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I've posted this in the legal employment section, but I apologize if this is not the proper sub-forum for this post.

My fiance is a public defender in a major city. She graduated from law school in 2015 from a Top-5 school (not Yale). After graduating, she began working as a public defender and she really liked her job. I'm also an attorney and I've been practicing for 5 years. We plan to get married by the end of this year.

Although she enjoys some aspects of her job, the constant stress has really taken a toll on her and on our relationship. For the past two years, she's been unable to enjoy one single weekend, a day off or an afternoon because of the dread of going back to work. She doesn't want to go out, doesn't want to work out, etc because she's just too nervous or anxious about her job.

Recently, however, the stress has reached a whole new level. Because of the stress, she's worsen a pre existing medical condition. For the last 2 months, she's spent 20-25 days in the hospital. Today she's undergoing major surgery and I write this post from the hospital lobby.

Although she's told me on multiple occasions that she wants to get a new job, yesterday she told me that she thinks she may stay at the PD office. I'm, of course, very upset and told her that I will not support her self destructive behaviors. I told her that her situation is akin to an alcoholic telling his spouse, the day prior to a liver transplant, that he will continue drinking even after the surgery.

I really don't know what to do. I've tried reasoning with her a million times but I think that I'm passed reasoning. I cannot stand by and allow her self destructive behavior harm her, harm me and harm any future family we may have.

She could get a job that pays double with half the stesss.

Does anyone have any advise?

Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu May 18, 2017 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Help her get a resume together and find other jobs. She doesn't have time to do that on her own.

Are there other ways you can be supportive to her? Help her get therapy?

I was a workaholic person but not nearly to that extent. I know you cant talk her into changing. Work is more important than anything else because she has a warped perspective. You need to help her find something else and maybe a therapist will help.

She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Maybe her doctor can tell her she has to change if she hears that enough it might start to sink in.

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Sure. If you don't assume that the woman is the primary caregiver, that every woman wants to have a child, that every woman will prioritize their child ahead of their job, etc., then it's not at all sexist.

On the other hand, since they're not actually married yet, and there's nothing to indicate that the solution to this is to get someone pregnant in order to change their priorities, maybe it's not the best approach.

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Sure. If you don't assume that the woman is the primary caregiver, that every woman wants to have a child, that every woman will prioritize their child ahead of their job, etc., then it's not at all sexist.

On the other hand, since they're not actually married yet, and there's nothing to indicate that the solution to this is to get someone pregnant in order to change their priorities, maybe it's not the best approach.

I'm male and my professional priorities changed when my daughter was born.

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Sure. If you don't assume that the woman is the primary caregiver, that every woman wants to have a child, that every woman will prioritize their child ahead of their job, etc., then it's not at all sexist.

On the other hand, since they're not actually married yet, and there's nothing to indicate that the solution to this is to get someone pregnant in order to change their priorities, maybe it's not the best approach.

I'm male and my professional priorities changed when my daughter was born.

Guys, this isn't that fucking complicated. Men aren't assumed to be the primary caregivers or to always prioritize children over everything. Women are. And the possibility of children isn't relevant to the OP in the least. So to get back to the point of the thread...

OP: was the federal clerkship the only exit option your fiance considered?

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Sure. If you don't assume that the woman is the primary caregiver, that every woman wants to have a child, that every woman will prioritize their child ahead of their job, etc., then it's not at all sexist.

On the other hand, since they're not actually married yet, and there's nothing to indicate that the solution to this is to get someone pregnant in order to change their priorities, maybe it's not the best approach.

Biggest issue is you're assuming that children are in her future. Plenty of men and women go childless. It shouldn't be a solution.

OP if you two aren't in counseling together and her individually I would start there. Even if she doesn't switch jobs just having a therapist to talk to about coping with the stress can help and they may be able to nudge her to a new job.

cavalier1138 wrote:Then I'd talk with her about why she wouldn't want to continue that process instead of staying at the PD's office. And I second the recommendation for counseling.

She's told me that for the past 2 months her job has not been too stressful. The reason for this, of course, is because they've been extremely accommodating after she got sick and she's only working a fraction of cases as before. This is only temporary and once she gets better she will get her normal case loaf back. She's may be transferred to felonies soon ( she does misdemeanors) and I can't even begin to imagine the stress once she gets reassigned.

I would consider if she does not change, if you still want to be in the relationship. I would also consider ending the relationship. It really does not seem like she is a good life partner for you at this point and that you want to be with someone with more work/life balance. If she wants to continue with the stressful job, then she can do that, it does not mean that you need to be in a relationship with her while she lives that way. Therapy can be helpful, but for that to be the case, the person would need to be motivated to change and that does not seem to be the case here. While it may be hard to end a relationship, it may be even harder to stay in one that is not what you want it to be. But really only you can decide what is best for your circumstances and then have the courage to follow through on whatever that may be.

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Sure. If you don't assume that the woman is the primary caregiver, that every woman wants to have a child, that every woman will prioritize their child ahead of their job, etc., then it's not at all sexist.

On the other hand, since they're not actually married yet, and there's nothing to indicate that the solution to this is to get someone pregnant in order to change their priorities, maybe it's not the best approach.

Im not sexist. I'm going by my experience with men and women who priorities change when they have children. People of both sexes have left biglaw for better hours after they have kids. I've seen it as a primary reason people decide to leave unless they are moving out of the city. They want to be home more with their young kids. Don't assume I'm being sexist when I'm not.

What I was trying to say as a former workaholic person is that it's going to be hard to get her to change. A change in life circumstances can do it but not getting married I would think.

Edit to add: I didn't mean to suggest she get pregnant now. I was looking down the road for OP.

Last edited by Npret on Thu May 18, 2017 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cavalier1138 wrote:Then I'd talk with her about why she wouldn't want to continue that process instead of staying at the PD's office. And I second the recommendation for counseling.

She's told me that for the past 2 months her job has not been too stressful. The reason for this, of course, is because they've been extremely accommodating after she got sick and she's only working a fraction of cases as before. This is only temporary and once she gets better she will get her normal case loaf back. She's may be transferred to felonies soon ( she does misdemeanors) and I can't even begin to imagine the stress once she gets reassigned.

Counseling is a good idea.

I may not have this right, but my understanding is that felonies may be somewhat less stressful in that she may have fewer of them than misdemeanors - they require more work/time. (This won't help if it's purely stress about the outcome of her work, but thought I'd throw it out there.) It will depend on the office and caseload but my sense is there's a very steep tough learning curve, and it gets better as you have more experience. (though I second everyone else about counseling - if for no other reason that it may well help her figure out how to cope with the stress of her job.)

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Sure. If you don't assume that the woman is the primary caregiver, that every woman wants to have a child, that every woman will prioritize their child ahead of their job, etc., then it's not at all sexist.

On the other hand, since they're not actually married yet, and there's nothing to indicate that the solution to this is to get someone pregnant in order to change their priorities, maybe it's not the best approach.

Im not sexist. I'm going by my experience with men and women who priorities change when they have children. People of both sexes have left biglaw for better hours iafter they have kids. I've seen it as a orimary reason people decide to leave unless they are moving.Don't assume I'm being sexist when I'm not.

What I was trying to say as a former workaholic person is that it's going to be hard to get her to change. A change in life circumstances can do it but not getting married I would think.

You're being sexist by bringing up having children when OP didn't mention it at all. How is it relevant? Why would you mention it? Are you seriously suggesting that OP get his fiance pregnant as a solution?

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

and liberals wonder why hillary lost lol, you guys are fucking incredible

Be careful about counseling. Your fiancé is a PD with medical bills so she may not have that much disposable income. Many counselors are perfectly happy to get paid just to be your friend, or provide advice that common sense could have provided for free.

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Sure. If you don't assume that the woman is the primary caregiver, that every woman wants to have a child, that every woman will prioritize their child ahead of their job, etc., then it's not at all sexist.

On the other hand, since they're not actually married yet, and there's nothing to indicate that the solution to this is to get someone pregnant in order to change their priorities, maybe it's not the best approach.

Im not sexist. I'm going by my experience with men and women who priorities change when they have children. People of both sexes have left biglaw for better hours after they have kids. I've seen it as a primary reason people decide to leave unless they are moving out of the city. They want to be home more with their young kids. Don't assume I'm being sexist when I'm not.

What I was trying to say as a former workaholic person is that it's going to be hard to get her to change. A change in life circumstances can do it but not getting married I would think.

Edit to add: I didn't mean to suggest she get pregnant now. I was looking down the road for OP.

I understand where you're coming from although I disagree with it.

But you skipped 100 other more currently attainable solutions and assumed that OP and his Fiancé even want children. You're "looking down the road" and you don't even know if that's the road they're even on. You just assumed. Presumably you wouldn't make the assumption if the genders in this situation were flipped.

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Sure. If you don't assume that the woman is the primary caregiver, that every woman wants to have a child, that every woman will prioritize their child ahead of their job, etc., then it's not at all sexist.

On the other hand, since they're not actually married yet, and there's nothing to indicate that the solution to this is to get someone pregnant in order to change their priorities, maybe it's not the best approach.

Im not sexist. I'm going by my experience with men and women who priorities change when they have children. People of both sexes have left biglaw for better hours iafter they have kids. I've seen it as a orimary reason people decide to leave unless they are moving.Don't assume I'm being sexist when I'm not.

What I was trying to say as a former workaholic person is that it's going to be hard to get her to change. A change in life circumstances can do it but not getting married I would think.

You're being sexist by bringing up having children when OP didn't mention it at all. How is it relevant? Why would you mention it? Are you seriously suggesting that OP get his fiance pregnant as a solution?

No and I didn't suggest it as a solution.I mentioned that because the only time I've seen true workaholics change is when they have families. I would have said the same advice if the question was a woman asking about her future husband.What have you experienced with workaholics changing behavior that you can share with the forum?Edit to add:It definitely wasn't my intention to outrage anyone. Just sharing what I've watched happen within biglaw.Personally, I feel OP has an uphill battle and should get medical and psychiatric advice.

Last edited by Npret on Thu May 18, 2017 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Sure. If you don't assume that the woman is the primary caregiver, that every woman wants to have a child, that every woman will prioritize their child ahead of their job, etc., then it's not at all sexist.

On the other hand, since they're not actually married yet, and there's nothing to indicate that the solution to this is to get someone pregnant in order to change their priorities, maybe it's not the best approach.

Im not sexist. I'm going by my experience with men and women who priorities change when they have children. People of both sexes have left biglaw for better hours iafter they have kids. I've seen it as a orimary reason people decide to leave unless they are moving.Don't assume I'm being sexist when I'm not.

What I was trying to say as a former workaholic person is that it's going to be hard to get her to change. A change in life circumstances can do it but not getting married I would think.

You're being sexist by bringing up having children when OP didn't mention it at all. How is it relevant? Why would you mention it? Are you seriously suggesting that OP get his fiance pregnant as a solution?

No and I didn't suggest it as a solution.I mentioned that because the only time I've seen true workaholics change is when they have families. I would have said the same advice if the question was a woman asking about her future husband.What have you experienced with workaholics changing behavior that you can share with the forum?

So your suggestion was... wait it out until she gets pregnant? Helpful.

Npret wrote: She's likely to have different priorities than you want her to have. Maybe after having a child her priorities will change.

Can we maybe leave the sexism at the door?

OP: why does your fiance want to keep working as a PD? This doesn't seem like the problem is related to her being a "workaholic" as much as it is about the unique stress that comes from a job where your clients' freedom is at stake on every call. But if she's talking about going back, that means there's something about the job that she feels committed to.

sorry but what's sexist about "Maybe after having a child her priorities will change."? isn't it reasonable to posit that one might have a shift in priority from working 24/7 to working less to spend more family time after having a child, regardless of who the primary caregiver ends up being?

Sure. If you don't assume that the woman is the primary caregiver, that every woman wants to have a child, that every woman will prioritize their child ahead of their job, etc., then it's not at all sexist.

On the other hand, since they're not actually married yet, and there's nothing to indicate that the solution to this is to get someone pregnant in order to change their priorities, maybe it's not the best approach.

Im not sexist. I'm going by my experience with men and women who priorities change when they have children. People of both sexes have left biglaw for better hours iafter they have kids. I've seen it as a orimary reason people decide to leave unless they are moving.Don't assume I'm being sexist when I'm not.

What I was trying to say as a former workaholic person is that it's going to be hard to get her to change. A change in life circumstances can do it but not getting married I would think.

You're being sexist by bringing up having children when OP didn't mention it at all. How is it relevant? Why would you mention it? Are you seriously suggesting that OP get his fiance pregnant as a solution?

No and I didn't suggest it as a solution.I mentioned that because the only time I've seen true workaholics change is when they have families. I would have said the same advice if the question was a woman asking about her future husband.What have you experienced with workaholics changing behavior that you can share with the forum?

Setting aside the kids issue. I don't even think she's a workaholic? Where are you getting that? She takes days off and her work stresses her out. She can't enjoy her days off because she dreads it ending. It sounds like she's overwhelmed and having issues coping. Counseling is the best step and if she's willing she can absolutely get it under control.

All, can we leave this discussion and go back to helping the OP, who has a pretty legitimate concern and is asking us for advice -- not asking us to argue whether a comment someone made might or might not be sexist.

To the OP: Without more information, I would venture a guess that her mindset could (in addition to the opposibilities noted above) be that she used to like the job so this might just be a temporary funk, and also staying there doesn't require the stress of change and the risk that the 'grass is greener' approach might turn out even worse. That's always my concern when I start thinking about lateraling. If you see it as that bad, then I think you need to push her towards another job, not necessarily just try to reason.

As for this:

Your fiancé is a PD with medical bills so she may not have that much disposable income. Many counselors are perfectly happy to get paid just to be your friend, or provide advice that common sense could have provided for free.

Therapy isn't necessarily expensive (my girlfriend's therapy visits cost us like $50 or $100 per visit after insurance coverage--something like that), and sometimes you do need a "third party" to be a friend and provide common sense advice. Some people don't listen to their close friends for whatever the hell reason. Besides, the OP is an attorney and has been practicing for five years according to him. And this isn't just a random first date. I would suspect he can cover for his fiance if needed.

Speaking from the other side of the aisle, plenty of my colleagues hated/were stressed out during their tenure in Criminal Court/Misdemeanor-land, but they loved being assigned to different bureaus.

She may want to stay at the PD job because she already went through the meat grinder of misdemeanor/arraignments assignments and she's getting closer to the point where she gets assigned more significant cases and/or felonies. Additionally, she's been there long enough that she would have a good grasp of 85% of the issues (logistical and otherwise) that would occur.

That she still wants to work at the office despite it aggravating a pre-existing condition is troubling, but there's no reason why that has to happen. As others have suggested, I would look into counseling, self-help books, or other ways that she could learn to manage her stress and leave work at work, instead of bringing it home with her.

Figure out what's specifically causing her so much stress at work that she dreads going there during her days off. Does she fear letting down her clients? Messing up in court? Committing some sort of professional error? If she can narrow down the source of her anxiety, she may be able to address it better.

edit: I understand your frustration (lord knows I've shared it at times with my own spouse), but I don't think the right approach is to tell her that you can't support her decision. She should realize that the stress of her job is neither normal nor healthy, as evinced by her hospitalization. I apologize if I am pontificating, but I think you should tell her that you support her decision whatever it is, but that you two need to find a way to help her enjoy her time off. It doesn't do anybody -- her, you, her coworkers, or her clients -- any good if she's not thinking with a clear head.

She's not a workaholic. She works from 9-5 and almost never works on weekends. She just can't cope with the stress.

The stress seems to come from the fact that her clients are facing real life consequences if she loses her case. I suspect that things will get worse once she's transferred to felonies, as the clients will be facing years in prison instead of a 364 days max. She's already said that she dreads the day she gets transferred to felony. She may be transferred any day now, as many of get colleges that started the PD with her are already at felony.

She's been under the knife for 2 hrs now. If this isn't a wake up call, then I don't see myself dealing with this much longer.

If it matters- I've been dating for 5 years (started dating my last 3L semester).

Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu May 18, 2017 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.