CapnJoe wrote:A sorry end to a sorry mess. Even though the leader of our theme camp wants a list of people who have no tickets to give to BM LLC, and they are hinting that tickets might be given out to camps that need them. Why did it have to come to this! I'm just not as excited about going this year because of this FIASCO! How could people that have ran BM for 25 years been so stupid?

This - that heads of theme camps are "making lists for the LLC" - and I have heard it several times just today, lends some serious credibility to the story.

Next month, The History Channel will reveal how the open sale might have been cancelled because of exoterrestrials.

Having said that, I hope they do give camps priority. Individual people aren't what make Black Rock City light up at night. That's groups of people, combining ideas and resources and sharing labor, bringing all of that shit to the playa and building it for everybody's amusement. Making sure it stays working, that nobody gets hurt fucking with with, solving problems nobody wants to deal with in the middle of a dust storm. That's what it takes.

Right now I'm thinking about Apokalyptica. When I was camped near them, they with all their chaos and noise and mess and art were WAY MORE INTERESTING than the weekender who pitched his tent next to our generator and left trash bags behind, or the couple next to us with their Che Guevara fetish and acid meltdown. I'm not that interesting either. So I got some friends and made a theme camp. We tried not being a camp one year, and it sucked, so let me just say it's worth it. Of course, you have to be able to get along with people.

Comfort & Joy, Ashram Galactica, Shady Asylum, the Temple... way more interesting than my wife and I riding around naked on our bikes admiring your costume.

I think the rest of the post explains how I feel & if you would have included the tiny text in your quote you would have seen that it was somewhat tongue & cheek. But if you read two words & had a knee jerk reaction about the whole content of the post I can understand how you failed to comprehend the intent & tone of the post.

Do you feel that it’s fair to lump all first time attendees in to the "worthless non-contributor" group? If so then Screw You Too (I'm really kidding now).I have seen a lot of Burgin posts from some very enthusiastic people that want to do whatever they can to participate in their first year. So why bag on them & snuff their spirit?

In your wildest dreams you can not imagine the marvelous SURPRISES that await YOU.

(well, seeing as we dont know which sources either of us are referring to, i guess it doesnt matter much)

Haha, very funny. True, its an unconfirmed rumor (but fits with what was insinuated in the last JRS). Honestly, I wouldn't put it past them given that nepotism is at the heart of this event. I could definitely see them finding some method to tilt tickets towards most-favored theme camps and art projects.... Of course its all speculation for now...

I thought you insinuate things about other people, not about yourself...

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

alt12 wrote:Haha, very funny. True, its an unconfirmed rumor (but fits with what was insinuated in the last JRS). Honestly, I wouldn't put it past them given that nepotism is at the heart of this event. I could definitely see them finding some method to tilt tickets towards most-favored theme camps and art projects.... Of course its all speculation for now...

I thought you insinuate things about other people, not about yourself...

Perhaps imply would have been a better word choice. The point stands, they have hinted that they are looking at ways to ameliorate the loss of theme camps....

Mirrian Webster:in·sin·u·ate/inˈsinyo͞oˌāt/Verb: To impart or suggest in an artful or indirect way

Actually this partial solution was immediatley clear to me from the onset of this cluster fuck. Although the technique of distributing the remaining tickets to theme camps is a heavy-handed solution, it may well be the only solution available at this point to make sure the event doesn't become a bunch of newbies wondering why Burning Man is so lame this year.

Judging from the reactions to this, I still don't think many have come to terms yet with the reality of the situation our community faces. Here's the rub: if the event is mostly newbies and the vast majority of the established camps do not attend, we will not have the good Burning Man this year. You can call the established community nepotic or whatever if it makes you feel good, but it doesn't take much imagination to realize the incredibly bad impact of 40,000 newbies while 70% of the established camps are gone.

I did. Only 250 + posts.I get that a lot of camps are hurting really bad because of the outright lack of tickets. One of the camps in my village only has ¼ the tickets they need. We are looking everywhere we can to find them some with no luck.But my point is that I am sick of every "virgin" being labeled as a non-contributing parasite. I think everyone veteran and virgin alike had the same odds of getting a ticket. It is really a bad situation for everyone. I’m guessing that there are many many virgins that didn’t get tickets too, but I don’t see them blaming veterans for their bad luck or calling to exclude people from the event.I hope there are still tickets to be had at face value & the situation with the camps is not as bad as it seems but we just don’t know that yet. But blaming groups of people for the problem is just wrong and not accurate. I’m starting to wonder if I still want to go considering all the hate & anxiety surrounding the ticket fiasco.

In your wildest dreams you can not imagine the marvelous SURPRISES that await YOU.

I don't think it's a bad idea. Theme camps and large projects need their dues and committed members early. I as a single camper/ artist have no worries about finding a single ticket in the secondary market later if I decide to go, but I have the luxury of being tentative because my plans only affect me.

"It's impossible." said pride.
"It's risky." said experience.
"It's pointless." said reason.
"Give it a try." whispered the heart.

domitron wrote:Actually this partial solution was immediatley clear to me from the onset of this cluster fuck. Although the technique of distributing the remaining tickets to theme camps is a heavy-handed solution, it may well be the only solution available at this point to make sure the event doesn't become a bunch of newbies wondering why Burning Man is so lame this year.

Judging from the reactions to this, I still don't think many have come to terms yet with the reality of the situation our community faces. Here's the rub: if the event is mostly newbies and the vast majority of the established camps do not attend, we will not have the good Burning Man this year. You can call the established community nepotic or whatever if it makes you feel good, but it doesn't take much imagination to realize the incredibly bad impact of 40,000 newbies while 70% of the established camps are gone.

Again, a reduction in theme camps does not necessarily = a lame Burning Man, only a different Burning Man. Which, quite frankly, I'm all for. Handing out tickets to established camps is merely a way to ensure things do not change from year to year. I'm OK with the same camps out there year after year if it's an organic development, but I'm not OK with an officially sanctioned effort to ensure stasis.

And I don't have a ticket. Ha, just thought of something, we should all update our sigs with our ticket status.

This year's ticketing has been a disgrace. To change it up again and cancel the 10,000 ticket sale would be the perfect ending for this charade, and it would probably make for a better burn, hard to admit.

domitron wrote:Actually this partial solution was immediatley clear to me from the onset of this cluster fuck. Although the technique of distributing the remaining tickets to theme camps is a heavy-handed solution, it may well be the only solution available at this point to make sure the event doesn't become a bunch of newbies wondering why Burning Man is so lame this year.

Judging from the reactions to this, I still don't think many have come to terms yet with the reality of the situation our community faces. Here's the rub: if the event is mostly newbies and the vast majority of the established camps do not attend, we will not have the good Burning Man this year. You can call the established community nepotic or whatever if it makes you feel good, but it doesn't take much imagination to realize the incredibly bad impact of 40,000 newbies while 70% of the established camps are gone.

I know that people are basing all their math on the number of tickets that their camps got but how do we know that the "newbies" faired any better? Doesn’t it seem strange considering the odds are the same for everyone that the "Newbies" got an estimated 70% of the tickets? Maybe they only got 1/4 - 1/3 of the tickets they needed too? I think there is no way of knowing this until its way too late. But the math just doesn't make sense unless fewer veterans put in for tickets than newbies. While that is entirely possible that would have to be a huge number of Newbies. Just think that every year thousands of veterans are created that want to continue going. I think there has to be a lot of tickets still in the hands of burners & scalpers that have yet to find a home. Let’s hope the majority are with burners that will let them go for face value.

In your wildest dreams you can not imagine the marvelous SURPRISES that await YOU.

domitron wrote:Actually this partial solution was immediatley clear to me from the onset of this cluster fuck. Although the technique of distributing the remaining tickets to theme camps is a heavy-handed solution, it may well be the only solution available at this point to make sure the event doesn't become a bunch of newbies wondering why Burning Man is so lame this year.

Judging from the reactions to this, I still don't think many have come to terms yet with the reality of the situation our community faces. Here's the rub: if the event is mostly newbies and the vast majority of the established camps do not attend, we will not have the good Burning Man this year. You can call the established community nepotic or whatever if it makes you feel good, but it doesn't take much imagination to realize the incredibly bad impact of 40,000 newbies while 70% of the established camps are gone.

I know that people are basing all their math on the number of tickets that their camps got but how do we know that the "newbies" faired any better? Doesn’t it seem strange considering the odds are the same for everyone that the "Newbies" got an estimated 70% of the tickets? Maybe they only got 1/4 - 1/3 of the tickets they needed too? I think there is no way of knowing this until its way too late. But the math just doesn't make sense unless fewer veterans put in for tickets than newbies. While that is entirely possible that would have to be a huge number of Newbies. Just think that every year thousands of veterans are created that want to continue going. I think there has to be a lot of tickets still in the hands of burners & scalpers that have yet to find a home. Let’s hope the majority are with burners that will let them go for face value.

Those are good points. There is not enough information to know really know where the tickets all went. I think my post was more about my _fears_ than any known reality (fears shared by many I should add). But I'm with you in hoping the majority of the tickets are with the burners that will let them go for face value. Incidentally I don't want to put a bad face on virgins. New blood is essential to the community just as the veterans' contributions are. It's just that the event will suffer if the balance is heavily tipped either direction, be that toward newbies or veterans (although I personally think the negative impact would probably be felt sooner given too many newbies on the scene and in the coming years if we stop seeing newbies).

FlyingMonkey wrote:I know that people are basing all their math on the number of tickets that their camps got but how do we know that the "newbies" faired any better? Doesn’t it seem strange considering the odds are the same for everyone that the "Newbies" got an estimated 70% of the tickets? Maybe they only got 1/4 - 1/3 of the tickets they needed too? I think there is no way of knowing this until its way too late. But the math just doesn't make sense unless fewer veterans put in for tickets than newbies. While that is entirely possible that would have to be a huge number of Newbies. Just think that every year thousands of veterans are created that want to continue going. I think there has to be a lot of tickets still in the hands of burners & scalpers that have yet to find a home. Let’s hope the majority are with burners that will let them go for face value.

That's exactly the point. In order to for newbies to get 70% of the tickets there would have to be roughly 93000 newbies wanting tickets (that's individuals, not multiple orders). That is what leads me to believe that the system was gamed, and gamed badly. You can argue the numbers and percentages, but they are quite good for rough order of magnitude calculations.

FlyingMonkey wrote:I know that people are basing all their math on the number of tickets that their camps got but how do we know that the "newbies" faired any better? Doesn’t it seem strange considering the odds are the same for everyone that the "Newbies" got an estimated 70% of the tickets? Maybe they only got 1/4 - 1/3 of the tickets they needed too? I think there is no way of knowing this until its way too late. But the math just doesn't make sense unless fewer veterans put in for tickets than newbies. While that is entirely possible that would have to be a huge number of Newbies. Just think that every year thousands of veterans are created that want to continue going. I think there has to be a lot of tickets still in the hands of burners & scalpers that have yet to find a home. Let’s hope the majority are with burners that will let them go for face value.

That's exactly the point. In order to for newbies to get 70% of the tickets there would have to be roughly 93000 newbies wanting tickets (that's individuals, not multiple orders). That is what leads me to believe that the system was gamed, and gamed badly. You can argue the numbers and percentages, but they are quite good for rough order of magnitude calculations.

This situation is not caused by newbies.

I tend to agree, also for these reasons:

* I think newbies are slightly less likely to be aggressive (i.e. ordering 2 tickets when they only need 1) because many of them were not . . . immersed in the last year's atmosphere of hysteria after the ticket sellout, even if they heard/read about it . . . whereas seasoned Burners have figuratively put spiked track shoes shoes on and nailed starting blocks into place, by comparison.* Virgins are more anxious overall about undertaking the experience in the first place, favoring conservative behavior more than excessive behavior.* Virgins are less likely to over-order "just in case" (because they are less likely to be acquainted with another Burner, whereas almost anyone who's Burned before is acquainted with and/or deeply invested with another Burner making it to the Burn).

lemur wrote:i was being snarky but also trying to make the person understand that you had invested a lot of stuff into your camp.. !

Correct.

Another thing to consider is that camps are expected to have their shit set up and ready by Monday or Tuesday, which is why they try to apply for early entry. (We never have.) Individuals showing up on Wednesday of the Burn offering to help are certainly appreciated, but, they won't get the airport--that's a camp---or a massive art structure built.

But, I'm still not certain that it's the best idea. It would sure as hell thin the ranks if the only way you could get a ticket was to agree to PARTICIPATE in something.

"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

FlyingMonkey wrote:But my point is that I am sick of every "virgin" being labeled as a non-contributing parasite..

I don't think very many people are actually labeling them as such. Perhaps, we can all agree, though, that "virgin" is a misapplied word for what we all really mean, which is "spectator."

In the past, advice has been given that on your virgin burn, you have no idea what to expect yet so you should make sure you've got your shit covered, read the survival guide, and then just go out there and have fun. I think the image of 40,000 people just wandering around at night where awesome things might have been is what scares people the most. What happens if it rains, or there's a dust storm for two days, or too many new people dump their trash in the toilets and JotS or whoever pulls the contract? Then the actual event itself is in jeopardy.

Every virgin we've ever had in our camp, always, was fucking awesome and worked as hard as any of the veterans. If 30,000 virgins can build the Black Rock City that we know and love, yay! 30,000 ticket-holding spectators, on the other hand, is a Creed concert.

"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

I find it pretty ironic that some of you conclude that "birgin" is an abused term, while at the same time you have no problem tossing around the word "spectator" as if it had some objective meaning. Let me ask you something:

If these "spectators" are such a menace, who do we cut?

Is someone still a "spectator" because they only brought shit for their own camp? Sure that dude hauled in all the camp's tent infrastructure on their trailer. They really pulled their weight for the camp! But who else benefited besides the camp members?

If "participation" means you need to affect others outside your camp, what if they brought a bottle of vodka for their public bar, are they now "contributors" and not "spectators"?

What about someone who shows up in their Honda and a tent, no camp, and yet does some cool belly dancing in some remote part of the playa for only a few people? Is that enough? Or does it, you know, have to affect more than a certain arbitrary number of people?

Are they theme camp participants? Is that it? Because we never had our camp elevated to "theme camp" status, but we had some neat shit that was open for others to participate in. Even a MV--one anybody could get on. We did try to do our best, but still not a theme camp. So we're out? Or no?

Is a participant someone who makes a MV only they can ride in? They did go through all that work, and it looks nice, but who else gets to ride it?

What about the people who have big speakers. Are you a "participant" because you chose to blare your crappy dubstep into the neighborhood? Certainly many people got to "participate" in your music.

What about the people who spent a lot of time on their own costumes, but not much else? A pretty sparklepony with a cool costume. Is that a spectator, or a participant?

Is it about what skills you brought to the playa? What if you're some raver burgin, but you're good at braiding peoples' hair. So you braid peoples' hair and they're pretty happy about that. You didn't bring anything but yourself and your handiwork. Does that meet the bar?

Or is it about giving away shit? Like some dude riding around giving darktards lights, is that guy really cutting it? He's giving away relatively cheap manufactured shit, and probably just doing it to meet girls, but hell, he gave away shit! Is he meeting the "participant" bar?

So what is the "standard" here?

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens