Some people will disagree with your assessment due to the fact that for many veterans and people that remembers the Vietnam war is not comparison.

To tell you the true when it comes to a not win situation Iraq and Vietnam are about the same, the only tragedy is that Vietnam caused more death that
Iraq right now if you count the troops death, but when it comes to civilians death I guess is getting there taking in consideration that the death
count on civilians is none existent.

If i see things as they stand now , America will be fighting for Iraqi freedom for some years to come. How long are you prepared to stay there and
loose men and do you think the cost of the war is worth it?

Marg, your opinion, as always, is valued.
"Sacrifice" requires more than what some here think and say.
"Sacrifice" to me means knowing that 2 good military friends of mine have died there; that I have lost a nephew there, and that I have another
nephew currently serving his second tour there.

Yes, military families will continue to "sacrifice," God forbid that, correct?
My opinion, as known as yours, has not changed, however, being it still stands in stark contrast and contrary to yours.

The thing is though Americans who thought this fight would be over quickly have found that its not going to be that way. You are going to spend more
money defending Iraq than you spend on your own people who are loosing their freedom due to the patriot act. Looks to me Americans have lost a lot of
things due to George Bush and his cronies but im English and live in a land of freedom.

Yes, perhaps Bulldog, your opinion is among many.
I will respect and value your opinion, being that you are rightly allowed to express one, though I myself may not fully agree with it.

Freedom is a beautiful thing, as is the freedom of opinion. Did you know that in many placess of the "free" world, that the freedom of expression or
the freedom of speech and opinion are not allowed or are severely restricted? But that has nothing to do with the Patriot Act now does it?

Originally posted by Seekerof
Yes, perhaps Bulldog, your opinion is among many.
I will respect and value your opinion, being that you are rightly allowed to express one, though I myself may not fully agree with it.

Freedom is a beautiful thing, as is the freedom of opinion. Did you know that in many placess of the "free" world, that the freedom of expression or
the freedom of speech and opinion are not allowed or are severely restricted? But that has nothing to do with the Patriot Act now does it?

In Vietnam we fighting an enemy that had a well-defined structure and political ideology that was being supported by other superpowers and was able
garner local political support from a significant portion of the population. There was a draft and tens of thousands of war dead. None of these
situations exist in Iraq, we're fighting a loose confederation of terrorists attacking their own citizens, they're not popular. Plus, although every
loss of life is tragic, at something between 1,700 to 1,800, the number of dead has been relatively light historically.

Any comparison of Iraq to Vietnam is absolutely asinine. People who loathe American foreign role in the Middle East will find any false excuse to
magnify on to justify a comparison on the merest hint of troubles.

We're talking about 90% of Iraq in stable conditions whereas 10% are mostly limited troubles causing by foreign insurgents trying to reverse the
course of democracy in Iraq with violent means and mass killings.

Ayup, Iraq and Vietnam are in no way comparable. Take another reference list at the standard (Clauswitz and then widely used) principles of war. We
have violated none, except PERHAPS mass. What we need to do is get our boys at the borders and send the Iraqi forces to maintain the centers with
American err Allied support and American airpower at their calll... same thing we should have done in Vietnam... however I believe, despite popular
opinion, this is not an adequate comparison.

Cut off the borders and the resistence ends. The original poster was correct in his broad assumption, however broad, if he even thought of this
(media has feed us this quote for years.)

So, take the Americans to the borders, and disperse the other allies along with the Iraqi forces to quell the rebellion... Just like we should have
done in 'nam... (they will be equipped with American Naval and Air Force air support if needed)... geez, Occam's Razor anyone?

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
If i see things as they stand now , America will be fighting for Iraqi freedom for some years to come. How long are you prepared to stay there and
loose men and do you think the cost of the war is worth it?

Yes, it is worth it, to protect American and the world. America is willing to fight and die for freedom, thats why we bailed you out in WWII!

U.S. Soldiers killed in Vietnam = 58, 148.

U.S. Soldiers killed in Iraq = 1,700.

Post Script: The Patriot Act has in no way limited freedoms in Amercia! I live here and enjoy 100% freedom!

War didn't end Slavery, it still exists. In AMerica it didn't end it, the Emancipation Proclamation(sp?) didn't do anything either. It freed slaves
in the CSA, which didn't follow USA laws. Like banning the metric system in Canada, won't do anything unless America attacks and takes it over.

Communism still exists and is going strong. More commies then democracies..... 1.2 billion alone in CHina, not to mention NK, Vietnam, and Cuba. So
war didn't end it.

Facism still exists, war didn't end it. We stopped Germany and Japan from taking over the world, but facism still exists.

And again, the number 4 supporter of the GOP is the Nazis! Neo Nazis, but still Nazis! So Nazism wasn't stopped by war, still exists.

So DJ, if I had a avatar that said "All republicans are smart", I bet you would have a problem with that bold face lie, so your avatar with a bold
face lie upsets me. War has solved one thing, war.

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
If i see things as they stand now , America will be fighting for Iraqi freedom for some years to come. How long are you prepared to stay there and
loose men and do you think the cost of the war is worth it?

Yes, it is worth it, to protect American and the world. America is willing to fight and die for freedom, thats why we bailed you out in WWII!

U.S. Soldiers killed in Vietnam = 58, 148.

U.S. Soldiers killed in Iraq = 1,700.

Post Script: The Patriot Act has in no way limited freedoms in Amercia! I live here and enjoy 100% freedom!

[edit on 25-6-2005 by Boatphone]

I think you'd better take a good look at the Patriot Act and compare it to the Bill of Rights. A warrant is no longer needed to haul your butt down
to the police station--violation of the Fourth Amendment. What right to a speedy trial? Ask the prisoners in Gitmo--have they had a speedy trial?

I am not a liberal. I'm also not a neo-con. I am a Constitutionalist-in-training.

At any rate, do a Google search, download the Patriot Act, compare it to the Constitution, then get back to me.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
War didn't end Slavery, it still exists. In AMerica it didn't end it, the Emancipation Proclamation(sp?) didn't do anything either. It freed slaves
in the CSA, which didn't follow USA laws.

Yes, war did end slavery. You are just flat wrong. It was called the civil war.

Like banning the metric system in Canada, won't do anything unless America attacks and takes it over.

So you admit that war could solve that problem??

Communism still exists and is going strong. More commies then democracies..... 1.2 billion alone in CHina, not to mention NK, Vietnam, and
Cuba. So war didn't end it.

Communism still going strong?

North Korea, Vietnam and Cuba are all doing great, yup really going well there...

China is not a real communist nation.

Facism still exists, war didn't end it. We stopped Germany and Japan from taking over the world, but facism still exists.

Just because something still exists does not mean war cannot solve it!

And again, the number 4 supporter of the GOP is the Nazis! Neo Nazis, but still Nazis! So Nazism wasn't stopped by war, still exists.

The only comparison I see between Iraq and Vietnam is the American people's support for each war. We always talk about our government and military
"learning the lessons of Vietnam." What we often overlook is the fact that the American people haven't learned the lessons of Vietnam themselves.
The lack of support and the protests against our soldiers and their mission in Vietnam is one of the major causes of our ultimate defeat there. The
propaganda that the people here at home gave the Vietcong was worth hundreds of billions of dollars, and they got it for nothing. The scars that the
protestors left on our soldiers who returned home, in many cases, have still never healed. Coming home from fighting for your country only to be spit
on and called a "baby killer" is one of the most horrible things anyone can do to a man in uniform fighting for their rights.

We, as American citizens, must remember what our actions over here do to the troops fighting abroad. We cannot turn on an effort after 1,800
casualties and 2 years of battle. What we do and say here directly effects our men and women in uniform. I'm thankful this country didn't have the
same mentality in the beginning of World War II, which saw defeat after defeat in the Pacific as well as Europe. If the American mentality was the
same then as it is now, we would have asked for a truce with Japan and Nazi Germany after 3 weeks of battle. Let's not give our enemies anymore
propaganda or ammunition than they already have by being a divided country. Let's support our troops 110% BEFORE this really turns into another
Vietnam.

Now, in response to what Bulldog (an Englishman, nontheless) said about Americans losing their rights, I have to disagree. As an American citizen I
have not lost a single right since 9/11. I have not felt a single negative effect of the Patriot Act other than the comforts of knowing that my
government has kept terrorists from committing major attacks here at home for well over 3 years. I challenge any American citizen on here to state
how they have been directly effected by the Patriot Act and how they have suffered as a result of it. I sincerely doubt that anyone on here has paid
such a price that it would void the righteousness of the legislation itself. Don't believe all of the liberal fear-mongering. Bush is not Satan and
the Patriot Act hasn't caused me to burn my library card or not purchase my countless bin Laden and al Qaida-themed books.

No, this is worse than the Vietnam war. At least the North Vietnamese pretty much fought our boys out in the field. They did'nt ram airliners into
sky-scrappers full of civilians and I hope we start trading with Vietnam again.

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