Hockey geeks please educate me on some things...

I've been a general sports fan for 32 years and know the rules, transactions, and minor league information about baseball and football yet hockey still confuses me a bit.

There are some things I know and some things I think I know. If I'm wrong please correct me.

In the NFL you put a guy on IR he is done for the season. In Hockey that's not the case. Is there a limit on how many times you can go on IR and for how long?

What's the deal with sending guys to and from the minors? Do you have X number of transactions per year or can you do it at will?

When we lost Jay Leech trying to recall him from Lowell, how did that happen? Why was he on re-entry waivers? I think it had something to do with the # of games he played in the NHL?

In Football the #1 draft choice is very valuable. In the NHL it does not seem to be as such... is there a reason for that?

When we draft a player, where do we draft them from other than college? I see we have a prospect in Sweeden named Tenby who many here seem hopeful with. How did that work? I would think he had to enter the NHL draft to be selected. Why isn't he in Lowell or another farm team of the Devils?

Minor leagues... there are Lowell which is the equivalent of baseball's triple A team, and Trenton.. double A team, and is there a single A team?

Anything else you can share about the draft, general minor leagues and such please feel free. Hockey always makes me feel a little confused with this sort of thing.

[quote name='Scoopscj' date='06 January 2010 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1262816180' post='832990']In the NFL you put a guy on IR he is done for the season. In Hockey that's not the case. Is there a limit on how many times you can go on IR and for how long?[/quote]

There are several different IR lengths but a player may go on the IR several times a season and the length is up to the GM and coaches. IR is mostly in place due to the salary cap, their cap hit freezes and they may use a substitute player.

[quote name='Scoopscj' date='06 January 2010 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1262816180' post='832990']What's the deal with sending guys to and from the minors? Do you have X number of transactions per year or can you do it at will? [/quote]

Depends on contract and age. A 2 way contract allows more fluid action to be called up and down, a 1 way freezes them in the NHL. If you send a player down who is on a 1 way contract, they may be picked up by another team who will not forfeit anything but take the cap hit. If a player is recalled after being sent down, they may be picked up for half their salary if they dont clear waivers. A player on his first contract may go from minors to majors as many times without penalty. Number of games and age okay a role in eligibility to be waived.

Example: Zharkov may be moved as many times as wishedLeach was sent down and taken off of waivers by the HabsMurphy, 1 way contract was sent down and not taken. Happened again without result and he cleared once again.

[quote name='Scoopscj' date='06 January 2010 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1262816180' post='832990']In Football the #1 draft choice is very valuable. In the NHL it does not seem to be as such... is there a reason for that? [/quote]

The number one pick in hockey is HUGE, I do not know where you got the impression it wasn't. NFL they are more likely to talk about trading it but if you have the first pick in the NHL you keep it. Tavares, Stamkos, Crosby, Ovechkin all are very valuable assets of first overall picks

[quote name='Scoopscj' date='06 January 2010 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1262816180' post='832990']When we draft a player, where do we draft them from other than college? I see we have a prospect in Sweeden named Tenby who many here seem hopeful with. How did that work? I would think he had to enter the NHL draft to be selected. Why isn't he in Lowell or another farm team of the Devils?[/quote]

They play in junior or professional leagues around the world. North America has the juniors which is comparable to a major league of young players or college level league. In Sweden and Russia for example they play in various leagues, and mostly get 3rd and 4th ice time but the potential is seen there for sure

quote name='Scoopscj' date='06 January 2010 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1262816180' post='832990']Minor leagues... there are Lowell which is the equivalent of baseball's triple A team, and Trenton.. double A team, and is there a single A team? [/quote]

Lowell would be the triple A team, Trenton would be the double A, correct. There isnt a single A but players drafted by NHL teams certainly have players in college, playing in other leagues and juniors. For example, the Devils have Urbom playing in juniors while other players like Tedenby and Jofesson are in pro leagues in Sweden. Not exactly the single A league but there are still three levels if you wish to classify it like that.

Minor leagues... there are Lowell which is the equivalent of baseball's triple A team, and Trenton.. double A team, and is there a single A team?

Not really. And the structure isn't as rigid as baseball's, but the terminology is borrowed from baseball for simplicity's sake. The AHL (American Hockey League) is the only AAA-level league, and on the AA level you have the ECHL (used to stand for East Coast Hockey League, now that the league is bi-coastal it doesn't stand for anything), CHL (Central Hockey League), and IHL (International Hockey League, not to be confused with the former AAA league of the same name). There's also the Southern Professional Hockey League which, depending on who you ask, is either A-level or a low AA.

All AHL teams are NHL-affiliated; in fact, it's in the AHL's bylaws that new teams must be NHL-affiliated. The NHL parent is usually responsible for filling the AHL team's roster, but the AHL teams can and do sign their own players if needed. All ECHL teams are also affiliated with at least one NHL-AHL combo, though the links are much looser. Usually only a few players on each ECHL team are the property of their parent clubs, and their players often get loaned to other organizations. For example, just this week Albany (Carolina's AHL team) borrowed players from Charlotte (Rangers/Hartford and Avs/Lake Erie) and Reading (Toronto and Boston) while also recalling a player from their own ECHL affiliate (Florida Everblades).

(And that's probably a hell of a lot more than you wanted to know. )

Depends on contract and age. A 2 way contract allows more fluid action to be called up and down, a 1 way freezes them in the NHL. If you send a player down who is on a 1 way contract, they may be picked up by another team who will not forfeit anything but take the cap hit. If a player is recalled after being sent down, they may be picked up for half their salary if they dont clear waivers. A player on his first contract may go from minors to majors as many times without penalty. Number of games and age okay a role in eligibility to be waived.

One-way and two-way only refers to salary. One-way means the player makes the same regardless of whether he's in the NHL or in the minors, while two-way has two different salary levels built in. There's also three-way contracts, which have different salaries depending on whether you're in the NHL, AHL or ECHL/other low minor leagues, but you don't normally see those.

It's true, though, that the one-way contract essentially freezes you in the NHL because who wants to pay a guy NHL dollars to play in the AHL? Even the NHL minimum is a heck of a lot more than your top AHL salary. That's not what exposes you to waivers, though; that relies more on age and experience.

Edited by RowdyFan42, 06 January 2010 - 11:01 PM.

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of the Devils' mascot, NJ Devil, and of all mascots far and wide.

IT IS VERY HARD TO WIN ONE STANLEY CUP, FORGET ABOUT THREE... and maybe it's high time some of you actually APPRECIATED THAT instead of treating it like it's some flipping birthright because for some random reason you rooted for the damn Devils!!!!!

"Quite frankly, all the players are getting paid too much and all the contracts are too long," general manager Lou Lamoriello said. "But if you want to compete in this market and you want to win, there are some things you have to do."

I don't think enough emphasis was put on explaining where drafted players come from. A good long explanation of the Canadian juniors system would be appreciated as they generate a ton of young talent and it doesn't really parallel the AHL structure at all, and it's not really like little league either.

And as was mentioned, a lot of talent also comes from foreign developmental leagues.

In Football the #1 draft choice is very valuable. In the NHL it does not seem to be as such... is there a reason for that?

There are a lot of differences between the two drafts. NHL players get drafted as teens and other than the top couple picks maybe aren't ready to play in the NHL for perhaps two, three years. NFL players tend to be a bit older since most go to college for at least three years and are ready to play right off. Really they have to play since the NFL has no minor league, college is the de facto minor league.

Plus the salary structure in the NFL's just out of whack. Rookies get huge contracts in the NFL (bigger than a lot of vets) while they get paid peanuts in the NHL.

And really the Pens could have named their price for Crosby if they were apt to trade him, the Isles could have traded Tavares for a lot but with so few players on the ice, that one star player makes more of an impact and it's not like you're ever so deep at a position you can't use whoever you draft. In the NFL maybe a team that's drafting #1 has their quarterback of the future and auctions off the pick to teams that need one if a guy who plays QB is the consensus #1.

okay, first, stevestevens post, while a gallant effort, has a lot of things incorrect. rather than rebut him, i'll just answer your questions directly as though he didn't already do so - but please forget most of what he said.

In the NFL you put a guy on IR he is done for the season. In Hockey that's not the case. Is there a limit on how many times you can go on IR and for how long?

there are two types of injured reserve in the NHL - regular Injured Reserve, and Long Term Injured Reserve. Regular Injured Reserve, as set out in the CBA, is for players who are hurt for a minimum of 7 days. So if you think a guy is going to be out a week, you can put him on IR, and call up a replacement from the minors without having to send anyone down. You can also put him on Injured Reserve retroactively, as Lou has done several times this season, so if a guy was hurt in a game 3 days ago, and you realize he'll be out for a few more, you can put him on IR since 3 days ago. You can only put him on there retroactive to when he last played in a game, so if he gets hurt Monday and still plays Tuesday, he can only be put on IR retroactive to Tuesday.

Long Term Injured Reserve is a salary cap thing - you can place a player on LTIR, and he's on there for a minimum of 24 days or 10 games. During this period, the player's salary effectively does not count towards the salary cap, so if a team is right up against the salary cap, they can replace this player's salary with a player of lesser or equal salary. LTIR is really only important for teams right up against it - Lou has had no need to use it this season. Contrary to what a lot of people think around here, you do not save salary cap space by using LTIR during the season.

What's the deal with sending guys to and from the minors? Do you have X number of transactions per year or can you do it at will?

you can do it at will.

When we lost Jay Leech trying to recall him from Lowell, how did that happen? Why was he on re-entry waivers? I think it had something to do with the # of games he played in the NHL?

This gets confusing, but bear with me. In the NHL, there are two types of contracts - one-way contracts, and two-way contracts. a one-way contract means that the player who signs this deal will get paid the same amount of money whether he is in the NHL or AHL. a two-way contract means that a player will get paid a different amount of money in the AHL - some amount less than his NHL contract. Let's leave that aside.

Re-entry waivers were put into place after the latest lockout to stop teams from stashing big contracts in the minor leagues to avoid the salary cap demon and simply pulling them up when needed. A player eligible for normal waivers when he is sent down to the minor leagues - which basically means that he's played 3 pro (AHL or NHL) seasons and is at least 23 years old - is also eligible for re-entry waivers when he is recalled to the NHL, unless he is on a two-way contract that pays him less than $105,000 in the AHL. stop me when this gets confusing. We lost jay leach because he makes $250,000 in the AHL, and he spent more than 40 games on the NHL roster last year (but did not play in 40 games) - there's also certain NHL game thresholds a player has to meet to be eligible for re-entry waivers. This is all according to 50.9.g.iii of the CBA.

When a player is exposed to re-entry waivers, any team can grab him (there's an order to which teams are eligible to grab him) at half his salary and half his salary cap hit, with his former team being on the hook for the remaining half. We're paying half of Jay Leach's salary even though he's no longer Devils' property.

In Football the #1 draft choice is very valuable. In the NHL it does not seem to be as such... is there a reason for that?

this is debatable, but assuming this is true, it's because football players tend to be between ages 21 and 23 when they enter the draft, whereas hockey players are 18 or 19 when they get drafted. there's therefore more information about who the best player is, and the best football players probably make more of an impact towards winning than the best hockey players; the equivalent of having the colts' 14-2 record in hockey is 71-11, which you don't see many teams doing.

When we draft a player, where do we draft them from other than college? I see we have a prospect in Sweeden named Tenby who many here seem hopeful with. How did that work? I would think he had to enter the NHL draft to be selected. Why isn't he in Lowell or another farm team of the Devils?

I think someone answered this adequately, maybe, but all players who are 18 before September 15th of the draft year, anywhere, are eligible for the NHL draft - I'm not even sure that players have to enter the draft (someone can correct me on this, as I'm not sure). Tedenby is not with the Devils' farm team because he has a contract with a Swedish professional team, and Sweden and the NHL have an agreement to honor each other's contracts.

It looks like Rowdy covered the minor leagues, so - right. I'm sure this will generate more questions, which I'll be happy to answer.

I have a question. How do waivers work? What if 2 different teams want the same player? Overall it confuses me.

waiver priority is ordered in the inverse of the standings, so right now the devils would be at the bottom with carolina at the top - the very opposite of a fair and just universe. if 2 teams put in a claim, the team with the lowest % of points gets the player.

i posted here that teams can't just go on claiming people, but that's not true.

waiver priority is ordered in the inverse of the standings, so right now the devils would be at the bottom with carolina at the top - the very opposite of a fair and just universe. if 2 teams put in a claim, the team with the lowest % of points gets the player.

i posted here that teams can't just go on claiming people, but that's not true.

Triumph... you rock. Thanks for the 411. Everyone else too, great info.

Now that I've read that, let's talk Mattias Tedenby for a second. You say he is on the Swedish team and that we honor their contracts. So... let's assume, for the sake of argument that he is having some kind of monster year, scoring at will etc. Now the Devils 'have his rights' but he is also on the Swedish team. If we want him on the Devils what happens? Do we have to wait until his contract expires? Do we buy out his contract? Can he say. "Stick it, I want to play for Sweeden?"

How does that work?

Also the #1 pick question when I read boards about trading for a rent-a-player people always throw around #1 picks as the means to get a rental player. Seems awful expensive for a rental to me.

Also the #1 pick question when I read boards about trading for a rent-a-player people always throw around #1 picks as the means to get a rental player. Seems awful expensive for a rental to me.

I think you're confusing the No. 1 overall pick with first round picks. There's only one No. 1 overall pick, and in the NHL it's pretty much the only Can't-Miss pick of the draft. The rest of the first round is a relative crapshoot. So giving up the No. 1 pick in a trade would have to net pretty significant returns, but trading away a pick somewhere in the middle of the first round isn't nearly as serious.

Off the top of my head, I can't even think of the last time a team actually traded away the No. 1 pick.

Triumph... you rock. Thanks for the 411. Everyone else too, great info.

Now that I've read that, let's talk Mattias Tedenby for a second. You say he is on the Swedish team and that we honor their contracts. So... let's assume, for the sake of argument that he is having some kind of monster year, scoring at will etc. Now the Devils 'have his rights' but he is also on the Swedish team. If we want him on the Devils what happens? Do we have to wait until his contract expires? Do we buy out his contract? Can he say. "Stick it, I want to play for Sweeden?"

How does that work?

Also the #1 pick question when I read boards about trading for a rent-a-player people always throw around #1 picks as the means to get a rental player. Seems awful expensive for a rental to me.

Thanks again guys. Appreciated.

Scoops

In Tedenby's specific case, I'm pretty sure his contract in Sweden is up after this season anyway. But yes, we'd have to wait 'til his contract was up. I'm sure this is something that's considered when a player is drafted. I would also imagine that he could decide to hell with the NHL, I wanna stay in Sweden and sign a contract there; I think there's some cases like that in the Russian leagues (example: Though he plays in Russia, the Devils still hold the rights to Vitali Vishnevski - if he decides to come back to the NHL, he would have to play for the Devils, or we'd have to release him or whathaveyou).

As for the rental player thing, I think you have to consider where the team is in the standings, and the depth of the upcoming draft. If you want a rental, you're likely in the playoffs or at least on a playoff push, which means more likely than not, the draft pick is going to wind up being a mid-to-late first round pick. If it's not a particularly deep draft, it might be worth the cost to roll the dice on a guy who can help you win immediately for a draft pick that might be 20th, 25th, 30th overall.

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As for the rental player thing, I think you have to consider where the team is in the standings, and the depth of the upcoming draft. If you want a rental, you're likely in the playoffs or at least on a playoff push, which means more likely than not, the draft pick is going to wind up being a mid-to-late first round pick. If it's not a particularly deep draft, it might be worth the cost to roll the dice on a guy who can help you win immediately for a draft pick that might be 20th, 25th, 30th overall.

For ex. the 2010 New Jersey Devils...I have a feeling our first round pick is as good as gone....

In Tedenby's specific case, I'm pretty sure his contract in Sweden is up after this season anyway. But yes, we'd have to wait 'til his contract was up. I'm sure this is something that's considered when a player is drafted. I would also imagine that he could decide to hell with the NHL, I wanna stay in Sweden and sign a contract there; I think there's some cases like that in the Russian leagues (example: Though he plays in Russia, the Devils still hold the rights to Vitali Vishnevski - if he decides to come back to the NHL, he would have to play for the Devils, or we'd have to release him or whathaveyou).

As for the rental player thing, I think you have to consider where the team is in the standings, and the depth of the upcoming draft. If you want a rental, you're likely in the playoffs or at least on a playoff push, which means more likely than not, the draft pick is going to wind up being a mid-to-late first round pick. If it's not a particularly deep draft, it might be worth the cost to roll the dice on a guy who can help you win immediately for a draft pick that might be 20th, 25th, 30th overall.

Tedenby also has the option of going to Russia next year. I know he won't, but when the KHL started up, I remember reading something here about a KHL team selecting him in their draft, so they hold his rights should he choose the KHL over the NHL.

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In regards to how can we get Tedenby to North America. There are two ways. Either his contract with the european team ends, which it will at the end of next year. Or the player includes an exit clause in the contract with his european team that allows him to sign with a nhl club after a certain season. In Tedenby's case his contract that allows him to sign with us this summer.

Additionally Tedenby never has to come over to the NHL. He can stay in Sweden/Europe/Wherever not in north america indefinitely. If this does happen, and the team is unable to sign him, the Devils will control his rights forever as European draft picks are considered "defected players" meaning they play in a league that does not have a transfer agreement with the NHL regarding the compensation paid to the European team when the player does in fact sign a NHL contract. If Tedenby does not sign within 2 years of being drafted, the Devils will receive a pick 30 spots below where he was drafted. So the 54th pick in the 2010 draft. I believe that rule only applies to first rounders.

Teams cannot sign away players under contract from foreign leagues due to an agreement between the NHL and the European leagues sanctioned by the IIHF. The NHL forbids its member teams from buying out the contracts of european players for the purpose of signing them to nhl contracts. However if the player is able to come up with his own funds to buy himself out of the contract, then sign with the NHL team, it is legal.

No one has really covered the "Where do players get drafted from" question in much detail. The short answer is everywhere. As Tri mentioned the only requirement for being drafted is age. This varies a little bit with college players due to some mundane NCAA rules, but in general players are 18 when drafted, with a few 19 and 20 year olds mixed in. Unlike football players do not "opt in" to the draft. If you are playing hockey in the world when you turn 18 you can be drafted. Players can opt out, sometimes a player who would have been 17 on his draft day will postpone himself till the next year. For North American players the draft has an age range from 17-20 depending on birthdays.

So what leagues are you drafted from? All of them. The united states is a cluster of developmental systems. High Schools, The U.S. National Development Team, the USHL a pre college junior league with players ranging from 16-20, and the NCAA. The Canadian system is a little simpler. Canadian players are generally drafted from Canadian Major Juniors(OHL,WHL,QMJHL) which are the top tier 20 and under league in the nation. Recently more and more players are being drafted out of what are tier 2 junior leagues like the BCHL. These players are generally not as skilled or polished as the major junior players OR they have plans to play at a NCAA school.

Now this brings us to the relationship between Major Juniors and the NCAA. If you played in college, you can defect to one of the major junior leagues. However if a player plays a major junior game he is ineligible to play NCAA hockey as the NCAA treats major junior players as pros. The belief is that they have been compensated for their play.

European players are drafted from their respective pro leagues. Like most european sports the leagues are tiered based upon the previous years standings. Most clubs also run Junior teams that supply the mens club with talent.

The league or country a player is drafted from determines how long the NHL team holds that persons rights. In the case of a Canadian coming from Major Junior the team has 2 years to sign the player. If after two years the parties cannot come to an agreement that player depending on the date of his birthday either re-enters the draft or becomes an unrestricted free agent for any team to sign.

For college bound players the NHL team has 5 years from the year the player was drafted. This rule was designed to encompass the age range in the draft and how it captures both high school seniors and college freshmen. If the player is not signed in this date range he becomes an unrestricted free agent for anyone to sign. This is because the player falls outside of the drafts age range.

Europeans are again treated differently. Because there is no transfer agreement between the NHL and the European nations drafted Europeans are treated as defected players and NHL teams hold their rights indefinitely.

The last wrinkle with the draft and prospects is when can a player play in the minor leagues i.e. the AHL?

A NCAA bound and European players can play in the minor leagues as soon as they are drafted. For example the Devils drafted Bergfors out of Sweden, signed him out of training camp at 18 and send him to the AHL.

Major junior players cannot play in the AHL until they are 20 by the end of that year, December 31st. So for Example Mark Fraser was drafted by the devils in 2005. Normally a player drafted in 05 would not have been able to play in the AHL until the 2007-2008 season. However because Fraser's birthday is September 29, 1986 he would be 20 before December 31, 2006. This allowed him to play in the AHL during the 2006-2007 season. This oddity exists because of an agreement between the Major Juniors and the NHL to prevent NHL teams from yanking kids away from the junior teams leaving them without top talent.

Anyone can play in the NHL at any time after being drafted or signed.

Edited by Sarge18, 07 January 2010 - 04:08 PM.

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"Jay Pandolfo's last game at Boston University was against the Wolverines," Madden said. "My job was to cover his line. Jay had scored something like 30 goals in 30 games that season. And that was his 31st game. Guess what happened?"

"We always joke about it now," Madden said. "Jay tells me: 'You shut me down that game and you've been shutting me down ever since. The only problem is, now you're playing with me. ' "

The only wrinkle with the waiver order is when a team does pick a player. When you do claim a player on Waivers you go to the last position regardless of your position in the standings. So for example if the Canes picked up a player today, they would end up in spot # 30, and the second worst team would be #1.

Ok, so the idea there is that a team cant perpetually suck and get 1st shot. I was trying to rememember how many great waiver pickups there have been in the last few years ( Mark Recchi maybe one of the best), and then I remembered that Sean Avery was picked up off waivers and if I recall, it seemed like that there some sort of deal between the Stars and Rangers to make that all happen.

The only wrinkle with the waiver order is when a team does pick a player. When you do claim a player on Waivers you go to the last position regardless of your position in the standings. So for example if the Canes picked up a player today, they would end up in spot # 30, and the second worst team would be #1.

Do you mean that if the Canes claimed a player today and next week another player is waived, the Canes are #30 in line for that player? And is it only for the next waiver or does it last all season?

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of the Devils' mascot, NJ Devil, and of all mascots far and wide.

IT IS VERY HARD TO WIN ONE STANLEY CUP, FORGET ABOUT THREE... and maybe it's high time some of you actually APPRECIATED THAT instead of treating it like it's some flipping birthright because for some random reason you rooted for the damn Devils!!!!!

Junior hockey is in the top tier of development hockey in North America. Players are age 16-20. Most North American prospects come from junior hockey, rather than college hockey. (More on this later)

The highest level of junior is "Major Junior", and there are three leagues: the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League (QMJHL), the Ontario Hockey League (OHL), and the Western Hockey League (WHL). The umbrella organization for Major Junior is the Canadian Hockey League (CHL). The NCAA considers the CHL a professional league, meaning Major Junior players lose their NCAA eligibility. CHL players are still eligible to play in the CIS (Canadian college system). Below Major Junior, there are four levels: Junior A, B, C, and D.

The USA has a junior system as well. The top league is the United States Hockey League, which is considered Tier 1 Junior A. Below that, there are Tier 2 Junior A, and Tier 3 Junior A, B, and C leagues. USA Hockey also has a National Team Development Program with U17 and U18 teams.

As far as NCAA vs. Junior in the draft, the new CBA changed draft rules for NCAA players. Previously, players going to college had to opt-in to the draft. This meant college players were generally at least a year older than the minimum age for the draft class. That rule has been eliminated. So now, players planning on going to college are drafted before they've even played a game in the NCAA unless they miss the draft cutoff (e.g. Jordan Schroeder) or go to college early. They're being drafted out of high school, Junior A, or the NTDP. This is why it's so much rarer now to see players being drafted out of college. Though even before this rule, from 1990-2001 there were 5 times as many prospects drafted from the CHL than the NCAA.

Yeah, there are a lot of options, even just in North America. It's not a linear progression like football. But that's what makes the NHL draft such a crapshoot... how a guy like Lundqvist can get drafted in the 7th round, and guys like Madden and Rafalski can go undrafted.

Do you mean that if the Canes claimed a player today and next week another player is waived, the Canes are #30 in line for that player? And is it only for the next waiver or does it last all season?

Actually i was wrong, and have edited the previous post. Tri's explanation is correct, claiming players has no impact on priority list. Im getting the new CBA mixed up with the old one.

Edited by Sarge18, 07 January 2010 - 04:08 PM.

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"Jay Pandolfo's last game at Boston University was against the Wolverines," Madden said. "My job was to cover his line. Jay had scored something like 30 goals in 30 games that season. And that was his 31st game. Guess what happened?"

"We always joke about it now," Madden said. "Jay tells me: 'You shut me down that game and you've been shutting me down ever since. The only problem is, now you're playing with me. ' "