Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.

This is actually a really nice way to go about the 10/25 logistic dilemma. Im assumine that each piece of loot that drops will only have a 1-2% chance of being Thunderforged (Since there are so many bosses). So this is just a nice way to still have pieces to get while we farm the content we have already cleared.

Also the fact that its available on both difficulties with a slightly higher chance on 25 means that no one is left out and people who raid 25 can still feel special. :P

Garalon is much easier on 10m, the damage requirement is much lower and theirs less raid damage, on top of the kiting situation being much easier.

No.

Ambershaper This is fight is probably the same on 10 and 25, constructs are the same, monstrosity has less life so stacking the debuff is easier, also explosions mean less people to top off.

10 men means 2 healers. less people = moar rng = 1 healer in the construct the other stunned = construct on the mage or shaman = goodbye bl on last phase.

Shekzeer. Only 1 person gets visions in 10man, I don't see how that makes it harder, with only one person to dispel, losing people being feared out is not that big of an issue. Also ads don't even need to be prisoned because of their low total health, they can actually be tanked next to shekzeer since there is only one ad phase

2 people get visions. Get your facts straight before talking about what you don't know shit. Adds need to get prisoned because if you have only an adds phase it means you have 3 healers and you can't heal phase 3 with adds going on shit on the tanks with their posion breath.

Protectors is not harder, its on par for elite and normal.

Protector is easier in heroic in 25, the boss do the same casts and you have more interrupts. World firts blood legion did it with their frapser dpsing the wrong target for over a minute. You can't even possible think about doing this in 10 men.

The best thing Blizzard did in years. 25 m raiding was almost extinguished on majority realms. People who wanted to raid 25m were forced to migrate to these few top pve realms like Twisting Nether, Kazzak, Sylvannas to get proper chance to raid format they like. This created additional imbalance on server population, creating too high or low populated realm as people migrated inside-out. Downgrading from 25m guild to 10 was so easy and so rewarding, not 25m raiding finally get some cookies. But it is very small basket, they need to add something up in the future.

stone guards for 25man you can just ignore all the mechanics by healing through it. cant do that on 10man. im talking about when heroic msv first came out.
garalon i agree except no the kiting situation isnt easier since in 10man, everyone has to kite, healers need to kite twice.
ambershaper is the same for both sizes.
shekzeer 2 people get visions, not 1. in 10man you need 4 healers. definitely harder on 10man.
tsulong i agree that it can/cannot be harder than 25man.
sha of fear is harder on 10man as well. in 25man you have 2 dps in the back passing the football, and you have enough healers/cooldowns to heal through the huddle. in 10man you have to pass the football to every huddle or else its a wipe since most often than not, 1 of the 2 healers gets huddled.
the problem with 25man and 10man besides the fact that you can carry less than stellar players in 25man more than 10(not talking about the best guilds in the world since everyone has to be amazing), is that 25man always has enough cooldowns where you can heal thru mechanics. picked up a player from a top 25man and when he would die to mechanics his excuse would be "oh we just always healed through it"

THIS FUCKING GUY

You are literally stupid, You can not heal through chains breaking in non jasper phase with out the use of healing cooldown on the duo of downs. You will go oom if people stand in pools and colbalt mines. Please stop your words are so asinine it hurts to read.
Garalon is less of dps race and more execution based, hell you can nine man only in msv epics and heroic blues.
2 people visions over 4, also transition burst damage coupled with a sonic disruptions is deadly, whereas in 10man those literally do not do nearly as high percentage of health and easier to recover from. Also sorry you don't have resto shamans. In our 10m we could two heal it with a holy and resto shaman.
Sha of Fear? Lol no, your not forced to bring 4 tanks because some of your dps is lack luster, especially with the fear the idiots can't kill their platform and return. Sure theres a chance only non retards will be sent but why risk the wipe when your dps cant pick up orbs or kill the ad in a timely manner. And no you can't heal through anything. Like dps getting gibbed in blade lord, more melee getting trapped in windlord, more risk of dieing to wind bombs because more people susceptible to lag spikes during phase 2 of windlord. Just stop this is a losing argument adn you know it.

Earth to funny guy:
10M is harder. Period. You need the skill level of each player in the 10M to be significantly higher than the average skill level in a 25M just because of all the advantages you gain. Not even having to worry about the raid buffs because you will always have every buff and debuff as a natural product of 25. 10M you actually have to craft your composition instead of throwing a bunch of driveling RANDOS together.

You get more gear in 25, 8 more pieces per week for 16 bosses.
You have the ability to carry a bunch of weaker DPS in 25, in 10 you might be able to carry 1.
You can class stack in 25M, not an option in 10M.

Name the advantages to 10M over 25M.
I can think of 2, attendance and less crybabies.

Myth Busted.

Space, easier tactical management for 10 man. No crybabies in 25m, not sure what guilds you were in. Attendance, how does that fit in? You don't usually need to class stack in 10 man, it's still shit to need to class stack in 25, not all guilds have everyone have alts of all classes. For the guilds that class stack in 25, at the same level, 10 man guilds will also class stack.
You get 6 loot in 25.

Doing 10 man HC just feels simpler, not easier just simpler.

And this new change by Blizz is worthless. Once people stop whining and think about it they'll figure out that neither 10 or 25 man will get full thunderfogged gear by the end of a normal tier so at most it will be 1-2 ilvl difference. That makes it not that bad but ultimately worthless for keeping 25 man alive.

Just give separate achis or something, extra loot without ilvl difference is just not enough to keep me in 25.

In before Blizzards next fabulous idea: Elite Thunderforged Heroic Gear, which is 6 iLvls above Thunderforged gear but totally rare! You now have at least 9 copies of every item, all teh same, just more or less statpoints. Sounds like this could really fix ... something!

10 men means 2 healers. less people = moar rng = 1 healer in the construct the other stunned = construct on the mage or shaman = goodbye bl on last phase.

2 people get visions. Get your facts straight before talking about what you don't know shit. Adds need to get prisoned because if you have only an adds phase it means you have 3 healers and you can't heal phase 3 with adds going on shit on the tanks with their posion breath.

Protector is easier in heroic in 25, the boss do the same casts and you have more interrupts. World firts blood legion did it with their frapser dpsing the wrong target for over a minute. You can't even possible think about doing this in 10 men.

Garalon's pheromone does less damage in 10man, you can stack it to LITERALLY 25-26 when 25mans are passing at 15-16 during progression kills. Why? because those 10 extra stacks are still manageable on 10 people whereas 25 is just literally too low with an incoming crush.
Lets not mention progression feng kills where 2 people get arc resonance and if your raid is retarded they literally wipe a raid, whereas in 10man you can soak a tick or two from one resonance going off in a stack.

I am very happy that Blizzard is doing something to reward 25 man raiding guilds. 25 man raiding guilds have to go through so much more work to recruit, prepare and execute encounters.

However, I do understand that some people will say, "25 man raiding is a personal decision. Why should people who choose 10 man raiding not get the same benefits? If people want to do 25 man raiding, they should just accept all of that extra work as part of the gig and stop whining for benefits."

The reason I think Blizzard needs to reward the extra effort is (regardless of anyone's feelings/leanings towards 25 vs 10) that there is a distinct difference in the atmosphere and community created in a 25 man raiding team vs a 10 man raiding team. Blizzard realizes that the ease of running a 10 man raiding guild out weighs the benefits of running a 25 man raiding guild and that a large percentage of 25 man raiding guilds have died since the switch. Blizzard does not want to lose 25 man raiding guilds because of the type of atmosphere and community they create.

If 25 man raiding guilds go extinct WoW so will that atmosphere and community and Blizzard will probably lose a vast majority of players who enjoy that. It makes good business sense to find a way to reward extra effort. I am not sure I like this idea but I am happy Blizzard is looking to reward the extra time spent running a 25 man raiding guild so that they do not disappear. They just have to find that perfect balance and, unfortunately, I do not think we will ever agree on a middle ground. This is the internetz, let's not forget.

This change will just make 25 easier than 10... they already are since the natural "nerf" of people getting geared goes faster in 25, it's going to go even faster in 25. I personally don't care, but if I were a 25 man raider, I'd be pissed that it doesn't come with an increase in difficulty.

Now the ridiculousness of that thing, it might force 10 man guilds to do 25s for farm stuff, even if they don't want to, just to help them in 10 man progression. But since they don't change the lockouts, you won't be able to do that when you start doing heroic modes.

The very good side of this is it gives you reasons to do farm stuff, where usually you bring your backups when you don't need anything. It's actually bad news for backups lol.

Well 25 man is not only hard for leaders its hard for us too since there are goddamn no 25 man guilds left to join lol. I bet even if they drop +30 ilvl in 25 mans, there will always be 10 man raiding guilds around to join.

I raid 10 mans - and I get that Blizzard wants to give an incentive or bonus to guilds that raid 25 man. I am fine with that. I've raided 25, and I understand.

What this doesn't address - is the issue of loot drop disparity in a 10 man setting. Having distributed loot in a 10 man environment all through Cata, and now MoP - the issue we have always run into is too many repeat items that get DE'd - or repeat tokens that we don't need.

My raiders want their full BiS gear just as much as anyone in a 25 man does. They are willing to work for it - and they do.

Given that both 10 and 25 have the exact same loot table size (number of items available) - in a 10 man, you are presented with 2 items off that loot table.

In practice, what we saw in Cata is we full cleared (farmed) Heroic Dragon Soul every week from March 15th (10% nerf) through Sept 18th.

That's six months of farming - and our raid couldn't get full BiS.

We are up against the same issue now - only we are under the gun of gearing up the best we can as we are presented with new content.

So, Blizzard - what do you think is a reasonable amount of time for a 10 man raid to full clear heroic content, and gear up a raid in full BiS?

The feedback of my raiders (we have all raided 25s historically), is that 25s already have incentive with more opportunity at gear upgrades - because 25s have more drops (read more %chance) in 25. Evidence, by the lesser world ranked raids on our server were able to gear up faster in their 25 man once the nerfs rolled in. I am not debating their access to the drops at end of the expansion. I am saying that their rate of gearing over two or three months seemed disparaging compared to our time spent raiding/progressing.

My feedback, and input, is that I understand (and have experienced) what it takes to keep recruitment up to keep a 25 man progression raid going - I have done it. And while I like the idea of random Thunderforged items - I would like to see in addition that 10 mans are given an extra % chance for a third item to drop from the loot table. Is it 25% chance? 40% chance? I don't know.

But we need something to help us get over the hump of repeated item drops that get DEd.

I get that there will always be RNG, and that is a part of the game. But my gut feeling is - I should be able to completely gear my raiders with the gear they want after 6 months of farming content.

This change will just make 25 easier than 10... they already are since the natural "nerf" of people getting geared goes faster in 25, it's going to go even faster in 25. I personally don't care, but if I were a 25 man raider, I'd be pissed that it doesn't come with an increase in difficulty.

Now the ridiculousness of that thing, it might force 10 man guilds to do 25s for farm stuff, even if they don't want to, just to help them in 10 man progression. But since they don't change the lockouts, you won't be able to do that when you start doing heroic modes.

This. all 25 players who say 25 man is harder than 10 man. They used the upgrade mechanic to avoid nerfing raids, now they just give it to 25 man and make it so much easier.