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Unless you've been hiding in a cave for the last few years, you are well aware by now of the explosive popularity of the UFC, Pride, IFL and other sportsfighting organizations have given to the competitive mixed martial arts (MMA) community, commerically hyping the MMA to official "sports" status that seems to have no end in sight.

Case in point: many other martial arts forums on the internet have been almost completely overrun with MMA devotees, "wanabees", virtual tough guys, polemicists & cyber-conquistadors who with an almost religious zeal wage holy war for the glory of the MMA against the traditional martial artist infidel. The traditional martial arts (TMA) and their practitioners are treated with disdain and mocked for training in "ineffective" and "dead" techniques that no longer have any real practical application in either fighting or self-defense situations. Although there is no argument that the majority of these folks (who are primarily pimply-faced teenagers) misunderstand even the most obvious differences between self-defense and fighting, it does raise an alarming question...

Question: considering that the overwhealming majority of sportsfighting fans/MMA devotees are teenagers and 20somethings, many who also express their sentiments on the internet...do you think Aikido is going to experience a crisis in active membership in the next decade? That is, once the Baby Boom Aikidoka begin to retire and/or no longer actively train...who will be taking their place? How will Aikido adapt in order to attract a generation blinded by the commercial hype of the MMA and competitive sportsfighting as being "true" martial arts?

Aikido will continue to attract the same kind of people, ones who would not be interested in practising something like MMA. I know some of us have started Aikido after seeing Steven Seagal kick ass on screen (I did) but mostly it is the intellectual side that is the real attraction. Haven't you noticed that there are so many philosophers among us aikidoists?

Question: considering that the overwhealming majority of sportsfighting fans/MMA devotees are teenagers and 20somethings, many who also express their sentiments on the internet...do you think Aikido is going to experience a crisis in active membership in the next decade? That is, once the Baby Boom Aikidoka begin to retire and/or no longer actively train...who will be taking their place? How will Aikido adapt in order to attract a generation blinded by the commercial hype of the MMA and competitive sportsfighting as being "true" martial arts?

A difficult question to answer for sure!

There are many threads that have been discussed here on aikweb concerning the speculative future of aikido, internal skills, the impact of the internet, and MMA...all things which will influence some, and not others.

There are many factors that come into play in a person's decision to study martial arts. Studying both MMA and Aikido in the traditional sense, I can tell you I think there is room for traditional martial arts such as aikido, I think it is relevant as practiced, I also think that there is much to be learned from other methodolgies such as MMA.

Only time will tell.

I'd recommend reading some of George Ledyard's threads concerning the future of aikido, He has some very interesting insights.

My feeling is that if someone is turned on by the idea of having their body pounded and bones broken to no end, until at 40 they can barely move. Then good for them.

I don't think all or even the majority of martial artists enjoy this though. Aikido is about understanding one's body and what it can do more so than how to completely annihilate someone else's ability to stand up and fight. I don't think we really want to attract the kind of people who want to pummel their opponent, they would probably get bored with Aikido fairly quickly. You can't learn Aikido quick enough to "kick ass" with it, and if you get to the point that you could, you most likely don't want to anymore. Just my two cents.

Every decade has its "new martial art" phase. In the 50's it was was primarily Judo, the sixties Karate (including Korean equivalents), the 70's it was Kung Fu, the eighties Ninjutsu, the 90's it was BJJ then transformed into MMA (into the early 2000's). Now it seems either Muay tai or Kali is the latest "hot" martial art.

Yet through out all this time TMA still continue to attract and train new people. We each train for our own reasons. We each choose the art we train for our own reasons. I for one don't think Aikido is or any TMA is in danger of extinction yet as long as their are competent people who train and teach said art.

Studying both MMA and Aikido in the traditional sense, I can tell you I think there is room for traditional martial arts such as aikido, I think it is relevant as practiced, I also think that there is much to be learned from other methodolgies such as MMA.

Aikido, like any budo, has an omote and an ura. There's been a lot of valuable philosophical exploration of the ura. However, if we lose the omote, the whole thing disintegrates. You can't have one or the other. I'm not sure you can even really -emphasize- one or the other.

I think MMA -is- a wakeup call. Not a challenger "we" need to fight and defeat - frankly, not only would that be wrongheaded, but furthermore "they" would win. But I think that hiding in a cave muttering that "we do REAL fighting, not that sport stuff!" is senseless. What IS aikido's intended context? And whatever it is, shouldn't it translate at least somewhat into MMA-style situations?

It seems like most great aikidoka, past and present, have also been skilled in other martial arts. Coincidence?

My feeling is that if someone is turned on by the idea of having their body pounded and bones broken to no end, until at 40 they can barely move

You mean like Kano and Helio? Or maybe you mean Couture?

You don't like MMA fine, then just ignore it and the obnoxious people that think it is the only way to go. But please do not fall into the trap of false assumptions, stereotypes and unverified statements.

The only time I was seriously injured and was forced to stop training was from aikido.

My feeling is that if someone is turned on by the idea of having their body pounded and bones broken to no end, until at 40 they can barely move. Then good for them.

I don't think all or even the majority of martial artists enjoy this though.

I just have to say that I got injured more often while training in Aikido than I have in BJJ/MMA. The high falls, allowing people to twist and lock joints, randori, etc. all add up to lots of potential for injury.

In regards to the original post...Aikido is what it is and MMA is what it is. They can compliment one another or they can conflict with one another; it's all in the eye of the beholder. Some of us here on Aikiweb do both and find no problems with it, others think that they should be kept seperate. Whatever works - variety is the spice of life y'know?

Thanks for the replies thus far! I neglected to note in my original post that I fully acknowledge the difference between cross-training & the MMA, which, on the surface, appear identical. However, they're two completely separate pursuits. Many of the greatest martial artists (including O'Sensei) cross-trained, and it's a surefire method by which to test your skills as well as to broaden & perfect them. The difference: a MMA is, quite literally, "a jack of all trades and master of none." His intent to is to take only what is beneficial for competition. A cross-trainer seeks to broaden their technical repitoire as well as, hopefully, pursue the essence of Budo. Sound familiar? It should. That's what drove O'Sensei and that's how Aikido was born!

I myself cross-train. However, my primary or "base" art is Aikido, the lens through which I view the martial arts in general and the standard by which I evaluate a technique, system or methodology.

It is my opinion that the MMA "fad" can, in the end, only strengthen Aikido by challenging a sincere Aikidoka to ask: "is this technique effective in today's world?", or "would this work in against so-and-so and such-and-such attack." Not that we should succumb to the polar opposite of the competitive MMA: the Hybrid Martial Arts, AKA "reality-based" self-defense or "self-protection" or Close Quarters Combat (CQC) that advocates the largely amoral use of force through an eclectic system that draws from numerous styles/schools that equally eschews etiquette, tradition & moralism in favor of "combat" skills.

Quote:

Adam Bauder wrote:

I hate to sound corny, but shouldn't "Aikido" just stay true to itself (whatever that is)?

Does it need to "attract"?
Especially those "blinded by hype"?

thanks,
Adam

Another St. Louis Aikidoka! Sorry I missed the seminar you folks hosted a few weeks ago. Really wanted to go. I'm currently studying with Harnack Sensei at Aikido Institute of Mid-America.

Quote:

Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:

Aikido, like any budo, has an omote and an ura. There's been a lot of valuable philosophical exploration of the ura. However, if we lose the omote, the whole thing disintegrates. You can't have one or the other. I'm not sure you can even really -emphasize- one or the other.

I think MMA -is- a wakeup call. Not a challenger "we" need to fight and defeat - frankly, not only would that be wrongheaded, but furthermore "they" would win. But I think that hiding in a cave muttering that "we do REAL fighting, not that sport stuff!" is senseless. What IS aikido's intended context? And whatever it is, shouldn't it translate at least somewhat into MMA-style situations?

It seems like most great aikidoka, past and present, have also been skilled in other martial arts. Coincidence?

Interesting thread which I'm glad to see come up.
A year or two ago in one of those "does aikido work on the ground" threads, I opined that the mma/and particularly internet phenomenum was going to threaten the growth of Aikido if the community is not careful. I was laughed down at the time, but I still beleive it.

Yes there have always been fads. The difference now is the internet. What did we all do when we first decided we wanted to do a martial art. Picked up the yellow pages, saw a flier down at the local library. Maybe picked up a few books.

What do people do now? They go straight to google. The vast majority of first timers will soon be walking in much better educated not just about Aikido, but about other arts and what other martial artists think about Aikido. They will not be getting this info from books like we did - which are pretty tightly controlled forms of information. But from message boards and discussion forums and youtube.

What does this mean for Aikido? I think it means we need to be very clear and honest about what Aikido is and is not for.

In the past I've heard alot of people, both in person and on the net run the "aikido is all you need" argument. That is the talk that will get people in trouble I think. Like anything, the first thing you need to sell is yourself. If Aikido instructors start by saying "oh yes Aikido is great for self defence it's the best thing you can do, it will take care of all your self defence needs" within I think 5 years, that talk will turn off most prospective students. Whereas in the past it may have helped to get them to sign up, in the future they'll simply smell a rat and leave.

Now the upside is the internet pehnomenum gives access to many more potential students, so you can better afford to play in a niche market - which is what aikido is. so it can be a real boon. But it *will* require the art to be clear on what it is and is not for. And it *will* require many people to drop the defensiveness when things like groundfighting come up and say "you know what, that's not really what we do"

MTCW

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"

Yes there have always been fads. The difference now is the internet. What did we all do when we first decided we wanted to do a martial art. Picked up the yellow pages, saw a flier down at the local library. Maybe picked up a few books.

What do people do now? They go straight to google. The vast majority of first timers will soon be walking in much better educated not just about Aikido, but about other arts and what other martial artists think about Aikido. They will not be getting this info from books like we did - which are pretty tightly controlled forms of information. But from message boards and discussion forums and youtube.

What does this mean for Aikido? I think it means we need to be very clear and honest about what Aikido is and is not for....

MTCW

Thank you! That's exactly the point I was trying to make. If the internet is all Aikido has going for (or against it)...then we're in trouble! I'm in my mid-30's. But I'm talking about an entire generation whose primary interaction with the larger world is via the internet.

Been on the Web since Mosiac and I have been in Technology for longer so I am a bit confused here.
If you're saying MMA maybe a catalyst for change because of the advent of the internet and the tendency for the MMA types to bad mouth anything not 'new" and "modern" then I don't think we have anything to worry about. I can't think of a single MMA Technique or Style of Fighting that has not been around since chimps started hitting and wrestling each other so nothing new there. In fact it's good for Aikido and will insure it's longevity.

"Why that's contrarian!"

Not really... I been in the martial arts since I was a boy Karate, Then Judo, Wrestled in High School... dabbled in the PKA a bit... have some experiance with Daito Ryu and now Aikido. When I got to Aikido I was looking for something different... More wholistic if you will that invloved body, mind, and spirit. there are other seekers out there in the MMA ranks as we speak like Jason Delucia and others who are "walking up the very same mountain." Some use Aikido, Some Kung Fu, others Koryu, Tae Kwon Do, Kali... whatever...You know these folks when you meet them. They have the "look" Contrary to Youtube and Google beliefs there are even a few traditional Gendai "Artists" Aikidoka, Judoka, and Karateka who hold thier own in Pride (which was just bought by the UFC gang). Sooner or later some of them will show up "looking for something different" and some of those folks will stay. I have seen folks spout about the forthcoming death of Aikido and complaining it does not work for years and yet somehow there is always someone (or two or three or four) who seems to like it... They practice hard... and excel as Aikidoka.

MMA has it's good points and I enjoy watching top athletes compete at an elite level. I am a big fan....However those who believe that somehow it is the be all and end all.... and... that all other arts must evolve in that direction or fade into oblivion are fooling themselves...

Those that also think youtube and google will somehow overrule direct experiance are even bigger fools

I humbly suggest you internet youngins puruse a copy of this here wood pulp and ink product (aka book) for a better understanding of why you should not think too highly of the present Google age.

Thank you! That's exactly the point I was trying to make. If the internet is all Aikido has going for (or against it)...then we're in trouble! I'm in my mid-30's. But I'm talking about an entire generation whose primary interaction with the larger world is via the internet.

Brian
You make an interesting point. I'm not sure if the internet is their "primary interacion" with the world but it plays a much more significant role, in our generation as well as theirs. Largely, we still don't understand the social ramifications of communication via the internet. It does expand our audience for certain. I find it overwhelming unless I filter a large part of it out. I haven't been a forumite for all that long. It is certainly a somewhat strange way of communicating with other human beings, and a way that has only recently been available. My jury is still out as to whether it is a good way to communicate. I am still somewhat fascinated by it though, otherwise you wouldn't hear from me at all. I am 'permantly' banned from my town's newspaper forum. Of course, they believe they are justified, and I believe they are not. A simple matter of opinion. The whole experience was fascinating however. It became something of a social experiment for me.
I do doubt the soundness of relying on the internet to judge aikido. I appreciate the dojo and seminar information available through the internet though, so I guess it's really a two-edged sword.
Training with someone is completely different than communicating with them on a forum. It is a much more effective means of transmitting and receiving ideas/concepts/movements and everything else.

You don't like MMA fine, then just ignore it and the obnoxious people that think it is the only way to go. But please do not fall into the trap of false assumptions, stereotypes and unverified statements.

The only time I was seriously injured and was forced to stop training was from aikido.

I guess I came off too harsh earlier (sorry about that), but from what I have seen of MMA. It seems to cause a lot of damage to the body. I have trained with quite a few guys who are still moving very well after 20-40 years of Aikido. I have also seen several guys get serious damage from brief training with MMA. So I suppose I am just judging based upon what I've witnessed.

MMA as a whole seems to me to attract a crowd of people who prefer martial arts for, as I stated earlier, "kicking ass" While most aikidoka I have met aren't in it for learning how to fight. Sorry to have offended earlier. Thanks.

If not for the internet, I would have never read a web bulletin, hosted by my then employer, inviting people to view practice at the on base gymnasium. I would have never met aikido without it.

For all the hype-fueled noise on the web, there is genuine worthwhile information. A lot of people have sweet tooth's earlier in their lives, with some luck, experience, information, the sweetness becomes monotone, and we graduate to something more complex, and often more nourishing. The 'wannabes' quit their mma, satisfied that their ken places them firmly in control of life. The people who taste something more through experience or just random luck want to find it again, and more clearly.

MMA as a whole seems to me to attract a crowd of people who prefer martial arts for, as I stated earlier, "kicking ass" While most aikidoka I have met aren't in it for learning how to fight. Sorry to have offended earlier. Thanks.

Some people in MMA are on a more esoteric level than that. They are genuine artists who want only to hone a personal martial art that is the most effective art for them. They're crafting their own suit that fits them to a "t." In "pure" arts, the student has to fit himself to the art; in MMA, he custom-tailors his own unique art. The main characteristics are that it can't be rigid - it must allow the person to adapt to the environment and circumstance, and, function is key. Without efficacy, there is no legitimacy.

It's not about wanting to "kick ass" and being a tough guy. It's about wanting to be genuinely effective. Big difference.

i can't answer your question, but i hope Aikido continues to get flamed and stepped on by the MMA community. that leaves more Aikido for us, and it keeps idiots out. although at 26 years old, i still get pimples from time to tome.

I have no doubt that MMA will continue to be the rage and have a lot of growth but the negatives of the MMA will eventually cause it to eventually play itself out. Aikido will continue to grow. Aikido has grown around the world in a situation where the other martial arts were already more established and better known. Here in Houston, there is hardly a shopping center or strip mall that doesn't have a karate dojo. Brazilian grappling is now appearing here and there and we have some well established Aikido dojos here in town that were started in the last decade and are growing. In my two dojos, we have 80 students and are busting at the seams. The Judo guys and grapplers frequently join us. I have quite a few in our dojos. They never question what we are doing and have a good time and they keep signing up. I have karate teachers in my dojos and also some Ninjitsu guys. Everyone gets along and has a good time. The locals are more humble and generally nicer guys than I have found on the net. Like most martial artists, some are coming to Aikido looking for something else and want to learn from Aikido. I try to see to it that they are challenged and feel they are in a good art. It is working so well, we are having to move to a larger place so we are happy with the state of Aikido in a time when MMA is so popular. I am glad the MMA guys see the wisdom of doing Aikido.
Best,
Jorge

The overwhelming majority of people on the Internet are more fans and wannabes than they are actual MMA fighters. Like with any aikido school, there are a lot of goof balls who (barely) train in the public classes even at places like Team Quest, but by no means represent the school or even good MMA. You can spot them after a few strategic questions.

People in MMA circles are constantly joking about the guys who are "going to be cage fighters." That category has exploded with the recent explosion of MMA. I remember rolling with a guy in LE who was known for constantly talking about his "MMA background" and all the people with Quest that he knew, and trained with, and his fight preparation and "personal instruction" from an MMA legend, and he had barely decent white belt skills. I happened to train Judo with one of Quest's fight team members and instructors, and work with a guy in Quest's instructor candidate program, and neither one of these guys had ever heard of this guy. He lives in a fantasy world.

On New Years eve I summarily dumped a real world attacker who later told officers that he "was an Ultimate fighter" and just got out of prison. The man was no ultimate fighter....

So take what people say regarding MMA with a huge grain of salt, just as you would what any aikidoka said who offered to you how "skilled" he was, until you found out who he trained with and what his actual rank was. And sometimes even that doesn't matter. There are D and F students at Ivy league schools, and so there are at MMA schools...

All that being said, there are also a lot of inroads being made in military and LE adapting the MMA methodology to the violent encounters that they face - much in the same way LE adapted aikido to address similar concerns.

FWIW, I now train at a Purebred affiliated gym that includes a Kenpo class - because the MMA figher/brown belt BJJ instructor holds dan rank in that art and wanted to respect his teacher by brining him in.

Last edited by KIT : 04-14-2007 at 12:25 AM.
Reason: Added last paragraph - and changed "-bread" to "-bred" LOL

Aikido is about blending, understanding, and should be all encompassing of all things that is life.

Aikido is also an individual pursuit...a methodology for training, not a set of techniques or stylistic movements.

As an individual pursuit, each of us must take aikido and make it our own.

This can include incorporating things that are considered by most to be MMA.

I think the best aikidoka are the ones in the future that will take aikido, make it their own and incorporate lessons learned in their lives, be it from interactions with others....or lessons from MMA, so to speak.

The best aikidoka will not sit by the sidelines in their dojos and thumb their superior noses at the world, but will go out into it and see how to apply aikido principles in many ways.

The best aikidoka will be able to demonstrate aikido in a MMA context, or demonstrate appropriate responses to the honest questions that many from a MMA paradigm will present.

If it is a concern, we should not sit on the side hoping the fad will pass or snearing at them in disdain, we should embrace them and seek to understand them and incorporate them into that which is aikido.

If your aikido cannot or will not reach outside of the dojo, then, yes, it will die on the vine and fade away!

That said, do not take this literally that aikido will die if it does not incorporate MMA, that is silly! However, we must stop the dualistic thinking within ourselves, and realize that all is aikido, and we must blend and embrace change to survivive!

The argument 'we dont see TMA techniques being effective in UFC-ish events, and therefore they can't work in real life' is illogic at its highest. Unfortunately, that attitude is common among its adherents.

However, what is great about MMA is that it is at the forefront of providing an environment with limited parameters, some necessarily for safety (because we are there to learn, not to kill each other). But it does so without it being 'play nice' rules that we see rampant in just about all martial arts.

To MMA, I'd add judo, sumo, boxing, and fencing, off the top of my head, as events where force and techniques are not unnecessarily limited by safety and other parameters, so we get something approaching a true test of skill.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."