Now during this utterance, there arose in the venerable Kondañña the spotless, immaculate vision of the True Idea: "Whatever is subject to arising is all subject to cessation."

This "Dhamma Eye" is one of the stock descriptions of a stream enterer.

Ajahn Pasanno wrote:[There are several phrasings and translations:]

And just as a clean cloth from which all stains have beenremoved receives the dye perfectly, so in the Brahmin Kþ¥adanta, ashe sat there, there arose the pure and spotless Dhamma-eye, and heknew: “Whatever things have an origin must come to cessation.”Then Kþ¥adanta, having seen, attained, experienced and penetratedthe Dhamma, having passed beyond doubt, transcendeduncertainty, having gained perfect confidence in the Teacher’sdoctrine without relying on others.~ D 5.29-30 (Maurice Walshe trans.)

Just as a clean cloth with all marks removed would takedye evenly, so too, while the householder Upali sat there, thespotless immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in him: “All thatis subject to arising is subject to cessation.” Then the householderUpali saw the Dhamma, attained the Dhamma, understood thehamma, fathomed the Dhamma; he crossed beyond doubt, didaway with perplexity, gained intrepidity, and becameindependent of others in the Teacher’s Dispensation.~ M 56.18 (Bhikkhu Ñanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi trans.)

To Upali the householder, as he was sitting right there,there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever issubject to origination is all subject to cessation. Then – havingseen the Dhamma, having reached the Dhamma, known theDhamma, reached a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over& beyond doubt, having had no more questioning – Upæli thehouseholder gained fearlessness and was independent of otherswith regard to the Teacher’s message.~ M 56.18 (Thanissaro Bhikkhu trans.)

Here, the key factor in turning away from the stream of the world andentering the stream of Dhamma is the insight into impermanence, along with theseeing of a causal connection between all phenomena. We can recognize thatseeing the truth of “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation,” is notbeyond our own or anybody else’s capabilities. Having made this point, thediscourse goes onto describe the results, the first being the transcending of doubt and uncertainty.

Due to the different nature of the English and Pali languages, there aredifficulties in translation that may obscure crucial aspects of the Dhamma. If wetranslate the stream-entry vision literally from Pali, we have something like ‘what-ever arising-dhamma cessation-dhamma.’ This is terrible English but beautifulinsight. English grammar requires subject and verb. Thus ‘something’ arises andceases. Hence ‘dhamma’ comes across as a thing, or an attribute of things. A thinghas existence in time, so whatever thing arises, or is subject to arising, subsequent-ly ceases. This is not really news to the reflective mind. However if we considerstream-entry as something profound, it would be useful to consider the experienceto be one in which the very process that brings ‘things’ to awareness is seen into.That is, the mind is experiencing an ‘event-stream’ dynamic of arising and ceasingthat rules out substantiality

It is like writing in water – the experience is of arising and ceasingoccupying the same time frame. In this light, perhaps a better rendering would be‘Whatever is experienced as arising, is experienced as ceasing’; or ‘Any experienceof arising is an experience of ceasing,’ the enigmatic ring of which may alert thereader to the profundity of the experience.

This would also result in a direct understanding of dependent arising: thatis of a reality not of things existing in a void, but a dynamic of forces, currents andtendencies. There is no void. The ‘unconditioned dhamma’ some texts allude to isthe experience of an awareness that doesn’t support or give rise to conditions.

Whether one agrees with the exact conclusion regarding how arising-and-ceasing is experienced, it seems undeniable that the mundane observation that "things arise and cease" is not what is being talked about in these sutta passages.

A thing has existence in time, so whatever thing arises, or is subject to arising, subsequently ceases. This is not really news to the reflective mind. However if we consider stream-entry as something profound, it would be useful to consider the experience to be one in which the very process that brings ‘things’ to awareness is seen into.

... and it is explained in the Buddha's suttas on dependent origination.

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

The Safety of the Island: Exploring the Nature of Nibanna RSS iTunesBeginning with an overview of the teachings on nibbana, Ajahn Amaro elaborated on definitions the teachings of 'non-self'. The afternoon addressed the essential themes of attending to the deathless, unsupported consciousness and the unconditioned and non-locality. He then discussed applications of the teachings to the Gradual Path, stream entry and the blessings of nibbana, followed by discussion.

mikenz66 wrote:Yes, I think that book is excellent... It covers much the same material as Ven Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons

That's enough of a recommendation for me. Downloaded! Once I finish the text I'm reading at the moment, I'll endeavour to get it across onto the iPad.

mikenz66 wrote:Anyway, any comments about the "whatever arising-dhamma cessation-dhamma" "translation"?

I thought it was cute, and I agree with the analysis given (and highlighted by you in red).

The second part you highlighted goes to show that 'ceasing' and 'arising' are actually entirely subjective, and require a thing-ness (dhamma) to exist with respect to.

It is like writing in water – the experience is of arising and ceasingoccupying the same time frame. In this light, perhaps a better rendering would be‘Whatever is experienced as arising, is experienced as ceasing’; or ‘Any experienceof arising is an experience of ceasing,’ the enigmatic ring of which may alert thereader to the profundity of the experience.

To give an example - the sound ceases, the silence arises... whether the experience is framed as ceasing or arising is entirely predicated upon the thing (dhamma) it is being bench-marked against.

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

"He understands thus: 'This, indeed, is how there comes to be be the inclusion, gathering, and amassing of things into these five aggregates affected by clinging. Now this has been said by the Blessed One: "One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma, one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination." And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen." [MN 28.38 Bhikkhu Bodhi]

Please note: "... gathering and amassing of things ...", and that this "mass" of things is "dependently arisen" - past tense.

He sees that all the things which have arisen are capable of ceasing. Because what has arisen in dependence on ignorance, will cease when ignorance is eliminated.

In ‘yaṃ kiñci samudayadhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirodhadhamman’ti only a verb (atthi - to be) is omitted, a subject is there (kiñci - whatever). But it's nothing uncommon in Pāli as well as in many other languages. The usual translation might sound not so profound but I guess that in order to understand its meaning one has to connect it with specific conditionality and therefore with dependent arising.

piotr wrote:... only a verb (atthi - to be) is omitted, a subject is there (kiñci - whatever). But it's nothing uncommon in Pāli as well as in many other languages. The usual translation might sound not so profound but I guess that in order to understand its meaning one has to connect it with specific conditionality and therefore with dependent arising.

Certainly there is a danger in simply manipulating the language to make it sound "deep".

Then the Blessed One uttered the exclamation: "Kondañña knows! Kondañña knows!," and that is how that venerable one acquired the name, Añña-Kondañña — Kondañña who knows.

is much more than that of a teacher happy that his philosophy student has been paying attention. Kondañña has clearly had a profound experience.

Better understanding the descriptions of stream entry (and other path/fruition experiences) in the suttas might help narrow the apparent disconnect between the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta and descriptions of stream entry in later literature (Commentaries and modern accounts). Ajahn Pasanno's alternate translation: ‘Any experience of arising is an experience of ceasing’ to me sounds a lot like the commentarial descriptions of the experience of rapid arising and dissolution of phenomena.

I guess it goes to show that one should use what one has learned (for what else could be used?), but in doing so should vigilantly remain open to improvements, enhancements, and even revisions of that accumulated understanding.

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

"The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being.

"Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.

Here is the Sutta from PTS Gradual Sayings Vol. 1, page 67. [ The book of twos, chapter V, #4]

"Monks, there are these two companies. What two? The Ariyan and the un-Ariyan (1). And what, monks, is the un-Ariyan company? Herein, monks, in whatsoever company the monks understand not, as it really is, the meaning of "This is suffering"; understand not, as it really is, the meaning of "This is the arising of suffering"; understand not, as it really is, the meaning of "This is the ending of suffering"; understand not ... "This is the practice leading to the ending of suffering", - this company is called "the un-Ariyan." And what, monks is the Ariyan company? (The reverse of the above). ..... These are the two companies, and of these two the Ariyan company has the pre-eminence.

Footnote 1. Comy, distinguishes them as "that of noble disciples" and "that of the ordinary persons".

[ I have made some minor changes, such as replacing "Ill" with "suffering".]

One of the best Sutta's for understanding what the stream-enterer has understood is SN 12.41 I will note the main points. [ Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 578]

1. A noble disciple can declare himself to be a "stream-enterer", when:

a) Five fears have subsided.

b) He possesses the four factors of stream-entry.

c) He has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom the noble method.

Details of the third item (c) the noble method, is given below:

"And what is the noble method that he has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom? Here, householder, the noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus:"When this exists, that comes to be: with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be] .... Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; ......... Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering."

It does not say that he has penetrated the four noble truths, but this is because dependent origination is the detailed understanding of the four noble truths.

The simile of writing in water seems to be indicating basically the same thing in both cases, i.e. the non-substantiality of phenomena.

Oh, OK. Thanks for clarifying that it was the simile in particular you were referring to. I guess that could be a reasonably common simile. And, besides, Ajahn Amaro, at least, seems to have read widely (presumably also Ajahn Pasanno, but I'm less familiar with his teaching).

vinasp wrote: SN 12.41 [ Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 578] "And what is the noble method that he has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom? Here, householder, the noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus:"When this exists, that comes to be: with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be] .... Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; ......... Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.".

Yes, that's what I was getting at above viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11448&p=173332#p173245 when I said that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta contains the essence of Dependent Origination, so it may not be so surprising that Kondañña's utterance was to do with arising-cessation.

Normally, one would think of the important thing about stream-entry was penetration of not-self, but that is not explicitly discussed in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, though of course it is implied by Dependent Origination.

just to chip in my nonsenseto my understanding Dependent Arising correlates to the Second Noble Truth and Dependent Cessation with the Third Noble Truth, See DN22 for an example, and to check.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

Cittasanto wrote:just to chip in my nonsenseto my understanding Dependent Arising correlates to the Second Noble Truth and Dependent Cessation with the Third Noble Truth, See DN22 for an example, and to check.

On the basis of the Buddha’s own statements, we can see a very close relationship between the Four Noble Truths and dependent origination. What is it that the Four Noble Truths and dependent origination have in common? The principle that both have in common is the principle of causality - the law of cause and effect, of action and consequence. In one of our earlier lectures we have mentioned that the Four Noble Truths are divided into two groups. The first two - suffering and the causes of suffering, and the last two - the end of suffering and the path to the end of suffering. In both of these groups, it is the law of cause and effect that governs the relationship between the two. In other words, suffering is the effect of the cause of suffering; and similarly, the end of suffering is the effect of the path to the end of suffering. Here too in regard to dependent origination, the fundamental principle at work is that of cause and effect. In dependent origination, we have a more detailed description of what actually takes place in the causal process.