Ret is not really under represented in PvE or PvP for that matter. They are even the highest represented paladin spec in PvE

In terms of representation towards other specs:

12 dps specs are less represented than retri paladin in PvE
10 dps specs are more represented than retri paladin in PvE

Though seeing as paladin are the most evenly represented class ( all 3 specs are quite even ), that is not really suprising that retri paladins are not in the top represented specs as so many paladins play both holy and prot. Still that being said, more rets and holys and prots.

In PvP, only 7 specs are more represented than retri paladins.
That is, 26 specs that are LESS represented than retris. So they are not really under represented there either.

12 dps specs are less represented than retri paladin in PvE
10 dps specs are more represented than retri paladin in PvE

Of course specs like arms, sub, marks, unholy, and frost are going to be less represented, because that class has a spec that is higher represented than ret.
Not to mention representation means absolutely nothing when it comes to determining how competitive a spec is. Ret is a popular spec overall, but you dont see top guilds bringing 2-3 to their world 1st, 2nd, 3rd heroic Sha of Fear kills do you?

I wonder why people keep stating that Rets are okay in pve regarding HUGE favor of pve fights towards ret and ret is still at the bottom of dps wol- and simc-wise.
The only reason which keeps me from reroll after playing ret for 5 years is my hope for our haste scaling.

The issue in both pve and pvp is roughly the same. Anything we can do another dps can do better. We bring nothing special nor spec specific. There's always a better choice for 10 man pve and every facet of pvp.

In PvE being good at your class and casual raiding(let's say less than 10 hours a week) is enough to get by and clear everything. Though I'm sure somebody will be thinking, if only we had X instead of Y. But generally you learn the encounter and know how to play your class for that type of encounter and you'll get by. The content isn't tuned that tightly.

Being good in pvp usually transfers from class to class and there's so few spots to fill that it makes it hard for a spec like ret or enh to fit in. Regardless of your level of play, simply because YOU would be better playing another class. PvP isn't a scripted encounter that lets you get by, just hitting your rotation correctly.

Synergy is everything and as a ret you don't synergize(?) very well compared to other classes. Train the ret, now what? If you were a warrior at least you'd be taking less damage and can instantly get oor or los. This is just one of many examples.

I think one of the main reasons that Ret has become so under represented in both PvP and PvE is that it got toned down/nerfed and other classes were buffed, which scared away some Rets into the arms of another class. Warriors for example.

Nobody cares about those other specs. Do I seriously have to bring up the ratios of 2200+ players vs entirety? "Represented" is a damn useless stat by itself. PERIOD.

Thread title: "Ret-Severely-under-represented-in-PvP-amp-PvE-WHY"

Wouldn't the entire point be to compare the representation compared with other specs?

Originally Posted by Tangra

Glad you measure representation at scrub levels of gameplay, kind of like Blizzard does. Ret paladins have always had high numbers at mediocre levels of PvP... there are many reasonable explanations for this, such as the fact that Ret Paladins are a massive part of Warcraft lore... Uther, Tirion, Arthas...sadly neither you or blizzard has the analytical skills to understand that a popular spec isn't necessarily a good one. Blizzard also usually ignores the high rated PvP statistics and feed back from top PvPers... probably because it's embarrassing to interact with players who know their game better than they do.

Yes, my stats where from the top 5% in both PvE and PvP, so yeah. If that is your "scrub levels of gameplay", then OK.

Originally Posted by nyc81991

How many people play a spec has nothing to do with how viable it is.

More retribution paladins reach the top 5% in PvP and PvE than the average spec. So should be draw the conclusion that retribution paladins are just better players than others, more likely to be carried than other specs (hey, everyone wanna help a pink paladin rigth?), or that the spec, while not awesome, is not as terribad as most of the other specs?

Not saying that retribution is the best of the best specs, however obviously alot of players manage to play it at high levels, alot more so than alot of other specs.

That being said, think ret is alot better in PvE than PvP. The only problem in PvE is that both prot and holy is also in a very good spot, still, more rets than prots and holys.

Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-01-29 at 01:08 PM.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

I'm well aware that we're doing well in PvE. OP stated that top guilds don't have rets on their roster. Which couldn't be more wrong.

surprized you didn't mention Incarnate which has Butosai, Requital, and Anaxie :P

Prolly the top 5 biggest names in PvE ret in the last 4 years in one guild

---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 01:07 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Megraam

I wonder why people keep stating that Rets are okay in pve regarding HUGE favor of pve fights towards ret and ret is still at the bottom of dps wol- and simc-wise.
The only reason which keeps me from reroll after playing ret for 5 years is my hope for our haste scaling.

this, the hugebloat has potential for us to scale if we get a super mastery / haste tier and a giant fucking 30k top end weapon.

When people say "top guilds" they usually narrow it down a bit further than top 200.

They usually don't mention 10 man either =D

also obscure reference is a top guild? no... Then us 3 should be mentioned

---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 01:44 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Neldarie

Too bad their warriors are as bad as their ret (BL), and Method have never had a decent ret in the past . But ye to stay on topic I really don't see rets being assets for serious 25man raiding atm, we do function pretty well in 10mans where you usually have max 1 other pally if even at all. Personally, since I switched to casual 10man raiding, I'd like to trade BoK for 10% meleehaste as utility we bring.

I have to say even mentioning Nihilum made me giggle. I think top 10-man guilds would get more recognition if they all weren't German/French/Russian with no interaction with the English speaking community.

I have to say even mentioning Nihilum made me giggle. I think top 10-man guilds would get more recognition if they all weren't German/French/Russian with no interaction with the English speaking community.

Didnt he like disband the 25 man and go 10M? Kungen? what happened to all the donation money for the "website" :O

Sorry to break your theory, but I play Arms because I like the spec, even thou we are bottom of the meters(When simmed). I normally end up 4th on recount with equally geared players when doing LFR.

Edit: Bleh, misread your post. Move along, there's nothing to see....

I really wish this thread had not mixed PvP and PvE, as they are in very different shape for Ret right now.

---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 06:15 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Firefly33

Thread title: "Ret-Severely-under-represented-in-PvP-amp-PvE-WHY"

Wouldn't the entire point be to compare the representation compared with other specs?

Yes, my stats where from the top 5% in both PvE and PvP, so yeah. If that is your "scrub levels of gameplay", then OK.

More retribution paladins reach the top 5% in PvP and PvE than the average spec. So should be draw the conclusion that retribution paladins are just better players than others, more likely to be carried than other specs (hey, everyone wanna help a pink paladin rigth?), or that the spec, while not awesome, is not as terribad as most of the other specs?

Not saying that retribution is the best of the best specs, however obviously alot of players manage to play it at high levels, alot more so than alot of other specs.

That being said, think ret is alot better in PvE than PvP. The only problem in PvE is that both prot and holy is also in a very good spot, still, more rets than prots and holys.

As people mentioned, such anlyses are flawed for several reasons.

1) You're comparing us to tanking specs in PvP, and as we all know pretty much only prot warriors are taken seriously.
2) Pure classes are usually given 1 very powerful PvP spec, one mediocre spec, and 1 barely functional one, thus 1 spec from petty much any pure class is barely playable (yes, I realize that this is almost as unfair as Ret being in crap condition, but at the end of the day a melee dps having to re-gear and learn Holy healing is way worse than expecting a pure to switch his play-style a bit and maybe re-gem.)
3) Other hybrids also often have 1 OP spec, like Resto shaman, thus leading to very low numbers of enhance and ele.
4) The constant drama over Ret ever since the Burning Crusade has gotten a lot of people emotionally attached to the spec, and so many of us play it no matter what. As i mentioned before, Ret is also very popular lore-wise, with many major Ret heroes like Uther and Tirion, so an unusually high number of players roll a Ret.

Overall, keep the crappy misinterpreted statistics, and please just play the spec in serious PvP if you want to act like you know anything about it. I cannot possibly understand the urge to go on the forums of a spec you clearly don't play, or understand, and start wasting the time of concerned players who know the spec and are making valid points, just so you can present your flawed research that wouldn't stand up in a STAT 101 class.

Problem for ret (imo) is that we do "ok" on too many areas and aren't put into a "role".
Atm we have alot of utility with our hand abilities, some of our talents increase healing on others and others again increases the powers of our utility.

We do mediocre single target dps (at best) and we're scraping the bottom of the barrel on aoe dps.

Oh and the mother of all curses (atleast in pvp) bubble, it's been a source of "can't be too strong" nerfs ever since arena came along.
In many cases the source of "weakness" for retribution paladins can be sourced back to pvp.
We healed too much -> heals got nerfed to the ground.
We burst too much -> burst gets nerfed.
We have too much utility -> other classes gets purges and shit for them.

list goes on and on, point is that pvp is the source of the retribution weakness.

Another thing is that in cataclysm (and before) we had dominant damage dealers, Templars verdict and mastery were alot ahead of say judgement and crusader strike on overall damage. Now in Mists of Pandaria they're fairly even which means the damage output in pvp is going to be even which means there's only going to be changes in preasure during CDs which can be dispelled or you'll be stunned through them.
Then it's the way our mastery works at the moment.
Templars verdict hits for 100k, mastery hits for 30k.
Suddenly a wild 50% damage increase mechanic appears.
Templars verdict hit for 150k, mastery hits for 45k + 22.5k.
any time a damage increase mechanic is on a boss it's going to cause obscure numbers to appear, making it even harder to balance.

Worst of all though is the stupid excuses and tweets that Ghostcrawler keep making, like the one where reducing the CD on guardian would cause too much "visual noise" in raids...