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I have a question to all those who see Islam as a peaceful religion. For the sake of argument, pretend I am Salman Rushdie. How have you shown to me that Islam is a peaceful religion?

This is not a valid argument. You're using the preachings of a fanatic in the religion's leadership to represent the religion as a whole. By the same logic, you can argue that Catholicism promotes sexual molestation of young children.

Um, I was raised Catholic, and I don't recall anything in the catechism endorsing child molestation. On the other hand, one of the authoritative biographers of Muhammad wrote:

Book 38, Number 4349:

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.

So, according to the example of MoMo himself, it's apparently no big crime for a Muslim vigilante to kill a blasphemer.

dont say muslim
because what u showed us is from a hadith or a sunna and therefore against the quran..........
u are talking about shia and sunnism which are satanic religions_________________iran iranam iraaanam
ke az to daram in jaanam
janam fadayat
mikhanam
payande baadi IRANam!!!!!!!

You're right - there's nothing in the Old or New Testaments that endorse child abuse - I was referring of course to recent discoveries of this behavior by Catholic priests.

The <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Numbers+22-25,31" target="_blank">Old Testament</a> does have some interesting ideas about raping of young virgins, however:

Quote:

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle.
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

We could continue like this for weeks, which I don't intend to do. It's divisive and pointless to compare texts that were written hundreds and hundreds of years ago with the world as it is today. Let's face it - it was a much more violent and bloody world back then. There was no real rule of law, so religion had to be the law.

What we need to encourage is tolerance in and of all religions. The hate speech that's popping up in this thread only adds fuel to the fundie fire. Believe it or not, most Muslims don't want to kill Americans and they don't want to kill Jews - they want to work and have a place to live and raise a family.

All religions probably have material which is violent. The question is whether there are other parts which outweigh the violence. When Muslims tell me they want to overthrow my government and set up a theocracy and instate Shariah law, I have to take them seriously. This is not just a small lunatic fringe but mainstream people. This is not hate speach on my part, this is the result of honest inquiry.

We are not talking about things from long ago but people's intentions for the present and for the future. I think there are some people on this website who have come up with answers, but they aren't considered mainstream, however, it is certainly better than I have heard elsewhere. I think the future freedom of Iran and much of the world depends upon people somehow learning how to interpret Islam in a positive way or if they can't then abandoning the religion. The Saudi Arabian money to the Wahabbis hasn't helped any.

I'm not Christian so I have no axe to grind here. Although the Bible does indeed contain some violent passages, as it went through the Reformation you have a situation now in which your average Christian will admit that he doesn't think that the Bible is the word of god. Therefore your average Christian will not be willing to go out and slaughter the infidel. Also, sermons in churches are not of the firebrand variety like you'll get in a mosque.

The majority of Muslims are not Muslim at all - they do not follow the five pillars. They are just Muslim by name. Some, if not most, of this group will be ok and will be nothing to be scared of. It's the real Muslims who you should be scared of - they are the ones who follow Islam blindly.
Islam is nothing but Arab imperialism, BTW.

I hate Islam. I hate Nazism too. They are very similar.
Islam is incompatible with human traits and inshallah will not survive the century. Help make it so, or kiss goodbye to having great-grandchildren.

I have a question to all those who see Islam as a peaceful religion. For the sake of argument, pretend I am Salman Rushdie. How have you shown to me that Islam is a peaceful religion?

This is not a valid argument. You're using the preachings of a fanatic in the religion's leadership to represent the religion as a whole. By the same logic, you can argue that Catholicism promotes sexual molestation of young children.

Hi, toaster,

Bad analogy. There are no cardinals, bishops, nor priests pointing to the Bible and, with an air of pious rectitude, exhort all true Christians to sexually abuse this or that child because he or she defamed the Pope or Jesus Christ. Nor does one hear of a multi-million dollar reward offered to the Christian whom commits the act.

All religions probably have material which is violent. The question is whether there are other parts which outweigh the violence. When Muslims tell me they want to overthrow my government and set up a theocracy and instate Shariah law, I have to take them seriously. This is not just a small lunatic fringe but mainstream people. This is not hate speach on my part, this is the result of honest inquiry.

Agreed. What we're really talking about is the role of religion in the state, and the state in religion. I don't believe a government should force religious beliefs on anyone. I don't believe a government should make laws based solely on religion, and I most certainly don't believe a government should adopt an official religion and work to "ethnically cleanse" all nonbelievers. I have the same objection to the mullahs' tyranny in Iran as I do to the Israeli government's quest for a pure Jewish state. At the same time, I also don't think government should ban religion, either. Enforced secularism is just as bad as enforced Islam. I believe people should have the freedom to choose their religion, and how much they want in their lives. This is the fundamental issue here, and I think we agree.

Quote:

We are not talking about things from long ago but people's intentions for the present and for the future. I think there are some people on this website who have come up with answers, but they aren't considered mainstream, however, it is certainly better than I have heard elsewhere. I think the future freedom of Iran and much of the world depends upon people somehow learning how to interpret Islam in a positive way or if they can't then abandoning the religion. The Saudi Arabian money to the Wahabbis hasn't helped any.

The odds of 1/5 of the world's population abandoning their religion are pretty slim - let's look at the positive, moderate option. Moderate Islam is not incompatible with democracy and freedom. Fundamentalist religion - any fundamentalist religion - is.

In every revolution there are personal changes. For there to be a successful revolution, one starts with oneself. My personal experience was the civil rights movement in the United States. The oppressed blacks changed inside, pride grew, low self esteem waned. Whites put themselves in the shoes of blacks. Fear had to become overcome by all, especially in the rural south. We were demonstrating to open the trade unions, construction unions We closed a construction site, in the evening after some were bailed out of jail, a rally in a church was held. As the meeting ended the congregation spontaneously marched in the main road, it grew in size. Several police cars retreated with spot lights on the front line of marchers. From then on we were victors.

Identify what needs to be changed inside first. My friend who tends to be a bache hagi, going back to iran returning with "dar iran zendengani khoob ast" and video's of women in chadors on one side of the restaurant with his uncles on the other side... What to say... in every irani there is a conflict between what is irani and what is arabi. He readily accepts dishonesty... the swindling hagi bizaari type of dishonesty... oh that is the way it is done in the middle east... yeah work your prayer beads as you defraud uncle sam your father getting SSI while living in iran. So become honest... truly honest to win the revolution.

What about fear... does the typical irani assume the worst outcome will occur.... Does the irani fear too many things, too frequently? Duty loyalty to one history, ones family ones nation.... loyalty to a code of ethics... may balance fear... We must know that great fears, justifiable fears .... do not prevent action, successful action. We ought not forget

do you consider charity, hatred, self hatred. Mader e man is the sweetest woman alive... she prays long in the night for me she prays first for an hour.... they never went on a hag nor to a mosque after '79, but she gave to the poor always. She is so full of love, so full of God. What is the telling trait of the muslim male, what underlies everything.... from self flagellation, beating your sister for flirting..... it is hatred... Thomas Merton: "all hatred springs from self-hatred" to fight the basijees and arab thugs... get them to love themselves...

logically self hatred is the absence of love in ones soul.... all love is absent even the love of God.... It is impossible to have a chance at life, to have a chance at having God's love come to the soul, if the soul is full of hatred. Hitler knew how to manipulate the Germans... politicians and the the material sellers in the West know how to manipulate the americans. The self hatred is aggravated by the the manipulation of the islamo fascists. These mullahs do not even know God, do not even care to move men to God....

Can you spare us the comments that bash an entire religion? I know many great muslims who are adamantly against the fanatic regimes in the Middle East.. come on now..

It's time for those muslims in free countries who are adamantly against terrorism, to speak out loud and clear and say so! We NEVER hear any such statements from any muslims. ARE there really such people? They need to speak out. They need to be heard!

again i am muslim but that is arabic word so i use the english which is submitter.......however im not shia or sunni.....and i only use the quran_________________iran iranam iraaanam
ke az to daram in jaanam
janam fadayat
mikhanam
payande baadi IRANam!!!!!!!

I think you are on the right track. You reject the hatred and evil things which are being taught in the name of Islam. Although I don't agree with you on everything, I can recognize a genuine human being.

I see the discussion happening here as very positive. People need to examine how they arrived at the spot they are in before setting off blindly in another direction. It is true outside powers have shaped Iran and have wrongly interfered. However there have been wrongs in Iran itself which have contributed even more to the problems. These need to be rooted out.

To be free, people must have a true love for freedom. Hatred must be replaced by love and caring. Forgiveness is essential, but not to the extent that those who committed crimes are able to regain power and resume their evil ways.

The US media is not covering this because it would only help justify our ousting of Saddam. The media,as we all know, want a new occupant in the White House. Uprisings in the middle east and democracy to root out terrorists is what it's all about.