You used to be able to buy an E90 without a single thing on it and it would still have the braking, steering, and handling more in line with expectations.

So you can be pissed and bemoan that fact.

Or be happy that you can ala-carte and outfit the car the way you need it to-be glad that the choice exists.

I grew up with sporting Toyotas(MR2, Celica, Supra) Hondas(CRX SI, S2000, INtegra Type R, NSX). Now(aside from the SI and FRS) you cannot find a single performance/satisfying offering from both of those makers. There is NO choice.

Although BMW has shifted a bit, at least you still have options to get the setup you want. But they now offer the 320 with the bargain Sports pack(M wheel, sport seats, staggered 18" summer wheels/tires, 704 sports suspension for $1300). So for under $35k you have the most sporting setup-the people who have bought this setup seem to really love it-people coming from Sport E46 cars even.

I guess I am a glass half full guy.

I think as BMW moves away from driver engagement, other companies will fill that affordable driver's car segment. Offerings like the BRZ/FRS, Genesis Coupe, next-gen IRS Mustang are signs that automakers still take interest in sports cars. Since Toyota debuted the LFA, they've seemed to pay more attention to the driving experience also. Cars like the new GS and IS may still have outdated powerplants, but everyone seems to rave about their handling characteristics and steering feel. My friend's dad actually just bought a new GS F-Sport.

I think Honda has a chance to take part in this too. No one can say for sure yet, but the new NSX might inspire them to create quirky fun to drive cars again or at least have some NSX engineering trickle down into the rest of the line. Even now, they might not have the most exciting line up, but some of their offerings still have that old Honda DNA. My brother has a manual Honda Fit, and the way it drives feels like those old Honda engineers are still at work. The communicative steering has great on center feel, and weight builds up nicely and progressively. The engine is weak, but eager to rev and play. Gearing is short but perfectly spaced to match the engine's personality, and the stick shift is still Honda slick. Honda has always been very good at making the different driving interactions very harmonious. They definitely have the engineering chops to make something awesome, but I guess they just don't feel like it yet.

I think we'll still have driver oriented cars in the future, but they won't come from the automakers that we're used to seeing.

I think as BMW moves away from driver engagement, other companies will fill that affordable driver's car segment. Offerings like the BRZ/FRS, Genesis Coupe, next-gen IRS Mustang are signs that automakers still take interest in sports cars. Since Toyota debuted the LFA, they've seemed to pay more attention to the driving experience also. Cars like the new GS and IS may still have outdated powerplants, but everyone seems to rave about their handling characteristics and steering feel. My friend's dad actually just bought a new GS F-Sport.

I think Honda has a chance to take part in this too. No one can say for sure yet, but the new NSX might inspire them to create quirky fun to drive cars again or at least have some NSX engineering trickle down into the rest of the line. Even now, they might not have the most exciting line up, but some of their offerings still have that old Honda DNA. My brother has a manual Honda Fit, and the way it drives feels like those old Honda engineers are still at work. The communicative steering has great on center feel, and weight builds up nicely and progressively. The engine is weak, but eager to rev and play. Gearing is short but perfectly spaced to match the engine's personality, and the stick shift is still Honda slick. Honda has always been very good at making the different driving interactions very harmonious. They definitely have the engineering chops to make something awesome, but I guess they just don't feel like it yet.

I think we'll still have driver oriented cars in the future, but they won't come from the automakers that we're used to seeing.

There is real life, then there is reading magazines.

If I lived my life by mag reviews, I would have bought a FRS/BRZ. How many are excited about that car by what they read...how many drove one.

I went right out-and drove one. Instead of financing an F30, I could have saved myself a car payment and bought one. I grew up on Mk1 and Mk2 Sciroccos, S13 240SX and a first gen CRX SI, I am all about simple, light, sporty cars. This was going to be the return!

Guess what, it left me cold. It had plenty going for it, but I just knew that version 2 or an update to the car in a couple of years was going to remind me how bad somethings were missing from me being an early adopter.

You bring up the IS, which it's true. Lexus got smart and cared more about driving this time around.

So we have seen two tests:

1) IS350 vs MSport 335=335 loses by a point. It's posted everywhere on the forums and people use it to prove their point
2) IS250 vs MSport 328=328 handily wins. It's pretty quiet. Why? Because the 328 is a 4 cylinder and although it has closed much of the gap that existed between the E90 N52 and n55, it opened up the chasm that it's a 4 cylinder and does not belong.

So we want to turn our shoulder to BMW and look more to Lexus now. But BMW can still slay the challenger but that is not as news worthy. So lets have you guys line up and buy all those automatic predator looking IS250/350's because of that first test loss. I bet they won't run out and buy N20 328s for beating the IS250 because an 4 cylinder has no right to be in a BMW 3 series. So it's a lose-lose.

If I lived my life by mag reviews, I would have bought a FRS/BRZ. How many are excited about that car by what they read...how many drove one.

I went right out-and drove one. Instead of financing an F30, I could have saved myself a car payment and bought one. I grew up on Mk1 and Mk2 Sciroccos, S13 240SX and a first gen CRX SI, I am all about simple, light, sporty cars. This was going to be the return!

Guess what, it left me cold. It had plenty going for it, but I just knew that version 2 or an update to the car in a couple of years was going to remind me how bad somethings were missing from me being an early adopter.

You bring up the IS, which it's true. Lexus got smart and cared more about driving this time around.

So we have seen two tests:

1) IS350 vs MSport 335=335 loses by a point. It's posted everywhere on the forums and people use it to prove their point
2) IS250 vs MSport 328=328 handily wins. It's pretty quiet. Why? Because the 328 is a 4 cylinder and although it has closed much of the gap that existed between the E90 N52 and n55, it opened up the chasm that it's a 4 cylinder and does not belong.

So we want to turn our shoulder to BMW and look more to Lexus now. But BMW can still slay the challenger but that is not as news worthy. So lets have you guys line up and buy all those automatic predator looking IS250/350's because of that first test loss. I bet they won't run out and buy N20 328s for beating the IS250 because an 4 cylinder has no right to be in a BMW 3 series. So it's a lose-lose.

Whoa, no need to get so defensive. I never said the IS is currently better than an F30 or that I was gonna run out and buy a Lexus. I tried to address Lexus' flaws by mentioning their outdated engines.

I'm just saying that in the future, simple driver oriented cars probably will exist but won't come from BMW or other automakers we're used to seeing.

BMW's problem is they are expanding the brand too much to fill too many niches an its hurting their bottom line because its making their cars lose on of their major appeals - exclusivity, or more so, perceived exclusivity.

They should have continued to reach upmarket to make it more luxury-focused. Many years ago when this started they would have been better off introducing a new 8 series instead of a 1 series - it wouldnt be as good for their bottom line, but long term it would have been better because it would put BMW back at the top of the sport-luxury market not just the sporty german car market. That is their second big mistake imo, focusing too much on "sport" and not enough on luxury. BMWs in Europe are not neccessarily luxury cars, but in the US they have been for a long time. Now you can order cloth in your E92 M3, they are putting tiny 4 cylinders back in their cars (which are more a result of MPG standards as opposed to any economy problem)... its just not good

I mean come on BMW, do you really need the 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, X1, X3, X5, X6, and soon i3?
BMW's lineup used to be the 3, 5, 7 and occasionally a 6/8 series high-end car. Add in the trucks, X3 and X5 - thats fine. But then add in a bottom-of-the-market 1 series..? Okay, you want to draw in more fans to establish a larger customer base. That makes sense. BMW X6? Okay BMW, you kind of lost me, but maybe people really like ugly cars and really hate practicality. As long as its got a BMW badge people will buy it right? Oh and now you are making the 3 series all 4 doors and the 4 series will be 2 doors? So all your even numbers are coupes? Like the 1 series coupe? Well hey BMW thats fine, your new naming scheme makes no sense and was just stolen from Audi, but we can still be original. We can be original enough to take what has always been a 2-door luxury top-of-the-market car, our 6 series, and reinvent it! We will turn it into a sedan! Its not like the M6 already shares its drivetrain with a sedan, I think its a good idea to create a sedan version of the M6. After all, Germans invented the super sedan right? Oh, im sorry, whats that? They already were producing an F10 M5?

BMW used to be a market leader, but they for some reason stopped using their business model that had been so succesful for so long and instead are now emulating their competitors... they need to be setting themselves apart, not blending in

Im not saying I dont like new BMWs, I really love them, have you sat in a new 7 series? Its like sitting inside of a cow. But their low end offerings are muddling the perceived "luxury" connotation with BMW in the US, their over-extension into niche markets is stretching their resources thin, and overall their business model just seems to have completely changed since 2000.

I dont think we have any threat of BMW going the way of Saab, but I would hate to see BMW go the way of most other automakers, making bland boring bullshit for the masses. Unfortunately this does SEEM to be happening. Lets hope cars like the 1M show that there are still real BMW enthusiasts somewhere in Bavaria

Whoa, no need to get so defensive. I never said the IS is currently better than an F30 or that I was gonna run out and buy a Lexus. I tried to address Lexus' flaws by mentioning their outdated engines.

I'm just saying that in the future, simple driver oriented cars probably will exist but won't come from BMW or other automakers we're used to seeing.

My tone is not reading to me as defensive, sorry if you are reading it that way.

I am coming from making similar replies to E90 vs F30 threads on both boards as there is one going on in the general F30 section right now and that Lexus issue was brought up a few times lol.

Re-Read my last reply, take out anything that is coming across as defensive-it is not intended, the info is still there.

I somewhat agree with your last statement.

In the future, driver oriented cars might come from places we might not expect such as, watch out for Hyundai. Their first at bat with the RWD Gene Coupe is pretty solid. Who knows what 5-10 years will bring. But like I said, I am a glass half full guy, so I don't see BMW abandoning what it does well and wont offer an M3 that drives like a GTR.

BMW's problem is they are expanding the brand too much to fill too many niches an its hurting their bottom line because its making their cars lose on of their major appeals - exclusivity, or more so, perceived exclusivity.

They should have continued to reach upmarket to make it more luxury-focused. Many years ago when this started they would have been better off introducing a new 8 series instead of a 1 series - it wouldnt be as good for their bottom line, but long term it would have been better because it would put BMW back at the top of the sport-luxury market not just the sporty german car market. That is their second big mistake imo, focusing too much on "sport" and not enough on luxury. BMWs in Europe are not neccessarily luxury cars, but in the US they have been for a long time. Now you can order cloth in your E92 M3, they are putting tiny 4 cylinders back in their cars (which are more a result of MPG standards as opposed to any economy problem)... its just not good

I mean come on BMW, do you really need the 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, X1, X3, X5, X6, and soon i3?
BMW's lineup used to be the 3, 5, 7 and occasionally a 6/8 series high-end car. Add in the trucks, X3 and X5 - thats fine. But then add in a bottom-of-the-market 1 series..? Okay, you want to draw in more fans to establish a larger customer base. That makes sense. BMW X6? Okay BMW, you kind of lost me, but maybe people really like ugly cars and really hate practicality. As long as its got a BMW badge people will buy it right? Oh and now you are making the 3 series all 4 doors and the 4 series will be 2 doors? So all your even numbers are coupes? Like the 1 series coupe? Well hey BMW thats fine, your new naming scheme makes no sense and was just stolen from Audi, but we can still be original. We can be original enough to take what has always been a 2-door luxury top-of-the-market car, our 6 series, and reinvent it! We will turn it into a sedan! Its not like the M6 already shares its drivetrain with a sedan, I think its a good idea to create a sedan version of the M6. After all, Germans invented the super sedan right? Oh, im sorry, whats that? They already were producing an F10 M5?

BMW used to be a market leader, but they for some reason stopped using their business model that had been so succesful for so long and instead are now emulating their competitors... they need to be setting themselves apart, not blending in

Im not saying I dont like new BMWs, I really love them, have you sat in a new 7 series? Its like sitting inside of a cow. But their low end offerings are muddling the perceived "luxury" connotation with BMW in the US, their over-extension into niche markets is stretching their resources thin, and overall their business model just seems to have completely changed since 2000.

I dont think we have any threat of BMW going the way of Saab, but I would hate to see BMW go the way of most other automakers, making bland boring bullshit for the masses. Unfortunately this does SEEM to be happening. Lets hope cars like the 1M show that there are still real BMW enthusiasts somewhere in Bavaria

I agree to an extent on the over expansion. It's very tiring keeping track of the new models and the new categories. But you are saying it's hurting their bottom line, which might be the opposite. I think it was shown in corporate docs that they are more profitable than ever. So if they make more models, make more money selling them as people buy them-well they are going to keep on doing it. If they venture out to a new segment and it flops, will they will re-coil a bit.

But this seems to be the reaction of the industry. Audi use to be the A4-A6-A8, very much the same way BMW was the 3-5-7. Now Audi has all these 4dr coupes, variety of SUVs etc, Its hard to tell who is knocking off who at this point.

Do I like it? Not so much.

But if they make more choices that people buy and reward them by making bigger profits, they are not going to stop on my account. Same with manual trans. It's all I buy. But they keep making less! How to reverse that? We have to buy more manuals to make it worth it for them to certify them lol.

But if they make more choices that people buy and reward them by making bigger profits, they are not going to stop on my account. Same with manual trans. It's all I buy. But they keep making less! How to reverse that? We have to buy more manuals to make it worth it for them to certify them lol.

Anyone who enjoys driving a car with a true manual, wants them to be available on new cars in the future, and has the means to purchase a new car needs to vote with their pocketbook.

Unfortunately for the M6, there's no mechanical issue to blame for its standing. Save some significant brake fade on the track, the M6 functioned exactly as it was designed. Assuming, of course, that BMW intended to design a car that is too heavy, too complicated, and unable to put the power down.

Before we go any further, it must be said that the M6 has some very redeeming qualities. Every judge remarked about how much he enjoyed the big, broad powerband and raucous noise from the (officially, but likely underrated) 560-horsepower engine. Praise was likewise heaped on the transmission. "The dual-clutch is the best part of this car," Lago wrote. Shifts were imperceptibly quick and smooth with no interruption of power. "I really enjoyed the drivetrain," Randy said. "The transmission is fantastic."

Like the rest of us, though, Randy had trouble finding other nice things to say about how the M6 drove. "Driving the car fast ends up being a lot of work," he reported. "It's kind of like a feeling of wrestling, and it's not a finely balanced car through the corners. You're using both hands and working it, and it's just not on the level of M cars that I'm used to seeing in terms of handling.

"It was the same report from the road. Judges dinged the M6 for being too heavy and unsettled in corners. Moreover, the car felt numb and isolating, like there was always a barrier between you and the road. Loh described it thus: "The M6 tunes out nearly every chassis response, and then tries to dial it back in to your liking."

Ah, but there's a button for that, isn't there? Actually, there are about a hundred of them. The M6 offers a wide range of options for fine-tuning the car's various computers to dial in performance for any given situation. On its face, this seems like a good thing. In practice, you end up fiddling with settings forever. We calculated 125 possible combinations of throttle, suspension, transmission, and other settings. Somewhere around combination 26, you realize that none of them is really making the car much of a better driver's car, and you're just wasting time.

As an example, take Randy's experience on track. "I tried the car in Sport Mode once to see if it affected the handling, because it had so much oversteer on exit, but it also had a tendency to understeer a lot. Only tried a couple of corners in Sport because it understeered heavily. I put it back in Sport Plus, and all of a sudden it was oversteering." In the end, the M6 was slower around the track than the much less powerful 911.

An inability to use its massive power reserve would plague the M6 everywhere it went. It struggled in instrumented testing, especially on the figure eight. If you can get its nine-step launch control to work, at 4 seconds flat to 60 mph it's nearly as quick as a Corvette in a straight line. Anywhere else, though, the M6 is constantly spinning its tires in frustration. Several editors complained that the stability-control light was flashing constantly during road driving, fighting every single bump. "If you can't go WOT into fourth gear without ESC intervention, you either have too much power or your rear axle isn't setup properly," said Lago. BMW's illustrious M division built its name on cars that were light, nimble, communicative, and begging to be driven as hard as possible. The M6 is the antithesis of that ethos.

Unfortunately for the M6, there's no mechanical issue to blame for its standing. Save some significant brake fade on the track, the M6 functioned exactly as it was designed. Assuming, of course, that BMW intended to design a car that is too heavy, too complicated, and unable to put the power down.

Before we go any further, it must be said that the M6 has some very redeeming qualities. Every judge remarked about how much he enjoyed the big, broad powerband and raucous noise from the (officially, but likely underrated) 560-horsepower engine. Praise was likewise heaped on the transmission. "The dual-clutch is the best part of this car," Lago wrote. Shifts were imperceptibly quick and smooth with no interruption of power. "I really enjoyed the drivetrain," Randy said. "The transmission is fantastic."

Like the rest of us, though, Randy had trouble finding other nice things to say about how the M6 drove. "Driving the car fast ends up being a lot of work," he reported. "It's kind of like a feeling of wrestling, and it's not a finely balanced car through the corners. You're using both hands and working it, and it's just not on the level of M cars that I'm used to seeing in terms of handling.

"It was the same report from the road. Judges dinged the M6 for being too heavy and unsettled in corners. Moreover, the car felt numb and isolating, like there was always a barrier between you and the road. Loh described it thus: "The M6 tunes out nearly every chassis response, and then tries to dial it back in to your liking."

Ah, but there's a button for that, isn't there? Actually, there are about a hundred of them. The M6 offers a wide range of options for fine-tuning the car's various computers to dial in performance for any given situation. On its face, this seems like a good thing. In practice, you end up fiddling with settings forever. We calculated 125 possible combinations of throttle, suspension, transmission, and other settings. Somewhere around combination 26, you realize that none of them is really making the car much of a better driver's car, and you're just wasting time.

As an example, take Randy's experience on track. "I tried the car in Sport Mode once to see if it affected the handling, because it had so much oversteer on exit, but it also had a tendency to understeer a lot. Only tried a couple of corners in Sport because it understeered heavily. I put it back in Sport Plus, and all of a sudden it was oversteering." In the end, the M6 was slower around the track than the much less powerful 911.

An inability to use its massive power reserve would plague the M6 everywhere it went. It struggled in instrumented testing, especially on the figure eight. If you can get its nine-step launch control to work, at 4 seconds flat to 60 mph it's nearly as quick as a Corvette in a straight line. Anywhere else, though, the M6 is constantly spinning its tires in frustration. Several editors complained that the stability-control light was flashing constantly during road driving, fighting every single bump. "If you can't go WOT into fourth gear without ESC intervention, you either have too much power or your rear axle isn't setup properly," said Lago. BMW's illustrious M division built its name on cars that were light, nimble, communicative, and begging to be driven as hard as possible. The M6 is the antithesis of that ethos.

My guess is they would say the same thing about the E63(is that it?) M6 too. Never would think of it in the class as a 911, too much of a GT car vs a Sports car.

The sad part is that the 1000-pounds-heavier Bentley and the AMG wagon finished higher than an M car in a competition purely about driving enjoyment. BMW seems to have lost its way by sacrificing the things that used to make the brand truly special - I just hope the new M3/4 and M235i help to set things right.

The sad part is that the 1000-pounds-heavier Bentley and the AMG wagon finished higher than an M car in a competition purely about driving enjoyment. BMW seems to have lost its way by sacrificing the things that used to make the brand truly special - I just hope the new M3/4 and M235i help to set things right.

I agree...

But the Bentley is the top performing $200k+ GT Speed and the AMG just happens to be a wagon, it is still very much in line with the M6 in purpose, weight and power.

So it's not like it got clowned by cars far below it's credentials.

Personally, the new E63 AMG is the first Benz in a long time that has me paying attention, especially in the wagon form. With the '14 redesign, they got rid of the hideous pontoon fenders, and added the AWD which makes it a bit less of a RWD-oversteering hooligan. Since there is no CTS-V 6mt wagon for me anymore, this might be my new wagon crush lol.

I am very disappointed to say it, but in my opinion, I do believe the torch BMW has carried is being passed on to the other manufacturers.
I had an E36, drove an E46, and have an E90 now. I have driven an F10 and F30 and also am fairly current on automotive news. My E36 was a pure driver's car - excellent steering, feel, and it felt alive. The E46 I test drove back a year ago was similar. My E90 although slightly number than the E36 is still a good modern interpretation of the core traits of BMW - handling, precision, and the feel of driving.

With the F30 I had for a weekend, that driving feel was absent. Not saying it was a bad car - it in fact was quite good. It had a lot of nice entertainment/communication features, the engine had good fuel economy, nice space, and it was reasonably quick. The sound of the inline 6 was not there, the smoothness was not there, and it didn't handle nearly as good as my E90. The F10 was a similar experience.

I am a BMW fanboy but I am getting very disappointed in their current products and the deviation from their core traits back in the E30, E36, and E46 days. If they do not get themselves back in to what made them great, I will jump ship because most of the manufacturers (Lexus, Audi, Infiniti) are catching up.

I just got an 335i F30 as a loaner. It's a Buick. Hell, probably worse than a late model Buick. No steering feel, too many gears in the auto (yeah it does shift fast). The brakes are atrocious. No poise. The engine is far too powerful for the chassis. POS IMO. It's great in a straight line, but so is a Mustang at almost half the price.

I've been driving a BMW 3 Series since 1988 as a daily driver and first started driving BMWs (E21s) in 1978. The F30 IS NOT a BMW.

I am very disappointed to say it, but in my opinion, I do believe the torch BMW has carried is being passed on to the other manufacturers.
I had an E36, drove an E46, and have an E90 now. I have driven an F10 and F30 and also am fairly current on automotive news. My E36 was a pure driver's car - excellent steering, feel, and it felt alive. The E46 I test drove back a year ago was similar. My E90 although slightly numb is still a good modern interpretation of the core traits of BMW - handling, precision, and the feel of driving.

With the F30 I had for a weekend, that driving feel was absent. Not saying it was a bad car - it in fact was quite good. It had a lot of nice entertainment/communication features, the engine had good fuel economy, nice space, and it was reasonably quick. The sound of the inline 6 was not there, the smoothness was not there, and it didn't handle nearly as good as my E90. The F10 was a similar experience.

I am a BMW fanboy but I am getting very disappointed in their current products and the deviation from their core traits back in the E30, E36, and E46 days. If they do not get themselves back in to what made them great, I will jump ship because most of the manufacturers (Lexus, Audi, Infiniti) are catching up.

I think it is more BMW is catching THEM. It's a terrible state BMW is in. But in the world of badge whores, they'll sell every F30 they make, because the people who never drove an E21 up to an E90 do not know what a BMW should feel like. The F30 I just drove home tonight? I enjoyed driving my Brother's 2013 Ford Fiesta better, honestly.

the thing that pisses me off the most is that bmw didn't need to soften up their cars to make boatloads of sales. the sportiness and driver engagement never hurt bmw sales. the f30 could've been more taut and lively yet still sell the same numbers because most people only care about the badge anyway. softening up the 3 only alienates us driving enthusiasts.

the thing that pisses me off the most is that bmw didn't need to soften up their cars to make boatloads of sales. the sportiness and driver engagement never hurt bmw sales. the f30 could've been more taut and lively yet still sell the same numbers because most people only care about the badge anyway. softening up the 3 only alienates us driving enthusiasts.

bmw is catering to the masses and lets face it, we're a small demographic

car sales among most brands have been up this year. i'm willing to bet that sales would've been equal if they didn't make the new 3 softer. ppl don't care if the 3 is sporty; they just want the badge. so if they kept it sporty, the masses get the badge, and we get the sporty sedan. everyone wins

take mazda for example. its new line up is praised for its handling dynamics, and its sales increased about 30% in july over the previous year. making cars fun to drive doesn't mean you have to give up profit