Unfortunately! I think we'd have had a good crack at them this series. I can't see us beating them in a World Cup though it'd be killing two birds with one stone (beating NZ and reaching a semi in the RWC) which is probably a step too far for any side.

If a player retaliates to foul play under provocation from an opponent, send them both to the bin, but award the penalty against the retaliating team, so in this case, both Hartley and Coles go to the bin, but England gets the PK.

IMO, provocation is foul play under Law 10.4 (m)....

[TEXTAREA]10.4 (m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/TEXTAREA]

....and should be treated as serious foul play

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You know full well that all over the pitch you get technically illegal shirt holding, grabbing at the rucks, cases of players taking a long time to get back onside after a tackle, causing a bit of a obstruction but the referee knows he can't quite take action against this because he's not quite slow enough and if he did there would be 200 penalties per game and rugby would be ruined forever as a spectacle. In short, lots of pretty 'acts of unsportmans-like conduct' which are impossible to tackle within a single game without seeming to 'move the goalposts on accepted norms'. Its amazing because these things are so commonplace yet you don't pluck out this sort of argument until it's Dylan Hartley against New Zealand at Twickenam, at which point you suddenly zero in on it. Yes, he's a right @rse of a player but he's ultimately subject to the same laws as every other player.

By the way smartcooky, I'm still waiting for the day when you decide to try and use your alleged 'objective' knowledge of the game for anything other than in the service of your own country.

i've mentioned it repeatedly but it's been ignored for the whinging about Coles getting a yellow card for violence.

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Was this the time where, in the middle of the field, he made absolutely no attempt to get back onside before entering the ruck? he knew the officials would not bother to card it in the middle of the field or even notice it for that matter, but doing so was actually as disruptive to the other teams momentum as if it had happened in NZ's 22.

Exactly and id be surprised if Hansen hasnt said to him to make sure he connects if he's going to do anything that stupid again! ; )

See experience counts for something, good old Andrew "baby seal hunter" Hore would of sorted that situation out quick smart.... ask Bradley Davies about that one!

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What a revolting post.
Have the cheek to moan about a few nobs in the crowd booing then justify/glorify violence on the pitch.
Hore is nothing but a cheap shot c*nt - that's why noone but kiwis have a shred of respect for the scum.

I imagine you'll move on to BOD had it coming to him on the lions tour, too? How dare he take to a pitch and play against the all blacks. Someone should have crow barred his knees on the walk out of the tunnel.

Was this the time where, in the middle of the field, he made absolutely no attempt to get back onside before entering the ruck? he knew the officials would not bother to card it in the middle of the field or even notice it for that matter, but doing so was actually as disruptive to the other teams momentum as if it had happened in NZ's 22.

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yes, and I seem to recall another occasion, about 5 from the line, when he gets spat out eh back and stands up between Care and the ball and then slowly walks back onside.

what was really need was for someone to clear him out 100 miles an hour whiplash style, both to make sure he doesn't do it again, and secondly to flash it up to the ref. We are genuinely not street smart enough.

Under normal circumstances. no, but if the referee judges that it is being done to provoke the opponent, then yes.

I would like to see the referee with a tool in his toolkit that allows him to bin a player if he is committing foul play in order to provoke a reaction from an opponent. Jersey pulling a player without the ball IS foul play - 10.4 (e).

One of the key management issues for referees is trying to avoid what we call "flashpoints". There are areas or acts within the game that are likely to start fights. If the referee allows the flashpoints to go unchecked, he can end up with an unpleasant game on his hands.

The following is from the Hawkes Bay Rugby Referees Association Training and development guidelines but it pretty much applies across all levels of the game

[TEXTAREA]FOUL PLAY MANAGEMENT DURING THE GAME

Recognise flashpoints
- Late, early or high tackles and charges (e.g . shoulder)
- Cheapâ€ shots (e.g. elbows, shoulder), and those big hits where thereâ€™s yahooing afterwards!
- Players on the ground after a tackle; arriving players climbing on top
- Interference or running obstruction
- Pillars or guard dogs and the ruck/maul phase
- Language and/or sledging, particularly at school lower club grade level
- Scrums: halfback touching the scrums; halfbacks obstructing each other, No 7â€™s â€“ changing angle, sticking leg out in attempt to prevent non-feeding halfback following the ball.

Be confident and eyeball defenders

Be prepared to act strongly and swiftly if the situation demands â€“ MAKE THE HARD CALLS

Remember, justice must be seen to be done, especially by the non-offending teams

Take your time following the offence ; be cool, calm and collected. Do not finger point or handle players

Take your time restarting the game, shorten advantage if necessary, do not allow prolonged rucking or mauling until you feel you have the game back under control

Sin Bin â€“ use where appropriate, especially for persistent or wilful infringements
[/TEXTAREA]

Overall, I would like to see the niggly provocative stuff such as jersey pulling, bitch slapping & elbowing eliminated from the game. Dealing with it harshly is one way of doing it,; it makes it not worth the risk.

yes, and I seem to recall another occasion, about 5 from the line, when he gets spat out eh back and stands up between Care and the ball and then slowly walks back onside.

what was really need was for someone to clear him out 100 miles an hour whiplash style, both to make sure he doesn't do it again, and secondly to flash it up to the ref. We are genuinely not street smart enough.

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Agree - but if Nigel Owens hasn't taken action against it then he probably hasn't seen it as a problem - therefore a 100 miles an hours clear out is more likely to be viewed as a tackle or something off the ball and might be punished. What you really need is the referee to stop it happening in the first place. Not sure why this isn't happening.

Overall, I would like to see the niggly provocative stuff such as jersey pulling, bitch slapping & elbowing eliminated from the game. Dealing with it harshly is one way of doing it,; it makes it not worth the risk.

Agree - but if Nigel Owens hasn't taken action against it then he probably hasn't seen it as a problem - therefore a 100 miles an hours clear out is more likely to be viewed as a tackle or something off the ball and might be punished. What you really need is the referee to stop it happening in the first place. Not sure why this isn't happening.

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To be fair Owen Farrell absolutely creamed McCaw at one ruck, when he was on the wrong side/not moving.
Kaino took real exception and was all up in Farrell's face, but he stood his ground and laughed in his face.

I think McCaw's been around far too long for something like that to change the way he plays. If the referee isn't threatening a card then he'll keep doing it until he is.

To be fair Owen Farrell absolutely creamed McCaw at one ruck, when he was on the wrong side/not moving.
Kaino took real exception and was all up in Farrell's face, but he stood his ground and laughed in his face.

I think McCaw's been around far too long for something like that to change the way he plays. If the referee isn't threatening a card then he'll keep doing it until he is.

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yeah it won't change what he does but it might flag it up enough for that game... to be honest the only way you're going to beat mccaw is to get there first, or clear him out as primary threat.

I don't see many Kiwi's extrapolating their complaints about Nigel Owens, to how English fans are so desperate to be at a level they aren't at, that they are unwilling to see a game where calls were continuously in their favor.

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Thing is, though, everyone who isn't a Kiwi says that Owens was equal, at best, or leaning towards favouring the All Blacks.

Or how they somehow can reason 82,000 spectators singing over the top of 23 people issuing a challenge to the other players, isn't boorish behavior.

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That's just ridiculous. The Haka's a challenge, and the crowd responded. It's not some mythical beast that everyone has to stand around and watch in pure silence before slinking away with their tails between their legs.
The players say the love the atmosphere when Swing Low starts pouring out from the stands - it's not disrespect, everybody bloody loves the Haka.

Thing is, though, everyone who isn't a Kiwi says that Owens was equal, at best, or leaning towards favouring the All Blacks.

That's just ridiculous. The Haka's a challenge, and the crowd responded. It's not some mythical beast.
The players say the love the atmosphere when Swing Low starts pouring out from the stands - it's not disrespect, everybody bloody loves the Haka.

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There doesn't seem to be many neutral people posting much on this thread.

Regardless I'm closing the thread. I see this getting uglier before it gets better.