October 06
2008

Asked to use a particular phone, Whedon might say yes. "If we need to talk about the wonder of that phone? I don't know." Television is a mass art, requiring compromise, pragmatism, he knows-but the line creators draw should not be about "How coolly can I do this? The most artful can be the most unethical."

Is that a new mispelling? But I get so annoyed when watching any show and suddenly the actors are talking about a product and the camera zooms in on it in such an obvious way. Examples: Alias and the Ford commerical episode and an episode of CSI NY when two of the actors were crossing the street talking about a case and suddenly the phone rings and the other guy starts to fawn over it and they talk ring tones and how to get them for that phone! Blech. Completely took me out of the story.

I think Joss is more miffed about forced webisodes and I can't blame him. Just because it's the new thing doesn't mean everyone has to do them. If they are completely natural, integrated well, and contribute to the narrative then great. I really liked the Lost mobisodes. They were great and added a bit to show.

And did anybody else picture Joss playing around with the Mutant Enemy logo for an hour and when he mentioned zombie shows? Hell, I'd watch that.

I'm always happy for more Dr. Horrible/Joss advertising, but it seemed pretty weakly connected to the rest of the article. Independently-produced, advertising-free web shows by creators with a large built-in Internet following don't seem like much of an alternative economic model to set up against product placements on network TV.

Heh, we were talking about this tonight. My friend Lisa's gotten her boyfriend into Buffy and they were at Season 2's "Reptile Boy" tonight, so I watched with 'em. Willow and Xander share a Coke at one point. I dunno if they just randomly used it as a prop, or if it was intentional. Would they still use Coke even if Coke didn't pay for product placement, or would they go for something generic ?

The product placement in Heroes is annoying. I remember it being very obvious in Season 1. Hiro and Ando in Vegas with the car ?

Independently-produced, advertising-free web shows by creators with a large built-in Internet following don't seem like much of an alternative economic model to set up against product placements on network TV.

Not so much an alternative economic model for something as massive as network TV, as an alternative way for artists to get their stuff to their audience on more of a scale of choice?

I do remember one scene in BtVS where Willow is drinking a Coke and she turns the can around so you can read the label towards the camera. It was perhaps a bit too obvious.

The Jossverse usually uses fake brands in most of its episodes, though, with references to various things like Sears, Starbucks, Prada, Payless and Manolo Blahniks. The Jossverse was one of the more subtle shows that went out of its way for generic brands and music. Only a handful of songs and artists used were blatantly popular and well-known (and more towards the end of the show--Michelle Branch and Aimee Mann).

I was going to read this article, but then I couldn't find a way to bring it all up on one page, and I don't feel like clicking through seven ad-dominated pages to read it.

Way down at the bottom theonetruebix, under the comments, there's a "Print" button which opens the whole thing up in one page (not as ironic but there you go ;).

I don't mind the close-ups but the endorsement by characters is sometimes a bit much. The worst i've seen is probably the Toyota Yaris from 'Smallville', seemed like poor old Chloe had to mention how great it was most episodes for a time there.

You do have to wonder a bit about the '30 Rock' approach, great as that show is IMO. In one sense it's a necessary evil that they have to deal with somehow but in another the sugar-coating might just encourage us to completely forget we're being fed a pill at all.

And re: banners at the bottom of the screen, is that during the show ? Cos "NO THANKS !" with a capital fuck off, there's already too much on the screen that seems almost deliberately crafted to pull you out of the moment and remind you that this is, indeed, just a way to sell you stuff (at least with advert breaks the writer can structure their script around it so that dramatic moments are highlighted rather than being crushed beneath the weight of a third of a screen advert for frikkin' "Ghost Hunters").

What's worse though? Product placement? Rolling ads at the bottom? Or the software now being tested in the UK and US which will automatically insert logos into large empty parts of the screen as the action unfolds.

I don't have a problem with brands featuring in shows, in fact it would clearly be impossible to make a show without brands. Chloe in Smallville has to drive some sort of car, why not get paid to use a certain brand.
But when the brand dictated starts dictating, and jarring with, the script then there's a problem. The first time I saw Chloe in the Yaris I thought "She used to have a Beetle convertable, why is she driving that cheap Toyota?" (No offence, Yaris owners). The downgrade in car wasn't addressed in the script. I know if a friend of mine suddenly turned up in a cheaper car I'd ask about it, so this example took me out of the story.

Hiro and Ando arguing about the car in Heroes? I can accept that. It was consistent with Hiro's character that he would obsess about a car. But what if the script then demanded that they break down? Would Toyota have allowed that?

It's like trying to explain the difference between art and porn. You can't really define the difference but you know it when you see it. If a product is something that a character would use, or talk about, then fine. People IRL do talk about products. How many iPhone users go on and on about how great their phones are?
But when scripts start having to be re-written to force products and dialogue in, then there's a problem.
And I think it's in the advertises own interest to avoid these clumsy, jarring, placements. I've driven a Yaris, it's a nice little car. But the way it was featured in Smallville made me laugh at it, not want to buy one.

But the way it was featured in Smallville made me laugh at it, not want to buy one.

Yeah, exactly zz9. It was presented on that show as a sort of hip getaway vehicle, always screeching around like some nippy little sports car and, frankly, it isn't. Advertising like that always makes me laugh anyway, y'know the whole "This tampon will change your life" sort of thing, like they're selling a "lifestyle choice" instead of a frikkin' toaster.

(not saying it doesn't work on us all BTW, it must or they wouldn't keep making them, it's just so absurd as a concept that it makes me smile. "Life in the shitter ? No Problem, we here at Gillette have just what you need to turn everything around" ;)

Or the software now being tested in the UK and US which will automatically insert logos into large empty parts of the screen as the action unfolds.

That last one horrorfies me.

Well if it's just "BANG" there then yeah Andy Dufresne, that'd be naff but if they include e.g. green screen "signs" in the background while filming and these are then just pasted over with locale specific adverts then I don't see too much wrong with that (depending on how it's done). It already happens for sports for instance, where the railing banner ads we see during a football match may not actually be there in real-life, they're super-imposed by post-processing software in real-time.

(and one upside might be that shows could be available worldwide since the ads could be tailored for each region ahead of time)

I think the only show that's starting to bother me about product placement is TSCC. Them driving that damn Dodge around is getting to be way too obvious. And hell, if they have to go out of their way to show the big shiny truck, at least let it be a decent brand (sorry, I have a pathological hate of all things Dodge, stemming from childhood when my mom had this piece of crap Dodge Shadow).

The most disturbing product placement I ever seen was when a priest and a rabbi on the Gilmore Girls started talking about going to eat at 'Red Lobster'. I'm all for people making a buck, but oy vey that was annoying.

(For anyone with a passing interest in the psychology of advertising, I highly recommend popping over to the Gruen Transfer website
It's got past episodes of a very funny and entertaining Aussie show that dissects and debates ads and sales practices.)

What's worse though? Product placement? Rolling ads at the bottom? Or the software now being tested in the UK and US which will automatically insert logos into large empty parts of the screen as the action unfolds.
Andy Dufresne | October 06, 11:49 CET

If that happens, I swear I'll watch the shows that do it On Demand, on my computer, even if it means forgoing curling up comfortably on the couch. And bombard the networks with complaints and get everyone I've ever known to do the same.

They're called "commercial breaks" for a reason. You get to watch the show, then they get to air commercials during the "break". Which is what the "mute" button is for.

Product placements are irritating but I can ignore them if they don't try to actually work them into the story line, as apparently has been done on Heroes (don't watch it so I haven't seen it personally).
But the pop-ups during the show, advertising other shows .... which are getting both larger and more frequent .... make me want to shoot the TV screen.
Enough is enough, at some point, surely, we "consumers" will revolt in such numbers that they'll realize that they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Imagine Willow saying that she was so good at the computer stuff because she used a Mac ... or something like that. *shudders*

Yeah, we all know that its OpenBSD that makes people good at hacking (place your pre-order for version 4.4 now!!!).

I quite liked the Sprint line in Heroes, because it worked well as a gag on its own.

Yeah, it did and it didn't. Which is kinda how most of these work out. It works less well when you've seen Sprint commercials at the breaks and it feels like they are pushing it down your throat. Plus, people don't tend to mention brands that often on these shows, so it stands out like thumb hit by a hammer.

That second 30 Rock example made me cringe.

I thought the 30 Rock placements were hilarious and post-ironic enough to get by. They were so over-the-top about it that I wondered if it was actually placement for a second.

Tha's a good point. I have no problem with that either. The only thing that scares me about this technology is that it's automated. So it's not ads-within-a-show, it's a computer seeing that behind the character there is a lot of sky, and so british airways flags up there for a few seconds. Would drive me mental and cause me to take my TV via Lovefilm.

The banners for other shows at the bottom are a travesty. Some of them even have sound effects. I can't remember what I was watching but one of them made me miss the dialogue. Ridiculous.

And just a moment to defend the Yaris. I didn't see those episodes of Smallville, but I have a Yaris and it IS a zippy little car. And it turns on a dime. I once made a complete U-turn in my driveway! There is no parking spot I can't get into. And I never get below 35 MPG.

But I wonder what would happen if a character used a certain car, and there was a call in the script for some kind of breakdown.

Smallville are the worst. They are utter whores for this crap. R.E.M have a greatest hits out, so every song in the episode is an REM hit. The Yaris should have it's own title card. One Republic, phones, gum. There is nothing they won't sell and there seems to be no measure taken to protect the story (maybe because the story is almost always dire).

The first time I saw Chloe in the Yaris I thought "She used to have a Beetle convertable, why is she driving that cheap Toyota?" (No offence, Yaris owners). The downgrade in car wasn't addressed in the script.

There was an entire Justice League webisode series devoted solely to the Yaris; I think that might be how she got it. I could be wrong on that point. But I definitely remember shaking my head when the webisode plot macguffin was hidden in the dashboard of the Yaris, and the Justice League was all but urging Chloe to rush there in time to retrieve it from the dashboard of that exceptionally compact, attractive car with excellent mileage!

But then, if we started listing the instances of Smallville's shamelessness, we'd be here all night. The show is kind of a desperate product placement whore. Just one more reason Smallville shouldn't be watched sober whenever the alternative presents itself. (I say this lovingly, as someone who's been watching for six years now.)

Yeah, they're totally shameless really. And it's run for 7 seasons so far with an eighth just starting, which probably tells us something.

And just a moment to defend the Yaris.

I'm most assuredly not attacking the Yaris Xane (it's got great headroom for one thing ;). I'm sure it's a smashing little car, a friend of mine had one and she seemed very happy with it but it wouldn't exactly be my first choice in a car chase for instance, despite its fuel economy and ease of parking (even the top of the range model only has a 1.8 litre engine, plenty for A to B, not so much for A to get-chased-and-run-off-the-road-long-before-you-reach B ;).

Presenting it like that, with screeching tyres and so on is pure "lifestyle spin" IMO. It's selling it as hip, young, dynamic, independent, spirited, a bit edgy etc. when in fact it's a very good, cheap, economical, basically sensible car that isn't going to turn you into a super-hero (or his sidekick ;).

I remember the episode of Smallville where Kara smashed Lois' phone and you could clearly see the Sprint logo as she was smashing it. I was like O_o, and was waiting for Lois to scream "OH NO YOU CRUSHED MY MOTOROLLA BY SPRINT!"

Just as Buffy was Apple Mac heaven so Smallville is Dellville. Every single laptop or monitor has a huge "DELL!" visible.

Bottom line is we have to accept this to some extent. If it was banned then studios would have to buy all that stuff as props, cost would rise and then the networks would need more advertising to pay for the shows. It's all got to come from somewhere. I prefer low key product placement to six minute long ad breaks.
If I walk outside my front door now I will see cars with Ford or Toyota badges, at work friends will tell me about their wonderful new Sony Ericson phone and down the pub a friend talked for ten minutes about his new Epson printer.
It's only when it is blatantly forced into the script, or in the case of Chloe's downgrade to a smaller car makes no sense, that I object.

Does this make me want to buy one? I have a car that I cannot think has ever been shown in any TV show or movie. Ever. Yet I wanted one since it came out and bought one last year. So at least I know I'm not blindly led by product placement.

Now excuse me while I have another can of delicious Coca Cola. Mmmm... (Holds can up to webcam)

I remember reading at some point that there was a Buffy episode when somebody brings in a bag of Krispy Kremes, but it wasn't technically a paid product placement: even though Krispy Kreme wasn't available in SoCal yet at that time, they'd given a bunch of samples to the show. And sure enough, everybody loved them and one of the actors decided to use the bag in a shot. I wish I could remember where I'd heard this story... is this familiar to anyone else?

I'd say the show that did product placement right was Gilmore Girls. It was obvious, but also formed part of their personalities. (I'm thinking of Luke looking on in disgust when he sees what Lorelei puts in her oven as a meal.)

I really hate banner ads that cover up relevant show-stuff at the bottom of the screen. Like Sun & Jin's Korean on Lost and the copious amounts of Japanese on Heroes. Product place all you want (subtley though, please), just as long as the banners-during-shows stop. Those take me out of the moment way more than a quick shot of the Ford logo on one of 24's vehicles or a character talking about something they've bought or like (in a natural, makes-sense-for-the-script-and-character fashion).

And yeah, I remember one time seeing a banner ad that had sound effects playing over the music/dialogue of the show too. It was literally bells and whistles. I was watching Fox.

If I didn't have a PVR, I think I'd be DVD-only for everything I watch at this point.

As far as Wil using Mac, that just made me think she was cool, using a REAL computer, rather than an unusable pile of bugs. I never noticed the coke can. Usually they were munching on non-brand (invented brand) chips and things.

But as for not only taking up the bottom third of the screen, but washing out the dialog for sound effects advertising some other show -- those drive me completely buggy.

Not having seen any "Whendon" stuff on broadcast (I'm late to the game, and it's all been DVD -- except the Horrible Doctor, of course), I wanted to point out the oddness of Lorne coming back from commercial break. It was a bit confusing, until I realized he was referring to the ads I hadn't seen.

The Krispy Kreme thing strikes me as odd; I mean, I figure the writers, since they lived in LA, knew that chain hadn't yet moved into that part of CA, so why use it?

As for that software that will insert ads into open screen space, well, pretty soon real life will be that way as well; they're working on several technologies that will allow ads to float by in the sky, appear suddenly on outside walls etc. so the TV software will prepare us for that. I'm only being partly facetious here.

As for products on Buffy - early episodes used actual brands. (Like the Coke can.) Later episodes they used the actual product container but altered the name. I forget exactly what it was, but Xander was munching a bag of Ruffles and they'd changed the name to Riffles or something cute.

And, I'm sorry, but when I'm watching SVU I don't want to see someone diving off the highboard at the bottom of my screen (Olympics advertising this summer) or House popping up in the middle of American Idol. I'm watching this show. If I want to watch that show, I'll watch it. I don't need that show jumping into this one. The subtle shadow logos are bad enough, 'cause sometimes they're not so subtle. (Like the Olympic rings under the NBC peacock, which is large enough as it is.)

As far as Wil using Mac, that just made me think she was cool, using a REAL computer, rather than an unusable pile of bugs.

I already made an OpenBSD joke somewhere and we all know hackers use CLI and are appalled by GUIs ;). WSStm applies... I don't think there is a major OS that can be described as an unusable pile of bugs (well, AIX, sure, but I said major ;) Sorry, IBM!) these days.

The author compared two possible futures. There is actually a third possibility - that because of the decline of narrative value viewers will just watch less TV, and do other things, leading to the decline of the medium overall
You know, there was a narrative similar to this at one time, something about a goose laying golden eggs...

Well here I sit on my Parker Knoll recliner typing on my HP laptop ( internet connection via Netgear and Virgin) . I'm sipping on a nice glass of Echo Falls Californian Red and wondering if the cat ( She's called Numfar so I must remember to send Joss a bill for advertising Pylean dancing boys) will want to be fed a nice plate of Whiskers ( Nine out of ten cats prefer it) before bedtime ( relax in a Radox bath and sleep well with a Slumberland duvet). * tots up product placement totals and waits for The Royal Mail (Helping your business grow) to deliver the cheque*. When that arrives I shall hop in my Citroen and place my hard earned dosh in my HSBC (The world's local bank) savings account (*sings the extra interest jingle*)

Yikes this subliminal advertising is more complicated than it seems at first glance ( vision improved by Optical Express, style with value)

If you believed TV shows, you'd think everyone uses a Mac. Even the counter-terrorism unit on 24.

If I remember correctly CTU had both PC and Mac the first year. And if you paid attention, the traitors/bad guys used one and the good guys used the other. Can't remember who used which, but that wouldn't work again after people figured it out.

Heh, yeah I remember reading about that a few years ago too, though I didn't know when I was watching (I'm glad I didn't, because apparently all the villains and any good-guys-who-betrayed were using PCs, the heroes all Macs).

Here, I found Wired article. It also mentions that the same was true in the first Mission Impossibe film.

See, that kind of thing (which I'm not normally on the lookout for--usually paying attention to the actor's faces and what's going on action-wise, not the set dressing/hardware) is okay with me. I mean you shouldn't put blatant spoiler clues in the visuals of your show in case a spoilerphobe recognizes it by accident, but the Mac/PC thing is kinda cute. For one season. Then give it up.

Stories (when done well) are far too buoyant to be sunk by a par boiled frog trying to escape a cesspool. The good story is the lily pad and the frog wants to land squarely on it. If the lily exists to serve the frog then both will be pulled into the muck.

My concern would be that all scifi is doomed cause in space no one drives a Ford, or will we see the future as a memorial to the everlasting influences of Coke and McD (see Demolition Man for example).

One possible future for the world of tv is clearly one where the creatives with a vision is completely driven away from the broadcast networks by Nielsen requirements and the demands of paying for 'free' tv with product placements and pop up ads , the cable world should be more than happy for the free shot at being the place for quality content, be it a cheaper more small scale quality. While it's hard to believe that the networks would give up on scripted tv, after all they need one or two shows to show the critics, the issues with product placements is going to lose them even more viewers (and creatives) keeping the downward spiral going.

After all the numbers seems to scream give the world more cheap reality shows cause thats what brings the audience.

I think at least as many reality shows get cancelled, the problem (if you're a scripted TV fan) is that from the studio/networks' perspective it's a much cheaper bet on a reality show which means they can throw a lot more shit at the reality TV wall to see what sticks.

Can't remember who used which, but that wouldn't work again after people figured it out.

24's already pretty sci-fi with their technology (no surprise seeing as the creators of 24 were behind the TV series version of La Femme Nikita, which went into pretty much hard sci-fi territory on more than a few occasions), plus the show must be taking place in something like 2012 by now with all the multi-year skips between some of the seasons. I might not be against seeing aliens show up at one point, heh. I'm all for a genre shift, done right.

I guess I'm sort of a supporter of product placement - in a way. For me, blatantly fictional products on display in a show/film can take me right out of the moment. I have actually considered this from a writer's point of view (not as a real, professional writer, alas - though my B.A. is in English Writing Arts, to help explain why I'd've looked at it from this angle) and realized that I would want to use real, true-to-life stores/foods/etc. in any works which I produced.

That said, having to alter dialogue to praise a product - or create story points around it? Yuck. Hopefully that won't become a necessary evil for any (more?) shows.

And I definitely hate hate hate those pop-up advertising banners during the shows. And it's not just network TV. TNT is one of the most egregious offenders I've seen, with large, full-motion shots of their stars walking across the bottom quarter of the screen to stop in dramatic poses. These really may drive me from watching most television at some point.