Generosity and giving are probably very much less than 5% of what the Buddha taught, as well as of importance.
Generosity and giving wasn't a large/major part of his teachings—and donating gold and silver was not at all what he taught.

The Buddha and the monks that followed him followed the laws of the land. They modified their behaviours and even made numerous Vinaya rules—as well as including aspects to most Vinaya rules—to live according to the people around them.The Buddha didn't have issues with the law, nor did he flee the authorities. There were no monetary scandals, no political scandals, nor scandals of land ownership associated with him.

The Buddha encouraged simplicity and even austerity.The Buddha and the monks that followed him didn't amass large fortunes of gold and silver, and they didn't live in huge and very luxurious monasteries.

You use money to run the v-star project to help thousands of children. You use money to create Buddhist movies and Buddhist music for the school children. You use money to build a giant monastery which attracts 3 million people to practice the religion. You use money to propagate the religion to other countries. You use money to run the worlds only all buddhist television channel. You use money to ordain 10,000 monks twice yearly. The ordination of one single monk can cost 50-100 thousand baht. If every monk lived up to your ideal of living in a shack, eating only two pieces of rice every week, in the forest, then the religion would just die. Then the people in society would be stuck in suffering forever. Money is good. A giant temple for attracting people to practice the religion is good. Comfort and a safe place to meditate is good.

Some random thoughts and learnings I've gleaned from this thread so far:

1. It's interesting to see the #TrueBuddhists tap dance their way around the obvious abuse and violations of Thai citizens, just because they disagree on their practice of buddha dhamma.

2. It's also interesting to see the idea of "unbiased sources" being swung about like glow-in-the-dark rosary beads. This spurious notion rests on the idea that there are news sources that are ideologically neutral. Good luck with that.

3. Metta and Karuna only extends to people we like and agree with.

4. People who we don't agree with, do not deserve a fair trial, but rather to be spirited away and most likely...

5. Wat Phra Dhammakaya controls EVERYTHING. The news, the weather, meal plans, train schedules, you name it. They control it.

6. Something is true because someone says it is.

7. Monks, apparently, are not part of a complex economic system supported by laypeople. They live on nuts and berries that fall from trees.

8. When it comes to Wat Phra Dhammakaya, ALL accusations are gospel TRUTH, until...

Moderators, please inform me of any edits.

Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varamFor me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasaneBy the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

I'm attempting to research the links between Dhammakaya and Ma Ba Tha and most notably the leader Ashin Wirathu can someone provide solid proof of a definite link please?

If I can explain, I am a Buddhist and follower of Dhammakaya. I have kept revisiting this thread with interest. I am not in Thailand so I only know current circumstances of Wat Phra Dhammakaya from the media and Thai temple staff. I was not aware of any link between Ashin Wirathu and Dhammakaya until he organised a demonstration in support of Dhammakaya. The media states, amongst other alleged things, that Ashin Wirathu received an award from Dhammakaya. I only know what the media are telling me and I do not fully trust the media. My position on the media is that a lot of media organisations worldwide are biassed and I think that it is very hard to ascertain whether a newspaper report is accurate or not. I am not taking Dhammakay's line of what it is saying about media organisations over in Thailand I say this from my own point of view. I cannot fully establish what the true relationship is, if any, between Ashin Wirathu (Ma Ba Tha) and Dhammakaya. I need to know with complete certainty if there is a definite link. I hope people who are reading this are also reading between the lines and have figured out that I must know if there is a definite link then this is a game changer for me!

samseva wrote: We're not talking about alms-giving here, we're talking about donating and receiving large sums of money.

Even if WPD received large sums of money, it doesn’t mean they’re wrong. And that’s because the donation process has a clear money trail.

samseva wrote: "donating money will result in a better rebirth" is a trap which can be so very much abused, and of which Dhammakaya have fallen into.

In my previous post, I said that practicing generosity may result in a better rebirth, not will. Moreover, this is in line with what our Buddha taught.

Bhikku Bodhi’s quote:

…giving does not appear in its own right among the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, nor does it enter among the other requisites of enlightenment (bodhipakkhiya dhamma). Most probably it has been excluded from these groupings because the practice of giving does not by its own nature conduce directly and immediately to the arising of insight and the realization of the Four Noble Truths.

Practice of giving also figures… as the first of the ten paramis… sublime virtues to be cultivated by all aspirants to enlightenment.

As you’ve said, alms-giving is about 30%, perhaps lesser, of the temple activities. And that’s because meditation is the overarching focus at WPD, not donating. Even then, the importance of generosity should not be underestimated.

samseva wrote: … you may try to defend Dhammakaya and the whole monetary donations (and the methods used to get donations), it isn't part of Buddhist teachings—or at least, it's a modified/skewed version of it. Please don't represent it as being so.

How is the temple’s alms-giving/donations process a skewed version of the Buddhist teachings?

On Samvega’s second post:

samseva wrote: Generosity and giving are probably very much less than 5% of what the Buddha taught, as well as of importance.

Generosity is the first of the 10 paramis, and according to Bhikku Bodhi:

...the cultivation of generosity directly debilitates greed and hate, while facilitating that pliancy of mind that allows for the eradication of delusion.

This shows that generosity is indeed important.

samseva wrote: The Buddha didn't have issues with the law, nor did he flee the authorities. There were no monetary scandals, no political scandals, nor scandals of land ownership associated with him.

Yes, and that’s because the Buddha did not have the bad karma of having to face monetary, political, or land scandals. If authorities are hostile towards Buddhism, the monks and Buddhist devotees should at least do something to protect Buddhism. Else, we may see a repeat of what happened to Buddhism in India after Turkish Islamic invaders became the authorities. Something similar, although of a smaller scale, is happening now at WPD. And that became apparent when article 44 violated the human rights of many Thai people, devotees, and monks at WPD.

samseva wrote: The Buddha and the monks that followed him didn't amass large fortunes of gold and silver, and they didn't live in huge and very luxurious monasteries.

WPD spent its money building temples and propagating Dhamma, which Turmeric has mentioned. WPD monks do not live in huge and luxurious monasteries. This remains to be proven.

If anyone has any convincing evidence, scriptural or otherwise, that WPD has distorted the teachings of the Lord Buddha, please provide them.

Warmest regards,
Exonesion

“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.” The Buddha - MN 152

DMN wrote:I'm attempting to research the links between Dhammakaya and Ma Ba Tha and most notably the leader Ashin Wirathu can someone provide solid proof of a definite link please?

If I can explain, I am a Buddhist and follower of Dhammakaya. I have kept revisiting this thread with interest. I am not in Thailand so I only know current circumstances of Wat Phra Dhammakaya from the media and Thai temple staff. I was not aware of any link between Ashin Wirathu and Dhammakaya until he organised a demonstration in support of Dhammakaya. The media states, amongst other alleged things, that Ashin Wirathu received an award from Dhammakaya. I only know what the media are telling me and I do not fully trust the media. My position on the media is that a lot of media organisations worldwide are biassed and I think that it is very hard to ascertain whether a newspaper report is accurate or not. I am not taking Dhammakay's line of what it is saying about media organisations over in Thailand I say this from my own point of view. I cannot fully establish what the true relationship is, if any, between Ashin Wirathu (Ma Ba Tha) and Dhammakaya. I need to know with complete certainty if there is a definite link. I hope people who are reading this are also reading between the lines and have figured out that I must know if there is a definite link then this is a game changer for me!

Im back guys. just dropping in tho so dont expect me to be back for a while. i just skimmed and wont reply to everything. Well first off, I know what ur talking about. according to anti-Dhammakaya news sites like the Nation and BkkPost we gave ashin wirathu a reward. I inquired about this and was told its not true. You probably wont here this from news sites in the "Free" world.

As far as i know, Ashin Wirathu actually did visit WPD during Magha Puja day last year (i think). He wasnt invited tho, he just came with a bunch of burmese monks and walked in without them knowing. some press saw him and took a picture and bkkpost and the nation (the same news outlets in Juntaland that accuses us of being Nazis and having secret businesses overseas) ran a story saying we invited him and gave him some kind of reward. But from what i know, I havent found any official link either and that rumor came from Ashin Wirathu showing up uninvited to one of our events (if youve been to the main temple, its not exactly easy to screen when a people with shaved heads and robes walk in)

ManEagle wrote:So it appears things have been happening again at Pathum Thani. As the only English news I can find is either from the Bangkok Post or the Nation I was wondering if it's true that Dhammajayo left the temple last Thursday and is apparently now in hiding?

More importantly perhaps, if he was to face the charges against him and even if found guilty I have been wondering what would be the implications for Dhammakaya as a whole? There are those, my wife included, who believes the Thai junta is out to completely destroy Buddhism in Thailand and somehow convert every Buddhist to Islam. I guess anything is possible under a dictatorship but I would have thought this unlikely. Maybe one of the Dhammakaya followers on here would like to comment on this and offer some convincing evidence that this conspiracy theory may have some truth to it.

As you said before your wife seems like some1 who is more devout than the typical DK follower. So its not shocking your wife thinks this. Many ppl at Dk do believe this, and many dont. I think its understandable that ppl do, islamaphobia is a problem even in the US, and unlike the US, Thailand has very frequent islamic terror attacks. Almost daily. So I would argue that the islamaphobia is much worse in Thailand than even in America. Many Dhammakaya followers do believe this but this is likely just islamaphobia and paranoia. I know ppl who do believe its a muslim conspiracy and those who dont. I dont think its a muslim conspiracy.

It is a conspiracy, but probably not a muslim one. I knew it was a conspiracy because it was following a basic forced disrobe scheme.

The dictator is obviously behind the dhammakaya case. There is now over 300 completely random charges against the temple. Not just somehow being stupid enuff to launder money using easily traced CHECKS (money we returned once we found out), but also encroaching on forest for meditation centers we built 20 years ago and illegally building a chapel 30 years ago among others (i provide a link earlier, sydney morning herald). So for the ppl here saying we are guilty of these 300 completely random charges, tell me, why exactly did NOBODY notice until now? Is the Dictator just that brilliant?? Why did no other government notice?? But of course im sure the usual ppl will just say we somehow got away with 300 completely random and unrelated crimes that stretch back decades because we control everything.

At first i could only speculate but now that the press from the FREE world is covering the case its easy to tell what the Junta's plans are. As stated above the Thai Dictator is obsessed with controlling everything. This is mentioned earlier in this thread, when the last supreme patriarch candidate was nominated by the Sangha Council the dictator refused to forward his nomination because of a so called tax evasion scandal that just happened to pop up. Eventually he amended the law so that the leader of the monks would be appointed directly by the king, bypassing the Sangha council. And of course, the king can only choose from names given to him by the dictator himself.

On top of that, he removed the head of the National Office of Buddhism and replaced him with his own pawn. The new head was actually the same guy in charge of that tax evasion scandal the previous candidate was involved in that just happened to pop up after the coup.

So now the Dictator has picked the head of the Sangha, the head of the National Office of Buddhism, what now? The head of Thailands largest Buddhist temple, Wat Phra Dhammakaya.

The siege of the temple has 2 reasons, to arrest and defrock (see first link) our honorary abbot for 300 completely random crimes, and to "reform" the temple as they see fit. This isnt speculation anymore, the Junta actually is saying this publicly now. A big reason Dk followers are so obsessed with protecting the temple they helped build (somehow illegally apparently) for the past 47 years. Here's a quote from one of the Dictator's pawns.

"Assets owned by the Dhammakaya Foundation should be transferred to the temple and the leadership of the temple needs to change," said Paiboon, the former senator. "Someone outside the temple must be appointed to steer the temple back to the right path."

Of course, what is this right path? Its whatever the Dictator says it is. If WPD is anything like anything else going on in Thailand since Thailand became a Dictatorship, the plan is once the Junta arrests our abbot the Dictator himself will appoint the new head of the temple. Essentially taking control of the last thing he has yet to control.

I honestly dont think its a muslim conpiracy, but its a conspiracy. Most likely because the Thai Dictator is a paranoid control freak.

DMN wrote:I'm attempting to research the links between Dhammakaya and Ma Ba Tha and most notably the leader Ashin Wirathu can someone provide solid proof of a definite link please?
.....

As far as i know, Ashin Wirathu actually did visit WPD during Magha Puja day last year (i think). He wasnt invited tho, he just came with a bunch of burmese monks and walked in without them knowing. some press saw him and took a picture and bkkpost and the nation (the same news outlets in Juntaland that accuses us of being Nazis and having secret businesses overseas) ran a story saying we invited him and gave him some kind of reward. But from what i know, I havent found any official link either and that rumor came from Ashin Wirathu showing up uninvited to one of our events (if youve been to the main temple, its not exactly easy to screen when a people with shaved heads and robes walk in)

Thats what ive gathered at least.

This newspaper article discusses the case and the lack of reporting about it in Thailand about it which is peculiar given the bad image of U Wirathu and his ultra-nationalist group. Apparently he was invited by the Mahachula university which is known for its red-shirt and Dhammakaya sympathies. Many Burmese monks also study there so they gave him a warm welcome. Then he also visited Dhammakaya temple.

Oh one thing on Ashin Wirathu. His followers are holding rallies in support of WPD. but then again, theyre a Buddhist Nationalist group. Im sure they would do the same for temples in the Super always right forest tradition too. So I still see no clear link. saying they are linked because Wirathu's Buddhist nationalist group held a rally to support the temple is like saying when a mosque gets torched and ISIS condemns it that mosque is associated with ISIS.

BTW a neat highlight from a link on my previous post

It's a unique sight because since the army staged a coup in May 2014, small protests have been quickly shut down, the leaders often taken away for days of "attitude adjustment" and threatened with longer periods in detention.

Some who have made critical comments online have been hauled before the shadowy military court on trumped-up charges such as sedition, or have been convicted of breaking article 112 of the constitution which is designed to prevent any criticism of the monarchy, a law that many say is often abused for political gain.

The military continues to push back a return to "democracy" by delaying elections, which it initially said would be held the year after the coup was staged. The latest date for a vote is February 2018 but some Thais wonder whether it will ever happen.

A little background on the Dictator for those who didnt click on the link, tho i highly recommend you read it. its quite good.

TRobinson465 wrote:islamaphobia is a problem even in the US, and unlike the US, Thailand has very frequent islamic terror attacks. Almost daily.

I don’t think it’s correct to call the terrorist attacks and atrocities in Thailand’s far South “Islamic terror attacks” any more than it would be to call the Thai army’s atrocities there “Buddhist terror attacks”. The perpetrators in the former case are indeed Muslims, but their actions are carried out in the cause of Malayan nationalist separatism, not Islam. In other words, as in the case of Northern Ireland in the 1970's, it's not in essence a religious conflict; rather, it's a political conflict with an exacerbating religious dimension to it.

samseva wrote:
Donating money is not a crucial aspect of Buddhism, and meditating while imaging a crystal ball and various other imaginary visualizations/mental distortions is not part of the teachings).

The criticisms of WPD’s donation process have been addressed, so I’ll move on to scriptural evidence for the use of a crystal ball as a meditation object.

Samatha Crystal ball as light kasina in the Visudhimagga
One scriptural support is the use of a light kasina (meditation objects) in the Visuddhimagga (Page 165), where:

Of the light kasina it is said: “One who is learning the light kasina apprehends the sign in light in a hole in a wall…” So firstly, when someone has merit, having had previous practice, the sign arises in him when he sees the circle thrown on a wall or a floor by sunlight or moonlight entering through a hole in a wall, etc…. Anyone else should use that same kind of circle of luminosity just described, developing it as “luminosity, luminosity” or “light, light.”

Here, a crystal ball is a kind of a “circle of luminosity”. Therefore, if a meditator can softly think of a crystal ball, regardless of its position, then he’s meditating on a light kasina. I believe, according to the Visudhimagga, that we have the flexibility to choose our meditation objects. But, they must be wholesome. And some examples meditation objects I came across include:
1. Sun and moon
2. Apple and lemon
3. Crystal ball

The meditation object, if wholesome, doesn’t matter because it’s main purpose is to:

… winnow the mind from all distractions and attachments (amongst which it is incessantly scattered and diffused from second to second) and by focusing the attention upon a specific subject to attain to tranquility.

Therefore, using a crystal ball as a meditation object is indirectly 'allowed' in the Visuddhimagga. With that, it is in line with the practice and goal of what is generally understood as Samatha meditation.

Vipassana
This is where WPD’s interpretation of Vipassana diverges from other Buddhist schools. And because the Pali scriptures didn’t discuss much about this, many people have criticized WPD for distorting the Buddha’s teachings.
But what is more controversial, is the dark & light power as mentioned in the link Mike shared below:

I’ve briefly heard about this, but this is not publicized on WPD’s website, so I will take this information with a pinch of salt. The information we have now, however, are personal accounts from Dr. Mano and from US Professor Stephen B. Young. Because we have another source besides Dr. Mano, who has been discredited for his extreme claims, this dark, light power speculation has gain strength.TRrobinson and Tumeric, do you have any information on this?

Exonesion

“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.” The Buddha - MN 152

^Exonesion. This is pretty much the weighing in. It's almost like ppl here don't think ppl with pHDs lie.

Ull also notice that he keeps saying "unnamed" source. So just like how Mano claimed we ran numerous secret businesses including arms dealing to raise money for our quest for global domination. Which of course, were also "unnamed".

Also. I'm pretty sure Mr. Young just copied those claims from Manos paper the evangelicals here were gleefully spreading for several years until I arrived. Bkkpost isn't exactly I top tier news site. And this is in a country that ranks very very low in press freedom right now.

Also. For the Muslim thing from dhammanando. The same can be said about Ashin Wirathus burmese nationalists and the rohinga muslims

Also. Notice how the antidhammakaya evangelicals on the forum ignored my statements on the "scandal" and tried to change the subject to muslims.

They love thrashing thaksin since he used to go to wpd but they totally ignore the current junta. One of them even called the Dictator "probuddhism" in a previous post. Yeah. Arresting children is totally buddhist. The evangelicals change the subject whenever some1 provides evidence not in thier favor. They even tried painting thier beloved dictator and his Mafia army thugs who have been running the country into the ground in a positive light in order make dhammakaya look bad. Do a Google search on what exactly this "probuddhism" Dictator has been doing to the country since the coup. It's widely known he's not exactly benevolent.

Note that these same #truebuddhists were perpetuating the lie that we were Nazis for years b4 I was here but then suddenly stopped. Convenient.

I want to stress that I am making no judgement on dr. young whatsoever....and I am not taking any position whatsoever on any issue being raised in this discussion.
Please read the previous twice.
I read the article and find it to be almost worthless. It is just a misanthropic hatchet job containing virtually nothing but misrepresentation, accusation, implication, innuendo, and exageration.....oh, I forgot sarcasm.

The kind of people who take this trash as a valid statement of a postion on any issue are the kind of people who elected trump.
I'm not kidding.....belief in this kind of sh1t is to a GREAT degree what is wrong with american political discourse.
chownah

It's coming out on Thai television now that the prime minister is not going to leave the temple after they find the abbot, but he is going to stay and seize the temple. A letter was leaked from the army where the prime minister had said he would not leave the temple until it was "reformed". So in other words, we are only going to the temple to arrest the Abbot. Ok we are in the temple, plot twist, now we are going to issue article 44 to search through the temples personal belongings. Ok, now we searched through the temples personal belongings and gained some control over the temple, another plot twist, time to "reform" it. Wake up Buddhists. How long will this man be allowed to be so dishonest to the public like this. Admit it Prayut. You want this temple that these people spent their money building, not your money.

This place is absolutely beautiful. An incredible monument of Buddhism. Now it is under siege.

Prime minister said he would revoke the use of article 44 only after he could manage the temple? One man dead from suicide? Government replacing the national director of Buddhism with a DSI Agent? What is going on?

Thai television. "The question is...will all of this end if the abbot gives himself up? The answer is NO. All that has happened...the true intention...the main objective.... is not to only arrest the abbot. They're not just after one monk. They're after the ENTIRE TEMPLE."

I want to stress that I am making no judgement on dr. young whatsoever....and I am not taking any position whatsoever on any issue being raised in this discussion.
Please read the previous twice.
I read the article and find it to be almost worthless. It is just a misanthropic hatchet job containing virtually nothing but misrepresentation, accusation, implication, innuendo, and exageration.....oh, I forgot sarcasm.

The kind of people who take this trash as a valid statement of a postion on any issue are the kind of people who elected trump.
I'm not kidding.....belief in this kind of sh1t is to a GREAT degree what is wrong with american political discourse.
chownah

Well if ur talking about the notthenation site. its meant to be satire...like ud have to be an idiot to think its real. hes making fun of the guy. Its a satirical response to an interview he made. found here

The satire piece was pointing out how stupid his points are in the interview, hes basically just a pawn of the anti-democracy elites in Thailand. A group that supports the Mafia military thugs and Dear Leader. His only qualification is being a farang. But the point i think robert was getting at is, if you read the relavent link from Dr. Young that Mike posted, hes not anymore reliable than Dr. Mano. Hes a tool of the entitled elites and the Military thugs.

Even without this fact, if you read the actual link Mike posted its hardly reliable. It doesnt even sound believable. I highly doubt we would invite some random unrelavent professor to our temple and tell him our super secret nazi doctrine that only super important ppl like Mano knew. And if we did i dont get why he waited 6 years to say anything. Throughout the piece he says "unnamed" person. likely because he made the whole meeting up. Mano claims we have secret businesses overseas but never names them because if he did some1 could research it and find we dont run them. This is the same concept. Hes probably never actually been to the temple let alone knew anybody by name so he had to say "unnamed" because if he makes up a name and theres no monk there by that name thats proof hes lying. which he clearly is.

The Elitist pawn BkkPost might as well as picked some random farang off the street and asked them to make up a story about us. thats basically what that piece was. At least Mano (a former monk) at least had some kind of credential, tho his own words are enuff to discredit him. Despite being appointed the Dictator's advisor in his crusade to destroy Dhammakaya Mano has consistently been wrong about everything throughout the case.

I have to comment tho. I am happy to finally see that the thread is no longer a Dhammakaya hate thread. Its nice to not see so much hatred from #TrueBuddhists for once. I think the Dictator actually played a role in this reversal. Its looks like its pretty much been established that the 300 completely random charges against our abbot are totally bogus.

You can tell because the evangelicals who took over the thread before stopped posting. Hard to justify an incredibly obvious case of persecution. And the evidence for the Dictator persecuting us is pretty overwhelming. The Dictator's hired pawn Mano also made enuff slip ups (secret tunnel, weapon stockpile, new high tech device, etc.) throughout the persecution to provide sufficient evidence he wasnt reliable. So there goes the #TrueBuddhists beloved ONLY source they were using the past few years.

I also noticed several members jump to Dhammakaya's defense to help turn the tides. Interestingly enuff, before i was involved with the temple, Dhammakaya was attacked in the early 2000s by the Thai media also. Several members told me that because of the publicity from that time, they wanted to see if all the stuff in the tabloids was true so they came to the temple themselves. They liked how it was and stayed. So ironically the anti-Dhammakaya media actually gave Dhammakaya more members. Looks like the quote from Phramonkolthepmuni is true.

When they speak about us, they helped increase awareness of our temple. It was better than advertising in newspapers. Because what they said is what they have done. I did not hire anyone for publicity. When someone criticizes, there will always be someone who praises.

Thanks to those that have replied to my query. First thing for me is to say is that if any temple even has the slightest association with an extremist then I'm walking away and I won't want to know. Extremism and Buddhism are two things that should not even need to be contemplated. I paraphrase Ajahn Brahm during one of his talks on Youtube, 'it's not Buddhism'. It is very hard to pin down the actual facts in the case of Dhammakaya temple and with all due respect, I only have Dhammakaya members and the odd news article in English to inform me with regards to the pro side of the argument.

The thing that is clear to me is the human rights violations by the Thai Government. I think that government forces have however been restrained so far and the situation could have been much worse. I also attend a Forest Sangha monastery and I would feel the same with regards to human rights violations if a forest temple was raided or any other Buddhist or non-Buddhist establishment for that matter.

My experience of Dhammakaya has been a very positive one and I regard one of the monks as a friend who even offered to spend a lot of time helping me through a personal problem lately. I am however very puzzled when it comes to Dhammakaya. On one hand, I experience an organisation with devoted people who all they seem to do is talk about peace and promote peace. In addition, I have learned a lot at the temple and I have grown personally and spiritually during my time there. On the other hand, there has always been the controversy surrounding the temple back in Thailand and whether the Abbot and others have committed offences or not. These two points are in total contrast which, event before the temple siege, made me feel uneasy. Just to note, if I am presented with any evidence that shows that senior monks have been corrupt or that they do entertain extremists then I'm off never to be seen again at the temple so I am not a blind follower and many people at my temple feel the same way. The point is that there is so much confusion it is like I have one foot in the door and one foot out at the moment just waiting for something definitive either way.

In contrast, the Forest Monastery couldn't be more different to Dhammakaya. There is a well-established sangha and I feel just as at home there as I do at Dhammakaya, but without the niggling problems in the background. I also learn a lot of Buddhism there and love the chanting. The Forest Sangha just gets on with it! I do value being able to attend both organisations as I get a rich variety of variety of experiences.

There is one thing that is niggling away at me. It is clear to me that Dhammakaya members are hiding the abbot and I question whether they are doing right or wrong? I also question if this siege and the hiding of the abbot could be the downfall of the temple?

I don't usually post on forums as everyone gets my raw thoughts and I am always getting myself into trouble especially when I write! Sorry Dhammakaya members but I want to know and I want to see whether I need to abandon Dhammakaya or not. This is very important to me.