Q: Should NZ change its flag: What’s your personal opinion? Should there be a referendum? If you want the flag changed, what’s your favourite design?

A: Yes, my personal opinion is we should have something more relevant to an independent, small Asia/Pacific nation. I think a referendum is a suitable way to deal with an issue that can be very polarising. I don’t like the idea of the silver fern on a black background. The elements I would like to see in a flag are the Southern Cross, blue for the sea, green for the land and mountains, and a reference to our Maori heritage.

So Little’s demand yesterday to scrap the referendum is pure hypocrisy. He’s now against it, because the PM proposed it.

Alan Wilkinson

Satantango

Labour’s opposition to the flag referendum has absolutely nothing to do with the substance of the issue but everything to do with trying to stick it to John Key. In the past you would have associated National with sticking to the our British heritage past, and Labour with fostering a sense of nationhood based on being an independent country of the South Pacific. My, how times have changed! Labour is now siding with the traditionalists, (albeit for purely political reasons) and it is National who are advancing the nationhood agenda. Amazing.

Brian Marshall

The polls tell him people are pissed off we are wasting money on the personal interest of the prime minister. That doesn’t make him wrong, but it is hypocritical of him. Personally, I love our current flag and all it represents. You don’t like it? Then you are welcome to leave.

holysheet

Jimmy

Peter Fraser was imprisoned for 12 months in 1916, charged with sedition for opposing conscription. Then in 1940, he was Prime Minister when conscription was reintroduced. His quote- “I changed my mind”.

Politicians are entitled to change their minds, but if it isn’t done honestly or with good reason, they will rightly be viewed as the contemptible poll chasers they are.

I’m pretty sure that Andrew Little doesn’t have an ounce of the conviction that Peter Fraser had.

hmmokrightitis

Or maybe, Nige, hes an idiot who thinks his way to power is being against everything JK stands for.

Me, Im not a huge fan or detractor of the flag issue. I wonder why JK decided to invest political capital in it, but thats the extent of it for me. As for Little, its yet another example of the fact that he thinks he can get away with shit like this – and the media largely seem to let that happen.

David Garrett

Actually, I am with Little on this one…and I don’t think accusations of hypocrisy stack up… He has restated his personal view – AS his personal view – that a new flag is needed..

The Labour Party policy is that the issue be “put to the public”…It has been, and despite the best efforts of the “panel”, led by that fantastic man Professor John Burrows QC, the result is that – to the extent any is interested at all – a very clear message to “leave the bloody flag alone.”

Public meetings attended by 10 people – and those in the bigger cities – and 90% of those who left a comment on a website registering their view that no change is wanted, is public consultation enough in my view…It’s already cost $8 million apparently (Christ knows how)…the remaining $18 million budgeted should be spent on other things…such as making the lives of our rapidly diminishing number of war veterans who served under the flag better.

mikenmild

alloytoo

Oh come on people, has no one linked Labour’s recent flurry of policy announcement, prison scandal pronouncements and red flags to their desperate attempt to run away from their Chinese property own goal?

They don’t really give a damn about any of these issues, they’re simply trying to full the ether with white noise hoping the Chinese community with forget about them.

Alan Wilkinson

@DG, the referenda will show what the public think and whether you are right. My guess is that they will probably vote for a change if enough bother to vote. If there is a poor turnout it will probably be won by those who are died-in-the-wool traditionalists augmented by the politically motivated. I think that would be a poor outcome for NZ and a lost opportunity to get something that better represents and markets this country.

alloytoo

@DG

It appears somewhat disingenuous to invoke war veterans who fought to preserve democracy in a campaign which does not appear interested in swaying the outcome of the referendum, but rather seem intent on denying the silent majority the opportunity of casting their vote at all.

Satantango

@David Garrett

Actually, I am with Little on this one…and I don’t think accusations of hypocrisy stack up… He has restated his personal view – AS his personal view – that a new flag is needed..

I suspect that the need for a flag referendum represents to a large extent John Key’s personal view too. I suspect there are a number of National MPs who are opposed to a change in flag and can not see the need for a referendum. But clearly as Prime Minister John Key gets to call the shots of this one.

Andrew Little’s personal views as leader of the Labour Party also carry some weight. It is disingenuous of him to claim on the one hand his views in favour of a new flag are personal, yet he is opposed to it as leader of the Labour Party. That is, as we oldies used to say, having a bob each way. It is weak political leadership to try and claim both sides of a political issue. He can’t have it both ways and should show some courage and back himself on this.

Fentex

Speaking of hypocrisy – what is DPF’s position on speaking for others?

Little may very well have adopted an anti-flag referendum position on the simple logic of expecting it to be popular because the referendum seems doomed to failure by lack of public support.

That would seem consistent with populist race baiting and faux indignation on being called on it – a concerted effort to try and grab the populist standard of opposition.

No need to assume and assert it’s to do with Key’s promotion of the referendum.

It’s stupid all on it’s own – bending without principle in the hope of being matey with presumed unthinking hordes as if the great unwashed who are assumed to flock together through unthinking loyalty wouldn’t recognize untrustworthy disloyalty.

The idea defeats itself when you’ve left evidence of your duplicity in plain sight.

Joe

It may be hypocritical, but his call to drop the referendum is a good one. The current flag is just fine. Once they have changed the flag the next thing will be changing the name of the country to Aotearoa I imagine. I mean, if you think the flag does not represent us then you will have to change the name of New Zealand because that represents us even less than the flag does. Change for the sake of change is just stupid.

box345

Not like you, David Garret, to cherry pick the statistics that favour a point of view, while overwhelming statistics are ignored which point to the opposite.

Over a million views of the flags on the web, for example. Over 10,000 designs submitted. These are not insignificant statistics.

New Zealanders are pathetic at times. You bitch and whinge and whine for certain things. Then you cringe when the time comes to actually have to do something. Good god. New Zealanders are being asked to exhaust themselves by making a decision. Far easier for Kiwis to piss take. You love piss-taking so much, it should be depicted in your flag.

Bring on the flag change. New Zealanders, rise above this piss-take.

Just for once, Kiwis, show you are capable. You are piss weak at times, New Zealanders. Piss weak.

You’re so piss weak, you’ll even downtick this comment, rather than have the guts to face making a decision.

Now that it is revealed that both major parties supported flag change, get behind it, self-foot-shooting fools.

cmm

@Fentex:
“No need to assume and assert it’s to do with Key’s promotion of the referendum.”

It’s a perfectly valid assumption to make. Thus far most of what Little says is just saying the negative of what JK says.

To be a credible government, you need more than just saying no when the current govt says yes. You need policy. You need to build a consistent picture over time. Something that builds up towards election time.

@DG To suggest non-attendance at flag referendum meetings shows a lack of public interest strikes me as out of touch with how most people collect information these days – I’m interested but didn’t attend, too busy when they were around and I get most of the information I need online. That’s the trend these days. I’m looking forward to having my say when the referenda occur.

Little is unfortunately showing too much ineptitude when it comes to political management and the constant opposing of everything (dating back pre-Little of course) is a turn off for me and, I’m sure, many other voters. As Jimmy notes changing your mind is not the issue, changing without good reason or conviction is.

And the contention that the change is acceptable because the original statement was made in a personal capacity is a weak one, particularly when the Labour position (and the left generally) for a long time has been for change and breaks from our “colonial traditions”.

@Brian Marshall – Alan Wilkinson is right. I’ll be voting for change but it doesn’t mean I don’t respect the current flag, and if the vote is too keep the current one, so be it.

igm

Little is a bigger joke than Cunliffe, Goff, and Shearer . . . the unions really screwed up getting this unelectable germ at the helm. However, the fairy was given prime time on Red Radio to make a statement regarding OCR . . . don’t think he knew what it was, and he is the next leader in waiting . . . perverted losers.

tvb

The Labour Party should know by now that only the National Party is trusted to undertake important constitutional reforms. And all the important ones have been National. Anything Labour attempts is often skewed to favour them. The Electoral Finance Act was a blatant attempt to stifle the way the National Party raises money. The flag for instance would have a red background with some Labour Party symbol on it. The single chamber, the Official Informational Act, MMP were National. National reversed the cackhanded way the knights and Dames were dropped, but did keep the Supreme Court.

Satantango

For those that have not seen it yet – originally posted on Whaleoil – I do recommend watching Question Time on this issue and the manner in which John Key absolutely eviscerates Andrew Little and his hyprocisy. It is a commanding performance from the Prime Minister and while I am biased on this issue – I favour a new flag – you can’t fault his manner in dealing with this. A truly masterful performance.

waikatogirl

Satantango
That is, as we oldies used to say, having a bob each way. It is weak political leadership to try and claim both sides of a political issue. He can’t have it both ways and should show some courage and back himself on this.
***
Also referred to as sitting on the fence. No wonder Angry Andy has that pained look on his face.

There are more important things to spend $26m, or even the remaining $18m on.
Also, I don’t appreciate the need or desire, from some, to wipe our British, Scottish, etc history away. I’m a 6th generation kiwi, but NZ is still strongly connected by history. We should be proud of our origins, it’s intertwined in our own culture and contributed to who we are.

mikenmild

tvb
You sabotaged your own comment about only National undertaking constitutional reforms when you mentioned the Supreme Court. Other changes you may have missed included extending the Waitangi Tribunal’s jurisdiction back to 1840, the Constitution Act and the Bill of Rights.

Oh, it couldn’t possibly be that Little is opposing the referendum because the overwhelming country-wide view is that it is a waste of money? It couldn’t possibly be because things have changed since he originally made those statements? It couldn’t possibly be that Little is listening to people and National isn’t?

The flag referendum is complete waste of time and money, and I for one will be boycotting the referenda. When the percentage of people voting comes in at 10% or less, will National finally realise that there are more important things to think about than changing the flag? I’d predict that they won’t.

box345

Enkidu, this argument of there being more important things to do, is the most stupid enduring argument ever on politics.

If parliaments (and people) only ever did the most important things, then the country would long since have ground to a halt.

You might be capable of doing only one thing at once, but every other person in the world (and every parliament) is capable of managing priorities, such that all things get attended to, in a process of sensible ongoing proportionate allocation. Dealing with the lesser issues by simply never getting around to them, is rank stupidity. The argument is similarly rank, and retarded.

I suspect Angry Andy has read the tea leaves and knows the result of the referendum will be to maintain the current flag so hes positioning himself to be able to say there I told you so after the event.

Boris Piscina

We’re not piss weak box345, we just like our flag as it is, we like what it looks like as it is, we like what it represents as it is, and we see no reason to change it. And I didn’t give you a tick either way 😉

This is quite breathtaking hypocrisy from Labour. They’re all republicans, they’re all flag-changers, they’ve been banging on about it since before Helen Clark’s day, and come the referendums they will all vote for change and all vote for whichever of the burnt offerings on display is the most heinously abominable, sycophantically Maori, irrelevantly trendy, and inclusively PC.

They’re only making noises about it now because even they have realised that 3 out of 4 New Zealanders aren’t interested and John Key is pushing for change; in fact their hypocrisy is only matched by the stupidity of their strategists who for some unfathomable reason appear not to have thought that National’s own researchers would have access to every contrarily stupid thing said by every Labour politician on the subject since the beginning of time, and would swiftly and gleefully smack them in the face with it.

Alan Wilkinson

@Manolo, why would it be nonsense to have a unique emblem the world can recognise as representing our country?

And don’t try to pretend we have one at present. Only an infinitesimal fraction of foreigners could identify our current flag and I doubt even the majority of Kiwis know the difference between it and the Aussie flag.

Brian Marshall

No Alan Wilkinson, you are the fucked up arrogant twit. The NZ flag represents the country. This country of ours is free. You have the freedom to disagree with what i say, and if you don’t like the flag, don’t like the freedom, don’t like anything about what i say or this country then you have the freedom to fuck off and leave.

For the record, our beautiful flag has a union flag in the top left corner, 4 red stars with a yellow or white border on them in a sea of blue in the outline of the southern cross. The Australian flag has an extra star in the southern cross and and extra ugly and big star underneath the union flag. i can tell the difference, and a lot of those same foreigners you claim couldn’t tell the difference, couldn’t tell you which flag belonged to which nation if you gave them 15 of the biggest nations countries flags.

Call me what you will, (10:27am) but you live under the same flag that represents freedom and most people in this country are happy with it and don’t want it to change.

David Garrett

I am not saying for a moment that Little is not politicking…of course he is…And of course he will say “I told you so” when – as I believe will be the case – the overwhelming majority (who most commenters seem to think favour change) vote instead for the status quo.

I am sorry someone thinks I am cherry picking stats….as he or she says, I try not to do that. I know nothing of “web views” of flag designs etc…What I do know is that something like 250 people IN TOTAL came to the meetings run by the Consultative Committee around the country, and that 90% (or something) of those who left comments on a website set up to receive “our values” said “leave the bloody flag alone”. I don’t know how many comments have now been left on that site or what the current change/dont change ratio is; someone else will no doubt link to it.

I dont think there is anything wrong in changing course when it it becomes glaringly obvious that something is not a goer. I abhor the childish crowing – by BOTH major parties about “embarrassing U turns” or the like when a party deviates from its path…Was it JK Galbraith who said something like an intelligent man, when confronted with overwhelmingly evidence contrary to his view, changes his mind?

Oh, and whoever said “first the flag, then the name of the country” is spot on…Why would the Aotearoans NOT mount such a campaign, “to recognise our new identity”??

Alan Wilkinson

@Brian Marshall, thanks for demonstrating your vulgar stupidity. I have lots of freedoms and enjoy them. The referendum will show what most people think and want. That is another freedom we enjoy but you obviously don’t. Pathetic.

mikenmild

I agree that it is wrong to label someone as a hypocrite for changing his mind.
Did DPF label John Key a hypocrite for any of his many changes of stance?

I think the flag should be changed, but public opinion appears to be fairly solidly against it. Oh, and we should change the name of the country to Aotearoa while we’re at it – than ks for the suggestion, DG.

minto57

Satantango

It fascinates me that the opponents of the flag referendum continually raise the issue of the cost. At the end of the 2014 fiscal year total government expenses were $92.2 billion. The cost of the referendum process is $26 million – or about 2 hours of an entire fiscal year’s of government expenses. It is an insignificant cost in the total scheme of things. And should be get a new flag that could last us for at least another 100 or 200 years.

The cost of the referendum is not a real or substantive issue when set against overall government expenses.

m@tt

I would like a referendum as well.

I’d just like it to be done in a way that doesn’t require a ‘flag consultation panel’ and two stand-alone referendums.
A simple “Would you like the New Zealand flag to be changed’ with a yes/no answer would suffice and if asked at the next general election it would minimise the necessary cost.

ciaron

I think we’re missing something in this discussion.

I don’t see the relevance in asking 50-odd Seppos to identify our flag. If you showed them the flag of Eritrea or Bosnia and Herzegovina, both having similar populations to ours, I think a number somewhat less than two would be able to identify them correctly.
The truth of the matter is we are a pimple on the arse of the world, and what does it really matter if Joe Average in Times Square can identify our flag? what sort of yardstick is that fer cryn’ out loud? Government and Trade officials should be adequately briefed, and it’s not like the correct information is hard to find…

And as for all Key’s whinging about being put in Abbots place and sitting under the Aussie flag; FFS, don’t we have liaison type people to make sure this kind of thing doesn’t happen?

Biscuit

Yet again we hear this ‘Oh, the original flag should never be changed’ diatribe.

Fact: Scotland very nearly declared independence from the ‘United’ Kingdom last year … and likely will go very near to declaring independence (if not actually doing so) the next time a referendum is held..

At that time, the Union Flag presumably would need to be redrawn so as to exclude Scotland’s Cross of St Andrew.

What would our traditionalists do then?

Insist the ‘old’ Union Flag be retained as it was in our flag’s top-left corner?

somewhatthoughtful

NZ probably needs a new flag, maybe. Given this, I wonder why the Nats have done such a great job of ensuring we don’t get one by forming a panel with exactly 0 visual artists, designers or specialist flag designers. Hell even an art historian might help.

I’m sure the panel are very capable of tying their shoes, order meals in restaurants, even going to the bathroom without others’ help, but how the fuck they’re qualified to select a flag is beyond me. Typical NZ, get an opportunity to do something world leading, and fuck it up by getting your mate to sort it out instead.

nz_aj

I‘m against wasting time and money changing the flag. I think there are other far more important things to change. However, the referendum will happen anyway. I will vote for change for all the reasons the PM stated in the video above.
Mr Little is a joke.

SJM

The attitude of politicians is sickening, a symbol of identity should not be the subject of division nor used for political advantage, thus defeating the purpose of the flag.

Such matters should be the sole provence of we the people, to be changed or altered at our discretion and initiative. Our identity, our political structures should not be the playthings of party, the powerful nor the influential.

I hope that the flag stays as it is, if for no other reason than to show that it is our flag, not a tool of political advantage. If we change it it shall be when we are good and ready, if ever.