UPDATED! Heroine Legends’ “Return of the Black Queen 1, 2 and 3″

NEW UPDATE: Part 3 is now available! Cast of Shadows: Return of the Black Queen, features Kristina Hess, someone who it feels like we haven’t seen in a while. I’m happy to report that she is still ridiculously good looking, and in this episode plays a dual role where she ends up wearing less clothing than normal.

UPDATE: Return of the Black Queen 3 Now Available

UPDATE: Return of the Black Queen 2 Now Available

Return of the Black Queen 1 – Review by Sidekick

After listening to a story from her sensei about a powerful evil that has returned to the Earth, Thorne decides to walk through the Park of Heroine Doom. ATTENTION ALL HEROINES! DO NOT WALK THROUGH THIS PARK!

Too late. She is confronted by a rather large goon and they have a nicely choreographed back and forth martial arts type fight. The bad guy locks her in a choke hold that she can’t break out of so she blasts him with her power and transforms into revealing outfit number one, her normal costume. The fight continues and just as it looks like the tide is going to turn in her favor, BAM, low blow. For those asking for us to be more specific about these things, he delivers it to her.

This completely changes the course of the fight as Thorne is pretty well dominated from here on out. She’s squeezed in a reverse bearhug and given a backbreaker that knocks her out. When she awakens, she’s laying on a floor where the spirit of the Black Queen is mystically placed in her. Cue revealing outfit number two, a skintight little black number.

Now in complete possession of Thorne’s body, we learn that the Black Queen is your classic heart ripping out, dominatrix with a foot fetish, kind of villainess. She promptly goes back to the Park of Heroine Doom and enslaves another minion.

Meanwhile, one of Thorne’s friends is able to track the Black Queen down at a swanky home. Big mistake. The minions beat on him for a while and the Black Queen joins in on the fun. After the beating, the Black Queen forces Thorne’s friend into some foot worship and then she just walks away which allows Thorne’s friend to escape.

I wouldn’t call this a departure for Heroine Legends as there is still a good amount of story exposition followed by martial arts action, which will please their normal fans. However, they went heavy on the boot worship, foot fetish, suck on Thorne’s toes action. I don’t have any insider information as to whether this type of thing is going to be a more permanent fixture or it’s just being used as a device in the Black Queen story arc. Time will tell. Or Logan will comment. Either way.

This film was a custom order feature film and we agreed to the stipulations of a foot fetish in the film. It’s not meant to be a permanent change, however, we acknowledge it’s heavy presence and for those who share this fetish, all 3 parts of this film should appeal to you greatly. That being said, it is not strictly a foot fetish film– it is still a Heroine film in the Cast of Shadows series which implements a full storyline, martial arts and peril action, and decent amount of special effects. Each part is over 30-40 minutes and the action is constant throughout! Not only did we implement the requests of the custom order, we also tried to implement other requests from our fans in regards to low blows, camera angles, costumes, etc. We hope you all enjoy this film as much as we enjoyed making it!!

Logan

mantower

The description of the video is not really appealing to me for the most part. I love the idea of seeing Kristina knocked out in an OTK backbreaker, which in all honesty sounds a truly incredible scene. However, I cannot really justify spending forty bucks for that and then to just ignore the rest of the video as the whole foot fetish thing doesn’t do it for me. Sorry Logan, I will wait for the fight compilation to get this one and I will save my pennies for The Demon Within as that looks like it will be epically good, the heroine is so hot and i can’t wait to see what peril you have in store for her!

@mantower: I understand everyone has different tastes. Going into filming this video, we knew there would be some who weren’t into the whole foot thing. We did make sure that we had enough of other types of peril to appease most viewers. For that reason, we stayed under the traditional $1/min minimum pricing structure that most producers adhere to. I went through the 1st part of the video to see exactly how much was foot/boot related and it came in around 10 minutes in a 45 minute film. So, for those who are interested in our series and films, this film still offers 35 minutes of Heroine movie that is not based around foot fetish. I’m personally not a foot fetish guy and I love the way this film turned out regardless. We used a lot of the foot scenes to explain other things that are happening throughout the film as well. Whatever you decide to is is fine, of course– “The Demon Within” was an amazing shoot and is currently with my editor in post-production– I’m really excited to see the way that one turned out as well!

Logan

Dillhole

I first want to say that I like Heroine Legends and have bought several of their films. I hope the producers don’t take this as an attack of any kind, because it’s not. It’s just my personal opinion and I hope it promotes discussion and gives valuable feedback to not only them, but all producers.

I believe that the $1.00 per minute scale has it’s place but I also think it should have a limit. Although I understand everyone has their tastes and budgets, I personally would never pay $40.00 for a video unless it included every little thing I like in these films.

If I recall correctly this has been a frequent topic of discussion with Ring Divas custom videos which are priced at $40.00. People have taken each side of the debate over whether those videos are worth it or not, but never having downloaded from that company, I can’t really comment.

When I look at things from a production values standpoint, nobody does this type of film better than Zen Pictures and as far as I know they never charge more than $30.00. That’s $30.00 for videos that are usually just under an hour long and also include an additional behind the scenes download video that is usually pretty entertaining.

Another way to look at it is this. I could buy Cult Retro’s last three releases for a total of $45.00. I could buy the last two full episodes from Next Global Crisis for $50.00 and that doesn’t include the discount pricing they offer.

I imagine most people who come to this site are in the same boat that I am. I don’t have unlimited funds to buy every film that looks interesting and I have to pick and choose carefully. When I see a $40.00 price tag from any producer, I immediately start to look for other options. That’s just me.

I hope this video sells well for you and I hope you have nothing but success. The more successful producers are, the better it is for fans. Good luck.

@Dillhole: I don’t take that as a stab at all! I completely understand where you are coming from. We’ve actually had a great turn-out from this film – it’s really honestly trending very similarly to other films we out out. The pricing thing is always something of controversy and we try to remain as low as possible without going too low. Our pricing needs to match our production quality. Zen Pictures is hard to compete with because their market and demographic allow for what I like to call Walmart-type pricing. No disrespect to the company– it’s all about supply and demand. This video was a custom order so we were bound by guidelines, but we did our best to maintain our story and other elements we are known for. It’s not a foot fetish film, though the foot/boot scenes are blatant. Again, I understand your view on pricing and am sure others agree. The topic is all over the boards. I could have released this in shorter, less expensive increments, but I’ve been trying to stick to the 3-part film format for “Cast of Shadows” – this film as a whole is 2 hours long. Anyway, I’m happy to read your feedback and take all feedback as constructive criticism to try and improve and maintain our customer experience!! Perhaps the next time we run a sale, “Return of the Black Queen” will be on your list! Thanks again!!

p.s. if anyone who has purchased this film wouldn’t mind commenting your thoughts on it, I’d love to hear from you as well!!

RalphM

@Johnhugger, @RalphM: No worries, guys– we understand the price concern, trust me, we do. We could have just as easily broken the film up into 4 parts at $29.99 each, but we decided to stick with 3 parts. At 4 parts, each film would have been about 30 minutes still… We will probably launch the whole movie at $89.99 which will equal out to $29.99 per film – then, if you’re VIP, you still get your discount off of that.

Just an FYI for everyone, we are launching “The Demon Within” at the same price point. It’s a full-length feature film, just like “Return of the Black Queen”. Perhaps more to the general tastes of the Superheroine-viewing public. It will be 3 parts at $39.99 each. If you guys really want us to, we can launch 4 parts at $29.99 each but I don’t really see the point– unless there’s something specific you’re looking for and only want one part of the full film… You guys let me know what works best for you and I’ll take it into account for future releases! I’ve gotten some great feedback on “Return of the Black Queen” [part 1] via email– I’d love to see some posts about it from my viewers to share with others!

We have no intention of going past the $39.99 mark for a single release. Seasons and Compilations are obviously a different story, and of course the length of the film along with the complexity of filming has an influence on the price. We noticed some of our competitors at and above $39.99 price points. We also notice others around $14.99-$19.99, but then again, we take into account the length of the film and production quality as well.

Because of the high demand so far for this film, we feel the price point is justifiable. We don’t want to deter any viewers of course, we’re simply gauging our price point from purchase history and trending.

For those who have purchased and watched, many thanks! This full film took half a month to film and I’m personally very happy with the outcome!

Logan

Aldous

So I love Heroine Legends. I mean, proper love em. My favourite producer at the moment. However…39 dollars!! For the first of a three parter? That puts the complete film at over 100 dollars!! Can’t take a punt on that. Now, there’s a flip side to this coin. Feet ain’t my bag. Whipping scenes are. Don’t judge me. But if this film featured one of my favourite heroines bound aoh defiantly taking a flogging, I wouldn’t be able to slam my 39 dollars down hard enough. So, maybe the inflated price is worth it to those it’s worth it to?

@Aldous: I guess it all comes down to this: We treat the ‘parts’ of an episode like a season episode. Agent Files and Season episodes are $29.99. They run 16 minutes to 30 minutes. This, to us, is a great price. It may seem high because it’s all at once, but it’s treated just like a Season Episode. So this would be (to us) “Return of the Black Queen” [Episode 1 of 3]. We can always redo the structure to be 4 parts– like 4 episodes in a mini-season. I broke it up intentionally so that each part has equal amounts of action. You guys tell me what makes more sense to you… If I need to recut it and relaunch as 4 parts, I can do that. On a separate note, there are 2 different types of whipping scenes in (I believe it will be) part 2 of “The Demon Within”.

Anyways, let me know what you guys think! Maybe the terminology of it being one part of a longer movie is throwing off the fact that its actually exactly the same as one episode in a season…

Logan

ximi

I’d suggest breaking it into more parts and charge lower price for each part. You don’t have to lower the overall dollar-per-minute ratio. Two reasons that works better:

1) lower the entry risk for people to try out your product. For a new person, much easier to try out a $20 product than a $40 one. If he likes it, he will continue for rest; if not, he will stop. Right now $40 simply stopped many people from trying.

2) I can choose to buy only the part I like. For example this one, I am very interested the first half (by the review) but have absolutely no interest in the second half. I am willing to buy the first half for $20, but not the whole thing for $40 since the second half has no meaning to me.

@ximi: I appreciate your break-down and explanation! It makes sense to me. I may break-down “Ground Zero”, “Return of the Black Queen”, and “The Demon Within” into smaller portions just like that. I’d be curious to hear from others as well to see if this is a common consensus. I can completely understand the thought process here and I can look into re-editing this (though it will take a few day) to get it to that length/price point. Thanks again, ximi!

Logan

JohnHugger

Why don’t you guys sell the scenes of the movie? You could describe each scene and we choose what we’d like to buy. I think more then US$29,99 it’s too much per movie. I understand the cost issue, but you can make a good movie for this genre with 20 minutes for $ 20. That has been the general idea so far. Does it need to change? The audience is really asking something justifue investments at this level? I’m a great fan of you guys. I’d like to make my own movies some day. And you guys, and NGC, and TBFE have been making great movies. I’m always looking for your productions, but … US$ 40.00?

@JohnHugger: I see the intention of the idea, but with a full film like this that has 20 scenes, that would be a lot of individual sales and a lot of “inventory” to keep track of in our system. We do like to keep our prices competitive and we shouldn’t be overpriced, however we should be priced at a cost level that matches our production value. Essentially, we can look at staying at the $29.99 price point and below– we just have to recut the parts. It’s a 45 minute film currently for $39.99 ($35.99 for VIP). Maybe we will look into 20-25 minute cuts at a $24.99-$29.99 price point which VIP will still get their discount off of.

A reminder to those who think the film is all foot fetish– it’s not. It’s definitely a recurring theme because of the custom, but it’s still a “Heroine Legends” film through and through.

@Aldous: And I just remembered that we have a whipping scene with a riding crop between the Black Queen and Halo. I’ll have to figure out which part it’s going to be once everything is re-cut. Assuming we go that path.

I’m still uncertain whether or not to go this path because, even at the price point it’s currently at, it’s one of our best-selling films so far and the feedback has been very positive, even from fans who have stated they weren’t foot fetish fans. We’ll mull it over and make a choice soon as far as the cuts and pricing points.

I still welcome all suggestions! Thanks for everyone who has commented!!

I decided to just go ahead and change where the cuts were to essentially make more parts to the film. They will likely be around a $29.99 price point, but you will have more options when choosing what parts you’d like to purchase… I’ll, of course, create more trailers as well. I’m working on it now. The prices won’t necessarily be static and set– I’ll price each individual part on the content, length, and other factors so each one is worth it’s value to our fans. This seems to be the best way to accommodate everyone. For those who have already purchased part 1, when we release part 2, I’ll work with you so the pricing matches and you aren’t paying more– assuming you want both parts. Hope this is at least a middle-ground solution for everyone!! Thanks for the input!!

Logan

mantower

Hey guys, a bit late to the party here but I thought it would be worth throwing my 5 cents in as it seems my first comment parked the discussion. I think Ximi’s idea is excellent as I, like him, would buy the first half of the video where you have the fight scene where Kristina is defeated, but the second half doesn’t look like my cup of tea. Now I see that Logan has decided to do exactly that, and I cannot praise him enough for doing so.Seriously,to have a producer take the feedback he gets to heart and actually act on it right away is, well, commendable. Now I am looking forward to the ore cut up version of the video,as well as The Demon Within. Gosh dang it I am going to have to remortgage my house…. Logan, kudos to you – I wish more producers took such pride in their product and paid this much attention to their clientele!

@mantower: My goal is to have great films that my fans also enjoy! I understand I have a wide and varying demographic of fans– many don’t post to any boards but rather email me directly– which I am totally fine with. The film in its entirety will obviously remain the same. If I can show my films to more viewers by simply taking a few extra hours to recut and realign my distribution process, then so be it– it’s worth it to me! Luckily, when I made the 1st trailer, I only went so far into the 1st part and it lines up with the new cut of the first part… the 2nd trailer– not so lucky. So I’m in the process of creating a new 2nd trailer. Once I get that done, I’ll render and export, then upload to my server. My plan (please don’t hold me to this) is to have this completed by early tomorrow. The export process takes a bit of time. I’ll update this board when I complete it!

**UPDATE: The 2nd trailer has been created and is up on our site! It’s attached to the 1st part of the film and that film is now exporting. That will take about another hour or so, then I need to upload it to my server which takes the most time. Everything is on schedule to launch it tomorrow! Thanks for all the feedback, guys!

Logan

Mike A

Hey HeroineLegends, love to see a bit more ko content in your films. You seem to gloss over the ko’s like a means to an end, while I feel like they should get a bit more focus. Also, any chance of FINALLY getting a heroine in pantyhose, preferably tan nylons? All of them are mostly bare legged. At least throw in one that isnt, and then promptly ko and capture her lol

Hunter

Honestly I feel everything above $19.99 seems really excessive to me. I know it is niche and there is only a limited audience for those movies but I just don’t think you are even serving your own financial interests by making these movies so expensive. I’m by no means poor but I just can’t justify to myself paying those prices for 20-25min of content.

@Mike A: We’ve actually had a lot of KOs recently as a response to viewers who requested them. We do mix up the methods of KO as much as possible, but include them as much as possibly none-the-less. All 3 Agent Files include KO’s– several of them. Return of the Black Queen [part 1] has a KO. Most of “The Academy” films featured a KO. Two of the “Power Hungry” Films and the “Ground Zero” films featured multiple KOs as well. We added this as well as multiple low blows into most of our films (Return of the Black Queen [part 1] has a long, lingering low blow) in response to our fans. One each episode page at our website, you will see a column on the left with a section that says “Action Elements”. In there, you will see if there is a KO or other type of fetish element that most of our fans look for. After listing those films out, we actually have a KO in almost every single film we’ve released since the original season ended. As far as nylons, we have considered the option. So far we’ve gotten 3 actresses with fishnets– Nightshadow, Iris, and Allura who all appear in the “Ground Zero” trilogy. Allura has pantyhose underneath the fishnets. In “Return of the Black Queen” [later parts], Thorne as the Black Queen wears pantyhose, but you only see it on her feet (as requested by the custom-orderer). As we revamp the costumes, we will look into the options of mix-and-matching some with nylons. (Some may notice, some may not– we have been upgrading the costumes all around. Every heroine is getting a costume upgrade as we continue on. Beginning with Thorne in Episode 1 of Season 2).

@Hunter: I’ve looked at pretty much everyone else’s site who is at all similar to us and it seems that $22.99, $24.95, and $29.99 are the target price points for full length episodes. Smaller episodes are typically priced lower, and that’s no different with us. Everything in our “The Archives” section has been price-reduced to be in line with other producers. Honestly, the $39.99 price was uncomfortable for me when I launched it. I knew that some were fine with it and some wouldn’t be. That’s why I listened to my viewers and split up the video more to match our normal releases in terms of content, length, etc. I wouldn’t release a brand-new 30 minute video for $19.99 unless I knew the content didn’t match those of our $29.99 products. I know the 2nd “Return of the Black Queen” will be more niche-based, so it’s price will be lower, reflecting that. The 3rd installment is more like the 1st one, so it will be normal in pricing. Our pricing, as always, should and now does match our production values as well. Without stabbing at any producers, it’s hard to justify matching our prices where we have a full film-making process with top-quality gear and professionally trained actors and crew to other producers who film take by take with a hand-held camcorder. I don’t mean to take anything away from them– they are out there doing their thing and have found their niche, but there’s a huge difference in the final quality of both films– especially when we’re only talking an average of $5-$7 over our nearest fellow producers. Hope all that makes sense!!

Logan

Hunter

@HeroineLegends Obviously the argument about content quality falls flat because I can buy a multi-million dollar Hollywood production for $9.99 at the next best buy and I will never question it’s quality based on price.
Honestly this is not about justifying your prices compared to others, it has to be about the size of the niche that you are serving and as your content is fetish oriented but rarely ventures out of PG-13 territory and meets a base level quality (essentially low end cabel) I think your niche is simply larger than that of most other producers.
That is why I simply think there are a lot of people (like me) who are on the side-lines right now and either can’t afford or just refuse to buy video content above a certain price-point which would become customers if your prices would be more reasonable.
You used to offer an on demand option which I think was a good compromise but it looks like this is not available for the higher priced stuff.

@Hunter: I hear your point. I do understand it, but all of that aside, it simply costs us too much to produce a single episode to lower to that price point. When we began, we offered all films for $17.99– our sales dropped. As soon as we went back up to $24.99 (at the time), our sales tripled. Everyone has their limitations in any genre I suppose. As far as the on-demand option goes, it simply cost us more to pay the provider for that service than the number of views so we cancelled and disabled that option many months ago and have no plans to reinstate that option. My guess is that other producers have already realized this cost and elected to bypass the option.

As we roll sales through quarterly, the prices drop into the range you’re looking for with many videos. We also offer a random video every week on our homepage that is reduced 25% or more in the left column. Out trending has been very good and like I mentioned before, “Return of the Black Queen” has done very well– even at the $39.99 price point. That will change later today, though. I hope that addresses the concerns you have. As far as buying a film at Best Buy for $9.99, yes that is true. But I can also download free porn, yet there are plenty of pay sites doing just fine

I feel like I’m bombing my own post here with all these after-thoughts. Wish I was thin king all of this at once, but anyway:

The new Weekly Sale item is the “Power Hungry” Feature Pack– it’s $39.99 for all 3 episodes. For those who have been following this post and were looking for a lower price-point, that equates to about $13.33-ish for each episode! Sale ends on Saturday. Thanks!

Logan

Mark

I’ve always kept an interested eye on what the guys and girls at ‘Heroine Legends’ have been getting up to, and have purchased a few releases. Now, things may have changed on latter releases, but I’ve been out off by several factors, and some which bring into question the pricing. One is the ‘bang per buck’ you get per episode; I got the first release straight away, but boy, for something almost 20 minutes long and over twenty buck, had less action than say a NGC Side Mission or Training Room. Quality wise, picture and sound are no where near as good as NGC (sound is especially a problem – one release I purchased (1.11 – Awakening) sounds like I’m listening to it with custard in my ears. Half of the dialog, I simply couldn’t tell what was being said). And even with the ‘cheaper’ releases like ‘The Torture Chamber: Session 9′, the quality of the filming from the fixed cameras, and overall choreography is no where near as slick as NGC (sorry for referencing NGC all the time, but other than HL stuff, they’re the only company I buy heroine related work from). Therefore, with this ‘hit and miss’ nature, I’m always put off ‘dipping my toe’ again, especially on something costing $40, regardless of how insanely hot ‘Thorne’ is!

In addition, whilst I understand that it’s obviously still expensive to film work such as this, with it all being from a ‘custom’ purchase, I can never understand that a similar pricing structure can still exist…unless all your releases are customs! Surely if someone has already covered a large part of the costs, a lower price should be reflected in the pricing?

Obviously my comments are based on limited exposure to the product and thereofre I may be doing them a disservices, but the issues mentioned make it difficult for me to ‘climb down off the fence’ and purchase other HL releases, which is a real shame as they have some great talent and seems to listen to the fans about content!

@Mark: I definitely need to address your concerns here because you bring up very valid points that I haven’t addressed yet:

*Sound/Audio: It wasn’t until we got into “Ground Zero” and later that we got the funds up to purchase high-quality audio equipment. From that point on, audio hasn’t been an issue. But I do understand your concern there. We did go back to our previous episodes and re-master the audio. Most of it is fixed now for past episodes. For “Ground Zero”, “Return of the Black Queen”, “The Demon Within”, and all future episodes, I guarantee you that our audio is amazing– we knew about this achilles heel and we finally got to the point where we could do something about it. Our audio equipment now is the industry standard for Hollywood.

*Picture quality: A lot of this is in post-productions. We use very high-end cameras, but color-correction can make or break the picture. We began using 7 different editors at the beginning. Each one had a different look. Saturation levels were different Contrast was different, etc. We’ve since switched to one, single in-house editor, not including myself for all episodes to maintain a consistent experience. We also now film on an industry-standard Hollywood camera. This began with “The Demon Within” – you will notice a huge change in picture quality.

*The Torture Chamber: This set of films had almost no choreography. The entire series was improvised by the actors. There was no script, no fight choreography. It was raw emotion, raw dialogue, raw action. When people said “Hey, those reactions looked real”– well, that’s because they were. Everything was made up on the spot with a very vague plot given as direction and shot in one single take. It was an artistic choice and a trial. Those films have been reduced in price under “The Archives” section and the series was discontinued. We try new things all the time and some things work, some don’t.

*The $40 mark: Gone. Fixed. Only Feature Packs, Compilations, etc are at or beyond this mark. That’s only because you’re getting a lot for that price. We’ve adjusted “Return of the Black Queen” to be on par with everything else.

*Custom pricing: We will probably never recoup the costs this film took to make. Without getting into any specifics, the custom-orderer covered about a third of the total cost for this film. We spent 12 full days filming it, paying SAG rates to all cast and crew. In Hollywood, as a SAG-Signatory company, we don’t have the option to fluctuate what we pay to our cast and crew. There are set prices that we have to abide by. This is true with ALL of our films. We very rarely every actually break even on our films. But– we choose to do them because you guys have been great fans and we enjoy making these films. We challenge ourselves to do more, learn more, and get deeper into the comic book fantasy land. This project has helped us in so many non-monetary ways. It has been extremely beneficial on many levels.

I’m glad you posted your thoughts about our series. It definitely helps us to grow and we take all criticism for what it is – an opportunity to make things better. I hope you eventually try out another film– “The Demon Within” would be a great place to start if “Return of the Black Queen” doesn’t interest you. “Ground Zero” [1] was also a very popular video for us.

Thank you very much again for the input– we really do appreciate it and it gave me the opportunity to clear a few things up that others were possibly concerned about!

Logan

Hunter

@HeroineLegends Just to make one last comment here because you again mentioned that you cannot go lower with the prices because they already don’t cover your costs: That argument simply makes no sense. Most iPhone games cost $1 on average and they often times make more money than $60 retail games.
I just can’t believe that your sales would not significantly increase if you lower your prices. There is simply a threshold there in my opinion where people (like me) would bite and start to become customers. If most of your catalog would be $10-$15 I would have probably purchased almost all of your movies and you would have seen hundreds of dollars of sales from me. I can’t be the only one thinking that way.

Of course you know best what your sales curve looks like and I’m sure you did the math so I will shut up now. The fact that you don’t turn a profit on most production should give you pause for thought though and maybe try a different approach.

Steve

@Hunter: iPhone games are sold by the millions, world-wide. The films are sold– well, I won’t get into exact numbers, but no where even close to what you might think. As far as lowering our prices, I’ve done it. Our sales went down. I raised the prices back up, they tripled. And the fact that we don’t turn a profit on most films is because our costs are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than other producers. I’ve worked with other producers. My cost is over ten times theres was for each video. I’m a Hollywood, SAG-signatory production company. That’s just how it is. We have released 53 episodes so far. The $29.99-priced episodes are the highest-purchased items. The cheaper ones, the lowest. Now, that doesn’t make any sense to me– the same as when we lowered all of our videos to $17.99 and barely sold anything for an entire week. The day we bumped the price back up to $24.99 for those videos, it was like $24.99 was the sale. It is what it is. Our price point has proven to work up through and including now. Honestly, I could have kept “RotBQ” at $39.99 and everything would have been fine. It’s one of the most purchased films and it’s only been out a few days. I tried to even the pricing out for everyone and apparently I can’t make everyone happy. I’ve settled at $29.99 for the 1st release. It makes the most sense and it aligns with all of our other products. If you can’t justify spending that much on the film, then I can only tell you that you can wait for a sale to run or forego the film. Of course, I wouldn’t prefer that, but I can’t lower the costs anymore and continue to film these videos. If you’re a fan of us, you’ll stick with us. We do our best to relay the elements in our films for those who are selective with their purchases. I guess all I can say is that if you’re looking for a $10-$15 price point, there are producer out there at that price. I’m sure they will continue releasing products at that price point. On the flip side, you have Ring Divas (I’ve never seen their films and this is not to criticize or jab at them in any way) who sell a majority of their films around $39.99 and they seem to be doing very well. I’ve tried to find a middle ground between our costs and the pricing of the films. I could take a cheap video camera into a garage and film a few people in store-bought Halloween costumes rolling around and fighting– having them say lines they are given prior to each take and sell those films for $10-$15 but that’s not what we do at “Heroine Legends”. We film with high-quality equipment, we pay everyone mandated rates, every costume is custom-made, and we have to pay for our various locations and also for permits. Our costs are probably of no concern to our fans– understandably. I’m simply revealing the reason behind our costs. We are competitive with NGC, Ring Divas, TBFE, and several other companies and we have a LONG list of fans who have expressed their satisfaction with our films.

@Steve: Our sales trends say otherwise.

Guys, I feel I am one of the most hands-on producers who does their best to please their fans, but at this point, I’m burned out on this topic. You said the price was too high. I lowered the price and it wasn’t good enough. If you’re going to follow our series, you’re going to follow our series. I appreciate every fan I have and I thank everyone who has been following “Heroine Legends”!! Thanks again!!

Our weekly sale has resulted in almost no interaction. These films are around $15 each. Some lower. The Power Hungry trilogy equates to $13.33 per film. No bites. We had Episode 1.10 on sale for over a week – we only had 2 purchases. When we changed it from Episode 1.8, all of the sudden, we sold 4 copies of 1.10. Today, I sold 3 copies of 1.8 which was on sale all week and no one bought it. So to end this topic of cost– cost isn’t the issue. I run my sales and those who keep track will buy when an episode they want shows up in the sale column– but ironically enough, the sale items don’t sell until they are back to normal price. Go figure.

Logan

ximi

First of all, thanks a lot for paying attention and engaging the fans, not many producers do that.

Now a couple of thoughts I have while reading all these discussions. Just random thoughts – I am not going to suggest how you should change your pricing points, I am darn sure you know how to do that better than me.

For one, let’s don’t forget we are talking about a fetish market segment here. Your product is a bit less fetish than some others, but still a fetish product. So please ignore all comparison to Hollywood movies, iPhone games etc., they don’t apply. I can’t speak for everyone, but I believe a large group of your target (like myself :-)) is a lot more sensitive to content than price. I am more than willing to pay say $30 for twenty minutes of “good” content than paying $10 for a hour long movie without the “stuff”. So if you have sales challenges, or want to expand, my suggestion is to focus more on reviewing the style and content. Your price point is probably not a major issue.

Now for the price point, several guys are simply saying you can lower the price points but increase total revenue due to larger sales. Make no mistake, we all want you to have larger total revenue :-). I have no idea what your elastic curve is, but please do not draw conclusion based on the facts you listed in the last post: 2 copies, 3 copies, 4 copies – classic statement “sample size is too small for statistical significance”.

@ximi: I appreciate the feedback, it’s been very helpful. I guess I reached out a bit too far for examples to try and explain things. What it all comes down to is exactly what you said. The price isn’t really what matters– it’s the content. So content-based, we see what we need to do to continue the series with the most followers. Those who choose to watch “The Demon Within” will see that. I wrote that film for the first time as a comic fan myself while including elements that I know others would appreciate. The story is 100% exactly what I would want to see– this film is the one I am most excited to see completed of everything we’ve filmed. “Ground Zero” is a close second to that. If I wasn’t the producer, I would buy “The Demon Within” myself even if the price-point was high. Why? Because of the content– which goes right back to your point. So, I agree. As far as sample size, etc– those examples were a daily example– the trend is exactly the same on every film. And again, I’m happy with the way we’ve priced everything. I make small adjustments here and there as I see fit, but overall, it’s been working well for us and apparently, from sales numbers, also for our fans– which is most important!! The lower-priced films just don’t seem to sell. Here’s a good example: Episode 1.5 was $19.99 for a very long time and had random sales. Now, it’s $24.99 and is one of the best sellers now. It’s hard to predict how that works. Everything has a value I suppose. Anyway, we will continue to price our films as fairly as possible even with the improvements we continue to make– that is just the nature of the art. Thanks for commenting and following our series!!

Logan

mantower

Wow… I really opened up a can of worms with that first post, sorry Logan. Now that you lowered the price I will buy the video today because I really do want to see Thorne get a beating :). Just to change the subject, you mentioned TBFE in an earlier post, do you (or anybody) know what happened to them? The last video they out out was months ago, I tried to contact them a few weeks back and no reply. Have they stopped doing videos? If they have it would be a real shame, they along with NGC and HL were really making great videos.

@mantower: Yeah, it’s been quite the discussion here today No worries though, I hear everyone’s point. I can’t accommodate all the requests, but I do listen and try to work with everyone the best I can! Thank you for purchasing the film– after you watch it, let me know your thoughts– I’m interested to hear back from someone who saw the film since the whole post was about the cost, and not the actual film itself. I don’t know how many people remember, but I had mentioned once that I actually used to play the role of ‘Kaid’ in his series and therefore carried the character over to “Heroine Legends”. Allen and I keep in contact– I don’t want to get into his personal life as he would be the one to comment on that, but the last I heard about the series is that he was on a hiatus. Without asking him directly, I couldn’t tell you how long that hiatus is meant to be. I’ll give him a shout and see if he can either make a post or check up on some emails though

Logan

Steve

Erik

I don’t see the big issue with pricing. Honestly it just reeks of people being cheapskates. It’s not like you have to buy every single video that comes out from every single producer. If you have an issue with pricing, then don’t buy it. It’s really as simple as that. Expecting these videos to all be like $10 is silly.

John

Howdy Logan! I haven’t bought anything from you yet but I may in the near future. I have my eye on the sg movie but I want to see a trailer before I commit to anything. I am not excited about her boots but if the trailer looks good I can probably overlook them.

I was curious about what you said about yer costs being really high. Can you tell us more about that? I have always wondered what these things cost to make, especially on the level your team is making them. Y’all don’t have to be exact, just a general ball park would be great and it might even help some people better understand the pricing debate.

Oh and do I need to buy something first to get the vip discount or can I just sign up for that and then go buy something?

Thanks and y’all keep doing what yer doing!

Darn it, one more thing! If I wanted to get a custom movie done from heroine legends do I have to give you a fully detailed script or can I give you my basic idea and let you fill in some blanks? I’ll be lookin to fund one soon but I want to make sure who ever makes it is ok with a story they can add their own parts or dialogue to. I’m just not good at writing that sort of stuff.

@Erik: That’s actually what I’ve been finding myself. Before I dropped the price, we actually had a much better success rate with the film. I may have to go with my gut from now on when it comes to pricing– but I’m glad I’m not alone on this! I’ve gotten a few emails from fans who said I shouldn’t have dropped the price but it’s already done now. I’ll take an extra minute to look at all details again when it comes time to release the next one! Thanks!!

@John: It’s funny about the boots. When I designed the costume, the first thing I said was “I don’t want red boots”. When we went to the fittings with our actresses, I let the girls involved pick out the boots. All of them came to the boots that you see in the movie. We actually had to special order for size. So, anyway– we’ll see how you guys feel about it– it’s one of the things the girls couldn’t stop talking about the whole shoot! They wanted to take the boots home for their own personal collections. The VIP discount is easy– go to our list, put your email address in the box and hit Join. I don’t need any personal info from anyone. You don’t have to buy anything to join. It’s sort of like a mailing list– periodically, I send out emails with new releases and VIP-only sales and the VIP discount code comes through those communications. You could buy or not buy, but still be VIP. As far as movie pricing goes, I know if I broke down costs, you guys wouldn’t believe the amount it takes BUT what makes my expenses SO much more than everyone else, is that I’m also a mainstream Hollywood producer. I live in a world where I say “movie” and all the sudden everything is expensive. I’m from the east coast of the US, and if I made a movie there, the quality would be lower, yes, but I could crank out these videos at $300 or less. There are days I wish I was doing that. Cross the Line Films, LLC is my production company. We are SAG-franchised which means we belong to the Union out here and have to abide by their terms. First off, we have to pay actors a minimum rate per day. Overtime is enforced. For the Ultra-Low agreements, it’s $100/day. That may not seem like a lot, but when you film 4 days with an average of 3-4 people on set, you’re around an average of paying $1,600/day just to have the actors be there. Without calculating overtime– which is inevitable on set. I have to provided a catered lunch to them as well. Then, I have my crew- similar rates as actors. Some of my crew costs more. Luckily, I’m the director so I save some there. I also take over camera on many projects to save there too– and obviously fight choreography. Then, because I want a higher production, we custom-make every single costume. We began with a private seamstress and we now have an entire team that is located on the Hollywood strip. Average costumes are $400-$500 with boots included. Our equipment is constantly being upgraded– everything is purchased in hundreds to thousands of dollars for that. Lenses, upgraded cameras, dollies, stabilizers, rigs, jibs, batteries, memory, etc. Locations– the cheapest location I’ve gotten was at $200/day (again, without any overtime or cleaning fees). I’ve avoided permits thus far only for “Heroine Legends” (it severely limits my locations since I don’t get them but I have to do SOMETHING to keep costs down) – but those area minimum of $700 for a location that can be used up to two weeks. Editing is a big one too. Post Production rates can vary, but usually, it equates to 30-50% of the money you already spent, and add it on top for the editor. Of the season episodes, I believe the least expensive episode was Episode 1.10– our costs were higher than this, but if you plug in the numbers without overtime, you have 7 actors ($700/day), 6 crew (round down to $700/day for this example), 3 days, lunch ($100-$150/day – includes some costs for craft services which is always-there snacks), location ($450/day for this location), editing ($1,250 for this episode), costumes (Rain: $400, SITA: $140/each, lab coat: $30). If you add just those totals up, you get $8,100. That’s lower than the actual costs, but works for example-purposes. Now compare a $300 video filmed in a garage with store-bought costumes to an $8,100 film because it’s filmed under the union in Hollywood. If I sell a film at $30, I can sell 10 (not calculating PayPal or Product Hosting fees or income taxes) and break even. For me, I have to sell 270 of that product to break even. Some producers in this genre are making a good amount of money off of this. We definitely aren’t, needless to say. But it is experience and we are growing as a company. “Heroine Legends” is far from our only project. We film 22+ days per month on projects to keep our momentum going. For those who wanted to know, there it is laid out for you. How do we keep going? Investors, custom orders, loans, selling other ventures we have our hands in, etc. Speaking of custom orders, we’ve had a few turn-aways based on price. Now you know why our custom pricing is what it is. Even after the custom-orderer pays their agreed portion, we have A LOT left to cover. Anyway, John, there ya go If you have any more questions, please don’t hesitate to ask!

We just received a custom request from the website and the email address was not properly filled out, so we have no way to reply to that message. If this was you, please send again with your email address filled out or send directly to info@HeroineLegends.com – thanks!

Logan

John

Thanks for the response Logan! Much appreciated! So one episode costs you about 1,600 give or take, but if I ordered a custom movie I wouldn’t need to cover the full 1,600 then? How much of that would I need to pay? This sounds like a good deal!

That custom request snafoo wasn’t me by the way. Im not finished with my story just yet.

No, one episode costs us (in that example) $8,100. The $1,600 was just for the actors in that example. I used to have a chart up that outlined the costs, but we took it down. Each quote varies depending on number of actors, length, and what is needed. For instance, beatdown videos cost a little more because it takes a LONG time to get constant fight footage. Dialogue is easy. Fighting and effects are the hard parts. And then each actress has her own limitations, comfort-wise. What has been working for us are the people who know what they want to spend on a custom and who communicate that figure to us in an email along with their idea or script idea– that way, I am not throwing random numbers around. I can see what your idea will cost, how much you will cover, and work with you on what I can do for the given costs. Hope that makes sense!! (Also, we take money off a custom if the orderer is willing to work with us so I can make it fit in with our series. It makes things easier for me, so I cut a deal for them)

It’s an interesting topic–costs. Not least interesting is that if you were to survey all the producers across the spectrum, from little Clips4Sale stores to the non-profit fan films to Giga and Zen, you will find that everyone has completely different cost structures.

For example, we pay all actresses a day rate of at least $800 each, and frequently $1000 each if the action involves anything graphic or is just going to be particularly arduous. SAG minimums are well below industry standards in the LA fetish and adult business (at least for top talent).

Sets usually run $100 an hour when we’re shooting in a studio or in the ring, so that usually adds anywhere from $500 to $800, assuming we can shoot everything in one day.

Wardrobe, in my experience, even factoring in costumes we make specially made for our own videos, usually runs between $250 and $400.

Now, I imagine if you were to examine the production process over at GIGA, you would find something COMPLETELY different than either mine or HL’s process. Next Global Crisis, I would surmise, has a completely different cost structure as well. And non-profit fan films? Often times half the cast, if not the entire cast and crew, are working for FREE, because they just like the project, or want something to put on their reel.

In a nutshell, there is no fixed “cost” for these things. Producers come from all over the world and approach the business in completely different ways and with different obstacles to overcome. Accordingly, prices will vary. If a video seems overpriced, don’t buy it! But remember, if a producer continues to sell videos at what seems to you like a high price, it’s probably because that price is working for him, i.e., plenty of people DON’T think it’s too expensive. You can’t really fault the producer for selling his product at the price that seems to be bringing the best returns. That’s just the way markets work; but also remember, every time you buy a video–or refuse to buy one–you are making a contribution to the dynamics of this market. Producers do take notice. The best thing you can do is “vote” with your dollars.

Very true. The price structure has more to do with keeping your product SUSTAINABLE than anything else, especially if your intent is to self-produce multiple films. We are all TRYING to offer our product at the lowest possible price (per our production level) to reachest the widest possible audience. I don’t know of any niche clip producer that is rolling in cash (unless they were ALREADY rolling in cash before they started).

Everytime a new producer enters the scene with a new production model you’ll see their prices jitter all over the place until they can figure out what does or doesn’t work for them specifically. And once they get comfortable you’ll see them experiment with new formats to see if they can’t reach a little further or do a little better. Meanwhile other producers will be watching to see how customers react and to see how it all plays out.

For example we have learned to stay the Hell away from pay-per-view. Thanks for test-driving that one.

Fanfilms are a different animal entirely… most often driven by passion (and often delusion) rather than any sort of business logistics. Fanfilms are NOT meant to be sustainable.

Chris

@Alex Bettinger: I completely agree. I can only speak for my own costs when it comes to producing any of the films we do. We considered doing a harder fetish series at one point and went through fetish models which, as you stated, were a minimum of $100/hour. Your last paragraph probably sums it up better than I’ve even said it throughout this thread!

@Cult Retro: Sustainability is a good choice of words there! And you’re welcome for the PPV trail and error – you’re right to stay away from it!

@Chris: I think we are all doing our best to create exciting and original content you guys will enjoy while trying to stay above water overall. We’ll continue to push on and hopefully we don’t disappoint!!

Thanks guys!

Logan

Golden

This is a really interesting debate (sorry for being late on this because I do not check the site every day).

As a fan of the genre it is very interesting looking at things from both sides. From the producer side you need to make a profit, period. The best movies have the highest production costs and without you all turning a profit there would be no movies for anyone to choose from!

As a fan, our challenge is to pick the ones that meet what we need. As a fan of f/f action I often find it hard to find good videos believe it or not. (With the exception of a few companies) often the trailer will suggest a lot of f/f action then deliver very little; either because it transcends quickly in to femdom, or has more m/f action. Take Black Queen 3, given the trailer and the undeniable hotness of Kristina Hess may tempt me to purchase… however if my expectations are not met I may think twice before trying out another production and the high price provides a real barrier for what is in many respects a risk (ps. Trailer for Black Queen 4 looks epic).

From a fans perspective, could producers introduce a few more screenshots to help people make the right choice, or a bit more detail about the film beyond plot and stroyline?

From a pricing perspective, I fully expect the price charged to reflect the costs inured, being small (probably even micro) studios I would not expect you to overcharge because it would not make business sense

What are your thoughts on open pricing like the system used by many musicians on Bandcamp? You set a minimum and let the buyer decide how much to pay; for example you set min for a video at $19 and then let people decide how much to offer. Studies I have read (all using big band examples however) show that although the majority pay the minimum, a very significant proportion will pay much more which often pulls up the total revenue beyond what you would have seen from a fixed pricing structure. I know there are some studios for whom I would pay a little more than the asking price simply as a thank you gesture for their previous work and as encouragement to keep going. Would to know the thoughts of Logan, Alex et al on that one.

Thanks for an enlightening debate

mantower

So, to get back to the actual video. As I told Logan, I bought the first one once the price had been dropped as I really wanted to see Thorne knocked the f*** out. And that part of the movie was awesome, her outfit is truly stunning and the fight scene, although short, was good. The backbreaker was nice to see, although if I am nitpicking I would say that once the heroine is on the villain’s knee, he shouldn’t be holding her legs up, he should let her legs drop and push down on them for full effect. I mean that is just a small detail, but it makes a difference. Also, one point about fights in most of these films, and this is something I have seen in Heroine Legends TBFE and NGC videos, when the villain turns the tables and knocks the heroine down why do they always wait for the heroine to recover and get back into fighting stance?I mean I know this is a fetish video and most guys like to see a nice long drawn out pained reaction from the heroine, but it would make more sense if the villain pounces on the heroine before she gets up and dusts herself off ready to fight back, no? I know if I were a villain I wouldn’t wait for this super powered broad to get back into shape before I attack again. I just think that such long pauses interrupt the flow of the fight and don’t make that much sense, I think you can still have the long drawn out reaction with the villains actually capitalizing on the advantage they get. That’s just something that’s been bugging me for a while now with most of the recent releases.

OK, so onto the rest of the video. Unfortunately I really did not enjoy it, as was mentioned earlier in these thread most of us buy these videos for the fetish purposes, that fetish being heroines in peril, and I am one of those who really does not follow the story. Thus, this video did not do it for me as it did not have enough of the fetish (heroine losing) elements in there, the foot thing is not for me and there was just too much femdom in there. So overall, as much as the production quality was top notch (nice effort on the pulled out heart by the way!) I know I won’t be buying any more of the Black Queen series. This is in no way a criticism of Heroine Legends or your production quality which is, well, outstanding. I understand this was a custom and it is clear you guys did your best to work it into the HL world and make it a HL video, it just wasn’t my cup of tea. Bring on the Demon Within