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the EA has always been shown as selfish and evil, none of the higher ups in SEED objected to exterminating the coordinators, they simply said they should focus on the energy crisis on earth instead of launching a full-scale attack against Zaft after obtaining the N-jammer canceller data

Maybe so, but it still means they're not trying to prioritize killing Coordinators like Blue Cosmos. So it's not surprising if this new Alliance in Destiny did not have any immediate effect on the Coordinators still living in Orb.

1. Cagalli wouldn't agree to persecution on any of Orb's citizens.
2. The focus of the alliance is on the war.
3. Kira and Lacus still led a peaceful life even after Orb joined the EA.

I think that's enough to conclude that Coordinators in Orb are not being persecuted.

1. don't think it was up to her to decide, not to mention the treaty wasnt officially signed until after she was Kira-napped
2. Against the coordinators
3. They didn't, they left ORB on the AA before the treaty was official.

It's just one guy for crying out load. A whole military base can't capture one guy?!?!

Well the plot keeps thickening. I don't mind the direction it's going that much but I wish it would do it better.

Personally I don't know what Athrun was thinking when he decided to argue with the Chairman. The holes in the Chairman's reasoning are obvious. If Archangel is on their side then he expects them to come to him and if they don't then he can destroy them. I think the obvious solution is for ZAFT to try and contact Archangel for negotiations. Athrun could have easily pointed that out and yet he didn't. Maybe he realised the Chairman's real side then but we don't know and that's the issue. Like I said, I don't know what Athrun was thinking so i don't know what the story is trying to achieve. Was the story saying the Chairman's rationale looked reasonable on paper but Athrun knew otherwise or is the story saying the Chairman's rational had obvious holes but Athrun didn't feel the need to push?

Episode 37

And thus Athrun survives. Cue surprise from absolutely no one.

Well at least Meyrin survived too. I'd have been incredibly pissed if they let Meyrin die.

I hope Shinn becomes a full blown antagonist now. He'd make a great antagonist.

Spoiler for @ monster:

Re-arranged somethings due to overlap

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

It's in a side story, but it's also in the anime. That's how Orb got the technology to build mobile suits.

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I never said these ideals are not important. There are many things that governments do that are important, things that are done in secret, and even things that could affect the head of the government if known to the public. That doesn't mean they're all on the same level as the US government infringing the US Constitution.

Yes but still. The way they acted with it seemed very much like something they knew was going against their principles, and that principle in question was their ideals.

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My point is that Junius 7 is a valid justification IF they wanted to claim they're still trying to keep Orb's ideals.

And I made it clear that it's false equivalence and fanwanking anyway. The fact is that they didn't keep with their ideals and broke it completely. That's what I'm complaining about. Talking about how they could have is just even more annoying to me, because that's what I would have want to have happened.

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HOWEVER, they could also choose to say that they're abandoning those ideals because it is not working for Orb in the current global situation. Either way, they have a justification for joining the Alliance. I'm sorry if this caused any confusion.

My whole point was that it was out of character...

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Neutrality is about not interfering in the conflicts of other nations. Non-aggression, in this context, is about not attacking other nations for one's own purpose, such as colonization or imperialism. They're two different things.

And neutrality is justification for that. Because they are neutral, they can justify their non-aggression and justify their right as a sovereign nation.

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That the fact that he failed to uphold these ideals ultimately did not matter. It did not change Orb fundamentally as a country.

He did not fail to uphold the ideals just because the Earth Alliance invaded. Even if everyone had fought to he last man, the Earth Alliance would have ultimately invaded.

That aside, what sort of fundamental change would you be expecting if those ideals were fundamental and the Earth Alliance had still managed to invade?

1. don't think it was up to her to decide, not to mention the treaty wasnt officially signed until after she was Kira-napped
2. Against the coordinators
3. They didn't, they left ORB on the AA before the treaty was official.

1. Well, she never even brought it up, which means it was not expected as a requirement of joining the EA.
2. Coordinators who are living in PLANTs/working for ZAFT.
3. Oh, right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

Yes but still. The way they acted with it seemed very much like something they knew was going against their principles, and that principle in question was their ideals.

Of course, because it was.

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Talking about how they could have is just even more annoying to me, because that's what I would have want to have happened.

Oh, okay.

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My whole point was that it was out of character...

Not really. The events in SEED had forced them to reevaluate what's really important for Orb.

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And neutrality is justification for that. Because they are neutral, they can justify their non-aggression and justify their right as a sovereign nation.

Neutrality is not a required justification for the other two.

For example, Orb could still choose not to invade other countries and not allow other countries to invade it while taking a side. They can do this by supporting the war effort of one side by providing resources and materials but not taking part in any actual battle unless the other side choose to attack Orb.

The reverse is also true:

Orb could be an imperialistic nation but remains neutral to the conflicts of other nations whose territories it has no interests in acquiring.

Thus, while neutrality is one of the three principles, it is not the core. All three share equal importance and together make up Orb's ideals.

Quote:

Even if everyone had fought to he last man

They didn't even have to do that.

If they had surrendered like Japan did in WW2, only after the USA showed it had the means and the resolve to use devastating weapons to which Japan had nothing to counter with, then fine.

But that's not the case here. Freedom and Justice were capable of dealing with the three AF Gundams.

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That aside, what sort of fundamental change would you be expecting if those ideals were fundamental and the Earth Alliance had still managed to invade?

The kind that changes the relationship between the government and its people.

Like I said, if they weren't doing anything wrong then they wouldn't act like they have something to hide but they did. If it is clearly going against their ideals and they're acting like that then it very much seems to me on the level of the US government infringing it's own Constitution.

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Not really. The events in SEED had forced them to reevaluate what's really important for Orb.

There wasn't any hint of this at all until the the treaty actually happened. And it still doesn't make sense. Like I said, lame would have been focused to the external, not the internal. And it seems this is exactly how the Orb military have reacted, so it seems clear to me that the culture is still very much there.

But even then that's only one issue. Even if we assume Orb people decided to abandon those ideals, that doesn't mean they're suddenly going to accept the idea of allying themselves with the Earth Alliance, the very side that invaded them just two years ago. There would still be incredible amounts of hatred for them.

Quote:

Neutrality is not a required justification for the other two.

For example, Orb could still choose not to invade other countries and not allow other countries to invade it while taking a side. They can do this by supporting the war effort of one side by providing resources and materials but not taking part in any actual battle unless the other side choose to attack Orb.

The reverse is also true:

Orb could be an imperialistic nation but remains neutral to the conflicts of other nations whose territories it has no interests in acquiring.

Thus, while neutrality is one of the three principles, it is not the core. All three share equal importance and together make up Orb's ideals.

The whole point is that ALL those three ideals are required for complete neutrality. If you can be imperialistic and still maintain the last ideal then is shows the last ideal is not about complete neutrality on it's own.

When Uzumi made his speech during his people's evacuation, he also talked about how if Orb started taking sides then they would become a country that attacks others just like the rest, so the ideals are clearly interlinked. The ideals can not be considered individually. They are considered as a whole.

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They didn't even have to do that. If they had surrendered like Japan did in WW2, only after the USA showed it had the means and the resolve to use devastating weapons to which Japan had nothing to counter with, then fine.

But that's not the case here. Freedom and Justice were capable of dealing with the three AF Gundams.

I think the story made it clear that whilst Freedom and Justice could fight the three AF Gundams to a stand still, they weren't able to defeat them and that the rest of the Earth Alliance forces was basically crushing the Orb forces. They had already managed to invade parts of Orb and Uzumi decided it was hopeless. The story made it pretty clear it was hopeless especially when it had loads of character on both sides saying Orb was very close to falling every minute or so.

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The kind that changes the relationship between the government and its people.

It's just one guy for crying out load. A whole military base can't capture one guy?!?!

Well the plot keeps thickening. I don't mind the direction it's going that much but I wish it would do it better.

Personally I don't know what Athrun was thinking when he decided to argue with the Chairman. The holes in the Chairman's reasoning are obvious. If Archangel is on their side then he expects them to come to him and if they don't then he can destroy them. I think the obvious solution is for ZAFT to try and contact Archangel for negotiations. Athrun could have easily pointed that out and yet he didn't. Maybe he realised the Chairman's real side then but we don't know and that's the issue. Like I said, I don't know what Athrun was thinking so i don't know what the story is trying to achieve. Was the story saying the Chairman's rationale looked reasonable on paper but Athrun knew otherwise or is the story saying the Chairman's rational had obvious holes but Athrun didn't feel the need to push?

Episode 37

And thus Athrun survives. Cue surprise from absolutely no one.

Well at least Meyrin survived too. I'd have been incredibly pissed if they let Meyrin die.

I hope Shinn becomes a full blown antagonist now. He'd make a great antagonist.

Spoiler for @ monster:

Re-arranged somethings due to overlap

Yes but still. The way they acted with it seemed very much like something they knew was going against their principles, and that principle in question was their ideals.

And I made it clear that it's false equivalence and fanwanking anyway. The fact is that they didn't keep with their ideals and broke it completely. That's what I'm complaining about. Talking about how they could have is just even more annoying to me, because that's what I would have want to have happened.

My whole point was that it was out of character...

And neutrality is justification for that. Because they are neutral, they can justify their non-aggression and justify their right as a sovereign nation.

He did not fail to uphold the ideals just because the Earth Alliance invaded. Even if everyone had fought to he last man, the Earth Alliance would have ultimately invaded.

That aside, what sort of fundamental change would you be expecting if those ideals were fundamental and the Earth Alliance had still managed to invade?

Lol, that was pretty hilarious when the opera signing turned on as they revealed the new Gundam. Talk about melodramatic.

I hope Kira doesn't start dominating the show now because frankly this has mostly been Athrun's show up until now and I'd rather they kept it that way.

And I sincerely hope that Lacus Clyne hasn't just been making a new Gundam for Kira all this time. As if that would totally solve everything. Then again maybe it's better if that's all she does.

Well there's another. It's too bad the tv series weren't the first that had Athrun's narrations. He still gets most of the show's screentime. I Although I wanted to see more interactions between Kira and Shinn considering how their mobile suits' names reflect the series' theme, Athrun will have his time mentoring Shinn in a really harsh way. I would recommend you to ignore the last episode and directly watch the OVA since it gives a better final fight and ending

^ I was actually gonna ask about what the deal was with the final episode (I heard that there's an OVA that serves as a better final ending). Thanks for letting me know.

Episode 40

Lol, the Golden Mobile Suit. It never gets old.

And Yuna proved to be quite the incompetent arsewipe. Amazing that this buffoon was able manipulate Cagalli. And apparently Cagalli was meant to be the Chief Representative...

Well at least Cagalli has finally found her rhythm. A match up between Cagalli and Shinn sounds interesting. Hopefully it won't be completely dominated by the clear difference in strength between the two. By all accounts it should be a cakewalk for Shinn.

^^^^^^^ You're in for a treat. The main MS fight in Ep 43 is very well choreographed imho. Although other viewers might think differently, its not surprising xxx lost because he let his emotions get the better of him.... Not revealing anything else due to spoilers....

Well that ended disappointingly. Cagalli didn't get to have any words with Shinn and had to have her arse saved by Kira.

Meanwhile Kira comes in and it's clear there's gonna be another climactic fight with Kira. I'm a bit mixed on Kira's reintroduction. It's obviously keeping in line with the story but that line is not to my liking. Kira is just way too perfect and is starting to feel a little flat. On the other hand, I really want to see Shinn get his arse handed to him. And all the signs seem to point towards a victory for Kira at this point. I hope Athrun will make his way in though.

Episode 43

Thank God this show has Athrun...

The fight was good but not amazing. I personally think Kira's defeat at the hands of Kira was the best so far in this season.

I still call bull on Neo actually being Mu. We saw him vaporized for God sake.

The battle of the princesses was kinda funny. That television broadcaster must be really schizophrenic. I wonder how the fake Lacus Clyne could have succeeded in her propaganda anyway. Interrupting a broadcast from an Orb representative that was very clearly giving a public message to the Chairman is a pretty obvious thing to do that suggests PLANT is trying to control it's soldiers. Surely those soldiers would be able to realise that?

I consider the fight in ep 43 to be the best, genuine "actual" (emphasis on actual) fight between two aces in the show , for the simple fact that...

1. There was no bull.
2. No Hallucinations. (Ya'll already Know)
3. No Distractions.
4. No Nerf' s.
5. No Pilot being Half-Assed.
6. No type of mental breakdown what so ever. (Ya'll already Know)
7. Actual Choreography.
8. Not having your back turned and running away half of the time.

You have to admit.... In this show. This show right here? This show right here? Is hard to argue against.

I personally think Kira's defeat at the hands of Kira was the best so far in this season.

For a second I thought you were being symbollic In my case my favorite fight was the Battle of Berlin due to how all the groups were organized. Not to mention the setting they used. The Destroy was strong but it is obvious that once flying support was defeated it was vulnerable to enemies. Also the way the Destroy was stopped was pretty good.

Like I said, if they weren't doing anything wrong then they wouldn't act like they have something to hide but they did. If it is clearly going against their ideals and they're acting like that then it very much seems to me on the level of the US government infringing it's own Constitution.

Now that would be false equivalence.

For example, just because I would feel remorse for stealing something from a friend doesn't mean that stealing is now on the same level as murder.

Quote:

There wasn't any hint of this at all until the the treaty actually happened. And it still doesn't make sense. Like I said, lame would have been focused to the external, not the internal. And it seems this is exactly how the Orb military have reacted, so it seems clear to me that the culture is still very much there.

But even then that's only one issue. Even if we assume Orb people decided to abandon those ideals, that doesn't mean they're suddenly going to accept the idea of allying themselves with the Earth Alliance, the very side that invaded them just two years ago. There would still be incredible amounts of hatred for them.

I believe Yuuna asked Cagalli along the line of whether Cagalli was willing to let Orb burn again. As for the Orb military, it will follow what the government decides. In fact, if you're asking for reaction, you have it there in Destiny through the Orb soldiers. You saw how they remained loyal to the Orb government.

And as for the people's hate, it could go either way. Just because they would hate the AF doesn't mean they would disagree with the decision to avoid fighting the AF on their own again.

Quote:

The whole point is that ALL those three ideals are required for complete neutrality. If you can be imperialistic and still maintain the last ideal then is shows the last ideal is not about complete neutrality on it's own.

When Uzumi made his speech during his people's evacuation, he also talked about how if Orb started taking sides then they would become a country that attacks others just like the rest, so the ideals are clearly interlinked. The ideals can not be considered individually. They are considered as a whole.

These ideals are there to protect Orb. Neutrality is just one method, which, yes, is interlinked with the other two in Orb's ideals. But again, the idea is to protect Orb.

Quote:

I think the story made it clear that whilst Freedom and Justice could fight the three AF Gundams to a stand still, they weren't able to defeat them and that the rest of the Earth Alliance forces was basically crushing the Orb forces. They had already managed to invade parts of Orb and Uzumi decided it was hopeless. The story made it pretty clear it was hopeless especially when it had loads of character on both sides saying Orb was very close to falling every minute or so.

Let's step back for a moment. First of all, we're just talking about the AF fleet that was sent to Orb, not the whole EA force. That fleet consists only of several ships and however many Strike Daggers they can safely fit. And remember, these are first generation mobile suits. With the AF Gundams out of the way, Freedom alone would be more than enough to help Orb's fleet.

Quote:

That's kind of vague. What kind of change would you expect?

What happens if the US Constitution were to be abolished? The people would lose the rights they currently enjoy, including the right to have a say in the way the government is run.

What happens if Orb were to abolish its ideals? Nothing, Orb will still go to war when it wants to or not. But the people's relations with the government won't change and it doesn't affect any right they may have as Orb citizens.

"Shinn really didn't win; I lost." -- Kira, to Athrun, in response to his defeat by Shinn in episode 34

Er...yeah...totally intentional...

Spoiler for @ monster:

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

Now that would be false equivalence.

For example, just because I would feel remorse for stealing something from a friend doesn't mean that stealing is now on the same level as murder.[/quote]

So if I follow this analogy correctly, that means what they did is on the same level of stealing (which is against the law) but not murder. That actually sounds about right to me. I'm not accusing them of murder.

Quote:

I believe Yuuna asked Cagalli along the line of whether Cagalli was willing to let Orb burn again.

That's what I'm calling BS on though. Their decision to go with the treaty. There wasn't any hint before that.

Quote:

As for the Orb military, it will follow what the government decides. In fact, if you're asking for reaction, you have it there in Destiny through the Orb soldiers. You saw how they remained loyal to the Orb government.

And how they hated it and eventually defected to Cagalli so they could follow their ideals again? Yes I saw.

Quote:

And as for the people's hate, it could go either way. Just because they would hate the AF doesn't mean they would disagree with the decision to avoid fighting the AF on their own again.

But they would definitely disagree with a decision to join and help the AF. They'd be livid that they're now supporting the very people who invaded them and killed their people two years ago.

Quote:

These ideals are there to protect Orb. Neutrality is just one method, which, yes, is interlinked with the other two in Orb's ideals. But again, the idea is to protect Orb.

Through neutrality. That's the method. That's the ideal.

Quote:

Let's step back for a moment. First of all, we're just talking about the AF fleet that was sent to Orb, not the whole EA force. That fleet consists only of several ships and however many Strike Daggers they can safely fit. And remember, these are first generation mobile suits. With the AF Gundams out of the way, Freedom alone would be more than enough to help Orb's fleet.

If you're trying to argue that Orb did still have a chance in it then what you've pointed out is a plot hole. The fact of the matter is that the story still made it clear it was only a matter of time for Orb and they were quickly running out.

Quote:

What happens if the US Constitution were to be abolished? The people would lose the rights they currently enjoy, including the right to have a say in the way the government is run.

What happens if Orb were to abolish its ideals? Nothing, Orb will still go to war when it wants to or not. But the people's relations with the government won't change and it doesn't affect any right they may have as Orb citizens.

Why does it have to affect it's human rights? The US Constitution is all about human rights, hence why abolishing it affects human rights. The ideals concern foreign policy not internal human rights.

Episode 44

Well I’m glad it didn’t go overboard with the Lacus Clyne debacle. It is serious because it potentially shows the ZAFT soldiers that they’ve been lied to by their own leader but nothing else. Gladys is right: Lacus Clyne isn't the one giving her orders.

But it looks like the whole thing with the Chairman doesn't matter anymore now that the attention is back on LOGOS and as Jibril ultimately proves to the final villain. I’d rather the Chairman was the final villain since Jibril is just too easy, but oh well.

But I have to wonder now why Jibril just didn't do that before. Was the cannon conveniently finished after he escaped to Orb or something?

Episode 45

Well it got me there. Jibril was dealt with quicker than I expected but what now? This means the Chairman really will be the final antagonist but I'm wondering what the Chairman will do now to achieve that. He’s been quite harsh when it comes to means and ends but it’s hard to see him become as much of a threat to the world (Or rather the solar system to be precise) as Jibril was.

And did this show just hint as a MeyrinXAthrun end? I hope so. I've actually been hoping for a while now but didn't say anything because I didn't think there was a chance but it looks like there’s one now. I think they make a better couple imo.

And as we turn towards the final arc, I can’t say any dam has broken nor can I imagine it happening in these final episodes. It’s certainly had its flaws but I'm finding it hard to consider it any worse than the first series if I'm honest.

[EDIT]

Episode 46

Ugh...

...Lacus Clyne...

They wasted a whole episode on this.

[EDIT]

Episode 47

OH MY GOD, they wasted TWO episodes on this. Just get the frikkin story already!

[EDIT]

Episode 48

Durandal's plan seems a bit vague. What exactly is the Destiny Plan supposed to achieve. Turn you into a Co-ordinator? Or this "maximising your genes" some sort of Gattaca style society in plan? Whatever the case he's fallen into the obvious trap as labelling everyone who disagrees with him an enemy. And what's more he's decided to use that giant canon as well. Ehh...I'm not really thrilled with this direction since now it just seems like conflict for the sake of it.

[EDIT]

Episode 49 & Final Plus

Well whatever misgivings I may have had about the set up to this conflict, this finale still ended up being very action packed and gripping. My only real complain here is that they didn't have the balls to kill any good guy except maybe Gladys (and no one cares about Gladys. I don't even know why she decided to die and abandon her son).

Didn't expect Rey to be the one to shoot Durandal but it does make some sense and was quite the twist. Though to be honest I think going to extent of being willing to kill Durandal was a slight step too far. I expected him to simply not intervene and let Durandal be shot, not be the one to shoot. Personally I think it would've been loads better if Kira and Rey were replaced with Athrun and Shinn in that scene but that's just me. This was good anyway.

Overall impressions

Same as my impressions with the first season really. It had it's good moments and bad moments. There was a bit of a larger than usual hiccup between episode 46 and 48 but otherwise I don't consider it that much more flawed than the first season. Maybe the first season is slightly better but only slightly. One thing that i don't think I've mentioned (and is more to do with the entire SEED franchise as a whole) is how Orb is just so God damn ideal and just happens to exhibit a lot of Japanese culture. Seems a bit obnoxious but maybe I'm just looking into things too much.