StubbornPuppet wrote:I'm totally new to the club, so my opinion on the name of a league and the bad history between members doesn't amount to squat... so I won't offer it. I'll just say, "I don't see why this conversation is taking place in the public portion of the forum.

I know you're new to the club, but you're not new to online forums are you? People are opinionated and have more of a back bone when sitting behind a computer, even if you know who they are. Fact is, people disagree and there is nothing you can do about it. Sometimes they are stupid points or semantics, sometimes they are more relevant. Either way, they don't see eye to eye and online forums are just another outlet for these confrontations.

Back onto part of the topic. I'm not saying that the club should take money out of the am pot and put it in the pro pot, but should the pros have to sit around and wait while 2-3 divisions of ams are paid out and sift through the merch before getting their cash? I don't. Should pros have to sit around and wait while they award ctp's? I don't, I've played in events where I won the CTP and chose not to put my name on the card, because I knew I'd have to wait around even longer to get the prize, and when I did, it is probably something I don't want or use anyway. Most AMs are still in the experimental phase of trying different discs, where pros have set molds that they throw and don't really change much, until something new comes out and they want to try it (which is rarely offered as CTP's). Pros have also sat through countless player meetings, so many, that they could probably run one. Don't even get me started on the late fee, because most pros are there plenty early to practice putts, scope out the pin placements, etc. If the club can (at least) run a few events that bypass all that time, they might find more pros showing up. It is also (usually) more lucrative for pros to independently set up a meeting and course and everyone throw in $5 or $10, winner take all. Sand bagging keeps pros from showing up too. You're right, Bryan Johnson is talented, and so he should be rewarded for that. Is it worth his time and money to show up and beat 2 people and take home $30? No, there should be more flighted events in St. Louis. If 60 people show up, then the field should be split into 3 divisions of 20 after round 1. This prevents bagging and increases the payout.As far as the numbers that show up at events, I agree with Ron. If we have close to 500 members and we're only getting 50 to show up, then there is something wrong with the club or administration, or advertising. I've (personally) marked the club emails as spam because I get so many of them. When you take this approach to advertising, the message gets lost in the cluster because you get so many emails that you just start to ignore them. If you have a routine email blast that comes out, maybe, the first Monday of the month (or something), then people are more apt to read them and pay attention to the contents. Additionally, the club needs to do a much much much better job or organizing, categorizing and managing the website because finding the information you are looking for is like looking for a needle in a haystack at times. Course kiosks should also house the information and be updated, swapped out on a regular basis. If you never change to look of the contents, it just blends into the background and no one sees it. Humans are visual creatures and gravitate to what is appealing to the eye. I tried to help and create event flyers, but was micro-managed by someoen that didn't know what they hell they were talking about. This is all Marketing 101, but I guess it is a complex concept for our president.

Jeff, all you have to do is tell me you don't want them and I'll take you off the list - consider it done.

I agree with Stubborn Puppet that a public forum is no place for personal attacks for which Jeff Irwin is well known for. This is an informational forum - not a place to swing a punch or for snarky comments.

The vast majority of our members do not play in tournaments. They are members because they love disc golf and want to support it. Their money is reinvested in our courses and that reinvestment offsets the rental costs of our tournaments. Our members’ trust in us is held as sacred. It is the board’s responsibility to be good stewards.The 50 to 60 players who play tournaments benefit from our large membership base in the form of better courses. All of us benefit from our numbers in lower prices across the board. The upward pressure to raise prices is diminished because more people are contributing.

With regards to Jeff's 'Marketing 101', his art is great but you could not read the information through it. The question became, are we promoting art or a tournament?

BTW, Nikko will be playing this weekend at the Endicott Open. All pros must sign up by 8p this evening. Ams can walk up on Saturday. Pre-reg is recommended.Chris K

Chris K wrote:With regards to Jeff's 'Marketing 101', his art is great but you could not read the information through it. The question became, are we promoting art or a tournament?

I find that hard to believe. Well, maybe through the eyes of a grand"master" but the general demographic of St. Louis tournament participants isn't even old enough to start thinking about the master's division. And those that are, have gotten lasik and are smart enough to get the general gist of the message (save one). Fact of the matter is that you just wanted to control something that was neither your place nor specialty. Again, I'm not going to stand over your shoulder in your garage and tell you how to change the oil on the minivan, that would be disrespectful.When it comes to one of my specialties, I expect the same respect I would show you and your specialty. Especially, when it was clear that you didn't know what you were/are talking about. You want to put so much information on the flyers because there is always some sort of gimmick for the event. All you really need is date, time, course, cost and maybe a couple other small things to hype it up. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Running a disc golf club and putting on events is not hard as long as you follow a formula that works. B you refuse to do that because, for some reason, you feel like you've got a better widget. I've got news for you, you don't and I think the numbers prove that. As annual membership increases, so should the tournament turnout and, based on the numbers I've been seeing online and hearing about, that hasn't happened.

Myself and 4 other people I know are club members that don't play the tourney's. The reason we don't play in the tournaments is because we can't play at a competitive level and 18 holes is about the limit for one day -before fatigue takes over. We all joined because we wanted to be part of the scene, support the free courses, meet other casual DGer's and get some of the perks (like the discounts).

I figure that if, using the law of averages, myself plus 4 equals 5, divided by 500 members is 100. So, if 100 of the members feel the same way (a safe assumption I think), then that has already automatically narrowed the field to 400. I also figure that since we are in the middle of an economy that has been shown to be seriously effecting the financial status of 65% of Americans that we can safely assume that 65% of the club members might be having a hard time affording to pay the tournament/league entry fee's - whether they cost $20, $10 or even $5. It wouldn't make sense to gamble $20 for a 1 in 40-50 chance that you might get a payout... especially since, as it has already been so kindly pointed out, the same 20-30 people are going to win every time anyhow. 45% of 400 leaves 140 members that are interested and would be able to afford to play in a tournament. I realize that this is a broad generalization and that people who play DG are hardcore, so let's say 225 members (instead of 140) to account for that.

It looks to me like there are about 15 tournaments held in the area per year (probably wrong...). Let's assume that most of those remaining 225 people are adults and must have full time jobs (because they can afford to pay) and many of them probably have families. I think that it's relatively safe to assume that the persons I'm narrowing down to are not going to be willing or able to play more than half of these tournaments (at least if they intend to keep their jobs, marriages and whatnot) because of prior commitments and just being too busy.

I think I've taken the figures about as far as I can (since I really suck at math) and it seems that after a few other statistics come in to play that 40-50 people in each local tournament is about right. After all, this is St. Louis - and St. Louis is not exactly the biggest DG scene in the country by any stretch. Hey, don't get me wrong, we have a good DG scene, some awesome courses and great people... but we're not the biggest game in town and this bickering (which I have allowed myself to become part of) isn't helping.

It's obvious that everyone who's been posting in this thread has some very valid points and good ideas. Too bad that isn't being used to actually accomplish anything more than a prolonged argument.

Since this topic is still public and hasn't been deleted (surprising), I would like to propose another suggestion: Let's split the thread right after the first post and change the name of the rest of it...

Soo, how about that new league, huh? Who's gonna be playing?

We all seem to have the same goal here, "can't we all just get along?"

P.S. It has already been pointed out to me that my math is wrong. Sorry.

Jeff:I applaude anyone who wants to donate their time to organizing disc golf events in the St. Louis area. I think your idea for this League has a purpose and we will soon see if other disc golfers also find it so. I haven't read anywhere in these post of anyone saying that you shouldn't start this league. The focus of the discussion is about the "NAME" of the league. You obviously had an issue yourself with the name, otherwise you would not have posted the below referenced quote in your orginal posting.

Fine Print for the politicians: [i]This league is in no way shape or form in any way related to the illegal substance known on the street as "pot." The name has no relation whatsoever, it is merely an acronym for those players looking to tour. This is not a gathering of individuals for the purpose of participating in the illegal consumption of substances that are considered harmful to human beings or to cause anyone to get their panties in a bunch. This is not in anyway a way to encourage anyone of any race, religion or nationality to participate in any type of illegal activity, including, but not limited to the consumption of illegal substances such as "drugs." Please understand that this league has no manipulative ability or control over anyone in any regards and will not depict any "drugs" as being "cool" in anyway. This is a family friendly league, so as long as you're not a small minded, control hungry fascist, you are more than welcome to attend our league.

Lets not pretend that the last few line were not a shot at the RCF and the people who run it. Was it really necessary? You are using the RCF discussion board. It has posted rules.

In addition to the legal issues all RCF Message Board members agreed to when they signed up for this message board, any use of the message board that is abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, or sexually-orientated towards anyone on or off our message board will be grounds for action from the RCF Message Board Moderator.

We all know who you were talking about, and yes I think that your post should have been edited or deleted for that reason.

Is it that hard to find a better suited name for this new league? The flyer looks great and if it passes the "parks dept friendly" review, I will still have a problem calling it by your orginal name. You state that this is a "league" but the flyer says "Tour". Wouldn't P.O.L. Players Only League be a better suited name? How about P.O.L.T. Players Only League Tour.

I had to add the fine print disclaimer after "our" president tried to suspend me from the website I created. It was only after I was threatened by the ban hammer that I added "advertising fine print" to set his little mind at ease. Marketing and advertising is about increasing awareness as much as anything and it appears as though we have done just that for this league. Maybe the people are looking to watch the fireworks, maybe they're interested in the league itself. I don't see anyone going up to Dave and telling him to stop printing pot leaf stamps or stop selling tye-dye because it could have some underlying meaning... Again, this league, tour, whatever was designed for Pros. So, the original name was the "Pro Only Tour" which makes more sense. However, I did not want AMs to feel unwelcome, so I elected to change the name to a more suitable "Players Only Tour." Even now I am still amazed that people are making such a big deal about the name of the league. You either like it or you don't and it doesn't really matter. I don't expect the RCF to put it on their schedule or anything else. As far as the Parks Dept is concerned, don't be so naive to believe they don't know what goes on. But, we bring more good to the course than bad. We put thousands of dollars into the courses every year, clean it up and lets not forget all the pavilion rentals that DGers account for over the year at all the courses. But, if you think that they're reading our website and forming new opinions based off one league, think again. If I had that much power, I would use it for something much more lucrative than just starting a twice a month league. If I had that type of power, I could get the Parks Dept to put a course in every park they have, or run events for us, or fund even better courses, etc. This is just another thread buried among the jibberish they have come to know as the DG website

PS: They flyers have already been made, printed and distributed, so lets not cry over spilt milk, lets just enjoy another outlet for competitive disc golf in St. Louis.

in the first post, you state that "After round 1, the field is divided into Pro & Am to prevent bagging"

any idea on how you will handle/determine the split? ie- top 70% of 1st round scores are in the pro field, bottom 30% of players in the am? or will you just sort of play it by ear the day of each 'tournament'?

i'm intrigued by the lower cost & 100% (cash) payout, but am curious how this setup will work out for 'true amateurs', of which i am one, as anyone who's seen me play will readily attest.

Ted, The way I see the split going, we'll cut the field in half. If there are 20 participants, 10 will be am and 10 pro. Obviously, this isn't a steadfast rule every time, but more of a guideline. If the bottom 2 people in the pro division are tied, it makes more sense (to me) for them to be the top of the am field. In theory, this league can be successful, but there will be growing pains along the way and everyone has to understand that you can't always split the field right down the middle. Another example is if there is an odd number of participants, etc.Jeff