from National Speed Sport News, Nov.19,2008 edition. Some actual news. The last line is rather unusual since there has been detailed drawings & plans laid out in the Indianapolis Star at least a year ago, with what I understood were, with full endorsement from the City of Speedway. We now return to the regular slag off.

"NASCAR has about 5 times the depth of field of the irl, in a class of cars far more difficult to drive that a Dallara with barn doors attached to it and a spec engine hung off the back." whitewaterMkII

No disrepect, but I hadn't heard or read about the test(s) in which you were called in to do this evaluation. If you've driven both types of cars in anger at the same circuits, I'm positive that this group would be most interested in the full story, photos, data, etc.. I'll eagerly await.

Originally posted by B Squared "NASCAR has about 5 times the depth of field of the irl, in a class of cars far more difficult to drive that a Dallara with barn doors attached to it and a spec engine hung off the back." whitewaterMkII

No disrepect, but I hadn't heard or read about the test(s) in which you were called in to do this evaluation. If you've driven both types of cars in anger at the same circuits, I'm positive that this group would be most interested in the full story, photos, data, etc.. I'll eagerly await.

Brian

I haven't driven them either Brian, but the general consensus seems to be that the COT is a bear to deal with. Think of the comments from Gordon, Stewart, Burton, Kyle (remember the ringing endorsement he gave it after he scored the COT's first win?), etc. Likewise, several people, notably Mario, have suggested that the best way to improve the IndyCar is to remove downforce and add power. Montoya famously, after he won Indy, compared the car to a F3 car. While I understand the point you're trying to make, and there is a certain arrogance occasionally on the board about what driving these cars must be like from folks who simply have no idea, I don't think Whitewater's talking out of his a** this morning.

Mark - I certainly understand your point, but it just gets absurd in that so many here seem to think that they'd be at the top of the charts if given the chance. Forget the physicality in driving one of these things. Let's look at the mental aspect of it. How many are going to be able to deal with the mental intensity of having yourself surrounded for the length of a race by equally easy to drive 200+MPH missles that will maim or kill you or others in a heartbeat if one of the pack makes a mistake? I don't care how easy you or others thinks this is, these drivers, each & every one deserves a bit of respect. There seems to be little to be found here. At one point in my life, I figured that I'd be the fastest of the fast if only for money or opportunity. I guess my advancing years have made me wake up to the reality that it takes a special type of person to strap one of these machines on, no matter how easy it may seem to us bench racing wankers.

I think she is being assertive. She was also the highest placed American driver in the IRL this season.

She also has to put up with men that see a female as "the little woman". She is small and petite but her stature is far bigger.

Go Danica!

Assertive? Really?

If your Boss offered you training in an area where you were particularly weak...would you take the training or refuse? You'd be best to take the training. Unless of course you feared that you would fail the training...

And please don't play the gender card. It's old. And pointless. Her male equivalent is Bruno Junquera and I despise him equally as Danica. They have the same bitchy, i did nothing wrong, the other guy's an idiot personality.

If your Boss offered you training in an area where you were particularly weak...would you take the training or refuse? You'd be best to take the training. Unless of course you feared that you would fail the training...

And please don't play the gender card. It's old. And pointless. Her male equivalent is Bruno Junquera and I despise him equally as Danica. They have the same bitchy, i did nothing wrong, the other guy's an idiot personality.

CC

Or there was the usual political intrigue that exists where Marco and anyone else is involved at AGR.

So before trumpeting view it from a well known perspective.

Anyone familiar with Danica would agree that simply refusing to race is not her way.

If your Boss offered you training in an area where you were particularly weak...would you take the training or refuse? You'd be best to take the training. Unless of course you feared that you would fail the training...

And please don't play the gender card. It's old. And pointless. Her male equivalent is Bruno Junquera and I despise him equally as Danica. They have the same bitchy, i did nothing wrong, the other guy's an idiot personality.

CC

And what if your boss asked you to do this over your holidays and weekends without extra pay?

Which I guess leads to an interesting question about the contracts. Is the contract to race for AGR? Or to race IndyCars for AGR? When Marco, HCN, etc. moonlight in the ALMS, are they paid extra? Anyone know?

Putting my professional hat on, the fact that Patrick evidently has the ability to say "no thanks" suggests that she has no contractual obligation to race in A1GP, or we'd be reading about breach of contract, not bad manners. The fact that the refusal has generated bad feeling, and Miller's recent report is not the first I'd read of it, suggests that some unwritten understanding has been violated; as we say in the trade, a violation not of the letter of the law but the spirit of the law. For instance, an understood professional obligation to "be all you can be" for your team or sponsors--if DP is better on road courses and thus a more complete racer, it's better for Motorola. I know several who post have insider knowledge, some of it even recent, of how racing teams are run. Anybody?

It's called a salaried position. I've worked 100's if not 1000's of hours of unpaid O/T on weekends and government holidays.

CC

I don't doubt that. However, racing drivers are not employees...they are (highly paid) contractors. When a driver negotiates a contract with a team, there are mutually agreed upon terms regarding what the driver is expected to do. There could be something about having to attend a set number of sponsor functions, something about doing a certain amount of car testing, something about race weekend obligations, etc.

In Danica Patrick's case, I would be very suprised if there was something about having to fulfill racing obligations for AGR in anything besides Indycar. Now AGR is asking that she race in A1GP - obstensably to improve her race craft. Never mind that these are very different cars to what she is currently driving and the questionable benefit the experience would have on her ability to drive Indycars...she rightly sees this as an additional term that was not previously agreed when she signed her contract with AGR.

While some may say that any extra driving a driver can do would be good for them, who do you think benefits more from having her race A1GP - the team (and their A1GP operation) or Danica Patrick?

Originally posted by j madra
[B]In Danica Patrick's case, I would be very suprised if there was something about having to fulfill racing obligations for AGR in anything besides Indycar. Now AGR is asking that she race in A1GP - obstensably to improve her race craft. Never mind that these are very different cars to what she is currently driving and the questionable benefit the experience would have on her ability to drive Indycars...she rightly sees this as an additional term that was not previously agreed when she signed her contract with AGR.

It's sad and a far cry from the days when you had Clark, Hill, Andretti et al going out of their way to race in lots of disciplines, because they loved to race. Danica has the opportunity to race in an international series with what are essentially F1-"lite" cars and she refuses? I thought racing drivers were supposed to love racing. Obviously some see it as more of a chore.

Depending on your situation I could understand why you wouldn't want to distract yourself with other activities that would require a fairly serious effort. It's not like doing 'just' the 24 hours of Daytona because nothing else is going on.

It's sad and a far cry from the days when you had Clark, Hill, Andretti et al going out of their way to race in lots of disciplines, because they loved to race. Danica has the opportunity to race in an international series with what are essentially F1-"lite" cars and she refuses? I thought racing drivers were supposed to love racing. Obviously some see it as more of a chore.

Those were all racers

Danica is a "personality" who happens to be racing at the moment. I can very easily see her filling a time slot right behind Paris Hilton in a few years.

Originally posted by j madra I don't doubt that. However, racing drivers are not employees...they are (highly paid) contractors. When a driver negotiates a contract with a team, there are mutually agreed upon terms regarding what the driver is expected to do. There could be something about having to attend a set number of sponsor functions, something about doing a certain amount of car testing, something about race weekend obligations, etc.

Agreed. So we're assuming that when HCN and Briscoe race at Petit LeMans, that's part of their contract? If so, end of story, and Robin Miller's just stirring it up on a slow news day. If not, ...

...she rightly sees this as an additional term that was not previously agreed when she signed her contract with AGR.

While some may say that any extra driving a driver can do would be good for them, who do you think benefits more from having her race A1GP - the team (and their A1GP operation) or Danica Patrick?

I'm not sure it's zero sum. Even so, ultimately the question is not who benefits more. It's whether asserting a desire to not race A1GP is worth the bad feeling it may be generating with your employer, contract or no. What is to be won here? If she performs well next season, maybe nobody will care. But if she continues to struggle, particularly on road courses, in what is the last year of her contract, what has she achieved?

1. She's not a better driver.2. She's demonstrated an unwillingness to listen to her employer's advice about improving her skills.3. She's going into contract negotiations with other teams holding what cards? The only move up is to TCGR or Penske, both of whom employ drivers who finish higher than her in the points. Ganassi's racers sub occasionally for his sports car team. So do Penske's. Are they going to be impressed with this?

She's certainly entitled to stand on her rights. But to "win" in this situation, it's strikes me that she's going to need to show marked improvement next year. And she's turned down what the boss thinks is a good way to do it. I can conceive of drivers who could win that little internal power play. I'm not sure she's attained that stature yet.

She may simply find what many before her have found--it's possible to win and lose a contract dispute. Simultaneously.

Cavin's Q & A today in the Indianapolis Star refers to a portion of last weeks' radio show concerning Marty Roth. Did anyone hear the show? What's the story with why Roth left IndyCar, if it's not the "IndyCar wouldn't renew his license" version?

Danica is a "personality" who happens to be racing at the moment. I can very easily see her filling a time slot right behind Paris Hilton in a few years.

She's not Paris Hilton--Danica has talent. But this does seem eerily familiar. Let's see:

1. Talented, but not as talented as she thinks.2. Eventually turns on her benefactors, in messy public disputes.3. Not afraid to act as an "attack dog" when necessary.4. Possesses the ability to energize people who otherwise couldn't care less about her occupation.5. Appreciated by a number of persons who otherwise don't follow her activity because she's "hot."

Originally posted by red stick Cavin's Q & A today in the Indianapolis Star refers to a portion of last weeks' radio show concerning Marty Roth. Did anyone hear the show? What's the story with why Roth left IndyCar, if it's not the "IndyCar wouldn't renew his license" version?

Barnhardt essentially says that no one has talked to Marty since Detroit, when they asked him to sit out the race. No one's asked him to stay or leave, which leads me to believe that Marty is welcome to race.

Marty's side of the story is that the IRL offered him a limited, oval-only + Indy schedule.

My belief is that Marty's team voiced opinion about wanting a real driver in the seat and Marty's pride (as usual) got in the way. Then he decides to take his ball and go home.

Originally posted by qwazy My belief is that Marty's team voiced opinion about wanting a real driver in the seat and Marty's pride (as usual) got in the way. Then he decides to take his ball and go home.

I don't see a problem with it, it's his money.The only problem I see with the whole thing is he got a licence to begin with, then again the numbers of Indy 500 ridebuyers is long and (in)glorius. The problem with Marty is he couldn't stop at just being a field filler at the i500 once a year.

I don't see a problem with it, it's his money.The only problem I see with the whole thing is he got a licence to begin with, then again the numbers of Indy 500 ridebuyers is long and (in)glorius. The problem with Marty is he couldn't stop at just being a field filler at the i500 once a year.

I don't see a problem with it either. I just think it's a bit of a shame that he couldn't take a step back and realize that maybe he'd be best suited as a team owner and only a team owner.

We're losing a person who seems passionate about American Open-Wheel racing and that's a shame. But by the way he's acted (selfish, somewhat petty), perhaps the biggest loss is his team and car(s) he put on the grid and not so much Marty, himself.

Originally posted by qwazy Barnhardt essentially says that no one has talked to Marty since Detroit, when they asked him to sit out the race. No one's asked him to stay or leave, which leads me to believe that Marty is welcome to race.

Marty's side of the story is that the IRL offered him a limited, oval-only + Indy schedule.

My belief is that Marty's team voiced opinion about wanting a real driver in the seat and Marty's pride (as usual) got in the way. Then he decides to take his ball and go home.

Thanks for the answer. I agree with you that, if he decides to quit, it's a shame to lose someone with enough love for the sport to use his own money, start his own team, and, at least for part of the season, give an up-and-comer like Jay Howard a drive.

Maybe if he can't sell his equipment he'll reconsider. Lot of good drivers potentially available.

Not sure if you know, but all the Trackside podcasts are available on iTunes and on the website. It's great to go back and listen to some of the interviews. Pretty impressive they've been able to have the people on that they have!

...I have respect for a guy like Marty who dropped his own dime fulfilling a passion and love in owning & driving his own team. And you have to give some respect for a guy that wasn't a quitter in spite of being drastically off the pace in most races. However being drastically off the pace also presented him as a hazard to the other drivers 'racing' despite his couple of impressive qualifying perfromances. He tried but came up short as a competitive Indycar driver however that doesn't mean he couldn't be a successful team owner giving other drivers a shot behind the wheel.

If Marty still feels the need to drive there's always the Firestone Indy Lights Series where drivers such as Marty and Milka really belong. Technically this is supposed to be the series where drivers hone their skills and demonstrate that they're qualified to drive in the Indycar Series,...especially drivers that may be lacking experience.

Originally posted by pingu666 i dont think he was that bad, slow yes, but atleast he didnt wreck into everyone all the damn time. heck marty roth and milka are closer to us than dixon ;)

Actually Marty did wreck several times ruining practice and qualifying sessions.

At Detroit he was further from Milka in Qualifying than Milka was to the Pole.

I actually think Milka's putting in the effort, she's become a reasonably competent oval racer now, the last round showed this. She's trying if nothing else and she's not wrecking half as much. On road courses she's bad but leagues ahead of Roth.

And she threatened to punch Danica.

Win a race rather obviously.....

The half field invitational at Motegi probably doesn't count for this analysis.

Originally posted by qwazy Not sure if you know, but all the Trackside podcasts are available on iTunes and on the website. It's great to go back and listen to some of the interviews. Pretty impressive they've been able to have the people on that they have!

A little less than half the field was composed of women, a lot of them finished in front of me.

Maybe, at my advanced age, I'm the Marty Roth of long distance running ??
Marty does his best and spends his own dime while doing so, I think given the chance, he would tell the collective negative posters, who feel they can comment on his ability, to collectively F*ck themselves!

..... and what would this place be without the morons coming up with cute lines and more contrivances on their way to yet more Danica bashing !

Did you start in front row of the race and get in the way of faster competitors? I have nothing against rich guys going racing (shit if it wasn't for rich guys, there wouldn't be a lot of racing), it's just that in a professional single seat open-wheel series, should consist of professional drivers.

If Roth really wants to race that badly, he should do Indy Lights, Atlantics, or the best option GT3 in ALMS. In ALMS he'd have a co-driver who could balance him out, and the learning curve wouldn't be nearly as steep.

Indeed, virtually all my problems with Danica are gender neutral. Minus her ability to say "Don't treat me like a woman I'm a racer!", then pose half naked for the next person to ask a minute later.

Plus Sarah Fisher is about my favourite person in the series, everything good you can say about Marty Roth making the effort to run his own car applies to her, plus talent and a massively infectious enthusiasm for just going racing.

Can you imagine Sarah turning down that gift AGR drive in A1?

Originally posted by Keir I ran the Philidelphia Marathon this past Sunday, I finished.

A little less than half the field was composed of women, a lot of them finished in front of me.

Maybe, at my advanced age, I'm the Marty Roth of long distance running ??Marty does his best and spends his own dime while doing so, I think given the chance, he would tell the collective negative posters, who feel they can comment on his ability, to collectively F*ck themselves!

..... and what would this place be without the morons coming up with cute lines and more contrivances on their way to yet more Danica bashing !

It is unlikely that you losing concentration in your marathon will kill someone. Marty was actively dangerous.

The AutoWeek/Championship Auto Racing Auxiliary charity auction ends December 1, and there are a few interesting items being offered, from drivers like Rick Mears, Scott Dixon, Bobby Rahal, Scott Pruett, Danica Patrick, and Sebastien Bourdais. For Champ Car fans, there's even a set of 2007 tickets autographed by the race winners.

Marco Andretti still hasn't signed a contract to remain an Indy-car driver at Andretti Green Racing, but there is no reason for concern, his agent said.

Andretti, 21, will sign with his father's team once the sponsorship program for the No. 26 car gets resolved, according to John Caponigro, president of Sports Management Network.

"It's not an issue being (at AGR) or not being there; it's the dough and all," Caponigro said. "Once the sponsorship gets lined up, we'll get it done."

Andretti's three seasons in the IndyCar Series have been spent with a variety of financial backers, led by Blockbuster.

Caponigro said the duration of Andretti's next contract will depend on the value of the sponsorship package.

"If it's low enough, I don't want to do a multiyear (contract)," he said. "If it's higher, well, that's a different dynamic."

Andretti could not be reached for comment, but Caponigro said the third-generation racer is not considering a move to another series.

Since the IndyCar Series finished for the season, Andretti is sharing driving duties for AGR's A-1 Grand Prix program.

RLR also seeking sponsor
Rahal Letterman Racing is more in limbo than AGR, but it is similarly making plans to return to the IndyCar Series in 2009.

At issue is the primary sponsorship of the No. 17 car, which has been ethanol since the start of the 2006 season.

That backing is in question now that the Indy Racing League has switched to a Brazilian-based company to coordinate its fuel.

Until the sponsor is resolved, the team owned by Bobby Rahal and David Letterman can't secure its driver, Ryan Hunter-Reay, who had a breakout season this year and won at Watkins Glen (N.Y.) International.

"We've got cars and we've got people; we just haven't got (a sponsorship) program yet," said the team's general manager, Scott Roembke. "We're working hard at it, though."

Originally posted by Dudley Plus Sarah Fisher is about my favourite person in the series, everything good you can say about Marty Roth making the effort to run his own car applies to her, plus talent and a massively infectious enthusiasm for just going racing.

Can you imagine Sarah turning down that gift AGR drive in A1?

If I was Michael I'd offer her the drive immediately. She's talented and it will also let Danica know that she's not irreplaceable.

Indy Racing League president of competition Brian Barnhart has admitted that next year's IndyCar Series is likely to see smaller grids - and said he was frustrated that the US open wheel reunification had coincided with an economic downturn.

The merged IndyCar championship featured 26-car fields for most of 2008, but many teams are finding it difficult to raise sponsorship for next season.

KV Racing's future is in doubt as the loss of the Surfers Paradise race is set to lead to main sponsor Craig Gore's departure, Rahal Letterman Racing's main backer Ethanol is reportedly unlikely to return, and Newman/Haas/Lanigan have informed Justin Wilson that they might have to scale back to a single-car team.

Barnhart said that IndyCar racing deserved to be in buoyant shape given reunification and breakthrough events such as Danica Patrick and Graham Rahal's maiden victories, and that the global economic problems had come at a very bad time for the series.

"With all of those events creating positive momentum, it's just amazing the bad timing that we have to be facing the world economic situation that we're facing," he told Indianapolis radio station 1070 The Fan.

"That's going to affect not just the smaller teams, but the bigger teams. While we're getting a sense from KV, Newman/Haas, and everyone who contested this season, of how badly they want to continue in 2009, we have a full understanding that everyone is facing some significant economic challenges."

He hopes that the series will only lose a handful of teams.

"I don't know that we could come back and run 26 full-time, just based on the economics we're seeing worldwide," said Barnhart.

"I would expect some sort of reduction, we're certainly hoping for a minimal one. I think something in the 22-24 range, I'd be tickled with."

But despite his concerns over the teams' financial situation, Barnhart ruled out following NASCAR's example and banning private testing, although he intimated that restrictions would be introduced.

"Cutting private testing completely away could have a different effect on our series than it does in Cup," Barnhart said.

"We're trying to balance sustainability of our existing owners with attracting new owners and new drivers. If a new team or a rookie driver is trying to come to your series and isn't allowed to test, there's not much likelihood that they're going to join your series. When you're sitting on 43-plus cars, like Cup is, that's probably not a situation they're too worried about, so a ban on testing may work for them.

"We'll probably have some form of testing, but it will certainly be controlled in 2009."

The IndyCar team owners recently held a meeting in Las Vegas to discuss their concerns about costs and the economy, and Barnhart said the IRL welcomed their input.

"We've had a couple of conversations and it's been very productive," he said. "We've got an open mind and are listening to what they have to say. The intentions are good, and that's the most important aspect. They're looking at things that are truly in the best interests of the series."