im planning on learning the toeside front roll this weekend. I wanna get the scarecrow by the end of the season. Anything you all noticed when first learning it that will help me out. I've watched a few instructionals on the frontroll, but was wondering what the most common problems are when throwing it for the first time..

I'd say the scarecrow is easier, you never let go with either hand unless you are grabbing and if you pop it right, the trick kinda completes itself.

Some do their rolls a different but personally I have always come in on a hard edge and squared up the wake as I ride off the top. Really you take the trick up and tuck your chin down and it comes right around.

Most common problem is not riding all the way up the wake and leaving way early and throwing the trick down, take it UP!

j, the most common problem you will experience with these is landing on your back butt and or sliding out the back. take a shorter approach and really make sure your ride all the way through the top of the wake before you throw this. i also experienced rotating 90 degrees towards a crow. to stop this i learned to take a cut almost away from the boat pop with the hips at the top then roll it over. when i slowed my approach, cut away from the boat, popped with my hips then threw it i hit hit it one of the next few attempts. good luck. i still dont have it on lock, but i can usually hit them every set now. hope this helps. let me know what you think.

Stephan is right, the scarecrow is easier than the TS frontroll. Its a more natural rotation, esp if you hold on with both hands. If you try the scarecrow, don't try to do the 180, your body will naturally spin 180 since you will be holding on with your rear hand. If you go for the TS frontroll, come in with a hard progressive edge and trip flip at the top of the wake. Don't let go with your rear hand until you leave the wake. Once you pop, throw the roll and keep the handle in so your rotation will be quicker than when your hand is let all the way out. If you land on your toeside edge, it will help you ride away much easier than butt checking. Good luck.

+1 to the Scarecrow is easier. I took a bad faceplant learning the frontroll because the board wants to go revert. After that faceplant I just said screw it, I'm going for the crow. So to date I can do a scarecrow behind the boat, but have only done the frontroll on kickers at the cable.

so if I have problems generating enough pop to get the full rotation on a short approach/ or problems landing heel heavy on a long hard approach what should I do. I have been trying them for years. I will try to find video later. I have landed like 5 crows but feel I could stomp both if I really understand how to get the rotation. I really prefer to try with a wide hard cut but it is such a fast "violent" rotation that either I wash out or a pop my back hip on the landing. Should I take it back to the basics? I have tried it with every edge i know. It just pisses me off seeing people take a real progressive soft edge and pop straight up and just whip around. This trick has had me for years!!! Do taller people have trouble getting them around? Im 6'4"

Go scarecrow!!! Sure, if you really want to follow the letter of the law for "trick progression" then some will tell you to learn the frontroll first. I worked on frontrolls at first, and like others have said, had a hard time not going to revert. So I started trying scarecrows and had them not too long later.

Learning a crow first will probably make frontrolls a little bit more difficult later, but at the same time, you will have a great understanding at that point about the edge, pop, and flip initiation of the trick.

Here is what I do, I take a Wide mellow approach. I stand pretty tall as I approach the wake and Really Focus on Riding up it, then pushing off of it. Frontrolls are really an agressive Trip Edge Tirck, scarecrows are more of a Trip Edge/Rope Pull Trick. With any trip edge trick people have a tendancy to trip the edge to early (at the bottom of the wake) and not get any pop. I would be money that's what your doing especially if you are raging in at the wake.

Here is step by step how I do each trick.

Frontroll:

1.) I take a Wide Mellow progressive edge towards the wake with my knees bent, rope in tight to your lead hip. 2.) As I ride up the wake I start to trip the edge by pushing the board into the wake hard, almost changing edges, if you can get your front foot in front of your lead shoulder you are tripping correctly (I have a good sequence shot of this at home I will Upload it later today). 3.) When I start to fell the pull on the rope of the tripping edge I pop striaght up and lead with my head. (This brings you up, a lot of people will point their head towards the other wake, this will take you out not up). 4.) As I leave the wake but before I am in the Air I let go with my backhand and reach for the grab, Indy is the easiest but Tail and Stale are fun too. Letting go with your back hand will square off your shoulders and Make your board "roll" over edge to edge. 5.) Once you get the grab the trick happens quick, you cannot see much while you in the air but your feet until your are almost back on the water. 6.) Let go of the grab and set it down clean.

Keys here and Popping Straight up and leading that with your head and staying tight in the air so you land square on your board.

Here's a good photo of your shoulders being squared off in the air.

Scarecrow Most people Find this WAY easier.

1.) I take the same approach as on a Frontroll, Wide, mellow and progressive. Knees bent, rope in tight to your lead hip. (This is I feel where the two tricks start to differ) 2.) At the wake I start to push the board into the wake just like I would on a Frontroll but I really try and Load my front foot Heavy. 3.) As you start to break off the wake you Look up and over your lead shoulder (agian dont point your head towards the other wake point it up, this will take you up opposed to out). 4.) Like the FR I go for the grab before I Leave the wake, this time you grab with your lead Hand, nose is prolly the easiest But mellon is pretty easy to, lately I have love grabbing mute). 5.) In the air you are almost trying to jump over the handle, (Like a TS FS OA SPIN) do this by pulling the handle down when your in the air. This will get you into a nice compact position and bring the board over your head.) 6.) Once you have the grab and are going up and over and can see the water again pull the rope towards your handle side hip, this will complete the rotation and sqaure off your shoulders. 7.) Set it down clean and claim it!

I HOPE THIS HELPS! Let me know if anything here is unclear and I will help you out.

Quick side note, once you get the TS FR down its super fun to Pull the handle across your chest as you come around in the flip and land it Switch like a crow, but down right its a FR to Revert, supa fun!

Wes - Andy is right in that you are probaly tripping it too early. I did this for a while in the beginning as well. The thing that helped me was look across both wakes and focus on something and make sure my eyes stay there until I feel the pop off the top of the wake. Before that, I would flatten off at the wake and then immediately throw it causing me to flip low and fast and come up short. After a while you won't have to over-exagerate this "waiting" process so much but it really helps in the beginning.

I know Andy (and others) will really tell you to load up your front foot. That actually hurt me learning this trick so try it both ways. Trying to load my front foot made me lean towards the wake so as soon as I hit the wake it would send me into the flip too early and make me rotate very fast and low to the water. If you get enough speed at the beginning of your cut, then you can really flatten off early and focus on riding all the way up the wake. That really helped me learn the pop. Now I don't have to flatten off so early, but when I first started learning them it helped to do so.

+1 for staying square to learn them... its really helps you to be able to spot the landing... and when you come down make sure to get your weight over the balls of your feet or you'll slip out the back