I've been reading this thread after installing and quickly trying Sandrah mod yesterday. Although I barely had time to scratch the surface of this extensive mod, I think it has very high potential. Yet, I run into a few things that let me think that some - if not all - of Sebastian's points are valid.

Hence my question to Roxanne: do you plan to take into account this remarks in the future, or do you consider Sandrah Saga mod as satisfying for you in regards of the issues raised by Sebastian?

I'm curious to know

Priority at the moment is to get a stable mod and find remaining bugs etc. Also, hopefully more mods will make their way into EET, so that the overall balance of the game will slightly shift. At this early stage of EET, Sandrah stands out a bit exposed.

Refinement will be done when more feedback becomes available and more of the big mods (including IWD) become part of EET. But it will never be intended to make this a mod to play when you first enter the Baldur's Gate world, it will always be for those who want something different the x-time to play the game.

I've been reading this thread after installing and quickly trying Sandrah mod yesterday. Although I barely had time to scratch the surface of this extensive mod, I think it has very high potential. Yet, I run into a few things that let me think that some - if not all - of Sebastian's points are valid.

Hence my question to Roxanne: do you plan to take into account this remarks in the future, or do you consider Sandrah Saga mod as satisfying for you in regards of the issues raised by Sebastian?

I'm curious to know

I receive comments like this and I receive comments saying exactly the opposite.

*the mod is overpowered vs everything is too weak* - there are both extremes evenly distributed.

Means, that half of those who made the comments will be disappointed anyway.

There is always a matter of taste and different ways of enjoying the game by different people - if something is really wrong it will be fixed over time, but there is no reason to jump at every single word.

Sebastian comments represent a certain category of players, as such it is a valid statement and a good guidance for those who have similar expectations, others may think differently and interpret it accordingly.

Some players think everything is focussed on the main character and NPCs are just cannon fodder, while others take it as a party of six where everyone has a function and a role and you can only win it by working together. And the game serves both, even if not every single mod fits for all.

In the vein of different kinds of players, I found my impressions of the Sandrah Saga swing from disappointment to delight. All it took was for me to adopt a different mindset. Anyone of that certain type of player that Roxanne described, but who's willing to try something a little different, should read on.

I have to admit, I was disheartened -- before I started playing -- to see Sebastian's comments. My own expectations coming in seem like they'd be inline with his, and his critiques were ones that I'd be likely to make. Indeed, when I first started playing (I created a test character just to try to see if Sebastian's critiques had merit), I was very concerned. Events proceeded much as he described and Sandrah seemed to be destined for Mary Sue-dom.

However, I had already invest enough anticipation into this mod that I decided to keep going (with a more permanent Charname, not a generic fighter named "Test"), to give Sandrah the benefit of the doubt.

I'm very glad I did.

There is no doubt that the Sandrah Saga creates a different Baldur's Gate experience than vanilla. In particular, the assumption from vanilla is that the PC is the superstar. Period, the end. The PC has a divine spark, the PC is called "godchild" in the abyss -- no one else. All party NPCs are beneath the PC, in various ways. This is the story of your PC becoming a god. Two of the best NPC mods I've played so far are Finch for BG1, and Isra for BG1&2. They both maintain that balance and, while the NPCs are interesting individuals, they do not steal the show from the PC.

With Sandrah, I had to adjust that paradigm. If I viewed Sandrah as sort of a co-PC -- another superstar -- then her story seems to fit very well. My impression so far is that this story is equally about my PC and Sandrah. We are co-superstars. In this respect I have to say that so far, Sandrah is very well balanced, story wise, and a delight to play.

Mary Sue stuff is rife with controversy, so here's my opinion on the matter -- an obvious YMMV applies. A true Mary Sue would make the story all about her. Sandrah does not. This story is about you both. This is very different from base BG, but nevertheless it is not Mary Sue. Sandrah is a very special character, but so is the PC. She doesn't overshadow the PC, but she does cast an equally long shadow. When I viewed my game and the story in that light, I was able to enjoy it immensely. Exactly why her shadow is so long, I do not know, won't speculate here, and will play to find out.

I should say that I am very early on in my playthrough. I have rescued Dynaheir, but I haven't even cleared the Nashkel mines. If the storytelling trends continue as they are, then I anticipate this will be very different Baldur's Gate, but one I will love playing.

A note on power level: Sandrah, as well as some of the recommended mods (Dark Horizons, I'm looking at you), adds in some very powerful content, by vanilla standards. My characters are mostly early SoA equipped, while still in Chapter 2 -- purely from drops and treasure. It sounds horribly unbalanced, until I look at my character sheet and see that I'm level 6 already. That's one level shy of the start of SoA, and 2 levels shy of the expected level where this equipment would be more commonly available in BG2. Yes, much of BG1 will present less of a challenge. However, there's lots more content that will. I'm intrigued by this new balance. I don't call it unbalanced. Instead I'd call it differently balanced.

If anything, I'd say that it takes that power-gamey feel of late SoA and ToB, and imports it into BG1. There's something to be said for starting slow, and earning your untouchable-ness (it's what I love about the monk class -- weak at the start, godlike at the end). It's the way I normally prefer to play. However, I'm willing to give this a try. It's been pretty fun so far.

Kudos on a very elaborate mod, Roxanne. If trends continue, I'll enjoy it all the way up through ToB (and beyond!), and again once IWD-in-EET comes out

For everyone else, give Sandrah a shot, but make sure you understand what you're getting in to. It's a wild ride that's well worth taking.

Thanks for your alternative way of looking at it (comes quite close to my intent).

Just some remarks

- The fast level up at the start is not Sandrah, this is always with many mega mods in the game. EET is still requiring a mod that reduces/balances XP gain (like e.g. Aurora did in BGT, I think it is under development)

- Sandrah intentionally has this Mary Sue- like personality in the beginning, she is full of self-confidence etc. It is part of her development to lose this over time when she encounters the harsh truth at PC's side. She even gets you into trouble at times with her attitude. A character designed for such a long duration needs change/growth/development.

- The role of a co-PC is a bit exagerrated, actually the mod tries not to reserve this role for Sandrah but for all your party members (a number of them get additional contents as well). It is the PC + companions that are the key to success, each of them has their reason to be there, has some connection to the overall events..

Thanks for your alternative way of looking at it (comes quite close to my intent).

Just some remarks

- The fast level up at the start is not Sandrah, this is always with many mega mods in the game. EET is still requiring a mod that reduces/balances XP gain (like e.g. Aurora did in BGT, I think it is under development)

- Sandrah intentionally has this Mary Sue- like personality in the beginning, she is full of self-confidence etc. It is part of her development to lose this over time when she encounters the harsh truth at PC's side. She even gets you into trouble at times with her attitude. A character designed for such a long duration needs change/growth/development.

- The role of a co-PC is a bit exagerrated, actually the mod tries not to reserve this role for Sandrah but for all your party members (a number of them get additional contents as well). It is the PC + companions that are the key to success, each of them has their reason to be there, has some connection to the overall events..

-- Yes, the fast level up at start is even more my own fault, as I changed the default EET Tweaks setting of 75% XP to full 100% XP. I may end up regretting that choice, having underestimated the sheer volume of XP opportunities. Oh well, we'll see how it goes. I play a more melee focused party anyway, so access to new spell levels doesn't really change the game that much for me (other than more AoE spells). I prefer to not have to rest until the party is actually fatigued.

-- Regarding Sue-ness, I think your description indicates that Mary Sue is a complete misinterpretation of Sandrah. From what I understand, Sues are never intentionally so, by definition (unless they are satire, as in the original Lt Mary Sue). Their hallmark is usually the creator's ignorance of how they come across to any reader other then the author themselves. Sandrah is, as you've said, very sure of herself and her abilities. She comes across as a bit of a know-it-all at first, but that's part of her arc. I'm a huge fan of character growth from innocent/arrogant/naive/etc to a more wise and mature understanding of the world. I look forward to seeing it in action.

Also, I looked up Ariel Manx (Midnight). She was quite the hedonist! Nice to know that Sandrah comes by it honestly I feel like I understand her character more. Elements that originally seemed out of place make more sense now. I hope Sandrah addresses it with the PC at some point, too, as it was jarring the first time Sandrah engaged in "extracurricular activities".

Thanks to your feedback on the amount of XP in BG1, I've changed the BWS default recommendations to reduce XP by a further 25%.

Now, a huge chunk of this was Sandrah Saga specific, afaik.

Spoiler tags, because players may want to just discover these things for themselves

Spoiler

In the Temple of Lathander map, outside Beregost, there's an extra cave with about 10,000 xp worth of creatures in it (mostly sword spiders). Thanks to the power of Sandrah, Haiss, and Morwen (NPC from Dark Horizons) I was able to handle them all easily, before I even set foot south of Beregost.

Most of it was from a quest I got after entering Nashkell (chapter 2), which sent me up against a mandatory Death Knight (15,000xp) that thankfully only meleed. By this time I had Minsc and Isra smashing and slicing, so I was pretty beefy. Inside a dungeon on the way to the Gnoll Stronghold for this quest, I took out 4 more Death Knights (that DID cast nasty spells, several reloads needed for each) worth 10,000xp each. The cadre of Vampiric Wolves stocking the place seemed like an afterthought at that point. Remember when they were among the more feared foes in BG1?

So that's a total of about 75,000xp beyond vanilla, just from Sandrah, and only split between 3 (spiders) or 5 (rest) characters. That's why I was so high level before Nashkell mines.

Though, if one is so inclined, there are plenty of flesh golems, sirines, vampiric wolves, and basilisks available before Nashkell -- even in vanilla -- if you really work hard to avoid the main path

Thanks to your feedback on the amount of XP in BG1, I've changed the BWS default recommendations to reduce XP by a further 25%.

Now, a huge chunk of this was Sandrah Saga specific, afaik.

Spoiler tags, because players may want to just discover these things for themselves

Spoiler

In the Temple of Lathander map, outside Beregost, there's an extra cave with about 10,000 xp worth of creatures in it (mostly sword spiders). Thanks to the power of Sandrah, Haiss, and Morwen (NPC from Dark Horizons) I was able to handle them all easily, before I even set foot south of Beregost.

This is NTotSC not Sandrah, (Even if she makes a comment on the events).

Most of it was from a quest I got after entering Nashkell (chapter 2), which sent me up against a mandatory Death Knight (15,000xp) that thankfully only meleed. By this time I had Minsc and Isra smashing and slicing, so I was pretty beefy. Inside a dungeon on the way to the Gnoll Stronghold for this quest, I took out 4 more Death Knights (that DID cast nasty spells, several reloads needed for each) worth 10,000xp each. The cadre of Vampiric Wolves stocking the place seemed like an afterthought at that point. Remember when they were among the more feared foes in BG1?

Is this the one from Sandrah's scroll quest or another I do not know? Hard to say from your description. If it is Sandrah's cave, then actually you do not even need to fight/kill them (except for the first one who guards the waterfall). All others are optional in case you are interested in the loot they guard. (Some of which is even just garbage since unusable by mortals).

So that's a total of about 75,000xp beyond vanilla, just from Sandrah, and only split between 3 (spiders) or 5 (rest) characters. That's why I was so high level before Nashkell mines.

Though, if one is so inclined, there are plenty of flesh golems, sirines, vampiric wolves, and basilisks available before Nashkell -- even in vanilla -- if you really work hard to avoid the main path

None of those are from Sandrah. They are either vanilla, NTotSC or Siren's Call.

NB - even if those are in main areas, they are still optional encounters that you can do when and if you want, none of them blocks your way to any vanilla quest.

The amount of extra XP, items, etc gained in mega-mod installations is an issue that is not new and has been worked on in old BGT as well. It is not an issue for a single mod.

There has been (and still ongoing) discussion of how to handle it, especially in the light of IWD-in-EET maybe added in the future. It was consensus among modmakers and the makers of EET that balancing of mega-mod installations be done by a dedicated component rather than by each mod trying to tinker with it.

This makes sense to me from the idea of an overall balancing.

Consequently the XP that can be gained from the extra stuff in my mod is aligned to the vanilla standard rather then trying to do this balancing beforehand. I understand this as the prerequisite for a balancing mod still to come.

PS - In my current playthrough with all the compatible mods installed I am about to enter Suldanessalar soon with a party that is around level 15 - 16 at average (only PC single class fighter is already 19 - Sandrah who has been in the party at all times from day 1 on is 16/16). After all they have faced and are still to face, that is not TOO unreasonable.

PPS -

a quest I got after entering Nashkell (chapter 2)

This is not really a reference since you can either go to Nashkel on a direct trail from the start (even skipping FAI), just always travelling south or you can explore all the maps except Cloakwood and Baldur's Gate before even entering Nashkel, just to name two extremes...i.e. even without any mod installed you can have a level 5-6 party already when you enter the mines and make that a laugh.

Question re Imoen. If I start her as a thief and than dual her over to mage a few levels down the track would that mean you'd miss the quests compared to if you went m/t or mage at the start?

Yes.

(The quests start quite early and run across several chapters, it normally starts before you have a chance to dual class her, besides the fact that it is not foreseeable if you do it or not or early or late.)

Thanks to your feedback on the amount of XP in BG1, I've changed the BWS default recommendations to reduce XP by a further 25%.

Now, a huge chunk of this was Sandrah Saga specific, afaik.

Spoiler tags, because players may want to just discover these things for themselves

Spoiler

In the Temple of Lathander map, outside Beregost, there's an extra cave with about 10,000 xp worth of creatures in it (mostly sword spiders). Thanks to the power of Sandrah, Haiss, and Morwen (NPC from Dark Horizons) I was able to handle them all easily, before I even set foot south of Beregost.

This is NTotSC not Sandrah, (Even if she makes a comment on the events).

Most of it was from a quest I got after entering Nashkell (chapter 2), which sent me up against a mandatory Death Knight (15,000xp) that thankfully only meleed. By this time I had Minsc and Isra smashing and slicing, so I was pretty beefy. Inside a dungeon on the way to the Gnoll Stronghold for this quest, I took out 4 more Death Knights (that DID cast nasty spells, several reloads needed for each) worth 10,000xp each. The cadre of Vampiric Wolves stocking the place seemed like an afterthought at that point. Remember when they were among the more feared foes in BG1?

Is this the one from Sandrah's scroll quest or another I do not know? Hard to say from your description. If it is Sandrah's cave, then actually you do not even need to fight/kill them (except for the first one who guards the waterfall). All others are optional in case you are interested in the loot they guard. (Some of which is even just garbage since unusable by mortals).

So that's a total of about 75,000xp beyond vanilla, just from Sandrah, and only split between 3 (spiders) or 5 (rest) characters. That's why I was so high level before Nashkell mines.

Though, if one is so inclined, there are plenty of flesh golems, sirines, vampiric wolves, and basilisks available before Nashkell -- even in vanilla -- if you really work hard to avoid the main path

None of those are from Sandrah. They are either vanilla, NTotSC or Siren's Call.

NB - even if those are in main areas, they are still optional encounters that you can do when and if you want, none of them blocks your way to any vanilla quest.

Interesting. Good job in integrating the NTOTSC stuff into your mod. I look forward to seeing more of it.

I was referring to the scroll quest, yes. Incidentally, I was unclear as to whether I was allowed to wait for that quest. The context -- reason why the quest exists -- made it seem rather urgent. On the other hand, the BG games generally allow you to take as long as you please to complete quests. There are a few exceptions -- key party NPCs may depart if you procrastinate too much, Werewolf Island has you turn if you forget to kill your employer in Ulgoth's Beard, and the very explicit poisoning quest in Baldur's Gate proper. However, most are like rescuing Imoen in BG2 -- wait for months while I dither about doing other things.

How does the Sandrah Saga approach timing in quests? Is it done organically, based on implied urgency of the request? Is there a blanket "take all the time you want" to all of Sandrah's events? If you mix it up, are you direct and obvious about it? i.e. Poisoning quest, comments from NPCs, etc.

Sure the death knights were optional, but c'mon, what am I gonna do, NOT see if I can take 'em out?

In that vein, the Sirens, vamp wolves, golems, etc are not on the direct line path between goalposts in vanilla -- that is true. However, clearing out all possible encounters and quests has always been a part of every game I've ever played. Whether you have to fight them on the way, or seek them out is largely irrelevant to me (and I would assume the vast majority of players). They are as much a part of the expected vanilla XP total as Mulahey and Davaeorn. I know there are some players out there that stick to only mainline stuff and blitz through a 100 hour potential game in about 10 hours. I've never understood that mentality.

The amount of extra XP, items, etc gained in mega-mod installations is an issue that is not new and has been worked on in old BGT as well. It is not an issue for a single mod.

There has been (and still ongoing) discussion of how to handle it, especially in the light of IWD-in-EET maybe added in the future. It was consensus among modmakers and the makers of EET that balancing of mega-mod installations be done by a dedicated component rather than by each mod trying to tinker with it.

This makes sense to me from the idea of an overall balancing.

Consequently the XP that can be gained from the extra stuff in my mod is aligned to the vanilla standard rather then trying to do this balancing beforehand. I understand this as the prerequisite for a balancing mod still to come.

PS - In my current playthrough with all the compatible mods installed I am about to enter Suldanessalar soon with a party that is around level 15 - 16 at average (only PC single class fighter is already 19 - Sandrah who has been in the party at all times from day 1 on is 16/16). After all they have faced and are still to face, that is not TOO unreasonable.

PPS -

a quest I got after entering Nashkell (chapter 2)

This is not really a reference since you can either go to Nashkel on a direct trail from the start (even skipping FAI), just always travelling south or you can explore all the maps except Cloakwood and Baldur's Gate before even entering Nashkel, just to name two extremes...i.e. even without any mod installed you can have a level 5-6 party already when you enter the mines and make that a laugh.

Regarding reference point (I need to figure out how to quote only a single paragraph, and not the whole post)

Very good point. You can do almost all of the outdoor areas before reaching Nashkell. In this case I had explored the line between FAI and Nashkell, plus the Temple. Your point about the mines is practically every BG game I play. I like to pick up Minsc, but if I go right to the mines, exit the natural exit in the tomb area, hit up the gibberling lair area on the way back, and take Samuel to the FAI, then Minsc tends to berserk on me before I can reach the Gnoll stronghold. I even had it happen once because of a random encounter while traveling from the Dryad Spring map to the stronghold.

Any chance you have anything in your mod pack that turns off his auto-berserk if you procrastinate? I'd like to be able to NOT have to wait until after doing all of the Dynahier/Brage loop of areas before tackling the mines, like I have to do every game, if I want to get Minsc right away.

Any chance you have anything in your mod pack that turns off his auto-berserk if you procrastinate?

I am afraid that the answer is *no*. I am not even sure that I know what the issue is. (I admit Minsc is rarely in my party in BG1, if ever.)

PS - maybe you refer to this when Minsc joins you at Nashkel

Spoiler

RevealAreaOnMap("BG5100") >>>> Gnoll Stronghold map is shownSetGlobalTimer("Minsc","GLOBAL",TEN_DAYS) >>>> Timer is set for Minsc to complain, even if that seems to be ineffective in EET?JoinParty()

That is exactly what I'm talking about! Why would it be ineffective in EET?

If it stands, I can edit it in Near Infinity, as I understand things. Just discovered Near Infinity, and am exploring the many ways I can get in trouble with it.

I think I can change TEN_DAYS to, say, TWENTY_DAYS. Is that how it all works?

If so, what's the file to edit? Or is it a Strref search?

Or could I edit, or remove the global value for him in EE Keeper? Options, options, options....

Sorry, still learning

(I think I'm wearing out the '?' key on my keyboard)

Found it in Minsc.dlg in override. Now to test...

If you use NI, you can delete it there in Minsc.dlg (it appears several times, for all the several dialog optons). In NI you select the dialogue, you go to *edit* view - you see a list of the components of the dialogue. You go to the lower end where ACTIONS are listed. You find a few of those TEN_DAYS and you may just delete them in each of the actions. When deleting it in a line click update before you go to the next entry. When all is fone click save.

That is exactly what I'm talking about! Why would it be ineffective in EET?

Means I found that the timer is set but I found no script or dialogue that ever evaluates it and triggers any actions (maybe a mod - not mine - disabled it in my game?)