There is a mass of information on Indian (aka Jyotish, Vedic, Hindu) astrology on the web. However, finding information on more traditional texts can be more difficult. Its often hard to know what is modern innovation and what is authentic traditional Indian astrology.

I recently stumbled on this site and it has an excellent collection of articles and downloads of Indian astrological classics. Registration is free.

I think it will be of interest to Skyscript members wanting to go into greater depth with their study of traditional Indian astrology.

There was a text at that site which helped to unravel part of a mystery on the order of the nakshatras, concerning the start of the order with krittika vs. ashwini. Now I just need to find out why the phalgunis were also listed as the start and end in the rg veda, atharva veda, gopatha brahmana, and kaushitaki brahmana.

And why there is a very different order in the taittiriya brahmana.

I was previously misled by a certain "California Vedic" astrologer, that this was because of precession. Now, I learned that there is a deeper esoteric reason for this, at least for the krittika "starting point."

Perhaps some of this was because of precession, but now I know that precession had nothing to do with the krittika discrepancy. The precession explanation didn't fully satisfy, since ashwini is still used as the starting point by contemporary jyotishis.

Also, I gained some important knowledge for my good, little, iconoclastic tendencies...it is a virtue to be an iconoclast in the Kali Yuga._________________Declining from the public ways, walk in unfrequented paths. - Pythagoras

I was previously misled by a certain "California Vedic" astrologer, that this was because of precession. Now, I learned that there is a deeper esoteric reason for this, at least for the krittika "starting point."

Hello Varuna,

Might this 'California Vedic' you refer to by any chance be David Frawley? Here is a very interesting article by him that cites several ancient Vedic texts to put the position you currently reject ie the original order of the Nakshatras related to the seasons. Frawley proposes that this dates back to the time when the Nakshatra ie Krttika (the Pleiades) would have heliacally risen around the time of the spring equinox c. 2500-2000 BCE. He suggests this had a clear religious significance too.

Vedic Nakshatra lists (Atharva Veda, Taittiriya Samhita, Taittiriya Brahmana, Satapatha Brahmana) make Krttika (Pleiades) the first of the Nakshatras. Satapatha Brahmana specifically relate it to the eastern direction. This yields clear astronomical data. Let us examine this position in a hymn of Atharva Veda, which mentions all the Nakshatras.

Easy to invoke, oh Agni, may the Krttikas and Rohini be, auspicious Mrigasira and peaceful Ardra. Graceful be Punarvasu, beautiful Pusya, bright Aslesa, with the solstice at Magha for me. Virtuous be Purva Phalguni and Uttara, Hasta and Citra peaceful and may Svati give me joy. Bounteous Visakha, easy to invoke, Anuradha, the best Nakshatra Jyesta, I invoke, and Mula. May Purva Asadha provide me nourishment and Divine Uttara Asadha give me strength. May Abhijit provide virtue, as Sravana and Sravista grant beauty. May Satabhisak give me greatness for expansion, and the two Prostapadas give protection. May Revati and Asvayujaur give me fortune and Bharani grant me wealth (AV XIX.7.2‑4).

The term 'ayana' specifically means solstice in later astronomical literature, so we cannot ignore such a meaning in its occurrence here. We find it in the northern and southern courses of the Sun as uttara-ayana and daksina-ayana. Moreover, we see Agni, the God of the east and the vernal equinox, leading the list of the Nakshatras, as Ashvini did in later times.

Taittiriya Brahmana states:

One should consecrate the (sacred) fire in the Krttikas;...the Krttikas are the mouth of the Nakshatras (T.B. i.1.2.1).

Here the Krttikas lead the list of the Nakshatras, not as a theoretical statement but as a practical timing for establishing the sacred fire. The same Brahmana also states:

The Nakshatras are the houses of the Gods...the Nakshatras of the Gods begin with the Krttikas and end with Visakha, whereas the Nakshatras of Yama begin with Anuradhas and end with the Apabharanis (TB i.5.2.7).

The Gods are identified with the constellations. They are divided into two halves, those that relate to the Gods or the powers of life, and those that relate to Yama, the God of death (Yama, we should note, is the ruler of Apabharani or Bharani and Agni of Krttika). This suggests a division of the zodiac by Agni as the point of the vernal equinox and the autumn equinox occurring between Visakha and Anuradha (03 20 Scorpio).

Satapatha Brahmana similarly states,

The Krttikas do not swerve from the eastern direction, all the other constellations do (S.B. II.1,2,3).

This shows a time when the Krttikas marked the vernal equinox, confirming this order. It provides us a number of references to a time in which the vernal equinox was in the Krttikas, along with the appropriate other Nakshatras.

Krttika marks early Taurus and Magha early Leo. The vernal equinox and summer solstice were in this area c. 2500-2000 BCE. Such data reflects the late Harappan era. This is the same as the late Sarasvati era, shortly before this river, which is prominent in the Vedas, ceased as a perennial stream, which occurred around 1900 BCE. Knowledge of the Upanakshatras would thus also be of the Harappan era, which is certainly a sophisticated enough urban culture, to produce such knowledge.

I would be very interested in what alternative explanation you uphold.

Mark_________________‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly

Last edited by Mark on Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

I didn't want to incriminate Frawley since I have learned various things through him, and it is not becoming of a student to attack one's teacher. I read a post on this forum wherein Martin Gansten referred to Frawley as a 'California Vedic astrologer,' and this amused me so I decided to refer to him this way.

The part about krittika not swerving from the eastern direction appears to be a reference to its position at a certain point in time, however, the directions also have a deeper esoteric significance in hindu tradition. The pitris (ancestors), rishis, and devas all have different 'directions' in which they reside, and various gods rule different directions, so this reference to a direction may indeed have a deeper occult significance.

There are many schools of thought in Hinduism just as there are in many other cultures. Bharata (India) has been invaded and colonized by just about everyone, sort of like the yoni of a courtesan. Some people refer to India as a 'she.' They say she (India) just absorbs the newcomers and survives the continuous onslaught of whoever. Some hindu ideas may have a hindu source, while some may not. Some people say that India is concerned with metaphorical truths and she is not concerned with historical truths and this has made it difficult to establish a true historical time-frame of Indian thought.

Therefore, Frawley's teachings on this matter are likely his own conjectures.

I have read from various sources that the contemporary hindu panchanga is actually a corruption and error, which was the result of the most recent occupation of Bharata by Judeo-Christian Britannia and the Jesuits. This was also in the text I mentioned in which I learned about krittika and the occult, religious order of the nakshatras.

The true Hindu panchanga has its new year on the 1st day of navaratri in September or so, but it is lunar based and so it changes dates in the solar year calendar. The esoteric and universal and religious and lunar based New Year is the beginning of the month of Aswayuja Masa.

The text I will cite appears to be an extremely obscure text, and there are numerous editorial errors and some words are spelled differently from many other places and some parts of it are missing, but if one has some prior knowledge it is still clear what the author meant. This text is "far out there," even for occult researchers, but this is also part of the attractiveness of it. The author is unwilling to grant any of his opponents premises and it will challenge a modern Westernized mind, which is also part of the attractiveness.

The text can be found in the Digital Library on the website posted at the beginning of this thread. It is in the Indian Astrology section on the second page of the Digital Library, and the title is: Gaayatri-jyotish.

I cannot copy and paste portions from the text since the text is in image form.

The author of the Gaayatri-jyotish text lists each nakshatra starting with Ashwini and the esoteric and ritual context of each nakshatra. He stated that the supreme being alone existed in the beginning and the end, and this is the nakshatra stage found in Aries, and then in krittika the 3 fold division of sattva, rajas, and tamas was initiated.

The author explains how the nakshatra order is related to the universe and to the human. He offers scriptural references from the upanishads and one of the yajur vedas and the viveka chudamani.

I think in order to understand jyotish one needs to understand the philosophical basis, and those texts which are mentioned are key to understanding the sacred science of jyotish vidya.

Bharani is the nakshatra prior to krittika and it is a nakshatra of death. It makes sense to have this nakshatra just prior to krittika. It is a nakshatra of endings, and in the individual sense it has the power to remove the soul and life from the body to the astral plane. On the universal level this would signify the end of the One, and then in krittika the birth of agni and the gunas...

These ideas are still very fresh in my own mind and they need time to incubate and further contemplation and study needs to be done.

After reading the Gaayatri-jyotish and comparing it with the shaktis of the nakshatras, I used that story and the teaching in comparison with the alleged natal charts of Ramakrishna, and Ramana Maharshi. It was interesting._________________Declining from the public ways, walk in unfrequented paths. - Pythagoras

It seems quite logic to consider that the lunar mansions started with the Pleiades around 2000-2500 BC. They were at the vernal equinox.

Moreover the rulerships of the nakshatras five to Krittika and Rohini, the Sun and Moon. Ashwini and Bharani get Ketu and Venus. Sun and Moon seem more logical (from a hierarchical classificational point of view) to use as starting rulerships. Just like the Sun and Moon are exalted in the first two signs Aries and Taurus.

The lunar zodiac is older than the sign zodiac. If I'm correct, the sign zodiac was introduded in India only in the first centuries AD. The already existing lunar zodiac (with unequally sized nakshatras) had to be integrated into the sign zodiac. Therefore a change to Ashwini as first nakshatra made it easier. Originally 28 in number 27 nakshatras were used (omitting Abhijit, Wega), to make it fit easier with the 360 degrees of the zodiac. A nakshatra (360/27) size of 13°20' is easier to calculate with than a (360/2 size of 12° 51' 25.7148". Just like the originally unequal sizes of the signs, the nakshatras were equalised. The 27 number version of equal nakshatras were called 'bhogas' of the Surya Siddhanta, http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/z/zodiac.html (scroll to the middle of the text).

I once calculated the most fitting positions for the boundaries using the mention of the junction stars in Hinckley Allan's - Star names, their lore and meaning. These junction stars were based upon the Surya Siddhanta and I found them to fit closest to a starting point at ca. 20°40' tropical Aries (for 2000AD). This is different from the Lahiri and many other ayanamshas, which are around 23°/24° tropical Aries. §2.7 of this: http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph.htm#_Toc283733503 explains that this may have a Greek/Hipparchean origin. It is close to the junction star Revati at ca. 19°-20°. Since this star is a weak star, it is hard to imagine that this would have a tradition in observation.

Another point is that the theory of 'trepidation' was adhered instead of precession. Believed to originate from Theon of Alexandria, trepidation believes that the equinoxes move not just westwards in a uniform motion as in precession but at a certain moment would turn eastwards. Here is an interesting about the use of trepidation theories in ancient Indian astronomy in which different theories were used to insert the effect in their arithmetical methods of calculations of planetary positions, rather than trigonometrical (Ptolomaeic) methods: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1972JHA.....3...27P
One of the values in theory is the 0°0'54" motion of trepidation and an oscillation between 27° east and 27° west of 0° sidereal Aries. At the beginning of Kali Yuga 3101 BC all planets were said to be conjoined in 0° Aries. With the 54" motion it will take 1800 years to move from 0° sidereal Aries to 27° sidereal Aries and another 1800° years back to 0° sidereal Aries. With a total time of 3600 years you get to around the year 500 AD and according to some theories it was believed that the vernal equinox would coincide with 0° sidereal Aries around 560-570 AD, see also the Astrodienst article I mentioned. This is close to the star Revati.

Furthermore 1800 years before 500 AD is ca. 1300 BC, and the outer most position of the vernal equinox, 27° sidereal Aries. This is close to the starting point of Krittika and the theory therefore reconciles the idea of Revati/Ashwini boundary as first nakshatra and the older use of Krittika in early scriptures. I'm not sure but I believe that the earliest believed sources of the Veda's dates from 1500-1000 BC but Martin is better informed on this. And I don't know the age of the texts in which the first use of Krittika (and the other nakshatras) was used.

Therefore one can also conclude that the year 3101 BC is not one of a real historical event but rather a date determined by a hindsight calculation of India's arithmetical method of planetary theory. The period numbers of yuga's kalpa's, in plurals of 4,320,000 therefore are not factual but only for calculations. Sometimes people have fantasies of civilisations of hundredthousands or millions of years ago and unfortunately this obscures an otherwise already fascinating subject.

It seems quite logic to consider that the lunar mansions started with the Pleiades around 2000-2500 BC. They were at the vernal equinox.

Therefore one can also conclude that the year 3101 BC is not one of a real historical event but rather a date determined by a hindsight calculation of India's arithmetical method of planetary theory. The period numbers of yuga's kalpa's, in plurals of 4,320,000 therefore are not factual but only for calculations. Sometimes people have fantasies of civilisations of hundredthousands or millions of years ago and unfortunately this obscures an otherwise already fascinating subject.

_________________Declining from the public ways, walk in unfrequented paths. - Pythagoras

One of the texts states: "The Krttikas do not swerve from the eastern direction, all the other constellations do" (S.B. II.1,2,3).

This means the nakshatras had already been mapped out before that was written. The krittikas have to move just as much as any other nakshatra and surely the author of that text knew this. Therefore, there is a religious and occult reason for this statement.

The directions were of the utmost importance for religious rituals, and they do not necessarily have anything to do with where a constellation was at a certain point in time.

Yes, our modern scholars will continue to deny the archaeological developments which are occurring in Bharata even to this day, however, even our modern scholars admit that the Indus River cities are older than 3,102 bc., and some of them date back to 10,000 years ago.

Also, the original Saraswati Riverbed has been discovered under the desert to the east of the Indus and archaeologists have found remnants of cities along this ancient riverbed and the original Saraswati River stopped flowing over 4000 years ago.

The original Saraswati River cities are older than the Indus River cities.

Then there is the discovery of a city in the vicinity of ancient Dwarka which was discovered off the coast of Bombay under the surface of the ocean.

These archaeological developments will not be accepted in the current scholarly circles in the West because of dogma, and the tentative dates applied are being given on the conservative end so as not to attract dogmatic scholarly ridicule. It is too soon to give exact information on these subjects since they are still under study.

If you accept the theories of Frawley and you investigate further into these theories, then you will find that Frawley uses the same, what you call logic, to demonstrate the dating of some texts to 6000bc using the phalgunis and what the scriptures state about them.

So, you will have to continue with your logic and admit that this tradition is even older than what you currently believe based on what you call logic.

I personally believe in the ancient teachings which make Frawley's conjectures look like modern history.

Who is more logical, me or you? What does logic even mean? I believe logic is a term that people throw around in a vain attempt to make their opponents look irrational.

Here is an example of impeccable logic:

Premise 1: The rabbit in the Moon exists.
Premise 2: The Moon is made of green cheese.
Premise 3: The rabbit in the Moon eats green cheese.
Conclusion: Therefore, the Moon gets eaten by the rabbit in the Moon.

This explains the waning, but some other premises will be necessary to create a story with impeccable logic pertaining to the waxing. Perhaps the rabbit's defecation is green cheese and this consuming and defecation process takes 28 days?

If you do not believe the rabbit in the Moon causes the waning, then you are irrational. Or could it be that you reject the premises perhaps?

Here is a story worth contemplating:

"Suppose you and I have an argument. Suppose you win and I lose. Does that mean you're really right and I'm wrong? Suppose I win and you lose. Does that mean I'm really right and you're wrong? Is one of us right and the other wrong? Are we both right and both wrong? If we can't figure it out ourselves, others must totally be in the dark, so who could we get to settle it?

We could get someone who agrees with you, but if they agree with you how could they decide who's right and wrong? We could get someone who agrees with me, but if they agree with me how could they decide?

We could get someone who disagrees with both of us, but if they disagree with both of us how could they decide? We could get someone who agrees with both of us, but if they agree with both of us how could they decide?

Not I nor you nor anyone else can know who is right and who is wrong. So what do we do? Wait for someone else to come along who can decide?

What is meant by an accord reaching to the very limits of heaven? I'd say: Right isn't merely right; so isn't merely so. If right is truly right, then not-right is so far from being right that there's no argument. When voices in transformation wait for each other to decide, it's like waiting for nothing.

An accord reaching to the very limits of heaven: because its endless, we live clear through all the years. Forget the years, forget Duty: move in the boundless, and the boundless becomes your home" (Chuang tzu: The Inner Chapters).

"I have no more words.

Let the soul speak with the silent articulation of a face" (Rumi)._________________Declining from the public ways, walk in unfrequented paths. - Pythagoras

It seems quite logic to consider that the lunar mansions started with the Pleiades around 2000-2500 BC. They were at the vernal equinox.

Therefore one can also conclude that the year 3101 BC is not one of a real historical event but rather a date determined by a hindsight calculation of India's arithmetical method of planetary theory. The period numbers of yuga's kalpa's, in plurals of 4,320,000 therefore are not factual but only for calculations. Sometimes people have fantasies of civilisations of hundredthousands or millions of years ago and unfortunately this obscures an otherwise already fascinating subject.

It would have been better to quote my entire post. Omitting the middle part erroneously gives others the impression that "Therefore" in the second alinea refers to the first alinea about the Pleiades.

varuna wrote:

One of the texts states: "The Krttikas do not swerve from the eastern direction, all the other constellations do" (S.B. II.1,2,3).

This seems a bit odd indeed, I have no idea what this can mean.

Quote:

Yes, our modern scholars will continue to deny the archaeological developments which are occurring in Bharata even to this day, however, even our modern scholars admit that the Indus River cities are older than 3,102 bc.

The cities can be much older than that age, and I don't deny that. I know about ancient civilisations of Harappa Mohenjo-daro, and the Sarasvati river that dried out, but I don't know enough about their age.

However it doesn't necessarily indicate that at the end of the 4th millenium BC this particular year itself was observed as particularly significant. The one doesn't need to exclude the other.

I always suspected that the dark spots on the Moon were rabbit droppings.

In the online library from the website listed in the first post of this thread, under the category of history of astrology, there is a compilation of articles by various authors titled:

Astronomical dating of events from Indian history

Some Indians are waking up from the bondage and slumber of centuries and they are beginning to openly contest the history which was placed on them by their overlords.

Mark posted a link to Frawley's work on this in another thread, and there is also an article by Frawley in the Astronomical dating of events from Indian history as well:

"Some scholars have claimed that the Babylonians invented the zodiac of 360 degrees around 700 BCE. Many claim that India received the knowledge of the zodiac from Babylonia or even later from Greece. However, as old as the Rig Veda, the oldest Vedic text, there are clear references to a chakra or wheel of 360 spokes placed in the sky... (RV I.140 – 164)" -Frawley

Here are some random quotes by various scholars from the Astronomical dating of events from Indian history

"Description of Event Dating
Sri Krishna, on his final peace mission, set out for Hastinapura, when the moon was at the asterism Revati. September 26, 3067 BCE
Krishna arrived in Hastinapura when the moon was at the asterism Bharani. September 28,3067
The lunar eclipse September 29, 3067 BCE
The solar eclipse at Jyestha October 14, 3067 B.C.
The Great Bharata War November 22, 3067 BCE
Balarama sits out the war and sets out for pilgrimage along the Sarasvati November 1, 3067 B.C.
Balarama returns from his pilgrimage, on the last day of the war Dec 12, 3067 BCE
The winter solstice occurred on January 13, 3066 BCE
Bhishma’s expiry January 16, 3066 BCE
Birth and nirvana of Sri Krishna (we have used 81 years as his lifespan but some traditions put his lifespan as 197 years) with a birthdate of July 21,3228 BCE 3112 BCE to 3031 BCE
The comet Mahaghora appeared at the asterism Pushya October ,3066 BCE
Birth and Nirvana of Lord Buddha April 9, 1887 to March 27,1807 BCEBirth and Nirvana of Adi Sankara April 5, 509 BCE
Beginning of the Vikrama Era (Sukla pratipada) March 14 , 57 BCE
Salivahana Saka 78 CE"

"Most countries in Central Asia, particularly those with their names ending with ‘stan’ or ‘istan’, such as – Balochistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Turkistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan – could be part of Greater India in ancient times. ‘Sthan/stan’ is a Sanskrit word, meaning ‘place’. When drawing a line around these istan countries, beginning at Kazakhstan, in the extreme northwest, and ending at Pakistan, they make a block connecting with India. These countries were snatched away one by one by Muslim tribes. Last being Pakistan."

“He who has money, lives long: he who has authority, can do no wrong: he who has might, establishes right. Such is history”. - Gottfried Benn.

"The present narration of [Indian] history especially in the English language is not accurate and is fundamentally flawed both chronologically and as to the nature of the content . There should be no question in anybody’s mind that the present narrative of our history as taught to our children is the legacy of the British . I would be astonished if anybody were
to contradict me on this assumption. This is therefore not an opinion but a fact.."

"The First Boden Professor of Sanskrit in Oxford University was H.H. Wilson. Then it was Monier Williams and he was followed by Max Müller. Personal letters of Mr Max Müller gives a true picture of the writer's inner mind. Such letters are very helpful in estimating his real nature and character. In a letter to his wife in 1886 A.D. Max Müller wrote:

This edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India ... It is the root of their religion and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last three thousand years."

In a letter on 16th December 1868 A.D he writes to Duke of Argyll, the Minister for India:

'The ancient religion of India is doomed and if Christianity does not step in, whose fault will it be?'

You can understand how biased was colonial scholarship of Sanskrit learning. Max Müller's bias is now an open secret. The strange factor is that Max Müller does not understand simple Sanskrit and he cannot write and translate. Then what about his Vedic knowledge?"

"Indian astronomy is claimed to be borrowed from the Greeks, but the Vedanga Jyotisha cannot be dated later than the 14th century BC. The name itself, Vedanga, indicates it is later than the Vedas, so the astronomical references in the Vedas must be older. In addition, Harappan archaeology of the third millennium BC belongs
astronomically to the ‘Krittika period’ (vernal equinox in Krittika or the Pleiades cluster in Taurus), which is mentioned in the later Vedic literature. This places the Harappan civilization later than the Rigveda and not before it as claimed by historians."

"Migrations: The major migration or invasion—the famous or infamous Aryan invasion—is supposed to have taken place after 2000 BC, but available genetic evidence shows that the people of India have lived where they are for tens of thousands of years, perhaps as long as 50,000 years or more."

"It is my firm conviction that the current history, as revised by the colonial overlord, and taught to our [Indian] children worldwide does not meet the minimum standards of any episteme. I do not know of any civilization or nation that lets its history be hijacked by those who have a minimum accountability to ensure its veracity and in fact has an agenda that is very cavalier and nonchalant, if not hostile to our traditional heritage. Till the advent of independence we had an excuse that we were held on a short leash by the colonial overlord, but what is the excuse today?"

Note: I personally know of many groups of people who have had their roots and history hijacked and destroyed. We could start looking right here at home - look at the European university programs which teach "European" religion and include Christianity.

Isn't the Aesir-Vanir war the same as the stories of the asura-deva wars?

Are not Arvak and Alsvin, the horses connected with the Sun in the Norse religion, the very same Ashvini twins connected with horses and the Sun in the Vedic tradition and which the Ashwini nakshatra is named after?

"These scholars have discounted the fact that two of the greatest epics of
the world, Ramayana and Mahabharata are traditionally regarded as itihasa s, i.e., historic texts and that there are in addition, a host of supporting texts in the form of Puranas. Ignoring the fact that Bharata has its own sense of history and the purpose of history, which differs
from their own concept of history, the scholars have systematically misrepresented the chronology of Bharata"

"Krshna’s mission for peace is so important that astronomical events in reference to that mission
are recorded.
(i) Krshna leaves for Hastinapura in the maitri muhurta in the month of Kartika on the day of Revati nakshatra.
(ii) On the way he halts at a place called Vrkasthala and reaches Hastinapura on the day of Bharani nakshatra
(iii) The meetings and discussions for peace go on till the day of Pushya nakshatra, when Duryodhana rejects all offers of peace. War becomes imminent.
(iv) Krshna leaves Hastinapura on the day of Uttara Phalguni. Karna
accompanies him in his chariot and has a long conversation with him.
(v) During the conversation Karna describes some omens he has seen that indicate a great harm to the Kuru family which include the following: shani is afflicting Rohini, angaraka has performed a retrograde motion before reaching Jyeshtha and is prograde again having past Anuradha, the moon had lost all its luster on the full moon of Kartika and a solar eclipse would appear to take place next new moon day.
(vi) At the end of the conversation, Krshna sends a message to Bhishma and Drona through Karna that seven days from that day there is going to be an Amavasya at Jyeshtha and that war rituals be started on that day. This must be the Amavasya that Karna refers to as the eclipse day."

"Even Bhagavata Purana acknowledges that although Kaliyuga had already started, because of the presence of Krshna, Kali’s effect had been
controlled. The full power of Kali became effective only with the departure of Krshna...
Thus there is no conflict with the war occurring in 3067 BCE and the
reckoning of Kaliyuga from 3102 BCE."

"One consequence of the mix up of the names of Ashokaditya of the Guptas with Ashoka of the Mauryas is the misdating of Buddha. According to Puranic evidence, there had expired 1500 years after Pariksit, when Mahapadmananda was coronated. Between Pariksit and the Nandas, there were three royal dynasties, Brhadratha, Pradyota and Sisunaga families. The Nandas who ruled Magadha for 100 years, were followed by Mauryas, Sunga, Kanva and Andhras. Candragupta founded the Mauryan dynasty with the help of Canakya. His son was Bimbisara and grandson was Ashokavardhana. The Maurya- s ruled for a total of 316 years and
were replaced by the sunga-s. The Kanva-s who succeeded the Sunga-s were themselves supplanted by the Andhra-s, who ruled for a total of 506 years. Then followed the reign of srigupta-s for a period of 245 years. This age has been termed the ‘Golden Age’ in the history of
Bharata. It is Samudragupta of the srigupta dynasty who was known as “Ashokaditya Priyadarsin” The “Inscriptions of Ashoka” belong to this Gupta emperor and not to Ashoka Maurya , who came to power after 218 years after Buddha.
Buddha was the son of King Suddhodana who was the 23rd king of the Ikshvaku dynasty and Puranic-records point to 1807 BCE as the date of attaining nirvana by Buddha. Just as in the case of Krshna, it appears that his date of birth is calculated after determining the date of parinirvana (final departure). Buddha’s nirvana Kota Venkatachelam has determined that Buddha’s nirvana occurred on the vaishakha Purnima, on March 27, 1807 BCE. Simulations show that astronomically this is indeed the situation as shown in Figure 16. Many other scholars also agree as to the date of Buddha’s nirvana."

"According to it shankara was born in the year Nandana of Kaliyuga
2593 (509 BCE) in the month of vishakha...The Figure 21 shows a star map for April 5, 509 BCE and it is easily seen that tithi, lagna, nakshatra and the positions of the planets are exactly as described in the horoscope."

"The Western historians have tried to identify Kanishka era with 78 CE in their attempt to deny historicity of the... but based on the list from Rajataraangini, Kanishka’s date would be 1298 BCE."

The details of the arguments for these assertions can be found in the above-mentioned text.

Max Müller apparently had other people help him translate Sanskrit texts, and he was actually a hired agent for the British East India Company, to help subjugate the Indian, just as the Europeans were subjugated some centuries or a millenium prior._________________Declining from the public ways, walk in unfrequented paths. - Pythagoras

No, I was not aware of Dieter Koch and his work. Thank you for informing me of such. The authors I quoted in the previous post, give extensive details on how they arrive at their dating of events including the eclipses, and the calculations they used are not something I have verified - nor could I, at my present level of knowledge.

If someone here disagrees that those eclipses could have happened on those dates, please speak up.

I agree with some of the points in the Koch article; I also disagree with some of the points; and I am neutral on other points - simply due to a lack of knowledge on my part, to decide either way.

I would encourage Koch to study those articles which are at the Indian astrology website, not just the books I quoted, but other ones as well.

I am aware of the huge problem of the ayanamsha, but at my current level of studies I have not yet decided which one is correct, or if different ones are correct at different time periods - due to a possible irregular rate of change of the precession of the equinoxes. The srimad bhagavatam has a very different ayanamsha calculation as well. I am aware of around 20 different ayanamshas, but I do not yet have the knowledge of how they were decided. I would also love to find the truth on the ayanamsha because without the correct one, much of the divisional chart information will be wrong. I am not qualified to say anything about the ayanamsha as of now.

The sama veda and the rg veda are not man-made, they are of the Cosmos/God; numerous other later texts in hindu tradition are made by humans, therefore not all of the texts are infallible.

There are different paths for different temperaments. Koch needs to understand this. I am not raised a hindu, but I am sure the two vedas mentioned, are infallible, and not of human origin. There are reasons why some of us believe the vedas cannot be questioned, and I am not willing to explain to the uninitiated and in public, on why this is so. It simply is so, and it is a fact to some of us.

However, other texts can be questioned, and this includes astrology texts. Koch in his criticisms, and his opponents as well, need to understand the difference between bhakti yoga and jnana yoga. Here are some excerpts from a jnana yoga scripture:

"The remark of a child is to be accepted, if it is in accordance with reason; but the remark of even Brahma, the creator of the world, is to be rejected like a piece of straw if it does not accord with reason...

The wrong notion that this world is real has become deep rooted on account of persistent wrong thinking. However, it can be removed that very day on which you resort to the company of holy men and to the study of the holy scripture. Of all scriptures this Maharamayana is best. What is found here is found elsewhere; what is not found here is not found anywhere else. However, if one does not wish to study this one is welcome to study any other scripture - there is no objection to this." - Maharamayana

Here is an excerpt from a bhakti yoga scripture:

"In the dream state a man sees many beings within himself, and in the waking state he sees himself as a single individual (he himself being the substratum for both these). Similarily, a man should regard all the beings in the universe and himself as identical with me. I am the consciousness that is the unity in diversity; when one forgets me he is entangled in diversity and worldly activity. Such activity is the cause of sorrow, whereas non-volitional activity is wisdom. Such wisdom gives birth to devotion to me. Cultivate this wisdom and you will soon attain perfection." - Srimad Bhagavatam

Now we can see the difference between jnana and bhakti yoga. Christianity and Islam are both bhakti yoga, for example. Any scripture which endorses complete surrender to fill-in-the-blank, is a bhakti yoga path, and it suits some temperaments. Other people are suited to the jnana yoga path e.g. buddhists. This is a short explanation, but it would take pages and volumes to go into all of this.

Some people follow both bhakti and jnana yoga, in different ways.

Dieter Koch needs to revise his article to eradicate it of false statements concerning the origins and dates of jyotish.

"Some scholars have claimed that the Babylonians invented the zodiac of 360 degrees around 700 BCE. Many claim that India received the knowledge of the zodiac from Babylonia or even later from Greece. However, as old as the Rig Veda, the oldest Vedic text, there are clear references to a chakra or wheel of 360 spokes placed in the sky." - Frawley

The term 'yavana' does not refer to Greeks, and it would be nice if our scholars would eventually acknowledge this fact.

"Indian astronomy is claimed to be borrowed from the Greeks, but the Vedanga Jyotisha cannot be dated later than the 14th century BC" - Astronomical dating of events in Indian history

I personally believe the 360 divided by twelve idea is far older than what our scholars believe.

There exist vedic deities and stories with parallels in Norse religion, when the scholars know how long ago these people split, then they will have an idea of how much older these things are then what they currently think. A time frame could be established when genetics is better understood, because then it could be found when the split happened. Then, astrology would have to be assumed to be dated earlier than the time of the Aryan/Indo-European tribal split.

The Sumerian and Egyptian currently espoused chronology is also wrong. These cultures used astrology long before is currently accepted. If you study the original lineages of Sumerian, Egyptian, and Vedic history, you will find that they are identical. I know that the European history was identical as well because of other similarities in ancient cultural teachings, but their roots were destroyed too long ago to look at any lineage listing.

Therefore, a European who studies the vedic tradition including the nakshatras, will be regaining their lost roots from the invasion and subjugation by Judeo-Christianity.

Did you know that people in the ancient Gilgamesh story had blue and green eyes? Did you know that Shiva had blond hair? The ancestors of these ancient traditions spent a long time in the lower latitudes and so their physical characteristics have changed since those days, many thousands of years ago. The hindus are cousins of the European tribes.

There are shadow forces in our midst who have destroyed the European roots and gotten Europeans to worship another group of people, in order to practice mind-control on them and to subjugate them. They have made it a thought-crime to be proud of European heritage and ancestry, while they continuously assert their own. The Aryan invasion myth is a myth because the hindus and Europeans are both originally from the same group of people.

If you are embarrassed and offended by these words, it is because of the thought-control program inserted into your mind. We can sit here and be offended by each other, or we can acknowledge that it is not a crime to have different ideas and beliefs and values. Although there are some who would like to make the previous few paragraphs a crime.

I believe astrology is a remnant of a science from a higher civilization from a previous world age, and so the argument about whether the hindus gained their knowledge from the greeks, is completely irrelevant and does not address the actual history.

The bias of Koch shines through his article like a spotlight, therefore I will be suspicious of his, otherwise well-researched article.

This is not about tropical vs sidereal to me, this is about finding the truth of the matter. Koch started his research with the assumption that the sidereal is wrong, end of question, and then he went about attempting to prove it. If Koch is right, then Australians are some mixed up people, i.e. Cancer Suns who are really Capricorn Suns etc.

I agree the rituals were done according to the seasons, however, this does not also imply that the nakshatras were based on the seasons. I know the modern hindu panchanga is wrong...

The panchanga, the rituals, and the nakshatras are not necessarily all equal and the same thing here. We are discussing different cycles imposed on one another, sort of like the Mayan calendars. We are discussing lunar cycles, lunar star-based nakshatras, solar cycles, and solar star-based mansions vs. solar cycle mansions.

From all appearances, I am not the only one stumbling along in the dark, trying to sort out this mess._________________Declining from the public ways, walk in unfrequented paths. - Pythagoras

Dieter Koch is actually behaving in the same manner as Max Müller, they both studied Hindu thought, not because they were interested in it, but because they both wanted to uproot it, this renders both of their opinions on the matter, suspect from the beginning.

Koch: "But in Vedic texts, lists of the lunar mansions always start with Kṛttikā" This is an untruth or error, some of them start and end with the phalgunis.

Koch: "Indian astrology, as we know it today, is mainly used for clarification of worldly matters, aiming at earthly happiness." This is of course true to the vast majority of the population, but that is because of certain laws, where the majority of humans will be trapped in delusion and not ever care to contemplate higher things and seek liberation. For example:

"[The planets] are merely channels through which past karmic forces fructify...They provide opportunities for self-evolution provided they are taken in the right manner...

The scriptures [such as the viveka chudamani] have already described that various sheaths [auras] that account for the astromental as well as physical well being of the person cover the inner man or the essential core of the individual. His capacity to absorb the finer forces impinging upon the inner man and to react to them depends upon the nature and composition of these sheaths...planetary forces always affect these sheaths and induce the individual to evolve and to unveil his latent faculties. These forces are ever harmonized with the past karmic forces already generated by him. The planetary deities have arranged them in a specific order...If these forces could be intelligently understood, the individual could utilize them to accelerate his inner development. Planetary periodicity is in this way purposive...Knowledge of this sequence and the comprehension of one's archetypal goal gives the person strength and foresight to proceed confidently and to bear cheerfully the difficulties of the path." - Behari

Also:

"A genuine yogi sits and meditates not for fifteen minutes or half an hour but for years on end. He disciplines himself to endure all the physical discomforts caused by weather, and even when approached by a tiger or other dangerous animal, he remains fearless. Finally he raises himself (the soul) to the top of his skull and leaves the body at an astrologically auspicious moment" - Swami Prabhupada

Koch: "After the 'Laws of Manu,' people who earn their living through astrology are not allowed to attend Vedic rituals. Bhīṣma, the great hero of the Mahābhārata epic also counts astrologers among the 'most depraved of the Brahmins'. Not only does he consider it shameful 'to earn one’s living from the stars' but even more generally the predicting of astrological dates or the performing of 'star sacrifices.'"
This is misleading, probably unintentionally by Koch, because the issue here isn't astrology, the issue is a brahmin (priest) becoming a vaishya (merchant). A Brahmin's karman was to perform sacrifices and other religious rituals, but in the source Koch cited, it lists even performing religious rituals (for money) as against the karman of a Brahmin. This is absolutely absurd, since it was a Brahmin position in society to do so. A Brahmin was always supposed to only earn their living through charity from the king and/or the other members of society. These rules were to prevent Brahmins from chasing wealth and thereby destroying the priesthood and themselves.

The truth is that only Brahmins were allowed to study astrology, and there was good reason for this.

Also, there is a difference between dwija (twice-born) on the symbolic/societal level and dwija in the true meaning of it. Dwija in the true meaning is an enlightened being.

Koch: "The spiritual claim of 'Vedic' astrology also deserves a note. From the point of view of Vedānta, i.e. of spiritual liberation (mokṣaḥ), astrology is completely irrelevant. Kṛṣṇa never says in the Bhagavadgītā that astrology be required to attain to spiritual liberation." Koch is deliberately attacking those seekers who also practice astrology due to their immaturity level on the path. But on the other hand, astrologers who talk about spirituality should walk their talk and talk less.

Koch: "Whoever dares to critically question Hindu astrology enters an ideological minefield. Many Hindu scholars see approaches of Western science to their culture, history and sacred texts as assaults upon their spiritual tradition and their national pride. Unfortunately, some of them are not willing or able to discuss the matters in a sober and objective way but respond with aggression, tell their opponents that they have no competence at all, ridicule them, or accuse them of telling lies or wanting to destroy Hindu culture. Others avoid a real discussion, saying, e.g.: 'The texts of the Vedas have been written in such a way that the non-initiated should not be able to interpret it'. At least, these were the words that a Hindu scholar used when I just wanted a rational discussion on problematic passages in the Vedic writings. Western followers of Eastern teachings unfortunately often take over such patterns of behaviour."
This argument is again misleading, that person who told Koch that the non-initiated should not be able to interpret it, was referring specifically to the vedas. There is a damn good reason why curiosity-seekers and maligners and others should never understand the vedas. These type of people should not even be able to study astrology, but now everyone has access to it.

"In accordance with the prarabdha [karma] of each, the One whose function it is to ordain makes each to act. What will not happen will never happen, whatever effort one may put forth. And what will happen will not fail to happen, however much one may seek to prevent it. This is certain. The part of wisdom therefore is to stay quiet." - Ramana Maharshi

Jyotish is the study of this karma.

Koch cannot be a seeker or student of the religious teachings of India, based on this article. I dare say he does not know more about this matter than I do. The gurus never gave every person the same advice. There were different teachings for householders as opposed to sannyasins. And individuals each received a different teaching from the guru. Every person is unique and every person needs different teachings, the gurus knew this and they knew how to identify what a person needed, because they were gurus. Therefore, Koch's attempt to place the entire religious teachings of the various sects in India into one box, just does not fit.

Koch: "The Indians themselves do not call their astrology 'Vedic', or have not done so until recently. The traditional expression is simply jyotiṣam, i.e. the '(science) of the lights.' The term 'Vedic astrology' appeared only in recent decades, with the aforementioned boom of Hindu astrology in the West. Evil tongues say that the term was invented only because 'Vedic' – i.e. spiritual – astrology sells better. In the West, it was made very popular by well-known American astrologers, e.g. David Frawley. It enjoys in­creasing popularity even among Indian astrologers."
This is true and it is good of Koch to point this out, for those who are true seekers:
"A man's desire for a woman is innocence itself compared to the lusting for an everlasting personal bliss. The mind is a cheat. The more pious it seems, the worse the betrayal." - Sri Nisargadatta Maharaja

Koch is also right about this: jyotish is not necessary for true seekers, and it is a distraction.

Koch should know that jyotish is also called "the eye of the vedas."

There are going to be numerous contradictions in something as large as hinduism, or even something as large as a human being. This is where right discrimination comes in..._________________Declining from the public ways, walk in unfrequented paths. - Pythagoras

I have problems with your statement, "the vedas come directly from God".
This is the end of every discussion, of human thought and science. We have to believe. Thus, myth is winning the victory over rationality.
It reminds me of the Christian fundamentalists, saying the Bible is not man-made but a revelation, God himself speaking - a justification for all kind of (a)morals.
Like Kepler - who said, "God is the most supreme geometer" - I think we should use our brains in order better to understand god's creation.

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