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Hall of Fame

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Because billionaires don't become billionaires by buying things or starting a business just to sit at the same value or take a dip. Their egos alone won't go for that.

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So that generalization is the reason why Kroenke has to move the team to LA? Even though NOTHING indicates that this is what HE is about. That he doesn't purchase sports franchises to SELL them, but on paper it feeds his ego?

Seems to me, that billionaires become billionaires because they MAKE $$$, REAL $$$ not paper $$$. and to reiterate, what does increasing the value of he franchise do for his bottom line, if he has ZERO interest in selling the team?

Hall of Fame

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So that generalization is the reason why Kroenke has to move the team to LA? Even though NOTHING indicates that this is what HE is about. That he doesn't purchase sports franchises to SELL them, but on paper it feeds his ego?

Seems to me, that billionaires become billionaires because they MAKE $$$, REAL $$$ not paper $$$. and to reiterate, what does increasing the value of he franchise do for his bottom line, if he has ZERO interest in selling the team?

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Who knows what his plan is for selling the team down the line. Of course, he is not a young guy at this point so he may not care about any of that. He may not have purchased the team with profit in mind at all, but, that is doubtful.
The main problem is St. Louis agreed to a bad deal to start with which does not have the city sharing in much of the money coming in and the Rams paying $250 k year in leases.
The city offering $150 M in upgrades seems like lip service, but, the Rams counter offer of $700M seems intentionally too high.
Having a billion dollars and being worth a billion are two different things, either way, Stan is wealthy beyond imagination and his list of holdings is very impressive.
The reason stan likes to own the stadiums of the teams he owns is it increases worth and profit. I keep coming back to this from Forbes:#31 St. Louis Rams
Value: $780 million
Profit: $6.7 million

Seems a crappy ROI. Cities and states dont seem to be in the stadium funding business these days and tax implications (for taxpayers and Kroenke) may be a big factor. It will be interesting to watch this going forward.

Hall of Fame

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Who knows what his plan is for selling the team down the line. Of course, he is not a young guy at this point so he may not care about any of that. He may not have purchased the team with profit in mind at all, but, that is doubtful.
The main problem is St. Louis agreed to a bad deal to start with which does not have the city sharing in much of the money coming in and the Rams paying $250 k year in leases.
The city offering $150 M in upgrades seems like lip service, but, the Rams counter offer of $700M seems intentionally too high.
Having a billion dollars and being worth a billion are two different things, either way, Stan is wealthy beyond imagination and his list of holdings is very impressive.
The reason stan likes to own the stadiums of the teams he owns is it increases worth and profit. I keep coming back to this from Forbes:#31 St. Louis Rams
Value: $780 million
Profit: $6.7 million

Seems a crappy ROI. Cities and states dont seem to be in the stadium funding business these days and tax implications (for taxpayers and Kroenke) may be a big factor. It will be interesting to watch this going forward.

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There are two things that jump out at me with your post.

You mentioned the "intentionally too high" proposal of $700M for the renovations. I see this as away of ensuring it would be rejected. Why? Because IF the CVC were to have agreed to the upgrades, the Rams (Kroenke) would have been locked into the lease thru 2025. While the "cost" of the lease is very appealing, at the $250K figure you posted, it also gives the majority of the "gameday" revenue to the city. Hence the $6.7M reported profit.

Now that the proposal has been rejected, and both parties chose not to honor the arbitrator's recommendation, Kroenke is NOW free to negotiate for a new stadium. That includes STL as a potential (probable) location. Which, IMO, is what he has wanted all along. With that stadium in place, which HE would own and control, he gets the same bottom line results. A shiny new stadium, a revenue stream from the parking, concessions, and even the INCREASED VALUE of the franchise because the STADIUM now becomes part of the net worth.

For all of those who continue to think he is willing to BUILD his stadium in LA, pay what most reasonable projections agree would be approaching a $1B relocation fee, all to "increase the value of the franchise" just seem to be trying real hard to find reasons to make this feasible. By the time its all said and done, his COSTS would be in excess of TWO BILLION DOLLARS in LA.

I will not even try to claim I know any more than anyone else as to what he will eventually do. But I am not one to buy into all the conspiracy theories. All the REAL $$$ signs point to staying in STL to be much more "profitable".

Grill and Brew Master

Moderator

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Can someone point to where this $1 Billion relocation fee is coming from? Four times what the last two teams paid? I can't find anything that backs that up.

I agree that this whole thing has been about building the Rams complex the way Stan wants it built and the $700 million to renovate the dome was because they new they could make a case that $700 million is what it would take to bring that place up to the standard in the lease - NOT because he honestly thought the CVC would go for it or be able to sign off on it.

Stan can increase the value of his franchise without moving it to LA. And he can potentially get a better ROI by keeping it in St Louis.

Mr. Savant

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You mentioned the "intentionally too high" proposal of $700M for the renovations. I see this as away of ensuring it would be rejected. Why? Because IF the CVC were to have agreed to the upgrades, the Rams (Kroenke) would have been locked into the lease thru 2025. While the "cost" of the lease is very appealing, at the $250K figure you posted, it also gives the majority of the "gameday" revenue to the city. Hence the $6.7M reported profit.

Now that the proposal has been rejected, and both parties chose not to honor the arbitrator's recommendation, Kroenke is NOW free to negotiate for a new stadium. That includes STL as a potential (probable) location. Which, IMO, is what he has wanted all along. With that stadium in place, which HE would own and control, he gets the same bottom line results. A shiny new stadium, a revenue stream from the parking, concessions, and even the INCREASED VALUE of the franchise because the STADIUM now becomes part of the net worth.

For all of those who continue to think he is willing to BUILD his stadium in LA, pay what most reasonable projections agree would be approaching a $1B relocation fee, all to "increase the value of the franchise" just seem to be trying real hard to find reasons to make this feasible. By the time its all said and done, his COSTS would be in excess of TWO BILLION DOLLARS in LA.

I will not even try to claim I know any more than anyone else as to what he will eventually do. But I am not one to buy into all the conspiracy theories. All the REAL $$$ signs point to staying in STL to be much more "profitable".

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You're of the same mind as I, we are clearly the smartest people posting here.

You're estimates for the stadium are low. One billion won't do it, it'll take more than the stadium that just hosted the SB. That venue was 1.6 million. Building in CA will cost more than NJ. If he managed to do it for 1.5 billion and then had to pay the same fee the Texans did he would spend 2.2 billion dollars to move to LA.

Well-Known Member

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So a Fee to relocate, then the actual cost of moving the team (which i heard is in the upper hundreds of millions), and then the actual cost of building a stadium...moving also makes you inelligible for the G4 loan from the NFL, so there's a $200 million loss right there...

Mr. Savant

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So a Fee to relocate, then the actual cost of moving the team (which i heard is in the upper hundreds of millions), and then the actual cost of building a stadium...moving also makes you inelligible for the G4 loan from the NFL, so there's a $200 million loss right there...

yea...

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I didn't know moving means no G4 funds.......worth adding to the discussions thanks for bringing that up.

Hall of Fame

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I didn't know moving means no G4 funds.......worth adding to the discussions thanks for bringing that up.

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As long as we are adding to the pot..... Add the cost of a training facility comparable to Rams Park in Earth City, which is as good as any. In addition to the cost of the facility, they will need to purchase the land to build.

But hey, the VALUE of the Rams will have increased, so of course it makes all the financial sense in the world. The biggest irony to me, is most of the people who keep making the claims that it makes so much sense to move, are the same people who seem to say he can't make it here, and that the fans of MO should NOT give him another penny.

He's a billionaire after all. let him pay for it himself. They can spend his $$$, while trying to make us believe that moving would be a good financial move for Kroenke.

Grill and Brew Master

Moderator

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I guess my point isn't that it makes sense to move. To me it makes more sense to stay. But I still look at all the possible pieces. If as you say Coach, that the MO citizens should just spend Stan's $$$ and not give him another penny, I don't think that is in line with reality. I just don't think he will build a stadium without something from the region either in lots of tax deferrals, infrastructure improvements, etc... How much? I don't know. My only guess is that Stan works out the best deal he can for Stan. I firmly believe he would rather stay in MO but regardless, there will eventually be a team in LA and no matter what team that is, they will have the same costs involved less a $200 million LOAN.

My concern is that St Louisians (is that right?) take the stance that Stan is a BILLIONAIRE so let him pay the whole thing. 14 of the NFL owners are billionaires. Paul Allen is reportedly worth three times Stan's wealth. And yet the state aided big time in the construction of a stadium built on 30 acres downtown. In the grand scheme of things, regional and fan support means a lot.

I hope MO doesn't take the position that Stan is on his own in keeping the Rams there. I'm not too sure that will work out well for them.

Attempting to unlock mysteries of the universe

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That's essentially my stance as well, I think that Stan wants to keep the Rams in St Louis, but if they're not willing to play ball (and it seems at this point many are not) then he's going to take his ball and leave.

Hall of Fame

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I guess my point isn't that it makes sense to move. To me it makes more sense to stay. But I still look at all the possible pieces. If as you say Coach, that the MO citizens should just spend Stan's $$$ and not give him another penny, I don't think that is in line with reality. I just don't think he will build a stadium without something from the region either in lots of tax deferrals, infrastructure improvements, etc... How much? I don't know. My only guess is that Stan works out the best deal he can for Stan. I firmly believe he would rather stay in MO but regardless, there will eventually be a team in LA and no matter what team that is, they will have the same costs involved less a $200 million LOAN.

My concern is that St Louisians (is that right?) take the stance that Stan is a BILLIONAIRE so let him pay the whole thing. 14 of the NFL owners are billionaires. Paul Allen is reportedly worth three times Stan's wealth. And yet the state aided big time in the construction of a stadium built on 30 acres downtown. In the grand scheme of things, regional and fan support means a lot.

I hope MO doesn't take the position that Stan is on his own in keeping the Rams there. I'm not too sure that will work out well for them.

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I apologize if I made it sound like I THINK Missourians will take that stance. What I see happening, is something similar to how DeWitt and the Cardinals got Busch III built. Even though the voters didn't pony up by passing the bond issues, etc. the city, state found creative ways to make it work.

At the end of the day, Kroenke is looking for whatever ANYONE in his position would be looking for. The most financially attractive package he can assemble to get the stadium he wants. There will be city, county, state funds along with the G4 NFL money, and Kroenke himself. It has been said more often than I can count, that Kroenke is more than willing to putting up HIS share to get this done. But too many seem to have the impression he is looking for a "handout".

The thing that rankles the media types like Bernie and Charles Jaco, is that all of this is going to be done behind closed doors. So as I said earlier, in the absence of FACTS, just write articles based on nothing but conjecture and speculation. I guess Bernie assumes he is important enough in this town, that if he causes a big enough stir, then somehow it will force the powers that be to finally step up and address the issues to put a stop to his "noise". Nothing more than the "squeaky wheel" syndrome.

The sad part is, it does create quite the stir, and unfortunately, there are way too many people who think that if its in the newspaper or "on the internet" it must be true. Kinda like that tv commercial...

Binding you with ancient logic

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I'll be satisfied with this and any thread of this nature that comes to the consensus that Kroenke is not Gordon Gecko, he develops commercial property and creates jobs in the process that the positive economic impact he has had on many peoples lives is farther reaching than the economic bigots who portray him as some "carpetbagger" or corporate raider are capable of seeing.
He made a fortune because he was willing to take chances ,because he had vision and his vision will be what carries the day here,I too would be more at ease if he shared that vision with us so we could rid ourselves of the uncertainty, but his silence is very likely a prime factor in achieving his vision.
I trust that his vision was to have an NFL franchise here in St. Louis where he wants one and required of the previous owners when he bought in, this is our franchise to lose

UDFA

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Being #31 on the list of NFL franchises worth and #31 in attendance is not a good combo. The good news is unlike Modell in Cleveland, Kroenke is a good businessman and is not broke and taking loans to get free agents. So a city promising the world and to pay off your debts is not as enticing and dire. The bad news is that Kroenke is a good businessman and if he can build a Stadium and draw more than the 55,000 on average that he does in St. Louis and put it in a potential location where he can increase the value of the team, there is not a lot to stop him. I would encourage your fans to start attending games and writing letters.

Hall of Fame

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So that generalization is the reason why Kroenke has to move the team to LA? Even though NOTHING indicates that this is what HE is about. That he doesn't purchase sports franchises to SELL them, but on paper it feeds his ego?

Seems to me, that billionaires become billionaires because they MAKE $$$, REAL $$$ not paper $$$. and to reiterate, what does increasing the value of he franchise do for his bottom line, if he has ZERO interest in selling the team?

Click to expand...

Well ... .I never said he should or should not move to L.A. I was responding to why would a billionaire care if his value in something goes up. Well ... that is how they become millionaires and then billionaires. If something is stagnant, they usually shed it.

Also ... about your quote about "real money" ... do you know any billionaires? I do. I work for one. and his "real money" (and ALL billionaires" is net worth. Liquid assets. They don't actually HAVE that money. What they have is "holdings" that are "worth" money ... if liquidated. But they buy nothing with cash. So in order for his "investment" to fit his portfolio, it has to increase in value. Men of that magnitude of "worth" cannot stand putting $$$ into something that does NOT increase their "worth". It doesn't look good in the old portfolio... if ya know what I mean. But to people like this.... wealth is a game .. .and they ALL want to win. Once they get into that Forbes Club .... their egos just won't allw them to look bad. Stan's business is real estate and development. Sports franchises are just "toys"..... but they won't let a "toy" drag down their net worth. They STRIVE for more... always.

Hall of Fame

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Well ... .I never said he should or should not move to L.A. I was responding to why would a billionaire care if his value in something goes up. Well ... that is how they become millionaires and then billionaires. If something is stagnant, they usually shed it.

Also ... about your quote about "real money" ... do you know any billionaires? I do. I work for one. and his "real money" (and ALL billionaires" is net worth. Liquid assets. They don't actually HAVE that money. What they have is "holdings" that are "worth" money ... if liquidated. But they buy nothing with cash. So in order for his "investment" to fit his portfolio, it has to increase in value. Men of that magnitude of "worth" cannot stand putting $$$ into something that does NOT increase their "worth". It doesn't look good in the old portfolio... if ya know what I mean. But to people like this.... wealth is a game .. .and they ALL want to win. Once they get into that Forbes Club .... their egos just won't allw them to look bad. Stan's business is real estate and development. Sports franchises are just "toys"..... but they won't let a "toy" drag down their net worth. They STRIVE for more... always.

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Trust me. I get that whole "net worth" thing. Thank you for the high finance lesson nonetheless. I always appreciate being talked down to. It keeps me humble.

The one thing I agree with you on. His "sports teams" are his toys. But the one thing you seem to be overlooking. He doesn't buy them to sell them off. And by "real $$$" I was referring to the actual bottom line in terms of profit and loss.

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