Sunless Skies

This sounds exceptionally exciting, can't wait to back another Failbetter Kickstarter! And we have the bonus of enjoying Zubmariner in the meantime.

I do echo a few others in this thread also in feeling slightly disappointed that Castles in the Roof isn't looking like it's going to happen. ---BUT--- on the Failbetter website, it says "Coming on 11 October 2016: Zubmariner, the first expansion to Sunless Sea!" (https://www.failbettergames.com/sunless/). The "FIRST" expansion to Sunless Sea. Could that mean there may be more expansion(s?) in the future? Why say it's the first, if it's going to be the only one?

Either way, I'm excited, for both Zubmariner and Sunless Skies! Looking forward to hearing more Failbetter! Keep up the brilliant work!

I posted this earlier on the Bazaar announcement thread, but it goes much better here.

I voted for this when the card came up and I'm absolutely thrilled I wasn't the only one. I'll happily join the kickstarter effort when it happens ^_^

What was the Sunless Sea kickstarters like anyway? I wasn't around when those happened.

For me one of the most intriguing details is that the Empress is there and personally leading the whole thing. I wonder how the Empress came to make her decision to travel into the High Wilderness. Up to now she's been perfectly willing to let her Empire rot away while she nurses the Consort in her silent, shuttered up palace. Presiding over a massive new imperial project is a pretty big change. Did the Merchant Venturer come back and, much like Christopher Columbus and his stories of gold, bring the Empress tales of otherworldly power or medicine that would improve the Consorts state (this would be my first guess)? Or did something happen to drive her from the Neath? Well, whatever the reason, Her Enduring Majesty is about to take a big step into the limelight.

One thing though, with the Empress there it's not hard to see how the New Empire quickly becomes authoritarian:

Why is the Empress' Palace shuttered?Apparently the Empress doesn't like light. Or sudden movements, loud noises, foreigners, treason, peaches. When you're Empress, you can do this kind of thing.

I'm not sure that the Judgments dying is all do to the Liberation btw. Naturally the Revolutionaries will do whatever they can however they can - but the High Wilderness is so UNCOMPREHENDINGLY VAST. I think in one of FL's Destinies Earth ends up likened to a little speck of sand on a large beach? The Judgments probably have many enemies, some of them fellow stars (the Judgments can kill one another after all), and the Neath isn't the only dark place in existence. The Sorrow Spiders came from one of those dark spaces, after all. Then there are all the things that are behind the mirrors (we only see some of the border places of that other place, which is just as vast as the High Wilderness).

Contemplating the High Wildernesses vast scale, I was also very much intrigued by this detail here:Failbetter wrote:

Trains: everything having to do with trains! Like, that influence kind of stands out, doesn't it? And in a science fiction romance set in outer space! Normally when one imagines exploring outer space its with space ships. But trains are clearly going to be an important element.

Does the High Wilderness have what amounts to a gigantic intergalactic railway network? Or is the New Empire building one? This wouldn't be out of character for the Victorian time period - the British Empire in India, Canada, and Africa was very much an empire of railroads, which allowed the overcoming and conquest of vast spaces (and destruction/plundering/enslavement of indigenous peoples by the British elite). Moving around in some sort of space railroad would allow Failbetter to represent the High Wildernesses sheer expanse and spacial diversity while at the same time ensuring that the time spent traversing said expanses and diversity won't become detrimental to the players enjoyment of the game.

The trains might be the means of traveling between game/story locations, 80 Days style (taking the train being a story in itself). Or they might be the means of traveling between multiple game maps, which would then be explored Sunless Sea style (like, one map for the places around the Egg and another map for the Forge of Souls, with you zailing your ship around after getting off the train). Whichever it is, I'm sure it will be a lot of fun.

On the one hand, I most certainly trust FBG's judgement (if you'll pardon the inadvertent pun.) On the other hand, well, many a studio has decided to shake up its franchise by rebooting the universe following some sort of cataclysmic, society-destroying event. Deadlands had the post-apocalyptic Hell on Earth and the, er, post-Earth Lost Colony. EverQuest II was set in the ravaged ruins of the original EverQuest. In short, &quotburn everything and start again&quot is an established tool of the writer's craft.

Those are generally commercial decisions though, aimed at getting consumers to buy the next one-shot game, RGP book, figurine collection, or toy. After all, once a consumer has bought every current product he's not going to spend any more money. For instance, before Transformers the Movie the transformers toy market was saturated with transformers figures, so they proceeded to kill off a number of old favorites and introduce a host of new characters to create new sales. Failbetter has a different model with Fallen London. FL generates constant revenue through subscriptions and fate purchases, so there's no need or desire to replace it with something else. They'd want FL players to stay FL players while also purchasing Sunless Sea and Sunless Sky and for players who start with Sunless Sea and Sunless Sky to become players of FL. Fears of replacement are unwarranted.

As for the Destiny issue, when Kickstarting Sunless Sea they made lots of unique FL content for backers who put in 30 to 80 dollars (looking forward to this ^^). They could easily create a storyline that gives a kickstarter player access to a special Sunless Sky themed Destiny (much like certain associations or fate locked storylines give the player access to special Destinies). So Sunless Sky would merely be one Destiny among many, one that just so happens to have its own game. There you go.edited by Anne Auclair on 9/26/2016

Around the time he left Failbetter, Alexis Kennedy wrote an article on choice and endings in video games, and how to reconcile the two - especially when you want people to keep playing and investing. Obviously he's not part of the development of Sunless Skies and may never have been, but I suspect that FBG already has plans for how to make this work.

th8827 wrote:

My guess is that this does not really take place in Space, but either NORTH, or EAST.

Well, both of those locations do lead directly to the High Wilderness (for varying values of 'directly') so... I guess both?

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally hyped about Sunless Skies, but there's one thing I would like even more: new free content in FL, especially conclusions for some of those unfinished stories that have been around for ages (Dilmun Club, Last Constable, Labyrinth of Tigers coils, Light Fingers ambition update...)

I was hoping FB might take some time to address these things after the release of Zubmariner. So, I'd really appreciate a little heads-up whether anything like that is planned for the coming months, Hannah? I'm not looking for specifics, just something like &quotYeah, that's definitely on our agenda&quot or &quotNope, not something we're thinking about right now&quot...

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally hyped about Sunless Skies, but there's one thing I would like even more: new free content in FL, especially conclusions for some of those unfinished stories that have been around for ages (Dilmun Club, Last Constable, Labyrinth of Tigers coils, Light Fingers ambition update...)

I was hoping FB might take some time to address these things after the release of Zubmariner. So, I'd really appreciate a little heads-up whether anything like that is planned for the coming months, Hannah? I'm not looking for specifics, just something like &quotYeah, that's definitely on our agenda&quot or &quotNope, not something we're thinking about right now&quot...

See, the cynic in me doesn't expect much on that front . . .

I think I sent them an email once, asking - if it's an issue of time/money - whether the updates could be paid-for instead, but they said fairly that it wouldn't be right, as it'd sort of be changing the rules midway in the game (metaphorically speaking), and if you start something free, then the expectation is it should all be free. Just, everything seems to be focused on paying members at the moment . . . paid-for games, paid-for subscriptions . . . in the meantime, the festivals are free (which is something), but all other content just seems lost in limbo . . .

Heck, I think one of the stories has been incomplete for at least over three years (I want to say six)? I'm not sure why it can't be that a story gets updated/completed every so many months, or even just - here and there - a new step gets added . . . I wouldn't mind if the whole game gets made into a paid-for thing, but - at the minute - it seems neither one thing or the other.

I know FBG has to make money, but I would have thought complete storylines would draw in more free members into paying?edited by Robin Alexander on 9/27/2016

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally hyped about Sunless Skies, but there's one thing I would like even more: new free content in FL, especially conclusions for some of those unfinished stories that have been around for ages (Dilmun Club, Last Constable, Labyrinth of Tigers coils, Light Fingers ambition update...)

I was hoping FB might take some time to address these things after the release of Zubmariner. So, I'd really appreciate a little heads-up whether anything like that is planned for the coming months, Hannah? I'm not looking for specifics, just something like &quotYeah, that's definitely on our agenda&quot or &quotNope, not something we're thinking about right now&quot...

There will be eventually a Last Constable storyline in Sunless Sea, perhaps released around Zubmariner - some of the qualities and such are already in the game files. Maybe there will be an update to the FL storyline at the same time.

This is one of my favorite novel series of all time, even more than Narnia And it does have a LOT of similarities to the FL/SS cosmology already. One of the reasons I'm drawn to both is that they constantly feature the mythologizing of history/science and the historicalization/scientification of myth.

--Feel free to socialize me Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will

If this game were to take place a hundred years or more in the future or was said to be a 'And this *may* come to pass...' Sort of deal then I think it would alleviate a lot of the worry people are having. Mostly I worry because I love Fallen London's themes and overall setting and stamping a bit of a 'Finality' on it just seems sorta depressing. Granted, at this point with so little information this might just be needless hand wringing.

--When Mortals from the path of Honour stray,and strong passions over reason sway,What are they then but Brutes? ‘Tis vice alone that constitutes. Th’enchanting wand and magic bowl, The exterior form of Man they wear,But are in fact both Wolf and Bear,The transformation’s in the Soul.

Glimpses of the High Wilderness, as revealed by the Merchant Venturer storyline in Sunless Sea.

[spoiler]The Nature and Perils of the Environment

Light is not constant in the High Wilderness, even with the Judgments at the peak of their power, which necessitates a ready supply of artificial light. The High Wilderness is also very cold and home to dreadful voices, both of which must be protected against. Human travelers will find themselves longing for the surface of the Earth and will treasure anything that helps them remember it. The cold winds and darkness will painfully transform whoever ventures into it. This sounds a lot like the Neath and as the Judgments fail and heavens grow darker this resemblance will only grow.

Something Bright (Scintillack)

&quotThank you. Where I'm going... there will be light enough, eventually. But we'll need something we can manage ourselves.&quot

&quotWe won't need it for its taste. There are voices which must be drowned.&quot

Something Azure (Carnelian Sapphires)

&quotThat blue! I will confess something to you. This is my least practical purchase - but I wanted something to remember the blue. Thank you. Cheap at the price.&quot

wrote:

A Place Above

You are through! All around you the blistering, wonderful night of the High Wilderness. The stars watch you balefully. The winds of nowhere tear at your hair, strip away your skin.

Dealing with the Inhabitants

The Venturer expects that he will have to frighten or conspire with the High Wildernesses’ various inhabitants. Becoming fluent in the fiery intricacies of the Correspondence will also be essential to the success of his venture.

Something Savage (Hunting Trophies)

&quotThis will do nicely. I need persuasive threats, not weapons - and these are persuasive.&quot

Something Difficult (A Fluke Core)

“The Flukes. The greatest of the shapelings. And the Lorns are the greatest of the Flukes. By accepting this Core, I make myself an accomplice in a crime… but perhaps, in a sense, this one will return home. Perhaps.”

Something Silky (Sorrow Spider Silk)

&quotSpiders. Spiders... they are the first to know the speech of stars. I will be the last.&quot

Commercial Opportunities

The trade the Masters carry out in London is but a faint shadow of the heavenly commerce they practiced in the High Wilderness. This commerce has its own currencies and is highly rule based. The markets are large and voracious and to successfully profit a merchant (or a combination of merchants) must be prepared to satisfy many different desires. There is, notably, a demand for Neath products in the High Wilderness. The soul trade also apparently originates in the heavens, which is pretty significant. In the Neath the soul trade is entirely driven by the mysterious designs of Hell and the avarice of the Pentacoast Apes - but souls apparently have a whole other purpose and value that we have yet to see and are created/sold on demand. It's also hinted that one can map out the heavens by what can be sold where.

The Venturers’ Scheme

“Trade exists beyond the Gate, in the High Wilderness. The Bazaar itself has told me this. It will earn the currencies of heaven. I will return, strong with strange riches. Will you come with me? I don’t know when we’ll return. But when we do…we will be armoured in glory.”

Something Sorrowful (Human Skulls)

&quotSeven. It's always seven. I don't know why. But if we are to profit by this scheme, we have to hew to the rules.&quot

Something Romantic (Romantic Literature)

“Beyond the gate, there will be many appetites. I cannot even be sure how much use these will be - but I can hope.”

Something Warming (Zoup)

&quotIt's a specialist taste. But where I'm going, there are specialist customers.&quot

Something Durable (Stygian Ivory)

&quotAll these are lessons. Contours of history. There will be scholars and marvellers... but enough of that.”

Something Deep (Strange Catches)

&quotThank you. This is perfect. I can buy cave-trout down at the docks any day of the week, but I'll need something a little different. Something for the shapelings.&quot

A Place Above

The Venturer is laughing: Your cargo unfolds like a map.

“First,” the Venturer says, “The Forge of Souls. Let’s see who they’ll make for us.”

The Judgements have been portrayed in a fairly antagonistic light up until now-but if they're starting to die en masse, I wonder if they might just be desperate enough to try and hire human mercenaries of their own to combat whatever is killing them. What might a star have to offer as a reward?