Oh good grief. I should have done that search. It’s painful to see. But Ted, if men and women are capable of believing such nonsense, we are in trouble. I mean, what if our world leaders believe this poppycock? Uh, Isn’t Mr. Bush a creationsist himself?

Like I have room to talk. Look at what I used to believe. My story should give you all hope that humans can break free of the iron fisted grip of religion if they just camp out on the internet long enough. I am proof that it is possible.

But I suppose what I am really saying about our doomed planet is that, in like kind, the Islam movement believes some rather potent garbage too and they seem to be serious about inflicting in upon us. This mindset is not too far an offshoot from Christians believing that dinosaurs were on Noah’s ark. Many religious fanaticals believe in weird end of days rapture doom. Christians are too prone to hail the world wide war and struggle as necessary chess piece movements towards the final checkmate of Jesus. And we hear them praising the lord that more ‘evidence’ is showing each year.

It’s times like this when I feel extremely rational, logical, reasonable.

noggin (with a small ‘n’ this time to show humility as to how great I feel.. it’s great to be as humble as I am)

[quote author=“Mia”]
Nogs, what were your beliefs about dinosaurs, back in the day?

Hi Mia, dinosaurs were not on Noah’s ark in my old theist head. I would read what my Mormon apostles would say on the matter of a 6000 year old earth and struggle with that. It was a minor crack in my testimony but that was easily compartmentalized since, well you know, I had ‘felt’ how true the church was and all.

But I did firmly ‘know’ yea, even without a shadow of doubt, verily, that passcodes, signs and token in the form of suspicious masonic origins were required in order for humans to enter god’s kingdom. I ‘knew’ that polygamy was the highest most noble form of marriage because it followed god’s marriage, and I ‘knew’ that we were the only church on earth who had an actual autograph on file from father Abraham’s own hand… Abraham’s writings translated by a seer Smith which were written on egyptian papyri. You did not know that Abraham wrote in egyptian did you? There were so many things I once ‘knew’, I could write a book.

But did you think the dino fossils were put there as a ‘test’ by God, as many Christians still do, or did you just think someone failed to specifically mention them in the accounts of Noah? For my own part, I compartmentalized the whole thing, wrote it off to an error which I simply chose not to associate with God. I shrugged it off as if that part was just a story, but that the God part was still safe. . . . . huh??? . . . I know, it makes no sense. I did the same with the virgin birth and all the rest, just assuming that God had a good reason for making everything sound more dramatic than it really was. My gut always told me the worldwide Flood was impossible—have you looked at just how much water it would take?—but I never challenged anyone on it. Man, I am loathe to make sense of how my mind worked back then :oops:. Why didn’t it set off wild alarms in me?! I hate that I was a sheeple!!!

That list of museums above really blew my mind. I thought there were maybe only three or four such museums, but there are a lot! and at least three of them are brand new.

A bit off-topic. . . I think it was Conservative Atheist who was saying on another thread that a Belgian church supposedly has a very special relic—a vial of Jesus’ own blood! As he says, it would be interesting to get a DNA analysis of that. If nothing else, I wonder if they can determine the age of the person in question, based on a centuries old sample? What can be learned from blood?

Not surprisingly, the Catholic Encyclopedia reports on the “Holy Blood”, but fails to question its authenticity in the slightest. Jesus’ blood given from one cousin to another as a prize? Uh-huh. And if you believe that. . .

The epoch of the Crusades (1096-1270) contributed in no small measure to the fame and prosperity of Bruges. Count Robert II from the first of these great undertakings brought back from Caesarea in Cappadocia the relics of St. Basil; Thierry of Alsace returned from the second with the relic of the Holy Blood presented to him by his cousin Baldwin, King of Jerusalem, as the reward of his great services; while Baldwin IX, who took part in the fourth, was raised to the imperial throne on the founding of the Latin Empire after the fall of Constantinople, 9 April, 1204. From 7 April, 1150, the day on which Thierry of Alsace returned to his capital with the precious relic, it has played no small part in the religious life of the city. The solemn Procession of the Holy Blood, instituted in 1303 to commemorate the deliverance of the city, by the national heroes Breidel and De Coninck, from French tyranny in May of the previous year and which takes place annually on the Monday following the first Sunday in May, is to this day one of the great religious celebrations in Belgium, to which thousands congregate from all parts.

I was born and raised Catholic and cured in early adulthood largely as a result of discussing the question of dino fossils with my friends. I became convinced that they died when and where they lay. BTW I am the proud parent of 4 first generation born free-thinkers… never baptized, never programmed ... all happy and making good choices.

[quote author=“ExitB”]I was born and raised Catholic and cured in early adulthood largely as a result of discussing the question of dino fossils with my friends. I became convinced that they died when and where they lay. BTW I am the proud parent of 4 first generation born free-thinkers… never baptized, never programmed ... all happy and making good choices.

Well youre a bit of an idiot or you grew up in a catholic culture that never existed. Nowhere will you find a reference to dinosaurs on the ark or a young earth in Catholic dogma. Also your freethinker children are programmed just like the rest of us are. I suggest you ask our expert freudian, Ted Shepherd on the parent’s influence on the beliefs of his children. Teaching them not to believe is just as much programming as teaching them to believe.

[quote author=“frankr”]Well youre a bit of an idiot or you grew up in a catholic culture that never existed. Nowhere will you find a reference to dinosaurs on the ark or a young earth in Catholic dogma. Also your freethinker children are programmed just like the rest of us are. I suggest you ask our expert freudian, Ted Shepherd on the parent’s influence on the beliefs of his children.

I never said that I limited my inquiry about Christian dogma to the to Catholic version. Many legitimate questions arise just from reading the Bible [Yes, some of us actually read parts of it. I read it all.]. Picture teenage boys in the early 60’s hanging out, making fun of Sister Ernesta’s breast armor and gufawing over the notion of dinosaurs drowning in the Great Flood and somehow becominging mired in muck that solidified millions of years before they were born or ... “What do you think Jeff, did they take a ride on the ark first?” “May as well, I guess, if you can believe any of it.” “Who dares to ask Fr. Farrel about that?” “Not me!” “Nope.” “Are you kidding?!” If he wanted us to know he’d explain stuff like that. How could any explaination make sense anyway? The Bible stories are absurd. We grew up. My children have never been institutionally indoctrinated with untestable notions (dogma). I didn’t teach them to not believe anything. They can believe or not believe whatever they choose. Some of those childhood friends I mentioned are still Christians of some sort. I don’t know why. I don’t consider them idiots. I wouldn’t say that I consider you an idiot, frankr ... in a polite conversation anyway ... which unfortunately this isn’t.

Your first words to me were “Well you’re a bit of an idiot ...”. You can expect that to come back at you again and again until I read an apology.

[quote author=“ExitB”][quote author=“frankr”]Well youre a bit of an idiot or you grew up in a catholic culture that never existed. Nowhere will you find a reference to dinosaurs on the ark or a young earth in Catholic dogma. Also your freethinker children are programmed just like the rest of us are. I suggest you ask our expert freudian, Ted Shepherd on the parent’s influence on the beliefs of his children.

I never said that I limited my inquiry about Christian dogma to the to Catholic version. Many legitimate questions arise just from reading the Bible [Yes, some of us actually read parts of it. I read it all.]. Picture teenage boys in the early 60’s hanging out, making fun of Sister Ernesta’s breast armor and gufawing over the notion of dinosaurs drowning in the Great Flood and somehow becominging mired in muck that solidified millions of years before they were born or ... “What do you think Jeff, did they take a ride on the ark first?” “May as well, I guess, if you can believe any of it.” “Who dares to ask Fr. Farrel about that?” “Not me!” “Nope.” “Are you kidding?!” If he wanted us to know he’d explain stuff like that. How could any explaination make sense anyway? The Bible stories are absurd. We grew up. My children have never been institutionally indoctrinated with untestable notions (dogma). I didn’t teach them to not believe anything. They can believe or not believe whatever they choose. Some of those childhood friends I mentioned are still Christians of some sort. I don’t know why. I don’t consider them idiots. I wouldn’t say that I consider you an idiot, frankr ... in a polite conversation anyway ... which unfortunately this isn’t.

Your first words to me were “Well you’re a bit of an idiot ...”. You can expect that to come back at you again and again until I read an apology.

I stand by my original claim. I am sure Sr Ernesta and Fr. Farrel did not suggest that Dinosaurs got stuck in the muck from the flood. As to never saying that you limited you inquiry to the Catholic version, I disagree. You said quite specifically that you were cured of Catholicism by dino fossil inquiry with your friends. I stand by my first words.

Teaching them not to believe is just as much programming as teaching them to believe.

Teaching children to have confidence in logic and objective reality is not the same as teaching them to defer to ecclesiastical authority. Teaching them to have an open mind and examine the evidence and reasoning for themselves is not the same as teaching them to cling to (putative) eternal verities. Teaching them “Be good to your playmates or they will avoid you or strike back” is not the same as teaching them “Be good to your playmates or God will punish you.” I would think the word “programming” applies more aptly to teaching children that the questions are settled rather than teaching them that the questions are open.

A bit of poetry to break the tension, and send me off to rest.

Kahlil Gibran:

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

Teaching them not to believe is just as much programming as teaching them to believe.

Teaching children to have confidence in logic and objective reality is not the same as teaching them to defer to ecclesiastical authority. Teaching them to have an open mind and examine the evidence and reasoning for themselves is not the same as teaching them to cling to (putative) eternal verities. Teaching them “Be good to your playmates or they will avoid you or strike back” is not the same as teaching them “Be good to your playmates or God will punish you.” I would think the word “programming” applies more aptly to teaching children that the questions are settled rather than teaching them that the questions are open.

A bit of poetry to break the tension, and send me off to rest.

Kahlil Gibran:

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

Do you really think that the only way to teach Christian morals to children is to say God will punish you if you don’t? It is laughable.

Finally for the most part Ted I admire your taste, but Kahil Gibran i just cannot take. Whenever I see his poetry I am always afraid of being transported to some new age wedding they will read his poetry and follow it with self-written sap-filled vows. The wedding always end with a Beatles song form their late era or a John and Yoko ballad. If I were a player in Sartre’s No Exit, my room would eternally be this wedding.

Honestly. I am finding it very hard to admit that I once believed the fossils in the strata were tests of faith. There were many things I believed that were equally ridiculous, and consequently, also chalked up to ‘tests’ of faith from god. What else could it be when you assume your religion is the True One? Maybe the most perplexing item of all was that I freed myself from my former faith (but did not ditch the belief in god, hence, the exploration as to which faith I now should embrace) in 1998 only to lapse back into it a year later when my 1st wife left me because of my declaration of unbelief. The divorce left me weak and doubting that my new world view was really all that great. I was 28 and still dependent on approval from a god. I tried again to ‘be religious’ but this time as a ‘liberal’ Mormon… but the doubts just nagged at me.

For me, it was kind of like the space probes that have to slingshot themselves around the moon in order to get enough thrust out of orbit. The gravitational pull of religion was that strong for me. Trying to break out of that on my own was nearly impossible.

It’s either that or I am just one incredibly dense moron.

The notion that one is a part of the Truest Religion on Earth(c), with God’s very own Stamp of Approval(c) forces that person to compartmentalize. This self-talk of “God is just testing my faith” can smooth out the rough edges found in the problematic areas of religion. In the end, though, isn’t the virgin birth, global flood, resurrection, and claimed of restoring eyesight and withered hands enough to throw ones mind into a stupor of thought? Nope. Religion then had to complicate things further with transubsantiation, secret handshakes, passcodes, wafers, new translations, mind melding, esp, new bibles, praying to statues, bleeding statues, paying money for sins, snake handling, polygamy, priesthood succession issues, faith vs works, speaking in tongues, conflicts in methodolgy of baptism, ceremony, marriage after death, fasting issues, actually nailing one’s self to a cross to prove they are devout (phillipines)... and so on. Very complicated indeed.

Why was the supposed author of it unclear enough that this brand of chaos resulted? You would think such a god could see that people would get confused before the confusion happened. You would think that such a god would have left no option for confusion to come into the equation thus polluting such a god’s “word”.

I am just starting “Misquoting Jesus” by Ehrman. Since I believe religion to be a chaotic mess of confusion, this book might shed light & support to that theory of mine.

[quote author=“Noggin”]For me, it was kind of like the space probes that have to slingshot themselves around the moon in order to get enough thrust out of orbit. The gravitational pull of religion was that strong for me. Trying to break out of that on my own was nearly impossible.

It’s either that or I am just one incredibly dense moron.

The analogy is perfect. It comes down to either achieving escape velocity, or not. Believers may think we do it willfully and wantonly, but my escape was not at all what I set out to achieve. It was only reality that I was after, not the huger situation that resulted. Maybe most people get a glimpse of that possibility, and manage to shut off the nagging questions before it’s too late? That never worked for me, and praying for answers seemed to only make it worse.

I think many Christians who visit here wonder how we make this “decision”. But the only decision I remember making—and it had to be made a hundred times over the span of a few years, because of fear—was to keep returning to the evidence (or lack of, in this case) without shying away. It was not a matter of choosing or deciding; it just unraveled. That was what finally made the gravity of belief less overwhelming.

I tell you where I get the most discouraging feeling, Nogs, is when I look at the statistics, since a search of atheism stats invariably brings up stories about how hated non-believers are, and how that encourages secrecy among them. I get very low, thinking about what this will mean for me—someone who loves talking and digging into people’s thoughts and perspectives. The alienation aspect had never really occurred to me, although if it had, I still don’t think it would have had any effect on the outcome. This was not a choice.

Sigh. Just a bluesy day, I guess. And no Superdaddy to make it all better .

.

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