Bear: SotF?

I was comparing numbers in game and with Rawr and noticed things did not quite line up. I always start a session with loading the character from the armory so ensure I don't miss anything. So after noticing that I went to make sure that Survival
of the Fittest and Thick Hide is accounted for and I don't see any way to check that (as in other models where you can move talents around). I think these talents are pretty basic for a Feral tank, and could safely be assumed, but then again the numbers
don't line up pointing to that as an issue. Am I way off base?

SotF is just 3% to stats, so it must be something else that is missing (you lack too much strength).
Make sure you used the same buffs, then post the xml file. (314 strength + imp.MotW+ blessing of kings is damn close to 368 strength)

Pretty sure I did not have BoK, and that was not the only stat. For instance I notice my def was about .2% off (lower) in Rawr. I'll log on here in a little bit and post more detailed information. I wouldn't think there was an error in
something as simple at this point in development, however if I'm making this mistake there's a fair chance someone else is.

I think the difference is I have 3/5 MotW. I do not however see any way to configure talents within the Bear model unless I'm just dense. There's also a pretty significant difference in the Resilience that I'm missing somewhere. :-)

It seems like the arena 2-piece bonus needs to be updated to allow for the brutal pieces :)

I saw the same problem with my strength differing between game/armory and rawr using my own (tauren) profile. Same difference for both cat and bear (says 419 STR, should be 443). I just pressed reload current character from armory and that solved it.

Looks like at least you're using different versions of Mark of the Wild; use none to compare since you have an odd talent build.

If you refresh item data on the brutal pieces, I believe it'll catch that they're part of the gladiator set.
Most importantly though, don't compare to the armory; the armory has had a bug for a long long time that it applies the benefits of bear form twice. So you need to compare to in-game.

Also remember that some procs/uses are averaged out in Rawr, so you'll see a portion of their stats on your character in Rawr, but not in game, so take that into consideration.

>> Looks like at least you're using different versions of Mark of the Wild; use none to compare since you have an odd talent build.

Yeah I can do that. Looking at most of the other models though there's a method to use different builds ... just curious why that's not here for bears? 3/5 MotW is not all that uncommon of a raid build (at least in my neck of the woods) and there
are sometimes where my MotW is the only one available, like a 5-man for instance.

>> If you refresh item data on the brutal pieces, I believe it'll catch that they're part of the gladiator set.

That was the issue there, thanks. Is there any way to do that without a character refresh? I'm envisioning a "theorycrafting session" where playing with different gear might not display the benefits of certain combinations.

Heh, sorry, but no, 3/5 MotW is a terrible build for any feral, there's simply no good reason to do that. Rawr.Bear (and Cat) assume a standard feral spec, since everything that matters is so cookie-cutter.

And I'm not sure what you mean about the refreshing of item data. You didn't need to refresh your character, just those items. Right click on an item and choose Refresh Item Data. Or you can use Tools > Update Item Cache to do that for all items at once.

1. How many points do you have in Naturalist?
2. How many points do you have in Predatory Instincts?
3. If you powershift, do you have Natural Shapeshifter (assuming that power-shifting + OOM is being considered)?
4. Do you have Omen of Clarity?
5. Do you have points invested in Nurturing Instinct? (a strict tank build has no use for them)

These are a few things that may differentiate "standard" feral builds.

1) 5. Duh. No question.
2) 5. Duh. No question.
3) Personally, 3. That's one of the possible choices for the 8 left over points. Going OOM is not considered by either model.
4) Yes. Duh. No question.
5) Personally, no. That's one of the possible choices for the 8 left over points.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxhGsfboezioVx0z is the standard feral cookie cutter spec. There's no discussion about those, because it's terrible not to have exactly that. That leaves you with 8 left over points, which there are a few viable choices for:
A) Nature's Grasp: Primarily of PvP use, but for 1 point, it's a decently good value.
B) Brutal Impact: Primarily of PvP use, but also for soloing, and not bad for 2 points.
C) Savage Fury: Almost part of the cookie cutter spec, but it's really weak for 2 points, and cat-only, so occasionally is skipped in a Bear-centric build. Rawr.Cat *does* assume it though.
D) Nurturing Instinct: Mostly useful in PvP, but still can be useful in PvE while DPSing and taking AoE damage. Generally weak, but an option.
E) Primal Tenacity: Primarily of PvP value, and pretty weak at that.
F) Natural Shapeshifter: A very strong choice for PvP and PvE DPS, and even PvE tanking in some situations.
G) Intensity: A good choice for 5/10man tanking, and also for PvE DPS.

Since neither Bear or Cat models consider going OOM, none of those have any tanking or DPSing value, other than Savage Fury which is assumed for Cat.
Bottom line is that there is a standard cookie cutter feral spec, plus 8 left over points which don't really matter.

All that said, we will be adding full, standardized, Rawr-wide support for talents of all classes in a later version.

I remember going through so much withdrawal that I had to respec again. The thing procs like there's no tomorrow, it always has (I've been using it since pretty low levels), and getting an extra special attack is, well, extra special :) I swear,
it's like crack to me.

Now to get back on topic a bit...

On top of getting support for talents in the next major Rawr upgrade, we should consider also drop-downs for some of the improved/non-improved checkboxes for buffs.

My rationale is that if your raid healer is a tree with 3/5 improved MoTW, it doesn't matter that you have 0/5 improved MoTW in your talent tree, it's that you expect to be buffed by a 3/5 improved MoTW buff.

I think it starts mattering when we automate things (e.g. load from armory or character profiler), we shouldn't
necessarily assume that the person doing the buffing is theperson being buffed, so we shouldn't tie the two together.

Let me start off by saying I agree with you. Now, to throw some of your own words back at you:

Rawr has been designed from the start to be fun to use, and helpful in finding better combinations of gear, and what gear to find.

Remember, "fun to use." Theory crafting aside, WoW is a game, and some people have "fun" in different ways. Some people have fun playing unconventionally, and I can't blame them. In all honesty, when you start looking at
cookie cutter specs, cookie cutter gear lists, and cookie cutter attack rotations, you may as well let the "elitists jerks" play for you while they're at it. Basically what it boils down to (for me) is pressing "3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5"
while in cat form, and rinse and repeat for 3 hours per raid. I suppose I run from one room to the next as we clear things and hit tab to pick a target, but much of my combat time is spent doing that (and if I'm fortunate enough to have a druid tank,
I remove '3' from my rotation and it becomes even more exciting).

So unless there's a really good reason to restrict people, why do it? Let them play around, figure out what's best for them, let them be different (I mean, with the amount of resilience I pack from my 2 pieces of pvp gear, I don't need all 3
points in crit reduction even though I have them. Let's not even talk about how some people diss me, pointing out that even using two pieces of PvP is not cookie cutter... They're full of crap, but that's a whole different topic).

I have had lots of "fun" playing with Rawr and trying to build extremely achievable -- and extremely unachievable -- gear sets just to see what's what. If it could also help me screw around with my builds, I'd love that too. In fact, I'm
really, really yearning for that this very minute. Lately I've been itching to try to play more arenas, and, being the masochist I am, would like to give feral a proper shot before throwing in the towel and going resto. Now having 5 points
in Nature's Grasp is actually really nice, as is the thought of 15% of fear resist (I'd rather it was 50% or 100% tbh). But those 1, 5, or 8 points are really hard to come by and I wonder how they'd affect my DPS. Each point i take out of naturalist
means 2% less damage and that may stack with other effects. Rawr could tell me what that really means at the end of the day, and if I really can find my dream spec. or if I'll have to respec 2 or 4 times a week to allow for raids.

I know these things are planned for Rawr. Let's not forget to plan for fun too -- and let people discover for themselves, using Rawr, whether they are "doing it wrong" or not, and whether that's a sacrifice they're willing to take considering
the side-effects.

Anyway, sorry to vent so much, but luckily it's actually not entirely off-topic for this thread since the issue at hand is someone with an unconventional build. I've just experienced and witnessed people who tell others how the game "must" be
played, to the point that some people were driven away from the game entirely.

I completely understand and agree, but there is a really good reason to restrict people to the standard spec. The fact is that we need to prioritize things; we can't do everything instantly. I'd much rather build features and fix bugs
for the people who are doing it right, than build features to help people play in a sub-par way. That's why customizable talent builds for ferals are *planned*, not *implemented* currently. We'll get there, but I have to prioritize other features first.

(And you can say 3/5 MotW is just doing it 'unconventionally', but that's really not what it is. I'm not saying you need to respec, I'm just saying you're making an active choice to do worse than you potentially could, very easily. If that's what floats your
boat, go for it, really, it's your $15/mo and you have every right to play how you want to. Rawr, however, is for people who want to maximize their performance. Sorry if I sound like a jerk, but 3/5 iMotW is a pretty blatant mistake, and one that's very easily
fixable.)

I don't think this is the right place for theorycrafting, but perhaps some situational explanations are in order. I raid with my Feral build, but I don't
always raid. There are points that I wanted to use elsewhere. When I raid I have 5/5 GotW applied because that's what our raid healers have. When I am solo I have 3/5 MotW because it's better than 0 and I used the two points elsewhere.
It's not wrong, it might be considered "sub-optimal" in a specific case, but in a broad sense where I go from swiping three targets as a bear doing dailies, switching back to cat for the last one, popping up and healing myself or laying a HoT on
myself before starting a fight, it works very well. Right after that I run amd do some BG's if the fancy takes me (where I really do miss Nature's Grasp) and then I might even (gasp!) do some arena ... that's right, arena as FERAL. I have tanked and
DPS'd into MH and BT and the only time people ever have any comments about my gear or spec is when they view me on the armory, not when they watch me do my job or look at the combat logs afterwards (okay except for the arena part but it's still fun).

FYI, my build is exactly the build you posted (0/42/11) but I chose to spend my discretionary points in a way that supports
my play style. Right now I respec 3-4 times a week as it is and doing more respecs for even more specialized builds (in my opinion) is not part of how I enjoy the game. I could be tanking one day and healing another so respeccing is one
of those necessary evils - but I avoid it when I can.

Anyway, now that I know I'm not an idiot because I missed an option somewhere I feel better. I did not understand that the talent build was
assumed, and now I know :-). I work in IT and I understand all too well the need to prioritize projects. Thanks for taking the time to explain, and even proselytize a little :P.