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Thank you for choosing Pittsburgh as your college destination. We hope you adjust well to the urban experience and choose to live here when you graduate. Maybe you can live near some of the imaginary housing projects you believe are in Penn Hills and Monroeville.

Okay, well first of all... I've been living in an urban environment for quite a while now. I don't know if you are familiar with Erie, but it is the third/fourth largest city in the state. I say third or fourth, because it was revealed in a study that the Allentown tabulation counted populations that went uncounted in Erie (namely non-permanent resident student populations). Surprise... the data was wrong. This is not to mention that I have been to several major U.S. and world cities. So, even though my simple back-country origins might seem quaint to you, I assure you, I need no time to adjust.

I must say, I am saddened by this discussion. I think that a good discussion should be an opportunity to learn something new. I regret to say that I learned nothing from you. Indeed, I have probably been using the census tract data in Social Explorer, and the site itself, longer than you have. (Remember that study that proved inconstancies in the census between Erie and Allentown I just told you about? Guess who was one of the researchers.)

I used this data for my final project for one of my classes this summer, which just so happened to be a project on housing policy in Allegheny County. Imagine that. Anyway, one thing that I discovered is that the African Americas living in Monroeville aren't living there because of some new found upward mobility. Most of them moved out there because they couldn't afford the transportation costs to get to all the jobs that were moving from the inner-suburbs to there. Naturally, as these people were, at best, working class, most of them needed to use Section 8 or live in a Housing Project to afford the move.

Some of them were also screwed over on sub-prime loans, but that's beside the point. The point is that I actually do know what it is that I speak of, believe it or not, so for as much contempt as you might feel for me being a simple, uneducated hick, I would like to politely remind you that I am here for a reason. I actually have an interest in this stuff. You might do well in the future if you simply respected other people's opinions and stuck to the facts, rather than making clumsy attacks based on how much knowledge your prejudice perceives they should have.

Feel free to keep on talking while you slowly change your conclusion. Maybe no one will notice that your final opinion is precisely what I've been saying all along. You're almost there...

Insult me personally a few more times, then accuse me of being belligerent, repeat what I've been saying all along, and then claim victory....I won't tell.

No, my primary contention from the very start was your wording that "some areas are segregated, some are not". I merely noted that many, many more areas fit into the "some" than the "not" and that's when we started down this road. You are changing your opinion to better suit what I have been saying all along. You are the one who started with the insults, and the cocky wording. I merely was pointing out the blatantly obvious.

Later you tried to distort my positions by saying that I claimed Pittsburgh was a hot bed of racism... a notion I rejected several times. I said that there was some latent racism related to the segregation of the area, and I maintain that position now.

And then you insulted me for not knowing anything about the city, and being some kind of hick... and don't even bother trying to say that's not what you were suggesting when you said "I hope you don't have any trouble adjusting to urban...." because that is exactly what you meant. You totally ignored that I pointed out that my opinion is commonly held by many people who come here and have outside experience. You totally ignored when I noted that in spite of your skepticism, I am perfectly capable of having an opinion of population patterns in this city, because that is the work I have been immersed in for the past months.

You would not concede an inch, even when I was obviously right. You stuck to your guns, even though others joined the discussion to back me up, and then you called me ignorant for it.

I agree with everything you just said. The contention here is about whether Pittsburgh is well integrated because of a handful of eastern suburban communities, and I say... obviously not.

I actually don't think anyone was claiming the eastern suburbs alone were enough to make the entire region count as well-integrated. Instead, I think people were somewhat talking past each other, since some were focused on how to characterize the region as a whole, and some on how to characterize particular neighborhoods.

I actually don't think anyone was claiming the eastern suburbs alone were enough to make the entire region count as well-integrated. Instead, I think people were somewhat talking past each other, since some were focused on how to characterize the region as a whole, and some on how to characterize particular neighborhoods.

Sadly, what this argument has really become about is who exactly was it who let this thing get out of control and come to fisticuffs.

I didn't even really disagree with what I will now call zip's "1, 2, 3" statement, so much as I disagreed with the tone of the statement, which is what I communicated from the outset. I simply disagreed that mass segregation in one part of the county doesn't effect the rest of the county. I don't get what is so hard to see about that.

If you go back through this conversation, I rather diligently tried to break it down to demonstrate why I held that the county is, in fact, basically segregated, except for a few areas, and I mostly stuck to those points throughout.

I think where this thing started to go down the whole is when zip seems to have mistaken my points on segregation in the county as a general critique of race relations, stating that there was alot of institutional racism in the county, which I wasn't saying at all.

I've got nothing against the guy, or at least I didn't into he tried to use the "nuclear option" to shut me up... which I didn't appreciate at all.

If I spoke in such as way as to compound the problem, I'm sorry. However, zip made it clear that he has no respect for the opinions of anyone who is not "Pittsburgh Born and Bred" when it comes to the city and therefore, I have no respect for him.

Alexis de Tocqueville observed of Americans that we are very poor at taking internal criticism of our society, but are willing to readily listen to the opinions of outsiders. It occurs to me more and more than most Americans aren't willing to listen to either, anymore, which in unfortunate. Similarly, it seems some Pittsburghers, and not a small number, do in fact, either react violently, or curl up into a ball when "outsiders" try to voice an opinion of their city. And that kinda attitude is unfortunate, particularly on a forum designed to facilitate discussions, as such.

Personally, I wouldn't blame one person more than the other. These things happen--people are talking past each other, they get frustrated because they think their valid points aren't being recognized, the tone of the conversation degrades, and that sets off a vicious cycle of increasingly hostile back and forth exchanges. Indeed, I've participated in that sort of thing myself in the past, so I know how easy it can be for this to happen.

I don't know what to say to all that. You seem upset so I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Anyway, You say I taught you nothing, so let me teach you a few things about....

In the early 1960's segregation was forced and many suburbs were closed to African Americans. When the suburbs finally opened, in the late 60's, many of the wealthiest blacks moved to the Lincoln Park section of Penn Hills and the Garden City section of Monroeville. So these towns have had a minority presence for 40+ years, meaning that these school districts have been integrated for 40+ years. So naturally, people raised in these municipalities, aren't completely flabberghasted to see people of other races.

Fast forward...the city tore down the Housing Projects in the East Hills, so many of the project dwellers moved to Lincoln Park. Black flight occured and many of the upper-middle class blacks residing in Lincoln Park fled to neighboring communities and other areas in Penn Hills. Also, with Westinghouse in the Eastern Suburbs, more black professionals settled in areas like Churchill and Monroeville.

The result is that the Eastern Suburbs are reasonably integrated. In fact, as I discovered earlier, the Garden City neighborhood is now one of the wealthier neighborhoods in Monroeville.

And finally, regarding your point that there are many segregated areas in the region. You will find that no one anywhere in this thread has disputed that point. In actuality, everyone has acknowledged that point...repeatedly

You say I taught you nothing, so let me teach you a few things...we can start there.

In the early 1960's segregation was forced and many suburbs were closed to African Americans. When the suburbs finally opened, in the late 60's, many of the wealthiest blacks moved to the Lincoln Park section of Penn Hills and the Garden City section of Monroeville. So these towns have had a minority presence for 40+ years, meaning that these school districts have been integrated for 40+ years. So naturally, people raised in these municipalities, aren't completely flabberghasted to see people of other races.

Fast forward...the city tore down the Housing Projects in the East Hills, so many of the project dwellers moved to Lincoln Park. Black flight occured and many of the upper-middle class blacks residing in Lincoln Park fled to neighboring communities and other areas in Penn Hills. Also, with Westinghouse in the Eastern Suburbs, more black professionals settled in areas like Churchill and Monroeville.

The result is that the Eastern Suburbs are reasonably integrated. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, the Garden City neighborhood is now one of the wealthiest in Monroeville.

And that's fine. Not to cop an attitude, I don't really need the history lesson.

When I talk about Churchill, and Penn Hills, I am talking mainly proximity. Proximity to the East Liberty/Homewood/Wilkinsburg Black enclave. It is my contention that the cited diversity in Churchill and Penn Hills has quite a bit to do with run over from the poorer black areas... you're very likely right that there are wealthier black families in those areas. That I would know. But you must concede that much of the black presence in those areas is due to the factors I mentioned. The facts seem to support that.

As for the case in Monroeville, again, you are likely right, but I know that a sizable number of blacks who recently moved there did so for proximity to low paying jobs. And that these people used Section 8 and other government provided housing options.

Now, there are a number of smaller areas in the southeastern suburbs which, on the face of it, appear to be fairly well integrated (70-30 splits for White-Black), but in fact, many of these places owe this to the fact that a housing project, or large Section 8 area located in those zones houses, primarily African Americans.

One of the problems with the FHA... and this is nationwide, with a few exceptions, is that it doesn't cover "source of income" as a protected class. And so most renters can simply refuse Section 8 voucher holders based on the fact that they receive government payments. Since African Americans receive a disproportionate amount of government payments, what happens is that they can only live in low rent neighborhoods anyway, and thus what happens is basically the projects without the projects. That's what's happened in the East Hills.

I think there was a miscommunication that I would like to clear up, again. I am not insinuating blatant racism here. I am saying that, for historical, cultural, economic and social reasons, Pittsburgh is a highly segregated area... all over the county. I grant you there are places that aren't... I granted that from the start. But I don't see that there are too many of these places around.

Without trying to be an jagoff, I would like an apology for your earlier insinuation that I am both a hillbilly and have no room to comment on the affairs of this city.

In turn, I apologize for anything I did that you might find offensive. It was not my intent to be so.

Without trying to be an jagoff, I would like an apology for your earlier insinuation that I am both a hillbilly and have no room to comment on the affairs of this city.

If you plan to say negative things about the city on this forum I suggest you learn to take people's insults lightly. The insults will not stop in this thread and they will appear any time you make a negative claim about the city. Its part of the Pittsburgh charm.

If you plan to say negative things about the city on this forum I suggest you learn to take people's insults lightly. The insults will not stop in this thread and they will appear any time you make a negative claim about the city. Its part of the Pittsburgh charm.

Oh, I'm aware. I've gonna after a few people for going too far in attacking the city. That being said, I was still pretty pissed off that he went where he went... especially since he had to rifle through my old posts to prove his point, which shows a high level of determination to play "gotcha".

Last edited by supersoulty; 06-08-2008 at 10:35 PM..

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