the weak era is absolutely NO argument. Because it's ridiculous to suggest that the average atp pro would get worse at any point in time. Why on earth would they?

The real reason is slowing down of the surfaces and the fact that this made S&V that much harder. Murray would not be winning the amount of points on the return he's is winning today on the old faster surfaces.

Another reason, of course, is the technology. Guys like Borg used a wooden racquet with which the serve is way harder to control. Murray is a master at that, but would probably not have a clue with a wooden racquet.

So in an absolute sense he maybe is the best returner ever, but you can't really say that he did better at this than former ATP heroes who had a much tougher time returning.

Also, a definition issue. What is a great returner? Someone who hits the RETURN OF SERVE well? or someone who wins a lot of points. Rafa is an average returner, but wins a lot of points because he's an AMAZING baseliner. Theoretically, one can have the best return of serve, yet still hardly win a point because his next ball is so poor. What do you mean by returner. Best return of serve or best return GAME?

Quite possibly and the argument can be made for him. Personally I think Agassi and Hewitt are better over the last 20 years or so. Would put Murray third. When it comes to punishing second serves they are better than Murray. Even when it comes to punishing average to good serves. Hewitt and Agassi could punish even the Federer serve in a way Murray cannot. Hewitt even now can punish Djokovic's serve. Murray and Federer are probably the two best defensive returners I have seen.

The stats are telling, but not the be all for several reasons.
1. You have to take into account that return stats are always going to favour the player with a better defence. Case in point Murray is always going to win more points that Agassi when he has been made to run.
2. Murray plays on slower hard courts than Agassi and Hewitt did.
3. Murray has yet to decline. Agassi had several years where he was playing terrible tennis and continued to play into an advanced age. Hewitt has been fighting on the tour for 6 years, after injuries finished him as a top player. Murray's numbers will no doubt fall if he is a 31 year old ranked in the 80s.

First thing to remember is that the "all time" stats only go back as far as about 1990, when IBM began compiling them. What numbers would Connors and Lendl have if their '70s and '80s performances were also recorded? What would Borg's numbers be?

Second, as others mentioned, Andy is mid-career, i.e. his stats don't yet include the almost inevitable age-related decline in performance which is factored into retired rivals' numbers (e.g. Chang's).

Third, stats only tell you so much, but they never take into account the opponent or the occasion. One of the reasons Sampras rates so highly as a server was his ability to ace when he was break-point down, or match-point up. Becker too was a guy who played better at critical junctures. And of course Djokovic had an uncanny ability in 2011 to hit the lines when it really mattered ~ as Roger Federer would attest to. I don't think Murray has a track record like that yet as a returner.

Fourth, as raised by other posters, the changing technologies and court speeds of the last ten years mean that it's probably easier for returners than in the '70s or '80s (fast grass, wooden racquet, blah blah blah).

But I do acknowledge that he is one of the very best over the past 20-25 years, no doubt about it.

Infact, I still think Djokovic is the best returner in the game today, not Murray.

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And you could well be right - there is no definitive basis for establishing 'best returner' - I was being a bit naughty in the thread title. I just thought it noteworthy that Murray appeared so high on the 'career' lists - I didn't expect that.

To those who think he would not have returned as well on the faster courts - don't forget that the players then were not facing 140+mph serves a lot of the time. The courts may be slower now, but the modern technology aids much faster serves.

Stats for returning are harder to use in terms of judging a players return ability. Nadal has high return stat numbers, but his return isn't great; he puts lots of balls back in and it's what he does to defend the point that wins him a lot of them

Agassi is the best returner if I have to chose. He was able not just to return but to literally punish you hitting crazy winners.

Murray is a great returner, no question, but he doesn't do much with it, he simply put the ball back. I think that Djokovic is more agressive with his ROS and that's why some experts think that he is a better returner than Murray (both JMac and Agassi claimed that in their interviews).

Agassi is the best returner if I have to chose. He was able not just to return but to literally punish you hitting crazy winners.

Murray is a great returner, no question, but he doesn't do much with it, he simply put the ball back. I think that Djokovic is more agressive with his ROS and that's why some experts think that he is a better returner than Murray (both JMac and Agassi claimed that in their interviews).

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Murray wins more points on return and more return games (on hard). If he only put the ball back into play, surely that wouldn't be possible.

Based on stats he is up there with Agassi, hard to tell, but it is easier to return serves in this era than it was before, bu he is top 3 for sure, he is i believe best 1st serve returner. Andre was small guy and prone to be aced a lot and Nole is not such great 1st serve returner how people thinks - those guys were great at 2nd serves, agressive returners, while Andy is able to give back anything on 1st serve, but too passiv on 2nd serves.

Based on stats he is up there with Agassi, hard to tell, but it is easier to return serves in this era than it was before, bu he is top 3 for sure, he is i believe best 1st serve returner. Andre was small guy and prone to be aced a lot and Nole is not such great 1st serve returner how people thinks - those guys were great at 2nd serves, agressive returners, while Andy is able to give back anything on 1st serve, but too passiv on 2nd serves.

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No it's not. These days, nobody really charges the net. Agassi looked good because he faced guys like Stich, Ivanisevic and Becker, who would rush the net after the served and it would come back just as fast, so they would naturally miss the point whenever Agassi got a good return. These days, getting a good return back doesn't help you as much because the servers stay behind and it's much harder to hit outright return winners or forced errors with your return.

His return would look a lot less devastating if his opponents stayed behind.

No it's not. These days, nobody really charges the net. Agassi looked good because he faced guys like Stich, Ivanisevic and Becker, who would rush the net after the served and it would come back just as fast, so they would naturally miss the point whenever Agassi got a good return. These days, getting a good return back doesn't help you as much because the servers stay behind and it's much harder to hit outright return winners or forced errors with your return.

His return would look a lot less devastating if his opponents stayed behind.

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Yes they rushed the net all the time, but i mean it is easier to return - give it back, because of slower balls, slower surfaces and better racquets, it is easier to get big serve back. Many guys were SV-ing all the time after 2nd serve too- there were those stats better for guys like Agassi, it was almost stupid to rush net after 2nd serve vs good returner, but on 1st serve i am not so sure.

Yes they rushed the net all the time, but i mean it is easier to return - give it back, because of slower balls, slower surfaces and better racquets, it is easier to get big serve back. Many guys were SV-ing all the time after 2nd serve too- there were those stats better for guys like Agassi, it was almost stupid to rush net after 2nd serve vs good returner, but on 1st serve i am to so sure.

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I think his era made him look better than he is. An aggressive return is brilliant against a serve and volleyer, as the chances of hitting a return winner is high and the chance of forcing an error is even higher. Acting like the surfaces were so much more against him doesn't make up for that fact.

Agassi is the best returner if I have to chose. He was able not just to return but to literally punish you hitting crazy winners.

Murray is a great returner, no question, but he doesn't do much with it, he simply put the ball back. I think that Djokovic is more agressive with his ROS and that's why some experts think that he is a better returner than Murray (both JMac and Agassi claimed that in their interviews).

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Very true, Murray is more consistent of the two but Novak, when on song, attacks like there is no tomorrow.

In the current era, returning aggressively isn't as important since people don't come in. Murray can beat most people off the ground anyway, so his best bet is to neutralize the serve. It gave Federer fits at Wimbledon and led to Murray crushing him in the Olympic final. Do you think Djokovic would've given Federer the near bagel that Murray gave him in the second set? Djokovic, even at his best couldn't neutralize Federer's return like that, even if Federer was tired. Murray was doing to Federer, what Federer typically does to Roddick.

That is why I woud consider Murray superior to Djokovic.

Besides, what about Ferrer? Guy clearly has worse groundies than Djokovic, but still is ahead of him in return statistics.

In the current era, returning aggressively isn't as important since people don't come in. Murray can beat most people off the ground anyway, so his best bet is to neutralize the serve. It gave Federer fits at Wimbledon and led to Murray crushing him in the Olympic final. Do you think Djokovic would've given Federer the near bagel that Murray gave him in the second set? Djokovic, even at his best couldn't neutralize Federer's return like that, even if Federer was tired. Murray was doing to Federer, what Federer typically does to Roddick.

That is why I woud consider Murray superior to Djokovic.

Besides, what about Ferrer? Guy clearly has worse groundies than Djokovic, but still is ahead of him in return statistics.