What is VRA?

What is VRA?

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Posts: 61

Mar 6 08 10:00 PM

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Does anyone know what VRA is? My boss was telling me, cause he is retired military, that he was hired as a GS-7 and he used something called VRA and he bid
for an opening GS-11 spot and was awarded it. He says its something along the lines of I can bid for a job, currently a GS-5, that is in my career field that
is of higher pay and I can obtain the job without them having to readvertise the job or I get first bid on the job cause of my veteran status or something like
that. He speaks very choppy so it was hard for me to gather any information from him about this...but if anyone knows what it is can you please tell
me...please!

Landon Veitch
USAF (Seperated - 27 Aug 07)
20% Disability (Lumbago)

"I was that, which others cared not to be. I went where others feared to go and did what others failed to do. I ask nothing from those who gave nothing,
and reluctantly, and accepted the thought of eternal lonliness...should I fail. I have seen the face of terror, felt the chill of fear, warmed to the touch of
love. I have hoped, pained, cried. But foremost, lived in times others would say, best forgotten. At the very least, in later days, I will be able to say
with the greatest pride, that I was indeed a soldier."...Author Unknown

The VRA is a special authority by which agencies can, if they wish, appoint eligible veterans without competition to positions at any grade level through
General Schedule (GS) 11 or equivalent. (The promotion potential of the position is not a factor.) VRA appointees are hired under excepted appointments to
positions that are otherwise in the competitive service. There is no limitation to the number of VRA appointments an individual may receive, provided the
individual is otherwise eligible.

If the agency has more than one VRA candidate for the same job and one (or more) is a preference eligible, the agency must apply the Veterans'
preference procedures prescribed in 5 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 302 in making VRA appointments. A veteran who is eligible for a VRA appointment
is not automatically eligible for Veterans' preference.

After two years of satisfactory service, the agency must convert the veteran to career or career-conditional appointment, as appropriate.

Eligibility Criteria:

The Jobs for Veterans Act, Public Law 107-288, amended title 38 U.S.C. 4214 by making a major change in the eligibility criteria for obtaining a
Veterans Recruitment Appointment (VRA). Those who are eligible:

Disabled veterans; or

Veterans who served on active duty in the Armed Forces during a war, or in a campaign or expedition for which a campaign badge has been authorized;
or

Veterans who, while serving on active duty in the Armed Forces, participated in a United States military operation for which an Armed Forces Service
Medal was awarded; or

Recently separated veterans.

Veterans claiming eligibility on the basis of service in a campaign or expedition for which a medal was awarded must be in receipt of the campaign badge
or medal.

In addition to meeting the criteria above, eligible veterans must have been separated under honorable conditions (i.e., the individual must have
received either an honorable or general discharge).

Note: Under the eligibility criteria, not all 5-point preference eligible veterans may be eligible for a VRA appointment. For example,
a veteran who served during the Vietnam era (i.e., for more than 180 consecutive days, after January 31, 1955, and before October 15, 1976) but did not
receive a service-connected disability or an Armed Forces Service medal or campaign or expeditionary medal would be entitled to 5 pt. veterans'
preference. This veteran, however, would not be eligible for a VRA appointment under the above criteria.

As another example, a veteran who served during the Gulf War from August 2, 1990, through January 2, 1992, would be eligible for veterans'
preference solely on the basis of that service. However, service during that time period, in and of itself, does not confer VRA eligibility on the veteran
unless one of the above VRA eligibility criteria is met.

Lastly, if an agency has 2 or more VRA candidates and 1 or more is a preference eligible, the agency must apply Veterans' preference. For example,
one applicant is VRA eligible on the basis of receiving an Armed Forces Service Medal (this medal does not confer veterans' preference eligibility).
The second applicant is VRA eligible on the basis of being a disabled veteran (which does confer veterans' preference eligibility). In this example,
both individuals are VRA eligible but only one of them is eligible for Veterans' preference. As a result, agencies must apply the procedures of 5 CFR
302 when considering VRA candidates for appointment.

Making Appointments

Ordinarily, an agency may simply appoint any VRA eligible who meets the basic qualifications requirements for the position to be filled without having
to announce the job or rate and rank applicants. However, as noted, Veterans' preference applies in making appointments under the VRA authority. This
means that if an agency has 2 or more VRA candidates and 1 or more is a preference eligible, the agency must apply Veterans' preference. Furthermore,
an agency must consider all VRA candidates on file who are qualified for the position and could reasonably expect to be considered for the opportunity; it
cannot place VRA candidates in separate groups or consider them as separate sources in order to avoid applying preference or to reach a favored
candidate.

Terms and Conditions of Employment

A VRA appointee may be promoted, demoted, reassigned, or transferred in the same way as a career employee. As with other competitive service employees,
the time in grade requirement applies to the promotion of VRAs. If a VRA-eligible employee is qualified for a higher grade, an agency may, at its
discretion, give the employee a new VRA appointment at a higher grade up through GS-11 (or equivalent) without regard to time-in-grade.

Agencies must establish a training or education program for any VRA appointee who has less than 15 years of education. This program should meet the
needs of both the agency and the employee.

Appeal Rights

During their first year of employment, VRA appointees have the same limited appeal rights as competitive service probationers, but otherwise they have
the appeal rights of excepted service employees. This means that VRA employees who are preference eligibles have adverse action protections after one year
(see Chapter 7). VRA's who are not preference eligibles do not get this protection until they have completed 2 years of current continuous employment
in the same or similar position.

Nonpermanent Appointment Based on VRA Eligibility

Agencies may make a noncompetitive temporary or term appointment based on an individual's eligibility for VRA appointment. The temporary or term
appointment must be at the grades authorized for VRA appointment but is not a VRA appointment itself and does not lead to conversion to
career-conditional.

Regards; SteamJockey, resident curmudgeon 50 years service to the Navy and the nation.

SteamJockey is completely correct and on the point. The only thing that he didn't include is that most positions or openings with the Federal Government
and all it's agencies are for the most of the time announcements that are made due to the obligation of law for them to post the position. Most of the
time they already have an internal applicant in mind when they write the KSA's that fits them exactly and therefore the best candidate for the position.
What they then do is hire from within and your and mine veterans preference doesn't mean chicken @**+. When I could work I applied for many positions that
I was very thoroughly qualified for but the position went to someone else. After getting out of the military I went to school under the Voc Rehab program and
got my B.S. in Justice and Public Safety/ Criminal Justice with concentrations in "Security Administration," and "Paralegal Studies."
After that I got my Masters in Management with concentrations in Health-care Administration and Human Resources Management. In the mean time I received
training from three different companies that I worked for as a Director of Environmental Services at three different hospitals. I completely ran the
housekeeping department at all three hospitals, was a Department Head / Part of the Executive, Administration of the hospital. I applied for three different
Housekeeping Officer positions with the VA Hospital System and was turned down all three times due to them already having an internal candidate that they were
basically tailoring the position for. To say that I was pissed is an understatement but the Federal Gov't system is just like everything else in the
world, it's a good 'ole boy / buddy buddy system where friends and family get a job but you don't.

"The Rough Rider"... "Far Better It Is To Dare Mighty Things..... Than
To Take Rank With Those Poor Timid Spirits Who Know Neither Victory Or
Defeat." Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Of the millions of Federal workers employed today, all were once outsiders and managed to obtain Federal employment none the less. I don't know any that
inherited the job. All competed on the same field. I work for DoD. A large percentage of my co-workers are veterans despite the fact that less than 8% of
today's population are vets. The poll right here on VBN shows 20% of those responding are Federal employees. Looks to me like a lot of us are getting
employed in Federal positions.

Regards; SteamJockey, resident curmudgeon 50 years service to the Navy and the nation.

That's fairly common in most Federal agencies. With limited exception, upper level jobs are filled via Merit Promotion. Folks all moving up
leaves openings for entry level positions. All too many folks expect to start out at the top. That's a shame because it seldom works out that way whether
it's a Federal job or one in the private sector. The smart money is on taking any job, even a GS-3 clerk just to get your foot in the door. Work your way
up via Merit Promotion.

Regards; SteamJockey, resident curmudgeon 50 years service to the Navy and the nation.

The smart money is on taking any job, even a GS-3 clerk just to get your foot in the door

I agree with Steam Jockey. This was definitely true in my case. I knew several senior NCOs in my last years in the Army who, when prepping for retirement, told
me ' If it's not a GS-12 or above, I'm not even applying', or ' I've got too much education to accept such a low paying position',
or words to that effect.

I accepted a temp GS-9 position, that no one was applying for, and did that job for a year. When my boss said jump, I said 'How high', when she said
'Shxx' I said 'How much and what color. I volunteered for overtime, schools, anything. OK, I was a 'suck up' but it worked for me.

After a year, a permanent position opened, I applied, and got selected. So yes, at that time I was an 'insider', but when I took that temp position, I
guarantee, no one in the organization knew me personally.

I've been doing this job for 5 years now, and am happy with how it turned out.

Don't give up...if you want to get into civil service you can, it is just a slooooooooooooow process with alot of
"No's" before you "win". Sound familiar?

When the military has an opening for a Lt Col or E-8 does it hire a civilian off the street? Nope. Folks work their way up the system. Same thing for the
most part in Civil Service. I came in as a GS-5 and over the years worked my way up to a GS-12.

Came in early and work late; took on the extra project. Same thing you do in the military or the private sector if you have any ambition. The Vet preference
got me in as a GS-5 position. After that it was up to me.

Now every Fed Agency has (well at least DoD does) has a person who in most cases, as an extra duty, is suppose to advocate for disabled applicants. Some are
good and some, well just have the title. Sound familiar....like VSO's.

Okay here is the trick. You have to do your home work...same as your claim. Find out who that person is with each agency you
want to work for. Now you start your "good ole boy network". That is how the world turns. It is
called networking.

If you are near a large Fed opeation they might have someone locally. Small operations, will have somebody back at the Regional Office.

Call them and try to set up an appointment if they are in the local area. Comb your hair, put on some clean underware and go see them.

IMPORTANT PART...your goal is not for them to get you a job! Don't be pushy. This is an
informational interview (google it). You want to learn about the agency. What is their mission, challenges.

What are the entry level opportunites based on your experience that you might qualify for? How often do they anticipate openings? What
advice might they give you (people love to give advice).

You want to make a GREAT impression. Do the follow up thank letter, etc. Remember they are in the system. Hopefully they are willing to
advocate for you inside the system. Yup, they can walk down the hall and talk to someone on your behalf.

It won't happen over night...dang, this is sounding way to familiar, but you can get there. Hang it there and keep charging!

I agree. I saw one of the guys who told me he had too much education to accept a job at less than GS-11 a couple of years after he retired. He was driving a
forklift at an AAFES warehouse, when I went to pick up a new refrigerator I bought. I didn't mention the conversation, and he didn't either.

The Vet preference can get your foot in the door; then your ambition, hard work, and military work ethic help you move up.

The federal government recruits for positions thru vacancy announcements or internal agency detailed assignments. The announcements must be published - but in
some instances all that is required is the vacancy announcement to be posted at the personnel office. If the agency desires, they can use 'internal'
announcements and select from w/in. External announcments are open to all those who are listed in the announcement as eligible for consideration. In
competative service the fed gives veterans preference. In excepted service, the fed is required to try give but not required to give vet preference (the
excepted service regards vet preference as a "positive selection factor". Other limitations can be as simple as the opening is limited to people
currently w/in the commuting area (so they agency doesn't have to fund relocation costs), or to those w/ certain status (military dependents, people w/
work visas for that country) those with a license (i.e. nurse), etc.

The system is supposed to be based upon merit. Unfortunately, some do not do that. If you have applied for a position and included proof of a VA disability,
there are federal investigators that will accept your complaint and investigate if you were discriminated against, either for being a vet or even for being
disabled.

The below site contains a pretty good summary of the vet hiring rules. Note how Veterans preference brings you up the selection list, and if you are a 10
point CPS vet (That is a civil service classification based upon the Vet being rated by the VA at 30% or more disabled and in receipt of Va compensation) then
if the selecting agency wants to hire a non-vet they can only hire a non-vet into the position after getting OPM approval. If you are 10 points CPS (that is
rated by the VA at 30% or higher), the federal govt doesn't guarantee YOU the job, but if you qualify and make the list then the agency is limitated to
selecting A vet for the job - unless they want to justify their selection of a non-vet to OPM

Over the years in the military I saw several civil service selections that were not based upon merit. Post 9-11 I spent time w/ DoD as a civilian employee and
sadly, such practices still exist. DoD should be the first to hire wounded warriors.

There are plent of other federal agencies that abide by the intent of the law requiring veterans preference and will include in their announcements that they
will use the VRA.

I agree with all that has been said above, keep trying and get your foot in the door w/ whatever you can find. Keep you nose clean, your boots shined, call
people "sir" and "ma'am" and show up on time. You can do a mediocre job and still excel in civil service.

Did you know that if your medically discharged under the 30% from the military (not retired), you only get the 5 point pref when applying and taking the
federal exams (law enforcement).

Reason: Your not disabled until the VA says your disabled. My claim took a year (Iraq Vet), during that time I took two police entrance exams and wasn't
able to claim the 10 points (didn't have the VA rating letter). Although, I hear there is some letter the VA writes to concur w/your military seperation
rating during the VA rating process. I wasn't able to get my hands on one.

I worked for the Feds (Dept of Army) for the last year at the GS-9 level. They are for the vets, just hard as hell to get in.

When I was being kicked out I started my application process on the CPOL website, applied for 362 jobs, was refered to 6 and called by two. The first one I was
selected for was as an instructor for DA at the GS-11 level. Went to the admin (CPOC), to do the paperwork, didn't have my VA information (claim still
pending) and made the mistake of claiming the 10 point pref based on my discharge rating from the military. End result, I was dropped based on fraudulent Vet
pref claim. Went back and forth with them for around a month, ran out of money and just took the GS-9 position in another state. The points for vets pref for
DA jobs from my understanding only help w/ higher leave hours given etc. Not so much who is higher in the application chain.

I agree with starting at the bottom, done it in the military but, a common thing you find out in the GS system is numerous retired military.
In my case, a loss of 16 years without retirement makes very hard to survive at the GS 5 level. If I had that retirement to offset the GS-5 pay and the
medical, it would be easy to work my way up. Does being booted out w/ a disability in a manner of months make you deserve pref to the higher positions? Not at
all, but should be a consideration if your fully qualified.

No disagreement with the points you made. One comment though, is that as retired mil, I basically started over in the GS system; for example, I got 4 hours
leave per pay period starting off.

I have a friend who was discharged from the Air Force with 16 years in. He started as a GS with 16 years equivalent credit. For example, he got 8 hours leave
per pay period. After 4 years as a GS, he gets a 20 year certificate of service. There are other differences also, but this is what readily comes to my mind,
because I really noticed the difference.

But, he doesn't get retired pay like myself. So, there is some benefit to getting into the GS system as a non-retiree, although I agree, I like having the
retirement backup.

I to received more leave from my service credit, not to sure on the 20 year letter. I was told I would have to buy back my 16 years of service for credit for
retirement. Could not afford that at all. So the end result was starting back at zero and get $117 a month from the VA (due to severance pay). That is where my
16 years went...

As you stated, there is benifits to getting into the GS system. Not many places that you can do 20 years and retire. I know numerous people who retired from
the military, then did 20 years in the GS system, retired and came back as a contractor doing the same thing. It has it benefits. Don't see that happening
at Taco Bell....

No disagreement with the points you made. One comment though, is that as retired mil, I basically started over in the GS system; for example, I got 4 hours
leave per pay period starting off.

Spec9,
Agree 100%. However, as a retiree they still give you credit for your combat time. In my case I went to CPO. CPO had me fill out a form that went to
St. Louis (National Archives) where they certified combat time. It came back about 8 months later.

Once CPO has certs on your combat time, they adjust your entry date and credit it to you. It's good for RIF purposes, bumping rights and importantly
for leave computation. The period I had been credited w/ 4 hrs annual leave were adjusted (in my case to 6 hrs annual leave per pay period) and I got 6 hrs
per pay period from then on. Not only that, they added the "lost" hours back in and bumped my accumulated leave.

You are right, they don't credit your 20 years a/d, but any of that time which was in combat - they will give you if you apply.

However, as a retiree they still give you credit for your combat time.

One thing it doesn't count for is retirement. I'm about to retire after 20 years military and 28 years civil service. Been working with
HRO on a test retirement application. Been talking with a NAVSEA contractor for potential employment. That might work out for me if I don't have to work
full time. Don't want to do that again.

Regards; SteamJockey, resident curmudgeon 50 years service to the Navy and the nation.

As Theorist80 original asked " about VRA" it is very strange sytem when it comes to hiring. I've read the OPM hiring book in ref to VRA and VEOA
and the 5 or 10 point preference guidance. My old boss in the GS system talked with me on her advertisment for the GS job I took. She stuck to the Vet issue
when she made the selection, "not saying I wasn't the best qualified".
She also stated that she put filters out so the resumix system would pick up those key areas she was looking for (helps keep the referal list down).

With that said, she said if she had an ideal person she wanted to hire, it would be easy to disclose those key elements in order to insure the prospected
person would be refered via the resumix. Although she didn't do that, she said it because she thought that wasn't fair.

Gets confusing from there, the OPM guidance breaks the referal list down based on the hireing criteria (i.e. current federal employee, veoa, vra, etc). once
this list is compiled and complies with the VRA / VEOA etc as far a listing the referals. It will boil down to the higher official to pick the most qualified,
that is where the oversight of OPM hasn't been that great. Look on google and you can run across articles in ref to OPM oversight.

I received a notice from CPOL stating that "I was bumped by a person with higher rights to employment" on a job I was refered to. Strange thing, my
buddy was the one hired, and that is the truth. He just completed his 180 day wait for federal employment after military retirement. I was a Veteran w/10pt
(compensable Less than 30%) and he being a retiree, gave him the standard 5 point preference. Who had the higher rights if both were refered?

That is where the gray area is and isn't really monitored: "As a person entitled to 10-point preference, you may file an application at any time for
most Army positions." "However, the Army examines for positions under its delegated examining authority by publicly announcing positions on a
case-by-case basis. For this reason, it is to your advantage." Straight from the OPM guidance

Veterans w/ 10 pt (Disability Compensable)

Veterans w/ 10 pt (Compensable Less than 30%)

Veterans w/ 10 pt (Compensable 30% or More)

Strange system, but I would encourage any vet to seek employment with Federal Govt. They are good to vets, although it can be the
buddy system. The rules are there to keep that from being common practice, just not enough oversight

Thanks for all the input everyone. I can see from reading that the VRA process has numerous catch 22's that I need to be aware of. I've already got the
GS-5 position currrently and my boss agrees that I accepted a job that is below my suggested pay range but he couldnt hire me any higher on the GS scale as of
right now. But my supervisor ir moving and this opens his GS-11 position and he was telling me that if I want it and he would love for me to stay that I could
take the job so Im anxious to see if/and/or when this happens.

Myself...I was out of the AF for 6 months before I was given the job. I am VA rated 20% disabled and got the 10 pt preference. My boss was telling me that what
they wanted to do was to use VRA and promote me into the GS-11 position and then readvertise my positon (the GS-5 position) and get someone new in my position
once accept the new position. Is that illegal or is there more to the process that he is not telling me?

Landon Veitch
USAF (Seperated - 27 Aug 07)
20% Disability (Lumbago)

"I was that, which others cared not to be. I went where others feared to go and did what others failed to do. I ask nothing from those who gave nothing,
and reluctantly, and accepted the thought of eternal lonliness...should I fail. I have seen the face of terror, felt the chill of fear, warmed to the touch of
love. I have hoped, pained, cried. But foremost, lived in times others would say, best forgotten. At the very least, in later days, I will be able to say
with the greatest pride, that I was indeed a soldier."...Author Unknown

good stuff...I was hoping he was looking out for me since he is retired AF.

Landon Veitch
USAF (Seperated - 27 Aug 07)
20% Disability (Lumbago)

"I was that, which others cared not to be. I went where others feared to go and did what others failed to do. I ask nothing from those who gave nothing,
and reluctantly, and accepted the thought of eternal lonliness...should I fail. I have seen the face of terror, felt the chill of fear, warmed to the touch of
love. I have hoped, pained, cried. But foremost, lived in times others would say, best forgotten. At the very least, in later days, I will be able to say
with the greatest pride, that I was indeed a soldier."...Author Unknown

1)Buying back 16 years mililtary time: Remember you are just paying 3% of
your military wages that were subject to Social Security. Interest starts after you have worked for the Feds for a couple of years. You can make
monthly payments from your pay check. Add 16 years for retirement purposes to a monthly retirement check is something you really need to
consider. Grab your social security statement and do the ruff calculation or you can order one from the Social Security Web Site

Did a quick calculation with the following assumition:High three salary average is $50,000 (GS-9 Step 5 RUS), 20 years
acutal working time with the Feds +16 years military time purchased and FERS retirement system.

With the 16 years added (total 36 years for retirement purposes) you bring in almost an additional$670 a month. That is $8,040 more a year.
In ten years that is$80,400more in retirement pay.

Only you can do the math to see if the pay back is worth the cost.

2) Promotion: The purpose of the VRA is to get you in the system which you are. I am not an expert, but I don't think
you can use it for a promotion. Normally promotion from a GS-5 to a GS-11 doesn't happen. It can IF you are qualifed at the GS-11 level.
Don't assume you are.

Check with your personnel office on both of these items.

Years ago a promotion came up and everybody knew, including me, that the boss was going to promote employee A. She deserved it. Trouble was
when the list of names came out she wasn't on it. Her application did not reflect all the experience she had and therefore she
didn't qualify. Employee B, that would be me, qualified and was promoted.