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As a side note, British Columbia has had the reputation as being THE most enlightened system in Canada.

I think it is just that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence :-)

No, that is not what it just is. We examined what various provinces were doing. there were specifics.

Quote:

If the argument comes down to the quality of test, it would be easy. However, it is not the point. Even the test is the perfect, the union still doesn't want it. The point is that it doesn't want anything that can be used to measure a teacher or a school.

First off, one does not "measure" a teacher or school through such tests. Secondly, the tests I saw were extremely poor.

#2042014 - 03/02/1307:43 PMRe: Insane Florida FCAT and what it does to students...
[Re: keystring]

currawong
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 6025
Loc: Down Under

Originally Posted By: keystring

Originally Posted By: The Monkeys

Even the test is the perfect, the union still doesn't want it. The point is that it doesn't want anything that can be used to measure a teacher or a school.

First off, one does not "measure" a teacher or school through such tests.

Unfortunately that's precisely what is happening here. It's a while since I've been in the public school system here in Australia, but I'd like to pick up on this point, because it's the one the teachers' unions here are emphasising in their campaign against the increasing use of standardised testing.

The main concerns of the teachers' unions where I am seem to be that tests are imposed by governments seeking to score cheap political points. They're trying to show they're doing something about education (something apart from actually providing adequate funding, that is...), and tapping into some fear that things aren't as good as they were in the good old days when we recited our tables and chanted our spelling lists. (In my "good old days" in the 1950s I was in a class of 50+ children, about a third of them recent post-war migrants from European countries, who had little or no English. I managed to swim, but I'm sure many others did sink.)

And governments here are using the results for their own ends, even though they've said they won't. We now have a website which lists the results from all the schools so that parents can take a superficial glance and decide which schools are "best", without taking into account any of the factors that influence these results. When schools get a bad reputation so do the students in them, which has an impact on their employment opportunities.

These results are also used to downplay the efforts of teachers, who are already doing so much with so little. No one is measuring how much some child from a disadvantaged background has improved due to the efforts of a skilled, experienced and dedicated teacher; they simply look at the raw score and decide the child is underachieving. Therefore we have to improve teaching standards. There's the implication that we need these tests because teachers have been slacking. As if teachers hadn't always used testing and evaluation to determine how to proceed with individuals in their classes!

And because so much (including funding) is riding on the results, schools are pressured to "teach to the test". It's pretty depressing for the teachers I know to be told how to teach by officals and politicians who for the most part have no clue, and think any little populist catch-cry is some wonderful educational breakthrough that they've just thought of and which will save their political future.

...All that testing really hasn't affected my piano studio, though, as these tests are usually REALLY easy for kids who take piano lessons. Even the worst piano student (the absolute worst student I've had in ten years) is deemed "proficient" by the standardized tests.

Is there even a remote possibility that your the students in your studio is not a representative random sampling of public school students across the state?

I think that's rather obvious. If the parents care enough that their kids take piano lessons, chances are the kids grew up in a nurturing family and thus won't fail standardized tests miserably.

As for the rest of the thread, I'm not comfortable doing away with testing altogether, because I've witnessed enough bad teaching and really, really bad teachers who aren't fired because the union stood in the way. One of the principals I worked for was rather progressive, and he actively scraped away the union's power (it also helped that the district's union was rather weak and lawyer-less).

The problem here in California is not the endless testing. It is really about the way districts are drawn up and the way (some) unions wield almost an unlimited amount of power to protect awful teachers. The more I think about it, the more depressing it gets.

That being said, I still champion the American public education system over some tracking gunk in Europe or the really, really endless testing in Asia. Some parts of Asia are trying to get rid of the endless testing.

There are people who were profoundly suspicious of all religion, outspoken atheiests, who later came to believe in one religion or another with great passion.

CS Lewis is one of them. There are others.

So for the record my mind stays open!

CS Lewis is perhaps not the best example. He was a lukewarm Christian who later became fervent. There are better examples, but they all share a common factor. They became religious after an emotional event rather than application of critical thinking. There are claims for the latter, but none of them stand up to examination. CS Lewis is part of my faith tradition - I'm Episcopal.

I do not think religion has hindered teaching critical thinking in general. Teaching critical thinking as its own entity rather than a routine part of science class, e.g., is a relatively new idea. The fundamentalist ends of most religions are suspicious and hostile to education in general, while the more moderate ends have ended up with excellent educational systems and preserved large bodies of knowledge through some dark ages.

Religion inherently requires suspension of critical thinking. It wouldn't be a religion if it didn't require belief in supernatural actions without evidence, it would just be a social club. Most people who value critical thinking but retain faith, like myself and religious scientists, simply compartmentalize. We suspend critical thinking at the door of the church, to the extent possible, and work to turn it back on after the last Amen.

If critical thinking were taught really well, it would be a threat to some powerful interests. Religion is but one, and probably not the most important one. Alternative medicine would disappear, and that's a multi-billion dollar industry. All sorts of scams would become more difficult. And politics? don't get me started! (sequester means I take one unpaid day off per week, a 20% cut in my salary. Not exactly easy with two kids in college.)

#2042072 - 03/02/1311:32 PMRe: Insane Florida FCAT and what it does to students...
[Re: TimR]

currawong
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 6025
Loc: Down Under

Originally Posted By: TimR

Originally Posted By: Gary D.

There are people who were profoundly suspicious of all religion, outspoken atheiests, who later came to believe in one religion or another with great passion.CS Lewis is one of them. There are others.

CS Lewis is perhaps not the best example. He was a lukewarm Christian who later became fervent.

I think CS Lewis would have called himself an atheist in the period before his conversion (and I think he calls it that in Surprised by Joy, doesn't he? Not 100% sure - it's a while since I read it) even though he'd grown up in the Church of England. Well, Church of Ireland actually.

As for the rest of the thread, I'm not comfortable doing away with testing altogether, because I've witnessed enough bad teaching and really, really bad teachers who aren't fired because the union stood in the way. One of the principals I worked for was rather progressive, and he actively scraped away the union's power (it also helped that the district's union was rather weak and lawyer-less).

The problem here in California is not the endless testing. It is really about the way districts are drawn up and the way (some) unions wield almost an unlimited amount of power to protect awful teachers. The more I think about it, the more depressing it gets.

Same here in BC, the only difference is that the teachers union here are very very strong, teachers in the public school system are well paid, and it is impossible to get rid of a rotten teacher, period.

In this province students takes 2 standardized testing in the first 9 years of school, and Fraser Institute, an independent think tank organization that interprets the result, does take average family income into the consideration. I really don't think testing at this frequency affects students learning. And I do think parents deserve some transparency.

As AZNpiano said, the testing is a double edged sword, it has it's problems, but it is still needed. Medicine has side effects, but it saves life.

In this province students takes 2 standardized testing in the first 9 years of school, and Fraser Institute, an independent think tank organization that interprets the result,....

And that is the problem. The sample tests that I saw were flawed and would not reflect much about reading ability. It does not give any information. Do the people in that institute have a background in education? Do you know? Actually I think I'll try to find out. I imagine that since it's your province, you have already tried to do so.

I see a header "A free and prosperous world through choice, markets, and responsibility". That gives me the impression that their interest is financial. In fact, they do research in a whole pile of fields. The person heading the educational research part has a degree in commerce.

I second wholeheartedly Keystring's opposition to standardized testing. In France, for many years there has been talk of introducing these kinds of things in the national grade school system, associated with the idea of measuring the profitability of teachers who are all, one might think, slackers. Fortunately it has been kept at bay, and here's to hoping that it will continue to be.

I think CS Lewis would have called himself an atheist in the period before his conversion (and I think he calls it that in Surprised by Joy, doesn't he? Not 100% sure - it's a while since I read it) even though he'd grown up in the Church of England. Well, Church of Ireland actually.

Yes, CS Lewis most definitely called himself an atheist before his conversion.

CS Lewis is perhaps not the best example. He was a lukewarm Christian who later became fervent.

No. That is not true. You have your facts wrong. I am an agnostic, and I have not been in a church for any reason in decades except for a service that took place after my father's death. I still remember the priest who talked about my father as if he knew him, when in fact he knew nothing about him. There is a huge wedge between my brother and me because he is a “true believer”, and I am not.

I am not an atheist. I simply am a person who “does not know”.

Quote:

Religion inherently requires suspension of critical thinking. It wouldn't be a religion if it didn't require belief in supernatural actions without evidence, it would just be a social club. Most people who value critical thinking but retain faith, like myself and religious scientists, simply compartmentalize. We suspend critical thinking at the door of the church, to the extent possible, and work to turn it back on after the last Amen.

Sounds like the worst of two worlds to me. Although I am not religious myself I do believe that there are people who are who can make eloquent arguments for what they believe in. “Suspending critical thinking at the door of the church” just sounds schizophrenic to me.

Quote:

And politics? don't get me started! (sequester means I take one unpaid day off per week, a 20% cut in my salary. Not exactly easy with two kids in college.)

Tim, I am truly sorry to hear this. Some have called this the “doomsday political machine”, and anyone who makes light of the consequences is lucky enough not to be directly affected by it.

Yesterday I read several of the texts (reading material) and the questions that students needed to answer. The first one was supposedly scientific, on animals and the environment. It was poorly written as a piece of writing. It was also poorly designed as a test. It is as if somebody was given a list of gr. 4 vocabulary, and strung them together into paragraphs. It was very hard to follow the train of thought of the writer, or the ideas the writer was trying to develop. That is because the writer was not developing anything. If a student of mine wrote such an article, I would tell that student to try again and put some planning into it.

The questions themselves did not reflect reading comprehension. The best way to answer them was to ditch the article, use common sense, and guess what kind of answer was probably wanted. It was possible for the child to draw a different conclusion, and choose a different answer which would have been marked "wrong" when that child might have perfectly understood the article.

My conclusion, as always: the inmates are running the asylum. Years ago, when I chose to become a teacher, I realized I could never exist in a system. I do not know of one that does not severely limit what a good teacher can or could do.

My conclusion, as always: the inmates are running the asylum. Years ago, when I chose to become a teacher, I realized I could never exist in a system. I do not know of one that does not severely limit what a good teacher can or could do.

This is exactly how I feel, Gary. There was a time when I wanted to teach at a college, but then realized that I'd have a boss and would not be able to do exactly what I felt was best for students due to political things. So the only option was to stay as a private teacher. I know that not all colleges are like that, but seriously, there is always some level of politics in each institution, so you have to choose which level you can deal with.

I also question if the arts should be treated academically to begin with when you're talking about training professionals. I find too much focus on things that you can grade and test and not enough focus on learning to perform. Just my opinion.

This is exactly how I feel, Gary. There was a time when I wanted to teach at a college, but then realized that I'd have a boss and would not be able to do exactly what I felt was best for students due to political things. So the only option was to stay as a private teacher. I know that not all colleges are like that, but seriously, there is always some level of politics in each institution, so you have to choose which level you can deal with.

Many years ago I was hired as a “fill-in” teacher at what then was a junior college. Apparently things were much busier in the fall, and they were short. So I got to teach some piano there for non piano majors, with the agreement that I would teach a music appreciation class.

I was HORRIBLE at it, the class. I asked for feedback, and the students said that I was inconsistent, which I felt. Something about dealing with many people at the same time bothered me, and teaching this course gave me flashbacks to required basic studies I had to take at FSU, classes I LOATHED. I dropped out of school, by the way, after having covered all my music studies and having completed all but this basic studies crap. I knew that the only reason for my being in those classes was to pay some other teacher, help pad the class, and I was a prisoner in those classes.

I did finally complete the few basic studies courses I needed, got my degree, than RAN from anything to do with colleges for about 20 years. In a way I guess I “sold out” by trying to do that college teaching. But it left such a horrible taste in my mouth, if you know what I mean. I felt as if I had joined “the enemy”.

Quote:

I also question if the arts should be treated academically to begin with when you're talking about training professionals. I find too much focus on things that you can grade and test and not enough focus on learning to perform. Just my opinion.

There are some tough questions linked to those thoughts. I have never needed a degree in all the time I have been teaching other than that one failed gig at the junior college. I HAVE one, but I have never had to show it. I have heard teacher after teaching talk about administrators meddling with their teaching, with only a few here and there managing to sort of “establish” turf and buck the system, so to speak.

So like you I am happy that I chose to go it alone. I also have zero connections with other teachers in this area. I would be more likely to talk with someone local in a forum like this than through any other means. I'm a lone wolf by temperament, I suppose.

I think CS Lewis would have called himself an atheist in the period before his conversion (and I think he calls it that in Surprised by Joy, doesn't he? Not 100% sure - it's a while since I read it) even though he'd grown up in the Church of England. Well, Church of Ireland actually.

Yes, CS Lewis most definitely called himself an atheist before his conversion.

Before his conversion, CS Lewis was an Anglican who professed to be a believer. He did not call himself an atheist, before conversion. So you're wrong.

After his conversion, CS Lewis believed that his prior state of belief had been atheistic. He then called himself an atheist before conversion, but only after conversion. So you're right.

My reading of what he said convinced me he went from lukewarm belief to fervent belief.

One thing is clear: he was never a professed atheist.

Conversions do happen, in both directions.

The majority are from believer to atheist, and are based on some level of critical thinking. Exposure to science class in college seems to do a fair job by about Thanksgiving break for a large number of students. Different religions and denominations within such are affected differently.

The minority are from atheist to believer, and are based on an emotional event.

Doing so by test scores seems inherently flawed, because then their performance depends on factors beyond their control, and because it causes them to teach to the test. And while all classes teach to the test to some extent, if the test is related to the material, these particular tests seem to have flaws.

1. The standardized testing itself is OK, but the quality of the test in BC is the problem, so is the institute interprets the result.

2. Standardized testing in any form at any frequency in the public school system is bad.

Cheers

Originally Posted By: keystring

Originally Posted By: The Monkeys

In this province students takes 2 standardized testing in the first 9 years of school, and Fraser Institute, an independent think tank organization that interprets the result,....

And that is the problem. The sample tests that I saw were flawed and would not reflect much about reading ability. It does not give any information. Do the people in that institute have a background in education? Do you know? Actually I think I'll try to find out. I imagine that since it's your province, you have already tried to do so.

I see a header "A free and prosperous world through choice, markets, and responsibility". That gives me the impression that their interest is financial. In fact, they do research in a whole pile of fields. The person heading the educational research part has a degree in commerce.

Doing so by test scores seems inherently flawed, because then their performance depends on factors beyond their control, and because it causes them to teach to the test. And while all classes teach to the test to some extent, if the test is related to the material, these particular tests seem to have flaws.

How would you evaluate teachers?

How about how it was always done? When I was teaching, the principal came to observe classes and look at paperwork. The superintendent of schools came in to look at my work. He observed classes, looked at what students were doing and at their results. I remember him asking me for a "matrix" which was a new concept I had not been told of in teacher's college. I loved the idea and adopted it from then on. A matrix is where you create a chart for the year where you show what you plan to teach when for all the subjects. You include "integration", meaning the overlap between subjects. For example, if you teach science, something you are teaching in math. can be applied, and reading/writing skills can be applied.

The idea that a commercial body should oversee such things seems absurd.

Since you have already taken side, it is pointless to discuss the quality of the test and the interpretation of the result, since you will only see the flaws.

I did not start with an opinion. I started by looking at the tests. I have also given information - several times - and I don't think you are considering any of it. If so, then discussing it further doesn't seem worthwhile. Besides, the main topic is supposed to be what is going on in Florida.

The idea that a commercial body should oversee such things seems absurd.

The idea that commercial bodies should be allowed to control the banking system and crash the world economy, extracting billions in profits and tax dollars for themselves, or the provision of health care or social health insurance and profiting obscenely by keep millions of of people uninsured and sick and/or underinsured and dying, or having private mercenary corporations receiving tens of billions of dollars to commit war crimes abroad, etc. etc. all seem to me to be infinitely more absurd.

Since you have already taken side, it is pointless to discuss the quality of the test and the interpretation of the result, since you will only see the flaws.

I did not start with an opinion. I started by looking at the tests. I have also given information - several times - and I don't think you are considering any of it. If so, then discussing it further doesn't seem worthwhile. Besides, the main topic is supposed to be what is going on in Florida.

I was genuinely impressed that you took time to look into the FSA test samples and investigated Fraser Institute, I do appreciate your opinions. Yes, you provided opinion to the FSA test samples and some information of Fraser Institute. And I probably used wrong words in my post, English is not my first language after all, so I not sensitive to the tone.

But apparently the issue is not the quality or frequency of the test, nor the interpretation of the result. It is the standardized test itself you are opposing to. And you are not alone, many people in this forum shares your view.

If any form of the standardized would change your mind, I would have plenty to talk about. But it is not the case, so I didn't feel it would be useful to talk about it, it is a different argument.

Teachers, parents, students and government all see things from different angles, I don't think any party holds the whole truth, we all have to live with some compromise, it is just the way it is.

The idea that commercial bodies should be allowed to control the banking system and crash the world economy, extracting billions in profits and tax dollars for themselves, or the provision of health care or social health insurance and profiting obscenely by keep millions of of people uninsured and sick and/or underinsured and dying, or having private mercenary corporations receiving tens of billions of dollars to commit war crimes abroad, etc. etc. all seem to me to be infinitely more absurd.

I would not want to rate the level of absurdity for those different matters, but otherwise I might agree.

However, perhaps if people were taught to think instead of how to fill in bubbles on tests, more people might be aware that these things are happening, and perhaps some of this absurdity might eventually be changed.

Or maybe not...

Regardless, do you have anything to add from personal experience as a teacher? Have you taught music, for instance? Do you or have you taught piano privately?

Some of us are talking about how testing affects our work, as teachers, because of problems it creates that directly affect what we do. I was talking specifically about testing done in Florida, in my area, and some of the results I see on a daily basis as the result of said testing.

I don't know much of anything about being a management consultant, which your profile says is your occupation. What do you know about teaching piano, which is my occupation?

.... perhaps if people were taught to think instead of how to fill in bubbles on tests, more people might be aware that these things are happening, and perhaps some of this absurdity might eventually be changed.

Or maybe not...

But to implement testing that is valid and tests integration and mastery, essay questions for example, requires having real, live, paid teachers to mark and correct them. And we all know that that is impossible since if you read the newspaper or pay attention at local city hall and school board meetings, almost all teachers are lazy, incompetent, overpaid, union sheltered slackers that we would all be better off without, along with firefighters, police men and women and others spending our tax dollars. The Banksters of course deserve all their hard-earned billions. And testing corporations that get on the gravy train are off limits too.

.... perhaps if people were taught to think instead of how to fill in bubbles on tests, more people might be aware that these things are happening, and perhaps some of this absurdity might eventually be changed.

Or maybe not...

But to implement testing that is valid and tests integration and mastery, essay questions for example, requires having real, live, paid teachers to mark and correct them. And we all know that that is impossible since if you read the newspaper or pay attention at local city hall and school board meetings, almost all teachers are lazy, incompetent, overpaid, union sheltered slackers that we would all be better off without, along with firefighters, police men and women and others spending our tax dollars. The Banksters of course deserve all their hard-earned billions. And testing corporations that get on the gravy train are off limits too.

I don't know how to respond to this, or if I should even try.

Your post sounds like a rant.

So do some of my posts.

If we had the opportunity to sit down and talk, I suspect we might find out that we are more in agreement on many of your points than you realize.

Have you ever considered that in my case you may be preaching to the choir?

Well, it is a forum. Although we appear to be having a dialog just the two of us, in fact, our dialog is being heard by many others. I hope you don't see me as arguing with or against you but arguing towards certain (shared) points...Peace!

Or perhaps it is fairer to say that there is considerable disagreement about what the word “atheist” means.

So there is a great deal of debate about just what CS Lewis was at the time that he LATER called himself an atheist.

That's how I see it too, but on doing a little research myself I realized many references do see him as an atheist-to-Christian conversion example. I think they misrepresent what really happened, but it's hard to know.

I completely agree! The tests are called EOG and they begin in about a month. Students already super stressed about them. Happens every year.

Had a student the other day in tears because she is failing some of her subjects, gets punished, but then tells her mother in my presence that the teacher is not explaining the homework, and mother agrees. How in the world do you sit by and not become the tiger mom and go down and complain?!?!?!

_________________________
Bachelor of Music (church music)Master of Church Music (organ, music education)Piano Teacher since 1992Church Musician since 1983