June 16 Saturday evening – Who are the Real Witnesses of Jehovah?

Isaiah 43:10 – YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.NWT

Is Isaiah 43:10 speaking about today’s Jehovah’s Witnesses? See what the Bible Student Elders have to say. Give your own opinion or ask your own questions.

On Saturday evening, June 16, former JW and Bethelite, and now a Bible Student Elder, David Stein will lead a round table discussion on this topic. Joining him will be Bible Student Elders Tom Ruggirello and Bill Dutka. You can call into this conference call Saturday evening. After the main discussion, you will be invited to participate with questions and comments.

Please tell your friends to come join us. If you would like, mention us on your Facebook page. Get the word our so more can participate. We hope you can make it.

To help prepare yourself for this discussion, you can check out this link: clicking here:

88 comments to June 16 Saturday evening – Who are the Real Witnesses of Jehovah?

Yes obviously when these prophecies are talking about Dragons, Beasts with 4 heads and 4 wings and so on. However listing the 12 tribes in Revelation 7 is a bit of overkill if that is the case.

In that chapter as we have known for many years, there are 2 groups of people mentioned…I believe that the 144,000 are either literal Israelites, or represent the entire flock of Israelites that grew from the original tribes way back in the formation of the Nation that was to result in the blessing of people of all Nations

It is one of those sections of scripture we cannot be so dogmatic about, just like many others. However I now feel the the Great Multitude will be in Heaven praising the Lord.

If the number 144,000 isn’t literal, then why does John take the trouble to inform us of the the great company that “no man could number” it? That the two are set in opposition in that chapter tells us that the first number is literal.

The naming of the tribes of Israel is no indication that the 144,000 is literally out of Israel. Go compare the listing of the tribes of Israel as recorded in the census of Israel after coming out of Egypt found in the first chapter of Numbers with the one in Revelation. The names of the tribes listed are different than the ones in Revelation. That’s because the Israel of Revelation is symbolic of the Christian church which the Apostle Paul explains for us at Gal. 4:22-31.

What the comparatively small number of those who will sit with the Christ and judge mankind is that God sets the bar pretty high and few make the cut (Matt. 20:16; 22:14). We have reason to believe that the Great Company is made up of those who don’t make the cut and don’t fall far enough to merit eternal death. They are pictured in heaven, after all (Rev. 7:15-17; 19:1), they just don’t gain the same high estate as those who make the cut and serve in a lesser capacity as well.

Dupin, remember John first HEARD the number 144,000(Rev. 7:4), then in verse 9 he SAW a great crowd. It seems to me that John is seeing the same thing from two different perspectives….one from Gods point of view, the other from man’s point of view.This concept is not unusual……when Daniel interpreted king Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the gaint image his interpretation was from to points of view…..to God those kingdoms were viewed as beast but to man, they looked like a statue of various precious metals.

No one can EARN anything…this is the problem with this theology and is why I rejected it as an exWT adherent. You aresaying virtually the same things as the JWs do. We are saved by GRACE, read Romans 7, 8 and other chapters around there.

We do not have to earn brownie points as they say. None of us are any better than anyone else, as we are ALL as filthy rage. However as soon as we confess the Lord Yeshua as our Saviour and repent of our sins, we are washed in the precious blood of the lamb and can then stand before the Father in White Garments of righteousness. Therefore we have righteousness bestowed upon us and do not have to earn anything.

Well I do not presume to be one of the 144,000 as it specifically tells us that they are from 12 tribes of Israel…NOT JEWS ONLY as Jews are only from Judah and Benjamin the 2 Tribe Nation, the Lord knows his own and he will save the 12 Tribes, not just 2. I did not think Peter was a Jew as he told me he is Greek…however I know a lot of Cypriots who have Jewish backgrounds.

The Bride of Christ are made up from every Nation of the Earth as Revelation 7 tells us. These ones stand before the throne.

The Ecclesia is grafted into the rootstock of Israel and therefore we recieve the same blessings as Natural Israelites.

What a wonderful God we have, he knows all of us by name and demonstrates his love in so many ways…he wants us to be free and without law…Romans 7 & 8 are wonderful scriptures, explaining how we are saved by Grace and not by law. Romans 8:1 also tells that there is NO MORE CONDEMNATION for those who are IN CHRIST..no mention of a denomination or system of worship or practice…just FREEDOM IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST…thank Father for giving us your SON. Imannuel (God is with us)

Hi David hall you said the 144000 are not Christians but Jews maybe you could shed some light on these verses that show the remnant of literal are not enlightened until after the battle of Armageddon . Zechariah 12 v 9-10 Zephaniah 3 v 8-9. Ezekiel 39 v 21-22

Hi Humbleman, What I nice title you have. I did not the 144,000 are not Christians, of course they are, as they have come out of the GT and have accepted Yeshua…they are Messianic Jews and I know a fair few of these dear people even now. Many are accepting Yeshua as their Messiah and worshipping the dear Lord in their 1000s, far more than 144,000. However during the GT many will turn to Yeshua amidst the horror that is soon to be visited upon the area that we live in. Did you know that the recent discovery of Oil and Gas in the Mediterrain Sea, takes in the waters of Israel and Cyprus. That area of Sea is called the Levant Sea and the Oil/Gas Fields have been called LEVIATHAN. I believe this is all a part of the Beast that comes out of the Sea and will lead to Harmageddon…many Nations are squabbling over the territory now and Turkey (Ancient Togomar) is a bitter enemy of Greek Cyprus and Greece itself. She also hates Israel and we can see the Nations surrounding Israel to do battle with her.

So much happening and we just have to keep watching and praying that we will be kept safe during the time of Jacobs Trouble.

Make no mistake about it, Israel will use Nuclear weapons against Iran and the other Muslim States when she has to.

So what are a couple of Brits doing in Cyprus? We are here because the Lord sent us here, even though my wife hates the heat, we just got through 45/50 degree’s every day for 4 months. When we came in 1995 we were still JWs then and Chris said, never bring me back to this place again…now we have lived here for 5 years and leading people out of Orthodox deception into the light of Yeshua..

You Guys are funny lol. i will post my thoughts on this later but one thing is for sure Christ returns with his saints Zechariah 14 v 5 Revelation 17 v 14 Revelation 19 v 14. we know the binding of satan must happen before Armageddon Mark 3 v 27 Matthew 12 v 29 this indicates to me the 1000 year reign starts before Armageddon not after

Here is my opinion. Just as Christ has body members, so does Satan. That is why Jesus said, “If Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself.” (Matt 12:26). Satan as “the god of this world” (2 Cor 4:4) has a vast evil spiritual government as his disposal. (Eph 6:12). In Revelation, the “dragon” represents civil power. The binding of Satan, the dragon, encompasses his empire and culminates with his personal restraint.

This binding begins with Jesus second presence and occurs in 4 stages: (Rev 20:1-3)
1) laid hold on the dragon
2) cast him in the pit
3) slammed it shut
4) sealed him in tight

After this, Satan “will not deceive the nation’s until the thousand years are finished.” Rev 20:3 His ability to deceive diminishes throughout the process until the final stage where he is sealed tight in the pit.

Ken – There are many who feel as you have said and I appreciate our liberty to consider and share each view with each other.

I do not feel the 144,000 bride of Christ needs to be complete before the reign begins, as I recently explained to Pearl. I realize this is a hard point of view to accept, but it is based on a mountain of scriptural evidence which indicate to me that Jesus has been reigning as a conquering king, as he destabilizes and breaks apart Satan’s empire. This is a big study with lots of scriptures to consider. Much of the evidence is in volumes 2 & 3 of Studies in the Scriptures.

As a general rule, groups described in prophecy and parables are rarely complete groups at any point in time. For example, in Daniel 7 the four beasts represented four empires. During the prominence of each empire, kings and people died and were born. Each beast represented an empire, but at any point a different generation of people may have comprised that empire.

My comments to Pearl this morning provide more info.

If I am wrong, I hope to find it out, but this is what I believe the combined testimony of scriptures indicates.

Ken – Yes, I believe Jesus began reigning as a conquering king in1874. In Rev 14:14 Jesus comes with a crown on his head (reigning) and a sickle in his hand (harvesting). So I think the early Bible Students in Russell’s day were harvested -heard the cry, “come out of her my people” Rev 18:4.

Though I believe Jesus reigns over the heavenly kingdom (the stone of Dan 2:44), that stone has yet to grow and fill the earth, at which point Jesus and His bride will reign over the earth.

So, if Jesus started reigning in 1874, that means he’s been doing so for 138 years already which means he only has 862 years left until he has to hand over his kingdom to Jehovah….WOW that doesn’t leave much time for armageddon and for the resurrection of billions of people!

Ken – Good observation. That is why many think the 1,000 years is future. Some think there are two overlapping 1,000 year periods. Some who put the 1,000 years future, believe Jesus is reigning now as a conquering king, but for the 1,000 years He will reign as a priest and king.

Personally, I don’t feel the need to make this accommodation and to ignore strong evidence that we are in the 1,000 years now. I don’t have a problem with being 138 years into it. America became a nation in 1776, just 236 years ago. Look at how much has happened in 236 years and how long ago that seems. If we have 800+ years, that sounds like a lot of time to me. If I am wrong, I will find that out some day.

Keep in mind that most people on earth could never have a full 1,000 years, unless you believe that all the billions that ever lived will be brought back to life on day 1.

Each person will have at least 100 years to grow up and become righteous.

Isa 65:20 “There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.”

I call this an in house debate and not an issue we should divide over. Just my thoughts.

Peter, what you said makes sense and as you said….”it’s not an issue we should divide over”. That’s what I like about the Bible students….the freedom to debate over view points and opinions…..without anyone getting disciplined or shunned,after all, it would be weird and too “brainwashish” if everyone totally agreed on everything like they do in certain religions!

Peter and Ken are you aware I reading this?LOL I will have a witness here at my home tonight to get a service. I have a xjw here now and my relative will be staying here for 3 weeks with me. My son will go home on Monday. So somebody needs to shun me. (:)

What strange ideology you have. Just do not know where you get all of this from. We are not living in a 1000 Millenium with Yeshua as King, do you really think he would allow Satand and his horded to do the things they are doing to mankind and this planet.

Jesus has not come again, neither in 1874 or 1914 as the WT claim. He has not come in some kind of Parousia/Presence and no one takes any notice.

When Yeshua comes in ALL his Glory, every EYE will see him and EVERYONE will know who he is, or don’t you believe that part?

I believe the Rapture will happen first and that is when Yeshua calls for his Bride in a Commanding call and many who are fake or Wishy Washy Christians, such as the 5 foolish Virgins will be left behind to face the 7 years of Great Tribulation. After that time he will come as THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS to crush his enemies and hurl the Great Serpent into his dungeon.

The 144,000 are nothing to do with Gentile Christians, as the scriptures tell us that they are ISRAELITES and John even names the various tribes. These will only be MEN and will be Virgins. That is what the verses say…we cannot use the rest of the scripture as symbolic and the number to be literal. It is either one or the other. These are the ones who come out of the G.Trib.

Just read the Bible and accept what it literally tells us, instead of trying to alter its meaning and tell us something that is not there.

You are obviously lovely people, but so into strange teachings, that I cannot see much difference to the JWs odd interpretations…

So I just bless you and pray the Holy Spirit will teach you and not some old books from the 1800s

David Hall, I really appreciate your point about the 144,000 not being a literal,I have a problem believing that myself because how can the number be literal if the 12 tribes are not? Something is amiss here.

Sorry Ken, I did not say that the number is not literal…I believe it is literal as it is mentiond in chapter 7 and 14 of Revelation. What I was saying…if we accept the literal interpretion of the number, then we have to accept the rest of the verses are literal…we cannot do flip flops with one verse.

I understand what you say about the 12 tribes and that they do not exactly match the ones in Genesis…however the Lord knows exactly what he is doing and whothese ones are.

David – In Revelation, numbers are literal and what the numbers are attached to are symbolic. The Book of Daniel is similar. For example, in Daniels 7, there are 4 beasts. The beast represent empires. The number is literal.