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And one more thing: For me personally, try as I might...I am having an increasingly difficult time separating this subject of HIV/AIDS from healthcare in general in my mind. The two just seem so intertwined...with HIV/AIDS showing the ways our current system is working- and the multitude of ways in which it isn't. Increasingly, AIDS is becoming a conceptual representation of how our system serves the population at large. Not just us, but everyone. I know this has been the case from the beginning, it just seems to be glaring brighter and brighter in my face with each coming day. I think ACT UP is onto something with their anniversary choice.

I'm uber-good friends with a guy who knows people with lots of money who do all the Virginia Pride stuff (he also has lotsa money and does Va. Pride as well...) given our proximity to DC, they doubtless have major experience with things like this.

I'll need some specifics to sell to him... I don't know anything about this sort of thing, but I think the sort of experience he has would be invaluable.

Andrew, as far as "taking things to politicians," that's going to happen too.

Polls indicate healthcare coverage is a major concern for the American public. As we get closer to the 2008 election those doll babies are going to be confronted everywhere about what they're going to do about healthcare. We'll see some it reflected in the 2007 election, although far fewer national offices are up for grabs then.

Hillary, Obama et al are going to have to declare themselves on this issue and we're not going to accept coverage for children as enough. We want the whole deal for everyone. And anyone who says oh but how can that be done?, well, that isn't going to fly. Once the focus shifts to how to make universal healthcare work then the energy can go into accomplishing that instead of just cosmetic stuff.

We don't need a nosejob on health care. We need a heart and brain transplant.

Slogans? Here are some maybes....

INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH

HEALTHCARE IS NOT A LUXURYHEALTHCARE IS A RIGHT

STOP HEALTHCARE FOR CONGRESS UNTIL ALL AMERICANS HAVE COVERAGE

REPEAL HEALTHCARE FOR POLITICIANS UNTIL ALL AMERICANS HAVE COVERAGE

HA! I love this last slogan Andy. Boy wouldn't that get thier attention.

I'm so sick of hearing about just children. And, I was astonished that Lance Armstrong is already getting so much publicity for his plight to get all the funding for cancer. I like some of his ideas, and he has some points about overall cost savings to the system if we implemented things we have to save lives for various types of cancer. Perhaps, something similar could be used for pushing the AIDS crisis.

In addition to the above mentioned slogans/chants....NO MORE WAITING LISTS

WAITING LISTS KILLbut those are HIV specific,

I do really like the entire platform that ACTUP has formulated. God/dess I'd like to be in the Apple for this one.

In addition, I would like to add, that I do understand, and respect A2H's thought process, but we won't get this kind of opportunity for quite some time, and I think the rest of our citizens are just as 'bristly/titillated' as we are on this one.

Remember the old adage; The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 07:46:57 PM by Lisa »

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No Fear No Shame No StigmaHappiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

I say ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC,CNN, and C-SPAN are a good start! Especially at a time when the pundits are trying the hardest to pretend they care.It's all still getting the word out, and hopefully we can engender a national dialogue at the very least.

all those were there for the 2 day Bill Clinton presentation, Bono's RED campaign, ThinkMTV, etc. Nothing significant has ever come about from it, has it?

they were all there for the imigrant march as well........15 mins of fame, after 3 or 4 days the general public put it to rest. They certainly didnt gain what they set out to. simply because they concentrated into one area, and that area happened to be....the political doorstep.

with HIV, people want what works, truth is a rare commodity now-a-days, but to everyday people in this society its a precious commodity, to the politicians it means nothing......who ya gonna take it to?

example: if there was 100 that said yes ill go march......thats only one hundred. Take that same 100, educating thier own communities, and lets say thier villages were 1000 people strong, those 100 voices could turn into 100,000 without the politicians involved.......those 100,000 tell one person each it doubles.....you get the picture?....go out in the snow, roll the snowball in the snow......only the snow that comes in direct contact with it, will stick to, and accompany it, the more ya roll it, the bigger it gets....but again, it ONLY grows with direct contact

by marching in washington, your snowball is only coming into direct contact with media, and thats it....I'm doing some really cool, things with my work, and so far.....everyone i have rolled it over has stuck to it, putting it on tv isnt direct contact, unless your content is so great that it captivates peoples attention from the start. Thats almost impossible, when so many before you have ruined the interest in HIV. soley because they all do the same, say the same....a march will only yield results for you, as it has anyone who has marched....and thats a quick pacifier, and it stops there* you want to march in area that everyone else has before you, ask yourself.....will the people of washington see this as just another protest? because if they do, you will fail. You have to look at the whole picture all the time. I can tell you from experience, you will make more progress doing something different, thats effective in each of your communities, than you will putting all the effort into a march, and sure ya can return everyday but who's gonna do that, the media will pull out after one day, theres too much other stuff for them to cover and even then, you dont even get to express your point.

In closing BIG change is actually a whole lot of little changes, that are done consecutively, and consistantly.....starting small yields big results...

In light of some of the wonderful slogans presented here by Andy and others in response to Lisa's call for a march on Washington- - - While details of a date must be worked out- This year for those who cannot wait, next Spring to coincide with all the presidential primaries nationwide, next Summer when young people are out of school or next Autumn just before the elections, that must be decided...The enthusiasm of Tim (Moffie) and so many others is heartening and crucial as well...Count me in !!!

An idea I thought would be one that might even make the most loyal, patriotic, flag-waving Americans proud (especially if they have been put out of work recently or for quite a while now and have no health care) is a RED, WHITE and BLUE health care card for ALL Americans...The red would be for doctor visits, the white for pharmaceutical coverage as well as dental and optical and the blue specifically for hospitalization...Everyone would get a card and have a PIN number which they could change by phone or internet in the event of loss of such card. The logistics of how already insured working Americans would be part of it still would have to be worked out but it could be a style similar to Canada's and Europe's so NO American would ever be without, have to live in desparate fear of illness or go broke from limits on insurance coverage, being turned down for care or a prolonged illness not covered entirely by the board of directors of care providers and insurance companies.

I would inform my union shop steward when the details were worked out- I am a member of CWA- Communications Workers of America and some co-workers are in DC37- a major union and political force.

Keep on truckin'

Jody

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"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world". "Try to discover that you are the song that the morning brings."

And doctors started listening to and monitoring patients why? Because of the sign painting and bitching that you were maligning above.

nope, they started listening, because the people, not the politicians wanted answers, answers no one at that time could give, had nothing to do with protests or signs, or people bitching. I had to do with death, history will repeat itself, in the fact that many more of will have to die, before substantial progress is made. If you call the last 25 yrs progress, you are blinded by thier bullshit. the mortality rate hasnt changed in over 10 years....and yeah, lets factor in the "progress" with medicines, once the pharma realized they were being backed by the politicians to make some fat cash, THATS when the meds came about. and if you call 2.9 million deaths a year, even with meds, progress....well then its no wonder HIV is where its at, presently.

WOW Jody!I wish I knew how/could move a post, because what you just said was really profound!Maybe we can get one of the admins to give it it's own place, because I think others need to read it too, as a stand alone subject. WOW again.What a great idea.What a great start.

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No Fear No Shame No StigmaHappiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

nope, they started listening, because the people, not the politicians wanted answers, answers no one at that time could give, had nothing to do with protests or signs, or people bitching. I had to do with death, history will repeat itself, in the fact that many more of will have to die, before substantial progress is made. If you call the last 25 yrs progress, you are blinded by thier bullshit. the mortality rate hasnt changed in over 10 years....and yeah, lets factor in the "progress" with medicines, once the pharma realized they were being backed by the politicians to make some fat cash, THATS when the meds came about. and if you call 2.9 million deaths a year, even with meds, progress....well then its no wonder HIV is where its at, presently.

Is this tone indicative of what is presented through your snowballing AIDS education program? Just curious.

And, for the record: You are saying that ACT UP, people like Larry Kramer etc (carefully working to avoid bringing others out by name here from the forums) had nothing to do with that early progress? But you said things happened ''because the people, not the politicians, wanted answers". Weren't they...and aren't we now an example of ''the people'' screaming for answers?

Oh, wait...that's right. There hasn't been any progress at all ...I'm blinded by ''their bullshit'' for thinking so. And I guess you are right: marches and speeches in Washington never amount to anything. What was Martin Luther King thinking?

We've got better things to talk about Tim...like you providing the link to Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon's website. He presented his plan for universal health care in the Senate this week and it is a doozy. A must read and a starting point for all of us. I am a computer retard so help an ol' gal out, google Ron Wyden and take it from there. I proclaim from this point forward this thread contains no naysaying!!

In light of some of the wonderful slogans presented here by Andy and others in response to Lisa's call for a march on Washington- - - While details of a date must be worked out- This year for those who cannot wait, next Spring to coincide with all the presidential primaries nationwide, next Summer when young people are out of school or next Autumn just before the elections, that must be decided...The enthusiasm of Tim (Moffie) and so many others is heartening and crucial as well...Count me in !!!

An idea I thought would be one that might even make the most loyal, patriotic, flag-waving Americans proud (especially if they have been put out of work recently or for quite a while now and have no health care) is a RED, WHITE and BLUE health care card for ALL Americans...The red would be for doctor visits, the white for pharmaceutical coverage as well as dental and optical and the blue specifically for hospitalization...Everyone would get a card and have a PIN number which they could change by phone or internet in the event of loss of such card. The logistics of how already insured working Americans would be part of it still would have to be worked out but it could be a style similar to Canada's and Europe's so NO American would ever be without, have to live in desparate fear of illness or go broke from limits on insurance coverage, being turned down for care or a prolonged illness not covered entirely by the board of directors of care providers and insurance companies.

I would inform my union shop steward when the details were worked out- I am a member of CWA- Communications Workers of America and some co-workers are in DC37- a major union and political force.

Keep on truckin'

Jody

Hey Jody,

A clever and creative idea. Americans love our plastic! I like this idea, but I don't see how it was rolled into the topic. Maybe, I missed something? How would the card be presented or incorporated into a March?

I love your idea for our debate on a Proposal for Universal healthcare under another thread. Would be a Hell of a campaign gimic.

you know something moffie,how old are you? and you cry like this? For 2 years i have sat back and and respected people for being people. I have watched your leader sell everyone of you out...to POZ magazine. For your information, my site...people get banned for slamming aidsmeds,or any other forum community. The problem here is the norm for AM, its this way or no way. Lets throw the hate cards, the gay cards, whatever cards ya want.

Fact is, aidsmeds, isnt abouts aids or meds, its only about gay issues, gay dramas, and gay politics. It didnt start this way, in fact it started at the body, when tim horn and staley were there, you,moffie, as well....you couldnt turn it into a gay site, so here ya are. You run off all that are actually IMPACTING people, Loreen, John, Trish....and why? because they stated something you didnt agree with? CRY ME A RIVER.

To POZ magazine: Are you ready for what these now contracted associates of yours, are about to put you in? Are you ready to answer up for the Origin of Drama Queens to be linked with POZ magazines, new addition...the POZ forums? The leader of the brigade also happens to be one who willfully and knowingly allows the of illegal drug distribution ring that goes on here. You guys give HIV a bad name. I cant wait to see this media circus, drawing attention to your illegal activities, that cant be hidden, because once posted, they copy to every server database through which they travel.

I simply offered you guys some insight in territory you want to tread, but yet havent.....by someone who has been traveling it. <maybe thats what burns your ass, because someone else is doing more then you are able to. Hell i could care less, if i was impressed with this site I would have made it home. I have watched the selfish inmature crybabies here, run off people who solely addressed HIV, but because they wanted you to remove your gay politics from HIV, ya ban them, ya time em out. LOL my site is actually opposite, we talk about HIV, and what we are doing in real lives,real communities...in fact Ric wilke was banned for bringing his gay politcal parade there. Label me homophobic, those who know me, know differently. It's just the bunch that has stagnated here, that give the rest of em a bad name. Those who act like the world owes them something, owe I'm gay, you hurt my little feelings. Youre homophobic, because you told me the truth about me....blah blah blah. Get over yourselves, before you even attempt to win over others.

i suppose i could stoop to your levels, and post the things said about you guys here, by your own. But i wont, I will say this, even the more respected here, don't like it here. They just too damned afraid to say something, because it will be the same result with them,as it has been with everyone else who told you how they felt and ya cant blame em, you guys act like 3 yr olds here. Even the most respected here, have expressed interest in what I am doing at my site. LOL

Thunter: this thread is the perfect example of what you guys are TRUELY about here at aidsmeds. You were all agreeable,and chummy with my post....until you realized you werent gonna get my ideas,my plans,my achievements* You guys cant get past your own issues of "self" yet you want to tackle something this big?LMFAO.

your 15 mins of fame is not what you are remembered for. You will be remebered for the investigation it launched into the originators of that march....POZ magazine. Read thier terms, everything you type here, becomes thier property to do with you as THEY wish, will they take the fall for you though? There's a right way, and a wrong way to go about things, and you guys just cant handle someone telling you you are going about it wrong. and THAT action speaks loud and clear...this is no HIV march, its geared,fueled,and formulated by gay rights activists, not HIV actvists. HIV activists address HIV issues only, first and foremost.

someday even you shallow followers will see the true colors of your "leaders" here at AM. they sold out TheBody, not because of HIV, because they couldnt get thier own childish way there. Go over there and read it, its still over there. then thier "commitment" became aidsmeds, they built it up, with the sole intentions of selling it out to POZ magazine. Notice who got hired,and who got say in who was hired? Your fearless leader themselves. Have they expressed any type of appreciation or gratitude to any of you? Has anyone recieved compensation for thier input here....theres 3,000 plus here, how many are making money of majority? You all are blind. and just like any other commitment, horn,staley, and valez has made in the past....this too is only temporary. HIV does two things, two things which oneself can actually control (1) it opens your mind to reality or (2) it closes the mind to reality. and Im not the only one who will say, the minds here are closed when it comes to HIV, open when it comes to GAY....both 3 letter words, different letters.

You can say what ya want about me, personally i could give a rats ass what anyone thinks. Put me on the sacred grill and roast me til im crispy, none of ya "know" me. and doing so....well it just proves me right. Ban me, for being "homophobic", or presenting the truth in your face,or having my own opinion. this shows that AGAIN, the level of decrimination that truely exists and goes on here. just another thing POZ will someday have to answer up for. next time, choose a little more carefully whom you choose to personally attack, as this one wont take it lying down, he will make you own up to your actions*

and you can thank moffie,and Thunter for what comes of this attack* perhaps the day of making sure your brains are loaded before shooting your mouth off, has arrived.

Yipes! I wish I had the time to read all of this right now, but I have to get out for just a bit. Can't wait til later....It reads like this guy is really angry with me. I don't quite get why just yet. Oh, well.

If there is even a smidgen of truth the the above post, I will respectfully bow out and leave the planning of this event to others. I will NOT stand in the way of progress.

In my own defense.

I have been an HIV/AIDS activist for 25 years in some connection or another.I continue to work LOCALLY and nationally with HIV/AIDS issues.I have developed several Educational presentations for many types of audiences from children, to adults, to retirees.I have a Certificate in Education from San Francisco City College.I have been a public speaker and writer since childhood.

Oh hell, what is the purpose,I quit.I will not be the leverage for some asshole from God knows where, so my presence is certainly not needed here anymore.

Please go to AIDS2HIV and view the site, it is a true mess and a shame to HIV work.

I'm done!

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The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,and 362 to heterosexuals.This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals, It's just that they need more supervision.Lynn Lavne

I'm not gay. Full response to his State of The Union address to follow when I compose myself some.

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

I don't even know where to start, really, and am really a bit too befuddled by your missive to formulate any sort of logical responses.

However, I should point out that neither Peter or I have had anything to do with TheBody.com. Too bad, I guess, because it sounds as if the sinister homosexual agenda that "couldn't turn it into a gay site" could have used our help!

And don't think for a second that POZ doesn't love its association with flaming Peter, Andy, and myself. We've started a FABULOUS pool at the office, collecting bets on what you're going to be wearing to the Oscars for that Academy Award-winning performance. I say Valentino; Peter and Andy are betting on the Chanel.

Kisses,

Tim Horn

Edited to say that I'm heartily encouraging you to go back to your gay agenda-free, protest free, ACT-UP free, drug recycling program-free, and -- most importantly -- AIDSmeds-free website. In all honesty, it sounds as if you're so busy fighting what AIDS isn't, that you haven't quite figured out to fight what it is.

A2HI do not know why you felt so strongly that you had to come here and make such a monumental effort to strike down the people who are trying to make an effort to afford positive change.Why did you find it so irresistible to come and berate the very people who forged the way for you and I.I am really hurt by your verbal assault.If you do not wish to contribute in a positive manner, then please do not continue to post with this venom here.No one asked you to step in here and be our moral police force.I respect your opinions up to the point that you made this a forum to denigrate the very people who made this place a home for me.If you want to help, please give us an outline of the educational process you have described.I won't rise to answer the baiting comments you have made, but I know I have never done anything to you that would invite this diatribe.I am at a loss right now, and will go outside for awhile.I am very sad at this moment.

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No Fear No Shame No StigmaHappiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

I am so tired of this crap! First off Moffie, from what I can tell there was only one person on here that said anything negative in regards to you, everyone else is very supportive. So why all the drama. I think AIDS2HIV made some valid pts in his first post, last one was really not necessary. Except I do have to agree with him on one thing and that being that it seems when something gets rolling in one direction and then a post goes up that expresses a different view everyone gets all bent out of shape. Someone starts attacking and then before you know it the slams have become so nasty and immature the thread is locked or several warnings are issued to tone it down. (I don't think examples are needed, but just in case and forgive me if the titles aren't quite right...."Health care is a right" thread, several of the "I'm poz, I don't care fuck me" threads, "Angered to tears" thread and those are just in the past week .) Everyone needs to get real and concentrate on the topic at hand. Also, I see nothing wrong with dissenting opinions. I will agree that some opinions are ludicrous, but don't attack the messenger, just the message. No group needs to be 100% agreeable on every issue and just because we are all HIV+ doesn't mean we all will agree.

If you are serious about something like this, then you best be ready for lots of naysayers, with the positive reasons it will work and is needed. Finally, maybe someone who has a different view, might actually add something to the idea.

Just my 2 cents worth,Woods

EDITED: Of course I don't know all the baggage that obviously is between H2A and others. But I stand by my post in regards to respecting dissenting opinions.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 03:59:39 PM by woodshere »

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

1st off, I dont think anyone sold anyone here. im not paying to be here. I am not owned by this site or even defined by it. Those who were running AIDSMEDS aligned themselves with a natural ally and consolodated to media avenues into a more seamless one. We are not slaves to be sold, we are here of our own free will as are YOU.

2nd. The gay issues. ARE YOU HIGH? This site is about so much MORE than that. Hell this very thread has 5 or 6 different people from strikingly DIFFERENT backgrounds talking about HIV and healthcare. There's no GAY in this. You come off strikingly homophobic even while playing the even my friends know im not card (better known as the "My best friend is gay" card). I dont know of the drama of Loreen, John and Trish, I was just beginning to know them. But it really also doesnt matter. We are talking about a new idea here, not old ones. You had an idea once. Anyone piss on your parade while you were getting ready for it? It happens. Thats not the issue either.

3rd. Illegal drug activities. Christ you make it sound like we are dealing HEROIN! (Note to the DEA, We are NOT dealing Mr. Brownstone!) If you have ever given someone you know and love an asprin you are in effect playing Dr and can be held legally liable for thier health at that point if something goes wrong. Please dont bring that kind of stuff to this site, someone on this forum has a big heart and the ability to help those of us that come up short. UNLIKE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Which again is why we are doing what we are doing! And as how it plays in the media, do you NOT think that I for one would be unable to spin it as an us against the system fucking MEDIA STORM?!?!?! Don't underestimate the power of the will of the people. It didnt work out so well for the British back in the 1770's if you recall.

4th. You didnt offer insight. You said, and im paraphrasing, "Dont do what you plan on doing its a stupid and inefficient idea. DO WHAT I DO. Its much better than what you morons are putting together." This is basically what you said, and if not its how it came out. Then Thunt asks you for ideas on how you did your thing and you get STINGY? Tell us to do what you do and then not tell us what or how you do it, does that make ANY SENSE? No. Nobody owes me shit. My family is in the upper 2% of the population of the world as far as economics go and I realize and appreciate HUMBLY everything I have. And I came from nothing. My grandfather and father came from nothing. So dont label me or anyone else on here as people who feel they are OWED something. I give my gay bretheren in arms this fact, they should be able to enjoy ALL the rights of everyone else goddamnit, let them marry. They are OWED this by the very constitution of this country!

5th. I will not attempt to demean your site as I have not been there, yet. I shall check it out now that I have entered into a "dialogue" with you. But dont confuse peoples "interest in your site" as an all out approval of what you have to say regarding this thread and what we are trying to do. It doesnt correlate.

6th. If you cared about your cause why WOULDNT you share it? Get down off the soapbox for a minute and join in and try to implement and add to the conversation rather than say "you idots dont know what you are doing, do what I do!". Take your OWN advice and try to touch someone on here and see if that voice doubles.

7th. There is no GAY activist stuff in what we are talking about. Lisa isnt gay as far as I know. I'm not (dont laugh here guys) gay. This is about HEALTH and HIV not gay rights. Again you come off homophobic. We arent seeking 15 minutes of fame. We are seeking a National Surge in action and attention to a VERY hot topic right now. Healthcare! If you watch the news you might know that.

8th. You keep referring to the selling out. So I will keep referring to the 1770's. There were a few gentleman back then that didnt agree with the status quo, they decided to "SELL OUT" and become their own country. If I recall this worked out fairly well for them. They came up with a pretty nifty country you now call home. It is THAT country and their ideals I believe are being held up by this forum and by this planned march. They didnt sit idly by. They chose action. And I'm not talking about "telling your neighbor to tell his neighbor to fuck the british" im talking about GLOBAL action. The French were brought in, the British were obviously involved Mexico half got the shaft all because a few guys didnt like to get taxed for no reason. If they tried one person at a time we'd be drinking tea and eating crumpets singing GOD SAVE THE QUEEN right about now!

9th. Who cares who makes the money on this site. Its not what its about. I didnt come here as some sort of AMWAY scam looking to pad my retirement accounts! I came here for support and ideas and I've found that time and again. I dont think anyone's mind is closed to HIV are you KIDDING me. Have you read the heart wrenching posts of those who have lost friends or are fighting depression and isolation? Forget about minds, is your heart closed? People deal with HIV everyday here in VERY real ways. There is also a distraction this forum provides and that I feel is probably the MOST beneficial part of it. I can make fun of, talk about, laugh about, cry about HIV and not have to think about who is reading or listening to me. Im not worried about if im making someone (like a family member) uncomfortable when I tell them what im going through. They listen here, they inspire here, they support here. Get over the gay stuff man, its distracting.

Finally, Ive got nothing against you. I dont know you. I havent made it a priority TO know you. I cant for everyone on this board. Here's your chance. There is going to be a TON of attention for awhile on this thread. Show who you are. Are you committed to HIV and Healthcare? Share your ways. Inspire others. Thats what leaders do. They cause a ripple effect that grows exponentially upon itself until it is sustained by its very existence. Is that you?

ACinKC OUT!

« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 04:32:17 PM by ACinKC »

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

By the way. There wasnt a negative response to A2H until post 37. We pretty much said thanks but no thanks to his ideas. He came back in pounding his chest about how his way is the only way and that we were stupid for thinking anything else.

So woods, we looked at his opinions, didnt want to implement them, which is the right of the group and he got pissed because of it.

Why does he keep coming back is what I ask myself. If I walk into a group meeting throw some ideas at them and nothing sticks or its WAY against what I think should be done I wouldnt STAY and then try to convince everyone of my way. Hell, that would be like a Muslim walking into one of those Christian Focus on the Family 100,000 member gatherings and saying "ummm SCUSE ME, you all are going to hell. How about I tell you why!" It just makes no sense.

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

I will gladly sell my soul to Satan, Poz Magazine, The Body.com or any other entity if it results in health care coverage for all. That is the focus, and I hope that is the goal. Everybody get your chips off your shoulders...there is plenty of room for everyone to jump on the HIV bandwagon. For once can we try and put personalities aside? This is already becoming a thread that is veering away from the topic at hand. Lisa listen to me...I know you get easily distracted by shiny objects ;Dbut you dear fearless leader must not become distracted by those who continue to beat that dead horse. Some find it very difficult to let go of the past or old lovers. Moff, sorry friend but you are way too old to act like a baby ;Dso shut up, you are back in the game and there is nothing you can do about it. Don't make me come over there!

So where were we...if I remember correctly, and shut out all the white noise, we were about to plan our million aids march. Let us leave that other nonsense alone and get on with it.

My biggest priority is figuring out a way to get Poz.com to license my Sam's likeness. How does wieners without HIV sound....too gay?

<---Tucks his tail and apologizes proFUSELY for veering toward yet another shiny object!!!!

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

Woodshere, Quote:Of course I don't know all the baggage that obviously is between H2A and others. But I stand by my post in regards to respecting dissenting opinions.

I respect your dissenting view of my decision to leave this conversation, however; if you don't know the background of the above poster, please don't slap my hand and tell me I need to listen to his very negative crap!

For the rest;

I have had some time to think about my very rapid decision to leave this conversation/movement, and at the same time, had a very nice chat with the Chair of the Board, along with a really nice lady on the Rock; and for the following, I will not leave.

This decision had absolutely nothing at all to do with what is called here, way too often.....DRAMA and everything to do with self preservation. Lately I have been very distraught over my inability to deal with the internet and nasty people. Hear me out! If I were in a conference room and having a good planning meeting for such an event as this, and the people present were having a nice brainstorm and then a nasty hateful person, as above, were to enter the room and start telling us all that everything we were doing would come to no good, and the only way that anything would work is to do it their way; guess what, I would send them from the room in great haste, without saying a word to them.. I DO NOT have to listen to all comers, and all that everyone has to say. That is the difference between real experience and bullshit.

On top of that, while reading his spew, I had to go to the bathroom twice and get rid of plenty of my own spew, but mine was a bit more organic.

See, when we forget that MANY of the readers on this site are having huge health problems and many are actually struggling to stay alive with HIV coursing throughout their bodies; why is it that I or anyone else here MUST tolerate bullshit that the giver of same shit would not tolerate for one second in their lives? Please ....... anyone........ please tell me why I must put up with that...... Please tell me ..... Please....

For that reason, and also for the reason that a very good friend of mine, Lisa, requested; I will not leave, as I feel like my experience and my talents are needed here and for my good health and the betterment of my own CD4 cells, I will continue to remain active here and donate all the time that I can afford without jeopardizing my own health.

I am sorry for causing any grief here, and Lisa, I did it! And yes Ann, I did it without the flame growing beyond the pilot light. Well, at least I think I did.

I remain,Tim..../M

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The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,and 362 to heterosexuals.This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals, It's just that they need more supervision.Lynn Lavne

See, when we forget that MANY of the readers on this site are having huge health problems and many are actually struggling to stay alive with HIV coursing throughout their bodies; why is it that I or anyone else here MUST tolerate bullshit that the giver of same shit would not tolerate for one second in their lives? Please ....... anyone........ please tell me why I must put up with that...... Please tell me ..... Please....

<--raising his hand like a little boy who doesnt quite want to tell the teacher what he thinks but gives the answer anyway....

Cause thats life man. Thats why. If you want something done that isnt easy to do in the first place (if anyone knows this its you) you are going to have issues. This is just the first one. Next time someone gets you that riled up, just point at me and say "YOU handle them". That way you can stay on task and focus on what needs to be done instead of the bullshit. Which I happen to be excellent at recycling and putting to good use!!! Im here for ya!

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

Wow. I am still trying to figure out how I managed to get pegged as one of the chief names involved in some ensuing investigation of AM and POZ or whatever. I'm looking back through all of posts on this topic, and I am trying to see how what I posted was such an ''attack'' on anyone...let alone how I have been instrumental in the demise of AM or whatever. Truthfully, there were just enough spelling and grammar errors in the epic post I am referencing that I was not completely able to follow all of the, um....logic of it. Oh, and that * that kept popping up over and over...I kept looking for a footnote or further clarification to come along with those and never saw one. I still don't know quite what all of that is about.*

Anyway, when I look back at my posts to A2H, all I see is that I said, "If you don't think this we are talking about is a viable way to go, can you further illustrate for me what it is you have in mind?" Isn't that what I did? Of course, that illustration never came. If that is what he means by me being chummy, then yes I was. I said at the beginning of this thread that I am someone who does not have experience in large-scale activism efforts...at least not in the HIV realm. I have some experience working for advocacy for people with developmental disabilities. I wasn't trying to ''get'' your plans, your acheivements etc. I was only asking to be shown what your plan was out of a possible interest in what you had in mind. I am gay, yes. I am not trying to force any ''gay agenda'' with regards to HIV. I am admittedly seeing a connection between healthcare for those with HIV and healthcare for our nation as a whole. Guilty as charged on that one.

And this ''illegal drug ring'' you mentioned...I was completely thrown by that one- until I realized you might be referring to the meds sharing thing. Well, to that I will go on record (in files that will surely be stored forever far and wide, as you say) that YES, I fully support that happening if it needs to happen. If that ever meant me being sent to jail, I suppose I would lock myself in the cell...and sleep like a baby for it. File Under: Civil Disobedience on that one. I will opt for doing what I know is right in my heart over what is necessarily legal. If it means helping to keep someone alive, put me in the slammer. It is this collapsing health system that forces people like us to take steps like that. It is that system that will set these feet stepping toward Washington.

To POZ magazine: Are you ready for what these now contracted associates of yours, are about to put you in? Are you ready to answer up for the Origin of Drama Queens to be linked with POZ magazines, new addition...the POZ forums? The leader of the brigade also happens to be one who willfully and knowingly allows the of illegal drug distribution ring that goes on here. You guys give HIV a bad name. I cant wait to see this media circus, drawing attention to your illegal activities, that cant be hidden, because once posted, they copy to every server database through which they travel.

Well, they don't call me Don Alfonso de Colombo for nothing....

Lisa... if does, in fact, turn out that my Atripla isn't working... I am giving you whatever meds I have left over to give to someone who needs them. Is that OK?

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

Thanks for answering my question, and at the same time, volunteering to help me not to have to accept such BS. I doubt if you even comprehend how nice and helpful your post was. I will remember it forever. Thanks so very much... You - da - man!!

Tim,

For a bit of clarification on the DRUG RING, we have been recycling drugs here in the southwest for years now. The only person in the chain that is breaking the law, and we got this from an unnamed State Attorney General, is the person that the drugs were prescribed to. All the others in the chain are faultless under the law. So, when anyone from the "other" website comes up short on their meds and they need to have drugs immediately or loose their adherence; well, I guess they will have to create their own Illegal Drug Ring to accommodate their need. OR, we could be really magnanimous HIV activists and try to keep them alive with some of ours. HMM time will tell won't it?

Thanks for being there guys and for the friendly and well aimed "Bitch Slap" Andrew. I gotta say only one thing, I guess I needed that!

In RespectTim../M

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The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,and 362 to heterosexuals.This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals, It's just that they need more supervision.Lynn Lavne

"Your Honor, I plead guilty to helping someone get medication in an emergency in the first degree. I know that's on par with heroin trafficking and I've just made everyone with HIV look like Bobby Brown... I am so, so sorry... I hang my head in shame."

I appreciate that I have been asked back for this important event, and will certainly do what (and whom) I can to help.

But see, I’ve been sick. For a while now. With PCP, which, I am discovering, is not cured outright by the meds. It will take months for me to recover, if indeed I do at all. As it stands, I lack the physical strength or the emotional stability to endure or ignore the flame-baiting that drove me from here.

I did not want to go. I had to. I was spending huge amounts of emotional energy combating what I saw as complacency and bullying on these forums. I was getting seriously invested in fabrications made to me, and about me. It was hurting my health – health I did not have to spare.

I went away because my eyes were opened in Montreal, to the good or bad that lives in people, and the real motivation behind much of the drama online. I learned a lot, and intend to retain that education. It was one of the most, if not THE most enlightening experiences of my adult life. And I mean that in the good way AND the bad way.

There are heroes on this site, who are struggling to do good amidst a sea of denial and apathy. Lisa is one. Her personal life, if you have not followed it as expressed here in threads, has been an F-4 tornado for months now. Family issues, death, and of course her own precarious health should have totally sidelined her. Would have killed many of us. Sure would have killed me.

But not only does she post words of encouragement here, but she also continues with the med sharing program which she started, to which I have eagerly contributed without a shred of guilt. Only reason I have stopped is that I have actually started TAKING those meds again. So for the moment, no extras. And now, she wants to do THIS? Holy crap. With what she’s been through, I’m shocked she spends a single moment sober, much less productive.

That ANYONE would choose to disparage that is unconscionable.

And the saddest thing is, AIDS2HIV had some valid points, but they were lost in the personal attacks. Want to start a thread about how Tim and Andy and Peter are whores to the system? By all means. But this was not the place. Want to start a thread about how Lisa’s underground railroad of these hideously expensive meds is wrong? By all means, start it.

Strawman arguments and personal attacks, along with off-topic and insulting posts do two things. They derail the original discussion entirely (which is usually the intention) and they cause people who do not have the intestinal fortitude to defend themselves or others to leave the forums.

I freely admit I don’t have the fortitude. Not now, maybe not anymore. I sleep maybe three hours at a stretch. I type more stuff from the bathroom than the desk. Night sweats and a seemingly constant fever keep me teetering between exhaustion and despair more often than I like to admit. And the meds I am taking to treat these issues are also causing them.

I'm not bitching. Well I am a little. But I enjoyed YEARS of terrific health even after my diagnosis. It's taken a LONG time for AIDS to find me. But it did. And now the only battles I have the energy to fight (and thats debatable) are the ones in my body, in the nasty pills I am taking, and in my own heart.

I am really sorry, but I can’t come back, even for this, not now, and not here. Whatever Lisa has that burns so brightly, I lost somehow. And until/unless I get it back, this is a toxic environment for me.

Ironic that the stuff I did in the reliably batshit AM I INFECTED forum caused me no negative stress at all, and was uplifting and purposeful. Sadly, for me, it was the support forums in which I faltered, which cost me nights of sleep I still dearly miss.

My best friend thought I was an idiot for canceling my food pantry participation, even though I had not had the energy to drive into town for weeks to pick up my bag. Thing is, half the foodstuff was well past it’s expiration date. And probably NOT a big deal to impoverished people, or otherwise healthy senior citizens. But with a 49 CD4 count and PCP? I would be an idiot to take that risk. Healthwise, I know I am at the point where it will take one more good deep push to take me out.

Those pushes can come in an otherwise well-intentioned bag of packaged goods. They can also come in a well-researched, beautifully put together online forum that for many reasons, became toxic to me. It wasn’t like presenting my research to validate points in an adult debate. It was getting beaten up on the schoolyard. It was seeing other people beaten up, with no one seemingly doing anything about it. And I notice that the sicker I get, the less able I am to fend off or ignore or avoid the flaming.

I’m God’s Perfect flame-bait, because I feel compelled to defend people, including myself. You can’t do that on an internet forum. And my skin is thinner now than ever. Is that just because I got sick? Or has HIV eaten enough holes in my brain to mess me up permanently? Only an autopsy will determine that, and I’m not ready for that procedure.

Lisa, I applaud your initiative. And I think BOTH measures will work. Both the individual making a personal and profound impact in his/her community (even an online community) AND the media-friendly gathering of thousands to protest. As a matter of fact, I think that either without the other is far less effective.

I am tired. And perhaps I am angry. Maybe I’m also a little nuts. I just can’t handle the personal attacks, the hurtful accusations and fabrications, and the bullying. And I know, I KNOW it constitutes a TINY fraction of the online forums. But for a guy who can be murdered by a single piece of bad sushi, that’s enough.

I wish I had more of that moxie that makes you endure so much. And I am not just talking to Lisa here.

I am writing this from my bed. Maybe in a few hours I will stroll to the futon and watch TV. As it stands, such is my world. I can’t risk coming back to this place now, and I apologise for that weakness.

Please feel free to email me – my email addy should be in my profile. In order to respond to PMs, and need to log in. And I am simply too afraid to do that.

Have the assholes won? Battles, maybe. But not the war. Because the war is against this virus, and any beurocracy that stands between anyone and the best treatment there is. Moffie spoke wisely when he mentioned that there will come a time when those who criticize the drug sharing program will need it, or know someone who needs it, someday.

And when that moment comes, I hope we will be strong enough not to gloat, but to offer the same hand in compassion we offer the homophobe who turns to a gay-friendly ASO when s/he tests positive.

I know Lisa will do that. She's an angel. Me? Cherub, on my best of days

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Jonathan love,You never need to apologize. Ever. I know you have been sick, I just wasn't sure how sick. I guess I thought something like this would get your juices flowing, and maybe take your mind off of feeling quite so awful. Your advice would be so valuable here because of all the work you've done in this arena, but I understand perfectly what you were saying, and I am praying for T-cells to start doing a conga line into your bloodstream. I love you so very much, and all I want is for you to feel better. You just do whatever you have to do, and we will be thinking of you as we progress through this. Drop in from time to time if you can, and we'll keep the wolves away.All my love to you friend.

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No Fear No Shame No StigmaHappiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

This thread started on Monday and I was very skeptical of how it would work, however with all the positive/+ energy anything is possible. There is a definite need for something to be done and as that old campfire song says, It only takes a spark to get a fire going.

I just printed this entire thread (45pages to be exact) and have reread every post. Wow, what great ideas and enthusiasm, minus a few posts, my first one included. I do have a question and please don't think it stupid, But what is the purpose of this marching?” In looking over the thread there seems to be 2 lines of thinking. One is to raise awareness of HIV/AIDS and bring change within the healthcare system to help those who are HIV+ or have received an AIDS diagnosis. The second purpose I see is to bring about change in the American healthcare system for everyone. The two purposes are similar, but also very different. If the purpose is only HIV/AIDS then I think the effort is off to a great start. If the purpose is truly the second, changing the healthcare system, then slowing down might be needed. I think in order to gain attention for changing the healthcare system for everyone the name would have to be changed. Across Middle America, like it or not, the title of “MillionAIDSmarch” would be perceived as a gay march (of course we all know it isn't) and the message would be lost. In Andy’s post, #17, he mentioned “HIV/AIDS activists hope to engage unions and other health-concerned groups among others to join in our demand for an end to this broken system.” At least a few of those groups need to be involved in the planning from the get go. Finally, if the true purpose is changing the healthcare system, then “we” as in those in the HIV/AIDS community must be willing to allow others into the planning process early and not worry about who gets credit for getting the ball rolling.

Also, is Washington the best place to have this kind of march? Think about it. There have been 100’s of marches and gatherings on The Mall, but how many do you remember or truly led to something greater. I think most Americans remember the Civil Rights March in ’63 and MLK’s “I Have a Dream Speech”, those marches that called for an end to the Vietnam War and some might remember the marches where The Names Project Quilt was on displayed. All others get a blip on the national news, but their purposes seem to get lost in the debate between march organizers and the National Parks System over the actual number in attendance. A week or so ago there was the march to protest the war in Iraq. It seemed to me what got the most attention was Jane Fonda. I would also think that one reason to be in DC is the opportunity to meet with Congressman and Senators. However, between next May and November not many will be in Washington as they will be in the midst of perhaps one of the most fierce campaigns we have seen in decades. Would any march after Labor Day get lost in campaign coverage? I think one of the greatest protest organized by HIV/AIDS group occurred in NYC on Wall Street. I can remember seeing news segments and someone standing above the crowd with a bull horn and the crowd bringing Wall Street to a halt. I think that got the attention of the media as well as America and pharmaceutical companies. Why not schedule a series of rallies and protests all during the same week at the headquarters of insurance and pharmaceutical companies. The city would be the one with the most headquarters. Then end the protest with a big weekend march and rally. And/or have organized committees all over the country to schedule protests and rallies at campaign events of the presidential candidates forcing this to be a campaign issue. There are so many ways to gain attention, why go the way that most have done through the years.

I look forward to where this is going and hope that I can become involved.Woods

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

GOOD POST MY FRIEND! I think the purpose of the march is still being defined if im not mistaken. I agree that an HIV march and a Healthcare march are two totally different animals. My preference is a Healthcare THEME (as in we want coverage not only for us but for everyone and quit sending it overseas!) with a HIV/AIDS emphasis (as in we are the ones who cared enough to gather here and point this out). If it is to be a healthcare focus only, I say we would indeed need to slow a hair and consider getting all the other "VIRUSES" involved. Cancer, diabetes, among others. If it is an HIV march then we are definitely on the right track and Moffie, Thunt and Lisa are lining the ducks up now in an effort to make this happen.

In order to counter the "gay stigma" middlewesterners MAY attach to the march you would want someone like Reagan or Shawn Decker (just cause those are the first two I thought of) out front on the podium. But of course you would want a spectrum of lifestyles and colors up there to represent what we truly are. Credit should be given to only those who have come and gone before us. They are the heroes. This wont be about one person or a select few, this will be about US. ALL OF US.

Good point on the whole washington thing. Think of what the protesters did in Seattle. Granted it was a more violent protest so that may have been the main reason it got the attention it did. Lining the march up with another significant yet COUNTER event may be a good thing. I can see the Washington DC side of the arguement as well. You have immediate history there. I defer on this one as Im not sure there IS a right answer.

What if the march was scheduled to coincide with a big primary in that state! Iowa for SURE hasnt seen 1 million strong on its streets. A march across the state straight down I-80 would be sure to garner attention. Although getting the government to approve that would be impossible!As far as insurance company protests... how convenient to my previous idea. Des Moines Iowa is a HUB for the insurance industry.

Glad you are involved Woodsie! I told you we werent here to pummel other ideas!!! You make some good points and Im sure others will make some valid counterpoints as they have been doing this far longer than I have (ive been at it all of one week now!!!)

Andrew (who totally would have been either in MLK's inner circle or a Black Panther, depending on how pissed I was, if he was black and growing up in the 60's!)

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

I just wanted to let you know that I admire your commitment and your strength. I truly hope that you, along with everyone else, succeed in your endeavors. With all that you've been through recently, I am inspired by your tenacity.

I just wanted to chime in here to wish you luck, and please know that I am behind you. And even though I don't post here anymore I do still read from time to time (I do care about ALL of you, no matter what happened in the past.)

I think what you are doing is commendable and I applaud you and everyone else who is getting involved. Kudos dear lady and also, cheers to those who are backing you up.

Godspeed and good health to everyone!!

All the best and much love,

Trish

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"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is buit." Eleanor Roosevelt

Thank you Trish for your kind words of encouragement.All are welcome to join the fracas. I'm not in it for applause. Frankly I became truly inspired by the talk I heard Jeanne White-Ginder give to the Commerce Club in either San Diego, or LA, I can't remember which. She gave the talk on World Aids Day, but I didn't get to see it until a few weeks ago, on C-span. That was what solidified my resolve, I just took a bit to give it a voice. Coupled with the plans that ACTUP has been working on, and all of the reasons I tried to alliterate in the first post, I just couldn't sit on it anymore. We can make a difference, I believe that.I hope you are doing well too hon.

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No Fear No Shame No StigmaHappiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

Glad to have you here Mark! I see you saw my post in the other thread!

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

I haven't had the chance to read through all the posts in the threads, but I think I've got the big picture. All I can say is your vision and determination (Buttercup my butt--you're a bundle of TNT just with a good disguise) is truly inspirational.

I can't do much more right now than lend you moral support, but it's there if you can make use of it.

I'm not sure if you are going to do an AIDS march or one for Universal Health Care, so why not do both? Surely there is someone who could design a new logo that includes the AIDS Red Ribbon with some symbol to represent health care for all. If you do it that way, very few can stand against you, because then you can play the sympathy card for babies or whatever we need to get our message heard. After 12 years of Republican pablum we know that we need to slap America in the face and what better way to do that than by introducing an inclusive movement to better the health of all Americans.

As for DC, I say skip the whole thing there. Instead, why not use the Internet to organize armies of supporters, who will wear our new symbol and then at a prearranged time, say noon, we work to bring any and all parts of this country to a standstill, if for nothing more, than to hear our message. You could still have someone in DC who could be our spokesperson(s) to clarify our message to the country. But if you want to really affect change, then you need to bring this issue to each and every American and since they do not live in DC, we need to take it where they live.

Imagine closing all the bridges in almost every American city for one-half hour. With enough of us, the authorities would be fairly powerless to do anything as the "protest" would be there and gone before they even knew what hit them and even if there are arrests, even better to get our voices heard and to show the rest of America how grave the situation really is. This is a fight we need to win and I believe that all options should remain on the table, with the exception of violence. We are Americans and we know what moves this country, so let us tap that potential by bringing all the players to the table.

American health care, preventive programs and managing chronic illnesses. That pretty well covers almost every American alive.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts