107. SENECA: Sympathy for the Devil

Seneca the Younger (4BC – AD65) was a Roman Stoic philosopher. I’m not going to pretend that I’m an expert on stoicism because I’m definitely not. Feel free to discuss stoicism and its pros and cons in the comments. Maybe I’ll learn a thing or two.

The Shaolin Monk returns for his third comic adventure! If you’re a new reader, he’s sort of the unofficial mascot of Zen Pencils. Think Mickey Mouse for Disney or Pikachu for Pokémon, except he would totally kick their butts (well, maybe not Pikachu). He’s previously appeared in Always Be Prepared and The Brick Walls.

The background images in the comic were taken from old Chinese scroll paintings sourced from Wikimedia Commons.

I just browsed the shop page for the Hadfield one and I suddenly remembered so many great quotes and sweet artwork to accompany them. And to think of all the inspiration they were. And Gavin, honestly your own story just gives your work that extra layer of… inspiration. One knows you believe what you illustrate.
So just thank you for the past year of great artwork, smiles, wee bit of tears and lots of motivation.
There were lots of people who’ve helped me along the past year and I’ll remember you as one of them. So just so I said that. Thank you!

Have you by any chance seen the movie Onibaba (1964)?
It’s the very first thing that springs to my mind when I see this cartoon; it’s about a mother who is jealous of her daughter going out and having sex in secret with a man the daughter loves. The mother puts on a mask she pulls off the face of a samuari who she lured in a trap and tries to scare her daughter away from the man but the mask is a kind of curse and she can’t take if off her face. Her daughter finally has to smash the mask from her face with a hamer and then her face is all deformed which is her punishment for her jealousy and meddling.

The quote that inspired this cartoon reminded me of a quote from Shelley’s Frankenstein, where the monster says: “I am malicious because I am miserable.” I’m guessing that Mary Shelley knew her Seneca.

I think that first think which people should do is not rescue the lady – she can stand up by her self. They should follow the monster, help him and show that “it” is not weakness. Because if people dont, the monster will make another mask – better, stronger – and it would be harder to damage it again. If people will help him, he will never wear another mask, he will never attack the lady and maybe even he will help other monsters.

Agreed! This is what I do not like about this comic: It implies that ugliness is a weakness and may even imply that ugly people will become cruel people. With your ending, it would only imply that the monsters self-image is his weakness, not ugliness.

My first reaction to the beastie is to hate him, but by the end I just want to hug him. I challenge myself to find out more about the person who needs to be hugged when faced with an unpleasant client (I am a mental health counselor). I love this one, thank you!

I didn’t take philosophy in high school or college (well, except for Modern Political Philosophy – but I don’t quite count that as the philosophy most thought of), so a quarter of a century (or so) later I get my philosophy lessons one comic at a time.

‘Grok’ comes from Heinlein’s ‘A Stranger in a Strange Land’. It literally means ‘to drink’ but is used to mean ‘to completely understand something and appreciate it’. You ‘share water’ to further understanding.

It’s a great book, as all Heinlein’s books are. In fact, his ‘Notebooks of Lazarus Long’, a collection of sayings and aphorisms reminds me a lot of this website, just with less pictures.

“Stoicism is one of the four major philosophical schools of antiquity. It was founded by Zeno in c. 300 BCE and was socially important until the late Roman Empire, in the 6th century CE. It says the goal of life is to live rationally, which, for them, means “living in harmony with both universal nature and human nature” (actual quote). Stoics disdain fortune (luck and chance) and seek to follow the natural way of things. In some sense it’s very Taoist-like, although the emphasis is on clear and unbiased perception of world.

The modern meaning of stoic (with lower “C”) we find in dictionaries today derives from the fact that Stoics only considered a virtuous mind as inherently “good”, so for them all other things (like life, death, wealth, health and poverty) are indifferent, neither good nor bad. Shakespeare’s “Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so”, from Hamlet, is a proven reference that Stoic tenet.

Funny thing: as far as we know, Stoicism is the only school to have had as major exponents both a slave (Epictetus) and an emperor (Marcus Aurelius). And in the same century!

Cleanthes, disciple of Zeno and second leader of Stoicism, was a boxer. So the Shaolin monk allegory is actually very fitting :D”

Gav, if at all possible, could you check out the site error where it constantly, automatically teleports me to the top of the comments?
I would think it was an error of my own, but it appears on whatever computer or device I check ZP on.
Great comic, so true, etc. something of note is that often bullying of a specific target stems from a sense of inferiority towards that person specifically… Or maybe that is encompassed in this…

As a big fan of zen pencils I agree that the artist generally does a very good job representing women. I am confident this was an unfortunate slip.

That does not mean that you should ignore the problems with the trope and its use in this strip, but instead means that letting the author know about the problems with this trope will probably lead to better things in the future.

There are so many ways in which one could squelch your argument but I will pick two…

Limits of Bio-diversity: We have only two genders (genetic mutations aside) so in a situation of a rescue there is going to be someone who is saved and someone who does the saving. By your rules, a woman can save a man, a man can save a man, a woman can save a woman, and I suppose that anyone can save a kid. But if a man saves a woman then it is automatically a sexist trope. Ridiculous.

Art: You are looking at art. Art is MADE to make people think. And even while I agree that women should not be objectified, this is not such an example. Not every “windmill” you see is a “giant”. Ya dig?

Sociology and Time: The monk, apparently Gavin’s favorite character, comes from a culture and a period different from our own. In this time it was expected that men should defend women and the comic is a reflection of this. The author simply took a quote and found one way to apply it to the monk without anachronisms. Why would you expect every culture in every time period to conform to yours?

Limits of Bio-Diversity: You are claiming that my argument is “But if a man saves a woman then it is automatically a sexist trope.” That was not my argument.

My argument is that, completely independent of this particular comic, there exists a sexist trope, commonly referred to as the Damsel in Distress trope. This trope treats women as objects who are unable to effect change from their own actions and must rely on the actions of men.

It is not “automatically” sexist if a man saves a woman, but employing a sexist trope is worse than not using that trope or working to subvert the common, sexist uses of that trope. For instance, if this apple-selling woman became a character in a future strip in which her choices and actions were relevant to the story, it would subvert the image created of her in this strip as a helpless woman who can do nothing to change her circumstances.

Art: Here is what this comic made me think: In this story, there are two characters and a prop. There are two males and a female. I don’t think it’s quite a coincidence that the female is the prop. (To illustrate what I mean by ‘prop’, imagine if in this strip the woman were replaced by a bag of money, a statue, or some other object of value. No actions in the entire strip would change. Replace the monk or the demon with an inanimate object and the entire story falls apart.)

I am curious what this strip made you think, because all you seem to be saying is “don’t comment on examples of sexism in people whose work you enjoy”.

Sociology and Time: Which time period do you think the monk comes from in which literal demons walk the face of the earth?

Again I have not made my intentions clear. I do not mean for my comments to have any impact on the setting of the comic in order to have “every culture in every time period conform to [mine]”. I do mean for my comments to have an impact on the author and, possibly, you as well.

Hopefully some people will come to understand that using a trope as objectifying as the Damsel in Distress trope is worse than not using that trope. This is my intention.

It seems your intention was to “squelch [my] argument”. You have not yet succeeded, but I look forward to another attempt.

The damsel in distress is a fairly typical sexist trope, I was curious as to THE STRONGEST KARATE’s statement was accurate: “ZP has plenty of comics about the strengths of women.” So I did a brief check of the archive.

There are currently 107 comics, 9 of them are by women and 21 feature women as the main character. Women are fairly commonly the ‘reward’ of the strip and are portrayed as sex objects on a regular basis. The most common negative portrayal of men appears to be as violent or lazy but I didn’t really look into that.

My analysis is that ZP is casually sexist not because the author is intentionally portraying women negatively but because he’s lazy and using fairly common scenarios to illuminate a quote. Men are also more prevalent as quote sources because of historical reasons.

Ways to improve: While it may be difficult to source as many quotes from women, there is no reason women cannot be featured as the main character as often as men. Here are also some quotes from women that I think would be appropriate for the comic:

Each person must live their life as a model for others.
Rosa Parks

One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying.
Joan of Arc

“That brain of mine is something more than mortal; as time will show

Before ten years are over, the Devil’s in it if I have not sucked out some of the life-blood from the mysteries of this universe, in a way that no purely mortal lips or brains could do.

No one knows what almost awful energy and power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry little system of mine. I say awful, because you may imagine what it might be under different circumstances.”
Ada lovelace, upon inventing computer programming

Don’t let anyone rob you of your imagination, your creativity, or your curiosity. It’s your place in the world; it’s your life. Go on and do all you can with it, and make it the life you want to live.
Mae Jemison, astronaut, fits in with hadfield’s recent article

It’s funny how you choose to call a situation of a man and a woman coming together as the man being “rewarded” by getting the woman. Why not simply call it over coming barriers to love?

I am all for equality. Though it is sad how so many people have become “hammers” and see every situation as a “nail”. The view is too black and white. Real life is dynamic and will never perfectly fit into the box of perfect gender fairness. Some men are smarter. Some women are stronger. So you cannot expect everything to be the way you want it.

Also, who the hell are you to call someone who produces art for your enjoyment, FREE OF CHARGE, lazy?

Alright, we’re all smart and enlightened people and we need to stop this thread from reaching its certain point of combustion.

Yes, sexism is a serious matter, but we should deal with it in the proper venues. Not on a free Australian webcomic. Zen Pencils also does not portray the required 50% of dark skinned people. Nor does it dedicate 50% of of its content to condemn animal abuse, European colonialism, capitalism, national socialism, war, Al Qaeda, or whatever other important issue we are having in this rock.

Zen Pencils is made by a certain author. This author is free to decide on the content as he seems fit. He also enabled an uncensored comments section, which is quite a bold move from anyone in the internet these days. We like his comics, and we want him to keep drawing. Comic such as these are extremely rare in web today.

As I said. These things must be discussed in the proper place. This is not it. Do not make the author turn this into yet another politics blog. So, please stop trying to push you opinion down on our throats.

And you more expertly illustrated the point I wished to make – that in the limits of a comic, or even 109 comics, one cannot achieve the perfect harmony of gender/age/race/religious equality. And to expect or demand it is the epitome of lunacy.

What got my hackles up is when I started seeing people loose their minds and make accusations simply because the piece does not fall in line with their own principles. I’ve seen this happen with more than a few excellent web artists and sadly not all of them had the stomach for the vitriol.

I agree with your latter point as well – this isn’t a politics blog nor should it be. Hopefully Gavin wont even read these and is too busy working on his next piece.

I don’t think that posting a comment about a general trope referenced by the comic is “losing their minds and [making] accusations”. I don’t sense any vitriol coming from any of the people in this comments thread so far; maybe I’m not sensitive to these issues like some others, though.

This is how human beings improve; through polite discussion of issues. Nothing will ever be as good as it can be right off the bat, but that doesn’t make it bad. For example, the objectification in this comic did bother me and I do agree that it is a recurring problem; that doesn’t mean I didn’t appreciate the awesome art or cheer at the return of the kickass Shaolin monk or be stilled by the poignance of the quote. I don’t hate Gavin, or his site, or his art, or anything; I still think he’s an awesome person.

And I do hope he reads these comments and achieves new levels of awesomeness.

I do not consider the coming together of mutual lovers a ‘reward’ but there are instances where the woman could be replaced by any kind of inanimate object and the strip would still work, relegating her to the role of a reward.

I never said that men or women are exactly equal, nor do I have expectations, I am merely curious about the role of sex in this comic and decided to look into it and share my findings and thoughts.

This site is ad supported, who I am is the product being sold to support the author in his venture. As for calling the author lazy, I said that in the context of using common scenarios like the damsel in distress, which is pretty easy, clearly he’s a hard worker.

I don’t really understand your objection here, would the site be diminished somehow if there were more women featured?

Interesting discussion here. It’s true, I don’t have enough quotes by women, something I will be trying to rectify. Working week to week, I don’t pay attention to what gender the author is, but now, looking back at over 100 pieces, it’s way outbalanced.

I dont think the gender thing is your selection Gav, I think its just the way it is in that it just happens to be that most of the famous quotes that we know just happen to be by men, but i would certainly be interested to hear of more women inspirators.

Bigots, homophobes, wife beaters, and muggers. All of these spring from inadequacies (or “weaknesses” in Seneca’s words) in those who perpetrate these acts.

Still, I wonder if the monk made the right decision to spare the monster. Pity and forgiveness are righteous qualities, but to protect the weak (and by extension, to protect society) evil must be snuffed out.

The Latin word used by Seneca is “infirmitas”, meaning both weakness and illness. According to Stoicism, being cruel and violent is actually a pathology. Wisdom is often equated to “a healthy mind” in that doctrine.

I am but an amateur but it was my understanding that a pathology related exclusively to bacteria, viruses, infectious fungi, and other microscopic bad-guys rather than a condition of the mind such as, for want of a better word, “evil”. Still, the overarching point is sound. Having wisdom does lead one to a healthy mind.

I like how you took an old painting and give it a new life in your art. I love also how you created a Zen story from the thoughts of a Roman philosopher, it’s like watching a full blown flower developing in slow motion from a tiny seed.
About Seneca, my favourite quote is “fate leads the willing and drags along the reluctant” (I even used it in a henna tattoo a friend’s arm, long story).

But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most, our one fellow and brother who most needed a friend yet had not a single one, the one sinner among us all who had the highest and clearest right to every Christian’s daily and nightly prayers, for the plain and unassailable reason that his was the first and greatest need, he being among sinners the supremest?
– Mark Twain

Speaking of adapting a song (like someone thought you did with the Stones), there is this song called “Everybody is free to wear sunscreen” by Baz Luhrman. It’s basically great advice on life, like you would give to a class of graduates….
It made me dance. Like, a lot … whenever I feel like it

Hey, there’s a cool website where you think of a character that’s real or fictional, and answer questions, the game tries to guess the character. And the Monk is now one of the characters.http://en.akinator.com/personnages/jeu