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Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part XI)

What’s the most important thing to remember about ‘breathing‘ during Zazen?

DON’T STOP!

Last time, I spoke about how there is no “bad” Zazen, even on those days when the mind is very cloudy with thoughts and emotions. But in fact, there are a couple of things we can do to settle down when the mind is really, really, really, stirred up with tangled thoughts, wild emotions and confusion.

We can count the breaths, for example, counting from 1 to 10 at each inhalation and exhalation, then coming back to one and starting all over when we reach ten (which we rarely do) or lose track. Or we can simply follow the breath without counting, for example, observing effortlessly as it enters and exits the nose. These are excellent practices, and will calm the mind (itself a form of Shikantaza that some people pursue, even for a lifetime!). HOWEVER, for reasons I will discuss, I recommend such practices only as temporary measures for true beginners with no experience of how to let the mind calm at all, or others on those sometime days when the mind really, really, really is upset and disturbed. AS SOON AS the mind settles a bit, I advise the we return our attention to “the clear, blue, spacious sky that holds all“, letting clouds of thought and emotion drift from mind, focused on what can be called “everything, and nothing at all” or “no place and everyplace at once.” I will explain why in today’s talk.

One we return to sitting focused on “everything, and nothing at all,” letting all things “just be” … we let the breath “just be” and give it no mind, too. We do not try to do anything artificial with the breath, and just let “long breaths be long, and short breaths be short,” the breath finding its natural rhythm. Pay the breath no mind, give it no thought, and even (as Master Dogen advises) drop all thought of “long” or “short”! In doing so, as we calm, the breath will calm as well … finding a natural rhythm.

We may even come to experience that there is really no separate “I” breathing, no separate air being breathed, no separate world to receive our cast out breaths … and we experience breathing as as boundless as that vast, open sky. Thus Dogen’s teacher Master Tendo said, “it is not that this breath comes from somewhere … it is not possible to say where this breath goes. For that reason, it is neither long nor short.”

Shunryu Suzuki Roshi once said this about the breath …

If you think, “I breathe,” the “I” is extra. There is no you to say “I.” What we call “I” is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing: no “I,” no world, no mind nor body: just a swinging door.

We might say that the breath, too, is “no place and everyplace at once.”

CLICK HERE for today’s Sit-A-Long video.

Remember: recording ends soon after the beginning bells; a sitting time of 15 to 35 minutes is recommended.

Re: Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part XI)

Jundo-oso;

Thank you for bringing us back to basics; just like he immortal Vince Lombardi ( re; "This is a football"). When I sat with the Shoukoji group for five years, we would chant Dogen's Fukanzazengi in Japanese at least two or three times a month. Since then, I try to read it in English (and Japanese) once a month just to bring back the feeling of the group chanting together( as I do every day with the Hannyashingyo ). I suppose it does a lot of deep spiritual stuff to my being as well. And, as I told you, once in a while I gratefully receive inklings of stillness. Just sitting with Billie the cat purring before me, the clock ticking away the man-made concept of time and the computer cooling fan whirring softly, the wind stirring the tree branches outside the window and a cardinal ( the bird kind, not those found in the Vatican) that seems to think he needs to assure us of the coming daylight, pretty much sums up the zazen experience for me.

Re: Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part XI)

Thank you Jundo Sensei _/_

How is this for a Zennie idea...
I remember Carl Sagan once mentioned that it has been calculated that the air we breath in has some of the same molecules breathed out by countless others. You can pick just about anyone throughout history. At this very moment know, that on a molecular level, you are quite literally breathing the same air which has entered and exited their lungs.
Interconnection!

I am really going to try to keep my eyes partially open as you mentioned. I find that I am struggling with the eyelid muscles as my concentration wants to naturally (or unnaturally) fixate on that area.

I am really going to try to keep my eyes partially open as you mentioned. I find that I am struggling with the eyelid muscles as my concentration wants to naturally (or unnaturally) fixate on that area.

I found it very difficult at first and still do if I'm tired, but it does get easier over time.

Gassho,
Dosho

Ordained Priest -In-TrainingPlease take what I say with a grain of salt,
especially in matters of the Dharma!

How is this for a Zennie idea...
I remember Carl Sagan once mentioned that it has been calculated that the air we breath in has some of the same molecules breathed out by countless others. You can pick just about anyone throughout history. At this very moment know, that on a molecular level, you are quite literally breathing the same air which has entered and exited their lungs.
Interconnection!

Gassho,
Hoyu(John)

This is kind of an old post to drag up but, you just blew my mind, maaan. Hehe, never thought about it that way.

Wonderful! I enjoy the analogy to the training wheels and to take in the blue sky instead. I started counting the breaths and still do sometimes. This made me recall being in the supermarket and feeling very overwhelmed by the clouds of people and children with their little kid carts. I would stop and breathe and my wife would ask what I was doing. "Counting," I said. Perhaps I looked a bit crazy! By counting I was holding the clouds in as opposed to noticing them truly and thereby letting them float away. Thanks Jundo!

Some time ago I started to keep the attention on the space around me and not on the breathing. It's easier and more comfortable for me. There is a magnificent feeling when, after exhaling, it takes a few seconds until the inhalation come again.

I am new to zazen so I am trying to keep an open mind about changing my meditation habits, however I have found many benefits from my current meditation method. I start meditation by saying phrases that follow my breath such as "Breathing in I nourish my body" and then "Breathing out I am calm." As my mind starts to calm down, I will shorten the sentence to "I nourish my body" and "I am calm." Then as my mind begins to slow even more only one word will follow my in breath "Nourish" and my out breath "Calm." Lastly, I am able to forget all words and concentration on breaths and just be. Uusally basking in a powerfully calm and joyful emotion. At this point. I suppose this last state is most similar to Zazen meditation. However, I value the beginning parts of my mediation for two reasons. First, it provides me an effective method of entering in to the final state of my meditation. Second, when I am out and about in my daily life and feel a strong negative emotion, I can stop, breathe three times and I am quickly calmed and can better deal with the situation I find myself in. Thoughts??

Well,if it works for you, don't fix it. If you want to do so for a few minutes at the start of Zazen, that is fine.

Then, however, around here we sit Shikantaza. Strange as it sounds, Shikantaza does not run after or particularly value (or not value) powerfully calm and joyful emotions. We sit with what is, totally at Peace and Joyful (Big "P" and "J") with whatever is ... which, strange as it sounds, may or may not be particularly peaceful and joyful in that moment.

We let rainy days be rainy, sunny days be sunny ... same with healthy days or sick days, happy and joyful moments or sad and crying moments ... all what is. Life. Our Peace and Joy transcends all that, even transcending ordinary peace vs. chaos, joy vs. sadness. So Peaceful and Joyous that there is not even need to feel peaceful and joyous or not feel so.

Thanks for the reply Jundo. I read the thread and it was helpful. My understanding is that Shikantaza is sitting with what ever is. We let the thoughts, whether good or bad, enter and exit our mind with no resistance. We do this until the thoughts and emotions drift from our mind. Our mind becomes calm. Then, we focus on everything and nothing at all. But I am not clear on what "every and nothing at all" is?

"Everything and nothing at all" is everything in the room (in all time and space in fact) and nothing in particular. A chair may be in one's line of sight, but we don't get caught and tangled in thoughts about it or leading from it like "Oh, nice chair. I like that chair. I need to buy new seat covers thought. I wonder where I can get a good deal on seat covers ... ". The chair is just there in our line of sight, and we let it be. The chair is just the chair, unique in all the world. Just what it is. Leave it alone, no need to think about it.

And, yes, thoughts will calm and decrease as we don't latch on. However, that does not mean that thoughts and emotions might not keep coming (they likely will like clouds constantly drifting into a blue sky, although long stretches of empty blue too), or that necessarily we always "feel calm and at peace" (some of those clouds might be dark and stormy ones). However, we treat those thoughts and emotions just like the chair by not getting caught, latching on and getting tangled. Just let them be what is in the room (all time and space really), just like the chair sitting there. Then we discover a great Peace, Calm and Clarity that holds all the world, including chairs, you, me, thoughts and emotions ... both calm emotions and not calm emotions, white clouds, dark clouds and clear blue sky.

Kind of counter-intuitive way to find Calm (Big "C", cause Calm holds all this not always calm life), but it works.

Hi Jundo, I think I get what you are saying now about "everything and nothing at all." Thank you for that explanation . I am so use to focusing on one thing (usually my breath or a certain feeling) during meditation that it will be a big change for me. I know how to focus on my breath and not latch on to my thoughts and emotions, but I have not wrapped my head around how to focus on nothing and not latch on to my thoughts and emotions. It is probably one of those things I will have to experience to truly understand. I am lamenting a bit about changing because my current meditation method has brought me great peace. Training my brain to focus on one thing has also improved my concentration abilities. But then again, there is that old saying if you don't try you will never know. So, I will give it a try. Gassho, Troy

Hi Jundo, I think I get what you are saying now about "everything and nothing at all." Thank you for that explanation . I am so use to focusing on one thing (usually my breath or a certain feeling) during meditation that it will be a big change for me. I know how to focus on my breath and not latch on to my thoughts and emotions, but I have not wrapped my head around how to focus on nothing and not latch on to my thoughts and emotions. It is probably one of those things I will have to experience to truly understand. I am lamenting a bit about changing because my current meditation method has brought me great peace. Training my brain to focus on one thing has also improved my concentration abilities. But then again, there is that old saying if you don't try you will never know. So, I will give it a try. Gassho, Troy

Hi Troy,

If you have been practicing Karate, and come to an Ai-ki-do Dojo, one practices there Ai-ki-do and not Karate. Both are beautiful ways however. I will not say which way is best, or best for you. You have to find out.

What is our central point here? That "feeling peaceful" is a nice and pleasant thing (and a doctor might often be able to write a prescription for it that is faster than meditating). But if you are trying to go through life feeling la la la peaceful， one is actually missing the point. Nor is a Buddha's Peace an ordinary feeling of "I feel calm and peaceful". Rather, there is a profound all encompassing Peace (Capital "P") that is and embraces all this life, both calm times and life's chaos, happy and sad times, ups and downs, sickness and healthy days, peace and war. It is a Peace of One Piece so whole that it holds all life's sharp and broken pieces.

The way we learn to experience and embody such is by Just Sitting with and as What Is, letting all things be, not getting caught in the theatre of thoughts and emotions. That's our way around here.

Hi Jundo, Ok, so I did some additional reading on the net and tried sitting Shikantaza style a couple times today. Here is where I am at. Help me by letting me know if I am starting to get it. I will say that I am beginner with no shame and began my meditation by obseving my breath. I focused on the in and out of my breath until my mind calmed down. Then I focused on the present moment which included everything about the present moment: recognizing and acknowleding sounds, thoughts, emotions, etc. but not getting caught up and lingering on these. I stayed in the present moment observing everthing but focusing on none like everything was kinda in my peripheral vision at the same time. I just let myself be. If I became too distracted, I returned to my breath to become centered again. However, there was one paticular reoccurring thought/emotion I felt today that kept coming back again and again. Since I could not shake it, I stayed with it which of course took me out of state of awareness that I previously described. But by working it out in my head, looking deeply in to the reason I was having this thought/emotion, I was finally able to let it go, go back to my breath and eventually back to my state of awareness. Am I getting closer?

Don't overthink it or plan out "how". It is like driving a car or riding a bike ... simple and nothing to think about or strain at when you get it.

Here is my advice ... Just Sit. Don't Latch on to thoughts, let things be as they are. Do not judge or assess. Relax. Hold in one's heart that this moment is Sacred, there is no other place to be or action to do in all time in space in this moment but sit. Nothing is lacking.

Now come on if he breathed out his ears his ear drums were busted or the tubes. I have one that flaps a bit on my right ear.. For sinus problems I found echinachea really helps. I find my issue is being in constant pain from arthritis makes it difficult to totally relax. I did once time and saw time stop with some leaves floating below a tree.. But soon as I noticed the leaves had stopped they started up again. Since Im an addict recovery person its a bit rougher getting the mind "whats left of it" to be in a state of calm but I do it anyways. I know its not to have an OBE or Mystical experience but I think life is magickal anyways.. Nothing extra ordinary about mystical experiences since light dances and Im a light being.. .. Spirit blessings.. How come a photo signature does not show up ? is that feature turned off?

I sure appreciate these videos and the Q&A that follows. I was reading above with Jundo and Troy about peace ... just want to make sure I'm not confusing myself. If we are ruminating, ... this is akin to dukkah isn't it? And if we bring our attention to an awareness and let thoughts just drift like we do in shikantaza, isn't this peace? In other words isn't the getting out of the looping of discursive and ruminating thoughts part of what we are doing ? Or perhaps that is different than pursuing peace ... (even though we find peace from not being caught up in them?)

I sure appreciate these videos and the Q&A that follows. I was reading above with Jundo and Troy about peace ... just want to make sure I'm not confusing myself. If we are ruminating, ... this is akin to dukkah isn't it? And if we bring our attention to an awareness and let thoughts just drift like we do in shikantaza, isn't this peace? In other words isn't the getting out of the looping of discursive and ruminating thoughts part of what we are doing ? Or perhaps that is different than pursuing peace ... (even though we find peace from not being caught up in them?)

SatToday
-r

Hi Rodney,

We do not "ruminate" during Zazen, if that means being caught up and tangled in thoughts. However, thought will tend to keep coming during Zazen. Just don't grab on and, if finding oneself caught up, then let them go. Return to just sitting.

Yes, if we tend to let thoughts go about "how we hate this" or "want to change that" about circumstances, we will tend to feel more peaceful, content, free of resistance. We should learn to get out of the loops of discursive and ruminating thoughts that hold us prisoner, color the mood of life. That is correct.

However, we also do not think that the "peace" we are seeking also means that we will feel "peaceful peaceful, joy joy" 24/7. I would say that, through Zazen, one comes to know a higher "Big P" Peace that sweeps in and holds the times we feel peaceful and the times we feel anything but. It is a kind of "Big J" Joy that holds the happy times in life, and even the times when we grieve and our hearts are broken. It may be described as a kind of "freedom from thoughts" that is present both when there are no thoughts and even when there are, like a light that shines through them. Expecting life to be "peaceful peaceful, joy joy" 24/7/365 would (even if possible) rob life of its richness, much like only watching comedies and kid movies in life's theatre. Much better to experience the rich emotions of life, but simultaneously not be bound up by them like a prisoner, and able to see through them to the Peace and Wholeness which carries it all.

If folks come to Buddhism expecting "peaceful peaceful, joy joy" 24/7/365, I tell them that they may do better with a valium. I tell them to that they may have rather misguided definitions of Peace and Joy.

We do not "ruminate" during Zazen, if that means being caught up and tangled in thoughts. However, thought will tend to keep coming during Zazen. Just don't grab on and, if finding oneself caught up, then let them go. Return to just sitting.

Yes, if we tend to let thoughts go about "how we hate this" or "want to change that" about circumstances, we will tend to feel more peaceful, content, free of resistance. We should learn to get out of the loops of discursive and ruminating thoughts that hold us prisoner, color the mood of life. That is correct.

However, we also do not think that the "peace" we are seeking also means that we will feel "peaceful peaceful, joy joy" 24/7. I would say that, through Zazen, one comes to know a higher "Big P" Peace that sweeps in and holds the times we feel peaceful and the times we feel anything but. It is a kind of "Big J" Joy that holds the happy times in life, and even the times when we grieve and our hearts are broken. It may be described as a kind of "freedom from thoughts" that is present both when there are no thoughts and even when there are, like a light that shines through them. Expecting life to be "peaceful peaceful, joy joy" 24/7/365 would (even if possible) rob life of its richness, much like only watching comedies and kid movies in life's theatre. Much better to experience the rich emotions of life, but simultaneously not be bound up by them like a prisoner, and able to see through them to the Peace and Wholeness which carries it all.

If folks come to Buddhism expecting "peaceful peaceful, joy joy" 24/7/365, I tell them that they may do better with a valium. I tell them to that they may have rather misguided definitions of Peace and Joy.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Hi Jundo, I was reading through our dialog in this thread and also remembering some other conversations we had. I have learned so much from you. Thank you for being a great teacher!!! I can't express in words what it means to me and how much it has helped me. Thank you!!!

I'm afraid I worded my inquiry poorly. I didn't mean we ruminate during zazen (well maybe that happens but not our intention haha) but before we come to Zen or Buddhism in general, some of us are caught in our own discontent because of the looping thoughts; that is stewing, ruminating, rehearsing future conversations and going over past situations, to our detriment. That's my beginner's understanding at least in part of dukkah. So learning about the process of returning the attention to the breath or when sitting shikantaza to let thoughts flow in and out without the grappling is a relief from this situation and I thought of that as peace. And then to begin to see life for what it is without the lens of our judgements & concepts & so forth. Perhaps peace is not a good word for that and as you have distinguished between pursuing peaceful feelings.

I'm just thinking "out loud." Please correct if in err
I have more to grow in recognizing the resistance you are mentioning. I believe it to be true, it's just a bit foggy. Perhaps this clears in time with consistent sitting and such.
Much gratitude
SatToday -r

I'm afraid I worded my inquiry poorly. I didn't mean we ruminate during zazen (well maybe that happens but not our intention haha) but before we come to Zen or Buddhism in general, some of us are caught in our own discontent because of the looping thoughts; that is stewing, ruminating, rehearsing future conversations and going over past situations, to our detriment. That's my beginner's understanding at least in part of dukkah. So learning about the process of returning the attention to the breath or when sitting shikantaza to let thoughts flow in and out without the grappling is a relief from this situation and I thought of that as peace. And then to begin to see life for what it is without the lens of our judgements & concepts & so forth. Perhaps peace is not a good word for that and as you have distinguished between pursuing peaceful feelings.

Hi Rodney,

Your description of Zen Practice is good. We do learn to become free of the stewing, ruminating, judging thoughts and emotions, with their powerful aversions and attractions. Clarity and Peace results.

It is simply that, one comes to find the stillness and peace of the absence of thoughts BOTH in the absence of thought and in their presence. In other words, we human beings still need thoughts to live, and we have likes and dislikes, happy days and sad, healthy and sick days, all the usual problems of life. We will always have thoughts and emotions. It is just that this Practice allows us to find the Peace and Stillness that is present even then. We may still have thoughts, but we can see through them, are not bound by them as much. We find that the "absense of thought" and the "presence of thought" are not always a "one or the other" proposition. It is not some simple "when we stop thinking we are wise, when we start thinking we are deluded", but rather, something much more subtle. One can sometimes experience both at once, as one.

Anyway, enough philosophizing about all this. Keep sitting and practicing, and you will taste so for yourself.

Since joining Treeleaf I have experienced a kind of peace only one, and I will keep sitting. I have used sitting and mindfulness to help me deal with physical pain. I have sever arthritis of the spine, and severe degenerative disk disease. In sitting I attempted to allow myself to be mindful about pain. My intention has grown as I do find some relief in sitting. I have followed the instructions of Jon Kabbot

As I was saying, Jon Kabot-Zinn, has influenced my early meditation practice. I have also used breath counting, now I am seeking to do as instructed and follow the videos and instructions from Treeleaf. Still since I have high levels of pain, I think perhaps some techniques like body scan can be useful. Yet I have been letting thoughts flow by as I sit. I try to emulate the instructions and examples of others in the Zendo. I am grateful that finally I am allowed to practice with others through the Internet. Three times I have participated with others on Google Hangout. This is in itself really instructions because I have practiced in isolation for more than three years, and now I have others to follow both in videos and live. So I am a bit awkward, but I think that will change. I continue to sit daily, and sometimes for up to an hour, but I get out of focus, and I stop sitting. Sometimes I sit only for 30 minutes or even 15. In any case I have decided to continue thinking sitting will become easier. Still I have found times of letting go. So for me to continue I ask only that I be allowed to do as I am able.
Elgwyn
sat today
Gassho

As I was saying, Jon Kabot-Zinn, has influenced my early meditation practice. I have also used breath counting, now I am seeking to do as instructed and follow the videos and instructions from Treeleaf. Still since I have high levels of pain, I think perhaps some techniques like body scan can be useful. Yet I have been letting thoughts flow by as I sit. I try to emulate the instructions and examples of others in the Zendo.

Hi Elgwyn,

If facing pain, do whatever gets you through the night. If some other way of meditation helps, do that. If seeing a doctor and taking pain killer helps, do that. If thinking about a beach or pretty birds helps, do that. If moaning and groaning helps, do that. All good medicine.

However, at least once a day, please also sit in the complete Equanimity and Wholeness of Shikantaza, without Resistance (without resistance even to the resistance that one might naturally feel to such things and might even feel during Zazen. Equanimity even about not always feeling equanimity!). That is also powerful medicine.

And off the cushion, when groaning, just groan. When body scanning, just body scan, with this same Equanimity and Wholeness. When one moans with Equanimity, it is a Lion's Roar.

Thanks Jundo I am learning as I an watching others in equanimity. I have had the privilege of sitting Shikantaza in person on the Internet several times, and as I am allowed, I will, and I promise, sit with equanimity. Then on the side I'll use some other things. Thank you, Elgwyn, sat today, Gassho