Kata, its become nothing more than a dance!

Looking at all the kata on YouTube, etc. All I can see is Oriental Dance, all the Kata has been changed and amended so much its a far distant cousin of the original form. Take Bassai, there are 36 official versions of the Kata, all claiming to be the correct one or the oldest one.

Shotokan and the JKA have formalised most of the Kata for competition and therefore unless you know what style they're almost identical, then you get the small dojo's that have been out of the loop so long their kata doesn't even look like the style they're supposed to be.

So I am of the opinion that Traditional Kata is for Traditional times. And like Ashihara Kancho and Ninomiya Kancho and others who've created modern Jissen Kata (seriously no sports kata is included as I think Freestyle Kata is .....) is the way forward for this day and age.

Or...we could stop competing with "dance" or "sport" kata and just train in traditional kata that we research and source as close to the originals we can.

Understanding of course that we will never have access to the "first" or "pure" kata, but we do have excellent examples of kata as they were practiced as close to the 1900's as possible. There are many teachers practicing those kata. They are still around. In every style. We can train those kata, pragmatically, and spread them to the four winds.

That was my mission over the last couple years. I am happy with what I found and the people that have helped me. They are out there. No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I train every week at a Shotokan dojo and I don't do "Shotokan approved" kata. I can, but I don't. I have the luxury of being able to train in the versions of the kata that I have found. And it's not that far removed, just small differences. But they make a big impact.

The point, traditional kata are not for traditional times. There's no reason to throw them out. The valued kata that were around as karate left Okinawa are still there. You just have to search for them. No reason to give up and throw out anything.

Take Bassai, there are 36 official versions of the Kata, all claiming to be the correct one or the oldest one.

To paraphrase Dave Turton, “It does not matter what colour the cat is so long as it kills mice”.

There have been different versions of kata right from the beginning. The idea that only one kata is right is “contaminated thinking” from the relatively modern practise of kata without application: we can’t measure by effect so we measure by an arbitrary standard set by a given style or group. What does it matter how many versions of a kata there is so long as each version can be shown to be applied effectively within the groups that emphasise that particular version.

Black Tiger wrote:

All I can see is Oriental Dance

Most here see something different.

Black Tiger wrote:

So I am of the opinion that Traditional Kata is for Traditional times.

Conversely, I’m of the view that the kata are entirely relevant to modern times and I think there are a huge amount of people out there who can demonstrate that is the case.

Black Tiger wrote:

I think Freestyle Kata is .....) is the way forward for this day and age.

Some people delve deep into traditional kata, some develop new kata, some abandon kata all together. Each to their own as each approach can be entirely valid. In the information age we all have the ability to put forward our own views and people will buy into the thinking they feel best.

Thanks for the response Iain but the full quote regards "freestyle kata is translated to "the worst thing ever" the freestyle Kata competitions including "muscial tosh is way way against all my principles. I was trying to be PC with the "....)"

Amongst others and this is what lead me to continue with Traditional Kata BUT where do I learn this from.

Attend courses - BUT they cost money, I teach in a not for profit Club, I've never claimed a salary ever, I'm not rich so who's paying?

Ask your Instructor - I don't have one and if I did join a traditional Dojo, how many years would it take for me to be at the same level as I am now (as I would have to wear a white belt again and "suck eggs" for 3-4 years). I'm not interested in learning the Pinan/Heian forms or any of the lower forms as I only want 1 or 2 Forms to my arsenal that's it.

I guess it is time to charge some money to be able to cope with the upcoming costs of seminar fees.

I teach at a university and the university pays a little bit (a couple of hundred euros a year) which totally covers my karate expenses. I can attend seminars, buy a little bit of equipment and further my private karate library.

I am a Shotokan practitioner and I orientate myself on the Shotokan Kata but I also look for other versions of a particular Kata when I came up with a new application to figure out if it is in the framework of that Kata.

Are they standartized for competition... Sure but they are not that heavily changed in my eyes.

I guess it is time to charge some money to be able to cope with the upcoming costs of seminar fees.

I teach at a university and the university pays a little bit (a couple of hundred euros a year) which totally covers my karate expenses. I can attend seminars, buy a little bit of equipment and further my private karate library.

I am a Shotokan practitioner and I orientate myself on the Shotokan Kata but I also look for other versions of a particular Kata when I came up with a new application to figure out if it is in the framework of that Kata.

Are they standartized for competition... Sure but they are not that heavily changed in my eyes.

Regards Holger

I practice Ashihara Karate so we have our own well versed kata that is practiced and pplied to daily usage. So I wanted something to "keep" form my Traditional years but not wanting to regrade etc all the way through to get there.

The Ashihara kata We use works from basic striking stand up grappling and groundwork so they are allround are are listed as Jissen Kata in Japan. So regards to useable Kata I have 8 Jissen Kata already, so the traditional Kata would be "Bolt on" to this system not instead of. Its my choice of Traditional Kata that is whether Do I need them or not?

And many of the Dojos do a "Sports" Bunkai for many of the kata which is to win competitions for medals, from "Karate attacks"

The likes of Toon Ryu have just 5 kata in all so maybe I'll just have to Live without Traditional Kata as the one thing I promised I wouldn't do is have any kata in my syllabus which was just for passing the next grading.

IMO a student is better with two pieces of applicable bunkai, and some basic skills, an understanding of the strategy behind what they are doing, (even if they aren't great with the pattern) than with knowing 12 kata just as patterns. Exaggerated example but you get the idea.

IMO a student is better with two pieces of applicable bunkai, and some basic skills, an understanding of the strategy behind what they are doing, (even if they aren't great with the pattern) than with knowing 12 kata just as patterns. Exaggerated example but you get the idea.

I guess it all depends on what your goal and intent for learning a kata is. If its to expand our martial experience, learn combative functions, etc. My personal take, there is no "right" version of any kata. my personal view is to see the common threads in different versions of kata (ex shotokan bassai, okinawan passai, etc), principles and combative functions, and then discern as best i can the variations: are they different for stylistic purposes, sporting purposes, is there another combative application, etc. And yes that is extremely subjective, but discern as BEST AS I CAN. What Ive found, is when we get to the "meat" of the matter, I am fascinated by the similarities the "differening' styles actually have. And as far as the variation of styles: i see it as a positive: more opportunites for people to learn something new if they so choose. again, not saying my view is "right", just stating my view

If so whilst his take on Bunkai is not my cup of T isnt there a very simple route for you to follow for 1/2/3 kata etc?

Im not sure attending specific seminars is that much money, Iains seminars seem very well priced etc and are very specific, he can offer you everything you need.

Personally I thin a focus on the excellent Ashihara method is best from what you describe, the traditional karate is very different.

Yes I am Shoshin,

Ashihara is a new way of Kata, and was formulated from Ashihara Kancho's training to 5th Dan in Kyokushin, including time as an Uchi Deshi with Oyama Sosai, and All the Street fights he got in with the local Yakuza or local Gangs he got accosted by for "protection" money etc. So it was from his findings from what works and what doesn't work that the Kata was created.

Why Did he throw away the Traditional Kata that you find in Kyokushin, Shotokan, Goju Ryu and ShitoRyu etc?

He was Japanese, NOT a Westerner (GaiJin) who was doing/trying "freestyle"

It should also be noted that World Oyama, by Shigeru Oyama, does essentially the same as Ashihara, both men were "dismissed" by Mas Oyama, basically for not following what Mas wanted them to do. Both went off and created modern Kumite based kata.

The Ashihara kata's have been around since the late 1980's. They are innovative, but also, just the same as other kata, if you study them long enough you'll see this.

I used to practice them during my studies of Kyokushin Kai in the early 1990's. They have specific purpose, but so do the traditional kata.

The "Bunkai" centers on fast flurries of attack that Ashihara believed was practical for knock down Kumite.

and

Dale Parker wrote:

It should also be noted that World Oyama, by Shigeru Oyama, does essentially the same as Ashihara, both men were "dismissed" by Mas Oyama, basically for not following what Mas wanted them to do. Both went off and created modern Kumite based kata.

I personally believe Ashihara's kata flow better than World Oyama.

I have seen the World Oyama Kata and I actually do like the kata minus the Ibuke breathing in some of the kata.

I've not seen any bunkai/application of them but would love to see them in that light

If so whilst his take on Bunkai is not my cup of T isnt there a very simple route for you to follow for 1/2/3 kata etc?

Im not sure attending specific seminars is that much money, Iains seminars seem very well priced etc and are very specific, he can offer you everything you need.

Personally I thin a focus on the excellent Ashihara method is best from what you describe, the traditional karate is very different.

Yes I am Shoshin,

Ashihara is a new way of Kata, and was formulated from Ashihara Kancho's training to 5th Dan in Kyokushin, including time as an Uchi Deshi with Oyama Sosai, and All the Street fights he got in with the local Yakuza or local Gangs he got accosted by for "protection" money etc. So it was from his findings from what works and what doesn't work that the Kata was created.

Why Did he throw away the Traditional Kata that you find in Kyokushin, Shotokan, Goju Ryu and ShitoRyu etc?

He was Japanese, NOT a Westerner (GaiJin) who was doing/trying "freestyle"ee

he probably threw them away because for the most part, the Japanese inherited almost zero understanding of body mechanics, bunkai, or any of the more in-depth stuff from Okinawan karate.

That is not to say he didn't figure out something effective for himself, but the kumite-based Japanese styles are very different than Okinawan stuff for the most part, and most had little to no training in principles of the traditional kata. He likely felt his findings were better than what he got with the traditional kata as he learned them, and he was probably right. That's not the kata though, that's the fact that for the most part Japanese Karate got a very incomplete transmission of what kata (among other things) was supposed to be.

he probably threw them away because for the most part, the Japanese inherited almost zero understanding of body mechanics, bunkai, or any of the more in-depth stuff from Okinawan karate.

That is not to say he didn't figure out something effective for himself, but the kumite-based Japanese styles are very different than Okinawan stuff for the most part, and most had little to no training in principles of the traditional kata. He likely felt his findings were better than what he got with the traditional kata as he learned them, and he was probably right. That's not the kata though, that's the fact that for the most part Japanese Karate got a very incomplete transmission of what kata (among other things) was supposed to be.

You Have a good point there, It has been noted by Western KarateKa that the Japanese nver questioned the Sensei of the school just did as they were told, it was the Western students who began to ask the what when where and why

he probably threw them away because for the most part, the Japanese inherited almost zero understanding of body mechanics, bunkai, or any of the more in-depth stuff from Okinawan karate.

That is not to say he didn't figure out something effective for himself, but the kumite-based Japanese styles are very different than Okinawan stuff for the most part, and most had little to no training in principles of the traditional kata. He likely felt his findings were better than what he got with the traditional kata as he learned them, and he was probably right. That's not the kata though, that's the fact that for the most part Japanese Karate got a very incomplete transmission of what kata (among other things) was supposed to be.

You Have a good point there, It has been noted by Western KarateKa that the Japanese nver questioned the Sensei of the school just did as they were told, it was the Western students who began to ask the what when where and why

Yeah what I mean is that is someone is looking for "practicality", without needing to define the term further..its' pretty natural that people would gravitate away from something like mainstream Shotokan kata, ritualized as it is. So in that case, the choice is really between going back and investigating old Okinawan methods, or forging ahead and doing something new.

When you watch Ashihara, Enshin, and even Kyokushin of today you can see the heavy influence of stuff like western boxing and muay thai, I have full respect for those styles and think they're rgeat, but it's a different direction to go in than Okinawan Karate, so I can see that maybe the traditional kata have a hard time "fitting in" alongside it. I'll be interested to see where you go in the long run, whether they end up holding something useful for you or not.