Post by fixit on Nov 20, 2016 13:12:27 GMT -5

Rational argues for the sake of arguing. If someone says something is black he will say it is white just for the sake of arguing or trying to appear intelligent.

If someone says it's raining he will say it's snowing because it was snowing an hour ago. If someone is trapped in an abusive situation he seems to think it is their fault for staying. He doesn't have any understanding or empathy for victims. To him the world is black and white when in fact a lot of life is grey. Hindsight is a great thing. Emotions are a fact of life and part of who we are.

You speak like everything Rational says is correct and statements that others say are wrong if Rational starts dissecting their posts of which he does for nearly everyones post, matt10. Rational is wrong on lots of fronts. We are not unemotional robots. Do others find it necessary to communicate like rational does? It is not communicating.

Most pedophiles are sent to jail and not psychiatric hospitals. They are criminals not mentally ill. They are not helped with medication like the mentally ill any more than the general population.

Is rational and matt 10 one and the same person? Ummmmmm! What is the likelihood of that possibility? Unlikely but who knows for certain?

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by ellie on Nov 20, 2016 20:38:02 GMT -5

I agree with matt10. rational is one of the posters who I learn things from.

In any case when I post silly things or make errors I consider it a privilege and an opportunity to learn if someone takes the time to correct them in a constructive manner as Rational does. People don't tend to do that so much, I've found, as I've gotten older.

In that vein Rational’s posts as far as I can tell help rein in some of the more erroneous posting and I think that is a good thing to have on a public message board.

Right now I’m wondering if I misremembered some context and posted something as a fact incorrectly. That’s a good thing.

Post by rational on Nov 20, 2016 22:53:30 GMT -5

You'll probably get your answer when you do some research on the behaviors of abused people.

I got many of the answers while actually working with the victims of sexual abuse. If you want to help the victims who are suffering from the lingering effects of their experiences the patterns of their lives have to change. If they continue to operate in the same way they can usually expect the same results.

This directly opposes the views of the legal systems in most countries and the international medical community.People who abuse children are the criminals. They may or may not be mentally ill. People who are attracted exclusively to prepubescent children are suffering from pedophilia. The disorder is not a crime. They may or may not be criminals.

They are not helped with medication like the mentally ill any more than the general population.

Are you stating that if a condition cannot be helped by medication then the person suffering can not be considered mentally ill?

As I stated before, labeling a criminal as a pedophile can provide a way for the criminal to plead mental illness and attempt to seek a reduction in punishment. It would be better to focus on the crime and leave the medical diagnosis out of the equation unless it is brought up.

Imagine if it was decided that all people with schizophrenia who display psychotic symptoms like hallucinations, delusions, and disordered thinking were classified as criminals simply because some people with schizophrenia commit crimes.

Post by enuf on Nov 21, 2016 3:12:38 GMT -5

Sexual abuse against children is a crime. To label it a mental illness is to give them an excuse. You seem to be agreeing with that. As I said most pedophiles are not mentally ill. However schizophrenia is a mental illness.

Rational, I would doubt if you have ever been a counsellor working with abused victims or survivors of sexual abuse. In reference to your earlier post, can I tell you that part of counselling is to normalize their responses and symptoms. I don't see this in your posts.

Showing compassion for the abused is important and empathy is an important trait for any counsellor. You would do well to read material from John Briere and similar researchers and specialists in the field of trauma and abuse. Van der kolk is also good. Healing for the abused is not fixed in 5 minutes. PTSD is real.

Identifying and changing unhealthy patterns is something we all need to work on in our lives. For survivors as for many people there is ground work and healing to be done before they are strong enough to maintain these changes.

You dont tell someone with a broken leg to get up and walk before the ground work is done.

Post by matt10 on Nov 21, 2016 16:06:25 GMT -5

Rational argues for the sake of arguing. If someone says something is black he will say it is white just for the sake of arguing or trying to appear intelligent.

If someone says it's raining he will say it's snowing because it was snowing an hour ago. He takes the opposite for the sake of it. If someone is trapped in an abusive situation he seems to think it is their fault for staying. He doesn't have any understanding or empathy for victims. To him the world is black and white when in fact a lot of life is grey. Hindsight is a great thing. Emotions are a fact of life and part of who we are.

You speak like everything Rational says is correct and statements that others say are wrong if Rational starts dissecting their posts of which he does for nearly everyones post, matt10. Rational is wrong on lots of fronts. We are not unemotional robots. Do others find it necessary to communicate like rational does? It is not communicating. What you are saying Matt10 is the way Rational communicates is fine. To you it is but to others it is annoying and people are allowed to have an opinion on it. There is nothing wrong with what Rational says, it is how he communicates it.

There is often no right or wrong answers but just opinions. We wouldn't have voting if there was not. Peoples thoughts and opinions are valid. To some God is real and proof is in nature to others like Rational it is not but it does not mean he is right and others are wrong. It means human beliefs and opinions are varied.

Most pedophiles are sent to jail and not psychiatric hospitals. They are criminals not mentally ill. They are not helped with medication like the mentally ill any more than the general population.

I don't think it's fair (or indeed correct) to say that I speak "like everything Rational says is correct". Indeed I specifically made a point of stating that he isn't always correct. I do wonder if people sometimes have a tendency to read into things what they they want to read rather than what is actually written. As to the way he communicates, I have to say that I have had no difficulty in the way he has communicated with me, even when challenging me on things I have written. He certainly always played the ball rather than the man which isn't always the case on the TMB. I should point out that if anyone has a problem with how any particular individual communicates with them on the TMB, they always have the option of not communicating with them. This is an approach which I adopt here frequently and it seems to work for me. Matt10

Post by enuf on Nov 21, 2016 22:58:15 GMT -5

It's hard writing on a phone. I am well aware of how to spell schizophrenia. Maybe my phone changed it as it does have a mind of its own and changes words. I should have read my post after posting. Thanks for pointing it out. I will change it just for you.

I don't intend to disclose my profession. I am far more qualified than a counsellor. I do assess counsellors clients for mental illness though as counsellors are not qualified to do. DSM, ICD10, PCL5 and TSI are my preferred trauma assessment tools not just DSM.

Post by rational on Nov 22, 2016 0:17:23 GMT -5

Sexual abuse against children is a crime. To label it a mental illness is to give them an excuse.

I will try one more time. Pedophilia is a mental illness. Being a pedophile does not mean you are a criminal. If you sexually abuse post-pubescent minors you are probably not a pedophile. Continuing to label everyone who abuses minors as a pedophile does exactly as you suggest - could potentially provide them with a way to get a reduced sentence.

You seem to be agreeing with that.

Yes, I do.

As I said most pedophiles are not mentally ill.

The International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) defines it as a psychiatric disorder.

However schophrenia is a mental illness.

The International Statistical Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) defines schizophrenia as a psychiatric disorder. If you consider someone with schizophrenia as mentally ill and given that they are both considered psychiatric disorders I would say that you would also have to consider every pedophile is mentally ill.

Rational, I would doubt if you have ever been a counsellor working with abused victims or survivors of sexual abuse. In reference to your earlier post, can I tell you that part of counselling is to normalize their responses and symptoms. I don't see this in your posts.

You are, of course, free to believe what you wish. I can only say that I spent 5+ years working with abused minors in a psychiatric institution.In reference to what you mentioned, it was concerning the abuse that the victims felt long after the event that they claimed was due to the unexpected non-christlike behavior of others.

In this case how would you normalize the bevavior normalizing the behavior of the abused would be to councel then

Showing compassion for the abused is important and empathy is an important trait for any counsellor. You would do well to read material from John Briere and similar researchers and specialists in the field of trauma and abuse. Van der kolk is also good. Healing for the abused is not fixed in 5 minutes. PTSD is real.

Identifying and changing unhealthy patterns is something we all need to work on in our lives. For survivors as for many people there is ground work and healing to be done before they are strong enough to maintain these changes.

I believe the 'abuse of the abused' we were discussing was, in most cases, something that was experienced more than a decade ago. Given that time span, finding and making use of the 'therapeutic window' can be accomplished with greater ease and with much more certainty than with a much shorter time frame. While there may still be some avoidance behavior there is a much higher chance that any interventions suggested can be internalized and used by the abused without causing reactivation of the original trauma which, of course, would result a setback and perhaps avoidance behavior.

And the intervention that I would suggest would be to remove the abused from the influence of those who are causing the re-abuse. But even more difficult than getting the abuser past the initial abuse is getting them to acknowledge the idea that their continued membership in their religious group may be damaging to their well being. In your environment this would most likely be concerned with acts of omission/psychological neglect and not acts of commission.

This is what I was referring to when I posted:

If you stay in the presence of someone who you feel is abusing you by not showing a christ-like spirit the question must be asked - "Why would you stay?"

You expected a certain behavior but when that expectation was not met why remain and suffer what you consider abuse?

Perhaps it would have been more recognizable had I referred to it as reorganizing internal working models.

You dont tell someone with a broken leg to get up and walk before the ground work is done.

The initial events (acts of commission) were decades ago. The discussion was regarding the abuse that the victims were suffering from in the present. The broken leg was mended and just needed exercise to fully heal.

Post by dmmichgood on Nov 22, 2016 0:28:14 GMT -5

It's hard writing on a phone. I am well aware of how to spell schizophrenia. Maybe my phone changed it as it does have a mind of its own and changes words. I should have read my post after posting. Thanks for pointing it out. I will change it just for you.

I don't intend to disclose my profession. I am far more qualified than a counsellor. I do assess counsellors clients for mental illness though as counsellors are not qualified to do. DSM, ICD10, PCL5 and TSI are my preferred trauma assessment tools not just DSM.

OK.

Guess we will just have to take your word for the position that you say you have attained.

I'm a retired RN, -registered nurse; -and I see no reason for me to not say so, -but if you don't want to disclose your position you certainly don't have to.

Most pedophiles are sent to jail and not psychiatric hospitals. They are criminals not mentally ill. They are not helped with medication like the mentally ill any more than the general population.

You state that you have 20+ years of post grad experience yet believe:

1) a person diagnosed as a pedophile does not suffer from a mental illness.2) mental illness is determined by its response to medication.3) no clear distinction between someone suffering from pedophilia and someone who has sexually abused a minor.

The statement 'Well qualified to use DSM.' and the above is causing cognitive dissonance!

Post by enuf on Nov 22, 2016 1:57:22 GMT -5

How many people who have sexually abused children do you know have been placed under psychiatric care and how many are jailed? As I said sexually abusing a child is a crime. Of course someone who is caught might display signs of depression, anxiety etc which is often the case when caught.

Treatment for pedophiles is a treatment programme not psychiatric help. I'm not repeating myself again, hopefully. You can twist it how you like. A high percentage of people with mental illness are on medication.

There's a big difference in roles working in a psych. Hospital which could be in an administrative role, nurse, psychiatrist, Psychologist, OT or any number of roles. Very few who work in psychiatric hospitals are trained to diagnose mental disorders.

Homosexuality was in DSM not so long ago. Most do not agree it is a mental illness, do you? DSM3 if I remember correctly.

Normalising is normalizing their response to the abuse. It is normal to feel, betrayed, angry, experience PTSD etc.

It is not the victim who should be removed from the home, church, work place, it is the offender who should be removed.

A pedophile does not have to be exclusively attracted to prepubescent children. They can be equally attracted to adults. DSM5 p.698

I'm not interested in debating with you any more. A few years working in a psychiatric hospital does not give someone a licence to anything just as working in a hospital does not make someone a doctor. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. This is obvious by your lack of compassion for victims.

Post by rational on Nov 22, 2016 10:37:47 GMT -5

How many people who have sexually abused children do you know have been placed under psychiatric care and how many are jailed? As I said sexually abusing a child is a crime. Of course someone who is caught might display signs of depression, anxiety etc which is often the case when caught.

Exactly. But the discussion was about people who were diagnosed as pedophiles. In those cases there is a tendency to use civil commitment rather than prison.

Treatment for pedophiles is a treatment programme not psychiatric help.

There is no treatment for pedophilia just as there is no treatment for homosexuality or for the broken heart of a love-sick teen. However, there are facilities that focus on working with people suffering with pedophilia. The institution I was working at had an in-house program with 7 or 8 beds that was filled all of the time. They were all non-offending pedophiles who were in an institution getting the help for the disorder from which they were suffering. You can say it was not psychiatric help but I have a feeling that the psychiatrists working with them would have a very different opinion.

I'm not repeating myself again, hopefully. You can twist it how you like. A high percentage of people with mental illness are on medication.

No, you are not repeating yourself. You are making a different statement. I would agree with this claim that a high percentage of people suffering with mental illness are on medication. The same would be true for people suffering from acute coryza.

There's a big difference in roles working in a psych. Hospital which could be in an administrative role, nurse, psychiatrist, Psychologist, OT or any number of roles. Very few who work in psychiatric hospitals are trained to diagnose mental disorders.

If you were to include the grounds keepers, the cooks, the maintenance people, janitors, security guards, etc. I would think that the number of people qualified to make any diagnosis would be a very small percentage. Generally they are the doctors and their training is in the field of psychiatric medicine.

Homosexuality was in DSM not so long ago. Most do not agree it is a mental illness, do you? DSM3 if I remember correctly.

I do not believe it is a psychiatric disorder.

There is no reason to believe that at some point pedophilia will also no longer be considered a psychiatric disorder. It is not a crime.

Normalising is normalizing their response to the abuse. It is normal to feel, betrayed, angry, experience PTSD etc.

It may be normal to experience these feelings but if they are having a negative effect on your quality of life it is not normal to remain in a situation where these 'assaults' have to be endured. Remember, the discussion was regarding the ongoing abuse the victim was suffering decades after the original abuse.

It is not the victim who should be removed from the home, church, work place, it is the offender who should be removed.

In an ideal world that would be great but in the real world if a person is suffering the slings and arrows, say at the hands of members of a religious group, it is doubtful that all of the members who are not considered to be showing a christ-like attitude can be asked to leave. The solution is to leave the group and seek another group that that is more supportive.

A pedophile does not have to be exclusively attracted to prepubescent children. They can be equally attracted to adults. DSM5 p.698

I don't think I ever mentioned exclusive attraction to prepubescent children. Since this is an international forum perhaps using ICD-10 would make more sense:

F65.4 - Paedophilia - A sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age.

Of course it is implied that this preference also leads the person suffering to be concerned or causes difficulty in their lives.

I'm not interested in debating with you any more. A few years working in a psychiatric hospital does not give someone a licence to anything just as working in a hospital does not make someone a doctor. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. This is obvious by your lack of compassion for victims.

On the other hand, conversing with someone on a message board does not provide insight into just what licenses and certifications they may hold.

When dealing with people it is sometimes beneficial to remove the emotional component and deal with the actual facts surrounding the case. For many who tend to coddle people this might be viewed as a lack of compassion.

Post by ellie on Nov 22, 2016 17:01:05 GMT -5

I agree with matt10 . rational is one of the posters who I learn things from.

In any case when I post silly things or make errors I consider it a privilege and an opportunity to learn if someone takes the time to correct them in a constructive manner as Rational does. People don't tend to do that so much, I've found, as I've gotten older.

In that vein Rational’s posts as far as I can tell help rein in some of the more erroneous posting and I think that is a good thing to have on a public message board.

Right now I’m wondering if I misremembered some context and posted something as a fact incorrectly. That’s a good thing.

I've learned plenty as well from Rat and others,

Yes. I've been learning a lot from @laverdad recently

however, I also know that there are plenty of areas where research/statistics can be easily cooked to produce whatever outcome a person wants to push or the old adage of "lies, damned lies, and statistics" applies...

Then, when the situation arises, present a case for why and how the statistics in question are wrong. Perhaps on a related thread.

Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 29, 2016 6:36:59 GMT -5

Can't scroll to bottom of page to quote and reply... new issue for me.

Anyway. Whiterabbit, do the ones in charge know how to contact the victims & families?

Will any workers be present in the courtroom?

HI with withlove regarding posting if on phone just hit Quote and you will be able to reply.I know some of the victims are known to the workers and not comforted maybe more neglected by the workersDo they want to know or choose not too

Shoutbox

wally: proboards can be a bit buggy...i still get virus warnings when clicking on thread links...Feb 26, 2020 22:04:28 GMT -5

ant_rotten: Does anyone else constantly have a pop up saying “do you want to download index.html” when using TMB desktop version? This happens to me both on my iPhone and iPad.. Feb 26, 2020 19:56:33 GMT -5

wally: you haven't asked me a question or anything or did i miss one?Feb 20, 2020 6:03:05 GMT -5