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Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Yeah, sure! I guess your Hassie had something to do with that shot. What focal length did you use? I would guess, but there isn't enough context there. Okay, I will guess anyway. I am guessing that there was a lot more image, and that you used an 80 or 100.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Originally Posted by carstenw

Yeah, sure! I guess your Hassie had something to do with that shot. What focal length did you use? I would guess, but there isn't enough context there. Okay, I will guess anyway. I am guessing that there was a lot more image, and that you used an 80 or 100.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Okay I got two models for Jack and I to shoot on the 9th. One blonde and one brunette with excellent complexion for our test, also hair and makeup artist. Renting a studio for this and Jack is flying over . Also this is being paid for by US so that is our disclaimer on all of it. Just thought people should know this is out of our pockets to do this. BTW if any forum member wants to donate to our efforts you can certainly do that. Contact Jack for that info. We also have a a P40+ and new DF body being sent in from Capture Integration for our tests and that is the kindness from Dave and his crew to support our efforts.

Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Originally Posted by carstenw

Damn, I double-guessed myself. My first feeling was 180 or 150. Oh well, I lose.

Well, if she had warts and was toothless I don't think you would care about the lens!!!

Back on topic, I understand everyone wanting to get the best image they can and if they believe that a new piece of glass or a new camera will do it for them - wonderful. But I will always think that content trumps equipment. That is just what I believe.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Equipment is a funny thing. It has two main appeals, maybe even three.

Yes, it is merely a tool in the service of a vision or idea you want to create.

Yet, it does have some appeal as an object unto itself. We all do have a good eye for good looking, well made things.

And then there is some delight in mastering something ... to get control over it. In fact that can become an addiction by itself ... man over machine.
I've worked with hundreds of professional "photo techs" that thrived on mastering the technical aspects of any gear, but couldn't shoot worth a darn.

I have a very rudimentary attitude toward gear ... if I succeed with it then I love it and think it is the most beautiful thing made. If I don't succeed with it, I think it's a piece of crap and ugly ... and I don't care who uses it or how beautiful or wonderful they think it is.

I have an Elephantine memory for gear that failed me. I resent losing one good shot because something didn't do what I was lead to believe it'd do, and I never forget or forgive. (I've been around long enough now to know when I failed, and when it was the tool that failed).

I also truly believe what you select can influence your outcome ... based on your biases and beliefs.

-Marc

Marc, you make a good point here. I have found that new gear sometimes drives my desire to shoot more and try new things (sorta along the lines of our "mastery" case). Every once in a while a new camera comes along that revitalizes ones photography. I keep hearing the mantra that its the photographer not the camera, but there is no doubt the camera does influence the photographer's psyche good or bad.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

I've said it before and I'll say it again...
Price aside, the S2 is everything I want in a camera. I'd love to use one because I actually need many of the features to make the kind of images I want. Resolution is one important thing, but weather sealing and handling are two just as important features for me. At the moment I am probably best served sticking with my Mamiya 7ii kit and film, drum scanning and being careful in the rain. I like the bigger neg area and the pictorial effect it gives with regard to depth of field so going to 35mm or even the new S2 format might be a step in the wrong direction anyway when considering I need a certain continuity between the look of images in my current long term projects. I'm waiting for the day that this kind of technology is in the realms of affordability for art and documentary photographers that don't make a killing from client based work. In the mean time, I guess the old film based MF and LF equipment is more than good enough to deliver the goods when not under strict time constraints and deadlines. For many of you, I suspect you're on the opposite end of the spectrum from me and time is money. I don't envy you!

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Originally Posted by tjv

... Price aside, the S2 is everything I want in a camera. I'd love to use one because I actually need many of the features to make the kind of images I want. Resolution is one important thing, but weather sealing and handling are two just as important features for me.

+1

Get that 350mm APO-Elmar-S on the market, a 1.4x APO-Extender-S and an extension tube and the price will seem a little less a problem for me.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Am I the only person here who thinks the S2 should have came with a CMOS sensor that offered superior high asa to any CCD, with a lower cost? What's the point of a camera that is targeted for people to do handheld photography but has limited high asa?
With high end 35mm sensors being so good now the only reason to shoot MF is for the large sensor (somewhat).

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Well Sharokin I have the same oppinion, that a S2 with a 39Mp CMOS, with all modern features and no AA Filter would have been a much better and interesting choice. However most here will tell you how much better their loved CCDs really are ;-)

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Does anyone even make CMOS sensors that large? I'm wondering if it's more a supply and manufacturing cost and / or technology issue than a deliberate preference for CCDs. I like the low ISO ccd images better but that's splitting hairs. What I'd really want is a MF version of my D700.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

CMOS sensors have no different size constraints compared to CCD.
OTOH, most CMOS sensors are custom chips entirely and development cost would be much much higher. This is one reason why smallish camera manufacturers use CCD since the do not have the manufacturing scale to amortize the incremental R&D.
The primary reason to select a CCD sensor is the tradeoff between a to d converter linearity and image noise. Off-sensor a to d converters are potentially better, but CMOS sensors can be made to readout faster. Although theoretically, there is no noise difference between the two, system level noise often pollutes images made with CCD sensors before shot noise does.
-bob

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

That is one of the main problems, MF is stuck with the stuff Kodak and Dalsa gives them. (simplified) I am still quite sure, that we won't see any real innovations until one of the large companies does change to CMOS for their next Gen chip. However I have the feeling that won't happen in the next gen backs.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

I sadly think your perspective on that is correct, Christopher. Kodak and Dalsa could make the changes and start fabbing CMOS sensors, but that is going to take a lot of investment over time. Sony and Nikon stepped out to do that, and both struggled on their first attempts. Sony could be in a position to fab CMOS sensors for the next gen MF backs, but there is still going to be a production volume issue. Canon does its own design and fab, and are probably not going to bother selling to others, just as they have not to this point.

So, if there is transition to CMOS at some point for MF, the first go around may not have the kinks worked out, and they also will not be cheap.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

I personally think in the next year there will be three interesting things.

- the two new flagships from Canon and Sony (I have the feeling Sony won't share their newest gen right away with Nikon)
- How RED will do when actually shipping cameras with larger CMOS sensors
- What the next gen of MFDB will look like. ( Who want's to bet whether Phase will upgrade their back display :-P ? )

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Originally Posted by Christopher

I personally think in the next year there will be three interesting things.

- the two new flagships from Canon and Sony (I have the feeling Sony won't share their newest gen right away with Nikon)
- How RED will do when actually shipping cameras with larger CMOS sensors
- What the next gen of MFDB will look like. ( Who want's to bet whether Phase will upgrade their back display :-P ? )

yes and this will make the S2 look volder than it is already now before its launch. an amazing misjudgement on leica's part. who is interested in another 160-250 iso camera?
peter

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

If you shoot for a living for well paying clients, then the investment in an S2 system or equivalent setup is not such a big deal. Not saying any system is "cheap," but these things are tools and as such should be used enough to pay for themselves. I'm not going to wait a year to buy a higher spec'd computer if I need one now. It's a matter of deciding on cost vs. benefits. Soon the S2 will be out and all interested can try one for themselves. Until then lets give it a chance.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

I shot the S2 at a party tonight (sticking to my documentary style, of course) and was surprised how responsive it was, I felt like I was using a DSLR and not a MF camera, the AF definitely impressed me.

I know you guys are going to think I'm crazy and, of course this is not the way the S2 is supposed to be used but I have not shot in about a week and decided to have some fun

Another surprising feature was how light the S2 and 70 Summarit are, heck even the 180 was not that bad.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Originally Posted by Riccis

I shot the S2 at a party tonight (sticking to my documentary style, of course) and was surprised how responsive it was, I felt like I was using a DSLR and not a MF camera, the AF definitely impressed me.

I know you guys are going to think I'm crazy and, of course this is not the way the S2 is supposed to be used but I have not shot in about a week and decided to have some fun

Another surprising feature was how light the S2 and 70 Summarit are, heck even the 180 was not that bad.

Cheers,

Great feedback, this is exactly the info I want to get in addition to the more technical and pixel counting reviews.

IQ is only one part of the game, although a very important one, but if the whole system gets ugly and heavy to use then this is predicting a clear end for me.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Upon reading David Farkas' excellent review of the S2, notably the remarks about the narrow depth of field, the question occurred to me "Why does the S2 or its lenses don't have image stabilization?". If the goal of the S2 was to create a "mobile" digital MF camera, would it not have made sense to include image stabilization, as this would have greatly helped to shoot hand held and nevertheless achieve a reasonable depth of field at low (=high quality) ISO settings? As far as I know, on a Canon or Nikon you gain about 3 stops with image stabilization.

Of course, the simple answer may be that image stabilization for a MF camera is much more difficult and expensive than for a 35mm DSLR.

I am also curious to see how the 35 mm lens will perform and whether it permits to obtain images that are sharp from foreground to background. If ever I were to get a medium format system (and I am toying with the idea) I would want to use it for landscape.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Image stabilization might be nice, but it could also be more difficult to achieve with the much larger MF systems. If Leica went more the route Canon and Nikon have with IS/VR that is driven by lens motors, the S2 lenses might become rather more bulky and lose some of their sleekness, as well as create a much more difficult build process. If the image stabilization were inside the camera body, it might introduce some other difficulties with sufficient reaction speed for moving a much larger sensor and keeping it in proper register. There is also the issue of the AF sensor, and how big it is or is not to accurately drive an AF system. The image stabilizing systems work much more easily on smaller cameras, as there is less mass to move for corrections, the AF systems cover a greater area of the image, and there is inherently more DOF with the smaller sensors to start. Once you start getting to MF sizes, I think things get a bit more difficult. Not sure.

Not saying it could not be done, nor that it would be unwelcome, but it would probably add significant costs and weight to lenses, as well as to design. Not even sure how a lens driven stabilizer would work with leaf shutter lenses, if that was the chosen method. If the IS was kept in the body, I think mirror slap and even shutter movement inside would create much more internal vibration that might be a lot harder to tame. Just speculating on this....

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

IS is for wimps. LOL

Okay could not resist.

Actually doing IS would seriously make the lenses bigger and bulkier and certainly add more costs. Besides that battery issues may arise to shortening a already short life on these cams. MF takes a lot of juice just to run and the more things you have fighting for power than things will get slower than they already are. Really we are just starting to see raw throughput increase with sensors over 31 mpx . The S2 and P40+ backs are examples of increasing shooting speed and this just started to come to life over the 31 mpx mark. On paper the s2 is pretty darn fast with shooting speeds and also just for example my P30+ back is 1.5 seconds before the next shot, now bigger back in the P40+ that has been reduced to .8 seconds between frames. The S2 is even faster which makes it appealing. But if they added IS to it than it is very possible it may slow it down some. It would be a balancing act and just the increase per lens cost may be the death of MF altogether.

Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Originally Posted by Jack Flesher

If you want images sharp from foreground to background and want to shoot landscape, your best friend is going to be a good tripod, not IS...

Of course -- I never intended to suggest that IS would replace a tripod for landscape. I just wonder how much depth of field one can achieve with that lens, for example if you stop don to f16 or more. I could not find any DOF charts on the Leica website.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Bottom line on DOF from 35mm to MF is about 2 stops or more increase and that will increase with bigger sensors. The S2 being the smallest in this category over 31mpx it will have the most DOF but as you go up in sensor size that will decrease. Think P&S to 35mm , really the same principles here. The bigger the sensor gets the less DOF .

Your options are stopping down or do focus stacking and one program is excellent at it Helicon focus . For landscape shooters a very good tool to have in your box of tricks.

Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Originally Posted by Riccis

I shot the S2 at a party tonight (sticking to my documentary style, of course) and was surprised how responsive it was, I felt like I was using a DSLR and not a MF camera, the AF definitely impressed me.

I know you guys are going to think I'm crazy and, of course this is not the way the S2 is supposed to be used but I have not shot in about a week and decided to have some fun

Another surprising feature was how light the S2 and 70 Summarit are, heck even the 180 was not that bad.

Cheers,

Riccis, I'm guessing you went to the opening of the Palm Beach Photographic Center. I'm looking forward to shooting that same kit tomorrow morning.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

I don t understand why getting a decent profile out is such a big deal. Leica introduces the M9 and gives away LR without a profile. Within days custom profiles are available on the LUF . My guess is that Adobe could create a custom profile within a few days if it was important to them.

Even if the firmware is still being refined..big deal pick a version and develop a profile

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Upon reading David Farkas' excellent review of the S2, notably the remarks about the narrow depth of field, the question occurred to me "Why does the S2 or its lenses don't have image stabilization?".

Optical image stabilization and optimum image quality don't go together. Optical image stabilization can make a marginal situation much better but since its operating principle requires de-centering lens elements you get sub-optimum edges when IS is operating, and even when the IS module is off and locked and assuming it's perfectly centered when locked the additional air/glass surfaces will cause additional internal reflections, increasing flare and reducing contrast and color saturation.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Originally Posted by Christopher

Well or not. See the new Canon 100 macro IS. There probably aren't any better lenses out there. Not even zeiss or Leica and yes it has IS.

You'll see the difference if you compare lenses that incorporate similar design and manufacturing technology aside from IS. Or, you can compare Canon's EF 300mm f/4 IS and non-IS lenses. The newer lens ought to be better, having the benefit of newer design technology, right? It's not. The IS lens doesn't perform as well.

IS is a real benefit for most photographers because their technique isn't as good as the camera's capabilities. IS equalizes the equipment's and photographers' abilities. A MF user most likely uses better technique than the typical photographer.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

[QUOTE=doug;155794]You'll see the difference if you compare lenses that incorporate similar design and manufacturing technology aside from IS. Or, you can compare Canon's EF 300mm f/4 IS and non-IS lenses. The newer lens ought to be better, having the benefit of newer design technology, right? It's not. The IS lens doesn't perform as well.

Doug,

The current generation Canon long lenses (300 2.8L-600 4.0L) with IS are better than previous generation long lenses without IS.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

[QUOTE=Sharokin;155810]

Originally Posted by doug

You'll see the difference if you compare lenses that incorporate similar design and manufacturing technology aside from IS. Or, you can compare Canon's EF 300mm f/4 IS and non-IS lenses. The newer lens ought to be better, having the benefit of newer design technology, right? It's not. The IS lens doesn't perform as well.

Doug,

The current generation Canon long lenses (300 2.8L-600 4.0L) with IS are better than previous generation long lenses without IS.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Originally Posted by Jack Flesher

If you want images sharp from foreground to background and want to shoot landscape, your best friend is going to be a good tripod, not IS...

In a two factor world ( IS /tripod) Jack is spot on - I would add though, that on the tripod you should put a camera that allows you to use tilt if you are chasing extreme DOF - if you cant do that at least a camera that allows you to use a tilt /shift lens....

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso

Sure they can depends on really several factors but a easy one is how many units does it take to get back the ROI on that investment. You can do it several ways lower the cost increase the volume of the units being sold or sell high and don't sell as many units. You can get there both ways. The slippery slope here and what i hoped Leica would have done is get as many in the door easily with less costs and sell more or even more important sell more lenses to more people and actually come out way ahead of the game. This is where leica and i differ on pricing. BUT

Lets say we have 50 members right here on the forum and all 50 would buy if the price was lower but we have maybe 3 that will buy whatever it is. Now sit there as a OEM and tell me you would rather sell to 3 instead of 50. Now who is right and who is missing the boat. Now lets ask the 47 poor bastard that can't afford it how they feel. Obviously price is subjective and all that stuff but honestly that is just simple dumb *** logic there and we are all sitting here scratching our heads figuring if there is reason to go rob the bank for one. To me that is not good, you as a company want as many customers as you can get and that base grows into new customers and get that Leica itch that people have. LOL

Guy - thats not how the economics of manufacturing niche products works.
What any company has to do is optimise a whole bunch of variables in order to maximise return. aximising volume in many cases ( ironically) is a fast way to bankruptcy - did you know most companies that go broke - go broke because they are being too successful at maximising volume - without taking into account the other important variables?

Implicit in your example of 3 versus 47 is a price point that is way away from a deeper market - but it may be a price point that more than satisfies Leica's stay in business financial measures. 3/50 suggetss a market share of 6%. Apple computers actually calculates its market share at less than 10% - would you rather have a share in Apple or any other computer manufacturer over the last 5 years?

There are many companies who make fantastic returns with market shares less than 1%. Of course this raises a whole bunch of issues about defining actual market. Maybe Leica will actually capture more than 90% of its definition of its market....

In a commodity market - price is pretty much fixed. The variables exasperating Hasselblad from Phase One arent many - Leica is counting on a much more differentiated product strategy 9 which DOESNT MEAN being the best at everything) and a different price point.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

I do meanwhile actually not care about market share of a vendor, as long as they are successful with that product and show a lear future strategy.

This future strategy is what I would like to see a bit more from Leica in order to really feel comfortable with their system.

But if it comes to future strategy also others have their flaws:

Hasselblad closing their system from H3D upwards and bringing new body improvements every 18 months - why can't they just do one big great turn? Or when will they bring a focal plane shutter model - will this be then the H5D???

Phase developing a new camera model for years and then still have the same bad battery implementation? Should be at least the same battery for camera and back if it needs to be 2 separate batteries, which is of course an advantage in some cases.

So there are many variables and none of the MF vendors out there today is close to being perfect in all areas.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Really? I didn't know Canon made the new 100/2.8 Macro IS an APO design like the Leica 100/2.8 APO Macro.

I've been using the 100 APO macro for over a decade,first on R8's
and more recently on Canon digital bodies.

I picked up the new Canon 100 macro IS last week and apart from
expected construction differences the Canon is, optically, the equal
of the 100 apo. Sharpness is,for all intents and purposes, equal and optical defects are non-existent in both lenses.

Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Well, first of all, you are right, that I don't give a ****, what one could see (or imagine) to see at 100% or 200% on screen... Secondly some lenses CAN be better, but the 100 apo just isn't. I don't have the new Canon lens, but the old one which is already really good oh and yes I had the Leica apo, as I have/had 10 other Leica R lesnes for my Canons. That does not mean that just because there is a red dot or the Leica name on something it is the best .......