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The Feminist Lie

I know this post is gonna get me a lot of whiplash (especially from my very vocal female colleagues & friends) but I feel that this is something that needs to be said about women’s liberation and how extreme it’s gotten in the past 20 years or so. First of all to get things straight; I am not against women’s rights and I believe 100% that both men & women are created equal.

Before we begin let’s define what women’s rights are. Women’s rights as defined in Wikipedia are as follows:

“The term women’s rights refers to freedoms and entitlements of women and girls of all ages. These rights may or may not be institutionalised, ignored or suppressed by law, local custom, and behavior in a particular society. These liberties are grouped together and differentiated from broader notions of human rights because they often differ from the freedoms inherently possessed by or recognised for men and boys, and because activists for this issue claim an inherent historical and traditional bias against the exercise of rights by women and girls.

Issues commonly associated with notions of women’s rights include, though are not limited to, the right: to bodily integrity and autonomy; to vote (suffrage); to hold public office; to work; to fair wages or equal pay; to own property; to education; to serve in the military or be conscripted; to enter into legal contracts; and to have marital, parental and religious rights. Women and their supporters have campaigned and in some places continue to campaign for the same rights as men.”

I agree with all the above but I think in the course of history and in our own fallen nature as human beings; the entire idea of women’s rights has turned into an ugly creature that is used very self-centredly by many people. It really bugs me whenever I hear the media and the people around me go “I am woman, hear me roar”. What is that? Why the need to be so antagonistic? I really don’t understand why there’s a need for us to purposely rub shoulders the wrong way about our differences as men & women.

In my opinion I believe women’s rights have come to a point where women sometimes use this grand and noble idea as an excuse for their character flaws & pride (which I will say now men also have but we have no ‘men’s rights’ to hide behind). To break things down a little; here’s where I feel the whole idea of women’s rights have broken down today in our post modernistic and very broken society.

It’s my rightThe spirit behind this statement is that it’s about MY rights, it’s MY body and it’s all about ME. What’s wrong with the picture here? It’s all about self. The individual. The idea of personal rights both in a woman and in men are so self-centred and this very idea of MY rights is what makes me cringe every time I’m faced with vocal supporters of women’s rights. In the pursuit for personal rights I think we’ve forgotten that we need to look outside of ourselves and not demand what is ours. Rights do not belong to us but are given. Personal rights are a gift given by others to us not the other way around. It is not to be demanded and I think in more developed nations this whole idea of rights has become so twisted that it becomes an excuse for a woman to be selfish because they see it as their right. It’s a sad, sad thing that the original idea of women’s rights is so misunderstood & misquoted in this day and age.

Equal rights non-equal treatmentThis is another thing that really bugs me. Some women want all the privileges of being equal to men but none of the responsibility. They claim their feminine weaknesses whenever they can’t make the cut and yet still demand the very same things that men have. I say this not in spite but I say this in view of the fact that men and women are created very different. Physically and emotionally we are very different. That in itself doesn’t mean that we are not equal but it just means we are different and created with different roles.

The failure of modern society here is that men have not stepped up as real men to be leaders and protectors of their families. We have not been the men that God intended us to be and that’s where everything has broken down. Women are forced into the workplace and in the course of time things have so changed now that women are forced also to take on more male traits to be successful in the marketplace. I really believe that role-wise both men and women are created different and the very nature of the workplace in itself already destroys some things about the feminity that is a very beautiful thing in women. Don’t misinterpret me here ya? I’m not saying women shouldn’t be working but I am just saying that for some reason the workplace has a very nasty habit of changing us as people because of the dog-eat-dog attitude that is so prevalent today.

On another note I must say that it really irritates me how women can sometimes demand for things and yet claim their feminity when it suits them; which I believe is not right. If we want equal rights, I think there is also a need for equal treatment and one shouldn’t be treated special just because they are of a particular gender. This whole thing about having equal rights but yet still wanting to be specially treated as women is a clear example of how our roles as men & women are different and it is a clear indication that women’s rights can be abused so easily for selfish gain. It’s very much the same as having special treatment based on race or creed; it’s just that we find it socially acceptable. The point I’m trying to make here is that we are different. Men. Women. Different.

For this I must apologise to my female readers because I think we as men have failed you in many ways because of our abdication of our role as protectors and providers in the family.

We’ve lost sight of the visionLastly I really think all of us have lost sight of the true spirit of women’s rights and women’s liberation. The real idea here is for fair treatment for women and to not put them down just because of their gender. Chauvinism is not something to be applauded but it’s something that should be stamped out. The problem we have right now is that we’ve lost sight of the original idea of women’s rights and it’s gotten mixed up with selfish attitudes of wanting what’s due to “me” rather than what’s good for everyone. I really believe women are just as capable as men and the wonderful thing is that both men & women have different strengths that complement each other.

I really hate “battle of the sex”-like topics because it is not helpful. It does not compute because men & women are just different. We both do things well in some areas and we suck at some areas too. Strengths and flaws are not the domain of gender; it’s something inherent in all of us as human beings. All of us have strengths. All of us have weaknesses. And it’s a fact that men can do some things better than women whilst women can do other things better than men. Why do we need to fight on this matter? Isn’t it counter-productive to continue to highlight the differences when we should be celebrating our differences and learning how to live with one another?

I am dreading to click publish on this post but I think this is a thought that has been sitting in me for a very long time that needs to get out there in prose. I’ve spoken about this many times with some very good friends and I think my ideas and reflections on this subject matter needs to be put to the test. I think I’m gonna come under a lot of fire for putting this up but I think I welcome it because I really believe that women’s rights has been misquoted and misused in all facets of life. Feel free to comment and I hope that everyone who reads this will take the time to digest the spirit of this piece rather than reacting to assumptions of why I wrote this.

29 thoughts on “The Feminist Lie”

Yo Chris,
Am glad you wrote this blog. Don’t care if kena fire from women lah.. Men need to speak out also if not men will continue to be treated like mice.

I think the devil has driven a wedge that is to divide and conquer.
Biblically, it is described that women were created to be a helpmate. That means men needs a helpmate. That was the original design.
With sin/selfishness/jealousy in our lives, it has tampered with the original design.

Remember the first things that Adam said right after they ate from the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.. “The woman you gave me made me eat the fruit”

There in itself was the “first-blood” that was drawn.
Out of sin, Men had to work the land, Woman had to suffer labour pains and also her heart would be after her husband/man.

These are all signs of our fallen nature. We (men & women) have to work hard in our efforts to understand each other. Instead of standing on opposite sites, we can’t help but see that Men & Women need each other. It should be OUR RIGHTS that God has given to us, to fight against the wiles of the Devil that seeks to tear the very fabric of humanity.

Men, shouldn’t abdicate the role of leadership at home, workplace and ministry
Women, should desire after God, your husband or man is not God. He is not perfect as you are. Man is flawed. Be a helpmate, for you know a man’s heart is unlike yours and your heart is unlike yours.

Both coming together builds a synergy that works together.. like how God intended it to be.

Hi Chris. Patricia (geminianeyes) pointed out this entry to me, and I had the impression that she was interested in hearing what I had to say. I don’t usually comment on blogs, though, but since you posted this (with some trepidation) online, knowing that you might get some public opinion, I hope that you’re not too resistant to differing views.

Firstly, I’m very glad for people of faith like you. It is hard to find faithful Christians these days, and it warms my heart to find those who earnestly struggle and try to live their faith in their daily lives. I need to ask though: are you Catholic or Protestant? I’m asking this because the understanding of gender is strongly related to different denominations; Catholicism has an entire theology built on it, but it’s not so obvious in Protestantism. (I was raised Protestant, but am now converting to Eastern Orthodoxy)

I’m not going to present what my personal opinions of gender and women’s rights are, because I understand that a lot of your personal understanding is related to your religious beliefs. I don’t feel it is right to present my own understanding of the telos (purpose) of gender and sexuality in Christian theology and present it to you as being what is truthful. For that matter, I don’t think you present yours very clearly, either.

So what I hope to do, nonetheless, is to help you examine your own beliefs, and maybe to strengthen and develop some of your beliefs, either for feminism or against it.

It really bugs me whenever I hear the media and the people around me go “I am woman, hear me roar”. What is that? Why the need to be so antagonistic? I really don’t understand why there’s a need for us to purposely rub shoulders the wrong way about our differences as men & women.

Now, here’s the thing: many of these women are speaking from very distinctive personal experiences. Have you listened to them? Have you listened to the story of a woman who considers abortion? Have you listened to the story of women who have been abused, sometimes sexually? Have you listened to women who might be uncomfortable because their workplace practices ‘sleeping to the top’ to succeed? As we go out on a limb, have you listened to the stories and lives who are lesbian, transexuals, disabled / handicapped, etc?

A strong element of feminism isn’t so much about developing antagonism, especially with recent movements. Yes, there are times when it can appear very dichotomic — aka “It’s all about going against men”. Not really. It’s also about listening to what women have to say about their experiences in their lives. It’s about understanding why some people are frustrated and angry, and if you recognize something as unfair, say in laws, or in something cultural, to amend it.

I presume you are Malaysian? How do you feel, for an example, if a Malay-Muslim person asks “why are the Chinese in Malaysia so angry? why cannot they just accept the laws of the country?” — it’s a similar thing.

In my opinion I believe women’s rights have come to a point where women sometimes use this grand and noble idea as an excuse for their character flaws & pride (which I will say now men also have but we have no ‘men’s rights’ to hide behind).

Actually, men do have a lot of rights. Most rights about human beings have all been designed on the basis of men as the normal standard, and women as a ‘special’ standard. But if you want to know, a great amount of study of feminism also involves studying the formation of identities of boys and men.

The failure of modern society here is that men have not stepped up as real men to be leaders and protectors of their families. We have not been the men that God intended us to be and that’s where everything has broken down.

But Chris, if we live in a fallen world, can it be reasonable that men ever fulfill their perfect telos / function / purpose as God has ordained on him?

Women are forced into the workplace and in the course of time things have so changed now that women are forced also to take on more male traits to be successful in the marketplace. I really believe that role-wise both men and women are created different and the very nature of the workplace in itself already destroys some things about the feminity that is a very beautiful thing in women.

But Chris, I don’t feel forced to work at all. On the contrary, I think that being at work has enabled me to be more fulfilled as a person. Why are you speaking on my behalf? Also, does not the book of Proverbs praise the industrious woman?

On another note I must say that it really irritates me how women can sometimes demand for things and yet claim their feminity when it suits them; which I believe is not right.

Actually, you might find several women who are against the concept of chivalry on the same basis. However, the issue is not about whether it is ‘equal right’ or not, but if it is right or wrong. Sometimes, doing things like seeing a female friend is already safe at home before driving away when you are sending them back, is not about equal treatment for the male friend, but knowing that women live in an unequal world which makes them more likely to be robbed, raped, attacked, etc.

Here’s the thing: I suspect that you are commenting on feminism and feeling uncomfortable with it because you’re not familiar with it. That’s not surprising, I was uncomfortable with it for years, because I didn’t want to be associated with ‘angry woman upset over nothing’. As I studied more about how our world is biased, not just based on sex, but on race, religion, etc., I realized that feminism is not really about setting up false dichotomies, but also examining the way we live in this world and finding out how it can, whether we realize it or not, jeopardize the well-being of others.

There’s a logical fallacy called the ‘straw man’ — it’s when you set up a false adversary or opponent and attack it. Usually, it happens when people don’t really understand who they are attacking. I think this is the case with your article on feminism.

Anyway, I hope I’ve given you something to think about. Thanks for writing this, it is brave to seek opinions even if you think that people will ‘attack’ you for it. I don’t expect to change your mind immediately, but I hope I’ve given you something to consider.

Thank you for commenting on this. I think there is so much more that can be said about this whole topic and I wrote this really to voice out my very honest wish that the media and other voices would stop their callous attitude in sharpening the differences between male & female.

The point I’m trying to make is that we are different. Men. Women. Different. We should be celebrating our differences rather than making them sharper and more apparent.

I really believe that men are meant to be more than what we are today and we fail. If you believe in sin then it’s easy to blame it on Adam and the fall of man but the fact is it’s easy to just think of ourselves rather than the people around us. Hence we have abusive spouses and other such things happening. You must admit that men are built a certain way that naturally enables us be tougher in some respects. Our physical build. Our mental processes. And even our ability to sometimes shut off our emotions when its crunch time to carry ourselves through a difficult situation in bearing the load of caring for our loved ones. Women have strengths too and it’s amazing how much more a woman can bear emotionally in caring for the family. I think women have far greater physical endurance to push on especially when I see someone like my mom who teaches and also takes care of the home. My point is has always been about differences and that both men & women complement each other.

We could continue this discussion offline or perhaps I’ll write a follow-up post. I agree with a lot of your sentiments and I am not against feminism. I am against the attitude in which the battle is carried out and I am against the vindictive way in which this arguments are carried out. Not all men have committed heinous acts against women and I think feminists tend to lean more towards the fact that men don’t understand and we are all for women being downtrodden when the very fact is that we don’t all think like that.

Of course I have a lot more in my mind and heart about the whole subject matter and this post I wrote was not written to completely explore it in its entirety. I take a middle ground in all this in a sense cos’ my belief is that we are all flawed due to sin. At the heart of it we always have a choice and I really see that all the arguments in the world fail the address the one thing that is wrong with us – the human heart. And the solution to the human heart is God really – through the forgiveness of sins that we gain by trusting in Jesus. It’s tough living out that faith after but hey it’s something that I’ve chosen to do and I really see myself a better person for it as time passes and as Holy Spirit works in me. 🙂

I’d love to discuss this offline, or you can come over to my journal anytime.

There are a few things that I’d bring up. Firstly, when we’re talking about inequalities between men and women, we’re not talking about ‘blaming the men’. Neither is feminism about supporting such rigid dichotomies like Women Rock, Men Suck. Rather, it’s about examining the power structures in society, and recognizing that many times, they are drawn on the lines of sex and gender.

Take for an example: rape. Are all men rapists? No, certainly not. My most beloved friends are not rapists either. But do they sometimes, unwittingly so, make it easier for rape to happen or to be unpunished? In many times, yes. I have friends whom I consider good men, but who don’t see the gravity of some serious sexual harassment, or jokes they make, for example. Or they might ‘blame the victim’ without knowing it.

One thing: you can’t really talk about things like ‘men and women have differences’ without resorting to very bad generalizations and stereotypes about both sexes. If I were to say ‘women appreciate beauty and should be celebrated for that’, then what about women who do not want to be recognized for being physically beautiful? What about the minorities in the male community and the female community? What about boys who have always been physically weak? You cannot say ‘celebrate differences’ without completely being unfair to people who are men, or women, and who are exceptions to the rule.

You haven’t replied if you’re Protestant or Catholic — trust me, the difference is very huge when it comes to discussing about gender, theology, and the practical application of Adam’s fall and original / ancestral sin.

There are a few things that I’d bring up. Firstly, when we’re talking about inequalities between men and women, we’re not talking about ‘blaming the men’. Neither is feminism about supporting such rigid dichotomies like Women Rock, Men Suck. Rather, it’s about examining the power structures in society, and recognizing that many times, they are drawn on the lines of sex and gender.

I agree with you on this but you must admit that for the most part most feminists do fall in the “Women Rock, Men Suck” category. Even the average woman who is not a feminist would fall somewhat in that category and I’ve heard many times from most of my female friends that men are “dumb”, they just don’t get it, etc. Do women even consider that men feel something as well and that it’s as demeaning to say stuff like that? What’s with that? Words should mean something and I think there is a very callous attitude and air about gender differences that most people take. It’s come to a point where it becomes almost an offense to even question what women’s rights really are or at the base level what rights actually mean. A colleague of mind mentioned today that in some respect rights are earned and not to be demanded for. But I believe that rights are given too. It’s a bit of both I guess.

One thing: you can’t really talk about things like ‘men and women have differences’ without resorting to very bad generalizations and stereotypes about both sexes. If I were to say ‘women appreciate beauty and should be celebrated for that’, then what about women who do not want to be recognized for being physically beautiful? What about the minorities in the male community and the female community? What about boys who have always been physically weak? You cannot say ‘celebrate differences’ without completely being unfair to people who are men, or women, and who are exceptions to the rule.

You misunderstand me here. I agree that there are generalisations but I never in any way meant that. But again you must admit even on the surface there are already huge differences between male & female. We are all made a certain way and with a specific role in mind. I don’t think I can disengage this fact from my own beliefs about God and creation. I’d like to add also that I did not in any way make any statement or comment about our differences that are general have I? I was referring to the obvious traits that make males males and females females.

You haven’t replied if you’re Protestant or Catholic — trust me, the difference is very huge when it comes to discussing about gender, theology, and the practical application of Adam’s fall and original / ancestral sin.

Sorry I did not reply earlier about this. I missed out on replying somehow because the topic at hand is just immense. I’m Protestant and I attend a charismatic church.

The fact that he has to voice his opinion so carefully and tiptoe around the raging feminists, apologizing in every paragraph and dreading the response just shows how subdued men have become.

I feel the same. I’ve stopped talking to people about gender equality because it always ends the same way:
all men but me silent, all women shouting and screaming insults at me and blaming me for all their problems.

No, feminism is not unfamiliar to me. I am as emancipated as they come. I love strong and successful women. I’m attracted to and even turned on by intelligent women and I’m happy doing housework for them (and a lot more).
Now if a guy like me feels let down by feminism and gender equality, then that just proves its failure because guys like me is what they always claim to want.

Sad truth:
Feminists have started the gender war, most women have joined in and men have lost – because they haven’t started to fight. I just hope they start soon because the longer they leave it, the worse it gets and that means it’ll be all the worse when they do start fighting. Of course its better not to have a war but thats up to women and feminists because only they are participating in it.

May I ask how have they particularly blamed you? I frequently encounter this argument when men feel uncomfortable with feminism, but I’ve not really seen anything very concrete concerning this. It’s more like ‘I feel victimized for something I didn’t feel as if I did’.

I’ll use one analogy. Granted, you may not agree with what I did, but I did it anyway: once, I expressed support for a charity that worked trying to prevent violence towards gay people and support gay marriage on a public forum. I said “Even though I am a Christian (and believe homosexuality to be a sin), I respect the rights of others to have their own lifestyle choices”.

Very soon after that, I was flamed badly. It made me extremely angry and upset. After all, I was ‘on their side’, so to speak. I was making the sacrifice from my position of privilege, and assisting them who have always complained that people like me, Christian and straight, marginalize them.

It only occurred to me later that the reason people are angry is because they have been hurt for a very long time. I used the phrase ‘lifestyle choices’. I didn’t mean to be oppressive, I meant to be supportive. But for many people who are gay, it did not feel like a ‘choice’ at all. It was something they were born with, and one that they cannot change at will.

To use an analogy — if you step on someone’s foot, and they scream at you, you shouldn’t be arguing about how they were not screaming at you nicely. They don’t really have an obligation to be nice to you. But if you are committed to helping the marginalized, and if you understand that there are values or social structures in this world that are unfair and unloving or unjust, a good thing to learn is the ability to listen and to understand what they are dealing with.

I totally agree with you on this. Not being treated nice just because you have served or helped them doesn’t mean we stop being the people that we are who care.

And I agree with you that there are many social structures and values out there that are unfair, unloving and unjust and at the end of the day it is up to each of us to make a difference from where we’re at. Our influence on people can make a huge difference.

Thanks Chris. I’m glad we can agree that there’s a lot of injustice in the world that needs addressing.

It took me a long time before I can say “all right, I think I’m comfortable with feminism”. It so often involves examining things in our lives that we often take for granted. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind with just a few comments on a blog, but I hope to have given some things for personal consideration.

It took me a long time before I can say “all right, I think I’m comfortable with feminism”. It so often involves examining things in our lives that we often take for granted. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind with just a few comments on a blog, but I hope to have given some things for personal consideration.

I’m confortable with feminism too. I just don’t agree with how it’s communicated a lot of times and the whole “Women Rock & Men Suck” attitude that sadly enough most women seem to spew in every day conversation and in attitude. I do not think that is right at all; it makes things worse and I think it makes women who do that just as bad as men in the past who treat women as 2nd class citizens. It demeans and marginalises men who work just as hard at life as women do. In fact I think all human beings work very hard at life.

Thanks for your reply. You’ve mentioned a lot of things that I can discuss with you, ranging from feminism to theology.

I think, essentially, it boils down to this. When feminists engage in some issues, the end concerns are usually very practical and pragmatic. To me, the situation is rather simple: our society is unfair and violent towards women; how do we address it?

You don’t have to feel emasculated. In fact, it’s quite the opposite: you can be actively engaged in addressing these issues. The experience that you will get, and the experience that many of my male friends have gotten, from being actively engaged in them has made them more confident and sure of themselves, and not less.

The problem is that most people are indoctrinated with feminist ideology that is based on false premises. One of those is that men run the world or have run the world. It is a tiny percentage of men who run the world and the vast majority are just as helpless and powerless as women.

Take it the other way round: Having to go out and work in a coal mine all day every day, causing major health problems, not being allowed to see your family in that time and having no other option is much more like slavery than being forced into housework. But unlike women, nobody fought for the men trapped in those lives and so they still are trapped – many of them.

@Karcy:
Those women who feel hurt because of what feminism told them are taking it out on those men who never were responsible for their pain. I don’t take my pain out on the wrong people. Hell I don’t even take it out on the right people. Its childish and selfish to do so and only makes things worse in the long run. So, no, hurt is not an excuse to pass on hurt to the innocent (or even to the guilty if you’re a true Christian).

I have a suggestion for all feminists: I know it seems crazy but have you considered POSITIVE reinforcement? I mean, instead of forbidding, demanding, blaming and hating the men who you THINK are getting it wrong, try rewarding, celebrating, loving and (heavens forbid) even protecting the men who get it right. You’ll find that there will be a lot more of them and a lot less of the others in no time.
Well, like I said, its too crazy to even consider so we’ll all have to go on with the hatred and anger.

One of those is that men run the world or have run the world. It is a tiny percentage of men who run the world and the vast majority are just as helpless and powerless as women.

But Adi, your argument is flawed. Firstly, the world is not run by only one power structure which is divided into ‘Man’ and ‘Woman’, as you yourself would admit. Each of us have certain positions where we are more privileged than others, and in other situations where we are oppressed by another.

In the case of the coal miners, they are certainly underprivileged, through the class or economic system. It doesn’t mean they have no power elsewhere. They certainly have a lot of authority in the home — no matter what, being a coal miner still means that they are the breadwinners, and control the expenditure of members of the household, which would include their wives or their children.

When feminists talk about breaking patriarchy, they are not telling men to get lost or whatever. They are merely saying: look, here is a power structure that often unfairly privileges men. Whether a single man, in a single situation, benefits from ALL those privileges is besides the point.

For an example, as a woman in Malaysia who is not handicapped, I have a lot of benefits and privileges over the handicapped. I may benefit from more accessibility to reading materials, the Internet, non-braille lifts, etc. Whether I benefit from ALL of them is besides the point. The point is that if I don’t do anything to point out and say “Look, this is unfair”, I am permitting a society and a system that gives unfair privileges and benefits to one group of people: those who are not handicapped. The handicapped have every right to point this out to me, even to be angry at me, because I have taken them for granted.

I know it seems crazy but have you considered POSITIVE reinforcement? I mean, instead of forbidding, demanding, blaming and hating the men who you THINK are getting it wrong, try rewarding, celebrating, loving and (heavens forbid) even protecting the men who get it right. You’ll find that there will be a lot more of them and a lot less of the others in no time.

Well, there are two things about it. Firstly, you don’t deserve a reward for doing what is right. Doing what is right is not an option. It is a duty. Just as you can’t give your child a cookie for doing her homework every day, so you can’t give men who ‘get it right’ a pat on the head every time they ‘get it right’. Likewise, you cannot praise drivers on the road for obeying traffic rules every time they do so.

Secondly, if you pay attention to the vast majority of feminist activism and feminist discourse, most of them *are* positive and reinforcing. Organizations like WAO, AWAM, Sisters in Islam, etc all do things like talks, awareness programmes, etc that very much involve men and women of all walks of life.

Probably, you only notice the ones that seem ‘angry’ to you. That’s the unfortunate thing, isn’t it? When feminists are gentle and want to engage in people respectfully, they don’t get noticed, and the injustice is never addressed. And for many of these feminists the issue is something with very real consequences — consequences that can really harm human lives, like rape.

One of the things I’ve heard about feminism is that it involves comforting the afflicted, and afflicting the comfortable. If you feel uncomfortable about some of the charges feminists have delivered, and if you are upset or feel blamed for something, then it’s very probable that you might have contributed, however indirectly, to an unjust system without knowing it.

Which goes back to the first question I asked you, which you never answered — exactly how do you feel blamed?

Which goes back to the first question I asked you, which you never answered — exactly how do you feel blamed?

I think what Adi means here is that some feminists really do fall into the category of targeting men and verbally attacking them whenever the opportunity arises. I find that feminists can at times be very, very argumentative just for the sake of it. Like I said before, words don’t win battles – actions are what makes a point. I think any person whether male or female would feel crummy and small if we were to come under fire like that. 😦

I have a suggestion for all feminists: I know it seems crazy but have you considered POSITIVE reinforcement? I mean, instead of forbidding, demanding, blaming and hating the men who you THINK are getting it wrong, try rewarding, celebrating, loving and (heavens forbid) even protecting the men who get it right. You’ll find that there will be a lot more of them and a lot less of the others in no time.
Well, like I said, its too crazy to even consider so we’ll all have to go on with the hatred and anger.

I totally agree with Adi on this. Positive reinforcement is the key rather than arguments and debates. No one wins really on the battlefield of words. *sighs*

I’ve mentioned this before, but standing up against sexism isn’t something that needs to be rewarded, because you shouldn’t get a reward for doing what is firstly one’s duty. Especially, in the case when the other side of the party is not paying attention, or listening.

It’s unfortunate, but my interaction with Adi just proves my case. He thinks that it’s some kind of personal attack when feminists point out that there are social structures that unfairly benefit men. It’s merely an invitation to re-analyze the social structures you live in, and I am subject to that analysis just as well (for example, in not being handicapped).

The arguments and debates, in many cases, are absolutely necessary, because some of these concerns are enshrined in things like laws. It’s necessary to bring up issues about racism in Malaysia and how racism is ingrained in the legal system, sometimes making it difficult for people to have opportunities for study. It’s not always pleasant, especially for those who benefit from the system. But if we push them under the carpet, the injustice will continue.

When feminists engage in these issues, they often are engaging on a very pragmatic, real-life level. A large number of girls and women in the world are not getting adequate healthcare or education. You can still be bullied or harassed into a bad position at work. Rape victims still get blamed, and rape is still trivialized (remember the incident in the National Service camp where a girl was raped by 20 other people? the camp trainers asked her to return to camp).

Are people standing by and uninvolved in these cases contributing in some way to this injustice? Maybe yes, maybe no. Often, the problem is very subtle. You might enjoy reading Malcolm Gladwell’s Blink — it’s not about feminism, it’s about how we make subconscious decisions that reveal our unintentional racism or sexism.

You’re right Chris. Its insulting to men to be rounded up with the worst examples of men.
What is FAR worse however is that this is done to boys too and they are very vulnerable to such indoctrination. Especially as the educational systems are also largely feminist that means that a lot of this is happening. Children can’t defend themselves against hate like that and its a disgrace that the feminists have actively pursued that method or even only allowed it to happen.

As it stands now, feminism is doing a lot more harm than good (you have no idea how much) and if I was a feminist, I would consider it my duty to fight for straightening out the goals and returning to the original cause: equal rights.

@Karcy
It’s a pity you ruined your hand full of good arguments by exposing yourself as one of those blame-the-men feminists. Let me get this straight.
You say, this is how it goes:
1) Feminists blame me for a system that (supposedly) existed long before I came into being.
2) I feel blamed and upset (surprise).
3) Therefore I contributed to that system.

Of course you’ll say now that I misinterpreted you and that I’m so full of anger that I don’t read your comments etc. (either way it’ll be my fault) but I’ll just let the readers make up their own minds about it.

Sadly I’ll have to agree with you on this. I see men being emasculated tremendously and that we’ve lost what it means to really be male. As much as feminism has done good I think it is more destructive now in the hands of those who do not truly understand the true meaning of why feminism came into being in the first place. 😦

Instead, I’m going to ask very pointed questions. They are relevant, because if you don’t address them by yourself, you cannot meaningfully say that you support women’s rights or equality.

In what way have you addressed the problem of sexual harassment in workplaces?

In what way have you addressed the problem of domestic violence and abuse in people’s homes?

In what way have you addressed the difficulty of inequality in education for women?

In what way have you addressed the problem of lack of healthcare for them?

In what way have you listened to women who are undergoing problems in the home?

Social structures are such that even if they come before my existence, if I don’t prevent them from continuining, then I am supporting them. Using the handicap analogy: sure, people invented things like staircases only in buildings before I came into being. But it’s my duty as a person to see that people also invent lifts for the handicapped, and also equip that lift with Braille buttons.

As I mentioned time and time again, feminists often deal with very practical, pragmatic issues. Many times, women are shortchanged by laws, or by subconscious prejudice in society. It’s fine and dandy to talk about some kind of abstract level where men and women can live in complete harmony with one another, where men have taken their true place of leadership and women are perfectly happy and well-protected.

That abstract level, unfortunately, is not the reality of many people in the world today, for both men and women. And unfortunately, we have to engage on a very realistic level, not an abstract or theoretical one.

I think we’re missing the point here. I don’t think Adi is questioning the cause of feminism. I think we are both questioning the effect of it especially int he way feminism is being preached. On the practical level we already see men embattled and losing their grasp on what it means to be a man. I think some of the freedoms that have been won by feminism is being abused every single day. The average guy gets berated and abused verbally just because a woman can do it. Does anyone address stuff like that? No. No one does. Because no one cares to think that words contribute to the problem – sadly the “Woman Rocks, Men Sucks” feminist contributes a lot to that. How many feminists take the more balanced stance? And if they do, why do they contribute to to the “Woman Rocks, Men Sucks” mentality by verbally contributing to it in every day conversation and interactions with men? I don’t think this is something that we can ignore cos’ it happens every day in many places all over the world. This is what I am unhappy with and it’s something that doesn’t get airtime at all. On that same level men are guilty of this by being sexist but we all know about that and acknowledge it but do women acknowledge that they contribute towards sexism too in their mentality and words? I think it’s pride that fuels it all. No one wants to admit they are wrong do they? While I agree with you Karcy I think you’re not arguing on the same topic as what Adi & I are on. I don’t think we’ve attacked feminism at all. Read all our previous comments and replies to this. If you continue on this course we’ll go round and round the mulberry bush la.

@Karcy
I won’t answer to an interrogation like that. You’re presupposing that only women can be victims and only their problems should be addressed. You’re also presupposing that I’m guilty unless I answer the way you want me to.
I could turn all those questions around and throw them back at you. How have you addressed discriminations of that kind towards men? If you don’t think they need addressing or (far worse) don’t even think they exist, then that means you’re not for equality at all and have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO QUESTION MY INTEGRITY.

Like Chris said, we’re not even talking about women’s rights here. The fact that any gender-related discussion turns into a discussion about only women shows how gynocentric the world is and how one sided we’ve all been looking at it.