Irn-Bru wrote:I hear you. You know I have a great deal of sympathy for those who take the risk of being "undocumented." They are real heroes, IMHO.

I do not feel that they are heroes either but courage ... no doubt.

Understood. Homosexual pro ball players are probably not facing any financial or physical lashback for coming out. In fact not only would their basic rights be protected, but I suspect public support would largely be in their favor — not to mention teammates, coaches, owners, analysts, the pro team's organization, etc.

Agreed

Here is where I disagree. I don't think Collins is under the illusion that he risks life or limb by coming out. No gay player is likely to be in real danger for coming out.

I agree completely. Where is the disagreement?

But I don't think that's what this is about. This isn't about fundamental rights or protection from discrimination. This is about being able to live without keeping secrets — not hiding something close to one's heart from teammates, fans, and the media. These pro athletes who are gay are all working at dissembling this fact.

He does not have to HIDE or ADVERTISE anything. How about just LIVING his ife as he choses? That is why it is a NON-EVENT.

Suppose a player doesn't come out but lives his lifestyle as though he has. The media circus would be far worse than the attention that has surrounded Collins. And Collins will likely attract the most attention out of all the athletes who from now on are open about their sexuality. Each will be less and less of a story until . . . we reach the stage you are talking about.

If his private life becomes public knowledge, it does. Nothing wrong with acknowledging who he is if his privacy is invaded. He could sue and acknowledge if he wished to.

I do not think we are already there, as you seem to think. In that respect, I do see Collins' column as brave and worthy of attention. "Hero" might be a strong word, and I'd certainly never put him on the level of the heroes you bring up, but this announcement has its place in the world, too, and that place isn't/shouldn't be "total obscurity" given the way things are right now.

So, in the end, it isnot about fear of discrimination or harm. It is about timing. And we only argue if thiswas good or bad timing.

My argument is that if we REALLY are against discrimination of any kind in a way that a person's right underlaw are protected, this is a NON-EVENT.

Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans for over a decade and a half. Stay away from football operations !!!

HTTRRG3ALMO wrote:I see so many people treating homosexuals differently so as to be agreeable with them "nice", but people don't realize that unbeknownst to them, they have a attitude of superiority over homosexuals. Kind of like a "oh that poor homosexual, lets be nice to them because they are in need of support". To "support" someone means you view them as unable to do something alone.

Some people weigh one way, others go in the opposite direction.

My point is: a person who respects the law and the choices of others should regard their lives as PRIVATE and if they decide to come out on their own, it is a NON-EVENT.

I will not treat anybody differently one way or another due to their sexual orientation. I will treat them for what they are as persons. And I assure you that, just like in other parts of society, there will some fine gay and lesbian persons, there will some awful ones, and there will many in between.

This coming out was for public consumption. There were others who knew first hand (no pun intended) that he was gay.

Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans for over a decade and a half. Stay away from football operations !!!

Cappster wrote:Let's be honest and say that someone had to do it. There are people within our society who are simply revolted by the idea of having to tolerate the existence of gay people. Some of those people tend to be in sports where you are closer to your teammates than sometimes your own family. It does take courage for a gay person to "come out" as it can totally flip their world upside down. 50 years from now this won't be a big issue (hopefully); however, in our society today, people are still getting used to the fact that there is no viable reason why a homosexual should have to hide their identity for the fear of being ostracized for their inborn nature. Homosexuals have been around for a very long time and they deserve the same courtesy and respect as any other person in this world.

I agree that all people are created equally and are deserving of respect regardless of age, sex, location, religion, sexuality, etc.

**General thoughts below; not in reply to any one comment **

There are three homosexual men at my work that I'm friends with. They are extremely kind at heart and I wish more people possessed their kind nature (homosexual or heterosexual).

I don't agree with their lifestyle none the less. Yes, its possible to love someone with all your heart and still disagree with how they live.

Sure, you can say its none of my business how they live, and they know I'm a Christian. So I just let them decide, if ever, to bring that topic up with me. Its my duty to love all people even if I disagree with what they do.

However, what disturbs me is people's ability to blind themselves to the true nature of their actions. Being proud of someone who is coming out or even being nice to someone because they are homosexual is no different than reverse racism...just in a sexist context.

I see so many people treating homosexuals differently so as to be agreeable with them "nice", but people don't realize that unbeknownst to them, they have a attitude of superiority over homosexuals. Kind of like a "oh that poor homosexual, lets be nice to them because they are in need of support". To "support" someone means you view them as unable to do something alone.

This is self-righteous, self-serving, and covertly derogative to homosexuals. If I were a homosexual, I'd be offended by the attention. Merely giving attention to this is an acknowledgement that it is "abnormal".

There is an obvious physical design in the sexual anatomy of the human body created for a specific purpose. There are opposite ends that "match" the other's.

Sexuality aside, it generally considered "unsafe" to use a product in a way other than intended; how it was created to function.

Again, not attacking homosexuals here, or anyone at that; just wanting to bring something to light.

I know this isn't popular opinion and will offend some people. Though I apologize for any hurt feelings...here I stand, because I have the balls to stand for what I believe in even though I will be hated for it.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but I truly hope they are your own feelings and not just, because a book told you that you need to believe a certain way. I am not sure what you mean by "people being blind to the true nature of their actions." If it is their inborn nature, they should be able to express themselves freely without fear of alienating people who are unjustly homophobic.

I have a few homosexual friends, but I feel like the difference between you and I is that I don't view their lifestyle as being a sin. They are who they are and yes, there are other species of animals that have exhibited homosexual behavior. I mean, by your logic, the penis can only go in one hole, the vagina, to justify us being inline with nature/god/whoever. I am pretty sure the majority of us have stuck it in the other two port holes that were not "designed" for penial penetration. I am not trying to be graphic, but I am trying to show that using the argument "that doesn't go there" is not a strong argument whatsoever.

Supporting a person/player/whoever coming out as being gay doesn't mean they cannot do it by themselves. It does, however, mean that we can empathize with the cultural hurdles they will have to clear for no longer hiding and declaring who they are.

Cappster wrote:Supporting a person/player/whoever coming out as being gay doesn't mean they cannot do it by themselves. It does, however, mean that we can empathize with the cultural hurdles they will have to clear for no longer hiding and declaring who they are.

Some people do not get it.

Nobody HAS to empathise ...

All that is needed is to respect other people's choices and lives.

And there is no need to bring a righteous religious or anti-religious argument in this discussion as it only distracts from the main issue:

The true test of non-discrimination is to regard this situation as a NON-EVENT, which the media is glamorizing because it makes (and sells) "news".

Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans for over a decade and a half. Stay away from football operations !!!

"I’m never under the assumption that you draft for need. You draft the best available football player on the board. ... Because, in the long run, they are the ones who will help you win the most games." - Scot McCloughan

Cappster wrote:Supporting a person/player/whoever coming out as being gay doesn't mean they cannot do it by themselves. It does, however, mean that we can empathize with the cultural hurdles they will have to clear for no longer hiding and declaring who they are.

Some people do not get it.

Nobody HAS to empathise ...

All that is needed is to respect other people's choices and lives.

And there is no need to bring a righteous religious or anti-religious argument in this discussion as it only distracts from the main issue:

The true test of non-discrimination is to regard this situation as a NON-EVENT, which the media is glamorizing because it makes (and sells) "news".

And one day it will be a nonevent as it will be a cultural norm, but today is not that day. Just like the other minority groups that had to breakdown barriers, homosexuals will part of the majority daily culture. I agree with the sentiment that all we have to do is to accept another persons choice in how they want to live their life. Unfortunately, many Americans do not accept and do not want to tolerate the homosexual lifestyle and the main basis for their belief system is based upon religion. The two, in most cases, are synonymous with one another and people use their religious beliefs to justify their disapproval of homosexuals.

What puzzles me is this: if this is a NON EVENT, why is it worthy of a thread?

The sad thing is that we still live in a society where this topic seems to merit even a passing second of discussion, even when that discussion is initiated by somebody who started the discussion by telling us all that it's not worthy of discussion.

I'm not sure what we're discussing here. This is yet more clear proof that you can put 10 Redskins fan into a room and hear 10 different opinions about a topic on which you'd think a consensus had already been reached.

UK Skins Fan wrote:What puzzles me is this: if this is a NON EVENT, why is it worthy of a thread?

Because the media has made a "news" bonanza out of it. It is a reaction to the extent of printed and tv media coverage. I am sure these may not be front page sports news in the UK but in the US, it is.

Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans for over a decade and a half. Stay away from football operations !!!

UK Skins Fan wrote:What puzzles me is this: if this is a NON EVENT, why is it worthy of a thread?

Because the media has made a "news" bonanza out of it. It is a reaction to the extent of printed and tv media coverage. I am sure these may not be front page sports news in the UK but in the US, it is.

Plus our president hyped it up even more with the telephone love stuff.

UK Skins Fan wrote:What puzzles me is this: if this is a NON EVENT, why is it worthy of a thread?

Because the media has made a "news" bonanza out of it. It is a reaction to the extent of printed and tv media coverage. I am sure these may not be front page sports news in the UK but in the US, it is.

But the critical tone of your opening post appeared to be aimed not at the media, but at Mr Collins? It left me puzzled.

No, it's not front page news here, but we've had similar stories. There was passing excitement about the "coming out" of Gareth Thomas, a former captain of the Welsh rugby union team. Similarly, the story of footballer Robbie Rogers made headlines for a while.

The story here is that it IS a story, even now in the 21st century. But that's not Jason Collins' fault, even though he did utter/write the words that started the press machinery rolling.

Last edited by UK Skins Fan on Thu May 02, 2013 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

UK Skins Fan wrote:What puzzles me is this: if this is a NON EVENT, why is it worthy of a thread?

Because the media has made a "news" bonanza out of it. It is a reaction to the extent of printed and tv media coverage. I am sure these may not be front page sports news in the UK but in the US, it is.

Plus our president hyped it up even more with the telephone love stuff.

Nice job mr president, way to stay on top of things (so to speak)

And that's just a politician being a politician. Sad, but climbing onto bandwagons is what these people do. Heads of state really shouldn't be going anywhere near this stuff.

UK Skins Fan wrote:What puzzles me is this: if this is a NON EVENT, why is it worthy of a thread?

Because the media has made a "news" bonanza out of it. It is a reaction to the extent of printed and tv media coverage. I am sure these may not be front page sports news in the UK but in the US, it is.

Plus our president hyped it up even more with the telephone love stuff.

Nice job mr president, way to stay on top of things (so to speak)

I know! I mean after seeing it on SI's cover, their website, ESPN, their website, CNN, their website, FOXNEWS, FOXSPORTS, CNBC, any number of sports related websites (e.g. DEADSPIN, Kissingsuzykolber, etc.), it being tweeted and retweeted around the globe, twice, hearing about it on the radio, receiving press corps briefings on it, the nerve of the president to make a <250 character comment on it. That CLEARLY is what caused the hype to go overboard, for sure.

I know he got a pretty good zip on the ball. He has a quick release. . . once I seen a coupla' throws, I was just like 'Yeah, he's that dude.'"

UK Skins Fan wrote:What puzzles me is this: if this is a NON EVENT, why is it worthy of a thread?

Because the media has made a "news" bonanza out of it. It is a reaction to the extent of printed and tv media coverage. I am sure these may not be front page sports news in the UK but in the US, it is.

Plus our president hyped it up even more with the telephone love stuff.

Nice job mr president, way to stay on top of things (so to speak)

I know! I mean after seeing it on SI's cover, their website, ESPN, their website, CNN, their website, FOXNEWS, FOXSPORTS, CNBC, any number of sports related websites (e.g. DEADSPIN, Kissingsuzykolber, etc.), it being tweeted and retweeted around the globe, twice, hearing about it on the radio, receiving press corps briefings on it, the nerve of the president to make a <250 character comment on it. That CLEARLY is what caused the hype to go overboard, for sure.

One thing you forgot.. he called him directly to congratulate and told him he's a hero. Actually, that's what I was referring to by him hyping it up. I'd be more impressed if he would call at least a few parents of children who were raped or murdered and offered words of kindness. If that's to much to do, how about our president calls NOBODY and just does his f'n job like he's been doing?
First your against something, then voting time your for something else.. and now it's like he's doing something to back up his other stance.

UK Skins Fan wrote:What puzzles me is this: if this is a NON EVENT, why is it worthy of a thread?

Because the media has made a "news" bonanza out of it. It is a reaction to the extent of printed and tv media coverage. I am sure these may not be front page sports news in the UK but in the US, it is.

Plus our president hyped it up even more with the telephone love stuff.

Nice job mr president, way to stay on top of things (so to speak)

I know! I mean after seeing it on SI's cover, their website, ESPN, their website, CNN, their website, FOXNEWS, FOXSPORTS, CNBC, any number of sports related websites (e.g. DEADSPIN, Kissingsuzykolber, etc.), it being tweeted and retweeted around the globe, twice, hearing about it on the radio, receiving press corps briefings on it, the nerve of the president to make a <250 character comment on it. That CLEARLY is what caused the hype to go overboard, for sure.

One thing you forgot.. he called him directly to congratulate and told him he's a hero. Actually, that's what I was referring to by him hyping it up. I'd be more impressed if he would call at least a few parents of children who were raped or murdered and offered words of kindness. If that's to much to do, how about our president calls NOBODY and just does his f'n job like he's been doing? First your against something, then voting time your for something else.. and now it's like he's doing something to back up his other stance.

And I voted for the guy so I'm gonna talk how I feel about it

\

Whether you voted for him or not has no bearing on your right to talk about him, right? I feel fairly confident that's like a right in this country or something.

As for the highlighted portion, you've assumed he doesn't simply because he did call Collins? That's kinda odd.

Or are you saying you'd be more impressed if on the day this dude made this announcement that not one other active american male professional athlete has ever made before, but that may or may not be a big deal, depending, President Obama decided to call a rape or murder victim's parents and then made that public?

I know he got a pretty good zip on the ball. He has a quick release. . . once I seen a coupla' throws, I was just like 'Yeah, he's that dude.'"