3sigma

Allowing yourself to believe that an unvalidated feeling, idea or situation is true is self-deception. If your first thought on reading the title of this thread was, “Why should I?” then please explain why you would rather live your life constantly deceiving yourself than accepting reality. I think I know the answer to that, but this thread is for those theists who would rather be intellectually honest.

The first thing we need to do is determine exactly what it is you believe in so please provide a factual description of your God’s characteristics and abilities so that we can be sure that we will know it when we see it. Try to be as specific as possible to avoid ambiguity. We need to be able to differentiate your God from other phenomena. So, for example, claiming that your God is love or the universe or is all around us is not helpful in the least. Claiming that your God is supernatural or beyond the natural, observable universe is also not helpful. If your God is beyond the observable universe then how could you possibly have observed it to conclude that it is real? So again, please provide a factual description of your God’s specific characteristics and abilities.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God then please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is real. I’m assuming that no intellectually honest person would use unsound evidence or unsound arguments to reach a conclusion. Try to avoid using misapprehensions, fallacies or misrepresentations as evidence or arguments. Bare assertions or assumptions are not useful. Please provide evidence and arguments that can be tested and verified and that unambiguously establish your God as the only explanation.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God or any sound evidence or sound arguments to support your belief then please explain what distinguishes your belief from imagination. Imagination is forming a mental image of something not present to the senses. Something imaginary exists only in imagination; it lacks factual reality. Subjective notions such as internal personal experiences or feelings are indistinguishable from imagination. If you couldn’t turn to people next to you and ask, “Did you see/hear/smell/feel that?” and expect them to say, “Yes” then whatever it is you experienced was likely imaginary. You need to provide something objective that we could all perceive to detect your God and verify that it is real. We need to distinguish objective reality from a subjective reality in which people believe things are as they want or imagine them to be rather than as they are.

Now, if you have provided a factual description of your God or sound evidence and sound arguments to prove that it is real then you have established the truth or validity of your belief. Otherwise, it is more likely you are simply deceiving yourself.

3sigma, I don't dance to your tune and your thread doesn't interest me. Stop nagging. I have discussed my faith in many theads and don't feel the need to do so for every new atheist that starts posting on the forum.

3sigma

3sigma, I don't dance to your tune and your thread doesn't interest me. Stop nagging. I have discussed my faith in many theads and don't feel the need to do so for every new atheist that starts posting on the forum.

Let me get this straight. You started a thread in Science about how we validate beliefs. You asked at what point we should consider someone foolish if they don’t reach a certain percentage validation. You claim your belief in your God is 100% validated, but a thread that asks you to show that your belief is validated doesn’t interest you? Why the reluctance to demonstrate your claim? Why the constant evasion?

Instead of actually responding to my OP in this thread, you evade my request with bluster, boredom, a complaint that I’m nagging you and indignation that you should be asked to explain yourself to a mere new arrival. Sadly, this is the sort of behaviour I’ve come to expect from religious believers whenever they are asked to validate their beliefs. I was hoping at least one intellectually honest theist might respond to this thread, but perhaps there are none.

I think my record of responding to questions is pretty bloody good. I have no obligation to respond to every thread that seeks theist contribution, and I certainly don't have the time.

It has nothing to do with "my way or the highway", I don't stamp my feet and cry foul if nobody responds to my threads. It'd be a different story if I join a thread with an opinion and then ignore follow up posts - but I don't do that and that isn't the case here either.

I am sure the thread I stared will evolve to the point where most of the questions you ask will be addressed. I see it as a major thread, and one I have been sort of building up to for a while.

I think my record of responding to questions is pretty bloody good. I have no obligation to respond to every thread that seeks theist contribution, and I certainly don't have the time.

It has nothing to do with "my way or the highway", I don't stamp my feet and cry foul if nobody responds to my threads. It'd be a different story if I join a thread with an opinion and then ignore follow up posts - but I don't do that and that isn't the case here either.

Yet you start threads expecting answers from atheists and say you are leaving for days and expect us to respond to your questions we've answered literally tens or hundreds of time before.

I think my record of responding to questions is pretty bloody good. I have no obligation to respond to every thread that seeks theist contribution, and I certainly don't have the time.

This is true. But, then, why respond at all? Seems counter-productive if you have no intention of answering any of the OP's questions.

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It has nothing to do with "my way or the highway",

Apparently, it does.

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I don't stamp my feet and cry foul if nobody responds to my threads. It'd be a different story if I join a thread with an opinion and then ignore follow up posts - but I don't do that and that isn't the case here either.

Actually, again, it is when you make a comment about how you're not participating in a topic questioning your beliefs. Why respond at all?

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I am sure the thread I stared will evolve to the point where most of the questions you ask will be addressed. I see it as a major thread, and one I have been sort of building up to for a while.

Keep an eye on that one. Or don't.

Trollish behavior. Things done your way, and no other.

-Nam

« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 08:45:49 PM by Nam »

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Things I've said here:

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I only have a filter for people who do not consistently beg to be belittled, ridiculed, insulted, and demeaned.

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I may believe people, as a whole, should be treated fairly but I also believe those same people are idiots.

Yet you start threads expecting answers from atheists and say you are leaving for days and expect us to respond to your questions we've answered literally tens or hundreds of time before.

But if nobody responded, that's fine. In fact, I encourage you not to respond to any of my posts. You're not very thoughtful, probably because you have a response written before the post arrives, like a dickhead.

Allowing yourself to believe that an unvalidated feeling, idea or situation is true is self-deception. If your first thought on reading the title of this thread was, “Why should I?” then please explain why you would rather live your life constantly deceiving yourself than accepting reality. I think I know the answer to that, but this thread is for those theists who would rather be intellectually honest.

The first thing we need to do is determine exactly what it is you believe in so please provide a factual description of your God’s characteristics and abilities so that we can be sure that we will know it when we see it. Try to be as specific as possible to avoid ambiguity. We need to be able to differentiate your God from other phenomena. So, for example, claiming that your God is love or the universe or is all around us is not helpful in the least. Claiming that your God is supernatural or beyond the natural, observable universe is also not helpful. If your God is beyond the observable universe then how could you possibly have observed it to conclude that it is real? So again, please provide a factual description of your God’s specific characteristics and abilities.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God then please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is real. I’m assuming that no intellectually honest person would use unsound evidence or unsound arguments to reach a conclusion. Try to avoid using misapprehensions, fallacies or misrepresentations as evidence or arguments. Bare assertions or assumptions are not useful. Please provide evidence and arguments that can be tested and verified and that unambiguously establish your God as the only explanation.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God or any sound evidence or sound arguments to support your belief then please explain what distinguishes your belief from imagination. Imagination is forming a mental image of something not present to the senses. Something imaginary exists only in imagination; it lacks factual reality. Subjective notions such as internal personal experiences or feelings are indistinguishable from imagination. If you couldn’t turn to people next to you and ask, “Did you see/hear/smell/feel that?” and expect them to say, “Yes” then whatever it is you experienced was likely imaginary. You need to provide something objective that we could all perceive to detect your God and verify that it is real. We need to distinguish objective reality from a subjective reality in which people believe things are as they want or imagine them to be rather than as they are.

Now, if you have provided a factual description of your God or sound evidence and sound arguments to prove that it is real then you have established the truth or validity of your belief. Otherwise, it is more likely you are simply deceiving yourself.

Let me answer this from my previously evangelical perspective, that I have a hard time divesting myself off completely.

If you asked me these questions about 2 -3 years ago, I'd say that from a Christian perspective, God is a being who is beyond human understanding, and so cannot be explained or comprehended by humanity completely. What can be known about God is revealed in the Bible. Namely, that God cannot sin, cannot lie, God is good, etc... Also, the Bible (at least the NT) says that without faith, it is impossible to please God, implying that God expects faith and therefore, will not be provable in a scientific sense, since science is not faith, but knowledge based.

How does a Christian know that God is real? Well, they believe he is. There are some hints to his existence. For example, the abundance of life forms on our planet, the mathematical precision of the observed natural order of the universe, etc.... Granted, Lawrence Kraus has an explanation, but he has a Phd in Physics and his explanation requires a lot of thinking for most people, and it's easier to take an easier explanation that feels right.

And, don't forget the fear factor of Christianity. Christian God had to kill his own son for the sins of the world. While not much can be known about this God, it's clear that you don't want to get on his wrath. So, while not completely understanding this God, it's better to be safe than sorry. Do you want to risk your eternity in hell? If there is no God, a Christian loses very little (talking about a modern, evangelical Christian, not about a 15th century monk). But if there is a God, then atheist loses everything.

I think that most evangelicals would agree with the above explanations. I'm a realatively new ex Christian but the rest of my family is very religious (my dad is a pastor of a Baptist church and I know he would agree with the above).

The first thing we need (is to) please provide a factual description of your God’s characteristics and abilities so that we can be sure that we will know it when we see it......If you cannot provide a factual description of your God then please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is real......If you cannot provide a factual description of your God or any sound evidence or sound arguments to support your belief then please explain what distinguishes your belief from imagination......

Which I would follow by saying: if you haven't managed to acheive any one of those things, why should I or anyone else give a toss what you believe to be true?

Let me answer this from my previously evangelical perspective, that I have a hard time divesting myself off completely.

If you asked me these questions about 2 -3 years ago, I'd say that from a Christian perspective, God is a being who is beyond human understanding, and so cannot be explained or comprehended by humanity completely. What can be known about God is revealed in the Bible. Namely, that God cannot sin, cannot lie, God is good, etc... Also, the Bible (at least the NT) says that without faith, it is impossible to please God, implying that God expects faith and therefore, will not be provable in a scientific sense, since science is not faith, but knowledge based.

* If he can't be comprehended by humanity, how can he be perceived?* biblegod is *anything* but "good." He's a petty, vindictive, genocidal, warmonger. Look at Job or Jeptha.* I disagree that "you can't prove god sicentifically" follows from "faith pleases god."

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How does a Christian know that God is real? Well, they believe he is. There are some hints to his existence. For example, the abundance of life forms on our planet, the mathematical precision of the observed natural order of the universe, etc.... Granted, Lawrence Kraus has an explanation, but he has a Phd in Physics and his explanation requires a lot of thinking for most people, and it's easier to take an easier explanation that feels right.

how are these hints that the Xian god exists?

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And, don't forget the fear factor of Christianity. Christian God had to kill his own son for the sins of the world. While not much can be known about this God, it's clear that you don't want to get on his wrath. So, while not completely understanding this God, it's better to be safe than sorry. Do you want to risk your eternity in hell? If there is no God, a Christian loses very little (talking about a modern, evangelical Christian, not about a 15th century monk). But if there is a God, then atheist loses everything.

Pascal's Wager. It's a crappy argument. (and I thought god was "good"--why create eternal torment at all? How about a punishment that fits the crime??)

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I think that most evangelicals would agree with the above explanations. I'm a realatively new ex Christian but the rest of my family is very religious (my dad is a pastor of a Baptist church and I know he would agree with the above).

I'm sorry. Really. Because the above is a loaded diaper. No offense to you, of course! I,, for one, thank you for your input!

Logged

Organized religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash the kneecaps of anyone who doesn't show proper deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

Allowing yourself to believe that an unvalidated feeling, idea or situation is true is self-deception. If your first thought on reading the title of this thread was, “Why should I?” then please explain why you would rather live your life constantly deceiving yourself than accepting reality. I think I know the answer to that, but this thread is for those theists who would rather be intellectually honest.

The first thing we need to do is determine exactly what it is you believe in so please provide a factual description of your God’s characteristics and abilities so that we can be sure that we will know it when we see it. Try to be as specific as possible to avoid ambiguity. We need to be able to differentiate your God from other phenomena. So, for example, claiming that your God is love or the universe or is all around us is not helpful in the least. Claiming that your God is supernatural or beyond the natural, observable universe is also not helpful. If your God is beyond the observable universe then how could you possibly have observed it to conclude that it is real? So again, please provide a factual description of your God’s specific characteristics and abilities.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God then please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is real. I’m assuming that no intellectually honest person would use unsound evidence or unsound arguments to reach a conclusion. Try to avoid using misapprehensions, fallacies or misrepresentations as evidence or arguments. Bare assertions or assumptions are not useful. Please provide evidence and arguments that can be tested and verified and that unambiguously establish your God as the only explanation.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God or any sound evidence or sound arguments to support your belief then please explain what distinguishes your belief from imagination. Imagination is forming a mental image of something not present to the senses. Something imaginary exists only in imagination; it lacks factual reality. Subjective notions such as internal personal experiences or feelings are indistinguishable from imagination. If you couldn’t turn to people next to you and ask, “Did you see/hear/smell/feel that?” and expect them to say, “Yes” then whatever it is you experienced was likely imaginary. You need to provide something objective that we could all perceive to detect your God and verify that it is real. We need to distinguish objective reality from a subjective reality in which people believe things are as they want or imagine them to be rather than as they are.

Now, if you have provided a factual description of your God or sound evidence and sound arguments to prove that it is real then you have established the truth or validity of your belief. Otherwise, it is more likely you are simply deceiving yourself.

Logged

3sigma

Why is there so much evasion from religious believers? Are you going to attempt to answer the OP? Can you validate your belief in your God? Is your God real or imaginary? I suspect neither you nor any other religious believer will make any attempt to answer the OP. Why is that?

By the way, it isn’t anger. It began as bemusement. I am fascinated by the questions of why and how religious believers allow themselves to believe something that hasn’t a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to support it. I think insecurity is the answer to why and gullibility is the answer to how.

However, that bemusement changes to disgust and contempt when I read the news each day and see the intolerance, violence, misery and death caused by people around the world acting on or motivated by their childish religious beliefs.