Tead Off wrote:Very good points, Gingko. Here in SE Asia, the emigrant Chinese are quite different from N. America. In N. America, they face a different kind of brainwashing than what goes on here.

You sounded like a colonial plantation manager Tead... Seriously

I don't know much about the US, but the brainwashing/state propaganda that has been going on here in Thailand for decades is quite overwhelming, and almost unbearable. Not all countries are free...

Wasn't saying one was better than the other, just different. In the U.S., there is more of a disconnect from the country of origin. I am eastern European by descent. I knew nothing of my origin growing up. My wife is Cantonese, ABC. She didn't even learn Cantonese growing up yet her parents are both Mandarin and Cantonese speakers. This was within one generation.

Many young Thai Chinese have very little idea about their heritage. Part reason for this was somewhat forced assimilation during the communist insurgency days in the 60's to the 80's. Advantage is that here in SEA people of Chinese descent are more assimilated than in any other country, and whatever other social and political problems Thailand has - anti-Chinese riots such as happened in Indonesia, and could also happen in Malaysia, are here quite unthinkable. Disadvantage is obvious, while in neighboring Malaysia, Chinese culture is blooming, especially also tea culture, here is a bit of a cultural wasteland, especially in terms of tea culture.

Naturally, living here in Bangkok, i can't have any opinion on this subject...

Somewhat encouraging, and at the same time frightening, is that now more and more people here are of the same opinion, and have less and less inhibitions to openly state their views. This is of course leads to more arrests, and convictions (lese majeste trials have a 95 % or so conviction rate... ).

Naturally, living here in Bangkok, i can't have any opinion on this subject...

Somewhat encouraging, and at the same time frightening, is that now more and more people here are of the same opinion, and have less and less inhibitions to openly state their views. This is of course leads to more arrests, and convictions (lese majeste trials have a 95 % or so conviction rate... ).

Also more amnesties for the offenders. It's out in the open and actually openly discussed more than people realize. It will change for sure.

Naturally, living here in Bangkok, i can't have any opinion on this subject...

Somewhat encouraging, and at the same time frightening, is that now more and more people here are of the same opinion, and have less and less inhibitions to openly state their views. This is of course leads to more arrests, and convictions (lese majeste trials have a 95 % or so conviction rate... ).

Also more amnesties for the offenders. It's out in the open and actually openly discussed more than people realize. It will change for sure.

There is hardly any public space for substantial discussion on the subject and its implications. Most discussions are only in the informal sectors.As to amnesties - they are nowadays slower than ever before. In many cases even bail is not granted. I am sure you are aware of the recent Ah Gong case - the grandfather who died in prison, and was most definitely not guilty.People accused have to declare themselves guilty, if they plan on being free any time soon. Already sentencing makes a difference of years if you contest the charges, and appeals take even more years. And as long as one appeals, he/she cannot ask for amnesty either. That is why you have an in any other crime almost unheard of 90 something % conviction rate.

As to changes to the lese majeste laws - i don't see them coming anytime soon. Nitirat - the "enlightened jurists", which has advocated reforms of the laws, is accused by military, PAD and Democrat Party as "anti-monarchist". One of the groups leaders - Worajet, a lecturer at Thammasat University - was even beaten up by hired goons half a year ago.

Nobody is being arrested or beaten here on TeaChat, however perhaps we could get back to the actual TEA topic as discussions on politics (and governement) rarely end well on internet forums such as TeaChat.

Plus they are technically not permitted on TeaChat for this reason. TeaChat is an oasis ...

To me the ratio question is more open to opinion than to actual 'rules' I see them like 'guidelines'. For example; when I started drinking tea, I followed the 5-8gm per 4oz of water that most companies recommend to their clients. As time as gone by, I have my on 'ratio' which consists more on 'What has worked for me' more than a formula. I do try to avoid stuffing my pot or gaiwan, since for me this has proven in extremely overpowering and astringent tea.

BUT, I have done so. Specially at work. I have 'cheaper' or 'bad' Oolongs that I just brew to have something good happening through the day. rather than to worry about actual ratios since the work load of the day won allow me to 'properly' prepare my tea.

When people ask me I just give them what I consider the 'general guideline' and then say 'but make sure to experiment. trial and error are your teachers!'

Gongfucha isn't just set-up of tea but also perfect set-up of teawares

, another quote from late-Qing has

Taiwan people's Chadao, same as Guangdong/Fujian people, Mengchen pot/Ruoshen cup/Wuyi tea, if lacks either of em, not proud to treat guests

From what I understand by records, Gongfucha doesn't seem to apply to every people for everyday teas, but rather high-upper classes and special occasion, so went Weng Hui-dong's descriptions.

High-quality tea, expensive teawares (Yixing Zhuni, Jingdezhen cup etc)..so if bitter tastes come from careless treatment, then it may be different interpretation of past, liking or not is irrelevant related to past as well, unless one needs to argue different one's palate since Chaozhou people like it to degree.

Sure, but isn't that one reason there are so many locally made (non-Yixing) pots with the Mengchen seal? I think when these old documents say "the cups must be 'ruoshen', the pot must be 'mengchen', etc., they are not necessarily saying that everyone could afford and use these authentic items. And, my understanding is that it was kind of understood that 'mengchen' and 'ruoshen' are kind of generic terms for 'small earthenware teapot' and 'small porcelain cup' -- much as we'd say 'Kleenex' instead of 'white disposable tissue'.

As with now, folks who couldn't obtain them, or couldn't afford them, presumably used knock-offs. I am not a Chinese history expert by any stretch of the imagination (paging Professor Z to the white courtesy phone), but I believe there was already some kind of middle class (merchants, artisans, etc.) by that time period.

One article I have (from Appreciation of Zisha Teapots (砂壺匯赏), Dynasty Culture and Art Publishing House, Hong Kong, p41 in the English version) says:

Although the congou [read gongfu] ceremony wasn't finalized before that period, once formed it spread extremely fast because people living in Chaoshan had the habit of tea-drinking since the Song Dynasty (960-1279). In the Min Dynasty, the custom of tea-drinking had extended to all the ranks and fields; the congou could be used for family life, displayed to guest in order to show hosts' politeness, exhibited before Gods as sacrifice, employed at marriages and funerals, adopted to settle distributes[sic] and disagreements, utilized to improve and strengthen friendships... Tea-drinking could satisfy all kinds of human physiological and social needs. It was no longer the patent of the noble, and quickly popularized in the whole society.[12]

[emphasis mine]Footnote 12 (at the end of this passage) refers to an article from one of the special issues on Chinese Tea Culture in the magazine "Archaeology of Agriculture"; side-note; I have some copies of their articles on gongfucha if someone who reads Chinese well wants to hazard a translation for me to post on teadrunk).

While I'm certain there were people who couldn't afford tea or teasets, the point is, I imagine that folks at different levels had tea and tea sets which were appropriate to their financial means

Judging from Weng Huidong and others, Chaozhou gongfucha was definitely practiced by a lot of people, not only those of higher classes. He specifically mentioned people who were in the fields, in factories, along the road, etc. Those are not rich folks.

MarshalN wrote:Judging from Weng Huidong and others, Chaozhou gongfucha was definitely practiced by a lot of people, not only those of higher classes.

Exactly. I believe gongfu mainly means "time". High grade tea sometimes is called "gongfu" because it requires time and efforts to make it. But brewing tea of any grade requires time and attention, so it's called "gongfu". Tea is a luxury of time, and not necessarily a luxury of money