Wait, what makes you think that Obi-wan didn't warn him of the dark side? Just because you are warned about something doesn't mean that you heed that warning. We're told that smoking is bad for your health, but people still light up. People are told that eating fast food and junk food is unhealty, yet we still pig out on it. We're told that drinking and driving is bad, but it happens. So on and so forth. If you're not willing to heed the warnings of others, then there is little else that can be done for you. Short of tying you up and trying to beat some sense into you. Which doesn't really work.

More than likely Anakin was warned about the dark side, which comes through when he expresses remorse for killing the Tuskens. And when he talks to Palpatine about the Jedi way. I really doubt that Obi-wan would overlook something like that, when it is a central part of a Jedi's training. Anakin did care when Palpatine revealed himself. He ignited his saber and was going to kill him.

PALPATINE: "Are you going to kill me?"

ANAKIN: "I would certainly like to."

PALPATINE: "I know you would. I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger."

He knew that he was involved with both Maul and Dooku. With trying to kill Padme. Everything. But what stopped him was his desire to save Padme. It comes back to Faust. To making a deal with the devil himself, to get what you want.

PALPATINE: "Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death."

First off, there are some people that do heed the warnings just as Luke did which is why he refused to give in to the Dark Side. The only time the Jedi warned Anakin about the Dark Side is when Yoda gave that "fear is the path to the Dark Side" speech but it was so vague that Anakin didn't understand what it meant. Second, all Obi-wan says to Anakin is, "Your focusing on the negative. Be mindful of your thoughts" but it doesn't say anything about the Dark Side and besides, if Obi-wan did warn Anakin about the Dark Side, then Darth Vader wouldn't have existed, now would it? Lastly, Anakin only showed remorse for killing the Tuskens because he realised that he went too far, not because he knew he was using the Dark Side and he didn't care enough to realize that Palpatine was lying to him all those years and that he might be lying to him again about having the power to save Padme.

Anakin had regularly demonstrated a larger general understanding of the force and one's potential through such understanding.

Because of this knowledge and (of course) Anakin's own erred pursuit of power (via the known prophecy of his supremacy), Anakin knew he was not trusted with information that could otherwise serve to help him - not to mention the Order itself.

Of course Sidious exploited this error of the Jedi Order to his advantage.

Had Anakin been trained properly (in general terms - as I am not bashing Obi-Wan specifically), an exploitation of such a design would not have succeeded.

But in the end, as his original mentor Qui-Gon, Anakin came to understand the truth on his own and that truth helped save him.

First off, there are some people that do heed the warnings just as Luke did which is why he refused to give in to the Dark Side.

Some people do, you're right. And some people don't.

PMT99 said:

The only time the Jedi warned Anakin about the Dark Side is when Yoda gave that "fear is the path to the Dark Side" speech but it was so vague that Anakin didn't understand what it meant.

There's ten years between when Anakin is made a Padawan to when we see him as an experienced Padawan. Plenty of time for Obi-wan to teach him of that.

PMT99 said:

Second, all Obi-wan says to Anakin is, "Your focusing on the negative. Be mindful of your thoughts" but it doesn't say anything about the Dark Side and besides, if Obi-wan did warn Anakin about the Dark Side, then Darth Vader wouldn't have existed, now would it?

See above.

PMT99 said:

Lastly, Anakin only showed remorse for killing the Tuskens because he realised that he went too far, not because he knew he was using the Dark Side and he didn't care enough to realize that Palpatine was lying to him all those years and that he might be lying to him again about having the power to save Padme.

Because Anakin let his emotions carry him through, instead of heeding Obi-wan's teachings.

JediCleric said:

Anakin had regularly demonstrated a larger general understanding of the force and one's potential through such understanding.

Because of this knowledge and (of course) Anakin's own erred pursuit of power (via the known prophecy of his supremacy), Anakin knew he was not trusted with information that could otherwise serve to help him - not to mention the Order itself.

The dark side never helps. And the Jedi cannot cheat death which Qui-gon says to Yoda and Yoda tells Luke. It cannot be done for others. Only for one's self and that's only to retain one's identity as a corporeal/incorporeal ghost. Palpatine told Anakin a story which made the boy question if the Jedi were hiding something from him. But they weren't.

Hiding may be a strong word but by virtue of Anakin's denial of the rank of Master (and all priveleges therein) the Jedi Order were most definitely keeping Anakin from certain knowledge that he otherwise already knew had to exist.

Yes, this is correct. The Force is a great power and it is one that carries a price for those who wish to learn every aspect of it's nature. Palpatine wasn't lying when he said that there is a larger view of the Force and it's not limited to the Jedi way. But the price one pays for such power is high and all it will cost you, is your eternal soul. On the other hand, there is more to learn about the Force that will not come at a high price. This is what the Jedi and the Whills know.

In Anakin's case he is driven by a desire to be the strongest Jedi ever. Palpatine feeds into that desire by buttering him up, telling him that he will surpass even Yoda himself. This just adds fuel to the fire.

Very well said, I think possibly Yoda maybe the only Master that is capable of knowing all sides to the force which is why he was easily able to block the Emperor and Dooku's lightening bolts.

btw, we know that the desire to save Padme (as per bad dreams) was Anakin's downfall and a self-fulfilling prophecy. But my husband believes that Palpatine was "sending" those dreams of Padme dying to Anakin to screw with him and further cement his service to the dark side. How does everyone feel about this? Agree/disagree/maybe?

That had been my impression since the first time I saw the movie. However, one piece of evidence against this theory is the fact that Obi-Wan appeared in the second dream, as he eventually did in reality. Palpatine likely couldn't have forseen that. But it's still a plausible theor, because in the novel there was a subplot where Palpatine hints to Anakin that Obi-Wan and Padme are lovers. So in that context, it would make sense for him to include Obi-Wan in the nightmares to help foster Anakin's jealousy and fear of losing her.

A while back (after reading the Dark Lord novel), I thought this as well. Also, I think it mentions Anakin's dreams and hints at Palpatine being responsible. However, I think it falls under what Sinister's post states about his bad dreams coming from his bad/dark deeds.

LOL. So poor ickle Anakin wasn't told about the mean old dark side and thats why he went bad.

PUHLEASE!

Anakin was a Jedi for twenty years. Of course he knew about the Dark Side. His view of it just became conflicted as he listened to Sidious too much and ignored the advice of the Jedi - because he was greedy.

Anakin has felt for a long time that he could be more powerful. He felt that the Jedi were holding him back on purpose. The fact that they didn't trust him and made sure he knew it didn't help matters. Then there's Palpatine telling him that he would be great, greater than all the Jedi. He felt that the council knew this and would withhold information to keep it from happening. Once he was on the council he felt that he'd be part of thier little click and they would have to tell him everything. But they didn't make him a master and then talked about him behind his back.

When he goes to Yoda for advice Yoda doesn't tell him anything new but tells him to let go. That's the best advice one of the greatest Jedi masters the galaxy has ever known can give me? He's full of it. He's lying! Lying because he doesn't want to share his knowlege with me.

If we go by EU, including the novelization of RotS, the Jedi have information that only masters are allowed to see, including Sith holocrons that contain ancient Sith wisdom and knowlege.

Well yes I obviously think that the original Jedi were flawed in their handling of Anakin. To embrace someone into your group but only half-*** it is a big mistake-what were they thinking? That advice Yoda gave him about not grieving over the death of a loved one, yeah right, he can do a lot better than that. Grieving is a natural process for someone you will be (maybe eternally) separated from. I mean Yoda could have at least thrown him a bone, like saying, "Its not the easiest path but it's the right one and you will end up together in the end" or something to that effect.

It doesn't matter anyway, because the Force had bigger plans for balance which went way over the Sith, the Jedi, and even Anakin's head until the very end. He went from a primarily selfish (I must keep her) love for Padme to probably a more deep rooted form of missing her over the next 20+ years to a pure unconditional love for his son that resulted in the loss of Vader's life but the gain of his soul. It's just sad that Anakin's family had to be the casualty of it all-he suffered quite a bit and ended up being a martyr.

And in regards to the above comment, I don't think he fell for greed (or just for greed). I think power and adrenaline appealed to him, just as say skydiving or race car driving does to some people, but that doesn't make them bad. The mistake the Jedi made was treating Anakin like a little kid and an outsider all along, and I'm sure that made him feel crappy. Compound that with Palpatine's manipulation and the guy was holding on to Padme that much more desperately. When he lost Padme (supposedly because of something he did) he just came unraveled and spent the next 20 plus years running from himself because to be Anakin and face up to the failures of same was too painful.

btw, we know that the desire to save Padme (as per bad dreams) was Anakin's downfall and a self-fulfilling prophecy. But my husband believes that Palpatine was "sending" those dreams of Padme dying to Anakin to screw with him and further cement his service to the dark side. How does everyone feel about this? Agree/disagree/maybe?

As one of the above posters said, they dreams weren't likely "sent"....Anakin just completely misinterpreted them. It may well have been a "warning" from the Force itself, telling him that if he continues down his current path, "this" will be the result. But thanks to the nebulous nature of dreams and of forseeing the future (and his own self-absorption) Anakin just doesn't "get" it. The thought barely even occurs to him that maybe he needs to change, or that he could possibly be the cause of her death. And even when Yoda tells him what he must do (easier said than done, certainly), he barely even considers the notion.

btw, we know that the desire to save Padme (as per bad dreams) was Anakin's downfall and a self-fulfilling prophecy. But my husband believes that Palpatine was "sending" those dreams of Padme dying to Anakin to screw with him and further cement his service to the dark side. How does everyone feel about this? Agree/disagree/maybe?

I believe that Anakin's dreams were just a possible future - "Always in motion is the future."

Outside of the temporal realm, everything is happening at once; here and now; in the moment (hence Qui-Gon's insistence to Obi-Wan that this is where his concentration should be). Ergo, in the eternal realm, where 'time' does not exist, that possible future has already 'happened'.

However, it is one possible future in a realm of infinite possibilities, and therefore Anakin has a choice of which of those 'futures' he wishes to create.

Unfortunately, the choices he makes are based on his fear of that future and, inevitably, he creates it. The result of such choice-making is the basis for Yoda's lesson: "You must learn to let goof everything you fear to lose."

So in answer to your question, ROTSFan, I disagree with your husband's theory. I believe that it is Anakin who creates the dream himself, and then creates that future through his fear of it.

I still feel sorry for Anakin, he tried so hard to prevent it. For Yoda's part, he should have finished his statement: "Let go of everything you fear to lose..." with "the tighter you hold on, the greater chance it will be lost" or something to that effect

I still feel sorry for Anakin, he tried so hard to prevent it. For Yoda's part, he should have finished his statement: "Let go of everything you fear to lose..." with "the tighter you hold on, the greater chance it will be lost" or something to that effect

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

I still feel sorry for Anakin, he tried so hard to prevent it. For Yoda's part, he should have finished his statement: "Let go of everything you fear to lose..." with "the tighter you hold on, the greater chance it will be lost" or something to that effect

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

Yeah really....his daughter was wise. But those words were spoken a little bit too late to get through to her dad and save her mom

It wouldn't matter if Yoda told him that the harder he tries, the worst it'll get. Anakin had to figure it out for himself, because he does not like what it is that Yoda says. Anakin wants to inflict a measure of control and to trust fate, it was not within his capability. He turns to Yoda for help and finds nothing that satisfies his sense of control. That's why he takes Palpatine's words to heart, because they can give him what he wants. Control.

It wouldn't matter if Yoda told him that the harder he tries, the worst it'll get. Anakin had to figure it out for himself, because he does not like what it is that Yoda says. Anakin wants to inflict a measure of control and to trust fate, it was not within his capability. He turns to Yoda for help and finds nothing that satisfies his sense of control. That's why he takes Palpatine's words to heart, because they can give him what he wants. Control.

And herein lies the rub.
It's not just about control, it's about trust, too:

don't trust me."

-- Anakin Skywalker, Revenge of the Sith, 2005/>

I don't trust him.

OBI-WAN: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

MACE: So the prophecy says.

YODA: A prophecy . . . that misread could have been.

OBI-WAN: He will not let me down. He never has.

YODA: I hope right you are.

-- Revenge of the Sith, 2005/>

Whatever the motives behind it, Palpatine shows trust in Anakin where the Jedi do not. And that has some effect on Anakin and the choices that he makes (NB: I am not relieving Anakin of responsibility for his actions here, merely stating that the trust has an effect on his choices).

The problem with Yoda's advice to Anakin - about learning to let go of everything he fears to lose - is not the advice per se (it is excellent advice), it is that it is not said with any love; it does not come from a place of love.

Yoda does not trust Anakin; without trust there cannot be love; without love it is merely advice that Anakin is less likely to trust himself.

There is an irony in the fact that Anakin's seeking advice from Yoda, is based on his fear of a future. And the way in which Yoda's advice is administered, is based on HIS original fear of a future too:

Problem is though, the Jedi can't trust Anakin. Palpatine is stirring the pot. His relationship with Anakin is all based upon manipulation and turning Anakin against the Jedi. If Anakin didnt listen to Sidious and wasn't so greedy then the Jedi would have trusted him!

The jedi gave Anakin loads of opportunites to prove himself and he failed at every turn - protecting Padme, spying on Palpatine, not being a master, staying in the council chambers....

Problem is though, the Jedi can't trust Anakin. Palpatine is stirring the pot. His relationship with Anakin is all based upon manipulation and turning Anakin against the Jedi. If Anakin didnt listen to Sidious and wasn't so greedy then the Jedi would have trusted him!

The jedi gave Anakin loads of opportunites to prove himself and he failed at every turn - protecting Padme, spying on Palpatine, not being a master, staying in the council chambers....

Actually, he did an OK job of protecting Padme and spying on Palpatine. Not being a Master was mostly a non-issue, because none of them expected him to be a Master by that point. He also did everything the Jedi asked of him and more during the Clone Wars, but if anything was looked down upon by his fellow Jedi for being a "great warrior" when "wars not make one great."

Certainly he had plenty of his own failings. But the fact remains that the Council and the Jedi as a whole basically used him without trusting him, and ignored the very obvious problems he was having. It might've made a huge difference if at some point someone -besides- Obi-Wan pulled Anakin aside and said, "Hey Anakin, are you OK? You've seemed a little stressed out lately and I was worried about you (or something to that effect)."

I mean Yoda himself felt Anakin in great pain and suffering...but did he ever bother to follow up on it? If Anakin was indeed the Chosen One, would it not stand to reason that maybe he should be handled a little differently? He doesn't have to necessarily be special (which is what the Jedi were afraid of making him feel...at least more than he already did), but an unorthodox student often requires unorthodox teaching to be successful. The Jedi were blind to this fact, though.

It all rolls back to something I've said before: The Jedi pushed Anakin away by being too detached. They had reached the point where simple human connections were almost unfathomable to them. They simply couldn't understand Anakin and his attachments and roiling emotions any more than Anakin could understand or achieve their level of detachment and calm. So it looked like their solution was "ignore it and he'll just learn on his own in time" or something to that effect.

Problem is though, the Jedi can't trust Anakin. Palpatine is stirring the pot. His relationship with Anakin is all based upon manipulation and turning Anakin against the Jedi. If Anakin didnt listen to Sidious and wasn't so greedy then the Jedi would have trusted him!

The jedi gave Anakin loads of opportunites to prove himself and he failed at every turn - protecting Padme, spying on Palpatine, not being a master, staying in the council chambers....

Correct me if I'm wrong here, MS, but the quote of Yoda's that I posted above, comes before Palpatine has started stirring the pot with regard to Anakin, does it not....?

This is Qui-Gon's initial take on Anakin:

-- Qui-Gon Jinn, The Phantom Menace, 1999/>

And here is Yoda's:

"The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training."

-- Master Yoda, The Phantom Menace, 1999/>

Qui-Gon's take on Anakin is based in the here and now.
Yoda's is based on his future.**

Qui-Gon is prepared to trust in Anakin, because he sees who he is, here and now, instead of who he MIGHT become in the future. When Anakin comes to the Council he is the innocent boy, unaffected by Palpatine, who gives with no thought of reward, and yet the Jedi don't trust him, based on who he MIGHT become in the future.

The problem is not that the Jedi CAN'T trust him, it's that they WON'T trust him in the first place.

-JR

**Interesting point to note: It is Yoda himself who points out in AOTC that the dark side's clouding of everything results in the future being impossible to see, and yet the Jedi Master's initial opinions of Anakin are made based on his reading of his future...

Though, to be fair, Anakin's future would be clouded any other time, because of the nature of his life at this point. He can go either way to either side and it can happen at the drop of a hat. There were too many different diverging paths that led to a specific moment and it is that moment that is clouded above all others.

Anakin was just flapping his gums, speaking before he thought it through. Anakin wants power. And he'd rather turn to the darkside in order to attain that power because it's the only thing he feels he can do.