Ok, so what are the differences between Ukrainian/Ruthenian/Rusyn practices* and Russian practices. What is closer to the spirit of XVIIth century Ukraine, UOC in Ukraine or UOC-USA? Are UOC-USA traditions effect of hellenisation or are they authentical traditional Ukrainian practices and UOC in Ukraine is under the influence of Russia. What were the differences between GDL Orthodoxy and pre/post Nikonian Russian Orthodoxy?

*Unless Ukrainian and Rusyn practices have some differences too. I'd like to hear about that too.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Ok, so what are the differences between Ukrainian/Ruthenian/Rusyn practices* and Russian practices. What is closer to the spirit of XVIIth century Ukraine, UOC in Ukraine or UOC-USA? Are UOC-USA traditions effect of hellenisation or are they authentical traditional Ukrainian practices and UOC in Ukraine is under the influence of Russia. What were the differences between GDL Orthodoxy and pre/post Nikonian Russian Orthodoxy?

*Unless Ukrainian and Rusyn practices have some differences too. I'd like to hear about that too.

Do the Russians kiss the chalice after communing? Ukrainians do.

The Ukrainians remain at the chalice after receiving and the chalice is placed on top of their head as a blessing.

Yes, the Russians do it. Some Antiochians do it, ostensibly influenced by Russian seminaries. There's actually been a controversy over whether one should or should not kiss the chalice--going on for at least the last thousand years.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Yes, the Russians do it. Some Antiochians do it, ostensibly influenced by Russian seminaries. There's actually been a controversy over whether one should or should not kiss the chalice--going on for at least the last thousand years.

Welcome to Orthodoxy. I don't undertand the fuss over this. Let Russians kiss the chalice and let the Antiochians keep their tradition. Problem solved.

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 19:34

Yes, the Russians do it. Some Antiochians do it, ostensibly influenced by Russian seminaries. There's actually been a controversy over whether one should or should not kiss the chalice--going on for at least the last thousand years.

Welcome to Orthodoxy. I don't undertand the fuss over this. Let Russians kiss the chalice and let the Antiochians keep their tradition. Problem solved.

Well, it sort of goes hand in hand with whether one should fast after Pascha. Some people want there to be what there never really was--a single way to practice the faith.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

We utilize all the beauty - availing all the senses to the glory of the Orthodox Church.

While some mission parishes may reflect the "Ukrainian" touch less than others, in order to be more appealing to new converts and non-Ukrainian faithful, as a general rule we have retained all the traditions passed down to us by our ancestors.

We have the embroidered towels on our icons, we kiss the Chalice, and we get tapped on the head with it, we sing the most glorious hymns, we decorate our temple with flowers and greenery on Pentecost, our bishop's throne is located inside the Altar, etc.

Michal, is there something in particular you wish to see addressed? It seems too vague a question.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

The Ruthenian Typicon has eight Prayers of Light as well as a different Prayer of Entrance at Vespers, both attested by pre-Nikonian manuscripts. At Divine Liturgy it is often what prayers we don't have that attest to the antiquity of our usage. There is no Resurrection Troparia at the Great Entrance, no Third Hour Troparia in the middle of the Epiclesis, no Resurrection Troparia when placing the commemoration particles into the Chalice. We use the Paschal Aniphons throughout the year the Typical Anitphons being reserved for Sundays during Fasts.

The Ruthenian Typicon has eight Prayers of Light as well as a different Prayer of Entrance at Vespers, both attested by pre-Nikonian manuscripts. At Divine Liturgy it is often what prayers we don't have that attest to the antiquity of our usage. There is no Resurrection Troparia at the Great Entrance, no Third Hour Troparia in the middle of the Epiclesis, no Resurrection Troparia when placing the commemoration particles into the Chalice. We use the Paschal Aniphons throughout the year the Typical Anitphons being reserved for Sundays during Fasts.

Which groups do (and do not) use bells on the censer (kadylo)? Both UOC parishes that I've been a part of do this. Although I've heard that some Orthodox (who?) do not.

I was told that the Ukrainian custom was to cense the altar during the reading of the Epistle. One parish I belonged to did this. The other one censes instead during the Alleluias (a Greek practice?) so that people can hear the Epistle being read.

Someone please help me clarify this as I don't know any more about it than that.

In some parishes, during the Great Entrance, the priest and the servers process out the deacon's door and right around to the Royal Doors. One parish I belonged to did this.

In other parishes, they process around the back of the church and back up to the front again. Our present parish does this although I heard that they didn't always do so. I remember in one OCA parish we visited that they also did this. I don't remember about the others.

Both UOC of USA. I don't know the roots of either tradition but am interested to know who does what.

The Ruthenian Typicon has eight Prayers of Light as well as a different Prayer of Entrance at Vespers, both attested by pre-Nikonian manuscripts. At Divine Liturgy it is often what prayers we don't have that attest to the antiquity of our usage. There is no Resurrection Troparia at the Great Entrance, no Third Hour Troparia in the middle of the Epiclesis, no Resurrection Troparia when placing the commemoration particles into the Chalice. We use the Paschal Aniphons throughout the year the Typical Anitphons being reserved for Sundays during Fasts.

Which groups do (and do not) use bells on the censer (kadylo)? Both UOC parishes that I've been a part of do this. Although I've heard that some Orthodox (who?) do not.

I was told that the Ukrainian custom was to cense the altar during the reading of the Epistle. One parish I belonged to did this. The other one censes instead during the Alleluias (a Greek practice?) so that people can hear the Epistle being read.

Someone please help me clarify this as I don't know any more about it than that.

My priest censes during the reading of the Epistle.

We also have bells on our censer....however, we also have one where the bells have been removed.

Personally, I like the bells, not just the sound, but the meaning behind them. However, some people find them distracting or annoying....and under parish pressure, our old censer has been stripped of bells and is used on most Sundays. The bells can be heard on Feast Days or when the bishop visits.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:27:52 PM by LizaSymonenko »

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I have seen bells and no bells in both Easern Catholic and Orthodox parishes, same for extending the Great Entrance, and same for incensing for the Gospel, although the Ruthenian Typicon (and others I suspect) does direct it to be done during the Alleluiarion not the Epistle.

In some parishes, during the Great Entrance, the priest and the servers process out the deacon's door and right around to the Royal Doors. One parish I belonged to did this.

In other parishes, they process around the back of the church and back up to the front again. Our present parish does this although I heard that they didn't always do so. I remember in one OCA parish we visited that they also did this. I don't remember about the others.

Both UOC of USA. I don't know the roots of either tradition but am interested to know who does what.

At my parish, they exit the deacon's door and the priest stays on the solea, walks and stops before the Royal Doors. The Altar servers proceed down to the nave and stand by the tetrapod.

I've seen the Gospel carried to the back of the church when I visited a Greek church and an Antiochian Church...and a Romanian monastery.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:02:33 PM by LizaSymonenko »

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Which groups do (and do not) use bells on the censer (kadylo)? Both UOC parishes that I've been a part of do this. Although I've heard that some Orthodox (who?) do not.

If a censer without bells is used, it is generally during Great Lent, unless circumstances such as Liza has described exist. The bells represent the Apostles and their mission: "Their sound has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world".

Which groups do (and do not) use bells on the censer (kadylo)? Both UOC parishes that I've been a part of do this. Although I've heard that some Orthodox (who?) do not.

If a censer without bells is used, it is generally during Great Lent, unless circumstances such as Liza has described exist. The bells represent the Apostles and their mission: "Their sound has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world".

Which groups do (and do not) use bells on the censer (kadylo)? Both UOC parishes that I've been a part of do this. Although I've heard that some Orthodox (who?) do not.

If a censer without bells is used, it is generally during Great Lent, unless circumstances such as Liza has described exist. The bells represent the Apostles and their mission: "Their sound has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world".

I think it's far fetched to say they represent anything.

only for nihilists.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:35:48 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Other traditions that I know have survived in the UOC of USA in some places include kneeling during the Our Father during the Liturgy and at the moment of consecration. This practice is slowly fading away as I believe it was brought in from the Greek Catholic immigrants.

We also ring the bells during the Hymn to the Mother of God. Some parishes I've been to also ring three chimes at the moment of the words of institution.

In some parishes, during the Great Entrance, the priest and the servers process out the deacon's door and right around to the Royal Doors. One parish I belonged to did this.

In other parishes, they process around the back of the church and back up to the front again. Our present parish does this although I heard that they didn't always do so. I remember in one OCA parish we visited that they also did this. I don't remember about the others.

Both UOC of USA. I don't know the roots of either tradition but am interested to know who does what.

At my parish, they exit the deacon's door and the priest stays on the solea, walks and stops before the Royal Doors. The Altar servers proceed down to the nave and stand by the tetrapod.

I've seen the Gospel carried to the back of the church when I visited a Greek church and an Antiochian Church...and a Romanian monastery.

In our parish the people make a full 360-degree turn as they face the priest as he carries either the Gospel or the Chalice during that part of the Liturgy. They also cross themselves as he passes by at both parts.

Which groups do (and do not) use bells on the censer (kadylo)? Both UOC parishes that I've been a part of do this. Although I've heard that some Orthodox (who?) do not.

If a censer without bells is used, it is generally during Great Lent, unless circumstances such as Liza has described exist. The bells represent the Apostles and their mission: "Their sound has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world".

The eighth article of the Union of Brest reads as follows:

"Likewise that we should not be compelled to have the blessing of fire, the use of wooden clappers, and similar ceremonies before Easter, for we have not had such ceremonies in our Church until now, but that we should maintain our ceremonies according to the rubrics and the Typicon of our Church."

I presume the wooden clappers took the place of bells during Great Lent, but am not clear about this.

Which groups do (and do not) use bells on the censer (kadylo)? Both UOC parishes that I've been a part of do this. Although I've heard that some Orthodox (who?) do not.

If a censer without bells is used, it is generally during Great Lent, unless circumstances such as Liza has described exist. The bells represent the Apostles and their mission: "Their sound has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world".

The eighth article of the Union of Brest reads as follows:

"Likewise that we should not be compelled to have the blessing of fire, the use of wooden clappers, and similar ceremonies before Easter, for we have not had such ceremonies in our Church until now, but that we should maintain our ceremonies according to the rubrics and the Typicon of our Church."

I presume the wooden clappers took the place of bells during Great Lent, but am not clear about this.

Incidentally, the grammar of this quote from a document from 1595 is good support for the doctrine of the Ever-Virginity of the Theotokos, i.e., it uses "until now" not to indicate that they are now doing something, but that they have never done something. I believe this is the argument ("until she had brought forth a son") that some Protestants use to say that the Virgin Mary was no longer a virgin after the birth of Christ.

In some parishes, during the Great Entrance, the priest and the servers process out the deacon's door and right around to the Royal Doors. One parish I belonged to did this.

In other parishes, they process around the back of the church and back up to the front again. Our present parish does this although I heard that they didn't always do so. I remember in one OCA parish we visited that they also did this. I don't remember about the others.

Both UOC of USA. I don't know the roots of either tradition but am interested to know who does what.

At my parish, they exit the deacon's door and the priest stays on the solea, walks and stops before the Royal Doors. The Altar servers proceed down to the nave and stand by the tetrapod.

I've seen the Gospel carried to the back of the church when I visited a Greek church and an Antiochian Church...and a Romanian monastery.

In our parish the people make a full 360-degree turn as they face the priest as he carries either the Gospel or the Chalice during that part of the Liturgy. They also cross themselves as he passes by at both parts.

See...I have a problem with that. When anything happens in the nave, people tend to turn their backs to the Altar. However, the Holy Mysteries are present there, at all times, regardless that the Gospel is moving around to the back.

I will pivet at a 45 degree angle and bow before the Gospel,...however, if the Royal Gates are open, I will not turn my back to Altar.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Other traditions that I know have survived in the UOC of USA in some places include kneeling during the Our Father during the Liturgy and at the moment of consecration. This practice is slowly fading away as I believe it was brought in from the Greek Catholic immigrants.

We also ring the bells during the Hymn to the Mother of God. Some parishes I've been to also ring three chimes at the moment of the words of institution.

We kneel....boy, do we kneel. Yes, even on Sundays. We kneel for the reading of the Gospel, for the Cherubic Hymn/Great Entrance, the Creed, the Epiklesis, the Lord's prayer, and the closing hymn (Boje Velikij).

We have a few people who actually kneel while Communion is given until the Chalice is placed back on the side table (where the Proskomedia is served).

...and we do NOT kneel after taking Holy Communion, unless it is during Great Lent and it is the Sunday of the Cross, or on Pentecost during the reading of the prayer x3...at which time we kneel even if we just communed.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Which groups do (and do not) use bells on the censer (kadylo)? Both UOC parishes that I've been a part of do this. Although I've heard that some Orthodox (who?) do not.

If a censer without bells is used, it is generally during Great Lent, unless circumstances such as Liza has described exist. The bells represent the Apostles and their mission: "Their sound has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world".

The eighth article of the Union of Brest reads as follows:

"Likewise that we should not be compelled to have the blessing of fire, the use of wooden clappers, and similar ceremonies before Easter, for we have not had such ceremonies in our Church until now, but that we should maintain our ceremonies according to the rubrics and the Typicon of our Church."

I presume the wooden clappers took the place of bells during Great Lent, but am not clear about this.

Article 22 also mentions bells during Lent:

"That the Romans should not forbid us to ring bells in our churches on Good Friday, both in the cities and everywhere else."

Other traditions that I know have survived in the UOC of USA in some places include kneeling during the Our Father during the Liturgy and at the moment of consecration. This practice is slowly fading away as I believe it was brought in from the Greek Catholic immigrants.

We also ring the bells during the Hymn to the Mother of God. Some parishes I've been to also ring three chimes at the moment of the words of institution.

We kneel....boy, do we kneel. Yes, even on Sundays. We kneel for the reading of the Gospel, for the Cherubic Hymn/Great Entrance, the Creed, the Epiklesis, the Lord's prayer, and the closing hymn (Boje Velikij).

We have a few people who actually kneel while Communion is given until the Chalice is placed back on the side table (where the Proskomedia is served).

...and we do NOT kneel after taking Holy Communion, unless it is during Great Lent and it is the Sunday of the Cross, or on Pentecost during the reading of the prayer x3...at which time we kneel even if we just communed.

My present parish used to do this, I understand, but the priest abolished the practice. We only sing "Bozhe Velykyj" on Sundays that fall near Ukrainian holidays or feasts. We sang it last Sunday because of Independence Day. The rest of the time we end with "Many Years," and then the Panikhidas.

"Likewise that we should not be compelled to have the blessing of fire, the use of wooden clappers, and similar ceremonies before Easter, for we have not had such ceremonies in our Church until now, but that we should maintain our ceremonies according to the rubrics and the Typicon of our Church."

I presume the wooden clappers took the place of bells during Great Lent, but am not clear about this.

Wooden clappers (crotali) are used in the Latin Church on Maundy Thursday, after the altars are stripped. Bells are not rung from the Gloria of the Mass on Maundy Thursday until the Triduum is over.

The blessing of fire is also a Latin ceremony performed before the Easter Vigil.

"Likewise that we should not be compelled to have the blessing of fire, the use of wooden clappers, and similar ceremonies before Easter, for we have not had such ceremonies in our Church until now, but that we should maintain our ceremonies according to the rubrics and the Typicon of our Church."

I presume the wooden clappers took the place of bells during Great Lent, but am not clear about this.

Wooden clappers are used in the Latin Church on Maundy Thursday, after the altars are stripped. Bells are not rung from the Gloria of the Mass on Maundy Thursday until the Triduum is over.

The blessing of fire is also a Latin ceremony performed before the Easter Vigil.

Maybe these were viewed as undesirable Latinizations.

These were the conditions imposed by the bishops of the Church of Rus' for entering into communion with the Pope of Rome. You can read the full text here:

"Likewise that we should not be compelled to have the blessing of fire, the use of wooden clappers, and similar ceremonies before Easter, for we have not had such ceremonies in our Church until now, but that we should maintain our ceremonies according to the rubrics and the Typicon of our Church."

I presume the wooden clappers took the place of bells during Great Lent, but am not clear about this.

Wooden clappers are used in the Latin Church on Maundy Thursday, after the altars are stripped. Bells are not rung from the Gloria of the Mass on Maundy Thursday until the Triduum is over.

The blessing of fire is also a Latin ceremony performed before the Easter Vigil.

Maybe these were viewed as undesirable Latinizations.

These were the conditions imposed by the bishops of the Church of Rus' for entering into communion with the Pope of Rome. You can read the full text here:

LOL. And where can we read how well the Vatican upheld its end of the deal?

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

"Likewise that we should not be compelled to have the blessing of fire, the use of wooden clappers, and similar ceremonies before Easter, for we have not had such ceremonies in our Church until now, but that we should maintain our ceremonies according to the rubrics and the Typicon of our Church."

I presume the wooden clappers took the place of bells during Great Lent, but am not clear about this.

Wooden clappers are used in the Latin Church on Maundy Thursday, after the altars are stripped. Bells are not rung from the Gloria of the Mass on Maundy Thursday until the Triduum is over.

The blessing of fire is also a Latin ceremony performed before the Easter Vigil.

Maybe these were viewed as undesirable Latinizations.

These were the conditions imposed by the bishops of the Church of Rus' for entering into communion with the Pope of Rome. You can read the full text here:

"Likewise that we should not be compelled to have the blessing of fire, the use of wooden clappers, and similar ceremonies before Easter, for we have not had such ceremonies in our Church until now, but that we should maintain our ceremonies according to the rubrics and the Typicon of our Church."

I presume the wooden clappers took the place of bells during Great Lent, but am not clear about this.

Wooden clappers are used in the Latin Church on Maundy Thursday, after the altars are stripped. Bells are not rung from the Gloria of the Mass on Maundy Thursday until the Triduum is over.

The blessing of fire is also a Latin ceremony performed before the Easter Vigil.

Maybe these were viewed as undesirable Latinizations.

These were the conditions imposed by the bishops of the Church of Rus' for entering into communion with the Pope of Rome. You can read the full text here:

If a censer without bells is used, it is generally during Great Lent, unless circumstances such as Liza has described exist. The bells represent the Apostles and their mission: "Their sound has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world".

I have seen bells and no bells in both Easern Catholic and Orthodox parishes, same for extending the Great Entrance, and same for incensing for the Gospel, although the Ruthenian Typicon (and others I suspect) does direct it to be done during the Alleluiarion not the Epistle.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

So, in other words, your OP was poorly worded, as you asked for a comparison with the UOC in Ukraine. The OP did not specify which one.

I would, however, like to state that although there are the 3 major UOC churches in Ukraine, you will not find Liturgical differences among them, other than who they might commemorate.

So, per the OP they will all look and feel the same.

...and most UOC of USA churches will "mirror" the same look and feel.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 07:23:29 AM by LizaSymonenko »

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

So, in other words, your OP was poorly worded, as you asked for a comparison with the UOC in Ukraine. The OP did not specify which one.

I would, however, like to state that although there are the 3 major UOC churches in Ukraine, you will not find Liturgical differences among them, other than who they might commemorate.

So, per the OP they will all look and feel the same.

...and most UOC of USA churches will "mirror" the same look and feel.

Are you sure? I would think the UAOC, being descended from the UGCC, would be using the Ruthenian books (as I assume the UOC-USA does as well) where UOC-MP and UOC-KP else would be using the Nikonian ones.