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No, it's doesn't. However, I was thinking about this today and realised that having the characters act logically and realistically would require the writers and directors to put far more effort into their stories and it probably wouldn't fit properly in a 11 or 12-episode series, or wouldn't fit with what they wanted to do with the series, hence the characters' 'duuuuh-ness'

Great argument you made there. I'm astounded by your reasoning and deductive skills. Bravo.

I'll say it again.

If people act completely logically and without emotion, how does drama even happen? There is no story then. The characters would know not to get stuck here with their emotions. The characters would solve these problems instantly. So doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick to some degree?

And I would say that considering this show has spanned merely a couple weeks and the emotional trauma some of them are under (Though some question whether there really is such emotional trauma to begin with, which is fine), then it's no real surprise that it's taken just this little bit for the culmination of emotions to occur this episode.

My two cents about Menma's reveal scene: I think it happened too late. I hate it when a solution is crystal clear to the viewers but the characters in the show just don't get it. It means that the characters are dumbened down for the sake of the plot. This is a flaw in an otherwise excellent series.

I'm a bit confused on how you came to this conclusion or even this assumption in the first place. The audience has way more knowledge of the situation then any of the characters could possibly have. Whether it be that they are unable to find out or aren't in the right mind to find out, it doesn't mean they are stupid. The audience is supposed to figure it out before them in these cases. If they figured it out before the audience could within reason, then they better have an explanation...

Characters, like people, do not have perfect photographic memory. They certainly don't write everything down, nor can they just go through flashbacks at will like we can. Nor would they constantly spend every day thinking of every minor detail

Also, considering that most of the cast probably thought that Jintan was delusional, there's a bias. And Menma isn't exactly the brightest, being dead and all... and we have no idea how others perceive supernatural events.

Great argument you made there. I'm astounded by your reasoning and deductive skills. Bravo.

I'll say it again.

If people act completely logically and without emotion, how does drama even happen? There is no story then. The characters would know not to get stuck here with their emotions. The characters would solve these problems instantly. So doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick to some degree?

And I would say that considering this show has spanned merely a couple weeks and the emotional trauma some of them are under (Though some question whether there really is such emotional trauma to begin with, which is fine), then it's no real surprise that it's taken just this little bit for the culmination of emotions to occur this episode.

Let's forget the "emotionless" bit (what does that have to do with anything). Bad things happen even to people who do everything "right". Our fate isn't as much under our control as we'd like to think.

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Originally Posted by Spoonroo

I think many of the people complaining about the late reveal forget that Menma died when she was 10. She still acts like she's 10. Just think abut that for a moment.

Heck, I'm a teacher. You wouldn't believe all the things that it wouldn't occur to a 10 year old to do without being explicitly told by a parent or teacher. Not to mention the fact that they called her an "airhead" which implies it more.

Let's not forget the scenes of her watching her family and her mother over her shrine, and when she was in Anaru's house - those two scenes seem to explain why, with the mindset of a 10 year old airheaded girl, why she wouldn't show herself. wanting to lessen the sadness of her mother.

I don't see WHY the idea of making some glass float in the air would have occured to her to do. Most of the times that the group showed signs of not believing Jinta outright she was not there for (she tended to stay at home while jintan was out) and Jintan never told her about stuff like that, so how would she have been aware of that? Even the scene when she was trying to get Poppo to see her, he wasn't doubting her existence - none of them were outright saying it yet - and even if there were non verbal cues she's an "airhead" 10 year old, so I wouldn't expect her to notice that. Notice that immediately after she was aware (when she heard Poppo on the phone) what did she do. Immediately try to get the others to notice her, like people are saying she should've. She tried to call them (Yukiatsu and Tsuruko, which I though was a very interesting choice) on the phone, remember. It didn't work, obviously, but she the point is that tried ASAP after a reason existed. Also, hat's how she got them to join, remember, when they were kids - she called them to the clubhouse, so it makes sense that that would be what she tried first.

I like the diary too because she could actually convey a message - it's a way she can talk to them. it makes sense with why she tried to telephone. She wanted to communicate with them. Doing some lame Scooby Doo trick like floating a cup or dumping flour on her does not fit with the serious vibe of the show, and does not let her speak to the others. Even when she tried to communicate to the others, it's always by talking - that's how 10 year olds like to communicate, with words. and I'm glad they did something deep like using the diary - using that item was great. Also, since it was in her handwriting, there's no way it could've been explained as a magic trick or something Jintan set up to trick them, which is probably what Yukiatsu would've said if they had gone the Saturday Morning Cartoon route (float object, dump flour) to try to get her to prove her existence.

You can always doubt. Handwriting isn't that hard to fake.

But I generally agree with you. Sure, she acted sub-optimally, which I guess is where the complaints come from. But that's realistic: people act sub-optimally all the damn time.

Let's forget the "emotionless" bit (what does that have to do with anything). Bad things happen even to people who do everything "right". Our fate isn't as much under our control as we'd like to think.

Yes, a fucking meteor can crash down and destroy your house, and kill the wild hamsters in your garden that you adored since you were 3 years old. Shit happens sometimes.

However, the vast majority of human drama occurs because humans are dare I say it, stupid as hell. Emotion is often the cause of strife amongst us and in shows like this where human flaws are played to a tee, that's pretty much the living breadth of drama.

Otherwise our characters would have already moved on and there'd be no story.

Let's forget the "emotionless" bit (what does that have to do with anything). Bad things happen even to people who do everything "right". Our fate isn't as much under our control as we'd like to think.

Ok... but that changes nothing.

Well, obviously there are situations where you are screwed no matter what you do. But people are flawed creatures and sometimes emotions and personal problems tend to really cloud their judgement, causing them to do irrational things that often will lead to a less desirable outcome.

Basically, I think the point of that post was to show that people aren't robots that pick the most logical choices, and pick negative expected value moves. Characters can be irrational and stupid, but that doesn't mean the plot itself is irrational and stupid; it can still lead to effective drama.

Well, obviously there are situations where you are screwed no matter what you do. But people are flawed creatures and sometimes emotions and personal problems tend to really cloud their judgement, causing them to do irrational things that often will lead to a less desirable outcome.

Basically, I think the point of that post was to show that people aren't robots that pick the most logical choices, and pick negative expected value moves. Characters can be irrational and stupid, but that doesn't mean the plot itself is irrational and stupid; it can still lead to effective drama.

Well, we may not be reading the same posts. Let's see how I broke down Reckoner's post

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If people act completely logically and without emotion, how does drama even happen?

Implies that emotion causes drama to happen.

Quote:

There is no story then.

Emotion is very important, for w/o it there's no story.

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The characters would know not to get stuck here with their emotions.

Implies that emotion can impair their life or their judgement.

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The characters would solve these problems instantly.

That pretty much implies they'd pick the most rational solution, if it weren't for emotional issues and problems stopping them from seeing the issues objectively.

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So doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick to some degree?

Maybe that's a bit too much and I don't necessarily agree they have to be that foolish, but it implies that in a drama, people aren't at 100% mental capacity.

Quote:

And I would say that considering this show has spanned merely a couple weeks and the emotional trauma some of them are under (Though some question whether there really is such emotional trauma to begin with, which is fine), then it's no real surprise that it's taken just this little bit for the culmination of emotions to occur this episode.

Suggests that emotional trauma and the reawakening of these things enables foolish actions (to us) to be reasonable in context.

I don't necessarily agree with it completely, but that's how I saw it.

No, it's doesn't. However, I was thinking about this today and realised that having the characters act logically and realistically would require the writers and directors to put far more effort into their stories and it probably wouldn't fit properly in a 11 or 12-episode series, or wouldn't fit with what they wanted to do with the series, hence the characters' 'duuuuh-ness'

Hey, if everyone in this show was thinking logically and NOT being 'duuuuuuh' WE WOULDN'T HAVE A FREAKING SHOW TO BEGIN WITH.

'Hey, is it true you like Menma?'

'Yes, yes it is. I like Menma.'

MENMA NEVER DIES, WE'RE ALL STUCK WATCHING THE NEXT SEASON OF IKKITOUSEN.

Hey, if everyone in this show was thinking logically and NOT being 'duuuuuuh' WE WOULDN'T HAVE A FREAKING SHOW TO BEGIN WITH.

We would, it would just be very different and mostly likely wouldn't fit in the format they wanted. It requires far more effort and planning to do a story where the characters aren't idiots, so they took the short cut for this series

Well, we may not be reading the same posts. Let's see how I broke down Reckoner's post

Implies that emotion causes drama to happen.

Emotion is very important, for w/o it there's no story.

Implies that emotion can impair their life or their judgement.

That pretty much implies they'd pick the most rational solution, if it weren't for emotional issues and problems stopping them from seeing the issues objectively.

Maybe that's a bit too much and I don't necessarily agree they have to be that foolish, but it implies that in a drama, people aren't at 100% mental capacity.

Suggests that emotional trauma and the reawakening of these things enables foolish actions (to us) to be reasonable in context.

I don't necessarily agree with it completely, but that's how I saw it.

No. I don't claim to know what he meant, but what he wrote is that stupidity is necessary for there to be drama.

I'm fine with people being stupid, and for that stupidity to cause drama. Because, realistically, there is no shortage of stupidity. But saying stupidity's a condition sine qua non for drama is ultimately just an excuse for lazy writing, based on characters being atypically stupid to fit the needs of the plot rather than driving it with their normal personalities.

If people act completely logically and without emotion, how does drama even happen? There is no story then. The characters would know not to get stuck here with their emotions. The characters would solve these problems instantly. So doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick to some degree?

Don't misunderstand, "emotional" does not equal "stupid".
People make irrational decisions due to their emotional state but that's fine. When I say "beaten with the stupid stick" I mean that the characters don't try something that any logical person would do, i.e. telling Menma to move an object.
Please watch Cross Game for an example of a great dramedy where the characters don't behave like idiots.

No. I don't claim to know what he meant, but what he wrote is that stupidity is necessary for there to be drama.

I'm fine with people being stupid, and for that stupidity to cause drama. Because, realistically, there is no shortage of stupidity. But saying stupidity's a condition sine qua non for drama is ultimately just an excuse for lazy writing, based on characters being atypically stupid to fit the needs of the plot rather than driving it with their normal personalities.

The drama in this has a purpose. We're dealing with issues of avoidance, and moving on. If the characters were as good and as logical as most people here expect them to be, there'd be no story. It's not lazy writing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gohan78

Don't misunderstand, "emotional" does not equal "stupid".
People make irrational decisions due to their emotional state but that's fine. When I say "beaten with the stupid stick" I mean that the characters don't try something that any logical person would do, i.e. telling Menma to move an object.
Please watch Cross Game for an example of a great dramedy where the characters don't behave like idiots.

I have seen Cross Game. But that's a much different type of story.

And why would anyone tell Memma to move an object. Jintan wants to avoid her, not confront her. That makes no sense.

Being emotional = stupid. Live with it. Can't believe I'm saying the same thing from Madoka thread.

So it isn't stupid in intellectual way, it is stupid in a more emotional way. I'm using a same example from Madoka thread: Einstein, dreaming of unlocking the ultimate order in universe denied quantum theory because he emotionally couldn't accept that the fundamental building block is extremely random in nature.

I agree that every emotionally moving story requires involvement of "stupid" characters in it to a degree. However, I still can't accept why didn't Jin-tan show everyone that Menma actually exist much much sooner. That's not "emotionally stupid" anymore imo and is dangerously close in being plain idiot. I understand Menma not doing it earlier, but why didn't Jin-tan make the initiative? I proposed the "cat box" theory to explain Jin-tan's idiocy, though now it seems less likely (though still possible). Also, the fact that even now Jin-tan still haven't actively trying to prove Menma's existence needs explanation imo.

First of all, he is still against it. Notice that Jinta murmured "why" when Menma tried to reveal her existence? He clearly had a reason in mind that was and still is preventing him (otherwise he wouldn't ask "why") from doing it, so why don't we hold our breathe, and see if the show will enlighten us on it later?

We would, it would just be very different and mostly likely wouldn't fit in the format they wanted. It requires far more effort and planning to do a story where the characters aren't idiots, so they took the short cut for this series