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Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

The Telegraph wrote:Jesus was born years earlier than thought, claims Pope

By Nick Squires, Rome

The 'mistake' was made by a sixth century monk known as Dionysius Exiguus or in English Dennis the Small, the 85-year-old pontiff claims in the book 'Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives', published on Wednesday.

"The calculation of the beginning of our calendar – based on the birth of Jesus – was made by Dionysius Exiguus, who made a mistake in his calculations by several years," the Pope writes in the book, which went on sale around the world with an initial print run of a million copies.

"The actual date of Jesus's birth was several years before."

The assertion that the Christian calendar is based on a false premise is not new – many historians believe that Christ was born sometime between 7BC and 2BC.

But the fact that doubts over one of the keystones of Christian tradition have been raised by the leader of the world's one billion Catholics is striking.

Dennis the Small, who was born in Eastern Europe, is credited with being the "inventor" of the modern calendar and the concept of the Anno Domini era.

He drew up the new system in part to distance it from the calendar in use at the time, which was based on the years since the reign of the Roman emperor Diocletian.

The emperor had persecuted Christians, so there was good reason to expunge him from the new dating system in favour of one inspired by the birth of Christ.

The monk's calendar became widely accepted in Europe after it was adopted by the Venerable Bede, the historian-monk, to date the events that he recounted in his Ecclesiastical History of the English People, which he completed in AD 731.

But exactly how Dennis calculated the year of Christ's birth is not clear and the Pope's claim that he made a mistake is a view shared by many scholars.

The Bible does not specify a date for the birth of Christ. The monk instead appears to have based his calculations on vague references to Jesus's age at the start of his ministry and the fact that he was baptised in the reign of the emperor Tiberius.

Christ's birth date is not the only controversy raised by the Pope in his new book – he also said that contrary to the traditional Nativity scene, there were no oxen, donkeys or other animals at Jesus's birth.

He also weighs in on the debate over Christ's birthplace, rejecting arguments by some scholars that he was born in Nazareth rather than Bethlehem.

John Barton, Professor of the Interpretation of the Holy Scripture at Oriel College, Oxford University, said most academics agreed with the Pope that the Christian calendar was wrong and that Jesus was born several years earlier than commonly thought, probably between 6BC and 4BC.

"There is no reference to when he was born in the Bible - all we know is that he was born in the reign of Herod the Great, who died before 1AD," he told The Daily Telegraph. "It's been surmised for a very long time that Jesus was born before 1AD so technically we may well be living in 2007 or 2008 or whatever - no one knows for sure."

The idea that Christ was born on Dec 25 also has no basis in historical fact. "We don't even know which season he was born in. The whole idea of celebrating his birth during the darkest part of the year is probably linked to pagan traditions and the winter solstice."

Well this may shed a new view on when the rapture happens, depending on how many years are in play. Of course no one knows the day or the hour of our Lord's return__we simply have to be prepared whether it's in 7 years or 70 years from this day. Israel is the key to the mystery and we need to stand by her side and be watchful. The article stated: "Christ's birth date is not the only controversy raised by the Pope in his new book – he also said that contrary to the traditional Nativity scene, there were no oxen, donkeys or other animals at Jesus's birth." My question would be how does the Pope know there were no animals at Jesus's birth? Is there Biblical scripture to back his statement? My view on the animals being at the birth of Jesus (whether true or not) is to emphasize that even the animal kingdom, in their own way, know the significance of our Lord Jesus and that even THEY bow before the King Of Jews and the King of all mankind. http://www.orlutheran.com/html/luk2.html "Who was there when Jesus was born? As far as we know, only Joseph and Mary. Given the fact that Bethlehem was their ancestral home, they would have had at least distant relatives there. Were any relatives there on the scene when Jesus was born? It is unlikely, because if Joseph and Mary had found relatives, it seems probable that they would have invited the Nazareth couple into their home. But since Joseph and Mary were traveling to Bethlehem for the census, isn't it likely that their relatives in Nazareth would have journeyed with them and these relatives would have been with Joseph and Mary when Jesus was born? Yes, it is likely. But Luke doesn't mention them. They might have gone at a different time. We don't know. That is why I said that as far as we know, on the basis of the text, only Joseph and Mary were there when Jesus was born. Not even animals are mentioned, though it is almost certain there would have been some in a stable!"

The lowly donkey has been used to represent Christ who, like the symbolic donkey, was both meek and mild. The donkey carried the material burdens of the poor, while Christ humbled Himself, and took on a life of poverty, in order to carry the heavy burden of man's sins. The donkey represents many of the characteristics of the self-abasing Christ: patience, courage, gentleness, peace, and humility.

greeney2 wrote:Hard for me to believe I've done anything wrong on Christmas day, or any Birthday party, and thinking I was, to me would be dumb dumb dumb to the max.

Well Greeny2....that is between you and God ..not between you and me.

However...for those of us who know the trends and history....there is no such instruction for the Hebrews under the Olde Testament to celebrate a birthday...ever. You do find it among the Pagan religions and customs..also known as the traditions of men.

For the pattern of both the Olde Testament and the New Testament is that all glory and worship are to go towards God and not us.This is not the pattern in the Pagan nations surrounding Ancient Israel..and even today among the Pagan Nations.

Self Glorification/Self Indulgence...is the word of the day.

Also from history...the custom and tradition is to bring gifts before a king. We are not kings.

However ...when you pervert/expand the custom of bringing gifts before a king with self glorification/self indulgence...and slick salesmanship of merchandize...you get what???

It cracks me up to watch the Atheists slowly trying to kill off Christmas and Nativity scenes. They are as dumb and ignorant as many Christians. Astonishing but true. It will not bother me in the least if they succeed. In this the Atheists remind me of the hatred of the Palestinians and the Jews today. They do have in them a burning for Christians...but their burning is greatly misdirected.

It busts me out laughing on the television to interview the historians here when they are asked how the early colonialists of Williamsburg and Jamestown, about 30/35 miles north west of me, decorated their houses for Xmas. They lie and say ...we have no surviving records of this but we think they would have decorated their homes like this!! And then they proceed to dramatize what they think the colonialists did for decorations.

That is what happens with much of Public Education.

You do what you want Greeny2...that is between you and God. I have already decided and acted upon it.

But it is interesting to observe the holiday spirit among the Wildlife in the stores about town and about the nation. It is waxing worse and worse as the years go by. Can you say..Nephilim?? Zanzumins?? Emmin ?? Confusion???

orangetom1999 wrote:This whole concept is dumber than dumb and Christians should not be concerned with something as shallow as when Jesus the Christ was born.

I saw this article on the web a few days ago and thought ...dumb..dumb dumb to the max.

Thanks,Orangetom

Brother Tom.

It's not dumb. We should all at least be curious as to the year Christ was born. Afterall, our calendar is based on it! It obviously has no bearing on salvation, etc., but if all things not salvation-oriented are dumb to the max? Then 99.9% of what we talk about as human beings might as well cease. Where will that get us.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

I agree, the Vatican studies more artifacts and writings than anyone, and if their findings clarify things like this, isn't it better they tell about it, rather than just keep it quiet? Sorry OT, but you should recognize the Vatican as a primary repository of these ancient documents, and the research that goes on there is far from dumb dumb dumb.

orangetom1999 wrote:Well Greeny2....that is between you and God ..not between you and me.

However...for those of us who know the trends and history....there is no such instruction for the Hebrews under the Olde Testament to celebrate a birthday...ever. You do find it among the Pagan religions and customs..also known as the traditions of men.

The last Birthday party I was at, was my 2 year old Grand Daughters. Nothing but parents, grandparents, an Aunt and Uncle, thanking God for her with Love.

Lets see, Celebrating real Birthdays is wrong, but new found Christians call themselves "Born Again", and remind you every five minutes.

I agree with OT here. The Christian faith is so deeply rooted in Paganism I don't understand how most don't see it. This is especially true of the Catholic church. What are saints, if not demigods of a pantheon? The other denominations don't revere the saints but still hold Mary and the Apostles in the highest regard. The Jews basically did what all people did before them, dropped or demonized the old pantheon in favor of their new God, the one true God. Christian's followed suit and so everything that came before is now satanic and evil.

Celebrating Pagan holidays but doing so with a Christian theme and demonizing the Pagan celebration of that same day. Even the months and days of the week still retain their Pagan roots in the Christian calendar. It's interesting to see how Jews and Christians have adapted the Sumerian religion that came before into their belief systems. If you think the Bible is dark, try reading some of the Sumerian texts which the Bible heavily borrows from or outright copies. Like the proverbs, for example.

Christians are obsessed with time, especially end times. Never mind that God said it isn't for man to know the hour, they keep looking anyway. Men are curious creatures to be sure. I think the reason God said that is because he wanted man to rely on their faith that if they believed, when the end of days comes it won't matter. However, it seems man wants to know how long they've got to keep sinning before repenting at the last minute for that "get out of hell free card". You know, so they can covet thy neighbor's wife one last time.

The modern definition of ‘racist’ is someone who’s winning an argument with a liberal.

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