Since we have the guy who wrote the book on Langford (literally) I always wanted to ask; do you think Langford few into his power from his days at lightweight or do you think that the power was always there and fighting the big guys just meant he could land easier and more flush?

"Since we have the guy who wrote the book on Langford (literally) I always wanted to ask; do you think Langford few into his power from his days at lightweight or do you think that the power was always there and fighting the big guys just meant he could land easier and more flush?"

Langford credited two guys that I’m aware of with helping him learn how to hit with more power and he would have been a lightweight at the time, though he failed to make the weight limit for that class when he fought Gans. Here are two more excerpts from the book about him concerning that subject:·Sometime in early 1903: “Around this time veteran boxer George Byers, a black middleweight considered a serious title contender only a few years earlier, gave Sam his first real instruction on how to hit. Sam was anxious to please Joe Woodman by knocking out his opponents, but he found he couldn’t seem to hit them just right. He worried that Joe would give up on him if he didn’t start producing knockouts. One day George noticed Sam looking worried and asked what was the problem. Sam explained that he didn’t seem to be able to put enough steam behind his punches to put his opponents down. George told him he wasn’t setting when he hit. He then offered to give Sam a few lessons, and Sam quickly accepted. Those few lessons turned into many. George showed Sam how to trick his opponent into position where he could hit him. He showed Sam how to “set” in an instant and how to put all his force into his blows. He showed him how to throw powerful short punches.

·Joe Gans after their 1903 fight: “A few hours later, flush from his victory, Sam celebrated his big win at a local cabaret with some of his friends. It was the very same establishment that Joe Gans had chosen as a place to nurse his wounds. Gans spied Sam first, from a few tables away. Without a moment’s hesitation, he walked over to Sam’s table and shook his hand saying: “Boy, you’re going to be a great fighter someday. You’re the first man that ever puffed my lips. Take care of yourself, don’t get a big head and nobody can keep you from being a champion.” After telling Sam that he had no intention of fighting him again because he was too tough, he extended an offer to show him a few things in regards to how to hit. Gans told Sam that if he had already known what Gans planned to show him, Sam would have been able to win by knockout. Sam had been extremely impressed with the skills that Gans had exhibited in the ring earlier that evening, so he gladly took Gans up on his offer. The two eventually got together and Joe spent an hour showing Sam his hitting faults, and how he could change them to hit more like Joe did. Sam would later say: “In my opinion, Joe Gans was the greatest all around fighter, when you consider brains, boxing coolness, speed, and ability to take it and power to give. I learned more from him than any fighter I ever faced in my fight with him, and from the knowledge he shared with me afterwards.”Langford obviously continued to mature physically after that and grew into a legimitate light heavyweight with a much bigger punch than he would have carried in the lighter divisions.

Fleischer's father in law was at the Johnson-Langford bout. Fleischer wrote of his conversations with his father in law that the fight was one sided and that Langford was taken to the hospital afterward. The only reason why Sam lasted the distance is that Johnson eased off of him after dropping him early. This really should be no surprise since JJ outweighed Sam by 40 or so pounds.

Fleischer also wrote that he would razz Johnson about that fight kidding around that Langford really kicked his butt. It got to a point where JJ turned to Fleischer one day with tears in his eyes stating..."Nat call me the worst fighter you ever saw and I was yellow but please dont say that Langford beat me or even gave me a tough fight...its simply not true".

"The only reason why Sam lasted the distance is that Johnson eased off of him after dropping him early."

I'm not sure about a visit to the hospital by Langford but don't believe the above statement to be true. By all accounts there was no easing off by Johnson, who did everything he could to put Sam away. Johnson lost a wager with Sam for failing to knock him out. He'd bet Sam that he wouldn't go the distance. Another excerpt:

"At the end of the fight, Johnson appeared disappointed. Hehad failed to prevent Sam from going the distance. There was no doubt that Johnson had won the fight. He still looked relatively unmarked, while Sam’s face was very badly bruised and puffed. Johnson was tired, and Sam was clearly exhausted.Sam took some solace in the fact that Johnson now owed him $500, and he was wildly cheered by the crowd for the courage he exhibited. Wrote The Globe,
There is one thing sure: that when Langford left the
ring the spectators did not call him the names that they
did when Sandy (Ferguson) fought Johnson at the same
club.
There was no disagreement over whether Johnson had
won the fight. Various reports made it clear the affair had
been one sided, but there was much admiration expressed for
the smaller man’s fighting spirit."

"Since we have the guy who wrote the book on Langford (literally) I always wanted to ask; do you think Langford few into his power from his days at lightweight or do you think that the power was always there and fighting the big guys just meant he could land easier and more flush?"

Langford credited two guys that I’m aware of with helping him learn how to hit with more power and he would have been a lightweight at the time, though he failed to make the weight limit for that class when he fought Gans. Here are two more excerpts from the book about him concerning that subject:·Sometime in early 1903: “Around this time veteran boxer George Byers, a black middleweight considered a serious title contender only a few years earlier, gave Sam his first real instruction on how to hit. Sam was anxious to please Joe Woodman by knocking out his opponents, but he found he couldn’t seem to hit them just right. He worried that Joe would give up on him if he didn’t start producing knockouts. One day George noticed Sam looking worried and asked what was the problem. Sam explained that he didn’t seem to be able to put enough steam behind his punches to put his opponents down. George told him he wasn’t setting when he hit. He then offered to give Sam a few lessons, and Sam quickly accepted. Those few lessons turned into many. George showed Sam how to trick his opponent into position where he could hit him. He showed Sam how to “set” in an instant and how to put all his force into his blows. He showed him how to throw powerful short punches.

·Joe Gans after their 1903 fight: “A few hours later, flush from his victory, Sam celebrated his big win at a local cabaret with some of his friends. It was the very same establishment that Joe Gans had chosen as a place to nurse his wounds. Gans spied Sam first, from a few tables away. Without a moment’s hesitation, he walked over to Sam’s table and shook his hand saying: “Boy, you’re going to be a great fighter someday. You’re the first man that ever puffed my lips. Take care of yourself, don’t get a big head and nobody can keep you from being a champion.” After telling Sam that he had no intention of fighting him again because he was too tough, he extended an offer to show him a few things in regards to how to hit. Gans told Sam that if he had already known what Gans planned to show him, Sam would have been able to win by knockout. Sam had been extremely impressed with the skills that Gans had exhibited in the ring earlier that evening, so he gladly took Gans up on his offer. The two eventually got together and Joe spent an hour showing Sam his hitting faults, and how he could change them to hit more like Joe did. Sam would later say: “In my opinion, Joe Gans was the greatest all around fighter, when you consider brains, boxing coolness, speed, and ability to take it and power to give. I learned more from him than any fighter I ever faced in my fight with him, and from the knowledge he shared with me afterwards.”Langford obviously continued to mature physically after that and grew into a legimitate light heavyweight with a much bigger punch than he would have carried in the lighter divisions.

Thank you sir. You not only answered my question but made me wonder about the oft repeated maxim that punchers are born not made. Certainly seems like a little instruction turned Langford from a good hitter into one of the greatest of all time.

Dad Phillips my father in law who knowledge I match with anyone was at that fight and was in the room when I razzed Johnson. He agreed with Johnsons version of the fight.."Jj decisively defeated Langford. He was the complete master of the situation. Jack so far outclassed Langford that for a time, until he eased up on his onslaughts, the fight was one sided. Langford was dropped twice for counts of nine and he would have been out the first time if the ref had not slowed up the count. At the end of the fight Sam had to be taken to the hospital. As for Sam dropping Jack thats absurd why he could not land on jack."

A few days later Nat cornered Joe Woodman who handled Sam for that fight and was spreading the rumor that Sam had actually knocked down and gave Johnson a tough fight. Nat demand the low down of what happened that day. All woodman would say is .."Its all true Nat"

Several weeks later Woodman came to Fleischers office with a new hwt prospect asking is Nat would run a story and picture of the lad. Nat said sure but on one condition...."you tell me what actually happened during the langford johnson bout since Dad states your all wrong about it"

Joe chuckled..."You got me Nat. Langford never dropped Johnson but I was anxious to make another bout with Jack so I invented the story to goat Johnson into the bout."

Yes, I'm familiar with that quote from Fleischer's book and include this information in the Langford book. By all accounts he gave Langford a terrific beating that day. The only comment that I was taking exception to was the one about Johnson easing up on him to let him stay the limit. The newspaper accounts and the story about the wager between the two that I've read don't support that. And, I never heard anything about Johnson saying anything like that.

I know that many believe Johnson would have defeated Sam again had they fought a second time, and even I have to believe Sam would have had a difficult time beating him after he'd matured physically and grown into a legitimate light-heavyweight but as far as I'm concerned it's a black mark against Johnson that he chose to avoid the true # 1 contender for a number of years during his title reign.

Yeah I'd he's capable but enough so to favour over a great like Hagler at the mw limit? I don't see it. His body of work in the division is nigh on non existant.

I think he hit his stride as a genuine hw when he was the outstanding challenger to Johnson.

I haven't checked his record for a while so I'm unsure what he weighed between 1911 and 1915. But the weight during that time is when I'd say he was at his best.

Agree Langford was better at the higher weights, but his body of work is hardly "non-existent" at MW and below.
Beating Joe Gans at Lightweight and (according to most who saw the fight) Walcott at Welter are not negligible achievements. He won the colored middleweight championship (which was not some two-bit title), and showed himself the equal of Ketchel. Also worth remembering that several of Langford's fights against heavyweights were while he was campaigning at Middle - he was still basically a Middleweight when he fought Johnson.

Based on quality of opposition at Middleweight and below, I don't think he's lagging behind Hagler at all. He's definitely a harder puncher and (from the admittedly very scanty footage) one of the slickest defensive fighters of all time. Though Marvin is made of granite and would push him every step of the way.

Would not want to bet on the outcome of this, but if anyone invents a time machine be sure to let me know.

I know that many believe Johnson would have defeated Sam again had they fought a second time, and even I have to believe Sam would have had a difficult time beating him after he'd matured physically and grown into a legitimate light-heavyweight but as far as I'm concerned it's a black mark against Johnson that he chose to avoid the true # 1 contender for a number of years during his title reign.

He signed to fight him only to have the offer rescinded once he was persecuted for having a relationship with a white girl