Guest Post: John Michael Greer: If the Four Horsemen Arrive, Offer Beer

"We have a national mythology that limits are always bad. In fact, we have a national phobia of limits," wryly observes John Michael Greer: author, historian, conservationist, and proprietor of the popular weblog The Archdruid Report[21]. "We need to get past that."

We need to come to terms with the fact that wedon’t have limitless energy, we don’t have limitless resources, we don’t have limitless time. All of these things are specific. They function within a finite world. And engaging in hand waving about well, human ingenuity is limitless. No, it isn’t. Okay, it may be immense, but it’s not limitless.

And so getting past that fetish of limitlessness strikes me as the most important thing. All of us are going to die – each individual person listening to this show and everybody else as well. That’s a limit we can’t get past. And you’ll notice that people who actually face that limit and say okay, I get this, I have a finite amount of years on this earth and them I’m going to die. What am I going to do with the time that I have? Those are the people that we call mature. Those are the people we call wise. Those are the people who go out and have a life instead of just frittering their time away.

I think we need to do that as a society. We need to say nobody guaranteed America its particular place in the sun. Nobody guaranteed that it would continue to hang together, or that this Constitution – which I think is a very smart document – will continue to function when it’s being ignored by almost everybody. We need to accept that the world’s not functioning in our favor, that we have to function within realistic sets of limitations within which everything should operate. And then we might actually be able to get off our duff and do something creative with the time we have on this earth.

If you’ve ever seen a fifty-year-old man trying to pretend that he’s seventeen, it’s embarrassing. It’s embarrassing to everybody and it rarely ends well. That’s what America is right now. It’s two hundred something years old. It’s not an adolescent anymore. It needs to ditch the bright red car, stop trying to pick up teenage chicks, stop the binge drinking, and actually deal with the fact that there’s only so many years left. You need to do something useful with that time and not go around with everybody else – you know, China and Europe -- just rolling their eyes and trying to pretend that they don’t notice how we’ve combed our hair forward over our bald spot.

So, then, what does using our time wisely look like?

Probably two-thirds of the energy we use in this country is wasted. Those of our listeners who have been over to Europe know that they don’t live in caves over there. They get by very comfortably on a third of the energy use per person than we use over here. We could easily -- easily -- decrease our energy use over a ten to twenty year period to European levels. And once we did so, we’d find that a lot of our international problems would go away in a hurry.

Okay, so the first thing, as we used to say back in the day, back in the 1970s and early 1980s when the whole appropriate tech movement was a growing concern, weatherize before you solarize. You first of all conserve what you have, then you can look at converting to renewables to do things with it.

What would we do that would be sensible? Get out of the empire business. If you do it voluntarily, as Britain demonstrated, you can maintain a lot. If it’s dragged from your cold dead hands, that’s not particularly helpful to you. We would be looking at rebuilding – we used to have the best rail system in the world. At this point, it would be a disgrace to a collapsing Banana Republic. We could fix that relatively easily. We’d provide inexpensive, safe, comfortable, easy rail travel all over the country at a tiny fraction of the energy we now waste on superhighways and air travel. I could go on for a week talking about things that we could do if we were actually going to be reasonable about making the best possible use of the energy we have left.

I would point out that one of the ways we can look at this is what an exciting time this is to be alive. What an astonishing opportunity we have to create – with our own lives, with our own choices – to literally shape the future ahead of us.

So what I advise is that people start by looking at their own lives and saying okay, how is my life going to change as energy constraints continue to squeeze in, and then get ahead of the change instead of being dragged along behind it. Get ahead of it, give yourself some space, work through the learning curve picking up the skills you’re going to need. Do it now, so that by the time it’s necessary, you’re comfortable with it, you know what you’re doing.

You’ve already insulated your place. You may have a solar hot water system in place if you can afford one. You’ve torn up some of the grass in back and turned it into a vegetable garden so that you can stretch out staples. You know how to cook from scratch so you’re not dependent on the vast corporate structure. You maybe started developing some tradable skills. You’ve got a little basement workshop where you’re doing something you can barter with your friends. You’re brewing beer in the basement, you know? That’s actually my number one suggestion for a lot of people – learn how to brew beer. If the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse knock on your door and you can offer each of them a cold one, they’re your friends.

Click the play button below to listen to Chris' interview with John Michael Greer (46m:45s):

If your organization has a policy or practice that doesn't benefit minorities equally, watch out: The Obama administration could sue you for racial discrimination under a dubious legal theory that many argue is unconstitutional.

The key is finding entirely new resources, not using the old resources more efficiently.

Unfortunately, finding new energy resources is contraindicated as a success factor in implementing the NWO, therefore, successes in this area tend to get squashed. Tesla had it all figured out a century ago, but he didn't fit into The Plan, so the best part of his work vanished down the memory hole. We have been living in the Dark Ages, relatively speaking, since then.

It assumes that there is an increase of efficiency in use of a resource, which lowers the effective price of the use of that resource, so it gets used MORE, which overshoots the prior usage rate, because there are so many ways to use what is now effectively a cheaper thing per unit output.

This is not the case when there is incremental adaptation to something getting more and more rare and expensive.

In this case it never gets effectively cheaper to use more energy. Efficiency adaptations fail to reach break-even on cost, so the pressure to use less is maintained.

"At that time many in Britain worried that coal reserves were rapidly dwindling, but some experts opined that improving technology would reduce coal consumption. Jevons argued that this view was incorrect, as further increases in efficiency would tend to increase the use of coal. Hence, improving technology would tend to increase, rather than reduce, the rate at which England's coal deposits were being depleted."

I don't see anything about price or cost there.

The scarcest resource is human attention. When all our attention is focused on getting more and more from less and less, it's a prescription for failure. Just as human beings moved from burning wood, to burning coal, to burning oil, our only hope for success is figuring out what comes after oil, not figuring out how to use oil more efficiently.

The worry that reserves are dwindling is not the same as the terminal decline in reserves that we now see.

In England, there was much more coal to pull from the ground, and efficiencies in mining, coupled with more efficient machines burning coal, led to a big increase in the amount of useful work output, from the coal.

More coal got mined (more efficiently) and burned (more efficiently).

If the "concerns" about reserves had been FACTS, as we can now be assured that they are, then coal use would have tapered off as supply fell, and the coal became rarer and more costly.

Coal got cheaper in those days, not more expensive. Projections of dwindling reserves were premature. The technology of mining was immature.

We are now looking at very mature technology and science for the extractive industries. Oil price tripled and production remained approximately the same from 2005 until now.

The situations are different when you are on the gradually rising part of the development curve, vs the beginning of decline of a mature technology.

For one thing, progressive development is slow, and decline is fast. One can't really get ahead of the curve when decline goes over the cliff.

One has to be careful in applying good lessons to the wrong situation.

You are making my argument for me. If increased efficiency helps us only at the early part of the resource utilization curve, and not the endgame, then you just agreed with me, and disagreed with Greer.

We have merely been discussing Jevon's Paradox, as far as I could tell.

Greer is not perfect in his assumptions about how we could rebuild our rail system.

The rail system buildup came over a long period of time, and allowed vast forests to be cut, coal and gold to be mined, cattle to be carried to market, etc. It was the main avenue for all commerce in North America, once the Misssissippi was traversed.

If you are disagreeing with his assertion that the entire infrastructure of this country, built since WW-2, can be rebuilt for European type compact and efficient cities, then we see that the same.

It can't.

You can build all this stuff when an economy is in ascension, but in decline, you just have to scavenge and get by.

It depends, and is application specific.I've been switching to LED and CFLs from incandescents in my house and although my power usage (and bill) for lighting literally is a fraction of what it was I don't use more lumens; my demand for lumens per sqft has an upper limit. Similarly with my car. I have a hybrid, use considerably less gas but don't drive more.I understand that lowering unit costs in a developing society is likely to increase total consumption but you have to take into account what the constraint to more unit demand is - and in my case, which likely is quite typical in the west - 10 bucks more or less on my electric bill do not dictate demand though clearly in other societies it very well may be.In my specific case increasing efficiency is decreasing total demand, but, like I said, if my constraint to more consumption was the number of currency units it likely would be different.

In England they don't pull much coal from the ground anymore. I believe another pit closure was announced last week. France is the same. Oil and gas are going the same way. The benefits of burning through the Country's reserves are hard to see.

You sever your use of a fuel not by using it more efficiently, but by finding a superior substitute for it. That's how the human race moves forward and thrives.

Greer is one of these tiresome Club of Rome "Limits of Growth" types, which is foundational to the New World Order. The NWO is a Culture of Death that prefers that 80% of humanity would just die already, and isnt just sitting around waiting for that to happen, if ou get my gist. The opposite view of course is that we don't know what the future holds, and that human beings will figure out a way to thrive by accessing newer and better resources through application of our God-given talents and honest efforts.

A lot of Zero Hedgers are still waking up to the "Limits to Growth" scam. Some of the most devout, arm-waving, teeth-gnashing "Global Warming" / "Sustainability" zealots have never investigated the source of the Green Agenda. They've never heard of Agenda 21.

Thanks - I nearly choked. The Stones are indeed the poster boys of eternal adolescent self indulgence, and their faces bear testament to every excess and debauchery that was wallowed in. They remind me of Boris Karloff unwrapped in The Mummy.

You see any talk of voluntary energy reduction for the greater good instantly becomes "communism/socialism" for the right.

This guy is right on as well of course. 2\3 of the energy is wasted. This is not a freedom issue. "Don't tell me what I can or can't drive!"

Freedom to drive whatever you like or heat how many thousands of square feet it takes to make you feel manly is not freedom at all. When you have to support despicable monarchies in the middle east, AND have to invade others in Nazi style pre-emptive wars, well then you Lincoln Navigator becomes a weapon of mass destruction.

Now if the US only relied on domestic and Canadian/Mex oil sure fine, but it doesn't and being an energy pig is not being free or supporting freedom at all.

I don't think Thomas Jefferson and friends had GMC duallys in mind when framing works on freedom.

I believe that Greer is stressing conservation first. Anyone who has a clue certainly isn't going to believe that "efficiency" is going to save us; I suspect that it's tossed out there because it's at least a means for people to start understanding the importance of conservation. And yes, I've known about Jevons Paradox for many years: I refer to it regularly (as a teaching aid/club).

People are free to voluntarily or involuntarily learn how important energy is in their lives. And if one finds that it's of an involuntary nature it may only be so because one is not so much FORCED by social paradigms but by physical reality (mother nature). Denial has led to the grounding of many ships.

The wisest know to see things in opportunistic ways, to get a jump on what WILL be (being careful to separate from what OTHERS are saying it will be). It's either that or find oneself bitter and blaming everyone else for the problems wrought by improper planning. If more people would be more proactive, assertive and responsible for their own lives we'd find that all the bastards would have less power (and wouldn't be able to leverage greed to astronomical levels).

Regarding Carter, all that he said about energy was correct. It's the Message; don't care about the Messenger. I've got lots of warm clothes. Also have a wood stove (my wife will use it for simple cooking) and a fair sized wood lot...

Conservation of energy, Bucko! If you cannot comprehend that then you're certain to fail (as is the case with ANYTHING in nature that tries it).

Fuck, "superior substitutes." This is a fucking finite planet. There is NO way that you can alter this fact. Anything "superior" is only going to mean greater population sizes, which then result in more trashing of the planet. I had a bunch of cattle run through my property recently, they really tore the fuck out of things. I'd done some grading and lots of the ground was still bare. A few cattle it wouldn't have been much of a problem. LOTS of cattle = BIG problem. While you have your head stuffed in the clouds there are many who still have their feet on the ground (and can actually see reality).

Betting on something that doesn't exist in nature is certain failure. A loser goes against nature. Only those who wish to enslave others continue to concoct such fantasies as "technology will save us." Go ahead and hitch up to that wagon (but don't make me or anyone else hitch up to it)- hang on to your iCrap as the Drone circles overhead- ah, ain't technology grand? NOTE: You'll be dispatched before you can even open your eyes, by the very "superior substitute" that you're slaving away for for those handful of rulers... Hubris really is such a nasty thing!

You can use words like "loser" and "defeat" all you want but using them doesn't make them fact (or probable outcome). But, hey, rather than use facts why not use attack words and tied old messages such as "superior," right? And, it sounds so like rooting for one's team/party!

Your first mistake was assuming that Jimmy Carter was right about anything. His track record was unblemished by success in any dimension.

Sorry Buckaroo...but you are wrong. Jimma was right about that one thing. Even a broken clock is right twice a day....so accept it and deal with it.

Although I have been a conservative all my life....I like hanging out with and associating with most Conservatives less and less. They are really not Conservatives at all....since most do not conserve. They simply consume....and have the money to do so without consequence. Most are pigs of another stripe....just like the so called liberal pigs at the trough of government largesse....conservatives are pigs at the trough of mercantile captialist consumerism.

What they consider freedom is simply chains of slavery of another kind....but most are too stupid to realize it.

And drill baby drill won't help since all that expensive tech to get at hard to extract and hard to refine oil...even if there are TONS of it...will not make oil and its by products any cheaper.

I'll challenge you as to which is more efficient, a Lincoln Navigator or a Prius...

Well, I won't likely be hanging around long enough to provide a follow up rebuttal so I'll just provide the answer now...

We're talking about TOOLS. It TOTALLY depends on the job at hand. You need to assess the efficiency based on use.

If you need to tow a big load it ain't going to happen with the Prius.

Since most will be arguing efficiency in MPG terms I'll continue my answer along Those lines.

Is that Prius at 50 MPG REALLY more fuel efficient than the 15 MPG Navigator? (it's a guestimate about actual numbers, though I suspect that the numbers are relatively close to reality)

OK... Tool Use... Personal vehicles are for, well, moving one's person. So, the Prius is more efficient at moving ONE person than the Navigator. However, if we start talking about moving MORE people then we really ought to expand our thinking and the terms used. I've coined the term to define what I believe is a more meaningful measure- People Miles Per Gallon (PMPG). If I were to load that Navigator with 6 people then it would be getting 90 PMPG [CORRECTION: 95 PMPG]. If the Prius only had one person it would be 50 PMPG. So, it really matters how the tools are being used. My casual observations would, however, tend to conclude that there tends to be more people in the Priuses than in the Navigators.

Rather than blast something I think it better to blast USAGE as being incorrect/wasteful. Nature doesn't scold for energy waste, it just has something eat that which has over-extended energy.

I have an econo-car (only 38 PMPG because I'm a pig commuter [SOV]) .AND a PIG car. OK, the "PIG" car is actually an old diesel truck that's my farm truck; I use it to HAUL stuff that couldn't be hauled in my econo-car. Both vehicles are at least 20 years old and fully depreciated: the diesel truck consumes less fuel than most trucks because it's simple and not all tweaked (I'm a big fan of turbos but there's Jevons Paradox to be considered), and hauling is more efficient than with gasoline engined trucks; and, it's easy to repair- easier to sustain; PMPG isn't really known because it gets very few miles put on it).

no we won't have a invasion from the sea or air with the logistics alone defeating an armed invasion. but leave things go as they are and the balkinization of america would present an easy pathway to create a civil war in this country. we been doing it all over the world. to other countries. maybe the chinese train africans to work with U S drug gangs to destablize large urban areas. maybe local politicians are bought off to allow defacto control of entire cities by criminal organizations funded by foriegn governments. just fictional thinking.

It's kind of fun to watch the weakest of white people get all afraid when they see their racial privilege deteriorating.

What a flaming idiot. How does being a racist make money? I mean besides Sen Robert Byrd(D), Al Sharpton(D), Jesse Jackson(D), Bill Clinton(D) and his pals, Gov. Orville Faubus(D) and Sen. Bill Fulbright(D). Go buy some Coogi, ass wipe.

Detroit, Obama's Model American Community!

Anyway, to get a job preference, doesn't one have to want a job first? Why do that when government pays and one does not perceive any danger in the scam.

Pretty sure that is the exact sort of behavior these laws are directed at. Disparate services.

You may need to bring in some minorities to provide their comments and give me at least 23 more up votes.

Otherwise you are in violation and subject to the fines.

Or maybe not but you're still being racist fucks.

Good luck competing with superior minorities when the deck is no longer stacked in your favor.

Time for me to short Gamestop while you all get your asses back to trade school so you can be better janitors and wrench monkeys for your black supervisors who have actually been working hard their whole lives.

Keep playing that race card, it gets less effective everytime. From the boorish Affirmative Action hires, to the illiterate welfare parasites, to the feral packs of criminals, the country has negro fatigue.

But you don't know when to quit, do you? You're on the "social justice" warpath, and you're going to keep pushing your grubby federal government-aided hands into the white man's pockets until the country gets negro hatred.

He's definitely smoking something. I wish I had a dime for every time one of these guys said it was all over, we're running out of energy. We're we supposed to run out in the 80"s?

When / if we get close you can bet that the big money interests already have the replacement technology or some new innovative way to replace oil or gas. They likely have it right now but there's too much money to be made in the current system.

This crap reminds me of the overpopulation argument, every time I hear it I wonder if those claiming we are too overpopulated have ever been in an airplane and seen all the empty land all over the world.

Oh yeah, and we'll be out of fresh water and O2 any minute now as global warming is putting us in tight supply.

nothing to do with banning/legislating against onshore oil exploration or pumping then

or shallow water oil exploration and pumping

or loading employees with so many rights, welfare and demands they made US labour uncompetitive

so when recently the US Govt spat their dummies out the pram how much oil's imported, as US production has been in terminal decline because of Govt micro-meddling for decades, they blamed everyone and everything, but themselves

As long as Big fucking entities exist we're going to be screwing ourselves. Doesn't matter whether it's govt or "business." (I use quotes because if you look close enough there's little difference- so, it's why I slap folks who are only "zero govt" but are OK with "big business" [not saying you're one]).

Don't forget the Clarion Call... We are all going to Drown as sea levels rise due to Global "warming", glaciers melting and polar ice thinning.

For goodness sake Glaciers have been melting since the last ice age and when they do, they make lovely fertile valleys.

But, But But.. The Kiribati Islands are drowning! Well Yes, I guess there is that perspective but a better one would be to acknowledge that the tectonic plate upon which they sit is sinking at one end and rising at the other. It a bit like Venice flooding today. The bloody place has sunk 8 inches in the last 40 years. Its not the ocean rising.

Its the fear of the sky falling or the boy crying wolf.

However the human race is a Virus upon the earth and 2% growth in anything will mean a doubling in 36years (rule 72) and thats a doubling of everything energy, food, water, human waste and pollution.

And still we hear cries for 4,5,8% economic growth less we deflate.

Fucking insanity. Stop and think ... your on a petrie dish and your not getting off it (oh How I love George Carlins take on that)

Humans are their own viri. But, yes, good to see someone else who understand the perils of perpetual growth on a finite planet.

Climate change, IS real. If it weren't then we wouldn't be here today. One can argue over what causes major climactic shifts, but one cannot argue that they don't happen. Further, given that the earth does in fact have cycles, it's a good bet that one will occur again. As someone with a penchant toward farming I'd have to say that I'm partial to the description presented by John D. Hamaker in his book The Survival of Civilization: it's basically nature performing a big re-till of the earth.

Read some of his stuff some time. He might be one of the most highly read(history, and lots more) writers we have today. Don't be put off by the Archdruid thing.. Ignore that and just read what the man has to say.

His articles (which I have read many many) are some of the best researched, and well written ones I come across( and I read ALOT).

His perspective is unique, and since he lives a VERY simple life, he has time for something that I think is often overlooked today. He actually has time to REFLECT and PONDER before he puts pen to the paper.

Give him a chance, think of most of the 'Great' writers. We would most likely not want to trade lifes with many of them... Take Hemmingway, Poe... pick one.

He did a 5 part fiction piece about how the empire might come to it's end just recently. Highly suggest reading it.

Give him a chance. I and VERY suprised and VERY happy that ZH posted him.

One of the reasons I love ZH. TD casts his net wide and includes many different perspectives.

is your narrow-minded thinking incapable of considering the possiblity that someone who has been given the title archdruid would be able to have cogent intelligent thinking that adds to our knowledge and understanding of the world?

why is "doctor" or "professor" better?

weak-minded people need labels as a crutch, because they are too lazy to look at things for what they are, without labels.

try going beyond your simple minded assumptions and actually listen what he has to say, greer makes a lot of sense.

Yep. And the Afghan tribesman and Mongol nomads live on probably less than 1/100th by living in tents, or yurts and burning dried animal dung for cooking and heating fires.

Reminded of my first visit to the rellies in the UK, High Wycombe not far outside of London. Recently retired couple living in the same cottage they'd lived in for most of their lives. All the interior doors shut to save heat, and a small coal-burning fireplace in the living room, and nice cozy sweaters all 'round, huddled around the fireplace drinking piping hot tea. Yes indeed, voluntarily giving up the empire was good to them.

There almost seems to be an air of panic from those who angrily and defiantly scream for their right to all the goodies they have clung to as their source of identity. If they want to define themselves by those "freedoms" and go out with their sportscars, bimbos, and latest gadget in their cold, dead hands, then fine.

But life and nature have a funny way of reminding us what is imperative, or even preferred, for conducting a meaningful life.

There was never a more humble, peaceful, contented man than my farmer grandfather. I prefer to emulate his life than stubbornly cling to the abject emptiness of on-demand materialism.

You can't take anything with you to the other side, but you CAN take the knowledge of a life lived in honor and leave a legacy for those that follow in your footsteps.

But it seems that so many in this world only care about themselves and the fleeting pleasure that they can obtain. No one is perfect...NO ONE. But living a nihilistic existence is just sad....

I can't waitto live in a high density housing project where I never have to guess what my neighbors are eating orwatching on the TV. It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there that are adults that don't want to live like a Berliner.

There are plenty of people on this planet who would see "Little House on The Prairie" as being a step up in life. We here are living well above the majority of people on this planet. And given that things can only do one of three things, 1) stay the same, 2) move up, or 3) move down, (note that staying the same is mostly just a transitory point, a brief interlude between the other two) I'd be careful about feeling smug about one's position (think you can keep moving up?).

Even though (or maybe especially because) I have participated in the past in the rightfully despised, stress-inducing exercise in gross resource waste that is the daily American commute, I never fail to recognize that this vast daily migration of multi-ton vehicles, most containing a single occupant, will be looked upon in the future as one of the greatest acts of mass insanity in world history. And while I no longer am forced into taking part in my much-hated former daily commute, I would have LOVED to have been able to use public transportation in lieu of driving my own car most days, and have been relieved of the stress of having to deal with icy roads and the many gadget-distracted semi-suicidal (and semi-homicidal) other drivers.

i figured up sometime ago, roughly 1 in 7,500 die every year in auto related accidents. not very good odds imo... i think you can get close to those kind of odds on a long shot winning the world series pre-season

Sigh, in order to shift forward I found that I had to go backwards... I commuted by bicycle for five years straight before moving to the country, and I now have to actually commute by the killer automobile :-( Straddling between two worlds is VERY tough! As more and more "jobs" are lost I feel that I'll at least have some means of sustenance from my property, but I won't have means for moving myself and a heap of metal very far: still have my bicycle (same with my wife); topography, however, is a bitch when contemplating moving goods by bicycle (could be done, but it'll be a bit of strain on my old bones).

No, no Rapture, not accoring to the "technology will save us all" crowd. Their "vision" is cooler, rtocketships and stuff! The Rapture stuff has all these clouds of smoke and fire and is completely... like the rocketship scenario! Coke or Pepsi?

...And you’ll notice that people who actually face that limit and say okay, I get this, I have a finite amount of years on this earth and them I’m going to die. What am I going to do with the time that I have? Those are the people that we call mature. Those are the people we call wise. Those are the people who go out and have a life instead of just frittering their time away.

Frittering one's time away is a perfectly logical response, as is suicide, nihilism, and the yes, infinite other philosophies of the human race. He also goes on to say screwing young women as a 50 year old is embarrassing. Excuse me? If I'm going to die anyway why do I care if he is embarrassed for me? Why not get some sweet poontang if nothing matters? Why not fill up the hot tub and get it on with an entire sorority house while watching the big screen? Why the fuck would I want to live like him? His whole outlook on life is dorked. It offers no sane rationale for why I would want to conserve or holy fuck, act like him? Who gives a damn about who is wise and who isn't? He thinks the usa is the oldster in the bunch with china and europe? hahahahahaha! The one who steals the most and has the most toys when he dies wins. He doesn't even appeal to people's ethics or morality, only to their sense of shame of which they have none and why should they anyway since as he admits they are all going to die and after that nothing matters anyway. Needless to say I won't be joining his cult.

Way to go Buzzsaw! I'll join your cult anyday, over the lunatic this thread seems to be highlighting.

Big thumbs up to ya pal. Got some green there.

I am 51 myself, and although I do not try and act like a teenager, I do keep myself in good physical shape. I also drive a fast Sport truck (Ford Lightning) and a really bad-ass motorcycle (sUZUKI m109r). Give them up? Never!

And I absolutely do not give a damn what anyone thinks about me. They can all go jump off a bridge as far as I am concerned. I know I am going to die, and I am going to live life the way I want to for as long as that is possible. I've been prepared to die ever since I was born. Not scared of it on the least. Hell, three months ago when my wife of 20 years told me she wanted a divorce, out of the blue, I was ready to go. It got really close for a few weeks there, I was ready to eat a bullet. I got past it on my own, no witch doctors or therapy, and life goes on.

When my wife of 25 years said she wanted a divorce I was shocked and humiliated. Fucking worked my ass off for that woman. Went to the Lawyer and said how much is this going to cost. Wise as he was he said, $1680.00 and she gets everything. The price goes up in proportion to how much more north of zero you want to keep.

For the life I have now, $1680 proved to be the deal of a lifetime.

I trimmed 50 lbs of the gut, got me some new threads and some new friends and now I live without fear, fuck who I want, drink when I want, play golf , fish and tour around this great land on MY Motorbike .. When and where I want.... and never feel guilty or apoligize

Oh did I mention the 3 girlfriends, all 15 years younger than her, that fight like cats just to share my life.

at 58 life is like when I was 25 but more enjoyable. You are about to find out

Very short term planning there. Standard procedure for a failed state is for hyper-conservative values to make a come back. Theft will become a capital crime. Loose sexuality will cause you to be shunned by your neighbors at a time when they become essential for survival. Out of pure selfishness one would be smart to follow Greer's advice; collapse now, avoid the rush.

Buzzsaw will die a short brutal life in a gang, the military, or a prison camp. Although he is right there is no rational reason to do anything if you don't care about paind and death.

Bleak. Let me fill you in. My neighbors are as worthless as tits on a bull. When the shtf the only way they will be able to make a living is by sucking my cock. As for your last paragraph, egad. It is infinitely more likely that you will end up someone's bitch living in the back of some old derelict school bus and be whining about it for the rest of your poor miserable bitch-ass life.

"Frittering one's time away is a perfectly logical response, as is suicide, nihilism, and the yes, infinite other philosophies of the human race."

Suicide is a philosophy? No, I'm serious, I'd never heard that. Is that like Heaven's Gate's actions?

One can poke holes in anything if one wants to jam hard enough, if one stretches something far enough it can be broken. I'm thinking that you stretched his notion of doing something meaningful into something he was NOT trying to convey. Yeah, sure, anyone can define what the word "meaning" means, but to state that it's logical to fritter one's time away is, well, illogical in the grand scheme of nature. Nature hardly fritters. Those who fail to get it that humans ARE and OF nature fail to grasp how far removed from nature our actions have become. Your comment about frittering is only one such example.

"He doesn't even appeal to people's ethics or morality, only to their sense of shame of which they have none"

So, you think people have no sense of shame but they have ethics and morals? I'm thinking that there's a BIG loss in ethics and morals and that trying to appeal to something that people don't have is, well, illogical... But then again I find lots of problems with assuming that ethics and morals, and even shame, are necessarily natural things: of the three I suppose that there have been signs of shame demonstrated in animals, not so sure about "morals" or "ethics."

Wisdom is sorely needed. It has been overrun by technology's need for "intelligence." Wisdom is something that would allow one to evade being fooled. "Intelligence" more and more is used to fool... Ah, but nature is steeped in deception so...