Has anyone noticed that most atheists… - Atheist Nexus2016-12-09T16:59:24Zhttp://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/has-anyone-noticed-that-most-atheists?commentId=2182797%3AComment%3A2124340&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noPernicious is right. Also, t…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-12:2182797:Comment:21424462013-01-12T16:08:16.395ZHumble Piehttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/HumblePie
<p>Pernicious is right. Also, this video is amazing!</p>
<p>Pernicious is right. Also, this video is amazing!</p> I really appreciate the feedb…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21409312013-01-10T10:44:10.257ZMatt--Lukinhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JimmyBazan
<p>I really appreciate the feedback from all you guys. I want to reply to a couple of your posts here, Allan, I'll start by quoting something you posted on page 5 on this thread:</p>
<blockquote><p>"However there is another ground on which the atheist needs to do work separate from the rejection—dealing with objectively unverifiable claims made in both Eastern and Western religion about individual psychological experiences which follow the search for enlightenment through meditation, prayer,…</p>
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<p>I really appreciate the feedback from all you guys. I want to reply to a couple of your posts here, Allan, I'll start by quoting something you posted on page 5 on this thread:</p>
<blockquote><p>"However there is another ground on which the atheist needs to do work separate from the rejection—dealing with objectively unverifiable claims made in both Eastern and Western religion about individual psychological experiences which follow the search for enlightenment through meditation, prayer, etc." </p>
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<p>Perhaps you're familiar with the work of Dr. Rick Strassman who aimed to do precisely what you've mentioned here. Strassman speculates in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" that the true culprit, so to speak, behind religious or mystical experience, what in Christianity you might call the "Beatific vision" or in eastern religion, you might hear as "satori" or "samadhi," may be a natural induction of endogenous DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine). So, he administered DMT intravenously to several volunteers as a part of his research, all of whom, low and behold, had very profound, life-changing experiences under the influence of this very peculiar entheogen, all of whom came back uttering tales of religious revelation, UFO abduction, enlightenment, etc.</p>
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<p>Shamans have been using substances to go into these altered states for millennia. Ayahuasca is a DMT-containing beverage, a kind of neurotransmitter cocktail and the use of it dates back thousands of years. Likewise, psilocybin, the psychoactive compound in the so-called 'psychedelic' mushroom is related to DMT and the ingestion of psychedelic mushrooms also dates back to thousands of years. These substances, if taken in a shamanic fashion meaning not taken recreationally but taken at 'effective doses,' can produce this so-called mystical experience on-demand.</p>
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<p>But I agree with you that these things aren't easily assessed. I've noticed that most people who don't have direct experience with these things have certain preconceived notions about the effects of these substances such as people tend to assume that what happens is basically what you find depicted in the movies, i.e. pink elephants, prancing leprechauns, what have you or some kind of projection of the personal subconscious or unconscious. Having experience with this stuff, personally, I can tell you that it is not at all like that. What instead seems to happen is you seem to tap into a kind of universal phenomenon. In other words, there are motifs in the experience that aren't reducible to the individual. So, that's one thing that makes this a really hard to tease a part of what is traditionally called the subjective or a "personal experience," it's instead defined as impersonal or a transpersonal experience. That everyone, in a way, kind of goes to the "same place," so to speak. It's as though maybe because we're all perturbing the same substrate: the mind, the brain, we see the mind electrified to a reality-obliterating, ego-shattering, mind-boggling intensity and suddenly you're witness to the mind of nature or the multiverse itself. They can produce as I said before, staggeringly titanic, colossal, God-like altered states of mind of which ordinary experience is unrecognizable, often referred to as "ego death." Powerful emotions equated to agapé along with a kind of intuitive omniscience or a kind of intense, wordless understanding or insight, etc. It's like turning circuit board of reality over and seeing the circuitry and having this profound intuitive understanding of how it's all wired together. <span>The so-called 'mystical' experience of the French philosopher Descartes i</span><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.answers.com/topic/ren-descartes"></a><span>nvolved a similar sudden revelation in which he saw in a flash the "order of all sciences," as he described it, he was also in a way obsessed with DMT with his obsession of the pineal gland which he referred to as "the seat of the soul" and which also is speculated to elaborate DMT in the human brain.</span><span><br/></span></p>
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<p>But truly, if you see all of religion as a kind of attempt to describe this experience, then all these have been failed attempts to coin the perfect metaphor. That's why I think to really assess it, you're going to have to have this experience for yourself. So, if you accept this kind of perennial philosophical rap as true, then you have an explanation of Mormonism, that Joseph Smith is just another person, another average human being like you and I, who in history had this colossal experience and went on to become the founder of a religion, likewise Christ, Mohammad, Gautama, etc. An experience that each of us has the potential to undergo. However, I might mention that after having this experience nowadays, you probably wouldn't go on to become the founder of a religion, you'd probably end up in a psychiatric ward if you aren't careful with your words about it. If you're articulate enough, maybe you'll start some DMT-awareness religion that'll solve M-Theory, put to rest the mystery of synchronicity, dissolve the theist vs. atheist issue, etc. I mean, who knows? As an aside, I'd like to add that The Atheist Experience show has never in any episode ever addressed DMT. Maybe someone should call in and let these guys know what's up or maybe someone should send Matt Dillahunty 70mg DMT through the mail. </p>
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<p>Ah! Well, I sort of went off in a tangent there, but I'm sure this sounds either redundant or familiar to you, Allan, as I know we've edged around this stuff in another thread. I'm not sure if you had taken a look at the link to another atheist forum's thread that I've been mentioning. The thread there goes over all these topics at a little more depth. I'll leave a couple of links if there's people out there that don't know what this stuff is… because despite the fact that people produce this naturally, most people don't know what it is. I don't think we'll ever put religion to rest unless we study these altered states and the substances that propel them.</p>
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<p style="text-align: center;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygWxXphYRos#t=1h15m" target="_blank">Graham Hancock discussing "Ayahuasca"</a></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGHMv73_j04#t=1h34m24s" target="_blank">Sam Harris on "Altered States"</a></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrj1X6TzEXo&amp;feature=results_video&amp;playnext=1&amp;list=PLED51E03885D76EB5" target="_blank">Terence McKenna describes a typical 5 dried experience with Psilocy...</a></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwElwFB4bb0#t=17s" target="_blank">Alan Watts - The Smell of Burnt Almonds</a></p> Certainly Mormons are Christi…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-07:2182797:Comment:21387502013-01-07T18:04:14.205ZDr. Allan H. Clarkhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/DrAllanHClark
<p>Certainly Mormons are Christians in their belief in Christ and the Bible, but Mormonism adds so much to traditional Christianity—an additional set of scriptures of such length and an alternative history of such substance that a legitimate question can be raised whether these amendments are sufficiently transformative that traditional theology is overwhelmed. Is Mormonism just another version of Christianity or is it something radically different despite the formal resemblance?</p>
<p>Certainly Mormons are Christians in their belief in Christ and the Bible, but Mormonism adds so much to traditional Christianity—an additional set of scriptures of such length and an alternative history of such substance that a legitimate question can be raised whether these amendments are sufficiently transformative that traditional theology is overwhelmed. Is Mormonism just another version of Christianity or is it something radically different despite the formal resemblance?</p> @ Lille: Uh, Mormons are Chri…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-07:2182797:Comment:21383912013-01-07T05:01:44.073ZJames Kzhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JamesKz
<p>@ Lille: Uh, Mormons are Christians. They believe in Jesus, the Gospels, &amp;c. They do not believe in the Protestant or Catholic versions of Jesus. The idea they are not Christians is the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, oft used by the Evangelical movement to paint anyone who does not agree with them as "unChristian" (or Satanic).</p>
<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon</a></p>
<p>@ Lille: Uh, Mormons are Christians. They believe in Jesus, the Gospels, &amp;c. They do not believe in the Protestant or Catholic versions of Jesus. The idea they are not Christians is the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, oft used by the Evangelical movement to paint anyone who does not agree with them as "unChristian" (or Satanic).</p>
<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon</a></p> Harris rescues Buddhism from…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-06:2182797:Comment:21379942013-01-06T20:08:48.709ZJames M. Martinhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JamesMMartin
<p>Harris rescues Buddhism from his sharpest condemnations (with extra-heavy emphasis on the jihadist elements of the Quran), but I wonder if he didn't take the Universe of Hinduist Thought into consideration and simply relegated it, mentally, to "Other Polytheism," or some other subcategory. In any case, one of the triumvirate of Harris-Hitchens-Dawkins points out that these beliefs have not, so far, created the bitter in-fighting by the monotheisms. Plus, Harris has "nice" things to say…</p>
<p>Harris rescues Buddhism from his sharpest condemnations (with extra-heavy emphasis on the jihadist elements of the Quran), but I wonder if he didn't take the Universe of Hinduist Thought into consideration and simply relegated it, mentally, to "Other Polytheism," or some other subcategory. In any case, one of the triumvirate of Harris-Hitchens-Dawkins points out that these beliefs have not, so far, created the bitter in-fighting by the monotheisms. Plus, Harris has "nice" things to say about Buddhism. When going through that stage in my life, I found remarkable things in, e.g. the Hua Yin School, because their major text makes an astonishing ancient understanding of quantum theory: the mirror universe of Hua Yin, infinite mirrors mirroring mirrors, subatomically corresponds to Bohm's vast interconnectedness (the implicate order), and for some time, that was my own belief. We are all, all of us, vastly interconnected. I don't need "God" to understand that, much less The Priesthood.</p> It is interesting to me that…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-06:2182797:Comment:21379742013-01-06T18:09:56.875ZLilliehttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/Lillie
<p>It is interesting to me that many religious people seem to accept a belief in "a god" as one and the same god.Therefore these people are accepted as "OK" whereas atheists are rejected. This must explain why many Christians considered Romney a Christian, when he is not.</p>
<p>It is interesting to me that many religious people seem to accept a belief in "a god" as one and the same god.Therefore these people are accepted as "OK" whereas atheists are rejected. This must explain why many Christians considered Romney a Christian, when he is not.</p> Western religions make (at le…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-06:2182797:Comment:21381752013-01-06T17:11:51.709ZDr. Allan H. Clarkhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/DrAllanHClark
<p>Western religions make (at least potentially) verifiable claims about the real world and Eastern religions (at least as presented in the West) apparently do not. It may be the case that some atheist arguments against Christianity do not apply to Buddhism and other Eastern religions.</p>
<p>Atheism itself does not (or should not) be seen as making verifiable claims about the real world, but simply as refusing belief in such claims. However there is another ground on which the atheist needs to…</p>
<p>Western religions make (at least potentially) verifiable claims about the real world and Eastern religions (at least as presented in the West) apparently do not. It may be the case that some atheist arguments against Christianity do not apply to Buddhism and other Eastern religions.</p>
<p>Atheism itself does not (or should not) be seen as making verifiable claims about the real world, but simply as refusing belief in such claims. However there is another ground on which the atheist needs to do work separate from the rejection—dealing with objectively unverifiable claims made in both Eastern and Western religion about individual psychological experiences which follow the search for enlightenment through meditation, prayer, etc. </p>
<p>Both Buddhism and Christianity religions identify kinds of spiritual advance occurring to those who seek them within themselves. Feelings of peace, unity with nature, clarity of vision are said to result from the continued practice. The claim is these represent a supra-sensory path to reality denied to ordinary sensation and by its nature it would seem to be irrefutable, that is, non-falsifiable.</p>
<p>Life is full of non-falsifiable claims, many of which are harmless and certainly the atheist will accept some without question. They often refer to individual psychological states in others. It is the claim of the Christian that he has direct experience of God or the Buddhist that his meditation opens a path to reality that need to be dealt with. When the sole evidence is the personal experience of others, claims can be hard to evaluate.</p>
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<p></p> Well, as I mentioned before,…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-06:2182797:Comment:21379502013-01-06T10:41:24.945ZMatt--Lukinhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JimmyBazan
<p>Well, as I mentioned before, the link I'm directing you towards are my own words. I am presenting you with evidence, in my own words, as a scientist would present in science. I'm not simply telling you, "Go there and look at some random website." It is a thread at another atheist forum where I have presented what I've been talking about here, basically, but at greater depth and in a kind of dialectic form among other atheists. This IS NOT what someone else has said, it is a conclusion based…</p>
<p>Well, as I mentioned before, the link I'm directing you towards are my own words. I am presenting you with evidence, in my own words, as a scientist would present in science. I'm not simply telling you, "Go there and look at some random website." It is a thread at another atheist forum where I have presented what I've been talking about here, basically, but at greater depth and in a kind of dialectic form among other atheists. This IS NOT what someone else has said, it is a conclusion based on evidence which I have evaluated and have presented to other atheists who like you, demand rational explanation.</p> It is not up to the atheist t…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-06:2182797:Comment:21379482013-01-06T09:23:28.602ZJames Kzhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JamesKz
<p>It is not up to the atheist to research every religious claim on the planet. It is up to the claimants to explain them.</p>
<p>In science, a scientist making a claim about a hypothesis does not say "go there and look at something." He presents the evidence, preferably in his own words. He also accounts for facts which do not fit his hypothesis.</p>
<p>Likewise with religion. In Christianity for example, 1 Peter 3:15 states that the believer must be able to give good reason for the joy of his…</p>
<p>It is not up to the atheist to research every religious claim on the planet. It is up to the claimants to explain them.</p>
<p>In science, a scientist making a claim about a hypothesis does not say "go there and look at something." He presents the evidence, preferably in his own words. He also accounts for facts which do not fit his hypothesis.</p>
<p>Likewise with religion. In Christianity for example, 1 Peter 3:15 states that the believer must be able to give good reason for the joy of his faith. Not that someone has to come along and try to disprove it.</p>
<p>As I said way back on page one of these responses, I am not interested in what someone else on a Website off in the middle of nowhere has to say about why I should believe about the claim of any religion, East or West. I am certainly not interested in going to the YouTube page you suggested that was in Russian and set off all the alarms on my security software.</p>
<p>I am interested in your opinion why I should believe it, and if you cannot give one to me, in your own words, can you even give one to yourself?</p>
<p>And regardless of any claim about any sort of god hypothesis, the proof of the claim is on the claimant.</p>
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<p>Next Apocalypse scheduled for May 19, 2013, according to Ronald Weinland, convicted of tax evasion last year.</p> Eastern religion has no more…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-06:2182797:Comment:21380592013-01-06T09:13:13.453ZMatt--Lukinhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JimmyBazan
<p>Eastern religion has no more evidence for the veracity of their claims according to who? Your own investigation? Well, this is precisely why I've offered that link there in my response to Michael OL to an atheist forum where these things are discussed more thoroughly, but it seems no one has taken the time to review it, because what it offers is a response to the burden of proof.</p>
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<p>For some people, atheism is a rejection of a religion. Why else would people say, "Reading the…</p>
<p>Eastern religion has no more evidence for the veracity of their claims according to who? Your own investigation? Well, this is precisely why I've offered that link there in my response to Michael OL to an atheist forum where these things are discussed more thoroughly, but it seems no one has taken the time to review it, because what it offers is a response to the burden of proof.</p>
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<p>For some people, atheism is a rejection of a religion. Why else would people say, "Reading the bible is the fastest route to atheism"? No, it's not. Reading the bible may be the fastest route to disregarding Christianity or Catholicism, but your investigation doesn't end there. I know some atheists who became atheists through reading the bible or something like that, often then automatically disregard all religion after dropping Christianity or some other western religion based on the bible, but that's because they assume that all religion is alike when they, in fact, are <i>not</i> alike.</p>