Windows Server 2012 RC is out

I'm trying to figure out why you need to manually restart a server so often.

That is not the point. He is simply pointing out that a basic operation is now foolishly layered beneath a tablet UI. It is just the tip of the iceberg.

I really do have to admit that I hated the UI change from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 initially so I am trying to be open-minded and learn this new paradigm. But while that change was to take advantage of multi-process and threaded capable CPUs this new Metro UI just seems really out of place and is not exactly intuitive, especially on servers. I find myself often unable to navigate and ultimately very hateful of this new UI. Not worth my Technet subscription, nor will it see the light of day in my infrastructure until I see 2012 R2 at least. If having to learn PowerShell is a requirement for use of this new OS with 2008 R2 then it is not an *upgrade*.

All of the adherents say just click CTRL-X-UP-ARROW-ENTER-ENTER-RIGHT CLICK but they have been religiously drinking this Kool-Aid since it first leaked. I just want to be able to manage my damned domain, recover a deleted user object once in a blue moon, and review the event log without missing yet another lunch break. The tools in 2008 R2 was a signifiant step forward; now it feels like running an enterprise from Windows Phone 7.

Anyone administering Exchange 2007 or Exchange 2010 has to use PowerShell at some point. I didnt much think of PS in v1.0, but since 2.0 its improved to be actually usable. Any improvement from there will make automation easier for me.

What I dont get is why there is an aversion to PowerShell in the first place? Is it in any way scary, or is it because you need to learn something that it bothers you?

What I dont get is why there is an aversion to PowerShell in the first place? Is it in any way scary, or is it because you need to learn something that it bothers you?

Well I will admit that I am a UNIX oldhat, and it seems to me that microsoft is trying to reinvent the bash shell. Now they are damned if they do, and damned if they dont, so to speak, and seem to have followed the former.

So, I can follow that path, but:

* I already know sh,csh,ks, and bash and this is something new* Unlike UNIX every goshdarned module seems to have its own CLI syntax* It has signing requirements which involves CA issues not to mention I may want to change a comment wihtout resigning the whole thing. This is meant to protect a glablly readable SYSVOL whick frankly is kind of dumb.

The problem *I* have it is that I can not easily run it remotely with SSH preshared keys, and there is no interop from non-Microsoft OS's. Why can't I be logged into my Linux/Solaris/non-Windows monitoring system and have it fire off "ssh host 'powershellcmd --withoptions'? That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore it, though, it's just increasing the number of supported script languages from VeryLargeNumber to VeryLargeNumber+1.

The tools in 2008 R2 was a signifiant step forward; now it feels like running an enterprise from Windows Phone 7.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I've been using both 8 and 2012 RCs for the past few days, and trying very hard to get past my comfy-ness with my current workflows and knowledge of the Windows UI, and adapt to Metro and all of it's trimmings.

I have been having a very difficult time.

I've been trying to find a way to encapsulate my take in a brief sentence, and your statement is really resonating with me. I share a lot of szlevi's frustration at MS's apparent "if it ain't broke, we'll move it down a few layers" mentality. The Start Menu had matured into something very powerful and useful by Windows 7 / R2. No matter how much I try to take a step back and look objectively, Metro just doesn't fit on the server layer in it's current implementation. Maybe it will mature, we'll see. But I am quite happy with where Windows' Start Menu is with R2 and 7 - along with pinned items, it is perfect IMO.

Why couldn't Metro be a fullscreen app with a Start Menu grafted on the side of it?

It is actually very easy to perform the basics on (installing roles & features, troubleshooting tools, etc). The 'Tools' menu has most of the general options for administering servers in one place. Powershell can do everything else remotely. I don't know why there are such strong complaints about it really. Other than the UI change, everything underneath seems better and still familiar.

As for 'shutdown' not being one click away, I for one am glad it's been 'hidden away' because it reduces the risk of accidental shutdowns. It is funny to see all the explosions of rage for such simple things though

I think they're pushing strongly towards admins not actually using the local server for administration and instead to using Powershell and remote tools, or a 'management' server.

I hope MS figures out how to properly market their products, I think that's their worst department. Zune pass (and the ZuneHD) was very decent and yet wasn't made widely available and not advertised properly, not to mention how terrible all of their other ads are. I hope they just advertise all the awesome things Server 2012 can do, not how 'great' Metro is on it.

.... but given that the new UI will cause many slowdowns with my work....

I'm genuinely curious how some are coming to this determination. What slowdowns will be caused? Besides the shutdown/restart issue identified, which I think most agree are not going to happen often, what other genuine day-to-day activities will be hampered?

.... but given that the new UI will cause many slowdowns with my work....

I'm genuinely curious how some are coming to this determination. What slowdowns will be caused? Besides the shutdown/restart issue identified, which I think most agree are not going to happen often, what other genuine day-to-day activities will be hampered?

You mean aside of the idiocy of hiding stuff for no reason (even you implicitly admitted this one), beyond the fact that we don't gain anything but extra work and wasted HOURS thanks to the completely surreal heavy-handed enforcement of this junk UI...?

No problem: enforcing this crap called Metro makes it nearly impossible to work without interruptions especially if you use any software that does not come with the OS by default.

It's pure insanity, a perfect showcase of the level of mind-boggling arrogance and utter cluelessness at the highest levels of MS, plain and simple.

It is actually very easy to perform the basics on (installing roles & features, troubleshooting tools, etc). The 'Tools' menu has most of the general options for administering servers in one place. Powershell can do everything else remotely. I don't know why there are such strong complaints about it really. Other than the UI change, everything underneath seems better and still familiar.

As for 'shutdown' not being one click away, I for one am glad it's been 'hidden away' because it reduces the risk of accidental shutdowns. It is funny to see all the explosions of rage for such simple things though

It's even funnier when someone suggests MS should 'hide it more' because of someone's inability to control his clicks on a server UI, someone's obvious lack of experience of managing a server but he goes on calling a well-qualified someone funny because to his fact-based rant about MS deciding things on his server...

...in short: if you are afraid of an "accidental shutdown" (sic!) of a server you don't belong to the server room/the server in question, you shouldn't be managing anything there, period.

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I think they're pushing strongly towards admins not actually using the local server for administration and instead to using Powershell and remote tools, or a 'management' server.

No kidding... however obvious it's still an idiotic idea and MS has no business in changing my admin behavior/practices at all especially without knowing jack about my environment.

To put it simply: just how TF you suggest I should run/use/manage my server-side applications from PS?

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I hope MS figures out how to properly market their products, I think that's their worst department. Zune pass (and the ZuneHD) was very decent and yet wasn't made widely available and not advertised properly, not to mention how terrible all of their other ads are. I hope they just advertise all the awesome things Server 2012 can do, not how 'great' Metro is on it.

Another funny comment: Zune ads vs server OS marketing...? Hate to burst your bubble but people never buy server OS based on ads/marketing but they actually test it first - you know, the very thing I am doing here....

You mean aside of the idiocy of hiding stuff for no reason (even you implicitly admitted this one), beyond the fact that we don't gain anything but extra work and wasted HOURS thanks to the completely surreal heavy-handed enforcement of this junk UI...?

No problem: enforcing this crap called Metro makes it nearly impossible to work without interruptions especially if you use any software that does not come with the OS by default.

It's pure insanity, a perfect showcase of the level of mind-boggling arrogance and utter cluelessness at the highest levels of MS, plain and simple.

Do you honestly feel this is going to add hours and hours to your daily routine? You've already made this sound like 'fact' before the software has even been released. Take your emotion out of it for 5 minutes. <3

You mean aside of the idiocy of hiding stuff for no reason (even you implicitly admitted this one), beyond the fact that we don't gain anything but extra work and wasted HOURS thanks to the completely surreal heavy-handed enforcement of this junk UI...?

No problem: enforcing this crap called Metro makes it nearly impossible to work without interruptions especially if you use any software that does not come with the OS by default.

It's pure insanity, a perfect showcase of the level of mind-boggling arrogance and utter cluelessness at the highest levels of MS, plain and simple.

Do you honestly feel this is going to add hours and hours to your daily routine? You've already made this sound like 'fact' before the software has even been released. Take your emotion out of it for 5 minutes. <3

.... but given that the new UI will cause many slowdowns with my work....

I'm genuinely curious how some are coming to this determination. What slowdowns will be caused? Besides the shutdown/restart issue identified, which I think most agree are not going to happen often, what other genuine day-to-day activities will be hampered?

You mean aside of the idiocy of hiding stuff for no reason (even you implicitly admitted this one), beyond the fact that we don't gain anything but extra work and wasted HOURS thanks to the completely surreal heavy-handed enforcement of this junk UI...?

No problem: enforcing this crap called Metro makes it nearly impossible to work without interruptions especially if you use any software that does not come with the OS by default.

It's pure insanity, a perfect showcase of the level of mind-boggling arrogance and utter cluelessness at the highest levels of MS, plain and simple.

I can't wrap my head around most of the complaints, but this one I just don't get. Server 2012 boots into the non-Metro classic desktop by default. Server Manager runs in the classic desktop. Heck all server software runs in the classic desktop. The only time you even see the Metro desktop is when you click start to open an app. Besides the fact the 'start menu' is full screen how is this any different then 2008 R2? Not only that but in a lot of ways Server Manager is the new start menu anyways because you use it too launch most server-based tools to begin.

Seriously, whatever complaints I have about the UI is so minor compared to excitement about what they are adding that it doesn't even come up when folks have asked for me feedback so far.

I think they're pushing strongly towards admins not actually using the local server for administration and instead to using Powershell and remote tools, or a 'management' server.

No kidding... however obvious it's still an idiotic idea and MS has no business in changing my admin behavior/practices at all especially without knowing jack about my environment.

Microsoft probably has more data about computer system usage and administration than any company on the planet. Especially Windows. Indeed, they may not know how your environment works, exactly, but they are in a very, very good position to determine exactly how people use and administrate Windows on an aggregate scale.

I believe that they did a very good job, because the activities that I need to perform against my test cluster are uniformly easier and quicker.

Setup, clustering, management, patching and monitoring are all improved. I don't know about your workload, but that list covers the activities that consume the gross majority of my time.

.... but given that the new UI will cause many slowdowns with my work....

I'm genuinely curious how some are coming to this determination. What slowdowns will be caused? Besides the shutdown/restart issue identified, which I think most agree are not going to happen often, what other genuine day-to-day activities will be hampered?

You mean aside of the idiocy of hiding stuff for no reason (even you implicitly admitted this one), beyond the fact that we don't gain anything but extra work and wasted HOURS thanks to the completely surreal heavy-handed enforcement of this junk UI...?

No problem: enforcing this crap called Metro makes it nearly impossible to work without interruptions especially if you use any software that does not come with the OS by default.

It's pure insanity, a perfect showcase of the level of mind-boggling arrogance and utter cluelessness at the highest levels of MS, plain and simple.

I can't wrap my head around most of the complaints, but this one I just don't get. Server 2012 boots into the non-Metro classic desktop by default.

It's so not true I cannot even believe you wrote this... Metro is the default arrival, with the clock, login etc, moreover once you logged in it's lurking in the background and jumps into your face as soon as you need to launch something.

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Server Manager runs in the classic desktop.

Once again the sloppy wording... Server manager runs in a window and launches by default, Metro is forced regardless of SM, this comment makes no sense unless you will never leave SM which is a rather ridiculous claim.

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Heck all server software runs in the classic desktop. The only time you even see the Metro desktop is when you click start to open an app. Besides the fact the 'start menu' is full screen how is this any different then 2008 R2? Not only that but in a lot of ways Server Manager is the new start menu anyways because you use it too launch most server-based tools to begin.

You mean aside of the fact that Start Menu did NOT force you into a different, fullscreen desktop running a hilarious Windows Phone UI, only to click on a fist-sized icon?

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Seriously, whatever complaints I have about the UI is so minor compared to excitement about what they are adding that it doesn't even come up when folks have asked for me feedback so far.

Good for you. Seriously, this is not an argument against my points, it's just some feedback about your 'excitement' level...

It's so not true I cannot even believe you wrote this... Metro is the default arrival, with the clock, login etc, moreover once you logged in it's lurking in the background and jumps into your face as soon as you need to launch something.

The Ctrl+Alt+Del screen is what bothers you? Are you kidding? That is not Metro.

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Once again the sloppy wording... Server manager runs in a window and launches by default, Metro is forced regardless of SM, this comment makes no sense unless you will never leave SM which is a rather ridiculous claim.

I honestly have no idea what this means. The classic desktop is the one Windows boots into. It has the taskbar on the bottom, just like 2008 R2, in fact with the exception of the Start Orb not being present in the lower left-hand corner it looks like like 2008 R2. Server Manager is not a Metro app. If it was it wouldn't load on that desktop, and it wouldn't be in a window (since Metro apps are all full screen).

You mean aside of the fact that Start Menu did NOT force you into a different, fullscreen desktop running a hilarious Windows Phone UI, only to click on a fist-sized icon?

And? Yes, it is a full screen start menu....is that it? Is that the thing that's driving you insane? I can't wrap my mind around it because I click on 'Start' and I type what I want or select it from the displayed list and it goes away and the app opens up (in the classic desktop) just like it does on 2008 R2.

I think they're pushing strongly towards admins not actually using the local server for administration and instead to using Powershell and remote tools, or a 'management' server.

No kidding... however obvious it's still an idiotic idea and MS has no business in changing my admin behavior/practices at all especially without knowing jack about my environment.

Microsoft probably has more data about computer system usage and administration than any company on the planet. Especially Windows.

It's a guess, most likely not true. And any company? I bet Nielsen knows a LOT more than MS, not to mention the Chinese government etc The fact that I never knew anyone who allowed any stats going back to MS, however anonymous they claimed it will be (they broke the faith long time ago, ahem), tells me that MS just use focus groups and user-submitted feedback like any other company, likely to be lower quality (inherently due to its sheer numbers and lower entry level for users) - which is just as good as anyone else's on the planet.

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Indeed, they may not know how your environment works, exactly, but they are in a very, very good position to determine exactly how people use and administrate Windows on an aggregate scale.

Again, I believe exactly the opposite is true: they have some data but they just decide crap as their idiotic policies suggest. And that's why I call the arrogant.

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I believe that they did a very good job, because the activities that I need to perform against my test cluster are uniformly easier and quicker.

This has nothing to do with the fact that they *&^%$ up the UI, completely. Which also means they have not done a great job. TO use a bad example: a little piece of shit will ruin even the greatest plate in the greatest restaurant - and it's a giant one, right in your face...

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Setup, clustering, management, patching and monitoring are all improved. I don't know about your workload, but that list covers the activities that consume the gross majority of my time.

Reality check: setup didn't change at all. Management could be better, could be worse, see idiotic ribbon crap and the usual "It's working so let's hide it!"... patching yes, monitoring I'm not sure.

At the end of the story it's about the usual story of any big corporation - MS' own bubble-based lifestyle where it's a "positive thing" regardless of how horrible it is in the field or even among the rank and file employees (it was reported several times how they are silently hoping Sinofsky will miserably fail...)

The fact that I never knew anyone who allowed any stats going back to MS, however anonymous they claimed it will be (they broke the faith long time ago, ahem), tells me that MS just use focus groups and user-submitted feedback like any other company, likely to be lower quality (inherently due to its sheer numbers and lower entry level for users) - which is just as good as anyone else's on the planet.

Anectodatal evidence is meaningless. If it meant anything then I could assume all companies kept feedback enabled because every system and every app has it enabled on our servers and workstations. Do I assume that is the case? Of course not, yet you assume no one is doing it because you don't or don't know anyone who does so therefore they must not get any data back.

UI's are incredibly subjective but literally half this thread is you posting about your hatred of the 'phone interface'. We get it, you hate the UI. It doesn't have to be repeated every second post.

It's so not true I cannot even believe you wrote this... Metro is the default arrival, with the clock, login etc, moreover once you logged in it's lurking in the background and jumps into your face as soon as you need to launch something.

The Ctrl+Alt+Del screen is what bothers you? Are you kidding? That is not Metro.

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Once again the sloppy wording... Server manager runs in a window and launches by default, Metro is forced regardless of SM, this comment makes no sense unless you will never leave SM which is a rather ridiculous claim.

I honestly have no idea what this means. The classic desktop is the one Windows boots into. It has the taskbar on the bottom, just like 2008 R2, in fact with the exception of the Start Orb not being present in the lower left-hand corner it looks like like 2008 R2. Server Manager is not a Metro app. If it was it wouldn't load on that desktop, and it wouldn't be in a window (since Metro apps are all full screen).

The fact that I never knew anyone who allowed any stats going back to MS, however anonymous they claimed it will be (they broke the faith long time ago, ahem), tells me that MS just use focus groups and user-submitted feedback like any other company, likely to be lower quality (inherently due to its sheer numbers and lower entry level for users) - which is just as good as anyone else's on the planet.

Anectodatal evidence is meaningless. If it meant anything then I could assume all companies kept feedback enabled because every system and every app has it enabled on our servers and workstations. Do I assume that is the case? Of course not, yet you assume no one is doing it because you don't or don't know anyone who does so therefore they must not get any data back.

My point has some arguments while yours sports nothing so it's rather funny you call mine meaningless...

...and his original point was pure speculation, in case you've missed it.

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UI's are incredibly subjective but literally half this thread is you posting about your hatred of the 'phone interface'. We get it, you hate the UI. It doesn't have to be repeated every second post.

FYI it's a topic about the RC I opened to relay my experience. It opened a huge can of worms, on both sides - trust me, your obvious denial about the issue is just as annoying...

What issue(s) am I denying exactly? At no point have I said the new UI is not without flaws or that I even like it. What I did post about what how I can't understand your hatred of it. Most of your complaints seem exaggerated or without merit, in my opinion.

Setup, clustering, management, patching and monitoring are all improved. I don't know about your workload, but that list covers the activities that consume the gross majority of my time.

Reality check: setup didn't change at all. Management could be better, could be worse, see idiotic ribbon crap and the usual "It's working so let's hide it!"... patching yes, monitoring I'm not sure.

The ability to manage groups of servers, install roles and features on those groups and then to get status and alerts on those systems, as a group is the biggest single advance in how I manage my Windows systems in a very long time. I would consider elements of that to be "Setup" and thus, I do not agree with your contention that it has not changed.

What issue(s) am I denying exactly? At no point have I said the new UI is not without flaws or that I even like it. What I did post about what how I can't understand your hatred of it. Most of your complaints seem exaggerated or without merit, in my opinion.

szlevi, are you using the same Server 2012 as the rest of us? It boots to the desktop and opens Server Manager. The Start screen doesn't open until you open it. Pressing Start (keyboard, hot corner, whatever) and typing starts searching, just like 2008 R2.

I've been running the Windows 8 Beta (haven't upgraded to the RC yet) for about a month now after the hard drive died on my machine. I was previously running Server 2008 R2 as my desktop OS so that I had access to Hyper-V and could remotely manage my other Windows Server machines. So far my workflow hasn't changed at all. I run all the same desktop apps (Office, Lync, IE, Chrome, etc) and have zero Metro apps. It took me about a minute to figure out how to the get the new Start menu to pop up and find programs but after that it hasn't been an issue. In the long run I don't really see the full screen Start menu being much slower than the previous one, and if that switch is causing you to lose hours worth of time (even over a year time period) I'd hazard a guess that you have an atypical environment to administer. I spend most of my time in an admin interface of one type or another, not starting lots of things from the Start menu.

This is just my experience with Server 2012 as an admin workstation, I have no experience using Windows 8 as a desktop, but I wouldn't be surprised if the situation is the same as long as you're running non-metro apps. I can say for sure I'm excited to start testing all of the new functionality in Server 2012 though!

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” -George Bernard Shaw

As far as I can see, there is nothing Server 2008 can do that Server 2012 can't, but a lot the other way around.

While it will take some time to learn and a change in some methods I think it's worth it for what 2012 looks capable of. There will no doubt be some issues and for those not wanting to deal with them it's probably best to wait for R2, or Server 2014 (or whatever it's called) where the 'didn't quite work in the real world' things will be fixed up. I don't see the missing start menu as one of those things.

If I'm still losing hours just using the interface in a year's time I'd be wondering if I'm suitable for the job...

I wonder if some people get this bent out of shape on or just before January 1st?

Why does the year have to change?I spent all last year writing one year, and now I have to remember a completely different year! This will waste countless hours of my time!!!

Aside of the fact that it's a pretty stupid attempt - proper analogy would be if the *format* of the date would change - I didn't realize some of you actually pay to use dates... which godforsaken part of the world is this?

I find the Server Manager a really good interface for managing multiple servers.

It has been distilled down. Events, BPA ANalyzer, CP/Memory, Roles.

The left hand side has the servers grouped by Role for quick access.

The tools menu gets you to the proper mmc/tool based on the server you are accessing.

I feel this setup is well thought out and very practical.

Right - except this has nothing to do with the junk called Metro...

You do realise that this thread is called 'Windows Server 2012 RC is out' and not 'Let's go completely batshit crazy about the Metro interface', right? Other people can have opinions on things OTHER than Metro ...

I find the Server Manager a really good interface for managing multiple servers.

It has been distilled down. Events, BPA ANalyzer, CP/Memory, Roles.

The left hand side has the servers grouped by Role for quick access.

The tools menu gets you to the proper mmc/tool based on the server you are accessing.

I feel this setup is well thought out and very practical.

Right - except this has nothing to do with the junk called Metro...

You do realise that this thread is called 'Windows Server 2012 RC is out' and not 'Let's go completely batshit crazy about the Metro interface', right? Other people can have opinions on things OTHER than Metro ...

Sure I do - I opened it. I just felt like he is responding to me, that's all.