The fact remains that APPLE has gone way overboard in their hostility to the consumer. If you can't see that then I guess you must be under the influence of the RDF. Like it or not the iPhone is a computer, yes a small one but plenty powerful none the less. I just don't see any body on this thread nor any other coming up with justification that I can buy into for APPLE's behavior.

The fact remains that APPLE has gone way overboard in their hostility to the consumer. If you can't see that then I guess you must be under the influence of the RDF. Like it or not the iPhone is a computer, yes a small one but plenty powerful none the less. I just don't see any body on this thread nor any other coming up with justification that I can buy into for APPLE's behavior.

Dave

The point was that it's been discussed to death.

Apple really can't do anything about the specific instance that KG4MXV mentioned, they "signed a deal with the devil" and now they are left having to deal with it.

But just as happens with most issues of this nature, it is good to reestablish and rediscover what the issues were/are (whether those that "were" still "are."). Oldtimers might sigh and shrug, but newcomers (recall that every one of us was one of those once) need to often reinvent their own wheels.

The fact that something has been discussed to death does not necessarily mean it was resolved, and if it wasn't, it does not mean that it is non-resolvable by a new group of posters re-igniting the discussion.

Tim Cook is gay, believes in climate change, and cares deeply about racial equality. Deal with it (and please spare us if you can't).

But just as happens with most issues of this nature, it is good to reestablish and rediscover what the issues were/are (whether those that "were" still "are."). Oldtimers might sigh and shrug, but newcomers (recall that every one of us was one of those once) need to often reinvent their own wheels.

The fact that something has been discussed to death does not necessarily mean it was resolved, and if it wasn't, it does not mean that it is non-resolvable by a new group of posters re-igniting the discussion.

In this case, discussing it is not necessarily going to change things, and the recent discussions are still relatively new. Some of the complaints with respect to iPhone will be addressed, maybe some already planned and just not ready, some may be in response to complaints but there are just some things that aren't likely to change any time soon.

Apple really can't do anything about the specific instance that KG4MXV mentioned, they "signed a deal with the devil" and now they are left having to deal with it.

Guess what JeffDM after I return the toy and get my money back from both apple and at&t I will have $1100.00 back in my pocket and have sent a message to apple that crud is not going to fly with me. And if any one else feels the way I do PLEASE return your phone if enough people do it will be noticed.

First I think everybody ought to realize that my beef, with Apple, is in running third party apps. Some here seem to be confusing that with unlocking the phone for a different carrier. These are two different things altogether.

Second people should look at this article: http://arstechnica.com/journals/appl...iphone-to-bits
over on Ars. Here you have a representative of Apple the corporation saying that Apple doesn't have an issue with third party applications. This only a couple of weeks ago. So either he didn't have a clue about the update, in which case he is utterly useless or we have been subjected to a corporate lie.

There are not to many ways to look at this. Either he knew what was coming and purposefully mislead the public or he is useless as a Apple representative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by melgross

Not at all.

If you modify a piece of equipment, or the controlling software in a way not supported by the manufacturer, they have no responsibility to fix something that your unauthorized software mods has bricked when a legit upgrade from the manufacturer is applied.

You can argue all you want but clearly from public statements made by Apple representatives the use of third party apps though unsupported wasn't something they where against.

Further you seem to have a big problem here in understanding what is going on. It is Apples software that is bricking the iPhones NOT THE MODS. Further it is Apples software that is preventing third party apps from loading now.

Quote:

Once you've modded it this way, you no longer have the product that "the user originally paid for", but a bastardized version.

That is rather a deep pile of BS. That is like saying that ones warranty on a PC should be suspended if a piece of software that is not manufacture supported is loaded on to. The point is the iPhone is a computer running Mac OS X that can support third party apps just as well as any other Apple computer. I really can't fathom how you can equate loading an application onto a computer as bastardizing it.

Quote:

You should know this when you buy the product, esp when the company says they are not going to support this stuff, and when the warrantee states this specificlly.

I do hope you read the supplied link. Not much more than a couple of weeks ago they where practically embracing third party apps.

Quote:

Sure, you can do whatever you want with the product. But they don't have to fix it it either.

If they screw it up they most certainly have an obligation to fix it. This is the point I'm getting at and everyone keeps glossing over Apple is the one responsible for the bricks. They are responsible for the fixes in the same way that MS is responsible for the patches and updates they offer.

Quote:

If you're not happy about this then you shouldn't buy it.

No fooling. I just hope that the consumer rights people start to pick up on this a bit.

As I've mentioned in other forums this is the equivalent to taking you care into the garage for service and having the tech apply an update that leaves you with a few features missing in exchange for more limited access to the automobile. It can be likened to adding a fancy new dashboard clock and at the same time deleting half of the accessible radio stations on the car radio and locking out its CD transport.

I wonder what people would do if the calendar app of some other program was deleted or made inoperative.

The fact remains that APPLE has gone way overboard in their hostility to the consumer. If you can't see that then I guess you must be under the influence of the RDF. Like it or not the iPhone is a computer, yes a small one but plenty powerful none the less. I just don't see any body on this thread nor any other coming up with justification that I can buy into for APPLE's behavior.

Dave

Apple has done precisely what they have said. They said that they would update the device, and add features. They are doing that.

They have a warrantee which warns of not doing unauthorized changes, as that might damage the machine.

They say that if you have unlocked the machine, it MIGHT not work.

Their responsibility to the vast majority of people who decided to abide by their contracts that they agreed to when they bought the phone, trumps any responsibility to those who have tampered with it.

You are under the influence of the thought that you can do anything you like, and that Apple must make sure that no matter what you've done, they must fix it. You're in your own RDF field.

It doesn't much matter what you think this device is. Jobs said several times that it's a phone, and not a computer.

Also note that if you've just added programs, your phone should still upgrade just fine. Many people have reported this.

It's mostly the unlocking that causes a final problem.

Just remember that Apple, and other companies, always say that unauthorized modifications to their products isn't supported. If you do that, none will service them. It's not just Apple.

You just thought that Apple would let things slide, and so you'd take the chance. Now that they haven't, you're mad.

You have no right to be.

I've modded products. But I've never expected the manufacturer to service them afterwards. What people usually do is to wait until the warrantee runs out, and then they do it.

If you're not willing to wait, then you must be willing to take the risk, and expect the worst.

Guess what JeffDM after I return the toy and get my money back from both apple and at&t I will have $1100.00 back in my pocket and have sent a message to apple that crud is not going to fly with me. And if any one else feels the way I do PLEASE return your phone if enough people do it will be noticed.

Wow! You're tough! Apple and ATT will shiver if you and a few others try to send back their phones. I hope youve done this before the 14 days run out.

Apple's sales only seem to be up 70% since the price drop. You'll get 'em for sure.

Exactly what do you intend to tell them? That you decided not to abide by the contract you signed by buying, and activating the device?

First I think everybody ought to realize that my beef, with Apple, is in running third party apps. Some here seem to be confusing that with unlocking the phone for a different carrier. These are two different things altogether.

You are under a misapprehension. Adding third party apps isn't something that Apple necessarily wants to prevent. But, it happens.

How many times do you have to update a program because Apple has updated the OS? When Apple has an upgrade, such as we will have shortly in 10.5 (hopefully), many programs stop working, and we have to wait for them to get fixed. how many times has Apple said to unplug external hardware before up grading? How many problems have we had from Firewire? I lost two drives because of that.

Yet, we don't say that Apple is deliberately doing this. Or do you?

Quote:

Second people should look at this article: http://arstechnica.com/journals/appl...iphone-to-bits
over on Ars. Here you have a representative of Apple the corporation saying that Apple doesn't have an issue with third party applications. This only a couple of weeks ago. So either he didn't have a clue about the update, in which case he is utterly useless or we have been subjected to a corporate lie.

This is old news already. I think that he was giving Apple's policy. But then others read what he had said, and told that it couldn't be guaranteed.

Quote:

There are not to many ways to look at this. Either he knew what was coming and purposefully mislead the public or he is useless as a Apple representative.

This wasn't the first time an executive of a company says something off the cuff, only to find out that there are ramifications that he didn't think about.

That's why it's so unusual for an Apple executive to do that. It's something that people here complain about.

This is why. He should have had his remarks vetted first. But, that can't be done in a live interview.

There doesn't have to be anything sinister about it as you imply. It's simply ridiculous to think that he would try to mislead the public on that. What would have been the point? You can't explain it.

You don't think that he would have known that he would have had his statement modified?

Quote:

You can argue all you want but clearly from public statements made by Apple representatives the use of third party apps though unsupported wasn't something they where against.

Further you seem to have a big problem here in understanding what is going on. It is Apples software that is bricking the iPhones NOT THE MODS. Further it is Apples software that is preventing third party apps from loading now.

No. It's pretty obvious that you are the one who dosn't know what is going on. You're so pissed that you don't have what you want that you're trying to find excuses for your mistake, to make yourself feel better.

Quote:

That is rather a deep pile of BS. That is like saying that ones warranty on a PC should be suspended if a piece of software that is not manufacture supported is loaded on to. The point is the iPhone is a computer running Mac OS X that can support third party apps just as well as any other Apple computer. I really can't fathom how you can equate loading an application onto a computer as bastardizing it.

PC's are made to load other software. Apple never said that they would allow unauthorized third parties to do so. Just the opposite. From the very beginning Jobs said that third party software was likely, but that it would have to go through Apple.

Quote:

I do hope you read the supplied link. Not much more than a couple of weeks ago they where practically embracing third party apps.

We all know what they said. You harp on one thing so much, you aren't thinking it through.

They never welcomed these unauthorized apps and installers. It was more like toleration.

The question from the very beginning was whether Apple would react unfavorability. They said they didn't care, but they have no responsibility to worry about whether they work or not.

Quote:

If they screw it up they most certainly have an obligation to fix it. This is the point I'm getting at and everyone keeps glossing over Apple is the one responsible for the bricks. They are responsible for the fixes in the same way that MS is responsible for the patches and updates they offer.

This is one of your big problems. You don't want to admit that it could be the third party work that's screwed up.

Don't you know that even with its computers, Apple warns developers not to use certain memory locations, "reserved" areas, or certain undocumented "features" of the OS, or hardware, because Apple may use them in the future, and the programs that utilize them may stop working?

Well, you may not have noticed, but so far, Apple has not released an SDK for this. These "developers" have no idea where they shouldn't be stepping. Apple hasn't told them where not to go. Is it really so surprising that things will either stop working, or get wiped out? Is it so surprising that Apple may be changing those specs as the phone's software evolves?

It shouldn't be.

Quote:

No fooling. I just hope that the consumer rights people start to pick up on this a bit.

That's absurd. Some twit will try to sue, but will lose.

Quote:

As I've mentioned in other forums this is the equivalent to taking you care into the garage for service and having the tech apply an update that leaves you with a few features missing in exchange for more limited access to the automobile. It can be likened to adding a fancy new dashboard clock and at the same time deleting half of the accessible radio stations on the car radio and locking out its CD transport.

You can say it all you want, but it isn't any more true because you are saying it.

It's more like you modding the engine, which then no longer works when you take it in for service, and they either require you to pay for the entire job of putting it right, or you lose your warrantee, and they won't fix it at all.

Quote:

I wonder what people would do if the calendar app of some other program was deleted or made inoperative.

It's easy to shoot down people, but nothing changes that Apple's made a shitty decision that makes their product less interesting and less compelling. It's a sad state of affairs for a company who used to implore people to think different. Apple apologists will find ten ways to explain how it is actually great that the iPhone has less potential today, but we all know that if MSFT did exactly this, folks would team them mercilessly. Without a doubt it is Jobs least popular move in years, and in time will be seen as the beginning of the end of Apple's dominance of cutting-edge cool. It's a sad day.

It's easy to shoot down people, but nothing changes that Apple's made a shitty decision that makes their product less interesting and less compelling. It's a sad state of affairs for a company who used to implore people to think different. Apple apologists will find ten ways to explain how it is actually great that the iPhone has less potential today, but we all know that if MSFT did exactly this, folks would team them mercilessly. Without a doubt it is Jobs least popular move in years, and in time will be seen as the beginning of the end of Apple's dominance of cutting-edge cool. It's a sad day.

You're doing a nice, but ineffectual, job of insulting those who think you're wrong.

Just don't think that because you want something, that you have to get it.

friend of mine succed to downgrade to 1.0.2 after the update. don't know if this is already known

edit: yes it is, its even on engadget

Hiii...i donno who you are but im in desperate need of help...i have bought the i-phone paying $1000 just yesterday and within 12 hours it has got locked due to the upgrade...im from india and so it is an unlocked phone...please i need help on this...how do we degrade it???? it will be helpfull if you can let me know how to go about degrading it to 1.0.2....please....i need help very badly.......Thanks in advance...

If you dont mind I have a question...where did you get cool icons??? and when you put your phone back did you have to re-install all of your music and etc...? I restored once and it took an hour to put my phone numbers and stuff in...but if they are really cool it would be worth it!!

[QUOTE=dtidmore;1148950]OK, last update I had to do a restore first before the upgrade would work. After I finally got the previous update installed, I reinstalled my custom icons. Since all I had hacked was the icons, and I re-jailed afterwards, I decided to see if the latest update would work. It worked perfectly. I was beginning to get a bit worried,

Hiii...i donno who you are but im in desperate need of help...i have bought the i-phone paying $1000 just yesterday and within 12 hours it has got locked due to the upgrade...im from india and so it is an unlocked phone...please i need help on this...how do we degrade it???? it will be helpfull if you can let me know how to go about degrading it to 1.0.2....please....i need help very badly.......Thanks in advance...

I was hoping for the option of the lenght of time the backlite was on..it is just such a short period of time~~hardly worth putting wallpaper on!! When I updated the light STAYED on...like for 5 minutes everytime and the battery was going downhill FAST. I finally clicked the top on/off button (didnt hold it just clicked it) and it seems to have fixed the problem. I dont know if this was there before but you can click it and the lite comes on with whatever info you are currently dong btw when i was updating the ! in the triangle thingy came up and I just ignored it....it finally did update but it took quite a while...over 6 minutes~~~
I do LOVE LOVE LOVE this phone!!! it is almost all i'd hoped for..oh one more question when I IM the keyboard wont turn on the side...that offers a bigger screen is this the way it should work???
thanks

Apple has done precisely what they have said. They said that they would update the device, and add features. They are doing that.

They most certainly are, it is what this discussion is all about. One of those added negative features is the limiting of the owners ability to load soft.

Quote:

They have a warrantee which warns of not doing unauthorized changes, as that might damage the machine.

We seem to be going around and around about this. The only entity that is damaging the machine is Apple. So me where any of he recently created apps for the iPhone have damaged anything.

Quote:

They say that if you have unlocked the machine, it MIGHT not work.

Well that is very good for them. The reality is that they have put extremely tight control on what can be loaded on to the machine. It is not a question of MIGHT, it is very obvious that they have strived to employ any and every method at their disposal to keep people from loading software.

Quote:

Their responsibility to the vast majority of people who decided to abide by their contracts that they agreed to when they bought the phone, trumps any responsibility to those who have tampered with it.

Like it or not a lot of people have not engaged in those contracts. They see the iPhone as personal property that they purchased.

Quote:

You are under the influence of the thought that you can do anything you like, and that Apple must make sure that no matter what you've done, they must fix it. You're in your own RDF field.

I never once said anything like that. You continue to worm around the reality that they have taken a device with a specific set of behaviors and eliminated some of those behaviors through this software update. They directly attacked a usage that not more than a few weeks ago they said they did not have a problem with.

Quote:

It doesn't much matter what you think this device is. Jobs said several times that it's a phone, and not a computer.

Then apparently Jobs does know what he is marketing. Phones cost $19. By any reasonable measure this iPhone plays against a different set of devices known as smart phones. Smart phones = computers. If the device can't be managed and used like a computer then why bother with a smart phone at all.

Quote:

Also note that if you've just added programs, your phone should still upgrade just fine. Many people have reported this.

It's mostly the unlocking that causes a final problem.

I don't even care about unlocking to change carriers. It is the iPhones previous ability to run apps that is important to me.

Quote:

Just remember that Apple, and other companies, always say that unauthorized modifications to their products isn't supported. If you do that, none will service them. It's not just Apple.

You just thought that Apple would let things slide, and so you'd take the chance. Now that they haven't, you're mad.

Mad??? - that is a mental state I haven't been in lately. What I am is pissed off. I'm pissed off because Apple had a product that was shaping up into something that I thought could be very useful to me. It would have certainly been a better investment than a laptop computer for example. Now Apple has a device that is barely more useful than a $19 cell phone.

Quote:

You have no right to be.

Well this I take exception to. Remember I'm the customer or potential customer here. It is my responsibility to raise issues when I don't like a product or the direction it is taking.

Say you take your car into the shop and they re flash the engine management computer so you can't go faster that 50 MPH. Do you roll over and take it in the rear or do you raise hell about it? Remember you paid for a car that could go highway speeds.

Quote:

I've modded products. But I've never expected the manufacturer to service them afterwards. What people usually do is to wait until the warrantee runs out, and then they do it.

I understand this but I hardly consider loading software onto a smart phone to be modding the unit.

Quote:

If you're not willing to wait, then you must be willing to take the risk, and expect the worst.

Is it the norm in your area to do business with people that you can only expect the worst from?

They most certainly are, it is what this discussion is all about. One of those added negative features is the limiting of the owners ability to load soft.

We seem to be going around and around about this. The only entity that is damaging the machine is Apple. So me where any of he recently created apps for the iPhone have damaged anything.

Well that is very good for them. The reality is that they have put extremely tight control on what can be loaded on to the machine. It is not a question of MIGHT, it is very obvious that they have strived to employ any and every method at their disposal to keep people from loading software.

Like it or not a lot of people have not engaged in those contracts. They see the iPhone as personal property that they purchased.

I never once said anything like that. You continue to worm around the reality that they have taken a device with a specific set of behaviors and eliminated some of those behaviors through this software update. They directly attacked a usage that not more than a few weeks ago they said they did not have a problem with.

Then apparently Jobs does know what he is marketing. Phones cost $19. By any reasonable measure this iPhone plays against a different set of devices known as smart phones. Smart phones = computers. If the device can't be managed and used like a computer then why bother with a smart phone at all.

I don't even care about unlocking to change carriers. It is the iPhones previous ability to run apps that is important to me.

Mad??? - that is a mental state I haven't been in lately. What I am is pissed off. I'm pissed off because Apple had a product that was shaping up into something that I thought could be very useful to me. It would have certainly been a better investment than a laptop computer for example. Now Apple has a device that is barely more useful than a $19 cell phone.

Well this I take exception to. Remember I'm the customer or potential customer here. It is my responsibility to raise issues when I don't like a product or the direction it is taking.

Say you take your car into the shop and they re flash the engine management computer so you can't go faster that 50 MPH. Do you roll over and take it in the rear or do you raise hell about it? Remember you paid for a car that could go highway speeds.

Is it the norm in your area to do business with people that you can only expect the worst from?

Dave

The main problem with your arguments is that Apple has not changed anything about what you bought. You still have your hardware, you still have your software (I just downgraded to 1.0.2 for all the reasons stated) so they haven't changed anything.

Apple has no responsibility to support the changes done against the EULA.

You are right in a later post that the customer is King but the only tool the customer really has is to go elsewhere. I for one have no reason to do so as I can't find a phone like this anywhere else that does what this phone does (not a feature list, please don't drag this down that old and boring road again) .

The other tool for the customer is feedback, intelligent feedback. Apple provides for this and based on some actual feedback I've received I know they read it. It would be much more productive if people wrote up their reasons sanely and rationally and put them here.

Apple OWES current owners nothing as they have delivered what they have advertised and described. Every argument here is, directly or indirectly, trying to say that Apple will sell more iphones if they <put your argument here> Tell them directly. If enough people do this they are likely to listen.

My pessimism is that the market size for people wanting to do this is very small compared to the actual market that Apple is trying to address, those that just want to use what's already in the phone and don't care about the rest. I would be on of those, in fact, except the 1.1.1 update didn't add enough value at this time.

The main problem with your arguments is that Apple has not changed anything about what you bought. You still have your hardware, you still have your software (I just downgraded to 1.0.2 for all the reasons stated) so they haven't changed anything.

Well it is good to hear that down grades are working. It is beginning to sound like iPhone 1.1.1 is Apple's VISTA. Only things are happening much faster.

In any event I have to disagree with you in one respect if you have 1.1.1 on your machine you do not have the same software that you originally purchased. You have gone from a rather straight forward OS and application set to a heavily protected and signed set. A set of apps that dramatically alters your ability to use the machine.

Quote:

Apple has no responsibility to support the changes done against the EULA.

That assumes that the EULA is even legal or that you agreed to it in a legal manner. The EULA is thin ice as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

You are right in a later post that the customer is King but the only tool the customer really has is to go elsewhere. I for one have no reason to do so as I can't find a phone like this anywhere else that does what this phone does (not a feature list, please don't drag this down that old and boring road again) .

There are interesting products coming, I know this much. The problem of course is in the coming, you can't use something that is not on the market yet. The problem is that the iPhone was good enough that I would have not bothered with even looking at other hardware, at least until this update.

It only took a couple of installable apps to make the iPhone really attractive. Frankly it isn't that attractive with the base install.

Quote:

The other tool for the customer is feedback, intelligent feedback. Apple provides for this and based on some actual feedback I've received I know they read it. It would be much more productive if people wrote up their reasons sanely and rationally and put them here.

I may very well attempt to gather my thoughts into something constructive. Right now I'm not convinced that Apple gives a damn anymore with respect to their iPhone customers. This has been a very frustrating experience for me. Honestly I can't remember when I was last so displeased with a manufacture. This makes New Coke look like a blip.

Quote:

Apple OWES current owners nothing as they have delivered what they have advertised and described.

Well this is where I have to disagree. First the message has been confused significantly by Apple reps in the press. Second; there seems to have been a rapid updating of online documentation with respect to the iPhone and the iPod Touch. I remember reading on Apples web site that the Touch supported disk mode, I'm not sure if I could find that again on the web site.

In any event the situation isn't as clear as one would suspect, either with respect to advertised features or software behavior.

Quote:

Every argument here is, directly or indirectly, trying to say that Apple will sell more iphones if they <put your argument here> Tell them directly. If enough people do this they are likely to listen.

I may very well tell them what I think. Obviously I need to think it through really well, but I think Apple is already on a path that they won't be easily turned from.

The reason I think that is that somebody at Apple simply doesn't grasp what the consumer wants in these sorts of devices. Otherwise they never would have delivered this update. An update that delivered very little other than a locked out user.

Quote:

My pessimism is that the market size for people wanting to do this is very small compared to the actual market that Apple is trying to address, those that just want to use what's already in the phone and don't care about the rest. I would be on of those, in fact, except the 1.1.1 update didn't add enough value at this time.

See this is where I'm not convinced. Why would you invest in a smart phone, with the iPhones capability, when you don't need everything the platform can offer up.

Allied with this is the growing number of competitive smart phones that do offer some sort of programming environment. Sometimes that is JAVA but native apps are also known to be supported. Sure this is new territory as the smart phone business is rather new.

I will agree that the vast majority of people hardly stress the CPU in their cell phone now. For many this will not change. However if you look at the PC business many people couldn't grasp the utility of a PC on a businessman's desk. As OS and application software improved the ability to use a PC increase and people began to leverage the computers in a more aggressive manner.

I see the same thing happening with respect to hand held computers/cell phones. As people learn to leverage the units the expectation with respect to applications will go up accordingly. Sure we have a small minority of people expecting to make use of third party apps right now, but that is always the way with early adopters. As third party programs improve I would expect that more and more people would become interested in them. That is if they could be easily loaded onto their iPhones.

The only way for there to be zero interest in iPhone apps is if Apple was totally successful in convincing people that they don't exists or aren't possible. Problem is the cat is out of the bag so to speak.

Well it is good to hear that down grades are working. It is beginning to sound like iPhone 1.1.1 is Apple's VISTA. Only things are happening much faster.

No really a valid comparison at all. iPhone 1.1.1 was a very nice upgrade in all aspects, except this one. I would have liked more, but that's always the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard69

In any event I have to disagree with you in one respect if you have 1.1.1 on your machine you do not have the same software that you originally purchased. You have gone from a rather straight forward OS and application set to a heavily protected and signed set. A set of apps that dramatically alters your ability to use the machine.

But my point was upgrading is your option and downgrading is actually very easy, if you're using the 3rd party apps in the first place. (Please not that all of my arguments ONLY apply if you have NOT unlocked the SIM. That's a whole other ball of wax.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard69

That assumes that the EULA is even legal or that you agreed to it in a legal manner. The EULA is thin ice as far as I'm concerned.

Why? What I read seems very straight forward. You may not like it, but....

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard69

There are interesting products coming, I know this much. The problem of course is in the coming, you can't use something that is not on the market yet. The problem is that the iPhone was good enough that I would have not bothered with even looking at other hardware, at least until this update.

It only took a couple of installable apps to make the iPhone really attractive. Frankly it isn't that attractive with the base install.

And here is the fundamental problem. Apple's main feedback is from the 1+ million that are buying the phone and have no real interest in this thread's issue)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard69

I may very well attempt to gather my thoughts into something constructive. Right now I'm not convinced that Apple gives a damn anymore with respect to their iPhone customers. This has been a very frustrating experience for me. Honestly I can't remember when I was last so displeased with a manufacture. This makes New Coke look like a blip.

Well this is where I have to disagree. First the message has been confused significantly by Apple reps in the press. Second; there seems to have been a rapid updating of online documentation with respect to the iPhone and the iPod Touch. I remember reading on Apples web site that the Touch supported disk mode, I'm not sure if I could find that again on the web site.

In any event the situation isn't as clear as one would suspect, either with respect to advertised features or software behavior.

Here I have to strongly disagree. Apple has been very clear and consistent.

1) No SDK
2) No support for 3rd party devl. outside of web 2.0
3) No specific interference with 3rd party devl. (I'll come back to this below)
4) Specific efforts will be made to enforce locking of SIM (related to (3) )
5) Apple will add functionality over the next 24 months
6) They will always be willing to reconsider 2 as the situation changes

Now for my pure speculation.

1) From looking at the tool chain for iPhone and at Leopard I don't think the iPhone API is finished, internally and it certainly needs Leopard for an SDK so an SDK was never going to come out before Leopard release.

2) I think the driving force behind the current lock-down has nothing to do with restricting 3rd party support but to enforce the SIM locking. If hacker can get into the Phone the will more than likely unlock the SIM. If they can't it will almost impossible, and certainly much higher risk for non-experts. I think the successful SIM unlock forced Apple to try and lock the entire phone, which for moment they have by making the KEY much harder to discover, etc.

I think the key to getting Apple to open the phone is the contract with AT&T which is why I think feedback is important.

As I said, just my intuition and speculation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard69

I may very well tell them what I think. Obviously I need to think it through really well, but I think Apple is already on a path that they won't be easily turned from.

The reason I think that is that somebody at Apple simply doesn't grasp what the consumer wants in these sorts of devices. Otherwise they never would have delivered this update. An update that delivered very little other than a locked out user.

See this is where I'm not convinced. Why would you invest in a smart phone, with the iPhones capability, when you don't need everything the platform can offer up.

Allied with this is the growing number of competitive smart phones that do offer some sort of programming environment. Sometimes that is JAVA but native apps are also known to be supported. Sure this is new territory as the smart phone business is rather new.

I will agree that the vast majority of people hardly stress the CPU in their cell phone now. For many this will not change. However if you look at the PC business many people couldn't grasp the utility of a PC on a businessman's desk. As OS and application software improved the ability to use a PC increase and people began to leverage the computers in a more aggressive manner.

I think you answer your own speculation - third-party apps are not driving the market Apple is addressing, for the time being. Apple has time to deal with this and, as I said above, I would guess they have to go through AT&T.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard69

I see the same thing happening with respect to hand held computers/cell phones. As people learn to leverage the units the expectation with respect to applications will go up accordingly. Sure we have a small minority of people expecting to make use of third party apps right now, but that is always the way with early adopters. As third party programs improve I would expect that more and more people would become interested in them. That is if they could be easily loaded onto their iPhones.

The only way for there to be zero interest in iPhone apps is if Apple was totally successful in convincing people that they don't exists or aren't possible. Problem is the cat is out of the bag so to speak.

Dave

Zero interest is not the case, that's clear, but significant interest - in terms of market - is not the case either IMO.

They most certainly are, it is what this discussion is all about. One of those added negative features is the limiting of the owners ability to load soft.

We seem to be going around and around about this. The only entity that is damaging the machine is Apple. So me where any of he recently created apps for the iPhone have damaged anything.

Well that is very good for them. The reality is that they have put extremely tight control on what can be loaded on to the machine. It is not a question of MIGHT, it is very obvious that they have strived to employ any and every method at their disposal to keep people from loading software.

Like it or not a lot of people have not engaged in those contracts. They see the iPhone as personal property that they purchased.

I never once said anything like that. You continue to worm around the reality that they have taken a device with a specific set of behaviors and eliminated some of those behaviors through this software update. They directly attacked a usage that not more than a few weeks ago they said they did not have a problem with.

Then apparently Jobs does know what he is marketing. Phones cost $19. By any reasonable measure this iPhone plays against a different set of devices known as smart phones. Smart phones = computers. If the device can't be managed and used like a computer then why bother with a smart phone at all.

I don't even care about unlocking to change carriers. It is the iPhones previous ability to run apps that is important to me.

Mad??? - that is a mental state I haven't been in lately. What I am is pissed off. I'm pissed off because Apple had a product that was shaping up into something that I thought could be very useful to me. It would have certainly been a better investment than a laptop computer for example. Now Apple has a device that is barely more useful than a $19 cell phone.

Well this I take exception to. Remember I'm the customer or potential customer here. It is my responsibility to raise issues when I don't like a product or the direction it is taking.

Say you take your car into the shop and they re flash the engine management computer so you can't go faster that 50 MPH. Do you roll over and take it in the rear or do you raise hell about it? Remember you paid for a car that could go highway speeds.

I understand this but I hardly consider loading software onto a smart phone to be modding the unit.

Is it the norm in your area to do business with people that you can only expect the worst from?

Dave

I can see that you have your feelings. That's fine.

At this point, we're not going to agree on this. My suggestion is that we let it go.

Who did the good man try to insult??? Your way out of the ball park here.

Quote:

mrmister

It's easy to shoot down people,...

I consider this to be an insult, when I've said nothing to him. He's trying to put HIS motives into my writing. I've not had any interest to "shoot people down" as he claims.
We are all having a good agument about Apple's motives. If I disagree with people about this as you see others have, and I think their arguments are wrong, I will say so. If that "shoots down" their arguments, then that's what it's intended to do, just as you are trying to do to mine. Agreed?

Melgross, that's a straw man and you know it--I'm sorry you're insulted at the construction, but given the language used in the thread so far I think you have thicker skin than that. I would be interested if you could get over being insulted and address any of the rest of my post:

"It's easy to shoot down people, but nothing changes that Apple's made a shitty decision that makes their product less interesting and less compelling. It's a sad state of affairs for a company who used to implore people to think different. Apple apologists will find ten ways to explain how it is actually great that the iPhone has less potential today, but we all know that if MSFT did exactly this, folks would ream them mercilessly. Without a doubt it is Jobs least popular move in years, and in time will be seen as the beginning of the end of Apple's dominance of cutting-edge cool. It's a sad day."

Melgross, that's a straw man and you know it--I'm sorry you're insulted at the construction, but given the language used in the thread so far I think you have thicker skin than that. I would be interested if you could get over being insulted and address any of the rest of my post:

"It's easy to shoot down people, but nothing changes that Apple's made a shitty decision that makes their product less interesting and less compelling. It's a sad state of affairs for a company who used to implore people to think different. Apple apologists will find ten ways to explain how it is actually great that the iPhone has less potential today, but we all know that if MSFT did exactly this, folks would ream them mercilessly. Without a doubt it is Jobs least popular move in years, and in time will be seen as the beginning of the end of Apple's dominance of cutting-edge cool. It's a sad day."

I don't mind being insulted, but it has to be for a good reason. This came out of the blue.

I'm surprised that with your number of posts, indicating that you're here more than a bit, that you don't already know my position.

I'll restate it.

I think that Apple is wrong for not having their own, and therefore high quality, and well documented, SDK out there already. I still think that they will. It's one of the reasons why I've not bought an iPhone yet. If a product doesn't do what I want, or need, no matter how compelling otherwise, I won't buy it.

I'm also used to, and think it's far superior to have, 3G in a phone. I won't buy this because of that either.

As far as unlocking is concerned. I have no sympathy for those who use harebrained schemes to unlock theirs, knowing full well that it goes against their contract, and could be the reason their phone gets bricked. The "developers " who have come out with these products are the ones who should be responsible for these bricked phones. If I were to buy the phone so I could unlock it, you can be sure that I would first be certain that any software that does so, can insure that the phone would be usable if something should happen after an official upgrade.

It is that responsibility that these writers ignored when releasing their software. It boggles my mind to think that neither they, nor the ones using that software, thought to include, or require, a method to re-lock the phone before installing an Apple upgrade! If they had done that, rather than rushing their software out, and trying to get the glory of being first, then people wouldn't be in the trouble they are in now.

Those are the people who should be blamed.

I would like to see Apple allowing the third party SDK, installers, and programs continue to work, but I know full well that they don't have the responsibility to do so. Do it at your own risk. When I mod products, and you'd be surprised at just how much I do that, and how deeply my mods go, I don't expect the manufacturer to warrantee, or even service them afterwards, nor should I.

You might remember that shortly after Jobs introduced the phone at Macworld, he said that third party software would likely be coming, but that it would have to go through Apple. None of us know exactly what that means, but we can assume that it doesn't mean what has come out.

He gave a warning, if people choose to ignore it, that's their problem.

It has nothing to do with we would want, but with what we accepted by buying the product.

If I don't like the restrictions being put on the use of a product, I don't buy it, unless I'm not concerned about the warrantee.

That's all interesting, and I agree with some of it. It doesn't really address the central thrust of my post: that it's a sad state of affairs for Apple, and that if MSFT had found itself in the same position we'd ream them mercilessly. I think Apple seriously f*cked this up--if they didn't want to get in this situation they should have locked up their phone, because it's obvious that everyone and their brother is going to be hacking in to change the SIM--it's a strong incentive when most of the world wants the phone to work in their country and it won't. The mixed messages aren't encouraging either, and to be frank I wouldn't wait forever for this SDK, because right now I suspect Apple is feeling punched in the nose by its own users, and supplying an SDK that allows filesystem access but somehow doesn't open the door for SIM unlocking sounds haaaaaaaaaaard, if not totally impossible.

I have sympathy for people's phones that get bricked, simply because I'm a sympathetic person, and I try to favor individual humans over multinational corporations. The real story isn't individuals who don't understand what it means to mod their equipment--it's Apple making moves that indicate that by getting in bed with other companies it is losing its connection to users, which makes me deeply sad.

The marketplace decides when a company is wrong, and I don't think Apple's decisions surrounding the iPhone have any indicators in the marketplace that they've made a mistake. On the contrary, they've done a wonderful thing with their iPod/iPhone product line.

Had they REALLY made a mistake, they'd be sitting on a million iPhones they couldn't sell and their stock would be tanking. I think it's safe to say they're ignoring the man whining behind the curtain.

That's all interesting, and I agree with some of it. It doesn't really address the central thrust of my post: that it's a sad state of affairs for Apple, and that if MSFT had found itself in the same position we'd ream them mercilessly. I think Apple seriously f*cked this up--if they didn't want to get in this situation they should have locked up their phone, because it's obvious that everyone and their brother is going to be hacking in to change the SIM--it's a strong incentive when most of the world wants the phone to work in their country and it won't. The mixed messages aren't encouraging either, and to be frank I wouldn't wait forever for this SDK, because right now I suspect Apple is feeling punched in the nose by its own users, and supplying an SDK that allows filesystem access but somehow doesn't open the door for SIM unlocking sounds haaaaaaaaaaard, if not totally impossible.

I have sympathy for people's phones that get bricked, simply because I'm a sympathetic person, and I try to favor individual humans over multinational corporations. The real story isn't individuals who don't understand what it means to mod their equipment--it's Apple making moves that indicate that by getting in bed with other companies it is losing its connection to users, which makes me deeply sad.

This article from today's Macworld, also is in agreement with what I'm saying, though he emphases different aspects to greater, or lesser, degrees.

Yeah, but that editor knowingly contradicts himself in that article ... it's an opinion piece and none too good of one, either.

Quote:

From a consumer’s perspective, this is awful, as it’s removing choice from the consumer—not everyone is going to want the same apps and the same look on their iPhone, yet that’s what Apple’s telling us we must have (“Enjoy your new iPhone. Everything you could ever want is right there, and we’re sure you’ll love the theme we’ve installed for you.”)

Of course, consumers still do have a choice, but that choice is to purchase a competing brand’s smart phone. Is that what Apple really wants us to do?

I think Apple's acted in good faith on the part of its customers even though it appears otherwise.

They have thrown iPhone users plenty of bones to keep as few people as possible from getting pissed off considering they still have obligations to AT&T (and soon other carriers), the RIAA and Apple stockholders. Let's consider what's happened:

First, Apple gave consumers an option for running "apps" on the phone through Safari. I'm guessing they did it this way because they'd spent so much time building the device in the first place that they couldn't even think about an SDK yet. Steve's hinted that he'd like to have third party apps on there sometime but also isn't allowed to do anything that messes with AT&T.

Second, Apple locked the phone down pretty good, but not quite well enough. This was probably a way for them to say to AT&T, "look, we've done our due diligence to make sure this thing works ONLY on your network," knowing full well that the hacker community would eventually find their own way in. Apple also had to make as much money as possible off of the iPhone to please shareholders, so they had to do as much as possible to ensure the revenue stream back from AT&T.

Third, Apple made good on the decision to drop the price of the iPhone by offering the $100 credit. Steve Jobs didn't owe customers a pile of camel crap, yet he extended an olive branch. To me it was like he was saying, "No, really, we do have your best interests at heart but I have obligations to fulfill."

Fourth, Apple said that they didn't have problems with third party applications for iPhone. I bet they secretly welcome this type of development so that they can internally find out how to make iPhone better. While they can't outright endorse it, they can allow it...and for good reason. Unfortunately it looks as though third party apps were an unfortunate byproduct of other things that needed to happen in 1.1.1.

Fifth, Apple came up with the next best way to do ringtones. I bet Steve would have loved to let people make them for free, but the RIAA was breathing down his neck and he needs to lose this battle to win the overall online music war. It's still much more preferable an option than ANY other ringtone service that is available out there.

Sixth, Steve Jobs hinted in Europe that the only reason Apple's fighting unlockers is because Apple's obligated to. I bet if you asked him point blank, off the record, buddy buddy, Steve Jobs would tell you that he'd rather the iPhone be available for any network. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen for 4 1/2 years.

Seventh, Apple didn't have to warn unlockers that the update would brick unlocked iPhones, but they did anyway. Lets face it, if Apple didn't shut down unauthorized phones then Apple would have shareholders, the RIAA and AT&T to answer to. Yikes! In an effort to make good with unlockers, though, Apple was nice enough to very strongly hint, "If you unlocked or hacked your iPhone, we're about to break it with this update so think twice."

I bet all this stuff with the iPhone is thoroughly stressing out Steve Jobs, and not because customers are fighting him. I think it's because he wants so badly to do what's best for the consumers but his hands and feet are tied by all these other influencing parties.

It looks to me like he's done everything he can do to throw Apple customers a bone whenever possible but the response back is always negative.

He brought out an awesome GSM device that's tied to a nationwide cell carrier. Customers complained.
He ensured that battery life wouldn't suffer while still allowing internet. Customers complained.
He priced the phone as high as customers would pay. Customers complained.
He dropped the price to make it more reasonable. Customers complained.
He offered $100 credits from the Apple store. Customers complained.
He found a way to offer inexpensive downloadable ringtones. Customers complained.
He warned hackers that their iPhones were going to break. Customers complained.

Throw Apple a bone. They've done the best they can under the circumstances.

It's been my dilemma as well. While the iPhone is advanced in a number of ways, it also lacks many things.

I'm staying with my Treo 700p until Apple (hopefully) presents us with what I want, and need. If not, the interface is nice, but useless for me.

I'm not interested in hacks to make it do those things. Even if the third party software situation was resolved, there aren't the programs available that I use, so what would be the point?

There are more sides to this than the wanting what Apple doesn't offer. Most people who buy the iPhone will stick to what was offered. Some will try to get around it.

Many of us will wait and see, while using something else that suffices.

Totally agree with you mel, however, I'm on the other side in that I bought the iPhone and it does way more than I 'need' so I'm really happy with it. Of course I don't even really 'need' a cell phone even though I do carry one most of the time. Occasionally, I forget and leave it at home. Once in awhile someone will say "where were you I tried to call you on your cell?". When I tell them I accedently left it at home they look at me as if I'm from outer space.

Amid the thrust and parry of the 1.1.1 debate, I have yet to see much feedback on the functionality of the iTunes WiFi music store. So I tried it over the weekend, and it works great! After a brief problem where it did not recognize my e-mail address -- I had to confirm my account details on my MBP before returning to the iPhone -- I downloaded an entire album in about a minute. Very impressive.

Totally agree with you mel, however, I'm on the other side in that I bought the iPhone and it does way more than I 'need' so I'm really happy with it. Of course I don't even really 'need' a cell phone even though I do carry one most of the time. Occasionally, I forget and leave it at home. Once in awhile someone will say "where were you I tried to call you on your cell?". When I tell them I accedently left it at home they look at me as if I'm from outer space.

You're one of that large majority that finds the iPhone to be all, and even more, than you need. You're one of those for whom the iPhone was made for.

Amid the thrust and parry of the 1.1.1 debate, I have yet to see much feedback on the functionality of the iTunes WiFi music store. So I tried it over the weekend, and it works great! After a brief problem where it did not recognize my e-mail address -- I had to confirm my account details on my MBP before returning to the iPhone -- I downloaded an entire album in about a minute. Very impressive.

Any other user feedback (good or bad) on this feature?

I used it for browsing and listening to the most popular songs while hanging out at an airport that offered free Wi-Fi. I didn't purchase anything, but did discover that I've never even heard of the 90% of the most popular songs in any of the Top Ten categories. It worked great, but I felt old.

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"