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<b>Moderator</b>

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But when Christ spoke to Moses was Moses in a cemetery? Or was he alive in Christ? See I actually believe in being alive once I shed this mortal coil. How about you?

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Paul said we wait for the redemption of our bodies.
The fact that God allowed Moses and Elijah to have a temporary glorified body of some kind or another does not abrogate the fact that Moses still had died. God buried him. He along with all those who have died await the resurrection. We are not to pray to the dead. That is in the realm of the occult.

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Put the question a different way.
Where is the scriptural basis for such a thing?
As far as I have found there isn't one.
I know they call it intercessory prayer. Yet the Bible clearly says we have 1 intercessor, which is Christ.

So while not specifically prohibited, it is made clear that it is of no effect.

Besides, even though Moses and Elijah did appear, Christ did not pray to them, he talked with them, big difference.

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Paul said we wait for the redemption of our bodies.
The fact that God allowed Moses and Elijah to have a temporary glorified body of some kind or another does not abrogate the fact that Moses still had died. God buried him. He along with all those who have died await the resurrection. We are not to pray to the dead. That is in the realm of the occult.

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It seem Moses didn't have to wait and spoke openly to Jesus with Elijah. How is that possible if he's still waiting for the redemption of his body if he where not alive? Also Jesus spoke to Lazerus. He was raised and is alive in Christ. Is Lazerus still waiting on the redemption of his body? If so how is it he walked around if he were waiting on the redepmtion of his body? Now I'm not saying there isn't a redemption of our body but even without it we are still alive in Christ.

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Put the questions a different way.
Where is the scriptural basis for such a thing?
As far as I have found there isn't one.
I know they call it intercessory prayer. Yet the bible clearly says we have 1 intercessor, which is Christ.

So while not specifically prohibited, it is made clear that it is of no effect.

Besides, even though Moses and Elijah did appear, Christ did not pray to them, he talked with them, big difference.

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Mt. of Transfiguration. The resurrection of the Saints in Jerusalem at the point of the Messiahs death. The book of Revelation where the elders in heaven take the prayers of those on earth before God.

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It is hard to find things when they are not spoken of as in the Bible.
Found the mountain. No mention of prayer to the dead.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.
Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.
Mat 17:4 And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah."
Mat 17:5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."
Mat 17:6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified.
Mat 17:7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, "Rise, and have no fear."
Mat 17:8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

Resurrection of the saints, again no mention of prayer to the dead. the dead who trusted God arose to life again as proof of Jesus deity. No one prayed to them.

Revelations 5 also does not mention prayers to the dead, unless you claim the Lamb is dead.

I checked both KJV and ESv and prayer to the dead is not listed in the instances you posted.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.
Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

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Now isn't this the same Moses which Deut says

5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord, 6 and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day. 7 Moses was 120 years old when he died.

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Yet here he is alive speaking (communicating) with Jesus and the Apostles heard their conversation. As can be seen in this passage you quote.

Mat 17:4 And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah."
Mat 17:5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."
Mat 17:6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified.
Mat 17:7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, "Rise, and have no fear."

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Looks like a Moses and Elijah Apparition does it not? Also look at Luke.

And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

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Resurrection of the saints, again no mention of prayer to the dead. the dead who trusted God arose to life again as proof of Jesus deity. No one prayed to them.

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Again prayer is communication lets look at Matthew's gospel

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

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Revelations 5 also does not mention prayers to the dead, unless you claim the Lamb is dead.

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I don't and I don't claim that anyone in Christ is dead either but they are alive in him. Though Moses had physically died is he dead on the MT. of Transfiguration or alive? He looks alive to me. But look at Revelation 5 clearly

the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

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The 24 Elders are alive in Christ but they aren't here on Earth they are in heaven. And they take the prayers of the saints and present them before the Lord. BTW didn't the Lamb also die but now is alive?

I checked both KJV and ESv and prayer to the dead is not listed in the instances you posted

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Therefore its not properly prayer to the dead but to those who left here yet are alive in Christ. This Catholic practice of petitioning the saints in heaven for their prayers is a clear indication of their firm belief in the resurrection and life everlasting in Christ.

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Praying to someone who is dead means that someone who is considered as a Deity.

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Not always even in pagan cultures prayers to the ancestors the ancestors were not gods but spirits with access to spritual world

If the people pray to Mary in NY, LA, Mexico, Italy, Poland, Ireland, UK, Philippines, South Africa, and other millions of places, Mary cannot answer the prayer unless she is a goddes.

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Nope. Because as we see in revelation the elders gave the prayers to God who then is responsible for answering or not answering the prayers.

Unless Mary is Omni-Present existing everywhere in the world, she cannot answer the prayer from millions of places, and such prayers will become USELESS and in vain

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Again the elders are not present everywhere at all times but prayers are collected by them in some fashion and presented to God. Therefore God has a mechanism in place that doesn't require omni-presence for collection of prayers which are presented to him by the elders.

Moreover Mary should understand all the languages of the world, understand all the words like medical or computer or technical terminology.

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Well, the Aposltes understood the conversation between Jesus, Moses and Elijah. The fact the Apostles spoke Aramaic did not hinder their understanding of Moses which whom the language significantly changed by Jesus' time. Just like in English the Cantabury tales are hardly understandable today "Whan that aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of march hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
Tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the ram his halve cours yronne," Therefore the Holy Spirit gives understanding as all tongues are under The Lords lordship.

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Administrator

Administrator

Lets look at the passages you posted. Also note prayer is a form of communication most closely associated with petition.

Now isn't this the same Moses which Deut says Yet here he is alive speaking (communicating) with Jesus and the Apostles heard their conversation. As can be seen in this passage you quote.
Looks like a Moses and Elijah Apparition does it not? Also look at Luke.

Again prayer is communication lets look at Matthew's gospel

I don't and I don't claim that anyone in Christ is dead either but they are alive in him. Though Moses had physically died is he dead on the MT. of Transfiguration or alive? He looks alive to me.

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They were present, were they not? Was Jesus talking to them when they were in heaven? Was He praying to them?

But look at Revelation 5 clearly The 24 Elders are alive in Christ but they aren't here on Earth they are in heaven. And they take the prayers of the saints and present them before the Lord. BTW didn't the Lamb also die but now is alive?

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Do we see that these prayers were communicated directly to them and then they are interceeding for us? I don't see that supported in the passage. Remember that there was a lot of figurative language that went on in Revelation that we cannot use as supporting earthly doctrine.

Therefore its not properly prayer to the dead but to those who left here yet are alive in Christ. This Catholic practice of petitioning the saints in heaven for their prayers is a clear indication of their firm belief in the resurrection and life everlasting in Christ.

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It is a clear picture of them believing the saints in heaven are omnipotent and omnipresent - two attributes that are specifically and only God's attributes.

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Active Member

Not always even in pagan cultures prayers to the ancestors the ancestors were not gods but spirits with access to spritual world

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Prayer to Mary is the same as the Ancestor worship, which is pagan.

Nope. Because as we see in revelation the elders gave the prayers to God who then is responsible for answering or not answering the prayers.

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Yes, Only to God!

Again the elders are not present everywhere at all times but prayers are collected by them in some fashion and presented to God. Therefore God has a mechanism in place that doesn't require omni-presence for collection of prayers which are presented to him by the elders.

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No one collect the prayers in the Bible.

Well, the Aposltes understood the conversation between Jesus, Moses and Elijah. The fact the Apostles spoke Aramaic did not hinder their understanding of Moses which whom the language significantly changed by Jesus' time. Just like in English the Cantabury tales are hardly understandable today "Whan that aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of march hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
Tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the ram his halve cours yronne," Therefore the Holy Spirit gives understanding as all tongues are under The Lords lordship.
Again not true.

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They didn't pray to Moses or to Elijah

You can bring only the tales like Canterbury tale, nothing from the Bible.

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Nope. The difference is that It is because she is found in Christ that makes her alive and in this communion which all believers are connect is in Christ and because of Christ. Whereas in Pagan ancestor worship their humanity is the commonality held and the ancestors "goal" is the perpetual generation of descendits. Where Mary and others who are in Christ is to lead people to Christ.

Yes, Only to God!

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Yes they presented them to God but the collected the bowls did they not?

each holding...golden bowls full of incense,which are the prayers of the saints

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How did they come by these bowls? Unless they gathered them?

They didn't pray to Moses or to Elijah

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Jesus certainly spoke with Moses and Elijah before he died.

You can bring only the tales like Canterbury tale, nothing from the Bible.

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This certainly shows that you have context issues. I brought up the Canterbury tales to make a point that the Language Moses spoke had changed significantly to the language Jesus, and the apostles spoke. By the time of Jesus and the Apostles came they were speaking Aramaic.

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Active Member

Nope. The difference is that It is because she is found in Christ that makes her alive and in this communion which all believers are connect is in Christ and because of Christ. Whereas in Pagan ancestor worship their humanity is the commonality held and the ancestors "goal" is the perpetual generation of descendits. Where Mary and others who are in Christ is to lead people to Christ.

Yes they presented them to God but the collected the bowls did they not?

Read Revelation 5 again How did they come by these bowls? Unless they gathered them?

Jesus certainly spoke with Moses and Elijah before he died.

This certainly shows that you have context issues. I brought up the Canterbury tales to make a point that the Language Moses spoke had changed significantly to the language Jesus, and the apostles spoke. By the time of Jesus and the Apostles came they were speaking Aramaic.

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Mary is taking rest ( Rev 14:13) She never learned English!

God can speak to the dead, but nobody prayed to Moses or to Elijah at all. Who prayed to them about what subject?

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