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http://forward.com/news/345095/brooklyn-man-hangs-self-26th-new-york-orthodox-suicide-in-year/ (http://forward.com/news/345095/brooklyn-man-hangs-self-26th-new-york-orthodox-suicide-in-year/) We have to start this serious discussion in our community. #BDE

These insane people will take every tragedy and turn it into hate on our community.

You disagree that (depression and) suicide in the Orthodox community exists?!?!? There currently is no comfortable way for someone in our community to seek help for depression, there's the constant fear of friends, family, Shidduchim, schools etc. finding out. Not dealing with depression leads to grave consequences (no pun intended). I have no idea what happened in this specific case, but calling anybody trying to help "insane" and that they're "turning it into hate on our community" is either idiotic or ignorant!!!

These insane people will take every tragedy and turn it into hate on our community.

Who cares about the source of this article or the "activists" quoted? When it comes to reporting on the Chassidic or "Ultra Orthodox" community, the Forward is as anti-Semitic as it gets.

Not recognizing that the scourge of mental health issues going untreated as an epidemic in the broader orthodox community is dangerous. And it is killing people. Therapy has to stop being stigmatized. Your cardiologist doesn't need to be frum, and your ENT doesn't need to be male. Your therapist doesn't need to be frum or the same gender. People need to realize that depression and other mental health issues are sicknesses.

I don't know whether there are legit studies comparing suicide rates in our community vs the general population. Frankly, I don't care to know if it the same, more or less. The willful stigmatization of getting treated by licensed and trained mental health professionals in the orthodox community is real. It has to end.

I can't speak of Orthodox Jews in particular, but I have come across peer-reviewed research which found that religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior. The subjects in the study were those with clinical levels of depression IIRC.

Who cares about the source of this article or the "activists" quoted? When it comes to reporting on the Chassidic or "Ultra Orthodox" community, the Forward is as anti-Semitic as it gets.

Not recognizing that the scourge of mental health issues going untreated as an epidemic in the broader orthodox community is dangerous. And it is killing people. Therapy has to stop being stigmatized. Your cardiologist doesn't need to be frum, and your ENT doesn't need to be male. Your therapist doesn't need to be frum or the same gender. People need to realize that depression and other mental health issues are sicknesses.

I don't know whether there are legit studies comparing suicide rates in our community vs the general population. Frankly, I don't care to know if it the same, more or less. The willful stigmatization of getting treated by licensed and trained mental health professionals in the orthodox community is real. It has to end.

Before I disagree about this line. I am not sure what this line has to do with being stigmatized. It would still be a stigma if you went to a non frum therapist.

The concern with a non frum therapist is that they convince the person to forget about g-d to deal with their issues as opposed to working within the framework of religion.

Who cares about the source of this article or the "activists" quoted? When it comes to reporting on the Chassidic or "Ultra Orthodox" community, the Forward is as anti-Semitic as it gets.

Not recognizing that the scourge of mental health issues going untreated as an epidemic in the broader orthodox community is dangerous. And it is killing people. Therapy has to stop being stigmatized. Your cardiologist doesn't need to be frum, and your ENT doesn't need to be male. Your therapist doesn't need to be frum or the same gender. People need to realize that depression and other mental health issues are sicknesses.

I don't know whether there are legit studies comparing suicide rates in our community vs the general population. Frankly, I don't care to know if it the same, more or less. The willful stigmatization of getting treated by licensed and trained mental health professionals in the orthodox community is real. It has to end.

Many Rabbonim will disagree with this statement, unless it is a particular situation that cannot be dealt with by any religious therapists and the best available option is a non-religious therapist.

That is fair. My point is many religions recommend therapist and they work within the framework of G-d.

Sure. Also, it is one of the jobs of a therapist to work within the framework of the client, whatever it may be. That said, you'll probably do a much better job as a therapist if you share that same framework and know exactly where the client is coming from.

There's something like 600K Orthodox Jews in the US, so statistically that would be about 78/year if the rates were the same as the general population.However Orthodox Jews are typically younger than the general population and suicide affects young people disproportionately, so statistically you would expect it to be higher than that...

How many you think in the New York area orthodox community the article is talking about?

“The finger pointing is so sad,” Avi Shafran, director of public affairs for Agudath Israel of America, said in an email to The Forward. “I don’t claim to know what demons plagued Faigy, but those who do, from places outside Orthodoxy, are making very subjective, biased accusations.”

He suggested that leaving the Hasidic community may have contributed to the depression and other problems that Mayer suffered from.

“Could it, though, have been a feeling of emptiness in her secular ‘new life,’ as successful as it seemed to be?” Shafran wrote. “The finger pointers don’t want to even consider that one.”

Every death is tragic, but I would argue that we have two main connections, family and community. Orthodox Judaism is a religious community and someone who is brought up with that sense of community and then leaves it may struggle with that loss of belonging. That's not a fault of the community.

As for family there is no excuse IMO for the family to sever that connection although some of those who leave will sever it themselves out of anger.

Hate?If just one person decides to keep their life due to their activism then they're doing a good job.

There needs to be more awareness to deal with people having issues.

Yes. Hate. Even according to their statistics of how many suicides we had in our in the past year (which I'm not convinced is true) we still have lower suicide rates than the public. Unfortunately suicide is something that always existed in all communities. Why start talking about rape and bash our community. We are no different than other communities. We have over enough therapist and we have people going to them. Simply hating. And it's sad that they are using a tragedy for their hate purposes.

Huh? Can you email to me what the necessary discussion besides bashing rabbanim here is? Can you explain to me where rape and sex come into the picture. As I said suicide is nothing higher in our community. If something it's probably way lower.

Huh? Can you email to me what the necessary discussion besides bashing rabbanim here is? Can you explain to me where rape and sex come into the picture. As I said suicide is nothing higher in our community. If something it's probably way lower.

No, I will not email you. This needs to be a public discussion. And where did rape or Rabbonim bashing even come into play? You're the only one that's mentioning it.

Awareness of mental illness and drug use is important in our communities, I'm not sure why you're pretending otherwise. There is certainly a stigma around both of them, and that very likely can lead to suicide.

No, I will not email you. This needs to be a public discussion. And where did rape or Rabbonim bashing even come into play? You're the only one that's mentioning it.

Awareness of mental illness and drug use is important in our communities, I'm not sure why you're pretending otherwise. There is certainly a stigma around both of them, and that very likely can lead to suicide.

There are two separate issues. One it's mental health in our community and the other is suicide and overdose by those who left the community. Both are very important.

No, I will not email you. This needs to be a public discussion. And where did rape or Rabbonim bashing even come into play? You're the only one that's mentioning it.

Awareness of mental illness and drug use is important in our communities, I'm not sure why you're pretending otherwise. There is certainly a stigma around both of them, and that very likely can lead to suicide.

The link that the OP posted.

My gosh. What exactly has to be addressed? Whoever is sick goes to therapy. Why is earth does it have to do with our community?????????????

My gosh. What exactly has to be addressed? Whoever is sick goes to therapy. Why is earth does it have to do with our community?????????????

I don't see the word rape anywhere in the link the OP posted, so I would suggest not using hyperbolic buzzwords to try to minimize the issue.

And what I highlighted is exactly the issue; they DON'T go to therapy because they feel they're the only ones that have whatever issue, and it will hurt their reputation, they'll have no shidduch prospects, etc. It needs to be talked about so people who are suffering realize they're not alone, and they can/should seek help.

And what I highlighted is exactly the issue; they DON'T go to therapy because they feel they're the only ones that have whatever issue, and it will hurt their reputation, they'll have no shidduch prospects, etc. It needs to be talked about so people who are suffering realize they're not alone, and they can/should seek help.

FWIW, one news report quotes a distant family member saying that the subject of the Forward article was on his way to the doctor for anti-depressants.

Depression is something only experienced by people born with chemical imbalances. Everybody obviously has amazing parents and supportive relatives. No such thing as someone who has no social life. No such thing as a regular normal kid falling into difficult times deciding they have nothing to live for.

Depression is something only experienced by people born with chemical imbalances. Everybody obviously has amazing parents and supportive relatives. No such thing as someone who has no social life. No such thing as a regular normal kid falling into difficult times deciding they have nothing to live for.

Some people here are off their minds. Tip to Aaron, don't be shy to get your issues taken care of.

I unfortunately know more than enough people who use therapy. Why do people love love when they can say "we have problems in our community"

I think your assumption that everyone is trying to be critical of our community is where you're wrong. Perhaps some of us truly care about the individual. It's irrelevant how we compare statistically to other communities if there's even one suicide that could've and should've been prevented than that's one too many. Unfortunately, it's a lot more than one therefore we are discussing what the issues are that could be fixed to prevent it. That doesn't need to be taken as a wholesale indictment on orthodox judaism and it doesn't require a need to attack and decry those who are trying to discuss the problem and or solutions (though I doubt much can really come from a forum such as this)

I think your assumption that everyone is trying to be critical of our community is where your wrong. Perhaps some of us truly care about the individual. It's irrelevant how we compare statistically to other communities if there's even one suicide that could've and should've been prevented than that's one too many. Unfortunately, it's a lot more than one therefore we are discussing what the issues are that could be fixed to prevent it. That doesn't need to be taken as a wholesale indictment on orthodox judaism and it doesn't require a need to attack and decry those who are trying to discuss the problem and or solutions (though I doubt much can really come from a forum such as this)

+1 though I partially disagree with your last statement. If the discussion was limited to just this forum you'd be correct but if its openly discussed here and on numerous other forums that would help drive awareness.

+1 though I partially disagree with your last statement. If the discussion was limited to just this forum you'd be correct but if its openly discussed here and on numerous other forums that would help drive awareness.

It is very relevant. If we have more, than the problem is likely something unique to our community.

If we have less, than in whatever it is that we do that makes the problem less than in other communities, perhaps we should be strengthening ourselves.

I did not mean that we shouldn't look at other communities to help us understand what the issue. All I meant was that as long as there is what we can do to prevent it from happening then we should work on it regardless of the prevelancy verse others.

Gee, that this thread should be deleted because anyone that needs help is already getting it. Awareness is not necessary and we should condemn anyone who is pretending to help.

Just to clarify, there are many many issues that need addressing. Addiction is a prime example. There is nowhere near enough awareness.Il give you an example that I know of. - a recovering alcoholic is struggling to stay dry. At a kiddush, his friends actively encourage him to have a drink etc.. they are not aware of the struggles of an alcoholic and have no idea what this even means.Drug abuse - most frum parents/spouses are not aware of the symptoms until it's way to late....

Both of these examples would never happen in general society where everyone is aware of alcoholism, recovery, addiction and drugs.

On the other hand, physiological therapy is no longer stigmatized in the frum community. In Lakewood there are hundreds of therapists. In the average Lakewood class room at least 3 kids are seeing a therapist. There is plenty of awareness of both mental illness and family/social situations that require attention.

So making the argument about mental health stigmatization, which was valid 20 years ago, detracts from the real issues.

I did not mean that we shouldn't look at other communities to help us understand what the issue. All I meant was that as long as there is what we can do to prevent it from happening then we should work on it regardless of the prevelancy verse others.

Of course that is true, but if we want real solutions, we need real data, not whatever attracts the most attention, even if it's misleading.

Just to clarify, there are many many issues that need addressing. Addiction is a prime example. There is nowhere near enough awareness.Il give you an example that I know of. - a recovering alcoholic is struggling to stay dry. At a kiddush, his friends actively encourage him to have a drink etc.. they are not aware of the struggles of an alcoholic and have no idea what this even means.Drug abuse - most frum parents/spouses are not aware of the symptoms until it's way to late....

Both of these examples would never happen in general society where everyone is aware of alcoholism, recovery, addiction and drugs.

On the other hand, physiological therapy is no longer stigmatized in the frum community. In Lakewood there are hundreds of therapists. In the average Lakewood class room at least 3 kids are seeing a therapist. There is plenty of awareness of both mental illness and family/social situations that require attention.

So making the argument about mental health stigmatization, which was valid 20 years ago, detracts from the real issues.

I assume you mean psychotherapy?

Good point, though. I think what bothers me is not bringing attention to it, but not focusing on helpful information, just shock material.

Just to clarify, there are many many issues that need addressing. Addiction is a prime example. There is nowhere near enough awareness.Il give you an example that I know of. - a recovering alcoholic is struggling to stay dry. At a kiddush, his friends actively encourage him to have a drink etc.. they are not aware of the struggles of an alcoholic and have no idea what this even means.Drug abuse - most frum parents/spouses are not aware of the symptoms until it's way to late....

Both of these examples would never happen in general society where everyone is aware of alcoholism, recovery, addiction and drugs.

On the other hand, physiological therapy is no longer stigmatized in the frum community. In Lakewood there are hundreds of therapists. In the average Lakewood class room at least 3 kids are seeing a therapist. There is plenty of awareness of both mental illness and family/social situations that require attention.

So making the argument about mental health stigmatization, which was valid 20 years ago, detracts from the real issues.

+1 to all this, but mental health issues may be much more stigmatized in other communities. Your exposure is to Lakewood.

You could ask that question to the activists trumpeting numbers as well.

They obviously have an organization who offer assistance. I don't know much about them, but this is a way of raising funds.No different than RCCS counting cancer patients in Lakewood for fundraising... It's distasteful, but necessary to get people to wake up and act ($)

They obviously have an organization who offer assistance. I don't know much about them, but this is a way of raising funds.No different than RCCS counting cancer patients in Lakewood for fundraising... It's distasteful, but necessary to get people to wake up and act ($)

Someone donating would want to know how big of a need there is. Most people don't have unlimited resources and will allocate according to how big the issue is.

BH you are clearly clueless about what is going on on the streets of the frum communities. Its all very nice, but you should definitely continue to research this. - Ignorance in these matters can be deadly if it ever C"V affects someone close to you.

There are many, many young men and women from frum homes who have serious addiction issues. It is often a package deal with emotional and mental health issues. I am not someone involved in this at all, and know more than one person who died of a drug overdose, and several more that are in and out of rehab. Once an addict it's always there lurking. When they are niftar there is a clear effort to keep it quiet, out of consideration for the families. (most of these are not reported on anywhere at all, very few are 'high profile'). I understand that fully, but the side effect is that people simply don't believe it's there.

There are many, many young men and women from frum homes who have serious addiction issues. It is often a package deal with emotional and mental health issues. I am not someone involved in this at all, and know more than one person who died of a drug overdose, and several more that are in and out of rehab. Once an addict it's always there lurking. When they are niftar there is a clear effort to keep it quiet, out of consideration for the families. (most of these are not reported on anywhere at all, very few are 'high profile'). I understand that fully, but the side effect is that people simply don't believe it's there.

So true.

So many... The numbers of addicts who are knocking on deaths door are mind boggling. RC"l

I'm just trying to figure out if this is a bash Amudim thread or a handwringing what shall we do thread. Suicide, along with its causes, mental illness and addiction, have always been swept under the rug like molestation.

Amudim is actively trying to prevent suicides. Whether the number of deaths from suicide or unintentional overdose is overstated (and i believe it is understated) is immaterial. This is not a fund-raising gimmick. Its to raise awareness.

I have firsthand knowledge of some of their activities. They help people find therapists and subsidize therapy. Direct struggling addicts to people with experience in recovery.

So, yes there is a need for yet another organization. At least one that takes addiction and mental illness seriously.

Disclaimer: I am not in any way shape or form involved in running this organization.

It helps me express and share my deep sorrow. Sorry for being selfish. Now stop trolling.

Thats fine, but what are you going to do about it. I'm not trolling. I'm just sick of people saying its so sad and moving on as if it wont happen again and again. Saying its sad is nice and sentimental.

Yes.If you go to the post office in BP there are mostly yidden. I shall deduce from there that Jews across the states get more mail than non-jews.

Wha?!?!!? If the meetings have majority jews then proportionally i would say that in areas that there are less jews there will be fewer at the meetings. How is your deduction logical???? I'm just saying we have lots of addicts and very few who seek help. We are more or less on par with our non-jewish counterparts percentage-wise.

How is this incorrect? If a rebbe knew that if he got caught they would go to the cops, everyone would find out/ruin his name and family name and may end up in jail he wouldn't do it. Now what does he loose? If he is caught its swept under the rug.

How is this incorrect? If a rebbe knew that if he got caught they would go to the cops, everyone would find out/ruin his name and family name and may end up in jail he wouldn't do it. Now what does he loose? If he is caught its swept under the rug.

It's wrong bec there are predators everywhere, going to the police might prevent some of them but the most important thing is that it stops them quicker.

How is this incorrect? If a rebbe knew that if he got caught they would go to the cops, everyone would find out/ruin his name and family name and may end up in jail he wouldn't do it. Now what does he loose? If he is caught its swept under the rug.

I see you do no research before debating. I'll start you off, its a mental illness and look into past groups and sects that had the same issue.

Wha?!?!!? If the meetings have majority jews then proportionally i would say that in areas that there are less jews there will be fewer at the meetings. How is your deduction logical???? I'm just saying we have lots of addicts and very few who seek help. We are more or less on par with our non-jewish counterparts percentage-wise.

Your using your own deductions to guide your reasoning. Look at the actual stats.

Most addicts I know or have met will never ask for help until its very late in the game and there is no choice, as they are facing life altering events (i.e. a spouse threatening to leave, loss of a job or home, etc.) Those that dont ask for help usually end up as death notices here, in prison, or insane asylums. Help is sought more now than in the past but there is a stigma associated with asking for help in the frum community. If i had a dollar for every frum person who has told me that 12 step meetings are not for them, or are held in a church and they wont go into a church, or "I cant go to a social worker because...".

Yet another stereotype. We have no issue asking for help if we feel we need it.

There is a tremendous stigma involved with drug abuse in our communities. The fact is that it goes on everywhere and it is not talked about. For example I know that in one particular shul there are at least 9 different people (that I know of) that have siblings who have seeked out help for addiction. All these 9 are friends and not one of them knows about the other. I guarantee you there are more. None of these people are showing up on "stats".

Just because you dont know about it doesnt mean its not going on. If people began the conversation, we would realize that no family hasnt been affected by this in one way or the other.

Thats fine, but what are you going to do about it. I'm not trolling. I'm just sick of people saying its so sad and moving on as if it wont happen again and again. Saying its sad is nice and sentimental.

I agree its not enough to just say its sad and move on. Lets hear what you've done to help the cause.

Most addicts I know or have met will never ask for help until its very late in the game and there is no choice, as they are facing life altering events (i.e. a spouse threatening to leave, loss of a job or home, etc.) Those that dont ask for help usually end up as death notices here, in prison, or insane asylums. Help is sought more now than in the past but there is a stigma associated with asking for help in the frum community. If i had a dollar for every frum person who has told me that 12 step meetings are not for them, or are held in a church and they wont go into a church, or "I cant go to a social worker because...".

I am not arguing on your personal experience. I am simply saying that it is no worse than than the national average. To the contrary it's significantly better. It is still horrible nonetheless.

I see you do no research before debating. I'll start you off, its a mental illness and look into past groups and sects that had the same issue.

OK ill take your word at it. So you are saying regardless of the consequences he will do it anyway? What if the consequence was to be killed. Do you think that he still would because of mental illness?

OK ill take your word at it. So you are saying regardless of the consequences he will do it anyway? What if the consequence was to be killed. Do you think that he still would because of mental illness?

There is a tremendous stigma involved with drug abuse in our communities. The fact is that it goes on everywhere and it is not talked about. For example I know that in one particular shul there are at least 9 different people (that I know of) that have siblings who have seeked out help for addiction. All these 9 are friends and not one of them knows about the other. I guarantee you there are more. None of these people are showing up on "stats".

Just because you dont know about it doesnt mean its not going on. If people began the conversation, we would realize that no family hasnt been affected by this in one way or the other.

The latter. Im quite sure the former is also though I haven't actually researched that.

How many yungerliet in Lakewood are addicted to internet gambling since they legalized it in NJ?How many young frum people are smoking Marijuana and cant stop?How many closet sex addicts are abusing their wives who are too ashamed to ask for help because we dont talk about sex in public.

Come on. Its people that are willfuly blind, that suppress the real numbers and prolong the stigma of those seeking help.

How many yungerliet in Lakewood are addicted to internet gambling since they legalized it in NJ?How many young frum people are smoking Marijuana and cant stop?How many closet sex addicts are abusing their wives who are too ashamed to ask for help because we dont talk about sex in public.

Come on. Its people that are willfuly blind, that suppress the real numbers and prolong the stigma of those seeking help.

ah who cares. we have similar to the national average so it makes no difference. we should be proud that we are like the goyim.

Your emotions are getting the better of you. Keep it mature. I have no proof. Noone has proof. All I can show you is a basic layout of numbers. Though if you weren't too busy throwing elementary grade insults at other anonymous people online who dare to argue with you then you would have seen the same yourself on Mr Google.

Your emotions are getting the better of you. Keep it mature. I have no proof. Noone has proof. All I can show you is a basic layout of numbers. Though if you weren't too busy throwing elementary grade insults at other anonymous people online who dare to argue with you then you would have seen the same yourself on Mr Google.

I invite you to provide something to back up your numbers. I gladly can later when I'm in from of a computer

I only have so much time and energy to expend on arguing with uneducated debaters online. So it will need to wait until tonight when I'm in front of a computer with some spare time to put something together

Your emotions are getting the better of you. Keep it mature. I have no proof. Noone has proof. All I can show you is a basic layout of numbers. Though if you weren't too busy throwing elementary grade insults at other anonymous people online who dare to argue with you then you would have seen the same yourself on Mr Google.

Here is a recent study that shows that you cannot have numbers to back you up because they dont exist. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4487707/

Every argument I made is included in this study. We're pretty damn close to the average, and what difference does it make. Its bad and people are dying all too often as a result of willful blindness and inaction. Whatever your sources are its unimportnat as long as we recognize that there is trojan horse in our midst which, if left unabated, will ruin us and rot us from the inside out.

If you know someone who has a problem please refer them to an organization that can help. If you have any questions feel free to PM.

As I said earlierI only have so much time and energy to expend on arguing with uneducated debaters online. So it will need to wait until tonight when I'm in front of a computer with some spare time to put something together

Please list your qualifications (other than internet researcher) in regards to this topic as well, especially when calling others uneducated. Have you dealt with addicts?

Please list your qualifications (other than internet researcher) in regards to this topic as well, especially when calling others uneducated. Have you dealt with addicts?

I don't have many qualifications. Yes I have worked with addicts in the past but that makes no difference in this case. It's common decency to at least have basic concrete knowledge of a subject before vehemently opposing someones opinions/facts.Even a 5 min internet search will yield a small amount of knowledge and it's brutally obvious that it hasn't been done.

I don't have many qualifications. Yes I have worked with addicts in the past but that makes no difference in this case. It's common decency to at least have basic concrete knowledge of a subject before vehemently opposing someones opinions/facts.Even a 5 min internet search will yield a small amount of knowledge and it's brutally obvious that it hasn't been done.

You know what, you're right. We are less worse off than our non-jewish counterparts. Now what? Does thag make you feel better?

You think this is some smear campaign of frum jews? Do we have a problem? A serious problem? A deadly serious un/under-addressed problem?

You want to be right on the numbers and wrong on the issues? Is that what this is about? Ego?

You know what, you're right. We are less worse off than our non-jewish counterparts. Now what? Does thag make you feel better?

You think this is some smear campaign of frum jews? Do we have a problem? A serious problem? A deadly serious un/under-addressed problem?

You want to be right on the numbers and wrong on the issues? Is that what this is about? Ego?

No. Read the convo back and I never said that it's not an issue. It's a large and horrific problem and even 1 is 1 to many.I was merely mentioning it in regard to those that are making it seem like a predominantly Jewish issue, and that the insular Jewish community has a significantly and relatively high rate of drug overdoses that its being brushed under every rug and into every closet.But yes, I agree something must be done. So talk tachlis, what shall be done that isn't being done already?

Yea. I thought that maybe the word "the" was necessary and thats what was prompting the results so I deleted it while I double checked. It still didn't give me those results but I didn't see a need to put it back up.

Yea. I thought that maybe the word "the" was necessary and thats what was prompting the results so I deleted it while I double checked. It still didn't give me those results but I didn't see a need to put it back up.

were you located? but the results are deff ther and not based on my history. http://isearchfrom.com/

If our friend thinks its not as bad as the general population, then what is the general consensus? That we dont have it so bad.

Maybe parents should be educated that its bad enough in our community so that they can realize the signs and symptoms before they find their child passed out or c'v otherwise.

Yes maybe yeshivas (high school) should teach about drugs and alcohol. Its a parents job to teach a kid what is appropriate and what is not in the realm of sexual abuse. I know i've taught my kids what is appropriate touching and what is unacceptable. I would propose kallah teachers and those teaching chasanim to teach their students about sex addiction signs and symptoms and to reinforce the drugs and alcohol lessons which should be taught in yeshivas.

Educate them about what? Anyone taking them knows how dangerous they are. By the time they are at the stage of drugs they are quite exposed to the world at large.

Really?

When you have your first joint, you know how dangerous heroin is? You're not thinking about heroin. Youre thinking about Carlebach or Rav Nachman.

When your husband comes home and sexually abuses you because, hey you're married and its allowed, will you know that its inappropriate and part of his addiction?

When you go with the chevra to Atlantic City "for fun" and you cant stop thinking about that trip and when you will be going back and how you can get money when you have none do you know you're an addict. Will your loved ones know when you "borrow" money "for a week" that its not your next paycheck you're waiting for.

I dont want to make this personal but the bold statment makes me sense extreme naivete. How many teanagers are doing drugs and not exposed at all to the dangers of overdosing and only want a higher high??

When you have your first joint, you know how dangerous heroin is? You're not thinking about heroin. Youre thinking about Carlebach or Rav Nachman.

When your husband comes home and sexually abuses you because, hey you're married and its allowed, will you know that its inappropriate and part of his addiction?

When you go with the chevra to Atlantic City "for fun" and you cant stop thinking about that trip and when you will be going back and how you can get money when you have none do you know you're an addict. Will your loved ones know when you "borrow" money "for a week" that its not your next paycheck you're waiting for.

I dont want to make this personal but I sense extreme naivete.

What percentage would you think of people are not aware of the health risks when they start using drugs?

What percentage of people are not aware of the health risks when they start using drugs?

What percentage of yeshiva bochrim are doing pot on a regular basis and think its harmless. What percentage of yeshiva bochrim are gambling (legally and illegally) and know its bad for them in the long run?

There is a dearth of education on addiction in our community. On the parental level, the yeshiva/girl school level and on the level of the children themselves.

e.g. Telling a kid that a cardplayer is posul l'eidus will not stop him. Taking him to jail to visit an incarcerated compulsive gambler, may. We need to get a bit more graphic. Make it real. It's not a theoretical shtikel R' Chaim.

What percentage would you think of people are not aware of the health risks when they start using drugs?

I think a high percentage are not fully aware. If you ask someone smoking their first joint if heroin is bad they will of course know that it is, yet they have no understanding that they just took the first step towards that deadly addiction. I remember speaking to someone who told me he does everything except opiates bc "that stuff is too dangerous" one week later he was tested and opiates were found in his system. I asked him I thought u don't do opiates and he answered me "when I'm f+%ked up I'll do anything"

From what I understand in the last two three years the amount of guys in yeshiva's in Israel smoking weed (I'm talking yeshiva's like the Mir ) has gotten way out of control. Used to be only guys on the fringe were smoking and it was very hush hush.

I think a high percentage are not fully aware. If you ask someone smoking their first joint if heroin is bad they will of course know that it is, yet they have no understanding that they just took the first step towards that deadly addiction. I remember speaking to someone who told me he does everything except opiates bc "that stuff is too dangerous" one week later he was tested and opiates were found in his system. I asked him I thought u don't do opiates and he answered me "when I'm f+%ked up I'll do anything"

From what I understand in the last two three years the amount of guys in yeshiva's in Israel Brooklyn, Monsey, Lakewood, Connecticut [Insert your town here] smoking weed (I'm talking yeshiva's like the Mir ) has gotten way out of control. Used to be only guys on the fringe were smoking and it was very hush hush.

Afellow I know said that too. He's a pot head. He was out with his friends in July and they gave him some pot. They didnt tell him it was synthetic pot (K2). He ended up in the ICU for 8 days and now has lingering heart issues that he may carry for the rest of his life. Its a gateway drug at best and almost killed this guy.

Afellow I know said that too. He's a pot head. He was out with his friends in July and they gave him some pot. They didnt tell him it was synthetic pot (K2). He ended up in the ICU for 8 days and now has lingering heart issues that he may carry for the rest of his life. Its a gateway drug at best and almost killed this guy.

Please... someone lied to him nothing to do with taking drugs. Same thing could have happened with Advil (though less likely)

Without any proof i would assume most pot smokers have never taken any other drugs

It's the mentality that is dangerous. if weed is more acceptable in our community occasionally then there will be more ppl who smoke weed regularly if there are more ppl who smoke regularly there will naturally be more that turn to other drugs. It's hard to believe it's a coincidence that the marijuana problem in our communities has gotten bigger at the same time as dependencies on more severe drugs

It's the mentality that is dangerous. if weed is more acceptable in our community occasionally then there will be more ppl who smoke weed regularly if there are more ppl who smoke regularly there will naturally be more that turn to other drugs. It's hard to believe it's a coincidence that the marijuana problem in our communities has gotten bigger at the same time as dependencies on more severe drugs

If you are saying its a gateway drug? It has not been proven. I would say over 50% of my friends smoke weed and no one takes any pills.

We should stop drinking grape juice/ more likely to start drinking/ which is then more likely to start drinking scotch / more likely to become an alcoholic

Please... someone lied to him nothing to do with taking drugs. Same thing could have happened with Advil (though less likely)

Without any proof i would assume most pot smokers have never taken any other drugs

Pot, is pot, is pot. No one lied to him. It was pot. Same thing could NOT have happened with advil. What are you talking about?

Seems like you're trying to justify pot use as not so bad. Thats fair because in the crazy world we live in it is legal in certain places. So who am I to say its a gateway for frum people who have never been exposed to drugs and leads them to try other stuff, abuse alcohol, slack off from responsibilities, etc. Just a casual observer i guess. Or I'm assuming stuff like you.

Pot, is pot, is pot. No one lied to him. It was pot. Same thing could NOT have happened with advil. What are you talking about?

Seems like you're trying to justify pot use as not so bad. Thats fair because in the crazy world we live in it is legal in certain places. So who am I to say its a gateway for frum people who have never been exposed to drugs and leads them to try other stuff, abuse alcohol, slack off from responsibilities, etc. Just a casual observer i guess. Or I'm assuming stuff like you.

If you are saying its a gateway drug? It has not been proven. I would say over 50% of my friends smoke weed and no one takes any pills.YET

We should stop drinking grape juice/ more likely to start drinking/ which is then more likely to start drinking scotch / more likely to become an alcoholic

FTFY

Yes I'm saying for the frum oilem its a gateway drug as it has become acceptable. And if you have any idea about addiction you would know that recovering alcoholics do not drink grape juice because it can lead them down that road. Just more proof of your lack of education.

Yes I'm saying for the frum oilem its a gateway drug as it has become acceptable. And if you have any idea about addiction you would know that recovering alcoholics do not drink grape juice because it can lead them down that road. Just more proof of your lack of education.

You are going the wrong way. Just because a drug addict cant drink grape juice. Doesnt mean if you drink grape juice you will become addicted

Yes I'm saying for the frum oilem its a gateway drug as it has become acceptable. And if you have any idea about addiction you would know that recovering alcoholics do not drink grape juice because it can lead them down that road. Just more proof of your lack of education.

Yes I'm saying for the frum oilem its a gateway drug as it has become acceptable. And if you have any idea about addiction you would know that recovering alcoholics do not drink grape juice because it can lead them down that road. Just more proof of your lack of education.

There are substances that are legal to use. That's a fact.People (the general public) have a right to do whatever they want to themselves, whether it helps or harms them (cigarettes, drugs, cutting, suicide).

As a Jew, one has an obligation to live, to not harm themselves.When a jew gets a religious depression they turn to rebelling, whether public (change of friends and religious affiliation) or private (substances and religious observance).

If the jewish community come out against drugs full force they will only further the gap (case in point: Internet).

Rather let's accept the facts that substances exist and are accessible to all, but focus only having these questions with 20+ yr olds (which substances doesn't have great harm) rather than with 15 yr olds (where substances have a great harm).

There are substances that are legal to use. That's a fact.People (the general public) have a right to do whatever they want to themselves, whether it helps or harms them (cigarettes, drugs, cutting, suicide).

As a Jew, one has an obligation to live, to not harm themselves.When a jew gets a religious depression they turn to rebelling, whether public (change of friends and religious affiliation) or private (substances and religious observance).

If the jewish community come out against drugs full force they will only further the gap (case in point: Internet).

Rather let's accept the facts that substances exist and are accessible to all, but focus only having these questions with 20+ yr olds (which substances doesn't have great harm) rather than with 15 yr olds (where substances have a great harm).

There are substances that are legal to use. That's a fact.People (the general public) have a right to do whatever they want to themselves, whether it helps or harms them (cigarettes, drugs, cutting, suicide).

As a Jew, one has an obligation to live, to not harm themselves.When a jew gets a religious depression they turn to rebelling, whether public (change of friends and religious affiliation) or private (substances and religious observance).

If the jewish community come out against drugs full force they will only further the gap (case in point: Internet).

Rather let's accept the facts that substances exist and are accessible to all, but focus only having these questions with 20+ yr olds (which substances doesn't have great harm) rather than with 15 yr olds (where substances have a great harm).

accepted, now what will you do that your son/daughter will hold back from starting to smoke? (referring to reg tobacco as well?)''people have a right'' are you serious? so let it happen?? why not educate how harmful all the above are?

accepted, now what will you do that your son/daughter will hold back from starting to smoke? (referring to reg tobacco as well?)''people have a right'' are you serious? so let it happen?? why not educate how harmful all the above are?

Cigarettes have been around for years. How are we doing with educating people about that?

Face facts, that education doesn't trump what people see in the world.

Peer pressure is extremely harmful and no amount of yelling will help.

It already went up a notch, it goes by searches. If it went up after a couple ddfers searched it, it is quite obviously because of this issue being discussed. Don't see why that's sad. If u get the whole ddf to search for something random it'll also make it to the top of the suggested list...

It already went up a notch, it goes by searches. If it went up after a couple ddfers searched it, it is quite obviously because of this issue being discussed. Don't see why that's sad. If u get the whole ddf to search for something random it'll also make it to the top of the suggested list...

No way if you get everyone on ddf to search for something it will jump to the top of the list. Billions of people use Google

No way if you get everyone on ddf to search for something it will jump to the top of the list. Billions of people use Google

If u get everyone to search something specific. For instance being that ur so concerned about the search phrase "drug abuse in the Jewish community", how about everyone search for "drug abuse in the USA" we can turn this around in the next half hour guys and then @ya won't be so sad...

Drugs are a serious issue. First you need to educate the parents what to look for because the problem is already here. Then you need to educate the kids on all fronts. Home, school, sports or whenever there is a opportunity.

You also need to debunk the myths like kids that smoke pot are 100 times more likely to use heroine. Correlation isn’t cause!

There are substances that are legal to use. That's a fact.People (the general public) have a right to do whatever they want to themselves, whether it helps or harms them (cigarettes, drugs, cutting, suicide).

As a Jew, one has an obligation to live, to not harm themselves.When a jew gets a religious depression they turn to rebelling, whether public (change of friends and religious affiliation) or private (substances and religious observance).

If the jewish community come out against drugs full force they will only further the gap (case in point: Internet).

Rather let's accept the facts that substances exist and are accessible to all, but focus only having these questions with 20+ yr olds (which substances doesn't have great harm) rather than with 15 yr olds (where substances have a great harm).

Once again, you know nothing on this topic so please get lost. Yes, a smoking habit is more difficult to kick than a heroin habit. Ask any peraon who has tried atopping and any therapist you wish. Its damn hard.

It is a huge problem. I think if you'd take a survey if parents think medium alcohol or mild marijuana use (for a high schooler) is worse, you'd get very different results from the Jewish community than American society at large.

Once again, you know nothing on this topic so please get lost. Yes, a smoking habit is more difficult to kick than a heroin habit. Ask any peraon who has tried atopping and any therapist you wish. Its damn hard.

I find that hard to believe. Show me a source please. I stopped smoking though i never touched heroin.

I think we are off the rails here. Education regarding addiction is what is lacking. We all know that drug and alcohol use by a non-addict in moderatiom is ok. Education of parents and children on recognizing the signs and symptoms and the treatments and help that are available to addicts is sorely needed.

I find that hard to believe. Show me a source please. I stopped smoking though i never touched heroin.

You stopped smoking cigarettes and you smoke pot. How long have you stopped for. And who said that you touched heroin. Im saying the difficulty of quitting is comparable or harder than quitting heroin. I too have quit smoking, multiple times. Im on year 4 without cigarettes or any other tobbaco or e-cig and i want one every day.

I think we are off the rails here. Education regarding addiction is what is lacking. We all know that drug and alcohol use by a non-addict in moderatiom is ok. Education of parents and children on recognizing the signs and symptoms and the treatments and help that are available to addicts is sorely needed.

Lets not forget an important issue is why they are turning to alcohol/drugs?

You stopped smoking cigarettes and you smoke pot. How long have you stopped for. And who said that you touched heroin. Im saying the difficulty of quitting is comparable or harder than quitting heroin. I too have quit smoking, multiple times. Im on year 4 without cigarettes or any other tobbaco or e-cig and i want one every day.

Once again, you know nothing on this topic so please get lost. Yes, a smoking habit is more difficult to kick than a heroin habit. Ask any peraon who has tried atopping and any therapist you wish. Its damn hard.

I really dont want to go off on a tangent here as theyre both extremely difficult habits to stop. However, heroin has much more acute physical withdrawal symptoms.

The reason people say that cigarette smoking is harder to kick is due to the fact that you are (used to be) able to smoke anywhere. And they sell cigarettes everywhere. If a heroin addict stops using heroin and moves to a nice area where he doesnt associate with anyone using heroin he wont have to think about it every time he steps out on the street. However, someone who quits smoking will still have to smell it every time he walks down the street and see it in every gas station and convenience store he walks into. Its also harder to mentally justify since most people havent lost their job or their spouse or their kids because they smoked cigarettes.

But just saying that a smoking habit is harder to kick than heroin is just plain incorrect.

I really dont want to go off on a tangent here as theyre both extremely difficult habits to stop. However, heroin has much more acute physical withdrawal symptoms.

The reason people say that cigarette smoking is harder to kick is due to the fact that you are (used to be) able to smoke anywhere. And they sell cigarettes everywhere. If a heroin addict stops using heroin and moves to a nice area where he doesnt associate with anyone using heroin he wont have to think about it every time he steps out on the street. However, someone who quits smoking will still have to smell it every time he walks down the street and see it in every gas station and convenience store he walks into. Its also harder to mentally justify since most people havent lost their job or their spouse or their kids because they smoked cigarettes.

But just saying that a smoking habit is harder to kick than heroin is just plain incorrect.

Any mental health professional i have ever spoken with regarding this has compared the two and said cigarettes are harder for every reason you state. The ready availability and legal use trumps any physical symptoms that may occur with heroin withdrawal. There is no antidote to the ready availability of cigarettes. Also, the physical effects of smoking are not as readily apparent to a smoker.

Any mental health professional i have ever spoken with regarding this has compared the two and said cigarettes are harder for every reason you state. The ready availability and legal use trumps any physical symptoms that may occur with heroin withdrawal. There is no antidote to the ready availability of cigarettes. Also, the physical effects of smoking are not as readily apparent to a smoker.

I quit smoking cigarettes and had it really easy since then (9 years now).Never did heroin but I cannot fathom how the worlds most infamously addictive drug is considered less addictive than cigarettes.

Bottom line, what will you do the next time you suspect someone you know/love/care about is an addict? Will you be able to recognize the early warning signs? Do you know where or to whom to turn to for proper advice and guidance?

Educate yourself. The next crop of addicts are already acting out in their addiction. Learn the signs now.

Bottom line, what will you do the next time you suspect someone you know/love/care about is an addict? Will you be able to recognize the early warning signs? Do you know where or to whom to turn to for proper advice and guidance?

Educate yourself. The next crop of addicts are already acting out in their addiction. Learn the signs now.

I quit smoking cigarettes and had it really easy since then (9 years now).Never did heroin but I cannot fathom how the worlds most infamously addictive drug is considered less addictive than cigarettes.

I'm sure if I did heroin as a bochur you would count it. Hence, you'll be agreeing that heroin is far more addictive.

The chemical addiction power from small time usage of heroin is definitely stronger than tobacco. That just speaks about how easy it to get addicted; it doesn't say anything about the ease of quitting once the addiction is there. I think the average bochur smoking has a lower chemical addiction and different league mental addiction than a real addicted smoker. They have no right to judge from their experience what quitting is like for an addicted smoker.

The chemical addiction power from small time usage of heroin is definitely stronger than tobacco. That just speaks about how easy it to get addicted; it doesn't say anything about the ease of quitting once the addiction is there. I think the average bochur smoking has a lower chemical addiction and different league mental addiction than a real addicted smoker. They have no right to judge from their experience what quitting is like for an addicted smoker.

Now you're creating arbitrary lines to define addicted smokers. Someone that smokes a pack daily for years is addicted.

Now you're creating arbitrary lines to define addicted smokers. Someone that smokes a pack daily for years is addicted.

Agreed. But it seems easier for bochurim to quit. I'd venture a guess that many bochurim who were addicted and "quit" easily, when they wanted, even for a few years, end up taking up smoking or another addiction at some point later in life.

The chemical addiction power from small time usage of heroin is definitely stronger than tobacco. That just speaks about how easy it to get addicted; it doesn't say anything about the ease of quitting once the addiction is there. I think the average bochur smoking has a lower chemical addiction and different league mental addiction than a real addicted smoker. They have no right to judge from their experience what quitting is like for an addicted smoker.

I don't profess to be knowledgeable about addiction.

I'm not sure how you established your (seemingly) arbitrary distinction of who is a real addicted smoker or not.just curious are you a current or former smoker? No one can judge the ease or difficulty of someone else quiting their addiction. Its not a matter of sharing some general similarities like if their married or not. Genetics, personality and life experiences play a much larger role in addiction and a persons ability to quit.

in a certain way this is a bigger issue. Most people taking heroin know its wrong but for whatever reason take it anyway. Pills alot of guys get hooked on it when they take it after surgery or an injury etc.

in a certain way this is a bigger issue. Most people taking heroin know its wrong but for whatever reason take it anyway. PillsWeed alot of guys get hooked on it when they take it after surgery or an injury etc.

Needle marks. Best places to hide drug use. Track marks on the arms and legs are too obvious. Seen teenagers try to hide their use between toes and under fingernails and toenails, especially polished nails.

Needle marks. Best places to hide drug use. Track marks on the arms and legs are too obvious. Seen teenagers try to hide their use between toes and under fingernails and toenails, especially polished nails.

Agreed. But it seems easier for bochurim to quit. I'd venture a guess that many bochurim who were addicted and "quit" easily, when they wanted, even for a few years, end up taking up smoking or another addiction at some point later in life.

Thats just my anecdotal observation.

From my limited understanding and reading, it would seem that the psychological addiction is not as strong, because the user never intended to be doing it long term. Someone who cannot imagine life without cigarettes is going to have a harder time stopping than one who doesn't envision himself going through life with cigarettes. The psychological dependency seems to be less when one always planned on quitting before a predefined period. Most boys know that they're going to have to stop before getting married, and never plan or dream otherwise. This doesn't make stopping easy, but I think the dependency developes to a lesser degree. I am by no means an expert.

From my limited understanding and reading, it would seem that the psychological addiction is not as strong, because the user never intended to be doing it long term. Someone who cannot imagine life without cigarettes is going to have a harder time stopping than one who doesn't envision himself going through life with cigarettes. The psychological dependency seems to be less when one always planned on quitting before a predefined period. Most boys know that they're going to have to stop before getting married, and never plan or dream otherwise. This doesn't make stopping easy, but I think the dependency developes to a lesser degree. I am by no means an expert.

By that standard, heroin addiction is not real because no one plans on taking it long term.

A poem written by a friend of a (Frum) girl that OD'd (on Heroin) this week. Nebach.

Dear heroin,This time I wont go to the funeral.This time I wont hear how she was an angel that left us too soon. This time I wont let myself feel.If I allow myself to feel it will become too real.This time I will get angry. This time I will question. I will make room for the anger in my heart. It feels more comfortable in there than the truth. The truth can't get me anywhere anyways. What can you possibly tell me that can justify taking someone barely old enough to make decisions on her own? You decided for her. You sealed her fate without her even having a say. You whisked her away with the promise of a beautiful romanceYou whispered words of comfort while slowly peeling her life away. Why did you let her take you in her arms and hold you close When all the while you intended on getting close enough to hurt her. She turned to you as a heroine in her darkest moment, expecting you to save her like she was taught you would.You blinded her with promises of momentary blissYou deceived her with your innocent nameThis time I wont go to the funeral.This time I wont hear how she was an angel that left us too soon. This time I wont let myself feel, feeling are overrated anyways. Wasn't that your favorite part?When you let her fall into a state of surrender,completely numb and oblivious to her existence?When you bribed her with a false sense of freedom......You always made the freedom look so beautiful. Your name was spoken in the last 12 hours enough for a lifetime. Enough to make up for all the names that go unmentioned, all those identities you strip.Your name tastes like salt on my tongue. Your name sounds like a curse out of hell. Its ironic because we learn that you save the day.I knew your name as someone I can look up to.I wanted to be just like you.Growing up you end up learning that sometimes the heroine isn't the savior You didn't have any mercy, you usually don't. Oh the irony

+1All this "poem" tells me is that the writer couldn't tell the difference between "heroine" and "heroin". Everyone knows that. I'm still stumped as to its meaning other than channelling sorrow in an art form...with little substance. In my first reading it was just words words words words. And thats why it reminded me of that OTD video where the gentleman was "just saying". In other words...words words words words. No action.

If you don't get poetry than just say that, you are sounding really silly to me.

It's a beautiful poem, and yes I love poetry so maybe I'm biased. The beauty is that is is open to interpretation and allows the reader to take it to heart or not depending on how they read it and understand it, it can be much more powerful than a simply stated idea.

Before I give my interpretation I just want to say that I don't understand how you can say words words words when the main call for action that you are suggesting here is education, and how exactly is education done? "Words words words."

Words are one of the most powerful forces in the world, you will never get anywhere without using them, insulting them doesn't sound very smart to me.

Anyway with that said the poem to me is coming from a girl who is living in a similar situation, the author had a tough childhood with no one to look up to. She is an adult now and can do what she wants, many of her friends from similar backgrounds take heroin and claim that it saved them and changed their life from miserable to wonderful. Yet she has held off the easy path and been working hard to avoid it.

Being that she never had a good role model to look up to she and her friends see heroin as a heroine that can take them out of their sad life and make them instantly happy.

After a few friends being killed from heroin she is realizing it's not time to blame the person or say how good a person they were, it's time to realize that heroin is no heroine at all but rather a filthy lying scumbag who just like an abusive husband, promises to give her the world but really all it does it destroy it.

I think for someone who was considering heroin this can be very educational and a good read.

If you don't get poetry than just say that, you are sounding really silly to me.

It's a beautiful poem, and yes I love poetry so maybe I'm biased. The beauty is that is is open to interpretation and allows the reader to take it to heart or not depending on how they read it and understand it, it can be much more powerful than a simply stated idea.

Before I give my interpretation I just want to say that I don't understand how you can say words words words when the main call for action that you are suggesting here is education, and how exactly is education done? "Words words words."

Words one of the most powerful forces in the world, you will never get anywhere without using them, insulting them doesn't sound very smart to me.

Anyway with that said the poem to me is coming from a girl who is living in a similar situation, the author had a tough childhood with no one to look up to. She is an adult now and can do what she wants, many of her friends from similar backgrounds take heroin and claim that it saved them and changed their life from miserable to wonderful. Yet she has held off the easy path and been working hard to avoid it.

Being that she never had a good role model to look up to she and her friends see heroin as a heroine that can take them out of their sad life and make them instantly happy.

After a few friends being killed from heroin she is realizing it's not time to blame the person or say how good a person they were, it's time to realize that heroin is no heroine at all but rather a filthy lying scumbag who just like an abusive husband, promises to give her the world but really all it does it destroy it.

I think for someone who was considering heroin this can be very educational and a good read.

If you don't get poetry than just say that, you are sounding really silly to me.

It's a beautiful poem, and yes I love poetry so maybe I'm biased. The beauty is that is is open to interpretation and allows the reader to take it to heart or not depending on how they read it and understand it, it can be much more powerful than a simply stated idea.

Before I give my interpretation I just want to say that I don't understand how you can say words words words when the main call for action that you are suggesting here is education, and how exactly is education done? "Words words words."

Words are one of the most powerful forces in the world, you will never get anywhere without using them, insulting them doesn't sound very smart to me.

Anyway with that said the poem to me is coming from a girl who is living in a similar situation, the author had a tough childhood with no one to look up to. She is an adult now and can do what she wants, many of her friends from similar backgrounds take heroin and claim that it saved them and changed their life from miserable to wonderful. Yet she has held off the easy path and been working hard to avoid it.

Being that she never had a good role model to look up to she and her friends see heroin as a heroine that can take them out of their sad life and make them instantly happy.

After a few friends being killed from heroin she is realizing it's not time to blame the person or say how good a person they were, it's time to realize that heroin is no heroine at all but rather a filthy lying scumbag who just like an abusive husband, promises to give her the world but really all it does it destroy it.

I think for someone who was considering heroin this can be very educational and a good read.

If you don't get poetry than just say that, you are sounding really silly to me.

It's a beautiful poem, and yes I love poetry so maybe I'm biased. The beauty is that is is open to interpretation and allows the reader to take it to heart or not depending on how they read it and understand it, it can be much more powerful than a simply stated idea.

Before I give my interpretation I just want to say that I don't understand how you can say words words words when the main call for action that you are suggesting here is education, and how exactly is education done? "Words words words."

Words are one of the most powerful forces in the world, you will never get anywhere without using them, insulting them doesn't sound very smart to me.

Anyway with that said the poem to me is coming from a girl who is living in a similar situation, the author had a tough childhood with no one to look up to. She is an adult now and can do what she wants, many of her friends from similar backgrounds take heroin and claim that it saved them and changed their life from miserable to wonderful. Yet she has held off the easy path and been working hard to avoid it.

Being that she never had a good role model to look up to she and her friends see heroin as a heroine that can take them out of their sad life and make them instantly happy.

After a few friends being killed from heroin she is realizing it's not time to blame the person or say how good a person they were, it's time to realize that heroin is no heroine at all but rather a filthy lying scumbag who just like an abusive husband, promises to give her the world but really all it does it destroy it.

I think for someone who was considering heroin this can be very educational and a good read.

How about for those that are uncomfortable going to churches to have it in a neutral setting where they are willing to go

1. Thats where the meetings are held. 2. If the stigma of going to meetings wouldnt be there then The frum community could set aside space for meetings in their public places.3. An addict is never willing to go until it is usually late in the game and they have a lot on the line. So making them comfortable shouldnt be a high priority.4. Do every sin in the book and them claim to be too frum to go to a church owned social hall is the height of hypocrisy. 5. The meetings are not held in the church sanctuary. They are usually held in ancillary facilities. If you need a heter to go there go ask your LOR. If he doesnt give it to you i will take your place in gehinom.

1. Thats where the meetings are held. 2. If the stigma of going to meetings wouldnt be there then The frum community could set aside space for meetings in their public places.3. An addict is never willing to go until it is usually late in the game and they have a lot on the line. So making them comfortable shouldnt be a high priority.4. Do every sin in the book and them claim to be too frum to go to a church owned social hall is the height of hypocrisy. 5. The meetings are not held in the church sanctuary. They are usually held in ancillary facilities. If you need a heter to go there go ask your LOR. If he doesnt give it to you i will take your place in gehinom.

One important aspect that many people miss regarding these issues is contagion. We keep hearing over and over again how important awareness is, and in many ways it is true. On the other hand though, publicizing these issues has its own pitfalls. It has been shown that the more publicized a suicide is the more copycat cases there are. When there is a high profile celebrity suicide there has been shown to be a noticeable rise in the suicide rate. As such much care must be taken to not work so hard to fix the issue that it only gets made worse. This is a very fine line to toe. It would be a shame for people with the best intentions to help solve this issue to unknowing actually cause it to get worse.

The issue is there are no meetings in frum places. I know of meetings in reform temples, community centers and shuls. They are not teeming with frum people either. So lets get real about the stigma thats placed on people that go to meetings. You can count on one hand the number of frum people at each meeting.

One important aspect that many people miss regarding these issues is contagion. We keep hearing over and over again how important awareness is, and in many ways it is true. On the other hand though, publicizing these issues has its own pitfalls. It has been shown that the more publicized a suicide is the more copycat cases there are. When there is a high profile celebrity suicide there has been shown to be a noticeable rise in the suicide rate. As such much care must be taken to not work so hard to fix the issue that it only gets made worse. This is a very fine line to toe. It would be a shame for people with the best intentions to help solve this issue to unknowing actually cause it to get worse.

So you say awareness may make the problem worse? I'm not a betting man but i would venture a guess that your position is just another excuse to sweep the issue under the rug. All i hear are excuses for not dealing with the issues instead of solutions to the issues.

One important aspect that many people miss regarding these issues is contagion. We keep hearing over and over again how important awareness is, and in many ways it is true. On the other hand though, publicizing these issues has its own pitfalls. It has been shown that the more publicized a suicide is the more copycat cases there are. When there is a high profile celebrity suicide there has been shown to be a noticeable rise in the suicide rate. As such much care must be taken to not work so hard to fix the issue that it only gets made worse. This is a very fine line to toe. It would be a shame for people with the best intentions to help solve this issue to unknowing actually cause it to get worse.

So you say awareness may make the problem worse? I'm not a betting man but i would venture a guess that your position is just another excuse to sweep the issue under the rug. All i hear are excuses for not dealing with the issues instead of solutions to the issues.

It is proven science, but not the horrors of it rather the fact that there are those doing it. In our case more people knowing that there is an issue within the frum community can cause others within that community to follow suit.

So you say awareness may make the problem worse? I'm not a betting man but i would venture a guess that your position is just another excuse to sweep the issue under the rug. All i hear are excuses for not dealing with the issues instead of solutions to the issues.

I am not saying that the issue not be dealt with rather that it be dealt with using EXTREME care and by people who are knowledgable enough about the potential consequences of what they are doing to avoid unintended pitfalls.

I am not saying that the issue not be dealt with rather that it be dealt with using EXTREME care and by people who are knowledgable enough about the potential consequences of what they are doing to avoid unintended pitfalls.

It is proven science, but not the horrors of it rather the fact that there are those doing it. In our case more people knowing that there is an issue within the frum community can cause others within that community to follow suit.

The publication in the form of a body count or how to get help doesn't in any way shape or form lend increased cases of addiction.

I challenge you to even try to present a realistic scenereo of how this can happen.

Did you look at the links I posted above? There are many many more for both suicide and addiction as well as other destructive behaviors. These are real studies done by professionals who work with these things on a professional basis and were published in peer reviewed journals. That is certainly not torah misinai but that it doesn't make sense to the person sitting behind a keyboard or even someone involved who did not review the numbers is irrelevant.

Of course but the underlying science applies to any destructive action. By seeing that others do it makes it seem more acceptable to those on the brink.

I'm at a loss as to why you are comparing suicide, which is more of an instantaneous thing, to addiction which is something that builds up over months and years. That's why guard rails on bridges and such protections reduce suicide rates - those "on the brink" will reconsider or get help given extra time. Addiction is not an "on the brink" issue.

No doubt copycat suicides exist, we saw it blatantly in our community a few years ago. That is a far cry from a young man reading about the horrors of addiction and thinking, hey, let me try that," and then getting hooked over the course of an extended period of time.

I'm at a loss as to why you are comparing suicide, which is more of an instantaneous thing, to addiction which is something that builds up over months and years. That's why guard rails on bridges and such protections reduce suicide rates - those "on the brink" will reconsider or get help given extra time. Addiction is not an "on the brink" issue.

No doubt copycat suicides exist, we saw it blatantly in our community a few years ago. That is a far cry from a young man reading about the horrors of addiction and thinking, hey, let me try that," and then getting hooked over the course of an extended period of time.

It has been shown to be true for addiction as well. It is not someone saying "hey let me do it too" it is that it becomes more acceptable in his mind by seeing that others do it. I will link to articles specifically about addiction.

OK, even if we accept that there may be some how, someone, who thinks that drug abuse is more acceptable due to the publication of its horrors. (For argument's sake ). Are you seriously going to argue that this miniscule theory is not overwhelmingly canceled out by the very logical, and realistic, and proven, and scientific fact - that awareness of the dangers, the risk factors, the treatment and help options available will most certainly save lives???

OK, even if we accept that there may be some how, someone, who thinks that drug abuse is more acceptable due to the publication of its horrors. (For argument's sake ). Are you seriously going to argue that this miniscule theory is not overwhelmingly canceled out by the very logical, and realistic, and proven, and scientific fact - that awareness of the dangers, the risk factors, the treatment and help options available will most certainly save lives???

I showed SCIENTIFIC STUDIES which showed the numbers as it being very real. What are you bringing to the table? Can you show any hard facts other than the claim they exist? On what basis do you call their study a miniscule theory and YOUR boich svara proven scientific fact?

I am not saying that the issue not be dealt with rather that it be dealt with using EXTREME care and by people who are knowledgable enough about the potential consequences of what they are doing to avoid unintended pitfalls.

The only ones knowlegeable enough in our community are the recoving addicts themselves. Anyone else is unqualified. Rabbonim who dont allow addicts to go to meetings in churches are rotzchim. Therapists that advocate just therapy are being hoodwinked left and righy by addicts who's sole goal is to get over on people to get to the next fix.

Get over this EXTREME care crap and educate the community on the signs of addiction and the recovery aspects. 5% of people who go to GA stop for more than 5 years. Without meetings there is no hope that they would stop at all.

Get over this EXTREME care crap and educate the community on the signs of addiction and the recovery aspects. 5% of people who go to GA stop for more than 5 years. Without meetings there is no hope that they would stop at all.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The community can be educated with it being done with extreme care. To do it carelessly and based on the emotions of recovering addicts as opposed to those who know hard numbers and studies of what the proper approach is to educate without exacerbating the issue makes no sense. Do it, but do it RIGHT. Doing it wrong can be counterproductive. We are not dealing with a case where doing the wrong thing is better than doing nothing.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The community can be educated with it being done with extreme care. To do it carelessly and based on the emotions of recovering addicts as opposed to those who know hard numbers and studies of what the proper approach is to educate without exacerbating the issue makes no sense. Do it, but do it RIGHT. Doing it wrong can be counterproductive. We are not dealing with a case where doing the wrong thing is better than doing nothing.

I jist cant stand the pussyfooting. In 9th grade it was פתח פתוח. As an adult we call it something else. Extreme care, mameleh, tateleh, shefeleh talk creates a worse atmosphere then just saying it the way it is.

I showed SCIENTIFIC STUDIES which showed the numbers as it being very real. What are you bringing to the table? Can you show any hard facts other than the claim they exist? On what basis do you call their study a miniscule theory and YOUR boich svara proven scientific fact?

You and your Google.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Parents being aware of the signs of drug abuse before it's out of hand is no boich sevara. It's simple basic common sense.

Not to mention the accepted opinion of every local professional in the field, the rosh yeshivas and many leading rabbonim in Lakewood is to bring as much awareness to the issue as possible.

You're the one digging up ridiculous studies, that have no connection to our community, the type of publicity, or the issue at hand.

Again, please try to paint a realistic scenerio where an at risk person would use hard drugs due to this type of publicity. It's unfathomable.

Basically a young married kollel wife living in jlem was supposed to be looking out for her cousin in sem... Due to her pure heligeh, sheltered education, she missed all the signs that her cousin was using until it was very very late. - cash/items missing, behavior, etc etc.

I jist cant stand the pussyfooting. In 9th grade it was פתח פתוח. As an adult we call it something else. Extreme care, mameleh, tateleh, shefeleh talk creates a worse atmosphere then just saying it the way it is.

Who is talking about atmosphere? If all of the well meaning campaigns cause more people to become addicts than they help was it worth it?

Wake up and smell the coffee. Parents being aware of the signs of drug abuse before it's out of hand is no boich sevara. It's simple basic common sense.

Not to mention the accepted opinion of every local professional in the field, the rosh yeshivas and many leading rabbonim in Lakewood is to bring as much awareness to the issue as possible.

You're the one digging up ridiculous studies, that have no connection to our community, the type of publicity, or the issue at hand.

My original source was not google. Google only helps if you know what to search for.

Of course it is important for parents to be aware. Of course there should be awareness. It simply needs to be done properly. There are ways to do it without the pitfalls. It can be publicized to parents and teachers without publicizing it to potential victims. The type of publicity the studies deal with is primarily publicity in the media and to the masses. Why is an article in The VOice different? When someone sees that "there are hundreds of kids with this issue" it changes from being "we don't do that" to "some do that". It gives social acceptance. How can seeing someone do it give social acceptance to something a person knows that the vast majority are not doing? The psychologists have all sorts of science about it. The fact is that it exists enough that there is a noticeable rise in people killing themselves after a publicized suicide even though they now that most don't do that. After a murder/suicide there is a rise in multi-fatality car accidents. The numbers are there. Why do you insist on ignoring them baselessly? It is very easy for an askan to say how if there would be more publicity it would help based on it helping a specific aspect of a problem. In order to prevent unwanted and unintended side effects they need to be willing to listen to research others have done. This is no different than what you have in the past discussed about the Lakewood School Board. There may have been an issue with the previous askanim that needed to be resolved and it may or may not have been taken care of but there were harmful side effects. What is the point of ignoring science which can tell you how to avoid them? What do you have against making sure to do it right?

One of the methods discussed to prevent abuse is to create a reverse effect.

Again, please try to paint a realistic scenerio where an at risk person would use hard drugs due to this type of publicity. It's unfathomable.

How do you expect to fathom the mindset of someone on the road to addiction? Can you fathom the mind of someone who killed himself and his whole family? The numbers show that publicity has an effect on them. Why would you ignore it? By doing so you are taking a big risk. Do you have the research to make that decision?

Basically a young married kollel wife living in jlem was supposed to be looking out for her cousin in sem... Due to her pure heligeh, sheltered education, she missed all the signs that her cousin was using until it was very very late. - cash/items missing, behavior, etc etc.

A little awareness could have saved the situation.

Of course there are benefits to awareness and it is extremely important, but why do you insist on it being done carelessly? Get it done right and prevent killing one to save the other.

Though his real issue is that he feels that if good kids learn about drugs they are somewhat tainted. - I appreciate this sentiment. It is actually an integral part of our mahalach in chinuch, it's almost instinct. - protect the kids from seeing or learning about anything negative..

@aygart, just fyi, there are plenty of adults at risk. Its not just 15 year olds...Maybe we shouldn't publicize it though...

I am sure there are. I gave an illustration. There is a whole world out there where this is a bigger issue than in the frum community which has gone through the numbers and the facts to come up with real and effective methods. We would be better off learning from these than sticking our heads in the sand like you are and just saying emotional slogans to feel like we are doing something. Do something right instead of just doing something for the sake of doing it.

Your "dealing with it head on" is an excuse not do deal with it properly and effectively with less risk.

The next time you get scammed by a ponzi schemer, gambler, thief, drug addict, sex addict, alcoholic etc. deal with it properly with less risk. Every one of these and then some are a direct product of not dealing with it head on. Only after it happens do we ask how it happened.

Please PM me your number so i can forward every call i get from people that are looking for my "excuse for not doing the right thing".

I am not judging you at all. I was trying to make a point that just because I said something should be done with care does not mean nothing should be done. The issue I brought up is real and to ignore it is just as much putting heads in the sand as to do nothing. It seems that you are involved in this issue and I respect you greatly for that. I cannot respect you for attacking me for simply saying that things need to be done with care. If I said it baselessly that would be one thing but these are real studies done by some very respected psychologists based on real numbers. Don't push them off saying that it means doing nothing. Use their advice to help people even more than you are already. That is all I am saying to do. If you have a tool why not use it?

The next time you get scammed by a ponzi schemer, gambler, thief, drug addict, sex addict, alcoholic etc. deal with it properly with less risk. Every one of these and then some are a direct product of not dealing with it head on. Only after it happens do we ask how it happened.

Sometimes they are a product of not dealing with it head on and sometimes they are not. Dealing head on doesn't have to mean ignoring real information out there. Take advantage of their work.

Cmiiw but I don't think @aygart is advocating against bringing awareness to the issues. His point was that we should do it in a systematic and evidence based approach. Btw i recall other studies that came to a similiar conclusion regarding scare tactics having the opposite and negative impact.

Cmiiw but I don't think @aygart is advocating against bringing awareness to the issues. His point was that we should do it in a systematic and evidence based approach. Btw i recall other studies that came to a similiar conclusion regarding scare tactics having the opposite and negative impact.

Y'all just uncomfortable with this. You seem to be nitpicking excuses to avoid the topic. No one can articulate what's wrong.. it's more "ess past nisht" to publicly talk about such horrible things.

Not you personally, just a broad sentiment in the community...

When you have that attitude and attack when people say that a certain issue should be considered it prevents you from improving your methods. Robert Cialdini is a renowned expert in how people get influenced and the author of some of the most basic books on this matter. He was hired by the Obama campaign to hone their message to influence people. There are methods discussed in the papers I linked to which work on getting the best of all worlds. Don't attack me for saying they should be considered. There are ways to take them into consideration. AN example is how one should be careful when discussing it to focus on the horrors of addiction without focusing on whether or not it is prevelant. Can that be honed better? Probably. Instead of saying that improving means doing nothing lets get to know the right methods and help those who need it without drumming up more business.

But you also explain to kids exactly how they can actually be tempted, offered, pressured, enticed. - By other frum kids and frum adult drug pushers within the community!!!

Yes, the message needs to be thought through very well before to have the best effect with the least risk, but my point is that within the message and the awareness it can be done in different ways and it is important to take aspect other than just the greatest shock and awe into account.

If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly

If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly

I hear the concern and addressed it already.

Professionals and rabbonim have considered this angle and still approved of publicizing the prevalence within the community. It is a crucial piece of the picture.

You cant bring awareness and educate about an issue that many are under the impression that it doesn't exist!

If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly

If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly

Please explain how it can be done properly, without exposing kids to some of it. I dont advocate teaching sex ed or other things in school.

However, My Bar mitzvah age son's classmates are gambling on football games every week. Its small money...by our standards. But one out of 30 is bound to lose more than he can afford. This is in a mainstream brooklyn yeshivah. How do you not explain the dangers of compulsive gambling to 13 year olds.

If the message is harmful then it should be stifled. If not it should be continued and honed to make it be the best message possible.

Let's put this to rest. You don't know what you're talking about as far as actual facts on the ground. Yes, you linked a few studies that are tangentially related. But due to the complexity and insularity of the community, your concerns are so minor, they pale in the face of the clear and present danger of dismissing the problem as almost not applicable to us.

I am not advocating not raising awareness and I would say yes scream from the rooftops just check with experts what to scream from the rooftops. Don't just come.out of yeshiva open an organization and start yelling whatever pops into your head as being right from the rooftops. That's all. I'm not sure if aygart is agreeing to me or not but certainly what I am saying is pashut and I assume you guys agree but are just bothered by the implication that maybe it's coming from an avoidance mentality

If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly

It was Nancy Reagans "Just Say No" campaign. Amd for those of us who lived through that the whole thing was laughable even at the time. Just find some of those commercials. They were hilarious. And candy box tops used to say "Just Say No". Cuz that was gonna stop the cocaine superhighway of the 80s.

I am not advocating not raising awareness and I would say yes scream from the rooftops just check with experts what to scream from the rooftops. Don't just come.out of yeshiva open an organization and start yelling whatever pops into your head as being right from the rooftops. That's all. I'm not sure if aygart is agreeing to me or not but certainly what I am saying is pashut and I assume you guys agree but are just bothered by the implication that maybe it's coming from an avoidance mentality

I am not disagreeing. Maybe scream maybe don't as long as you do it properly.

And one for people who are or know and deal with addicts and one for people who have no clue.

Unfortunately I have seen people deal with other issues and consider themselves experts while really being harmful and having less of a clue than someone who spent a little time on Google. All I did was say that care must be taken due to something real which I came across. A simple we do or will take it into account or am I will look into it would have ended everything. Instead I was attacked. That is how a pro would react not to be so defensive.

Of course the element of privacy. You also have the stigma. So shuls are not conducive because Jews cant keep from being yentas. But if you have those that will not go to a church...

You gotta read my question in the context of the discussion.

I read your point as part of the discussion which I why wrote what I did. Your idea is to show the entire world that we have addicts, so in that context, complaining that no shuls hold meetings -despite the fact that various Jewish community centers and organizations hold meetings- is another way to achieve your goal.

I read your point as part of the discussion which I why wrote what I did. Your idea is to show the entire world that we have addicts, so in that context, complaining that no shuls hold meetings -despite the fact that various Jewish community centers and organizations hold meetings- is another way to achieve your goal.

No thats not the intent. We just need to take away one of the most common excuses for not going to meetings. Not to show the world anything.

Someone involved in the field told me that he was counseling a public figure in dealing with am addiction, and the person wanted to find a 12 step group where he would not be recognized. He drove some distance to a program in the basement of a church, and when he walked in, another frum person was sitting there...

Also, if the program is happening in the social hall or basement of a church, and is sticking to the program, there is certainly no problem in going (although an addict will use any excuse). But some churches have programs that are explicitly Christian but loosely based on the 12 steps, and that is Assur. In other words, not all "12 step programs" are really doing only the 12 steps.

As seen in this article (http://halachayomit.co.il/en/ReadHalacha.aspx?halachaid=2367), it is not so simple. I'm sure there are better, more thorough articles, but the point stands. That it's not so simple to even walk into a church, so instead of paskening for others, AYLOR or find any of the Jewish meetings.

As seen in this article (http://halachayomit.co.il/en/ReadHalacha.aspx?halachaid=2367), it is not so simple. I'm sure there are better, more thorough articles, but the point stands. That it's not so simple to even walk into a church, so instead of paskening for others, AYLOR or find any of the Jewish meetings.

I didnt bother reading that. IMHO its pikuach nefesh. If going into an ancillary part of a church (not the sanctuary) is yaharog v'al yaavor then fine, drop dead instead, just dont take others with you.

I didnt bother reading that. IMHO its pikuach nefesh. If going into an ancillary part of a church (not the sanctuary) is yaharog v'al yaavor then fine, drop dead instead, just dont take others with you.

I'm not arguing if it is or isn't pikuach nefesh. In the article one rov wouldn't walk into a church even in a pikuach nefesh situation.Either way, most of the time there is a kosher option but if there isn't you should ask a rav.

I'm not arguing if it is or isn't pikuach nefesh. In the article one rov wouldn't walk into a church even in a pikuach nefesh situation.Either way, most of the time there is a kosher option but if there isn't you should ask a rav.

This thread makes it like it's not even a question.

If you need a rov, Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski has said it many times. Yesh al me lismoch.

As seen in this article (http://halachayomit.co.il/en/ReadHalacha.aspx?halachaid=2367), it is not so simple. I'm sure there are better, more thorough articles, but the point stands. That it's not so simple to even walk into a church, so instead of paskening for others, AYLOR or find any of the Jewish meetings.

I asked when I needed to attend for school. The response made it sound pashut

I asked when I needed to attend for school. The response made it sound pashut

pashut in what way?

I wonder if every frum student that attends Fordham or St. Johns or any other christian school asks whether they can attend classes. Like I've said upthread, if one is looking for excuses, they are readily available.

The point of what I've been saying is that you just cant have it both ways: Not going to meetings in churches because of "frumkeit" and not having meetings in "kosher" locations because of "privacy issues".

I wonder if every frum student that attends Fordham or St. Johns or any other christian school asks whether they can attend classes. Like I've said upthread, if one is looking for excuses, they are readily available.

The point of what I've been saying is that you just cant have it both ways: Not going to meetings in churches because of "frumkeit" and not having meetings in "kosher" locations because of "privacy issues".

Fordham was a big tumult back in the 60s with some saying it was assur.

It's not a big deal. If you or a family member need to go to a meeting, ask a competent rov!

(most community rabbonim are very aware of these issues and shailos, and should be able to offer a quick simple response. Beware of a asking someone inexperienced who doesnt know what addiction is etc. They may not be in a position to provide a reliable response.)

It's not a big deal. If you or a family member need to go to a meeting, ask a competent rov!

(most community rabbonim are very aware of these issues and shailos, and should be able to offer a quick simple response. Beware of a asking someone inexperienced who doesnt know what addiction is etc. They may not be in a position to provide a reliable response.)

It's not a big deal. If you or a family member need to go to a meeting, ask a competent rov!

(most community rabbonim are very aware of these issues and shailos, and should be able to offer a quick simple response. Beware of a asking someone inexperienced who doesnt know what addiction is etc. They may not be in a position to provide a reliable response.)

+1Exactly what has been said all along. Any complicated answer is a sign of inexperience.

@aygart. I'm trying to be dun lekaf zechus on you but I'm having a really hard time, so I'm going to simply ask you.

Do you know of someone that was adversly affected by any publicity surrounding the drugs issue?

Here we go again. If you feel it takes being dun lkaf zchus to simply say that real professionals need to be involved in any publicity of the issue to ensure it is not yatza schrara bihefseida then I think we need to work on ways to be dun you lkaf zchus. I am still baffled why this is even controversial.

Here we go again. If you feel it takes being dun lkaf zchus to simply say that real professionals need to be involved in any publicity of the issue to ensure it is not yatza schrara bihefseida then I think we need to work on ways to be dun you lkaf zchus. I am still baffled why this is even controversial.

Many others who would answer the same and they are left unchallenged because they claim to be"daas torah". (FTFY)

I make no claim of being anywhere close to fully knowledgeable on the subject and I am fully satisfied with this that CBC says how the publicity and event in Lakewood was well thought out and planned in conjunction with professionals. Why is this even controversial?

The way I'm taking it is "without rabbinical input as to who is an acceptable "professional"". Do you mean it otherwise?

No I do not mean it that way at all. I mean someone who is trained properly in how to deal with addiction and understands the many factors involved based on real statistics and the knowledge and experience to interpret them.

Guys, I've argued with aygart (left it lowercase for you) plenty. Frankly, you guys are being ridiculously unfair and assigning positions and opinions to him which he has never laid claim to. Stop "reading into" his comments, and just read them.

He has posted his desire for experts in the field to be the ones coordinating and directing campaigns, and never once intimated that Rabbinic authority be consulted over medical and psychological experts.

Guys, I've argued with aygart (left it lowercase for you) plenty. Frankly, you guys are being ridiculously unfair and assigning positions and opinions to him which he has never laid claim to. Stop "reading into" his comments, and just read them.

He has posted his desire for experts in the field to be the ones coordinating and directing campaigns, and never once intimated that Rabbinic authority be consulted over medical and psychological experts.

Since youre his lawyer, what does he mean when he says "in conjunction with professionals"? What is being "intimated" then? Its exactly what is being suggested. The rabbinic authority has final say on what is presented over and above any medical or psychological authority

Since youre his lawyer, what does he mean when he says "in conjunction with professionals"? What is being "intimated" then? Its exactly what is being suggested. The rabbinic authority has final say on what is presented over and above any medical or psychological authority

What in the world are you talking about! Now I understand the whole conversation from before. You are twisting my words terribly. If you take everything people say and twist it like you did with mine you will never be able to accept any suggestions that anyone makes and will accomplish little. Why do you feel a need to create a straw man?

There will always need to be askanim involved to arrange many of the practicalities. It will be a good idea to have some rabbonim to work with them too but they need to be ones smart enough to realize that the professionals are the ones who really know how to deal with it and they would only give some halachic and hashkafic guidance. Why is this so complicated? Why are you insisting on putting words in my mouth?

Since youre his lawyer, what does he mean when he says "in conjunction with professionals"? What is being "intimated" then? Its exactly what is being suggested. The rabbinic authority has final say on what is presented over and above any medical or psychological authority

His claim repeatedly has been, "hey anonymous internet people, well-intentioned as we all might be, there can be unintended consequences when dealing with issues as serious as drug addiction. No matter how much we, communal & rabbinic leaders want to help, any campaign or project must be done in conjunction with professionals in the field so as to ensure they are actually helping and not making things worse."

If the professional must rely on the rabbinic for hashkafa and halacha then it is rabbinic in conjunction with professional. If it the other way around then the professional is dealing with it. Otherwise, the rabbi has final say on content and you temper the message. No one is twisting anyones words.

Answer the question, who has final say on the message and means of conveying such message, rabbi or professional?

His claim repeatedly has been, "hey anonymous internet people, well-intentioned as we all might be, there can be unintended consequences when dealing with issues as serious as drug addiction. No matter how much we, communal & rabbinic leaders want to help, any campaign or project must be done in conjunction with professionals in the field so as to ensure they are actually helping and not making things worse."

If the professional must rely on the rabbinic for hashkafa and halacha then it is rabbinic in conjunction with professional. If it the other way around then the professional is dealing with it. Otherwise, the rabbi has final say on content and you temper the message. No one is twisting anyones words.

Answer the question, who has final say on the message and means of conveying such message, rabbi or professional?

If the professional must rely on the rabbinic for hashkafa and halacha then it is rabbinic in conjunction with professional. If it the other way around then the professional is dealing with it. Otherwise, the rabbi has final say on content and you temper the message. No one is twisting anyones words.

Answer the question, who has final say on the message and means of conveying such message, rabbi or professional?

Sorry, just joining the party, but is there anyone here who argues with the notion that Rabbonim and mental health professionals BOTH have important insight to add to this topic? Professionals need to consult with Rabbonim in these matters AND Rabbonim need to consult with professionals in these matters.

Sorry, just joining the party, but is there anyone here who argues with the notion that Rabbonim and mental health professionals BOTH have important insight to add to this topic? Professionals need to consult with Rabbonim in these matters AND Rabbonim need to consult with professionals in these matters.

What are said non-existent unintended consequences? And whose abilities to help are being clouded by them?

Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.

See? It's not so difficult to throw out a sharp worded comment in the midst of an argument. The thing is, those lines are usually low on substance, no matter how good they make you feel.

Aygart provided sources from experts who are the very least as qualified as the ones you purport he wants to have overridden by rabbinical authority, if not more so. The stupidity of this argument is that you and and he are in strong agreement, but you have such a strong anger to the community's response to this issue (judging by your comments, it is likely justified, based on prior experience) that you automatically assigned contradictory opinions and viewpoints he never stated.

Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.

I said no such thing and have repeatedly tried to no avail to correct your twisted misinterpretation of my words. A professional will know on their own to do it carefully and not with wanton abandon yelling from the rooftops. That is a part of what makes them into a professional-that they know what they should do and what they shouldn't do. It is the non-professionals and self-proclaimed "professionals" I am concerned about. Unfortunately, your reaction of twisting my words and creating straw men is only strengthening this concern.

See? It's not so difficult to throw out a sharp worded comment in the midst of an argument. The thing is, those lines are usually low on substance, no matter how good they make you feel.

Aygart provided sources from experts who are the very least as qualified as the ones you purport he wants to have overridden by rabbinical authority, if not more so. The stupidity of this argument is that you and and he are in strong agreement, but you have such a strong anger to the community's response to this issue (judging by your comments, it is likely justified, based on prior experience) that you automatically assigned contradictory opinions and viewpoints he never stated.

Peace out.

Thank you for basing your opinion on what I wrote and not some hallucination of what I am trying to say.

Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.

Perhaps there may be some merit to that argument, but then it can be argued that education about any kind of danger or negative thing may promote it, so never educate...

It's a fine line. I am in the mental health field, and I actually saw a case where a teenage Orthodox girl who was going through a tough time began cutting after being exposed to (read: educated about) the concept of self-injury on a forum online. Until then, she had never thought of it, and certainly never considered doing it. Education is essential, but we do need to be careful about who we educate, why we are educating them, and in what way we do it.

Treating drug addiction should be done under a professionals supervision. Making the community aware of the problem can be done by anyone who has a very good understanding of the problem and how to deal with it.

That was his response to whether he knows anyone who has been harmed by unintended consequences. Yet he still relies on some google researched farcical research instead of real life experience that contradicts that "study".

So yes, I'm possed off at the community for sweeping it under the rug and continually saying that they are dealing with the issue when in fact they are not. There are individuals of late who have taken it to the community the way it has to be taken. I agree that the most recent events in Lakewood were very productive.

I do not agree though that our community needs to be sheltered from education due to potential unintended consequences. That to me smacks of parochialism and chumrah-based thinking.

Perhaps there may be some merit to that argument, but then it can be argued that education about any kind of danger or negative thing may promote it, so never educate...

It's a fine line. I am in the mental health field, and I actually saw a case where a teenage Orthodox girl who was going through a tough time began cutting after being exposed to (read: educated about) the concept of self-injury on a forum online. Until then, she had never thought of it, and certainly never considered doing it. Education is essential, but we do need to be careful about who we educate, why we are educating them, and in what way we do it.

Drugs are dangerous. Many teens your age are doing drugs. Over the last year xx amount have died from unintended overdoses of drugs. These teens cannot stop taking drugs because they are addicted. They need more and more until it gets out of hand. If you know or suspect thatbone of yoir friends are on drugs or at risk of doing drugs please let an adult know. There will be no consequences to you and you may save a life.

The above is something i never heard growing up in yeshiva and i doubt that those lines are spoken in yeshiva today. What is the downside of saying that? They may be too temimusdik that saying the word drugs will lead them to try drugs. Maybe. Im willing to take that risk.

That was his response to whether he knows anyone who has been harmed by unintended consequences. Yet he still relies on some google researched farcical research instead of real life experience that contradicts that "study".

So yes, I'm possed off at the community for sweeping it under the rug and continually saying that they are dealing with the issue when in fact they are not. There are individuals of late who have taken it to the community the way it has to be taken. I agree that the most recent events in Lakewood were very productive.

I do not agree though that our community needs to be sheltered from education due to potential unintended consequences. That to me smacks of parochialism and chumrah-based thinking.

So you actually would prefer anonymous anecdotal evidence over peer reviewed science? And you are accusing others of irrationality?

-1The step before that is several huge doses of prevention. Starting young. That can/should also be done by professionals. Professionals can teach rabbis how it's done.

Prevention, Education, Positive Role Modeling, Connection, Awareness to the pre-cursors of the addictions, and who is at-risk = all.

(Whether genetically pre-dispositioned, or watching others, or being a victim of a past experience, or online viewing/experimenting.) Schools can address this prevention and education directly to students via professional whole-class confidential question and answer sessions.Students can send up questions anonymously. Very effective. Especially if an 'outsider'/professional is the only one in charge in the room.

Drugs are dangerous. Many teens your age are doing drugs. Over the last year xx amount have died from unintended overdoses of drugs. These teens cannot stop taking drugs because they are addicted. They need more and more until it gets out of hand. If you know or suspect thatbone of yoir friends are on drugs or at risk of doing drugs please let an adult know. There will be no consequences to you and you may save a life.

The above is something i never heard growing up in yeshiva and i doubt that those lines are spoken in yeshiva today. What is the downside of saying that? They may be too temimusdik that saying the word drugs will lead them to try drugs. Maybe. Im willing to take that risk.

The particular medium of education I was referring to (that the girl I mentioned used) was a forum intended to educate and help teens. In this case (and likely others), it backfired, as she was exposed to extensive threads detailing ideas she had never been exposed to, and the knowledge that others in her situation were doing this simultaneously desensitized her it it. What you wrote above sounds fine - I was just saying that not all "education" is appropriate or constructive, and MAY at times be inappropriate and destructive.

That was his response to whether he knows anyone who has been harmed by unintended consequences.

I am thankfully fortunate enough that there is no one who I know well enough to be privy to that information who suffered from addiction. I did not come across these studies via google rather they were used to bring out an unrelated point by a very highly credentialed mental health professional in a discussion about a totally unrelated topic. As beeweegee pointed out, these things do happen. There is no real good way to know if any individual case was somehow affected by the publicity since its effects according to their findings are subconscious. I never said that our community needs to be sheltered from education and would strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way. That does not mean that ALL publicity is good no matter how it is done.

I am thankfully fortunate enough that there is no one who I know well enough to be privy to that information who suffered from addiction. I did not come across these studies via google rather they were used to bring out an unrelated point by a very highly credentialed mental health professional in a discussion about a totally unrelated topic. As beeweegee pointed out, these things do happen. There is no real good way to know if any individual case was somehow affected by the publicity since its effects according to their findings are subconscious. I never said that our community needs to be sheltered from education and would strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way. That does not mean that ALL publicity is good no matter how it is done.

Drugs are dangerous. Over the last year xx amount have died from unintended overdoses of drugs. Some teens cannot stop taking drugs because they are addicted. They need more and more until it gets out of hand. If you know or suspect thatbone of yoir friends are on drugs or at risk of doing drugs please let an adult know.

Is this version with my tweaks a better way to teach it? I don't know, but those trained and familiar with real statistics should.

The particular medium of education I was referring to (that the girl I mentioned used) was a forum intended to educate and help teens. In this case (and likely others), it backfired, as she was exposed to extensive threads detailing ideas she had never been exposed to, and the knowledge that others in her situation were doing this simultaneously desensitized her it it. What you wrote above sounds fine - I was just saying that not all "education" is appropriate or constructive, and MAY at times be inappropriate and destructive.

I am thankfully fortunate enough that there is no one who I know well enough to be privy to that information who suffered from addiction. I did not come across these studies via google rather they were used to bring out an unrelated point by a very highly credentialed mental health professional in a discussion about a totally unrelated topic. As beeweegee pointed out, these things do happen. There is no real good way to know if any individual case was somehow affected by the publicity since its effects according to their findings are subconscious. I never said that our community needs to be sheltered from education and would strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way. That does not mean that ALL publicity is good no matter how it is done.

Yes these things happen, that is why "war stories" are discouraged in certain meetings because you just may teach someone a new way to do xxxxx.

Yes these things happen, that is why "war stories" are discouraged in certain meetings because you just may teach someone a new way to do xxxxx.

and should all the more so be a reason why any public message should be tweaked by trained professionals (I added trained so you shouldn't think "professionals" is a code for "non-professionals") to ensure that random people don't get taught a new way or get desensitized as beeweegee wrote. Is that something you disagree with?

-1The step before that is several huge doses of prevention. Starting young. That can/should also be done by professionals. Professionals can teach rabbis how it's done.

Prevention, Education, Positive Role Modeling, Connection, Awareness to the pre-cursors of the addictions, and who is at-risk = all.

(Whether genetically pre-dispositioned, or watching others, or being a victim of a past experience, or online viewing/experimenting.) Schools can address this prevention and education directly to students via professional whole-class confidential question and answer sessions.Students can send up questions anonymously. Very effective. Especially if an 'outsider'/professional is the only one in charge in the room.

If they are not even aware there is a problem how are you going to get them to do any of this?

If they are not even aware there is a problem how are you going to get them to do any of this?

they are aware. They must be aware -- those who are not aware must delegate to someone else. By 5777/2017, if they are clueless and blind, then others must step in for the sake of the future.

(I taught 10-yrs old over a decade ago, for several years. We learned to say "no" to anything like this or alcohol, and to reach out to adults if pressured, in pain, or alone. Even at that age, they can internalize it and bring out the facts and skills when they need it in their teen years.)

and should all the more so be a reason why any public message should be tweaked by trained professionals (I added trained so you shouldn't think "professionals" is a code for "non-professionals") to ensure that random people don't get taught a new way or get desensitized as beeweegee wrote. Is that something you disagree with?

Becausr that watered down message hasnt been working. Our community has been coddled and babied to death, literally.

You don't think that trained professionals can take that into account without watering down the message in a way that it would not be effective? Who do you think WOULD be best at getting out the message? Only recovered people?

I'm a recovering wife of an active addict. Never touched a drug in my life. Not even weed. I drink once in seven years. I'm still a ball of fun and can outdance all the stoners and alcoholics at any wedding. My biggest vice is some TV in the evenings.

I barely have 24 hours clean. Clean from the last time I meddled in my addicts life.

I've been working an Al-Anon program for 1.5 years now, but lately I've been slipping more and more. Last night was awful. We're a nice Jewish family. Struggling. Married with two kids. I thought I was well-adjusted way before I got married. Didn't need a man to complete me. Happy, in love, loving, not too clingy. So Tell me why my husband is an active addict? No idea. Tell me why his GP of 30 yrs prescribed Oxys to a father of two who had a drug problem twenty years ago? Only Gd knows. Why is my husband snorting in the bathroom? Where's the big-papa teddy bear that didn't know how to lie to save his life and now manipulates every sentence to cover a web of lies? Why are his eyes glossed over? Why is he dying and slipping away between my finger tips? Why do I wake up every night to the sound of pill boxes?

Did I enable him? Hell no. Not as soon as I realized he has an 'addictive personality'. Jews aren't addicts I thought. Not my husband anyway. Everyone drinks on the weekend, I thought.

"I'm too young for this shit and I'm too old for this shit." That's my motto sometimes. I'm too young to be a widow at 30, I'm too old to deal with a 35yr old regressing to his 17 yr old adolescent authority-hating self.

Do I fight the good fight to keep this family together, to keep him alive? Of course I do. I am Omnipotent, I can do anything, I am his Higher Power. Clearly a part of me still hasn't internalized that I'm not in control, that I can't cure him. And yet somehow I keep contributing. I keep trying to get him clean. To raise his bottom, to be his spiritual awakening. How do you think I'm doing, personally? Honest to god truth, any addict already knows what i look like, a broken sobbing mess, as I write this, because it reminds me to feel sorry for myself. Other days I'm a strong lionness, challenging my husband to step up to the plate, to be "a man". I'm just as insane as he is.

And I've reached my Zen zones. I know how to meditate, how to call my sponsor. I have seven Al-Anon associated literatures next to my bed. And I still don't understand the addict. I still am freaked the f out that he will overdose and die, leaving us behind. Our kids worship the ground he walks on. They're 5 & 3. They need their dad.

If there are addicts reading this, I know you like nothing less than a spouse's sob story. I hate weakness as well. I'm not usually a mess, I'm strong and I will hold on to this house like four archangels only can until he can get better, and to not let his disease and mine affect us. I asked him to leave today.

What's my point? That this man, last night, as I begged him to give me the pills before he goes for a bath, as petite little me fought him to keep the bathroom door open and trying to grab at his pill bag, I saw the look in his eyes. I mean, I know I look like a crazy person: the crying and yelling and sniffling. I know what I look like. But his look. It's so different now. He is so far gone. I remind him who he is at these moments, I call him by his full name. "You are Akiva Hillel son of Tzvi Aryeh. You are not defined by your addiction". But this time it just didn't reach him. He will do everything to protect his Higher Power - his pills. And I feel like it's a lost battle. But then I go to AA and NA forums and I see these ppl with their badass counting apps: 3 days clean, 5 months, 30 yrs, telling their story, and I tell myself to just do what I gotta do and get out of the way so Gd and my addict can dance their dance. It gives me compassion to hear other addicts, it reminds me he is owed respect and dignity to make his own mistakes. It reminds me I'm not at fault but I'm also not responsible to make him or keep him clean.

There is hope for those living with or who know of active addicts. Look up Al-Anon or Nar-Anon groups. Find ways to save yourself and the rest of the family while Gd handles the addict. He's the only One who can.

"We admitted we were powerless over the addict, that our lives had become unmanageable." - Step 1 of the 12 Steps. :'(

Becausr that watered down message hasnt been working. Our community has been coddled and babied to death, literally.

I think the prevalence of sweeping issues under the rug and not addressing issues at all is the reason why our "watered down message" hasn't been working. It's because it has been almost non-existent for a long time. The message (or lack thereof) has not been supported by professionals in the field. I think that the fact that there seems to be current interest/openness on the part of the community/Rabbanim to more open discussion in these areas is very encouraging. That doesn't mean that this new openness to communal education doesn't need to be done appropriately.

I think the prevalence of sweeping issues under the rug and not addressing issues at all is the reason why our "watered down message" hasn't been working. It's because it has been almost non-existent for a long time. The message (or lack thereof) has not been supported by professionals in the field. I think that the fact that there seems to be current interest/openness on the part of the community/Rabbanim to more open discussion in these areas is very encouraging. That doesn't mean that this new openness to communal education doesn't need to be done appropriately.

You are stating my point much better than I would have. If there is an issue which affects 20% of kids does that mean we should publicize it without regard to trained rpofessionals and stick our heads in the sand about them saying that this may cause the issue to affect 30% because a may wter down the message? Some things need to be watered down appropriately while if it is watered down too much it will be ineffective. The trained professional is the one who will know that balance.

You are stating my point much better than I would have. If there is an issue which affects 20% of kids does that mean we should publicize it without regard to trained rpofessionals and stick our heads in the sand about them saying that this may cause the issue to affect 30% because a may wter down the message? Some things need to be watered down appropriately while if it is watered down too much it will be ineffective. The trained professional is the one who will know that balance.

Agree with both of you on this. However, the vetting process of professionals who are allowed to mold that message is whats broken as well.

Depends on the demographic and particular grade/age. Recent numbers aren't quite 20%, but certainly far higher than the above-mentioned .001%. If I recall correctly, 12th graders were around 5 or 6% for daily marijuana use, and less for other drugs. As an aside, it's interesting that recent studies have found a decline in high school drug use, but also a decline in the perceived risk of harm.

Depends on the demographic and particular grade/age. Recent numbers aren't quite 20%, but certainly far higher than the above-mentioned .001%. If I recall correctly, 12th graders were around 5 or 6% for daily marijuana use, and less for other drugs. As an aside, it's interesting that recent studies have found a decline in high school drug use, but also a decline in the perceived risk of harm.

the problem is not the drug addiction per se the problem that these kids are not doing anything in yeshiva and they are not feeling like they are doing anything with their life and thats why they turn to drugs everyone is making like it's a mental illness which we don't want to confront that is missing the boat with the underlying issue here

Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.

I think you being personally involved in so many of these cases is clouding your judgment. And the way you are speaking during these arguments show that all to well.I am not taking sides here but argue coherently and stop sticking words into Aygarts mouth.

I think you being personally involved in so many of these cases is clouding your judgment. And the way you are speaking during these arguments show that all to well.I am not taking sides here but argue coherently and stop sticking words into Aygarts mouth.

Enough for it to be important to do something about hte problem? ABSOLUTELY even if it is much less than that.

כל המקיים נפש אחת מישראל....If we look at these kids as individuals and see what THEIR needs are and where their place in Klal Yisroel is and help them to go in their way חנוך לנער על פי דרכו and not to fit into a mold they don't fit into then they will be happy and fulfilled and not looking for other highs. If you speak to a lot of these kids you see that what is on their minds is just being who they are.

the problem is not the drug addiction per se the problem that these kids are not doing anything in yeshiva and they are not feeling like they are doing anything with their life and thats why they turn to drugs everyone is making like it's a mental illness which we don't want to confront that is missing the boat with the underlying issue here

that is why prevention and education is so important. Education is not just typical yeshiva learning. It's other hands-on, practical, life-saving education in other fields of assistance, invention, and helping/improving others.

the problem is not the drug addiction per se the problem that these kids are not doing anything in yeshiva and they are not feeling like they are doing anything with their life and thats why they turn to drugs everyone is making like it's a mental illness which we don't want to confront that is missing the boat with the underlying issue here

And the solution is finding a way for them to be productive. All is not lost, people are coming around even outside the forums. I was speaking to one of the menahalim of one of the biggest chedarim in the USA last week about this and he said how he is excited that he will be able to send to new Mesivtas that are "programs" for these boys as opposed to sending to a particular Mesivta run by someone in chinuch who "wants to say a shiur" to them.

That letter is eye-opening. If the husband was bringing ham into the bathroom to eat, then don't you think that the rabbis would work harder to put an end to it!?!

No I don't.Do you not know anyone who is mechalel Shabbbos in the bathroom? Were the Rabbi's able to stop him/her? Why does this have to be about the Rabbi's? No one, in close to 600 posts, has pointed to a Rabbi who said - don't educate, don't tell anyone, drugs isn't an issue. The closest you got was a possible Rabbinic opinion to not go into a church for a meeting if other meetings are available. And no one had a source for that either. The most you'll find is a Rabbi who is trying to protect the dignity of the family of an addict, because that is what said family wants. With huge respect and kudos to Mrs. maisel, not everyone wants to go public with their spouse's addiction, or even their child's heroin overdose. Are they not entitled to that privacy? Yes, it may result in unintended 'sweeping under the carpet'. But believe me, there are hundreds of 'Rabbi's' who lose more sleep individually than we all did collectively over this issue.

And as far as your ten year old students - you probably didn't help them, according to many recent studies, Education needs to be cutting edge, guided by skilled and well read professionals, and yes, supported by Rabbinic Authorities.https://thinkprogress.org/the-disastrous-legacy-of-nancy-reagans-just-say-no-campaign-fd24570bf109#.fsbbvmoby (https://thinkprogress.org/the-disastrous-legacy-of-nancy-reagans-just-say-no-campaign-fd24570bf109#.fsbbvmoby)https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-just-say-no-doesnt-work/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-just-say-no-doesnt-work/)

But believe me, there are hundreds of 'Rabbi's' who lose more sleep individually than we all did collectively over this issue.

They only mainly lose sleep over it because they are not equipped to deal with it. Incidental experience alert: Rabbi tells wife of addict that they only have a shalom bayis problem and should work on that. Rebbetzin refers her to addiction specialist!

They only mainly lose sleep over it because they are not equipped to deal with it. Incidental experience alert: Rabbi tells wife of addict that they only have a shalom bayis problem and should work on that. Rebbetzin refers her to addiction specialist!

With all due respect to your experience in the field, that's baloney. I know first hand. As a simple example, at the recent Agudah Convention there was a closed door session with Mental Health professionals and very significant Rabbonim, who consult with them and refer patients to them on a multiple times a day basis. I have first hand knowledge of many, many such incidents.

With all due respect to your experience in the field, that's baloney. I know first hand. As a simple example, at the recent Agudah Convention there was a closed door session with Mental Health professionals and very significant Rabbonim, who consult with them and refer patients to them on a multiple times a day basis. I have first hand knowledge of many, many such incidents.

I agree with you in that aspect. Those rabbonim lose sleep over many klal issues. But your run of the mill shteeble rabbi is not equipped, at all. Again, incidental experience alert: Well educated YU graduate pulpit Rabbi had no clue his congregant was an addict when the behavior affected the Rabbi himself.

I agree with you in that aspect. Those rabbonim lose sleep over many klal issues. But your run of the mill shteeble rabbi is not equipped, at all. Again, incidental experience alert: Well educated YU graduate pulpit Rabbi had no clue his congregant was an addict when the behavior affected the Rabbi himself.

So we agree. We have to be careful of using a broad brush here. The end effect of that is all Rabbonim are discredited, all yeshivas are bad etc.

So we agree. We have to be careful of using a broad brush here. The end effect of that is all Rabbonim are discredited, all yeshivas are bad etc.

Chas V'Shalom. Sorry if that's how it came off. Most Rabbonim, if not all carry very weighty burdens. People struggling with mental health issues in their congregation is but one of those issues. But as far as addiction is concerned, like with therapists I have spoken to, if you are not trained to see the signs and symptoms, its very difficult to identify what you are looking at. After the fact its very obvious.

From Whatsapp: In the last week we lost 3 young souls to the war with drugs. A 30 year old girl from Flatbush. 22 year old boy from Monsey and a 22 year old girl from Boro Park. I know that people want to keep it quiet - I, Zvi Gluck, ask that we make noise. Lots of it. Maybe if we make more noise, people will get the help they need. Sadly, many people are looking for help, but can't afford it. And it isn't as popular to pay for someone's rehab as other worthy causes. Let's work together and change that. Let's break the stigma associated with addiction. Let's get people help. And let's stop talking about overdoses and start taking about how people are getting help.

Doesn't the existence of a stigma create a barrier for some from become addicts?

IMO no stigma in the world will stop someone from becoming an addict. One is either pre-disposed or not.

If youre saying, for instance, a frum yeshiva bochur wouldnt get involved in drugs because s'past nit. They get hooked on cigarettes clandestinely at first and then its out in the open. Same with any other addiction. At first its בצנעה...then its בפרהסיה.

IMO no stigma in the world will stop someone from becoming an addict. One is either pre-disposed or not.

If youre saying, for instance, a frum yeshiva bochur wouldnt get involved in drugs because s'past nit. They get hooked on cigarettes clandestinely at first and then its out in the open. Same with any other addiction. At first its בצנעה...then its בפרהסיה.

Is there science to back that up? It is either true or untrue not subject to opinions of the non CD kind. If true let's call back the psychologists since it is something medical not psychological.

You do not think that there are some who resist that next step due to the stigma?

Is there science to back that up? It is either true or untrue not subject to opinions of the non CD kind. If true let's call back the psychologists since it is something medical not psychological.

You do not think that there are some who resist that next step due to the stigma?

Plenty of people hold themselves back for various reasons including stigma. But no amount of self-control can stop an addict in the throes of their addiction.

One has to work on themselves to hold back from getting caught up. Many are able to. Many are not.

And since when is psychological mutually exclusive from medical. Your refusal to admit that there is a problem without scientific evidence when the boots on the ground are telling you all you need to know is indeed telling. Keep your head in the sand. Keep finding excuses why you wont believe this or that fact on the ground.

I hope that is tongue in cheek. If you're serious about that please say so clearly. I think that is the ultimate comment that leaves me speechless.

It is all a fine balance. If there are those who will be helped by removing the stigma then that is an argument to remove it. The issue is that as you agreed the stigma itself has a very positive side to it in that it prevents some from needing the help in the first place. If you remove the stigma it will help some who need it but also create more need for the help. This is all the logical conclusion of what you said.

It is all a fine balance. If there are those who will be helped by removing the stigma then that is an argument to remove it. The issue is that as you agreed the stigma itself has a very positive side to it in that it prevents some from needing the help in the first place. If you remove the stigma it will help some who need it but also create more need for the help. This is all the logical conclusion of what you said.

Does the stigma really help those that don't do it because they are afraid?

From Whatsapp: In the last week we lost 3 young souls to the war with drugs. A 30 year old girl from Flatbush. 22 year old boy from Monsey and a 22 year old girl from Boro Park. I know that people want to keep it quiet - I, Zvi Gluck, ask that we make noise. Lots of it. Maybe if we make more noise, people will get the help they need. Sadly, many people are looking for help, but can't afford it. And it isn't as popular to pay for someone's rehab as other worthy causes. Let's work together and change that. Let's break the stigma associated with addiction. Let's get people help. And let's stop talking about overdoses and start taking about how people are getting help.

Does the stigma really help those that don't do it because they are afraid?

I am not sure that afraid is the right word, but would the stigma against doing something hold you back even if you have a taava for it? Sometimes it will prevent it and sometimes the taava is too strong.

I am not sure that afraid is the right word, but would the stigma against doing something hold you back even if you have a taava for it? Sometimes it will prevent it and sometimes the taava is too strong.

Plenty of people hold themselves back for various reasons including stigma.

Then that means it is helpful for those plenty of people and by removing it you would be taking someone who was doing pretty okay and destroying their life by removing what was the barrier to their becoming addicted. That is pretty callous to throw them under the bus.

Your refusal to see that does not mean that anyone who does feels there is no problem as you keep on doing. That is something purely in your imagination. I have never sadi such a thing or even hinted to it no matter how many times you make straw man arguements like this one.

Your refusal to admit that there is a problem without scientific evidence when the boots on the ground are telling you all you need to know is indeed telling. Keep your head in the sand. Keep finding excuses why you wont believe this or that fact on the ground.

I feel the most callous thing to do is to refuse to see this logical conclusion of what you yourself have said.

It is all a fine balance. If there are those who will be helped by removing the stigma then that is an argument to remove it. The issue is that as you agreed the stigma itself has a very positive side to it in that it prevents some from needing the help in the first place. If you remove the stigma it will help some who need it but also create more need for the help. This is all the logical conclusion of what you said.

You argue as if there is still a debate to be had. When you have issues such as this the lowest commom denominator must be that the benefit of removing the stigma far outweighs any possible benefit you would have from keeping it. Thats not an emotional argument. Thats a rational well thought out and proven argument. You can keep thinking what you wish. The blood of those who refused to seek help because of the stigma is on your hands though.

Tell your story to the children of a mother who refused to go to rehab because she didn't want to ruin her kids chance at good shiduchim. She instead chose to die and have people have rachmunus on her yesomim. You can verify that one story...and continue to allpw the stigma to continue. Their blood is on the hands of those who perpetuate the stigma.

Your statement have proven that you have zero understanding of addiction. You think a silly thing like a stigma can stop someone who has started down the path towards addiction. The only one it helps, maybe, is the person who never starts.

You argue as if there is still a debate to be had. When you have issues such as this the lowest commom denominator must be that the benefit of removing the stigma far outweighs any possible benefit you would have from keeping it. Thats not an emotional argument. Thats a rational well thought out and proven argument. You can keep thinking what you wish. The blood of those who refused to seek help because of the stigma is on your hands though.

Tell your story to the children of a mother who refused to go to rehab because she didn't want to ruin her kids chance at good shiduchim. She instead chose to die and have people have rachmunus on her yesomim. You can verify that one story...and continue to allpw the stigma to continue. Their blood is on the hands of those who perpetuate the stigma.

Yet you continue to make only emotional arguments without presenting ANY rationale or proof. If the blood of those who did not seek help is on my hands for saying there should be a balance, the blood of those who became addicted due to removal of stigma will be on yours. That is very mean of you to not care at all about more people becoming addicted. Imagine how many lives can be ruined by that.

Yet you continue to make only emotional arguments without presenting ANY rationale or proof. If the blood of those who did not seek help is on my hands for saying there should be a balance, the blood of those who became addicted due to removal of stigma will be on yours. That is very mean of you to not care at all about more people becoming addicted. Imagine how many lives can be ruined by that.

How many lives can be ruined by removing a stigma to seek help when someone is addicted? Are you listening to yourself.

You are correct. We should ostracize all who seek help and atigamtize them and their families. They should all be forced to move to an Ir Miklat and be banned from our communities. I agree totally. You have convinced me.

Youre probably the head of the Vaad le'mishmeres tohar hamachne, right?

Your statement have proven that you have zero understanding of addiction. You think a silly thing like a stigma can stop someone who has started down the path towards addiction. The only one it helps, maybe, is the person who never starts.

And that person who never starts because of the stigma is not worthy of our consideration?

Your statement have proven that you have zero understanding of addiction. You think a silly thing like a stigma can stop someone who has started down the path towards addiction. The only one it helps, maybe, is the person who never starts.

That is very true that it will help only the person who never starts. Halevai it should work to prevent anyone from starting. Do you really think that there are no people who overcame their taava to start by their being a stigma? That is why keeping a balance is so important unless the purpose is to keep the rehab centers busy. We are much better off with fewer people starting.

How many lives can be ruined by removing a stigma to seek help when someone is addicted? Are you listening to yourself.

All of those for whom the stigma helped them overcome an urge to start down that path. Do you have numbers for that? Or do you mean a stigma against seeking help? I think the real stigma is against the addiction itself and that people refusing to seek help is coming from that. The answer to that may be to have people understand that there is a much worse stigma to remaining addicted than there is to getting help. I do not know the answer to that. It is part of the need balance.

How many lives can be ruined by removing a stigma to seek help when someone is addicted? Are you listening to yourself.

The stigma to seek help is an unfortunate byproduct of the stigma of abusing substances. In an ideal world, the stigma of abusing substances would remain in full force, and it would be clear to everyone that despite that stigma, the cost of avoiding help is worse than what people will think.

All of those for whom the stigma helped them overcome an urge to start down that path. Do you have numbers for that?

You cant prove that numerically. And because you cant quantify it youre making it bigger than it really is. The hallmark of an addict is that they rarely if ever anticipate the consequences of their actions.

You cant prove that numerically. And because you cant quantify it youre making it bigger than it really is. The hallmark of an addict is that they rarely if ever anticipate the consequences of their actions.

Because they can't be quantified they are not worthy of our consideration?

The stigma to seek help is an unfortunate byproduct of the stigma of abusing substances. In an ideal world, the stigma of abusing substances would remain in full force, and it would be clear to everyone that despite that stigma, the cost of avoiding help is worse than what people will think.

So do you stop bochrim at weddings, even if theyre over 21 from drinking to excess? Do you frown when you see a 15 year old smoking? Do you condone the balabus who thinks its cool to smoke his e-cig at the chasunah reception. No. Of course you dont. Because you dont recognize the addictive behavior until it has begun. So your talk of stigma before one begins is nonsene.

You cant prove that numerically. And because you cant quantify it youre making it bigger than it really is. The hallmark of an addict is that they rarely if ever anticipate the consequences of their actions.

Am I? If it can't be quantified then maybe even I am not making it big enough? If your arguement is so rational and proven like you say then you should be able to offer SOME rationale and proof instead of telling me I have blood on my hands. That sounds like the Dem argument obout Obamacare, not a well reasoned proof.

So do you stop bochrim at weddings, even if theyre over 21 from drinking to excess?

If I could I would. As it happens I am not at that many weddings where it happens even though I know that it does. How should someone stop it if it is happening. If it were a wedding where I had the authority to do so I would remove the liquor.

Am I? If it can't be quantified then maybe even I am not making it big enough? If your arguement is so rational and proven like you say then you should be able to offer SOME rationale and proof instead of telling me I have blood on my hands. That sounds like the Dem argument obout Obamacare, not a well reasoned proof.

You cannot quantify the number of people who have not started a behavior because of a stigma. Now I'm unclear what stigma you are talking about. The stigma that getting help causes your family "name" to be sullied is what is being discussed. Stigma as a prevention is basically throwing your kid out when he or she is OTD. So what exactly are you advocating?

You cannot quantify the number of people who have not started a behavior because of a stigma. Now I'm unclear what stigma you are talking about. The stigma that getting help causes your family "name" to be sullied is what is being discussed. Stigma as a prevention is basically throwing your kid out when he or she is OTD. So what exactly are you advocating?

Is it the going for help that has a stigma or the fact that they are an addict and need the help?

If I could I would. As it happens I am not at that many weddings where it happens even though I know that it does. How should someone stop it if it is happening.

Stigmatize that family, the rav hamachshir, the caterer, the hall. Take away the bottle theyre hiding in the coatroom. Demand that the bar close and not serve anyone who appears intoxicated. There is plenty you can do. You stand by an wring your hands saying "what should I do?"

Here is a recent reoccurring and typical scenario: Parents of daughter at HIGH risk of serious drug addiction (i.E.. emotional issues, rebellious, no family or school support, basically living on streets, zero self esteem etc etc etc) will not allow her the help she needs because it involves a "goyisheh program"...

אין בית אשר אין שם מת. So having an addict is one stigma. Seeking help is another.

I would think that is only fear that people will know about the addiction problem. This would mean it is the fear of the stigma of having been an addict which is preventing these people from seeking the needed help. The strategy for that may be to remove the stigma of being a recovered addict and not

Here is a recent reoccurring and typical scenario: Parents of daughter at HIGH risk of serious drug addiction (i.E.. emotional issues, rebellious, no family or school support, basically living on streets, zero self esteem etc etc etc) will not allow her the help she needs because it involves a "goyisheh program"...

Yes, if cv she succumbs, it will be the "stigma" to blame.

That to would be the stigma of getting help for emotional issues etc not

Once again you seem to think emotional issues and addiction and medical causes behind emotional issues are all separate issues.

Please explain. I know of so many people who have family members getting help for various emotional and psychological disorders that I do not see there being a major stigma about that in Lakewood. Of course other communities may not be like this.

Most if not all addicts suffer from some form of emotional illness whether its self esteem issues, abuse, neglect, mental illness etc. The addiction is a coping mechanism to numb the pain. There are medical issues as well that can lead to the emotional issues i.e. chemical imbalances in the brain. So what exactly are you stigmatizing?

Huh? it's the stigma associated with a kid at risk.It's denial as to the very real mortal danger that their child is in.

Same stigma

Denial and stigma are not the same thing. Denial can and does happen even where there is no stigma at all. Stigma can be a cause of denial. That does not mean that denial must be caused by stigma. The denial that a parent has if a child is c"v at risk is often guilt and denial of their own failings whether real or imagined. Even if it is not due to anything the parent did wrong which may often be the case they will still feel that guilt.

From Whatsapp: In the last week we lost 3 young souls to the war with drugs. A 30 year old girl from Flatbush. 22 year old boy from Monsey and a 22 year old girl from Boro Park. I know that people want to keep it quiet - I, Zvi Gluck, ask that we make noise. Lots of it. Maybe if we make more noise, people will get the help they need. Sadly, many people are looking for help, but can't afford it. And it isn't as popular to pay for someone's rehab as other worthy causes. Let's work together and change that. Let's break the stigma associated with addiction. Let's get people help. And let's stop talking about overdoses and start taking about how people are getting help.

Israeli sites are pushing this with names and pictures! Does that help the cause?

Denial and stigma are not the same thing. Denial can and does happen even where there is no stigma at all. Stigma can be a cause of denial. That does not mean that denial must be caused by stigma. The denial that a parent has if a child is c"v at risk is often guilt and denial of their own failings whether real or imagined. Even if it is not due to anything the parent did wrong which may often be the case they will still feel that guilt.

So then why bring stigma into this conversation? Whats being pushed is Publicizing that there is a real issue in our community and we need to stop being in denial. As you said, it doesn't necessarily remove the stigma.

So then why bring stigma into this conversation? Whats being pushed is Publicizing that there is a real issue in our community and we need to stop being in denial. As you said, it doesn't necessarily remove the stigma.

Maybe that is what is being "pushed' by you but not others who want to remove the stigma.

So then why bring stigma into this conversation? Whats being pushed is Publicizing that there is a real issue in our community and we need to stop being in denial. As you said, it doesn't necessarily remove the stigma.

When there is a הקפדה on going to 12 step programs because theyre "goyish" or held in church halls. Or when people look down on participants in such programs instead of recognizing that those people are יחידי סגולה,we have a stigma that is a problem.

When there is a הקפדה on going to 12 step programs because theyre "goyish" or held in church halls. Or when people look down on participants in such programs instead of recognizing that those people are יחידי סגולה,we have a stigma that is a problem.

thats first point is not a stigma, its either being clueless, or ill-advised.

When there is a הקפדה on going to 12 step programs because theyre "goyish" or held in church halls. Or when people look down on participants in such programs instead of recognizing that those people are יחידי סגולה,we have a stigma that is a problem.

...and here we go. 12 step programs are not avodah zara. Neither do they require belief in another religion. Where the meetings are held, even if there is avodah zara present, wouldnt come to the level of yehoraig. Stop perpetuating this myth. It doesnt serve anyone.

Alcoholics Anonymous is famously difficult to study. By necessity, it keeps no records of who attends meetings; members come and go and are, of course, anonymous. No conclusive data exist on how well it works. In 2006, the Cochrane Collaboration, a health-care research group, reviewed studies going back to the 1960s and found that “no experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or [12-step] approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems.”

Nuance is not your strong suit. Huge difference from What i said to what you said.

The personal attack did not enhance your argument. Many try AA and drop out, often after a lapse. AA did not work for them. Is it because they stopped going to meetings? How many times must they go back before exploring other options?

Not arguing that it doesn't work for everyone, but the people it works for generally continue to go to meetings regularly for years and years after they become sober. And it does work for a lot of people, and saves their lives. It also makes their lives more meaningful and fulfilling, due to the spiritual angle, which, among other benefits, helps prevent relapse

The personal attack did not enhance your argument. Many try AA and drop out, often after a lapse. AA did not work for them. Is it because they stopped going to meetings? How many times must they go back before exploring other options?

Relapse = choice madeAnyone i know who stuck with any 12 step program and went back after a relapse was succesful. Rehab is a good jumpstart. Also, any relapse that occurs is because the person was not using the tools of the program by avoiding people places or things that can lead to such relapse.

Relapse = choice madeAnyone i know who stuck with any 12 step program and went back after a relapse was succesful. Rehab is a good jumpstart. Also, any relapse that occurs is because the person was not using the tools of the program by avoiding people places or things that can lead to such relapse.

Why is that more of a choice made than the original addiction?

According to your own theory that some people are predisposed to addiction, what percentage of those are also predisposed to being unable to commit to the 12 step program?

Nobody wakes up one day and says I want to be an addict today. But once you've found out that you have an issue it's on you to recover. אונס vs מזידAnd I don't understand what predisposition has anything to do with being able to commit.

Your last statement is almost correct...It works for those that work it. Most relapses from my experience come from complacency amd failing to rigorously stick to the program. In one of the fellowships it says that one recovers by bringing about a progressive character change. One does this by following the 12 steps and incorporating them in yoir daily life. Therr is no magic pill in 12 step programs or any other recovery option. Its a long road and it takes work that the weak-willed are often not willing to put in.

...and here we go. 12 step programs are not avodah zara. Neither do they require belief in another religion. Where the meetings are held, even if there is avodah zara present, wouldnt come to the level of yehoraig. Stop perpetuating this myth. It doesnt serve anyone.

I'm skeptical. You are sitting in a church, being given a religious message by Christians.

I'm skeptical. You are sitting in a church, being given a religious message by Christians.

ETA: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf

Go to an open meeting and stop basing your closed-minded views on what you read on the internet. Oh, i forgot, theyre all held in the church sanctuary with Jesus staring down at you in graven images and blood spattered artifacts.

Really, youre doing people who need help a real disservice by perpetuating this false belief. Maybe next time in in Boston ill take you to a non-church meeting right downtown.

You're saying that, but I'm not buying it wholesale. Are there any published teshuvos?

I believe you can call Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twersky and he can cite them to you chapter and verse. Search out his videos on YouTube. They would do you some good. Buy his book Addictive Thinking. Ill try and find some links to his youtube material.

And there are jewish sponsored AA groups and other Anonymois groups that have no religious message at all. In fact GA 12 steps mention G-d twice and they refer to G-d of ones own understanding.

I believe you can call Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twersky and he can cite them to you chapter and verse. Search out his videos on YouTube. They would do you some good. Buy his book Addictive Thinking. Ill try and find some links to his youtube material.

In it he quotes Bill W (one of the founders of AA) who rejected the idea that the 12 steps are connected to any religion, but explained that every person can understand amd apply them in the context of their beliefs.

In it he quotes Bill W (one of the founders of AA) who rejected the idea that the 12 steps are connected to any religion, but explained that every person can understand amd apply them in the context of their beliefs.

Your contention was...You've just been shown that your premise is wrong.

And just a note, your signature is offensive in the context of this thread.

I don't know how to remove my signature only for this thread.

My point is this:

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church. I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila. That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic.

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church. I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila. That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic.

By "Christian" do you mean it was founded by Christians? Because, as you pointed out there are no references to Jesus or Christ.

Together with the 12 Steps there are 12 Traditions which clearly set forth that there is no connection between AA and outside enterprises, including any organized religion.1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA unity.2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. 3. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.4. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.5. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole.6 Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.7. An AA group ought never endorse, finance or lend the AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.8. Every AA group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.9. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.10. AA, as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve11. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

Going into a church santuary for Pikuach nefesh does not need a psak. I distinctly recall a reform temple in Manhattan that was renting space in a church meeting hall for High Holiday services and there was a Hatzolah call during Kol Nidre at "St. Paul's Church". Heard it with my own ears. As Rabbi Dr. Twersky properly pointed out and I have stated up above, the dearth of Jewish facilities that are willing to host "Anonymous" meetings does not inherently mean that AA is Christian.

By church do you mean sanctuary or meeting hall?

Also, if you're familiar, are R' Yisrael Salanter's 13 Middos Jewish concepts? I mean, they were only misappropriated from a yiddish translation of Benjamin Franklin's writings. But heck its held out as Kodesh Kodoshim in the yeshiva world.

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church. I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila. That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic.

I do think that is a fair question and the idea of getting spiritual guidance from a CHristian in a church does seem strange. In that setting one can easily imagine some deviating from the exact script and focusing on Christian spirituality. On the other hand, these are cases where we should be looking very hard for leniencies. I can see Rabbonim preferring other rehab routes, but sometimes these types of programs have the easiest availability and, other than these issues, the lowest barriers to participation. It ends up becoming a complex shaila. I think I have some maare mekomos that I remember and will try to share if I find them.

The best way to deal with these questions will be to deal with them directly. They are legitimate questions even assuming that they do have answers. To ridicule people asking questions like this

Go to an open meeting and stop basing your closed-minded views on what you read on the internet. Oh, i forgot, theyre all held in the church sanctuary with Jesus staring down at you in graven images and blood spattered artifacts.

Really, youre doing people who need help a real disservice by perpetuating this false belief. Maybe next time in in Boston ill take you to a non-church meeting right downtown.

is the real disservice and will lead some to believe that maybe there isn't a real answer but only sarcasm and ridicule.

ETA: the later answers are dealing with this much better and more substantive.

I do think that is a fair question and the idea of getting spiritual guidance from a CHristian in a church does seem strange. In that setting one can easily imagine some deviating from the exact script and focusing on Christian spirituality. On the other hand, these are cases where we should be looking very hard for leniencies. I can see Rabbonim preferring other rehab routes, but sometimes these types of programs have the easiest availability and, other than these issues, the lowest barriers to participation. It ends up becoming a complex shaila. I think I have some maare mekomos that I remember and will try to share if I find them.

The best way to deal with these questions will be to deal with them directly. They are legitimate questions even assuming that they do have answers. To ridicule people asking questions like thisis the real disservice and will lead some to believe that maybe there isn't a real answer but only sarcasm and ridicule.

ETA: the later answers are dealing with this much better and more substantive.

Spiritual guidance offered at 12 step meetings are supposed to be devoid of religious affiliation. "The word spiritual can be said to describe those characteristics of the human mind that represent the highest and finest qualities such as kindness, generosity, honesty and humility." GA Combo Book

As far as rehab is concerned, I am not a believer that Rehab is the only solution. It is great to get someone into rehab which is a good jumpstart as it can offer an opportunity to detox/clean break and isolates them from everyday distractions that can lead them back to the addiction. However, in practicality, without continued treatment, whether it be 12 step programs, out-patient or in-patient mental health care, private psychotherapy and the like, the likelihood of recidivism/relapse is extremely high.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the failure to realize that this is Pikuach Nefesh. Chillul Shabbos D'Oraisa, as in any other Pikuach nefesh situation is warranted. How can you differentiate this from Hatzolah? I dont think there is a single rav who would tell you that going into a church for Pikuach nefesh is not allowed because Christianity is Yehoraig V'al Ya'avor. There is no requirement in any "A" program to believe in Christianity, even if its spoken of and takes place in a church. More so, when that in fact is not the case.

So again, I ask what is the issue?

Anyone that says that 12 step programs are the only solution is wrong. 12 step programs are the maintenance program that, coupled with therapy and other work that is required, will keep one abstinent and recovered.

There is no requirement in any "A" program to believe in Christianity, even if its spoken of and takes place in a church. More so, when that in fact is not the case.

So again, I ask what is the issue?

Once it is a spitual program being given by Christians in a church it will lead people to ask questions. The best way to address those question is to show them "look R Moshe said it is okay" and not to debate the specifics of whether i is or isn't a shailo.

Once it is a spitual program being given by Christians in a church it will lead people to ask questions. The best way to address those question is to show them "look R Moshe said it is okay" and not to debate the specifics of whether i is or isn't a shailo.

R' Moshe died in 1986. What was posted above was from 1993. So who, since 1993, would you suggest to be a good enough Posek for you to rule on this. Once again I ask, when the foremost authority on addiction (in and out of the Jewish Community), Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski, who has no skin in the game, and is a musmach says its allowed and required why do you need someone else?

I have heard from non-religious people in 12 step programs that the Rebbe (for those who need that authority) stated emphatically in the 1970's that frum people should go wherever they need to go to get help for their addictions. I do not have a source for that, yet.

R' Moshe died in 1986. What was posted above was from 1993. So who, since 1993, would you suggest to be a good enough Posek for you to rule on this. Once again I ask, when the foremost authority on addiction (in and out of the Jewish Community), Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski, who has no skin in the game, and is a musmach says its allowed and required why do you need someone else?

I have heard from non-religious people in 12 step programs that the Rebbe (for those who need that authority) stated emphatically in the 1970's that frum people should go wherever they need to go to get help for their addictions. I do not have a source for that, yet.

Poskim in the U.S. today? I would think this question should go to Dayan Roth for the chassidim, and to Rav Dovid Feinstein for the litvaks. In Canada, Rav Shlomo Miller.

Poskim in the U.S. today? I would think this question should go to Dayan Roth for the chassidim, and to Rav Dovid Feinstein for the litvaks. In Canada, Rav Shlomo Miller.

Can you please phrase rhe question that you would like to be asked. I will go into Dayan Roth with your exact question. I had Rav Reuven in my car not too long ago and we discussed going to meetings at length.

When Bobov and Satmar and Belz and, and, and...decide to allow space for 12 step programs in their facilities AND the stigma of going to such programs is removed (big AND) then you have alternatives. Until such time as you can do 90 in 90 without going to a church facility you have no alternative.

Poskim in the U.S. today? I would think this question should go to Dayan Roth for the chassidim, and to Rav Dovid Feinstein for the litvaks. In Canada, Rav Shlomo Miller.

Definitely along these lines. Rabbi Dr. Twerky may be the foremost authority on addiction but he is not considered a foremost authority on halacha. The question isn't convincing me. I BH do not have this issue and neither do any of my family members. Rabbi Dr. Twerski may have a long list of tshuvos from R Moshe, R Shlomo Zalman, R Elyashiv, R Wosner, the Titz Eliezer, etc which discuss this and are matir. Having that information available will be a much more effective argument since the vast majority would simply defer to their opinion.

Can you please phrase rhe question that you would like to be asked. I will go into Dayan Roth with your exact question. I had Rav Reuven in my car not too long ago and we discussed going to meetings at length.

Is it permitted for someone who is addicted to alcohol or narcotics to do the 12 step program with AA? Do you have any interest in publishing your decision so that people will be able to find it without having to ask the Rav, since they may be embarrassed?

Definitely along these lines. Rabbi Dr. Twerky may be the foremost authority on addiction but he is not considered a foremost authority on halacha. The question isn't convincing me. I BH do not have this issue and neither do any of my family members. Rabbi Dr. Twerski may have a long list of tshuvos from R Moshe, R Shlomo Zalman, R Elyashiv, R Wosner, the Titz Eliezer, etc which discuss this and are matir. Having that information available will be a much more effective argument since the vast majority would simply defer to their opinion.

At best this was a hidden issue which would never have generated a written psak in the lifetime of those you mention. You know of many such situations.

Is it permitted for someone who is addicted to alcohol or narcotics to do the 12 step program with AA? Do you have any interest in publishing your decision so that people will be able to find it without having to ask the Rav, since they may be embarrassed?

BL'N i will speak with his son or my neighbor who is on his bais din and try to get a written psak.

I now think I understand. When a goy writes God you automatically define it as his religion. Even when he qualifies it as "of your understanding". I think the fear is that Jews are not familiar with G-d and will be forced to actually face the fact that the abstracts which are taught in our yeshiva system today do not comport with the realities of life.

I now think I understand. When a goy writes God you automatically define it as his religion. Even when he qualifies it as "of your understanding". I think the fear is that Jews are not familiar with G-d and will be forced to actually face the fact that the abstracts which are taught in our yeshiva system today do not comport with the realities of life.

No you are missing the boat. This is not about qualms based on real knowledge of what happens or the importance of it. It is based on ignorance. You will not get anywhere by arguing over the nitty gritty of it since they are not knowledgeable enough to have a real discussion about it. That is why a tosafos won't get you anywhere either. A psak, especially in writing, from the well known poskim will be worth much more because they will defer to the authority. This is purely a tactical issue. Don't get involved in the argument at all.

I now think I understand. When a goy writes God you automatically define it as his religion. Even when he qualifies it as "of your understanding". I think the fear is that Jews are not familiar with G-d and will be forced to actually face the fact that the abstracts which are taught in our yeshiva system today do not comport with the realities of life.

Aygart said he wants to research, I posted a starting point of what I believe to be a pertinent sugiya.

In no way was I implying that there is anything wrong with going to 12 step in a church...

No you are missing the boat. This is not about qualms based on real knowledge of what happens or the importance of it. It is based on ignorance. You will not get anywhere by arguing over the nitty gritty of it since they are not knowledgeable enough to have a real discussion about it. That is why a tosafos won't get you anywhere either. A psak, especially in writing, from the well known poskim will be worth much more because they will defer to the authority. This is purely a tactical issue. Don't get involved in the argument at all.

When Bobov and Satmar and Belz and, and, and...decide to allow space for 12 step programs in their facilities AND the stigma of going to such programs is removed (big AND) then you have alternatives. Until such time as you can do 90 in 90 without going to a church facility you have no alternative.

Sorry for taking this a bit off topic, my oldest brother (at this point already a victim of this silent killer :() went a good few years ago to those programs and meetings, my family lives smack in the middle of chassidsha town and the entire neighborhood knew exactly what was going on with him (yea he made some noise on the street) (when the yankees lost a game) and my mother did not kick him out of the house, did not hide at all the fact that he was getting the help he needed and was pretty openly proud of him that he was able to keep sober for like 2 years

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church. I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila. That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic.

I've been to AA meetings for course requirements (yeah yeah u can skip the jokes already been made) in both church Meeting rooms and in regular business meetings. I consulted with a rebbe that I believe you are machsiv and if I recall it correctly it was a complete non issue to him. also don't think I heard the word God even once sometimes the references "a higher power whatever you perceive that as"

Sorry for taking this a bit off topic, my oldest brother (at this point already a victim of this silent killer :() went a good few years ago to those programs and meetings, my family lives smack in the middle of chassidsha town and the entire neighborhood knew exactly what was going on with him (yea he made some noise on the street) (when the yankees lost a game) and my mother did not kick him out of the house, did not hide at all the fact that he was getting the help he needed and was pretty openly proud of him that he was able to keep sober for like 2 years

Great that he got help but i guarantee there was a stigma attached to him

What about prison, NYU treatment (insanity), prison again (for selling prescribed drugs) and then found on yom tov death in some shelter apt. or whatever they call it! and that's after AA meetings, programs and therapy

What about prison, NYU treatment (insanity), prison again (for selling prescribed drugs) and then found on yom tov death in some shelter apt. or whatever they call it! and that's after AA meetings, programs and therapy

Is this death toll greater than that from cancer? Or do you mean because it is affecting younger people more?

Yes it is definitly greater amongst younger ppl in our communities. (Per my unscientific research). Yet we have a chai lifeline dinner this evening, and a bike run, and support for families, and rccs to help with medical costs etc ect.On the other hand...

Yes it is definitly greater amongst younger ppl in our communities. (Per my unscientific research). Yet we have a chai lifeline dinner this evening, and a bike run, and support for families, and rccs to help with medical costs etc ect.On the other hand...

Amudim is a start, but the funding to help these kids pale in comparison to that of chai lifeline etc.. Try getting funding to help a kid pay for much needed therapy or rehab, its extremely scarce and difficult.

Amudim is a start, but the funding to help these kids pale in comparison to that of chai lifeline etc.. Try getting funding to help a kid pay for much needed therapy or rehab, its extremely scarce and difficult.

As opppsed to those other organizations that can and do get funding, besides their fundraising.

Yes it is definitly greater amongst younger ppl in our communities. (Per my unscientific research). Yet we have a chai lifeline dinner this evening, and a bike run, and support for families, and rccs to help with medical costs etc ect.On the other hand...

To be fair, Chai lifeline deals with sick people of all ages and their entire families. RCCS also is dealing with a wide range of ages. There is

which BTW is making an event in the mountains in the near future. Also, as you have written earlier, Amudim weighs very carefully to find the right balance of publicity and awareness vs. avoiding issues which have been shown to arise from over-publicity. An event in Yankee Stadium may not be appropriate in this instance.

Is there more to be done, almost certainly, the question is exactly what since a proper balance is extremely important. I do not have the answer to that. I am happy that there are professional who know more than me who are making those decisions.

Here you go again...what issues? Can you please once and for all provide a list of such issues and known victims of such issues? We're all big boys and girls here. Can you please be clear and provide source material and case studies to back you up.

Here you go again...what issues? Can you please once and for all provide a list of such issues and known victims of such issues? We're all big boys and girls here. Can you please be clear and provide source material and case studies to back you up.

I am talking about in the world in general. The War on Drugs has been discussed many times by psychologists and many have shown that is publicity was its failure. In the other hand awareness is important. It is all a balance. These events seem to be a great start in building awareness but making something in Yankee stadium may not be appropriate here. Do you disagree with this?

Here you go again...what issues? Can you please once and for all provide a list of such issues and known victims of such issues? We're all big boys and girls here. Can you please be clear and provide source material and case studies to back you up.

I can't help but jump in. This argument is pointless. You both will go round and round in circles. I will say that @aygart has been nothing but fair. Although you are asking him for source material, and he has provided link to articles showing that his concerns exist and are real, you yourself have never provided any proof or backing to your viewpoints. What you have done is consistently put words in his mouth and made unfounded and serious accusations against him.

Your clearly have an emotional connection to this issue, and that is commendable. G-d bless you and all those who do their utmost to help their fellow man. But there's no need to endlessly beat up on aygart just because his entirely reasonable opinion differs slightly to yours.

I am talking about in the world in general. The War on Drugs has been discussed many times by psychologists and many have shown that is publicity was its failure. In the other hand awareness is important. It is all a balance. These events seem to be a great start in building awareness but making something in Yankee stadium may not be appropriate here. Do you disagree with this?

The War on Drugs was and remains a farce. I'm not one of those that stood outside the internet asifa and protested for sexual abuse awareness. No one has proposed an awareness event other than Amudim and they cant fill up Yankee Stadium. You say they're doing a good job with the balance, I agree. So why cant we get an Amudim awareness event into Yankee Stadium? Because THAT is too much publicity?

Your clearly have an emotional connection to this issue, and that is commendable. G-d bless you and all those who do their utmost to help their fellow man. But there's no need to endlessly beat up on aygart just because his entirely reasonable opinion differs slightly to yours.

As stated above I do and I believe so long as we say this has to be handled with kid gloves it will never get better. I apologize if he felt beat up. Thanks for your advocacy, I'm sure he can handle himself though.

No one has proposed an awareness event other than Amudim and they cant fill up Yankee Stadium. You say they're doing a good job with the balance, I agree. So why cant we get an Amudim awareness event into Yankee Stadium? Because THAT is too much publicity?

It might be and Amudim may feel that way as well. I am still not sure we even disagree at all. Even if we do it is not a very significant difference. "Handling with kid's gloves" is semantics and depends on what is meant by it. If it means thatthe issue needs to be confronted head on the it is true. If it means that we need to make events in Yanke Stadium then it may not be.

It might be and Amudim may feel that way as well. I am still not sure we even disagree at all. Even if we do it is not a very significant difference. "Handling with kid's gloves" is semantics and depends on what is meant by it. If it means thatthe issue needs to be confronted head on the it is true. If it means that we need to make events in Yanke Stadium then it may not be.

We dont disagree on the issue, only the method of addressing it. I say scream חי וקיים and you say shhhhhhh.

I dont know what to "do" but unlike cancer, this is a preventable disease. I mentioned a yom tefila (a prayer gathering, not a demonstration) because of the feeling of total hopelessness I felt about this situation when I was forwarded a picture of another sweet looking young boy, the latest victim... Raising money for the levaya...

The life of pain that these parent now have live is incomprehensible..

One thing is certain. We are not doing enough.. (and the reason is that many of the best and brightest askonim are afraid to be tarnished by the stigma. They won't touch it.. )

Remember when the Jewish observer put out the kids on the fringe edition? Caused massive awareness and change in the community... Something similar is definitely in order.

Have not as of yet. I'm willing to personally take anyones gehinnom if they go to a meeting in a church until i can produce a psak. Rav Elya Brudny is said to have a psak in hand. I'm waiting to get that one as well.

Kids get kicked out of schools all the time. It's not a big deal to the mosdos.

There is a massive difference between kicking a kid out because of his behavior and what appears to had have happens here.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 17, 2017, 12:22:28 AM

Rabbi YY Jacobson addresses the 'leadership' and addiction in this clip, portion at 28:00 minutes in, he says we have this year, alone 120 young women and men in the torah observant community.It goes untl 37:00 minutes. Well worth listening to for 9 minutes.

Link: http://bit.ly/RabbiJacobsonSchoolLeadershipAddictionIssue

people worshipping the system vs. the system is there to promote life, (not as traps to promote death, he says...)

There is a massive difference between kicking a kid out because of his behavior and what appears to had have happens here.

Here, Rabbi Jacobson said it was 3 things (eating in a pizza shop, buying a friend a $20 gift, and 'nivul peh', and that's why she was kicked out. They did not allow even one week to find another school. This affected her terribly.

Rabbi YY Jacobson addresses the 'leadership' and addiction in this clip, portion at 28:00 minutes in, he says we have this year, alone 120 young women and men in the torah observant community.It goes untl 37:00 minutes. Well worth listening to for 9 minutes.

Link: http://bit.ly/RabbiJacobsonSchoolLeadershipAddictionIssue

people worshipping the system vs. the system is there to promote life, (not as traps to promote death, he says...)Here, Rabbi Jacobson said it was 3 things (eating in a pizza shop, buying a friend a $20 gift, and 'nivul peh', and that's why she was kicked out. They did not allow even one week to find another school. This affected her terribly.

He tells a very different story than the above letter even though both are meant to be the perspective of the parents. One wonders it it's the same story.

The story portrayed in the above letter sounds crazy and hard to believe.

To the subject of kicking kids out of schools, my heart goes out to every parent going through hard times with their kids.

But there is a second side to this subject. Do you know a kid in your child's class or on your block that is educating your child with things that are unexcepted to you? Do you have a family that is having a bad influence on your child? How do you cope with it?

Schools have a very tough job to balance bad form very bad.They have a class of 30 kids with clean neshmos and one kid starts teaching them real bad things whats the fine line they can say we cant let 30 kids down to TRY saving this one struggling kid.

It is so hard to call but there is 2 sides to the burden laying on the school.

The story portrayed in the above letter sounds crazy and hard to believe.

To the subject of kicking kids out of schools, my heart goes out to every parent going through hard times with their kids.

But there is a second side to this subject. Do you know a kid in your child's class or on your block that is educating your child with things that are unexcepted to you? Do you have a family that is having a bad influence on your child? How do you cope with it?

Schools have a very tough job to balance bad form very bad.They have a class of 30 kids with clean neshmos and one kid starts teaching them real bad things whats the fine line they can say we cant let 30 kids down to TRY saving this one struggling kid.

It is so hard to call but there is 2 sides to the burden laying on the school.

moral equivalency... obviously schools have to be concerned about a bad influence but there are ways to handle it properly and ways to handle it improperly. I've seen (a rare) case of handling it properly and it doesn't look like these cases and when done properly the parents of the kicked out child will almost always understand and respect the schools decision

And the mesirah police are stopping us from reporting those tbat are responsible.

I was being kinda sarcastic. We as a community can't really get involved in the broader war on drugs.. (yes, terminating the frum drug pushers should definitely be done, but it won't necessarily save that many lives).

We do need to be made aware of the dangers of drug addiction though...

Eg. I'm sure one of the groisah roshei yeshiva who kicked out a boy a few weeks before the end of the year (for going to CVS!!) would have waited till the end of the year, preserve his dignity, and just maybe maybe saved his life... But he didn't. Assuming he didn't take the "dinay nefashos" thing literally.. wasn't aware..

He tells a very different story than the above letter even though both are meant to be the perspective of the parents. One wonders it it's the same story.

it's possible that the second story about "yaffa" was another part of the story. i.e. the first day of school when she tried to attend the next school after she was kicked out of the first one.

I agree 100% about the concern of the influence of other children that could seep in via classmates, however this case was not including foul language, negative attitude, or intentional bullying or rebelling.

I was being kinda sarcastic. We as a community can't really get involved in the broader war on drugs..........Eg. I'm sure one of the groisah roshei yeshiva who kicked out a boy a few weeks before the end of the year (for going to CVS!!) would have waited till the end of the year, preserve his dignity, and just maybe maybe saved his life... But he didn't. Assuming he didn't take the "dinay nefashos" thing literally.. wasn't aware..

if there was seriously an incident where a CVS visit was the reason for being kicked out, then there needs to be a policy of a 10-member elected board to make decisions on students expulsions rather than one single person making such a huge life-altering (or in this case, a life-or-death) decision.

if there was seriously an incident where a CVS visit was the reason for being kicked out, then there needs to be a policy of a 10-member elected board to make decisions on students expulsions rather than one single person making such a huge life-altering (or in this case, a life-or-death) decision.

i've been in chinuch for many years, and I truly hope that this is not the entire picture, as it seems that this was a turning point, and possibly his 'last straw'.

Even with 10 warnings, and even if he was meeting a girl there, and even if he was buying something, etc..... (all of which it seems is not the case), there would really need to be a clear meeting with parents, very straight forward understanding, and ideally waiting for a few more weeks until the end of school to do something so negative and so earth-shattering to a teenager...

i've been in chinuch for many years, and I truly hope that this is not the entire picture, as it seems that this was a turning point, and possibly his 'last straw'.

Even with 10 warnings, and even if he was meeting a girl there, and even if he was buying something, etc..... (all of which it seems is not the case), there would really need to be a clear meeting with parents, very straight forward understanding, and ideally waiting for a few more weeks until the end of school to do something so negative and so earth-shattering to a teenager...

yes. I am surprised that someone did not line up another educational alternative before making a life-or-death decision such as this. What rov would allow this risk? Rabbi Dr. Twerski has been speaking for decades, and now also Rabbi YY Jacobson, Rabbi Y Horowitz, etc..., and it's becoming more clear that lives are at stake. Perhaps real decision making and full board administrative policies can help to prevent 10+ deaths similar to these from occurring next school year.

yes. I am surprised that someone did not line up another educational alternative before making a life-or-death decision such as this. What rov would allow this risk? Rabbi Dr. Twerski has been speaking for decades, and now also Rabbi YY Jacobson, Rabbi Y Horowitz, etc..., and it's becoming more clear that lives are at stake. Perhaps real decision making and full board administrative policies can help to prevent 10+ deaths similar to these from occurring next school year.

I'm sad, but not remotely surprised. Par for the course. I'm sure they said he was "being mekalkel acheirim."

I'm sad, but not remotely surprised. Par for the course. I'm sure they said he was "being mekalkel acheirim."

we know that would NOT be Moshe Rabeinu's response, nor any other real leader, Rebbe, especially in cases of life-or-death. This is a chinuch lesson for the class, too.

As Rabbi Jacobson says in the clip:

"Instead of systems serving students, ...the students are serving the system."

"Dictatorship vs. morally free-based society."

Systems are important, ....but systems are here to enhance and give structure, and to enhance to our life, not to destroy our life. "Provides structure: Every day at 7:00, I go to the gym. "Okay, but today your child needs to go to the hospital." "I'm sorry, I follow systems. At 7:00 I go to the gym." "But your kid is not breathing; she needs to go to the hospital."

Rabbi Jacobson: "Systems are good when they promote life; not when they become traps that promote death."

Come on. You're pushing a piece in which Avi shafran is representative of all gedolim? And gedolim only get there because they have power? You know better then to engage in bizui talmedei chachomim. Yes, silence is an issue. No, that doesn't mean that there are no chashuva people in the world besides for Zvi Gluck.

The way he ended off ruined it all. He won't accomplish much with that attitude. The same way your cynicism to the people you don't agree with doesn't do much to endear you to others and help get a valid point across.

we know that would NOT be Moshe Rabeinu's response, nor any other real leader, Rebbe,

In Moshe Rabbeinus times beis would give malkus with 2 edim and hasraa or makus mardus in other cases. One underlying issue in this generation is that people don't take responsibility for their actions. Chas Vshalom to discipline a child in yeshiva these days...My Rosh Yeshiva used to quote either the Chazon Ish or the Steipler (don't remember which) that we should teach children the concepts of schar vonesh and not be worried about scaring the child off learning about hell.This doesn't mean to say that we should kick all bad kids out of school but we can't always baby everyone all the time and sometimes you need to put your foot down and accept that people make their own choices.

In Moshe Rabbeinus times beis would give malkus with 2 edim and hasraa or makus mardus in other cases. One underlying issue in this generation is that people don't take responsibility for their actions. Chas Vshalom to discipline a child in yeshiva these days...My Rosh Yeshiva used to quote either the Chazon Ish or the Steipler (don't remember which) that we should teach children the concepts of schar vonesh and not be worried about scaring the child off learning about hell.This doesn't mean to say that we should kick all bad kids out of school but we can't always baby everyone all the time and sometimes you need to put your foot down and accept that people make their own choices.

in Moshe Rabbeinus times, we had leaders like Moshe rabbeinu, until that's the case let's not expect our kids to be on par with that Dor.

In Moshe Rabbeinus times beis would give malkus with 2 edim and hasraa or makus mardus in other cases. One underlying issue in this generation is that people don't take responsibility for their actions. Chas Vshalom to discipline a child in yeshiva these days...My Rosh Yeshiva used to quote either the Chazon Ish or the Steipler (don't remember which) that we should teach children the concepts of schar vonesh and not be worried about scaring the child off learning about hell.This doesn't mean to say that we should kick all bad kids out of school but we can't always baby everyone all the time and sometimes you need to put your foot down and accept that people make their own choices.

Come on. You're pushing a piece in which Avi shafran is representative of all gedolim? And gedolim only get there because they have power? You know better then to engage in bizui talmedei chachomim. Yes, silence is an issue. No, that doesn't mean that there are no chashuva people in the world besides for Zvi Gluck.

I posted without comment. I can say that 2 individuals who are sitting in prison today because of people like this may actually be innocent. So please dont fault me for posting an article that may be relevant to the discussion in understanding the feeling of disenfranchisement. Maybe it belonged in the interesting articles thread. I have no further comment on the article. Who said there are no other choshuva people? There are tons.

The way he ended off ruined it all. He won't accomplish much with that attitude. The same way your cynicism to the people you don't agree with doesn't do much to endear you to others and help get a valid point across.

Again, i posted without comment. Just tell me why its not a valid article explaining how someone loses faith in daas torah, albiet possibly for all the wrong reasons.

I posted without comment. I can say that 2 individuals who are sitting in prison today because of people like this may actually be innocent. So please dont fault me for posting an article that may be relevant to the discussion in understanding the feeling of disenfranchisement. Maybe it belonged in the interesting articles thread. I have no further comment on the article. Who said there are no other choshuva people? There are tons.

Again, i posted without comment. Just tell me why its not a valid article explaining how someone loses faith in daas torah, albiet possibly for all the wrong reasons.

Posting without comment is a tactical endorsement, especially in this thread (or the politics one). Disenfranchised kids is not a chidush. I personally spend many hours a day with several of them. I think we all understand their point of view, and can appreciate them without repeating their feelings that are counter to our hashkafa

Posting without comment is a tactical endorsement, especially in this thread (or the politics one). Disenfranchised kids is not a chidush. I personally spend many hours a day with several of them. I think we all understand their point of view, and can appreciate them without repeating their feelings that are counter to our hashkafa

So posting something here means i endorse it? Wow. I learn something new every day. Also, your attempt at censorship is EXACTLY what has been argued here over and over as sweeping things under tbe rug. Good job proving a point.

In Moshe Rabbeinus times beis would give malkus with 2 edim and hasraa or makus mardus in other cases. One underlying issue in this generation is that people don't take responsibility for their actions. Chas Vshalom to discipline a child in yeshiva these days...My Rosh Yeshiva used to quote either the Chazon Ish or the Steipler (don't remember which) that we should teach children the concepts of schar vonesh and not be worried about scaring the child off learning about hell.This doesn't mean to say that we should kick all bad kids out of school but we can't always baby everyone all the time and sometimes you need to put your foot down and accept that people make their own choices.

I've been a classroom teacher for several years, and I agree that consistent discipline is needed and of great importance and assists in raising successful, Torah observant Yidden. However, the issues here are going to CVS when not during school hours, and the Klein parents saying that their daughter asked a question that was interpreted as nivul peh. These are NOT reasons to kick out vulnerable students in a life-or-death situation towards the end of the school year, regardless of the 'policy' of putting your foot down.

So posting something here means i endorse it? Wow. I learn something new every day.

Like I said, context dependent. In the Interesting articles thread, no. In the politics thread, also no. In this thread, by you, who are a valiant and ardent defender of youth such as the one who wrote the article (for which I admire you), yes I took it as an endorsement. And I concede that it was clearly misplaced and I apologize.

your attempt at censorship is EXACTLY what has been argued here over and over as sweeping things under the rug. Good job proving a point.

I have no idea what you're referring to.

It's silly to quibble here, and I'm sorry if I am. We all agree that the silence, and sweeping issues under the rug isn't helpful. (we may differ on degrees) We all agree that helping struggling kids when they are 13 is a lot better than raising money for their rehab or c'v worse. And we are all searching for a solution. I just have a really hard time when it devolves into a denigration of Chashuva Yidden and Talmedei Chachamim, many of whom lose many more nights of sleep and shed many more tears than the average guy on his soapbox in the mikva.

Apology accepted. Maybe i wasnt clear. Let me clarify. Denigrating Jews, good, better or otherwise, is counterproductive. I dont agree with the tactics. I do find value in the article in understanding the mindset and the level of frustration.

I can empathize as I'm going through hoops to get a written psak permitting attendance at "A" meetings in a church meeting hall or basement where there is no mention of Christian theology. Its dinei nefashos we are dealing with and no one wants to take a stand or has the guts to put it in writing for publoc consumption.

That being said i will never "out" those people. A federal appeals judge once told me, "Don't annoy the mind you're trying to persuade." Another person told me not to poke the bear. Combine those 2 statements and you have the beginning of a philosophy.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 19, 2017, 12:02:40 AM

many years ago i took a one-week drivers ed course in a church classroom (not a worshipping room), definitely 100% okayed by the Rabbis. k''vch, something even more important.

The "AA" meetings are 100%-allowed by any Rabbi that I've spoken too, and definitely Rabbi Twerski has this in writing. It's dangerous to wait -- have him start right away.... Written specifically for this individual should be instant. In today's world, every day counts.

many years ago i took a one-week drivers ed course in a church classroom (not a worshipping room), definitely 100% okayed by the Rabbis. k''vch, something even more important.

The "AA" meetings are 100%-allowed by any Rabbi that I've spoken too, and definitely Rabbi Twerski has this in writing. It's dangerous to wait -- have him start right away.... Written specifically for this individual should be instant. In today's world, every day counts.

Read upthread. They want specific rabbanim to cover their bases. According to those who want excuses to continue their addictions youre a sheigetz :-) and will burn.

Read upthread. They want specific rabbanim to cover their bases. According to those who want excuses to continue their addictions youre a sheigetz :-) and will burn.

rabbanim are not equipped for this. Crimes are beyond their control. When there is a deadly fire, we call 911/Fire department with hoses, trucks, ladders, and hydrant openers.A 10-yr old already died from an opioid overdose. The victims will get younger if this isn't crisis isn't treated by professionals: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/officials-boy-10-among-youngest-victims-opioid-crisis-104352263.html

pikuach nefech didn't help the Rashba (http://dinonline.org/2012/06/19/entering-basement-of-church/). But it's crazy that you're having a hard time.

I remember seeing R' Moshe's psak mentioned. I'm gonna pull that out again. I doubt the Rashba would have an issue with what we are discussing. That being said, the only value i did see in that article is the sympathetic feeling i have for the writer that is trying to get something done and cant get anyone to stick out their neck on a non-issue.

Addicts will find every excuse not to get help. They will deny there is a problem. They will say they have it under control. Short of going to rehab, which is extreme IMO and should only be done to jumpstart recovery, detox, and to seperate the addict from their regular environment, what other options are there? Therapy, which helps but only with CASAC trained therapists; self-control, which doesnt work alone; or 12 step meetings, which work in conjunction with self-control and therapy.

To give an addict an excuse is to give them additional kindling to fuel their addiction. We should be looking to find every leniency in the book to help them. A friend of mine once suggested writing a sefer on all the kulos we could rely on as opposed to the seforim that are out there that are always looking for the next level of chumrah. There is something to be said for that.

Sounds absurd, doesnt it? And a psak din in writing will make that more palatable. Hear hear.

+100 Exactly, even those at risk for picking it up once can rest assured that it's actually a mitzvah to go there and heal. or even bring a friend there. Literally life-or-death.

I can totally see Rabbi Twerski walking someone there, and I'm sure that he has items of that nature in writing, as well. His son Rabbi Ben-Tzion Twerski may be a good person to reinforce how important this treatment and prevention is. We can even have our own AA in shuls/kosher places if we are smart. Prevention is key.

+100 Exactly, even those at risk for picking it up once can rest assured that it's actually a mitzvah to go there and heal. or even bring a friend there. Literally life-or-death.

I can totally see Rabbi Twerski walking someone there, and I'm sure that he has items of that nature in writing, as well. His son Rabbi Ben-Tzion Twerski may be a good person to reinforce how important this treatment and prevention is. We can even have our own AA in shuls/kosher places if we are smart. Prevention is key.

once we can treat a physical, chemical imbalance, or a predisposition to addiction with the same approach as a broken arm or sprained ankle that needs medical treatment, casting/wrapping/support/therapy/healing, and treatment plus prevention from future injuries, then all of Klal Yisroel can be more healthy and confident.

Keeping these conditions quiet and repressing them will only make shidduchim worse (if we can reach that age before becoming addicted or a victim), and can also harm and put at risk one's future children, family, and friends...

once we can treat a physical, chemical imbalance, or a predisposition to addiction with the same approach as a broken arm or sprained ankle that needs medical treatment, casting/wrapping/support/therapy/healing, and treatment plus prevention from future injuries, then all of Klal Yisroel can be more healthy and confident.

Keeping these conditions quiet and repressing them will only make shidduchim worse (if we can reach that age before becoming addicted or a victim), and can also harm and put at risk one's future children, family, and friends...

So why do you say a kosher spot is "never" gonna happen?If there's a kosher meeting that's been around for over a decade, there can be more.

1. Thats a business that has made its place of business available for meetings, which supplements and brings new business all the time.2. Its still in an out of the way location. Go there when meetings are held. Its downright frightening. Deserted industrial area.3. In over a decade there is one you point to and a few others that i am aware of that you have not mentioned. By and large the concept of a "kosher meeting" (i suppose you mean non-church location) cannot happen within our community because of the stigmas spoken about upthread.

So when you can hold a meeting in one of the classrooms in Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park like the meetings that are held in certain non-orthodox establishments elsewhere in the city then i will say it can happen.

1. Thats a business that has made its place of business available for meetings, which supplements and brings new business all the time.2. Its still in an out of the way location. Go there when meetings are held. Its downright frightening. Deserted industrial area.3. In over a decade there is one you point to and a few others that i am aware of that you have not mentioned. By and large the concept of a "kosher meeting" (i suppose you mean non-church location) cannot happen within our community because of the stigmas spoken about upthread.

So when you can hold a meeting in one of the classrooms in Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park like the meetings that are held in certain non-orthodox establishments elsewhere in the city then i will say it can happen.

Exactly. This is where the education and prevention classes are needed, in addition to treatment classes. We've had local Jewish AA meetings in a local Orthodox shul here, and possibly saved dozens of lives. Parenting classes may help, as well.

Camp XTreme has saved lives, Kosher rehabs in CA have saved lives.

Will it take a child of a "Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park" gezhe to ch'v get sick and/or pass away until they finally make local, Jewish classes?!?!?

And if so, then does this mean that their child is of greater value than the others who have already become victims?!?!?

And if so, then is this what it means to be a Jewish leader? To not address other members of the same community?

And to not address an epidemic that is certain to increase until preventions and treatments are as mainstream and non-stigmatic as an ace bandage or a cast/crutches for those who are injured?

Exactly. This is where the education and prevention classes are needed, in addition to treatment classes. We've had local Jewish AA meetings in a local Orthodox shul here, and possibly saved dozens of lives. Parenting classes may help, as well.

Camp XTreme has saved lives, Kosher rehabs in CA have saved lives.

Will it take a child of a "Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park" gezhe to ch'v get sick and/or pass away until they finally make local, Jewish classes?!?!?

And if so, then does this mean that their child is of greater value than the others who have already become victims?!?!?

And if so, then is this what it means to be a Jewish leader? To not address other members of the same community?

And to not address an epidemic that is certain to increase until preventions and treatments are as mainstream and non-stigmatic as an ace bandage or a cast/crutches for those who are injured?

It's not AA meetings but they- https://www.facebook.com/12Twenty5/are right in Boro park

Exactly. This is where the education and prevention classes are needed, in addition to treatment classes. We've had local Jewish AA meetings in a local Orthodox shul here, and possibly saved dozens of lives. Parenting classes may help, as well.

Camp XTreme has saved lives, Kosher rehabs in CA have saved lives.

Will it take a child of a "Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park" gezhe to ch'v get sick and/or pass away until they finally make local, Jewish classes?!?!?

And if so, then does this mean that their child is of greater value than the others who have already become victims?!?!?

And if so, then is this what it means to be a Jewish leader? To not address other members of the same community?

And to not address an epidemic that is certain to increase until preventions and treatments are as mainstream and non-stigmatic as an ace bandage or a cast/crutches for those who are injured?

If these addictions or chemical imbalance issues are seen as broken arms that need a cast or strep throat that needs antibiotics, then they have the chance to be treated and healed. We can also teach how to prevent more of this just like we know what needs to be done to lower the risks and prevent strep/broken bones (when possible). Parents and balanced stable are key, as well. The leaders can promote it and make it a priority if/when they promote this education publicly.

On a similar note, if the leaders and rabbis are not seeing current facts the way they are, and it is almost like idolatry/avoda zara, Quote in this video "When you reject reality, you are rejecting the Author of reality."

Rabbis who can see the current state of individual's reality, regardless of how they got there, will encourage AA regardless of what room or building it is in. Emotional Sobriety is key towards accepting what Hashem is doing. Great points in this link by Rabbi Shais Taub: http://bit.ly/RabbiSTaubGodAndSobriety

Our learned friend @aygart together with a good portion of society believes its a self-control issue, not a disease. There are judges who refuse to acknowledge that too and sentence addicts to lengthy jail terms for crimes committed as a ditect result of their addiction.

Our learned friend @aygart together with a good portion of society believes its a self-control issue, not a disease. There are judges who refuse to acknowledge that too and sentence addicts to lengthy jail terms for crimes committed as a ditect result of their addiction.

You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?

You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?

it's obviously a combination. You can have self-control, yet the more people who are in this 'mode' locally, the more it will spread. We see it already.

Also, it's a disease that people are much more tempted and susceptible to it. Cigarettes are both self-control and your environment. I have no taayva to these things, yet for the people who do -- it rules their lives. (And yes, it's a disease that can be quit with self-control; it's extremely hard.)

it's obviously a combination. You can have self-control, yet the more people who are in this 'mode' locally, the more it will spread. We see it already.

Also, it's a disease that people are much more tempted and susceptible to it. Cigarettes are both self-control and your environment. I have no taayva to these things, yet for the people who do -- it rules their lives. (And yes, it's a disease that can be quit with self-control; it's extremely hard.)

I never argued that it is not a combination. That is what I meant by calling him out on his (very common when he describes anything I write on this subject) false absolute.

You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?

Do you believe its a disease? Yes or no. No one chooses to have a disease. Its that simple. If you can grasp your head around that concept then i was wrong. If you say that for one second it has to do with self control then a cancer patient should control their bad cells too. If you differentiate between the diseases then yoir position is absolue on self control.

If these addictions or chemical imbalance issues are seen as broken arms that need a cast or strep throat that needs antibiotics, then they have the chance to be treated and healed. We can also teach how to prevent more of this just like we know what needs to be done to lower the risks and prevent strep/broken bones (when possible). Parents and balanced stable are key, as well. The leaders can promote it and make it a priority if/when they promote this education publicly.

I'm not sure how you're replying to what your quoted. All I said was that even if it happened (Ch"V) in their own families it's possible these leaders wouldn't change their stance.

Do you believe its a disease? Yes or no. No one chooses to have a disease. Its that simple. If you can grasp your head around that concept then i was wrong. If you say that for one second it has to do with self control then a cancer patient should control their bad cells too. If you differentiate between the diseases then yoir position is absolue on self control.

You answer first. From what I remember you have never yet given a straight yes or no or otherwise unequivocal answer in this entire thread.

So how can a 12 step system (which is based primarily on self control) be of any help at all?

Are you referring to someone who is already addicted or the "future addict" that it is inevitable that they will become addicted?

Its not based on self control its based on a support system, attending meetings, changing ones lifestyle, character change, filling the void, admitting powerlessness over the disease, finding a Higher Power, listening to a voice other than ones own, taking an inventory both globally and daily, sharing your inventory of yourself with another person and ypur Higher Power, asking for help from ypir higher power to have your defects of character removed, Making a list of people one harmed, making amends to those people, seeking a better connection to God and helping others who still suffer.

So now that you know what 12 steps are about, do you want to stick to your self control garbage. Educate yourself before you make blanket statements.

And yes, pre-addiction self control MAY help. Most addicts are predisposed and are deeply flawed individuals who usually end up acting out in one way or another. There is no way to prove someone is an addict and because of self control didnt act on the addiction.

Its not based on self control its based on a support system, attending meetings, changing ones lifestyle, character change, filling the void, admitting powerlessness over the disease, finding a Higher Power, listening to a voice other than ones own, taking an inventory both globally and daily, sharing your inventory of yourself with another person and ypur Higher Power, asking for help from ypir higher power to have your defects of character removed, Making a list of people one harmed, making amends to those people, seeking a better connection to God and helping others who still suffer.

So now that you know what 12 steps are about, do you want to stick to your self control garbage. Educate yourself before you make blanket statements.

And yes, pre-addiction self control MAY help. Most addicts are predisposed and are deeply flawed individuals who usually end up acting out in one way or another. There is no way to prove someone is an addict and because of self control didnt act on the addiction.

Every single one of those 12 steps are strategies to help with self control. They definitely don't change his chemical imbalance.

Most addictions are borne out of character defects which come from something in the past. I dont personally care why one is an addict or find it important at all to know. I just know that addicts that follow the 12 steps regularly, encompass them in their lives, attend meetings regularly, use the tools of support that the programs provide are always successful in arresting their diseases progression and recovering.

If its a judgment to say that the seeking of a high is to cover up some pain in ones past, whatever high that may be, drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, food, rhen im judgmental. It just my experience over the last 7 years being around addicts every day that has given me any of the insights i choose to share.

I don't think trauma, anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, or PTSD (to name a few) are character defects.

You are looking at them as defects in a person. Thats not what i mean. They may be environmental defects that affected a person and 12 steps will help with those in conjunction with therapy and sometimes even meds.

What do you know about neuroscience and what does and doesn't change brain chemistry?

More than you may realize. EVERYTHING affects brain chemistry. That is what neuroplasticity is mostly about. Family support affects brain chemistry in a way that make self control easier, for example. If this is what is being referred to by chemical imbalance in the brain then everything I had mentioned as promoting self control similarly affects brain chemistry. My mentions of self control were never that we should simply tell an addict that they shoould have some self control contrary no matter what hvaces42's responses to me may lead you to believe. He simply does not grasp what I am saying.

More than you may realize. EVERYTHING affects brain chemistry. That is what neuroplasticity is mostly about. Family support affects brain chemistry in a way that make self control easier, for example. If this is what is being referred to by chemical imbalance in the brain then everything I had mentioned as promoting self control similarly affects brain chemistry. My mentions of self control were never that we should simply tell an addict that they shoould have some self control contrary no matter what hvaces42's responses to me may lead you to believe. He simply does not grasp what I am saying.

Just this.

Your brain works via chemicals. If you have sad triggers, brain releasesurgery the sad hormones, and you feel sad.

Then some groisseh genius scientist notices that depressed ppl have that chemical and derives thar the chemical causes sad instead of the order way around.

You're just lucky they didn't study burns and derive that burns are caused by neurons picking up pain signals, so the way to treat them is to numb the nerves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control)Self-control, an aspect of inhibitory control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhibitory_control), is the ability to regulate one's emotions, thoughts, and behavior (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior) in the face of temptations and impulses. As an executive function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_function), self-control is a cognitive process that is necessary for regulating one's behavior in order to achieve specific goals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal) [2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control#cite_note-Executive_functions-2)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control)Self-control, an aspect of inhibitory control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhibitory_control), is the ability to regulate one's emotions, thoughts, and behavior (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior) in the face of temptations and impulses. As an executive function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_function), self-control is a cognitive process that is necessary for regulating one's behavior in order to achieve specific goals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal) [2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control#cite_note-Executive_functions-2)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control)Self-control, an aspect of inhibitory control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhibitory_control), is the ability to regulate one's emotions, thoughts, and behavior (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior) in the face of temptations and impulses. As an executive function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_function), self-control is a cognitive process that is necessary for regulating one's behavior in order to achieve specific goals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal) [2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control#cite_note-Executive_functions-2)

Addicts have few inhibitions or goals. Their cognitive process is skewed. Long story short, Wikipedia definition of self control is exactly the traits that are missing or defective in addicts.

Addicts have few inhibitions or goals. Their cognitive process is skewed. Long story short, Wikipedia definition of self control is exactly the traits that are missing or defective in addicts.

Are you referring to someone who is already an addict? If yes then I fully understand that a 12 step program works by helping the patient have the inhibitions and self control he obviously did not have until then.

I am not sure. On the other hand some studies have shown, and I have cited them previously in this thread, that there are some things which are advocated which can be detrimental to self control. Some attribute the failure of "Just say no" to exactly that. BTW, it is not "my theoretical pre addict" but yours.

So how can a 12 step system (which is based primarily on self control) be of any help at all?

Are you referring to someone who is already addicted or the "future addict" that it is inevitable that they will become addicted?

The 12-step system can help them stay alive for one more day. Each day. They will not be cured. They will always need that support, continuous 12-step guidance, and they will almost always remain at a higher risk.

"just say no" works to say no to the very first cigarette, drink, or joint. After that first non-self-control of not saying "no" the first time, especially for heroin, it's a huge almost uncontrollable disease. Once they are hooked, the victims choose heroin over their own parents, children, and loved ones, as seen in the adult heroin victim car-deaths with kids in the backseat.

I understand what you are referring to when you say "different perversions". My question is if the RATE of those engaging in these is the same as those not engaging in abstinence outside of Catholic Schools. Success cannot be measured by a standard of all or nothing.

The 12-step system can help them stay alive for one more day. They will not be cured. They will always need that support, continuous 12-step guidance, and they will almost always remain at a higher risk.

"just say no" works for the very first cigarette, drink, or joint. After that first non-self-control of not saying "no" the first time, especially for heroin, it's a huge almost uncontrollable disease. Once they are hooked, the victims choose heroin over their own parents, children, and loved ones, as seen in the adult heroin victim car-deaths with kids in the backseat.

At first glance I cannot find anything here i disagree with, other than possibly your characterization that after one failure they are doomed forever. I know many who have had a handful of cigarettes and never came close to addiction.

and so that the rabbis and the leaders understand the life-death risks, and that it's an increasing epidemic that goes beyond a self-control issue once it's in deep.

Yes it is extremely important that rabbonim understand this. I have used my affiliation with rabbonim here in Lakewood to advance this. I do feel strongly that much of the fault for those who do not understand and even sometimes seem callous when people discuss it with them respectfully lies at the feet of those who have use this topic as a weapon to attack yiddishkeit as a whole. It then becomes much more difficult to listen to a discussion on the topic with an open mind. They would now need to first get past the fear of being attacked. The same goes for many other issues such as various types of child abuse. When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.

Yes it is extremely important that rabbonim understand this. I have used my affiliation with rabbonim here in Lakewood to advance this. I do feel strongly that much of the fault for those who do not understand and even sometimes seem callous when people discuss it with them respectfully lies at the feet of those who have use this topic as a weapon to attack yiddishkeit as a whole. It then becomes much more difficult to listen to a discussion on the topic with an open mind. They would now need to first get past the fear of being attacked. The same goes for many other issues such as various types of child abuse. When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.

and THAT is exactly why we mentioned that if the Rabbonim would treat it as a physical condition as a broken arm, and have public treatments, prevention, and education, then this can be resolved better. Can Rabbi BenTzion Twerski help the Lakewood rabbonim see this?

edited to add this Robin Williams link. He had a mental illness that needed help. Mental illness also exists in Lakewood, Skver, Bobov, Satmar, etc... it also needs prevention, education, and treatment: http://popchassid.com/robin-williams-didnt-kill/

At first glance I cannot find anything here i disagree with, other than possibly your characterization that after one failure they are doomed forever. I know many who have had a handful of cigarettes and never came close to addiction.

1) no, they are not doomed forever, but the "Just say no" works for Phase #1 of pre-addiction. It's obviously much harder afterwards...

2) A 'handful of cigarettes' may be fine for some and they can go the next 50 yrs without issues. However, a 'handful of heroin', will possibly cause years of addition, financial issues, and high risk of death from of or tainted product, etc... So these are really the substances that we need to educate and obliterate. In public. These rabbis are hiding this. It's not a religion issue. Frum people have died.

1) no, they are not doomed forever, but the "Just say no" works for Phase #1 of pre-addiction. It's obviously much harder afterwards...

2) A 'handful of cigarettes' may be fine for some and they can go the next 50 yrs without issues. However, a 'handful of heroin', will possibly cause years of addition, financial issues, and high risk of death from of or tainted product, etc... So these are really the substances that we need to educate and obliterate. In public. These rabbis are hiding this. It's not a religion issue. Frum people have died.

2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? I mean I never heard one class about heroin but I as kid I could tell you that heroin is a big no-no. If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.

2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? ........

yes, there are people who don't realize the problem with heroin: The 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.

yes, the 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.

Are you so sure of that? Are there kids skipping all the gateway drugs and going straight to H?And are there kids using gateway drugs that don't discuss or know anything about the higher level drugs and the risks involved? Or maybe they know exactly what it is, and because they're depressed or have some other issue they simply don't care?

yes, the 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.

I disagree. They started with the "non-harmful" pot and graduates to hard drugs. It takes a huge step for someone to cook up a batch of heroin and be willing to stick a needle under their toenails or between their toes or even in their arm. Yes thats where they hide the first signs of needle use. Seen it with my own eyes. Track marks are a late stage indication of heroin use. For the life of me i cant understand a hashgacha organization giving a hashgacha on pot.

Are you so sure of that? Are there kids skipping all the gateway drugs and going straight to H?And are there kids using gateway drugs that don't discuss or know anything about the higher level drugs and the risks involved? Or maybe they know exactly what it is, and because they're depressed or have some other issue they simply don't care?

Ask anyone, there are no gateway drugs. Pot is just recreational. Pot is the replacement for cool guys who used to smoke cigars to look cooler than the cigarette smokers. Where is the ban on smoking pot. Pictures of women are a problem, not pot use.

I disagree. They started with the "non-harmful" pot and graduates to hard drugs. It takes a huge step for someone to cook up a batch of heroin and be willing to stick a needle under their toenails or between their toes or even in their arm. Yes thats where they hide the first signs of needle use. Seen it with my own eyes. Track marks are a late stage indication of heroin use. For the life of me i cant understand a hashgacha organization giving a hashgacha on pot.

Correct. I wrote that line in order to answer yuneeq who wrote, "Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin?"

2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? I mean I never heard one class about heroin but I as kid I could tell you that heroin is a big no-no. If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.

Ask anyone, there are no gateway drugs. Pot is just recreational. Pot is the replacement for cool guys who used to smoke cigars to look cooler than the cigarette smokers. Where is the ban on smoking pot. Pictures of women are a problem, not pot use.

I don't think pot is a "gateway" drug, as it is just a Siman (that something's wrong) not a Siba. Something like prescription meds can be real gateway though. Regardless, my point was that anyone that's even just smoking pot tends to better educated about H and other hard drugs than regular folk.

I don't think pot is a "gateway" drug, as it is just a Siman (that something's wrong) not a Siba. Something like prescription meds can be real gateway though. Regardless, my point was that anyone that's even just smoking pot tends to better educated about H and other hard drugs than regular folk.

In todays society its not a siman of anything anymore. I agree pills are where the danger really lies.

2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? I mean I never heard one class about heroin but I as kid I could tell you that heroin is a big no-no. If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.

Heroin is more readily available today the ever before.It's there and in a moment of weekness, the week can succumb to only one quick taste... It's all it takes

You are looking at them as defects in a person. Thats not what i mean. They may be environmental defects that affected a person and 12 steps will help with those in conjunction with therapy and sometimes even meds.

No I'm not. You're the one who used the word character flaws. Since when are environmental defects character flaws?

Addictive behaviors compound to and cause character flaws (e.g. flaky, unreliable, isolating, lying etc.), but I don't think it's usually character flaws that lead to addiction.

No I'm not. You're the one who used the word character flaws. Since when are environmental defects character flaws?

Addictive behaviors compound to and cause character flaws (e.g. flaky, unreliable, isolating, lying etc.), but I don't think it's usually character flaws that lead to addiction.

Lets try this again. Character defects are within every person. We are born perfect and somewhere along the way we develop attributes and defects. When faced with environmental issues, e.g. trauma, the coping mechanism in addicts is to drown the pain of the trauma in the addiction. Low self esteem is a character defect. The coping mechanism is again to drown the feelings of worthlessness in the addiction. The 12 steps give one a mechanism to build character. To change the way they cope with issues.

I think there is a real chance the Klein's can make a difference.. But only if main stream media can report it, and they are not silenced by the mosdos heads who feel that they are on the hot seat... And are all tzadikim etc

I think there is a real chance the Klein's can make a difference.. But only if main stream media can report it, and they are not silenced by the mosdos heads who feel that they are on the hot seat... And are all tzadikim etc

ועמך כולם צדיקים...לעןלם ירשו ארץfrom all those tzadikim all we get are people in the ground

Its about time someone said something publicly. Kol hakavod to the Klein's. Just dealt with a yeshiva who told a boy who is graduating from their own elementary school that he is not welcome in their high school because "he will drown here"...with no options offered. Then when he chooses a great place the old yeshiva tries to meddle because "s'past nisht" that their elementary graduate should go "there". Im disgusted.

Very powerful. Strong messages at the end regarding Chinuch. Though I have to disagree with him about this being an issue only at the extremes, negativity and rejection can leave a deep scar even with those that will seem OK. This is a chinuch issue (and not only for mechanchim, but also for parents, and everyone), words do mean something, words could not only kill, but they could maim. Sometimes it will be more obvious, sometimes it will be more serious, but in all cases, words can and do injur. I heard once from an old time melamed who said, if a person doesn't love (unconditionally - if I may add) each and every child in the classroom as their own, that person shouldn't be in chinuch.

I am not debating the facts, questioning or G-d forbid belittling the tragedies. I am asking the "why?" "why now"?

אם לא עכשיו אימתי1. Prescription drugs became more effective in pain management. 2. Pain management became more common. 3. Addiction to pain medication became an issue. 4. Pain medication alone didnt provide the high anymore.5. Heroin and fentanyl become the drug of choice to get to rhe higher high.

אם לא עכשיו אימתי1. Prescription drugs became more effective in pain management. 2. Pain management became more common. 3. Addiction to pain medication became an issue. 4. Pain medication alone didnt provide the high anymore.5. Heroin and fentanyl become the drug of choice to get to rhe higher high.

I'm not so sure on the accuracy of 1 & 2.

I've been prescribed pain medication in the past, and took only the minimum necessary. I didn't enjoy the slight "high" feeling that came along with it. I was also prescribed same by a dentist, and though I had the prescription filled, didn't take even one. My son just had minor surgery and was prescribed pain killers, he was scared to take it. Eventually, he took one, but then felt he didn't need any more. I would guess that most people won't sell or give away any leftovers they have (I probably have quite a bit of leftovers at home, which I keep in case of emergency).

Doctors are very careful and hesitant in prescribing these nowadays, much more than 5 or 10 years ago. And there's a lot more oversight. I honestly doubt whether painkiller are the gateway (except when some really needed them for some time, and got addicted - which isn't common enough to make this into an epidemic).

Now weed is a totally different story. I can see how legalization, removal of stigma as something totally bad, etc. etc. could make that a very easy gateway.

How many pain management centers were around 20 years ago and how many are there today? Oxy wasnt around 20 years ago.

Yes regulation is finally catching up. Most doctors who used to prescribe pain meds can no longer do so without first having the patient go to pain management. Cross-referencing and watchlists for doctors and pharmacies are maybe 2 years old in NY. Mandatory eScript and doing away with hand written prescriptions is also less than a year old in NY.

I too went to the dentist and got tylenol with codiene, of which i took exactly 2 and was done with the rest. The guy in shul who has oxy and percocet he refills regularly for his (no longer hurting) hip replacement and doesnt use and has been (quietly) looking for a buyer is the problem we have.

Meanwhile I still believe in being able to have painkillers around as well as alcohol and more. The idea is about raising your children well. If you know one of your kids has a problem that's a diff story. Do what you need to do.

Though I do agree it's smart to get rid of pills when you're done with them.

After the fact, yes. Though many times you'd have no idea that they're addicted before they steal your pills.And if it takes you a year to notice pills missing you might not have any idea who took them.

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I guess that would be a problem if only one bathroom.

Even if you have a personal bathroom it can't be that hard to get a few minutes of separation if they're motivated enough.

Make them off limits to guest then. I guess that would be a problem if only one bathroom.

Oldest trick in the book put a carboard up against the bottom or top shelf with it sticking out of the bottom or top and put marbles behind it. Close door and slide out cardboard. You will know exactly when someone opens the medicine chest. ;D

Oldest trick in the book put a carboard up against the bottom or top shelf with it sticking out of the bottom or top and put marbles behind it. Close door and slide out cardboard. You will know exactly when someone opens the medicine chest. ;D

What about the legit guest who is looking for a q-tip? Would be pretty embarrassing.

the successful long-term centers do better when they are out of town. More relaxed, less pressure, and fewer "reminders" of their past issues. (i.e. Malky did very well for 2 yrs in CA. After a few weeks in Monsey is when the relapses happened...)

However, YES -- local support centers and counseling are of extreme importance. Even better when publicly acknowledged without stigma. Repeated visits to get fixed -- almost/just like getting a cast in Urgent Care.

The music video and song where made to mimic currently popular style, which is decidedly unheimish. Personally, I saw past that and appreciate the message Amudim is trying to get out there. But to think that the medium chosen wouldn't alienate some is naive.

The music video and song where made to mimic currently popular style, which is decidedly unheimish. Personally, I saw past that and appreciate the message Amudim is trying to get out there. But to think that the medium chosen wouldn't alienate some is naive.

I agree that the song style is goyish, but so are many other current songs. Noone would protest any other song of the same style...

The music video and song where made to mimic currently popular style, which is decidedly unheimish. Personally, I saw past that and appreciate the message Amudim is trying to get out there. But to think that the medium chosen wouldn't alienate some is naive.

This is not something that only affects lowlives living in gettos.. or homeless.

There are basements in Ir hatorah vehachasidus full of broken bottles, vials of crack and used syringes.

Question is a) Are you aware of this? B) Is there a benefit of you being aware?

Amudim deserves a lot of credit for raising awareness of the issue and offering assistance/guidance, but if his target audience is naive people, how does this video prove anything about basements in the ihr hatoireh?

My guess is that it's targeted to kids who are nebech affected and is trying to offer them hope. Strategy is to show to the masses and 'if it saves one kid it was all worth it'. I'm not in a position to disagree, but we don't show mangled corpses to encourage safer driving etc. Should we?

My guess is that it's targeted to kids who are nebech affected and is trying to offer them hope. Strategy is to show to the masses and 'if it saves one kid it was all worth it'. I'm not in a position to disagree, but we don't show mangled corpses to encourage safer driving etc. Should we?

Ever seen MADD ads? Been to Fallsburg at the end of the summer where a mangled car from a fatal accident is on display on the high school lawn?

Amudim deserves a lot of credit for raising awareness of the issue and offering assistance/guidance, but if his target audience is naive people, how does this video prove anything about basements in the ihr hatoireh?

My guess is that it's targeted to kids who are nebech affected and is trying to offer them hope. Strategy is to show to the masses and 'if it saves one kid it was all worth it'. I'm not in a position to disagree, but we don't show mangled corpses to encourage safer driving etc. Should we?

yes. They show results and professional videos of drunken driver head-on collisions during Drivers' Ed courses for teens. Very powerful and effective.

This video is of extreme importance. It is also good for parents of teens to see that anything can happen in a minute. Literally life or death. Unexpected. At any time.

Amudim deserves a lot of credit for raising awareness of the issue and offering assistance/guidance, but if his target audience is naive people, how does this video prove anything about basements in the ihr hatoireh?

My guess is that it's targeted to kids who are nebech affected and is trying to offer them hope. Strategy is to show to the masses and 'if it saves one kid it was all worth it'. I'm not in a position to disagree, but we don't show mangled corpses to encourage safer driving etc. Should we?

It is absolutely targeted to the masses of naive people like you, who think it's a goyisheh problem,and probably only affects "nebach kids".

It's unfortunately a global problem that affects much more than some kids.

Not sure I understand your aurgument that this video can't help educate the naive masses, that the scourge of addiction can and does affect almost anyone.

i politely disagree, the best way is yo daven. no need to be aware of nothing.

Are you serious? But what happens if your tefilos were not miskabel? What if your son or daughter is cv not perfect, and for some reason gets bullied/thrown out of school? What will help you or them be aware of the dangers of drugs?

What if your job/marriage is stressful, CV you break a leg and get hooked on narcotics?

What if you're choshuver bochur drinks at every sholom zocur, bris, Kiddush, fabregen, late night Seder, week end, beIN hazmanim, chasuna, vort, etc. And you only find out there is a problem when his new kallah can't handle it?

If you don't mind my asking and if you're allowed to say. (In the Jewish community) What type of people and how old are they, get narcan? Which age group and type of people are the most common?

Narcan is a medication that reverses the effect of opiates/opioids for a short time.I've seen all ages and back rounds from young teens to older adults overdose whether it was by mistake or not it is a real issue

Narcan is a medication that reverses the effect of opiates/opioids for a short time.I've seen all ages and back rounds from young teens to older adults overdose whether it was by mistake or not it is a real issue

In your experience. Would you say that cases of frum yeshivish people are roughly the same amount as other Jewish people?

How can you know what to look out for if there's nothing to look out for?

i never said there’s nothing to look out all I said that I wish those people who think that there’s nothing it’s Goiyish and there’s nothing to look out, should always stay thinking like this and not have to experience first hand!

I recall quite a few years ago I was asked to help an organization that was dealing with at risk teenagers. I was given the opportunity to learn with this bochur along with one or two others. He struck me as a very bright and intelligent boy, significantly more capable than the other(s) in the group. One of the other ones just roams the streets of Crown Heights nowadays, seems like his brain is totally wasted. While this one can still strike an intelligent conversation, but unfortunately seems like his life is in ruins.

I recall quite a few years ago I was asked to help an organization that was dealing with at risk teenagers. I was given the opportunity to learn with this bochur along with one or two others. He struck me as a very bright and intelligent boy, significantly more capable than the other(s) in the group. One of the other ones just roams the streets of Crown Heights nowadays, seems like his brain is totally wasted. While this one can still strike an intelligent conversation, but unfortunately seems like his life is in ruins.

So true and so sad. The bottom line is that in many cases that I am aware of, there's nothing to even try with insurance. The good doctors and/or programs are out-of-network and/or out-of-state and cost tens of thousands to save lives!

So true and so sad. The bottom line is that in many cases that I am aware of, there's nothing to even try with insurance. The good doctors and/or programs are out-of-network and/or out-of-state and cost tens of thousands to save lives!

(By: Zvi Gluck)Let me be the first to admit that I am not a math person, yet, unfortunately, it seems that right now my life has been all about numbers.

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For those of you who have been spared the pain that has devastated klal yisroel since mid-June, let me fill you in on what has been taking place in Jewish communities all over the United States. Over a three week period, drug overdoses killed nine of our own, with six more remaining in comas as I write these words. Another 17 overdoses had more positive outcomes, baruch Hashem, with Narcan successfully reviving those victims, but without proper treatment I can’t honestly tell you that any of those individuals are really out of the woods.Without fail, every time I share statistics like this, I get flak from people who suggest that I am making a chilul Hashem by publicly acknowledging that there is a severe drug problem in the frum community. It should come as no surprise that those claims come from people who know little about the realities of abuse and addiction. I can tell you one thing – they definitely don’t come from the friends or loved ones of those whose lives were cut tragically short, who know all too well just how horrific and far reaching this plague really is.Allow me to set the record straight for those who believe that discussing these deaths embarrasses the Jewish community. A June 2019 National Safety Council report estimated that at least 100 people die every day from drug overdoses, with other reports putting that number at 300. While the death rate in the Jewish community is significantly lower than national averages, we can’t exactly pat ourselves on the back and pretend we are doing okay while people continue to die and families are crying endless tears. The Torah mandate of lo saamod al dam reyecha makes it crystal clear that even one death is one too many and each and every one of us is halachically obligated to take action when Jewish lives are being lost.There is no doubt that as a community we are true gomlei chesed. From Hatzolah to Bikur Cholim to Tomchei Shabbos and more, we have proven time and time again that we stand united and are there for those who need help. Millions of dollars in resources have been poured into these incredible organizations, as well as into our schools, shuls and other vital institutions and yet in certain areas we are still falling short. I cannot understand why we have embraced those who struggle with cancer while so many still turn a blind eye to those who struggle with mental illness, drug addiction, sexual abuse and suicidality. Are those people less a part of our community? Have we written them off completely because these problems make us feel uncomfortable? It pains me to no end to know that we have had to waitlist people who have reached out to us for help because without sufficient communal support we simply don’t have the resources to provide for them.I’m willing to bet that you’d be surprised if you knew who the people who came to us were. For the most part, people assume that those who are struggling with drug addictions are the kind of individuals that make you want to cross the street when you see them coming down the block, or angry teenagers with chips on their shoulders, but that is far from true. I can’t even begin to count how many clients have come to us, hooked on painkillers that were legally prescribed to them after a medical procedure, or students who abused their prescription ADHD meds to get through a grueling finals schedule. Others are individuals who experienced some kind of trauma who are just looking to numb the pain so that they can get through life; I promise you the list goes on and on.The fact remains that addiction is a disease, one that doesn’t discriminate between men and women, kids or grown ups, marrieds or singles and the nine people we just lost ranged in age from 16 to 64 – they were mothers and fathers, singles brimming with potential and yes, even grandparents. We need to face the reality that drug addiction is a far reaching plague and that tremendous resources and manpower are needed to get this deadly epidemic under control. It is ironic that people feel very free to tell me what I am doing wrong, yet those same individuals have no interest in stepping up to the plate and becoming part of the solution. And lest you think this is exclusively an Amudim problem, I have heard from all of my colleagues in the field that they too have gotten apathetic responses from the vast majority of the community when it comes to becoming involved. Critics? There are plenty of those out there. People who are interested in actually rolling up their sleeves and getting involved? Sadly, those are few and far between.Over the past five years, Amudim has helped nearly 6,000 families, a number that represents just a small fraction of those who are trapped in never ending nightmares. Between our United States and Israel offices, we field 200 calls a day and have 30 to 40 new cases coming in under our comprehensive case management every week. With each weekly story that we send out, every PSA video that we release and every awareness event that we produce, we see with our own eyes that the naysayers are wrong because our lines keep ringing off the hook as people who have been suffering in silence realize that help is just a phone call away.In addition to raising awareness, we have also been working hard on proactive solutions. We have done training sessions with schoolchildren so that they are better informed and can avoid potential pitfalls which could lead to trouble. We have done seminars with semicha students, rabbonim and rebbetzins so that they can be on the lookout for problems and catch them before they spiral out of control.But no matter how far we have come and how many people we have helped, it isn’t enough as long as we continue to bury overdose victims. We saw 32 potentially fatal overdoses in just three weeks, and with nine people lost there are far too many milestones that will never be marked and simchos that will forever be marred by the gaping holes created by these deaths. It is incredibly painful to see so many lives forever changed and it is clear that we need to do more on a personal and a community level.There is so much good going on at Amudim, but we cannot do it alone. My door, and Amudim’s doors, are always open for feedback, new ideas and to welcome new members and volunteers to our team. There are various roles that contribute to the Amudim team and each one is meaningful and valuable to the total picture. I welcome your emails at zgluck@amudim.org and while it may take me some time to respond, rest assured I will get back to you. There is always so much that needs to be done, whether it is helping clients who are having trouble paying for their care, helping Amudim financially so we can continue doing what we do, bringing awareness to our communities or even something as simple as sharing our resources on social media.Let’s work together to save lives and build futures.Zvi Gluck is the director of Amudim, an organization dedicated to helping abuse victims and those suffering with addiction within the Jewish community and has been heavily involved in crisis intervention and management for the past 19 years. For more information go to www.amudim.org.(YWN World Headquarters – NYC)

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3 COMMENTS

yehuda26July 8, 2019 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm

I understand from the article that Amudim helps (b’kitzur) 2 types of addicts: those who become hooked on prescription drugs without intending to, when they were trying to deal with a hopefully short-term issue; and those who intentionally use drugs to deal with deep-seated emotional issues without making any attempt to resolve the issues themselves. Obviously this is an over-simplification but it does have some truth to it.As regards the first group of people: Without an effective campaign to open people’s eyes to the very real dangers posed by the drugs their doctors prescribe them, there will be such limited success in dealing with the results of psychiatry that funds channeled through Amudim to deal with the victims are effectively wasted. And trying to get any MSM outlet to publicize the dangers of using tranquillizers, anti-depressants, sleeping pills, and all the rest, is going to prove almost if not entirely impossible. Consider the sheer numbers of people on mind-altering prescription drugs – some estimates run to 50% of the adult population. How many people know that coming off benzos cold-turkey can be fatal? Your GP won’t tell you that. But why should private funding be necessary to deal with problems caused by psychiatrists/GPs who did not tell the whole story to the people they got addicted? Do they tell young women how hard it is to get off benzos, and that they will not be able to have children until they get off the drugs? How many people even know what tapering is?As regards the second group of people: It’s not that we’re apathetic to their suffering and the need to help them. But, the frum world is absolutely overflowing with people who are suffering in one way or another, most of them through no fault of their own, and many of them could really, really do with financial help. So expect to find very little sympathy for channeling much-in-demand funding towards people who are perceived, rightly or wrongly, as having caused their own suffering.Also, I think it is disingenious of you to provide “shock” statistics derived from the second group and then try to gain support by telling us that you help people from the first group. The people in the first group by and large aren’t the ones featured in the headlines.When it comes to suffering, would you really claim that those addicted to drugs are a) more numerous or b) more deserving than any other segment of klal Yisrael? What about those who have heart attacks from financial stress? I think most of us know of at least a few people who were niftar before the age of 60 where lack of money for essentials played a huge part in their passing. One could even argue that supporting parents financially will have a drip-down effect on their teenage children, those most vulnerable to intentional drug addiction, and make them more sensitive to and give them more time for their children.In short, dealing with the consequences of various situations and failings in society seems like a waste of funds when the core issues should instead be addressed. Please don’t try to make people feel guilty for not wanting to donate to Amudim when as a community we give so generously to many worthy causes, and possibly quite accurately perceive the problems of drug addiction as less significant than many of the other problems we deal with.

ANON21July 8, 2019 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm

Well since you’re wondering why cancer gets more attention I’ll explain it to you in just a few words. Cancer is not self inflicted. And while apparently you do deal with addiction cases that are also not self inflicted the majority of them is self inflicted. Therefore the sympathy level just isn’t there

There is nothing to do. All options have been thought of. It's just a matter of more awareness for prevention.

Ha. There is plenty more to do. I will pound the table over and over until someone is ready to listen...12 step programs...for the addict, for the family of the addict...therapists that are CASAC trained. No more rehabs. Open meetings in frum places. Do not allow any non-CASAC trained therapists to work in our community mental health organizations.

Ha. There is plenty more to do. I will pound the table over and over until someone is ready to listen...12 step programs...for the addict, for the family of the addict...therapists that are CASAC trained. No more rehabs. Open meetings in frum places. Do not allow any non-CASAC trained therapists to work in our community mental health organizations.

Useless waste of money. They dont work. As soon as theyre done there is no follow up. Read the article. Its a good jumpstart if there is a plan for continuous recovery. But just rehab and then winging it, like most are doing, is a colossal waste of time, money and hope. If there is no accountability by the addict after rehab and no awareness of what to look for in behaviors of the addict by the families its a waste.

Useless waste of money. They dont work. As soon as theyre done there is no follow up. Read the article. Its a good jumpstart if there is a plan for continuous recovery. But just rehab and then winging it, like most are doing, is a colossal waste of time, money and hope. If there is no accountability by the addict after rehab and no awareness of what to look for in behaviors of the addict by the families its a waste.

There are frum meetings in Lakewood at least once a week. Kids and adults are still od'ing every couple of days. Thanks to narcan most are not dying

Ha. There is plenty more to do. I will pound the table over and over until someone is ready to listen...12 step programs...for the addict, for the family of the addict...therapists that are CASAC trained. No more rehabs. Open meetings in frum places. Do not allow any non-CASAC trained therapists to work in our community mental health organizations.

It sounds like we have a passionate and knowledgable expert that already knows what to do.However, this expert still hasn't taken action, and believes

None.No action necessary...open-mindedness necessary.How ever did you guess? Can i interest you in a Persian rug.

Sad that all we can get is snark.

My point is simple - if the people most passionate and knowledgable aren't going to take action on this issue, then don't expect anything more than the status quo. If awareness is the big thing, run around and do whatever it takes to make people aware instead of complaining about it in a forum. IMHO being knowledgable and not taking action is sweeping it under the rug.

My point is simple - if the people most passionate and knowledgable aren't going to take action on this issue, then don't expect anything more than the status quo. If awareness is the big thing, run around and do whatever it takes to make people aware instead of complaining about it in a forum. IMHO being knowledgable and not taking action is sweeping it under the rug.

Are you questioning the action I take? Do you know me? Do you know what I do or have done? I dont advertise what I do. Neither does anyone else who does. I have never advocated just awareness. I complain from a place of action, not inaction.

Are you questioning the action I take? Do you know me? Do you know what I do or have done? I dont advertise what I do. Neither does anyone else who does. I have never advocated just awareness. I complain from a place of action, not inaction.

I didn't know that you are involved as your post seems to show otherwise. But thanks for taking action.Maybe it should be advertised what you and others do, and with awareness others will get involved?

I think that both awareness without action or action without awareness will not solve the issue.

Are you questioning the action I take? Do you know me? Do you know what I do or have done? I dont advertise what I do. Neither does anyone else who does. I have never advocated just awareness. I complain from a place of action, not inaction.

I'm ready to help. Tell me what to do. I have no friends or family with such issues thank god.

Im not trying to say anything you would comprehend. You are free to comment on things you know. This is something you know nothing about...i.e. drug use in the religious Jewish community.

The community has nothing to do if a drug is a gateway drug or not. If kids are going from pot to heroin in the Jewish community the problem is not pot. Spend your time and resources address the root of the problem not chasing a rabbit down a hole.

The community has nothing to do if a drug is a gateway drug or not. If kids are going from pot to heroin in the Jewish community the problem is not pot. Spend your time and resources address the root of the problem not chasing a rabbit down a hole.

The point is not to scare kids with incorrect facts about pot (I hope)...but the fact remains that in orthodox communities, kids that are using pot are very often already moving in the direction of harder drugs, simply because it's not just recreational use, it's part of a larger pattern of pain or rebellion.

The point is not to scare kids with incorrect facts about pot (I hope)...but the fact remains that in orthodox communities, kids that are using pot are very often already moving in the direction of harder drugs, simply because it's not just recreational use, it's part of a larger pattern of pain or rebellion.

Ok then you have to address the pain and rebellion. If didn't use pot they will just go to the harder drugs directly if the pain and rebellion is not addressed. Take using pot as a siren going off.

How many hard drug users started out on breast milk? The questions are meaningless.

There are many things which are not prohibited, yet we set boundaries and make guidelines to protect against abuses and excess. The behaviors that an addict exhibits usually comes from ignoring the boundaries and indulging in the excesses.

Pot use is on the rise because 1. It is more readily available due to decriminalization on the state and local levels; and 2. Because it is an easy tool escape reality.

When someone is an addict and the prohibited or formerly prohibited vice is now more readily available. Or, if the social stigma of the vice has been diminished or removed entirely. What do you think will happen? Of course they will indulge in the excess.

Therefore, the solution has always been, in our community, to set boundaries, even for permitted things. So speaking about Pot is absolutely crucial and relevant.

A community without boundaries such as the secular world at large will not understand this.

There are many things which are not prohibited, yet we set boundaries and make guidelines to protect against abuses and excess. The behaviors that an addict exhibits usually comes from ignoring the boundaries and indulging in the excesses.

Pot use is on the rise because 1. It is more readily available due to decriminalization on the state and local levels; and 2. Because it is an easy tool escape reality.

When someone is an addict and the prohibited or formerly prohibited vice is now more readily available. Or, if the social stigma of the vice has been diminished or removed entirely. What do you think will happen? Of course they will indulge in the excess.

Therefore, the solution has always been, in our community, to set boundaries, even for permitted things. So speaking about Pot is absolutely crucial and relevant.

A community without boundaries such as the secular world at large will not understand this.

If you are coming from a place where you think (community) you are special we will never agree on anything.

It seems you are talking about the dangers of addicts using pots. That is totally different point/discussion.