An Interview With Biographer Ann Seaman

April 3rd, 2007 at 9:22 pm

Ann Seaman is the author of America’s Most Hated Woman: The Life And Gruesome Death Of Madalyn Murray O’Hair, the story of America’s infamous atheist whose 1963 U.S. Supreme Court case ended school prayer. Madalyn’s Christian-baiting lawsuits spanned three decades bringing her fame and derision until her death at the hands of kidnappers in 1995.

Who was Madalyn Murray O’Hair?

She was the outspoken, profane atheist leader who was catapulted to notoriety when her 1963 US Supreme Court lawsuit removed forced prayer and Bible reading from the public schools of the nation. She went on to file scores of church-state separation lawsuits over the next 32 years while building her multi-million dollar American Atheists organization in Austin, Texas.

One of the things that struck me in reading your book was how much of her public life was filled with lies – lies about her family, her background, the organization’s finances, etc. In this era of Karl Rove, I don’t think she would last a week under the scrutiny of today’s conservative right. What were some of her deceptions, and do you agree that she could not get away with it today?

In the Army during World War II, Madalyn saw how information from the front was manipulated to present the face of war the Army wanted presented. She used that technique herself later to tell supporters about the persecution she was undergoing from the religious community, to get them to send more money. For example, she reported that her son Bill was barred from gym class and using the library because of her activism. In reality, she had requested that he be exempted from gym because of bullying, and his library privileges were suspended because of missing books and unpaid fines.Another example: in 1962, she reported that she’d had to sell furniture and valuables in June of 1960 to finance her lawsuit. In reality, she’d sold off items to finance a trip to Paris, from where she hoped to defect to the Soviet Union. Her lawsuit wasn’t conceived yet. And she always put forth that she had been married to a William Murray, had two sons by him, and was divorced from him, when actually her two sons had different fathers and both were born out of wedlock; she never married either of their fathers.

There are many other examples of her fashioning reality to suit her needs. She would surely not get away with the lie about the kids today, but I believe she would still be able to get away with a lot of untruth. Madalyn was very intelligent, and savvy about the media. Even back then, she would craft her manipulations in a way that made them defensible from almost any assault. If anyone went to the trouble to document a falsehood, she always had a number of comebacks and counter-attacks; her accusers were corrupt, biased, religious, jealous, greedy, crazy, incompetent, hostile, or disgruntled. If those didn’t work, she would simply accuse the person of distorting or lying, and try to marginalize him or her. It usually worked — a core of followers always decided to believe her over her accusers.

Madalyn was an incredibly complex person and could act in the most humane, compassionate manner at times and then quickly turn mean spirited and vicious. Did you come to any conclusions as to what, in her background, made her this way? Could she have been bi-polar?

Her hated son Bill later wondered if she was bi-polar (it was called manic-depressive in her day), and her parents talked more than once of institutionalizing her for mental illness. Old friends also point out that, in later life, she became a “brittle” diabetic. If she didn’t carefully regulate her insulin (which she didn’t – she was always forgetting to take it), it could result in wild blood-sugar spikes that could lead her to scream at people or write outrageous letters that later came back to haunt her. There was also evidence, from her medical records and her remains (the size of her skull, feet, and hands), that she had a pituitary disorder, acromegaly, which can result in a hormone imbalance. But it wasn’t all just physical. Everyone has a need for some control and power in their lives, but Madalyn’s appetite for it was voracious. She was so consistently controlling (she even had a dollhouse furnished eerily like her own home, and played with it until her death) that it can’t be accounted for by chemistry alone.

It seems that the lives of two of Madalyn’s children were consumed with Madalyn’s battles and Madalyn’s dreams, and they may have had much fuller lives if they had been able to break free. Also, her one son Bill, who’s currently a leader in the Christian Right, had a very difficult childhood. Would you tell us about their lives and your view of Madalyn as a mother?

Madalyn dearly loved her children; everyone close to her commented on it. She bent over backwards to help them, give them every advantage, and make them feel treasured. And they did; they knew how much she loved them. However, it seems that Madalyn’s love was conditional on her having influence over her loved ones; she couldn’t bear for them to differ from her in any deep way. After Bill became a Christian in his early 30s, Madalyn never spoke to him again. (Granted, he built his career as head of a conservative political action committee by setting himself against her and her atheist cause, but she had forgiven him other attempts to compete with and even vilify her in the past, because he was still an atheist. It was the Christianity that tore it for her; she couldn’t bear that he no longer shared her ideology.) Similarly, when Robin tried to build a relationship with her Christian father, the girl was pressured by accusations of betrayal and failing to love her family, until she gave in and cut off her father and beloved little half-sister. And Garth, the son who stuck by Madalyn and worked tirelessly in the atheist cause, was never able to break away and have a relationship with a woman. Both Robin and Garth followed Madalyn to the grave.

Briefly walk us through the murder and kidnapping of Madalyn and her two children. How close did it come to being an unsolved crime?

The three were kidnapped at gunpoint at the American Atheist headquarters in Austin, Texas on a Sunday afternoon. They were held for a month at a motel in San Antonio while $600,000 in gold coins was being purchased with money repatriated from an American Atheist account in New Zealand. During that month, the victims bonded to some extent with their three kidnappers, especially Garth. They all thought they were going to live once the ransom money was delivered. It didn’t turn out that way.The family simply vanished, and the Austin police didn’t seem too interested in jumping on the case. But neither did American Atheists’ officials file a missing persons report for their missing leaders. It was Bill, the estranged Christian son, who finally, a year after the disappearance, filed the request. Still, no progress was made — except by San Antonio Express-News reporter John MacCormack, who, along with private detective Tim Young, stubbornly dogged every lead and slowly cornered the cunning, brilliant murderer. After more than three years, MacCormack and Young’s work finally attracted the attention of the FBI, who took over the case. The O’Hairs had been missing more than five years by the time their charred, sawed-up bodies were finally unearthed from a shallow grave on a ranch in South Texas. Along with them in the grave was a black garbage bag containing a fourth head and a pair of hands. That’s another piece of the twisted, surprising story of the crimes that took the O’Hairs’ lives.

How did the kidnappers know Madalyn? What became of them?

The ringleader was a handsome, charming, well-spoken college educated man with a genius IQ, whom Madalyn hired as an office manager. David Waters was his name. She didn’t know that Waters had at least two murders under his belt, nor that he’d gotten his education while in prison. He recruited two men to help him with the kidnapping and extortion, and they ultimately helped him murder the family. One of those two men ended up on a Dallas County riverbank with no clothing, no head, and no hands — nothing to identify him, and he was a John Doe in the morgue until reporter John MacCormack uncovered his identity. The other stood trial for kidnapping and other crimes, but not murder, as, at the time of his trial, there were no bodies, witnesses, nor murder weapons. Still, he was convicted of several crimes and sent to prison for life. Waters himself, on the eve of his own trial, made a plea bargain and began serving 20 unparoled years in Leavenworth at the age of 54. He died suddenly two years later after a month-long bout with cancer.

What was Madalyn’s impact on America? Would it have happened without her?

I think the culture wars we’re experiencing today would have happened in some form without Madalyn, but nothing like the polarization that seems to be becoming ever more calcified with each passing day. Same-sex marriage, abortion, school prayer, evolution vs. creationism, school vouchers, faith-based initiatives, judicial activism, states’ rights and the role of the 14th Amendment, theocracy militias like Hamas, Al Qaida, and the Taliban — these issues were in their infancy when Madalyn came along. She pioneered all of them or their precursors. She put them on our radar. And in the process, she made a place for atheism and secularism in the mainstream, took the blows that gave them visibility and acceptance, and laid the groundwork for their vocal place in today’s cultural and social dialogue.

God is real!!!!!!!!!!! We can’t get by with sin……….He will repay all that do evil!!!!!!! Like Jesus told Paul……..It is hard to kick against the pricks!!!!

anonymous

She was possessed by the devil, and he lured her to death and hell after he made a complete fool of her.

anonymous

children and everybody should be allowed to pray anywhere……….I do! and noone can stop the power of prayer!!!!!!!!!!!!

anonymous

This country was founded on the basis of freedom of religion. The Founders knew the effects of forced worship and wanted a country where others did not have to endure it. It seems only reasonable to think that if a person does not want to worship in school, which attendance is required by law, that they should not have to. In addition, there are many well respected, long established, moral and decent lines of religion that are not Christian, and those members are Constitutionally protected from having to participate in prayer other than their own.

Bob

What is so puzzling about this whole puzzling matter, is how much did they co-operate with their captors? Waters, in fact, told the police that he stole the $70,000 as office manager because they put him up to it. The Austin police never did much about the crime, and he was on parole at that time.

Fry, the third kidnapper was, so I read, not present at the actual kidnapping. That would mean that two people had to kidnap three. That is hard to believe. Especially if they, as stated above “bonded” with their kidnappers, and were treated well. They would have to use the bathroom, they have to eat, they made calls back to the origanization, and Jon took trips, even by airplane, and one included picking up $500,000 in gold. (If the money was simply going to the kidnappers, why gold? That would seem more likely if O’Hair was planning to leave the country.)

According to what I read the jewler, who did not know Jon, or ask for ID as far as I read, but later identified him, said he was alone when he picked up the gold and asked for a police escort to his car. Obviously it would be simple to inform the police of this situation, so it seems.

So a great deal of this is very, very hard to understand. I would hope that more of this could be figured out.

Then there is always that nagging question, was Atheism an important aspect of the crime? I suppose it could happen to others, maybe anybody, of course. But the situation is incredibly strange, including the fact that most of the gold, about $400,000, vanished out of a locker supplied by Water’s girlfriend. The police later caught and convicted the juveniles involved.

anonymous

Those three anonymous comments scare me with their bigoted, hateful bible-bashing.

anonymous

All I know is that God exists, and if you don’t acknowledge Him you are going to end up badly. There is no prosperity, health, love or hapiness if you don’t have Jesus in your life. I come from a very traditional catholic country, and I’m a christian. I remember that back in highschool I was forced to attend religion class and even though there were certain believes I didn’t share i just took in what I thought would make me grow as a person and everything else I woul listen respectfully but not take in. There is no reason at all to shun God out of your life.

KM

RE: Anonymous comment about prayer…People are allowed to pray at school and whenever they want. They just aren’t forced into it. It isn’t organized or run by teachers. But if you want to pray anywhere, you ARE allowed. O’Hair only stopped people from being forced into it. Forcing people into praying will only make them disrespect religion more.

All the stuff about God and Jesus is opinion. The only power of prayer is in the mind. Jews prayed during the holocaust, didn’t they? So why would “God” help you if he didn’t help them? The power of religion is your mindset. If you believe it works, you’re going to see all the signs that it works and ignore the signs that it doesn’t.

Oh, and Earlene Anderson…it’s no good putting Anonymous and pretending you’re three different people if you put the same email address WITH YOUR NAME for each post. And they’re all posted around the same time. Not even good comments-you’re really ignorant- at least the other religious comment was logical and more tolerant.

Okay, now that I’ve gone off on a tangent…interesting interview. Makes me wonder what it would be like if I was forced to take religion classes and pray in school. Scary thought…Scarier yet that people hated someone who, while no saint, was only trying to protect the rights of non-christian individuals…

Gil

I am in the middle an ex-catholic and ex-christian but by no means an athiest. I believe that if we have no accountability and no higher power to answer to daily or in the after life that a lot of us, would be cutting off heads and stealing. I think most agressive people will come to the conclusion that they could fool the police, get away, plea bargain or lie to avoid big problems and on a bigger scale than today all hell would brake loose. I think Madalyn played by the sword and died by the sword. I think her captors only weighed the consequences of the laws of man, how else could you ever do anything like take a life and cut the body to pieces….. That’s just sick and not worried about if God is watching. How can we be the highest power in the universe? Just animal and then man????? I can’t believe that, religion has it’s flaws but so does this limited thinking.

black cristian

DID DAVID WATERS RAPE MADALYN O HAIR IN THE MOTELROOM DURING HER WHOLE MOUTH OF CAPTIVITY? BEFORE KILING HER AND HER FAMILY? DID SHE CRYOUT FOR GOD’S HELP?

black cristian

DID DAVID WATERS RAPE MADALYN O HAIR IN THE MOTELROOM DURING HER WHOLE MONTH OF CAPTIVITY? BEFORE KILLING HER AND HER FAMILY?DID SHE CRYOUT FOR GOD’S HELP? SORRY TO DOUBLE POST FELT I HAD TO MAKE CORRECTIONS.

anonymous

I just wanted to mention that I was in the same school and classroom with William Murray when this all started. He would leave the classroom during prayer. His mother would give him communist propaganda literature to hand out at school. Some kids threw eggs at their house. You never know where life will take you. William became an Evangelist, I worked with the Jackson Five and Diana Ross and ended up living two homes away from the skater Dorothy Hamill. Another kid from the Murray’s and my old neighborhood is now the CEO of IBM.

black cristian

I HAVE TO ADD I FEEL SORRY FOR WILLIAM MURRAY ABOUT THE LOSS OF HIS DAUGTER AND HIS BROTHER WHO WERE KILLED BECAUSE OF INSANE LOYALTY TO HIS MOTHER WHO REJECTED GOD AND WAS SO STUPIDLY SECRETIVE AND ARROGANT IN HER LIFE NOT TELLING HER OWN PEOPLE WHAT TO DO IF SHE AND HER FAMLIY IS MISSING. OTHER THAN TO KEEP WORKING. AND HER PEOPLE AT AMERICAN ATHEIST INSANE BLIND OBEDIANCE AND TO ME A POTENTIAL READER OF THIS BOOK LOOKS LIKE THEY DID NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR LEADER! WHO COULD BLAME THEM RUMOR IS SHE WAS MEAN TO HER OWN PEOPLE!

black cristian

ANONYMOUS YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT EVERY THING YOU SAID YOU NEVER KNOW WHERE LIFE WILL TAKE YOU. YOU SAW THE STUFF SHE PUT HER SON WILLIAM MURRAY THRU FIRST HAND.ALL YEARS BEFORE I WAS EVEN BORN! SHE GAVE HER POOR SONS AND GRANDDAUGTER NO CHOICE. GOOD THING HER SON WILLIAM MURRAY MANAGED TO BRAKE FREE BEFORE THEY ALL FELL VICTIM TO THE HORRBLE BAD CONSEQUENCES OF MADALYN’S CRAZY SCHEMES.

DH

There are three kinds of biographies. Those that are apologetic or supportive. Biographes that “try” to be neutral. (Not possible) And those that are hostile. The hostile biographies will paint the subject in the most derogatory way. Needless to say this “biography” is a hostile biography. And more importantly, it is a smear job against Atheism. It feeds the religioso and the Freethought community un-needed (speculative) ammo to critisize serious atheists and their history. A shameful book by a shameless author. (DH)

J.R.Ortiz, Jr.

While I am a religious skeptic, and even remembering some agreements with this woman two or three decades ago, she never spoke for me. I found her too antagonistic, hateful and intolerant. Yes, I am not much a believer but at least I understand people wanting to believe in God or the doctrines of their given religion or group. Even Moslems I can understand. And this woman, Ms O’Hair, deserves more pity than hatred. She made us skeptics look bad. No wonder I don’t get along with many atheists and religious skeptics. Is one thing not wanting to believe in God. Is another to be disrespectful and intolerant to other people’s beliefs. They are entitled to believe whatever they want as long we respect each other.

p.keirle

some very interesting comments. i am currently writing a thesis on the politics of atheism in the US (i am an australian) and will definitely be incorporating aspects of O’Hair’s experiences.

I thought J.R.Ortiz’ comment, ‘even Moslems i can understand’ was very strange. Moslem’s, like Jews are capable of believing things just as strange as Christians, unsurprising given they are all Abrahamic religions.

i also find the bigoted, ‘bible-bashing’ responses quite strange. Surely jesus is your exemplar, as gentle, forgiving and compassionate entity. Why is there a need to resuscitate the angry, selfish, vengeful god of the old testament. all it conjours is the image of a Fundamentalist Christian Jihad.

Peace

anonymous

Having just read William Murray’s biography, I take issue with the following comment that she “loved” her children. According to him, she was an unloving, uncaring, filthy mouthed, abusive liar. Thank God that he found his way out of this hell hole and turned to Jesus, which is where he found love. And that he made the correct decision which saved his life. God plucked him out of what he was in when he decided to submit to God, who delivered him from smoking and drinking immediately, just for starters. I feel sorry for atheists. Because they ultimately have no hope. Better to believe God; if I am wrong I haven’t lost anything, and I lived a good life. If I’m right, I’ve gained everything. There either is a God of the Bible or there isn’t, even if it’s 50/50, I’d rather believe God!

“Madalyn dearly loved her children; everyone close to her commented on it. She bent over backwards to help them, give them every advantage, and make them feel treasured. And they did; they knew how much she loved them.”

guest1

Hear what God has to say through his Word:

This the path of blindness and death, without hope, without God.

Psalm 53: 1] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. [2] God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. [3] Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [4] Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. [5] There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

4. Ezras. 8 (56)For when they had taken liberty, they despised the most High, thought scorn of his law, and forsook his ways. [57] Moreover they have trodden down his righteous, [58] And said in their heart, that there is no God; yea, and that knowing they must die. [59] For as the things aforesaid shalt receive you, so thirst and pain are prepared for them: for it was not his will that men should come to nought: [60] But they which be created have defiled the name of him that made them, and were unthankful unto him which prepared life for them. [61] And therefore is my judgment now at hand.

“Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.”- Psalm 50:22

His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.- Proverbs 5:22

The Bible mentions that God is slow to anger and merciful. And surely He is. But He is also Holy and Just in all his ways. He is also greatly to be feared, because He is not man, but God. If He makes a way crooked, there is no one that can make it straight. Apart from God there is no life. The Bible clearly mentions that “all those who hate God, love death”. And it is to their own peril, that people turn against God.

Is this message grave ? yes. Is it fearful? yes. Is it true? yes.

It is as true as it is fearful. Imagine one day, you wake up and decide that the law of gravity does not apply to you anymore and that you wish to be free of it’s force. And say that your wish does come true and you alone were granted to be free from gravity. What would happen? Without no force to pull you to the ground, you would end up in space and then you would die because of the conditions present there.

SO it is with God. We can try to ignore Him, escape Him or even deny Him to avoid His presence. But if we are not with Him, we no longer are under His protection and guidance. And because of this we like sheep are capable of wandering away into darkness and death. No matter how much man tries, he cannot escape God.

Suzan

I wonder what Madalyn would tell us today if she had the ability to share with us what she has experienced since her death. Make no mistake, life is eternal. She is present, apart from, but aware of, the God she fought so hard to disprove. She knows the truth now. She knows the reality of dying without Christ. “For God so loved the world (that’s you & me) that He gave His only Son that whoever would belive in Him would not perish, but would have eternal life” John 3:16 Your life is eternal – will you perish or have everlasting life with God? Sin seperates us from God. Ask Jesus to cleanse you from your sin and make your heart right with Him today.

murray

As a descendant of O’Hair, I find some of the comments on this wall highly disturbing. Please, when you choose to make comments, think of who could stumble across them. Also, for those that believe atheism leads to suffering, please tell me why my grandfather, a true man of God, is suffering from dementia and cancer or why my stepfather’s mother, a good Mennonite woman, died from Alzheimer’s. There is plenty of suffering in this world, much of which occurs to Christians in developing nations. Please consider your comments out there before realizing who may read them.

Jorge Dimas

I think that she did not help America in any way prayer should be allowed and i can see how she got to ban prayer she was full of bad things

Cathy

Murray, Jesus said “pick up your cross and follow me”. Our sufferings here on earth are to help bring us closer to him. Offer up your sufferings to Him for the Salvation of sinners. Our life here on earth is temporary. Regardless of our sufferings it is only temporary. Turn to God to give you the grace to endure your suffering. When you die it is for eternity. You will either end up in Heaven or Hell. If you end up in Hell there is no getting out. Also the suffering of all here on earth is the result of sin. It is the result of what happens when we excercise our right of free will and chose to sin. Our sin affects all people, even good people.

Austinite

quoting from the Bible does not make you right, or appear educated… so please stop trying!

Facts: 1. The Bible is the first compilation of recorded writing (aka a “book”) by MAN in western civilization; not by God or any supernatural beings. And definitely not the first written book in the world; bounded Chinese writings (aka a “book”) predates the Bible by 1,000 years. 2. The Bible is written by men who knew men who knew Jesus. Neither Jesus himself, nor his disciples (John, Paul, etc.) had anything to do with the Bible. The Bible is composed at least 70 to 100 years after the death of Jesus by men who never met Jesus before. 3. The above 2 facts are taught by the instructor on the first day of the lower division class, Children’s Literature 101, a required course at the University of Texas at Austin. Do not argue with me, go after the state of Texas if you want to stop this “heresy”.

I can go on and on about religions being great philosophies teaching us how to live life, and how zealots manipulate these religions to justify their action. But I will not waste my time. Just know that no one should be punished for what they believe in.

I believe the O’Hair case is an unfortunately example of the society punishing individuals for their beliefs. This mob mentality is further reflected thru APD’s way of handling the murder case, or the lack of…

I do not understand why APD pratically gave up on the investigation from the get go, but after speaking to a few retired APD officers here in Austin I kinda get the clue. I cannot divulge much, but you may want to take a guess at who David Waters (the murderer who only got 80 years in jail time for killing 4 people in TEXAS, where they hang you for assisted suicide) is related to…

Donnie

I just listened to 3-4 hours of Madalyn on an old recorded talk radio show with a Pastor and the host (youtube 1968 show I believe). She seemed very inteligent in many ways but she was an absolute buffoon in any attempt in logic or philosophy as it related to anything pertaining to God or existance, first cause, nothing can come from nothing, etc. And she was totally ignorant of the Bible. I think a simple logic class and maybe a bible class or 2 would have really helped her in her attempts at debating the religious circle. But she was a highly sought after speaker who loved to make fun and redicule most any religious person…why did she want to waste her time on logic! She would just shout down the Pastor when he asked something she had no answer for and called her on an inconsistency in her dialoge. I can definately see why the atheists didn’t want her on their side.

Bobby Shue

I think (no, I know) Madalyn Murray O’Hair was misunderstood by the majority of American’s who make up close to half of the population. HOWEVER, Madalyn Murray O’Hair was misunderstood by all. I believe she was a woman who saw the obnoxiousness of public prayer in school, when in that time it was mandatory, and fought against it. If you are Christian, I think that is GREAT, but you should keep it at home, because in REALITY that is NOT everyone’s faith, and you know what, THAT IS OKAY! I (Myself) am NOT an atheist, however I am not against Atheist. I believe in a higher power but, I do believe if you look back in history and time, that there are other religions that go farther back that Christianity, and I don’t believe that if you are divorced, or homosexual, or tell a lie, I do NOT believe you go to hell for that. I think everyone who believes in God should all study what “God” is for all rather if you are pagan, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, or just spiritual (like me) or even if you are agnostic or Atheist WE SHOULD ALL RESPECT EACH OTHERS FAITH, and take into consideration that whatever God we believe in is only a matter of ones faith and that it is NOT fact. That is the reality of it! I am a gay man, and have battled with my sexuality due to my Christian up-bringing, I also have a minor in religion, and have a partner of two years now, and come to terms with how ridiculous it is to think that God would cast me into hell simple because I am gay? LOL. I don’t think so… If that is what you believe than, fine. You Christian fanatics can chose to believe in your God, however, you don’t need to flaunt it, and shove it in everyone’s face. And Madalyn Murray O’Hair just stood behind what she felt was right, as we all do.

anonyumous

MADALYN MURRAY IS HORRIBLE. SHE INVOKED ALL HER STUPID OPINIONS ON OTHERS WHEN ALL THE OTHERS DID NOT WANT HER FAT STUPID MOUTH OPEN IN THE 1ST PLACE CHRISTIANS RULE THIS COUNTRY, NO MUSLIM OR DUMB ATHEIST WILL EVER TAKE MY RIGHTS AWAY, AND THATS A PROMISE