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Topic: Nasrani Church of the East (Read 8411 times)

I would much appreciate any information anyone could supply me in explaining this church to me. Someone very close to me has gotten caught up in this and I am desperate for information concerning the validity or lack there of, so I know what I am up against.

Woh. Seems to be a fusion of Protestant and Nestorian (Quasi-Orthodox) groups. I went to the first site, and some of the language used on the front page is copies of what groups ranging from the Anglicans to the Messianic Jewish use. There's an old joke/jab about some of the more fringe Protestants considering the Bible a fourth member of the Trinity, but these fellows actually DO consider "devotion to the word of God" a sacrament...

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"Christian America is finally waking up to what fraternities and biker gangs have known for years: hazing works!"

I came here after being directed to this forum looking for information about Nestorianism as it is taught (maybe) in the Assyrian Church of the East. I've been doing research on the Nasrani Church of the East and was surprised to find this topic.

I've been researching different Nestorian and Monophysite, or Eastern Christian Churches for a couple of years. The Nasrani Nestorians are an older church that only just started getting attention in North America. Most of their work is in Asia and they do a lot of missionary work and humanitarian assistance to flood victims and for AIDS patience in Africa and other countries. They just only came to America in the late 1980's or early 1990's from Portugal.

Earlier this year I was able to interview their Patriarch because I live near one of their branch head quarter offices in Tennessee. They gave me a lot of great information and didn't charge a penny for it (like some denominations have charged me in the past).

They are really nice people and their faith is centered on Traditional Messianic (not like the Jews for Jesus groups...I don't have anything against J4J but the Nestorians are different). They beleive in teh Trinity, hellfire and their "nestorianism" isn't the same as explained by some Protestant and Catholic groups. They believe in One God. They say that Jesus Christ is one person with two "essences". I think other Nestorians teach that Jesus is "two persons" from what I have studied.

Anyway, they are a great bunch of people ready to help whoever they can. I wrote several papers on this group in the past as I mentioned above I've been researching them for a couple of years.

I consider them legitimate because they are an ancient Church and their teachings are from the Nicene Creed which all Orthodox Churches follow. Their sister Church is the Assyrian Church of the East which both have slight differences in doctrines. The Assyrian Church's website is at http://www.cired.org/

I have been doing a lot of researching, because of my huge level of concern, and the thing that throws up a red flag for me is that the only websites that give direct mention to them are the ones they created themselves, or websites where they can directly add information themselves to read the way they want it to read....ex: Wikipedia. The posting on this website is almost a exact duplicate to their website.... very strange to me. The thing that is most puzzling to me is the country of Nettara. I can't find where anyone, other than themselves, say this country even exists???

Curios, there was a tv show on a week ago (or more) about this group on EWTN (the Catholic channel). I didn't see it myself but a friend said they were interviewing the Nestorians and how some Catholic nuns were coming in and helping teach some of the refugees in the middle east. I tried to find some information about nettara. There are several references when you do an search on the net. But I found an article off the American Bible Society website (I'll post it below).

Anastasios, as far as I can tell both churches don't recognize each other (Assyrian v/s Narsani). they speak Syriac/Aramaic. I had to check on their succession. Their list starts with Mar Thoma with Mar Addai, Agai, Mari, etc. There list is almost identical to the Assyrian Catholics. The Assyrian Nesotorians and the "messianic" Nestorians broke any kind of ties several times between 890 to 1505. Everuthing seems to be about doctrines, namely sabbath observance and old testament regulations. To this day the Narsanis still observe the seventh day sabbath and some I corresponded with even follow kosher laws about Old testmanet foods.

Curios, here's the article I found on American Bible Society. It mentions "Thomas Christians". If you know your history this refers to the Christians in India, mostly Indian Orthodox, Nestorian and Assyrians. Also called "Saint Thomas Christians".

========

Burmese Christians find refuge in new land

All glory be to God!-------------------------------------Introductory note:

The below article is from the "Indian Daily Journal of Kerala", June9, 2004 referring to the new Kingdom of Nettara and St. ThomasChristians of Burma. "Nettara" is an Assyrian-Aramaic word meaning "toprotect."

-------------------------------------

Burmese Christians Seek Refuge in New Kingdom on Western Border of Thailand

Up to a million people have fled their homes in eastern Burma in acrisis the world has largely ignored. Burma's refusal to release AungSan Suu Kyi from house arrest, and the boycotting of theconstitutional convention this month by the main opposition, hasthrust Burma into the spotlight again. But unseen and largelyunremarked is the ongoing harrowing experience of hundreds ofthousands of people in eastern Burma, hiding in the jungle or trappedin army-controlled relocation sites. Others are in refugee camps onthe Thai-Burmese border. These people are victims in acounterinsurgency war in which they are the deliberate targets.

As members of Burma's ethnic minorities - which make up 40 per cent ofthe population - they are trapped in a conflict between the Burmesearmy and ethnic minority armies. Surviving on caches of rice hidden incaves, or on roots and wild foods, families in eastern Burma facemalaria, landmines, disease and starvation. They are hunted likeanimals by army patrols and starved into surrender.

In interviews... refugees told Christian Aid of murder and rape, thetorching of villages and shooting of family members as they layhuddled together in the fields. They recalled farmers who had beenblown up by landmines laid by the army around their crops. Thisreport, based on personal testimonies from refugees, tells the storyof Burma's humanitarian crisis.

On the brink of the Burmese government's announcement of a 'roadmap todemocracy' for a new constitution, Burma's Dirty War argues that anynew political settlement must include the crisis on the country'seastern borders. Burma's refusal to free Aung San Suu Kyi promisesmore intransigence and an even slower pace of change - withpredictable human costs. This report calls on the UK and Irishgovernments, the EU and the UN to use what opportunity remains fromthe roadmap to democracy to press for an end to the conflict innegotiations with ethnic minorities. It also argues that the UN mustgain access to the areas in crisis - despite the Burmese governmentban on travel there by humanitarian agencies.

Key recommendations include:

* that the Burmese government cease human rights abuses, allow accessto eastern Burma by humanitarian agencies including UN specialrepresentatives, and engage in dialogue with ethnic minorityrepresentatives

* that the UK and Irish governments, the EU and the UN fund work withdisplaced people inside Burma and continue to support refugees inThailand

* that the UK and Irish governments, the EU and UN Security Councilcondemn Burma's human rights abuses against ethnic minorities, demandthat it protect civilians from violence and insist that Burma allowaccess to humanitarian agencies The report argues that governmentsmust seize the opportunity presented by the roadmap to push forgenuine negotiations between the government, the National League forDemocracy and ethnic minority organisations which can bring out a justand lasting peace.

The Thomas Christians in Burma, known as the Burmese Orthodox Church,through the efforts of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, has purchased anextensively large zone of land along the border of Thailand and Burmawhere it will be home to more than 20-thousand Burmese Christians andconverts.

The local patriarchal leader, Andrew Yongsanan, originally from EastBurma, said the land was acquired through a special contract bycooperation of three different governments including Burma, Thailandand the Patriarchate of Jerusalem ruled by Isagelos Michai Yaza fromwithin the United States. Yongsanan told media that the new land isreferred to as the "Kingdom of Nettara" under the control of the headof the Patriarchate of Jerusalem with representatives from Burma,Thailand, China and India.

Asked about... how something of this magnitude took place so quietly,Yongsanan said, "It was in God's hands..." "a short while ago."Yongsanan said, "The most important thing for us to look at right nowis that God is in control and his people are in His protection."

Two hospitals, a radio station, and electrical system have beenestablished as well as three water filtration systems throughout thezone.

The new government offers hope to those who were once persecuted bythe ruthless military regime of Burma and could offer hope to others.

- Copyright 2004 by The Indian Daily Journal of Kerala, June 9, 2004.(Christian Aid Newsletter of May 24, 2004 contributed to this article)

Hope nobody minds, I'm posting a list here of some good reference books on the subject. These have to do with the Nasranis and the Assyrians and some references to their land possessions throughout Asia and Persia.

Hope anything I've provided is helpful,Ronny

The Church of the East: A History of the Nestorian Church, by William Baum, Dietmar Winkler

From the Holy Mountain: A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East, by William Dalrymple

The Church of the East: A History of the Nestorian Church by William Baum

Dictionary of Asian Christianity

Encyclopedia of Early Christianity

A History of Christianity: Volume I: Beginnings to 1500: Revised Edition

History of Russia, Central Asia and Mongolia

The Archaeology of Elam: Formation and Transformation of an Ancient Iranian State by Daniel T Potts

New Cambridge Medieval History (Volume 4, C.1024 - C.1198, part 1)

Fustat on the Nile: The Jewish Elite in Medieval Egypt by Elinoar Bareket

Shalom: I am new to this forum, a resident of the Ok in the USA. I am co-vice president of the Bible Sabbath Association www.biblesabbath.org Our organization promotes and observes the 7th Day Sabbath of the 10 commandments. I would love to contact someone of the Nasrani Church to include them in our Sabbath Keeping Church Directory, and to write a festure article on their church. Please forward my e-mail address to someone in their church or provide me privately with contact info for someone or an official in their group.

Curious I agree with you I see no reason to doubt the validity of the Nestorians, etc. But, I see definite questionability to the validity of this Nasrani Church of The East, everything about them points back to the same sites and people. I will look into this further if I find anything that might help you I'll let you know.

Curios, I found the article at http://w3.to/baptistmissions I'm mistaken it's not the American Bible Society website. it's a Baptist missionary links site and hosted by the American Bible Society. Forgive my mistake. Click on the news link and scroll down toward the bottom.

Some of the news on their website seems to be outdated but the article is there.

I didn't see everybody's posts earlier. Curios, if you mean legitimate like being not existing (?) then I know they have churches in Tennessee, Vermont, Oregon, Texas, Florida and Georgia as far as America is concerned. Then there's churches in Israel, Syria and several in India and the far east. When I was doing research on them for my own sake I was in communication with several of their priests and they gave me a lot of background information about the different cultures in their churches.

I've been looking for a Orthodox home for myself and I've been researching as many groups as I can. I can't see myself joining the Nasrani Church of the east because personally I think they're too strict. DOn't get me wrong. I respect the fact they take a stand on their belief system. I dont think enough churches do today. But the Nasranis are more strict than the Assyrians and I was told by an Assyrian church that I should find a protestant church to join so that turned me off. So thats when I found the Nasrani Church of the East.

But if you mean they dont exist then I know they do exist. I fyou mean their doctrines then if you study them you know they are really strict. I'm rambling now.

The thing about the "newly established kingdom of Nettara" is wierd. On one of the sites they state it is a newly established independent kingdom, ruled by "Lady Rachel, Duchess of Nettara"(who looks pretty anglo-saxon to me. You'd think a kingdom would be ruled by a king or queen).The UN's website does not list Nettara as a soveriegn nation. Neither does the CIA factbook, wikitravel ot wikipedia.

Here's a quote from a book about Nasrani Nestorians in India indicating that Nestorians are the same thing as Nasranis. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š There's no difference between the two. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š The Assyrians loath the name "Nestorian" and thus do not like to be called by that name and do not technically belogn to the Nestorian denomination. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š But don't get the name "Nazrani" mixed up with "Nasrani" or "Nestorian". ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š There's a new age group up in Michigan that calls themselves "Nazrani". ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š That's a group I would stay away from. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Very strange. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Anyway here's the quote:

"Christians of Travancore, in India, have also the name of Nazareanee (Nasrani/Nasarani/Nazarani) or Nazareans. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š And in Syria the term is used in a general sense, probably because that was the land of the first Hebrew converts, whose name appears to have there survived them. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š But this should obviously be regarded only as an exception to a general rule; since, as we have seen, the term is well defined, and supported by the most abundant testimony. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š It is more probable, however, that the former who case alone calls for particular notice, derived the name from the Nestorians who were driven to seek refuge in India by the bloody persecutions of the fourth and seventh centuries. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š They may be, therefore, in part at least, a branch of the present Nestorians of Media and Assyria. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We have good evidence that they were formerly o the Nestorian faithÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦Or they may be converts from some other branch of the Hebrew family. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š It is worthy of inquiry, whether the Syrian Christians of Travancore have not traditions, rites, customs, or other evidence of a Hebrew originÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦It is quite celar that the Nazareans were converted Jews; and the Nestorians, being Nazareans, must be converted Jews." ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

From, The Nestorians or the Lost Tribe, by Asahel Grant.

And just a thought in passing, you might want to talk to some of their priests. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I'm sure they would be able to give you better information that I could. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Personally I prefer to rely on the source and not second-hand information. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Just a thougt.

I noticed that myself I think that leaves a lot to be questioned personally. As far as your response Blessed, I don't think the question is the validity of the Nasrani, or Nestorians, but yet the vaidity of this idividual group of people called The Nasrani Church of The East, who like Crucifer points out has a very questionable Duchess of Nettara, who has proclaimed Health Care for Dummies her book of the month? give me a break, do they even print that book in other languages?? LOL

Note that recently the fictional Nettara and it's Duchess has dropped off the face of the internet....hmmm leaves room for question. I don't think our fraudelent religion can any longer prove the validity of their made up country between Burhma and Thailand.

I will tell you about them in the “Arab” point view since that is what I am. I know both Assyrians and “Nasrani” or “Nazarene” religion by friendship and marriage (to my cousins).

Both religions are Orthodox and speak Aramaic that I call "old Arabic" Language (I understand it somewhat because of the similarities to modern day Arabic/Hebrew).

The Nazarene in Arabic; the name is taking from the Name of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, “Jesus of Nazareth” thus, Nasrani is Nazareth (the town in modern day Israel (Judah region of the bible) andÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ Palestine)Yes, they are very strict, because they want the old way of Christianity as we lived during Jesus Christ time/era that means no TV, Music, etcÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦. So they are very strict in beliefs this is why maybe you find them “different” in terms of Orthodox Religion. However, I find their beliefs similar to mine which is Greek Orthodox but very strict since we are more liberal in certain terms like I watch TV and listen to the Radio. The Assyrians are like us in regards to their “liberalism.”ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡ The ones I know are all from IraqÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦. Near the North in the mountains (snows there)ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦. I understand like in my area of Jordan (I am Jordanian-American) ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦. they are the first Christians by St. Peter as well as places like Antioch in Syria. EtcÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦.

So I hope I answered some questions, please remember, this is only from personal information of what I’ve observed and know as far as friends and relatives.

This is the true Nasrani I know... the one called Duchess etc.... sounds like a "cult" like, by means of using a real religion and then distorting it.... that is odd to me too.... never heard of this from the Arab World (Christian) area. However the Orthodox religion of "Jesus of Nazareth" is what I truly know.... the rest might be a poor parody??? God knows the truth.

Well I know for fact this group who call themselves "Nasrani Church of the East" are not as strict as what you have spoken about. They do watch TV, music, etc. they claim they are located in this place called Mishqwana (sp?) this place is in fact a little town in Camden, TN and they run this supposed religion out of a trailer they live in. I just find everything about it very odd, and very false. I have no doubt that there really are true Nestorrians there is to much to read about them, etc., but these people do not seem to be real, more like brainwashers who want to put themselves on pedestals with fancy names. Do you know how that faith stands on homosexuality? The two men who run this group are also gay, and proclaim to be writing a true version of the bible translated directly from the peshitta. Very, very odd if you ask me.

I think the Assyrian Church of the East refers to the Nestorian Church if i'm not mistaken; this is a completely different Church to that of the so-called "Nazarenes." Both would be considered heretical Churches from the Orthodox perpsective, though I don't know much about the Ecumenical relationship between the EO and the Assyrian Church. The Nazarene Church was one of the earliest heretical sects that denied the divinity of Christ, and that maintained strict adherence to the Law of Moses as if it were a religious obligation (I think they were anti-Pauline as well, though my memory is a little rusty and I may be confusing them with the Ebionites - a similar sect that had existed in that era also).

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

They've taken down a bunch of their sites now that people have started questioning their authenticity, but they still have several but they've been changed. When someone says something doesn't make sense they seem to change their belief so as not to conflict or contradict. Of course I find it interesting they had this supposed country called Nettara, but now I guess Nettara washed away or something.....because it sure has disappeared as well as their fake Duchess Rachel.

Yes, I do believe it is the Ebionites; the Nazarene I know believe in Christ Our Lord and the Holy Trinity.... 3 in one. Yes, they are very strict in observance of the old Christian faith. The ones I know in Iraq are not cult like but religious good people. Jordan has interfaith marriage between Christians because we are pretty much united (mostly under the Greek Orthodox Faith -- 85%) so it is not odd for us to marry Assyrians or "Jesus of Nazareth" faith and so on.

The ones in TN are cult like to me....sounds twisted and non-Orthodox. I am not surprised....many good religions these days are getting to be Cult like, God help us all! Almost sounds like (forgot their name) this so-called Christians who marry more than one women and are under age (saw it on Oprah) that was scary! That in know way is any true Christians.

Thanks for your insite, it's a shame that people will utilize religion for personal and monatary gain, especially when they are leading people down the wrong path. Which typically tends to be young minds who are easily manipulated because of their desire to belong to something. This group is very strange I just hope the people who have been hoodwinked into this cult like faith will wake up.

Sh'lama Alekhumi! You folks are nearly correct concerning the Nasrani-Nestorian Church of the East a.k.a. Nazaraean Orthodox Church of Jerusalem. I was once a member and clergy within this splinter jurisdiction of the Assyrian Orthodox Church of the East. This Church separated from the Catholicosate of the East (Baghdad) after H.H. Catholicos-Patriarch +Mar Binyamin Shimun was martyred in 191 in Kurdistan. They were members of the Mar Thoma Nasranis in Kerala & Tamil Nadu...as well as in Ceylon, Goa and Burma. They have now, under the present leadership fallen completely into heresy and no longer reflect Nazaraean Orthodoxy..whether Assyrian or Thomasine. Their American Clergy are in Camden, Tn, New Hampshire, Beaverton, Oregon and in Brazil. They now number in the Western Hemisphere less than 1000 souls, praise God! They're Catholicos "Malakosois Isagelos Chazak Yaza a.k.a. Mar Michai" has fled to his Family in Eretz Y'srael. I and my Church severed all ties to them November 15, 2005 due to their heresies and innovations...not to mention their leadership's membership in Gnostic, Theosophic and Universalist Societies and groups. Nettara was and remains a hoax. I have exposed this from within, and I am the reason that they have sought to erase their past and prior web sites clean of all that existed prior to my departure. I was an Orthodox Nasrani seminarian when I found this jurisdiction and joined some years back. I went into Holy Orders and eventually became bishop of the US Pacific Northwest, and was a counsellor to Michai. Then I began to see that there was heterodoxy and heteropraxy within the American Church and I believe in the rest of the Church which exists in small parishes in India, Syria, Israel and South America. Their Leader informed me he was Shemishqo i.e. Desposyni and descendant of Mar Yakov ha'Tzaddiq (i.e. St. James the Just...Messiah's step brother by Joseph the Carpenter). Then came Papal like canons, Universalist beliefs, Judaizing of non Hebrew Natzari (Gentile Nasranis). My own Archdeacon fell into such heresy and so I removed him from office and denounced the church as an Apostate Sect and Promulgator of Deceits and stealing the grand history of the Church of the East as if it were there own...yet they no longer continue as Mar Thoma Nasranis of Assyrian heritage. I have gone on-line to expose them and now they circle their feeble wagons and create a new facade for themselves...I am ashamed and have asked Mar-Yah's forgiveness for ever joining or becoming a member of this Montanists like sect of Oriental & American misfits. I know all the well known players in the USA and overseas. If you'd like all the datum just email me and I'll give you my Yahoo forum addresses so you can see all the old htmls, documents, map of Nettara and other documents they failed to expunge before I saved them all. I now have my small Mission here in McMinnville, Oregon and oversee a few refugee Parishes in Lisbon, Portugal. We call ourselves the Nazaraean Orthodox Church-Qehal d'Natzari Shamrani (USA) & the Independent Iberian Orthodox Church (Portugal). What has happened to the Anglican Communion has begun to happen in this Jurisdiction.....a schism between we few Orthodox and the rest who have fallen asleep in the Light under the spelll of False shepherds. Our Faith is very close to Eastern Orthodoxy and our Practices akin to the Assyrians and Mar Thoma Nasranis from which we are derived. We retain the same essential Faith, Rites, Orders and Practices...yet we do have our particulars such as Sabbath Observances as well as Sunday Observances. We use unleavened Bread (Motzah) on Shabbat and High Holy Days, but on Resurrection Day and other Sundays we use Leavened Bread as our other Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Brethren do. We have Mebaqqar'im (bishops), Zeqan'im (Priests) and Shamash'im (Deacons)...and all my marry before ordination. We have celibates, Monks, Nuns etc. In the West we use Icons etc, but in the East many still refrain from doing so so as not to give wrong impressions to Muslims and Hindus. My Liturgy is now in English and is Westernized..as that is who I evangelize. I tend to use Eastern Orthodox language theologically, and unlike others, My Canon of the Tanakh (O.T.) and the Brit Chadashah (N.T.) is the Koine Greek LXX and Byzantine Text NT. Our Canon is the same as in Eastern Orthodoxy, with the exception that we do accept the Didache, the Book of Enoch and Jubilees. Our Calendar is the Jubilee or old Assyrian type. We seek Unity in Essential Dogmas, Liberty in Ritual non-essentials and Charity in all things. I am glad to have stumbled upon this forum. I thank you for your time. And please remember, that not all Natzari (i.e. Nasranis) are cultists and apostates like these Yazaeans (i.e. followers of Chazak Yaza). I pray one day the Syrians, Assyrians, Chaldaeans and Mar Thoma Nasranis of the Orient shall re-united on this basis so that we may be one as He is One. Maran Y'shua Ha'Meshikha Atta!

Peace, The article about St. Thomas Christians (i.e. Mar Thoma Nasranis/Natzari Shmarani d'Mar Thoma) is true, but the article about Nettara is a fake, and was distributed widely by the Sect which claims to be Mar Thoma Nasrani and their Leader the King of Nettara. Nettara is no more than the refugee areas along the Myanmar Border in several adjoining Thai Provinces from Loas to the Sea. It was a fiction created by the Leadership of the Nasrani-Nestorian Church of the East a.k.a. The Nazaraean Orthodox Church of Jerusalem under a Mar Michai, who claims to be a Desposyni Catholicos-Patriarch of Hebrew (Temani) and Burmese descent. I know all this because I was once a member of this branch of the Old Church of the East gone apostate. Since November 15, 2005 I and my church have been idependant of this Neo-Montanist Sect of apostate Nasranis. Now they seek to rease all evidences of this lie and their other errors and constant chamelion like permutations. Dutchess Rachel is none other than Rachel McClowsky of Camden, Tennessee...and her father is the second in charge of the Sect Internationally and the chief in the USA. His name is David McClowsky, and he pays for the Sects Web presence online, and owns most of the domain names they use. The Mishqana (Holy See) has moved from the USA to Israel because I have exposed this Sect and their leader and so he fled to Israel were his Family lives. This Sect is small, and has less than 9 parishes in the USA and Brazil, and it might have 200 souls therein. In Israel, Syria, Kerala, Tamil Nadu and the Orient I doubt there is more than 3000 or so...but they claim much much more. I have all the facts, documents, htmls and maps of Nettara, as well as their official certificate of citizenship abroad which was gven out online at (www.nettara.com) for all Sect members free of charge...but now they have changed this too. Nettara is a black eye which they seek to hide, but it was self inflicted. I left becuase I discovered this hoax, and many other errors, heresies and heterodox associations with the head of the Sect and others in leadership roles in America, Great Britian and Syria. I will respond to anyone who seeks the facts about this sect, but remember not all Nasranis are such as these.

Alakum Salaam,Thank you Kenatel I understand, I know about the Nazarene of Jerusalem since I am from Jordan and I knew the religion in the States was cult like, it is easy to use the same name and then twist to lure honest and innocent people.

It seems to me that this church is a mission headed under the Antiochian Church, unless I'm mistaken. If you are in communion with that Church, does that mean you are in communion with all Eastern Orthodox of the seven ecumenical councils?

Do you also have a website where we can learn more about your mission?

Also, what would be your views of the Assyrian Church of the East (i.e. the "Nestorian" Church)?

--Mina

« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 11:56:58 AM by minasoliman »

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Kenatel used the word "independent" in defining his jurisdiction. That reminds me of the "independent" church that used to go by the name of "the Coptic Orthodox Catholic Church". It was a small church with less than 50 members, started by a defrocked Ethiopian Bishop who promoted himself to Patriarch. His "successor" spent most of his time on the internet posting in his web blog; when I found out, all hell broke loose, and through a tactful threat of legal action he changed the name of his Church to "The Ancient Apostolic Church" or some BS like that.

Apparently there's hundreds if not thousands of these so-called "independent" Churches.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 11:19:36 AM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

I have no idea what Kental's church actually is, and I am not deeming it part of the "independent" movement that I referred to in my previous post; I am only raising my suspicions in consideration of the very employment of that word in the jurisdiction title of his church. Frankly, I don't have the time, nor do I really care to properly investigate what his church is exactly.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 11:28:25 AM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

I have no idea what Kental's church actually is, and I am not deeming it part of the "independent" movement that I referred to in my previous post; I am only raising my suspicions in consideration of the very employment of that word in the jurisdiction title of his church. Frankly, I don't have the time, nor do I really care to properly investigate what his church is exactly.

I guess you can call it a fad?

lol

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

This curious because while working last year in Iraq I heard about the Yezidis and that they were "devil worshipers" and somehow worshipped John the Baptist according to Muslims. They are numerous in the Kurdish areas in the north. Seems like they have some "essene" beliefs. One other note - an interpreter who was an Assyrian born in Iraq told me that his people called Saddam Hussain "Nasrani". That's the first time I heard the word "nasrani."

This curious because while working last year in Iraq I heard about the Yezidis and that they were "devil worshipers" and somehow worshipped John the Baptist according to Muslims. They are numerous in the Kurdish areas in the north.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Seems like they have some "essene" beliefs.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š One other note - an interpreter who was an Assyrian born in Iraq told me that his people called Saddam Hussain "Nasrani".ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š That's the first time I heard the word "nasrani."

Yes, well, not Devil Worshippers as Christians know it; the Yezidis believe that the "Angel Satan" has not fallen and is still the highest Archangel of God; as far as worshipping John the Baptist I think this is an error by the Iraqi Muslims unless anyone can correct me on this. Yes the Yezidis is a religion among the Kurds until this day. If you enter their homes, you will see no Quran or Bible and refuse to speak more about their religion.As far as Saddam being a Nasrani, first I have heard of it; I thought he was a Muslim Sunni.

Yes, well, not Devil Worshippers as Christians know it; the Yezidis believe that the "Angel Satan" has not fallen and is still the highest Archangel of God; as far as worshipping John the Baptist I think this is an error by the Iraqi Muslims unless anyone can correct me on this. Yes the Yezidis is a religion among the Kurds until this day. If you enter their homes, you will see no Quran or Bible and refuse to speak more about their religion.As far as Saddam being a Nasrani, first I have heard of it; I thought he was a Muslim Sunni.

Thanks and stay safe!

In Christ,Hadel

It seems that you're right about John the Baptist. From the reading I've just done on the subject (purely out of interest because I'd never heard of the Yezidis before) it seems that both the Yezidis and the Mandaeans have been referred to as Sabians by Muslims in the past (and nobody really seems all that certain as to who the Sabians in the Koran actually refer to). The Yezidis do not appear to have any devotion to John the Baptist but the Mandaeans consider him one of their greatest prophets (whilst rejecting Christ and, weirdly, Moses and Abraham as false prophets). I'd guess that what bergschlawiner heard was caused by confusion due to the fact that both groups have been labeled as Sabian at some point in history.

James

Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

I've being trying to come to grips with who the "Nasrani Church of the East" really are. I see now that there are several voices out there, and several images relayed on who they really are. I'm getting this uneasy feeling that the Nasranis might be a sheepfold, without shepherds able to care for them; a clergy trying to establish some structure for what remains of the Nasrani people. I now begin to hear these words from Tarantino's Pulp Fiction: "The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd."

God forbid that they are "evil men", but upon reading Kenat'el's report (above), one certainly does get the impression of an unstable structure. I truly do hope that this is not the case.

Now there is one aspect where I get seriously suspicious, and that's about scripture they share, in particular Sefer Akhi Yeshua Mshikha downloadable from http://www.standardversion.org/downloads.php. (Direct link foot-noted below) It's a collection of mostly monologues of Jesus, among which are passages from the Gospels, and passages I find from Martin Palmer's book "The Jesus Sutras", that is from early Christian material found in China.

My first question is: Does this Sefer draw from only aramaic material or other material possessed by the Nasranis, or are these particular passages from the Chinese liturgy/collection?

Second question: If these passages are from the Chinese collection, why does their version in Sefer Akhi Yeshua Mshikha differ from the translation I find in Martin Palmer's book? If they originate from the same source, why do I see that they change words, add, subtract (sometimes subtracting phrases, sentences or whole paragraphs, sometimes adding words and phrases).

I'm concerned about their integrity in this respect. It's alright to make known words of Jesus previously unknown to the masses, but it should be done in integrity, without manipulating the sources.

Dutchess Rachel is none other than Rachel McClowsky of Camden, Tennessee...and her father is the second in charge of the Sect Internationally and the chief in the USA. His name is David McClowsky, and he pays for the Sects Web presence online, and owns most of the domain names they use. The Mishqana (Holy See) has moved from the USA to Israel because I have exposed this Sect and their leader and so he fled to Israel were his Family lives. This Sect is small, and has less than 9 parishes in the USA and Brazil, and it might have 200 souls therein. In Israel, Syria, Kerala, Tamil Nadu and the Orient I doubt there is more than 3000 or so...but they claim much much more.

Just to clarify some more Dutchess Rachel's name is not Rachel but I will not reveal her name because I'm trying to figure all this out and protect her specifically. David McCloskey (not mcclowsky) does indeed own all the numerous sites that circle around and around under all these false dotrines. I believe he is using his false teaching to profit off of vulnerable and lost individuals.

My Church is but a small mission in Oregon that has rejected not only the heresies of the "Jerusalem Church" as they now call themselves, but their authority. That Took place November 15, 2005. On December 1, 2006 I and my Mission were received into full communion by H.B. Metropolitan Archbishop +Paul Robert Sales, Los Angeles California and his Western Rite Jurisdiction (Orthodox Old Catholic). I was a once an Episcopalian entering holy orders when my conscience denied my further communion with the ECUSA et all do to their apostasy. I became an Orthodox Mar Thoma Nazrani and realized that the jurisdiction I had joined, become a priest etc. in was in fact a 20th Century schismatic branch of the Assyrian Orthodox Church of the East (+Mar Binyamin Shimun ---+Mar Dinkha) from the era of British Colonialism of Pakistan, India, Ceylon, Bangladesh and Burma (1918 - Present). When they began to call Sadhu Sundar Singh a saint and began to teach his Swedensborgian Universalism and Theosophy I made my stand and left. I admit I am not in canonical communion with the Patriarchs of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem or Babylon...nor subject to Canterbury either. But I am in communion with a legitimate U.S. Branch of the Old Catholics who have become Eastern Orthodox in their theology and not Jansenist. So I may not be OCA or Antiochian...but I am still Orthodox in Dogma and Western Rite in Practice. My Orders have been investigated and received as valid, as I was ordained into the episcopacy (June 1, 2003) by the Mar Thoma Nazrani Metropolitan of India H.B. +Mar Timotheos Alvernaz, and two other Nazarani Bishops. Alvernaz was a good man and a faithful Orthodox Christian. The confussion comes from the terrible divisions of the Thomasine Church throughout India (Goa, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Ceylon and Burma) since European Colonialism (Portuguese Romanists, Dutch Reformers, English Anglicans & Scottish Presbyterians) The Assyrian Orthodox Church of the East was the Thomasine Church of the Orient, until colonialism came in and sought to "convert" these Thomasines into their churches by force. Rome had already set up a rival Church of the East in Assyria called the Chaldean Rite Catholic Church. And in India it sought to bring Thomasines into that fold, or create a new fold altogether...but Roman Catholic. Since much of the Indian Church was cut off from Baghdad (Babylon See) Antioch (Jacobites) came in to fill the vacuum.....next came in Protestantism of every sort...so the Thomasines of Goa, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Sri Lanka and Burma either became Romanized, Syrianized, Anglicanized, Presbyterianized, Protestantized or remained loyal Assyrians or became Independent Mar Thoma Nasranis after the martyrdom of the Patriarch of the East +Mar Binyamin Shiumun in 1918. My Rite is Occidental, but my Faith is Assyrian Orthodox...and no, we are not "Nestorians" as our Syrian "Monophytes" brethren still call us. If you will research it, the Assyrian Orthodox Church did accept the Council of Chalcedon as Orthodox, and as a justification of +John Nestorius of Anticoch. We hold Jesus Christ is One Person with Two Natures (Human & Divine). He is the Logos incarnate...True God from True God.....eternally begotten of the Father before all ages and not a creature. We use the Old Calendar of the Semitic East, so Old Oriental Catholic is a good term for me. I am Autonomous as NW bishop in communion with the Metropolitan of L.A. & Southwest USA. Independent was used in this manner....Old Catholics are under no Patriarchate, save the Archbishop of Holland......yet they have become liberal too now. We have the 7 Mysteries as well as the same Dogmas. Our Traditions are similar, yet we retain many Jewish customs etc....as is expected of Nazaraeans of the Way. I use the complete LXX Tanakh & Koine New Testament as my Canon, as I was trained in Greek during Seminary before I took Holy Orders. Though the Aramaic Peshitto/Peshitta is the Canon of the Orient...I prefer the Canon it was translated from. This posed problems for me among Assyrians and Indian "Malayam" Thomasines of every stripe.....but the LXX was the Canon of Messiah and His Sh'liachim (Apostles), as their citations are either verbatum LXX or paraphrases of it.....not the Hebrew/Aramaic Tanakh. So maybe I am a Hellenist Nazaraean after all?

Happy Pesach to all of you, and My our Lord and Our God bring us all into complete unity one day soon!

In Messiah, H.G. +Mar Kenat'el

P.S. "Dutches" Rachael is her official name..she is Mar David McClowsky's Daughter. David is the Sar-Patriarch (Prince of Nettara), while his consecrator is the King of Nettara. They have published a new map and story about Nettara after my online expose of them and their hoax nation created out of the border lands of Myanmar and Thailand. My old and apostate archceadcon Drew Cahnner (Mar Andreos) is now their chief English Rabban and Bishop for all english speakers! I had not fully trained him before he was secretly made bishop without my knowlwdge...so out goes the Apostolic Rudder. But I would not parrot their heresies, hoaxes and lies...so they had to elevated a man not worthy of the priesthood. He is a former Muslim mystic turned Antiochian Orthodox turned Mar Thoma Nasrani...and he always was a devotee of Sadhu Sundar Singh....I tried to chnage his ways but to no avail. I ordained him into the deaconate and made him a priest and my archdeacon. Well I have paid the price for my poor judgment.....but at least I am free of them all.