Interesting, I am disappointed in the paint scheme on Doyle's engine (I would rather it be Daylight!), but it's just paint. What upsets me are those god-awful number boards plastered on that beautiful nose! (Funny, they don't look god-awful on an F unit!) I know, to be historically correct as an NKP loco, they're needed, but gee. . . .. However, it IS his locomotive, AND it will actually RUN very soon! So, I'm just happy that a PA still exists!When does a group go after the one in Argentina?:)

Not only NKP used the big number board boxes on PA's. Check out the MP, SR, and later SP units.

BTW, the DELTA QUEEN isn't as-built, either, and if the plans go through, she will get new boilers.

David, Oye! I guess we should count our blessings!Lincoln, I am well aware of most of the changes planned for the Delta Queen, and I wish the "new hull" had been done more carefully too. The Delta Queen is a far cry from "as launched" but she still is our Legendary Delta Queen, the LAST of the overnight steamboats. Good example too, as, like the PA, "there ain't no more!" Modifications have been done to keep her running, but she still runs by steam, and is lucky enough to have her original engines--well, actually on 1/2, the other half is from the Delta King, as is her wheel shaft. And yes, it appears the 1919 boilers will be replaced, if she is allowed to run again.BUT, Somehow you missed that my "complaint" was just a "gee whiz" and that I am VERY happy that Doyle managed to pull off the repatriation and has done a wonderful job basically re-creating a PA locomotive. When I suggested the PA-5 designation, it was somewhat tongue-in-cheek to satisfy the "But it's not the SAME engine!" group. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the PA-4 designation was post-Alco too.I am thankful for the thoughtful discussion we have been having regarding preservation vs re-creation and maintaining authenticity. Their are many sides to the issues, and looking at them all is good for the preservation community. Museums are left with a daunting task, especially in the current economic and political times nowadays.Randy has, as usual, provided a very concise and well-thought-out posting about this conversation. Thanks!BTW, I don't see "anger" expressed here, just differing opinions and a genuine concern that best practices be followed. (Best Practices, however, is an ongoing evolution!)Just so it's clear, I would LOVE to see a PA Warbonnet unit! This in spite of growing up SP!Now what about the Argentine PA????Happy New year everyone!

_________________Steamcerely,David DeweyCelebrating the return to the American Rivers of the last overnight steamboat, Delta Queen!

Assuming this locomotive gets “restored” with whatever Alco prime mover, and electrical system, it will be a PA… it won’t have a great deal of integrity, but it will look like a PA, sound like a PA, and will pull railroad cars like a PA… It will have a diesel engine driving a generator which will generate electricity to be used to power axle hung traction motors… It might be eligible for the National register or even be a National Landmark, if we look at the precedent of the V&T McKeen Car an NSRM…

First of all, there is a lot of weirdness around conveying opinions on this site and having them properly understood. I thought I was super clear that I approve of what the folks in Texas are doing. I just think we need to be more clear and careful about approaches/treatments/language.

I hear what you're saying about V&T 22, and while I am not an expert on this topic, it doesn't make sense to me. It seems that once you've eliminated EVERYTHING except most of the carbody, then the object's integrity has been lost. I have no problem with the work done on the V&T McKeen car, and while it probably provides a very close approximation of the historic experience the car would have provided, it seems to me to have passed the tipping point beyond having sufficient integrity when the car was turned into a building.

There are many examples of buildings that have been constructed behind the restored facades of old buildings that were otherwise demolished. The new construction might use different materials, different floor plans, different uses, etc. They may look the same on the outside, they still serve as buildings, and they perform in more or less the same manner, but these can't be eligible for listing, correct?

So where is the tipping point? If the Western Pacific Railroad Museum took the surviving tender of a WP GS-64 and "restored" it by building a new engine to go with it, wouldn't that certainly be a Reconstruction, or Replica? Even if they copied every detail precisely by using SP GS-6 4460 in Saint Louis as a prototype? Better yet, what if they took the engine portion of SP 4460, added elephant ears, and mated it to a WP tender? Could that then be a "restored" WP GS-64?

Does all that matter is the stuff that is easily visible on the outside?

Here's a link to a discussion about the Brazilian PA from early last year. I doubt anything has changed since then. Of the three exported there, as of last year there was one complete carbody on trucks (similar to what Doyle started with) and one cab attached to a building of some sort. The third PA was apparently scrapped.

I agree, these conversations are difficult… much meaning is lost when discussing these issues via computer instead of face to face… (Randy and I live nearby and are friends and get to discuss much of this face to face occasionally)

I think the key to this is that there is no “official” (hard) line which defines what is a restoration or a reconstruction or ??… Instead, it is defined by a combination of process and intent, with a bit of politics included. So much of preservation is colored by politics… a community advocates to preserve a buiding so the façade is preserved while the building is lost and a new building built behind… but the local community is placated and all is good and it now is preservation of at least the façade…

The McKeen car (before restoration) had no integrity as an railroad car, but some as an artifact… they took what they had and replicated missing features and components… the process was well researched and documented, and of good scholarship and was accepted by the museum and preservation communities… so it is (officially) defined as a preservation rather than a replication project… and is now a National Treasure… It seems that the PA project would have more integaty, since it uses the same power system design as original if not the original components…

Funny enough formerly living in Sao Paulo I can tell you that particular PA is by no means in any sort of intact shape whatsoever. The guys who originally started the project to restore it "abandoned" it when they ran out of funding around 2003. The intent was to have it restored cosmetically to its original appearance as Companhia Paulista PA-2 #600 at the Jundiai shops but unfortunately the group itself got carried away with other projects notably the restoration on their V8 electric locomotive. #600 as of last time I saw it was stripped of its prime mover,traction motors, generator, cab controls all but its radiator making it entirely a shell. However the 600 is still owned by the CP museum and is actively being cared for by museum volunteers. In a word to the HVRM if you guys are really serious about restoring it, note it will be a very tough and long restoration. Do not expect it to be something quick and tidy it'll be something of a great challenge. If you need any additional info on the unit or translating services I'd be happy to help out otherwise good luck,

There is a 'cult' that surrounds these locomotives that affords them far more gravitas (or perhaps the wrong gravitas) than they actually deserve. Fact is- the design was a bust, in all manner of respects. It was a bust in terms of sales volume, compared to the EMD product. I have been told (by someone who had first hand experience with the design) that the warranty costs wiped out the possibility of Alco ever making a profit on the sales of said locomotive.

Perhaps most significantly, I have been told by the person I mentioned previously ( a now-deceased GE employee) that the issues that surrounded this locomotive were the proximate cause of GE deciding to discontinue the Alco-GE 'joint marketing arrangement...and eventually develop into a substantial competitor.

Fact of the matter is is that GE was extremely concerned about damage to their reputation...and was forced to act based upon the FACT that Alco was viewed as impotent by the customer base. As I said before, the capital upgrade program performed on the ATSF and SP PA fleets was designed and marketed by GE. This program was the first of its kind within the industry-performed within the customers' own shops by railroad personnel-with substantial tech support by GE. The ATSF and SP fleets represented one third of the production run...and were roughly ten yrs old when they saw this substantial investment.

The net result of this investment was that those fleets experienced a good (approx. 20 yr) service life. In comparison, some other operators (SR, P&LE, NYC), they were discarded as soon as possible. I believe they lasted a whole 8 yrs. on SR...and only a bit longer on the P&LE. Apparently, many railroads decided that the best use of a PA was as a trade-in on a newer Alco (or GE) locomotive.

Quote:

I am in academics, and the main general issue I work with is called "forms of explanation', and we use a term "inessentially different" to assess explanations. To use an extreme example, it is inesentially different that you were wearing a white shirt rather than a blue one in trying to explain a car crash you were in, but is essentially different that you were going 100 miles an hour rather than the speed limit. In the same way I believe that #59, rebuilt with a 251, capable of moving and pulling a train as it did when delivered, painted as it was new or in service on the Santa Fe, and sounding like an ALco PA is less essentially different from a PA than is an unmovable frame and carbody. Go for it.

All locomotives that are supplied new by the OEM are supported by a package of technical documentation, i.e., specs, maintenance manuals, parts books, etc. that are familiar to both OEM and railroad personnel. These documents are what define the locomotive-not subjective observations. That said, if personnel who were familiar with the locomotives during their service life attempted to utilize that documentation in the maintenance of the 59 as currently proposed, they would find the current version tobe be completely unfamiliar to them. Items such as transistorized controls and main alternators postdate any known permutation of the design. Accordingly, I believe the contention of the previous paragraph turns to dust. Not only that, the performance characteristics of the 16-244 differ significantly from the 12-251 E...including the obvious examples of smoke production and 'sounds.'

Dave

FWIW, I have enjoyed both 'PWC's' and Mr. Ruiz' scholarly take on the subject.

_________________"Two wrongs don't make a right, but they make a good excuse."-Thomas Szasz

In a word to the HVRM if you guys are really serious about restoring it, note it will be a very tough and long restoration.

Cameron

Well, I guess I'm a bit confused as to where HVRM comes in to this discussion. Did I miss something? I don't think we have anyone interested in restoring a PA at our museum, but if so, I guess I would be in favor of it.

Someone explained to me once, that the bells were put in to this "notch" because their underbody location kept plugging up with snow during bad weather thus becoming inoperable. The Nickel Plate's "customized" notch solved that problem.

In a word to the HVRM if you guys are really serious about restoring it, note it will be a very tough and long restoration.

Cameron

Well, I guess I'm a bit confused as to where HVRM comes in to this discussion. Did I miss something? I don't think we have anyone interested in restoring a PA at our museum, but if so, I guess I would be in favor of it.

Hi Les about a year ago you said quote "HVRM has started a fund to bring the PA-2 back to Indiana where it will be cosmetically restored as Erie #864 in its original black and yellow paint scheme. There are NO plans to restore the unit to service so the trucks on the unit will just be re-gauged to 4' 8-1/2". Donations thus far have been slow coming in, but please feel free to forward your check to the museum at P.O. Box 75 in North Judson, Indiana 46366. If the plans to bring the PA-2 back to the U.S.A. fall through, the museum will put any monies collected toward other worthwhile restoration projects at the museum"

When you said this were you being serious or was this all part of some joke because according to some of the museum staff they have no idea what you were on about.If this is indeed true and you just forgot somehow please feel free anytime to contact me for translating services or historical info on the unit

In a word to the HVRM if you guys are really serious about restoring it, note it will be a very tough and long restoration.

Cameron

Well, I guess I'm a bit confused as to where HVRM comes in to this discussion. Did I miss something? I don't think we have anyone interested in restoring a PA at our museum, but if so, I guess I would be in favor of it.

Hi Les about a year ago you said quote "HVRM has started a fund to bring the PA-2 back to Indiana where it will be cosmetically restored as Erie #864 in its original black and yellow paint scheme. There are NO plans to restore the unit to service so the trucks on the unit will just be re-gauged to 4' 8-1/2". Donations thus far have been slow coming in, but please feel free to forward your check to the museum at P.O. Box 75 in North Judson, Indiana 46366. If the plans to bring the PA-2 back to the U.S.A. fall through, the museum will put any monies collected toward other worthwhile restoration projects at the museum"

When you said this were you being serious or was this all part of some joke because according to some of the museum staff they have no idea what you were on about.If this is indeed true and you just forgot somehow please feel free anytime to contact me for translating services or historical info on the unit

Cameron

Well Cameron, you got me! Yes, I submitted this comment, although I had forgotten that I did. And yes, I was being facetious. It's date of submittal was April 01, 2014. Obviously, it was not a good idea. I guess I figured because of the date, that folks would realize I wasn't really being serious, but obviously you did, and perhaps other did too. Stupid on my part! I have to apologize to you, and to anyone else that took me seriously. Even though the idea of bringing the PA-2 back to the U.S.A. might be a good one, it was just dumb that I made the suggestion and used the museum as a part of the deception. Another good reason to keep this kind of thing off of RyPN.

Hi Les about a year ago you said quote "HVRM has started a fund to bring the PA-2 back to Indiana where it will be cosmetically restored as Erie #864 in its original black and yellow paint scheme. There are NO plans to restore the unit to service so the trucks on the unit will just be re-gauged to 4' 8-1/2". Donations thus far have been slow coming in, but please feel free to forward your check to the museum at P.O. Box 75 in North Judson, Indiana 46366. If the plans to bring the PA-2 back to the U.S.A. fall through, the museum will put any monies collected toward other worthwhile restoration projects at the museum"

When you said this were you being serious or was this all part of some joke because according to some of the museum staff they have no idea what you were on about.If this is indeed true and you just forgot somehow please feel free anytime to contact me for translating services or historical info on the unit.

I have bee following this tread with some interest (as all of you) in this project. I have the following to offer as opinion to this:

-#59 stopped being a true PA when it was rebuilt with a 251 block and updated electricals by MK for D&H back in the '70s. They effectively created a "new" model just like RS3m, GP10s. Such creations are just as worthy of preservation, because they show in real life what railways did to keep locomotives in service rather than replace them with something new - which is bring them through back shops and rebuilt them at a lesser cost than a new one, using more reliable components. Just like railways did back in the steam days.

-Because the components to make it "as built" just don't exist, this museum is effectively doing (just like Mr. McCormark did) -returning it as close as possible to its "as retired from the D&H" state, using an HR-412 (or an M420W)'s guts and ERIE-built FM trucks. This colossal job will bring back two hulks to live status, which otherwise would remain just that - empty hulks.

Age of Steam should be commanded for doing what we all want. Bring a PA back to life!

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