Today I have the pleasant task of formerly introducing a member who was
elected in the by-election held on November 12. He is Mr. Terry French, in the
District of Conception Bay South. I have been advised by the Clerk of the House
of Assembly that Mr. French has taken the Oath of Allegiance to the Crown as
required by the constitution and has signed the Members Roll.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present to you the Member
for Conception Bay South, Mr. Terry French. I request the right for him to claim
his seat in this House of Assembly.

MR. SPEAKER: Let the member take his seat.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On Tuesday, November 26, following the statement of the hon. the Minister of
Labrador & Aboriginal Affairs announcing the round table discussions in
Happy Valley-Goose Bay on the proposed Gull Island hydro development, the hon.
the Opposition House Leader raised a point of privilege stating that in being
denied an invitation to the meeting the privileges of the members of the
Official Opposition were being breached.

Parliamentary privilege, as often been stated in this House, is "the sum
of the peculiar rights enjoyed by Members of (the) House... without which they
could not discharge their functions." Beauchesne's 6th
Edition, paragraph §24. To constitute privilege there must be some improper
obstruction to the member in performing his or her parliamentary work. Beauchesne's
6th Edition, paragraph §92.

In this instance the minister had invited a number of persons to attend a
meeting which was closed to others.

Members of governments and ministers convene meetings and briefings, all the
time, and on various matters, which are not open to Members of the House. There
have been a number of attempts to invoke privilege in connection with the
disclosure of information to some other groups before disclosing it to Members
of the House.

In a ruling made on March 19, 2001, Mr. Speaker Milliken of the House of
Commons ruled that the disclosure of information on a bill to the media before
it was introduced into the House did not constitute a breach of privilege.
Similarly, in a ruling of Speaker Fraser on June 18, 1987 - page 7315 of Debates
- concerning giving access to a number of individuals who are not Members of the
House of Assembly to the text of a White Paper before it was tabled in the House
did not found a question of privilege.

In paragraph §31(10) of Beauchesne the same point is made quoting
from Speaker Lamoureux, of the House of Commons Debates, October 30,1969, pages
269 and 270. "The question has often been raised whether parliamentary
privilege imposes on ministers an obligation to deliver ministerial statements
and to make announcements and communications to the public through the House of
Commons or to make these announcements or statements in the House rather than
outside the chamber. The question has been asked whether Hon. members are
entitled, as part of their parliamentary privilege, to receive such information
ahead of the general public. I can find no precedent to justify this
suggestion."

While members may think they are inconvenienced or that their work is made
more difficult if they are not included in such meetings or briefings it is the
opinion of the Chair that there is no parliamentary requirement that they be
included. In this instance the Chair finds that there is no prima facie case of
breach of privilege.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader on November 26 rose on a point of order.
The Chair would like to reiterate for all hon. members the ruling of November
21, in which the Chair referred to the importance of conducting the proceedings
of the House in such a way as to respect the integrity of all members. As I said
at the time, without such respect the proceedings descend into disorder and the
work of the House becomes secondary to wrangling and disputes. To quote Marleau
and Montpetit at page 525, "... the use of offensive, (or) provocative...
language in the House is strictly forbidden." "Personal attacks,
insults... are not in order."

On Tuesday, the hon. the Opposition House Leader raised a point of order
concerning comments of the hon. the Premier. In answering a question from the
hon. the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. the Premier said, "I am glad
that he has probably had an opportunity now to have a fuller briefing with the
former Chair of the Hydro board, whom I have great respect for, Mr. Speaker. In
fact, I guess the Leader of the Opposition is showing quite clearly that his
principles, his morals, are such that it does not really matter what questions
you ask, where you get the information base, or what you do, as long as it
furthers his political agenda."

The Chair is of the opinion that the hon. the Premier's words, which the
Chair has just quoted, impute to the Leader of the Opposition an unworthy
motive. As the Chair stated in a ruling on Monday, November 25, it is not
acceptable to impute bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged by
a member.

I refer members to Beauchesne 6th Edition, §481. In the
opinion of the Chair, the Premier's language does fall within the prohibition,
and I would ask him to withdraw it.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I withdraw the remarks.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise today on a point of
personal privilege. I rise reluctantly, but I rise out of a heavy sense of duty
to the members of this House and to myself in the first instance, as a member of
caucus, as a member of Cabinet, and as a member and minister of the department
who is currently leading on the file, the development of the Lower Churchill.

I want to bring to the attention of the Speaker, comments and assertions, I
guess, that were made by the Leader of the Opposition on November 27 on behalf
of himself, I guess, and his caucus, as he indicated here. The assertion was
this: that he and his members had been provided with information with respect to
the Lower Churchill development project by members of Cabinet and by members of
caucus.

To me, Mr. Speaker, that is a very serious circumstance for myself because it
immediately brings into question whether or not I, as a member of the government
of the day, as a minister of the Crown, as the minister leading on this file,
and as a member of the caucus on this side of the House, it brings into question
whether or not I have, in fact, been derelict - worse than derelict - that I
have broken my oath, in probably having it alleged that I may have been one who
was sharing information outside of the norm on this file, and that is
information that I would share with caucus, Cabinet, or other officials and
other agencies that would be appropriately involved in this file.

I ask the hon. Speaker today to take into consideration the issue that I
raise, because I believe my personal privileges have been breached, at minimum
my integrity as a member of government has been questioned, and I want to affirm
to this House and to the Speaker of the House that I have not been derelict, nor
have I been irresponsible, nor have I been inappropriately sharing information
with anybody that would be inappropriate, including members of the Opposition,
on this particular issue.

The assertion that I refer to, obviously, Mr. Speaker, is not lightly
considered by myself. I would think it would not lightly be considered by any
member of the House who would be, by way of extension of comment, brought under
such suspicion, and I would ask the hon. Speaker to rule on this. I am sure that
all members on this side of the House maybe feel like I do, that their
privileges have been breached and that their integrity has been questioned.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that I have been faithful in the
oath that I have taken to the Queen of our Commonwealth with respect to my
responsibilities on matters of confidentially, on matters of privacy, and on
matters of guarding against anything that would injuriously be inflicted upon
this government or upon this issue that has brought this comment forth.

I would ask you to rule, Mr. Speaker, on this issue of breach of my
privileges. I again attest and affirm that I, as one member of government, have
not being sharing inappropriately information with anybody on any file, on any
issue, at any time, on any account, and I would ask the public of the Province
and the people of this House to understand that I, as one member, as far as I
know, I have been faithful and I have not been one who has been sharing
inappropriate information, or sharing information inappropriately, with anybody,
at any time, for any purpose, on any issue.

I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, inasmuch as I feel that my privileges on this
issue have been breached - maybe I am not the only one - I would suggest all of
my colleagues on this side of the House might be of a similar feeling in this
context.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. WILLIAMS: If he's clean, what about everybody else?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Pardon me?

A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The Chair will hear the point of privilege raised by the hon. Minister of
Mines and Energy first.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise to speak to the point of privilege of the Minister of Mines and
Energy. Before I do, I want to say that whatever documents he has in his hand,
he is obligated to table those - those references - and I look forward to seeing
them.

If my memory serves me correctly, for a point of privilege to be raised,
privileges of the Minister or members of this House are not breached according
to Marleau, according to Beauchesne, and according to Maingot, if the
minister - and I believe he is - referring to statements made outside this
Chamber. If, in fact -

AN HON. MEMBER: Will he (inaudible)?

MR. E. BYRNE: Well, that is -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, to the point of privilege, while I appreciate
the Minister of Mines and Energy's, I suppose, motivation for standing up and
saying it wasn't me or that I did not breach my duties as a minister or relate
or give any information to anybody about the issue at hand, the fact of the
matter remains that, when it comes to his privileges as a member of this House
and his privileges as a minister of the Crown, they were not, in fact, breached;
because the statements that the minister refers to were made outside this House
in a media scrum and therefore have no basis for a point of privilege in this
House.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of privilege that was raised, the Chair will certainly review
the comments that have been made by the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy,
take the point raised under advisement and rule on it.

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker.

As my colleague stood and spoke to defend his integrity, the Leader of the
Opposition was laughing. He looked up and he said: He spoke, what about the rest
of you? That is what he said. I take personal offence to that and I would say, I
have never, directly or indirectly, given information out. I would still say, Mr
Speaker, when comments are made outside this House about members inside this
House, the people of the Province do not often make the differentiation. I feel
personally affronted, as I am sure everyone of my colleagues do, and I would ask
them how they feel about this too, Mr. Speaker, because I think it speaks to a
level that I would prefer never enter this House.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, there was no allegation yesterday outside this
House leveled on any member. The record of the House will show clearly that what
the Minister of Finance has just said was not said. The fact of the matter is,
Mr. Speaker, that what we are seeing today are points of frustration and not
points or order and not points of privilege.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: The matter is easily resolved. All the hon. the Leader of the
Opposition has to do is to stand in his place and say that he didn't make the
statement or that he withdraws the statement. With respect to the point of
privilege, Mr. Speaker, everybody stood on this side of the House in
affirmation, that they divulge no information to the Leader of the Opposition or
to anybody on that side of the House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Again, to the point raised by the hon. the minister, the Chair certainly didn't
hear the comment that the hon. member made, but I am sure if the hon. member
made any comment that was unparliamentary he will withdraw it.

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On Saturday, November 16, I had the opportunity, on behalf of Loyola Hearn,
MP for St. John's West, to present to Mrs. Elizabeth Lee of Riverhead, St.
Mary's Bay, the Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal for her years of dedication to
her community, to her Province and, indeed, her country.

Mrs. Elizabeth Lee has been a tower of strength in ensuring that the Royal
Canadian Legion, Branch 62 of Riverhead, St. Mary's Bay, has prospered and
grown through some very difficult economic times in the past number of years.

I was always aware of Mrs. Lee's involvement but since being elected to
this House I have witnessed first-hand the true commitment and dedication of
this woman.

She has been an advocate for the perseveration of the Legion Building in
Riverhead, but much more than that, she has been a strong advocate for the
perseveration of remembering those who fought and died for the freedom we all
enjoy today. The Queen's Jubilee Medal is being awarded to those persons who
have made a significant contribution to Canada, their community and to their
fellow Canadians.

In my words, Mr. Speaker, this medal is being awarded to those among us who
have made a difference.

There is no doubt in my mind, and I am sure in the minds and hearts of all
those who know and have witnessed the actions of Mrs. Elizabeth Lee, that she
has indeed made a difference and is very deserving of this prestigious award.

I ask all Members of this House to join with me today in congratulating Mrs.
Elizabeth Lee of Riverhead, St. Mary's Bay, on receiving the Queen's Golden
Jubilee Medal and wish her all the best in the future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Her, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to congratulate two members from my district who have
participated in the Youth Ventures Program. Kirk and Kris Bussey won two awards
for their achievement this summer as owner-operators of ‘Burger Boys', a
mobile hot dog and snack vendor headquartered in Port de Grave. Kirk and Kris
tied for the High Achievement in Marketing award and won the Venture of the Year
award.

They both began this enterprise three years ago as a water stand. During this
time they have grown to be able to employ not only themselves but seventeen
other students. They purchased an RV, created logos and a brand name, and
provided uniforms to their staff. The ‘Burger Boys' have been present at the
Regatta, the Klondike Festival, the Salmon Festival and won exclusive contracts
to sell their products at the Shaggy concert held this past summer.

There were a number of other students that were presented with awards for
their participation in this program. Although they are not from my district, I
would like to recognize Andrew Cross, Robert Gear, Donovan Parsons, Roland Reid,
Amy Pollard, Christopher Mitchelmore, Kristian Wiseman, and Hilary Oram.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to acknowledge the importance of the Youth Ventures
Program for Newfoundland and Labrador. The program teaches business skills,
builds confidence and strengthens the entrepreneurial spirit of the youth of our
Province; it instills an appreciation of the contributions of the small business
sector to the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador. I think it is fitting that
we extend congratulations to the Youth Ventures Program, Kris and Kirk Bussey
and to all the youth who have participated in the program.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to take this opportunity to recognize the tremendous efforts of
SmartLabrador, an organization that was chosen as the Smart Communities
Demonstration Project for Newfoundland and Labrador. SmartLabrador is one of
twelve smart communities from across Canada that uses innovative technology to
enhance services for people in the Northern and remote communities so that they
may enable a traditional way of life, yet access the global market.

The SmartLabrador Initiative named ‘Technology on Top of the World' is an
initiative of the geographic, social, cultural and economic community of
Labrador. Earlier this month, I had the pleasure of attending the first-ever
Northern Solutions Conference that was held at Happy Valley-Goose Bay. The
three-day conference gave the public the opportunity to witness first-hand some
of the new technologies at work in Labrador.

It was amazing to see the Smart Services technology that the project has
implemented and the number of communities that this organization has reached
across Labrador. We were able to use the technology to allow participation from
other provinces such as Ontario, Saskatchewan and Nunavut in the conference
itself.

Labrador is certainly a smart community that is clearly representative of a
community with a vision for the future and is using the information and
communication technologies in new and innovate ways to empower its residents and
its institutions within the region.

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask all members to join me in extending our
congratulations to SmartLabrador for it truly is an innovative organization that
makes the most of the opportunities that new technologies afford to improve the
health care system, the education system, and provide training and new business
opportunities for people in our northern communities.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS M. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I recently attended the Newfoundland and
Labrador Soccer Association and the Burin Peninsula Soccer Hall of Fame
induction ceremonies as nine new members were elected to the Burin Peninsula
Hall of Fame and seven new members were inducted to the Provincial Soccer Hall
of Fame. All who attended agreed that these inductees have made a significant
impact to the growth of soccer in this Province.

I want to send a special congratulations to Joanne Mallay-Jones of Marystown,
one of the nine new Burin Peninsula Hall of Fame inductees. She won five soccer
scoring titles in the Burin Peninsula Soccer League between 1985 and 1994, and
was also part of university teams at Memorial and the University of British
Columbia.

Mr. Speaker, I would like also to congratulate the rest of the Burin
Peninsula Soccer Hall of Fame Nominees this year: Albert Anstey and Bill Grandy
from the Burin Area; Luke Edwards of Lawn; Yvonne Edwards, Keith Farrell,
Murdock Hiscock and Howard Lake of St. Lawrence; and Eli Lee of Grand Bank, who
have all played an integral role in development of soccer on the Burin
Peninsula, and I, along with my hon. colleague from Grand Bank, believe they
should be recognized.

I would also like to congratulate Mr. Don Turpin of St. Lawrence, a familiar
voice to soccer fans on the Burin Peninsula, who was inducted into the
Provincial Soccer Hall of Fame, along with Keith Farrell of St. Lawrence; Eli
Lee and John Russell of Grand Bank; Ken Hunt of Deer Lake; Adrian Miller of St.
John's; and Jean (Lake) Thompson of Paradise.

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate all of these inductees for their accomplishments
and it is just further proof that soccer will continue to have a strong link in
this Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, today the report from the Royal Commission on the Future of
Health Care in Canada was tabled in the House of Commons. For the past eighteen
months, the Commission, led by Mr. Roy Romanow, has been working to develop
policies and measures to ensure the long-term sustainability of a universally
accessible, publicly-funded health system for the country.

Mr. Romanow has made a number of recommendations to improve the health system
in this country. We will immediately review these recommendations as they relate
to health services in our Province.

Premiers have for some time being calling upon the federal government to
assume its fair share of responsibility by joining with provinces and
territories in a new funding partnership that will allow us to make the
adjustments necessary to sustain health care.

There are a number of positive forward-looking recommendations, such as the
reference made to taking a needs-based approach to the allocation of the Canada
Health Transfer. This gives us some hope that our needs may be partially
addressed in the longer term. We are somewhat concerned, Mr. Speaker, by the
lack of a recommendation for immediate new funding to stabilize our current
health and community services system.

We are also pleased that Mr. Romanow recognizes reform of the equalization
program is critical to the sustainability of health care programming in smaller,
less-wealthy provinces such as Newfoundland and Labrador.

The health care budget in our Province is $1.5 billion. Since1996-1997,
government has consistently invested new money into health and community
services. It has meant a 46 per cent increase in funding in this Province over
that period of time. The health budget in our Province now makes up 45 per cent
of the total program spending of the government. For every $1 billion put into
health care in the country, a per capita transfer would mean about $17 million
in Newfoundland and Labrador.

While some of the suggested funding allocations contained in the report may
seem like large investments in health care nationally, we are concerned about
the portion we would receive. For example, our budget for the Prescription Drug
Program alone increased 30 per cent from 1998-1999 to this current year. The
cost for us to pay for our doctors, nurses and other health care professionals
is hundreds of millions of dollars.

Mr. Speaker, provincial and territorial governments are already working
diligently to manage our health care systems effectively both to sustain and
improve the quality, efficiency and effectiveness of core health services. The
provision of any new federal funding will assist us in fulfilling our plans.
However, I must point out that provinces and territories are in the best
position to know how and where to allocate any funding.

I have directed the Minister of Health and Community Services to review the
Commissioner's recommendations in light of our own priorities and advise on
how we can support our own plans through these recommendations. As we are all
aware, Newfoundland and Labrador has recently released its own provincial
Strategic Health Plan, Healthier Together, which lays out a broad, innovative
approach to health and community services for this Province.

I have also directed the Finance Minister to analyze the funding proposals
recommended by Mr. Romanow and provide advice over the next few weeks leading up
to a First Ministers' meeting early in the new year.

Next week, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health and Community Services will be
meeting with his provincial and territorial colleagues on the Romanow Report. On
December 17 and 18, the Minister of Finance will be meeting with her colleagues
on the same issue. I am encouraged that these key ministers will meet quickly to
discuss the recommendations of this report.

I join with other premiers across the country in that I am pleased to see
that many of the recommendations we have been making have been echoed by Mr.
Romanow, and others, recently. What is important now is that we turn these
recommendations into action and reality. We have continuously increased our
health care budgets and we feel it is now time that the federal government do
its part by restoring its fair share of health care funding in the country.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, are extremely pleased with the recommendations in the Romanow
Report. I think there is a real lesson in the Romanow process because he truly
demonstrated what it is truly like to have full public open consultation in
developing a vision and a future for our health services.

Mr. Speaker, we are particularly pleased with the notion that there is going
to be an expansion of the Canada Health Act to include such things as home care
and pharmacare in the future. These are futurist - very important issues facing
Canada's health system. For a Province like Newfoundland and Labrador, it
continuously references focus on rural Canada and that is important for us.

We, too, Mr. Speaker, share the Premier's comments with respect to ensuring
that these bold new initiatives have adequate federal funding attached to them,
so I am extremely pleased to see that.

Mr. Speaker, one of the things that he continued to echo in his release
today, and in his public press comment, was that he was calling on all of the
premiers in all of the provinces in Canada to come together in a spirit of
co-operation. I trust one of the comments that the Premier made about pointing
out that it is, in fact, the provinces who know best what to do with their
health care, that comment is not indicative of the spirit in which he is going
enter into discussions with the federal government with respect to having a much
more cooperative arrangement for health care in this country.

One of the other things that is extremely pleasing, Mr. Speaker, is Romanow's
suggestion that he is going to add a sixth principle to the Canada Health Act,
and that is the principle of accountability. If there is anything that this
country needs and this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador desperately needs
is a provision, a mandatory provision, in legislation holding governments
accountable for the scarce health care money that we are spending. So, we are
extremely pleased and overwhelmingly endorse that particular principle. I think,
with that principle in place, it will give the people of Newfoundland and
Labrador some level of comfort, that someone will now be finally held
accountable for the $1.5 billion that we are spending on health care.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, are very pleased with the report of Roy Romanow today which we hope
will bring to an end the debate about health care in this country and make a
turning point towards improving our system, rather than trying to take it apart
by dissecting it and replacing it with a private for-profit system.

Mr. Romanow has affirmed the principles of the Canada Health Act and their
value to this country, suggested adding accountability as a feature which I
believe is necessary, and also has outlined proposed directions for change to
add coverage for home care services to the Canada Health Act, to add support for
home mental health case management and other support for mental illnesses to the
Canada Health Act, expand the Canada Health Act to cover home care for
post-acute care and medication management and rehabilitation services, and also
palliative care services.

This is the beginning, Mr. Speaker, of a national drug program and also a
national home care strategy, one which I hope will be now turned into
implementation and firm support by this government and governments across the
country.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to rise today to inform this hon. House that the Premier's
round table discussion on the proposed Gull Island project in Happy Valley-Goose
Bay on Wednesday was a resounding success.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: More than thirty business, Aboriginal and community leaders
from all over Labrador came together, Mr. Speaker, to discuss this very
important proposed development, and we all walked away with a sense of
accomplishment. My colleague from Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair and the Member
for Torngat Mountains, along with the Member for Labrador West, all participated
in the discussion, as did the MP for Labrador.

In all my years of public life, Mr. Speaker, I can honestly say that this was
one of the more productive meetings I have had the pleasure to attend.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: What we have managed to accomplish, Mr. Speaker, was a
consensus to move forward with discussions to develop the Gull Island project.
People made it very clear that specific benefits must be provided to Labrador,
and I would suggest you listen to these.

These include, Mr. Speaker: A plan to address the high cost of electricity on
the -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, just to repeat. It is very clear that specific benefits must be
provided to Labrador, and these include: A plan to address the high cost of
electricity on the Labrador coast; the ability to recall electricity from Gull
Island for industrial development in Labrador; and a Labrador economic
development fund, to be administered by and for the people of Labrador and for
the communities in which they live.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, more than anyone else in the Province, the
people of Labrador, both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, have felt the injustices
of the past when it comes to resource development. This injustice has been
compounded by false starts, heightened expectations and lack of consultation by
past governments.

I have been involved in public life for nearly thirty years and yesterday was
a turning point - a point in our history when the people of Labrador said the
decision to develop in Labrador must begin in Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I want to again thank the Premier
for his continued commitment to listening to the concerns of the people of
Labrador.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, there must have been two meetings in
Labrador yesterday. Today's media quotes the Mayor of Labrador City as saying,
"Maybe it is my own fault. I came here with false expectations. I'm not
getting the information that I thought I would get today so I'm in no better
position than I was this morning to make a decision on whether it is a good deal
or not."

The Mayor of Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Mr. Hickey, is also quoted as saying,
"I'm not comfortable with the idea of having our banker for a
partner." He continues to say, "We said ‘here are out demands, Mr.
Premier. Now you put our demands in your framework with Quebec.'"

Mr. Speaker, the frustration of the people of Labrador is shared by all of
the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. The people of Newfoundland and Labrador
feel shut out and dismayed, primarily for two reasons on this issue, because of
the little amount of information that they are aware of and because of the vast
amount of information that they are not aware of.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I know one thing that did not happen at the meeting in Labrador yesterday,
the people who were there did not even get the power point presentation that was
supposed to be presented to the board of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. The
meeting was not about the Premier's deal. What was made clear at the meeting
yesterday was: no major development in Labrador for Gull Island or anything else
- whether it be by this government, by a Tory government or by an NDP government
- is going to take place without proper consultation with the people of
Labrador, without them having a say, without them putting their demands and
preconditions on the table.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARRIS: What they have done is put preconditions on the table for any
deal. They did not approve any deal. They did not comply with any deal. They did
not see any deal, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: They made preconditions for any deal that should take place,
and that is a good thing.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to update the hon. House on a resolution which was passed
unanimously here on Thursday past.

Mr. Speaker, the resolution read in part, BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that this
House unanimously request that all Newfoundland and Labrador Members of
Parliament and Senators meet with the Premier, the Minister of Fisheries and
Aquaculture and the leaders of the Official Opposition and New Democratic Party
to ensure we are working collectively and cooperatively for the best interests
of the people and communities of this Province.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House that a meeting has been
arranged and an invitation has been extended to all the aforementioned
individuals. The meeting will be held in Ottawa on Monday, December 2, 2002.

Mr. Speaker, the main purpose of the meeting will be to discuss a common and
cooperative approach to identifying and addressing potential impacts of possible
cod fishery closures in this Province, including the need for Ottawa to develop
a comprehensive compensation package for affected Newfoundlanders and
Labradorians.

While in Ottawa on Monday, Mr. Speaker, I will also be attending a meeting of
the Atlantic Fisheries Ministers along with the federal Minister of Fisheries
and Oceans. Mr. Speaker, the potential cod fisheries closures and the state of
the Atlantic cod stocks will be the main agenda item at this meeting, and I will
once, again, bring forward the concerns of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians
regarding this issue.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, would like to say that we are happy that the meeting is arranged on
this very important issue, Mr. Speaker, but I would like to bring up a very
important thing. In the debate that we had on Thursday past, a fine debate in
non-partisan politics, we talked about working collectively and cooperatively
for the best interests of the people in the communities in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture was informed at 1:00 o'clock
yesterday that the Leader of the Opposition was unable to attend any meeting on
Monday coming, that he was available for any other day in the next two weeks.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TAYLOR: Any other day in the next two weeks, and it matters not why.
He was informed of that. What happened to the non-partisan politics? What
happened to working collectively?

The minister also knows that the Leader of the Opposition -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. TAYLOR: - could have attended any meeting here in Newfoundland on
Monday. So, Mr. Speaker, the cooperation, where is it and why has he left it out
of this important meeting?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to say that we certainly welcome the opportunity to have
the meeting that we agreed upon last week. As it happens, I am available on
Monday. I was asked yesterday about my availability and I was available. I do
not know whether or not - and I am sure the minister -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition was as well, and
I hope it could be arranged for a time that all people involved in this proposal
can be available for the meeting.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, this afternoon I would like to inform members that last night I,
along with the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development, the Minster of
Human Resources and Employment, and the Minister of Government Services and
Lands, attended the 10th anniversary celebration of the Newfoundland
and Labrador Environmental Industry Association and the 1st
Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Industry Awards.

We would like to congratulate the winners of the following awards announced
last night: Capacity Building in the Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental
Sector - Newfound Disposal Systems of St. Johns; Environmental Performance in
Newfoundland and Labrador Industry Sector- Corner Brook Pulp and Paper;
Community - Evergreen Recycling; Outstanding Individual Contribution to the
Environmental Industry in Newfoundland and Labrador - Mr. Bevin LeDrew and also
Mr. Paul Antle, owner and CEO of Island Waste Management.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank NEIA for its
co-operation and partnering to assist our Province in dealing with waste
management issues and providing expertise and advice in developing environmental
policy and legislation.

Newfoundland and Labrador's environmental industry has grown steadily
during the past ten years. Today, there are more than 200 companies operating in
the environmental sector, employing more than 2,000 people. The sector brings an
estimated $120 million in economic value to the Province annually. Our
environmental industry is diverse and dynamic today and, according to industry
sources, is expected to grow at a rate of 8 per cent annually for the next ten
years.

The work of the Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Industry Association
will continue to play an extremely important role in the implementation of the
Province's Waste Management Strategy and providing partnerships in
environmental initiatives in our Province.

Government recognizes that the environmental sector is an emerging force in
our economy and that a strong industry association is a key ingredient to
achieving the full potential of the sector.

Again, Mr. Speaker, congratulations to the Newfoundland and Labrador
Environmental Industry Association on its 10th Anniversary and the
significant accomplishments it has achieved to date.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, was at the dinner last night, along with the ministers, Mr. Speaker,
and I wish to congratulate Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, Newfound Disposal
Systems, Evergreen Recycling, Bevin LeDrew and Paul Antle.

The recycling and waste management industry in this Province has a long way
to go before we catch up to what Nova Scotia has been doing for the past ten
years. It is groups like the Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Industry
Association that have been the driving force in this Province to force
government and the Department of Environment to take on some of the initiatives
in this Province that are long overdue, that have been taking place in other
provinces for years.

I would like to recognize and congratulate the Newfoundland and Labrador
Environmental Industry Association for the work that they have been doing
throughout the Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to join in congratulating the Newfoundland and Labrador
Environmental Industry Association on its 10th Anniversary as an
industry organization in the Province, and to say that an industry organization
like this creates a sense of professionalism amongst the members and creates
higher standards for the work they do in helping to clean up our environment and
making our environment more responsive to recycling and other needs. Waste
management is very important, but also environmental management and
environmental sustainability.

I would also like to join also in congratulating the winners of the awards-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - who have demonstrated excellence in this area.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions this afternoon are for the Premier.

If I could, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out and welcome, first of all,
Terry French's wife Denise, and his mom, Betty French, in the gallery, and his
daughter Abbey, who obviously is not too impressed with the Ministerial
Statements because she is asleep.

I would certainly like to welcome them to the House of Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, on Monday of this week, the Premier said, and
I quote, "...this Government of Canada of today has made a conscious policy
decision to not be involved in funding and building new megaprojects...".

Mr. Speaker, could the Premier please table the most recent request he has
made to the federal government, and/or federal Minister Gerry Byrne, to help
finance the Lower Churchill project for the benefit of the people of
Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am delighted to have the Leader of the Opposition chase after another red
herring today. It has already been exposed twice in the last little while, Mr.
Speaker, here in the House today most definitively, in terms of dealing with
this very serious issue by innuendo, suggesting that he has information in his
possession that is confidential, that he should not have, he sees nothing wrong
with that. The sources, he said, were the caucus and the Cabinet, and every
single member on this side of the House today denied that in person in this
Legislature and he laughed at it. That is how seriously he takes this, because
he spreads these rumours by innuendo.

Now he is asking about a report in the media yesterday -

MR. E. BYRNE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind hon. members that we should keep points of orders until the end of
Question Period.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to stand here and allow the
Premier to get on with innuendo, imputing motives. You have made him withdraw
statements today, imputing motives -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: You have made him withdraw statements today, and I ask you
to make the Premier, to advise him that what he just insinuated is imputing
motives again to the Leader of the Opposition, and ask him to withdraw those
statements inside this House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, the Chair will just review Hansard to see the context in which the
hon. Premier has used the words that the hon. member has referred to.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

So his tactic of suggesting that it is people on this side of the House who
have been giving him information, therefore trying to cast doubt amongst the
people of Newfoundland and Labrador, has been fully and totally exposed.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: He has also insulted the bureaucrats of Newfoundland and
Labrador by suggesting they have been giving information as well, Mr. Speaker.
Now he is trying to deal with a story in the press from yesterday -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

- a story in the press that suggested a transmission line between Manitoba
and Ontario was discussed between the Prime Minister and the Premier of Ontario,
and I have asked to have information with respect to that collected right away.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, it was with great interest that I read
yesterday's National Post article entitled: PM touts Manitoba hydro dam
to Eves.

According to that article, which the Premier just referred to, the Prime
Minister raised the issue of the Manitoba dam with the Ontario Premier because
Ontario - poor Ontario - could not afford the cost of transmission lines from
Manitoba without federal assistance.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to now get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: The Premier of Manitoba said he was even encouraged by the
Prime Minister's intervention.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question now.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, my question for the Premier is: Why can't
the Premier of our Province convinced the Prime Minister that Newfoundlanders
and Labradorians are also Canadians, and that we deserve federal assistance to
develop our power project just as much as Manitoba and Ontario?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: And why is it that the Premiers of Ontario and Manitoba can
progress their energy plan with Ottawa when our Premier simply cannot?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That was a classic example of the tactic and approach of the Leader of the
Opposition. I do not jump to conclusions, Mr. Speaker, I get the facts.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is this: As soon as I
read the story yesterday, I instructed officials and others to find out the
background of it.

The Leader of the Opposition stands up today and would suggest to members of
this House and the people of the Province that there is already a deal struck
between Manitoba, Ontario, and the federal government. That is the approach that
the Leader of the Opposition takes. We are having it checked out because that is
the way we do business - cautiously, prudently - because we want to do it in the
best interest of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, not to grandstand and to play
politics with it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, this Premier stood in this House on Monday and
said that the Government of Canada is not prepared to consider funding for
megaprojects. Now, I can only read the paper. I am only the Leader of the
Opposition. This man is Premier of the Province; he should know that the Prime
Minister is prepared to consider this under the Kyoto Plan.

Mr. Speaker, for some reason, we, as a Province, as not leveraging our
bargaining power with Quebec as a result of their shortage of power in the next
decade. As well, we now know that the Prime Minister of Canada is determined to
ratify the Kyoto Accord in order to address climatic issues and change -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: - and you know, Premier, that he is now prepared to
consider funding on that basis.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier not agree that our cheap and our clean energy
in Labrador puts us in a favourable position to solicit federal support for
developing the Lower Churchill when the Prime Minister is now considering
supporting the Conawapa power project to reduce emissions in Manitoba and
Ontario?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We do know two things. There have been no agreements reached between Manitoba
and Ontario and the federal government with respect to any development. That is
a fact today. We do know, at least we thought until a few days ago, that the
Opposition shared with us the concerns about Kyoto because nobody knows what the
plan is. I thought we shared a view on that in a private member's motion here
a week ago Wednesday, where everybody voted together and said -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER GRIMES: Well, the Leader of the NDP did not - because there was
no certainty about what the plans are for the federal government, but we are
dealing with issues that are in our own control.

Mr. Speaker, we do know something else: that, if the Opposition has its way,
and this is the stated view on the public record of Newfoundland and Labrador,
it does not matter about the Government of Canada, whether they pay or not,
because his position, stated on Open Line and again reaffirmed in this House, is
that unless and until Quebec agrees to renegotiate the Upper Churchill contract,
the Lower Churchill will never be developed anyway supposing the Government of
Canada is willing to pay for all of it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Because his position is, it will never be done unless the
Upper Churchill contract is opened.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, it seems that everyone is interested,
including the Prime Minister, in helping Ontario and Manitoba, and certainly
including this government who is prepared to let billions of dollars worth of
our nickel, our cobalt and our copper go to Ontario and Manitoba as well.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, to a related subject on the Lower
Churchill, I ask -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question. He is on a supplementary.

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question,
quickly.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Does the Premier know that the Quebec newspaper, La Presse, reported
on Tuesday that most of the design and engineering work for the Lower Churchill
will be done in Quebec? Mr. Speaker, can the Premier please confirm that, in
fact, most of the design and engineering work on the Lower Churchill will be
done in Quebec?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I can confirm the exact opposite. The Leader of the Opposition suggested he
has documentation in his hands that he got from sources within this Cabinet and
within this caucus, which was found out today to be not true. Which is not true
now.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER GRIMES: Which is not true. So, he has the information and if he
is looking at the information that he has and he is not supposed to have,
because he wants us one minute to believe that he has it and that he got it from
a Cabinet Minister. He wants one minute -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: - to believe that he has it and he got it from a caucus
member. He wants us to believe that he has it and he got it from some
bureaucrats. He wants us to believe that he has and he got it through some
e-mails. He wants us to believe that he has the information and got it from some
brown envelopes. Well, read the information that you have or admit that you do
not have it, because you will find out that there is not only that statement in
the story in the press which is dead wrong, but several others in the same
story. I can confirm that for you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, if this project is subject to a fixed amount
of financing -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: - and if this project is subject to a fixed cost or a fixed
completion date, then the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is going to
have to do whatever it takes to meet those terms and avoid overruns or otherwise
lose ownership of the project.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier agree -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier agree that employment benefits to the people
of Newfoundland and Labrador could be compromised and, in fact, reduced
dramatically if it becomes necessary to employ Quebeckers to meet those
deadlines, which would be set by the people who are, in fact, loaning us the
money in the first place?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, now maybe we can use this question to get
back to the crux of the matter.

He talks about overruns and suggests now that he knows something, based on
information that he is supposed to have. He has now said to the media: I have
this information. Now he is denying that he has it. Either he has it or he does
not have it; because, Mr. Speaker, it cannot be both ways. You cannot stand up
and suggest that you asking questions on the basis of information because
otherwise he would have known the answer to the last question was that it was
dead wrong what was in La Presse. Absolutely dead wrong!

Maybe now we can suggest: Do you have information that you should not have?
Are you asking real questions or are you just grasping at straws to try to
create a negative attitude towards this project in Newfoundland and Labrador?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My next question is for the Minister of Justice.

Minister, could you please confirm for the people of Newfoundland and
Labrador that nowhere, anywhere in this deal or anywhere in any of these
contracts, have we waived or postponed our right to sue anywhere in this deal
with Quebec Hydro?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I believe the people of the Province are finally, maybe seeing through the
tactic used by the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Speaker, let me restate again. Our position clearly is this: When we are
finished the negotiations - because we are trying to do something for the
benefits of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians - we have already committed to the
people of Newfoundland and Labrador that we will disclose all of the detail, all
of the information, have a full debate, have a full debate in here, have a
standing vote and a free vote. That is the democratic process.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: I understand now that the Leader of the Opposition,
outside of the House, wants to talk quite openly and brag about the fact that he
has information from sources and maybe he is calling a rally to talk about the
details next Monday.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer, quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Whereas in here, if he really has the details he would
know that the question he asked about the La Presse was dead wrong.

Mr. Speaker, he has to make up his mind whether he wants the people of the
Province to believe that he has information and that he should tell us where he
got it because it did not get it from this crowd.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

I ask the hon. the Premier to take his seat.

MR. GRIMES: He did not get it from this crowd, Mr. Speaker, which is what
he was saying last week, and then we will deal with the facts.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Another question for the Minister of Justice, the lawyer in Cabinet, the
Attorney General for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Justice - the same question that I asked
the Minister of Energy yesterday - please confirm for this House and the people
of our Province that he has seen, and he has read, all documentation submitted
to the Board of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and that he supports each and
every condition contained therein, therefore he supports the deal as presented
to the Board of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro in its entirety?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What I would say and advise the hon. Leader of the Opposition, same as I did
in the Voisey debate, I will have the benefit of seeing all documentation, I am
sure, if and when a deal is struck. Similar to my comments on Voisey's, I look
forward to any loopholes that might exist, as he suggested in Voisey's and we
are still waiting to hear from.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, rather than operate in a fearmongering or
create the bogeyman scenario, as the Leader of the Opposition would like to do,
rest assured, that when there is a deal this minister will have his view of it
and his opinions of it.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture has a small capital
grants program that fishermen's committees throughout the Province can access
to do work on community fisheries infrastructures. The grants are usually small
in nature and in the order of $3,000 to $5,000.

Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm how much of the budget for this
program has been spent to date, and on what types of initiatives it has been
spent?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There is a program in the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture and it is
worth in the area of $300,000 to $350,000. The purpose of this program is to
help fisheries committees around the Province replace a few planks on their
wharves or to do something to their stages or whatnot. It is a very good
program, and I think all the members in the House who have availed of it will
tell you it is probably one of the best ones that we have in the Province.

I do not know exactly how much I have spent in that program right now, Mr.
Speaker, but I can certainly have that information for the member in the next
couple of days.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, he is right, it is a good program and a lot of committees do
avail of it.

Mr. Speaker, the Premier's good news ad campaign has cost approximately
$250,000 and the Premier says that it has come from existing departmental
communications budgets. I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries and
Aquaculture this: Did any, and if so how much, of the money from the department's
grant program went to cover the cost of the Premier's ad campaign?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I don't know where the hon. member is coming from but I am not aware that
one cent from that program has been spent on any ads.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, the hon. the Member for The Straits
&White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, Mr. Speaker, that is different from the information that I have. I have
been given information that the grant budget has been, effectively, exhausted,
that in excess of $50,000 has been taken from this program to cover the Premier's
ad campaign.

Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm that the program money from the
Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture has been taken to cover the Premier's
ad campaign?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I think that the information the hon. member has
is much like the information his leader is always talking about, he is floating
around here all the time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Put the information forward.

Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that one cent of that capital grant program, Sir,
has been spent on anything other than wharfs and slipways around this Province
for the benefit of Newfoundland and Labrador fishermen and fisherwomen.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are to the Minister of Finance.

I want to ask the minister, why she is allowing a company such as Archean
Resources to pay 20 per cent on a net smelter royalty and an overall tax burden
of 57.34 per cent, when a multi-billion dollar company such as Inco only has to
pay a tax rate of 46 per cent?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I think the question will be more telling
than the answer, and I will say that, that piece of legislation has been in
place since 1975. I think it might have even been brought in during the Tories
time in government, when they were the actual government. I would say, Mr.
Speaker, the member opposite knows that every corporation in the Province pays a
corporate income tax. The member also knows, I would imagine, that when they pay
their federal portion, they pay out the dividends, they get a 5 per cent rebate.
Still, Mr. Speaker, the bottom line is, even with this 20 per cent tax that we
are imposing - and we make no apologies for imposing a royalty tax for
non-renewable resources that everyone in this Province owns. The members
opposite are always standing on their feet saying we are not getting enough
royalties. What way is it, Mr. Speaker?

I can say that the money we get, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of this royalty tax
is going into our health care system, and I would still say that the 3 per cent
royalty regime -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer, quickly.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: - that Archean Resources negotiated and the millions and
millions and millions they have, we are happy they are getting it, but we are
also quite happy that we are getting our royalties to put into the health care
services for the people of our Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This was brought in on the conclusion of the Goundrey Commission in 1976, the
levy of taxes on companies or individuals who could contractually transfer the
right to mine. There is no other province in this country collecting it, and
this Province never collected it on Nugget Pond until Archean initiated some
legal action and then they collected from them so they would be able to cover
their backs on this particular issue here.

I say to the minister, you should be aware, as minister, of the impact that
exportation companies are going to have, because they go to areas to avoid high
taxation, to areas of lower taxation, and we are not competitive.

I want to ask the minister: Has she considered the impact that this is having
on exploration in our Province, and for many years to come?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows that future
exploration expenses can be deducted, so that is the answer to the first
question, but a bigger question is: Am I ascertaining - because I would not
create innuendo, but I will ask the question. Does it mean, if that member
formed a part of a government, that they would allow millionaires to keep the
millions and not put it in to the people of the Province for our health care
programs and services? Is that the agenda over there? Because this side, this
government, we make no apology for collecting the due royalty regime that is due
for the people of our Province for the delivery of health care services. It has
been in the legislation and, Mr. Speaker, more importantly, has been omitted. It
has gone to the courts twice.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer quickly.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Once, to the Trial Division, which they lost; secondly,
to the Court of Appeal, and the Court of Appeal unanimously upheld government's
decision. So, Mr. Speaker, we are on the side of the people here and that is
where we are staying.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Every single group in this Province - Newfoundland and Labrador Chamber of
Mineral Resources, the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada,
Newfoundland and Labrador prospectors, have all indicated it is going to
(inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.

MR. SULLIVAN: I ask the minister one simple question: Are you saying that
Archean are wealthier than Inco?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, only Archean can answer that question, but
I can say unequivocally, this government makes no apology for collecting a 20
per cent royalty on a non-renewable resource that every single person in
Newfoundland and Labrador owns. We are proud of Archean Resources. We wish them
all the best with their good fortune.

Mr. Speaker, with the money we collect, we have no problem putting it into
health care for the people of our Province, and we make no apology. We do not
know what they are doing with their money, but we wish them well with it and we
are happy for them. We know what we are doing with our money, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Premier.

About ten days ago, the Premier said that negotiations were all but concluded
and that we could expect an announcement on the Lower Churchill some time last
week. He had concluded with the Innu, he had concluded with Hydro-Quebec. Will
the Premier confirm to this House that the only people that the Premier was
negotiating by mid to last week were his own caucus?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I have known the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi for a long time and I did
not know he had that much of a sense of humor. It was actually pretty good.

Mr. Speaker, the fact of matter is this: I wanted to send a signal to all the
people of Newfoundland and Labrador that we, this government, have worked hard
at a negotiation with respect to the development of the Lower Churchill at Gull
Island, and that we are trying to get to the very final stages of negotiation,
and that if things go well we could do it fairly quickly. I wanted to send that
message very clearly so we could start focusing on a debate and be ready for it
when we do conclude and present information to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Any issue that is outstanding, because I did indicate that we were not
finished but we could be by the end of the week - and I did indicate that we
were not finished with the Innu, and we still are not, Mr. Speaker, and those
two pieces have to come together, but it has been useful for two weeks because
what we found is that we have a Leader of the NDP who I understand is willing to
wait to get the information and cast judgement at the time, which is what we
found that the people of Labrador were willing to do yesterday, Mr. Speaker.
They would like to get the information and then make a judgement. They do not
want to prejudge, like the Leader of the Opposition has already done.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: The Leader of the Opposition has already prejudged that
this is bad, this is no good, he will never sign it -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - and unless the Upper Churchill is renegotiated, they
will never do it, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi
Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Will the Premier not confirm that the full tentative deal that he had last
week was presented to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Board, the financial
terms, the benefits to this Province, the full parameters of the recall rights
and the rates of return to this Province? Will he not confirm that they were
presented to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Board last week for their
consideration?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Board
was presented with a framework agreement and some pre-release agreements that
were very close to their final form, and ready to be signed if we could conclude
the agreement on them. They were also, because they needed to have it, Mr.
Speaker, provided with some, I guess what are called term sheets or working text
in terms of negotiating documents that were not yet negotiated but were being
negotiated for things. There were also some dates in there of things that will
happen next year, the year after, the year after, and will be concluded at
certain points in time, because they needed to have that information. They were
asked to make a serious decision about having their president and CEO sign on to
going to the next steps and start spending some money, and asked to make a
serious decision about creating a subsidiary of Hydro which could build the
project for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. So they were provided in
confidence - in confidence - the Leader of the Opposition takes great glee in
suggesting that he has the information - so they could do their work and report
back to us, because they take their task -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: - very seriously on behalf of the people of Newfoundland
and Labrador, and so do we.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

MR. LUSH: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, as all hon. members would know, a number of our
rules come from precedent, and I respectfully ask Your Honour to comment on the
circumstance with respect to points of order during Question Period.

I know that it has been a precedent in the last number of years to try to
discourage points of order during Question Period because that interrupts the
flow, and I know that I had tried to observe this rule. I do not believe that I
have ever transgressed that particular rule. Mr. Speaker, I have noticed that
the hon. the Opposition House Leader has, on a couple of occasions, stood up
during the Question Period. Now, both sides can play that game. I do not want to
do it because I like to see Question Period flow in its natural flow and with
its fluidity. Maybe if hon. members know the rules, know what we do, then they
would not continuously abuse the rules.

MR. E. BYRNE: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make three points. First of
all, the hon. Government House Leader either knows or ought to know, that while
it is not recommended to rise on a point of order in Question Period, it is not
against the rules to do so.

Secondly, I want to let the Government House Leader also know that any time
that the Leader of the Opposition and the leader on this side of the House,
where allegations are going to be made against him or motives are going to be
impugned to him, then we will rise immediately at any point.

The third point I would like to make, Mr. Speaker, is this: I propose to the
Government House Leader, when you have your next caucus meeting, have a chat
with the Premier and if he is willing to fall within the parliamentary language,
I guarantee you I will not rise on a point of order during Question Period.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to comment on who used
unparliamentary language. That is a known fact in this House. I am not going to
get down to that level, but I just want to say to the hon. the Opposition House
Leader, if he is going to insist that he is not going to abide by the rules -
and I quite understand; I do not need any pontification from him what the rules
of the House are. I clearly pointed out that it is a precedent in this House,
that it is established by precedent, our Standing Orders do allow it but over
the last number of years we have been devout in a precedent that it not be done
and I simply ask for the Speaker's interpretation, for his clarification,
without getting into any wrangle as the Opposition House Leader feels that he is
obligated to do every time somebody raises a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair will take the point raised by the Government House
Leader under advisement.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have been asked to present a petition on behalf of over 450 residents of
Newfoundland and Labrador, spanning all across the Province, and indeed several
from my own district. The petition reads:

To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland in legislative session
convened. The petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland and
Labrador;

WHEREAS the government has requested the Board of Regents to consider a name
change of our University; and

WHEREAS Memorial University of Newfoundland is excluded under the
Newfoundland & Labrador Act; and

WHEREAS publicly funding universities can be named for a region of a
province; and

WHEREAS when other political entities changed, the name of the university
within it did not; and

WHEREAS our educational mandate is not limited to this Province; and

WHEREAS the University is on the Island of Newfoundland; and

WHEREAS the first university in other provinces did not reflect the entire
name of the province; and

WHEREAS there will be enormous costs to undergo this name change; and

WHEREAS there are enormous disadvantages to not having a geographic identity
attached to the University; and

WHEREAS another proposed university in this Province is more suitable to have
Labrador added to its name;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador
to retain the current name, Memorial University of Newfoundland, as in duty
bound your petitioners will ever pray.

As I said, Mr. Speaker, this petition has been forwarded to me from over 450
residents of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. They find a problem
with, I guess, the political correctness of bringing forward a situation where
Memorial University of Newfoundland would be changed to Memorial University of
Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, there are many reasons that have been heard right across the
Province over the past number of months, since this became an issue with the
people and the people have put forward this issue and signed their names to the
petition because they believe that there is no need for this. The people here,
as I said, over 450 of those people believe that there is no need to change the
name of Memorial University of Newfoundland to Memorial University of
Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to present this petition on behalf of these people
today, as we have done with petitions that have come forward here in the House
on numerous occasions. It is important that the government take into
consideration the views and opinions of all people in the Province as they make
any decisions. These 450 people just wanted to make sure that their views are
heard here in this hon. House, and I am pleased to present this petition on
behalf of these people today.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Motion 6, Mr. Speaker. I move first reading of Bill 25, An Act
to Amend The Access To Information And Protection Of Privacy Act.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General to introduce a
bill, "An Act To Amend The Access To Information And Protection Of Privacy
Act." (Bill 25)

On motion, Bill 25 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. LUSH: Motion 7, Mr. Speaker. I move first reading of Bill 27, An Act
to Amend The Forestry Act.

Motion, the hon. the Minister Forest Resources and Agrifoods to introduce a
bill, "An Act To Amend The Forestry Act." (Bill 27)

On motion, Bill 27 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 17, Mr. Speaker, second reading of a bill, An Act To
Amend The Teachers' Association Act. (Bill 26)

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Teachers'
Association Act." (Bill 26)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table in the House today amendments to the
Teachers' Association Act. These amendments have been requested by the
Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association is established as a
legal entity under the Teachers' Association Act. The act establishes the
Association, describes its objectives and functions, provides for an annual
meeting and provides for a president, vice-president and the number of members
to be elected to the executive committee.

The NLTA, by resolution of its convention, has decided to hold biennial
rather than annual meetings. Subsequently, the NLTA has requested that the
Teachers' Association Act be amended to give effect to this change. The
proposed amendments to the Teachers' Association Act change the requirement to
hold annual meetings to a requirement to hold a biennial meeting, provide that
the number of members constituting the executive committee will be determined by
the bylaws of the Association and provide that the executive elected at the last
election should hold office until the next election.

I look forward to this amendment being approved by the House in support of
the NLTA.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to offer full support to Bill 26, An Act To Amend The Teachers'
Association Act. It is a bill which has been requested by the Association, an
Association that I am very proud to say that I have been a part of for something
onwards of a quarter of a century. Not only myself, but a number of members in
this House also were part of that Teachers' Association.

These changes, again, requested by the Teachers' Association and changes
that have been brought about by, I guess, progression with regard to the
Association. This Association, I do not know if it is the oldest labour
association in the Province, but certainly it is one of the oldest. I think it
was only five or six years ago that they celebrated their 100 years as an
association. That Association was groundbreaking with regard to - I would say
leaders, Mr. Speaker, would be a better word, right through the full century and
some years - looking after the welfare of teachers, their spouses and survivors.
Of course, not only did they look after the welfare of their members and
families of those members, but the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers'
Association - a big part of their mission is not only the welfare of their
members but the welfare of the children of this Province. They have been given
the, I guess, responsibility of delivering education to them.

I say to you, Mr. Speaker, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers'
Association, again, they have a very, very long and proud history. Just to take
some time to bring up to the present day the reason for these changes. As an
association - going back well over 100 years - there were many, many milestones
associated with this group. In particular, of course, in the early 1970s, Mr.
Speaker, the collective bargaining that they were able to negotiate and bring
about a tremendous change in, I guess, the way that teachers were looked upon
and dealt with, with regard to, not only pay, but working conditions and so
forth.

The turning point for the Association regarding collective bargaining was in
the late 1960s, early 1970s. What happened back in those times, certainly it
followed through right up until this present day, because many of the teachers,
who are still in the system almost thirty years later, began their teaching
career in the early 1970s and were very strong in making the life of a teacher
and the lives of students better in this Province. Not only collective
bargaining and, again, the welfare of the teachers, Mr. Speaker, but teachers
down through the hundred-and-some years, that this Association has been into
effect, have seen such tremendous changes.

I look at the 1960s and the Warren Commission, I believe in 1967, and again,
teachers were a big part of lobbying for changes that were to come about at that
particular time. Fast forward up into the 1990s with regard to the Williams
Report and, once again, teachers were front and centre in putting forth what
they thought were the best interests of the students of this Province. So, they
have been involved in making the learning environments, I guess, of this
Province better learning environments, the collective bargaining.

Also, I might add, Mr. Speaker, that they have not forgotten their social
responsibility either. When we talk about social responsibility, what comes to
mind is one of their, I guess, efforts to make the lives of children a little
bit easier in this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Every year in our
schools throughout the Province, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers'
Association sponsor a Janeway Day where there is a collection made from the
members for different events. All of this money is brought together and given to
the Janeway. Again, in support of some of their particular programs.

This Association, Mr. Speaker, has always had the ability to deal with
changing times. I guess there is not enough time for me to go back over the
120-some odd years that this Association has been into effect, to highlight how
the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association have been able to gauge
the times, and not only react to the times, but have the vision to react before
changes are necessary. The membership is a strong membership, and the work that
they carry out on behalf of the education system in this Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador is astonishing, and I am sure I join with all members
of this House in congratulating this Association for their long and proud
history.

Of course the Association, I would say, is no stronger than the membership,
and throughout this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, the Island and the
Labrador portion, there have been branches of this Association is in every nook
and cranny of this particular Province. We all know that schools played an
important role, not only in education but in the social fabric of this Province,
and schools played a key role, especially in many of the rural districts, as a
community focal point, as a community centre, as a place where the communities
surrounding that school certainly took great pride in the school itself. So the
branch network throughout this Province involves - and again just in a general
sense - we are looking at something like 6,000 teachers and perhaps as many as
2,000 supply teachers, so somewhere in the vicinity of about 8,000 teachers make
up the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association. These are
highly-skilled, highly-educated professional who not only give to - as I pointed
out, Mr. Speaker - the education system. You only have to look throughout
Newfoundland and Labrador and look at the volunteer organizations, and there are
many - church related, community related: the Lions, the different groups that
are out there - and I would be very much surprised if you did not find teachers
involved in these organizations. Teachers not only give during the working hours
that schools are open, but in many, many cases you will find that teachers have
a leadership role in community life as well, and the Newfoundland and Labrador
Teachers' Association support those efforts of teachers over and beyond, I
guess, their professional lives.

With that in mind too, Mr. Speaker, I certainly would like to again talk
about the members of this Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association who
are involved in volunteer activities outside the regular school hours in
extracurricular. The extracurricular of the membership of the Newfoundland and
Labrador Teachers' Association - if you were to look at the hours that
teachers spend beyond the classroom, beyond the school, in dealing with
students, taking them on outings, coaching them on various sports teams, their
drama clubs, their public speaking clubs, I tell you, you could almost match up
the number of hours they spend in the classroom with the number of hours that
they devote to extracurricular.

There is great pride amongst our teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador, great
pride in what they do and how they do it. It is very, very important that, when
we are given the opportunity, as we are given right now, when teachers come - in
this case, I guess, it is housekeeping to some degree, but it is important that
we continue to support our teachers in Newfoundland and Labrador, and we support
them in any way possible. They are front line when it comes to opportunity for
the children of Newfoundland and Labrador. We must, I say, Mr. Speaker, stand up
and do everything we can as legislators, do everything we can as a government,
to give these teachers the opportunity not only to do their work within the
classroom but also to encourage them to use their skills in extracurricular
activities and volunteer activities throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

To get back to the bill, Mr. Speaker, An Act To Amend The Teachers'
Association Act, I referenced a little earlier, in my comments, that the
Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association certainly have, in my mind - I
may be a little bit biased - but in my mind they seem to have been always on the
leading edge of, I guess, social change, labour change. They were involved in,
certainly, the fight for collective bargaining in this Province. They have
lobbied hard for better working conditions in our schools, because better
working conditions for teachers, Mr. Speaker, certainly mean better learning
conditions for our students.

Over the last number of years, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers'
Association has certainly gone ahead with regard to a change, I guess, Mr.
Speaker, in how they do business as an association. This bill reflects the
changes that have come about because of changes they have put into their
Association. We know their Association is governed by an act of the Legislature,
and that is great support for this particular Association, but it wasn't so
long ago, Mr. Speaker, that the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers'
Association were simply the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. They were one
of the first associations that I am aware of that, certainly, changed their name
to include the Labrador portion of our Province in their title.

MR. LUSH: (Inaudible) big audience.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know, and I hope that is not indicative, I say to the
Government House Leader, of the support that I see on that side for the teachers
of our Province.

I see people are starting to trickle back in. I would imagine that, as they
continue to listen -

MS FOOTE: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, I know. I certainly would say to the Minister of
Education, that any time, Minister, I get a chance to talk about the wonderful
teachers in Newfoundland and Labrador, I am going to talk about them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: I would say to you that Mr. Speaker is going to have to
sit me down, because I have so many good things that I can say about the
teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador that it would take me more than the twenty
minutes that has been given to me.

MS FOOTE: You are not allowed to ask me any questions. Go for it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. Maybe I will incorporate some questions that I am
sure the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association may want you to
answer.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: I think we will leave it at that, Minister, and I will go
back to talking about, once again, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers'
Association.

What I was talking about, before the Government House Leader indicated that
the audience on that side is not very much, but I must say the audience on this
side of the House are very attentive and certainly, not necessarily sitting on
the edge of their seats, but they are listening.

To get back to it, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association was
one of the first associations that I know of that certainly - and the resolution
at one of their annual general meetings clearly stated that they wanted to make
a statement to show that their Association dealt not only with the Island part
of it but certainly the whole Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. They put, I
would imagine it was a unanimous resolution, forward that certainly changed the
name of that Association from Newfoundland Teachers' Association to
Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association.

The reason that I would bring up that particular point is, once again, to
indicate to the House here how they have, as an association, dealt with changing
times and reacted to changing times and have been visionary in many different
ways in dealing with what is going on in the world around us. As we all know,
change is so prevalent. Of course, without change we are never going to move
forward, but reacting to change - because we know change is there, it is
inevitable - getting ahead of change and getting out front of change so that
there would be a smooth transition, this is where the Newfoundland and Labrador
Teachers' Association certainly have proven over their history that they have
the vision, the capability, of jumping out ahead of things.

With that in mind, again I bring to the attention of the House that it was a
couple of years ago that this same Association saw that annual conventions were
costly, that annual conventions certainly could be turned from annual to
biannual, that by looking at an annual general meeting - I guess every two years
- that they could save money but not at the expense, of course, of their
Association. These annual general meetings were very, very important to bring
the delegates from all around the Province in to a centre, usually St. John's,
to discuss the business of that particular Association - the finances of it and
the changes that were required. It worked very, very successfully. Again, the
Association saw that they could, and many other associations throughout, I
guess, North America, were looking at the same thing, but the Newfoundland and
Labrador Teachers' Association certainly got out front and did that.

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the 1990s - and it is the 1990s that I am
referring to because, once again, even though, as I pointed out, the
Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association have been there well over 100
years. We know, when we look at the 1990s, how much change came within a
relatively short period of time. The Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers'
Association did not shirk their responsibility in the 1990s to lobby, to make
their opinions known. They did not shirk from their responsibility of standing
up and complimenting changes on government's part or, on the other hand,
condemning some of the practices that were taking away from the delivery of
education to our children.

The 1990s were a difficult period of time for the Association because during
the 1990s, especially during the 1990s, not only did we see a decrease in the
number of students but naturally what was to follow would be a decrease in the
number of teachers as well. The number of teachers during the 1990s have dropped
dramatically and this has affected the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers'
ability, I suppose, to provide the services that are necessary to run an
association and to protect the welfare of not only the teachers, which they
serve, but certainly the children.

When we look at the 1990s, once again, as I pointed out to you, I guess to
try and help the situation of declining number of teachers, to try and help the
finances of the Association, that they reacted and reacted in a positive way,
and set up their Association so that annual general meetings would be every two
years. Not only did they take care of their own particular business but they
also, during the 1990s, had to contend with a situation where there were
tremendous changes being placed upon their membership to carry the load of
bringing about restructuring of the physical plants, the schools, because
schools were being closed down and school boards were being shut down - I guess,
from twenty-seven of the school boards to the eleven. The Association certainly
were left, and sometimes scrambling, to try to maintain - when I say the
Association, the members of that Association were left scrambling - and trying
to make sure that the level of education, that the quality, Mr. Speaker, of
education was as good, if not better, than when we entered the 1990s.

I tell you, Mr. Speaker, it was a struggle; a struggle that still goes on as
the Association, once again, tries to put before the government of the day
proposals to make sure that our quality of education is one that we can be proud
of. I am certainly proud of the work that the teachers are doing and the
Association. The Association, in the 1990s, responded, Mr. Speaker, to the
Williams Report. They responded, and whether their recommendations were looked
at or not is another question but they did respond. They did put forward what
they thought was the position of their teachers, to make sure that the quality
of education remained at a high.

When the Canning Report came out in 1996, it was the NLTA, again, that
certainly supported that report. Not only supported it, because the Canning
Report basically dealt with special needs within our particular system. One of
the areas which the government put forth as a response to the special needs of
children in our system is they came up with a Pathways Program; a Pathways
Program that, on paper, is certainly as solid as any program that I know but,
Mr. Speaker, the NLTA were front and foremost in indicating that even if you
have a program on paper, and that you can do the diagnosis, that you can sit
down and say what is best for any individual child in the system, what the NLTA
and what teachers and other groups in this Province said is: you must have the
resources to make sure that the teachers can do the work, so that they can put
forth a program for any child, that is in the best interest of the child.

Through the 1990s the resourcing of the special needs have been put front and
foremost for the teachers of this Province, for the NLTA, in making sure that
the government realizes, that the Minister of Education realizes, that
resourcing properly - it is not enough to say that something should done. It
must follow through with a statement that it will be done.

The Pathways, even to this day, there are still difficulties with regard to
the implementation of the special needs program. I would be the first to admit
that the teachers of this Province have taken that Pathways Program and taken it
from a point where it was a difficulty to where many of the children in our
Province are getting the best possible programming, but there are still gaps. I
am sure that the government and the NLTA will, hopefully, continue to work to
bring about - but, Mr. Speaker, it is the NLTA that I compliment for making
themselves present, making themselves vocal, and pushing to get the very best;
not only for the teachers, because oftentimes we hear the NLTA: You know, that
is only for teachers. The NLTA, and I stand firm in saying, that they, too, are
not only looking after the welfare of the teachers of this Province but they
look after the welfare of the students of this Province and, certainly, that is
where it is.

Again, with the Association, Mr. Speaker, I pointed out they have been on the
leading edge of making sure that their name was inclusive of every region of
this Province; the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association. In
difficult times they have tightened up their belts, cancelled their AGMs, and
looked at every second year. Also, one of the latest developments - and I assume
that is probably why this amendment has come in - was with regard to the
selection of their president and vice-president - I do not know but it is the
whole executive. They have decided - and it was decided two years ago at the
last convention - that they would go to direct democracy in the election of
their president and vice-president. I am not sure about the others. I am looking
at my colleague there. I am not sure if it is president, vice-president
province-wide. The direction is that the NLTA have decided that they are going
to go to direct democracy so that every teacher in the Province will be given a
vote as to who will lead their Association for two years.

It is an interesting concept that has been floated, not only in labour
associations, but also in political parties and indeed, in elections in the
various provinces or territories, you hear it come up every so often. I
certainly would take my hat off to the NLTA for them moving to this point where
they have now really a situation -

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you still active in the NLTA.

MR. HEDDERSON: I would love to be active in the NLTA, but as a teacher on
leave my membership is not recognized. Certainly, the NLTA has been very good to
me, I say to the minister.

AN HON. MEMBER: It has been good to lots of people.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, exactly. It has been good to lots of people and I see
in its future nothing but positive things as they continue to grapple with the
demands that have been placed upon them.

To get back to the direct democracy model that they have approached to decide
who will be the leaders in their particular Association for two years. I might
add, Mr. Speaker, it was not just a: let's do this. This is an issue that has
been debated in that Association now for many years. It has been brought to the
floor, it has been duly debated and the resolution passed, and it is a situation
now where every teacher in this Province can now say that they do have a say in
how their Association is being run. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, what a model for
the students of our Province when they look to their teachers - that is an
aspect that I have not even touched upon yet, is the respect that the teachers
garner, not only in the larger society, but with regard to the students. Here
you have now an Association, the NLTA, who can literally, when they talk
democracy in their classrooms, when they talk about how the young people of this
Province should be involved in civics, in elections or understanding the
democracy of our country, they can say to the children of this Province that
they, in fact, practice the most direct of all democracies, which is, one vote
for every member of that particular Association.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association, Mr. Speaker, can be
very, very proud of not only where they have come from but where they are going.
The challenges for this Association never cease. They never cease because once
again there is a spectre - a head of this Association - as we see the
out-migration of this Province. It may have slowed but it continues; and not
only the out-migration but they have to contend with the decrease in the birth
rate as well. They are factors that they have to take into account, and they
have to scramble to address these challenges, and the challenges that are
forward for them are many and varied.

The thing about it, Mr. Speaker, is that the challenges are almost like
coming full circle. I mentioned to you earlier, or I mentioned to the House
earlier, that this Association is well over 100 years of age. They are the
original pioneers of education in our Province. They came into very, very small
communities with small numbers and had to teach, in many cases, in one-room
schools on a K to12 - it wasn't K to 12 at the time, it would have been I to
XI - and they had to be very, very creative in delivering to these small
numbers, in small communities, a broad education.

I would suspect, and I do not know for sure because I do not know the history
of the members who are in this House today, that some of the members in this
House today were educated in one-room schools in small communities. When they
reflect back on those times, because I can guarantee you that even though they
might have been in a school of five, ten, fifteen or twenty children, they were
given the best education that they could get at that particular time - a broad
education. I would suspect there might even be some members in this House who
actually taught in those sorts of situations.

Mr. Speaker, to get back, because I am looking at the challenges that the
NLTA have on their plate for the future, and I mentioned that it seems like what
goes around perhaps comes around because, with the out-migration, with the
decrease in the birth rate, with the declining number of students, we are now
going from the schools of 200 and 300 to smaller schools of less than twenty
children in some of the more isolated, not necessarily isolated but I guess some
of the more rural areas, and now we have certainly specialized, or the NLTA have
certainly encouraged their teachers to specialize, in the different disciplines
of science, social studies, history, language arts, or math. Most of the schools
could have at least a staff that reflected the different disciplines, but now we
find that the challenge is - and the NLTA are part of this challenge - how can
we now offer an education in some of these smaller schools whereby the equality
of education will be as good as anything in the Province, and a quality of
education that I feel would be in the best interest of the children. Now the
NLTA has the challenge of having in their membership, teachers who can go out in
those situations and be, what I might consider, an all-purpose teacher, a
teacher who can take twenty children and not only look at bringing them through
probably thirteen grades but also to be able to use the technology that is
available today to bring into that small school a quality of instruction -
through them, I guess - that is again comparable to any school in the Province.

These are the challenges not only, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, of the NLTA,
but the teachers who make up that organization, and it is most important that we
continue to encourage the quality of education that is necessary.

The NLTA have always been part of making sure that they are there to move
with the times, to change with the times, to adjust to the times, to be able to
do what is best or what is in the best interest of the children. We know that
the NLTA have done an exceptional job, and continues to do an exceptional job,
and that we certainly can support them in every way that we can in order to
bring out the very, very best in our children.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: I just heard from my colleague here -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, down at the end - that maybe I am hogging too much
time. Again - and I certainly apologize to the House - once I get on my feet and
I am talking about teachers, I tell you, it is very difficult to sit me down. My
House Leader is probably saying that maybe it is time for me to sit down.

I would like to end off by saying that this bill draws to our attention the
history of this great Association. It brings to our attention the changes that
have come about in that Association. It certainly should conjure up in our mind
the challenges that the teachers of the Twenty-First Century have in delivering
a quality education to the children of this Province.

I certainly support not only this bill but I say I support the NLTA to the
fullest and I wish them well as they continue on, to take care of our most
valuable, valuable, valuable resource, the children of Newfoundland and
Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER (Mercer): The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to rise this afternoon to support this bill and to
compliment my friend, the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne, on such a lengthy
but interesting presentation; a presentation that emanates from his many years
as a primary and elementary principal and also, of course, from his
twenty-something years of involvement with the NLTA.

Mr. Speaker, the principle of this bill is supported, I believe, by all
members of this House. It is a self-governance issue for the NLTA, but we on
this side cannot miss this opportunity to raise a few issues that are of some
concern to the teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador. We certainly want to say
up front that we agree with the change. It is an issue that the NLTA executive
and members have requested. We have no interest in deciding whether or not they
have their annual conventions every year or every second year. Let them be the
group that will make that decision.

However, because we are talking about an education matter it lets us, in this
House, address some issues that affect the teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador
and affect the deliverance of education programs in our schools. Certainly, my
colleague just mentioned the need to put more resources in our classrooms. We
have identified many needs, many special needs in our schools, but this
government has not put the resources in the classrooms that let the teachers be
able to do as effective a job as they would like to do in maximizing the
learning opportunities for those children who have those special needs.

Mr. Speaker, we know that there are always going to be more needs in the
school system than we can address on a daily basis, but certainly we call upon
this government to look at what it is doing, to look at what progresses we have
really made after the Williams Royal Commission Report.

MR. LUSH: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Listening to hon. members, Mr. Speaker, this bill is about the
governance of the body of the NLTA. It has nothing to do with instruction in the
school, Mr. Speaker, nothing in the world. That is so far away from this topic.
This is dealing with the governance of the NLTA. It talks about allowing them to
have biannual meetings. It has to do with the structure of their Association,
nothing to do with the workload of teachers, absolutely nothing. I ask the
teachers of this Province, who are observing this, why it is that the Opposition
is not giving quick passage to this bill so that we can allow the teachers to
carry out the governance of their organization the way that they want to.

I stress, Mr. Speaker, that this is about - I bring to Your Honour's
attention the order concerning relevancy. This is not relevant to the bill. It
is so remote that it is not even close. We are talking about the governance of
the NLTA, of structure. Not about instruction. Not about workload. Nothing
associated with that kind of thing and I ask hon. members to get on with
speaking to what the bill is all about; what the purpose of this bill is, Mr.
Speaker, to structure the governance of the NLTA.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader is trying to leave
the impression, I believe - I do not know if he is or not - but it seems to me
that we are holding up passage. This is the second speaker on Bill 26. There are
nineteen members in the Opposition, all of which have a right to speak to every
bill if they so wish to.

Now, the second point that the Government House Leader has brought to the
attention of the Chair is the notion of relevance. Second reading of any bill,
in terms of dealing with An Act To Amend The Teachers' Association Act, when
we get into a clause-by-clause debate in Committee stage, Mr. Speaker, we will
deal with the details clause-by-clause of the bill.

With respect to the points that my hon. colleague from Waterford Valley was
making, he is a past member of the NLTA. He is a past teacher. He is a past
principal. The changes that are -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Pardon me?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: The changes that are reflected in this bill deal exactly
with - and I will read it: "The Bill would amend the Teachers'
Association Act to make a number of changes to the governance provisions
that have been requested by the association."

Mr. Speaker, that gives some latitude, I would say to you, for members to
talk about the NLTA, the governance of the NLTA, things that will occur to
biennial convention, the welfare of teachers and the -

The member was not up speaking about Gull Island. The member was not speaking
about the Adoption Act. The member was not speaking about a wharf that was put
in Reefs Harbour. The member was speaking strictly about Bill 26, the welfare of
teachers, An Act To Amend The Teachers' Association Act. Mr. Speaker, our
point of view is that he has every right and he was within the rules and was
relevant.

MR. LUSH: A further point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the Government House Leader.

This will be the final interjection.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, on second reading members are to talk about the
principle of the bill, and the principle of this bill is dealing with the
governance provisions requested by the NLTA. Nothing to do, as I have said
before, with instruction. Nothing to do with workload. Why don't hon. members
get on with the job? I ask Your Honour to please have hon. members observe the
relevancy rule in this House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, could I just make one further point to the
point of order?

MR. SPEAKER: It will be the final point to the point of order.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

One section of the act - you talk about relevance, and the Government House
Leader says we are not relevant. Section 1.(i) part of the act strictly says,
"promoting the welfare of the teachers in the province by setting up and
administering those subsidiary services that the biennial meeting or convention
may decide."

Mr. Speaker, when you are talking about the welfare of teachers, I don't
see it in this act where it says the welfare of teachers - this bill talks about
a, b, c, d or e. It talks about the welfare of teachers that maybe is ascribed
at a biennial convention. I say, Mr. Speaker, that gives the latitude to speak
about the welfare of teachers in general principle.

The fact of the matter is, Mr Speaker, this is only the second speaker to
Bill 26. The Government House Leader - and finally, let me say this - talk about
holding up passage: Is he saying today that this act will be proclaimed today?
No. The traditional practice is that when bills go through all of the stages,
First Reading, Second Reading, Committee Stage, Third Reading, the
Lieutenant-Governor at the closing of the fall session walks in here signs the
bills and then sometime after Christmas Cabinet proclaims them. Don't be so
silly. Let the member get on and speak to the bill and to the welfare of
teachers in the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Prior to the Government House Leader making his interjection dealing with
relevancy, the Speaker was, in fact, reading Section 48 dealing with the point,
dealing with relevancy.

MR. NOEL: You had the section (inaudible) in your own mind.

MR. SPEAKER: If you wish to become the Speaker, Sir.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: I would ask members of this hon. House to respect the
section dealing with relevancy and to confine their comments to the matters
contained in the legislation. Any and all members can speak, of course, to the
bill and they will be given their full twenty minutes if they so wish to take
them.

The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, what we have just witnessed is an attempt by the Government
House Leader to try to express to this House his frustration, and, in doing so,
he is trying to deny members on this side an opportunity to compliment the
teachers of this Province, an opportunity to bring out the points relative to
the governance of education in this Province. In clause 2 it says that this bill
is about promoting the welfare of teachers in the Province. When we talk about
promoting the welfare of teachers, we can't do that without talking about
promoting the welfare of our children.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: Therefore, when I talk about children, I talk about
education, I talk about the fact that many of them go to school hungry and we
talk about all the issues surrounding curriculum, because that is talking about
the welfare of the children of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, for that member to stand up and say that what I was talking
about was irrelevant, what he is saying is that clause 2 of this particular bill
means nothing to him. He is saying that this bill is not about promoting the
welfare of teachers and promoting our educational system. I suggest to the
member, when he stands next time he should make sure he reads clause 2 before he
gets on with that drivel that he was getting on with when he was trying to raise
a point of order.

Mr. Speaker, I stood here last year and I stand here now, as a member who has
participated in education for thirty years. I stand here, as well, as a former
administration. I have seen the frustration of teachers when they haven't got
the means to do the job that they are required to do. I have seen the
frustration of parents when they come to their principal and say: When can my
child have the resources that are needed to promote that child's education? I
have seen the frustration of a whole community. In fact, just yesterday I stood
in this House and complimented the Father John B. Kent Council of the Knights of
Columbus at Mary Queen of the World, who are forming a group to get together to
help out with literacy in their school. We compliment them.

All that we are talking about here is all about promoting the welfare of
teachers, promoting the welfare of our children, promoting what is good for our
communities. For that member to stand and say that what I was saying was
irrelevant is an insult to the teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: - is an insult to the parents of Newfoundland and
Labrador, and, most of all, is an insult to the young children of this Province.
I say to the member, he should be standing on his feet and apologizing to the
people of this Province for having wasted ten to twelve minutes of this House's
time needlessly this afternoon, to be getting on with such nonsense and such
drivel. We can only say to him, perhaps the next time he should read the act
before he says what I am saying is irrelevant.

Mr. Speaker, I stood here last year and talked about child poverty, and that
is irrelevant to this particular topic. I asked this House last year if they
would pass a motion that said we should have standards in this Province whereby
we will have a program. I said: We want this Province to adopt social and
economic strategies that would reduce child poverty in this Province to a
national level, or below, by the year 2005. What did the people over on the
other side do? They amended it to what - they said something about reasonable
standard. Well, we see where their commitment is on child poverty. We see what
they have done, because the report that came out several days ago said: Not only
has child poverty not improved in this Province, in fact, child poverty in this
Province now is 26.2 per cent. What a shame on this government for the
tremendous bad job that they have done. They can find money to go out and spend
money $200,000 on ad campaigns to promote the image of the Premier, but they
cannot find money to put into our school system. They cannot find money to
support our curriculum. They cannot find money to go and do something about
poverty. Children go to school hungry everyday, who sit in the school system,
and their biggest concern is whether or they are going to have any lunch today.

So, Mr. Speaker, this particular piece of legislation is all about children.
This is an opportunity for us on this side of the House to bring to the floor of
this House the concerns of parents, concerns of communities, concerns of
schools, concerns of teachers, and we want this government to do a better job of
listening to these concerns and doing something about it.

Mr. Speaker, we on this side support this bill, but we also want to say that
when you have a report issued two days ago which talks about child poverty - let
me read what this report says about child poverty. It is entitled: Child poverty
drops but not enough. The comments here says: Poverty admits prosperity.
Building a Canada for all children. The experts, the people who study this, say
now that there are more children living in low-income households than there were
in 1989. For example, in Newfoundland, what is the child poverty rate?
Twenty-six point two percent. We should be ashamed of ourselves. The highest
child poverty rate in all of Canada, and these children go to school everyday
and they cannot learn because they have hungry stomachs, they have headaches,
and they have all the signs we all get as adults when we are hungry. You expect
a child to concentrate on math, English, you expect them to concentrate on being
able to learn to read, when their biggest concern is the fact that they did not
have much for supper last evening and perhaps did not have any breakfast this
morning, and perhaps will not have any lunch today at all. Mr. Speaker, that is
what we are talking about here. When this bill talks about putting the welfare
of teachers - I remind the Government House Leader that when we talk about
teachers we are talking about children, because if the children are not happy in
their school setting, the teachers are not happy.

I resent the fact. I have made my comments to the effect of you saying that
what I am saying here is irrelevant. Again, it is a wrong. What the children of
Newfoundland and Labrador want are not more promises from this government. They
want some action. They want to look and say: Why is it that in the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador 30,000 children are hungry? Why do 30,000 children
live in poverty? For example, why it is that Prince Edward Island has a poverty
rate of 13.3 per cent? Little Prince Edward Island, they have a poverty rate of
13.3 per cent. In Prince Edward Island, 13.3 per cent of their children are
living in poverty, but in Newfoundland and Labrador 26.2 per cent.

AN HON. MEMBER: Double.

MR. H. HODDER: Double.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, if the member opposite was really
interested in what this government has done for low income families in this
Province, and people who are considered to be in poverty, he should ask the
question directly.

Mr. Speaker, from my position as Minister of Human Resources and Employment,
we have actually had a reduction of the number of people on income support from
32,800 children down to 23,000 - a reduction of 30 per cent - but he has never
asked.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the minister to get to his point.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: The fact of the matter is that in 1999 we had 31,000
children who were considered to be in poverty. We have had a reduction from 1999
to 2000, of 1,000 children less in poverty.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order, but I would ask the Member for
Waterford Valley to confine his comments a little bit more closely to the bill.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, let me read from the release which is only
several days old, which says: Provincially, children of Newfoundland and
Labrador are worse off with more than one-quarter living below the poverty line.
Manitoba was not far behind with 22.1 per cent of the children living in
poverty, but Prince Edward Island has a poverty rate of 13.3 per cent.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. H. HODDER: I say to the Minister of Human Resources and Employment
that he will have an opportunity. If he wants to speak to this matter, he has
every opportunity, like anybody else, to stand in his place, but a few moments
ago he was more interesting in raising points of order that were not points of
order at all. I do not know why he would do that, but his point of order was
totally irrelevant.

We, on this side of the House, certainly want to support the intent of this
particular piece of legislation, but again we say to this government that when
you are talking about improving teachers welfare issues - and I have been to
many conventions of the NLTA, many of them over the years. I have been there
when all kinds of resolutions get passed, resolutions dealing with children,
resolutions dealing with curriculum, resolutions dealing with the welfare of
teachers and their salaries. I have attended many, many conventions over thirty
years and I know the kinds of resolutions that happen to get passed. I helped
write many of them, and I have certainly participated in many of the
discussions.

When we talk about the NLTA, we are talking about more than teachers'
salaries; we are talking about a comprehensive approach. Certainly, when we
discuss the NLTA in this Chamber, I, for one member, would like to have my
opportunity to say my part on all of the other issues. This is a bill about the
principle of the act and my comments are very, very relevant to part of the
discussion.

MR. BARRETT: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Works, Services and
Transportation.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I just want to point out for the hon. member
that in Question Period today we had the Official Opposition on their feet
fighting for a tax reduction for millionaires, and we have the hon. Member for
Waterford Valley up talking about children going to school hungry. We want to
know where the priorities of the PC Party are in terms of where they want money
to be spent. They want tax cuts for millionaires, but we want to put more money
to the children in our school system. You are up now talking about child
poverty; the Member for Ferryland was up talking about giving a tax cut to
millionaires.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. H. HODDER: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

MR. SULLIVAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation just stood in his place
and indicated that I am talking about tax cuts for millionaires. It is not
accurate at all. What the minister fails to understand, if he understood the
intent of it, is that I am looking for breaks for the thousands of people who
spend year after year out in exploration and so on, who are depending on money
to invest here in the exploration that can wield a return and drive up
investment in our Province. That is positive for the economy of our Province and
it is wrong for the minister to give the impression that is the purpose of my
question today, because he has completely missed the point. If he wants me to
explain it to him, I will certainly do that outside this House and take the
necessary time to explain it to him.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before recognizing the Member for Baie Verte, I just want to remind and call
members' attention to the bill which we are discussing, which is Bill 26, An
Act To Amend The Teachers' Association Act, to make a number of changes to the
governance provisions that have been requested by the Association.

The question of relevancy has been raised several times. While the Chair is
loath to rule on the issue of relevancy, because if everything that was said in
this Chamber was relevant to the issue on the debate you perhaps would not have
a lot to say on occasion, I would ask the members to try to confine their
comments as closely as possible to the intent and purpose of the bill.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, obviously we will do our best to confine
ourselves within the rules and the governance of Parliament. I just want to be
clear, and I wonder if you can give me some direction on it. In terms of people
speaking on second reading, we have always operated under the assumption and the
direction of some of the Standing Orders of the House and also Beauchesne.
In Beauchesne, for example, on page 195 it says, Stages of A Bill, and it
defines second reading. It says "(2) Second Reading - The stage of
second reading is primarily concerned with the principle of a measure. At this
stage, debate is not strictly limited to the contents of a bill as other methods
of attaining its proposed objective may be considered. This stage is coupled
with an Order to commit the bill."

I think it is important for all members. We will try to confine it in terms
of what is in the bill, but Committee stage is where we actually have to speak
to the very point and to the very clause. I just want to be sure on that, if I
may.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Point understood.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly will stay as relevant as I can, but I know, from a number of
years in this House on second reading, there is some leeway. I certainly will be
talking about teachers and in particular this particular bill, Bill 26, Mr.
Speaker, and refer to it time and time again.

I do not plan to take up a lot of time to speak on this. This is something
that the NLTA has requested and, simply put, Mr. Speaker, anything that the
Association is suggesting for changes in legislation, changes to this act that
will help improve their ability to perform their duties, Mr. Speaker, we agree
with.

We are certainly going to hold this up. We are certainly not going to vote
against it. Mr. Speaker, I do say to all members of the House on both sides, as
a former teacher, that any time - and in this particular session, by the way,
there will be only two bills referring to teachers in this House, and I am
certainly going to take my opportunity and my time in this House, as I have the
right, to stand to talk about teachers and how it is related to this bill
specifically, and otherwise to expound on some of the ideas and some of the
thoughts that I have referring to teachers.

In Bill 26 specifically it talks about the Teachers' Association Act, to
make a number of changes to the governance provisions, which the House Leader
has referred to, but also, Mr. Speaker, if you want to get specific and look
into the bill, we can simply see in subparagraph 4(b)(i), "(i) promoting
the welfare of teachers in the province by setting up and administering those
subsidiary services that the biennial meeting or convention may decide."

In that section alone, Mr. Speaker, if we can talk about that section alone -
or, as a matter of fact, just one line of it - "promoting the welfare of
teachers in the province..." Mr. Speaker, that certainly gives us leeway to
talk about the profession of teaching, a profession that I am sorry to say in
some ways that I never had a long time in because I had just started teaching
for some six years before I started this profession of politics. Mr. Speaker, in
that short time of a teaching profession I went from a primary school teacher,
an elementary school teacher, a high school teacher, and also some substituting
when I first began the teaching profession, and before I started this particular
profession I had a short time with adult education. So, in my short five or
five-and-a-half years with the teaching profession I had a little taste of many
aspects of teaching right from primary to adult education. At least it gives you
some idea of the different problems involved with the teaching profession and
some of the problems they face as a teaching profession.

One that I wanted to mention today, and we just spoke about it a little
earlier, just sitting in our seats here, I remember Jean Charest coming to this
Province some time back, before his position now. As a matter of fact, he was
the national Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party at the time, and we
had some conversations. While he was here, one of the meetings we had was with
teachers. Mr. Charest, I will never forget the speech that he gave. In that
particular speech he talked about how the morale of teachers and, I guess, how
motivated they are in the profession is so important. Because, simply put,
teachers have to be motivated, they have to be up to their job, because they are
dealing with, as many people said here today, our most important resource and
that is the children of the Province. I mean that goes for right across Canada.

As he said: Can you imagine if the morale of the teachers is down? Can you
imagine? For anybody who has experienced this - I know there are many teachers
in this House of Assembly, including the Premier himself, a former teacher, a
former member of the NLTA. He knows first-hand, and any teacher will tell you,
to walk into a classroom 9 o'clock Monday morning to sometimes thirty to
thirty-five pupils, whether it is in Kindergarten or whether it is Grade 12
students, believe me, you have to be motivated and on your toes and ready to go
to work because that is what it takes.

In this particular Province right now, I can tell you that the morale of
teachers is not real high, not from the teachers I have talked about. They
struggle and they put their best foot forward on many occasions, but I can tell
you that there are many concerns with the teaching profession. I can tell you
that every day that they go to school they are not exactly motivated to their
highest level, which they need to be when you are facing the situation of having
to motivate our students as they go through school. There are all kinds of
problems associated with that.

The teachers, of course, how they handle the whole idea of education reform,
and what they went through. I mean, there are many aspects we could deal with
today. You cannot help but look at a bill that relates anywhere to the teaching
profession, and not make remarks as some of my colleagues already did in the
House today, and some more may. They should take the time to speak on the
profession that we are dealing with here today, and that is the teachers of
Newfoundland and Labrador.

The effect the teachers have on the students and the importance of them being
motivated when they walk into a classroom on a Monday morning, Tuesday morning,
whatever morning of the week, and how important that is. In Charest's speech,
one particular comment he made I will always remember. He said: Remember, as we
talk about teachers - and some people talk about good teachers, not so good
teachers - we all know that the truth is that when we bring our little boy or
little girl to school for the first time at five years old, and walk up to that
school building - which many of us, if not all of us, have experienced -
bringing your child to school for the first time at Kindergarten, crying, and
you pass the hand of your little boy or little girl to that teacher, that is the
beginning. That teacher, Madam Speaker, will probably, because of situations at
home these days where both parents, in many cases, are working, have more
influence on that child in the twelve years that they are inside those walls
than we do, as parents, on many occasions. It is just the way that the family is
set up these days, where you have one or two working in the family, that teacher
is probably going to influence that child from Kindergarten to Grade 12 more
than we do as parents. So, we had better make sure they are motivated. We had
better make sure they have the resources available to do the best job, because
they are dealing with, as many people said today, the most precious resource
that we can ever talk about, and that is the children and the students of our
Province. Because, if you want to ever recover fully, if this Province is ever
to fully recover, it is in education.

If we educate our children the best that we possibly can within the Province,
from high school into post-secondary, then that is the engine that is going to
drive the entire economy of this Province, because a good educated group of
people are the ones who are going to have the good ideas and hopefully, at the
end of the day, when they grow up and graduate and go into the workforce, they
are the ones who are really going to make the economy recover in this Province.

So, the effect of teachers, if they have the resources, if they are
motivated, if they are content in their profession, then they are going to be
good teachers, and that reflects on the students also. They end up having good
educations. That is when we will see fewer dropouts, fewer problems within our
teenagers as they go through school. That is so very important. As Charest said
in that particular speech: When you pass the hand of a five-year-old, a
Kindergarten, of a little boy or girl, to that teacher on the first day of
school, he will affect that child throughout twelve years.

How many of us in this House can reflect back quickly and think about a
teacher? Well, I am sure we do think about teachers we did not like so well, or
the teacher that pushed us certain us ways. I am sure every single person here,
if they took the time to reflect and think about a teacher that has affected
them throughout their entire life since school - somebody who has motivated
them, kept them in school when we were all not so anxious to stay in school.
Maybe it was a coach. I know in my case, it was coaches that I had - I was very
involved in sports - who motived you and kept you going through school, because
education is just not the 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. It is the lunch hours, it is
recess time, it is after school, it is a weekend trip. That is what education is
all about - the complete picture of education. That is why it is so important
that the teaching profession of this Province and the teachers that are there
now have to be motivated. They have to be up to speed on all of the resources
that are available so that they can do the best job they can. Without that, we
are putting in jeopardy the future of the Province, simply put. If our teachers
are motivated, our students get the best education and we can go on from there.

Without getting into all of the points - because you could on education. As
the House Leader pointed out earlier, we could talk about it in second reading
and continue to talk about - I have a list of fifteen here and I am not going to
touch two of them, just today the effect of teachers and so on.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: No, I won't take them all, especially if we only have
twenty minutes each. I would suggest that if anybody had the time to stand up
and make points on this they should do so.

I just wanted to touch on one other aspect of it, and that is: Don't forget
also that teachers don't just teach, but in many rural Newfoundland
communities especially - and in urban centers, but especially in rural centres -
the teaching profession has become a very important part of the community. They
are the people who usually head up different volunteer groups. They are the
people there to organize different things throughout the community, so they are
a very important part of the community. If I have the opportunity, I never pass
up the opportunity to talk about the profession of teaching and give it its just
cause, its just deserts, that the teaching profession is a big part of our rural
communities. It keeps us going in many parts of rural Newfoundland and Labrador
when teachers get involved not just inside the school walls but outside in our
communities.

Madam Speaker, yes, it give us an opportunity when a bill arises concerning
the NLTA, that we can stand up and make some points on it. As a matter of fact,
when I do get a chance in Committee, where we do get more specific to the bill,
which is the normal process of this House, when we do get a change to speak to
the specific changes and the amendments here, I will again speak on this
particular piece of legislation and I will take my time to make sure we point
out the benefits that any changes in legislation give us so that the teaching
profession of this Province has a better chance of doing its job better.

I support this bill. We are not going to prolong it. When you get a chance to
stand in this House of Assembly, if you want to, to make your point, you can do
that. That is why we should not be interrupted with these foolish accusations
today of misleading the House or not being relevant to the bill. We will stand
when we have our chance to do that, Madam Speaker. I appreciate the time to
stand and have just a short few minutes on one of only two bills coming to this
Legislature this session on the teaching profession. I am sure that when the
next bill comes concerning the teaching profession, I will stand again.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER (M Hodder): The hon. the Minister of Education.

If the minister speaks now she will close the debate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Let me start by thanking the members opposite for their contribution to this
piece of legislation. I think they have made some very good points. I commend
them on recognizing our teachers. We, in fact, have one of the most highly
educated workforces in the Province, in the country, in our teachers. I think it
is only right to pay tribute to our teachers and the work that they do on behalf
of our students. It is important that all of us recognize that it is not an easy
job being a teacher, but they do their best, they do it diligently and they work
very hard on behalf of all of us.

I thank the members opposite for participating in this debate. Obviously, it
is important to all of us to recognize the contribution that our teachers make.

I want to point to something that the Member for Baie Verte said, and that is
the importance for teachers to keep up to speed on developments. I have to say
that this government recognizes how important that is, which is why we put in
$4.4 million annually for professional development for our teachers. I
appreciate the member raising that because I let the people of the Province know
how much, as a government, we respect that and how much, as a government, we
believe in ensuring that our teachers get the professional development that they
need.

In fact, Madam Speaker it is important to note as well, when we talk about
the difficult job that our teachers have, how important it is for us as a
government to make sure that we have the maximum number of teachers in our
educational system that we can possibly have, which is why we agreed to leave in
218 extra teaching positions this past year at a cost of $11 million to the
provincial Treasury. We did that because it was the right thing to do. We will
continue to support our teachers through professional development initiatives,
through everything that we can do to ensure that they have the resources they
need to do the job that is required of them in the best interest of our
teachers.

I am very pleased with the Department of Education, Madam Speaker, that we
work very closely with our teachers. We have a very good working relationship
with our teachers, but especially with the NLTA. Of course, we have a great deal
of respect for the NLTA and for our teachers. I would say most people in the
Province know that our Premier, Premier Grimes, in fact, used to be the
President of the NLTA. His respect is certainly carried over to all of his
ministers, certainly to his Ministers of Education as they take on the role.

We all appreciate what our teachers do. We know how important they are in the
lives of our children. We know that in some cases they are the first teacher
that some of our children ever encounter. We must always remember, of course,
that the first teacher our children have is the parent. We must never lose site
of that, which is why we have done so much to promote literacy in the Province
and the importance of reading and making sure that our families take part in
that initiative. But, what is important for us is to make sure that we do
everything we can to make sure our children are ready when they go to school.

One of the initiatives that the government has done to support our teachers
is our KinderStart Program, which is one whereby parents and children, children
who are starting school for the first time, pre-kindergarten, actually get an
opportunity to go to school with their parents eight sessions in a year so that
it does not become a traumatic experience for them, and that the teacher does
not have to end up trying to encourage, cajole and help the child settle into
the class. Hopefully, the parent, working with the teacher through the
KinderStart Program has had an opportunity to do that. Trying to make things a
little lighter for our teachers wherever we can because we do recognize they
have a difficult job to do. This is why, when the NLTA was looking for
amendments to the legislation, we thought it was only right and proper to bring
the request to the House and to do what they have asked us to do.

I am pleased to be here to conclude with this particular amendment and to
move second reading.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend the Teachers' Association
Act," read a second time, ordered referred to the Committee of the Whole
House on tomorrow. (Bill 26)

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary
Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, today I rise to speak in support of the changes to the
Newfoundland and Labrador Student Financial Assistance legislation. As Minister
of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education, and as a parent, I know the
value and the necessity of a good post-secondary education. However, I also know
that students often emerge from university and college with high debt loads that
force them into default or inhibit their ability to contribute to both the
fiscal and social economies of our Province. For instance, many of our students
when they graduate from university, our private colleges or our public college,
are often very surprised when they go out to work to find that, not only do they
have to pay back their student loans, but they are unable to buy a house and a
car, and start the life that they know their education has prepared them for.

Our goal as a government, and my personal goal as minister, is to ensure that
post-secondary education participation in Newfoundland and Labrador is the
highest in the country and that all learners in this Province achieve
credentials that will ensure a bright future for themselves and for our
Province. As a government we are keenly aware of the debt students, especially
from our rural and remote areas, accumulate as they undertake post-secondary
studies.

Many people feel that it is the cost of tuition causing most of the debt for
our students. That is not, in fact, so. We have one of the lowest tuition rates
at our university and our college of anywhere in the country. But, it is for
students who have to move away from home. It is the cost of living away from
home and all that entails, that drives the student debt up, especially for our
rural students.

After considerable consultation and deliberation, we introduced this past
spring many new changes to the Student Loans Program that came into effect on
August 1 this year to help ensure that post-secondary education is affordable,
accessible and accountable. These measures are helping to address the problem of
student debt, particularly for those students with high financial need. The plan
that we introduced last spring was a balanced plan and reflected the principle
that post-secondary education is a shared responsibility among government,
students, parents and institutions. As a government, we are very proud of this
work in keeping educational costs affordable through tuition freezes, tuition
reductions and through programs like interest relief and loan remission.

Some of the major changes to the Student Loans Program include a new program
of debt reduction grants that allows students to receive, in the form of a
non-repayable grant, up to the full amount of the provincial portion of the
Canada Student Loan. This grant will be earned on a semester by semester basis
and, upon graduation, for each semester in which a student successfully
completes a full course load, a non-repayable grant will be awarded equal to the
full amount of their provincial student loan. That is for high need students who
meet all of the criteria. Many of them are able now, with the new rules that we
have put in place, to meet the criteria. Memorial University are already telling
us that many more students are registering for a four and five-course program
and are looking like they are going to be eligible, as they complete their
program now this next month, for debt reduction grants in the upcoming semester.

As an example: A student who borrows at the maximum level of $275 per week
for the total length of his or her degree program will be eligible for almost
$15,000 in debt reduction grants. There is nowhere in this country that has a
program that when students do the work that they are supposed to do that we
acknowledge that for our high needs students and say, we will write off this
amount of debt, so that your maximum amount of debt is somewhere just over
$22,000, rather than $35,000 to $40,000. This student would only have to pay
back his or her Canada Student Loan of $22,440 instead of $37,440. This amounts
to a 40 per cent reduction in the student's debt load, which is very
significant, Madam Speaker.

We have also introduced measures that recognize that students often work
part-time while they are studying. In the past, students told us that because of
the student aid rules there was very little incentive to work part-time. So, we
are allowing students to keep more of their study period earnings. We now only
assess 50 per cent of their study period earnings rather than the previous 80
per cent that we used to collect. This was one of the problem that the students
brought forward to us in the consultations that we were doing in previous years
and something that we were very pleased to be able to oblige them on.

For example, if a student earns $1,500 in a semester through a part-time job,
under the old program they would have been only able to keep $300. Under the new
legislation, they can keep $750 without being penalized under the Student Aid
Program.

The other substantive change that we introduced in August, 2002, was
enhancements to interest relief. For students with low incomes after graduation,
the Province will now pay interest on the loan for up to thirty months if a
student is unable financially to pay.

Under the previous program, eighteen months of interest relief was available
for the first three years of repayment. Under the new program, students can
access up to thirty months of interest relief at any time during the repayment
period. As an example a student with an income of approximately $25,000 and a
student loan payment of $450 a month would be eligible for interest relief.

Madam Speaker, I should say that this now also makes sure that the confusion
that was there before between the Canada Student Loan and the Provincial Student
Loan Interest Relief Program is eliminated because now both programs are
matching. We match now the federal program. It was one of the few things about
the federal program that was better than the provincial program.

I wish actually that the federal government, which we are lobbying them
strongly to do, would match all of our new Student Loan Program. It would make a
huge significant difference to students in this Province.

I am also very proud of the new non-repayable grant for students completing
the Early Childhood Education Program. Students in this field have high debt
relative to their earnings. We have introduced grants of up to $10,000 to assist
graduates of this program depending on how much they borrow. Approximately fifty
graduates each year will qualify for this non-repayable grant.

We have also substantially enhanced access to student loan borrowing for
medical students who pay higher tuition and borrow for longer periods because of
the nature of their program.

Memorial University medical students accessing student loans now receive $200
per week up from the previous $110 per week. That allows our medical students,
when they have finished, to not have a high amount of debt to pay back through
charter banks. What are students were having to do because the student loan
system was unable to loan them the amounts they needed, they had to be going to
the chartered banks while they were in med school and in many instances had to
be paying interest while they were in school. The were sometimes using the
Provincial and Canada Student Loan to pay the interest to the private charter
banks. It was a significant amount of debt that they were incurring, and we know
that medical students tend to repay their debts, their Canada Student Loan,
their Provincial Student Loan debts, in a timely manner.

We were very pleased after the Medical Students' Society came to talk to us
about this, that it was one thing we felt that we could do to help medical
students. They said to us, look, if you can help us in this way it may help
ensure that more of us will stay in the Province after we graduate. So, we do
hope that along with the other enhancements that we have in place for medical
students, and grants that we have in this Province, that more of these students
will be able to stay and practice especially in our rural areas.

With enhancements to the Student Loan Program, additional counselling to
students, tuition freeze and reductions, we have demonstrated our commitment to
students in our Province.

As you can see, Madam Speaker, we are diligently pursuing the process of
making Post-Secondary Education available and affordable to all Newfoundlanders
and Labradorians.

Of course, a lot of this will be particularly pertinent now as we are moving
into the need for a greater number of skilled workers in our Province. More and
more we know that over the next few years it is across the country, but in
particular here in our Province with the huge resource projects that are on the
go with White Rose and Voisey's Bay, and hopefully coming on stream soon, the
Lower Churchill, that we are going to need a lot of skilled tradespeople, and
these new programs will ensure more of our students will be able to get the
education that they need to be able to take up these important jobs.

Today, Madam Speaker, we are here to introduce changes to the student
financial assistance legislation that will facilitate the administration of
these program changes. This legislation will enable the Province to implement,
regulate and administer the new student financial assistance program.

Madam Speaker, the legislation presented today will give greater legislative
authority for the implementation of this new, innovative, and much-longed-for
program, actually, by the students and the parents of this Province. I am proud
to be a champion of this program, as it will increase access to post-secondary
education for all of our students by reducing student debt. All residents of
this Province are sharing the responsibility for post-secondary education,
including government, students, parents and institutions.

This legislation will provide many positive changes to assist students while
ensuring the integrity of the program is maintained. Bill 12 establishes the
legislative framework for the student financial assistance program as it exists
today. It defines the educational institutions for which students can receive
student loans. It provides government with the authority to enter into
agreements such as the Canada Student Loans Program. It defines the financial
institutions that are lenders with the program. It defines students'
eligibility to access funding under this program to complete their education. It
provides a framework for appealing decisions of the Student Aid Division, and
this is very important. We have one of the best appeal systems anywhere in
Canada but we also, this year, as a part of our program, even brought in, to
make sure that students are not penalized by our new program, a set of
extenuating circumstances so that students, particularly students who are single
parents, or students who have disabilities, are able to have the same advantages
as students who do a full course load even though they are only able to do
sometimes two and three courses a term. We have put in provisions for that.

It also contains provisions for penalties for those who give misleading
information to obtain a student loan. It gives the Province the authority to
collect loans provided to students, and it gives the legislative authority to
make regulations governing the program changes I previously highlighted,
including enhanced Interest Relief, new Debt Reduction Grants and new targeted
grant programs.

We must assure, Madam Speaker, the people of our Province, that government
has the appropriate legislative authority to manage this critical program, and
that is exactly what this bill is intended to do, and I am proud to stand and
support it so that, as we move forward with the implementation of all these new
and innovative features in our student financial assistance package, that we
will able to give students in this Province the help that they need with the
hope that, in the years to come, we will be able to do more as a Province to
bring the thresholds down. Right now we are able to help students with very high
levels of debt, but as the financial situation improves in this Province we hope
we will be able to do a lot more, along with continuing to have the lowest
tuition rates at our university, to continue the freeze at the College of the
North Atlantic, and to be able, in general, to do all that we can do to help
students in our Province.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I certainly welcome the opportunity today to make a few comments on Bill 12,
An Act Respecting Student Financial Assistance. Madam Speaker, there is no doubt
about it, it is a very important piece of legislation.

How often have we heard, many, many times from all members of the House and
in the public domain, concerning student financial assistance. I know at my
office, Madam Speaker, since I became involved in politics, one of the biggest
issues that we deal with, especially in the fall of the year and early after
Christmas, in the winter months, is student financial assistance. We, on this
side of the House, are no strangers to having issues brought to us, as an
opposition, to raise here in the House or to bring forward in whatever way we
can to address the situation with student financial assistance.

Madam Speaker, any way that is found to improve, to assist, to make life
easier for students in this Province, we, on this side of the House, certainly
agree with it. We have no problem with that, and we certainly agree that with
the new act we have before us today there are improvements that will come
forward. The minister has touched on a few. We certainly echo the comments in
regard to making life easier, as I said, Madam Speaker, for students within the
Province. There are always concerns, and different concerns, and, Madam Speaker,
we are no strangers on this side of the House to dealing with this.

Certainly one of the major things that we are facing in the Province, and I
guess in many places, Madam Speaker, is the fact that we have a high student
debt load by many students who find it, as the minister touched on earlier in
her remarks - she touched on the fact that people, when they finish their
post-secondary education and go forward, trying to get involved in the
workplace, to start a home, buy a vehicle, the one thing that hangs around their
necks like a noose is the fact of a large student loan. Again, any way to
address the problems that come with that noose that is around students' necks,
Madam Speaker, we agree with also.

We have seen, over the past couple of years, Madam Speaker, and certainly in
the past number of years, a major problem. One of the major problems we find is
that, in order for students to pay their debts, in order for students to address
that large debt that they have after having a post-secondary education, we find
that they have to leave the Province to address those concerns. Madam Speaker,
that is unfortunate, that students have to leave our Province because then we
lose the people who we have educated, we lose them to different parts of Canada,
to different parts of North America and to different parts of the world. It is a
sad commentary, Madam Speaker, when many of these students cannot find the
employment opportunities within Newfoundland and Labrador, their home in most
cases, they cannot find the opportunities here to go to work and to find ways to
address their loan and to pay off their debts.

Madam Speaker, we believe things like tuition cuts at Memorial University and
post-secondary education institutions is something that is positive. We believe
that tuition cuts are positive. We have agreed here over the past couple of
years when tuition cuts were brought forward by the government, but we do not
agree with taking the dollars that are saved by tuition cuts and then applying
them to different services that are at the university, to different things that
are available at the different post-secondary institutions, and then causes
students to take the dollars they have put in one pocket on a tuition freeze or
a tuition cut and then turn around and make them pay it out it out of the other
pocket for some other service that is available at the university. We have heard
of the situation with the recreation fees at the university. We have heard the
situation with other things that have been involved at the university level and
the concerns that have been brought forward by students. We ask ourselves: Are
all the things that are brought forward by government addressing the concerns
that are out there? There is no doubt about it, that some of the new ideas and
some of the things that have come forward have addressed some of these concerns.

I received information the other day which concerns me. It concerns a
situation where many of our students have to go to food banks. In Newfoundland
and Labrador many of our students have to go to food banks. That is a shame. It
is a shame on everybody involved that we have students here in Memorial
University, in The College of the North Atlantic, in private colleges here in
this city and throughout this Province, in other parts of Newfoundland and
Labrador, that have to resort to food banks. It is unbelievable, in the year
2002, that we have people in here who are trying to step forward, trying to gain
a post-secondary education and are hungry. That is unbelievable. It is hard to
believe.

I listened with interest today as my colleague from Waterford Valley put
forward that we have a poverty rate in this Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador of 26.2 per cent. That affects everybody. Now these numbers have to do
with children, but, at the same time, I would like to know the numbers. I would
like to know the statistics that address students who are in post-secondary
education in this Province and have to resort to food banks because they are
hungry. We all know if you are hungry you cannot concentrate on your work, you
cannot concentrate on your studies. Therefore, you have no choice but to fall
down on your grades; and the quality of life is important here. The quality of
life for our post-secondary students is very important. For those who have to
resort to food banks, it is a very serious matter.

There is no doubt, as I said before, there are some things that have been
brought forward in the legislation to address some of - career counselling, as
an example. I think anything that, again, helps with career counselling which
gives students, at whatever age they are at, to try to decide or try to think
about what careers are available to them and to be able to assist them, I think
is a positive move. I agree with it wholeheartedly. I think anything that can do
that, we agree with. My concern is that I do not think we go far enough. I think
we should go one step further. By saying that, I think career counselling should
certainly start in high school.

Maybe the Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education could
confer with the Minister of Education and look at ways of bringing career
counselling - well I know there are some cases where we have career fairs in
schools. I think it should be part of the curriculum. I think it should be part
of the curriculum in our high schools, Madam Speaker. Even further than that,
right up through the grades we should have some way of addressing and giving an
opportunity for people to look at different opportunities that are out there to
seek information, whatever information that is available. We all know in today's
technology we have a wealth of information available to us at our fingertips.
Thanks be to God, our students at our high school levels will certainly be able
to avail of that, through the technology that is there, to be able to avail of
the opportunities. I think if we had people to come forward into our schools on
a regular basis, whether it is from the school boards, whether it is from the
Department of Education themselves, whether it is from private institutions that
are out there, come in and do a more thorough career counselling, Madam Speaker,
than what I believe is being done today. This is a situation that needs to be
addressed, and while it is certainly being looked at and stepped up in the
legislation, I think we need to look at it more thoroughly.

I had a case in my own district a few years ago where we had a situation - a
young girl was in a private college here in town and had gone through two or
three courses. She decided after her third course that she could not continue
with the course, and it had to do with veterinarian assistant. We had a
situation where the young girl owed over $40,000 in student debt and did not
have one - I repeat, Madam Speaker - did not have one employable skill. I had
discussed that before with people opposite. Here we have a situation where
somebody owes $40,000, who does not have one employable skill for the reason
that she could not complete the courses that were involved. Then she finds
herself out working in a job, receiving the minimum wage, to try to address a
$40,000 debt. She does not have the educational background to step up to the
plate to make money than the minimum wage, Madam Speaker. It was impossible for
her to address her student debt. Then we got into a situation where that lady
was being chased down at her place of work, as I say, working at the minimum
wage. She was being chased down at her place of work by a collection agency;
calling her at her place of work and really giving her a very difficult time,
Madam Speaker, and involving other people in her workplace in the situation
where she owed money, trying to address that, trying to work, and trying to deal
with a collection agency on the phone.

I believe the department needs to address in some way, shape or form these
collection agencies. I find they are calling people at their homes and they are
dealing with parents. They are calling people at their place of work, and is
certainly causing some major problems. How do you address a $40,000-plus debt
making the minimum wage? It certainly needs to be looked at, Madam Speaker.

To do a follow-up on career counselling, we certainly need to look at
employment counselling for people who are in post-secondary institutions; to do
more than what is being done at the present time, and give opportunities to
people and say to people when they come in to do a course - when they come in to
sign up to a private college or to sign up to Memorial University, or the
College of the North Atlantic - sit down with them and do some type of means
test to figure out what those people's capabilities are, because some people
sometimes would like to be certain things, and that is understandable, everybody
likes to dream. I am sure there are students who are leaving our high schools
today, right across this Province, who like to dream and would like to be
something. Maybe in some cases they are not capable of doing that. I think we
need to step in and step up to the plate once again and say to people, in some
cases, that we do not think, for whatever reason, you may not be capable of
doing that and therefore, through the employment counselling method - again,
employment counselling could start at our high school levels.

As the minister touched on earlier, she talked about the trades that are
needed in our Province today. I think we are all aware that for many, many
years, over the past decade, the emphasis has been put towards the IT sector.
Certainly, over the past couple of years we have seen a shortage of carpenters,
we have seen a shortage of plumbers, we have seen a shortage of electricians, we
have seen a shortage of all the trades, and I think that the minister and the
government need to step up to the plate once again on employment counselling to
try to address some of the concerns that are out there. To have students going
through post-secondary education - passing and doing quite well in whatever
courses they have taken - and to find out that, in some cases, the jobs are not
out there, that they are not available, Mr. Speaker, and they have to go back
and try some other course, try to get some other trade or whatever the case may
be.

We have numerous students who are into our offices and on the phones to us,
Mr. Speaker, who say: if I had to know the job opportunities, if I had to know
the employment opportunities for this course that are not available, then we
should have said to ourselves: maybe I would have taken another course; maybe I
would have taken another trade. I think that is important, Mr. Speaker, that we
look at this.

Mr. Speaker, the minister touched on debt reduction grants. Again, I think
that is a positive move, I say to the minister. Anyway to look at reducing the
amount of loans to students and certainly the debt reduction grant is something
that is a positive aspect of this piece of legislation and it is something that
addresses some of the concerns. It is through the whole program. It is not at
the first or middle or the beginning. It carries right through the whole student
program and I think it is something that is of a positive nature and certainly
something that we agree with on this side.

Mr. Speaker, as we have dealt with before, I think one of the biggest
problems that I find, in my district, being from a rural district, is the
situation where we have fixed rates of loans in some cases. We have rural
students verses urban students. The cost of a student leaving rural Newfoundland
and travelling into St. John's or some other part - Corner Brook or whatever
the case may be, Mr. Speaker. I think that the cost related to the rural student
verses the urban student are so much more, and I think any way that we can
address that, Mr. Speaker, being fair to everybody across the board but at the
same time addressing that concern, I think, once again, it is a positive thing.

As an idea, Mr. Speaker, if you are in the city or somewhere close to the
city or Corner Brook, whatever the case may be or wherever you are, attending a
post-secondary institution in the Province and you can go home to your own house
each night, in a lot of cases, go home to lunch, go home to supper and go back
to the libraries or whatever the case may be, all these things, Mr. Speaker,
save a lot of dollars for people who are close to a post-secondary institution.
But, if you are from rural Newfoundland and you have to pack up your bags and
move to the centres where the institutions are, you will find that the costs go
up. You have costs such as groceries; transportation costs, that can be enormous
for some students, especially students attending from Labrador and different
parts of the Northern Peninsula and across the Province. You have costs of
accommodations that are a high cost here in this area, in St. John's, and
around the area, and these costs are costs that an urban student does not have
to have, for the simple reasons that he has - you know, I am saying not in
regard to groceries. We all have to eat. The bottom line is that accommodations
and transportation are two major savings for urban students. I think if there is
some way of addressing that, if there is some way of certainly looking at the
rural student versus the urban student, again, as I said, being fair to
everybody, if there is some way of doing that, I think it would be a positive
move on behalf of government and for the rural students of this Province.

We look just a Memorial University alone, and I believe the numbers are up
around 17,000 attending that institution there, and there are fair amount of
those students who travel from rural Newfoundland. There are many people from my
own District of Placentia & St. Mary's, who are in post-secondary
institutions here in St. John's and throughout the Province. You know, it is a
large cost. It is a large cost on people from rural Newfoundland. As most people
know, we have seasonal industries in our districts. Certainly in mine it is no
different. Seasonal industries such as the fishery or tourism, or whatever the
case may be, that their parents are involved in, and trying to assist
financially the students when they come in here to school is a major difficulty
for many parents in my district. I talk to parents on a continuous basis, and I
believe in many cases that parents need to be made more aware of what is
happening and what is available: the careers that are available, the employment
that is available. I think parents need to be made more aware because, in most
cases, parents are the bank and parents are the people who are paying for this,
and I think they need to be made more aware. If anything under the new act or
any part of the new act addresses those concerns, I think it would be a positive
thing, but I think we need to step up once again to the plate. The minister
needs to step up to the plate and address some of the concerns that are facing
our rural students, because I have stories, Mr. Speaker. I have many, many
situations in my own district, of people who are finding it very, very difficult
to find enough finances to address their concerns.

I think, once again, we get back to a situation where in Bill 12 we are
putting forward an appeal process. Once again, I think that the appeal process
brought forward in Bill 12 is an improvement. I think it is something that is
positive for the simple reason that, you know, many, many students find very
frustrating the situation that exists today, and hopefully the new appeal
process - the improvements, I should say, to the appeal process - is something
that will be addressed and something that will make life, once again, easier for
students who are trying to avail of financial assistance.

Many students find it very difficult. I have a situation in my own district
numerous times where they find it very difficult in dealing with student aid in
regard to finding someone to talk to. You know, they get bombarded in September
and October with loan applications and everything gets - and that is
understandable. There are so many staff to deal with so many applications, but
it is very difficult for students in that case. I think that any way we can
address those concerns, once again, through the appeals process, whether we put
a board in place as was mentioned here, or we deal with the Student Aid Office
itself, but I think in some way students need to know that they don't have to
be held for ransom, in some cases, when they are waiting for a student loan. In
some cases is is only because you didn't tick off something on an application
or didn't fill in one line of an application. The whole thing is put on the
back burner and it takes an immense amount of time to get it dealt with, in some
cases through the appeals process. We find people in here, as I said before,
especially cases of rural students who have rent commitments, who have
transportation commitments, and trying to deal with these is always a concern.

I think parents need to be involved, Madam Speaker, as part of the program at
the high school level, maybe, as part of the program at the post-secondary
level. Parents need to be involved. I think it would be money well used, Madam
Speaker, if we could see something put together, whether it is a brochure or
whether it is a campaign. I think it would be a lot better to use $30,000 a week
to promote career counselling and employment counselling, and especially involve
the parents, than it would be to spent it on, as we have seen over the past
seven or eight weeks, the ads about the good things that are happening in
Newfoundland and promoting the Premier. Madam Speaker, I think it would be
better spent if we could promote what is available under the Student Financial
Act, and let people know exactly what is going on.

Madam Speaker, what happens in a lot of cases is that we have students in our
Province who find themselves stepping up to the plate and they find, in many,
many cases, that they get in over their heads and are forced, in a lot of cases,
to social assistance.

I listened today to the Minister of Human Resources and Employment as he
talked about the reduction in numbers - and he has it at his fingertips I am
sure - the reduction in numbers of people who have found themselves on social
assistance over the past years. He stood up and he was so willing to jump to his
feet and say: You know, we had this many people as a reduction in social
assistance. Madam Speaker, I find it ironic, I say to the minister and to the
Minister of Post-Secondary Education, that in 2001, 51 per cent of first-time
applicants to social assistance in Newfoundland and Labrador were youth; 51 per
cent. That is a sad commentary, I say, 51 per cent of first-time applicants in
2001 for social assistance were youth, Madam Speaker, from age eighteen to age
twenty-nine. I mean, is that something that the government is putting out in
good things happening in Newfoundland and Labrador ads? I say not, Mr. Speaker,
because I think it is a shame that we have 51 per cent of new applicants - I do
not see the Minister of Human Resources so quick to jump to his feet and tell us
that 51 per cent of new applicants in 2001 for social assistance in this
Province were youth between the age of eighteen and twenty-nine. Yes, you should
stay in your seat, I say to the minister, and stay put, because he is not
jumping up and telling that, Mr. Speaker.

When we look at the students traveling throughout this Province now, from age
eighteen to twenty-nine, in most cases I am willing to bet - and I would like to
see stats from the Department of Human Resources and Employment. I would like to
see stats that tell us, those students between eighteen and twenty-nine who are
part of that 51 per cent of people who are on social assistance in 2001, how
many of those are on social assistance because of the high student debt load
that they are carrying. How many of those 51 per cent are on social assistance
because of the high debt load that they are carrying from trying to get a
post-secondary education, from trying to improve on their way of life, from
trying to push forward and trying to once again improve their situation? The
youth caseload was 67,086 people, 24.5 per cent, youth from age eighteen to
twenty-nine.

Maybe one of the ministers can stand to their feet later and tell us how many
of the new applicants for social assistance in 2001, how many of that 51 per
cent of new applicants, how many of them had a heavy student debt load that
forced them on to social assistance. I think that when we hear about the good
things happening in this Province we do not hear, from this government, those
kinds of stats. These are what you call in-camera stats.

I think it is a shame that we have a situation where we have that many people
who find that they have no recourse whatsoever, Mr. Speaker, only to go on
social assistance. For those that are not on social assistance, where do they
go? They are packing their bags and going to other parts of Canada, other parts
of North America and other parts of the world to find a way to address their
student debt, because the opportunities are not here in this Province for all of
those people who have come forward. I think that those are the kinds of things
we need to address. Those are the kind of things that we have to stop talking
about planning and start doing. I think they are the concerns that people have
and are bringing forward. I think we have to look at things like that.

The Member for The Straits & White Bay North stood today and talked about
the Premier and the government spending almost $250,000-plus on ads, Mr.
Speaker, to promote the Premier, to promote the government, to promote the good
things that are happening in Newfoundland, but we do not hear about those
situations. We do not hear, because these people are forced on social
assistance, they are forced to go to food banks, as I touched on earlier, they
are forced to be on their hands and knees trying to get through an appeals
process, sometimes waiting for weeks on end to try to address some of the
concerns that they have. I think, Mr. Speaker, if we need a new act, we need an
act from the minister herself to address some of these concerns, and hopefully
through addressing those concerns we can alleviate the pain that many of these
students- when I say students, Mr. Speaker, many of the parents and the
families, because once a student leaves, I will use again rural Newfoundland as
an example, once a student leaves rural Newfoundland to travel away to a
post-secondary education, whether it is here in St. John's or somewhere else,
it becomes a family issue. Everybody in the family has to contribute to that in
some way, shape or form. Everybody has to give a little, take something a little
less in their own lives at home in order to promote, in order to assist and in
order to do whatever is needed, Mr. Speaker, to make sure that the student that
is out to post-secondary education has ample opportunity to get that
post-secondary Education so that they can, hopefully, contribute to the family
income.

If I could, Mr. Speaker, speak for a few moments on the situation that we
find ourselves in, in relation to students that are leaving our Province. I
think we have to address that concern. Most of the people that we have seen
leave this Province - and we understand fully that because of the cod moratorium
in 1992 we had many students and many people that have left the Province. As a
matter of fact, over a ten-year period we had around 50,000 people. I would
like, Mr. Speaker, to have the numbers on how many of those people were between
the age of eighteen and twenty-nine that have left this Province because of the
opportunities that are not available for them.

I do not hear the Minister of Human Resources and Employment on his feet
telling us about that, Mr. Speaker, and that kind of concerns me, that they are
not up giving all of the facts and the figures for this open and transparent and
accountable government. I think it is important-

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment, on a point of order.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I just want to clarify, for the record, that I had
raised a point of order about some information that the Member for Waterford
Valley was talking about. What I had said, Mr. Speaker, was that we have
experienced a 30 per cent reduction in the number of children who were on income
support since 1997, Mr. Speaker. I wanted to point out that he is talking about
percentages and, when you look at percentages, the cause for the percentages is
the drop in the population. I have said that we have a 30 per cent drop in a
number of children -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to get to his point quickly.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: - on income support since 1997, but at the same time
we only had -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister, there was a 30 per cent reduction of children who are
on income support since 1997, and the minister is so quick on his feet. That is
the second time today the minister stood on his feet with those numbers, Mr.
Speaker. Now he is telling us - because there are really no numbers at all,
because people have left this Province. People have left this Province, that is
why it is down 30 per cent. You are not up telling that, I say to the minister.
Why isn't the Minister of Human Employment and Resources up telling why 51 per
cent -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, I have to remind hon. members that, when they are addressing the
House, they should be addressing the House through the Chair, not talking to
individual members across the House.

MR. MANNING: A good point, Mr. Speaker, thank you.

Mr. Speaker, I ask why the minister is not so quick on his feet to tell us
that in 2001, 51 per cent of first-time applicants to the social assistance
caseload in this Province were youth between the ages of eighteen and
twenty-nine. How come none of the ministers are telling us that, Mr. Speaker?
The reason for that, in most cases, is because of high student debt that you
failed to address. That is why the minister is not on his feet telling that, Mr.
Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: He is not up giving the numbers on that.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: For the record, Mr. Speaker, I am not jumping up to
what the member is saying because I do not have the statistics here in front of
me, but I will at the next sitting of the House. Unlike the member, I did not
stand up and vote against research and development money coming to this Province
-

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: - so people could find and keep work!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member of Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, I say in all honesty, I am astounded that the
minister does not have these, because these are right from his department. These
figures are right from the minister's department, and he does not know the
stats; you do not know the stats. I say to the minister, you do not know the
stats of your own department. Where do you think I got those? They came right
from the Department of Human Resources and Employment.

I repeat again, in case somebody did not understand it, I repeat again, that
the minister did not have the stats. Therefore, he should go back to his people
in his department and tell them to provide him with the proper stats, Mr.
Speaker, because the stats speak for themselves - 51 per cent. I do not think we
can repeat it often enough in this House, that 51 per cent of first-time
applicants in 2001 who went on social assistance in Newfoundland and Labrador,
were students; were youth between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine.

That is the situation, and these are from the Department of Human Resources
and Employment. The minister of that department stands on his feet in this House
and says: I do not have the stats. I do not have the stats.

I have gotten them from your department. I say, Mr. Speaker, you should go
back and do your homework and know the stats, because maybe the reason you do
not have them is because you do not know them in the first place and that is why
we have the problem that we have in this Province; because if you knew what -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: The first thing you have to do to address the problem, you
have to acknowledge that you have it, Mr. Speaker. You have to acknowledge that
you have the problem. Now, if the minister stands up and does not acknowledge
that there is a problem with 51 per cent of first-time applicants in 2001 going
on social assistance caseloads, between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine, if
he does not acknowledge that as a problem, how in the name of God, I say, do we
ever address it? That is the question that I ask here today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, we can stand up in this House and talk about
it, and we can spend $30,000 a week on ads telling about the good things
happening in this Province - and there is no doubt about that, there are some
good things happening, but there are a lot of things that need to be addressed.
I would like to know five years before that, and five years before that, how
many students were on social assistance caseloads.

I have talked to some of these students, and they tell me the reason that
they have go to social assistance is because of high student debt, that they
could not make the payments. They were in jobs, Mr. Speaker - now you wouldn't
mind. They were in jobs in this Province, working, and they got so much
harassment at their job site from collection agencies that they more or less had
to move on. They were being harassed at their job sites, harassed at their
homes, and therefore in some cases they just - you know, we are all human - in
some cases they just could not handle the harassment.

The minister is so quick to jump to his feet and tell us about the amount of
students, the amount of children, Mr. Speaker. Well, these are children too, in
some cases young adults, Mr. Speaker, from ages eighteen to twenty-nine, who are
trying to get out there, trying to get a post-secondary education, so they can
move ahead, so they can make a difference in this country, in this Province or
in this city. These people are out there, Mr. Speaker, and they have a noose
around their necks in regard to having a high student debt. Sure, I agree that
we have addressed some of those concerns, but the fact is I don't think we are
doing enough, Mr. Speaker, I don't think the government is doing enough to
address those concerns. There are innovative ways of doing this, Mr. Speaker,
and I think that we need some innovation from this government. We don't have
it, Mr. Speaker, we don't get it and it is sadly lacking, in ways to address
some of the student loans in this Province. I think it needs to be addressed.

Like I said, Mr. Speaker, Bill 12 does address - in my opening remarks I
said, Bill 12 does address some of the concerns that are there. Again, Mr.
Speaker, there are too many concerns out there. When I stand up in the House
today and try to make some points, I find that the Minister of Human Resources
and Employment doesn't even acknowledge that we have a problem. It is a sad
commentary, when the minister does not even acknowledge that we have a problem.

As people in this House have said before, Mr. Speaker, the numbers speak for
themselves, and the numbers are staggering. To say the least, the numbers are
staggering, when over half the people in 2001 who had to go to social assistance
in this Province were youth between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine. Mr.
Speaker, we have a Minister of Human Resources and Employment responsible for
creating opportunities in this Province, who doesn't even know that problem
exists. I say, Mr. Speaker, shame on him. I say it is time that we took this
seriously, it is time that we looked at the situation in this Province and say,
we have a problem.

Don't try to camouflage it, don't try to paint it over, don't try to
say there is not a problem. Stand up, I say to the minister, stand up, look at
the problem, address it and take it seriously. Because, Mr. Speaker, while we
are making steps forward, with Bill 12 and with other pieces of legislation to
address some of these concerns, I think it is utterly very, very important that
all ministers and the government look at a situation like we have here and try
to - I would be very, very happy, Mr. Speaker, if I stood here in a few months
time or next year, whatever the case may be, and the Minister of Human Resources
and Employment, whoever he or she may be, will be able to stand up and say:
Well, in 2001, 51 per cent were forced on social assistance but in 2003 or 2004
or 2005 we are down now to 40 per cent, that we are down to 30 per cent. We work
at that collectively together, Mr. Speaker.

I think, if we do not look at a situation like this and ask why the youth,
ages eighteen to twenty-nine, are in many cases heading off to food banks right
here in this city, Mr. Speaker, going to food banks. Here they are, trying to
get a post-secondary education, and going out to a food bank to get their
supper, and then the minister jumps up on his feet telling us all the good news.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Well, Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of concerns here that
need to be addressed, and I hope that by bringing those concerns forward here in
the House today, myself and my colleagues here on this side of the House, that
the minister will wake up and listen to these concerns and address some of them
over the next little while so students in this Province, students in
Newfoundland and Labrador, have a solid footing and a fair playing field for
everybody else in this Province and everybody else in this country when it comes
to getting a post-secondary education.

We all know the importance of a post-secondary education. The importance of
education to address the economic problems in this Province is utterly important
and vitally important to everyone in this House, I am sure. I hope by bringing
these concerns today that the ministers do not take them personally, but that
they take them - we have raised them, Mr. Speaker, because they are serious
issues. We hope that they will be addressed over time and very soon be
addressed, Mr. Speaker, and that students here will have a better way of life
and an easier way of life to get through and not have that noose hanging around
their neck, of a student debt, that is really curtailing their opportunities to
move ahead in life, curtailing their opportunity to live a good life in this
Province.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I wonder, before I recognize the hon. minister, if I could take this
opportunity, in accordance with Section 273.(3) of the Elections Act, 1991, to
table the Annual Report of the Chief Electoral Officer on the Election Finances
for January 1, 2001 to December 31, 2001.

The hon. the Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am standing now to answer some of the questions and to comment on some of
the remarks from the member opposite who just spoke, from Placentia& St.
Mary's, and to close debate on this issue.

While the member brought up many concerns, I was very glad that he
acknowledged a lot of the really good work that is being done from the
perspective of helping students in our Province. There are several programs I
would like to mention.

While he talked about lower tuition fees, and he was pleased to see them,
then he talked about higher fees, so this would not be helpful to students. We
agree with that. We know the university are doing their best to keep fees down.
We have lower fees in this Province than almost any university in Canada, but I
have to point out to the member that the university is autonomous. It is up to
them the fees that they can charge and there is very little that I, as minister,
or this government, can do about that. I know we work closely with the
university and they do their best to keep fees down. I think he was referring to
the new Field House fees. Even those are lower at Memorial University than they
are at most universities across the country, especially here in Atlantic Canada.

One of the comments I wanted to speak about was the career counselling piece.
The member states that, you know, we need to do career counselling in high
school. Not only are we doing it in high school, we start at Grade 3. We have
some of the best programs in all of Canada. As a matter of fact, at a ministers'
meeting last year, I was very pleased, as was the Minister of Education, when
the Minister of Education from Manitoba stood up to speak to us about the great
program called The Real Game that was put in place here in our Province by a
former teacher - a new program that is being used, that was put in place by Bill
Barry, an entrepreneur here in our Province. The Real Game is now all over the
world. It is fantastic. The feedback that we are getting from students and
teachers and school boards is really, really good. This program is being used
all over.

We have a program called Choices, that is in our schools, that many teachers
are very pleased with; but I should say that, throughout the Province, different
districts are doing different work with career counselling. We are endeavouring,
through the Department of Education and my own department, through Youth
Services, to try and give students a lot more help in both understanding the
student loan system so they know what they are getting into, so parents
understand it, and guidance counsellors, but we are doing a lot to make sure
that students are making the correct choices.

I understand where the member was coming from when he talked about the young
student who was doing veterinary assistant and did not finish, and ended up with
$40,000 worth of debt. That is what we are doing every day in my department,
through organizations such as the Community Youth Network that this government
put in place, to try and help students make wise decisions, to make students
know they have to be accountable, that when they are going into any
post-secondary education they need to know what they are doing.

One of the most successful pieces of research done anywhere in this country,
bar none, is a program that we just put out the results of Career Search 2000.
Career Search 2000 is research that we have been doing over the last four years,
a program that was brought in 1998. It indicates where graduates are one year
after they graduate from post-secondary. They are all interviewed. We had more
than 60 per cent of graduates interviewed. So if high school students or anyone
considering post-secondary wanted to see what career outcomes are, they can look
at the career search document. This document will show them how many students
who graduated from such and such a program - whether it be nursing, or welding,
or auto-mechanic - were able to get jobs, how much they were getting paid, could
they get jobs in this Province, or did they have to leave. Very valuable
information. But, over and above that, students, after they read this
information, can still make up their mind to follow their heart, to do what they
most desire to do. If they want to have the pertinent information and the real
facts, Career Search 2000 gives them that information.

I would like to close off by saying that what the member said about in-camera
stats, and stats that there are not good things happening in Newfoundland and
Labrador, this government does not hide the facts. That is the reason this
member was able to have those facts. We agree, that having this many young
people who are having to go on social assistance at such a young age is not a
good thing. That is why we are working so hard in this government to make sure
that when our students finish high school, that there are opportunities for them
in post-secondary education. That is why the Department of Human Resources and
Employment work very hard on a case by case basis. When we come with the new
bill to the House now, some time soon in a matter of days, you will see what we
are doing through that department to work individually with students who are on
social assistance, or in families that are receiving social assistance, to make
sure that they get all the help that we can possibly give them so that they have
every chance in life, as we want all of our students to have.

I would like to close by moving second reading.

Thank you very much.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting Student Financial
Assistance," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the
Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill 12)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 19, Mr. Speaker.

I think the Opposition House Leader adjourned the debate on Order 19, Bill
29, An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act No 3.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, this is a piece of legislation that is a companion piece of
legislation to legislation that we dealt with in second reading with respect to
the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

I understand the Minister of Justice, the Member for Lewisporte, and the
Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi - there was an issue at hand dealing with this
specific piece. It is not a big piece of legislation, admittedly. I guess one of
the concerns that was raised in Bill 29 was that the regulations associated with
the act could not be published. I think it read at the time - it reads here
right now. It could, "... be obtained, without charge..." - of course
- "... at the council office." Which meant that anybody, wherever they
lived, would have to go to the council office to obtain the regulations. If
there was any sort of grievance that had occurred and they were challenging the
issue at hand with them personally or respectively. From what I understand -
maybe I will just allow the Minister of Justice a moment. I will ask the
question just to be clear on it for the record of the House - there is an
amendment that we have agreed upon that will be made in committee, whereby if
somebody has a grievance associated with the act, or the regulations associated
with the passage of this bill, that if they wish to obtain the regulations or
whatever is associated with it, that it will be sent to them at no cost, whether
it be e-mail, mail or whatever the case may be.

I will give the Minister of Justice just a quick moment to indicate if that
is the case, and if so, we will move second reading immediately.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I have had discussions with the Member for
Lewisporte and the Leader of the NDP concerning subsection 1, and that regards
the publication of the regulations. As it currently reads, there was no
requirement for publication. They would be published, but they would not have to
necessarily put it in the newspaper so that everybody would have it. That was
put there specifically at the request of the municipalities who did not want to
incur the cost of having to put it in the newspapers. You are quite right, it is
necessary to amend it to allow anyone who does want a copy of it, to get it at
no cost to them. We have spoken to the legislative draftsmen and an amendment is
being prepared, which we will certainly introduce in committee stage.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

With that statement by the Minister of Justice I will move that we proceed to
conclusion of second reading and thereafter, by agreement, the House will
adjourn.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of the bill.

On motion, a bill, "An Act to Amend The Highway Traffic Act No.3,"
read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on
tomorrow. (Bill 29)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, before adjournment I just want to advise hon.
members that under Standing Order 11, I make the same motion, that on Monday the
House not adjourn at 5:30 p.m.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Monday at 1:30
p.m.