as a fan of football, I simply cannot sit here and say Manning is not great. Yes, I prefer TB, but Manning has been great, cerrtainly in the convo for GOAT, just like TB. I see his diminished arm strength sure, but doesnt that put the year he is having in perspective? 36 TD's. 7 INT's. 114 rating which is his 2nd highest in his career....with a spaghetti arm!

Simply put saying Manning is having a record year does not mean one is not a Pats fan...

I guess you didn't read the OP, it wasn't about how great he is(and he is) it was about his noodle arm and how his throws have no velocity ala chad pennington. You remember Chad Pennington don't you rkarp?

Yes, I know that, and I replied that in spite of loss of arm strength and velo, he is still having a great year, statistically the 2nd best in his career...his arm weakness and the year he is having, shows how great he really is...

On another note.. he is also not throwing the deep ball like he did at Indy. Recall how throwing the deep ball was a tactic to get a PI call? Seems Peyton would do that once or twice a game just to get one.

On a serious note, let's not forget the other Manning, Chelsea Manning, rotting in a military prison because exposed American war crimes in Iraq. History will judge us by how we treat true heroes such as this. Petition Obama to pardon Manning immediately.

Going to Denver he took advice from TB as stated bt annoncers last night.

Throws to the outside and down field 30+ all had diminished velocity and accuracy as stated by announcers.

He IMHO has an odd way to throw the ball. Watch others TB, Rodgers, etc... they seem to have a more pure over the top using the whole body to throw. PM seems to throw more just with the shoulder and does not seem to use the whole force of his body.

as a fan of football, I simply cannot sit here and say Manning is not great. Yes, I prefer TB, but Manning has been great, cerrtainly in the convo for GOAT, just like TB. I see his diminished arm strength sure, but doesnt that put the year he is having in perspective? 36 TD's. 7 INT's. 114 rating which is his 2nd highest in his career....with a spaghetti arm!

Simply put saying Manning is having a record year does not mean one is not a Pats fan...

Maybe you missed that great piece NBC did on the number of Pro Bowl players each had on Offence and Defense throughout their careers.

It clearly showed Manning has been surrounded by many more superior players throughout his career. Maybe he's a bit more a product of his environment then "great".

as a fan of football, I simply cannot sit here and say Manning is not great. Yes, I prefer TB, but Manning has been great, cerrtainly in the convo for GOAT, just like TB. I see his diminished arm strength sure, but doesnt that put the year he is having in perspective? 36 TD's. 7 INT's. 114 rating which is his 2nd highest in his career....with a spaghetti arm!

Simply put saying Manning is having a record year does not mean one is not a Pats fan...

Maybe you missed that great piece NBC did on the number of Pro Bowl players each had on Offence and Defense throughout their careers.

It clearly showed Manning has been surrounded by many more superior players throughout his career. Maybe he's a bit more a product of his environment then "great".

Of course he's been a product of his "environment". That encompasses everything. Teammates (defensively and offensively), leagues changing rules to benefit him, and also, the biggest of them all, the DOME. I argue, all QBs who play in a dome are a notch below QBs who don't. Period. Brees and Manning are nowhere near Tom's zip code. Period. Think about it. Bree's plays 9 games minimum a year in a dome. Away at Atlanta is the 9th. Meanwhile Tom has been performing at this high level for 13 years in New England. In the elements. Home and away. Wind, rain, everything. Rodgers is the only other QB I would mention at least in the same zip code. This is why the Brady/Manning debate should have been and for all time is a waste of breath. Brady above and beyond. Not even close. Yes, not even close. Those who think so, well..

Of course he's been a product of his "environment". That encompasses everything. Teammates (defensively and offensively), leagues changing rules to benefit him, and also, the biggest of them all, the DOME. I argue, all QBs who play in a dome are a notch below QBs who don't. Period. Brees and Manning are nowhere near Tom's zip code. Period. Think about it. Bree's plays 9 games minimum a year in a dome. Away at Atlanta is the 9th. Meanwhile Tom has been performing at this high level for 13 years in New England. In the elements. Home and away. Wind, rain, everything. Rodgers is the only other QB I would mention at least in the same zip code. This is why the Brady/Manning debate should have been and for all time is a waste of breath. Brady above and beyond. Not even close. Yes, not even close. Those who think so, well..

So many focus on Manning's stats forgeting he has been playing in offenses his entire career built to support his passing capabilities and giving him weapons to that end. Brady has never been a focus when it comes to building an offense around him, let alone a passing offense. It's been only since about 2006 - 2007 in which Brady has been "released" to show his passing skills like we are seeing now. When have we seen the Pats focus on building an offense of high caliber players around Brady? They get good players, but, none that cause you to salivate.

combination of the wind and his neck surgery. There is no way Manning the same. My mother had neck/back surgery. I know. Manning is getting older like some user said. It has some effect his throwing ability.

Also, he had been playing in a dome with Pro Bowl players through a decade. Brady had experienced pressure than Manning thanks to the inconstistant OL and Brady 2008's ACL tore ankle.

Warnings were out. I said he should have gone to Arizona. These players' agents are dumb.

Welkie's told him to go to Denver for a ring when the SB is outdoors in Jersey and Gomer sucks outdoors in the cold. I see it as the player's ego taking over.

Warnings were out? He should have gone to the rebuilding Cards instead of the 9-2 Broncos? OMG! You are hilariously foolish. You'd think that you'd be so excited to get lucky and squeak out a win with the refs help that you'd just go run and hide in a hole like you did when your D gave up 24 points in a half. you continue to amaze. More ego talk? Do you subscribe to Egos Digest or what? You are obsessed.

Warnings were out. I said he should have gone to Arizona. These players' agents are dumb.

Welkie's told him to go to Denver for a ring when the SB is outdoors in Jersey and Gomer sucks outdoors in the cold. I see it as the player's ego taking over.

Warnings were out? He should have gone to the rebuilding Cards instead of the 9-2 Broncos? OMG! You are hilariously foolish. You'd think that you'd be so excited to get lucky and squeak out a win with the refs help that you'd just go run and hide in a hole like you did when your D gave up 24 points in a half. you continue to amaze. More ego talk? Do you subscribe to Egos Digest or what? You are obsessed.

Warnings were out. I said he should have gone to Arizona. These players' agents are dumb.

Welkie's told him to go to Denver for a ring when the SB is outdoors in Jersey and Gomer sucks outdoors in the cold. I see it as the player's ego taking over.

Warnings were out? He should have gone to the rebuilding Cards instead of the 9-2 Broncos? OMG! You are hilariously foolish. You'd think that you'd be so excited to get lucky and squeak out a win with the refs help that you'd just go run and hide in a hole like you did when your D gave up 24 points in a half. you continue to amaze. More ego talk? Do you subscribe to Egos Digest or what? You are obsessed.

The moron strikes again huh? He should have gone to Arizona if nothing else due to the weather factor. Manning to Fitz would have been decent. Funny how he gave the Jets zero thought huh? Bet you are a little bit peeved by that one eh? So the refs bailed the Pats out by calling holding on a defensive back that reversed an interception? That would have ended the game in regulation? Oh wait thats right, I forgot. They called that FOR the Broncos. Whoops. I bet there are some doctors who would love to study you and you penchant for moronic statement. Hmmm. I should try to track IPs. Now that WOULD be interesting.

Still doesn't look the same to me regardless of what all the commentators seem to believe. Yeah his wobbly balls are a bit more susceptible to adverse weather conditions, but even with that there were a number of throws that seemed to lack the needed juice. He made a few good ones, but there didn't seem to be much consistency.

Wobbly balls is a condition that becomes more of a problem as people get older.

I'm one of the older posters on this board and I can assure you (as can my wife) that there is absolutely nothing wobbly going on in my household.

Last year watched the Denver-KC game, in KC. Everything was crossing patterns, short outs, quick throws. In that whole game he threw like 3 passes over 20 yards, 1 INT. 1 incomplete, the other Reciever so big he out-musculed Defender.He doesn't have the strength he used to have.

Warnings were out. I said he should have gone to Arizona. These players' agents are dumb.

Welkie's told him to go to Denver for a ring when the SB is outdoors in Jersey and Gomer sucks outdoors in the cold. I see it as the player's ego taking over.

Warnings were out? He should have gone to the rebuilding Cards instead of the 9-2 Broncos? OMG! You are hilariously foolish. You'd think that you'd be so excited to get lucky and squeak out a win with the refs help that you'd just go run and hide in a hole like you did when your D gave up 24 points in a half. you continue to amaze. More ego talk? Do you subscribe to Egos Digest or what? You are obsessed.

The moron strikes again huh? He should have gone to Arizona if nothing else due to the weather factor. Manning to Fitz would have been decent. Funny how he gave the Jets zero thought huh? Bet you are a little bit peeved by that one eh? So the refs bailed the Pats out by calling holding on a defensive back that reversed an interception? That would have ended the game in regulation? Oh wait thats right, I forgot. They called that FOR the Broncos. Whoops. I bet there are some doctors who would love to study you and you penchant for moronic statement. Hmmm. I should try to track IPs. Now that WOULD be interesting.

Another Rusty persona? Why do you need so many handles to say the same thing? Funny how he gave the Jets zero thought? First, are you privy to his inner thoughts? Second, why would the rebuilding Jets sign an aging, declining WR to about the only WR position they have covered. Third, why are Pats fans so dang stupid?

Warnings were out? He should have gone to the rebuilding Cards instead of the 9-2 Broncos? OMG! You are hilariously foolish. You'd think that you'd be so excited to get lucky and squeak out a win with the refs help that you'd just go run and hide in a hole like you did when your D gave up 24 points in a half. you continue to amaze. More ego talk? Do you subscribe to Egos Digest or what? You are obsessed.

The rebuilding Cards are 7-4 in the toughest division in football.

As noted by AFNAV, I have no idea how one suggests the Pats won based on officials' help, especially when an INT was taken away.

Anybody think Fetus Head chose Denver in part because the air is thinner and it would compensate somewhat for the noodle arm?

Maybe.... at altitude, a golf ball travels about 10% further in thinner air. So, his 20 yard passes in Indy, are going 22 - 23 yards if he gives the same effort. So, he now thinks I need a 20 yard pass, so, throw it like an 18 yard pass and it will go 20!!! Less effort, same result!!

Thanks Bill for putting a little scientific fact into this conjecture filled discussion...

The HIgh altitude is the next best thing to playing in a dome....

Manning is older and weaker with a flawed delivery. He throws mostly with his arm in a jerky quick release over the top and throws with less spin on the ball. Not every throw goes bad obviously but in windy cold conditions his jerky delivery gets worse because cold affects the arm shoulder legs ... in other words all the compnents to throwing a football. Anyone who has played QB knows these details make a huge difference.

Compounding this is that trying to force the ball when these conditions present themselves will often make it worse. Releasing the football perfectly is a little like a golf swing with a lot of moving parts but the wrong thing to do is grip it too tight and muscle it.

Brady on the other hand has a more fluid delivery that has been crafted and perfected by gurus his entire life. He throws more perfect spirals and puts more spin on the ball. Watching these 2 QBs throw in the wind is like night and day.

Maybe.... at altitude, a golf ball travels about 10% further in thinner air. So, his 20 yard passes in Indy, are going 22 - 23 yards if he gives the same effort. So, he now thinks I need a 20 yard pass, so, throw it like an 18 yard pass and it will go 20!!! Less effort, same result!!

Thanks Bill for putting a little scientific fact into this conjecture filled discussion...

The HIgh altitude is the next best thing to playing in a dome....

Manning is older and weaker with a flawed delivery. He throws mostly with his arm in a jerky quick release over the top and throws with less spin on the ball. Not every throw goes bad obviously but in windy cold conditions his jerky delivery gets worse because cold affects the arm shoulder legs ... in other words all the compnents to throwing a football. Anyone who has played QB knows these details make a huge difference.

Compounding this is that trying to force the ball when these conditions present themselves will often make it worse. Releasing the football perfectly is a little like a golf swing with a lot of moving parts but the wrong thing to do is grip it too tight and muscle it.

THANKS.. Golf 101 came in handy in a football discussion. How about that!!!!

I think Sunday night's weather, combined with the aging of these quarterbacks, perfectly showed why Brady is a winter beast, and Manning can't get it done in adverse conditions. I've actually never thought that Manning had a great arm (just average), and the fact that he can't throw a spiral is also telling. Brady throws a tight spiral 90% of the time (and has been throwing the ball incredibly well the past 3 weeks), and Manning rarely does. His best spiral on the night was the TD pass to Tamme, into the wind. Everything else he threw defied everything that Gordon Bombay taught, as they were solo-flying ducks.

The scouting report on Matt Ryan out of college was that, while he was accurate, he threw a lot of wobbly passes. Is it a coincidence that his only postseason victory was at home in the Georgia dome? I don't think so.

Maybe you missed that great piece NBC did on the number of Pro Bowl players each had on Offence and Defense throughout their careers.

It clearly showed Manning has been surrounded by many more superior players throughout his career. Maybe he's a bit more a product of his environment then "great".

Surrounded by talent, played in a dome, piled on stats against weak teams in the regular season, consistently loses against playoff caliber competition, only Super Bowl win was against Rex Grossman ... sounds like your typical below average QB.

In defense of Manning he's pretty beat up right now. But there is truth that he doesn't do well in the cold. I was surprised when he did sign with Denver after being in a dome his whole career. Those passes were very un-Peyton like though. He's been known to throw ducks in bad weather but it was like almost every pass. No zip and wobbling like a drunken sailor.

Warnings were out. I said he should have gone to Arizona. These players' agents are dumb.

Welkie's told him to go to Denver for a ring when the SB is outdoors in Jersey and Gomer sucks outdoors in the cold. I see it as the player's ego taking over.

Warnings were out? He should have gone to the rebuilding Cards instead of the 9-2 Broncos? OMG! You are hilariously foolish. You'd think that you'd be so excited to get lucky and squeak out a win with the refs help that you'd just go run and hide in a hole like you did when your D gave up 24 points in a half. you continue to amaze. More ego talk? Do you subscribe to Egos Digest or what? You are obsessed.

The moron strikes again huh? He should have gone to Arizona if nothing else due to the weather factor. Manning to Fitz would have been decent. Funny how he gave the Jets zero thought huh? Bet you are a little bit peeved by that one eh? So the refs bailed the Pats out by calling holding on a defensive back that reversed an interception? That would have ended the game in regulation? Oh wait thats right, I forgot. They called that FOR the Broncos. Whoops. I bet there are some doctors who would love to study you and you penchant for moronic statement. Hmmm. I should try to track IPs. Now that WOULD be interesting.

Another Rusty persona? Why do you need so many handles to say the same thing? Funny how he gave the Jets zero thought? First, are you privy to his inner thoughts? Second, why would the rebuilding Jets sign an aging, declining WR to about the only WR position they have covered. Third, why are Pats fans so dang stupid?

Lol I love this Rusty crap. I'm actually a real person, spent 10 years in the Air Force as a navigator on Combat Search and Rescue C-130s. I only have one handle moron, and this is it, and always has been. Rusty is such a dumb name and I'll just leave it at that. Why would the Jets do it? Same reason the a Broncos did. He was a better option that most QBs out there. Geno looks awesome eh? I said nothing about Fitz to the a Jets. I said Manning to the Jets. Learn how to read big guy. Or girl. Whichever.