The following is a transcript of the discussion between Younus AlGohar, Steve Bell and Hugh Reilly at the ThatChannel.com HQ.

Hugh Reilly (H): Hey everybody, it is me, Hugh, with Liquid Lunch. This is actually a surprise get-together today. We have HH Younus AlGohar and Steve Bell from the Messiah Foundation UK. You guys were going to go to Edmonton – which is a real journey from Toronto, since you were going to drive there – but I heard the weather was bad and it is really no fun driving the snow.

It is great to have you here. We had the [Unitarian Spiritualism] event on October 29th at the Steelworkers Hall. Really, I guess the message that you are bringing is unitarian spirituality: we’re all human beings and we have to learn to get along with one another and that’s what we are trying to do.

Let’s talk about what true spirituality is.

Who makes a good spiritual leader?

Steve Bell (S): True spirituality is regarding the spirits. It is to do with the spirits. His Holiness Younus AlGohar quite clearly says that we have seven souls in our body. And spirituality is all about reawakening those souls. For those souls, they can visit their respective realms once they have been regenerated with divine energy.

Not all the souls are positive; they all have different functions. We very clearly have a negative soul in us; when we are born, this negative soul is active which is why we find it so easy to hate; negatively comes very easily to human beings. The positive, loving side, takes a bit of work.

His Holiness often says, ‘It is very easy to hate and you don’t need to learn how to hate. But to learn to love, you have to make a bit of effort.’

You always have to tell a child to share a toy. It is quite in the nature to be negative.

True spirituality is reawakening those spirits and souls. [The way] is not by reading books or going to worship places. The only way you can reawaken those souls is through a true spiritual master. A true spiritual master will reawaken your souls for you. It is not just a pipe dream; you can feel the presence in your heart. After some time, you can feel yourself becoming a better, more loving, human being.

A true Spiritual Master is somebody that can unlock that door and open your heart and souls.

H: You got me curious: what are the seven souls? You mentioned they’re not all positive and there are some negative ones in there.

S: The [Spiritual Heart] is the key to connect with God. Once the heart reawakens, that is how you can communicate with God.

We’re not against any religion, as we have said many times before. But we are not in the business of worshipping God; our business is loving God.

We teach people how they can love God through the connection of their heart. So that’s the main soul [that we focus on]. The other souls have different functions in the breast; they also need divine energy to do what they’re supposed to do.

Once that first step has been taken and they’re reawakened, then they know exactly what they’re supposed to do.

The heart was given to us to love God. It doesn’t need to be taught that. Our spiritual master, His Divine Eminence Gohar Shahi, says it beautifully that once that heart awakens, it is like a chick waking up. You don’t have to teach that chick how to chirp. It already knows how to do it.

Once your heart reawakens, it already knows how to worship God because that’s what it was there for. You feel so joyful after you have that [Opening of the Spiritual Heart].

H: You’ve had that experience?

S: Yes!

As we’ve mentioned before about love, once you have God’s love inside your heart, then you start to see everybody else as having that same love of God. You cannot hate that person. You feel unification, which is what we are talking about.

S: There were other people who didn’t want to come up [to the stage] but they wanted a bit of a private session [for the Opening of the Spiritual Heart]. They took the name Allah Hu. It is about getting that name into the heart; it doesn’t matter what you use to call upon God because once [the name of your preference] enters the heart, that is what does all the work. They felt straight away their heart beating and warmth in their heart. Quite a few people took that on [the day of the Unitarian Spiritualism programme].

H: A lot of people talk about spirituality. What is the importance of spirituality in religions?

Younus AlGohar (Y): As far as my understanding is concerned, I see religion as a physical exercise of different rituals. You worship God with your body. Whereas spirituality is about enlightenment of the souls, strengthening them, making a spiritual journey, arriving at a destination in the ethereal world (which is not this phenomenal world).

It is interesting how the Gospel of Thomas talks about the Kingdom of God that Jesus promises to his disciples. I want Brother Steve to comment on what Jesus [meant] when he said, ‘I will take you to a world which eyes have ever dreamt of and no hearts have every desired.’

H: That’s interesting because the Gospel of Thomas is not part of Bible, but they call it the apocryphal text. Steve, are you familiar with this?

S: Yes, I’m very familiar with this. It talks about love and spirituality which is not always what the church wants us to learn. They’re very much into dogmas.

H: I guess Constantine wanted that book buried, right?

S: Right. Once you have that divine energy, when you read such scriptures, you have to have more of an understanding of it. Jesus did say to his followers, ‘I promise you a kingdom that no eye has seen, and no ear has heard of.’

If you really look into that and think about it, there were prophets before: Abraham and Moses came and spoke about God’s kingdom and told people how to get to God’s kingdom.

Jesus, when he came, he told them, ‘It is a place you’ve never heard of or seen.’

He was talking about his own kingdom. Another very important work we do is showing people the path to Jesus through this [Opening of the Spiritual Heart]. Jesus is actually here and he is gathering his people. He is letting their souls mingle with his. Again, it is not a worship, it is love – a connection.

H: That is an interesting distinction: you’re not worshipping, you’re loving. Arguably, I guess this is what the message of Jesus was.

S: We were in Mexico City last week. There were well over 800 people who are Catholics or were Catholics (but it never really leaves you, does it?). When we said that, there was a huge relief and cheer that we were talking about making the heart the worship place and that you don’t have to go to churches. We [told them], ‘We are not going to show you pictures of Jesus suffering on the cross. We are going to show you the true image of Jesus – the live image of Jesus.’

I think this is what people want to hear. I think they’re a bit fed up.

Terrorism

H: These days, it seems to me that people are possibly fed up with their religions – but they’re also possibly concerned about the directions things are headed in the world. We’ve got terrorism – Islamic and otherwise.

Y: But the thing is, do we not need to find out: what could be the reason why people are fed up with their religions?

H: Yeah!

Y: And then why [this is happening to] a religion like Islam, which has been around for almost 15 centuries and produced wonderful spiritual leaders like Rumi, Shirazi, Hafiz and all these great Sufis who only talked about love and brotherhood. They never promoted hatred; they mingled with followers of every religion and never talked about exclusion. Then suddenly, we have this in front of us where people are saying, ‘Allahu Akbar!’ and there is a bomb blast.

This is scary. Some people will jump to conclusions that Islam is teaching all this hatred. Some others have reservations and some others are confused. But the thing is: how, having served humanity for the past 14 centuries, has Islam been dragged to a position where people don’t want to hear the world, Islam?

To my understanding, it happens when spirituality is taken off religion – when people lose connection with God. When people do not know how to revive the human instincts and human characteristics in them that, of course, are adhered to the souls and spirits, not to the body. The body is just a container.

If the soul inside the body is pure, the body will act pure.

If the soul inside the body is impure, then obviously these things will happen. This is the case with every single religion today. Since they divorced spirituality from the religions, religions have lost their systems of spiritual enlightenment.

We need to understand that spirituality is the core of every religion.

When spirituality is separated from a religion, what is happening in the name of Islam right now is what will happen.

S: We recognise that this battle that is going on is not between Christians and Muslims; it is about love and hate. There were two cases in the news just last week: Jihadi Jack and the White Widow. I mean, they’re saying that they’re being attracted to Islam, but they’re not being attracted to the loving, tolerant teachings of Sufism. They’re being attracted to the hardline, hateful Wahhabis. They’re being attracted to hate; they’re not being attracted to love.

We’re building on the love side and telling people, ‘This is a big cover-up. This is not about religion. This is about the great divide on the end of love and hate.’

H: Sometimes I think somebody has got an agenda to just divide people. I know you travel the world trying to spread the message of love and spirituality. The kind of hate you just mentioned where people do commit acts of terrorism or are about to hurt other people – how can you root that out?

Y: We can only do something partially. For example, the youth who haven’t been yet affected by radicalisation, we can give them the right interpretation of their religion. We can tell them, ‘No, [the meaning of the holy text that the extremists give you is not true]. This is not what it means.’

We need to nip the devil in the bud. When they have already been radicalised, then you can’t root that out from their lives. They’re gone, they’re history. They’ll do what they want to do.

In order to be able to have a good society in the future, we need to work on the youth, not these people who have already been indoctrinated into hatred. Nothing can be done about them, honestly.

H: I agree with that. You try to reach young people, but then you may not reach everybody. Maybe some of those people [you influence] will reach such people.

Y: Of course. But we should do whatever we can do. Whatever is humanly possible.

H: Yeah. We are very fortunate, we live in prosperous, Western countries. But some people, even though they have all the luxuries of life, they are lacking inner peace. Is there anything we can do about that?

Inner Peace

S: Inner peace is all to do with the restlessness of the heart and souls. The whole purpose of coming in this world, we say, is that you should reconnect your souls with God.

You should manage to reawaken your souls. Everybody in their life gets the chance to do that. It is about grabbing that chance. Once that energy enters your heart, then the restlessness goes.

You can see so many people converting from one religion to another. We spoke about the importance of religions [during the programme]. Do we need religions? Another problem is that when people do leave religions, they can join some self-concocted following. We’ve travelled quite a lot to mind, body and soul expos. The things that you see there are just unbelievable. You know, hair reading, palm reading, etc.

H: I guess that won’t work for everybody!

S: Yeah, it won’t work for everybody. Chakras is another word [for spirits]. They talk about balancing the chakras. They do all sorts of things to balance these chakras and it can work temporarily. There is energy everywhere, so you’ll feel some temporary energy but it is not serving that purpose. That is why people are still going to be restless; they will be going for more top-ups of these sessions.

It is not just about balancing the chakras. They need to be reawakened and energised with divine energy. Then, people won’t be going back to these places and spending their hard-earned money. Spirituality is free; it is from God.

You shouldn’t have to pay money to connect yourself to God.

H: For people watching this right now, what would you advise them to do to deal with these issues? I really think that people do have a need for some kind of connection to the divine. If they don’t get that, you have got to find an outlet somehow – so what do you recommend?

S: To connect to God, you have to find a spiritual master – somebody who has got power and authority. You can’t just do it by reading books; you could watch somebody fly a plane your whole life [but] it won’t allow you to fly that plane. Similarly, you need somebody how to teach you how to reawaken your heart and souls. You need a divine, spiritual master who will connect you with God and reawaken your souls.

So you can go on there. Every evening at 10 PM GMT, His Holiness does speeches. He explains further teachings of spirituality. He teaches the youth [and started an initiative known as Young Sufis of Great Britain]. He will answer any questions submitted there. The beauty of this is that you don’t have to watch it live; you can check them out anytime on YouTube.

You can go to the website and look at the true images of HDE Gohar Shahi and Jesus Christ. You can just ask for your heart to be opened.

Deradicalisation

Y: I want to say something.

I reflect on this point: if God really wanted us to kill people, and this is how we will make him happy, then by doing this, everybody will be dead. Who will go into the temples and mosques? This is so silly.

[Some individuals] claim to adhere to some religion and they don’t practise or understand that religion, yet somehow, they want to sacrifice their lives and claim others’ lives. What is the driving force? What is the benefit of doing this? This is crazy. It doesn’t make sense to me.

H: No, it doesn’t make sense. But it still happens. What would you do about it though?

Y: I really am dazzled and boggled. I do not know how to go about it. I can only reach out to the youth and tell them, ‘Look this is not exactly what God wants from you. You want to love everybody and respect everybody.’

If you think God wants you to kill everybody, I don’t think I should believe in such a God.

H: We’re talking about a universal spirituality, in a sense. As a counter-action to a religion or religious institution that’s gotten into a state where they’re preaching a misguiding philosophy of hate (that sometimes happen in religions where they’ve gotten that negative message). It also seems to me today that there seems to be a growing sense of atheism. Maybe more in the West than elsewhere.

Y: What do you expect from people when they practise a religion and they learn hatred – and they’re killing people in the name of God? This is what will happen: people will become atheists, obviously. People who are law-abiding citizens – who want peace in their lives and who don’t want hatred – they will think, ‘This crap is coming from God. We’re better off without not having God in our lives.’ This is why people are becoming atheists every day. I don’t blame them.

Reaching Out to Atheists

H: The message of universal spirituality – is that a message that can get through to atheists?

Y: If you are eating a rotten banana and your stomach is upset, the best possible solution that I can think of is to give you another fresh banana and tell you, ‘That one is going to make you ill. So take this banana [instead].’

If one philosophy of a religion is messed up and it has been adulterated on a larger scale where you can’t fix it, you better introduce a new philosophy: a philosophy of spirituality which can benefit you immediately.

H: Let’s imagine for a second here that we are talking to an atheist. What message would you give that person?

Y: ‘Awaken your soul.’ Because you are not your body. You are more your soul. In order to reap the benefits of having a soul in your body, you need to enlighten your soul so that you can have all the power in you which is provided by your soul.

So to all the individuals who practise atheism, who do not believe in God: forget about believing in God. I want you to believe in yourself and be at your optimum. In order to be at your optimum, you need to at least revive your spiritual characteristics. That’s all. Simple.

Spiritual Healing

H: We hear stories of people who are healed through their faith, spirituality or religion – even through divine energy. Can you talk a little bit about healing with divine energy?

S: As we said, negative energy is within us. We’re drawing in negative energies through everyday life – watching the television or even breathing the air. Once that negative energy attacks the cells, it causes whatever illness that you have. Even if it is an illness that is incurable medically, once the positive energy enters your veins, then that positive energy negates all the negative out. It will go straight into your blood system and become a healing process. Your heart will just generate divine energy continuously, even when you are sleeping. Throughout the whole day, you will be given this positive energy that just surrounds your body.

We’ve been very successful in spiritual healing.

H: Even with people that are, maybe, near the end? A fatal diagnosis?

S: Well, you’ve met Mir Ali quite a few times now. He was in quite a bad way in the UK. I think you’d be very surprised to see how he is now. We’ve had many people in these expos [who we healed].

A man, Joseph, at the New York Expo, was diagnosed with HIV. We did quite a lot of extensive healing on him. I returned to New York some months later and we did some more healing on him. The next time we saw him a year afterwards, he said he had the all-clear. That was quite remarkable.

There has been quite a lot of in Mexico queuing up to receive spiritual healing. Many hundreds of people came for healing in Mexico. People do recognise spiritual healing. Definitely for atheists, if they have tried God in other ways and it hasn’t worked for them, and they have given up on God – then why not try this? It is free! If you are taking medicine, you don’t know who made it, but you take it because you think it will work.

So we’re saying, ‘Just try it. Try another path. If you don’t believe the way to connect yourself to God was a religion, then try spirituality.’

H: People can go to the website and get the [Opening of the Spiritual Heart] through the website. How long are you in town for?

Y: We’ll be here another few days and then we will go back home to the UK.

AlRa TV

H: So you have AlRa TV, which I know that you use to reach out [to people]. One of the things that you are doing that I am aware of is helping to deradicalise Islamic youth in the UK and elsewhere. What other kind of messages are you trying to get out through AlRa TV?

Y: This is a very hot issue right now. Every night when I speak at 10 PM UK time, people from all over the world send in their questions about the right interpretation [of their religion]. It is not just Muslims. They come from different religions.

H: Because this is a universal message.

Y: Yes. I reply to them in details. Most of these people are satisfied and then they change their ways. Many people, having listened to my lectures, have sort of shunned their radicalised intentions. They were regretting and saying that only God knows how they got into this [nonsense].

They are very much part of this love and peace movement now. So it is working. People from as far as Australia, Asian countries like Sri Lanka, Indian, Bangladesh and even Middle Eastern countries like Saudi Arabia [are watching my videos]. A lot of young people between 17-25 years of age come to listen to my lectures from Saudi Arabia. The good thing is they’re changing and they’re really happy. They say that they never heard such a wonderful interpretation of their religion before. All they heard was aggression, revenge, taking over the world and putting up the flag [of Islam] in Washington DC – and [we told them], ‘No, it is not all about that, my friends!’

H: I’ve met some great people from Saudi Arabia and a couple of them were actually working here at the station. They were awesome.

Y: Good people are everywhere.

H: Exactly! And the stereotypes we hear only cause us to really misunderstand people. People are people no matter where they come from.

Y: There are more good people.

Good people have outnumbered bad people. But the thing is, good people are quiet and the bad people are noisy.

All we hear is the noise so we think, ‘Oh, the world is corrupt; everybody is bad.’ Every bad person is making noise and every good person is sitting quietly.

H: It only takes one bad apple to spoil a whole bunch.

Y: We need to root out that bad apple out!

H: You’re doing the speech every day. So you must always be writing and getting prepared.

Y: No, I don’t do it.

H: So it’s all spontaneous?

Y: It is intuitional and inspirational.

H: So do you know what your next topic will be?

Y: I don’t know, it depends on people. Whatever people ask, I just open my mouth and I speak, honestly.

H: It is probably divinely [inspired].

Y: I don’t know how it happens and where it comes from, but it happens. I speak and speak and they hear it.

H: It was great to have you here always! It has been great to have this conversation. I hope you have a great trip back to the UK and all the best with AlRa TV!

Hugh: So, we are going to do a second interview now and change the topics up a little bit. We are going to be talking about society, unification and peace. The last interview was about some of the problem so we’re gonna hopefully get to some of the solutions in this conversation.

Hildegard: Yes, and we seem to have the perfect magazine at hand called ‘Messiah Herald: Become the Master of Your Own Being’ and maybe I was jumping the gun a little bit half an hour ago but that, I think, really, is the hot topic today. Steve, talk to us about the magazine and the purpose behind it.

Steve: So, this is a monthly magazine that we issue and it is actually being spread all over the world now. And the beauty of it is because His Holiness Gohar Shahi has made spirituality accessible to everybody in this world. We see the increase in the material world, upgrades in technologies, this is an upgrade in spirituality. It makes it accessible to everybody. There is even a step in this month’s one where people can just download this from MessiahHerald.com or get it from the guise here or come to any one of our places and get this.

Page 12 has an actual step-by-step guide, how you can reawaken your heart. It is as simple as that. A 3 step guide that anybody can do. Doesn’t matter what religion or what faith you are. We have seen in the history that people have had to go away on missions, they have had to go sit around gurus, it is just not acceptable now. It is not possible that people can do this. All I heard of spirituality before is like the George Harrison – [inaudible] – the Beatles; you’ve got money, you’ve got time, you can go off and go to these retreats. It’s just not possible these days. So, His Holiness has beautifully made it accessible for all. I thoroughly recommend this magazine to all the viewers. As you said, it mentions about conquering yourself, self-awareness, knowing yourself to know God.

Hugh: I noticed on the cover of that one it says ‘Is the Promised Messiah Already Here?’

YAG: That is the question.

Hugh: What’s the answer?

YAG: Let’s find out.

Hildegard: Before we go there, if I just may. I understand you have a lot of workshops and you give lectures online. Here on this book it actually says ‘broadcast live, everyday at 10PM UK time’, tell me a little bit about how that works.

Steve: Yeah, 10PM UK time, His Holiness gives us that slot just teaching about love and spirituality. As you saw on Saturday, very up-to-date information, current news, current situations. And He thoroughly welcomes anybody to ask any questions. They can log on and ask questions and they will always be answered.

Hildegard: So, individuals can type into the chat and say ‘here, this is my issue, I would like your opinion’?

Steve: Certainly can and they do everyday.

Hildegard: This is like, really hands on.

Steve: This is what we need. This is a worldwide – we want everybody in the world to know about it so the internet is the perfect vehicle [for it].

Hildegard: Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about the coming of the Messiah. Because many religions have claimed this for thousands of years and they are always those who say nothing happens, or ‘2012 the world will end’, obviously nothing happened. [Inaudible] in the invisible world lots have happened. So, His Holiness, what is your take on the coming of the Messiah?

YAG: Messiah is related to the Jewish religion. It is the Messianic thought; there will be a Messiah. There is a lot of conflict on the word ‘Messiah’ because Christians think Jesus is Messiah and people from Judaism think there is another Messiah. And there was a problem when Jesus was arrested by the Romans, the Jewish scholars complained that Jesus calls himself Messiah, ask him who is he?

So, there is a concept of a Messianic figure in almost every religion. Hindus have this belief that there will a Messiah, a type of saviour, then Muslims have the same belief that there will be a saviour, according to their faith. And then, we have the Sikh community, they also have the same concept. So, this concept of an End Time personality, who, according to every religion will strengthen the religions. If it is a Hindu Messiah he will strengthen the Hindu religion and the followers of Hinduism. And Jewish concept tells us that the Jewish Messiah will acquire the Promised Land for them and strengthen the Jewish community. The Muslims also have the same concept of the End Times saviour.

Hugh: I am wondering, in a sense, if you have a concept of a Messiah – even if it is an alien Messiah, Hildegard –

Hildegard: That’s another discussion altogether.

Hugh: I think it’s the same discussion in respect that if we are expecting a Messiah to come and save us from our plight then, in a sense, we are putting our faith in an external factor versus taking responsibility ourselves for the situation we find ourselves in and doing something about it.

YAG: Actually, I got your point but the thing is it is not people who have concocted this concept of Messiah. If we had made up this story that we need somebody from extra-terrestrial; space, we are in that case putting our faith to external sources. But it is the thought which is coming from religions. Nobody has made up the thought, it is coming from religions. People who believe in religions they have this concept. People who are secular, do not believe in any religions, they are not waiting for any Messiah. So, it is a religious concept.

Hildegard: However, you are non-religious? The Messiah Foundation embraces all religions, correct? So, you are not looking for followers, you are non-religious. So, some people say, ‘Well, they are just preaching another Messiah; with all due respect we don’t need that’. We need somebody that helps us how to do our lives better.

YAG: That’s what we are doing.

Hildegard: So, that is in essence the mission. Where does the Messiah fit in? Are you helping me find the Messiah within myself, is the next question?

YAG: Oh my gosh, if somebody is not feeling well and I go there and give them medicine, and I heal them and everything, but they tell me, ‘Don’t talk about the doctor’, alright let’s not talk about the doctor. But, do you know what does a doctor do? That’s exactly what I am doing: giving you medicine, telling you your ailments, giving you medicine and healing you. So, the job of the Messiah is to spread love, unify the entire human race. And this exactly what we need to do.

Okay, let’s forget about the Messiah, let’s do the job if you want to put it that way. Spreading love.

Hildegard: So, correct me if I am wrong, the Messiah is just giving us a whole new boost of love so it is easier for the individual to transcend – we spoke about hate and anger before, I don’t want to go there anymore – but that is what the Messiah does?

YAG: To be honest with you ‘Messiah’ is just a title. It is the Divine Energy which is coming in the guise of the Messiah. You can say the Divine Manifestation. The manifestation or that Super Man behind the clouds. If he doesn’t want to show us His face, he has taken a guise of somebody called Messiah. But we shouldn’t be concerned about the personality, we should be concerned about our own interest. And our interest is to become enlightened and powerful and to have peace in our heart and all the glory of our persona. That’s all.

Hildegard: So, let’s talk about the personal transformation in those who – I understand you have travelled extensively around the world, you go to conferences, do many interviews, you have your online workshops and discussions. What are some of the experience people have shared who had been activated, had their hearts opened to love?

YAG: What I feel every time I visit a country, some of these people have no knowledge about their [respective] field, and some people, the knowledge they have is dangerous. So, lack of knowledge. They are not properly informed. The discerning knowledge which can put their mind right, the knowledge which can fix their heart, that knowledge is lacking in every field. We are helping people to have the knowledge with which they can enlighten themselves and find who they really are. We are not concerned about Messiah, forget about Messiah. If Messiah comes and he doesn’t benefit me, I am not waiting for such a Messiah. If Messiah comes and he doesn’t benefit my soul, if he doesn’t improve the quality of my life, I shouldn’t be waiting for such a Messiah.

If Messiah just comes for his own personal interest, let him come. I am not bothered. I am only bothered about my personal quest which is exploring myself. Making the quality of my life better and if this is done from any angle, from any source, from any religion or any secular school of thought, or from any person then that person is very close to my heart. Even if that person is not Messiah. We are concerned about the philosophy, the ideology of love and peace not the person who may be dispensing the ideology of love and peace.

Hildegard: Well, as it appears we have been living in the ideology where we are separate from one another and focus on our separateness, rather than our togetherness, our unity, we are one organism.

YAG: It’s time now that we travel from being separate to togetherness. It is time now for unification. Because together we are powerful, divided we are estranged.

Hildegard: I would like to use the analogy of a computer network. The computer network out there is not really helpful to me unless my hard drive finds a way to connect to it, right? So, can you give us a specific example of what you are teaching? Your online courses or when you are doing your talks and travels. What are some of the steps our audience could practise? Like we talk about seeing a doctor, you want to have some idea of what he can do: change your diet, drink more water, whatever the doctor may recommend. Do you have any recommendations?

YAG: Well, what I do is multicultural and multidimensional. There are many problems that I am dealing with at a time. For example, when I speak everyday at 10PM UK time, I am live on Facebook, Periscope and YouTube. So, what happens is, people from all over the world they ask me questions on YouTube Live Chat and I answer these questions. Some of the questions are about their life, some of those questions are about the authenticity of the religions and they ask me which religion is better. They ask me about their religion, what they are doing as a religious person if it’s okay. So, I give them my understanding and references from their books and I tell them whether or not they are right or wrong.

So, in a way I am dealing with different sorts of cases. The nature of these cases is different, everybody is coming from a perspective of life and different religions. But I am happy when their questions are answered and I see a ray of hope on their faces, it satisfies me and I tell myself that I am really making a contribution towards forming a better society in this world.

Hildegard: You mentioned dimensions. What is your take on dimensions? For there are those who say they simultaneously exist on many different dimensional world at once. People who have visions or see elves or tree-creatures or different life forms, or aliens. What is your take on what are dimensions? Because we are so, as you mentioned earlier, stuck on the third dimension. This is what it is all about and some people say no, after a near-death experience we know that consciousness moves on, I don’t really die, the body may die but like if I take off my grey sweater, I continue living.

YAG: You are right. There is no such thing as fuller death. This is a journey. We are here for a specific reason and the body that we are contained in, if you call this death when the body perishes, we can call it death but then again this body is not real you. The real you is your spirit and that spirit does not know death. We are constantly travelling and going through evolution: spiritual evolution, geographical evolution and celestial evolution. And like the dimension that you were talking about. We have 7 souls inside our body and the dimension that you will be more focused on depends on what soul are you aligned with concurrently.

If you are aligned with the soul which rests on the right side of our bosom, it will take us to a different realm. Maybe somebody else is aligned with another soul so his or her dimension will be totally different.

After you have explored all your realities and you have aligned with all your souls, and you have been to all the celestial realms, then comes You: a fuller, dimensional person who knows everything. And then, that person will come to the divine dimension, which is the dimension of God.

Hildegard: So, indeed, there is hope. The worst that can happen people lose their body, terrorism or no terrorism, and we can work on the true self by becoming spiritually more conscious and therefore we can have whatever happens outside ripple, like water off a duck’s back.

YAG: But if you lose your body before your time you will be deprived of obtaining this spiritual enlightenment in the lifetime you are given to [obtain it]. If you die before your time then whatever you were supposed to obtain in this world in that frame of time, you won’t obtain it. So, we must not lose our life, we must not just throw our life away to any reason.

Hildegard: And that is unfortunately very much the case today. When you hear of young people committing suicide, en masse almost, we have such tragic stories here and I know they exist in other places as well. What do you attribute that to? And I know you work with young people, please elaborate a little bit.

YAG: They have many, many different issues. Sometimes, our desires, for example, are good. For example, I don’t have a car and I want to buy a car, this is a desire but if I do buy a car it will improve my life. Okay, that’s good. Let him go have a car. Now, if what you desire is not good for you and it is really dangerous for you then you are in pursuit of that desire, somebody who is honest with you should stop you from there. Right? So, we have many different desires and when the desires are not fulfilled they commit suicide. So, there are different reasons for suicide.

Hildegard: Do you think the religions were designed to educate us on a spiritual path and have they done a good job of it? What’s you opinion on it?

YAG: Religion were designed to help people, but only those who were in the Primordial Time and chose to have a pure life and those who wanted the luxuries of the world, religions are not for them. Number 2- There is not one religion, which was designed by God, to suit everybody in the world. All these religions were designed to cater for the needs of one particular group of people.

For example, Islam was created for the spiritual needs of the people who inhabited the Arabian Peninsula. This is why strict religious laws were implemented; if you are [caught] stealing they chop your hands off. But if you do the same in USA or Canada or UK, this is barbaric. But for them, because of their temperament – people have different temperaments everywhere. So, not even one religion is universal, they are regional.

Hugh: But here we are now and we still have those religions and now with the world getting smaller and people are moving all over the world; different cultures living side-by-side with each other, you know, these religions are beginning to rub up against each other –

YAG: That’s why these religions are creating problems now.

Hugh: Yeah, exactly. So, now to get from here though, because many people feel very strongly about their religions. And you know sometimes I think there is nothing harder than a worldview for people to change. People are so invested at the way they look at the world, right? So, for somebody to shatter that for them it’s very unsettling. That’s what I think causes people to get into a terrorist mindset or to become radicalised. So, here we are in this world. We are trying to get into unification. Certainly, we are trying to get to a place where people can live peacefully alongside one another. How do we do that? How do we overcome this religious mindset that some people have?

YAG: These people who practise religion they practise it very strictly, they become shortsighted. They are like the frog of the well; they do not know what is outside the well. You cannot educate them. Every single person who practises a religion becomes intolerant. That person thinks only he or she is right people of other religions are wrong. There is no time for religion. You cannot change them.

Hugh: One of the things that disturbs me is that the terrorist incidents in Europe where people are starting to become less tolerant – this is my concern, I hope I am wrong actually – but I have seen it here in Toronto too where everybody has become a little bit radicalised. People are saying, you know, we can’t have Muslims in the country. There are actually some people saying that. And not willing to engage in a debate because they feel that engaging in a debate would be fruitless. So, my concern is that instead of people becoming more tolerant or more open to working alongside one another as these incidents happen the people of all cultures, of all backgrounds, start to become isolationists in their thinking; less willing to even think about having a conversation.

YAG: I mean, what is happening right now and the tolerance you are talking about where people are beginning to have less tolerance, I think that is pretty much natural. If I live in my house alone with my children and then we have visitors and they stay there for 2-3 months. One day I will feel that my privacy is being invaded and I will start to feel frustrated. Actually, this is what is happening now in Canada. So many refugees are now coming and you feel that your values and freedom is being put on the stake and your way of life is now being jeopardised, and this integration and a lot of foreigners who are naive to this culture and your religious or secular values are pouring into your country. Perhaps, this is fear which is coming up as intolerance. The government should do something about it. They should only take as many refugees as your nation –

Hugh: I agree, but I don’t know if we can trust the governments to do the right thing. As I said, you know, if we think that the problem is even higher. And sometimes my suspicions, frankly, are that people at the highest levels are really trying to undermine the wellbeing of people, of families, of nations because – I don’t know what the real reason is – they thrive on chaos or misery or whatever it is.

YAG: [Laughs] That’s true. They are not concerned about right or wrong. They are just working on their political agenda. Whatever makes their opposition in politics stronger they will do that. I don’t think they are concerned about right or wrong.

Hugh: So, how do we get to unification from here –

YAG: Total unification is not possible. Unification is only possible among those people who are like minded. Do you understand?

Hildegard: That was going to be my question because you mentioned as we learn spiritually about all of the souls that are inside of us, we have to be willing to look at that. So, who is willing, is it in the makeup of the unique soul the human beings carry? Some of them are already predestined to “wake up”, and other those who are just waking up because they chose not to this lifetime around?

YAG: Not all the souls have this potential of finding love and peace. Not all the souls are equal in nature. Not all the souls are similar in nature. Only the souls which are similar in nature to each other will look for unification. Some people or I should rather say some of the souls are designed to look similar and familiar to each other and some others are totally opposite in nature. Those who are prone to create a chaos and promote hatred they will not understand any other language. They will only understand how to create more hatred and more chaos. So, you cannot talk about unification, love and peace among those people. They are designed to promote hatred.

Hugh: Then what do you do?

YAG: You cannot do anything!

Hugh: Because we are living in the same world as those people, right? Some would argue those are the terrorists, the bad guys, those are the people that maybe the good guys need to go to war with.

YAG: No bad guy will turn into a good guy, no matter what you do.

Hugh: So, what do we do with them?

YAG: We have to take precautions and protections. I am being realistic. I am not telling you stories to make anybody happy. I am telling you something which is very close to reality. Not everybody will love and not everybody will love the idea of promoting love and peace. There are people who are designed to promote hatred and you can never change them.

Hildegard: So, the people who became radicalised, like Steve was saying earlier –

YAG: They were different in nature.

Hildegard: So, their soul is different than somebody who has a desire to live in peace and harmony?

YAG: No soul on earth who has the potential of living with love and peace will or can be radicalised because their nature will not allow it. Only those are at the stake of being radicalised, who, in their nature are already radicalised by God. So, they have been divinely radicalised.

Hildegard: Wow! You are opening a whole new kind of –

YAG: The only person you can blame, and I am sorry to say that, but we are just puppets. The boss is responsible for everything.

Hildegard: However, we are not to – [inaudible] – responsibility then because human beings have known to make transformations. Maybe people haven’t been mass-murderers and haven’t been radicalised yet there are most certainly things that I have done that I am not proud of and then later on I felt better. I think that is human nature, right?

YAG: I think mass-murderers and these terrorists are all the same but they are doing it for a different cause. That’s all I understand.

Hildegard: Your foundation draws those who have a soul that is resonating with unification to begin with or else they wouldn’t even be drawn –

YAG: We are trying to reach everybody but the problem is those who, in nature, are already radicalised, when they ask a question they are already attacking on us; they are swearing at us, to them we are infidels. [They say] ‘What is love? There is no such thing as love in Islam.’ Alright.

Messiah Foundation International loves everybody without prejudice, without reservation of the colour of your skin. We love everybody. We are practically trying to raise awareness of practical love, spirituality, enlightenment. We love everybody and we would love to draw attention of people who do not love to love. We are trying and we know there are only certain people who are prone to love will be drawn to love. Not everybody will be drawn to love. We are striving, [I don’t know] whether or not we are thriving but we are striving.

Hugh: And it’s an ongoing project. So, people can go to the website, of course, and listen to the daily message, daily broadcast. And people can get the information on the website which is www.goharshahi.us. So, thank you everybody for tuning in.

Younus AlGohar recently visited Toronto, Canada, where he gave an interview with ThatChannel.com. There, he spoke on a variety of topics including going beyond religion and becoming the character/image of God. Man receives attributes of God, which is how we become compassionate and kind. He also spoke on the concept of the awaited one in all religions.

About the Author

Younus AlGohar is the Representative of the Awaited One Lord Ra Riaz Gohar Shahi and CEO of Messiah Foundation International. He has been recognised as an Ambassador of Peace and Man of Valour. He is an advocate of divine love and interfaith harmony.