Category: Religion

The uproar lately in the media has been on the suspension of TV show Duck Dynasty’s Phil Robertson, for equating homosexuality to bestiality and promiscuity, and calling it a sin. Many of the people rushing to support Mr. Robertson and cry infringement of free speech aren’t arguing for free speech at all. Given that the vocal majority of these people are also those who call for boycotts for people saying things they don’t agree with, or demand television programs adhere to their religion or politics, they aren’t purveyors of free speech at all.

The rallies of “next they’ll come for your free speech” isn’t a battle cry to speak up to protect the First Amendment of the US Constitution. It really is a deep-seeded fear that they will be called bigot as well.

See, most of the people in support of Phil Robertson’s words agree with his beliefs: that homosexuality is a sin, and leads to bestiality and promiscuity, even though this is not the case. They are even the kinds of people who will pick and choose the parts of the Bible they subscribe to, while ignoring similar parts that would also make their lifestyle, personality or ideology a sin.

What they’re arguing is that if Mr. Robertson’s beliefs get him labeled a bigot, what’s to stop people from calling others who agree with his words bigots? If they take the focus off the intolerance of homosexuals and say it’s an attack on free speech, or religion, then they can continue their bigoted beliefs without being held accountable for them.

Like this:

This is something I’m labeling to better describe the all-too-common dishonest theist trick in online discussions.

Similar to where a person argues that believing in a god has only benefits and no downsides, whereas not believing has all the downsides and no benefits, Pascal’s Feint is when a theist argues that someday, everyone will have to go before his or her deity of choice and accept the consequences, and then they will know whether the theist was correct. This is usually the end of a discussion, where the theist runs, thinking he or she is victorious because, due to his or her beliefs, after death he or she will win.

Pascal’s Feint should be included as a logical fallacy of this specific version, and not be considered a forum trope like Godwin’s Law.

Like this:

So, you’re telling me that an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient deity will judge us when we die, and knows whether we’ve been decent folks or not, but has no involvement in the evil in this world, no way to fix the problems in the universe that it created, and still wants to condemn imperfect folks for its lack of leadership?

Like this:

Tonight, on Twitter, I asked a very straightforward question of a Muslim who argued that Islam provides a way for others to be good that is needed in this world.

He explained that in his faith, people should donate 2.5% of their savings that go to help the impoverished. And once, around 700 CE, this method eradicated poverty from one country. So, I asked the user on Twitter this:

If your god created the universe, why can’t it just create what the people need instead of having others provide it?

Unfortunately, he kept sidestepping this question by saying such things as this world’s a test to see whether people follow that god’s commands, and that god works by using others instead of being direct, and so forth. He insisted that this god would reward those who did well, by giving them whatever they wished after they died.

I followed up with an explanation as to what I was getting at with this question:

If your god created the universe, why can’t it just create what the people need instead of having others provide it?

If your god doesn’t exist, it makes sense that others have to act as proxy. If your god’s not powerful, it makes sense…

If your god doesn’t care, or no longer concerns itself with humans, it makes sense. But not if it’s the creator who loves us…

Once you realize that it’s just people perpetuating “god” as an entity through these diversions of reality, you see the futility of religious belief. And people will use others’ beliefs to get what they want, like donations…

I then asked a very direct, and carefully worded, question:

Is there any difference in how the world appears to work, if a god is testing humans, and if there’s no god at all?

Unfortunately, he kept going off on tangents trying to answer different questions, but I told him to read that question aloud and answer only what was asked. He finally responded that there was no understandable difference.

I then made sure that he understood what I was getting at, so I asked him,

Okay, so the only way you could foreseeably tell which one of those proposals could be true, is after one’s death, right?

To which he finally admitted, yes, that was the only way. Next,

Okay. And there very well could be another option that’s right, and “A test of the Islamic god” and “no god at all” could be wrong?

Once he agreed that my points were valid, I laid it out for him in this monologue that took up quite a few tweets:

Okay then. With all of that, and there’s no way to tell until after you die, why then believe any of it at all? Why not be good because you can be good, not because your religious beliefs say you should do this or that? Why would you want to worship an entity which constantly tests you, doesn’t seem to do anything, and won’t help others…? Why would you want to waste any of your time worshiping what may not exist, instead of making a bigger difference in this world? And, if that god does exist, but was this much of a useless jerkoff testing you, why would you want to be around it later? Promises of great things after you die, that can’t be verified until then, seems like a con man’s way of stringing rubes along. And since there are thousands of possible gods already, with most having similar reward systems, they can’t all be right, but it is possible that each and every deity/reward/religious system could be wrong. So why not just be good to be good?

Consider all of that, and then determine whether you’re living your life here and now, or for a reward that may not even exist?

As you can see, he’s bypassed point two. He insists others admit that, if they don’t respond to a claim of his, it means that they must admit that he’s right. Hypocrisy in action.

Here again are his responses. My responses will be in red.

Me: The big bang theory the most popular theory to the beginning of the universe, factors in an energy or infinitely dense matter that somehow for some reason exploded, yet never (and cannot) explains How energy entered into this equation? What caused the explosion..? Such questions that when thinking about point to an intelligent designer. And we know this from edward hubbles experiment which later concluded to the big bang that the universe had a beginning, now where does the beginning come from..? How could it even come in to play without any matter/energy present? Well my friends that leaves you utterly quiet because God, a source ABOVE the natural laws not bound by them is the only answer.

Him: It didn’t explode. It expanded. While matter and antimatter annihilated each other. This does not require an intelligent designer, merely a considerable understanding of the models put forward to explain all available evidence. You can’t put a placeholder into the mix, stating it’s your god, and it becomes valid until there’s a better explanation, when that god does not explain anything at all. How did your god do this? Where did that god come from? Without these, the premise of this god adds complexity and more unknowns to explaining the universe, which would be the opposite direction the scientific method leads our understanding.

That is absolutely false, the big bang is the explosion of an infinitely dense matter (singularity) This is said to have created – Time, energy, and matter. This also refutes when the moron said energy was eternal because this is the first time energy can be traced back to it. Anyway, you said all available evidence, lol please share some? As i stated earlier the big bang contradicts all laws of science which is why it still remains a theory, and im not discrediting the big bang i think it’s the best theory (as it’s stated in the quran) but science cannot explain how the universe didn’t continue exploding, HOW IT EVEN EXPLODED..? there was no energy before the big bang, from where does an explosion that creates the whole universe come, from nothing? How did the newly created particles form planets, and from those planets a planet that support life? NOT only that, a planet that revolves are the sound in order to maintain temperature. Science is completely baffled by that. Why doesn’t the earth just stay stationary, it has no mind of its own. Yet you’ll conveniently say oh well it just happened by chance, just like evolution, just like the big bang, just like any other anomaly you can’t find an answer too. Sorry bro i don’t believe in constant miracles over and over again without someone doing them. Anyone can tell you an intelligent design is a better assumption then chance by chance happening over again in our favor. Whether u admit it in arrogance or not is your own doing. My God as well as your God explains it quite clearly in the quran actually. Take a look at it sometime.

Yes, he’s calling me a moron in his reply, after reiterating that the big bang erroneously was an explosion. It was an expansion. See point two on this page for further explanation.

The big bang also did not create energy. The energy present was from conversion of particles into energy, and also the heat from the origins of the universe. These, again, were explained to him, yet he creates a straw man, yet again, to try to defeat. As you can see, he argues that I say one thing which is refuted by something else I said, when he gets both statements wrong.

He also demands evidence, yet all he produces when asked for evidence are quotes from the Quran. Rather than rewrite what’s already easily available (in fact, the first link returned on Google for big bang evidence), I will just offer TalkOrigins’ collection of evidence for the big bang.

Just the fact that he argues a science “still remains a theory” automatically discounts any arguments he has about science. To say such a thing, being ignorant about what theory means in science, shows that his opinions on any science are meaningless. Because of this, I’ll skip his opinions on science until he can demonstrate an understanding of the basics of science.

And, really, this paragraph is useless to respond to further, as he reiterates that the big bang was an explosion ad nauseum.

When describing the creation of the “heavens and the earth,” the Quran does not discount the theory of a “Big Bang” explosion at the start of it all. In fact, the Quran says that “the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder” (21:30).
Following this big explosion, Allah “turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: ‘Come together, willingly or unwillingly.’
{Another scientific miracle that smoke, a clear, scene after the big bang occurred.} dense-less, cloud was the BEST way to describe the
They said: ‘We come (together) in willing obedience'” (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.

As stated in another reply, the earth did not exist in any capacity at the beginning of the universe. Heavier elements that comprise the earth would still be billions of years away. Insisting that the Quran explains the origins of the universe while ignoring this point is a sign of either intellectual dishonesty or wishful thinking.

The initial state of the universe was not smoke. It was plasma. Dense, extremely hot matter so unstable that it could not bind to other particles until it cooled down.

And he presents no evidence that the quotes are based on reality. Quoting the Quran does not establish any credence to their validity. Especially when Mohamed attempts time and time again to turn poetic swaths into scientific knowledge.

The Quran further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. “It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course” (21:33).

The Quran could state that Allah predicted American Idol, it doesn’t mean that it actually happened. Independent verification is needed, and so far, none has been presented. Planetary orbits were known in Ancient Greece, as far back as the 4th century BCE. Definitely not divine revelation.

Expansion of Universe

The Quran also does not rule out the idea that the universe is continuing to expand. “The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it” (51:47)

Who knew that the universe expanded 1400 years ago Lol? Edward hubble discovered it in the 20th century.

Unfortunately for Mohamed, I went to read the passage here. And it does not have the context he claims it does. 51:24-51

Has there reached you the story of the honored guests of Abraham? –

When they entered upon him and said, “[We greet you with] peace.” He answered, “[And upon you] peace, [you are] a people unknown.

Then he went to his family and came with a fat [roasted] calf

And placed it near them; he said, “Will you not eat?”

And he felt from them apprehension. They said, “Fear not,” and gave him good tidings of a learned boy.

And his wife approached with a cry [of alarm] and struck her face and said, “[I am] a barren old woman!”

They said, “Thus has said your Lord; indeed, He is the Wise, the Knowing.”

[Abraham] said, “Then what is your business [here], O messengers?”

They said, “Indeed, we have been sent to a people of criminals

To send down upon them stones of clay,

Marked in the presence of your Lord for the transgressors.”

So We brought out whoever was in the cities of the believers.

And We found not within them other than a [single] house of Muslims.

And We left therein a sign for those who fear the painful punishment.

And in Moses [was a sign], when We sent him to Pharaoh with clear authority.

But he turned away with his supporters and said,” A magician or a madman.”

So We took him and his soldiers and cast them into the sea, and he was blameworthy.

And in ‘Aad [was a sign], when We sent against them the barren wind.

It left nothing of what it came upon but that it made it like disintegrated ruins.

And in Thamud, when it was said to them, “Enjoy yourselves for a time.”

But they were insolent toward the command of their Lord, so the thunderbolt seized them while they were looking on.

And they were unable to arise, nor could they defend themselves.

And [We destroyed] the people of Noah before; indeed, they were a people defiantly disobedient.

And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

And the earth We have spread out, and excellent is the preparer.

And of all things We created two mates; perhaps you will remember.

So flee to Allah. Indeed, I am to you from Him a clear warner.

And do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity. Indeed, I am to you from Him a clear warner.

The expansion is done by people, not by any deity. Another dead end for his claims of divine revelation.

Furthermore a God does not complex anything, in fact it provides insight and reason as to why the universe was created, why it maintains itself as such with the orbits, and it not continually collapsing on its self over and over again. And explains why so many anomalies can happen, such as the 5 – 10 examples i gave of extreme examples in my earlier argument. You make things complicated when u try to take God out of the equation which is why you have so many holes in your theories, because a lot of the anomalies in science don’t make sense, such as the big bang, such as the earth rotating around the sun in order to maintain life, such as gravity, such as every single organism in the earth able to find its sustenance on earth.

And the insight and reason into these are . . . ? The “fine-tuned” argument was already debunked.

And things get less complicated when a deity is removed from the equation. With a deity, the explanation is pushed back onto another level; this requires the how, and also what that deity is, exactly. Where did it come from? How does it operate? And so forth. It doesn’t answer any questions, since “godidit” doesn’t explain anything.

As stated earlier, the earth does not rotate around the sun. It revolves around the sun. It rotates on its axis. And how are any of these points unable to “make sense” in science?

“Indeed, within the heavens and earth are signs for the believers.
And in the creation of yourselves and what He disperses of moving creatures are signs for people who are certain [in faith].
And [in] the alternation of night and day and [in] what Allah sends down from the sky of provision and gives life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and [in His] directing of the winds are signs for a people who reason.” (43: 2-5)

Allah points out sign after sign, convenience after convenience that you’ve brushed off, not only that,you deny that and say it’s all by chance? That is the most foolish thought of them all.

Another straw man. No one’s arguing that things are by chance. In the previous reply, it was stated that the quote from Stephen Hawking was mined, and that he explained that the timing was due to natural laws, and not a lucky happenstance. Quoting from the Quran does not explain anything, and mostly it is an attempt to reinterpret what men wrote to be something more than it really is.

“These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?” (43:6)

Note that he never addressed my questions about where his god comes from. Like point 2, he can’t answer it without admitting he is wrong. He cannot declare that science is full of holes for not having all the answers, and not have all the answers for his hole-less explanation of his deity.

He also has refused to update his previous response that had a straw man argument in it as well, even after admitting that it was. He’s still missing the rest of my replies of my original post. It does appear that he simply cannot refute real science, and disappears into his ignorance and mining quotes from the Quran to try to prove that the Quran is really divine revelation.

Debunked, again.

I suggest that, instead of wasting my time, Mohamed Alsous actually researches science first, and stops posting utter nonsense and quotes from the Quran. If he can demonstrate without quoting from the Quran that his deity exists and is capable of the stories in the Quran, then I’ll listen. Otherwise, it’s just another useless reply.

Like this:

His post is in gray. My original response is in blue, new response in red.

This is false. We have a pretty good understanding of how the universe began, if one defines the universe as the visible spacetime we currently reside in. The big bang theory best explains, based on all available evidence, the origins of spacetime. We have the background radiation, the redshift of galaxies moving apart, and the mathematics that, when we reverse this movement, shows a singularity when everything once occupied an infinitely hot, infinitely dense point before time and space. The natural laws we observe only work in the universe we can observe. We can’t observe spacetime before it began to exist.

From where did the energy for the big bang to occur happen? Don’t tell me you know because then you should have already won some great prestige by now. Because even the big bang theory itself contradicts the law of conservation of energy and matter, hence it remaining a theory not being established as a fact, I would however like to note i do agree with the big bang theory SOLEY, because the Quran mentions it as the beginning of the universe: (Mentioned 1400 years ago by the way) Quran 21:31 Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We clove them asunder (fataqna)? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?”

The energy likely always was. The model of the singularity is everything that was before spacetime. Just as theists love to claim that their god had always existed, it is possible that, before spacetime, everything in the singularity always was. Since, well, there is no time before spacetime.

The quote from the Quran would be wrong. The earth did not exist at the beginning of the universe. The atoms that comprise the earth didn’t exist at the beginning of the universe. They were forged in stars that died over billions and billions of years. This is, yet again, a poetic attempt to explain the unknown that is being manipulated to try to match what science discovers, if one ignores that it is vague and, as stated earlier, flat out wrong on its premise.

Here we have the clear catalyst of the big bang, without GOD, this COULD not have happened there was no energy for this to have happened otherwise.

Mohamed assumes there was no energy. But energy is produced from the annihilation of matter and antimatter, which is what caused the expansion of the big bang. The creation of these particles from the singularity had energy in the form of heat. So there is still no need of any deity to explain these aspects.

Now what else does that verse say? From every living thing was made from water. Cells are 80% water. And cells are the basic structure of all life but u already knew that. Who knew these 2 facts 1400 years ago…?

This would be fascinating, had Thales in the 6th century BCE not already theorized that water was the principle element of everything, including living creatures. It would also be more fascinating if Surah 15:26 didn’t say, “We created the human being from aged mud, like the potter’s clay.” Or Surah 30:20 didn’t say, “Among His proofs is that He created you from dust, then you became reproducing humans.” These aren’t revelations, but copying from earlier texts. The Bible, for one, describes creating man from the dust of the earth.

This shows that Mohamed Alsous (@meta4malsous) again seems to be copying his arguments and not really understanding how to defend them.

Like this:

Why not take a tragedy that leaves a baby an orphan and many people witness to a suicide to score points for your religious delusions? That’s how Conservapedia played out the recent news about Jovan Belcher of the Kansas City Chiefs.

Like this:

Today, we have a creationist moron with 167 subscribers (at the time of this posting) challenges Richard Dawkins to debunk his claim. That claim? Since Darwin was not a Christian while on the voyage of The Beagle, evolution did not start with an objective foundation, and therefore cannot be science. And if Dawkins does not respond to this creationist’s challenge, it’s the nail in evolution’s coffin.