Posted
by
msmash
on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @03:20PM
from the check-mate dept.

In its latest effort to fend off cryptocurrency scams, the Securities and Exchange Commission launched its own fake initial coin offering website today called the Howey Coin to warn people against fraudulent cryptocurrencies. From a report: The name is a tongue-in-cheek reference to the Howey Test that the SEC uses to determine whether an investment is a security, which the Commission would therefore have legal jurisdiction over. Click 'Buy Coins Now' on the Howey Coins site and you'll be redirected to an SEC page that states: "We created the bogus HoweyCoins.com site as an educational tool to alert investors to possible fraud involving digital assets like crypto-currencies and coin offerings." It even has a white paper [PDF].

Here's the thing - individually hand-crafted items are really expensive. You couldn't afford to buy even a fraction of the stuff you buy, if everything was still made the way it was made in the 18th century. Especially if it were carried on tiny little boats rather than huge container ships. Most of what you have, you can have only because of tools, factories, machines - stuff that increases productivity, expensive stuff. Multi-million dollar items like ships and factories are needed in order to produce your TV, your clothes, and everything you that a serf in 1818 didn't have. Foundries, fiber optic networks, etc are all the goose the lays the golden egg for society, the reason you don't pick cotton for $3 / day.

Shifting gears a little, when were young you may or may not have been taught that saving up is a really good idea, because shit happens. If you have a car, you'll have car problems. You can either scramble to come up with the money to fix it AFTER it breaks, maybe via a pawn shop, or you can put a $10 aside each paycheck BEFORE the car breaks and not get fucked over by a pawn shop. "I can't afford to save $10 of my paycheck", some say. But you CAN afford to pay a lot more than that to a pawn shop? Maybe when your car breaks down you'll use a pay day lender, because you can afford to pay back twice as much? If you're broke, you REALLY can't afford to not aside a few bucks for when shit happens.

You know what other kind of shit happens? If you keep living, you will get old. Really old. Putting a few dollars aside from each check so you have it when you're old is a really friggin good idea too.

So we have a need for really expensive things which produce other good stuff, expensive things like factories, power plants, steel mills, trains, ships etc. Those things are called "capital goods". In order for you to get cool shit, we need a bunch of money to buy capital goods (things like motorcycle factories). Also we have a bunch of people saving up money for when shit happens, and saving up more money for when they get old. Pretty much everyone who both a) isn't stupid and b) was raised by someone who had a clue, is saving some money aside. So there is a shitload of money sitting around being saved up.

Here's a great idea. Instead of having that saved money sitting around getting moldy until you retire in 30 years, why don't we use that saved money to build useful stuff like factories, trains, foundries, power plants, and other things that produce good stuff for everyone? That way everyone can get more good stuff, cheaper. Seem like *maybe* a good idea?

There are two alternatives to buying capital goods with savings. You can have a society without any capital goods, a primitive, tribal society. Or you can have a society in which very few very, very wealthy people can afford to personally buy ships, build factories, etc.

So I assume we don't want only Donald Trump getting any benefit from machinery and stuff, while the rest of us live as serfs, picking cotton buy hand. Okay, cool - give me the money you've saved so I can go build a factory. What? You don't want to hand over your money? But if you do, everybody, society as a whole, will be a lot better off. We can buy a $2 million combine harvester instead of all of us picking peanuts one-by-hand, by hand. Yeah, most people don't want to hand over their savings for the betterment of society.

Okay how about this. If you let us use the $500 you have saved, if you want it back a year from now we'll give you back $550. If you don't end up needing it until you retire, we'll pay you back $3,300. Sound better? You put in $500 now toward buying capital goods, you get $3,300 back later. That's a lot better deal for you, a deal that most people will take, if they've been saving at all.

That's investment, that's capitalism. Saving up for a rainy day like your grandma told you too, then pooling those savings to get useful stuff that makes life better for everyone. That's why we're not subsistence farmers in the US, because we invested and bought machines and other capital goods.

Actually you *can* guarantee it. Most people don't completely guarantee it, because low-risk has much higher returns than no-risk. One incredibly simple way to guarantee the outcome is to be long and short on the same stock, at the same price. Obviously you can get far more complex, such as being short and long at different prices, and thereby guarantee whatever you want to guarantee, such as "a gain between 3% and 4%, no higher and no lower".

> That is why Wall Street isn't investment. When you buy a stock the company doesn't get any benefit. You are buying someone else's stake. Not supporting that company.

If I buy a local restaurant that is for sale and could be bought by anyone, to shut it down, rename it... and I buy and keep it working with the same people, is that not an investment? The Stock owners are by definition THE owners, buying stock is purchasing direct from the owners of a company, directly benefiting some owners, indirectly b

you were good up until that part about getting $550 back in a year of $3300 back by retirement. Unfortunately the way that investments and capitalism work there is no way to actually guarantee that you will get money back on your investment. Essentially it is not saving but instead hedging a bet that you can pick the right technology that will benefit society at large and thus create a return on your initial investment. If that money doesnt benefit society as a whole then you end up loosing that money, so i

>> Unfortunately the way that investments and capitalism work there is no way to actually guarantee that you will get money back on your investment.>Actually you *can* guarantee it. Most people don't completely guarantee it, because low-risk has much higher returns than no-risk.

Actually no, you cannot. Deflation is a real thing, although it has been a while, and inflation makes most of the 'guaranteed' gains a lie - you are losing real value on your very small returns. This is actually part of the big game plan at present to push the middle class in to more risky investments, which generally end up shoveling the majority of the gains to the primary stakeholders.

Sure, you can have a company that will 'guarantee your return', but who is guaranteeing that company? hmm? There is no safe bet, especially if there is a real economic downturn.

The 'problem' is there has not been one for quite a long time - there have been bumps, however governments have plastered over them by protecting the 'too big to fail' companies using public money, and then printing more and more money to inflate out of their problems. The very rich love this, as most of that new money tgushes up pretty quickly to the top, making them somewhat inflation proof, while inflating away the value of the lower classes.

Your hedging example is quite funny - you think the outcome of an equal bet both ways on a game is no loss? go and check the numbers;)

Hedging is a way of trying to minimise risk, often by dealing with others who disagree about the level of risk - but it in no way protects you from a general system failure.

But yes, you started off well, only losing the plot towards the end with your thoughts of there being safe investments.

My great grandfather bought a farm in 1912, he lost it in the 20s, and never ever forgot the name of the lawyer who foreclosed on him - it was a very shameful thing back then - the farm was well run and profitable, but economics of farming and debt changed..He bought another farm around 1940. Larger, better positioned, for less money... Because the value of farms dropped, significantly.Farms were about the MOST solid asset there was back then..

Many people have forgotten that there are NO safe investments, only considered risks.However, many MANY more people have forgotten that if you dont save, dont invest, dont bring value, then expect your net worth to tend to zero (if you are lucky).

I would argue that treasury bonds have a guaranteed return*, since the issuer also controls the supply of the currency they will be repaid in. One way or another they will be able to give you the return promised, though the actual value of your payment in real goods might not be what you were hoping for. (*Of course there is always a small chance that the government and/or currency in general may cease to exist, but I believe we can discount that for practical purposes)

LOL Look at all the little butthurt capitalists replying to this thread. They all have one thing in common: lack of imagination and creativity. Repeating the same falacy again and again: that communism is the only alternative to capitalism.

Reality check: There ARE existing economic models that work better than capitalism. And they don't involve the government owning anything. Do your homework. But you wont. Cause none of you are interested in actually improving your world. All you care about is being right,

But I notice you dont name any.I am getting you also believe that the failed communist stats 'are not real communism'And that you also believe that you and your little clique of politically fashionable friends at the cafe know the answers.Well guess what, the world is a very VERY complex place, and none of the good answers are easy answers, or even comfortable ones.

Captialism as it currently stands is somewhat degenerate - less so that the existing examples of communism however (much les

Going to complain that YOU didnt vote for THE MAN? Well, I suspect you support one of the two, and they are both THE MAN, in case you had not realized.Face it, people are too busy arguing about which minority is the most worthy or not to do anything about the people in power causing the real problems.Do you think that is an accident? Interesting..

This is going to result in clicks that aren't from people who bought into the site wanting to buy coins. That's a bunch of bogus data and hits artificially supporting the SEC's stand. Just watch, later they'll come out with numbers for how many people tried to buy coins from their bogus ICO site and almost all the hits will be from people rubbernecking after reading an article such as this.

so far nearly all ICO's are one kind of scam or another, or at best a really REALLY bad investment. sadly people are ignoring this and stil being dumb shits and buying into ICO's, this sort of site regardless of the data collected will probably create some much needed publicity. Though anyone dumb enough to fall for an ICO at this point in time thoroughly deserves to be parted with their money.

The bad thing is that there is such a thing as a legitimate ICO. If I discover/invent some new breakthrough in how a cryptocurrency works and develop a genuinely novel solution based on it an ICO would be a valid way to launch it.

Unfortunately, creating yet another coin that is simply using the ethereum blockchain is what almost all of these ICOs are doing. I don't think that is necessarily a scam but I'd agree it is a horrible investment.

What is to think out? You design a new and well thought out novel currency. Investors agree it is well thought out and will be successful. You release into the wild at which point the world agrees and begins using it and therefore value goes up or they don't.If you believe "crypto" means digital currency you probably shouldn't be invested in anything even remotedly related to it. Crypto means cryptography... it is the thing behind that paidlock icon saying your connection to this browser is secure. If you d

"So you agree then, there are NONE that are not scams or really ill advised investments."I've never seen anything with a purpose called an ICO. I'm just saying if you give it a decade for the craze to cool down it would be a valid option for releasing something that is actually worthwhile. Saying ICO's are scams is like saying real estate investments are scams. It is a popular vehicle for scammers but that doesn't mean the tool itself is a scam. So many idiots falsely called Bitcoin a ponzi scheme that prem

Maybe there is something about the way these ICO are working I'm not aware of. My understanding is they are simply a way to invest in the initial supply of the cryptocurrency, some or all of which is presupplied by the company who designed it... afterward the success or failure of the currency would be within the control of those who bought it and have nothing to do with the original company. If the company walks away with what they made in this process they haven't defrauded anyone, it is what people do wi

SEC can go screw itself. It wants to be in charge but needs to stay with securities instead of trying to label software technology securities and rule it. It has its own domain.. just because it wants its cut doesn't mean we should hand it over.

Are (any) fiat-currency and (any) cryptocurrency really equivalent, as cryptocurrency fans claim?For example, US Dollar and Bitcoin are really equals?Value/validity/authorization of US dollar is provided/guaranteed by US Government (and in-turn whole US Public)!Also, not to mention, US Dollars in any US Bank is insured by US Government!What authorization/guarantee/insurance is behind Bitcoin? Nothing!Sorry but that is the end of discussion then!