Watching combine and Jones is out performing Green. I know it's a glorified workout but Jones looked better in the field drills as well. Green dropped several balls and didn't look good coming out breaks either.

dude's physical, so much so the comparison I keep hearing is Hines Ward (peeks). I also love the way he played against sparty on.

Great combination (if as good as advertised) of Speed and Toughness. The latter really sorely needed in a division that includes Pittsburgh and Baltimore.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

I've liked Jones for a couple years. I think the choice between Jones and Green comes down to the offense you're in. I also think Green, from what I've seen of him in interviews,etc seems to be more the stereotypical WR diva that drives me nuts.

Still think Jones adds far more value in the run game but I wouldn't let the combine determine which is the better player. Let the stuff on the field and in the games/practices make that determination.

Two different types of receivers in the games they played though I don't know how either would translate to different offenses than the one they played in college.

I think in a place like Cleveland, Jones would play out better with the fanbase.

with guys like Ward and Hillis being pushed as the faces of this new team, why not add another guy who plays physical at WR?

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

Green is the better route-runner, and better yet he's a smart route-runner. He can gain a step when facing man-to-man and knows how to work zone coverage. He also has better hands, hands down. Not to mention (McShay, maybe) believes he, if anyone, could be inserted into any offense.

I'll take that guy. You take the guy who can run in shorts for 40 yards in a straight line without anyone around him a little better.

Yes, Jones is a great WR, is tougher to gain separation and a better blocker--but he's not better than Green.

Peeker--Both Jones and Green were highly regarded while being recruited out of high school. According to Rivals, both were 5-star recruits, both were in the top-10 in the entire class and they were 1-2 in their position in 2008.

Loo wrote:Green is the better route-runner, and better yet he's a smart route-runner. He can gain a step when facing man-to-man and knows how to work zone coverage. He also has better hands, hands down. Not to mention (McShay, maybe) believes he, if anyone, could be inserted into any offense.

I'll take that guy. You take the guy who can run in shorts for 40 yards in a straight line without anyone around him a little better.

Yes, Jones is a great WR, is tougher to gain separation and a better blocker--but he's not better than Green.

Peeker--Both Jones and Green were highly regarded while being recruited out of high school. According to Rivals, both were 5-star recruits, both were in the top-10 in the entire class and they were 1-2 in their position in 2008.

I have no issue with the combine when two like players are being compared. There's no question at all Green and Jones are 1-2 now in most people's mind. I've always liked Jones better, think you get more of an honest day's work from the kid, love his durability and toughness and yeah, I'm a bit freaked by the diva potential of Green as I've heard it mentioned more than once.

But from the combine perspective these cats are close. Is Jones faster because he was better prepared and worked harder to get and stay in shape? Because that means A LOT in the combine. Green ge lazy or is he a game speed guy? What about the BroadJump and LongJump? Don't normally care at all but in the case where there's two guys (again, either I'd give JB's balls to have) then I need to know whether this is Jones being able to coil and unload on a block or coil and outjump a DB.

I don't care about much in the combine but looking at two guys I consider really close then if one is lazy, smarter, stronger, whatever that means something. Hell yes it does.

It doesn't turn Jake Locker into Tom Brady no matter how accurate Locker looks against pylons. But it matters to me here.

Funny because this whole issue is a big part of this week's Weekend Wrap.

Whereas Jones at 12 lbs more was a full tenth faster had more explosion thru every drill and out leaped him as well .

A 4.39 forty at just under 6'3" and 220 lbs gives you both an inside presence and a deep threat which spells YAC and RAC which is key in the WCO.

SoulDawg

SD, when you say Braylon light, are you saying he's no faster than BE but weighs less? Or do you mean Braylon attitude only lighter? I must admit the first time I read you remarks I thought the latter immediately.

Of course the big difference with Green to BE is the hands and route running, both are Green strengths.

NFL Network repeatedly said to watch tape on Alabama and LSU to see the match up between Jones and Peterson. Said that when Peterson was in Jones face, he struggled to gain separation and Peterson won the battle. When Peterson backed off Jones then became free and won that match.

SoulDawg74 wrote:Did LSU play Georgia where we could see a Green/Peterson matchup?

Not last year. 2009 however, Georgia played LSU. Green had 5 catchesfor 99 yds and a TD. However, after his TD (with 1:09 left to put UGA up 13-12) he was flagged for excessive celebration, which gave LSU great field position. LSU ended up scoring and winning in the end.

No idea if Patterson covered Green (or if he even played that game). He doesn't show up in ESPN's box score, but they only show offense and turnovers.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

But I'd lock down my defensive backfield for three years with some serious young talent in Peterson, Haden and Ward with a veteran built to play safety in Sheldon Borwon extending his career there. 3 years down the road I grab a safety to replace him and don't miss a beat.

Boy oh boy would that be a defensive backfield that would be ballhawking and give teams fits and that would be witches in run support.

Like I said boys. Either one would be fine between Green and Jones. And if it turns out Jones can't off the line or create separation, and if that's not something coachable or that he can improve upon, then clearly you drop him down your sheet.

But I'd lock down my defensive backfield for three years with some serious young talent in Peterson, Haden and Ward with a veteran built to play safety in Sheldon Borwon extending his career there. 3 years down the road I grab a safety to replace him and don't miss a beat.

Boy oh boy would that be a defensive backfield that would be ballhawking and give teams fits and that would be witches in run support.

Like I said boys. Either one would be fine between Green and Jones. And if it turns out Jones can't off the line or create separation, and if that's not something coachable or that he can improve upon, then clearly you drop him down your sheet.

I like Peterson too and think he'd be a fine pick. But Im old enough to remember the late 80 Browns and 2 great CBs and a good Def backfield overall, werent able to stop Elway in both championship games and get us to the SB. We needed to get pressure on Elway and did not. Of course, I dont really know how much Marty's D gameplan screwed us in those games.

But I'd lock down my defensive backfield for three years with some serious young talent in Peterson, Haden and Ward with a veteran built to play safety in Sheldon Borwon extending his career there. 3 years down the road I grab a safety to replace him and don't miss a beat.

Boy oh boy would that be a defensive backfield that would be ballhawking and give teams fits and that would be witches in run support.

Like I said boys. Either one would be fine between Green and Jones. And if it turns out Jones can't off the line or create separation, and if that's not something coachable or that he can improve upon, then clearly you drop him down your sheet.

I like Peterson too and think he'd be a fine pick. But Im old enough to remember the late 80 Browns and 2 great CBs and a good Def backfield overall, werent able to stop Elway in both championship games and get us to the SB. We needed to get pressure on Elway and did not. Of course, I dont really know how much Marty's D gameplan screwed us in those games.

Meh.

Elway is a top 5 all time QB according to most. We lost 2 close games, mostly just due to bad luck. Having 2 stud CB's won SB's for the old Raiders in 83. They didn't choke. Having a Peterson (who can also give you about 6 offensive plays at WR a game don't forget) would be awesome.

We have almost nothing to really discuss except what we think the other teams will do, but this is still much ado about little.

AFAIC, as of today I have a list of these guys that I wouldn't throw up if we pick at 6 overall:

The rest is a matter of in Heckert (that's right, he's HMFIC now) we trust in late April. And we'll get one of those guys. I owud bet the houe on it. Then it is all about luck and development. There is no one with any credibility who can promise that Green will be better than Jones in 4 years or vice versa without knowing health, system, teammates, coaching, etc. Or Quinn or Bowers. Or Newton or Gabbert. Or Fairly or darius.

If you think you can, then you don't underatnd how this all works.

(It won't be one of the 2 QB's per what Holmgren said, tho. I don't think THEY consider either elite.)

yogi wrote:I like Peterson too and think he'd be a fine pick. But Im old enough to remember the late 80 Browns and 2 great CBs and a good Def backfield overall, werent able to stop Elway in both championship games and get us to the SB. We needed to get pressure on Elway and did not. Of course, I dont really know how much Marty's D gameplan screwed us in those games.

Believe me, I know all about that. And it wasn't Marty so much as it was that the pass rush was an ineffective Golic and Camp, an elderly Hairston and an athletic but undisciplined Clancy with Chip Banks and his wandering mind coming off the edge. That's from memory though I may have a name or two confused with the following year.Puzzuoli spelled Golic as well.

Marty went pure prevent on the 98 yarder as much because he figured his DBs were a better option to get in front of a throw or get a tip than his d-line was to get pressure.

No doubt you need balance. But this draft is so full of d-line talent you could improve the Browns d-line with your 2nd rounder if you wanted to go that way.

peeker643 wrote:No doubt you need balance. But this draft is so full of d-line talent you could improve the Browns d-line with your 2nd rounder if you wanted to go that way.

I've started to get intrigued by beefing up the DL in rounds one and two.

Consider a DL consisting of Fairley and Rubin at the DT's (Rush & Crush return!) with Mitchell at RDE and Heyword at LDE . Or take Crick and play Roth at LDE. You add that to the existing starters becoming depth, like Schaeffering.

All of a sudden your team's achilles' heel is loaded up pretty nicely. Don't forget that we have a ton of kid WR's. It seems Heckert likes some and wasn't a fan of Mangini's development / PT choices from his comments. Also, the Browns being the Browns, I can easily see Mo Mass getting a bums rush and ending up a very serviceable pro elsewhere for a decade. That's how we roll.

peeker643 wrote:No doubt you need balance. But this draft is so full of d-line talent you could improve the Browns d-line with your 2nd rounder if you wanted to go that way.

I've started to get intrigued by beefing up the DL in rounds one and two.

Consider a DL consisting of Fairley and Rubin at the DT's (Rush & Crush return!) with Mitchell at RDE and Heyword at LDE . Or take Crick.

All of a sudden your team's achilles' heel is loaded up pretty nicely. Don't forget that we have a ton of kid WR's. It seems Heckert likes some and wasn't a fan of Mangini's development / PT choices from his comments. Also, the Browns being the Browns, I can easily see Mo Mass getting a bums rush and ending up a very serviceable pro elsewhere for a decade. That's how we roll.

I'd be fine withthat too. They can go a number of ways.

Do we really think if Holmgren is banking on Colt that he's not gonna get him a new toy though? That's why I can't get past them taking Green at 6 if he's there or maybe even reaching up for Jones of Green is gone (provided they can't trade down to a spot where they could take him).

I guess if the staff really does buy into the fact they've go the right receivers we'll know early in that draft.

Until they do something like drafting 2 WR's in round 2 and David Veikune I take them at their word, Peeker. Heckert says they go BPA unless they have 2 guys with almost identical BPA. Then they'll go need. I see DL and WR, and probably 2nd CB as all about the same when it comes to need. Thus I see s push.

And we don't knw how they have these guys ranked.

Ergo, the rest is just mental wankin' meeting the Sound and the Fury. And there's only another two months left of it.

I knew it. Jones puts up insane numbers and now he's better than the consensus #1 WR since Calvin Johnson.

Track speed is not the same as game speed. There are so many reasons why running ONE forty doesn't 100% equate to football speed it's ridiculous. Different stance, wearing pads, not running a route, doesn't have to turn and look back to the ball as they run...

I'd like to see what a WR's FIFTH forty is. I want the guy that can consistently run fast if he can maintain that speed. Not saying Jones can't - but like I said, it's just one variable.

Like the Cam Newton joke discussion, we are taking a DL in the first round this year, and probably the second round as well.

We should be looking at a WR that is projected to drop to the 3rd round, because its far more likely than Green or Jones.

Julio Jones was one hell of a college FOOTBALL player. He always showed a nice all around game. He's got insane measurables, he got open, he caught the ball, and when not in route he wasn't afraid to block. AFAIK he's no bigger dooshbag than any of these guys. But since he played in a very pro - I based system, he wasn't as featured as much as he might have been elswhere.

Track speed is not the same as game speed. There are so many reasons why running ONE forty doesn't 100% equate to football speed it's ridiculous. Different stance, wearing pads, not running a route, doesn't have to turn and look back to the ball as they run...

Why is this unreasonable Red?

I have no issue with the combine when two like players are being compared. There's no question at all Green and Jones are 1-2 now in most people's mind. I've always liked Jones better, think you get more of an honest day's work from the kid, love his durability and toughness and yeah, I'm a bit freaked by the diva potential of Green as I've heard it mentioned more than once.

But from the combine perspective these cats are close. Is Jones faster because he was better prepared and worked harder to get and stay in shape? Because that means A LOT in the combine. Green ge lazy or is he a game speed guy? What about the BroadJump and LongJump? Don't normally care at all but in the case where there's two guys (again, either I'd give JB's balls to have) then I need to know whether this is Jones being able to coil and unload on a block or coil and outjump a DB.

I don't care about much in the combine but looking at two guys I consider really close then if one is lazy, smarter, stronger, whatever that means something. Hell yes it does.

It doesn't turn Jake Locker into Tom Brady no matter how accurate Locker looks against pylons. But it matters to me here.

One of my primary concerns is that, in this example, Green looks like the better prospect on film all season and then he comes to the combine and isn't quite on top of his game. We're now giving a couple of days at a combine more weight than a season's worth of film.

Now if he came to the combine lazy, over weight, didn't work as hard--that's one thing. But it's been shown that wasn't the case, he's been working as hard as anyone.

A player not working hard to prepare for the combine is worse than actually putting up a bad performance.

Loo wrote:One of my primary concerns is that, in this example, Green looks like the better prospect on film all season and then he comes to the combine and isn't quite on top of his game. We're now giving a couple of days at a combine more weight than a season's worth of film.

Now if he came to the combine lazy, over weight, didn't work as hard--that's one thing. But it's been shown that wasn't the case, he's been working as hard as anyone.

A player not working hard to prepare for the combine is worse than actually putting up a bad performance.

Agreed. If it was not laziness or lack of preparation/thought in his approach then I too discount the numbers like I did with Joe Haden.

Years worth of game speed, film and production on the field always trumps the combine IMO unless it was laziness that caused an unexpected showing. Interested to know though just how much more prep Jones put in than Green, if any. Has he potentially gotten better and narrowed the gap? Guess we'll not know that until we look back on NFL careers and, as JB said, a lot of that depends on team, offense these guys are cast into.

Julio Jones was one hell of a college FOOTBALL player. He always showed a nice all around game. He's got insane measurables, he got open, he caught the ball, and when not in route he wasn't afraid to block. AFAIK he's no bigger dooshbag than any of these guys. But since he played in a very pro - I based system, he wasn't as featured as much as he might have been elswhere.

Making him out to be Mike Mamula is disingenuous.

Ouch.

Disingenuous means I'm intentionally trying to deceive the board. Yogi nails it in that EVERY thing that I have seen says Green is the best WR in years, including Jones.

Now Jones is just as good? Or better? Really? I don't see how I'm calling Mamula here. The fastest 40 time of the WRs is Edmond Gates. When SD starts pimping him, then I'll play the Mamula card.

Like you said before, this in no way means that Jones isn't a stud as well. This 40 undoubtedly improves his stock, but to even consider that he is now suddenly a better WR prospect and draftworthy at the #6 slot OVER Green is ridiculous.

Agree, with the exception of QB where interviews and Wonderlic are, IMO, given more weight. Everyone loves the combine for the homoerotic* effect but EOD it matters much more for guys who have the potential to be drafted in rounds 3-6 than for anyone going in the top 10.

*not that there's anything wrong with that

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Red, can't figure out if we sayin' same or that different. Either way, i didn't mean to be harsh using "disingenuous". Jus saying JJ is no shorts & T workout wonder. Kid is a first rate baller.

The SEC isn't exactly a hidden conference as far as us schmucx watching games goes. AFAIC I've seen a shit load of these two over three years. I really don't give a rat's petute what any ranking schmuck say, both these two are prime number one WR prospects that when placed in the right situation with a little luck should be pro bowlers for YEARS. AJ may be fllet and Julio may be delmonico. Both are damn good eats. I'm fine with either. It is the same issue with Fairly and Darius.

Lastly, I waive my white ass in the general direction of interwebs draft ratings. Large, large grains of salt taken with all, and about 98.9999 % are by schmux who watch some you tube links and fancy themselves John McVey. The fact they have Green 1 and Jones 2 is near meaningless to me. I betchu that 19 of every 20 had Taylor mays ranked ahead of TJ Ward at S this time last year after the combine.

Personally I like Julio better but acknowledge we are probably splitting hairs.

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

The other benefit with Green in Cleveland is that Mo Mass has basically been his big brother, mentor, and friend for a long time. What does this mean? Well probably nothing but I can see it quashing some of the diva factor that worries some critics. So if all things are equal, I probably go with Green.

Phil Taylor blocked me for telling him to get to training camp. F*** that guy.

noles1 wrote:Personally I like Julio better but acknowledge we are probably splitting hairs.

SD:

This issue came up weeks ago , and as a matter of preference Ireally don't want to go receiver at six with a draft knee deep at wide ours but if I must I preferred Jones because I saw better RAC and YAC for our WCO because of his build much like Blackmonwho didn't declare , so guess that disavows red's contention , I just learned about the kid via the combine .

Edit >FYI the kid played 7 games this season with a fractured foot scheduled to have a screw installed after the combine , pretty common stuff for lineman on bad wheels , but kinda unheard of for a wideoit.

SoulDawg

Last edited by SoulDawg74 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jb wrote:Until they do something like drafting 2 WR's in round 2 and David Veikune I take them at their word, Peeker. Heckert says they go BPA unless they have 2 guys with almost identical BPA. Then they'll go need. I see DL and WR, and probably 2nd CB as all about the same when it comes to need. Thus I see s push.

And we don't knw how they have these guys ranked.

Ergo, the rest is just mental wankin' meeting the Sound and the Fury. And there's only another two months left of it.

SD:

The top ten is so good that we can stand pat throw a dart on whose left and walk away with a starter when we pick , Jones and Dareius could be our next HOFamers if either is chosen on either side of the ball from the same school, while I'd of given your left nut to draft Ingram the year they won the Championship.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

motherscratcher wrote:Or you could give the edge to the guy that doesn't need surgery on his broken foot.

That's pretty fucking crazy, though. How far would he have jumped on 2 good dogs?

Don't know..

With the lock out and all coming, seems like an injury that wouldn't hurt us in the least bit.

I took away that I was more impressed that he put up those stats while injured, and ones not to forget the holmgren and heckert just sort of shrug those sorts of things off when drafting a player (Haden, Ward, McCoy, Hardesty).

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

jb wrote:Until they do something like drafting 2 WR's in round 2 and David Veikune I take them at their word, Peeker. Heckert says they go BPA unless they have 2 guys with almost identical BPA. Then they'll go need. I see DL and WR, and probably 2nd CB as all about the same when it comes to need. Thus I see s push.

And we don't knw how they have these guys ranked.

Ergo, the rest is just mental wankin' meeting the Sound and the Fury. And there's only another two months left of it.

SD:

The top ten is so good that we can stand pat throw a dart on whose left and walk away with a starter when we pick , Jones and Dareius could be our next HOFamers if either is chosen on either side of the ball from the same school, while I'd of given your left nut to draft Ingram the year they won the Championship.

Whereas Jones at 12 lbs more was a full tenth faster had more explosion thru every drill and out leaped him as well .

A 4.39 forty at just under 6'3" and 220 lbs gives you both an inside presence and a deep threat which spells YAC and RAC which is key in the WCO.

SoulDawg

SD, when you say Braylon light, are you saying he's no faster than BE but weighs less? Or do you mean Braylon attitude only lighter? I must admit the first time I read you remarks I thought the latter immediately.

Of course the big difference with Green to BE is the hands and route running, both are Green strengths.

NFL Network repeatedly said to watch tape on Alabama and LSU to see the match up between Jones and Peterson. Said that when Peterson was in Jones face, he struggled to gain separation and Peterson won the battle. When Peterson backed off Jones then became free and won that match.

Did LSU play Georgia where we could see a Green/Peterson matchup?

SD:

Both these guys are good Yogi , I just don't see Greene going inside making those teeth rattling plays much as Braylon was useless inside, in the Clutch however he does seem to make the catch as opposed to Braylon .

If we had a downfield passing game because of his length , he might have advantages on Jones.

However as we look to employ a WCO , the bigger man who can produce Run after contact RAC , as well as YAC 9 or is that Yards after Contact (or vice versa ) would be my preference and thats Jones.

finding out he's actually faster than Greene which was unknown prior top the combine is just icing on my designs.