Despite training on and off for a few years, I don't have a lot of pics of my dogs doing bitework, and didn't have any video. It made me sad, but oh well. Imagine my surprise to find a video of Harry on his breeder's website! Man, I am so happy about this. I'm surprised she never told me that she made a video out of it, much less uploaded it!

So, here is the Hairball at a year old. Nothing Earth shattering, and certainly not his best work by far. But, I'm thrilled to have it, since I didn't think I had anything.

Second, so if I were a criminal and let's say a trained dog were gnawing on my shin would I use the "off" command to have them release?'

With my dogs, good luck....they're taught to fight through being yelled at by a decoy (or someone they're fighting), and it also tends to make them more defensive....which could make them less willing to let go in a fight

Oh, and our dogs would be gnawing on your bicep area...

However, that is a great vid! Awesome to see the big hairball in action!

What is the effectiveness of the dog against a human that's willing to hurt it back. Is this where gameness comes in to play?

I'm guessing the dog is quite effective against a "normal" person because of their lack of awareness in a defensive situation. What's is a typical procedure with bite work if for example your dog has them by let's say the bicep but that person uses their other arm to eye gouge or even worse starts repeatedly slashing or stabbing your dog with a knife?

Personally and I say this as a martial artist who's competed for years and has taught self defense... I'd give them my cash.

I can however see this being useful in a deploy your dog / run away to avoid rape situation. But statistically speaking your typical assailant is to some degree armed. Are the dogs trained in some way to adapt and overcome?

What is the effectiveness of the dog against a human that's willing to hurt it back. Is this where gameness comes in to play?

I'm guessing the dog is quite effective against a "normal" person because of their lack of awareness in a defensive situation. What's is a typical procedure with bite work if for example your dog has them by let's say the bicep but that person uses their other arm to eye gouge or even worse starts repeatedly slashing or stabbing your dog with a knife?

Personally and I say this as a martial artist who's competed for years and has taught self defense... I'd give them my cash.

I can however see this being useful in a deploy your dog / run away to avoid rape situation. But statistically speaking your typical assailant is to some degree armed. Are the dogs trained in some way to adapt and overcome?

Dogs that are trained to do this type of work are trained up usually from puppies. And it starts with prey work using the dog's desire to hunt, chase, and kill (prey drive). You get them chasing something like a rag....then, as the puppy gets older you get them to go after the tug, on up through a bite sleeve (where you can stop) on to a bite suit. These dogs are taught to bite, counter, keep countering, and not let go until commanded. We're teaching them to bite FULL mouthed (not little nips).

Harry was, as my dogs are, originally trained for sport work; some dogs that do sport will never be good at personal protection. On the other hand, in a sport dog, you can train some civil defense into them. You can do this, for example, through sneaking up on the dog, making the dog more oriented to the man rather than the equipment (this is especially helpful if your dog bites someone and rips a piece of clothing off, they'll go back for the man), using muzzle attacking, etc.

The dogs are trained to take stick hits across the back, have loud noise over their head, be yelled at, etc. Some dogs can't handle this, they may not have the nerve. However, those dogs with good nerve, and a little bit of fear in them, are very effective in this work. Fear is the major component of defense. See, prey drive will get a dog to go after someone, but you need defense to get the dog to stay in the fight. Skilled decoys will channel drives while a dog is in the grip to bring out fight drive.

I can promise that most people will NOT fight back against a dog. Yeah, it's easy to say what you would do if a dog bit you...but, again, we're not talking about a nip...we're talking about a full-gripped bite (as an example of how hard and full these dogs bite: Greg's dog Jue has no canines, and the rest of his teeth are mostly worn down, yet he can launch, catch the grip in the bicep, and hang on even during the fight). To give you an idea of how hard these dogs bite, we know someone who had a dog that bit a guy for real (in the leg). When the guy went to the hospital, the doctor said he had NEVER seen a dog bite like that one: he had bite marks in his shin bone.

These are dogs that can cause serious damage in one spot...if a dog's canines are latched into your bicep...well, in most cases, you'll go into shock...that's why people who are caught by K9's don't fight back, they are usually begging for the officer to get the dog off...Greg had a friend (who I know) who is a big guy, tough, etc. He always said what he would do if he ever got bit by a dog...well, Greg's old dog Chipper got him one day (and it wasn't a bad bite, it was mostly canine), and this guy essentially turned into a wuss...Even I've taken bites in the bite suit (or sleeve) and never have a problem, then when I got bit for real, all coherent thought went out of my head. Except to scream. Now, luckily, this dog wasn't trained, and came off when I screamed - if it was one of the trained dogs, they would've hung on.

Vertigo wrote:What is the effectiveness of the dog against a human that's willing to hurt it back. Is this where gameness comes in to play?

That's where fight drive/defensive drive comes into play. Blue THRIVES under pressure. He'll bite, but he bites like a bastard if there is a whip, stick, or gun present. Some dogs will naturally go go go in high pressure situations, others have to be trained to it.

iluvk9 wrote:Alex, something tells me you didn't like WHERE Harry was aiming to bite that decoy...ya know...being a man and all. Harry got rather darn close at one point.

Some of the dogs in my group are trained to take crotches . . . 'cause it's funny

"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France

Vertigo wrote:Second, so if I were a criminal and let's say a trained dog were gnawing on my shin would I use the "off" command to have them release?'

First, ask Kendell where Riggs likes to bite.

Second Riggs doesn't "off" when I tell him to, so I doubt he will when you tell him to.

Seriously though, most bitework dogs that I know are trained in other languages so even if they would out when you told them to, you'd have to have the presence of mind to think of the off command in another language, then give it in a "command" voice, and you'd likely need to freeze up as well. Honestly, most dogs have never actually had the REAL thing and will act very differently when they have a bite on someone who is giving them REAL feedback.

Vertigo wrote:What's is a typical procedure with bite work if for example your dog has them by let's say the bicep but that person uses their other arm to eye gouge or even worse starts repeatedly slashing or stabbing your dog with a knife?

Having had a couple of live bites that were not planned, the last thing on my mind was how to hurt the dog back. The first thing was how to get the dog off. If you were going to fight back, you would need to do it rather calmly, if you move too fast you may end up drawing a redirect and then you will have two (or more) serious injuries.

I was expecting one of my bites and still got chewed on pretty well. It was from a Spaniel, so it was a lot of quick bites. It was still blinding and I had to concentrate on not jerking my hand out of his mouth, I had to slowly pull it out while he continued to chew on my fingers.

Vertigo wrote:Are the dogs trained in some way to adapt and overcome?

Yes. But that is not an appropriate discussion on a forum.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

Vertigo wrote:Wow very cool. That's a whole lot to think about. Thanks so much for the cool stories and responses.

I personally don't want Montgomery to even know he can bite a person so I'm guessing that bite work is good to avoid - although I can see that maybe controlling it is better than ignoring it.

But wow that's is all really, really cool.

Here's the thing, teaching a dog to bite doesn't make a dog not social. Except for Jue and Cy, our dogs are very social (even Cy is social as long as he comes to you). I view the bite command as nothing more than an obedience command...so, our dogs are not MORE likely to bite someone...