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Here's something that few people remember about Zimmer: When he was coming up through the minors in the Dodgers' system, he was a power hitting shortstop who was being groomed as Pee Wee Reese's eventual successor. In the early 50's he was considered one of the top prospects in the Dodgers' entire farm system.

What then did Zimmer in was the beanball. He'd already been conked more than once, and in 1953 he was leading the American Association in homers and RBI on July 7th, when Jim Kirk of Columbus knocked him unconscious for two weeks and put him out of commission for the rest of the season. He was never the same player after that, though the one good thing that came out of his misfortune was that it prompted the Majors to institute a mandatory helmet rule.

The favorite ex-Dodger of many a Yankee fan. Zim pushed for the Yankees to bring Joe Girardi on in 1996, and the benefits continue today. Zim played for Casey Stengel and coached Derek Jeter - quite a span. R.I.P.

My memory of Zimmer basically starts in the late 80s when he managed the Cubs and shortly after I started following baseball.

Obviously living in NY beginning in 1998 I have a distinct impression of him as Torre's bench coach. Including when he took over for Torre while Torre was recovering from prostate cancer surgery and Zimmer mismanaged the LF situation.

I recall that Zimmer was way out of line in charging Pedro in 2003.

I know he was with the Rays in recent years.

And everyone's seen a photo of him in that Red Sox uniform with the red belt stripe in 1978, when he looked 65 but was really only in his 40s.

Scanning his b-r page:

1) I knew he played for the Brooklyn Dodgers but I confess I thought he was a pitcher. I think I got him confused with Tommy Lasorda.
2) I didn't realize his career was as long as it was.
3) He actually had some pop
4) I had no idea he managed the Padres and the Rangers.

Even the most casual baseball followers undoubtedly recall Zimmer's distasteful skirmish with Pedro Martinez during the fourth inning of Game 3 of the 2003 American League Championship Series at Fenway Park. When the dugouts emptied for a second time, Zimmer, age 72, moved from the third-base dugout toward Martinez in front of the first-base dugout. The Red Sox pitcher threw him to the ground.

Zimmer was more embarrassed than injured. He publicly apologized the following day. In one of his books, he wrote that Martinez had sent word that he wanted to apologize, as well. "What does he have to apologize for?" Zimmer wrote. "I was the guy who charged him and threw the punch. To the people who said Pedro beat up an old man I said, 'No, an old man was dumb enough to try and beat up on Pedro.'"

I remember all the Yankees fans up in arms about how Pedro treated him, but I always thought he did the best he could to not actually hurt Zimmer.

I'd say punk, more than thug (can't respect a guy with perfect control who hit that many batters)

No, he was a thug, intentionally trying to injure and intimidate others. The fact that the league condoned his Yankee-hunting as part of their overall agenda no more absolves him of thuggish behavior than the disinterest of local law enforcement absolved the Klan.

But not the smarts. That's what characterized Zimmer. He didn't understand "Discretion is the better part of valor.". If he was in the marines, he would be the first guy out of the foxhole, and the first guy to be immediately riddled with bullets.

Pedro was a thug, Zimmer was a tough old bird who wasn't afraid to do what's right.

This is a tired debate, but it deserves mentioning that Zimmer disagreed with you, and was horrified by his own actions in retrospect if/when you watch him breaking down in the press conference that followed up.

But not the smarts. That's what characterized Zimmer. He didn't understand "Discretion is the better part of valor.". If he was in the marines, he would be the first guy out of the foxhole, and the first guy to be immediately riddled with bullets.

Someone has to be the first man out of the foxhole. It's the guy with the most guts.

It's acceptable, I suppose, if there's an even playing field and the Yankees were allowed to fight back. Of course, in that same game where Zimmer was defending his players from Pedro's shameless head-hunting and actually beaning players, Manny Ramirez roid-raged his way into a bench-clearing brawl after a pitch missed his head by a couple of feet.

Pedro was a thug, Zimmer was a tough old bird who wasn't afraid to do what's right.

One of my first thoughts when I saw Zimmer's kamikaze attack on Pedro was the incident in the 1954 Cotton Bowl when an Alabama backup player named Tommy Lewis came flying off the bench to tackle a Rice running back who was headed towards the end zone. It had to be one of the more bizarre moments in sports history, but I love the way that Tommy Lewis explained it by saying "I guess I'm just too full of Bama". Similarly, I think that Zimmer was just too full of baseball, and let the moment overcome him.

I was at the Pedro/Zimmer game. I didn't see the incident (there was a lot happening) and I thought he had a heart attack. It was pretty scary.

My first recollection of sports radio was "The Sports Huddle" with Eddie Andeleman in Boston in the late-70s. I was 8 in 1978 and Eddie forbade the use of Zimmer's name. Anyone who said it would hear a buzzer then a recorded message requiring that the caller use the less offensive name "Chiang Kai-Shek." It was hysterical to an 8 year old.

The guy had a hell of a life and a hell of a career. I'm pretty sure I would give up everything I had to spend six decades in the game of baseball. I remember him getting a huge ovation when he went to coach third base with the Butch Hobson Red Sox in 1992 on Opening Day.

How many of the greatest prospects in the game (which Zimmer arguably was) have their talents sapped by injury, then come back not just to will their way to the majors, but to have such a long career as a player, manger, coach, mascot. Compare Brien Taylor or any other of the hundreds of guys who were personally destroyed when they lost their unique talent.

Pedro was a thug, Zimmer was a tough old bird who wasn't afraid to do what's right.

No bloody way that charging Pedro there was the "right" thing for Zimmer to do.

Pedro, faced with the impossible situation of an old man bearing down on him, merely sidestepped him and sort of helped him to the ground. WTF else was Pedro supposed to do? Stand there and take a hit? Was he not allowed to defend himself? A true "thug" would have taken the opportunity to flatten Zimmer. Pedro didn't do that.

I was at the Pedro/Zimmer game. I didn't see the incident (there was a lot happening) and I thought he had a heart attack. It was pretty scary.

I was watching it in a hotel room in Boston with my girlfriend at the time. One of the lasting impressions I have of it was that Pettitte didn't see what had happened, and was kneeling over Zimmer on the field trying to figure out just what in the hell had gone on.

Pedro, faced with the impossible situation of an old man bearing down on him, merely sidestepped him and sort of helped him to the ground. WTF else was Pedro supposed to do? Stand there and take a hit? Was he not allowed to defend himself? A true "thug" would have taken the opportunity to flatten Zimmer. Pedro didn't do that.

I don't think Pedro did anything wrong in that instance. He's a punk for other reasons.

My first recollection of sports radio was "The Sports Huddle" with Eddie Andeleman in Boston in the late-70s. I was 8 in 1978 and Eddie forbade the use of Zimmer's name. Anyone who said it would hear a buzzer then a recorded message requiring that the caller use the less offensive name "Chiang Kai-Shek."

Doesn't the punchline need to be "Mao Tse-Tung" there?

For me, Zim brings back memories of Ray Gandolf, the great sportscaster of the CBS Morning News, who served as my narrator of the Yankee bludgeoning of the Red Sox in Fenway that turned the 1978 pennant race, as well as uber-douche Rafael Palmeiro's "I'VE BEEN FREYED AND ZIMMERED" t-shirt, which he sported proudly in the summer Zim led the Palmeiro-less 1989 Cubs to their last true pennant.

Clemens was a thug or a bully. Pedro was a punk. I go by size on that one. Pedro had a dangerous fastball, but he wouldn't last very long in a fight with most people in baseball under the age of 70. Clemens was huge and intimidating.

Yes, that 1989 team had to wade through almost six other foes to claim the division crown, unlike the 07-08 Cubs who only had to better just slightly more than four other teams to claim that pathetic prize.

Of course he blew it. He buried Lee when the team could have used him because he didn't like him. He ran off a useful player in Carbo because he didn't like him. He never gave Evans time off after he got beaned in August despite Evans being dizzy in the outfield. He continued to play Hobson at 3rd with bone chips in his elbow, making 30 errors because he couldn't throw, until Hobson had to take himself out of the lineup. He pitched Bill Campbell's arm off.

He was a horseshit manager. I mean, manager wins are silly to point to. Grady Little won 93 and 95 games as Red Sox manager. Didn't make him any good. Same with Zimmer.

I was watching it in a hotel room in Boston with my girlfriend at the time. One of the lasting impressions I have of it was that Pettitte didn't see what had happened, and was kneeling over Zimmer on the field trying to figure out just what in the hell had gone on.

I watched it at a little restuarant on Regent Street called Josie's, a shitty little Italian place that served stiff drinks. It burned a couple of years later. My parents and sister were in town for a big Ohio State/Wisconsin football game at Camp Randall and that's where my parents liked to tailgate. They had the Sox game on the television in the parking lot and I joined mom and dad for a couple of pre-game beers. I ended up scalping my ticket so that I could go back up to the square to watch the Cubs play Atlanta that night back up on the Cap Square. It was fortuitous because the OSU/Badger game wound up in a thunderstorm. I stayed high and dry and the Cubs won.

No bloody way that charging Pedro there was the "right" thing for Zimmer to do.

Pedro, faced with the impossible situation of an old man bearing down on him, merely sidestepped him and sort of helped him to the ground. WTF else was Pedro supposed to do? Stand there and take a hit? Was he not allowed to defend himself? A true "thug" would have taken the opportunity to flatten Zimmer. Pedro didn't do that.

And of course Zimmer tearfully apologized, took all the blame, said he was wrong. No one listened, because of all the faux outrage about Pedro "attacking an old man." Which was and is total bullshit.

Zimmer was 10000000% wrong to charge Pedro. It was an unfathomably stupid thing to have done and he's lucky he didn't get badly injured from his fall and roll.

Add the pine tar game to Zelig Zimmer's list. He was the Yankees' third base coach.

Carlton Fisk game

I'm sure it's known by most here but he was involved in one of the big moments in that game in the 9th (?) inning. The Sox had Doyle at third with less than two outs and the hitter lofted a fly ball down the left field line. Foster caught it and Zimmer yelled "no no no" but Doyle heard it as "go go go" and was thrown out at the plate.

not saying your facts are not also true. but the team regularly met or exceeded their expected win totals.

look, i get it. the division was right THERE. but what red sox fans are suggesting is that a team that won a lot of games should have won a LOT of games if not for zimmer. you really think the 77-80 red sox should have been winning 100 plus games a season?

and he was competing in a division wiht earl weaver, sparky trammell and sometimes billy martin. that's some serious managerial heft

Anytime an old, or small, or girl, attacks a young, athletic man, the gut reaction will be that the man shouldn't have roughed him/her up. But if you're the attacker, you take what's coming to you and all people - even big, strong people - are allowed to defend themselves.

So, yes, Zimmer was in the wrong. But it was a melee and you have to (well, not really, but I do) love that a 70 something year old guy would run out there and mix it up. To feel the competitive fire enough to go after the main villain (from his team's point of view) is a characteristic I hope to have at his age, even if I may hope to not display it all that often.

memories of Ray Gandolf, the great sportscaster of the CBS Morning News,

I've never been a TV news guy, but my god did I love the years that show had Gandolf & Hughes Rudd. Up until my senior year in high school, when a new building opened across town, I lived about 4 minutes from campus & always watched until Rudd's sign-off before scurrying to my first class.

1) continued to play Butch Hobson at thirdbase, even though Hobson had floating bone chips in his elbow, leading to an astounding 43 errors and an .899 fielding percentage.
2) started catcher Carleton Fisk in 151 games. Backup catcher Bob Montgomery had a total of 32 plate appearances, and started 9 games.
3) buried starting lefthander Bill Lee down the stretch, mostly becasue he just didn't like Lee (and the feeling was mutual). His last start was Sept 10. He was traded to the Montreal Expos the following offseason for utility infielder Stan Papi, who put up a 32 OPS+ for them in 1979 while Lee pitched pitched 22 innings and went 16-10.
4) engineered the sale of outfielder Bernie Carbo in midseason to the Indians, receiving nothing in return becsue he didn't like Carbo either). At the time, Carbo had an OPS+ of 105 and was the only hitter off the bench (if you don't count Yastrzemski, who was usually either the starting DH or LF) who had an OPS+ of over 100.
5) played outfielder Dwight Evans in RF even though Evans had sustained a beaning, was concussed, was suffering from dizzy spells and made several very noticable erros in Sept. the beaning might not have been so bad except had the next reasonable option not been sold for no good reason to the Indians (see #4).
6)in the most crucial game of the year, brings in righthanded relief pitcher Bob Stanley to face Reggie Jackson to lead off the 7th inning. jackson immediatley hits a homerun to make the score 5-2. After the Jackson homer, Zimmer then replaces Stanley with lefthander Andy Hassler, who retires lefthanded batters Nettles and Chambliss, and switchhitting Roy White in order. The Red Sox score 2 runs in the eight but end up losing 5-4.
7) under Zimmer the prior season, ace reliever Bill Campbell piches 140 innings, finishing 10 in the MVP award. In 1978, arm fatigue plagues Campbell all season, and he only pitches 50 innings. Becasue Campbell was a screwballer, he was particularly effective against lefthanders (see #6)
8) also had personal issues with righthanded Ferguson Jenkins in 1977, who despite pitching 193 innings with a 123 ERA+, was traded in the off-season for pitcher John Poloni to the Texas Rangers. Poloni never played another game in the majors.
9) Promising 22-year old lefthander Bobby Sprowl is brought up in September. Despite having other starting pitching options, Zimmer starts Sprowl in a crucial game against the Yankees on Sept. 10. Sprowl pitches 2/3 of an inning, giving up one hit and 4 walks to the 5 batters he faced. Sprowl finishes the year having pitched 12.7 innings with a 6.45 ERA.

Certain threads seem to be repeated here:

-lack of attention to splits and other game situation details
-seeming nihilistic disinterest in his players physical well-being, either shortterm or longterm
-lack of understanding of the concept of fatigue, and how that might negatively impact quality of play
-failure to develop a bench as the season progresses and the inevitable injuries take their toll
-allowing personal grudges to dictate strategic and tactical roster decisions
-failure to develop and protect young players properly (Hobson, Sprowl, Evans)

I used to sell posters of the 1978 Yanks-Red Sox playoff program cover, featuring a big mug shot of Zimmer but no mention of the fact that it was the 163rd game and not just a midseason game.

The fact that it's listed as "Third Edition" makes me think that it was just the usual program. Typically the Sox would update their programs a couple of times a year. Zimmer was probably made the cover boy when the lead was huge.

I think Pedro regrets the 2003 ALCS incident. Not saying he didn't have the right to defend himself. Just saying I bet he wishes he didn't do what he did. Zimmer couldn't have hurt him. All Pedro had to do was hold on to him.

Jesus, you Red Sox fans. The body's not even cold yet. The man spent 60+ years in baseball and was from all accounts a great guy. You've won 3 titles in the last 10 years. Save the vitriol for another day, hey?

I used to sell posters of the 1978 Yanks-Red Sox playoff program cover, featuring a big mug shot of Zimmer but no mention of the fact that it was the 163rd game and not just a midseason game.

The fact that it's listed as "Third Edition" makes me think that it was just the usual program. Typically the Sox would update their programs a couple of times a year. Zimmer was probably made the cover boy when the lead was huge.

The only difference between the playoff program and the ones from the final third of the season was that the "Upcoming Games" part inside was omitted other than having a reference to the ALCS followed by "?????" That's why anyone trying to sell the playoff program for a premium price always makes note of the inside changes, since the cover is the same one as August's and September's.

I wish I still had the programs I bought back then.

Don't feel bad. I once sold a complete set of 1953 football cards for five bucks, and though I still have my 1953 Topps baseball set, I stupidly put them into five photo albums that I didn't realize had permanent adhesion after the first few minutes. I can still admire the artwork but the backs of the cards are forever unviewable.

I'm not so sure about that. For instance, what if Pedro had been distracted and didn't see Zimmer coming? What if Zimmer had been able to get his hands on Pedro? What if Pedro had his pitching arm injured somehow?

Don't feel bad. I once sold a complete set of 1953 football cards for five bucks, and though I still have my 1953 Topps baseball set, I stupidly put them into five photo albums that I didn't realize had permanent adhesion after the first few minutes. I can still admire the artwork but the backs of the cards are forever unviewable.

It's not the sale value as much as the sentimental value. I was rummaging around my basement the other day and wound up killing about 45 minutes reading through a special Boston Globe section on the 1984 Celtics' title. That stuff is fun for me to look at.

A lot of times the ads are more interesting than the actual stories. I was talking with some friends recently and one of them mentioned the old Bartles and Jaymes TV commercials. We dug one out on YouTube for his 16 year old son and he couldn't understand why we loved it so much.

A lot of times the ads are more interesting than the actual stories. I was talking with some friends recently and one of them mentioned the old Bartles and Jaymes TV commercials. We dug one out on YouTube for his 16 year old son and he couldn't understand why we loved it so much.

I've sometimes wondered what distinctive artifact or person from the 50's or 60's would seem the most ridiculous to someone in their teens or 20's today. The problem is that there are so many candidates for that distinction it'd be hard to know where to begin, but it'd have to be something or someone with no counterpart from earlier or later decades.

I'm not so sure about that. For instance, what if Pedro had been distracted and didn't see Zimmer coming? What if Zimmer had been able to get his hands on Pedro? What if Pedro had his pitching arm injured somehow?

It was fortuitous because the OSU/Badger game wound up in a thunderstorm. I stayed high and dry and the Cubs won.

Form a UW perspective, you missed a helluva football game. Schabert's bomb to Lee Evans late in the 4th. Schabert came in to relieve Jim Sorgi after that dirty bastard Robert Reynolds choked Sorgi after a whistle.

I've sometimes wondered what distinctive artifact or person from the 50's or 60's would seem the most ridiculous to someone in their teens or 20's today. The problem is that there are so many candidates for that distinction it'd be hard to know where to begin, but it'd have to be something or someone with no counterpart from earlier or later decades.

I would vote for the cigarette commercials that used to be ubiquitous on TV in the fifties and sixties. Anyone younger than 40-45 years old has likely never seen one. Either that or Ed Sullivan, whose show was wildly popular for years while all he did was introduce the acts.

1978 Red Sox had a weak bench, and you never want to lose because of a weak bench. Playing Fred Kendall at 1B, Frank Duffy at 3B, and Jack Brohamer at DH was bad. OF reserve Gary Hancock could not play.

Carbo was traded away, but also Rick Miller left and was not replaced, and Jenkins and Reggie Cleveland were dealt away for nothing. Meanwhile, the 1975 Red Sox had a strong bench, with Carbo, Miller, and Juan Beniquez.

Also, in 1978 the Yankees picked up Jim Spencer, Gary Thomasson, and Jay Johnstone all during the season, and all of those guys would have been useful to the Red Sox and had more left in the tank than the guys they did pick up. When you add the fact that the Red Sox minor league system was barren at the moment, the bench mismanagement was a key factor in the pennant race. Zimmer deserves blame for part of that at least.

I've sometimes wondered what distinctive artifact or person from the 50's or 60's would seem the most ridiculous to someone in their teens or 20's today. The problem is that there are so many candidates for that distinction it'd be hard to know where to begin, but it'd have to be something or someone with no counterpart from earlier or later decades.

victor borge? maybe liberace? they were not master musicians. they put on a show. i don't think anyone born after 1970 would think much of the entertainment presented

As someone who is 40 it's hard to watch movies from pre-1970 or at least pre-1965. And I've tried. They generally seem boring and slow to me. Nothing happens for 45 minutes or an hour, if at all. And then if/when it does happen you're sorry that it did.

These aren't movies but the Alfred Hitchcock Presents episodes from the early 60s are like this. Things proceed on a parallel plane. There are different scenes but the different scenes are simply a different version of the previous scenes. For example I saw one last week where Bruce Dern creeped some guy's wife out, then when questioned by her husband acted innocent, then creeped her out again, then when questioned acted innocent.... This went on for 45 minutes. The episode never took off, and then FINALLY they had the obligatory twist ending where something did happen. But this entire thing could have been run in 10 minutes as a short story. No need for an hour. And it seems like most pre-1965 movies are like this. They operate on the same plane and never take off until the very end, if at all.

As someone who is 40 it's hard to watch movies from pre-1970 or at least pre-1965. And I've tried. They generally seem boring and slow to me. Nothing happens for 45 minutes or an hour, if at all. And then if/when it does happen you're sorry that it did.

These aren't movies but the Alfred Hitchcock Presents episodes from the early 60s are like this. Things proceed on a parallel plane. There are different scenes but the different scenes are simply a different version of the previous scenes. For example I saw one last week where Bruce Dern creeped some guy's wife out, then when questioned by her husband acted innocent, then creeped her out again, then when questioned acted innocent.... This went on for 45 minutes. The episode never took off, and then FINALLY they had the obligatory twist ending where something did happen. But this entire thing could have been run in 10 minutes as a short story. No need for an hour. And it seems like most pre-1965 movies are like this. They operate on the same plane and never take off until the very end, if at all.

Are you serious, Ray? Please tell me you're not serious?

Just speaking of Hitchcock, Rebecca, Notorious, Dial M for Murder, Rear Window, The Man Who Knew too Much, Vertigo, North by Northwest are all fantastic movies made before 1960.

Dial M is a perfect example, in reverse. The attempted murder of his wife at the beginning was exciting, as was the twist that she survived (I'm not doing spoiler alerts for movies half a century old), but then the story sort of flatlined.