Fair enough. I wasnít really debating realive ergonomics of Nikon vs Sony more just about the size. Personally I donít like the 850 ergonimics. Feels like Iím trying to hammer in a panel pin with a sledgehammer but that is very personal. Iím fine with the Sony. Actually thatís not quite true. Itís my favorite of all time.

I donít get the complaints about it trying to do to much all the time. It is customizable you know. Itís like saying you donít like cable TV because of two many channels at one time. Choose what you like. The viewfinder has three screens for the EVF and the LCD also three. Each is customizable. I have no info on the EVF at all but can call up the level by pressing one button if I require it. Simple really.

What Iím reall6 interested in is will Canon and Nikon be able to make small effective cameras. Iím not an engineer and I assume this is partly an engineering issue. I wonder what the problems are that need to be solved.

Anyway I donít think we should expect a revolution that will make us all better photographers. Just another competent camera is whatís most likely on the way. Hard to imagine Nikon getting it totally wrong. Just as hard for me to imagine something totally revolutionary. The next big thing will be to go take some photos I think.

I hope Nikon has taken a good look at the Leica SL. The competitive target may be Sony, but there might be more to learn from Leica.

I think a lot of the problems I have with Sony a7 ergonomics stem from the fact that it's just doing too much all the time. I mean there are 107 different autofocus modes and 84 different autoexposure modes, and picture styles for all your Instagram needs, and on and on. There are buttons scattered all over the tiny body that I've never been able to train my fingers to find quickly, and the viewfinder has so many icons to show me all the things its doing that I can forget to look at the subject in front of me.

Every time I read things like this I wonder if I'm in a different dimension and using a different Sony A7 as in my dimension I can set my A7 or any of my other digital cameras up so that I can look at the clutter free evf and shoot in aperture or manual mode and change the exposure mode (I only use evaluative or spot) or where the focus point is with ease and none of the Friendface stuff ever even thinks about interrupting me as it's all turned off.

Every time I read things like this I wonder if I'm in a different dimension and using a different Sony A7 as in my dimension I can set my A7 or any of my other digital cameras up so that I can look at the clutter free evf and shoot in aperture or manual mode and change the exposure mode (I only use evaluative or spot) or where the focus point is with ease and none of the Friendface stuff ever even thinks about interrupting me as it's all turned off.

Funny how I can do it and hordes of people on line can't.

Well... I suppose a good part of the problem is that I do very different things with the Sonys at different times. I primarily use the Sonys for video as a second camera or to fly on a lightweight gimbal. Then I want to use one as a still camera and everything has to changeóexposure mode, focus mode, focus area, picture profile, display setup. So itís probably my own personal use case thatís the problem. Perhaps if I set out to do it, I could make some presets that would solve the problem.

The other issue I have is that the various programmable buttons donít have enough tactical presence for me to find them without looking. Maybe this is down to being too accustomed to the Nikon ergonomics, or Iíd think that if it hadnít been so easy to pick up the Leica.

Every time I read things like this I wonder if I'm in a different dimension and using a different Sony A7 as in my dimension I can set my A7 or any of my other digital cameras up so that I can look at the clutter free evf and shoot in aperture or manual mode and change the exposure mode (I only use evaluative or spot) or where the focus point is with ease and none of the Friendface stuff ever even thinks about interrupting me as it's all turned off.

Funny how I can do it and hordes of people on line can't.

Yes. I was with a friend on Sunday. He bought his a7rIII back in may.

We were shooting our kids jumping up an down on some kind of huge plastic trampoline. Since there were many kids, he set out to configure his Sony to capture his son's face for it to be recognized by the face recognition feature (eye AF). After fighting with his menus he found the function after about one minute. He then called his son who didn't come right away. Managed to capture his face only to find out that his son was too far, or that there were too many faces.

End result, zero images captured in 5 minutes.

Probably user error and/or lack of familiarity with the camera, but still, it wasn't a very impressive demonstration.

We were shooting our kids jumping up an down on some kind of huge plastic trampoline. Since there were many kids, he set out to configure his Sony to capture his son's face for it to be recognized by the face recognition feature (eye AF). After fighting with his menus he found the function after about one minute. He then called his son who didn't come right away. Managed to capture his face only to find out that his son was too far, or that there were too many faces.

End result, zero images captured in 5 minutes.

Probably user error and/or lack of familiarity with the camera, but still, it wasn't a very impressive demonstration.

Cheers,Bernard

That says absolutely nothing about the camera Bernard. I could nail that situation on either of my Sony cameras in less than 15 s and Iím no genius.

Well, it tells me that the Sony system isn't easy to navigate and that eye AF doesn't work as well as it is sometimes explained.

Cheers,Bernard

If one is not familiar with one's new camera, the first thing to do is to learn and practice. So yes, the situation described was user error and user unfamiliarity with the camera. Cameras are complex computers, this is not even new. I remember that the manual for my Canon EOS 7D was hundreds of pages long...

P.S. The link to the rumours page says the new Nikon MILC will ne called... wait for it... Alpha???

If one is not familiar with one's new camera, the first thing to do is to learn and practice. So yes, the situation described was user error and user unfamiliarity with the camera. Cameras are complex computers, this is not even new. I remember that the manual for my Canon EOS 7D was hundreds of pages long...

My friend owns his camera for 3 months, uses it regularly and had used these functions a few times already... but sure, it must be him. The Sony menus are known for their ease of navigation.

My friend owns his camera for 3 months, uses it regularly and had used these functions a few times already... but sure, it must be him. The Sony menus are known for their ease of navigation.

Cheers,Bernard

Sarcasm is no proof of anything.

One button press allows me to quickly choose focus mode button C1, C2 allows me to immediately select focus zone. Back button focus has a little selector switch, one way is normal focus the other is eye focus. C4 brings up face detect, itís normally on in may case. Left press on the back wheel is drive speed. Couldnít be simpler. I can do it in the dark.

One button press allows me to quickly choose focus mode button C1, C2 allows me to immediately select focus zone. Back button focus has a little selector switch, one way is normal focus the other is eye focus. C4 brings up face detect, itís normally on in may case. Left press on the back wheel is drive speed. Couldnít be simpler. I can do it in the dark.

Well, it tells me that the Sony system isn't easy to navigate and that eye AF doesn't work as well as it is sometimes explained.

Cheers,Bernard

Well if I was given a D5 and tried to nail diving Ospreys...I'd struggle with the settings and most likely get zero shots in 1/2 hour. Does that make Nikon system not easy to navigate and the AF on the D5 not work as well as it is sometimes explained?

My friend owns his camera for 3 months, uses it regularly and had used these functions a few times already... but sure, it must be him. The Sony menus are known for their ease of navigation.

Cheers,Bernard

It takes a bit of effort to setup a Sony camera buttons and wheels the way you want, but once done, it's very rare one even needs to go into the menus. I've setup my Sony which does have the eye AF activation attached to a button and basically the only time I need to go into the menus is to format a card.

The complexity of the Sony menu system is exagurated greatly on the net by those that don't use a Sony and just echo what they heard...sort of like you Bernard.

It takes a bit of effort to setup a Sony camera buttons and wheels the way you want, but once done, it's very rare one even needs to go into the menus. I've setup my Sony which does have the eye AF activation attached to a button and basically the only time I need to go into the menus is to format a card.

The complexity of the Sony menu system is exagurated greatly on the net by those that don't use a Sony and just echo what they heard...sort of like you Bernard.

I have owned 2 RX100 and one a5100, shot with the a7.

Those are overall very nice cameras delivering great image quality but my first hand experience is that the menus are hard to navigate.

This is obviously not a major issue but the struggle of my friend on Sunday seemed representative of what a non expert user who studied the canera but doesnít shoot everyday with it may experience. It may be too much camera for him, he may have the same issues with a D5, who knows.

I am a bit amused by the reactions each time someone dares to mention one aspecf of the Sony that isnít perfect.

No camera is "perfect." Not a single one ever. The real issue here is fanboyism: exaggerating flaws in enemy brand products while downplaying flaws in the products of the brand one cheerleads. The greater the perceived threat from the enemy brand, the greater the exaggeration. The greater the awareness of flaws in one's preferred brand, the greater the downplaying. Thom Hogan just posted a piece at his main site that touches on this. All these cameras are complex and all have issues, issues that can be dealt with.

Even if I have a hard time imagining why anyone would consider a brand an enemy instead of looking at them as potentisl providers of equipment to help oneís photography.

The traditional closed system approach of Nikon and Canon have probably contributed to this which is obviously the greatest contribution of Sonyís mirrorless open mount approach.

Fortunately other companies are smarter and Broncolor does manufacture a bracket to use Profoto strobes with their para modifiers and vice versa.

Users of a given brand who deny obvious flaws do themselves a huge disservice by letting their manufacturer of choice think they are happy about things they should loudly complain about.

I have never been shy about voicing my discontent aboit Nikonís braindead mirrorless strategy, nor about the lack of suitsble T/S lenses for a loooong time.

The game is opening up now and I see myself moving to Sony or Canon mirrorless solutions. Which is why figuring out which is ďthe bestĒ has never been more important and usability is one of the factors. We know Sonyís cards and they are excellent. We should know what Nikon can do in a few weeks. Canon remains more of a mystery.

Those are overall very nice cameras delivering great image quality but my first hand experience is that the menus are hard to navigate.

This is obviously not a major issue but the struggle of my friend on Sunday seemed representative of what a non expert user who studied the canera but doesnít shoot everyday with it may experience. It may be too much camera for him, he may have the same issues with a D5, who knows.

I am a bit amused by the reactions each time someone dares to mention one aspecf of the Sony that isnít perfect.

Needing to use menus to change focus area, focus mode, drive speed, iso, face detect, eye focus or any number of other regularly used things is unnecessary and silly. Cameras usually have some kind of design philosophy, Sonyís seems to be hugely focused at customization and configuration. Buying such a camera and then not bothering to spend time working it out and configuring it makes no sense to me.

First time My friend and I went out shooting after he bought his new 850 he found himself stuck on the side of a mine dump struggling to find a setting he had used with his 810. What annoyed him is it turned out to be in the same place on the 850 as it was on the 810 but he had set that up so many years before he couldnít remember where to find it. Something to do with bracketing. A setting I donít use but itís a part of how he likes to shoot. It never occurred to me to have a go on a public forum about how people are struggling with the 850 menus. His error, we laughed about it, he sorted it out and we all moved on

First time My friend and I went out shooting after he bought his new 850 he found himself stuck on the side of a mine dump struggling to find a setting he had used with his 810. What annoyed him is it turned out to be in the same place on the 850 as it was on the 810 but he had set that up so many years before he couldnít remember where to find it. Something to do with bracketing. A setting I donít use but itís a part of how he likes to shoot. It never occurred to me to have a go on a public forum about how people are struggling with the 850 menus. His error, we laughed about it, he sorted it out and we all moved on

You just did though.

I would in fact agree that the Nikon menus could be improved as well. I hope that Nikon leverages the opportunity provided by their new mirrorless to improve things further.

Once users get used to a design (even if it is a bad one), there are always people internally and externally to defend the existing on the ground that people don't like changing.

A major paradigm shift such as the move to mirrorless is the opportunity to improve.

As a long term Nikon user, there many other things I think Nikon could/should improve:- eye AF on the D850/D5 doesn't work that well,- I have had cases of condensation in the viewfinder,- the sharing of images to smart devices with snapbridge is far from optimal- the thingy used to control the SB5000 wireless flash is an annoyance, this should be built-in- the AF control switch is had to use without looking at it- as already mentioned, the menus could be easier to navigate- when having a strong light from below the camera, there are cases of shading with bright lenses (this can be annoying when shooting panos)