Originally posted by Bybyots
So, TG, I am assuming then, that you have read, or are aware of what's called The Greenbaum Speech? I can totally go there with you if that is
the stuff that you mean. I have been down that track a ways to see if it would take me where I was trying to go.

Sir Bybyots,

Oh yeah, Greenbaum. Until you brought it to my attention, I had never given it the light of day. Coming from you, I had to take another look-see and
found it very interesting in light of the deeper--substantiated--details concerning MK-ULTRA and it's predecessors. If any of y'all that have access
to RATS want to go deeper into MK than even the awesome and heroic Colin Ross took us. Shoot me a PM and I'll turn you on to some fascinating and
documented research that just might blow your mind.

For now, let's set the stage for further discussions by taking what might seem a side-trip through ufology and the shenanigans of our intel boys in
relation to said subject.

Bybyots, I pretty sure you're familiar with at least some of these reports from Phillip Coppens? Especially as regards Maury Island?

I don't dig Coppens' Ancient Aliens shenanigans too much, but he is an extremely good writer and researcher, imo, in these particular subjects
especially. One of our very respected members and researchers here has informed me that Coppens has been accused, allegedly by the awesome Greg
Bishop, of pilfering his research on Bennewitz without giving credit.

Be that as it may or may not be, the following articles pretty well demonstrate that however he gets it, Coppens generally gets the information right
and presents it in an easy to digest manner. You don't have to buy and read a ton of books and you come away just as educated in other words. Thank
you, Mr. Coppens.

I can imagine hard-cases who don't want to ponder such evidence not enjoying these articles, but I can't imagine those still willing to ask the hard
questions not eating them up.

First, thanks for sharing. Your account is fascinating. Your descriptions of the beings - physique, coloring and other features reminds me of accounts
of a humanoid creature (almost ape-like with yellowish, white skin) the Arabs call the Djinn. I've interviewed some folks who have had experiences
that seem similar to yours in description at least. One Jordanian woman (Kadeja) related that several would visit her in her family's home at night
and on at least one occasion took her to a dank place that she thought was subterranean. At the time there were family members vising and she had gone
to bath. The door was so loose from its hinges that her brother was assigned to sit near the entrance so that others wouldn't enter. The brother
heard her voice, as if having some conversation with someone, and finally when he went in to check, she was no longer in the bathroom. More than two
hours later she stepped out of the bathroom having emerged from the cold bath water. She related this story of having been materially transported by
these rather hideous entities, who were apparently taken by her. She was never harmed, but apparently befriended by the entities. In Islamic theology
these djinn have are both good and evil personalities. They are also spoken of in the ancient holy texts as being born of smokeless fire, whereas man
consists of clay and water. Some modern interpreters of the Qur'an claim that the smokeless fire they are made of is really an electromagnetic fabric
(plasma?) which gives them certain advantages in the way they travel (teleportation) and communicate (i.e. telepathy). In addition, the texts state
that the djinn were created along side of man (in a parallel world we cannot see) and that they live in free will and understand good and evil, as we
do.

I had never seen those before, or even seen that information tightened up and focused like that. I am really glad that I got the chance to read those,
Mr. Coppens is a very good writer. When I add up the shock of what I think that we learned in the witch thread to what I am learning way too fast in
this thread, I'm not left feeling really great about all of it, especially considering where all of this has been going the last couple of years.
Anyway, I am going to go through those again; I'm stunned.

I think the truth is terribly ugly, I do not think that it is for everyone and for those trying to find truth often has to delve into uncomfortable
places and ask absurd questions, remember fiction has to make sense, the truth on the other hand can be a whole hell of a lot crazier

First, thanks for sharing. Your account is fascinating. Your descriptions of the beings - physique, coloring and other features reminds me of
accounts of a humanoid creature (almost ape-like with yellowish, white skin) the Arabs call the Djinn. I've interviewed some folks who have had
experiences that seem similar to yours in description at least. One Jordanian woman (Kadeja) related that several would visit her in her family's
home at night and on at least one occasion took her to a dank place that she thought was subterranean. At the time there were family members vising
and she had gone to bath. The door was so loose from its hinges that her brother was assigned to sit near the entrance so that others wouldn't enter.
The brother heard her voice, as if having some conversation with someone, and finally when he went in to check, she was no longer in the bathroom.
More than two hours later she stepped out of the bathroom having emerged from the cold bath water. She related this story of having been materially
transported by these rather hideous entities, who were apparently taken by her. She was never harmed, but apparently befriended by the entities. In
Islamic theology these djinn have are both good and evil personalities. They are also spoken of in the ancient holy texts as being born of smokeless
fire, whereas man consists of clay and water. Some modern interpreters of the Qur'an claim that the smokeless fire they are made of is really an
electromagnetic fabric (plasma?) which gives them certain advantages in the way they travel (teleportation) and communicate (i.e. telepathy). In
addition, the texts state that the djinn were created along side of man (in a parallel world we cannot see) and that they live in free will and
understand good and evil, as we do.

Good stuff! Thank you, g2v12. The late great Gordon Creighton, accomplished human and very respected "ufologist" of Flying Saucer Review fame took
a LOT of flak for the following article.

You probably are already familiar with it. I think it's worthy of consideration. It might also be noted that Jacques Vallee never lost his respect
for Creighton and has spoken of him in the most respectful terms.

My own sighting--along with three other Boy Scouts was of the long-reported-through-history "Fiery Globe." We saw it up close and personal. It was
huge and pulsated from invisible to a perfect globe that pulsed into life and looked exactly like molten metal on the inside. No smoke. Plasma has
pretty much always been part of my description of that event. Here's Creighton's article:

1. that there are Pleiadians . . . HOW have you verified their existence . . . and that whatever they are, that they truly are from the Pleiades?

2. that the constellations have influence on the affairs of man . . . mentalities, emotions, relationships, doings?

3. that the critters do anything or don't do anything according to the positions of the constellations?

4. that a person's birth in a given moment of time has anything to do with the association with that set of constellation settings . . . and that such
have anything to do with the rest of their lives.

= = = =

EVERY LAST scientific study I've ever read about has found 0.0000000000000000000000% correlation for all that.

edit on 8/7/2013 by BO XIAN because: addition

1.
Plieadians of today are really just a cheap imitation of the Egyptian Sun worship. The Apis ( en.wikipedia.org... ) bull was
another reference to the Sun being in the house of Taurus. This goes for Mithraic cults as well as Molech and the golden calf of the Bible.

The Plieadians, or rather the group claiming to be them, are lead by a guy named Rael (Ra-El). It is not even the least bit of a stretch to make the
connection of ancient spiritual beings and modern aliens being associated with zodiacal memes.

2/3.
I never said the zodiac constellations have any influence over mankind, I was insinuating that the experiences are tied to them. In certain circles
of esoteric thought there is a belief that the beings claiming/presenting themselves as these constellations have more influence during various points
in the procession.

It could be an organized attempt at deception or it could hint to certain parameters associated with the spiritual experiences.

4.
No. Seeing as you are a Bible believer you should not really condemn that thought process seeing as the Revelation is largely a description of events
through the imagery of the zodiac.

This whole 'ancient aliens' theory is straight from the lips of L Ron Hubbard who is known to have had strong connections with Jack Parsons and the
OTO. His connection with the occult and aliens can be taken as more circumstantial evidence in support of that aspect of the phenomenon.

Though the above information is usually radically distorted depending on the POV of the reader. Materialists and spiritualists often both take the
correlation as supporting their own theories. I will not say one way or the other.

Though I would suggest others to read the Nag Hammadi texts as they can offer more incite into the phenomena from a historical angle.

The more POV's being tested the better I say, though I do lean far more towards the spiritual/consciousness association after my own studies.

EDIT
I may as well add that I like to refer to the Venusians as the 'Pentagramaton' as the pentagram was derived from the alignment of the planet Venus
with the Sun and Earth.

Ive seen something odd in the sky once as well, it was more like a symbol/ tear in the sky then a craft hard to explain ive seen other things in Iraq
that could be one thing or another but I have seen something very odd, I find alot of truth against conventional ufology with ET life being involved
idk how your ordeal filters in with your beliefs versus what you know but will say it is frightening for some reason the scene in the movie IT the
adaptation comes to mind when the little girl was in the laundry drying out side in the way beginning, odd thing is that movie was based on ET kind of
only thing is that IT simply says its the destroyer of worlds never said he was an alien, I hope you understand why I make that connection (I am not
saying IT is something true) but I feel as though it would be frightening like that to go through your ordeal almost like the little girl seeing the
clown in the drying laundry

I know the subject matter isn't of interest to everyone, but I really can use all the help I can get. As they said on that show: If you decide to
accept this mission...start on page 1 for the whole shebang.

Believe me when I tell you, though, I won't feel offended if you don't wanna wade through it all. The pertinent information is pretty massive in
scope and would take a chunk of time to wade through.

Thank you again for your participation here. As much of a train wreck as I thought this thread was going to turn out to be, it has actually been my
most rewarding thread experience I think.

Welcome from a real abductee that wishes she was never one. When you are abducted it isn't romantic or anything that you could wish for. The truth is
a hard pill to swallow with implications that last a life time yielding no answers just more questions.

It is a life time of perplexity and pain in actuality without closure. Nothing sweet about that but welcome nonetheless.

I know the subject matter isn't of interest to everyone, but I really can use all the help I can get. As they said on that show: If you decide to
accept this mission...start on page 1 for the whole shebang.

Believe me when I tell you, though, I won't feel offended if you don't wanna wade through it all. The pertinent information is pretty massive in
scope and would take a chunk of time to wade through.

Thank you again for your participation here. As much of a train wreck as I thought this thread was going to turn out to be, it has actually been my
most rewarding thread experience I think.

Im familiar with the honey badger sorry for the derail I clicked the link you provided and boom randalls guide to nasty ass animals and reminded me of
me when I look at my avatar, sorry

Welcome from a real abductee that wishes she was never one. When you are abducted it isn't romantic or anything that you could wish for. The
truth is a hard pill to swallow with implications that last a life time yielding no answers just more questions.

It is a life time of perplexity and pain in actuality without closure. Nothing sweet about that but welcome nonetheless.

Hiya, Egptia! I don't think we've ever communicated before, but I have certainly noticed you and have really enjoyed your posts.

I hope I haven't come across as romanticizing this issue, but I assume you are talking in general. Like I said: I've appreciated and starred many of
your excellent posts. Maybe when you have time, if you are so inclined, you might share more here?

Despite being a very skeptical person these days, I am (sort of) in a similar boat to yours, GUT. And I appreciate and respect your degree of
conflicted ambivalence toward your experiences, because that's how I feel about them as well. I know something happened, but whether it was something
real, something psychiatric in nature, etc. I have never found adequate proof for to satisfy my curiosity, so I am forced to just sit in a perpetual
state of skepticism and uncertainty.

My family has had experiences that date back to the 1950s for which I have yet to find a truly satisfactory mundane explanation. That doesn't mean
there isn't one, mind you. And I don't really lean more in direction than another. But I do try to avoid assigning potentially undue emotional
importance to said experiences, precisely because there could be a mundane explanation.

I'm uncomfortable going into detail about the rest of my family's experiences, but I will say that one female family member throughout childhood and
well before established "abduction lore," had recurring dreams as well as waking experiences consistent with said later lore. Strange children luring
her away from school (while awake,) missing time, waking in strange locations with no memory of how she got there, seeing people being "switched off"
or "in slow motion," dreams of greys, fetuses, examinations, etc. etc. All the classic notes were hit basically, despite her having no interest in
UFOs or contact whatsoever. She in fact told me that she didn't know what UFO even stood for until the 1990s, as she had zero interest nor did anyone
in her family.

The other side of that coin though is that she had some psychiatric issues. From an early age she would sometimes experience a sort of idiopathic (at
the time) fugue state. She suffered from severe clinical depression as a teenager and was briefly hospitalized in relationship to it. During that
hospitalization an EEG indicated what doctors referred to as "traces of epilepsy." Giving her antiepileptic drugs of the time had no effect on these
findings. Years later I discovered that temporal lobe epilepsy could account for many of the facets of her experiences, including visual distortion of
the passage of time, blackouts, and complex hallucinations.

The reason this isn't entirely satisfactory to me is that her experiences persisted well into her late 20s, and then abruptly stopped completely. She
has had no symptoms of epilepsy since that time, and has never been formally diagnosed with epilepsy despite subsequent FMRIs and EEGs.

Moreover, no family members, teachers, doctors, etc. have any recollection of her going anywhere, being missing, etc. during those episodes where she
would be in school, follow a "strange girl" off the premises and then find herself at home with no recollection of how she got there. She would hurry
back to school (it was nearby in their small neighborhood in the 50s) and find her teacher and classmates "in slow motion," and upon taking her seat
they would "return to normal." None of them ever reported to her parents that she had been gone.

So that leaves false memories, unwitting influence on a young mind by pop culture, etc. That is certainly a possibility which, in concert with
temporal lobe epilepsy might account for her experiences. But then we run into the issue of striking similarities with other people's experiences in a
time when she had no exposure to or interest in literature or media on the subject. Such as vivid dreams of classic greys presenting fetuses to her,
seeing said fetuses suspended in trays or tubes of liquid, etc. Apparent gynecological examinations.

Thus finally we have the possibility of a novel psychiatric pathology that has yet to be fully quantified or identified, shared by all people having
had such experiences. That is possible, and there may even be a unique syndrome in which temporal lobe epilepsy, social factors, and other specific
psychological abnormalities or disorders intersect to create the overall subjective "abduction experience." That sort of synergistic syndrome is one
of the very few truly satisfactory possible explanations in my opinion, and thus something I would love for the psychiatric community to study the
possibility of in depth. Because I can think of little else which could conclusively account for every facet of such experiences, and I am not
persuaded that any one condition on its own could do so satisfactorily.

Then there are my own experiences, some of which were shared with said family member. Mine were limited to dreams for the most part, which of course
makes them more amorphous and less reliable a means of determining if anything actually happened or not. Hence my skepticism.

When I was very little, I experienced what was most likely simply sleep paralysis. I awoke in my room, and there was a blue, shimmering light filling
it. It was light, but seemed "thick," as though it had consistency. It was emanating from my window. I could not move or speak. I tried to call out,
but only whispers escaped. Then there is a brief gap in my memory of this dream, after which I am awake and able to move, and running into my parents'
room for comfort as young children do after a nightmare. I do not recall this part, but they tell me I told them, "Someone's coming through the window
to get me."

Later in the 1990s, this family member and I had the same dream on the same night about the same location in vivid detail. It involved some of the
more exotic and "trickstery" elements of abduction phenomena. Shape changing, orchestrated scenarios, ritual, etc. I would dismiss such a strange
dream, except that we were able to recall the location and the following day we went and found it. To our astonishment, it was identical in every
detail to the dream we had had, despite never having been there.

Things like that defy easy explanations and despite my skepticism, leave me open the possibility of something more happening. However, that said, I
also have psychiatric issues. I have Asperger's and suffer from social anxiety and depression. Perhaps there is a familial crossection of pathologies
which result in such experiences, which we are incapable of perceiving because we are subject to the subjective whims of said pathologies. I don't
know.

I only know that this is why I remain ambivalent and open minded, but skeptical.

Wow, thank you, Ace. Whatever it is, it's way more complex than psychology or medicine--as it stands today--can account for. Even the most liberal
interpretation of archetypes can't, imo, explain the details that have been consistent with so many folk.

The shared dream y'all had is pretty mind-blowing too. Like you said, it could be some complex as yet unknown psycho-social mechanism. We have to
consider that, but what the hey?

Really enjoyed and appreciated your post. You strike me as a person I would truly enjoy knowing in real life, too.

I am under a hypotheses that this phenomenon has something to do with who is chosen because of physiological traits via blood, bloodline, genetics, or
neuroelectricity I wont elaborate in this thread thats a discussion in own rights but that is a very interesting story, the first part about stand
still time is very interesting as well. thank you for sharing

I agree and that's my problem. Even if I can account for every facet of such experiences but can't account for that one, what am I left with? When
the only satisfactory explanations are a totally unknown psychiatric modality or a totally unknown real phenomenon, is one really more probable than
the other? Not if I remove normalcy bias, in my opinion. So it's wide open from where I sit. Hence, skeptical, but open minded. I think that's what
people like John Mack were confronted with, too. Are there mundane explanations that explain absolutely every facet? Yes, but they are nearly as
exotic and unknowable at this stage as a real, tangible phenomenon would be, hence both have to be rationally considered from my point of view.

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