UK ready to take on Israel over fate of children clapped in irons

Originally posted by ZIPMATT
UK ready to take on Israel over fate of children clapped in irons .

Maybe , just maybe .

with Sir Gerald Kauffman and Lady Baroness Tonge

we , the british should immediately expunge any zionists from our country , and bar their entry , and block trade from israel .

Which Jews are not considered to be Zionist?

I believe there is a group called Jews Against Zionism. Not all Jews are Zionists. Just like not all whites are members of the Klu Klux Klan, not all
Muslims are part of Al Queda, and not all blacks are Black Panthers. Most people are good. It's just that the bad ones are more noticeable. It
doesn't always make the news when someone helps another person. But kill, maim, or rob someone and people take notice.

I got ripped off for $70 by a black person once. And once I was protected by a black guy, from being attacked by another black guy.

It would be nice if the US didn't support them no questions asked. I wish my country would chose better allies.

I don't hate Israel. I do hate their government, MORE than my own. We start BS wars and kill millions for profit, but in the end we go home. We
don't punish people for being from land we want. I don't know.

This is awful. I think of my child as well as others I know very well and imagine them going through this.

I would leave this world in a blinding furry of hate and despair if this was done to me or my children.
This is what they call "surviving"??

actually only a third of the world population of Jews openly support Zionism.(Torah jews website) The rest do or don't depending on who is around.
Most don´t at the end of the day, they just support their fellow Jews which is understandable.

Oh and Torah Jews don't support Zionism either since it supposedly goes against the tenants of the Torah.

How many children did the United States kill or terrorize in Iraq? Afghanistan? Libya? Pakistan? My government claims it was justified because
they were associated with or even just NEAR known terrorists. How many of those instances involved British troops as well as American? Being that
it's almost a daily occurrence for Palestinians to send rockets or suicide bombers into Israel, I'd say their justification severely trumps anything
either of our English speaking countries could claim.

Originally posted by ZIPMATT
UK ready to take on Israel over fate of children clapped in irons .

Maybe , just maybe .

with Sir Gerald Kauffman and Lady Baroness Tonge

we , the british should immediately expunge any zionists from our country , and bar their entry , and block trade from israel .

Which Jews are not considered to be Zionist?

I believe there is a group called Jews Against Zionism. Not all Jews are Zionists. Just like not all whites are members of the Klu Klux Klan, not all
Muslims are part of Al Queda, and not all blacks are Black Panthers. Most people are good. It's just that the bad ones are more noticeable. It
doesn't always make the news when someone helps another person. But kill, maim, or rob someone and people take notice.

I got ripped off for $70 by a black person once. And once I was protected by a black guy, from being attacked by another black guy.

Well said!

ATS, for example, makes a great point in itself. Go figure

Consider that ATS has members from all over the world. I would say, more so on the "democratic" countries, than communist countries. In alot of
ways, Id say that the US as a country has the most influence than all countries combined. I can say in ways, it has stood by it's name in many ways,
and many ways it has failed it's people by lies, deciet, crookery of every... Every sort.

Tell me what government, what country standing today has not?

The US along with many countries have gone in to help those crying for freedom. I served. Im grateful of this great land that God has allowed us to
live upon. Ive seen nice and ugly in people, some more on both sides, but never have I seen a good man walking among us.

Ive seen things man...!

nah, just kidding

The point is, we have people from every culture here, even though we dont have people from every country here.

We have many more that we dont know about because we just enjoy reading and dont have much of an opinion. Still and the same, we have many people
here from many cultures, many ideas, and thoughts of what right and wrong should be. But I seldom see anyone touching on the good and evil of it,
less they be bashed to hell!

So with this being said, Id hate to see that I, among the newbs of the bunch, came to a place where one culture pushes ideals on another, rather than
the conglomeration of information for the beloved reader that keeps this place alive. Wars are for governments, yet it bleeds into this.

There is good and bad in all, but I have not yet met one who is pure in either. Call it karma or whatever you wish, there comes a simple point in
life where a decision shouldnt rest on anything other than what's the good and evil of it. I can say that when looking through a childs eyes and
experiancing his/her horrible death, all the pain, suffering and misery that comes after still, the finger pointing, the calls for blood wars, the
crys for vengeance that will surely fall on more innocent souls.. a never ending chain effect, is enough to know that it's wrong. It is evil.

Convient you left out the first quote where the person I was responding to was Djack. All my responses were suppose to be to him and I accidentally
copied your name insted of his while I was posting my responses. Since all the propoganda and denials from you guys are the same its easy to see how I
got the names confused.

Get over yourself and check your overly dramatic protests at the door.

Convenient? WTF? Dude, you quoted Djacks post then manually inserted my name into the quotes, attempting to make it seem like I have said something I
hadn't. Your excuses are meaningless and I now no longer trust anything you say on ATS.

I deleted the Djack bit simply because it wasn't relevant, assuming any intelligent person would just scroll to your post and see your monumental
screw-up in all its glory.

Especially when kids as young as 6 or 7 are being taught to fight for a Holy War??

The bases that these kids are being taught at will at some point be blown apart.... this will obviously cause the 'Human Rights' and 'Charity Groups'
to come out and say this is all wrong... we shouldn't be killing kids but... how do you prevent these kis from being killed when they are at the
bases??

And what about their mindset afterwoods??

They will be hellbent on revenge for their families getting slaughtered!!

Do you take these kids and try to teach them differently or would it be pointless??

They would be the future Jihadists so they may continue their fathers work in the future....

So, how would we/them keep these children in line?? (The ones who survived)

As far as I can see, this will be a never-ending war unless these kids are taken away and taught differently.

The fact that people can even begin to even entertain the thought that this is a two sided issue shows just how brainwashed society has become.
Absolutely pathetic and spineless if you don't think the Palestinians have a right to go on the offensive when their land has been OCCUPIED. Their
land was STOLEN from them. What's the use of the caps anyways? Not like your mind will process it...

I really do sometimes think that Israel is the devils nation. They are exactly like the Nazi's and I'm not going to acknowledge for a
second that the Palestinians are at fault in any way like pro-Israeli nutjobs try to brainwash people into thinking by deflecting responsibility
through deception. Jews are God's chosen people? Don't make me laugh.

But when the Palestinians become strong enough to overpower the Israeli's, I just hope they don't become like them. Victims tend to unleash their
hatred through whatever avenues they can, and thus commit new atrocities that dwarf what happened to them.

Originally posted by elpistolero1
OK, the thing it's that I do not support violence from both sides, zionist or muslim, In my opinion, both religions are a threat for the rest of the
world. any theocratic country it's a threat to evolution and peace. so they must be erased from history.
Enough idiocy with fairy tales about allah or yahwe, money or whaterever your gods are-
enough idiocy like "god chosen people" and god promised land that's completely BS
enough idiocy like yihad.
enough idiocy like freedom wars orchestrated by Money worshiper countries like US, UK and the rest of the NATO gang

You make the mistake of thinking the Palestinian cause is about religion. It is not because it is about freedom and self determination. For the
zionist it is about racism.

When you dismiss both sides of this conflict as being equally guilty, you benefit the zionist and are unjust with the Palestinians.

You cannot equate the victim and the victimiser as being culpable in equal measure. By your logic, the rape victim and the rapist are equally guilty
for all their ugliness in the event; this is unjust.

Contrary to common perception, Jewish anti-Zionism is not restricted exclusively to the well known Jewish anti-Zionist movements. there are in fact
many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called "State of Israel" is that of the unadulterated
Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called "State of Israel" is illegitimate.No one has had to create
any antagonism between Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the
heresy of Zionism.

Zionism is wrong from the Torah viewpoint, not because many of its adherents are lax in practice or even anti-religious, but because its fundamental
principle conflicts with the Torah.

Unfortunately, due to many undesirable factors, the view of Torah-true Jewry has been concealed from the general public. The jew beggets a jew

Nope - however it wouldnt change the fact that we both answered your question. You just simply choose to ignore it because you can’t refute the
argument.

No you didnt...

Your reply was...

Are they a flight risk? Have they tried to run away while being transferred between detention and court? The use of leg irons is legal under the UN
when used appropriately.

That is not an answer... you have asked questions and then explained how its legal under the UN when used appropriately!

That is NOT your own thought on it so you haven’t answered my question and nor has ollncasino who didn’t even use his/her own words. Just quoted
UN rules.

Its like someone asking me "is it ok to avoid paying tax and i reply... "Well under certain condition you can legally avoid paying tax if you know
the right loop holes in the law and have a good solicitor"

That does not address the morale dilemma and question posed.

However, when i explained that you didn’t answer the question directly you replied...

The UN stated Israel committed war crimes in the 2006 war with Lebanon and it was accepted.
The UN stated Hezzbullah committed war crimes in the 2006 war with Israel and it was rejected.

What the UN thinks is not the problem - selective moral and ethical standards by both groups are though.

And what does this have to do with my question or the thread. This thread was started to address the issue of Israeli treatment of Palestinian
children. If you point is that both sides do bad things then you are just stating the obvious. If you point is to suggest that because one does bad
things it excuses the other... well that just warped logic that would leave us in a vicious circle of violence that allows us to just scream "but
they do bad things" The cycle has to be broken!

If they are in custody and its used for transpoort between 2 locations then yes I do. As I stated before, that you and others ignored, we need all the
info on the judicial system in Israel, specifically the detention side of things to make an educated detemination on their use.

Since we dont know what the minor did, since we dont know his history, since we dont know what he is charged with (as the op source doesnt contain any
of that info) we can only go on what we were given. Which is to say the article authors witnessed one minor in court, in legcuffs. Making the leap of
logic from that to all kids are in leg shackles 24 / 7 is, again, false and not supported.

That’s the closest you have come to answering...

However, the child was in court!! not being transported... not in transit. It doesn’t matter what the child did... The child is in a secure
building with armed guards. The report didnt say that the child was offering any resistance... so what’s the point in leg irons? The report never
made the leap that all kids are in leg shackles 24/7 and nor did i... that’s your own opinion on what you think i think!

First off the UN is not a legislative body.
The UN is not a democratic entity...
The UN is not a government.
The UN cannot supercede domestic laws.

Second you dont know where the minor was transported from. Was he flown in? Bused in? Railed in? Walked over from a detention facility?

To purposely ignore those questions, and then make an attempt to restrict the view in order to force an answer you want, doesn't substantiate the
claims, which is what the op article states time and again - claims.

Again you undermine your argument because of your stance on the UN, or any information, that supports your argument vs info that doesnt.

I am afraid you seemed to have missed my point...

Again I reiterate - The child is in a secure building with armed guards. Not being transported!

I am not interested in UN because the question i am asking is a morale one.

Up until 1991 it was still legal to rape your own wife... I would have found it equally frustrating if i had asked someone in 1990 "is it ok to rape
your wife?" and there reply was to quote the law!! I don’t want to know the law, i want their personal opinion...

If the person continued to quote the law and wriggled to avoid the question i would have to assume that the only reason they would not answer was
because they knew that the answer would be considered disgusting... in essence... they were to cowardly to admit their true feelings.

My point is to not discuss human rights laws and what the UN, Israelis, or Palestinians think is right or wrong... but what WE as individuals find
morally acceptable.

Its like Hezzbullah and the 2006 war and the warcrimes charge from the UN. They were all about supporting that UN decision when it took ISrael to
task. When the same group gave their verdict on Hezzbullahs actions, finding they also committed war crimes, the UN was all of a sudden bought and
paid for by the West.

When the UN concluded their investigation into the floatilla incursion, Hezzbullah was all about the UN being valid. When the UN concluded their
investigation into the HArrari assasination, Hezzbullah stated any Muslim who accepts that verdict, any person who attempts to arrest those involved,
would be labeled a traitor for working as an agent of Israel and the US and would be put to death.

You either accept all of the information or you dont. Selective arguments and ignoring words to change the meaning does not make the counter argument
valid.

I am not interested in the politics... Because all sides are wrong in my opinion... You can believe your own chosen side as much as you want but from
what I have read and seen there are thousands of claims and counter claims. Each one sounding as believable as the other... This situation will never
resolve itself while everyone is pointing fingers, entrenching their opinion, and building up hate. I am interested in forgiving, forgetting, moving
on... and addressing the plight of the civilians and children of BOTH sides. We have to stop focussing on the BS politics that give politicians power,
arms dealers money and militia groups excuses. WE have to start focussing on the plight of family’s caught in the middle... We have focussed in the
politics for years and nothing has changed... maybe its time to change the focus... and it doesn’t matter if it an Israeli kid or a Palestinian kid
who is hurt or abused... we should ALL be outraged to the point where we call for an end to this madness.

So yes, your question was answered, multiple times now, by both of us.
You, along with others, ignore it because you cannot refute the supporting information we used in our responses.

No it wasn’t, it was skirted around with the skill of a politician.

So let me leave you with this so their is no misunderstanding.

Should children be placed into legcuffs?
If the minors are not accused of a crime and are not in any type of custody then legcuffs, or any restraints for that matter, should never be used.

Agreed

If the minors are in custody for a law violation, and there are established procedures for the transport from one location to another, I support the
use of legcuffs.

Regarding the transport of a child I believe that it depends on the age/size of the child... Of course if you have a well built 15 year old who, wants
to fight everyone on a plane, then I understand it. But, to take it to the other extreme, a crying 7 year old does not need cuffs.

And this child was IN court!! The legcuffs should be removed immediately after getting off the plane. A child surrounded by armed guards, who is not
putting up resistance, does not need leg cuffs!!

My response, had someone asked me the question, would have been "NO, of course not, however..." and I would then explain about older kids and planes.
But you and ollncasino couldn’t bring yourselfs to say NO... What defines us as humans is our emotions... if you ignore these it will lead you down
a path that can only lead to the destruction of your own soul.

Why do you not understand our answers?
You are trying to take a generic, broad, unsupported claim where we dont have all of the info to place the situation into (wait for it......wait for
it.....) context and are wanting a very specific answer. It doesnt work that way and you should know better.

Actually, I think you do know better, you just dont like the answers given because you cannot refute the logic behind them.

I am reading the article from a well known and (one of the few) respected papers in Britain and discussing the claims made under the assumption that
they are true. I am supporting further investigation into these claims to ensure that children are not hurt in the manner described in the article.

I am not going to ignore and brush off the claims with a dismissive attitude. I am not going to ignore the claims because “the other side does bad
things too”. And I am not going include propaganda photos of either side and ridicule either side religious belief in a poor attempt as deflecting
from the issue as hand.

And if this article was about Jewish children, being mistreated by Palestinians, I would be just as angry and saddened by it.

Who says it's their land?
You're as bad as the fundamentalist 'zionist' supporters.
I've lived in my house with my wife for 10 years. I lived with my mum and dad in the same town in another house for nearly 30 years. 2 years before
that, I lived in a other house as a baby in another town and county.
I have no right of ownership over any land. It was there before I was born, it will be there after I die.
How can I lay claim to anything? Because I have a piece of paper in my hand that says so?!?!?
Don't you have pounds or dollar notes in your pocket that say 'I promise the pay the bearer of this sum....'?
How much value will that argument hold when TSHTF and you realise you can't cash your bits of paper in for something to eat or drink?
Tribes, hordes and invaders come and go. You can call them good, you can call them bad. You can call them terrorists, you can call them freedom
fighters. You can call them invaders, you can call them 'civilizers of the ignorant'. You can call them government, if you want.
Should I start suing the Italian government for compensation for coming over to my country, dispossesing and ravaging what my great great great (etc)
grandparents owned back in the day because the evil roman empire stole, conquered, killed, ravaged, raped sequestered and took ownership of everything
they found.
Empires, countries, provinces, states and principalities come and go. Always have always will.
You want to throw moral outrage into a variant strand of darwinianism here?
Who was there before the 'palestinians'? Who was there before the ottomans, the Romans, the Greeks, the babylonian migrants, the assyrians, the
Israelites, the Canaanites, etc......?
This horrific, inhumane behaviour is increasingly prevalent all over the world. Some have done it much, much longer than others. Some continue to
pursue behaviour that would defy our understanding.
It's endemic. That's the brutal, nasty, selfish unloving side of human nature that we don't like to dwell on too much.
But when we try to put it on a pedestal and label it 'Jew' or 'Zionism' or 'Israel', as if it is the epitomy and standard and cause of all
things evil in this world.....

The Above Top Secret Web site is a wholly owned social content community of The Above Network, LLC.

This content community relies on user-generated content from our member contributors. The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides a collaborative venue for free expression.