All of you have important question's to ask; some I will address. Unfortunately I have to go to work and will not get off til late and have to hit it again early in the morning. I will give answer's when I return and have more time to contemplate everyone's question's.
peace

The idea that man has an immortal spiritual nature, or at least an ethereal body which survives death, has been expressed over the centuries in many ways. An important corollary to this idea is the existence of a series of planes or worlds originating in spiritual heights and increasing in materiality until our earth, the lowest and most concrete, is reached. Furthermore, man has a series of subtle bodies corresponding to those planes: a physical body on the physical plane, a mental body on the mental plane, and so on.

Consciousness survives death and undergoes experiences in appropriate after-death states which are the effects of karma made during life. In order to prepare for these after-death experiences without dying, a process of training was developed known as initiation. In the ancient world it apparently took the form of a "drama" wherein the candidate for initiation into the Mysteries was led through a series of encounters of psychic and spiritual dimension. Stories and drawings of people being led through the underworld were also scripts for initiation ceremonies.

Initiation is a kind of temporary 'death' of all the lower man, 'a sleep' of the lower psychological nature, and a magical awakening to an intense awareness of the higher psychological part upon which is then radiating the inner light of the man's monadic consciousness.
Initiation is thus a means whereby one may become aware of the inner planes or worlds into which we enter nightly in sleep and periodically in death. In brief, the process of initiation, while otherwise similar to death and sleep, is undergone in full consciousness and with memory intact.

Perhaps one of the best known portrayals of the after-death states is that of the ancient Egyptians. They believed that everyone was judged in a place called Amentet. In the Papyrus of Ani, for example, the scribe Ani in his ethereal body (ka) is shown entering Amentet. Here the jackal-headed god, Anubis, son of Osiris and Nephthys, operates a large balance in which Ani's heart, symbolizing his past thoughts and deeds, is being weighed against a feather. This evaluation must occur before he can receive a "divine heart" in the higher planes. The feather is symbolic of justice and truth personified by the goddess Maat, who corresponds to karma in its universal (macrocosmic) and individual (microcosmic) aspects, both of which are implicit in the term maati. The heart (ab) stands for the personality which links the emotions of the ka with the thoughts of the ba (soul or higher mind). (The ka corresponds to kama-rupa, the desire-body of theosophy; the ab to kama-manas, the desire-mind; and the ba to buddhi-manas, the illumined mind.)

Above Ani and the balance is the Company of the Gods, presiding over this evaluation, while on the other side of the balance the ibis-headed Thoth records the result. Thoth is the god of wisdom, consort of the goddess Maat. Behind Thoth waits an unusual creature called Amemit, which seeks to gain "forceful mastery" over the deceased. Amemit has the forepart of a crocodile, the midsection of a lion, and the hindquarters of a hippopotamus. His name can mean "the hunger of the dead," imbodiment of insatiable desire. This monster of his own fears and passions the deceased must face and conquer or it will surely conquer him.

This scene depicts not only the experiences encountered in Amentet by the deceased scribe Ani, but also symbolizes initiation. In this ritual a candidate must temporarily leave his physical body (khat) and travel in his ethereal body (ka) to Amentet, where he undergoes the evaluation process. If he prevails, he becomes one with Osiris, presiding god of the cycle of rebirth. (This function is implicit in the meaning of the term asar from which the name Osiris is derived.) Like Osiris, Ani thus becomes consciously reborn.

The legend near Ani reads:

To be spoken by the Osirified Ani: / My heart (ab), my mother, my heart, my mother, / My outer-heart (hati-ab) that I have transformed; / Rise up for me in the form of potentiality. / Return to me before the divine Chiefs (Tchatchau).* / Cause no burden for me in the presence of the Guardian of the Balance (Anubis). / You are my ka which dwells in my body and joins in strength my body-components. / May you come forth to the place of beauty and harmony without impediment, in my name of Shenit,** / That I may maintain speech with the god of beauty and harmony. / May you hear this. -- Pert em Hru, ch. XXXB (literally "Coming Forth into the Day; the title Book of the Dead was given to this collection of papyri by modern Egyptologists).
*E. A. Wallis Budge translation: "May there not be resistance to me in the judgment. / May there not be repulse to me by the Divine Chiefs." The Egyptian Book of the Dead, p. 11.
**The Shenit were special ministers to the king. According to Budge they were the "officials of the Court of Osiris" (Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, vol. 1, p. 333). However, a deeper meaning can be obtained from the glyphs, because shenit contains shen (cycle) and ser (prince or great man). The hieroglyph therefore can mean "cycles of the prince," where prince, like mother, is a glyph for the reincarnating ego.
The judgment in Amentet is a prerequisite to going further. Only one whose heart is as pure as truth (maat) can go beyond this stage into higher planes or worlds.

Thoth, the Recorder, stands opposite Ani, writing down the outcome. The caption near him says:

To be spoken by Thoth, Opener of Truth, / to the Great Company of the Gods who are in the presence of Osiris: / May you hear these words that exist in truth / concerning the Evaluation according to the heart of the Osirified. / His soul (ba) rose up in the form of potentiality (testimony) for / him at the time of Truth on the Great Balance. / He was found not to have done any evil. / No unfulfilled desires nourished him. / His Source of Light has not been split up. / He has not been affected by the transition. / He will be subject to you until he can exist as a Master of the Earth.
The heart (ab) of the candidate is found to be pure and the karmic residue of his life can rise beyond his ka to his ba. Had impurities been present, the karmic residue (potentialities for further experience) would have been too heavy to rise and would have tipped the scales in the wrong direction.

Upon the balance sits the dog-headed Ape of Thoth. Because Thoth is divine intelligence, his "ape," the distorted image of divine intelligence, is human intelligence, the logic and reason of the human mind.

The Company of the Gods then make the following declaration in unison to Thoth:

That which has come forth from your mouth is true concerning the potentiality of the Osirified Scribe Ani, who is truth-speaking. / He has done no evil. / He has made no infringement against us. / He has not allowed Amemit forcefully to master him here. / May he be nourished and allowed to come forth into the presence of Osiris in the realm established in Sekhet-Hetepet ("Fields of Peace and Nourishment") appropriate for the followers of Horus.
This pronouncement by the Company of the Gods allows the candidate to advance to the next stage, the confrontation with Osiris, Lord of Amentet. The god Horus, son of Osiris and Isis, now leads Ani to the throne of Osiris. Horus addresses his father and says that the weighing was done in accordance with divine law and the candidate found to be without evil. At this point the Osirified Ani must speak in his own defense. He says to Osiris:

May you allow me into your presence, O Divine Lord of Amentet. No defects are in my body nor in my speech [to prevent me from] maintaining full consciousness. / None! None! / May there be given to me an existence like that of the Favored Ones who dwell with you, O Osiris. / May I be greatly favored by the beautiful god, and loved by the Lord of the Two Lands.
To summarize, the ancient Egyptians believed in reincarnation (Osiris) and karma (Maat), and in an after-death judgment (Anubis) of one's life record (Thoth), followed by the assimilation of the personality (ab). They held that when consciousness left the body (khat) at death in a subtle body (ka), came face to face with its own unfulfilled desires (Amemit). It was their contention that the after-death state (Neter-khert) was characterized by powerful forces of dissociation (Set) and incoherence (Apep), counterbalanced by complementary forces of cohesion and creativity (Isis). If left alone, most people would succumb to these forces and lose consciousness. The entire after-death state, completely karmic in nature, would thereby be passed in a dreamlike swoon and rebirth would take place with the past life totally forgotten. But they also believed that the deceased need not undergo these processes alone. If worthy, he could be aided by telepathic communion with a Kher-heb priest still on earth, who reminds him of his true spiritual essence (Horus), of that higher counterpart of himself that does not die (Osiris) and is not subject to the awesome forces that now surround him (Nephthys). The objective, which is fully attainable only by the most advanced, is to maintain continuity of consciousness throughout the process and to be reborn with clear memory of the past life. One who successfully achieved this was called a "Master of the Earth."

Although few of us today worry about meeting deities or monsters, perhaps the teachings of the Egyptians are not as outdated as they may first appear. Ancient tradition holds that sleep and death are brothers. If so, then the meeting with Amemit has its counterpart in the phenomenon of the nightmare, and the weighing process of Anubis has its counterpart in the nightly workings of the human conscience, where Thoth assumes the form of our memory and the Ape of Thoth appears as our rationalizations.

According to the Egyptians, the only way to pass safely through these awesome processes is to prepare oneself for them during life. Initiations such as that described for Ani were an essential part of Egyptian culture and the insights gained contributed to the longevity of that nation. These insights were not mere accumulations of external data, but rather the bringing forth into conscious expression of the aspirant's divine potential. Initiation is not to be undertaken lightly, for it requires long years, usually lifetimes, of preparation before one can successfully undergo even the preliminary trials. Only he who is totally without soul-defect can be Osirified. It is the sublime goal of the candidate one day to become a Master of the Earth so that he in turn may help others join the Company of the Gods.

Hi Bel,
We all have lives offline:) take your time in getting back to us on this.
I am sorry but reading your piece i still don't get where this has much of anything to do with Egyptian reincarnation. And after reading the Payprus of Ani i find even less... Egyptian reincarnation is a topic you brought up, i want to discuss this; not initiation rites of something i don't belong to, and have no desire to belong to.

The below website is a wonderful site that has large parts of the Papyrus of Ani written. I include some of it, especially those parts that to me refute your reincarnation claims that it contains.
PS when you get back, i would really like to know where the temples of reincarnation exist in AE.

A hymn of praise to Ra when he rises in the eastern part of heaven BEHOLD, the Osiris Ani, the scribe of the holy offerings of all the gods, says: ...Be at peace with me. Let me gaze on your beauties.Let me journey above the earth. Let me smite the ass.Let me slit asunder the serpent-fiend Sebau.Let me destroy Aepep at the moment of his greatest power. Let me behold the Abtu fish at his season, and the Ant fish with the Ant boat as it pilots it in its lake.Let me behold Horus when he is in charge of the rudder [of the boat of Ra], with Thoth and the goddess Maat on each side of him. Let me lay hold of the tow-rope of the Sektet boat, and the rope at the stern of the Matett boat. Let Ra grant to me a view of the disk (the sun), and a sight of Ah (the moon) unfailingly each day. Let my Ba-soul come forth to walk about here and there and wherever it pleases.Let my name be called out, let it be found inscribed on the tablet which records the names of those who are to receive offerings. Let meals from the sepulchral offerings be given to me in the presence [of Osiris], as to those who are in the following of Horus. Let there be prepared for me a seat in the boat of the sun on the daywheron the god sails. Let me be received in the presence of Osiris in the land of truth-speaking - the Ka of Osiris Ani.

Hymn to Osiris Un-NeferA Hymn of Praise to Osiris Un-Nefer, the great god who dwells in Abtu, the king of eternity, the lord of everlastingness, who traverses millions of years in his existence.... Grant to me glory in heaven, and power on earth, and truth-speaking in the divine underworld, and [the power to] sail down the river to Tetu in theform of a living Ba-soul, and [the power to] sail up the river to Abydos in the form of a Benu bird, and [the power to] pass in through and to pass out from,without obstruction, the doors of the lords of the tuat (other world). Let there be given to me bread-cakes in the house of refreshing, and sepulchral offerings of cakes and ale, and propitiatory offerings in Anu, and apermanent homestead in Sekhet-Aaru, with wheat and barley in it - to the double of the Osiris, the scribe Ani.

Coming forth by dayHERE BEGIN the chapters of coming forth by day, and the songs of praising and glorifying which are to be recited for "coming forth" and for entering into Khert-neter, and the spells which are to be said in beautiful Amentet. They shall be recited on the day of the funeral, entering in after coming forth.

The Osiris Ani, the Osiris the scribe Ani says:... Hail, you who make perfect souls to enter into the house of Osiris, make the well-instructed soul of the Osiris the scribe Ani, whose word is true, to enter in and to be with you in the house of Osiris.Let him hear even as you hear; let him have sight even as you have sight; let him stand up even as you stand up; let him take his seat even as you take your seats. Hail, you who give cakes and ale to perfect souls in the house of Osiris, give cakes and ale twice each day (in the morning and in the evening) to the soul of the Osiris Ani, whose word is true before the gods, the Lords of Abydos, and whose word is true with you. RUBRIC: If this text be known [by the deceased] on earth or if he causs it to be done in writing on [his] coffin, then will he be able to come forth on any day he pleases, and to enter into his habitation unrepulsed.Cakes and ale and joints of meat from those which are on the altar of Ra shall be given to him, and his homestead shall be among the fields of the Field of Reeds (Sekhet-Aaru), and wheat and barley shall be given to him in it, and he shall flourish there even as he flourished on earth.

APPENDIX: (From the Papyrus of Nekhtu-Amen, ed. Naville, I, 5)Making the sahu (spirit-body) to enter the tuat (other world) on the day of the funeral, when the following words are to be said:HOMAGE to you, you who live in the Holy Hill (Set-Tchesert) of Amentet! the Osiris, the royal scribe, Nekhtu-Amen, whose word is true, knows you,he knows your name. Deliver him from the worms which are in Ra-stau, which live on the bodies of men and women, and feed on their blood, for Osiris, the favouredservant of the god of his city, the royal scribe Nekhtu-Amen, knows you, and he knows your names.Let the order for his protection be the first command of Osiris, the Lord to the Uttermost Limit, who keeps his body hidden....RUBRIC: The words of this chapter shall be said after [the deceased] is laid to rest in Amentet; by means of them the region Tenn-t shall be contented with her lord. And the Osiris, the royal scribe, Nekhtu-Amen, whose word is truth, shall come forth, and he shall embark in the boat of Ra, and [his] body on its bier shall be counted up, and he shall be established in the tuat (other world).

Giving a mouth to the Osiris......RUBRIC: If this chapter be known by the Osiris the scribe Ani, on earth, [or if it be done] in writing on [his] coffin, he shall come forth by day in every form which he pleases, and he shall enter into [his] abode, and shall not be repulsed. And cakes, and ale, and joints of meat [from those which are on] the altar of Osiris shall be given to him; and he shall enter in peace into Sekhet-Aaru, conformably to the decree of the dweller in Busiris. Wheat and barley (dhura) shall be given to him in it, and he shall flourish there just as he did on earth; and he shall do whatsoever it pleases him to do, even as do the company of the gods who are in the tuat, regularly and continually, for millions.

Texts relating to the weighing of the heart of Ani...THE SPEECH OF THE GODS:- The great company of the gods say to Thoth who dwells in Khemenu: That which comes forth from your mouth shall be declared true.The Osiris the scribe Ani, whose word is true, is holy and righteous. He has not committed any sin, and he has done no evil against us. The devourer Am-mit shall not be permitted to prevail over him. Meat offerings and admittance into the presence of the god Osiris shall begranted to him, together with an abiding habitation in the Field of Offerings (Sekhet-hetepet), as to the followers of Horus.

THE SPEECH OF HORUS TO OSIRIS IN INTRODUCING ANI TO HIM:- Horus, the son of Isis, says: I have come to you, Un-Nefer, and I have brought to you the Osiris Ani. His heart is righteous, and it has come forth from the balance; it has not sinned against any god or any goddess. Thoth has weighed it according to the decree pronounced to him by the company of the gods, and it is most true and righteous.Grant that cakes and ale may be given to him, and let him appear in the presence of the god Osiris, and let him be like to the Followers of Horus forever and ever. Here begin the praises and glorifyings of coming out from and of going into the glorious Khert-Neter, which is in the beautiful Amentet, of coming forth by day in all the forms of existence which it may please the deceased to take, of playing at draughts, of sitting in the Seh hall, and of appearing as a living soul: The Osiris the scribe Ani says after he has arrived in his haven of rest - now it is good for [a man] to recite [this work while he is] on earth, for then all the words of Tem come to pass -

The Seven Arits......RUBRIC: If [these] words be recited by the spirit when he shall come to the Seven Arits, and as he enters the doors, he shall neither be turned back nor repulsed before Osiris, and he shall be made to have his being among the blessed spirits, and to have dominion among the ancestral followers of Osiris. If these things be done for any spirit he shall have his being in that placelike a lord of eternity in one body with Osiris, and at no place shall any being contend against him.

Throughout, the Book of the Dead, the dead person is called the Osiris followed by his name. The big thing is to find peace, food, and drink in the afterlife. Living there pretty much as one lived on earth.

By the way i found out a bit about Nebseni, or should i say the Osiris Nebseni (who i discovered was an early 18th Dynasty man that was buried near Memphis. That also left a Book of the Dead for his afterlife survival)

bel,The Omm Sety book is by Jonathan Cott. It is older, published in 1987 shortly after Omm Sety's death. As I said in the above, it is a very interesting study of her life. Before I read it, I had heard of her, but dismissed it as just the ramblings of questioning material. But as I said, she was quite an out-standing lady, and things she said about ancient Egypt have been shown to be true. For instance, she was very positive that there was, at one time, a garden around Seti I's Abydos temple. All Eghyptologist discounted that, saying that the temple was not a site that would have supported any garden. But then, when a sewer-line was being laid, and exactly in the spot where she had said were beautiful trees, an extensive root system was discovered, along with channels to carry water to the sites! (several root systems were uncovered.)All of the information in the book is very interesting.

Going to the library seeking truth and will get back w/you in reference to above mentioned book. Looking forward to expansion!

Thank's for the direction to Ancient Egypt. I picked up the book yesterday at the library w/several other's and am current;y reading. It sound's from the start as an actual occurence for this woman (Dorothy Eady) but it also sound's a bit like fiction which it what it would have to be (as putting into word's is left to interpretation). In so saying, it is w/the book of the Dead.
Will follow case in point in next post.

It is evident that from the most remote period of Antiquity, Egyptian burial rites included the recitation of a number of spells intended to assist the dead in their life beyond the grave, to preserve them against the attacks of demons, and to secure them full enjoyment of the good things that the gods lived upon. These spells and others were ultimately inscribed about the tomb, with the idea that the dead himself would thus be enabled to recite the formulae at need. Such inscriptions of immense length, have been found in Pryamids of the Kings of the VIth Dynasty, perhaps over 3,000 years BC (Professor Flinders Petrie has shown from the large slab of Unas in the Museum of Cairo, that Pepys, the middle King of the VIth Dynasty, reigned about 3,400 years BC and the same or similar texts were inscribed on coffins, as well as on the walls of the tombs throughout the Middle Kingdom (Dynasties XI to XIII) apparently to be consulted by the deceased in case of difficulty.
The "Book of the Dead" must not be confounded with the Funeral Ritual: but in it, as throughout the funeral ceremonial, the deceased is called "The Osiris", and is generally by appeal to the analogy of Osiris, and by assimilation to him, that the dead were supposed to attain Everlasting Bliss. The Funeral Ritual was intended as a re-enactment, for the benefit of the deceased, of what had been done to re-constitute and re-animate the Body of the God-king Osiris, after he had suffered death and dismemberment at the hands of the wicked brother Set. According to the Osirian Legend, Isis, wife and sister of Osiris, sought and found the scattered remains of her husband; and restored his body to unity and life by means of her powerful magic with the help of her sister Nephthys, of her son Horus, and of other Deities, including Anubis, the God of Embalment. Thenceforth Osiris-un-nefer, "the good being" reigned beneficiently over the Egyptian dead, as he had in life reigned over the living. Thus to be identified with Osiris after death was the great hope of every pious Egyptian. And so in this Papyrus, Ani is always called "Osiris-Ani".
Considering Reincarnation
Traditional Christian theology still does not make room for the concept of reincarnation. Some of the early church fathers accepted it, among them Origen, who believed that the soul exists before birth. That concept makes reincarnation a natural consequence. The decision to outlaw the belief and persecute those who held to it was political, based not on a knowledge of the truth but on a desire to secure the power of the hierarchy. Because, if we have unlimited opportunities to evolve spiritually, the church authorities cannot threaten us with hellfire if we do not fulfill their demands in this single life.

As a result, most Christians believe that we are created at conception and that when we die we become eternal. But eternity cannot be eternal on one end and finite on the other. If something has a beginning, it must have an end. If we believe that we will live forever, it must follow that we have always existed, as Origen taught.

If we have always existed, what have we been up to all this time? We know that this present incarnation is important in our spiritual growth. But how can a single life on earth be sufficient to prepare us to meet the transcendent God face to face? If one incarnation is helpful in our spiritual evolution, why wouldn't two be twice as useful? What is it that makes us resist the idea of multiple human lives when a majority of the world's religions include a belief in reincarnation?

People who are afraid of the concept try to make it appear ridiculous by suggesting that if we are evil in this present life we will return as an ant or a skunk. This distortion needs to be seen for what it is, a attempt to avoid a greater truth: We are part of God. We have always existed. We will always exist. Our time in eternity is an evolutionary process through which we are to become more like God. Jesus told us that if we followed him, we would do greater things than he did! When do we get the opportunity for this spiritual blossoming if not through an enormous series of positive and negative experiences? This result cannot be achieved in a single lifetime. If we are part of God, our present life is no more than a semester-long class to learn a certain skill. And there is more than one course in our spiritual curriculum.

There are myriad questions not answered by our traditional theology. When do we get to use the wisdom we have accumulated in this life? Where do we get to correct our mistakes? If we can correct them in heaven, why did we come here in the first place? Why should God punish people eternally for temporal sins: do we punish our children for the next fifty years for a penny stolen in the first grade? What happens to mentally challenged people and those who cannot comprehend the laws of God? If God makes exceptions for them, what other exceptions does he make? How do we account for the vast discrepancies in the lives of people, some living in poverty, some in wealth? At what point does God even out these unfair distinctions?

I invite you to a larger view of your life which helps to answer these questions: the possibility that you have always existed and will always exist as an eternal part of God. This current life is one of many experiences which you have generated for yourself, as you design your own spiritual evolution.

Such inscriptions of immense length, have been found in Pryamids of the Kings of the VIth Dynasty, perhaps over 3,000 years BC (Professor Flinders Petrie has shown from the large slab of Unas in the Museum of Cairo, that Pepys, the middle King of the VIth Dynasty, reigned about 3,400 years BC and the same or similar texts were inscribed on coffins, as well as on the walls of the tombs throughout the Middle Kingdom (Dynasties XI to XIII) apparently to be consulted by the deceased in case of difficulty.

Hi, Bel
i hope you enjoy your new readings. As for this last post i am going to cut it up a bit, the better for me to respond to. Since you do not include your souce for it. i am going to guess it is from The Splendor That Was Egypt by Margaret A. Murray. I assume it is her because of the mention of reincarnation in ancient Egypt appears to be limited to her work. She was a most daring woman. At a time when women where very limited in their career choices. i will address more on her in another post this post i want to address the dates of reign for the above mentioned Pharaohs. They are a bit off from today's accepted dates... again suggesting, to me that it is from the work of Dr. Murray (1863-1963).

From the Handbook to Life in Ancient Egypt, by Rosalie David, pg 9.
Unas; 5th Dynasty c. 2375- 2345 B.C.E. The Pepian Kings of the 6th Dynasty from c. 2322- 2175 B.C.E.

From The Cultural Atlas of the World Ancient Egypt, by John Baines and Jaromir Malek, pg 36. 5th Dynasty in which Unas ruled dates from c. 2465-2323. The Pepian Kings rule from c. 2289- 2152 B.C.E.

Thenceforth Osiris-un-nefer, "the good being" reigned beneficiently over the Egyptian dead, as he had in life reigned over the living. Thus to be identified with Osiris after death was the great hope of every pious Egyptian. And so in this Papyrus, Ani is always called "Osiris-Ani".

Interesting, it was the hope of every pious Egyptian after death to be identified with the "good being" Osiris reigning over the dead as he had reigned over the living.

Considering Reincarnation Traditional Christian theology still does not make room for the concept of reincarnation.... The decision to outlaw the belief and persecute those who held to it was political, based not on a knowledge of the truth but on a desire to secure the power of the hierarchy. Because, if we have unlimited opportunities to evolve spiritually, the church authorities cannot threaten us with hellfire if we do not fulfill their demands in this single life.

Whose personal opinion is this? Your's, Dr. Margaret A. Murray? Since you do not say i decided to do some reading up on this to see how it squared up with other opinions. See rest of post. For even more information visit the website and read the entire history of "Christian Reincarnation". Furthermore after reading the below, i disagree with whose ever opinion is expressed in the quote. It is apparent to me that the Early Church founders had some good points in refuting Origen.

During the period from A.D. 250 to 553 controversy raged, at least intermittently, around the name of Origen, and from this controversy emerged the major objections that orthodox Christianity raises against reincarnation. Origen of Alexandria, one of Christianity's greatest systematic theologians, was a believer in reincarnation.

Origen was a person devoted to scriptural authority, a scourge to the enemies of the church, and a martyr for the faith. He was the spiritual teacher of a large and grateful posterity and yet his teachings were declared heresy in 553. The debates and controversies that flared up around his teachings are in fact the record of reincarnation in the church.

The case against Origen grew by fits and starts from about A.D. 300 (fifty years after his death) until 553. There were writers of great eminence among his critics as well as some rather obscure ecclesiasts. They included Methodius of Olympus, Eppiphanius of Salamis, Theophilus, Bishop of Jerusalem, Jerome, and the Emperor Justinian. The first of these, Methodius of Olympus, was a bishop in Greece and died a martyr's death in the year 311. He and Peter of Alexandria, whose works are almost entirely lost, represent the first wave of anti-Origenism. They were concerned chiefly with the preexistence of souls and Origen's notions about the resurrection of the dead. Another more powerful current against Origenism arose about a century later. The principals were Ephiphanius of Salamis, Theophilus of Alexandria, and Jerome.

From about 395 to 403 Origen became the subject of heated debate throughout Christendom. These three ecclesiats applied much energy and thought in search of questionable doctrine in Origen. Again the controversy flared up around 535, and in the wake of this the Emperor Justinian composed a tract against Origen in 543, proposing nine anathemas against "On First Principles", Origen's chief theological work. Origen was finally officially condemned in the Second Council of Constantinople in 553, when fifteen anathemas were charged against him.

The critics of Origen attacked him on individual points, and thus did not create a systematic theology to oppose him. Nonetheless, one can glean from their writings five major points that Christianity has raised against reincarnation:

(1) It seems to minimize Christian salvation.
(2) It is in conflict with the resurrection of the body.
(3) It creates an unnatural separation between body and soul.
(4) It is built on a much too speculative use of Christian scriptures.
(5) There is no recollection of previous lives.

Any discussion of these points will be greatly clarified by a preliminary look at Origen's system. Although it is of course impossible to do justice in a few pages to a thinker as subtle and profound as Origen, some of the distinctive aspects of his thought can be summarized.

| Reincarnation index | Next |

Christian Reincarnation Index
# The controversy erupts
# The doctrine of reincarnation
# Scriptural support for reincarnation
# More scriptural support for reincarnation
# The mystery of God in humanity
# The Arian controversy
# The Council of Nicea
# The Fifth General Council
# Conclusion
# Proof of reincarnation?

If we have always existed, what have we been up to all this time? We know that this present incarnation is important in our spiritual growth. But how can a single life on earth be sufficient to prepare us to meet the transcendent God face to face? If one incarnation is helpful in our spiritual evolution, why wouldn't two be twice as useful? What is it that makes us resist the idea of multiple human lives when a majority of the world's religions include a belief in reincarnation?

Hey, Bel
Someone has asked some decent questions. i have too in earlier posts i have yet to recieve an answer to a one of them. Except those that i have found in my own reading. While i am no christian, i do know something of christian beliefs.
1. Christianity teaches that humans exist with God, from the beginning. I guess i have been waiting since creation to be born in this wonderful day and age. 2. Christianity teaches that in accepting Jesus Christ as savior, we become justified before God and become one in Him. Thus no need for us "sufficient to prepare us to meet the transcendent God face to face". He does it for us.
3. Because those who can recall their past lives, are the minority thusly, limiting the benefit of past lives in the current life. As christians tend to believe that it is God, alone that makes one justified, or righteous before him one lifetime is all that is needed.
4. A majority of world religions include a belief in reincarnation? Plaese list those religions that do. Judism, Islam, Christianity, Shinto, Native American of both North and South America, Confucian religions do not include reincarnation. The ancient pagans Roman, Greek, Mesopotamian,did not. Such a belief so far is lacking in the ancient religions of the Americas as well. And outside of Dr. Margaret A. Murray i can find no Egyptianologist that believes the ancient Egyptians believed in reincarnation. To me it is understandable why, she came to this belief (see post below).

With Bel's posts i became interested in Dr. Margaret A. Murray went and did a web search on her. i found some very interesting information on this remarkable woman. i enclose a bit of the most complete biography i found on her. She was born in Calcutta, India of English parents in 1863. To me at least this helps me to understand why she looks for and finds reincarnation in Ancient Egypt. It explains to me why she is the only one that does. I also found some information on her book that Bel has quoted from before, interesting.

http://www.controverscial.com/Margaret% ... Murray.htmMargaret Alice Murray (1863-1963)
Written and compiled by George Knowles.
Margaret Murray was an eminent and respected Anthropologist, Archaeologist and Egyptologist. In the 1920's she began writing about her theories on the origins and organization of witchcraft predating Christianity. At the time many of her colleagues ridiculed her work, yet today some of her books have gained classical status. These include: Witchcraft, The Witch-Cult in Western Europe - published in 1921, The God of the Witches - published in 1933 and the Divine King in England – published 1954.

Margaret Murray was born in Calcutta on the 13th July 1863. She was educated at University Collage in London and later named a fellow of the same collage. In her early days at college she studied anthropology and was a pioneer “Suffragette” speaking out on women’s rights. She took part in many archaeological excavations working with the likes of Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie, the renowned Egyptologist. They worked together in such places as Egypt, South Palestine and England. Under his guidance she later specialised in Egyptology and was made a junior lecturer of the college.
(Snip)
Undaunted Margaret continued to study witchcraft as a sideline to her main career. She was a shrewd and critical scholar and her work in Archaeology and Egyptology did not go unrecognised. The University Collage in London made her Assistant Professor of Egyptology in 1924, a post she held until her retirement in 1935.

People who are afraid of the concept try to make it appear ridiculous by suggesting that if we are evil in this present life we will return as an ant or a skunk. This distortion needs to be seen for what it is, a attempt to avoid a greater truth: We are part of God. We have always existed. We will always exist. Our time in eternity is an evolutionary process through which we are to become more like God. Jesus told us that if we followed him, we would do greater things than he did! When do we get the opportunity for this spiritual blossoming if not through an enormous series of positive and negative experiences? This result cannot be achieved in a single lifetime. If we are part of God, our present life is no more than a semester-long class to learn a certain skill. And there is more than one course in our spiritual curriculum.

Admittedly, many who do fear or lack understanding of reincarnation. Do tend to jest that if one is evil in the current life one is doomed to be reborn as an ant or perhaps even a skunk. But this, i contend isn't the fault of folks that fear, or lack understanding but the fault of those religions that accept reincarnation. They teach that if one is good one is reborn into a higher state, if one is not good one will be reborn into a lower state.

Christianity does teach the "great truth" that we are part of God, that we have always existed in Him, we will always exist in Him. For christians this knowledge comes when they accept Jesus Christ and according to that teaching nothing can seperate them from God. Christianity does not require an eternality to accomplish this but one lifetime.

"Jesus told us that if we followed him, we would do greater things than he did! When do we get the opportunity for this spiritual blossoming ..." Mother Tereasa of India got to do so in her single lifetime. Christ Jesus, who was her Lord, while he lived never brought a pagan government to a standstill for even a day. But Mother Tereasa did, on the day she was buried the government of India stopped business that day, out of respect for her. If christianity is lacking in even more such demonstrations of faith... perhaps it is the fault of those that claim the status of Christ follower and not Christianity itself.

There are myriad questions not answered by our traditional theology. When do we get to use the wisdom we have accumulated in this life? Where do we get to correct our mistakes? If we can correct them in heaven, why did we come here in the first place? Why should God punish people eternally for temporal sins: do we punish our children for the next fifty years for a penny stolen in the first grade? What happens to mentally challenged people and those who cannot comprehend the laws of God? If God makes exceptions for them, what other exceptions does he make? How do we account for the vast discrepancies in the lives of people, some living in poverty, some in wealth? At what point does God even out these unfair distinctions?

1) While we live, after we learn wisdom. i know of no one that says i have learned wisdom and i am going to save it for my next life.
2) Christian scripture says if you have harmed your brother go to him and be restored to him. It also mentions being quick about it. There is an old saying about if not succeeding the first time, try, try again. It doesn't say wait for the next lifetime and hope you get it right then.
3) My understanding of christian heaven is there is no righting of wrongs there. It is a place where the faithful enter into rest in God for eternity.
4) We come to Earth to enjoy the beauty and glory of God's creation. To given him thanks and praise in all things for all have fallen short of the glory of God.
5) Why should i accept a poorly written paper of my own creation instead of destroying it? The same about God why should he have to accept a poor creation of his own making? I don't know any parent that punishes their child for stealing a penny in 1st grade. (however i will point out that the belief of reincarnation does support that belief. Steal a penny in 1st grade and you might come back as an untouchable or worst if you don't learn that it is wrong to steal) i do know that many parents make seemingly impossible rationalities for grave errors on their childs behalf. Is God less loving than human parents? Christianity teaches that if one seeks God's forgiveness, He is faithful to give it, and why not He made the imperfect one. Must, He forgive those that know they have done wrong and refused to seek forgiveness?
6) Well, Christianity teaches that all are born with the inate understanding of God's laws... and that they are evident in the natural world but unrepentant sin blinds one to this truism. It also teaches that some folks without benefit of proper birth, right nationality, religious upbringings are more understanding about the nature and laws of God. Than those that have had all the benefit of being educated in them from birth. Then there is the response Christ gives to those asking him, why was the blind man born blind? His answer was ... "so that the Glory of God may be made manifest". God's extending his forgiveness to those less than perfect and less able makes manifest his true power and glory.
7) For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, so that whoever believes on him will not perish, but have eternal life. This covers a lot of exceptions.
8 ) How do we account for the fact that some folks do their homework, others cheat but get it done, and still others just don't do it at all? Answer that question and i bet you obtain an understanding of why some folks are rich and others are poor. Communism is a belief that teaches the riches of the rich should be redistribuated to the poor so that all share equally in the resouces. In Russia, Cuba, China this didn't happen, what did happen was a shunted ecomony where no one flouished except some corrupt officals at the top of the power pyramid.
9) God evens it all out in heaven, where there is no giving and taking in marriage and all become justified before God, by his grace.

Last edited by Sekhmet on Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot post attachments in this forum