Fans boycott Left 4 Dead 2

A growing number of Left 4 Dead fans have opted to boycott Valve's newly announced zombie survival sequel.

In response to Valve's E3 2009 announcement that Left 4 Dead 2 would be out by the end of the year more than 15,000 fans (and growing) have pledged to utterly boycott the game in protest.

Forming in their own Steam community group the L4D2 Boycott has quickly gathered a large number of fans who take issue with the way that Valve has moved on to Left 4 Dead 2 so quickly. Their complaints are nicely summarised around nine key points.

Significant content for L4D1 was promised, and never delivered

Valve put little faith in L4D1 since they almost certainly started working on L4D2 right after release

The fact that L4D2 is nearly identical to L4D1 will decimate the community for both games

The announced date is not nearly enough time to polish content or make significant gameplay changes

The new character designs seem bland and unappealing so far

L4D2 is too bright to fit in with L4D1's visual aesthetic

The fiddle-based horde music is extremely disliked, though the differently orchestrated music is otherwise welcome

L4D2's release will result in a drop in quality and frequency for L4D1 content, even compared to before

The community has lost faith in Valve's former reputation for commitment to their games post-release

Since the group first started to swell in size there have been accusations that Valve moderators have banned users and removed posts about the boycott in the official forums, though the accusations aren't proven yet and Valve has yet to give a comment on the boycott.

Expanding on the issue many fans who have joined the boycott are asking why Valve isn't just releasing the sequel content as downloadable content, with many gamers pointing to the Team Fortress 2 expansions as proof that that Valve is radically changing support methods.

Left 4 Dead 2 is set to be mostly the same as the original game by the looks of things, with a handful of new boss zombies and a new melee system thrown in with four new campaigns and a refined AI director system. To find out more about the first game you can read our full Left 4 Dead review or check out our Complete Guide to Left 4 Dead for tips, tricks and tactics - or you can let us know yours thoughts in the forums.

It's easy. They said they won't take cash for updates, but they invested way too much time in it. So the only way they could get profit is to sell it as a different game. Although, like said, games like TF2 (which i actually like a lot) is a good example of DLC that works in favor.

Im disappointed in the amount of people here who have not gone and read the manifesto to understand the message they are trying to send to Valve.
Valve promised its usual high standard of updates and content patches for l4d at release but failed to follow through, i think anyone who has studied all the levels in the only content patch will agree, the amount of effort to make them was disturbingly lacking compared to the normal valve high standard.
Now it turns out the reason for the poor quality and lack of updates is due to them working on another game that is essentially exactly the same, and are going to sell it for full price.

This is not the Valve i had grown to love.

Full Manifesto

WE RECOGNIZE:

-Valve is a company with financial needs and cannot be expected to survive without the release of new games.

-Judgment cannot be passed on the quality of Left 4 Dead 2 until its release.

-Left 4 Dead was, and is, a quality game which deserves the praise of the entire gaming community.

WE ARE COMMITTED:

-To holding Valve to its promise of free, continual updates to Left 4 Dead in order to build and sustain the community.

-To keeping the Left 4 Dead community together in order to improve the quality of online gaming.

-To supporting the model of continual updates Valve has set forth with its staple products like Team Fortress 2.

WE BELIEVE:

-The release of Left 4 Dead 2 as a stand-alone sequel will split the communities and decrease the quality of multiplayer gaming.

-The announced content of Left 4 Dead 2 does not warrant a stand-alone, full-priced sequel and should instead become updates (free or otherwise) for Left 4 Dead.

-Left 4 Dead has not yet received the support and content which Valve has repeatedly stated will be delivered.

-The release of Left 4 Dead 2 will make Left 4 Dead an obsolete purchase and inferior piece of software after only one year since release.

I'll definitely be getting it but there are plenty of things that need fixing with the current game - numerous glitches in all the game modes, issues with Nvidia graphics cards and the aweful server lobby for starters. If they're wandering why it's not as popular as it might be, they just need to look at their own forums.

It's pretty clear that despite there being regular updates, they haven't been addressing a great deal and Survival mode aside there hasn't been a lot of new content - probably because they've been working on L4D2...

It does seem to be expansion pack content being rehashed as a full game instead, it should be paid DLC or and expansion for the amount of changes being made.

and it may be a minor thing for some: but i really don't like the new survivors at all, they seem to be a mix of 'meh' and downright annoying-looking, there's not a single one i'd like playing from what i've seen so far.
A real shame as the 4 original ones were all great!

I'll hold off until a demo gets released to try it, but apart from the new melee weapons, there's nothing at all that stands out as being worth the cost so far. :|

Well, I have to admit I wasn't going to buy L4D2 anyway - I played through the game once... took about five hours... started again, even picking different weapons to try to play it differently and it played... exactly the same. OK, so the horde swarmed me at slightly different times (at an alley mouth instead of when I'm still half-way down it) but there was just no variation in it.

Having been very disappointed with L4D - and after Joe's preview I had been quite enthusiastic - I'm not going to risk the sequel.

As for their manifesto... the one I read on the group (the same one that clx posted) is fair enough. L4D certainly doesn't seem to be up to Valve's previous high standards.

I'm not going to actively boycott the next one but i doubt i'll buy it till its a weekend special. I've not played l4d as much as i should have but i'm a little disapointed it took so long for the sdk, in my experience mods really make the game.

I'm on the fence with this one... and probably will be until it is released (someone get me a cushion). I think the group has a point, Valve has essentially undermined itself, although i wouldn't be surprised if if it was a monetary decision that wasn't well publicised (share prices would fall, games bought through Steam would plummet if Valve suddenly said "we're in trouble" etc).
At the same time Valve has the right to spend on development and then make that money back through sales AND has said absolutely nothing about prices or lack there of.
As Mr Tommy Lee Jones once said, a person is smart, people are stupid and the community does itself no favours by bitching and turning on Valve when it makes a bit of a slip-up. Being fickle only gets people so far...

The way I see it is pretty simple. The main complaint is about the promised content for L4D which is why many of us went ahead and bought a game that frankly didn't feel finished yet. This Content has not been delivered. Instead we are being charged full price AGAIN and will have to abandon L4D or play on our own. It's a shoddy move by valve and very out of character.

They promised but didn't deliver and now want more money. It doesn't work like that.

It is odd that Valve have taken the decision to release this as a fully fledged sequel but I think alot of this whining could be avoided if Valve would just be a bit more open about why and didn't feed us with crap about how much more technically advanced it is.

Originally Posted by Paradigm ShifterWell, I have to admit I wasn't going to buy L4D2 anyway - I played through the game once... took about five hours... started again, even picking different weapons to try to play it differently and it played... exactly the same. OK, so the horde swarmed me at slightly different times (at an alley mouth instead of when I'm still half-way down it) but there was just no variation in it.

Having been very disappointed with L4D - and after Joe's preview I had been quite enthusiastic - I'm not going to risk the sequel.

As for their manifesto... the one I read on the group (the same one that clx posted) is fair enough. L4D certainly doesn't seem to be up to Valve's previous high standards.

you sound like you're playing it single-player. that, my friend, is where you are going totally wrong. this game is MADE for online play with friends.

I actualyl agree to a point, seems Valve is getting more and more bulllish and are starting to look more and more like EA, hurrying to rush out more full price content with only small improvements. They are very Nazi like on the forums, quickly locking threads, even banning people for discussuing this.

You know what, It did seem to be very fast, but I look at it this way, I play L4d most nights so i have hundreds of hours played for £25 I'd be hard pushed to name that many (more expensive) games that i've had more bang for my buck with.
I'll HAPPILY buy l4D2, if i get even half as much fun out of it, It will be well worth the money. Hell I'll even commit to L4D3 in 2010 right now.

Valve has unfortunately set an expectation for free content. Thats what Little Johnny whineypants has come to expect.
Appreciate it when you get it, don't go in a huff when you don't. The community will be swimming in user made stuff soon enough.

Originally Posted by Lepermessiah They are very Nazi like on the forums, quickly locking threads, even banning people for discussuing this.

Personaly, If I created a game, and I hosted and was paying for the forum, I can't honestly say that i would let people bad mouth all over it.
Its like handing a mugger baseball bat so he can rob you more efficiently.
Constructive criticism is a different matter of course.

Originally Posted by LepermessiahI actualyl agree to a point, seems Valve is getting more and more bulllish and are starting to look more and more like EA, hurrying to rush out more full price content with only small improvements. They are very Nazi like on the forums, quickly locking threads, even banning people for discussuing this.

I do find that approach interesting, as it's shooting yourself in the metaphorical foot. Banning people might stop discussion on your own forums... but there are still lots of forums out there where Valve have no say... and as Bioware proved recently, the internet can create a raging storm out of a badly handled PR issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fodyou sound like you're playing it single-player. that, my friend, is where you are going totally wrong. this game is MADE for online play with friends.

Yeah, I've not played a great deal online... two campaigns and a bit... I'm hardly the greatest FPS gamer in the world and I've got a lot worse since real life bit a large chunk out of what little time I did get for gaming. So, yeah, there we are. :)

Though to be fair, If you look at what EA did to Battlefield 2 and 2142, when they released the paid for expansions, It fragmented the community into those without the expansions, those with all the epansions, or those with some expansions. Not a good thing.

I'll buy it. I still play L4D but it does seriously need some more content now, I don't mind paying for new content and I don't care if it's "compatible" with L4D, when I'm playing a new level it will only be compatible with those people who've paid for it, so who cares how it's structured!

Well done to Valve you're supporting those who want to keep on killing the hoard and still live in the real world :)

Some people spend so much time in their virtual world they forget how things really work out there (Especially in a cross platform world!!!!!!)

I'm on the boycotter's side. They should make it a update for excisting L4D users and sell as 'new' for new users. What is going to happen is, L4d is basically going to be what the title of the game is, left for dead...

I've joined, I was incredibly surprised to see the trailer at E3 and thought it was very un-valve like to release a sequel this soon. Think about it, how long did it take to release HL2: Ep 2? ****ing ages, and that's just an episode! Look at games like TF2, CS: S, there is loads of extra content going in there. What's been released for L4D? A few fixes and the survival mode.

Here's a nice thought:

Scrap the crappy new characters, that means no new VO work and now new models
VO work can take a very long time and can be very expensive, so cutting out that will cut down the costs considerably

No new music, again, will cut the cost, L4D doesn't need new music

All it needs, is new levels, new lobby system (especially on xbox live, it's not like they couldn't have gotten this right the first time anyway) and a few fixes. That's not really a whole lot more than they've done for the likes of TF2.

If they really do need some money to recoup costs, then release it as premium DLC, I'd rather them go back on their promise of not having to pay for any content (so long as not every bit of content is premium) than go back on their promise of supporting the game post release.

most other companies would have released survival mode as a purchasable DL, Valve release it for free and everyone complains! lets face it whatever they do someone is always going to whinge
imo of course.....

Left 4 Dead was a huge success on the Xbox, and still sells quite well. However, Microsoft does not like substantial downloadable content, especially not free downloadable content (you've seen how hard it's been for Valve to release the Team Fortress 2 updates on Xbox 360; it's because Microsoft wants them to charge for it). Microsoft likes new games, because new games make more money. My guess is that Microsoft instantly went to Valve after the first game was a success and said "look, we'll support you financially if you get to work on a sequel" or something similar.

It's business. Valve is a great company but it is not a perfect company. There are bugs in all of there games that have gone and will go unfixed, they will make decisions that the community does not like, they will forget about their old games as the sequels come out. That's the way of things when you need to keep bringing in money; supporting a minority of players after years is just not feasible. While I find the Left 4 Dead 2 announcement a bit sudden and a bit too soon, I think a lot of players have been spoiled with regards to the content Valve offers; to some degree it's Valve's own doing, of course, because due to their track record, their customers now expect tons of post-release support and content updates as standard. Frankly, the first Left 4 Dead always seemed a bit content-lite to me (I don't own it, just from what I have seen/read), and I've never been a huge fan of multiplayer-only games, so Left 4 Dead 2 does seem like the better buy to me.

Azrael, thats because vista would have to be good for that analogy to work.

Anyway, before that potential flame war catches fire...

Valve stated there would be updates for l4d (google fails me at the moment) yet when they did have some content to give the players it was delayed and delayed. Then finally when it was a massive let down. Im not talking let down in terms of game play, i loved survival mode. Im talking about let down in the time spent compared to the finished product. The much hyped Survival Mode only actually had 1 new map, every other map looked like it was taken from the original map and had a few metal fences and cupboards placed to block your path...
Then it turned out it was that! you load up any of the maps appart from lighthouse and use cheats to explore, you will find that the game loads the entire level, which is a rediculous waste of resources. and the modifications look like they have been done by an intern at the weekend. Me and my friends even found the invisible hit boxes of the unbroken bridge in the train yard on the day of release. The whole release, while being fun to play for a while, stunk of corners cut and lack of the usual Valve polish.
And now to address that and make the game highly polished and more up to date... you must buy a whole new game.

Originally Posted by Paradigm ShifterWell, I have to admit I wasn't going to buy L4D2 anyway - I played through the game once... took about five hours... started again, even picking different weapons to try to play it differently and it played... exactly the same. OK, so the horde swarmed me at slightly different times (at an alley mouth instead of when I'm still half-way down it) but there was just no variation in it.

Having been very disappointed with L4D - and after Joe's preview I had been quite enthusiastic - I'm not going to risk the sequel.

As for their manifesto... the one I read on the group (the same one that clx posted) is fair enough. L4D certainly doesn't seem to be up to Valve's previous high standards.

No offense mate, but i can clearly see you had just played single player game?... totally not the way this game is meant to be played, pls give a try to the multiplayer and you will find out what's the game we all have being praising.

I thought all game companies started on the sequel of any game right after or even before the release of the first one lol, anyhow some of those arguments are valid while the rest sound like child bickering, personally I look forward to L4D2 and hey if I dont like it well I dont have to buy it and can keep playing L4D.

Originally Posted by ApeThe main point is that the community will be split between L4D and L4D2.

To me, this is the problem. I've also been really looking forward to some of the mods that people were making for Left 4 Dead - yet they announced L4D2 just a week or two after the official mod tools come out. We already know they've tweaked the new AI director system too, so now the mod scene for L4D1 is just going to shrivel while people wait for the sequel, then for those tools, etc.

I'll still buy it. I'll still love it (probably). I'll still play it. I have to admit I'm a little annoyed at Valve for doing this though - especially since they could develop Episode 3 and Portal 2 in the mean time and give players a big dose of what they really want.

Originally Posted by CardJoeTo me, this is the problem. I've also been really looking forward to some of the mods that people were making for Left 4 Dead - yet they announced L4D2 just a week or two after the official mod tools come out. We already know they've tweaked the new AI director system too, so now the mod scene for L4D1 is just going to shrivel while people wait for the sequel, then for those tools, etc.

I'll still buy it. I'll still love it (probably). I'll still play it. I have to admit I'm a little annoyed at Valve for doing this though - especially since they could develop Episode 3 and Portal 2 in the mean time and give players a big dose of what they really want.

mods for l4d1 will be forward-compatible with l4d2, or so it was claimed. i wonder if it will work the other way around, too.

Originally Posted by CardJoe...Episode 3 ... players a big dose of what they really want.

I have to say I'm not really fussed about EP3 anymore. I've played through the others, and they were enjoyable, but I feel it's DNF syndrome all over again. Leave a game in development for long enough and people lose interest.

Originally Posted by Silver51I have to say I'm not really fussed about EP3 anymore. I've played through the others, and they were enjoyable, but I feel it's DNF syndrome all over again. Leave a game in development for long enough and people lose interest.

I can't beleive nobody mentioned COD4:MW2.
Where's the boycott for THAT? Well?
Same engine... same graphics... looks kinda the same gameplay... cod4 is only 2 years old!
I'm outraged at Infinity Ward's lack of respect for its customers! :P

Seriously though, I never got L4D.... I never really wanted it. But to me L4D2 looks like a game I might buy.
I'm not complaining... it just looks like they're releasing a game which is what the original should have been.
Ain't that what sequels are for?

Originally Posted by NatimaI can't beleive nobody mentioned COD4:MW2.
Where's the boycott for THAT? Well?
Same engine... same graphics... looks kinda the same gameplay... cod4 is only 2 years old!
I'm outraged at Infinity Ward's lack of respect for its customers! :P

Seriously though, I never got L4D.... I never really wanted it. But to me L4D2 looks like a game I might buy.
I'm not complaining... it just looks like they're releasing a game which is what the original should have been.
Ain't that what sequels are for?

There's a huge difference between a year old game (from a developer reknowned for taking ages to make titles) and a two year gap from a publisher that's openly admitted to just exploiting franchises over and over and over.

I didn't read much the thread because most of it is the same...But here's my view, because you all obviously care. :)

Creating a sequel 1 year after the release of the original is absolutely mad, especially when the original is still unbalanced and glitchy. Reminds me of what EA did with Battlefield 2. Rather than continue to support the game, the release a NEW game which is set a bit in the future but the majority of everything is the same?

Everything in Left 4 Dead 2 is easily possible in a patch or update. They're still using the source engine, just an updated version, so saying that they HAVE to release it as a full game is a load of crap. It cost £40 or so for the XBox version. Telling a gamer that after playing the game for less than a year that the sequel, which is almost exactly the same, is coming out and will have everything that the original should've had (That's what valve have literally said)...Now that's mental. Specially in this economic down turn. wtb bang for buck. That's why I now play Warsow and Quake Live. Free with constant updates. ;)

I can't beleive nobody mentioned COD4:MW2.
Where's the boycott for THAT? Well?
Same engine... same graphics... looks kinda the same gameplay... cod4 is only 2 years old!
I'm outraged at Infinity Ward's lack of respect for its customers! :P

Except they took the time to create a whole new singleplayer which is the main reason to buy the game.

A full blown boycot is a little extreme I think but I certanly see where they are coming from. L4D is still quite healthy and the timing feels far too soon (like 2142 to BF2, and Ep3 is where in realation to this?). Its still fresh in our minds and has a very EA like tinge to it.

Also what is added seems a little on sparce side in an already sparce game. It's certanly in the realms of an expantion pack (with backwards intergration), but nowhere near full new game or free DLC.

I cant see this announcment causing anything but a nose-dive for L4D sales while prospective buyers wait it out. Looking at Steam L4D had hardly taken a down turn had it?

Originally Posted by clx-That Left 4 Dead 2 not be released as a stand-alone, full-priced sequel but as either a free update to Left 4 Dead or an expansion with full compatibility with basic Left 4 Dead owners.

-That Left 4 Dead owners be given discounts for Left 4 Dead 2, should it be released as premium content.

LOL that makes me laugh... yes please work your ass off spending hundreds of hours and give it all to us for free because we are cheapskapes and dont think you deserve money for what your making....

Come on people really??? I mean I know times are tough with the economy but come on....

How is this news? Valve have an absymal record in supporting their multiplayer games after release - all three CS games and DOD:S have game changing bugs that have remained unfixed years after release with the games all effectively abandoned as soon as the majority of customers get bored of bitching.

Originally Posted by SBSHow is this news? Valve have an absymal record in supporting their multiplayer games after release - all three CS games and DOD:S have game changing bugs that have remained unfixed years after release with the games all effectively abandoned as soon as the majority of customers get bored of bitching.

It's a shame because the actual games are generally great.

I had a really long post explaining why Valve were great and everything...but then it hit me. The first time they ever used a purity check (makes sure client data is same as servers) was in CS:S less than 1 year ago. The only reason they even did it then was because I (as an admin of CAL at the time) pushed for months to get it added. Something that was a standard feature in the Quake 3 engine has taken them 8+ years to think of and add.

I know a few people have commented on the poor graphics in the videos they've releases (some sort of cross between teem fortress and pleasent stroll in the sun). Wonder if it's just because it's so early in the development cycle? I hope so . . .

Originally Posted by b5k They're still using the source engine, just an updated version, so saying that they HAVE to release it as a full game is a load of crap. It cost £40 or so for the XBox version. Telling a gamer that after playing the game for less than a year that the sequel, which is almost exactly the same, is coming out and will have everything that the original should've had (That's what valve have literally said)...Now that's mental.

Hey it works for sports games why not FPS games now? But seriously how many people do you know that buy the new FIFA or PES every year? Yes there is a market for it but the problem is that market is not the same market as a more online dependent game. With the sports game a lot of enjoyment can still be had by working a crappy team up the league, winning a few world cups and tournaments. And ultimately if you want the multiplayer experience you invite a few mates over and have a laugh.

However with the online designed FPS the AI is usually pap compared to a real person and designers know this. Their excuse for it is its meant to played with real people, but that becomes increasingly difficult the more you segregate the fan base by releasing yearly games. On the PC it might not be so bad as the HDD allows for all game data to be accessed at the same time and could mean that a person with all games could play all maps, but a person with half the games could only play half the maps. But imagine that on the xbox: "please insert L4D2 disc to play this match" and if their solution for this was to release all games on the latest game then why are we paying £40 for what is effectively a map pack?

To sum up I could see this crushing a great IP before it really has a chance to get going. And to all those who are saying its a brand new game its not, if it weren't released by the games developers you'd call it a mod so why should we call it anything else? Personally I feel tensions would be diffused if valve went back on their word and said "no L4D2, instead we're going to charge for expansions, major updates and DLC"

Originally Posted by rjkoneillwhy would valve make a new game?
HOW VERY DARE THEY!

dont be a jackass. its NOT a new game. if you actually look at that video that was posted it backs up what many are complaining about. Valve directly said that new weapons, characters, achievements and such would come to L4D now they took all that and made a sequel and are going to charge full price which is stupid. the content should have been made available for the original game even if there was a small charge. taking time and resources to make a new game instead of delivering what was promised for the original game is a simply ripping people off. not to mention that there will now be two separate L4D games so which is likely to get more attention from Valve...the new one of course.

Xbox 360 - Release a full sequel at a full price, because that's just how it is on consoles. They can blame Microsoft if they want to.

PC - Update all copies of L4D to L4D2 when it comes out, give them the new weapons, updated AI and new special infected. But charge $25 for the 4 new survivors, 5 new campaigns, new vs and survial maps. For anyone new buying L4D, L4D2 will be the only option and sell for $50 and include all 9 campaigns. This way even if someone just has L4D1 and their friend buys L4D2, they can at least still play the original 4 maps together.

This way Valve still gets paid, the community is kept together and is given enough free content to fulfill Valves promise and everyone will be happy.

Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawnehh just wait for Steams Weekend sale and pick it up for 25 lol, thats all I will do when it comes out, is sit and wait for that :)

Not reading more into and assuming people are upset over just the price, one may jump to your conclusion. But that does not solve the fragmented community problem which is the other major point people are upset with.

Originally Posted by daveloftNot reading more into and assuming people are upset over just the price, one may jump to your conclusion. But that does not solve the fragmented community problem which is the other major point people are upset with.

wow come on its a game, there are more important things in life to worry about lol

Originally Posted by logan'srunit will be 1.6 vs CSS all over again. . .

no it was just a general remark to everyone getting really worked up about it because in the end getting worked up over something so irrelevant is well pointless. Again its a game its not like it matter. Again just wait until it becomes a price you would be willing to pay instead of just bitching about a company thats doing what any other company would be doing and is to make money. They are not there to do everything free or make people who are well acting like children happy, they need to stay in business to produce better games, this L4D2 could just be a way of recovering their budget to bring out more quality games.

Originally Posted by logan'srunit will be 1.6 vs CSS all over again. . .

lol, CSS totaly owns 1.6
but this is http://steamcommunity.com/groups/1e1us all over again
when they changed usd to euro last year they lost alot of customers
for me the change was 30% more EXPENSIVE for a game for crying out lound.
i wont buy ANYTHING unless they FIX THE PRICES...

and they do censor the post on steam forums, thats a fact, just type something about the USD to EURO convert, and it will be deleted or closed, and you might be banned to

Originally Posted by logan'srunit will be 1.6 vs CSS all over again. . .

no it was just a general remark to everyone getting really worked up about it because in the end getting worked up over something so irrelevant is well pointless. Again its a game its not like it matter. Again just wait until it becomes a price you would be willing to pay instead of just bitching about a company thats doing what any other company would be doing and is to make money. They are not there to do everything free or make people who are well acting like children happy, they need to stay in business to produce better games, this L4D2 could just be a way of recovering their budget to bring out more quality games.

It's not a case of being cheap like you keep saying. It's a case of being betrayed by a company the majority of PC gamers point to (bar blizzard) as the one company doing great things for this platform. And this isn't a case of "oh we had assumed free stuff because it was Valve, give us free stuff", it is a case of them PROMISING (as shown in the video) the exact content now being released separately.
It's people that have invested a great deal of time in the community, only to have it torn apart for a cash in.
It's very personal to many gamers, as the ONE company they thought was on their side has now been downranked to the likes of EA.
It hurts like a bitch, and thus we moan about it.
Obviously it isn't personal at all for you, and to you it is just a game. It would be nice however if you could understand the value others put on a single company being above the rest, and how crap they feel when their naivety is exposed.

Originally Posted by MentaiIt's not a case of being cheap like you keep saying. It's a case of being betrayed by a company the majority of PC gamers point to (bar blizzard) as the one company doing great things for this platform. And this isn't a case of "oh we had assumed free stuff because it was Valve, give us free stuff", it is a case of them PROMISING (as shown in the video) the exact content now being released separately.
It's people that have invested a great deal of time in the community, only to have it torn apart for a cash in.
It's very personal to many gamers, as the ONE company they thought was on their side has now been downranked to the likes of EA.
It hurts like a bitch, and thus we moan about it.
Obviously it isn't personal at all for you, and to you it is just a game. It would be nice however if you could understand the value others put on a single company being above the rest, and how crap they feel when their naivety is exposed.

Just a touch of unreality and melodrama in there, I think. Gaming is a huge part of my life - more so I'd wager than it is for anyone else on these forums, but even I wouldn't claim that Valve are betraying our trust or sabotaging communities or anything. It's a dickish move to be sure, but lets try and keep a little perspective. They are a company after all - this is what they do.

Originally Posted by CardJoeJust a touch of unreality and melodrama in there, I think. Gaming is a huge part of my life - more so I'd wager than it is for anyone else on these forums, but even I wouldn't claim that Valve are betraying our trust or sabotaging communities or anything. It's a dickish move to be sure, but lets try and keep a little perspective. They are a company after all - this is what they do.

Maybe so, but they made promises and kept "assuring" us of things to come and didn't deliver, and still continue to say stuff is coming but refuses to say what or when, yet they're more than happy to let us know that a new game is coming for 50$ while we can't even play L4D properly sometimes due to the shitass lobby system, people quitting every 30secs from a game, major bugs, etc.

Can't exactly say it makes the whole new sequel after 6 months any easier to swallow -.-

Originally Posted by CardJoeJust a touch of unreality and melodrama in there, I think. Gaming is a huge part of my life - more so I'd wager than it is for anyone else on these forums, but even I wouldn't claim that Valve are betraying our trust or sabotaging communities or anything. It's a dickish move to be sure, but lets try and keep a little perspective. They are a company after all - this is what they do.

I just wanted to emphasise the non monetary aspect. Even Gabe said "this move was against the character of the company." http://tinyurl.com/pv3f4u

But you're right, they are a company, and that is what they do. I just don't think a lot of people viewed them as such until now. Thus the melodrama and the line on naivety. Valve is my Monkey Island, I feel compelled to go on about them, however I think I'll leave this topic with this analogy I saw on a youtube comment (of all places);

"So today I went to Burger King...
...and ordered the number 4 combo. It seemed like a pretty good deal for the price. However, as I ordered it, the cashier told me that only the burger was currently available and I'd have to wait a little while to get my fries and drink. Strange, but whatever, I thought. I'll just munch on the burger until they're ready to give me the rest of my combo.

The burger itself was pretty good, and after a few minutes the cashier beckoned me over as expected. However when I got there, instead of handing me the rest of my food, she told me that I should now try out combo #7. I told her that I didn't want combo #7--I already bought combo #4 and all I wanted at this point were the things that were supposed to go along with it in the first place.

At this point she started arguing with me. She kept telling me that combo #7 actually contained more food than what was in the combo I originally ordered. When I told her that I just wanted my fries and drink, she claimed that I could get those by ordering combo #7. What the hell? Why would I want another meal when I had just eaten one (minus the promised side dishes, of course)? By some strange twist of logic, she seemed to think that mere availability of another, completely separate but similar combo meal somehow made up for the fact that I didn't get what was supposed to come with the one that I actually paid for.

Needless to say, I wasn't happy with the place. The strangest thing, though, was that some of the customers seemed to be perfectly fine with all of this and were actually arguing in the cashier's favor. "Why are you whining so much?" they asked. "I bought combo #4 just like you did, and now I'm delighted that I'll be able to get everything it contained--and more--with combo #7!" At that point I was simply at a loss."

sorry but that analogy is flawed. you bought a complete product at the time of l4d's release. when you bought the combo at BK, they are obligated to provide you with the rest of the combo - you enter into a contract with the restaurant for them to give you the fries and drink, as that is what is advertised at the price.

at NO POINT was l4d advertised with the promise of ANYTHING concrete to come out for free afterwards - the only thing being offered at the price was the game in its current specification, and nothing more. only vague statements such as 'we'll be releasing free content' were made at the game's release, and legally these carry no weight whatsoever. you did not buy the product on the assurance that anything else would be supplied to you afterward, and any impression you got is just that - an impression. sure, it might seem misleading, but that's the legality of it.

What if they make the games connected somehow? That way you'd really need both of the games to enjoy the deal to its fullest. Would be a lucrative deal for Valve and also offer the community what they wanted.

Originally Posted by Fodsorry but that analogy is flawed. you bought a complete product at the time of l4d's release. when you bought the combo at BK, they are obligated to provide you with the rest of the combo - you enter into a contract with the restaurant for them to give you the fries and drink, as that is what is advertised at the price.

at NO POINT was l4d advertised with the promise of ANYTHING concrete to come out for free afterwards - the only thing being offered at the price was the game in its current specification, and nothing more. only vague statements such as 'we'll be releasing free content' were made at the game's release, and legally these carry no weight whatsoever. you did not buy the product on the assurance that anything else would be supplied to you afterward, and any impression you got is just that - an impression. sure, it might seem misleading, but that's the legality of it.

It's worth pointing out that L4D HAS had free content come out for it too - Survival Mode, continued support, mod tools.

Originally Posted by JaverhWhat if they make the games connected somehow? That way you'd really need both of the games to enjoy the deal to its fullest. Would be a lucrative deal for Valve and also offer the community what they wanted.

They've already said L4D1 is likely to be included in L4D2.

It's the ones who don't want to, or can't afford to upgrade, that will be left behind.

If valve wants to waste their time on stupid zombie games fine but their core business is suffering for it. hl2 episode 2 came out in 08 I think now it looks like episode 3 won't be out until 2010 how stupid is that and hl3 who knows when that wil be done remember duke nukem.

Originally Posted by fargoIf valve wants to waste their time on stupid zombie games fine but their core business is suffering for it. hl2 episode 2 came out in 08 I think now it looks like episode 3 won't be out until 2010 how stupid is that and hl3 who knows when that wil be done remember duke nukem.

The HL team and the L4D team are entirely different groups of people - What L4D teams do is in no way related to what the HL team does (Or, as it looks, doesn't) do.

Want to bitch about Episode 3? Email Gabe Newell and see what he tells you.

Valve aren't about to go under because Episode 3 isn't released ASAP - They have steady income streams from Steam, and surprise surprise, other games. :/

On a related note: I emailed Chet Faliszek. Looking forward to his response, if I get one.

Originally Posted by CardJoeChet is a lovely guy - it's really cool that the Valve people get back to their fans. I remember when I was in Uni and Marc Laidlaw responded to me about how to get started in writing for games.

The 'interviews' (they're really more like informal chats for the most part) I've seen him taking part in have painted him as a decent bloke, but hey. Only one way to find out for certain :D

Originally Posted by lirathealThe HL team and the L4D team are entirely different groups of people - What L4D teams do is in no way related to what the HL team does (Or, as it looks, doesn't) do.

Want to bitch about Episode 3? Email Gabe Newell and see what he tells you.

Valve aren't about to go under because Episode 3 isn't released ASAP - They have steady income streams from Steam, and surprise surprise, other games. :/

On a related note: I emailed Chet Faliszek. Looking forward to his response, if I get one.

It was valves intention with episode gaming to get games out sooner rather than later and they fell flat on their face on that one. I didn't say they would go broke making mindless games like L4D! they have plenty of money but too many irons in the fire if you know what I mean!!

Originally Posted by CardJoeIt's worth pointing out that L4D HAS had free content come out for it too - Survival Mode, continued support, mod tools.

You mean the content that was promised to be in the game at launch? Yea it was nice of them to add that, I mean, it was only promised to be at launch and then turns out it wasn't.. granted the SDK still isn't officially released even though the store page says "Source SDK" on it since before the release date

Then they also finally added the Stats promised since before launch recently, which was nice in a way.

In reality, the only content added was 1 gamemode and 1 map, of which nothing really substantial was made from, it's just a simple little mod of a couple cvar changes and an extra HUD element for the timer and that's more or less it.

So in reality, they delivered updates that should have been IN the game AT launch, though they're still missing the SDK.

In the meantime, bugs are still rampant and TF2 gets 2-3x as many bug fixes than L4D, and the lobby system is still an epic fail and horrendous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fodl4d game out in november last year. l4d2 comes out in november this year.

Originally Posted by fargoIt was valves intention with episode gaming to get games out sooner rather than later and they fell flat on their face on that one. I didn't say they would go broke making mindless games like L4D! they have plenty of money but too many irons in the fire if you know what I mean!!

I know what their intentions were (are?) - And I agree that they've royally buggered it up.

However, since you use very little punctuation I'm having trouble understanding your meaning using your posts.

EG: "hl3 who knows when that wil be done remember duke nukem." To me, that reads as "Who knows when HL3 will be out, remember what happened to Duke Nukem?" which I interpreted as "Valve are cocking around, not working that hard, 3D Realms did that and have since pretty much gone down the tubes - Is that what Valve are headed for?".

Valve, technically, had little involvement with L4D, as they purchased the studio that worked on the game (Turtle Rock Studios) ~9 months before release. Nine months in a development cycle that started ~ 14 months before isn't that long.

As for the 'too many irons in the fire' - I beg to differ. They have different teams working on different projects. Steam, HL, TF, L4D/L4D2 are the four main 'current' titles/software that they, presumably, have people working on. From what I can gather, the same team behind L4D are behind L4D2 - But I'm not 100% on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkLord7854You mean the content that was promised to be in the game at launch? Yea it was nice of them to add that, I mean, it was only promised to be at launch and then turns out it wasn't.. granted the SDK still isn't officially released even though the store page says "Source SDK" on it since before the release date

Then they also finally added the Stats promised since before launch recently, which was nice in a way.

In reality, the only content added was 1 gamemode and 1 map, of which nothing really substantial was made from, it's just a simple little mod of a couple cvar changes and an extra HUD element for the timer and that's more or less it.

So in reality, they delivered updates that should have been IN the game AT launch, though they're still missing the SDK.

In the meantime, bugs are still rampant and TF2 gets 2-3x as many bug fixes than L4D, and the lobby system is still an epic fail and horrendous.

Sorry, meant announced 6 months after L4D release.

SDK is in beta at the moment, and should be out some time in the near future - Although, since the primary focus is, apparently, L4D2 the SDK could get temporarily tanked :/

Originally Posted by lirathealSDK is in beta at the moment, and should be out some time in the near future - Although, since the primary focus is, apparently, L4D2 the SDK could get temporarily tanked :/

The SDK was promised one week after launch in November. Recently Valve made another assertion that it would be out "couple weeks" after the Survivor update, and now they say "a week after E3" which would mean this week, and we've only got a few days left.

Either way, SDK or not, matchmaking does not support in any way shape or form custom content. So it's not like even if they did release it, the game would work, because it won't until they release the mythical "matchmaking 2.0" which will most likely be a giant piece of crap considering what a failure the current matchmaking is.

Originally Posted by DarkLord7854The SDK was promised one week after launch in November. Recently Valve made another assertion that it would be out "couple weeks" after the Survivor update, and now they say "a week after E3" which would mean this week, and we've only got a few days left.

Either way, SDK or not, matchmaking does not support in any way shape or form custom content. So it's not like even if they did release it, the game would work, because it won't until they release the mythical "matchmaking 2.0" which will most likely be a giant piece of crap considering what a failure the current matchmaking is.

I'm not trying to defend their pathetic attempts at dlc, I just couldn't tell from your post if you were aware of its supposed launch sometime soon :p

At this stage, I think it's probably best to assume 90% of 'promised' L4D content is on a shelf somewhere.

Originally Posted by lirathealI know what their intentions were (are?) - And I agree that they've royally buggered it up.

However, since you use very little punctuation I'm having trouble understanding your meaning using your posts.

EG: "hl3 who knows when that wil be done remember duke nukem." To me, that reads as "Who knows when HL3 will be out, remember what happened to Duke Nukem?" which I interpreted as "Valve are cocking around, not working that hard, 3D Realms did that and have since pretty much gone down the tubes - Is that what Valve are headed for?".

Valve, technically, had little involvement with L4D, as they purchased the studio that worked on the game (Turtle Rock Studios) ~9 months before release. Nine months in a development cycle that started ~ 14 months before isn't that long.

As for the 'too many irons in the fire' - I beg to differ. They have different teams working on different projects. Steam, HL, TF, L4D/L4D2 are the four main 'current' titles/software that they, presumably, have people working on. From what I can gather, the same team behind L4D are behind L4D2 - But I'm not 100% on that.

SDK is in beta at the moment, and should be out some time in the near future - Although, since the primary focus is, apparently, L4D2 the SDK could get temporarily tanked :/

Originally Posted by CardJoeIt's worth pointing out that L4D HAS had free content come out for it too - Survival Mode, continued support, mod tools.

I'd like to stop you there. They said they'd release an SDK for L4D. That's a Software Development Kit. Which means CODE. They've released level design tools, that's it. In my eyes, that's no true SDK. Many people had high hopes they would release the code so they could produce kick ass zombie mods (which would've made the game XXXXXXtimes more popular) but they didn't. So lots of modding teams are disappointed as well...Could've had a lot of promise if they opened it up as a modding platform.

Originally Posted by b5kI'd like to stop you there. They said they'd release an SDK for L4D. That's a Software Development Kit. Which means CODE.

I'd also like to stop you right there. The Source SDK is what they said would come with L4D, it's the same one that's been out since HL2 (obviously updated with the L4D bits), it's everything you need to make your own mods and levels.

@b5k:
err... obviously you have no idea what you're talking about.
level design tools and an SDK are pretty much all you need to make a mod. an SDK is actually more than you usually get - usually it's just a crappy crippled scripting language. getting full access to the engine through an SDK is a godsend.

Originally Posted by MentaiI just wanted to emphasise the non monetary aspect. Even Gabe said "this move was against the character of the company." http://tinyurl.com/pv3f4u

But you're right, they are a company, and that is what they do. I just don't think a lot of people viewed them as such until now. Thus the melodrama and the line on naivety. Valve is my Monkey Island, I feel compelled to go on about them, however I think I'll leave this topic with this analogy I saw on a youtube comment (of all places);

"So today I went to Burger King...
...and ordered the number 4 combo. It seemed like a pretty good deal for the price. However, as I ordered it, the cashier told me that only the burger was currently available and I'd have to wait a little while to get my fries and drink. Strange, but whatever, I thought. I'll just munch on the burger until they're ready to give me the rest of my combo.

The burger itself was pretty good, and after a few minutes the cashier beckoned me over as expected. However when I got there, instead of handing me the rest of my food, she told me that I should now try out combo #7. I told her that I didn't want combo #7--I already bought combo #4 and all I wanted at this point were the things that were supposed to go along with it in the first place.

At this point she started arguing with me. She kept telling me that combo #7 actually contained more food than what was in the combo I originally ordered. When I told her that I just wanted my fries and drink, she claimed that I could get those by ordering combo #7. What the hell? Why would I want another meal when I had just eaten one (minus the promised side dishes, of course)? By some strange twist of logic, she seemed to think that mere availability of another, completely separate but similar combo meal somehow made up for the fact that I didn't get what was supposed to come with the one that I actually paid for.

Needless to say, I wasn't happy with the place. The strangest thing, though, was that some of the customers seemed to be perfectly fine with all of this and were actually arguing in the cashier's favor. "Why are you whining so much?" they asked. "I bought combo #4 just like you did, and now I'm delighted that I'll be able to get everything it contained--and more--with combo #7!" At that point I was simply at a loss."

Dude that was awesome, I couldn't have said it better myself and man have I tried.

Originally Posted by JaverhWhat if they make the games connected somehow? That way you'd really need both of the games to enjoy the deal to its fullest. Would be a lucrative deal for Valve and also offer the community what they wanted.

Im cool with that, but it must integrate seamlessly. I will just wait for a good sale to pick up part 2. Its just expensive as I have to buy one copy for myself and one for my wife.

I'm not a fan of survival mode. Like the first game a lot. WIll not be buying the sequel unless the heavens open and Gods own voice tells me to buy it (or, if I read a bunch of trustworthy, really good reviews.)

Originally Posted by daveloftAs I see it, the game reached a finished state only with the release of the Survival pack. Also the mod tools are not fully released yet.

That's ridiculous. The game as fully playable and multi-featured on first release, with Survival Mode not being even mentioned before the game release (and therefore can't be considered a required feature.) Survival Mode wasn't some big thing that made the game

Originally Posted by CardJoeThat's ridiculous. The game as fully playable and multi-featured on first release, with Survival Mode not being even mentioned before the game release (and therefore can't be considered a required feature.) Survival Mode wasn't some big thing that made the game

Correct, it was a trivial bonus thrown into the Survival pack that completed the game and made up for the fact that Valve completely screwed up on their promises.

Game was still full of bugs, and still is, the Versus maps added were supposed to be in from the beginning. So the addition of one tinyass new map and a meh gamemode was hardly earth shattering.

promise promise promise, why do people keep putting such a word in the mouth of Valve, I dont remember reading or hearing them actually promise anything, they gave ETAs but thats far from a promise. Things happen, things get delayed...

I dont blame them for trying to make money and expand on something that has obviously been successful. But I do think the issue of creating a fractured on-line community is going to be the biggest problem. Left 4 Dead will be just that, left for dead. Nobody will really want to play something that is obsolete if the new version has been updated. Valve to my mind need a way to integrate both games into one.

Originally Posted by FallenlordsI dont blame them for trying to make money and expand on something that has obviously been successful. But I do think the issue of creating a fractured on-line community is going to be the biggest problem. Left 4 Dead will be just that, left for dead. Nobody will really want to play something that is obsolete if the new version has been updated. Valve to my mind need a way to integrate both games into one.

They said everything from L4D1 will work in L4D2. The only problem with that is, those who bought L4D1 have now paid 50$ for a game, and if they want L4D2 will pay another 50$, when someone who doesn't have neither will pay 50$ for L4D2 and get the content of both games.

Originally Posted by DarkLord7854They said everything from L4D1 will work in L4D2. The only problem with that is, those who bought L4D1 have now paid 50$ for a game, and if they want L4D2 will pay another 50$, when someone who doesn't have neither will pay 50$ for L4D2 and get the content of both games.

so whats your point? other then that your cheap? I spent 50.00 for L4D when it came out, I have had the game for about a year, have played many times and I think I got my moneys worth out of this game thats for sure and L4D2 will come out and I will spend 50 for that, I really dont see the point your trying to make, again other then being cheap. I mean there has been other games with similar setups about previous content working in the newer game, so thats nothing new, I guess if you bought L4D a month before L4D2 then well bummer but you still bought a fully functioning game either way, the missions that are in L4D wont be in L4D2 so there is that value, the content they are talking about is the mod community content working in both.

Originally Posted by DarkLord7854Lol no, they already said, all maps/campaigns in L4D1 will work in L4D2, so everything you're playing with in L4D1 at this time, you can play in L4D2.

And sorry I don't have that much money to fart out of my ass like you do :) (j/k)

And no, it wasn't exactly quite the "fully functioning" game that was said to be at launch

again yes L4D1 stuff will work in L4D2 BUT L4D1 content like said missions WONT be included in L4D2 so unless you pirate the missions from L4D1 into your L4D2 game then the L4D1 still has value. Thats what I meant.

the game started, I was able to get online play against people, I was able to play trough all of the single player stuff so guess what it was fully functional, so quit bitching.

Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawnso whats your point? other then that your cheap? I spent 50.00 for L4D when it came out, I have had the game for about a year, have played many times and I think I got my moneys worth out of this game thats for sure and L4D2 will come out and I will spend 50 for that, I really dont see the point your trying to make, again other then being cheap. I mean there has been other games with similar setups about previous content working in the newer game, so thats nothing new, I guess if you bought L4D a month before L4D2 then well bummer but you still bought a fully functioning game either way, the missions that are in L4D wont be in L4D2 so there is that value, the content they are talking about is the mod community content working in both.

I hope you mean "Will have had".

I also take issue with your assumption that people not wanting to buy a second game are just 'cheap'.

Valve has a history of making promises regarding post-release support and updates. They earned the trust of their userbase - And they earned it well. Releasing a game within a year of the original is not in their game plan usually - Add to this the fact that L4D2 was started on in the back end of the November that L4D was released and you have a situation where gamers are wondering if the company has changed. On top of this, it seems that much of the same team are spending most of their time with L4D2 - Not the post-release support and content that was promised (evidenced by the ~7 month post-release gap, no properly released mod tools, and one piece of DLC).

At this stage, it's not that we feel cheap, but that we feel cheated. We were promised one thing, and have been offered something entirely different that we're expected to pay for. That's not to say that DLC should be free, but the promises made should be kept, regardless of pricing model. A sequel is not DLC, it's not post-release content, it's another game. It's most certainly not content in line with what was promised.

The fact that you have had no trouble with the game isn't a reason to say that everyone who're not as up for L4D2 as you are just whiney bitches. It strikes me that you weren't following the pre-release 'hype' or interviews, or at least, not as closely as some people.

There have been promises made that the post-release content will not be affected by the sequel - But it clearly has been. The business move is sound - The mindless vandalism of the userbase' wallet and trust is absolutely not - Which is what we're getting here.

WOW some of you really need to get a life, there's more out there then just video games, like for example the sun and women.... sheesh people its a game, get over it... business is business and with the way everything is heading just be glad there are companies still making games for PC and havent completely jumpship to console, I swear all I see is as you put it Whiny Bitches because your all getting worked up over something that is soo ridiculous it almost makes me laugh.

How about you put some of this effort into things that matter versus things that are trivial at best.

Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawnWOW some of you really need to get a life, there's more out there then just video games, like for example the sun and women....

Wow, you mean that thing on the otherside of my door has sun and women, like in pictures?

I never would have guessed, I guess having a passion for the gaming world means I must have missed out on all these fundamental things that happen only to people who don't spend time being interested in games and the way in which those companies work.

Oh.. Wait..

GZ, **** argument, next.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawnsheesh people its a game, get over it... business is business and with the way everything is heading just be glad there are companies still making games for PC and havent completely jumpship to console, I swear all I see is as you put it Whiny Bitches because your all getting worked up over something that is soo ridiculous it almost makes me laugh.

I guess you skipped the idea that each company needs a userbase and each userbase tends to have a reason for liking/continuing to support said company. Damn. How dare we like the fact that we can (could?) trust Valve. How dare we indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HourBeforeDawn

How about you put some of this effort into things that matter versus things that are trivial at best.

Lol Im so done with this thread, I have better things to do.

..Games and their companies don't matter?

It's a multi-billion dollar industry. I'm not sure how much more 'mattering' it can do. I guess the hundreds of thousands of jobs mean jack schitte in the grand scheme of things. I guess entertainment aside from, let's face it, mediocre TV doesn't matter.

Even though I will buy this game, maybe in a box this time when you consider the pre-order price war that happened with the first, this brings to mind Crysis and FEAR, the latter of which I bought but literally didn't bother to install until a new PC had been built and run in - so it sat around unplayed whilst two other expansions were pumped out, so I could play it on a machine that could do all the graphical tricks and give satisfactory performance. Crysis I didn't even spend money on because I knew Socket A couldn't handle it either - had to be a new build, and I have fears that Arma 2/Win 7 will require the same.

After 200hrs' play for what I paid, and no WoW-style monthly fee, I'm cool with L4D2 costing something. I will however, go for the best price this time, with L4D there was a sense of supporting Valve and I only buy one Xmas game anyway. If it's business now, then VFM becomes an issue again and I might play the same waiting game as the boycotters.

As for whoever brought up the CSS comparison, there are loads of maps that never made it across to CSS and for the later maps that were fully converted, you had to wait 6-9 months at a time for Nuke and Prodigy to name two. Then they added the tracker map but the only other new "content" was that economy system everyone hated and ditched after a week - not all this DLC was worth waiting for, even if it was Valve and free! Maybe it's TF2 that's causing the slight rose-tinted specs view of the way Valve used to be, but it wasn't always great.

The same goes for Blue Shift in the original HL - I even preferred Gunman as a standalone game compared to BS (apt initials)- only good thing about it was the ending that fed into HL2.

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