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EDIT: Wow, got home from a 10 hour shift and saw my post on the top of the front page. Thanks guys.

gravitationaltim had it right,

Reasonable reply. I think the OP was referring more to a technical class with textbooks and stuff

This is exactly what I was referring to. There should be a general handy skills class, perhaps as an elective or something similar, that teaches technical aspects to everyday technology/activities in a useful way. Automobiles, wiring, plumbing, maybe a bit of wood and metal shop, maybe even a bit of finance and cooking etc. Things that people have to do as adult automobile and home owners, but don't really get prepared for through regular schooling. Looking at the responses, it seems as though it varies by area whether or not these classes are available, but I'd love to see them more widely offered.

Judging from the stories from /r/talesfromtechsupport and seeing as how my Intro to Computers class needed half an hour to learn how to open a new tab in IE, I don't think the vast majority of the populace could handle that class.

Yeah, I remember my first computer and having to learn DOS prompts.
Now, you're got operating systems like Windows 8.
I remember someone putting it rather well. It use to be smart people in front of dumb computers, now it's dumb people in front of smart computers.

New bios, several new capacitors, update the TCP/IP, download a new router, and a gummy worm removal in a white room. Porn has damaged your hard drive dinner plate-- you'll need to replace that, it's not too hard to do yourself, just avoid dust. And a hacker overclocked your RAM, that's why the time's wrong.

Overall, shouldn't take more than 3 months and a couple grand. And that's cheap!

Reasonable reply. I think the OP was referring more to a technical class with textbooks and stuff, but this is a legit reason that classes like this aren't available. Also I would argue relevancy (besides the fact that it's near impossible to be an American without a car).

In my high school there was an introduction to automotive class that you were required to take before you could take classes in the shop itself. Since you didn't have to take classes in shop beyond that, this class would be similar to what it is the op is talking about.

About the cost, I'm not really sure I'm ok with that as an argument. My entire high school comprised of less then 450 students, but we had a fully equiped automotive shop, wood shop, and metal shop. It all depends entirely on how much of the budget the school is willing to spend on this area, versus others.

My old high school is essentially the exact opposite. They constructed a $15+ million complex comprised of:

football/soccer field w/ astroturf

running track

softball field

batting cage

Also, the football field, alone costed $10 mil, was not used for our home games as the seating did not have enough capacity. They are also requiring teachers to have macs, and every single student to have an ipad for class. Simultaneously, they cut:

You think that's bad.. My high school just spent $60 million on our new football stadium. And now everyone's complaining about the shortage of paper and textbooks. Google Allen High football stadium if you think i'm exaggerating

Most high school football programs here in the Midwest don't have a budget big enough to cover a single one of those bullet points, let alone all of them.

When I graduated in 2007, our football budget consisted of maintaining the ~80 sets of pads and equipment, a field with metal bleachers and room for ~3000 fans, and transportation to the away games, none of which were more 50 miles away except the state championship. All the coaches and trainers were unpaid volunteers, some were full-time teachers at the school with a normal class load, some were outside the school.

By charging admission, I'm sure a substantial portion of the budget was paid for, but even by itself, I don't think the total budget exceeded $20,000. That wouldn't even be a down payment on an autoshop.

Agreed. I wrote a pretty substantial essay on it freshman year of college, and ended up reading out loud to the class. I was the only guy in the room who didn't write a paper on how much they love sports.

The assignment had nothing to do with sports, it just happened that everyone wrote about them in some way or another.

We pay for sports instead of these programs, but don't more people end up going into careers based on these trades than they do for sports? We allocate a lot of budget towards sports teams, and odds are a few % of the kids will play in college, and maybe a thousandth of a % go professional. I understand there is more to sports than trying to make a living, but wouldn't it make more sense for a school to sponsor trades that have a higher demand and are much more applicable towards building a career?

Instead of being able to play Football or golf for your school, and having to teach yourself about cars/photography/screen printing/ woodworking, why not do it the other way around?

If you want to learn about these trades, the school can help you. If you want to play sports, do it through private organizations.

just thinking out loud, and yes I played sports in highschool. Track and football

The football program was a source of school pride in our district. They always filtered an excruciating amount of money into it, which caused some of the other programs to be somewhat lacking (which I thought was bullshit because I wanted nothing to do with football).

I may be giving too much credit to school administrators, but it also depends on the economic environment and culture that your school is in. If the school the next town over has a fully equipped metal shop with a foundry (as mine did), there's very little reason for you to spend money on one. From a view somewhat above the "our students deserve the best education available in every field," schools play an important role in making sure a society is well-prepared to function. Every region needs mechanics, but not necessarily every city, since you can always take your car to the next town over to have it fixed (or have it towed there, whatever). If the area you live in thrives on manufacturing (as mine did) then you need a metal shop. However, if you're living in Silicon Valley, teaching teenagers how to run a lathe probably isn't as important as making sure they know how to find the derivative of a polynomial equation.

Yes, having classes available that suit the job market in your area is a good thing.

However, as more and more people realize that handmade goods are often better quality, and better for the environment and economy, and a great way to start businesses (especially with the internet and markets popping up everywhere) then learning to use power tools, build wood and metal items, and the true meaning of working with your hands is not a bad thing. Plus giving children confidence and a sense of accomplishment by making actual things instead of just reciting things from a textbook.

You can learn more about math, science, and biology by learning wood work, making soap, or raising and animal... plus you will be more likely to care about learning it.

Edit: what's more... most people don't have a choice in which school they get to go to. Yes, there is a good school a town over that teaches that, but my children can't go because we don't live in that school district.

This will probably go for just about any subject a person is into honestly. I myself am a computer technician. OMG the intro classes to computing were boring as shit. I'd imagine every subject is boring as hell to someone who is already into that field of study. Now my mom, who knows diddly about computers enjoyed the heck out of that same class.

I think the problem is approach, as always. Biology classes are more interesting when you cut open stuff and grow your cultures.

Instead of a book and class that simply explains the way your car works maybe the class should work backwards. Give the very, most absolute basics and have the children problem solve the rest. It's the approach that worked in our junior high computing class: here is the computer and it's basics, and here is some broken code (though they didn't tell us that) - now type it up and run it. Didn't work? Let's work together on why (or here is the appendix showing the common reasons).

I'm not at all a mechanic, I'm a computer guy (my reply when people ask me car questions). But the fundamentals are basically the same. If I'm taking what I've learned from Click and Clack on the radio, most of being a mechanic is those same problem solving skills.

So I guess, teach problem solving in math and computing (100% necessary classes IMHO) and then offer the automotive class. It doesn't even have to be hands on, computer simulations and other software can replace the actual "shop" class - and without looking I'm willing to bet a lot of this stuff exists already in existing post-high-school training programs. Give those company's a grant or a tax credit to modify (or give) the software to schools and you're all set. If the software doesn't exist there is either a commercial market ready to be exploited if we did something like that or an opportunity for a F/OSS solution to be made.

Just ideas. You don't need to risk getting kids hands stuck in a fan belt to teach them anything. Let them decide to do that on their own where their parents insurance would cover it. Novel idea to re-introduce the basic automotive shop class, but there are a million ways to avoid the liability and costs that the school would have to take up. We just need to invent them for the schools because they won't themselves.

Hell, if done right we can re-energize a generation into putting the American automotive industry on top. When you start with younger minds you get much better amazing ideas instead of the repetition of the old ones.

Maybe it's a nationality thing but we most definitely had an auto shop in my high school. One of the problems with a course like this is where do you fit it into your course schedule? What do you sacrifice to take an entire semester of auto? The course went far beyond basic maintenance like oil and tire pressure, which I think kept quite a few people away from it.

We had one at my high school too. In my senior year we completely rebuilt an old Mini, including engine rebuild (ported head), panel work, complete respray, replacing the interior leather and glass and rewiring the electrics. Took a whole year, but we covered absolutely everything in that class, and by the end of it, each of us knew exactly how to panel beat, paint, etc... basic things were long gone.

It's definitely a class only for enthusiasts... things such as changing a tyre or replacing various fluids could be taught in a day's workshop.

I thought Auto classes were pretty standard in education, they were both Electives from year 7-12 (high school) in both the Catholic private school and the average suburban public school that I went to in Australia.

I didn't take it in favor of electronics and a bunch of other things, but both schools had an auto shop and a bunch of course material for it. I doubt it would cost as much as other electives sometimes do , especially since many of the tools are similar to Metal/Woodwork and it's basically an extension.

That being said, I'm not surprised this isn't taught in America, all of the people I've talked about the education over there seems to say that it's pretty cookiecutter stuff, lots of maths, english and science as opposed to elective focused education.

My high school offered Mechanics/Basic Car Care classes, as well as Autobody, Welding, Basic Machinery, and Carpentry.

If I could go back in time, I most certainly would've taken some of these classes. Unfortunately, there was a stigma attached to these for me because 1) I'm a gal, and the fairer sex virtually never entered these courses, and 2) my friend group was on the University path, and so taking a mechanics class was scoffed at by them. Obviously, I was far too concerned about what others thought.

In my neck of the woods, driving is a true neccessity (200 km+ to the nearest city), and I think that vehicle knowledge and basic care education would be a tremendous asset to everyone here.

Engineering is logic and critical thinking, with math as a subset of those things.

As a programmer, the most intense math I use is the mod operator. Other people have already written things to calculate derivatives and sine waves and such, and I would actually be doing my job poorly if I wrote my own implementation. I need to know how to USE math, but not how to actually DO it.

My high schol actually got rid of the class and replaced it with...Herbology. I recall working on a 72 Nova before they axed it. One reason may be that modern cars are more difficult to work on until you get past the electronics. That's one reason I (and many others) like old, 1960's and 70's cars, they're easier to work on.

Nowadays mechanics seems to be something you take a college course or a specialty school for.

I had feebly hoped that at the end of Harry Potter, Neville would be the champion who slayed Voldemort. IMO, he got a WAY worse deal than Harry. Would you rather your parents were dead and gone, or irreversibly insane?

Yea, but learning basic things like changing a tire, how important oil changes are, recognizing your idiot lights, etc could easily be taught in a one semester course. I think it should be mandatory as part of drivers ed. Not everyone has roadside assistance. I think there was definitely more of a need for it years ago than there is now, but I can still get behind offering a basic class to help out the clueless.

I think all of those things could be learned by a couple google searches or a small packet explaining it. I don't think a whole class is necessary.

Sure these things are important to know, that's why I figured out how to do it myself (and with some help from my dad). Maybe it should be the student's responsibility to learn basic maintenance when they get a car or computer etc. When my parents went through the trouble of getting me a new car, I spent an afternoon sitting in it and reading through the manual where I learned all the maintainence information I needed for my specific car, which is much more efficient than spending a semester learning about it.

Although I do think there should be some more financial lessons in schools. In my middle school we had a class like that and we learned to not spend more than you have and how to write checks. Didn't really help me get college loans ready, which isn't quite as easy to google.

One reason may be that modern cars are more difficult to work on until you get past the electronics.

I think that we're on the other side of this now. When I was in school it absolutely (Mid - late 90's) was a problem. We had someone donate a machine used to diagnose cars - price for it was in the 5-10K neighbourhood - that was never used because no one could figure it out and the teacher was afraid of breaking it.

Now however, students are much more tech savvy, and the cost has come way down. That same machine could conceivably be replaced by $800 worth of hardware and your average 9th grader could figure it out in 30 minutes.

Not everybody is destined for college. This is an idea other countries understand, but America doesn't. Our education system is a one-size-fits-all thing designed to get kids into college, meanwhile so many of us don't go that route. We need plumbers, electricians, carpenters, construction workers, automotive mechanics, and all kinds of other skilled laborers in this country - and there's nothing wrong with that! My father made a living as an automotive mechanic - worked hard, made money, opened his own shop, expanded it, hired employees, created jobs, and retired on what he had built. Considering how many people complain on reddit about not being able to find a job with their liberal arts degree, it seems like having some other marketable skills would be useful. I spent 2 years taking French because I needed it for college. Half the kids in my class were wasting their time - why the hell should somebody who isn't college material learn French? All the kids who won't go to college should have the option to learn something useful - welding, auto mechanics, carpentry, plumbing, electronics, something. Instead, they end up in retail earning minimum wage.

I really hate that i went to college. Its just something i am not taking advantage of and just barely managing to finish after putting it off. Just that in High School they make it seem like actually working with your hands is only for those that are too stupid to go college and is not what you should strive for. I hate it.

I believe it will only get worse. Many people these days not only look down on trades work but are exceedingly lazy. I have quite a few people that complained about being broke and not having a good job so I would tell them about some places that were hiring trades and none of them would apply because they didn't want to get dirty, or work outside, or get sweaty. These people would rather work minimum wage retail instead of making 70-120k/year actually working for it.

The younger someone is the worse it seems to be. Everyone wants to be a manager in IT or something similar. I think that a lot of people who are working jobs they hate could be happy if they had tried themselves out in a trade.

I've been contemplating leaving my IT job to go work a trade. The only thing stopping me is my utter lack of mechanical skills/knowledge.

If I felt like I wouldn't be a miserable failure I'd switch in an instant. I would much rather get an honest pay for honest work than have to spend all my time picking up the slack for people that don't want to have to do their job.

Depending on how comfortable your living situation I would say either save money and goto a trade school for a pre employment course. Around here they are maybe 5k max for one year and you are very hirable as an apprentice once you are done.

The other route is to apply for entry level openings as a labourer or helper and work your way up from the bottom. Little bit longer but no outlay of cash for school.

Also realize that different trades have different pay and lifestyles. You might want to try stuff around the house first to see what you like. The slow methodical attention to detail of cabinet making/finishing? The thinking and planning and safety of electrical? Getting dirty and working on big loud noisy fun things doing heavy duty repair?

Find some DIY projects to work on by yourself. Get a basic tool kit. Fix/improve your car or bike. Build a shelf. Try and rebuild your toilet. If you have the room by an old lawnmower/ATV/ car and fix it up. The best part about a lot of trades is once you learn the theory it transfers well. Once you learn how to turn a wrench on lawnmowers you have a foot in the door for heavy duty,oilfield, mining etc.

If you are a quick learner and have a good work ethic (the big thing in trades!) then you will be just fine.

My husband is a diesel mechanic and makes $100K per year, plus whatever side jobs he gets. He works very hard and is very good at what he does. So so proud of him (also very sexy to watch a man work hard like that). :)

As someone who worked one of those blue collar jobs making low six figures and then transitioning to IT- some of these bastards I work around as their boss should be fired and sent to a similar job to give them a taste of real work.

fuck, pounding my fingers on a keyboard is hell of a lot nicer than operating a crane or a bit cat but fuck all of these lazy fucks can't stand "moving a monitor because it's too heavy".

I believe that 80% of the things you learn in HS are instantly forgotten after you're finished. You hold on to the core lessons but most of it becomes irrelevant to the remainder of your life and you will never need it again.

What incredibly important life skills that should be taught in high school are:

Understanding politics

Owning and maintaining a car

Preparing for college/university

Getting a job

Paying taxes

Paying rent

Owning a home

Basic law/your rights

Managing credit

Relationships/marriage/divorce

Raising offspring

First aid/handling emergencies

Etc.

All of these things are not taught properly in school. These things are relevant to everybody and are core parts of life. Kids finish school and get thrown out into the real world and expected to just know all these things. I find this ridiculous. There needs to be a "Core life skills" class that is compulsory for everyone in high school to take for schools entire duration. It will prepare kids for all these things and have students ready for the real world when they get there.

Most of the classes in HS are basic taste-testers of certain fields of possible work that helps students find the direction they are interested in. But the life skills I mentioned need to be taught as well, perhaps in a class of their own, as a single "Life skills, and how to live as an independent adult" class. These things need to be implemented in the education system to properly prepare young people for the real world.

I don't get why people don't understand this. High school is purely an academic challenge. It's not a life skills school. It's to learn how to learn. The parents are responsible for raising well-adjusted young adults that can function in the real world, not the schools.

"Now we see here the feral internet child. He talks in a series of overused memes, grunts, and curses, many referencing sexual preference or sexual acts. It will remain motionless for hours at a time, save for its hands which are always moving and typing.

This creature lives to pleasure itself, and is one of the few creatures in the world which knows how to initiate self pleasure. In fact, it participates in the act more than any other known creature in any kingdom. Sometimes up to 3 times a day it opens multiple "tabs" and chooses a "mate". Fascinating

Oh look! Something has caught his attention! He is enamored with the object and will cherish dearly for 30 seconds until he finds a new one. Once he begins the transition from object to object, he will beat the first one into the ground "for teh lulz". A cruel and effective method for passing on information to others of its kind.

Yeah, but that's the problem. It's not just run down city schools that have kids from bad backgrounds, there's plenty of families that are incapable of teaching their own children, be it because the parents are neglectful, out of touch with reality, struggling/misunderstanding the system themselves, etc. I'd be willing to guess that a large chunk of people in any given high school will not be taught useful life skills by their parents.

Source: Kid from a middle class, emotionally healthy family who got passed back and forth a lot during high school and went through several of his moms divorces. Never learned ANYTHING about taxes, rent, utilities, getting a job, etc. Made terrible decisions, jumped around majors and got in debt. I'm good now, but it was a trial by fire to be sure.

(Also I realize you've probably already considered this, just using your comment as a soapbox)

I'll definitely agree that it's a serious problem. There are A LOT of kids that don't have families that are capable of teaching these skills. But what is the solution? We already have kids in the classroom for 6 or 7 hours a day and they don't learn enough. We could extend schooling to go year round but that raises all sorts of problems. Kids can no longer have summer jobs. It'll probably double the cost of education to keep the schools open longer (AC during the summer, paying teachers more, hiring new teachers, extending benefits, other utlity costs, bus drivers year round, etc).

The line between state responsibility and family/community responsiblity as to be drawn somewhere. It was decided that most efficient point (lowest cost, most learning) made school purely an academic endeavor.

It's not that I don't agree with you. I do. But how do you make that happen?

As a non-American may I ask how long your summer holidays go for? I've never actually figured out how the American schooling system works, so if you don't mind, would you be able give a quick rundown on how it works?

In my country school goes all year round, and as far as I've seen there's no major problem to this. Mind you we do get regular holidays during the year.

The summer holidays are about three months. My understanding is that it stems from our agricultural roots, when most kids would need to return to their family's farm for the summer to help with the work. I could be totally wrong on that, though. These days it's pretty much vacation, although a lot of kids get jobs in that time. As a college student it's pretty much internship season for me.

May I ask what country you're from? How long are your school days, and how many school days do you get in the year? Here, I think it's pretty universal that 180 days per year is the standard school year.

I'm an Australian, school day at my school is from about 9:00 until 3:30, as for days in the school year I'm not 100% certain it equates to a out 40 weeks I believe. The school year starts on the 1st of February give or take a few days, and ends early December, about a week before Christmas. Holiday wise we get 6 weeks off over Christmas (2 weeks in December, and most of January) after that we get 2 weeks holidays every 9-11 weeks. This is for the public school system (government funded) private schools generally get longer holidays.

Most kids have enough time to have a part-time job after school, and on weekends, depending on sport and other hobby requirements.

The typical school year in California starts in the last week of August and ends in mid-June. We get two weeks off across Christmas and New Year's, a week off in February and another week in April, plus a day or two here and there for various other holidays. Thanksgiving break usually starts that Wednesday (Thanksgiving is always the third Thursday in November).

Parents, as an aggregate, have proven incapable of teaching these things. Mine did, but so many don't. That said I understand your point, and it has its merits. There are tons of schools where the majority of kids won't ever need to learn about academic subjects, and they would be better served with a wider array of basic life skills.

Ex. Sub-prime mortage lenders are able to take advantage of a lot of people who don't know about he home-buying process. Wells Fargo paid huge settlement for steering minorities into higher-interest loans. The honus is on both parties however. If you know your credit is good, these people should have thought why the fuck am I getting a sub-prime rate.

For people who aren't working in Academia, knowing this would have been a lot more helpful then reading "The Great Gatsby."

Not to mention the fact that every single one of those subjects differs from locality to locality. Maintaining a car is very different from state to state; renter laws are different; taxes are different (since some states have state tax and some do not, some cities have income tax and some do not); property ownership varies WIDELY.

These thing would help someone as long as they NEVER MOVED from their home state (assuming the US).

I mean, these are ALL reasons why lawyers have to pass a the Bar in each state they want to hold a practice, because the majority of those things are intricate and variable.

I had some classes that had resumés and interview skills as part of them, but they were very much geared toward blue collar workers rather than white collar jobs.

There is so much variance in the world that it is NECESSARY to learn how to think -- and if people thought about high school in this way they would face fewer problems in life. Because if you know how to think, none of those "skills" that jqrd4n thinks should be taught need to be taught.

Sorry the fact that so many people are awful writers and can't do basic math anymore is the reason why we need to devote more resoucres to academics. You teach kids critical thinking so they can go ahead and learn how to do the life skills you talked about. If students are too uneducated to do some basic things do you really think they'll get managing credit?

This isn't what high school is about. You are describing what parents need to do for their children. School is never there to prepare you for the world like that. School is there to extend your problem solving capabilities and to increase your comprehension of things.

School is there for the sake of knowledge... To increase your knowledge and to make your mind ready for more incoming knowledge.

For instance, people think they go to medical school to become a doctor. That's not the case. In reality, you are going to medical school to learn HOW to be a doctor.

Except that I would also forget what I learned about cars. Also, English/Math/Physics are things that I use or come across everyday. More than a casual knowledge about cars only helps in certain instances that I'd rather have an expert take care of. Many people say you should know how to change your oil. I really don't [need to know how]. I just need to know that I SHOULD change the oil and rotate the tires. That's more of a "take care of things you own" mentality than a "take care of your car" mentality. A person who doesn't bother to ask what are the minimum maintenance requirements of a car aren't the type to do it even if they knew.

Mechanics can rip you off the same way any person in a situation with knowledge imbalance can rip you off. The answer isn't necessarily to be knowledgeable in all these areas. It might simply be more time and cost effective to pay the extra cost, or enlist the help of a more informed friend to help deal with the knowledge imbalance. In addition, a lot of people don't even own cars or need to know how to maintain one. I live in NYC and the only cars I am in charge of are rental cars.

EDIT: There was some confusion over my original statement. I meant I don't need to know how to change my oil, not that I don't change my oil. I would just pay someone.

Kids finish school and get thrown out into the real world and expected to just know all these things.

My immediate reaction was that it should be the parents' job to teach kids these things, so it needn't be taught in school. However, these issues are so important that we shouldn't penalize those whose parents don't teach them, so I agree.

Where is the line drawn? When is it a school's responsibility and when is it the parents' responsibility? I mean, tying your shoes, brushing your teeth - we'd all imagine we need parents or family to teach these at a young age.

So where does it become the responsibility of the education system? Taxes? Money management? Parking? Grocery shopping? What can we reasonably expect schools to teach?

Schools aren't the only source of education and putting more of a burden there isn't realistic. Curriculum has to evolve, certainly. But into what, and why?

Basic money management (such as furniture, rent, food, utilities, owning a home) was taught for a month in my middle school social studies class. Also I took accounting senior year of high school but that was mostly because I didn't want to take calculus or statistics. I knew I wasn't going to continue my math education.

Not sure I regret that or not. But there you go, its offered but status quo and competitive nature of schooling.

All of these things were taught in my school our senior year. I don't remember what it was called but you had to pass every class to graduate (Car Care, Home Economics, Financing, College Prep.) All of these classes were a breeze but you could really see people struggle who had no clue about real life. I think they were great classes for most of my peers but a total waste for me.

There needs to be a "Core life skills" class that is compulsory for everyone in high school to take for schools entire duration.

Oh fuck that. Perhaps the option should be there, but you just consigned a ton of people who are smart enough to figure out the, frankly, not at all difficult Form 1040 to four years of absolute tedium, as they bounce from AP Calc to "paying rent."

College Prep class/time period was done each TA (teacher advising) section once a month starting your junior year. Plus every class had one mandatory college prep session most classes did more.
We also had 10 to 15 staff members that could assist us during a non scheduled time period, all we had to do was ask them ahead of time.

We had multiple shop class, small engines,home building, (they built a car one year in one of them) CAD classes, electronics, (none of these were required, but you could take them to count towards the general credit you needed to graduate.

My school was the only high school in a smaller Midwest town, not inner city but it's not like we were rich by any means of the word.

I took a math class in highschool and it taught us how to file our own taxes, figure out our own car insurance, balance a budget with bills etc. I learned more in that than more traditional math courses.

I believe that 80% of the things you learn in HS are instantly forgotten after you're finished. You hold on to the core lessons but most of it becomes irrelevant to the remainder of your life and you will never need it again.

I think you mean that none of these things were taught in YOUR school. I took at least two semesters of basic career management/personal finance classes in high school, both in my freshman and junior years; both were required to graduate.

Went to college cause everyone told me to, did a Criminal Justice degree cause i just wanted to be a cop, but no one told me its a stupid degree. Now i wasted 4 years of my life for nothing, and ive been doing shit since i graduated back in may... Should have done 4 years in the military instead since the NYPD is mostly looking at veterans...

Now everyone is saying i should go back to college again and major in something else.

Upon graduating and finding myself with no job, I went down to my local Air Force recruiting office to see if I could apply to be an intelligence analyst. I figured that my political science degree would give me a leg up on the competition. The recruiter said that normally it would, but because of the recession so many people were applying for these officer positions that somebody out of college would have a better chance going through basic grunt training, and then become an officer 3 years down the line. Just some food for thought.

I'd rather HS teach critical thinking and practical reasoning. Then you'll be able to figure out how much auto knowledge you need to learn on your own. Personal financial management would also be good.

I think these things because it will make all of society better at the same time it's making the individual better. Just because it's not the traditional role of formal school to teach these things doesn't mean it shouldn't be.

I am also a mechanic, but I don't like to screw people over. I actually wouldn't mind teaching a highschool auto tech class, in fact I'm actually seriously concidering doing this as its really slow in my small hometown. I could probably make more money! My auto tech teacher was a boring idiot, who didn't know what the fuck he was doing, so I would like to be that cool favorite teacher which he kids love to come to his class!

I have thought about this, my mother told me about "pink wrench" classes that she heard about for single women to learn automotive basics like changing a flat, checking oil, etc. I love it when people ask me about cars, I like to teach.

I ran a garage for about a decade and the owner of the shop (AKA my lead tech) offered a Car Care Class that was $15-$50 and all the proceeds wen to something awesome, like keeping music classes in the local high school or some other good cause. We gained customers this way, got a well-deserved good reputation, and had more knowledgeable customers that took better care of their cars. Even though we didn't make a profit from the classes themselves, they paid off big time.

One of my favorite parts of the class was the Rusty Rotor demonstration to teach people to exercise their cars and not let them sit. At the start of the class he would spray a brand new brake rotor with water and by the end of the class it would be coated in a light layer of rust.

Might make your job easier if people aren't coming in and saying "Well when I do X it makes a noise like SDHFHECIUNJKDHCIUHVCIEQCNREHFCIEUNCIUEWQNHCIUEWVIUEWNEHWINHVIEUWIEWNHVIREWUNJVIUREWLV can you fix that?"

Also, you can teach someone how a car works and how to theoretically fix it, but you are still going to need tools. Also, a lot of "simple repairs" end up being a PITA. Stuck and broken fasteners. Stuck and broken fasteners everywhere. There is usually a reason we charge for labor.

Because Internet, thats why. Today it is simple to check car problems, their reasons and costs of repair. You can't learn everything in school, but I think more basics in economy is necessary when I hear people talk about it. Most people think they are experts in this topic and ignorant to other points of view (I won't totally exclude myself from this behavior)

I used to work in a shop, and I LOVED people who learned to work the Google on the internet machine.

They'd come in for a belt replacement and get mad when I told them it was a 3 hour job because when they looked it up the internet said it should be cheap!!! and then they'd leave.

In a car with a reasonable engine configuration and a little space, replacing a serpentine is a fast job. Your car has a transverse engine mounted under 9 pounds of shit a millimeter from the edge of the engine bay. It's going to take a while.

The moral is: if you're going to ~do your research~ make sure you aren't shit at doing research.

You have to be very specific with your research, of course. But even if you are mistaken, you have a basic on which the mechanic has to explin the pricing to you. The in general cheapest shops are those who try to fool you, but if you know how to deal with them you can save some money.

Honestly cars at this point are so complicated this class would be almost impossible to teach and have it have any lasting impact. To quote my father "The difference between fixing a car now and fixing a car in the 70's that was when you dropped a wrench in an engine in the 70's you got the wrench out from under the car, now you go buy a new wrench" The sheer amount of stuff they have packed under the hood is amazing and it changes drastically and that's just for a normal gas engine, not even considering diesel and hybrid engines. Anything taught in high school would then be obsolete in about 10-20 years because engine technology is changing so rapidly.

I've been helping my Dad work on cars for a number of years and my best way to make it so mechanics don't rip me off is to follow the advice my father gave me. "Ask the mechanic to explain to you in plain english why a certain thing needs to be fixed, if they can't do it take it to a different mechanic" This advice has never steered me wrong.

Edit: Realized when I am referring to an engine I am not referring to the actual engine or engine block, I am referring to the totality of what is under the hood.

No it's DIY if you already have the equipment, the space to do it in and feel 100% confident about your car. My old car was such a royal bitch to change the oil, tire changes are a royal pain in the ass / mildly dangerous unless you have the proper equipment and jacks and all of the tuneup stuff requires tools. This stuff is not cheap and not something people want to deal with on a day to day basis. You are correct in that people should be smart enough to take their car in for trouble codes but that doesn't need to be taught in a formal class, if anything it should be mentioned real quick during drivers ed.

If you are going to do 100% of everything then why don't we also teach courses on plumbing, electrical work, construction, computers pretty much everything. Because most people don't want to do it and high school is not the place to force people to learn absolutely everything, high school should teach people to be smart enough to google stuff if it sounds like their mechanic is talking out of their ass.

Agreed. I try to only buy cars that are rear wheel drive also, more room to manuever under the hood. Unless its a 94-02 camaro/firebird where the back 2 cylinders are under the dash. I hated when my friends with them would say its spark plug changing time. I did enjoy the beer though.

At the risk of sounding like a neck beard I feel I should point some things out here.

Fuel injection is still fuel injection.

It has changed immensely in the last 20 years. In it's beginnings it was a fairly crude mechanical system not much more refined than the carburetors it sought to replace. After they became electrical injectors they were much more refined but still had their limitations, now cars are more and more being fitted with Direct Injection which is much more precise allowing better emissions and performance than standard Port Injection.

computers influence more than they did in the past, but they are still passive systems

They are very active in today's cars, the Engine Computer is actively controlling the engine, many electronic systems are actively working to keep the car operating properly and helping the driver to maintain control (stability control is, by definition, and active safety system)

Car's have changed more in the last 20 years than they have in the rest of their existence. And, while they certainly try to make the plastic covers on the engine look nice they aren't for vanity. Mostly they are for sound deadening and thermal control (hot engine is not good for paint on hood) The bean counters wouldn't allow putting things on a car that don't serve a practical purpose.

Because you shouldn't rely on a high school to teach you everything you'll ever need to know. Own a car? Do some research on your own. You do NOT need a high school class to learn about your car. Anyone who doesn't take the effort to learn about their purchases gets what's coming to them. Don't blame the schools, blame the people who don't take the time to research. You don't have to worry about budgetary restrictions if you seek out the knowledge yourself, unless you're applying for a course at the local community college (for the areas that have them).

I actually went to a public high school that offered elective courses in plumbing, small engine design, and auto maintenance. They were pretty popular, if I recall, and taught by one of the best teachers I had prior to college (Mr. Estelow, who was in his 42nd year at the school when I had him). I took the small engine course, and nearly a decade later I could still strip down, clean/replace parts, and reassemble a lawn mower engine in a pinch. I'm assuming people who took the car maintenance class would be able diagnose basic problems and make repairs as well.

It was really great, but I would imagine the reason more schools don't offer it is that program like this are deemed superfluous and too expensive. In addition to needing a full-time teacher with salary/benefits etc., you need a lot of space, tools, and supplies. We had a big auto garage and a large parking lot where tens of thousands of dollars worth of cars and equipment were stored. I went to school in fairly well-off NJ suburb, but lots of districts simply don't have the extra resources for these kinds of programs.

My buddy is a locksmith that deals mostly with lost car keys and keys locked inside cars. He responded to a call once where someone had locked their keys inside their Jeep Wrangler. He unzipped the window, crawled in, got they keys, and still had to charge her the 100$ service charge. It is sad how little people know about the cars they drive every day.

A class teaching people how to not get ripped off. Lack of hands-on automotive knowledge isn't the problem here - if anything giving them a little knowledge will just make them wrongly believe they are being ripped off and irritate/offend more completely legitimate, fair automotive technicians.

Many people in many industries are going to run you through the wringer if you let them. It's not unique to automotive work, or even more common in automotive work.

It shouldn't be taught in school, it should be taught in your driving lessons. In Switzerland, where I got my license, I was taught all the basics such as changing a flat, checking oil, air pressure, cooling etc etc.. It's much more appropriate than to teach it in high school.

I work IT in a professional office. We have hundreds of people who user a computer as their primary tool of business and don't have any clue how they work.

The real answer lies in opportunity cost. It is not worth their time to put effort into learning about their computer (or car). Paying a premium because they were ripped off really is of less cost than the time they would spend learning whatever.

I have never taken advantage of a customer. I've had them bring in their own parts, I've told them that it wouldn't fix the problem, and they've had me put them on anyways.

Most people have no clue how mechanics get paid. It's setup to FUCK everyone but the dealership. We get paid by the job. Examples: an oil change pays 4/10th's of an hour. A brake job pays 1.8 hours. They charge you $100+ an hour and the tech might get paid $30 (most of the time they are paid less than $20) at the most. We have a labor guide that tells us how much to charge. Some times it is wrong, most of the time it is wrong in the customers favor, sometime there are short cuts, but rarely. It never includes time for breaking stuff, cleaning shit up, test driving, etc.

Manufacturers warranty times are horrible. To calculate the time it takes to do a job, they have a guy do it 10x, and average it out. He has all the tools right there, doesn't have to diagnose it, doesn't have to get the parts, doesn't have to drive the vehicle in his stall, doesn't have to cleanup any fluids he may spill. I don't know what we did to piss them off, but it goes both ways. If I can find a way to fuck the car maker, I will fuck them. I have no remorse and I don't care if I get caught.

I know how all of those things work. They're not terribly difficult to figure out once you know the basic principles. Then it's just a matter of figuring out what went wrong.

For instance: One day my washer wouldn't drain or spin. So I did a Google search and found out that there's one big transmission that does both the spinning of the drum and the pumping and that might have gotten jammed. I disassembled the washer, pulled off the drain pump, and found a sock jamming it.

This was my line of thinking as well. I'm not sure what OP really expects. I know how a car works and most of the parts (classic parts like manifold, pistons, carb, etc.), but I STILL don't know if a mechanic is screwing me over. Maybe I need new spark plugs and maybe he's just looking to make an extra $100. Just because I know what spark plugs are and what they do doesn't mean I necessarily know when they are going bad.

I disagree. But maybe because I grew up with fuel injection and computerized engine maps. I'd have no clue if I were faced with a carbeurated engine (more or less) but I'm comfortable with fuel injection and all the emissions controls and things that have been creeping into cars lately (coil on plug/distributorless ignition, gasoline direct injection, etc.). That and they cover the engine with plastic covers.

A $20 OBD-2 adapter can get you reading all your computer's fault codes and real time data onto a laptop or smartphone. Then it's back to the basic mechanics of changing and replacing or cleaning parts.

Newer cars always seem more complex than the last. Your 50's and 60's engines were probably having the carriage-driving grandparents scratching their heads. But once you crack open the hood and get your hands dirty, things start to fall in place.

You have a good point; if it wasn't for my dad, my sister would never get the oil changed in her car. I grew up working on cars with my dad, so I'm not really one to identify 'the basics', I don't put much thought to it. But I was impressed when my 16y/o niece and her friend changed a flat tire.

My high school offered it and I took two levels of it. I always try to fix the problem myself first and have never paid for an oil change or tire change. However, without thousands of dollars of equipment and extensive knowledge of the trade you can't do 90% of the work your car needs under the hood.

Diagnosis of a car all ones and zeros. I work on cars as a hobby and because I'm poor and don't want to pay some bloke 80 bucks an hour to fix my car. Especially when not everything is straight forwards with repairing cars. IE: Sometimes fixing one thing can break something else that was already weak but now that something else is fixed it is now being strained more. People hate hearing that they car broke, was fixed, and broke soon there after because of another part that they for some reason neglected.

Complexity of all the systems in a car. Think of all the independent systems that run in a car. Stereo system which is comprised of a deck, 4-12 speakers depending on the model of car, an amp sometimes, and then TONS OF FRIGGING WIRING. That's one system with all those failure points. Now there's the steering which is usually made up of the mechanical steering column and U joints along with a liquid power assist connected to some joints that go bad often. So now you have all those things to fail and learn about how they work. We aren't even to the suspension, engine, tranny, exterior, interior, wiring/electrical, fuel delivery, engine management, a/c system, charging system, environmental things to keep stuff clean, engine cooling system, and now in newer cars.... blue tooth devices, LCD displays, extra sensors like tire pressure, windshield washer level indicator, blah blah blah. Try teaching all that to some kids in High School. Most won't give two craps about it because there's a lot of things going on in there.

People don't understand what kind of real riggers a car goes through because they don't think about it and there for don't really care how their car works. Let's face it. The engine in it's most simple form is controlled explosions. CONTROLLED FRIGGING EXPLOSIONS. Think about that for 2 seconds people. Holy crap. Then let's think about how many of these explosions are happening every second. It's a damn marvel how engine (metal against metal) last so long. Oil is a damn miracle liquid.

Priorities. Learning about cars takes a long time and most people don't own enough tools to work on their cars. More and more people are owning apartments and places where working on cars is prohibited so even if they did learn and spent the hundreds of dollars on some starter tools they still couldn't do it. They would much rather do the things they like to do. It's chosen ignorance.

People getting taken advantage of is going to happen anywhere where there are bad people but I genuinely think most mechanics are honestly trying to help. Look at it from their point of view. People usually don't bring their cars in UNTIL something breaks. With that in mind if they see anything in there that is worn they are probably going to tell you. On top of this your mechanic is already at the point where that part would be easier to replace while he's already in there. If you start fixing your own car you'll get into the same way mechanics think too. Example: Replacing tie rod ends on a 10 year old vehicle. You will probably want to get the tie rod boots while in there as those will probably tear soon, resulting in having to go back and undo those tie rod ends that were just put on to get to the boots. Now you are up another 40 bucks from your original repair plus the mechanics time. That's just one example. If we go with engine internals it gets even more expensive. Getting some oil coming out of your exhaust? Let's just say it's caused by leaking valve stem seals. Those are SUPER CHEAP. Ya know what's not though that should probably be replace while in there? Valve springs (mileage depending), lifters, have the head resurfaced/checked for flatness, and you might as well have the valve seats checked and replace if need be while the head is off the car. Pretty much rebuilding the whole head just beacuse some valve stem seals are bad but if you tell your mechanic to just do the seals then you get no sympathy from me.

TLDR: People are lazy and choose ignorance over the vast amount of time it'd take to learn about cars to not get ripped off by a mechanic.