The end of print

[quote]another set of figures[/quote]
And a very different set at that, particularly that:- [i]Books use a total 15.2 MJ of energy and 4.47 kg of CO2. Kindles use a total 2615.5 MJ of energy and 512.2 kg CO2 emissions. This means that approximately 172 books would use the same amount of energy as one Amazon Kindle, and 115 books would produce the same amount of CO2 as one Amazon Kindle.[/i]
Now 2615.5 MJ and 512.2 Kg CO2 is a long way away from the earlier quote of 200MJ and 12 kg of CO2, but I agree the quoted equivalence of books is obviously less than 3,500. Now just bring me a proper validated scientific survey and I might have a real opinion!

Quote:another set of figures

And a very different set at that, particularly that:- Books use a total 15.2 MJ of energy and 4.47 kg of CO2. Kindles use a total 2615.5 MJ of energy and 512.2 kg CO2 emissions. This means that approximately 172 books would use the same amount of energy as one Amazon Kindle, and 115 books would produce the same amount of CO2 as one Amazon Kindle.

Now 2615.5 MJ and 512.2 Kg CO2 is a long way away from the earlier quote of 200MJ and 12 kg of CO2, but I agree the quoted equivalence of books is obviously less than 3,500. Now just bring me a proper validated scientific survey and I might have a real opinion!

[quote] Now just bring me a proper validated scientific survey and I might have a real opinion![/quote]
I don't have access to the online databases of the papers anymore, but I'm sure they are out there.
But I also don't have an opinion on this, I was just curious given the direction the conversation was going earlier. I like paper books, and have a Kindle on order. I see them as serving two different needs. I also can't really see myself buying 172 books during the lifetime of a Kindle, which might not be much more than 2 years, but I do intend downloading the project gutenburg CD archive and adding some of those to the kindle.

Quote: Now just bring me a proper validated scientific survey and I might have a real opinion!

I don't have access to the online databases of the papers anymore, but I'm sure they are out there.

But I also don't have an opinion on this, I was just curious given the direction the conversation was going earlier. I like paper books, and have a Kindle on order. I see them as serving two different needs. I also can't really see myself buying 172 books during the lifetime of a Kindle, which might not be much more than 2 years, but I do intend downloading the project gutenburg CD archive and adding some of those to the kindle.

I have a Sony ereader, and came very close to getting a Kindle last night, but I was out bid at the last moment.:P However, having researched the new Kindles, I don't like the proprietary tone that Amazon has taken with it. So, today I went out and bought another Sony.:) Now I'm saving twice as much.;) Actually, I bought it for my granddaughter's 11th birthday. That makes 3 of the Sony's I've purchased within about 6 months.
I have never read so much in my life, and I'm really enjoying it. I downloaded an English translation of the Qu'ran last night, just to see what it's all about.

I have a Sony ereader, and came very close to getting a Kindle last night, but I was out bid at the last moment. However, having researched the new Kindles, I don't like the proprietary tone that Amazon has taken with it. So, today I went out and bought another Sony. Now I'm saving twice as much. Actually, I bought it for my granddaughter's 11th birthday. That makes 3 of the Sony's I've purchased within about 6 months.

I have never read so much in my life, and I'm really enjoying it. I downloaded an English translation of the Qu'ran last night, just to see what it's all about.

[quote]Jools suggested otherwise when he said: "Paper mainly comes from sustainably grown softwood forests. Now, what about all the resources involved in making an ebook? All the rare metals, the solvents and water used in production? Not to mention the oil that goes to make the plastics, the power required for all the various manufacturing processes.... Suddenly 3,500 paper books don't seem quite so environmentally damaging, do they?"[/quote]
Let's look at this.
resources used for books:
- growing enough wood to maturity (admittedly this uses a lot of water and land)
- water and power for processing of trees into paper
- printing
- transportation
resources for an average electronic device:
- silicon (inc. costs of processing raw materials and growing the crystals)
- other rare earth metals for batteries etc. (also inc. of ore processing)
- toxic solvents used in the various production processes (inc. their safe disposal when no longer required)
- plastics for outer casing and casings for internal components (inc. costs for crude oil production and processing into raw plastic)
- packaging (more plastics)
- power and water used for all of the above
Now, it may not be equivalent to as much as 3500 books (but then I didn't make that precise claim, did I?) but I'd guess the true number would be higher than you'd think. Probably more than the average number of books most people are likely to use it to read.

Quote:Jools suggested otherwise when he said: "Paper mainly comes from sustainably grown softwood forests. Now, what about all the resources involved in making an ebook? All the rare metals, the solvents and water used in production? Not to mention the oil that goes to make the plastics, the power required for all the various manufacturing processes.... Suddenly 3,500 paper books don't seem quite so environmentally damaging, do they?"

Let's look at this.

resources used for books:
- growing enough wood to maturity (admittedly this uses a lot of water and land)
- water and power for processing of trees into paper
- printing
- transportation

resources for an average electronic device:
- silicon (inc. costs of processing raw materials and growing the crystals)
- other rare earth metals for batteries etc. (also inc. of ore processing)
- toxic solvents used in the various production processes (inc. their safe disposal when no longer required)
- plastics for outer casing and casings for internal components (inc. costs for crude oil production and processing into raw plastic)
- packaging (more plastics)
- power and water used for all of the above

Now, it may not be equivalent to as much as 3500 books (but then I didn't make that precise claim, did I?) but I'd guess the true number would be higher than you'd think. Probably more than the average number of books most people are likely to use it to read.

Two things spring to mind:
1) The xerox copier machine - instead of a few carbon copies of really important memos being circulated a few thousand of xerox copies of lesser importance memos were circulated to long suffering staff.
2) The computer + printer - reams and reams and reams of printer paper emerging from the dread device contributing to a vastly over saturated information glut.
One good device?
The paper shredder! ;)

Two things spring to mind:

1) The xerox copier machine - instead of a few carbon copies of really important memos being circulated a few thousand of xerox copies of lesser importance memos were circulated to long suffering staff.

2) The computer + printer - reams and reams and reams of printer paper emerging from the dread device contributing to a vastly over saturated information glut.

We remain far too dependant on paper, and are still destroying acres of Forest to meet the demand.
It seems that we are unlikely to have sufficient energy to meet our future needs (eg. devices need power, and need to be recharged)

We remain far too dependant on paper, and are still destroying acres of Forest to meet the demand.
It seems that we are unlikely to have sufficient energy to meet our future needs (eg. devices need power, and need to be recharged)

[quote]We remain far too dependant on paper, and are still destroying acres of Forest to meet the demand.
It seems that we are unlikely to have sufficient energy to meet our future needs (eg. devices need power, and need to be recharged)[/quote]
I'm not convinced of this since the trees are being grown specifically for the paper market, so who knows what would take over the areas if they weren't planted with trees? The other thing to remember is that trees are actively consuming CO2 for at least part of their lifetime and generating oxygen back into the atmosphere, but again you'll find that the studies vary in their end results.

Quote:We remain far too dependant on paper, and are still destroying acres of Forest to meet the demand.
It seems that we are unlikely to have sufficient energy to meet our future needs (eg. devices need power, and need to be recharged)

I'm not convinced of this since the trees are being grown specifically for the paper market, so who knows what would take over the areas if they weren't planted with trees? The other thing to remember is that trees are actively consuming CO2 for at least part of their lifetime and generating oxygen back into the atmosphere, but again you'll find that the studies vary in their end results.

[quote]David, FWIW, My Kindle's displaying a recipe at the minute and it's using no power whatsoever.[/quote]
so if its using NO power how does it display?
[quote]It seems that we are unlikely to have sufficient energy to meet our future needs[/quote]
What do you mean the future? That's why we have wind turbines as we didn't support future energy needs in the past.
[quote]We remain far too dependant on paper, and are still destroying acres of Forest to meet the demand. [/quote]
Which is better....a source that can be replaced or one that cant.....oil/coal/gas?

Quote:David, FWIW, My Kindle's displaying a recipe at the minute and it's using no power whatsoever.

so if its using NO power how does it display?

Quote:It seems that we are unlikely to have sufficient energy to meet our future needs

What do you mean the future? That's why we have wind turbines as we didn't support future energy needs in the past.

Quote:We remain far too dependant on paper, and are still destroying acres of Forest to meet the demand.

Which is better....a source that can be replaced or one that cant.....oil/coal/gas?

[quote]so if its using NO power how does it display?[/quote]
e-ink displays are formed of pixels which are black on one side and white on the other, and changed by passing an electric charge through them. So one they are in the position, they will stay there until the page is refreshed whether the unit's power is on or off.

Quote:so if its using NO power how does it display?

e-ink displays are formed of pixels which are black on one side and white on the other, and changed by passing an electric charge through them. So one they are in the position, they will stay there until the page is refreshed whether the unit's power is on or off.

[quote]I preordered one of the new generation Kindles from Amazon last week. Amazon have just launched their new UK Kindle store. Not only can commuters carry a Kindle instead of a book to read on the tube, they can get magazines or their daily paper beamed to it wirelessly.
[b]This is the beginning of the end for printed media?[/b][/quote]
Surely this is you trying to justify spending silly money;)

Quote:I preordered one of the new generation Kindles from Amazon last week. Amazon have just launched their new UK Kindle store. Not only can commuters carry a Kindle instead of a book to read on the tube, they can get magazines or their daily paper beamed to it wirelessly.