Something incredible happened during my WFRP session tonight with my little sister. I have to go to sleep soon for work tomorrow, but I felt I should post this series of events.

I feel that I should first talk about Magnus. Magnus has been my character since the first time I joined a session of WFRP five years ago. An Imperial soldier who could almost outshoot a Targeteer, he accrued over seven thousand experience since starting as a green Militia man with zero XP. He fought in campaigns all across the Empire, in Bretonnia, Kislev, the Border Princes, Araby, Ind and even Albion. He dispatched greenskins, Chaos demons, usurpers, traitors, pirates, sea monsters and more. He shot a Dwarven Gyrocopter out of the sky and even put a bullet in a member of the Von Carstein family. Magnus died tonight.

Yes, this evening my character was killed. I am still a little shocked, especially as tonight was meant to be a memorable session for other reasons. You see, my eleven year old sister joined my group tonight, using her Imperial Light order mage Lacey. Now, this character's history spans back to years ago when I first played with Magnus. I would have my sessions and come tell my sister about the amazing things I did with Magnus (I was excited and was telling everyone, but my sister always listened more intently than mum or dad so I would tell her in more detail). My sister loved the stories, and so at some point when I had the books we made her a character so we could play with each other. Lacey. Thinking back, she might have been between seven and eight when we made Lacey. Our adventures were G-Rated at first, of course, but she loved playing a magic girl who did good and helped people. For those of you who are not familiar with WFRP, Lacey's wizard order of Light are wizards who cast illusion spells to do with light, as well as anti-demonic magics and a few other spells. One of these happens to be Skywalk, a spell that lets you walk a few feet on air.

In any case, my friends caught wind that my sister and I played about three months ago, and after flagging numbers threatened our group we decided that my sister should join us. My group are good people so I was okay with this, and my sister was excited to be a part of things. I told her that these games would be more serious than the games we played, but she was happy to bring Lacey to the table. I helped her shore up the character sheet to fit the party's XP (we have been a little liberal with things when she and I play) and she sat in for her first session this evening.

Tonight, we were trekking along a mountain ridge in Hochland when the party was attacked by a manticore. The party dug in and fought it, everyone lightly getting through its armour but not driving it off or killing it when it mounted the summit and clawed forth. Lacey was knocked off the cliff and into space, a giant chasm below ready to take her first Fate point. One of the other players reminded her she had Skywalk, which she employed to run a few feet back toward the cliff. The spell ended just short. Being close enough to help, Magnus passed his Agility test and was able to dive to the edge and extend his Best craftsmanship Firearm out, butt first for her to grab to not fall to her doom. She grabbed onto it, but barely. The manticore was flying about to attack, so we decided she needed to get up no matter the warnings the GM gave about rushing this action.

Welp, we fumbled the roll. While climbing up, she managed to pull the trigger of the firearm. The bullet obliterated Magnus' head and Lacey fell into oblivion.

Magnus' Fate points ran out a while ago but he had been keeping on going through a combination of luck and moxy until tonight. After our GM told us what happened, the table went silent. My sister just held her hands over her mouth for a long time then just left the table crying. I called the session early there, which everyone was cool about.

I spent half an hour in her room telling her it was okay and it wasn't her fault. That Magnus had lived far longer than most characters in that system. She just kept apologising and crying. I learned that he was important to her too. That she always looked forward to hearing stories about him when she was younger. I ended up having one of the big talks about death and acceptance with her tonight.

I hope she will play with us next week. She is still really upset. I think she still blames herself, but I am hopeful that I can convince her that it was the accident it was. As for me, I have to roll up a new character. That thought is fucking weird.

In any case, just thought you would all be interested in my story. If it still exists tomorrow when I am finished with work I will discuss it with you, but if not then I hope it was interesting. Goodnight, /tg/.

>>23679675>The bullet obliterated Magnus' head and Lacey fell into oblivion

Magnus & Lacey adventures in the service of Morr, protecting his kingdom.I mean, you can fight evil spirits, daemons and stuff.My only concern is if 11 years old is not a bit to early for that kind of things.

I WAS going to teach my little brother, but after this I don't think I will. That is FUCKED UP. You literally killed a childhood hero of hers. No its worse. She killed a childhood hero of hers with her own hands. Something that was valuable to you and you two shared. I don't think I could function after so bad a fuckup. How do traffic lights work after something like this? Fuuuuuuuuuuck dude.

>>23679868>but warhammer really is fucked up isn't itOnly a bit.I mean, if you decide to take a trek in Afghanistan-Pakistan borderland would you be really surprised when Talibs try to kill ya?WFRP isn't really about heroic heroes, even after 2-3 professions.

>>23680032Hey maybe exposure to loss in a controlled situation without any actual long-term ramifications will only strengthen the character of OP's little sister and give her experience on how to deal with loss in the future.

Seriously, I GM 40k and WFRP all the time. I would never have killed a character for failing that kind of roll, and I sure as hell would not have had a little girl decapitate her childhood hero, possibly making one of the formative events of her short life one of fictional manslaughter.

This just doesn't feel right. I'm all for keeping the tone of the universe in my campaigns, but this is too far. That poor girl.

You could really make this good if you can persuade the GM and the rest of the players to find someway to resurrect your character with your sister's character having the main role in the resurrection. It will boost her spirits and you get your character back

I mean, I kill characters pretty often, but its either in combat or after failing so many successive rolls that even the player could not possibly argue. I tend to let them have some sort of thematic resonance or catharsis with their death, as well.

This served no purpose besides mentally scarring a little girl who just got in to RPGs. Thats wrong on multiple levels.

>>23680117But in all seriousness, if your GM knew that your sis really idolized Magnus, that was a really shitty thing to do, even if if it fits in with the setting. If he didn't, still making an 11 year old kill her older brother's character is still a bit bad. It's not like that he had to really pander and fudge every roll in her favour, but come on, that was her first game, woudl that ONE fudge have been so hard?.

Guys, the DM isn't the problem here... Seems like the OP is feeling "weird" but not that bad about losing his char.

Real error was to let play a 11yo at a game meant for and played by adults.

There's a reason I run my kid/teen nephews through "chars are godlike" dungeon crawls for them to goof around and have fun, and reserve the Chtulu-like survival-horror shit for my adult friends... (Not that we don't enjoy a silly slugfest now and then, but that's another topic entirely!)

Dude, if he died in combat, or after a few failed tests, it would be all right.

That isnt what happened. There was one failed roll. And the manner in which the GM said the failed roll played out was both deadly and borderline sadistic. He was at the table, he knew there was an eleven year old girl there.

Maybe she was too young, but the GM saw the line, and stepped right the fuck over it.

>>23680257Why are Swedes psychologically incapable of seeing something beautiful without painting it fucking puce? Playing WFRP does something to people. It's like a psychosis. Slowly eats away at someone's ability to relate to their fellow men.

>>23680262Remember, she jumped straight from a G-rated "Magical Girl who did good and helped people" straight into this. Are you seriously blaming the primary school girl for not picking up on warnings=consequences?

"told her that these games would be more serious than the games we played"

She was briefed before the game started, and warned in game. Maybe the DM should have gone easier on her, maybe the brother shouldnt have brought her or at least made his point more clear, but the little girl isnt completely free of blame.

For everyone NOT blaming the GM for having an eleven year old girl inadvertently decapitate her brother's character, whom she had formed a connection to, as he tried to save her from falling to her doom, I have this to say:

What the actual fuck is wrong with you? You dont do this shit! There is a fucking line. A GM's job is to make the game fun for his players. Do you think ANYONE had fun after an eleven year old girl ran off crying after fucking murdering one of her heroes?

Keeping the integrity of the setting is not put before the enjoyment of your players, ever. She counts as a player, last I checked, even if she was too young for the game.

If the GMhas ruined what could have been a lifelong passion for the kick-ass hobby of tabletop gaming for your sister, OP, you should beat him. Setting and warnings aside, beat him, using his own body if you have to.

>>23680326Your point is perfectly valid, but we're back at my argument of it being the entire's group fault, namely that adults and kids don't always enjoy the same things, and I'm not certain the other players would have apreciated their Xtreme Grimdark setting becoming a lot more permissive. So yes, the GM could (and seeing the consequences, should, although retrospective is easy) have toned it down... But then again, he shouldn't have been put in the situation of having to tone it down in the first place.

TL;DR: DM isn't the only idiot, whole group is for assuming a kid is an adult!

It IS a fantastical RP, why stopping at your character's death ? Fuck you could make Magnus rise from the death after winning a deal with death/managing to trick it into reviving you/working for him for a second chance.

In resume : There are a lot of ways to make a character's death "void"

Maybe so, but the lion's share is with the GM. Remember he is final arbitrator of what happens, so that particular gory end is all on his hands.

I was mainly pissed because some people were blaming the girl. I think the kid is innocent here, it was her first game, I don't think she had any reason to expect that something like that would or could happen, warnings or no.

And remember, the group agreed to let her in. So the GM should have adapted to keep her as content as the others. I dont think anyone would have cried foul had she not blown Magnus' head off, its hardly the expected outcome from even a failed roll.

>>23680190Well, they could probably get him back from the dead if they really want to. However, if they stick with the tone of the setting, it'll mean that they either have to find some Daemon or someone skilled in necromancy. But sticking with the tone of the setting was kinda the problem here, so maybe they shouldn't do that.

There was a way, you know, to kill off Magnus in this encounter, but do so in a way that would have been amazing for everyone. She grabs the gun, he swings her to safety, momentum carries him back over the edge. They lock eyes as he fall, understanding passes. He plummets to his doom, saving her with his last act. This tame, he changed fate, but not for himself.

But you know, that would require a GM who has a sense of catharsis and is not a sadistic fuck.

>>23680326Nobody enjoys to die. But the person who actually played it wasnt crying. The players didnt decide ask for a reroll. The little girl was the only one who wasnt having fun. Sure, OP is a bit out of his comfort zone because he has to reroll a new character, but he has already accepted that.

>>23680579Ive been in many-a-game that I dont belong in. I was invited to all of them. I just quit when I realized that I didnt fit in. The girl was informed of the severity of the game, warned when she tried to make a mistake, and then couldnt handle the consequences. Every other player accepted the consequences.

>>23680524Not impossible, but it pretty much always involves something horrible. Chaos is the only faction to have successfully raised someone from the dead and actually have it be the entire person that comes back, body, mind and soul. Necromancers can probably get him back as a ghost, but that is apparently not a very nice existence, a lot of the time.

>>23680467I wholeheartedly agree that the kid is blameless. At 11 years, one simply can't reason or deal with situations like an adult would.

I however am pissed off at people putting the blame square at the DM's feet. DM'ing is often a difficult and sometimes thankless job, involving a lot of preparation and "psychology" to create the correct setting for his players to enjoy.

Now don't get me wrong, he did mess up royally by not adapting his gameplay to the modified group, and assuming the kid would simply deal with happenstances as an adult. But that blame is shared by the whole group, who just played as usual.

As I said earlier, there's a damn reason why when the kids I sometime DM for are around, it's silly kick-in-the-door crawls with goofy grandstanding RP, and not a variant of "Neverending Labyrinth" where the only way to get out is to kill each other off until there's only one last man standing.

Why dont you make your second character being Magnus son ? Maybe that will make your sister feel like she has an opportunity to apologize to Magnus by taking care of his son, who will soon become even more badass than his father.

Was that not your point? If it is, then my point stands. All of the other players are having fun. Do you want to sacrificed the integrity of a game that everyone else enjoyed in order to cater to only one of the players.

You know, if this was somebody's girlfriend, nobody would be having this issue. "Hey guys, we are down players, so I brought my girlfriend."

"What? She made a mistake even after being informed that this was a severe game and warned? Please let her reroll or retcon that entire event, it hurt her feelings."

>>23680629What did you expect the rest of the group to do? The DM is the only one with the power to say "YOU ROLLED A CRITICAL FAIL, THEREFORE BOTH YOU AND YOUR BIG BROTHERS CHARACTERS DIED. AND ITS ALL YOUR FAULT."

It's not a very forgiving world. As a human you need to be an exalted champion of chaos, a powerful vampire who's had a drink of dragon blood or keep going on elven magic(king of bretonnia) to cheat death. Other than that, it's over for good when it's over.

As a forever GM myself, I cannot help but give him the majority of the blame here. He is final arbitrator of what happens for rolls like that, he chose instant gory death. I really dont think we can classify that as an honest mistake.

Should the players have amended the campaign for her? Yes, I think so. But I cannot help but blame the GM for the majority share.

>>23680646>>23680637I suppose it may seem sociopathic, but I believe that everyone should be equal in a game, and that nobody deserves special treatment based on age/sex/relationships. People should be treated based on what they accomplish, how they accomplish it, and how careful they are. And things such as that. In my mind, bringing a little girl to a game is the same as bringing your girlfriend to a game. Even if everyone agrees to it, as soon as it starts to affect the ability for everyone else to play (And they cut the session short on her behalf), it isnt worth the trouble.

>>23680566>The players didnt decide ask for a reroll. The little girl was the only one who wasnt having fun.No, I'm pretty sure that the fact they didn't ask for a reroll doesn't mean they found it fun.I'm pretty sure that if the GM had ruled that the shot just ripped off the guy's ear, and let the adventure continue, they would have had more fun.

>>23680429>I'm not certain the other players would have apreciated their Xtreme Grimdark setting becoming a lot more permissive.Not killing the two characters for this one fumbled roll would not have made the setting a lot more permissive.

This is ultimately the DMs fault, while each member of the group can voice their preferences, is the DM the one to go a build a game that is fun for everyone taking in consideration everyones idea of fun. Its all about how you deal with the situation at hand, "failed check? the bullet blows your other arm shoulder, you are now one handed and barely holding the girl, you should ask for help."

You can be grimdark without going the "EVERTHING DIES FOREVER" path. If you can't, then you are a bad DM

If i take in consideration this:>The manticore was flying about to attack, so we decided she needed to get up no matter the warnings the GM gave about rushing this action. >I called the session early there, which everyone was cool about.

The DM was full aware of what he was going to do and he decided to do it aniway ruining the fun for everyone.

>>23680645There is a subtle difference between "no fun" and "psychological trauma", you ass.Don't spew bullshit about "game integrity" in this particular case, where instead of simple killing of PC's characters (sorry, bad roll, you fall to death), GM decided to be a jerk (bad roll, you fall to death and blow your childhood's hero brain in process.)

They invited her. He didn't insinuate her in. The players are equally important, allowances can and should be made for new ones.

And yes, you are coming off as a fucking sociopath. She was eleven, it was her first real game, and her first serious experience with an RPG is now murdering her brother's character and falling to her death.

>>23680666Chaos can resurrect a person to be alive and well. It happened at least once during the Storm of Chaos, but the guy who was resurrected was promptly nailed to a banner and tortured. There might be some mind rape to be expected, unless you can somehow persuade or coerce your way around that, if you're letting a Daemon do it for you. Remember, always read the fine print.

>>23680645>Do you want to sacrificed the integrity of a game that everyone else enjoyed in order to cater to only one of the players.The integrity of the game did not rely on killing these characters that way.

>>23680610>Primary school kid needs to accept the consequences of their decisionsNot really.

A lot of parenting is about protecting kids from consequences... otherwise literally every kid would either accidently kill themselves, or be raped. The whole point is so that they realise what could have happened, so they can learn from it.

Fuck, even in the workplace, if it wasn't for coworkers of mine covering for me or mentoring me I would have fucked up my career before I was experienced enough to realise what to do.

If you don't understand this, you seriously lack empathy and understanding with other people.

>>23680689>but I believe that everyone should be equal in a gameIt sounds nice in theory, but it is pure bullshit.Pandering someone is one thing, but good GM knows that he has to adjust his idea for game to Players (their age, sex, belief, phobies etc.).

>>23680683I'm a forever DM myself, and i agree with you.I been in many situations when i have to decide between killing everyone forever or use dm fiat to keep the campaign going.

I never kill a player unless1.- they are actually trying to sacrifice themselves full aware of the consecuences for the sake of other2.- they are being complety retarded3.- they are in a point of no return

>>23680714Did the brother brief them that they were going to need to cater to her special needs? They invited her because they heard she had played before, as mentioned in the story. I would personally assume that, if she had played before, she would understand the severity of the game.

>Players are equally important>So lets favor the new one

That is not quite right.

>>23680705And do you think the little girl would have been happy if only her character had died? It might have negated some of the pain, but her character still died. A character she made only to be close to her hero. There would have still been pain there.

>>23680718It is GRIMDARK Warhammer. Its integrity relies on being final, no take backs. Everyone deals with consequences.

>>23680719Yeah, and I think that is a problem in itself. Kids should be taught to understand consequences early on instead of being told "You are special!" their entire lives. But I wont let that get in the way of this.

>>23680715It was only possible because Archaon binded Volkmar soul to his dead body on that battlefield (Or Volkmar having such focused mind that his soul was still there refusing to go, I'm not sure which one), and thanks to that Be'lakor could "ressurect him".Exception proving a rule, I guess.

>>23680764>It is GRIMDARK Warhammer. Its integrity relies on being final, no take backs. Everyone deals with consequences.Yeah. That means the players don't ask for rerolls. That doesn't mean the GM must choose the worst consequences for every action.

>>23680810>I disagree with having to adjust game to individual players. It just ends up with the DM coddling the players.That's just wrong. It just ends up with the DM adjusting the game to individual players. It's not all or nothing. It's never all or nothing.

>>23680751It's /tg/, there were always going to be a few autistic neckbeards here who are the kind of people that would watch a kid drowning and say to themselves THEY DIDN'T THINK THE CONSEQUENCES THROUGH, THE KID DYING IS BOTH A GOOD EXAMPLE TO THE PARENT AND THE CHILD NOT TO DO THAT AGAIN, KIDS ARE BEING CODDLED TOO MUCH NOWADAYS ACCORDING TO THE NEWS before wondering why they're foreveralone.

They wake up sitting in a dark room. They hear a laugh coming from the darkness of a long hallway nearby.

They aren't in the realm of Morr. A Master Grey Wizard is using illusion magic to fuck with them all. They find themsevles in a variety of places, facing various challenges, but it's only to test the famous Magnus the Mercenary who has survived so much. The Grey Wizard has a job and wants to see if this guy is legit.

Dear sister may have heard about epic battles using strength of arms, but now she is going to have to use her abilities to bring light to the shadows of illusion. Maybe this wizard will be more impressed with her than with Magnus.

Makes little girl not cry, game continues and brings her into the fold by letting her use her abilities to help the group in a big way on the first (Now second) game.

>>23680809Its true, it doesnt need to be the worst possible. But honestly, I think it was actually a really flavorful way for that to play out. He lunges for her, but is just out of reach. Thinking quickly, he thrusts out his gun for her to grab onto. Squirming and trying to get up, she accidentally hits the trigger. Her last sight is of Magnus, face blown off, as she plummets to her death.

It captures the Grimdark essence rather well.

>>23680833Aye, it isnt black and white. I still prefer straight black.

>>23680834>What fuckin "special needs" did you seen in OP's story?!The little girl's need to be spared from a tragedy. Im not saying they did cater to it, but everyone else is saying that they should have, which I disagree with.

>>23680844I was making a joke referring to the fact that Communism, a virtually perfect system on paper, never works. I clarified my real feelings in a later post.

>>23680566>The little girl was the only one who wasnt having fun.No, the entire game shut down there. Those deaths (and the eleven-year-old bursting into tears over killing her childhood hero) killed the session for everybody.

>>23680803Yes, im full aware of the differences yet they are not even close to paranoia

I only dm paranoia two or three times at best, and i found death in it to not be a consecuence of greater importante like in D&D or warhammer.In D&D is a good plot device for parties without access to any form of resurrection and for wahammer is the ultimate consecuence.

>>23680764I'm not sure if you understand what grimdark actually is. Grimdark is not killing PC's off two at a time. Grimdark is having this girl permanently scar her favorite character with her actions. The roll results in disfigurement, but they get another chance. I see this as a much better solution that fits the grimdark scene.

Different systems are going to need differing playstyles. See>>23680763>I never kill a player unless>1.- they are actually trying to sacrifice themselves full aware of the consecuences for the sake of other>2.- they are being complety retarded>3.- they are in a point of no return

Clearly, this person's never GM'd Paranoia, because that requires an utterly different playstyle.

Similarly, Warhammer and D&D are going to play differently, and need different approaches to GMing, just like your Battletech campaign is going to play differently to Dark Heresy.

This isn't even getting into fudging things/giving a better ending to a long-playing character to make little girls not cry.

>>23680925Really? I have been using at least half a dozen different arguments. Ill go ahead and sum them up for you now.

>The little girl was informed that this was a serious game>The little girl was warned that it was a bad idea>To deviate the game would be to damage the integrity of the setting and/or the game>To make exceptions based on sex/age/relationships is wrong>Players should take responsibility for their actions>Nobody likes to die, but going hysterical because somebody(ies) died is not good.>The little girl did not fit in>The little girl ruined the other player's fun by cutting the session short

>>23679659>>23679675Just talk to your GM about reversing it somehow dude. I'm serious, explain to him the situation here and that and how your sister feels, having ruined part of her childhood and feeling like she's ruined your five years of enjoyment. Just talk to the GM, and ask him, just this once, for an exception.

I just started a new Pathfinder campaign, my sis (12yrs old) is in on it. She's a half elf druid, lawful good. So far she's being absolutely adorable, naive and helping everyone she can. As DM, I'm having a hard time thinking of cool, sis friendly adventures that everyone else will still have fun with. Got any ideas, /tg/.>pic is NOT what we want

>damage the integrity of the setting>the DM looks at the kid, tears welling up in her eyes as she rolls a fumble>exchanges a glance with OP, decides to be a bro, says that the gun goes off and narrowly misses Magnus>the adventure continues>this anon raises his head. there's a feeling there, a scent on the wind, a distant sound you can't even really hear. he just knows, he doesn't know how he knows.>he goes to the kitchen and takes out a pack of matches. goes to the closet he keeps all his game stuff in when he's not using them. a single tear rolls down his cheek as he strikes the flame>"The integrity of the setting....has been compromised," he whispers, and drops the match onto the books

They come to a town where the Owlbears living in the forest are attacking, and even kidnapping people going into the forest, which is strange, because usually the Ownbears have been mostly keeping to themselves. Turns out the Owlbears have been driven away from their natural homes by a dread necromancer who's taken up residence in the old caves where they used to live. What's worse, he has a clutch of their new eggs he's holding hostage. Necromancer let them stay, and promised not to hurt the eggs if they'd fight for him. They don't trust him, but they have no choice. They're afraid he's doing horrible things to the ancestral remains of the dead ownbears buried deep inside the caverns.

Its a make believe game. No matter how you put is a make believe game. Now picture this, many of you as grown men, are arguing about abou the integrity of the game vs the well being of a little girl. If you as a grown man cant make the distincion of what should really matter in real life, why do you expect a little girl should?Its a make believe game and nothing more.

>>23680996>>23681012It is when you are trying to find anything to hold onto so you dont fall, while holding onto a gun. Unless you are going to say that she doesnt understand how guns work? I think it is fairly natural that if you are holding onto a gun and intent on finding something to hold on to, your hands might find their way into the trigger.

Now, it might not be entirely fair, but I think it is at least realistic. Which doesnt excuse it, but if they had talked through it a bit instead of ending the session because of hysterics, we might get a better idea about the motives and they could have negotiated something.

>>23680956I actually dm'd paranoia but for no more than 2 or 3 sessions.That example was entirely talking about warhammer and similar games where death is a permanent

Death in every game is different as you say, what i dont understand is why >>23680771 brings paranoia to the table when death is not a consecuence of importance in it, death in paranoia is hilarious.

What i'm trying to point here is that as a DM is your job to play with the rules to maximize fun for everyone.Knowing death is irreversible in warham i usually apply what i said here >>23680763, my players have enough in their minds with the fact that a single dice can ampute them permanently.For a game like DyD, if my players have access to resurrection i'm not going to treat death as a consecuence of importance, i'll shift to more plot or story consecuences.

But then again, that is my way of dm'ing, everyone is different and have different goals

>>23680968>To deviate the game would be to damage the integrity of the setting and/or the game>To make exceptions based on sex/age/relationships is wrong

Say what?How exactly not blowing Magnus brain would be considered as "damaging integrity of the setting"?And what "exception"? GM pulled a dickish move, it was more "exception" or "deviation" from his side.

In summary, you are an ass.

Even old stories of Hellbrandt Grimm weren't as grim as your sick version of WFRP.

>>23681032A key part of child psychology is that if anything goes wrong, even if it's out of their control, the child will always blame herself. It's part of that egocentric nature. You see this a lot in instances of divorce, where the kid is paranoid her parents are splitting up because it's her fault.

The fact that it was the roll of the dice is irrelevant to her. The fact that the GM arbitrated everything the way he did is irrelevant to her. She is wholly convinced that the death of her childhood hero is honestly and truthfully all her fault, and that's devastating.

I agree: if this kills the girl's interest in the hobby if not wholly scar her mentally, you should have it out with your GM. This shit isn't cool.

To all of those saying that Magnus needed to get shot in order to keep the tone of the setting: fine, but why kill him? Why not just blow his eyeball out or something. Then Magnus still gets terribly disfigured, and the FUCKING ELEVEN YEAR OLD GIRL doesn't get scarred for life.

>>23680982Aaand from psyhological point of view this is bullshit.Kids start to "thinking ahead" and question opinions of their authorities (parents, older siblings etc) only at 12-14 years of age. That's why they suddenly demand to be treated as "adult" at that age.

>>23681087Actually, no; even for the most grimdark setting, two characters getting killed on a single roll is an exception, not a rule. The GM was being stupid by having that happen in that way. You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

>>23681048No need to even bend the rules in this situation; some bad shit was going to go down since the roll failed, but it didn't have to be "You fall and die and also murder your brother's character" to a little girl in her first fucking session.

Even if you had to bend the rules, OP said the group's numbers were flagging enough that they felt the need to invite an 11 year old girl to play WFRP. Not driving away a new player on their first session when you need new players is ALWAYS worth fudging the rules, no matter how autistic you are about setting integrity.

>>23681120Was what she really did wrong? If she rolled ace on the test, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Even if she fouled the test, if the GM didn't say she outright pops Magnus's head like a melon and falls to her death herself, we wouldn't have this conversation.

But we are. Because it did happen. It's good to have this conversation, but there are things at stake here.

>>23681087And your disagreement is why several of the good anons here believe you to be socially, if not mentally, retarded. For a guy (I assume) who keeps pushing "consequences have actions" you don't seem to be grasping a lot of very basic social facts. Like, potentially diving people away from the hobby is a horrible move. Or, GMs should have some basic awareness of the situation for that reason. Or, I don't know, basic human decency. (Yes, I'm aware we're on 4chan and I'm talking about decency.)

You do not do potentially damaging shit in games. Especially to fucking kids. Period.

>>23681065>What i'm trying to point here is that as a DM is your job to play with the rules to maximize fun for everyone.From your strident tone, it sounded like you applied >>23680763 to ALL your games, including Paranoia, for every death. Might want to clarify next time permadeath.

"I'm going to try to sneak through the GREEN level security area to avoid the rampaging killbot.""Are you sure? Friend Computer sees everything and will execute you for that.""Uhh... I'll go blast the killbot, then.""It's got BLUE armour; you've only got a RED laser pistol and you'll die.""I'll, uh, put a few credits into this vending machine to get a free trip coupon!""You know, the vending machine's rigged to explode."

"...Is there any way out of this that doesn't involve my character dying?"

>>23681031>Which doesnt excuse it, but if they had talked through it a bit instead of ending the session because of hysterics, we might get a better idea about the motives and they could have negotiated something.

You're still treating kids as adults. An 11 year old isn't going to "negotiate" to determine a "motive".

Look, this is the way I think it should have played out.>Critical fail is rolled with little girl holding the end of a gun for dear life>DM who would NORMALLY kill off both characters for this kind of bullshit gets the girl to spend a fate point to have the gun jam when the trigger was pulled>Both players survive. Little girl relieved, big bro amused, DM pissed.>DM talks to big bro after game "Not cool man">Big bro sticks up for little sister because he's not a jackass, but hidden in there is an admission>Big bro and sister talk about session afterwards. She had fun, but this is where big bro says that in that sort of situation, they were in serious danger of dying, and they were VERY lucky to survive. Mention that if the DM says "that might not be a good idead" that she should not do it (until she gets more experienced).>Next week is better.

>>23681120>I mean, I am no psychology major, but I still think that she should understand what she did wrong, and what happens as a result.She did nothing wrong. Her levitation spell ran out earlier than expected, and then she rolled poorly.

She made no poor tactical or strategic decisions, and even if she did, she is A FUCKING CHILD.

Children's brains are literally not developed enough to process actions and consequences the way adult brains do. Treating her like an adult is fucking retarded.

Hell, even teenagers can't properly comprehend actions and consequences, which is part of why they do so much stupid bullshit.

Stop talking until you have a basic understanding of psychology or neurology.

>>23681120It was just mentioned that children think egocentrically and their way of thinking is going to be different. It's comically ironic that your own egocentric thinking has you convinced children think like adults. Seeing as you haven't realized this and you are clearly not a child, you have actually solidified the "autists on 4han" myth and turned it into truth.

>>23680968>The little girl ruined the other player's fun by cutting the session shortNo, the DM did.

I'll admit. Bringing an 11 year old in on some WHFRP is a bad idea. The game is fucking brutal and monstrous.

However, having her kill another players character based on one bad roll is pretty over the line. I'll give the DM a pass, and say that she didn't know that the character was that important to her. But still having the 11 year old kill another player's character based on one bad roll in her first session is a pretty shitty thing to do as a DM.

>>23681208>But still having the 11 year old kill another player's character based on one bad roll in her first session is a pretty shitty thing to do as a DM.Don't forget her own character dying in the process because of said one bad roll.

>>23681087Do you really believe that in all those years of warhammer the GM never made exceptions? Never before did the dice rolled so bad? Also your make believe game its not more important then the well being of a person.

>>23681229No I've been stuck working with a few autists before. It's not a severe autism, but the anon in question is most definitely autistic. Note the post where he puts age/sex/relationships as equal and parallel. Dead giveaway.

>>23681185>She made no poor tactical or strategic decisions, and even if she did, she is A FUCKING CHILD.That's not even a point, the shot was also effect of bad roll. Honestly, good GM would suggest using luck points or something like that at this point.Not blowing one's character brain and sending other to death.

>>23681309At the least, if there was going to be the chance of something catastrophic like that, there should be a chance of other events happening, like the bullet grazing the scalp or taking off his ear. Far as we can tell, the GM just went "WHOOP HEAD GO SPLOOSH"

>>23681125But, like I said before, if the girl hadnt started the waterworks, the game probably would have gone on.>>23681136Maybe, but I consider it an inspired and realistic situation. Go ahead and reread a few of my posts and you can see why.>>23681138That is probably something to consider. I did forget about the dwindling character base. I never said everyone else is scot-free. I just think that the girl deserves some of, if not most of, the blame. >>23681149See now, if the GM hadnt warned her that there would be consequences, I would agree completely. But she was both warned and had bad luck. That is doubly bad, and doubly consequential.>>23681153Probably. I already acknowledged that I am probably a sociopath for thinking this way. But that doesnt mean I am automatically wrong. And, Ill go ahead and say it, What the DM says goes.>>23681162Sure, there were other alternatives. But I think, as I made two posts about before, that his decision was a good one. And most of those alternatives are making exceptions based on the kid.>>23681184See now, if he had said she couldnt spend a fate point, that might change things. But, after rereading it, it never even says she couldnt. It doesnt even say that she didnt. Magnus was out, but it doesnt brush on her.>>23681185>>23681197I already admitted that I am not a psychologist. It just doesnt matter, because I cant process the idea that children are entirely retarded. I have met a few kids who were intelligent, rational human beings. Even if they are the exception, it goes to show that it isnt impossible.>>23681208I agree. But it was actually two bad rolls and at least one tactical mistake, which I think constitutes such a resort.>>23681238Like you said; It is a game. I dont know if the DM knew that those characters were so important to her, but he didnt actually attack her. He continued the make believe game. The child was traumatized by this make believe game. It did have importance, apparently.

>>23681331We're trying to figure out the potential extent of damage to the girl and are generally just voicing our opinion of the whole mess. I think this is ultimately a case of GM analysis, and a major portion of the responses are that "this shouldn't have happened."

>>23681306>Did you suffer trauma like this?Well, no. Because I didn't have the emotional investment in the other player's characters as OP's little sister had in his. But I fumbled and characters, both mine and others, were maimed and killed because of it. It was all fun.

>>23681357Oh wow, great logic there. I could have sworn arguments required actual ideas behind them other than "Nobody agrees so you must be wrong.>>23681392Oh no, I have already conceded several points. I just think that everyone else is like that by not even considering for a second that the girl is at all to blame, so I am trying to convince them otherwise. I already said that I dont think the others are scot-free. I just think that there is a flipside that nobody seems to be considering.

>>23681334>But I think, as I made two posts about before, that his decision was a good one.Towards what end? Maintaining the versimilitude of the setting? Maintaining rational possibilities of what could happen in that situation? It's true that Magnus's head going pop is a viable resolution to a situation like that, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD have happened.

>>23681417>Oh wow, great logic there. I could have sworn arguments required actual ideas behind them other than "Nobody agrees so you must be wrong.People have been arguing actual ideas for the entire thread.

My point is that while everyone disagreeing with you does not itself MAKE you wrong, it is good evidence that you probably are wrong, otherwise there'd be at least one other person who shared your views here.

It would have been fine if it was just her character that died because of the botched roll and it probably would have taught her a lesson, but killing another PC because of a flubbed roll by a new player is just a straight up sign of a dick

>>23681367`Dude, it's totally the opposite in my case. I accidentally create that are too tough or resilient that they don't die unless the DM deliberately scales up the encounters or I myself deliberately make very tactically idiotic moves that make it very obvious that I want a new character.

>>23681363You can only burn fate to save yourself, technically. That said, the best way to resolve this situation, assuming she shows up to play again, is to fudge the rules and let her burn fate to avert the whole accident. Added points if the GM can spin it so that it sounds to her like she went from murdering her bro's character to saving his life.

>>23681452See now, that is my real exigence here. Nobody has even considered that my views could be right. Go ahead and reread my argument again. If, after that, you can admit that what I am saying might be a bit right, that is that. But there has been so little concession here that it is starting to make me a bit frustrated.

>>23681444>Toward the end of good story telling and realism.Which would suffer soooo much if he was painfully grazed by bullet for example? And had a big scar running by his whole face as a daily remainder for Lacey that he sacrificed for her?

>>23681496>>23681493In my mind, what happened was the most dramatic thing that is possibly plausible. Perhaps too dramatic for the audience, but if this was a book rather than a game, and there was no child crying, I think there would be little debate here on whether it was good.

>>23681479>If, after that, you can admit that what I am saying might be a bit right, that is thatBut I think you are 100% wrong, based on my experience both as player and GM.Why should I make it 95% wrong?

>>23681238>>23681334Of course, she is eleven and it was her hero. You on the other hand have no stakes at this but still is defending the notion that yes, people shoud be hurt because the game demands it.I am starting to worry about you anon, you dont seem to be a very happy person and by your logic you must blame yourself for a lot that it isnt actually your fault.

>>23681535And I was talking about games I played when I was 11 and younger with my uncle. Part of it was because I was terrible and built what I thought sounded cool. Part of it was because everybody at the table, including me, thought that the games became much more fun if characters could die anytime.

>>23681542>I am totally wrong about all eight of the points I listed out before?That there is an issue where nobody cares to waste the effort countering eight separate points of idiocy, when you've been an asshole this entire thread.

>>23681417I remember a loooooong time ago when I played Monopoly with dad. The game went on for literally days and days. We were both going around the board, trading a property here, or selling a property there, putting a house on Old Kent Road and generally not really "playing to win". Then dad had to travel interstate for a week, and mum took over. She played the game like a boss, whacking hotels down and wiping me out. I tried to build up houses to stand a chance, but by then I'd lost too much and became bankrupt a few circuits of the board later. I left the game in tears.

Was I a little bitch? Probably.

But that was the different styles my parents had. My dad played to have fun/socialise, whereas mum played to win/played the game the way it was intended.

I won't say that either of them were wrong, it's just that I wasn't prepared for the switch in playstyle... and I was just a kid.

>>23681601>To make exceptions based on sex/age/relationships is wrongThis is unequivocably wrong. Humans are not built on an identical template, and things should be handled on a case by case basis. Absolute equality in all cases is an idiotic philosophy.

>Players should take responsibility for their actionsFor what actions? She didn't actually fuck up. Getting you and your friend killed, outright, should be a consequence of months of unrelenting idiocy and bad decisions. This was the result of one bad roll.

>Nobody likes to die, but going hysterical because somebody(ies) died is not good.When you're eleven, this is a completely normal reaction.

>The little girl did not fit inShe'd have fit in just fine if the GM wasn't a complete shithead and had taken into account the fact that he's got an eleven-year-old girl at the table. The rest of the group could absolutely have had fun doing stuff that was appropriate with an eleven-year-old at the table. Not everything has to be GRITTY and ADULT and REALISTIC.

>When the girl cut the session short, people were unable to have any more funShe didn't cut the session short, the GM did, because he made an eleven year old girl cry. Had he not done that, they could have completed the session normally.

>The little girl was informed that this was a serious gameThis was her first "serious" game. How in the fuck was she to know what that entailed?>The little girl was warned that it was a bad ideaAgain, her first time ever. And it wasn't her decision to have Magnus reach the gun out to grab her.>To deviate the game would be to damage the integrity of the setting and/or the gameAnd the GM couldn't have just fucked up Magnus' face instead? He HAD to kill him to keep with Warhammer's tone? A blown out eyeball wouldn't have been fine?>To make exceptions based on sex/age/relationships is wrongBecause an 11 year old girl and a 20 something guy are on the same mental wavelength? lol okay>Players should take responsibility for their actionsYou're right... and it wasn't her action. She made the logical choice she should have made: used the spell, and when that failed and Magnus chose to stick out the gun, she grabbed it. >Nobody likes to die, but going hysterical because somebody(ies) died is not good.And an 11 year old girl is capable of keeping rational in a scenario like this?>The little girl did not fit inSure. It was a dick move for the OP to not let the GM know ahead of ti- oh, wait, he did that, and the GM agreed, and knew a little girl would be playing>The little girl ruined the other player's fun by cutting the session shortAgain: social retardation. You apparently don't realize how little girls function.

For the second one and third ones, you applied this situation to it. Im not asking whether those things are wrong in this situation, I am asking if they are wrong over all. Which they are. That is called concession, my friend. Where you say "You know, in normal situations, you might be right, BUT..."

For the fourth one, you are saying that she would have fit in, if the game had changed. That is like saying "Sure, I love tomatoes. But only if you grind them up, add spices, and put them on a pizza."

And for the final one, the GM did not make the call to end the session. OP did when he saw the little girl crying.

>>23681671>You apparently don't realize how little girls function.That shouldn't even be a point.Hell, I'm wondering how I would react to such dick-move from GM.And probably I would have to be reaaaly composed not to berate him at least.

>>23681706First one: Remind us of that when you hit retirement age, and we'll laugh at you.

Second and Third: no one really cares if your arguments aren't intrinsically wrong outside of this circumstance--they're wrong *in this circumstance*, which you're trying to apply it to, so that's the only area of argument we care about.

If my opinion counts for anything, I think OP should talk with the DM. In my group, we have a policy of "everybody gets one." I don't mean that every character gets one miracle, as that game mechanic is covered by fate points. What I mean is that a new player gets one chance to learn from an error, especially one that screws others over, before the effects start being permanent. I think the best outcome would be that the next session is a do-over with the session in OP's story being Lacey's nightmare.

>To make exceptions based on sex/age/relationships is wrongThis is only applicable LAWFULLY. Everyone is not to be discriminated against and are equal UNDER THE LAW. This does not mean that everyone IS LITERALLY equal.

SOCIALLY however....

SOCIALLY you treat everyone DIFFERENTLY based on THEM AS AN INDIVIDUAL PERSON. Note that this doesn't give you free reign to be a racist/sexist faggot, because that disrupts people's lawful rights.

EVERYONE has special needs. In some cases it might be your friend who needs a shoulder to cry on if he's going through a hard time, or maybe you need to give him a kick up the arse to get a job. Or alternatively, you refrain from making a joke about a guy dying in a car crash, which would have been funny normally, but is innappropriate if your friend's dad just died in a car accident.

If you treat everyone the same, none of them feel like you care about them personally. And you end up in horrible situations because you didn't pick up on and act on social cues.

Fun question to go along with this topic. This situation is the result of one single critically failed roll. My question is, what if earlier in the encounter he had failed a roll to shoot his musket critically? Should this have resulted in him dying, plus whoever was beside him dying? Exploding muskets are a rather common occurrence. My problem is with his critical chart. If this character had lived for so long, they were obviously not playing a knife edge, one crit fail roll and your dead style. So then why did it turn into this? Answer? Bad knee jerk reaction by the GM.

>>23681897Well I don't really see him dying from musket misfire. It isn't very likely game-wise (Character with nice amount of HP, armor, etc).But let's assume he will die.No else should die - this is a musket, not a canon.Girl would be sad - her great hero died. But at least she wouldn't kill him herself by accident, like it happened in OP's story.Magnus could pass some mission on her before dying, or simply telling her to live - it would give her focus and will to continue playing.

But as I said, with whole musket misfire - losing some fingers or arm would be more probable.

>>23681958I still opt for Realm of Morr adventures.Remember girl's character also plunged to death.They could be fighting for Magnus salvation for example - Morr would let them to his dominion together if they do some missions for him.

Why is there one of you guys in every story thread ever? Is there a league of /tg/ skeptics or something? Or are you just one guy, that has taken on a holy burden to call every single story ever "fake?" Is it a curse? Like you just can't believe any story ever? I DEMAND EXPLANATION

And you know what makes this whole thing worse that everyone seems to have forgotten? She and her brother made Lucy when she was 7-8, meaning they worked on that character together for 3-4 years. It wasn't just Magnus she had a lot invested in.

>>23681788>k OP should talk with the DM. In my group, we have a policy of "everybody gets one." I don't mean that every character gets one miracle, as that game mechanic is covered by fate points. What I mean is that a new player gets one chance to learn from an error, especially one that screws others over, before the effects start being permanent. I think the best outcome would be that the next session is a do-over with the session in OP's story being Lacey's nightmare.

Good soloution, and one of the few times "it was all a dream" would work. It shows Lacey's player that things CAN go wrong, she get sto learn from the first car wreck of a game, see actions have consequences, and Lacey's character and Magnus can still survive. Its decency to go by the "everybody gets one" rule, and in paticular in the case of an 11 year old's first game. From a human fucking decency perspective, it was a cock move off DM, from a gaming perspecitve, 1 fumbled roll shouldnt immediately equal 2 player deaths, paticularly when one play (Lacey's Player) is learning the ropes.

The DM may have just made one stupid, stupid ass decision. I dont think he was actually intending to really upset an 11 year old, but he did, and "intergretity" of the setting doesnt carry it here

>>23682213Too much spoiler? How is there spoiler for what is supposed to be the justification for an entire, vigorous discussion? The description encapsulates the story as reasonably succintly as possible.

>>23682256>An eleven-year-old girl joins her big brother's Warhammer Fantasy game, his character being a childhood hero of hers. In her first session, a single botched roll leads to both killing her brother's character and her own death as a result; she leaves the table crying. /tg/ has it out.

>An eleven-year-old girl joins her big brother's Warhammer Fantasy game, his character being a childhood hero of hers. Tragedy occurs. /tg/ has it out.

Yeah, after making (even if inadvertantedly) OP's kid sister unduely distraught he owes them that much. Hell, it can even have negative consequences for the character's Lacey/Magnus, but making her kill her brothers character they helped make together and had for 4 years... in her first game... on one fumble roll... Doesn't take a genius to see thats not quite right.

Shit, I need to do my dissertation. But this actually got me this thread.

Yes, why the /tg/ of yesteryear would have no problem standing up to the little devilspawn, and her tears of acid poison. Why, we would have pulled arms on her for daring to weep at the table, and with fire and sword would have cast her to the ninth hell for her sins against the glorious Grimdark, hallowed be its name.

Anybody in this 300+ post thread who even for a second advocated what happened should die in a fire. I sincerely hope all of your characters choke on dicks and die.

The DM was blatantly cheating and abusing their power. He was dictating that an event, which is not actually suggested by the rules, in an abstract scenario, which was so absolutely catastrophic; inflicted instant death. Any other result could have happened, such as slipping and falling, but instead the DM chose to go beyond the rules for the sole purpose of fucking over both players, including OP's newbie little sister.

AND THEN, in addition to that, as if cheating against new blood was not bad enough, the DM then fails to advise the little girl about her remaining Fate point, which she still had after using skywalk.

BUT even that pales in comparison to OP himself, who is absolute scum compared even to the GM.

OP complains about not having a fate point in order to save himself, and is fully aware of fate points and the situation; and then he PURPOSEFULLY neglects to advise his little sister on how to avoid such terrible result herself. Were I not Christian, I would punch the GM in the teeth for devastating my little sister's love for the hobby with such a bullshit "house-rule" made up on the fly.

I hope that I can find all of their IP adresses, and the people here who posted in their defense. Just so I never have to play with cheaters so cruel and callous.

It colors my view of TG itself, to know that people like this exist, in threads where I or others are seeking advice.

What i'm trying to figure out is:If you brought your kid sis into the game, because the group showed interest in her to grow in numbers, then WHY did the GM pulled such a move.

Don't go tell me because "we can't break the immersion" because you know that's bullshit on every single view point possible.

Your GM is a duchebag that probably had this planned, there's no way you pull a move like that on a kid new to the game that played a few times in 3 months and is trying to adapt to a bigger group, even if you assume she knew the rules the problem comes from bad luck on a roll and punishing a little kid like that is brutal.

OP the damage is already done and little knowing your GM has spelled doom for your group.Talk to your sister, try to make her feel better, offer to run a couple of games with Lacy and magus in either the garden of morr or the realm of chaos. looking for a way to escape maybe painting one of the badguys up to resemble the GM in a certain aspect.

as for your group, your GM probably doesn't realize this yet but he has spelled certain death for your gaming group, not only did he cause a player to leave their first session, you haven't admitted it to yourself yet but now you have a sinking feeling that he is an awful GM, who has now wounded the trust of his players. Even if you don't see yourself leaving, I'm sure your other friends are having similar thoughts. You need to take charge of this, next session if possible. Offer to take over GM'ing for a little while I'm almost certain your sister would come back to another game if you were running it, and it would give the other GM some time to relax and not have to worry about it for a while.

If he is not willing to do this. Run. Get away from that group as fast as possible.

>>23683664>Offer to take over GM'ing for a little while I'm almost certain your sister would come back to another game if you were running itThis right here. This is one of your best chances to salvage things and help preserve your sister's interests in the game, if not gaming as a whole. Either on a one-on-one or with the rest of the group, you have to do something with her to prove that it's all okay. What happened last night is an exception to the rule, so she shouldn't expect everything to end up the way it did forever.

I can't help but imagine myself being 11 years old, and getting to adventure alongside Optimus Prime, Luke Skywalker, Batman or Avatar Aang or Harry Potter or Edward Elric... anybody.

And then being the reason they die. Even being the one to pull the trigger, while they're trying to rescue you. (From my POV, I'd blame myself, so, yeah.)

Yeah, I would feel absolutely horrible and inconsolable. I think most kids would.

I think that if the "spirit" or "integrity" of a game would support or condone traumatizing the fuck out of a little kid, that I would ignore or trample upon that "integrity."

The spirit of any game should be about having fun in some fashion. Sometimes bad luck or tragedy happens, though. But it shouldn't be like this; not in a way that would turn a little girl to tears in the first session.