A few days back I started a post about my brother-in-law's attempt to treat his high blood glucose with the power of prayer; here's a link. In that thread, kanicbird has asserted that God may, in fact, answer my brother-in-law's prayers, if so He/She/It/They desire. As the original source of my vexation is no longer a live issue (my niece persuaded her father to go to the doctor by by being cute, weepy, and fourteen), I thought I'd open a thread for a debate, and do it here in the hopes that it would be a mite, ah, calmer than in the Pit.

So, to kanicbird (and even Polycarp, who has also chimed in in the original thread):

If an omnipotent, benevolent, interventionst Deity exists, why doesn't He/She/It/They restore amputated limbs?
I have friends who are amputees. If either of them regrew their missing feet and attested the healing to the power of Jesus, or Dionysus, or Galactus, I'd abandon my skepticism. Hell, I think even Sam Harris, under such circumstances, would say "Holy crap!"

So why doesn't this happen? Why don't people even PRAY for this to happen? Of the two amputees I know, one is a Pentecostal Christian who has, in my presence, participated in intercessory prayer sessions for miraculous healing, and been the recipient of such prayers. I've NEVER heard anyone suggest that God bring his leg back.

If we could understand 100 percent about God then he would not be God or we would have to become omniscient like God is. So unless someone on the board is omniscient(Sam Stone?) you will not get an answer.
What is so special about an amputated limb? Why is that your cutoff? Why not a healing from cancer or a broken leg?

If we could understand 100 percent about God then he would not be God or we would have to become omniscient like God is. So unless someone on the board is omniscient(Sam Stone?) you will not get an answer.
What is so special about an amputated limb? Why is that your cutoff? Why not a healing from cancer or a broken leg?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Conroy, except that I'm misquoting, because I'm doing it from memory and the book is ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE ROOM and my feet hurt

"When my friend went to Vietnam, he had two good legs. When he came back he did not. I connected the two events."

[jackass off/]

A missing limb is easy to see; its restoration would be trivial to verify. ("Hey, Skaldimus, look!" my friend could yell. "I'm doing the foxtrot with Mrs. Rhymer!") Tumors are frequently not. Were my friend to suddenly regrow his missing leg, I would, as I wrote in the OP, be convinced that something preternatural was going on, whereas a seeming remission of cancer is not nearly as persuasive, as it is impossible for the layman to verify and as it sometimes happens on its own.

If we could understand 100 percent about God then he would not be God or we would have to become omniscient like God is. So unless someone on the board is omniscient(Sam Stone?) you will not get an answer.
What is so special about an amputated limb? Why is that your cutoff? Why not a healing from cancer or a broken leg?

The only ailments that seem to be cured by faith healing are "invisible". You can't see the cancer, epilepsy, diabetes, migraine headache, etc. Visible injuries like amputations, severe burns or scarring are never healed. Even with the person onstage in a wheelchair, you can't "see" the paralysis.

If we could understand 100 percent about God then he would not be God or we would have to become omniscient like God is. So unless someone on the board is omniscient(Sam Stone?) you will not get an answer.
What is so special about an amputated limb? Why is that your cutoff? Why not a healing from cancer or a broken leg?

Because people of all faiths survive cancer and heal broken bones at about the same rate, which implies that healing from cancer or broken bones is not (at least not always) miraculous. Which means that any single case of someone being cured by prayer for one of those things could be a coincidence, rather than a miracle.

However, since no one has ever regrown an amputated limb, that would be, well, pretty miraculous. I'm sure other diseases/ailments could be chosen, but lost limbs are good because they're very well understood.

__________________
"I know you won't believe me, but the highest form of Human Excellence is to question oneself and others." -Socrates

The only ailments that seem to be cured by faith healing are "invisible". You can't see the cancer, epilepsy, diabetes, migraine headache, etc. Visible injuries like amputations, severe burns or scarring are never healed. Even with the person onstage in a wheelchair, you can't "see" the paralysis.

I've realize that you're asking runnerpat, and I've already said that I would be persauded that something preternatural was going on, but I'm going to answer as it gives me the opportunity to call you a Narnian.

The way to God through Jesus works entirely on faith. God so perfectly controls the universe that he can heal anything and even raise the dead in a way that the general population never realizes. God wants to reveal Himself personally to people who seek.

There are many many things that are hidden, I'm not sure how it works, but I know it exists as I've seen it, not healing/restoring of limbs, but things that only certain people, people of strong faith, can remember, while others don't remember, even one reported extreme memory loss that blocked out the entire event.

I can assure you that the scriptures about the power of God is very real and happening today, just as in the early church.

The way is to seek the Lord Jesus, make Him your king and you His subject, live to serve Him. He will give you His work to do and set you on a journey which may or may not include healing.

As for faith healing, the motivation of the heart is wrong, seeking a cure/restoration can not be your motivation, though you can ask the Lord, and He certainly may grant your request.

But you will NOT find it in a reputable journal, if you did it would not be of God. God provides it through the scriptures, which is through His Prophets and Saints, to quote one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 16:31

"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'

"

If you don't listen (by you heart) to the Word of God, you will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead (and is made known through a 'reputable' journal.

Yes, if I saw it or it was verified in a reputable journal or news agency.

A short bit of googling provides CNN as a reputable news agency. From Transcript of CNN Impact/March 16, 1997:

Quote:

Some of Hinn's healings are indeed documented and defy medical explanations. He's even published a book listing these cases, with doctors' notes included. Hinn provided IMPACT with two dozen documented healings from people suffering a variety of illnesses. All of the people contacted were true believers who claimed to have significantly improved since attending a healing crusade

This site is what I've been looking for. I've gotta bookmark it for now and really spend some time with it. Thank you!

From runnerpat's link:

"In a similar vein, many believers will say, "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no.' If your prayer does not fit with God's will, then God will say 'no' to you." This feels odd because God's answer to every amputee is always "no" when it comes to regenerating lost limbs. Jesus says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." He does not say, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it, unless you are praying about an amputated limb, in which case I will always reject your prayer." Jesus also says, "Nothing will be impossible to you," and regenerating a limb should therefore be possible. The fact that God refuses to answer every prayer to regenerate a lost limb seems strange, doesn't it?"

Not quite an amputated limb, but a shrunken one. From a story by Sports Illustrated Feb 2004 on Tom Pappas:

Quote:

But then he was back on his feet, a cripple again. One day when Nick was 11 and scheduled for surgery that would leave him in a body cast for a year, his father got a phone call from a pro wrestling pal, the Great John L. You've got to take your kid to see this faith healer, insisted the Great John L. This cat, Leroy Jenkins, had just made the hernia plaguing a bodybuilding buddy of theirs disappear!

Out of desperation, not belief, Bill took his son to the faith healer's revival in Santa Barbara on Feb. 4, 1965. Nick's heart thumped as he was summoned to the stage. He took a seat, and the healer pressed his palms against Nick's heels. "It's your faith that will make this happen," he told the boy. Nick prayed feverishly. Bill broke into a sweat at his side, fearing that the man was about to yank the shorter leg from its socket. Instead Jenkins bowed his head and said, "In the name of Jesus," and Nick felt hot and strange inside.

All at once, Bill and Nick swear, Nick's right leg began to lengthen before their eyes, to grow until it was just as long as his left one—a hair longer, according to the bewildered orthopedic surgeon who would measure it a few days later.

Nick rose, at the healer's urging, almost trotted down the steps and took a seat, muscles quivering in his leg where none had been.

He would always have a slight limp, would never become the athlete he longed to be to make his father proud. But an even bigger change occurred the day of the faith healing. Wild Bill glimpsed what he'd been on the lookout for in all those bars and all those rings—a being mightier than he. He still couldn't quite believe, the question of faith burning him like a fever, and so he began inviting ministers from different religions to his house, two at a time, and pitting them against each other, holding Reverend Run-offs: Competition was the only way Bill knew to bare the truth. The winner was a charismatic missionary who began holding spiritual meetings at the Pap-pas house, at one of which a man spoke in tongues and delivered a prophecy: Bill Pappas would buy 100 acres in Oregon and start a children's home. Nick's father decided to find out, once and for all, if all this healing and tongue-babbling and God business were true. To bet the house on it.

Bill sold his house, sold or gave away almost everything he owned, even gave his roadster to the faith healer. Nick climbed into a 2�-ton flatbed truck one summer day in '65, along with his father, mother, younger brother, Tom, and sister, Linda, and they headed north toward the 75 acres in a valley in southern Oregon that Bill had just purchased, on first sight, for 27 grand. A barn came with it, a miner's shack and the Big House, a three-story shell without doors, windows, electricity, heat or running water. Perfect. Bill christened the property Living Springs.

For nearly a decade the Pappases lived without telephone, newspapers, radio or television, but they had what the prophecy had promised: God, a vast swath of land and children, dozens of children—suicidal children and incorrigible children, filling up bedrooms as fast as Bill could plaster and paint them. Best of all, the Pappases had a fresh start, new identities. They were born again.

A short bit of googling provides CNN as a reputable news agency. From Transcript of CNN Impact/March 16, 1997:
Two dozen healings documented by CNN, is this enough?

I fear the Lion would be distressed by your disingenous answer.

In the first place, it is not enough to say 'a bit of googling.' Kindly provide the links you found, so we know exactly what you're talking about.

Secondly, please leave the goalposts in their original position, as the beavers, centaurs, and dwarrows worked all night putting them in place. Can you provide examples of amputated limbs spontaneously regrowing after intervention by a faith healer?

But many of the spectacular "healings" claimed at Hinn's healing crusades are not miracles at all.

In November, IMPACT interviewed several people at random during a Hinn crusade at the Omni Coliseum in Atlanta. Despite their immediate claims, there were no long-term miraculous recoveries from serious disease. In fact, one of the people we followed, 35-year-old Laura Twilley of Snellville, Georgia, died of cancer just four weeks after the crusade, leaving behind a husband and three little girls. "I was skeptical about going to the crusade at first," says her husband, David, "but I'm glad I went. It was important to Laura."

You're honestly going to Benny Hinn for a verified healing? Wow, you couldn't have picked a worse example. He's a well known fake healer.

A short bit of googling provides CNN as a reputable news agency. From Transcript of CNN Impact/March 16, 1997:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNN

Some of Hinn's healings are indeed documented and defy medical explanations. He's even published a book listing these cases, with doctors' notes included. Hinn provided IMPACT with two dozen documented healings from people suffering a variety of illnesses. All of the people contacted were true believers who claimed to have significantly improved since attending a healing crusade

Two dozen healings documented by CNN, is this enough?

Not enough for me, at any rate, for several reasons:
(1) These healings aren't documented by CNN or by IMPACT (whatever that is). CNN / IMPACT has only the assertions of Benny Hinn;
(2) The OP and others specifically asked about the regrowth or regeneration of amputated limbs. "A variety of illnesses" might or might not include amputation; probably not, since an amputation is not, in and of itself, an illness;
(3) The OP and others specifically disallowed conditions which either can't be externally verified (e.g. pain) or which have been documented to undergo spontaneous remission (e.g. cancer).

You're offering a collection of anecdotes about people with conditions that aren't relevant to the discussion. This does not satisfy the OP's challenge.

puddlegum, I hope this is the same report you mentioned as you didn't provide a link.

From the above.

Quote:

Some of Hinn's healings are indeed documented and defy medical explanations. He's even published a book listing these cases, with doctors' notes included. Hinn provided IMPACT with two dozen documented healings from people suffering a variety of illnesses. All of the people contacted were true believers who claimed to have significantly improved since attending a healing crusade.

But many of the spectacular "healings" claimed at Hinn's healing crusades are not miracles at all.

Twilley said his wife showed dramatic improvement immediately after the crusade but deteriorated a short time later. He said he believes Hinn means well but is sometimes more interested in putting on a good show than helping desperate people.

"If Benny Hinn can give people one thing, I'm satisfied -- and that's hope," says Hinn himself on the grounds of his Orlando-based World Outreach Center.

IMPACT interviewed a number of people who said that despite their infirmities, Hinn offered just that. "I feel I got to hold on to that hope," says Linda Tyson, mother of 18-year-old Shandez Daniels.

A former honors student and football star from Elba, Alabama, Shandez was paralyzed in his high school's 1995 homecoming game. After two unsuccessful attempts to get into the Atlanta crusade, Shandez was briefly prayed over and touched by Hinn backstage.

His condition to date has not significantly improved.

Also, though the report states the healings are documented, no cite is provided.

A missing limb is easy to see; its restoration would be trivial to verify.

It's also something the human body cannot do, even with the best efforts of medical science.

Tumors can go away just because your body wins the fight. Sometimes yolur immunse system loses, and sometimes it wins; you don't know if it was a miracle or just white blood cells. The case of "a miracle" cited in the linked web site of a teenager who recovered from symptomatic rabies (normally invariably fatal) was a case where an extremely unusual and aggressive method of medical treatment was attempted, which appears to have been the likely reason the girl survived. MAYBE it was a miracle. But you don't know for sure. It could have been the treatment.

But if you grow back a damn leg, it's a miracle, unless you're a salamander.

puddlegum, I hope this is the same report you mentioned as you didn't provide a link.

From the above.

Also, though the report states the healings are documented, no cite is provided.

Claiming to be healed is not the same as proof.

No one claims that everyone is healed by faith healing, you claimed no one is. CNN claims that 24 people were healed and they investigated the claims and corroborated the claims with the people and their doctors. Someone said they wanted a reputable news organization, I provided one.
Apparently some people will only accept the amputated limbs and some people will accept other healings. If your an amputations only person, no luck so far.

No one claims that everyone is healed by faith healing, you claimed no one is. CNN claims that 24 people were healed and they investigated the claims and corroborated the claims with the people and their doctors.

Nowhere in the article you linked, which actually says the opposite of what you claim, does it say CNN investigated claims and corroborated with doctors. If you actually bothered to read the article, you'll see that Hinn provided some examples, but when these examples were investigated, they were all found to be false. People who have been cured of cancer do not die of cancer 4 weeks later.

Quote:

Someone said they wanted a reputable news organization, I provided one.

No, you linked to a site that is dedicated to debunking the things you claimed, who's article claimed the exact opposite of what you claimed.

Quote:

Apparently some people will only accept the amputated limbs and some people will accept other healings. If your an amputations only person, no luck so far.

The OP asked for documented proof of a restored amputated limb, so far, you have nothing.

Skald, for the benefit of those who wish to participate in this discussion, would you please define "documentation" and "reputable?"

I didn't bring the terms into the discussion, and though I'm arrogant, self-important, and recursively self-referential, I'm not sure I've given the terms enough thought to do as you request. Taking a swing, I'd guess that "reputable" would mean a peer-reviewed journal, or at the very least multiple investigative reporters, and documentation would mean that there would have to be verification of the alleged healee's prior amputated state through photographs or some such.

Those aren't my criteria, by the way. Given the prevalence of computer-generated imagery and special effects, things seen on video are doomed to be dubious nowadays. But if God existed and wished to convert me, he could very easily make my friend's leg regrow the next time we are together. Or giant flaming letters in the sky. Or bring my son back to life.

Reading over the above, I'm sure kanicbird and our resident marsh-wiggle may quote something to the effect that those who ask for signs are beign sinful. I counter that, according to Acts, Paul of Tarsus--notorious sinner and accomplice to murder--received a quite dramatic sign that brought him to the side of goodness, hugs, kittens, & homophobia. Why can't this happen to others?

Imagine if you had access to Wizard Mode for life on earth. You could go in and tweak a cell here, a molecule there. You could decide the outcomes of "random" events at the quantum level. But you can't do anything that goes against the laws of physics. I think (though IANAE) that under these circumstances there is a lot of healing you could do, but that restoring lost limbs (at least those of a human being rather than a starfish or daddy-longlegs) would not be possible.

I believe that God responds to, and often acts in answer to, prayer, but that very very rarely are these responses miraculous in the sense of subverting the laws by which the universe normally runs. And that some forms of healing are possible through such less-than-miraculous initervention, but restoration of amputated limbs is an example of something that is not.

No one claims that everyone is healed by faith healing, you claimed no one is. CNN claims that 24 people were healed and they investigated the claims and corroborated the claims with the people and their doctors. Someone said they wanted a reputable news organization, I provided one.
Apparently some people will only accept the amputated limbs and some people will accept other healings. If your an amputations only person, no luck so far.

The news articles are not documentation, no matter how reputable the source. CNN does not claim that people were healed; they reported that people claimed they were healed. It's a subtle difference that is in fact a huge difference.

If you want to document a faith healing, I'd say you need to do medical exams and take measurements before and after the healing. For example, if you wanted documentation of a healing of someone with emphysema, you'd need at least x-rays, blood-oxygen levels, and measurements of lung capacity. In the case of the kid whose leg "grew" the documentation you've so far provided consists of people saying "It happened, I swear it, I saw it with my own eyes! And some doctor saw it too BTW." There should be the firsthand testimony of the unnamed doctor, plus x-rays and measurements showing the difference before and after. That could be considered evidence. Those have not been provided. This is an anecdote, not documentation.

Imagine if you had access to Wizard Mode for life on earth. You could go in and tweak a cell here, a molecule there. You could decide the outcomes of "random" events at the quantum level. But you can't do anything that goes against the laws of physics. I think (though IANAE) that under these circumstances there is a lot of healing you could do, but that restoring lost limbs (at least those of a human being rather than a starfish or daddy-longlegs) would not be possible.

I believe that God responds to, and often acts in answer to, prayer, but that very very rarely are these responses miraculous in the sense of subverting the laws by which the universe normally runs. And that some forms of healing are possible through such less-than-miraculous initervention, but restoration of amputated limbs is an example of something that is not.

Then you're talking about a Demiurge.

That argument works fine for Odin, Zeus,or Galactus. But from an self-existent, eternal deity who is responsible for all that exists, it makes no sense.

I'm a writer. For purposes of the universe of my story, I am God. I reached a point in the narrative recently in which I realized that two characters I had just killed were necessary for the protagonist's tale to continue satisfactorially, so I reached down with my immortal hands and resurrected them. (I killed two other characters in their place, but only because I'm a dick.) One character in the story is basically an amputee; I can give her her fingers back whenever the hell I want, because I create the laws of physics for this story.

Shouldn't God be just as omnipotent as Skald-the-mediocre-novelist? Not to mention less of a dick, as I am currently torturing the story's protagonists because I like the plot better that way; I screw them over endlessly to make a good story. But, you know, I'm a dick.

The way to God through Jesus works entirely on faith. God so perfectly controls the universe that he can heal anything and even raise the dead in a way that the general population never realizes. God wants to reveal Himself personally to people who seek.

There are many many things that are hidden, I'm not sure how it works, but I know it exists as I've seen it, not healing/restoring of limbs, but things that only certain people, people of strong faith, can remember, while others don't remember, even one reported extreme memory loss that blocked out the entire event.

I can assure you that the scriptures about the power of God is very real and happening today, just as in the early church.

Imagine if you had access to Wizard Mode for life on earth. You could go in and tweak a cell here, a molecule there. You could decide the outcomes of "random" events at the quantum level. But you can't do anything that goes against the laws of physics. I think (though IANAE) that under these circumstances there is a lot of healing you could do, but that restoring lost limbs (at least those of a human being rather than a starfish or daddy-longlegs) would not be possible.

Salamanders can regrow limbs. Since both they and we are vertebrates, I think that should be sufficiently close for "Wizard Mode" to regrow human limbs, don't you think?

Reading over the above, I'm sure kanicbird and our resident marsh-wiggle may quote something to the effect that those who ask for signs are beign sinful. I counter that, according to Acts, Paul of Tarsus--notorious sinner and accomplice to murder--received a quite dramatic sign that brought him to the side of goodness, hugs, kittens, & homophobia. Why can't this happen to others?

Paul live for Jesus, and the signs accompanied them as God worked through Him.

Imagine if you had access to Wizard Mode for life on earth. You could go in and tweak a cell here, a molecule there. You could decide the outcomes of "random" events at the quantum level. But you can't do anything that goes against the laws of physics. I think (though IANAE) that under these circumstances there is a lot of healing you could do, but that restoring lost limbs (at least those of a human being rather than a starfish or daddy-longlegs) would not be possible.

I believe that God responds to, and often acts in answer to, prayer, but that very very rarely are these responses miraculous in the sense of subverting the laws by which the universe normally runs. And that some forms of healing are possible through such less-than-miraculous initervention, but restoration of amputated limbs is an example of something that is not.

Tweaking cells and molecules here and there is as much a violation of physical laws as creating something (i.e., a limb) from nothing.

Paul live for Jesus, and the signs accompanied them as God worked through Him.

Saul wasn't exactly living for Jesus when he experienced the Damascus Road conversion. He was actively persecuting Jesus' followers. If God can speak to and touch Saul, why can't He speak to and touch others who may not be living for Him?

I'm a writer. For purposes of the universe of my story, I am God. I reached a point in the narrative recently in which I realized that two characters I had just killed were necessary for the protagonist's tale to continue satisfactorially, so I reached down with my immortal hands and resurrected them. (I killed two other characters in their place, but only because I'm a dick.) One character in the story is basically an amputee; I can give her her fingers back whenever the hell I want, because I create the laws of physics for this story.

And I'm not denying that God could do that, too. But if your character doesn't have fingers on page 83, and then does have fingers on page 95, you're going to look like a sloppy novelist who sucks at continuity. At least unless you can provide a plausible reason for how they got there.

Whatever kind of novel God's writing, it's not the kind where anything can happen at any time without regard for reason, rules, or consistency.