America’s Protestant pastors overwhelmingly reject the theory of evolution and are evenly split on whether the earth is 6,000 years old, according to a survey released Monday by the Southern Baptist Convention.

When asked if “God used evolution to create people," 73% of pastors disagreed - 64% said they strongly disagreed - compared to 12% who said they agree.

Asked whether the earth is approximately 6,000 years old, 46% agreed, compared to 43% who disagreed.

A movement called Young Earth creationism promotes the 6,000-year-old figure, arguing that it is rooted in the Bible. Scientists say the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.

The Southern Baptist Convention survey, which queried 1,000 American Protestant pastors, also found that 74% believe the biblical Adam and Eve were literal people.

“Recently discussions have pointed to doubts about a literal Adam and Eve, the age of the earth and other origin issues," said Ed Stetzer, president of LifeWay Research, a division of the Southern Baptist Convention, in a report on LifeWay’s site. “But Protestant pastors are overwhelmingly Creationists and believe in a literal Adam and Eve.”

The phone survey was conducted in May 2011, sampling ministers from randomly selected Protestant churches. The survey had a margin of error of plus or minus 3.2 percent, LifeWay said.

A 2010 Gallup poll found that 40% of Americans believe God created humans in their present form, versus 54% who said humans developed over millions of years.

soundoff(6,504 Responses)

False Dichotomy

cbinal, you fool, you undermined your own argument with this quote:
Einstein on God: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

Spinoza's god is nature – impersonal, abstract, the physical laws of the universe. Einstein even clarifies his meaning by spelling out that he does not believe in a god "who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." (that would be the Abrahamic god of Christians and Jews)

February 14, 2012 at 3:53 pm |

False Dichotomy

ugh, sorry – did it again. This was intended to be a part of the "dueling Einstein quotes" string.

Btw, whatever Einstein did believe doesn't actually have any bearing. It is ultimately an appeal to authority as opposed to a proper argument.

February 14, 2012 at 4:02 pm |

cbinal

Haha – I didn't have an argument saying Einstein believed in God. Everyone was posting quotes from Einstein on different subjects – that's a quote on his belief. I think you can see from my other post about Einstein – I called him a fool for his beliefs.

February 14, 2012 at 4:05 pm |

Blind CS

No, I'm not judging anyone. Yes, only God can judge. I'm just raising awareness of the blissful and sobering realities of the Spiritual realm. If momoya has not committed unforgivable sin, she still has the opportunity to prostrate herself before God and receive forgiveness and entrance behind the pearly gates.

February 14, 2012 at 3:17 pm |

momoya

I appreciate your concern.

February 14, 2012 at 3:36 pm |

Terry

Why would a nice, loving god require anyone to "prostrate" themself in front of it? Sounds like quite the jerk of a god that you've been whorshipping there, CS. Maybe you should find a better one, or none at all.

February 14, 2012 at 3:46 pm |

jimtanker

And just what, pray tell, is an “unforgivable sin”?

February 14, 2012 at 4:15 pm |

Wayne

@Blind cs

"Science has NOT answered the question about creation or "evolution".

How in the world could you say that? There isn't one thing anywhere that points to a supernatual creation ex nihilo. There is tons of evidence that supports evolution. Why don't you just admit the truth? You won't accept anything that contridicts your favorite fables no matter what? At least then you would be honest. If that's not the case, then state what you accept to change your position.

February 14, 2012 at 2:58 pm |

WASP

@wayne: i guess you have noticed also that blind only responds to posts that he can argue; back him into a corner and he dodges you. lol

February 14, 2012 at 4:13 pm |

Wayne

Yes and it only futher exposes his and their intellectual dishonesty. He read it, knew he could not answer any part of it without lying, and ignored it. But the worst part of it all is, he will still believe he's right.

February 14, 2012 at 4:17 pm |

momoya

@cbinal

You make grandiose statements that you can't back up. I guarantee you that if we met in person I could convince you that I had "the spirit" within me. You claim that you would somehow know that I didn't, but all we have is your protests. You have no such power.

What if I stuck you in a room with a bunch of people and some of them were atheists with a background in church. What if you (or the holy spirit within you) determined that one or more of the atheists had "the spirit"? Would you disbelieve in the spirit you claim to have or would you find a way to rationalize away your incorrect guesses?

February 14, 2012 at 2:54 pm |

cbinal

Everything I have told you is from the Bible – but, obviously you don't understand. Hahaha – place me in that room – I'm around them all the time in church.

February 14, 2012 at 3:53 pm |

Blind CS

You are getting up there in age, and it is time to at least consider the living arrangements of your eternal home. Do you want to live in a comfortable crystal mansion or a sub terrestrial cave filled with sulfuric acid and rat feces?

You have the free will agency to decide whether or not to (a) accept a belief in God or Christ as redeemer and live with Him for eternity or (b) a life of sin and death that leads to the grave and an eternity of conscious punishment and regret.

Be aware of the fact that there is no serious interpretation amongst scholars, theologians and common everyday folks that considers the Bible to be myth. That’s your lonely marginalized interpretation.

February 14, 2012 at 2:52 pm |

LOL!

You have to use fear to get people to believe in your cult – that is what is so hilarious. LOL! By the way your heaven and hell doesn't exist.

February 14, 2012 at 2:55 pm |

jimtanker

You're right. There is no serious interpretation that it's a myth among christian scholars. Real scholars on the other hand laugh at the christian scholars.

February 14, 2012 at 2:59 pm |

Wayne

So you are unable to convince with a rational logical argument so you result to the fear of hell card? People like you remind me of Buzz light year. He really truly believed he was a space ranger, he really thought his laser was real. In reality he was just a toy and his laser was just a flashing red bulb. That's you, in reality there is no heaven, no hell, and you are just in a delusional fantasy land. Grow up buzz.

February 14, 2012 at 3:04 pm |

It Could Happen

What if the real god respects and rewards those who used their brains with logic and reason instead of being blind followers and insufferable mindless sycophants?

You all (even Paul of Tarsus) will be peeling gra.pes and fanning the thinkers with palm fronds for eternity.

Aren't fantasies fun?! :)

February 14, 2012 at 3:04 pm |

momoya

Blind CS

How can you trust a being who would build and maintain such a place as hell? Doesn't sound like the behavior of a trustworthy individual, does it?

February 14, 2012 at 3:09 pm |

WASP

@blind cs: you are getting up there in age, and you should be thinking about your eternal home.
you haven't made any of the accomplishments befiting a true warrior so you will have to eat scraps off the floor of the more renoun warriors......as my self. you haven't earned the right to enter valhalla so you will not find peace.

see how rediculus you sound. there have been religious that out date yours' by thousands of years. polytheistic beliefs came first then your little faction showed up and spoiled the party. so think really hard about which "god" you follow......are you 100% sure it's the correct one? if there is even a gleamer of doubt in your heart of the slightest smudge on that shiney armour of yours'.....you wouldn't be living in a shiney palace either. god doesn't take kindly to those that judge others, that's his job only.

February 14, 2012 at 3:11 pm |

Blind CS

I'm not judging anyone. Yes, only God can judge. I'm just raising awareness of the blissful and sobering realities of the Spiritual realm. If momoya has not committed unforgivable sin, she still has the opportunity to prostrate herself before God and receive forgiveness and entrance behind the pearly gates.

February 14, 2012 at 3:16 pm |

Fallacy Spotting 101

Root post by Blind CS is a form of the flawed argument known as Pascal's Wager, and contains the False Dichotomy fallacy.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#H6

February 14, 2012 at 3:49 pm |

momoya

@cbinal (Repost of my reply below so you don't miss it)

At the time I was a "believer in the fact that sin has seperated men from God and the only way to regain that relationship is to accept Christ as my savior, that his sacrifice was sufficient to pay my sin debt and restore me to a righteous relationship with him. That's what I believed, and I asked him for forgiveness. I should have, as the Bible tells us, received the Holy Spirit which guided me in all things, in this case understanding the Bible." However, that spirit does not exist as is evidenced by the thousands and thousands of different interpretations and denominations.

That spirit can not be lost, because it cannot be had. It isn't that I had the spirit and lost it, or thought I had it, but didn't; it's that the spirit does not exist. If the spirit did exist, there wouldn't be arguments over scriptural meaning by believers who have that same spirit.

When you say this: "The mere fact that you say you were sincere but, now believe it is all a myth and you are here bashing it, tells me you never did." You are being stupid because the bible itself says that it is possible for believers to "fall away." Of course it's more convenient for you to believe that former christians never had the magic decoder ring that you claim to have because it allows you to feel smug and superior in your faith that christianity is a real power. You don't want to admit that somebody who believed they experienced god can realize that it was the only the power of suggestion, and not real.

Here's the quandary, cbinal: For over 4 and 1/2 decades I thought I had the spirit, and not a single christian around me believed that I did not have the spirit. Many of them thought of me as the strongest christian they ever knew able to train others in "the word." How is that I fooled myself and every single believer around me? How was it that all the people with the spirit couldn't spot the one person who didn't, but merely thought she did? The spirit sure is worthless at warning the true believers about the those who only think they're true believers, huh?

February 14, 2012 at 1:54 pm |

Blind CS

@momoya:

The Bible is not mythology. There has never been any serious viewpoint amongst scholars and theologians that considered the Bible to be a myth. Apart from your atheism buddies, you are certainly a loner in this department. The ancient writers and scribes understood the difference between Greek mythology and their writings. There were multiple floods in ancient times and one of them just happened to be during Noah's lifetime.

Science has NOT answered the question about creation or "evolution".

Further, for someone like you who has claimed to have read the Bible multiple times, you would not have adopted the viewpoint of mythology. The Bible is certainly not mythology. Even a first grader can tell you that.

February 14, 2012 at 1:31 pm |

Doc Vestibule

The bible is not mythology?
Is Gilgamesh mythology? He is mentioned in the Bible. Even has a flood story.

You believe that a man lived in the digestive tract of a whale and survived?
That a 500 year old and his two sons repopulated the entire earth?
That snakes, donkey and flaming foliage can talk?
That a boat 450 feet long and 45 feet wide with only one 18 inch window could have supported habitats for every kind of creature on the planet, not to mention feed them all with no ready food sources for over a month?

The Old Testament is an apocryphal history of the Jewish people.
The New Testament is a softening up of the OT vengeful, smitey God to try and sell Him to the gentiles.

February 14, 2012 at 1:44 pm |

jimtanker

The difference between someone who is religious and someone who uses science is that the person who follows religion thinks that they already have the answers and will not attempt to seek the truth even when what they believe is obviously a lie. Science is the pursuit of truth and when something that is held to be true is countered with outstanding evidence against that belief then a rational person will change that belief. Furthermore, in science it is ok to say “I don’t know”. In fact it is s good thing. It helps us to strive to find the answers to those big questions like how the universe came to being. It also helped us to discover how evolution works, which is a fact by the way. There are reams of evidence that prove that evolution is fact now matter how much you want to believe that it isn’t.

And please, don’t throw out your personal definition of the word “theory”. It will just make you look more idiotic than usual.

February 14, 2012 at 2:01 pm |

momoya

Blind CS

Yikes! I used to sound quite a bit like you. I am sorry that you don't believe I have read the bible many times. Were you here, in front of me, I could prove it, but no big deal.

Science hasn't answered a lot of questions; you're correct. Mystery abounds, but there's no reason to shove all that mystery into one singularity and call it god. And it's better to say "I don't know" then make stuff up. If your god really did create me, then he created me with the reasoning that I use to proclaim the bible to be a complex fairy tale. Why would he do that?

February 14, 2012 at 2:41 pm |

Primewonk

" There has never been any serious viewpoint amongst scholars and theologians that considered the Bible to be a myth. Apart from your atheism buddies, you are certainly a loner in this department. "

Really? As for your 2 creation stories being factual – the 12,000+ professional theologians in the Clergy Letter Project disagree with you. As for your Jesus, read the papers from the Jesus Seminars.

So, are you merely wrong? Or are you lying?

February 14, 2012 at 3:26 pm |

jimtanker

Einstein's obituary, please read the last line:

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own – a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbour such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms. (Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955)

February 14, 2012 at 11:36 am |

cbinal

Einstein was an extremely intelligent man, but, a fool. Wisdom doesn't come from intelligence. I worked with some of the most intelligent people on Earth who can barely tie their shoes or drive a car – intelligent fools who can't reason beyond anything they know. There's an old saying Intelligence created the atomic bomb, wisdom is knowing when not to use it.

February 14, 2012 at 11:57 am |

False Dichotomy

Isn't it curious how the greatest thinkers of our history all just happen to be incapable of "wisdom?" Perhaps cbinal's idea of wisdom (ie, a stubborn belief in things that by all objective standards appear to be untrue) is not all that accurate.

February 14, 2012 at 12:43 pm |

Blind CS

Here I have to agree with cbinal. Einstein was a great scientist, but has some really terrible quotes.
Also, he was wrong about the nature of quantum theory and that was a black eye for him within the realm of science.

Bear in mind that Einstein was an Ashkenazi Jew. Therefore, he would NOT have had a particularly sympathetic view of Christ or the Bible.

February 14, 2012 at 1:03 pm |

cbinal

Wow! Somebody actually agreed with me on something. I think his quotes over so many years were all over the map when it came to God – so, no, Einstein is not a good one to quote on these subjects, I don't think he really wanted to offend anyone.
@False To you that would be correct, seeing as how I believe as the Bible says, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

February 14, 2012 at 1:44 pm |

False Dichotomy

@Blind CS: there is nothing about that quote that is specifically a criticism of the bible or the Christian worldview, it is equally critical of Jewish beliefs. I don't think your hyper-awareness of his Jewish heritage has any relevance here, except that it hints at some of your biases.

February 14, 2012 at 1:44 pm |

jimtanker

Fear is the way to wisdom? What kind of crud is that? Logic and reason are the only ways to come to wisdom. After we get rid of religion we can finally progress as a species.

February 14, 2012 at 1:55 pm |

GodPot

"feeble souls harbour such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."

Christian reply: We are not Feeble!! We are just incapable of taking responsibility for our actions and must blame things on invisible demons who are attacking us and the only way we can fight back is to close my eyes and bow my head so I can commune with the creator of the entire universe who knows me and listens to me. Oh, and we are so not egotistical...

February 14, 2012 at 2:17 pm |

cbinal

@Jim Fear in the Bible means Respect and Reverence. Logic and reason only breads intelligence not wisdom. In your terms, without God, wisdom is learned through experience and respect for the way things operate. An unintelligent person can still be wise.

February 14, 2012 at 3:29 pm |

cbinal

@Jim – of course you would think that – I copied the quote word for word, but as usually, you interpret it in a way that suits your thinking.

February 14, 2012 at 11:02 am |

cbinal

Sorry – wrong place

February 14, 2012 at 11:03 am |

Blind CS

Here's some guidance on the Biblical text.

Step 1: read the Bible.

Step 2: read guidance material that covers every book in the Bible. The guidance should be based on the widely accepted scholarly and theological viewpoints. Popularity and consensus do not always equal truth, but they are more likely (at least 95% of the time) to get it right than you. Their opinion is based on their overall knowledge of the language, psychology, bible, history, culture, theology, literary devices and perhaps to a lesser extent: science. A limited amount of debate is acceptable and expected.

Step 3: re-read the Bible.

Step 4: repeat step 2 as needed.

February 14, 2012 at 10:46 am |

momoya

Blind CS

I'm a fairly old woman, and I have done as you suggest for many, many decades. I've probably read the bible more times than you've read any book at all. I could preach for 10 hours straight without covering an issue twice and without making any theological or biblical errors. As wise as I am, it took me many, many years to realize that the bible just doesn't make sense as anything other than a collection of myths.

Christians and scholars disagree on the faith and the interpretations of the bible because all there is is differing opinions of how the bible should be dealt with in different areas. There's no one, demonstrable method whereby you can determine the correct meaning. (For example, the flood could not have happened as described, and different christians have different ways of dealing with this fact. But what is important is that you cannot have reached that conclusion with any biblically supported method of determining what is literal and what is not–christians had to wait for science to deliver the answer, and THEN and only then could they start explaining why the passage is not literal. If science did prove a worldwide flood, the christians would have claimed that the story was always meant to be literal and that science "proved" the bible correct).

February 14, 2012 at 11:07 am |

cbinal

@momo You've been reading a letter written to someone else, of course you don't understand it no matter how many times you read it. You have to have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior to understand it.

February 14, 2012 at 11:26 am |

jimtanker

Step 1: Read bible WITH AN OPEN MIND.
Step 2: Realize that it is just a book written by man to control man and treat it as such.
Step 3: Lather, rinse, repeat.

February 14, 2012 at 11:39 am |

momoya

cbinal

I didn't think to mention that I was a christian during that time.

February 14, 2012 at 11:51 am |

jimtanker

“You have to have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior to understand it.”

Because an all powerful being couldn’t think of a better way of doing things than this. Don’t you realize how silly this is? Now you can go ahead and throw in your silly argument for free will.

February 14, 2012 at 11:54 am |

cbinal

@momo "I didn't think to mention that I was a christian during that time." You just proved my point with that statement. You don't understand it.
@jim Unlike my other Christian friends I don't have a silly argument for free will. I don't think God is a puppetmaster but, I believe everyone has an opprotunity to accept his gift.

February 14, 2012 at 12:09 pm |

momoya

@cbinal

Again, you're going to interpret reality to coincide with your religious beliefs. I was a christian in any way I know to reference the word. I believed wholeheartedly, I prayed and believed I saw evidence of the supernatural hand of god, and my faith was unshakable. The cool thing about a house of cards is how easy they are to collapse.

I certainly don't expect to meet with your standards on the matter because it doesn't benefit you. Classic christian behavior.

February 14, 2012 at 12:26 pm |

Know What

momoya,

I related my similar story as a former believer yesterday on another board here. This is what I was told!

"just sayin
"Know what know what,you never knew God, you thought you were a believer but were deceived, had you continued to judgement you would have been told 'begone I never knew you'. Those God chooses are never lost to Him.
February 13, 2012 at 2:51 pm "

Like chopped liver, we were just not "chosen" like these "special" folks :(

Wonderful posts by you all around - thank you.

February 14, 2012 at 12:42 pm |

cbinal

@momo and Knowwhat – so what were you a former believer in? Experiences? A religion? Or were you a believer in the fact that sin has seperated men from God and the only way to regain that relationship is to accept Christ as your savior, that his sacrifice was sufficient to pay your sin debt and restore you to a righteous relationship with him. If that's what you believed and you asked him for forgiviness, then you should have, as the Bible tells us, received the Holy Spirit which will guide you in all things, in this case understanding the Bible. That spirit can not be lost. The mere fact that you say you were sincere but, now believe it is all a myth and you are here bashing it, tells me you never did.

February 14, 2012 at 1:20 pm |

momoya

@cbinal

At the time I was a "believer in the fact that sin has seperated men from God and the only way to regain that relationship is to accept Christ as my savior, that his sacrifice was sufficient to pay my sin debt and restore me to a righteous relationship with him. That's what I believed, and I asked him for forgiveness. I should have, as the Bible tells us, received the Holy Spirit which guided me in all things, in this case understanding the Bible." However, that spirit does not exist as is evidenced by the thousands and thousands of different interpretations and denominations.

That spirit can not be lost, because it cannot be had. It isn't that I had the spirit and lost it, or thought I had it, but didn't; it's that the spirit does not exist. If the spirit did exist, there wouldn't be arguments over scriptural meaning by believers who have that same spirit.

When you say this: "The mere fact that you say you were sincere but, now believe it is all a myth and you are here bashing it, tells me you never did." You are being stupid because the bible itself says that it is possible for believers to "fall away." Of course it's more convenient for you to believe that former christians never had the magic decoder ring that you claim to have because it allows you to feel smug and superior in your faith that christianity is a real power. You don't want to admit that somebody who believed they experienced god can realize that it was the only the power of suggestion, and not real.

Here's the quandary, cbinal: For over 4 and 1/2 decades I thought I had the spirit, and not a single christian around me believed that I did not have the spirit. Many of them thought of me as the strongest christian they ever knew able to train others in "the word." How is that I fooled myself and every single believer around me? How was it that all the people with the spirit couldn't spot the one person who didn't, but merely thought she did? The spirit sure is worthless at warning the true believers about the those who only think they're true believers, huh?

February 14, 2012 at 1:51 pm |

cbinal

@momo – I do feel sorry for you that you experienced all of that. Because I believe that is a major problem with Churches now as you can see on this report about Southern Baptists cannot agree either. I like you have studied for decades and have taught every class in the Church. And what I see breaks my heart, people like yourself who have spent so many years in churches learning and listening and gaining on head knowledge that doesn't grow. Again, the way I know is from your statements, and if I would have been in your classes that you taught I would have known. The statement you made that the Bible says believers can "fall away" – you and so many others have misinterpretted, you're taking it out of context – that is found in Hebrews 6 right? It is saying just the opposite – it is saying it is impossible for them to fall away. Hebrews is about Christ being our High Priest and that his sacrifice, unlike the sacrifices of animals, was sufficient once and for all. That's why it goes on to say in that chapter that if you could lose it, it would be impossible to come back again seeing as you would have to crucify Christ again.

February 14, 2012 at 2:09 pm |

jimtanker

It breaks my heart to read that she spent so many years as a zombie. I’m glad that you have released the mental shackles momoya and can now think for yourself.

February 14, 2012 at 2:13 pm |

LOL

"I do feel sorry for you that you experienced all of that. Because I believe that is a major problem with Churches now as you can see on this report about Southern Baptists cannot agree either. I like you have studied for decades and have taught every class in the Church. And what I see breaks my heart, people like yourself who have spent so many years in churches learning and listening and gaining on head knowledge that doesn't grow."

No, we woke up to the fact it's a brainwashing cult and it's all in your head, which just recently science proved. I too would have knocked you socks off when I use to be Christian but I am so glad I finally woke up. I am so much happier, more fulfilled and full of love then when I was a Christian. Christians breed hate and prejudice towards those that don't agree with them, just look at the posts on this blog. I am hoping more people will wake up, then it will be a new day.

February 14, 2012 at 2:17 pm |

cbinal

I'm truly glad you guys are happy now, I can tell. You can also say you are fulfilling scripture (read 2 Thes 2.): "Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;...For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way."

February 14, 2012 at 2:35 pm |

Happy VD everyone!!!!

@-}–

February 14, 2012 at 10:04 am |

>3 >3 >3 >3

@}-

February 14, 2012 at 10:05 am |

<3 <3 <3 <3

oops

February 14, 2012 at 10:05 am |

BG

Venereal Disease???

February 14, 2012 at 11:41 am |

Tom Edison

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfj04KbPpm4&w=640&h=390]

February 14, 2012 at 9:56 am |

HotAirAce

Lawrence Krauss, Stephen Hawking and other scientists who publish their material for critical review have indicated how something can come from nothing, no god(s) required vs The Babble that says god exists and The Babble is true?

I'm going with Krauss, Hawking and their colleagues.

February 14, 2012 at 3:11 pm |

HotAirAce

Here's a chance for all you babble thumpers to educate this atheist.

Is there so much as a single instance of a claim made by a scientist that has been proven wrong by The Babble?

February 14, 2012 at 3:49 pm |

Blind CS

Nice Video!!

You are right, you can't get "something" for "nothing". This fact essentially destroys the cornerstone of atheistic belief.

February 15, 2012 at 12:02 am |

False Dichotomy

What? Not only does this "Debunking Evolution" consist of about 95% bible verses, it doesn't even mention evolution.

And furthermore, I get really tired of being accused of being "evil" "full of lust" and "wretched."

February 15, 2012 at 1:07 am |

tallulah13

Blind CS. you are aptly named. If you can't get something from nothing, where did your god come from? I guess that destroys the cornerstone of theistic belief.

At least there is actual proof of evolution. There is absolutely no proof that your god or any of the thousands of gods worshiped throughout history has ever existed.

February 15, 2012 at 1:15 am |

False Dichotomy

So much of the creationist agenda is driven by the unexamined assumption that if they can just prove evolution wrong they will have proven the existence of God. This is the false dichotomy – the idea that there are only two possible choices, and if one can be dismantled then the other is proven by default. This is incorrect. In fact, even if the theory of evolution were completely in error (which it almost certainly isn't), it would not make it any more likely that that creation myths are true or that God exists at all. There are an infinite number of alternative explanations that also must be considered.

In fact, history provides a number of examples of prevailing theories being legitimately undermined – for example Darwinian evolution replaced Lamarckian evolution which enjoyed much more popular support, a round earth replaced the notion of a flat one, relativity eclipsed Newtonian physics, etc, etc. It is worth noting that not once – not one single time in the history of science – has a fallen scientific theory been replaced by a supernatural explanation. In every single case they are replaced by more sophisticated scientific concepts, never has the result been that magic is the better explanation. In other words, the decline of a scientific theory has never led to greater evidence for God.

In actuality, each time a prevailing scientific theory is replaced or updated by a more sophisticated one, the God of the gaps has been left with fewer gaps to hide in.

The history of knowledge is one of prevailing explanations being replaced by more detailed, more specific, and more sophisticated explanations, and in the modern age these have always represented a progression away from magical explanations and toward natural ones. My point is that this religious agenda to undermine evolution or the age of the earth or big bang cosmology is not only misguided, it is ultimately futile.

February 14, 2012 at 1:08 am |

Nonimus

Hear! Hear! Well said.

February 14, 2012 at 9:50 am |

Dr.K.

Indeed. Excellent points. Sadly they will likely fall on deaf ears.

February 14, 2012 at 12:36 pm |

cbinal

Ahh – I'm through yawning now - just kidding, actual very well written. I would like your honest reply to this question, instead of just a bashing: Through out history, even today, millions of people have claimed to have seen supernatural events, ghosts, healing of a deadly diseases, etc., Do you write them off as not possible, there must be a scientific explanation, or something else? Maybe you see where I'm going, the reason I ask, no supernatural explanation could ever trump science if science just says "not possible", or "can't be explained".

February 14, 2012 at 6:22 pm |

GodPot

"millions of people have claimed to have seen supernatural events, ghosts, healing of a deadly diseases, etc."

Then why the heII do we only get shaky nightvision goggle cam footage of it. You would think in a world where we have over 4.2 million cameras operating 24hrs a day in the UK alone (# as of 2002) we would get something more than a jiggle or a snotty nose staring into the lense...

The more we peel away the mystery the more we see how very non-mystical this world is. Wonderful, yes, amazing, beautiful, stunning, awesome, but not supernatural, just "Super Nature".

February 14, 2012 at 7:12 pm |

False Dichotomy

@cbinal: Thanks for saying it was well-written. I think it's appropriate that you mention ghosts and faith healing in conjunction with faith because to someone who is an evidence-based thinker ghosts, faith healing, alien abductions, bigfoot, reiki healing, and religious revelations are all very similar phenomenon. And there is a pretty vast body of literature on research into why people are prone to believe such things. Confirmation bias, placebo affects, false patterns, confusing correlation with causation, and our tendency to see things the way we were taught to see them as children are some of the reasons we believe weird things. Scientists are susceptible to these biases the same as everyone else. That's why the scientific method is such a powerful tool – it is a systematic way of testing our ideas to find out which patterns are demonstrably real.

It's a common misunderstanding, and an unfair one, that scientists simply dismiss something by saying "impossible." In most cases scientists don't refuse to consider an idea because they don't know anything about it, they refuse it because it has already been thoroughly investigated and found lacking.

If you are really interested, check out some resuorces on skepticism on the web. It's interesting stuff.

February 14, 2012 at 10:54 pm |

cbinal

Thanks guys, that was my point in response to your original post. You said nothing supernatural has ever replaced a scientific theory. If science sees a supernatural event as an impossibility then of course by definition it would fail the scientific worlds criteria. Although there are thousands of cases in the medical field, I've personally seen a couple, where someone had an illness one day, but it was totally gone the next, and the doctor describes it as a miracle. I have seen a couple of people all test showed cancer, they went through all preps for chem/rad and before they started it all went away. Of course they claim they were healed because of prayers to God. The doctors said they coudn't explain I other than a miracle.

February 14, 2012 at 11:43 pm |

False Dichotomy

Respectfully, I think people often use the "miracle" to mean they can't explain something. There are not actually thousands of docu.mented miracles in medicine – even one doc.umented miracle would truly change the world. There's a pattern to those supposed miracle healings, and that is that they are all illnesses that people sometimes get better from. Even if 98% of people die from certain kind of cancer, that still means that 2% do not, and we tend to call those miracles despite the fact that it is exactly what is predicted.

If you will notice, people are only "miraculously" healed of things that sometimes go away on their own, or that they are actually being treated for with standard medicine. If people really are cured by miracles, why don't amputees ever regrow limbs, or children with Down's Syndrome ever correct their chromosomes, or physical deformities ever right themselves? These should be no harder to heal than cancer for a miracle worker. It just doesn't make sense. If the only "miracle" healings are for things that it is possible to recover from naturally, then they must not be miracles.

February 15, 2012 at 12:44 am |

Nonimus

@cbinal,
That is a valid question, thanks for asking it.

In addition to @False Dichotomy's explanation, which is correct, an alternate approach is also useful. For example, what would supernatural intervention look like, or how would one determine if something were supernaturally influenced/effected? In the case of medicine, you might do a study of intercessory prayer, to see if prayer actually had an impact, such as, "Study of the Thera.peutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients:..." (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567).

It might be argued that prayer depends on a third party, who may not like participating in studies. But what about inherent "supernatural" powers, i.e. paranormal. Well there is an ongoing challenge to verify those as well. The James Randi Foundation (www.randi.org) has million dollar challenge (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html) for anyone who can show scientific evidence of the paranormal and they have had many applicants, but no has won, yet. They are very rigorous in their conditions, testing, and what consti.tutes evidence, but they are also very transparent, in that, I think, applicants are tracked online (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43).

Not that god(s) and/or the paranormal are completely impossible, but many of the claims are actually investigated and found wanting. Many claims are not explained, but there hasn't been any "positive" evidence of supernatural influence. Things like, regrowing limbs, literally moving mountains, time anomalies perhaps, might be positive evidence of the supernatural, depending on the specifics and conditions, but none have been docu.mented, so far.

Hope that helps.

February 15, 2012 at 11:55 am |

GodPot

"I've personally seen a couple, where someone had an illness one day, but it was totally gone the next, and the doctor describes it as a miracle. I have seen a couple of people all test showed cancer, they went through all preps for chem/rad and before they started it all went away. Of course they claim they were healed because of prayers to God. The doctors said they coudn't explain I other than a miracle."

Why is it no one call's it a miracle when someone had a physical and tests done a few months ago and everything was fine but now a few months later a lump appeared, now you have breast cancer... miracle? It's didn't show on any tests and now magicly appeared, I guess we'll have to chalk it up to Muslim prayers wishing for the death of the infidels then eh?

I know several small children who are friends of my 3 year old and they all still believe in Santa so i'm not really surprised that there are those who are so intellectualy challenged they need to believe it must be miracles at work when sick people get better. I mean, how do the presents get there? It was empty under the tree last night and now there are presents, it must be Santa!!...

February 15, 2012 at 1:33 pm |

cbinal

I hate it when I can't post and can't figure out in the post what is causing it to fail. I guess I'll post my response in pieces to see what fails. Sorry if it gets choppy.

February 15, 2012 at 1:48 pm |

cbinal

@Non and False – thanks for the honest answers. I am definitely not one of those "Faith Healers", I agree that just about all of those people are proven to be frauds and the ones that haven't been, you usually find out that the miracles they claimed to perform were as you said, something that could have gone away on it's own or the medicine kicked in.

February 15, 2012 at 1:49 pm |

cbinal

Anyway, I can't get the rest to post, just trying to make my point that anything supernatural will never be accepted by the Scientific Community.

February 15, 2012 at 1:58 pm |

False Dichotomy

@cbinal, I think you are right that something supernatural would have a hard time getting accepted by the scientific community, but I wouldn't say never. It would have a hard time because nothing supernatural has ever held up to scrutiny in the past. Ever. For that reason, supernatural events are considered extraordinary claims, and as Carl Sagan famously said," Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

The science community in general requires very rigorous evidence before accepting a claim as valid. When the scientific community is solidly behind an idea, I know that idea has been heavily scrutinized and evaluated. People have worked hard to disprove that idea and have not been able to. That gives me more confidence in the results of science, not less.

February 15, 2012 at 2:17 pm |

J.W

I think one important problem something supernatural being tested by scientific method is that if it is supernatural how would you re-create the same conditions to be tested.

February 15, 2012 at 2:20 pm |

Blind CS

As the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand. Jeremiah 18:6

Don't waste your breath. We will continue to live as we want to, stubbornly following our own evil desires. Jeremiah 18:12

February 14, 2012 at 12:03 am |

GodPot

"15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Gen 2:15-17

"For the wages of sin is death," Rom 6: 23

How long would Adam had lived if he had not eaten from the tree? And a follow up question, did heaven and hell exist at that point or did God have to create them only after Adam sinned so he had somewhere to store his apparently immortal soul? Infact, why would he give Adam an immortal soul that he never intended him to use seeing as how he didn't want Adam to sin and die?

And a follow up follow up, how old would Jesus have lived to if he had not been murdered? As a perfect sinless man he would not be paid the wage of death, correct?

February 13, 2012 at 6:50 pm |

GodPot

I guess my questions were a little to deep for any Christians to answer. At that depth Christians heads tend to explode.

February 14, 2012 at 2:03 pm |

cbinal

Not too deep – just mostly ridiculous. You're asking what ifs. If Adam hadn't sinned he would have lived forever and there would have been no need for Jesus to come to earth, in which he still lives forever – therefore no need for the Bible. Heaven still exists because that's where God and the Angels are. Hell, as the Bible says, was reserved for Satan and his demons. So, that must mean he created Hell when Satan and the others fell, whenever that was, some say before he created Earth and man, some say the center of earth is actually the Hell that God created. Did that cover all of them?

February 14, 2012 at 2:59 pm |

Primewonk

" If Adam hadn't sinned he would have lived forever and there would have been no need for Jesus to come to earth, in which he still lives forever – therefore no need for the Bible."

Except, of course that Adam had no choice in the matter. Your god claims omnipotence and omniscience, thus he knew Adam would sin. Your god knew this before he created Adam. He knew it before he created the universe. There is no way Adam could have "surprised " your god and not sinned.

February 14, 2012 at 3:11 pm |

GodPot

" Did that cover all of them?" Not by a long shot.

I would not call a carpenter who sets out to build a dinner table but who keeps cutting legs to short and ends up with a coffee table a competent carpenter, let alone "infallible".

If your God intended man to live forever on this planet as it seems was the original intent, but then had to change his plans and send our immortal souls to either live with him or to spend eternity being tormented, then he doesn't sound all that infallible to me. That was the point of the "what if" examples I gave which were essentially "what if God's plan actually happened" to which you reply it's " just mostly ridiculous."

February 14, 2012 at 3:14 pm |

cbinal

@Prime – hence the ridiculousness of what is questions. Questions about what "happened" is alot different than supposing what if questions.

February 14, 2012 at 3:16 pm |

cbinal

@Godpot Nothing I say would be good enough for you. What ifs – did not happen. Therefore, what happened, yes, God knew it would happen.

February 14, 2012 at 3:39 pm |

J.W

Actually God does not claim omniscience or omnipotence. Those words are never even used in the Bible.

and many more doctrinal terms never found in the bible but are part of millions of supposed Christians daily lives.

The more you research religion, especially Christianity, you begin to realize how manmade and invented it all is and the only way to continue believing it is to wrap up all the stuff you don't want to understand or that doesn't fit with your preconcieved doctrine and label it "faith" and stuff it in the back of the closet.

February 14, 2012 at 4:19 pm |

cbinal

@Godpot and JW You forgot Omnipresent. Oh and "poop" is not in there either do we assume that none of the people or animals in the Bible, nor Christians, ever poop. How about "chicken"? Christians love some chicken.

February 14, 2012 at 5:11 pm |

cbinal

@Godspot Obviously by the words you put down, you are talking about the Catholic church. I don't support half of those beliefs.

February 14, 2012 at 5:16 pm |

GodPot

1 Kings 18:27 "And it came about at noon that E·li´jah began to mock them and say: “Call at the top of YOUR voice, for he is a god; for he must be concerned with a matter, and he has excrement and has to go to the privy. Or maybe he is asleep and ought to wake up!”

I'm pretty sure Elijah just said poop there...

February 14, 2012 at 5:17 pm |

cbinal

@Godpot – Very GOOD! You've heard that story too – I waswondering if anyone would relate the word. So, you just proved the point, the word doesn't have to be there to establish the meaning and context. So, for example, "Rapture" is in 1 Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." "shall be caught up" is the word harpazo in the Greek which is basically the same meaning as rapture. So, I'm pretty sure it says rapture right there.

February 14, 2012 at 5:41 pm |

Nonimus

"The wages of sin are death, but by the time taxes are taken out, it's just sort of a tired feeling."
Paula Poundstone

February 15, 2012 at 3:34 pm |

Darwin >> Jesus

I have not commented before. Most of these pro religion comments you bet are Americans that live in the bible belt.
You are only the Religion of where you are born. You did not pick your Religion.
Your parents did and where you were born. If you were born in India,Saudi,Pakistan, ect you would not be a Christian.

Common sense is not very common.

February 13, 2012 at 6:07 pm |

Rachel Jones

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

February 13, 2012 at 11:44 pm |

momoya

Whoa!! Hold on a minute! Nonimus just asked a brilliant question, Dumper.

"How does one tell when one is understanding the bible at a sufficiently deep level?'

What mechanism does the bible provide to "double check" a person's understanding? For example, christians love to talk about the verse that describes the earth as a circle because they say that that verse shows god understood the earth to be a sphere before man did; however, I contend that had science shown the earth to be a flat-coin shape, christians would claim that their god knew the earth was a flat coin-shape by the same verse. As Nonimus asks, what method does the bible give for a reader to determine which parts are literal and which are figurative or "allegory"?

February 13, 2012 at 5:41 pm |

Jesus>>Darwin

It's an ok question, but not that brilliant. As I already said, you have to understand that we exist to glorify God and fulfill his purpose for our life.
It is important to read every book of the Bible to fully understand any given passage. This is especially true for Genesis and Revelation. Once you read and understand creation, the Law, Prophesy and the fulfillment through Christ in the NT, you are in a better position to comprehend an individual passage. If you just simply open the Bible and read a scripture without prior knowledge of the entire book, you won't know what it is saying. It will just sound like gibberish.

February 13, 2012 at 7:23 pm |

momoya

So, no method, just opinion. What i thought.

February 13, 2012 at 7:33 pm |

Blind CS

No, I just explained the method to you. It is not an opinion.

February 14, 2012 at 12:20 am |

momoya

@Blind CS

Sorry, I must have missed it. Can you repost it? If it's not just opinion (whatever it is) then why aren't all christians and bible scholars using it? Why don't you christians agree on all interpretation if there is only that one method?

The Ancient Greeks knew the Earth was spherical as early as the 6th century BCE. Eratosthenes estimated the Earth's circu.mference in approximately 240 BCE.

February 14, 2012 at 10:15 am |

Blind CS

Step 1: read the Bible.

Step 2: read guidance material that covers every book in the Bible. The guidance should be based on the widely accepted scholarly and theological viewpoints. Popularity and consensus do not always equal truth, but they are more likely (at least 95% of the time) to get it right than you. A limited amount of debate is acceptable and expected.

Step 3: re-read the Bible.

Step 4: repeat step 2 as needed.

February 14, 2012 at 10:43 am |

GodPot

step 5: Think about all the things in life that apparently God created but doesn't want you to spend any time enjoying because he'd rather you had your nose in an old mudled history book. See there, out the window, theres a beautiful ray of sunshine glinting off beads of water that have collected along the sides of a soft pink rose bud that has yet to open itself to the world. The smell to is intoxicating, like the air after a spring rain, crisp and sweet with a hint of brine from the sea thats just past the horizon. All of this supposedly crafted in such detail, but all witht he purpose of housing our immortal souls for just brief moments before we are whisked away into some unkown horror or delight.
step 6: close the book, put it back on the shelf with the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Mesopotamian and other ancient history books and go outside and spend some quality time with this beautiful planet and your family.

February 14, 2012 at 2:47 pm |

Jesus>>Darwin

@cbina

The universe is at least 14 or more billion years old. The Bible does not conflict with this statement.

February 13, 2012 at 4:59 pm |

AGuest9

Except the pesky 7 days nonsense. Actually, using the bible, the Earth is approximately 5,772 years old, which is obviously, blatantly wrong.

February 14, 2012 at 10:21 am |

cbinal

Actually the Bible conflicts heavily with that statement. And if I'm not mistaken, I don't even think the evolutionist think the Earth is 14 billion years old. They claim the Universe is 14 billion years old and the Earth younger. Which I might add that within my lifetime of 40 years the Universes age has gone from 28 billion years to 14 billion years all because of the Hubble Telescope - haha what a joke.

February 14, 2012 at 11:38 am |

Doc Vestibule

@cbinal
What's a joke?
The revision of theories based on new data?
If science did not amend itself when new information is discovered, the technological progress you've witnessed and enjoyed in your lifetime would not have happened.
Were scientific theories static -( like most religions are) – we'd still be living in the wild.

February 14, 2012 at 12:55 pm |

cbinal

@Doc "What's a joke? The revision of theories based on new data?" The Joke is scientists were dead sure by all calculations that the Universe was 28 billion years old – if you asked them back then it was no theory, it was fact. Then they move the telescope from ground based to orbit, how many miles is that?, and all of the sudden they can shave off just a little, 14 billion years. It would take you the rest of your life, and then some, just to count to 14 billion but, "oh we just adjust our theory because of new evidence." Please. So, is it a theory or fact? You seem to indicate theory. What happens if they put a telescope on Mars – does it drop to 7 billion?

February 14, 2012 at 1:55 pm |

Doc Vestibule

A theory is what one or more hypotheses become once they have been verified and accepted to be true. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. Unfortunately, even some scientists often use the term "theory" in a more colloquial sense, when they really mean to say "hypothesis." In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.

No scientist worth their salt procalims any theory to be immutable fact.
The core of the scientific mindset is constant questioning.

Infallibility is for religion.

February 14, 2012 at 2:00 pm |

cbinal

@Doc Well put! I couldn't agree with you more. Now if you can just let these other folks on here know that none of this is fact – but, just accepted by scientists. And I wouldn't say infallibiity is for religion – I would say infallibility is for God.

February 14, 2012 at 2:43 pm |

Doc Vestibule

@Cbinal
You understand that gravity is a theory as well, right?
The details of that theory have been refined and changed over the years, but it still is considered valid.
All physics is theory – but we can still launch satellites into orbit and calculate trajectories.
All biology is theory – and yet we are able to devise new and better medical treatments based on those theories.
The practicalities of the theory of evolution are applied on a daily basis by thousands of people all over the world in different fields of expertise.
The proof is in the pudding.

February 14, 2012 at 2:51 pm |

Primewonk

" The Joke is scientists were dead sure by all calculations that the Universe was 28 billion years old – if you asked them back then it was no theory, it was fact. Then they move the telescope from ground based to orbit, how many miles is that?, and all of the sudden they can shave off just a little, 14 billion years. It would take you the rest of your life, and then some, just to count to 14 billion but, "oh we just adjust our theory because of new evidence." Please. So, is it a theory or fact? You seem to indicate theory. What happens if they put a telescope on Mars – does it drop to 7 billion?"

This, of course, is a lie. In the first half of the 20th century, some scientists theorized the oldest stars were about 25billipn years. But by 1958 Sandage and others using a refined Hubble constant, spectral data, red shift data, etc. refined the theoretical age.

It is your right to choose to be ignorant. But wearing that ignorance as a badge of honor is just sad.

February 14, 2012 at 3:03 pm |

cbinal

Doc – "The practicalities of the theory of evolution are applied on a daily basis by thousands of people all over the world in different fields of expertise." As in??? Can you name something that does not pertain to trying to prove it or to prove a new species, etc. – practical science?

February 14, 2012 at 3:42 pm |

cbinal

@Prime My point – in the 70s and 80s when I was in school it was taught as fact, no questioning it, that's the truth. And then just a few years later – woops we were wrong it's cut in half now, have a good day. I'm not a scientist but number 1 that's a huge jump, and number 2 the explanation then was that our atmosphere affected the red shift therefore the numbers were wrong. Hubble in orbit will give more accurrate numbers – Wow! What a difference – slighty off.

February 14, 2012 at 3:46 pm |

Doc Vestibule

@cbinal
Practical application of the science of evolution include:
Bioinformatics, managing fisheries for greater yeilds, resistance management in medicine and agriculture.
The evolutionary principles of natural selection, variation, and recombination are the basis for genetic algorithms, an engineering technique that has many practical applications, including aerospace engineering, architecture, astrophysics, data mining, drug discovery and design, electrical engineering, finance, geophysics, materials engineering, military strategy, pattern recognition, robotics, scheduling, and systems engineering.
Phylogenetic analysis, which uses the evolutionary principle of common descent, has proven its usefulness in tracing genes of known function and comparing how they are related to unknown genes helps one to predict unknown gene function, which is foundational for drug discovery. It is also a core principle of epidemiology since it allows the identification of disease reservoirs and sometimes the tracking of step-by-step transmission of disease.
Humans have used artificial selection for hundreds of years, choosing those traits we find desirable in plants and animals and propogating them down teh genetic line.

February 14, 2012 at 4:23 pm |

cbinal

@Doc You should have just said you believe Evolution is reponsible for everything. Geez. And you don't call that a religion?

February 14, 2012 at 5:04 pm |

GodPot

"If science did not amend itself when new information is discovered" it would be called religion.

"woops we were wrong it's cut in half now, have a good day." If only religion was able to accept new data as quickly and assimilate it we might not have had people being killed for believing the world was round at a time when the Church held a different opinion. My wife was in the hospital and the doctors thought they knew what was wrong and were treating her but realized the treatments weren't having an effect and ran more tests and found it was something else that was far more rare. I'm glad the doctors immediately stopped using the other drugs and started using a treatment that worked as soon as the new test information was recieved instead of some egotistical doctor saying "No, I can't be wrong! My first diagnoses must be correct and it's the new test data that must be flawed!"

February 14, 2012 at 5:04 pm |

Doc Vestibule

@Cbinal
It isn't religion.
It is a theory whose five laws have been proven true for the last 150 years in many seemingly disparate scientific disciplines.
It is elegant in it's simplicity, yet vast in it's scope with demonstrable, repeatable and numerous practical results.

February 14, 2012 at 7:26 pm |

cbinal

@Doc Common Descent is the only one that makes sense the others don't. Interestingly the genetic world that traces back what would be the ultimate common ancestor calls the file Eve.

February 15, 2012 at 12:06 am |

False Dichotomy

Domesticated animals are the experimental proof of evolution. It's that simple

February 15, 2012 at 1:14 am |

Doc Vestibule

@cbinal
Mitochondrial Eve is not the biblical Eve.
Nobody is searching for Adam's rib so they can extract Eve's DNA.
I was involved in Operation Abacus for the Canadian Forces – but we didn't use any kind of beaded contraptions...
All 5 laws make sense and have been proven sound countless times in thousands of experiments for 150 years.
The world is not constant, nor recently created, nor cycling, but is changing; and the types of enti.ties that live on it also change. These alterations take place through the gradual change of population rather than the sudden production of new individuals. In every generation some individuals survive and reproduce better than others. Their genes multiply.

February 15, 2012 at 8:12 am |

Jesus>>Darwin

@ cbinal:

I believe in the true literal interpretation of the Bible and NOT the popular fundamentalist interpretation.

The point is not to re-translate or interpret (that's been done already) the Biblical text at a superficial level, but to explain it.

February 13, 2012 at 4:51 pm |

Nonimus

How does one tell when they are understanding the Bible at a sufficiently deep level?

You said, "How does one tell when they are understanding the Bible at a sufficiently deep level?"
That is easy. If you agree with Jesus>>Darwin then your understanding is sufficient, otherwise it's not. Duh!

February 13, 2012 at 4:58 pm |

Jesus>>Darwin

@Nominus:

When you realize that the purpose of life is to glorify the God and to make disciples of all people through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

February 13, 2012 at 5:07 pm |

Nonimus

@Jesus>>Darwin,
If I accept that, then aren't I believing in you, not the Bible?

February 13, 2012 at 5:15 pm |

Patrick

Linguistically, explanation requires interpretation. You cannot read a semiotic form and not perform an interpretive act. Reading is interpretation. Without interpretation, they would be meaningless symbols.

February 13, 2012 at 5:35 pm |

Jesus>>Darwin

No, it is not according to what I say, but what God says in his revealed word.

February 13, 2012 at 7:04 pm |

Jesus>>Darwin

@Pat

Yes, there is a true interpretation of the word. We learn through exposition of this true interpretation without re-translating or re-interpretation.

February 13, 2012 at 7:27 pm |

Nonimus

@Jesus>>Darwin
"No, it is not according to what I say, but what God says in his revealed word."
But isn't that just your interpretation of God's word? Is there no inherent check within the Bible itself to ensure that, as a reader, I am understanding correctly?

February 14, 2012 at 9:57 am |

kenrick Benjamin

GodPot -what if you were God as your name implies, what would you do.

February 14, 2012 at 3:09 pm |

cbinal

Just realized you directed that at me – as so many others – whew! OK – question then what does evening and morning mean? Billions of years? Can God make something look old or does he have to wait on Evolution?

February 14, 2012 at 3:50 pm |

kenrick Benjamin

Cbinal- You are God and you are asking me.

February 14, 2012 at 4:33 pm |

cbinal

@Ken – Hahaha – funny. Look at the top of the post.

February 14, 2012 at 4:58 pm |

kenrick Benjamin

Cbinal- I know, let GodPot reflect on that for a moment he will eventually answer all his questions.

February 14, 2012 at 5:15 pm |

GodPot

Kenrick – I answered in the thread below where you also asked the same question.

February 14, 2012 at 6:09 pm |

Kenrick Benjamin

GodPot- very funny.

February 15, 2012 at 11:32 am |

kenrick Benjamin

Nonimus- If you ever Study the Bible, You will find that knowledge is not all, Like I have sent you to Proverbs Chapter 3 verse 19-21 and you still fail to get it. There is Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding, we may have Knowledge today however what I have notice is a lack of wisdom and understanding.

February 21, 2012 at 9:51 am |

Jesus>>Darwin

Adam and Eve were literal human beings, but be warned that Genesis likely includes elements of both allegory and enigma.

February 13, 2012 at 3:38 pm |

momoya

How is it a warning?

February 13, 2012 at 3:52 pm |

Nonimus

So were Adam and Eve allegory or enigma?

February 13, 2012 at 4:36 pm |

Jesus>>Darwin

Adam and Eve were neither, but literal.

The warning is against any type of misunderstanding of the text based on a superficial reading.

February 13, 2012 at 4:43 pm |

momoya

yawn

February 13, 2012 at 4:53 pm |

GodPot

I see, so take anything that science has not been able to difinitivly disprove as literal, but anything that has been disproven like the Genesis accounts age of the universe as allegory. Quite brilliant really, it's like saying "Here's our story and were sticking to it, except for any parts which may be proven false which may be disregarded at no cost to the rest of our story, which as I said, were sticking to..."

February 13, 2012 at 5:16 pm |

Nonimus

@GodPot,
Most contracts these days have a severability clause; isn't it a miracle that the Bible speaks of such a wonderful technicality before any lawyers existed.

February 13, 2012 at 5:21 pm |

WASP

@JD=bumper: where in this statement do you see literal anything? " genesis 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." then of course you have back in Genesis 1:26-27, which states “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; then it god said " Genesis 1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them."
so let me get this correct, god created us then created us again later in his book? and in genesis 2:7 he puts man first then female but in genesis 1:26 he created only man but in genesis 1:27 he went back and created us again along side a female. so if i take this literally, god created three males,and one named adam or named the fourth adam,then created one female along with us then took from the rib of adam to make eve......so he placed a total of 4 males and 2 females. so how can adam and eve be taken as literal anything? no adam ,no eve ,no sin ,no god. now that is logic,if your very first story of our creation is as you say litteral, then i believe your god forgot a few things, like how he created something then forgot he created it to just create it again.......

February 13, 2012 at 5:27 pm |

GodPot

I'm curious what you think would have happened to your literal Adam & Eve if they had not eaten of the forbidden fruit. It seems to say that the wages of sin is death, so what if they had never sinned? And if the original intent was for man not to sin and die, would he have continued living? And if he continued living what would be the need for inventing heaven and hell in a wold where no one dies? Were heaven and hell created at the same time as the universe or at the same time as Adam or only at the moment Adam sinned?

February 13, 2012 at 5:27 pm |

kenrick Benjamin

GodPot-What if you were God as your name implies, what would you do.

February 14, 2012 at 3:13 pm |

GodPot

"What if you were God as your name implies, what would you do."

Well thats an easy one, I would personally meet each and everyone of my creations who I had given free will, should be easy enough to do as God. I would not require them to follow my every command since if I wanted that I wouldn't have given them free will in the first place. Then I would snap my fingers and destroy heII since there would be no reason to keep tortured souls around just to torture them.

After that I would form a united government for earth with a parliment selected from every racial and social group and there would be no arguing over who is selected since I would personally pick them and divinely transport them to the floating island of justice that orbits the earth. And eveyone could live as they please, no prayers are required, no penance, no ritual, just one rule, treat your neighbor as you want to be treated. Those who do not abide by the new world law can choose to go live on the new wild terraformed planet Mars since they obviously need a few more thousand years of social evolution and tribal living in the wilderness to be humble and caring humans.

After that I would probably create some purple nebula's by smoking some green star systems...

February 14, 2012 at 6:05 pm |

Kenrick Benjamin

GodPot- If it's so easy tell me how you create this here Universe, lets star with that.

February 15, 2012 at 8:43 am |

GodPot

"If it's so easy tell me how you create this here Universe, lets star with that."

If you are commenting on my "thats an easy one" comment from above, I meant it was easy for me to think what I would do if I were God. However you seem to be hinting at the question "Well if you think its so easy how do you create the universe then?" which answers itself in your own supposition of "if I were God" which by your definition means I can do anything, exist before existence, create before creation, fart and destroy the universe, sneeze and recreate it, anything I want since I would only be using the powers you Christians have given your God. You put no limits on him since that is the only way around your conundrum of nothing comes from nothing, but here we are, so either there has always been something in one form or another (energy, dark matter, etc.) or there has always been something in a supernatural form, i.e God. And to explain how God could have always existed you are forced to give your God unlimited power, because no other explanation fit's your tiny dust particle sized brain. So, when you ask what I would do as God you are hypotheticly giving me all the powers of your God, which from that perspective makes anything easy.

February 15, 2012 at 1:18 pm |

Kenrick Benjamin

GodPot-You as God is ridiculous, all you have done for someone who was asking so much questions about why this and that,is show your lack of knowledge. When you have not shown me anything that you would have done any differently, since you claim to know so much.

February 15, 2012 at 2:32 pm |

Kenrick Benjamin

GodPot. I asked you if you were God, what would you do. I taught that you were going to do something different, read your Bible, the Jews already been there done that. Like the Bible stated Knowledge, Wisdom and understanding is what created this Universe, Get some and then you wouldn't be asking the idot questions you ask.

February 15, 2012 at 3:07 pm |

Nonimus

"if I were God which by your definition means I can do anything, exist before existence, create before creation, fart and destroy the universe, sneeze and recreate it..."

....Priceless

February 15, 2012 at 5:13 pm |

GodPot

"You as God is ridiculous, all you have done for someone who was asking so much questions about why this and that,is show your lack of knowledge."

Did you know the word "gullible" isn't even in the dictionary?

February 15, 2012 at 7:38 pm |

kenrick Benjamin

GodPot- Stop Smoking.
Nonimus-it seem like you are smoking some of what GodPot is Smoking.Read your Bible it states in Proverbs Chapter 3 verse 19-21 That God used Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding to create the Universe including the Earth.

February 16, 2012 at 7:32 am |

Nonimus

@kenrick Benjamin
"Read your Bible it states in Proverbs Chapter 3 verse 19-21 That God used Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding to create the Universe including the Earth."
But doesn't it say just before that that wisdom is a tree... how's that work? Oh, right metaphors.

February 16, 2012 at 10:48 am |

tallulah13

It cracks me up when people make claims like the one made in the original post. I can make wild claims too!

How about this? My neighbor's dog is sending messages to the alien mother ship using the cone around her neck (poor thing!) as a radio dish. I have exactly the same amount of proof that "Jesus>>Darwin" does for his/her claim.

Of course, the neighbor dog is much nicer than the god of the bible because she won't make you suffer forever if you don't throw the tennis ball when she wants you to.

February 16, 2012 at 11:00 am |

Kenrick Benjamin

Nonimus- You don't believe, so what does it matter to you.

February 16, 2012 at 11:14 am |

Nonimus

@Kenrick Benjamin
"Nonimus- You don't believe, so what does it matter to you."

It matters to me because, "Survey: U.S. Protestant pastors reject evolution, split on Earth's age" and "In ranking, U.S. students trail global leaders" (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-12-07-us-students-international-ranking_N.htm) seem to go hand in hand.

February 16, 2012 at 12:18 pm |

Kenrick Benjamin

Nonimus and you believe that's because pastors reject evolution. Very Funny.

February 16, 2012 at 12:29 pm |

Kenrick Benjamin

Nonimus just curious what does the global leaders believe.

February 16, 2012 at 12:43 pm |

Nonimus

I think that there is a correlation between many American's views on evolution, often dogmatically taught by pastors as incompatible with the Bible, and the state of science education in America, yes, I do. Don't you?

February 16, 2012 at 1:45 pm |

Kenrick Benjamin

Nonimus- When America was the Global leader what did we believe.

February 16, 2012 at 1:58 pm |

Nonimus

Kenrick Benjamin,
It was easier then because we lead in education, one of the first nations, I think, to have mandatory public education. But the world is becoming more and more educated. Us learning what we learned 30-40 years ago doesn't cut it anymore. Us learning creationism 50-60 years ago, also won't cut it today.

February 16, 2012 at 5:57 pm |

kenrick Benjami

Nonimus- Why it won't cut it today.

February 17, 2012 at 3:31 pm |

Kenrick Benjamin

Nonimus-They say if you want to solve a problem, start with yourself. Lets start with you, here is your problem. I sent you to the book of Proverbs in the Bible, instead of you reading the book, you look for the first thing that you can contest, come back and tells me it says a tree is wise, it's another metaphor. Instead of thinking what is being said to you. Then you tells me that you care. So since you care, answer this and you will see what the problem you are talking about is. A tree has no legs yet, it's off-springs can be found all over the forest, How is that.

February 18, 2012 at 10:39 am |

Nonimus

@Kenrick Benjamin,
Yesterday's knowledge won't cut it, because one, there is more known today than 30-50 years ago and two, the minimum requirements have changed. For example, when your neighbor only knows how to add and subtract, then knowing multiplication and division is enough to be more knowledgeable and capable. Continuing the metaphor, today everyone knows Calculus.

I find it ironic that your phrase says "start with yourself" and yet, where do you start? With me. Perhaps, I'm not the one who isn't "thinking [about] what is being said to you."

You sent me to a verse in the Bible and implied that it was the answer to how God created the universe. I was simply pointing out that if you take the Bible literally, it can lead to rather odd conclusions, which, I thought related back to the original posting about Adam and Eve, and the article, in that the book of Genesis in particular, and the Bible as a whole, were/are being taken far to literally.

February 19, 2012 at 2:32 pm |

kenrick Benjami

It is yesterday's knowledge and yet still, you who suppose to have today's knowledge did not know what it ment.

February 21, 2012 at 7:34 am |

kenrick Benjamin

Nonimus- just Curious have you ever study the Bible and not just read it.

February 21, 2012 at 8:56 am |

Nonimus

@kenrick Benjamin
"It is yesterday's knowledge and yet still, you who suppose to have today's knowledge did not know what it ment."
What are you talking about? If, by "it", you are referring to the Proverbs verse, that is hardly today's knowledge and I don't claim to have (all of) today's knowledge.

"just Curious have you ever study the Bible and not just read it."
In the way you probably mean? No, I'm sure I haven't.

The original posting was about a literal Adam and Eve and the article was about Pastors rejecting evolution. Regardless of what the Bible says, or what you claim it *means*, the evidence overwhelmingly supports evolution and the implication is that a literal Adam and Eve would be very unlikely, if not impossible.

February 21, 2012 at 11:18 am |

kenrick Benjamin

Nonimus- Since you haven't study the Bible then my argument with you is futile Because you are looking at things from one perspective and that is of Knowledge. When I showed you where it states that it was Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding that created this Universe, Have a nice day.

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.