I can't say much about Craft books (because to be honest, I don't care about ancient books or where they came from, I'd rather hear it from the horse's mouth, and the fact that the Necronomicon is on the shelves of Coles Bookstore in Bible Country is proof enough to me that it's all bullocks) I would argue that whether or not the printed (or digital) version of any book, there is a universal energy you can tap into. Like my book. When someone reads it, whether it's the first copy or (oh heavens please) the millionth, the book itself may not have the energy in it, but you tap into the writer's state of mind, the world that he/she has created, the information that is out there and which is (like all information, written or forgotten) "pluckable" from the sky if one would only open their minds enough to see it and reach out to pluck it.

Crazy Healer LadyHealth and happiness to you!

The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

The way I see Magick and the world is this-
If you believe it has power then it does! If you believe the book has power, then you must heed it's warnings. If you think it's a load of bullsh*t then you don't gain anything of value from the book, but you can discuss it without consequence. It's not just books, but all of Magick.
You either believe the Necronomicon, able to summon up its spirits, conjure up its spells, and use its rituals, yet are bound to the rules in the book, or you don't and you can neither benefit from any of the spells contained within, yet you are not bound by the warnings and rules it percieves to use for the book.

Like I said, this is why I believe the Law was reworded to the Rede, becouse the Law was sealed without discussion to the book's contents. If anyone believes the Law, but doesn't heed its Law to never discuss the contents of the book, then the consequences could be dire. Now we can discuss the Rede, becouse it is the paraphrased Law, and therefore we can follow the Law, and discuss it, without actually discussing the contents of LIEBER AL VEL LEGIS (The Book of the Law).

I've chased rabbits again, haven't I? The point is:
WE give the Necronomicon its power. If we toss it aside as trash, then it is trash. But if we accept it, we must accept the Necronomicon along with its ban of never discussing it.

-Hytegia

"Water, water, everywhere,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, everywhere,
Nor any drop to drink."

Actually, WE as a whole do not Hytegia. It is a personal thing. If YOU believe it has power, then for YOU it does. If YOU decide that you are going to believe it, study it, use it whatever, then it is YOU who cannot break the rules it has set down.

Just because one person in a group of many has decided that they are going to learn/use something which may come with warnings and bans attached to it, does not mean that those warnings and bans are therefore attached to the rest of us.

Crowley lead a fascinating and strange life to be sure. But for many of us, his works mean nothing, and do not give us anything of value at all. That simply comes down to ones personal beliefs and "tastes" when it comes to the occult and what we are willing to work with/learn from.

On a side note - this is getting really interesting. If you do come up with something Davish, I would love to hear about it. The idea of being able to do that, even with the long winded and intricate process just fascinates me lol. Arcanum and I have been actually discussing that very same idea off and on for many years. The idea pops up once a blue moon and we get into discussing it again lol.

Sorry if I mistyped it. By WE I meant everyone, and the inverse is also true.
I meant WE to imply mortals that practice Magick. But also WE choose not to give it power.
I like to refer to a group as WE, even though the group is divided on the matter...

Case in Point: It was lost in translation. Don't get so worked up over it. Geez.

So WE, as mortals, choose to give an object power, or toss it aside.

"Water, water, everywhere,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, everywhere,
Nor any drop to drink."

Hytegia wrote:Sorry if I mistyped it. By WE I meant everyone, and the inverse is also true.
I meant WE to imply mortals that practice Magick. But also WE choose not to give it power.
I like to refer to a group as WE, even though the group is divided on the matter...

Case in Point: It was lost in translation. Don't get so worked up over it. Geez.

So WE, as mortals, choose to give an object power, or toss it aside.

I understand perfectly what it is you were trying to get across, I was simply pointing out the other side of the thought. As a group something can be given power, but also as an individual, without consequence or impact on the whole. That is the point I was trying to make. I do not see how that could be construed as being worked up over it.

I'm sorry. There's some negative buildup in my house... Dad is dangerously close to rediscovering my things that I saved from his book burning and-
My bad. I let tension in my home drag onto the internet- something I told myself that I would never do. I guess I misconstrued your caps (YOU) as something of a dogfight nature, and went into defencive mode.

I'm sorry.

"Water, water, everywhere,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, everywhere,
Nor any drop to drink."

Here's the simple fact of the matter... belief does convey power, however, just because some people believe in a thing doesn't mean all do, nor does it mean that the limited belief of a few conveys power and/or restrictions for all. If you want to get really philosophical, I could get into deity creation, but that would basically be a huge post in of itself, so let's try a few simpler examples.

1) If you have a group of 100 people who believe that some "book of magick" has power, then for them, there is a chance, however small, that what is in that book will work to some degree part of the time. However, if someone from another group of individuals doesn't believe said book has power, then for them it will not work.

To take this further, if another group of 1000 people believe in another "book of magick", then chances are, those people practices will be more effective, as a general rule, using their book, but using the first groups would likely flop.

2) Just because there is belief, that doesn't necessarily imply function or power. While yes, belief is necessary, so are mechanics, laws, metaphysics as a whole. So, if you have a guide that says chanting "ah elfin todd, sinn dinn dew...." etc... will cause a fog to rise and the dragon of the earth to come forth to your summons, that doesn't mean it will work, no matter how strongly you believe, unless that chant happens to have some kind of metaphysical tie to said dragon.

This is a lot like starting a fire. You can read that pouring gasoline on wood makes it more combustible, however that doesn't mean that doing so will start a raging conflagration. You still need ignition. Just because what you read said adding gasoline makes it burn even when wet doesn't mean you still don't have to follow the simple law of physics that states that you must have a form of heat ignition to actually start a fire, be that a match, lighter, spark, magnifying glass and sunlight or whatever.

That holds true for magick as well. Feel free to try and effect someone at a distance with magick but having no link. There's a very large chance you'll fail. This is why some of my ancestors did some rather interesting things with coins, jewels and charms (those ancestors being the Romani peoples). They understood that tying the magick to an item and giving it to someone was more effective. Or taking the coins from someone gave them a link back to that person. Maybe not the most "white light and fluffy bunny" example, but it does make a point

In the end, belief is important, just as is will, but you still need a foundation to build from. There are certain standard "laws" between most magical systems, like the Law of Contagion, the Law of Sympathy, etc. They may be called different things, but they are there throughout for a simple reason, they are truths and knowing them makes you effective.

The necronomicon has long been known to serious occultists as a fake and has often been accredited to Faust, though I doubt that, except that maybe some of his unpublished writings were included here and there. There very well may have originally been a Necronomicon that was legitimate, say 800 - 1200 years ago (another occultist legend), but that legendary book has absolutely NOTHING to do with the crap fiction book you can pick up at your local bookstore.

And as an aside, Crazy Healer is right, play nice, especially with the moderators. We tend to become moderators for a few different reasons, mostly having to do with experience and knowledge/skill... as well as being responsible. Some of us have been doing this since before you were born or since you were a child, also a good thing to remember.

Ofcourse, there's some laws... But I know what made those laws in the first place.
It's in my book, which I'm still working on minorly when I'm not hiding all my files and locking them on a thumbdrive I keep hidden away from prying fingers-

Anyhow, I would like to reitterate that Belief IS the fuel, but the spark isn't some complex set of laws. The SPARK of all Magick comes from within. The Metaphysical isn't like the physical (although it's effected by the physical realm plenty). I've seen many things that defied a few metaphysical "laws" that make up the Unseen world as a whole, and I have felt powers that defined all logical reason or concept.
I was talking to a particular witch I had hooked up with at Church Camp (ah! the irony! Her parents had sent her there to straighten her up) and we decided to sneak out one night and go swimming in the lake. Now she told me to match close, and not to blink. I thought nothing of it at the time, but she ran at the water, and physically took 5 steps out (on the water) before stumbling and coming to a splashing ending a good distance out.
This true story is just one of the several (5, to be exact) stories where I had encountered something DEFYING what I had once called Reality, and went beyond my ability to comprehend how she did it. I was stunned so much that she had time to swim back to the shore, and laugh at my face (she said I looked constipated). But I was simply in shock of how- well, how can someone run on water?!
My first words, to be exact, were "What the f*ck?"
She laughed again, and gave me an almost riddle-like answer.

"Don't think so much. Thinking comes from the mind, and the mind is physical. Stop wondering how it's done, and do it... Then you can do what you want!"

Needless to say, I had no freaking clue what she was talking about, and when I tried it I simply faceplanted into some mud along the shoreline. I thought about it so many times (and tried with many failed asttempts in our pool outback) that I finally came upon the answer one day:
It worked because, simply, she made it work. It's the only answer I could fabricate in my mind! Did she simply believe it would work, and it did? Certainly I would have felt the magick radiating off of her if she was carrying some ancient artifact that could unlock the power over water (not to mention that she couldn't fit it in that standard churchcamp 1-piece), so that couldn't be the answer. She had a significant presence, but it wasn't so much that it suggested that she pled power and made the water solid beneath her feet, or any other kind of spell that could do that. I didn't hear any spirits around there talking or casting their own presences to solidify the water or to carry her feet (well, of hers. There's always spirits). And, I don't recall her calling upon the Spirit of the Lake for any grantings, or invoking it's name to allow her to pass like it was stone.
So, that's the only answer I could come to. It worked simply becouse she made it work? But how did she make it work? She Believed she could do it. And not some poppycock "I CAN DO IT" belief either. I think that she made her own Reality, by raw and unfurdled belief. I think she had not a single doubt in her mind that she could run on that water untill she reached the other side of the lake. I think that she could have sprinted across my pool if she wished to.

That, or she's a Changeling of some kind with absolutely no identifying marks of one, and is simply a Spirit imprisoned within a mortal vessel for kicks, or a punishment.

DAMMIT! I thought there was a point to this whole thing!
Wait. Now I remember:
The point of the matter is that Laws and Rules are a fabrication of the mind and (although helpful if followed) should be treated as such. Yes, it helps if you know them and use them, but if you never bother with such ridden concepts that the mind attempts to put on the world then you might have the same success rate. Even -I- think that you need some representation of a target (in this case, Target meaning someone to be effected. Not an enemy. It could simply be negative energies) to effectively empower or whatever you want to do. I follow Metaphysical laws because I believe they will work bettewr aswell, despite my enlightenment otherwise.
And (besides having some success with the Necronomicon's summonings) I believe that the Necronomicon can be used for reference and summoning, even if you think it's just some trash. It's still an intresting read and has the power you want it to have. I believe that the Necronomicon works- but I must then follow its ban on talking about it's contents.

Wow, this post (and this thread) has grown much more than I expected.

"Water, water, everywhere,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, everywhere,
Nor any drop to drink."

Kiddo, you started the Laws thing by quoting Crowley. As far as rules and laws go, metaphysical/magickal/psi or whatever, it's still NATURAL and Nature has certain rules and limitations. Just because you see something that defies the rules and laws as you've learned them doesn't mean that there aren't still guiding forces or rules behind them. I've seen some crazy stuff over the years and done some myself, both magickally and what others would consider Magick, though it was a little different with my studies in Internal Martial Arts. Chi/Ki is energy and can be harnessed, but there are still rules and guides in how to use it and it can accomplish some startling physical things, such as walking over water, or suspended rice paper. Or in my styles, hitting a LOT harder than should be possible, or projecting the hit well beyond where you stuck, or protecting your body from damage, or healing your body.

As far as belief goes, belief is NOT the fuel, it is a component. Without belief, your subconscious mind will not usually allow the energies to be directed properly (or at all), so it is necessary. However, the actual fuel is energy, in whatever form. Without energy, nothing CAN happen. Belief, Will, Energy are the 3 real cornerstones of magick. You can do everything "right", but without having a decent foundation with those items, you aren't likely to get a real result unless the universal vending machine decides to kick out a "free soda" for you, so to speak.

I will tell you the same thing I tell all young/new witches/occultists/magickians... take everything with a grain of salt, study multiple sources of the same general information, use some intuition and experience the differences for yourself. There are some items that hold true through all systems and practices, those should be acknowledged, but there are also a lot of differences. Everyone has their own perspective and this flavors their given practice. However, just because it's the "flavor" that they like doesn't make it the right one, or even a valid one, for anyone else. Hence the "grain of salt" and the "multiple sources" and "experience".

Also, even though Bonewitts makes some good points about RPG and Fantasy and how it can tie into Magick, especially if you mix in some Jungian psychology and archetypal theory, Metaphysical practices aren't like they are in most fiction books and it takes a long time and lot of practice and study to really come to grips with them.

I know... And this goes into what I've said to many people before-
The problem with Paganism is that, although we're untied by the search for something more - a unification with the gods, goddesses, spirits, and nature in general - it is this ideal that also divides us. The fact that we believe in different things will make an eternal internal friction. We all have learned to accept each other's ideals, and go with what our heart says, but still we can't deny the differences...

It's not our simmilarities that unite us under one roof, but our differences. For we are all different notes singing the same song, and creating a harmony within the universe that even the most foolish could hear.
-Spiritual Proverb, given to me by my Guardian

Blessed Be

"Water, water, everywhere,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, everywhere,
Nor any drop to drink."

Well, that was a valid statement, we do all have our own points of view/flavors/idiosyncrasies... but one thing to always remember is that just because you have a belief or practice does not make it RIGHT for everyone, just for you. Shamanism teaches that quite well when you look at how they train other shamans and the variations in practice even between students with the same teachers.

One thing that pagans are supposed to be good at, and as a rule usually are, is not shoving their beliefs and practices down other people's throats. That's one of the things that draws people to pagan faiths... we are, as a rule, open and accepting.

runewulf wrote:Shamanism teaches that quite well when you look at how they train other shamans and the variations in practice even between students with the same teachers.

CHL Steps in!
So true. Each moment is individual. There is no lesson plan. And while one student may get attacked by a condor or eagle to get a certain message, another might have a wonderful night with a lady stranger to get that same lesson. And between all of them, it is understood how what looks like an arrow to one person in someone's back may look like a gunshot wound to another, yet as long as you can get the basic message (which will have variations for each person looking), it is true.

Note: I didn't realize that the page that was linked is actually a DOWNLOAD site where you can READ the Necronomicon. Very cool. Glad I don't have to fork out the $40.

Crazy Healer LadyHealth and happiness to you!

The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

Unless you're a Faust fan, you're not missing much. I think I paid $4.00 for it back in the very early 90s, lol... and thought I seriously overpaid even then

Now if you like Faust and take it as something of the same general style and genre, it can be a fun read. It's kinda like the 21 Lessons of Merlyn... ignore the so called "teaching" and read it as a fantasy story and it's quite good