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Jazz was a Porsche 935 Martini racer. With the amount of detail Takara is putting into these, there's no way they'll let Jazz be a Fairlady Z. I really doubt Porsche will let Takara use their car (and probably Martini Racing wouldn't be on board either.) Then again, they did convince Lamborghini to let them use the Countach. Fingers crossed.

My thoughts are, if you're going to be redoing the car shell as well as parts of the transformation, you may as well create a whole new mold from scratch. They made a new mold for RtS Jazz instead of making him a Universe Silverstreak repaint, didn't they?

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:My thoughts are, if you're going to be redoing the car shell as well as parts of the transformation, you may as well create a whole new mold from scratch. They made a new mold for RtS Jazz instead of making him a Universe Silverstreak repaint, didn't they?

Thats true, but what about when Has/Tak cut costs by intergrating Sunstreaker and Sideswipe into the same mold ? In G1 they were 2 completly different molds. (a real Lamborghini Countach and a futuristic car roughly based on the Lamborghini Countach) With 2 totally different robot mode transformations. We could see something simiular on an MP scale. If Prowl's shoulder wheels mysteriously flip up for no reason and his lower legs swivel 360 degrees like FP Assualter, then we know whats coming.

Quick attempt at pulling out more details with Photoshop. I'd wager I could get more definition if I spent more time in Photoshop, but I would imagine that a better picture will hit the internet before too long.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:My thoughts are, if you're going to be redoing the car shell as well as parts of the transformation, you may as well create a whole new mold from scratch. They made a new mold for RtS Jazz instead of making him a Universe Silverstreak repaint, didn't they?

Thats true, but what about when Has/Tak cut costs by intergrating Sunstreaker and Sideswipe into the same mold ? In G1 they were 2 completly different molds. (a real Lamborghini Countach and a futuristic car roughly based on the Lamborghini Countach) With 2 totally different robot mode transformations. We could see something simiular on an MP scale. If Prowl's shoulder wheels mysteriously flip up for no reason and his lower legs swivel 360 degrees like FP Assualter, then we know whats coming.

I knew you were gonna bring up Universe Sunsteaker/Sideswipe

While Universe's aim was updating designs, Masterpiece's aim is for cartoon-accuracy and no cutting corners. Take a close look at Red Alert and compare him with Sideswipe. They could have left out the wheels on the shoulders and the detail on the hood chest, but they didn't.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:My thoughts are, if you're going to be redoing the car shell as well as parts of the transformation, you may as well create a whole new mold from scratch. They made a new mold for RtS Jazz instead of making him a Universe Silverstreak repaint, didn't they?

Thats true, but what about when Has/Tak cut costs by intergrating Sunstreaker and Sideswipe into the same mold ? In G1 they were 2 completly different molds. (a real Lamborghini Countach and a futuristic car roughly based on the Lamborghini Countach) With 2 totally different robot mode transformations. We could see something simiular on an MP scale. If Prowl's shoulder wheels mysteriously flip up for no reason and his lower legs swivel 360 degrees like FP Assualter, then we know whats coming.

I knew you were gonna bring up Universe Sunsteaker/Sideswipe

While Universe's aim was updating designs, Masterpiece's aim is for cartoon-accuracy and no cutting corners. Take a close look at Red Alert and compare him with Sideswipe. They could have left out the wheels on the shoulders and the detail on the hood chest, but they didn't.

I tend to think both the Universe line and the Masterpiece line have the same goal. For me "updating designs" means advanced articulation combined with cartoon accuracy. The good thing about the MP line is that it's target audience is NOT kids. So we can get those 80's cars we love instead of something that has to be "cool enough" to impress todays kids. Thats where the whole "NEO" debate comes in. Is "NEO" a designers reinvisioning or a kiddie marketing gimmick ? (Only Hasbro really knows the answer) The bad thing about the MP line is theyre large size and cost. It really restricts the amount of figures designed by Has/Tak as well as a collectors ability to afford and display the entire G1 cast. Not to mention those annoying licensing issues with some car companies like Ferarri and Volkswagon make getting an MP release of some characters impossible.

Honestly, I don't see them finishing the 1984 lineup. And that has nothing to do with car licenses.

They are going to do characters that they think sell the best and then whatever repaints they can get from those... I think after they do a few more season 1 cons/bots they are going to move on to most wanted Season 2/1986 Movie characters and beyond(Armada, beast wars, etc), and by that time the line will probably lose steam and end.

This line is all about toon G1 accuracy though. They most definitely would do a new mold for Jazz. And Cliffy looks nothing like his car, they would make him look like the toon.

As much as I get tired of movie Bee, I really do hope we get a G1 MP for him. If they don't finish the 1984 line-up, as long as we have a MP-10 and a MP Bee I would be pretty happy.

Last edited by warzon3 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Man, I'm excited about this but I have a lot of catching up to do with MP's since the redesigns, and i sold off all the old ones. I still need MP Grimlock (had him had to sell "crying in the corner") I need MP10, MP11, Got Thundercracker, Need MP12, MP13, Got Red Alert now we got Prowl coming. Oh, how am I gonna do this. It sucks being a no money havin, low wage payin; job ****!!

First-Aid wrote:plus a minor retool will result in Jazz/Stepper/Ricochet.

You cannot turn this:

into this:

with a mere minor retool. Forgetting about the difference in the shoulders, the chest transforms radically differently, the waist is fundamentally different and the feet/legs transformation is fundamentally different.

Yes Hasbro might try it because in their market, adult collectors make up the minority. However we are talking about Takara, whose bread and butter are adult collectors and where the Masterpiece line is a mainstream retail release. Furthermore Prowl and Meister are very popular characters, so there's no way in hell they're going to cut corners with either.

Oh the re-tool will happen. Remember Takara are the ones bold enough to paint Scourge purple, give him a new head, and call him Ratbat.

"Senator Ratbat" actually and it ties into the IDW comic design. Remember this isn't the first time Takara have put a US-based design out in the Japanese market. Just look at TF Collection Hotrod, complete with Firebolt.

Rated X wrote:Takara is also the one who were too lazy to remove the stupid light up hand gimmick on their version of G1 Unicron.

If it was laziness and cost cutting, you would have gotten the clear hand with no light up gimmick.

Rated X wrote:Takara is so lazy they dont even assemble their arms microns, they give you an unasembled kit.(WTF?)

Do you know how popular model kit-based figures are in Japan with both adult and child collectors alike? Heck between Macross and Gundam, PlaMo have made Bandai a juggernaut in the Japanese market. Did it ever occur to you that maybe Japanese fans actually want PlaMo TFs? Heck, Kabaya has been making a mint off selling "gumkits" for years.

Rated X wrote:Takaras strength is paint and they will make this mold look just like Jazz. The feet will spin around to simulate the proper look, and the wheels on the shoulders will probally flip up. Shoulder cannons will be clip on.

Do you even own G1 Jazz and G1 Prowl? The fact is that no amount of paint will make both chest, groin and leg designs mesh up.

Rated X wrote:4. Remember we are talking about re-tooling here. The transformation is very similar to adapt a porcshe re-shell. The legs can be turned around and the wheels on the the shoulder can be flipped up. If Has/Tak doesnt modify it, Igear might like they did with the seekers.

Several points here - first up, Hound has a more similar chest transformation to Prowl than Jazz does. Despite how both look, the internal mechanics are radically different and there is no way you can mask those differences, particularly with how much is packed into a Masterpiece figure- every bit of space counts.

Secondly the basic inner frame of the waist and legs on both figures are fundamentally different- paint wont hide that.

Rated X wrote:Thats true, but what about when Has/Tak cut costs by intergrating Sunstreaker and Sideswipe into the same mold ? In G1 they were 2 completly different molds. (a real Lamborghini Countach and a futuristic car roughly based on the Lamborghini Countach) With 2 totally different robot mode transformations.

Except that if that was going to happen, then why haven't we seen it already? The fact is that if it was going to happen, then we would have already seen a Sunstreaker retooled from Sideswipe and released before Prowl was announced. The fact that we haven't is glaring proof that it wont happen with Prowl and Jazz either - remember that even in CHUG Prowl and Jazz were given separate moulds.

Rated X wrote:I tend to think both the Universe line and the Masterpiece line have the same goal. For me "updating designs" means advanced articulation combined with cartoon accuracy. The good thing about the MP line is that it's target audience is NOT kids. So we can get those 80's cars we love instead of something that has to be "cool enough" to impress todays kids. Thats where the whole "NEO" debate comes in. Is "NEO" a designers reinvisioning or a kiddie marketing gimmick ? (Only Hasbro really knows the answer) The bad thing about the MP line is theyre large size and cost. It really restricts the amount of figures designed by Has/Tak as well as a collectors ability to afford and display the entire G1 cast. Not to mention those annoying licensing issues with some car companies like Ferarri and Volkswagon make getting an MP release of some characters impossible.

Actually the Masterpiece and CHUG lines have radically different goals. The CHUG line has always been about highly articulated, modernised forms of original characters. In fact I recall Hasbro saying as much when Classics was announced.

Conversely the Masterpiece line is about quite literally applying modern day toy engineering to the original designs and producing a super articulated, super detailed version of the original designs from the 80s. Both are radically different approaches.

warzon3 wrote:Honestly, I don't see them finishing the 1984 lineup. And that has nothing to do with car licenses.

They are going to do characters that sell the best and then whatever repaints they can get from those... I think after they do a few more season 1 cons/bots they are going to move on to most wanted Season 2/1986 Movie characters and beyond(Armada, beast wars, etc), and by that time the line will probably lose steam and end.

This line is all about toon G1 accuracy though. They most definitely would do a new mold for Jazz. And Cliffy looks nothing like his car, they would make him look like the toon.

As much as I get tired of movie Bee, I really do hope we get a MP for him. If they don't finish the 1984 line as long as we have a MP-10 and a MP Bee I would be pretty happy.

This scenario is as likely as Pokemon dying out in Japan 10 years ago. The fact is that the current approach to the Masterpiece line has proven to be a cash-cow for Takara (look at the frequency of releases compared to before), adult fans make up the core demographic in Japan and that core demographic primarily leans towards G1. Also with the decreasing size scale, costs have also gone down, making the line much more affordable than previously. Quite simply put, licensing issues aside (and considering Lamborgini were on board, there's no reason to think that Porsche and VW wont be either), there is no reason, short of some global catastrophe, that the Masterpiece line wont continue for many years to come.

Fanboy wrote:You need to see the figure, feel the figure , lick the figure , be the figure,And only then can you love mp 01 the way I have.

Motto:"For I have dipped my hands in muddied waters, and, withdrawing them, find 'tis better to be a commander than a common man!"

Weapon: Dark Saber Sword

I'm still a little niffed that they decided to make Prowl and friends over a Galvatron/Megatron Version 2. Not that I don't like Prowl: I'm really digging the mold, looks fantastic thus far. But I feel that the leaders take a little bit more priority over the lesser ranks.

Mindmaster wrote:I'm still a little niffed that they decided to make Prowl and friends over a Galvatron/Megatron Version 2. Not that I don't like Prowl: I'm really digging the mold, looks fantastic thus far. But I feel that the leaders take a little bit more priority over the lesser ranks.

I just want them to do a real cartoon accurate Ironhide in his true Nissan Onebox Cherry Vanette form. Those things are so ugly that they're awesome. They already work with Nissan and can even remold it as Ratchet. Come on Takara!

Bowspearer wrote:Quite simply put, licensing issues aside (and considering Lamborgini were on board, there's no reason to think that Porsche and VW wont be either), there is no reason, short of some global catastrophe, that the Masterpiece line wont continue for many years to come.

If I'm not mistaken (and Wikipedia seems to at least back up my partial memory on the brand ownership/partnership structures) Lamborghini is owned by Audi AG, which is owned by Volkswagen AG. And Porsche has always either been in some weird co-ownership or a partnership with VW.

With the Audi being used in the TF films and with a Lambo being officially used for the MP line, I wouldn't be surprised to see Porsche and VW buckle now. They are not in the position they were in when the Alternators/Binaltech line hit. They need money now, and I can imagine they'd be game for licensing their cars for toylines that only hit collector's hands.

Now, making it Stateside? Who knows, I have no idea how international licensing works with that.

Also, I am in the crowd who thinks they'll partially use the tech behind the Fairlady mold in a Jazz redesign. The entire upper body will likely be used to some degree. I also feel like the Lambo mold may wind up being re-engineered for Wheeljack or a similar transformation.

Parts may be completely redone, but the "thinking" behind it is already done, for the most part. I can easily see them using the rough skeleton from one for the other. Hell, the Binaltech/Alternators RX-8 was similar in transformation to the Subaru mold, too.

Mindmaster wrote:I'm still a little niffed that they decided to make Prowl and friends over a Galvatron/Megatron Version 2. Not that I don't like Prowl: I'm really digging the mold, looks fantastic thus far. But I feel that the leaders take a little bit more priority over the lesser ranks.

I disagree. Doing it this way, they are gradually building a case for single use moulds. Give it time - I have no doubt that when we hit single use moulds, that Megatron will be the first cab off the rank.

Doc bot wrote:I just want them to do a real cartoon accurate Ironhide in his true Nissan Onebox Cherry Vanette form. Those things are so ugly that they're awesome. They already work with Nissan and can even remold it as Ratchet. Come on Takara!

I predict it'll either be this mould or the Grapple mould which will be the next small scale Masterpiece mould to hit after MP-19. I also strongly suspect that they'll [Ratchet and Ironhide] be both cartoon accurate and come complete with battle station.

mandingo_rex wrote:Also, I am in the crowd who thinks they'll partially use the tech behind the Fairlady mold in a Jazz redesign. The entire upper body will likely be used to some degree. I also feel like the Lambo mold may wind up being re-engineered for Wheeljack or a similar transformation.

Parts may be completely redone, but the "thinking" behind it is already done, for the most part. I can easily see them using the rough skeleton from one for the other. Hell, the Binaltech/Alternators RX-8 was similar in transformation to the Subaru mold, too.

Except that's the thing. Everyone is basing this around CHUG and Binartech, but the thing is that the goal with CHUG and Binartech is completely different to the goal with that Masterpiece line.

The Binartech line and CHUG lines were both based around new incarnations of classic characters in modern alt modes. It's the reason why we saw Red Alert sharing the same design as Smokescreen in Binartech and why Sideswipe shared the same design as Sunstreaker in CHUG.

The reason that this could be done was because the newer versions were not constrained by the original designs.

The paradigm with the Masterpiece line however is fundamentally different. The goal with it has always been to update the original incarnations of classic characters by infusing the original designs with enhanced articulation and engineering that wasn't feasible back when they were first made.

Every design to date has built on the original basic design in a way that has not cut corners. Look at the run to date and name one instance since MP-10 which has cut corners with the original design as opposed to enhancing it whilst remaining true to it. Furthermore if they were going to cut corners, then why hasn't Sunstreaker turned up yet?

Fanboy wrote:You need to see the figure, feel the figure , lick the figure , be the figure,And only then can you love mp 01 the way I have.

Bowspearer wrote:Except that's the thing. Everyone is basing this around CHUG and Binartech, but the thing is that the goal with CHUG and Binartech is completely different to the goal with that Masterpiece line.

The Binartech line and CHUG lines were both based around new incarnations of classic characters in modern alt modes. It's the reason why we saw Red Alert sharing the same design as Smokescreen in Binartech and why Sideswipe shared the same design as Sunstreaker in CHUG.

The reason that this could be done was because the newer versions were not constrained by the original designs.

The paradigm with the Masterpiece line however is fundamentally different. The goal with it has always been to update the original incarnations of classic characters by infusing the original designs with enhanced articulation and engineering that wasn't feasible back when they were first made.

Every design to date has built on the original basic design in a way that has not cut corners. Look at the run to date and name one instance since MP-10 which has cut corners with the original design as opposed to enhancing it whilst remaining true to it. Furthermore if they were going to cut corners, then why hasn't Sunstreaker turned up yet?

I didn't compare the MP line to Binaltech or Classics. I used it as an example of how within the BT line, they used similar engineering from one (the Subaru, for example) and just essentially repeated it (with the RX-8). It was completely new parts, though, yet essentially the same "skeleton" transformation. There's absolutely no reason to reinvent the wheel completely if they create a Jazz in the MP line. They'll likely take a lot of what they learned from the Fairlady figures, and it will reflect in the designs.

As far as Sunstreaker? We won't see a Sunstreaker reusing Sideswipe tooling, I don't think. At least not from Takara. But if we get a Sunstreaker, I can easily see them reusing that Lambo transformation (this is what I meant, I didn't specify because I forgot to include it in my previous post) for Wheeljack. Roof=chest, hood=feet, that sort of thing. I don't recall all the similar G1 transformations, but didn't several of the Autobot cars transform similarly? Granted, feet may have spun around backwards or other things, but roughly there were some similarities in the designs.

Will they reskin it? No, I don't see them doing that or cutting corners. But there are a LOT of changes from the vintage figures to the MP ones. It's not just a simple update on the transformation by adding joints, some parts are significantly different.

Ravage? He is completely different. MP-10 has plenty of new twists and turns that make him way more complex, especially with the way they treat the entire wheels-hide-into-the-chest and the duplicate grill/stomach transformation. MP-05's trigger was a really significant change, swapping out the fake wheels on Red Alert, etc.

In the future, if we keep getting more Autobots, I fully expect to see figures they can easily retool/redeco first (like Hoist/Grapple/Trailbreaker) and Ratchet/Ironhide, but likely also "copy" the same transformation sequence for similar (not the same, though) like the Jazz/Fairlady example.

First-Aid wrote:plus a minor retool will result in Jazz/Stepper/Ricochet.

You cannot turn this:

into this:

with a mere minor retool. Forgetting about the difference in the shoulders, the chest transforms radically differently, the waist is fundamentally different and the feet/legs transformation is fundamentally different.

Yes Hasbro might try it because in their market, adult collectors make up the minority. However we are talking about Takara, whose bread and butter are adult collectors and where the Masterpiece line is a mainstream retail release. Furthermore Prowl and Meister are very popular characters, so there's no way in hell they're going to cut corners with either.

Oh the re-tool will happen. Remember Takara are the ones bold enough to paint Scourge purple, give him a new head, and call him Ratbat. Takara is also the one who were too lazy to remove the stupid light up hand gimmick on their version of G1 Unicron. Takara is so lazy they dont even assemble their arms microns, they give you an unasembled kit.(WTF?) Takaras strength is paint and they will make this mold look just like Jazz. The feet will spin around to simulate the proper look, and the wheels on the shoulders will probally flip up. Shoulder cannons will be clip on.

I think a retool will depend on how the two cars specs match up.

takara made sideswipe size accurate to MP-10, and the countach look is more true to the car. I believe jazz will be different than prowl in transformation.

mandingo_rex wrote:Ravage? He is completely different. MP-10 has plenty of new twists and turns that make him way more complex, especially with the way they treat the entire wheels-hide-into-the-chest and the duplicate grill/stomach transformation. MP-05's trigger was a really significant change, swapping out the fake wheels on Red Alert, etc.

This make no sense to anyone else?

The idea that Jazz will be made from this mold is ******. Not going to happen. Period. Saying that they are going to take fundamental design functions from Prowl mold to make a Jazz mold also is silly. Besides, all robots that turn to cars have "similar" design ques. They also all have arms and wheels.

If we see a Jazz it will be its own mold build from scratch. Just like every other MP toy that was not a character that was already exactly the same as its repaint.

Sorry if this sounds snotty but I get a laugh at the rampant speculation about this type of thing, esp when its said with such certainty. Unless you work for Takara, then I take it all back..... Do you?

mandingo_rex wrote:Ravage? He is completely different. MP-10 has plenty of new twists and turns that make him way more complex, especially with the way they treat the entire wheels-hide-into-the-chest and the duplicate grill/stomach transformation. MP-05's trigger was a really significant change, swapping out the fake wheels on Red Alert, etc.

This make no sense to anyone else?

The idea that Jazz will be made from this mold is ******. Not going to happen. Period. Saying that they are going to take fundamental design functions from Prowl mold to make a Jazz mold also is silly. Besides, all robots that turn to cars have "similar" design ques. They also all have arms and wheels.

If we see a Jazz it will be its own mold build from scratch. Just like every other MP toy that was not a character that was already exactly the same as its repaint.

Sorry if this sounds snotty but I get a laugh at the rampant speculation about this type of thing, esp when its said with such certainty. Unless you work for Takara, then I take it all back..... Do you?

Snotty? No, just another argumentative know-it-all on a toy board. If you don't get what I'm trying to say without trying to pick it apart, then you're the one with the comprehension problems, not me.

I guess I should specify that my comment was directed in two different directions. That specific paragraph didn't make sense to me, and in addition, the whole Jazz from Prowl argument as a whole. That said-Sorry I don't agree with your stupid, baseless, speculations. All three pages of it.

GiveMeSkyfire wrote:I guess I should specify that my comment was directed in two different directions. That specific paragraph didn't make sense to me, and in addition, the whole Jazz from Prowl argument as a whole. That said-Sorry I don't agree with your stupid, baseless, speculations. All three pages of it.

Uh, okay. Way to go being all awesome on a message board. Nothing ruins a hobby more than that type of attitude among people discussing things they're interested in. Congratulations.

At this point, it's all opinions and discussion. Not sure why you have your panties in a twist. Or why you think folks who have opinions that are different than yours deserve such disdain and ridicule, when you've got no other "proof" to back up your opinion either. Nowhere in my posts, nor in most others, has anyone claimed to be some expert, or to have rock-solid belief that anything will happen in the MP line concerning the reuse of tooling. It's all speculation. You know, fun "what if" talk. Which is the whole point of this board.

Your opinions could be considered just as "******", "stupid", and "baseless" as anyone else's until there's actual production items that state otherwise. But I don't think anything I said was completely "baseless" (I thought I explained a few examples, whether not so thoroughly for you to understand I guess... Maybe it wasn't the best example, but it made sense to me) since I am not the type to simply make wild accusations or to have wild pipe dreams of my own and fantasize about things that are out of the realm of possibility. I'm generally a fairly grounded thinker, and I'm open to listening to other people's thoughts on things without resorting to name-calling or the like.

Especially when it's a topic I care about, like nerd-things such as Transformers. Not sure where the animosity comes from on these Transformers boards, but it happens a lot.