It just shows that this project has serious issues. It's very disappointing that they couldn't put up a new interface for the website, but instead remain with the same design that has been here for 6 years is it? Oh well to each their own.

It became quite clear to me that the update resembled the functionality of the existing site and there are no improvements to usability or any of the other areas (that I can see, or experience for that matter). Rather, this appears to be turning out to be a poorly executed facelift on the existing site. Generally, redesigns are for the better, but in this case, IMO the results were for the worse.

This section very much points at the big problem in the project. In fact when I joined the mail list, eager to contribute to help out with making it (x)html 4.01/1.0 Strict following Accessibility guidelines, it only took me a few days to realize this project was derailed and moving in the completely wrong direction from the very start.

The problem was that the lead for this project just didnt understand the main point of your excellent design. It passed them by that it was not about pretty pictures and matching colors, but a true improvement to usability. The pretty stuff was just an added bonus.

From the get go I questioned the entire work plan because it was placing crucial things like _discussing_ (let alone actual implementation methods of) proper HTML, CSS and WAG at very late stages in the development. The answer back was along the lines of "once we have the site up and running we will spend time on doing that". That in practice literally meant to first make a web page and then redo the whole thing from scratch because you "forgot" to actually discuss the MOST important thing about a web page... the user experience.

This made it so most devs involved where much too focused on the back end stuff and didnt care about the front end. It was even discouraged from the very start to deal with the front end until the back end and all templates were done. How they ever thought they could make a suitable back end including the templates for the font end before they even KNEW the requirements of the front end is beyond me. Obviously the right way to do this would have been to make the front end FIRST and then make a back end that fit to it, not go backwards through it and try to adapt the front end and user to a finished back end...

Major project management mistakes:
* Management from the very start not focusing on the CORRECT target, the end user experience, but instead getting lost in back end technicalities
* Management wasting a lot of developer time implementing back end stuff for things that where going to be changed anyway
* Not listening to people pointing out above mistakes

I am truly sad you Aaron was not put in charge of managing the project, because already your mock up images that won the contest showed that you truly understood how to improve the user experience. Assigning a knowledgeable dev as lead for producing a back end for a finished front end would have been very easy at any time during the project if it would have been run with a front end focus from the start. Instead you where only present as an adviser to people in charge that just didnt understand what your redesign really was about.

Yep, this is a brilliant failure ! But the project must be retaken or restarted, for the current Gentoo website -both design and layout- is quite bad and looks really strange. well, these are some of the features I personally dislike: black frame at the top , two navigation menu, weekly to monthly news on home page , text too small, confusing links and titles colors, ugly fat penguins, UFO , right frame with all that partners advertising.

Actually it's quite bloated, and homepage seems to be splitted between all aspects of Gentoo. And this, in my opinion, is a mistake; homepage should remain a simple and clear introduction to Gentoo.

It seems like years ago Gentoo had a contest for a new website yet it was never implemented. Whatever happened to that? I don't mind the current website but I think it's time for a redesign. Also the homepage has become pretty static without Gentoo weekly newsletters. I would like the homepage to contain a lot more dynamic content. Perhaps we could have a short listing of current vulnerabilities/bugs and maybe popular forum posts or a listing of tips and tricks. It would be great to a have a lot more info on the front page instead of having to dig down into the forums.

I think there needs to be a reorganiztion of the links on the homepage too. There are way too many links on the front page and it can be difficult to find things especially if you are new to Gentoo. There are probably 40 seperate links just on the front page.

I have web design experience and I'm willing to help out on this if there is enough support to do something. What do you want to see changed on the Gentoo homepage?

It seems like years ago Gentoo had a contest for a new website yet it was never implemented. Whatever happened to that?

We got a design contest winner. Part of the contest requirements was that the participants committed themselves to shoulder a lot of the redesign ground work with the benefit of being named on the site as acknowledgement, iirc. Turned out the winner did not reassure he'd have the time and so told the team somewhat later...

Abraxas wrote:

Also the homepage has become pretty static without Gentoo weekly newsletters. I would like the homepage to contain a lot more dynamic content. Perhaps we could have a short listing of current vulnerabilities/bugs and maybe popular forum posts or a listing of tips and tricks. It would be great to a have a lot more info on the front page instead of having to dig down into the forums.

You're aware that we have such sections in the GWN!? It all comes down to find someone who actually has fun and the time to do this regularly, as well as enough people provinding content - even if it's only a link to a forum thread with two or three sentences explaining why it's worth mentioning it - and translating the GWN. That's why there is no fresh information. You don't need a redesign for that.

Abraxas wrote:

I have web design experience and I'm willing to help out on this if there is enough support to do something.

Please contact the people doing the website maintenance. Asking here what the community would like to have is pointless, if you won't get any support for a redesign at the moment._________________Please make sure that you have searched for an answer to a question after reading all the relevant docs.

We got a design contest winner. Part of the contest requirements was that the participants committed themselves to shoulder a lot of the redesign ground work with the benefit of being named on the site as acknowledgement, iirc. Turned out the winner did not reassure he'd have the time and so told the team somewhat later...

So it looks like there is no real plans for a new site or layout then which was my point to begin with.

Quote:

You're aware that we have such sections in the GWN!? It all comes down to find someone who actually has fun and the time to do this regularly, as well as enough people provinding content - even if it's only a link to a forum thread with two or three sentences explaining why it's worth mentioning it - and translating the GWN. That's why there is no fresh information. You don't need a redesign for that.

I am aware of that but since GWN isn't published on any kind of regular basis it would be eaiser and much more useful to create a dynamic page that updated these things automatically

Quote:

Please contact the people doing the website maintenance. Asking here what the community would like to have is pointless, if you won't get any support for a redesign at the moment.

I was just trying to get an idea of what people would want so I would have something to pitch, with USER support. That's what this is all about, the USERS. I guess if I am going to get this kind of reaction I should just start my own user supported Gentoo website. It seems like a lot less hassle and more user-oriented.

So it looks like there is no real plans for a new site or layout then which was my point to begin with.

Afaik there has been done some work under the hood, but I have nothing to do with the website maintenance.

Abraxas wrote:

I am aware of that but since GWN isn't published on any kind of regular basis it would be eaiser and much more useful to create a dynamic page that updated these things automatically

I doubt it would be accepted as it would mean to present information on the gentoo.org front page without checking for correctness, so all sort of trash could be listed there. For the same reason we have no official wiki and gentoo-wiki.com is completely independent from gentoo.org.

Abraxas wrote:

I was just trying to get an idea of what people would want so I would have something to pitch, with USER support. That's what this is all about, the USERS. I guess if I am going to get this kind of reaction I should just start my own user supported Gentoo website. It seems like a lot less hassle and more user-oriented.

Well, gathering ideas and raising expectations, while you have no clue about the current maintenance status, is not smart. The "kind of reaction" is to contact the people behind gentoo.org www maintenance beforehand. When this simple task is asked too much, then yes, you better create your own site._________________Please make sure that you have searched for an answer to a question after reading all the relevant docs.

Well, gathering ideas and raising expectations, while you have no clue about the current maintenance status, is not smart. The "kind of reaction" is to contact the people behind gentoo.org www maintenance beforehand. When this simple task is asked too much, then yes, you better create your own site.

Whose expectations did I raise and how? You're the only one who responded, and quite rudely I might add. I was asking for USER input. After all a community distro is about users. If you think you're so high and mighty because you have "developer" next to your avatar then have fun with yourself. Personally I wouldn't want to even get into changing something as fundamental as the project's website unless there was user support for it. Obviously the refresh backed by Gentoo didn't get anywhere and I was attempting a grass roots approach. You don't have to like but there is no reason to be a dick about it. If enough people support my idea then I'll go through with it with or without the support of Gentoo. I am trying to make Gentoo better for everyone, not just a select few people who call themselves "developer". After all you're the only one complaining.

I don't see from which words you got your false impression my reply was meant to be rude. Actually you're the one getting abusive towards me, so please understand that I have no interest to reply to you any further.

Abraxas wrote:

If you think you're so high and mighty because you have "developer" next to your avatar

I told you I have nothing to do with gentoo.org www maintenance. Point is nothing will happen without the devs involved, who actually feel responsible for it, no matter who else you ask for input._________________Please make sure that you have searched for an answer to a question after reading all the relevant docs.

I don't see from which words you got your false impression my reply was meant to be rude. Actually you're the one getting abusive towards me, so please understand that I have no interest to reply to you any further.

Abraxas wrote:

If you think you're so high and mighty because you have "developer" next to your avatar

I told you I have nothing to do with gentoo.org www maintenance. Point is nothing will happen without the devs involved, who actually feel responsible for it, no matter who else you ask for input.

@Abraxas
I came to this post after reading your post from today asking suggestions about a Gentoo User site. First, I'd like to say that I like the idea. Some of the things that are currently in the GWN would be better suited for a dynamic website, rather than a static quasi-weekly newsletter. I'll post my suggestions for the website in the new thread you have created. The reason I posted in this thread is to comment on your reaction to Carlo. I don't see how he was abusive in any way towards you or your suggestion. I believe his comment about raising user expectations or hopes is valid.
If you think about it, I'm sure you would agree. You made your original post in the hope that it will peak others interest or hopes and they will respond and maybe even help out?
I have been considering doing exactly what you are talking about, but I thought I should do some research first to see what's going on behind the scenes in Gentoo land before I waste my time or duplicate efforts.
Anyway, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents about your reaction to Carlo._________________Athlon 64 3200+, 80G WD sata hd + 200G IDE, 1G Geil DDR400, MSI K8T Neo
IntelCore2Duo 2.0Ghz MSI laptop,100G SATA hd, 2G RAM

"High performance computing" is not what Gentoo is about, and probably just fuels the prejudice that all Gentoo users are ricers, but apart from that I liked Aron Shi the most. Gentech was also looking good, but I felt it could have had better contrasts._________________If you've got nothing nice to say, you're probably not alone...

@Abraxas
I came to this post after reading your post from today asking suggestions about a Gentoo User site. First, I'd like to say that I like the idea. Some of the things that are currently in the GWN would be better suited for a dynamic website, rather than a static quasi-weekly newsletter. I'll post my suggestions for the website in the new thread you have created. The reason I posted in this thread is to comment on your reaction to Carlo. I don't see how he was abusive in any way towards you or your suggestion. I believe his comment about raising user expectations or hopes is valid.
If you think about it, I'm sure you would agree. You made your original post in the hope that it will peak others interest or hopes and they will respond and maybe even help out?
I have been considering doing exactly what you are talking about, but I thought I should do some research first to see what's going on behind the scenes in Gentoo land before I waste my time or duplicate efforts.
Anyway, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents about your reaction to Carlo.

My big problem with Carlo's post was suggesting that I was somehow raising expectations by merely discussing ways to improve the user experience on the Gentoo home page. Gentoo is a user's distro. It's one of the reasons that I use it. If we can't discuss ideas openly on forums without reprisal then why am I here? I don't need anyone's approval discuss these ideas. It's not like I can just change the webiste without permission anyway.

My biggest fear lately is that Gentoo is stagnating and the home page only reinforces that to me and others. Regardless of the excuses given about the home page being stale after years of discussions about changing it, doesn't change the fact that it is stale and hasn't changed. Everyone knows the homepage is in dire need of an update but nothing is being done about. Sometimes the best ways to get things done in a user community is to get grassroots support. It may upset those in power but in the long run it will get things done and it will get them done right in the eyes of the community. In the end I think choosing to make a user site seperate from Gentoo proper is a better idea now anyway. There is a lot more freedom in it and the site can truly reflect users wants and needs, not just the wants and needs of a few.

Gentoo needs a new front page at www.gentoo.org. It's horribly out-of-date and is probably responsible for turning potential investigators off dabbling in gentoo.

We only need one install/livecd a year - keep it simple and get rid of the notion 2007.0 2007.1 ... etc, just call it 2007, 2008 - spend the saved time dealing with more important matters. Tell people that we don't need to update like fedora and Ubuntu, use this fact as an advantage to using Gentoo. Gentoo should be singing their own praises ... "We don't need continually updated install cd/dvds, we're always up-to date - The power of emerge, and make.profile ... etc, ..etc...!"

The front page should be a single page explaining how gentoo differs from the monolithic distros not the ethereal news letters which, in my opinion have never really been anything to shout about (get rid of them altogether, they waste too much effort). Everyone who uses gentoo, and has become proficient at using it knows that there simply isn't a better way to use Linux - gentoo.org should be boasting about this, not hiding behind an archaic web page and disappointing people with useless livecd update failures. Gentoo should be above all this nonsense.

We only need one install/livecd a year - keep it simple and get rid of the notion 2007.0 2007.1 ... etc, just call it 2007, 2008 - spend the saved time dealing with more important matters.

Updated install cd's are actually pretty important, especially if someone needs new hardware support that is not included in the older cd version.

IMHO - The most important thing about Gentoo is Gentoo itself, and I think it would be a bad idea to take developer resources off the projects they are accustom to working on just to update the frontend image.

I do agree that it would be nice if the homepage was updated with relevant news, but it doesn't appear that the individuals in charge of it have the time to do so, and no one else has stepped up thus far to help.

Brain storm idea... feedback welcome
Since Gentoo is all community supported, why not create the GWN's as a community. We could do it right here in the forums. Each month create a thread dedicated to the next issue, and people can post thoughts/articles about it. All we need it someone to start the thread, and prepare the final selections. Does anyone else like this idea? I don't want to step on others toes, but it may be a good solution to a problem, and get more forum users (even non-technical users) involved with part of Gentoo.