I think of the Hell's Angels as a rebellious counterculture. I think the violence that ocurred at Altamont was a real fucker. As I said before, I don't agree with their violent ways of resolution, but I admire their rebellious stance.

redrabid wrote:To PF and SA: You say that you are interested in the 60s. Well, I take your word for it, but if you really want to know the time and place for a better understanding of your favorite music, I think you have to try harder.

Well, as for understanding, I do the best I can. It is impossible to understand a decade, and I know that. No one, even those who were there and looking back on it, can understand everything that happened. And no, I am certainly not saying that people who were there aren't of any authority on the subject, but only that no one is a true authority. It was a great time for some people, a terrible time for others, I know that too. I have done all that I can to understand (remember, I'm only fourteen and have been learning about the decade other than the music for only a few years now) and will continue to by reading. I regularly go through old newspaper archives, read biographies, autobiographies, and literature popular at the time, watch documentaries, and read interviews. I would say that that's trying pretty hard, especially for someone who is not truly obligated to do anything.

Even so, I do all of that knowing that every view I am exposed to will be slanted. Also knowing that no matter how I try, I was not there, and will not have been there no matter what. All I can do is educate myself, and I have made a point in doing so.

redrabid wrote:As for the rebellious stance of the Hell's Angels. I believe they were not rebellious at all. They were in my view just the zenith of reigning American bourgeouis (maybe conservative is the better word) values. The Tea Party on bike.

I agree. The Hell's Angels were an incredibly violent group, and I don't approve of what they did. Sure, maybe some of them got along well with the San Francisco crowd, but that doesn't make me approve of the things they did.

I think that what SaturdayAfternoon is saying (and do correct me if I'm wrong) is that they were true counterculture,-- again, sorry if I misinterpreted-- and I don't know enough about them to really judge that. What I do know are some of their actions, and I am completely against nearly all of them. I don't think that violence is necessary to be counterculture, although many countercultures are violent. The Weathermen are another one that is.

I like what you had to say PF, and I raise my glass to your intelligence and insight. The Hell's Angel's were really an image of most of the youth in America, only taken to the extreme, before "the change", or counter-culture. We were all on the violent side and our biggest thrill was a riot, and there were several. I use the words, "before we all changed". The change was profound. We became strong and comfortable and confident with the new culture. So a lot of the time we had to make a choice, quite often for some, violence or non-violence, fight or flight. Yes one thing is for absolute "certainty". We had to change "ourselves" first! The ingredients were Music, Hallucinogens, Cannabis, and garb and appearance and peace signs.It wasn't long before these efforts became a sort of common knowledge and the culture was "takin off" and peace and beauty were in the air. It was non-violence of the collective Youths own free will. It was not a peace because of AK47s, 60 cals, M1-s and 20 mms aimed at them.And PF is absolutely right!

No one, even those who were there and looking back on it, can understand everything that happened.

As for the Military, many did their tour and immediately joined the counter-culture on their return. [Jimmy Hendrix, Country Joe McDonald, almost all the people I knew, etc, etc.] This is fact. Not everyone though, in fact, there was probably never more than half of the Youth in the counter-culture. Others in the military, of course, loved it (war). That is the human nature part. But just because a marine was at Khe Sanh or the My Lai Massacre, does not mean they did not get out and join the counter-culture. Almost all he ones I knew did go Hippy, and they were in the shit. So the Military was counter-culture to. I'd say 80% of my Destroyer were counter-culture, by 1971. Every day someone turned themselves in for drugs, in order to get a "general discharge". About 10 years later all those general discharges were upgraded to "honorable". As a male, our choice was Canada(never come back), jail, a 2 year Army/marine draft, or join another branch of the military for 4 years. For a female, it was find a new boyfriend, go to the mall (Just Saying!). So it was the same and different for everybody. The war on the counter-culture was vicious (AKA war on drugs), and the Government was very successful at returning violence to the streets of America in order to eradicate the counter-culture. Most of the people I knew, including myself, left the Hippy life around the end of the 70s, although I never completely returned to the establishment.So on that famous decade I leave you with the Grateful Dead;

I spent a little time on the mountain, and thehill. Things went down we don't understand, but I think in time we will. Now, I don't know but I was told in the heat of the sun a man died ofcold. Keep on coming or stand and wait, with the sun so dark and the hour solate. You can't overlook the lack, jack, of any o...ther highway to ride. It's got no signs or dividing lines and very few rules to guide.

And JA of course

Small things like reasons are put in a jar Whatever happened to wishes wished on a star? Was it just something that I made up for fun? I saw you, I saw you, comin' back to me

Where have all the young men gone? Long time passingWhere have all the young men gone? Long time agoWhere have all the young men gone? Gone for soldiers every oneWhen will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Idolizing rapists, drugdealers, murderers (even European "chapters" have a long criminal record) is an insult to everything the counterculture stood for. This downplaying of violence and crime gave also rise to the "Weatherman", the "Rote Armee Fraktion", the "Brigade Rosso". Their activities damaged the progressive movements all over the world. There is no excuse for violence. We should condemn every movement or organisation that considers violence a justified means to reach its end.Of course, lot's of people defended the Angels, even back then. Well, I can understand that. Because of their drug addictions they were dependend on the Angels. Which is why the lyrics of "Mexico" always make me feel very uncomfortable.Old Blue is right, the Hell's Angels are psychopaths.Some very tarnishing books have been written about this organized crime syndicate. Feed your head and re-think.Where is Frank Zappa now that we need him?

I too often think about that. And it makes my blood boil thinking about how great people such as Frank Zappa are gone, while there's so many evil people in this world who are still alive. Why won't the bad people go away??

I'm also a wrinkly that lived through the 60's (I'm 58 now) and it is great to see that you young'uns are rediscovering some of what made it such a spectacular musical time.My only claim to 'fame' is having to leave the Rolling Stones' free Hyde Park concert before the end to go round the corner to the Royal Albert Hall to see Chuck Berry followed by The Who... happy days!PF: If you're into The Kinks and Pink Floyd may I recommend the little known English band Caravan? Rather than me rabbiting on, check out Amazon. The best stuff has been well reissued, and there are great reviews on Amazon.co.uk. And they're still alive!!! In fact they have been better served than Grace has in getting the early stuff out.

I think we will forever view things the way we do. I can't understand how one person can view the 60s so horribly and then another see nothing horrible about the 60s at all. Because I have my own life experiences and knowledge that led me to love the 60s, but to know it for what it is.

In other words, don't yell at people for not having the experiences you've had. They have their own life and will experience it the way they're meant to. Even down to opinions on a counterculture.

The 60s were a fabulous time. Great music, great people, great fashion, great feeling. But there was also a ton of negativity - still dealing with racism, there was feminist movement, the protests, the hippies vs the "straights", in '69 the start of the GLBT rights movement, and all sorts of things happening. It was a roller coaster of a decade, no doubt. But it still remains one of my favorite time periods to look back on.

With you standing here I could tell the world what it means to loveTo go on from here I can't use words, they don't say enough

Don't get me wrong. I loved the sixties and still do. It was the decade of my youth (I turned 59 a few months ago) and I had a great time. Also the 60s were very optimistic times, despite all the negativity that was also very determining for that decade. Being young in optimistic times, what else could I wish for? That optimistic feeling (however unjustified it proved to be) made me into who I am today. I loved learning, I loved going to school, I discovered music, sex and politics. But even then, I was aware of the darker side of the sixties, the to me disturbing growth of the drug culture, but especially the political naivity "war is over, if you want to", glorifying revolution (I still can remember long discussions about the Cuban revolution and Che Guevara). So, I can understand very well why young people are fascinated with the 60s. But it wasn't paradise, quite a many problems of today came into being then. If you are interested in that decade, you must be willing to face the facts. Don't believe the hype.And these times we're living in now, aren't all bad. A lot of changes are going on. Participate and enjoy yourself. Good music is sill being made.

I know firsthand what drugs can do to someone, believe me. I've seen it enough in my own family to know what it's like. But that doesn't mean I'm against the usage of drugs. Do whatever you'd like, I really don't mind.

The 60s are what you make of them. You prefer to constantly remind people that they were not all fun and games. While that's great, why not let others think for themselves? It doesn't hurt anyone if they do believe the 60s was the best time in history. It's their belief. If people are meant to be "realists" or negative, time will bring that on them when it is ready. Don't force it on someone.

And while we're on this, a belief I have on why the 60s counterculture ended the way it did was because of the drugs. That and it was just time for it to be over*.

*Yes, I'm one of those believers in fate and "if it could be different, it would be different".

With you standing here I could tell the world what it means to loveTo go on from here I can't use words, they don't say enough

A bit of "Weltschmerz" is common for young people. But sometimes it seems to get in the way of their appreciation of the chances and opportunities of today. Limiting myself to music, I disagree with the here often voiced opinion that music isn't as good anymore as it was in the 60s. As for image, it was important too; JA carefully crafted an image for itself, dont you think? Anyway there are lot's of bands around nowadays for whom image is not important. Terrible music was dominant in the charts in the 60s too. And by the way, The Moody Blues, so enthousiastically talked about in this forum, were considered back then as a not so very good group, to say the least. But maybe we were wrong. Just as they are about today's music.Of course, I am not much of a believer, as most of you will have understood by now.

Music isn't always about how it sounds. It's about my emotional reaction to it. That's what makes me love a certain band or a decade. And for me, I don't react as strongly to something that was released in the 80s-00s...I don't feel a connection to it.

Yes, image is important to a degree. But the music should remain numero uno, which I think JA did keep that as its main focus. That's why it lasted, albeit in 3 different forms, for so long.

And just because it is 60s doesn't mean I'm an instant fan of it. There's a lot of songs from the 60s and 70s that I frankly hate.

With you standing here I could tell the world what it means to loveTo go on from here I can't use words, they don't say enough