MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC ANCHOR: This morning my question, is President Obama winning his leg of the relay swim?

Plus, beware of the pop-up tax man.

And hunger strike at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

But first, separating fact from fiction when it comes to the politics of the wage gap.

Good morning, I`m Melissa Harris-Perry. This week Senate Democrats tried unsuccessfully to pass their Paycheck Fairness Act to help close the wage gap between men and women workers. This, of course, set the nation to talking about women and work, and you can`t really talk about working women in America without thinking of Rosie. Rosie Riveter, the we can do it figure of World War 2. Rosie answered the call of her nation by trading in her apron for a riveting gun. As millions of young men left home to do battle for democracy overseas, millions of women took up their place in the factories of the defense industry, fighting for democracy right here at home. 310,000 women worked in the aircraft industry alone, where almost none had worked before. Yes, Rosie and her sisters in the fight for democracy were critical to the war effort and a grateful nation thanks these efficient, sacrificial, hard-working women with deafening applause and paychecks half the size of the men who worked alongside with them.

And never fear, when the war ended, these loyal women workers who toiled for half pay were indeed rewarded with a promotion to the most important job of all. Domestic technician. Yes, once the men came home from war, Rosie was told to go home and to rebuild the nation another way, by making babies and buying consumer items and, man, Rosie did a damn good job at that too. Let it never be forgotten that it was the Rosies who gave birth to the baby boomers. It`s interesting then that Democratic women in the Senate framed their failed vote on Paycheck Fairness Act in terms of war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARBARA MIKULSKI (D) MARYLAND: We`re leading an American revolution, just like Abigail Adams encouraged us. If they forget the ladies, we`re here to fight. So I said square your shoulders, put your lipstick on and let`s fight another day.

SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D) WASHINGTON: We deserve more than to be left fighting the same uphill battles for justice we`ve been fighting for decades and decades.

SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN (D) WISCONSIN: Opposition to the Paycheck Fairness Act is a war on progress in our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: It also probably won`t surprise you to hear that the Republicans blocked the bill. They said it was not about real policy, but a transparent political stunt to draw more women voters to come out in November. Now here`s what the Paycheck Fairness Act would have done. It would require some companies to report salary information to the government and would prohibit retaliation against employees for telling one another how much they make. It would also expand opportunities for workers to sue their employers over wage discrimination. Now, workers can sue already, thanks to the Equal Pay Act, but it`s a hard road to take. And a woman has to know that she`s being paid less. She has to find another employee making more money for the same job and she has to be willing to risk, torpedoing her own career in order to do so. She has to find a lawyer willing to take her case. That`s not an easy thing to do when workers win only a third of the time in equal pay cases. The Paycheck Fairness Act would address that to some extent by narrowing the grounds on which an employer can claim that the disparity is due to legitimate business reasons, but it still puts the onus on the workers to sue a system that has not yet closed the wage gap. And that`s why, frankly, I kind of agree with the Republicans. You know, they said that the act is a little more a piece of political fluff than to lure women voters and, you know, because for all the talk of women making 77 cents on every dollar that a man earns, wage discrimination is simply not the only reason. The reality is in fact far more complicated. Just look at the White House. Republicans made much hay over the fact that women working at the White House earn on average 88 percent of what men working at the White House make. And they asked about it on Monday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney explained that men and women in the White House are paid the same level -- the same amount for the same level of job, but the problem only comes when you do the math.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: When you look at the aggregate and this includes everybody from this most senior levels to the lowest levels, you`re averaging all salaries together, which means including the lowest level salaries, which may or may not be, depending on the institution, filled by more women than men.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Probably not a great idea to engage in mansplaining - mansplaining, but let me just say, that what Carney said here is, in fact, exactly the problem for women nationwide. Women as an aggregate make less money than men and that`s because they`re more likely to work those lower level jobs. Women make almost two thirds of workers who make a minimum wage or less, and women account for nearly three-quarters of workers in tipped occupations like waitressing where the federal minimum is only $2.13 an hour. Women congregate in lower paying fields. Nine out of ten college majors that offer the least lucrative careers are dominated by women. Fields like early childhood education and social work. And then there are the disparities even within similar fields. Nurse midwives, for example, are 95 percent women and they are paid less than half as much as ob/gyns who are 50 percent men. Maids make less than janitors. And according to data compiled by Bloomberg, the highest paid women at major corporations made an average 18 percent less than the highest paid men in part because women tend to have lower level see suite positions and not that top CEO gig.

So disparity is complicated and due to a variety of reasons that require a variety of solutions. Like raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, guaranteeing paid parental leave, instituting Universal Pre-K. Joining me now, Bryce Covert who`s the economic policy editor at ThinkProgress and a contributor at "The Nation," Rick Newman, who`s columnist at Yahoo Finance. Christina Greer, who`s assistant professor at Fordham University and author of "Black Ethnics Race: Immigration and Pursuit of the American dream." And Nomi Prins who`s the senior fellow at Demos and author of a great new book "All the President`s Bankers, the Hidden Alliances That Drive American Power." So nice to have you all here.

CHRISTINA GREER, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Thank you.

NAOMI PRINCE: Thank you.

HARRIS-PERRY: Bryce, I`m going to start with you. So, on the one hand, like I`m down with the Paycheck Fairness Act - (INAUDIBLE) It will make things worse. But I`m not completely against the Republicans` point that it`s maybe a little more politics than it is substantively getting to this complicated set of questions.

BRYCE COVERT, THINK PROGRESS: Yeah, I want to give the Republicans two points. One is that I do think the idea that the Paycheck Fairness Act or the Lilly Ledbetter Act are silver bullets that will just close the wage gap. That just doesn`t live up to reality. We need, like you said, I loved all the solutions that you put forward.

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, my liberal utopia that I would build.

COVERT: I would build it with you. I also think that they have a point. You know, they have been pushing back on the idea that there is a wage gap. I wouldn`t give them that point, but I would give them the point that it`s complicated and saying that the 77 percent earnings that women make compared to men is all discrimination, is misleading. And I think that that number gets thrown around without a whole lot of context.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, so on the one hand, like I want to be able just to make that point because it`s so important that it`s not just, you know, the male manager up there, you know, HR manager who`s making a decision to pay the little woman less. On the other hand, it doesn`t mean that discrimination like - you know, that sort of base of discrimination is gone. It does in fact continue to exist in the workforce.

NOMI PRINS, AUTHOR, "ALL THE PRESIDENT`S BANKERS": Well, exactly. And as you mentioned, the power relationship in the workforce, particularly at the positions that are higher in companies and in the companies that themselves make more money, for example, in banking, the top six banks have always been run by men. The managing partners are traditionally mostly men and that has been the case historically. So, and that`s where the money is. So you filter that out through the issue of the framework of why women also don`t have as much money as men in terms of their paychecks. Well, they also don`t have as much power. And that is a big part of the complexity of the issue.

HARRIS-PERRY: So let me take that point around power, Christina. And come in part to what I see as maybe the most distressing thing that happens when we do the aggregate - men versus women. And that is that we forget that - or what that can do is generate a sense of false solidarity that all women are all necessarily in the same circumstance of unfairness. So even if there`s a general sense of unfairness, if in fact my H.R. manager or my direct supervisor or the woman whose kitchen I clean is a woman, she nonetheless might be engaging with me in a way that is unfair as her employee.

GREER: Right. I think the historical context is really important. Because we also - we constantly throw around this 77 cents to a dollar conversation, but we do also know that there`s a very real racial divide also within this, right? So if white women for the most part are making 77 cents on the dollar, we know that black and Latina women are making much less.

HARRIS-PERRY: In fact, let me show you those numbers. So do we have - Because 77 is the number we`ve been hearing. But when we look at the race gap, the wage gap from African-American women, if we compare it to white men`s earnings, they only make 64 percent of what white men earn. 89 percent of what black men earn and 82 percent of what white women earn. So we see African-American women on the bottom there. Bu then also look at Latinas. And the earning for Latinas there - for compared to white men is 53 percent, right? And that is probably not because there are Latina CEOs who are being paid less. That has everything to do with a structured market that puts those women, black and Latina women in a different ...

GREER: But it`s also - a structured market, right? When we think about FDR, I mean the way he was able to get the new deal passed, is to really just sell black women down the river literally, right? And so he excludes domestic workers. So, now we have a historical conversation about wealth, right? Wealth, race and gender that goes across time and so we see people sort of stuck in sectors. I mean not just early childhood education and social work, but we also see the replication of poverty and replication of lower wage jobs. So I think we also have to make sure we historicize some of these inequities. Because they are not going to erase overnight. I mean I, you know, I do somewhat agree with the Republicans, but there is something to be said about symbolic legislation every now and again. Right? I mean we saw this with Apartheid legislation in the `80s and, you know, it seemed ridiculous, but over time it can sort of move progress a little bit more.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, this is an interesting point, that even as I have a critique of the Democrats on the Paycheck Fairness Act, the fact is I don`t have any idea what the right might be offering as an alternative.

RICK NEWMAN, YAHOO! FINANCE: That`s right. Well, let`s think about a way you might actually get something like this to pass. I mean here`s an idea. So, one GOP objection is look, we can`t put yet another burden on businesses. There`s actually some legitimacy to that. I mean if you talk to business owners, they really are drowning in regulation. So here`s a way you can construct a win-win. OK? So, you know what? If you`re the Democrat, you know,, we`re going to give you that point. Let`s take away a few outdated regulations on business, and believe me there are plenty ...

HARRIS-PERRY: Sure.

NEWMAN: And say we`re going to put a new regulation on them. Let`s take a few regulations off of them. How does that sound? Could you - is this a possible win-win position? I mean this - It`s not that hard to get to ....

HARRIS-PERRY: This is the balanced budget theory, right? Right?

NEWMAN: This is called a compromise.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, right, right.

NEWMAN: If you really want to pass a law, make a compromise.

HARRIS-PERRY: That`s a dirty word in D.C. these days, in part because part of what they want to be able to do and we`ll get to this, is to say we presented this, the other side is against it, right? And so part of the question is how well does that serve folks who are actually doing the work in these communities, in these corporations. When we come back, we`re going to talk more about the pay gap debate coming out of the Texas attorney general`s office.

But first, the departure of one of the top women in the Obama administration, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius publicly announced her resignation Friday after five years that focused largely on the Affordable Care Act. She was widely criticized after a troubled rollout of the healthcare.gov website, but as she leaves office, the administration has exceeded its goal of 7 million people signing up for health care during the initial open enrollment period. President Obama praised Sebelius and nominated Sylvia Matthews Burwell who`s de factor of the White House office of Management and Budget as her successor. In her farewell speech, the secretary reflected on her work on the ACA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, U.S. DEPT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: We are on the front lines of a long overdue national change, fixing a broken health system. Now, this is the most meaningful work I`ve ever been a part of. In fact, it`s been the cause of my life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Let`s look at one specific example of a wage gap, the Texas attorney general`s office. Assistant attorney generals who are men make more on average than those who are women. Now, that is something that`s come up and been a bit of a topic of a debate because in Texas the Attorney General Greg Abbott, is running for governor. The attorney general`s office has defended itself by saying discrepancy stems from differences in how long the men have been licensed and have worked at the agency. Not so, says Professor Bethany Albertson and assistant professor of government at the University of Texas in Austin. Writing in "Texas Monthly" she says "Based on my analysis it turns out that each additional year of experience corresponds with a $992 increase in salary, if you`re a man. But if you`re a woman, the increase is about $200 less or $798 per year of experience. This discrepancy per year of experience shows just how insidious a gender wage gap can be. So, I`d love this research by Professor Albertson in part because it`s indicative of that, you know, on the one hand you have Abbott`s office like Carney saying oh, no, it`s not discrimination, it`s just this other thing. But when you look at it, no, each additional year of experience has a steeper curve for men than for women.

COVERT: Absolutely. Women -- people often say, oh, well, you know, it`s differing levels of education, let`s say. But women graduate from college. The first year out they are making less than men despite their grades, despite their college. And then no matter what higher degree they take on, they will make less than an average man, so they get a Ph.D. They`re still making less. They get an MBA, they`re still making less. So, we always see these discrepancies even within groups.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. So, that was an AUW study that in part showed that discrepancy for college grads coming straight out and that idea that on the one hand it is that traditional labor market question where women`s domestic work is not valued as private work and therefore isn`t valued as public work, but it is also that even if they`re taking the same job. So, we were talking in the break a little bit about the idea that transparency, which is part of the Paycheck Fairness Act could help this issue.

PRINS: Yeah, and I think that part of it isn`t getting discussed as much and it should be discussed a lot more. Because if you know as a woman or as anyone in a work environment what someone else is making for the same level that you have, then you have the ability to go in and fight. It should be fair, everything should be fair. That would be a great situation. But if you at least are armed with a bullet, the ammunition to go in and say, you know what, that guy is making that much money to do what I do. In fact I`m actually doing it more, but let`s just leave that aside. That guy is doing -- I want to be at the same level because in many cases, particularly as you go on up the ladder on the corporate side and in these institutions where more money is swirling around anyway and it doesn`t even come out in the wage gap because it`s in bonuses and other forms of compensations, you need to know so that you have the ability to fight. And that`s a very important part of this act, which is a shame that it didn`t get through.

HARRIS-PERRY: Wait, I want to push back a little on something that you said earlier. At one point you said, and at first, I was going with you, because I am a fan of actually getting things done and this idea of trade-offs seemed right. But then the more we were kind of thinking and talking about it on the break, I thought wait a minute, we don`t make trade-offs on basic fairness. This isn`t a regulation, right, this is about paying workers in a fair way for doing the same kind of work and providing transparency so that if they`re not being paid that way. So, I just - I want to go back and ask a little bit about that because you framed it as regulation. And I`m wondering if there is another way to think about this. Because we don`t think of basic human or civil rights as regulations.

NEWMAN: Well, this is messy. I mean we`re talking about all these different ways. You can`t exactly put these in two columns on the piece of paper and say here`s the women, here`s the men. It`s that simple to break down. I was just talking about how to pass a law. With, you now, laws are never perfect.

HARRIS-PERRY: Full house ..

NEWMAN: Laws are never perfect.

HARRIS-PERRY: Sure.

NEWMAN: They`re always messy.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah.

NEWMAN: But I, you know, this is - we`ve just shifted this conversation away from policy solutions a little bit and you`re talking about women themselves in the workplace. And I think one thing that`s important to point out here is it`s never been a better time for women to take this matter into their own hands when they can. They can`t always do that. But sometimes they can. There is more support than there has ever been. A lot of attention like we`re giving it right now, thanks in part to, you know, people putting legislation in force and President Obama drawing attention to this, to this fairness issue. This argument in Texas is terrific. It`s great that it`s getting this attention. And I`ll bet you things change.

HARRIS-PERRY: So ....

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: But let me suggest that I think that`s both true and not true, which is to say I agree that we have made enormous progress, particularly for women in the workforce. I`m not quite with the end of men as a theory. But that`s we`ve also seen a regress in labor rights in general. And so I just think for workers in general in this moment with the very slack labor market, it`s hard to make an argument about the power of any laborer to negotiate vis-…-vis, right, their employer at this moment.

GREER: Well, I mean we know that we`re right now in a moment where it`s a war on poor people. It really is a war on women. I mean the fundamental principles of American democracy are not based on fairness, they`re based on economic inequality. And so, for us to sort of not really think about, you know, the 1700s, 1800s and all the ways, in which the fabric of this nation is about. So this economic inequality and making sure that the exclusion of others to a certain extent benefits you.

HARRIS-PERRY: This is an argument vis-a-vis chain on race but you`re making it around gender. That there is - that even though we have the kind of soaring ideals in our rhetoric, that in practice we have always seen this kind of interweaving inequality.

GREER: Right. And we know that this intersectionality exists. So if it exists not just on a black/white spectrum, not just on a male/female spectrum, right? And so you have all these other groups now that are into it. And so, for us to start these conversations, yes, they`re productive, but like the policies themselves, there isn`t going to be a magic bullet and it`s going to take a series of various policies but also it`s going to take even more time, right. And so the question is how long do women have to wait, right? I mean a student just wrote a fantastic paper about how women are taxed on sanitary products, because it`s a luxury good. So even these minor things just erode at women`s sort of financial security.

HARRIS-PERRY: I love that you said intersectional because there`s a little bit of a drinking game that goes on in my control room around the use of the word intersectional. It`s almost always me, but see, it was my guest this time.

Up next, the type of Republican lawmaker Democrats just love to hate. The argument that Democrats love to make.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKULSKI: It brings tears to my eyes to know how women every single day are working so hard and are getting paid less. It makes me emotional to hear that. Then when I hear all of these phony reasons, some are mean and some are meaningless, I do get emotional. I get angry, I get outraged, I get volcanic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So if you`re a political party trying to get women to the polls, Democrats have at least a two-pronged strategy. One, to offer policies that they can say will improve the lives of women, like the Paycheck Fairness Act, we`ve been talking about, but the second prong is to sit back and just let Republicans say stuff like what one Missouri state representative said this week in defense of a proposed 72-hour waiting period for abortion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE REP. CHUCK GATSCHENBERGER (R ) MISSOURI: Even when I buy a new vehicle, this is my experience again, I don`t go right in there and say I want to buy that vehicle and then you walk -- you know, you leave with it. I have to look at it, get information about it, maybe drive it, you know, a lot of different things, check prices. There`s a lot of things that I do - into a decision, whether that`s a car, whether that`s a house, whether that`s any major decision that I put in my life, even carpeting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Even carpeting. So, look, there are -- you know, I don`t want to - I don`t want to - by the notion that all women are pro reproductive justice, they aren`t. But even women who oppose abortion may not really like a state representative, oh, well, you know, it`s kind of like you`ve got to at least make as much sense as I do when I buy a car or carpeting. Like isn`t this precisely the kind of strategy that Democrats are like, yeah, just keep talking because you end up being alienated.

NEWMAN: You wonder if some of these people have ever met a woman.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, they all have daughters.

NEWMAN: Have they ever talked to one?

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah.

COVERT: Well, I think interestingly in that clip he`s kind of making his own point. We don`t regulate his decision to make a car or to buy carpeting. They`re big decisions and we don`t tell you how to make it.

But look - yeah, I think ...

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, I love that. Men could all have a 72-hour waiting period before being able to purchase a car. That ...

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

NEWMAN: Don`t make an impulse run.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, don`t make an impulse - right.

COVERT: But yeah, there`s this strategy that`s just sort of saying back and leaving them - say - the things that they are going to say, but what that does, is it ends up putting you on a defense, right? You`re always sort of playing on the extremist`s turf and it`s harder, I think, to move from that and then say, but here`s what we`re going to do proactively. Here`s our vision. Here`s the bills we want to pass that don`t just react to Todd Akin or this guy.

But they try to build the progressive utopia.

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, that`s - don`t say - I`m not that I think President Obama is trying to build a progressive utopia, but he`s gotten so increasingly progressive in his discourse around this. I want to listen to him in his weekly address which was released today talking about kind of a broad agenda for women`s policy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: House Republicans won`t vote to raise the minimum wage or extend unemployment insurance for women out of work through no fault of their own. The budget they passed this week would force deep cuts to investments that overwhelmingly benefit women and children, like Medicaid, food stamps and college grants. And, of course, they`re trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act for the 50th or so time, which would take away vital benefits and protection from millions of women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: So this is so great, right. I mean so the agenda - women`s agenda now, Medicaid, food stamps, college grants and, come on, there`s 7.1 million people now signed up for ACA.

GREER: Well, I think the real long-term damaging effects, you know, as a professor is that these bickering arguments back and forth really do turn off young voters, the young potential voters, right. So when we`re trying to actually get young people to care about not just financial aid but their own bodies and what regulations mean, all they hear are sort of ignorant comments by some, not all Republicans. And then when Obama tries to make the counterargument that, well, women need welfare or they need certain provisions from the government, then they`re just like wasn`t he supposed to provide that as the president? So there`s not a lot of context. There`s sort of these, you know, these shortcuts and these little cues and snippets and so the larger argument is somehow getting lost. And I think we`re in jeopardy, actually, of alienating a much larger group of people. Not just youth, but also people who aren`t really in the political process - in the discourse.

HARRIS-PERRY: So are we right now failing to talk to women voters like adults?

PRINS: Well, I think that`s -- by putting these side issues and wage isn`t a side issue, but by talking about these little sort of skirmishes with the Republicans and Democrats and making it politicized as opposed to about greater democracy, greater power, greater equality, these are all things that on an economic basis help drive America forward. Women, people of different race, all of us together should be part of a more equal democracy. We don`t have that. These are pieces of trying to build that. And when we have that, the times we`ve had that, even when Rosie the Riveter was doing her riveting, and if - we actually had a more equal democracy. We had more -- even though there was a wage gap between women and men, there was also a sense of building the country together and distributing power a little bit more than we`ve had in other periods of history and we have now.

HARRIS-PERRY: But then also Jim Crow, right? So ...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So, but right, right - no, but that`s all - I mean I think that`s in part always the question of when we tell a historical narrative, sort of from whose perspective do we sell it? Right? So, there`s a way in which like - I love Rosie and I love the idea of Rosie the Riveter and as you pointed out the sets of policies around workers that emerged from that new deal. But then also recognition, right, that where my grandmother is working in the 1940s is in someone`s kitchen, which does not end up getting covered under those labor policies.

When we come back, it is like deja vu all over again when it comes to courting the women`s vote. Some history may definitively and definitely be repeating itself. But first, another update on a key part of the president`s agenda, raising the minimum wage. More states are actually acting on their own. On Monday, Maryland lawmakers passed a bill to increase the state`s minimum wage to $10.10 by the year 2018. Governor Martin O`Malley is expected to sign the bill. There are some drawbacks, though, one of them being that the legislation doesn`t raise the minimum wage for tipped restaurant workers whose rate will remain at $3.63 an hour. On Thursday, Minnesota lawmakers approved a bill to gradually raise the minimum wage to $9.50 by 2016 for large businesses. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So we know that there`s a current political obsession with getting more women to the polls, but it is not new. Just check out this NBC "Nightly News" segment from October 15th, 1996, which if you were to change the hair styles just a bit seems like it could have run last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was no accident that Hillary Rodham Clinton happened to be in Tucson, Arizona, today.

HILLARY CLINTON: Thank you very much. And ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Solidly Republican Arizona is suddenly winnable for Democrats who worked hard to exploit the gender gap.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arizona Republican women for Clinton/Gore.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Targeting women voters in ads and through 5500 faxes sent each month to influential women around the country, they have turned lifelong Republicans like Teddy Langafi (ph) into Bill Clinton activists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, send those faxes out to get people to the polls. So, you know, we`ve been thinking a lot as we`re going into the midterms, going into the next presidential election about the idea of a woman candidate at the top of either the Democratic or the Republican ticket as a way of attracting women. But if we go back to kind of the question of the economic fairness for women workers, it seems to me that part of your argument is whether you`re Democrat or Republican, woman or male candidate, you are really in the pockets of big business in ways that might make it tough for identity politics to translate into leftist policy.

PRINS: Exactly. It`s a good conversation and useful, but the fact is that relationship, the symbiotic relationships between anyone who sits in the Oval Office, anyone who is appointed, not elected as Treasury Secretary and the people that run the most profitable corporations and the banks in this country are really dictating a lot of the policy. And because they are so similar, because they have the wealth behind them, because they require each other`s wealth and power to stay in their positions or to attain those positions, the policy itself gets dictated through those alignments. And so these - we`re trying to chip away with the other issues on the outside of what`s a very central core of alive power between corporations and people in the White House.

HARRIS-PERRY: So one can be happy to have Yellen, for example, in the Fed position, but her being a woman does not necessarily lead to different monetary policy.

PRINS: Exactly right. She`s doing exactly what Ben Bernanke did and she has no choice. And anyone in that position whether they are a woman or a man would be doing the same thing, which is subsidizing the banking system at the expense of the greater and broader populations.

NEWMAN: We have - Something is really important here. I mean there has been a shift in the balance of power in the economy away from employees and workers to employers, and especially big employers. It`s not hopeless for workers, but really important to know is we`re talking about, you know, policies that will improve things. The thing that will improve people`s position, men and women both, is more skills, the skills that matter. This is just crucially important today. You know, just saying can you please pay me a little bit more isn`t getting anywhere for men or women alike. What gets you somewhere say I have some new skill that`s going to help the company. Here`s what I can contribute. I`m going to make a better contribution. This is how -- this is how people get ahead these days. It`s really important to keep in mind.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, interestingly - it`s interesting, because in part like immediately you start thinking about different kinds of work that are related there, so there`s a way in which if you are the Walmart greeter or the McDonald`s cashier, and we know this - I know we think these are teenagers, these are not, right, these are adult workers. We want new skill do you bring - so, if you`re in that part of the labor market, you`re kind of stuck in this minimum wage space. But if you`re in another part of the labor market, it actually might be a fine time to be able to negotiate because there are lower numbers of high skilled workers, right, compared to the jobs that are available.

NEWMAN: It depends where you are geographically. And it depends what industry you`re in, but everybody can get more skills. I mean you don`t have to go to college and spend $200,000 to get more skills. There are things people can do. The community colleges, you can find programs that are where - community colleges will align with businesses because businesses need such and such a worker so they`ll help programs. I mean you have to do a lot of research. It`s not going to land in your lap. But that is the way the economy is these days.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, but I wonder about that, Bryce, in part, because, you know, so I don`t want to move away from this idea that part of the responsibility for individuals to invest in themselves, but it`s also an investment in the sort of broader perspective to have a good workforce. Should there be government -- part of what the president said was college loans, and he doesn`t mean just, you know, come to Wake Forest University and get a B.A., he does mean making available community colleges.

COVERT: Well, I want to point out that when we`re talking about skills, even among high-skilled jobs, the ones that are dominated by women are paid about $470 less a week than the ones dominated by men. So we are still talking about are we valuing the high skill jobs that women can get and tend to get. But of course, I mean I think we want to help women move into stem fields, for example. They`re in high demand, they`re incredibly important skills and we see women are less represented there. And we also see not only a smaller pipeline, but it dribbles out. Women do not stick with it and I think it`s because it conflicts with family, there`s a lot of discrimination. There`s a lot of stuff that works against them.

HARRIS-PERRY: We can spend all day on the stem thing. Because on the one hand, yes, more women in stem but also why should stem be the only ones - like this goes back to your point of valuing what kinds of labor.

After the break, the state passing legislation to make criminals out of mothers. My letter of the week is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: This week the Tennessee state legislature passed a bill that would allow drug addicted pregnant women to be prosecuted as criminals. Now, the bill would permit a woman who used illegal drugs during pregnancy to be charged with assault if her child is born addicted to or harmed by the drug. And to be charged with homicide if the child dies. It would also allow women to avoid those charges if they volunteer for drug treatment. But before Tennessee`s governor makes it official with his signature, I wanted to urge him to consider that this proposed solution may only exacerbate the problem that his state is trying to solve.

Dear Governor Bill Haslam, it`s me, Melissa. Now, I understand the magnitude of the crisis facing your state and how daunting it must feel. Last year a report found that in Tennessee babies born addicted to opiate drugs that their mothers took during pregnancy was higher than ever before. But governor, as you think about what you`re going to do with that bill that`s on your desk, please take a moment to consider that punishment is no substitute for protection. Particularly when the threat of that punishment could put the health and well-being of vulnerable people, both the babies and their mothers, at even greater risk.

As you have already no doubt heard from the national medical groups that have weighed in on this bill, this proposal could have the exact opposite effect of its intent of improving health outcomes for babies of drug-addicted mothers. According to a statement released by the American Medical Association, pregnant women will be likely to avoid seeking prenatal or open medical care for fear that their physician`s knowledge of substance abuse or other potentially harmful behavior could result in a jail sentence rather than proper medical treatment.

So, governor, any government intervention to address drug dependency among pregnant women and their children must treat that addiction like what it is, a disease. And helping mothers to battle their disease requires a treatment-based approach that must first do no harm by ensuring they`re not deterred from prenatal care. That could reduce the effects of addiction on their babies. Besides, even as a law enforcement measure this bill is remarkably short-sighted because it targets only those women who use illegal drugs during their pregnancy. Yes, it is true that 30 percent of mothers of drug dependent babies born in Tennessee used illegal drugs specified by the bill, but it is also true that 42 percent of mothers of babies used legal drugs prescribed to them by a doctor for legitimate treatment. And another 20 percent actually used both.

So not only would your law criminalize only certain types of drug abusers, it would also completely overlook the primary driver of the epidemic of drug-addicted babies in your state. What`s more, you already have evidence that criminalizing drug-addicted mothers simply doesn`t work. For years Tennessee was already allowing women to be charged if their newborns tested positive for drugs, but over the last decade there was a ten-fold increase in babies in your state born addicted to opiates. Governor, here`s the good news. You need not look for an alternate policy approach for your state.

After all, the very same state legislature that proposed the bill you are currently considering are ready task, a safe harbor law last year that gave mothers addicted to prescription drugs priority in line for treatment programs and also assured them that they would not lose custody of their children if they disclosed their drug use. So, here`s - Why not instead of sign a law that would expand that intervention to include protection for all mothers battling addictions during their pregnancy. I think that would be just a much better use of your pen. Sincerely, Melissa.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: We are now in the final stretch of tax season, so maybe you`ve been seeing commercials like this.

(BV(

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been (POUNDING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been waiting on my check. You need to do something about this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want my stuff back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard there was a company out there that could get your check in 30 seconds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: That is a commercial from a few years back for the tax preparation company "More Money Taxes, formerly out of Memphis, advertising a refund check in just 30 seconds. If that sounds a little sketchy to you, well, it was. Last year the Justice Department filed a lawsuit to shut the company down, alleging that employees there prepare fraudulent returns that cause their customers to incorrectly report their federal tax liabilities and underpay their taxes and charge customers bogus and unconscionably high fees. Unfortunately, according to advocates, what "More Money Taxes" was up to is not uncommon. More than half of all tax preparers for this tax season are not subject to any kind of licensing or training regulations. They just have to register for an identification number. And the ease of getting into the business combined with the more than $300 billion in anticipated tax refund money has made tax preparation ripe for predatory practices that target low income communities, especially individuals who qualify for the earned income tax credit.

Joining me now to explain why this happens and what we can do about it is Stephen Black, Director of the Center for Ethics and Social Responsibility at the University of Alabama. He`s also the founder and president of Impact Alabama, which trains students to provide free tax preparation services for low income families. Good morning, Stephen.

STEPHEN BLACK, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

HARRIS-PERRY: Absolutely. So start with the earned income tax credit. Explain why that is such an issue in this predatory practice.

BLACK: Well, that`s the basis for the entire industry. Something that a lot of people don`t appreciate. The earned income tax credit is the single largest federal anti-poverty program. And I think it really doesn`t get that much attention and press because it`s one of those rare initiatives, probably the singular substantive federal tax initiative policy that enjoys bipartisan support. President Reagan was a big supporter, President Clinton grew it. It`s a refundable credit to families. I think it`s not controversial to say, sort of welfare reform because it leaves the debate about welfare to the side. You only qualify for it if you`re working and most of it goes to working parents raising adults. It`s a huge amount of money that pours into low income communities in about an eight-week period in the last part of January through March all over the country. The challenge is between 65 and 70 percent of these families feel as though they need professional help. They`re intimidated by the IRS, they don`t want to mess up, they don`t want to get it wrong and they don`t have access to CPAs, to accountants the way upper income families do because CPAs are not in the business of doing very simple returns where you don`t even itemize the return.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. And so when you say professional, though, I mean this is a pretty elastic term of professional, right? We were just looking that for tax practitioners who are subject to the Treasury standards, about 308,000 of them who are doing taxes. But when it comes to these folks who are these unenrolled preparers, folks who just need to get an I.D., there`s actually more of them. So they`re professional only to the extent that you have to pay them to do it?

BLACK: This is the majority of tax preparation around the country that serves working class Americans, working paycheck to paycheck. It`s literally like the Wild West. And people use the word regulation and commercial tax preparers say, well, this is going to be bad for our business. It`s going to - it literally will not be. Regulation really isn`t the best word. The best word is just basic licensing and training the way if you want to open a hair salon in any state in the country, you have to pass a test and get a license. If you want to do nails, you have to pass a test and get a license. If you want to prepare taxes for families charging them on average $300 for about 30 minutes of work that`s not very difficult, signing the most important document they sign all year, there`s no training requirement, there`s no licensing. It`s literally the Wild West in every state other than four.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. So you`re talking about $300 and $400 fees for a half an hour worth of work. That`s a $600 to $800 an hour level. I mean even sort of high level CPAs typically don`t charge that.

BLACK: That`s absolutely right. You can talk to the National Association of Certified Accountants. The average $100,000 a year family, which is not the average family, but the average $100,000 a year family pays between $150 and $200 to have their taxes done with itemization from a trained certified accountant. The average single mother working at Walmart making $19,000 a year raising two kids, goes into one of these places with a W-2, no itemization and will come out $300. $300 is a lot of money for me to waste in 30 minutes.

(LAUGHTER)

BLACK: But if you`re making $18,000 a year raising children, it`s painful and it`s really abusive.

HARRIS-PERRY: I couldn`t help but notice that the "More Money" commercial also had a particular sort of veilance to it that felt like there are some communities being particularly targeted here.

BLACK: Oh, absolutely, there`s no question. And a lot of them will be very clear about it. And liberty tax is another one. I think H&R block is the most legitimate, and they in fact are not against additional training requirements because they do train their staff more. Sometimes I think they get a little too expensive, but that`s my opinion. But the other mom and pop operations and the chains that have kind of sprung from the H&R block model, who specifically prey on low income communities, and a lot of them just African-American communities, they open up in strip malls next to payday lenders and title pawn shops and literally, they`re not even there by the end of April.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah.

BLACK: You can`t find them. A lot of times they don`t even sign the returns for the people.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, they just - they pop up and then they`re gone. We really wanted to get that information out. Stephen Black in San Jose, thank you so much for joining us.

BLACK: Thank you for having me.

HARRIS-PERRY: Absolutely.

Also here in New York thank you to Bryce Covert, Rick Newman and Nomi Prins. Now, Christina is going to stick around a little bit. Maybe she`ll say intersectional again.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS-PERRY: Coming up to President Obama on the legacy of LBJ and the limits of presidential power. Does he still believe that yes we can? There`s going to be more "Nerdland" at the top of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Back, I`m Melissa Harris-Perry.

On Thursday, it seemed as if we were going to be treated to some vintage Obama. The president addressed the civil rights forum in Austin, Texas, honoring the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act signed by President Lyndon Johnson.

And the president wraps buoyed by the 7.1 million enrollees in Obamacare was in classic Obama rhetorical form. He started with the self deprecating humor in which he reminds us that whatever criticism we have in the press or public, the first lady has likely already expressed them in the residence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Michelle was in particular interested of a recording in which Lady Bird is critiquing President Johnson`s performance. And she said come, come, you need to listen to this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: He also gave us some of that delicious Professor Obama affect too, as he offered a compelling history lesson about Johnson`s first legislative priorities after unexpectedly assuming the presidency.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: He wanted to call on senators and representatives to pass a civil rights bill. In one particularly bold aide said he did not believe a president should spend his time and power on lost causes, however worthy they might be. To which it is said, President Johnson replied, well, what the hell`s the presidency for?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Then, the next key ingredient in the Obama formula, when the president makes his trademark turn from a specific story, Lyndon Johnson`s in this case, to a broader theory of democracy and government by the people. It`s always my favorite part because no other president has so eloquently and routinely included social movements in his telling of the American story.

Here, President Obama reminds us that LBJ could act only because he was compelled to act by the people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We recall the countless unheralded Americans, black and white, students and scholars, preachers, and housekeepers, whose names are etched not on monuments but in the hearts of their loved ones and in the fabric of the country that they helped to change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: OK. So, at this point, close followers of the president`s speeches know what is coming, right? It`s what follows the mention of the elderly Anna Nixon Cooper who cast her vote on election vote. It`s what followed the invocation of Seneca Falls and Selma and Stonewall at the second inauguration. Come on, you know what is next, Nerdland -- yes, we can. Right?

It`s the moment the president assures us of the ability of the American people to change ourselves, our nation, our world, as we bend that arc of history toward justice -- and here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Those of us who have had the singular privilege to hold the office of the presidency know well that progress in this country can be hard and it can be slow. Frustrating, and sometimes you`re stymied. The office humbles you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Wait a minute, what? This is the "yes, we can" part, Mr. President. Your giving me slow and frustrating and stymied and humbling? OK, OK, maybe it`s up next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: You`re reminded daily that in this great democracy, you are but a relay swimmer in the currents of history, bound by decisions made by those who came before, reliant on the efforts of those who will follow to fully vindicate your vision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: A relay swimmer? OK, I`m going to need to hit pause here because our president has changed the ending on us in a very interesting way. Facing the last midterm election of his presidency with no other election in his personal future, our soaring optimist is turning a more jaundiced eye on the American project.

Now, he is still firmly an American exceptionalist who insists on a fundamentally optimistic view of the American project, but as he discussed LBJ`s legislative legacy, it was easy to sense that he was distressed that his own legacy would not contain these sorts of civil rights achievements, not because he didn`t want them, but because he faced a 112th, 113th and likely a 114th Congress far more intransient than anything even the master of the Senate, Johnson himself, could have imagined.

And so the president left us on Thursday with hope, always with hope, but maybe a more tempered hope and one that leaves us not declaring "yes, we can", but asking, can we still?

At the table, Amy Goodman, the host and executive producer of "Democracy Now." Raul Reyes, a columnist at "USA Today", Christina Greer, who is assistant professor of political science at Fordham University, and Juan -- I`m sorry, they spelled it very strange (ph) in there-- Cartagena, who is president and general counsel of Latino Justice. Sometimes the pronouncers are actually harder for me.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRY-PERRY: You know, they do like this highlight reel of me destroying everyone`s name.

But I actually want to start with you because if we are, as the president suggested here, swimming in a relay, are we winning in terms of achieving that more perfected union?

JUAN CARTAGENA, LATINO JUSTICE: Well, we`ve got a lot of work to do, obviously. I think the issues that are concerning the civil rights movement in general have to take into account everything that`s happening on the immigration front. Incredible challenges that we have in ensuring that Latinos are also receiving equal treatment under the law.

If it is a relay race, then the next person grabbing this baton better pay attention to this issue. That is premiere civil rights issue as we`re going forward.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, I like that you immediately started to expand the definition of civil rights. Raul, I want to come to you in part on this because I think if we think about civil rights exclusively about African-American politics, then the president has a strong, but certainly not an LBJ level record, right, on this. But if we think about civil rights more broadly, particularly around LGBT issues, this presidency, the years of this presidency will be remembered as expansive.

RAUL REYES, USA TODAY: Right.

HARRIS-PERRY: On the creation -- not solely because of policies he himself passed, but a new environment which he helps to create. And I wonder if when you`re an elected official, you have to not be a member of the group for which you are expanding the rights. Like being the southern white gentleman helps LBJ to do race rights and being the straight black president helps President Obama to expand LGBT civil rights.

REYES: Maybe. I mean my impression of the speech, I came away from watching it that it was so realistic in the sense that he made references -- he talked about history moving backwards, which the first thing I thought about was the Shelby County decision. He also mentioned very pragmatically, he said that passing laws is only the first step, which is a nod to the circumstance.

You know, in LBJ`s time, we had bigotry and discrimination and racism that was codified into law so the policy fight was very easy from a progressive standpoint of good versus bad. Now, we still have all of those issues, but they`re in a much more subtle way. So, it`s a harder fight. It`s a tougher lift for him to move ahead.

And maybe -- I see what you`re saying. Maybe sometimes when you`re not at the center of those issues, maybe it is a little easier as a leader, as a lawmaker to see the calculus and to move on that.

HARRIS-PERRY: Amy, I sort of like this President Obama rhetorically better. I love -- I loved the yes, we can, especially for campaigning, like I said that as a strategy. But I appreciate that he tempered the sort of performance of hope that he often does by suggesting, man, this is hard and we may not be making much progress right now.

AMY GOODMAN, DEMOCRACY NOW: Well, I think the key word there is "we", because with this whole looking back 50 years to LBJ, I think the critical point is you have to go beyond LBJ as even Obama referenced to the movements. It wasn`t LBJ that did this. It was the movements that forced him to. The minute he`s signing the civil rights act in July, you have John Lewis, now the congressman, then a leading civil rights activist once again protesting with Diane Nash and the other remarkable people fighting already for the Voting Rights Act that would come the next year.

And right now, with President Obama, it`s not really about what he`s going to do. It is about what people are going to push him to do.

And I think clearly right now, the movement that is pushing the hardest, that is the most organized, is the immigrants` rights movement. And the question is not so much what is Obama going to do but what are people demanding.

CHRISTINA GREER, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Well, I always look at the Civil Rights Act and voting rights act and the immigration act -- I can see him moving into this. We saw George Bush do this in 2006 when he started to break away from Cheney. You start to think about your legacy.

But I think as a Democratic president, Obama is also looking at the big picture, right? So, we know there`s FDR and the New Deal. There`s LBJ and the Great Society. And there`s nothing really with Clinton.

GREER: So these are the things that as a Democratic president we can`t really hang our hats on, right? We`ve got Monica, we`ve got welfare, we`ve got prisons and we got NAFTA/KAFTA and ignorance on Rwanda, right?

So, if Obama is trying to have a an FDR, an LBJ and BHL movement, sort of as a Democratic president, this idea of Obamacare, this idea of immigration reform really needs to happen. But I really wonder if he`s sort of fallen into the George Bush trap, which is you`re obviously going to really start about immigration reform essentially your last two years in office. And, it`s too little too late.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, you know, one of the things I like about the way that you set up this notion of the Democratic president, we have this incredible piece of Adam Serwer did for the MSNBC where he is trying to rethink Johnson. I just want to read this. It`s kind of long but let me read from the piece here.

"Perhaps the simple explanation which Johnson likely understood better than most was there is no magic formula to which people can emancipate themselves from prejudice, no finish line that when crossed awards a person`s sole with a shining medal of purity in matters of race. All we can offer is a commitment to justice in word and deed that must be honored but from which we will all occasionally fall short. Maybe when Johnson said it`s not just Negroes but all of us who must overcome the crippling legacy of bigotry, he really meant all of us, including himself," right?

So, this suggests that that same tempered notion that President Obama was giving us, when we look back at LBJ, we see these great legislative accomplishments, but it is always still just partial. It`s never fully there.

CARTAGENA: Definitely. That`s the matter of legislation. You can only take it to a certain point. Behavior has to change, and that behavior has changed in many, many ways.

I mean, Obama symbolizes so many things of the civil rights movement. Now the question is for us in this diverse country that we now live in, given all the challenges we currently have, how do we translate those promises into today`s realities.

HARRIS-PERRY: And one way that we might be able to do it would be through the vote, which of course we know is at the moment being challenged. So when we come back, President Obama minces absolutely no words in his Friday speech that drilled the GOP.

But, seriously, you must go read Adam Serwer`s piece up right now on MSNBC.com entitled "Lyndon Johnson was a civil rights hero but also a racist."

This morning, if you read this one thing, you will have done something good for your brain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYNDON B. JOHNSON, FORMER PRESIDENT: This Civil Rights Act is a challenge to all of us, to go to work in our communities and in our states, in our homes and in our hearts, to eliminate the last vestiges of injustice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: So let`s be clear, the real voter fraud is people who try to deny our rights by making bogus arguments about voter fraud. And I`d just say, there have been some of these officials passing these laws have been more blunt. They say this is going to be good for the Republican Party. Some of them have not been shy about saying that they`re doing this for partisan reasons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: That was President Obama yesterday giving the keynote address at Reverend Al Sharpton`s National Action Network`s Annual Conference. Reverend Sharpton, of course, also hosts the program "POLITICS NATION" right here on MSNBC.

And I have to say, when I saw the president, I thought he`s got Ludacris back on his play list because he had a certain -- I mean, have you ever seen him not mincing words about voting rights in this way?

GOODMAN: It was so important what he said -- 147 million votes cast, 40 people were indicted for fraud. We`re talking about a nonexistent issue.

But what is extreme problem because there is an extreme problem is that people are losing their right to vote. What people got their heads bashed in for 50 years ago, right now, they`re cutting -- what is the justification for saying we`ll give less time for people to vote, especially for working people. I mean, when you go in the morning to vote, if you don`t get there at 6:00 and you work all day and you have to go back to where it is that you live, you`re not going to be able to live. What can justify, I don`t care, Democrat or Republican, cutting back on people`s ability to get to the polls.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. As you point out, that in no way would address voter fraud. Like having a shorter number of hours to cast one`s vote would have no impact on someone -- like we expect fraudulent people to show up more at noon than 6:00 a.m.

REYES: The great lie of all this -- when you do talk about voter fraud, these voter ID requirements that they`re passing, these other pieces of restrictive legislation, that wouldn`t impact it anyway because most of that tends to occur when it does at very instances, like through mail-in votes. It does --

CARTAGENA: Absentee ballots.

REYES: Right, absentee ballots. But I just think it`s so important that the president was up there calling it out for what it is. And, you know, so much of the time when we talk about civil rights legislation, the Voting Rights Act, it`s often in the sense of black and white. But as we go forward in the future, the reason that -- the damage that Shelby County decision is particularly damaging for the Latino community is the greatest growth of the Latino population is throughout the South and Southeast, the states that no longer have the preclearance.

So, it`s not just going to be an issue for African-American voters, it`s going to be increasingly an issue for the Latino community.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, the politics of this are important. I mean, Christina, I want to look at sort of the president`s approval ratings by race over time. And you see that, you know, he starts particularly with African-American and Hispanic voters sort of way up, again, particularly with African-American voters. You see it declines a little bit from 100 to 75.

But the important little blip I want you to see for both Hispanic and African-American voters is in 2012, it kind of ticks back up. And it seems to me that part of the reason, Christina, that happens is because that is when kind of the discourse about the attacks on voting become very clear. It becomes not just a referendum on President Obama but a referendum on whether or not we all have the right to vote. You see that uptick.

And I wonder if in part his like courage and forth rightness which may in part be sincere is also political, is also about saying this is the thing that really gets people to understand why they have to show up and vote.

GREER: Right. And this is the thing that will hopefully get people to show up and vote in 2014, right?

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, `tis the problem of midterms.

GREER: And I think we also just have to ask ourselves, where are the Democrats on this larger conversation, right? We have the president versus the Republican Party. But, you know, not to throw water on the parade -- they`re in there.

But let`s clear -- but there are many Democrats on local and state levels who actually it behooves them not to have more people in the voting process, right? They`re not as actively out there diminishing the vote the way certain Republican legislators are, but the Democrats know their base, they know who turns out. And especially if you`re in a district where it`s a Democratic district and you really only have to worry about your primary, not your general. You`re actually not that interested in bringing new voters in. They`ll likely be Democrats if they`re Latino, depending on where you are, but they could go for some one else.

So I`m just bringing up the point that Democrats, if you`re interested in moving this conversation forward, you need to do a lot more and not just put it on the Republicans to say, well, they`re the ones trying to limit the vote.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. This for me is -- we`re going to spend an hour on this tomorrow because this is a central issue, but hearing the president just refuse to -- I mean, for him to frame it as a partisan issue, for him to frame it standings there at National Action Network, but let me ask one thing about this. As much as it was exciting, would LBJ have been invited to speak at SCLC? Is there a capture of the movements that are meant to be pressing presidents and lawmakers when the presidents and lawmakers are president -- does that make sense?

CARTAGENA: It does. But thank God if President Johnson had at LBJ, the exposing we`re giving this particular audience, this particular topic yesterday is enormous and well-deserved. I mean, yes, he was pumped up, look at the audience. Pumped up, look who introduced him.

But he`s speaking clearly what everyone already knows. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. The 2012 election was a clear indication that this was done for clearly partisan reasons. Everyone knows it.

The hard -- I`ve worked on voting cases for 30 plus years. You piss somebody off when you tell them they can`t vote. They`ll go back to their house, get their ID and bring back their cousins and everybody can stand in line. This wonderful picture of people standing in line just trying to exercise that right because they can see it for what it is.

GOODMAN: I think the Republicans understand that, that 2012 there was a lot of anger and also it goes to what media pays attention to. And when people get angry, they`re going to do something about it. So, short term they may win somewhere, but long term I think Democrats and I think it`s a key point you`re making, incumbents, even Democratic incumbents don`t want to expand it, they want to keep who voted them in.

HARRIS-PERRY: And long term that structural piece -- yes, it`s good to rev people up, but you want to talk about who`s dealing with structures.

Up next, the essential civil rights player in the Obama administration who also has been listening to Ludacris lately. He`s getting louder and clearer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I`m pleased to note the last five years have been defined by significant strides and lasting reforms, even in the face, even in the face of unprecedented, unwarranted, ugly and divisive adversity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLDER: And we`re bolstering our across-the-board civil rights enforcement efforts to ensure that our work is as strong and as effective today as ever before. Over the past three years, the department`s civil rights division has filed more criminal civil rights cases than during any other period in its history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: That was Attorney General Eric Holder speaking at the National Action Network`s annual convention on Wednesday.

And while President Obama has not had the major legislative achievements like LBJ`s Civil Rights Act, here`s what he has done. President Obama appointed an attorney general who has aggressively enforced existing civil rights law and has made strides to correct past errors. Those accomplishments include endorsing a proposal to shorten prison sentences for many nonviolent drug offenders that would change the face of the criminal justice system as we know it.

He sued both Texas and North Carolina to block voter ID laws that would make it more difficult for minorities to vote, and he has issued a directive expanding government recognition of same-sex marriages to all federal courtrooms, prisons and some federal benefits programs just to name a few of things he`s been up to.

So while we may not appreciate the accomplishments of this administration until, say, a decade hence, that`s because so much of the civil rights work is happening in the Department of Justice. I kept asking myself, is Eric Holder the Obama that we had been hoping for? Like, right, there`s a way in which -- but of course he works for President Obama. I mean, you can`t -- I think it`s not really fair to separate them. But he is like, yes, I sue you and you and how about you don`t put them in jail and you get to vote. Like he`s very -- he`s doing that work.

GREER: I think he may be the greatest addition to the entire Obama administration, and I think in the long term the work that he is doing now, the foundational work that he`s doing will actually pay off in dividends and actually help Obama`s legacy, right, because we know right now on immigration reform or deportations which we`ll talk about later, many people have been disappointed in this president.

But I think Eric Holder with the appointments that he`s made for individuals beneath him, U.S. attorneys across the country, sort of younger, more diverse people, the issues that he`s raising and fighting for, I think, you know, especially with the courts, plural, that we have and the lack of judges that sort of aren`t in positions that are filled because of Republican holdouts and the Supreme Court and they`re leaning to the right consistently, I think the fights that he`s starting we`ll see pay off in hopefully five, ten, 15 years.

HARRIS-PERRY: You said one thing I don`t want to miss which is about the other attorneys in the DOJ. We may not as a public recognize it but those who don`t want to see these policy reenacted absolutely recognize it.

And what happened with Debo and the blocking of that really incredible civil rights advocate to one the civil rights division of the Department of Justice was -- I mean, it`s almost like as soon as I see somebody fighting, I go, oh, wait a minute, that must be something interesting that`s happening there.

GOODMAN: I mean, what`s important here though is that it was the Democrats who ultimately blocked him. This was -- yes, of course, the Republicans were opposing him but it was the Democrats who joined with them in the Senate when they didn`t even need 60 votes. They just took him down and that really goes to this bigger point about where the Democrats are today, that it`s not just about President Obama or Eric Holder and also very interesting to hear the attorney general saying that he alone as an attorney general today, no other attorney general has been treated by Congress like he has been treated, going to the issue of race.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, actually I want to listen to him in this interaction with Gohmert earlier this week because it was one of those moment you get a sense of how ugly the treatment has been.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: I realize that contempt is not a big deal to our attorney general, but it is important that we have proper oversight.

HOLDER: You should not assume that that is not a big deal to me. I think that it was inappropriate. I think it was unjust. But never think that that was not a big deal to me. Don`t ever think that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Man, I was standing on the side, yeah. You don`t -- you don`t want to go there.

CARTAGENA: Right.

HARRIS-PERRY: That was kind of a lovely moment.

REYES: Yes. And I was so glad that you showed the earlier clip of Holder saying that no one else has been treated as he was, which I was a little surprised that he went there. But when I see Eric Holder now, I just think back to when Alberto Gonzalez was attorney general.

Now, he presided over the DOJ when it was totally politicized. Partisanship was pretty much a requirement to get into the DOJ at that time, there was all these different scandals. And yet, during that time, Democrats held back at going after him because there was that sense that, well, he`s the first Latino attorney general and that would look bad.

And yet, now, with Attorney General Eric Holder, if anything, it seems as though Republicans are emboldened to go after Attorney General Holder as an African-American, that gives them this free rein for this -- really, he`s right -- unparalleled disrespect that he is enduring in this office.

HARRIS-PERRY: And it could be about him being African-American, I think there`s a hypothesis that`s at the table. I think the other possibility is that it could be about how aggressively he and effectively he is at the core of implementing this.

When we come back, I`m going to come to the issue you tried to take us to on the very first question, which is immigration and the extent to which civil rights as a central issue of our day right now is about immigration.

We`re going to ask this question, why is there a hunger strike in fronting of the White House right now?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Half a century later, the law`s LBJ passed are now as fundamental to our conception of ourselves and our democracy as the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. They are foundational, an essential piece of the American character.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: When President Obama was at the civil rights summit on Thursday praised Lyndon Baines Johnson`s signature accomplishment, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, he also touted what came after it, the Voting Rights Act, Fair Housing act and immigration reform. That last one, immigration reform, is something that President Obama has also placed high on his agenda, but it`s something he hasn`t been able to accomplish despite bipartisan legislation passed by the Senate and calls for immigration reform by prominent Republicans like Jeb Bush.

And in the meantime, President Obama has continued the trend set by another Bush, President George W. Bush, with his administration`s aggressive detention and deportation of unauthorized immigrants from the United States since he took office in 2009. According to Vox.com last year, undocumented immigrant removal occurred at a pace of 1,010 persons per day. If the deportations continued at the pace here, that means that the 2 millionth deportation likely happened sometime in the middle of last month.

In the last seven days, new pressure has been applied to the president to bypass congress and use his executive power to stop or at least slow deportations and detentions. There was last Saturday`s day of action during which protesters rallied across the country. The president spoke in Austin on Thursday. Some immigration reform activists chained themselves to a statue of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on the University of Texas campus. At least three people were arrested.

And the cry for the president to take executive action is being issued right in front of his own house. Three people have staged a hunger strike since Tuesday in front of the White House, demanding their loved ones be released from immigration detention. One of the activists, 18-year-old Cynthia Diaz, is taking time away from her studies at the University of Arizona to protest the detention of her mother, Ria del Rosario Rodriguez who has been in detention since March.

Cynthia joins us now from Washington.

Nice to have you.

CYNTHIA DIAZ, HUNGER STRIKE ACTIVIST: Hi. Thank you for having me.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, Cynthia, you are currently right now hunger striking, is that right?

DIAZ: Yes, that`s right. This is my fifth day.

HARRIS-PERRY: So tell me why. Why are you hunger striking?

DIAZ: I am doing this hunger strike for my mom. She was unfairly deported on May, 2011. When ICE raided our home, it was a Saturday morning. I was 15 at the time, and I have a younger brother who was 13. I was woken up by my dad`s screaming out, Cynthia, they`re taking your mom.

And I was confused because I didn`t know what that meant so I went to my front yard and there I saw ten ICE officers all over my front yard and I saw my mom being handcuffed and pushed into a van. And then the door shut and we were really confused. My brother heard everything but he didn`t leave his room because he didn`t want to see what was happening.

That was really traumatizing for me because, like I said before, I was only 15 at the time.

HARRIS-PERRY: When you talk about being confused, were you aware of your mother`s status as an unauthorized immigrant?

DIAZ: No, I didn`t know. I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona. I have a brother and my dad who are U.S. residents, but I didn`t know until they took my mom that, you know, she was undocumented.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, you`re an American citizen. You have U.S. permanent re residents in your family. How -- and yet you have not eaten in days because you are trying to get your president and your government to let your mom out of detention.

This is a trite question but sort of -- how are you feeling both physically and politically at this moment?

DIAZ: This morning, I woke up a little sore, so that means my body is reacting to the lack of food. And I`ve been -- it`s been tough. This is my first hunger strike. I haven`t eaten in five days.

But I`m still, you know, trying to stay strong and push forward and try to call out President Obama because we are in his front yard.

HARRIS-PERRY: Cynthia, stay with us, don`t go away.

But I don`t want to come out to the table here. When you asked us to come to this issue from the beginning, and part of why we wanted Cynthia`s voice here is so often when we talk about immigration reform, it`s like -- it`s like this big theory up here. This is about families and moms and dads and children and --

CARTAGENA: It`s about mixed status families. For every unauthorized immigrant in a family household, you`ll have citizens, you`ll have lawful permanent residents. What happened here with this young woman`s family was aggressive, outrageous, unconstitutional actions probably by ICE and home raids.

We should know. My office sued ICE and got a major settlement out of ICE to actually apply the Fourth Amendment doing home raids. What a marvel, incredible application of the Constitution. ICE has been doing this forever.

And now, to see this young woman talk about this in this way, I am so happy you put them on the air. We have to continue to talk about people like this were destroyed by these policies.

GOODMAN: "The New York Times" just did this great expose that here, you have President Obama saying, we`re going after the criminals, we`re going after the gang bangers, it`s not like we`re going after the students and the grandmothers.

But the fact is --

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes.

GOODMAN: -- two-thirds of the people who are being deported, and we`ve hit this unbelievable 2 million deportation mark just within President Obama`s administration, two-thirds of them are either involved with minor criminal offenses like they ran a red light, a traffic violation, or no criminal offense at all.

HARRIS-PERRY: The only criminal offense is the status offense, is the undocumentation.

REYES: Just for the record, we also hear a lot about detention. You know, detention is prison. When you`re in detention, you don`t get due process, you often don`t get a chance to make a phone call. You are separated physically. You might be in a different state. Many of those detention centers are privately run. So, there`s no accountability, no transparency so in many ways it`s worse than prison. In this country, we have people in our prison system who are convicted murderers and rapists who are treated better than moms and dads who are in detention. So, just be clear, detention is prison.

HARRIS-PERRY: Cynthia, let me come back to you for a moment. Have you had a chance to talk with your mother, and where is her case right now?

DIAZ: Yes, I talked to her last night. Right now she`s in San Luis, Arizona. She is in a private detention center. She does tell me that it`s really cold there, the beds are really uncomfortable. The food is not pleasant at all.

HARRIS-PERRY: Cynthia Diaz in Washington, D.C., I want to say two things. As someone who thinks of myself as committed to questions of activism, I am incredibly proud of you for taking action, for being an activist on this question.

As a mom and my bet is, although I have not spoken to your mom, but just as a mom, at some point, I want to ensure that you are also caring for yourself. I am so proud of you for hunger striking here, but I also, I just want to make my mom appeal that at some point, please continue to care for yourself as you work to liberate your mother, please.

DIAZ: That`s what I`m doing, thank you.

HARRIS-PERRY: Thank you to Cynthia Diaz in Washington, D.C.

Up next, Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi says race is the reason for immigration reform being stalled.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: We are still waiting and waiting and waiting for Washington to do something about immigration reform, all to no avail. And there are those who feel that race is one of the reasons why.

One of those people, it seems, is House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi who said this at her press briefing on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: I think race has something to do with the fact that they`re not bringing up an immigration bill. I`ve heard them say to the Irish, if it were just you, this would be easy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, so that wasn`t mincing words. The whole Obama administration and the Democrats, that leadership, that notion of race being part of it, and I think we talk an awful lot about Latino immigration but also about black immigration from the African diaspora.

But the idea that immigrants are these racial others.

GREER: Right. I said this when I was on the show a few weeks ago. The face of immigration is a Latino face, right, and that sort of when many people Americans think about immigration as an idea, it`s just Mexico, right?

We have to also be very clear, there`s loads of undocumented immigrants from Canada who are here and we know that there`s lots of immigration from people all over the world. I particularly work on Caribbean and Africa, but, you know, Asia, South America, wherever.

So I think it`s really problematic the way the entire immigration debate has been framed because it turns into a Latino versus America problem. But I think the fact that Nancy Pelosi, and maybe it is because it`s a midterm election year and we know that many people see it as an off year in the sense that they don`t have to turn out, this may actually mobilize and motivate certain Democratic individuals to actually come out, so we`ll see.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, here you have the politics of it happening up here strategically but in terms of the policy, is there anything the president can unilaterally do? Here`s a young woman who is not eating because she needs the president to do something.

REYES: There`s quite a number of things the president can do using his executive authority. He could end the secure communities program, which is a very controversial program which is basically a pipeline into detention. He could end the 287-G program which is pretty much deputizes all these local law enforcement officers with no immigration training and makes them ICE agents. He could also expand the number of people who are eligible for deferred action.

Now, he can`t do it for everybody, and granted none of these measures would be permanent. He cannot give anybody citizenship. But there are things he can do. And, you know, the number 2 million, we`ve been hearing it for so long, but when you actually put it in perspective, 2 million people is the size of the population of West Virginia, of Nebraska. It`s more than those states, and more than 12 or 15 other states.

When you think about the devastation that has wrought on our communities, it`s hard to wrap your mind around it.

HARRIS-PERRY: And as much as 2 million matters, I almost don`t care if it`s 2 million or if it`s just Cynthia`s story, when you hear that story, it`s so appalling.

GOODMAN: You know, Melissa, I was thinking about President Obama last night when he was at the play, "A Raisin in the Sun", right? "A Raisin in the Sun" by Lorraine Hansberry taken from Langston Hughes poem, I just want to read three lines from that poem. What happens to a dream deferred, does it dry up like a raisin in the sun or fester like a sore and then run and hues ends by saying or does -- he says maybe it just sags like a heavy load or does it explode.

This is what President Obama and the Republicans and Democrats have to deal with, with the immigrant rights movement, the injustice of 2 million people being deported, the vast majority have not committed a crime. They are here. And who is talking about this? Jeb Bush.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, I was going to say --

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: In fact, let`s listen to Jeb Bush because it is sort of stunning that the point that you just made has been made by Jeb Bush. Let`s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: The way I look at this, and this is not -- you know, I`m going to say this and it will be on tape and so be it. They cross the border because they had no other means to work to be able to provide for their family. Yes, they broke the law. But it`s not a felony. It`s kind of -- it`s an act of love. It`s an act of commitment to your family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: So everybody stay with me because we`re going to come back and talk about if in fact the world is going to explode because Jeb Bush and Amy Goodman agree on this question when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So what you heard Jeb Bush saying there just a little bit earlier before the break was not an anomaly, he really meant it. Here he is on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: This last week I made some statements about immigration reform that apparently generated a little more news than anticipated. The simple fact is, there is no complete between enforcing our laws, believing in the role of law, and having some sensitivity to the immigrant experience, which is part of who we are as a country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, I don`t hate that. Is that -- so is that the solution for the Republican Party, to sort of regain a foothold as a party that can grow as opposed to one shrinking demographically?

CARTAGENA: I would hope the Republican Party would admit the fact it`s intentional and a part of many of the colleagues to isolate and single out Latinos in the way they`re doing.

I mean, it would be nice with Jeb Bush to also say and admit, yes, some of my colleagues have made a mistake.

Think about what happened in Alabama -- Alabama, we have a federal judge written an opinion that anti-immigrant in the debate in the Alabama`s legislature was code for anti-Latino. It means it`s pretty clear in any way, shape or form.

Let`s have a Republican also have an honest discussion about race and immigration.

HARRIS-PERRY: And the other piece, I guess I want to push back, is that there`s always the sort of, OK, let`s talk about immigration, and that will be about getting the Latino vote. First of all, Latinos are single issue voters, who only vote on open immigration policy, which is empirically false.

GREER: And the data says that Latino actually vote for economies -- the economy, jobs, schools. There are so many other issues --

HARRIS-PERRY: They`re voters.

GREER: Right, they`re multidimensional voters, right.

REYES: But it is amazing we are at this point where Jeb Bush is, you know, out in public with that. Nancy Pelosi in her remarks, she also compared the immigration enforcement policies we currently have, she compared that to the interment camps of the Japanese during the war.

So who is holding the radical position in this policy discussion? It`s the Obama administration. It`s really time for them to rethink the whole enforcement policy because it`s a failed policy. It`s futile and politically, it`s just been absolutely fruitless.

HARRIS-PERRY: That interment camp language is so important. You guess that assumption that certain identities are simply enemies of the state.

GOODMAN: What the White House is weighing inside, maybe they`ll just extend stopping deportations from the dreamers, the young people. Let`s make no mistake about it, going back to the civil rights movement. The reason they got that is because they were sitting in, like Cynthia, they were fasting.

President Obama was a community organizer. He responds to a demand, the demand has been from the right for a long time. Now, those who help to elect them are making demands. They haven`t for a long time. They were demobilized.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes.

GOODMAN: Right now, you see in that most powerful movement now is the immigrant rights movement and he has to figure out what to do.

HARRIS-PERRY: This is really I think the perfect point to end on for this hour. We started with LBJ, this notion of a movement that pushes a president to great civil rights work, ending with an 18-year-old girl who is not just fasting, but hunger striking, not eating for five days, because her mother is imprisoned.

REYES: These people are the conscience of the immigrant rights movement.

HARRIS-PERRY: Indeed. Thank you to Amy and Raul, Christina and Juan.

And that is our show for today. Thanks to you at home for watching. I`m going to see you tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. Eastern. "New York Magazine" writer Jonathan Chait, yes, he`s coming to Nerdland. We are going to have ourselves a conversation about race, politics and President Obama.

Now, it`s time for a preview of "WEEKENDS WITH ALEX WITT."

Hi, Alex.

END

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.END

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MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC ANCHOR: This morning my question, is President Obama winning his leg of the relay swim?

Plus, beware of the pop-up tax man.

And hunger strike at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

But first, separating fact from fiction when it comes to the politics of the wage gap.

Good morning, I`m Melissa Harris-Perry. This week Senate Democrats tried unsuccessfully to pass their Paycheck Fairness Act to help close the wage gap between men and women workers. This, of course, set the nation to talking about women and work, and you can`t really talk about working women in America without thinking of Rosie. Rosie Riveter, the we can do it figure of World War 2. Rosie answered the call of her nation by trading in her apron for a riveting gun. As millions of young men left home to do battle for democracy overseas, millions of women took up their place in the factories of the defense industry, fighting for democracy right here at home. 310,000 women worked in the aircraft industry alone, where almost none had worked before. Yes, Rosie and her sisters in the fight for democracy were critical to the war effort and a grateful nation thanks these efficient, sacrificial, hard-working women with deafening applause and paychecks half the size of the men who worked alongside with them.

And never fear, when the war ended, these loyal women workers who toiled for half pay were indeed rewarded with a promotion to the most important job of all. Domestic technician. Yes, once the men came home from war, Rosie was told to go home and to rebuild the nation another way, by making babies and buying consumer items and, man, Rosie did a damn good job at that too. Let it never be forgotten that it was the Rosies who gave birth to the baby boomers. It`s interesting then that Democratic women in the Senate framed their failed vote on Paycheck Fairness Act in terms of war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARBARA MIKULSKI (D) MARYLAND: We`re leading an American revolution, just like Abigail Adams encouraged us. If they forget the ladies, we`re here to fight. So I said square your shoulders, put your lipstick on and let`s fight another day.

SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D) WASHINGTON: We deserve more than to be left fighting the same uphill battles for justice we`ve been fighting for decades and decades.

SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN (D) WISCONSIN: Opposition to the Paycheck Fairness Act is a war on progress in our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: It also probably won`t surprise you to hear that the Republicans blocked the bill. They said it was not about real policy, but a transparent political stunt to draw more women voters to come out in November. Now here`s what the Paycheck Fairness Act would have done. It would require some companies to report salary information to the government and would prohibit retaliation against employees for telling one another how much they make. It would also expand opportunities for workers to sue their employers over wage discrimination. Now, workers can sue already, thanks to the Equal Pay Act, but it`s a hard road to take. And a woman has to know that she`s being paid less. She has to find another employee making more money for the same job and she has to be willing to risk, torpedoing her own career in order to do so. She has to find a lawyer willing to take her case. That`s not an easy thing to do when workers win only a third of the time in equal pay cases. The Paycheck Fairness Act would address that to some extent by narrowing the grounds on which an employer can claim that the disparity is due to legitimate business reasons, but it still puts the onus on the workers to sue a system that has not yet closed the wage gap. And that`s why, frankly, I kind of agree with the Republicans. You know, they said that the act is a little more a piece of political fluff than to lure women voters and, you know, because for all the talk of women making 77 cents on every dollar that a man earns, wage discrimination is simply not the only reason. The reality is in fact far more complicated. Just look at the White House. Republicans made much hay over the fact that women working at the White House earn on average 88 percent of what men working at the White House make. And they asked about it on Monday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney explained that men and women in the White House are paid the same level -- the same amount for the same level of job, but the problem only comes when you do the math.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: When you look at the aggregate and this includes everybody from this most senior levels to the lowest levels, you`re averaging all salaries together, which means including the lowest level salaries, which may or may not be, depending on the institution, filled by more women than men.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Probably not a great idea to engage in mansplaining - mansplaining, but let me just say, that what Carney said here is, in fact, exactly the problem for women nationwide. Women as an aggregate make less money than men and that`s because they`re more likely to work those lower level jobs. Women make almost two thirds of workers who make a minimum wage or less, and women account for nearly three-quarters of workers in tipped occupations like waitressing where the federal minimum is only $2.13 an hour. Women congregate in lower paying fields. Nine out of ten college majors that offer the least lucrative careers are dominated by women. Fields like early childhood education and social work. And then there are the disparities even within similar fields. Nurse midwives, for example, are 95 percent women and they are paid less than half as much as ob/gyns who are 50 percent men. Maids make less than janitors. And according to data compiled by Bloomberg, the highest paid women at major corporations made an average 18 percent less than the highest paid men in part because women tend to have lower level see suite positions and not that top CEO gig.

So disparity is complicated and due to a variety of reasons that require a variety of solutions. Like raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, guaranteeing paid parental leave, instituting Universal Pre-K. Joining me now, Bryce Covert who`s the economic policy editor at ThinkProgress and a contributor at "The Nation," Rick Newman, who`s columnist at Yahoo Finance. Christina Greer, who`s assistant professor at Fordham University and author of "Black Ethnics Race: Immigration and Pursuit of the American dream." And Nomi Prins who`s the senior fellow at Demos and author of a great new book "All the President`s Bankers, the Hidden Alliances That Drive American Power." So nice to have you all here.

CHRISTINA GREER, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Thank you.

NAOMI PRINCE: Thank you.

HARRIS-PERRY: Bryce, I`m going to start with you. So, on the one hand, like I`m down with the Paycheck Fairness Act - (INAUDIBLE) It will make things worse. But I`m not completely against the Republicans` point that it`s maybe a little more politics than it is substantively getting to this complicated set of questions.

BRYCE COVERT, THINK PROGRESS: Yeah, I want to give the Republicans two points. One is that I do think the idea that the Paycheck Fairness Act or the Lilly Ledbetter Act are silver bullets that will just close the wage gap. That just doesn`t live up to reality. We need, like you said, I loved all the solutions that you put forward.

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, my liberal utopia that I would build.

COVERT: I would build it with you. I also think that they have a point. You know, they have been pushing back on the idea that there is a wage gap. I wouldn`t give them that point, but I would give them the point that it`s complicated and saying that the 77 percent earnings that women make compared to men is all discrimination, is misleading. And I think that that number gets thrown around without a whole lot of context.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, so on the one hand, like I want to be able just to make that point because it`s so important that it`s not just, you know, the male manager up there, you know, HR manager who`s making a decision to pay the little woman less. On the other hand, it doesn`t mean that discrimination like - you know, that sort of base of discrimination is gone. It does in fact continue to exist in the workforce.

NOMI PRINS, AUTHOR, "ALL THE PRESIDENT`S BANKERS": Well, exactly. And as you mentioned, the power relationship in the workforce, particularly at the positions that are higher in companies and in the companies that themselves make more money, for example, in banking, the top six banks have always been run by men. The managing partners are traditionally mostly men and that has been the case historically. So, and that`s where the money is. So you filter that out through the issue of the framework of why women also don`t have as much money as men in terms of their paychecks. Well, they also don`t have as much power. And that is a big part of the complexity of the issue.

HARRIS-PERRY: So let me take that point around power, Christina. And come in part to what I see as maybe the most distressing thing that happens when we do the aggregate - men versus women. And that is that we forget that - or what that can do is generate a sense of false solidarity that all women are all necessarily in the same circumstance of unfairness. So even if there`s a general sense of unfairness, if in fact my H.R. manager or my direct supervisor or the woman whose kitchen I clean is a woman, she nonetheless might be engaging with me in a way that is unfair as her employee.

GREER: Right. I think the historical context is really important. Because we also - we constantly throw around this 77 cents to a dollar conversation, but we do also know that there`s a very real racial divide also within this, right? So if white women for the most part are making 77 cents on the dollar, we know that black and Latina women are making much less.

HARRIS-PERRY: In fact, let me show you those numbers. So do we have - Because 77 is the number we`ve been hearing. But when we look at the race gap, the wage gap from African-American women, if we compare it to white men`s earnings, they only make 64 percent of what white men earn. 89 percent of what black men earn and 82 percent of what white women earn. So we see African-American women on the bottom there. Bu then also look at Latinas. And the earning for Latinas there - for compared to white men is 53 percent, right? And that is probably not because there are Latina CEOs who are being paid less. That has everything to do with a structured market that puts those women, black and Latina women in a different ...

GREER: But it`s also - a structured market, right? When we think about FDR, I mean the way he was able to get the new deal passed, is to really just sell black women down the river literally, right? And so he excludes domestic workers. So, now we have a historical conversation about wealth, right? Wealth, race and gender that goes across time and so we see people sort of stuck in sectors. I mean not just early childhood education and social work, but we also see the replication of poverty and replication of lower wage jobs. So I think we also have to make sure we historicize some of these inequities. Because they are not going to erase overnight. I mean I, you know, I do somewhat agree with the Republicans, but there is something to be said about symbolic legislation every now and again. Right? I mean we saw this with Apartheid legislation in the `80s and, you know, it seemed ridiculous, but over time it can sort of move progress a little bit more.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, this is an interesting point, that even as I have a critique of the Democrats on the Paycheck Fairness Act, the fact is I don`t have any idea what the right might be offering as an alternative.

RICK NEWMAN, YAHOO! FINANCE: That`s right. Well, let`s think about a way you might actually get something like this to pass. I mean here`s an idea. So, one GOP objection is look, we can`t put yet another burden on businesses. There`s actually some legitimacy to that. I mean if you talk to business owners, they really are drowning in regulation. So here`s a way you can construct a win-win. OK? So, you know what? If you`re the Democrat, you know,, we`re going to give you that point. Let`s take away a few outdated regulations on business, and believe me there are plenty ...

HARRIS-PERRY: Sure.

NEWMAN: And say we`re going to put a new regulation on them. Let`s take a few regulations off of them. How does that sound? Could you - is this a possible win-win position? I mean this - It`s not that hard to get to ....

HARRIS-PERRY: This is the balanced budget theory, right? Right?

NEWMAN: This is called a compromise.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, right, right.

NEWMAN: If you really want to pass a law, make a compromise.

HARRIS-PERRY: That`s a dirty word in D.C. these days, in part because part of what they want to be able to do and we`ll get to this, is to say we presented this, the other side is against it, right? And so part of the question is how well does that serve folks who are actually doing the work in these communities, in these corporations. When we come back, we`re going to talk more about the pay gap debate coming out of the Texas attorney general`s office.

But first, the departure of one of the top women in the Obama administration, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius publicly announced her resignation Friday after five years that focused largely on the Affordable Care Act. She was widely criticized after a troubled rollout of the healthcare.gov website, but as she leaves office, the administration has exceeded its goal of 7 million people signing up for health care during the initial open enrollment period. President Obama praised Sebelius and nominated Sylvia Matthews Burwell who`s de factor of the White House office of Management and Budget as her successor. In her farewell speech, the secretary reflected on her work on the ACA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, U.S. DEPT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: We are on the front lines of a long overdue national change, fixing a broken health system. Now, this is the most meaningful work I`ve ever been a part of. In fact, it`s been the cause of my life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Let`s look at one specific example of a wage gap, the Texas attorney general`s office. Assistant attorney generals who are men make more on average than those who are women. Now, that is something that`s come up and been a bit of a topic of a debate because in Texas the Attorney General Greg Abbott, is running for governor. The attorney general`s office has defended itself by saying discrepancy stems from differences in how long the men have been licensed and have worked at the agency. Not so, says Professor Bethany Albertson and assistant professor of government at the University of Texas in Austin. Writing in "Texas Monthly" she says "Based on my analysis it turns out that each additional year of experience corresponds with a $992 increase in salary, if you`re a man. But if you`re a woman, the increase is about $200 less or $798 per year of experience. This discrepancy per year of experience shows just how insidious a gender wage gap can be. So, I`d love this research by Professor Albertson in part because it`s indicative of that, you know, on the one hand you have Abbott`s office like Carney saying oh, no, it`s not discrimination, it`s just this other thing. But when you look at it, no, each additional year of experience has a steeper curve for men than for women.

COVERT: Absolutely. Women -- people often say, oh, well, you know, it`s differing levels of education, let`s say. But women graduate from college. The first year out they are making less than men despite their grades, despite their college. And then no matter what higher degree they take on, they will make less than an average man, so they get a Ph.D. They`re still making less. They get an MBA, they`re still making less. So, we always see these discrepancies even within groups.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. So, that was an AUW study that in part showed that discrepancy for college grads coming straight out and that idea that on the one hand it is that traditional labor market question where women`s domestic work is not valued as private work and therefore isn`t valued as public work, but it is also that even if they`re taking the same job. So, we were talking in the break a little bit about the idea that transparency, which is part of the Paycheck Fairness Act could help this issue.

PRINS: Yeah, and I think that part of it isn`t getting discussed as much and it should be discussed a lot more. Because if you know as a woman or as anyone in a work environment what someone else is making for the same level that you have, then you have the ability to go in and fight. It should be fair, everything should be fair. That would be a great situation. But if you at least are armed with a bullet, the ammunition to go in and say, you know what, that guy is making that much money to do what I do. In fact I`m actually doing it more, but let`s just leave that aside. That guy is doing -- I want to be at the same level because in many cases, particularly as you go on up the ladder on the corporate side and in these institutions where more money is swirling around anyway and it doesn`t even come out in the wage gap because it`s in bonuses and other forms of compensations, you need to know so that you have the ability to fight. And that`s a very important part of this act, which is a shame that it didn`t get through.

HARRIS-PERRY: Wait, I want to push back a little on something that you said earlier. At one point you said, and at first, I was going with you, because I am a fan of actually getting things done and this idea of trade-offs seemed right. But then the more we were kind of thinking and talking about it on the break, I thought wait a minute, we don`t make trade-offs on basic fairness. This isn`t a regulation, right, this is about paying workers in a fair way for doing the same kind of work and providing transparency so that if they`re not being paid that way. So, I just - I want to go back and ask a little bit about that because you framed it as regulation. And I`m wondering if there is another way to think about this. Because we don`t think of basic human or civil rights as regulations.

NEWMAN: Well, this is messy. I mean we`re talking about all these different ways. You can`t exactly put these in two columns on the piece of paper and say here`s the women, here`s the men. It`s that simple to break down. I was just talking about how to pass a law. With, you now, laws are never perfect.

HARRIS-PERRY: Full house ..

NEWMAN: Laws are never perfect.

HARRIS-PERRY: Sure.

NEWMAN: They`re always messy.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah.

NEWMAN: But I, you know, this is - we`ve just shifted this conversation away from policy solutions a little bit and you`re talking about women themselves in the workplace. And I think one thing that`s important to point out here is it`s never been a better time for women to take this matter into their own hands when they can. They can`t always do that. But sometimes they can. There is more support than there has ever been. A lot of attention like we`re giving it right now, thanks in part to, you know, people putting legislation in force and President Obama drawing attention to this, to this fairness issue. This argument in Texas is terrific. It`s great that it`s getting this attention. And I`ll bet you things change.

HARRIS-PERRY: So ....

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: But let me suggest that I think that`s both true and not true, which is to say I agree that we have made enormous progress, particularly for women in the workforce. I`m not quite with the end of men as a theory. But that`s we`ve also seen a regress in labor rights in general. And so I just think for workers in general in this moment with the very slack labor market, it`s hard to make an argument about the power of any laborer to negotiate vis-…-vis, right, their employer at this moment.

GREER: Well, I mean we know that we`re right now in a moment where it`s a war on poor people. It really is a war on women. I mean the fundamental principles of American democracy are not based on fairness, they`re based on economic inequality. And so, for us to sort of not really think about, you know, the 1700s, 1800s and all the ways, in which the fabric of this nation is about. So this economic inequality and making sure that the exclusion of others to a certain extent benefits you.

HARRIS-PERRY: This is an argument vis-a-vis chain on race but you`re making it around gender. That there is - that even though we have the kind of soaring ideals in our rhetoric, that in practice we have always seen this kind of interweaving inequality.

GREER: Right. And we know that this intersectionality exists. So if it exists not just on a black/white spectrum, not just on a male/female spectrum, right? And so you have all these other groups now that are into it. And so, for us to start these conversations, yes, they`re productive, but like the policies themselves, there isn`t going to be a magic bullet and it`s going to take a series of various policies but also it`s going to take even more time, right. And so the question is how long do women have to wait, right? I mean a student just wrote a fantastic paper about how women are taxed on sanitary products, because it`s a luxury good. So even these minor things just erode at women`s sort of financial security.

HARRIS-PERRY: I love that you said intersectional because there`s a little bit of a drinking game that goes on in my control room around the use of the word intersectional. It`s almost always me, but see, it was my guest this time.

Up next, the type of Republican lawmaker Democrats just love to hate. The argument that Democrats love to make.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKULSKI: It brings tears to my eyes to know how women every single day are working so hard and are getting paid less. It makes me emotional to hear that. Then when I hear all of these phony reasons, some are mean and some are meaningless, I do get emotional. I get angry, I get outraged, I get volcanic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So if you`re a political party trying to get women to the polls, Democrats have at least a two-pronged strategy. One, to offer policies that they can say will improve the lives of women, like the Paycheck Fairness Act, we`ve been talking about, but the second prong is to sit back and just let Republicans say stuff like what one Missouri state representative said this week in defense of a proposed 72-hour waiting period for abortion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE REP. CHUCK GATSCHENBERGER (R ) MISSOURI: Even when I buy a new vehicle, this is my experience again, I don`t go right in there and say I want to buy that vehicle and then you walk -- you know, you leave with it. I have to look at it, get information about it, maybe drive it, you know, a lot of different things, check prices. There`s a lot of things that I do - into a decision, whether that`s a car, whether that`s a house, whether that`s any major decision that I put in my life, even carpeting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Even carpeting. So, look, there are -- you know, I don`t want to - I don`t want to - by the notion that all women are pro reproductive justice, they aren`t. But even women who oppose abortion may not really like a state representative, oh, well, you know, it`s kind of like you`ve got to at least make as much sense as I do when I buy a car or carpeting. Like isn`t this precisely the kind of strategy that Democrats are like, yeah, just keep talking because you end up being alienated.

NEWMAN: You wonder if some of these people have ever met a woman.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, they all have daughters.

NEWMAN: Have they ever talked to one?

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah.

COVERT: Well, I think interestingly in that clip he`s kind of making his own point. We don`t regulate his decision to make a car or to buy carpeting. They`re big decisions and we don`t tell you how to make it.

But look - yeah, I think ...

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, I love that. Men could all have a 72-hour waiting period before being able to purchase a car. That ...

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

NEWMAN: Don`t make an impulse run.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, don`t make an impulse - right.

COVERT: But yeah, there`s this strategy that`s just sort of saying back and leaving them - say - the things that they are going to say, but what that does, is it ends up putting you on a defense, right? You`re always sort of playing on the extremist`s turf and it`s harder, I think, to move from that and then say, but here`s what we`re going to do proactively. Here`s our vision. Here`s the bills we want to pass that don`t just react to Todd Akin or this guy.

But they try to build the progressive utopia.

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, that`s - don`t say - I`m not that I think President Obama is trying to build a progressive utopia, but he`s gotten so increasingly progressive in his discourse around this. I want to listen to him in his weekly address which was released today talking about kind of a broad agenda for women`s policy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: House Republicans won`t vote to raise the minimum wage or extend unemployment insurance for women out of work through no fault of their own. The budget they passed this week would force deep cuts to investments that overwhelmingly benefit women and children, like Medicaid, food stamps and college grants. And, of course, they`re trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act for the 50th or so time, which would take away vital benefits and protection from millions of women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: So this is so great, right. I mean so the agenda - women`s agenda now, Medicaid, food stamps, college grants and, come on, there`s 7.1 million people now signed up for ACA.

GREER: Well, I think the real long-term damaging effects, you know, as a professor is that these bickering arguments back and forth really do turn off young voters, the young potential voters, right. So when we`re trying to actually get young people to care about not just financial aid but their own bodies and what regulations mean, all they hear are sort of ignorant comments by some, not all Republicans. And then when Obama tries to make the counterargument that, well, women need welfare or they need certain provisions from the government, then they`re just like wasn`t he supposed to provide that as the president? So there`s not a lot of context. There`s sort of these, you know, these shortcuts and these little cues and snippets and so the larger argument is somehow getting lost. And I think we`re in jeopardy, actually, of alienating a much larger group of people. Not just youth, but also people who aren`t really in the political process - in the discourse.

HARRIS-PERRY: So are we right now failing to talk to women voters like adults?

PRINS: Well, I think that`s -- by putting these side issues and wage isn`t a side issue, but by talking about these little sort of skirmishes with the Republicans and Democrats and making it politicized as opposed to about greater democracy, greater power, greater equality, these are all things that on an economic basis help drive America forward. Women, people of different race, all of us together should be part of a more equal democracy. We don`t have that. These are pieces of trying to build that. And when we have that, the times we`ve had that, even when Rosie the Riveter was doing her riveting, and if - we actually had a more equal democracy. We had more -- even though there was a wage gap between women and men, there was also a sense of building the country together and distributing power a little bit more than we`ve had in other periods of history and we have now.

HARRIS-PERRY: But then also Jim Crow, right? So ...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So, but right, right - no, but that`s all - I mean I think that`s in part always the question of when we tell a historical narrative, sort of from whose perspective do we sell it? Right? So, there`s a way in which like - I love Rosie and I love the idea of Rosie the Riveter and as you pointed out the sets of policies around workers that emerged from that new deal. But then also recognition, right, that where my grandmother is working in the 1940s is in someone`s kitchen, which does not end up getting covered under those labor policies.

When we come back, it is like deja vu all over again when it comes to courting the women`s vote. Some history may definitively and definitely be repeating itself. But first, another update on a key part of the president`s agenda, raising the minimum wage. More states are actually acting on their own. On Monday, Maryland lawmakers passed a bill to increase the state`s minimum wage to $10.10 by the year 2018. Governor Martin O`Malley is expected to sign the bill. There are some drawbacks, though, one of them being that the legislation doesn`t raise the minimum wage for tipped restaurant workers whose rate will remain at $3.63 an hour. On Thursday, Minnesota lawmakers approved a bill to gradually raise the minimum wage to $9.50 by 2016 for large businesses. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So we know that there`s a current political obsession with getting more women to the polls, but it is not new. Just check out this NBC "Nightly News" segment from October 15th, 1996, which if you were to change the hair styles just a bit seems like it could have run last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was no accident that Hillary Rodham Clinton happened to be in Tucson, Arizona, today.

HILLARY CLINTON: Thank you very much. And ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Solidly Republican Arizona is suddenly winnable for Democrats who worked hard to exploit the gender gap.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arizona Republican women for Clinton/Gore.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Targeting women voters in ads and through 5500 faxes sent each month to influential women around the country, they have turned lifelong Republicans like Teddy Langafi (ph) into Bill Clinton activists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, send those faxes out to get people to the polls. So, you know, we`ve been thinking a lot as we`re going into the midterms, going into the next presidential election about the idea of a woman candidate at the top of either the Democratic or the Republican ticket as a way of attracting women. But if we go back to kind of the question of the economic fairness for women workers, it seems to me that part of your argument is whether you`re Democrat or Republican, woman or male candidate, you are really in the pockets of big business in ways that might make it tough for identity politics to translate into leftist policy.

PRINS: Exactly. It`s a good conversation and useful, but the fact is that relationship, the symbiotic relationships between anyone who sits in the Oval Office, anyone who is appointed, not elected as Treasury Secretary and the people that run the most profitable corporations and the banks in this country are really dictating a lot of the policy. And because they are so similar, because they have the wealth behind them, because they require each other`s wealth and power to stay in their positions or to attain those positions, the policy itself gets dictated through those alignments. And so these - we`re trying to chip away with the other issues on the outside of what`s a very central core of alive power between corporations and people in the White House.

HARRIS-PERRY: So one can be happy to have Yellen, for example, in the Fed position, but her being a woman does not necessarily lead to different monetary policy.

PRINS: Exactly right. She`s doing exactly what Ben Bernanke did and she has no choice. And anyone in that position whether they are a woman or a man would be doing the same thing, which is subsidizing the banking system at the expense of the greater and broader populations.

NEWMAN: We have - Something is really important here. I mean there has been a shift in the balance of power in the economy away from employees and workers to employers, and especially big employers. It`s not hopeless for workers, but really important to know is we`re talking about, you know, policies that will improve things. The thing that will improve people`s position, men and women both, is more skills, the skills that matter. This is just crucially important today. You know, just saying can you please pay me a little bit more isn`t getting anywhere for men or women alike. What gets you somewhere say I have some new skill that`s going to help the company. Here`s what I can contribute. I`m going to make a better contribution. This is how -- this is how people get ahead these days. It`s really important to keep in mind.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, interestingly - it`s interesting, because in part like immediately you start thinking about different kinds of work that are related there, so there`s a way in which if you are the Walmart greeter or the McDonald`s cashier, and we know this - I know we think these are teenagers, these are not, right, these are adult workers. We want new skill do you bring - so, if you`re in that part of the labor market, you`re kind of stuck in this minimum wage space. But if you`re in another part of the labor market, it actually might be a fine time to be able to negotiate because there are lower numbers of high skilled workers, right, compared to the jobs that are available.

NEWMAN: It depends where you are geographically. And it depends what industry you`re in, but everybody can get more skills. I mean you don`t have to go to college and spend $200,000 to get more skills. There are things people can do. The community colleges, you can find programs that are where - community colleges will align with businesses because businesses need such and such a worker so they`ll help programs. I mean you have to do a lot of research. It`s not going to land in your lap. But that is the way the economy is these days.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, but I wonder about that, Bryce, in part, because, you know, so I don`t want to move away from this idea that part of the responsibility for individuals to invest in themselves, but it`s also an investment in the sort of broader perspective to have a good workforce. Should there be government -- part of what the president said was college loans, and he doesn`t mean just, you know, come to Wake Forest University and get a B.A., he does mean making available community colleges.

COVERT: Well, I want to point out that when we`re talking about skills, even among high-skilled jobs, the ones that are dominated by women are paid about $470 less a week than the ones dominated by men. So we are still talking about are we valuing the high skill jobs that women can get and tend to get. But of course, I mean I think we want to help women move into stem fields, for example. They`re in high demand, they`re incredibly important skills and we see women are less represented there. And we also see not only a smaller pipeline, but it dribbles out. Women do not stick with it and I think it`s because it conflicts with family, there`s a lot of discrimination. There`s a lot of stuff that works against them.

HARRIS-PERRY: We can spend all day on the stem thing. Because on the one hand, yes, more women in stem but also why should stem be the only ones - like this goes back to your point of valuing what kinds of labor.

After the break, the state passing legislation to make criminals out of mothers. My letter of the week is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: This week the Tennessee state legislature passed a bill that would allow drug addicted pregnant women to be prosecuted as criminals. Now, the bill would permit a woman who used illegal drugs during pregnancy to be charged with assault if her child is born addicted to or harmed by the drug. And to be charged with homicide if the child dies. It would also allow women to avoid those charges if they volunteer for drug treatment. But before Tennessee`s governor makes it official with his signature, I wanted to urge him to consider that this proposed solution may only exacerbate the problem that his state is trying to solve.

Dear Governor Bill Haslam, it`s me, Melissa. Now, I understand the magnitude of the crisis facing your state and how daunting it must feel. Last year a report found that in Tennessee babies born addicted to opiate drugs that their mothers took during pregnancy was higher than ever before. But governor, as you think about what you`re going to do with that bill that`s on your desk, please take a moment to consider that punishment is no substitute for protection. Particularly when the threat of that punishment could put the health and well-being of vulnerable people, both the babies and their mothers, at even greater risk.

As you have already no doubt heard from the national medical groups that have weighed in on this bill, this proposal could have the exact opposite effect of its intent of improving health outcomes for babies of drug-addicted mothers. According to a statement released by the American Medical Association, pregnant women will be likely to avoid seeking prenatal or open medical care for fear that their physician`s knowledge of substance abuse or other potentially harmful behavior could result in a jail sentence rather than proper medical treatment.

So, governor, any government intervention to address drug dependency among pregnant women and their children must treat that addiction like what it is, a disease. And helping mothers to battle their disease requires a treatment-based approach that must first do no harm by ensuring they`re not deterred from prenatal care. That could reduce the effects of addiction on their babies. Besides, even as a law enforcement measure this bill is remarkably short-sighted because it targets only those women who use illegal drugs during their pregnancy. Yes, it is true that 30 percent of mothers of drug dependent babies born in Tennessee used illegal drugs specified by the bill, but it is also true that 42 percent of mothers of babies used legal drugs prescribed to them by a doctor for legitimate treatment. And another 20 percent actually used both.

So not only would your law criminalize only certain types of drug abusers, it would also completely overlook the primary driver of the epidemic of drug-addicted babies in your state. What`s more, you already have evidence that criminalizing drug-addicted mothers simply doesn`t work. For years Tennessee was already allowing women to be charged if their newborns tested positive for drugs, but over the last decade there was a ten-fold increase in babies in your state born addicted to opiates. Governor, here`s the good news. You need not look for an alternate policy approach for your state.

After all, the very same state legislature that proposed the bill you are currently considering are ready task, a safe harbor law last year that gave mothers addicted to prescription drugs priority in line for treatment programs and also assured them that they would not lose custody of their children if they disclosed their drug use. So, here`s - Why not instead of sign a law that would expand that intervention to include protection for all mothers battling addictions during their pregnancy. I think that would be just a much better use of your pen. Sincerely, Melissa.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: We are now in the final stretch of tax season, so maybe you`ve been seeing commercials like this.

(BV(

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been (POUNDING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been waiting on my check. You need to do something about this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want my stuff back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard there was a company out there that could get your check in 30 seconds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: That is a commercial from a few years back for the tax preparation company "More Money Taxes, formerly out of Memphis, advertising a refund check in just 30 seconds. If that sounds a little sketchy to you, well, it was. Last year the Justice Department filed a lawsuit to shut the company down, alleging that employees there prepare fraudulent returns that cause their customers to incorrectly report their federal tax liabilities and underpay their taxes and charge customers bogus and unconscionably high fees. Unfortunately, according to advocates, what "More Money Taxes" was up to is not uncommon. More than half of all tax preparers for this tax season are not subject to any kind of licensing or training regulations. They just have to register for an identification number. And the ease of getting into the business combined with the more than $300 billion in anticipated tax refund money has made tax preparation ripe for predatory practices that target low income communities, especially individuals who qualify for the earned income tax credit.

Joining me now to explain why this happens and what we can do about it is Stephen Black, Director of the Center for Ethics and Social Responsibility at the University of Alabama. He`s also the founder and president of Impact Alabama, which trains students to provide free tax preparation services for low income families. Good morning, Stephen.

STEPHEN BLACK, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

HARRIS-PERRY: Absolutely. So start with the earned income tax credit. Explain why that is such an issue in this predatory practice.

BLACK: Well, that`s the basis for the entire industry. Something that a lot of people don`t appreciate. The earned income tax credit is the single largest federal anti-poverty program. And I think it really doesn`t get that much attention and press because it`s one of those rare initiatives, probably the singular substantive federal tax initiative policy that enjoys bipartisan support. President Reagan was a big supporter, President Clinton grew it. It`s a refundable credit to families. I think it`s not controversial to say, sort of welfare reform because it leaves the debate about welfare to the side. You only qualify for it if you`re working and most of it goes to working parents raising adults. It`s a huge amount of money that pours into low income communities in about an eight-week period in the last part of January through March all over the country. The challenge is between 65 and 70 percent of these families feel as though they need professional help. They`re intimidated by the IRS, they don`t want to mess up, they don`t want to get it wrong and they don`t have access to CPAs, to accountants the way upper income families do because CPAs are not in the business of doing very simple returns where you don`t even itemize the return.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. And so when you say professional, though, I mean this is a pretty elastic term of professional, right? We were just looking that for tax practitioners who are subject to the Treasury standards, about 308,000 of them who are doing taxes. But when it comes to these folks who are these unenrolled preparers, folks who just need to get an I.D., there`s actually more of them. So they`re professional only to the extent that you have to pay them to do it?

BLACK: This is the majority of tax preparation around the country that serves working class Americans, working paycheck to paycheck. It`s literally like the Wild West. And people use the word regulation and commercial tax preparers say, well, this is going to be bad for our business. It`s going to - it literally will not be. Regulation really isn`t the best word. The best word is just basic licensing and training the way if you want to open a hair salon in any state in the country, you have to pass a test and get a license. If you want to do nails, you have to pass a test and get a license. If you want to prepare taxes for families charging them on average $300 for about 30 minutes of work that`s not very difficult, signing the most important document they sign all year, there`s no training requirement, there`s no licensing. It`s literally the Wild West in every state other than four.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. So you`re talking about $300 and $400 fees for a half an hour worth of work. That`s a $600 to $800 an hour level. I mean even sort of high level CPAs typically don`t charge that.

BLACK: That`s absolutely right. You can talk to the National Association of Certified Accountants. The average $100,000 a year family, which is not the average family, but the average $100,000 a year family pays between $150 and $200 to have their taxes done with itemization from a trained certified accountant. The average single mother working at Walmart making $19,000 a year raising two kids, goes into one of these places with a W-2, no itemization and will come out $300. $300 is a lot of money for me to waste in 30 minutes.

(LAUGHTER)

BLACK: But if you`re making $18,000 a year raising children, it`s painful and it`s really abusive.

HARRIS-PERRY: I couldn`t help but notice that the "More Money" commercial also had a particular sort of veilance to it that felt like there are some communities being particularly targeted here.

BLACK: Oh, absolutely, there`s no question. And a lot of them will be very clear about it. And liberty tax is another one. I think H&R block is the most legitimate, and they in fact are not against additional training requirements because they do train their staff more. Sometimes I think they get a little too expensive, but that`s my opinion. But the other mom and pop operations and the chains that have kind of sprung from the H&R block model, who specifically prey on low income communities, and a lot of them just African-American communities, they open up in strip malls next to payday lenders and title pawn shops and literally, they`re not even there by the end of April.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah.

BLACK: You can`t find them. A lot of times they don`t even sign the returns for the people.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, they just - they pop up and then they`re gone. We really wanted to get that information out. Stephen Black in San Jose, thank you so much for joining us.

BLACK: Thank you for having me.

HARRIS-PERRY: Absolutely.

Also here in New York thank you to Bryce Covert, Rick Newman and Nomi Prins. Now, Christina is going to stick around a little bit. Maybe she`ll say intersectional again.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS-PERRY: Coming up to President Obama on the legacy of LBJ and the limits of presidential power. Does he still believe that yes we can? There`s going to be more "Nerdland" at the top of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Back, I`m Melissa Harris-Perry.

On Thursday, it seemed as if we were going to be treated to some vintage Obama. The president addressed the civil rights forum in Austin, Texas, honoring the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act signed by President Lyndon Johnson.

And the president wraps buoyed by the 7.1 million enrollees in Obamacare was in classic Obama rhetorical form. He started with the self deprecating humor in which he reminds us that whatever criticism we have in the press or public, the first lady has likely already expressed them in the residence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Michelle was in particular interested of a recording in which Lady Bird is critiquing President Johnson`s performance. And she said come, come, you need to listen to this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: He also gave us some of that delicious Professor Obama affect too, as he offered a compelling history lesson about Johnson`s first legislative priorities after unexpectedly assuming the presidency.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: He wanted to call on senators and representatives to pass a civil rights bill. In one particularly bold aide said he did not believe a president should spend his time and power on lost causes, however worthy they might be. To which it is said, President Johnson replied, well, what the hell`s the presidency for?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Then, the next key ingredient in the Obama formula, when the president makes his trademark turn from a specific story, Lyndon Johnson`s in this case, to a broader theory of democracy and government by the people. It`s always my favorite part because no other president has so eloquently and routinely included social movements in his telling of the American story.

Here, President Obama reminds us that LBJ could act only because he was compelled to act by the people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We recall the countless unheralded Americans, black and white, students and scholars, preachers, and housekeepers, whose names are etched not on monuments but in the hearts of their loved ones and in the fabric of the country that they helped to change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: OK. So, at this point, close followers of the president`s speeches know what is coming, right? It`s what follows the mention of the elderly Anna Nixon Cooper who cast her vote on election vote. It`s what followed the invocation of Seneca Falls and Selma and Stonewall at the second inauguration. Come on, you know what is next, Nerdland -- yes, we can. Right?

It`s the moment the president assures us of the ability of the American people to change ourselves, our nation, our world, as we bend that arc of history toward justice -- and here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Those of us who have had the singular privilege to hold the office of the presidency know well that progress in this country can be hard and it can be slow. Frustrating, and sometimes you`re stymied. The office humbles you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Wait a minute, what? This is the "yes, we can" part, Mr. President. Your giving me slow and frustrating and stymied and humbling? OK, OK, maybe it`s up next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: You`re reminded daily that in this great democracy, you are but a relay swimmer in the currents of history, bound by decisions made by those who came before, reliant on the efforts of those who will follow to fully vindicate your vision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: A relay swimmer? OK, I`m going to need to hit pause here because our president has changed the ending on us in a very interesting way. Facing the last midterm election of his presidency with no other election in his personal future, our soaring optimist is turning a more jaundiced eye on the American project.

Now, he is still firmly an American exceptionalist who insists on a fundamentally optimistic view of the American project, but as he discussed LBJ`s legislative legacy, it was easy to sense that he was distressed that his own legacy would not contain these sorts of civil rights achievements, not because he didn`t want them, but because he faced a 112th, 113th and likely a 114th Congress far more intransient than anything even the master of the Senate, Johnson himself, could have imagined.

And so the president left us on Thursday with hope, always with hope, but maybe a more tempered hope and one that leaves us not declaring "yes, we can", but asking, can we still?

At the table, Amy Goodman, the host and executive producer of "Democracy Now." Raul Reyes, a columnist at "USA Today", Christina Greer, who is assistant professor of political science at Fordham University, and Juan -- I`m sorry, they spelled it very strange (ph) in there-- Cartagena, who is president and general counsel of Latino Justice. Sometimes the pronouncers are actually harder for me.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRY-PERRY: You know, they do like this highlight reel of me destroying everyone`s name.

But I actually want to start with you because if we are, as the president suggested here, swimming in a relay, are we winning in terms of achieving that more perfected union?

JUAN CARTAGENA, LATINO JUSTICE: Well, we`ve got a lot of work to do, obviously. I think the issues that are concerning the civil rights movement in general have to take into account everything that`s happening on the immigration front. Incredible challenges that we have in ensuring that Latinos are also receiving equal treatment under the law.

If it is a relay race, then the next person grabbing this baton better pay attention to this issue. That is premiere civil rights issue as we`re going forward.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, I like that you immediately started to expand the definition of civil rights. Raul, I want to come to you in part on this because I think if we think about civil rights exclusively about African-American politics, then the president has a strong, but certainly not an LBJ level record, right, on this. But if we think about civil rights more broadly, particularly around LGBT issues, this presidency, the years of this presidency will be remembered as expansive.

RAUL REYES, USA TODAY: Right.

HARRIS-PERRY: On the creation -- not solely because of policies he himself passed, but a new environment which he helps to create. And I wonder if when you`re an elected official, you have to not be a member of the group for which you are expanding the rights. Like being the southern white gentleman helps LBJ to do race rights and being the straight black president helps President Obama to expand LGBT civil rights.

REYES: Maybe. I mean my impression of the speech, I came away from watching it that it was so realistic in the sense that he made references -- he talked about history moving backwards, which the first thing I thought about was the Shelby County decision. He also mentioned very pragmatically, he said that passing laws is only the first step, which is a nod to the circumstance.

You know, in LBJ`s time, we had bigotry and discrimination and racism that was codified into law so the policy fight was very easy from a progressive standpoint of good versus bad. Now, we still have all of those issues, but they`re in a much more subtle way. So, it`s a harder fight. It`s a tougher lift for him to move ahead.

And maybe -- I see what you`re saying. Maybe sometimes when you`re not at the center of those issues, maybe it is a little easier as a leader, as a lawmaker to see the calculus and to move on that.

HARRIS-PERRY: Amy, I sort of like this President Obama rhetorically better. I love -- I loved the yes, we can, especially for campaigning, like I said that as a strategy. But I appreciate that he tempered the sort of performance of hope that he often does by suggesting, man, this is hard and we may not be making much progress right now.

AMY GOODMAN, DEMOCRACY NOW: Well, I think the key word there is "we", because with this whole looking back 50 years to LBJ, I think the critical point is you have to go beyond LBJ as even Obama referenced to the movements. It wasn`t LBJ that did this. It was the movements that forced him to. The minute he`s signing the civil rights act in July, you have John Lewis, now the congressman, then a leading civil rights activist once again protesting with Diane Nash and the other remarkable people fighting already for the Voting Rights Act that would come the next year.

And right now, with President Obama, it`s not really about what he`s going to do. It is about what people are going to push him to do.

And I think clearly right now, the movement that is pushing the hardest, that is the most organized, is the immigrants` rights movement. And the question is not so much what is Obama going to do but what are people demanding.

CHRISTINA GREER, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Well, I always look at the Civil Rights Act and voting rights act and the immigration act -- I can see him moving into this. We saw George Bush do this in 2006 when he started to break away from Cheney. You start to think about your legacy.

But I think as a Democratic president, Obama is also looking at the big picture, right? So, we know there`s FDR and the New Deal. There`s LBJ and the Great Society. And there`s nothing really with Clinton.

GREER: So these are the things that as a Democratic president we can`t really hang our hats on, right? We`ve got Monica, we`ve got welfare, we`ve got prisons and we got NAFTA/KAFTA and ignorance on Rwanda, right?

So, if Obama is trying to have a an FDR, an LBJ and BHL movement, sort of as a Democratic president, this idea of Obamacare, this idea of immigration reform really needs to happen. But I really wonder if he`s sort of fallen into the George Bush trap, which is you`re obviously going to really start about immigration reform essentially your last two years in office. And, it`s too little too late.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, you know, one of the things I like about the way that you set up this notion of the Democratic president, we have this incredible piece of Adam Serwer did for the MSNBC where he is trying to rethink Johnson. I just want to read this. It`s kind of long but let me read from the piece here.

"Perhaps the simple explanation which Johnson likely understood better than most was there is no magic formula to which people can emancipate themselves from prejudice, no finish line that when crossed awards a person`s sole with a shining medal of purity in matters of race. All we can offer is a commitment to justice in word and deed that must be honored but from which we will all occasionally fall short. Maybe when Johnson said it`s not just Negroes but all of us who must overcome the crippling legacy of bigotry, he really meant all of us, including himself," right?

So, this suggests that that same tempered notion that President Obama was giving us, when we look back at LBJ, we see these great legislative accomplishments, but it is always still just partial. It`s never fully there.

CARTAGENA: Definitely. That`s the matter of legislation. You can only take it to a certain point. Behavior has to change, and that behavior has changed in many, many ways.

I mean, Obama symbolizes so many things of the civil rights movement. Now the question is for us in this diverse country that we now live in, given all the challenges we currently have, how do we translate those promises into today`s realities.

HARRIS-PERRY: And one way that we might be able to do it would be through the vote, which of course we know is at the moment being challenged. So when we come back, President Obama minces absolutely no words in his Friday speech that drilled the GOP.

But, seriously, you must go read Adam Serwer`s piece up right now on MSNBC.com entitled "Lyndon Johnson was a civil rights hero but also a racist."

This morning, if you read this one thing, you will have done something good for your brain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYNDON B. JOHNSON, FORMER PRESIDENT: This Civil Rights Act is a challenge to all of us, to go to work in our communities and in our states, in our homes and in our hearts, to eliminate the last vestiges of injustice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: So let`s be clear, the real voter fraud is people who try to deny our rights by making bogus arguments about voter fraud. And I`d just say, there have been some of these officials passing these laws have been more blunt. They say this is going to be good for the Republican Party. Some of them have not been shy about saying that they`re doing this for partisan reasons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: That was President Obama yesterday giving the keynote address at Reverend Al Sharpton`s National Action Network`s Annual Conference. Reverend Sharpton, of course, also hosts the program "POLITICS NATION" right here on MSNBC.

And I have to say, when I saw the president, I thought he`s got Ludacris back on his play list because he had a certain -- I mean, have you ever seen him not mincing words about voting rights in this way?

GOODMAN: It was so important what he said -- 147 million votes cast, 40 people were indicted for fraud. We`re talking about a nonexistent issue.

But what is extreme problem because there is an extreme problem is that people are losing their right to vote. What people got their heads bashed in for 50 years ago, right now, they`re cutting -- what is the justification for saying we`ll give less time for people to vote, especially for working people. I mean, when you go in the morning to vote, if you don`t get there at 6:00 and you work all day and you have to go back to where it is that you live, you`re not going to be able to live. What can justify, I don`t care, Democrat or Republican, cutting back on people`s ability to get to the polls.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. As you point out, that in no way would address voter fraud. Like having a shorter number of hours to cast one`s vote would have no impact on someone -- like we expect fraudulent people to show up more at noon than 6:00 a.m.

REYES: The great lie of all this -- when you do talk about voter fraud, these voter ID requirements that they`re passing, these other pieces of restrictive legislation, that wouldn`t impact it anyway because most of that tends to occur when it does at very instances, like through mail-in votes. It does --

CARTAGENA: Absentee ballots.

REYES: Right, absentee ballots. But I just think it`s so important that the president was up there calling it out for what it is. And, you know, so much of the time when we talk about civil rights legislation, the Voting Rights Act, it`s often in the sense of black and white. But as we go forward in the future, the reason that -- the damage that Shelby County decision is particularly damaging for the Latino community is the greatest growth of the Latino population is throughout the South and Southeast, the states that no longer have the preclearance.

So, it`s not just going to be an issue for African-American voters, it`s going to be increasingly an issue for the Latino community.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, the politics of this are important. I mean, Christina, I want to look at sort of the president`s approval ratings by race over time. And you see that, you know, he starts particularly with African-American and Hispanic voters sort of way up, again, particularly with African-American voters. You see it declines a little bit from 100 to 75.

But the important little blip I want you to see for both Hispanic and African-American voters is in 2012, it kind of ticks back up. And it seems to me that part of the reason, Christina, that happens is because that is when kind of the discourse about the attacks on voting become very clear. It becomes not just a referendum on President Obama but a referendum on whether or not we all have the right to vote. You see that uptick.

And I wonder if in part his like courage and forth rightness which may in part be sincere is also political, is also about saying this is the thing that really gets people to understand why they have to show up and vote.

GREER: Right. And this is the thing that will hopefully get people to show up and vote in 2014, right?

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, `tis the problem of midterms.

GREER: And I think we also just have to ask ourselves, where are the Democrats on this larger conversation, right? We have the president versus the Republican Party. But, you know, not to throw water on the parade -- they`re in there.

But let`s clear -- but there are many Democrats on local and state levels who actually it behooves them not to have more people in the voting process, right? They`re not as actively out there diminishing the vote the way certain Republican legislators are, but the Democrats know their base, they know who turns out. And especially if you`re in a district where it`s a Democratic district and you really only have to worry about your primary, not your general. You`re actually not that interested in bringing new voters in. They`ll likely be Democrats if they`re Latino, depending on where you are, but they could go for some one else.

So I`m just bringing up the point that Democrats, if you`re interested in moving this conversation forward, you need to do a lot more and not just put it on the Republicans to say, well, they`re the ones trying to limit the vote.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. This for me is -- we`re going to spend an hour on this tomorrow because this is a central issue, but hearing the president just refuse to -- I mean, for him to frame it as a partisan issue, for him to frame it standings there at National Action Network, but let me ask one thing about this. As much as it was exciting, would LBJ have been invited to speak at SCLC? Is there a capture of the movements that are meant to be pressing presidents and lawmakers when the presidents and lawmakers are president -- does that make sense?

CARTAGENA: It does. But thank God if President Johnson had at LBJ, the exposing we`re giving this particular audience, this particular topic yesterday is enormous and well-deserved. I mean, yes, he was pumped up, look at the audience. Pumped up, look who introduced him.

But he`s speaking clearly what everyone already knows. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. The 2012 election was a clear indication that this was done for clearly partisan reasons. Everyone knows it.

The hard -- I`ve worked on voting cases for 30 plus years. You piss somebody off when you tell them they can`t vote. They`ll go back to their house, get their ID and bring back their cousins and everybody can stand in line. This wonderful picture of people standing in line just trying to exercise that right because they can see it for what it is.

GOODMAN: I think the Republicans understand that, that 2012 there was a lot of anger and also it goes to what media pays attention to. And when people get angry, they`re going to do something about it. So, short term they may win somewhere, but long term I think Democrats and I think it`s a key point you`re making, incumbents, even Democratic incumbents don`t want to expand it, they want to keep who voted them in.

HARRIS-PERRY: And long term that structural piece -- yes, it`s good to rev people up, but you want to talk about who`s dealing with structures.

Up next, the essential civil rights player in the Obama administration who also has been listening to Ludacris lately. He`s getting louder and clearer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I`m pleased to note the last five years have been defined by significant strides and lasting reforms, even in the face, even in the face of unprecedented, unwarranted, ugly and divisive adversity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLDER: And we`re bolstering our across-the-board civil rights enforcement efforts to ensure that our work is as strong and as effective today as ever before. Over the past three years, the department`s civil rights division has filed more criminal civil rights cases than during any other period in its history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: That was Attorney General Eric Holder speaking at the National Action Network`s annual convention on Wednesday.

And while President Obama has not had the major legislative achievements like LBJ`s Civil Rights Act, here`s what he has done. President Obama appointed an attorney general who has aggressively enforced existing civil rights law and has made strides to correct past errors. Those accomplishments include endorsing a proposal to shorten prison sentences for many nonviolent drug offenders that would change the face of the criminal justice system as we know it.

He sued both Texas and North Carolina to block voter ID laws that would make it more difficult for minorities to vote, and he has issued a directive expanding government recognition of same-sex marriages to all federal courtrooms, prisons and some federal benefits programs just to name a few of things he`s been up to.

So while we may not appreciate the accomplishments of this administration until, say, a decade hence, that`s because so much of the civil rights work is happening in the Department of Justice. I kept asking myself, is Eric Holder the Obama that we had been hoping for? Like, right, there`s a way in which -- but of course he works for President Obama. I mean, you can`t -- I think it`s not really fair to separate them. But he is like, yes, I sue you and you and how about you don`t put them in jail and you get to vote. Like he`s very -- he`s doing that work.

GREER: I think he may be the greatest addition to the entire Obama administration, and I think in the long term the work that he is doing now, the foundational work that he`s doing will actually pay off in dividends and actually help Obama`s legacy, right, because we know right now on immigration reform or deportations which we`ll talk about later, many people have been disappointed in this president.

But I think Eric Holder with the appointments that he`s made for individuals beneath him, U.S. attorneys across the country, sort of younger, more diverse people, the issues that he`s raising and fighting for, I think, you know, especially with the courts, plural, that we have and the lack of judges that sort of aren`t in positions that are filled because of Republican holdouts and the Supreme Court and they`re leaning to the right consistently, I think the fights that he`s starting we`ll see pay off in hopefully five, ten, 15 years.

HARRIS-PERRY: You said one thing I don`t want to miss which is about the other attorneys in the DOJ. We may not as a public recognize it but those who don`t want to see these policy reenacted absolutely recognize it.

And what happened with Debo and the blocking of that really incredible civil rights advocate to one the civil rights division of the Department of Justice was -- I mean, it`s almost like as soon as I see somebody fighting, I go, oh, wait a minute, that must be something interesting that`s happening there.

GOODMAN: I mean, what`s important here though is that it was the Democrats who ultimately blocked him. This was -- yes, of course, the Republicans were opposing him but it was the Democrats who joined with them in the Senate when they didn`t even need 60 votes. They just took him down and that really goes to this bigger point about where the Democrats are today, that it`s not just about President Obama or Eric Holder and also very interesting to hear the attorney general saying that he alone as an attorney general today, no other attorney general has been treated by Congress like he has been treated, going to the issue of race.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, actually I want to listen to him in this interaction with Gohmert earlier this week because it was one of those moment you get a sense of how ugly the treatment has been.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: I realize that contempt is not a big deal to our attorney general, but it is important that we have proper oversight.

HOLDER: You should not assume that that is not a big deal to me. I think that it was inappropriate. I think it was unjust. But never think that that was not a big deal to me. Don`t ever think that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Man, I was standing on the side, yeah. You don`t -- you don`t want to go there.

CARTAGENA: Right.

HARRIS-PERRY: That was kind of a lovely moment.

REYES: Yes. And I was so glad that you showed the earlier clip of Holder saying that no one else has been treated as he was, which I was a little surprised that he went there. But when I see Eric Holder now, I just think back to when Alberto Gonzalez was attorney general.

Now, he presided over the DOJ when it was totally politicized. Partisanship was pretty much a requirement to get into the DOJ at that time, there was all these different scandals. And yet, during that time, Democrats held back at going after him because there was that sense that, well, he`s the first Latino attorney general and that would look bad.

And yet, now, with Attorney General Eric Holder, if anything, it seems as though Republicans are emboldened to go after Attorney General Holder as an African-American, that gives them this free rein for this -- really, he`s right -- unparalleled disrespect that he is enduring in this office.

HARRIS-PERRY: And it could be about him being African-American, I think there`s a hypothesis that`s at the table. I think the other possibility is that it could be about how aggressively he and effectively he is at the core of implementing this.

When we come back, I`m going to come to the issue you tried to take us to on the very first question, which is immigration and the extent to which civil rights as a central issue of our day right now is about immigration.

We`re going to ask this question, why is there a hunger strike in fronting of the White House right now?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Half a century later, the law`s LBJ passed are now as fundamental to our conception of ourselves and our democracy as the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. They are foundational, an essential piece of the American character.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: When President Obama was at the civil rights summit on Thursday praised Lyndon Baines Johnson`s signature accomplishment, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, he also touted what came after it, the Voting Rights Act, Fair Housing act and immigration reform. That last one, immigration reform, is something that President Obama has also placed high on his agenda, but it`s something he hasn`t been able to accomplish despite bipartisan legislation passed by the Senate and calls for immigration reform by prominent Republicans like Jeb Bush.

And in the meantime, President Obama has continued the trend set by another Bush, President George W. Bush, with his administration`s aggressive detention and deportation of unauthorized immigrants from the United States since he took office in 2009. According to Vox.com last year, undocumented immigrant removal occurred at a pace of 1,010 persons per day. If the deportations continued at the pace here, that means that the 2 millionth deportation likely happened sometime in the middle of last month.

In the last seven days, new pressure has been applied to the president to bypass congress and use his executive power to stop or at least slow deportations and detentions. There was last Saturday`s day of action during which protesters rallied across the country. The president spoke in Austin on Thursday. Some immigration reform activists chained themselves to a statue of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on the University of Texas campus. At least three people were arrested.

And the cry for the president to take executive action is being issued right in front of his own house. Three people have staged a hunger strike since Tuesday in front of the White House, demanding their loved ones be released from immigration detention. One of the activists, 18-year-old Cynthia Diaz, is taking time away from her studies at the University of Arizona to protest the detention of her mother, Ria del Rosario Rodriguez who has been in detention since March.

Cynthia joins us now from Washington.

Nice to have you.

CYNTHIA DIAZ, HUNGER STRIKE ACTIVIST: Hi. Thank you for having me.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, Cynthia, you are currently right now hunger striking, is that right?

DIAZ: Yes, that`s right. This is my fifth day.

HARRIS-PERRY: So tell me why. Why are you hunger striking?

DIAZ: I am doing this hunger strike for my mom. She was unfairly deported on May, 2011. When ICE raided our home, it was a Saturday morning. I was 15 at the time, and I have a younger brother who was 13. I was woken up by my dad`s screaming out, Cynthia, they`re taking your mom.

And I was confused because I didn`t know what that meant so I went to my front yard and there I saw ten ICE officers all over my front yard and I saw my mom being handcuffed and pushed into a van. And then the door shut and we were really confused. My brother heard everything but he didn`t leave his room because he didn`t want to see what was happening.

That was really traumatizing for me because, like I said before, I was only 15 at the time.

HARRIS-PERRY: When you talk about being confused, were you aware of your mother`s status as an unauthorized immigrant?

DIAZ: No, I didn`t know. I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona. I have a brother and my dad who are U.S. residents, but I didn`t know until they took my mom that, you know, she was undocumented.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, you`re an American citizen. You have U.S. permanent re residents in your family. How -- and yet you have not eaten in days because you are trying to get your president and your government to let your mom out of detention.

This is a trite question but sort of -- how are you feeling both physically and politically at this moment?

DIAZ: This morning, I woke up a little sore, so that means my body is reacting to the lack of food. And I`ve been -- it`s been tough. This is my first hunger strike. I haven`t eaten in five days.

But I`m still, you know, trying to stay strong and push forward and try to call out President Obama because we are in his front yard.

HARRIS-PERRY: Cynthia, stay with us, don`t go away.

But I don`t want to come out to the table here. When you asked us to come to this issue from the beginning, and part of why we wanted Cynthia`s voice here is so often when we talk about immigration reform, it`s like -- it`s like this big theory up here. This is about families and moms and dads and children and --

CARTAGENA: It`s about mixed status families. For every unauthorized immigrant in a family household, you`ll have citizens, you`ll have lawful permanent residents. What happened here with this young woman`s family was aggressive, outrageous, unconstitutional actions probably by ICE and home raids.

We should know. My office sued ICE and got a major settlement out of ICE to actually apply the Fourth Amendment doing home raids. What a marvel, incredible application of the Constitution. ICE has been doing this forever.

And now, to see this young woman talk about this in this way, I am so happy you put them on the air. We have to continue to talk about people like this were destroyed by these policies.

GOODMAN: "The New York Times" just did this great expose that here, you have President Obama saying, we`re going after the criminals, we`re going after the gang bangers, it`s not like we`re going after the students and the grandmothers.

But the fact is --

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes.

GOODMAN: -- two-thirds of the people who are being deported, and we`ve hit this unbelievable 2 million deportation mark just within President Obama`s administration, two-thirds of them are either involved with minor criminal offenses like they ran a red light, a traffic violation, or no criminal offense at all.

HARRIS-PERRY: The only criminal offense is the status offense, is the undocumentation.

REYES: Just for the record, we also hear a lot about detention. You know, detention is prison. When you`re in detention, you don`t get due process, you often don`t get a chance to make a phone call. You are separated physically. You might be in a different state. Many of those detention centers are privately run. So, there`s no accountability, no transparency so in many ways it`s worse than prison. In this country, we have people in our prison system who are convicted murderers and rapists who are treated better than moms and dads who are in detention. So, just be clear, detention is prison.

HARRIS-PERRY: Cynthia, let me come back to you for a moment. Have you had a chance to talk with your mother, and where is her case right now?

DIAZ: Yes, I talked to her last night. Right now she`s in San Luis, Arizona. She is in a private detention center. She does tell me that it`s really cold there, the beds are really uncomfortable. The food is not pleasant at all.

HARRIS-PERRY: Cynthia Diaz in Washington, D.C., I want to say two things. As someone who thinks of myself as committed to questions of activism, I am incredibly proud of you for taking action, for being an activist on this question.

As a mom and my bet is, although I have not spoken to your mom, but just as a mom, at some point, I want to ensure that you are also caring for yourself. I am so proud of you for hunger striking here, but I also, I just want to make my mom appeal that at some point, please continue to care for yourself as you work to liberate your mother, please.

DIAZ: That`s what I`m doing, thank you.

HARRIS-PERRY: Thank you to Cynthia Diaz in Washington, D.C.

Up next, Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi says race is the reason for immigration reform being stalled.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: We are still waiting and waiting and waiting for Washington to do something about immigration reform, all to no avail. And there are those who feel that race is one of the reasons why.

One of those people, it seems, is House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi who said this at her press briefing on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: I think race has something to do with the fact that they`re not bringing up an immigration bill. I`ve heard them say to the Irish, if it were just you, this would be easy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, so that wasn`t mincing words. The whole Obama administration and the Democrats, that leadership, that notion of race being part of it, and I think we talk an awful lot about Latino immigration but also about black immigration from the African diaspora.

But the idea that immigrants are these racial others.

GREER: Right. I said this when I was on the show a few weeks ago. The face of immigration is a Latino face, right, and that sort of when many people Americans think about immigration as an idea, it`s just Mexico, right?

We have to also be very clear, there`s loads of undocumented immigrants from Canada who are here and we know that there`s lots of immigration from people all over the world. I particularly work on Caribbean and Africa, but, you know, Asia, South America, wherever.

So I think it`s really problematic the way the entire immigration debate has been framed because it turns into a Latino versus America problem. But I think the fact that Nancy Pelosi, and maybe it is because it`s a midterm election year and we know that many people see it as an off year in the sense that they don`t have to turn out, this may actually mobilize and motivate certain Democratic individuals to actually come out, so we`ll see.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, here you have the politics of it happening up here strategically but in terms of the policy, is there anything the president can unilaterally do? Here`s a young woman who is not eating because she needs the president to do something.

REYES: There`s quite a number of things the president can do using his executive authority. He could end the secure communities program, which is a very controversial program which is basically a pipeline into detention. He could end the 287-G program which is pretty much deputizes all these local law enforcement officers with no immigration training and makes them ICE agents. He could also expand the number of people who are eligible for deferred action.

Now, he can`t do it for everybody, and granted none of these measures would be permanent. He cannot give anybody citizenship. But there are things he can do. And, you know, the number 2 million, we`ve been hearing it for so long, but when you actually put it in perspective, 2 million people is the size of the population of West Virginia, of Nebraska. It`s more than those states, and more than 12 or 15 other states.

When you think about the devastation that has wrought on our communities, it`s hard to wrap your mind around it.

HARRIS-PERRY: And as much as 2 million matters, I almost don`t care if it`s 2 million or if it`s just Cynthia`s story, when you hear that story, it`s so appalling.

GOODMAN: You know, Melissa, I was thinking about President Obama last night when he was at the play, "A Raisin in the Sun", right? "A Raisin in the Sun" by Lorraine Hansberry taken from Langston Hughes poem, I just want to read three lines from that poem. What happens to a dream deferred, does it dry up like a raisin in the sun or fester like a sore and then run and hues ends by saying or does -- he says maybe it just sags like a heavy load or does it explode.

This is what President Obama and the Republicans and Democrats have to deal with, with the immigrant rights movement, the injustice of 2 million people being deported, the vast majority have not committed a crime. They are here. And who is talking about this? Jeb Bush.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, I was going to say --

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: In fact, let`s listen to Jeb Bush because it is sort of stunning that the point that you just made has been made by Jeb Bush. Let`s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: The way I look at this, and this is not -- you know, I`m going to say this and it will be on tape and so be it. They cross the border because they had no other means to work to be able to provide for their family. Yes, they broke the law. But it`s not a felony. It`s kind of -- it`s an act of love. It`s an act of commitment to your family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: So everybody stay with me because we`re going to come back and talk about if in fact the world is going to explode because Jeb Bush and Amy Goodman agree on this question when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So what you heard Jeb Bush saying there just a little bit earlier before the break was not an anomaly, he really meant it. Here he is on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: This last week I made some statements about immigration reform that apparently generated a little more news than anticipated. The simple fact is, there is no complete between enforcing our laws, believing in the role of law, and having some sensitivity to the immigrant experience, which is part of who we are as a country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, I don`t hate that. Is that -- so is that the solution for the Republican Party, to sort of regain a foothold as a party that can grow as opposed to one shrinking demographically?

CARTAGENA: I would hope the Republican Party would admit the fact it`s intentional and a part of many of the colleagues to isolate and single out Latinos in the way they`re doing.

I mean, it would be nice with Jeb Bush to also say and admit, yes, some of my colleagues have made a mistake.

Think about what happened in Alabama -- Alabama, we have a federal judge written an opinion that anti-immigrant in the debate in the Alabama`s legislature was code for anti-Latino. It means it`s pretty clear in any way, shape or form.

Let`s have a Republican also have an honest discussion about race and immigration.

HARRIS-PERRY: And the other piece, I guess I want to push back, is that there`s always the sort of, OK, let`s talk about immigration, and that will be about getting the Latino vote. First of all, Latinos are single issue voters, who only vote on open immigration policy, which is empirically false.

GREER: And the data says that Latino actually vote for economies -- the economy, jobs, schools. There are so many other issues --

HARRIS-PERRY: They`re voters.

GREER: Right, they`re multidimensional voters, right.

REYES: But it is amazing we are at this point where Jeb Bush is, you know, out in public with that. Nancy Pelosi in her remarks, she also compared the immigration enforcement policies we currently have, she compared that to the interment camps of the Japanese during the war.

So who is holding the radical position in this policy discussion? It`s the Obama administration. It`s really time for them to rethink the whole enforcement policy because it`s a failed policy. It`s futile and politically, it`s just been absolutely fruitless.

HARRIS-PERRY: That interment camp language is so important. You guess that assumption that certain identities are simply enemies of the state.

GOODMAN: What the White House is weighing inside, maybe they`ll just extend stopping deportations from the dreamers, the young people. Let`s make no mistake about it, going back to the civil rights movement. The reason they got that is because they were sitting in, like Cynthia, they were fasting.

President Obama was a community organizer. He responds to a demand, the demand has been from the right for a long time. Now, those who help to elect them are making demands. They haven`t for a long time. They were demobilized.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes.

GOODMAN: Right now, you see in that most powerful movement now is the immigrant rights movement and he has to figure out what to do.

HARRIS-PERRY: This is really I think the perfect point to end on for this hour. We started with LBJ, this notion of a movement that pushes a president to great civil rights work, ending with an 18-year-old girl who is not just fasting, but hunger striking, not eating for five days, because her mother is imprisoned.

REYES: These people are the conscience of the immigrant rights movement.

HARRIS-PERRY: Indeed. Thank you to Amy and Raul, Christina and Juan.

And that is our show for today. Thanks to you at home for watching. I`m going to see you tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. Eastern. "New York Magazine" writer Jonathan Chait, yes, he`s coming to Nerdland. We are going to have ourselves a conversation about race, politics and President Obama.

Now, it`s time for a preview of "WEEKENDS WITH ALEX WITT."

Hi, Alex.

END

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.END

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MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC ANCHOR: This morning my question, is President Obama winning his leg of the relay swim?

Plus, beware of the pop-up tax man.

And hunger strike at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

But first, separating fact from fiction when it comes to the politics of the wage gap.

Good morning, I`m Melissa Harris-Perry. This week Senate Democrats tried unsuccessfully to pass their Paycheck Fairness Act to help close the wage gap between men and women workers. This, of course, set the nation to talking about women and work, and you can`t really talk about working women in America without thinking of Rosie. Rosie Riveter, the we can do it figure of World War 2. Rosie answered the call of her nation by trading in her apron for a riveting gun. As millions of young men left home to do battle for democracy overseas, millions of women took up their place in the factories of the defense industry, fighting for democracy right here at home. 310,000 women worked in the aircraft industry alone, where almost none had worked before. Yes, Rosie and her sisters in the fight for democracy were critical to the war effort and a grateful nation thanks these efficient, sacrificial, hard-working women with deafening applause and paychecks half the size of the men who worked alongside with them.

And never fear, when the war ended, these loyal women workers who toiled for half pay were indeed rewarded with a promotion to the most important job of all. Domestic technician. Yes, once the men came home from war, Rosie was told to go home and to rebuild the nation another way, by making babies and buying consumer items and, man, Rosie did a damn good job at that too. Let it never be forgotten that it was the Rosies who gave birth to the baby boomers. It`s interesting then that Democratic women in the Senate framed their failed vote on Paycheck Fairness Act in terms of war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARBARA MIKULSKI (D) MARYLAND: We`re leading an American revolution, just like Abigail Adams encouraged us. If they forget the ladies, we`re here to fight. So I said square your shoulders, put your lipstick on and let`s fight another day.

SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D) WASHINGTON: We deserve more than to be left fighting the same uphill battles for justice we`ve been fighting for decades and decades.

SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN (D) WISCONSIN: Opposition to the Paycheck Fairness Act is a war on progress in our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: It also probably won`t surprise you to hear that the Republicans blocked the bill. They said it was not about real policy, but a transparent political stunt to draw more women voters to come out in November. Now here`s what the Paycheck Fairness Act would have done. It would require some companies to report salary information to the government and would prohibit retaliation against employees for telling one another how much they make. It would also expand opportunities for workers to sue their employers over wage discrimination. Now, workers can sue already, thanks to the Equal Pay Act, but it`s a hard road to take. And a woman has to know that she`s being paid less. She has to find another employee making more money for the same job and she has to be willing to risk, torpedoing her own career in order to do so. She has to find a lawyer willing to take her case. That`s not an easy thing to do when workers win only a third of the time in equal pay cases. The Paycheck Fairness Act would address that to some extent by narrowing the grounds on which an employer can claim that the disparity is due to legitimate business reasons, but it still puts the onus on the workers to sue a system that has not yet closed the wage gap. And that`s why, frankly, I kind of agree with the Republicans. You know, they said that the act is a little more a piece of political fluff than to lure women voters and, you know, because for all the talk of women making 77 cents on every dollar that a man earns, wage discrimination is simply not the only reason. The reality is in fact far more complicated. Just look at the White House. Republicans made much hay over the fact that women working at the White House earn on average 88 percent of what men working at the White House make. And they asked about it on Monday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney explained that men and women in the White House are paid the same level -- the same amount for the same level of job, but the problem only comes when you do the math.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: When you look at the aggregate and this includes everybody from this most senior levels to the lowest levels, you`re averaging all salaries together, which means including the lowest level salaries, which may or may not be, depending on the institution, filled by more women than men.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Probably not a great idea to engage in mansplaining - mansplaining, but let me just say, that what Carney said here is, in fact, exactly the problem for women nationwide. Women as an aggregate make less money than men and that`s because they`re more likely to work those lower level jobs. Women make almost two thirds of workers who make a minimum wage or less, and women account for nearly three-quarters of workers in tipped occupations like waitressing where the federal minimum is only $2.13 an hour. Women congregate in lower paying fields. Nine out of ten college majors that offer the least lucrative careers are dominated by women. Fields like early childhood education and social work. And then there are the disparities even within similar fields. Nurse midwives, for example, are 95 percent women and they are paid less than half as much as ob/gyns who are 50 percent men. Maids make less than janitors. And according to data compiled by Bloomberg, the highest paid women at major corporations made an average 18 percent less than the highest paid men in part because women tend to have lower level see suite positions and not that top CEO gig.

So disparity is complicated and due to a variety of reasons that require a variety of solutions. Like raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, guaranteeing paid parental leave, instituting Universal Pre-K. Joining me now, Bryce Covert who`s the economic policy editor at ThinkProgress and a contributor at "The Nation," Rick Newman, who`s columnist at Yahoo Finance. Christina Greer, who`s assistant professor at Fordham University and author of "Black Ethnics Race: Immigration and Pursuit of the American dream." And Nomi Prins who`s the senior fellow at Demos and author of a great new book "All the President`s Bankers, the Hidden Alliances That Drive American Power." So nice to have you all here.

CHRISTINA GREER, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Thank you.

NAOMI PRINCE: Thank you.

HARRIS-PERRY: Bryce, I`m going to start with you. So, on the one hand, like I`m down with the Paycheck Fairness Act - (INAUDIBLE) It will make things worse. But I`m not completely against the Republicans` point that it`s maybe a little more politics than it is substantively getting to this complicated set of questions.

BRYCE COVERT, THINK PROGRESS: Yeah, I want to give the Republicans two points. One is that I do think the idea that the Paycheck Fairness Act or the Lilly Ledbetter Act are silver bullets that will just close the wage gap. That just doesn`t live up to reality. We need, like you said, I loved all the solutions that you put forward.

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, my liberal utopia that I would build.

COVERT: I would build it with you. I also think that they have a point. You know, they have been pushing back on the idea that there is a wage gap. I wouldn`t give them that point, but I would give them the point that it`s complicated and saying that the 77 percent earnings that women make compared to men is all discrimination, is misleading. And I think that that number gets thrown around without a whole lot of context.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, so on the one hand, like I want to be able just to make that point because it`s so important that it`s not just, you know, the male manager up there, you know, HR manager who`s making a decision to pay the little woman less. On the other hand, it doesn`t mean that discrimination like - you know, that sort of base of discrimination is gone. It does in fact continue to exist in the workforce.

NOMI PRINS, AUTHOR, "ALL THE PRESIDENT`S BANKERS": Well, exactly. And as you mentioned, the power relationship in the workforce, particularly at the positions that are higher in companies and in the companies that themselves make more money, for example, in banking, the top six banks have always been run by men. The managing partners are traditionally mostly men and that has been the case historically. So, and that`s where the money is. So you filter that out through the issue of the framework of why women also don`t have as much money as men in terms of their paychecks. Well, they also don`t have as much power. And that is a big part of the complexity of the issue.

HARRIS-PERRY: So let me take that point around power, Christina. And come in part to what I see as maybe the most distressing thing that happens when we do the aggregate - men versus women. And that is that we forget that - or what that can do is generate a sense of false solidarity that all women are all necessarily in the same circumstance of unfairness. So even if there`s a general sense of unfairness, if in fact my H.R. manager or my direct supervisor or the woman whose kitchen I clean is a woman, she nonetheless might be engaging with me in a way that is unfair as her employee.

GREER: Right. I think the historical context is really important. Because we also - we constantly throw around this 77 cents to a dollar conversation, but we do also know that there`s a very real racial divide also within this, right? So if white women for the most part are making 77 cents on the dollar, we know that black and Latina women are making much less.

HARRIS-PERRY: In fact, let me show you those numbers. So do we have - Because 77 is the number we`ve been hearing. But when we look at the race gap, the wage gap from African-American women, if we compare it to white men`s earnings, they only make 64 percent of what white men earn. 89 percent of what black men earn and 82 percent of what white women earn. So we see African-American women on the bottom there. Bu then also look at Latinas. And the earning for Latinas there - for compared to white men is 53 percent, right? And that is probably not because there are Latina CEOs who are being paid less. That has everything to do with a structured market that puts those women, black and Latina women in a different ...

GREER: But it`s also - a structured market, right? When we think about FDR, I mean the way he was able to get the new deal passed, is to really just sell black women down the river literally, right? And so he excludes domestic workers. So, now we have a historical conversation about wealth, right? Wealth, race and gender that goes across time and so we see people sort of stuck in sectors. I mean not just early childhood education and social work, but we also see the replication of poverty and replication of lower wage jobs. So I think we also have to make sure we historicize some of these inequities. Because they are not going to erase overnight. I mean I, you know, I do somewhat agree with the Republicans, but there is something to be said about symbolic legislation every now and again. Right? I mean we saw this with Apartheid legislation in the `80s and, you know, it seemed ridiculous, but over time it can sort of move progress a little bit more.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, this is an interesting point, that even as I have a critique of the Democrats on the Paycheck Fairness Act, the fact is I don`t have any idea what the right might be offering as an alternative.

RICK NEWMAN, YAHOO! FINANCE: That`s right. Well, let`s think about a way you might actually get something like this to pass. I mean here`s an idea. So, one GOP objection is look, we can`t put yet another burden on businesses. There`s actually some legitimacy to that. I mean if you talk to business owners, they really are drowning in regulation. So here`s a way you can construct a win-win. OK? So, you know what? If you`re the Democrat, you know,, we`re going to give you that point. Let`s take away a few outdated regulations on business, and believe me there are plenty ...

HARRIS-PERRY: Sure.

NEWMAN: And say we`re going to put a new regulation on them. Let`s take a few regulations off of them. How does that sound? Could you - is this a possible win-win position? I mean this - It`s not that hard to get to ....

HARRIS-PERRY: This is the balanced budget theory, right? Right?

NEWMAN: This is called a compromise.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, right, right.

NEWMAN: If you really want to pass a law, make a compromise.

HARRIS-PERRY: That`s a dirty word in D.C. these days, in part because part of what they want to be able to do and we`ll get to this, is to say we presented this, the other side is against it, right? And so part of the question is how well does that serve folks who are actually doing the work in these communities, in these corporations. When we come back, we`re going to talk more about the pay gap debate coming out of the Texas attorney general`s office.

But first, the departure of one of the top women in the Obama administration, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius publicly announced her resignation Friday after five years that focused largely on the Affordable Care Act. She was widely criticized after a troubled rollout of the healthcare.gov website, but as she leaves office, the administration has exceeded its goal of 7 million people signing up for health care during the initial open enrollment period. President Obama praised Sebelius and nominated Sylvia Matthews Burwell who`s de factor of the White House office of Management and Budget as her successor. In her farewell speech, the secretary reflected on her work on the ACA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, U.S. DEPT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: We are on the front lines of a long overdue national change, fixing a broken health system. Now, this is the most meaningful work I`ve ever been a part of. In fact, it`s been the cause of my life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Let`s look at one specific example of a wage gap, the Texas attorney general`s office. Assistant attorney generals who are men make more on average than those who are women. Now, that is something that`s come up and been a bit of a topic of a debate because in Texas the Attorney General Greg Abbott, is running for governor. The attorney general`s office has defended itself by saying discrepancy stems from differences in how long the men have been licensed and have worked at the agency. Not so, says Professor Bethany Albertson and assistant professor of government at the University of Texas in Austin. Writing in "Texas Monthly" she says "Based on my analysis it turns out that each additional year of experience corresponds with a $992 increase in salary, if you`re a man. But if you`re a woman, the increase is about $200 less or $798 per year of experience. This discrepancy per year of experience shows just how insidious a gender wage gap can be. So, I`d love this research by Professor Albertson in part because it`s indicative of that, you know, on the one hand you have Abbott`s office like Carney saying oh, no, it`s not discrimination, it`s just this other thing. But when you look at it, no, each additional year of experience has a steeper curve for men than for women.

COVERT: Absolutely. Women -- people often say, oh, well, you know, it`s differing levels of education, let`s say. But women graduate from college. The first year out they are making less than men despite their grades, despite their college. And then no matter what higher degree they take on, they will make less than an average man, so they get a Ph.D. They`re still making less. They get an MBA, they`re still making less. So, we always see these discrepancies even within groups.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. So, that was an AUW study that in part showed that discrepancy for college grads coming straight out and that idea that on the one hand it is that traditional labor market question where women`s domestic work is not valued as private work and therefore isn`t valued as public work, but it is also that even if they`re taking the same job. So, we were talking in the break a little bit about the idea that transparency, which is part of the Paycheck Fairness Act could help this issue.

PRINS: Yeah, and I think that part of it isn`t getting discussed as much and it should be discussed a lot more. Because if you know as a woman or as anyone in a work environment what someone else is making for the same level that you have, then you have the ability to go in and fight. It should be fair, everything should be fair. That would be a great situation. But if you at least are armed with a bullet, the ammunition to go in and say, you know what, that guy is making that much money to do what I do. In fact I`m actually doing it more, but let`s just leave that aside. That guy is doing -- I want to be at the same level because in many cases, particularly as you go on up the ladder on the corporate side and in these institutions where more money is swirling around anyway and it doesn`t even come out in the wage gap because it`s in bonuses and other forms of compensations, you need to know so that you have the ability to fight. And that`s a very important part of this act, which is a shame that it didn`t get through.

HARRIS-PERRY: Wait, I want to push back a little on something that you said earlier. At one point you said, and at first, I was going with you, because I am a fan of actually getting things done and this idea of trade-offs seemed right. But then the more we were kind of thinking and talking about it on the break, I thought wait a minute, we don`t make trade-offs on basic fairness. This isn`t a regulation, right, this is about paying workers in a fair way for doing the same kind of work and providing transparency so that if they`re not being paid that way. So, I just - I want to go back and ask a little bit about that because you framed it as regulation. And I`m wondering if there is another way to think about this. Because we don`t think of basic human or civil rights as regulations.

NEWMAN: Well, this is messy. I mean we`re talking about all these different ways. You can`t exactly put these in two columns on the piece of paper and say here`s the women, here`s the men. It`s that simple to break down. I was just talking about how to pass a law. With, you now, laws are never perfect.

HARRIS-PERRY: Full house ..

NEWMAN: Laws are never perfect.

HARRIS-PERRY: Sure.

NEWMAN: They`re always messy.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah.

NEWMAN: But I, you know, this is - we`ve just shifted this conversation away from policy solutions a little bit and you`re talking about women themselves in the workplace. And I think one thing that`s important to point out here is it`s never been a better time for women to take this matter into their own hands when they can. They can`t always do that. But sometimes they can. There is more support than there has ever been. A lot of attention like we`re giving it right now, thanks in part to, you know, people putting legislation in force and President Obama drawing attention to this, to this fairness issue. This argument in Texas is terrific. It`s great that it`s getting this attention. And I`ll bet you things change.

HARRIS-PERRY: So ....

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: But let me suggest that I think that`s both true and not true, which is to say I agree that we have made enormous progress, particularly for women in the workforce. I`m not quite with the end of men as a theory. But that`s we`ve also seen a regress in labor rights in general. And so I just think for workers in general in this moment with the very slack labor market, it`s hard to make an argument about the power of any laborer to negotiate vis-…-vis, right, their employer at this moment.

GREER: Well, I mean we know that we`re right now in a moment where it`s a war on poor people. It really is a war on women. I mean the fundamental principles of American democracy are not based on fairness, they`re based on economic inequality. And so, for us to sort of not really think about, you know, the 1700s, 1800s and all the ways, in which the fabric of this nation is about. So this economic inequality and making sure that the exclusion of others to a certain extent benefits you.

HARRIS-PERRY: This is an argument vis-a-vis chain on race but you`re making it around gender. That there is - that even though we have the kind of soaring ideals in our rhetoric, that in practice we have always seen this kind of interweaving inequality.

GREER: Right. And we know that this intersectionality exists. So if it exists not just on a black/white spectrum, not just on a male/female spectrum, right? And so you have all these other groups now that are into it. And so, for us to start these conversations, yes, they`re productive, but like the policies themselves, there isn`t going to be a magic bullet and it`s going to take a series of various policies but also it`s going to take even more time, right. And so the question is how long do women have to wait, right? I mean a student just wrote a fantastic paper about how women are taxed on sanitary products, because it`s a luxury good. So even these minor things just erode at women`s sort of financial security.

HARRIS-PERRY: I love that you said intersectional because there`s a little bit of a drinking game that goes on in my control room around the use of the word intersectional. It`s almost always me, but see, it was my guest this time.

Up next, the type of Republican lawmaker Democrats just love to hate. The argument that Democrats love to make.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKULSKI: It brings tears to my eyes to know how women every single day are working so hard and are getting paid less. It makes me emotional to hear that. Then when I hear all of these phony reasons, some are mean and some are meaningless, I do get emotional. I get angry, I get outraged, I get volcanic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So if you`re a political party trying to get women to the polls, Democrats have at least a two-pronged strategy. One, to offer policies that they can say will improve the lives of women, like the Paycheck Fairness Act, we`ve been talking about, but the second prong is to sit back and just let Republicans say stuff like what one Missouri state representative said this week in defense of a proposed 72-hour waiting period for abortion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE REP. CHUCK GATSCHENBERGER (R ) MISSOURI: Even when I buy a new vehicle, this is my experience again, I don`t go right in there and say I want to buy that vehicle and then you walk -- you know, you leave with it. I have to look at it, get information about it, maybe drive it, you know, a lot of different things, check prices. There`s a lot of things that I do - into a decision, whether that`s a car, whether that`s a house, whether that`s any major decision that I put in my life, even carpeting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Even carpeting. So, look, there are -- you know, I don`t want to - I don`t want to - by the notion that all women are pro reproductive justice, they aren`t. But even women who oppose abortion may not really like a state representative, oh, well, you know, it`s kind of like you`ve got to at least make as much sense as I do when I buy a car or carpeting. Like isn`t this precisely the kind of strategy that Democrats are like, yeah, just keep talking because you end up being alienated.

NEWMAN: You wonder if some of these people have ever met a woman.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, they all have daughters.

NEWMAN: Have they ever talked to one?

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah.

COVERT: Well, I think interestingly in that clip he`s kind of making his own point. We don`t regulate his decision to make a car or to buy carpeting. They`re big decisions and we don`t tell you how to make it.

But look - yeah, I think ...

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, I love that. Men could all have a 72-hour waiting period before being able to purchase a car. That ...

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

NEWMAN: Don`t make an impulse run.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, don`t make an impulse - right.

COVERT: But yeah, there`s this strategy that`s just sort of saying back and leaving them - say - the things that they are going to say, but what that does, is it ends up putting you on a defense, right? You`re always sort of playing on the extremist`s turf and it`s harder, I think, to move from that and then say, but here`s what we`re going to do proactively. Here`s our vision. Here`s the bills we want to pass that don`t just react to Todd Akin or this guy.

But they try to build the progressive utopia.

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, that`s - don`t say - I`m not that I think President Obama is trying to build a progressive utopia, but he`s gotten so increasingly progressive in his discourse around this. I want to listen to him in his weekly address which was released today talking about kind of a broad agenda for women`s policy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: House Republicans won`t vote to raise the minimum wage or extend unemployment insurance for women out of work through no fault of their own. The budget they passed this week would force deep cuts to investments that overwhelmingly benefit women and children, like Medicaid, food stamps and college grants. And, of course, they`re trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act for the 50th or so time, which would take away vital benefits and protection from millions of women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: So this is so great, right. I mean so the agenda - women`s agenda now, Medicaid, food stamps, college grants and, come on, there`s 7.1 million people now signed up for ACA.

GREER: Well, I think the real long-term damaging effects, you know, as a professor is that these bickering arguments back and forth really do turn off young voters, the young potential voters, right. So when we`re trying to actually get young people to care about not just financial aid but their own bodies and what regulations mean, all they hear are sort of ignorant comments by some, not all Republicans. And then when Obama tries to make the counterargument that, well, women need welfare or they need certain provisions from the government, then they`re just like wasn`t he supposed to provide that as the president? So there`s not a lot of context. There`s sort of these, you know, these shortcuts and these little cues and snippets and so the larger argument is somehow getting lost. And I think we`re in jeopardy, actually, of alienating a much larger group of people. Not just youth, but also people who aren`t really in the political process - in the discourse.

HARRIS-PERRY: So are we right now failing to talk to women voters like adults?

PRINS: Well, I think that`s -- by putting these side issues and wage isn`t a side issue, but by talking about these little sort of skirmishes with the Republicans and Democrats and making it politicized as opposed to about greater democracy, greater power, greater equality, these are all things that on an economic basis help drive America forward. Women, people of different race, all of us together should be part of a more equal democracy. We don`t have that. These are pieces of trying to build that. And when we have that, the times we`ve had that, even when Rosie the Riveter was doing her riveting, and if - we actually had a more equal democracy. We had more -- even though there was a wage gap between women and men, there was also a sense of building the country together and distributing power a little bit more than we`ve had in other periods of history and we have now.

HARRIS-PERRY: But then also Jim Crow, right? So ...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So, but right, right - no, but that`s all - I mean I think that`s in part always the question of when we tell a historical narrative, sort of from whose perspective do we sell it? Right? So, there`s a way in which like - I love Rosie and I love the idea of Rosie the Riveter and as you pointed out the sets of policies around workers that emerged from that new deal. But then also recognition, right, that where my grandmother is working in the 1940s is in someone`s kitchen, which does not end up getting covered under those labor policies.

When we come back, it is like deja vu all over again when it comes to courting the women`s vote. Some history may definitively and definitely be repeating itself. But first, another update on a key part of the president`s agenda, raising the minimum wage. More states are actually acting on their own. On Monday, Maryland lawmakers passed a bill to increase the state`s minimum wage to $10.10 by the year 2018. Governor Martin O`Malley is expected to sign the bill. There are some drawbacks, though, one of them being that the legislation doesn`t raise the minimum wage for tipped restaurant workers whose rate will remain at $3.63 an hour. On Thursday, Minnesota lawmakers approved a bill to gradually raise the minimum wage to $9.50 by 2016 for large businesses. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So we know that there`s a current political obsession with getting more women to the polls, but it is not new. Just check out this NBC "Nightly News" segment from October 15th, 1996, which if you were to change the hair styles just a bit seems like it could have run last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was no accident that Hillary Rodham Clinton happened to be in Tucson, Arizona, today.

HILLARY CLINTON: Thank you very much. And ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Solidly Republican Arizona is suddenly winnable for Democrats who worked hard to exploit the gender gap.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arizona Republican women for Clinton/Gore.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Targeting women voters in ads and through 5500 faxes sent each month to influential women around the country, they have turned lifelong Republicans like Teddy Langafi (ph) into Bill Clinton activists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, send those faxes out to get people to the polls. So, you know, we`ve been thinking a lot as we`re going into the midterms, going into the next presidential election about the idea of a woman candidate at the top of either the Democratic or the Republican ticket as a way of attracting women. But if we go back to kind of the question of the economic fairness for women workers, it seems to me that part of your argument is whether you`re Democrat or Republican, woman or male candidate, you are really in the pockets of big business in ways that might make it tough for identity politics to translate into leftist policy.

PRINS: Exactly. It`s a good conversation and useful, but the fact is that relationship, the symbiotic relationships between anyone who sits in the Oval Office, anyone who is appointed, not elected as Treasury Secretary and the people that run the most profitable corporations and the banks in this country are really dictating a lot of the policy. And because they are so similar, because they have the wealth behind them, because they require each other`s wealth and power to stay in their positions or to attain those positions, the policy itself gets dictated through those alignments. And so these - we`re trying to chip away with the other issues on the outside of what`s a very central core of alive power between corporations and people in the White House.

HARRIS-PERRY: So one can be happy to have Yellen, for example, in the Fed position, but her being a woman does not necessarily lead to different monetary policy.

PRINS: Exactly right. She`s doing exactly what Ben Bernanke did and she has no choice. And anyone in that position whether they are a woman or a man would be doing the same thing, which is subsidizing the banking system at the expense of the greater and broader populations.

NEWMAN: We have - Something is really important here. I mean there has been a shift in the balance of power in the economy away from employees and workers to employers, and especially big employers. It`s not hopeless for workers, but really important to know is we`re talking about, you know, policies that will improve things. The thing that will improve people`s position, men and women both, is more skills, the skills that matter. This is just crucially important today. You know, just saying can you please pay me a little bit more isn`t getting anywhere for men or women alike. What gets you somewhere say I have some new skill that`s going to help the company. Here`s what I can contribute. I`m going to make a better contribution. This is how -- this is how people get ahead these days. It`s really important to keep in mind.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, interestingly - it`s interesting, because in part like immediately you start thinking about different kinds of work that are related there, so there`s a way in which if you are the Walmart greeter or the McDonald`s cashier, and we know this - I know we think these are teenagers, these are not, right, these are adult workers. We want new skill do you bring - so, if you`re in that part of the labor market, you`re kind of stuck in this minimum wage space. But if you`re in another part of the labor market, it actually might be a fine time to be able to negotiate because there are lower numbers of high skilled workers, right, compared to the jobs that are available.

NEWMAN: It depends where you are geographically. And it depends what industry you`re in, but everybody can get more skills. I mean you don`t have to go to college and spend $200,000 to get more skills. There are things people can do. The community colleges, you can find programs that are where - community colleges will align with businesses because businesses need such and such a worker so they`ll help programs. I mean you have to do a lot of research. It`s not going to land in your lap. But that is the way the economy is these days.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, but I wonder about that, Bryce, in part, because, you know, so I don`t want to move away from this idea that part of the responsibility for individuals to invest in themselves, but it`s also an investment in the sort of broader perspective to have a good workforce. Should there be government -- part of what the president said was college loans, and he doesn`t mean just, you know, come to Wake Forest University and get a B.A., he does mean making available community colleges.

COVERT: Well, I want to point out that when we`re talking about skills, even among high-skilled jobs, the ones that are dominated by women are paid about $470 less a week than the ones dominated by men. So we are still talking about are we valuing the high skill jobs that women can get and tend to get. But of course, I mean I think we want to help women move into stem fields, for example. They`re in high demand, they`re incredibly important skills and we see women are less represented there. And we also see not only a smaller pipeline, but it dribbles out. Women do not stick with it and I think it`s because it conflicts with family, there`s a lot of discrimination. There`s a lot of stuff that works against them.

HARRIS-PERRY: We can spend all day on the stem thing. Because on the one hand, yes, more women in stem but also why should stem be the only ones - like this goes back to your point of valuing what kinds of labor.

After the break, the state passing legislation to make criminals out of mothers. My letter of the week is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: This week the Tennessee state legislature passed a bill that would allow drug addicted pregnant women to be prosecuted as criminals. Now, the bill would permit a woman who used illegal drugs during pregnancy to be charged with assault if her child is born addicted to or harmed by the drug. And to be charged with homicide if the child dies. It would also allow women to avoid those charges if they volunteer for drug treatment. But before Tennessee`s governor makes it official with his signature, I wanted to urge him to consider that this proposed solution may only exacerbate the problem that his state is trying to solve.

Dear Governor Bill Haslam, it`s me, Melissa. Now, I understand the magnitude of the crisis facing your state and how daunting it must feel. Last year a report found that in Tennessee babies born addicted to opiate drugs that their mothers took during pregnancy was higher than ever before. But governor, as you think about what you`re going to do with that bill that`s on your desk, please take a moment to consider that punishment is no substitute for protection. Particularly when the threat of that punishment could put the health and well-being of vulnerable people, both the babies and their mothers, at even greater risk.

As you have already no doubt heard from the national medical groups that have weighed in on this bill, this proposal could have the exact opposite effect of its intent of improving health outcomes for babies of drug-addicted mothers. According to a statement released by the American Medical Association, pregnant women will be likely to avoid seeking prenatal or open medical care for fear that their physician`s knowledge of substance abuse or other potentially harmful behavior could result in a jail sentence rather than proper medical treatment.

So, governor, any government intervention to address drug dependency among pregnant women and their children must treat that addiction like what it is, a disease. And helping mothers to battle their disease requires a treatment-based approach that must first do no harm by ensuring they`re not deterred from prenatal care. That could reduce the effects of addiction on their babies. Besides, even as a law enforcement measure this bill is remarkably short-sighted because it targets only those women who use illegal drugs during their pregnancy. Yes, it is true that 30 percent of mothers of drug dependent babies born in Tennessee used illegal drugs specified by the bill, but it is also true that 42 percent of mothers of babies used legal drugs prescribed to them by a doctor for legitimate treatment. And another 20 percent actually used both.

So not only would your law criminalize only certain types of drug abusers, it would also completely overlook the primary driver of the epidemic of drug-addicted babies in your state. What`s more, you already have evidence that criminalizing drug-addicted mothers simply doesn`t work. For years Tennessee was already allowing women to be charged if their newborns tested positive for drugs, but over the last decade there was a ten-fold increase in babies in your state born addicted to opiates. Governor, here`s the good news. You need not look for an alternate policy approach for your state.

After all, the very same state legislature that proposed the bill you are currently considering are ready task, a safe harbor law last year that gave mothers addicted to prescription drugs priority in line for treatment programs and also assured them that they would not lose custody of their children if they disclosed their drug use. So, here`s - Why not instead of sign a law that would expand that intervention to include protection for all mothers battling addictions during their pregnancy. I think that would be just a much better use of your pen. Sincerely, Melissa.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: We are now in the final stretch of tax season, so maybe you`ve been seeing commercials like this.

(BV(

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been (POUNDING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been waiting on my check. You need to do something about this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want my stuff back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard there was a company out there that could get your check in 30 seconds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: That is a commercial from a few years back for the tax preparation company "More Money Taxes, formerly out of Memphis, advertising a refund check in just 30 seconds. If that sounds a little sketchy to you, well, it was. Last year the Justice Department filed a lawsuit to shut the company down, alleging that employees there prepare fraudulent returns that cause their customers to incorrectly report their federal tax liabilities and underpay their taxes and charge customers bogus and unconscionably high fees. Unfortunately, according to advocates, what "More Money Taxes" was up to is not uncommon. More than half of all tax preparers for this tax season are not subject to any kind of licensing or training regulations. They just have to register for an identification number. And the ease of getting into the business combined with the more than $300 billion in anticipated tax refund money has made tax preparation ripe for predatory practices that target low income communities, especially individuals who qualify for the earned income tax credit.

Joining me now to explain why this happens and what we can do about it is Stephen Black, Director of the Center for Ethics and Social Responsibility at the University of Alabama. He`s also the founder and president of Impact Alabama, which trains students to provide free tax preparation services for low income families. Good morning, Stephen.

STEPHEN BLACK, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

HARRIS-PERRY: Absolutely. So start with the earned income tax credit. Explain why that is such an issue in this predatory practice.

BLACK: Well, that`s the basis for the entire industry. Something that a lot of people don`t appreciate. The earned income tax credit is the single largest federal anti-poverty program. And I think it really doesn`t get that much attention and press because it`s one of those rare initiatives, probably the singular substantive federal tax initiative policy that enjoys bipartisan support. President Reagan was a big supporter, President Clinton grew it. It`s a refundable credit to families. I think it`s not controversial to say, sort of welfare reform because it leaves the debate about welfare to the side. You only qualify for it if you`re working and most of it goes to working parents raising adults. It`s a huge amount of money that pours into low income communities in about an eight-week period in the last part of January through March all over the country. The challenge is between 65 and 70 percent of these families feel as though they need professional help. They`re intimidated by the IRS, they don`t want to mess up, they don`t want to get it wrong and they don`t have access to CPAs, to accountants the way upper income families do because CPAs are not in the business of doing very simple returns where you don`t even itemize the return.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. And so when you say professional, though, I mean this is a pretty elastic term of professional, right? We were just looking that for tax practitioners who are subject to the Treasury standards, about 308,000 of them who are doing taxes. But when it comes to these folks who are these unenrolled preparers, folks who just need to get an I.D., there`s actually more of them. So they`re professional only to the extent that you have to pay them to do it?

BLACK: This is the majority of tax preparation around the country that serves working class Americans, working paycheck to paycheck. It`s literally like the Wild West. And people use the word regulation and commercial tax preparers say, well, this is going to be bad for our business. It`s going to - it literally will not be. Regulation really isn`t the best word. The best word is just basic licensing and training the way if you want to open a hair salon in any state in the country, you have to pass a test and get a license. If you want to do nails, you have to pass a test and get a license. If you want to prepare taxes for families charging them on average $300 for about 30 minutes of work that`s not very difficult, signing the most important document they sign all year, there`s no training requirement, there`s no licensing. It`s literally the Wild West in every state other than four.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. So you`re talking about $300 and $400 fees for a half an hour worth of work. That`s a $600 to $800 an hour level. I mean even sort of high level CPAs typically don`t charge that.

BLACK: That`s absolutely right. You can talk to the National Association of Certified Accountants. The average $100,000 a year family, which is not the average family, but the average $100,000 a year family pays between $150 and $200 to have their taxes done with itemization from a trained certified accountant. The average single mother working at Walmart making $19,000 a year raising two kids, goes into one of these places with a W-2, no itemization and will come out $300. $300 is a lot of money for me to waste in 30 minutes.

(LAUGHTER)

BLACK: But if you`re making $18,000 a year raising children, it`s painful and it`s really abusive.

HARRIS-PERRY: I couldn`t help but notice that the "More Money" commercial also had a particular sort of veilance to it that felt like there are some communities being particularly targeted here.

BLACK: Oh, absolutely, there`s no question. And a lot of them will be very clear about it. And liberty tax is another one. I think H&R block is the most legitimate, and they in fact are not against additional training requirements because they do train their staff more. Sometimes I think they get a little too expensive, but that`s my opinion. But the other mom and pop operations and the chains that have kind of sprung from the H&R block model, who specifically prey on low income communities, and a lot of them just African-American communities, they open up in strip malls next to payday lenders and title pawn shops and literally, they`re not even there by the end of April.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah.

BLACK: You can`t find them. A lot of times they don`t even sign the returns for the people.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yeah, they just - they pop up and then they`re gone. We really wanted to get that information out. Stephen Black in San Jose, thank you so much for joining us.

BLACK: Thank you for having me.

HARRIS-PERRY: Absolutely.

Also here in New York thank you to Bryce Covert, Rick Newman and Nomi Prins. Now, Christina is going to stick around a little bit. Maybe she`ll say intersectional again.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS-PERRY: Coming up to President Obama on the legacy of LBJ and the limits of presidential power. Does he still believe that yes we can? There`s going to be more "Nerdland" at the top of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Back, I`m Melissa Harris-Perry.

On Thursday, it seemed as if we were going to be treated to some vintage Obama. The president addressed the civil rights forum in Austin, Texas, honoring the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act signed by President Lyndon Johnson.

And the president wraps buoyed by the 7.1 million enrollees in Obamacare was in classic Obama rhetorical form. He started with the self deprecating humor in which he reminds us that whatever criticism we have in the press or public, the first lady has likely already expressed them in the residence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Michelle was in particular interested of a recording in which Lady Bird is critiquing President Johnson`s performance. And she said come, come, you need to listen to this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: He also gave us some of that delicious Professor Obama affect too, as he offered a compelling history lesson about Johnson`s first legislative priorities after unexpectedly assuming the presidency.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: He wanted to call on senators and representatives to pass a civil rights bill. In one particularly bold aide said he did not believe a president should spend his time and power on lost causes, however worthy they might be. To which it is said, President Johnson replied, well, what the hell`s the presidency for?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Then, the next key ingredient in the Obama formula, when the president makes his trademark turn from a specific story, Lyndon Johnson`s in this case, to a broader theory of democracy and government by the people. It`s always my favorite part because no other president has so eloquently and routinely included social movements in his telling of the American story.

Here, President Obama reminds us that LBJ could act only because he was compelled to act by the people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We recall the countless unheralded Americans, black and white, students and scholars, preachers, and housekeepers, whose names are etched not on monuments but in the hearts of their loved ones and in the fabric of the country that they helped to change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: OK. So, at this point, close followers of the president`s speeches know what is coming, right? It`s what follows the mention of the elderly Anna Nixon Cooper who cast her vote on election vote. It`s what followed the invocation of Seneca Falls and Selma and Stonewall at the second inauguration. Come on, you know what is next, Nerdland -- yes, we can. Right?

It`s the moment the president assures us of the ability of the American people to change ourselves, our nation, our world, as we bend that arc of history toward justice -- and here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Those of us who have had the singular privilege to hold the office of the presidency know well that progress in this country can be hard and it can be slow. Frustrating, and sometimes you`re stymied. The office humbles you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Wait a minute, what? This is the "yes, we can" part, Mr. President. Your giving me slow and frustrating and stymied and humbling? OK, OK, maybe it`s up next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: You`re reminded daily that in this great democracy, you are but a relay swimmer in the currents of history, bound by decisions made by those who came before, reliant on the efforts of those who will follow to fully vindicate your vision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: A relay swimmer? OK, I`m going to need to hit pause here because our president has changed the ending on us in a very interesting way. Facing the last midterm election of his presidency with no other election in his personal future, our soaring optimist is turning a more jaundiced eye on the American project.

Now, he is still firmly an American exceptionalist who insists on a fundamentally optimistic view of the American project, but as he discussed LBJ`s legislative legacy, it was easy to sense that he was distressed that his own legacy would not contain these sorts of civil rights achievements, not because he didn`t want them, but because he faced a 112th, 113th and likely a 114th Congress far more intransient than anything even the master of the Senate, Johnson himself, could have imagined.

And so the president left us on Thursday with hope, always with hope, but maybe a more tempered hope and one that leaves us not declaring "yes, we can", but asking, can we still?

At the table, Amy Goodman, the host and executive producer of "Democracy Now." Raul Reyes, a columnist at "USA Today", Christina Greer, who is assistant professor of political science at Fordham University, and Juan -- I`m sorry, they spelled it very strange (ph) in there-- Cartagena, who is president and general counsel of Latino Justice. Sometimes the pronouncers are actually harder for me.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRY-PERRY: You know, they do like this highlight reel of me destroying everyone`s name.

But I actually want to start with you because if we are, as the president suggested here, swimming in a relay, are we winning in terms of achieving that more perfected union?

JUAN CARTAGENA, LATINO JUSTICE: Well, we`ve got a lot of work to do, obviously. I think the issues that are concerning the civil rights movement in general have to take into account everything that`s happening on the immigration front. Incredible challenges that we have in ensuring that Latinos are also receiving equal treatment under the law.

If it is a relay race, then the next person grabbing this baton better pay attention to this issue. That is premiere civil rights issue as we`re going forward.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, I like that you immediately started to expand the definition of civil rights. Raul, I want to come to you in part on this because I think if we think about civil rights exclusively about African-American politics, then the president has a strong, but certainly not an LBJ level record, right, on this. But if we think about civil rights more broadly, particularly around LGBT issues, this presidency, the years of this presidency will be remembered as expansive.

RAUL REYES, USA TODAY: Right.

HARRIS-PERRY: On the creation -- not solely because of policies he himself passed, but a new environment which he helps to create. And I wonder if when you`re an elected official, you have to not be a member of the group for which you are expanding the rights. Like being the southern white gentleman helps LBJ to do race rights and being the straight black president helps President Obama to expand LGBT civil rights.

REYES: Maybe. I mean my impression of the speech, I came away from watching it that it was so realistic in the sense that he made references -- he talked about history moving backwards, which the first thing I thought about was the Shelby County decision. He also mentioned very pragmatically, he said that passing laws is only the first step, which is a nod to the circumstance.

You know, in LBJ`s time, we had bigotry and discrimination and racism that was codified into law so the policy fight was very easy from a progressive standpoint of good versus bad. Now, we still have all of those issues, but they`re in a much more subtle way. So, it`s a harder fight. It`s a tougher lift for him to move ahead.

And maybe -- I see what you`re saying. Maybe sometimes when you`re not at the center of those issues, maybe it is a little easier as a leader, as a lawmaker to see the calculus and to move on that.

HARRIS-PERRY: Amy, I sort of like this President Obama rhetorically better. I love -- I loved the yes, we can, especially for campaigning, like I said that as a strategy. But I appreciate that he tempered the sort of performance of hope that he often does by suggesting, man, this is hard and we may not be making much progress right now.

AMY GOODMAN, DEMOCRACY NOW: Well, I think the key word there is "we", because with this whole looking back 50 years to LBJ, I think the critical point is you have to go beyond LBJ as even Obama referenced to the movements. It wasn`t LBJ that did this. It was the movements that forced him to. The minute he`s signing the civil rights act in July, you have John Lewis, now the congressman, then a leading civil rights activist once again protesting with Diane Nash and the other remarkable people fighting already for the Voting Rights Act that would come the next year.

And right now, with President Obama, it`s not really about what he`s going to do. It is about what people are going to push him to do.

And I think clearly right now, the movement that is pushing the hardest, that is the most organized, is the immigrants` rights movement. And the question is not so much what is Obama going to do but what are people demanding.

CHRISTINA GREER, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Well, I always look at the Civil Rights Act and voting rights act and the immigration act -- I can see him moving into this. We saw George Bush do this in 2006 when he started to break away from Cheney. You start to think about your legacy.

But I think as a Democratic president, Obama is also looking at the big picture, right? So, we know there`s FDR and the New Deal. There`s LBJ and the Great Society. And there`s nothing really with Clinton.

GREER: So these are the things that as a Democratic president we can`t really hang our hats on, right? We`ve got Monica, we`ve got welfare, we`ve got prisons and we got NAFTA/KAFTA and ignorance on Rwanda, right?

So, if Obama is trying to have a an FDR, an LBJ and BHL movement, sort of as a Democratic president, this idea of Obamacare, this idea of immigration reform really needs to happen. But I really wonder if he`s sort of fallen into the George Bush trap, which is you`re obviously going to really start about immigration reform essentially your last two years in office. And, it`s too little too late.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, you know, one of the things I like about the way that you set up this notion of the Democratic president, we have this incredible piece of Adam Serwer did for the MSNBC where he is trying to rethink Johnson. I just want to read this. It`s kind of long but let me read from the piece here.

"Perhaps the simple explanation which Johnson likely understood better than most was there is no magic formula to which people can emancipate themselves from prejudice, no finish line that when crossed awards a person`s sole with a shining medal of purity in matters of race. All we can offer is a commitment to justice in word and deed that must be honored but from which we will all occasionally fall short. Maybe when Johnson said it`s not just Negroes but all of us who must overcome the crippling legacy of bigotry, he really meant all of us, including himself," right?

So, this suggests that that same tempered notion that President Obama was giving us, when we look back at LBJ, we see these great legislative accomplishments, but it is always still just partial. It`s never fully there.

CARTAGENA: Definitely. That`s the matter of legislation. You can only take it to a certain point. Behavior has to change, and that behavior has changed in many, many ways.

I mean, Obama symbolizes so many things of the civil rights movement. Now the question is for us in this diverse country that we now live in, given all the challenges we currently have, how do we translate those promises into today`s realities.

HARRIS-PERRY: And one way that we might be able to do it would be through the vote, which of course we know is at the moment being challenged. So when we come back, President Obama minces absolutely no words in his Friday speech that drilled the GOP.

But, seriously, you must go read Adam Serwer`s piece up right now on MSNBC.com entitled "Lyndon Johnson was a civil rights hero but also a racist."

This morning, if you read this one thing, you will have done something good for your brain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYNDON B. JOHNSON, FORMER PRESIDENT: This Civil Rights Act is a challenge to all of us, to go to work in our communities and in our states, in our homes and in our hearts, to eliminate the last vestiges of injustice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: So let`s be clear, the real voter fraud is people who try to deny our rights by making bogus arguments about voter fraud. And I`d just say, there have been some of these officials passing these laws have been more blunt. They say this is going to be good for the Republican Party. Some of them have not been shy about saying that they`re doing this for partisan reasons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: That was President Obama yesterday giving the keynote address at Reverend Al Sharpton`s National Action Network`s Annual Conference. Reverend Sharpton, of course, also hosts the program "POLITICS NATION" right here on MSNBC.

And I have to say, when I saw the president, I thought he`s got Ludacris back on his play list because he had a certain -- I mean, have you ever seen him not mincing words about voting rights in this way?

GOODMAN: It was so important what he said -- 147 million votes cast, 40 people were indicted for fraud. We`re talking about a nonexistent issue.

But what is extreme problem because there is an extreme problem is that people are losing their right to vote. What people got their heads bashed in for 50 years ago, right now, they`re cutting -- what is the justification for saying we`ll give less time for people to vote, especially for working people. I mean, when you go in the morning to vote, if you don`t get there at 6:00 and you work all day and you have to go back to where it is that you live, you`re not going to be able to live. What can justify, I don`t care, Democrat or Republican, cutting back on people`s ability to get to the polls.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. As you point out, that in no way would address voter fraud. Like having a shorter number of hours to cast one`s vote would have no impact on someone -- like we expect fraudulent people to show up more at noon than 6:00 a.m.

REYES: The great lie of all this -- when you do talk about voter fraud, these voter ID requirements that they`re passing, these other pieces of restrictive legislation, that wouldn`t impact it anyway because most of that tends to occur when it does at very instances, like through mail-in votes. It does --

CARTAGENA: Absentee ballots.

REYES: Right, absentee ballots. But I just think it`s so important that the president was up there calling it out for what it is. And, you know, so much of the time when we talk about civil rights legislation, the Voting Rights Act, it`s often in the sense of black and white. But as we go forward in the future, the reason that -- the damage that Shelby County decision is particularly damaging for the Latino community is the greatest growth of the Latino population is throughout the South and Southeast, the states that no longer have the preclearance.

So, it`s not just going to be an issue for African-American voters, it`s going to be increasingly an issue for the Latino community.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, the politics of this are important. I mean, Christina, I want to look at sort of the president`s approval ratings by race over time. And you see that, you know, he starts particularly with African-American and Hispanic voters sort of way up, again, particularly with African-American voters. You see it declines a little bit from 100 to 75.

But the important little blip I want you to see for both Hispanic and African-American voters is in 2012, it kind of ticks back up. And it seems to me that part of the reason, Christina, that happens is because that is when kind of the discourse about the attacks on voting become very clear. It becomes not just a referendum on President Obama but a referendum on whether or not we all have the right to vote. You see that uptick.

And I wonder if in part his like courage and forth rightness which may in part be sincere is also political, is also about saying this is the thing that really gets people to understand why they have to show up and vote.

GREER: Right. And this is the thing that will hopefully get people to show up and vote in 2014, right?

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, `tis the problem of midterms.

GREER: And I think we also just have to ask ourselves, where are the Democrats on this larger conversation, right? We have the president versus the Republican Party. But, you know, not to throw water on the parade -- they`re in there.

But let`s clear -- but there are many Democrats on local and state levels who actually it behooves them not to have more people in the voting process, right? They`re not as actively out there diminishing the vote the way certain Republican legislators are, but the Democrats know their base, they know who turns out. And especially if you`re in a district where it`s a Democratic district and you really only have to worry about your primary, not your general. You`re actually not that interested in bringing new voters in. They`ll likely be Democrats if they`re Latino, depending on where you are, but they could go for some one else.

So I`m just bringing up the point that Democrats, if you`re interested in moving this conversation forward, you need to do a lot more and not just put it on the Republicans to say, well, they`re the ones trying to limit the vote.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. This for me is -- we`re going to spend an hour on this tomorrow because this is a central issue, but hearing the president just refuse to -- I mean, for him to frame it as a partisan issue, for him to frame it standings there at National Action Network, but let me ask one thing about this. As much as it was exciting, would LBJ have been invited to speak at SCLC? Is there a capture of the movements that are meant to be pressing presidents and lawmakers when the presidents and lawmakers are president -- does that make sense?

CARTAGENA: It does. But thank God if President Johnson had at LBJ, the exposing we`re giving this particular audience, this particular topic yesterday is enormous and well-deserved. I mean, yes, he was pumped up, look at the audience. Pumped up, look who introduced him.

But he`s speaking clearly what everyone already knows. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. The 2012 election was a clear indication that this was done for clearly partisan reasons. Everyone knows it.

The hard -- I`ve worked on voting cases for 30 plus years. You piss somebody off when you tell them they can`t vote. They`ll go back to their house, get their ID and bring back their cousins and everybody can stand in line. This wonderful picture of people standing in line just trying to exercise that right because they can see it for what it is.

GOODMAN: I think the Republicans understand that, that 2012 there was a lot of anger and also it goes to what media pays attention to. And when people get angry, they`re going to do something about it. So, short term they may win somewhere, but long term I think Democrats and I think it`s a key point you`re making, incumbents, even Democratic incumbents don`t want to expand it, they want to keep who voted them in.

HARRIS-PERRY: And long term that structural piece -- yes, it`s good to rev people up, but you want to talk about who`s dealing with structures.

Up next, the essential civil rights player in the Obama administration who also has been listening to Ludacris lately. He`s getting louder and clearer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I`m pleased to note the last five years have been defined by significant strides and lasting reforms, even in the face, even in the face of unprecedented, unwarranted, ugly and divisive adversity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLDER: And we`re bolstering our across-the-board civil rights enforcement efforts to ensure that our work is as strong and as effective today as ever before. Over the past three years, the department`s civil rights division has filed more criminal civil rights cases than during any other period in its history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: That was Attorney General Eric Holder speaking at the National Action Network`s annual convention on Wednesday.

And while President Obama has not had the major legislative achievements like LBJ`s Civil Rights Act, here`s what he has done. President Obama appointed an attorney general who has aggressively enforced existing civil rights law and has made strides to correct past errors. Those accomplishments include endorsing a proposal to shorten prison sentences for many nonviolent drug offenders that would change the face of the criminal justice system as we know it.

He sued both Texas and North Carolina to block voter ID laws that would make it more difficult for minorities to vote, and he has issued a directive expanding government recognition of same-sex marriages to all federal courtrooms, prisons and some federal benefits programs just to name a few of things he`s been up to.

So while we may not appreciate the accomplishments of this administration until, say, a decade hence, that`s because so much of the civil rights work is happening in the Department of Justice. I kept asking myself, is Eric Holder the Obama that we had been hoping for? Like, right, there`s a way in which -- but of course he works for President Obama. I mean, you can`t -- I think it`s not really fair to separate them. But he is like, yes, I sue you and you and how about you don`t put them in jail and you get to vote. Like he`s very -- he`s doing that work.

GREER: I think he may be the greatest addition to the entire Obama administration, and I think in the long term the work that he is doing now, the foundational work that he`s doing will actually pay off in dividends and actually help Obama`s legacy, right, because we know right now on immigration reform or deportations which we`ll talk about later, many people have been disappointed in this president.

But I think Eric Holder with the appointments that he`s made for individuals beneath him, U.S. attorneys across the country, sort of younger, more diverse people, the issues that he`s raising and fighting for, I think, you know, especially with the courts, plural, that we have and the lack of judges that sort of aren`t in positions that are filled because of Republican holdouts and the Supreme Court and they`re leaning to the right consistently, I think the fights that he`s starting we`ll see pay off in hopefully five, ten, 15 years.

HARRIS-PERRY: You said one thing I don`t want to miss which is about the other attorneys in the DOJ. We may not as a public recognize it but those who don`t want to see these policy reenacted absolutely recognize it.

And what happened with Debo and the blocking of that really incredible civil rights advocate to one the civil rights division of the Department of Justice was -- I mean, it`s almost like as soon as I see somebody fighting, I go, oh, wait a minute, that must be something interesting that`s happening there.

GOODMAN: I mean, what`s important here though is that it was the Democrats who ultimately blocked him. This was -- yes, of course, the Republicans were opposing him but it was the Democrats who joined with them in the Senate when they didn`t even need 60 votes. They just took him down and that really goes to this bigger point about where the Democrats are today, that it`s not just about President Obama or Eric Holder and also very interesting to hear the attorney general saying that he alone as an attorney general today, no other attorney general has been treated by Congress like he has been treated, going to the issue of race.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, actually I want to listen to him in this interaction with Gohmert earlier this week because it was one of those moment you get a sense of how ugly the treatment has been.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: I realize that contempt is not a big deal to our attorney general, but it is important that we have proper oversight.

HOLDER: You should not assume that that is not a big deal to me. I think that it was inappropriate. I think it was unjust. But never think that that was not a big deal to me. Don`t ever think that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Man, I was standing on the side, yeah. You don`t -- you don`t want to go there.

CARTAGENA: Right.

HARRIS-PERRY: That was kind of a lovely moment.

REYES: Yes. And I was so glad that you showed the earlier clip of Holder saying that no one else has been treated as he was, which I was a little surprised that he went there. But when I see Eric Holder now, I just think back to when Alberto Gonzalez was attorney general.

Now, he presided over the DOJ when it was totally politicized. Partisanship was pretty much a requirement to get into the DOJ at that time, there was all these different scandals. And yet, during that time, Democrats held back at going after him because there was that sense that, well, he`s the first Latino attorney general and that would look bad.

And yet, now, with Attorney General Eric Holder, if anything, it seems as though Republicans are emboldened to go after Attorney General Holder as an African-American, that gives them this free rein for this -- really, he`s right -- unparalleled disrespect that he is enduring in this office.

HARRIS-PERRY: And it could be about him being African-American, I think there`s a hypothesis that`s at the table. I think the other possibility is that it could be about how aggressively he and effectively he is at the core of implementing this.

When we come back, I`m going to come to the issue you tried to take us to on the very first question, which is immigration and the extent to which civil rights as a central issue of our day right now is about immigration.

We`re going to ask this question, why is there a hunger strike in fronting of the White House right now?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Half a century later, the law`s LBJ passed are now as fundamental to our conception of ourselves and our democracy as the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. They are foundational, an essential piece of the American character.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: When President Obama was at the civil rights summit on Thursday praised Lyndon Baines Johnson`s signature accomplishment, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, he also touted what came after it, the Voting Rights Act, Fair Housing act and immigration reform. That last one, immigration reform, is something that President Obama has also placed high on his agenda, but it`s something he hasn`t been able to accomplish despite bipartisan legislation passed by the Senate and calls for immigration reform by prominent Republicans like Jeb Bush.

And in the meantime, President Obama has continued the trend set by another Bush, President George W. Bush, with his administration`s aggressive detention and deportation of unauthorized immigrants from the United States since he took office in 2009. According to Vox.com last year, undocumented immigrant removal occurred at a pace of 1,010 persons per day. If the deportations continued at the pace here, that means that the 2 millionth deportation likely happened sometime in the middle of last month.

In the last seven days, new pressure has been applied to the president to bypass congress and use his executive power to stop or at least slow deportations and detentions. There was last Saturday`s day of action during which protesters rallied across the country. The president spoke in Austin on Thursday. Some immigration reform activists chained themselves to a statue of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on the University of Texas campus. At least three people were arrested.

And the cry for the president to take executive action is being issued right in front of his own house. Three people have staged a hunger strike since Tuesday in front of the White House, demanding their loved ones be released from immigration detention. One of the activists, 18-year-old Cynthia Diaz, is taking time away from her studies at the University of Arizona to protest the detention of her mother, Ria del Rosario Rodriguez who has been in detention since March.

Cynthia joins us now from Washington.

Nice to have you.

CYNTHIA DIAZ, HUNGER STRIKE ACTIVIST: Hi. Thank you for having me.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, Cynthia, you are currently right now hunger striking, is that right?

DIAZ: Yes, that`s right. This is my fifth day.

HARRIS-PERRY: So tell me why. Why are you hunger striking?

DIAZ: I am doing this hunger strike for my mom. She was unfairly deported on May, 2011. When ICE raided our home, it was a Saturday morning. I was 15 at the time, and I have a younger brother who was 13. I was woken up by my dad`s screaming out, Cynthia, they`re taking your mom.

And I was confused because I didn`t know what that meant so I went to my front yard and there I saw ten ICE officers all over my front yard and I saw my mom being handcuffed and pushed into a van. And then the door shut and we were really confused. My brother heard everything but he didn`t leave his room because he didn`t want to see what was happening.

That was really traumatizing for me because, like I said before, I was only 15 at the time.

HARRIS-PERRY: When you talk about being confused, were you aware of your mother`s status as an unauthorized immigrant?

DIAZ: No, I didn`t know. I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona. I have a brother and my dad who are U.S. residents, but I didn`t know until they took my mom that, you know, she was undocumented.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, you`re an American citizen. You have U.S. permanent re residents in your family. How -- and yet you have not eaten in days because you are trying to get your president and your government to let your mom out of detention.

This is a trite question but sort of -- how are you feeling both physically and politically at this moment?

DIAZ: This morning, I woke up a little sore, so that means my body is reacting to the lack of food. And I`ve been -- it`s been tough. This is my first hunger strike. I haven`t eaten in five days.

But I`m still, you know, trying to stay strong and push forward and try to call out President Obama because we are in his front yard.

HARRIS-PERRY: Cynthia, stay with us, don`t go away.

But I don`t want to come out to the table here. When you asked us to come to this issue from the beginning, and part of why we wanted Cynthia`s voice here is so often when we talk about immigration reform, it`s like -- it`s like this big theory up here. This is about families and moms and dads and children and --

CARTAGENA: It`s about mixed status families. For every unauthorized immigrant in a family household, you`ll have citizens, you`ll have lawful permanent residents. What happened here with this young woman`s family was aggressive, outrageous, unconstitutional actions probably by ICE and home raids.

We should know. My office sued ICE and got a major settlement out of ICE to actually apply the Fourth Amendment doing home raids. What a marvel, incredible application of the Constitution. ICE has been doing this forever.

And now, to see this young woman talk about this in this way, I am so happy you put them on the air. We have to continue to talk about people like this were destroyed by these policies.

GOODMAN: "The New York Times" just did this great expose that here, you have President Obama saying, we`re going after the criminals, we`re going after the gang bangers, it`s not like we`re going after the students and the grandmothers.

But the fact is --

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes.

GOODMAN: -- two-thirds of the people who are being deported, and we`ve hit this unbelievable 2 million deportation mark just within President Obama`s administration, two-thirds of them are either involved with minor criminal offenses like they ran a red light, a traffic violation, or no criminal offense at all.

HARRIS-PERRY: The only criminal offense is the status offense, is the undocumentation.

REYES: Just for the record, we also hear a lot about detention. You know, detention is prison. When you`re in detention, you don`t get due process, you often don`t get a chance to make a phone call. You are separated physically. You might be in a different state. Many of those detention centers are privately run. So, there`s no accountability, no transparency so in many ways it`s worse than prison. In this country, we have people in our prison system who are convicted murderers and rapists who are treated better than moms and dads who are in detention. So, just be clear, detention is prison.

HARRIS-PERRY: Cynthia, let me come back to you for a moment. Have you had a chance to talk with your mother, and where is her case right now?

DIAZ: Yes, I talked to her last night. Right now she`s in San Luis, Arizona. She is in a private detention center. She does tell me that it`s really cold there, the beds are really uncomfortable. The food is not pleasant at all.

HARRIS-PERRY: Cynthia Diaz in Washington, D.C., I want to say two things. As someone who thinks of myself as committed to questions of activism, I am incredibly proud of you for taking action, for being an activist on this question.

As a mom and my bet is, although I have not spoken to your mom, but just as a mom, at some point, I want to ensure that you are also caring for yourself. I am so proud of you for hunger striking here, but I also, I just want to make my mom appeal that at some point, please continue to care for yourself as you work to liberate your mother, please.

DIAZ: That`s what I`m doing, thank you.

HARRIS-PERRY: Thank you to Cynthia Diaz in Washington, D.C.

Up next, Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi says race is the reason for immigration reform being stalled.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: We are still waiting and waiting and waiting for Washington to do something about immigration reform, all to no avail. And there are those who feel that race is one of the reasons why.

One of those people, it seems, is House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi who said this at her press briefing on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: I think race has something to do with the fact that they`re not bringing up an immigration bill. I`ve heard them say to the Irish, if it were just you, this would be easy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, so that wasn`t mincing words. The whole Obama administration and the Democrats, that leadership, that notion of race being part of it, and I think we talk an awful lot about Latino immigration but also about black immigration from the African diaspora.

But the idea that immigrants are these racial others.

GREER: Right. I said this when I was on the show a few weeks ago. The face of immigration is a Latino face, right, and that sort of when many people Americans think about immigration as an idea, it`s just Mexico, right?

We have to also be very clear, there`s loads of undocumented immigrants from Canada who are here and we know that there`s lots of immigration from people all over the world. I particularly work on Caribbean and Africa, but, you know, Asia, South America, wherever.

So I think it`s really problematic the way the entire immigration debate has been framed because it turns into a Latino versus America problem. But I think the fact that Nancy Pelosi, and maybe it is because it`s a midterm election year and we know that many people see it as an off year in the sense that they don`t have to turn out, this may actually mobilize and motivate certain Democratic individuals to actually come out, so we`ll see.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, here you have the politics of it happening up here strategically but in terms of the policy, is there anything the president can unilaterally do? Here`s a young woman who is not eating because she needs the president to do something.

REYES: There`s quite a number of things the president can do using his executive authority. He could end the secure communities program, which is a very controversial program which is basically a pipeline into detention. He could end the 287-G program which is pretty much deputizes all these local law enforcement officers with no immigration training and makes them ICE agents. He could also expand the number of people who are eligible for deferred action.

Now, he can`t do it for everybody, and granted none of these measures would be permanent. He cannot give anybody citizenship. But there are things he can do. And, you know, the number 2 million, we`ve been hearing it for so long, but when you actually put it in perspective, 2 million people is the size of the population of West Virginia, of Nebraska. It`s more than those states, and more than 12 or 15 other states.

When you think about the devastation that has wrought on our communities, it`s hard to wrap your mind around it.

HARRIS-PERRY: And as much as 2 million matters, I almost don`t care if it`s 2 million or if it`s just Cynthia`s story, when you hear that story, it`s so appalling.

GOODMAN: You know, Melissa, I was thinking about President Obama last night when he was at the play, "A Raisin in the Sun", right? "A Raisin in the Sun" by Lorraine Hansberry taken from Langston Hughes poem, I just want to read three lines from that poem. What happens to a dream deferred, does it dry up like a raisin in the sun or fester like a sore and then run and hues ends by saying or does -- he says maybe it just sags like a heavy load or does it explode.

This is what President Obama and the Republicans and Democrats have to deal with, with the immigrant rights movement, the injustice of 2 million people being deported, the vast majority have not committed a crime. They are here. And who is talking about this? Jeb Bush.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, I was going to say --

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: In fact, let`s listen to Jeb Bush because it is sort of stunning that the point that you just made has been made by Jeb Bush. Let`s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: The way I look at this, and this is not -- you know, I`m going to say this and it will be on tape and so be it. They cross the border because they had no other means to work to be able to provide for their family. Yes, they broke the law. But it`s not a felony. It`s kind of -- it`s an act of love. It`s an act of commitment to your family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: So everybody stay with me because we`re going to come back and talk about if in fact the world is going to explode because Jeb Bush and Amy Goodman agree on this question when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So what you heard Jeb Bush saying there just a little bit earlier before the break was not an anomaly, he really meant it. Here he is on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: This last week I made some statements about immigration reform that apparently generated a little more news than anticipated. The simple fact is, there is no complete between enforcing our laws, believing in the role of law, and having some sensitivity to the immigrant experience, which is part of who we are as a country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, I don`t hate that. Is that -- so is that the solution for the Republican Party, to sort of regain a foothold as a party that can grow as opposed to one shrinking demographically?

CARTAGENA: I would hope the Republican Party would admit the fact it`s intentional and a part of many of the colleagues to isolate and single out Latinos in the way they`re doing.

I mean, it would be nice with Jeb Bush to also say and admit, yes, some of my colleagues have made a mistake.

Think about what happened in Alabama -- Alabama, we have a federal judge written an opinion that anti-immigrant in the debate in the Alabama`s legislature was code for anti-Latino. It means it`s pretty clear in any way, shape or form.

Let`s have a Republican also have an honest discussion about race and immigration.

HARRIS-PERRY: And the other piece, I guess I want to push back, is that there`s always the sort of, OK, let`s talk about immigration, and that will be about getting the Latino vote. First of all, Latinos are single issue voters, who only vote on open immigration policy, which is empirically false.

GREER: And the data says that Latino actually vote for economies -- the economy, jobs, schools. There are so many other issues --

HARRIS-PERRY: They`re voters.

GREER: Right, they`re multidimensional voters, right.

REYES: But it is amazing we are at this point where Jeb Bush is, you know, out in public with that. Nancy Pelosi in her remarks, she also compared the immigration enforcement policies we currently have, she compared that to the interment camps of the Japanese during the war.

So who is holding the radical position in this policy discussion? It`s the Obama administration. It`s really time for them to rethink the whole enforcement policy because it`s a failed policy. It`s futile and politically, it`s just been absolutely fruitless.

HARRIS-PERRY: That interment camp language is so important. You guess that assumption that certain identities are simply enemies of the state.

GOODMAN: What the White House is weighing inside, maybe they`ll just extend stopping deportations from the dreamers, the young people. Let`s make no mistake about it, going back to the civil rights movement. The reason they got that is because they were sitting in, like Cynthia, they were fasting.

President Obama was a community organizer. He responds to a demand, the demand has been from the right for a long time. Now, those who help to elect them are making demands. They haven`t for a long time. They were demobilized.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes.

GOODMAN: Right now, you see in that most powerful movement now is the immigrant rights movement and he has to figure out what to do.

HARRIS-PERRY: This is really I think the perfect point to end on for this hour. We started with LBJ, this notion of a movement that pushes a president to great civil rights work, ending with an 18-year-old girl who is not just fasting, but hunger striking, not eating for five days, because her mother is imprisoned.

REYES: These people are the conscience of the immigrant rights movement.

HARRIS-PERRY: Indeed. Thank you to Amy and Raul, Christina and Juan.

And that is our show for today. Thanks to you at home for watching. I`m going to see you tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. Eastern. "New York Magazine" writer Jonathan Chait, yes, he`s coming to Nerdland. We are going to have ourselves a conversation about race, politics and President Obama.

Now, it`s time for a preview of "WEEKENDS WITH ALEX WITT."

Hi, Alex.

END

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.END

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