Exactly. And while I've always held to the belief that wolverine is a good and decent person at his core, he has done things in his life that are truly horrible. A part of him likes the darkness and is attracted to it, and he's gone to some very, very dark places.

Ah, man, Darren took him to some really dark places. The stuff on the train is morbid, but there are much darker moments for the man.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

There's a scene early on where a man burns incense in a dark room. In the background, a man tied to a chair is being brutally beaten and tortured by Shingen's men. The beating suddenly stops as the smoke of a cigar hits the bloodied man. WOLVERINE is revealed sitting on a chair directly in front of the man. He sucks on his cigar as the other men wipe the sweat off their brows. WOLVERINE tells the man "You know, bub, I don't think you're the brightest bulb. Everyone knows you need protection in this town. But not you, bub. And you had to go and make things worse. You told someone we don't like something about us. Something useful. Something to try to hurt the old man. Well, the old man didn't like that. Now you're gonna have to tell us something about them. Something that they don't want us to know. WOLVERINE stands up and says "When this cigar runs out, so does your life." He walks away and the screen fades to black as we hear the man's screams.

Wolverine is attracted to darkness, yes. But, that has limits IMO, and some of those ideas cross boundaries for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigdbfan

There's such a thing as too much and most of the things you're describing meet that criteria.

I think sadly, we're still at a point in the genre where any exploration of sexual undertones whether they're romantic or morbid, still remains taboo.

The main reason for that of course being that studios target these films primarily at the kids, despite the fact that the true demographic for them begins with teenagers/young adults.

The best example I can think of overtly safe writing in regards to sexuality is Branagh's Thor. In the MCU, Thor falls for Jane after 48 hours. In the real world that would never happen - and if it did, a one night stand would not be out of the question. But we know one night stands don't exist in the MCU. At least not after the studio abandoned the anti-safe approach Favreau delved into with Iron Man (Leslie Bibb's one night stand with RDJ) & Norton with TIH (Banner's inability to sleep with Betty due to his condition).

Humans have sex. Sex has a vast amount of degrees.

In order for this CBM genre to grow, characters need to start behaving more human. Sex is too big a part of the human psyche to completely ignore.

The studios are slowly figuring it out though. BLACK SWAN made $330 Million worldwide, $107 in the U.S. alone with a $10 Million production cost, an R-rating and a lesbian sex scene.

"Safe" no longer equates to more profit. The last Wolverine film was completely geared at children and look how that turned out.

Some of the Marvel characters need to roam in a canvas free of restraint. Wolverine, The Punisher & Daredevil simply work better when brought down to our level.

That's why I loved what Darren did with this story. He fiercely tackled the Wolverine legend & grounded it in the real world ten steps ahead of Nolan.

X-Men Origins: Wolverine was indeed a steaming pile of filth with that said I wouldn't want Wolverine portrayed as this weird sexual deviant who's also a sadomasochistic to top it off. That's as bad as what they did to him in that candyland Tom Rothman plagued Origins film. Going to extremes in most cases always turns out badly and I think Mangold's Wolverine is reaching a middle ground where it won't be anywhere near as sterile as XO:W but nowhere near as demented as what you're describing either.

There's already a puddle of blood in one of the shots with Silver Samurai so that already is a major step up from Wolverines last outing.

Exploring a characters sexuality isn't a bad thing but Aronofsky as great of a director and writer he may be I do believe has had a couple of stumbles. I absolutely detested his Year One script. There was nothing transcendent about that other than being a complete desecration of the Batman mythology.

While I like some things from the supposed Aronofsky Wolverine script you're describing, a lot of it feels really off base on who the character is and ventures into the unnecessary.

I wouldn't want Wolverine portrayed as this weird sexual deviant who's also a sadomasochistic to top it off.

I think you're overreacting to the position he's in during the scene.

If you found yourself in a toxic relationship/rebound and you happen to kill for a living, how would you react to that predicament? You're not gonna kill Yukio for seducing a random woman and I seriously doubt you'd walk away (or look away).

Witnessing public sex and enjoying it doesn't make you a sexual deviant or a sadist. It makes you heterosexual.

All in all, the whole thing explores character & real themes. It reaffirms that Wolverine is in a bad place in his life & living in the real world.

Captain America woulda ran from the train and probably vomited. But that's because he's from an era where sex in public, better yet lesbian sex in public - was completely unacceptable.

Some of the most unimaginative people I've come across on the internet are comic fans. God forbid a director take a character places the fans have never seen before (or imagined). Everything in those scene discriptions is completely in step with what I can imagine the character doing in those circumstances. Especially when removed from the comic panels and filtered through the cinematic lens. Brought to life in a medium which demands so much more. And which should be aspired to.

Here is something interesting Chris Claremont said of the comic genre some years ago "If you freeze a character into a certain set of perameters, usually for convenience - of other writers, of readers, of merchandisers, whatever - then before long that character runs the risk of becoming sterile. Writers and ultimately readers, may stop thinking of the character as a vital, real, three-dimensional being and instead come to percive him (or her) as an agglomeration of stock elements. Wind them up, turn them loose, and put them through their stock paces. Nothing changes, nothing grows."

This can certainly be applied to the film genre. If people aren't willing (or allowed) to push the boundries, or to take creative chances, then the genre will get stale and irrelevant really quick. Cynicism will set in as the genre becomes nauseatingly predictable. Sooner or later it will have to evolve. Or it will die. Why not start now?

Alexei Belyakov, thank you so much for answering my questions. I looked on imdb and it says Yashida is played by Hal Yamanouchi while Shingen Yashida is played by Hiroyuki Sanada. This contradicts with one of your replies to my questions.

Mariko rejects Logan's affection and is forced to marry Noburo, a man she doesn't love?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

No, she never rejects Wolverine. They're a couple. Shingen tears them apart by marrying her off to Noburo as a gift to The Yakuza.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreyIAN

Mariko's father is the boss of a crime gang/crime syndicate....the hand?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

He's a crime boss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreyIAN

How does all those ninjas ties in the story?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

The ninjas are The Hand. Wolverine trains with them & fights them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreyIAN

Did we get to see Silver Samurai's alter ego.? How he become Silver Samurai?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

He's a bastard from start to finish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreyIAN

Logan managed to stop the arranged marriage of Mariko?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Nope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreyIAN

Do Logan loves Mariko or Yukio?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

He absolutely loves Mariko, but cares about Yukio in a toxic way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreyIAN

So Mariko ends up getting raped and tortured by Noburo?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

She sleeps with him out of duty. Its not violent, just depressing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreyIAN

So the only good guys in this film are Logan, Mariko and to a certain extent....Yukio? The rest are all bad guys?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

The main "good guy" after Wolverine is Ogun - the man who trains Wolverine. After him is Frank, a Yakuza boss who helps Wolverine fight Shingen. Next is Stick who's Ogun's second in command and spars with Wolverine during the training.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoNicRaDiATioN

Some of the most unimaginative people I've come across on the internet are comic fans. God forbid a director take a character places the fans have never seen before (or imagined). Everything in those scene discriptions is completely in step with what I can imagine the character doing in those circumstances. Especially when removed from the comic panels and filtered through the cinematic lens. Brought to life in a medium which demands so much more. And which should be aspired to.

Here is something interesting Chris Claremont said of the comic genre some years ago "If you freeze a character into a certain set of perameters, usually for convenience - of other writers, of readers, of merchandisers, whatever - then before long that character runs the risk of becoming sterile. Writers and ultimately readers, may stop thinking of the character as a vital, real, three-dimensional being and instead come to percive him (or her) as an agglomeration of stock elements. Wind them up, turn them loose, and put them through their stock paces. Nothing changes, nothing grows."

This can certainly be applied to the film genre. If people aren't willing (or allowed) to push the boundries, or to take creative chances, then the genre will get stale and irrelevant really quick. Cynicism will set as the genre becomes nauseatingly predictable. Sooner or later it will have to evolve. Or it will die. Why not start now?

We are 100% in agreement.

The genre's gotta keep evolving. Nolan took it far, but there's plenty of room to go from there.

Some of the most unimaginative people I've come across on the internet are comic fans. God forbid a director take a character places the fans have never seen before (or imagined). Everything in those scene discriptions is completely in step with what I can imagine the character doing in those circumstances. Especially when removed from the comic panels and filtered through the cinematic lens. Brought to life in a medium which demands so much more. And which should be aspired to.

Here is something interesting Chris Claremont said of the comic genre some years ago "If you freeze a character into a certain set of perameters, usually for convenience - of other writers, of readers, of merchandisers, whatever - then before long that character runs the risk of becoming sterile. Writers and ultimately readers, may stop thinking of the character as a vital, real, three-dimensional being and instead come to percive him (or her) as an agglomeration of stock elements. Wind them up, turn them loose, and put them through their stock paces. Nothing changes, nothing grows."

This can certainly be applied to the film genre. If people aren't willing (or allowed) to push the boundries, or to take creative chances, then the genre will get stale and irrelevant really quick. Cynicism will set in as the genre becomes nauseatingly predictable. Sooner or later it will have to evolve. Or it will die. Why not start now?

I disagree as I don't see Wolverine doing that in those scenarios. I think better risks can be taken with Wolverine that are more in line with the character.

Exactly. It's not a matter of "not having imagination" because you don't like where Aronofsky was supposedly taking this. Not liking it is not liking it. I feel he was taking it from one extreme - Origins, which was the horribly watered down version of the character in a movie that barely fit in with the movies it was supposed to be a prequel to, and such a bad prequel that it didn't even explain where his own name came from - to an extreme R-rated movie that takes the character into this demented sadomasochistic realm that I don't think it needs either.

And that's not a matter of not understanding the character, it's a matter of just not liking how it was going to be told.

__________________”We live in times when hate and fear seem stronger. We rise and fall, and light from dying embers: remembrances that hope and love last longer. And love is love is love is love is love is love is love cannot be killed or swept aside."

no kid in fifteen years will recall what was going on in the haze of animated card game shows where cat faced japanese children yelled annoyingly and danced around and shot mushrooms out of their mouths.

Ah, man, Darren took him to some really dark places. The stuff on the train is morbid, but there are much darker moments for the man.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

There's a scene early on where a man burns incense in a dark room. In the background, a man tied to a chair is being brutally beaten and tortured by Shingen's men. The beating suddenly stops as the smoke of a cigar hits the bloodied man. WOLVERINE is revealed sitting on a chair directly in front of the man. He sucks on his cigar as the other men wipe the sweat off their brows. WOLVERINE tells the man "You know, bub, I don't think you're the brightest bulb. Everyone knows you need protection in this town. But not you, bub. And you had to go and make things worse. You told someone we don't like something about us. Something useful. Something to try to hurt the old man. Well, the old man didn't like that. Now you're gonna have to tell us something about them. Something that they don't want us to know. WOLVERINE stands up and says "When this cigar runs out, so does your life." He walks away and the screen fades to black as we hear the man's screams.

Hmm, I see what you're saying. The problem at least for me is that I think it's out of place in THIS particular story. Wolverine during his spy days, pre weapon x op, when he was a killer who enjoyed killing, I could see that scene working. However the Japanese storyline is past that. This is the type of scene that should have been in the origins movie.

I know, that's the point. That period of time was when wolverine was really a bad guy. He killed because it was his job and a part of him enjoyed it. The movie should have had scenes like the one described.

dont talk to us about imagination unless you want characters and mythology disrespected

I don't see Wolverine or the mythology being disrespected in those scene discriptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

I disagree as I don't see Wolverine doing that in those scenarios. I think better risks can be taken with Wolverine that are more in line with the character.

That's fair enough. I think it's in his nature to do those things under those circumstances. Everything in those discriptions read "Wolverine" to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by danoyse

Exactly. It's not a matter of "not having imagination" because you don't like where Aronofsky was supposedly taking this. Not liking it is not liking it. I feel he was taking it from one extreme - Origins, which was the horribly watered down version of the character in a movie that barely fit in with the movies it was supposed to be a prequel to, and such a bad prequel that it didn't even explain where his own name came from - to an extreme R-rated movie that takes the character into this demented sadomasochistic realm that I don't think it needs either.

And that's not a matter of not understanding the character, it's a matter of just not liking how it was going to be told.

I understand this and agree to some extent. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. And my comment about "not having imagination" wasn't aimed at anyone in particular on this thread, it's more of an overall frustration I've had with comic fans for awhile now. More often than not they are too literal-minded when it comes to comic adaptations. Maybe I'm too open-minded in this respect. I had no problems whatsoever with Peter and MJ having sex on top of the Brooklyn Bridge in Cameron's script. It seemed well within the scope of possibility to me that they would have sex (and in places no one else could). I have similar feelings to the real world dimensions of Aronofsky's treatment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by def28

This happens in the comics as well as film all the time. Its nothing new, especaily with this franchise. Some will dig it and agree with the change, others not so much. Nothing really wrong with that.

If you don't explore these characters on film beyond the panels from which they originate, then it's a disservice to the genre imo.

If anything the crappy Batman year One script may have been more frank Miler than
Aronofsky which I kinda suspect after hearing details from his rewrite on The Wolverine.

I have no problem with the sexual stuff I am hearing from that draft.Just like In amazing spider-man series I am hoping they have Peter and Gwen having sex before she Is killed.
I prefer Michelle Pfeiffer's catwoman over anne hathaway's In part because Nolan
downplayed the dominatrix overtunes to Catwoman.

If you don't explore these characters on film beyond the panels from which they originate, then it's a disservice to the genre imo.

I disagree with that being "a disservice to the genre". Thats a bit much. What goes inbetween the panels can be a good thing or bad. Most want a faithful representation, as would anyone watching a novel adaption. Since this film is based on a particular stroyline most want this film as close as possible but theres about 40 years of material exploring Wolverine in the comics. One movie is not gonna go beyond that. And moving away from the panels has not made Wolverine a better character so far. Even with 4 movies they havnt came close to reaching his potential imo. It needs to try and grab the essence of why the character works in this story and setting as much as possible.

I personally wouldnt mind seeing Aronfskys take. The dudes a master story teller, and I have faith in anything he does. I really want a more adult approach to the character. But adding a harsher take with more sex and violence wont appeal to everyone.

I disagree with that being "a disservice to the genre". Thats a bit much. THose ideas can be a good thing or bad. Most want a faithful representation, as would anyone watching a novel adaption. Since this film is based on a particular stroyline most want this film as close as possible but theres about 40 years of material exploring Wolverine in the comics

I want a faithful representation as well, I don't think those scenes are unfaithful. It captures elements, or spirit of the character that we've seen through the 40 years of storylines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by def28

And moving away from the panels has not made Wolverine a better character so far.

When I say "explore beyond the panels" I don't mean changing the core of the character as developed in the comics, but to expand the canvas for Wolverine's characteristics to exist in. There are things to be inferred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by def28

Even with 4 movies they havnt came close to reaching his potential imo. It needs to try and grab the essence of why the character works in this story and setting as much as possible.

I agree that Wolverine hasn't come close to his potential yet on screen, but feel that some of these scene descriptions go a long way into capturing the essence of why the character works in this particular story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvelrobbins

I have no problem with the sexual stuff I am hearing from that draft.Just like In amazing spider-man series I am hoping they have Peter and Gwen having sex before she Is killed..