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im sorry but WTF!!!! how is it that 9 men who plead guilty to gang raping a 10 year old do not go to jail!!! but whats more the judge says the girl probably agreed to it, that is just so messed up on so many levels. I just cant comprehend how there could be any explanation, even if for whatever messed up reason she did consent she is below the age of consent which means they are supposed to go to jail!

not to mention the fact that in the same way a dr has a duty of care to their patient the judge has a duty of care to the victims and even though she has repeatedly violated that duty of care she is still a judge!!!EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1197310678)

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

"The report, in The Australian, says the girl was in foster care because she had previously been sexualy abused.

The paper said she was returned to the Cape York community of Aurukun and was then gang-raped.

The paper says social workers decided to remove the girl from her non-Indigenous foster family in Cairns because to keep her there would be tantamount to "another stolen generation"."

so yeah - white Australia is damned for the Stolen Generation, and then damned for allowing the abuse to happen in the communities. Trying harder when you dont have any good options is a bit difficult.

--Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

The paper says social workers decided to remove the girl from her non-Indigenous foster family in Cairns because to keep her there would be tantamount to "another stolen generation".

I think that's really sad. Basically, that girl was raped because of political paranoia. We're so scared of the stolen generation that it's destroyed our ability to help and therefore potentially destroyed a life that a foster family may have saved.

I was absolutely disgusted to read the headline on yesterday's Australian with this story and I agree with Ben that there appears to be a violation of duty of care.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing hereArnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

I know that there is a lot of abuse, and it is a fair question as to why. and i'm gaining a whole lot more understanding from her ( ) but i'd really, really like to see discussion, not just a bland statement that essentially reads

'Aborigines get different laws to us and i'm disgusted. And the judge is crap'

Posted:11th Dec 2007I think, Josh, what i meatn was that i wanted to not just stick to this one case, but to address the whole thing.... sorry if thats not what came out...

and the bryson quote in full:

'I realized that I didn't have the faintest idea what the solution to all this was, what was required to spread the fruits of general Australian prosperity to those who seemed so signally unable to find their way to it. If I were contracted by the Commonwealth of Australia to advise on Aboriginal issues all i could write would be: 'Do more. Try Harder. Start now.'

I certainly don't know any of the answers, not liveing there. but i do know that nearly every white australian i have ever spoken to on this issue (with the singular exception of Gabe)has squarely placed all blame for bad things happening on the Aboriginals. 100%. and i went out of my way to talk about it when i was in Australia.

'Aborigines get different laws to us and i'm disgusted. And the judge is crap'

I don't think people are disgusted because there are different sets of laws. I think people are disgusted because the gang rapists of a 10 year old got off. That would disgust anyone no matter the ethnicity of the perpetrators.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing hereArnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted:11th Dec 2007Wow bluecat, you musta found that frustrating. I certainly know a lot of white Australians that think very differently to what you are describing. But then (and I reminded myself of this when I was beginning to get angry about your assumptions), I also know a lot that do blame aboriginal people. I just choose not to socialise with them. I also don't know what to do about the problem, except publicly cry outrage when something that I feel is unjust happens (letters to editors, public meetings, rallies - all of which do happen in Australia too, occasionally... certainly saw my fair share after the palm riots). I agree with the "do more, try harder, start now". 100%. But I think it needs qualifying with some basic, 'it needs to come from a place of understanding, and it cannot make indigenous people feel more segregated". If you don't put on these qualifiers... you get people like our lovely (EX-PRIME MINISTER!!) Howard sending the army into remote aboriginal communities. I live in a beautiful small town in North Queensland and one of the first things that struck me is the almost complete segregation between the indigenous and non-indigenous populations. I think along with major political decisions (health, housing, education etc) basic grass roots moves like somehow having community gatherings designed to bring the two groups together would be a good thing... would help to bring about support and understanding from both sides... I think at the moment indigenous Australians and non-indigenous are still quite scared of each other. jebus... could go on all day. The rape made me feel physically sick. For a 26 year old man to have sex with a ten year old child and a judge to say the child consented... That would be bad enough... but for the child to also have eight other people rape her at the same time... time must have been standing still for the poor soul. I hope she gets justice and understanding one day.All my thought are with her. xo

Returning to a unique state of EquilibriumLocation: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289

Posted:11th Dec 2007unfortunately I think its even worse than it sounds.

The girl apparently had reported to a medical clinic that she had been having consensual sex and that she wanted a pregnancy test - and that she wanted some condoms. :/ I think the rape issue is more of a statutory rape issue rather than a 'forced sexual intercourse' issue.

I understand that she was / is below the legal limit for consent but I guess that's where all this controversy has come from.

The situation as I I see it is hopeless;

- pouring money on the situation isn't fixing it - self-government seems right, but doesnt seem to work very well- imposed government is wrong, and doesnt work very well- forcing them to move to the city is wrong- leaving them on the land leads to widespread health and welfare issues for women and children esp.- imposing special laws for remote communities (dry zones, etc etc) is unfair and potentially an abuse of human rights - and doesnt work very well- sending in the army is heavy handed, doesnt work and wrong- ignoring the situation doesnt work.- killing them off with guns / poison etc etc is wrong

So yeah - thats all the things that I think 'white Australia' has tried: for wrong or right, nothing has worked. While it is absolutely tragic whats going on - I'm at a loss to know what to do now. Anyone care to make a suggestion as to what we could be 'trying harder' to achieve?

I can see only one option, pour more money on the situation.

--Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Posted:11th Dec 2007Um... maybe try community gardens, swimming pools, community centres, doctors in the outback, proper schools with proper facilities. Sure it would cost a lot of money... but so are these continued hald-assed attemps that leave everyone confused and waiting for the next government anouncement that will change their lives!Its fine saying that everything has been tried... but its not really true. They (our goverment) has tried things that, on paper, will make it seem like they have tried. Its actually bulls*t. I will try to find links later, but last time i checked... when you actually take it into account -spending per capita on indigenous is less then on non-indigenous australiansi remember reading a really interesting result about the rate of youth crime levels after a pool was built in a remote community. It went down, quite a lot. It's fine saying we have tried everything. But go to a remote community - what is there to do? There are often no youth centres, no women's centres, no daycare, no jobs.... no hope. If a woman or child is being abused (or a man) there is absolutely no one to turn to. Communities need infrustructure and resources... and each community needs assessing on what exactly it needs... and we need some sort of communication between indigenous and non-indigenous communities.... free radio-stations (even in cities, they only run for a few hours a day)... some sort of interaction!Grrr... could go on all day. And, of course, I am not saying this is the solution... just one that has not been tried, and could work. Certainly a better option then just bulldozing people into another phase of community welfare/enforced medical checks etc. But we'd have to talk to aboriginal and torres straight islander people to see what they think, now wouldn't we?Oh, and say sorry Kevin! *end rant*

Returning to a unique state of EquilibriumLocation: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289

Posted:11th Dec 2007 Written by: Icarus

doctors in the outback, proper schools with proper facilities. Sure it would cost a lot of money...

see I dont think its about the money really - Doctors, Nurses and teachers *do* get paid more to work out on the lands, however having talked to people who have gone out there, its not worth the money, especially in the medical field, cuz its a constant battle to keep people taking the prescribed antibiotics, keeping their burns clean etc etc - one nurse I know said she felt depressed that she'd see the same children coming in over and over with the same wound getting worse and worse because their mums wouldnt do anything to look after it.

Written by: Icarus

Its fine saying that everything has been tried... but its not really true. They (our goverment) has tried things that, on paper, will make it seem like they have tried. Its actually bulls*t.

I will try to find links later, but last time i checked... when you actually take it into account -

spending per capita on indigenous is less then on non-indigenous australians

per capita?! that seems extremely unlikely to me, I'd like to see some evidence of that.

Written by: Icarus

It's fine saying we have tried everything. But go to a remote community - what is there to do? There are often no youth centres, no women's centres, no daycare, no jobs.... no hope.

I agree employment is an issue - but perhaps theres not much work out there in the middle of a desert? These are very remote areas and not many businesses operate out of these communities. If you compound the issues relating to poor education and health, the kind of work that could be useful would also have be unskilled / semi-skilled kind of stuff.

Written by: Icarus

If a woman or child is being abused (or a man) there is absolutely no one to turn to.

Communities need infrustructure and resources... and each community needs assessing on what exactly it needs...

What you are discussing is the kind of government funded self-government that often doesn't work because its entirely incompatible with the family-based traditional government system. This has been what has been happenning and not working.

Written by: Icarus

and we need some sort of communication between indigenous and non-indigenous communities....

Like School trips (that happens) like collaborative DVD interactions? These things happen.

Written by: Icarus

free radio-stations (even in cities, they only run for a few hours a day)... some sort of interaction!

Grrr... could go on all day. And, of course, I am not saying this is the solution... just one that has not been tried, and could work.

I think these things are happening. and not working particularly well. Pools in particular are being used as an incentive for school attendance and health checkups, but the community needs to be fairly functional before bargains like that will even work anyhow.

Written by: Icarus

Certainly a better option then just bulldozing people into another phase of community welfare/enforced medical checks etc.

But we'd have to talk to aboriginal and torres straight islander people to see what they think, now wouldn't we?

like ATSIC? - that didn't really work very well?

Look I think this is the main problem with this whole debate - there are people who think there are obvious things that we haven't tried, but we have, and there are people like me that think the situation really hasn't got an answer and cant see a way forward (who probly get misinterpreted as 'racist aborigine haters'). I do not blame the Aborigines for the situation at all, however I'm aware enough of at least some of the major issues that are standing in the way of 'fixing' the situation that I cant just run along with the 'you just arent trying hard enough' bit. sorry folks, I believe unfortunately that there are some problems that are too big to 'fix' once there is a long enough history behind them.

--Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Well actually the title is what i meant it to be i probably should have discussed it more. Earlier this year i went and did a 10 day stint in central Australia teaching spinning in two of the remote aboriginal communities. When we arrived we where told of the abuse in the communities and that we should be aware that not some but ALL of the children in the workshop will have been abused.

Thats a pretty confronting thing especially as there are NO consequences, the "solution" that had been implemented was to separate the older children from the younger children. The reason being that after being abused as a young child when the children are slightly older they continue the cycle of abuse. Its not a one off case.

While I was there I only got a glimpse of life out there, and it was very bleak, until that trip I held the opinion that if your not happy with your life do something about it, when I was out there it made me realize how few options are available to some people. If I had grown up in either of the two communities I don't think that I would have been able to rise above my circumstances.

There is so much substance abuse in the communities I visited that upon arrival to the schools after a quick hello the first thing the principle went through with us was the schools lock down procedure followed by a warning not to leave the school grounds under any circumstances as there had been a lot of violence over the weekend because of substance abuse and there where still people wandering around that where off tap.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

A survey carried out among 120 households in Adelaide found 90 per cent of the women and 84 per cent of the young girls had been raped at some stage of their lives. In most States, more than 70 per cent of assaults on Aboriginal women are carried out by their husbands or boyfriends Aboriginal women are 20 times more likely than non-Aboriginal women to be victims of violence

Its fine saying that everything has been tried... but its not really true. They (our goverment) has tried things that, on paper, will make it seem like they have tried. Its actually bulls*t. I will try to find links later, but last time i checked... when you actually take it into account -spending per capita on indigenous is less then on non-indigenous australians

per capita?! that seems extremely unlikely to me, I'd like to see some evidence of that.

in all papers I have found the spending (health, not anything else) is slightly more per capita for indigenous peoples, but the majority say that in real terms it is less (except in NT) due to the high costs of delivering services.

Written by: Josh

I agree employment is an issue - but perhaps theres not much work out there in the middle of a desert? These are very remote areas and not many businesses operate out of these communities. If you compound the issues relating to poor education and health, the kind of work that could be useful would also have be unskilled / semi-skilled kind of stuff

And there you have a cultural assumption going a little astray, IMO. Why does employment have to mean business? not even in the UK is that true. Was there any business in OZ before the 18th century?

In any case, there is no shame in semi-skilled employment. and FFS training can also be given. people DO respond to it.

Written by: Josh

I think these things are happening. and not working particularly well. Pools in particular are being used as an incentive for school attendance and health checkups, but the community needs to be fairly functional before bargains like that will even work anyhow.

I'm sorry, But i can't agree there. You're basically saying that they have to sort themselves out of a mess that is not of their own making before they can be helped. Holistic approaches are needed, not bargaining.

Written by: Josh

Look I think this is the main problem with this whole debate - there are people who think there are obvious things that we haven't tried, but we have, and there are people like me that think the situation really hasn't got an answer and cant see a way forward (who probly get misinterpreted as 'racist aborigine haters'). I do not blame the Aborigines for the situation at all, however I'm aware enough of at least some of the major issues that are standing in the way of 'fixing' the situation that I cant just run along with the 'you just arent trying hard enough' bit. sorry folks, I believe unfortunately that there are some problems that are too big to 'fix' once there is a long enough history behind them.

Hmm. well, firstly, I'm not saying that things haven't been tried. But my gut feeling is that until we (and the British Government has as big a responsibility here) have built every single indigenous person a house and given them land (as they are no longer equipped/skilled to live in their traditional way) we have no right to ask anything of them, and we should be trying our hardest to make their lives as easy as we possibly can, not fighting ridiculous wars to 'liberate' other peoples or other foolish misuses of taxes.

However, this is clearly not the best idea, for many, many reasons, so please don't just throw that back at me. As Noel Pearson writes;

Written by:

On the indigenous side, the extreme position is that of separatism, yet the largest constituency on the indigenous side subscribes to victimhood.

People object to my interpretation of victimhood because what many of our people regard as radical, separatist and resistance politics, I say is victim politics. What may have been a truly radical act at one time, such as the tent embassy in 1972, degenerates into a sad symbol of defeatist, victim politics as is plain with the squalid demountables at the tent embassy site in 2007.

We pay a high price for casting ourselves as victims. The tactic of victimhood becomes an identity. Victimhood damages our people - from the young student who believes that academic achievement at school is "acting white", to those who tolerate the abuse of domestic violence because it is "understandable" given the history of the people concerned.

We indigenes of Australia are confused in our cultural understanding of victimisation and victimhood. Yes, individuals and groups in our society are victimised in a variety of ways. But it is a terrible thing to encourage victims to see themselves as victims.

To adopt this mentality is fatal because it concedes defeat, and it can also literally kill. Victims do not take responsibility for education, economy, health and mental well-being; their families become dysfunctional and their children are damaged even before they are born.

The worst indulgence is to take away the one power victims need to survive, to defy victimisation. To say: "Yes, I have suffered victimisation - but I'm not giving in by becoming a victim."

Who in world history has ever been saved by anyone in the way we hope whitefellas will save our people?

This to my mind is clearly true - that expecting it just to be laid out is only going to make matters worse by stacking up the victim complex.which is why I'm going off to donate to the Oxfam Australia cause (more on that in a moment)

Problems are not 'fixable' when they get to this scale and history, you are certainly right there. but (i've done a lot of reading in the last 24 hours) every single quick fix has been just that - a small test somewhere, or a totally misguided cover for something else. the small things are ineffective because they don't last, and as for things like sending in the army..... I'm sorry too josh - sorry that someone as open as you can not see that trying harder is clearly possible.

This oxfam page shows a little of what can be acheived, and how, if funds are used wisely. and yet Oxfam are having to spend a large proportion of their cash in lobbying the Aus government to change some of the systematic wrongs. hopefully that'll change with the new government.

anyway. Once again, I'm not saying I have all the answers, or even a few of them. just that from the outside it is clear that not all that cold be tried has been, and that the approach has been broadly flawed for many, many years. It's easy to say that with hindsight (and distancesight), but It's the attitude of 'it can't be fixed' that means it will never even get close

(ps, i have changed my first post to be a little less inflammatory, sorry )

In any case, there is no shame in semi-skilled employment. and FFS training can also be given. people DO respond to it.

This is true however its not that simple. Aboriginal culture is very different to white culture, i didn't get it at all when i was trying to get the young men to take part in the show.

The Aboriginal culture is traditionally passed on completely by word of mouth, for those entrusted with the culture if they make a mistake in retelling it they are then effectively destroying thousands of years of heritage. As a result once you have your rights of passage and become a young man you can no longer make care free mistakes.

Being laughed at for trying something new and making a mistake is a huge deal, particularly if it is in front of a group, the shame of making a mistake in front of the community means that you wouldn't show your face for weeks! Traditionally if you made a mistake in retelling a story you would be speared!!!! So while new skills can be taught it is not a simple thing to do as there are HUUUUUUGE cultural barriers.

Written by: bluecat

I'm sorry, But i can't agree there. You're basically saying that they have to sort themselves out of a mess that is not of their own making before they can be helped. Holistic approaches are needed, not bargaining.

The solutions need to come from within the community simply because there is huge distrust of white people due to years of being screwed over. In the Aboriginal communities position in the community and family are very important, a stranger can not fix the communities problems because they are not known to the community hence the elders will not embrace the change and as a result neither will the rest of the community.

When i tried to go and talk to the older men in the community i got shut down by them because they didnt know me or have any context of who I was, it wasnt until they had seen me do the workshops and teach their young people that they came to me to talk. The only way real change will come about in the communities is through the empowerment of leaders in the community to bring about change. One of the Aboriginal school teachers I met has begun to do just that, he self taugh himself acrobatics by watching jackie chan movies and has been teaching the young men, giving them something to channel their energy into and be proud of.

Written by: bluecat

Hmm. well, firstly, I'm not saying that things haven't been tried. But my gut feeling is that until we (and the British Government has as big a responsibility here) have built every single indigenous person a house and given them land (as they are no longer equipped/skilled to live in their traditional way) we have no right to ask anything of them, and we should be trying our hardest to make their lives as easy as we possibly can

Actually rob that is exactly the attitude that has created a lot of the problems, huge amounts of money has been pumped into the communities houses have been built many many cars brought but no one actually asked the people in the communities what it is that is important to them and what they want, simply telling them what they need dis empowers the communities.

Throwing money at the problem results in sever malnutrition because many of the parents simply give the children money to go to the shop at lunch to buy junk food rather than nutritious food. The dis empowerment and destruction of the culture has led to much substance abuse to escape the reality, eg one of the water holes at Uluru becoming toxic due to countless tourists climbing the rock and then urinating off the top, the end result being part of the dreaming being destroyed as a tradition can no longer be completed. To put it in context its kind of like going to a cathedral, burning it down then pissing on the ashes.

Treating Aboriginals as victims just further compounds the problem, its not something we can fix, but we can play a role in facilitating change by empowering the communities. Giving lots of money to people that dont have experience in managing money just makes more problems because the people trying to help haven't taken the time to understand the what the people they are trying to help actually want.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

Posted:12th Dec 2007Has there always been widespread rape and abuse of children in Aboriginal Society? Or is this a new phenomenon? I know you guys are gonna scream RACIST!! at me but to tell you the truth I am against a race of people that practice child abuse on such a huge scale. I think a society like that has no place in the modern world. It must change or die out. They refuse to change so......

Has there always been widespread rape and abuse of children in Aboriginal Society? Or is this a new phenomenon?

New phenomenon, but widespread. Traditional practices were very strict around sexual appropriateness and family relationship.

Violence to women though... many early whites commented on that. But then, leg spearing and other seemingly harsh enforcements of tradition was part of what kept it intact.

But there is minimal point to talk intensely about what happened in fully traditional times. There are many elements of the old cultures still informing people... like the behaviours around teasing for mistakes that Pyrolific alluded to before.. and positive things too... many....

But the damage to people and culture is immense... loss of land,spirit, skills and kinship...welfare 'sit down money' eroding the authority of elders... vendettas between smashed up families jammed in what were reserves and missions ...generational grief and despair... rampant degenerative and chronic diseases.... teen girls with foetal alcohol syndrome having babies with foetal alcohol syndrome.. it goes on and on.

The girl in the original story is such a child. The reason why the judge said she 'probably consented' is that she like many kids, has learned to trade sex for cigarettes, booze, food etc. It's serious . I know a lot about the systemic abuse from white agency. SOme of it wrapped up in good intentions, some just vicious. What is doubly and newly tragic is the addition of layers of abuse now coming from within the communities...

Posted:12th Dec 2007There's a remarkable company called "Outback Pride" which was featured on this weeks' Landline, (a fantastic program largely about country issues).

The company plants native seeds in outback communities, the black fellas tend the garden and get full picking rights when they want some tucker, therefore improving their nutrition, and they get paid to pick the goods which are then processed, marketed and sold through either Coles or Woolies, can't remember which. They're considering going international soon, if anyone sees their goods, get them.

The lady who runs the company has a policy that she will not give money if asked, she'll give a spade and tell them to start digging.

So, the communities have something to do, a way of earning money, and most importantly, have pride in what they're doing. Please support them if you see the goods (the lemon myrtle is particularly good with fish).

To get back to the original point. I talked about aboriginal tradition with an archaeologist/anthropologist while doing a Cultural Heritage sweep for a major pipeline. He said that traditionally, marriage was by conquest is many communities; you do a raid, grab the women, then "marry" them (which I think is a bit of a euphamism. Is the abuse stemming from this?

Having things to channel energy into, such as commercial gardens seems to return the pride into an ancient and remarkable people. Schemes like that mentioned above work far better than handing out money ever wil, it just takes people with the energy and tenacity to get them set up.

There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

Posted:12th Dec 2007Considering that the girl "probably consented" and that many kids are learning to trade sex for various things...WHY is that the case?

It reminds me a lot of the schoolgirl prostitution in Japan; children don't necessarily know better, but the older men (older not necessarily meaning "old", just older than the girls) are the ones that allow it to happen by providing a market for it.

According to an article in the Age yesterday, when the girl was gang raped the first time, one of the men was 26. A 7 year old (the age she was at the time) might not understand the full concept of right and wrong when it comes to sex, but a 26 year old would!

Consenting or not, a 16/17/26 year old is mature enough to know that sex with 7 year olds is seriously

So why is it then that the older men are providing a market for this to occur?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing hereArnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Returning to a unique state of EquilibriumLocation: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289

Posted:12th Dec 2007 Written by: bluecat

Written by: Josh

I agree employment is an issue - but perhaps theres not much work out there in the middle of a desert? These are very remote areas and not many businesses operate out of these communities. If you compound the issues relating to poor education and health, the kind of work that could be useful would also have be unskilled / semi-skilled kind of stuff

And there you have a cultural assumption going a little astray, IMO. Why does employment have to mean business? not even in the UK is that true. Was there any business in OZ before the 18th century?

sorry - by employment I mean something meaningful to do that ends with getting some money - so that you can break out of the victim / sit down pay cycle.

And yes - in Australia a truck driver can earn more than a teacher (go the resources boom!), so semi-skilled work is obviously valued. Training can be given - but just to use an example, I had an acquaintance that worked as a teacher in the lands, and he tried everything he could to keep students in his school, to get an education. This is one very educated and dedicated dude (as are just about everyone in social services who work on the lands IMHO) . In the end it came down to the kids saying;

"whats the point of me learning anything beyond year 9 because out here on the community there is no need to know anything technical and I'm not going anywhere..."

This didn't stop my mate tho - he started a really strong trade-based in school training program which did end up with some kids getting more than just really basic literacy skills. For example one kid ended up with a concreting apprenticeship. His workplace was something like 100ks from his home.

And in regards to your comments relating to incentive based social change, with something large like a pool - the whole community needs to be able to come through with their part of the bargain (ie you cant say; ok we'll build a pool if you put your kids in school, and then when only 20% of the kids go to school still build the pool - think exactly what pattern that will be setting...). incentive programs like that are open to abuse, and often will be abused. incentive programs (read http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/mg19626311.700-cash-incentives-worth-every-penny.html)can work - however they need to be targeted at the individuals who are changing their behaviours..

--Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!