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Posted 08 October 2011 - 09:56 PM

A bullet button is sort of a subtle solution to laws like in California that requires weapons classified as assault weapons to require tools to remove the magazine. The mag release button is modified in a way where it requires a pointed tool or the tip of a rifle bullet to release the magazine. It was developed to address one of California's crazy gun laws. So far this mechanism has not been challenged by California legislators YET but who know what will happen.

I'm going to assume he was kidding on that one, but if for some reason KWA did that to pass the test (which I don't see how it would be relevant to the whole full auto thing), then all we'd have to do is replace the magazine catch, as there are no laws requiring airsoft guns to have a bullet button magazine release...

I'm tired of that meme. You probably would be "out-gunned" in a speed-ball airsoft. However, in milsim, it's a nonissue. Even when I ran sub-100rd mid caps with my AEGs, I was never "out-gunned". I didn't lay on the trigger like I was some sort of gatling gun. I picked my shots, like any good shooter should. Yes, we do get the kids/newbies who "spray and pray" with hicaps, but the spray method is usually reserved for those who don't know how to use any basic tactics. Even when I played paintball, going up against "pros" with autocockers and so forth, one well-placed shot from my cheap rental was more effective than fifty shots sprayed about willy-nilly.
Out-capacity-for-carrying-ammo? Sure. Out-gunned? Emphatically NO.

Interests:Keeping those damn squirrels from putting their filthy little paws on my peaches in my backyard. Oh, Yes. It's not just a hobby, its a passion!!

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:09 AM

Just telling you from experience. We are not exactly shooting real bullets here so in a game you will not be able to get through a fire fight with 8 40 round mags. Well placed shots or not you are shooting bbs not real bullets. I do not go through more than a couple of mags in a 1 hour game but noobs are not the only ones that spray a hail storm of bbs.

you will not be able to get through a fire fight with 8 40 round mags.

I seem to get by just fine with 6 30 rd mags in my WE M4. I used even less in total ammo capacity in midcaps with my last AEG.
Hell, I spent almost the entirety of Op Bulldog IV with nothing but an M9 PTP and seven mags.
If one is expending more than 320 BBs in one fire fight, one might want to work on movement, tactics, and aiming. No, BBs are not real bullets, however that doesn't mean real world skills are of no consequence.
My selector spends the vast majority of the time on "semi". "Auto" is only used to make the opposition duck, but I'm not a support gunner. If I know I can't hit a target, I don't waste ammo trying to. I don't send twenty BBs in one string. Most of the time, I pull double- or triple-taps with both primary and sidearm.
Out-gunned is only a mindset.

Interests:Keeping those damn squirrels from putting their filthy little paws on my peaches in my backyard. Oh, Yes. It's not just a hobby, its a passion!!

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:16 AM

I think one fact that you are dismissing is that large ammo capacity is a huge advantage in any game. And you are making assumptions that the only ones carrying high caps are a bunch of trigger happy noobs. And I do agree that real life tactics are very effective in milsim but I have seen too many skilled players get over powered by people with high ammo capacity. If you play a role of lonewolf and do alot of sneaking around then yes you should travel light and do not need much fire power. And stealth allows you to do that. However, when your team is head to head against another team, you first test their skills and fire power by shooting at them to see what they will do. And most of the time a full scale attack with massive fire power does the job and very effective (not to mention fun). And just in case that doesn't work you have a couple of team members flank while you keep their heads down.
Most airsoft rifles you see on the field have similar range and accuracy as you do and this is where tactic will play a huge part of your success. But when theres someone dumping large amounts of bb's on you while they creep up, you are already over powered and your only option is to displace if you can. But usually by then you are done.
We could be talking about the same thing here and just disagreeing on different roles we play.

I think one fact that you are dismissing is that large ammo capacity is a huge advantage in any game. And you are making assumptions that the only ones carrying high caps are a bunch of trigger happy noobs .And I do agree that real life tactics are very effective in milsim but I have seen too many skilled players get over powered by people with high ammo capacity.

I believe the majority of hicap users are, obviously not everyone is. Specifically, those who adhere to milsim typically eschew clock-work hicaps.
I've played with "skilled" and "experienced" players who couldn't execute a proper rush if their life depended on it. Hicap only means that the user won't be forced to reload for a while longer. I have also noticed that using a hicap tends (tends, not always) to produce a mentality that proper aiming and tactics are not needed when they can just hose down an area. This mindset only hurts the user. There are a lot of little factors that come into play in situations such as these.
Countermeasures to hicap spayers are often so simple.

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If you play a role of lonewolf and do alot of sneaking around then yes you should travel light and do not need much fire power. And stealth allows you to do that.

I do a lot of sneaking around, with my team. Lonewolfing it doesn't provide the security of firepower or flexibility to perform complex maneuvers that working with a team does. Lonewolfing it, you'll be hard-pressed to actually acomplish an objective.

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However, when your team is head to head against another team, you first test their skills and fire power by shooting at them to see what they will do.

You're reffering to "recon by fire". This is not the only option. In such a situation, depending on many other factors, there are many COAs you could take. Have part of your team fix the opposition to their position with harrasing fire while the other part performs a sweeping maneuver while concealed to flank and surprise. Fairly basic hasty attack. Huge ammo capacity unnecessary. Harrashing fire does not mean constant barrage. It means keeping the oppositions attention focused away from the maneuvering team. Standard rifleman's ammo capacity would more than suffice.

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And most of the time a full scale attack with massive fire power does the job and very effective (not to mention fun).

Fun is subjective. I've played the support role before, found it wasn't to my taste. I find out-smarting my enemy to give me the most enjoyment.

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And just in case that doesn't work you have a couple of team members flank while you keep their heads down.

Well, that is the basic hasty attack I detailed above.

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Most airsoft rifles you see on the field have similar range and accuracy as you do and this is where tactic will play a huge part of your success. But when theres someone dumping large amounts of bb's on you while they creep up, you are already over powered and your only option is to displace if you can. But usually by then you are done.

It's hard to creep up when your hicap is rattling and makes a nice loud buzz when it's empty or just decides it doesn't want to hold the spring anymore. Or the clicks when you have to rewind the spring. Hicaps do run out of ammo too.
If someone is suppressing you with volume of fire, execute break contact and reenage on your terms. Rolling defense also helps slow them down and break up their unit's formation, if they're using one.

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We could be talking about the same thing here and just disagreeing on different roles we play.

I just find the claim that those who don't use clock-work hicaps are at any form of practical disadvantage to be a little insulting. I understand there is a segment of airsofters that love to use hicaps, namely for the illusion of ammo superiority. However, it is my belief that hicaps have no place in milsim airsoft. I don't subscribe to speedball-type play and we don't run our standard games as such. Yes, there are those who bring out hicaps to skirmish with. But it degrades from the milsim experience, chiefly for the user. I have no problem "outgunning" them with my mid/low caps.

I'm sorry of this is long-winded and totally off topic, but I'm afraid that your experiences and expectations with hicaps just don't match up with mine.

Interests:Keeping those damn squirrels from putting their filthy little paws on my peaches in my backyard. Oh, Yes. It's not just a hobby, its a passion!!

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 11:58 AM

You make valid points and I do agree with you that a team that can work well together may not be at a disadvantage with low/mid caps but I don't believe that if you came up against a team with about the same skill level and experience that they would not "out gun" you at any point during the game. Tactics such as you mentioned ( I know that you have more tricks up your sleeve when playing than the ones you mentioned) are not difficult to counter and is easier with those that carry high caps due to the barrage of ammo they can lay on you.
And I also agree that milsim should have a strict realistic aspect of ammo capacity but I respectfully disagree that more ammo CAN NOT out-gun an opponent. And if my statement offended you I apologize but that is what I have seen and experienced over the years. And I play with many ex-military and I have learned much from them. Add skill with large ammo capacity and you have yourself a deadly combination.

In a hypothectical 1:1 match-up with every variable imaginable equalized, a hicap does not guarantee victory. Yes, there are many advantages to using a hicap. But, there are numerous disadvantages to using a hicap, some I have already detailed. A clock-work hicap magazine isn't an infallible bottomless "I win" tool.
It is my experience that the majority of competent teams do not use hicaps at all. I guess this is where our experiences are vastly different. Those in my aquaintance who are more "competitive" tend to throw out hicaps due to their noise and unreliability. I cannot think of any situation that I have ever been involved in which my opponent won out solely due to the use of a hicap.
Every large-scale Op I have attended either outright banned or severely limited the use of clock-work hicap. Not for game balance, but for realism. When you have a dozen members of one squad hosing down with hicaps, I believe you cannot claim to be taking part in any form of milsim and have fully placed yourself into speedball.
While I am ex-military, I have no combat experience at all. The closest I came to any useful trianing was SERE. However, I did study and attend many courses including 1Shepherd. I have faced OIF/OEF Marine veterans and tapped them out with a rubber knife. I am not saying I am better than them, absolutely not. I'm just saying that there are no absolutes, and hicaps are absolutely no practical advantage. To repeat what you said about tactics, hicaps are not difficult to counter.

And I would like to thank you for keeping this discussion civil, mature and thoughtful; a rare occurance on the Internet.

Interests:Keeping those damn squirrels from putting their filthy little paws on my peaches in my backyard. Oh, Yes. It's not just a hobby, its a passion!!

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 01:11 PM

First let me say thank you for your service. It's is people like you that protect our freedom that we all enjoy and sometimes sadly squander.
We are just couple of individuals having a discussion. No need to thank me. I respect your skills and knowledge on this matter.