In The Lion’s Den: Undercover At A Pro-Abortion Meeting

On Thursday, Sep. 15, Planned Parenthood of North Texas hosted a presentation by Nancy Northup, president of the Center for Reproductive Rights, to discuss their lawsuit against the state of Texas’s new sonogram law. The event, called “Trust Texas Women,” was held at the First Unitarian Church of Dallas, and I attended, ostensibly as a concerned pro-choicer, although no one asked me my affiliation.

I had to RSVP beforehand, and I did so, using my real first and last name and email address. When I arrived, I was checked in by a smiling woman and ushered toward free refreshments. Another smiling woman, nibbling a cookie, complimented my cowboy boots. Someone else said she liked my tattoo – a large, black state of Texas on my arm. I thanked them both, wondering if they could smell the pro-life on me, but despite being younger and blonder than most of the people there, I seemed to attract no undue attention. Only seconds later, someone else came and ushered us into the sanctuary, where approximately 50 or so other people, mostly women, were already seated.

The church appeared tasteful and expensive, much like the tony Highland Park neighborhood in which it is situated. Signs bore the Unitarian Universalist’s current marketing slogan of choice: “Standing on the Side of Love.”

Pictured: Love, according to the Unitarian Universalist Church.

The senior minister, Rev. Dr. Daniel Kanter, was speaking when I took a seat. He introduced Kelly Hart, the PPNT Director of Public Affairs, who lamented the recent statewide cuts in public “family funding” and the closing of five “health centers.” She briefly mentioned that the Sonogram Bill, which would have become law on Sep. 1 were it not for the injunction won by CRR, “forces a woman to listen to information about her fetus.” She said this as though it were a dreadful thing. She then introduced Nancy Northup.

Nancy Northup

Northup, who has been president and CEO of CRR since 2003, is a graduate of NYU School of Law, teaches at Columbia, and is a life-long Unitarian Universalist. “It’s where I get my convictions for what I do,” she stated proudly, thereby cementing my opinion of Unitarian Universalism.

Ms. Northup began by warning that an “avalanche of anti-choice laws” had fallen on the country in the past year, fifty at the state level, and that CRR intended to block “as many as possible.”

She then launched into the main focus of the meeting, the Texas Sonogram Bill, which she called “an attack on our fundamental rights.” She then went on to name these rights, none of which are found in the Constitution: the right to an abortion, the separation of church and state, and the right to not have to hear speech you don’t want to hear. She called the law “patronizing” and “intrusive,” and said she found it ironic that Gov. Perry would want the government involved in intimate conversations between a woman and her doctor, but veto a bill banning texting while driving because it micromanages the behavior of adults. Everyone laughed at this, and I bit my tongue, not wanting to be the party-pooper who pointed out the difference between a grown adult engaging in behavior that may or may not be dangerous, and a grown adult taking the life of an unborn child.

One of CRR’s major arguments against the law is that it is unconstitutional because it mandates speech on behalf of the doctor, and that many doctors will refuse to follow the government’s instruction and be forced out of providing abortions. She quoted statistics meant to sound dire, which to me sounded heartening: that 87% of US counties don’t have an abortion provider, which number goes up to 92% in Texas.

Have I mentioned lately that I love Texas?

The lawsuit, which CRR filed on behalf of all Texas abortion providers, claims the bill violates First Amendment rights because, according to Judge Sam Sparks in his recent decision, it “compels physicians to advance an ideological agenda with which they may not agree” and suggests retention of patient files for seven years, which Judge Sparks, agreeing with CRR, decided seeks to “permanently brand” women who’ve had abortions. He also said it will also “surely dissuade” doctors from providing abortions, forcing women to less competent physicians.

I did not raise my hand and point out that doctors may not agree with all different sorts of laws, but they still have to follow them. For example, HIPAA (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act) requires doctors to give you a government-mandated form, which you have to sign. And the state of Texas requires all medical records to be kept for seven years, not just the records of women seeking abortions.

Judge Sparks of the 5th Circuit Court issued an injunction against most of the Sonogram Law, but not the twenty-four hour waiting period requirement. For the most part, the judge got a glowing review from Northup. “The courts are so important,” said Northup, in the pro-choice fight. She herself clerked for the 5th Circuit Court and said it was chosen for this suit because of its strong record of pro-civil rights decisions. On that note, she also clarified that the Sonogram Bill lawsuit claims sexual discrimination because only women, not men, are subjected to these patronizing laws.

I did not raise my hand to point out that only women get pregnant and can have abortions, that only women have the power of life and death over the unborn child in their wombs, and that if men could get pregnant I imagine they’d run into these same “patronizing” problems. I just kept scribbling my notes, while around me concerned women clucked and shook their heads.

“Texas is a big fish for the anti-choice movement,” Northup said, making me feel, well, a little bit proud. She then, in a tone devoid of irony, borrowed from Hillary Clinton when she said, “It takes a village to wage a successful lawsuit.” So much for raising a child! She urged attendees to visit trusttexaswomen.com, and to get involved with PP and NARAL, to raise awareness, talk to friends, and not be afraid to stand up for choice.

Northup then commented dramatically on the murder of abortionist George Tiller, saying that during a visit to the Nobel Museum in Stockholm shortly after Tiller’s death, she happened across an exhibit bearing a quote by George Bernard Shaw, which read: “Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.” Across the room, serious expressions and nodding heads. Of course, her gravitas begged the question: Why so sad about George Tiller and not about the approximately one million unborn who die every year? What is that the extreme form of? Aren’t those children being censored, too?

“The numbers are with us,” said Northup as her speech drew to a close, citing Guttmacher Institute statistics claiming that one in three women will have an abortion, and that “the majority of Americans believe that abortion should be legal in most or all cases.”

Also, I'd venture to guess that one or two of those women who've had abortions regret it.

She then basically admitted that the information given to abortion-minded women by doctors as part of the Sonogram Law would be factual and correct. “They can’t be forced to give misleading or inaccurate information,” she said, discussing why doctors would not be giving women information on the abortion-breast cancer link, about which I will let the reader be the judge.

Some of the most interesting statements of the evening came during the Q & A session. As Northup went off-script, the real agenda of the CRR – and, judging by the reactions of those attended, the pro-choice base – became apparent. For example, when mentioning a case in Nepal, she praised public funding for abortion, saying, “A right you can’t access is not a right at all.”

I don’t have to point out the absurdity of this statement. I have a right to drive a car, but that doesn’t mean the taxpayers have to buy me one.

Citing a CRR lawsuit in Columbia, Northup happily reported that in most places where abortion is made legal, it becomes publicly funded as soon as it’s recognized as a right.

She then favorably compared Canada’s abortion laws to ours, saying that while the US is known for its liberal abortion policies, Canada “has no criminal abortion laws,” and abortion there is a lot like it is here: rare and mostly in the first trimester. Ergo, Canada is “a wonderful example that we don’t need criminal laws micromanaging women’s behavior.”

In other words, what Northup advocated from the podium that night was free abortions, with no restriction on gestational age. You’d be hard-put to convince me this reflects the opinions and beliefs of the majority of Americans.

But she wasn’t done.

An audience member asked why the 24 hour waiting period had not been struck down, since it was obvious to her that women with limited access to money, and therefore child care and travel, would be hindered from having abortions because of this. Northup confirmed that CRR did not win an injunction on this issue because the Supreme Court has upheld the waiting period, deciding that it is not an “undue burden.” She said that unfortunately, since the strong seven-two decision of Roe v. Wade, there are now “softer standards” on constitutionality, meaning states can impose their own statutes, such as banning abortion after viability. Northup said CRR may re-file suit in Arizona on the 24 hour waiting period issue, using circumstances such as poverty and domestic violence as examples of undue burden. Meanwhile, she said, “we are stuck with a bad Supreme Court decision.”

Gee. I wonder what that’s like.

Another concerned woman asked how being forced to view a sonogram was not mental and emotional abuse. Northup answered that the case may be decided on the papers, but if it goes to trial, this issue would be brought up. She gave an example of a case in Peru in which a woman was, as characterized by an outraged audience member, “forced to give birth” because she couldn’t afford an abortion. Northup explained that a 1980 Supreme Court decision found that even abortions deemed medically necessary would not be funded, because the government is not responsible for problems not of its own making, and considered poverty not a problem of the government’s making. Laughter from the audience, and Northup said dryly, “I don’t have to impact that for you.”

In the land of CRR, Northup, PP, and the pro-aborts, if you are poor and/or pregnant, it is all the government’s fault.

One of the very few, if not the only, young women in the crowd, a black woman of about college age, brought up the upcoming 40 Days for Life campaign, which she called a “marketing scheme.” She mentioned a couple local colleges – the University of North Texas in Denton and SMU in Dallas – which intended to start a blog and engage in other activities to combat the pro-life presence in the city during that time. The young woman wanted to know what response PPNT was planning, and before stepping aside to let Kelly Hart field the question, Northup got in a final last bit of slander when she urged the audience to keep in mind that those anti-choice protesters often secretly go have abortions at the very clinics at which they protest, and then go back to “yelling” at women.

Aside from a brief enjoiner to check Facebook and Twitter and sign up for email updates about PP’s response to 40 Days for Life, that was the end of the presentation. I couldn’t leave fast enough. A fight-or-flight response kicked in, and I nearly ran the two blocks to my car. It took a couple hours before I stopped bursting into tears periodically.

I was upset because I had seen evil, and evil was mundane. Evil had a very impressive law degree and sensible brown shoes. Evil sat in pews around me with folded arms, feeling very concerned about the plight of poor women, wearing pants it bought at Macy’s. Evil looked like people you see at the grocery store. And, most terrifying of all, evil thought it was doing good.

It would be really helpful if evil looked like this.

I immediately transcribed my notes for those who might find it useful and sent them off, and have spent the week since the meeting reflecting on what I learned, which is basically this: that it is just as bad as we fear it is, but it’s far worse for them. The pro-life movement is making headway, and they know it.

Whatever it is you’re doing, keep doing it, and do more of it.

Meanwhile, Northup says CRR is expecting a decision in the Sonogram Bill lawsuit by the end of the year. I’ll keep you posted.

Brave, revealing, and honest. Amazing article, Kristen. And I agree with you wholeheartedly, “most terrifying of all, evil thought it was doing good.”

Laurie Gail

And to continue the thought, they think pro-lifers are evil for preventing “woman’s choice”, “rights” or “healthcare”. And, Kristen, I don’t know how you sat there. Thank you for your strength.

Anonymous

You know I doubt if most think they are doing good and that pro life people are evil. Most know its murder they just don’t care.
Yeah many are confused and some others are just useful idiots to the cause.

Planned Parenthood luckily doesn’t discriminate at their events or their health centers. Yes, health centers, which provide the only things which prevent an unwanted pregnancy — and therefore the need for abortion — in the first place: medically accurate, comprehensive and
age-appropriate information and affordable birth control. I was at the event, too, and my goodness — your synopsis was twice as long as the actual talk.
How ’bout saving your tears for the hundreds of thousands of babies born due to a lack of knowledge, choice or birth control who are already in our fine foster care system. One that’s being sued for neglect to the kids in its care.
You guys aren’t pro-life, you’re pro-birth. After a kid draws its first breath, it’s out of luck. And I don’t see any of the pro-birth groups using their resources to build shiny, new, state-of-the-art orphanages for these kids.

Pregnancy Center Volunteer

Ellen – you’ve obviously had no involvement with local pregnancy centers across the country. My local pregnancy center (at which I volunteer) provides parenting classes, diapers, clothing, wipes, formula, car seats, cribs, etc., all for FREE to any client in an effort to provide alternatives to abortion. In addition, the center gives referrals for medical care, housing, jobs etc. We support women before, during and after their pregnancy. All of this, at no cost to the client made possible through private donations (unlike PP “health centers”). Take a look. These are all over the country. http://www.pregnancycentereast.com. Also, as to your “orphanages” comments, look at some of your local private adoption agency websites. There are thousands of couples wanting to adopt. Knowledge is power, Ellen. God bless you.

Sunshine

“How ’bout saving your tears for the hundreds of thousands of babies born due to a lack of knowledge, choice or birth control who are already in our fine foster care system. One that’s being sued for neglect to the kids in its care”
I am a foster parent, and find this statement completely out of line! I have adopted two beautiful children from the system, and temporarily parented others! I don’t neglect or abuse the children I adopted, nor the children I have temporarily. SO yes, I am prolife, not just probirth as you put it! I do donate to a pregnancy resource center that encourages life. They either help women find adoptive homes, or they help them by bringing diapers, food, taking them to appointments, and etc. I see potential for each child born that becomes part of the foster system! I have listened to keynote speakers that were raised in the foster system. They grew into productive members of society, and they are stronger than most of us! And are you certain that the children in the foster system come from women talked out of having an abortion?
Most of the foster care cases I have seen don’t include mothers who were talked out of an abortion. But instead the mothers I have met that decided against abortion have become loving mothers, and they aren’t full of regret because they let their child live! My sister-in-law being one mom who did decide against aborting my niece, and is now a good mother of three! I am sure on my niece’s graduation day nobody will say, “She should’ve went through with an abortion!”
How about we tell women they can overcome their circumstances! They can raise a child, women have been doing it from the beginning of time! And if they really can’t, then there are plenty of parents that would love to raise their babies as their own! And if they want to see their child they can opt for an open adoption!

12angrymen

Sunshine it is wonderful that you are such a great foster parent, the world does need more people like you; but unfortunately there are hundreds of thousands of children in the foster system. Many do not receive proper care or will have to move from place to place until they are 18, when they are dumped out by the system.

Spring

The answer would be to improve what we have. I wish I could be a part of the Foster Care System or adopt. I cannot due to my health. The answer to a problem should never be to kill a baby.

John Ransom

EllenR., So you think the best cure for a child in hard times is to kill it? By the way us Christians are very good with our charity including charity for children and adoption of children. Bashing the foster care system as a reason to kill children is a straw man logical fallicy.

scragsma

The information Planned Parenthood gives out may be medically accurate (though there’s been lots of evidence showing otherwise) and age-appropriate, but it’s certainly not comprehensive. As a matter of policy and procedure, their ‘counsel’ to young pregnant women is limited only to that information that will encourage the woman to choose abortion. It’s not a coincidence that PP is the nation’s largest abortion provider!

Nanamiro

Clearly PP is not doing a very good job at helping women prevent pregnancy through their “health centers” considering they still abort 300,000 unborn babies a year!! Wow, they’re really doing a pitiful job (not to mention their failure to further their supposed goal in making abortion “rare” in this country!)

oldmanbob

Who says PP wants gals not to get pregant? A pregant gal is another chance to make money.

Anonymous

We should also not forget other ways that the federal and some state governments funds directly or indirectly the cold blooded of American babies.
Medicad is one way, student loans and grants to future abortion doctors is another.
Federal funding of the UN funds abortions overseas indirectly.
Foreign trade policy and government procurement of some foreign goods and services is another.

Chinjur

That is because Ellen believes that misinformation is what causes pregnancy. We have a real crisis in our country because somewhere people forgot that abstinence is the only sure method of not becoming pregnant. When birth control fails does this mean that we should end the life inside us or deal with the consequences? When I got pregnant with my fifth, I was on birth control and still became pregnant. Guess what? The consequence is that I get to hold baby Chad in my arms and watch him laugh. His brother and three sisters get to make up silly nick names for him and he gets to love and be loved. The other consequence would have been to know that I murdered my child without giving them the chance to know that I loved them. I knew my choices and mine will never haunt me.

Esmeralda

You should never assume that every innocent child that is being born because the mother could not abort him/her, to suddenly not have a home and be thrown into a place of misery! That’s not how it is at all. Goodness. Most women are not incompetent of taking care of a child! Most women who have abortions can actually very much take care of their child, and are very happy to do so because they fall in love with their innocence! By the way, pro life speaks against all violence, especially child abuse. Hence the word “LIFE.” Life is most obviously chosen over death isn’t it??? Unless the people who commit suicide happen to have disagreed, but only for themselves. (May they rest in peace.) I mean seriously? Who says life sucks because of all the children being in foster homes and then turn around and then choose to end their own life???… I don’t think so. Obviously people would rather choose their own life rather than death. Nobody wants to die! Not even you I bet. So why are you implying that it’s okay for children to be killed, and I imagine you’d be against your own death? By the way! It upsets me so much that women are used as bait for pregnancy in the baby killing business, or may I say “abortion business,” if that puts it any lighter… I can’t stand that women are constantly being shielded from the truth to make it more comfortable for them to choose to have an abortion. Many, if not most women regret their abortion and wish they had been told the truth. In the end they feel like they were fooled into having an abortion! Women should be told the cold hard facts about an abortion and everything about the life growing inside, before they make any kind of decision. Would you agree? Wouldn’t truth be chosen over deception?

Jay

Your argument leads us to an extinct human race. Are you stupid or just evil?

Ellen – I read your post as I knitted yet another baby hat that I’m donating to Birthright. I’m not sure what my exact count is at the moment, but I’ve knitted more than forty-five already. I’ve done fifteen blankets. I’m in the process of going through all my stuff and donating the things I don’t need to charity, including some stuff from when I was a little kid. My mom and I both buy baby and little-kid clothes on clearance and donate them on a pretty regular basis. Although it doesn’t work with my schedule at the moment, I spent a year volunteering at a homeless shelter and helping take care of the little kids there. You’re operating with a set of inaccurate talking points and I find myself wondering what you have to say without them.

Tell Me the Truth

If their information is meducally accurate, why don’t they educate women about the abortion-breast cancer link?

JB

Ellen,

Taking care of abandoned children takes a lot of effort and pro-lifers have always done their part to help but there is only so much that one group can do. In order to solve that problem there needs to be help from more people in fighting child poverty. There are a lot of problems with fixing the foster care system and taking care of abandoned children. Fighting against abortion is a full-time task and can take up a lot of time and efforts in itself.

Yes foster care is an issue that needs to be fixed but the solution is not to kill the orphans, no one would argue that these unwanted kids are better off dead than in an orphanage, so why would you make that argument for the unborn? You suggest that the unborn being aborted is better than being stuck in a foster home BUT I assume you believe the lives of those orphans is worth living, you would never want to kill an orphan as an act of mercy, the unborn should be treated with the same respect.

Spring

EllenR. I’ll respond to your entry in order. I’m a retired ER RN. PP is not the only place info and BC are provided. Health depts, college campuses, free clinics also do. I grew up in a rural town of 1200 people. I am 57 years old and EVEN I was taught in public school how a pregnancy begins. You may not be aware of the many ways pro-lifers give. By nature Christians don’t reveal their giving. Much money, time, supplies, prayers are given behind the scenes, so many pro-choicers don’t think anything is being done. BTW, if you want to write a synopsis of the gathering, feel free. If education is a problem, there should never be a woman who has a second abortion unless we have lost our grasp of cause and effect. Also, I have an issue when people can’t possibly afford a box of condoms but pay $3 for their coffee drink and $6-7 for a fast food meal. Self control is free but it may require effort. Heaven forbid.

Zirbert Zirbert

“How ’bout saving your tears for the hundreds of thousands of babies born
due to a lack of knowledge, choice or birth control who are already in
our fine foster care system.”

So, better dead then born into poverty, born to uneducated parents, or with the possibility of winding up in foster care someday. Gotcha. Nice compassion you’ve got there – not all hatey like the prolifers.

You know, I’ve met people who were in foster care at some point in their lives, and some who were even adopted. I’m grateful they made it through attitudes like yours to be here now. I’ve yet to hear one of them say they would have been better off dead before birth.

“After a kid draws its first breath, it’s out of luck. And I don’t see
any of the pro-birth groups using their resources to build shiny, new,
state-of-the-art orphanages for these kids.”

Sheer nonsense. Every pro-lifer I know also supports other causes to benefit older people (i.e., “birth-and-up” as well.

And when’s the last time you saw an orphanage, at least in North America? Do they still exist? I’ve had friends wait years – yes, years – on lists to adopt a child. I’ve had others adopt from overseas for a variety of reasons, including that adopting domestically just isn’t feasible much of the time due to a lack of prospective adoptees.

Please stop using the “way too many children waiting to be adopted” meme. It’s silly and completely fantasy-based. If you know of a way for these children to be adopted ASAP, like now, let us all know. I know families who are waiting and would LOVE to have some of these mythical unwanted children.

12angrymen

Really…”completely fantasy based?” There is something called a foster system in our country with hundreds of thousands of children still in it. Once kids hit a certain age their likelihood of being adopted drops dramatically, as most couples only want to adopt babies and not troubled children.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=681473501 Clarissa Masnaghetti

Babies are not found in the foster care system unless their parents have failed them in one way or another. Babies are adopted immediately from people on waiting lists. They are not only adopted, but there are so many people waiting to adopt a baby that the birth mother can choose the family, opt for an open adoption, and have all of her medical expenses (as well as other expenses) paid for by the adoptive parents in most cases.

I completely agree that the state of our foster care system is deplorable. This is not to downplay the great work many foster parents do in providing for the children in their care, but the over-all system is incredibly broken. Killing the children to keep them out of the foster care system is not the answer. True, if the foster care system became unnecessary the problems there would become non-issues. Demolishing a broken foster care system is not worth the blood of the millions of babies already spilled, and those lives that will be ended in the future. The solution is not to end lives, but to do everything in our power to care for all humans, born and unborn.

Samantha_

That is certainly not true. We foster adopted several older children, eventually adopting as their biological parents’ rights were terminated. They are 2 of a sibling group of 6 in the system, all adopted to fine families who love them as the gifts they are. I personally don’t know of any orphanages in my area! All of the foster children whose parents are working out a case plan or who are tied up in the legal system have foster homes. What exactly is your thought process? A baby is born then placed into an orphanage? Isn’t that something you saw on Oliver Twist or something? Modern life is different. I don’t know many children who aren’t ‘inconveniences’ on their parents at some point or other. People are deserving of love. If I could adopt 10 I would! You can come stay with us, too!

Chinjur

I have 5 beautiful children. I was suffering hard economic times when I became pregnant with the last one. Not from my lack of knowledge though. Birth control didn’t work and now I have my beautiful son. Furthermore, my pro life church helped with some of my finances while I got on my feet. So the people I see helping those in need are the ones who are pro life. How emotionally scarring do you feel it is for a woman to go through an abortion without first having the knowledge of what is going on inside them? Imagine if a woman had an abortion and then years later discovered just what exactly was going on inside her womb and regretted her decision? Is it not fair that a woman have the knowledge needed before making any medical decision? Since you feel that this is a choice, wouldn’t you want to believe it was informed, or do you want mindless people supporting your cause?

R_E

I’m surprised to heart that SMU, a (historically) “Methodist” institution of learning, will be combating 40 Days for Life. Someone needs to tell these schools that if they don’t want to follow mainstream religious values, maybe they ought to remove all references to religion from their schools’ names.

Tom

I believe that society would be healthier without churches but I don’t agitate for their removal.

Here’s a tip for you Kristen. If such meetings upset you, don’t go to them. If abortion upsets you, don’t have one.

And leave other women alone to make the choices that are best for them.

I’m sure you’ll be happier.

Nanamiro

This mode of thinking is what allowed the holocaust to happen in a “civilized” society. Look the other way, and look out for yourself.

Tom

No it isn’t. The mode of thinking which caused the holocaust was a group in power deciding that a particular section of society should be deleted. There is no comparison with abortion which is decided on an individual, one by one, basis with no central plan to remove a partcicular section of society.

Spring

Perhaps Tom, you’d like to explain Margaret Sanger’s philosophies and why she was not a Hitler handmaiden. PP “somehow” aborts many more African American babies than Caucasian ones. Sir, you are hard pressed to convince me there isn’t more than coincidence at work. Hitler killed 11,000,000 people. 6,000,000 were Jews within short distances of neighborhoods. Have you seen news footage of those neighbors entering concentration camps after WWII, light and smiling and leaving devastated and in tears after what they had seen? They didn’t understand what had occurred in their own backyard. They were not “bad” people. They were just kept in the dark.I guarantee if Americans each witnessed abortion, including the lies women are told before and after their babies are killed, The outcry in this country would be deafening.

Tom

I’m well aware of the horrors of the holocaust but any attempts at comparison with abortion are totally invalid.

Spring

Tom, That would be your opinion. I get to have my own.

Tom

Sure, it’s your opinion. But it’s extremely ill-informed.

Laurie Gail

Actually, TOM, you are the “ill-informed”one. What we do know, is there was an entire population with few exceptions, that watched the holocaust and did nothing. I submit to you, there is a fair amount of them, given a second chance, would try to stop it. Especially if they were allowed to “see” pictures of what was happening to the Jews. Sonograms, listening to the heartbeat, pictures make an informed patient, choosing an abortion. Abortion and holocaust can be compared because in both cases “innocents” were murdered. People that go through years of the Justice System, then are put to death, are guilty. You know the saying, guns don’t kill people, people kill people, right? How about, pens don’t misspell words, people do? The system (people), is the decider, not the death penalty. If women were shown a picture of the fetus, at the exact time of her pregnancy, I believe abortion would go out of business. Planned Parenthood can’t have that.

Zirbert Zirbert

The shoe fits. Wear it.

12angrymen

In comparing the holocaust and abortion you conveniently leave out the glaring differences. For one, many Jews and other minorities were placed in death camps in which they were tortured, starved, gassed, and worked to the bone. Almost an entire country, led by one person, tried to eliminate a single group of people whereas abortion happens in a large number of countries by people of all races; and I doubt the goal of Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers is to eliminate all the babies in the world. That is why abortion is not a “holocaust,” as it does not systematically seek to eliminate one group of people as all races and numerous countries participate. (and by the way, “a child in utero” is not a section of society it is a stage of human development; by saying a child in utero is a separate section you are saying that a child in the womb is different from a born child)

Zirbert Zirbert

“In comparing the holocaust and abortion you conveniently leave out the
glaring differences.”

No, I compared the similarities. Of course there are differences. That’s why there are two different words involved. Even analogies, which are much stronger than the point I’ve made here, aren’t perfect. That’s why they’re analogies, not equalities.

“(and by the way, “a child in
utero” is not a section of society it is a stage of human development;
by saying a child in utero is a separate section you are saying that a
child in the womb is different from a born child)”

A stage of human development is a section of society. Or are children, adolescents, and adults not distinct groups?

And a child in utero is different from a born child, just as a woman in a car is different from a woman in a boat. However, in either case, the current location of said person has no bearing at all on their moral worth or right to survive.

Chinjur

Just something to think about…. Baby’s in the womb do feel pain. Though it is unclear when exactly and to what degree, science is constantly discovering ways of reading an unborn child’s pain. So, if the baby is feeling pain and being ripped limb by limb, struggling the entire time, would you consider that torture? Or what about having an acid inserted in the placenta where it eats away the baby? Or what about scissors to the back of the spine? Listen up, I don’t get the holocaust reference 100% either, but I do agree that innocent life is being annihilated and turning a blind eye is not a means of dealing with the real crisis. Killing is wrong.

12angrymen

You “guarantee?” Then why is that a large percentage of abortions are from women who have had multiple abortions?

Spring

Apparently the repeat aborters don’t have a grasp on cause and effect. Perhaps it’s just laziness. It certainly is irresponsible. If you re-read what I wrote, you will understand that I said, “If each American witnessed an abortion….” I’m a retired RN. I would not have understood what a surgical procedure entailed unless I had SEEN it. What do you think a woman actually “sees” during her abortion? There are more pro-lifers in this country than you realize. Technology has come a long way since Roe vs Wade. People are more informed. “A Lump of Tissue” no longer is believable, if you are informed.

Mrs.Opinion

I would like to offer another thought on multiple abortions. Hyperfertility. Some couples are hyper-fertile despite proper use of contraception. We forget that abstinence is the only sure way to prevent pregnancy, especially in our sex-obsessed culture. If they are falling prey to the lies that if you use contraception, you won’t get pregnant, then they will have abortions especially if they are returning to the same place where they received their contraceptive counseling.

Zirbert Zirbert

“The mode of thinking which caused the holocaust was a group in power
deciding that a particular section of society should be deleted.”

Right. Which is what Nanamiro said. Abortion is one group – a pregnant woman, her doctor, and the drum-pounding politically correct “choice defenders” – deciding that a section of society – the child in utero – should be deleted.

Your “if it doesn’t hurt me, why should I care” / “if it doesn’t hurt you, why should you care” attitude is amoral at best, immoral at worst. I can’t share it, because I have a conscience.

Tom

The concept and implementation of the holoacust is not analogous of abortion in any way. There is no centralised power group which has identifed and planned the complete extinction of a particular group. Abortion is an individual decision and action.

Spring

Holocaust: slaughter, devastation, genocide, pogrom, inferno, fire. Since WWII, the word holocaust seems to be used mainly in connection to The Holocaust. It’s actual definition does not indicate a central group focusing on one group’s extermination, with the exception of “pogrom”. Abortion is indeed a holocaust. It is a slaughter. It is a slaughter of babies. Think of the pictures of piles of bodies from concentration camps. If I could even imagine the pile of infant bodies as a result of legalized abortion in the world and some way turn that vision into an 8×10 glossy, I might even convince you, it indeed is a holocaust.

Tom

Abortion is one persons decision acting in a singular situation.

There is no plan, pogrom, intent or activity aimed at the removal of every fetus.

The majority of fetuses still go on to become babies.

Therefore the application of any terms such as holocaust is false.

Zirbert Zirbert

Abortion is still someone with power deciding that members of a group are subhuman and can be exterminated. That’s the Holocaust comparison.

Whether the someone with power is a centralized group or a well-meaning politically correct PTA member is irrelevant to the comparison.

Whether the group that can be exterminated are defined based on their enthicity or their age is irrelevant to the comparison.

No, abortion is not genocide, because no one is advocating the extermination of the entire targeted group. Well, almost no one. I’ve seen statements from zero-population-growth supporters and people who use the term “breeders'” as a slur that come pretty close. But we’ll overlook them for the purpose of this point.

And no, abortion is not the same thing as the Holocaust (as opposed to “a” – or is it “an?” – holocaust, no capital h – in acknowledgement of Spring’s point). There are comparisons that can be drawn, but there are also differences. That’s why they’re are two different words.

Tom

Abortion is still someone with power deciding that members of a group
are subhuman and can be exterminated. – they are only impacting on a singular entity within themselves. They are not targetting any group.
That’s the Holocaust comparison. – tenuous beyond the point of any validity.
There is no ‘group’ being ‘identified’ for ‘extermination’.
So it’s not genocide and its not a holocaust. It’s just individual women terminating the one fetus which is within them.

Spring

Abortion IS a holocaust. Abortion is not the WWII Holocaust. Holocaust can means several things, slaughter being one. Burn completely is another definition…..and so on.

Tom

There is no ‘slaughter’ and there is no ‘burn completely’ when it comes to abortion so once again your wild propaganda is not sustained.

Spring

What do you think is done to “medical waste?” Incinerated. I call the killing of innocents a slaughter. You can dress it up and call it Shirley. It doesn’t change WHAT it really is. Since you think I’m “ill informed” and that seems a bit annoying to you, I deduce that you like people to be fully informed. Perhaps you can explain why a pregnant woman is not informed of stages of fetal development, reflexive pain, etc, etc, etc when she enters a PP Clinic. It never ceases to amaze me how pro-aborts wholeheartedly support the “Information Age” only when it benefits their argument. I call you out as a sexist because, based on your insistence of perpetuating the myth that a fetus is not a human, you deceive women into killing their babies. In doing so, you set women back about 50 years AND you judge them to be incapable of making an INFORMED decision. You may as well pat their little heads and say, “Don’t worry your pretty little head. Don’t think about it. We’ll take care of your problem. We’re the pros. (You’re just a stupid woman)”. And Tom, if you happen to be a woman just using a male’s name, you are still a sexist.

Tom

Since not all fetuses are burnt because not all fetuses are aborted, your ‘burn completely’ analogy is still false.
Women are informed at PP clinics, to claim otherwise is a lie.
No-one ‘deceives’ women into having an abortion, that’s just ‘pro-life’ propaganda. If anything it is CPC’s which deceive.
I completely judge women to be capable of making an informed decision, it is the likes of you that seek to misguide them.

Spring

If ONLY the women made an INFORMED decision. There is a reason PP doesn’t want women to know the facts. Otherwise they would be willing to share US images with their patients. Since you compared abortion to an appendectomy, let’s compare. Apples and oranges. A 14 year old cannot go to ANY USA hospital and sign in for an Appy. Abortion IS a surgical procedure. Take that same 14 year old and she will need a parent or guardian to sign at least 5 consents to have her appendix removed. The Surgeon and person administering anesthesia are required by law to explain to her parents and, if of legal age of consent, the patient ALL known benefits and risks and other options. THAT is Informed Consent. Why are the requirements less at an abortion clinic? As an ER Nurse, I cared for young women with complications following legal abortion. Where are the clinics at that point? Women are being deceived and it must change for the well-being of the women. Why are you against arming women with knowledge? Is an educated woman a threat to you? Are you afraid ONE woman might change her mind and let her baby live? What fuels your fear?

Anonymous

” if murder makes you unhappy don’t murder anyone”
How many murders should the government ignore before a society is considered uncivilized, brutish, cruel, dangerous and inhumane?

To Tom and Terry, I had a family member strangled to death by a serial killer, who our whole family knew. Yes, that was murder because it is illegal. I wonder why he was labeled a “Serial Killer” and not a “Serial Murderer”? Technically you are correct, by Webster’s definition. But you are also lame. Our society uses the terms interchangeably. What I find incredibly, actually unspeakably tragic, is that my dearly, loved relative is just as dead either way. If one person causes the death of another, words hardly matter. No need to respond. I am a retired nurse and I have held an intact 6 week old miscarried baby in my small hand and I know what I know. BTW, I’m against the death penalty. I will not engage in an argument over when life begins because it is crystal clear to me. But, I certainly understand when it ends.

Tim Goyer

The death penalty doesn’t intentionally kill the only innocent actor.

Tom

The death penalty has been proven to kill innocent people.

Djushi

So has abortion.

Or would you call an uborn child ‘guilty’?

If abortion is wrong, it should be stopped, no matter who does it. Your case therefore must be that abortion is not wrong. How do you argue that? Do you argue that it does not take a life? Or that it is an act of mercy to take the life? Or that it is a greater evil to make a woman care for the child than to kill the child?

From what I see it seems to be your argument that abortion does not take a life. ???

Tom

A fetus is not a person.
It no more ‘takes a life’ than does appendix removal.

Spring

Tom, Would you say we know a bit more regarding fetal development than we did at the time of Roe VS Wade? Or, do you think, “it’s just a blob or clump of cells”? You’ve insulted my intelligence before, calling me “extremely ill-informed”. So, I just have to ask….Do you think the Earth is flat or a sphere? Help me out. I need a starting point, if we are to continue communicating. Thank you.

Spring

This is Spring replying to Spring…but really to Tom. I would like to apologize for saying something belittling to you. My passion runs high regarding abortion and I let anger get the best of me. I am sorry and would ask for your forgiveness. What I said was hurtful and it was wrong to say it. Take care.

Tom

I don’t feel anger or hurt at your words to me Spring. I understand your passion for your cause, misplaced as I feel it to be. I don’t get offended.

The earth is indeed a sphere. And a fetus is not a person.

Zirbert Zirbert

If a human fetus is not a person, then what is? This is purely a semantic issue, trying to dodge the reality that abortion takes a human life.

The word “fetus” does not imply a lack of humanity. It’s a stage of development, just like “infant”, “baby”, “child”, or “adult”.

Tom

A fetus has no thought processes beyond the basic functions of biological functioning and reflexive actions.
It has no self awareness, self identity or ‘thinking’ beyond that stated above.
It is not a person.

Zirbert Zirbert

Thanks for confirming that it’s purely semantics.

Are you a person when you’re asleep? Is a human being who’s been knocked unconscious, or who is in a coma (whether short-term or longer) a person?

A newborn baby has no higher mental function. Is it a person? I just want to know whether you’ll stand by your argument. When does it start being wrong to “terminate” a human being? When they begin responding to specific stimuli (by smiling, etc.)? When they say their first word? When they can buy the next round?

A fetal-stage human being is going to have all the qualities you list in the near future, unless killed first.

Whether a human fetus meets some arbitrary definition of “person” – and sure those goalposts would be moved as expedient – is irrelevant.

You’re also not helping the whole “it’s nothing like the Holocaust” argument. The Nazis could list lots of qualities that the Jews had or didn’t have that made them different from decent Aryans too.

Spring

Thank you Zirbert. You said what I feel.

Tom

The sleeping, the unconscious and the comatose have brain functions beyond that of a fetus. Heard of dreams?
A newborn baby does in fact have a higher mental function.
When it starts breathing for itself.
In the future isn’t now.
Your holocaust comparison is hollow.

Zirbert Zirbert

If “breathing for itself” is sufficient to entitle a human being to your subjective, arbitrary, and irrelevant definition of personhood, then why aren’t thumb-sucking, yawning, or doing somersaults, or actively attempting to avoid unpleasant or potentially dangerous stimuli, all of which are behaviours exhibited by humans in utero?

It has been demonstrated that newborns can distinguish the voices of their parents immediately upon birth. That’s because they recognize them. They could hear them, albeit muffled, over the last nine months, and remember them later. So much for no mental function. Do you think some sort of switch gets flipped when a baby exits the womb, suddenly turning their brain on?

What makes you think that a fetus doesn’t dream?

What makes you think that everyone in a coma, or knocked unconscious, does?

It’s all well and good to be determining who does and doesn’t qualify as a person, worthy of protection, as long as you’re one of the ones doing the determining, isn’t it?

Are you still going to pretend not to see the Holocaust comparison here?

Tom

I’m not pretending. The comparison doesn’t exist.
Your attempts to wish it to be so is just a sign of the desperate struggle for propaganda for use in an unwinnable campaign.

Zirbert Zirbert

So, that’s a yes to that question.

No response to any of the others, I notice. That’s OK, I’d just like you to think about them, even if you don’t reply to them here.

Tom

No, that was a ‘no’ to your question. You are the one trying to make a link which is unsustainable.
I have thought about your other questions. I found them to be nitpicking and irrelevant.

Zirbert Zirbert

So when you don’t have answers (or realize them but don’t want to admit them, even to yourself), you dismiss the questions as nitpicking and irrelevant. Once again, thanks for the honesty.

Djushi

I’m puttin this here because it’s too narrow down further. Thankyou Zirbert Zirbert, that’s just about what I was going to say. Sorry I didn’t get back earlier to post myself, been busy May I just ask Tom what his opinion consists of now?

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=681473501 Clarissa Masnaghetti

Unborn babies respond to sound, light, and movement. They come to know their mother’s voice in-utero which could only be accomplished with a functioning brain.

12angrymen

And yet some people who were put to death at the hands of “the people” were found to be innocent years later or there was much doubt surrounding the case. And yes, the death penalty intentionally kills someone every single time.

tgoyer

I guess reading comprehension isn’t high on your list of soft-skills. The death penalty doesn’t **intentionally** kill the only innocent actor. Abortion does.

Hutttnertina47

our nation is better with god because he is love and light!the devil is with the pro choicers! All those inoccent babys that are in heaven are going to wonder dont you grieve for me? so many say that the war in the middle east have taken so many and too many but no its abortion that has taken too many.for those doctors that dont care you certanly dont belong in pariadize.as mother threatsa said we all need to make a point in loving other and wanting them.

Canadian

“abortion [in Canada] is a lot like it is [in America]: rare and mostly in the first trimester.”

Is she serious? Our abortion rates are just as high as those in America. I don’t see how anyone could call that “rare”. Since reporting is largely voluntary, reliable statistics are dated and hard to come by (especially regarding late term abortions). If she knew any better, she would use the Netherlands as a successful example of the so-called “safe, legal, and rare” model (conveniently omitting the fact that the Netherlands has a five day waiting period).

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1497076194 Travis Pierson

It’s all about demography. Pro-lifers and conservatives have more children than members of the left’s death cult. Children raised by parents who respect, value and love life are more likely to pass those values on when they become parents themselves. Abortion rights fanatics, on the other hand, have eliminated a generation of children who could otherwise have been raised to believe as they do.

They can’t win without the support of OUR children – and they can’t have mine.

Guest.

While I am not a pro-choicer, I can’t believe you think that you ‘respect, value and love life’ by calling a complete group of people, whom you have not met and have a stereotyped view of, a ‘death-cult’. Perhaps using speaking like you just have is one of the reasons why we cannot get members of pro-choice to listen to us….it does not help the lives of children to banter, it just fuels frustration and makes us seem uneducated. Perhaps if we do love and respect life, we should show love and respect to all life, even to those who disagree with us. Our cause will be better served, and more lives will be saved, if we show that we care for ALL life. Including the lives of those that are hardest to love. Just…on behalf of people that are doing more than just bantering with the opposing viewpoint, please stop using terms such as ‘death-cult’.

Tecood

I know! How can you possibly call a bunch of people who believe that murdering your child should be legal a death cult??

While your argument is good in theory, this kind of politically correctness is ultimately not good for society. A lot of the time, we seem to get so caught up in being “respectful” that we don’t share the complete truth about abortion. You know what? Murder isn’t respectful. If being disrespectful will help end abortion, (as it often can with the “disturbing” abortion photos), then I’ll be what pro-abortion fanatics consider “disrespectful.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1497076194 Travis Pierson

Thanks for the assist. It is through being respectful to the absurd that our society has fallen to the point where one can actually believe a baby whose body is completely exposed but who has not yet breathed air is not human and can therefore be killed. Each of us chooses what offends us. It is imperative to my humanity that I remain offended and horrified by such acts.

I try to speak the truth and let the consequences follow. If supporters and proponents of evil acts are offended by the truth, so be it.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1497076194 Travis Pierson

Thanks for the assist. It is through being respectful to the absurd that our society has fallen to the point where one can actually believe a baby whose body is completely exposed but who has not yet breathed air is not human and can therefore be killed. Each of us chooses what offends us. It is imperative to my humanity that I remain offended and horrified by such acts.

I try to speak the truth and let the consequences follow. If supporters and proponents of evil acts are offended by the truth, so be it.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1497076194 Travis Pierson

I call ’em like I see ’em. There are many who actually are conflicted about the issue and actually believe the “safe, legal and rare” meme. Abortion advocates use these words because they sound sensible, but are only pro-choice if the woman involved chooses to have an abortion. They will do anything to dehumanize the life growing inside the woman and nudge her toward that decision. They are perfectly fine calling the pregnant woman a “mother” to make her a sympathetic character, but heaven forbid the clump of tissue inside her uterus be called a “child” (doesn’t a woman have to have a child to be a mother?). They have spent decades stacking the deck in their favor to a single, horrible end.

They worship at the altar of the aborted fetus.

They are a death cult.

Zirbert Zirbert

“I can’t believe you think that you ‘respect, value and love life’ by
calling a complete group of people, whom you have not met and have a
stereotyped view of, a ‘death-cult’.”

First up, why do you assume that the poster (or anyone else) has never met someone who is pro-abortion?

Second, exactly when are we allowed to call out evil? I eagerly await your permission.

Spring

I am a Christian. I have been forgiven much. I respect, value, and love life. I hope I never live to see a time when I would not label an act as evil. God’s word tells us He loves us all. He wants ALL of us to turn to Him. It is His job to judge a person as evil, not mine. When a serial killer murdered my loved one, I became very angry and devastated. I was in that place for a while. I knew the killer and the victim. God brought me to a place where I could pray for the killer’s salvation as he sat on death row. He died of disease before being executed. I don’t believe in the death penalty. I pray he asked God’s forgiveness before his last breath. I pray everyone connected to abortions will repent. God’s Grace covers me and I have no doubt His Grace is enough to cover All.

http://twitter.com/LorraineJohnso Lorraine Johnson

“Evil sat in pews around me with folded arms, feeling very concerned
about the plight of poor women, wearing pants it bought at Macy’s. Evil
looked like people you see at the grocery store. And, most terrifying of
all, evil thought it was doing good.”

Chilling. True. How women can help other women murder & sit back and call it “good”. Great post.

Anonymous

I think that many Unitraians are pro life and so are many Athesist.
I know there is a God but i’m not a member of any organized religious group but I’m probably more anti abortion than 80% of Republicans are to the point I think congress should take into account abortion when making its constitutional duty on foreign trade policy.
Even with Western European nations and Canada if they fund the murder of babies they surely should not have favored nation trade status with the US.
One good thing I’ve heard about the UU churches the goverence is a lot like the Indepedent Baptist Church the local congregation controls the church they don’t take orders from the national or international headquarters, the local members hires and fires their preacher.
If they are like the Baptist then if some of them does not like the way the church is being run or the things they are promoting they can go up the road or across the street even and form a new church.
I know people here in South East Tennessee that will drive 60 miles each way and pass 10 Baptist Churches to go to their Baptist Church.

guest

i have had an abortion because that was the best choice for ME. i didn’t ask a stranger their opinion because it didn’t matter. if you wanted me to have my baby sooo bad, you should have been sending me checks to support it because I could not afford it & didn’t want to have a welfare baby which was a huge factor in my decision. if you have never been in the situation, you shouldn’t look down on those that have.

Laurie Gail

I am sorry for your loss. Also, I am sorry for the loss of a couple that would have adopted your child. I know this because I had an abortion, 35 years ago. Twins. My heart still breaks for what I did to those babies. In addition, My five year old granddaughter lights up our life every day. She is adopted due to the mother’s inability at the time to rake up enough money to get the abortion. Then it was too late, Thank God. I was at her birth, and the birth mom is still in my thoughts for the gift she gave us. I do not “look down on those that have” had an abortion, I feel sorry for them. We want women to know there are other options. I look at my sweet granddaughter and I KNOW there are other options. I also know a young, college woman who gave up her baby for adoption. I was at the hospital during the birth and the watched the adoptive parents fall in love with the boy, Never, have I seen the selfless love of a mother to place their kid for adoption. “Choice” is what you have for dinner or what you wear today. Giving life is a Blessed event whether that life is raised by us or a loving adoptive family. God Bless you and heal your heart so that you no longer feel the need to justify your decision.

Spring

Dear Laurie, Bless you due to your loss of twins. Thank you for your story of encouragement. I hope you continue to enjoy your granddaughter and have more. We ALL have made regretful decisions, but forgiveness is there for the asking. I know. I have been forgiven much. Take care and God bless you.

Spring

So, you didn’t know what caused a pregnancy to start? Now that you know, you won’t have to go thru another surgical procedure.

Beth

Actually I have been in your situation twice, the first time I got pregnant I was 16 years old with my whole life ahead of me. Did I kill my baby NO. I have raised that child and now he is a productive member of society, 18, going to university and working. Was it easy, no way hardest thing in my life ever. But was it the right choice. Everytime I look at him I think of all the “pro-choice” people that pressured me to kill him. If I had followed there advise he would have been thrown away in a dumpster. He has given me the greatest happiness and the greatest sorrow in my whole life. but I would not change a minute of it ever

Spring

Beth, I love your post. Thank you!!

Rich

Thanks Beth, I too love your post!

Rich

Since when is being poor a sin?? Where as murder is a serious sin. Yes, abortion (legal or not legal) is murder! I’ll bet you are very happy your mother didn’t choose abortion!

Me

Many people would have been happy to adopt your baby. Not that that’s what you SHOULD have chosen necessarily, but it’s true.

Zirbert Zirbert

Unless you were raped (which I doubt, because I’m sure it would have been in your first few sentences), you were utterly irresponsible.

However, your child was your responsiblity, and his/her father’s (where was he, again?). You failed.

Have you any sense of personal responsibility at all? Why would your child be anyone else’s responsibility, under any circumstances?

I am a parent. I an responsible for my child. I don’t get to say ” you should have been sending me checks to support” my family. That’s my job. I “didn’t want to have a welfare baby” either, so I got a job. Before having the child, even.

I hope you can heal from this. Sincerely. You’ve made a terrible, terrible mistake. Please turn your life around, if you haven’t already.

Anonymous

Thanks for doing this.. YES it is scarey. and sad.
BUT: Who’ll speak up for the little ones, hopeless and half abandoned?? They’ve got a right to choose, life they dont’ want to lose. I’ve got to speak up — won’t you? (an old Phil Keaggy tune).

Please keep up what you’re doing – I swear, SOME DAY, those who stood against this atrocity will be seen as the Rosa Parks — – those who bravely stand and say “no more, not on my watch”. We will collectively as a nation look back on this era and see it for the black stain on our nation – and we will weep for the millions we have killed.

Anonymous

what I learned, which is basically this: that it is just as bad as we fear it is.

But you didn’t hear anyone condoning the sexual trafficking of minors, planning to eliminate an ethic minority, or discussing how best to coerce women into abortion. So the good news is, it’s nowhere near as bad as Live Action fearmongers.

Thanks for having the courage to admit that y’all don’t buy the stuff that you peddle.

Canadian

Because those are the sorts of things they would talk about at a meeting any idiot can attend. If they were, why would hidden camera investigations be necessary?

Anonymous

Because those are the sorts of things they would talk about at a meeting any idiot can attend.

I’m not saying that Ms. Walker is the sharpest knife in the drawer, but it’s not very nice to call her idiot.

Chinjur

Seeing that in Northrup’s opinion that the sonogram bill is sexist because it only applies to women, I came away with the idea that she may be the idiot actually!!

Zirbert Zirbert

Well done. Congratulations on making it out of the meeting without being physically sickened.

This is the most crucial part of your essay:

“I was upset because I had seen evil, and evil was mundane. Evil had a
very impressive law degree and sensible brown shoes. Evil sat in pews
around me with folded arms, feeling very concerned about the plight of
poor women, wearing pants it bought at Macy’s. Evil looked like people
you see at the grocery store. And, most terrifying of all, evil thought
it was doing good.”

This is, indeed, the heart of the problem in our society at this point. So many “useful idiots”, so many otherwise nice people cheerfully paving the road to Hell with their good intentions. I wish more people would watch the movie Conspiracy, a reenactment of an actual meeting where a group of very polite and cultured men sat around a table discussing how to best benefit society by exterminating every Jew they could find.

The attitudes, thoughts, words, and behaviour of pro-abortionists (I reject their term, “pro-choice” – pro-what choice? The choice for abortion? Then you’re pro-abortion) are absolutely no better. They’re really not even significantly different.

As a side note, if anyone reading this is one of those capable of ginning up false outrage and moral indignation over comparing abortion with the Holocaust – tough. The shoe fits. Wear it.

Those who have come here to defend the pro-aborts at the meeting, and complain about Kristin’s article are a huge part of the problem. Self-reflection isn’t just for monks on mountaintops.

Thank you, Kristin.

12angrymen2223324242424d2

Congratulations, you have just fit the typical pro lifer ignorant and condescending stereotype to a t. It is loving, understanding, and caring people like you who will surely help the cause.

Spring

The truth hurts. THE TRUTH sets me free.

12angrymen

There are many truths in this world, but personally I have never been hit, smacked, punched, stabbed, or otherwise injured by truth nor has truth ever freed me from a cage, a prison cell, or a boring and utterly monotonous lecture.

Wow. Those poor women, they really bought the farm. I had a botched abortion in 1982, and up until then was clueless to what “choice” was. When I went to confront the clinic, they said I didn’t go there. When I asked the “nurse” why they didn’t talk in-depth about birth control, she said “That’s not our responsibility.” It’s sad to see these “sheeple:” just follow along, listening to hollow, empty phrases that when you dig deep enough have no meaning, no back up. She has a law degree? Big deal! I learned more from that horrible experience, and it wasn’t until ten years later in nursing school I found out what laminaria was. I had a D&E and no idea what that was. It sickened me to find out ten years later what happened to me. What would happen to them if I was one of their loved ones? What would they say?

Cpr1224

do you really think you will ever END abortion? If you do then you do not know history. You are an idiot!

Spring

Really? Our country has come to it’s senses and ended MANY injustices. We grow. We become enlightened. Our technology increases. Of course the practice of killing babies as they quietly, peacefully and innocently rest in the cozy wombs they share with their mothers, may someday seem as outrageous as a “Coloreds Only” drinking fountain. I have more faith in mankind. People for Civil Rights were called “idiots” in the ’60s. It hardly dissuaded them.

Chinjur

So, if I am understanding this correctly, it is emotionally abusive to give information to a patient before the make a decision regarding their health? What about the woman who finally realizes that her choice to have an abortion was actually a choice to end a living being? Does she suffer emotional abuse for not having her Dr. that she trusted tell her what will be going on inside her? I always try to understand the other side of the debate, but this makes it even more difficult!! I am sorry you had to sit through that mess and I will be praying for those “Texas Women”.

Laura

“A right you can’t access is not a right at all.”

For me the supreme irony is for the exceptionally poor person in the womb who will die early owing to abortion. Right to life? Talk about a sham-right!

When will we stop putting ourselves in situations where we become pregnant? That would constitute a major, responsible position by us, and maybe we COULD be trusted more as a group if we began acting in a trust-worthy manner.

http://www.facebook.com/rhoslyn Rhoslyn Thomas

You are so brave! I hope I get a chance to do this one day soon because you definitely learn so much! Your articles are very inspring. Don’t worry, I’ll keep doing what I’m doing until abortion is illegal!