My Concerns with Coach Woodson. Are you Mike Woodson, or Mike D'Antoni?

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My Concerns with Coach Woodson. Are you Mike Woodson, or Mike D'Antoni?

I love the job coach has done but I have a few concerns.

1. Defense

Woodson is a defensive coach but we have seen much "Slipage" and no one knows why. Here are my observations-

There are only 3.5 true defensive oriented players on our squad: TC, Shump, Brewer, and Sheed (him being the .5)

Of those players only TC is a regular. Shump is just returning, Bewer's minutes have been reduced, and Sheed can't stay healthy. There is more concern when an injury occures with little to no contact that directly relates... see overuse injuries.

TC cannot hold down the D on his own and needs a valid perimeter defender and a formidable PF along side. STAT is our best hope at this and there are only 2 perimeter defenders... do the math.

2. Rotation

I hated the unwavering / stubborness of our former coach, and I see the same here. Case(s) in point-

Brewer was removed as a starter due to going into a slump ala so many under MDA. Instead of working with him, perhaps drawing him up some plays... he was held to the uber shooting 3 point standard that gassed so many seemingly including coach. Mistake.

Kidd started out as a 2, yet cannot guard his position. We are healthy... Kidd is a back-up. I thought coach valued Defense?

Smith was not allowed to be a starting 2 under no circumstances. (Thats both stubborn and demoralizing) Perhaps he could have helped with the scoring when Melo was cold?

I believed this all happened because coach had his heart set on a plan or vision being at least 1 perimeter defender on the floor. I guess coach figured remove Brewer insert Shump- Yet coach didn't remove Kidd thus playing a 3 guard alignment with Felton, Kidd, and Shump. This kept Melo at the 4 out of position (see MDA).

Instead of (one of) Brewer, Shump, or Smith rotating at the 2 we sacrifice size at the 4. That is a mistake. If coach noticed Shump was not fully back then, he had plenty of options including Kidd at the 2 but he soured on Brewer just like our former coach use to do. Its simple you could help re-develop a players confidence, or lose him forever.

Our 2 must get us points but that would be less important if we used a conventional lineup. That means players at their natural positions. Then we would learn that the 2nd scorng option is STAT (NOT off the bench).

I get what coach tried to do; have waves of offense coming at an opponent. In theory that was a good plan but not in practice. The (big) 3 positions SF, PF, and C are locked down. There should be no shuffling unless absolutely necessary, leaving 2 positions to decide.

Coach has envisioned Felton as our starting PG but hasn't allowed anyone to challenge him if only to give him an incentive to improve his game. (Former coach use to do this too)

Felton as much as a catalyst, is a defensive liability that we cannot make up for, thus as coach thought, there is a need to have at least one of Brewer or Shump on the floor with Felton at all times. But since he is promoting offense so much Shump nor Brewer fit the Bill offensively... but defensively? What is the priority?

4. Identity

I mentioned this before and I'll say it again... what is our identity? I thought coach wanted us to be a defensive team but then there is the 3 guard alignment I mentioned above (that leaves us undersized and lacking perimeter d) and the subsequent moving players out of position, leaving Stat on the bench, that affects our d. So what is it?

Honestly I see MDA all in coach now and I'm worried. The sacrificing of defense for offense. The reluctantance to change and try new things that perpetuate his philosophy (I thought was defense).

Felton cannot lock down any G.
Kidd cannot lock down any G.
Smith has improved but is offensive minded.
Novak may as well stay on one side of the court.

Yet these players get the most minutes! They do so because of offense just like our former coach... mistake.

And they have contributed to our league leading 3 pointers taken (and made).

Remember what I said about our former coach? About taking too many 3's and the false positives they perpetuate, not to mention the unintended consequences? Well it's here again and I expect a defensive coach to take heed.

But coach isn't doing this and I'm perplexed. Has he been conditioned?

So in conclusion it's time to scrap some things and get back to basics.

1- If Camby or Sheed cannot play NOW, make a move for some size, rebounding, and defense. Period.

2- If Felton cannot guard the 1, start grooming someone who can.

3- Rule # 1: I you can't guard YOUR MAN, we don't need you for 99% of the time.. have a seat Novak et al.

4- STOP switching on D. If you try to reinvent the wheel and you come up with something round that rolls... you are wasting everyones time. Stop! Find a man playing the same position and guard him. No more switching and parsing players off. Get the basics of man defense down FIRST, then worry about advanced techniques.

5- Understand the fundamental errors you keep making:
A) start and play your best players- this helps them gel, become familiar, forge an identity and gives them something to fall back on during times of adversity. Stop marginalizing players contributions.

B) at their natural positions- If I see my young Star Shump guarding and playing 3 for no good reason... I'm going to kill someone!

C) defense is the priority- stop worrying about scoring and Novak. We are a defensive team... cater to the defesive players and show the team that defense is the priority... act like it!

6- Felton, Kidd, and Melo @ the 4 = defensive liabilities. Remove Kidd, insert one of Brewer or Shump. Play Stat at the 4 with TC for help and work on the bench AFTER THE STARTERS ARE SET. Don't try to balance both lineups.

I'm with you on all of this Red. The only thing I feel makes sense right now is to keep Amare on the bench until Camby or Sheed are ready to play. Woodson has to have someone to sub TC at the 5. I have been done with Kidd in the starting lineup for a while now. When Kidd started for Felton, the team was stagnant and surprisingly lacked ball movement. Defensively they've looked lost and the effort we saw in December is long gone. The issue with the constant switching has to be addressed. Woodson always talks about tightening up the defense after games but it just keeps getting worse.

Hall of Famer PG-Jason Kidd has always been the player/coach facilitator on all his NBA teams sharing the ball with all his teammates throughout his 19 year career in the NBA. WTF! Jason Kidd only passes the ball to Carmelo Anthony .. this is not the lockerroom-discipline tripple-double Jason Kidd we have on our team.

Jason Kidd may be 39 years old, but Kidd is the best winning player on the Knicks...

I agree with bigapple. There are 2 big problems. Number one is a defense. Number two, we need someone else, other than Melo to score. We basicaly have one great player(scorer), and thats it. Tyson only can dunk the ball if he is in the right position and gets a perfect pass, but cant post up, or shoot from any distance at all. His D is way overrated(avarages only 1 block a game) and he doesnt play with effort every game. I dont think he deserves to be an all star.
Shump is not the same player yet after the injury.
Novak, cant defend, and now cant make a shot when defended well and thats exactly what opposing teams are doing.
JR, very inconsistent and on top of that, takes ill advised shots all the time, doesnt pass, not a team player.
Kidd, i dont understand why is he in the starting lineup? Can someone explain to our coach to limit his minutes please.
His shots are not falling, he is too slow to defend faster, younger guards, and for some reason he is not moving the ball like he used to.
I love Stat, but his defense is a huge liability, although his offense looks much better. I would trade him for a good rebounder, but to move his contract is impossible right now.
Its a coaches job to demand an effort every single game if we want to get home court adv. in the east. We cant play down to competition and lose to inferior teams. Defense is all about an effort and Woody needs to bench players who dont bring it.
Actually he called out Tyson for the lack of effort recently.

1. This is still Damnphonies' team per se. We are still running Damnphonies' offense which has fire power. But most of the roster is his old roster. Like when a college coach gets fired, the new coach has the old coaches players for THAT SYSTEM. Woody took over midstream...can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

2. The guys we brought in are OLD...And I mean ancient by NBA standards: Sheed, Kidd, Kurt Thomas, Cambyman....C'mon man...Of course J Kidd can't defend cats LITERALLY HALF HIS AGE. Feltip is undersized and Shump is trying to find his way back...He an d. Rose got hurt the same day and Rose aint played an NBA minute yet. Its amazing Shump is even on the floor and he really has to be the perimeter stopper.

3. Knicks INTERIOR defense has to improve...But I think it will when Sheed/Camby get back. Until then Tyson/STAT need to pick it up since we are to small/old to guard people out on the floor.

4. Work in progress....It aint even the All-star break so chillax....So many injuries which with this old team and Shump out we knew would be an issue...Woody had to shuffle the deck LB style to cover...I mean Copeland /White having to START????C'mon....Hard to GEL with all that going on...

5. But we got MELO, and he is a MELO FELLOW the rest of the guys will pick it up...Old teams like ours pick it up during the playoffs, not during the 82 game grind....Just wait and see we are setting pretty....All them guys Kurt Thomas,Kidd,Sheed,Camby wanna go out with a ring so this will be a different team come playoff time trust me...This team will be ready to bring it by April/May. NBA seasons are a MARATHON, not a SPRINT

It seems like we are suffering mainly because of chemistry issues, sometimes the players defer to melo way too much, it looks like they are lacking confidence in their post play and seem to be confused with their defensive assignments. Itís still a new team and staff trying to figure out their roles and limitations. I expected this much experimentation with a new roster. Chemistry is very important. Just look at the Spurs, that team has been together for like forever, they can sit their starters and still win big games. The only way youíll beat a team like that is with chemistry and heart. We won a great deal of games thru intensity and heart, Iím sure once we have that chemistry (and ignore the trade rumors) the team will play much better. Iím still seeing confusion in the way the Knicks are playing, just hope they figure this thing out before the post season. I'm still not worried, yet.

so you want James White, Chris Copeland, and Corey Brewer to get MORE minutes???? Trust me Vinny is no genius, he just has a deeper team at this point... Vinny was lucky to get another chance after he got CHASED out of Chicago in favor od Coach Thibbs

so you want James White, Chris Copeland, and Corey Brewer to get MORE minutes???? Trust me Vinny is no genius, he just has a deeper team at this point... Vinny was lucky to get another chance after he got CHASED out of Chicago in favor od Coach Thibbs

Lol we have Ronnie Brewer dude... I WISH we had Corey Brewer lmao (very short sighted move by our front office/D'Antoni)...

The Clippers aren't exactly deeper when you compare rosters but in terms of the injuries we've had vs what they've had it's a pretty big disparity. We have injuries to players at key positions where we really have no backup. They might lose CP3 for a couple of weeks but Bledsoe is a more than capable PG. Crawford also handles the ball a ton. They've not been in the same hole as us even if they have had their fair share of injuries.

I also agree Knicks have to start transitioning towards having players back in their natural positions and building chemistry on the floor starting very soon. We've done pretty damn awesome record-wise, for how battered and banged up the team has been.

People were worried about STAT being a shell this year, so far he's proving he can quite possibly be the 2nd option this team needs. I really don't see us as being a team that needs to have a 20+ ppg scorer alongside Melo every night. Our team is not built like OKC or Miami where there are 3-4 main scorers and half the dudes in the rotation have little to no offense. We got offense in practically every player on the roster.

Obviously, getting our defense consistent has been the long suffering wish of all knowledgeable Knicks fans and this year is no different. When healthy we have the players, and the coach, they just need to execute.

Woodson is a defensive coach but we have seen much "Slipage" and no one knows why. Here are my observations-

There are only 3.5 true defensive oriented players on our squad: TC, Shump, Brewer, and Sheed (him being the .5)

Of those players only TC is a regular. Shump is just returning, Bewer's minutes have been reduced, and Sheed can't stay healthy. There is more concern when an injury occures with little to no contact that directly relates... see overuse injuries.

TC cannot hold down the D on his own and needs a valid perimeter defender and a formidable PF along side. STAT is our best hope at this and there are only 2 perimeter defenders... do the math.

2. Rotation

I hated the unwavering / stubborness of our former coach, and I see the same here. Case(s) in point-

Brewer was removed as a starter due to going into a slump ala so many under MDA. Instead of working with him, perhaps drawing him up some plays... he was held to the uber shooting 3 point standard that gassed so many seemingly including coach. Mistake.

Kidd started out as a 2, yet cannot guard his position. We are healthy... Kidd is a back-up. I thought coach valued Defense?

Smith was not allowed to be a starting 2 under no circumstances. (Thats both stubborn and demoralizing) Perhaps he could have helped with the scoring when Melo was cold?

I believed this all happened because coach had his heart set on a plan or vision being at least 1 perimeter defender on the floor. I guess coach figured remove Brewer insert Shump- Yet coach didn't remove Kidd thus playing a 3 guard alignment with Felton, Kidd, and Shump. This kept Melo at the 4 out of position (see MDA).

Instead of (one of) Brewer, Shump, or Smith rotating at the 2 we sacrifice size at the 4. That is a mistake. If coach noticed Shump was not fully back then, he had plenty of options including Kidd at the 2 but he soured on Brewer just like our former coach use to do. Its simple you could help re-develop a players confidence, or lose him forever.

Our 2 must get us points but that would be less important if we used a conventional lineup. That means players at their natural positions. Then we would learn that the 2nd scorng option is STAT (NOT off the bench).

I get what coach tried to do; have waves of offense coming at an opponent. In theory that was a good plan but not in practice. The (big) 3 positions SF, PF, and C are locked down. There should be no shuffling unless absolutely necessary, leaving 2 positions to decide.

Coach has envisioned Felton as our starting PG but hasn't allowed anyone to challenge him if only to give him an incentive to improve his game. (Former coach use to do this too)

Felton as much as a catalyst, is a defensive liability that we cannot make up for, thus as coach thought, there is a need to have at least one of Brewer or Shump on the floor with Felton at all times. But since he is promoting offense so much Shump nor Brewer fit the Bill offensively... but defensively? What is the priority?

4. Identity

I mentioned this before and I'll say it again... what is our identity? I thought coach wanted us to be a defensive team but then there is the 3 guard alignment I mentioned above (that leaves us undersized and lacking perimeter d) and the subsequent moving players out of position, leaving Stat on the bench, that affects our d. So what is it?

Honestly I see MDA all in coach now and I'm worried. The sacrificing of defense for offense. The reluctantance to change and try new things that perpetuate his philosophy (I thought was defense).

Felton cannot lock down any G.
Kidd cannot lock down any G.
Smith has improved but is offensive minded.
Novak may as well stay on one side of the court.

Yet these players get the most minutes! They do so because of offense just like our former coach... mistake.

And they have contributed to our league leading 3 pointers taken (and made).

Remember what I said about our former coach? About taking too many 3's and the false positives they perpetuate, not to mention the unintended consequences? Well it's here again and I expect a defensive coach to take heed.

But coach isn't doing this and I'm perplexed. Has he been conditioned?

So in conclusion it's time to scrap some things and get back to basics.

1- If Camby or Sheed cannot play NOW, make a move for some size, rebounding, and defense. Period.

2- If Felton cannot guard the 1, start grooming someone who can.

3- Rule # 1: I you can't guard YOUR MAN, we don't need you for 99% of the time.. have a seat Novak et al.

4- STOP switching on D. If you try to reinvent the wheel and you come up with something round that rolls... you are wasting everyones time. Stop! Find a man playing the same position and guard him. No more switching and parsing players off. Get the basics of man defense down FIRST, then worry about advanced techniques.

5- Understand the fundamental errors you keep making:
A) start and play your best players- this helps them gel, become familiar, forge an identity and gives them something to fall back on during times of adversity. Stop marginalizing players contributions.

B) at their natural positions- If I see my young Star Shump guarding and playing 3 for no good reason... I'm going to kill someone!

C) defense is the priority- stop worrying about scoring and Novak. We are a defensive team... cater to the defesive players and show the team that defense is the priority... act like it!

6- Felton, Kidd, and Melo @ the 4 = defensive liabilities. Remove Kidd, insert one of Brewer or Shump. Play Stat at the 4 with TC for help and work on the bench AFTER THE STARTERS ARE SET. Don't try to balance both lineups.

You have 32 games if you choose to accept this mission.

*This message will self destruct in 5 seconds... 4... 3..

Much respect to Red always a favorite poster of mine but I gotta challenge some of things you are saying

First off the opposite of a "Stubborn coach" is an unstable one! If we are constantly shifting players in and out of the rotation how does stability come?

2nd I do not think Woody has shown favorites....I mean Ronnie Brewer goes from bonafide starter to bench warmer because he was a liability on offense and even his good D could not mask it.

Woody once demanded Melo to "rebound the damn ball regardless of how many points he scores or he was not gonna play" I have seen him pull guys for bad shots, bad defense and turnovers so this notion of favoritism is not real.

Coaches have to support their players, you gotta let them play through sometimes...plus to me a player like Felton serves well to stay out on the floor if he is getting beat because he is not one this bad defenders who doesn't try on D....he really does care and so sometimes you gotta let pride do the coaching on that one!

Kidd's reason to be out on the court transcends ability! Plus Jason Kidd is a crafty defender...he's not a "lockdown put him on the other team's best man type defender" but he can more than hold his own out there. Plus he is another coach on the floor.

Now I do agree about JR Smith needing to start some nights, I am bothered by not starting JR in games that James White does starts...it really is perplexing considering that White is either starting or not playing at all!!! Its really one of the more bizarre rotation situations I have ever seen!

I feel as if the team is pacing itself right now on the defensive end. I don't see how that just disappears all of a sudden.. I expect to see the same kind of defensive spirit after the all star break as we did the first quarter of the season.

Much respect to Red always a favorite poster of mine but I gotta challenge some of things you are saying

First off the opposite of a "Stubborn coach" is an unstable one! If we are constantly shifting players in and out of the rotation how does stability come?

2nd I do not think Woody has shown favorites....I mean Ronnie Brewer goes from bonafide starter to bench warmer because he was a liability on offense and even his good D could not mask it.

Woody once demanded Melo to "rebound the damn ball regardless of how many points he scores or he was not gonna play" I have seen him pull guys for bad shots, bad defense and turnovers so this notion of favoritism is not real.

Coaches have to support their players, you gotta let them play through sometimes...plus to me a player like Felton serves well to stay out on the floor if he is getting beat because he is not one this bad defenders who doesn't try on D....he really does care and so sometimes you gotta let pride do the coaching on that one!

Kidd's reason to be out on the court transcends ability! Plus Jason Kidd is a crafty defender...he's not a "lockdown put him on the other team's best man type defender" but he can more than hold his own out there. Plus he is another coach on the floor.

Now I do agree about JR Smith needing to start some nights, I am bothered by not starting JR in games that James White does starts...it really is perplexing considering that White is either starting or not playing at all!!! Its really one of the more bizarre rotation situations I have ever seen!

Im not sure if he's playing favorites or forgetting his/our principles.

Brewer was in because he played D. No one even expected him to score yet when he doesn't score, he sits. WTF?

Although Smith & Stat have issues on D, it sends the right message to start them sometime. Hard work gets rewarded.

STAT is our best 2nd scoring option and a leader. Why would Woody refuse to start him now that he has shown the has improved and healthy? Because coach favors small ball...? a lineup with multiple players a) playing out of position b) undersized. Sound familiar?

I don't expect Kidd to lock down and I see his value, especially in certain situations yet if coach really favored defense now that Shump has returned; he should have considered playing a defender next to Feltip... and he had choices.

The bottom line is we had a viable defense to start and the drop coincided with losing Sheed and Brewer from reduced minutes. It was then that I began seeing coach favor offense instead of Brewer's D. And now there's this big question as to where's the D? Hello! We only have 3 (three) good defenders. They need to be strategically played throughout the game to balance the O. Do you see this?

I saw Shump at the 3 guarding bigger 3's- not Shump on their best perimeter player.

I saw Brewer on the bench instead of at the least given spot minutes on the enemy's best scorer not a C or PF.

I see STAT as our best 2nd option and PF, limitations considered. Why is coach favoring a lineup shift instead of conventional thinking? Sound familiar?

I don't see coach or many detractors considering the benefits of starting him.

1. We only have 30 something games left. It is imperative that we get our big 3 minutes together.
This allows us to see and plan for what happens if STAT is hot and Melo not- or the opposite- Or both are cold?

We need to see this to have a plan and not try and do it on the fly come April.

2. This may actually help TC & Feltip on defense and offense while helping to preserve Melo who leads us in minutes and being bruised up. Sound Familiar?

3. We will have two virtually unstoppable scorers (1 on 1) for the enemy to consider. It will be pick your poison.

Then I saw JR excel for a stretch and a need for a SG when Kidd was hurt. Coach chose stubbornly to bypass him because his mind was made up. Rather correct or not, I want to see someone open-minded to accept that perhaps a player has changed or evolved and you'd never know. Try it, it's conventional, a SG to play SG... get it?

But no coach wanted to "outthink" that. Sound familiar?

And finally... (I ask all of you) WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A TEAM STRUGGLE SO MUCH ON D in terms of getting it? Really?

I see coach making this more complicated and unwilling to compromise although so many are struggling to get it... maybe you should scale it back and keep it simple stupid (KISS).

I recall MDA with this switching style... recall? and just like with MDA, If a player like Shump (at full health) can come in and lock down with no need to adhere to some complicated defensive scheme and still shine

it tells me stop the scheme. Let our defenders play D. Scheme when you see a need after that.

Easy answers for me before we o too far. One of Brewer or Shump MUST be in with Felton or Kidd at the point to provide defense.

STAT (until Sheed returns) is our best option at the 4.

Stop playing players out of position. In situations yes, to start no. We've seen how that impedes a players skills at his natural position. Haven't we?

Make moves to get us from good to great. We need another viable defending big by the deadline. Yeah Camby & Sheed & Kurt were good ideas but they didn't pan out. I need healthy bodies. If you can't stay healthy, I don't need you.

I think coach needs to reexamine some things this all-star break. I'll be looking for adjustments. And yes this is still the best Knick team, we've seen in 40 years but our comp is great. There's still room for improvement.

Lol we have Ronnie Brewer dude... I WISH we had Corey Brewer lmao (very short sighted move by our front office/D'Antoni)...

The Clippers aren't exactly deeper when you compare rosters but in terms of the injuries we've had vs what they've had it's a pretty big disparity. We have injuries to players at key positions where we really have no backup. They might lose CP3 for a couple of weeks but Bledsoe is a more than capable PG. Crawford also handles the ball a ton. They've not been in the same hole as us even if they have had their fair share of injuries.

I also agree Knicks have to start transitioning towards having players back in their natural positions and building chemistry on the floor starting very soon. We've done pretty damn awesome record-wise, for how battered and banged up the team has been.

People were worried about STAT being a shell this year, so far he's proving he can quite possibly be the 2nd option this team needs. I really don't see us as being a team that needs to have a 20+ ppg scorer alongside Melo every night. Our team is not built like OKC or Miami where there are 3-4 main scorers and half the dudes in the rotation have little to no offense. We got offense in practically every player on the roster.

Obviously, getting our defense consistent has been the long suffering wish of all knowledgeable Knicks fans and this year is no different. When healthy we have the players, and the coach, they just need to execute.

Thanks for the correction. It's RONNIE Brewers own fault he ended up on the bench because he was a total non-factor on the offensive end. RONNIE was so bad teams doubled MELO, left RONNIE wide open and he still couldn't hit. And the fool was too dumb to take a step or two into his range and better shot or go to the hoop. Dummy just sat outside and clanged up doorknobs. That's how RONNIE ended up on the BENCH. You ain't a pro if you cant hit a wide open, 15-17 foot jumper and deserve to be on the BENCH!

Thanks for the correction. It's RONNIE Brewers own fault he ended up on the bench because he was a total non-factor on the offensive end. RONNIE was so bad teams doubled MELO, left RONNIE wide open and he still couldn't hit. And the fool was too dumb to take a step or two into his range and better shot or go to the hoop. Dummy just sat outside and clanged up doorknobs. That's how RONNIE ended up on the BENCH. You ain't a pro if you cant hit a wide open, 15-17 foot jumper and deserve to be on the BENCH!

Poor response for a Knicks team that needs "stops" more than scoring.......no afence to u Jim

There's so many good post in this Thread ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) that point-out the real issues on our Knicks team .... except the one above.

We have not played 48 minutes or 24 minutes of team-defense since the first 6 games of the season when we started Brewer/Kurt and finished with Sheed/Novak .... when Brewer were taken out of the starting-lineup we had a 23-10 record. We were on our way to define the best offensive-lineup and best defensive-lineup to use during crunchtime games during a time-out for stops or scoring.
We are 49 games into the season with 65% of our games being close games in the 4th quarter, and coach Woodson has not established a defensive-lineup to use for a stop in crunchtime. We have been playing small-ball all season to establish chemistry, which isnt working when small-ball best success is with uptempo transition players (run run run), not halfcourt peremeter shooting offense.