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You were the one who said he responded to her heart. So when did Kyubei appear to wannabe mahou shoujos in the series?

Mami because he responded to her heart (BUT did not know her yet)
Sayaka because he responded to her heart at the very point the guy acted up

And you implicitly agree he can teleport because you disagree he was following them or spying on them in any way

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Not really, because he doesn't seem anxious to me. He tells her outright that she has great potential, but that's it. When they finally decide they don't want to be MG's, he apologizes and leaves without a fuss. If Kyube really wanted Madoka, and if he were really scheming, and if the wishes were as powerful as being able to world reset and time travel... then Kyube could have said reviving Mami with a wish was possible, or at least hinted at it.

That would have made one HELL of an impression on Madoka. Even if she didn't decide to become an MG, it's great mental torture to subject someone to, knowing that in time, they'd probably come to you because they know about a specific wish you can grant. Instead, he apologizes for bringing them in.

Note that Kyube doesn't even appear when Madoka gets involved with the zombies. He could have popped in and said, "I can help get you out of this if you contract with me." Would have been perfect.

The things you're asking him to do is like pointing a giant finger at himself "I'm bad". Eg appearing and say you can help out if she does X? Well if i see someone having an asthma attack and say "Hey, i'll help out if you pay me money and give me bjs". I'm sure even the most naive people would start to suspect that i don't really want to help you.

So far he has not really been doing anything noticably suspicious to the characters in the anime. Sure viewers see it since the lighting is used to portray sinister feelings but so far he has been doing things a would be expected. Shut up when Mami rebuked him on pressuring them? Done. Asked them to contract with him when Mami lost her head? Done. Walked away then showed up later? Done. All quite reasonable except for showing up EXACTLY when its time to sign that contract

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It was stupid to want Kamijou to play the violin again?

Yes because things happen and wishes are only a bandaid, not a cure. That hand cured? Sure until he falls down and breaks it or injures it seriously again or shatters his leg or loses his right hand, etc tec.

Feeling great because you "sacrificed" yourself for him? Well that lasts about a few minutes. Fighting witches? Well that lasts about the rest of your short life.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

You were the one who said he responded to her heart. So when did Kyubei appear to wannabe mahou shoujos in the series?

Mami because he responded to her heart (BUT did not know her yet)
Sayaka because he responded to her heart at the very point the guy acted up

And you implicitly agree he can teleport because you disagree he was following them or spying on them in any way

Not sure he can teleport. He was considerably bloodied and beat up, actively running away from Homura. If he could teleport, he should have been able to get away fine.

He probably possesses some sort of radar to know where all MG's and potential MG's are, then head in their direction. No idea how fast he can move, though. Through some sort of nebulous magical link, he can probably get a decent read on their feelings, similar to how telepathy works. Thus, he probably sensed Mami wishing to live, and showed up to offer her a contract, as it was the only way to save her. Then he sensed Sayaka wanted to make a contract and had a firm wish in mind, and thus he was there.

Quote:

The things you're asking him to do is like pointing a giant finger at himself "I'm bad". Eg appearing and say you can help out if she does X? Well if i see someone having an asthma attack and say "Hey, i'll help out if you pay me money and give me bjs". I'm sure even the most naive people would start to suspect that i don't really want to help you.

Well, he did do that when Mami was killed: "Contract with me, quick!" I'd suspect he could do it again when Madoka was threatened, but he didn't. Probably sensed she still didn't want to be an MG; in fact, she despaired hard enough to consider suicide, or at least dying, herself.

Quote:

So far he has not really been doing anything noticably suspicious to the characters in the anime.

And that's where a lot of us are coming from. Could he be evil? Sure. But a coincidence or two does not make me jump to the "evil!" conclusion.

Quote:

Yes because things happen and wishes are only a bandaid, not a cure. That hand cured? Sure until he falls down and breaks it or injures it seriously again or shatters his leg or loses his right hand, etc tec.

Feeling great because you "sacrificed" yourself for him? Well that lasts about a few minutes. Fighting witches? Well that lasts about the rest of your short life.

Final result = STUPID

Well, I suppose I can understand how you feel. I don't agree, but I can see it as a viewpoint. Question then:

If you were in an accident that paralyzed you from the waste down, would you want to be cured? Or would you take the angle: "Well, I'm paralyzed, and it's stupid to get cured when it will teach me something good!" ?

I suspect I know the answer, but I'd like to hear it. Just a note that most people would probably choose to be cured, so you'll have to accept your viewpoint is in the minority.

Well, he did do that when Mami was killed: "Contract with me, quick!" I'd suspect he could do it again when Madoka was threatened, but he didn't. Probably sensed she still didn't want to be an MG; in fact, she despaired hard enough to consider suicide, or at least dying, herself.

Actually if one ploy already failed, why try it again? You already noted that the poly failed before. The only thing that would make him try again would be because Homura might not show up this time.

But again, it a big neon sign saying "I help you only if i gain"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And that's where a lot of us are coming from. Could he be evil? Sure. But a coincidence or two does not make me jump to the "evil!" conclusion.

We'll see. The only thing to me that would prevent furball from being evil would be to maintain a plot twist later but that is a meta reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, I suppose I can understand how you feel. I don't agree, but I can see it as a viewpoint. Question then:

If you were in an accident that paralyzed you from the waste down, would you want to be cured? Or would you take the angle: "Well, I'm paralyzed, and it's stupid to get cured when it will teach me something good!" ?

I suspect I know the answer, but I'd like to hear it. Just a note that most people would probably choose to be cured, so you'll have to accept your viewpoint is in the minority.

Then you would be wrong, because i would wish for a cure because its for ME. Like Mami said to wish for yourself and her fewer regrets on her wish. That said, i would only do such a wish if it was within the period when i was adjusting to the condition.

After adjustment, it becomes desirable, not critical. The wish then becomes iffy

Now you should have asked, if i would cure someone close to me from paralysis. I would say depends. Is it terminal? If so how long? If its only waist down, sorry, i would rather spend the rest of my life making sure that person is ok rather than dying and leaving them alone without support.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

Interesting, I think I'm beginning to understand you better...

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

But again, it a big neon sign saying "I help you only if i gain"

If I agree with that, it means Kyube is selfish, which doesn't necessarily make him evil. All of us tend to harbor the thoughts of not doing anything unless we get something out of it. Even Kyube admitted as much, saying the wish was equivalent exchange for becoming an MG. Offer something, to get something in return.

But then you say this...

Quote:

Then you would be wrong, because i would wish for a cure because its for ME. Like Mami said to wish for yourself and her fewer regrets on her wish. That said, i would only do such a wish if it was within the period when i was adjusting to the condition.

You can go ahead and admit you're selfish. It's perfectly understandable for humans to be so; in fact, the tenants of capitalism depend upon it. But then, you can't fault Kyube for being evil, without pointing the evil finger back at yourself, just because he decides to be selfish.

Anyway, this conversation has veered off Madoka, and into Sayaka territory, and even drifted far off that. So to bring it back a bit... we only got here, because of the statement that Sayaka made a brave choice in becoming an MG, regardless of what kind of wish she made. It was a choice that Madoka couldn't make.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2011-02-01 at 12:39.
Reason: Let us not get personal over this!

Well... at least the Madoka topic now has enough discussion in it to match the other character topics... even if it's mostly arguments and Sayaka talk. =/

Anyway, I kind of hope Madoka doesn't become a magical girl. It's possible that she won't go through the same kind of thing Mami went through, but I've never really wanted to see her actually become a magical girl under these circumstances. Risking your entire life for a single wish? There's not even a time limit to it, I could see if you had to be a magical girl for x amount of years, but the rest of your life is a bit much. I wouldn't mind if Madoka never turns into a magical girl just because she's my favorite and I'm afraid of what'd happen to her. Part of me thinks nobody in the cast is going to survive through this series. .__.;

Anyway, I kind of hope Madoka doesn't become a magical girl. It's possible that she won't go through the same kind of thing Mami went through, but I've never really wanted to see her actually become a magical girl under these circumstances. Risking your entire life for a single wish? There's not even a time limit to it, I could see if you had to be a magical girl for x amount of years, but the rest of your life is a bit much. I wouldn't mind if Madoka never turns into a magical girl just because she's my favorite and I'm afraid of what'd happen to her. Part of me thinks nobody in the cast is going to survive through this series. .__.;

To be honest, the more I look at those episodes, the more I think that the whole series is going to be about the beginning of her journey as a magical girl, with the deconstruction part as dressing of the story. So, the best end I can think with the evidences given in the episodes so far is of the bittersweet kind.

I don't know how to say this without it sounding bad, but I'll have to: I'm kinda glad you're not a friend of mine. The friends I want, are those who would help me if they could, in the manner I would prefer. Sure, if I can't get cured, I'd like them to stick around and support me. But if they can, I'd like them to, simply because I'd do the same for them.

You seem to have ignored the fact that the "help" in this case means forfeiting your own life, which goes far beyond a simple "help if they could" as FlavorOfLife has pointed out. Thus the doctor example does not work as there is no harm on the doctor.

You need to recognize the fundamental difference between donation (what you are advocating) and sacrifice (what Madoka would have to do). No one has the right to request sacrifice.

Though I hate speculation (because most of the time, it ends up with people fighting with each other to prove who's right base on pretty much... nothing), i've just rewatched the ending (cause i like the song...) and i'm asking myself :

Is there anyone who maybe thought of Madoka not being just a sweet girl ?

I have read the time loop theory among other things, and Mentar speculations about how she could become a real magical girl.
But as she's seen in... what i think is Mephistopheles' eye at the end of the credits, I don't know if i must think of the interest such an entity put on this girl, or if by some plot device, something darker was turned into that adorable and loving character ?

What if she can put an end to this all MG/witch war (like it is kinda said in the prologue in Episode 1), because she started it ?

Though I hate speculation (because most of the time, it ends up with people fighting with each other to prove who's right base on pretty much... nothing), i've just rewatched the ending (cause i like the song...) and i'm asking myself :

Is there anyone who maybe thought of Madoka not being just a sweet girl ?

I have read the time loop theory among other things, and Mentar speculations about how she could become a real magical girl.
But as she's seen in... what i think is Mephistopheles' eye at the end of the credits, I don't know if i must think of the interest such an entity put on this girl, or if by some plot device, something darker was turned into that adorable and loving character ?

What if she can put an end to this all MG/witch war (like it is kinda said in the prologue in Episode 1), because she started it ?

Eg Sayaka. To me she's an idiot, wishing for something that could be solved without wishes just because it was expedient. Now she's probably going to drag Madoka in when she's about to get killed or similar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

To me he sounds like he is goading Kyoko to attack Sayaka because this is the way to drag Madoka in. Remember only Madoka dreamed of the furball, not Sayaka, so the final target is pretty much set.

Well as expected. If this continues poor Madoka will become a mahou shojo and condemn herself for an idiot. Fortunately Homura seems to have caught on in time

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

Yes, come on Madoka! Stop trying to be like that idiot who is fighting to protect the people of the town! Instead, you should be like Homura and Kyoka, and only fight for yourself. Madoka, you really need to become a selfish bitch, and either not get involved with anyone else and not care if they die, or if you are gonna become a Magical girl, then you should do it because you want grief seeds and a wish for yourself!

Yes, come on Madoka! Stop trying to be like that idiot who is fighting to protect the people of the town! Instead, you should be like Homura and Kyoka, and only fight for yourself. Madoka, you really need to become a selfish bitch, and either not get involved with anyone else and not care if they die, or if you are gonna become a Magical girl, then you should do it because you want grief seeds and a wish for yourself!

With the revelation that familiars are what turns into witches, the only way I see a non-selfish bitch as you put it succeeding here is if they can dismantle the entire system.

After all, without grief seeds (and being a righteous doer of justice, you'll go kill off all those evil familiars before they become witches of course), leaving you kind of out of luck there in terms of getting grief seeds.

Maybe their soul gems only fade from using their magic power. For some reason, I doubt it. Maybe Madoka's ultimate fate is indeed to break this system. I guess we'll have to see.

Yes, come on Madoka! Stop trying to be like that idiot who is fighting to protect the people of the town! Instead, you should be like Homura and Kyoka, and only fight for yourself. Madoka, you really need to become a selfish bitch, and either not get involved with anyone else and not care if they die, or if you are gonna become a Magical girl, then you should do it because you want grief seeds and a wish for yourself!

Total speculation. Put that in a speculation spoiler tag since just theory on you part unless your own standards don't apply to yourself

Yes, come on Madoka! Stop trying to be like that idiot who is fighting to protect the people of the town! Instead, you should be like Homura and Kyoka, and only fight for yourself. Madoka, you really need to become a selfish bitch, and either not get involved with anyone else and not care if they die, or if you are gonna become a Magical girl, then you should do it because you want grief seeds and a wish for yourself!