Re: How could Mary be connected with TRF?

mrshouse wrote:

But why killing john? After Sherlock sacrified himself in TRF it makes no sense to me...Furthermore, if there is a line to be drawn between mycroft and mary, as in the pictures above, why did mycroft no background check on mary?The falling between mary and john was already done when sherlock reappeared out of thin air for the both of them.

We don't know that Mycroft didn't run a background check on Mary; I wrote about this on the AGRA thread, so I won't repeat it here, but Mycroft would not have been babysitting John in Sherlock's absence. He would check, but that doesn't mean that he would do anything about the information. He doesn't do rescuing damsels in distress, John being the damsel in this instance.

I agree that killing John is highly implausible; however, a consulting master criminal with a world wide network would undoubtedly have information about people prepared to murder for money. It would be exceedingly strange if he didn't; it may be that Mary was linked to Moriarty in that way, simply as a potential resource. The one thing I am sure of is that we are going to learn a lot more about Mary in S4

Re: How could Mary be connected with TRF?

Ormond Sacker wrote:

Maybe she wouldn't, maybe she would. After all, Moriarty tried to kill Sherlock, last I checked that didn't really generate hate for either character nor actor.I just hope Moffat and Gatiss holds to what they said about not letting fans unduely influence the show. I know we have some influence, after all they aren't writing in a vacuum and they can't help but run across all our mad theories, what we like and what we don't. I just don't want it to make them scarp an otherwise good story line because they fear that the fans will hate it. That would probably be the quickest way to kill the show.

They are ACD fanboys, which does make a difference to the possible plotlines; they are never going to deviate from the iconic status of Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson. They have specifically said that they cannot have a lethal killer nurse following the guys around shooting anyone she thinks might be a threat to them, because that would be the rest of the show, for ever. It isn't about what the fans think of the character, it's about the central raison d'être of the show. You can't alter that because it wouldn't be Sherlock Holmes any more...

Re: How could Mary be connected with TRF?

Willow wrote:

We don't know that Mycroft didn't run a background check on Mary; I wrote about this on the AGRA thread, so I won't repeat it here, but Mycroft would not have been babysitting John in Sherlock's absence. He would check, but that doesn't mean that he would do anything about the information. He doesn't do rescuing damsels in distress, John being the damsel in this instance.

I agree that killing John is highly implausible; however, a consulting master criminal with a world wide network would undoubtedly have information about people prepared to murder for money. It would be exceedingly strange if he didn't; it may be that Mary was linked to Moriarty in that way, simply as a potential resource. The one thing I am sure of is that we are going to learn a lot more about Mary in S4

I tend to agree. Sherlock said Mary acquired Mary Morstan's name and date of birth 5 years prior to his shooting in HLV "and thereafter her identity." I keep wondering whether Mary could have been Moriarty's main sniper in TGG (the sniper who killed the old blind lady and all the other people in that block of flats; possibly one of the snipers at the pool too). Magnussen does mention that she went "freelance." It's possible Jim may have used her services prior to TGG and pressed her back into service when he went on his bombing spree game with Sherlock.

I also find it impossible to believe that Mycroft would not have investigated Mary's background, particularly once he knew Sherlock was returning to London (and John). I mean, the man kidnapped John and tested his integrity with a bribe the night after our good doctor met Sherlock. He'd certainly investigate someone who was becoming close to his brother, albeit through John. Unless, of course, Mycroft already knew who and what Mary was. She may have freelanced for him. Perhaps she was the person who "persuaded" John's sniper to step down in TRF?

Additionally, if John could figure out that Sherlock was protecting someone by not identifying his shooter, Mycroft surely could. The only reaction we really get from Mycroft about who might have shot Sherlock comes when Mummy mentions it on Christmas Day. He just sort of smirks and raises his eyebrows.

"It was worth a wound–it was worth many wounds–to know the depth of loyalty and love which lay behind that cold mask."Arthur Conan Doyle, "The Adventure of the Three Garridebs"

Re: How could Mary be connected with TRF?

What Mycroft does or doesn't know remains an interesting point of speculation. I'm convinced he knows more than is apparant, but not sure what. If he knows Mary's background, why didn't he tell Sherlock anything at all? Maybe it isn't alarming enough? Maybe she was a good person after all?

Osmond said that they took her characterisation from Moran, I think it might be McMurdo.

Re: How could Mary be connected with TRF?

In my opinion connecting Mary to TRF is too far fetched.It always comes down to what Sherlock might have missed scanning her because there was too much sentiment involved and what Mycroft will appear to know or maybe also having missed because of ...don't know...too much self confidence?

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Eventually everyone willsupport Johnlock.

"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you" - Steven Moffat"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

Re: How could Mary be connected with TRF?

mrshouse wrote:

In my opinion connecting Mary to TRF is too far fetched.It always comes down to what Sherlock might have missed scanning her because there was too much sentiment involved and what Mycroft will appear to know or maybe also having missed because of ...don't know...too much self confidence?

The humanisation of Sherlock coming into play again?Could be as simple as that, yes - but, to repeat myself, I feel that a lot of what happened in HLV doesn't stand scrutiny unless it's revisited again later.Plus, I like that Sherlock has let his guard down slightly with those he's closest to, I like him as this slightly vulnerable, slightly autistic (?) character with a razor sharp brain , and if I'm honest, I'm not too keen on the idea that his powers of deduction are failing him because he cares - it may mean he's either constantly going to get outsmarted or he's going to shut down on everyone again.

"And in the end,The Love you takeIs equal to the Love you make" The Beatles

Re: How could Mary be connected with TRF?

Tinks wrote:

mrshouse wrote:

In my opinion connecting Mary to TRF is too far fetched.It always comes down to what Sherlock might have missed scanning her because there was too much sentiment involved and what Mycroft will appear to know or maybe also having missed because of ...don't know...too much self confidence?

The humanisation of Sherlock coming into play again?Could be as simple as that, yes - but, to repeat myself, I feel that a lot of what happened in HLV doesn't stand scrutiny unless it's revisited again later.Plus, I like that Sherlock has let his guard down slightly with those he's closest to, I like him as this slightly vulnerable, slightly autistic (?) character with a razor sharp brain , and if I'm honest, I'm not too keen on the idea that his powers of deduction are failing him because he cares - it may mean he's either constantly going to get outsmarted or he's going to shut down on everyone again.

No; I don't think his powers of deduction are failing him. Sherlock hadn't realised that John would be so devastated, which threw him off balance, and therefore he suppressed his 'reading' of Mary. He isn't going to do that again because he has recognised that mind and heart can co-exist, and that you can and should use both.

But I entirely agree that we will get a lot more follow up from S3; the writers have left open a lot of obvious plot points, and the way in which they resolve them should be fascinating. One of the reasons I like the show so much is that there are all these tangled threads running through it; trying to untangle them is a great deal of fun

Re: How could Mary be connected with TRF?

I kinda hope they move on from the 'caring is not an advantage' theme. It was the central theme in Scandal and the three episode arch of s3, they've really played it out now. For the same reason, I don't think we'll ever see a callback to TRF, it was fun, time to move on. New baddies and new themes to explore.

Re: How could Mary be connected with TRF?

I also think she'd make a great villain, but I wonder ... Sherlock has already missed all the clues once with Mary and her shooting him was a huge wake up call (!!!). I don't know if he'd miss them again. But maybe he didn't miss them, but believes Mary is OK anyway, or, didn't miss them and has some bigger plan. I think the second is less likely because he was happy to get Mary and John back together and to leave John with her when he flew off, so he doesn't think she's a danger to John, at least. Mary being at the pool or any Moriarty connection could be the thing on the memory stick that she thought would stop John loving her.

Re: How could Mary be connected with TRF?

Well I was lying awake again this morning...thinking about Sherlock, all normal practice for me!I am a bit slow on the uptake sometimes, I admit that...and maybe it's because I carry my own baggage-possibly.But anyway, I do now see where people are coming from with the 'Mary working for Moriarty' thing.That would probably be the most dark and devastating thing for John and( thereby) for Sherlock, in S4.So yes, I get it.Though that still wouldn't preclude Mary really loving John.All we would then need to concern ourselves with(or maybe anyway)is how she would meet her demise.Unless of course she's carrying Moriarty's child!Bu anyway, possibly some of this is for another thread.