Many thought including myself that a OLB would be drafted with one of our first pics. With the departure of Leroy what is the plans. I liked what I saw of smith last year. Korey Toomer? Or can Avril/ Bruce combo in a different sheme be on the field for most downs? I still believe there is a clear hole in our will linebacker. Am I missing something

Possibly a switch to more 4-2-5 defensive schemes, especially with the signing of Winfield and Pete's statement he'll see a large amount of snaps, and the fact that Kam Chancellor is about as good of a SS/LB hybrid candidate as you can hope for.

An over abundance of LEO types in Clemons, Irvin and Avril that could see partial time at SAM LB.

Pete's confidence in Smith, Toomer and Wright to make up for the loss of Hill.

Pick your poison, quite possibly a combination of some or all these points.

Already been discussed a lot, but I agree with those that think you'll see a lot of 4-2-5 this season. Winfield basically tackles like a linebacker anyway. Pete has also been saying throughout the draft pressers that they're going to use schemes that utilize Avril and Irvin at the linebacker position (likely at SAM with KJ sliding over to WILL). He made reference to some of the schemes he ran at USC with Clay Matthews and Brian Cushing.

Ultimately, I don't think the WILL position is as important as you, and many others, might think it is. I also think they feel pretty good about who they have competing for the spot now and the potential FAs they might be able to bring in later.

WLB is by far the easiest position to fill on our defense with low resource talent and it isn't a position that is worth a high draft pick or a large contract. Guys just need to be fast and tackle. Similar with MLB.

We made such a mistake years ago by putting a ton of money into that position at the expense of other positions.

I would say Smith is in the driver seat at this point but in the post draft presser, P/J mentioned that they were able to scoop up a couple UDFA LBs that were considered draftable - I expect one of these guys to make the roster as ST/OLB.

If Smith is healthy, I think he'll be pretty good. He's flashed some good ability.

My biggest concern is depth. Not sure what we have in Toomer, it doesn't seem like we have a ton of depth here. But, then again, with Winfield and the general move towards 3+ WR sets, we probably aren't going to get bit here.

Sarlacc, on comparing .NET to Soccer: And why not? It's a bunch of people running around in circles, feigning pain, and never scoring.

Can't be disappointed since the WLB/Leo positions have Clemons, Avril, Irvin, Smith, Powell, Toomer, Morgan, Boatwright, and Buchanan. Plenty of competition. Likely only five of them make the roster. The Leo position will also be the one of the two that will be manned on almost all defensive downs.

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In Pete's press conference, he said that they love the speed in their line backing crew and Wagner and wright are the leaders there at MIKE and SAM. He said all the guys at LEO (Clemons, avril, Irvin, Powell) will play a little SAM but not enough that people really notice, and he also said that they have always done that with the LEO playing SAM, so don't expect any of the LEOs playing a lot at SAM. He said there will be a competition for the WILL position, but he said there is a competition at every position. He said Malcolm Smith has the first shot to start there

Leroy Hill had lost nearly 10% of his speed by the end of last year. I watched him "grabbing air" several times as runners ran right by him. I think that Pete will "discover" in camp/Preseason someone who can outshine Leroy.

This is definitely going to be interesting. It seems pretty obvious they have a plan and not one that requires a dominant Will. Maybe they are planning for playing with healthy leads that reduce most running games or maybe they have a plan that rotates guys through the Will and Sam.

I think those pointing out the lack of importance of the Will are probably right on and we likely have the personnel needed when called upon.

Definitely interesting though and will make for some interesting reviews from OTA's and camps as to how they handle it.

Avril seems to be the piece that plays some "pass rushing" LB with Smith locked into pass defending LB. They must really like Smith and the other LBs on the roster. Smith was faster than pretty much any LB available to us, his injury history is troublesome though.

Could anyone explain the roles of the different LB's in terms of our scheme? I understand the concepts we use in the secondary and up front but not the lbs, for instance why is KJ's Sam position more important then the Will?

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HawksSoc wrote:Could anyone explain the roles of the different LB's in terms of our scheme? I understand the concepts we use in the secondary and up front but not the lbs, for instance why is KJ's Sam position more important then the Will?

The SAM is "usually" more likely to have a role in covering the TE on passing downs.

Hill explained in an interview that Pete's defense puts a lot more emphasis on the front 4 and DBs to make plays instead of a standard 4-3 that relies more heavily on LBs to make plays. Thanks to some unique personell like Red who can suck up a double team, KJ who was considered more a 3-4 LB, our large corners, and ET playing lights out single high safety.

HawksSoc wrote:Could anyone explain the roles of the different LB's in terms of our scheme? I understand the concepts we use in the secondary and up front but not the lbs, for instance why is KJ's Sam position more important then the Will?

That's the description that describes what we see on the field the best IMO.

We are a 4-3 defense that uses 3-4 personnel. So if you think of it like a 3-4 but both outside LBs (the Leo and sam) are essentially on the LOS all the time. The will plays more like a mike in a 3-4. Needs the range to cover lots of ground and make a lot of tackles.

I don't see KJ not being the sam very often. He is extraordinary at it. IMO he is our third best defender and seems to get very little recognition for it. He may not be flashy but he fills a role that makes the whole defense go.

*EDIT*

Don't expect our base defense to change at all really. We may see some cool new packages (like the bandit in Carroll's first year) but he won't change his base defense, he's ran it his entire coaching career. We also tend to run our base defense a lot. I could even see us putting Winfield in as our will.

My adopt a rookie............... UDFA John Lotulelei 5'11" 233lbs OLB UNLV!!!!! his highlights will make you smile, he is a heat seeking missle who is more physical than he should be....... I can't wait to watch this guy play the will this preseason.... you heard it here first.....

4.84 40 yada yada his 20 yard split is top of the food chain and came back in his pro day with a 4.65 40 but was one of the top performers at the combine in the verticle 35.5 " and 3 cone 6.91.... which is legit quicks. Team captain and was on the preseason Butkus award watch list finished senior year 121 tackles but only 1.5 for a loss 2 forced fumbles and 1 int.

sliv wrote:My adopt a rookie............... UDFA John Lotulelei 5'11" 233lbs OLB UNLV!!!!! his highlights will make you smile, he is a heat seeking missle who is more physical than he should be....... I can't wait to watch this guy play the will this preseason.... you heard it here first.....

4.84 40 yada yada his 20 yard split is top of the food chain and came back in his pro day with a 4.65 40 but was one of the top performers at the combine in the verticle 35.5 " and 3 cone 6.91.... which is legit quicks.

sliv wrote:My adopt a rookie............... UDFA John Lotulelei 5'11" 233lbs OLB UNLV!!!!! his highlights will make you smile, he is a heat seeking missle who is more physical than he should be....... I can't wait to watch this guy play the will this preseason.... you heard it here first.....

4.84 40 yada yada his 20 yard split is top of the food chain and came back in his pro day with a 4.65 40 but was one of the top performers at the combine in the verticle 35.5 " and 3 cone 6.91.... which is legit quicks.

Yah dude I was looking through our UDFA tape last night and played this video and just loved it and started trying to dig up what i could. There is not alot but I think whats special about him is like you said he closes fast, has sick agility, is really physical and really flies to the ball. I wonder if Bobby and Robert know him different schools but I think they would have played each other. Anyway lets see what top notch facilities and coaching can do with this kid, preseason watch list for sure....

sliv wrote:My adopt a rookie............... UDFA John Lotulelei 5'11" 233lbs OLB UNLV!!!!! his highlights will make you smile, he is a heat seeking missle who is more physical than he should be....... I can't wait to watch this guy play the will this preseason.... you heard it here first.....

4.84 40 yada yada his 20 yard split is top of the food chain and came back in his pro day with a 4.65 40 but was one of the top performers at the combine in the verticle 35.5 " and 3 cone 6.91.... which is legit quicks. Team captain and was on the preseason Butkus award watch list finished senior year 121 tackles but only 1.5 for a loss 2 forced fumbles and 1 int.

twisted_steel2 wrote:That dudes a monster. Amazing how many talented guys dont get drafted.

Hah just put my post in the adopt a rookie forum but yah man I think it is the 5'11" height and the initial 4.84 40 at the combine that must have been the biggest issues. His 20 yard dash is legit, so is the agility, verticle and broad jump. He may not have long speed but he did run the 4.65 forty at his pro day so thats good.

Does this maybe mean that the Hawks are probably also going to play enough nickel coverage/Avril at SAM and Wright at WILL that Malcolm Smith won't even see that many snaps in our base coverage anyway compared to what we thought they might?

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twisted_steel2 wrote:He reminds me of Lofa. Not a great 40 time, but super fast closer, violent hitter. Plays faster than his times. He's like Lofa with hair.

Lotulelei5'11'3233

Lofa5'11'7238

Whats crazy is Lotulelei ran a 4.84 at combine, looking at nfldraftscout.com where I'm pulling these numbers, Lofa ran a 4.83

I really don't know what to make of the 4.84 because every other test is solid to great. Even the first 20 yards of his 40 yard dash is legit. I mean was he at a top notch camp prior to the combine to learn 40 yard dash teq like all these other prospects but whatever he made up for it and ran a 4.65 at his pro day. Dude if he has Lofa's work ethic/film study habits and instincts its a wrap we have our Will because he has enough going for him athletically.

If "run fast and tackle the guy with the ball" is primarily the job of the WILL, it should be fairly seamless to put Irvin there. That's been his whole job on the field, except he was chasing down the quarterback. He, the guys we have, and the new draft prospects - I'm not worried.

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Smith would be fine starting this year. He hasn't developed like I had hoped, is a big step down from Hill, and would be our clear weak-point on the D, but he is still a boarderline stater with no huge liabilities with great talent around him.

I still hope we pick up a vet on the open market as a stop-gap, or that one of the rookies/2nd year guys pan out. But if not - Smith should be fine.

HawksSoc wrote:Could anyone explain the roles of the different LB's in terms of our scheme? I understand the concepts we use in the secondary and up front but not the lbs, for instance why is KJ's Sam position more important then the Will?

That's the description that describes what we see on the field the best IMO.

We are a 4-3 defense that uses 3-4 personnel. So if you think of it like a 3-4 but both outside LBs (the Leo and sam) are essentially on the LOS all the time. The will plays more like a mike in a 3-4. Needs the range to cover lots of ground and make a lot of tackles.

I don't see KJ not being the sam very often. He is extraordinary at it. IMO he is our third best defender and seems to get very little recognition for it. He may not be flashy but he fills a role that makes the whole defense go.

*EDIT*

Don't expect our base defense to change at all really. We may see some cool new packages (like the bandit in Carroll's first year) but he won't change his base defense, he's ran it his entire coaching career. We also tend to run our base defense a lot. I could even see us putting Winfield in as our will.

Ok I read that article thank you for the help So the terms Leo and Elephant are the same thing right?

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Mark Twain.

"Beast Mode is artist, puny Saints Defense merely his canvas!"

"When you die the only kingdom you'll see, will be two foot wide and six foot deep!"

Ok I read that article thank you for the help So the terms Leo and Elephant are the same thing right?

Yes, they are the same.

Seahawk Sailor wrote:If "run fast and tackle the guy with the ball" is primarily the job of the WILL, it should be fairly seamless to put Irvin there. That's been his whole job on the field, except he was chasing down the quarterback. He, the guys we have, and the new draft prospects - I'm not worried.

I don't know how well Irvin could cover and teams would quickly figure it out. But if he can cover, I'd rather him play will than KJ. But I completely agree about having the guys here, we got nothing to worry about.

I think Smith is going to be a good enough option at WILL. I think he was more effective than Hill at times last year, and he probably won't be getting many snaps, anyway. I've read that Avril and Irvin will see a lot of time at LB, especially when Clemons is back. Can you imagine passing downs with Clem, Avril, Irvin, and Bennett all on the field at the same time?

I also think with the way the league is going Winfield will be on the field a lot in the nickel. This was one position I was hoping we would address in the draft considering his age. I know that Simon didn't play much inside at college, but has anyone read anything about how he might project as a nickel corner? The only CB on our roster that seems like a fit to play nickel is Thurmond, but his health is a concern of course.

CodeWarrior wrote:Has there been any word considering Korey Toomer? We've all heard the story before: great physical tools, raw, needs to be coached up. Anyone know how that progression is going?

Before I get the sass, yes I did a search and no I didn't find anything of note.

Can't find anything in writing, but I did hear some talk about him on the radio (I think it was Danny O'Neil or some other insider on 710) Basically they said that Toomer was definitely in their plans, had made a lot of progress and gotten positive reviews from the coaches.

Personally, I'm not worried about WLB. Between Smith & Toomer I think we'll be fine. And even if one of those guys is technically the "starter", I don't think they'll see many snaps. IMO, our "base" D will be a lot of 4-2-5 with KJ & Wagner as the LB's and Winfield playing Nickel. Or we'll see something that "looks" like a 5-2-4 - Base secondary, KJ & Wagner at LB, 3 DL's .... and Avril & Irvin on the field at the same time as dual "LEO" (or "SAM" or "DE" or whatever you want to call them) - with both of them showing rush, switching sides and occasionally dropping back into space (ala a zone-blitzing DE or 3-4 OLB) depending on how the offense reacts.

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Allen Bradford like some of you have probably mentioned is also a candidate but when I listened to Pete's interview today on Espn and dug up some information about him, I realized he's more interesting as a prospect than I ever realized.

So basically this kid was one of the nations top prospects at LB, a hard hitter running a 4.5 forty with great instincts for defense but he was also a hammer of a RB and Pete wanted/needed a smashed mouth RB more than he needed another LB, Allen wanted to play defense but was a team player.

I checked out all three college football recruiting sites that i go to for information and they all have him as a 5 star recruit, Espn, Rivals and Scout.com. They all loved him more as a LB, Espn had him ranked as the 3rd OLB in the nation 26th best prospect overall, Rivals had him ranked 1st OLB in the country and 9th overall best prospect and Scout.com had him ranked the 4th best LB.

5'11" 242lb ----4.58 combine 40 yard dash and 6.97 cone drill

I will post what they said about him on Espn if it's cool its behind the paywall so let me know but this is what they said about him on free scout.com........

One of the best linebacker prospects in Southern California in some time. Has excellent quickness and can hit with the best of them.

Biography: Final JR (9-1) stats: 129 tackles and eight sacks, four fumbles caused, six fumbles recovered and one interception; 1297 yds rushing and 15 TDs; 25 receptions for 275 yds and three TDsAs a junior, he was named all-CIF on both sides of the ball and was named to the all-state underclass team. As a sophomore, he also started on both sides of the ball and was named all-CIF and all-state underclass.

Partial senior stats: Bradford reports 1,030 rushing yards for 16 touchdowns and 15 catches for 315 yards and three touchdowns. He also has 90 tackles and nine sacks. Colton (6-1) travels to Rialto on Oct. 28.

Bradford reports a 2.6 GPA/Oct SAT retake.

Bradford: "I play with passion and heart, and I'm a vocal leader. I'm always the guy talking in the tunnel before the game or in the weight room. I like to get everybody ready to play. I lead by example. I just want to relax a bit more and hit harder on the field as a senior. I want to do everything better than I did last year.

"A lot of schools have told me I'm their No. 1 linebacker. They like my hitting ability, my aggressiveness and my vision on the field. But I have good character off the field too."

Colton head coach Harold Strauss says of Bradford, "Allen is just one of those kids who is special. He's just a man out there on the football field and he's a great person off the field. He's been a four year starter for us on defense and I can't remember another four year starter in the 26 years that I've been associated with the school. I would describe Allen as a hitter. He hits you on both sides of the ball. He's explosive on defense but on offense he will just run right through you. On defense, he's fast enough to play safety but big enough to be an outside linebacker. He was timed at 4.57 last year in the 40 and we've clocked him here at 4.50 so he's got the speed. He also plays with a lot of intensity, he's got no problem speaking up at a key time or asking for the ball in a big situation. SPECIAL RECOGNITION

I bet it will be Smith or Toomer, and Smith's to lose. Smith played well last season, and Toomer has all the tools, but needed more coaching. We will see how far along they have come... I'm not worried about it at all.

Yeah he lacks experience but he's entering year 3 as a Pro: If he can bulk up to at least 230-235, continue to develop his overall instincts at the position, he has the tremendous athleticism to be a promising WLB. His ceiling could be a poorman's Lavonte David.

Damn, I'm torn between Lotulelei, Toomer, and Wilkins. Wilkins cause he's a beast, Toomer cause he could be a beast and is a Vandal, and Lotulelei because he'd be the first long-hair, non-dread Seahawk on a team that's sorely lacking one. As a charter member of the long hair, don't care crew I'd be down with John Lotulelei.

Wilkens looks more like a SAM - closer to the LOS, pressing the edge - which isn't a bad thing because there isn't any proven depth behind Wright.

I think we're going to see a lot more interchangeable roles this year. Pete's alluded to it, but Wright will shift over to some WLB, Avril and Irvin will get some opportunities at SAM, and the LEO might be rotated more than we've seen in the past. It has me excited because I feel like this year we have more legitimate playmakers for Pete and Quinn to move around and create havoc for opposing offenses. Just last year when Clemons got injured we were down one edge pass rusher and he was a rookie. Now we'll be fighting to get them all on the field at the same time.