Zeek

I think Craig has a good point, look at these verses and see which came first,

a choice given after knowledge being revealed;

then

wrong choice

then

turned over to a depraved mind.

Thank-you Zeek.

Craig, when do you think that this happens to each of us on an individual level?? at a certain age?? when is knowledge of Him given to us? and we are mature enough to make a decision of reject or accept?? and once turned over to a depraved mind, is "free will" then taken away??

free will is the same as self will to me and there is the self righteous and the righteousness of God [ Jesus Christ ]

and to look the best a self righteous man can offer is anger and cruelty and violence , thats not what Jesus Christ teaches us to be , there are better things for you ,, 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. Gen 49

the last or end days of the tribesof Israel

5"Simeon and Levi are brothers; Their swords are implements of cruel / violence. 6"Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly;Because in their anger they slew men, And in their self-will they lamed oxen. 7"Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; And their wrath, for it is cruel. will disperse them in Jacob, And scatter them in Israel. [/b] Some of these still are not gathered in CHRIST BODY !

You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

that is the same difference , come on now , lets be real for crying out loud .. two ways to see it and when you dance around it trying to make it 3 or 4 , you have got confusion , its simple really the self righteous will /desire and the righteousness of God /Jesus he becomes your will /desire righteousness

we confuse the issue all the time with the " beating " around the bush reasoning

Craig, when do you think that this happens to each of us on an individual level?? at a certain age?? when is knowledge of Him given to us? and we are mature enough to make a decision of reject or accept?? and once turned over to a depraved mind, is "free will" then taken away??

1 John 5:16-19If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

There is a sin (singular) that leads to death, and there is sin (plural) that does not lead to death. So, if this is true, one can sin and not be turned over to a depraved mind; this is the course of means they will not die. That means it happens to us on an individual level, at any age, because the knowledge of Him is given to us the moment we are created.

#1. From creation:Romans 1:20, 19For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

He has from the beginning made himself known and plain to all mankind.

#2. From His Spirit:Acts 2:16-18No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: " 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

He has given his spirit to all mankind, even His servants. Yes, believe it.

John 16:7-11But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

The world, and even those who are of this world, have no excuse.

#3. All mankind is already reconciled through Christ Jesus to God.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Ambassadors of Christ have gone out into the world with the Message of the Gospel, all mankind is reconciled. The choice remains, God has reconciled you, we implore you on Christ's behalf, be yourself reconcile to God.

How does one be reconciled to God? Stop pursuing the sinful nature.

Romans 8:12-14Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Now if you continue to live by the sinful nature, you will commit the sin which leads to death. That is when you have lost all freedom to do what is right. Once you have been turned over to a depraved mind, there is no more, you will stand along side your Master, the Prince who stands condemned. They have received their reward in full already.

However, we know that is not how it ends. The wicked will be raised to aionios Kolasis; in other words, they will be corrected and perfected in Love, so that they may see exactly what it was and turned from it. They will drink of the waters of life that flow freely, and the leaves of the Tree of Life which is administered by those in the inside. This process of correction is done under the supervision of the Priesthood of God, by the Authority of the High Priest, Jesus Christ in submission to the Father, God who is Love.

Martin, why are you so passive instead of pro-active? Let me give you a small history of Tentmaker Forums, every 3 years it is shut down because of constant influx of hyper-soveriegntists (the unbiblical view of God's Sovereignty which denies man's will), and ex-Calvinists. There is no such thing as 'passive' resistance to a lie because that only feeds the lie and justifies it, ban it like the serpentseed and mystic doctrine is banned and let us get some real healing in those who are truly seeking what is true.

What a post filled with INTENTIONAL and UNBIBLICALLY based PROPAGANDA!

A BLATANT attempt to influence the Administrator of this forum to BACK ...YOU... and YOUR UNBIBLICAL VIEWS... by stating WITHOUT necessary BIBLICAL foundation that COMPLETE or ABSOLUTE Sovereignty (GOD working ALL THINGS after HIS WILL) is a LIE... In favor of the UNBIBLICAL belief of "FREE WILL"... which remains and SHALL REMAIN, ...UNSTATED in Scripture...

To begin with, GOD created ALL THINGS... to include any abilities and powers (choice) that might be exercised by MEN in this realm of TIME...

By NATURE, ...Men "choose" according to the FLESH (James 1:14 / Gen 3:6)... until the TRUTH (Word of God -- John 14:6 / John 8:32) MAKES men FREE by DRAWING them TO IT (John 12:32)

Man is HELPLESS to abide in and by TRUTH, and only GOD is able to bring them TO IT... By HIS doing, without the (enslaved) "will" of man in assistance: (John 6:44 / John 14:6)

Once men have been DRAWN... the process of the WORD of GOD, begins its work of transformation of each "FLESHLY will--ENSLAVED" man (Rom 7 - entire chapter / 1 Cor 15:31 / Gal 2:20 / Eph 2:10)...

What SCRIPTURE ...actually DOES SAY about the SOVEREIGNTY of GOD and its INFLUENCE concerning the PATHWAY which MEN walk:

Eph 1:11...in Whom also, we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED [a DIVINE proclamation/condition which cannot be avoided] according to the PURPOSE of HIM [GOD] who WORKETH [being actively involved] ...ALL THINGS... [which does not EXEMPT any "thing"], after the COUNSEL [advice or direction], of HISOWN ...WILL...[determination, purpose, decree]

Your deceptive attempt left out the following: Tentmaker forums was shut down for these reasons...(1) it got overloaded for the server... and (2), there were TOO many categories which strayed, from the message of UR...

Gary Amirault wished a FOCUS more intended toward the message of UR (a message which ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY or DIVINE CONTROL, certainly does not obscure, nor detract from)... and so the forum was revamped to gain that focus... and resultingly, many categories were eliminated... NONE of said "eliminated categories" were pointed toward DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY...

As far as "hyper-sovereignty" (your "theological and unbiblical" term)... is there anything NOT under GOD's CONTROL Craig?

You maintain, that man has "FREE WILL", which means that he CHOOSES independently of DIRECT influence of GOD OR the "devil"... and accordingly, you have placed that "WILL" ...OUTSIDE... of Him and HIS CONTROL... Also, thereby stripping Him of the title of ALMIGHTY... for you assert that some "might" (power) exists (your "will") and belongs EXCLUSIVELY to YOU...

This post is a POLITICAL attempt to DISENGAGE any OPPOSITION to YOUR VIEW = Propaganda...

The BIBLE (Word of God) does NOT state that man has "FREE WILL"...

CHOICE is NOT free will... "CHOICE" is enacted by such as insects, animals, and computers...

free will is the same as self will to me and there is the self righteous and the righteousness of God [ Jesus Christ ]

and to look the best a self righteous man can offer is anger and cruelty and violence , thats not what Jesus Christ teaches us to be , there are better things for you ,, 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. Gen 49

the last or end days of the tribesof Israel

5"Simeon and Levi are brothers; Their swords are implements of cruel / violence. 6"Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly;Because in their anger they slew men, And in their self-will they lamed oxen. 7"Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; And their wrath, for it is cruel. will disperse them in Jacob, And scatter them in Israel. [/b] Some of these still are not gathered in CHRIST BODY !

You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

that is the same difference , come on now , lets be real for crying out loud .. two ways to see it and when you dance around it trying to make it 3 or 4 , you have got confusion , its simple really the self righteous will /desire and the righteousness of God /Jesus he becomes your will /desire righteousness

we confuse the issue all the time with the " beating " around the bush reasoning

please consider this a simple statement and TRUTH ...

The issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

free will is the same as self will to me and there is the self righteous and the righteousness of God [ Jesus Christ ]

and to look the best a self righteous man can offer is anger and cruelty and violence , thats not what Jesus Christ teaches us to be , there are better things for you ,, 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. Gen 49

the last or end days of the tribesof Israel

5"Simeon and Levi are brothers; Their swords are implements of cruel / violence. 6"Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly;Because in their anger they slew men, And in their self-will they lamed oxen. 7"Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; And their wrath, for it is cruel. will disperse them in Jacob, And scatter them in Israel. [/b] Some of these still are not gathered in CHRIST BODY !

You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

that is the same difference , come on now , lets be real for crying out loud .. two ways to see it and when you dance around it trying to make it 3 or 4 , you have got confusion , its simple really the self righteous will /desire and the righteousness of God /Jesus he becomes your will /desire righteousness

we confuse the issue all the time with the " beating " around the bush reasoning

please consider this a simple statement and TRUTH ...

The issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

free will is the same as self will to me and there is the self righteous and the righteousness of God [ Jesus Christ ]

and to look the best a self righteous man can offer is anger and cruelty and violence , thats not what Jesus Christ teaches us to be , there are better things for you ,, 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. Gen 49

the last or end days of the tribesof Israel

5"Simeon and Levi are brothers; Their swords are implements of cruel / violence. 6"Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly;Because in their anger they slew men, And in their self-will they lamed oxen. 7"Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; And their wrath, for it is cruel. will disperse them in Jacob, And scatter them in Israel. [/b] Some of these still are not gathered in CHRIST BODY !

You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

that is the same difference , come on now , lets be real for crying out loud .. two ways to see it and when you dance around it trying to make it 3 or 4 , you have got confusion , its simple really the self righteous will /desire and the righteousness of God /Jesus he becomes your will /desire righteousness

we confuse the issue all the time with the " beating " around the bush reasoning

please consider this a simple statement and TRUTH ...

The issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

Craig , my 20 year old brother drown in the Galveston bay area of ocean his will/desire was to swim in the ocean , he had just arrived that day and by 11 that evening he was dead floating and was not found till a fisherman found him face down around 10 that next day the undertow got him and his choice to swim there got him killed right ? but he had no Idea of the danger , because he had never been there before .. this example is just life when we get in a car and drive we can be killed by no fault of your own doing and I see them as choices to drive are a risk in itself , they are like everything in life we have no guarantee of tomorrow and remaining in this flesh body and I know there is more to life than this .....

The issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

Craig, are you saying that if God does not open a person's eyes, ears and heart to the gospel to believe it that they, by their own supposed free will can believe the gospel anyway? Scripture please.

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Craig, are you saying that if God does not open a person's eyes, ears and heart to the gospel to believe it that they, by their own supposed free will can believe the gospel anyway? Scripture please.

When will you stop with the erroneous reasoning? Let me ask you a question, "Tony N, are you saying that you wear woman's clothing without first shopping for it?" I don't need to prove which was not even said, because any answer would justify your fallacy. Do you understand?

Where did I ever say that God does not open a person's eyes, ears and heart first? I didn't! Once God makes it clear, and He has, you have a choice either believe and live, or don't and die. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

#1. From creation:Romans 1:20, 19For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

#2. From His Spirit:Acts 2:16-18No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

#3. All mankind is already reconciled through Christ Jesus to God.2 Corinthians 5:18-21All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This does not exclude the numerous prophets sent out, the numerous disciples sent out, and the numerous apostles sent out.

The issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

"One of the greatest Reformational works was written by Luther and is called The Bondage of the Will. Luther believed this was his greatest work. It is still available to buy today and deals with a refutation of Erasmus' denial of total depravity and a setting forth of the biblical picture of man's total inability to save himself." quote from: http://www.apuritansmind.com/Reformation/Reformation.htm

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Thanks for the link. However, what Luther has to say, is irrelevant. His doctrine of Salvation was skewed by his understanding of the final destiny of the both the righteous and the wicked. Believe it or not, that actually does effect what people think salvation is and how does one come by it. When one comes to the realization that in the END of all things, all mankind is in God and God is all in all, then salvation is not what you were taught in Sunday School in any traditional mainstream denomination. Once a person recognizes this fact, then it is easier to understand the truth; God has made it possible for all to experience salvation, but not all will, the reason is their choice in the matter.

In my early walk with God I experienced much more what the apostle says:Romans 7:16-23 . . .16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I cannot quite call this "free will."

The next verse he cries out wondering who will deliver him from the bondage of his will. If we are not free, even after we have come into experiencing the Holy Spirit, why do we try to assert we're free to choose the Holy Spirit in the first place. Do the immediately preceding words "free to choose the Holy Spirit" mean we are uninfluenced to choose God? It seems we begin with God because of His dealings with us and freeing us enough to welcome and desire Him.

I know that after I exercised my will, devoting myself against myself to go God's way with all the heart, mind, soul, strength I could muster, I still was unable to free myself from the sinful nature that I had. I assumed that being born again meant I was changed from that sinful nature into something after the Divine nature, however immature. Even yet, though I attempted to disassociate that sinfulness from my identity, I was still subject to sin. I couldn't stop sinning no matter how much I wanted (or willed) to or how hard I tried. Often I wondered whether the anointing, the quickening of the Holy Spirit, was to enable me to do God's will, strengthening my hand in the battle or change me so I wouldn't need to war. Many at this point drop out of the whole endeavor to be Jesus' disciple at all. This should make it clear that these are not cold abstractions but vital things to solve for spiritual life.

I could go on and on. Maybe I will eventually come to explain how God set me free, but this involves what was a life or death matter for me and I believe for many others who come into an experience with God. It is very important for those continuing in the salvation of God that this be answered according to God's truth. Thank God, some years ago I grew beyond this point; but those giving me a pep talk then about how the real truth is my will was actually free pushed me into the depths of condemnation, thinking I'd crossed the line somehow into having been given over by God to a condemned or "reprobate" mind. This became a torturous despair over a period of years when I felt like a kind of zombie, a hopeless victim and unable to help myself.

Understand, this long despair came after 20 or so years of diligent seeking in the word with prayer and fasting. I also read books, consulted secular and religious counseling authorities, had hands laid on me, cast out devils...everything I knew. For about 10 years I cast wicked thoughts out again and again, maybe every 5 minutes, or oftener at some periods, for many years. I supported such inner struggle with Bible verses I now know I hadn't very closely looked at, but this was all I knew. Here's one: "(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." (2 Cor 10:4-6) This inward rejection of unclean lusts, casting them down, I was continually in was the fulfillment of such verses, or so I thought. So I persisted; yet, it seemed the harder I fought the stronger the evil was. To exercise my will assertively agreeing with God against sin didn't free me from sin.

Then I came to another understanding. Scripture says, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" (Rom 6:3) I understood this way of prayer God had recently brought me into, (via negativa) "Be still and know that I am God," was consistent with the faith that I was His, born of Him, and those impulses to the contrary I could ignore as though not there because I was another person, one born of God and dead to my former life. This seemed a little more successful at first; but, the wickedness re-emerged in areas of my personality even less under my control than when I was aggressively fighting. Never the less, I continued for some maybe 10 years applying this method. To exercise my will receptively agreeing with God against sin didn't free me from sin. This was followed by tortured years of hopelessness and sin.

While I didn't have such words yet (and I've offered only a greatly truncated description of my experience,) I eventually discovered that there are only two ways our soul can function: via movens and via recipiens. I spent years actively fighting, assertively working and then years in receptive, passive waiting on God. The will most people refer to when they speak of "free" will is not the flesh's impulses, the will of the flesh, but is rather a function of the soul. I exercised mine to agree with God and it was to no avail. I knew I had exhausted my repertoire and was cast into a pit that no one seemed to address. Among other things, I searched for titles something like, "How to Stop Sinning." Do you realize I only found two tracts dealing with this subject? Book after book on forgiveness, but none on victory that worked.

I know the answer and I'm not going to tell you for now. I want to see who knows it.

While some of what those who would teach others say has practical application or has come out of real life situations, much is armchair abstractions, spun out of pieced together Bible fragments and theory. I hope all you who seem so convinced about what you're saying, regardless of your positions, would apply the balm you believe you hold to the narrative of a very representative man who has seen his tortured life go down the drain though he willfully gave himself over to do the will of God. Not only how can he get free, entering into God's salvation; but, how can your doctrines be applied in his life?

« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 07:01:51 AM by reFORMer »

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

I honestly love you both as brothers in the Lord and ReFormer there are so many I am blessed to be able to sit at the TM table with all I will tell you the scriptures along with the Spirit always chasten me and that is what I try and to to the best of my ability

an example I really try to live up to , i fail at times but have not given up ...yet

Wisdom from Above

13Who among you is wise and understanding?

Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.

14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart,

do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth.

15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above,

but is earthly, natural, demonic.

16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.

17But the wisdom from above is first pure,

then peaceable, gentle, reasonable,

full of mercy and good fruits,

unwavering, without hypocrisy.

18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Craig, are you saying that if God does not open a person's eyes, ears and heart to the gospel to believe it that they, by their own supposed free will can believe the gospel anyway? Scripture please.

When will you stop with the erroneous reasoning? Let me ask you a question, "Tony N, are you saying that you wear woman's clothing without first shopping for it?" I don't need to prove which was not even said, because any answer would justify your fallacy. Do you understand?

Where did I ever say that God does not open a person's eyes, ears and heart first? I didn't! Once God makes it clear, and He has, you have a choice either believe and live, or don't and die. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

Sorry Craig but I fail to see how asking a question of you is erroneous reasoning.Furthermore, I see you really did not directly answer my question.

You did write this:

Quote

The issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

Yet we find that if it were that simple, questions would not need to be asked.

Rather than answer my question as to if God has to open a person's eyes ears and heart to believe you just say: "Once God makes it clear" (whatever that means) "You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do."

But is this Biblical? The strange thing is that the Scriptures are dead set against this idea that "how you got there is your choice."

You want to know Whose choice gets you there:Rom 8:30 Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also."

You see that, Craig? There is no doubt in God's designating, calling, justifying and glorifying. He is in charge from the beginning of the designating to the glorifying. The choice is all His.

Eph 1:4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,

Now let's get back to your free will . . .

All hail Free Will! All Free Will! All hail almighty Free will! The new god of the universe has arisen and it is "Free Will."

All hail the power of free wills choice let angels prostrate fall.Give it the royal diadem and crown it Lord of all!Give it the royal diadem and crown it Lord of all!

God must bow to this new deity called Free Will!

God is utterly powerless against such a mighty power!

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Sorry Craig but I fail to see how asking a question of you is erroneous reasoning.Furthermore, I see you really did not directly answer my question.

So you do wear woman's clothing, and buy them yourself, Tony?

Read again. Your question is fallacy, it is called "Loaded Question." Therefore it won't be answered directly because it is irrelevant.

For the rest, you do not know what you are talking about since your argument is based on your presumptions and not fact.

Quote

Eph 1:4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,

Nothing you said here has anything to do with what either Martin, Paul or myself have even mentioned in this thread. God choose all mankind to be holy and flawless in His sight, this has nothing to do with freedom of will.

Maybe you want to actually read the discussion and not rely on your own understanding next time, it actually helps.

Well, I am sorry if I intruded on everyone's free will with my belief in the sovernity of God. Craig seems to want to get rid of those who believe in the sovernity of God. I guess I should just stay off of this forum since half of the time I can't get on it anyway. I certainly don't want to cause any friction with any of my beliefs. I respect those who don't agree with me and I have learned a lot from you all. From now on I will just read.

By the way Tony I completely agree with what you have said about free will and our will.

One thing I would like to ask everyone that believes in free will, or a will at all. WHERE DID YOU GET IT? HOW DID YOU ACQUIRE THIS WILL?

CHB

CHB, it is nice to see that there are at least a couple people here that get it. We are not better than anyone because we get it. And I know you know that. I just don't want them to think we are snobbish. After all, it is up to God who gets it and who doesn't. (It really is you free willers). Getting it is not a matter of the human will. Some day God will allow them to see it too. Until that time we must be kind and considerate and loving in dealing with those who don't quite get it yet.

I hope you don't just read the boards here. It is always nice to hear more than one side of an argument.

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Sorry Craig but I fail to see how asking a question of you is erroneous reasoning.Furthermore, I see you really did not directly answer my question.

So you do wear woman's clothing, and buy them yourself, Tony?

Read again. Your question is fallacy, it is called "Loaded Question." Therefore it won't be answered directly because it is irrelevant.

For the rest, you do not know what you are talking about since your argument is based on your presumptions and not fact.

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Eph 1:4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,

Nothing you said here has anything to do with what either Martin, Paul or myself have even mentioned in this thread. God choose all mankind to be holy and flawless in His sight, this has nothing to do with freedom of will.

Maybe you want to actually read the discussion and not rely on your own understanding next time, it actually helps.

The question was asked "why is it hard for some to believe all will go to heaven some day?"I replied:Because God keeps it hid from them:

You then replied:Partially correct. The reason God keeps it hid from them, is because they rejected it first, and so God gave them over to a depraved mind.

Then I brought up the fact that God hid these things from people and that they were hardened, blinded and hearts heardened beginning in Isaiah's day which continued into Christ's day. So in fact, God hid it from them by blinding them, stopping up their ears and hardening their hearts before they could do anything good or bad in Christ day since the hardening began in Isaiah's day before they were even born in Christ's day.

Secondly, Craig, you keep harping on Romans 1 as if it proves your unprovable assertion of free will.

Let's look at Romans 1 and see how wrong you are.Rom 1:18-24 For God's indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men who are retaining the truth in injustice, (19) because that which is known of God is apparent among them, for God manifests it to them."

You see that, Craig? This is not talking about all mankind but a certain group of people who were retaining the truth but were doing so in injustice (sounds like the Jews to me).

And "that which is known of God is apparent among them for God manifests it to them."So these people knew what was known of God. God didn't say: Hey! please choose to believe what I am manifesting among you of your own free wills!

(20) For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides His imperceptible power and divinity, for them to be defenseless,

These people were defenseless. They knew.

(21) because, knowing God, not as God do they glorify or thank Him, but vain were they made in their reasonings, and darkened is their unintelligent heart."

These people already knew God but the problem was they did not Glorify God as God. These people believed in free will and didn't think God could or did control them in the least. So they were MADE (against their wills) vain in their reasonings. and their hearts were darkened against their wills.

(22) Alleging themselves to be wise, they are made stupid,

They alleged that they were wise but they are MADE stupid (against their wills).

These men who were retaining the truth in injustice were:(23) and they change the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of a corruptible human being and flying creatures and quadrupeds and reptiles. (24) Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves,

God then, against their wills, gave them over in the lusts of their hearts . . . .

So everything I have said so far is germain to the subject. Just because you say it isn't does not mean it isn't.

Peace bro

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

I still think using the word "free" connected to will is a big contributor to confusion. It is not used that way in the N.T. and where "free will" is used in the O.T. it isn't with the same conotations that seem to drive freewill discussions.

Why not just use the word "will" for whatever you're talking about? I do think we'd be more Biblical.

Anybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin? Just how do we stop sinning?

« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 03:02:22 AM by reFORMer »

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Tony, both you and CHB are wrong. You don't get it. You do not know what you are arguing about and to whom. If the people in this board believed in ET, then maybe you would have a case, but the people arguing against do not, therefore YOU DO NOT GET IT. Your points are irrelevant because nobody believes what you are saying they believe concerning free-will, therefore YOU DO NOT GET IT. You continue erroneously to attribute self-determination to free-will, and for that you have demonstrated yourself the fool since nobody here has every explained free will as the power of self-determination. CHB was rebuked, WillieH was rebuked and now you are being rebuked for your constant ignorance of this issue.

Self-determination theory (SDT) is a general theory of human motivation and is concerned with the choices people make with their own free will and full sense of choice, without any external influence and interference.

It seems you don't even know that which you espouse. "Self determination . . . is concerned wich choices people make with their own free will . . without any external influence and interference . . ." from God.

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

I still think using the word "free" connected to will is a big contributor to confusion. It is not used that way in the N.T. and where "free will" is used in the O.T. it isn't with the same conotations that seem to drive freewill discussions.

(23) and they change the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of a corruptible human being and flying creatures and quadrupeds and reptiles. (24) Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves,

Sounds like they are worshipping false gods. Anybody know specifically what gods they were worshipping?

Tony, both you and CHB are wrong. You don't get it. You do not know what you are arguing about and to whom. If the people in this board believed in ET, then maybe you would have a case, but the people arguing against do not, therefore YOU DO NOT GET IT.

First... you argue from a FALSE platform... Assuming that others do not know WHAT they are arguing about, and especially with WHOM...

Trust me, we all are well aware of WHOM, no matter what our individual knowledge holds concerning this issue...

In the observation of others... it is YOU that DO NOT GET IT...

Second... your determination of others as WRONG, is only by comparison to yourself... and YOUR opinions & observances... Which are as POTENTIALLY FALLIBLE as anyone else.

You continue erroneously to attribute self-determination to free-will, and for that you have demonstrated yourself the fool since nobody here has every explained free will as the power of self-determination. CHB was rebuked, WillieH was rebuked and now you are being rebuked for your constant ignorance of this issue.

First and most importantly... YOU have no right to address Tony with the word "FOOL"... CHRIST noted this type of labeling of a brother, as a dire endangerment (Matt 5:22)

Second... You have hardly REBUKED anyone... don't make me laugh... okay... I cant help it!

You need more than just YOUR words or OPINION, to establish a REBUKE...

To this point, you are REBUKELESS...

BTW... are you ready to LOVE and BLESS me yet brother Craig, as the Savior INSTRUCTED?