What Have You Done with My Daughter?

My first experience with anything Bill Gothard was the Eternal Vision program. My then 18-year-old daughter, who had for years rejected God, had been amazingly touched by God in a Denny’s parking lot. This girl was beaming with joy, sleepless from excitement, and so new and fresh. I urged her to visit some people we knew who ran Bible camp each year. Nothing fancy. Our children had all become friends and what we knew of them seemed legit. I had always admired their dedication to God, plus they were ministers. He was a pastor. The lady encouraged Jaime to go to this Gothard program and even intervened on her behalf when there was a concern for her eligibility, since she had not been raised in their teachings (red flag number one). I had become leery of and concerned with any ministry/church that claimed to be “unique” in its approach, above the rest. There begins to develop an exclusionist mentality. I was taught and believe the Bible would not have us circle our wagons into a “holy huddle” with unique rules that separate us from fellowship with any other believers.

We had never even heard of Gothard and had no idea what this was, but I was so happy she was going to a place to minister. She was so fresh and free when she found the Lord. She had been delivered from some bitterness and was a brand new unspoiled person, so loving. It was a real testimony to God at work. She would willingly go to help and stay with a sick woman we knew and tried to help her without complaint. She wanted so much to serve the Lord. She had such a forgiving spirit. She had let go of some major traumatic memories from her past that only God could have healed her from.

Fast forward to the Gothard institute. The legalism started to creep into her life almost immediately. She was to wear a dress at all times and not just that, but it was taught that those that didn’t were kind of unholy; defrauding. She told stories of a girl who was confined to her room for about a week as punishment for what seemed like a behavior that wasn’t wrong or hurtful. It was just not acceptable to them (red flag number 2). Boys and girls could not even be in each other’s company and talk, trying to get to know each other, without condemnation (red flag number 3). I wondered why it was treated as almost evil — what better place to teach them proper conduct with the opposite sex? Relationships are not wrong; God created woman and man for marriage. This seemed so over the top, almost like it was sinful. Clothes were so scrutinized that anything that even hugged the body or form fit in any way (like jeans) was decidedly scandalous. Almost like Muslim women, they were being taught that they were trying to appeal to the men and they were responsible.

One boy who was from a family deeply involved in this teaching showed interest in her after she left. He was a friend there and pursued her even though they both almost felt guilty. He eventually said his parents wouldn’t approve of his “courting” her because she had not always been a Christian (Huge, huge red flag!). My God changes people and they are a new creation. My belief stands, backed by scripture, that we are no different from each other, “that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.” The only possible reason for this mentality would be to further keep themselves from “contamination,” rather than reaching out to others in fellowship as family. Also, if indeed God puts two people together, if they have prayed it through themselves before pursuing each other; I don’t believe the parents should overrule merely by their unfounded prejudices. She had been telling us she was completely under our authority. I tried to tell her I felt her decisions were best made by her (with some advice) and God since she was over 18 and I believed it was time for her to have her own personal relationship with God rather than through me. She really was stuck on this.

It was very cult-like. I saw many similarities: the jargon that was solely understood and indoctrinated into them, the books written only by him, the teachings — everything was from his teachings. There were multiple rules that I knew were extra-biblical. Sure, it is wise to have your parents’ advice, but you stand before God in the final analysis. I think of Mary, David, and many of those we admire in scriptures who walked with God and had His guidance in the matter, at even younger ages. I wasn’t prepared to pick her mate. I understand the need for dissuading males and females from inappropriate contact, especially while away from home and in the care of the ministry. I get that, but the effort that was taken to keep them from forming any attachments or go home was an unjustifiable and unbiblical law. We do not live in a bubble. It is normal growth to learn, in increments if needed, just how to maneuver the curves that life throws us. Leadership is not meant to control us, but to guide us. I found it ironic that the daughters of the pastor were flirting with everyone and the rules didn’t apply. One only had to read their comments and such on their blogs.

My daughter became so legalistic and accusatory, mimicking the teachings and pointing fingers at others if they did this or that. It began to be less about God and more about doing the right thing; very judgmental, which was very obviously religious training. Quoting legalistic jargon as if it were scripture, and questioning people’s intentions if they were to ignore these rules or cross a line.

I have seen many of the youth who went to this program become isolated in life, unable to form healthy and loving relationships. It was as if they were so damaged by this program that they couldn’t pull this thing called life together. I have met many of kids from the program, and only on rare occasions do any of them seem to have the loving spirit of God that draws you to Him. It is as if the program derailed them from becoming growing, thinking Christians who are saved through grace by faith. It also derailed them, especially in my daughters’ case, from being the walking, joyful example of Christianity that they had been prior to their involvement with the Institute. In my daughter’s case, the spirit seemed to have died in her. It was quenched. I know no other way to put it. There was such a huge transformation from her sweet childlike faith to an almost bitter, judgmental person who spouted teachings as if they were scripture. I pointed out on many occasions how this or that wasn’t really in the Bible, and she agreed, saying that they were meant to be guidelines, but leadership took it too far. Yet you could see it was having its effect on her. It began to permeate her speech and attitude toward others, and tainted her opinion of others. Her joy disappeared and was replaced with fear. Instead of coming away ready to minister to others and better prepared to stand up and let His light shine, she was more interested in avoiding anyone who might contaminate her. Those who needed Christ became more like people to avoid.

She has since left the Institute and met some other amazing Christians, among whom she has learned to overcome those false teachings, returning to her once loving ways.

“And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten.” Joel 2:25

He truly has and what better testimony to the God of the universe to always seek us out and call us back to Him?

Vickie currently shares a wonderful relationship with her daughter. While never part of ATI herself, she desires to make other parents aware of what can happen to their children when they take part in such legalistic programs as Bill Gothard's Advanced Training Institute.

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

31 Comments

I especially like this part, "It is like the program derailed them from becoming growing, thinking Christians who are saved through faith by grace and, especially in my daughters’ case, was a walking, joyful example of that prior to her involvement with them." Several months ago, my sister and I were discussing this. That is pretty much what happened to me. The joyful, thrilled to be free in Christ young lady turned into a legalistic, judgemental girl in bondage to "principles." It stole my joy and took my eyes off of Christ and His fullness.

I grew up in this kind of church... and broke free. (Thank you Jesus!) Bless you for writing boldly. I have seen many people get drawn into legalism this way. Thank God your daughter found her way through!

Thanks for sharing. The best part is that your daughter didn't become so judgmental that she turned on you. I'm glad to hear you have a relationship with her again. Some mothers aren't so fortunate. It hurts to loose a child to a legalistic religious system. :(

Your story brings a totally different perspective to light. I can now only imagine all of the feelings my parents must have had in seeing their grown daughter (me) get involved in this cult. My Mother was very gracious and loving towards me the whole 16 years I was involved and in raising my kids in this way of life. She didn't approve of everything I did, but remained faithful to love me unconditionally. My father was also loving, but did question some of my actions from time to time.

Thankfully, we got out about 5 years before she went to be with the Lord. Even now, there are things that I wish that I could discuss with her. Sadly, my family and I were still in this program when I lost my Dad. Thanks for sharing your story.

Thank you for writing this for all to see. I agree with it completely, seen it played out in real life so many times, and with one of the most poignant evils of legalism as you described the individual's relationship with God is stunted, isolated, derailed, even embittered to any others not "in the group" as well as God.

Your quote:"My daughter became so legalistic and accusatory, mimicking the teachings and pointing fingers at others if they did this or that. It began to be less about God and more about doing the right thing; very judgmental, which was very obviously religious training. Quoting legalistic jargon as if it were scripture, and questioning people’s intentions if they were to ignore these rules or cross a line."

The saddest thing about all of this is that we do not have just legalistic Gothard teachers out there, but individual families who set themselves up as more holy than anyone else doing the exact same thing as Gothardism, meanwhile, destroying other families, stealing the minds of individuals, and stunting any true spiritual growth in these peoples' lives. These members can no longer think logically nor can they choose rightly---but only follow the legalistic teachings of the legalistic leader of the group, no matter how small it is, for the fear of their shunning or retribution from the group.

I have been all over the web reading stories similar to this and find many of the children raised in these stifling homes sometimes reject God totally after they break away. And the parents are so stiff necked as to still blame it on the child (rebellion, etc) instead of looking inward.

The true enemy and conniver in all of this is the devil, who has come to steal, kill and destroy. And he has used legalism to do his dirty work.

wow Vickie, you really hit the nail on the head! i was in ati for many years, and worked at two training centers for a total of almost 5 years. i rarely mention it to anyone i don't know well; i've been laughed at (as an adult) for being homeschooled. and i dare not tell anyone i've never been on a date. never been asked out. never had a boy interested in me. i feel like gothard stole something from me that i can never get back. all those years, wasted. years i could have gone to college, bettered myself financially, perhaps even met my soul mate. i've accepted the fact i will probably never marry or have a family. as long as i don't think about it too much, i don't want to drive my car off a bridge.

R,I understand the pain, but - for your own sake - don't believe that lie! You can still bump into your other half - sometimes it doesn't happen when you think it will. Work on being complete in yourself through God, and someone just might notice your healthy perspective. I am now 28 years old and, in three months, will marry my very first boyfriend - we have only been dating for two years. It is much later in life than I always dreamed, but he is perfect for me. There is still hope! It took me a long time to get healthy enough to have someone in my life. You can make it too.Much love and grace be with you!

I hear you, R, and it resonates. You're not alone. While we can never say what would have been, there's a sense of having lost something precious. It's incredibly hard to deal with, and I hope you don't have to deal with it alone. You're bringing it up, and you ARE thinking about it. That's courageous. I understand the car and the bridge too, and when those moments come, I hope you see people in your life who love you and wouldn't want to live it without you. Sometimes as a single it's easy to think you're expendable, easy to believe it too. It's simply not true, but there are moments it seems true. Can you seek out people in your life who will listen to your pain and speak truth to you? And by "truth" I don't mean hurtful things that are supposed to "fix you." I mean love. We were made for deep, loving relationships. We know it and we feel it to the core of our being. We singles just may need to fight harder to find such relationships and keep them. R, I very much admire your transparency, and I appreciate what you've shared. Thank you for sharing your pain.

R,I'm 35 and could have written much the same thing. But I came to the realization that my unaccredited teaching degree wasn't going to provide for me and I did something about it. I'm still just barely over half way done with my accredited bachelors and only recently moved into my own place (I was paying as I went along and it took about 9 years to construct.). Don't look back on what you could have accomplished, go ahead and do it! The truth is that it is only your fertility that has a "use by" date; true love can find you in your elder years. It doesn't sound as romantic but it is still just as real. And if you truly desire children, thanks to the miracles of modern medicine, there's no need to let your fertility expire. Or possibly you would qualify to adopt or foster children. Don't drive your car off your bridge; build a different one.

“And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten.” Joel 2:25

It's supremely ironic that BG puts so much emphasis on using our youth to God's greatest purpose while we have it, but when we realize it was more for the glory of Gothard or the vanity of our parents, we want it back!

I asked an old friend what she thought of IBLP and she said, "It's a cult." She said, "remember the picture of the hammer, chisel and diamond at the back of the red notebook?" I didn't remember that immediately, but now I do. That picture seems to be a sort of symbol of abuse. It is the father hammering the mother, the mother chiseling the child, and a shiny child, perfect in every way, resulting. Abuse produces inner darkness, depression, pain. I pray that God would revive, restore, reform. AMEN

I am very sad to see these accusatory, bitter things being said as from a 'free' person. I have been in ATI for 17 years, and I, my husband and children have all greatly benefited from the Scriptural insights shared. Attending the ATI COnference each year is the highlight of our family's year. We always come away so refreshed and feeling so blessed!

My family, my children, have not have any of the cult-like, self-righteous or judgmental attitudes that you are saying you've experienced with your daughter. I am so sad for you that this is your case, but I feel you are unjustly placing blame here. We are each responsible for our own attitudes and 'it is Mr. Gothard's fault' will not be your redeeming out on the day you stand before God to answer for yourself.

We wear jeans. We do not feel the guilt or condemnation you spoke of.

Please consider the harm you are doing here. Your blame placing threw 'red flags' up for me, to put it in your vernacular.

You said, "My family, my children, have not have any of the cult-like, self-righteous or judgmental attitudes that you are saying you've experienced with your daughter."

But earlier you said, "I am very sad to see these accusatory, bitter things being said as from a 'free' person." So didn't you just look down on the author and judge her, from a self-righteous point of view?

I don't mean to be ugly or anything, but perhaps you aren't aware of how you just came across in your comment. If you are on the fringe of ATI, as I suspect you probably are, then you would not experience the things that most of us have experienced, because you never got deep enough into the program to see it for yourself.

I personally do not think everything about ATI is a cult, although I certainly see many of it's functions are cult like, but I do have to say this. People who are in cults, do not understand that it is a cult, nor are they willing to accept it.

I am not familiar with Gothard but I am familiar with bigotry. And that is what I see here. The people on this board have a tunnel vision which causes them to see Gothard as the epitome of evil and the only evil out there. Its like people who hate Islam. They only want to focus on the bad things done by Muslims and ignore that fact that the very charges they are leveling against Islam can also be leveled against Christians, Jews, and Atheists. I could share stories of people hurt by the Catholic church but to the people on here they would not seem as bad because they were not done by the very people they hate. I am not saying Bill is right in the things he has done. But I think a lot of these people would show more grace and compassion towards Jerry Sandusky, Roman Polanski, or even the Boston bombers than they would towards Gothard and his people.

Sigh. I don't know if you saw the comment I just posted, but I said in that comment, up in the left corner of this site is a phrase that says something about, 'The Gothard generation'.

We exist to expose horrible things that a 'Christian' leader is doing (and we can do so because we were the ones that horrible things were done to). If you want to call that 'bigotry', you can, of course. Gothard is the person who damaged our lives. If Sandusky, Polanski, Boston Bombers, the Catholic church etc.. had been the person/organization that had wreaked havoc on my life, I wouldn't be on this website, I'd be on a website relevant to those individuals. This program ripped my family apart, and did great damage to me, all in the name of Christ. I ought to expose it. This has nothing to do with hate. Warning someone that a person is dangerous for whatever reason, is not hate. I'm sorry you see it that way.

(please remember that other comments you may see as hateful, are made by people who are in various stages of healing from damage, and therefore are VERY emotional and distressed. Please don't mistake that for hate. If Bill were to publicly repent and acknowledge his sin, there wouldn't be any need for this site, except perhaps to minister to those who are now aware of all the lies they believed, and are seeking help.) The vast majority of us do NOT hate Bill, we want to see him restored.

That is a trollish comment from Paul, but just to clarify, Scripture is clear that we are supposed to stand up for those who are being wrongfully oppressed. This applies to people who have been molested by a person of trust, regardless of whether that person was a clergyman, uncle or aunt, coach, neighbor, whatever. You can't take on all the evil in all the world; you have to do good where you can. The folks who run this site are not driven by hate but by love for God and love for others. They are bringing their efforts to bear where they have experience and insight. It's been neat to see that others who have experienced spiritual abuse apart from anything related to Bill Gothard have also found help and healing here---which is not terribly surprising, because at the end of the day, God's grace is a wonderful and healing thing regardless of who has wounded you and how they did it.

One more quick comment, "grace" is not equal to overlooking offenses or sweeping victims under the rug. Jesus was full of grace and truth. It is right and proper to tell the truth about abusers, and that truth is not mutually exclusive to also showing grace.

If you'll look at the top left corner of the webpage, you'll see it says something about 'A Gothard generation.'

This site exists for the sole purpose of exposing ONE individual and his program, because that is the individual and program who wreaked havoc on our lives. I've seen multiple comments (some of them I have written) actually comparing some of ATI's practices to Islam, I can assure you, we aren't giving Islam a 'free pass', we are focusing our energy on this one individual. This site doesn't exist to expose every injustice on the planet, that would cause chaos and confusion.

Paul, this is the second such comment you have made on this thread. As Heather has pointed out to you, Recovering Grace has clearly stated a very narrow focus: to expose the false teachings, double-standards, and cult-like leanings of Bill Gothard and his various ministries. Exposing these things may lead Recovering Grace to touch on other issues, including various forms of abuse, sexual harassment, occult activity, and so on. But that does not change the primary focus of the website: Bill Gothard and his ministries.

As Bill Gothard and his followers profess Christianity, it's only reasonable that this website would be focused on Christianity. It's also reasonable to expect that they would limit the topics that they address to things which are clearly related to Bill Gothard and his ministries. Bill Gothard has never, to my knowledge, aligned himself with Islam, so it would be unreasonable to expect Recovering Grace to address any problems with that religious system.

There are plenty of websites out there with different focuses, including Islam. I would encourage you to find one of those websites and air your concerns about Islam there. It's not that Recovering Grace doesn't care about the abuses done in that religion, or that Recovering Grace is oblivious to the dangers of Islam. It's just that your purpose is different from that of Recovering Grace.

"The dangers of Islam"? Seriously? That's like saying the "dangers of Christianity" because people like Gothard exist. Neither you nor the author are qualified to comment on my religion, because your "knowledge"of Islam had come from either Gothard-esque teachings or Faux News. There are as many doctrinal, regional, cultural, and personal variations among Muslims as among Christians. We pray to the same God as you do and our love of Jesus Christ is equal to that of Christians, why not look into that instead of regurgitating some missionary tract about the beleaguered women in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia? Stick to exposing Gothard and avoid commenting on a religion and a people of whom you are woefully ignorant.

Soon as the word seminar is spoken it is delcared a con so much destruction could be avoid by just learning about con men. I have never seen one siminar that did not wish to find the most credulous people and fleas their wallets.

I remember well when Bill Gothard went off the rails. It was around 1965, my last year in college that I attended a seminar at First Baptist on St. Charles and Spring Road in Elmhurst, IL, where I had earlier spent my high-school years as member and, later, president of York High School's Hi-C Club under the area-wide leadership of Bill Gothard.

I remember standing up at First Baptist Church to challenge Bill Gothard over what I considered his crazy ideas that included a supposed Biblical mandate that a person only marry a spouse of his parents' choosing, or some such nonsense.

Now a physicist and atheist, having in my 20s spent two years in seminary, I still have fond memories of Bill Gothard. I think he considered me his "right-hand man" back in 1963 to 1965, during the heydays of the "Crusader Palace." I remember his driving with me to Lake Geneva and spending hours conversing with him while walking in various park settings in the Western Suburbs of Chicago.

He always treated me well, showing respect and engagement. "God only knows," but I never sensed he was "grooming" me for sexual exploitation in any way and, besides, neither he nor I ever entertained any form of homosexual involvement, though both he and I have been lifelong single men.

I have lots of Bill Gothard stories I could regale you with over a campfire. Judging fellow humans over moral peccadillos and weaknesses seems to be monopolized by Christians and, lately, by Muslims.

Now a "new atheist," I say, "judge not, that ye be not judged" and "consider the beam in thine own eye." I quote I Corinthians 10:24 which reads, "Let each man seek not his own, but another's wealth" and I Chron. 26:18 "At Parbar westward, four at the causeway and two at Parbar."

The last two are verses I always used, tongue-in-cheek, at "testimony time" to great effect and laughter.

I don't think Bill was sexually grooming the boys. But anyway, it is curious to me why an atheist wants to quote the Bible to Christians about judging. Maybe you don't see Bill's peccadilloes as any big deal but the same section in Matthew a couple of verses later talks about "knowing someone by their fruit" which in essence means making some kind of judgement. You probably would turn around and say this is why you no longer believe because you would consider this inconsistent. There must have been quite a bit to happen in your life to go from a seminar student of 2 years, to becoming a "new" atheist. Bill's problems go well beyond peccadilloes and involve a whole host of issues like quoting Bible verses out of context just as you have just done here. Bill seems to have taught you very well.

I'm sorry, I couldn't help but leave a few thoughts on a bit of a different perspective. I understand yes, how maybe people can and do take what is taught and run away with it. I have seen it in different people. Many people forget to build that deep relationship with Christ. They get caught up in trying to please Him instead of remembering how when you seek Him and love Him, the things that please Him automatically follow.

I am an ATI student. I have only been doing ATI for a small amount of time. Before I began, I was very much part of the world and I wanted nothing to do with God or Christ, much less Christians. I accepted Christ a few months before I even new the IBLP existed. I started off strong but had no guidance what so ever and ended falling back into the deep pit of depression that I had previously struggled with. I ended up suicidal. Then I attended a conference.They gave me a beautiful view of God that I had never seen before. When I had accepted Jesus, I thought God was just out to kill everyone unless they said the salvation prayer. I never thought about the relationship I could have with Him. They helped me realize how wonderful God really is and how much He loves humanity. They helped me realize how much His heart breaks when someone dies before they could be saved. They trained me to be able to go out and spread the gospel. They taught me how to lovingly teach others about the love of Jesus and His wonderful gift He gave on the cross. That's what I have to say on the spiritual aspect.Now, as far as friends go and interaction with young men, my experience has been quite different than the one illustrated. My best friend is a young man that I met at a conference. He and I are friends and we along with everyone else are perfectly fine with it. We see nothing wrong and we talk daily. My best friend who's a girl, is a former ATI student (she's older than I by a year and is done with grade school). She works a secular job, has a major crush (on another ATI graduate guy) that everyone knows about and is fine with, she wears jeans and listens to Taylor Swift (gasp right!?!?). Yet so many other ATI families know her as a really strong Christian who is the most joyous girl you'd ever meet! Several of my friends have gotten married this year (most of my friends are in their twenties) with the guys that they had major crushes on.I personally am not concerned with trying to begin a relationship soon. I have less than a year to finish grade school and I'm planning to go to college to become an EMT. I also plan on doing several long term mission trips in the next couple of years. I have things I want to do before I have to worry about a family. My parents support me completely on this.I am ready to go out and spread the gospel to both near and far, coworkers and other nations. I'm ready to help fellow Christians who are unsure of their salvation to grow and become confident in Christ and His salvation. I want to help the world become more passionate about our wonderful Savior!!I know some have twisted the lessons that the IBLP provides and have turned them bad, but my experience has been much, much different. :) God bless you all and I shall be praying for any who may read my story.Please feel free to respond to my comment with your thoughts! I appreciate a debate that can be had without either side turning personal and aggressive.

@ Christs Cow Girl Always:In response to your invite to respond to what you've said, more than anyone's follow-up on your comment (including mine), I would like to hear your's. In 5 years, in 10 years, & again in 15 years.Jesus will never let you down or let you go out of His sight. But I'd be interested to see if you still see His goodness & love as being connected to IBLP as time goes by. Please drop in again & follow up, if you kindly (or perhaps not so kindly) would.

I appreciate Nicole's comment, and would add: You are a precious young person, who clearly loves the Lord and of course is dearly loved by Him. No doubt His heart rejoices in your heart to love Him and serve Him. You may find that along the way there are some hindrances to this; I know I did, when I was a young person who had the same desire, but found it difficult to carry out. Things came up that frustrated me. I was never in ATI, but one of the things that, actually, frustrated me from loving the Lord did originate from the same source as ATI.

You may find it useful to pray something along this line: Lord Jesus, I love You. I give my whole heart to You. Keep me for my whole life loving You and serving You altogether according to Your heart's desire for me. If I ever am frustrated by anything from serving You in Your way and according to Your heart's desire, please always open up the path for me to return to You and to love You with my first love, as in Revelation 2:4, and serve You in Your way.

I find that nothing I can do out of my own thoughts and desires, even if my intention is to serve the Lord, can satisfy either me or Him, so I have to constantly pray that He will keep me loving Him and serving Him according to His heart's desire. He answers this prayer!

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