Defending Support type squads are counted as 1/10th...plus I imagine Disabled Squads also have a defensive AV.

So I suspect the initial AV in the Combat report (AV=2) is the offensive potential...whereas the final AV = 173 is the adjusted Defensive AV....which would include devices with no offensive AV.

Plus - what type of Engineers did you have...only combat engineers reduce forts.

Just the standard engineers organic to a Chinese corps. They probably aren't combat engineers.

I'm starting to agree with BigBadWolf though as the devs have stated many time before in response to my complaints that the combat odds really don't count for anything and just seem to be window dressing.

Yeah, based upon the numbers you present, it is as treespider says. Also, there is clearly a random roll involved (this is Gary). I would say your opponent got a very good roll, but he also has almost the same number of troops you have. you will need at least 17,000 troops to take that place based upon the 5600 showing there, or at least that is what I would calculate.

Combat. All the troops count in defense, but only combat troops on offense. And you have to overcome the bonuses. So a full division for sure with inherent combat engineers, maybe an extra brigade. The defense is brittle, once it starts to crumble it will fall very fast and few casualties to the attacker. Or attack with current forces and wait for a good roll.

Defensive and offensive fire of land units will low on supply will be reduced. Once a unit has less than the total supply it needs there is a chance of having its combat fire reduced. Once totally out of supplies its fire will be greatly reduced.

< Message edited by Empire101 -- 4/16/2012 3:09:18 PM >

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Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times, but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.- Michael Burleigh

Level 4 fortifications give a 1.75x multiplier in addition to the heavy urban terrain which is a 4x multiplier.

The initial unadjusted AV of 2 is the generic AV which even an undefended base has.

Alfred

Alfred,

Do the modifiers here add or multiply? Is the final multiplier 5.75x or 7x?

Ah, this is where you have me at a disadvantage as not being a dev I'm not privy to the exact code. However my understanding is that it is compound. To illustrate my understanding, assume the following simplified situation.

1. Prior to combat the unadjusted AV of a defender is 1000.

2. The defending force is affected by the following factors.

heavy urban terrain = 4x modifier

base fortification level is 4, which = 1.75x modifer

defending units have no supply, which = 0.25 modifer

3. Miraculously, during the fire phase, no devices of the defending force are either destroyed or disabled.

The adjusted AV would therefore be calculated as:

(unadjusted AV)(terrain)(fortification)(supply) = {(1000)(4)(1.75)(0.25)} = 1750 adjusted AV. Note that if the defender had been in full supply the adjusted AV would have been 7000.

4. As the base fortification level before the fire fight is 4, if it is not dropped as a result of the fire fight, the attacker would need to achieve an adjusted AV of 6:1. Hence even the conditions of a totally out of supply unit as per point 2 above, would mean that the attacker would need to generate an adjusted AV of 10500 to dislodge the adjusted AV 1750 of the defending force. You can see that the attacker would have had to have brought along to the party a much greater than 3:1 force.

It also demonstrates that each defender point in this case is worth 1.75 AV when attrited. So some other means such as bombardment or ground attack by air has even greater value because of the final calculated worth of the AV's in that position given that the player desires to use a deliberate attack to finally dislodge them ... it is ironic that say 1 AV is killed in a rough jungle hex is worth more than 3 AV in the open ... but also the opposite is true in that fighting for a well defended rough jungle hex (or urban or whatever but clear) multiplies the value of the opponents forces ..

Ah, this is where you have me at a disadvantage as not being a dev I'm not privy to the exact code. However my understanding is that it is compound. To illustrate my understanding, assume the following simplified situation.

1. Prior to combat the unadjusted AV of a defender is 1000.

2. The defending force is affected by the following factors.

heavy urban terrain = 4x modifier

base fortification level is 4, which = 1.75x modifer

defending units have no supply, which = 0.25 modifer

3. Miraculously, during the fire phase, no devices of the defending force are either destroyed or disabled.

The adjusted AV would therefore be calculated as:

(unadjusted AV)(terrain)(fortification)(supply) = {(1000)(4)(1.75)(0.25)} = 1750 adjusted AV. Note that if the defender had been in full supply the adjusted AV would have been 7000.

4. As the base fortification level before the fire fight is 4, if it is not dropped as a result of the fire fight, the attacker would need to achieve an adjusted AV of 6:1. Hence even the conditions of a totally out of supply unit as per point 2 above, would mean that the attacker would need to generate an adjusted AV of 10500 to dislodge the adjusted AV 1750 of the defending force. You can see that the attacker would have had to have brought along to the party a much greater than 3:1 force.

Alfred

Alfred, I have found your "understandings" to be spot on. I shall put this one into the same category until evidence surfaces to the contrary.

Haven't been back to this thread in a while, but I'm glad to see that the question at least prompted a discussion that has become educational for many of us.

My "opponent" Pax is the AI since I mostly limit my gameplay to Ironman against the AI on the hard difficulty setting. I was just taking advantage of the ease of luring the AI out of it's heavily defended cities by showing myself to the north of Nanking in some force, which led to the AI abandoning the city with a stack of 1300 AV to come after me, presenting me an oppurtunity to slip a single corps into the city from just south of the river. After my first turn bombardment "recon" confirmed that the two units left in the city were HQs with an AV of 2, I shocked on the next turn with the results posted.

By the third turn the AI succeeded in getting a reinforcement in which raised its AV to 89 so even though I have now moved 800+ AV in I have no chance of success. I am however now contesting the city in sufficient strength that even the return of the 1300 AV that when goose chasing to the north won't succeed in kicking me out.

I took Hankow early on with a similar technique, by attacking the southernmost city in that string of cities to the south of Hankow (can't recall the name at the moment), luring Hnkows defenders to the south and moving 3k AV (20th and 26th Armies) in from the woods NW of the city. I have kept both Armies there ever since and after resting there for 2+ months they are now over 5.2k AV.

It just seemd to me that the 2AV confirmed in the hex, with no combat squads present, was inflated a bit outrageously.