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Singha wrote:how stable and durable will it be with a huge gun and 18t weight? the last attempt to do that by massa himself was quite unseemly the sherdian - a similar concept to Sprut - air portable and heavy gun with light weighthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M551_Sheridan

it will likely need a very low velocity gun to survive - more suitable for hitting fortifications with AP and HESH shells than APDS dueling with MBTs at long range

The French AMX-13 that niran mentions was built with German Panzer 75 mm cannon. Only it was too long and weighs quite a bit. So the French reduced the barrel length and called CN-75-50 i.e. is barrel is 50 calibers length. The problem was they need to counter weight the long barrel with dead weight in the turret. This AMX-13 tank gun had very high muzzle velocity and could defeat eh Patton sideways. However it was really an armored tractor weighing at 15 tons total. The armor could be penetrated by 0.50 cal machine gun bullets.

shiv wrote:I see it like building one's own house. I own the land and it has certain issues. It is sloping and has a low water table. My requirements are - no steps inside the house other than staircase, basement with no water leak. I have no design knowledge. It is up to the architect to say what is possible.

Hakimji, that is a great example but can it be scaled up to state of the art or pushing technology limits systems? It's perhaps akin to writing a PhD proposal, defending it and then being allowed to work on the PhD. The proposal writing needs knowledge of the subject so that you don't go around chasing unsolvable problems.

So the IA should entrust GSQR writing to a design house and not boys that like foreign toys and brochures.

By that same standard, DRDO/ADA should frame GSQR for IAF's next aircraft and tell them what their mission requirements (range, payload, maneuverability requirements etc) are. And Navy should be told what ships they require? It is Military's job to know what their mission requirements are and Design agency's job to be clear whether they can fulfill those requirements in reasonable time.

rkhanna wrote:"With close to 200 choppers planned, why would IA want 200-300 light tanks? when attack helicopters will be better than tank anyday in killing another tank."

Because Air Power cannot occupy ground won. Infantry will. And Infantry will need fire support/Armour on the ready.

Agreed!! But does it necessitate an apple to Apple solution for this?? I would think not. It would be better to handle this with other assymetrical methods. One such eg is jeep mounted ATGM, purpose built for this situation. Or if armoured units are an absolute must then get some of those Vijyantas back in action and permanently position them there, attached to the Ladakh Scouts ( convert 2 of the 3 battalions of the regiment as Mech Inf Bn or as an armoured squadron)Those along with the Rudra's and LCH's should really be sufficient to handle the threat of Chini LBTs, IMO.

Bala Vignesh wrote:Agreed!! But does it necessitate an apple to Apple solution for this?? I would think not. It would be better to handle this with other assymetrical methods. One such eg is jeep mounted ATGM, purpose built for this situation. Or if armoured units are an absolute must then get some of those Vijyantas back in action and permanently position them there, attached to the Ladakh Scouts ( convert 2 of the 3 battalions of the regiment as Mech Inf Bn or as an armoured squadron)Those along with the Rudra's and LCH's should really be sufficient to handle the threat of Chini LBTs, IMO.

Vijayanta is 40ton plus saar if you add all the gizmos and ERA tiles it is heavier than current T72s currently deployed by IA defeat the purpose of "light tank" an APC with Nag missiles launcher will suffice, missiles can be stored in the space meant for soldiers (30 to 40 missiles) 10 of them will stop any armored putsch as easy as drinking morning chai regardless of size or weight or type of foe armour

Gaur wrote:By that same standard, DRDO/ADA should frame GSQR for IAF's next aircraft and tell them what their mission requirements (range, payload, maneuverability requirements etc) are. And Navy should be told what ships they require? It is Military's job to know what their mission requirements are and Design agency's job to be clear whether they can fulfill those requirements in reasonable time.

Where did you come across the above in my post? The army needs to have a vision for its capabilities and also procure weapons to achieve that target/vision.

Therefore it should have a design group to guide the procurement process to make sure - a) that the forces don't spec unobtainium, b) the forces don't buy crap declared to be unobtainium.

"Agreed!! But does it necessitate an apple to Apple solution for this?? I would think not. It would be better to handle this with other assymetrical methods. One such eg is jeep mounted ATGM, purpose built for this situation. Or if armoured units are an absolute must then get some of those Vijyantas back in action and permanently position them there, attached to the Ladakh Scouts ( convert 2 of the 3 battalions of the regiment as Mech Inf Bn or as an armoured squadron)"

IMO its not an either or. Combined arms will require Mobile Anti Tank platforms (Jeeps/NAIMCA's), Armour as well as CAS from Armed Helos.

IMO Armour goes along way in not only providing fire support to Troops but also cover for dismounted infantry.

Attack helos cannot be in the air forever.They would also have ltd. time on station and at what range? Where would the bases be to support them? Secondly anti-air weaponry has vastly improved over the years and study US/NATO/Sov. casualties in Afghanistan,etc.,where high no. of helos were losy to small arms,AAA systems and MANPADS.When we're having such problems with border infrastructure,imagine setting up an IA helo full-fledged base facility. The light tanks would be airlifted to the high alt. airstips.landing grounds revitalised which are closer to the border.,where the terrain makes it possible to operate light tanks and AVs ,a great asset to the infantry. As I've explained in earlier posts,it isn't beyond the capability of the current DPSU AV manufacturing units along with pvt. entities to develop our variant of the Sprut,The LT would also be v.useful in other terrain,amphib ops,etc.This design is one that fits all situs.

Is that on a T-Series chasis or the Arjun series?? Also that looks like quite a hit that the trawl roller has absorbed in the clearance procedure. Wonder how many such hits it can take before requiring replacement??

Bala Vignesh wrote:Agreed!! But does it necessitate an apple to Apple solution for this?? I would think not. It would be better to handle this with other assymetrical methods. One such eg is jeep mounted ATGM, purpose built for this situation. Or if armoured units are an absolute must then get some of those Vijyantas back in action and permanently position them there, attached to the Ladakh Scouts ( convert 2 of the 3 battalions of the regiment as Mech Inf Bn or as an armoured squadron)Those along with the Rudra's and LCH's should really be sufficient to handle the threat of Chini LBTs, IMO.

Vijayanta is 40ton plus saar if you add all the gizmos and ERA tiles it is heavier than current T72s currently deployed by IA defeat the purpose of "light tank" an APC with Nag missiles launcher will suffice, missiles can be stored in the space meant for soldiers (30 to 40 missiles) 10 of them will stop any armored putsch as easy as drinking morning chai regardless of size or weight or type of foe armour

if armor can be done away with using Active Protection Systems and still keep the light tank light?

Mature -We know of the Russian Areva and the Israeli one, how effective are they is an open question, no specifics

Guided projectiles probably can be dealt with while the direct rounds from tanks maybe a bit too fast, so this light tank better take the first shot or have a higher range

light -As an anecdote, there was a news report in recent times where a BMP was used for night patrol on the LoC and it was targeted with RPG, both the BMP and the soldiers survived, and we aren't talking anything less armored than that

Cheap and Small are optimizations -Isn't there a plan for a BMP based CIWS and now the technology progress is towards using lasers

vasu raya wrote:Mature -We know of the Russian Areva and the Israeli one, how effective are they is an open question, no specifics

Guided projectiles probably can be dealt with while the direct rounds from tanks maybe a bit too fast, so this light tank better take the first shot or have a higher range

light -As an anecdote, there was a news report in recent times where a BMP was used for night patrol on the LoC and it was targeted with RPG, both the BMP and the soldiers survived, and we aren't talking anything less armored than that

Cheap and Small are optimizations -Isn't there a plan for a BMP based CIWS and now the technology progress is towards using lasers

one word "vaporware" BTW CIWS system weighs 80 tons with one gun and radar it is as large as 3 BHK mumbai apartments.

Philip wants as many usable weapons fast. Import looks like most viable route. Russian as they are inexpensive.If Indian weapons are available then he bats for them;His heart is for INDIA.*I talked to hem in so long ago on phone and it was like schoolmates.

Philip wants as many usable weapons fast. Import looks like most viable route. Russian as they are inexpensive.If Indian weapons are available then he bats for them;His heart is for INDIA.*I talked to hem in so long ago on phone and it was like schoolmates.

His ancestor fought at Assaye for the English!!!

above all that must be commended for his composure despite of endless potshots at him by almost everyone

Philip wants as many usable weapons fast. Import looks like most viable route. Russian as they are inexpensive.If Indian weapons are available then he bats for them;His heart is for INDIA.*I talked to hem in so long ago on phone and it was like schoolmates.

His ancestor fought at Assaye for the English!!!

above all that must be commended for his composure despite of endless potshots at him by almost everyone

Agreed, I have been one of those who have lost their patience and lashed out at him. He is a good man indeed.

I still think he is a Russian sitting on his Linux computer running Gentoo, living in Siberia somewhere, paid to be part of BR.

I am sure Philip Saar will not mind when I say this...I actually met him at a BR Meet 17 years ago on 14 Aug 2000 near the Naval Dockyard at Mumbai. Sandeep Unnithan was there as well at the meet, along with Kapil Chandni and so was BRF member Bharathan...not sure if he is still around or what name he goes under now. A whole bunch of other folks were there as well at the meet. On that day Philip Saar looked every bit as Russi onlee An interesting gentleman, stands out from the crowd. Fairly soft spoken, but highly attentive. Watches everyone and everything.

I believe the day before, I visited the then INS Viraat, a Sindhugosh Class boat and INS Delhi. Got a tour of the innards of all three vessels. I still remember the XO of INS Delhi saying the following, "Welcome to INS Delhi. After the tour of the vessel, you will have seen everything the navy has to offer." She was less than three years old at the time and she was state-of-the-art. She will be 20 years this November. Will be retiring soon. How time flies!!! Still remember the engine room (noisy!!!) of the Delhi. And the chai we were served in the helo hangar...oh bloody amazing. The best chai I have ever had in my life. Nothing has come close to date. The biscoot was good as well But the hospitality shown by the naval personnel topped everything else. The navy is my favourite of all three services.

Rakesh wrote:I am sure Philip Saar will not mind when I say this...I actually met him at a BR Meet 17 years ago on 14 Aug 2000 near the Naval Dockyard at Mumbai. Sandeep Unnithan was there as well at the meet, along with Kapil Chandni and so was BRF member Bharathan...not sure if he is still around or what name he goes under now. A whole bunch of other folks were there as well at the meet. On that day Philip Saar looked every bit as Russi onlee An interesting gentleman, stands out from the crowd. Fairly soft spoken, but highly attentive. Watches everyone and everything.

I believe the day before, I visited the then INS Viraat, a Sindhugosh Class boat and INS Delhi. Got a tour of the innards of all three vessels. I still remember the XO of INS Delhi saying the following, "Welcome to INS Delhi. After the tour of the vessel, you will have seen everything the navy has to offer." She was less than three years old at the time and she was state-of-the-art. She will be 20 years this November. Will be retiring soon. How time flies!!! Still remember the engine room (noisy!!!) of the Delhi. And the chai we were served in the helo hangar...oh bloody amazing. The best chai I have ever had in my life. Nothing has come close to date. The biscoot was good as well But the hospitality shown by the naval personnel topped everything else. The navy is my favourite of all three services.

What's this mithai story??? I always thought it's related to some missile or nuclear thing.. There's was some thread with mithai in name tooSeems like there's more than meets the eye.. Seems like admiral Saar didn't treat others

ArjunPandit, only oldies know that. Mithai was promised if a certain asset joined the Indian Navy. The promise was to equal the displacement tonnage of the asset. The event happened. We have all been waiting ever since for the mithai!

I still think he is a Russian sitting on his Linux computer running Gentoo, living in Siberia somewhere, paid to be part of BR.

Some of us BRF oldies have met Philip on a number of occasions. He is as much a desi as all of us. You can meet him on his regular pilgrimage to Aero India - Bangalore. Philip stays in south India. Not withstanding his pro Russia tilt, he is as patriotic as nay of us, perhaps more. Unfortunately his support for local systems,is often drowned by his pro Russia stand.

ArjunPandit wrote:What's this mithai story??? I always thought it's related to some missile or nuclear thing.. There's was some thread with mithai in name tooSeems like there's more than meets the eye.. Seems like admiral Saar didn't treat others

Admiral Rakesh promised to distribute mithai equal to its weight when the first Akula joins Indian Navy. We are all STILL waiting for the mithai.

Rakesh wrote:I am sure Philip Saar will not mind when I say this...I actually met him at a BR Meet 17 years ago on 14 Aug 2000 near the Naval Dockyard at Mumbai. Sandeep Unnithan was there as well at the meet, along with Kapil Chandni and so was BRF member Bharathan...not sure if he is still around or what name he goes under now. A whole bunch of other folks were there as well at the meet. On that day Philip Saar looked every bit as Russi onlee An interesting gentleman, stands out from the crowd. Fairly soft spoken, but highly attentive. Watches everyone and everything.

I believe the day before, I visited the then INS Viraat, a Sindhugosh Class boat and INS Delhi. Got a tour of the innards of all three vessels. I still remember the XO of INS Delhi saying the following, "Welcome to INS Delhi. After the tour of the vessel, you will have seen everything the navy has to offer." She was less than three years old at the time and she was state-of-the-art. She will be 20 years this November. Will be retiring soon. How time flies!!! Still remember the engine room (noisy!!!) of the Delhi. And the chai we were served in the helo hangar...oh bloody amazing. The best chai I have ever had in my life. Nothing has come close to date. The biscoot was good as well But the hospitality shown by the naval personnel topped everything else. The navy is my favourite of all three services.

It was my first and one of the best BR Meets. Perhaps the best BR meet was in Bangalore during AERO INDIA 2001 OR 2003, i do not recollect. We had a host of REAL VIPS including IAF Vice Air Marshal, AOC-C of Eastern Command (i forget his name), Wing Commander Rakesh Sharma - India's first astronaut, Wing Commander Kothiyal (spelling ???) the first person to fly the LCA / Tejas etc.

For those who know the story "A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems" (viewtopic.php?t=334). A lot of person of this story, were present in the same room, each of them telling us the story. It seemed we are actually present in the same room.

Kersi wrote:For those who know the story "A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems" (viewtopic.php?t=334). A lot of person of this story, were present in the same room, each of them telling us the story. It seemed we are actually present in the same room.

The Golden Days of BR Meets

I have photos of that meet. The funniest part was the description of one Jag pilot (among those whom Kersi mentions) of the sedate way in which Late Baldev Singh had done the Jaguar flying display in the earlier Aero India show - "He took off, did a circle around whole of Karnataka and then returned". This was probably 2001I made a video of that tale of two hydraulics systems story."Tale of two hydraulics systems"

I try and be objective.if desi products make the grade,get them and fast.But very often quality suffers,the services b*tch,DPSUs ignore them,faulty ammo bursts barrels...you know the sad story.Firang deals.Abysmal negotiating by the MOD (services have no say),simply laughable in some cases (Scorpene,etc.).After sales service,spars delivery,cost,etc. unknown words in the MOD's lexicon.This lends suspicion about firang lobbies within the MOD who have been preying like parasites for aeons.Endless delays in negotiating deals (rafale) sends the prices again skyrocketing ...after selection ,so the initial "lowest price" factor becomes immaterial later on!

There is no pro-Ru bias,the facts are simple.Whether we like it or not (and I certainly wasn't responsible!),around 70% of our milware comes from Russia. Until around 2000,we couldn't get the best of the west,which was also v.expensive when compared with Sov/Ru goods.Ru/Sov weaponry was designed and built based upon their WW2 experience,mass production for large numbers in the inventory,easy to maintain,rugged,but less sophisti cated than western wares,which during the Cold War,were generally superior. In rocketry though,the Russians forged ahead esp. in the strategy of countering the USN through LR supersonic missiles with N-warheads. Adm.Gorshkov brilliantly meshed the two,warships and subs with advanced missiles,giving the RuN huge strike/anti-ship capability.We certainly benefited from this during the attacks on Karachi in '71,with our improved tactics.Adm. Gorshkov told a rel. of mine,praising the IN,"you Indians have taught us a new lesson.." towing the FACMs to Karachi.Today only Russia is providing us with its most advanced tech for N-subs,BMos missiles,other missiles,MKIs and stealth FGFAs (hopefully-by the way China formally commissioned its J-20 stealth fighter yesterday),T-90s,etc.

In armour,the T-34 was one of the winners in WW2. That "T" model has been zealously followed.The T-90 "tincan" as some love to call it,is a v.formidable MBT,lightweight,small 3 man crew,allowing for more armour and firepower since the tank is smaller,lower profile,etc.,etc.,low cost compared with western MBTs and is mass produced.UralVagonZavad have a fantastic reputation for tank production and at speed.Apart from the Armata family of AVs,their new "Terminator-2 Fire Support Combat vehicle" is another sure winner.I'm sure we can develop a lighter version of the same as well as a light tank on the SPRUT lines with added ERA armour. Both vehicles around just 20T easily air portable. The "T" series of MBTs have allowed the IA to possess a formidable strength in MBTs and when all upgrade and tank production programmes in the pipeline are completed,we will have a clear superiority over the Pakis in armour. However,integral SP air defence for ground forces needs to be quickly upgraded. Both AA guns and SAMs are reqd. I think the MANPADS tender is in the evaluation stage (?) .

Despite whatever tech we've developed for the Arjun series,we need t look beyond the classic MBT concept upon which Arjun has been based ,that of 4-man crewed western MBTs,esp. the German leopard tank which prototypes of it resembled. The Armata has brought in the automated turret with the crew in a heavily armoured protected "capsule" in the hull.The Russians talk of a future robotic tank too.In the future,tx. to automation and robotics,seen already in the use of drones for air strikes,sending in unmanned weapon systems will increase,since there are no crew to be killed or captured,making armed forces even more aggressive. Our need is for some out-of-box thinking and to develop a family of AVs as much as poss. ,at least a new FMBT and support AVs based upon the same/similar chassis and components. This will make support,spares and ease of repairs on the battlefield much more effective if components for diff. AVs are the same.The auto industry adopts the same system,esp, the Volkswagen group ,where VW,Audi,Skoda all share the parts bin for their diff. models.