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A chain lock does not work on a door that opens outward into the hallway. The chain would either not function or could easily be unlocked by reaching in and slowly closing the door until the chain can be moved. Or just ripping the door open enough to tear the chain support off the doorframe.

Not necessarily. Chain locks typically have a horizontal slot. If a chain lock is on the left-hand side of a door, then the chain is inserted or removed on the right-hand side of the lock. When the door is at all opened, the chain is pulled towards the left-hand side of the slot. The chain is too short to put on or remove while the door is open.

And while it's possible to force the chain off the doorframe by pulling the door hard enough, it's also possible by pushing the door hard enough. It's easier to force off a chain that opens inwards because each object will be pulled in one direction, and you can get a short running start before hitting the door.

And Natsuhi's door isn't mentioned as having a chain.

Looking through the original VN: Do any of these mention "pulling / pushing a door open / shut" in the original Japanese?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Episode 1

; 扉を開くと、源次は最敬礼して再び朝の挨拶を口にした。@
; 一応、夏妃もそれに応える。\
`When she opened the door, Genji once again said a morning greeting to her while bowing deeply.`@
`Natsuhi tentatively responded.`\

Quote:

Originally Posted by Episode 1

; 夏妃は廊下に出て、自分の部屋の扉を閉めようと一度振り返った。@
; そこで目にした気持ちの悪い“それ”に絶句したのだ。\
`Natsuhi exited into the hall and turned around for a second to close the door to her room.`@
`The unpleasant "thing" that she saw there silenced her completely.`\

Quote:

Originally Posted by Episode 2

; 鍵を開け、部屋に飛び込む。\
`They unlocked the door, and flew into the room.`\

Quote:

Originally Posted by Episode 2

; 郷田はそれに使える道具がないかと室内をぐるりと見渡す。@
; そして、入ってきた時、開け放ったままにしていた扉に気付いた。\
`Gohda looked all over the room, trying to see if there was some tool that they could use.`@
`And he noticed the door, which had been left open ever since they had entered.`\

; 閉めようと扉に近付き、……廊下の向こうの暗闇からやってくる、忌まわしき人影たちに気付い た…。\
`He approached the door to close it, ......and noticed the abominable shadows of people approaching from beyond the darkness in the hall...`\

; そして、足音だけでなく、息吹までも耳にした時、@郷田は施錠を諦め、肩からどっかりと扉にぶつかり、 その巨体で自らを施錠とした。/
`And when not just footsteps, but their breath too could be heard, `@`Gohda gave up on the lock and slammed into the door, locking it himself with his large body.`/

implies door opens into room - is that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Episode 2

; すると扉は、誰が押しているわけでもないのに、すぅっと開き、/
;!d800……この部屋の新しき主たちを迎え入れた。@
`As it did, the door opened softly, even though no one was pushing it, `/
!d800`......and the new master of this room was welcomed in.`@
br
; まるで扉自身がそれを認めたかのように見えた。\
`It looked almost as though the door itself had accepted her.`\

implies door opens into room

Quote:

Originally Posted by Episode 2

; 楼座叔母さんが、用心してねというのを聞きながら、俺は特に何の用心もなく扉を開く。\
`While listening to Rosa oba-san as she told me to take care, I opened the door without taking any particular care.`\

Quote:

Originally Posted by Episode 2

; 楼座叔母さんは３人の検死が終わると、この部屋を再び封印すると宣言し、@一方的に俺たちを追い出し、 俺に預けたマスターキーを奪い返して、再び施錠した。@
`After Rosa oba-san finished investigating their deaths, she proclaimed that she would seal this room again,`@` chased the rest of us out, stole back the master key she had lent me, and locked the door again.`@

Side comment:

Quote:

bg black,22
; しかし、それより最初に目に入るのは、@………部屋を入ってすぐのところにうつ伏せに倒れている郷田さ んの遺体だった…。\
`But the thing that caught the eye before that, `@`.........was Gohda-san's corpse lying facedown right in front of the door...`\
br

bg blood_1b,22

; 胸のど真ん中に、まるで吸血鬼に止めでも刺すみたいに、例の悪魔の杭がぶち込まれていた。@
`Right in the center of his chest, almost as though it had been stuck there to finish off a vampire, one of those demon stakes from before had been rammed in.`@

Was this a translation error? If he's lying facedown, how could Battler see a stake in Gohda's chest? (Or was Gohda lying faceup, or was the stake in Gohda's back?)

Generally speaking, doors with chain locks or door bars (the U-shaped metal pieces that flip over a center bar) always open into a room. It's certainly possible to do otherwise, you just usually don't.

And yes, I realize Natsuhi's room may not have a chain on the door. One is never mentioned specifically. However, other bedrooms in the mansion apparently do, and it's relatively unusual for a floorplan to include similar or identical rooms with different door hinge directions. Not impossible, but it's a general architectural faux pas for doors to similar rooms to swing different directions. Usually only external doors would swing outward (into the hallway instead of outside), but I can't say I'm an expert on older building design.

Generally you don't have doors opening into a hallway because you don't want to obstruct the hallway.

The main issue though is that most of the descriptions of the bedroom doors in the series appear to suggest that they swing inward, yet this one particular scene intimates the opposite. But I think there are better explanations than "this inconsistency is some sort of clue," such as the aforementioned notion that it was just a mistake. Ryukishi forgot an entire door exists, I'm sure he'd readily forget that doors usually only swing one direction.

I posted this some time ago, albeit really badly explained! So, this time I hope to have explained myself better.

I just want to say that Rosa is still my murderer. This is to do with the most vital of clues...but I want to discuss something which is way more important! Don't worry I shall talk about why later.

The ShKanon Theory in my opinion is not right and does not work. I will explain now why:

1) EP5 - Erika talks to everyone

Of course the biggest piece of all and the one thing every person in this thread must be sick of reading but still stands. Erika saw both Kanon and Shannon in this room together. NEVER WAS ERIKA’S POSITION DISCUSSED and anyway even if it had been, so we cannot justify ShKanon by saying that one could have been behind her. Eirika is the objective detective she will see through illusions. Also Knox's 8th states:

It is forbidden for the case to be solved without clues that are presented.

There was never any indication of Erika's position being significant, or that Shannon/Kanon could be behind her.

2) EP2 - 1st Twilight Paradox

Shannon and Kanon were seen together here again but by Battler. When he came in, he saw the bodies and saw everyone else who was already there. Shannon and Kanon held George and Jessica back respectively. That was pointed out by Battler himself. Battler is the detective in EP1-4. Thus, he will see through illusions. Kanon and Shannon are different people because they were noticed by Battler to be 2 different people

3) EP6 - People Count, Erika's Finale

Erika says I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima, and Beatrice and Battler refute the claim and say Even if you do join us - there are 17 people.

Remember please – Erika says she is the 18th person, but Beato and Battler refute that and what happens? SHE DIES IN THE METAWORLD. The whole reason Erika died was that in reality it had been acknowledged that she had died – the reality that she was not actually alive in EP1-4 was being acknowledged.

HOWEVER, in red it is acknowledged that she is the 18th HUMAN (which means then that dead people are included) and even being included in the total people count (notice people and not humans are being said here), there are only 17 people, she cannot be this 17th person because it already acknowledged in red that she is the 18th, meaning she has to be dead. THUS, there are 17 people alive on this island and so Kanon and Shannon have to be 2 separate people (notice, Erika cannot be the 17th person as she is DEAD I cannot emphasise this enough, no my maths is not bad AuraTwilight, you just didn't understand the argument).

THUS, if dead people are counted towards the total then the people count should be 18 at least as Kinzo in gold was revealed to be dead and it would be 19 actually because the dead Kuwadorian Beato NEVER left the island + all of those people which Kinzo fought like 50 years ago would be included (the Japanese and Italians), but we do NOT include dead people otherwise we have massive problems with this. ERIKA IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL. Shannon and Kanon must be 2 SEPARATE PEOPLE for this to work to bring the total up to 17.

5) The Master Keys

EP3, EP8 - it is said in red that There are five master keys, one for each of the five servants.

It had been acknowledged in red that there are 5 servants, so surely S & K must be different then because the servants are counted as 2 different people. They EACH have 1 master key, the red here implies that Kanon and Shannon are carrying 2 DIFFERENT keys and so are 2 different entities (to bring the servant count up to 5).

6) EP3 - Chained Rooms, 1st Twilight

In EP4, in the tea party, this is taken a step further, Beatrice said in reply to closed room chain: All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants. This must mean that the parents when they went into the Kanon’s and Shannon’s respective rooms, THEY FOUND ACTUAL BODIES OF BOTH.

7) – Shannon & Kanon are acknowledged BY THE RED as 2 separate people, time and time again:

a) For example, 6 PEOPLE: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Godha and Kumasawa are dead, it's not so much the dead bit here (because you could say oh Shannon and Kanon are dead but Yasu isn't), but the fact that Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE to bring the total up to 6 people. Otherwise, if they were the same person (which is what Yasu counts for just 1 person) then it should be counted as 5 people.

b) This is emphasised time and time again in EP3 - 1st Twilight (everything said here points to the presence of 6 people), the 6 people died instantly and Nanjo's murder, the 15 people mentioned are dead.

c) And in EP4, it was said that Among the five people in Kyrie's group, Kanon was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim. People count bit which is interesting here. It suggests that Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 different people.

S & K ARE ALWAYS ACKNOWLEDGED BY THE RED INDIRECTLY/DIRECTLY TO BE 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE. This is shown in EP2, 3 and 4.

8) EP1 Paradox, Shannon and Kanon are next to each other in the Shed.

People say that the Shannon was a fake, 3 counters to this, coming from EP4 which people seem to forget:

a) Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. What does this mean exactly? Well, it obviously means that the corpse that was apparently Shannon’s in the shed was definitely Shannon’s. Why is this ignored?
b) There were no unidentified corpses, and all the survivors have alibis in reference to Natsuhi’s ‘suicide’, let’s ignore the 2nd part. The fact that existence of unidentified corpses has been denied means Shannon cannot have substituted a body which is not from the 18 people. At the same time, No body double tricks exist was also said, so we know that it can’t even be one of the 18.
c) In reply to people who say that there was no 6th body, Battler had acknowledged it himself and had seen it, he didn’t confirm its identity was all. Battler is the detective and so there definitely exists a corpse.

Following these trails of logic, we can conclude therefore that the corpse (which Battler had seen therefore making it an actual corpse) was Shannon’s.

Kanon was in the shed at the same time, he was identifying Shannon’s body with Hideyoshi. The fact that he and Hideyoshi had both IDENTIFIED THE CORPSE AS SHANNON’S, it means that the corpse was Shannon. Shannon was confirmed by Kanon himself to be in a different body to himself.

9) Another point about the Shkanon theory, why must Kanon not leaving a corpse behind mean Shannon = Kanon? There are 2 points I want to raise with this:
a) Kanon’s corpse is said to be hidden, but in EVERY episode except EP2 we are provided with some sort of explanation for WHERE IT IS, but why then are these explanations ignored? There exists no evidence to say he couldn’t be in an actual location…in EP1, it is clear he is in the room where Nanjo treated him, yes we don’t see him, but we are provided with an explanation for where he is, in EP3 he is dead in the church, in EP4 he is dead in the well, the existence of which has been alluded to in EP7, and EP8. Yes I admit he may not really be in those locations. BUT ONLY IN EPISODE 2 are we provided with an instance where it is unclear where Kanon had disappeared off to.
b) Kanon’s corpse can be HIDDEN (why is this immediately seen as an unsatisfactory solution?). There exist COUNTLESS places to hide Kanon’s corpse, where NOBODY except a select few would know: 1) Below the Chapel, i.e. where the gold is hidden, 2) Kuwadorian Mansion, 3) The passage to Kuwadorian alluded to in EP4 – The Dungeon (remember?), 4) Secret Passage where Beatrice, Battler and Eva are escaping in EP8, 5) Remember at the end of EP8, there was the bit where Beatrice and Battler were diving together, Kanon’s corpse could be here, 6) Ocean (brilliant place to hide corpse).

Hiding places are alluded to all the time. Secret passages exist THAT CAN BE USED because they have been alluded to in the story and which the story primarily revolves around (i.e. Kuwadorian Mansion and below the chapel with the hidden gold).

10) Gender Confusion, no evidence

Knox's 8th prevents ShKanon from occurring in the 1st place, because there was no evidence to suggest that Yasu was sexually confused, there was never anything written in the story that her physical appearance, her genitalia primarily, were mangled. The story had never given alluded to Yasu/Shannon/Kanon were physically disabled. Also regarding body doubles, don't clues have to be presented for this to work, was it ever shown that Shannon could pass off as Kanon or vice versa?

Conclusion

ShKanon is purely metaphorical. Yasu is completely metaphorical concept, used to explain the closeness of 2 people rather than Yasu herself being a person creating 2 different people.

The suffering, the anguish of 2 different people are brought together into Yasu. I think it's not at all Yasu creating 2 different people but the fact that Kanon and Shannon (2 distinct people) were immensely close and so shared with each other their ideas and dreams and then when one died, the other would take up their ideas and dreams (so become one with them) and as a result create Yasu who would then complete both people's dreams instead of just the initial one.

Here's my theory:

1) Kanon and Shannon are 2 different people to begin with
2) They are close and share their dreams/ideas with each other
3) One dies by accident or EP6 duel actually happens
4) The one who survives takes up the ideas and dreams of the other and thus is living one life but for 2 people
5) whether this includes murder or not (so whether they are the culprit or not) is not being contested FOR THE MOMENT, it may be limited

Please comment, any criticism on my theory would be much appreciated. I will follow up with why I think Shannon and Kanon are not culprits and why Rosa is...

I understand that it's Beato game-board, however then is Battler the reader? Does that mean that there's no falsehoods in any narrated text because Battler is the detective in Ep2? If Battler is seeing the game-board directly from Beato then how come he doesn't see what really happens?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

Knox's 8th prevents ShKanon from occurring in the 1st place

Knox's 8th doesn't need to explain gender confusion, as shkanon can still exist without that. On the other-hand Shkannon itself is hinted manytimesthroughout EP2 (I'm reading EP2 right now, but I assume also in EP1).

As for your point on the red it's possible for them (Kanon and Shannon) to mentioned separately in red because of persona being separate from physical bodies (without love it cannot be seen), however the point of the parents collecting 5 keys from different pockets is a good one, but there are also ways around that. That said this doesn't deny that shkanon is actually R07's red herring. I don't follow the discussion, so I don't know the consensus on this stuff.

I understand that it's Beato game-board, however then is Battler the reader? Does that mean that there's no falsehoods in any narrated text because Battler is the detective in Ep2? If Battler is seeing the game-board directly from Beato then how come he doesn't see what really happens?

Meta-Battler's piece is the detective, but Beatrice is the one controlling the presentation of the game board, so she's the reader. I think someone (Bern?) actually said in EP8 that reading is the witch's responsibility in one of these games, and the only reason Bern's game had no falsehoods in narrated text was because she deliberately discarded that power.

Personal belief: Even the rule that Piece-Battler's perspective can't contain fantasy is nothing more than etiquette on Beatrice's part so that their mystery versus fantasy game can take place. Once she's done presenting mysteries, there's nothing actually stopping her from having demon goats show up and eat him, which is pretty much what she did at the end of EP2.

__________________

"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

Generally demon goats only show up after midnight, the implication being that Battler has just died in the explosion and Beatrice can show whatever she wants, as there are no witnesses.

Quote:

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed.

I believe this trick is a little different to how you see it. The point from the start was that Battler was saying the corpses with all of their faces destroyed had not been identified accurately, and therefore could be fakes. So this red was used to destroy that. The reason this worked was because from the start the pretend Shannon's corpse was always identified as Shannon's corpse, so was never unidentified. If you reread the manga or VN, Battler never actually saw it directly.

Pikablu, do you really think we haven't heard all your arguments before?

Quote:

EP5 - Erika talks to everyone

EP5 is a fanfiction, Lambda doesn't care about the heart of the game, she gave Kanon a separate body as a troll etc. If you don't like that, you can go with the 'Battler is an unreliable narrator from EP5, and all scenes with Shannon/Kanon are from his POV' version. Or the 'there was only one servant there really and this servant's actions are represented in the narrative by two characters' version (notice how they do everything together, like carrying the umbrellas and closing the parlor door?).

Quote:

2) EP2 - 1st Twilight Paradox

Uh...what are you even talking about? Shannon and Genji left the chapel before Battler arrived. To go and see Kinzo, apparently. You know, the guy who's actually dead. Kanon was the only one at the chapel when Battler got there.

Quote:

EP6 - People Count, Erika's Finale

'Humans' means that dead people are included? Never heard that one before, but by that theory, Kinzo should be counted too. Oh dear, then that would mean that there are 18 humans including Erika and Kinzo's bodies, wouldn't it? That would make for a total of 16 living bodies, then, right? Now what theory does that sound like?

Quote:

5) The Master Keys

Shannon and Kanon are two separate personalities, and are acknowledged in red as such several times. Of course they count as two servants. Also, Our Confession confirms that Yasu does carry two master keys.

Quote:

6) EP3 - Chained Rooms, 1st Twilight

Ryukishi explained this in an interview.

Quote:

K That’s true. I despaired about the mystery of the linked locked rooms until the very end. Will said that „The end and the beginning overlap“, but…

R It’s a metaphor, so even the people who understood the hint, seem to have done so only barely. But because I wrote it that way to distract the people who did not understand, I won’t explain it further now.

K I made a guess that „The guestroom on the first floor is the key“. It’s the pattern that Shannon and Kanon are alive, I think.

R The keyword is „Among the 6 locked rooms, there is only 1 on the first floor.“. If you give it some common sense, at that point there was no hypothesis made about the locked room of the chapel. No one came close of the chapel, it was just thought of as locked. If you exclude the chapel, there is 1 locked room on the first floor, then 2 rooms on the second floor, 1 on the third floor and the one in the downstairs boiler room. And if those were locked from the inside, and there was no key to open them, then…

K Then it’s natural to enter through the first floor window.

R And if you look at it like this is all scatters. In this chain of 6 locked rooms where each locked room can be broken that way, there was a big hint which room was entered first, at least I think so. For me it’s actually quite embarrassing that I have to answer this right now *laugh*.

Quote:

7) – Shannon & Kanon are acknowledged BY THE RED as 2 separate people, time and time again:

Two people in one body.

Quote:

8) EP1 Paradox, Shannon and Kanon are next to each other in the Shed.

Battler did not see Shannon's corpse. He never mentions seeing Shannon during the narration. He mentions the other five, but not her. In other words, something vaguely body-shaped was lying in the corner, but nothing sophisticated enough to be called a body double. Will said that if George had entered the shed, he'd have noticed immediately. Also, Rosatrice theory also needs something like this, you know.

Quote:

9) Another point about the Shkanon theory, why must Kanon not leaving a corpse behind mean Shannon = Kanon? There are 2 points I want to raise with this:

It doesn't have to mean that. That doesn't mean that it isn't true.

Quote:

10) Gender Confusion, no evidence

There's a lot of evidence pointing to Shannon and Kanon sharing the same body, and a HUGE amount of passages that talk about different personalities for different situations, building different identities for oneself, etc. Once you get that much, you can deduce the gender confusion part for yourself.

If you still don't believe me, you might find this thread interesting. I managed to convince several people who had previously disbelieved in Shkanontrice over there.

there was only one servant there really and this servant's actions are represented in the narrative by two characters' version (notice how they do everything together, like carrying the umbrellas and closing the parlor door?).

Actually sadly I think there was one point where they were said to be doing very different things. One was pouring tea and one was at the door or something.

@roger I couldn't find anything about pushing or pulling a door in those quotes. Also that last quote is not a translation error. Maybe it's worthwhile noting "しかし、それより最初に目に入るのは、@………部屋を入ってすぐのところにうつ伏せに倒れている 郷田さ んの遺体だった…。" doesn't -explicitly- mention anything about a door (it says Gohda was lying face down in the place you get to as soon as you enter the room).

I agree with Drifloon's arguments countering your points, Pikablu, but there are some things I'll add to that, and some questions for your conclusions and theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

1) Also Knox's 8th states:

It is forbidden for the case to be solved without clues that are presented.

There was never any indication of Erika's position being significant, or that Shannon/Kanon could be behind her.

There are many clues presented in Umineko for Shannon and Kanon being the same person. Your use of Knox's 8th above is inapplicable, unless you can prove that there are no clues to Shkanon presented in Umineko, which I really don't think is possible for you to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

9) Another point about the Shkanon theory, why must Kanon not leaving a corpse behind mean Shannon = Kanon?

Like Drifloon says, it doesn't have to. However, in a situation where there are two "people" with one body, then if they both die for real, one of them must not leave a corpse. (Can't have two people in one body and also have a separate corpse for each of them!)

But since you're on that topic - counter this section from ep 8, if you can. Why does Kanon go missing forever any time that Shannon gets killed? If Kanon and Shannon are not the same person, what does this section mean?

Quote:

Bern: "......At the time Shannon is killed, Kanon goes missing forever. From now on, Kanon is treated as being killed. Also, Kanon's master key is treated as being destroyed."

Lambadelta: "Well, I thought it'd be rude, so I kept quiet about it, but that's what happens when Shannon dies."

Beato: "In other words, we can say that Shannon and Kanon were killed at the same time, even though we're missing a corpse?"

Bern: "That's right."

Anyway, now onto looking at your theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

ShKanon is purely metaphorical. Yasu is completely metaphorical concept, used to explain the closeness of 2 people rather than Yasu herself being a person creating 2 different people.

The suffering, the anguish of 2 different people are brought together into Yasu. I think it's not at all Yasu creating 2 different people but the fact that Kanon and Shannon (2 distinct people) were immensely close and so shared with each other their ideas and dreams and then when one died, the other would take up their ideas and dreams (so become one with them) and as a result create Yasu who would then complete both people's dreams instead of just the initial one.

Here's my theory:

1) Kanon and Shannon are 2 different people to begin with
2) They are close and share their dreams/ideas with each other
3) One dies by accident or EP6 duel actually happens
4) The one who survives takes up the ideas and dreams of the other and thus is living one life but for 2 people
5) whether this includes murder or not (so whether they are the culprit or not) is not being contested FOR THE MOMENT, it may be limited

Okay then, I have questions for you to respond to. There are many more, but these are just a few.

- If Shannon and Kanon are fully separate people, why was Beatrice also a participant in the Love Duel?

- Why is it that only one of Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice's loves could be fulfilled, and why is it that they could only become human and fulfill their love if the other two were defeated and disappeared? Can you explain this with your theory without contradicting the game?

The reason given in the games is that they did not possess a complete soul, and in order for one of them to realise their love and obtain a complete soul, the "incomplete souls" of Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice had to become one. The three of them add up to one person. The duel was a way of deciding who must vanish/die in order for the victor to be complete.

- Knox’s 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. What is your evidence for saying that when one out of Kanon or Shannon dies, the other one takes on their hopes and dreams and lives for two people?

I say that extremely clear evidence contradicting your idea of them taking on the other's dreams exists.

Shannon and Kanon's dreams conflict with each other. Early in the game, they talk about their dreams as "contradicting dreams". Later, the Love Duel makes it clear that only one of their dreams can be realised, and that for one of them to get what they want, it will be be by "crushing" the happiness of the other. Shannon wants to leave the island and marry George. Kanon wants to stay on the island and develop his relationship with Jessica.

How can one of them live for two and fulfill both of their dreams the way you claim?

Quote:

Shannon: "So,......since it's a cat box, the world where I spend my life with George-sama and the world where you spend your life with Milady can both exist at the same time."

Kanon: "......It's a world where any contradicting dreams can exist at once."

- If Shannon and Kanon are completely separate people, how did Kanon save Battler in ep 6? And why was it that that "trick is a part of Beato's heart" which, when used, means that "part of Beato's heart will be exposed"?

- If they are completely separate people, why did Shannon go all blue screen of death at Will back in ep 7 when she was asked to bring Kanon so that Will could talk to the pair of them at the same time?

I just want to say that Rosa is still my murderer. This is to do with the most vital of clues...but I want to discuss something which is way more important! Don't worry I shall talk about why later.

The ShKanon Theory in my opinion is not right and does not work.

Good for you. Having your own interpretation of the truth is actually the whole point of Umineko, so I'm not going to argue against your theory, but you should really do the same. Plus Shkanon was kinda the intended answer, just saying.

Quote:

1) EP5 - Erika talks to everyone

If that's about the notorious parlor scene, there's no red confirming the actual number of people in the room. Plus Lambdadelta and Bern were totally in cahoots there, so as long as there's no red, they can just look the other way.

Or, if Erika was in on the Shkanon stuff by then, it's possible to show an illusion with both of them in the same place at the same time.

Quote:

Battler is the detective in EP1-4.

Say, what?

Quote:

Thus, he will see through illusions. Kanon and Shannon are different people because they were noticed by Battler to be 2 different people

Okay, that is just totally wrong. Battler cannot see through illusions, and he never made a detective proclamation in any Episode, so I really don't see where the assumption that he is the detective comes from. He is the main character and no one ever proclaimed him to be a detective. Even Erika can't skip the detective proclamation in order for her to have all the detective "super-powers".

But even if he were, that doesn't mean he'd know they're two different people right away.

Quote:

3) EP6 - People Count, Erika's Finale

Remember please – Erika says she is the 18th person, but Beato and Battler refute that and what happens? SHE DIES IN THE METAWORLD. The whole reason Erika died was that in reality it had been acknowledged that she had died – the reality that she was not actually alive in EP1-4 was being acknowledged.

It's really as simple as even if Erika joins, they are seventeen. Someone, I think it was Aura even posted it as a math equation, how simpler can it get?

Okay, Erika says '18th human' but the red truth has a bad history of term-definition, so that doesn't even count.

You can get round it by many ways. Human refers to personalites and not physical bodies, Erika can say 18th because she is witnessed by almost everyone as the 18th person and therefore 18th is a title and not an actual thing, you name it.

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THUS, if dead people are counted towards the total then the people count should be 18 at least as Kinzo in gold was revealed to be dead and it would be 19 actually because the dead Kuwadorian Beato NEVER left the island + all of those people which Kinzo fought like 50 years ago would be included (the Japanese and Italians), but we do NOT include dead people otherwise we have massive problems with this. ERIKA IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL. Shannon and Kanon must be 2 SEPARATE PEOPLE for this to work to bring the total up to 17.

This isn't conclusive either. They are reffering to the total amount of people in the island generally, goes without saying, at the beginning of the game(?) or perhaps the game's pieces or something.

Plus the red truth is Even if you join us there are 17. It means that it becomes 17 if Erika joins in, so it's 16 without Erika. What is there not to get?

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5) The Master Keys

EP3, EP8 - it is said in red that There are five master keys, one for each of the five servants.

It had been acknowledged in red that there are 5 servants, so surely S & K must be different then because the servants are counted as 2 different people. They EACH have 1 master key, the red here implies that Kanon and Shannon are carrying 2 DIFFERENT keys and so are 2 different entities (to bring the servant count up to 5).

True, but they are two different mental entities, two different characters, if you like. Kanon is a servant. Shannon is another servant. They are the same person, but two different characters. The holly trinity is a good example of this. Three gods in one, or one god in three?

At any rate, it is generally accepted in the context of Umineko that personalities can be counted as different people as long as we are not reffering to their 'physical existence'. Let me give the first twilight of EP3 as an example, since this has been brought up countless times about it. You can't say Six dead bodies were found., but you can say Six dead people were found, people here reffering to the personalities. The same can be said for the master keys.

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6) EP3 - Chained Rooms, 1st Twilight

In EP4, in the tea party, this is taken a step further, Beatrice said in reply to closed room chain: All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants. This must mean that the parents when they went into the Kanon’s and Shannon’s respective rooms, THEY FOUND ACTUAL BODIES OF BOTH.

They found two bodies of both as far as they were concerned.

Plus, I know this will sound kind of ridiculous, but anyway, if Kanon and Shanon are one body but two different personalities, can't we say the same thing goes for their possesions? Or to be specific, their clothes? For example, we have Kanon's uniform and Shannon's uniform, and it's more stable than calling them different people to say that Kanon's pocket is different than Shannon's pocket. You're just twisting this too much to suit your theory.

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7) – Shannon & Kanon are acknowledged BY THE RED as 2 separate people, time and time again:

a) For example, 6 PEOPLE: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Godha and Kumasawa are dead, it's not so much the dead bit here (because you could say oh Shannon and Kanon are dead but Yasu isn't), but the fact that Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE to bring the total up to 6 people. Otherwise, if they were the same person (which is what Yasu counts for just 1 person) then it should be counted as 5 people.

Except Ruykishi spends pages, and pages, and hours of our lives saying "Oh, in Umineko, people = personalities". Regardless of wether that logic is acceptable or not, this is how things work in Umineko. Just make peace with it.

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c) And in EP4, it was said that Among the five people in Kyrie's group, Kanon was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim. People count bit which is interesting here. It suggests that Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 different people.

Well that's not any different in the Shkanon theory.

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S & K ARE ALWAYS ACKNOWLEDGED BY THE RED INDIRECTLY/DIRECTLY TO BE 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE. This is shown in EP2, 3 and 4.

Oh! Beatrice can cheat with the red?

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8) EP1 Paradox, Shannon and Kanon are next to each other in the Shed.

a) Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. What does this mean exactly? Well, it obviously means that the corpse that was apparently Shannon’s in the shed was definitely Shannon’s. Why is this ignored?

b) There were no unidentified corpses, and all the survivors have alibis in reference to Natsuhi’s ‘suicide’, let’s ignore the 2nd part. The fact that existence of unidentified corpses has been denied means Shannon cannot have substituted a body which is not from the 18 people. At the same time, No body double tricks exist was also said, so we know that it can’t even be one of the 18.

Because rather than a fake body, there was no body at all.

And it's obvious Hideyoshi is lying to George.

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9) Another point about the Shkanon theory, why must Kanon not leaving a corpse behind mean Shannon = Kanon? There are 2 points I want to raise with this:
a) Kanon’s corpse is said to be hidden, but in EVERY episode except EP2 we are provided with some sort of explanation for WHERE IT IS, but why then are these explanations ignored? There exists no evidence to say he couldn’t be in an actual location…in EP1, it is clear he is in the room where Nanjo treated him, yes we don’t see him, but we are provided with an explanation for where he is, in EP3 he is dead in the church, in EP4 he is dead in the well, the existence of which has been alluded to in EP7, and EP8. Yes I admit he may not really be in those locations. BUT ONLY IN EPISODE 2 are we provided with an instance where it is unclear where Kanon had disappeared off to.

Pity that narrations and witnesses count little more than shit in Umineko. Plus it's not necessary for him to 'disappear' unless Yasu-Shannon actually dies.

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b) Kanon’s corpse can be HIDDEN (why is this immediately seen as an unsatisfactory solution?). There exist COUNTLESS places to hide Kanon’s corpse, where NOBODY except a select few would know: 1) Below the Chapel, i.e. where the gold is hidden, 2) Kuwadorian Mansion, 3) The passage to Kuwadorian alluded to in EP4 – The Dungeon (remember?), 4) Secret Passage where Beatrice, Battler and Eva are escaping in EP8, 5) Remember at the end of EP8, there was the bit where Beatrice and Battler were diving together, Kanon’s corpse could be here, 6) Ocean (brilliant place to hide corpse).

So why is it that Knox's 8th about clues has to apply everytime it can be used to doubt the 'official solution' but it is insignficant whenever we can just make up whatever we want in order to disagree with it? Is there even one point in the story that suggests Kanon's body was hidden in any of those places?

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10) Gender Confusion, no evidence

Knox's 8th prevents ShKanon from occurring in the 1st place, because there was no evidence to suggest that Yasu was sexually confused, there was never anything written in the story that her physical appearance, her genitalia primarily, were mangled.

Yasu's gender is not one of the mysteries you need to solve. Also their physical appearance is visible. Most people thought Kanon was a girl first time they saw him, but of course I'll agree that can't count as clues.

Thing is, Yasu's gender is not one of the mysteries a reader has to solve. You can just wonder once you realize Shannon is Kanon, like, 'so, is it fake boobs or the other way round?'. It's not impossible, (rather, it's likely) to get there.

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The story had never given alluded to Yasu/Shannon/Kanon were physically disabled.

"Boohoo, I'm furniture, I can't love Geroge-sama because I'm furniture."
"Furniture isn't allowed to love."
"I'm grateful for your feelings, Milady, but I can't return them because I'm furniture."
"Furniture is inferior to humans because they can't love."

We could go on about this all day long.

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Also regarding body doubles, don't clues have to be presented for this to work, was it ever shown that Shannon could pass off as Kanon or vice versa?

Apparently they could, since it happened. And I'll ask once more, why is it that you remember Knox's existence every time it isn't about making all sorts of shit up?

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Conclusion

ShKanon is purely metaphorical. Yasu is completely metaphorical concept, used to explain the closeness of 2 people rather than Yasu herself being a person creating 2 different people.

Care to explain where you get that from? Or is it that Knox's 8th doesn't count now?

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Here's my theory:

1) Kanon and Shannon are 2 different people to begin with
2) They are close and share their dreams/ideas with each other
3) One dies by accident or EP6 duel actually happens
4) The one who survives takes up the ideas and dreams of the other and thus is living one life but for 2 people
5) whether this includes murder or not (so whether they are the culprit or not) is not being contested FOR THE MOMENT, it may be limited

3)Knox's 8th... and also, why would they have to duel about George and Jessica? Where the both of them going to get married or something?

I don't know, but you call Shkanon just wrong, this is, in my opinion, more twisted and unrealistic.

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Please comment, any criticism on my theory would be much appreciated. I will follow up with why I think Shannon and Kanon are not culprits and why Rosa is...

Look forward to hearing, but if this is KnownNoMore's Theory, I have to say it's the most ridiculous piece of shit I've ever had the misfortune to hear.

That said this doesn't deny that shkanon is actually R07's red herring. I don't follow the discussion, so I don't know the consensus on this stuff.

Anti-ShKanon people are a sizable minority. They are more rare on this forum than other places, though, as there is a very high concentration of staunch, intelligent pro-ShKanon people here ready to debate them.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Personal belief: Even the rule that Piece-Battler's perspective can't contain fantasy is nothing more than etiquette on Beatrice's part so that their mystery versus fantasy game can take place. Once she's done presenting mysteries, there's nothing actually stopping her from having demon goats show up and eat him, which is pretty much what she did at the end of EP2.

Yeah, I think this is it. She's the one presenting a story so she can present whatever she wants. It's just a matter of whether we/Battler can trust her game to be fair. The rest of it doesn't really matter in that regard.

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Originally Posted by pikablu

3) EP6 - People Count, Erika's Finale
...
The whole reason Erika died was that in reality it had been acknowledged that she had died.

Your interpretation makes the 17 people statement a complete non-sequitur to the duel; even though the duel was supposed to be "to the death" over the logic error, and Erika was wounded from points made regarding the logic error.

In other words, your interpretation is thematically inelegant compared to an interpretation that also incorporates the 17 people line as relevant to the logic error argument.

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Originally Posted by pikablu

5) The Master Keys

Here's the relevant reds dropping all the redundant ones:There are five (master keys), one for each servant.The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per person.

"Servant" in this case can refer to the position, not the person. This is apparent by the following thought experiment:
If all the servants but Genji died and the statement "There are five master keys, one for each servant." was made, would you call a logic error because only 1 servant (Genji) exists at the time? I don't think you would.

And before you point it out, in the "one per person" part of that second red, the word "person" there is a translation artifact. "Person" is never said in that line in the original Japanese:"マスターキーは使用人たちがそれぞれ持つ一本のみ". I think it would be better translated as "The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per servant".

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Originally Posted by pikablu

6) EP3 - Chained Rooms, 1st Twilight

As Drifloon says, this was just 'Yasu' playing dead in the first room and then going to the last room while the investigators were busy with all the other rooms. My very recent post on Our Confessions even explains this in detail.

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Originally Posted by pikablu

7) – Shannon & Kanon are acknowledged BY THE RED as 2 separate people, time and time again:

a) For example, 6 PEOPLE: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Godha and Kumasawa are dead
b) This is emphasised time and time again in EP3 - 1st Twilight (everything said here points to the presence of 6 people), the 6 people died instantly and Nanjo's murder, the 15 people mentioned are dead.

A 'person' is a union between a living body and a single personality (of course dead bodies cannot unify with personalities at all). However, this does not mean that living bodies always contain the same personality.
In other words, when counting existing people, you always count by living bodies. However, it's possible to kill a person by killing only their personality and not their body, so the number of dead people and dead bodies can be different.

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Originally Posted by pikablu

c) And in EP4, it was said that Among the five people in Kyrie's group, Kanon was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim. People count bit which is interesting here. It suggests that Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 different people.

There are two ways to interpret this statement:
1) "Kyrie's group" is a factual reference to 5 people who were together. But we don't necessarily know who those people are besides Kanon and Kyrie. Obviously, this interpretation gets around any kinds of ShKanon issues. But this is actually not how I interpret it.
2) "Kyrie's group" is a logical category consisting of the 5 people presented as being together: Kanon, Shannon, Nanjo, Krauss, Kyrie. In this case, since it's an entirely logical categorization, the actual status of these people is irrelevant to whether they are included in the group; they are a group by definition. Even if none of these people were together or even if none of them existed, "Kyrie's group" would still be defined as consisting of these 5 people. So, add in ShKanon Replacement Theory and we can have a group consisting of 5 people that never had more than 4 of those people existing at a time, but still had all 5 of them die.

By the way, EP4 is really, really hard to explain without using a culprit from the people in "Kyrie's group". It's not a good episode for Rosatrice theory.

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Originally Posted by pikablu

8) EP1 Paradox, Shannon and Kanon are next to each other in the Shed.
c) In reply to people who say that there was no 6th body, Battler had acknowledged it himself and had seen it, he didn’t confirm its identity was all. Battler is the detective and so there definitely exists a corpse.

On arrival to the scene Battler did acknowledge that there were more corpses than he could count on one hand. It doesn't mean he saw 6 with his eyes.

George guessed there was a 6th corpse lying at Hideyoshi's feet entirely by Hideyoshi's posture. It's reasonable to imagine Battler did the same, especially since he didn't know who the corpse was either.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

Okay, that is just totally wrong. Battler cannot see through illusions, and he never made a detective proclamation in any Episode, so I really don't see where the assumption that he is the detective comes from. He is the main character and no one ever proclaimed him to be a detective.

Dlanor did in EP5:Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

Although I find it kind of iffy myself. Feels like that part should be blue.

You guys waste an awful lot of time when we could all just point out that Shkanon is clearly, by text and interviews, Ryukishi's intended solution, so it doesn't actually matter how stupid it is, or how specifically it works (as I've pointed out repeatedly, Ryukishi doesn't really consider in any detail how it actually works, but he clearly intends that it does work).

I don't like it either, but other than that one ep5 scene you're not going to find something in there that contradicts the notion. Admittedly, one counter-proof ought to disprove the whole thing, but there are enough problems surrounding that story which are never explained (such as "how does it even work in the first place?") that it isn't clear that it is a counter-proof.

And even if it's just a mistake, you can't change the author's interpretation based on a mistake. You can argue the author's mistake hurts the work, but honestly at this point I think he's staked his claim on what he actually intends and there's not much point saying otherwise. There are other things he left pretty vague, but this is one he basically hammered home about as hard as he possibly could after Dawn.

You guys waste an awful lot of time when we could all just point out that Shkanon is clearly, by text and interviews, Ryukishi's intended solution, so it doesn't actually matter how stupid it is, or how specifically it works (as I've pointed out repeatedly, Ryukishi doesn't really consider in any detail how it actually works, but he clearly intends that it does work).

Well, yes. He's not Mr Logical Detail, and quite a lot of Umineko's intended solution is on the silly side. Lo, witness Ryukishi, the writer who sets his story in a typhoon and then says that the culprit who went out in the rain didn't get wet and we don't need to consider whether or not they did. But! That doesn't mean that it isn't interesting to argue over the solution and the evidence presented.

There's no real way around Shkanon and Shkanontrice without making a mockery of the entire series, true, but some people evidently dislike the solution enough that they're willing to ignore that and say that Shkanontrice makes more of a mockery of the series. (...I'm not so sure how they get to thinking that, but okay.) And so, it's fun to argue the situation, if people bring interesting theories. I don't think that, say, Pikablu's theory above could be correct because of its conflicts with the series, but I would enjoy seeing if they can come up with a creative/interesting/plausible solution to the problems a non-Shkanontrice solution would pose regardless.

Dlanor did in EP5:Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

Although I find it kind of iffy myself. Feels like that part should be blue.

This one's interesting. I'd completely forgot about that red truth, to be honest, but still, I think detective here doesn't mean anything close to Erika's super-Sherlock gimmicks, because Battler never used any pompous title like that ever in the first four EPs, and it kinda doesn't feel right to associate him with that role. Most probably, it is intended to say 'the observer through whose eyes we witness the events and who must have a reliable POV', or something.

Well, maybe Battler fulfils those requirements, so maybe if he'd stepped into the shed to look for Shannon's corpse he'd ruin everything, but I really think he's just duped before investigating.

So, he's.... a lazy/dumbass detective?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

And even if it's just a mistake, you can't change the author's interpretation based on a mistake. You can argue the author's mistake hurts the work, but honestly at this point I think he's staked his claim on what he actually intends and there's not much point saying otherwise. There are other things he left pretty vague, but this is one he basically hammered home about as hard as he possibly could after Dawn.

How much better would everything be if Ryukishi had bothered to be less vague about certain things? It's okay not to reveal Prime, but I think there are some issues which he should have adressed more clearly. Because it's just this unwilingness to discuss certain things which gives rise to all sorts of ridiculous "conspiracy theories" like KnownNoMore.

My guess is people are totally hitting that uncertainty because they are dissatisfied with the actual answer.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand

it's fun to argue the situation, if people bring interesting theories. I don't think that, say, Pikablu's theory above could be correct because of its conflicts with the series, but I would enjoy seeing if they can come up with a creative/interesting/plausible solution to the problems a non-Shkanontrice solution would pose regardless.

There's a difference between that and saying 'Wow! Ryukishi has tricked us all and created the most ingenious mystery novel of all times! Shkanon is for dorks, Ryukishi is god, the culprit is Rosa e.t.c.', because there are many people (a.k.a. all members of YouTube) who do that.

I've come across countles insane, fun and even genious theories in this forum which totally kicked my mental ass, but none based on the premise of some ridiculous conspiracy theory about a fake mystery novel set in a mystery novel which has yet another mystery novel hidden in its inner layer. Trying to get round the offical explanation for fun, just because there are other possibilities isn't making a mockery of the series, it's actually what was intended in the first place. Going all KnownNoMore about it is.

I don't like the solution and am dissatisfied with it on multiple levels... but it's the one he clearly meant to be true. Testing it for flaws is one thing, and speculating on silly things understanding they're intentionally silly is another. Hell, even making fan fiction that explicitly alters certain premises with the understanding that such a thing is non-canon but intended to be interesting is perfectly fine.

If, however, you're going to say "Ryukishi didn't actually mean it when he said all these things in favor of Shkanon, here's what he actually meant," you need to be willing to present a pretty airtight theory that accounts for everything in some fashion. It need not be right necessarily, as most of the solutions won't be unless they're Shkanon variants since Ryukishi has basically stated outright that Shkanon is true (at least in the board stories), but it needs to address flaws and say "this is generally interpreted like this, but it's wrong because of this." Yes, that leads to insane nine hour Youtube videos, but at least he's pretending to support it with something.

However, we've gone over just about every angle possible and at this point I don't see how the intended solution can be any clearer short of Ryukishi coming on here and posting "Yes, this is exactly what I meant."

Of course none of this is to say Rosa couldn't have been the Prime culprit. I suppose she's just as (un)likely as anybody else.

Nope, this is never said. It's also never said she saw everyone. As Erika's position is never discussed we can't say that position X is better than position Y so Erika has the same chances of being in a position from where she can see everyone as well as being in a position in which she can't.

People don't use her position to prove ShKannon. It's after ShKannon was proved and confirmed by Ryukishi they deducted something should have stopped Erika from observing them both at the same time.

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Originally Posted by pikablu

It is forbidden for the case to be solved without clues that are presented.

There was never any indication of Erika's position being significant, or that Shannon/Kanon could be behind her.

There's also no indication of the opposite. If this can't be used to prove ShKannon (and usually isn't) it can't either be used to disprove it, at least not in the way you're using it.

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Originally Posted by pikablu

Shannon and Kanon were seen together here again but by Battler. When he came in, he saw the bodies and saw everyone else who was already there.

It's wrong. Actually Shannon and Genji weren't there.

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She realized that by now, her whole body had been covered in filthy sweat...
"G, ...Genji-san, Shannon-chan, please ask Father for instructions. Gohda-san, go together with Kanon-kun and call the police. ...Then, have Doctor Nanjo come here..."

then we have everyone else join Rosa. Nowhere is said that Shannon or Kanon tried to stop the kids from seeing that scene. Jessica leaves planning to go to Beatrice. Gohda and Kanon are told to follow her and so they do. And much after we're told that:

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Genji and Shannon, who she had sent to see Kinzo, hadn't returned yet.

Ergo when the kids saw the corpses only Kanon was present. Shannon was officially with Kinzo.

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Originally Posted by pikablu

3) EP6 - People Count, Erika's Finale

This got discussed already and in better ways than I could do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

6) EP3 - Chained Rooms, 1st Twilight

In EP4, in the tea party, this is taken a step further, Beatrice said in reply to closed room chain: All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants. This must mean that the parents when they went into the Kanon’s and Shannon’s respective rooms, THEY FOUND ACTUAL BODIES OF BOTH.

The trick was already explained by Ryukishi. The people entered first where was Shannon and found a key in her pocket. Then they found the other corpses and, in the end they found Kanon. This gave Shannon enough time to stop pretending being dead, dressing up as Kanon, reaching the chapel and faking being a dead Kanon. Then Nanjo inspected her and since it was clearly stated by Ryukishi he's an accomplice he had no problems declaring Kanon was dead and maybe personally fishing from his pocket a key.

And no rule say Yasu can't own 2 keys, one for Shannon and one for Kanon. Actually the red seems to imply exactly this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

a) For example, 6 PEOPLE: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Godha and Kumasawa are dead, it's not so much the dead bit here (because you could say oh Shannon and Kanon are dead but Yasu isn't), but the fact that Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE to bring the total up to 6 people. Otherwise, if they were the same person (which is what Yasu counts for just 1 person) then it should be counted as 5 people.

It had been discussed many times so I'll summarize it as: for Kanon and Shannon it was solely personality dead, same as it was for Battler when he lost memory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

8) EP1 Paradox, Shannon and Kanon are next to each other in the Shed.

Battler however can't see Shannon. That Shannon in the shelve is likely as real as the fight between Beato and Virgilia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

a) Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. What does this mean exactly? Well, it obviously means that the corpse that was apparently Shannon’s in the shed was definitely Shannon’s. Why is this ignored?

As there was not a sixth corpse there was nothing to identify.
And again Ryukishi confirmed this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

c) In reply to people who say that there was no 6th body, Battler had acknowledged it himself and had seen it, he didn’t confirm its identity was all. Battler is the detective and so there definitely exists a corpse.

Where was it said that Battler saw a 6th corpse?

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Originally Posted by pikablu

EP4 he is dead in the well,

How did he fell in the well that's close in such a way Battler couldn't open it?

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Originally Posted by pikablu

b) Kanon’s corpse can be HIDDEN

Which would be the point of hiding solely Kanon's body?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

10) Gender Confusion, no evidence

Knox's 8th prevents ShKanon from occurring in the 1st place, because there was no evidence to suggest that Yasu was sexually confused, there was never anything written in the story that her physical appearance, her genitalia primarily, were mangled. The story had never given alluded to Yasu/Shannon/Kanon were physically disabled. Also regarding body doubles, don't clues have to be presented for this to work, was it ever shown that Shannon could pass off as Kanon or vice versa?

Actually in Ep 7 she claims she has a body that's impossible to love. It's also said that she's the baby that fell from a cliff and it's reasonable to suspect she suffered some sort of injury. Plus Ryukishi stated her breasts are fake.
And there's all Ep 6 that imply that Shannon adn Kanon are the same person pursuing different dreams of having a love story with 2 different people of different sex.

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Originally Posted by pikablu

ShKanon is purely metaphorical. Yasu is completely metaphorical concept, used to explain the closeness of 2 people rather than Yasu herself being a person creating 2 different people.

Which would be the point of doing all this? Skipping that, no, Shannon and Kanon don't share the same dream but opposite dreams, why to create Yasu to represent them and give Yasu a backstory that takes most of EP 7 to be told when they aren't the culprit and all this is a metaphor for something so meaningless?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikablu

3) One dies by accident or EP6 duel actually happens

Why would the duel happen if they're separate people?

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Originally Posted by pikablu

4) The one who survives takes up the ideas and dreams of the other and thus is living one life but for 2 people

So basically you're saying ShKanon didn't exist at first but came into life after Kanon's death? I'm not sure I get your point.

I recommend though to read Our Confession whom Wanderer kindly translated as well as Ryukishi's interview and to wait for the translation of Ep 8 manga version. They can answer to many of the things you pointed out in a better way than me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

Well, maybe Battler fulfils those requirements, so maybe if he'd stepped into the shed to look for Shannon's corpse he'd ruin everything, but I really think he's just duped before investigating.

So, he's.... a lazy/dumbass detective?

I think he's more a detective who doesn't know he's the detective and has cool powers and is in a story so when he's told that no, he can't check a corpse by an adult or not to touch stuffs because the police might want to have the crime scene preserved he does as asked like any normal people hopefully would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

How much better would everything be if Ryukishi had bothered to be less vague about certain things? It's okay not to reveal Prime, but I think there are some issues which he should have adressed more clearly. Because it's just this unwilingness to discuss certain things which gives rise to all sorts of ridiculous "conspiracy theories" like KnownNoMore.

My guess is people are totally hitting that uncertainty because they are dissatisfied with the actual answer.

Definitely. There's to say I think he's giving some answers in EP 8 but, since I can't read it, just watch pictures, I don't know the extent of what he's revealing.

@Drifloon
Yes I realise that I have posted something similar to this before but I didn’t explain myself as clearly as I would have wanted to.

EP2 – 1st Twilight, tbh I have forgotten what it was like in the VN but in the manga and anime Rosa tells Shannon and Genji to go AFTER she has seen the bodies. Check it out:

See for yourself…when Battler comes in, Shannon and Kanon are right in front of him. Also happens in the anime version check out EP8 – II-III. If the VN shows something different (I can’t remember and I’ve lost my data), then I’ll be fine to budge on this point.

And I think it’s pretty well established that Kinzo is dead (no need to be patronizing man).

EP6 – People Count, Erika’s Finale

That’s not my point at all. And your argument is completely wrong anyway. She says ‘I am the 18th human on Rokkenjima’ – the way she says it does not restrict the number of people who are counted as humans (including the dead). She’s not saying ‘There are no more than 18 people like is usually said’.

My point is that Erika dies in the meta world because it is being acknowledged that she is actually a dead person. The 17 people count does NOT include dead people, Erika’s not the 17th person. Shannon and Kanon are the 16th and 17th people.

EP3 – 1st Twilight, yes fine I agree there is a loop hole now for Shannon to jump down to chapel (or vice versa, judging by the fact that it is on the 1st floor) BUT…

Body Count = People Count, from that thread you’ve shown me it’s very hard to work out what everyone means…(that could just be my own problem tbh)…I don’t understand it, if the red in EP6 is used then it means people = bodies which means Shannon and Kanon have different bodies which means that surely Shannon is not Kanon then? I’m having real trouble understanding what people are saying about this.

EP1 – 1st Twilight, you are right in the anime and manga he does not see it, but I forget what is said in EP1 VN…can someone remind me what actually Battler said (I lost my data) but he did acknowledge Shannon’s body somehow…

And about the personality deaths – we cannot say that personality DEFINITELY = people as EVA Beatrice exists (and Ronove, Virgilia and Beatrice sort of) and if we count personalities = people then we have to include these people too in the people count. It’s actually slightly confusing if personalities are counted because there are so many flying about the place.

@GoldenLand
My use for Knox’s 8th is not to disprove Shannon = Kanon but to eradicate any sort of confusion about EP5. There is a contradiction about the solution in EP5 and nothing about Erika’s position or ShKanon’s positions were discussed relative to each other to allow Erika to see one but not the other. From the way it was put it actually seemed like she was looking at everyone, so looking at Kanon and Shannon at the same time.

Also people use ShKanon to explain Kanon’s disappearance from the games. I’m just saying that there other explanations for how the Kanon can go missing.

The bit about EP8 – this is such a red herring, this red only applies to Bern’s game and not the core question arcs. If this did apply so literally then one could raise an eyebrow at Battler being the culprit.

The bit about EP7 – this only applies to EP7 again, Shannon going BSoD in one moment does not prove ShKanon for everything. Yes Shannon = Kanon in that kakera but that doesn’t mean anything in the wider context.

My Own Theory (The Pikablu Theory hehe):
1) Ok if Kanon and Shannon are fully separate people, why can’t Beatrice participate? It’s to do with love then anyone who loves anyone has a right to enter, Beatrice can enter as a separate entrant.
2) Couldn’t it be that each couple LACKS SOMETHING and thus only one can fulfil their love? Rather than being about if 1 wins then the other 2 lose? There is no mention in an actual contradiction of love between their respective matches. There is definitely evidence of a lack of confidence in both Kanon and Shannon.
3) Maybe they lack not being actual humans, but the FEELING of being human, there are loads of hints that they FEEL not human as in Kanon calling himself furniture, Beato being a witch transcending humans, Shannon not having enough confidence. And by winning the duel against the other, one can gain enough confidence and get to be with their loved one. So e.g. if Shannon won against Kanon, by defeating her brother (her closest companion), she’s effectively fighting the world to be with George, it’s about confidence.
4) My evidence for Kanon and Shannon taking up each other’s dreams? Well the fact that they are extremely close and know what the other’s dreams are. The EP6 duel illustrates this too that Kanon disappears because he dies (yes it could be a personality death but equally as possible is that it is metaphorically transferring ideas between 2 different people)…please tell me if I haven’t explained that well because it’s important for my argument.
5) And actually their dreams are not contradicting but extremely similar; don’t both just want to be with their love? I don’t think that it’s specified WHERE they would have to be.

@Captain Bluebeard
Yeah there was a red on the Battler detective thing which Wanderer thankfully provided. And shouldn’t it generally be accepted Battler is the detective? Why else would Beatrice repeatedly confirm that ‘obviously Battler is not the culprit’. We don’t such flashy confirmations about being the detective from other detectives in other fiction stories (albeit yes detectives in other stories are never dealing with magic in such a way). But isn’t Battler generally acknowledged to be the detective, just like Poirot is at the beginning of an AC story? We don’t need an Erika level of flashiness to prove it, it’s just accepted that it is that way. And didn’t Will say that if he stepped in he would ruin everything, also the fact that HE NEVERS SEES ILLUSIONS BEFORE MIDNIGHT (when bomb goes off). Everything points to him being the detective. We see the factual story through his eyes and this is accepted.

About the EP6 bit, you’re not getting what I’m saying. ERIKA IS NOT THE 17TH PERSON, you do not include dead people in this total otherwise Kinzo would be counted for (and so would a lot of other people). The whole result of that scene/duel is that ERIKA DIES. It has been acknowledged that in reality she is dead, she calls herself the 18th human anyway IN RED. 18th Human does not mean 17th person.

Beatrice can certainly ‘cheat’ with the red, but again red is the undeniable truth ONLY in its time and place, she plays around with words and timings/places to ‘cheat’, the red itself is unbreakable in its context.

Furniture – could this not simply be a reference to social standing rather than jumping the gun to humans/half-humans. That servant house where Kanon and Shannon were sent to, could have taught them such etiquette for when they around family members that they were serving. It would be wrong to offer opinions, think you’re on the same level as everyone else…there are societies which exist to dehumanise you (this is not so far-fetched an idea)…

And there have been plenty of indications to say that ShKanon is purely metaphorical, the very basis of it extends to Shannon = Kanon at SOME POINT…this doesn’t have to mean that Yasu was there and gave birth to 2 separate personalities.

And no need to be rude…yeah I remember Knox’s existence all the time because isn’t that the basic tool of a detective novel, to go around the rules to make something interesting for the reader? In that case, why can’t I use it to deduce what I need to? Didn’t R make it a necessity for the story to follow Knox’s Decalogue (I’m not just quoting it for the heck of it)…I also am sort of asking you guys questions too (the more knowledgeable uminekos!) to help me with my understanding of what’s going on.

----

Also I now have another problem guys (yes there is more…sorry), if you need to buy off people, and we know money is a powerful incentive. But, surely we know about Genji and in certain other cases like Natsuhi and Jessica…we know money is NOT a motivator for helping out. Genji is no known financial difficulties and has spent his ENTIRE life with Kinzo, one can therefore conclude that he is very loyal to Kinzo whether this extends to the rest of the Ushiromiya family is questionable but we therefore know that certain people cannot simply be ‘bought off’ as accomplices.

So my question is this, if Nanjo was helping Shannon, what was in it for him. Money is a powerful motivator but what is it ever revealed whether Nanjo would be willing to take a bribe; in fact, the opposite was shown. It was shown that he was VERY dedicated just like Genji to Kinzo, so money again I don’t think is an important factor with him…if R says that that is how Nanjo helped Shannon/Kanon I do not want to accept it…

@Drifloon
Yes I realise that I have posted something similar to this before but I didn’t explain myself as clearly as I would have wanted to.

EP2 – 1st Twilight, tbh I have forgotten what it was like in the VN but in the manga and anime Rosa tells Shannon and Genji to go AFTER she has seen the bodies. Check it out:

See for yourself…when Battler comes in, Shannon and Kanon are right in front of him. Also happens in the anime version check out EP8 – II-III. If the VN shows something different (I can’t remember and I’ve lost my data), then I’ll be fine to budge on this point.

And I think it’s pretty well established that Kinzo is dead (no need to be patronizing man).

That page didn't load. Going through what I have:

One page shows: Rosa screaming, Shannon and Kanon looking shocked, Rosa collapsing, and some people leaving.

The next page shows Battler, George, and Jessica arriving, and the corpses.

The page after that shows Genji, Kanon, and the cousins.
Advancing, I don't see Shannon until after Kanon leaves.

VN:
Rosa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda are in the chapel.
Rosa sends Genji and Shannon to ask Kinzo for instructions.
She then sends Gohda and Kanon to summon Nanjo.
...
The cousins wake up and go to the mansion.
They see Gohda enter the servants' room and Kanon talk to Nanjo.

Quote:

; その慌しい様子に、戦人たちはやはり何か良くないことが起こっていることを察する。\
`By looking at how hurried they were, Battler and the rest realized that yes, something bad really had happened.`\

; 使用人室の開け放たれた扉からは、郷田の様子が見えた。\
`They saw Gohda through the door to the servant room, which had been flung open.`\

; …受話器を持ちながら、フックをがしゃがしゃと乱暴にいじっている。@
`...He was holding the receiver and violently pressing the hook.`@
br
; その様子から、病院にしろ警察にしろ、とにかく只ならぬ緊急事態が起きて電話をしようとしていることを 理解する。\
`From that, they realized that he was trying to call a hospital or the police.`@` In any event, he was trying to call someone because a serious emergency had occurred.`\

They follow Kanon, Gohda, and Nanjo to the chapel.

Quote:

`They didn't know what, but something was happening.`@
`Battler and the rest chased after Kanon and Nanjo...`\

; あぁ……、そして俺たちは理解する。@
; 嘉音くんは南條先生を呼びはしたが、俺たちは呼ばなかった。@
; …だから付いていってはいけなかったんだ。@
`Aaah......, then we realized.`@
`Kanon-kun had called Doctor Nanjo, but he hadn't called us.`@
`...So we shouldn't have gone with them.`@

Jessica runs out to see out Beatrice. Kanon and Gohda go after her.

Quote:

;「決まっているぜ、あいつだッ！！@ 昨日来たとかいう魔女さまに決まってるッ！！！@ 襟首、捻り上げ てやるぜッ！！@ 畜生畜生畜生ォオオオ！！」\
;＜朱志香
`"It's obvious, it's her!!`@` It has to be that witch or whatever who came yesterday!!!`@` I'll grab her by the collar!!`@` Damn it damn it damn iiiiiiiiiiiit!!"`\

Jessica finds the note from Beatrice in the honored guest's room, and goes berserk.

Gohda leaves Kanon with Jessica.

Quote:

; 郷田も理解する。@
`Gohda also understood.`@
; ……そして、朱志香と嘉音の二人が、ささやかな交流を持っていることも知っていた。@
; だから、全てを理解し、任せる。\
`......And he also knew of the vague relationship that Jessica and Kanon shared.`@
`So he understood everything, and left it to Kanon.`\

Beatrice kills Jessica and Kanon, then erases Kanon's body.

---

Shannon and Genji meet with Kinzo.

Battler doesn't see Shannon on the 5th until they meet in the dining room.

-----------------

And the anime also clearly has Shannon leave the chapel before the cousins arrive.

In other words, Battler does not see Shannon and Kanon at the same time in Episode 2 at the chapel.

EP2 – 1st Twilight, tbh I have forgotten what it was like in the VN but in the manga and anime Rosa tells Shannon and Genji to go AFTER she has seen the bodies. Check it out:

See for yourself…when Battler comes in, Shannon and Kanon are right in front of him. Also happens in the anime version check out EP8 – II-III. If the VN shows something different (I can’t remember and I’ve lost my data), then I’ll be fine to budge on this point.

First off, your link doesn't work. Second of all, in the VN, Battler never sees Shannon and Kanon at the same time in the first four episodes. NEVER. Any contradiction in the anime is a blatant contradiction of the original script.

Quote:

EP6 – People Count, Erika’s Finale

That’s not my point at all. And your argument is completely wrong anyway. She says ‘I am the 18th human on Rokkenjima’ – the way she says it does not restrict the number of people who are counted as humans (including the dead). She’s not saying ‘There are no more than 18 people like is usually said’.

My point is that Erika dies in the meta world because it is being acknowledged that she is actually a dead person. The 17 people count does NOT include dead people, Erika’s not the 17th person. Shannon and Kanon are the 16th and 17th people.

The thing is that "I am the 18th human of Rokkenjima" is a meta-title Erika uses to define herself. She's not merely giving a count of the humans that exist, she is defining her role in the narrative. She is conceptually denied by shooting down the notion that there can ever be more than 17 people on Rokkenjima.

19 - Kinzo equals 17.

Battler and Beatrice say in Red that Everyone Else + Erika = 17.

Therefore, Everyone else - Erika = 16.

If there are only 16 people, then one of the 17 members of the cast must be a false identity. Work it out, homeslice.

Quote:

EP1 – 1st Twilight, you are right in the anime and manga he does not see it, but I forget what is said in EP1 VN…can someone remind me what actually Battler said (I lost my data) but he did acknowledge Shannon’s body somehow…

And about the personality deaths – we cannot say that personality DEFINITELY = people as EVA Beatrice exists (and Ronove, Virgilia and Beatrice sort of) and if we count personalities = people then we have to include these people too in the people count. It’s actually slightly confusing if personalities are counted because there are so many flying about the place.

Battler never sees Shannon's corpse in EP1. He just trusts Hideyoshi's and Kanon's testimony.

Evatrice and the others do not count as personalities because they are magical beings that do not actually exist. Eva never 'becomes' Evatrice and pretends to be her. Shannon and Kanon are unique in this regard.

Quote:

@GoldenLand
My use for Knox’s 8th is not to disprove Shannon = Kanon but to eradicate any sort of confusion about EP5. There is a contradiction about the solution in EP5 and nothing about Erika’s position or ShKanon’s positions were discussed relative to each other to allow Erika to see one but not the other. From the way it was put it actually seemed like she was looking at everyone, so looking at Kanon and Shannon at the same time.

Or she assumes Kanon is behind another character since she hears his voice.

Quote:

Also people use ShKanon to explain Kanon’s disappearance from the games. I’m just saying that there other explanations for how the Kanon can go missing.

The bit about EP8 – this is such a red herring, this red only applies to Bern’s game and not the core question arcs. If this did apply so literally then one could raise an eyebrow at Battler being the culprit.

The difference here is that the statement about Kanon does apply outside of Bern's game; Kanon NEVER leaves a corpse if Battler has seen Shannon's corpse.

At no point, in any episode, does the Detective ever see Shannon's AND Kanon's dead bodies. When one is confirmed to be dead, the other just vanishes into thin air.

And Kanon himself has never left a corpse, ever. Not even in Episode 1, since Battler never observes him die.

His body is unseen in EP1, EP2, EP3, EP4, EP6...

[QUOTE]The bit about EP7 – this only applies to EP7 again, Shannon going BSoD in one moment does not prove ShKanon for everything. Yes Shannon = Kanon in that kakera but that doesn’t mean anything in the wider context.[QUOTE]

Why would Shannon and Kanon be the same person in the kakera meant to show us the Truth of everything, the "inner guts" of Beatrice....but not apply to every other episode? Bernkastel has no interest in any further deceptions, pretty metaphors, secrets, allegories, or mysteries, so why would she pull the wool over Will's eyes just because?

And what would be the point of Lion's existence?

Your statement makes the entirety of EP7 an absolute and complete waste of time that tells us absolutely nothing.

Quote:

My Own Theory (The Pikablu Theory hehe):
1) Ok if Kanon and Shannon are fully separate people, why can’t Beatrice participate? It’s to do with love then anyone who loves anyone has a right to enter, Beatrice can enter as a separate entrant.
2) Couldn’t it be that each couple LACKS SOMETHING and thus only one can fulfil their love? Rather than being about if 1 wins then the other 2 lose? There is no mention in an actual contradiction of love between their respective matches. There is definitely evidence of a lack of confidence in both Kanon and Shannon.
3) Maybe they lack not being actual humans, but the FEELING of being human, there are loads of hints that they FEEL not human as in Kanon calling himself furniture, Beato being a witch transcending humans, Shannon not having enough confidence. And by winning the duel against the other, one can gain enough confidence and get to be with their loved one. So e.g. if Shannon won against Kanon, by defeating her brother (her closest companion), she’s effectively fighting the world to be with George, it’s about confidence.
4) My evidence for Kanon and Shannon taking up each other’s dreams? Well the fact that they are extremely close and know what the other’s dreams are. The EP6 duel illustrates this too that Kanon disappears because he dies (yes it could be a personality death but equally as possible is that it is metaphorically transferring ideas between 2 different people)…please tell me if I haven’t explained that well because it’s important for my argument.
5) And actually their dreams are not contradicting but extremely similar; don’t both just want to be with their love? I don’t think that it’s specified WHERE they would have to be.

1) but Beatrice is Shannon. This is undeniable. If so, then Kanon is the odd man out. Why does Kanon lose his love if Shannon gets hers and vice versa?
2) Why can't both of them gain confidence? Why does Kanon need to make Shannon and Beatrice both lose so he can win? Why is he described as only having PART of a soul?
3) ...But Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice HAVE confidence! Kanon had a lot of development in EP6. As Jessica herself observes, nothing is really getting in the way here. Nothing like confidence, or parents, or social stigma. Your confidence theory is shot down by the actual text.
4) So...in EP7 when Shannon makes Kanon up before he shows up at the mansion? That meant...?
5) Zepar and Furfur claim that Shannon, Beatrice, and Kanon do not have the RIGHT to love. Their soul is a single soul divided between three loves, and one soul should only love one person. If Kanon is not Shannon and Beatrice, why does he have to share a soul with them?

Quote:

Yeah there was a red on the Battler detective thing which Wanderer thankfully provided. And shouldn’t it generally be accepted Battler is the detective? Why else would Beatrice repeatedly confirm that ‘obviously Battler is not the culprit’. We don’t such flashy confirmations about being the detective from other detectives in other fiction stories (albeit yes detectives in other stories are never dealing with magic in such a way). But isn’t Battler generally acknowledged to be the detective, just like Poirot is at the beginning of an AC story? We don’t need an Erika level of flashiness to prove it, it’s just accepted that it is that way. And didn’t Will say that if he stepped in he would ruin everything, also the fact that HE NEVERS SEES ILLUSIONS BEFORE MIDNIGHT (when bomb goes off). Everything points to him being the detective. We see the factual story through his eyes and this is accepted.

It's usually necessary because of the special meta-fictional nature of what's happening. Will is the detective of EP7, and has the same properties. It's not Battler's illusion immunity that's the problem in EP7, but the fact that he already knows everything.

Quote:

About the EP6 bit, you’re not getting what I’m saying. ERIKA IS NOT THE 17TH PERSON, you do not include dead people in this total otherwise Kinzo would be counted for (and so would a lot of other people). The whole result of that scene/duel is that ERIKA DIES. It has been acknowledged that in reality she is dead, she calls herself the 18th human anyway IN RED. 18th Human does not mean 17th person.

Then how come the Red that destroys her is "Even if you join us, there are 17 people"? Remember that before they said this, Battler asked Beatrice if she was sure, because firing this shot would also hurt her, and reveal a part of her heart. This is mentioned a few times before and after the firing of the shot. Whatever that Red means, it's also describing something about Beatrice.

Erika was already dying. They could've just waited to die. But they decided to give her an honorable death that answered her final questions in life. By giving her that Red, Erika learned the beauty of Beatrice's gameboard and passed on peacefully, understanding how Beatrice was able to solve the Logic Error.

Admit it, Pikablu. You're not resisting Shkanon because it doesn't make sense. You're rejecting it because you personally dislike it, and don't want it to be true.

Quote:

Furniture – could this not simply be a reference to social standing rather than jumping the gun to humans/half-humans. That servant house where Kanon and Shannon were sent to, could have taught them such etiquette for when they around family members that they were serving. It would be wrong to offer opinions, think you’re on the same level as everyone else…there are societies which exist to dehumanise you (this is not so far-fetched an idea)…

No other character refers to themselves this way except magical characters, including Genji ONCE in the EP2 narrative where he is a homunculus, and no other time.

Every other character who calls themselves Furniture is a supernatural, imaginary being that does not truly exist. Beatrice herself calls herself Furniture.

Ergo, Shannon and Kanon = Furniture = Imaginary Beings.

Quote:

And there have been plenty of indications to say that ShKanon is purely metaphorical, the very basis of it extends to Shannon = Kanon at SOME POINT…this doesn’t have to mean that Yasu was there and gave birth to 2 separate personalities.

Name one. Name ONE.

Quote:

Also I now have another problem guys (yes there is more…sorry), if you need to buy off people, and we know money is a powerful incentive. But, surely we know about Genji and in certain other cases like Natsuhi and Jessica…we know money is NOT a motivator for helping out. Genji is no known financial difficulties and has spent his ENTIRE life with Kinzo, one can therefore conclude that he is very loyal to Kinzo whether this extends to the rest of the Ushiromiya family is questionable but we therefore know that certain people cannot simply be ‘bought off’ as accomplices.

Genji is absolutely loyal to Yasu as the true heir to Kinzo's will, all the adults have huge financial troubles that they need solved right now, and Jessica is in love with Kanon. What's the problem?

Quote:

So my question is this, if Nanjo was helping Shannon, what was in it for him. Money is a powerful motivator but what is it ever revealed whether Nanjo would be willing to take a bribe; in fact, the opposite was shown. It was shown that he was VERY dedicated just like Genji to Kinzo, so money again I don’t think is an important factor with him…if R says that that is how Nanjo helped Shannon/Kanon I do not want to accept it…

Yes, it HAS been revealed. Nanjo was bribed to take care of Bice without informing anyone, having been paid a gold ingot, and Nanjo was bribed to keep quiet about Kinzo's demise. Nanjo is the one character we know for a fact can be bribed for things he doesn't ethically agree with.