You couldn't take a full raid of players doing less than 70k, but it doesn't require being gods of recount as you put it to do 80k, being a god of recount is in an entirely different ballpark to the figures we're discussing.

There is room to carry in ToT normal and there is room for average play, my 10 man guild is a mix of players with wildly varying levels of experience including:
- people who have cleared heroic tiers before
- people who were casual in vanilla/bc, quit during those days and only came back for either t14 or t15
- people who've never spent much time in high end raiding previously
- you get the idea

Our first two raid nights in ToT we only cleared Jin'rokh and preprepreprenerf Horridon, Horridon is an often cited difficulty wall, it took us an hour and a half of wipes to kill him with:
- a 480 healer who had only dinged 90 the week before and the player hadn't raided for 4 years
- a brand new 485 healer alt of our healer from t14
- a social rogue in our guild who only participates in our guild raids every other month
- social warlock in our guild who had only just moved to full time participation in our raid team
- all players other than those two healers sitting between 490-500, raid ilvl avg of about 495

Your problem is that you have an incredibly pessimistic view of your own and your raids skill and an incredibly pessimistic view on your ability to improve or get down bosses regardless of your abilities. Yes, ToT normal isn't as easy as ICC 10 normal during its heyday, but ICC 10 normal's heyday wasn't reached until there was at least 5-10% of raid aura buffs fuelling casual groups, for the first 2-3 months or so ICC 10 normal was difficult as fuck for casual players.

Actually I think my raid is awesome and made up of extremely good players. This raid tuned is just overtuned and to fucking hard. It's not easy

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 04:38 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Mormolyce

No I'm NOT GODDAMN IT! I'll PROVE it!

*Stands in fire*

LoL. Look you said it yourself you cleared it in the first week. You are way more skilled than even you apparently understand. Grats.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

Also Lei Shen is probably the least intuitive fight in the universe. i want to stack and stand in this blue circle but not in that blue circle. I want to stack and share this debuff but not not this other debuff.

Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-31 at 04:58 AM.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

Preface: My definition of 'tuned' in this post is 'accessible enough for a fairly casual guild like Glorious Leader's to clear within a few weeks without too much strain while being able to take friends/family who aren't that great at the game'.

I was in a friends and family guild for tier 4, we wiped for 2 weeks on Moroes over a year after Kara's release. Less accessible than ToT already. Tier 4 only became 'casual' for the average player after the 3.0 patch.

Tier 7 took my 4 nighter guild 3 months to clear on 25 man (we never did 3 drakes). Already less accessible than ToT. I also sat through many a trade pug rage quitting to razuvious, thaddius and heigan. Malygos was almost a no-go for the average player.

Tier 8 was brutal for weaker players the first couple of months especially once you got past Kologarn. I never killed Yogg normal until after ToC release despite raiding 4 night weeks and we were supposedly 10th best guild on a high pop realm.

Tier 10 normal 10 man was very difficult for casual players until the raid wide aura buffs kicked into effect. The raid only saw mass completion due to being out for an entire year and buffing the players within it incredibly over time.

Tier 13, same as ICC, year long release and stacking raid debuff increased accessibility to the average player.

Originally Posted by Glorious Leader

Hell we cleared ulduar in the first week it was a joke.

See here's the part I find funny, I'm telling you that ToT is easier than you think it is, yet you cleared ulduar normal in one week when my guild tried their hardest and couldn't kill Yogg until the next content patch. Don't tell me I have trouble with perspective.

It is a big issue facing WoW raiding, and I think it does all stem from the current state of the LFR. Myself, I haven't felt much like real raiding, because I'm finally getting my last gear pieces out of Terrace now, and I've been running it on some toons from the beginning. I developed a raid model from the lfr up to combat this which I call the "Bad Player's Lore" raid model.

First off, make the LFR a 10 - 12 week gearing process, so that after the first few months of a tier, LFR offers little to anybody but late leveling players. This business of players still needing the last few upgrades after 6 months into a tier is counterproductive to higher level raiding. Players have to have a reason to reach beyond the LFR - and having virtually no outstanding upgrades after 3 months would accomplish this. The gear from LFR could be even lower in comparison to 10 man regular than they even currently are if Blizzard prefers, of course.

Secondly, make 10 man regular easier, lower skill (beer league) content that WoW needs, and make it a completely separate lockout from all other raiding, allowing everybody in the game to run it every week, even for fun. Players who enjoy content, find it fun, and have fun, will build skills and fondness of the raiding playstyle without even meaning too. Its also the second stepping stone for a new developing raider take once they have all they can get from the LFR

Players then have to decide whether to tackle 10 man heroic, which is a big jump in skill level, or gear up better by joining 25 man regular pug groups. 25 man would be revitalized, because it is slightly higher gear and skill level then 10 man regular (basically the same 25 man regular skill level we have now), but has an independent lockout from it, so players can run 10 man and 25 man regular both every week if they feel like it - this part will be very much like the peak of the game, Wrath of the Lich King ICC days. Many players ran a bit of 10 man and a bit of 25 man (via server-wide pugs often) every week, and many of us enjoyed it.

10 and 25 man heroic remain the same they are now, with roughly equal skill level and gear, and with lockouts that prohibit a player from running both. However, 25 man heroic can run the 10 man regular for beer league fun in their spare time. 10 man heroic would not be able to run 25 man regular conversely.

I think this will solve a lot of problems in WoW raiding today, and my even save it from serious decline. If any of you want more information on my model:

I could swear that fewer guilds by far cleared Ulduar on the first week than cleared Throne of Thunder on the first week.

Not sure what to tell you. My personal experience is that this tier is harder than normal ulduar by far.

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 05:03 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Radio

See here's the part I find funny, I'm telling you that ToT is easier than you think it is, yet you cleared ulduar normal in one week when my guild tried their hardest and couldn't kill Yogg until the next content patch. Don't tell me I have trouble with perspective.

You do. Yogg saron is not the only fight in ulduar. We cleared that raid (including yogg) in a week no problem. ToT has taken it's toll on us though. We've had to sit players we took before who were decent but not top of the line raiders.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

When I was playing casually in T11, my guild took the entire tier to down NM nef lol. Our druid tank just could not get up onto those pillars! And he was otherwise one of our best players. I miss that guy he was heaps of fun to play with...

Honestly the difficulty of each encounter is a lot more subjective than people realise.

You do. Yogg saron is not the only fight in ulduar. We cleared that raid (including yogg) in a week no problem. ToT has taken it's toll on us though.

I used Yogg Saron because killing him is regarded as ending the tier and 'seeing the content'.

It took us about 3 months to get to him in the first place, slow burn throughout the entire instance where particular roadblocks were XT, the watchers and Vesax. Leading up to spending a verrrrrry long time on Yogg.

When I was playing casually in T11, my guild took the entire tier to down NM nef lol. Our druid tank just could not get up onto those pillars! And he was otherwise one of our best players. I miss that guy he was heaps of fun to play with...

Honestly the difficulty of each encounter is a lot more subjective than people realise.

I find this honestly rather funny. On the one hand you insist that it's not difficult but now you also say well it's subjective.... can you honestly not see how insanely ironic that is? Remember the part about ants and humans?

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 05:08 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Radio

I used Yogg Saron because killing him is regarded as ending the tier and 'seeing the content'.

It took us about 3 months to get to him in the first place, slow burn throughout the entire instance where particular roadblocks were XT, the watchers and Vesax. Leading up to spending a verrrrrry long time on Yogg.

Actually it's not all about the end boss, even if your pug raid in icc went 4/12 it still gave people something. Now apparently they shouldn't be satisfied eith even that. XT was a joke compared to Horridon.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

Actually it's not all about the end boss, even if your pug raid in icc went 4/12 it still gave people something. Now apparently they shouldn't be satisfied eith even that. XT was a joke compared to Horridon.

LOL No. Not even close. The numbers don't support that, my own anecdote and experience doesn't support that. Hell even at release we pugged 25 man to 3/12. Hell on 10 man it was easy as piss and the developers acknowledge this as well to. Why is it the developers acknowledge all this crap but the some members of the player base plug their ears and screams no not so much? Even if what you said is true (and it's not) it seems fairly evident that the stacking nerf applied to ICC was the best thing they ever did to the raid and should have went forward from that point on.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

LOL No. Not even close. The numbers don't support that, my own anecdote and experience doesn't support that. Hell even at release we pugged to 3/12. Even if it's true (and it's not) it seems fairly evident that the stacking nerf applied to ICC was the best thing they ever did to the raid and should have went forward from that point on.

I saw pugs/casual guilds getting mauled by Deathwhisper for the first few weeks, anecdotal evidence is a funny thing isn't it.

EDIT: If they had applied the stacking nerf to ToT it would only barely getting to the point where it made a difference now.

I saw pugs/casual guilds getting mauled by Deathwhisper for the first few weeks, anecdotal evidence is a funny thing isn't it.

Not really. Not when the developers support your anecdotal arguments. It becomes less anecdotal and more reality. Why is it the developers can say raids had at lot less going on and were alot less complex but members of the player base scream NOOOOOOOO!! why is it they can say 10 mans were piss easy but members of the player base scream NOOOOOO!!!!!!

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

Not really. Not when the developers support your anecdotal arguments. It becomes less anecdotal and more reality.

Then why do I see a huge gap on my old realm's kills on deathwhisper between the heroic raid guilds and the others? In fact going through kills for Horridon in the first few weeks and Lady Deathwhisper for the first few weeks the trend seems so similar...

Then why do I see a huge gap on my old realm's kills on deathwhisper between the heroic raid guilds and the others? In fact going through kills for Horridon in the first few weeks and Lady Deathwhisper for the first few weeks the trend seems so similar...

*Shrug* lightening struck the server and killed millions? Messhiac came and took them all to paradise! Again go ahead and read the developer tweets about raids having less going on.... guess which raid had less going on? I'll wait. Guess which raid had easier 10 mans? Where's that damn jeopardy music...

Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-31 at 05:32 AM.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.