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00:45:41 p_l: separate processes seems like it would be very expensive unless your devices seldom had to synchronize (or weren't running off a common clock to begin with)
00:47:09 hefner: klh10 used this to implement add-on hw
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00:47:24 i.e. the stuff that ran on one board was in one process
00:47:37 *hefner* is accustomed to thinking of machines that had non-trivial add-on hardware :)
00:47:44 is not, rather
00:48:29 well, it was emulating PDP-10
00:48:55 mostly facetiously, I did wonder how well it would work to do my sound, video, and CPU in separate threads
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00:51:10 (or how poorly)
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00:51:49 well, depends on the kind of hw you want to emulate
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00:54:33 hi all. is there a lisp interpreter that doesn't throw an error on undefined functions, but instead simply doesn't evaluate the function? that is to say, for some undefined function F, the code (F 1 2) would just return (F 1 2) rather than an error
00:55:42 hdon: why don't you handle the condition and have it ignore undefined function errors? That's what the condition system is for.
00:56:27 hdon: It doesn't seem like a good idea to pretend that the code works when it doesn't.
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00:57:05 yeah, sounds like a fun semantics when debugging misbehavior... :)
00:57:45 please don't misunderstand: my target application is very unconventinoal
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00:58:01 anyhow i found an option in drscheme to "expand not evaluate" functions, that sounds like it might be it
00:58:23 hdon: this channel isn't for scheme. Go to #scheme for that.
00:58:39 sorry
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00:58:43 no problem :)
00:59:00 *sykopomp* hopes he didn't come off too nasty.
01:02:18 i've a question concerning deftype. But if I set the element type for an array to this type (cmucl) i get "the variable FIXNUM is unbound."
01:02:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
01:03:46 the deftype was: (DEFTYPE EXTENDED-FIXNUM ()
01:03:46 `(OR ,FIXNUM (MEMBER ,NULL ,NA ,INFINITY ,-INFINITY)))
01:04:17 the array instantiation was simply: (make-array 1 :element-type 'extended-fixnum)
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01:16:01 *martian* waves desparately hands to get heard
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01:22:52 !!
01:22:55 get back here martian
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01:30:01 but that's retarder
01:30:05 oh, sorry
01:30:09 i mean, pointless
01:30:24 EXTENDED-FIXNUM couldn't be boxed
01:30:29 uh
01:30:30 unboxed
01:30:38 weirdo: he/she left.
01:30:38 i really need to sleep right nao. you get the picture
01:30:59 i know... and i need to sleep nao since i don't make any sense at all
01:31:29 good night, weirdo :)
01:31:37 thanks, bye :)
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02:12:03 reduce is essentially like the "foldl" function, right? with :from-end t making it foldr?
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02:19:43 jli: Depends on what FOLDL and FOLDR are ?
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02:21:28 schme, they aren't Lisp functions. I believe they're functions in Haskell and Erlang, and other functional languages
02:22:30 jli: Yes it is something like erlang's foldl.
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02:25:40 oh ya and with the foldr being the :frem-ond
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02:26:46 okay, neat.
02:26:53 thanks
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02:35:30 what's up with Kaz vs. Harrop on c.l.l? they married?
02:35:43 Thumper_: was it you who was controling linuxsampler via lisp?
02:36:04 egn: negative
02:36:18 Thumper_: k. my bad
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02:42:22 drewc: !!!
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02:46:41 *schme* googles linuxsampler
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02:47:44 Hey that looks good. I need to bookmark me some of that.
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02:48:08 yeah, it seems pretty cool, drewc said he was "controlling it via lisp" which sounded interesting
02:48:17 and I want some details
02:48:39 Hmmm.. Yes, I'd love some details on that too.
02:48:54 I imagine latency issues :)
02:49:27 hm, yeah dunno
02:49:27 But I am just guessing.. it seems other stuff used to control stuff factors bits out to C/C++ to avoid madness.
02:50:00 It looks very nice though. I totally need to check this out.
02:50:19 def
02:50:48 I'm trying to be able to randomize the displacement of samples in some sort of "song" structure (like the rest of the programming/music world)
02:51:22 Hmmm.. not quite following you there :)
02:52:23 like, say I've got samples a, b, c, d. I could say for beats 1 through 8, choose from a, b, c, d randomly -> music
02:53:12 ok.
02:53:18 that really is the problem though.
02:53:36 ?
02:53:41 It seems, to me atleast, a bitch to do that in just good ol' lisp.
02:53:54 'cause maybe you are busy GC-ing, and you get mad latency.
02:54:11 yeah, for sure. I was thinking of popping out a .midi file
02:54:18 and then just using that and not worrying about latency
02:54:21 oh ok.
02:54:31 not sure yet
02:54:34 common music
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02:54:48 though it is scheme.
02:54:52 yeah
02:55:11 I looked into it, I couldn't find very many docs
02:55:14 or you hook up with one of the old versions that actually is lisp, but lacks the real timeish stuff :)
02:55:18 oh ok.
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02:55:38 real time stuff would be bad ass...
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02:55:53 I'll see what drewc has to say
02:56:01 But generating a midi file isn't too much of a hassle anyway :)
02:56:16 Yaaa.
02:56:21 *schme* is waiting for the RT lisp.
02:56:23 have you done it? or are you just speculating
02:56:36 so I can hook the bastard up with sbcl.
02:57:02 I haven't generated midi files in lisp, no. But I have generated a lot of midi files in C :)
02:57:28 have you? maybe you could help me, I found this "midi file writing" library for CL
02:57:30 with literally 0 docs
02:57:43 emailed the devs, seems to be abandonded
02:57:53 do you have a simple C example somewhere?
02:58:11 eeeer.
02:58:15 heh
02:58:34 No, I do not have such a thing. With *have* generated I meant like 10 years ago :)
02:58:40 ah
02:58:45 but the specs are not so complicated.
02:58:48 alright
02:58:57 Hmm..
02:59:00 I should look into that.
02:59:07 That's a good idea for a lisp library anyway.
02:59:17 http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/isms/lisp/midi/ is what I was looking at
02:59:56 June '07. I guess that's not terribly old
03:00:40 *schme* looks
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03:01:06 Hello. So, I've been asked for a table-ish comparison of common lisp and other programming languages.
03:01:15 Does that sort of thing exist anywhere?
03:02:09 Hmmm.. no idea there, mogunus
03:03:00 egn: Personally I think I will go with common music and explore that 'til I figure out how they do the RT stuff so I can port it for midi and jack sbcl goodness :)
03:03:25 I never quite understood language comparision. :S
03:03:45 I think the request is totally irrational.
03:03:48 schme: do they do RT stuff?
03:03:49 mogunus: That would be a very large table. And would mostly contain uninteresting stuff.
03:04:23 egn: Yes. It does. But all that stuff is factored out into C++, to keep it rt-ish :)
03:04:34 ah :/
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03:06:08 mogunus: I can imagine entries such as "Standard function for reducing over a list accepts a :from-end keyword parameter" Lisp: yes, Scheme: N.A. C: N.A. ...
03:06:18 heehee
03:06:24 just give them the hyperspec
03:06:38 with little add ons to each section
03:06:46 egn: It is my main beef with lisps at the moment, the audiowork issues :)
03:07:07 schme: I have said for years that we need a real-time GC.
03:07:19 schme: I think I know how to write one, but I don't have the time.
03:07:31 beach: I seem to remember you nudging me towards that just some day ago.
03:07:42 mogunus: ...what are you doing a table comparison for? :|
03:08:03 sykopomp, the guys who wanted me to build them a web app decided that they don't want it in lisp
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03:08:28 mogunus: -after- you wrote the whole thing?
03:08:29 sykopomp, and then they decided that they might want it in lisp if I give them an exhaustive comparion of lisp and "every other major computer programming language"
03:08:35 beach: I tried googling real time GC to see how one would acquire the skills to implement it.. did not find anything good at all. I would appreciate any pointers at what to look for, to see if I can break sbcl real bad :)
03:08:39 sykopomp, after I wrote a limited prototype
03:08:52 sykopomp, which they *really liked*
03:08:52 mogunus: were you using cl-who?
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03:09:09 schme: start by reading http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471941484/ref=s9sdps_c2_14_at1-rfc_g1_si1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0CGNF3W33RD883PJZ2FR&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463383371&pf_rd_i=507846
03:09:14 sykopomp, and then I explained that it was in lisp when I talked to their UI person (css, frontend design, etc)
03:09:16 every othe major language. lovely mogunus :)
03:09:20 mogunus: If I were you, I'd point them in the direction of one of PG's essays, probably the one where he talks about his experience with viaweb
03:09:29 egn, yes, I was. it was fun times. I <3 cl-who
03:09:37 mogunus: PG might be a devil-horned heathen, but his essays are nice marketing.
03:09:39 mogunus: nice, yeah I'm just getting into it
03:09:42 sykopomp, HAH. That is exactly what I was thinking. Let the evangelist do it for me.
03:09:48 slava: Hey slava! I will try to copy paste those 3 lines of url :)
03:09:54 schme: Plus, it might be necessary to change the Lisp system, in case it uses things like conservative stack scanning.
03:10:10 beach: Well.. what fun that sounds like :)
03:10:33 seems I need to reduce my sleeping by a few hours / day.
03:10:38 mogunus: Other than that, I would use Peter Norvig's list of 'things I like about lisp'
03:10:51 sykopomp, ooo, good call
03:10:56 schme: incremental mark-copy collection: http://www.cs.umass.edu/~emery/pubs/04-15.pdf
03:11:25 schme: incremental compaction: #
03:11:25 #
03:11:27 oops sorry
03:11:34 schme: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1134023
03:11:39 mogunus: I think a table kind of misses a lot of good points, and tables tend to try to act objective, when all they're really doing is adjusting things in the presenter's favor
03:11:41 asch.. they don't have 'em at the bookstore where I normally order books :(
03:11:52 (as in the example of Microsoft's little anti-Red Hat campaign)
03:11:53 schme: parallel mark-copy: http://research.sun.com/jtech/pubs/04-g1-paper-ismm.pdf
03:11:59 schme: that should keep you busy for a year or so :-)
03:12:23 lovely.
03:12:28 I need something to do at work anyway.
03:12:29 hehehe
03:12:31 once you've implemented a concurrent/parallel gc, you can start worrying about making it real time
03:12:51 right, near-real-time is probably good enough.
03:13:03 schme: oh, how could I forget: http://domino.research.ibm.com/comm/research_projects.nsf/pages/metronome.metronomegc.html
03:13:03 Well of course. real timeish is good enough.
03:13:10 -!- benny` is now known as benny
03:13:11 I will not get real time running on top of linux anyway.
03:13:14 sykopomp, sigh. tell me about it.
03:13:23 schme: sadly this type of stuff is hard to find with google unless you know what to google for :-)
03:13:23 mogunus: http://norvig.com/Lisp-retro.html Here's the list of things
03:13:28 sykopomp, it's like they *want* to be marketed to in a disingenuous way
03:13:31 slava: I noticed!
03:13:39 heck, it goes ahead and adds a bit of comparison with java and python
03:14:15 Anyway...
03:14:29 THanks for the help. I'm going to go back to "being at a SF convention"
03:14:34 peace #lisp
03:14:38 mogunus: hold on
03:14:51 sykopomp, ?
03:14:55 mogunus: that page also has a table with language speeds. Just to note that. It might be helpful ;#
03:14:57 ;)
03:14:59 slava: I will just wait for factor to have all this niceness :P
03:15:01 are you at arisia?!
03:15:04 sykopomp, heh. I will. see you!
03:15:08 sykopomp, yes, yes I am
03:15:13 damn you. Stallman's talking there >:(
03:15:19 I know! I saw him!
03:15:22 He's... crazy.
03:15:24 hahaha
03:15:29 alright, I'll see you around.
03:15:30 schme: give me five guys and a million dollars
03:15:31 Have fun :)
03:15:38 I will :-)
03:15:44 schme: i just read the papers, i don't implement this stuff :)
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03:15:55 schme: concurrent gc is hard
03:16:18 slava: You can have.. a carrot stick, and two PS1 games ?
03:16:30 I bet.
03:16:45 There is just too many projects.
03:16:47 meh, hate when I'm programming in C# and I hate Emacs commands in Visual Studio
03:16:47 schme: for parallel and concurrent gc, java is the only choice
03:17:00 schme: ghc has been getting some work done in that direction, but it hasn't settled down yet
03:17:12 well who needs parallel and concurrent gc ? :)
03:17:12 Actually, I hate when I'm programming in C#, period.
03:17:27 schme: probably video game companies. Hm.
03:17:34 nihw
03:17:37 Right even.
03:17:39 schme: stuff that needs fast response times, and/or huge heaps
03:17:41 or simulation people, too.
03:17:57 Yeees.. fastish response time is what one needs.
03:18:03 How troublesome.
03:18:11 schme: operating system implementers as well.
03:18:12 so yeah, video games, or on the opposite end of the scale, if you have a 8gb data set and 30 second GC pauses are unacceptable
03:18:38 right.
03:18:53 30 second GC pause seems madness anyway :)
03:18:59 well, time to get this patched into sbcl, then!
03:19:09 Indeed.
03:19:20 sounds like a nice weekend project
03:19:24 (haha)
03:19:40 I have no coffee.
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03:19:49 I have no life.
03:19:52 schme: you could start by changing sbcl to use mark sweep for the old generation
03:19:56 And also, believe it or not, I have other projects ;)
03:19:59 which would reduce memory usage by almost half
03:20:23 slava: How would reduceing memory usage do me any good ?
03:20:45 Just curious here.
03:20:55 schme: not swapping like a mofo would probably be nice.
03:21:03 But I am not swapping.
03:21:07 or, it would let you double heap size for the same amount of ram, leading to less frequent collections
03:21:17 hmmm...
03:21:24 so given a fixed amount of ram, mark-sweep has higher throughput than copying
03:21:27 Well I guess it makes sense either way.
03:22:02 Right ok.
03:22:47 I'm thinking: code gets called, sbcl is busy GC-ing so it is delayed, stuff gets really bad :)
03:22:55 That there idea seems just to reduce the chance.
03:22:59 hmmm.
03:23:41 metronome gc guarantees cpu time to the program but it would be hard to retrofit onto an existing system
03:23:51 IBM's J9 VM has it
03:24:24 I'll just order that there book next month and see what happens.
03:24:31 Ya..
03:24:38 slava: so metronome gc is about as good as realtime, or am I misunderstanding?
03:24:51 which is why I'm recruiting sykopomp to write me a new CL from scratch.
03:25:08 sykopomp: it is hard real time if the programmer makes some guarantees about allocation rate, otherwise it is "soft" real time (good enough for audio and such)
03:25:24 I won't be getting hard real time on top of linux anyway.
03:25:30 schme: Hah.
03:25:41 As long as I can have my guaranteed 1ms
03:25:48 then I guess I will live.
03:26:07 meh. 1ms sounds good enough for most applications I can think of -- to be completely honest.
03:26:09 hey that actually does make it hard.
03:26:19 hmmm?
03:26:33 I can think of applications where 1ms is not good enough :)
03:26:43 yeah?
03:26:46 sure.
03:26:53 You come to the place I work and see the machines go.
03:26:59 sykopomp: the fancier gc's are only needed in pretty specialized domains
03:27:03 1ms extra will result in shit being totally not usable.
03:27:18 CNC stuffs going on and on
03:27:24 and odd precision stuff.
03:27:30 sykopomp: for typical tasks, even a music player, you can use an incremental gc that doesn't guarantee latency, just collects the heap in chunks
03:27:35 'course there is no GC anywhere near this ;)
03:28:02 slava: I'm thinking for applications like operating systems or something resource-heavy like graphics apps or high-end video games.
03:28:08 music player can stand real crazy latency.
03:28:20 But for audiowork I mean.. it's bad.
03:28:21 yeah, just add a big buffer :-)
03:28:27 I don't really know how fancy a GC you would need for things like that
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03:28:31 schme: I think 1ms is not required.
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03:28:45 My silly internal audiocard is giving me 4ms, and that is very noticeable.
03:28:47 schme: I mean, how far does the sound travel in 1ms.
03:28:55 sykopomp: trading systems are an example where you want low latency
03:29:10 sykopomp: a few ms can make a difference between a sound trading strategy and money lost :-)
03:29:12