The Final Debate: If I Hear About Joe the Plumber One More Time...

This should forever be known as the Joe the Plumber Debate. First McCain was bringing him up all the time, then Obama did the same thing. What makes politicians think plumbing is the quintessentially American occupation? Why not address these sincere appeals to Marge the Human Resources Specialist?

Oh, the debate itself. I guess you could say it saw the most spirited exchanges, and maybe the most substantive. It followed the familiar pattern – McCain attacked, Obama counterpunched. The main differences this time were the Joe thing and the context. Obama’s ahead in the polls, McCain is behind. Obama clearly wasn't trying to break new ground, just vigorously defend his turf and continue to look and sound presidential. McCain needs to score points, and fast, so he’s following a kitchen-sink strategy.

My guess is that not a whole lot of minds were changed. I also assume that viewers will react pretty much the way they reacted to the first two debates, preferring Obama’s cool steadiness to McCain’s heated agitation. If you paid attention, though, you could hear the central differences between the two men’s philosophies. McCain, fundamentally, is a believer in old-school Republican policies. Obama, basically, is a New Dealer for the New Age. Even Joe the Plumber ought to be able to tell them apart.

I suspect Joe the Plumber was a Republican plant, and he will shortly step forward to profess to have been powerfully affected and swayed by this last debate---then loudly endorse John McCain. I want credit if I turn out to have been right.

I see "Joe the Plumber" being talked up all of a sudden. And, yeah, this reeks of the partisan "stooge" at a quack doctor's medicine show all right. Like Henry Kissenger in an earlier debate. What, nothing about Joe Six Pack?

McCain "plumbed the debths" to try and diminish the superior in every way Obama. He was "plunging" headlong into the same accusations that have already been disproven in all media, liberal and facist. He only succeeded in looking more like a festering pustule than ever.

ACORN (THE ASSOCIATION OF COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS FOR REFORM NOW) IS A LEFT-WING GROUP THAT TAKES IN 40 PERCENT OF ITS REVENUES FROM AMERICAN TAXPAYERS — you and me — and has leverage nearly four decades of government subsidies to fund affiliates that promote the welfare state and undermine capitalism and self-reliance.

BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA CUT HIS IDEOLOGICAL TEETH WORKING WITH ACORN AS A “COMMUNITY ORGANIZER” AND LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE. Naturally, ACORN’s political action committee has warmly endorsed his presidential candidacy. According to ACORN, Obama trained its Chicago members in leadership seminars; in turn, ACORN volunteers worked on his campaigns. ACORN head Maude Hurd gushes that Obama is the candidate who “best understands and can affect change on the issues ACORN cares about” — like ensuring their massive pipeline to your hard-earned money.

THE GROUP’S VANDALISM ON ELECTORAL INTEGRITY IS SYSTEMIC. ACORN HAS BEEN IMPLICATED IN VOTER FRAUD SCHEMES IN MISSOURI, OHIO AND 12 OTHER STATES. The Wall Street Journal noted: “In Ohio in 2004, a worker for one affiliate was given crack cocaine in exchange for fraudulent registrations that included underage voters, dead voters and pillars of the community named Mar Poppins,Dick Tracy and Jive Turkey.

BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, THE CANDIDATE OF HOPE AND CHANGE — ACORN’S SENATOR, IS FOR MORE OF THE SAME OLD, SAME OLD SUBSIDIZING OF FAR-LEFT POLITICS in the name of fighting for the poor while enriching ideological cronies. It’s the Chicago way.

Joe the Plumber makes $250,000 a year in income!!!! Where can I get a plumbing license. Poor poor guy, only make $250,000 a year. He definitely needs a tax break. How about them plumbers, only making $250,000, if only they could get a tax break America's economy would be fixed. Thank God for John McCain. Thank God that the future of America is in Plumbing!!! Let's start export plumbing to China. We can be the world's plumber. "Cleaning the toilets of the world" should be America's new motto.

I have seen the accounting/balance sheets of companies (employee's in excess of 500) and they do not show over 250 thousand in profits--I think "joe the plummer" is speaking of revenue--not taxable profits--I do not believe he is showing that kind of profit--he needs a new accountant!!!

For tonight's debate, I AM INCENSED!!! Autism??? What does Sarah Palin know about AUTISM, let alone raising a child with Down's Syndrome or any other special needs, when her new child is still an infant???

Sarah Palin a ROLE MODEL??? To WHOM? In WHAT WAY?? Spewing hate and ignorance??? WHAT KIND of role model is THAT, let alone for "women?" How insulting/disparaging/patronizing that McCain even thinks women NEED a role model???

Ignoring the mother's health in the abortion debate????

What rock has this guy climbed under??? Before this campaign, I had at least a little respect for him...

I respect McCain for clearly separating himself from George Bush. McCain really is a true "reformer", but Americans are too shallow to notice. They can't see beyond his age; and, they can't see-through Obama.

I think mccain didn't have nothing to say more important than to talk about that joe the plumer.
THE REPUBLICAN SEND THAT GUY (JOE THE PLUMER)TO OBAMA IN OHIO TO ASK HIM ABOUT THAT ISSUE,FOR MCCAIN TO BRING IT TO THE DEBATES.
THAT OLD MAN IS VERY MALICIOUS!!!

I am glad Senator McCaim brought it up. I am not earning much now. I do not want anybody else's money. I am proud to be working very hard and I know I will get there. And when I get there, I do not want anyone to take away my American dream. "Spread the wealth" is not American dream. It is socialist. and it discourage people from dreaming the American dream.

Joe The PLumber is a fraud. He doesn't like Obama, and he is on talkshows around the country on Wednesday saying all kinds of crap and misinformation about Obama

One piece of that misinformation is that Joe Joe is using the tax index provided by the Amer. Enterprise Institute. AEI uses conservative Republican figures - especially the bogus $42K tzx figure that Sarah palin has been claiming as accurate for three weeks.

I heard him say today that he had been in the military and that he was worried about people in the military who said that they would not be able to salute Obama. Fair enough but in all fairness, he is not an undecided voter

Obama probably won the debate, but not my vote. He is probably unequaled in his debating skills and could easily sell "freezers" to Eskismo's but I don't want another sleek willy in Washington we already have an over abundance of these elected officals who are not accountabe or responsible. The man in my judgment is simply not trustworthy for this high position.

I wonder if Joe the Plumber knows Joe Six Pack. Obama was cool, calm, centered and focused. McCain was a rambling and muttering! He tried his best to make Obama seem unpatriotic. Hey John.. we are tired of that old song!

I think Obama did it as to play off McCain. he was very quick thinker and whenever McCain thought he had dropped a bomb on him, Obama just kicked it right back to the smug little devious/ deviant face. had you noticed, McCain is taking winkin lessons from Palin. It's really unappealing habit to go squinching up your face all the time and winking every few seconds like a brainless barbie doll. ugh. I don't think Obama just did the same old hat, because he expanded a great deal into details and he can put across a fairly complex idea in simple terms very clearly, but McCain can't even say a simple thing in clear terms. So McCain gets the Elmer Fudd Award for the debate and Obama gets named Honorary Bugs Bunny for running about McCain in circles. Obama is really amazing. He's so totally unflappable. he's a bit like Virginia Wade-- McCain lobbed some long shots, but Bugs just coolly knocked them back. He's really remarkable person. I don''t think the US has seen such a leader, so articulate and in control since JFK and intensely likeable. McCain comes across as a sleazy shoe salesman in comparison. McCain uses the first person singular almost as it were the royal "we" and speaks of himself far too much. he has little or no sense of reality--5000rebate for health? he's got to be out of his head. But Obama shows genuine concern for the people of the US and the people come before the first person singular. the focus of interest and service of these two are polarized. Obama is very impressive.

Sarah Palin is an authority on Autism because she has a child with Down Syndrome? I think, John, you just put yourself into the category of those who would say, "All them reetards look the same to me!"

Try to know what you are talking about, when you go on national television!

The thing is, McCain doesn't even know the DIFFERENCE between autism and Down Syndrome. Just shows how out of touch he really is.

And Sarah Palin is the worst kind of mother EVER. She's in it for The Show. She drags her poor little special-needs infant around like he's nothing more than a sack of pototoes, just to say "Lookie what I done! I done had a special-needs infant. Vote for me!" I find the woman BEYOND vile.

I feel so sorry for her poor children. God help them.

I wanted Obama to attack her, but deep down I know he did the right thing by taking the high road. Let the press attack her. Heck, let me have a whack at her TOO!!

OMG, Joe Six-Pack now Joe the Plumber....do McCain/Palin think we are a bunch of bozos being swayed by anecdotal references to the working class..It's not about class warfare it's about fair taxation for those that can afford it! It's about providing health insurance to those that don't have it. It's about ending the financial black hole we have created by occupying Iraq. It is about creating jobs not enriching the rich..

Vote for Obama as the intelligent choice for the future of our country, not failed policies that will further drive us into bankruptcy!

Love your work, Gene! And hooray for highly-paid plumbers like Joe. I just wish I could find any plumber rich or poor when I need one.

Advice for Manolete: please switch to de-caf, stop using all caps, check the facts before you launch your tirades, and if Mr. Robinson's opinions upset you so much, you are free to avoid reading them.

There is a very big difference between voter registration fraud and actual voter fraud. The ACORN guys you love to hate reported the problem themselves. They paid people to register voters and those people signed up a lot of imaginary people. It is highly unlikely that Jive Turkey will show up to vote on November 4. Voter fraud, on the other hand, is when people try to prevent legally registered voters from voting. Republicans are famous for it.

As for the debate I thought that McCain seemed more nervous than the earlier debates and that Obama was crisper. Also, that Schieffer did a better job both with questions and with getting the candidates to respond to each other.

McCain it seemed to me scored some small (ethanol for example) points. But, his meat cleaver approach to budgetary issues and hiss anti-tax mantra given our troubled economy, seemed to match his Herbert Hoover-type collar (or so it appeared to me) that he wore.

As for Joe the Plumber I thought it was silly. It was the old Comet, not the New Super Comet that he needed to change the momentum. Where's Josephine the Plumber when you need her?

"So McCain equates life-saving organ transplants with vanity Botox treatments? What a mean-spirited jerk! I hope the SOB loses in a landslide."

I hope he needs an organ transplant. But, wait: he's in Congress, so he has the gold-plated health care plan. And his wife makes multiple millions per year selling beer. Wonder if she pays for her botox treatments on her husband's Congressional insurance policy?

Well, if we are going to use McCain's criteria, "Joe the plumber," a rich man - makes $5million or more per year. No wonder McCain uses him as a comparison - he's a chrony. Now if we use Obama's definition of rich, Joe might just make $250,000 a year (and I don't know too many plumbers - well, I don't know ANY plumbers who make that much), and he surely wouldn't be having that hard of a time buying into the business - or for that matter, leaving the company and starting his own business. So I doubt that Joe the plumber IS rich, or that McCain is his "friend." As for ACORN, John McCain has much more solid ties to ACORN than Barack Obama - a matter of public record, and photos available of McCain attending a 2006 ACORN seminar. Talk about the kettle calling the pot black. As for this outrage that McCain showed about Rep Lewis' statement - just illustrates the fact that McCain is not only "older than dirt," - he's "dumber that dirt." If you read the text of Lewis' statement, and interpret it in context, Lewis was not comparing McCain to George Wallace, but rather was comparing the potential for violence today to that reached as a result of the politics of a prior time. I think it is a very apt comparison. When you have people at public rallies shouting threats of "kill him" aimed at a member of the US government, obviously these people have been incited to riot and whomever stirred that up is guilty of sedition. Add to that the fact that Palin's husband was a registered member of a secessionist party that advocates violence against the US, and that Caribou Barbie (Sarah Palin) obviously supported that political party, methinks there is a huge potential that the the fires of violence will be stoked by the McPalin campaign. Let's call a spade a spade - McCain and Palin are by far the most dangerous candidates to appear on the US political stage since Mr. Duke of the KKK ran for public office.

After hearing Obama in this debate and relating to people on the campaign trail this week, I am convinced to the point of certainity of this. Franklin Delano Roosevelt offered America the 'New Deal' as a way out of the Depression. Barack Obama offers America a 'Raw Deal' into a certain Depression.

get over it. ACORN isn't implicated in anything, let alone the end of democracy (as McCain ridiculously exaggerated). They brought to the attention (as if it wasn't obvious) that some of their temp employees, who get paid by the registration form, were filling them out for nonexistent people. That's a fraud against ACORN, not voting. Mickey Mouse and the Dallas Cowboys are not going to show up in Ohio to vote. The dishonest employees were not registering real people who aren't eligible to vote. fake people are so much easier. fake people don't vote. end of story, no voting fraud, no threat to democracy. nothing. it's over

If McCain is so against George W Bush, why did he not himself run against Bush/Cheney in 2004? Who do you want to see on your TV sets the next four years? It scares the hell out of me that if McCain is elected that we could one day see a President Palin.

Mr. Obama talks details. I may not agree with everything he says, but he is passionate about wanting to help this country.

Obama is honest when he says it will take 10 years to stop oil dependency - it will NOT happen tomorrow no matter how many oil wells we open up this week!

Obama is on the money when he says Americans have to take some responsibility for energy use and education, including parents becoming more involved with their child's school work, and talking to youth about sex to prevent teen pregnancies in the first place.

Mr. McCain, on the other hand, just smirks, rolls eyes, sighs loudly, and blabs about how silly Mr. Obama's plans are. The comment about a mother's life not necessarily being important was the killer for me. The man has no respect for women, or different cultures for that matter. He really IS the hateful person we've been seeing in the recent rallies. Oh, by the way Mr. McCain. . .Sarah Palin's son has Down's Syndrome, not Autism.

For me to even consider buying a plumbing business, it needs to have sales of more that 3 million a year. That trickles down to income, in a perfect world, of about $150,000.00. Thats after I do all the sales, order all the parts, make my customers happy, make my employees happy, pay the rent, utilities, health care, trucks, gas, unemployment, etc.
Joe, keep working 10-12 hours a day, you will make more money, and have less headaches. Remember, if you buy the place, there won't be anyone to work there. What a scam, your employer selling you your job.

As with several other posters, I was EXTREMELY offended by the reference that Sarah Palin was like me and would fight for my son with autism. Sarah Palin is NOTHING like me. I stay home with my children, and my days and nights are spent worrying about his future, and how he will cope everyday not furthering my political career. I cannot get a job outside the home as I work full time with him! I don't keep him out past 10:00pm parading him around as she does with her toddler...rather I spend my days volunteering in his classroom, and re-working his IEP, negotiating with his teachers and teaching him social lessons one on one. I feel for her family and the struggles I know they will inevitably face, but I don't think for one minute we are anything alike and cetainly the way she raises her children is not what I strive for. Most importantly because I don't share her religious convictions, she IS NOT in it for me and she has made that clear. I was digusted at McCain lumping special needs into one category to pander for votes! It was offensive beyond belief!

It bothers me when McCain congratulates people for being "rich", as he did tonight with good ol' Joe the Plumber. McCain has always been a privileged man, who has been rich for a long time. But he didn't exactly "earn" his way to being rich. So all that snarly, gnarly attitude doesn't really fit.

If McCain had been a scrappy, hard-working, long-suffering guy without family connections, without family wealth, with less privilege of birth (maybe like this Joe the Plumber) -- then I'd understand that defensive sort of attitude. He'd be more effective if he kept his personal animosity, his personal emotion out of it.

We don't care about privileged McCain's hurt feelings, especially when he has had a pretty lucky life. (He did come home from Vietnam; I know lots of men who didn't.)

I keep getting the feeling from him that he's angry and resentful almost as if he feels he just wants us to see (somehow) that he DESERVES this promotion instead of having to prove himself.

Does the fact that both mccain and obama sound like high school morons mean anything? think of it, these guys want to run the most powerful country and largest economy in the world, and they can't get past 9th grade pettiness...ssj,

I was watching the undecideds lines on CNN and Joe the Plumber seemed pretty much a non-starter for both candidates. I know he was for me. Who is this man? Why are these people talking about him? Joe the Plumber became a gimmick.

McCain/Palin is a disaster for the GOP. I am forced to vote for Obama.

McCain has embarrassed himself and GOP in this election. He proven that he is angry and irrational as a result he is no better than W.

It pains me to say this because I have been a republican all of my life. From what I've read and seen Berry has won this debate and has run an even handed and honorable campaign. Sadly I can't say the same for 'my' candidate, and I wish it were not so.

I was watching the undecideds lines on CNN and Joe the Plumber seemed pretty much a non-starter for both candidates. I know he was for me. Who is this man? Why are these people talking about him? Joe the Plumber became a gimmick.
Posted by: jennyshep2001 | October 15, 2008 11:41 PM
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Joe the Plumber is "IGNORANT DUMB AMERICAN MALE" same as "JOE SIX PACK"! Got it now Joe "MISSING A CAN"!

mom25, bless you and your kids. I have a special needs daughter who is 22 now, whose special needs didn't reveal themselves until she was 13. I have to work, so my life is about trying to take care of her and meet my job responsibilities. We have 4 other almost-grown kids now who also have their own special needs -- every kid does. But trying to take care of my neediest daughter, meet our financial requirements, take care of the other kids, and still have a marriage that is the bedrock for all the rest of it is a huge challenge. I don't have time to spew hate or run for vice president. Obviously you don't either.

But, really, there's no question in my mind that Obama "gets it" about our kinds of challenges. Despite this horrible, egregious ignorant lapse, McCain probably means to, but just doesn't have the equipment.

ACORN seems to be the right-wing evil-doer of the week. Registering low-income voters who have no reason whatsoever to vote for any Republican who has run for president in the last 28 years apparently doesn't win ACORN any friends on the right. Darn democracy.

Apparently Joe the Plumber will incorporate his business as a part Sub-S for tax purposes. Compensation for employees, including medical benefits, 401(K), etc. are expenses that are subtracted dollar for dollar from revenue for tax computation. Joe is going to take a bottom-line profit distribution, basically a cash dividend, that will raise his compensation above $250,000/year. McCain implies that Joe pays taxes on top line revenue and won't hire as many people as a result. This doesn't make a lot of sense.

You know how much your fine will be under Obama's health care plan, Joe? ZERO. You know how much I care if you can buy your new plumbing business, Joe? ZERO. I just got fleeced for $1300 to fix a leak in a shower. And that did not involve any drywall type of expenses... that was purely a half-day plumbing cost. It would have been cheaper to have a trial lawyer or brain surgeon fix it. I think their hourly is less. So if you have the money in this horrible economy to start your business, more power to you. But you don't sound like the "Average Joe" to me. You sound like a guy doing pretty well, dude. Right now, you don't have my sympathy.

I would like for one McCain supporter to tell me some actions that McCain plans to take to make anything better for those that are not rich--He certainly has not told me.
Posted by: wooka | October 15, 2008 11:46 PM
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If you listened,,it was said , and said, over, and over again,,,"JOE PLUMBER WILL DO EXTREEMLY WELL" if I'm elected!

As a mother of a child with Cerebral Palsy I have done alot of research about Autism, Down Syndrome, Chromosone Deletions and many other disabilitating diseases. I also work long hours and run a business of my own. Do not ever question all the things a mother will research when you know that you will have to deal with this for the rest of your life. Remember prior to her child being born Sarah Palin had plenty of time to start researching and when you start researching you will learn alot about Autism, one of the fastest growing diagnosis in America. If a parent does not educate herself no one will educate you so I know that in the field of Special Needs she can and will do a great job.

Do not judge McCain for being wise. She is a good choice for America because she will focus on America while the rest of the Whitehouse is on War. Even Obama will be going to war in Pakistan and Afganistan ect.. Ofcourse Israel brace yourself if Obama wins because he will always say I did not do that, I did not know that and I did not say that blah, blah blah. Definately not a man of his word.

I'll tell you a story about Tom the Septic System Man, my father, second-generation Slovak who grew up on a dairy farm in Western Massachusetts, who back in 1980 voted for Reagan, and my mom, a teacher of liberal Irish background, was not happy. Well, Dad's 83 now and couldn't care less about this 2008 election (Mom's gone), but the average working-class man or woman today is in a different world than the one Reagan came riding into back in 1980. The old anti-government shtick is losing force for the GOP because the Republicans have been running the government for eight long years. This is the absurdity of McCain's "reform" nonsense. Deregulation was his and Phil Gramm's shining baby, and look where it got us. Ditto the war (where are those WMD, anyway?). So the Reagan Democrats are an historical artifact, now. Bush had his Democrats, and that just proves that stupidity is nonpartisan. (I still am amazed that there were enough people stupid enough to vote for Bush in 2004. That says more about them than it does about John Kerry.) So plumbers and carpenters and such are going to look around and see the decline we're in and be less apt to cast their lot with the old wedges of race and taxes; McCain's trying to make lemonade with the worn-out wedge and smear issues he's left with, and that's as painful to watch as a plumber crouching under your kitchen sink.

I am not really "Joe the plumber", but I am a registered Democrat and here are my thoughts on some of the issues that came up as a result of his question to Obama.

"Joe the plumber" is a real, hard working, United States citizen who should not have to pay higher taxes solely for the purpose of giving his money to those who are "behind" him (as stated by Obama). If we want to increase the number of jobs in America (which, by the way, Obama has not put forth any real ideas that would ensure low unemployment rate), we cannot increase the taxes for people like "Joe the plumber" who are interested in purchasing or starting their own businesses. The way to stifle business is to increase taxes for the 5% of the population that is being targeted by Obama (who, by the way, pay most of the taxes that are now collected in America).

Additionally, it is arbitrary to decide that individuals/households making $200k/$250k or more should bear the higher tax burdens. Many of those who have these income also carry a large amount of debt. For example, if a student attends 4-8 years of college to obtain an undergraduate and then a professional degree, it is not unusual for that student to have in excess of $100k in student loans. None of this is taken into account under Obama's policy. Thus, just because a person's salary is at a certain level, the amount of net income that is available to that person after taxes and bills certainly does not make the person "rich."

There are just too many issues with Obama's tax policy to detail in this posting.

While America has, at certain times, employed certain socialist policies in an effort to strengthen its economy, the policies being pushed by Obama are extremely socialist, and very far left on the political spectrum. Someone with this type of an agenda will never be able to get things done in Washington, especially if the make-up of Congress remains largely the same. For these (and many other reasons), I do not believe that Obama is the best choice for President.

My favorite character was the one that Jackie Gleason invented: Joe the Bartender.
Joe the Plumber invoked pity about the "presidential candidate" that invoked his name ad infinitum, like it would actually win him the election. SAD!

Micelevalladares
With all do respect, you actually think a woman who attended 5 colleges, none with any academic requirements for admission, who has a journalism degree, and had never been out of the country until last year (although she can see Russia), is qualified to "focus on America" while John McCain is focusing on war? Yikes, I whole heartedly disagree! And if she investigated as you say she probably did, she might have been able to mention one medical journal, newspaper, or online source when questioned. Blind faith is a scarry thing!

JOSEPHINE the Plumber is plenty ticked off at having been forgotten, let me tell ya!

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If JOSEPHINE the Plumber is smart, instead of getting into her cocoon by feeling plenty ticked off for being forgotten, she would get busy and devise ways to hook up with Joe the Plumber before any other "Matilda the Plumber" catches the prize; for Joe the Plumber is soon gonna be a millionaire through TV ad appearances for some plumbing company!

"Joe the Plumber" happens to be the brightest of all American people! Marge doesn't compare! He is the icon the middle class hard working who fight in the trenches of the so called "free market economy." Without his small business prowess and entrepenuership you high class rich brats wouldn't have a "POT TO PEE IN!"

It seems that McCain had decided earlier that "Joe the Plumber" was his ticket to appealing to the middle class and he was not going to hammer it home, even if it had nothing to do with the question he was asked. Well, it made him look like someone who's bogged down in unimportant, trival matters. Plus, he seemed not to be listening. Seconds after Obama would make a clear, easily understood statement, McCain would say Obama believed otherwise. I just heard Obama say what he believed, why didn't John?

I'm sitting here tonight trying to decide which of my employer's health plan options is my best choice and trying to interpret the fine print. This is with plans that have already been vetted for me by human resources, who understands legalese.
Does McPalin's plan to send me out to negotiate my own health coverage include an interpreter?

Also, I was extremely uncomfortable with McCain's disparagement of women over whether the "health" of women matters (little quote marks were his!). This was in regard to what he termed "pro-abortion" side. There is no "pro-abortion" side. There is a side that respects women enough to allow us the choice over reproduction. I love it that conservatives have to allow guns for all (instruments of death) and get hysterical over government interfering, but when it comes to the most private issue in a woman's life, government is welcome to barge in adn tell her what she MUST do. How insulting to women. It was either a clear slip-up (which he'll explain later) or it revealed something about his general lack of respect for women.

thanks, cturtle1. you're exactly right. I've never been able to figure out the clear contradiction between the GOP's "less govt" stance vs their intrusion into my and my daughters/ very most personal business.

I'm female and unable to have children. I abhor partial birth abortion. But McCain didn't score any points with me by trying those smoke and mirror tactics on Obama's record. Obama had legitimate concerns about the bills in question and voted accordingly. Shameful, McCain, trying to distort the truth like that.

As long as pro-lifers continue to use every single piece of abortion legislation to try to open the door to a Roe v. Wade reversal, (instead of sitting down and reaching a compromise on vital exceptions that should be included in these bills) there will continue to be an impasse on parial birth abortion.

McCain is old-fashioned in his debate style. He wants to do the Bill Clinton thing of bringing up "Joe the Plumber" or his "vets" in the audience with their hats. Cue the violins, right? But he's not particularly good at that. For every heart-strings moment, there are two irrascible, crusty ones. He's anything but subtle with an attack, and then he sits back in a self-satisfied way, with a silly grin on his face.

Obama scored a lot of cool, understated jabs. One was when he said he'd be willing to pay more taxes himself after McCain (Mr. Rich) stated outright that he didn't want to pay taxes himself. McCain = Country First???

McCain is past his prime, even if Joe the Plumber is just hitting his stride.

Joe the plumber only made McCain look dumber. He ran Joe down our throats so far, I'm choking on the poor guys shoelaces. What an obvious attempt to use a gimmick. Does McCain think we're all as dumb as his running mate?

The $280K figure that Joe the Plumber throws out is actually what it would cost for him to buy the plumbing business. So the yearly earnings of that business is probably much less, and definitely much less than $250K. (Afterall, who would sell a business making more than $250K/year for only $280K?)

So it looks like Joe the Plumber would benefit from the small business incentives under Obama's tax plan.

I do wish Obama had explained better about ACORN, if only because I think the unanswered questions might sway some to think he's hiding something. I don't think he is, but others might. Hope that doesn't come back to bite him.

He missed an opportunity to debunk the Obama=ACORN=voter fraud spin McCain is aiming for. He should have pointed at McCain's ties to the group. Would have made for some dandy viewing, watching McCrusty try to sidestep his own mud coming back at him.

I noticed someone spoke of MSNBC, to hear Olbermann, Mathews and Maddow you would think conservatives have no redeeming value, none. I have yet to hear one positive statement from any one of them. I have tuned in just to see how pathetic their journalism really is. You people love to throw labels around like Andrea Mitchell's, (redneck southerners ) your right in there with Keith, Chris, Rachael and their other planted guests; they know how to bring us together. Since you don't want Gov. Palin a heart beat away from C & C what are you going to do about the JR. Senator from Illinois who if elected will be the heartbeat and the least qualified candidate in history? Palin - Governor - 2 years, Mayor 2 Years, (More executive experence) and a true humanitarian not the evil one some of the posters on this site have called her, running for Vice President - Obama Senator, 2 years (spent18months of it running for President), Community organizer and State Senator running for President. He also made a big world tour to Europe with press in tow for a big impressive show to shore up his foreign relations credentials. That is what we really need, all our socialist friends from France and Germany to be helping us elect our next president. Oh yes and we do need to defer most every problem to United Nations since they have such an unblemished track record. We can aso let Hugo Chavez, Joe Smith, he could pass for a real person and anyone else alive or dead register to vote in any precinct but I hear the Dallas Cowboys won't show. Last on the list we need to put our heads in the sand and treat terrorism as a police action. This is not change we can live with. What a joke, she is running for VP and he is running for President, what is wrong with this picture? Some of the posters need to get a life join the military and they may see what real love of country is all about. It is about our all volunteer force, the very best of America, self effacing Americans giving of themselves for the common good and not personal gain. Come to think of it most couldn't take the pressure.

The following is the advanced copy of the script for a TV commercial which will appear soon on national TV. (I obtained it from a friend of mine who works for an ad company.)

............................................

Hi, I'm Joe The Plumber of instant international fame. You'll recall that both Senators McCain and Obama had mentioned my name frequently during their last presidential debate on October 15. In fact at one point Sen. McCain had addressed me directly through the TV camera lens.

Well, here I'm to sell you LIQUID-PLUMR.

LIQUID-PLUMR is the best thing available in the market for quickly unclogging clogged kitchen or bathroom sinks in your home...just the way all my financial problems disappeared down the drain the instant Senators McCain and Obama mentioned my name during the debate and I then landed into this TV commercial job. Now I'm a millionaire!

Seabee, I don't think any of us wish to disrespect the men and women who volunteer to serve. My dad is a vet, a former Marine who served in the same war as McCain.

I think what some of us are objecting to is the extreme lack of respect that has been shown to those of us with intelligence, especially with regards to McCain's pick of Palin. Her husband was part of a movement that doesn't want Alaska to be part of the same country that she wants to be second in command of?

The issue I have with Palin is that she doesn't seem to grasp the issues. Unless the *crickets* blank stares and inadequate responses to questions about issues are all an act? Oh, but look, she winked at me! Am I supposed to swoon now?

Her only talking points are oil and energy and why we should all hate and fear Obama. But she didn't even know if Congress restricts oil exports or not? And that pipeline? Since she shoved the companies that control the drilling aside in that deal, I don't think they'll be thanking her by pumping their product through it. They'll build their own pipes through Canada first. So what's left for me to hang my hat or my hopes on? Hating Obama?

Didn't we just have someone in office for eight years who was qualified because he was once the governor of an oil producing state?

As to having people in other countries voice their opinion and support for Obama, I think anyone watching the reports from around the globe as markets collapse WORLDWIDE under the burden of our economic mess, I think it is myopic at best to believe that we are only the U.S. and nothing more. We are also part of a global community and face challenges like economics, war, and human rights not just as Americans, but as members of that larger community. I don't think we have to like all the members of that community any more than we have to like all the people in our own country or even in our own families. But we do have to be respectful of each other and weigh each others opinions thoughtfully, even if we choose to disagree. Having people around the globe express respect or praise for Obama doesn't disqualify him in my eyes.

No personal offense to you, sir; I thank you for your service to our country. I just disagree with your views.

I believe I did address some of your concerns. Like how Obama is viewed in other countries and how that might impact his ability to lead ours. Like your own comparisons of Obama's record versus Palin's.

As to ACORN and your implication that Obama is somehow involved with fraud, the acts of some ill-advised, poorly paid temporary workers filling out registration cards fraudulently so they can make more money is not Obama committing fraud or trying to tear down democracy. See posts from Lizzabizza and JoeT1 earlier to hear it more eloquently. Or you could just Google McCain acorn to see that once upon a time, your man didn't despise them so much.

I did not respond to your rant about the media because it is not relevant. I did respond to your concerns about all of us posters who think Palin is awful.

As to experience, that seems to be your only other point. So let me say that, had our country's founders relied solely on the guys with experience, we'd be flying England's flag.

By the way, I do believe that Sarah Palin's record and experience is extremely relevant with regards to who our next president should be. The choice of Palin as a running mate speaks directly to McCain's judgment.

Another concern about McCain's judgment is how he continues to use campaign propaganda that has been proven false. As though we're all too stupid to know it's false. As if saying it over and over will make it so.

This alone has made me lose respect for a man I once considered honorable. While it doesn't diminish my gratitude for his past service to country, it does make me question his current ethics and judgment.

Good gawd..now they got Joe the plumber on tv today. And from the way he sounds he doesnt like government period. Oh but he does think Iraq is ok. Here is a man that doesnt want to pay taxes above 250,000, but doesnt mind paying billions a month for the Iraq war...and in his own words even tho there was no WMDs. Ok Joe the Plumber you are just an ordinary Joe alright.

Can anyone tell me how its fair to tax a small biz owner that is an "S Corp" or LLC whos personal income tax is based on what the company makes when that company does over 250,000 in sales but has 220,000 in expenses (30 to 35% of those expenses being various taxes) leaving that person with an income of 30,00. Just because the company GROSSED 250,000 does NOT mean they made a net profit of 250,000, yet they will be taxed like they are rich. Where is the benefit to driving a struggling company like that out of business.

And could anyone explain how waiving capital gains tax on a small business that does not pay capital gains in the first place is such a great thing.

I have listened to both sides unbiased and objectively and dont know which way to go. Both sides seem to have negative and positive points but this one is very important to me personally and I think to the economy as a whole and when this scenario was brought up last nightg and was put to Sen Obama he danced around the core of it quite gracefully and effectively avoided a straight forward answer. If this is in fact the case it will smite the chances of success for the aspiring small biz owner and the broken pieces will gravitate into many conglomorates that can already afford to be in business absorbing them all. How would the working middle class like that many less options and opportunities?

ckoch407
I believe that the redistribution of wealth has been the focus of American politics for most of the history of this country - redistribution upward (Capitalism)vs redistribution downward (Socialism. An effective and functional political system will try to balance these two contradictory ideals. If the lower and middle classes do not have the income to buy, there is no need to expand manufacture, and capital has no place to go to make money. This creates excessive pressure on the financial system that leads to the creation of artificial vehicles such as hedge funds, etc. If the money moves downward, we are faced with excessive demand for goods and services resulting in inflation. The idealogues on both sides of the political spectrum try to force us to pick one extreme or the other. Time to try the middle if we hope to survive as a major player in the world arena.

Interesting take on things. I know the basic concepts of each extreme but never viewed it like that before. So based on that view how do you balance the system and which of these two candidates will be most beneficial to America?

Most of the little acorns can vote absentee, and we don't have to show up so that may slide votes in there from all over the country, well I guess just battle ground states. Who knows with nobody watching the store even the Dallas Cowboys may slide through? As one individual said "nothing to worry about, things are on the up and up". Send them more money BO. It is not McCain wishes no taxes for those over $250,000 just no additional taxes, more spinning of the truth. What is WMD, could be somthing as simple as a commercial airline.

According to Lucas County, Ohio court records, Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher (aka Joe the plumber) has a state income tax lien of $1,182.98.

So...not only does he not have the money to buy into this pipedream of his or pay the extra 3%, he doesn't want to have the taxes he has now. Definitely a relative a Keating. Take, take, take and give nothing back.

Joe the plumber is not a plant. Joe the plumber is an average American trying to get ahead and move forward with the American Dream. I agree with Joe, why should anyone get TAXED more for being successful? I just started a business, my goal? To make millions. I don't want to be penalized for that.

I am a firm believer in the flat tax. Everyone, every corporation, etc. ALL pay the same percentage. That is the ONLY fair method to taxation. Picking who and when you want to tax, is not only unfair, but it's also Un-American. As a result I am voting for:

Joe The Plumber is a fraud. He is not a licensed or bonded plumber, nor is his employer. He does not make $250,000 a year. He would get a tax cut under Obama. He is not about to buy this "shade tree" outfit he works for. He is a registered Republican. He is formerly registered with a racist political group in Ohio.

I'd like to make a point of clarification regarding your original posting, part of which I am quoting below:

--- quote ---
Can anyone tell me how its fair to tax a small biz owner that is an "S Corp" or LLC whos personal income tax is based on what the company makes when that company does over 250,000 in sales but has 220,000 in expenses (30 to 35% of those expenses being various taxes) leaving that person with an income of 30,000. Just because the company GROSSED 250,000 does NOT mean they made a net profit of 250,000, yet they will be taxed like they are rich. Where is the benefit to driving a struggling company like that out of business.
--- quote ---

The basis for income taxation of an S Corp's owner(s) is the distributed Net Income, in your example $30,000 - not $250,000. What is based on the gross sales of $250,000 is the Sales Tax. Here in Los Angeles, we pay 8.25% of gross sales receipts, which in reality is passed on to the consumer. In our case which is a software company, our customers pass it on to Uncle Sam as deductible operating expenses.

Maybe, just like Joe the Plumber, you do not need a new president but a new accountant.

Why is the Mainstream Media hiding all the negatives about Abama? It is true that Abama is outspending McCain 3 to 1 on advertising. Are all the journalists so un-American and greedy they would rather milk this ‘Cash Cow’ until it is too late than give all the facts to the voter and lose what little creditability they have left?