I have witnessed recently a disturbing scene and I would like to share it with you.

A 4th Dan female instructor has physically assaulted with punches and kicks to the face a 2nd Kyu male student who was kneeling in seiza on the mats. The reason: during Kakari Keiko of Suwari Shomenuchi Irimi Nage, he threw her harder than her ego was expecting. She just stood and attacked him while he was still kneeling, waiting to receive the next Uke. Fortunately the weight and size difference between the 2 parties was too great for her to cause any serious damage to the student.

Although it was actually quite funny to watch, I was also very shocked that this could happen in an aikido dojo and will wait to see what kind of measures the organization to which this instructor belongs will take against her. Will keep you updated.

PeterR

06-11-2003 01:07 AM

Edward - from what you've said before there seems to be a lot of ego problems in your dojo - are there no alternatives?

By the way do you still meet up with Robert D?

Edward

06-11-2003 02:09 AM

Quote:

Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:

Edward - from what you've said before there seems to be a lot of ego problems in your dojo - are there no alternatives?

By the way do you still meet up with Robert D?

Not really. I don't think we have more problems than any other average dojo. But Aikido seems to have more ego clashes than other MA, say Karate or Judo.

I haven't seen Robert for a while now, but coincidentally, I was planning to get in touch with him soon.

Edward

06-11-2003 02:25 AM

Oh! And I forgot to mention a small detail. The same instructor is responsible for teaching children's classes :)

Gerjan

06-11-2003 05:58 AM

freaky...

And here I was, thinking Aikido was the art of peace and harmony... :freaky:

bluwing27

06-11-2003 06:05 AM

IMHO that was totally out of line for anyone on the mat, especially a 4th Dan! Lead by example etc etc.....

I know situations where egos are involved can become very complicated but if that had happened in one of our dojo's I think the first thing to happen would be someone asking the guilty party to leave the mat...full stop!:mad:

bluwing27

06-11-2003 06:07 AM

........and arent we supposed to battling our own egos anyway?

Nick P.

06-11-2003 06:51 AM

I, like Christopher have heard it said that Aikido is, among many other things, learning to master yourself.

Sounds like the technical mastery of Aikido is well on it's way. The "core" has much work to do....

Greg Jennings

06-11-2003 07:28 AM

Hmmm. We don't have ego problems like that in our dojo, nor in any dojo I've been in.

When I was training in karate back in my teens and early 20's, fights broke out regularly.

I'm not trying to say aikido is superior or karate (or anything else) inferior. Just trying to share a different experience.

Regards,

taras

06-11-2003 08:21 AM

people who do Aikido are still people, and they have all sorts of issues and problems, even high ranking ones. When you first start it is nice to believe that everyone around you is perfect just because they are martial artists, BUT ...

I see it as something that I had to learn. I saw a dan-ranked Aikidoka failing student's gradings because he was in a bad mood (this is not just my opinion). I read a strory about two dans wrestling in a dojo just because they could not solve their argument peacefully.

It is not something that you would like to see in an Aikido dojo, but there is a lesson there for everyone looking. I think it helps you understand people better, understand that they are just people, and perhaps it helps you to see something in yourself, something to work on...

Grappler

06-11-2003 09:15 AM

Must be her PMS period. You know how women are. Also needs to get laid more often. When women dont get their healthy dose of shagging, they get all cranky and frustrated and things like this happen.

akiy

06-11-2003 09:41 AM

Hi folks,

Please keep sexist comments off of these forums. I don't appreciate such stuff here.

-- Jun

opherdonchin

06-11-2003 10:27 AM

Thanks, Jun. I wasn't even sure if Andrew's comments were meant seriously or were intended as a (poor) jest or parody.

I've never seen anything like this in any dojo I've trained in or visited. I have seen all sorts of immature behavior by high ranking dans, though. On the other hand, I've also seen occasional weak technique from high ranking dans, too, so I guess there is a lot to learn even after many years of training.

Of course, there is also no shortage of people (even on this site) who feel that an emphasis on spiritual development in Aikido is misplaced.

I'd also like to say that, however innappropriate her behavior may have been, she was probably very frustrated. It's possible that her frustrations ought to be addressed, whatever else is done about the incident.

jxa127

06-11-2003 12:14 PM

All,

I find it strange that so many comments express a measure of understanding for this 4th dan female instructor. Had it been a 4th dan male instructor doing the same thing, I'm sure this board would be filled with strong condemnations of his actions.

Personally, I find that kind of behavior absolutely unacceptable from anyone at any rank. I know I've been angry a couple of times on that mat. Frustrated more than a couple of times. I've never lashed out at my uke or had anyone lash out at me.

Still, before forming a judgement, it would be helpful to know how often this particular student loses her temper. Is that particular 2nd kyu really hard on all his ukes? Are there other background facts that would put this incident in context?

More to the point: Edward, why did you post this here? What sort of response are you looking for? (These are honest questions, I'd really like to know.)

Regards,

-Drew

Janet Rosen

06-11-2003 12:20 PM

Quote:

Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:

All,

I find it strange that so many comments express a measure of understanding for this 4th dan female instructor. Had it been a 4th dan male instructor doing the same thing, I'm sure this board would be filled with strong condemnations of his actions.

Personally, I find that kind of behavior absolutely unacceptable from anyone at any rank.

-Drew

I quite agree.

Also had it been a male instructor, I do not think we would have been wondering whether he'd gotten laid recently or not.

First of all, its just plain an abuse of authority.

Second of all, no it is NOT typical of aikido dojos, and if tolerated is evidence of a very sick dojo culture.

opherdonchin

06-11-2003 12:59 PM

I think people who feel that their reaction might have been different with a male instructor should speak in their own voice ("if it had been a male instructor, I don't think I would have been wondering ..."). It really troubles me when people speak for others.

I think that the comment about sexual frustration would have been equally inappropriate whether the yudansha was male or female.

I think that I would want to know why the yudansha had gotten so frustrated whether they were male or female.

Central to this story is that despite the fact that the yudansha assaulted a 2nd kyu student "with punches and kicks," nobody got hurt physically. This could happen with a very small male yudansha, but there are more small women than small men. The fact that no one got injured helps me look beyond the obviously innapropriate behavior and ask about reasons.

I'm also interested in what Drew is looking for.

shihonage

06-11-2003 01:13 PM

Re: Instructor assaults Student

Quote:

Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:

A 4th Dan female instructor has physically assaulted with punches and kicks to the face a 2nd Kyu male student who was kneeling in seiza on the mats. The reason: during Kakari Keiko of Suwari Shomenuchi Irimi Nage, he threw her harder than her ego was expecting. She just stood and attacked him while he was still kneeling, waiting to receive the next Uke.

He's a second kyu, he should be able by now to handle a real attack from an enraged, dedicated opponent.

John Boswell

06-11-2003 01:16 PM

Before I even address the completely stupid and immature reaction of that alleged 4th dan Aikidoka, I want to bring up my personally taking offense to others coming in here with sexist remarks!

Grow up, people! Anyone who can take a look at a childish fight breaking out.... in a DOJO no less... and then putting the blame on the fact that one of the parties is a woman, experiencing PMS, needs to get 'shagged' or whatever... ALL of this only goes to prove there is a great deal of maturity left to be found by some here on the boards. My disappointment is beyond discription.

As for the assult: I'd have thrown her out of the dojo (had I been the instructor) and not let her back (except to apologize to everyone, especially the Nage) for six months minimum.

This topic is far from a joking matter. FAR from it...

Michael Neal

06-11-2003 02:25 PM

LOL, this is the most entertaining thread ever.

bluwing27

06-11-2003 02:46 PM

Quote:

Nick Pittson (Nick P.) wrote:

I, like Christopher have heard it said that Aikido is, among many other things, learning to master yourself.

Sounds like the technical mastery of Aikido is well on it's way. The "core" has much work to do....

True...True.....

One of my instructors sayings which has stuck with me is.....

'Aikido is a physical martial art expressing an inner spiritual development, punctuated along the way with little coloured belts which keep us interested'

Im sure we can all relate :)

So working on this then does poor technique express a poorly or lesser developed inner self? (im thinking dan grades here not kyu grades obviously :) )

And if so then what do the actions of the female 4th dan express?.....whether shes is having a bad day, bad week, personal problems or is sexually frustrated like some seem to think!

The dojo is a place to go to train, forget everyday life and work on yourself through developing good technique....its not a stress buster no matter how many people think it might! I know a 1st dan aikidoka whose training was for pretty much the reason ive just stated and the technique was....well effective...but it certainly wasnt pretty! :confused: leaving the feeling that there was just something missing!?!?

Sorry if ive ranted and wandered a bit....just had to get it out :p

Qatana

06-11-2003 02:48 PM

you know, i don't see anybody expressing ANY "measure of understanding" for anybody female here, just uneducated,sexist generalisation.

Any instructor, taking out Any frustration on student is inappropriate.Gender has absolutely nothing to do with it- unless the student made an inappropriate sexist remark to his teacher.still doesn't excuse her, but really,this is not about gender except to two rather immature "young"(i must assume) men.

Ron Tisdale

06-11-2003 02:56 PM

No, unfortunately, us middle aged and even "old" men can be just as immature...

Ron

aikidoc

06-11-2003 03:25 PM

A couple of issues hit me on this thread:

1. The 4th dan no matter the age or sex appears to be immature in handling the situation. It is not only inappropriate behavior, but also reprehensible.

2. Is there another side? Does this 2nd kyu constantly aggressively or inappropriately throw other students on purpose? This sometimes occurs in seminars and tests where ego, adrenaline, bad hair day, or whatever intervenes and short circuits the intellectual ability of the nage. Ultimately, injury to another student in my opinion is the responsibility of the nage unless the uke just does something stupid. Deliberately attacking another is assault and probably has legal implications. If the second kyu has a history of causing pain or injury to others regularly then a better approach was needed. Talking/warning first, helping them experience the nature of their technique (here is how this feels when you do it to me or others and if you don't like it quit it), or suspension or removal from the dojo.

3. Perhaps someone was trying to be cute with the sexist remarks but I think few find this funny. Political correctness and just common courtesy should make us all sensitive to such comments. Keep them to yourself. Besides, us males are just as prone to hormonally driven behavior (testosterone frequently short circuits the brain in the male species) as females. And when we do it we are generally more dangerous. Therefore the comment is inappropriate and offensive.

4. Personally, I think this instructor has seriously damaged her status with her students and should be replaced or at best seriously reprimanded-regardless whether female or male. Inappropriate behavior is inappropriate behavior. Especially in an art of harmony.

Katie Jennings

06-11-2003 04:55 PM

Hi,

The 4th Dan assulting a kyu student is clearly out of line- as is the amount of ignorant sexism that has followed. Whether the instructor is male or female is irrelevant. Also, just for Andrew's information, most women who "need to get laid more often" do not fly into a fit of rage, nor do most women when suffering from PMS! Finally, Jaxon- why is it understandable???

Mike Collins

06-11-2003 05:56 PM

Well,

All the sexist stuff aside, what if this had been a male instructor at the 4th dan level? Would the bigger 2nd kyu have thrown with as much force if it were a man he was throwing? I submit that there is a subset of meatballs out there who believe that if a woman wants to train, she better be able to take a pounding. This same subset is also heavily peopled by a yet lower tier of meatball who will kiss a male black belts butt a long time before they'd ever consider planting them with a ton of force.

It's fine to say gender is not an issue, and in a perfect world it'd be true. Gender simply matters.

If a male black belt of less substantial size beat the crap out of a brown belt of substantial size who he felt had been brutish, I think most people would have made allowances for his "instructing" a student. Many of the old guys used to do it, many still do, it's just less of a topic of conversation.

It would be just as wrong. But it would have made way less of a "cute" story than one in which a smaller female basically bounces off of a big guy.

I wasn't there, and I don't know either party, but my immediate perception was in fact affected by the sexes of the participants. And I'll bet most other folks' was too.