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Altmer or Dunmer. Which culture is more "advanced"?

Now before Summerset came out I would've easily given it to the Altmer, but now that we've seen their homeland they seem a lot less advanced than many assumed. The developers have confirmed as much, claiming that the Altmer are a lot m ore grounded and realistic than previous "exaggerated" accounts would have you believe.

With this in mind, I'm wondering which society is more advanced: the allegedly most intelligent and magical race in Tamriel? Or the Dunmer?

So what do we mean by "advanced"?

Well I primarily mean magical and "scientific" advancement. What are they capable of creating? How much are these creations integrated into their daily lives? How are they used to improve their society? What's the "limit" on what they can accomplish through magic and / or engineering?

I haven't played much of Summerset since I found the environment to be incredibly boring, but I know a lot about the Dunmer and what they can do. If anyone is interested in this discussion, list some of the accomplishments of the Altmer and I'll add it to this post.

The Altmer

The Altmer are some of the best smiths in Tamriel. Glass armor is widely regarded as the best light armor available, on par with daedric in terms of quality. Even the glass armor in Morrowind is described as being made by Altmer smiths. Obviously, the aesthetics and lore of the Altmer have changed a lot since then, but to my knowledge this hasn't been retconned.

But here's the most important bit: while daedric armor is made of the blood of a dead god and infused with the soul of an extradimensional being, glass is made entirely by mortal hands. What does that say about the Altmer and what they're capable of?

Of course, we have to wonder at the apparent inconsistency here: if Altmer are capable of creating something that rivals the divine, then how can they be so limited in other areas?

The Dunmer

So first off, let's start with a big one: We know the dunmer are capable of cloning. At first glance this ability may seem limited to Divayth Fyr, but Dram (a bad guy from Redguard) was described as being "thrice-born", "materializing" instead of being birthed, and has had multiple "incarnations". The game doesn't treat this as anything particularly out of the ordinary, and it's described in a very pedestrian way. He was also based on Boba Fett, so...I mean come on.

The Telvanni are also capable of creating cities out of mushrooms. As far as I can tell, the Altmer are limited to building out of stone. Think about the sheer utility of such a feat. Of course, creating a magical mushroom colony must be resource-intensive, but being able to create infrastructure without the need for mining and transporting heavy materials is something we can't gloss over.

But not all of this is restricted to the Telvanni. Dunmer architecture would require an extremely advanced understanding of engineering, and would either require advanced machinery, magic, or both in order to create. The cantons used by the temple seem to be made of some sort of concrete, or other sturdy, "moldable" material. Note the smooth, organic shapes and the complete lack of angles. These aren't stone bricks stacked on top of each other like the Altmer use.

Also, we can't discount the sheer size of a single canton. In Morrowind, each is described as though it were an entire neighborhood, a town in and of itself. Imagine how complex the ventilation systems would have to be in order to acomodate for so many people living within a single building.

We don't have to imagine just how advanced their plumbing and irrigation system would have to be, because we can see it for ourselves. Boot up Morrowind, take a walk through Vivec and you'll see the canals, the fountains, the water that is somehow transported up to the top of each canton and pours back down. The water is being circulated, purified in the sewers, and released for public consumption. If the water wasn't clean, holy *** would we smell it in those cantons.

The Dunmer also have a highly advanced understanding of biology, or at least entomology. They ride silt striders by directly manipulating their organs and tissues with needles. This means they need to at least understand the basics of neurology and how to stimulate different parts of the nervous system in order to achieve locomotion. If we assume a silt strider can be maneuvered as precisely as a horse, this would require an insane amount of precision and expertise.

I usually hate comparing The Elder Scrolls to real world history, but this is just for fun: in real life, we didn't start successfully manipulating and stimulating parts of the nervous system until the 1820s. Even then, it was mostly just us lesioning animal brains to see what would happen.

Obviously you can throw a wrench into any of this by saying "it's a fantasy world", but our goal is to compare what the Dunmer can do to what the Altmer can do. Silt strider operation is described in vaguely scientific terms. I think it's safe to assume that, at the very least, the way a silt strider is controlled is based in some sort of advanced science, fantasy or otherwise. If the nervous system doesn't work exactly the same in the Elder Scrolls as it does in real life, I think we can still assume it's a complex process.

From what I've seen, I feel like the Altmer are much more grounded in medieval pseudo-realism than the Dunmer, who seem to be capable of far more.

Obviously the Psijiics may be an exception, but how much should we count them? They seem to live separately from the way rest of Altmer society, are not an exclusively Altmer group, and have fewer numbers than the Telvanni who, while a relatively small group, still represents a large facet of dunmer society.

So what do you guys think? Who runs a more advanced society? The Altmer, or the Dunmer?

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.

You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.

The Altmer had slaves until the second era I believe, and use goblins as slave labor as well (though it think this was retconned?)

And slave labor =/= magical advancement, complex engineering, or a nuanced understanding of neurology, so I don't know what you're getting at here. All you've proven is that the dunmer have a work force to execute their ideas. Having slaves doesn't make you better at magic or science.

Edited by psychotrip on August 11, 2018 3:27PM

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.

The Altmer had slaves until the second era I believe, and use goblins as slave labor as well (though it think this was retconned?)

And slave labor =/= magical advancement, complex engineering, or a nuanced understanding of neurology, so I don't know what you're getting at here. All you've proven is that the dunmer have a work force to execute their ideas. Having slaves doesn't make you better at magic or science.

No but slavery does give them more time to focus on such things as they had more time on their hands not doing menial tasks.

You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.

The Altmer had slaves until the second era I believe, and use goblins as slave labor as well (though it think this was retconned?)

And slave labor =/= magical advancement, complex engineering, or a nuanced understanding of neurology, so I don't know what you're getting at here. All you've proven is that the dunmer have a work force to execute their ideas. Having slaves doesn't make you better at magic or science.

No but slavery does give them more time to focus on such things as they had more time on their hands not doing menial tasks.

The Altmer still had slaves until relatively recently by the time of ESO. It was a dunmer slave who revealed how the altmer made moonstone armor in the second era. Again, they also had goblin slaves.

Edited by psychotrip on August 11, 2018 3:31PM

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.

The Altmer had slaves until the second era I believe, and use goblins as slave labor as well (though it think this was retconned?)

And slave labor =/= magical advancement, complex engineering, or a nuanced understanding of neurology, so I don't know what you're getting at here. All you've proven is that the dunmer have a work force to execute their ideas. Having slaves doesn't make you better at magic or science.

No but slavery does give them more time to focus on such things as they had more time on their hands not doing menial tasks.

The Altmer still had slaves until relatively recently by the time of ESO. It was a dunmer slave who revealed how the altmer made moonstone armor in the second era. Again, they also had goblin slaves.

But not to the extent that the dumner had. The dumner practically enslaved everyone but themselves... kinda goes with their theme of thinking they are better than everyone. The altmer had slaves but that evolved towards genocide.

You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.

The Altmer had slaves until the second era I believe, and use goblins as slave labor as well (though it think this was retconned?)

And slave labor =/= magical advancement, complex engineering, or a nuanced understanding of neurology, so I don't know what you're getting at here. All you've proven is that the dunmer have a work force to execute their ideas. Having slaves doesn't make you better at magic or science.

No but slavery does give them more time to focus on such things as they had more time on their hands not doing menial tasks.

The Altmer still had slaves until relatively recently by the time of ESO. It was a dunmer slave who revealed how the altmer made moonstone armor in the second era. Again, they also had goblin slaves.

But not to the extent that the dumner had. The dumner practically enslaved everyone but themselves... kinda goes with their theme of thinking they are better than everyone. The altmer had slaves but that evolved towards genocide.

The Altmer also have the advantage of the longest running civilization in Tamrielic history. You'd think that would count for something.

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.

The Altmer had slaves until the second era I believe, and use goblins as slave labor as well (though it think this was retconned?)

And slave labor =/= magical advancement, complex engineering, or a nuanced understanding of neurology, so I don't know what you're getting at here. All you've proven is that the dunmer have a work force to execute their ideas. Having slaves doesn't make you better at magic or science.

No but slavery does give them more time to focus on such things as they had more time on their hands not doing menial tasks.

The Altmer still had slaves until relatively recently by the time of ESO. It was a dunmer slave who revealed how the altmer made moonstone armor in the second era. Again, they also had goblin slaves.

But not to the extent that the dumner had. The dumner practically enslaved everyone but themselves... kinda goes with their theme of thinking they are better than everyone. The altmer had slaves but that evolved towards genocide.

The Altmer also have the advantage of the longest running civilization in Tamrielic history. You'd think that would count for something.

Right you had the altmer that practiced isolationism and the dumner who gobbled up everything from multiple civilizations... It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to see why the dumner may have been more advanced... however that was more of a consequence of their nature.

You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.

The Altmer had slaves until the second era I believe, and use goblins as slave labor as well (though it think this was retconned?)

And slave labor =/= magical advancement, complex engineering, or a nuanced understanding of neurology, so I don't know what you're getting at here. All you've proven is that the dunmer have a work force to execute their ideas. Having slaves doesn't make you better at magic or science.

No but slavery does give them more time to focus on such things as they had more time on their hands not doing menial tasks.

The Altmer still had slaves until relatively recently by the time of ESO. It was a dunmer slave who revealed how the altmer made moonstone armor in the second era. Again, they also had goblin slaves.

But not to the extent that the dumner had. The dumner practically enslaved everyone but themselves... kinda goes with their theme of thinking they are better than everyone. The altmer had slaves but that evolved towards genocide.

The Altmer also have the advantage of the longest running civilization in Tamrielic history. You'd think that would count for something.

Right you had the altmer that practiced isolationism and the dumner who gobbled up everything from multiple civilizations... It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to see why the dumner may have been more advanced... however that was more of a consequence of their nature.

So at the end of the day you're saying Dunmer are more advanced? Is there anything the Altmer can do that can compete?

It just feels so disappointing to me as a former Altmer fanatic. Turns out it was all bluster and arrogance with nothing to back it up. I always assumed they were the most magically advanced culture in Tamriel.

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.

I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.

I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.

And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.

But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.

Edited by psychotrip on August 11, 2018 3:56PM

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.

I understand, I just don't think you can separate them completely if you want to talk about the society as a whole.

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.

I understand, I just don't think you can separate them completely if you want to talk about the society as a whole.

Very true, and I'd be more than willing to discuss their societies as a whole. But the point of this thread was to pinpoint a specific aspect of their societies, not their societies as a whole.

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.

I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.

And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.

But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.

Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.

I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.

And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.

But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.

Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.

Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

Keep in mind that we see very little of the Altmer society and the College of Sapiarchs in ESO, while we see Dunmer society in great detail in TES 3.

So the game expansion that focuses on the Altmer shows us little about the Altmer? Again I've barely played Summerset so this may be a weird question: what exactly do we learn about the Altmer in this expansion?

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

I think those 2 races are but a shadow of their common ancestor, the Aldmer.
And I also think that their culture, knowledge and power is retrogading.
All their ancient architecture, magicka prowess and connection with Aetherius and the divines, forgotten.
The Psijic Order of Arteum and the Apostles of the Clockwork City are the only 2 groups (at least founded by each race) that keep up with the knowledge of their ancient times and the dwemer.
The rest of their culture is based on fanatic religion, knowledge that eventually will be forgotten because of their selfisness, isolationism, racism and morally wrong applications.

TL;DR: It's their own culture that halts their advancement. The only good thing that came from these races of mer are the foundation of Clockwork City and the Psijic Order

I think those 2 races are but a shadow of their common ancestor, the Aldmer.
And I also think that their culture, knowledge and power is retrogading.
All their ancient architecture, magicka prowess and connection with Aetherius and the divines, forgotten.
The Psijic Order of Arteum and the Apostles of the Clockwork City are the only 2 groups (at least founded by each race) that keep up with the knowledge of their ancient times and the dwemer.
The rest of their culture is based on fanatic religion, knowledge that eventually will be forgotten because of their selfisness, isolationism, racism and morally wrong applications.

TL;DR: It's their own culture that halts their advancement. The only good thing that came from these races of mer are the foundation of Clockwork City and the Psijic Order

It's really sad that this is the direction Zenimax chose to go. Everything offscreen has to be fantastical and mystical, but most of what we actually see is mundane and generic. I really thought they were going in a better direction with Clockwork City, but now we're just back the same generic fantasy garbage we've seen a million times over.

That aside though, I still feel as though the Dunmer are portrayed as more advanced than the Altmer, which is a bit weird to me. The Altmer just seem so normal and grounded. A far cry from what I was expecting. Then again, I still haven't seen all of Summerset, so if anyone disagrees please feel free to chime in.

Edited by psychotrip on August 11, 2018 5:45PM

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

Keep in mind that we see very little of the Altmer society and the College of Sapiarchs in ESO, while we see Dunmer society in great detail in TES 3.

So the game expansion that focuses on the Altmer shows us little about the Altmer? Again I've barely played Summerset so this may be a weird question: what exactly do we learn about the Altmer in this expansion?

My point is more that, compared to the vast and intricate detail with which the Dunmer were depicted in TES 3 Morrowind where we find out tons of lore about every bit of their society, culture, and accomplishments, ESO's Summerset is like the theme park version of Altmer culture. ESO's Summerset glosses over a lot of the specifics in favor of broadly introducing us to the basics of how Summerset's culture works. We know far more about various Telvanni magelords than we do about the Altmer College of the Sapiarchs, thanks largely to TES 3.

I mean, we learn a lot more about the Altmer than we knew before (especially since ESO's devs chose to retcon a fair amount of the lore), but frankly, its not on the same level as what we learned about the Dunmer in TES 3. So I think any argument comparing the two of them has to take into account that the Dunmer have gotten one full single-player game and the tribunal DLC in Morrowind, Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC, 2 base game zones, 1 Chapter, and 1 DLC to flesh them out, where as the Altmer have gotten one base game zone and a single chapter. We know a little about the Altmer, thanks to Auridon and Summerset. We know a TON about the Dunmer, largely thanks to TES 3.

Well, if you go by the idea that the victors write the history, Alessia and St. Pelinal would probably agree. And in 300 or so years iirc, Tiber Septim is about to make that point with the help of the Numidium.

Human cultures in Tamriel don't seem to be the most magically advanced, but they do seem to be the more militarily dominant cultures. (The 4th Era Thalmor are trying to contest that with the Imperials, and got their butts handed to them by the Redguards.)

Well, if you go by the idea that the victors write the history, Alessia and St. Pelinal would probably agree. And in 300 or so years iirc, Tiber Septim is about to make that point with the help of the Numidium.

Human cultures in Tamriel don't seem to be the most magically advanced, but they do seem to be the more militarily dominant cultures. (The 4th Era Thalmor are trying to contest that with the Imperials, and got their butts handed to them by the Redguards.)

Right. I wasn't exactly asking what people in-universe think about whose more advanced, or who had the best military. I wanted to know what you guys thought specifically.

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.

I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.

And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.

But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.

Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.

Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.

“The Altmer are proud, conceited, and decadent. Their clothes, manners, arts, and crafts are highly refined, but they are godless and spiritually empty. They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose.”
- Nobles of Morrowind

Even the dumner hint around that the altmer are superior in refinements and sorcery. The dumner even look at them as godless because of this reason. The altmer are more advanced and the dumner more barbaric.

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.

I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.

And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.

But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.

Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.

Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.

“The Altmer are proud, conceited, and decadent. Their clothes, manners, arts, and crafts are highly refined, but they are godless and spiritually empty. They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose.”
- Nobles of Morrowind

Even the dumner hint around that the altmer are superior in refinements and sorcery. The dumner even look at them as godless because of this reason. The altmer are more advanced and the dumner more barbaric.

Yeah but can you list any examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced? Anything that wasn't later proven to be an "exaggeration"? Those same npcs also described Cyrodiil as a jungle. Most of the Morrowind-era lore has been retconned.

Edited by psychotrip on August 11, 2018 7:03PM

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.

If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?

I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.

I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.

And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.

But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.

Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.

Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.

“The Altmer are proud, conceited, and decadent. Their clothes, manners, arts, and crafts are highly refined, but they are godless and spiritually empty. They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose.”
- Nobles of Morrowind

Even the dumner hint around that the altmer are superior in refinements and sorcery. The dumner even look at them as godless because of this reason. The altmer are more advanced and the dumner more barbaric.

Yeah but can you list any examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced? Anything that wasn't later proven to be an "exaggeration"? Those same npcs also described Cyrodiil as a jungle. Most of the Morrowind-era lore has been retconned.

It's part of the lore and so you have to take it as such.... you can't throw it out because it doesn't fit your native or so as you've told me.