We are pretty close and lack the utility shamans have, so they are at least equal to us.

I think HoP has been pretty awesome utility this tier. Also our defensive capability is quite a lot stronger than shamans have. I think our utility is still at least on par with shamans.

Originally Posted by voidspark

Right, I agree there's too much focus on HPS too. Which is why nerfing EF (the direct hit, not even the ticks) is nerfing burst healing capabilities when it's least needed, and the replacement talents are total shit, means that in fact we're getting nerfed worse than the meters even indicate!

Then a good holy paladin would take WoG with some subpar talent compared to EF and would not care about EF providing more HPS wouldn't he?

In our guild we have the mentality among healers, that our job is not a) to top meters b) to keep everyone topped(if it's not needed), but to keep everyone's health above 0. We don't care what HPS looks like after the boss dies. On the other hand, we are just 10/13 HC being quite casual raiding guild with not that much raiding hours.

But I'm not arguing with you (or anyone to that matter). Just trying to calm things down a bit. We'll see what happens, I'm quite sure things will change many times.

PS. I'm talking purely form the PvE point of view. I have no interest towards PvP.

I think HoP has been pretty awesome utility this tier. Also our defensive capability is quite a lot stronger than shamans have. I think our utility is still at least on par with shamans.

Perhaps, either way HoP is at least back in business in 5.4. Post-hotfix earlier, I'd say it was out of business completely.

Originally Posted by Doctorant

Then a good holy paladin would take WoG with some subpar talent compared to EF and would not care about EF providing more HPS wouldn't he?

Right. My point is that there isn't a single talent in the game that is a trap like this, where it literally 1) takes an ability you already have, and 2) makes it worse. That position might belong in a glyph, but I think it just needs to be removed and replaced with a baseline Holy ability and another (similar to SH) talent. For instance,

I actually thought of a good replacement in the theme of this tree, perhaps one which is well suited (and equally useless) for the job:

Champion of the Light (or some other lame name) - Level 45 Talent: The target becomes a Champion of the Light for 1 minute, blessing the lowest health raid member within 15 yards with Pure Light every 6 seconds. Pure Light heals for X + Y over 6 seconds. If the Champion is healed by Pure Light, the effect is cut by 50%.

^^ a proactive, a reactive, and now a random single target healing ability. (Hey! I just realized my masterpiece is a lot like Ysera's gift. But unlike those selfish druids, we can put this on anyone!).

Originally Posted by Doctorant

In our guild we have the mentality among healers, that our job is not a) to top meters b) to keep everyone topped(if it's not needed), but to keep everyone's health above 0. We don't care what HPS looks like after the boss dies. On the other hand, we are just 10/13 HC being quite casual raiding guild with not that much raiding hours.

Right, and as we discussed this talent is pretty much a trap when it comes to this. Talents do not belong as Hobson's-style choices or even worse, "don't use for progression but use this to pad the meters later." They belong as a choice between 3 beneficial abilities, not some poison like this.

Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-20 at 09:26 AM.
Reason: a more fitting name for the HoT

SH should proc off from Holy Shock too so that it can be viable for holy. Also, they wanted to make it so we didn't have to judge all the time to keep the buff in previous expansions but now they want us to do it again for a different spell, which will require even more judgements? I am disappointed.

I think HoP has been pretty awesome utility this tier. Also our defensive capability is quite a lot stronger than shamans have. I think our utility is still at least on par with shamans.

Then a good holy paladin would take WoG with some subpar talent compared to EF and would not care about EF providing more HPS wouldn't he?

In our guild we have the mentality among healers, that our job is not a) to top meters b) to keep everyone topped(if it's not needed), but to keep everyone's health above 0. We don't care what HPS looks like after the boss dies. On the other hand, we are just 10/13 HC being quite casual raiding guild with not that much raiding hours.

But I'm not arguing with you (or anyone to that matter). Just trying to calm things down a bit. We'll see what happens, I'm quite sure things will change many times.

PS. I'm talking purely form the PvE point of view. I have no interest towards PvP.

If our numbers are completely garbage we will not be brought over other healers that bring much more throughput and comparable if not more utility. Every single bit of utility we have is brought by every other paladin in the raid. Shaman have still had a spot with their crap numbers because mana tide helped the other healers as well as other raid cooldowns during burst damage phases. Paladins lack a heavy burst healing cooldown(devo aura is a joke and brought by ret and prot as well) and they provide no utility that buffs the raid.

Shaman have also had more buffs than what came out on the last ptr build and have been said to be receiving more while all that has been implied for paladins are nerfs. Yea changes could happen(need to happen) for us, but blizzard has a big trend of releasing some classes in horrible states live to see how they fare and then waiting another patch to fix them.

If our numbers are completely garbage we will not be brought over other healers that bring much more throughput and comparable if not more utility. Every single bit of utility we have is brought by every other paladin in the raid. Shaman have still had a spot with their crap numbers because mana tide helped the other healers as well as other raid cooldowns during burst damage phases. Paladins lack a heavy burst healing cooldown(devo aura is a joke and brought by ret and prot as well) and they provide no utility that buffs the raid.

Right, as put, looking beyond the numbers shamans are still superior when it comes to triage (2-3 heavy throughput CD's), and Ancestral Vigor, and Mana Tide. The last two and Spirit Link Totem cannot just be summed up by meters (while SLT does heal on meters, the actual numbers it does show little compared to how good the CD really is). Devo Aura only mitigates magical damage (unlike ALL other healing CD's), and it and other abilities are ALL brought by all paladins (versus SLT/Ancestral Vigor being resto only, etc.). Hell if you want a damage soaker, druids currently fill that role better.

Maybe I'll make this a new post but it really bothers me how our HP finishers have been treated all along. Somehow people act as if it's LOD versus EF... I thought both talents were supposed to be used, not "just one or another." Or better yet, "EF versus WoG" really just is so fucking irritating to hear. EF should not be seen as "compared" to WoG, it's a talent that (should) be improving it (or better yet made baseline).

Besides the obvious issues with selfless healer (being shit) I find it very disturbing that they want to give us so many "combo point" mechanics. We have holy power which can stack up to 5, we have daybreak which can stack up to 2 and now we have selfless healer which can stack up to 3 times. Okay we had selfless healer for a long time but this is the first time it is an actual "option".

I really dont understand why they would remove the current SS either. Current SS + LoD would be better than the future EF but instead of just nerfing EF they nerf both of them.

We were fearful they'd hit EF but I just don't understand this. Was the direct heal ever a problem? The problem we had was EF was just too attractive. But rather than come up with a proper solution they have nerfed EF to the extent it will now feel like you're actually weakening a class ability but then also nerfed the talent you would have taken instead to stop you falling back on that. Utterly ridiculous.

We have known for months that they would nerf EF in 5.4. The nerf to EF is not really a problem, the lack of buffs to other abilities are. As you say yourself removing SS was also really fucking dumb but even if we got to keep that holy paladins would still be too weak.

With these changes im almost certian I will pick selfless healer and use it as some sort of LoH although im not sure if that will work considering the selfless healer buff has to be refreshed every 15 seconds.

We have known for months that they would nerf EF in 5.4. The nerf to EF is not really a problem, the lack of buffs to other abilities are.

No, I have problems with how they went about changing EF. There should never be a point (like glyphs) where talents feel like traps, where basically taking it is worse than not taking any talents at all. This is what the change to EF has done, now there are cases (PvP for instance) where it's actually worse to have EF than just to have the bigger initial heal. They are not supposed to be "tradeoffs," but rather just benefits (with the only trade-off being the other talents).

I thought the EF nerf was hard but OK at first, then I read the fine print about the initial heal over the ticks being nerfed... could not even wrap my head around it.

Don't think the issue is in initial healing component of EF, it's not even the HoT part after it...........it's the synergy between the HoT and the mastery, just leave EF as it is but make it so the HoT is no longer affected by/causes mastery............simple.

Don't think the issue is in initial healing component of EF, it's not even the HoT part after it...........it's the synergy between the HoT and the mastery, just leave EF as it is but make it so the HoT is no longer affected by/causes mastery............simple.

If all our heals don't or shouldn't proc IH, then IH is broken. IMO, IH should affect everything and spells should be balanced around that.

Don't think the issue is in initial healing component of EF, it's not even the HoT part after it...........it's the synergy between the HoT and the mastery, just leave EF as it is but make it so the HoT is no longer affected by/causes mastery............simple.

And that would help us how exactly? That actually would make us worse off. The issue now is they are doing all these nerfs with absolutely no compensation to keep us competitive. EF being effected by mastery is not making us overpowered now, we are the 2nd lowest on healing throughput in 25m heroic. Considering all the buffs they are giving the other healing classes and all we are getting is nerfs and another shitty tier bonus, our viability in raid content is slimming.

And that would help us how exactly? That actually would make us worse off. The issue now is they are doing all these nerfs with absolutely no compensation to keep us competitive. EF being effected by mastery is not making us overpowered now, we are the 2nd lowest on healing throughput in 25m heroic. Considering all the buffs they are giving the other healing classes and all we are getting is nerfs and another shitty tier bonus, our viability in raid content is slimming.

Basically all of this. I might just have to be out until next expansion, I thought Aladya was exaggerating a bit earlier about being worried for our future, but I think this is worse than even he could have imagined.

I've always enjoyed the spot healing aspect of our play with holy shock and EF instant heal as well as great tank healing which I feel has always been one of our main roles in raiding since way back. But the changes over the past few patches have really slowed down our healing style I feel. I would've been glad to see a nerf to the HoT which would mainly make us look worse on meters rather than a nerf to the instant heal which will be worse for us in terms of being useful healers. Back in 5.1 when our class was not effed tho we complained about not having enough AOE heals and I think to an extent this was addressed but the changes are always kind of roundabout. I think we shouldn't be too down tho, if Microsoft can roll back their changes maybe Blizzard can realize the real problems make some useful changes

I've seen these nerfs coming for a while but have always been confused as to why we continue to get hit. I don't pvp so correct me if I am wrong but I did not even think that holy in pvp was even that viable. Almost all logs I see of pallies in 25H content are 2nd or 3rd from the bottom. So where is blizz getting the idea that we need to be brought "more in line" with other healers. Anyone have any ideas on this?

I've always enjoyed the spot healing aspect of our play with holy shock and EF instant heal as well as great tank healing which I feel has always been one of our main roles in raiding since way back. But the changes over the past few patches have really slowed down our healing style I feel. I would've been glad to see a nerf to the HoT which would mainly make us look worse on meters rather than a nerf to the instant heal which will be worse for us in terms of being useful healers. Back in 5.1 when our class was not effed tho we complained about not having enough AOE heals and I think to an extent this was addressed but the changes are always kind of roundabout. I think we shouldn't be too down tho, if Microsoft can roll back their changes maybe Blizzard can realize the real problems make some useful changes

The complaint was we didn't have a big aoe healing cooldown like HTT or tranq, so that complaint has not been addressed and there were no buffs to our overall aoe healing since then.