Hopefully he can replace Pena as a reliable left handed middle relief guy down the stretch

Craig Grebeck

08-03-2010, 12:19 PM

Hopefully he can replace Pena as a reliable left handed middle relief guy down the stretch
...

CWSpalehoseCWS

08-03-2010, 12:24 PM

Wow that was fast. I figured at earliest late, late August.

chisoxfan4life

08-03-2010, 12:30 PM

...

Oops, just as a MR, not LH. I always think of Andrew Sisco (who was LH) when I think of Pena. Both big relievers

WizardsofOzzie

08-03-2010, 12:38 PM

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38540014/ns/sports-player_news/

Wow is this the fastest a player has ever made the majors?

As far as one of our prospects go, I'm not sure. League wide, 21 players have skipped the minors entirely and went straight to MLB. Just this year Mike Leake did it for the Reds.

Banix12

08-03-2010, 12:42 PM

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38540014/ns/sports-player_news/

Wow is this the fastest a player has ever made the majors?

It's pretty fast but there are 20 guys since the draft started that started their careers in the majors. There were a whole bunch more before the baseball draft was enacted but it was more common to happen then. Especially in the late 40's and 50's under the Bonus Rule.

Most recent one was Xavier Nady, though he almost immediately got sent down. Before that the most recent famous example was John Olerud who went straight to the majors and didn't play in the minors until his last season in 2005.

http://http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats9.shtml

guillensdisciple

08-03-2010, 12:46 PM

The kid has ridiculous splits for a reliever. I can't wait to see him pitch as a starter (he is a starter right, or are we grooming him to be a reliever?)

I now know who is replacing Freddy next year.

UofCSoxFan

08-03-2010, 12:51 PM

It's pretty fast but there are 20 guys since the draft started that started their careers in the majors. There were a whole bunch more before the baseball draft was enacted but it was more common to happen then. Especially in the late 40's and 50's under the Bonus Rule.

Most recent one was Xavier Nady, though he almost immediately got sent down. Before that the most recent famous example was John Olerud who went straight to the majors and didn't play in the minors until his last season in 2005.

http://http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats9.shtml

21 now...Mike Leake of the Reds did it this year.

Hopefully this serves as an added incentive for our draft picks going forward to sign sooner rather than later. IIRC, Sale signed pretty quickly, at a slightly below market rate, which gave him this opportunity to reach the bigs this year. Had he held out for a few more $k, no way this happens.

The kid has ridiculous splits for a reliever. I can't wait to see him pitch as a starter (he is a starter right, or are we grooming him to be a reliever?)

I now know who is replacing Freddy next year.
You are correct on both accounts. Sale signed at a near-slot money in exchange for being called up to the Sox this year as a reliever (Mainly because Sale already logged a bit of innings at college) and then join the rotation next year if all goes well. A win-win deal for both sides - Jerry saves his money and Sale starts his arb clock early.

UofCSoxFan

08-03-2010, 12:55 PM

The kid has ridiculous splits for a reliever. I can't wait to see him pitch as a starter (he is a starter right, or are we grooming him to be a reliever?)

I now know who is replacing Freddy next year.

Everything I've heard is the plan is to stretch him out next year as a starter. They wanted him in the pen this year to give him the chance of helping the club.

This also seems to be the trend the Sox use for their best pitching prospects, unless they can't avoid it because of injury (i.e. Burhls definitely came up as reliever his first year and I think the same is true for McCarthy.

Between Beckham and Sale, at least there is a silver lining to the low rating of our minor league system...two players have made it to the majors well ahead of the curve and are helping the big league team win games.

voodoochile

08-03-2010, 12:59 PM

Maybe they just want him working with Coop as fast as possible...

BringBackBlkJack

08-03-2010, 01:02 PM

All I know is a perfect catch-phrase after a Sale strikeout would be, "RING 'EM UP!" :redneck

guillensdisciple

08-03-2010, 01:03 PM

Maybe they just want him working with Coop as fast as possible...

It doesn't really look like the kid needs a lot of help.

18 k's through 10. That's insanity.

soxfan43

08-03-2010, 01:03 PM

I'm going to ask a dumb question because I forgot what the correct way to say his name is. Is it just Sale or is it Sa-lay or something like that? I haven't heard his name much on tv or the radio and I already forgot from the draft.

jdm2662

08-03-2010, 01:04 PM

The quickest Sox player was Alex Fernandez who was drafted in 1990 and was up by August. Maybe Lip or some other Sox historians can give the exact date.

balke

08-03-2010, 01:04 PM

Hopefully he can replace Pena as a reliable left handed middle relief guy down the stretch

Pena has the worst stats of the Sox relievers - but for what he does he's been pretty decent.

Sale will make Linebrink disappear completely if all goes well. It'd be nice if Linebrink's July success continues. The bullpen will just be scary.

Get into the playoffs with this kind of pitching and the Sox are going to be scary.

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 01:05 PM

Between Beckham and Sale, at least there is a silver lining to the low rating of our minor league system...two players have made it to the majors well ahead of the curve and are helping the big league team win games.
I believe the bolded part is called "rushing the prospects." It's an indication that the Sox can be stupidly aggressive with prospect handling (Remember Jon Rauch and Boone Logan?). Also, the problem with our minor league is that besides the very few top prospects (who aren't viewed as highly by other teams anyways), we have nothing. Once those top guys graduate or get traded, our system hits the ****hole until it is replenished by next year's draft. Lather, rinse and repeat.

DirtySox

08-03-2010, 01:07 PM

I'm going to ask a dumb question because I forgot what the correct way to say his name is. Is it just Sale or is it Sa-lay or something like that? I haven't heard his name much on tv or the radio and I already forgot from the draft.

Sale. The first one.

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 01:07 PM

I'm going to ask a dumb question because I forgot what the correct way to say his name is. Is it just Sale or is it Sa-lay or something like that? I haven't heard his name much on tv or the radio and I already forgot from the draft.
I belive we are to pronounce it just like how we see it - Sale, like something being on sale. The other Sale in the draft, Josh Sale IIRC, was the one with the weird pronounciation.

soxfan43

08-03-2010, 01:08 PM

I belive we are to pronounce it just like how we see it - Sale, like something being on sale. The other Sale in the draft, Josh Sale IIRC, was the one with the weird pronounciation.

Thanks. I've heard people saying it both ways.

rdivaldi

08-03-2010, 01:09 PM

I believe the bolded part is called "rushing the prospects." It's an indication that the Sox can be stupidly aggressive with prospect handling (Remember Jon Rauch and Boone Logan?). Also, the problem with our minor league is that besides the very few top prospects (who aren't viewed as highly by other teams anyways), we have nothing. Once those top guys graduate or get traded, our system hits the ****hole until it is replenished by next year's draft. Lather, rinse and repeat.

I believe it's because these players had nothing left to prove in the minors and earned their way up. Rauch is a poor example, as he had been in the minors for over 3 seasons and Logan pitched his way to the big club in ST.

If the White Sox win and use their minor league players to keep winning by trading them away, what difference does it make? You don't get extra runs by using home grown players.

Hitmen77

08-03-2010, 01:16 PM

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38540014/ns/sports-player_news/

Wow is this the fastest a player has ever made the majors?

Since I made a comment about it yesterday in the "20th anniversary of Frank Thomas being called up" thread, I'll note that Aug 2, 1990 was also the day that the Sox called up Alex Fernandez - who was their #1 pick that year.

Hopefully he can replace Pena as a reliable left handed middle relief guy down the stretch

I think they're trying to limit the number of innings Sale pitches this year. The best thing about Pena is his ability to pitch long relief when needed. So, I see no reason to get rid of Pena down the stretch.

The kid has ridiculous splits for a reliever. I can't wait to see him pitch as a starter (he is a starter right, or are we grooming him to be a reliever?)

I now know who is replacing Freddy next year.

Edwin Jackson?

Maybe that shouldn't be teal. I guess it depends on how quickly and effectively Peavy can return to the rotation next spring. If he's healthy you've already got Peavy-MB-Floyd-Danks-Jackson.

thomas35forever

08-03-2010, 01:18 PM

Congrats Chris. Hope you're not coming out too soon.

Hitmen77

08-03-2010, 01:20 PM

I believe the bolded part is called "rushing the prospects." It's an indication that the Sox can be stupidly aggressive with prospect handling (Remember Jon Rauch and Boone Logan?). Also, the problem with our minor league is that besides the very few top prospects (who aren't viewed as highly by other teams anyways), we have nothing. Once those top guys graduate or get traded, our system hits the ****hole until it is replenished by next year's draft. Lather, rinse and repeat.

I don't know the details, but I thought part of the deal the Sox made with Sale when he signed with us quickly and without asking for more was that the team would agree to bring him up to the majors this year.

Like I said, that's all I heard about it. I don't know what would happen with such an agreement if the pitcher in question gets lit up in the minors.

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 01:20 PM

I believe it's because these players had nothing left to prove in the minors and earned their way up. Rauch is a poor example, as he had been in the minors for over 3 seasons and Logan pitched his way to the big club in ST.
Rauch was coming off an uninspiring season in AAA, and Logan pitched in rookie ball and very briefly in high A. Both guys impressed the team in ST and got the call, only to be absolutely slaughtered by the Major League hitters. That was being way too agressive and a textbook example of a poor handling of prospects. Beckham played 7 games in AAA. That's hardly proving anything. Yes, he had a nice rookie season but doesn't change the fact that he got called up way ahead of schedule only because Fields wasn't cutting it. As for Sale, I've got nothing against his wish to play with the Sox ASAP but if the Sox were concerned about his development, they would've paid him more money for him to stay down in the minors.

If the White Sox win and use their minor league players to keep winning by trading them away, what difference does it make? You don't get extra runs by using home grown players.
Oh but you get extra money by using home grown players because they are under the team's control for a long time. More money = More room in payroll = More money for FAs. Also, home grown players who go onto become star players are a big draw for the fans. Who was that big dude we drafted that absolutely mashed with us that everyone was sad to see go? I can't remember his name.

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 01:27 PM

I don't know the details, but I thought part of the deal the Sox made with Sale when he signed with us quickly and without asking for more was that the team would agree to bring him up to the majors this year.

Like I said, that's all I heard about it. I don't know what would happen with such an agreement if the pitcher in question gets lit up in the minors.
Yeah, I am aware of that. I'm a bit torn on the Sale deal. Part of me wants to believe that Sale badly wanted to play for a MLB club, and the rest of me believes that the Sox enticed him into taking this deal so that they can save moeny. Call me paranoid, but Sox have rarely busted the slot big time with their first round picks in recent history. I am only hoping that the bolded part holds true with the Sox. I really hope they don't base their decision on ST numbers or how good he looks in ST.

canOcorn

08-03-2010, 01:29 PM

As for Sale, I've got nothing against his wish to play with the Sox ASAP but if the Sox were concerned about his development, they would've paid him more money for him to stay down in the minors.

They couldn't develop him as a starter this summer. He already had pitched a lot of innings this year in college. He had less than 50 innings to use after he signed.

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 01:36 PM

They couldn't develop him as a starter this summer. He already had pitched a lot of innings this year in college. He had less than 50 innings to use after he signed.
But the agreement was also that he would join the rotation next year as well. I am not as averse to having him up here as a reliever as long as Ozzie doesn't put him into pressure situations, but hearing that they already are expecting him to go into rotation scares me a lot.

canOcorn

08-03-2010, 01:38 PM

But the agreement was also that he would join the rotation next year as well. I am not as averse to having him up here as a reliever as long as Ozzie doesn't put him into pressure situations, but hearing that they already are expecting him to go into rotation scares me a lot.

I don't recall anything about him joining the Sox rotation next year. Maybe I missed it, but I thought the only "agreement" was the chance to pitch as a reliever in Chicago this year.

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 01:53 PM

I don't recall anything about him joining the Sox rotation next year. Maybe I missed it, but I thought the only "agreement" was the chance to pitch as a reliever in Chicago this year.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/future-sox/2010/06/white-sox-chris-sale-agree-on-1656m-deal.html

Read the italicized blurb from Baseball America. Well, I guess I am overanalyzing the chance to join rotation next year as joining the rotation next year but the fact remains the Sox are willing to let him skip the minors as a starter.

russ99

08-03-2010, 02:00 PM

With Jackson brought in as the new 4th/5th starter, I can see the chances of Sale closing for us next year improving greatly.

doublem23

08-03-2010, 02:05 PM

With Jackson brought in as the new 4th/5th starter, I can see the chances of Sale closing for us next year improving greatly.

Why? Garcia will be gone next year, Buehrle and Jackson are FA after 2011. Sale's future is in the rotation.

russ99

08-03-2010, 02:07 PM

Why? Garcia will be gone next year, Buehrle and Jackson are FA after 2011. Sale's future is in the rotation.

Peavy
Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Jackson

Where's he gonna pitch?

We cut loose Bobby and spend his $8M on the lineup, Sale as setup or closer.

KRS1

08-03-2010, 02:08 PM

This is indeed going to be an interesting week or so for personnel moves between him and Teahan.

Sockinchisox

08-03-2010, 02:09 PM

Peavy
Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Jackson

Where's he gonna pitch?

We cut loose Bobby and spend his $8M on the lineup, Sale as setup or closer.

And who replaces Peavy if he gets hurt, or Jackson if he's bad?

You keep Sale in the minors as a SP.

doublem23

08-03-2010, 02:10 PM

Peavy
Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Jackson

Where's he gonna pitch?

We cut loose Bobby and spend his $8M on the lineup, Sale as setup or closer.

Charlotte. Or in the bullpen. I don't see the point of having him close when we have other closer candidates already who won't be moving to the rotation soon.

voodoochile

08-03-2010, 02:11 PM

With Jackson brought in as the new 4th/5th starter, I can see the chances of Sale closing for us next year improving greatly.

I disagree. I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox moved a starter this off season though, but feel if they want Sale to be a starter long term, he's better served spending the year in AAA staying stretched out and continuing to work on his stuff.

Still having an abundance of good pitching is always fun because it makes it easier for the Sox to acquire someone in trade. Now if we can just get Jackson to actually make some strides and look respectable these next few weeks, the Sox can decide if they want to trade someone this off season for a young slugger or even a catcher...

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 02:12 PM

Where's he gonna pitch?
In the minors, hopefully.

We cut loose Bobby and spend his $8M on the lineup, Sale as setup or closer.
I hope not. We better not have wasted the 13th overall pick on a reliever. If Jenks goes, who closes? And I thought money was not an issue even with the Jackson acquisition.

Read the italicized blurb from Baseball America. Well, I guess I am overanalyzing the chance to join rotation next year as joining the rotation next year but the fact remains the Sox are willing to let him skip the minors as a starter.

I didn't see that before. I don't think there's a lot of expectation from the Sox that he'll be ready for the rotation coming out of ST next year. I don't think he'll be doing a whole lot in the AFL if he's up here the rest of the year.

soxinem1

08-03-2010, 02:20 PM

Maybe they just want him working with Coop as fast as possible...

Coop'll, fi----, ummm, hmmm...........

Coop'll make him.

guillensdisciple

08-03-2010, 03:01 PM

Great way to start your White Sox career too, right in the middle of a push to the playoffs.

By the looks of it, he might be the greatest White Sox pitcher to come out of our farm since Mark.

Do work Sale.

doublem23

08-03-2010, 03:21 PM

Great way to start your White Sox career too, right in the middle of a push to the playoffs.

By the looks of it, he might be the greatest White Sox pitcher to come out of our farm since Mark.

Do work Sale.

Setting the bar awfully high there, aren't we? How will he surpass the amazing accomplishments of Kip Wells, Royce Ring, Lance Broadway, and Gio Gonzalez?

TDog

08-03-2010, 03:29 PM

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38540014/ns/sports-player_news/

Wow is this the fastest a player has ever made the majors?

Ever? Not even close. Bob Feller was a major league starter at the age of 17, striking out 11 hitters per nine innings in that first year, although he didn't pitch his first shutout until he was 19. He didn't complete his first 20-win season until he was 20 and didn't pitch his first no-hitter until he was 21. (It wasn't the first time the White Sox faced him, either.) Feller wasn't the youngest-ever pitcher to pitch in the majors, although he was one of the best.

I don't know who holds the distinction as the youngest White Sox pitcher of all time, but long before Terry Forster was dubbed a "big fat tub of goo" by David Letterman, he made the 1971 White Sox out of spring training, the season after he was drafted in the second round (Bee Bee Richard was the first round pick, and he broke camp with the big club in 1971 as well). Forster made his debut on Easter Sunday, a game I attended, but he established himself as the go-to southpaw reliever in late April when he came into the ninth inning in a game in New York with the bases loaded an no one out and sent the game into extra innings.

Rich Gossage, who the Sox drafted in the ninth round of that 1970 draft out of his Colorado Springs high school, didn't come up until 1972 when he was 20.

But, of course, David Clyde made his debut with the Texas Rangers just days after they selected him as the first pick in the 1973 draft. He had recently finished his high school season and was only 18.

I'm happy for Sale. If the White Sox make the postseason (and I believe they will) there will be some interesting decisions on who will make the postseason roster should Sale pitch well.

soltrain21

08-03-2010, 03:32 PM

Ever? Not even close. Bob Feller was a major league starter at the age of 17, striking out 11 hitters per nine innings in that first year, although he didn't pitch his first shutout until he was 19. He didn't complete his first 20-win season until he was 20 and didn't pitch his first no-hitter until he was 21. (It wasn't the first time the White Sox faced him, either.) Feller wasn't the youngest-ever pitcher to pitch in the majors, although he was one of the best.

I don't know who holds the distinction as the youngest White Sox pitcher of all time, but long before Terry Forster was dubbed a "big fat tub of goo" by David Letterman, he made the 1971 White Sox out of spring training, the season after he was drafted in the second round (Bee Bee Richard was the first round pick, and he broke camp with the big club in 1971 as well). Forster made his debut on Easter Sunday, a game I attended, but he established himself as the go-to southpaw reliever in late April when he came into the ninth inning in a game in New York with the bases loaded an no one out and sent the game into extra innings.

Rich Gossage, who the Sox drafted in the ninth round of that 1970 draft out of his Colorado Springs high school, didn't come up until 1972 when he was 20.

But, of course, David Clyde made his debut with the Texas Rangers just days after they selected him as the first pick in the 1973 draft. He had recently finished his high school season and was only 18.

I'm happy for Sale. If the White Sox make the postseason (and I believe they will) there will be some interesting decisions on who will make the postseason roster should Sale pitch well.

I'm pretty sure he meant from being drafted to being into the league.

doublem23

08-03-2010, 03:32 PM

Ever? Not even close. Bob Feller was a major league starter at the age of 17, striking out 11 hitters per nine innings in that first year, although he didn't pitch his first shutout until he was 19. He didn't complete his first 20-win season until he was 20 and didn't pitch his first no-hitter until he was 21. (It wasn't the first time the White Sox faced him, either.) Feller wasn't the youngest-ever pitcher to pitch in the majors, although he was one of the best.

Wow that is absolutely not what he was referring to, but good try.

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 03:32 PM

Setting the bar awfully high there, aren't we? How will he surpass the amazing accomplishments of Kip Wells, Royce Ring, Lance Broadway, and Gio Gonzalez?
Well the kid's about to surpass the great Kyle McCulloch, which is a pretty impressive feat on its own. Let's give the kid some due. You are right though - it will be very hard for him to also surpass the immortal beings you mentioned. If he can do that, he would be moving himself closer to the whole 'nother level of realm in Aaron Poreda. That I don't see happening much.

guillensdisciple

08-03-2010, 03:36 PM

Well the kid's about to surpass the great Kyle McCulloch, which is a pretty impressive feat on its own. Let's give the kid some due. You are right though - it will be very hard for him to also surpass the immortal beings you mentioned. If he can do that, he would be moving himself closer to the whole 'nother level of realm in Aaron Poreda. That I don't see happening much.

What happened to Aaron? Still learning how to throw a curve ball?

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 03:45 PM

What happened to Aaron? Still learning how to throw a curve ball?
He was converted to full-time bullpen duties, still down in the minors. I think the shock of being traded and demoted to a bullpen role made him suffer some kind of amnesia. Now he's trying to learn how to throw a baseball. Oh how the mighty has fallen...

Craig Grebeck

08-03-2010, 04:22 PM

Setting the bar awfully high there, aren't we? How will he surpass the amazing accomplishments of Kip Wells, Royce Ring, Lance Broadway, and Gio Gonzalez?
One of these is not like other.

Wells, too, was quite decent.

DirtySox

08-03-2010, 04:22 PM

One of these is not like other.

Wells, too, was quite decent.

I would love Gio back. He was one of my favorites.

Daver

08-03-2010, 04:23 PM

Maybe they just want him working with Coop as fast as possible...

I find that hard to grasp since Kirk Champion has a better reputation with working with young pitchers at this point.

TDog

08-03-2010, 04:24 PM

Wow that is absolutely not what he was referring to, but good try.

Bob Feller was signed out of high school and pitched in the big leagues immediately. David Clyde was drafted out of high school and pitched in the big leagues a few days later. In fact, Eddie Bane started a game for the Twins a few days after he was drafted the same day as Clyde.

I don't possibly see how he could have been referring to anything I didn't address in my post.

Craig Grebeck

08-03-2010, 04:28 PM

Sale isn't coming up to work with Coop. He's coming up because a) he can help and b) he's better than Erick Threets.

oeo

08-03-2010, 04:38 PM

I worry whether Sale will be able to hold up as a starter. I hope he's not starting next year and I don't think he will be. Honestly think Sale will eventually be traded due to the possible health concerns, a la Brandon McCarthy.

I would love Gio back. He was one of my favorites.

Me too, I loved Gio. Glad to see he's doing well.

rainbow6

08-03-2010, 04:48 PM

One of these is not like other.

Wells, too, was quite decent.

Kip Wells was an awfull major league pitcher. Led the league in losses twice. Once led the league in walks. Over thirty games under .500...

Putrid.

Craig Grebeck

08-03-2010, 04:48 PM

I worry whether Sale will be able to hold up as a starter. I hope he's not starting next year and I don't think he will be.

Me too, I loved Gio. Glad to see he's doing well.
I think they will move slowly. By all indications, they won't need him at the major league level -- barring some catastrophe, of course.

khan

08-03-2010, 04:50 PM

There are a lot of dice being thrown around by the SOX.

Here's hoping the chances they're taking on a crappy converted OF [Jackson] and an unproven, virtually unmentored kid [Sale] work out.

This is a LOT of leverage to throw around. If it works out, great! But, we shall see...

Craig Grebeck

08-03-2010, 04:50 PM

Kip Wells was an awfull major league pitcher. Led the league in losses twice. Once led the league in walks. Over thirty games under .500...

Putrid.
It's not likely that an awful major league pitcher would throw over 1300 innings in 11 seasons with an ERA of 4.71, ERA+ of 94.

khan

08-03-2010, 04:52 PM

Kip Wells was an awfull major league pitcher. Led the league in losses twice. Once led the league in walks. Over thirty games under .500...

Putrid.
Nothing quite like using team statistics, like wins, losses, or RBI to measure an INDIVIDUAL's quality as a player.

You damn kids GET OFF MY LAWN with your new-fangled ERA+ and WHIP and all those SCARY stats!

Craig Grebeck

08-03-2010, 04:54 PM

Nothing quite like using team statistics, like wins, losses, or RBI to measure an INDIVIDUAL's quality as a player.

You damn kids GET OFF MY LAWN with your new-fangled ERA+ and WHIP and all those SCARY stats!
Well, his WHIP sucked, for what it's worth. But the guy wasn't Royce Ring or Lance Broadway by any means.

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 05:08 PM

I worry whether Sale will be able to hold up as a starter. I hope he's not starting next year and I don't think he will be. Honestly think Sale will eventually be traded due to the possible health concerns, a la Brandon McCarthy.
Oh come on, the kid has not been injured so far and the Sox trusted his health to hold up enough for them to draft him. His mechanics are better than some of the other abominations out there. Is his arm action unorthodox? Yup. Does that guarantee injury? Not necessarily. Everyone has a unique body that responds differently to different things. Even guys with good mechanics can suffer from health concerns (Papelbon, Verlander). Peavy's lasted for a good while despite throwing all-arm and recoiling nastily. Let's not worry about his health until he starts getting shut down with an injury repeatedly a la Carlos Quentin.

Well, his WHIP sucked, for what it's worth. But the guy wasn't Royce Ring or Lance Broadway by any means.
The former was drafted over Joe Blanton, so he's gotta be good. The latter takes his shirt off before delivering a life-threatening beatdown on a man who was just trying to do the right thing. That's ****ing badass. Of course Wells can't touch these guys.

Hitmen77

08-03-2010, 05:09 PM

Well, his WHIP sucked, for what it's worth. But the guy wasn't Royce Ring or Lance Broadway by any means.

Yeah, he wasn't outstanding or anything. But if I'm remembering the timing correctly, I would have gladly have had Kip Wells back instead of the black hole we had in the 5th starter spot.

khan

08-03-2010, 05:19 PM

Well, his WHIP sucked, for what it's worth. But the guy wasn't Royce Ring or Lance Broadway by any means.

Oh, I agree with you. But the other poster was using team metrics like "losses" to judge Wells' efficacy as a SP; The idea of using a team metric to judge an individual player is something that is kinda dumb, to tell you the truth...

oeo

08-03-2010, 05:22 PM

Oh come on, the kid has not been injured so far and the Sox trusted his health to hold up enough for them to draft him. His mechanics are better than some of the other abominations out there. Is his arm action unorthodox? Yup. Does that guarantee injury? Not necessarily. Everyone has a unique body that responds differently to different things. Even guys with good mechanics can suffer from health concerns (Papelbon, Verlander). Peavy's lasted for a good while despite throwing all-arm and recoiling nastily. Let's not worry about his health until he starts getting shut down with an injury repeatedly a la Carlos Quentin.

Why are you taking what I said personally? I don't think his body type and mechanics are going to hold up for 200 innings a year. I'm not a professional or anything, nor do I claim to be, so I'm probably going to be wrong, but it's hard to see him throw 200 MLB innings. The Sox rush guys up through the majors so they look more appealing in trades, why wouldn't they draft a high ceiling guy who could reach the majors quickly? The guy dropped to us, he was supposed to be in the Top 5, it was a great pick. Sale would look very appealing in a year or two.

All I'm saying is the Sox usually have a good idea of the health surrounding their pitchers. They sent McCarthy packing because he was a similar tall, scrawny guy with the possibility of spending a lot of time on the DL. They talked him up, yet never actually put him in the rotation.

The Sox could get a pretty good haul for Sale after next year assuming he's healthy and has a good year, not sure what you would be so against.

downstairs

08-03-2010, 05:24 PM

The quickest Sox player was Alex Fernandez who was drafted in 1990 and was up by August. Maybe Lip or some other Sox historians can give the exact date.

According to Baseball Reference:

Drafted and signed June 4, 1990
Debut August 2, 1990

Sockinchisox

08-03-2010, 05:26 PM

I worry whether Sale will be able to hold up as a starter. I hope he's not starting next year and I don't think he will be. Honestly think Sale will eventually be traded due to the possible health concerns, a la Brandon McCarthy.

If what they promised him is true, which it seems like it is, Sale will be competing for a rotation spot next Spring. Although I have no idea whose spot he would be gunning for.

Pablo_Honey

08-03-2010, 05:43 PM

Why are you taking what I said personally? I don't think his body type and mechanics are going to hold up for 200 innings a year.
I didn't take it personally. If I came off as that, I apologize but it baffles me that you already gave up on the kid who has yet to pitch a full season. Guys don't have to be bulky to be durable and his mechanics aren't certainly bad enough to warrant an injury. Besides his funky arm action, his mechanics are all right, not great but good enough. Want to see an injury waiting to happen? Asher Whateverhisnameis. I'd say he gets hurt before Sale does. Or not, because pitching is so unpredictable in terms of health.

The Sox rush guys up through the majors so they look more appealing in trades, why wouldn't they draft a high ceiling guy who could reach the majors quickly? Sale would look very appealing in a year.
Because if the health concerns were that bad, it would be lowering his stock and teams would try to nab him at in lower rounds a la Tanner Scheppers. The Sox believed in his health enough to draft him up at #13 and most mocks had him higher.

All I'm saying is the Sox usually have a good idea of the health surrounding their pitchers. They sent McCarthy packing because he was a similar tall, scrawny guy with the possibility of spending a lot of time on the DL. They talked him up, yet never actually put him in the rotation.
McCarthy never made it into the rotation because we had a strong rotation to begin with (Burls, Garland, Contreras, Vazquez and Freddy). When there was a spot available, Kenny decided to roll the dice and acquired Danks, a much more highly touted prospect. Also one example of a guy isn't enough to apply to every other guy who fits that description. Sale passed the physical and he's been cruising so far. Let's not jump to the conclusions and say he will get injured.

The Sox could get a pretty good haul for Sale after next year assuming he's healthy and has a good year, not sure what you would be so against.
Not by himself, he won't. Especially if he doesn't get much playing time as a starter because relievers aren't worth that much. I'm against trading him because last time the Sox drafted high, they got Gordon Beckham. We got the guy who was heralded the 2nd best lefty college arm in the draft at #13. I wanna see what this kid's got before shipping him off.

Daver

08-03-2010, 05:57 PM

The Sox could get a pretty good haul for Sale after next year assuming he's healthy and has a good year, not sure what you would be so against.

In terms of what?

Unproven pitchers are worth somewhat more than are the orts from last nights dinner, but not by much, unless you are getting unproven pitching in return. I don't see what "haul" you are referring to.

TheCommander

08-03-2010, 06:21 PM

Setting the bar awfully high there, aren't we? How will he surpass the amazing accomplishments of Kip Wells, Royce Ring, Lance Broadway, and Gio Gonzalez?

Don't forget the legendary Scott Ruffcorn!

ghostface36

08-03-2010, 07:27 PM

this is awesome news i'm excited to see sale pitch, the league isn't ready for him

canOcorn

08-03-2010, 07:33 PM

Sale isn't coming up to work with Coop. He's coming up because a) he can help and b) he's better than Erick Threets.

Is he, right now? I know he's got better stuff and his K rate is awesome, but I doubt this move is made without needing Torres today.

I know command is supposed to be a strength, but I've never seen him pitch and the 6 BB's in 10 innings leaves me a little concerned. Will he be a walk machine for a bit or is it just a coincidence in a small sample?

Daver

08-03-2010, 07:34 PM

this is awesome news i'm excited to see sale pitch, the league isn't ready for him

In fairness, Wells looked pretty good when he first came up. Didn't he get hit by a comeback liner that shook him up and caused him to start to pitch scared?

ghostface36

08-03-2010, 08:10 PM

The league wasn't ready for Scott Ruffcorn, Rod Bolton, Kip Wells, Josh Fogg, or Jon Rauch either.
considering that he was concerned a top 15 talent i'd imagine only 20 or so teams have advanced scouting on him+the school he went to and the fact the league has never faced him

Frater Perdurabo

08-03-2010, 08:16 PM

I would imagine the Sox did plan to bring him up this year, but perhaps not this soon. But three factors probably caused them to accelerate the timetable:

1. Williams flamed out and Threets has turf toe or whatever it is;

2. They have upcoming games with the Orioles and Twins, both of whom have a lot of LH hitters;

3. Sale was more impressive than they had expected.

doublem23

08-03-2010, 08:34 PM

In terms of what?

Unproven pitchers are worth somewhat more than are the orts from last nights dinner, but not by much, unless you are getting unproven pitching in return. I don't see what "haul" you are referring to.

:rolleyes:

Is that a joke? If the Sox were able to trade Sale, he'd immediately become one of our most coveted assets, after Danks and Beckham.

TDog

08-03-2010, 08:42 PM

No actually apparently it was... :tongue:

In fairness, Wells looked pretty good when he first came up. Didn't he get hit by a comeback liner that shook him up and caused him to start to pitch scared?

I was thinking the same thing. In 2001, he had an ERA under 3 in July, and it was between him and Mark Buehrle to be the defacto ace of the staff, David Wells not being as strong as billed. He really looked like he was one of the league's best young pitchers. And then he just lost it.

Sockinchisox

08-03-2010, 08:48 PM

http://twitter.com/jimcallisBA/status/20267431662

canOcorn

08-03-2010, 09:46 PM

I would imagine the Sox did plan to bring him up this year, but perhaps not this soon. But three factors probably caused them to accelerate the timetable:

1. Williams flamed out and Threets has turf toe or whatever it is;

2. They have upcoming games with the Orioles and Twins, both of whom have a lot of LH hitters;

3. Sale was more impressive than they had expected.

Threets doesn't have turf toe or any other injury. This was a move to bring up Torres today and not lose Threets to waivers.

Daver

08-03-2010, 09:59 PM

:rolleyes:

Is that a joke? If the Sox were able to trade Sale, he'd immediately become one of our most coveted assets, after Danks and Beckham.

No.

It isn't.

Frater Perdurabo

08-03-2010, 10:05 PM

Threets doesn't have turf toe or any other injury. This was a move to bring up Torres today and not lose Threets to waivers.

I figured that was the case. The other points still stand, though.

Maybe Threets has toejam and they're calling it turf toe. :tongue:

Foulke You

08-04-2010, 12:03 AM

In terms of what?

Unproven pitchers are worth somewhat more than are the orts from last nights dinner, but not by much, unless you are getting unproven pitching in return. I don't see what "haul" you are referring to.
Unproven but "highly regarded" pitchers get traded for proven MLB players all the time in the modern era of baseball. I could name dozens of trades where this was the case. I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to here unless I misunderstood your comment.

doublem23

08-04-2010, 04:36 AM

No.

It isn't.

Then you're crazy, Sales was considered a Top 5 talent by some in this year's draft. Saying he has "no value" because he's "unproven" makes you look like you haven't paid attention to baseball in, oh, the last 50 years. I'm not saying the Phillies would trade us Roy Halladay for him, but you're making it sound like we'd be lucky to net a bag of balls.

doublem23

08-04-2010, 04:39 AM

I would love Gio back. He was one of my favorites.

Gio sucks. He's still got some time to turn it around, but right now, especially considering the park he plays in, he are baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

Craig Grebeck

08-04-2010, 07:24 AM

Gio sucks. He's still got some time to turn it around, but right now, especially considering the park he plays in, he are baaaaaaaaaaaaad.
3.69 ERA, 120 hits allowed in 134 innings, 1.336 WHIP, 3.27/4.08 home/road split. What is bad about any of that?

Zisk77

08-04-2010, 10:59 AM

3.69 ERA, 120 hits allowed in 134 innings, 1.336 WHIP, 3.27/4.08 home/road split. What is bad about any of that?

Yep, have to agree he's pretty good. he gets a more consistent change-up he could be lights out. Cutter in on righties too would help.

LoveYourSuit

08-04-2010, 11:10 AM

3.69 ERA, 120 hits allowed in 134 innings, 1.336 WHIP, 3.27/4.08 home/road split. What is bad about any of that?

He does pitch in a pitcher's park, but road numbers are not all that bad.

I too feel like he might become a very serviceable SP in this league.

Trading him for Thome, no big deal. Trading him for Swisher, :angry:.

Randar68

08-04-2010, 11:41 AM

Then you're crazy, Sales was considered a Top 5 talent by some in this year's draft. Saying he has "no value" because he's "unproven" makes you look like you haven't paid attention to baseball in, oh, the last 50 years. I'm not saying the Phillies would trade us Roy Halladay for him, but you're making it sound like we'd be lucky to net a bag of balls.

You can't trade him for a year, IIRC, so that value TODAY is zip.

Coops4Aces

08-04-2010, 11:52 AM

You can't trade him for a year, IIRC, so that value TODAY is zip.

It's like you didn't read any other posts on the topic.

:rolleyes:

Is that a joke? If the Sox were able to trade Sale, he'd immediately become one of our most coveted assets, after Danks and Beckham.

The Sox could get a pretty good haul for Sale after next year assuming he's healthy and has a good year, not sure what you would be so against.

doublem23

08-04-2010, 11:53 AM

You can't trade him for a year, IIRC, so that value TODAY is zip.

Yeah, no ****, follow the posts up the ladder and you'd see I already noted that, the post I originally questioned doesn't mention the one-year rule, it only says that since Sale is "unproven" he's a worthless commodity.

kevingrt

08-04-2010, 02:41 PM

Anyone else feel that Sox fans are on edge today? Maybe it's the first start for Edwin Jackson or the ugly game last night but a lot of PO'ed and edgy Sox fans today.

Coops4Aces

08-04-2010, 02:44 PM

Anyone else feel that Sox fans are on edge today? Maybe it's the first start for Edwin Jackson or the ugly game last night but a lot of PO'ed and edgy Sox fans today.

It's the DH situation, trust me. All rational fans have lost all patience now that the trade deadline has passed and reality is staring us straight in the face.

Note: I don't want this to become another Kotsay thread.

oeo

08-04-2010, 03:03 PM

In terms of what?

Unproven pitchers are worth somewhat more than are the orts from last nights dinner, but not by much, unless you are getting unproven pitching in return. I don't see what "haul" you are referring to.

A centerpiece for an All Star? A couple other plus prospects?

I clearly said IF he had a good year next year, his value would be high. A lefty with his type of ability who has already been successful in the major leagues at 22...you don't think teams would find him very appealing?

sox1970

08-04-2010, 03:07 PM

http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/20328911622

MisterB

08-04-2010, 03:14 PM

It's the DH situation, trust me. All rational fans have lost all patience now that the trade deadline has passed and reality is staring us straight in the face.

Note: I don't want this to become another Kotsay thread.

Could you kindly refrain from making judgments as to who's "rational" or not.

Thank you.

thomas35forever

08-04-2010, 03:20 PM

http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/20328911622
Ryan Sheckler?

Randar68

08-04-2010, 04:30 PM

Yeah, no ****, follow the posts up the ladder and you'd see I already noted that, the post I originally questioned doesn't mention the one-year rule, it only says that since Sale is "unproven" he's a worthless commodity.

What does "purchase the contract of" mean anyway? I've heard that phrase for years, but isn't Sale already under contract with the White Sox (by virtue of being in their organization)?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_it_mean_to_purchase_a_players_minor_leag ue_contract
Not sure how reliable that info is, but I think that's how I heard it explained before.

It might have been covered, but I don't have it in me to search these couple Sale threads, so: What does Sale feature, pitch-wise? Where does he project? How hard does he throw?
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/future-sox/chris-sale.html
This should answer your all questions, I hope.

sullythered

08-04-2010, 07:02 PM

[URL]http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/future-sox/chris-sale.html
This should answer your all questions, I hope.

What does "purchase the contract of" mean anyway? I've heard that phrase for years, but isn't Sale already under contract with the White Sox (by virtue of being in their organization)?

Sale is signed to a minor league contract, to be added to the forty man roster his contract has to be "purchased" by the MLB club, it's a technicality that allows him to play at the MLB level while still being signed to a minor league contract. It's part of the very confusing part of the CBA that was hammered out when the reserve clause was abolished to open the door for free agency.

Hitmen77

08-04-2010, 07:49 PM

Was he on the 40 man roster prior to today? I've always interpreted "purchasing the contract" to mean a player was added to the 40 man roster.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_it_mean_to_purchase_a_players_minor_leag ue_contract
Not sure how reliable that info is, but I think that's how I heard it explained before.

Sale is signed to a minor league contract, to be added to the forty man roster his contract has to be "purchased" by the MLB club, it's a technicality that allows him to play at the MLB level while still being signed to a minor league contract. It's part of the very confusing part of the CBA that was hammered out when the reserve clause was abolished to open the door for free agency.