Consider ww2: Germans would fight Soviets to death because they knew they'd be tortured if they were captured, whereas they would surrender fairly easily to the Americans because they knew they would be treated well.

Heck, the only reason Japan surrendered to the US was because it was preferable to surrendering later to the Soviets or the Chinese. It's art of war 101.

2wolves:Can anyone with recent (or current) experience tell me why a Captain was the radio operator? Or was he a REMF slammed into that duty so that he couldn't get good Marines killed?

Sniping isn't really something that a CPT is going to have his hands on directly, either. No doubt he was involved in planning the mission and was in the TOC during the mission, but there's a very small chance someone of that rank would actually be on the ground during that kind of operation. I believe his attorney may have misspoken by calling him a "radio operator." He was most likely in the room with someone who is actually the radio operator, but may have at times been operating the radio during the patrol. My old CO would always be in the TOC during missions and would sometimes use the radio but would have certainly bristled at ever being called a radio operator.

limboslam:Oooooohhhhh......they pissed on dead taliban. I wish they crapped on them, too.

Desecrating the corpse of a fallen opponent is not appropriate behavior for a member of any armed forces group. Not that most armed forces groups care about such things, but our military typically does, at least when you're dumb enough to film and release it.

/Rule 1 of military shenanigans, don't document it//Not endorsing the act, just face-palming at the extra stupidity of recording it

2wolves:Can anyone with recent (or current) experience tell me why a Captain was the radio operator? Or was he a REMF slammed into that duty so that he couldn't get good Marines killed?

Yeah, the way his duties are phrased in the article is a bit disingenuous. Officers in a combat infantry unit aren't meant to be riflemen. Their primary job is to control their unit, to provide a positive line of communication between higher echelon units and the platoon. Don't be misled by the weird legal arguments.

The fact that a captain was even out with a foot patrol is slightly odd, one would think he would have had the sniper platoon commander out there instead ( a Lieutenant, usually).

As much as I sympathize with the captain, given a good understanding of the mindset of an infantryman in that situation, this outcome was unavoidable. The commanding officer is always to blame, such is the best and the worst part of command.

Quoted from Eugene Sledge's With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa

When most men felt the urge to urinate, they simply went over to a bush or stopped wherever they happened to be and relieved themselves without ritual or fanfare. Not Lt. Mac. If he could, that "gentleman by the act of Congress" would locate a Japanese corpse, stand over it, and urinate in its mouth. It was the most repulsive thing I ever saw an American do in the war. I was ashamed that he was a Marine officer. (p. 219)

I'm always dumbfounded that the business of killing strangers expects some level of decorum. It's OK to shoot a man you've never met in the face, but you must do it respectfully. Reminds me of Doctor Strangelove: "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! It's the War Room!"

caddisfly:I'm always dumbfounded that the business of killing strangers expects some level of decorum. It's OK to shoot a man you've never met in the face, but you must do it respectfully. Reminds me of Doctor Strangelove: "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! It's the War Room!"

Being able to rationalize that it's your job to kill another human being and that it's entirely appropriate to do so is a big jump. But in order to try to keep it from being ye olde barbarian rape and pillage there needs to be some amount of reining in of the appropriateness of the act. Do whatever you need to to kill the other guy, but once you're confident he's dead, let dead bodies be. You don't want your own corpse to be mistreated, don't mistreat theirs.

caddisfly:I'm always dumbfounded that the business of killing strangers expects some level of decorum. It's OK to shoot a man you've never met in the face, but you must do it respectfully. Reminds me of Doctor Strangelove: "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! It's the War Room!"

TheShavingofOccam123: I was ashamed that he was a Marine officer. I read that book together with "Goodbye Darkness" by Manchester. Powerful stuff, and no wonder Pacific Theater vets often don't wish to recount the war. Utterly horrifying.

Thanks for the title. I've put my Kindle in high-gear and need new books to read. I read Sledge after I watched The Pacific. A relative gave me Japanese bayonet from Iwo. He never talked about it.

Interestingly, the criminal charges were dropped against Captain Clement, after his lawyers discovered that the commanding officers had unlawfully attempted to influence the outcome of court-martial proceedings:

The military has of course followed up by drumming Clement out of the service administratively. This is their revenge on him, for daring to not only exercise his rights, but to expose their direct violation of military law (in contrast to what they've tried to put him in prison for, which seems to boil down to "failure to supervise" but in reality seems like nothing more than "they did this and you were on duty, even if you couldn't have prevented or even known, we are sending you to jail").

I wonder what punishment will fall on the generals? Oh, that's right- none.

mama's_tasty_foods:(in contrast to what they've tried to put him in prison for, which seems to boil down to "failure to supervise" but in reality seems like nothing more than "they did this and you were on duty, even if you couldn't have prevented or even known, we are sending you to jail").

As much as I hated the "If someone under you farks up you farked up and are going to get hemmed up for it" mentality while I was in about stupid stuff, sometimes it really is important.

What about the culture of this unit / platoon / squad etc made it acceptable to do this? Either their commander hadn't made it clear to them that corpse desecration was unacceptable, or didn't have enough documentation to prove that he had given them that direction and they had gone against orders anyway, or didn't have enough documentation to prove that once he was aware of the problem he squashed it hard and properly.

2wolves:Can anyone with recent (or current) experience tell me why a Captain was the radio operator? Or was he a REMF slammed into that duty so that he couldn't get good Marines killed?

In the USMC, the sniper teams fall under the S-2 (intel) shop of a battalion. The S-2 is typically run by an 0203 Ground Intel Officer. Usually the S-2A or another Lt in the S-2 is actually in charge of the teams. Sometimes, those guys (0203s) get to go to Sniper School. Typically, those who do are in charge of the teams. He may have just been out on a patrol with one of his teams.

Rather than try to run the show when he doesn't routinely get out, he probably humped the radio and talked to higher. The STA team commander doesn't get to get his gun on as often as some.

There's a lot of other crap associated with this incident, but it really boils down to "he was in charge when something went wrong" and in the military, that often means you're getting fired. Unless you're above an O5 or know someone.... kinda like LtCol Conway, who's also involved in this.

kabar:In the USMC, the sniper teams fall under the S-2 (intel) shop of a battalion. The S-2 is typically run by an 0203 Ground Intel Officer. Usually the S-2A or another Lt in the S-2 is actually in charge of the teams. Sometimes, those guys (0203s) get to go to Sniper School. Typically, those who do are in charge of the teams. He may have just been out on a patrol with one of his teams.

Yes, that part I am fully aware of.

Including those who don't do the formal school and get the hog's tooth.

I don't recall ever seeing a captain humping a radio. If he was out there just to get some war on his record then he was even more in the deep shiat.

MythDragon:You shot and killed another human? Good job!You peed on another human who really didn't mind at the time? OUTRAGE!

There is a little something about disrespecting the dead that goes against cultural norms, not to mention is a violation of many religions. I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination, but there are many people from all the cultures of the world who get majorly pissed off when you disrespect dead animals, even more so when they're dead humans.

Seriously, you already farking killed the guy, feeling you need to do something more than that seems like kind of a red flag. They treated the "bad-asses" in Vietnam who took ear trophies as a bit gone mentally as well. Probably should have some type of military rehabilitation program for these people rather then just throwing them out into society with a dishonorable discharge though.