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I will start by giving the situation. I was playing with my buddy's 2 vs 2 best ball and the loser bought a round. So we were not playing for a lot but we were playing for something. The hole was a par 3 and my opponent hit a nice high draw and if looked good for the tee. Get up there and can't find his ball. We looked for 5 minutes and I told him he would just have to take a drop. He gets mad and goes on and makes a 5. After that he looked for his ball and found it plugged behind the green. He asked if he could play that ball and I said sure but why it's plugged and you will be lucky to get a 5 from there. He said no its plugged I get a lift clean and place. We argued a bit and I knew there was no way you would get rewarded for hitting a poor shot. I will state it would be like a second cut rough and I know the rule states through the green at fairway length can be lifted cleaned and place but was I wrong in this situation?

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After your opponent's five minute search his ball was officially lost, and his only play was back from the tee.

If he had found the embedded ball in the rough earlier he could have taken a one-stroke unplayable lie penalty, or, if the course uses the "through the green" embedded ball local rule, he could have taken a free drop.

I will start by giving the situation. I was playing with my buddy's 2 vs 2 best ball and the loser bought a round. So we were not playing for a lot but we were playing for something. The hole was a par 3 and my opponent hit a nice high draw and if looked good for the tee. Get up there and can't find his ball. We looked for 5 minutes and I told him he would just have to take a drop. He gets mad and goes on and makes a 5. After that he looked for his ball and found it plugged behind the green. He asked if he could play that ball and I said sure but why it's plugged and you will be lucky to get a 5 from there. He said no its plugged I get a lift clean and place. We argued a bit and I knew there was no way you would get rewarded for hitting a poor shot. I will state it would be like a second cut rough and I know the rule states through the green at fairway length can be lifted cleaned and place but was I wrong in this situation?

Wow, there are a lot of Rules situations in play here!
- after he looked for the ball for five minutes, the ball was lost. The only place he could "take a drop" would be at the teeing ground, and he would be playing his third shot. Given that it's match play, maybe it's time he concedes the hole or takes himself out of the hole?
- after the original ball is lost (searched for five minutes), if he plays it, he is playing a wrong ball and loses the hole.
- he's not entitled to relief from an embedded ball other than in an area that is "closely-mown" (cut to fairway height or less). There could be a local Rule in place at the course that extends this to through the green, but you can't assume that. If taking relief for an embedded ball, it's not lift, clean and place. The ball may be lifted, cleaned and then dropped as near as possible to where it was embedded in its own pitch mark.

Thanks I didn't think I was wrong on the embedded ball. That was the only rules infraction I was wondering about. The other one about taking a drop, I really was not going to make him drive back to the teebox to retee, looking for a ball for 5 minutes already slowed us up. As for letting him play his first ball was more out of being friends with him for so long and being nice. His attitude tends to be very poor when he is losing, which was a lot that weekend lol.

I really was not going to make him drive back to the teebox to retee, looking for a ball for 5 minutes already slowed us up. As for letting him play his first ball was more out of being friends with him for so long and being nice.

Jspangler, I hope you don't take offense at this, but I never can understand why two friends playing a game would consider it "nice" to let one have a hole they don't deserve. I certainly wouldn't want that "gift" from one of my friends.

If you like the guy, and want to be "nice" to your friend in this manner, why not just concede the whole match to him. Isn't that nicer still?

To me, friends should be able to compete in a friendly way via the rules. And if they can't do that, IMO they should play along side each other and not against each other. In any case, I sincerely hope you're having fun while trying to balance all that.

I really was not going to make him drive back to the teebox to retee, looking for a ball for 5 minutes already slowed us up. As for letting him play his first ball was more out of being friends with him for so long and being nice.

Jspangler, I hope you don't take offense at this, but I never can understand why two friends playing a game would consider it "nice" to let one have a hole they don't deserve. I certainly wouldn't want that "gift" from one of my friends.

If you like the guy, and want to be "nice" to your friend in this manner, why not just concede the whole match to him. Isn't that nicer still?

To me, friends should be able to compete in a friendly way via the rules. And if they can't do that, IMO they should play along side each other and not against each other. In any case, I sincerely hope you're having fun while trying to balance all that.

I don't take offense, the being nice was not really going to effect the outcome, we weren't playing a match play game we played best ball and took the total score, at that point in the match in believe we were up 12 strokes and the chances of him improving on the 5 from that lie was slim.

I really was not going to make him drive back to the teebox to retee, looking for a ball for 5 minutes already slowed us up. As for letting him play his first ball was more out of being friends with him for so long and being nice.

Jspangler, I hope you don't take offense at this, but I never can understand why two friends playing a game would consider it "nice" to let one have a hole they don't deserve. I certainly wouldn't want that "gift" from one of my friends.

If you like the guy, and want to be "nice" to your friend in this manner, why not just concede the whole match to him. Isn't that nicer still?

To me, friends should be able to compete in a friendly way via the rules. And if they can't do that, IMO they should play along side each other and not against each other. In any case, I sincerely hope you're having fun while trying to balance all that.

I've had similar matches with friends. I think the situation of the match and previous matches can have some influence. Friendly matches can be competitive, but don't need to be ruthless. Sawgrass, just to be clear, I'm not saying that you're ruthless, but I do think that in some friendly matches there can be some leeway.

I really was not going to make him drive back to the teebox to retee, looking for a ball for 5 minutes already slowed us up. As for letting him play his first ball was more out of being friends with him for so long and being nice.

Jspangler, I hope you don't take offense at this, but I never can understand why two friends playing a game would consider it "nice" to let one have a hole they don't deserve. I certainly wouldn't want that "gift" from one of my friends.

If you like the guy, and want to be "nice" to your friend in this manner, why not just concede the whole match to him. Isn't that nicer still?

To me, friends should be able to compete in a friendly way via the rules. And if they can't do that, IMO they should play along side each other and not against each other. In any case, I sincerely hope you're having fun while trying to balance all that.

I've had similar matches with friends. I think the situation of the match and previous matches can have some influence. Friendly matches can be competitive, but don't need to be ruthless. Sawgrass, just to be clear, I'm not saying that you're ruthless, but I do think that in some friendly matches there can be some leeway.

Yes, I am clearly not taking offense either. I just find our differing approaches interesting. I certainly don't consider myself "ruthless", nor do I consider anyone else who plays by the letter of the law to be ruthless. I consider us to simply be "fair"!

Nevertheless, IMO every time one attempts to allow an illegal act in a game, it gets way too confusing for me to find my ethical way home. (I lean on the Rules of Golf to do that for me.)

I run into this kind of situation frequently...On the 1st tee someone says "We have a game on today" and then they spell out the game and the stakes...usually a Nassau for some small amount of money or drinks or lunch etc etc. I ALWAYS then reply with "OK..but if we are playing for something...we are playing by the rules" You then get the deer caught in the headlights stare and a proclamation that usually is like "We have our own rules for these games"
At this point I opt out and enjoy my game while I watch them quibble over their scores.
If you are playing by the RoG then play by them all....not just the ones that seem to suit for that day.
Just my $.02 worth

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I really was not going to make him drive back to the teebox to retee, looking for a ball for 5 minutes already slowed us up. As for letting him play his first ball was more out of being friends with him for so long and being nice.

Jspangler, I hope you don't take offense at this, but I never can understand why two friends playing a game would consider it "nice" to let one have a hole they don't deserve. I certainly wouldn't want that "gift" from one of my friends.

If you like the guy, and want to be "nice" to your friend in this manner, why not just concede the whole match to him. Isn't that nicer still?

To me, friends should be able to compete in a friendly way via the rules. And if they can't do that, IMO they should play along side each other and not against each other. In any case, I sincerely hope you're having fun while trying to balance all that.

I don't take offense, the being nice was not really going to effect the outcome, we weren't playing a match play game we played best ball and took the total score, at that point in the match in believe we were up 12 strokes and the chances of him improving on the 5 from that lie was slim.

Please don't offense at this post, but you may wish to look at the definitions of 'forms of match play" and 'forms of stroke play' definitions in the Rule book and sort out your terminology. It would really help in answering your question. I'm still not certain if you were playing match play or stroke play, but it sounds like stroke play. Further, I'd suggest switching to match play - most of the Rules issues will disappear (loss of hole is easy to apply, and you can concede holes), you'll play faster and probably both of you will enjoy it more.

I really was not going to make him drive back to the teebox to retee, looking for a ball for 5 minutes already slowed us up. As for letting him play his first ball was more out of being friends with him for so long and being nice.

Jspangler, I hope you don't take offense at this, but I never can understand why two friends playing a game would consider it "nice" to let one have a hole they don't deserve. I certainly wouldn't want that "gift" from one of my friends.

If you like the guy, and want to be "nice" to your friend in this manner, why not just concede the whole match to him. Isn't that nicer still?

To me, friends should be able to compete in a friendly way via the rules. And if they can't do that, IMO they should play along side each other and not against each other. In any case, I sincerely hope you're having fun while trying to balance all that.

I don't take offense, the being nice was not really going to effect the outcome, we weren't playing a match play game we played best ball and took the total score, at that point in the match in believe we were up 12 strokes and the chances of him improving on the 5 from that lie was slim.

Please don't offense at this post, but you may wish to look at the definitions of 'forms of match play" and 'forms of stroke play' definitions in the Rule book and sort out your terminology. It would really help in answering your question. I'm still not certain if you were playing match play or stroke play, but it sounds like stroke play. Further, I'd suggest switching to match play - most of the Rules issues will disappear (loss of hole is easy to apply, and you can concede holes), you'll play faster and probably both of you will enjoy it more.

Still no offense taken, I never stated we were playing match, I said best ball and instead of playing for holes we just used the best score and kept tally. We played 5 rounds and played different types each round, so match play was played just not that round

I really was not going to make him drive back to the teebox to retee, looking for a ball for 5 minutes already slowed us up. As for letting him play his first ball was more out of being friends with him for so long and being nice.

Jspangler, I hope you don't take offense at this, but I never can understand why two friends playing a game would consider it "nice" to let one have a hole they don't deserve. I certainly wouldn't want that "gift" from one of my friends.

If you like the guy, and want to be "nice" to your friend in this manner, why not just concede the whole match to him. Isn't that nicer still?

To me, friends should be able to compete in a friendly way via the rules. And if they can't do that, IMO they should play along side each other and not against each other. In any case, I sincerely hope you're having fun while trying to balance all that.

I don't take offense, the being nice was not really going to effect the outcome, we weren't playing a match play game we played best ball and took the total score, at that point in the match in believe we were up 12 strokes and the chances of him improving on the 5 from that lie was slim.

Please don't offense at this post, but you may wish to look at the definitions of 'forms of match play" and 'forms of stroke play' definitions in the Rule book and sort out your terminology. It would really help in answering your question. I'm still not certain if you were playing match play or stroke play, but it sounds like stroke play. Further, I'd suggest switching to match play - most of the Rules issues will disappear (loss of hole is easy to apply, and you can concede holes), you'll play faster and probably both of you will enjoy it more.

Still no offense taken, I never stated we were playing match, I said best ball and instead of playing for holes we just used the best score and kept tally. We played 5 rounds and played different types each round, so match play was played just not that round

Certainly your terminology indicates match play:
- Best ball is a form of match play
- Opponent only exists in match play
- You use the term "match" frequently.

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1359579916' post='6331841']
[quote name='Jspangler' timestamp='1359578308' post='6331661']
[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1359575586' post='6331357']
[quote name='Jspangler' timestamp='1359567315' post='6330543']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1359566476' post='6330391']
[quote name='Jspangler' timestamp='1359563802' post='6330063']
I really was not going to make him drive back to the teebox to retee, looking for a ball for 5 minutes already slowed us up. As for letting him play his first ball was more out of being friends with him for so long and being nice.
[/quote]

Jspangler, I hope you don't take offense at this, but I never can understand why two friends playing a game would consider it "nice" to let one have a hole they don't deserve. I certainly wouldn't want that "gift" from one of my friends.

If you like the guy, and want to be "nice" to your friend in this manner, why not just concede the whole match to him. Isn't that nicer still?

To me, friends should be able to compete in a friendly way via the rules. And if they can't do that, IMO they should play along side each other and not against each other. In any case, I sincerely hope you're having fun while trying to balance all that.
[/quote]

I don't take offense, the being nice was not really going to effect the outcome, we weren't playing a match play game we played best ball and took the total score, at that point in the match in believe we were up 12 strokes and the chances of him improving on the 5 from that lie was slim.
[/quote]

Please don't offense at this post, but you may wish to look at the definitions of 'forms of match play" and 'forms of stroke play' definitions in the Rule book and sort out your terminology. It would really help in answering your question. I'm still not certain if you were playing match play or stroke play, but it sounds like stroke play. Further, I'd suggest switching to match play - most of the Rules issues will disappear (loss of hole is easy to apply, and you can concede holes), you'll play faster and probably both of you will enjoy it more.
[/quote]

Still no offense taken, I never stated we were playing match, I said best ball and instead of playing for holes we just used the best score and kept tally. We played 5 rounds and played different types each round, so match play was played just not that round
[/quote]

Certainly your terminology indicates match play:
- Best ball is a form of match play
- Opponent only exists in match play
- You use the term "match" frequently.

No offence meant.
[/quote]

Here is the Definition of best ball- [size=3]Best ball can be played using 2-, 3- or 4-person teams. Each player on the team plays his or her own golf ball throughout the round, and on each hole the low score - or "best ball" - of the group serves as the team score. Player A gets a 5, B gets a 4, C gets a 6, D gets a 6, then the team score for that hole is 4, because the low score of the group was B's 4.[/size][size=3]
Best ball is usually played as stroke play with the total score added up at the end of the round. It can be played as match play, but best-ball match play with more than 2-person teams results in a lot of[url="http://golf.about.com/od/golfterms/g/bldef_halved.htm"]halved[/url] holes.[/size][size=3]Opponents exist in all matches when playing to win something. Every week the PGA plays and event and 1 person has roughly 150 opponents[/size][size=3]And finally I never once stated match in my opening post.[/size]

Im sorry, so you are stating you do not have an opponent in stroke play? Next please search what is best ball in golf and tell me what you find. I am sorry I have not read the Definitions of the ROG I forgot they trump the English definition on Golfwrx

Im sorry, so you are stating you do not have an opponent in stroke play? Next please search what is best ball in golf and tell me what you find. I am sorry I have not read the Definitions of the ROG I forgot they trump the English definition on Golfwrx

You asked an innocent question in your first post but I'm afraid, haven't been gently dealt with in this "Rules" folder.

Two parts of your on-course problem are apparent. First, once the five minute search for the ball was completed the ball was lost and Rule 27 became applicable. In the spirit of keeping it moving you and/or the other player settled on a somewhat "homemade" solution which does not comply with the Rules.

The second issue is separate, that is the embedded ball problem. And I think that you now have a good handle on that. Remembering that since the ball was lost the embedded question is merely academic.

There are a number of learned contributors to this Rules folder and they sometimes take umbrage when the Rules are not followed to the T. They're not sadists, just sticklers, and sometimes don't mince their words. Don't take their words as criticism of you as a person. They mean well ... I know they do. I've been in and around the Rules thing for awhile and I'm sometimes wrong but I, too, learn a lot from these guys here.

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Im sorry, so you are stating you do not have an opponent in stroke play? Next please search what is best ball in golf and tell me what you find. I am sorry I have not read the Definitions of the ROG I forgot they trump the English definition on Golfwrx

I'm not sure if you're frustrated with me on this or not, but let me move straight ahead and say that IMO, when playing by the Rules of Golf, the definitions in the Rules of Golf do trump other definitions. Nothing to do with GolfWRX, everything to do with the Rules.

In stroke play, people you compete with are called Fellow Competitors. In match it’s Opponents. (I believe the intention of the different words is to help differentiate the different games, and the associated different rules and different penalties.)

Single: A match in which one player plays against another player.
Threesome: A match in which one player plays against two other players, and each side plays one ball.
Foursome: A match in which two players play against two other players, and each side plays one ball.
Three-Ball: Three players play a match against one another, each playing his own ball. Each player is playing two distinct matches.
Best-Ball: A match in which one player plays against the better ball of two other players or the best ball of three other players.
Four-Ball: A match in which two players play their better ball against the better ball of two other players. Forms of Stroke Play

Individual: A competition in which each competitor plays as an individual.
Foursome: A competition in which two competitors play as partners and play one ball.
Four-Ball: A competition in which two competitors play as partners, each playing his own ball. The lower score of the partners is the score for the hole. If one partner fails to complete the play of a hole, there is no penalty.

But really J, there's a lost ball that you're willing to overlook, but you're not willing to overlook the fact that the newly found ball is embedded in the rough rather than in the short grass, and you become a stickler over that with your friend. If you want to decide for yourself what to do in that free-for-all, go ahead. I won't judge you.

I thought you wanted to know the actual rule, and now I don't really know what you wanted. All I want is for you to enjoy playing, so please do.

To simply state the rule is fine, and really I pretty much knew the rule but after seeing Tiger think his ball was embedded in a bush, I thought maybe I was wrong. I have no problem with you stating the rule what I have a problem with is asking a question and people saying well there are so many things wrong with this situation I do not know where to start, and how dare you play a round of golf that way. Then to get on your high horse with well the Rules of Golf Definition says you must have been playing match play because you used the word opponent.

I'm not sure exactly who you are complaining about, but let me try to diffuse the situation.

People often come on this forum looking for real rulings. Many do not know that many rulings depend on whether you're playing match or stroke play. So careful participants read the questions with an eye toward whether the question involves match or stroke play.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm willing to guess that people were not criticizing you, but rather interpreting you. And then it seems you got frustrated by their being specific about language. I attempted to make the language issues more clear, but it only seems to have frustrated things.

I don't think anyone was looking down on you, or telling you how you should play.

To simply state the rule is fine, and really I pretty much knew the rule but after seeing Tiger think his ball was embedded in a bush, I thought maybe I was wrong. I have no problem with you stating the rule what I have a problem with is asking a question and people saying well there are so many things wrong with this situation I do not know where to start, and how dare you play a round of golf that way. Then to get on your high horse with well the Rules of Golf Definition says you must have been playing match play because you used the word opponent.

Dude , are you on Deer Antler or something? Your rage is not welcome in this forum and neither are your insults to well respected members. Just drop it and cool off.

To simply state the rule is fine, and really I pretty much knew the rule but after seeing Tiger think his ball was embedded in a bush, I thought maybe I was wrong. I have no problem with you stating the rule what I have a problem with is asking a question and people saying well there are so many things wrong with this situation I do not know where to start, and how dare you play a round of golf that way. Then to get on your high horse with well the Rules of Golf Definition says you must have been playing match play because you used the word opponent.

Dude , are you on Deer Antler or something? Your rage is not welcome in this forum and neither are your insults to well respected members. Just drop it and cool off.

Could you give me ROG definition of Deer Antler please. Thanks for the useful post.

As for Sawgrass, I did not mean to snap and you were not really the I was posting towards as there were a few more frustrating post before you, you were just one towards the end. I will say that probably 80% of the time that some says don't take offensive you are probably posting something that is probably going to offend them. This will be the last time I say this and it will be the end of me of the argument. But to say will well the ROG defines a word that you are using differently than the English definition would obviously be frustrating as it doesn't really tell me wether or not I was wrong in that situation. It could have been playing Match Play that round and maybe thought if he got a free drop he could get up and down to save Par as we had made a 4, in turn he wins the hole but that would not change what the rule would be.

Just an FYI, but almost every tournament played is with the local rule to the embedded ball Rule. Courses almost never have it posted and as your own committee you should play the embedded ball through the green. All PGA Tour tourneys are played that way and all USGA tourneys are played that way.

To not use the local rule to the embedded ball rule is only going to cause confusion and arguments. Every player will say, "but I saw so-and-so on the tour get a drop from that exact same situation" and he did.

Just an FYI, but almost every tournament played is with the local rule to the embedded ball Rule. Courses almost never have it posted and as your own committee you should play the embedded ball through the green. All PGA Tour tourneys are played that way and all USGA tourneys are played that way.

To not use the local rule to the embedded ball rule is only going to cause confusion and arguments. Every player will say, "but I saw so-and-so on the tour get a drop from that exact same situation" and he did.

Specimen local rules, section B, Relief for embedded ball.

Thanks for the insight, I honestly couldn't tell you the local rule, as we were on a golf trip @ courses none of us have played.

To simply state the rule is fine, and really I pretty much knew the rule but after seeing Tiger think his ball was embedded in a bush, I thought maybe I was wrong. I have no problem with you stating the rule what I have a problem with is asking a question and people saying well there are so many things wrong with this situation I do not know where to start, and how dare you play a round of golf that way. Then to get on your high horse with well the Rules of Golf Definition says you must have been playing match play because you used the word opponent.

Dude , are you on Deer Antler or something? Your rage is not welcome in this forum and neither are your insults to well respected members. Just drop it and cool off.

Could you give me ROG definition of Deer Antler please. Thanks for the useful post.

As for Sawgrass, I did not mean to snap and you were not really the I was posting towards as there were a few more frustrating post before you, you were just one towards the end. I will say that probably 80% of the time that some says don't take offensive you are probably posting something that is probably going to offend them. This will be the last time I say this and it will be the end of me of the argument. But to say will well the ROG defines a word that you are using differently than the English definition would obviously be frustrating as it doesn't really tell me wether or not I was wrong in that situation. It could have been playing Match Play that round and maybe thought if he got a free drop he could get up and down to save Par as we had made a 4, in turn he wins the hole but that would not change what the rule would be.

It's quite obviously me that you are po'd with. With each post I said "no offence intended" and was sincere in doing so (you can believe that or not, as you wish). This is a Rules of golf forum, and I was trying to point out that using the correct Rules of golf terminology will make it easier for the responders and enhance the probability of getting a correct answer to your question.

Im sorry, so you are stating you do not have an opponent in stroke play? Next please search what is best ball in golf and tell me what you find. I am sorry I have not read the Definitions of the ROG I forgot they trump the English definition on Golfwrx

You asked an innocent question in your first post but I'm afraid, haven't been gently dealt with in this "Rules" folder.

Two parts of your on-course problem are apparent. First, once the five minute search for the ball was completed the ball was lost and Rule 27 became applicable. In the spirit of keeping it moving you and/or the other player settled on a somewhat "homemade" solution which does not comply with the Rules.

The second issue is separate, that is the embedded ball problem. And I think that you now have a good handle on that. Remembering that since the ball was lost the embedded question is merely academic.

There are a number of learned contributors to this Rules folder and they sometimes take umbrage when the Rules are not followed to the T. They're not sadists, just sticklers, and sometimes don't mince their words. Don't take their words as criticism of you as a person. They mean well ... I know they do. I've been in and around the Rules thing for awhile and I'm sometimes wrong but I, too, learn a lot from these guys here.

I do undestand what the op is stating. I just joined wrx and it does seem that some are extra quick to critique language used even when it has no impact on the true intent of the question. The op should have just asked about proper play of a plugged ball so as to not get a dissertation on four ball or how to play a lost ball.

How many here have within their foursome been searching for a lost ball, without a stopwatch, then to have that person say ill go back and re hit. 10 seconds after that, someone finds the ball. How many actually go back to the tee?

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