Expanding End-Game

Recommended Posts

I basicly dislike anything that limits me. For me Wurm is you can be everything you want, time and your work should be only limitation. I'm ok with boosts in which you invest to some point. We have such examples like affinities from food, or puting enchants on your tools but still it's not that much requirement. I suppose natural born affinities are very very primitive random class system for wurm but they have very minor impact. The moment you start to choose to excell yourself by limitning you in some other aspect is where it comes wrong for me. That's the case with religion but that impact is still not that great although since Vyn is almost meta it isnt noticable that much again. Meditation quite another story and it is almost requirements for crafting and fighting so that's already very classlike which i dislike a lot. Basicly you have several implicit still debatabily soft classes in Wurm: Wariror, Crafter, Priest Enchanter and Priest Warrior which pretty much make regular warrior some hybrid class of fighter and crafter

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

I basicly dislike anything that limits me. For me Wurm is you can be everything you want, time and your work should be only limitation. I'm ok with boosts in which you invest to some point. We have such examples like affinities from food, or puting enchants on your tools but still it's not that much requirement. I suppose natural born affinities are very very primitive random class system for wurm but they have very minor impact. The moment you start to choose to excell yourself by limitning you in some other aspect is where it comes wrong for me. That's the case with religion but that impact is still not that great although since Vyn is almost meta it isnt noticable that much again. Meditation quite another story and it is almost requirements for crafting and fighting so that's already very classlike which i dislike a lot. Basicly you have several implicit still debatabily soft classes in Wurm: Wariror, Crafter, Priest Enchanter and Priest Warrior which pretty much make regular warrior some hybrid class of fighter and crafter

Med balance problems aside, the good news is that there are few outright penalties associated with the paths; it's nearly all opportunity cost, so I don't see med as a limitation, just as a collection of unique bonuses I can choose from. (The bad news is the pain of advancing -any- of them.)

I do feel like the PoK level 9 skill protection bonus, however, should be included on all paths.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Really like this general idea, if I may say so. A mechanic that allows some players to learn skills that allow them and them alone to craft certain items would be fantastic.

1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

So, a "Logician Master Blacksmith" (for example) might make lighter, more efficient tools. A "Strongman Weaponsmith" might make heavier weapons, that do more damage.

Occurs to me these two ideas could be combined, such that a "Strongman Weaponsmith" could make, say, "heavy huge axes", that could -only- be imped by other Strongman Weaponsmiths.

That's not exactly a soulbound craftable item, but I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of soulbound recipes, since accounts can go dormant. (And I know, it's possible I'm getting into "classy" limitations here... )

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

I've been thinking about adding more depth to things, but I have a question to pose: How would you add depth to improving an item? Almost everything in the game uses improve/repair as the functions to make it better. How would you add depth and break that gameplay loop? This was something I was interested in doing to discourage macro gameplay on my private server. Most of the ideas had flaws except for a certain few, and I'd be interested to see if we can brainstorm something that truly hits the marks. Here's some restrictions:

Must be an addition to improve/repair, cannot change it fundamentally. Some people (myself included) actually like to use Wurm as a game I can play while watching a TV show. When a new season comes out of a show I enjoy, logging into Wurm to improve some items while I watch it on my other monitor is something I really like. When I posed changes that would break this gameplay loop, it was met with negative reception.

Overal I think the focus might be better on creation instead of improve/repair, since as you say changing improve/repair fundamentally isn't desired, and overall I feel creation is lacking far more in the depth department. If creation became more in depth, and in return for taking longer also boosts the initial ql of the item, then that might make for a nice middle ground. You'd still have the current improve/repair system for imping items once you're done with creation, and could still use it just like now while doing something else.

I think for Wurm that mostly means expanding existing actions. For example right now smithing comes down to:

Mine ore with a pickaxe

Put ore in a furnace and wait until it becomes a lump

Activate lump and use it on an anvil to create the metal part of the item

Combine this metal part with a carpentry part in order to create the final item

Step 2 could feel more involved and in depth if it contained multiple steps, and different options. For the most part I'd throw this entire process under mettalurgy. I'd first split iron into two categories, wrought iron and cast iron. Wrought iron could be created by putting ore in a bloomerie (or just use the normal forge) and should be the weakest of the two, ill suited for tools but fine for nails, horse shoes, etc. That's probably what newer players would start with. Cast iron could be created by using the existing smelter (the model certainly fits). Once the iron is in liquid form you could then poor it into a cast, by default this could use a clay cast for iron bars/lumps.

After making iron bars/lumps, step 3 could involve hammering the lump into what you want, so instead of using a lump on an anvil, watching a timer and done, I'd try to aim for something closer to this: First you grab the hot lump, perhaps using pliers or something else so you don't burn your hands (same ideas as needing a tool with bee hives), and then you move the lump to the anvil (which would function more like a container at that point). You'd then need to hammer the lump into the right shape, perhaps occasionally heating it up a bit more by moving it back to the forge. This hammering shouldn't be one action taking you from lump to final form, instead I'd let there be multiple forms in between. You'd need to target specific areas of the lump with the hammer action (different types of hammer actions you could pick from a list, depending on what shape the iron has at that time?) in order to get your desired shape, so no choosing the shape you want outright, the actions you take will determine what shape you eventually end up with. I'd see the entire process mostly as a branching tree you can go down. If you mess up then it's back to the forge in order to turn your mess back into a lump so you can start again at the top of that tree (probably with some loss of ql for the iron). If you did the hammering right then you ended up with a specific item, and you can then move on to step 4.

With cast iron you could do the exact same things in step 3, heat up the bar and beat it into shape. An alternative could be to first create a clay mold of what you want to make (the higher the quality of it the better, this way a second skill gets involved early, either optionally, or perhaps even as a requirement for some items). With the mold you'd be able to skip some of the hammering work, but in return you'd need to wait longer as the item needs to cool down before you can work on it further (perfect while doing something else, like watching tv). Perhaps such molds could also only be available for some items, like lamp poles, fence poles, etc. Mainly large items with a simple shape?

The hammering there I feel is a good example of how a one click action (lump on anvil) could be turned into a bit of a mini game, where you actually need to work the lump in a certain way in order to get the item you desire. Of course it could require other things than just hammering. This way it becomes proper gameplay with an actual failure state if you mess it up. You'd thus have recipes for smithing and actual actions to execute in the right order. You could add in a recipe book just like how cooking has one now. Perhaps the same treatment could work for step 4, so combining a handle and metal item becomes more involved and requires more steps.

Another idea I had was to treat certain items as composite items. For example with a sword, you've effectively got a blade and a grip (perhaps split it up into blade, grip and guard). What if in order to imp a sword back up to quality you'd first need to take those two apart and imp them seperatly? Thus you'd need a weapon smith for the blade/guard, and a carpenter/leatherworker for the handle. The quality of the blade could affect the damage, while that of the handle/guard could have an effect on accuracy/parrying. That way you'd want all parts to be of high quality. Tools could be the same way, the handle of a tool could for example have an effect on stamina usage, or failure rate. This way your idea of augments/enhancements could even target sub-parts of an item instead of the entire item. This also allows for a lot more customization options, for example you could have different types of handles, with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Ecrir

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

One idea would be to make an NPC faction on a PvP server. Give them their own, large deed with well built walls and fortifications. Give them NPC players equipped with good weapons and armor that defend that deed. Allow them to roam and kill players and loot them. Their loot would then be distributed among the raiding parties they send out. These NPC's would be only as strong as the players allowed them to get (with a certain baseline, perhaps ~70-80QL plate/chain), as well as offering a consistent opponent even if the PvP kingdom balance shifts in one direction. Instead of solving player problems with additional players, we put a hostile NPC in place to shift the tide.

That could be interesting. Would love it if it were trolls or goblins, smarter than their wild cousins. (Could see war trolls calling for help from wild trolls... Drums...)

On 11/16/2018 at 6:59 AM, Sindusk said:

Every time the players would learn a way to "cheese" the AI, the devs would be able to patch that option and force the players to find another way... until there were none left. You'd be left with an NPC faction that would pose a significant thread and add a new dimension to the macro gameplay on a PvP server.

I like this, as long as it was restricted to the NPC faction. If general mob AI were buffed, I'd hope for something to balance the chores (step off deed and get swarmed by smart wolves is maybe fun once or twice ).

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Idea I sorta had a while back, I guess you go to some form of time limited instance either by portal or boat, probably a few hours, or maybe even a couple of days. With others too, take no items with you which makes your skills more important. With some kind of goal to achieve within the required time. Eg. Build a colossus/other expensive structure, survive an incoming rift/other big fight, reward given when you return based on your performance as a group. Building goals could be rewarded based on time, combat based on duration survived or enemies killed. The group should at least have some idea what the goal will be before going into it.

The whole taking your items away from you when you start is there to hopefully encourage cooperation too, as well as change the gameplay. Wont even have tools at the start, need to forage to make them, those skilled as blacksmiths make and improve tools, woodcutters and miners gathering high quality resources.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Personally I see two major problems I have with the Wurm end-game: Population Sparsity and the previously mentioned Maintenance Mode.

For the first, I'd love to see some changes that encourage people to live together in bigger deeds. There will always be hermits, but as a former hermit I discovered to my surprise that living in a densely populated deed in a densely populated area is much more fun, even for me. I didn't know this until it happened, and it only happened because I took a long break from Wurm and my hermit-ville decayed to dust. I didn't feel like recreating an entire deed from scratch so I joined an existing village and lived within, and the experience taught me that being a hermit is not nearly as fun or interesting.

This wont prove true for everyone, so I'm not suggesting hermit-living be restricted or impaired, only suggesting encouragements for higher-population deeds. Deed bonuses are great, but way, way too mild. If there could be skill-based bonuses that would be awesome. For example, every active member of the deed with 70+ blacksmithing increases a passive deed bonus to blacksmithing, say +2% skillgain and +1% rare chance on blacksmithing items per member or something. Perhaps this could even encourage specialized deeds. Tons of high skilled weaponsmiths, and players who wish to learn/grind weaponsmithing, live at a deed dedicated to weaponsmiths to maximize the bonus. Or even better, super large metropolis deeds can be made that have enough players gathered together to add a great bonus to almost everything.

This would work in the other direction too. If I live in a general deed with no special focus, and I'm the only cloth tailor around, hitting 70 cloth tailoring skill directly improves the deed. Anyone that wants to make a meditation rug is grateful that I'm there.

The other issue is what to do. I see new players leave all the time because grinding isn't fun. I agree, I've been playing Wurm for many, many years but I never grind and thus my highest skill is only 82. Personally I manage to find other enjoyable things to do to occupy my time, but that's not true for everyone. To that end I like the ideas presented, especially hunting areas/dungeons and minigames. Hell just adding the ability to make a deck of cards and play some poker would be amazing. Especially if playing said minigames increases mind logic or mind speed or something.

I also think things should be added that are fun to do and have no skill requirements. Mini-games would do this, but other things can do it too. on-going horse racing, a fighting arena where players can duel for prestige and reward or fight piles of monsters, etc etc etc. Think of how much fun the side-games at an impalong are, and imagine a metropolis size deed with dozens and dozens of people online at any given time, full of these fun distractions. Like a permanent impalong with live-in residents.

I don't want to just play Wurm, I want to live there!

Also I've seen things like Epic, and WU, go the other direction and spread Wurm's relatively small playerbase wider, and every time it's happened, Wurm felt a little more dead. If it were up to me, the entire population would be consolidated on to just a few servers, but I can understand the reaction such a thing would provoke.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Advanced creature AI's (civilizations of NPCs with different behaviors) that travel is a big project but would add a nice layer of depth to the game. I'll throw that in here. Perhaps the weathering/erosion system could also be implemented to "clean-up" such NPC villages when they change location.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Personally I see two major problems I have with the Wurm end-game: Population Sparsity and the previously mentioned Maintenance Mode.

For the first, I'd love to see some changes that encourage people to live together in bigger deeds. There will always be hermits, but as a former hermit I discovered to my surprise that living in a densely populated deed in a densely populated area is much more fun, even for me. I didn't know this until it happened, and it only happened because I took a long break from Wurm and my hermit-ville decayed to dust. I didn't feel like recreating an entire deed from scratch so I joined an existing village and lived within, and the experience taught me that being a hermit is not nearly as fun or interesting.

This wont prove true for everyone, so I'm not suggesting hermit-living be restricted or impaired, only suggesting encouragements for higher-population deeds. Deed bonuses are great, but way, way too mild. If there could be skill-based bonuses that would be awesome. For example, every active member of the deed with 70+ blacksmithing increases a passive deed bonus to blacksmithing, say +2% skillgain and +1% rare chance on blacksmithing items per member or something. Perhaps this could even encourage specialized deeds. Tons of high skilled weaponsmiths, and players who wish to learn/grind weaponsmithing, live at a deed dedicated to weaponsmiths to maximize the bonus. Or even better, super large metropolis deeds can be made that have enough players gathered together to add a great bonus to almost everything.

This would work in the other direction too. If I live in a general deed with no special focus, and I'm the only cloth tailor around, hitting 70 cloth tailoring skill directly improves the deed. Anyone that wants to make a meditation rug is grateful that I'm there.

The other issue is what to do. I see new players leave all the time because grinding isn't fun. I agree, I've been playing Wurm for many, many years but I never grind and thus my highest skill is only 82. Personally I manage to find other enjoyable things to do to occupy my time, but that's not true for everyone. To that end I like the ideas presented, especially hunting areas/dungeons and minigames. Hell just adding the ability to make a deck of cards and play some poker would be amazing. Especially if playing said minigames increases mind logic or mind speed or something.

I also think things should be added that are fun to do and have no skill requirements. Mini-games would do this, but other things can do it too. on-going horse racing, a fighting arena where players can duel for prestige and reward or fight piles of monsters, etc etc etc. Think of how much fun the side-games at an impalong are, and imagine a metropolis size deed with dozens and dozens of people online at any given time, full of these fun distractions. Like a permanent impalong with live-in residents.

I don't want to just play Wurm, I want to live there!

Also I've seen things like Epic, and WU, go the other direction and spread Wurm's relatively small playerbase wider, and every time it's happened, Wurm felt a little more dead. If it were up to me, the entire population would be consolidated on to just a few servers, but I can understand the reaction such a thing would provoke.

Players like me will just prem all his alts for this, I live with a few villagers but having tried the big village life isn’t for a lot of people, that’s why that style died years ago (for the most part, some have persisted, I’m glad to see)

most of the players playing now adays I feel would opt to just prem more alts for these bonuses. And most of us already have characters with high skills sitting un-prem to be able to get them

it’s a fun idea, I think, but not one that is going to help the problem of scarcity as you see it. A big village has a lot of advantages already, the problem is, Wurm invites people to come play this huge sandbox. Living under the rule of a village limits this, thus most of the people Wurm attracts instantly run from the sight of it.

what I guess I’m trying to say is, Wurm, while being a good game for having a huge flourishing village already, doesn’t attract these type of people often. Because it’s a game about no limits, and that’s what people come for, to be able to do whatever it is they wish.

Adding more incenative to these big villages won’t help that problem.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

One of the major mistakes SOE made with SWG was with housing. Like many MMOs land and housing is a tool to get money out of game world. They had the incentive effect of removing decay and specialized profession bonuses. As space was limited, grouping up was ideal. After Hurricane Katrina they suspended upkeep costs. It was never reinstated. Originally, in order to have a village or city it required 2 other players to build homes within 48 hrs. They later removed that. What was once bustling areas then became desolate, as players could maintain residences at no cost, and could occupy land by themselves. Huge empty cities in empty servers.

Not totally comparable, but lessons learned. It is a difficult matter no game has perfected. Looking at reasons why people deed up would be useful, but encouraging one man operations toward specific types of deeds could be considered. The hermit hut, the wealthy villa, logging, mining, and hunting camps, farms, fishing villages, then more populous industrial, residential villages/towns. Production bonuses or specific item types (piers!) could be applied.

For “end game” content, I think about some Final Fantasy titles as I have played and get drawn into fantasy of joined professions. Idea is by leveling certain seperate skill sets, and after attaining a set level of mastery, new skills become available.

For example, high level in tracking and archery could unlock access to champion hunter. In essence, similar to sorcery, where combining spells produces a new title - look at current titles or modified ones to create not only new titles but new skills. To preserve some horizontal progression, new skills could be pseudo versions of existing skills i. e. Champion Hunter to Reveal Creatures with modifications such as once every 24 hours reducing time by skill level earned, or progressive strength of ability with increasing skill as an example. Creating whole new skill sets that could exceed current ones could severly impact horizontal progression however.

In the same concept of utilizing high levels in multiple skills, missions could be added to require high levels of multiple skills to accomplish. Hero scenarios. In trying to fully grasp the religion and priest aspect of Wurm, I do not see priests as mages with sorcery present. Intended I am sure. I find this quite compelling at the moment. Something I routinely find myself pondering during the “too many gods” discussion is ancient rome and greece. Those societies, as many others, had many. Wurm has champions, of course, but I also like to expand that to ancient heros. Take any of the labors of hercules as an example. Say a hero scenario is to steal cattle from a cyclops. To reach him you might have to climb over a huge mountain, dig a long tunnel, travel through a valley packed with champ scorpions, build a ship to sail across water, then either stealth away the cattle, or slay the cyclops and take your spoils. Heros perhaps would not have to follow path of priests, nor ascend. Perhaps they do missions to spite the gods! A mere mortal showcasing godlike skill. Let imagination free. Solo, group, time limited or open ended. Its a sandbox after all.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Add more items like compass, items that require many different skills to make. Rune-like items and Tome-like items that require many pıeces made by archeology, brewery, blacksmithing, jewelry smithing, fine carpentry, pottery, toy making, stone cutting, alchemy, papyrus making etc. etc. Items should require pieces imped or created (depending on the skill) by those skills and the item itself shouldn't be able to be imped and effectiveness based on ql. Make it so complex that people end up buying pieces from other people instead of trying to make it all on their own. Most metal ones should require the piece to be made of some metal or alloy that is not already commonly mined/used. Some pieces could also be found through rifting and hunting certain regular creatures in the wilderness.

Based on their effectiveness, these items should require dozens, hundreds or thousands of different items gained by different means. Variety is the most important factor, breathing life to overlooked skills and materials. Completing the really hard ones should feel like a great accomplishment.