CHL Talk 2

Texas has a fairly easy CHL policy, and I am looking at possibly getting mine this year.

On the one hand, having a gun is very handy, should you need it. Many of our friends have theirs, and a couple have been in situations where they were glad to have it.

On the other, being able to fight on the spot without one is a lot, A LOT, less messy legally, and quicker. You can argue this if you like, but many of our friends are well-trained martial artists of some acclaim – not to mention that Mel is a double black in TKD with state trophies in competition. The stories I could tell, hehehe.

This comic references a real life situation a friend, who shall remain nameless unless she wants the attention, lived through. Got a flat tire on Highway 45 out in the middle of nowhere. While she was changing her tire, a dude pulled up behind her, got out of his car, offered help. Then, when she told him she was fine, the tire was almost all the way changed already, he tried to mug her. She beat nine shades of hell out of him, left him unconscious on the side of the road, finished tightening her lugs, then drove off. According to her telling, it wouldn’t matter if he had a gun – dude made his play when he was within striking distance. So she decided to Be Like Han Solo, and cracked him across the face with the iron. Then kept cracking.

I’m not arguing that CHL is worthless – on the contrary, as noted above, I’m likely getting mine this year. But I have many friends who choose not to, and I understand their perspective. Hell, I’ve waited this long because I’m no slouch in a fight. I’ve been in some bad situations – but nothing yet that my fists or boots couldn’t get me out of.

With this legal bruhaha over Zimmerman’s legitimate shoot(being beaten and all) I can’t blame you. I mean if some overly zealous person happens to claim you shot a poor innocent unarmed kid(who just happened to be beating your head in), you may find yourself in a lengthy legal battle costing thousands. If Zimmerman instead beat the tar out of the kid attacking him instead, the little wannabe thug could be back to being a little punk kid… Of course, Zimmerman might have been up on charges of “Assaulting a minor” but at least it wouldn’t have gotten national attention.

I never have to worry about the safety on my hands or feet. There is never an ammo shortage, and I don’t have to worry about my kid finding my fist and killing himself, me, or one of his friends.
I got rid of my gun when my son was born. The odds of needing handgun are much much smaller than the odds of an accident when kids are in the mix.
That does not mean I judge those who make other decisions. It just means that this is the decision I made for myself and my family. I have been robbed at gunpoint twice. Both times I was in a situation where law and/or employer policy prohibited me from carrying even if I had a CHL. Neither time was anyone hurt. One set of robbers was caught. the other was not.

My personal policy is to never try to mug anyone with blue hair. FIFY. I carry and hope that it ultimately proves pointless to do so. I don’t go looking for trouble, in fact I go out of my way to avoid it. I’m not interested in a fair fight. I’m not interested in any fight at all. There are many many confrontations that go unreported simply because the would-be attacker is dissuaded by the production of a gun by his intended prey. Failing that, if the riffraff knew that a substantial chunk of the population was armed, they might be likely to seek more peaceful hobbies and careers.

The idea of fighting is great if you’re trained, but if you’re simply outclassed and you know it, I’d prefer to have SOME sort of weapon on me. Gun, 2″x4″, 10″ pipe wrench, whatever floats your boat. I got my CCL because it was easy and it made me more comfortable with transporting my weapons (completely legal in TX, but some cops are jerks, anyway, and this is from someone who works with cops.)

I got my CCW endorsement after a county detective advised me to do so. They were investigating my wife at the time (yeah…divorced her FAST) and her boyfriend for conspiracy to commit murder. She had a $100,000 life insurance policy on me and the detectives saw that as potential motive. He told me to get a gun and have a gun on me at all times and suggested I get my CCW to protect myself and my family.

As Evyl Robot Michael said, I’m not looking for a fight. I’m not worried about the ex-wife anymore, she has nothing to gain by harming me. I have had two instances where simply reaching back and placing my hand on my weapon forced the other parties to back away and seek other potential targets.

My family and I are also taking a martial arts class together. It’s great fun for the whole family. One of the other students asked why I would want to carry a gun if I’m learning to fight. I told him I don’t want to fight, but should I have to, I would. I carry the gun to keep someone from getting close enough to harm me. If they are close enough to harm me, I will defend myself with hands, knees, elbows and feet in order to get far enough away to draw my weapon and end the threat, hopefully by just showing the weapon.

I don’t want trouble. I don’t want to shoot someone. I don’t want to ever have to even DRAW my weapon. However, as has been said, I’d rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

I have black belts in 2 asian martial arts, and I’ve achieved the highest level of fighting award in a western martial art. I know how to fight. I carry a gun, too. It’s nice to have a number of tools at one’s disposal. And I’m not getting any younger… So the adage goes, I’m too young to die and too old to take an ass kicking. I may be reasonably tough, but it’s hard to outfight a bunch of people. It’s hard to outfight a gun as well. But like Alex’s situation above, how’d the dude “roll up on her and try to grab her purse” while she was changing a flat? Situational awareness….did she let him get that close? What the hell for? And why was her purse out of the car while she was changing a flat? Weird.

I finally got mine since I was tired of the clerks down at my friendly neighborhood assault weapons dealer giving me grief for making them phone in purchases. (Since having a CCW exempts you from Brady checks…)

Here’s the thing about concealed carry: most (not all, not by a long shot, but most) of the people who want to do it want to for the wrong reasons, and are the last people who should be allowed to. They’re the armchair Rambos who have this grand visions of being The Big Hero when somebody tries to rob the bank while they’re standing in line, or some other similar circumstance, drawing their weapon and taking out the bad guy while the huddled masses cheer. What usually ends up being the reality is that the nitwit with the CCL gets too pumped up and shaky from adrenaline, fumbles the gun trying to clear the holster, and either ends up getting himself killed (along with any other innocent bystanders that are too close), or worse, jitters his weapon all over hell and ends up taking out a couple of patrons himself before he gets killed by the thug. Either way, he sort of gets his wish, he ends up on the news for drawing his weapon in a dangerous situation. It just ends up being posthumous.

Now, should people who’ve been properly trained to handle a firearm, particularly in a life-or-death scenario, and who would have cause to need one on them at all times, be allowed to carry concealed? Absolutely. Should Joe Six pack be allowed to be the root cause of news stories that include the phrase “innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire” simply because he has delusions of adequacy grandeur? Oh hay-ell naw.

You fabricate a scenario and throw around words like “most” and “reality” to dismiss the wild dreams of the concealed carry community, which you also made up. Stop surfing the Huffington Post and go out and talk to some real people who carry real guns in their everyday real lives.

RIGHTS are not meted out in doses to proven and deserving subjects, they belong naturally to all, equally and by default. And this particular one “Shall Not Be Infringed”

If, and or when, when this happened, it would be national news. I haven’t heard of it, though I hear at least weekly of armed civilians using firearms in righteous situations that save lives. Please provide sources or kindly GTFO.

Number One: What state do you know of that You can legally conceal Carry into a Bank? None. Number Two: Being a firearms instructor I have seen Very few of the “Armchair Rambo”‘s That you speak of. What I have seen in a Vast majority (Probably 70 to 80% of the people Ive taught) Have been Women, Elderly and young alike. Looking to defend themselves or protect their children. And the few “AR’s” we’ll call them, That I have seen, they are easy to pick out, and any Firearms instructor worth his certifications would not let that kind of person pass without setting out to change his mind set. what you have said here At first, Really upset me. But After typing this, and Reading the comments of others All I can say Is go to your local range, go to a Bank, A Gun club. Talk to people around you who conceal Carry. Or better yet, Grow a pair (Though with a Name Dr. Tranny Im sure you have one already) And Get a Concealed permit yourself Be the sensible person with the firearm, instead of the victim. Unless you live in Illinois, Then you are f*cked.

I’ve been attacked by lunatics far more often than is my share. I don’t understand it, can’t explain it – I just attract crazy for some reason. That said, I’ve had to defend myself with lit cigarettes, gas station window squeegees, a garden hose, a car door (more than once) and a bandsaw blade (don’t ask), among other things.

I never bothered thinking about concealed carry until a relative started threatening my life. Plus I’m too old to be swinging window squeegees at peoples’ eyes anymore. I feel like echoing the look on Harrison Ford’s face in the first Indiana Jones movie, when he faced off against the swordsman. “Oh, please. I’m too sick to fight you. Just … drop dead or something.”

I have had mine for close to 14 years now, once I was glad I had it but was able to talk the guy down and get him to leave. I carried some then but not that often. Now that I have a 3 year old, protecting him is my utmost concern, and running away or trying to fight back while guarding a 3 year old is nigh impossible. I now carry almost everywhere I legally can, and grit my teeth at some of the places I can’t. Protecting him, and making sure I protect myself so I always come home to him is my greatest concern. yes at 6’3″ and 290 I can pack a punch and probably do well one on one. but take that to 3 on 1, and having my son with me. I want to end the confrontation as soon as possible.

I don’t carry, but I always maintain my CHL because it’s really, really handy. Going to the range, I don’t have to remember which of the myriad of city and county laws require me to keep my ammo and gun separate, in the trunk, wrapped in bubble wrap or whatever. We also have a long gun exemption here, where CHL holders are able to open carry and everyone else is not. Taking public transit home from a gun show is easier with a CHL.

It’s a weird thing, but that’s the way it is. CHL means not having to figure out and comply with nitpicky local laws.

Carry daily, everywhere. Few if any places I can’t (courthouse and jail, that’s about it. And no, I’m not a cop). There was a time I could fight, but I won’t. Under any circumstances. I will not get into a fistfight, or any other physical fight, with anyone. Too much is out of my control, too much can go wrong. I will retreat, withdraw, apologize, get out of your way, etc. I have no problem dialing down an ego to avoid an unnecessary confrontation.

I will not be taken or confined by a bad guy, nor will I permit same for my family. At that point, and if I have to (note above), I will shoot you. I hope very much I don’t have to shoot you, and I will go out of my way to avoid it (I’m old; I don’t generally go to places that have any serious chance of real danger). But if I have to, I will shoot you.

I highly recommend both options. While doing JKD has taught me that it’s fairly easy to kill someone with your hands (not by beating them to death, but if I put you into a guillotine and don’t let go within 15-30 seconds I’ve probably caused brain asphyxia), a gun is a lot faster at stopping a threat than my hands, feet, or other parts of my body. Not to mention if the attacker has a gun or knife, there’s no need to get into range of that. Stay out of it and stop them immediately.

Even if you never expect to have to draw or fire your carry gun, there’s absolutely no reason not to obtain your CHL. As far as *needing* to carry: if you’re physically fit, highly trained, and able to lay out a surprise attacker with one punch, good for you. Most people are not ninja and need some mechanical assistance, and the attitude of those who sneer at the thought of the weak (you do know that 80-year-old women get raped, right?) defending themselves with a gun is no different from those L-word douchebags who think Survival Of The Fittest is a dandy political philosophy.

Hand-to-hand may be an option when it’s one-on-one, but what about two or three against one? Predators often run in packs. What if the predator has a tire iron or a shiv? Would you still want to close the distance to land a punch or turn your back to an opponent to run away? A firearm doesn’t solve all problems but it does expand one’s options. It also complicates things in that, when you carry a gun, there is a gun is present should a fight occur.

My dos centavos: I’ve heard a couple of stories of MA instructors getting jumped by badguys with guns, and coming out on the losing end of that equation, so do what you think is better. That said, it’s a lot easier to pull a trigger, than to go all Jackie Chan on somedood, in defense of yourself or others.

From having been in martial arts for most of my life, I’d say that I’d want a gun. Because you’re not always going to be fighting one on one with only their fists as a weapon for your opponent. If they have a knife and you go hand to hand, there’s a good chance that you WILL be cut. I’d rather not have that happen, and if my attacker had a gun, I’m fucked proper. So having a firearm in your toolbelt for dealing with people is just a good thing to have.

I have some martial arts training. Enough to keep myself out of trouble and break off an encounter. My problem is, I’ve got Psoriatic Arthritis. Since this limits strength in my hands, affects my balance, and limits mobility in feet/knees/hands, my limited martial arts training isn’t going to do me much good. The LC9 on my hip, however, can balance those infirmities out some. Do I ever plan on using it? I pray daily that I never need to, but I still strap it on when leaving the house.

I work in Maryland but live in Virginia, so I rarely carry when I leave the house. Essentially it only happens when I’m hiking or camping. Or diving to the range. Not very high risk of The Crazy(tm) attacking at Trader Joes and Wegmans.

I´m of the opinion that it´s always good to have options. Sometimes drawing a gun might be overkill, or just not feasible, that is when options is good. Self defense spray, taser, knife, solid boots, roll of coins, you name it. Having some training/experience in brawling is always a usefull skill, and unlike a firearm it can´t be taken away or jam. My suggestion would be for at least some limited Craw Maga training. That stuff is fast, hard hitting and just plain works.

I’d say Alex and Mick are both right and both wrong, in this crazy country you can beat someone up and possibly be charged as attempted murder or murder if they die after the fight just as you could with a sidearm. “Stand your Ground” was created to help protect the natural right of self defense because of zealot prosecutors/DA’s who don’t always care about being right, just about having convictions to help them politically. The whole Zimmerman trial issue shows how your training and lack of training can be used against you in both criminal court, civil court (coming soon), and the court of public opinion. So if your a triple black belt with years of fight experience who doesn’t stop (or appear to stop) when the threat has been eliminated and instead “murder” your attacker with your fists, you could be facing the same criminal circus as Zimmerman faced with a gun.

Realistically we should all look at fists/boots and a gun or other weapon is just a tool that may or may not be the best use at that particular time and place. Limiting yourself in training and tool selections makes life very interesting and dangerous when you are in a defensive situation, and I would much rather have life be less interesting and a lot more safe by having the right tool for the job when needed.

Hands and feet are not going to do the average person who doesn’t train daily for years in a self defense form any good when faced with a group, gun, or knife, and even with years of training and practice it is a gamble to take on an armed opponent with bare hands. Yes you could in theory close the distance and destroy your attacker even if they were armed, however why risk getting to close enough to be in physical striking range when you can fight them off or warn them off before physically while retreating away with a pistol?

Similarly a gun in untrained hands (meaning you practice regularly) is not always the answer when faced with armed and determined opponent. It isn’t always the answer no matter how fast you can draw, aim, and fire. Maybe you were in la-la land with no situational awareness (it happens, even to the best of us) or maybe you just were unlucky that day and the perp got the drop on you as you rounded a corner. But just about any average person can cover 21 feet in under 2 seconds, and since the average draw is 2 or more seconds from a concealed carry position you better know at least some rudimentary hand-to-hand self defense. At the minimum you should know some basic strikes and ways to get out of various holds so that you can hopefully strike and retreat from the threat while pulling your sidearm.

The whole goal as a CCW carrier or a victim of a criminal attack is to end the violence or stop the threat as quickly as possible before they are seriously injured. Sometimes just having that physical presence of situational awareness is enough to make attackers back off, sometimes it may take the sight of you reaching for a sidearm or squaring off with them in a fighting stance, sometimes it takes the sight of your weapon, sometime nothing short of you pulling the trigger and causing enough grievous bodily damage will stop an attacker. If it comes to the latter I would much rather be able to do that with the press of a trigger and a well placed shot, than to try and get multiple hits to someone with my fists and feet while avoiding blows myself. And I adopted this preference before I was injured in Iraq with TBI and multiple spinal injuries making an opponents blows more likely to seriously and permanently harm or kill me than my will be.

That is why I carry even though I’ve had some hand to hand training over the years and could possibly fight off an attacker by hand…….

Short version:
Very few will doubt the efficacy of a gun when pointed at them. Doesn’t matter who’s pointing it at you or the size of the gun or the caliber. It’s THE universal deterrent . Everybody in the world gets it’s meaning. Stand off distance measured in many yards is a wonderful thing.

Martial arts don’t deter anything. It MIGHT be effective AFTER it’s used. You stand a fair risk of being maimed permanently in it’s use whether is attacker is bare fisted or non firearm armed.

If your friends or acquaintances dispute this surprise them by pepper spraying them with the entire contents of the bottle and then cold cock them or kick them in the junk. It’s dirty and not fair, but would drive the point home.

You cannot control the terms in which you are FORCED to fight unless it’s a tournament. You can choose which tools to keep with you that provide you with more options to keep yourself safe.

Then there are those for whom fighting is simply not an option, like my wife who is usually toting around two small kids. If she were accosted a gun is about the only thing she could possibly use to fend off an attacker. Even for myself, who is a large strong male trained in Krav Maga my ability to fight off multiple attackers is fairly slim.

Situational awareness goes a long way towards not ever being in any sort of situation like that, but sometimes you don’t get to pick. Had there been TWO guys in the car when your friend was changing her tire I suspect the situation would have gone very poorly.

To me the comparison is simple. My ability to accurately shoot and my ability to do well in a melee both decline with age. The former declines far slower than the latter. In the end fisticufts is a young man’s game and we’re all not getting any younger.

I have a fire extinguisher in my house, smoke and CO2 detectors in my house, insurance on both. I wear a life vest when boating. I carry a pocketknife and a means of making fire everywhere. If I flew I’d own a parachute.

I think of a firearm the same way: rather have it and never need it that need it and not have it.

So to answer the question, I doubt Alex had her purse outside but the dumbass robber probably demanded it thinking she was busy changing the tire.
There are martial art style that require an opponent to be close in order to be affective.

I’m 50 years old with slightly arthritic knees, moderate asthma. I help care for my 3 grand-kids (dad is single parent, working nights) and work full time.

So, when am I going to gain enough proficiency with unarmed martial arts to be able to overcome even a single attacker half my age, likely experienced in fighting and/or high on drugs — and if you think I’m making up that combination, look at Zimmerman/Martin.

If a person wants to add unarmed martial arts to their ability and skills, great. If a person doesn’t and just wants to carry a firearm for protection great. Make your choices and go get the proficiency you ( and no one else ) feels necessary to exercise your options. I feel the same way about less than lethal choices such as pepper spray or batons ; personal choice but due to personal factors, not a choice for me.

For me, I do know a little about fighting/martial arts, I don’t plan to use them. My first and foremost thought is to avoid, second to escape and lastly to defend.

Carrying a firearm doesn’t limit my options; it simply provides me with one or more options than being unarmed.
Another issue is that use of unarmed martial arts can be the same as using deadly force in some cases. If deadly force is required, why not employ the most efficient and effective means possible?

Because of Texas restrictions on certain mental health diagnoses being able to carry concealed, I am not allowed to have a concealed carry license (not sure if i can even own a firearm). Therefore my options in being able to defend myself fall on my fists, my feet, or some sort of weapon other than a firearm..I myself try to maintain a sense of awareness of my surroundings and rely on my instinct to keep me out of trouble..Thankfully ive never had a situation come up, but one never knows

I am an out-of-shape 53 year old office worker. I fail to see how my martial prowess would be an effective defense against anyone other than a 10 year old kid. Come to think of it, I’ve seen some pretty beefy 10 year olds; better make that a kindergarten kid.

If I was going to be in potentially dangerous situations on a regular basis (like closing a store in the evening) I would absolutely get a concealed carry license.

I am totally in favor of concealed carry, but I think you’re being a little extreme here. I’ve seen hardcore martial arts training pay off, in person, with people who were not facing a 10-year-old adversary, but a full grown human being. I’ve seen this multiple times. Not conjecture, but real life. One of those martial artists was a 60 year old man, walking along with me in my hometown, when a couple local idiots decided to try for his wallet. He was a master in Aikido. It did not go well for those goons. One of them, I’m pretty sure, lost an eye after he fetched up against a brick wall face-first. At the very least, he fractured an orbital bone.

Again, I am all in favor of concealed carry, and I intend to get my CHL this year – but in a really rotten situation, that will be my last choice. I know from personal fucked up experience on the street that if some stupid assed thug tries to pull on me, I can close the distance and hit him in the head so hard he can’t stand up, let alone remember to clear leather. And I won’t stop with just one nut to the head. I’m not a pretty dude, but I am burly and strong. I do work out, and keep my fighting skills honed. Saying that martial arts training, of which I have only the slightest amount, is worthless is to speak without experience in seeing how said training betters the person doing the training, in a fight.

Put simply, what good is a person’s carry pistol if I can rush them and smash them in the face so hard, they fall over, before they can pull their gun?

And with that in mind, anyone trying to rush me in such a situation will find that I’m very versed in defensive maneuvers and blocks. Not mere schoolkid training, but real life experience. I can dodge and block enough to get my gun out, and retain it.

Weirdest thing? I’m not some Steven Segall wannabe. I’m not a ninja, or a master of any fighting art. But I have plenty of experience in street fights, and I have only been knocked down once in such altercations. (That ended particularly badly for me. Four stitches to my cheek, wallet stolen.) I can hold my own. And although I will enjoy the weapon in my belt as a further level of assurance, I have no current faith in such. I do have faith in my fists, because without them, I would not be here. And I can use my fists faster than I can use my concealed carry piece.

JLGrant, in regards to your OP, I’m of the opinion that guns save lives, and so are to be preferred.

I hope your friend did not seriously injure or kill her assailant. Unfortunately, it’s likely that she did. Had she drawn a gun, odds are pretty good that he would have fled uninjured.

If anyone wants to give me grief, tough. I’m Catholic, and I hold out hope for the redemption of absolutely EVERYONE. I also recognize the preferability of injuring or killing an assailant over letting him injure or kill a victim, but nobody getting hurt is better. A gun has a deterrent effect that martial arts skill and melee weapons (such as the tire iron) do not, particularly when it comes to facing a group of assailants.

In regards to your reply to Charles Stuck in FL, you’re not paying attention to his situation. Charles is an 53 year old with a sedentary job, and I think it’s safe to say he has no interest in devoting the time and effort required for martial arts adequacy, let alone excellence.

If I find myself being confronted within draw distance, I’ll probably deliberately land on my ass, and keep my feet pointed at my assailant. He can’t knock me down, he probably doesn’t have the skill to hit me down here, I can kick his shins if he tries to close, and if he tries to jump on me, I expect to catch him on both feet and push him away hard enough to launch him a few feet. Even so, I’d rather have a gun.