@hewhosees: Oh yeah the born of tragedy one! Superman was never born of tragedy, just the desire to do the right thing. And Superman being a pacifist. Whilst it's true he seeks out non violent options first, he will fight if his enemy can't be reasoned with.

@hewhosees: Oh yeah the born of tragedy one! Superman was never born of tragedy, just the desire to do the right thing. And Superman being a pacifist. Whilst it's true he seeks out non violent options first, he will fight if his enemy can't be reasoned with.

No wait! I think he was talking about the behind the scenes thingy I think.

Also, can you PLEASE come up with a well thought out rebuttal to this statement here from a conversation I'm having with someone on the Pre New-52 Superman compatibility thread?:

"What Marvel does that you forgot to mention in your save the world bit is puts in the human factors like greed, ego and the reality that all these things that plague us normal folks aren't always fixable (some people just lose/die). How many times has Thor's ego and lack of patience been his downfall. how many times has hank felt as though he was looked down on by the other brains of Marvel? What superman doesn't have compared to all these other characters you mentioned is he doesn't deal with the things that a person would actually deal with. he has no weakness. and all the means to fix anything. That's why in my mind superman "clone" characters are always more entertaining and intriguing due to the fact that the majority of them have weakneses or issues within themselves that can and do get exploited (examples: Gladiator-confidence driven, pride; Sentry- mental state, addiction, shattered relationships; Hyperion- lack of rivals/lack of skill, the way he sees the world as needing fixing)."

@hewhosees: Oh yeah the born of tragedy one! Superman was never born of tragedy, just the desire to do the right thing. And Superman being a pacifist. Whilst it's true he seeks out non violent options first, he will fight if his enemy can't be reasoned with.

No wait! I think he was talking about the behind the scenes thingy I think.

Also, can you PLEASE come up with a well thought out rebuttal to this statement here from a conversation I'm having with someone on the Pre New-52 Superman compatibility thread?:

"What Marvel does that you forgot to mention in your save the world bit is puts in the human factors like greed, ego and the reality that all these things that plague us normal folks aren't always fixable (some people just lose/die). How many times has Thor's ego and lack of patience been his downfall. how many times has hank felt as though he was looked down on by the other brains of Marvel? What superman doesn't have compared to all these other characters you mentioned is he doesn't deal with the things that a person would actually deal with. he has no weakness. and all the means to fix anything. That's why in my mind superman "clone" characters are always more entertaining and intriguing due to the fact that the majority of them have weakneses or issues within themselves that can and do get exploited (examples: Gladiator-confidence driven, pride; Sentry- mental state, addiction, shattered relationships; Hyperion- lack of rivals/lack of skill, the way he sees the world as needing fixing)."

This! Supes is perfect and I don't get him. I love Majestic because he's what Supes is without the self imposed restrictions.

@wavemotioncannon: You and I define restrictions very differently. Superman clones cannot beat the original because they would not be were it not for the original. Superman is a paragon of virtue, someone who always does the right thing. He's by no means perfect but his actions are morally pure in trying to do the best thing possible. That is no restriction to me. No Superman clone can compare to the original in personality.

Ah you fail to understand the merits of Superman's character. What he stands for, what he believes in, how he was raised and loved unconditionally, taught to follow an unwavering moral compass in how he acts and to behave selflessly to others. Most Superman clones dick around at some point whereas Superman, he faces trials and problems, yes he has faced them by the way. His humanity is often his greatest obstacle. And the way he deals with these problems is inspiring. He is the example by which all other heroes follow in. For all your focus on 'weaknesses' and 'issues' you fail to understand the simplicity of Superman. That he does the right thing as a default, simply because it's the right thing to do. That to me is deeper and more relatable than anything any other Superman clone has done.

@hewhosees: Oh yeah the born of tragedy one! Superman was never born of tragedy, just the desire to do the right thing. And Superman being a pacifist. Whilst it's true he seeks out non violent options first, he will fight if his enemy can't be reasoned with.

No wait! I think he was talking about the behind the scenes thingy I think.

Also, can you PLEASE come up with a well thought out rebuttal to this statement here from a conversation I'm having with someone on the Pre New-52 Superman compatibility thread?:

"What Marvel does that you forgot to mention in your save the world bit is puts in the human factors like greed, ego and the reality that all these things that plague us normal folks aren't always fixable (some people just lose/die). How many times has Thor's ego and lack of patience been his downfall. how many times has hank felt as though he was looked down on by the other brains of Marvel? What superman doesn't have compared to all these other characters you mentioned is he doesn't deal with the things that a person would actually deal with. he has no weakness. and all the means to fix anything. That's why in my mind superman "clone" characters are always more entertaining and intriguing due to the fact that the majority of them have weakneses or issues within themselves that can and do get exploited (examples: Gladiator-confidence driven, pride; Sentry- mental state, addiction, shattered relationships; Hyperion- lack of rivals/lack of skill, the way he sees the world as needing fixing)."

This! Supes is perfect and I don't get him. I love Majestic because he's what Supes is without the self imposed restrictions.

Yeah, and look how well THAT turned out for the wild storm Universe.

*Looks at Captain Atom Armageddon where Captain Atom destroys the entire Universe because the place was getting more wild unruly than my chest hair*

I think you might not get Supes because you like asshole's in capes pretending to be heroes for their own agenda not related to doing it just because it's the right thing to do more than actual heroes who don't want to virtually enslave or protect a populace or not care about collateral damage or lives lost against those who actually give a damn about the people and life.

IE: anti-heroes in suits.

For the record, there was a REASON the Wildstorm continuity was set-back during Armageddon. Because the "heroes" in that Universe had practically become the villains and the line had been crossed over, vandalized, eaten, pooped out like crap through a goose, and then beaten for all its lunch money.

Ah you fail to understand the merits of Superman's character. What he stands for, what he believes in, how he was raised and loved unconditionally, taught to follow an unwavering moral compass in how he acts and to behave selflessly to others. Most Superman clones dick around at some point whereas Superman, he faces trials and problems, yes he has faced them by the way. His humanity is often his greatest obstacle. And the way he deals with these problems is inspiring. He is the example by which all other heroes follow in. For all your focus on 'weaknesses' and 'issues' you fail to understand the simplicity of Superman. That he does the right thing as a default, simply because it's the right thing to do. That to me is deeper and more relatable than anything any other Superman clone has done.

First, the article says superman is the ideal hero as unlike batman and others he isn't in disguise. So one could assume he is the one "true" superhero. This is the Kill Bill vol 2 bit. But this misrepresents what it means to be a hero. Batman is a hero precisely because he devotes himself to it. Heroes aren't born, they're made. Batman has obsessively and tirelessly forged himself into a superhero. Even to the point of testing his reaching his own human limits. IMO, nothing could be more heroic than such devotion to saving the people of Gotham. The same cannot be said of Superman. He doesbt have human limits. Which leads me to my second point,

The article says he is "entirely" relatable. I couldn't find this further from the truth. Troubled and flawed heroes are far more relatable and heroic precisely because they have to battle against their human, flawed nature whilst constantly trying to better themselves and save others.

First, the article says superman is the ideal hero as unlike batman and others he isn't in disguise. So one could assume he is the one "true" superhero. This is the Kill Bill vol 2 bit. But this misrepresents what it means to be a hero. Batman is a hero precisely because he devotes himself to it. Heroes aren't born, they're made. Batman has obsessively and tirelessly forged himself into a superhero. Even to the point of testing his reaching his own human limits. IMO, nothing could be more heroic than such devotion to saving the people of Gotham. The same cannot be said of Superman. He doesbt have human limits. Which leads me to my second point,

The article says he is "entirely" relatable. I couldn't find this further from the truth. Troubled and flawed heroes are far more relatable and heroic precisely because they have to battle against their human, flawed nature whilst constantly trying to better themselves and save others.

A hero can be either born or made. Regardless though, ALL heroes, like everything, are a product of circumstance.

The circumstances behind Superman was that he's a human looking alien that was raised by a kindly couple living in a small town in the sticks who taught him to use his powers simply because it was right and/or he learned the rightness of using his powers to help others through some event or events in his life. He discovered his passion for journalism, moved to the city after college, got a Nine to Five desk job, tried wooing someone who wouldn't give him the time of day at first into eventually marrying him, and is an optimistic person who, at the end of the day, is a humble and open dude despite all of his power. He's all these things despite the darkness of the world we live in and the inherent struggle between keeping a grounded, human perspective on things despite people calling him not human just because he comes from Krypton and struggle anyone would have because of his power and still manages to hold onto the best qualities of human nature, is a symbol of Hope and tries to help mankind until it can reach that ideal and from catching it if it falls.

The circumstances behind Batman was that he was born as a rich kid who brutally orphaned at age nine and, from that point on, made a pact to right the wrongs of Gotham and the world doing everything a man (in his universe) could do, including mastering master arts, several different fields, and building himself up as symbol made to inspire fear in the hearts of the worst of humanity that the law wouldn't or couldn't touch in the chaos of our modern world and from it, make order.

I like both of them Extremis. I believe that there's value in the majority of heroes from DC and Marvel comics. I just wish there was less "more valuing of one or all or more" over the others from both the Marvel AND DC and more appreciating them all and what makes them awesome.

Nah batman is much better than supes though Superman is a much bigger icon. Which technically I guess makes him a better hero because of all he stands for. Though batman stands for what we could all be if we put our mind to it so.... Idk

Nah batman is much better than supes though Superman is a much bigger icon. Which technically I guess makes him a better hero because of all he stands for. Though batman stands for what we could all be if we put our mind to it so.... Idk

They're both icons that represent what we could all be. Batman is more of what we can all be now because of the circumstances we live in, and Superman is more of what we could all be in the future. You could say that in trying to live up to the ideals of Superman, you'll most likely end up falling into the ideals of Batman (which is not a bad thing and is in fact a good thing as it is a stepping stone on that road, and each step is important). Both are ideals are VERY similar and have the same or similar goals and both characters are idealistic.

A hero can be either born or made. Regardless though, ALL heroes, like everything, are a product of circumstance.

The circumstances behind Superman was that he's a human looking alien that was raised by a kindly couple living in a small town in the sticks who taught him to use his powers simply because it was right and/or he learned the rightness of using his powers to help others through some event or events in his life. He discovered his passion for journalism, moved to the city after college, got a Nine to Five desk job, tried wooing someone who wouldn't give him the time of day at first into eventually marrying him, and is an optimistic person who, at the end of the day, is a humble and open dude despite all of his power. He's all these things despite the darkness of the world we live in and the inherent struggle between keeping a grounded, human perspective on things despite people calling him not human just because he comes from Krypton and struggle anyone would have because of his power and still manages to hold onto the best qualities of human nature, is a symbol of Hope and tries to help mankind until it can reach that ideal and from catching it if it falls.

A hero can be either born or made. Regardless though, ALL heroes, like everything, are a product of circumstance.

The circumstances behind Superman was that he's a human looking alien that was raised by a kindly couple living in a small town in the sticks who taught him to use his powers simply because it was right and/or he learned the rightness of using his powers to help others through some event or events in his life. He discovered his passion for journalism, moved to the city after college, got a Nine to Five desk job, tried wooing someone who wouldn't give him the time of day at first into eventually marrying him, and is an optimistic person who, at the end of the day, is a humble and open dude despite all of his power. He's all these things despite the darkness of the world we live in and the inherent struggle between keeping a grounded, human perspective on things despite people calling him not human just because he comes from Krypton and struggle anyone would have because of his power and still manages to hold onto the best qualities of human nature, is a symbol of Hope and tries to help mankind until it can reach that ideal and from catching it if it falls.

And how does this not illustrate my point?

Right because you can totally relate to a multibillionaire orphan that's slightly unhinged more than a man born with incredible powers taught to do right by his loving family

A hero can be either born or made. Regardless though, ALL heroes, like everything, are a product of circumstance.

The circumstances behind Superman was that he's a human looking alien that was raised by a kindly couple living in a small town in the sticks who taught him to use his powers simply because it was right and/or he learned the rightness of using his powers to help others through some event or events in his life. He discovered his passion for journalism, moved to the city after college, got a Nine to Five desk job, tried wooing someone who wouldn't give him the time of day at first into eventually marrying him, and is an optimistic person who, at the end of the day, is a humble and open dude despite all of his power. He's all these things despite the darkness of the world we live in and the inherent struggle between keeping a grounded, human perspective on things despite people calling him not human just because he comes from Krypton and struggle anyone would have because of his power and still manages to hold onto the best qualities of human nature, is a symbol of Hope and tries to help mankind until it can reach that ideal and from catching it if it falls.

And how does this not illustrate my point?

Right because you can totally relate to a multibillionaire orphan that's slightly unhinged more than a man born with incredible powers taught to do right by his loving family

Ummm, dude, I think you might be going a LITTLE too far right there with the generalizing and stuff. That's just asking for trouble.

A hero can be either born or made. Regardless though, ALL heroes, like everything, are a product of circumstance.

The circumstances behind Superman was that he's a human looking alien that was raised by a kindly couple living in a small town in the sticks who taught him to use his powers simply because it was right and/or he learned the rightness of using his powers to help others through some event or events in his life. He discovered his passion for journalism, moved to the city after college, got a Nine to Five desk job, tried wooing someone who wouldn't give him the time of day at first into eventually marrying him, and is an optimistic person who, at the end of the day, is a humble and open dude despite all of his power. He's all these things despite the darkness of the world we live in and the inherent struggle between keeping a grounded, human perspective on things despite people calling him not human just because he comes from Krypton and struggle anyone would have because of his power and still manages to hold onto the best qualities of human nature, is a symbol of Hope and tries to help mankind until it can reach that ideal and from catching it if it falls.

And how does this not illustrate my point?

Right because you can totally relate to a multibillionaire orphan that's slightly unhinged more than a man born with incredible powers taught to do right by his loving family

Also, I'm not even sure THAT was the point he was trying to make. I think the point he was trying to make is that heroes aren't born, they're made.