Apparently LY is to finally start long awaited nonstop TLV - GRU service from May 2.
The flight will take 14.5 hours.LY is also planning to sign codeshare agreements to Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and the rest of Brazil.

I am a bit surprised they will wait with it til the spring and are not taking advantage of flights to South America during their summer.

Thanks, Lipe, but I was just refering to "new arrivals" in terms of new airlines not in terms of new flights/services by already operating airlines in GRU.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):LY product will be very premium even compared to TK and EK in terms of schedule.

But not in terms of frequency because EK operates daily. Also I particularly do not like arriving in GRU 7h30am, it is better earlier in the morning (between 5.00am and 6.00am or between 10.00am and 12.55am).

The TLV arrival at 15.35 also means the working day is gone, but after such as long flight one needs some time to recover.

7am arrival allows for connections with some of TAM network. One destination of special interest must be EZE because of the substantive jewish community, one of the largest in the world. I am sure this flight will be heavily used by connections from EZE!

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 13):Let's see what will happen here. I haven't heard of a bilateral amendment yet.

This is a valid point because the current bilateral (dated 1997 and updated in 2007) only allows 2 weekly frequencies between Israel and Brazil. Flight slots in GRU are also pending ANAC authorisation. As we know, GRU slots now have price of gold!

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):Thanks, Lipe, but I was just refering to "new arrivals" in terms of new airlines not in terms of new flights/services by already operating airlines in GRU.

I got !

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):But not in terms of frequency because EK operates daily. Also I particularly do not like arriving in GRU 7h30am, it is better earlier in the morning (between 5.00am and 6.00am or between 10.00am and 12.55am).

The TLV arrival at 15.35 also means the working day is gone, but after such as long flight one needs some time to recover.

7am arrival allows for connections with some of TAM network. One destination of special interest must be EZE because of the substantive jewish community, one of the largest in the world. I am sure this flight will be heavily used by connections from EZE!

Could anyone inform me whether any special/unusual security arrangement is necessary for LY operation in GRU? Has any such requiriment been made to Brazilian authorities?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):Tomorow EY will offer a reception in Rio de Janeiro to celebrate the new flight.
Probably they will confirm schedule and further details.

Good that they are looking further at other markets. I think this flight will mainly rely on O&D GRU-TLV plus a good amount of connections from EZE and GIG. These markets will probably dominate the load of the flight.

According to IB information they have upgraded MAD-TLV to A340 because of strong number of connections from EZE, GRU, GIG to TLV. I think IB will lose a good amount of connecting pax from these markets after LY starts TLV-GRU nonstop.

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 19):Speaking of connections, I would guess EK's daylight westbound flight is timed as such because of the connections available at DXB with such a schedule.

EK flight is very different from LY. EK is mainly relying on connections from Asia (China/Japan/India) to Brazil while the ample majority of LY pax will originate or end their flights in TLV.

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 19):At first I wondered why the aircraft would be sitting for twelve hours at GRU. Is the timing of the return flight meant to allow departure after work in GRU?

Since you lose a day of work with that schedule or with one that operates ten hours earlier on the return, why not return earlier and get the plane back to TLV sooner?

Or is it about connections

Thats about securing premium traffic and connections. You will note that most US carriers and European carriers leave their planes sitting in GRU for the whole day. JAL sits its B747 for almost 12h in GRU so as to capture the premium market with red-eye schedule.

In the case of LY it is also important to allow for connections especially from EZE and GIG. But it would not make a big difference because there are multitude of flights between GRU-EZE and GRU-GIG. GRU-EZE is the busiest international route in Latin America while Rio-Sao Paulo is one of the busiest routes in the world.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 17):Concerning to connections, TAM now change GRU from a hub-bank model to a full hub scope where main destinations like POA, CNF, SSA, REC, FOR, CWB, BSB and GIG are served at least 5x daily

Good to see this development, but slots are becoming increasingly rate in GRU. Also I think is devoting GRU more for connections and CGH more for O&D, I guess.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):Good to see this development, but slots are becoming increasingly rate in GRU. Also I think is devoting GRU more for connections and CGH more for O&D, I guess.

Hardi at this time there is no concern about slots at GRU. It's a matter of request and get. TAM is adding several extra flights during summer and there's no sign of refusals from ANAC/Infraero.
Unconfortable ? Who cares, the important is more flights, even without more buses to take care of remote positions.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):According to IB information they have upgraded MAD-TLV to A340 because of strong number of connections from EZE, GRU, GIG to TLV. I think IB will lose a good amount of connecting pax from these markets after LY starts TLV-GRU nonstop.

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 19):At first I wondered why the aircraft would be sitting for twelve hours at GRU. Is the timing of the return flight meant to allow departure after work in GRU?

That proposed schedule is screaming for an EZE tag on. I would imagine that there is gonna be quite some EZE connecting traffic on the GRU flight anyway, so they may as well tag the destination since aircraft utilization is not gonna be an issue.

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 19):Since you lose a day of work with that schedule or with one that operates ten hours earlier on the return, why not return earlier and get the plane back to TLV sooner?

They could turn around to EZE and still leave GRU a couple of hours earlier and arrive GRU at an acceptable time.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):Good that they are looking further at other markets. I think this flight will mainly rely on O&D GRU-TLV plus a good amount of connections from EZE and GIG. These markets will probably dominate the load of the flight.

According to IB information they have upgraded MAD-TLV to A340 because of strong number of connections from EZE, GRU, GIG to TLV. I think IB will lose a good amount of connecting pax from these markets after LY starts TLV-GRU nonstop.

= I am curious. Is the J demand that strong on TLV-GRU/EZE market? I know there is significant Y demand form the elgringo.il crowd, but lots of J pax? I have no idea about this market ...

I am a bit surpried abou tthe flight numbers
Usually that number would be for flights to NY
LY001, LY003, LY007, LY011 all JFK
LY005 LAX

1. Why hasnt LY009 ever been used by LY for N America? was it always kept for a South American fligh? Maybe LY009 was a south american route in the past? Would have thoght thy would use LY04x or LY05x

2. I seems like there is enough time on the ground at GRU to make EZE turnaround. Was that ever an option? is it an option for future? seems a shame to keep 777 on the ground for 12 hours! Why doesnt the flight leave earlier GRU? something like early afternoon? If it leaves at 13:30 i would be back in TLV by first thing in the moring. Just like EWR and LAX flights. Both leave around 1330/1400, ewr arrived int he morning and LAX larrives at 1330 (next day).

3. ANY NEWS ONNEW 777 order? Was it decided if they would order 772 or 773?????? I think LY was suppose to decide by December 2008.

BTW - I heard they will be offering amazing deals for the inauguration.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 23):That proposed schedule is screaming for an EZE tag on. I would imagine that there is gonna be quite some EZE connecting traffic on the GRU flight anyway, so they may as well tag the destination since aircraft utilization is not gonna be an issue.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 25):2. I seems like there is enough time on the ground at GRU to make EZE turnaround. Was that ever an option?

The EZE tag-on in principle would make sense (Argentina and Brazil have substantive Jewish commmunities, I think Argentina has the 4th biggest community in the world followed by Brazil with the 5th biggest community in the world).

On the other hand, I think operating the GRU-EZE tag-on with about half-plane full or less would have very high cost, in addition to the airport and ground (offices, staff) operational costs. If TAM can provide LY with interline there is no need to incur the cost of EZE tag-on.

In addition, and I do not want to start politics, but the Iranian bombing of the Argentine Jewish Mutual Association (AMIA) community center in Buenos Aires in July 1994 that left 85 people dead has strained Argentina-Israel relations since then.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 24):= I am curious. Is the J demand that strong on TLV-GRU/EZE market? I know there is significant Y demand form the elgringo.il crowd, but lots of J pax? I have no idea about this market ...

Israel has concluded a Free Trade Agreement with MERCOSUR in December 2007. Bilateral trade Brazil-Israel is not insignificant, close to USD 1 billion. Brazil is Israel's second biggest trade partner in the Americas after the US (ahead of Canada), and trade will grow even further with the free trade agreement.

When I was based in BSB the office had some work with a TLV-based consultancy with travel of about 10 to 20 staff/monthy between TLV and BSB on business, at the time it was all with AF.

Is this a total of two flights a week by all airlines, or four flights a week, with the designated airline of each country being alotted two of the flights? If the bilateral authorizes four weekly flights, could LY operate all these flights if TAM is its codeshare partner?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):On the other hand, I think operating the GRU-EZE tag-on with about half-plane full or less would have very high cost, in addition to the airport and ground (offices, staff) operational costs.

No, there is only the version in Portuguese, but they are actually only summaries, so you could be able to understand at least half of it only with English. If you have some knowledge of any Western Romance language, you should be able to understand up to 95% (or even more) of what the summaries say.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 27):Is this a total of two flights a week by all airlines, or four flights a week, with the designated airline of each country being alotted two of the flights? If the bilateral authorizes four weekly flights, could LY operate all these flights if TAM is its codeshare partner?

Two weekly for each country. It's not possible for EY to operate all four even in code-share.

The bilateral allows 5th freedom rights, however, I honestly do not see how LY could get any pax is this very competitive route. Nowaydays the only airline operating 5th freedom rights GRU-EZE is BA daily LHR-GRU-EZE B747. In any one day you will have about 14 flights GRU-EZE (TAM, GOL/RG, AR, LA, BA).

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 27):Is there an English language website with the bilateral aviation agreements between Brazil and other countries? If yes, please provide the link.

Israel is currently trying to revise the bilateral with Brazil to increase frequencies to 5 weekly or daily. We have to wait for the outcome.

No, there is only the version in Portuguese, but they are actually only summaries, so you could be able to understand at least half of it only with English. If you have some knowledge of any Western Romance language, you should be able to understand up to 95% (or even more) of what the summaries say.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):Israel is currently trying to revise the bilateral with Brazil to increase frequencies to 5 weekly or daily. We have to wait for the outcome.

EY has a meeting with ANAC next monday in BSB to discuss about the flight and the update on the bilateral.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 30):That's all good, but it doesn't bring much. Israel would have to lobby against CONAC's resolution # 06/2007. Every new frequency to Brazil has its authority to GRU denied.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 31):EY has a meeting with ANAC next monday in BSB to discuss about the flight and the update on the bilateral.

It seems that the rule became the exception. We know this resolution can be easily bypassed. I am sure it will be in the government's interest to amend the bilateral and to have nonstop service to TLV (if they LY does not get the slots they may well go to EZE instead). I am sure they will get at least another frequency.

When? There hasn't been not even one exception until now. Note that the resolution concerns only new frequencies in amendments and new agreements. Be sure that if such an exception is granted, the US DOT will be the first to protest.

Hi ! Did you forget the 757s or are they going to be all gone by then??

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):According to IB information they have upgraded MAD-TLV to A340

I didn't know IB was sending A340s to Israel, I always saw small A320s in TLV.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 25): I seems like there is enough time on the ground at GRU to make EZE turnaround. Was that ever an option? is it an option for future? seems a shame to keep 777 on the ground for 12 hours! Why doesnt the flight leave earlier GRU? something like early afternoon? If it leaves at 13:30 i would be back in TLV by first thing in the moring. Just like EWR and LAX flights. Both leave around 1330/1400, ewr arrived int he morning and LAX larrives at 1330 (next day).

Yes, it seems very odd to have an airplane sitting for almost 12 hours (!!) when airlines are usually trying hard to minimize the time between flights.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 34):What is CONCAC, and what does this resolution require?

It's the national council of aviation (CONAC in portuguese). The resolution established restrictions in force at GRU airport and the bilaterals would not allow additional frequencies to São Paulo and ask ANAC to while negotiating new agreements to make sure São Paulo isn't an option.
CONAC resolution isn't a law, just a guideline to be follow.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):There hasn't been not even one exception until now. Note that the resolution concerns only new frequencies in amendments and new agreements. Be sure that if such an exception is granted, the US DOT will be the first to protest.

You are right regarding new frequencies. In practice the bilateral with Israel allows for 2 weekly frequencies. As mentioned, CONAC has not established a law and it is only a resolution in the form of general guidelines. Lets wait and see what will come out of it. I personally think LY could at least get another weekly frequency to GRU.

For example, Brazil has recently revised the bilateral with Singapore and what you mentioned was applied: they increased the frequencies from 3 weekly to 14 weekly, however, the additional 11 weekly frequencies can only be operated outside GRU (while the restrictions to this airport are in place). Once the operational restrictions are removed from GRU (ie T3 is finalised) the additional 11 frequencies can be used for GRU. The same occured with the new bilateral with Uruguay.

By contrast, the agreement with the UAE was also revised in August 2008 increasing frequencies but now without any restrictions to any airport in Brazil. The same applies with Chile, which agreement was revised (increasing frequencies to 56!) and no restriction imposed on GRU.

It seems ANAC is very inconsistent with its agreements. Take for example the agreement with the Netherlands which (for whatever reason nobody understands) increases frequencies but establishes limitations for GRUandGIG! In other words, it also excludes GIG from the new frequencies.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 35):Yes, it seems very odd to have an airplane sitting for almost 12 hours (!!) when airlines are usually trying hard to minimize the time between flights.

This is normal. The majority of US and European carriers operating in GRU sit their planes the whole day, in many cases more than 12h. As already explained, they do this to capture the high yielding market which more than compensates for the aircraft iddle time in the airport.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 38):By contrast, the agreement with the UAE was also revised in August 2008 increasing frequencies but now without any restrictions to any airport in Brazil. The same applies with Chile, which agreement was revised (increasing frequencies to 56!) and no restriction imposed on GRU.

No, the restriction exists, though it's not mentioned in the summaries of some agreements..

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 38):It seems ANAC is very inconsistent with its agreements. Take for example the agreement with the Netherlands which (for whatever reason nobody understands) increases frequencies but establishes limitations for GRU and GIG! In other words, it also excludes GIG from the new frequencies.

There's no long term strategy in Brazil for air services. Every 3 to 6 months the government changes something.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 38):For example, Brazil has recently revised the bilateral with Singapore and what you mentioned was applied: they increased the frequencies from 3 weekly to 14 weekly, however, the additional 11 weekly frequencies can only be operated outside GRU (while the restrictions to this airport are in place). Once the operational restrictions are removed from GRU (ie T3 is finalised) the additional 11 frequencies can be used for GRU. The same occured with the new bilateral with Uruguay.

This is nonsensical regulation. The bilateral process is being used to regulate airport access. If SIA wants to serve GRU at 4 pm or 4 am when the airport is not full why not let them?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 38):It seems ANAC is very inconsistent with its agreements.

ANAC is getting the right regulatory structure in place. While I continue to be optimistic that it will eventually become a good regulatory agency, right now it does not function: Like you said regulation is inconsistent. The other problem is that the technical body of ANAC is worthless. The minister and Solange call the shots, even if the organization can demonstrate they are wrong. In short, ANAC is still some sort of banana republic regulatory agency. I hope it will improve.

Quoting AF022 (Reply 1):What is the routing of the plane? I assume they cannot fly directly over Libya.

Your question got me thinking too. I also assume they cannot fly directly over Sudan? I'm not too sure about Algeria. Taking a look at the map I posted below on how the route may look from a direct perspective, it seems it HAS to at some point cross over one of those no fly zone countries. Considering none of their aircraft can enter Libyan/Sudanese/Algerian airspace - the only thing I can think of them doing is to head on a NW route across the Mediterrenean and once they pass Spain, start turning south towards Brazil? Again, would be interesting to see the proposed route.

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 45):Perhaps the 744 will fly in a direct line over to Spain, then make a sharp turn into the South Atlantic heading for South America.

Or it could fly a direct line into Ethiopia and make a sharp turn towards the Atlantic.

Quoting Anetter123 (Reply 44):Your question got me thinking too. I also assume they cannot fly directly over Sudan? I'm not too sure about Algeria. Taking a look at the map I posted below on how the route may look from a direct perspective, it seems it HAS to at some point cross over one of those no fly zone countries. Considering none of their aircraft can enter Libyan/Sudanese/Algerian airspace

Are you sure they cannot fly over Sudan/Lybia/Algeria air space? Can countries impose such rule over air space?

TK will not fly nonstop. See reply 3 above. TK will fly IST-DKR-GRU with 5th freedom rights DKR-GRU. They will use the A340-300 (2-class 280 seats) for the 2 x week flights. The intention is to upgrade the flight to 4 x week by end 2009 and switch to the B772. TK will take delivery of 3 B772s in 2009.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 47):LY will need to add 1000 nm to the route in order to bypass LIBYA and other Arab countries.
I will look something like this:

So can an Israeli airliner fly over Morocco (I know they can't do Algeria, Libya, Sudan)?
Also, we need to take into account any winds...I'll leave that to the experts.
It's too bad Egypt doesn't have any borders with Chad or the 744 could've have flown over Egypt and Chad (do TLV-CAI-NDJ-GRU on Great Circle Mapper).

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 51):What is the source of this information? No announcement about the new route to GRU is posted on El Al's website. I can't find these flights on El Al's online timetable or on Amadeus,

The above is subject to cofirmation by Brazilian authorities (ANAC). El Al team is today in Brasília-BSB to formally apply for the slots, timetable and hand in all documentation necessary for the flight operation.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 52):The above is subject to cofirmation by Brazilian authorities (ANAC). El Al team is today in Brasília-BSB to formally apply for the slots, timetable and hand in all documentation necessary for the flight operation.

Thank you. Is likely that ANAC would approve this request without modifications? What conditions or restrictions is ANAC likely to impose on a foreign airline that wants to start a new route to GRU, where slots are at a premium?

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 55):Thank you. Is likely that ANAC would approve this request without modifications? What conditions or restrictions is ANAC likely to impose on a foreign airline that wants to start a new route to GRU, where slots are at a premium?

I think the chances for approval of El Al route are fairly high. The only issue is regarding the 3 frequencies considering the bilateral only allows 2. The arrival time is after most European flights arrive (4.30am/6.30am) and before most North American flights arrive (8am/11.30am). The departure time is in the second bank of Europen flight departures (the first bank is 3pm/6pm) but GRU is busiers after 8.00pm.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 51):What is the source of this information? No announcement about the new route to GRU is posted on El Al's website. I can't find these flights on El Al's online timetable or on Amadeus,

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 51):What is the source of this information? No announcement about the new route to GRU is posted on El Al's website. I can't find these flights on El Al's online timetable or on Amadeus,

Some additional information on this route, EL AL first new route after 10 years!

EL AL gave a business briefing on the new flight in São Paulo and confirmed the flight will start GRU-TLV on 03 May and TLV-GRU on 02 May. It is also confirmed that ANAC has agreed with EL AL 3 weekly frequencies on the B772 and the proposed premium slot timeschedule in GRU (morning arrival and evening departure). According to EL AL executives ANAC and INFRAERO were both very supportive.

The flight will be operated with B772 in 3 classes with the following premium configuration: 12F/35C/232Y (279 seats).

EL AL will also transfer its office from Rio de Janeiro to São Paulo and they will buy a new office at the same building where Israel's Ministry of Tourism representation is located in São Paulo (Avenue Faria Lima).

The flight will be loaded on amadeus early in February and EL AL is planning major promotional activity in São Paulo with the presence of CEO Haim Romano.

As per schedule, the final, negotiated slots for GRU also show a slightly earlier arrival 06:30 (before it was 07:30), while departure will be 19:15 (while the initiate proposal was 19:30). I think ANAC has managed to accommodate El Al requests to have a successful launching of GRU!

The flight should be online by early next month (February).

Rgs,

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