Can't argue with IWRY, although the "I love you" wasn't the high point of that particular scene.

Funnily enough, they don't even say "I love you" to each other in that scene at all, though Angel does say "Because more than ever I know how much I love you" - but it's all about the love and sacrifice. I guess that is rather the point.

I don't know if I could choose which actual "I love you" is my favorite between Buffy and Angel - all are beautiful, angsty and heart-wrenching in their own way.

I always preferred the one where Buffy said I love you and followed it with I don't think I can trust you in Lie to me. It really summed up a great deal of her own personal issues with people and herself. But if we're going for the V-Day romantic type, then saying it at the end of Surprise and following it with something along the lines of "I try not to, but I can't stop" was really moving.

IWYR always brings a tear, at that point those three little words don't even need to be said.

I've never really liked IWRY because the power balance between Buffy and Angel is so off - Angel holds all the cards, and everything is done to Buffy. As a wise man on tumblr once said, "I don't think that episode ships what you think it ships."

My vote goes with the Chosen I love you. So much missed opportunity. Or actually maybe this year I'd go with one of the times Buffy tells Dawn she loves her. That always gets me, being an adoring big sister myself.

Simon, that's an excellent point. With all that Angel has done to her by killing Giles, would she be even more angry that he stole her memories from her? That he made such a huge decision without her? It was noble but also selfish and the mindset she's in by the end of s8 could leave her only seeing the negatives of his actions. It was another form of manipulation, just like Twilight...

He didn't steal her memories, the Oracles rewound time. That day literally never happened. Which was the Oracles' idea, not Angel's, and I sincerely doubt that they let him negotiate terms. I also sincerely doubt that they would have humored Angel's request to become what he was (which was ALL he requested) if his intentions weren't pure. The brother didn't want to do anything at all, dismissing it as a matter of love, but the sister said, "You are wrong. This one is willing to sacrifice every drop of human happiness and love he has ever known for another. He is not a lower being."

Essentially, that day is part of an abandoned timeline. As far as the entire world (not just Buffy) is concerned, it never happened. The only reason Angel can even remember it is that he had to in order to stop it from happening all over again. If Buffy understood and accepted why he did it in that last minute despite how much it hurt, why wouldn't she understand it in the real timeline? But why would it need to be brought up again? It would be pointlessly agonizing to dwell on a happy alternative that wasn't.

But why would it need to be brought up again? It would be pointlessly agonizing to dwell on a happy alternative that wasn't.

Not necessarily pointless. Buffy has had a lot of trouble getting over Angel, and thinks their relationship ended because he's a vampire. Knowing that they couldn't be together even if he was human, for whatever reason, might have helped her move on.

They couldn't be together when he was human *that time*, and not at all because they didn't want to be. But that time wasn't the Shanshu, and we're also dealing with a much more normal world now, post Seed-breakage. Bringing up that day would be like dangling a fabulous prize in someone's face, allowing them to believe you're going to let them keep it, but then jerking it away and forcing them to watch you smash it into a million pieces while laughing at them for having hopes and dreams.

Bringing up that day would be like dangling a fabulous prize in someone's face, allowing them to believe you're going to let them keep it, but then jerking it away and forcing them to watch you smash it into a million pieces while laughing at them for having hopes and dreams.

Bringing up that day could work as a great parallel to the events of season 8. Angel makes a decision for Buffy. He thinks it's for her own good. But he is actually manipulated by somebody who knows how to play his ego. The result: the forthcoming end of days that the Oracles promise, doesn't come; yet without Angel at her side Buffy dies in The Gift, thus triggering the chain of events that eventually lead to Twilight. By trying to avoid *the* apocalypse, Angel triggers it.

@electricspacegirl - oh, I'd love to see Joss delve into Twilight!Angel's backstory in the future issues. Thematically, his сhoices in IWRY could fit well into his behavior in season 8, so, hopefully, Joss will enjoy squeezing more angst from an old episode and revitalizing its dilemmas.

Angel didn't make a decision for Buffy. It was *his* life, *his* heartbeat. It's up to him whether or not to sacrifice it for someone, and in general, telling the person you want to sacrifice your life for beforehand makes them try to talk you out of it (just like when Buffy wanted to use her blood to cure Angel in "Graduation Day"). He went to the Oracles to see if there would be major negative consequences to his being human, and it turned out that there would be. So he had two options: stay human and Buffy dies before she's supposed to, or go back to what he was and she gets to live longer. Of *course* he'd go with the option where she gets to live longer. It has already been firmly established that her health and long-term happiness are more important to him than his, because that's why he left her. That his being alive would result in Buffy dying sooner wasn't something he was self-importantly deluding himself into believing; the Oracles confirmed it. We don't know how she would have died earlier than "The Gift", but she would have. She might even have died from pregnancy complications while carrying his child, in which case, his still being a vampire is guaranteed not to produce that result. Or maybe he would have given her smallpox or some other disease his 18th century immune system could handle but hers couldn't.

Even if the Twilight storyline wouldn't have happened in that timeline, you can't pin it all on one single action from years before. You could just as easily blame the whole thing on Darla for deciding that a drunken lout like Liam would make a good Clyde to her Bonnie. Or any number of decisions made by a wide variety of characters. As Dumbledore said, "The consequences of our actions are so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed."

Ditto fortunateizzi. I'm a dude, and I get choked up at the "You're a hell of a woman" speech. Not to go off-topic too much, but while I think overall I'm more a Buffy/Angel fan than a Buffy/Spike fan, Marsters can act circles around Boreanaz (or at least could during Buffy and Angel), so he can sell a line or a speech or a look like none of Buffy's other loves. (The "Chosen" exchange is also amazing.)

In the very first fanfic I ever wrote, The First Evil told Buffy about what happened between her and Angel in IWRY in order to rattle her, but she dismissed it as lies. I very much would like this to be brought up again. Secrets do come out, as Simon noted. I haven't read the IDW Angel comics but I will if they're dealing with matters like this.

Even if the Twilight storyline wouldn't have happened in that timeline, you can't pin it all on one single action from years before. You could just as easily blame the whole thing on Darla for deciding that a drunken lout like Liam would make a good Clyde to her Bonnie. Or any number of decisions made by a wide variety of characters. As Dumbledore said, "The consequences of our actions are so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed."

Taaroko, yeah but you can look back and see the chain reaction of events.

You forget that events in Angel were pushed into action by forces trying to bring Jasmine back into being. Do we even know how far back it goes?

My take on it has always been that The Powers chose Angel, Darla, Dru, and Spike to create this powerful bloodline that would play a myriad different roles in the war between good and evil.

Hamilton even stated as much when he was fighting Angel in Not Fade Away.

"You're gutter trash, and that's where you should have stayed, drinking and whoring your way through an unremarkable life. But the fates stepped in and made you a vampire, with a soul, no less. A champion. A hero of the people."

The fates chose Angel. I think they could have had a hand in a lot more than we realize.

My theory on the entire Darla bloodline - stemming from The Master, an ancient and powerful vampire himself - is that each of the Fanged Four had an important role to play. Angel = Champion. Darla = Give birth to Connor, a miracle son - a son of two vampires, who will father Jasmine. Spike = A vampire who fights for his soul to become a Champion. And Drusilla? Why, she's the psychic, the seer. And I think she will surprise everyone and end up being the vampire who achieves Shanshu.

If the events in Angel were set in motion by forces trying to bring Jasmine back into being, then it's even less logical to try pinning it all on Angel for the decision he made in IWRY, because it's actually the fault of those forces and he (and every other character) is powerless to defy them. And those forces are stand-ins for the writers. Who happen to be the ones responsible for the whole thing.

Obviously it's absurd to say that the writers aren't responsible, but within the story, when villains like Jasmine and Hamilton make broad "you're all unwitting pawns/puppets of fate"-type statements, I never take their word for it, especially because they could easily have no other reason for saying that than to throw the good guys off their game. They have free will. They make their own choices.

Me too, Taaroko. If everybody's just a pawn, what's the point of the story? In my head, actually, I can combine free will and fate, but I can't seem to put it into words in a way that makes sense; something like, they choose their own paths, but it's the paths they always would have chosen, being who they are. But I've never liked the idea that Jasmine arranged everything, so I interpret her statement as a bit of bragging, and I assume she manipulated events that were already happening to get her own favorable outcome.

"Nothing's inevitable as long as you stand up, look it in the eye, and say, 'You're evitable!'"

@electricspacegirl - could you provide a link to your fic? I don't know if it's okay to post links to such stuff here, but if it's not against rules, I'd love to find your story. Partly - because I'm in a process of writing a fic in which Buffy finds out about IWRY day. (I promise I won't plagiarize your story!)

@Taaroko - I rewatch earlier seasons and I can't get rid of the new interpretation of everything that happened to Angel - that both Angel and Buffy were played all along to bring Twilight into existence. Joss has always been brilliant at retcons, and in season 8 he conceived an arc that explains all strange events in Angel's life since Whistler found him and showed him Buffy. The goal was to make him fall in love with Buffy (Whistler sent him to help), to keep Angel alive (snow in "Amends"), to keep him a vampire (IWRY), to make him desperate (pretty much everything post-IWRY) to condition him for his Twilight gig.

Actually, the free will vs. destiny thing has come up a lot in conversations I've had recently, and it drives me a little bit insane. A lot of people seem to think the two are mutually exclusive or even at direct odds, but I firmly believe that they go hand in hand. We are constantly presented with choices that range from trivial things we don't even realize are choices to serious matters of life and death that we have to carefully deliberate over. But every time we have a series of options, we can only ever chose one of them in the end, so there will always only be one outcome. On a small scale, free will is the series of options we are given and destiny is the one outcome of the one choice we actually make.

In the Buffyverse, sometimes the characters know little hints about the future ahead of time. The visions Doyle and Cordelia get are usually of events that are meant to be thwarted, and there are prophecies worded just vaguely enough to make them self-fulfilling, but the characters always have to make choices in order to bring about those results.

The only things I think Jasmine had actual control over are Darla carrying Connor to term despite trying everything she could to get rid of him and Cordy from "Birthday" onward, thanks to that seemingly innocent "part demon" upgrade she got from Skip. I think that *maybe* Jasmine knew enough about how certain things would play out (or she understood the characters well enough to make educated guesses) that she seized her chance and started tweaking things here and there, but not in the sense of manipulating people's choices while making them believe they were really choosing for themselves.

Moscow, I refuse to believe that Buffy, Angel, or *any* other character has been played from the start. For one thing, that only works when it was the writer's plan all along, which, in this case, it wasn't. For another, that would make the entire series futile, depressing, and hopeless. No thanks. What I will believe is that Twilight saw where they both were post-"Chosen" and "Not Fade Away", and decided to make its move--but NOT by directly manipulating their choices, puppet master style, with them being none the wiser.

@Taaroko - I don't think that only works when it was the writer's plan all along; there is such thing as retcon. Joss does brilliant retcons, and this could be one of them.

As to "futile, depressing, and hopeless" - it's hard to argue, but it doesn't feels this way to me. Buffy was able to resist Twilight's influence and has chosen her friends instead of the fake paradize. To me, it's a hopeful message.

Angel chose that too, when he chose to leave paradise with Buffy, and he got body-jacked for it. And you can argue that the Twilight stuff was a brilliant retcon, but I don't appreciate retcons that try to encompass the entire series, don't really follow the rules established by the original run, come years after the original run has ended, and leave me with the sense that the original run was futile, depressing, and hopeless. Retcons I do appreciate are the little ones (like that Buffy was never actually partying in Rome with the Immortal). In other words, retcons that fix poorly conceived plot points or continuity errors. Hope and purpose and fighting the good fight are not poorly conceived plot points or continuity errors.

@Taaroko - in any case, it's just my personal reading; I could be wrong. I agree that hope and purpose are cornerstones of Jossverse and I believe that Joss has a lot of great stories for us to enjoy in the future.

Taaroko, so much word to everything you've said. IWRY is an example of absolute selfless love and self sacrifice, one that even Buffy understood and that Joss himself loves. It was absolutely his decision to make and so yes, that episode ships what I think it ships. *heart* (That said I like the one in "Chosen" too because it was about love, forgiveness and acceptance - both of what was and what wasn't, which could be viewed as an imbalance, not of power but emotion.)

As far as the comics, I see season 8 as proving that Buffy/Angel was NOT predestined to happen - as Whistler himself said, it was a long shot that paid off which does not, in any way, contradict what he said before about TPTB not seeing them coming.

I love IWRY and the way that Joss had it stated by both the conduits AND Doyle that Angel's actions were born of a great love, that he was willing to sacrifice "every drop of human happiness and love he'd ever known for another", that he is "the real deal in the hero department" that not many people, including Doyle (so he thought) had/has. It's awesome and epic and heartbreaking and OMG, yes, the parallels to Buffy offering up her own life and blood to save Angel are strong. Just as strong as Buffy's self-sacrifice to save Dawn in "The Gift".

Simon.....evil, tempting thoughts. I am not sure how I feel about the idea of revisiting IWRY in the comics but I can see the dramatic appeal and potential.

Not to be shippy, since I don't care for shipping, but the "I love you"/"No you don't, but thanks for saying it" bit from "Chosen" always gets to me.

It's an undeniably beautiful scene, but it hardly ever makes any of these lists -- probably because people don't know what to make of it. Mystery of the Spike/Buffy relationship, like Joss said.

(In regards to Angel/Buffy and this list, I'm still kinda puzzled as to why they chose the -- nonexistent, as Luc pointed out -- "I love you" in I Will Remember You over the one in, say, Becoming #2. The latter's definitely up to snuff.)

Okay, all the arguments for Angel being entirely selfless in that department have swayed me back onto that side. Can't remember where on this site someone managed to give a compelling argument to the contrary, but you guys just won me back! Thanks!

And Enisy, I think the idea was that there was no need to say "I love you" at that point, three words can never really capture what they went through for each other(see all above posts!) but yeah, the Becoming scene is so like the Chosen one, except with much more angst and pain. She killed him. It hurts more. If he hadn't come back in season 3 then it would have been the single most tragic love story in the history of TV for me.

(In regards to Angel/Buffy and this list, I'm still kinda puzzled as to why they chose the -- nonexistent, as Luc pointed out -- "I love you" in I Will Remember You over the one in, say, Becoming #2. The latter's definitely up to snuff.)

Yeah, that would have worked really well for me too - just as heartbreaking and breath-stealing and gut-punching. But then again, I'm not sure if all of the scenes mentioned at the EW article actually have the couples confessing mutual 'I love you's' - for instance, I know Brennan doesn't reciprocate in "Bones" and I can't recall if Booth even says the words "I love you" but it's clearly all about the love.

And there is something so heartwrenching about the "I'll never forget" right before she forgets. Gah.

Moscow Watcher, my story is here: Foreplay. Despite the title, there is no smut. That may or may not disappoint. ;) If you want to discuss it or anything else off-topic, you can email me. Address is in my profile.

Joss helped with IWRY as he's stated before (and there are behind the scenes photos that show him on set working with SMG and DB, so he was heavily involved in it), AND he's the creator and show-runner, so it all has his stamp of approval, unless you think any episode not written by Joss means he doesn't agree with what's in the episode.

And that's not even counting how he has talked about loving "IWRY" because it "kind of broke my heart". So I stand by that statment.

AND he's the creator and show-runner, so it all has his stamp of approval, unless you think any episode not written by Joss means he doesn't agree with what's in the episode. so it all has his stamp of approval, unless you think any episode not written by Joss means he doesn't agree with what's in the episode.

Joss was actually the co-creator of Angel (along with Greenwalt) and Greenwalt was the showrunner for seasons 1 -3. For a long time, it was seen as Greenwalt and Minear's baby. Angel fans didn't really identify Joss with the show until Seasons 4 or 5 from what I recall. In fact there was sizeable fan resistance to him taking a greater role in the show.

@Lmblack - interesting trivia. Could you link to these photos and the sources of quotes?

I'm at work, so I'll dig up the quotes when I can, but I just did a quick google search for the picture in question and came up with this one right away and uploaded it for your viewing pleasure:

http://tinypic.com/m/e6c8ld/3

Here's one quick list that has Joss quoting a favorite moment from IWRY:

http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=12266

I'll dig up the "it kinda breaks my heart" for you later, but if you do a google search, you'll likely find it.

Joss was actually the co-creator of Angel (along with Greenwalt) and Greenwalt was the showrunner for seasons 1 -3. For a long time, it was seen as Greenwalt and Minear's baby. Angel fans didn't really identify Joss with the show until Season 4 from what I recall. In fact there was sizeable fan resistance to him taking a greater role in the show.

Yes, exactly. Joss was the creator, Greenwalt was the showrunner but it all has Joss' stamp of approval, just like everything in seasons 6-7 of Buffy even though Marti Noxon was the show-runner and Joss had much less involvement, particularly in the writing department. Plus, Joss worked on IWRY.

that photo is great!! DB looks suitably in character and SMG looks like she's chilling for the evening!
But with or without Joss's direct involvement it still makes for heartbreaking tv, it doesn't need to be backed up.

@Lmblack - can't see the link to the pic; love Joss' letter to the fans - I vaguely remember reading it back in 2005, and it's a pleasure to reread it. I enjoy Joss' selection of his favorite moments. - "listy goodness", indeed.
ETA: Now I see the link - Thanks!

I always thought it was the opposite, re: Joss' level of involvement in the show. When Firefly started up it seems as though he didn't even go on the Buffy sets at all during S7 (besides the finale of course). And David Fury has said that Joss wasn't around much during AtS S5 either, what with writing Serenity and all. *shrug*

Guess we'll never really know. It's pretty hard to tell on a Joss show what amount of work he puts into each show when they aren't "officially" run by him, and how much executive control the showrunners under him have on the plots and scripts. I mean, even S1 of Dollhouse was apparently showrun by Fain and Craft.

I always thought it was the opposite, re: Joss' level of involvement in the show. When Firefly started up it seems as though he didn't even go on the Buffy sets at all during S7 (besides the finale of course). And David Fury has said that Joss wasn't around much during AtS S5 either, what with writing Serenity and all. *shrug*

Guess we'll never really know. It's pretty hard to tell on a Joss show what amount of work he puts into each show when they aren't "officially" run by him, and how much executive control the showrunners under him have on the plots and scripts. I mean, even S1 of Dollhouse was apparently showrun by Fain and Craft.

I agree though I think multiple people have said Joss' involvement in the latter sesons of Buffy was much more minimal and you can see it just in the fact that in season 6 he only wrote one episode - OMWF. It was an awesome one and no doubt consumed a lot of his time but his lack of presence was really obvious to me in seasons 6/7, though I think he was around more in season 7 than he was in 6.

I always thought his season 7 presence was to try and fix everything after season 6 and make the connection with Fray(the scythe). But his absence from s6 was obvious, it lacked some serious focus and nuance, everything was just in your face like "hey we're making a metaphoric point here, look, look over at us and our point!" but it seemed to not be sure exactly what that point was. Maybe that was the point, Buffy didn't know what she was there for so neither did that season? maybe I've misjudged it all along, much like IWYR? Maybe...

@Sueworld - I think Joss just has a different take on the character. His Angel is more dark and desperate. A tragic, existential figure.

Today I rewatched IWRY, and it reads as a precursor to Twilight arc in season 8: Angel makes a decision for Buffy to protect her, basing his actions on the information provided by strangers who tell him that he is special.

Sue - Sadly I can't disagree, based on season 8 but prior to that I have fewer qualms. Frankly, season 8 makes me question Joss' take on a lot of the characters and the storyline itself.

Today I rewatched IWRY, and it reads as a precursor to Twilight arc in season 8: Angel makes a decision for Buffy to protect her, basing his actions on the information provided by strangers who tell him that he is special.

It's not really a good parallel though. In IWRY, he made the choice himself, it was after making the choice that the conduits viewed him as being a heroic figure, not a "lower being". Prior to that, they didn't treat him as anything special at all. Not to mention, it was his decision to make about his own life and it was heroic and self-sacrificing. He had no reason to doubt the information of TPTB at that time.

'Joss was actually the co-creator of Angel (along with Greenwalt) and Greenwalt was the showrunner for seasons 1 -3. For a long time, it was seen as Greenwalt and Minear's baby. Angel fans didn't really identify Joss with the show until Season 4 from what I recall. In fact there was sizeable fan resistance to him taking a greater role in the show.'

And now I understand why I love so much seasons 1-3 and not seasons 4-5. Not to mention s8. Seriously, I think Joss has never understood Angel's character. Greenwalt and Minear yes, Joss,no. Season 8 proves it very well. And we're in trouble because now by Joss are Scott Allie and DH, whose lack of knowledge about AtS have been stated for months, almost since 'Twilight reveal'.

I agree though I think multiple people have said Joss' involvement in the latter sesons of Buffy was much more minimal and you can see it just in the fact that in season 6 he only wrote one episode - OMWF. It was an awesome one and no doubt consumed a lot of his time but his lack of presence was really obvious to me in seasons 6/7, though I think he was around more in season 7 than he was in 6.

I have the opposite impression. David Fury said that Joss was "every bit around, every day" during Season 6, and there's accounts (from the crew) of him conceiving, writing and/or editing scenes for "After Life", "Flooded", "All the Way", "Tabula Rasa", "Smashed", "Gone", "Dead Things", "Hell's Bells", "Normal Again", "Seeing Red" and "Grave" at the very least.

I think he was more involved in Buffy Season 6 than in Season 7, and more involved in either than in (pre-S5) Angel -- although of course there's no way to know for sure.

ETA: Here's the "kinda broke my heart" quote you were looking for:

Joss Whedon was recently asked to name his favorite "BTVS" and "Angel" episodes. Whedon responded, "Ultimately, 'Innocence,' the episode where Angel goes bad, is my favorite. That was the moment when everybody working on the show realized we had done something that was emotionally true and really different, and taken the show to a whole new level." And how about "Angel?" According to Joss, "The 'Buffy' crossover 'I Will Remember You.' 'Cause it kinda broke my heart."

(Comments were made back when Season 4 of Buffy and Season 1 of Angel were on air; his selections were different in later years, at least for Angel.)

Joss Whedon was recently asked to name his favorite "BTVS" and "Angel" episodes. Whedon responded, "Ultimately, 'Innocence,' the episode where Angel goes bad, is my favorite. That was the moment when everybody working on the show realized we had done something that was emotionally true and really different, and taken the show to a whole new level." And how about "Angel?" According to Joss, "The 'Buffy' crossover 'I Will Remember You.' 'Cause it kinda broke my heart."

You rock, thanks!!! :-) I think, based on that letter I linked to which was done after the show was over does reflect a broader selection of favorites, yes. IWRY still among those favorite moments though, which just shows good taste. *g*

For a guy who didn't really "get" Angel in many people's opinions, that quote shows how he liked the range of the character, from evil and heartless to selfsacrificing and heroic romantic figure. S8 had many confusing character depictions, but end of the day, it wasn't only Joss who was writing. So while we vilify some of his works, let's remember there were other hands in the soup too on all the good parts and the bad, for comics and TV.