tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1388096375392171203..comments2014-04-18T09:47:55.100-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: The Articles of Dragon: "Demi-Humans Get a Lift"James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56267456348533199582012-04-25T16:16:55.682-04:002012-04-25T16:16:55.682-04:00Note that Gygax doesn’t say that the level limits ...Note that Gygax doesn’t say that the level limits are there to discourage PC demi-humans. I don’t recall him ever referring to this as a PC-vs-PC balance issue. Rather, his argument is about the logical consequence on the game world if demi-humans aren’t level limited.<br /><br />Indeed, some of the alternatives designed to balance demi-human PCs against human PCs or to simply discourage demi-human PCs don’t address the issue Gygax was concerned about. Even if you replaced the level caps for elves with requiring double the XP per level, with their long AD&amp;D lifespans, the argument can still be made that they’d dominate humans.<br /><br />The problem I have with that Gygax’s reasoning here is that the rules that govern PCs aren’t meant to represent the a complete set of laws that govern the entire game world. Just as monsters follow different rules than the PCs. If the DM wants the world to be human-centric, he simply declares it so. It’ll take a lot of elfin PCs to change it, and the DM will get burnt out before accepting that many players into his campaign. ^_^Robert Fishernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10906562812789771122012-04-25T16:16:45.944-04:002012-04-25T16:16:45.944-04:00Note that Gygax doesn’t say that the level limits ...Note that Gygax doesn’t say that the level limits are there to discourage PC demi-humans. I don’t recall him ever referring to this as a PC-vs-PC balance issue. Rather, his argument is about the logical consequence on the game world if demi-humans aren’t level limited.<br /><br />Indeed, some of the alternatives designed to balance demi-human PCs against human PCs or to simply discourage demi-human PCs don’t address the issue Gygax was concerned about. Even if you replaced the level caps for elves with requiring double the XP per level, with their long AD&amp;D lifespans, the argument can still be made that they’d dominate humans.<br /><br />The problem I have with that Gygax’s reasoning here is that the rules that govern PCs aren’t meant to represent the a complete set of laws that govern the entire game world. Just as monsters follow different rules than the PCs. If the DM wants the world to be human-centric, he simply declares it so. It’ll take a lot of elfin PCs to change it, and the DM will get burnt out before accepting that many players into his campaign. ^_^Robert Fishernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49485418811492831532012-03-29T18:21:25.758-04:002012-03-29T18:21:25.758-04:00Because that&#39;s a strawman arguement. Keith Da...Because that&#39;s a strawman arguement. Keith Davies did a fantastic break down of why that argument doesn&#39;t hold water...with MATH! <br />http://www.kjd-imc.org/2012/02/11/longevity-and-level-limits/<br /><br />Basically, the statistical chance of anything surviving that long are about nill. Unless you have a home ruleset that somehow allows for it of course (I&#39;m looking at you Arduin!).micahblackburnhttp://micahblackburn.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83219040576138465672012-03-28T21:53:24.474-04:002012-03-28T21:53:24.474-04:00I preferred simply putting a cap on the number of ...I preferred simply putting a cap on the number of demi-human PCs that could be in the party: 1 in 4. <br /><br />When it comes to levels and lifespan, gamers are really over-thinking this. If you want to explain why the world isn&#39;t overrun with 100th-level elf warlocks or 100th-level dwarf fighters, you can say that just as with humans only a small percentage are exceptional enough to advance in level at all, and only a smaller percentage can advance to high level. Most elves, gnomes, dwarves, halflings -like most humans- are just regular 1HD (or less) creatures with no prospects for advancement.Elfdarthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17332202910754546307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70079096120764942172012-03-28T17:57:22.291-04:002012-03-28T17:57:22.291-04:00Or maybe he came to the conclusion that power cree...<i>Or maybe he came to the conclusion that power creep was an inevitable part of a constantly growing game.</i><br /><br>This may well be near the truth, especially if you look at <i>Mythus</i> as an example of his later conception of the baseline power level of fantasy RPG PCs.James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16039017033190440112012-03-28T17:55:37.158-04:002012-03-28T17:55:37.158-04:00Thanks for reminding me of that passage in EPT! I&...Thanks for reminding me of that passage in EPT! I&#39;d totally forgotten about it.James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63500068489066723932012-03-28T17:54:27.512-04:002012-03-28T17:54:27.512-04:00That does seem to have been the case, sadly, but t...That does seem to have been the case, sadly, but then that was true even of the earliest <i>AD&amp;D</i> materials, a good portion of which had no connection whatsoever to what Gary used in his home campaign. <br /><br />A pity.James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49475000380100863282012-03-28T13:51:55.624-04:002012-03-28T13:51:55.624-04:00Got it in One!
Gygax was truly a trailblazer and ...Got it in One!<br /><br />Gygax was truly a trailblazer and top level idea man, and deserves eternal credit for that, but when it came to game mechanics he, bluntly, sucked.<br /><br />None of his game designs, to include Tractics, Boot Hill, Cavaliers &amp; Roundheads, Don&#39;t Give up the Ship, Classical Warfare, et al, are not particularly well written nor mechanically very good.<br /><br />The tendancy is towards complexity and/or &quot;futzyness&quot; (i.e. mechanics that, while not especially hard to learn are nevertheless slow and clumsy to implement). AD&amp;D had this in spades. The combat system alone, spread out over 20+ pages, was a mess if played to the letter with speed factors, weapon length, etc.<br /><br />Contrast this with Steve Jackson&#39;s &quot;Melee&quot; rules, published by Metagaming. This was a very small, tight, and cleanly written rules set that was hands down better than the AD&amp;D disaster. True, it was a little too simplistic, and had some problems, but these were minor and could be corrected with a bit of careful thought. AD&amp;D is more of a tear down and rebuild...<br /><br />I should also point out that Melee was only SJ&#39;s second design, after OGRE. Gygax had been gaming and writing games for many years before and after and never achieved anything close to the game design genius of SJ.Angantyrhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07583089145943203408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10515200409332238442012-03-28T13:48:58.399-04:002012-03-28T13:48:58.399-04:00@Gordon Cooper. Ah; that makes more sense.@Gordon Cooper. Ah; that makes more sense.Joshuahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87394072924106171512012-03-28T07:18:54.090-04:002012-03-28T07:18:54.090-04:00Humans weren&#39;t really all that more different....Humans weren&#39;t really all that more different. By 6th level you were expected to have settled down and be a member of the appropriate temple, regiment, or school.Reverance Pavanehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61999421827284935842012-03-28T03:39:45.290-04:002012-03-28T03:39:45.290-04:00I found much more troubling the allowance of PC (m...I found much more troubling the allowance of PC (multiclass) clerics for ALL races, elves in particular. This made half-elves and half-orcs essentially redundant. Nowadays, even when using UA, I still keep the class choices per PHB, or allow only single-classed elves and dwarves clerics.Antoniohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71186735955187069322012-03-27T22:59:45.095-04:002012-03-27T22:59:45.095-04:00I think there are two different problems with non-...I think there are two different problems with non-humans. One is game balance, which was pretty minor in pre-3E games.<br /><br />The other is just making sense. If Elves and Dwarves live 100s of years old, or even 1000s, why aren&#39;t there 100th level Elves running around running everything? Heck, more than 100th level.Jeremyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06440605975564288373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16148486369136886722012-03-27T22:53:39.024-04:002012-03-27T22:53:39.024-04:00To a certain extent, I think UE was a financially ...To a certain extent, I think UE was a financially driven product. Didn&#39;t they need cash about then? So they whipped up UA, mostly from Dragon articles and rushed it out.<br /><br />But as someone who often played half-elves, I did run afoul of level caps. I remember having a Cleric Ranger that was stuck on 5/8.<br /><br />Also liked Weapon SpecialiJeremyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06440605975564288373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12772562970163886552012-03-27T21:51:40.988-04:002012-03-27T21:51:40.988-04:00I also allowed further advancement but with XP pen...I also allowed further advancement but with XP penalties-not too bad for the first level or so, but increasingly steep. There was only one campaign where it really became an issue, but the players did appreciate that there was the possibility of advancement even if it was extremely difficult.AMPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09146014956720508804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67278100752346555762012-03-27T21:01:57.703-04:002012-03-27T21:01:57.703-04:00I liked the +2 to the limit for single-classed dem...I liked the +2 to the limit for single-classed demihumans. After that though, and for multi-classed demihumans, instead of capping the levels I simply required double the XP to advance after reaching the standard limits.Gururamalamaswamihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17922508024692543257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47377969347305927362012-03-27T19:50:40.450-04:002012-03-27T19:50:40.450-04:00@bad wolf
I think Tolkien&#39;s demi-humans were s...@bad wolf<br />I think Tolkien&#39;s demi-humans were sufficiently aloof from ordinary human affairs (partially because of their greater longevity and partially because of their preoccupation with other matters) that a withdrawal to their own lands is perfectly natural. The elves, dwarves, and hobbits seemed to have little desire to mingle anymore than absolutely necessary with the exception of those less common hobbits found in border towns inhabited by both humans and hobbits. Of course, some campaign worlds seem less like <i>Lord of the Rings</i> than <i>Star Wars</i>, where demi-humans, humans, and humanoids interact so extensively and continuously that the EPT strategy would be a harder sell.Gordon Cooperhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12907319916602597979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74280878905271971902012-03-27T19:37:16.491-04:002012-03-27T19:37:16.491-04:00@Joshua
You misunderstand me. I wasn&#39;t referri...@Joshua<br />You misunderstand me. I wasn&#39;t referring to the size of the fan populations for Conan vs. Lord of the Rings. I was referring to the human population of the Hyborian Age compared to the human population of Middle Earth. Humans are by far the dominant sentient species of the Hyborian Age, whereas humans share Middle Earth with elves, dwarves, and hobbits.Gordon Cooperhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12907319916602597979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12369759656110534322012-03-27T19:35:00.998-04:002012-03-27T19:35:00.998-04:00Gygax&#39;s tone sounds exasperated to me, like he...<em>Gygax&#39;s tone sounds exasperated to me, like he finally got fed up with players that wanted D&amp;D to be about heroic fantasy where every character is too &quot;important&quot; to die.</em><br /><br />You might say that the problem with &#39;heroic fantasy&#39; (straightforward power fantasy, broadly speaking) isn&#39;t that characters are in less danger of dying, it&#39;s that many roleplayers (particularly those raised on D&amp;D&#39;s &#39;oracular&#39; dice and save-or-die stuff, etc.) manifestly have a harder time coming up with <em>more interesting stakes than &#39;the dice might kill you now.&#39;</em><br /><br />Yes, some pushback against &#39;fragile&#39; characters is about not wanting <strong>Sir Precious S. Flake the 2nd-level fighter</strong> to suffer a moment&#39;s harm or unhappiness. But &#39;keep them alive a bit longer, and/but make their <em>lives</em> harder&#39; is an interesting and productive response to the same perceived problem. Whether or not it&#39;s &#39;fair&#39; or &#39;mean&#39; or whatever, plenty of people have pointed out that save-or-die is a somewhat unimaginative paradigm -- it takes what could be a dramatic turning point and hands it off to the metagame (i.e. the character is &#39;out&#39; instead of &#39;changed&#39; -- how very Western, huh?).<br /><br />Nothing to add re: Gygax&#39;s column. He was a dude, he wrote like a dude. He was out of his depth at times. So it goes.Wallyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84451395145705443412012-03-27T18:45:24.192-04:002012-03-27T18:45:24.192-04:00That was the case for my group as well. Mind you, ...That was the case for my group as well. Mind you, we were just in high school at the time, so I guess how one defines &quot;broken&quot; could vary. But we never did anything overly crazy, and never had insane weapons or artefacts at our disposal. Level limits never bothered me though;I figured if they were in the game, then that was that. But in the later years, playing 3/3.5 &amp; Pathfinder, with no limits imposed, I think things are fine in this way as well.Chris#6http://www.blogger.com/profile/08305925037284931371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35723442363174030902012-03-27T17:42:13.574-04:002012-03-27T17:42:13.574-04:00Ah yes, I&#39;ll never forget the resounding CRACK...Ah yes, I&#39;ll never forget the resounding CRACK!!!! my brand-new copy of UA made moments after getting home with it when I opened it for the first time. Silly me, I tried to return my poorly bound book for a replacement, but TSR was having none of that. They saw very few of my $$$$ after that day.Titushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10327841920784343663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48510646233747418482012-03-27T16:39:08.490-04:002012-03-27T16:39:08.490-04:00I did not like level limits in the early 1980s (al...I did not like level limits in the early 1980s (although my highest level character was 9th level). I did however prefer the conceit of an anthropocentric world which was in step with almost all literature.<br /><br />In the end nonetheless I have come to prefer the solution of Pathfinder and the Fourth Edition: weaken or eliminate the most powerful racial abilities and make men extremely attractive with an extra feat and skills to represent the adaptable genius of Man.<br /><br />(Of course when I play Old School, I want the old feel, and then I revel in characters with a maximum level of 4, 3 hit points at third level and a highest attribute of 12.)Talliferhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08541684895097153972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32481879734072847502012-03-27T16:03:52.573-04:002012-03-27T16:03:52.573-04:00@Gordon Cooper
Remember EPT nonhumans are a far cr...@Gordon Cooper<br />Remember EPT nonhumans are a far cry from the watered down Tolkein demihumans: reptilian Shen, multiarmed Ahoggya and insectoid Pe Choi versus smaller/lighter and smaller/stockier humans. Their alienness really supports the idea that they would lose interest in human affairs pretty easily.bad wolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15804828431479742741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76126780882746672042012-03-27T15:50:34.548-04:002012-03-27T15:50:34.548-04:00None of the players in my earlier campaigns got be...None of the players in my earlier campaigns got beyond 8th level or so, so I don&#39;t remember that the limits ever really mattered anyway. If I ever run a new campaign (big if) I probably won&#39;t bother with them.TheShadowKnowshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11073693648569864707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47469756025874767822012-03-27T15:42:22.678-04:002012-03-27T15:42:22.678-04:00I&#39;m curious why you think that the Lord of the...I&#39;m curious why you think that the Lord of the Rings crowd was a &quot;small but hardy minority&quot; compared to the Conan crowd. Not that anyone has any real data (to the best of my knowledge) but I&#39;d certainly say that my experience in the early 80s was that quite the opposite was true.Joshuahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55711583000775872842012-03-27T15:10:14.168-04:002012-03-27T15:10:14.168-04:00John Sapienza&#39;s thoughts on this topic might b...John Sapienza&#39;s thoughts on this topic might be of help together with Gygax&#39;s view. I put them here recently:<br /><br />http://mesmerizedbysirens.blogspot.it/2012/02/non-human-level-limits.htmlCatacomb librarianhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09585095964577331413noreply@blogger.com