HRW on Ukraine: Widespread Use of Cluster Munitions

Ukrainian government forces used cluster munitions in populated areas in Donetsk city in early October 2014. The use of cluster munitions in
populated areas violates the laws of war due to the indiscriminate nature of the weapon and may amount to war crimes

“Ukrainian forces should immediately make a commitment to not use cluster munitions and to investigate and hold accountable any personnel
responsible for firing cluster munitions into populated areas. Ukraine should accede to the treaty banning their use,” HRW said.

The Kiev junta answered with white phosphorus last night:

How long will the ukrainian so called "government" murder their own people in the name of "democracy" and "western values" with full western
political and financial support?

At least seven people have been forcibly disappeared or gone missing in Crimea since May 2014, including two on September 27, Human Rights
Watch said today. Five are Crimean Tatars and two are pro-Ukraine activists. Crimean Tatars have generally openly opposed Russia’s annexation of
Crimea in March. Two other Crimean Tatars who appeared not to have political ties have gone missing in recent days. The body of one was found
hanged on October 6. De-facto authorities in Crimea should promptly and thoroughly investigate these cases and bring those responsible to account,
Human Rights Watch said.

Is there proof that civilians were the intended target? It is also a war crime to use human shields. If the rebels fired on Ukrainian forces from a
schoolhouse, the Ukrainians have no idea whether there are still children in there, but have no choice but to return fire.

"Russians" aren't the terrorists in Ukraine. The tire burners in Kiev are.

What makes you think the tire burners in Kyiv are not taking orders from Moscow? On the other hand, the lynching of Tatars makes it very clear why the
people of Crimea were afraid to vote "no" on the "referendum."

Incidentally, Russia used cluster munitions against Chechen civilians in the First and Second Chechen Wars, as well as Georgia in
2008. If Ukraine has cluster munitions, it is because they are leftovers from the Soviet
Union.

Yah "Cluster" munitions as the term denotes are an "area weapon". Gentle euphemism anyway, the full description is"anti personnel" cluster
munitions. They aren't employed in city limits unless you don't care about the population or are intentionally targeting that population. Either way
its a war crime. Nice shift from the ROE considerations of employing such weapons to "whom it was targeting" . What matters is where such munitions
are employed. They were used in population centers, expressly forbidden in some long forgotten Geneva Accords document .

Human Shield justified it, lol. The Israelis use that when murdering Palestinians, too.

This is an article you find helpful ran by the New York Times discussing the use of Cluster Munitions and various war crimes committed by the
Ukrainian government against its civilian population centers.

This is an article you find helpful ran by the New York Times discussing the use of Cluster Munitions and various war crimes committed by the
Ukrainian government against its civilian population centers.

Very useful:

An August cluster-munitions attack on the village of Starobesheve, which was in Ukrainian Army hands, was probably carried out either by
pro-Russian rebels or by Russian troops, the report says.

Sorry I thought this was a thread concerning the Ukrainian governments use of Cluster Munitions?. Was I mistaken?, as Im pretty much convinced the OP
created this thread to highlight the fact the Ukrainian government was using cluster munitions against civilians. And as far as I can tell thats
exactly what they have been doing yes?. I will wholeheartedly contribute to any thread you create concerning Russia's use of illegal weaponry against
civilians.

Its just that, you know, I thought I would help the OP in support of his claim that the Ukrainian government was infact using illegal cluster
munitions against civilians in Ukraine because that seems to be the entire point of this thread, discussing the fact the Ukrainian government is using
Cluster Munitions against civilian populations.

To me it just made very little sense to start posting information that was not pertinent to the OP's thread. I could have started citing sources from
mustard gas attacks in WW 1 I guess. But that is not what this thread was about, so what would be the point?, UNLESS OF COURSE I WANTED TO DERAIL HIS
THREAD.

This is a thread about cluster munitions being used in Eastern Ukraine. In the interest of fairness and objectivity, I have pointed out that the
rebels may also be using such weapons, possibly with that full support of Russia. You are interested in fairness and objectivity, aren't you?

First HRW recognises Crimea after the so called "Russian occupation", now recognises one type of war crime in Ukraine.

HRW is an Non-Governmental Organization (NGO), and cannot "recognize" the legitimacy of a government. It consistently uses the term "Crimea" in
its geographical, not political, sense.

Where are the so called "anti-war movements" today?

Human Rights Watch is part of the contemporary anti-war movement. You will note that anti-war forces are much more organized and impartial than
the street theater of the past. HRW, Amnesty International and the various groups dedicated to banning land mines, cluster munitions, nuclear weapons,
etc, report abuses by all sides of conflicts and all types of regimes. This is why it is important that everyone understand that both Ukrainian and
Russian backed militaries in East Ukraine are using these munitions.

The use of cluster munitions is technically not illegal. Unlike some people assume, they are not covered by the Geneva Convention.
(The use of human shields is.) The governing treaty is the
Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM),ratified in 2010. Ukraine
is not a signatory, so it is not binding upon the Kyiv government. It has also not been signed by Russia, the United States, Israel and Syria, all of
whom have used cluster munitions, some, like Syria, on their own citizens.

If you are interested in taking action against the use of cluster munitions, you can find resources here.
I find it shameful that the Ukrainian military is using cluster munitions, but all they have is what Russia let them keep after the divorce.

originally posted by: DJW001
Incidentally, Russia used cluster munitions against Chechen civilians in the First and Second Chechen Wars, as well as Georgia in
2008. If Ukraine has cluster munitions, it is because they are leftovers from the Soviet
Union.

The OSCE Special Monitoring Mission does not confirm human rights activists' reports alleging the use of cluster munitions in the army operation zone
in eastern Ukraine. "We have about 90 observers in eastern Ukraine. If we saw something like that, we would have recorded it, but that has not
currently been recorded. All we have to say about ammunition or shelling appears in our daily reports. By this time there was nothing in our reports
about it," OSCE spokesman Michael Bociurkiw told Deutsche Welle, speaking of a Human Rights Watch report. Daily reports issued by OSCE observers
record every shelling incident in Donbass. Observers promptly visit incident sites.

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