Please add me to your fan group, Hitch. I do believe
I learn something new every time you post. Or at
least have something that I'm aware of more clearly
explained.

Shucks. Thanks, GL. I always enjoy your posts, as well. (Actually, you should email me with your authorial list--while I have a rule that forbids reviewing any books we've produced, we are all free to read/review books we have NOT.

"I think it is you who does not understand what a chapter--or a scene--actually constitutes. Only a moron would think that "merely" a change of scenery would constitute a "new scene." A scene change in a book is nothing more--nothing sexier or fancier or more brain-damaging--than a film's equivalent cut or "fade" from one scene to the next."

[i]"A chapter is basically like a movie scene. A new scene starts a new chapter. The length could be anything."[/i]

...then it would seem that you stole the argument from me to begin with. Not exactly a surprise.

"With regard to the rarity of scenebreaks, new unorthodox writers like Dorothy L. Sayers...."

You can stop right there because Sayers is the only good author you listed. And because probably every instance of a scene break they have is exactly the kind I said could come up once in a great while, mostly having to do with elasped time. So unless you've got something new to bring to the table, your arguments are baseless and senseless.

"Using Hogg as an exemplar is disingenuous."

What utter hokum! A dramatic change in POV is a dramtic change in POV. It matters not one iota if it's a change in narrator. A dramatic change in POV requires a new chapter if it's to be done correctly. A minor short change is obviously different as I've already said.

"And, actually, I'd point out that Dan Brown very effectively broke your rule that "a new chapter is always a new scene," (italic emphasis added) didn't he, creating the current ravenous hunger for "cliff-hanging" chapter breaks--but those chapter breaks aren't new scenes. That's a DEVICE, not a scene-break--but it's a new chapter."

Yes, and he was wrong to do it. But it is Dan Brown after all. Calling Dan Brown a writer is like calling Yoko Ono a singer.

"Innumerable great authors, for over 100 years, have used scenebreaks instead of chapter breaks...."

And I'll bet nearly every one of them used them only in the manner I said they could.

And regarding Tolkien, I'm afraid I'm in the same camp as the other Inklings who banned him from reading from his own work at their meetings after Hugo Dyson so famously ejactulated, "Oh no, not another f****ing elf!" You really need to get some better books. At least try reading the Inklings who were the good writers in the group. Obviously CS Lewis and Charles Williams top the list, but Warnie Lewis wrote some excellent history books as well .Hugo Dyson wrote no books that I know of, but his BBC lectures on Shakespeare were both charming and provocative. I'll leave you to your Jane Austen books and Cher albums.

I wouldn't take an argument from you as a gift, much less "steal" it. This is hardly rocket science. And your (as usual) attempts at diverting the discussion away from the point by being offensive won't work.

(And if you don't understand that Herbert was a great writer, you have other issues.)

We weren't discussing whether "scene-breaks" are used by GOOD writers, BAD writers, or whether [i]you[/i] have any taste whatsoever. You adamantly asserted that in large part, "scene breaks" don't exist, and that scene breaks ARE new chapters. I simply demonstrated that, as usual, you're wrong. YOU may not like Agatha Christie, Rex Stout, Dick Francis, Chandler, or anyone else I listed--but that wasn't my point. My point was simply to demonstrate that you misspoke, as usual, [u]asserting as FACT something which is merely your OPINION as to how things "ought" to be[/u].

You apparently don't comprehend the difference between a change in POV versus a change in narrator, and as this isn't English Lit class or your 6th-Grade Creative Writing class, (which I'm certain is in your recent memory) I'll not get into it here.

The FACT is that scenebreaks have existed forever, are used by writers of all calibers, are not "limited" to your narrow scope or comprehension of their usage, and are not "really" SUPPOSED to be chapters. [u]That's merely your opinion[/u], and as we know nothing whatsoever about you, we have no method to assess the value of your opinion. You've already asserted that "merely" being a best-selling author (or the bestselling author of all time, Christie), or being a major publishing house, doesn't meet your criteria for credibility--so I'm not sure how you'd assert your own expertise in the matter. For all we know, you're a 15-y.o. boy using his Mum's computer, so the rest is moot. Your "opinion" is demonstrably [i]only[/i] your opinion; I've listed numerous authors and publishing houses that assert otherwise, and which have published literally MILLIONS of books that don't work the way YOU think that they should.

So our choice seems to be your adamantine assertion that YOU are right, [i]versus[/i] all the publishers in the English-speaking World plus some of the top Golden Age authors PLUS some of today's best-selling authors. Wow, you're RIGHT! OBVIOUSLY, YOU are right, and [i]everyone else is wrong[/i].

I mean [i]really[/i]--do you truly not see how ridiculously absurd and insupportable your position is? You're going to argue about whether my list of bestselling authors and Big (then-8) 6 publishers DESERVES it or not, rather than just admit you spoke before you thought it through?

"Also, we're members of this forum. Our paths will cross simply because we both apparently are interested in the same posts. That's not 'following you around', that's normal participation on a forum."

And your showing up at my blogs is what? Mere coincidence? And I still think you're the moron who's been calling my house constantly. Do you really not understand there are such things as stalking laws? I've asked you repeatedly to stay away from me. For once in your life be smart enough to know when you aren't wanted.

"And your showing up at my blogs is what? Mere coincidence? And I still think you're the moron who's been calling my house constantly. Do you really not understand there are such things as stalking laws? I've asked you repeatedly to stay away from me. For once in your life be smart enough to know when you aren't wanted. "

I visited your blog when you ticked off a rather large group of romance writers and received about 2 minutes of internet infamy for doing so. I was one of perhaps a few hundred, at most, who did so.

I don't mind stating that, since a lot of us were discussing that particular post at other blogs, and because it's the truth. Hate to disappoint you, but I haven't been back to your blog since.

Why? You don't offer any quality content that I'm interested in, and that's the only reason I read anyone's blog.

However, you just gave a perfect example of your usual M.O. (that's modus operandi, in case you weren't aware).

When someone refuses to fall into line with Punchy's opinions, he will:

C) just out to get as much attention as you can, no matter what you have to make up, or whether the attention is positive or negative

D) in the throes of some serious brain chemistry troubles that make you act like a nut.

Also, you just totally proved the last line of my previous post. Thanks!

ETA: And whichever it is (I'm voting for C, personally), I'm disengaging from conversing with the unstable individual. I'd advise others to do the same. Not because anyone but a few die-hard acolytes of his would believe the accusations he makes, but because...well, crazy. You know?

"Hitch is quite intelligent and articulate, so constantly insulting either only shows the possible lack of both qualities in yourself."

She can be moderately intelligent and articulate when she stays within her limited sphere of knowledge. However, constantly insulting me and lying about things I've not said only shows the possible lack of both qualities in herself and yourself. See how that works liar.

"And what is it with you accusing people of lying about you?"

Well kiddo, your mommy should have taught you that when you tell lies people will call you a liar--liar.

"No one needs to lie about you."

Well then you might want to think about stopping it. Both of you. Consummate lying is a sign of insanity.

"I visited your blog when you ticked off a rather large group of romance writers"

For which I'm still awating an award from my local MENSA chapter.

"2 minutes of internet infamy for doing so."

For which I received about three days of harassment from the ugly end of the peanut gallery. No man worth having wants a dufus hanging around who's actually dumb enough to read, write, or publish romance crap. Get used to your lonely life or wise-up.

"You don't offer any quality content that I'm interested in"

Sorry, I'm all out of Little Women anecdotes, and I don't write comic books.

"When someone refuses to fall into line with Punchy's opinions, he will:

"1. ATTACK THEM. "

Example please? Lying again. That would be your M. O. I answered the OP first, and I answered him/her correctly. It was YOU and BHITCH that came along and attacked me! Liar!

"2. LIE ABOUT THEM."

Liar! Show me one lie I've told. There are none.

"3. ACCUSE THEM OF OH SO TERRIBLE THINGS."

Tis what happens when you do terrible things like going around to every dufus romance crap blog your could find and leave links to my article (an article that was very well received by all my friends, but then I don't have nitwits for friends) asking people to come and attack me for three days straight. Do you really have so little of a life that chasing me around and constantly harassing me is all you have to do with your time? I think your mental. I would bet anything you have an arrest record and a history of stalking others too.

"Hitch is quite intelligent and articulate, so
constantly insulting either only shows the possible
lack of both qualities in yourself."

She can be moderately intelligent and articulate when
she stays within her limited sphere of knowledge.
However, constantly insulting me and lying about
things I've not said only shows the possible lack of
both qualities in herself and yourself. See how that
works liar.

"And what is it with you accusing people of lying
about you?"

Well kiddo, your mommy should have taught you that
when you tell lies people will call you a
liar--liar.

"No one needs to lie about you."

Well then you might want to think about stopping it.
Both of you. Consummate lying is a sign of insanity.

I don't even understand what it is you are so vitriolic about. This was a perfectly SIMPLE discussion about how to indicate scenebreaks; first you adamantly informed the OP that "[f]irst of all, a scene break should be a new chapter," and went on to advise "how" a scene break should be styled, which, by the way: wasn't quite right.

Then you attacked not one, but two posters, simply because they disagreed with you, declaring that one was full of "bulls**t" because you couldn't find a reference to scene breaks in the CMS, claiming that s/he had seen scene breaks in "very few" books.

When I pointed out that merely by picking up 7 different books from various bestsellers, spread out over the course of a century, I could amply demonstrate the FACT (not opinion--FACT) that scenebreaks are used [i]routinely[/i] in publishing of all types, you instantly attacked ME, now asserting that I "didn't know what a scene was." When I replied by listing at least 7 books, ranging from Dorothy L. Sayers to Dan Brown, that use scenebreaks, you instantly deflected, now turning it into an attack on whether a) I have good taste in reading material or b) whether Dan Brown is a good writer. (Actually, dear boy: I'd highly recommend you read Annie Lamott's section on [i]Jealousy[/i] in Bird by Bird; I think you might need it, based upon your Papal Bulls on Brown, Francis, et al.). You know NOTHING whatsoever about me--a mistake you've made time after time, and, I can presume, will continue to make, since you don't seem capable of learning from your errors.

My point was simple: big publishing, little publishing, and best-selling authors for over a century have used scenebreaks. Your point is--[i]what[/i] was it, again? That you know [i]better[/i] than everyone else, including Dorothy L. Sayers, Random House, Simon & Shuster and Dan Brown, amongst others, right? [u]What IS your authority for your proclamation about scene breaks being chapters[/u]? Years of working at Random House? Being a best-selling author? A Lit. Professor? ANYTHING at all besides your own opinion, bolstered by, as you said, your "6th grade English" class?

Your levels of spite, ad hominem attacks and vitriol are completely disproportionate to the discussion at hand, just as they always are, the moment someone disputes something you've said. Just like DD, your "go to" defensive "debate" mechanism is to deflect and attack anyone who disagrees with you, just like a 13-y.o. boy. Now you're accusing another poster of "stalking you," when it is YOU--someone who has absolutely NOTHING to offer this forum [i]whatsoever[/i]--who has posted here [u]over 700 times in a mere few months[/u], adding nothing at all to the conversation but venomous vapidity. Who's stalking WHOM? I don't think anyone HERE is running over to your "blog," wherever that is, and posting THERE. "Stalked?" Sheesh. Talk about deluded....

You're just another petty demagogue who decided to be a forum tyrant, trying to shout down anyone who points out when you're wrong. It's certainly not the fault of the other people here that you are wrong SO often; it's your own blowharding that gets you into these constant fracas. [i]Why[/i] you feel the need to try to lord your absolute DEARTH of actual knowledge over the other people here, 95% of whom are simply trying to publish their OWN books, I don't know. All you had to do to avoid this absurd amount of mortification to yourself was pick up more than ONE book in your house and look at it before you pontificated on the correctness of chapter breaks in lieu of scenebreaks.

I wouldn't talk about "insanity" if I were you. Nobody, unfortunately, needs to lie about you--all your posts are here for everyone to see and read with their own two eyes.

If I may offer a requested reference without getting ambushed, Chicago Manual of Style 1.79 (page 26 of 15th Edition) states:

"[i]Other ways to break text.[/i] Where a break stronger than a paragraph but not as strong as a subhead is required, a set of asterisks or a type ornament, or simply a blank line, may be inserted between paragraphs. Using a blank line has the disadvantage that it may be missed if the break falls at the bottom of a page."

CMOS doesn't give separate instruction for fiction. Since fiction doesn't typically use subheads, I think we're justified in substituting "chapter" as the next higher break level.

Also, CMOS doesn't separately mention the case of e-publishing, but using extra blank lines definitely has drawbacks in Kindle formatting.

"first you adamantly informed the OP that "[f]irst of all, a scene break should be a new chapter,""

No, I said WITH EXCEPTIONS and proceeded to name one type of exception. Of course you keep ignoring this fact. Nine times out of ten when someone in any of these dopey forums says something about a scene break they should be starting a new chapter instead. I just gave you a link to a thread where 90% of the people posting thought you should start a new chapter based on how many words they had written!, and I had to point out that chapters are new scenes like in a movie and have nothing to do with how many words there are. I OBVIOUSLY was trying to point out the OP here that scene breaks should be very, very, very rare, and that generally a chapter break is what he should be using. But leave it to you to come pushing your way in like a bull butch in a glass menagerie screaming stupidity to try and puff up you pride. What are you, ten years old?

"and went on to advise "how" a scene break should be styled, which, by the way: wasn't quite right."

It was exactly right: "You do that with three periods centered and in bold. I have seen books that used asterisks as well."

"Then you attacked not one, but two posters, simply because they disagreed with you"

LIAR! Two bull butches attacked me, and there's no sense in denying this because we've all seen you do it time after time in this forum just like you went after that kid a couple of weeks ago for advertising his/her services while you were doing the exact same thing, and yet, you couldn't manage to see how you were doing anything wrong. Well, you're the only one who couldn't. It was as wrong as summer snow, and you know it was. You simply lied about it. Adding a link to your formatting services is advertising and against the rules here EVERY BIT as much as starting a thread about your services. Wrong is wrong. Too bad your worthless parents didn't teach you that.

"declaring that one was full of "bulls**t" because you couldn't find a reference to scene breaks in the CMS, claiming that s/he had seen scene breaks in "very few" books. ... When I pointed out that merely by picking up 7 different books from various bestsellers, spread out over the course of a century, I could amply demonstrate the FACT (not opinion--FACT) that scenebreaks are used routinely in publishing of all types"

First of all, at least learn to spell scene break. Secondly, let's play the same game at my house:

Out of eight books I picked up, only the last one had a single scene break in it, and I think even Clarke would admit that, while his stories were pretty good, he was only a marginal wordsmith. Good writers simply do not make use of scene breaks except for rare occasions.

"all your posts are here for everyone to see and read with their own two eyes."

Something you might want to think about yourself, because if I was looking for someone to format a book for me, I would avoid the hell out of you after seeing the way you mistreat people. As to the rest of your childish tripe: