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From “11 Freedoms That Drunks, Slackers, Prostitutes and Pirates Pioneered And The Founding Fathers Opposed”

Leisure Typically, workers in the first industrial factories decided when they would show up and when they would go home. Long afternoon periods of eating, drinking, and sleeping were taken for granted. And the three-day weekend was the norm. Workers in many of the first major industries were normally paid for six days of work, but on Saturday they drank beer all day while on the job. The drinking usually continued through Saturday evening and into Sunday, so that on Monday the workers were usually unable and unwilling to work. This created a wonderful but now forgotten American tradition called “Blue Monday” – a workers’ day of rest following the Lord’s day of rest. Most importantly, simply by being lazy, early American workers established the idea of the weekend. Few things bothered the Founding Fathers more than the belief that leisure was a good thing. “Of all the cankers of human happiness, none corrodes it with so silent, yet so baneful a tooth, as indolence,” Thomas Jefferson told his daughters. “Determine never to be idle.” Benjamin Franklin told Americans that they should work all hours of the day in order to be virtuous. He wrote in Poor Richard’s Almanack: “It is the working man who is the happy man. It is the idle man who is the miserable man.” Benjamin Rush recommended the banning of all activities that led to “habits of idleness and a love of pleasure.”

I’m all for being productive and working hard but there should be a balance. It’s weird how much that reminds me of the stories of the grey culture in communist Russia of the 1950s. Work like a dog for the mother country, or company.

Kudos to Mr. Schramm once again for telling it like it is and not being another un-thinking Libtarded ignoramous. (Just like he did when he called out the almighty twice-beaten and Goldy’s sexual obsession, ditzy Darcy Burnout and her fictitious degree and inflated work history….LOL.)

I think if you investigated Benjamin Franklin you would find a guy who is anything but uptight with has a stick up his ass. The guy was an absolute libertine! He liked his drink and he liked his ladies…a lot!!

On another topic, is it true that there’s a part of the health care bill that requires people who sell gold to report to the government (via Form 1099) who they sell their gold to? If so, why is this little ditty in a bill about health care, and why would the government want to know who owns gold?

The reporting provision at issue is Section 9006 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, which adds “amounts in consideration for property” to the types of payments over $600 for which a business must file an information return with the Internal Revenue Service. In addition, the provision also closes a loophole that made payments to corporations exempt from the filing requirement. Under the new law, a company will have to file a Form 1099 with the I.R.S. for every vendor from whom it buys more than $600 in goods.

The section was intended to be a fund-raiser for the rest of the health care bill; it was projected to deliver $19 billion over the course of 10 years by making it more difficult for businesses to keep income unreported.

I don’t really buy King’s political reporting and think that polls are best looked at as a collection of data over time. King’s poll has a margin of error of 4.1% so that could put Murray up by 7%, which would hardly make it the “dead heat” that King has in their headline.

Any one poll is pretty meaningless. At least, that’s my take on things. I could be wrong. It looks to me like Murray’s up by 6-8%.

Industrial production in this country didn’t start until Samuel Slater skipped out (illegally, skilled workers were not allowed to emigrate) of England and founded Slater’s Mill at Pawtucket, Rhode Island, in 1793.

Child labor was used heavily at that time in the mills. So much for that “child’s play” myth too.

By the way, you can’t help but be impressed with the right-wing’s ability to create a spin in their favor whenever they start to look bad for, well, acting like themselves.

Remember last year that the greedy Appalachian mine owner who skirted safety regulations (and inspectors) and killed the unions who would otherwise look out for the worker’s safety? An explosion in the mine killed quite a few minors, and a second explosion killed or injured (I forget which) several of those attempting a rescue. The mine was sealed, and the minors left to their fate.

And then two months ago, we find that a mine operator in Chile who practiced the unfettered capitalism and regulatory and enforcement-free environment which corporations and Republicans love had a cave-in which trapped 32 minors. During their ordeal, we were constantly reminded about how important it was to have good safety regulations and a government which enforces them.

But less than 24 hours after the last miner and rescue worker emerged, the Wall Street Journal announces that “Capitalism Saved the Miners”. Of course, in order to reach that conclusion it had to ignore the fact that (a) unfettered capitalism got them into that fix in the first place, (b) that the mine operator promptly went out of business and had little role in the rescue operation, and announced it couldn’t pay the minors anyway, (c) the rescue operation was organized and coordinated primarily by the Chilean government, with some assistance from the U.S. government and even NASA.

Nice try Zotzie, but wrong on your assumptions. Sounds like you have a passion for those that don’t measure up to other men in the locker room. I think they have special surgeries as well as support groups for that particular condition these days. Perhaps you and Daddy Love can try on women’s shoes with Al Bundy together. Best of luck!

I take it you have detailed reports of the differing geological conditions, mine depths, information as to whether trapped miners were in fact alive and so on. And also of the specific things mine owners did to cause the accidents. I take it you’ve been deeply involved in the investigations into why either or both accidents happened and how it was the mine owners fault, not the inherently dangerous nature of the work itself.

Had a capitalist economy not produced the cabling, communications equipment, drill bits and all the other paraphenalia required to remove these miners in Chile no amount of government action would have saved them. No socialist country ever has or ever will create the incentive to develop such things.

Very few on the right deny a proper role for government in large scale disasters. Saying that Chiles government helped orchestrate the removal of these miners says nothing about the relative merits of progressive and liberal thought. What the right disputes is whether I need help feeding my family, putting a roof over my head, paying my electrical bill and all the other nanny state staples of the left.

As an aside, you might contrast Chiles’ presidents hands on problem solving with the mine disaster with Cool Hands Obamas handling of BP.

25: “No socialist country ever has or ever will create the incentive to develop such things.”

This, lost, reflects the most rigid of thinking. Given your broad definition of socialism, you would have to characterize the Scandinavian countries as socialist. Do you believe that there is a lack of industrial incentive there? Do you? What about China? No incentive to innovate there? Think before you post, lost. Otherwise, you’re just pulling letters out of your ass, throwing them at the screen, and hoping they form words.

No socialist country ever has or ever will create the incentive to develop such things.

Ah, I take it you’ve never heard of Germany. Or France. Or Italy. Or Sweden. Or Denmark. No, none of those places could possibly create anything remotely resembling “industry”, because they’re “socialist”.

@27: It’s obvious that losthisheaduphisass lives in a very, very teensy-tiny echo chamber of a world.

The “socialist” Europeans (minus the newer peripheral EU members who copied America that Rumsfeld infamously called “The New Europe”) are kicking our ass in pretty much any measure — infrastructure, technology, quality of life — and especially their economies. You just have to spend a little time in Germany or France (let alone the Scandinavians who are really kicking our ass) to be really, really ashamed of how pinched our country has become.

Surprise! They still have lots and lots of rich people!

Then there’s those damn socialist Canadians right next door. Bunches of rich guys too. Including some who are trying to develop big chunks of Hood Canal and snapping up homes in Arizona and Nevada. Yep, they’re kicking our ass too.

You’d think little losty’d be too embarrassed to say shit like that, but you’d be wrong.

Fair point. I have regrettable tendencies to use absolutes in speech and writing. The real world, however, is a bit more gray generally. But I stand by the underlying assumption. The period of innovation in the United States was largely driven by the profit motive. Had that motive been frustrated by a socialist government it is highly likely the innovation would not have taken place on the same scale.

As a for instance, European medicine utilises American pharma and equipment advances, slaps stiff price regulations on them, and adopts them. We here in the United States having no such price regulation pay for the advances enjoyed there. Were we to adopt a similar sinister view of profit making (other than on the left) who would innovate? Who would develop new equipment or drugs? Why would anyone bother if they knew ahead of time that the profits of their effort would be stolen from them in taxes?

Sure, some would on humanitarian grounds. Universities and governmnent resources would be brought to bear particularly with regard to military applications. But that drive to build something better; who would do so if they knew that the net gain would be gotten by their lazier, less industrious neighbors?

Micheal,

What specifically Swedish, Norwegian or Finnish innovations do you have in mind? Exclude, if you will, those things (cell phone tech for instance) actually invented somewhere else and just improved upon in any of those nations. And also innovations which predate the period of social predation they are currently in.

In what areas are these people ‘kicking our asses’? What does Italy manufacture that was either not invented elsewhere (cars etc) or invented there hundreds of years ago? What do the Germans make that was invented in Germany while it was a socialist state? The French? What drugs or hospital equipment was invented in these places, rather than appropriated from somewhere innovation was rewarded? Why do leaders of these nations come here for medical care, if our system is so badly broken?

More to the point, if life here is so bad, why do you stay? France is great, yes? The Canadians have it all right, and we are all wrong, no? Move there. Don’t try to remake this wonderful country in their image.

I’ve actually travelled pretty extensively in Germany and Italy. I’ve lived in Italy. Have you? Have you tried to get in to see a doctor without setting an entire day aside for the task? A dentist? Have you tried to work at a job, pay all your taxes and survive as a working person in one of your socialist utopias?

In Italy a whole culture revolves around tax cheating. This is partly national cynacism about government and authority generally. But mostly it’s because a working person who paid all their taxes wouldn’t make it financially. Owning a car is considered a status symbol, a sign of attainment. Houses are on average a third to half smaller than here.

Before you try destroying this country you might learn firsthand about what the end game looks like. Or you could listen to Thom Hartmann and his America hating ilk blather on about how horrible this country is, how much better Germany is (from 25 years ago when he lived there, of course) and how we do everything wrong.

Exclude, if you will, those things actually invented somewhere else and just improved upon in any of those nations.

Come on lost, that is just lame. Every “invention” is just taking something already in existence and improving on it in some novel way, sometimes repurposing it at the same time. Or do you really think that mining, for instance, was invented here?

For the rest, I was addressing the prevalent view of those on the left. You think we are horrible socially. Our politics are awful. Our industries are anachronistic and predatory of the worker. Our schools are behind the rest of the world. We are a horrible people destroying the world environmentally, financially and politically. I just wonder, since you folks believe all that, why not move where it’s done right? Why stay in this horrible terrible place?

Love that Whitman in CA: thrashing miserably over her undocumented nanny. Can’t debate to save her life. Well over 100 MILLION of her fortune circling the toilet bowl. She’s a billionaire – it’s all paper to her.

Love that Fiorina in CA – all Boxer has to do is play Carly exclaiming ecstatically how Sarah Palin would make an excellent President – over and over and over again. Goes well with her bragging about sending American jobs overseas.

Love that Sarah Palin – she’s Gingrich’s disgust factor all over again – this time before a 1994 can even get here.

What you say is that we need to remake our medical system to match that of Europe.

You say that anyone who defends the current system is ‘batshit insane’ or evil or some other eptithet.

You say that our companies are ruining third world countries environment while deserting our labor force.

You say that anything which makes life more pleasant, easier or better than a generation ago is evil. Cars? Phooey, we should all ride bicycles or trains. Comfortable homes? Bullshit. We should all live in apartments downtown, so that we can ride those bikes to work and leave the suburbs for deer and cougar. And of course week-end liberal bike riders.

You never say any of those things directly. But each and every one of them is implied in your criticism of every aspect of life in America.

The funniest thing about Lost is that he seems to think that he is really smart. I get the feeling, reading Troll’s or Cynical’s comments, that they know that they are idiots, but they just don’t care. Lost, on the other hand, says things that are just as stupid, but doesn’t even seem to realize it.

Thanks for the condescension, but you can keep it for someone who cares about it.

Taking the idea of an internal combustion engine and designing the rotary engine is innovation. So is putting a more user friendly keypad on a cellular phone. Which do you think requires more skill, more indepth knowledge?

So, what have the French, Germans or Italians, really any socialist Europeans, invented in the past 40 years? What have they contributed to the sum total of industrial innovation as opposed to more capitalist nations where such innovation is rewarded?

So far we have Legos.

Here’s a hint for you Masaba. Europe might still be recovering from WW2 without the Marshall Plan, not making Erikson phones and BMW automobiles. Japanese industry was in large part jump started by Americans advisors sent there after that same war to restore what was widely seen as a shoddy industrial base. For all we know the 3rd Reich might have held Europe for decades, as Stalin and those who came after him held Eastern Europe, without the US stopping Hitler.

In your and your fellow travellers sophisticated dismay at how backward this country is, you might remember these things.

Ekins’s conclusion is not that the racially charged messages are unimportant but that media coverage of tea party rallies over the past year have focused so heavily on the more controversial signs that it has contributed to the perception that such content dominates the tea party movement more than it actually does.

“Really this is an issue of salience,” Ekins said. “Just because a couple of percentage points of signs have those messages doesn’t mean the other people don’t share those views, but it doesn’t mean they do, either. But when 25 percent of the coverage is devoted to those signs, it suggests that this is the issue that 25 percent of people think is so important that they’re going to put it on a sign, when it’s actually only a couple of people.”

Of course the HA pinheads listen to PMSNBC and the lame stream media who focus as Emily says above!

You are an idiot. And yes, I have taught you something today since you asked pretty please. Now you can go tell your friends that those socialist Europeans have invented and built the world’s largest and most advanced high energy particle accelerator. Up until today you thought that they had not invented anything in the past 40 years. It’s a big world out there.

Odumba claimed there were never any shovel ready projects. Odumba sez he realized he’s come across as a tax and spend liberal. – Source NY Times

In the magazine article, Mr. Obama reflects on his presidency, admitting that he let himself look too much like “the same old tax-and-spend Democrat,” realized too late that “there’s no such thing as shovel-ready projects” and perhaps should have “let the Republicans insist on the tax cuts” in the stimulus.

More condescension? I’m heartbroken. Devastated. My whole image of myself is shattered because an egocentric ass on a blog doesn’t understand basic argument and can’t follow one for more than a sentence or two. Cheers Masaba. Maybe when you have some actual facts to argue you won’t hide behind condescension.

Your argument was that the Europeans haven’t invented anything for the past 40 years, reference post 49. I countered it with a fact @54. I’m sure that there are many other facts that could counter your argument, as any sane person would find it hard to believe that the entire European continent has invented nothing of merit for the past 40 years.

Michael wrote about lost above: “You’ve never once come close to stating anything near what we on the left believe.”

Truer words could not be spoken. lost, you don’t even try to understand your opposition. Your views are fixed. Rigid. Implacable. Inflexible. I don’t expect you’ll be doing much innovating the rest of your life. The world has moved past you, despite your claim to be a traveler.

Haha. Just reading up thread, hoping to see when you resumed gnawing on your socialism chew toy. This gem popped out:

Very few on the right deny a proper role for government in large scale disasters.

Good! We now both agree that government has a role. Very constructive. See? I knew eventually you and I would find some common ground.

But, alas, disagreement remains. The Left believes the role of government is to prevent, or mitigate, disasters.

Whereas The Right believes government’s role is to permit disasters through malign neglect (9/11, Katrina, Gulf Oil spill, etc) and then use the crisis to push through a radical agenda while enriching their cronies. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The not so amusing bit is you laissez faire “capitalists” keep falling for the same trick. I’d think that 30 years of blocking the punch with your face would teach you to try ducking. Just once.

“I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: leftists must arm. Our weakness has always been a belief in the power of reason. That works among us, but the right doesn’t do reason. They don’t do facts. Empiricism is voodoo to them. So, simply, we must arm.”

you sound like a traveler alright! Of course, after having it pointed out to you that this wasn’t exactly WSBA let alone career friendly language for an attorney, you immediately retreated and claimed it was all metaphorical! Right. You didn’t even make it out the front door before realizing that your home theater was a little safer bet than the streets!

That resolve sure didn’t last long – not that you ever had yourself in mind for leading the charge! And now that you have managed to disavowed reason AND arms, we can honestly say to this:

This is coming from the guy who keeps threatening to move to Italy because the traitor FDR ruined America.

@34 “Before you try destroying this country you might learn firsthand about what the end game looks like.”

Sorry, but that traitor FDR already destroyed America.

@38 “You think we are horrible socially.

America hasn’t become a horrible place since being ruined by that traitor, FDR.

@38 “I just wonder, since you folks believe all that, why not move where it’s done right? Why stay in this horrible terrible place?”

From the only guy who shows up here threatening to leave America because it’s become such a horrible, terrible place since being ruined by that traitor, FDR.

@44 “You say that anyone who defends the current system is ‘batshit insane’ or evil or some other eptithet.”

This coming from guy who defends the current system by telling us that the traitor FDR ruined America.

@44 “But each and every one of them is implied in your criticism of every aspect of life in America.”

To be clear, this guy isn’t criticizing America when he tells us that it was ruined by the traitor, FDR.

@34 “his America hating ilk blather on about how horrible this country is”

From the guy who tells us how horrible this country is since it was ruined by the traitor FDR.

@49 “Thanks for the condescension, but you can keep it”

This guy is rightfully apalled when someone other than himself speaks in a condescending manner.

@49 “Europe might still be recovering from WW2 without the Marshall Plan, not making Erikson phones and BMW automobiles. Japanese industry was in large part jump started by Americans advisors sent there after that same war to restore what was widely seen as a shoddy industrial base.”

And this was an amazing feat, considering that all of this happened after America was ruined by that traitor, FDR.

@50 “If I only had a brain!”

Sigh! If only.

@58 “More condescension?”

Since we all know how much this guy finds condescension to be so apalling when he isn’t the one doing it, we should all be more considerate of him.

Hey, I know, let’s ask lost this question: More to the point, if this blog is so bad, why do you stay? Lost doesn’t like the opinions expressed here, and he doesn’t like the tone, so why does he keep coming back? He surely can’t think it’s because he’s going to change anyone’s mind, so what’s the point?

I watched this thread unfold last night, but did not have time to engage. Looks like Lost is already working hard to keep that Golden Goat on the mantle place.

Inventions from socialist hellhole Europe include, but are in no way limited to:

Netherlands: Audio Tape Video Tape CD CD ROM

Germany: LCD Screen Walkman

Czech Republic: Soft Contact Lenses (Back when they were under the yoke of communism, no less)

U.K.:

Video Games

I seem to recall that Lasik surgery was pioneered in the good ol’ USSR, but I don’t have time to verify that at the moment.

Of course, that hardly makes up for the sorry fact that Europeans are not allowed the vast array of consumer choices that we are blessed with here in the good ol’ USA. Sadly, Europeans are forced to choose between gas guzzling luxury cars made by BMW, Volvo, Ferrari, et al or from dozens of models that average around 50 MPG, such as: Mercedes A-class Renault Twingo Turbo Alfa Romeo Mito The new Fiat 500 Citroen C1, C2 and C3 Peugeot 206 Vauxhall Corsa Fiat Panda Skoda Fabia Audi A3 TDI Volvo S40 and C30 Etc.

Thank god we aren’t forced to make those sort of horrible, anti-capitalist decisions. And thank god we pay 2x what Europeans pay for internet service, and get speeds on average 3-4x SLOWER. Because that is the way the “free market” gods meant it to be.

Steve, as I said earlier, you have to just roll your eyes at 90% of what Lost says. For instance, he calls me egotistical and condescending. This is coming from a guy who:

1) Believes that the unemployed don’t deserve a dime and are unemployed because they are lazy. 2) Believes that no one in Europe has invented anything worthwhile in the last 40 years; a statement that effectively trivializes the efforts of millions of people. 3) Believes that people are just plain greedy, and won’t work if we implement a progressive tax structure. 4) Thinks that anyone who doesn’t agree with him hates this country.

It obviously helps him get through the day by taking his own worst attributes and projecting them onto others. It helps s by sustaining the state of denial he has about how totally fucked up he is as a person. heh- I recall someone posting that it’s a Psych 101 thing.

He’s surely the most fucked up person posting here. I’m talking about him being more fucked up than the Psycho-KLOWN, Puddy, mot, delbert, pudge – in other words, being really fucking truly fucked up in the head. I mean, good grief! You could take all the other troll’s fucked uppyness, put it in a box, and it still wouldn’t total Lost’s. If he was pulling that egotistical, condescending bullcrap around me in person, I swear it’d last no more than a minute before I’d have to put a damned stop to it.

“Europe might still be recovering from WW2 without the Marshall Plan, not making Erikson phones and BMW automobiles. Japanese industry was in large part jump started by Americans advisors sent there after that same war to restore what was widely seen as a shoddy industrial base.”

New Orleans could have used a “Marshal Plan”.

The American Rust Belt is a vast swath of shoddy industrial base in need of jump starting.

Shame there aren’t any traitorous FDR types about to get those projects moving.

But hey, as long as Xe AKA Blackwater has access to the US treasury, all is well.

“Shame there aren’t any traitorous FDR types about to get those projects moving.”

It just blows me away to think of how innovative America could have been over the last 70 years if that traitor FDR hadn’t of ruined this country. Of course, today all of the world’s innovations come out of that unregulated, homeschooled libertarian paradise, Somalia.

The diesel engine, rotary engine, and audio tape were invented prior to the adoption of socialism as means of government. In fact, of the technologies you note nearly all were invented prior to WW2 or as a consequence of military necessity, not private innovation.

Re 69

Nuance isn’t your strong suit.

Unemployment can happen to anyone and we have insurance for it. Unemployment for 2 years happens to the lazy and I fail to see why we should subsidize it.

Greed isn’t pretty, but it is predictable and you can build economic systems around it. Altruism is an attractive trait, but lacks the latterr two qualifiers. We can celebrate it where it occurs, without building economic systems on it’s ephemeral base.

Hates this country? Not always. A democrat who believes that this is a great place with a few areas for improvement is fine. Republicans aren’t always right, and neither are Dems. In compromising and finding common ground hopefully they negate the areas where either are off base. But far left progressives seeing us as basicically bad? Whether they admit it to themselves or not, they do hate this country.

New Orleans? They had several. The whole improbable city exists due to levies built and maintained at great expense by the Army Corps of Engineers. After Katrina hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars were wasted on brand new camping trailers for temp housing, refurbishment of existing housing stock to levels they hardly were at prior to the flooding and on and on and on.

American Rust Belt? Shoddy manufacturing? My Ford Ranger and Ford Mustang are well built solid cars good for a quarter million miles. The Ranger has nearly 200,000 miles and is going strong with no major repairs in that mileage. I’d drive the Ranger over a Tundra any day of the week. The Mustang is a remembrance of what American manufacturers could do before the full cost of unions became clear. I wouldn’t drive a Toyota or Honda. Dead boring, no sense of style inside or out and they are no more reliable than my Fords.

To put it a way you might (possibly, if doubtfully) understand. I have a nephew recovering from drug addiction. I loved my nephew before his addiction. I loved him during the times of stealing, dropping school and other unproductive behavior. And I love him now that he is recovering who he is.

I love my country, despite it’s addiction to FDR and Johnson platitudes and lies. I will always love it for what formed it, sustained it during its early years, and built it during the 19th and 20th centuries. I love the physical beauty, the resilience of its people, the fresh approach to the world shown in its literature and art and industry. I also like my place in Italy, and the different lifeways I encounter there. But the United States will always be my home. Anyway, I trust my fellow citizens to discard the nonsense of leftist beliefs in time.

I could care less if you’re impressed or not, old pal. See, Sartre expressed the concept I was trying to convey much better than I could have. I assumed most people were conversant with that book, so I made use of his gifts, sadly lacking in me. Sheesh, you take stuff so personally.

So what is the difference, other than one is for MDs and the other for guys who aren’t MDs? MDs can and do prescribe lots of drugs to change behavior, and I’m not sure that’s the way to deal with mental illness.

Well, the American auto manufacturers and the accompanying unions are in the shape they’re in due to their own arrogance and short-sightedness. Management and unions have nobody to blame but themselves for the auto industry’s problems.

@91 PI is OK. He’s just wrong on a few things. Who isn’t? But that obnoxious snob, Lost, he who loves his country so damned much that he threatens to move to Italy, is just about the dumbest SOB on the entire planet.

@84 “So what is the difference, other than one is for MDs and the other for guys who aren’t MDs? MDs can and do prescribe lots of drugs to change behavior, and I’m not sure that’s the way to deal with mental illness.”

I believe the best “short answer” is pretty much contained within your question. That said, there really is no good short answer. I’m sure a Google of the two words along with “differences” would lead to some in-depth discussion. Like yourself, I wonder about an over-use of medications as treatment, as in some knee-jerk, “Take these meds, Puddy, and go away”. But I have to leave it at that as I’m not qualified to criticize anybody practicing psychiatry. These days, as an electrical engineer, I may well think a mechanical engineer I’m working with is dumber than a stump, but I would never, under any circumstances, criticize him or her professionally as I am not qualified to do so. In some ways, this mindset limits what I’m willing to comment on or criticize here at HA.

Very few on the right deny a proper role for government in large scale disasters.

OK, so if your house catches on fire, that’s not a major disaster, so the gov’t has no business intervening by sending a firetruck. Have your own firefighting equipment or burn, baby. Likewise, if your Ford Pinto happens to burst into flames on being rear-ended, that’s not a major disaster either, so the gov’t has no business forcing Ford to fix their design flaws. Or, if private airplanes are crashing into each other and falling to the ground destroying the houses they land on, still not a major disaster, so there should be no gov’t involvement. Or if a high pressure gas pipeline bursts and destroys a couple dozen homes in your neighborhood, that’s still not a major disaster, so the gov’t has no business regulating the operators of those pipelines, nor helping those whose houses have burned.

I could go on, of course, but I really want an answer to the question I asked @67: why are you here, lost? You strongly disagree with the opinions of the majority of commenters on this blog, not the mention the bloggers. You can’t be so delusional as to think you’re going to change anyone’s mind, so why do you persist? I’m sure you can easily find another blog where most everyone agrees with you, why do you keep coming back here just to get flamed?

The Mustang is a remembrance of what American manufacturers could do before the full cost of unions became clear.

The Mustang was introduced in 1964, the heyday of the American industrial union. The Mustang became hideous in the 1980s, in parallel with the Reagan administration and the full-on assault on unions by the conservative movement. The only decent Mustang since the beginning in the 1960s came out coincident with Nancy Pelosi becoming Speaker of the House.

98 Yes, well, for some reason I keep having the urge to engage. I think that may answer the question some posed upthread – why does lost keep coming back?

I think he grooves on the response he gets here – there are these momentary flashes in his comments that leave you thinking you’re arguing with someone who’s actually thinking – and that’s somehow seductive. Or he comes back because deep down he knows that the self-centered, adolescent libertarian thinking that he espouses is really the crock of shit we all know it to be, and he really wants to stand up here and say, “My name is lost, and I’m an AynRandoholic.”

Looks like the founder, president, and treasurer at Countrywide Financial have entered into a plea deal with the government. They have to give up several million in fraudulently obtained profits, and pay some substantial civil fraud penalties.

But Bank of America has announced that they will be paying back the profits and fines themselves. I sincerely hope that no taxpayer money is going into this.

And, often his comments are predicated on some statement the he believes is factual, when we know that it simply isn’t (often isn’t anywhere close) – and that somehow correcting him will lead to some sort of epiphany for him. Never seems to happen, though.

For example, there’s this gem:

As a for instance, European medicine utilises American pharma and equipment advances, slaps stiff price regulations on them, and adopts them. We here in the United States having no such price regulation pay for the advances enjoyed there. Were we to adopt a similar sinister view of profit making (other than on the left) who would innovate? Who would develop new equipment or drugs? Why would anyone bother if they knew ahead of time that the profits of their effort would be stolen from them in taxes?

Sure, some would on humanitarian grounds. Universities and governmnent resources would be brought to bear particularly with regard to military applications. But that drive to build something better; who would do so if they knew that the net gain would be gotten by their lazier, less industrious neighbors?

So many ways to be wrong in just two paragraphs. So my response (partly from my tendency to be an educator) is to try to correct him, hoping that pointing out the unsoundness of his logical foundation might lead him to different conclusions…

European ‘pharma’ doesn’t steal American ideas and products. There is a rather large European pharmaceutical industry, always has been – only 4 of the top 10 companies are US, the others are in Switzerland, UK, France and Germany. They don’t steal from the US – those pesky patents kind of prevent that. Moreover, much of both the US an European innovation is made at the state-sponsored level – paid for by the NIH and the various European counterparts – funded by taxes and spent by the state in an effort to “Promote the General Welfare” Those innovations and discoveries are made by people motivated rarely by money, but rather intellectual interest and altruism. They forgo much remuneration to stay in academics and pursue simultaneously following their dreams and helping their fellow humans. Point is though, that the $$$ that pay for medical technology advancement are overwhelmingly mediated by the public sector for the public good. (In fact, the system kind of depends on the altruism of academics and scientists, and exploits it, giving the lie to one of lost’s other assertions about the proper foundation for an economic system…but that’s another topic)

In the second paragraph – lost’s worry about lazy and less industrious neighbors getting something – misses the point entirely. Again, the people making discoveries – and that is usually a painstakingly slow process of incremental advancement – are rarely remunerated in proportion to their commitment or contribution, and do indeed do it, usually with government grants, out of commitment to science and to helping others. It’s the aggregate contribution of thousands that makes for medical advancement – a benefit for everyone.

What I find I keep running into with lost, and other libertarians, is that there seems to be a deeply stunted part of their psyche – and I’m not saying this to taunt, but rather to work through an analysis – I keep having this image of a 3 or 4 year old, tightly clutching a toy and tearfully yelling “Mine!” over and over. I know lost thinks that a similar analogy fits “liberals” appropriating his stuff – but his sense of ‘stuff’ in no way takes into account the unavoidable fact that he got that stuff, at least in part, through benefits that were only available through collective action by the government, paid with taxes, and that benefit all of us – roads, schools, safe air and water, parents able to be home on weekends, etc etc etc

I suspect he’s been told to STFU at home and at work, so he comes here. He hears STFU here too, but until he’s banned for, say, being dumber than a box of rocks, he’s never going to STFU. So we end up with the endless, mindless Randroid drivel. On the upside, he probably goes away very depressed – “Damn, I quoted Rousseau on the same thread I quoted Camus, and yet nobody here thinks I’m deep!”, and, “Damn, I tell them again and again about my cars, my cabin, and my villa in Italy, and I still don’t get no respect! Waaaaaa”

99 He is a bit perplexing. Every once in awhile his posts will make some sense and you think you can have a rational discussion, and then next time up he’s spewing verbal diarrhea all over the place. He denies any alcohol-based cause for this dichotomy. I wonder about a bipolar condition.

I’ve tried myself to do the same thing. He posted in another thread that progressive taxation is a socialist idea and that we must all be socialists for thinking that such a scheme would work or be fair. So I linked him a paragraph from Wealth of Nations in which Adam Smith says that progressive taxation is proper and fair for a capitalist economy, and asked him if his definition of socialist extended to Adam Smith, father of the modern idea of the Free Market.

Lost’s response was that Adam Smith must be wrong. And again, he calls me egotistical.

Momentum does not look good. All that hot money from “furriners” courtesy of the Roberts court is closing that “enthusiasm gap”. Having a slate of batshit insane idiots vying for power isn’t helping either.

I like your analysis in the final paragraph, and it is one thing that I don’t really understand about the far right wingnuts either. This country has a ‘commonwealth’ of things that benefit all of us. For instance, even those who do not ever attend a public school in their life benefit from the public education system. They benefit from it even more if they are wealthy and own a business, as their business will no doubt depend on a steady stream of educated individuals being pumped out of our education system to both work for them or to be consumers.

In my opinion, the only only way our nation remains great is if these things that we all use remain strong. Sure, there can be a debate on the extent of how strong they need to be, who needs to contribute how much, etc. But if someone believes that we can just do without the commonwealth, then their idea of social/governmental paradise literally should be Somalia.

@99, 101, 102, 103, 104 – Lost illustrates the constantly shifting goal posts of right wing “thinking”. They make a blanket statement, like “No socialist country ever has or ever will create the incentive to develop such things.” and when shown factually that that is a crock make another dismissive statement, in this instance saying that any inventions you can mention don’t count because… (fill in the blank) For instance, to lost, any invention made from “military necessity” doesn’t count. Yet I’m sure if you were to point out that all of the Texas Instruments patents that grew from the space race would, by that definition, not count toward his definition of “innovation”, he would try to counter that the space race wasn’t really “military” in nature, or some such. Goal posts shifted again. He is not so much an asswipe, as noted above, but more of an intellectual skidmark.

We get more patents by percentage, but is that because our patent system is different in the US? —- If conservative principles are so conclusive to creativity, shouldn’t the south and Alabama be the most innovative, creative places in the union? Should places like Mississippi and West Virgina be dynamos of innovation, instead of New York, LA, Chicago, San Francisco and Seattle?

When news of the vaccine’s success was made public on April 12, 1955, Salk was hailed as a “miracle worker”, and the day “almost became a national holiday.” His sole focus had been to develop a safe and effective vaccine as rapidly as possible, with no interest in personal profit. When he was asked in a televised interview who owned the patent to the vaccine, Salk replied: “There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?”

Think about that, and then contemplate lost’s only-profit-matters vision of the world.

worf, On Netherlands alone you got the video tape and CD inventions wrong wrong wrong. CDROM in 1982 while socialism 2006. That’s 24 years. When Goldy clears the PuddyResearch comment @113 you’ll see how worthless your attack on lost is. How much other stuff is absolutely wrong in #68?

@114 You need to ask Darryl if you can borrow his Puddyspeak De-coder Goggles. But I’ll warn you beforehand that you might be disappointed with the results. I tried them once and Puddy still didn’t make any sense.

114 – clearly it means that prior to 2006, The Netherlands was a right wing paradise, had no socialized medicine, a regressive tax structure, no social safety nets and the almighty hand of the always rational free market and laissez faire capitalism had complete and total dominance in the Hague. or something. Puddy is just a rabid dog in a cage barking at imaginary demons. Don’t waste time engaging him.

The Compact Disc is a spin-off of Laserdisc technology. Sony first publicly demonstrated an optical digital audio disc in September 1976. In September 1978 they demonstrated an optical digital audio disc with a 150 minute playing time, and with specifications of 44,056 Hz sampling rate, 16-bit linear resolution, cross-interleaved error correction code, that were similar to those of the Compact Disc introduced in 1982. Technical details of Sony’s digital audio disc were presented during the 62nd AES Convention, held on March 13–16, 1979, in Brussels.[3] On March 8, 1979 Philips publicly demonstrated a prototype of an optical digital audio disc at a press conference called “Philips Introduce Compact Disc”[4] in Eindhoven, Netherlands.[5] On March 6, 2009, Philips received an IEEE Milestone with the following citation: “On 8 March 1979, N.V. Philips’ Gloeilampenfabrieken demonstrated for the international press a Compact Disc Audio Player. The demonstration showed that it is possible by using digital optical recording and playback to reproduce audio signals with superb stereo quality. This research at Philips established the technical standard for digital optical recording systems.”

So, pioneered by Sony, presumably in Japan, though clearly seminal work bringing it forward by Phillips, in the Netherlands. Invented by an American in 1965 Puddy? Even if you are right about that detail, where did this American work, and was the work funded by NSF or DOD or Energy Dept? Point is, as I made above, it that there are no (or very rare) Eureka! moments – scientific progress is the result of many many people working diligently all over the world.

It is not the exclusive province of God-anointed U.S. American Capitalism ™.

The electronics division of entertainer Bing Crosby’s production company, Bing Crosby Enterprises (BCE), gave the world’s first demonstration of a videotape recording in Los Angeles on November 11, 1951.

While yes, it was a U.S. American ™ invention, you’re off by a few years.

And about the videotape – it replaced the kinescope, an invention of the television pioneer Vladimir K. Zworykin.

Read about Zworykin: born in Russia, training in physics in Paris, experience with Russian Marconi (the Russian branch of the UK company invented by an Italian), eventual employee of Westinghouse (who didn’t appreciate his genius) and later RCA. Key to his success at RCA was his (and his team’s) adaptation of English and French patents made by the Hungarian inventor Kalman Tihanyi. Refinements were later made by Germans and the English, and eventually adopted for more widespread use by the BBC.

But of course, nothing ever comes of value outside the exclusive domain of U.S. American Captialism ™.

heh- Like we don’t know the real source of your “Puddyfacts”. Speaking of asswipe, I hope you always remember to wipe after pulling another fact from your, er, I mean, after you’re done doing your “PuddyResearch”. Oh, and leave the fan on.

Odd, that these guys would bring up science and patents, seeing as how much they hate scientists. Hell, they hate progress. They’re not so much conservatives as they are regressives, wanting to see America return to a time that never existed except in the films and television produced by Hollyweird. Heh- Hollywood, yet more wingnut hate. And yet they worship a B-movie actor who, after acting with a chimp, played the role of a tax-raising president who cut & ran from terrorists after they had killed 250 of our troops in Beirut, and on whose watch we experienced deep recession, high inflation and unemployment, bank failures and a market crash.

Perhaps we could try to see where our local trolls best fit. I do have a complaint about the table, though – there’s no place for Mormons, and they definitely deserve their own special place in the table. Maybe give them the place of the Rastafarians – as far as I can tell, they’re the one true religion!

Yes worf, you are the rabid dog. You were the one who equated Netherlands socialism with the inventions of the CD and videotape, no one else. Then you, being the rabid dog, attacked lost with your non-“facts”.

Once again everyone can see when a “progressive” is proven wrong how they howl at the moon and leave useless pellets all over the place. Then other “progressives” rush to his aid becuz he must look good. Why do you think Goldy didn’t publish Puddy original #113 entry? Well here are the CD facts fool. Especially nasty facts for the one who barks like a rabid dog on a chain link collar…

Sony and Philips get credit for developing the compact disc in the early 1980s. But they licensed technology that Russell developed 20 years earlier in the Tri-Cities.

Puddy understands how it sucks to be wrong to a righty. Most of the time you suck. And when you suck you suck!

Now Stupid Solution Steve, what were you saying again about PuddyResearch… yeah, Puddy hears white noise static… par for the course from your neanderthal cranial orifice!

Regarding the videotape entry Puddy got his information from The History of Television, 1942 to 2000 By Albert Abramson, Christopher H. Sterling pages 60-76 where Ampex and RCA are given credit for the first working videotape recorder/player, when the BBC rejected the use of NTSC and chose another format now known as PAL.

Again Puddy in the original #113 entry gives his reference to Ampex. But, alas, Goldy chose not to post the entry so the rabid dog barking at the moon and leaving useless pellets worf wouldn’t look as stupid as he is.

Now Stupid Solution Steve, what were you saying again about PuddyResearch… yeah, Puddy hears white noise static… par for the course from your neanderthal cranial orifice!

BTW anyone with a technical brain knew Russell was the CD inventor. It shows what “progressives” claim to know isn’t too much. As Puddy’s mother used to say, what they know would fill a thimble!

At the end of 2008, GE employed 152,000 U.S. workers, according to its 2009 annual report. But at the end of 2009, according to the report, it employed only 134,000 U.S. workers, a decline of 18,000 workers.

Frank, who’s facing feisty Republican challenger Sean Bielat, flew to the tropical paradise for a vacation in 2009 on a $25 million jet owned by Paloma Partners honcho S. Donald Sussman, the fiance of U.S. Rep. Chellie Pingree (D-Maine). Paloma Securities — a subsidiary of Sussman’s Greenwich, Conn.-based hedge fund — received $200 million in 2009 as part of the $180 billion federal bailout of troubled insurance giant AIG, records show.

Oh wait a minute… another rich DUMMOCRAPT? A rich DUMMOCRAPT running a hedge fund? Does he know Bernie Madoff? Does he know J Allen Stanford?

He originally listed the trip vaguely as “first class round trip travel by private aircraft” in a congressional filing in May. In July, he amended the report to show he traveled from Portland, Maine, to the Virgin Islands. He called the discrepancy a “clerical error.”

Yeah right Barney. If a Republican did that you’d first run to PMSNBC and be hosted by Egregious Ed, Wacky Rachel, or KKKKeith. Maybe all three. Anyway when you are a DUMMOCRAPT call it a clerical error.

For the real truth… aviation experts pegged the total cost of such a flight around $30,000 each way especially when you account for the carbon footprint of a fat progressive and his boyfriend on a private jet! Was that you gman? You live in Boston!

Oh wait a minute, only Republicans fly around and hang with rich buddies per the HA moronic class (98% of the posters here).

1965: Joins Battelle at Richland and begins developing the first of three optical data-storage technologies.

Who do you suppose paid for, and therefore allowed to happen in the first place, this work at Hanford? Hmm…do you think tax dollars and the US government? A socialist enterprise if I ever heard of one.

“He, in my opinion, is really the father of the technology; he had the original ideas for optical-digital recording and I feel is the original inventor of the basic concepts that made it all come into being,” said Marv Erickson, senior program manager at Battelle’s Pacific Northwest National Laboratory in Richland.

One man’s opinion, but let’s take it at face value. Russell had an idea (do you suppose in a vacuum? no one else working on or publishing about this stuff? Highly unlikely) and was allowed to pursue it while working at a US national facility for a contractor of the US government.

That company ran out of money in 1985, and the patents went to a startup in Toronto, which hired Russell.

It sued Sony, Philips and music publishers for licensing fees and royalties on CD technology, but Russell was let go before settlements were reached, and he never got a share.

This whole line of argument started with lost’s asinine assertions about the nature of innovation and its essential links with U.S. American Capitalism ™. Now we have you blathering on trying to refute worf’s assertion about the intellectual source of CD technology. Point is, the guy you put forward as the inventor indeed was central in developing the early technology. However, Russell worked for a government contractor at a government facility, undoubtedly using our tax dollars, while making these contributions. AND, directly contradicting lost, he appears not to have made dime one beyond his salary and the “thanks” of the corporation for whom he worked.

The arguments you and lost appear to make about the unsurpassing greatness of US innovation and its inexorable links to capitalism and personal gain simply do not hold up to critical scrutiny.

Puddy longs for a leftist pinhead with factual credibility. If Goldy posted Puddy’s original 113 it referenced he worked for Battelle. Ask Goldy to post it. You’ll see the original post!!!!!! Direct from Russell libtardo scientist

“What I invented was the optical-digital data-storage technology — the fundamental technology behind the whole thing,” he said.

How many innovations are from Government workers later released into the public domain? The internet you use and Al Gore claimed to invent was from DARPA!

Ahhh yes the libtardo scientist calling the US government a socialist enterprise. Well he has to otherwise his meme falls flat!

And Puddy attacked worf on his associations of Netherlands being socialist (2006) vs the inventions being placed at least 24 years before their socialist experiment. Chronological fallacy #203. Ask the dumb as dirt ylb for his failures in chronological fallacies!

Moreover, so what if Russell worked for Battelle – whether Goldy deleted you or not, it’s in the ST article you linked – they were government contractors at Hanford and elsewhere (the article indicates Russell’s work was at Hanford). My point stands – his work was funded by OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK.

The other points stand as well – none of this kind of work occurs in a vacuum, and inventor all over the world had a hand in it – it’s not the exclusive province of U.S. American Captialism ™. AND, Russell seems not to have been motivated by personal gain, and in fact didn’t gain in proportion to the significance of his invention, directly refuting lost’s assertions about the primacy of capitalism in engendering technological advancement.

Puddy did refute your facts in post #120. You forgot that crap already?

So you need to stop posting on this blog because you are using technology invented by tax $$$$ at work per your weaksauce argument. Jack Russell invented the technology and your continual argument against facts cracks Puddy up!

How many innovations are from Government workers later released into the public domain? The internet you use and Al Gore claimed to invent was from DARPA!

(Leaving the dishonest canard about Gore aside…)

My point exactly, and another refutation of one of lost’s assertions, this time about medical technology. The U.S. government (that is, us) funds the vast majority of this kind of work, via NIH and NSF, NOT the ‘private’ pharmaceutical companies, which exploit these developments.

This information and retrieval system enables information to be stored as a track of dots about one micron in diameter. The technique now is used by major manufacturers of compact disk technology.

In 1994, the technology was nominated for a Computerworld Smithsonian Award, which “honors the creativity and inspiration of those who use modern information technology to improve the course of our lives.” This nomination was a finalist in the Science category.

Arguing with you is so pointless, yet leaving your drivel standing without correction is a disservice to any hapless soul that might stumble onto these threads and think that your authoritative voice somehow represents honest and factual discourse.

Later days, Pudster, I’ve got work to do (after all, I’m a socialist small business owner)

Oh yes but some innovations are direct from private research and that’s what lost was saying. Plexiglas was from DuPont. No government $$$ at work there. Nylon stockings are from DuPont. No government $$$ at work there.

You take one comment and stretch it beyond all credibility. Oh and Puddy destroyed your #120 comment!

(Speaking very slowly and with clear enunciation…) No one is denying that Russell’s contribution was highly significant and early in the development of the technology.

HOWEVER, that work was done by him at a US government facility, while working for a contractor for the US government – NOT, as lost would argue, by an independent, purely capitalist, financial-reward-motivated, Randian uber-inventor toiling away with other “producers’ in their rocky Mountain hideaway, free of the taxation and regulation imposed by the lesser, lazy (and likely brown-skinned) “takers”

The point is, you pointy-headed dolt, is not that someone other than Russell did what you say he did, but that he did it under the aegis of US government support – WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS BEING SPENT TO PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE

worf claimed Netherlands was liberal and socialist and they invented CD and videotape.

Puddy proved Netherlands went socialist in 2006

Puddy proved Netherlands Phillips did not invent CD or videotape.

Puddy proved Phillips produced a CD player in 1982, 24 years before Netherlands went socialist.

The rest of that argument in #142 is a bunch of blather. Puddy dissected worf’s argument against lost. Then when you add Lucite and nylons coming from private capitalist enterprise you fail even more miserably!

If facts confound your mind, maybe liberalism is a mental disorder!

Oh and don’t use Any Rand hero of headless lucy and other leftist here. You will piss them off!!!!!

worf claimed Netherlands was liberal and socialist and they invented CD and videotape.

What worf actually said:

…Inventions from socialist hellhole Europe include, but are in no way limited to:…

I believe, as I imagine you do but choose to disregard in the interest of muddying waters, is that worf’s comment was satire of lost’s (and the rest of you wingnuts’) view. That view was a typically crude embrace of Randian triumph of independent capitalism and unbridled greed as the source of all invention and progress, and this as a uniquely American process.

Puddy proved Netherlands went socialist in 2006

The makeup of the Dutch parliament was never really a discussion topic. More obfuscation.

Puddy proved Netherlands Phillips did not invent CD or videotape.

Pud pointed out that an American working on the federal government dole had seminal contribution to CD technology. This history in fact undermines lost’s assertions.

Puddy proved Netherlands Phillips did not invent CD or videotape.

You did no such thing. You have conveniently avoided the massive and essential contribution of Dutch and Japanese to a marketable product.

Puddy proved Phillips produced a CD player in 1982, 24 years before Netherlands went socialist.

ibid

The rest of that argument in #142 is a bunch of blather.

Dismissing without addressing. Typical side-stepping, but only into doo-doo, as is typical of the mindless right.

Then when you add Lucite and nylons coming from private capitalist enterprise you fail even more miserably!

As if nylon and lucite were somehow the paragon of western civilization. But anyway…

The German chemists Fittig and Paul discovered in 1877 the polymerization process that turns methyl methacrylate into polymethyl methacrylate. In 1933 the German chemist Otto Röhm patented and registered the brand name PLEXIGLAS.

Perhaps these guys were capitalists, but they certainly were not Americans. Moreover, and of particular significance to your arguements:

Here Otto Röhm focused on the processing of leather. He discovered a enzymatic leather staining process. This led to a substitute (brand name Oropon) for the fermented dog dung which was formerly used for bating leather (part of the tanning process).

Did he put you out of business? Do you have such an abundance of fermented dog dung that you have to leave it here?

Wow – weird shit. Pud’s like the guy who shows up to the party as it’s winding down, shouting “who wants to lick some coke off my balls”, then mumbles that all the women in attendance must be lesbos because none of them will talk to him.

@145 Yeah, I need to stop. It’s pointless ‘discussing’ with Pud. and it’s sunny outside and the kids are home, and I have actual work to do…so many reasons.

Goldy, are there funds at HA to spring for a better class of wingnut? Some that might be able to string together coherent thoughts? Respond honestly? Engage is a worthwhile debate that might edify all involved?

I gave it up years ago, and get accused (and rightfully so) of contributing nothing but insults.

Guilty as charged.

Why do otherwise? These clowns won’t/don’t listen…they are so convinced that what they THINK ought to be right IS right…that they have no room for counter views.

But I got that decades ago when trying to use logic vs. the US involvement in Viet Nam.

I don’t know what rock these new guys came out from under…but they bring nothing to the table. Maybe we can talk to the NRSC. Or the Chamber. The Chamber has LOTS of money. They could pay for some decent trolls.

In all this blahblahblah about technology, I’m slightly surprised no one has mentioned the obvious: who was is that first put a man into space? That’s right, the Commies. But no, nothing ever invented by “socialists”, only “capitalists”.

Sigh. For all the stupidity on the left (and there’s plenty), the right always manages to out-stupid us.

I believe, as I imagine you do but choose to disregard in the interest of muddying waters, is that worf’s comment was satire of lost’s (and the rest of you wingnuts’) view.

Notice the standard fare for libtardos… claim satire when their ASS is kicked….

Puddy proved Netherlands Phillips did not invent CD or videotape.

You did no such thing. You have conveniently avoided the massive and essential contribution of Dutch and Japanese to a marketable product.

Now this is funny. Marketing is held so much higher than the original invention. When you look up the patents and even WikiPedia agrees here and WikiPedia agrees here with Puddy you gotta agree rujax is just a big a fool as liberal scientist. Facts slap a DUMBOCRAT silly.

The rest of the above rant is more doo doo about nothing. That’s why rujax loves it!

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