This is a discussion on Poker Software (e.g. PT3/HEM) Randomness Testing Question within the online poker forums, in the Poker Software & Tools section; I have a question for the experienced users of PT3 and HEM (or any other tracking software): to what extent can one "test/verify" randomness in

I have a question for the experienced users of PT3 and HEM (or any other tracking software): to what extent can one "test/verify" randomness in the dealings.

I am not asking about verifying that the observed outcomes statistically agree with what one should expect: I am asking what sort of tools (if any) are available to test for randomness. If none are available, then is anyone out there doing it themselves?

I would like to provide a (perhaps overly simple) example:

Assume the Hero and Villain agree to flip a presumably fair coin. After 100 outcomes, the Hero observes

H H H H H ....

(100 heads); as the Hero expects roughly 50 of the outcomes to be 'T', he begins to suspect that the coin isn't fair.

Consider a similar situation where, after 100 outcomes, the Hero observes

H T H T H T...

(50 repetitions of "H T") ; should the Hero be satisfied that the coin isn't "rigged" (i.e. the outcomes are truly "random") just because he observed the expected number of "T"'s?

I am seeing responses to "rigged accusations" (as baseless and idiotic as they may be) with somewhat hollow arguments. I am curious to know what (if any) other tests people are using to test for "fairness".

Cheers,

docStats

#2

7th May 2010, 12:16 AM

bigjoker66 [570]

Online Poker at: Carbon/Bodog

Game: nlh/plo/Std8

You are asking if the sites are random and how to test that. Then at the end you say test fairness.

If you want to observe randomness just look at the hole cards you are dealt or just flops seen over a number of hands and you should see each card about the same number of times.

If you want to observe fairness (depending on how you define fairness) you probably need to be looking at hole cards and flops and showdowns. That's a more fuzzy subject.

#3

7th May 2010, 12:22 AM

WVHillbilly [22,659]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Read the rigtard thread. The deals, at Stars and FTP at least, have been proven fair many many times over. Idiots still persist though.

#4

7th May 2010, 2:57 AM

IcyBlueAce [790]

Online Poker at: FTP

Game: Holdem'

I use PT3 and know for a fact FTP isn't rigged.

#5

7th May 2010, 3:17 AM

PlayedYou73 [698]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Like 'em all

re: Poker & Poker Software (e.g. PT3/HEM) Randomness Testing Question

I am not asking about verifying that the observed outcomes statistically agree with what one should expect: I am asking what sort of tools (if any) are available to test for randomness. If none are available, then is anyone out there doing it themselves?

When you look at the observed outcomes over 'many many thousands" of hands and find that they statistically agree with what one would expect...then you can be fairly certain that the process "is" random.

If they did not statistically agree, then you could infer that some part of the process was not random.

I use PT3 all the time. The process is ultimately random...no matter how many times my aces get cracked by crap.

#6

7th May 2010, 4:27 AM

docStats [65]

Online Poker at: Nowhere....

Let me clarify my point (and address some other points that were brought up).

I am not accusing any sites of anything. I have nothing to do with "that" thread; I am curious about other properties of random behavior. For example, we all know that poker can be a "streaky" game (and this "streakiness" can be tested) -- are people doing this? E.g. A sequence of 50/50 coin flips can include different types of runs than, say, a sequence of 20/80 coin flips

I have asked a similar question to someone who's examining some 1.6 billion hands (purely for investigative purposes to **discredit** "rigtard" accusations); I was wondering if anyone here was analyzing their hands in this manner.

#7

7th May 2010, 8:28 AM

No Brainer [1,854]

Game: Titties

I'm still not sure what you are asking... Do you want to know if we are getting our hands dealt randomly? If so here is my pre flop hand chart. Only 70k hands so I am sure they are still coming together but it looks fairly good to me.

I do like the fact that I have had AKs 0.06% more than 83s...

#8

7th May 2010, 10:03 AM

IcyBlueAce [790]

Online Poker at: FTP

Game: Holdem'

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubzy11

I'm still not sure what you are asking... Do you want to know if we are getting our hands dealt randomly? If so here is my pre flop hand chart. Only 70k hands so I am sure they are still coming together but it looks fairly good to me.

I'm still not sure what you are asking... Do you want to know if we are getting our hands dealt randomly? If so here is my pre flop hand chart. Only 70k hands so I am sure they are still coming together but it looks fairly good to me.