Oh no you did'nt use first-order logic on me! You want to impress me, formalize this "Someone loves himself"? BTW I did not say you "need" to read Ecclesiastes, I simply suggested you should read it. I know what I am about to say will start another dead end debate but here goes, I do not think humans are animals at least not in the way you define the relationship beteween humans and animals. I will say this, it would probably be cool to have a Q & A session with you on various topics.

Wait I have a question for you (the evolutionist); do you think people like the woman that did this terrible thing to her own child or anyone who commits an inhumane act against another human, e.g., murderers and rapist are less evolved than you?

Oh no you did'nt use first-order logic on me! You want to impress me, formalize this "Someone loves himself"? BTW I did not say you "need" to read Ecclesiastes, I simply suggested you should read it. I know what I am about to say will start another dead end debate but here goes, I do not think humans are animals at least not in the way you define the relationship beteween humans and animals. I will say this, it would probably be cool to have a Q & A session with you on various topics.

Wait I have a question for you (the evolutionist); do you think people like the woman that did this terrible thing to her own child or anyone who commits an inhumane act against another human, e.g., murderers and rapist are less evolved than you?

HM

I want to play... The "you should read..." statement is usually made by someone who thinks that the only reason I don't share their personal belief is because I don't have the information. Many times when a Christian says "You should read.." I already have... In fact, I have read many christian apologetics books recommended to me over the years, yet I have not had any Christian read any book I have recommended. I usually get the "No thanks, I believe the bible and if the book infers the bible isn't true, I'm not interested. "

I don't think the mother is less evolved, I think people who do horrific acts can have various reasons behind it. They could have been brought up in a horrible enviornment and learned the behavior or been mentally damaged by abuse as a child. I also think that with millions of people being born into this world, there will be genetic errors, causing some to be born without conscience, wired in such a way that they are predatory or just down right cruel. I think we will always have a certain percentage of our population this way.

I want to play... The "you should read..." statement is usually made by someone who thinks that the only reason I don't share their personal belief is because I don't have the information. Many times when a Christian says "You should read.." I already have... In fact, I have read many christian apologetics books recommended to me over the years, yet I have not had any Christian read any book I have recommended. I usually get the "No thanks, I believe the bible and if the book infers the bible isn't true, I'm not interested. "

I don't think the mother is less evolved, I think people who do horrific acts can have various reasons behind it. They could have been brought up in a horrible enviornment and learned the behavior or been mentally damaged by abuse as a child. I also think that with millions of people being born into this world, there will be genetic errors, causing some to be born without conscience, wired in such a way that they are predatory or just down right cruel. I think we will always have a certain percentage of our population this way.

As a christian I read Josh McDowel's Evidence that Demands a Verdict as well as the skeptics version The Jury is InI've also read his More Than a Carpenter

Lee Strobel's Case for Christ

Reasonable Faith by William Craig

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

There are several more but they all tend to run together over the years.

As far as books to recommend, I stopped doing that a couple years ago. First, they are rarely ever read and second, it's pointless if you aren't open minded. I only read them as a Christian because I was curious and probably had some questions that I wasn't getting very good answers on. Then, as an agnostic because I was concerned I may have made a mistake that I would pay for eternally and I wanted to be sure. Had someone recommended them to be when I was younger or "strong in the faith" , I would have also blown them off or read them with a bias that would allow me to discount the information quite easily. But if someone asks me how I went from being a very committed christian to a non believer, I point them to a book by Dan Barker called Losing Faith in Faith and suggest they read that, as he explains it much better than I do. I would also warn them that Barker writes with a chip on his shoulder in that book and pulls no punches which can be a turn off, but the general message is similar to my story.

I remember my brother, who is a very active christian and actually walks to walk saw that particular book on my coffee table a few years ago. He picked it up and read the back cover. He then tossed it back on the table and stated "Well, that books full of crap, he says miracles don't happen and I know they do". So someone like him reading that book would be a complete waste of time.

As a christian I read Josh McDowel's Evidence that Demands a Verdict as well as the skeptics version The Jury is InI've also read his More Than a Carpenter

Lee Strobel's Case for Christ

Reasonable Faith by William Craig

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

There are several more but they all tend to run together over the years.

As far as books to recommend, I stopped doing that a couple years ago. First, they are rarely ever read and second, it's pointless if you aren't open minded. I only read them as a Christian because I was curious and probably had some questions that I wasn't getting very good answers on. Then, as an agnostic because I was concerned I may have made a mistake that I would pay for eternally and I wanted to be sure. Had someone recommended them to be when I was younger or "strong in the faith" , I would have also blown them off or read them with a bias that would allow me to discount the information quite easily. But if someone asks me how I went from being a very committed christian to a non believer, I point them to a book by Dan Barker called Losing Faith in Faith and suggest they read that, as he explains it much better than I do. I would also warn them that Barker writes with a chip on his shoulder in that book and pulls no punches which can be a turn off, but the general message is similar to my story.

I remember my brother, who is a very active christian and actually walks to walk saw that particular book on my coffee table a few years ago. He picked it up and read the back cover. He then tossed it back on the table and stated "Well, that books full of crap, he says miracles don't happen and I know they do". So someone like him reading that book would be a complete waste of time.

I suppose when a believer has truly experienced the Holy Spirit in their life and that experience has truly changed their life in a wonderful way reading entire volumes on why God doesn't exist isn't helpful in anyway (so I'd agree with you). Believers are called to act and represent Christ while nonbelievers are not (that's the primary disconnect). Now, reading books authorred by aths & ags can be a great way to understand the opposing view, but for the believer that has experienced the risen Christ it won't give them a reason to turn from their faith. It's a unique position for those folks. I've known many folks that call themselves Christians, but never lived out their faith....never represented Christ....never shared with others. Later in life they walk away from their faith and tell others what a waste faith in Christ was. Faith in Christ is no easy business, if it was "everyone would do it". Some say, "it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a Christian". I respectfully disagree...our lives can easily be lived without Christ or any Christian influence. The vast majority in the world support the nonbelievers' perspective....it's quite easy to join the majority. It's much more challenging to have faith in Christ, but when you truly engage in your faith, when you truly surrender, when you truly experience Christ it makes all the difference. Then the books telling you you're foolish really don't offer anything more than a brief chuckle, but that doesn't mean they aren't worth reading. I learn a ton from aths and ags. They give me things to consider and usually help me grow my faith as I seek answers to their questions....it's a funny situation (at least for me).

Josh McDowell I haven't read.

I've read most of Strobel's books (haven't read his Easter book...thinks that's all I haven't read).I'm in the middle of "Reasonable Faith". Some of the mathematical proofs leave me a bit flat to be honest, but others parts are brilliant.I've read the majority of Paul Copan's books (I think I've missed 2).I've started "Mere Christianity", but was more engaged in "The Screwtape Letters".I've read the bible which includes the works by the world's greatest apologist Paul LOL.I've read numerous online articles.I've read others short apolgetic books as well (RC Sproul, Billy Graham, etc...)

To be honest, I've glossed numerous ath and ag books and read many, many online articles. I listen to online debates (Aths/Ags v Chrisitian) all the time. I watch the Atheist Experience online all the time (based out of Austin, TX) lead by Matt Dillahunty. I've read David Hume. I watch Ath and Ag lectures. Personally I'd rather deep dive into a volume that will expand my faith, but get the cliffs notes version on the other or the 1-2 hour lecture or 30 minute online article that summarizes.

I want to play... The "you should read..." statement is usually made by someone who thinks that the only reason I don't share their personal belief is because I don't have the information. Many times when a Christian says "You should read.." I already have... In fact, I have read many christian apologetics books recommended to me over the years, yet I have not had any Christian read any book I have recommended. I usually get the "No thanks, I believe the bible and if the book infers the bible isn't true, I'm not interested. "

I don't think the mother is less evolved, I think people who do horrific acts can have various reasons behind it. They could have been brought up in a horrible enviornment and learned the behavior or been mentally damaged by abuse as a child. I also think that with millions of people being born into this world, there will be genetic errors, causing some to be born without conscience, wired in such a way that they are predatory or just down right cruel. I think we will always have a certain percentage of our population this way.

You are correct I should have asked if he had read Ecclesiastes before suggesting he should read it, so no argument there. I'm not the type of person to debate something and not be open to hear or read my opposition's point of view and where it originated, that is only fair. The topic of the thread was, "if God exist and how/why God allowed this to happen". I referenced verses in the Bible that could be used to explain how/why a person would act inhumanely toward another person. BTW I don't think the woman is less evolved either, I think what you call a "horrible environment or mentally damaged or genetic errors" are the result of being cursed by sin. I agree with you that any one of those issues you cited could cause of the behavior but I believe that sin leads to the behavior. I also think these verses in the bible would support and justify the comment you made that,  some to be born without conscience, wired in such a way that they are predatory or just downright cruel. I think we will always have a certain percentage of our population this way."

Wait I have a question for you (the evolutionist); do you think people like the woman that did this terrible thing to her own child or anyone who commits an inhumane act against another human, e.g., murderers and rapist are less evolved than you?

HM

No, I do not think the woman under discussion or anyone else that does things I consider abhorrent are "less evolved." But a more specific answer depends on what we mean by 'more' or 'less' evolved.

A common interpretation implies that there is directionality or inherent progress to evolution; that there is some end-goal or proper evolved form we are trying to reach, and those of us "more evolved" are closer to that form. But this is false. If evolutionary pressures are strong enough we may become simpler life forms again; there is nothing "necessary" about our evolutionary path, nor is there any optimal form at the end of the line that evolution is moving toward. We evolve a proper fit to ecological niches, and that is it. In this sense there is no meaning in saying any of us is "more evolved" than someone else, the Archaea at the bottom of the ocean, or anything really.

If by 'more evolved' you simply mean more complex (genetically speaking), then I am still not more evolved than the woman; we derive from the same pool of genes. She isn't from some isolated set of breeding such that we don't share genes, and neither am I. So even in this sense I fail to be more evolved than her.

In short, if I use evolutionary thinking at all to understand this woman's behavior, it will not involve judgments of her being 'more' or 'less' evolved. These don't make sense given a proper understanding of evolution.

Oh no you did'nt use first-order logic on me! You want to impress me, formalize this "Someone loves himself"? BTW I did not say you "need" to read Ecclesiastes, I simply suggested you should read it. I know what I am about to say will start another dead end debate but here goes, I do not think humans are animals at least not in the way you define the relationship beteween humans and animals. I will say this, it would probably be cool to have a Q & A session with you on various topics.

HM

Well, I'd like to know why you disagree, not just that you do. Regarding our being human organisms (animals), I think there is little room for disagreement. Every time you look in the mirror, there is a thing looking back at you. This thing is a human organism. The dated fossils lay bare its evolutionary history, the fact that it derives from the same species apes derive from. Among other irrefutable facts, its genome displays significant similarities with such apes, further evincing their shared heritage.

So, right where you are now, is a human organism that evolved from a common ancestor with apes. When you are sitting in your chair and thinking, there is a human organism right there thinking with its brain as well. It seems an awful lot like all of the properties of the animal are properties of yours as well: you are a certain number of years old just like the animal, you occupy the exact same spatiotemporal boundaries as the animal, you have a brain that enables you to think just like the animal does, you jump when fire burns you just like the animal does, and so on. Well, if it walks like an animal, talks like an animal, and literally has all the same properties of an animal, then my guess is it is an animal.

What else would you say we were, if not the animals we see in the mirror? How would you explain our relation to these animals?

You are correct I should have asked if he had read Ecclesiastes before suggesting he should read it, so no argument there. I'm not the type of person to debate something and not be open to hear or read my opposition's point of view and where it originated, that is only fair. The topic of the thread was, "if God exist and how/why God allowed this to happen". I referenced verses in the Bible that could be used to explain how/why a person would act inhumanely toward another person. BTW I don't think the woman is less evolved either, I think what you call a "horrible environment or mentally damaged or genetic errors" are the result of being cursed by sin. I agree with you that any one of those issues you cited could cause of the behavior but I believe that sin leads to the behavior. I also think these verses in the bible would support and justify the comment you made that,  some to be born without conscience, wired in such a way that they are predatory or just downright cruel. I think we will always have a certain percentage of our population this way."

Psalm 58:3, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Isaiah 64:6 and Jeremiah 17:9

HM

It's cool that you can make a connection between your belief, and the book of your belief and what you observe in our actions. I simply do not see the need to add a supernatural god cause into the mix to come to the conclusion some people are born bad or are conditioned to be bad.

The concept of original sin, in my opinion is faulty. That an alleged righteous god/parent would hold me accountable for something that happened "6000" years ago, something he KNEW would happen a trillion years before it occured strikes me as a faulty system if "righteous" and "fair" are part of your criteria...

Well, I'd like to know why you disagree, not just that you do. Regarding our being human organisms (animals), I think there is little room for disagreement.

Well, we have a larger brain with respect to our individual body size, we are capable of reasoning, spoken & written language, introspection, problem solving and culture. Animals do not possess these attributes as they are creatures of instinct. Also I don't think humans can reproduce with animals (Chimps). Some of humans act like animals but are not the same species.

II Peter 2:9-13 one of the few places that God talks about the differences between how false teachers will perish like "...unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish."

Quote

What else would you say we were, if not the animals we see in the mirror? How would you explain our relation to these animals?

I see a man, a man made in the image of God:

Genesis 1:26 (ESV)26 Then God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

Animals do not have dominion over anything atleast not in the way that humans have dominion.

It's cool that you can make a connection between your belief, and the book of your belief and what you observe in our actions. I simply do not see the need to add a supernatural god cause into the mix to come to the conclusion some people are born bad or are conditioned to be bad.

The concept of original sin, in my opinion is faulty. That an alleged righteous god/parent would hold me accountable for something that happened "6000" years ago, something he KNEW would happen a trillion years before it occured strikes me as a faulty system if "righteous" and "fair" are part of your criteria...

Pot, Kettle brother; you draw the same connection with your belief and the many books of your belief and what you observe in our actions as I do. You see our existence from a different perspective that's it. You cannot disprove a creator (whom I call God, Jesus and Holy Spirit) and I cannot disprove how all this came into existencewhich you call evolution. There is one thing we can agree on, one thing we know without dispute and that is; we are both living on a planet that is perfectly situated in this time and space and is suitable for us to have life. Other than that we only have theories!

Pot, Kettle brother; you draw the same connection with your belief and the many books of your belief and what you observe in our actions as I do. You see our existence from a different perspective that's it. You cannot disprove a creator (whom I call God, Jesus and Holy Spirit) and I cannot disprove how all this came into existencewhich you call evolution. There is one thing we can agree on, one thing we know without dispute and that is; we are both living on a planet that is perfectly situated in this time and space and is suitable for us to have life. Other than that we only have theories!

HM

I try to go by the "what is more likely" philosophy, and in my personal opinion, having read the bible several times, I have to go with what the majority of scientists think happened, with the understanding that they have the option of changing their positions as new evidence is uncovered. I just don't think your average evangelist shares that same option.

Pot, Kettle brother; you draw the same connection with your belief and the many books of your belief and what you observe in our actions as I do. You see our existence from a different perspective that's it. You cannot disprove a creator (whom I call God, Jesus and Holy Spirit) and I cannot disprove how all this came into existencewhich you call evolution. There is one thing we can agree on, one thing we know without dispute and that is; we are both living on a planet that is perfectly situated in this time and space and is suitable for us to have life. Other than that we only have theories!

God doesnt control everything. He created us,and told us how to be happy and live long, and that ultimately all good people will meet him, while others will be damned for what they ve done with their existence.

I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people. What a vile fucking world. God, lol...

1) There is NO GOD - get over it2) The Mother and her boyfriend are genuine psychopaths3) Where the fuck is the Father?4) Contrary to popular belief - the world isn't JUST (although ironically it is psychologically more beneficial to believe in a JUST WORLD even though it is a false belief)