Wednesday, July 13, 2011

I recently got into a fairly ridiculous debate on Facebook with some people who think that psychedelic drugs can get you to the same place as meditation. I don’t really know why I bothered. Except that people who advocate this position are so passionate about it and it’s really easy to pull their chains. It makes them crazy when someone with meditation experience disagrees. It's like when you bother a fire ant mound.

During the discussion, one of the supporters of drug abuse as a way to gain spiritual insight started in with the time worn cliché that drugs are like taking a helicopter to the top of a mountain rather than climbing it. You get the same breathtaking view as someone who has climbed the mountain. But you get there much quicker and more easily. “You can’t deny it’s exactly the same view,” one guy said. But, in fact, I would unequivocally deny that it’s the same view. It’s not. Not at all.

Metaphors always fall apart if you press them too much. But I like this one because it shows exactly what the problem is when you start saying drugs will do for you the same thing as meditation but faster and without all the muss and fuss.

Let’s say you met a veteran mountaineer with over a quarter century of climbing experience, a person who has written books on mountain climbing and routinely personally instructs others in the art of climbing. And let’s imagine what would happen if you tried to convince this guy that people who take helicopters to the tops of mountains get everything that mountain climbers get and get it a whole lot easier.

The mountain climber would certainly tell you that the breathtaking view a guy who takes a helicopter to the top of a mountain gets is not in any way, shape or form the same view that a person who climbs the mountain herself gets.

To the mountain climber, the guy in the helicopter is just a hyperactive thrill seeker who wants nothing more than to experience a pretty view without putting any effort into it. The helicopter guy thinks the goal of mountain climbing is to be on top of the mountain and that climbing is an inefficient way to accomplish this goal. He just doesn’t get it. At all.

The helicopter guy misses out on the amazing sights there are to see on the way up. He doesn’t know the thrill of mastering the mountain through his own efforts. He doesn’t know the hardships and dangers involved in making the climb. And he’ll never know the awesome wonder of descending the mountain back into familiar territory. All he’s done is given some money to a person who owns a helicopter. He probably couldn’t even find the mountain himself, let alone make it to the top. When there are no helicopters around, the poor guy is helplessly grounded.

If the helicopter guy claims that he has reached the same place as the mountain climber, the mountain climber knows in ways the helicopter guy can’t even fathom that the helicopter guy is a fool.

To a mountain climber, the goal of mountain climbing is not the moment of sitting on top enjoying the view. That’s just one small part of the experience. It may not even be the best part. To a mountain climber, every view, from every point on the mountain is significant and wonderful.

People who think that the pinnacle of the experience is that moment of being right on the tippy-top, don’t understand the experience at all. The poor attention addled things probably never will.

What I am working on in meditation involves every single moment of life. So-called “peak experiences” can be fun. But they no more define what life is about that so-called “mundane experiences.” When you start making such separations, you have already lost the most precious thing in life, the ability to fully immerse yourself in every experience.

No. Taking a helicopter to the top of a mountain is not at all the same thing as climbing it for yourself. To insist that it is proves that you don’t understand the first thing about mountains.

My attitude about drug use and its relationship to spiritual experience has been characterized as intolerant and fundamentalist. One clever-trousers on Twitter said, “Brad Warner's shadows are bigger than Genpo Roshi's. The guy is so blind he probably shouldn't even have a driver’s license.” Whatever that’s supposed to mean. But my attitude has no more to do with fundamentalism or conservativism than our fictional mountain climber’s attitude about rich, hasty pleasure junkies who take joy rides in helicopters. It is unambiguously clear that drugs and meditation cannot take you to the same place simply by the very nature of the experiences. They are not even in the same league of things. The comparison between the two is entirely spurious and unworthy of examination.

People who say these things about drugs and meditation may have tried drugs but most have never really attempted much meditation. Oh maybe they’ve gone to a handful of yoga classes and done shavasana. Or maybe they’ve been to a Vipassana retreat or even rented a cabin at Tassajara one summer. But they don’t have any real depth of experience with meditation to compare to their drug experiences.

I’ve run the mountain metaphor into the ground. So I’ll stop here. I’ll leave it to the people in the comments section to come up with unnecessary and wrong-headed further variations on the metaphor (like talking about the views you can get from helicopters that mountain climbers can't see or some such dumb ass thing -- metaphors can only be stretched so far before they become absurd).

As a person in recovery that turned to Zen and meditation in part in response to my addiction I have to agree that drugs and meditation do not achieve or promote the same thing.

My use of drugs was ultimately an attempt to lock in some "peak experience" and only worked to strengthen my attachments to certain "positive" states.

In meditation, I work to lessen attachments, and thus the sufferring that ensues from having them.

Now, my position is open to the claim that "Youre an addict and simply cannot handle drugs/alcohol" My point remains the same, the use of drugs is merely an artificial means to create and extend certain states and does little more than promote attachment to those states. Meditation does just the opposite.

Brad said:The helicopter guy misses out on the amazing sights there are to see on the way up. He doesn’t know the thrill of mastering the mountain through his own efforts. He doesn’t know the hardships and dangers involved in making the climb. And he’ll never know the awesome wonder of descending the mountain back into familiar territory. All he’s done is given some money to a person who owns a helicopter. He probably couldn’t even find the mountain himself, let alone make it to the top. When there are no helicopters around, the poor guy is helplessly grounded.

If the helicopter guy claims that he has reached the same place as the mountain climber, the mountain climber knows in ways the helicopter guy can’t even fathom that the helicopter guy is a fool.

Also, I would add...At the end of the day, that helicopter doesn't even take you to the top of the mountain - it drops you off at the Mall of America on Black Friday... and since the poor tripper has never even been to the top of the mountain, he cant tell the difference.

As someone who has meditated for 16 years plus and who hikes Colorado's 14ners there are absolutely no shortcuts to the "top of the mountain" so to speak.

Last year I hiked four hours up to the summit of a mountain that also has a highway leading to the top. During a total of a nine hour hike I had plenty of time to experience the journey, push myself to my limits, and experience an enlightenment of a personal kind. The people I met at the top who drove up didn't "get" why you'd hike up a mountain if you could just drive. I couldn't help but notice the people who didn't get it where mostly over-weight and to me just looked plain old lazy.

Did I enjoy the view from the top of the mountain more than they did. Hell yeah I did, because I earned it!

I'm curious to know your thoughts on the research that was recently done at Johns Hopkins. The upshot is that the investigators found that even a single dose of a hallucinogenic, under controlled conditions, can have a profound and long lasting impact on the mental well being of the person who takes it.

To stretch your metaphor, it's like being flown to the top of a mountain, realizing what you're missing, and devoting your life to learning to climb.

I'm not a drug user myself, so I can't speak to the issue directly, but I do find the research interesting and compelling.

I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that meditation and psychedelic drug use aren't even remotely close to being the same journey, much less two separate means of reaching the same destination. Yet I disagree with the notion that drug use is a "lazy", "self-destructive" or "foolish" means of obtaining spiritual insight, or that it is somehow unrewarding. My personal experience tells me otherwise. Why so judgmental?

yes and no. True, there are no shortcuts to the summit of a 14er, and the copter ride really misses out on the experience, but the seasoned peakbagger...as opposed to the bogus tourist-stoner....might at some point like enhance his experience .....so, he smokes a joint after ascending White Mountain, or rather he and his climbing partner Miss Goodie do...and then......:]..

(psychedelics are another matter....and there is cause for concern...an overly-moralistic or Osiris forbid, mormonic-pink approach is improper as well)

I'm brand new to meditation and Buddhism and I've heard both sides of the meditation arguments. My problem with drug induced states of "meditation" is that you don't know what is real and what is not.

The things you experience during meditation without drugs is more self in-depth. Your able to clearly look at each thought and wonder why your that thought came to mind.

When you take drugs (and yes, I do occasionally smoke for pain reasons)your mind is cloudy and the images and thoughts that appear are not always real. In other words, you would never think of them if you were not in drugs. Plus, anything that makes you feel like crap or exhausted the next day doesn't / shouldn't be classified as 'good for you'.

SO - using drugs to get to a personal more in-depth meditative state doesn't make sense, at least not to me either.

I've been meditating over a decade on a weekly basis, and for five years on a daily basis. When I was younger I did lots of drugs, including lots of hallucinogens. I would have to say that meditation and hallucinogens are not the same thing. Not even close.

Man, I wish you didn't waste so much time responding to crap comments and personal attacks. For those of us who buy your books and read your blog, it's just not necessary, and you just end up with crap on your hands. I, and I think others too, read you 'cause we are interested in your life as lived, your insights, your take on things.

Another post about drugs vs. meditation? Judging by the comments on the previous post some readers could use another post about psychiatry vs. meditation. Or even just psychiatry vs. psychology when seeking professional help.

The irony here is that Brad has taken LSD and it has forever altered his brain. Are his insights because of the drug or in spite of it? We don't know and neither does he. All we know is what he believes.

Many people became interested in Buddhism because of what certain drugs showed them. Whether that's right or wrong or good or bad is not the point. Many like Brad survived and moved on. But the survivors never would have entered into Buddhism and never persevered had they not glimpsed a view from the mountain top. And yes, a lot of people fall off the mountain, but people die without ever leaving home too..

I wish I could say it was a worthless experience but I can't. But I understand why it is a good idea to say it is.

The thing here, I guess, is that most people (and not just the druggies) expect the path to be about experiences. Which it isn't. At all. Of course, anyone who has spent 100 hours + on any kind of zafu got there expecting at least some sort of pay-off, but there's always a point where you either grow up and just keep whacking the weeds or stay back and keep smoking them (metaphorically or otherwise). If that point does not arrive, either your teacher sucks or you haven't been paying attention.

i thought that you're already bored on this topic. and lo and behold, there you go again with another blog post! :) just kidding. i really appreciate the attention you put on this topic on my FB page even if we still end up not seeing eye to eye on this issue. now that i got that out of the way...

for the most part i agree with what you posted here. that's why i personally prefer meditation practice over drugs/psychedelics/entheogens because the former has been time-tested and the latter has more dangers and risk of incarceration. like i said, i haven't used psychedelics myself. not even once. so based on your zero-tolerance policy i could claim that i have the moral high ground, even over you, since you tried drugs and got traumatized yourself. but this moral high ground debate on drugs (such as the "War On Drugs") is another topic altogether so i'll refrain from expounding on this, at least on this discussion. my view is more on the *pragmatic* and *scientific* perspectives on the potential of drugs to *alter and transform consciousness*.

again, i would recommend your readers to see Sam Harris's position on this issue. see: "Drugs and the Meaning of Life" - http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-life/ - i'm with Harris on this one. we share the same nuanced view on this issue. and you can't accuse him of not meditating because he's a long-time practitioner of Vipassana meditation.

so my first point, how come Sam Harris, a long-time meditator has a different attitude on psychedelics than you? i haven't seen you addressed this point. you continue to resort to simplistic and metaphorical arguments which to me are dead ends. let's talk evidence and science. let's talk about the empirical findings on psychedelics and meditation. then let's compare the two instead of just flat out saying that drug users are "losers" and meditators are the real deal.

the main issue i have with you is your outright dismissal of psychedelics as a valid way of transforming consciousness. your bias with meditation (more specifically with Zen style Buddhism) is so deeply ingrained that you don't (or can't) address the nuanced position that i hold on this issue. i'm not sure whether you truly understand my nuanced position at all, or whether you just continue to intentionally ignore it and then resort to a simplistic (or caricatured straw-man) version of my carefully-crafted arguments. to me that wreaks of intellectual dishonesty. i'll refrain from labeling you as a "fundamentalist." i acknowledge that labeling you like that is unfair and unwarranted. but it seems to me that you're being intellectually dishonest about this issue by not addressing the nuanced position i'm pointing to and ignoring the scientific facts from recent research that *drugs do transform people's consciousness and improve their well-being when used in moderation, optimal dosage, and right setting.*

i thought that you're already bored on this topic. and lo and behold, there you go again with another blog post! :) just kidding. i really appreciate the attention you put on this topic on my FB page even if we still end up not seeing eye to eye on this issue. now that i got that out of the way...

for the most part i agree with what you posted here. that's why i personally prefer meditation practice over drugs/psychedelics/entheogens because the former has been time-tested and the latter has more dangers and risk of incarceration. like i said, i haven't used psychedelics myself. not even once. so based on your zero-tolerance policy i could claim that i have the moral high ground, even over you, since you tried drugs and got traumatized yourself. but this moral high ground debate on drugs (such as the "War On Drugs") is another topic altogether so i'll refrain from expounding on this, at least on this discussion. my view is more on the *pragmatic* and *scientific* perspectives on the potential of drugs to *alter and transform consciousness*.

again, i would recommend your readers to see Sam Harris's position on this issue. see: "Drugs and the Meaning of Life" - http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-life/ - i'm with Harris on this one. we share the same nuanced view on this issue. and you can't accuse him of not meditating because he's a long-time practitioner of Vipassana meditation.

so my first point, how come Sam Harris, a long-time meditator has a different attitude on psychedelics than you? i haven't seen you addressed this point. you continue to resort to simplistic and metaphorical arguments which to me are dead ends. let's talk evidence and science. let's talk about the empirical findings on psychedelics and meditation. then let's compare the two instead of just flat out saying that drug users are "losers" and meditators are the real deal.

the main issue i have with you is your outright dismissal of psychedelics as a valid way of transforming consciousness. your bias with meditation (more specifically with Zen style Buddhism) is so deeply ingrained that you don't (or can't) address the nuanced position that i hold on this issue. i'm not sure whether you truly understand my nuanced position at all, or whether you just continue to intentionally ignore it and then resort to a simplistic (or caricatured straw-man) version of my carefully-crafted arguments. to me that wreaks of intellectual dishonesty. i'll refrain from labeling you as a "fundamentalist." i acknowledge that labeling you like that is unfair and unwarranted. but it seems to me that you're being intellectually dishonest about this issue by not addressing the nuanced position i'm pointing to and ignoring the scientific facts from recent research that *drugs do transform people's consciousness and improve their well-being when used in moderation, optimal dosage, and right setting.*

Then again, I've seen lots of definitions of meditation, and most of them just aren't what I think of as meditation, which is pretty much the Zen definition, such as it is (or isn't).

If some people see meditation only as a means by which to reach point A, B, or C, and if drugs are a short cut that can get them to point A, B, or C (whatever those points may be) then I guess the two can be compared.

But I think the whole thing can't even be argued unless the terms are defined. To the best of my understanding, there is no way that any sort of drugs can be compared to Zen meditation--the two aren't even close, not even as close as apples and oranges. Not even in the same food group.

Probably a non sequitur or something along those lines. Spurious correlation, or something.

Brad, as the one who used the helicopter metaphor in that facebook thread you mentioned, I'm disappointed how you misrepresent my position.

I wrote:

"Like it or not, they [the helicopter tourists] have the same gorgeous view up there as you have. Unfortunately, our brain is agnostic how it got into the neuronal state of Satori. Does that make meditation useless? No, that's a misrepresentation. If you climbed up the mountain, you have something the helicopter tourists don't have."

Your point that the mountaineer has something the helicopter tourists don't have is moot, I already made it myself.

Besides I made clear that using LSD without spiritual practice will not achieve much. So I simply have nothing in common with that view you attack in your blog.

The problem with the helicopter analogy, and it is only an analogy, is the view at the top. The assumption is that the view is the same, that the mountain climber and helicopter passenger do indeed reach the same place and get the same view. How can you be so sure that the brain state of meditation and the brain state of someone on drugs is the same "view"?

Actually, Rene, you posit that kensho and meditation are the same thing. The point has been made, by Brad and others here, that it isn't at all. You are hung up on the helicopter/mountain view metaphor that you are both using.

Next, you are assuming that the mountain view is the point of meditative practice. It isn't. Brad, and others, have also made this point here.

In zen, "goal is no goal." Or, to be more specific, "it is the journey that is to be valued, not the prize that awaits at its end."

From someone who has done a fair amount of both LSD and zazen, over a ten year period, I can testify that it is silly to claim either that they are the same or that one is inherently superior to the other if the goal is mental balance and well being. They are two different tools in the tool box. Zazen changes the terrain in the way a river does; slow and steady yet powerful. LSD is like a forest fire, ravaging and destroying but allowing for a renewal and regrowth.

When the many are reduced to the one, to where will the one be reduced?

Maybe people can check the discussion on facebook. My points about using LSD are far more nuanced than the straw men Brad first erects and then ridicules to let all use of psychedelics appear stupid.

About the mountain climbing metaphor, it's just that, an analogy. In which I clearly stated that landing on the mountain with a helicopter and climbing up are not the same experience. This means I'm not making that error Brad accuses me and ridicules me for.

That the mind can produce experiences that are makyo or illusionary is something that one can become aware of with LSD, not only with Zen. There are people who believe they are watching different realities on LSD, not their mind, and get lost in stories and fantasies. That's delusional and the result of an improper setting and improper guidance. But no one who wants to find out something about cars is watching traffic accidents and bases his conclusions about cars on this. Unless he has an agenda.

I was believing Zen is about awakening. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's about the hours you spend on the zafu, the clothing, the rituals. If you're into that, do it, and no argument, LSD cannot give you that experience.

However the trippy part on LSD is not the substance, it's the mind. It's the mind under a magnifying glass. The same mind you watch when you sit on the zafu, because there is no other mind to watch - with or without LSD in the end doesn't matter.

who cares about the the mountain climbing metaphor? that's a dead end argument on both sides. here's my point from an esoteric perspective, which Brad seems to ignore (or unable to fathom) altogether.

people who use drugs and people who meditate are just as susceptible of being trapped in the "Intermediate Realm"(see my blog post for more context: http://www.c4chaos.com/2009/10/the-science-of-enlightenment-intermediate-realms-of-power/)

the main difference between the two approaches is that drugs could catapult a person deep into the subconscious much *faster* and more *consistently* than meditation (at least when compared to beginning meditators and those who have no experience with meditation). hence, the danger of using (and abusing) drugs.

but the fact that drugs are dangerous doesn't *invalidate* it of its potential to transform consciousness. if the experiencer already has a *healthy psychological framework* from which to interpret his/her experience in the "Intermediate Realm" then drug-induced states can be used as skillful means to observe the three characteristics of experience: unsatisfactoriness, impermanance, and no self as thing.

in point of fact, this is what the Tibetan Buddhists do in their dream yoga practice. the experience in dream yoga (or lucid dream practice) is similar to drug-induced states. the practitioner "sees" magnificent dreamscapes, creatures, aliens, mythological beings, etc. in the dream. the challenge for the practitioner is to see beyond the forms in the dream state. this is the same challenge that people have to deal with in a drug-induced state. that's why it's important to approach drug use with utmost care and guidance because it's so easy to induce that state compared with meditation and lucid dreaming.

and that is the point that Brad continue to ignore. maybe because he doesn't have much experience with dream yoga, or maybe because he was deeply traumatized by his drug experience. i have no issue with Brad's direct-plunge-into-the-Source approach (aka Zen). my issue with him is his bias with meditation and his outright dismissal of drugs and its potential to transform consciousness.

Brad's clearly got a bee in his bonnet about this stuff. I'm disappointed to see how it's rendered him incapable of hearing what people with a different experience and a different view are actually saying.

I read the FB comments yesterday. Rene T is right:

"My points about using LSD are far more nuanced than the straw men Brad first erects and then ridicules to let all use of psychedelics appear stupid."

Brad writes: "...people who advocate this position are so passionate about it and it’s really easy to pull their chains. It makes them crazy when someone with [a different] experience disagrees."

Forcing kensho experiences, whether by drugs or Genpo-ish exercises, is not at all the point of zazen. It is a designedly pointless activity because that's where freedom lives. Taking/doing anything that has a corresponding result on the mind is SO not what shikantaza is about.As to the Tibetans and others of their ilk, I cannot say other than it is not shikantaza and that's all we soto zinners can reasonably comment on. Do them if you like, but taking drugs is an experience unto itself and should not be confused with the daily, lifelong activity of zazen.

Also, zen folks generally do not go around suggesting that we are accomplishing great things on the cushion or having wild, visionary experiences. Druggers are the ones who are likely to suggest that they are tapping into something that they assume zen folks are tapping into. Silliness.

Hi Brad, nice post and well stated. I just posted something Seung Sahn said about LSD on my blog, http://zenmirror.blogspot.com/2011/07/special-medicine-and-big-business.html as it was too long to post as a comment here. Not exactly the same but the same intention.

C, you miss the point. Zen is not about "spiritual epiphanies" as the good Doctor suggests. Other traditions, maybe, but not soto zen. So, I commend him on his research but still say the point is being missed. Any striving for a "different state" is precisely the problem.

Like Brad, I don't believe drugs have anything much to do (other, perhaps, than an initial prizing open of the doors of perception/kindling of the will to the truth) with the practice of Zen/Buddhism, so I don't disagree with the thrust of his rant. But to characterise the position of all who've taken issue with him - or sought to relate some aspect of the one to the other - as 'ridiculous' 'crazy' and 'dumb ass' - that’s what gets my goat.

Some of the most absurd and poetic songs that were written in Quebec (in French) in the 60'ies were actually never done on drugs. Drugs, say the authors, only came later. Some of the most delirious poems and songs in both French (France) and English (and I should also add Germany) had nothing to do with drugs.If anyone should read William Burroughs, even he says that he would never write on drugs: too fucked up for writing. Writing came during the "dry" moments.Then, RM Pirsig says something of interest in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance": he says that his cycling partner had at first thought of sending his wife by plane to California, while they would do the road from Milwaukee to Ca on the road. But then he had dissuaded them to do so, because they would have been totally at odds: she would not have understood what they had in their minds, with mile upon mile of boredom, but with the sight of the mountains at the end of that boredom. And he adds that something there is something to be gained of that boredom. (He then alludes to the practice of Zazen).

What is also commonly misconstrued about peak drug experiences and "enlightenment" is that they are a relatively early stage on the path. This stage is also followed by a depressive, dark stage where it is common to turn around and try to climb back up that peak again... where then they slide down and then repeat...

Progress happens when that peak experience isn't seeked anymore and you then move forward into stages of equanimity. This is where enlightenment happens and this state becomes abiding. It doesn't go away like an eight hour acid trip, because you are able to recognize it and tap into it under all circumstances.

Twenty years ago, I took psylocibins mushrooms.I still want I never did that, when I see how it's been difficult to support the consequences.When I discover zazen a few years after, perhaps ti's been so difficult in the beginning.But I prefer to practice something natural, and live a natural experience, than having an artificial experience, that is a perturbation on a normal condition, more than a return to what we are when we are just as we are.

Living a normal life and supporting that is much more a spiritual realisation and a great challenge, than having the experience of a special psychic statements, that I won't remember, won't integrate, that won't be useful in my normal life.

As Peter Coyote said in a recent Sun Magazein article: "...whatever insights you gain are going to be paid for in heartbeats and flesh."

And he's a guy that was there. for further reading: http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/426/against_the_grain

Me, I have many happy and not so happy memories of my own 'explorations.' I paired it down to drinking and better than average weed for a long time (which I rather enjoyed).

As of December 10, 2010. I've adhered to my original teacher Master Sheng-Yen's take on the fifth precept, which is complete abstinance from all intoxicants. My meditation practice has improved, my life has improved, my relationships have improved. None of those inconvenient set-backs nor regrets of over-indulgence.

Master Sheng-Yen once said that someone who practices without taking the 5th precept is like someone who hangs out in fromt of the gate of The Way without stepping in. In my experience, he was very corect.

Soen-sa said, "Taking the medicine in order to understand is good. Taking the medicine because of the good feelings it gives you is not so good."

"Then it's possible to come to an understanding through special medicine?"

"It is possible. Many people are attached to name and form. They take this medicine and for five or ten hours it is the same as death. They have no hindrance from their body and their body's desires. It is like a dream. There is only the free action of their consciousness, the free play of the Karma I. So they understand that all life is empty. Life is death; death is life. They understand very clearly that fighting and differences among people are unnecessary, are just the result of wrong thinking. They no longer desire to be rich or successful. Rich or poor, success or failure--it is all the same. It comes to the same thing when you are dead."

The first student said, "You've just convinced me to take special medicine twice a day!"

Soen-sa said, "Taking it once or twice can be very helpful. But taking it more often is dangerous. It is very easy to become attached to special medicine. You are already a Zen student. So you already understand that life is empty; you understand what the true way is. When your body is sick, it is sometimes necessary to take a strong drug. But when you are healthy, you don't take drugs. So this special medicine cures some sickness, but it creates other sicknesses. After you take it, you have many attachments. You don't feel like working. You don't want money. You only want to relax or work in the garden or listen to music or enjoy art."

"Not make money? Heaven forbid!"

"This is an attachment to natural-style or hippie-style living. It is no good for a Zen"

I'm glad to find within Zen people with a differentiated view. Maybe Seung Sahn is the wrong authority for Brad Warner, but he talks about the potential of LSD to find insights that are valid for a Zen practice. And yes I've read he doesn't recommend it to take it more than once or twice. I have no objection to that. --René

Zen meditation is about non altered state: The TruthMinds as we experience them in meditation are filled with rocks called thoughts and these thoughts mess with with how we receive 'things as they are' or reality itselfEven the 'unaltered' state of mind has a way of 'altering' what comes into mind.Zen meditation allows mind to not just mind mindlessly but to let mind see itself in action and learn how to mind itselfSo in the regular practice of zen meditation, which allows for thoughts to arise and pass through consciousness unobstructed...there is an acquaintanceship which has the opportunity to develop: the self comes to know itself

I have a smattering of experience of various substances back in the day: the ingestion intent had been inquiry I don't know that I got any answers At the time i received some benefit: as awareness of the beauty of the world was restored to me. Did I 'need' drugs for this? Don't think so, I would not recommendIngestion of unknown unregulated substances from questionable sources to anyoneI was luckyI sit, the intent is to keep sitting alive in the world, not so much for me to arrive at a 'state' but so that sitting as something humans do continues to be something humans doRecently I had a powerful experience after a retreat (sesshin) I had been applying a method of meditation being instructed. I wasn't 'pushing' for any 'state' I was only remaining vigilant and dedicated to the method being instructed: silent illumination as described by zen master sheng yen (c'han buddhism)I am still digesting my experience but my preliminary take on it is that it is too 'strong'.I think it is better to meditate daily in the context of own's own life, one's own daily activities.Re-entry into my regular routine has felt 'spacy' for lack of a better termSimilar to fasting and needing to be careful in breaking the fast I think I needed to pay closer attention in how to resume my activities in my daily life after such a retreat.

Master sheng yen likens zen meditation to climbingA mountain: steep inclines, long stretches of relatively flat land; he also says it is like attempting to climb a steep glass mountain: an oil covered glass mountain...It is all about the climb and has nothing to do with anything else

Does the question of drug use as a spiritual tool even belong in zen? yes, some drugs are used in spiritual traditions and are even essential as in shamanic traditions, where the shaman receives information that's pertinent to the healing of the person seeking the shaman's help. but drug use is not an intrinsic part of zen practice.

As a ten year zen practitioner and having a teacher from the 60's that experimented heavily with drugs, i can say she has never used her drug experiences and insights a part of her teaching. as a matter of fact, she says once she sat on a cushion for the first time she left behind all heavy drug use (with the exception of marijuana, which she used for some time afterwards).

as a tradition focused in reality as it is (chop wood, carry water) and not relying on peak experiences, i don't know this is even an issue for the zen practitioner. maybe it's a topic specific forms of new age spirituality but imo, not in zen.

and i doubt shamans used hallucinogens specifically in the search of god, as they did not feel separate from god/spirit - god/spirit permeates all of natural life - but they used it specifically for healing ceremonies.

most 'mericans are too f-ed up for eastern religions, or ....psychedelics--due to sunday school indoctrination, calvin-mormon-zionism, etc. As this thread reveals (with Anny yokel yappin' away). Maybe some windowpane in a Hindu graveyard (even some in Ellay!) might do 'em some good--that or they go insane, and...mission accomplished

John, I agree that Mysti shouldn't have felt forced to take a three month hiatus, even though I asked him to (partly cuz I didnt think he would actually agree).

But to be fair, I don't think I bullied Mysterion into leaving. He made a claim that his spamming of the comments section was done to "protect" Brad by becoming a decoy for all the hate that otherwise would have gone Brad's way.

I told him that Brad didn't need him as a protector and it was a lame excuse. My problem with Mysterion was that he sometimes actually took over the comments section and made it virtually unreadable with long off-topic wiki-links and spam.

A few comments here and there--even if I find him to a pompous a-hole, is fine. I do find him to be a pompous a-hole. That's beside the point. He was spamming and ruining the blog in my opinion.

And on top of that he did this for probably three or four years before I even said a word about it.

I do think it would have been better if I'd asked Mysterion to try and make a reasonable number of comments (say less than ten) per post just to see how it would work out. Is that bullying? I think it;s simply asking him to respect that other people want to converse and read without filtering through his spam.

Fregas: are you not familiar with the concept of "Zen sickness", Zenbyo?

Consider the experiences of Ken Wilber, who has clearly been caught in a self-destructive relationship with meditation; or the story behind the song "Dear Prudence", which was about Prudence Farrow being unhealthily attached to meditation.

Not to say meditation is not more resistant to abuse than drugs. Zenbyo is the exception, not the rule. OTOH I just returned from the Starwood festival, which prompted Brad's original comment. (Nice to meet you there, Brad!) I'm far more accepting of the idea that entheogens/psychedelics can be used to positive ends than Brad is, but even in that environment -- far more aware and educated than, say, your local rave scene -- I'd be surprised if more than 1 in 20 of those using psychedelics there were doing so in a vaguely responsible manner.

I've used some of these substances a few times, and had a couple of valuable experiences. (I had something of a meditation practice in place beforehand, and did a lot of research first.) But they are not a substitute or a shortcut to meditation, not in the least, and I'll fully side with Brad in cutting down that idea. "Instant enlightenment in a pill/tab/mushroom!" -- no.

And when used as they usually are in our society, they have some real dangers. I got to deal with two E freak-outs last year, including one that had me holding a total stranger in a club parking lot as he had a seizure and pissed himself. No question that poor kid would have been better off going to a meditation class. (On the other hand, no question that that kid would have been better off if he could have gotten whatever chemical he was after legally from a regulated vendor and if his friends weren't scared to have the cops involved.)

If I were to offer an alternative to the "mountain" metaphor, I would suggest that psychedelics can, used properly, be the pebble that triggers an avalanche. For anything to happen, the rocks must already be in the right place. Or they are a power washer, versus the broom of meditation; if you try to power wash your kitchen floor rather than sweep it on a regular basis, you're going to make a mess. But the power washer still has its place, when used in the proper circumstances by a skilled operator.

I'd suggest that anyone interested in the question read Aldous Huxley's novel "Island", to get the insights of someone much smarter than me.

gniz, although I do not agree with your qualifications on how Mysterion -or anyone-might comment, I was not referring to You as the bully.

If you go back amongst the blogs and threads (I really don't recommend it to everyone, just sayin') you'll see that several anonymous-er (and at least one regular) commenters rallied around the idea and CONTINUE to pursue this line of thinking.

And that is what I disagree with over the particularities of Mysterion's example, the opinion that this is a place where others think they can determine whether or not you can express your opinion, on anything at all, as often as you feel like doing so.

As previously mentioned, Brad has often said that this is not a censored space -and I applaud him for it. Its his blog after all, so who are you or anyone else to say that Mysterion, or Everyone, is not welcome here?

I guess I half agree with your overall sentiment, but the half I don't agree with pertains to the fact that nobody censored Mysti.

People got effing sick of his antics and eventually it came to a head. In fact, I was always surprised with the snark and nastiness that could go on in this comments section, people mostly left Mysterion alone. For years. While he constantly shoved his wiki spam comments down everyone's throats.

Sure some seemed to genuinely enjoy his "work" and interact with him. But over time it seemed to get under folks' nerves. I tried for YEARS, literally, to just ignore him.

But when the comments turned to shite recently it seemed to me that his spam had really encouraged people to give up trying to even hold a conversation anymore.

So I expressed my opinion on it. I said that I felt his contributions were detrimental to the blog because they were so tedious and constant that it made it difficult to read here. That's how I felt about it.

Others expressed similar opinions.

Because Brad doesn't censor or in any way mess with the comments section here, this was allowed as well. I suppose it was a kind of self policing. Mysti easily could have stuck around but he chose to prove a point of some sort by leaving.

I truly didn't think he would leave but I personally have enjoyed the comments more without his spam. It was spam, imo. That was always my issue with his comments.

gniz,So, come on. You're trying to say that whoever happens to annoy us must eventually be banished?

Just skip their comments. I'm sure many see my proud member and do so. Its not hard (oh, that was Baaaaad!!). Because it is, sorta.

There are LOTSA them, you know.

Mysterion is a "clever-trousers" and often went off topic, but can you blame him? Look at this blog's topic. Its been done twice now (and Brad is guilty of milking the same cow twice or thrice when it was dry coming on).

I dunno. His contributions, and yours, any anybody's, were alright with me, I learn from all of it.

We will agree to disagree on this--but I personally felt that Mysterion's Wiki-laden comments, sometimes dozens of them under one blog post...went beyond mere annoyance. They became spam due to their length, off-topic nature, and the shear number of them.

Doesn't mean he had to leave. I asked him to chill out and he took me up on it, but NOBODY forced him to go.

I reckon old Mysti drove away many more blog readers in his time, so maybe it's a karma thang...

Bah. mysterion is a hog for attention. He is never more happy than when he has people reading his twaddle. And that would be fine on his own blog, but not when he hi-jacks someone else's to do it. No one reads or comments on his blog ever. You don't comment there John. If you're such a fan throw the guy a bone once in a while. If you did maybe he wouldn't feel the need to endlessly spam Brad's blog with his idiotic fantasies. And these anonymous alter-egos that defend and respect him and know his blogging habits and report back to us that he NEVER posts anonymously ever. Please..

Reality sorts these things out in the end. Very regrettable that most of us humans like to learn everything the hard way. I did. If you can get slightly less selfish, more content, deal with fear and the little everyday things better by doing psychedelics, cool. Just consider that you might be the exception rather than the rule. I was going to be an exception. Life proved otherwise.

Like it or not, they [the helicopter tourists] have the same gorgeous view up there as you have. Unfortunately, our brain is agnostic how it got into the neuronal state of Satori. Does that make meditation useless? No, that's a misrepresentation. If you climbed up the mountain, you have something the helicopter tourists don't have.

The same gorgeous view = a neuronal state of Satori?

These are straw things here, nuanced or not.

Some of my own, perhaps:

When you take LSD you are screwing with your subjectivity, you are confusing its relation to the world, and damaging the finely tuned apparatus that is an inextricable aspect of the whole.

For someone who might be serious about embarking on a healthy, long-term 'spiritual progress', even the positive benefits and 'insights' will only prove to be more insidious barriers.

'Neuronal states' are just another dream within an dream, and with regards to LSD, yet another justification for thrill seekers and overripe idealists to drill holes in their own heads.

With all drugs, there is something one is leaning on, some way in which we're not ready to stand on our own two feet. I think the very intention to take drugs just binds us a little more to our crutches or stabilisers - even after having putting the pills themselves behind us.

I think a lot of us are ridden with a nostalgia for our own 'insights' on drugs as well as other things, which baulks at the stance Brad is taking and the challenge his style of expressing it throws down.

I think there's a lot of sense in much of what you say about drug use. But...

"I think a lot of us are ridden with a nostalgia for our own 'insights' on drugs as well as other things, which baulks at the stance Brad is taking and the challenge his style of expressing it throws down."

It's certainly true - in a sense - that I'm ridden with nostalgia for the insights, primarily the musical insights, that I regularly enjoyed during my young pot-smoking days. They were not only very enjoyable and rewarding insights (might experiences be a better word?) but they also informed and helped form my musical understanding in useful ways. Those experiences/insights are an integral part of an aesthetic that has enabled me to play better; to better understand and make the music I want to make – without the need to be stoned. Pot was part of my education.

I still enjoy and value the particular state of heightened/altered awareness that pot-smoking induces in me - on the very rare occasions that I’ve done it recently (I gave up smoking dope for about 30 years). I think of it as a treat – not to be abused, for, like many pleasurable things, it can be harmful.

But I believe that's only part of the reason I baulk at Brad's stance and style. To the extent that I baulk, I do so because the “Zen/Buddhism is not about achieving heightened states of awareness/Satori is bunk/Kensho is bullshit” message is lost amidst the personally judgemental and dismissive “People who drugs are dumb ass losers” message and the “Drugs are stupid. Just say no” message. It’s a confused mish-mash of a message, parts of which are mere sloganising. And so I baulk.

"the bourgeois stoners of HZ don't care for mysti since he's not like..a bourgeois stoner, usually."

No, he's like something else.. He's like a delusional blowhard with no practical judgment.. His opinions are often bigoted. He constantly overestates his abilities and talent. And lately, he has proven to be exceptionally dishonest.

Another thing wrong with the helicopter/mountain metaphor is that the point of zazen is not to get to the top of the mountain. The point of taking drugs may be to "get high" but the point of zazen is not to "get enlightened." So even before making such a comparison, the metaphor is totally wrong-headed to begin with.

Acid dissolved the "veil of familiarity" in a big hurry, in that way, the experience revealed the "Gateless Gate," and in 1964 that was almost necessary. Yes, there was Alan Watts and a few others, but the monolith of Western "literallism" was truly all pervasive and suffocating. Hard to imagine now, really. However, after a few trips Richard Alpert's comment "once you get the message, hang up the phone," made perfect sense. One now knew where the "doors of perception" were. One also percieved on acid that the central dynamic in nature was rhythm, the endless dance of energy between opposite poles. Balance was everything. That ruled out taking a trip every day. It suggested the necessity of a practice. And making a choice. And (ohmygod!) dicipline. Would the same be true today? I doubt it. Set and setting are vastly different. And, now we have voices like Mr. Warner's, who; despite what one may feel about his take on psychedelics, is a very effective "teacher."

Getting back on topic here myself, I'm not sure that drugs, psychedelic or otherwise, have much in common with meditation other than that they occur within the human experience.

The human experience makes everything have something in common, if you look closely enough. But my drug experiences from my high school/early college days (which were limited by my fearful nature) don't have much to offer my meditation practice.

Do they show a curiousness about the human condition? Absolutely. I think that I definitely took them to experiment with my reality. But I dont find my meditation bends and twists reality in the way that drugs have done...at least, not very often.

I don't wholesale condemn the use of drugs as a spiritual path, even if I have a hard time believing it from my own experience. A very close friend of mine has discovered Ayahuasca in the last couple of years. He now appears to have taken on this "medicine" as his spiritual practice, and he engages in the ritual taking of it as a means to understand his inner world.

Now the things he experiences (seeing spirits and so forth) is not something that jibes with my experience of meditation. Perhaps he HAS opened a door to perception. Perhaps these spirits really do exist.

My thought is that, given how confused most of us are now, while appearing in bodily incarnations, why would we assume that any of us get smarter when we're dead and floating around as spirits? Even if spirits do in fact exist (something I'm not at all taking as fact), why would I assume they have insight that is superior to my own?

So I come back to what is my path. My path is not drugs or medicine or whatever you want to call it. Although I struggle to see how this path of Ayahuasca helps my friend, I try to suspend my disbelief and listen to him and accept that right now this works for him.

I don't agree with Brad's hard line stance even if that is how I feel for myself. I think we need to be careful of wholesale judging others' experiences because we can NEVER truly understand another person's experience. Now, if someone appears to be harming or taking advantage of another using spirituality as a mask, that is one thing. But people using drugs are not doing damage to others, mostly they may be harming themselves.

This is their right. I think we need to err on the side of caution when making large scale condemnations of someone else's personal beliefs or preferences when it comes to spiritual practice.

So far as meditation goes, I totally see Brad's point. Also, it has always seemed to me that a great deal of Buddhist practice involves developing skepticism toward peak experiences-- not that they are bad but rather that equanimity in the face of all experience, intense or mundane, is the ultimate goal.

But let's take the case of somebody who likes to smoke some pot every now and again. On rare occasions this person also likes to take some mushrooms. He is not addicted. His intake is moderate and most of all he has no illusions that drug use will make him enlightened or any such thing at all. His only reason is that he likes to get high occasionally.

So is this guy a loser or a poser? If so, why? (btw this is purely hypothetical)

"Suppose, monks, there is a man journeying on a road and he sees a vast expanse of water of which this shore is perilous and fearful, while the other shore is safe and free from danger. But there is no boat for crossing nor is there a bridge for going over from this side to the other. So the man thinks: 'This is a vast expanse of water; and this shore is perilous and fearful, but the other shore is safe and free from danger. There is, however, no boat here for crossing, nor a bridge for going over from this side to the other. Suppose I gather reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and bind them into a raft.' Now that man collects reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and binds them into a raft. Carried by that raft, laboring with hands and feet, he safely crosses over to the other shore. Having crossed and arrived at the other shore, he thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not lift this raft on my head or put it on my shoulders, and go where I like?'

"What do you think about it, O monks? Will this man by acting thus, do what should be done with a raft?" — "No, Lord" — "How then, monks, would he be doing what ought to be done with a raft? Here, monks, having got across and arrived at the other shore, the man thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, and laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not pull it up now to the dry land or let it float in the water, and then go as I please?' By acting thus, monks, would that man do what should be done with a raft.

"In the same way, monks, have I shown to you the Teaching's similitude to a raft: as having the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of being clung to.

Buddha used the metaphor of crossing a river with a raft to reach the other shore, I used the metaphor of a mountain and a helicopter.

Climbing a mountain, crossing a river - the difference for our purpose is negligible. It's just a metaphor.

Build your zazen raft if you feel inclined to, embark to the journey and get to the other shore. You will meet people there who got there in different ways. But it won't matter anymore. Awakening doesn't care how you got there.

Hey all, it seems this handle is up for grabs for a bit so I'll take it on! Feel free to direct your statements and observations here and I'll answer using this persona. Consider me a 'walk in'.

Gniz, what exactly does this 'agree to disagree' device mean to you? I see you pull it out now and then and it strikes me as a 'dodge and parry' move. I mean, when you write 'we' it appears that you mean 'I' but can't quite type that pronoun for some reason. Just stirring it up a little ;)

The recreational drug user stereotype which Brad likes to put up in order to throw shit at has nothing to do with the entheogen using psychonauts who have been, and continue to, carry on the traditions of the shaman.

Eventually Brad will get bored of banging this particular drum, as his constant need for peak experiences (in his case being an internet attention whore) will lead him to find another bogey-man. Maybe he will go back and flog he gempo dead horse?

There must be something about his particular lineage as Jundo is exhibiting much the same predilections for sensationalist whore mongering over on zfi :)

One can assume that their understanding of, and willingness to discuss, zen buddhism is so limited that they have to sit and fling shit like apes in a cage.

(contd) And Buddha never said only his raft works. And as far as I know he didn't try to police others who used another raft or told them silly things like their raft can never get to the same shore, or hid in obscurantism by telling "this raft is not about getting anywhere, nor is it about awakening" etc.

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness."

See http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/When_the_Saints_Go_Marching_Marching_In.pdf___________________________________

~ I couldn't help but want to get in there a little as I had the opportunity to take 15 Retreats with Ven. Master Sheng-Yen between 1991 and 2004. I also had the opportunity to take interview on some of those retreats with the above article's composer, Stuart Lachs, who I respect very much.

Was Ven. Master Sheng-Yen somewhat narcissistic in his ambitions to propegate the Dharma and his organization??? Yes, he probably was. And I'm glad he was, else he likely wouldn't have come to America, and I wouldn't have had the opportunity to attend his retreats.

I kind of knew he was a human being going in. The human-ness of zen (with all of its imperfections and contradictions) is for me one of its most atractive attributes.

While human, and flawed, Ven. Master Sheng Yen was also a caring teacher, a very funny and smart individual; and had a talent for bringing the teachings to life. And hey! No sex scandals :)

Thank you for bringing Stuart Lachs back into focus for me. That guy is great, and through your input here I've been able to learn a lot more about him.

and for a little more narcissism enjoy: www.reverbnation.com/robjonesnow

Apperently, I sound really good when you're all highed up....or not :)

Take some substance and have an experience of oneness? Or sit and do nothing on a daily basis for the rest of your life? The choice is obvious right? Once when I was on the mushrooms I was hanging my clothes in the closet and I was so careful and thought to me self, "wow everything is precious and I need to take care of everything cuz it's all alive" Then I went to taco bell.

Bad experiment. Who called this place Pretyaville? Dang you killed it for me. Been coming here since 2006. Regular stop on my websurf. Rarely read Brad's posts. Never read his books. I really should just kiss off. Death of a lurking troll. This place brings out the worst in me. I should just go back to therapy. I haven't learned much here but I have gotten some good laughs :)

Everyone who reads this: you're great. If you're into meditation may it deepen for you.

The guy who rode the helicopter has seen the top, but he doesn't know a damned thing about the mountain. And the guy climbing up a step at a time? He never has to worry about running out of fuel and crashing. THERE IS NO SHORTCUT.

"Rhesus monkeys, like other higher primates, are intensely affected by their social environments. An isolated monkey will repeatedly pull a lever with no reward other than the sight of another monkey."Edward Wilson, Sociobiology

Drugs are like a first lust - misconstrued as love (Oh baby, I can't live without you!). Meditation is like love, sometimes exciting, sometimes boring, but hopefully consistent and contributing to growth.

"Most of the domesticated primates of Terra did not know they were primates. They thought they were something apart from and "superior" to the rest of the planet...Since a great deal of primate behavior was considered just awful, most of the domesticated primates spent most of their time trying to conceal what they were doing.Some of the primates got caught by other primates. All of the primates lived in dread of getting caught.Those who got caught were called no-good shits."

"The term no-good shit was a deep expression of primate psychology. For instance, one wild primate (a chimpanzee) taught sign language by two domesticated primates (scientists) spontaneously put together the signs for "shit" and "scientist" to describe a scientist she didn't like. She was calling him shit-scientist. She also put together the signs for "shit" and "chimpanzee" for another chimpanzee she didn't like. She was calling him shit-chimpanzee.

"You no-good shit," domesticated primates often said to each other.This metaphor was deep in primate psychology because primates mark their territories with excretions, and sometimes they threw excretions at each other when disputing over territories."Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy, RAW

It makes them crazy when someone with meditation experience disagrees. It's like when you bother a fire ant mound.

You mean like it makes you crazy when someone with meditation experience disagrees with your views? Psy drugs indeed offer glimpses of what can be better grasped via zazen. But they do offer real glimpses, however partial. They can be useful if they show someone what is 'there' and this inspires them to begin real meditation. Acid and other psy drugs do not rot your brain or induce psychosis in otherwise healthy people. Your views are too dogmatic and one-size-fits all. You've done acid, what? five times? Sat zen for 25 + years? I've tripped over 200 times and sat zen for 35+ years.

"All one has to do then, after ridding oneself of the false notion of a substantial reality, is simply renounce desire itself and adopt an attitude of inner peace and distance. No wonder Buddhism can function as the perfect ideological supplement to virtual capitalism: It allows us to participate in it with an inner distance, keeping our fingers crossed, and our hands clean, as it were.""

The politics of it still gets me worried. Not because I'm concerned whether dumb 20-year-olds are sitting in zazen or taking acid. Actually, clearly the experience is not just the peak experience, or the composition of the several moments leading up to and from the peak experience. In other words, enlightenment is not when you go there, it's there comes here. Still, meditation and drugs aren't necessarily better than each other. Too weird.

Uh oh Byro Dumbass wit his YT hippie schtick.keep in mind, grasshoppahs, this dumbass with a two dozen names is about 270, 6-3, pure whitey shit, a sunday schooler--, 'roids, and meth tweekin. Maybe we link to some of his like Donny Osmond dumbass musick, with his dumbass buddies, who never quite made it to garage band 101 (dude, like what's an arpeggio)

Uh oh, big Bubba doin some mormon-like compensatin'. Queer stuff! Queeer, you mean like your gay s**, W**l, who you r**ed at what 7-8--(or maybe some of the people you fed roofies) -he'll be testifyin on you soon as well. Yo D***s.....

without reading everyone else's comments here, in which the same thing is probably already said...I didn't take psychedelics until I already had some years of meditation experience. I learned some profound things in my dozen or so psychedelic experiences (including LSD, mushrooms, peyote, and MDMA - all of which were RADICALLY different experiences in themselves) and I say unequivocally that zazen "experiences" and drug experiences are categorically different. It is NOT the same mountain, at all. Nor are all drugs visiting the same mountain. They are different mountains on the same planet maybe. But zazen is a whole other beast. It is beyond even climbing anything. It is staying home and making tea, happy that mountains are just mountains, off mountaining somewhere.Even talking about these things we are already past the boundaries of where language can go - but I am convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that the real encounter with Buddhadharma in zazen utterly trumps any 'high' or psychological breathrough I may have experienced taking psychedelics. Utterly transcends them. Completely. Totally. Maybe even gave them the only sense they have. My advice to the psychedelically obsessed? Look more carefully at the one who wants the trip. Why? Who wants to keep going there, and why? I think there is a well of sadness and disappointment there, and it's better to sit in it, and bloom. Lotuses don't grow on Everest.