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Well yes... because they are both under Aikikai, I understand that. But as I said (and you quoted), what about situations where they don't fall under the same organization, such as Yoshinkan and Iwama for instance?

Thank you for the in-depth reply Quickly though, I'm still trying to find out the more factual differences in the styles? Are there specific differences in the techniques, that matter to any noticeable degree?
While self-defence is a concern, it is only one point out of many. I think one of the main reasons I'm so fascinated by Aikido, is that it's very different from what I trained before (very "dumbed down" Shotokan Karate, which was horribly linear and boring).

To be honest, I don't know if I'd train for much more than 2'ish years. Chances are that once I reach something up around Shodan, I'd want to change to another martial arts, something like Judo/Krav Maga/Aiki-jutsu/BJJ or such, something very different again. I'm not sure I'm interested in overly specializing in one specific martial art in the long run, but you never know

And yes, originally I was going to start training this coming month, but I realized that the only Yoshinkan dojo around me is closed until September, and I really wanted to have a look at it before deciding. As such, I'm going to wait until I've had a look at the dojo's in Japan in August, and then decide when I get back, and I can have a quick trial lesson at the Iwama and Yoshinkan place Otherwise I'd already be checking out the two!

If you go to Aikido Journal´s website you will find lots of in depth articles on many different important persons in Aikido and you can spent the next 10 years + refining your research. You will also find an easy step by step guide at Aikido Journal written by Stanley Pranin describing the various steps in finding the right dojo for you.
If you want to find out how the various styles do this or that just read all the articles and threads on this forum and all the articles on Aikido Journal, search the web and youtube and that will give you a broad idea and there is plenty to choose from, but it will not provide you with personal experience which is more important. You decide.
There are several lineages in Denmark as well represented by "Dansk Aikido Forbund" ( the danish aikido federation ) which is affiliated to Aikikai. Maybe you should start your research there and try out the various dojo´s in your area for yourself.

I seem to have offended you... not exactly sure why though. If you're simply going to be posting passive-aggressive troll replies, and have nothing constructive to add to this at all, I'd rather you just leave the thread alone Ironic that you seem to take offence at my search for answers, and turn to such behaviour, on an Aikido forum. I hope you are not in any way a hint of things to come.

Being constructive is a two way process dear Philip. It´s give and take. I think you know the answers allready and maybe you should try to put the puzzle together for yourself. We all have to do that you know.
You won´t get anyone to say publicly which style is better than the other, and you will never reach a point where people will agree on this.. so why bother asking this question ? If you notice this whole forum is discussing all possible aspects of aikido for years and years and many more years to come.
There are no easy answers and no easy fixes to general questions and problems.
I have learned that by writing here as well and publicly making an ass of myself at one point.
So my advice to you is to start listening carefully before you do the same. We are afterall merely beginners and we should act accordingly. I wish I realized that 3 months ago but we all learn I guess.
Regards
Lars

BTW: In the danish Aikikai almost all the dojo's are Nishio inspired. They are combined with the Iwama ryu inspired dojos in DAF together with a few dojos of other styles (as Lars explained above). DAF is - as far as I know - the only connection between the Aikikai and danish Aikido.

Therefore: go try out each of the relevant dojos. Don't judge on the dan level of the instuctor. Judge on the way it feels to you. That is more important than anything else.

But if you are not planning on sticking to Aikido more than two years because you want to 'shop around' then I think you should start on something else. You seem to go for quick fix rather than the benefits of the long haul. Cross-training is not a shortcut around dedication.

You won´t get anyone to say publicly which style is better than the other, and you will never reach a point where people will agree on this.. so why bother asking this question ?

I think there are two reasons why people won't say publicly which style is better:

It's a bit like talking about which kitchen implement is better. Better for what -- peeling potatoes or frying eggs? OK, so you've said you're interested in "combat" -- but assuming that you actually find yourself in "combat" situations (and that's a big and probably erroneous assumption unless you're in the military, and even then it's unlikely for most), you still haven't clarified who's attacking you, using what weapons, with what skills, with what objectives, and what you want to do about it. If you walk into a kitchen store and say, "I want the best gadget you got!", don't expect to do anything but annoy people and disappoint yourself.

Any valid generalization about which style is "better for combat" (once "combat" is defined) has a good chance of being INvalid when you compare two actual dojos. It's an abstraction, and if you want to have an abstract discussion, well and good. If you want to find a place to train, it's not particularly helpful and can lead you in the wrong direction.

I don't get the reluctance to just take the original advice. If you use style as an arbitrary filter, sure, it will narrow down the number of schools you have to visit, but is that really necessary? Picking a school is a big deal -- if you're unwilling to spend the time to visit all the schools you might train at, maybe you should reconsider the whole endeavor.

Go back and read Post #4. A very senior and experienced instructor gave you very sage advice - a man who fills seminars quickly because of his skill and teaches law enforcement officers defensive tactics. After re-reading Post #4, read it again. He knows what he's talking about (as do the others here). Notice how he hasn't written another word since you blew him off?

Don't waste the two years you've planned on studying aikido - it takes much longer to become really competent. Just start off with Krav Maga or Systema and you'll probably be much happier - but I suspect that will depend more on who the teacher is than the art yet again.

I hope you guys and girls here can help me out in making my decision, or perhaps suggest other things I didn't even know about!
Thank you in advance!
Yoroshiku ne!

Hi Philip,
So if I understood well you want to study aikido max 2 years and get a black belt in 'combat' oriented style? Then you will move to bjj or MMA to continue study?

My advice is to not waste your time for aikido training. Even if you get black belt in 1 year, it means nothing at all outside of this particular dojo. Especially for MMA folks, they will simply destroy you in 10 seconds. Better start MMA immediately. I don't see any benefit you can get from your short aikido training.

"I do not want to be tied down to one specific dojo/teacher, but much rather one specific style. Then I can always change teachers or dojos, but once I've trained Yoshinkan, for instance, for a year, I can't merely change and continue in Aikikai".

.......Philip, it won't matter. You can go from one dojo to another within the same organisation and it will be different. Every dojo teaches and practices it's own Aikido. When you must change dojos you will need to practice the Aikido taught in the new dojo anyway no matter what style or organisation.
If rank is the only thing you are worried about then perhaps Aikido is not for you. If you change organisations and you worry only about if they will honor your rank then again perhaps Aikido is not for you. Worrying about rank in a new is a problem of the ego. If ego is at the root of the question then I know Aikido is not for you. I would add this post to your list of answers you were not looking for.
If Aikido is your real concern please do as others have suggested and visit each dojo and then decide. You can't pick one without visiting one.

In a way youre right, but hey.. we all learn something in the process, no.. ?.. at least I feel I shifted my focus during my 12 years of training, even I am no saint or kami offcourse..
Thumbs up !
Lars

This response does not answer your question, but questions your question. It addresses your assumption that it is the style that makes it more or less "practical" and I would suggest that it isn't even the teacher.

It's essentially you.

"...Aikido can't be "used" on anyone but yourself. It is a training method, or way, to learn the power of harmonious action. Boxers don't "use" a jump rope in the ring, that doesn't mean that jumping rope is not an effective way to train. These skills can then be taken into life to apply as desired. The best real-life Aikido "street stories" are, to me, when nothing happened."

Considering the amount of time you want to spend studying aikido (about 2 years, you said), it would not matter what style you finally decide to study. Arts like aikido are not usually studied for their martial or combat orientation. If this is your priority, a good long weekend course in applied self-defense would be more appropriate and more practical for you. If your goal is to achieve a black-belt ranking, then again, it would not matter what style of aikido you finally study.

From your writing so far, you seem to be more interesting in what "club" you are joining and what rank you will get in a certain amount of time. In that case find the dojo with the most authoritarian instructors, with the coolest uniforms and the highest membership fees.

If on the other hand, you would like to learn how to maintain poise and control when 3-5 skilled individuals are attacking you with energy and intent, go find a sensei who knows what he/she is doing. This is what most of the people here are trying to tell you. See how the yudansha treat the kyu ranks, how much is ornate formality, how much of the curriculum are the big throws and how much is an ongoing perfection of the basic movements and qualities you will need if you are ever pressed to actually use your art.

As to how long...it is an art and some are more gifted than others. Steady, hard work and a good sensei can train you in the basic techniques but to get to a useful level, against skilled opponents you will have to have develop any innate abilities and have a master level practitioner to help you understand how they apply. This doesn't go according to a preset timeline, shodan merely denotes a serious student.

I hate to say this, but if Your question is Which style is more practical for you, the answer is 'none.'

You're only going to be as good as the style you put time and sweat into, and from what I've read, you don't plan to put much time into the study.

I'd try another martial art, where you can see concrete results in a short amount of time.

Aikido as many other 'do,' is a life long study. There's no end.

You use the yoshinkan senshusei course as the equation for getting a shodan. But like any intensive course, it's... Intensive. Austere training. Not that many dojos could put you through the same paces, but the goal of a normal practice is not the same as the goal of that of a senshusei.

If you hold that high of a regard for that course, then go for it! Accept no substitutes! If you'll be in Japan for that time, then as they say in the Nike commercials, just do it. You don't need us to make that decision.

I strongly disagree with this. Aikido is much bigger than one club and one instructor, and there is nothing disingenuous about wanting more than one instructor and one club can give you, especially in the case of someone like Philip who already has a lot of martial arts experience.

Philip, I'm not sure if someone's mentioned this already, but Yoshinkan and Shodokan clubs are generally much harder to find than Hombu-affiliated clubs. If portability is important for you, keep that in mind.

I strongly disagree with this. Aikido is much bigger than one club and one instructor, and there is nothing disingenuous about wanting more than one instructor and one club can give you, especially in the case of someone like Philip who already has a lot of martial arts experience..

Every instructor with serious reputation has a distinguish system of teaching. If you take some elements out of this system they will have little value or no meaning at all. So if you jump from one system to another you will learn nothing significant even with some training background in other MA.

That is why it is so important to choose right instructor and not a ‘style'.

You realize that the Senshushei program is, literally, making people from scratch to Shodan in 11 months, right? I believe it's 3 hours a day, 5 days a week.

Why are you so concerned with making shodan? Be concerned with learning Aikido. Aikidoka will tell you that you don't start to learn Aikido UNTIL you make shodan. I think your looking to Aikido for the wrong things, I hope you find what it is your looking for.

I see, thanks for the reply
I compare it to when I was training Shotokan Karate, where my teachers were generally very hung up on your rank, and training you specifically in what you were supposed to be training in that rank. To the point where you were just happy to graduate to the next rank, just so you could start learning something new, LOL.

would just like to point out that, that is also down to the specific organisation/teacher.

I train in both shotokan and aikido, i have however been doing karate a lot longer. i used to do it as a kid many years ago and reached 1st kyu. about 15 years later when i took it back up (completely different style and school) my current teacher just evaluated my skills over a few weeks and i was given 4th kyu to start on. in other words, i was judged on my skills not my apparent 'no belt'. i also, twice graded quicker than you would otherwise do so as they felt i was ready and could do it so my school appears a lot more flexible than the one you were in. (still had to wait a whole year before being allowed to grade for black though, no choice in that one, heh).

we also run a mixed rank class so students often see 'more advanced' techniques and kata. the phrase 'you dont need to know this yet but...' comes up quite often keeps things interesting and gives a good idea of whats to come for the lower grade students. we also do a lot of self defence techniques that help break from the norm. (i've in fact been asked to adapt some of my aikido knowledge into workable self defence in these lessons in the past)

sorry, i realise that's a bit off topic but just wanted to reaffirm the point being made by others here that its not the style that dictates the way things are done, its mostly the organisation and in turn the teachers that influence that.

Every instructor with serious reputation has a distinguish system of teaching. If you take some elements out of this system they will have little value or no meaning at all. So if you jump from one system to another you will learn nothing significant even with some training background in other MA.

That is why it is so important to choose right instructor and not a ‘style'.

I just switched clubs. Does that mean I'm not learning anything significant?

I just switched clubs. Does that mean I'm not learning anything significant?

The really scary thing is that crass though he may be the unpronounceable one is like the proverbial wise man. He may not always be right but he is never wrong.

When you have the luck and opportunity to fall in with a significant teacher it takes time to reach a level under his eye for you to really begin to be taught.

Switching styles and dojo hoping needs to be weighed against that.

That said - by not exploring and exposing yourself to other arts and styles you run the risk of self/group delusion. Worse - what happens if the first pick is the wrong one. The trick is, like in all things, is to find the balance.

To answer the question - you only start to learn really significant things after some time with the right teacher.

The really scary thing is that crass though he may be the unpronounceable one is like the proverbial wise man. He may not always be right but he is never wrong.

When you have the luck and opportunity to fall in with a significant teacher it takes time to reach a level under his eye for you to really begin to be taught.

Switching styles and dojo hoping needs to be weighed against that.

That said - by not exploring and exposing yourself to other arts and styles you run the risk of self/group delusion. Worse - what happens if the first pick is the wrong one. The trick is, like in all things, is to find the balance.

To answer the question - you only start to learn really significant things after some time with the right teacher.

I agree with all of this. My issue was with the assertion that originally started this exchange, that is, that you're no doing "real" aikido unless you're attached to a particular instructor like a young apprentice to an old master in a kung fu movie.

I agree with all of this. My issue was with the assertion that originally started this exchange, that is, that you're no doing "real" aikido unless you're attached to a particular instructor like a young apprentice to an old master in a kung fu movie.

weren't those uchideshi of Ueshiba sort of apprenticeship? since he passed away, there haven't been that many good ones shown up. there's something to say about apprenticeship.