Tyrant wrote:StoutFiles disagrees with me, I'm shocked... I'm not going to play the what if game with you. Neither of us knows what would've happened had these been an original storyline. We could guess, but I am quite frankly tired of debating guesses with people that have an irrational level of hatred towards a set of movies. If you were disappointed, then you were disappointed. You, nor I, represent everybody and very likely not anywhere close to a majority. Most sane people don't go watch a third movie in a series if they disliked 1 and 2. You have only yourself to blame for riding that crazy train.

Ep. 1 made the most money because of people hoping for that same magic the OT had. In my town movie tickets were pre ordered for a week. Ep. 3 made a financial comeback because people knew what was coming given the OT. It's pretty much a given that the movies would have made less money without the OT. If you choose not to see it that way, then you're just ignoring the numbers and common sense. It isn't irrational to hate the prequels, it's irrational to pretend that the prequels were nearly as good or even close to as liked.

I'm not sure why seeing a film I would probably dislike is riding a crazy train. It was 8 bucks and two hours of my life to see how the car crash would end. Besides, I wouldn't be able to talk about the prequels had I not seen all of them.

I implore you to watch the Star Wars reviews at: http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/ In fact, I ask anyone that likes the prequels to watch the reviews, then come back here and still defend the films. They cover everything I'm angry about, but you'd rather not know the pitfalls of the prequels just because you can't see them. I know you won't watch them Tyrant, but maybe other people will see the light.

Tyrant wrote:StoutFiles disagrees with me, I'm shocked... I'm not going to play the what if game with you. Neither of us knows what would've happened had these been an original storyline. We could guess, but I am quite frankly tired of debating guesses with people that have an irrational level of hatred towards a set of movies. If you were disappointed, then you were disappointed. You, nor I, represent everybody and very likely not anywhere close to a majority. Most sane people don't go watch a third movie in a series if they disliked 1 and 2. You have only yourself to blame for riding that crazy train.

Ep. 1 made the most money because of people hoping for that same magic the OT had. In my town movie tickets were pre ordered for a week. Ep. 3 made a financial comeback because people knew what was coming given the OT. It's pretty much a given that the movies would have made less money without the OT. If you choose not to see it that way, then you're just ignoring the numbers and common sense. It isn't irrational to hate the prequels, it's irrational to pretend that the prequels were nearly as good or even close to as liked.

What happened to you, your home town, your state, etc, don't matter for this discussion. Like, at all. The plural of anecdote =/=evidence. Never has, never will. If you would actually read what I wrote, you would see that I conceded that the massive success of TPM owes a lot to the OT. The rest of that is guess work. I never said the movies wouldn't have been less succesful had there been no OT. I said neither of us knows what would've happened, because neither of us does. You have guesses, so do I. However, I personally don't presume to have divination abilities to see alternate timelines where events happened differently to provide me with "facts" about what would've happened. I could argue that the movies still would've been successful because they wouldn't have had to deal with fans chalk full of enough nostalgia to choke an elephant who went on to rage with the fury of a thousand suns that the movies weren't what they were owed. It's irrational to hate virtually any movie. It's a movie, let it go. But what I meant was the level of hatred. I've seen it hit levels that would lead me to believe the people involved need serious help. And who's pretending? Did I ever say what I thought of them?

But, you want numbers? I have them, because I have already had this discussion elsewhere. Go here to see the relevant post, or read the spoilered part below. It looks kind of screwy because it didn't include what I was responding to.

Tyrant wrote:My attempt to explain why it is illogical to believe a movie that made nearly $850 million is "hated by almost everyone". Spoilered for length and because at this point it is really a side discussion to the main discussion at hand.

True. But, most people don't go watch part 2 and 3 if they disliked part 1. Looking at the box office, there was a backlash after part 1 and the sales for part 2 saw a noticeable drop. However, they saw a noticeable increase for part 3. This is why attempts to claim everyone hates the movies don't work. People obviously had a reason to watch part 3 in noticeably greater numbers than they did part 2.

What I am being asked to believe is that a very large number of people went to watch these movies. Then, they somehow all disliked them (yes, I know "everyone" is hyperbole). However, they failed to tell anyone this and let the people they know go watch movies they thought were awful. And they themselves went back to watch the movies again in noticeable numbers. So, either a noticeable number of people actually do like these movies or everyone went to watch them all at once before word got out that they were bad (because people seem to not have any problems letting other people when they dislike movies) and they came back for two more movies. There's nothing I can say that will change someone's mind if they believe the latter of those two.

I ran the numbers. The average ticket price in the U.S. in 2005 was $6.41. Revenge of the Sith made $380,270,577 domestically. That comes out to 59,324,583 tickets. There is some flexibility in that number I'm sure, but it gives us a rough number to work with. So, either 1/5 the entire population of the United States went to watch Revenge of the Sith, possible but highly unlikely, or there were a number of repeat viewers (which, to me at least, implies that they liked the movie).

Skewed doesn't give you $800+ million worldwide. Hype and fandom can only accomplish so much.

I would love to see anything at all that can back that up. I also find it very hard to believe RotS was more hyped than TPM aka The First New Star Wars Movie in 16 years following on the heels of the rerelease of the OT. This is exactly what I am talking about. A whole lot of "I didn't like it, a lot of folks online seem to agree with me, therefore everyone doesn't like it" all the while with nothing to back up these statements while the actual evidence is to the contrary.

And here is exhibit A. You were somehow misled and letdown, so naturally everyone else was too.

This would produce either a flat box office between the movies, as only fans are watching them because they are apparently the only ones deluded enough to do so, or it would create a downward trend as non fans jumped ship after being burned by either TPM or AotC. That isn't the trend. RotS has a noticeably higher box office that goes way beyond inflation. That means more tickets were sold beyond a doubt. That implies either more people went (which itself implies they saw something they liked in one of the other two) or more people went repeatedly (implying they liked the movie).

So, again, you had problems with the movie. That means all of nothing in comparison to the general outlook on the movie. Either that or everyone else couldn't figure out the pretty simple math of "Ep.1=bad, Ep.2=bad, Ep.3 probably also=bad so maybe I should wait for the DVD" I am not in the camp that believe everyone other than myself is an idiot, so I give no weight to that argumentI would love to know where anyone said ticket sales is a sign of quality (which is itself highly subjective). No one is making that argument no matter how many people say otherwise. I am saying that movies don't make nearly $850 million when "everyone hates them". That's not how reality works.

Low ticket sales can say a lot of things. They can say that people are no longer falling for the 3D gimmick. They can say a lot of people don't see a reason to pay to watch a movie in a theater full of rude people when they can watch the same movie, that they already payed for (possible in multiple formats), in their own home on their own schedule. It could even say the bad economy is a factor. It can say vitrually anything, about the current situation. It says nothing about the previous ticket sales.

If anyone wants to see the counter argument to most of these claims, they only have to look at Green Lantern. Poor fan reception and poor critical reception were enough to overcome the rumored $100 million marketing budget. No amount of advertising or hype could've saved that turkey. It had marketing going back to last year and it was released during the summer of the comic book movie. Thor, Captain America, and XMen have all managed to be successful so it can't be comic book overload. The movie just didn't do it for audiences and the box office clearly reflects that. Star Wars has a large built in fan base, but movies that are considered awful by a majority of people who watch them don't make the kind of money Revenge of the Sith made.

I'm not sure why seeing a film I would probably dislike is riding a crazy train. It was 8 bucks and two hours of my life to see how the car crash would end. Besides, I wouldn't be able to talk about the prequels had I not seen all of them.

If you dislike them, why would you want to talk about them?

I implore you to watch the Star Wars reviews at: http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/ In fact, I ask anyone that likes the prequels to watch the reviews, then come back here and still defend the films. They cover everything I'm angry about, but you'd rather not know the pitfalls of the prequels just because you can't see them. I know you won't watch them Tyrant, but maybe other people will see the light.

I hate to disappoint you but I have already watched the first 2, and most of his reviews for the Next Generation movies. They are comical and insightful, yet they are not airtight. It has been a while since I watched them so I will ahve to get back to you about what I thought the flaw in his analysis was. However, I will ask again, where did I say what I thought of the prequels? You are assuming based on comments I haven't made. You should probably give up on this whole "making assumptions based on nothing" thing.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. -The Sith CodeBricklink Store

Mister Ed wrote:Every time this thread pops up to the top of the "active posts" list, I jump in thinking that there might actually be some more "New Pictures of LEGO Star Wars 2012".

I am so silly.

Yeah, sorry for derailing. Also, sorry because this post will once again show this being an active post. That tangent about the prequels probably shouldn't be here.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. -The Sith CodeBricklink Store

Tyrant wrote:What happened to you, your home town, your state, etc, don't matter for this discussion. Like, at all. The plural of anecdote =/=evidence. Never has, never will. If you would actually read what I wrote, you would see that I conceded that the massive success of TPM owes a lot to the OT. The rest of that is guess work. I never said the movies wouldn't have been less succesful had there been no OT. I said neither of us knows what would've happened, because neither of us does. You have guesses, so do I. However, I personally don't presume to have divination abilities to see alternate timelines where events happened differently to provide me with "facts" about what would've happened. I could argue that the movies still would've been successful because they wouldn't have had to deal with fans chalk full of enough nostalgia to choke an elephant who went on to rage with the fury of a thousand suns that the movies weren't what they were owed. It's irrational to hate virtually any movie. It's a movie, let it go. But what I meant was the level of hatred. I've seen it hit levels that would lead me to believe the people involved need serious help. And who's pretending? Did I ever say what I thought of them?

I should stop using the word hate since you liken it to me sitting around stewing about the prequels all the time. I don't hate the movies, they're alright compared to movies in general. I don't expect every movie to be a masterpiece. I just don't consider the prequels to be very good for a SW movie. By hate, I meant they are not very good and sully the good Star Wars name.

I also am quite confused on your stance that the OT didn't prop these movies up for their financial success and they could possibly have been just as successful without the OT. Take the new Indiana Jones movie, a turd in the eyes of Indiana Jones fans but it still made a boatload of money BECAUSE it's Indiana Jones. The people disappointed with the recent one will still see another one if it's made, partly because it could get better, and partly because it's Indiana Jones, but it doesn't mean they loved the film. Are there other people who truly believe these movies would have made as much, even more without the Star Wars franchise existing previously?

In 1999, Phantom Menace was #1. It beat out great films such as American Beauty and Green Mile. But hey, so did The Blair Witch Project. Money doesn't necessarily mean good, and by good I mean culturally significant to film. If we're going to establish a good movie as people going to watch it, then yes, the film was great. I consider it a mindless romp, which appeals to most people.

What can't be backed up with exact numbers is my thoughts that most fans of the OT went into the prequels and were left disappointed. If you go to Amazon and read the reviews for the Star Wars OT Blu-Ray (which were combined with the OT DVD because it was at one star) you'll find 784 angry people who want nothing to do with the PT and other changes Lucas made and want the original OT in Blu-Ray. You can read almost anywhere about the hatred of Jar-Jar, or the bad love scenes, midichlorines, etc. Is it that everyone who hates these films is speaking out and everyone who loves them is keeping quiet? You can google the prequel trilogy and find so much hatred for these films it would take weeks to read it all. I'm just going by what I see, I'm not saying this because I didn't personally like the movies.

StoutFiles wrote: I also am quite confused on your stance that the OT didn't prop these movies up for their financial success and they could possibly have been just as successful without the OT.

I welcome you to point out where I said that. I said successful, not just as successful. I chose my words before writing them. I also conceded that at least part of the TPM box office was due to fans of the OT. However, TPM could've lost nearly 2/3 of it's worldwide box office and still made enough to warrant a sequel.

Take the new Indiana Jones movie, a turd in the eyes of Indiana Jones fans but it still made a boatload of money BECAUSE it's Indiana Jones. The people disappointed with the recent one will still see another one if it's made, partly because it could get better, and partly because it's Indiana Jones, but it doesn't mean they loved the film. Are there other people who truly believe these movies would have made as much, even more without the Star Wars franchise existing previously?

Did you read any of what I put in spoilers? RotS sold enough tickets domestically for 1/5 the population of the US to have gone to see it. I leave it up to whoever wishes to to argue how realistic that is, but I don't find it realistic in the least. That means there was a noticeable amount of repeat viewing. Given that, one of two things is true. Either A) a noticeable number of people actually liked, and thus rewatched, the movie or B) A noticeable number of people disliked the movie but somehow thought it was an awesome idea to go watch it more than once. I have nothing to say to anyone who believes B, they are beyond help and out of rational arguments. Is part of the success of the PT due to the OT, of course, and I never said otherwise. What I said was that we have no way of knowing what would've happened in a world with no OT. Do I really have to remind everyone how sucessful the Transformers movies have been? I do not believe the movies would've imploded in on themselves if there were no OT to compare them to. You said it yourself, they're allright for movies in general.

In 1999, Phantom Menace was #1. It beat out great films such as American Beauty and Green Mile. But hey, so did The Blair Witch Project. Money doesn't necessarily mean good, and by good I mean culturally significant to film. If we're going to establish a good movie as people going to watch it, then yes, the film was great. I consider it a mindless romp, which appeals to most people.

Based on history, American Beauty and Green Mile stood no chance of being number 1. I have also not equated money to quality, only stated that to make that much there were a noticeable number of people who liked the movies and watched them again. Liking a movie =/= it being good. I absolutely love Big Trouble in Little China, but it isn't a "good" movie.

What can't be backed up with exact numbers is my thoughts that most fans of the OT went into the prequels and were left disappointed. If you go to Amazon and read the reviews for the Star Wars OT Blu-Ray (which were combined with the OT DVD because it was at one star) you'll find 784 angry people who want nothing to do with the PT and other changes Lucas made and want the original OT in Blu-Ray. You can read almost anywhere about the hatred of Jar-Jar, or the bad love scenes, midichlorines, etc. Is it that everyone who hates these films is speaking out and everyone who loves them is keeping quiet? You can google the prequel trilogy and find so much hatred for these films it would take weeks to read it all. I'm just going by what I see, I'm not saying this because I didn't personally like the movies.

In the restaraunt industry I have heard that 1 disappointed customer can cost you 10 other customers. Why is that? Because when people don't like something they tell everyone about it. Especially restaraunts and movies. This is considerably amplified by the internet due to being able to post with relative secrecy and the gang mentality. Find anywhere where someone claims they like the PT and you will find an angry mob calling them a tasteless idiot, or worse. Which was part of my point in what I posed that I linked to. If people went to these movies and hated them, why didn't they stop their friends from going? Again and again.

Now, can we get back to the pics or shall we continue derailing on a logic defying tangent?

Nice new pics, by the way.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. -The Sith CodeBricklink Store

Tyrant wrote:Now, can we get back to the pics or shall we continue derailing on a logic defying tangent?

Nope...pics would be good. Let's focus on those, shall we? I don't want to discourage a lively discussion, but what I've seen here so far seems like the typical disagreements between the equally adamant schools of thought on prequel validity. No need to rehash that.

That's for reminding me of that site. I watched the review of epIII yesterday. Other than some of his offtopic and somewhat offensive side humour, it's more pure gold. He managed to bring up even more holes and stupidity in EpIII than I managed to notice on my own. (And I thought I'd found a lot wrong already).

I would agree with you. That those PT films are simply undefendable when the flaws and weaknesses are exposed such as in plinkett's reviews.

Draykov wrote:Nope...pics would be good. Let's focus on those, shall we? I don't want to discourage a lively discussion, but what I've seen here so far seems like the typical disagreements between the equally adamant schools of thought on prequel validity. No need to rehash that.

I wouldn't say 'typical'. Most of the OT-PT arguments I've seen center around the content of the Prequels, while this discussion appears to focus on the less oft-mentioned issue of how well they were/are actually received as opposed to what a bunch of flaming netizen fanboys think.

It's an interesting discussion, and I would enjoy seeing it continue, though that doesn't excuse the fact that it's off-topic. In a new thread, maybe...

Is it just me, or do a lot of Star Wars sets just seem like God-awful excuses to put in some costly, beefed-up minifigures these days? Looking especially at the Geonosian Cannon and Droid Escape here. The cannon is hideous and the droid set only really works at its original price point. $20 for an escape pod and a few figures is ridiculous.

I guess what I'm getting at here is a tired, beating-a-dead-horse complaint, but the only sets that seem to have had any thought put into them past the minifigure stage are those that cost $50+. Is it too much to ask for some quality sub-$20 sets again? Stuff like the recent Landspeeder could easily have fit this criteria if LEGO hadn't felt the need to include the entire cast of A New Hope in the box...

I saw a picture of an American catalogue with the 2012 sets on Eurobricks:Most of those prices are what I had expected, but $55 for the TIE Fighter is absolutely insane! I had expected it to be expensive, but not that expensive! The Planets sets aren't quite as bad as I had feared, though. The Jedi Starfighter is also cheaper than I expected it would be, but I still won't get it, since I have no interest in the set itself (only the minifigures).

X-Wing's not a terrible value. Not sure about the Y-Wing due to the glare on the catalog. The rest... drop them by 25% and maybe I'd consider getting them. That certainly helps me save money in 2012. Awesome sets, but definitely out of my budget.

That's almost assuredly 358 pieces on the Y-wing, for $50. Heck, considering that the T-6 Jedi Shuttle went for $60 and weighed in at 368 parts, the Y-wing may even only be 258. I am digging all of these new models, but no way am I paying MSRP for them. Gonna have to hold out for some deals - which, fortunately, seem to be more frequent these days.