Spiritual But Not Religious...What do you think of this? Do you think it's a legitimate position to have or is it just a cop out because the individual doesn't really want to put in any work for reasons a.b.or c.

The folks I met who use this have a different meaning for the term "religious". They see religion as "man made" tradition, and "spirituality" as immediate and experiental. I tell them that being "spiritual" requires intention and discipline. Religion is the discipline that guides the life of a "spiritual" person.

The folks I met who use this have a different meaning for the term "religious". They see religion as "man made" tradition, and "spirituality" as immediate and experiental. I tell them that being "spiritual" requires intention and discipline. Religion is the discipline that guides the life of a "spiritual" person.

That's pretty much the way I see it.

As to GRo's point about "spiritual cop-out", I suppose it could be that for some; for others, not so. Still, for others, SBNR could be a warning sign indicating "Spiritual narcissism".

I simply don't buy it. God demands that we are loyal to Him and obey His commandments. He demands a covenant relationship with His people.

Roo,

Regarding the demanding deity you've referenced, that concept only works if one shares your presuppositions regarding scripture and Christian doctrine. I suspect that many --- most? --- of the SBNR crowd don't share those suppositions nor do you share theirs. Therefore, your statement would fall on some very deaf ears. There would be little communication across the hiatus twixt thee & them.

Although I never use this expression I can understand it. To me spiritual means believing that there exists a spirit out there which cares for me, and also that there is a spirit in me in addition to all the material stuff doctors examine. Religious means (to me) believing in the things presented in the holy books (in the case of Christians the Bible) and practicing the orders of an established religious organization.

I simply don't buy it. God demands that we are loyal to Him and obey His commandments. He demands a covenant relationship with His people.

Roo,

Regarding the demanding deity you've referenced, that concept only works if one shares your presuppositions regarding scripture and Christian doctrine. I suspect that many --- most? --- of the SBNR crowd don't share those suppositions nor do you share theirs. Therefore, your statement would fall on some very deaf ears. There would be little communication across the hiatus twixt thee & them.

I happen to believe in the concept of a Covenant being requisite to being accepted by God. He wants a relationship which entails mutual commitment and responsibility.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9

I happen to believe in the concept of a Covenant being requisite to being accepted by God. He wants a relationship which entails mutual commitment and responsibility.

Roo,

Some points to ponder:

1. I agree with your above-referenced statement.

2. In this matter, you and I share the same presupposition.

3. Others, e.g. the SBNR types, do not share this presupposition.

4. Therefore, stating the above-referenced presupposition to them is a waste of time.

5. It is as much a waste of time as they stating some new-age claptrap to you.

6. "Presuppositionalism" was largely developed by hardshelled Reformed/Calvinist theologians. It is hardly a secular, humanist, leftwing cabal.

I happen to be a Calvinist and pretty hard cored about it.

I see the SBNR notion to be antithetical even to the Communal approach to salvation championed by KJS not to mention the scriptual appraches. SBNR is the ultimate in individualistic salvation so sharply condemned by KJS.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9

Yes, your 5 point Calvinism is your set of presupposition, along with other presuppositions, which you hold foundational, irreducible and incontestable.

I see the SBNR notion to be antithetical even to the Communal approach to salvation championed by KJS not to mention the scriptual appraches.

Indeed you do see it that way. It could not be otherwise, given your presuppositions. The SBNR folks don't share your presuppositions, but work from a different set. They therefore have a different perception.

I don't agree with them; but then, I don't share their complex of presuppositions either.

SBNR is the ultimate in individualistic salvation so sharply condemned by KJS.

As far as I understand her statements, KJS sees salvation as the individual being saved within community, not apart from it, nor being homogenized through it. It's really compatable with Dr. Victor Frankel's individual-within-community insights. It also accords with Jesus' distinctly Judaic comcept of the salvation or re-integration & re-constitution of the Jewish People, the Kingdom of God established on earth, an inarguably communal concept.