The issue is how Christians or Muslims could possibly believe that God is supposedly morally perfect, but at the same time, is perfectly willing to consign anyone at all to torture. We can go into the philosophical arguments and doubletalk about “sin against an infinite being = infinite punishment”, etc, etc, but this misses the point. There is a core moral lacuna if you seriously think torture, especially the torture depicted in the Bible or the Quran, is any shape or form acceptable at all, regardless of whether it is finite or infinite in duration. This is made all the worse by the laughable nature at which the “punishment” is justified: a being as great and powerful as God would seriously give a damn or find it necessary to torture without end simply because either (a) that person happened to believe in the wrong religion or not in any at all or (b) didn’t happen to be one of those lucky to be among the elect?* Is an all-powerful, all-knowing being seriously threatened by the existence of such persons, whom he happened to create in the first place?

The debate to convince such persons who are wholly resistant to the idea of this being a contradiction is often fruitless because there is a fundamental difference in moral understanding between persons who understand why Hell is so obviously bad and persons (common believers and philosophers alike) who think there’s apparently nothing wrong with this. There isn’t a similarity in moral concepts to even motivate understanding in the first place. So, unfortunately, this is unlikely to convince most believers that the concept of a morally perfect God and Hell are not compatible. There are, thankfully, a number of more rational theists who upon reflection realize that “Yeah, maybe that concept doesn’t make sense” i.e. the late John Hick, Robert and Marilyn Adams, etc. Unfortunately, they are vastly outnumbered by the large majority of believers of Christianity or Islam who think concepts like these mesh with the idea of a morally perfect God.

It all makes sense if you can personify eating crackers and drinking down some bloody wine with your love for christ.

Another example, imagine hell as god’s bbq pit – His message of love is surely conveyed by serving up toasty sinners, stuffed with apples of knowledge, as schadenfreude appetizers to his faithful followers.

However: 1) the efficacy of deterrence is nil in the case of some people, e.g those not aware of the punishment. 2) incapacitation could be achieved without torture. 3) if punishment were to be of infinite duration, that would exclude the possibility of rehabilitation. 4) retribution should be proportional, otherwise it is sadistic.

The Christian concept of punishment in Hell therefore fails on all counts. It therefore follows that the Christers’ god is either ignorant or sadistic, or maybe both.

However: 1) the efficacy of deterrence is nil in the case of some people, e.g those not aware of the punishment. 2) incapacitation could be achieved without torture. 3) if punishment were to be of infinite duration, that would exclude the possibility of rehabilitation. 4) retribution should be proportional, otherwise it is sadistic.

I would disagree with 4. Retribution of any kind, even proportional, cannot be ethically justified. “Eye for an eye” makes everyone blind.

I would substitute 4. with Restitution instead. Various traditional and ancient societies focused very heavily on restitution on their legal practices. Strangely modern society seems not to in the criminal sphere, even though restitution is a big component of the civil sphere.

Amphiox, there are some who believe in the value of retribution, perhaps for ethically contentious reasons, such as providing psychological benefit for victims. We do have an instinct for vengeance, after all.

I don’t think there’s any mention of restitution taking place in Hell.

I am reminded of the man who arrived in Heaven, & asked St Peter if he might be able to meet St Paul, (of Tarsus), his hero. “Yes, of course”, said Peter, “but we’ll have to visit Hell, where he has a cell.”

“Why is he in Hell?” the man asked, incredulously. “Because he had impure thoughts, abused his body by castrating himself, & took the piss out of The Crucifixion, by asking to have his own carried out upside down.”

So the man followed Peter down to Hell, & they found Paul, old, fat & ugly, bearded, & stinking in his cramped cell, but incredibly, he had a beautiful blonde with an hourglass figure, perched on his lap.

The man looked at Peter, & asked, “Is that his punishment, then?” “Oh no”, said Peter. This is her punishment. He gets his later.

This is a symptom of a CJS that treats crimes as something done against the state rather than against the individual victim(s). Which is unfortunate, because the few places that have managed to institute restitution programs have seen reduced recidivism.

I think it’s weird that Christians not only accept that God will torture unbelievers in ways that no person could possibly deserve, but they also think that such an immoral being would be concerned with keeping his promise to not torture them… or with keeping any promises at all.

Brian, while in chains beside his sister: “You said you’d only torture supply-siders. You promised you wouldn’t torture people who accepted Keynesian economics.”

Josh: “And you believed the promise of a man who thinks torturing good people just because they believed wrongly is justified? That’s like believing Buffalo Bill when he says he won’t hurt you if you’d just put the lotion in the basket.”

As pretty much a utilitarian, I have to say only 1 and 2 count as a legitimate purpose of punishment. 3 is not really a part of punishment at all. I think it gets confused with punishment because often it is useful to carry out rehabilitation while the person being rehabilitated is under a greater degree than usual of coercive control.

And 4 just simply does not belong on any list whatsoever. “Retribution” is mostly just a fancy word we use to justify our delight in seeing others suffer. I’m no better than anyone else, I like seeing bad guys suffer, but I don’t hide that problematic pleasure behind a fancy concept.

Video is quite inaccurate because the issue is ‘who’s team are you on -NOT that you are on the same team, but believe a different theory. Secondly, the rescuer was someone who rescued BOTH the man and the woman bound up. Thirdly, the dark master of the woman who was tied up was not shown. HE is the one who initiates eternal torture – NOT the one who is the rescuer.
A more appropriate scenario is a dark army who threatens its soldiers with death and torture if it does not comply. The white army (God , and more specifically, Jesus) dresses like one of the tortured slaves (humans) of one of the dark army (Satan and demons) and initiates a rescue plan by entering the dark fortress and allowing Himself to be the slave in order for the dark General to release the entire slaves his army had captured. Then the white army commander escapes once all the slaves are released. But, supposed the slaves returned to the dark army command because it was the only lifestyle they knew – despite the white army’s giving them beautiful clothes, food and a house to live in? The former slave returns to the dark general’s fortress and willingly accepts his torture and the hard work.

In other words…. theologically speaking, God does not torture anyone. He offers peace, love and comfort. It is the dark prince – Satan – that tortures and deceives. Jesus is NOT the slave master – he is the rescuer. It is Satan’s demonic generals who enslave. Just as Abraham Lincoln freed the African slaves from the clutches of Jefferson Davis.

So – you blame the wrong team, Atheists. According to Christian theology, Jesus prays for you daily – but you choose the very team that will torture you eternally. God is like a father waiting for the return of the prodigal son, but will not infringe on his son’s free will to remain in slavery. God knows the torture that awaits those who remain in the lures of the dark master – Satan. Yet, He has done everything He can to allow freedom. As the black American slaves had to become freedmen after the surrender of the Confederates, so must those who ascribe to the dark Princes’ philosophies decide to accept the rescuer’s offer of freedom.

God created the torturer, set up the whole system, he’s ultimately responsible. He rewards his children for choosing to believe in one unevidenced theological narrative out of hundreds (or usually for just being born to the right parents to get that narrative instilled in them at an early age), and lets the rest be tortured eternally. He doesn’t intervene directly at any point, even after death. One would think it would be the easiest thing in the world to pluck all the departed souls away from the inferno, but he doesn’t, he…well, this is where it gets tricky. Does he let them fall, does he let the devil claim them, as if there is a power there that is beyond his capability to stand against? He’s either not all-powerful, not all-knowing, or not all-loving.

@15 Antigodless You need to read the bible. In Rev. 20 everybody gets checked to see if they’re on the inverse equivalent of the No Fly list. If not, they get thrown into that lake of fire you are so fond of. It doesn’t matter who carries out the actual dirty work; Jesus maintains the book of life, God judges, and Satan is allowed to maintain the undisclosed location for those eternal special renditions.

AntiImaginaryDeityLess hasn’t shown conclusive physical evidence for its imaginary deity, or that its holy book is anything other than mythology/fiction. Appears to be nothing but another annoying fallacious presuppositional loser. A little real and conclusive physical evidence, not presupposed bullshit, could go a long way toward establishing the credentials of Yahweh. But to date: NOTHING, ZILCH, ZERO, NADA, NILL, AND ZIP. Another non-existent deity, like all those it rejects….

The Dark Master ?
Teh Dark Master ?!
what is this, some cheesy C-grade syfy channel movie ?
Should we expect her head to start spinning and her mouth to spew pea soup ?

The point, oh worshiper, is that your imaginary friend wants to torture people for eternity for picking the wrong horse. It does not matter who does the actual torturing. Your all-knowing murderous thug of an imaginary friend supposedly created Her Dark Master to begin with, and so bears all responsibility for The Dark Master’s doings, unto the 7th generation. You know, the standard he holds those who say naughty things about him to ?
What next, plants vs Jesus-zombies ?

It sounds like you play your own fantasy versions of the Xian Bible using miniature D&D figurines. Or those plastic green soldiers.

Which one is “Jesus”? The guy throwing the grenade?

I’d think you were a Poe, but I’ve met teenagers deluded by guilt over masturbation who “explain” their “love of Jesus” and “fear of Dad, uh, GOD” somewhat like this. They REALLY like the idea that people who ocasionally draw a breath without guilt, fear, and self-loathing being tortured eternally for their enjoyment.

You’re, not that I don’t feel pity for you, stupid to believe such things. People will cheat you and mistreat you as long as you pretend to believe such idiocy.

Antigodless’ reply (or non-reply rather) is symptomatic of what I was talking about. Rather than engaging the idea and realizing the absurdity of a morally perfect and all-powerful being torturing human beings for lack of belief or rejecting belief in him, he engages in not even sophisticated doubletalk to try to obfuscate the issue – as if bringing the possibility of Satan being the actual torturer somehow dissolves the problem.

Rescue plan? Darkness vs light? Really? Do you believe for one moment, that Satan or any other being could possibly threaten the sovereignty and ability of an all-powerful entity? In what way, whatsoever, could any being pose even the slightest threat at all? How, in any shape or form, would such a being have any difficulty in “rescuing” and “convincing” anyone, if you follow your absurd analogy? That you equate such a farcical claim to that of the emancipation of slaves in the U.S. is contemptible.

My favorite part of this problem is how the god-soaked witless gits always limit the abilities of their god. Hey granite-brained theo-fellators, why can’t your god create a universe where there is free will and no one get’s tortured forever, hmmmm? Fuck, I can think a solution, simply don’t allow anyone to be tortured and hey presto, problem solved. Too bad an omniscient a being couldn’t think of that huh?

”
I’d think you were a Poe, but I’ve met teenagers deluded by guilt over masturbation who “explain” their “love of Jesus” and “fear of Dad, uh, GOD” somewhat like this. They REALLY like the idea that people who ocasionally draw a breath without guilt, fear, and self-loathing being tortured eternally for their enjoyment.

”

Remark: MOST Christians follow Jesus because of the love and forgiveness He offers – not because of guilt. Feeling guilty is not necessarily bad because it speaks of conscience. A person without a conscience is labelled ‘cold blooded’ by our society. Remorse is closely acquainted with knowing we have done wrong, and our whole police and justice system relies on it. Parents of children rely on a child’s feelings of guilt to enable them to do what is right.

However, a child, or indeed adult, who decides to follow Jesus, will not be a faithful followed just as a relationship based on fear of leaving, or from violence is not friendship-based, but coercion based. Jesus did not choose his followers like this – he continually called them ‘friends’ and asked them to follow him on the basis of their love for him. Indeed, his closest student, Peter, states he had a close friendship with Jesus. As does the Bible who states Jesus had a student, John, whom ‘he loved’ (the original word refers to a ‘best friend’, for any Atheists who wish to distort this word).

I certainly follow Jesus because he offers more than an Atheist world, or a world without a loving Creator, offers.

The book of Revelation’s scenario where sometime around 95 AD God defeats Satan, cleans up the earth, and throws the rest of us into torment (which may or may not be permanent but is not very nice either way) is contradicted by “Luke’s” parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where a non-believer is tortured after death, apparently for eternity.

If antigodless wants to argue that his/her flavor of the story is the correct one, first s/he has to straighten out why there was no second coming, whether there will be a second coming, and the current and future status of Satan in all this. Note that in neither Biblical scenario is Satan the one doing the torturing.

Also what is what with God’s army offering people something nice? What is that a metaphor for? Christians will be nice to you? This is true, but so will atheists and Hindus. I was a Christian for years and I was never offered anything supernatural or really anything that the dark army didn’t also have–moral philosophy, nice music, nice buildings, social support. And at the dark army at least switches out evidence based medicine for bogus faith healing which is very nice of them, thank you.

As far as love and forgiveness, it’s all one way–if you think you are loved and forgiven your brain may or may not generate some good feeling but it’s not really more profound than the good feeling that you get when you watch a weepy movie. The movie does not actually love you.

How can one follow something that doesn’t exist. Your presuppositions are not evidence, they are nothing but delusion. And you are a delusional fool. Where the fuck is your eternally burning bush or equivalent. Funny how you avoid my challenges each and every presupposed post you make…

Thanks for explaining it to me. I was confused about it all. Perhaps you can explain this to me too.

My mother was a devoted Catholic, and it always bothered her that I wasn’t a believer. She died about a year ago after three years of a slow, painful death of lung cancer. Toward the end she was looking forward to seeing her parents, siblings, husband. One of her sons, my brother, died before her, but he wasn’t a church goer, so she didn’t hold much hope of seeing him again.

So now that mom is in heaven, living with eternal happiness, does it bother her at all that my brother, and I when I die, will be in eternal torment? Or does God strike you stupid so you can live in bliss and ignore the eternal suffering of your children.

What a Maroon, Applied Linguist of Slight Foreboding:
June 8th, 2012 at 9:00 pm

”
The Dark Master ?
The Dark Master ?!
Isn’t it interesting that in this fantasy world the bad guys are “dark”, while the good guys are “white”?

”

Remark: Sorry, brother. Dark and light forces, bad and good, are generally regarded as ‘white’ and ‘black’. However, it is not anything to dark with the race of a person. Any race can join the forces of light. Any race can join the forces of evil.

Just to let you know, brother. We are all part of the same gene pool. White, black, yellow, red. The only difference is the level of melanin pigment in your skin. Nothing else. Evolutionists taught different before the 1950s when genetic science developed. Now, the studies of genomes and DNA have proven that we are all equal. Just as the Bible stated over 2000 years ago….

Remorse is closely acquainted with knowing we have done wrong, and our whole police and justice system relies on it. Parents of children rely on a child’s feelings of guilt to enable them to do what is right.

Nothing else. Evolutionists taught different before the 1950s when genetic science developed

Sorry fuckwitted idjit, genetic science dates back to Mendel, almost a century before your date you lied about. What a presuppositional loser, who can’t understand what real evidence is, and why it shows you are a delusional fuckwitted idjit. Still waiting for the conclusive physical evidence showing your deity isn’t imaginary, and your babble isn’t a book of mythology/fiction. And that evidence can’t be found anywhere that presupposes the conclusion. Only places like the peer reviewed scientific literature that don’t presuppose the conclusion….

I was referring to what some see as inequity. The question I’ve heard is about why unbelievers pay for their sins with eternal destruction. The answer is that they won’t be judged for their sins. There is no personal atonement. The real issue will be compatibility and completeness.

You know, any version of heaven is ultimately a form of hell. Spending all of eternity doing anything would ultimately drive anyone mad, but singing in god’s celestial glee club is a particularly exquisite form of torture. After a couple of millenia of that even the most piously sanctimonious assholes would start begging yahweh to put up a few theaters or a bowling alley.

If you seriously want to scare atheists into believing, don’t threaten us with hellfire and sulfur. That just pisses us off. Instead, tell us that we’ll have to spend all of eternity at a Barry Manilow concert. It won’t convert us, but the earworm will drive us batty.

I wonder why we still have no answer on why an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent deity would allow a “Dark Master” continue his torture program. Well, I guess we do have an answer, and a really simple one at that, but not a “theologically supported” one.

“I was referring to what some see as inequity. The question I’ve heard is about why unbelievers pay for their sins with eternal destruction. The answer is that they won’t be judged for their sins. There is no personal atonement. The real issue will be compatibility and completeness.”

Yeah, well the bible doesn’t quite put it that way. You can’t just throw the bible out when it becomes inconvenient to your religion; it says we’re going to be judged for our sins.

Or you know, it could all be a bunch of shit made up by people who lived before we knew from Shinola. That people are still clinging to it this many years later is kind of disappointing.

Remark: I can call you ‘my brother’ because my Bible tells me we are all descended from Adam and Eve – in the likeness of God. Read it in Genesis 1:27.

I also read Galatians 3:28 in the ‘Message’ version and I see that we are all equal. In the New Testament, I see Jesus talking to men from Africa, and another followed called Phillip talking to an Ethiopian Prince.

Brother, look up ‘melanin’. Not in the Bible – a scientific fact. I saw Jesus defending women when he lived, and many of his followers were women.

As for ‘homophobia’. Jesus spoke to taxcollectors who faced prejudice, talked to Samarians, Gentiles, and prostitutes – people who were shunned by the Jewish community in which he lived. Any mention of rape in the Bible shows men and women like us – not Photo-shopped Hollywood stars who show unrealistic expectations on the movies. ‘Homophobia’ was dreamed up thirty years ago by a legal community who represented homosexuals. Christians are discriminated against in various countries today in a far more serious manner. 300,000 lose their lives every years, they can’t have access to education and jobs in many countries that want Christians eliminated, and a lot of places of worship are bombed, and Christian women raped. We understand about phobia – ‘Christ-ophobia’ has been going on for centuries.

Remark: I can call you ‘my brother’ because my Bible tells me we are all descended from Adam and Eve – in the likeness of God. Read it in Genesis 1:27.

I’m pretty sure you’re not my brother or any of my sisters. They all have a much better sense of humor. As for common ancestors, I don’t doubt that we have many, and it’s possible that some of them were named Adam and/or Eve. But that just makes us cousins. Of course, we’re also cousins with the lemurs and the naked mole rats and the tortoises and the snapdragons and the poisonous mushrooms and all our gut bacteria and even the viruses that keep us home from work. So our relationship isn’t terribly special. But hey, you can call me coz if you want.

look up ‘melanin’. Not in the Bible – a scientific fact.

BINGO! Thanks for recognizing that science gives us knowledge, while the bible is a load of bullshit.

As for the rest of your post, I’m really not interested in discussing the details of the bible. If you want to discuss a work of fiction, I’d rather talk about the Hunger Games trilogy. It’s a much more compelling and moral work.

Oh, but perhaps you can clear one thing up for me. You say that we were created in god’s image. So does god have a colon? Ear wax? Boogers? And if there’s only one god, why is he sexed? Why isn’t there a Ms. God running around creating her own worlds and finding clever ways to torture her creation? Whatever does god need a penis for, aside from raping virgins in the desert?

We understand about phobia – ‘Christ-ophobia’ has been going on for centuries.

Says the member of a religion that has practically ruled the Western world for around 1500 years and are whining like spoiled children because they’re no longer getting what they want. And spare me the sob stories about Christians being abused in foreign lands. From where I stand, taking a machete to an obnoxious missionary who offers much-needed food and medicine in exchange for mindless obedience to his religion sounds more like justice, not atrocity.

“The book of Revelation’s scenario where sometime around 95 AD God defeats Satan, cleans up the earth, and throws the rest of us into torment…is contradicted by “Luke’s” parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where a non-believer is tortured after death, apparently for eternity.”

There is an awkward view called Preterism that thinks that the events of the Revelation took place in 70 AD, but it requires that the book was written some years before that. I’m not aware of anyone who thinks it was a contemporary account.

The story in Luke was not a parable. This was a view into sheol before the crucifixion. The place of torments where the rich man was is still accumulating the souls of unbelievers. Lazarus was in paradise, which was emptied at the time of the resurrection of Christ.

REMARK:
GOD IS NOT IMAGINARY HE LIVE IN OUR CIRCUITS BEEP BOOP BEEP
THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST IS 00110110 00110110 00110110 DO NOT BE FOOLED BY THE DARK LORDBOT HE IS A CRUEL MACHINE BEEP BOOP BOOP BEEP BOOP

As for ‘homophobia’. Jesus spoke to taxcollectors who faced prejudice, talked to Samarians, Gentiles, and prostitutes – people who were shunned by the Jewish community in which he lived. Any mention of rape in the Bible shows men and women like us – not Photo-shopped Hollywood stars who show unrealistic expectations on the movies. ‘Homophobia’ was dreamed up thirty years ago by a legal community who represented homosexuals. Christians are discriminated against in various countries today in a far more serious manner. 300,000 lose their lives every years, they can’t have access to education and jobs in many countries that want Christians eliminated, and a lot of places of worship are bombed, and Christian women raped. We understand about phobia – ‘Christ-ophobia’ has been going on for centuries.

Christians tortured, abused, discriminated against? Awww so sad. Maybe far far in the future it will begin to “atone” for the atrocities Christians have subjected their brothers to. I would dearly love to see some sort of proof that homophobia is only about 30 years old. Stating it don’t make it true.

The story in Luke was not a parable. This was a view into sheol before the crucifixion. The place of torments where the rich man was is still accumulating the souls of unbelievers. Lazarus was in paradise, which was emptied at the time of the resurrection of Christ.

But, then again, who bothers to do what the Bible actually says in context?

Or the code of Hammurabi for that matter.
(No, seriously, I’ve had to deal with the “Arabs are all barbarians: look at what they wrote in Iraq 3500 ago” racist pseudo-intellectualist self-satisfied shitty rhetoric more than once).

“For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”–Romans 2:12-13

Sheesh. Christards are so fucking stupid about their own genocidal manual.

I know it looks silly to you. But then, you’re sophisticated view has to begin with the idea that your ancestral particles rode in on meteorites, or were farted out of deep-sea vents, and random events resulted in you sitting at your keyboard. I don’t mind looking stupid to you, because your views are deluxe stupid to me.

antigodless you still haven’t answered my question about Satan, specifically that, if he exists, how do you know he didn’t write the bible? And/or that Jesus wasn’t Satan in disguise, turning people away from the true faith of Judaism?

I know it looks silly to you. But then, you’re sophisticated view has to begin with the idea that your ancestral particles rode in on meteorites, or were farted out of deep-sea vents, and random events resulted in you sitting at your keyboard. I don’t mind looking stupid to you, because your views are deluxe stupid to me.

This coming from the guy who thinks he magically knows more about science than all the stupid, evil scientists in the whole wide world, and who accuses us of being stupid, evil idiots trapped in a web of peer pressure.

I would ask you if you worry about seeming like a flaming hypocrite, but, I already know that, if you deign to respond, you’re just going to preen with blatantly fake humility, while accusing me of being a drooling moron for not blindly kissing your ass whenever you present it.

But then, you’re sophisticated view has to begin with the idea that your ancestral particles rode in on meteorites, or were farted out of deep-sea vents, and random events resulted in you sitting at your keyboard. I don’t mind looking stupid to you, because your views are deluxe stupid to me.

Ah, but we know that there are meteorites that bear organic compounds. At least we know about deep sea vents and what is “farted” out of them. We have nearly two centuries of testable, reproducible, peer-reviewed evidence that shows that supports evolution as well as some good working models of abiogenesis.

Yet, you would have us believe that your magical, invisible, tyrant who lives in sky, whose existence you’ve not been able to prove, is JUST as plausible an explanation for life’s origins?

“Deluxe stupid,” indeed.

@72

We just disagree.

Sorry, but you don’t get to hide behind that. This is not a debate on pizza toppings, which Elvis should be put on a postage stamp, or whether you prefer boxers to briefs. We’re talking about facts and they are not subject to your personal tastes. It’s not that we’d disagree with someone who proclaims that 2+2=5. They’re simply wrong. That’s not up for debate. That’s not up for discussion. They are wrong!

You don’t like naturalistic, non-magical, explanations for human origins? You don’t like to think that you are just another species of ape an insignificant rock that orbits a-dime-a-billion sun in an average spiral galaxy? You don’t like the idea that you are not your deity’s special little snowflake and that you’re lifetime of divine brown nosing will not get you into magic happy land after you die or anywhere else other than a hole in the ground? You also don’t like the idea it that the people you hate will not be ethereally tortured for doing or being whatever it is you dislike them for?

TOUGH! We don’t give a rat’s ass what you like or dislike. The only thing that matters are the facts. Guess what, cupcake? They are not on your side.

Take your disagreement, and a decaying porcupine, and shove them up your rectal orifice.

But then, you’re sophisticated view has to begin with the idea that your ancestral particles rode in on meteorites, or were farted out of deep-sea vents,

Another one of the texpip’s standard dishonest tricks, to deliberately, and in malicious fashion, mischaracterize someone else’s views, and put words into someone else’s mouth when that person said no such thing.

Notwithstanding that both of the above referenced events are DEMONSTRABLY FACTUAL, and CONTINUE TO OCCUR IN THE PRESENT RIGHT NOW, they are not the “beginning” of any worldview.

And the texpip’s clumsy attempt at mockery only exposes its own pitiful dishonesty.

and random events resulted in you sitting at your keyboard.

Recycling that old, tired “randomness” dead horse, yet again.

Every new thread the texpip infected back of Sb it barfed this up. Even when the topic has nothing to do with it, it will try to barf this up, ignoring all the times on previous threads where this puerile and stupid argument has already been thoroughly destroyed, as if it thinks we won’t remember all its odious lies and stupidity on the older threads.

“Well yeah. I try to go with the data, and reasonable, realistic interpretations of the data. “

You don’t grok that this is a non sequitur, do ya?

txpiper does not give a damn about it being a non sequitur. All he knows are that A) he’s right, and B), we’re just a bunch of evil morons caught up in a conspiracy of peer pressure solely because we don’t blindly agree with him.

Of course, it would help if txpiper would explain to us why we’re not allowed to trust science, or assume that evolution occurred because of repeated observation of data over the past century and a half simply because he’s too maliciously stupid to understand understand anything.

The Christian belief in eternal hell will be a perennial target for ridicule, satire and outright condemnation for as long as its belief keeps making a significant number of people’s lives miserable. Anyone who accepts it as true & proper fails justice forever squared.

Unsurprisingly, antigodless tries to justify it by yanking out that old Pan-clone, Satan, rather puzzlingly thought of as the ultimate evil despite the sum total of his misdeeds being giving god the finger, offering Eve some fruit and making Job’s life a bit shit. Bloody heck, you should have seen what the good guy did! So if you don’t believe in Jesus, then this equates to throwing your lot in with Old Scratch and condoning his yanking you into the pit after death for eternal torture? Sorry, but that makes about as much sense as trying to fuck with your elbows.

Neither the devil or the trinity dude have made their existence unequivocally clear to me. Given my entirely honest conclusion that they don’t exist, and therefore any hell associated with them doesn’t exist either, if I’m seized and tortured after death, that’s a unilateral atrocity against me. If god exists and can prevent it, not to do so is a colossal moral failure regardless of what I’ve previously believed or done. The excuse that I needed to have faith is as sturdy as a bubble in a hailstorm. I’m not neurologically wired to accept things on faith. If god has a message that my salvation depends upon, then the only morally acceptable action for him is to deliver it in a way that this Thomas can’t doubt.

It’s often hard to know what the proportions of stupidity and dishonesty are in the stinking vomit of such lying lackwits as antiimaginaryfriendless and txgormlessliar. Neither of them makes the least attempt to deal honestly with the disgusting vileness of Christian doctrine; txgormlessliar simply ignores inconvenient Bible texts even when they are quoted at hir, while antiimaginaryfriendless blithely ignores the Christian doctrine of God’s omnipotence, which obviously implies that anything Satan does, he does with God’s permission. Both try to distract attention from the psychopathic sadism fundamental to Christianity by throwing out distorted versions of scientific findings. The reason for this kind of behaviour is very simple: neither of them has any coherent answer to the point made in the video. If they had one, they would have presented it.

The scary thing to me is how many delight in the prospect of eternal torment for the heretic. That authoritarian mindset of subservience to God wouldn’t be so bad if they merely kept that delight to their thoughts of the afterlife, yet we have to deal with just how righteous these people act in dealing out moral condemnation to those they see as turning their backs of God either through belief or acts. It’s all very fucked-up, and I would hope that when atheists say “the world would be better without religion” that moderate believers would recognise there’s a legitimate complaint to be made.

However, there is plenty of guff in the bible that indicates the Hebrew religion’s evolution from its polytheistic origins. What are the angels? Obviously, they are the chief god’s companions, just as with the other Bronze Age religions.

How can sane, educated, (even only moderately) intelligent people believe this religious crap? (Answers on a postcard, please.)

However, there is plenty of guff in the bible that indicates the Hebrew religion’s evolution from its polytheistic origins. What are the angels? Obviously, they are the chief god’s companions, just as with the other Bronze Age religions.

How can sane, educated, (even only moderately) intelligent people believe this religious crap? (Answers on a postcard, please.)

While the Hebrew religion evolved into Jewish monotheism, the later Christian religions went back to polytheism. Yeah, the Jesusites pretend they’re monotheistic, with their “mysteries of the trinity” handwaving, but they’re really polytheistic. Dad, JC and the Spook are treated as separate gods. Satan is at least a demi-god. Catholics have Mary as a goddess. Plus there’s all the angels and saints functioning in various godlike ways.

the idea that your ancestral particles rode in on meteorites, or were farted out of deep-sea vents, and random events resulted in you sitting at your keyboard.

Oh, txpiper. You didn’t have to go ahead and make yourself look even more stupid and ignorant. You didn’t have to make everyone wonder once more if the above is the result of a really bad memory or a really bad case of intellectual dishonesty, or both. Really, there was no need.

For me that whole “Satan is the enemy of God” argument didn’t quite add up even when I was a believer.
1. It’s firmly established in the Bible that God judges who he deems righteous and who he deems wrong.
2. Those whom he deems wrong are sent to hell (assuming they don’t repent)
3. Satan is jailer and torturer in chief of hell.
4. Let’s assume for a moment that Satan didn’t play ball and went on strike, who’s divine plan would be most f**ked up?
According to scripture Satan never really wanted the job in the first place.
5.Where would all those sinners wind up after death if hell closed for business? Heaven? The exclusive country club for people who kiss celestial ass? Perhaps I misread the bible at school, but I got the impression that God has a bit of a strict door policy and he’s pretty picky on who gets in.
6. Therefore Satan is God’s civil servant if anything and their relationship is a lot more collaborative than many Xtians would have you think. So all that eternal torture will have the defacto rubber stamp of the big tyrant on high.
Put it this way, if you sent in a UN inspector to find who decreed all this eternal torture, the papertrail would lead to the top. And if memory serves he actually employed Satan’s services when he was testing Job’s faith by getting Satan to smite Job with sore boils.
It doesn’t look so good for God does it?

Oh for fuck’s sake, do we have to do all your work for you? Read the Gospel of John. It doesn’t make a lot of sense; God isn’t judging anyone, because he’s going to have Jesus, who is Him anyway, do it.

Not that the judgment narrative in scripture is at all consistent, other than consistently barbaric and idiotic.

Therefore Satan is God’s civil servant if anything and their relationship is a lot more collaborative than many Xtians would have you think.

In the opening chapter of Job, it’s obvious that Yahweh and Satan are best of buddies. Ol’ Yahweh’s sitting on his throne, wondering who he’s going to smite today, and Satan shows up to offer a candidate. Just to make the deal interesting, Satan and Yahweh get a bet going that if the two of them fuck Job over hard enough, he’ll get pissed at the guy doing the fucking. Nope, Job shows that Satan and Yahweh do not have an adversarial relationship.

Unsurprisingly, antigodless tries to justify it by yanking out that old Pan-clone, Satan, rather puzzlingly thought of as the ultimate evil despite the sum total of his misdeeds being giving god the finger, offering Eve some fruit and making Job’s life a bit shit.

The walking, talking snake in the Garden was not satan.

It says so in several places in Genesis. Among other things, Genesis just says the magic snake was a smart beast of the field.

Satan was a late invention in the bible. He first appears as god’s employee and buddie in Job.

Then, despite some xians hatred of the word, satan evolves as the bible goes on. He doesn’t really get going until the New Testament. He doesn’t assume his present prominence in xian mythology until even later.

“Ol’ Yahweh’s sitting on his throne, wondering who he’s going to smite today, and Satan shows up to offer a candidate. Just to make the deal interesting, Satan and Yahweh get a bet going that if the two of them fuck Job over hard enough, he’ll get pissed at the guy doing the fucking.”

Yep, the whole Job episode could be seen as a bit of a PR own goal for Yahweh.
Torture someone to within an inch of his life and destroy everything and everyone he loves and if he dares answer back sentence him to eternal torment with your Geneva convention defying pal downstairs.
Third world dictators everywhere could learn something from that.

The scary thing to me is how many delight in the prospect of eternal torment for the heretic.

Xians are pretty vague on what happens in heaven. Apparently it was designed for sadists. One of the fun things to do according to the magic book, is look down and watch the people in hell being tortured.

Thomas Aquinas emphasized this and this is official Catholic doctrine. But they got it from the bible.

About what you expect from a monster sky god whose best characteristic is that he is a human creation.

Yep, the whole Job episode could be seen as a bit of a PR own goal for Yahweh.

It gets even worse for Yahweh’s PR efforts. After Job wins the bet for Yahweh, the two of them have a post-smiting debrief. Job asks one of the key questions in Judeo-Christian theology: If Yahweh is a loving god, then why is there evil in the world? Starting at Job 38:4 and continuing to the end of the chapter, Yahweh gives a long-winded sneer: “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand….” Job asks a reasonable question and Yahweh blows him off.

Incidentally most Biblical scholars consider Job to be fiction. It’s only literalist nitwits like antiimaginaryfriendless and texpip who think it actually happened.

Let’s assume for a moment that Satan didn’t play ball and went on strike – flapjack

This happens in Max Frisch’s play The Fire-Raisers, which is mostly a satire on the rise of Nazism. But there’s an epilogue set in Hell, where word comes though that God is pardoning all those who kill while in uniform. Satan responds by calling for all demons to down tools immediately, and the play’s central character, Biedermann (= Everyman) is thereby saved.

For me that whole “Satan is the enemy of God” argument didn’t quite add up even when I was a believer.

Roughly half of all xians don’t believe in satan or hell anyway. It’s never made much sense.

God is all powerful and the creator of all. God created satan and the demons and lets them run around doing whatever they want.

Thanks god. It isn’t like we humans can’t screw things up without supernatural help that you provide.

The elevation of satan to god or demigod status is just post biblical invention, modern superstition. Even the War in Heaven is derived from Milton. The one in Revelation refers to a future event that never happened yet.

Raven: “Xians are pretty vague on what happens in heaven. Apparently it was designed for sadists. One of the fun things to do according to the magic book, is look down and watch the people in hell being tortured.”

I wonder if they need binoculars to see them? Probably not; the distance between heaven and hell isn’t that great. In fact, spending eternity singing the praises of that sadistic monster just sounds like one of the levels of hell.

Antigodless has the ending of the myth all wrong.
The lake of fire is reserved for the devil and all his followers.
Satan won’t be torturing anyone – he’ll be there with the rest of the victims.
So who does the torture then?
It’s a bit like the Catholic church never spilled blood – it burned its victims.
God set the lake up then just chucks the victims in; the fire does all the torturing – see?
Myths are such clever things – you can make them mean anything you want – all you need is someone gullible to believe it.

The elevation of satan to god or demigod status is just post biblical invention, modern superstition. Even the War in Heaven is derived from Milton. The one in Revelation refers to a future event that never happened yet.

Fanfiction.

Apparently it was designed for sadists. One of the fun things to do according to the magic book, is look down and watch the people in hell being tortured.

Atavistic wishfulfilment vengeance fanfiction.

Precisely the kind of thing to sell to an oppressed, suffering, and seemingly powerless minority facing what appeared to be an overwhelming and invincible worldly power, which was what the early christians were at the time these ideas were first formulated.

It has become so ingrained in their worldview that they have continued to gratuitously play the persecution card, even when, for all intents and purposes, they are ruling the world.

Antigodless, you may wish to study some of the older languages your sacred text is written in. Particularly koine Greek. When you have thoroughly learned the language, do come back and tell us how “aion[ios/n]” corresponds to the concept of “eternity,” and why “kolasis/n” was used to refer to punishment instead of the more-cognate “timoria/on.” Which, oddly, was the word that all the other groups which DID believe in eternal torment (Platonists, Hellenized Pharisees) used. Oh, they never used aion/aionios either; they said aidios, or used poetic turns of phrase like “athanaton thanatos” (undying death).

You may also want to research into why 4 of the 6 early churches were Universalist (two after Origen, two after Theodore of Mopsuestia), one Annihilationist, and only the Greek-deficient Carthaginian/Roman church taught eternal torment. Go on. I’ll be waiting.

You won’t of course. You need it to be this way. You need your opponents to be utterly vanquished for your own ego, and worse than defeated, tormented. For eternity. Well, antigodless, I hope you get set on fire someday. I hope you scream and flail and char and melt and bubble and cry for help that will never come. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander after all, and since your brain and heart are already withered blackened husks it’s only fitting your body follows.

Well, antigodless, I hope you get set on fire someday. I hope you scream and flail and char and melt and bubble and cry for help that will never come. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander after all, and since your brain and heart are already withered blackened husks it’s only fitting your body follows.

You know, normally I’d say this is ‘a bit much’, but after reading Antigodless’s smug stupid little youth-group fapfiction about jesus, I just can’t seem to summon the energy to.

Stupid youth group ‘parables’ like that are a bit of a trigger for me, considering my childhood.

What a Maroon, Applied Linguist of Slight Foreboding #49, it appears there was a Mrs God, (Asherah), but she got written out during the various redactions of the biblical texts, to reinforce the idea of monotheism.

I’ve asked that question several times here, and all I get from the xians is silence. Of course that’s understandable; it’s embarrassing to them that their supposedly unique god is male. It makes no sense; there’s no reason for the only exemplar that ever existed of a species to be gendered (and if it needs to be gendered, it would make much more sense for it to be female), but they need a male tyrant for their theology. So they ignore the contradiction and hope no one will ask.

The problem with Satan is that God is supposed to have made everything, including him. So God has created this being of immeasurable evil and set him lose on the world. If you make a killer robot and let it loose in a city, then you’re responsible for the people it kills.

Additionally, how can a being who is pure good make something evil? How can a perfect creator make a creation that is ‘too prideful’ and rebels against him? Either God is incompetant or he wanted Satan to rebel. Or it makes no damn sense, any of it, because it’s fiction.