Though really it should just be called 'climbing' which is what it used to be called . . .
Sport climbing should probably be called 'con-temporary climbing' or 'unconventional". . .
And then the climbing hard routes on natural (as opposed to artificial) protection could be called 'New Climbing' or 'Future Climbing' . . .

Whilst Bangla's beard may be absent, you do get to do lots of trad climbing, drink lots of tea (and possibly beer and red wine) and have lots of social gatherings. The more dedicated even practice cliff rescue, but the rest of us are to busy climbing and imbibing various liquids and merely offer our unpracticed cliff rescue skills.

And Sol, what have you been doing since you left the club? GIve me a call or an email or come visit. Maybe not calling this evening though as I have a bugger of a headache and typing is about all the communication i can manage right now.

On 11/04/2013 One day Hero wrote:>Two problems mate, liability if your proteges axe themselves, and spending>your life organising outings for a bunch of unintentionally suicidal, overly>dependant, boring idiots.>

I see plenty of benefits to the climbing community if such a group existed.

Since joining this forum several weeks ago I've read an overwhelming number of complaints from a small number of climbers. Most of the comments appear to be an effort to educate the rest of the community, to gain respect and support. Insulting them won't get you there.

Most climbers, new to the sport, do not enter it climbing traditionally. A trad club like this, that was open to having lesser experienced trad climbers on board like me, could attract members of the community with aspirations to climb trad but not the confidence, skills, gear or climbing partner. I've read a few comments on the forum from reasonably experienced sport climbers who indicate they'd be intersted.

A sport climber has a limited number of climbs available. To access more climbs they can choose to bolt more or climb higher grades. The easier option in my view is to get a rack and have a go at the innumerable climbs already available. Increasing climbs available to me more than a drill will.

Trad climbing can only benefit from a club like this. It won't benefit however with ODH online referring to anyone who'd like to give it a go as "boring idiots."

Makizza. I doubt giving the club an ambiguous name is helpful.

If you want to see climbing maintain it's traditions and codes then getting behind and supporting a club like this would be a great start. If you want to bring more climbers around to your line of thinking then you could try sharing your knowledge in the field.

Hi Ash, I can't speak for the Sydney Rockies climbing club but I'll give you an idea as to what the Vic Climbing Club does;

On 11/04/2013 ashfall tuff wrote:>things i would like a club to offer:

>arranged climbing trips
Yup, to Araps, Gramps and lots of local areas. Even to Point Perp over Easter.

>'how to' trad climb workshops, gear fundamentals
They have someone who runs a multi-day 'learn to lead' course (cost involved) along with experienced climbers sharing their knowledge during club climbing trips. Clubs are an easy way to meet climbers to learn from...

>first aid training - basic emergency response
There are plenty of providers for this. For a club to do this I imagine they'd need to be accredited. Our trip leaders are first aid trained. The club also runs the occasional Self Rescue course.

>cliff care
Sydney Rockies and Vic Climbing Club employ an access officer, Chockstones very own 'Access T' is the Vic access officer and I believe Kuu was the Rockies access officer. Apologies as I can't recall their new officer.

>bbq's, video's, campfires
Usually occur though we could all use more campfires and toasted marshmallows;)

>management meetings
If you mean a committee type meeting, they're held monthly.

Ashfall - as pointed out, they already exist, at least in Vic (VCC) and Sydney (SRC). While not purely trad, they are rock climbing clubs rooted in a long-standing tradition of (by definition) trad climbing. They both offer much of what you are after - so even if you are based in Narrabri (I think thats right?) you might consider joining the SRC, and getting down to some of their meets. You'll find plenty of trad climbers there...

I think its a pity there is no national body for rock climbing in Aus. I'm a transplant from South Africa, where they have the Mountain Club of SA as a national body, and then very active local chapters in every province. The club has been around for maybe 100 years, and has considerable political & financial clout - resulting in them being able to do things like buying whole mountain areas to secure permanent access, sponsoring significant expeditions, lobbying politically for access, promotion of the sport etc. It also provides a central forum for thrashing out thorny issues such as the bolting wars - not to say that they don't have their own heated debates & issues, but it has resulted in a general consensus about bolting ethics, trad only areas etc.

Rather than supporting a trad-only club, I'd support further development of the existing clubs, and cooperation towards a national body or coalition of state-based clubs. Lets face it, for all the supposed differences between trad & spot climbers (how many climbers do you know that exclusively do one or the other?) to the rest of the world we are indistinguishable. I don't see any profit in further emphasising differences between types of climbers, but can see major benefits in acting together to promote shared aims.

On 12/04/2013 pedro.c wrote:
.>>>>Most climbers, new to the sport, do not enter it climbing traditionally.>A trad club like this, that was open to having lesser experienced trad>climbers on board like me, could attract members of the community with>aspirations to climb trad but not the confidence, skills, gear or climbing>partner. I've read a few comments on the forum from reasonably experienced>sport climbers who indicate they'd be intersted.

The thing is, in this modern world, there are people willing to teach sport climbers and complete novices to trad climb. They're called guides. You pay for them. That's because they spent years developing a bunch of skills to enable them to safely and efficiently provide instructions and come with all the boring legal necessities like insurance. People are prepared to pay to go to the gym. To travel to the crag. People pay to do yoga classes, learn languages, courses in macrame if they really want. Why should climbing be any different?

The VCC and other clubs offer a pretty good service considering they are basically a bunch of volunteers. Some of us learnt through uni clubs back when they were a bunch of people just out to have a good time and throwing a few beginners at the rock was a sideline. It was fun, but it wasn't very safe! Others learn through people they just meet, and the lucky ones meet someone who has a sound knowledge base and the patience and skills to impart it. Others meet people who think they know it all and actually are a hazard. Or people who just want a belayer and no real intention of imparting any skills. The development of proper standards of instruction has actually been a good thing for improving safety at the cliff, but people also have to be prepared to pay for that.>>A sport climber has a limited number of climbs available. To access more>climbs they can choose to bolt more or climb higher grades. The easier>option in my view is to get a rack and have a go at the innumerable climbs>already available. Increasing climbs available to me more than a drill>will.

I totally agree with this option - it annoys me when people say they need more easy sport routes - there are a plethora of easy trad routes out there already. Another advantage of professional instruction is it instills confidence that what you are learning is safe because you are learning from people who really know and have many years of experience. >>Trad climbing can only benefit from a club like this. It won't benefit>however with ODH online referring to anyone who'd like to give it a go>as "boring idiots."

I do actually get where Damo is coming from here underneath the Damoisms. It is a big call of a bunch of volunteers to give their time and energy to a bunch of strangers they may not even end up getting along with and who do inevitably end up doing the odd stupid things that puts themselves in danger.

I used to be enthusiastic at running club events. For many years now, however, you have to be someone pretty special for me to volunteer my time and skills to teaching you. It rapidly gets monotonous how often people learn that you climb and ask you to teach them. I don't know where people get this idea that it's somehow OK to think someone you have just met might want to lend you gear and teach you something that's actually highly technical and took years to refine skills in. If you're a hot chick however, just try asking Simey. It'd probably even work on Damo.

If you want to join a club ashfall just join VCC or SRC. All those suggestions of yours already occur on at least a yearly basis. You'll have better success joining, getting involved and adding your opinion to the direction of the club than creating a whole new club with one focus.

I definitely support the idea of a national body. One already exists for sport climbing (SCA) and potentially this could be expanded to include all aspects of climbing with different sections to focus on the different goals/agendas (trad, cliff care, sport/comp climbing etc).

And Macca creating a new club with an ambiguous name out of spite will get you nowhere and only serve to confuse and annoy people (e.g. the Australian vaccination network).

On 12/04/2013 Wendy wrote:>however, you have to be someone pretty special for me to volunteer my time>and skills to teaching you. It rapidly gets monotonous how often people>learn that you climb and ask you to teach them. I don't know where people>get this idea that it's somehow OK to think someone you have just met might>want to lend you gear and teach you something that's actually highly technical>and took years to refine skills in. If you're a hot chick however, just>try asking Simey. It'd probably even work on Damo.

Wasn't it you rabbiting on about sexist comments the other day? They obviously weren't hot prospects for you then Wendy?

On 12/04/2013 Wendy wrote:>I don't know where people get this idea that it's somehow OK to think someone>you have just met might want to lend you gear and teach you something that's actually >highly technical and took years to refine skills in.

I joined a uni club to find people to climb with. It worked, provided you're willing to say 'no' a lot to people who think they have a right to your time.

On 12/04/2013 Duang Daunk wrote:>Wasn't it you rabbiting on about sexist comments the other day? They obviously>weren't hot prospects for you then Wendy?

On 12/04/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:>I don't disagree with what you're saying Wendy, in fact most of the exact>same things have been said by our local club. If you want to learn trad,>you really *should* consider paying. Otherwise what you learn might be>shoddy at best.>
Shoddy? Not necessarily so, (further elaboration lower in this reply).

>However, it's also no big surprise that many people's thinking goes along>the lines of 'well, it's scary in the first place, i'm not entirely sure>I'll enjoy it, I can learn to sport climb or boulder pretty much free,>and so I'm pi**ed off that trad climbers tell me to go pay lots of money>to learn this dubious and dangerous style rather than giving me a taste>so I can work out if it's worth paying to learn more'.>
Your post suggests that the people learning the sport and boulder genres are doing so freely, perhaps by simply getting out there and doing it? What is to stop those same people doing the same thing with trad?
(The need for gear argument doesn't stack up either, - further elaboration below).

>Trad climbers have to really think about this. You can't really bemoan>a change in the general style/approach to climbing (it is NOT ethics no>matter what anyone says) if you're not prepared to teach the masses about>your better style - directly.

I for one am not bemoaning the changes (I accept that shit happens), and I do introduce many people to trad climbing, however don't consider any one style as 'better', due they all have their merits.

OK, elaboration...
I remember a time when most who got into climbing simply did so by being inspired (by book/film/person), and simply wanting to give it a go to the point of actually going and doing it, regardless of gear limitations/instruction/costs.
Yes, some preventable accidents happened, but the vast majority survived their mistakes.
Maybe people were more resilient back then, as I don't believe that common sense is less abounding today, and even if it is, then the fear factor keeps most people on the sane side of their actions.
If those same people came across others/clubs/etc then that was considered a bonus.

Regarding gear, it is not rocket science, and improvisation can be easily and cheaply done! ~> ... safely too, as long as the basic principles are worked out, preferably beforehand but along the way can still work.
Regarding avoiding shoddiness; the concept amuses me that those clambering for mentors, are often going to those self-taught trad masters for it! Irony indeed! ~> Yes change has come upon us, and we now need a Cert4 just to teach someone to pick their-
;-)

>>On 12/04/2013 Duang Daunk wrote:>>Wasn't it you rabbiting on about sexist comments the other day? They>obviously>>weren't hot prospects for you then Wendy?>>Sexism's general, that's just taking the piss.

Actually, it's even almost word for word out of both of their mouths ... I admit, I have also suggested going climbing largely on basis of non-climbing interests before as well, I think we might all be a little guilty of such behavior at times. Fortunately, the sex ratio of climbing has been such over the years that I rarely have to offer to teach people in order to have an excuse to find out if they really are of any non-climbing interest.

Not sure if VCC still does this but in the past you could join on a trip as a guest without actually signing up for a membership which would allow you to get a taste of climbing without any commitment.

On 12/04/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:>Fear mostly, I reckon. I'm not suggesting any of these thoughts are founded,>just it seems to be a lot of what's involved. I ask mates who only sport>climb why not do trad and they say 'too dangerous, gear is too difficult>to place or too often goes wrong'. These are the same people who seem>happy to sketch out on a highball.

Some people just enjoy sport more than trad.....me being one of them, why? no idea, don't care why either as it doesn't really matter, I've just learnt over the years I have more fun on sport climbing days than I did trad climbing...and I know a lot more who have done both but prefer sport as well...and a lot who have done both and prefer trad...everyone is different and will enjoy different aspects..... categorising a sub set of the sport and laying claim to why they do what they do is a very simplistic and normally wrong view to have...... this trad vs sport thing is all a bit of a yawn TBH as it is all climbing.

On 12/04/2013 rodw wrote:>On 12/04/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:>>Fear mostly, I reckon. I'm not suggesting any of these thoughts are>founded,>>just it seems to be a lot of what's involved. I ask mates who only sport>>climb why not do trad and they say 'too dangerous, gear is too difficult>>to place or too often goes wrong'. These are the same people who seem>>happy to sketch out on a highball.>>Some people just enjoy sport more than trad.....me being one of them,>why? no idea, don't care why either as it doesn't really matter, I've just>learnt over the years I have more fun on sport climbing days than I did>trad climbing...and I know a lot more who have done both but prefer sport>as well...and a lot who have done both and prefer trad...everyone is different>and will enjoy different aspects..... categorising a sub set of the sport>and laying claim to why they do what they do is a very simplistic and normally>wrong view to have...... this trad vs sport thing is all a bit of a yawn>TBH as it is all climbing.

+1
Particularly considering 'Trad' climbing is a construct of the 70s and is hardly the traditional way climbing developed. It is a style of climbing and not an ethical stance (convincing yourself that it is an ethical stance is like JWH convincing himself and others of the supposed WMDs in Iraq)

On 12/04/2013 Sabu wrote:>Not sure if VCC still does this but in the past you could join on a trip>as a guest without actually signing up for a membership which would allow>you to get a taste of climbing without any commitment.