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I seem to recall you providing a writeup of the Taiwan theory that was 99% understandable strictly through English information well before ep5 came out.

Me? Nope. I was surprised as everyone else when the theory was published here, and, to my knowledge, it happened several months after EP5. It happened even after my Kogane theory, which was also elaborated after EP5.

Uh, having only read the first novel (after watching the anime) I came to the conclusion that the culprits were Genji and Nanjo. But everyone probably already knew that and I'm either gonna be ignored or spammed about my idiocy...

Actually Oliver proved that you could get to Taiwan from the text shown in EP3 alone.
Unfortunately the most vital part was initially minstraslated and corrected only after EP5, so for the english readers it was impossible to understand it until then. It was a very ambiguous text and probably most japanese misunderstood it too.

Uh, having only read the first novel (after watching the anime) I came to the conclusion that the culprits were Genji and Nanjo. But everyone probably already knew that and I'm either gonna be ignored or spammed about my idiocy...

Most of us would disagree with that conclusion. What is your theory against them?

Most of us would disagree with that conclusion. What is your theory against them?

Well, from the viewpoint that a witch can't possibly be the culprit, they were the ones that had no alibi for all of the murders together. They were also part of the last that died and went unchecked. Even if Genji isn't a culprit then Nanjo most certainly is due to the fact that he would be able to make a living companion seem dead. Then there's the motivation side of it: They were both the only two allowed in Kinzo's study and they were both friends to him, so they had something in common which could have been a reason for teaming up. As for their reason to murder, maybe a wish from Kinzo, or perhaps they were driven mad by his antics.
To be honest though, my main standing point would be the absence of their alibis.

The part where the adults are discussing about the epitaph. At a certain point with the fixed translation it becomes clear that they all know what is the "beloved homeland".

Because of that the very next part where we learn that Eva went there it becomes clear that she went to that place they are all thinking about (and yet they don't mention). The brief description Eva made of that place was enough for Oliver (after a few researches) to narrow it down to only two possible places, one of which was Taiwan.

Before the translation was fixed, everyone would think that Eva went to Odawara and therefore nobody even started to think about which kind of place she went to.

EDIT: I guess you want to know for translation purposes, here's the sentence:

Quote:

`"............Odawara is definitely where he was born, `@`but I don't think this hometown Father loved was Odawara.`@` I believe all of us siblings are thinking of the same place."`@

Very subtle, but it completely changes everything that comes afterwards.

Honestly when I watched the anime(which was before I read this), I figured this was one of those stories where the magic is ''real'', but it's catalyst to powering it was belief(not totally uncommon), meaning it wasn't some metaphor for some special warm fuzzy feeling, but happens in the most literal sense. Sort of like Fate/Stay night's magecraft, where it can only work if it is scientifically possible in reality, although FAR less useful than that as there had to be a literal method that could be performed by humans here and it had to have matching scenarios completely.

I thought Battler was aware of many Fantasy scenes, like when Beatrice told Battler about the candy that Beatrice threw in the air, which did happen by magic. But would alter reality if he could explain a human method, and then turn into something that could be naturally done. Hence Beatrice would have to slowly prove she exists by doing low level magic and then going much higher.

Needless to say this series really confused the hell out of me on my first go through.

I like the theory hagaruma made though, that's pretty close to what I started thinking halfway into Umineko.

I still think Tohya being Meta-Battler after he was released from the game is the most simple and logical solution.

Am i the only one?

I thought this idea too when ep 8 came out as a way to help explain meta-world's existence+the ending scene at house Fukuin+there was a beautiful comic someone did on pixiv that followed this idea but the author idea/metaphors galore make a strong argument against.

If it was identical to the actual content it would be a major mindfuck. Personally I think this story would make a lot more sense if it was said straight out that no metaworld scenes exist in the messages and the forgeries alltogether. Unfortunately there are hints that metaworld scenes were actually narrated, and it makes all more complicated.

In the beginning (EP1) it seemed like the messages narrated stories from Maria's perspective and were written like a diary describing scenes in first person. But then it doesn't make any sense for her to write about the metaworld considering how rarely she shows up there.

I still can't find a certain explanation for what concern the 18 persons that were killed in the first two stories. It was hinted pretty well that they couldn't possibly have been written in a few days, so it would be incredibly strange if Ange wasn't there.

Somewhere along this same line, after EP6/7 (havent read 8 yet), I've been trying to correlate all the narrative elements of our Umineko to whatever was read bu humans in R-Prime. So you get things like
Meta-Battler = "intended audience?"
Lambdadelta = "editor who enables the books publication, keeps writer in check"?
Bernkastel = The INTERNET ?

It can be taken further - I think Erika's aggresive detective work is a result of the fandom's backlash against Battler being such a "go with teh flow" detective, interpreted as "The author has Battler being a lazy ass to keep us away from relevant information. A REAL detective would be duct-taping the vents and shit." Cue Erika.

Or, a simpler one - Meta Battler becoming Game Master equates to R-Prime Battler (Toya...?) finally either figuring the solution, or regaining his memories, thus he's qualified to write new stories because he knows the "rules and solution".

Getting to the point, I do wonder how the Blue / Red truth equates up into R-Prime. Like, when you go to buy your copy of 'Turn', is it literally printed as something like
"Rosa retrieved the two master keys from the envelope. Genji, Shannon, and Godha offered theirs as well, to help their standing in the eyes of Rosa, who took all five keys into Maria's purse.

The new Tip that was released recently is quite neat I have to say. At least I think it hasn't been translated already, so I decided to do so.
We actually get an answer for the mystery of the knock.
But be careful, it's something that shouldn't be read before EP8.

Spoiler for TIP Forgery No.XXX:

Umineko no naku koro ni
Forgery No.xxx
07th Expansion

“Uuh, Uuh! So many roses! So many rose! Uuh!!“
“Listen Maria, don't be so hasty, you'll fall!“
“Hey, Jessica-chan, Maria-chan! Let's hurry and say hello to grandfather and the others.“
“This rosegarden is so darn beautiful everytime I see't...ain't it?!“
“I liked it much better before the remodelling. You really have no sense of style at all, big brother.“
“You can't do anything else but complain, sister? Ouchouch! Not the ears, don't pull the ears!!“
“Hahaha“ “Hihihi“ “Kyahahah“

The family members, coming for the family conference, strolled around the rose garden, bickering like always.
But this year was slightly different from last year.
...because, after having been apart from the Ushiromiya household for six years, Battler had returned.

“It really has been a long time, but just as expected, the mansion and the garden are still huge...“
“Damn, after 6 years of no contact at all, the first thing you notice is how huge the sorrounding are?!“
“Hahaha, it's been pretty boring for you during those 6 years without Battler, eh, Jessica-chan?! But the area here is not the only thing that seems huge. Battler, you've grown quite a bit as well!“
“Maria doesn't grow at all, no?! I'm always the same size, uh....“
“That's alright. You will start growing quite soon, I think. That is, both upwards and forwards! Hihihihi!“
“??? Mama? Can someone grow forward?“
“Hey, Pervert Battler! Don't teach Maria such weird stuff!“
“Uwaaaah! Jessica's violent tendencies haven't changed either! Hihihihi!“

“Hey, let's go you brats! You can fool around later!“
“It's the first time they meet in 6 years. They are all pretty excited.“
“Now, everyone. I will lead you to the guesthouse. Please come along, this way...“
“Huh? What's up Battler? Is there something?“
After being called by Gohda, everyone headed towards the guesthouse. Only Battler continued to gaze at the rosegarden, calmly or maybe a little surprised...

“What's up, Battler-kun?“
“Sorry. Could you just go ahead?!“
“...Uuh? ... Battler, is something wrong?“
“I just want to feel the wind a little longer. ...Just a little.“
“What's up with you being so smug? Can't you do that as much as you want later?“
Until just now he had been carelessly fooling around with his cousins.
But now, all of a sudden, Battler's expression showed a slight hint of gloom.
His eyes did not reflect his cousins.
The only thing it reflected, was the sight of the rosepetals dancing through the rosegarden...or maybe even the grey sky at the horizon.

“...Okay. Well, let's go everyone.“

Rokkenjima after 6 years ... no, the house of Ushiromiya.
It was clear that Battler needed just a little more time to sort out his feelings.
George considered that and so he asked Maria and Jessica to accompany him ahead.
No matter what, it has been 6 years.
Just now they had been playing like they had returned to themselves 6 years ago...but no matter what, that was 6 years in the past.
After such a long time it was surely not just his height and features......it must have been his mind as well. He must have changed severely.
In that expression there surfaced something else than the Battler from 6 years ago who was just a child.
Jessica thought so as well.

Maria spurted ahead hastily when she was called by Rosa. George and Jessica followed her.
After that, the only thing left in the rosegarden, among the silently blowing wind was Battler's figure.

“…………………”

After he had made sure that all signs of the family members had vanished into the guesthouse...Battler relaxed a little, let the tension leave his shoulders and sighed shortly.

....Battler, Battler. ....Battler-kun, Battler-kun...?

Ushiromiya Battler.
That is something which is supposed to be my name. I have been called by it many times.
...that is obvious, because it is my name.
But I and the Ushiromiya Battler I know...I'm sad to admit, they are quite different.

It was then, when a forceful wind blew through the rosegarden.
In the blink of an eye the rosepetals scattered and danced about, revealing a fantastic scenery.
But......those dancing rosepetals, as if they were frozen in time, stopped moving in midair.
This was a parallel world, where only the wind blew.

“...Battler-sama, welcome back.“
“Ronove. ...you seem well. How long has it been since we last met?“
“After Land of the golden witch, I had the privilege to be at your side during Trinity of the golden witch. ......No, if we consider that Lady Bernkastel's gameboard is supposed to be the last...“
“....well. No matter how long it has been, we still just met, haven't we?!“

The different coloured rosepetals in the garden suddenly changed their colour...
All of them were suddenly of a beautiful gold.
This was no longer the rosegarden of the Ushiromiya family.
It was the place where golden roses bloom......the golden land.

“......Because I am here right now, it might imply......that I better play out my part as myself...right?“
“Well......how shall we proceed?“
“A piece has it's duty as a piece. Once it has been placed on the gameboard, as long as it is in the boundaries of the role given to him......it can run wild on the board to it's heart's content. That is, what it's about, right ...?“
“That is correct. And that you have been invited here once more, is in accordance to that meaing as well.“
“That means......that I can make me...do anything I like, just as I like. That's correct, isn't it?“
“That is quite correct. And therefore your role is,“
“To run as wild as I want.“
“Yes. ...Hahahahahahaha!“

Battler laughed.
But it was no delightful laughter.
It was a dry laugh, revealing his stance towards being summoned here without knowing what his purpose was......having just been burdened with such a dumbass job.

“It is my personal choice...whatever I do.”
“That is correct. Whatever you do or don't do. It is completely up to you. Though there is just one restriction.”
“'Don't ever bore us.'”
“...Pukuku. That is correct. Even I, Ronove, am overjoyed at being able to attend this time's game of joy and sorrow.”
“And I'm supposed to know what to do. ......Are you completely insane?! Hey, that's just like those variety shows where you suddenly call a young artist on stage and tell him to do something fun without any preparation.”
“Pukukuku. Now, now, that is quite a pleasent comparison...”

“......Well then. I will make them dance once again. ......I will swing the conductor's baton on this incomprehensible serial murder case. Everyone of you, .... I will raise the baton above my head, await it eagerly, I despise your diligent mannerism. ....HAHAHAHAHAHA...“
“What story might you spin this time? The preparations have all been done. ...Now, shall I lend you a hand with anything?“
“...............“
“Shall it be the letter announcing the murders handed in the rosegarden? Or maybe the preparation of the stage of the tragedy? Everyone is already eagerly awaiting the opening of your piece.“
“This time......with whom shall I start. .....no. ....How shall I kill them....?“

...”Ushiromiya Battler”.
No matter who might see this form, they will suspect nothing else than this.
Still, the expression he had was that of another person.
Was he really......Ushiromiya Battler?
He was a piece that had the same shape as Ushiromiya Battler...but it was a piece with a quite different role......

“No, that's not it. I don't want to see any killings. Not any corpses. ....What I really want to see is....that is really just that one instant. I want to witness that one instant. You know, Ronove?”
“...the most beatiful flicker is that one instant, right when a candle is blown out.”
“Yes. ...What I want to see is that most beautiful, most dreadful...... moment of scattering.”

Battler stood up as he said this, and while looking up at the dark, violet sky he spread his arms and screamed:

“I want it in front of George-Anikis eyes, when he cannot move! What colour might the tears be he is going to shed, when I am slowly strangling Shannon to death in front of his eyes? What colour might the blood that idiot father is going to bleed be, when I blow his head off in the moment he learns his son is the culprit? Aah, I want to see aunt Natsuhi's tears. I will smash Jessica to a bloody, sticky pulp and then I will pretend I would have just found her corpse. What face might aunt Natsuhi show and what tears might she shed while starting to run? With what kind of crumpled face might that beauty cry? I want to see...aaah, and I will cry along with her. And then I will press crying aunt Natsuhi to my chest, and will make her think I am crying along with her. ....and....with the face of the most horrible and worst humility, I will say without crying or laughing, aagh, ungh....uhuhu...ukukukuhahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!! Did you see that? That is the story you all want to see right?! Hahaha, I will show it to you! I will show you the greatest form of entertainment with an “Ushiromiya Battler who can be the culprit”, Hahahahyahahahaaa!!”

Battler roared towards the sky, no, towards a full house of spectators.
And his exclamation was accompanied by a roaring thunder, just like applause.

“Truly splendid. A story truly worth seeing. Well then, Battler-sama. What will tonight's game be? How will tonight's tragedy turn out? Well, who shall be killed first?!”
“The first thing I want to visit, is an overture. ...I have just arrived here. So before even doing an overture, we have to tune the instruments.“
“No matter how splendid the sound might be, an instrument has to be tuned. But, what shall happen in that state of tuning...“
“I want to try starting, by killing you.“

“Well, that is something I had not expected.”
“......in what way has the me on this gameboard been drawn. I want to finish testing that quick and easily. ...This me...was it really written in a way to be me? If it is not a me that satisfies me...I might discard this stage without doing anything at all.”
Battler said that while looking up at the heavens.
This time his face really was filled with laughter.

Ronove returned the tea-set back into a cloud of golden butterflies to clean up. Then he revealed his neck by slightly opening his collar.
“Well then, Battler-sama. ......Please use my humble body and test to your heart's content.“
“What music will I be able to play, when I break your fingers....one by one, by one. ...I wantr to hear it.“

Battler laughed sinisterly.
But in that laugh was neither something bizarre nor something demonic.
It was purity.
The purity of a child......filled with interest.

“Pukukuku....kuhahahahahaha....AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! “

Ronove laughed.
He often laughed in a prude, composed manner......but for him to laugh such an uncomposed huge laughter, that was a first for everybody.

“I understand, Battler-sama. Well then, play on my fingers, Battler-sama. ......That is, if you really are the person who is fit to taste my humble fingers...”
“Yes. I want to test this as well. ......If I was drawn in a way that I could be able to do something like that. I want to test it. If I might actually turn out to be drawn in a way that is not „Me“, smash me Ronove, tear me into pieces!! Only such a forgery would be forgiven!! Now test me as well, if this „Me“ that has been called forth again, is a forgery worthy of the biggest laughter...!! Now, Ronove, test it...let us both test it!! Haha...AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!“

“And now, you can never serve your black tea to anyone but me ever again, for all eternity...”

...Clap......Clapclap.

“......Who's there? Is that you Beato? ....If you decide on watching, at least admit you are doing so.“
“What a joke. ......if you were drawn to express yourself so joyfully, I might become your instrument as well.“
“...that might happen. ...after I heard it once, I will never forget your sound ever again. You were the most perfect violin. That sound, it was as if it was coming from heaven itself. ...but I can wait a little longer. Because it is something really, really important. ...because this is the one sound, that I have loved a long, long time and will love for all eternity.“
“...even if you put it like that...it's horrible. ...no, it's wonderful. Ronove has not one wound at all.“
“Hey, Beato. ....Look at me.“
“I am.“
“Am I „Me“...?“

This was when Battler completely turned around.
On that face, showing an inhuman smile...there was a single rosepetal.
It was a red petal, in this golden land where only golden roses are supposed to bloom.

“...Hmm, I verify it. ...You are “You”. ...I am so happy to be able to meet you again. ...And through meeting you, being able to become stronger, more beautiful....and more dreadful.”
“With every forgery that is written. ......And with each story that is spun around Ushiromiya Battler being the culprit...the existence called “I” am growing in power.”
“That is truly horrible......what might those spectators who are longing for you expect from us?”
“...isn't that quite obvious? It is something that is the same for me and for you.”
“You might be right. It's the same for me and you.”

“'Never bore us! Kihyahyahahahahaha!!!'”

Their laughter was answered by a huge roaring thunder, which became the applause of the spectators.
...somehow he and they seemed to have taken a liking to this forgery.

It happened suddenly.
It started to rain in the rosegarden.
It happened earlier than ever before.
It was even earlier than that time when Maria starts crying for a rose that went missing.
The roses weren't golden anymore.
Suddenly we had returned to the rosegarden of the Ushiromiya's with it's many colours.
There, in the rainy rosegarden, Battler stood alone, stock still, looking at the sky.

“......Battler-sama. If you keep standing there you will catch a cold.”
“Yo. Kanon-kun, right?! ....it's been a while.”
“........ ......is that so? So this is your plan for tonight's nightmare?!”
“Don't look at me like that. Even you want to see it. ...How Miss Jessica is reduced to tears, both body and soul. You want to hear her say, that it doesn't matter what happens to her, as long as Kanon-kun is set free.....don't you want to see your fingers getting cut off again?”
“....You devil! ....Who in heaven's name called someone like you here?!”
“It was the unstoppably huge number of spectators who expect to see me as the culprit and those nameless conductors who bestow that dream upon me.“
“............“
“Listen. Let's go, Kanon-kun. Or else you'll catch a cold.“
“.....yes.“
“And don't forget this.“
“......I will take care of it.“
“Tonight, when the grandfather clock in the grand hall strikes midnight, you will deliver this to the family members in the dining room. You will tell them, that there was a knock at the door of the servant's room ...... and when you stepped out into the corridor this was lying on the floor.“
“....I understand.“

Again a roaring thunder. The pitchblack sky blinked violently.
Among the still falling rain, Battler once again spread his arms laughing and looked at the sky.
Still, the eternal catbox truly was in his hands. Still, the recurring nightmare was as he imagined it.
Yet still, the fantasies of the people of the future would never deplete. There would never be boredom.
And this is why......

“Well, and so the game begins once again tonight....!“

This is why this is the torture that will torment „you“ for all eternity.

It's nice how Ryûkishi can't stop writing in the Beatrice persona...well I imagine it must be fun. But he's right...he really did put an eternal torture on us.

Looking through the TIPS index on umineco.info, I realized that a couple of other new ones slipped under my radar. Did anybody ever translate "Jessica and the Electric Murder Fan" or "Rokkenjima Investigation File"?

__________________

"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

At some point you would figure there'd be a more interesting solution to things than "lol someone lied." I mean hell, if you want I can write a mystery where every interesting thing that happens was actually just lied about, but it'd kinda make me an asshole.

At some point you would figure there'd be a more interesting solution to things than "lol someone lied." I mean hell, if you want I can write a mystery where every interesting thing that happens was actually just lied about, but it'd kinda make me an asshole.

Well, it's not really unfair if you hint at it properly, but that is an endless discussion that has been fought countless times in the context of Umineko...

But it's not even that much if you think about it and consider the reason each person lied...it's a constant theme of Umineko after all, so it's bound to appear more often.
In the end lying is the basis of every impossible crime situation. Be it the culprit lying actively or witnesses/suspects lying to protect themselves and involutarily helping with the creation of the illusion. But "a lie being the only component of a crime" did not happen THAT often in Umineko.
We had the chained locked-room in EP1. Well okay, probably all of EP4. The knock at the door in EP5. But apart from that there is nothing that is basically only constructed by a lie, even though of course somebody lying is a part of the solution.

Again with the infamous "Land".
God fucking dammit. Stop teasing so much with it R07.

Anyway, just to clarify something, this TIP takes place before "Twilight," right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

We had the chained locked-room in EP1. Well okay, probably all of EP4. The knock at the door in EP5. But apart from that there is nothing that is basically only constructed by a lie, even though of course somebody lying is a part of the solution.

Actually, every murder involves a huge lie. Shkanon? Genji and Co. cooperating? Not to mention Shannon's and Kanon's deaths - especially when they are mentioned in Red.

Lies, damn lies and forgeries.

__________________

"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

Again with the infamous "Land".
God fucking dammit. Stop teasing so much with it R07.

Anyway, just to clarify something, this TIP takes place before "Twilight," right?

Considering how Ronove talks about Lady Bernkastel's game being considered the last of them, but having last seen Battler during Trinity (I would like to see how that would have turned out...all three women except Natsuhi becoming witches?!), I would assume that the games do not necessarily exist in a temporal order but happen however you view them.

Also, if you consider the fact that it says that the torment will continue for all eternity, I think that it implies that while the people in Ange/Yukari's 1998 might be gone, the Meta-Battler and Meta-Beato as well as all the others of course live on as long as we continue thinking about those theories...
So I think it can be seen as a parallel ending to Twilight.
It's similar to Saikoroshi-hen in Higurashi Rei where...

Spoiler for Saikoroshi-hen:

Rika decides to continue living as Furude Rika, also being told by her friends that this is her duty as a human. At the same time I always considered that her witch persona "Bernkastel" lived on and continued to watch those worlds from that "higher plane" that Hanyû described.

If we considered Lady Bernkastel as that character in Umineko, it would explain why she has such a hatred for being discarded to the Meta-World. She can't do anything but watch the events of some worlds, because she became a "bodyless concept"

We had the chained locked-room in EP1. Well okay, probably all of EP4. The knock at the door in EP5. But apart from that there is nothing that is basically only constructed by a lie, even though of course somebody lying is a part of the solution.

Shannon's presence in the shed in ep1 is constructed solely by a lie.

According to Will, the chain-locked room of ep1 is constructed by a lie.

Kanon's death in ep1 is a lie.

Most of ep3 is presumably genuine, at least in the sense that something other than a lie holds the puzzles together.

The door to the chapel in ep2 may have been locked solely because someone said it was.

As you said, essentially all of ep4 except the shed murders is basically a lie, or at least Battler has no means of distinguishing whether that is so.

The knock in ep5 is (apparently) a lie.

The solution to the Logic Error is predicated on misinformation, which is like a lie.

So while, yes, a number of the scenarios were constructed through actual creation of a physical mystery or use of sleight of hand, or a construct embellished into a mystery through lies, a goodly number of the mysteries were made to seem important or complicated, and the solution is simply that they didn't happen at all except in someone's lies. They may as well not even have talked about those in the meta-world, as the whole thing could've been dispensed with using Battler's ep3 garden battle logic: "That shit didn't happen."