toward the common sense idea that sexual predators tend to be men, and when those pigs go trolling for little girls, that's a actually-empirically-measurable problem.

And it's attitudes like this, and this misinformed belief, that allow female sexual predators to get away with what they do.

hardinparamedic:cybrwzrd: muck4doo:When you two stop defending pedophilia, I'll stop blaming you two for defending it.

You really need to quit lusting after your daughter's teenage friends. I sense some repressed sexual tension from you thus your adverse reaction to someone saying that the law needs to keep out of adolescent's sex lives with other adolescents. I'm sorry that you couldn't get any in High School.

The first step is admitting that you are a ephebophile, the next is to stop watching "teen" porn. Let me break it to you, those teens are in their mid-late twenties.

You're accusing someone of having ephebophilic, predatory fantasies of their "teenage daughter's friends" because they called you out over trying to justify making it legal to fark a 14 year old. You then tried to justify it by pretending to know their sexual habits, or lack there-of in high school.

That is the definition of either projection, or being a total troll. Which are you doing skippy?

If you're honestly accusing someone of being a pedophile and/or ephebophile with nothing to prove that, you deserve a kick in the cods (or taco).

I am just serving a bit of his own medicine. He called me a pedophile all night for saying this: I don't think the law needs to be involved in a sexual relationship between a 14 and 18 year old. Male or Female, straight or gay.

Internet Meme Rogers:Amberleia: Internet Meme Rogers: It's interesting that the posters in this thread who are obviously women have related either that they were fully aware, able to, and did consent to sex around the age of 14, or that they felt not ready at that age and chose to wait until they were older. I have yet to see one say they were children incapable of making that decision for themselves.

At fourteen, I was a child and hadn't ever even actually considered the possibility of having sex. Happy now?

This is a disingenuous answer. Are you saying that if an 18 year old tried to seduce you in some way you would have been totally helpless in reacting to it?

At 14 I went through a spell where an older boy (17 or 18, I don't remember which) would hit on me every day (asking for kisses etc) while I was waiting for the train to take me to school. I didn't like him very much but I was also fairly shy and was frightened of what might happen if I told him straight-out that I wanted him to leave me alone. I became really scared of that wait, and ended up leaving home a lot earlier than I had to to catch a different train and avoid him. Looking back on it, a few things stand out to me: 1) He probably didn't think he was harassing or intimidating me. Functionally speaking he was, but guys that age are not necessarily very perceptive. Nonetheless, that 3/4 year age difference made it very hard for me to flat-out tell him to cut it out. He was much more adult-acting than I was in many ways and I was used to a world in which adults set the terms of interaction (I was not raised abusively, I should mention. But most people on the young end of teenagerhood will still be more used to a world in which others make the rules). 2) I didn't tell anyone -- parents, teachers, etc, not because they would have reacted badly but because I was embarrassed at *not* being able to handle it. I thought I should be able to.

If the guy had been a little more aggressive and we'd been in a more private venue than a train station platform, I can very easily picture myself being swayed into doing something I wasn't ready for. So while I would have spat nails at the suggestion then, yes, I was a child who was comparatively easy for an older adolescent to pressure. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but to say that every fourteen-year-old girl is ready to assert herself the way you describe isn't true.

BarkingUnicorn:"Although only 13% of teens have had sex by age 15, most initiate sex in their later teen years. By their 19th birthday, seven in 10 female and male teens have had intercourse. "

Seven out of ten would be 70%.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html

I believe that the question was how many of those sexual encounters were between 18 and 14 year old individuals. You answered it by showing that even if every single sexual encounter by age 15 were with an 18 year old that it would be 13%. However I strongly doubt that that is the case. Even with an even distribution between the spectrum of 15 and 18 it would be closer to around 3% which is hardly their peers. I'd put the likelihood of 14 to 18 lower than that. 15-15 or 15-16 would be much more likely.

Brostorm:BarkingUnicorn: Brostorm: Please supply any stats showing 14 and 18 year olds having sex is anywhere near 50% of high school age kids. Hell, give me anything that says it is 15%

"Although only 13% of teens have had sex by age 15, most initiate sex in their later teen years. By their 19th birthday, seven in 10 female and male teens have had intercourse. "

Seven out of ten would be 70%.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html

"Please supply any stats showing 14 and 18 year olds having sex is anywhere near 50% of high school age kids. Hell, give me anything that says it is 15% "

No one has ever denied people in that age range aren't having sex, you made the claim that 18 and 14 year olds were having sex TOGETHER

Haven't enough people made it abundantly clear in this thread that in FL, it doesn't have to be 18 and 14 to be considered illegal? Why don't you try asking an intelligent question instead of demanding statistics you know damn well don't exist?

His argument is bullshiat poisoning the well, and you know it. It's either pisspoor trolling, or projection.

He's taking the tactic of accusing his opponent of being a pedo because he disagrees with his idea that it's totally cool for people to fark a 14 year old as long as they've passed some kind of arbitrary yet as-yet undefined "test of maturity"

14 years old is not even the presumptive age of informed consent according to the law.

You're accusing someone of having ephebophilic, predatory fantasies of their "teenage daughter's friends" because they called you out over trying to justify making it legal to fark a 14 year old. You then tried to justify it by pretending to know their sexual habits, or lack there-of in high school.

That is the definition of either projection, or being a total troll. Which are you doing skippy?

If you're honestly accusing someone of being a pedophile and/or ephebophile with nothing to prove that, you deserve a kick in the cods (or taco).

I am just serving a bit of his own medicine. He called me a pedophile all night for saying this: I don't think the law needs to be involved in a sexual relationship between a 14 and 18 year old. Male or Female, straight or gay.

His argument is bullshiat poisoning the well, and you know it. It's either pisspoor trolling, or projection.

He's taking the tactic of accusing his opponent of being a pedo because he disagrees with his idea that it's totally cool for people to fark a 14 year old as long as they've passed some kind of arbitrary yet as-yet undefined "test of maturity"

14 years old is not even the presumptive age of informed consent according to the law.

cybrwzrd:am just serving a bit of his own medicine. He called me a pedophile all night for saying this: I don't think the law needs to be involved in a sexual relationship between a 14 and 18 year old. Male or Female, straight or gay.

No. He called you out for attempting to create situational justification for when it would be okay to fark a 14 year old girl.

The fact of the matter is that we, as a society, have deemed this unacceptable due to the damage it can do to the 14 year old, and due to the fact that a 14 year old can be very easily manipulated by the older partner due to their immaturity and development.

You have attempted to argue that some "test" should be applied to each. individual. 14. year. old. girl, and that this as yet undefined, unproven "scientific" test will be able to tell if they're mature enough to consent to sex. That's a ridiculous, absurd argument given the logistics alone, let alone the oversimplification of a topic involving the formation of laws. While yes, a 14 year old girl who grew up on a farm, has been self-sufficient since 8 because Daddy is riding the tractor all day is emotionally different than a 14 year old in the city who has never been by herself, Society as a whole is better served by allowing a law to have mitigating circumstances, than attempting to write an all encompassing exception-to-the-rule law.

In addition to this, you're ignoring the fact that the 14 year old herself is wanting the charges to proceed, not just the parents.

You're accusing someone of having ephebophilic, predatory fantasies of their "teenage daughter's friends" because they called you out over trying to justify making it legal to fark a 14 year old. You then tried to justify it by pretending to know their sexual habits, or lack there-of in high school.

That is the definition of either projection, or being a total troll. Which are you doing skippy?

If you're honestly accusing someone of being a pedophile and/or ephebophile with nothing to prove that, you deserve a kick in the cods (or taco).

I am just serving a bit of his own medicine. He called me a pedophile all night for saying this: I don't think the law needs to be involved in a sexual relationship between a 14 and 18 year old. Male or Female, straight or gay.

Let me clarify, as long as it is consensual.

Clarification solves the issue. 16 is the age of consent, a 14 year old cannot legally consent to sex. So the law does need to be involved. And for those saying there should be some flexibility given to the law, there is, it is generally up to the parents of the minor to press charges.

hardinparamedic:Bumblefark: And, yes, the research generally points us toward the common sense idea that sexual predators tend to be men, and when those pigs go trolling for little girls, that's a actually-empirically-measurable problem.

And it's attitudes like this, and this misinformed belief, that allow female sexual predators to get away with what they do.

Men are most likely to be caught and charged. Women are most likely to not be caught, and/or passed off as "nice" by idiots at large who subscribe to this belief that men always want it.

Nah. You can't attack something as vague as an "attitude." What specifically did I say that was empirically wrong.

/and, sorry, you did your Ph.D. in criminology, where? I'm sure we've been publishing in the same journals...

Radioactive Ass:BarkingUnicorn: "Although only 13% of teens have had sex by age 15, most initiate sex in their later teen years. By their 19th birthday, seven in 10 female and male teens have had intercourse. "

Seven out of ten would be 70%.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html

I believe that the question was how many of those sexual encounters were between 18 and 14 year old individuals. You answered it by showing that even if every single sexual encounter by age 15 were with an 18 year old that it would be 13%. However I strongly doubt that that is the case. Even with an even distribution between the spectrum of 15 and 18 it would be closer to around 3% which is hardly their peers. I'd put the likelihood of 14 to 18 lower than that. 15-15 or 15-16 would be much more likely.

You put the likelihood wherever it makes you feel better, and with no other justification.

Boojum2k:Clarification solves the issue. 16 is the age of consent, a 14 year old cannot legally consent to sex. So the law does need to be involved. And for those saying there should be some flexibility given to the law, there is, it is generally up to the parents of the minor to press charges.

Pretty much this.

DAs, generally, have much better things to do than these cases. They turn into he-said, she-said cases. It usually takes a cooperative teenager now-adays to have these things go to court.

The Affidavit linked earlier in the thread pretty much illustrates the 14 year old has suffered harm, and is a willing participant in the criminal case against the 18 year old, who was 18 when the relationship began.

You're accusing someone of having ephebophilic, predatory fantasies of their "teenage daughter's friends" because they called you out over trying to justify making it legal to fark a 14 year old. You then tried to justify it by pretending to know their sexual habits, or lack there-of in high school.

That is the definition of either projection, or being a total troll. Which are you doing skippy?

If you're honestly accusing someone of being a pedophile and/or ephebophile with nothing to prove that, you deserve a kick in the cods (or taco).

Z-clipped: How about you take a step back and consider how utterly stupid a request this is?

I banged your mom when I was 14 and she was 18. That good enough for you?

By the sound of that, I'm willing to bet the only thing you banged at 14 was a crusty tube-sock with the name "Sally Palms" sharpie'd onto the tip.

I actually had quite a lot of sex in high school, mostly with women who were much older. Which is one of the reasons I think this law should be changed. It bothers me to think that some of them could still be in prison if one of my parents had objected.

Bumblefark:Nah. You can't attack something as vague as an "attitude." What specifically did I say that was empirically wrong.

Get over it. I pointed out something that you said that was not only blatantly offensive to victims of sexual assault from females, but flat wrong.

For one, that it is "common sense" that men are the most common sexual predators. This is the reason that victims of female offender sexual assault are either ignored or told to piss off.

I don't have to have anything in Criminology. I just linked you to a website of a research study on the treatment of female sexual offenders which states that females are most often underreported, and most often likely to get away with sexual assault.

His argument is bullshiat poisoning the well, and you know it. It's either pisspoor trolling, or projection.

He's taking the tactic of accusing his opponent of being a pedo because he disagrees with his idea that it's totally cool for people to fark a 14 year old as long as they've passed some kind of arbitrary yet as-yet undefined "test of maturity"

14 years old is not even the presumptive age of informed consent according to the law.

Oh bloody hell, another obtuse imbecile. Learn to read.

This person is under the impression that sexuality in someone under 14 means they must have been abused. I don't think you're dealing with the sharpest tool in the shed.

BarkingUnicorn:You put the likelihood wherever it makes you feel better, and with no other justification.

Yes. Because most 14-15 year olds hang out with 18 year olds in situations where sex is more likely to be possible than with others their own age. Keep farking that chicken. Come to think of it maybe you like that too.

JK on that last part but come on, a bit of common sense is called for. How many 14-15 year olds hang out with 18 year olds? And even if it was evenly split across the spectrum it's still ~3% of 15 year olds having sex with 18 year olds. That makes it very uncommon in and of itself.

His argument is bullshiat poisoning the well, and you know it. It's either pisspoor trolling, or projection.

He's taking the tactic of accusing his opponent of being a pedo because he disagrees with his idea that it's totally cool for people to fark a 14 year old as long as they've passed some kind of arbitrary yet as-yet undefined "test of maturity"

14 years old is not even the presumptive age of informed consent according to the law.

That's better. I am really tired of unprovable and irrefutable accusations such as "projection" or "trolling." I thought you guys liked science?

Here, have a troll: the taboo against sex with teenagers arises from parents' incestuous jealousy.

I have only one child, a son, and I'm heterosexual, so don't accuse me of projection. :P

Z-clipped:This person is under the impression that sexuality in someone under 14 means they must have been abused. I don't think you're dealing with the sharpest tool in the shed.

Really? I'm pretty sure you didn't read a damn thing I typed if you claim that.

I didn't say sexuality. I said overt sexual behaviors such as seeking out sexual partners. While it doesn't mean that someone was sexually molested or assaulted, it's a warning sign when combined with other behavors.

I see quite a few people here have never been 14-year-old girls. It is entirely normal for them to experiment with their burgeoning sexuality, usually with themselves or people their own age. It is by no stretch of the imagination unusual for a 14-year-old to play with an older teenager, even one as ancient as, shock horror gosh!, an 18-year-old. I did it myself when I was 15 and in no way was it 'child' abuse. It was interesting and at times fun.

I linked the paper in that post. Stop being obtuse with the appeals to authority.

BarkingUnicorn:Here, have a troll: the taboo against sex with teenagers arises from parents' incestuous jealousy.

Dude. Sometimes, a cigar is JUST a cigar.

On one hand, you have a point about the influence of Western morality on the arbitrary age limits of sexual consent and statutory rape. On the other hand, you have the issues of adolescent development and the formation of ability to give informed consent as the age spectrum narrows between 14 and 18.

hardinparamedic:cybrwzrd: am just serving a bit of his own medicine. He called me a pedophile all night for saying this: I don't think the law needs to be involved in a sexual relationship between a 14 and 18 year old. Male or Female, straight or gay.

No. He called you out for attempting to create situational justification for when it would be okay to fark a 14 year old girl.

The fact of the matter is that we, as a society, have deemed this unacceptable due to the damage it can do to the 14 year old, and due to the fact that a 14 year old can be very easily manipulated by the older partner due to their immaturity and development.

You have attempted to argue that some "test" should be applied to each. individual. 14. year. old. girl, and that this as yet undefined, unproven "scientific" test will be able to tell if they're mature enough to consent to sex. That's a ridiculous, absurd argument given the logistics alone, let alone the oversimplification of a topic involving the formation of laws. While yes, a 14 year old girl who grew up on a farm, has been self-sufficient since 8 because Daddy is riding the tractor all day is emotionally different than a 14 year old in the city who has never been by herself, Society as a whole is better served by allowing a law to have mitigating circumstances, than attempting to write an all encompassing exception-to-the-rule law.

In addition to this, you're ignoring the fact that the 14 year old herself is wanting the charges to proceed, not just the parents.

Once again, the idea that society is well served by charging high school seniors with a felony for having consensual sexual contact with freshmen is farking ludicrous.

hardinparamedic:The Affidavit linked earlier in the thread pretty much illustrates the 14 year old has suffered harm, and is a willing participant in the criminal case against the 18 year old, who was 18 when the relationship began.

I just read it again and don't see the 14 year-old claiming any harm, or any declaration that she is participating in her interrogation willingly.

Z-clipped:Once again, the idea that society is well served by charging high school seniors legal adults with a felony for having consensual sexual contact with freshmen 14 year olds is farking ludicrous.

Radioactive Ass:Z-clipped: Once again, the idea that society is well served by charging high school seniors legal adults with a felony for having consensual sexual contact with freshmen 14 year olds is farking ludicrous.

hardinparamedic:I linked the paper in that post. Stop being obtuse with the appeals to authority.

I can link to random stuff, too. It doesn't give me the upper hand in an argument, though.

I said that the reason we have the laws on the books that we currently do might have to do with the fact that society saw a problem with random dudes picking up their impressionable daughters and having their way with them. Prove me wrong.

I also implied that men tend to be sexual predators more often than women. I will add here, "vastly" more often. Again, prove me wrong.

And, you'll note, I never gave a pass to female predators. I jumped from the previous point to saying (without reference to gender) that clamping down on adolescent sexual experimentation (which is what this was) might not have been the "spirit of the law" as we find it on the books today. I also said that such experimentation yields just about zero evidence of harm. But again, prove me wrong.

hardinparamedic:Z-clipped: This person is under the impression that sexuality in someone under 14 means they must have been abused. I don't think you're dealing with the sharpest tool in the shed.

Really? I'm pretty sure you didn't read a damn thing I typed if you claim that.

I didn't say sexuality. I said overt sexual behaviors such as seeking out sexual partners. While it doesn't mean that someone was sexually molested or assaulted, it's a warning sign when combined with other behavors.

I linked the paper in that post. Stop being obtuse with the appeals to authority.

BarkingUnicorn: Here, have a troll: the taboo against sex with teenagers arises from parents' incestuous jealousy.

Dude. Sometimes, a cigar is JUST a cigar.

No. A cigar is always a vile, filthy, evil-smelling accessory of a douchebag (even when a hot chick smokes it). Only cigarettes are just cigarettes.

But my point is, how could you prove I was trolling with that comment, and how could I prove I wasn't? Talk of trolling is completely unscientific. Same with projection.

On one hand, you have a point about the influence of Western morality on the arbitrary age limits of sexual consent and statutory rape. On the other hand, you have the issues of adolescent development and the formation of ability to give informed consent as the age spectrum narrows between 14 and 18.

Recent research strongly indicates that brains don't fully develop until the mid-20s, explaining/excusing the impulsive and irresponsible behavior of that cohort. Why don't we extend the age of consent to 25, even though they're legally adults for many other purposes? After all, sex is often impulsive and irresponsible.