A friend of mine (Rick Arnold) has suggested a possible L21 scenario basedon his reading of Henri Hubert's old book, "The Rise of the Celts."Apparently Hubert wrote that the Goidels once inhabited NW Germany but leftlock, stock and barrel during the Bronze Age for the British Isles. Hubertfound similarities in the layout of some Bronze Age NW German farms andIrish farms (as opposed to the usual German farm layout) and certainartifacts common to both Britain and NW Germany such as flanged axes withhammered and incised decorations, flat-tanged swords, and certain kinds ofbrooches and torques, as well as other items.

I realize Hubert's work is somewhat dated, but at least he, unlike mostmodern authors, would countenance the idea of some sort of migration. Ihaven't read his books yet, but I just ordered the two-volume set on theCelts from Amazon and am looking forward to its arrival.

I vote for a Continental origin. My research suggests two pathways into the British Isles for the Goidel (Gael or Féni), which does house R-U152 and R-L21.

1. Migration to Ireland from northern Spain or southern France,

2. Migration from Central Europe (Germany) into the British Isles (England, Wales, Ireland, and Scotland)

I state in a previous post at this forum entitled R1b1c10 (S28+) in Ireland posted 4 November 2007 that "it is possible these waves of migration were all Germanic in origin." Granted that post is dated before the discovery of R-L21 and in response to the so-called Viking origin of R-U152 proposed at that time, however, it is still my hypothesis that these migrations came out of Central Italy to Central Europe (Germany/France) then proceeded into the British Isles via the above two routes.

I vote for a Continental origin. My research suggests two pathways into the British Isles for the Goidel (Gael or Féni), which does house R-U152 and R-L21.

1. Migration to Ireland from northern Spain or southern France,

2. Migration from Central Europe (Germany) into the British Isles (England, Wales, Ireland, and Scotland)

I state in a previous post at this forum entitled R1b1c10 (S28+) in Ireland posted 4 November 2007 that "it is possible these waves of migration were all Germanic in origin." Granted that post is dated before the discovery of R-L21 and in response to the so-called Viking origin of R-U152 proposed at that time, however, it is still my hypothesis that these migrations came out of Central Italy to Central Europe (Germany/France) then proceeded into the British Isles via the above two routes.

I'm thinking your #2 hypothesis above is the correct one. Thus far, Iberia has zero L21+. Of course, that could change, and do I expect there to be some L21+ there, but probably not much.

So, if I understand correctly, Gael would be an alteration of Goi(d)el . I am very surprised that such records exist. I had never heard of the Goidels. Among the criticisms to such a rather recent migration will be the relatively high level of L21 in Ireland as it seems. So, no other population in this isle before ? Or, the original population was eliminated ?I still remenber that the high level of "R1b" as it was called in Ireland and Basque area was one of the big question when I discover this field. I would say, it still is ; even if the groups are now more precise.

From my understanding, Gael comes from the word Gaelic. And yes, Irish R1b is still the unanswered question it was at the beginning of this century. Where are the professional studies for R? Why did the professional genetic community abdicate its role and leave this to the amateur genetic community to solve?

R1b L21+ are the oldest R1b inhabitants of Britain, entering the Isles from Europe before most of the other clades? This seems to be suggested by the large amounts of L21+ in the west of the British Isles today. There appear to be no later, large scale invasions to contradict that L21+ got to Ireland first before the other R1b clades.

Was there a split or fragmentation within the original R1b 'clan' somewhere in Europe in Neolithic or Bronze Age times? Did it happen within the space of a few centuries resulting in different, but related, tribes (U152, U106, L21+/- etc.)

Sometime shortly after this fragmentation the bulk of L21+ headed across the channel to Britain.

So is L21- a more recent (but older in age) continental arrival to Britain? So far it is found more frequently on the eastern side of Great Britain in areas of migration age historical settlement.

Maybe L21- milled around in Europe for some centuries, eventually crossing the sea to join their L21+ British cousins in early medieval times, traveling with the Anglo-Saxon's, then the Vikings, then later the Normans?

So, if I understand correctly, Gael would be an alteration of Goi(d)el . I am very surprised that such records exist. I had never heard of the Goidels. .....

For those who choose to believe, we know exactly where the Gaels come from.

Here is a quote describing the story:"The language they spoke, Goidelic was named after their ancestor Goidel Glas. According to the Christian scribes he was the son of Niul son of Fenius Farsaid and Scota daughter of an earlier Egyptian pharaoh (not Mil's wife). Fenius Farsaid was the son of Bathath, son of Magog, son of Japheth and son of Noah. The monks liked to neatly connect everything back to the Flood. According to the Irish Book of Invasions he was born in Egypt to where his father Niul had emigrated and married Scota. Goidel was instructed in languages by his grandfather Fenius who then migrated to the Russian Steppes in the region known as Scythia where he became a great king. "

BTW, the same applies to the Brits, their exact origin an migration under the leadership of "Brutus" has been written down for centuries in a legendary form.

Just to be sure no one misunderstands; I don't ascribe to the legends, but I think they should not be totally discarded. There may be a legitimate origination information, albeit unconfirmable, derived from the legends.

So, if I understand correctly, Gael would be an alteration of Goi(d)el . I am very surprised that such records exist. I had never heard of the Goidels. .....

For those who choose to believe, we know exactly where the Gaels come from.

Here is a quote describing the story:"The language they spoke, Goidelic was named after their ancestor Goidel Glas. According to the Christian scribes he was the son of Niul son of Fenius Farsaid and Scota daughter of an earlier Egyptian pharaoh (not Mil's wife). Fenius Farsaid was the son of Bathath, son of Magog, son of Japheth and son of Noah. The monks liked to neatly connect everything back to the Flood. According to the Irish Book of Invasions he was born in Egypt to where his father Niul had emigrated and married Scota. Goidel was instructed in languages by his grandfather Fenius who then migrated to the Russian Steppes in the region known as Scythia where he became a great king. "

BTW, the same applies to the Brits, their exact origin an migration under the leadership of "Brutus" has been written down for centuries in a legendary form.

Just to be sure no one misunderstands; I don't ascribe to the legends, but I think they should not be totally discarded. There may be a legitimate origination information, albeit unconfirmable, derived from the legends.

I think the data we currently have, early as it is, favors a migration similar to the migration of Brutus. If I remember correctly this was by sea; out of the Med, around Iberia and up the coast of Gaul. He delayed in western Gaul and elsewhere briefly and then settled in Britain. He and his decedents made many excursions back to the continent and left some remnants there but returned to Britain. The continental migration of U152+ is very evident. It appears to be a different pattern to me.

I think the data we currently have, early as it is, favors a migration similar to the migration of Brutus. If I remember correctly this was by sea; out of the Med, around Iberia and up the coast of Gaul. He delayed in western Gaul and elsewhere briefly and then settled in Britain. He and his decedents made many excursions back to the continent and left some remnants there but returned to Britain. The continental migration of U152+ is very evident. It appears to be a different pattern to me.

You could be right, but remember, testing for U152 has been around since 2005. It took awhile for all those continental results to show up.

I contacted Lucotte again. I am trying to get him test all his samples collected in France in a join publication with those doing these "genome-wide" studies. All they need is to include the 23andME set of Y SNPs and make good use of this wide sampling from France. Right now it looks like a dream , I know, but I'll try this dream comes true.

You will not be surprised to learn that a certain person on another forum has proclaimed that anyone who has taken Statistics 101 can see that L21 originated in Britain, and that any continental results are descendants of slaves etc. I have been criticised there for suggesting that we should wait for more L21 results on the continent before jumping to conclusions.Personally, I suspect it may well have a northwest continental origin, but I do think it is way to early to start drawing any firm conclusions.

You will not be surprised to learn that a certain person on another forum has proclaimed that anyone who has taken Statistics 101 can see that L21 originated in Britain, and that any continental results are descendants of slaves etc. I have been criticised there for suggesting that we should wait for more L21 results on the continent before jumping to conclusions.Personally, I suspect it may well have a northwest continental origin, but I do think it is way to early to start drawing any firm conclusions.

You're right, I'm not surprised.

What would we do if that person ever came down on the side that made sense?

Remember, British L21- is R-P312*. Some of it may predate the arrival of L21+ in Britain, and some of it could have come later.

L21 is not old enough to have arrived in Britain when those islands were empty.

That leaves the question of where did L21- R-312* vanish if it was in Ireland along with, or before, L21+?

I realize there's not much data to go on yet, but the high frequency of L21+ in Ireland is striking at the moment when compared with England which looks 50/50.

That's assuming Irish L21+ holds up at its present rate.

A subclade does not have to arrive in a place first in order to be the most populous subclade there.

My guess is there is a lot of R1b1b2 in California, Oregon, and Washington now, but it wasn't there first.

? I wasn't suggesting 'there is more there today, therefore they originated there'.

Ireland looks to have a lot of L21+. Only legends tell us of the Milesian/Goidelic passenger lists, but there might be something to the old stories. I think the latest great legendary invasion of Ireland was in the 1st or 2nd century BC by the Goidels/Milesians. There seem to be some L21+ recently appearing in France. O' Rahilly speculates the Q-Celtic Goidels/Milesians originated in SE Gaul in the Alps. He says they migrated to the west coast no later than 120BC, or at least before 50BC when the rest of Gaul was subjected to Roman rule.

Also the Eoganacht similarly arrived some time between 325-50BC. They have been identified, through surname analysis, as likely members of the South Irish R1b cluster. Early days, but one possible member of this cluster has tested L21-.

Apparently more South Irish R1b cluster results are due in soon. There's some evidence they thought themselves distinct from the Erainn, being possibly a Belgic tribe, the Eburones described by Caesar as being 'Germans on this side of the Rhine.'

There are also results appearing for the R1b NS cluster. They are L21- and seem to emerge from Germany to spread all round Europe, including Britain and Spain:

But of what we have of continental L21 results - just 26, admittedly - 35% is L21+. For nine L21+ men to pop up on the Continent merely by chance among the first 26 results, if L21+ is not fairly common there, strikes me as unlikely. And 35% seems too high to account for by chalking L21 up to a British Isles origin.

Another thing to remember is that continental total is for the entire European Continent exclusive of the British Isles, and that includes places like Iberia, which seems practically devoid of L21, whereas France seems to have British Isles levels of L21+ and Germany exceeds 40%.

I'm still trying to maintain an open mind at this early stage, but taking Britain as a whole in context with northern Europe (perhaps using the Prime Meridian as a dividing line), the distribution trend is L21+ mostly west of the line, L21- mostly east (except for northern Spain).

Another interesting thing, a recent post by Tim Janzen on Rootsweb DNA list mentioned TMRCA dates for L21+ . His dates suggest that L21+ in England and Wales is younger than in Ireland/Scotland.