The most diet proffesionals consider the best is a diet which involves small amounts of meat. This is the same as other high primates eat.

The majority of the vegan argumetns I hear revolve around peopel taht eat tons of meat/dairy. It IS true that eating lots of dairy/meat (aka most americans) is bad for your health and on some level bad for the enviorment. However, this is NOT an arugment against meat eating... it is an argumetn against excessive meat eating.

The stats I have read have been obviously biased. Loook vegans and vegetarians are health concious individuals. People taht watch what they eat will live longer. The majority of meat eaters are not very concerned, or at least not actively trying to eat a great diet. However I HIGHLY doubt that a person who consumed moderate amounts of meat/dairy would die sooner than a vegetarian, at least in any significant amount. The majority of my friends are vegetarians or vegans. and most of them have horrible diets. Especially the vegans.

one thing to consider is not everyone has a lot of money. People keep mentioning there being "alternatives to meat/dairy products" and there are.... HOWEVER they are very expensive. Being vegan normally costs a lot more.

And before someone says it please dont' give me the argument that "oh meat takes more energy to produce, you could feed 20 times as many people with veganism" I hear this argument almost every day. It would be nice if it were true, id go vegan to feed 20 people but the fact is we could easily produce enough food to feed the world. Hell the u.s. burns excess crops every year. BURNS THEM. The problem is economic, not dietary.

none of this is meant to say veganism is bad or stupid or a waste, but veganism is a personal thing. As far as im concerned the only legitimate vegan arguments are the enviorment and the moral question of eating meat. You really aren't harming the enviorment much if you eat meat in mmoderation so take that as you will, and the moral question is a puerly subjective one. Do you believe its wrong to kill animals for food? I don't, but I can see how one would. I can't see how one would think its clearly wrong though.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 12:44 am

argot

Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 958
Location: rhode island

See

I disagree... if you eat meat you are directly responsible for the problems that it has on the environment as well as other people. The same way you are responsible for sweatshops if you rock Nike. You don't need to have a large amount of cash flow to be Vegan. Trust me. Trust me... you don't. I forgot what else was in your post that i could address... ha.
Peace
argot

Sat Sep 07, 2002 2:19 am

quasifoto

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 975
Location: Albany

just to reply (not argue - so you know my tone) to August Spies. First off i'm not a kid. what i mean by that is that vegan kids or kids in general eat poorly and when i was a kid and went vegan i probably didn't eat that good. but i think i would have eaten worse if i wasn't aware of food choices. and i was piss poor so i couldn't afford much. most diet proffesionals consider the best diet to be what the gov't tells them. there is economics envolved here. so yeas your stats are biased but at least you're aware.

I could give a shit about health in the big picture. It's just a side benefit. But it's a side point that helps the cause for the environment/earth.

the majority of yur friends probably eat way better than the majority of my friends who aren't veg and eat junk including fast food. are your meat eater friends eating better than the vegetarians? most likey not, and i could be wrong. But that could be individual issues, maybe due to age. But if you look at the diets of average vegans compared to average meat-eaters you'd have to say the vegans fare much better.

I'll admit it cost more money. Although it doesn't have to, it can be done cheaply. It costs more to eat animals. Not speaking money. But lives and fuel. And do you think that these farms aren't supported by the gov't financially. Animal products should not be so cheap! Free range food costs more. So this is where you're green vote($) really counts. MONEY IS POWER, people. You pay for people to do the killing for you, it's easy that way! Sure this sucks, but if you see something is wrong you make some effort.

"And before someone says it please dont' give me the argument that "oh meat takes more energy to produce, you could feed 20 times as many people with veganism" I hear this argument almost every day. It would be nice if it were true, id go vegan to feed 20 people but the fact is we could easily produce enough food to feed the world. Hell the u.s. burns excess crops every year. BURNS THEM. The problem is economic, not dietary."

I'll blame the gov't with you but at the same time your choices DO have consequenses regardless. As a human on the planet you can NOT support waste of fuel, harming environment. These statistics aren't reality because it'll never happen, but they show the waste involved and that you as an individual have responsibilities. So it is a valid point.

Veganism is a personal thing that goes beyond the individual that is vegan. Your choices affect others so in a way that's not personal.

At such an early age, we are taught by our school system to eat using the food triange provided by, you guessed it, US Agriculture and US Dairy Industries. The people to become vegan are obviously taught and educated in an alternate fashion. And I feel that it is somewhat the responsiblity of the vegitarian/vegan to educate others on the subject. I'm not saying that I preach the vegan gospel every day, but I certainly will speak when given the chance to explain my motive for being vegan. Most people just aren't aware of what actually takes place behind closed doors in the Meat and Dairy Industries, sponsored by the MAN...the US government.

And you really are harming if you support even a little. Because you are part of a bigger picture.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:24 am

Mr Ass

Joined: 17 Aug 2002
Posts: 252

I am a vegetarian. but I eat fish (cos they dont have any feelings...)

And it is more the modern battery farming methods I have a problem with, rathern than eating animals. After all, most animals would eat you if they had the chance.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:28 am

Thinkdifferent

Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 9
Location: Woonsocket RI

I definitely agree with you argot ... eating meat is the direct cause for environmental problems that we have. Check out the following link for those who want to learn more: http://www.veg.ca/lifelines/marapr/meat.htm
I also believe it would be beneficial for anyone who hasn't already seen the video "Meet your meat" to do so. Here's the link to this video and a few other that are all worth checking out: http://www.goveg.com/r-mym.html

"The question is not, Can they reason? Nor, Can they talk?
But rather, Can they suffer?"
Jeremy Bentham

Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:30 am

SageBobblehead

Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 14

ahh food

firstly, i'd like to say that food is one of my passions. i sometimes can't stop thinking of it, mostly the cooking and preparation of food.
i moved from chicago, where i was a carnivore, just like what seemed to be the rest of chi-town. i moved to washington state about 4 years ago. this is where my new affinity for food began.
i first became vegetarian, cause cutting meat out of my diet was easy and there is an abundance of natural products here. i then met some other kids and tried being vegan. i don't know what it is, but when i try to cut something (meat,cheese,pot,alcohal) out of my life, i just do it, cold turkey. i was vegan for a year and a half. great experience. i found it really hard to eat when i visited the midwest, but other than that my health was great. about 2 thanksgivings ago i began to eat meat again. since then, the standard for what i put in body has been raised.

now, i agree w/ august spies, about usa eating an absurd amount of dairy/meat, which does cause enviromental problems not to mention health risks. i know many a people who don't feel they ate a meal if it doesn't have meat. it is important (for the enviroment and to a lesser extent, health risk) to know where your meat comes from (not to mention our precious veggies) i've been buying meat from a local farm, where they raise their own feed and livestock. i am fortunate to know where my food comes from, many are not.
now, the important question. how in touch with the food you eat are you? the less attached to your food you are, the less attached to your health you are.
anyways i could ramble on about food all day...

ps
any soy eaters>>>> does soy upset your stomach?
when i eat soy, it makes my stomach feel like shit.

oh yeah, one more thing.
the key to living a long life is never to eat till your full.

good point, people like to pretend that cutting out meat makes htem live a cruelty free life but the reality is your vegatables are being picked by poorly treated migrant workers etc...

personally I agree with the teh arguments against modern corporate farming practises (both for animal suffering and eviormental reasons) but I think the root problem here is modern capitalism, not diet per se.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 12:16 pm

quasifoto

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 975
Location: Albany

i'd personally rather be a migrant worker in the fields than work in a slaughterhouse or factory farm any day.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:05 pm

praton3030

Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 235
Location: frederick, Md

U know, i hear that being a vegetarian can be bad for u, i can't remember, i would have to do the reasearch on it

Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:25 pm

argot

Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 958
Location: rhode island

yeah

And i heard that having input on a topic that you have no knowledge on is pointless... i heard that

i gotta research it though

Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:26 pm

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

well id rather be a human over an animal in most situations.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 8:07 pm

kilgore trout

Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Location: charlottesville VA

several issus i'd like to raise

1. veganbs smell weird. this is undeniable.

2. eating meat is MORE expensive. if you insist on drinking milk maybe. i drink water, eat rice and curry, spahghetti and tomato sauce, no meat ivolved, cheap, tasty, easy to make.

3. it has been proved over and over that the most healthy kind of diet is fish and vegeatles.

4. don't give me that moralistic crap. do you ever stepon ants? do you wear leather free shoes? etc. the pbvious. chamnces are, you-including any vegan have kill'd at least one insectt today. evolution means not every animal is worthy to live. living just toi live is no argument. similarly, i see no reason why people who know hey are going to be on welfare their whole life don't either do suttin or shoot themselves, god knows i'd do one of the two.

5. vegans, beware! being self righteous sneaks up on vegans almost as often as republican fundamentalist christians.

6. if you're gonna be a vegan don't be gay, just realize that our kissing goodbye to meatballs, hot dogs, milk, cheese et al. don't buy those gay ass soy pups, or nnot cheese, or oy milk. just say "if i'm gonna do this i might as well do it" and break yourself of the consumption of the fatty food and the expense.

7. i am not a vegetarian but in view of the fact that my finances are questionable and i am not that great at cooking complex dishes and insist on cooking and eating well, i don't eat meat dishes more than maybe once a week. also, even though i am not muslim or jewish i feel a revulsion when confonrted with pork- like, shivers and all. its a mental thing, because my boy was like yo have these sausages , i think they are beef but then when i learned they were pork i felt sickedned.

8. fast food tastes like shit, in addition to being unhealthy.

i'm done now

Sat Sep 07, 2002 8:10 pm

argot

Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 958
Location: rhode island

wow

This is getting ridiculous... being vegan is doing all that you can to voluntarily avoid the harm of animals... if i own leather shoes they are from when i was not vegan... i have synthetic shoes by saucony on my feet right now that i bought from a vegan shoe store in NYC. You are being more than unreasonable and exceptionally moronic.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 11:14 pm

quasifoto

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 975
Location: Albany

in reply to Kilgore trout

vegans smell weird??? what? like farts or what the hell are you talking about? never heard that one before.

"4. don't give me that moralistic crap. do you ever stepon ants? do you wear leather free shoes? etc. the pbvious. chamnces are, you-including any vegan have kill'd at least one insectt today. evolution means not every animal is worthy to live. living just toi live is no argument. similarly, i see no reason why people who know hey are going to be on welfare their whole life don't either do suttin or shoot themselves, god knows i'd do one of the two."

this is moronic. you just aren't listening or something. no one is claiming human perfection, it's not about anything like that. i step on bugs and sure there are difinately parts of living that cause suffering to other beings, but we try not to support it.

self righteous? that's just a lame comment.

"6. if you're gonna be a vegan don't be gay, just realize that our kissing goodbye to meatballs, hot dogs, milk, cheese et al. don't buy those gay ass soy pups, or nnot cheese, or oy milk. just say "if i'm gonna do this i might as well do it" and break yourself of the consumption of the fatty food and the expense. "

really dumb comment. i don't even know what to say it's so silly. it's about animal suffering not the names and tastes of food. and it's not fatty.

people are making this personal when it's about a diet and moral issue.

Sun Sep 08, 2002 6:42 am

Thinkdifferent

Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 9
Location: Woonsocket RI

ridiculous

Vegans are not claiming to be perfect... The whole point is to limit the amount of suffering we cause whenever possible: To ourselves, animals, and the environment. We do this by reducing the demand for meat and other animal products by not buying them. This does not mean that I don't acknowledge the fact that I do cause some suffering, whether it is accidentally stepping on a bug, driving a car, or even buying food from the store knowing many insects and maybe animals were hit in the process of the delivering the food to the store.