polarbuddha101 wrote:1) I'm not referring to that doctrine. Go ahead and take out the word moment, it makes no difference. Call it the experienced present if you want.
2) It is recollection of the past and remembering to stay aware of the experienced present.

How do you know when the past ends, the present begins, and the future starts?

polarbuddha101 wrote:3) Just because sati means memory/remembrance/recollection doesn't mean that it isn't related to the rest of the path. In practice it has a very important and complex function...

above you said it was all very simple. So, which is it?

I experience the present, remember the past, and anticipate the future. This is how I know without reference to some well defined exact slice of time called the present moment. You're just picking bones here. (And an important thing to do is to remember to experience the present, i.e. to keep what's going right now clearly in mind)

A simple translation for a complex practice, it's both simple and complex depending on the way you're looking at the issue.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

I'm not saying remembrance is the only definition or translation, just saying it's a decent one.

Actually, it is not, given that "remembrance" carries a connotation that really does not get at the immediacy of the experience of mindfulness of breathing. "Oh, yes, I have a remembrance of having a nice long breath just the other day."

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

I'm not saying remembrance is the only definition or translation, just saying it's a decent one.

Actually, it is not, given that "remembrance" carries a connotation that really does not get at the immediacy of the experience of mindfulness of breathing. "Oh, yes, I have a remembrance of having a nice long breath just the other day."

It certainly has to be qualified with further statements. Anyway, I concede your point.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

So there's no real difference in meaning of sati between the context of Satipatthana and the context or recollections (e.g. of Tathagata) - it's just that sati may have take up various object-supports (ārammaṇa). The unified meaning of sati across the contexts is illustrated in Mahaniddesa:

tiltbillings wrote:Actually, it is not, given that "remembrance" carries a connotation that really does not get at the immediacy of the experience of mindfulness of breathing. "Oh, yes, I have a remembrance of having a nice long breath just the other day."

From a practical perspective, I find that remembering to be mindful is the biggest challenge. Does that relate to the definition of sati?

Mindfulness and Clear Comprehension
13. Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Mindful should you dwell, bhikkhus, clearly comprehending; thus I exhort you.

14. "And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu mindful? When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; and when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then is he said to be mindful.

15. "And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu have clear comprehension? When he remains fully aware of his coming and going, his looking forward and his looking away, his bending and stretching, his wearing of his robe and carrying of his bowl, his eating and drinking, masticating and savoring, his defecating and urinating, his walking, standing, sitting, lying down, going to sleep or keeping awake, his speaking or being silent, then is he said to have clear comprehension.

porpoise wrote:From a practical perspective, I find that remembering to be mindful is the biggest challenge. Does that relate to the definition of sati?

If you ask me, I would say that mindfulness requires a sphere to be mindful of, in other words, "sampajanna" requires a "gocara". To arrive somewhere, it isn't enough to "remember to keep going". Keeping in mind everything at once is problematic, doesn't make much sense and can be exhausting. There need to be some specific criteria of right course.

This doesn't have to be too complicated - distinguishing two kinds of resolves (vitakka), as in Dvedhavitakka sutta, checking whether the body is relaxed or 'feverish', as in Bhikkhunupassaya sutta, seeing whether the mind is spacious or constricted, as in Satipatthana sutta, whether there is rapture and bliss, as in Anapanasati sutta, etc.

Dmytro wrote:This doesn't have to be too complicated - distinguishing two kinds of resolves (vitakka), as in Dvedhavitakka sutta, checking whether the body is relaxed or 'feverish', as in Bhikkhunupassaya sutta, seeing whether the mind is spacious or constricted, as in Satipatthana sutta, whether there is rapture and bliss, as in Anapanasati sutta, etc.

I like this kind of approach, paying attention to aspects of mind and body - but remembering to do it consistently still feels like a challenge.

Dmytro wrote:This doesn't have to be too complicated - distinguishing two kinds of resolves (vitakka), as in Dvedhavitakka sutta, checking whether the body is relaxed or 'feverish', as in Bhikkhunupassaya sutta, seeing whether the mind is spacious or constricted, as in Satipatthana sutta, whether there is rapture and bliss, as in Anapanasati sutta, etc.

I like this kind of approach, paying attention to aspects of mind and body - but remembering to do it consistently still feels like a challenge.

Actually, a discussion of this at any real length would move us out of the technical realm of this forum. To "remember" to be mindful, attentive, is simply a matter of the repetition of practice. But simply, it gets easier as one's attention and one's concentration get clearer and stronger by the disciplined practice. It takes work and time. And retreat practice is very helpful in this.

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

I will tend to think "sati" during maditation, but for casual, more idomatic than academic use, would "keeping the ___ in mind" be a fair way to think of sati? the blank would of course be filled with objects such as body, feeling, mind, mental objects, dhamma, etc. Is this a fair way of thinking about this, or am I missing something?

Buckwheat wrote:I will tend to think "sati" during maditation, but for casual, more idomatic than academic use, would "keeping the ___ in mind" be a fair way to think of sati? the blank would of course be filled with objects such as body, feeling, mind, mental objects, dhamma, etc. Is this a fair way of thinking about this, or am I missing something?

Why would you "think" during meditation? Your "idiomatic use" is fair enough.

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

JhanaStream wrote:
In summary, my understanding is sati is to keep in the mind whatever tasks, goals, knowledges, etc, are required for dhamma practise. Even, if one is not formally practising dhamma, such as crossing a busy road, sati is keeping watch on the traffic (rather than keeping watch on in & out breathing or entering the 2nd jhana).

And in order to actually keep it in mind moment-to-moment, you need to remember to do that.

So moment-by-moment awareness does not exclude remembering what you need to be aware of.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

JhanaStream wrote:
In summary, my understanding is sati is to keep in the mind whatever tasks, goals, knowledges, etc, are required for dhamma practise. Even, if one is not formally practising dhamma, such as crossing a busy road, sati is keeping watch on the traffic (rather than keeping watch on in & out breathing or entering the 2nd jhana).

And in order to actually keep it in mind moment-to-moment, you need to remember to do that.

So moment-by-moment awareness does not exclude remembering what you need to be aware of.

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.

above quote shows why the translation of sati as maindfulness is flawed. One need not to possess great memory to be able to pay "non-judgemental attention" to body, feelings etc., it can be teach to any random person. You don't need to remember anything that "were done & said long ago", in order to keep yourself focused on body, feelings etc.

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.

above quote shows why the translation of sati as maindfulness is flawed. One need not to possess great memory to be able to pay "non-judgemental attention" to body, feelings etc., it can be teach to any random person. You don't need to remember anything that "were done & said long ago", in order to keep yourself focused on body, feelings etc.

Rather what this text shows, in light of the various ways sati is used in the suttas, is that the meaning of sati is fairly flexible and is determined by context.

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

rahul3bds wrote: You don't need to remember anything that "were done & said long ago", in order to keep yourself focused on body, feelings etc.

True, and it could be argued that old memories are a distraction to the here-and-now mindfulness which is being described in the rest of the passage. So why do you think this phrase is included? And is it actually referring to an aspect of mindfulness, or to an additional quality?

porpoise wrote:So why do you think this phrase is included? And is it actually referring to an aspect of mindfulness, or to an additional quality?

IMHO, one needs to remember Dhamma principles (such as anatta) when observing the present states.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."