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Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

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Originally Posted by MechR

Technically Acnologia was only introduced later, when Zeref spoke its name while waking up. You could actually just write it out of the arc.

Zeref mentioned that it was Hades actions that summoned Acnologia. Technically, we don't know what actually brought Acnologia to the island, but it went after the island instead of GH. Until we know what drives it, it would be hard to change what it does. We don't know what what Mashima has planned

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It's like you didn't read chapter 314 at all, or read a different version from the rest of us Did you not see Kagura straight-up outmuscle Erza in a sword clash, destroy her defensive armor, outduel her speed armor, and generally crush her at her own game on national TV without drawing steel?

Oh, I did, but how much of that was Erza just learning how Kagura fights? Natsu and Gadjeel did the same thing with Sting and Rogue. Once he got beat around and learned how they fought, he was able to take both of them down with ease.

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Lisanna should've stayed dead and buried. There was no reason to bring her back (other than shipping potential, which Mashima totally isn't milking), and some major reasons not to. And now I'm going to do something I thought I'd never do, and suggest you read One Piece.

Oh, I agree with Lisanna. So far, there was no point to bringing her back, other than the shipping angle, and if Mashima isn't going to go that route...

But afraid I'm not gonna read One Piece. Waaaay too many chapters to catch up on, and it didn't interest me much when I watched the anime episodes.

Oh, I did, but how much of that was Erza just learning how Kagura fights? Natsu and Gadjeel did the same thing with Sting and Rogue. Once he got beat around and learned how they fought, he was able to take both of them down with ease.

Even in Round 1, not many enemies can wreck Erza that badly. But again, my main complaint was how quickly Round 2 ended. I loved Erza one-shotting Aria since they hadn't fought before and she was still building her rep at the time, but her Kagura comeback really needed another chapter or so to deliver on the fight buildup, preferably with Erza pushing her limits to close the physical gap.

Re: Natsu soloing DF Sting and Rogue, that was sooo weird, and a big part of the post-timeskip powerlevel mess. Considering pre-powerup Natsu was struggling with Max, it would mean Second Origin was a frickin' huge powerup. That's unfortunate, since Second Origin was a really lame plot device that they basically got for free. The other problem is Erza got the same powerup, but Kagura still mopped the floor with her. (Unless Gray was right about Erza already having Second Origin, which would make her the only one who got double-screwed by the double-timeskip... But that's not a confirmed thing.)

Even in Round 1, not many enemies can wreck Erza that badly. But again, my main complaint was how quickly Round 2 ended. I loved Erza one-shotting Aria since they hadn't fought before and she was still building her rep at the time, but her Kagura comeback really needed another chapter or so to deliver on the fight buildup, preferably with Erza pushing her limits to close the physical gap.

Re: Natsu soloing DF Sting and Rogue, that was sooo weird, and a big part of the post-timeskip powerlevel mess. Considering pre-powerup Natsu was struggling with Max, it would mean Second Origin was a frickin' huge powerup. That's unfortunate, since Second Origin was a really lame plot device that they basically got for free. The other problem is Erza got the same powerup, but Kagura still mopped the floor with her. (Unless Gray was right about Erza already having Second Origin, which would make her the only one who got double-screwed by the double-timeskip... But that's not a confirmed thing.)

The Second Origin thing was really poorly done, it's essentially an excuse to make up for an unintentional practical joke (Virgo taking the crew to the Celestial World). I think it would've been a lot better if they did some really unconventional training to justify their power increase.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

Then again, people have complained about standard shonen trappings. Training and getting much, much stronger is very shonen. Mashima made us all think that's what he was going to do, and then totally subverted it with an instant power-up.

Even in Round 1, not many enemies can wreck Erza that badly. But again, my main complaint was how quickly Round 2 ended. I loved Erza one-shotting Aria since they hadn't fought before and she was still building her rep at the time, but her Kagura comeback really needed another chapter or so to deliver on the fight buildup, preferably with Erza pushing her limits to close the physical gap.

Round 1 was when Kagura and Erza were fighting before Minerva showed up. They were dead even. Round 2 started with Kagura pissed at Erza for calling Millianna a friend while sheltering Jellal. As such she stomped Erza, with Erza likely not being helped by worrying about Millianna, wondering what was up with Kagura and Jellal, and dividing her power between defense and offense. Erza clearing her mind, and switching to offense only was Round 3.

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Re: Natsu soloing DF Sting and Rogue, that was sooo weird, and a big part of the post-timeskip powerlevel mess. Considering pre-powerup Natsu was struggling with Max, it would mean Second Origin was a frickin' huge powerup. That's unfortunate, since Second Origin was a really lame plot device that they basically got for free. The other problem is Erza got the same powerup, but Kagura still mopped the floor with her. (Unless Gray was right about Erza already having Second Origin, which would make her the only one who got double-screwed by the double-timeskip... But that's not a confirmed thing.)

Erza getting the power up but being even with Kagura isn't really a problem. The easy answer is that Kagura was simply that much more powerful than Sting and Rogue.

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Originally Posted by mtgowns

The Second Origin thing was really poorly done, it's essentially an excuse to make up for an unintentional practical joke (Virgo taking the crew to the Celestial World). I think it would've been a lot better if they did some really unconventional training to justify their power increase.

If they hadn't gotten Second Origin, they wouldn't have gotten some unconventional training. Mashima would have just avoided the time in the Celestial Spirit world being that long, and they just would have gotten three months of the boring conventional training we saw them starting on.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo

Then again, people have complained about standard shonen trappings. Training and getting much, much stronger is very shonen. Mashima made us all think that's what he was going to do, and then totally subverted it with an instant power-up.

Yeah, that's the funny thing about Second Origin. All it really does is replaced a training montage ending with the words "three months later" with a different but equal power up that lets Mashima poke some fun at Dragonball's Room of Space and Time (aka Hyperbolic Time Chamber) in the process of setting up the need for Second Origin. Second Origin also pretty much explains why some Wizards are far more powerful than others at the same age - through circumstance or genetics, they've already awakened the additional container. Yet despite replacing one boring means of power up, with an equal one that at least explained why some Wizards were powerhouses at a young age, people complain incessantly about it because it wasn't "training".

Putting aside whether it's parallel to cheating/doping, it's still lame that the cast's single largest powerup to date came as a freebie out of nowhere. It devalues the natural growth from all the life-or-death battles they'd been in up till then.

^ Maybe we could've had a small arc to address the "training" part. Dunno, some adventure where they find some OP dudes but through the power of nakama they break through (not serious) (maybe).

I dunno, maybe something more interesting. I don't get worked up over it but I think the whole training part could've been made into something far better.

Not likely. Training in Fairy Tail is basically at the same place that training in Dragon Ball was around the time of the Cell Saga.

More specifically what people likely are thinking of when they say they wanted "training" is training like Naruto and Hunter x Hunter get. The "Here's a basic ability of your power that you really should have already known if it weren't for circumstances/plot. Use it to develop a new technique for your skill set." The problem is that's training for callow youths. For characters that started the series at the bottom, with essentially no power, no skill set, and are working their way up.

That doesn't work in a case like Cell Saga DBZ. Goku already had an essentially full skill set. He didn't need to master a bunch of new special attacks, he needed to increase his base power.

The same largely holds true for Fairy Tail. Natsu and Gajeel already have a essentially complete skill set of Dragon Slayer techniques. Gray is proficient with his chosen style of Ice Make. Erza proficient with her armors. Etc, and so forth. There are a few exceptions, but in general they all already possess an essentially complete skill set. Which means the boring, magical equivalent of strength/endurance training to increase their base power is what's required. For example, the training that Lucy was doing that amounted to meditation. For the ones like Lucy and Elfman that do need some expansions to their skill set, it's pretty much just a matter of study and practice. They don't need to be taught a new way of doing things, they just need to apply their existing skills. Again, something best left to a training montage.

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Originally Posted by MechR

Putting aside whether it's parallel to cheating/doping, it's still lame that the cast's single largest powerup to date came as a freebie out of nowhere. It devalues the natural growth from all the life-or-death battles they'd been in up till then.

While a far more reasonable complaint than complaining that they're cheating by getting a work around for a problem only introduced for the sake of comedy, it loses a lot of weight in light of the fact that "the natural growth from all the life-or-death battles" has never been a theme of the series. If it was, sitting down and training safely for three months straight to get all the power increase they would require would be just as equally devaluing to the theme.

While a far more reasonable complaint than complaining that they're cheating by getting a work around for a problem only introduced for the sake of comedy, it loses a lot of weight in light of the fact that "the natural growth from all the life-or-death battles" has never been a theme of the series. If it was, sitting down and training safely for three months straight to get all the power increase they would require would be just as equally devaluing to the theme.

"Equally" wouldn't be the word I'd use. Three months of due diligence >> overnight bailout, on the wholesomeness scale.

Looking at it from a story-telling standpoint and how one can alter the story in the manga... the absense of the 3 months of training takes away at least one episode that could have been a training filler episode or two. Not so much of them actually training but like mtgowns mentioned, one or two adventures to break the montonomy of the training:
A fight between Erza vs Natsu (a real fight like in the beginning of the series)
Gray and Juvia training with and against each other...
Wendy training against Lucy's Summons with Levy calling out different types of combinations for Lucy to try to guage effectiveness and to push their magic...

Mashima hasn't done a training chapter, let alone a training arc, since the start of this manga. He's probably not interested in doing one. Looks more like he'd rather write a comedy chapter instead. That's the only reason for second origin. He wanted to give them a power-up, didn't want a training arc, came up with second origin and wrote a comedy chapter to explain the 3 month time-lapse. It's just a one-time thing. It doesn't matter, doesn't make any difference in the end, and it's getting more attention than it warranted.

After so many iterations of hyperbolic time chambers, I'm totally fine with it. Mashima even joked indirectly about the hyperbolic time chamber at the end of that chapter.

You do realize that, if Natsu had lost any of his fights (say, against Zero or against Jellal), he'd be dead right now, right? Perhaps you'd like the genius of DragonBall Z, where the losers frequently died(good and bad guys)? Is that what you'd want to see FT turn into?

I just have to ask... why are you still here? You do know we are going to continue seeing what we've seen before, yes? If you dislike what FT has become, and dislike shonen so much, and know that FT will continue to be this way... why continue to stay and hate on it?

I mean, there are shows I dislike greatly for various reasons. And once I stop liking something, I tend to stop watching. Or at least, stop commenting in a forum occupied by people who still like it. I consider that to be a courtesy to other people, but that's just me.

Wrong, in Jellal case blast could be strong enough to blow him into the sea and make Jellal believe that Natsu died while he didn't.

Besides there were enough of other villains where Natsu could easily lose. Just because he is an MC, doesn't mean he is invincible. This arc is one of them where Natsu could lose without dying.

Never watched DBZ so duno what you are talking about.

Besides even a typical winning could be portrayed better like for example in Seirei No Mrobito.
MC won the fight but she suffered a serious injury that handicapped her. While here no matter what injury they get it is nothing. Makes you wonder why authors even bother creating them.
Balsa didn't one shot anyone while every fight in FT tends to end up with one shot even though they got their asses handed to them moments ago. LAME!

I could buy it once, twice but not every single time.

I watch it because I hope that it will get back on right path. Besides discussions are called that way for a reason. If it was all about fans, they should be called "Fangasm thread".
Discussions are meant to talk about both positives and negatives to explore both sides of each show and that's exactly what I'm doing.
Not my fault that lately FT is filled with negatives.

Besides even a typical winning could be portrayed better like for example in Seirei No Mrobito.
MC won the fight but she suffered a serious injury that handicapped her. While here no matter what injury they get it is nothing. Makes you wonder why authors even bother creating them.
Balsa didn't one shot anyone while every fight in FT tends to end up with one shot even though they got their asses handed to them moments ago. LAME!

I could buy it once, twice but not every single time.

Isn't that stretching it a little? I mean Seirei No Moribito and Fairy Tail, really?

Isn't that stretching it a little? I mean Seirei No Moribito and Fairy Tail, really?

Ironic that he should be complaining that Fairy Tail should be more like Seirei no Moribito which tries to be more realistic with it's fights. He's complaining about fights in Fairy Tail (particularly Erza's) ending with the enemy being 'one shot'. However, this is pretty realistic. An unblocked sword strike to the chest doesn't leave you with damaged clothing and maybe a scratch, it leaves you bleeding out on the ground with the fight having ended in your defeat.

So the more realistic version of "Erza puts her enemies down in one hit" would be "Erza puts her enemies down in one hit".

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

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Originally Posted by kitten320

Wrong, in Jellal case blast could be strong enough to blow him into the sea and make Jellal believe that Natsu died while he didn't.

Besides there were enough of other villains where Natsu could easily lose. Just because he is an MC, doesn't mean he is invincible. This arc is one of them where Natsu could lose without dying.

Never watched DBZ so duno what you are talking about.

Besides even a typical winning could be portrayed better like for example in Seirei No Mrobito.
MC won the fight but she suffered a serious injury that handicapped her. While here no matter what injury they get it is nothing. Makes you wonder why authors even bother creating them.
Balsa didn't one shot anyone while every fight in FT tends to end up with one shot even though they got their asses handed to them moments ago. LAME!

Let me get this straight... you want fights to be more realistic, but you somehow think that Natsu could realistically survive being blasted off the top of the tower and falling several stories into the water. Which would, at that point, treat his body as if it were cement, ie, break several bones in his body and cause massive internal injuries. And he's already been knocked off a high place once... he responded by shooting himself right back up with fire. So even if he survived your suggestion, he'd jump back into the fight and Jellal would have to deal with him again. It solves nothing.

You don't quite understand how real fights and injuries work, do you? In reality, when two people are sword fighting, it usually is over in one attack. They may clash blades a few times, but then someone manages a gut thrust, or cuts deeply into a limb which hampers someone enough that the fight is essentially over. Even street fights with people going hand-to-hand are usually over in a few moves. People get tired, take a powerful blow to the head or gut, or get a limb broken, and it's over.

Very very very few shows actually show realistic fights, because it's not entertaining. Why do you think Pro Wrestling is fake? Because people want to see entertainment, rather than actual competition. Boxing matches can last awhile, but that's because they heavily restrict what you can do, and give frequent breaks.

In short, I don't think you really want, or understand, what you say you want.

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I watch it because I hope that it will get back on right path. Besides discussions are called that way for a reason. If it was all about fans, they should be called "Fangasm thread".
Discussions are meant to talk about both positives and negatives to explore both sides of each show and that's exactly what I'm doing.
Not my fault that lately FT is filled with negatives.

There is a difference between being critical, and simply unleashing unrealistic hate on a series. See my title, as I have no problems being critical of this show, or any other. But your hate here is misplaced: Fairy Tail isn't a deep show, or one that pretends to follow realism. It's shonen. If you have problems with how this show is doing things, then you have a problem with shonen in general, and thus I would simply say that the genre is not for you.

Seriously, if the show has gotten so bad, that you hate it this much, then you really should move onto something else. Fairy Tail ain't gonna change, so you're in for more of the same. And you'll simply tick everyone off by being obsessively hate-filled with every post you make.

I understand how you feel. You perhaps thought FT was decent at one time and liked it, and now you don't, and thus you feel a little betrayed. You want everyone else to come around to your point of view and hate it as well, as that would justify your self beliefs. It's not going to happen. And even if it did, Fairy Tail would continue on, uncaring of what you or I or anyone else thinks. You'd have to convince a ton of people in Japan to stop reading it.

Oh, and you really should watch Dragonball Z. That has the kind of "realism" you are looking for. People die in that series.

Lastly, Seirei no Moribito is a decent series with a couple of good fights... but pays for it heavily in it's incredibly slow pacing. They blew their animation budget on their couple of fights, leaving little for everything else. It's also a much different genre than FT, appealing to a different demographic, so can't really be compared.

You guys only keep hearing what you want to hear to make yourself look better.

For starters, an unconscious Natsu in a water would never be able to jump back in a fight.
Edward Elric lost several fights like the one with Kimblee yet he still was alive.
Tournament is a perfect opportunity to make main cast lose without dying. And by main I don't mean Lucy who gets shortest end of the stick all the time.

Seirei No Morbito might be a different genre but there are lots of ways how you could use it's positives in a shounen.
By realistic take I did not mean one punch = dead.
If character got his leg crashed, it should be crashed all the way through and not just in one page when it was convenient for a shock factor and then fine in next page. Otherwise it is a total waste of time.

Also whole lava thing with Arcadius... In reality they wouldn't be able to even stand near it without burning to ashes but I stopped carrying about that detail long ago. However, surviving without any injuries a lava bath is way too much! What's the point of calling it a lava then and get scared?!

Krono
Sadly this so called realistic take only works for main gang.
Erza got crap kicked out of her, by that logic she should never be able to stand up ever again. She took hundreds of powerful hits and yet she is fine.
However, it took Erza only one simple blow to take her enemy down. It was nothing special, enemy did better than that yet enemy is unconscious while Erza is jumping around happy like nothing happened.

It is very one sided standard. How could anyone in right mind enjoy it after 100th time is beyond me.

Won't argue, shounen gradually turns into the most pathetic genre I have ever seen. It clearly is meant for children who don't care about logic. Most of them don't even know what logic is anyway.

The only reason why I still watch shounen from time to time, is to find gems like FMA.

I don't know how well things will go later but right now Magi has a potential to be great.

omg, how a thread about erza turning in thread about manga/anime gender????, about natsu? and about dbz? traning?(lol it's ok if erza still in the middle of the chat but when she vanish completely from the topic then the things start to look really wrong.

wtf kitten320 you can stop to being a hater and complainer? along this forum??? or you want another round of deleted posts????, if you dont like FT then "dont read/watch" it's simple this is not that "Seirei No Mrobito" who you want, stop of compare, this is the worst argument for haters when their start to compare two completely differents works(even different demograph like shounen and seinen), if fairy tail is so boring so bad for you go watch magi it's simple dont waste your time watching something just for the sake of hate, and dont make all this off topic(end even when you are on topic is just for hate).

it seems that some people do not know the difference between hate, dislike, complain and criticize...
criticize: when in "your personnal opnion you dislked something and maybe for yourself only(and maybe others peoples with the same opnion) can be better in other way(not forcing your personnal opnion in the others peoples) showing really valid and good arguments(with some little exceptions of just hate/complain)

dislike: when you simple dont like something, this dont means "hate"(dislike and hate are two completely different things) however you can also "hate"

hate: when you simple hate something and start to "bash and complain about that thing trying to force your personal opinion (hate) above the opnion of other, and using excuses to make comparations with others things just to find more reasons to hate.

complain: bash and complain about what you hate and dont give any positive argument about that thing, just looking at his faults (and in severe cases even creating new defects), without ever pointing the positives and making comparations even completely without logic.

about the lava thing, i think was explainned who he survived because he was wearing a "jade necklace" who the princess give to him who have some sort of jade dragon power who protected him from the lava and also the horologium who caught him when that protection started to fail, this is a manga/anime/cartoon/magazine logic if you dont like, dont complain.

He's complaining about fights in Fairy Tail (particularly Erza's) ending with the enemy being 'one shot'. However, this is pretty realistic. An unblocked sword strike to the chest doesn't leave you with damaged clothing and maybe a scratch, it leaves you bleeding out on the ground with the fight having ended in your defeat.

So the more realistic version of "Erza puts her enemies down in one hit" would be "Erza puts her enemies down in one hit".

Uh, if it was realistic then Ikaruga should have defeated Erza. I say, Ikaruga landed more strikes on Erza than otherwise. But then Erza just had to strike back with just one slash and down goes her enemy. Pretty unfair, don't you think? Same with Kagura. She landed more strikes but then who's the winner?

And before you say anything, I had no problem with her fight with Azuma since that fight was not as one-sided as her fight with Ikaruga or Kagura (eh, confusing names) with both contenders drawing equal (although, censored ) blood from start to finish.

Last edited by Pinwheel10; 2013-02-17 at 08:20.
Reason: Just had to add that italicized part

If you didn't notice, you guys are the ones forcing your opinion down my throat just because I don't agree. My comments were originally Erza based only yet you people started to prove your point by bringing whole cast into a discussion which simply shows that you are the ones losing the argument since you can't stay on topic.

I simply replied to questions I was asked, I don't see my fault here.
Besides it is clearly useless talking to you people, you see only what you want to see and keep twisting my words and missing the point.

Different genres or not, you can easily use positives of each one in another.

Also telling me to drop something that I started to watch when only 25 episodes were out is harsh. I also was one of the people who insisted on bringing this show onto the main thread. It really is not that easy to drop something with what you've been so closely connected for years.
It is just sad to see it fall apart like that after having so much potential

I don't remember necklace part but if that's the case, I take my comment back. It is enough of an excuse, at least it means that others would not survive it.

Pinwheel10
That's exactly my main issue! No matter who(good guy), though for Erza it became very common, and how much damage they get, they are always fine. However, for them it just takes one strike to take enemy down even though they received more beating till now.

I won't even bother saying word "sense" since you people keep twisting its meaning so I'll simply say "ONE SIDED" and "UNFAIR". It makes villains look pathetic like if their punch = baby slap.

In Kagura's case it was so much worse because she unshielded "powerful" sword of hers and yet got shit kicked out even though she did so well with shielded one.
Why empethise on her sword when it was nothing special?

Anyway I'm stopping here, it is clear that we won't get anywhere. We keep seeing things differently.

...the 'one strike' is a cultural thing for the Japanese. No matter how much one dislikes it popping out in a manga, it won't go away, even if one thinks that the situation is not good for it.

This isn't the first time that Erza's one-shotted someone who was strong (Aria) while she was pretty much 'on the ropes' as well, having taken a head-on shot from Jupiter back then too. She's taken down Midnight easily and nearly all of her opponents have been taken out within a few moves. Azuma's pretty much the only guy who's made Erza go the distance and he would have won if he didn't use Fairy Tail's own magic against her.

Erza is over-powered, so is Laxus and Gildartz. Those three are nearly impossible to beat conventionally. That's the entire point. Laxus lost to Natsu and Gajeel because he lost his cool. Take Laxus mentally out of the fight and you can win it - if Laxus keeps his head together, you're done for.