Re: [Meditation Society of America] Satguru, defend thyself!

I may like to respond to the mail written to the sada gure. Well, could we in the first place have an introduction of this new entrant who has very

Message 1 of 20
, Dec 19, 2005

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I may like to respond to the mail written to the sada gure. Well, could we in the first place have an introduction of this new entrant who has very confidently passed the verdict that all of us are fools on tha same bus. I may like to point out that it is not the flowery language of the scriptures that is important to be pointed out but the actual point in iitself tha the gentleman begs to differ on. The mail is entirely generic in nature and you may like to elucidate the aspects and guidence you are looking for, and if you dont need any then really dont see the point of you being a visitor here. Its obvious that you surely are in serch of something that you dont have and the first lesson that you may like to pick up is humility sir. You are free to interact with me hereafter and i shall reply to your misgivings. All are not fools for sure. Wisdom does not lie in your words or mine but much beyond the realms of words spoken... take care..
Sandeep

jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:

Dear Swami Datta.

If you are truly who you say you are, you shouldbe able to deal with the likes of me, directly.

The reason I'm made upset is because you arespreading erroneous ideas about self-realization,based on your delusion and your knowledge of theshastras. Hindu tradition or not, the idea ofthe satguru as you propose it is superstitiousnonsense. You're another fool on the bus, Datta,just like any of the rest of us. Another rabbit, to use your metaphor.

There's nothing special about you, *except* foryour holding a fixed delusion about the nature ofyour identity.

But if I'm wrong about you, you should take thisopportunity to tell us why, directly. Don't hidebehind the flowery prose and shower of
scripturaljustification for yourself. Just tell us, man toman, or God to man, why we should believe that *you*are the satguru.

Sincerely,

--jody.

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prakki surya

Divine Message of His Holiness Shri Datta Swami Any human being cannot do any work just by will even after long concentration. The same work happens as soon

Message 2 of 20
, Dec 19, 2005

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Divine Message of His Holiness Shri Datta Swami

Any human being cannot do any work just by will even after long concentration.The same work happens as soon as the Lord wishes just once.This whole Universe is created just by His one wish.The faith is a long time concentrated will power.The will is common in both the Lord and human being.The will is a characteristic of awareness.This awareness is common item in both the Lord and the human being.Therefore, will is also a common item in both the Lord and soul (human being).All these worlds are created just by one wish of the Lord.But even if the soul wishes one crore times in a highly concentrated way called Faith, even an atom is not created.When both are forms of awareness, why this vast difference comes?Just the one wish of the Lord appears as the solid Universe to all the souls!Even the highly concentrated will of a soul is not
appearing as materialized form to other souls.Such will is not even appearing as imagination to other souls.It is appearing as imagination only to that particular soul, which imagined so.In one house the bulb is not glowing in-spite of putting on the switch several times.But in another house, the bulb is glowing when just once its switch is put on.In both the houses, same switches, same wires and same bulbs exist.But, the difference is that in the first house, there is no current.In the second house, there is current.Similarly in the awareness of soul, God (Parabrahman) does not exist.In the awareness of the Lord, God exists.This awareness is called as Brahman, because awareness, which is the first creation of God, is greatest among all the items of creation.Brahman means anything, which is greatest among a category of items.The word Parabrahman means God or Creator, who is beyond Brahman.Due to the power of God only, creation takes place.Mere awareness has no such power to create this Universe.This awareness is the will or imagination of God.This Universe appears always as imagination only to God.This Universe itself is an ocean of awareness.The soul is a drop in it.The power of the ocean is far greater than the power of the drop.Due to this only, this universe appears as materialized solid to the soul.This whole universe is again a drop only in the awareness created by God in the beginning, which is called as Mula Prakruti or Maha Maya.God does not exist in the Universe.Therefore, this Universe becomes a scene to the spectator-God.Scene must be different from the spectator.The Mula Prakruti into which God entered and pervaded is called as Lord (Eswara).

This Lord is spectator and Universe is scene.Thus, both the Scene and the outer cover of Brahman are forms of awareness only.The soul is also a form of awareness.Soul  Universe Spectator become greater and greater as we pass on.God is neither in the Universe nor is in the soul.Therefore, both
these have no power of creation.Spectatorship is the characteristic of the awareness.Therefore, even the soul is a spectator.But the soul can see its own imaginary world as imagination and the Universe as reality.It cannot see this Universe as imagination.For the Lord only, this Universe including all the souls is an imagination.

The Lord knows and sees everything in the Universe.But the soul sees and knows only a little in the Universe.Thus the spectatorship also differs in both the cases.The soul can see and knows everything of its own imaginary world only.Though, the Universe is entirely awareness, a part of it becomes spectator in the form of souls and another part is inert which does not see or know anything.This difference took place only by the will of the Lord.Therefore, a soul cannot throw away this difference created by the Lord and cannot treat both
as one and the same awareness.The soul cannot say that the whole Universe has spectatorship.Some claim that they have realized the entire Universe as one awareness, which is totally against their own experience.Such experience of difference is the will of the Lord and so they behave differently for all practical purposes. No scholar talks with a stone!A stone cannot preach you and remove your ignorance for all practical purposes.Even the Lord views both the soul and inert matter differently as per their status, but He views both as His imagination.But the soul cannot see both as his imagination and the soul also views both differently like the Lord.If you refer to
the external form of the Lord only, which is awareness, both the external form of Lord and the entire soul are one and the same.The difference is that the Lord is God embraced by the awareness, where as the soul is mere awareness.The Lord is the wire with current, where as the soul is the wire without current.

Therefore, the soul cannot achieve anything in this world just by
faith only.Its external actions may achieve something in this world but not its mere internal will.Even this external action becomes sometimes invalid, because the field of its action is the world, which is without God.Some say that everything is possible by self-confidence or faith.But this statement is laudable only till it is not analysed!The wire without current cannot create even a ray of light in the bulb.People believe that self-faith can achieve anything and therefore, they conclude that the self itself is the Lord.Anything is possible only to the Lord.If a soul wishes to make everything possible, the only way is
to catch the Lord and please Him.Self-Faith means the faith that is concentrated on the Lord, who came down as a self or as a human being.For the sake of the convenience of the soul to achieve such goal, the Lord comes down as a soul.The faith in such soul, to believe it as the Lord is called as Self-Faith.All the power of God is present in such human incarnation, because God and His power are beyond the spatial dimensions.

I may like to respond to the mail written to the sada gure. Well, could we in the first place have an introduction of this new entrant who has very confidently passed the verdict that all of us are fools on tha same bus. I may like to point out that it is not the flowery language of the scriptures that is important to be pointed out but the actual point in iitself tha the gentleman

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jodyrrr

... My name is Jody, I ve been active on these message boards since 1998, and I write a blog called guruphiliac.org. ... My point to being here is to express

>
> I may like to respond to the mail written to the sada gure. Well,
> could we in the first place have an introduction of this new
> entrant who has very confidently passed the verdict that all
> of us are fools on tha same bus.

My name is Jody, I've been active on these message
boards since 1998, and I write a blog called guruphiliac.org.

> I may like to point out that it is not the flowery language of
> the scriptures that is important to be pointed out but the actual
> point in iitself tha the gentleman begs to differ on. The mail is
> entirely generic in nature and you may like to elucidate the
> aspects and guidence you are looking for, and if you dont need
> any then really dont see the point of you being a visitor here.

My point to being here is to express this truth: nobody is
more divine than anyone else.

> Its obvious that you surely are in serch of something that you
> dont have and the first lesson that you may like to pick up is
> humility sir.

I am in search of one thing, to identify and eliminate
occluding ideas in spiritual culture. One of these is
the idea that self-realization makes you more divine
than you were before. Not true. We are either always
divine, or never divine, regardless of our status as
realizers.

The person in need of some humility around here is
Datta, who claims to be God moreso than you and I.

> You are free to interact with me hereafter and i shall
> reply to your misgivings. All are not fools for sure.

Some don't like to think of themselves as such, true.
However, as human beings on the planet, we all share
divinity, equally.

The "fools on the bus" line is a lyric from a song
popular in the U.S. in the early 90s. It suggests that
our humanity makes us all equals in a gently mocking
tone. Taking oneself too seriously is a disease of
the mind which Swami Datta is suffering from.

> Wisdom does not lie in your words or mine but much
> beyond the realms of words spoken... take care.. Sandeep

True. However, some words spring from lives with
access to that which is beyond words, and some
spring from the psychotic delusion that they are
an incarnated deity.

--jody.

> jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote: Dear Swami Datta.
>
> If you are truly who you say you are, you should
> be able to deal with the likes of me, directly.
>
> The reason I'm made upset is because you are
> spreading erroneous ideas about self-realization,
> based on your delusion and your knowledge of the
> shastras. Hindu tradition or not, the idea of
> the satguru as you propose it is superstitious
> nonsense. You're another fool on the bus, Datta,
> just like any of the rest of us. Another rabbit,
> to use your metaphor.
>
> There's nothing special about you, *except* for
> your holding a fixed delusion about the nature of
> your identity.
>
> But if I'm wrong about you, you should take this
> opportunity to tell us why, directly. Don't hide
> behind the flowery prose and shower of scriptural
> justification for yourself. Just tell us, man to
> man, or God to man, why we should believe that *you*
> are the satguru.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --jody.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "meditationsocietyofamerica" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

> All the power of God is present in such human incarnation,
> because God and His power are beyond the spatial dimensions.

Bring it on, you psychotically grandiose nincompoop.
If you are God, smite me where I stand, because I am
utterly opposed to the deluded nonsense you are spewing
like vomit around here.

prakki surya

Divine Message of His Holiness Shri Datta Swami Q) Was the Lord not satisfied with Himself that He started this dolls-play of creation with animals, plants and

Message 5 of 20
, Dec 19, 2005

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Divine Message of His Holiness Shri Datta Swami

Q) Was the Lord not satisfied with Himself that He started this dolls-play of creation with animals, plants and humans? For the Lord it is a game to engage souls in deeds and then clear their sins (or good deeds). If He has set the rules of the game and He has predetermined how much sin of each soul to clear in one birth, then does the soul have no independent will and
freedom of choice? Should we just do our duty as told in the Gita and not worry about steering our own lives as we see fit?

Infact the Lord is satisfied by Himself as said in the Brahma Sutra (Lokavattu Leela Kaivalyam). The Lord gets satisfaction when His devotee gets satisfied. The essential aim of this creation for the God is only the sweetness of love. The Lord enjoys the sweetness in the
love of His devotees to Him. The Devotees enjoy the same sweetness of love of God to them. Therefore, the devotees who are satisfied with such sweet love will not put this question. Only the devotees who could not get such love which flows to both sides are subjected to this question. Such devotees love these unreal bonds in this world.

They do not get satisfaction because when such love is analyzed, the inner selfishness comes out. When the essence of such love is realized, this question comes to the mind and the creation looks waste. They have seen only the false love of the world but have not seen the true love of God.
If they enter the spiritual line and experience the true love of the Lord, they will certainly find the necessity of this wonderful creation. Without this creation the existence of such divine love is not possible. Therefore, on realizing the false love in this world one has to turn towards God to experience the real love. When they experience the divine love they will appreciate the Creator, the Creation and the aim of the Creation. Thus the game, which is the aim of the Creation, is not just for the selfish satisfaction of the Lord. In fact the divine love is more enjoyed by the soul than the Lord. The reason is that the Lord Himself is an infinite ocean of bliss and does not require any more enjoyment.

It is actually the soul, which is an infinite ocean of worry and misery enjoys the divine love, which contains bliss. Sri Rama Krishna Paramahamsa told that He likes to be the ant to enjoy the sugar than to be the sugar itself. The ant, which is not sugar, enjoys more the sugar. The sugar being itself the sugar cannot enjoy the sweetness. In fact even the Lord imposes ignorance on Him and becomes an ordinary soul to enjoy really this sweetness of divine love. Hanuman was the incarnation of the Lord Shiva. He cannot enjoy the divine love of the Lord to a devotee. Therefore, He imposed ignorance on Himself and became a devotee. Hanuman enjoyed the divine love of the Lord Rama more than Rama Himself. Infact Rama also could enjoy the divine love by imposing self-ignorance and by acting as an ordinary human being. Therefore, this game is more meaningful for the sake of the souls than the Lord
Himself. The Lord transfers the evil results of such real devotees to Himself and enjoys actually the misery. By this the devotee enjoys permanent happiness. Therefore, this game of the world is finally resulting in the permanent happiness of devotees (souls) only and not for the enjoyment of the Lord.

The rules of the game are well defined. Violation is not possible as long as you are in the field of Pravrutti. Even in Pravrutti if you accept and surrender to Lord unlike the atheist, some concession is given as the rearrangement of the results i.e., postponing and pre-poning. Since, the interest is increased and
decreased respectively, the concession is not beyond the rules of justice. When the person to whom you have to pay the loan comes to you, he may postpone the payment on your request but will not cancel the interest. But in the Nivrutti the loan and the interest is cancelled. But the Lord pays all that for your sake. The main purpose of the human incarnation is only this. Through human body, He suffers as you suffer. He will not avoid suffering using His super power because it will be again cheating the justice.

Thus, the rules of the game, which are called, as the administration of justice is never violated either in
Pravrutti or Nivrutti. But you have the full freedom in the game to win or to be defeated. The rules will not affect your chances of either success or defeat. You have to play the game following rules. Sometimes the rules may help you to succeed. When the soul with its subtle body returns to the earth with a gross body as a baby, the subtle body contains very little remains of the original qualities. In the hell the intensity of these qualities is very much reduced. The remains of these qualities are called as Karma Sesha (Remains of deeds). Actually it is Samskara Sesha (Remains of qualities). People misunderstand at this point and think that the subtle body is associated with the remains of the deeds. The deed is inert and cannot be present in the life energy (Subtle body). Only a quality, which is a wave of the life energy, can remain in the subtle body. When a thief was beaten in the police station and is left, he comes out with reduced intensity in his quality of steeling. The
deed of steeling does not remain with the thief. It is this remainder of quality that generates its corresponding deed of steeling. The remaining quality of steeling grows in the encouraging atmosphere and generates the deed of steeling. Now you are caught and again punished. For the second punishment, which is the cause? The root cause is only the remaining quality of steeling. Thus, you are said that you are undergoing the result of the past deed. The word "Past deed" means the past remaining quality only. If that past remaining quality is destroyed, there is no second punishment. How to destroy the quality? The quality is made of life energy and is constituted by wrong knowledge. Therefore, only the right divine knowledge can destroy the quality. If the qualities are destroyed by the divine knowledge the deeds are destroyed. This is said in Gita, "Jnanagnih Sarva Karmani ..", which means that divine knowledge can destroy all the deeds. What is this divine knowledge? It is the
knowledge of the Lord, your self and path to attain Him and please Him. If He is pleased, He will give you the divine knowledge and all the deeds are burnt. If you are unable to use the knowledge fully and if some deeds are still left over due to your improper assimilation of knowledge, the Lord will burn those deeds also by suffering with those results. The Lord clearly stated in Gita that the divine knowledge alone could relieve you from all the sins. Once you are determined due to the divine knowledge you will practice it without any doubt. The result of that is the full grace of the Lord.

2) In Nivrutti (path of liberation) you attain the Lord who has come in the human form for your sake to give the bliss. Bliss is only the characteristic of Lord as said in Veda (Anando Brahma ). Veda also says that the Lord alone can give bliss to the soul (Eshahyeva Anandayati ). Bliss is not characteristic of the soul. Your property is only the golden chain and not the diamond necklace. You should not think that peace is bliss. By your effort you can attain only peace but not the bliss. You can get the bliss only by nearing yourself to Sadguru who is the human incarnation. You can get the cool breeze when you are near the sea on the shore. If you are in the house, you have avoided the hot sun. By attaining the soul you have come to zero from minus, but that is not plus. Zero is within yourself and bliss is from external agency. When
you have attained what you have, it is avoiding loss, which can give only peace but not the bliss.

Thus, the divine knowledge of Sadguru gives you atleast peace, which is the earth, if not the bliss, which is the sky. He will give you the knowledge of Atman to give peace. This is essential requirement for anyone in this world. A few blessed people can also get the bliss if they realise that the Sadguru is the Lord Himself. Therefore, you must utilise the full freedom given to you in this human birth and you must destroy all your
sins permanently through Nivrutti only. You should be very active to use this unlimited freedom within the limited span of lifetime. When you leave this gross body and go to upper worlds you have no freedom at all and those upper worlds hence are called as " Bhoga Loka" which mean that they are the worlds in which the results are to be enjoyed without any freedom. This earth is called as "Karma Loka" which means the world in which you are given full freedom to do anything. You are given the opportunity to receive the divine knowledge here and if you practice it by determination, your entire fate is changed here and there also.

The sages did long penance and sat in the process of self-realization for several ages. They obtained peace of the self but not bliss of the Brahman. Then they realized and approached Lord Krishna as Gopikas for the bliss, which they got in Brindavanam in the vicinity of the Lord (Sayujyam). You can smile or laugh with bliss only by attaining the Lord in human form. You can get atleast a shadow of the bliss by remembering the Lord. But without any external agency you cannot get happiness or bliss. If you are peaceful and silent, no body will ask you the reason but if you are laughing and dancing in bliss stating that there is no external reason for it, it is unnatural and people will admit you in the mental hospital.

Another gratuitous expression of inflated nonsense and
another cowardly act and failure to fill the shoes of
those who have been called satgurus.

prakki surya

Divine Message of His Holiness Shri Datta Swami For a soul, this world is real and is called as Maya or Vikshepa. The world is the imagination of the Lord but

Message 7 of 20
, Dec 20, 2005

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Divine Message of His Holiness Shri Datta Swami

For a soul, this world is real and is called as Maya or Vikshepa. The world is the imagination of the Lord but it is real for all the souls.The world is not the imagination of the soul.The imagination of the soul is dream, which is called as Avidya or Avaranam. The Vikshepa and avaranam are made of ignorance.But the former ignorance is apparent only and the Lord has full awareness during the ignorance.It is called as Saatvika Maya which means the ignorance illuminated with knowledge. It is just like a daydream of a dreamer who is in fully awakened state.The Avaranam has no knowledge and is deep ignorance only.It is like a night dream.The Lord is the daydreamer and soul is night dreamer.The Lord controls the dream and soul is controlled by dream.The soul can destroy its avidya but can never destroy the Maya.Avidya is the imagination or feeling of the soul and can disappear by the knowledge. But Maya is the materialised world for
the soul and can never disappear. The soul is pure awareness and is called as atman or the causal body. The gross body is made of five elements. Both these bodies are part of Maya and can never be destroyed by the soul.The pure awareness is eternal.The five elements of the gross body are also eternal.The subtle body, which is made of qualities or feelings or imaginations of the soul, can be destroyed by the soul through knowledge.The subtle body is made of ignorance of the soul and can be destroyed by the scholar.

After death this subtle body only goes to the other worlds. For a liberated soul, since the subtle body is destroyed, he does not go to the other worlds. The causal body and the gross body merge in the cosmos here it self as said by Veda (Ihaiva Pranah .).In the case of human incarnation also, same thing happens but the fourth item, the Lord, is left over. The advaita Philosophers should note this difference between Maya and Avidya. Sankara clearly told that the Avaranam disappears by knowledge but not Vikshepa.

The highest stage is not to aspire anything from the Lord. The Lord does everything according to His judgement and your deeds.The desire cannot bring any reaction in the Lord.Some devotees cry with very loud voice and do several actions for help from the Lord.The cry also will not bring any trace of reaction in the Lord.Draupadi cried for help from the Lord. The Lord did not react for the cry.Draupadi tore her sari to apply bandage to the finger of the Lord when it was cut.It was this deed that made the Lord to help her. The Lord would have helped her even without her cry.The Lord was watching the situation and was
ready for the correct moment to act.The merit point in the cry of Draupadi was that she believed Lord Krishna as omnipresent and did not confine the Lord to His limited body.Therefore, she cried in the court itself even though the Lord was in far place. Devotion without any aspiration is the best.The next middle level devotion is to believe the Lord as omnipresent and pray at any place.The lower level of devotion is to try to inform the human incarnation personally.This is an insult to the Lord because you do not believe the Lord in human form as omnipresent atleast.

If you think that the Lord is not omnipresent how can He help you as omnipotent?Above all this, the main point is whether the devotee requests or not, the protection from the Lord comes only based on the selfless service offered by him to the Lord without aspiring any fruit in return.When such service is absent, the Lord cannot do any help merely based on their requests or prayers and crying. Therefore, there is no need of prayer or request or crying to the Lord if the selfless service is absent. There is also no need of prayer or request or crying to the Lord if the selfless service is present. Therefore, a
devotee should always concentrate on the selfless service to the Lord without aspiring any fruit in return and the prayer should be only in the praise of the Lord and not for asking any boon or protection because even if you ask there is no trace of any use.