L.E.G. just got done with our Rule 5 draft and I demoted a young player to AAA as is very, very common in MLB and players do fine.. I posted this in chat there, to warn the gentlemen:

BEWARE - the STINKING Perma-Penalties are already in effect. Witness: Leonardo Timlin . This is the stupidest, most senseless, customer abusive feature in HBD.

Poor Leonardo. He will never be the same -- never develop at the same pace. Post Traumatic Demotion Disorder has seized his little psyche. Who knew that expert major league general managers are so stupid -- sending a player down "to get more playing time and focused coaching and improve." Why do they earn the big bucks, when WIS knows better?

SMH....

Something's not letting me use the WIS forums clipboard to put his "card" in. Here is his link:

(And no, I don't give a rip that he doesn't have high numbers for Patience or Makeup. It's just stupid that the IMPROVEMENT is slow to nonexistent, if I would bring him back up to the big league team.)

I would appreciate, when you return and claim "The trolls are at work again", if you would note that I did not scoff or make sport of you. I simply reiterated the same point I made 8 months ago when you started the same thread.

Posted by ArlenWilliam on 2/22/2013 12:11:00 AM (view original):(And no, I don't give a rip that he doesn't have high numbers for Patience or Makeup. It's just stupid that the IMPROVEMENT is slow to nonexistent, if I would bring him back up to the big league team.)

But aren't patience and makeup entirely relevant to this topic? Your guy isn't particularly patient and his makeup isn't great; he apparently believes he should be in the Big Leagues, and he took it personally when you demoted him to make room for a Rule 5 guy.

This happens in real life. Todd Frazier sulked last season when the Reds demoted him at the last minute to make room for a waiver wire pitcher, and he played like crap in Triple A. The Reds nearly ruined Homer Bailey by bringing him up too early and then shuttling him back and forth to Louisville. I never, ever demote minor league guys unless they have no shot at the majors and I have a glaring need at a lower level, and I generally wait to demote players from the 25-man roster until I have a guy coming off the DL or I make a trade to improve my ML team. I don't demote players to "get their attention" or give them "more seasoning" because that's not how this game works. You seem to think it does, or should.

The way it works now, demotion penalty is one of the silliest parts of HBD. Makes no sense. I'm not sure exactly what anyone was thinking when they thought of it and wrote the code.

In MLB, the 40 man roster is the 25 man roster with restrictions. Options, waivers, minimum # of days at a level before a player can be moved again (I think injury moves override that, but I'm no 100% sure). Every season most MLB teams have 1 or 2 players they bring up & down many times. Sometimes to start a single game.

HBD could have additional restrictions or different penalties for repeated demotions & roster moves. But a permanent loss of a physical skill is just silly.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/5/2011 6:37:00 PM (view original):
One more time.

Without demotion penalties, some that are permanent, smart owners will use their 40 man roster as their 25 man roster. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

Theo Epstein regularly says that he thinks of his big league roster as the 40 man, not the 25 man.

I've heard him say that at least a half-dozen times.

Not that that's the end of the discussion, but I don't really see the problem with using the whole 40 to get through the season. Gives an advantage to those that think a little more deeply about their team.

He may say that but his roster doesn't play that way. As of today, it looks more like a 22 man roster.

Nonetheless, I look at my roster as about a 45-47 man roster. By that, I mean I usually have about 20 players I wouldn't mind using in the BL at some point. Given the freedom to do so, with no penalties, I'd have about a 60 man roster. Those 30 DUR catchers who can rake and lights out 31/18 DUR/STM pitchers become quite usuable. Bring 'em up, wear 'em out, send 'em down. Deactivate them in AAA until they recover and repeat the process. MLB doesn't play that way. I'd say MLB has about 28-30 players on their "active" roster. When a player hits the DL, someone is called up. When the injured player is ready to go, he's put back on the roster and someone is sent down. If a staff is beat, a pitcher is called up for one start and sent back down. It wouldn't work like that in HBD. The 25 man roster would become a revolving roster that would include daily promotions/demotions. Fatigue wouldn't exist. Is that what we want?

Mike - You've done that thing you do. Propose something near ridiculous that nobody is proposing. Then you argue against that. Somehow making you think you're making a point.

Who's proposed that there should a system that allows endless promotions and demotions without any sort of penalty? Only you. So you could then argue against that.

You've left a lot of reality out of your point. We all might have 20 players in the MinL we could maybe use in some way in the ML, but because of the way the arbitration system works in HBD, we're not likely to bring up prospects and eat up the less expensive pre-arbitration games before very good prospects are mostly developed. So that drops the pool of 20 down by some.

How about if the action of promotion and maybe demotion were very tiring. Fatigue hit worth maybe 5-10 games for a pos player and setting Ps to 0 or close to it. That's a temporary penalty that would prevent bouncing players. Not a permanent loss of skills. Would require planning ahead a little to bring up a P for 1 game. And this could be greatly reduced, or eliminated if promotion was an injury replacement.

How about a minimum number of games a player has to stay at a level? I think we have that already but I'm not sure.

There could be organizational penalties if that GM stuck with the team. Arb players would ask for more money after a certain number of moves. FA's wont' resign after a certain number of moves. GM leaves that team and a new one takes over, that's all wiped out, so new GMs don't pay for what someone did before them.

IntFAs won't sign with a team that makes too many moves, because the GM has a bad reputation. Easy to do. They don't appear.

FAs demand 5%, 10%, etc. more depending on how often players are brought up & down. Same reason - reputation for treating players badly.

Rating hit only for the current team. Player is cut, FA, etc., they get the points back.

Probably more ideas than this. Probably at least one better idea than these. Pretty much anything is better than the exact way it works now.

If you demote before ST, no penalty. But one day after, risk big penalty. Silly.

I agree with Arlen that the demotion penalty isn't realistic, and it deprives owners of making a pretty common move in real MLB. The real shame is that the ongoing argument has to made with Mike instead of someone from WIS whose arguments would more likely reflect what their thoughts really are, not what Mike thinks they might be.

pb, if you're honest with yourself, you know every good owner in HBD would have a rotating 40 man BL roster. It's just a fact. Doesn't matter if I say it or WifS says it. It's true. As for how common it is, look at BL teams in June. You won't see 38 players with BL action unless a team has been devastated by injury. You might see 28-30.

How is it not realistic that some....and not even close to the percentage I would expect....see a decline in ratings?

You're already benefitting from an injury rate that is ~25% of the actual MLB injury rate, probably because the powers that be dreaded (and correctly so) the amount of incessant snivelling it would generate. Now you want (and Mike is 100% correct) a 40 man MLB roster, 25 active, 15 inactive.

What is customer abusive is that the players do not make up for it. There is no correspondingly normal re-development,nor any escalated development for a player being promoted back to the big league team. That is ludicrous.

WIS inhibits our play and enjoyment of this game and makes it so we are prone to do less moving of players then actual MLB GM's.