[quote]Well I think we should all be very excited about it..............[/quote]
Errr, why? Neutrinos are weird particles anyway (they don't interact at all with other particles and there are loads passing through us and the Earth every day without us (or them) so much as noticing) so it doesn't follow that proper [i]stuff[/i] will be able to get up to light speed... Even if the people at CERN have got their sums right.

Quote:Well I think we should all be very excited about it..............

Errr, why? Neutrinos are weird particles anyway (they don't interact at all with other particles and there are loads passing through us and the Earth every day without us (or them) so much as noticing) so it doesn't follow that proper stuff will be able to get up to light speed... Even if the people at CERN have got their sums right.

[quote]
Errr, why? Neutrinos are weird particles anyway (they don't interact at all with other particles and there are loads passing through us and the Earth every day without us (or them) so much as noticing) so it doesn't follow that proper stuff will be able to get up to light speed... Even if the people at CERN have got their sums right.[/quote]
Who is to say it's only neutrinos? If science has got something like the speed of light, being such an absolute limitation, so badly wrong then what [i]else[/i] is wrong?
If this discovery is proved to be correct, I think it is a great step forward. :)

Quote:
Errr, why? Neutrinos are weird particles anyway (they don't interact at all with other particles and there are loads passing through us and the Earth every day without us (or them) so much as noticing) so it doesn't follow that proper stuff will be able to get up to light speed... Even if the people at CERN have got their sums right.

Who is to say it's only neutrinos? If science has got something like the speed of light, being such an absolute limitation, so badly wrong then what else is wrong?

If this discovery is proved to be correct, I think it is a great step forward.

Even if it's only neutrinos, it still means one of the "immutable" laws of physics is wrong. Which, more importantly, starts to throw doubt on all sorts of [i]other[/i] things we hold to be sacred science, so to speak. ;)
Quite a good 'layman terms' interview with Brian Cox [link=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15034852][u]here[/u][/link] and a Time article [link=http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2094665,00.html][u]here[/u][/link].
Could all be a glitch of course. :D

Even if it's only neutrinos, it still means one of the "immutable" laws of physics is wrong. Which, more importantly, starts to throw doubt on all sorts of other things we hold to be sacred science, so to speak.

Quite a good 'layman terms' interview with Brian Cox here and a Time article here .

[quote]Even if it's only neutrinos, it still means one of the "immutable" laws of physics is wrong. [/quote]
Well that's how science works - if the evidence dosn't match our understanding of the universe, we rethink our understanding of the universe.
[quote]
Which, more importantly, starts to throw doubt on all sorts of other things we hold to be sacred science, so to speak. ;)[/quote]
Why? - what's the evidence for the "other things" to be in doubt ?

Quote:Even if it's only neutrinos, it still means one of the "immutable" laws of physics is wrong.

Well that's how science works - if the evidence dosn't match our understanding of the universe, we rethink our understanding of the universe.

Quote:
Which, more importantly, starts to throw doubt on all sorts of other things we hold to be sacred science, so to speak.

[quote]Well that's how science works - if the evidence dosn't match our understanding of the universe, we rethink our understanding of the universe.[/quote]
Indeed and you can see why people turn to religion! ;)
[quote]Why? - what's the evidence for the "other things" to be in doubt ?[/quote]
If something on which we have such certainty is now in doubt then [i]everything[/i] else, especially where we are more tentative, is thrown in doubt. Just a matter of logic.

Quote:Well that's how science works - if the evidence dosn't match our understanding of the universe, we rethink our understanding of the universe.

Indeed and you can see why people turn to religion!

Quote:Why? - what's the evidence for the "other things" to be in doubt ?

If something on which we have such certainty is now in doubt then everything else, especially where we are more tentative, is thrown in doubt. Just a matter of logic.

[quote]Indeed and you can see why people turn to religion! ;)[/quote]
Nope - I can't understand why rather than trying to understand things, why you just make stuff up instead.
[quote]If something on which we have such certainty is now in doubt then everything else, especially where we are more tentative, is thrown in doubt. Just a matter of logic.[/quote]
Then the logic is flawed, the only thing it throws into doubt are things it is relevant to.

Quote:Indeed and you can see why people turn to religion!

Nope - I can't understand why rather than trying to understand things, why you just make stuff up instead.

Quote:If something on which we have such certainty is now in doubt then everything else, especially where we are more tentative, is thrown in doubt. Just a matter of logic.

Then the logic is flawed, the only thing it throws into doubt are things it is relevant to.

[quote]I can't understand why rather than trying to understand things, why you just make stuff up instead.[/quote]
We do that all the time. We make up scientific theories because our antlike brains struggle to make sense of the world and the universe. The reality is probably way beyond us at our current state of evolution.
[quote]Then the logic is flawed, the only thing it throws into doubt are things it is relevant to.[/quote]
Er no. It casts doubt over [u]everything[/u]. If true (and it is a big if at the moment) this is just possibly the most important realisation, since we realised the Earth is spherical and not flat.
One wonders what else we take for granted, because chaps in white coats with letters before and after their names have told us something, but which isn't really so. Probably quite a lot.

Quote:I can't understand why rather than trying to understand things, why you just make stuff up instead.

We do that all the time. We make up scientific theories because our antlike brains struggle to make sense of the world and the universe. The reality is probably way beyond us at our current state of evolution.

Quote:Then the logic is flawed, the only thing it throws into doubt are things it is relevant to.

Er no. It casts doubt over everything. If true (and it is a big if at the moment) this is just possibly the most important realisation, since we realised the Earth is spherical and not flat.

One wonders what else we take for granted, because chaps in white coats with letters before and after their names have told us something, but which isn't really so. Probably quite a lot.

CB I can tell you are not a man of science and have not work with many scientists, because if you had you would know how hard it is for them to make clear simple definitive statements even on straight forward topics ;-) Example
[quote]because chaps in white coats with letters before and after their names have told us something, but which isn't really so[/quote] you really need to get over that complex. Science gives us a set of theorems and models to explain how all around us works, religion gives you hard beliefs. You confuse the two and assign behaviours that are not there. Remember these guys have left the option that they have made a mistake or that the experiment has been flawed and have published their data.
This does not cast doubt on everything, if it did we would have noticed it before if you think about it. For example gravity still works as it ever did. All it changes is the detailed model in some specific areas as the scientific models change as you change the scale of the examination. I hope there is something new to learn as it gives us a chance to learn and discover more.

CB I can tell you are not a man of science and have not work with many scientists, because if you had you would know how hard it is for them to make clear simple definitive statements even on straight forward topics Example

Quote:because chaps in white coats with letters before and after their names have told us something, but which isn't really so you really need to get over that complex. Science gives us a set of theorems and models to explain how all around us works, religion gives you hard beliefs. You confuse the two and assign behaviours that are not there. Remember these guys have left the option that they have made a mistake or that the experiment has been flawed and have published their data.

This does not cast doubt on everything, if it did we would have noticed it before if you think about it. For example gravity still works as it ever did. All it changes is the detailed model in some specific areas as the scientific models change as you change the scale of the examination. I hope there is something new to learn as it gives us a chance to learn and discover more.

I believe the scientists everytime. Sometimes they get it wrong and change their theories. I then believe the new theories.
I'd still rather believe scientists about science than politicians, religion, Uri Geller, "Dr" Gillian McKeith or Carabosse.

I believe the scientists everytime. Sometimes they get it wrong and change their theories. I then believe the new theories.

[quote]CB I can tell you are not a man of science and have not work with many scientists[/quote]
[quote]you really need to get over that complex[/quote]
Well you've got that one totally wrong! :D My academic background is [i]entirely[/i] a science one. It is because of that I know how much is based on................. often very little. I have nothing to get over.
[quote]I believe the scientists everytime[/quote]
When it comes to it......... it's [u]all[/u] belief. Whether the person is wearing a white coat or a dog collar. ;)
In the modern age we often prefer to believe the white-coated ones.

Quote:CB I can tell you are not a man of science and have not work with many scientists

Quote:you really need to get over that complex

Well you've got that one totally wrong! My academic background is entirely a science one. It is because of that I know how much is based on................. often very little. I have nothing to get over.

Quote:I believe the scientists everytime

When it comes to it......... it's all belief. Whether the person is wearing a white coat or a dog collar.

[quote]When it comes to it......... it's all belief. Whether the person is wearing a white coat or a dog collar.[/quote]
When I hear the Pope state
[quote] "we are not claiming things, we want just to be helped by the community in understanding our crazy result - because it is crazy".
[/quote]
Then I may agree with you CB.
As you well know Science is based on a methodology not "Belief", indeed many of of our great discoveries come from the "Suspension of disbelief" as in, "let us imagine for the moment that" and exploring possible consequences [link=http://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/Goodies/Chasing_the_light/]as here[/link]

Quote:When it comes to it......... it's all belief. Whether the person is wearing a white coat or a dog collar.

When I hear the Pope state

Quote: "we are not claiming things, we want just to be helped by the community in understanding our crazy result - because it is crazy".

Then I may agree with you CB.

As you well know Science is based on a methodology not "Belief", indeed many of of our great discoveries come from the "Suspension of disbelief" as in, "let us imagine for the moment that" and exploring possible consequences as here