Craig, thanks for that clarification on the expected sustained usb-c data rate.

So, this is 10gb/s USB isn't it? That should be 1 Giga Byte per second or more max. 4kp50 12 bit would be over 600MB/s. But the issue with USB historically has been the extreme issues trying to hit peak transfers. Can this version of usb hit close to peak, if there was a drive built fast enough in sustained peak write (as we are expecting from higher density flash alternatives)? The other issue is most drives have a lower sustained write and that degrades when they heat up.

If it can record DCI 4Kp30 but not p60 under the expert's conditions, could it record p50 or p48 instead?

Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.

I wouldn't think there's 4K resolution on a super 16 sensor area crop from this sensor?

Correct, not 4K, but something that utilizes the image circle of most Super 16 lenses. Would be a little larger than 2K DCI on this sensor, 2704x1600 pixels would give you a Suoer 16 image, 12.52x7.41mm.

Wayne Steven wrote:It would be useful to mount on a crane, car or remote head and monitor and control from the phone.

I agree. While there's no wifi implemented in the camera it is technically possible to send video via bluetooth and I really think BMD should investigate that. It's yet another way they can address the fact that the screen can't be articulated at all.

Otherwise some of us will be faced with running HDMI cables in situations where the stress on the cable and connections will not be good.

Craig Seeman wrote: I agree. While there's no wifi implemented in the camera it is technically possible to send video via bluetooth and I really think BMD should investigate that. It's yet another way they can address the fact that the screen can't be articulated at all.

Otherwise some of us will be faced with running HDMI cables in situations where the stress on the cable and connections will not be good.

I repeat again:Theoretical maximum of 721Kbit/s - in the best case scenario. The error correction in the stream eats 30% of the available bandwidth, that leaves us with ~0,5 MBit/s. That will be a nice blurry 320x240 live video stream.Someone must add the MP4 h264 encoder into the camera, write a QoS protocol with an intelligent bit-rate control. Someone has to implement this into the mobile phone apps.

You can get a reasonable 640x360 at 700kbps. Of course that all depends on the writing the encoder for the camera and decoder for the app. If need be you could drop the frame rate if needed. Obviously this wouldn't be great for fast motion content. I'm not claiming this is easy but it can be done and it might be a budget solution for some people even if it just assists in framing. It's certainly something that would be of interest for "the blogger" market in some cases even if it were a paid firmware upgrade with app.

Craig Seeman wrote:You can get a reasonable 640x360 at 700kbps. Of course that all depends on the writing the encoder for the camera and decoder for the app.

Again:Theoretical maximum of 721Kbit/s - in the best case scenario. The error correction in the stream eats 30% of the available bandwidth, that leaves us with ~0,5 MBit/s.Someone must add the MP4 h264 encoder into the camera. If h264 would have been an option of BMD cameras right from the beginning this would be a different case.BTW that means paying a license fee to the MPEG-LA and realtime encoding also is less efficient than doing it on your computer.

Craig Seeman wrote: It's certainly something that would be of interest for "the blogger" market in some cases even if it were a paid firmware upgrade with app.

I don't see why this camera should appeal to the "blogger" market?It got no IBIS, it got no AF and it has no full frame sensor aka bokeh-bokeh. I've yet to encounter a typical blogger who wouldn't complain about those things missing.

Unless you are saying that the pocket uses a very very old version of Bluetooth instead of using a few dollar chip with a latter version, that is very negative. In 2013 they incorporated co-inhabitation of 24mb/s wifi, a few years later actual 600mb/s. However, before that was 3mb/s mode with 2.1mb/s throughput, which seems to be a few years after this paper. The simple solution would be to use cheap phone chip to work along side the fpga and give wifi, hotspot, latter Bluetooth. HDMI 1.4b does 4k, so there should be cheap chips for that.

Robert Niessner wrote:I don't see why this camera should appeal to the "blogger" market?It got no IBIS, it got no AF and it has no full frame sensor aka bokeh-bokeh. I've yet to encounter a typical blogger who wouldn't complain about those things missing.

Perhaps you didn't watch the NAB interviews?Some of the marketing material about using the camera to record oneself?The record button on the front?

"Because it’s so small and easy to travel with, the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K is ideal for travel blogs and food videos. "and"Designed with all of the features you need built in, the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K doesn’t require external accessories or a large rig to capture great images. "Both on the product page AND described as such but BMD staff very directly.

They want a market. They've stated that. So if you want to blog and the screen doesn't articulate and you shouldn't need an external monitor.... you're left with the need for a bluetooth app for monitoring.

Craig, seems you aren't in the BMD thing since the beginning. Remember how the BMCC was announced with professional audio? It was barely usable.Audio inputs were noisy, had a strong attenuation in the low frequencies, no phantom power, and no live audio levels.What marketing says and what the product really is best for are often two different beasts.

Don't think that I wouldn't want a Bluetooth preview. I think it would be great if possible. I'm all in for more useful features. But I'm also realistical about what could be done and what not.

Actually I've been around since shortly after the beginning and we've seen marketing vs delivered product throughout.It seems the BMPCC4K is pretty close to a good response to the criticisms of the BMCC and original Pocket.There's always a bit of a tightrope between technology limits, targeted price, targeted market.

I don't expect them to do more R&D without a subsequent profit for their work.Just I think they may want to come out with a "Video Assist Monitor" specific to the BMPCC4k - External Monitor, External Power, USB-C to SSD recording for those who want all that or they'll get the "frankenrig" criticism again). I think a paid app for monitoring is worth while... if they can develop using the hardware already on board the camera. I'd expect them to charge for that and I'd be willing to pay.

BTW I thought I'd add that as per a previous "BMD Expert" response, they'll be no App coming from BMD. So one might expect they'll be a development protocol for third parties to take advantage of Bluetooth. So it's quite possible that what aspects are implemented (whether bluetooth monitoring or otherwise) will really be determined by third parties assuming the hooks are there.

Well, realistically Bluetooth can do it, if you support up to date Bluetooth. That old 750kb/s .... is just too far out of date.

But what people say, even a preview allows you to frame and see levels. But one thing you would need is a control that showed which parts of the image are in focus. You press the control and the camera calculates what is in focus and either paints an animation on the image, or sends a binary compressed bit map of the parts in focus. Or other industry scheme such as magnifying parts of the image for focusing. The overlay can change in intensity and colour based on how in focus under the proxy pixel is, and based on the degree of focus distribution across the pixels (the colour change for instance, could reflect the percentage of area under the pixel approaching, or in, focus ).

Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.

Craig Seeman wrote:BTW I thought I'd add that as per a previous "BMD Expert" response, they'll be no App coming from BMD. So one might expect they'll be a development protocol for third parties to take advantage of Bluetooth. So it's quite possible that what aspects are implemented (whether bluetooth monitoring or otherwise) will really be determined by third parties assuming the hooks are there.

What I'm going to say is out of left field. But something I've long planned to do myself.

Talking about monitoring over distance by wire, or off a crane for example. Li-Fi is a later optical free air network protocol. It is similar to wifi but uses light instead and they have reached hundreds of gigabits per second in testing. But the hardware is relatively cheap for a new technology.

My idea was to connect optical cable to it and you have a wired version which might far exceeded HDMI in bandwidth to monitor with. But stepping sideways, thunderbolt, which they should use instead of USB 3, has an optical cable version. It plugs into normal TB ports and in cable converts the signal to and from optical. So, that is going be 40mb/s+ (new pci-e standard coming). That too would have been a good solution, and for HDMI, which has been converted from TB/displayport in the past through special dongle.

I would take BM's statement about the PCC4K's suitability for vlogging in a more aspirational than factual way. Most vlogging cameras, I am aware of, do not have a front facing record button. But I hope BM keeps that idea in mind when they start work on the PCCm3, maybe it will be a vlogging camera.

I think in camera noise reduction is more useful when using highly compressed ProRes. As Uli says, you can apply in post for low compression. But in pixel hardware based noise reduction schemes would be good, but the hardware is done.

Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.

Wayne Steven wrote:What I'm going to say is out of left field. But something I've long planned to do myself.

Talking about monitoring over distance by wire, or off a crane for example. Li-Fi is a later optical free air network protocol. It is similar to wifi but uses light instead and they have reached hundreds of gigabits per second in testing. But the hardware is relatively cheap for a new technology.

My idea was to connect optical cable to it and you have a wired version which might far exceeded HDMI in bandwidth to monitor with. But stepping sideways, thunderbolt, which they should use instead of USB 3, has an optical cable version. It plugs into normal TB ports and in cable converts the signal to and from optical. So, that is going be 40mb/s+ (new pci-e standard coming). That too would have been a good solution, and for HDMI, which has been converted from TB/displayport in the past through special dongle.

As a follow-up. I remember there is a wireless consumerl 60ghz standard relessed after HDMI by the same people that does up to 36gb/s I think (28gb/s data channel). This makes me hopeful that support for a simple single on the HDMI output could enable it, then attach a suitable radio over fibre conduit onto that. At these frequencies the radio waves start acting like light.

But a HDMI to lifi dongle to optical cable to HDMI again is also a solution.

The reason I'm interested in wireless/optical here, is cheapness and the ability to run a single fine line down a crane, or more mobile equipment. The camera having it's own power source, could be run to a HDMI monitor by this single line. Having it in the optical line reduces outside interference, allowing a higher data rate result with less encryption. However if this standard is suitable and has a low profile dongle, it opens up some possibilities for camera use. HDMI had been used Bayer raw image packed before, maybe such a optical line could get too.

Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.

It was I’ll probably have an “auto” iris/shutter speed setting like the Micro camera has. On the Micro Cameras, yiu can set auto Iris, Auto Shutter Speed or a combo of both, in addition to full manual control.Thr new Pocket may add the ability to select a f/stop and have the camera set shutter speed for correct exposure, or the other way round.Cheers

Well according the Panasonic Mitch Gross, ProRes Raw is a codec of sorts, as the EVA1 does not output ProRes Raw, but rather a Raw data stream, that can be recorded as DNG type files or ProRes Raw on the Atomos recorder, so I am I am assuming it is a recorder implemented recording format, but not a compressed codec per SE, like ProRes HQ.

In the simplest of terms codec is compression, decompression (co-dec) and ProRes RAW is a form of compression followed by decompression.... as is cDNG. If RAW data is compressed/decompressed it is a codec.

Thanks Craig, that was my take on this. As cDNG and ProRes Raw are taking the raw camera data and processing the signal to record in into their respective formats, and applying some compression, hence my “Codec of sorts” comment.Cheers

Last edited by Denny Smith on Tue May 08, 2018 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Denny Smith wrote:Well according the Panasonic Mitch Gross, ProRes Raw is a codec of sorts, as the EVA1 does not output ProRes Raw, but rather a Raw data stream, that can be recorded as DNG type files or ProRes Raw on the Atomos recorder, so I am I am assuming it is a recorder implemented recording format, but not a compressed codec per SE, like ProRes HQ.

That's the case for all of the cameras that emit raw. The recorders have to be able to interpret the raw data stream, identify the header, frame specs, and and so on, and then they can package the data into the selected format. And of course to provide a preview they also have to de-mosaic the stream.

I agree with Mitch, ProRes raw is indeed a codec any way you look at it, since it's both a container and a compression spec.