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Gunman kills three girls in Amish classroom

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LE

A gunman shot dead three young girls yesterday in a schoolhouse run by the separatist Amish sect in rural Pennsylvania.

Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, had tied the girls up and then lined them against the blackboard before shooting them in the head, according to police. He then shot himself.

The tragedy in Lancaster County is the third fatal school shooting in the US in the last week. In Colorado last Wednesday a drifter took six female high school students hostage, molested them and then shot one dead before killing himself. On Friday a 15-year-old student killed his school's principal in Wisconsin

Old-Salt

Here in Alberta, we have a number of folks, the Hutterites and Dukobors, that are very similar in beliefs and lifestyle to the Pennsylvania Amish. They are completely non-violent, abstain from modern conveniences mostly (they use pickup trucks - buggies aren't much fun at -40C in the distances we have here), are quite devout and good folks to do business with. Hard bargainers, but they stand by a deal and the deal is always four-square.

I can't imagine anyone having an issue with these folks. They are simply honest, hardworking men and women that mainly want to be left to themselves, so as to practice their religion as they deem fit. They ask nothing of anyone and are very good neighbours, always ready to lend a hand.

Just a very sad, sad thing. I saw on the news last night that the men of the colony they interviewed (they wouldn't allow their faces to be shown) all spoke of forgiving the gunman for killing their daughters, as their Christian beliefs demanded that they forgive. THAT'S standing by your beliefs.

You know what? That is precisely what this incident is about. The gunman wasn't a criminal - a loony perhaps, because it would appear that an old deep-seated grudge played a part in tipping a modest, family man over the edge. But a criminal? Apparently not. So the fact that he had easy access to firearms as a truck driver has nothing to do with criminality and everything to do with a culture that believes that firearms can be ubiquitous, and yet expresses such shock when one separates from the herd and in a moment of madness commits such evil.

It's society that has to look at the way it sees firearms. The layman's argument against arming the British police is that the UK will consequently, see US style gun crime, yet (I believe) all police forces in the EU are armed, and they (by and large) do not have the same scale of gun crime which the US has.

Something I read recently in the Dan Cruicshank book 'Around the World in 80 Treasures' (excellent read & series) rings very true:

(Cruicshank has just 'reviewed' one of his treasures, the Navy Colt' on the ranges, with local enthusiasts)

"...As I leave the range I see the bumper stickers on the pick up trucks driven by these champions of freedom. The slogans they carry are just as articulate as their owners, perhaps more so. One reads: 'Give me the Second Amendment and I'll protect the rest', while another declaims 'If you outlaw guns the only outlaws will have guns'. When people have such inflexible and simplistic views about life it's hard to discuss the subtleties of cause and effect. Maybe that's the point. People who promote guns don't want to argue or discuss, they simply want their view-flawed as it might prove under scrutiny-to prevail.

That,I suppose, is why they admire the gun - it's the supreme symbol of the ruthless, no compromise solution. When the gun speaks you're dead or alive, victor or loser, right or wrong - the argument's over, solved with extreme violence, with little room for dialectics.."

LE

Here in Alberta, we have a number of folks, the Hutterites and Dukobors, that are very similar in beliefs and lifestyle to the Pennsylvania Amish. They are completely non-violent, abstain from modern conveniences mostly (they use pickup trucks - buggies aren't much fun at -40C in the distances we have here), are quite devout and good folks to do business with. Hard bargainers, but they stand by a deal and the deal is always four-square.

I can't imagine anyone having an issue with these folks. They are simply honest, hardworking men and women that mainly want to be left to themselves, so as to practice their religion as they deem fit. They ask nothing of anyone and are very good neighbours, always ready to lend a hand.

Just a very sad, sad thing. I saw on the news last night that the men of the colony they interviewed (they wouldn't allow their faces to be shown) all spoke of forgiving the gunman for killing their daughters, as their Christian beliefs demanded that they forgive. THAT'S standing by your beliefs.

Old-Salt

Thought I had a bit, and I certainly accept that it forms the critical part of the potent mix which is nutter + guns = shooting spree. It is a bit predictable however to see the worn argument about it not being the firearm but the firer who is responsible begin to emerge in the media. Clearly the state of mind of the firer is vitally important, but there is the added stimulus in this case of being able to reach into the cutlery draw and pull out an arsenal which is not as likely in the UK.

That's half the fascination in the UK to incidents such as these - that there is such a vocal lobby in the US opposed to gun control which makes such a glib defence of the right to bear arms at times such as these. I have the right to herd sheep over London Bridge - doesn't mean I feel compelled to exercise it.

Was inbreeding the cause of the insanity? Not amongst the Amish, but doesn't the name of the gunman - Charles Carl Roberts IV indicate that the gene pool hasn't shifted for four generations? I forget these Amercan conventions.

War Hero

Thought I had a bit, and I certainly accept that it forms the critical part of the potent mix which is nutter + guns = shooting spree. It is a bit predictable however to see the worn argument about it not being the firearm but the firer who is responsible begin to emerge in the media. Clearly the state of mind of the firer is vitally important, but there is the added stimulus in this case of being able to reach into the cutlery draw and pull out an arsenal which is not as likely in the UK.

That's half the fascination in the UK to incidents such as these - that there is such a vocal lobby in the US opposed to gun control which makes such a glib defence of the right to bear arms at times such as these. I have the right to herd sheep over London Bridge - doesn't mean I feel compelled to exercise it.

Was inbreeding the cause of the insanity? Not amongst the Amish, but doesn't the name of the gunman - Charles Carl Roberts IV indicate that the gene pool hasn't shifted for four generations? I forget these Amercan conventions.