Marshall Brain's thoughts ring true from that final chapter as this is what humanity needs to do now, regardless of a belief in a God or not.

Humans have the ability to change yet most won't do what it takes to create something good for all. Reminds me of the small elephant tied with a small rope, as the elephant grows it could easily break that rope now, but since it is conditioned since birth to not escape its bond, it never even thinks to try.

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I am not asking what is truth, even though I seek it, I will know when truth is in front of me, when it is internally consistent, coherent with knowledge, congruent with like experience, useful for helping me organize my thinking, this is all I can ask in seeking the truth.

Yes, the problem of the haves and have not's is a very tough one to overcome.

What do you feel it would take from humanity itself to overcome this problem?

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I am not asking what is truth, even though I seek it, I will know when truth is in front of me, when it is internally consistent, coherent with knowledge, congruent with like experience, useful for helping me organize my thinking, this is all I can ask in seeking the truth.

I'm not sure humanity has it in itself to do something like that. Ever since we left Africa we have been territorial...tribal. The more people we put on the planet (7 billion now) the more resources will be used up. This will drive us to be worse to each other. Look at the US now. Most of our foreign policy revolves around resources a country has that we want.

We need population control in the US. We are getting to have too many people and use up our resources. The only alternative is to eventually go to war over resources.

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People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe. Max Bazenman, Harvard University

I know it is hard to stop a rolling snowball (the world) that we have now, but I am also glad to seem some interest in change.

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I am not asking what is truth, even though I seek it, I will know when truth is in front of me, when it is internally consistent, coherent with knowledge, congruent with like experience, useful for helping me organize my thinking, this is all I can ask in seeking the truth.

That type of thinking is unfortunately far advanced from current thinking. Think of the conservative fear of Obama wanting a "new world order." But it is why the debates here at WWGHA are so important. Theist vs Atheist, Republican vs Democrat, Capitalist vs Communist, Mideast vs West, Have vs Have-Not - the fervor and steadfastness of our positions is the danger.

IMO, the basic idea of love, meaning standing in each other's shoes, is the basis of a "Venus project." It seems to me in the extreme - "bringing up the poor, and pulling down the rich," IS the solution for human longevity. While I find Jacque Fresco's "innovative incentive system" interesting, I somewhat disagree with Jacque Fresco on genes not being involved with greed.

Excluding human intervention, plants and animals thrive and continue based on survival of the fittest evolutionary selection, that looks for and most often finds a way past a species crisis. In other words, the natural system's surival of the fittest is like capitalism. An important argument for allowing the smartest and most ingenious unfettered progress.

That basic concept of life is somewhat lost with a Venus project. This is an old and new argument. How do we eliminate known species deficiencies? How do our morals come to play in a way that allows the super progress needed mixed with the love?

Another thing the Venus Project made me wonder about - IMO, we have small places where we are as community oriented as possible. The state of Oregon seems to have as much of this type of thinking as possible in the US compared to, say, Mississippi. Can we sell these progressive ideas worldwide if an area is set up to convince skeptics? Is there a place on earth now that is a microcosm of a simple beginning Venus project that is currently being carried out?

" That type of thinking is unfortunately far advanced from current thinking."

You are correct.

Watching Star Trek through the years and reading Marshall Brains ch 32 The Future of the Human Race from the WWGHA website, made me realize what we could have as a human race if we just worked together. But I can see as of now, humanity still is not ready for the advanced thinking needed for this change to occur. It sure is a grand vision though, how clean and pure the Venus Project World was however.

"Think of the conservative fear of Obama wanting a "new world order." But it is why the debates here at WWGHA are so important. Theist vs Atheist, Republican vs Democrat, Capitalist vs Communist, Mideast vs West, Have vs Have-Not - the fervor and steadfastness of our positions is the danger."

Yes, the danger is in the steadfastness and fervour of humanities positions and this could be the very thorn that would need to be pulled if we can progress into something like the Venus vision.

" Can we sell these progressive ideas worldwide if an area is set up to convince skeptics?"

This would be a start I would imagine, especially for the newness and curiosity factors that certainly would garner initial interest.

"Is there a place on earth now that is a microcosm of a simple beginning Venus project that is currently being carried out?"

There are plans in the works but nothing so far physically in place at least from what I could gather from their website.

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I am not asking what is truth, even though I seek it, I will know when truth is in front of me, when it is internally consistent, coherent with knowledge, congruent with like experience, useful for helping me organize my thinking, this is all I can ask in seeking the truth.

I think TVP is interesting, and I have a copy of his book The Best That Money Can't Buy. However, I think there's a lot of devils in the details standing in the way of TVP actually working. Renewable energy sources are diffuse and intermittent and have much lower EROEI (Energy Return On Energy Invested) than the cheap oil and other fossil fuels we're used to using. TVP seems to rely pretty heavily on giant mega-machines to build its buildings, and its cities assume a somewhat more jungly version of suburban sprawl (note the residential neighborhood he points out in the first video on the site). All that sprawl requires lots of transport (cars, and all those pretty flying machines), along with stretched-out utility grids (water, sewer, electric, etc.), and all of that requires lots, and lots of energy. In the case of the vehicles, it has to be concentrated, storable, portable energy. Until somebody invents a Mr. Fusion, that means fossil fuels. The mega-machines would also require high volumes of reliable, concentrated energy, the very stuff we're going to start having less and less of in the future.

I don't think TVP's "incentive" system would work as (vaguely) described. There are lots of dangerous, high-stress, or otherwise unpleasant or difficult jobs that can't be automated with current technology, and wouldn't be done by people seeking an outlet for their creativity. E.g., hotel housekeeper, server in a restaurant, farm labor, air traffic controller. Even roles that people might be motivated to do without compensation out of personal passion for the value of the work (say, neurosurgeon) would face "intermittency" problems when the neurosurgeon feels more like spending a day at the beach, and there is no "servitude" ("job," "money") that commits them to a regular work schedule. I think there are definitely ways that our current system could be improved (e.g. Economic Democracy and/or a "Basic Income Guarantee"), but I doubt it could be replaced entirely by TVP's "incentive system." What if there are more people showing up at the "claim domes" requesting dental work than there are available appointment openings with the people who want to be dentists?

His system also seems to completely ignore the existence of people who would want to cheat in order to achieve power and status. Like it or not, they exist, and they would either wreck a TVP system or act to prevent it from being created in the first place. Which leads to the next issue: if TVP requires a unified, benevolent world in order to be implemented, it will never be implemented. It would have to start small, maybe with a network of intentional communities, identify and solve the problems with its incentive system, work out the details of how to make things work within the limits of renewable energy sources and physical resource constraints, and environmental sustainability, etc. It would also have to be able to exist in a competitive relationship with the current global money-economy-military system. "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you." IOW, TVP may not want to compete with capitalism, but capitalism will want to compete with (or just plain eliminate) it.

I also think that any future sustainable society is going to have to look a lot more modest than those zeerust-inducing Cities and Machines of the Future. Cities like Venice, old London, Toledo, Spain--really, just about any city built before automobiles--have proven to be sustainable over hundreds, sometimes even thousands of years without fossil fuels. They're dense and walkable (because they had to be), and built to last. Add electricity, good plumbing and sanitation, and a train system to link them, and you're done. Real sustainable cities probably won't have that Tomorrowland look. On the other hand, places like Venice, Paris, Rome, Amsterdam, etc. are all incredibly beautiful compared to the average American suburban strip mall, so that people fly across oceans to see them. A big improvement over what we have now.

If somebody tells you that he has the solution for every problem of the whole planet, then I´m alarmed. How can one concept define every need and desire people will have in future societies? Today, we have no idea what future societies will be able to do, what technology is going to exist etc. So did ancient societies. They didn´t care about the generations ahead, otherwise industrial revolution had not happened. There is no ressource on the planet that we have so far used up or are going to. That´s the way green economy fans (especially here in Germany) argue, that we are on the edge, the end of the world is near. It is not.In Stone Age the mammuts were very important for the people running around at that time and maybe they couldn´t imagine how the world would be without these animals. Stone Age is over, mammuts are extincted, but the world moved on and so did we. It´s our creativity that´s going to show us the way and there is not only one....

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If 50 million people say a foolish thing it´s still a foolish thing (Bertrand Russel)

Maybe the place Glenn Beck is setting up will be the utopia the world needs to observe?

Hey, I'm all for giving those Rand-worshipping privileged numbskulls their own reality show, 24-7. Then when their little neo-con crazytown goes bankrupt, there will be that much more proof (for those who can accept it) that particular libertarian fantasy is bullshit.

And hey, if they make it work, I will publicly apologize and start / join one based on their model.

His system also seems to completely ignore the existence of people who would want to cheat in order to achieve power and status. Like it or not, they exist, and they would either wreck a TVP system or act to prevent it from being created in the first place. Which leads to the next issue: if TVP requires a unified, benevolent world in order to be implemented, it will never be implemented. It would have to start small, maybe with a network of intentional communities, identify and solve the problems with its incentive system, work out the details of how to make things work within the limits of renewable energy sources and physical resource constraints, and environmental sustainability, etc. It would also have to be able to exist in a competitive relationship with the current global money-economy-military system. "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you." IOW, TVP may not want to compete with capitalism, but capitalism will want to compete with (or just plain eliminate) it.

Good points. The same applies to any variation on the current economic / social norm, including Beck's Objectivist / Capitalist utopia. Such alternatives face an uphill struggle against a well-established system but in a sense, that's as it should be. In a time when even extremist crazies like the Westboro Baptists can get media access and exposure (in relatively tolerant places like the US), public scrutiny of new ideas can help expose problems and suggest (sometimes impose) solutions.

That's the ideal, of course. It's far from a level playing field and there are deeply entrenched power groups who have zero interest in sharing their positions.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 03:47:32 PM by wright »

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Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.--Marcus Aurelius

What we really lack are social norms for experimentation. Everyone thinks they know what the answer is and that everyone else is wrong. Hence virtually all political ramblings are over decisions that each of the combatants has already made. And each one is so sure their answer to any given problem will work that there is no need to even discuss it.

What we need are social processes that allow us to experiment with potential solutions, where we can allow for local economies, local cultures, local disaster potential (tsunamis, global warming) and other variables.

We need to ditch the economy as it now stands. There should be some way to deal with the financial extremes we have created via capitalism. When the Waltons can get filthy rich selling to the filthy poor, something somewhere has gone terribly wrong. But I'm guessing the extremely wealthy would, for the most part, disagree with me on that issue. Money makes things easy. Money makes things hard.

But no matter how well we learn to deal with problems, there will always be this: between governments and crime lords and unethical businessmen and terrorists, there are myriad places where devious powers can fill vacuums, and any effort to re-create any society that includes artificial shortages (of money, food, opportunity, power sources, water etc.) will immediately be filled by bad guys, very illegally. It will not be good.

I fear that there is no workable solution for us humans to discover. Because we're involved, and few of us are as wonderful as me. (I'm fantastic. PM me and I'll tell you where to send the money.)

Nature might have some say though. Without any thought whatsoever, our planet and/or the universe may have more to say about how well things go that we would like. I fear that many of our near-term changes will be reactions to things like global climate change and water shortages. All will be stop-gap measures, because those are probably the only kind we can conjure up.

I suspect our survivors a thousand years hence (if there are any) will be asking similar questions. The only real mystery is this: Will they be asking from inside spaceships or inside caves?

edit: added smiley to make myself sound slightly less obnoxious. It may not work.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 04:53:38 PM by ParkingPlaces »

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

I believe after reading the comments posted so far, that it would take much thought and planning to even try such a project.

However, if we did start a small community as an experiment and see how it would go, maybe this would be a small step in the micro sphere of things. It definitely would have to be an evolving work in progress to even have a chance at success.

"But no matter how well we learn to deal with problems, there will always be this: between governments and crime lords and unethical businessmen and terrorists, there are myriad places where devious powers can fill vacuums, and any effort to re-create any society that includes artificial shortages (of money, food, opportunity, power sources, water etc.) will immediately be filled by bad guys, very illegally. It will not be good."

This is definitely a problem that just seems to be part of being human and poses a tough obstacle for sure.

The sad part of all of this, is the question what does the human race really want for the future? Do we just keep doing business as usual and hope everything will somehow workout in the end. But if we take this route it might just be to late at that time to realize we really needed to do something about our situation long before things became so bad. It all seems like a huge mountain of problems at times and no easy solutions! Reminds me of that old TV series the Martian Chronicles where humankind branched out to establish a colony on Mars and brought the same problems with them there, not to mention how the Martians themselves reacted to us and our ways.

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I am not asking what is truth, even though I seek it, I will know when truth is in front of me, when it is internally consistent, coherent with knowledge, congruent with like experience, useful for helping me organize my thinking, this is all I can ask in seeking the truth.

Experimental communities have been tried repeatedly, but don't tend to do all that well in the long term. They can work very well in isolation, but there comes a time when they meet up with the outside world. Either they must stay isolated, or they see their values diluted by contact with the larger group on the outside.

But I have an idea: What if such a community was done as a network of nodes dispersed worldwide, in communication with one another and enacting their social experiments in full view of the larger society? In other words, model the changes we want to see in situ. If we're doing it right, it'll be an attractive way of doing things and more people will sign on.

"What if such a community was done as a network of nodes dispersed worldwide, in communication with one another and enacting their social experiments in full view of the larger society? In other words, model the changes we want to see in situ. If we're doing it right, it'll be an attractive way of doing things and more people will sign on."

I agree.

I just hope that humanity starts acting on these ideas because, quite frankly, if we do not, I am quite worried that society cannot last into the future with the way we currently are looking at things.

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I am not asking what is truth, even though I seek it, I will know when truth is in front of me, when it is internally consistent, coherent with knowledge, congruent with like experience, useful for helping me organize my thinking, this is all I can ask in seeking the truth.

I wonder if the speed of technological change, and the opportunity for wealth created from it, is the biggest impediment to this kind of experiment. "Nature abhors a vacuum" is appropriate here - humans will intervene with stop-gap solutions, and human nature will accept such short term solutions, as we lean toward the immediate in the first place. These "solutions" may prove to be as harmful as the circumstances they are intended to fix.

In the interest of honesty: These opinions are colored through the lens of Bloody Mary's (we've opted for a "Sunday Bloody Sunday" day) and may be refuted by completely sober people with alacrity. I'm ready for spring break.

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

The more I think about the Venus project, I realized one of the greatest places we could use as an example of this, would be to completely demolish Detroit and start fresh with this project. Sort of Phoenix rises from the ashes.

The details, ramifications etc. would be huge, but a perfect place to start a project like this. Sure would make the world notice as Detroit was voted the most miserable city in America lately.

Heaven on Earth sure would be nice. Call me a dreamer but it is a pleasant dream for me.

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I am not asking what is truth, even though I seek it, I will know when truth is in front of me, when it is internally consistent, coherent with knowledge, congruent with like experience, useful for helping me organize my thinking, this is all I can ask in seeking the truth.

You now have 30 days to get 100,000 signatures in order for your petition to be reviewed by the White House. Until your petition has 150 signatures, it will only be available from the following URL and will not be publicly viewable on the Open Petitions section of We the People:

There are lots of dangerous, high-stress, or otherwise unpleasant or difficult jobs that can't be automated with current technology, and wouldn't be done by people seeking an outlet for their creativity. E.g., hotel housekeeper, server in a restaurant, farm labor, air traffic controller.

All these jobs can be done by machines.

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Even roles that people might be motivated to do without compensation out of personal passion for the value of the work (say, neurosurgeon) would face "intermittency" problems when the neurosurgeon feels more like spending a day at the beach, and there is no "servitude" ("job," "money") that commits them to a regular work schedule.

I suppose medical technology will advance so we won't need so many neurosurgeons. Additionally, more people, having fulfilled their basic needs, will have time to study medicine - just because they want to help others, not because profits.

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What if there are more people showing up at the "claim domes" requesting dental work than there are available appointment openings with the people who want to be dentists?

Like with neurosurgeons above. There will be also fast transport so it will be easier to go to another cisty or bring more dentists.

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His system also seems to completely ignore the existence of people who would want to cheat in order to achieve power and status.

He doesn't ignore them. He states that greed for power and status comes from culture and environment based on scarcity. With proper education and abundance of resources there won't be need for these feelings. People will concentrate on scientific challenges, art etc.

I agree its idealistic and probably we won't live long enough to see it but I personally would love to live in his world.

Here is newly released, almost hour long material:

P.S: Kevin, I'm honored to have an opportunity to talk to you. I've read all "Kcrady - old school" thread an you are my personal hero

I think it would be a great society but unfortunately it will have to wait until we colonize a planet. There is no way to institute such a system on the Earth. Would gangs, drug cartels, militant Islamists, the military, big corporations, self-generating governments, welfare cheats, etc want such a society. Absolutely not. And it isn't going to change either.

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People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe. Max Bazenman, Harvard University

But I have an idea: What if such a community was done as a network of nodes dispersed worldwide, in communication with one another and enacting their social experiments in full view of the larger society? In other words, model the changes we want to see in situ. If we're doing it right, it'll be an attractive way of doing things and more people will sign on.

Here's an idea that's been kicking around in my head for awhile: "Theme communities." A "theme community" is similar to a theme park, except that it's primarily for the people who live there. Tourism is a major industry (like it is in, say, Venice), but like Venice, the primary purpose is as a place for people to live, have culture, etc.. So, you could have a Steampunk community, where the buildings are all designed in a retro-futuristic Victorian style, the shops sell steampunk clothes, art, etc., there are plenty of Maker spaces for the steampunks to go to build their goggles and gadgets, there's a mass transit system with cable cars, aerial ropeways, elevated rail/monorails (designed to be steampunk gorgeous instead of modern-utilitarian-bland, of course) with a line that goes out to the interface with the world of superhighways and strip malls. People "buying in" to live or own a shop there might sign an agreement that would include dressing steampunk while within the Community, and maintaining their house/shop in a steampunk theme (kinda like an HOA agreement). The Community would be set up as an economic democracy so that it would not enter the failure modes of a company town.

Other themes could be things like Lord of the Rings (The Shire, Rivendell), "City of the Future" (Venus Project, a town built under a transparent geodesic dome, etc.), Eco City, "New Paris," "New Venice," and so on. Not all "Theme Communities" would need to have a "dress code" to keep up the theme. But maybe, in an urban environment built for people instead of giant mechanical insects with wheels, with architecture that's worth looking at and more free time, people would rediscover aesthetics and style anyway. These cities would have some things in common: narrow streets designed for people rather than cars, buildings side by side and up against the street, real parks, gardens, courtyards, etc. (places that people actually go to) but no "Green Space" that's only good for driving past in a car. Like this. Renewable energy sources, super-insulation, passive solar city design, and other ecological innovations would be built in as much as possible.

Further reading/viewing: The Traditional City/Heroic Materialism Series Archive (start at the bottom). The guy writes from an annoyingly dude-o-centric perspective sometimes, but the articles and especially the pictures show how excellent city and town design don't require fancy high-tech anything, or a single drop of oil. We've known how to do it since Catal Huyuk--with the exception of good plumbing, electricity, and train systems, which we now thankfully know how to build. Modern "Traditional City" design would take us a long way toward sustainability and less need for work/money (no auto-related expenses, much lower energy use, less "stuff" and clutter, etc.) even without high-tech Automated Everything. Of course, we can 3-D print the buildings if we really want to.

Since the "theme communities" could start out operating under the protective camouflage of a corporate structure, they probably wouldn't attract the opposition that a Venus Project style automated hippie commune would. Hopefully.

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"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

Where is this type of thinking closest to fruition - the US? Europe? Japan? I could see an area in FLA beside Disney world try the Venus setup. Would Canada have a spot? Canadian tourism? European Disneyland? Any place in France? Germany? What would be the top steampunk site in the world? The local government, while mainly supporting tourism, would have to be very far advanced in thinking. For instance - would Great Britain have any possible sites with that mix of government thinking and tourism. Like some of the US (my wife and I would choose the states that are listed on beverage bottles as paying deposits, their residents seem to have a clue, but it probably shouldn't be a cold state to start), Great Britain would have plenty of the long range experimenters, but too many of the hater naysayers. Maryland beside DC would work, but the hater naysayers would go nuts. Would China try it? If we were to pick a single spot in the world with the best possible chance - where would that be?

Looks like Jacque Fresco considers the South American countries as the place he would suggest for this project, specifically Cuba.

Here is a link:

I personally like the Amazon near the Rain Forest as a good location which is in South America anyway. And, as a bonus so much attention is being placed on the destruction of the Rain Forest so combining the two projects of saving the Rain Forest and creating the Venus project here would be a synergistic endeavour.

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I am not asking what is truth, even though I seek it, I will know when truth is in front of me, when it is internally consistent, coherent with knowledge, congruent with like experience, useful for helping me organize my thinking, this is all I can ask in seeking the truth.