What makes a perfect parent?

September 06, 2007

As far as I can tell, the only qualification for becoming a dad is a pulse, as was ably proven by Glenn Close in The World According to Garp when she mounted a comatose man in a hospital to impregnate herself.

Go to any shopping mall and it's hard to believe that the mutant Tourette's sufferers pushing two-litre bottles of coke into their children's paws are capable of looking after a bowl of sea monkeys, let alone another little person (or eight).

At the other end of the scale are those micro-managing, obsessive parents who send their children off to infant art classes, hyperventilate if their kid licks something non-organic and play them Mandarin tapes while they're still poopin' green in their crib.

Why? Simply because they want to give their offspring the best chance at becoming superior people, to succeed and thrive in the rorting and snorting of the modern world.

But is it all just cultural static? Does it really matter? ...

You may have heard of the book Freakonomics by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner, which is described on its jacket as a "rogue economist explores the hidden side of everything".

It's an entertaining read and one of the chapters that caught my attention was "What makes a perfect parent?" in which the authors note the "conventional wisdom on parenting seems to shift by the hour".

"Breast feeding, for example, is the only way to guarantee a healthy and intellectually advanced child - unless bottle feeding is the answer. A baby should always be put to sleep on her back - until it is decreed that she should only be put to sleep on her stomach. Eating liver is either a. toxic or b. imperative for brain development. Spare the rod and spoil the child; spank the child and go to jail," says the book.

However, the most recent radical shift in thinking when it comes to parenting, say the authors, has been provoked by one simple question: "how much do parents really matter?"

"Clearly bad parenting does matter," they say, which all of us have no doubt witnessed with friends who have been abused, neglected or unloved by their parents. The real question is if you adore and dote on your children, what effect does it actually have?

"A long line of studies, including research into twins who were separated at birth, has already concluded that genes alone are responsible for perhaps 50 per cent of a child's personality and abilities," say the authors.

"So if nature accounts for half of a child's destiny, what accounts for the other half? Surely it must be the nurturing - the Baby Mozart tapes, the church sermons, the museum trips, the French lessons, the bargaining and hugging and quarreling and punishing that, in toto, constitute the act of parenting."

Not so fast.

The authors quote another famous study, the Colorado Adoption Project, which followed the lives of 245 babies put up for adoption and found virtually no correlation between the child's personality traits and those of their adopted parents.

They also reference "other studies showing that a child's character wasn't much affected whether or not he was sent to day care, whether he had one parent or two, whether his mother worked or didn't, whether he had two mommies or two daddies or one of each."

This issue is more thoroughly discussed in the 1998 book The Nurture Assumption by Judith Rich Harris in which she argues that parents are kidding themselves if they think they contribute mightily to their child's personality, positing instead that their influence "is overwhelmed by the grassroots effect of peer pressure; the blunt force applied each day by friends and school mates."

Rather than go back and forth between "experts" and different studies, Levitt - who, if you've being paying attention, you'll remember is an economist - crunches numbers: "certain facets of a child's outcome - personality, for instance, or creativity - are not easily measured by data. But school performance is."

Levitt needed a mountain of raw data to get him started and he found it in the US Department of Education's landmark Early Childhood Longitudinal Study, which sought to calculate the academic progress of more than 20,000 kids across America from kindie to fifth grade.

"The ECLS measured the students' academic performance and gathered typical survey information about each child: his or her race, gender, family structure, socioeconomic status, the level of his or her parent's education and so on," says Freakonomics.

"But this study went well beyond these basics ... posing a long list of questions more intimate than those in the typical government interview; whether the parents spanked their children, and how often, whether they took them to libraries or museums; how much television the children watched."

Levitt was then able to generate a list of factors that correlated strongly with good school test scores* and this is what he found mattered and what did not.

Matters: The child has highly educated parents.Doesn't: The child's family is intact.

Matters: The child's parents have high socioeconomic status.Doesn't: The child's parents recently moved into a better neighbourhood.

Matters: The child's mother was thirty or older at the time of her first child's birthDoesn't: The child's mother didn't work between birth and kindergarten.

Matters: The child had low birth weight.Doesn't: The child attended Head Start.

Matters: The child's parents speak English at home.Doesn't: The child's parents regularly take them to museums.

Matters: The child is adopted.Doesn't: The child is regularly spanked.

Matters: The child's parents are involved in the PTA.Doesn't: The child frequently watches television.

Matters: The child has many books in their home.Doesn't: The child's parents read to them nearly every day.

Fascinating huh? The book goes into much greater detail about each of these factors, but I reckon that must be a confronting and also comforting set of data for some parents.

Interestingly, Dr Gordon Livingston, who I quoted a few weeks ago, espouses much the same argument in his book Too Soon Old, Too Late Smart in a chapter titled "Parents have a limited ability to shape their children's behaviour."

He reasons that "children can be raised successfully under a variety of parental regimes ranging from the authoritarian to the permissive. What is important is that children feel loved and respected. It is essential for parents to establish limits, especially around questions of safety and aggression."

Other than that, Livingstone argues "children succeed or fail primarily because of the decisions, good and bad, that they make about how they will live their lives. Parents can try to teach the values and behaviours that they have found to be important, but it is the way we live as adults that conveys the real message to our children about what we believe in."

Livingston reckons that destructive power struggles over room cleanliness and food consumption succeed only in draining parents and alienating children and that when asked "what can I do to make sure my kid turns out well?" he replies:

"Not much, but maybe cutting down on the fights and trying to control your child's every decision might help to make everyone happier, right now."

I know I'm quoting a lot of different people here, but I don't have children, so I can't speak from experience.

One thing that Livingstone says about kids, however, resounded powerfully with me as a single man and I think it's a great truism of modern life.

"Our primary task as parents, beyond attending to the day-to-day physical and emotional welfare of our children is to convey to them a sense of the world as an imperfect place in which it is possible nevertheless to be happy."

"The ability to do this, to be happy with each other, constitutes the most powerful example we can provide our children. A sense of humour helps, too."

D'Accord.

* For a more detailed description of his methodology, read the book, or check out the Freakonomics blog.

If you'd like to email me with a topic suggestion or just vent, try here. I now have more than 800 unanswered emails and no hope of catching up. So I'm instituting a no-reply policy (unless you're hot) because I'm sick of feeling guilty about it. In advance, I thank you for your email.

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Good topic Sam. There's no such thing as a "perfect parent" but it's the ones that have the Coke in the baby's bottle that concern me (and most dental professionals)the most...

Ainsley

September 05, 2007

05:43 PM

And I think you mean Tourette's 'sufferers'.

Ta. - Sam

Winnie

September 05, 2007

05:45 PM

I supppose the best parents can do is instill their rat-bags with some values.

The first lesson I can remember my Mum giving me was "It's a jungle out there". Pretty dark thing to tell a three year old, eh?

Checkout chick

September 05, 2007

05:47 PM

"Sounds like Poopie's getting shagged in Honkers, if you ask me. - Sam"

hahahaha! THAT is funny.. (no offence Mr Poops).... but I don't shag married men. full stop.

And Mr Poops is a Married Man (note the capitals)....

Love and Kisses,

CC

Jen

September 05, 2007

05:48 PM

The only thing that matters is that the kids know that they are unconditionally loved, just because. The rest is just icing.

Ainsley

September 05, 2007

05:52 PM

I always keep my red pen handy when I read your posts Sam.

Confidence is the biggst gift you can give your children. Praise, encouragement and kudos go a long way... even if their painting is shite.

M

September 05, 2007

05:53 PM

Perfect paernt? Is there one? I watch the agony that some of my friends have gone through so far trying to do their best for their little ones. Are they being good parents? Are they not?

Most of them won't know for another 20 years.

blogfloosy

September 05, 2007

06:00 PM

as a parent of three.......my homegrown foundations with no scientific evidence

*fights are no problem (including between folks) - resolution to the fight is the key
*life isn't fair - they are the boss of their rooms but I am the boss of them ipso facto - I am the biggest boss of their rooms
*laugh
*encourage their strengths but also challenge their weaknesses - you cant just play to the stuff you are good at
*I F&*(*)) up sometimes
*they want something (tamogotchi, simpsons films) they have to do a chore or a dozen
*I love them even if they are the naughtiest boys goin about

So much of the 'expert' or worse unsolicited advice just serves to confuse parents, shake their confidence or reinforce parental guilt

Poopie

September 05, 2007

06:07 PM

"Sounds like Poopie's getting shagged in Honkers, if you ask me. - Sam"

It's true, I am!

juan

September 05, 2007

06:24 PM

Most people with Tourette's don't swear uncontrollably. It's not a common symptom.

heidi

September 05, 2007

06:48 PM

good article. it is so pointless all this parental guilt and competition over whose parenting styles are better.
One of my sisters is 21, about to go os before she starts a psych phd and a personal training course (she is a fitness fanatic as well as a total brain), has a million friends and a lot of close ones, is incredibly kind, generous, beautiful, moral, warm, fun, positive and has learnt from her many negative life experiences. The other is a thief, junkie and narcissist who has not had a job for several years and has lost the many friends she used to have (she's alright but). Same upbringing.
I was at a party the other day and teasing a friend over the fact he caused some marital strife for me a few weeks ago by hassling my husband about the fact i don't agree with smacking (he and his mother believe passionately in smacking - his father broke his nose when he was six and he thinks it was fair enough). He made a drunken comment about my kids being a nightmare at the dinner table. My first split second reaction was defensive and worried (am i really doing wrong by my kids by not smacking?? at least my kids are better than yrs when it comes to blah, blah), then I thought - who am i to know if i'm doing the right thing? why worry about it? why be judgemental of others?

Be happy, have fun, relax, enjoy yr time together, set a good example in terms of morals - that is all the advice i would give to other parents

q

September 05, 2007

06:51 PM

can’t say I speak from experience……..but if I could put it in one word, that word would be R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

Respect for self, child, and others.

if you can always orient your behaviour from this point and train the offspring to do likewise it’s gotta at least be a decent place to start. or maybe respect is only one (important) aspect of LOVE…

i think it’s really easy to underestimate the capabilities of little people – and really damage their confidence and sense of self in the process. on the other hand, it’s probably just as easy to overestimate and force them to deal with more stuff than they can handle…

Sam, your description of the mutant parents cracks me up

Strawberry

September 05, 2007

07:10 PM

I know you've quoted a lot of really good articles, books and people, but I'd have to say that I think it's B/S.

Breastfeeding? I refused. My mother said that I took one look and decided I didn't want that thing in my mouth and no force on earth was going to get me to feed from it. Sure, I managed to invent a few new illnesses that the doctors never encountered before, but other than that I'm fine.

Of that correlation with good test scores, well my parents failed in everything that mattered except adoption (we weren't adopted). And yet I still did reasonably well at school (except the HSC) and uni.

I think the only thing that truly matters is if each person is willing to step back, look around them and decide that their circumstances will not shape who and what they become - that their own making is in their own hands, not their parents, not their teachers, not anybody else. We have a blame culture. Everything that happens to us is due to some external factor. Once there is no blaming anybody else, then a person can truly realise what they are capable of.

wilow

September 05, 2007

07:27 PM

Yep, unconditional love, making sure they know its not transient....and that you always wear clean undies when you leave the house.....how else are you going to capture that unique piece of fart-art.

So far the 25 yo is workin gout well, the 20 and 18 yo are still spastic teenagers and the 7 yo is just now challenging the status quo....another 13 years and I will be alone with Mrs Wilow and my failing memories...*sigh*...not perfect but as close as I ever expected to get to perfection

*surprised brap*

cc

September 05, 2007

08:09 PM

Posted by: Checkout chick on September 5, 2007 5:47 PM

how can you tell?

marcusbondi

September 05, 2007

08:18 PM

Sam - you can speak from experience - we all should be able to - we were all kids once- we should hang on to the ability of lucid hindsight and relative deduction of our childhood circumstances.

Bottle feeding is almost never the answer - breast is best for baby. It would solve many of the world's problems if all people where breastfed.

A caring male dad and a female mum is the optimum way to achieve parenting perfection; kids need responsible role-modelling from parents of both sexes.

Lotus

September 05, 2007

08:49 PM

What an interesting topic. I've often wondered why people turn out the way that they do ... and how I wound up with a sister who is my polar opposite.

Sam, could you clarify something for me: are you saying that everything that 'matters' correlates with higher test scores, or simply has a significant impact (either negative or positive)? I was particularly wondering about the influence of low birth weight and being adopted.

serryce

September 05, 2007

08:56 PM

Ah, parenting.

The modern world's biggest and best excuse for a guilt trip!

Hey, lookee! I got the Nines.

Mel

September 05, 2007

08:57 PM

I'm not a parent but I'm a child and my parents were far from perfect when I was growing up, just like I was far from the perfect child. They were both strong-minded, authoritarian and so strict that they had to meet every friend their 7 kids had, and review every book we read and every movie we saw. We had to eat vegetables and brown bread and vitamin c tablets every day. At 15, I was convinced they were put on the earth solely to make my life as embarrassing as possible.

The thing that stopped us kids from packing our bags and leaving en masse was that as strict as they were, both our parents were also funny and sociable and were able to laugh at themselves and send themselves up. At the end of the day, we just sat down at the dinner table, ate, told stories and laughed. As adults, my brothers, sisters and I look back and remember scores of hilarious family stories that still crack us up.

I've done my fair share of arguing and fighting with my parents and sibs, but the thing about big families is that no-one can afford to be precious because you just get ripped down and torn to pieces by the mob. It's humbling to be the family laughing stock but it only usually lasts for a while and then it's someone else's turn (thank God for in-laws, they take the pressure off). Acceptance of each other and a family sense of humour help in mutual tolerance - and this is what I thank Ma & Pa for.

jeqp

September 05, 2007

09:23 PM

I think parents have an effect, not on creating the personality but in directing it. Most personality traits can be good or bad depending on the situation, or how they are applied... it's the job of the parent to encourage their kids to apply the traits in suitable ways at suitable times.

It also helps if they choose a good peer group/school etc, although that can be difficult.

Also, it's "Spare the rod and spoil the child" not "Spare the road and spoil the child". See? That's my pedantry coming to the fore. Very useful when subbing an article, or writing a thesis -- pretty useless when commenting on blogs.

andrea

September 05, 2007

09:27 PM

A lot of interesting thoughts.

I am mightily impressed. (is that a word?)
If I didn't have a child already, you would be the sort of man I would seek to have one with.

By chance(seriously), I've had a child with a similarly thoughtful man, and we together have tried to practice a lot of these philosophies.

I take my child rearing seriously. This doesn't mean adult onset classes on mass. To me it means very careful thinking about the impact you can have on your child simply by the way you relate to them.

Respect...fully yours
A

Swimmer

September 05, 2007

09:43 PM

So. No fart blog then.

On topic- I got a lot out of this thanks Sam. I agree that the kids that flourish have somehow developed an inbuilt message of hope and self-reliance.

As for the mechanics of getting the good message programmed into the little peckers...would love the secret. Looking forward to reading the comments on this topic especially from parents or carers.

Anyone else see that article about the woman who punished her kid by barbequing him???

Josh

September 05, 2007

10:02 PM

Well regardless of what the statistics say I believe being read to frequently by my parents encouraged a love of learning and literature which while likely there genetically probably could not have been exploited so well without thorough nurturing. If nothing else reading to your kids gives them lovely memories, surely a worthwhile pay off in itself.

Kids are pretty resilient though, some parents do stress quite a lot about their parenting. I've been through rough patches growing up; bullying, depression but eventually I overcame my problems and turned out ok.

If I were to nominate a situation in which too many parents err I'd say they give their children access to too much money too early. Kids getting messed up with alcohol and drugs wouldn't have nearly so much problems if they couldn't afford them. Similarly there are a lot of teenagers too immature to drive and their parents should have the wisdom to recognise that and not enable them until they grow up.

SupaSista

September 05, 2007

10:28 PM

When my daughter arrived 13 years ago, i was thrown into a confusion for years about the "right" and "wrong". What you have quoted from Livingstone is perfect, and I am sure that the majority of us Parents have come to the same realisation themselves somewhere along the line. Todays reading was a pleasure because it supported me and my path and decisions and ways of being the Mum I am to the beautiful Monster i am proud to call my daughter
Thanks Sam!

M

September 05, 2007

10:52 PM

Strawberry on September 5, 2007 7:10 PM

Ah yes the breastfeeding thing. Out of the 7 women friends of mine who had babies last year three of those women couldn't breastfeed. One woman's little one refused to even try, another one wasn't producing enough milk to be good for the baby and the other ended up with mactitis.

They each have their own guilt issues about not being capable of doing the right thing from very early on in their wee one's life.

They are all turning one around now and are doing fine so far. They find Aunty M very funny. Apparently it is because I look liek a cartoon character. So their parents say.

Doc

September 05, 2007

11:08 PM

...so she says, Hey, that's not my belly button! And then he goes, "Yeah, well, that's not my finger!"

ha! hahahahahahaha!

PS: Hey! 86th! Yay for me!

Christie

September 05, 2007

11:10 PM

I really can't imagone wilow being a parent!

Stillness in Time

September 05, 2007

11:20 PM

I disagree, or rather, I don't think the study you mentions looked at ALL the variables affecting how kids turn out. There are early childhood longtutidinal studies which emphasise the importance of having a stimulating environment to the development of the developing brain, and there is heaps of evidence to show the affect of nutrition on a childs intelligence (or rather ability to learn) and behaviour.

I think science has a lot more to say on this topic and some economics-based analysis, even if it does provide some insight.

However, I do think there are many many people out there who underestimate the role of genetics, and think that sending their cute little muppet to endless after-school and weekend activities will somehow make them super-smart. I feel sorry for such micro-managed kids...

tidal

September 05, 2007

11:21 PM

the first big lesson you learn as a parent is that this is a relationship with another human being, not a 'project' or even something you have a great deal of control over - and like any other relationship, its subject to the storms that arise in both your life and their own.
some relationships fail. There are times when love isnt as easy and unconditional as you thought it would be when they were an adorable toddler - and on you go, rising or falling to the best of your ability.
my mother died when I was 8, - so of course she was and always will be perfect. My father I judged more harshly - its only in the last few years I've come to feel compassion, not just for his inability to meet our needs as small children, but for his inability to ask us to understand and forgive his weakness.
It took the breathless, bewildering pain of being disconnected from my own child to get a sense of his helplessness...
Its an uneasy peace but one I come to gladly........I no longer expect him to acknowledge the past, and feel the pain of it.
We talk happily about the grandchildren, his business and our very different politics - and take pleasure in each others company.

My only parenting wisdom? in a relationship where you are the adult - well, you have to be the adult. Which means that you have to be the one that goes back and keeps picking up the pieces and trying again, you have to be the one that says, I'm responsible, so I'm saying no (and then taking the abuse). You have to be the one that says you can stop and cry now, and I'll keep going... at least until everyone is all grown up.

sometimes a sense of humour is everything. nothing like a bad joke to derail a an escalating tantrum.......
I imagine wilows talent for farting at will could be put to excellent use.............(my son uses burps..)

Doc

September 05, 2007

11:21 PM

Wait a sec. If you don't beat kids, how are they gonna learn?

You see, there's a certain things that a lot of children experience sometimes from a very early age is a syndrome known "individual spirit." This condition often includes, behaving in MUCH THE WAY WE ALL DID AS KIDS!!! It must be stopped.

No problemo. That's what used cricket bats are made for.

It's also why the Good Lord built another little syndrome into most children, called "trusting." This means, they don't know you're holding a used cricket bat behind your back. Especially when you're saying, "Now come over here and let's just see if a good father-to-son chat can help us learn something new...son."

That's when you whap the livin' daylights outta them, and as Bob's your uncle, their little spirits soon go along with it. What some of us like to call, The Miracle of Life.

....so then the bartender says, "Well, sure--whaddya think I asked him for? A 10-inch pianist?"

persona non grata

September 05, 2007

11:24 PM

The biggest influence on a modern child is the TV. Forget about trying to bring up little Johnny to be a courteous, forthright member of society because, next to TV, you got 2 chances (none and buckleys).

Face it. Dorothy the Dinosaur holds more sway in your childs mind than you could ever hope to. The Wiggles own your kids. Im tipping red cars will be very popular in 15 years.

Fruitcake

September 05, 2007

11:33 PM

Very interesting topic.

My parents are both one of 3 children (1 is the eldest and the other the youngest), and the differences between the siblings is amazing - difficult to believe they come from the same gene pool. On each side there is one absolute fruitcake (excuse the pun).

I think personality is 50% nature and 50% nurture/environment. None of us could possibly be the same as our parents, the generation gap is simply too wide in most cases to bridge. Difference experiences, different upbringing and different friends contribute to a different environment and hence different personality.

I do not believe that a perfect family, ie father and mother is necessary and is mostly a fantasy anyway these days. One of the most well adjusted kids I know (18), was the product of a single mother upbringing. The most important thing is to love your child, be supportive, be honest and most importantly do not judge. My parents were very judgemental and I found it difficult to be honest with them - I was scared to tell them the truth or to ask them questions (sex, drugs, etc). There is much debate about same sex couples raising children, but if they love their children, who are we to judge? They have to go through a rigorous screening process to have children, where sadly hetero couples don't - and so many of them should not have children.

Howgood in Honkers

September 05, 2007

11:42 PM

Posted by: Checkout Chick on September 5, 2007 5:36 PM

I might swing by...

tidal

September 05, 2007

11:56 PM

I have to agree with on the breast is best, there, Marcus, even if I'm not quite as prescriptive on parental gender.(love comes in lots of different packages.)
I wouldn't criticise anyone who can't manage it - I'd just like to recommend it...
-I found it extraordinarily intimate, and hugely pleasurable - part of falling in love with this tiny, dependant human being.
I wonder if the phrase the milk of human kindness comes from a residual memory of being held to mother's breast?

breastfed babies have quite a sweet smell too. I remember my partner's brother (who has three children of his own) encouraging my partner to hold the baby close and smell her. Now thats fraternal bonding for you - two brothers breathing in the scent of newborn.

righteous

September 06, 2007

12:03 AM

So the 'wots in a kiss?' blog was just a holding pattern to allow gestation time for this?

I'd just like to say that I've been a firm and lifelong adherent to suckling myself.

A very wise man once wrote that 'we get the parents we deserve'. Most people didn't know what the fvck he was on about, but they were too insecure to admit it. It was probably due a poor upbringing on their part.

More seriously, I think that once a child reaches the age of intelligent interaction with its peers, anything the parents do or say is a distant second to what the child's peers do or say in influencing the child thereafter. It's the reason very socially conservative parents favour home schooling. I wonder how those kids turn out?

Daisy

September 06, 2007

12:14 AM

Bottle feeding is almost never the answer - breast is best for baby. It would solve many of the world's problems if all people where breastfed.
posted by: marcusbondi on September 5, 2007 8:18 PM

So, that was you, I heard, down at Bondi Beach, desperately calling "Bitty, Bitty, Bitty, Bitty..."?

Ainsley

September 06, 2007

01:29 AM

It would solve many of the world's problems if all people where breastfed.

Posted by: marcusbondi on September 5, 2007 8:18 PM

Until at least their 21st birthday right Marcus? :)

Checkout Chick

September 06, 2007

02:24 AM

Posted by: cc on September 5, 2007 8:09 PM

"how can you tell?"

How can I tell Poopie is married? That's easy, everyone knows about Mrs Poopie and the little poopies...

How can I tell if a man I am thinking of shagging is married or not???

I am hardly a fan of Bush, but getting stuck into his lunch selection because he enjoys meat is pretty annoying. And suggesting in the SMH article that THAT was a large steak shows how out of touch the writer really is.

Moongirl

September 06, 2007

07:18 AM

Here's some truisms that I learnt very early in the piece, that still resound...

#1 It will wash.

#2 Don't tell your baby 'No' as they are climbing up the bookcase and redefining their boundaries: teach them how to get down again safely instead.

#3 Overcome your fear of mice, germs, confrontations, vomit, and angsty teenagers as soon as possible, before those buttons get pushed regardless.

#4 Invest in some quality books and combine them with quiet time and family togetherness each evening before bedtime to encourage sound sleep.

#5 Watch your babies sleeping peacefully. There's no more profound joy as a parent to see that another eventful day has passed and all is well with the world. It's the best affirmation I can give myself as a parent that I'm on the right track.

Beryl Giles

September 06, 2007

07:29 AM

Dear Sam,
Mutant Tourette's sufferer is a deeply offensive description. Would you throw about terms such as "mutant epileptic", or "mutant diabetic" in such a way? Please don't use medical terms as supposedly funny insults.
Thank you,
Beryl Giles

Get over it Beryl. Tell an asthma joke (I'm asthmatic). People are too uptight about this stuff. If I'd made a missing billionaire joke about Steve Fossett, you'd be slapping you knee raw. - Sam

Greg Neilson

September 06, 2007

07:29 AM

Just to clarify Sam's point - when it says that adoption matters in the Freakonomics article, it matters in the negative sense for test scores, not in the positive sense that Strawberry seems to be suggesting.

Greg

Yes; what you said, Greg. - Sam

randomguy

September 06, 2007

07:46 AM

I like to break things down to their basic elements

it makes it easier for me to understand them

so, if you are a parent that means that you are responsible for your child's physical, emotional and intellectual well-being

so starting with the physical, there are basic dietary, rest and exercise requirements for instance

this means that you don't feed them crap, let them stay up too late on school nights or flop in front of a screen indefinitely while the pounds settle in around their gut

as I say, it is simple if you break it down

then there are emotional and intellectual needs

kids need to feel safe, loved and protected; high levels of conflict whether between them and a parent or between the parents will damage them

likewise if there are no boundaries to their behaviour they will not be safe and also they will bully their parents; this will eventually lead to conflict (refer previous comments)

they need to be prepared for what they will encounter in life

sadly schoolyards are a battleground and they will encounter absolute f***wits who will try to put them down or apply peer pressure to conform

how are you gonna deal with that??

I suggest you start early; the greatest gift you can give your kids is your own time

talk to them and explain how things are; information is future ammunition

most importantly teach them the strategic use of humour and sarcasm; no bully likes being taken down and it is a very effective weapon

finally, laughter is the number one thing that makes kids feel good

you may have just accidentally smashed a window trying to swat a bee but if you can laugh about it, well it couldnt have been that big a disaster after all

keep it simple people and use your common sense

trigger

September 06, 2007

07:57 AM

Siblings can be so very very different from each other, which kinda implies there is something even stronger than simply genetics and upbringing. Perhaps it is relative position in the family (like middle child syndrome) or indeed friends and peers.

O who cares?! Tell them every day you love them, and let the rest just occur.

Doc

September 06, 2007

08:17 AM

She goes, "Would I?..Would I?"

And then HE goes, "So what are you? A mutant asthmatic?"

HA! Hahaha! Hahahahaha! Haha...huh?

Ainsley

September 06, 2007

08:18 AM

Take 'Good Will Hunting' for example (my favourite movie of all time). The dude was raised in a trailer park, with abusive low-life parents yet had amazing intelligence that was self-taught.

M

September 06, 2007

08:21 AM

righteous on September 6, 2007 12:03 AM

My god mother has 7 children 3 of which are home schooled. Of the other 4 the eldest went to a public school for high school because she wanted interaction with other people her own age rather than her siblings. The other three are too young at the moment for formalised education.

All of her children are lovely. They are polite, helpful, cooperative and very funny people. They crack me up because they are like a whirlwind of giggling and mischief that is not malicious or cruel. The girls aren't princesses and the boys aren't bullies.

We wonder when my godmother will be pregnant next. She likes having babies. I think she needs a hobby like tubal ligation.

Lotus

September 06, 2007

08:43 AM

Sam, do you realise that on the smh homepage your article is headlined as "What Makes the Perfect Partner" and has a picture of Brad and Angelina? Just thought I'd give you a heads-up, as it is rather misleading.

Max

September 06, 2007

08:45 AM

I disagree with Levitt et al

In every Australians suburb I see enough indian, vietnamese and chinese families around who have gone from the parents being shopkeepers and dry cleaners to the kids being brain surgeons and lawyers in 1 generation to prove that family, values, beliefs, work ethics, expectations etc etc absolutely impact child outcomes.

randomguy

September 06, 2007

08:46 AM

hey Sam: if you had a son would you want him to be a Bunnies fan??

or would it be alright if he supported a proper team, like say the Wests Tigers??

I always wanted a son; I never got one though but you know what - it doesn't matter any more

my daughters are the most precious things I have and I wouldn't swap them for anything

better still, they're both as mad as I am

ha ha, gotta love that

nelly

September 06, 2007

08:46 AM

There was a longitudinal study of identical twins separated at birth which was shown on the ABC a few years ago. Their conclusion was that your personality won’t change but your outcome might. The most striking example was that the same personality growing up in privileged surroundings could be a highly successful merchant banker, whereas an identical person growing up in different circumstances could be in jail for theft. Same entrepreneurial characteristics play out quite differently depending on many environmental factors. Some of the kids in the study overcame great environmental adversity to become accomplished and successful people.

So you can’t change the personality but you might be able to guide the outcome.

When they say that the education level of parents is important is that the genetic parents or the people who bring you up? I have never quite got that bit.

And whilst we are on stuff that’s hard-wired in the brain the current NewScientist has a great article on religion and morality.

On a more subjective note – my experience is that children have a very strong sense of right and wrong and are quite outraged by contraventions of their code. Their sense of social justice is also highly influenced by their primary school’s philosophy and practices. You can not stamp your own beliefs onto your child, you can only demonstrate a happy and productive life in the hope that they will aspire to achieve one too, oh and live in a society whose morality is aligned with your own!

nelly

September 06, 2007

08:53 AM

• Posted by: trigger on September 6, 2007 7:57 AM

You are right about birth order. There have been many interesting studies done, a good summary is ‘Why firstborns rule the world and lastborns want to change it’. Sorry I can’t remember who it is by but it is easy to find.

Position in the family has a big shaping effect on how we judge ourselves and therefore how we adjust our own behaviour.

Like all of these things it is only a factor playing on your basic personality. It is not the full picture.

• Posted by: randomguy on September 6, 2007 7:46 AM

Well said. I have recently had need to dredge up a memory of when I did something wrong and had to confess. The kids loved it and want to know more about my imperfect youth. Letting them see that you are happy and complete with all your strengths and weaknesses is a great example to set.

wilow

September 06, 2007

09:00 AM

I really can't imagone wilow being a parent!

Posted by: Christie on September 5, 2007 11:10 PM

How come? Is it something I said? Or is something to do with your imagination....?

*Farts are friends, dont eat the farts brap"

Nick Carraway

September 06, 2007

09:05 AM

You will not know whether you have been a good parent until your kids are about 30 years in age. You make a decision on whether your parents were any good at the job after you have your own kids. Apart from your efforts to mould your children they have an effect on you and make you a better person. I had children not to promote my DNA but to make myself a less selfish person. I did not what to become self obsessed. I have 2 girls who mean the world to me and we have struggled with all the issues you have listed above. They have many differences and are completely different in personality despite being raised identically.

So I am now realizing that environment is probably less than 50% of the final make up but we do have an effect on the remainder.

My oldest is 14 and is starting to be confronted with the usual issues of boyfriends, sex, fitting in, alcohol and drugs. In many ways the scariest time for a parent. I try to be more supportive and relaxed and my wife is the opposite. My chats to the kids of drug taking at university did not go down well with my wife who would like the tell them nothing approach

To be honest Im not sure the correct way to react as a parent during the teens and I guess I will have to bumble through it by providing unconditional love and support.

wilow

September 06, 2007

09:07 AM

I imagine wilows talent for farting at will could be put to excellent use.............(my son uses burps..)

Posted by: tidal on September 5, 2007 11:21 PM

Hey Tidal - spot on. Will Shakespear called it an aside, Anthony Robbins calls it a pattern break but to me its all just wind....

*literarily pretentious brap*

nelly

September 06, 2007

09:12 AM

Sorry, I’m a bit chatty today.

The key thing I want for my kids is resilience. When they get knocked down I want them to be able to get up again (physically, emotionally, financially etc) without lasting damage to their self esteem. Beyond that their destiny is in their own hands.

Being a parent is scary.

boof

September 06, 2007

09:18 AM

Posted by: Ainsley on September 6, 2007 8:18 AM

good will hunting wasn't a documentary. you could just as easily say that his success was because that's what the writer chose to write. nonetheless, i take your point. the study quoted doesn't say that if you are brought up in a high SES household you are guaranteed success, nor that if you are brought up in a low SES household you are guaranteed failure. it merely says that across the broad sweep of society these things seem to have an influence, but it doesn't say how that influence results in higher test scores.

Posted by: Max on September 6, 2007 8:45 AM

you might find that those shopkeepers and dry cleaners were surgeons and lawyers in India, Vietnam or China before coming to Australia.

wilow

September 06, 2007

09:21 AM

The idea of nature vs nurture is timeworn and dont think it will get solved here today.

Having said this I would like to add in an observation for comment. One of the most reliable way to categorise people is from the size of their family and their position in the birthing order. 1st child is the most messed up, last child epecially in the 2-4 child sized family have the youngest kids being less dependant, more relaxed and with a sense of humour that tends towards self deprecation...youngest in large families seem to be the most well adjusted of the lot. Dont know too many only children but suspect they are a category all their own for fuckeduppedness

I have married first borns and second borns of smaller families and they are totally different when it comes to authority, rules, fun and mischief

anyone else noticed this?

*anthroplogical brap*....oooh, that one was dusty

Stormy

September 06, 2007

09:21 AM

Posted by: Moongirl on September 6, 2007 7:18 AM

Thank you Moongirl. As a very inexperienced father of a 2 month old boy, that's the sort of stuff I need to hear. I couldn't agree more with your last point either, albeit a lot of the time I've been watching my little bloke sleep has been in hopeful desperation after feeding him at 3AM...

I'll probably regret doing this but I just have to. Marcus, why oh why do I bother asking, are you (a) a female, (b) a parent? If no and no, please shut the f*ck up about breastfeeding. Yes there is no doubt that breastmilk is chockful of nature's goodies, and of course in the mythical perfect world where every woman was physically and mentally capable of doing it, it would be just tickety-boo if everyone did it. But I have news for you, some women can't, or have extreme difficulties, and let me tell you that a stressed and post-natally depressed new mother does not a happy baby make. As several doctors, midwives, and community health nurses have told Mrs Stormy and I - whatever works for you and the baby is best. He started on out the breast, went to a mix of breast and expressed, but when my wife's post natal depression was diagnosed as acute, and her milk dried up, we only had one option...which was recommended by all the above health professionals. It was either that or tequila and the good shit's way too expensive.

Sam, I respect the amount of research and reading you've obviously been doing here, but if you could pick a topic with more conflicting published views (almost all eminently believable by themselves but often utterly contradictory) than early childhood/parenting/how to best bring up your kids, please let me know what it is ! ("Stones or Beatles" does not count).

Harry

September 06, 2007

09:24 AM

The reference to "the mutant Tourette's sufferers" was a bit off colour.

I remember an unfortunate wretch at school who was ragged (read 'bullied') mercilessly because he suffered the unfortunate effects of this awful disease.

People with disabilities suffer enough.

To be completely fair, political correctness is equally offensive to people with disabilities.

*******************************
Hi Tidal - agreed on the boob thing - breast-fed babies are so lucky! You can just see it in the whole relationship, let alone all the nutritional benefits.

If all humans had that total love / nutrition connection with their mothers from birth, then followed up thru kinder and schooling, I predict there would be less angry people in the world.

That's why I believe women kissing is more natural than men kissing - all human babies bond most with the mother - a soft, nice female form, not a harsh-scratchy smellymale one. So that's why both men & women love women and why women are on men's magazine's and women's magazines. (Except men's health which is renowned as a gay perve rag)

*****************************

IMHO - wilow would be a great dad- actually, since my dad isn't around, i would/could easily/happily utilise wilow as a surrogate dad for rational advice and fun times with the ladies of the night...

*********************************

Poopie - what can I say!?!?!?!?!
Oh, yeah, keep yer hands off Checkout Chick's price gun and bain marie. I wish I could be there with you in HK, but I have heard that all the best hookers have gone to Shang Hai, so no point going to honkers, really?

The original L

September 06, 2007

09:38 AM

I am aware of twin and adoption studies that you mention and in and of themselves they are quite useful. What I have a problem with is what is used to measure personality traits etc or what these even are. Things like school marks can be examined, but the science of personality is, in my opinion, very dodgy indeed.

Ralph

September 06, 2007

09:41 AM

I have heard that all children need is to be known that they are loved. To do this just talk with them, spend time with them and set rules for them to live by. As they get older, set the rules with them as well as the consequence for breaking the rule.

Main thing though - spend quantity time with them NOT quality time.

Shane

September 06, 2007

09:43 AM

I'm getting closer....my current squeeze is very satisfactory actually. A tubal ligation, financially independent, intelligent & interesting, can cook, good bod and a fine attitude to sex.

nelly

September 06, 2007

09:43 AM

Posted by: wilow on September 6, 2007 9:21 AM

Could be time to have a read of Philip Larkin's 'This be the verse'.

Written by an eldest or only child is my guess. Can anyone confirm?

e1eanor

September 06, 2007

09:51 AM

Sam, there's not really any stigma associated with being an athsmatic that i'm aware of. You're not seen as a freak if people find out you have athsma.

Fair dinkum. Start a petition. You people have too much time on your hands. - Sam

Nick Carraway

September 06, 2007

09:53 AM

Posted by: Stormy on September 6, 2007 9:21 AM

I know how you feel as I have seen many parents who struggle with breastfeeding particularly with their first child. They go through tremendous grief and a feeling of inadequacy at failing to provide the very best for their child.

Dont worry about it, all of these kids who were bottlefed turn out fine. I knew a woman who never produced a drop of milk, dont know why, the machinery was not hooked up. She had 4 kids all of which were bottle fed and grew up to be just fine.

We were lucky as after an initial struggle with our first it came good after a few weeks. Those first few weeks was sheer hell so I know how you feel. You just have to ignore the negative comments because really all that matters is you have a child who is alive.

wilow

September 06, 2007

09:55 AM

Posted by: marcusbondi on September 6, 2007 9:30 AM

Happy to oblige as a father figure....Marcus, take your breast out of you mouth, the wax from your ears, the wool from your eyes, and the thumb from your bum and GO TO YOUR ROOM NOW!

You are grounded for making unfounded blog comments about parenting. You are not a parent so cannot 'know' anything about it....you may suspect....but that just doesnt cut the cheese....

so STFU, HTFU or stay in your room till you do....oh, and step away from the keyboard....slowly, thats a boy....now switch th ebitch off....and go get some life experience that I dont have to pay for...

how was that?

*cranky dad brap*

Bilby

September 06, 2007

09:57 AM

Wish I had time to post on this one properly, but everytime I try it turns into an essay and I delete it. I started last night but caught up with "other" duties ;-) Loving what's been said so far.

Louise

September 06, 2007

10:00 AM

It all depends, though, on whether or not you think "school performance", as the outcome or criteria matters. My father died when I was four and I blitzed school and got first class honours at Uni, so sure it didn't affect my academic performance. But, despite the fact that I actually look like a reasonably well adjusted and successful person, I am still in "counselling", 30 years later, trying to sort out some of the things I consider of far greater importance than academic performance (and over-achievement can be a symptom of other problems, more than a measure of success anyway).

moet blue

September 06, 2007

10:03 AM

i feel very strongly about this subject because so many people blame their parents for their own lack of achievement in life. I believe our parents do the best job they know how to do.

my own parents believe they are great parents, but by todays standards they would have been considered neglectful and emotionally abusive.

Still i don't hold that against them, i made my own life what it is and i appreciate the efforts they did make and i know their intentions were good. And that is what matters to me.

Moongirl

September 06, 2007

10:04 AM

Nick Carroway and Stormy, imagine your babies in 21 years time. At their birthday parties, cast your eyes around the room at their friends, full of hope, joie de vive, gorgeous young men and women.

Now - tell me which ones of those were bottle fed. Which ones were dropped accidentally during the infamous Nappy Changing Incident. Which ones slept with a blankey until High School. Which ones came home with a Police chaperone at 2am. Which ones screamed abuse at their parents for reading their diaries. Which ones repeated year 3. Which ones didn't make the cut for the footy team.

You forgot to mention that he can't borrow the car on Saturday night, and to keep out of your beer fridge.

Ainsley

September 06, 2007

10:09 AM

I think if you feel you were given good parenting yourself as a child, then you tend to model your own parenting on that. I am constantly saying to my oldest son, now when I'm dead and you're a grown man I want you to remember this. And then impart some pearl of wisdom that I recall receiving from my parents. On the other hand I know many people who had bad parental influences who go out of their way not to parent their own children in the same manner that they were.

serryce

September 06, 2007

10:11 AM

Having had the night to think this blog topic over, I think the people going on about respect have the right of it. Respect and responsibility - respect for others and responsibility for one's own actions.

Too many people seem intent on giving up on any responsibility or accountability for their actions. The world does not owe people a living, life does not entitle anyone to anything, and when you piss directly above your head you get rained upon!

I was holding a friend's kid one evening after church, and the little tyke grabbed my hair and pulled. After I wiped the tears from my eyes I whacked him lightly on the hand and said, "No!" And then checked with his dad who was nearby. "Oh, if he hurts you, then let him know it's unacceptable," he said. "He should learn that other people's standards matter, too."

Which I thought was an excellent way to protect against "the happy brigade" (who think that it's all okay as long as the child is happy) and later entitlement issues (namely: the only person in the universe who matters is ME).

So, yeah, I'd smack a child, yell at them, yes, even make them cry if it made a point.

The world is not going to sugar-coat everything for them as adults, and while I'm all for making childhood as carefree as possible for kids, how can they be expected to learn anything if we don't let them fall over, make mistakes, take the consequences every now and then?

D.E.X

September 06, 2007

10:12 AM

blogfloosy on September 5, 2007 6:00 PM

Yeh when it all comes down to it parents are only human and make errors.. sometimes really bad ones like George Bush Snr
LOFL

===============================
wilow on September 6, 2007 9:55 AM
Aww matey.. don't take Marcus my mate out of his comfort zone.
He will be lost until the weekend you know.

I have to disagree with just because you don't have kids , you don't know about being a parent.
I have to babysit kids from 8-16 from time to time and seen them all grow over the last 10 years.

Lots of really funny stuff but yeh 24 hours a day would be a bit much but at least it gives me an idea I reckon.

Ainsley,
Don't tease Marcus like that he gets all to excitable far too easily
HAHAH
red cordial not even needed

I better get back to some work or at least look like I am doing some here

wilow

September 06, 2007

10:22 AM

Hey Serryce....just wanted to say that I liked your posts and thought that todays nailed it - especially re the happy brigade and this plague of self entitlement - also with you on the smack, yell, cry thing.....hom eshould be safe but childhood is about equiping for adulthood as well....and I see a lot of smacking, yelling and crying out there that requires skills to deal with

FeministPropaganda

September 06, 2007

10:24 AM

I think the most important thing for parents to do is have fulfilling lives themselves. Parents who obsess over their kids give the kids the impression they have to live up to the ridiculous efforts their parents put in to them, and also are spoilt. Much better happy parents with their own lives as an example to show kids.

wilow

September 06, 2007

10:28 AM

D.E.X. - yes, babysitting and othe rfamily duties certainly give you some insight into kids, and to a lesser extend, parenting but I would have to say its a lot like the difference between bacon and eggs....

Babysitting is the eggs....involved but not committed whereas the bacon means the pig is definitely committed - like parents

All views are welcome tho....you never know when a new and interesting kid torture gets devised...and I do like to be at the leading edge of these things

Marwood

September 06, 2007

10:33 AM

I don't think there is such a thing as the perfect parent. I also don't believe that there is some magic formula for bringing up children, because all children are different. The way I see it, if you have managed to raise a child to be a relatively healthy adult who can function adequately in society and take responsibility for their own decisions and welfare, you've done your job. The rest is up to them.

jf

September 06, 2007

10:34 AM

Take 'Good Will Hunting' for example (my favourite movie of all time). The dude was raised in a trailer park, with abusive low-life parents yet had amazing intelligence that was self-taught.

Posted by: Ainsley on September 6, 2007 8:18 AM

Ainsley - was your tongue firmly in your cheek when you made this post?

Or are you going to next cite Superman as proof that people can fly.

e1eanor

September 06, 2007

10:39 AM

Posted by: serryce on September 6, 2007 10:11 AM

Fair enough; i have had to 'clock' a child that had a firm grip on my hair too (although not with the intention of hurting the child; it's more a short sharp shock to stop them hurting you). The smack did not hurt or upset the child and i doubt it would offend anyone who saw it.

Two sayings about raising kids that always made sense to me: "parents should give their children two things: roots and wings"

&
"it takes a village to raise a child"

both these sayings are very pertinent, but the second one is mostly overlooked within the community, I think and that's a great shame for the children, the community and the parent/s.

pps. i don't know how single parents do it:- what a job!

nelly

September 06, 2007

10:42 AM

OK, I promise this is the last one for a while.

My model for parenting comes directly from my own parents who, for all their faults, are a happy, loving and lively couple now in their mid 70s.

I can’t aspire to more than that.

Lotus

September 06, 2007

10:42 AM

Posted by: Bilby on September 6, 2007 9:57 AM

Posting on the blog vs your "other" duties ... glad to see you have your priorities straight!

Damien

September 06, 2007

10:43 AM

Sam,

As a parent of a 4 and 2 yo i found this blog very interesting. I especailly agree with the last bit about a sense of humour. THere is nothing better than hearing kids laughter ! Nice job...

Harry

September 06, 2007

10:43 AM

I think Drew Barrymore said something along the lines that a good parent (or substitute parent in her case) is one who is there when you need them.

I guess that is the hard part - allowing independence and the right to make a few mistakes, while being there for support (ie not see me next week, or only only available during the parent's definition of 'quality time').

Mali

September 06, 2007

10:55 AM

"Our primary task as parents... is to convey to them a sense of the world as an imperfect place in which it is possible nevertheless to be happy."

Totally agree here, to which I'll also add the point that parents make the mistake of teaching their kids that 'anything is possible, as long as they just believe in themselves', that the finger painting they do is sign of Picasso's reincarnation and that the crappy little poems they shit out means they are blossoming literary genius'. My suggestion to parents is this: teach your kids a healthy self-esteem, but don't blow them up to become tubby balloons of arrogance. Some kids will grow up ordinary, and live mediocre lives. Getting them used to it at an early age means they'll avoid disappointment later on. It also makes their small successes just that little bit sweeter.

FeministPropaganda

September 06, 2007

11:02 AM

Posted by: Max on September 6, 2007 8:45 AM

Just maaaybe their parents are doing the less skilled jobs because of problems with english and fitting in to a new country. Sort of shoots all sorts of holes in that theory doesn't it?

Discipline's Disciple

September 06, 2007

11:03 AM

"A caring male dad and a female mum is the optimum way to achieve parenting perfection; kids need responsible role-modelling from parents of both sexes." --- marcusbondi on September 5, 2007 8:18 PM

As opposed to what? A female dad and a male mum? Who the parents are matters more than how many or what gender. My grandmother was a big one for sniffing about children raised without fathers. This conveniently ignored the fact that so was she. She thought she was different because her mother hadn't chosen to raise her as a single parent, her father was respectably lost at sea when she was a small child.

I always shag men I don't know. I have to. Once they get to know me, they don't want to shag me.

TS

September 06, 2007

11:06 AM

I've got to say on your description of Mutant Tourette's Sufferers....I suffer from Tourettes. I don't have coprolalia (the swearing) but I pretty much have the rest and I have to take some mind numbing drugs to control it....and your desciption made me laugh out loud! One thing you learn about having something like this is that you have to have a good sense of humour about it....maybe something my parents taught me? The world would actually be a lot better place if people just relaxed a bit more, and stopped worrying about being breastfed or bottlefed....(just to clarify before it starts off I was breastfed so the Tourette's doesn't come from that!)

Poopie

September 06, 2007

11:09 AM

Parenting: buggered if I know, I just make it up as I'm goin' along and try to keep 'em laughing.

Bilby

September 06, 2007

11:11 AM

Posted by: e1eanor on September 6, 2007 10:39 AM

I have the utmost respect for single mums these days. I only have to be a single dad for a week a year when Mrs B goes OS for a conference, but it nearly kills me ;-) It does get easier as they get older I must say. When you can say "I'm going to have a shower and I expect you to be dressed when I get out" there is all of a sudden so much more time ;-)

k8

September 06, 2007

11:12 AM

I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to read today's comments yet, so forgive me if I repeat what others have said.

There's no such thing as a perfect parent. We are all human, with our own imperfections, and it takes enormous strength to deal with the knowledge of those imperfections and to push on regardless, doing the best we can when we know it might not be good enough. When I was 35 I finally realised that my own parents were human and had done their best, and it made my life fractionally easier to understand.

The lack of perfection in our own parenting is the cause of so much angst, guilt, anger, disappointment, depression that it can be overwhelming. 8 months into therapy I'm starting to truly understand in my own heart that perfection is unattainable, and that if I can just keep doing my best and keep showing the littlies how much I love them, then it will be OK in the end.

For those at the other end of the spectrum, who treat their children poorly and believe that they have the "right" to their children's love and respect, I feel real sorrow. When M and I are sitting at the bar in hell it is those life-damagers whose suffering we'll be watching. Their suffering will be nothing compared to the pain and damage they inflict on their children.

Falco

September 06, 2007

11:13 AM

Posted by: Toby on September 6, 2007 5:53 AM

Vicki Flood would be an absolute riot at a barbeque, eh?

She seems to think flavour causes cancer or something.

marcusbondi

September 06, 2007

11:16 AM

wilow - you have married 'first borns and second borns'? yikes! that's it dad - you're sacked for being a groom to child brides!

and i was always suss about your going in to bat for benders...must be something to the way you suck on that cigar!!!

aw, c'mon dad - you said yo wouldn't get mad at me!!!

btw - i got 9s twice in a row -so i must be dbl right!

*******************************

stormsy, dear stormsy - we have all gone through childbirth and childhood - some of us are so inured to the essence of humanity that we allow ourselves to forget ourselves.

and sorry, as much as i'd like to humour you and partake in your fascist utopia, i will not 'shut the f*ck up about anything', especially my opinions. you can learn fom me about democracy & freedom of speech - i am always happy to hear your opinions....

also, with a new baby, you are sleep-deprived, confused and a blubbering mess, so I will take that into account. and you & mrs stormy are no longer the centre of attention; i'm sure that grates, but get used to it.

So, having been thru childbirth and childhood - i totally accept mrs stormy not being able to breastfeed - if it's impossible, then it is impossible. it's when it is lazy parenting that i feel obliged to make issue.... breast formula companies are insidiously marketing to insecure/unsure mothers.

have you consulted with a counsellor from the ABA? (aust b-feed assoc) they are remarkable at what they can achieve...

do you think it is an accident that breast feeding is much more prevalent in higher educated/socio-economic families and formula is rife in lower-socio economic areas and 3rd world countries?

what is best for baby is best.

Huskynik

September 06, 2007

11:20 AM

There's no such thing as a perfect parent.

A good parent will try to do what they think is best for their child, but that doesn't mean that everyone will agree with their methodology.

For example, I've never seen the need to smack somebody else's children yet have been able to communicate the same message as serryce @10:11am

I do think that as a society we are over-analysing our lives. Some of the information might be informative, but far too many people take it seriously. Surely every parent in history has had much the same concerns as parents today? Parenting styles will change according to society's values of the day, but with the plethora of information available from such a wide number of sources I can't see any evidence that people today are better-adjusted than those of one hundred years ago. I can't see any evidence that modern parents are superior to their ancestors.
I may just go out on a limb and say that there's probably more f*cked up people than there were 100 years ago. Sometimes too much information has a negative effect.

Heironymous

September 06, 2007

11:21 AM

Nature/ Nurture, two sides of the same coin. While some of the environmental factors may not have a great influence in these studies, I would suggest it is a matter of degree. Remember the Romanian orphans after the fall of Caecescu (Don't know if I've spelled that correctly). Well there were all these little blind children in the orphanages. Turns out there was nothing wrong at all with them genetically, nor had they been blinded physically. They just had not been exposed to light at the necessary time in their infancy to develope the necessary neural connections for sight. Incredibly sad but I think indicative that gross neglect will dramatically effect the outcome (phenotype). Analogous to this I think early diet is important, particularly vitamin B intake, but provided your not completely neglectful the child's outcome shouldn't be significantly altered. However that's no reason not to try and make them eat their vegetables

We just try and teach our kids right from wrong and not do drugs/alcohol (like their Dad).

The older they get, the more I believe they will turn out how they want to turn out.
Just try and keep them happy and help them believe in themselves. Self confidence is a key element IMO.

Great post Sam.

Bilby

September 06, 2007

11:45 AM

Posted by: Lotus on September 6, 2007 10:42 AM

No offence to the fine folks on this blog, but I didn't have to think for long ;-)

---

On topic

Glad people have mentioned beatings. My mum used to say a kid should get a smack in the morning for what they will do during the day, and another one at night for the things they got away with ;-)

Urban Jungle

September 06, 2007

11:47 AM

I reckon there are to many labels people put onto parenting and my biggest annoyence is the so called experts. I have had a bit of experience with these so called experts and my first question to them before they even start is do they have kids? The second is what do they do now? Usually you will find out they either have none or the kids they do have are fcked up so really they have no idea just a piece of paper which is not even good enough to wipe your kids bum with.

My ideas on parenting is ALWAYS tell the truth no matter how hard or painful it is. Smack there bum when bad, give them lots of hugs and kisses and spend as much time with them as possible. Hmm also provide a home where they feel safe and make sure they are fed correctly. Having a mum and dad under the same roof that get along is a bonus.

I look at my boys and am proud of them. Sure they annoy the crap out of me on occassions and they are definitely not angels but they do so many things that make me feel good.

Ainsley

September 06, 2007

11:54 AM

Posted by: marcusbondi on September 6, 2007 11:16 AM

Marcus you are obviously a fan of the lactating breast. What you say about the prevalence of formula feeding in 3rd world countries is true. Sadly in these areas the lack of proper sterilisation procedures and unsafe drinking water makes this a huge contributor to infant mortality.

corgette

September 06, 2007

11:58 AM

oh mygod - you smacked someone else's child?? and THEN checked to see if it was allright with the parents?

i am stunned!

i smacked my (own) toddler at the cafe last week - just lightly on the back of his hand to remind him not to put his feet on the table - and a mother of a brand new baby swung her head and glared at me ! i thought to myself - just you wait!!

M

September 06, 2007

11:58 AM

marcusbondi on September 5, 2007 8:18 PM

Marcus my dear that is a very simplistic way of looking at parenting. A single parent can provide the guidance and support a child needs more effectively than a father and a mother who are cruel and neglectful parents.

As long as there is one parent who supports and provides an environment that nurtures their child it doesn't matter what gender or sexual orientation they are. Two parents are the ideal regardless of gender and sexual orientation and it doesn't always work that way and is not always in the best interests of the child.

wilow

September 06, 2007

12:01 PM

Posted by: Mali on September 6, 2007 10:55 AM ...on being able to achieve anything .....

I dont think its as simple as you have put it - anyone can in fact be anything they want....as long as they are prepared to do all the things it takes to be what they want.

A respected coffee maker that blogs regularly here (Hey RG...skinny latter for me...ta) says it best...life is like a supermarket - you can take what ever you like as long as you pay for it.

My point here is that is part of most parents desires to see their children strive and flourish and its hard for these parents to limit their children by telling them that some things will always be out of reach. I agree that when parents forget to spell out the "you have to pay for what you want" but then the human excrement will hit the oscillating cooling device

Bilby

September 06, 2007

12:02 PM

Bugger. Can't help but get into today's topic.

Posted by: marcusbondi on September 6, 2007 11:16 AM

[start rant]
Dude... Until you've watched your wife shed tears over breast feeding, I would suggest in the humblest possible terms that you stay out of it. It is a very emotional subject for a lot of women and their partners, and shouldn't be treated lightly. Attitudes such as yours, which are clearly in line with the *nice* people at the ABA, are not actually very helpful. We all have the "breast is best" message shoved down our throats in ante natal classes and the like. Let's leave it at that. Peace, love and goodwill to all ;-)
[end rant]

Mother of three

September 06, 2007

12:10 PM

As a parent of 3 kids, aged7,3 and 1 I often get to the end of a less than perfect day, having yelled at the older ones at least once or twice and think "what am I doing wrong, I'm sure my parents didn't feel like this". Maybe I am a bad parent, maybe not, However I love my children unconditionally (go check out Sacha's blog on poo for some unconditional love situations!) and give them shelter, food and clothing. I read to them all every night and every now and then I think bugger the cleaning I'll sit and play barbies or lego or painting or dressups. The world won't end if I have a dirty floor, and besides it will increase their immunity to disease....

Please those of you who have breastfeed, don't condemn those who can't. Of my three children I wasn't able to breasfeed any of them. Lord knows I tried and put myself through torture. If it works, fabulous, if it doesn't please please don't beat yourselves up - read baby a book instead.

marcusbondi

September 06, 2007

12:10 PM

DD - yes, actually, it's best if females don't pretend to be dads nor males pretend to be mums.

Love, time, attention and dedication are all important, but while we have our wishlist out, two parents, one of each sex is best also.

One parent of each sex is best for parental modelling. And hetero kissing! If there were no hetero kissing you would not exist, DD, you are a direct result of glorious, fantastic man-woman hetero breeder passion love ....and it's great! Congrats! revel in it and enjoy it, luv!

****************************
Ainsley - well I have had some insights....and totally support female breasts!

wilow

September 06, 2007

12:13 PM

Parental age certainly plays a role in all of this as well

I am now more interested in potting plants than potting Mrs Wilow now....

perhaps I need to take the advice of one charming poster y/day...."gross old man go away".....damn that hurt....I am so gutted that someone picked all of my key traits without even meeting me in the flesh (and gas)

M

September 06, 2007

12:15 PM

Ainsley on September 6, 2007 11:54 AM

I think Marcus may be thinking more about a special service that can be provided to adults in some establishments.

Jas

September 06, 2007

12:24 PM

What matters is that you do the best you can. That your kid knows that.

Posted by: Chewbacca on September 5, 2007 5:35 PM

Cant agree with that.

What matters is that the child knows it is valued by those it values.

What matters is that the childs mind is fed truth and it's personality is grown and stretched at its natural pace.

What matters is that the child is safe and not neglected.

D.E.X

September 06, 2007

12:37 PM

Emperor of Pellucidar on September 6, 2007 11:22 AM

Degree in spelling? - unconditional? :)

wilow on September 6, 2007 10:28 AM
Yeh I hear ya mate.
But at least I am in the pool even if it is up to my knees.
Dunno what it is like up 2 my neck
LOL
I have had 4 day w/ends looking after them..thats fun....
well I keep telling myself that
LOFL

Ainsley on September 6, 2007 11:54 AM
Nah mate , Marcus is just a fan of the breast..period
HAHA

Marcus pickup line :)
????????????,b? ????? ??????? !

I hope that comes out. I use a Mac.

Thursty

September 06, 2007

12:37 PM

"You are not a parent so cannot 'know' anything about it....you may suspect....but that just doesnt cut the cheese...."
Posted by: wilow on September 6, 2007 9:55 AM

You are a first class idiot.

When some idiot with a dick makes an "accident" this doesn't make him automatically a knowledgable parent. Like anything in life people "learn" as they go along. In nature animals use instinct to rear their young, and they don't always get it right and some die, and that is natures way and survival of the fittest too.

There are many people, who take on parenting roles that don't even have children. You might aid in the raising of a niece or nephew, or an adopted child, or be a mentor to someone.

Do we really need to study parenting in great detail? We live in a society and pretty much the majority of mankind are all involved in the raising of young and the passing on of knowledge to the next generation.

Kids are hard wired to learn from day one. Regardless of whether you teach them or not, they will learn something.

The only advice I could give to new parents, is let your children have access to a world of knowledge. Teach them good manners. Don't force them to play a musical instrument that they don't want to learn. And if you have a son, teach him to always open a door for a lady, always pull out her chair for her and always stand up when the elderly, or a woman needs a seat. The rest is a piece of piss.

Pdev

September 06, 2007

12:38 PM

Again great topic Sam and a good take on it. As a parent son 13, daughter 10 I think one of the best things you can do for them is to love their mother/father. So many people do not know what a successful relationship looks like- I am not condeming single parents here but kids today need to understand that they will probably only have a successful adult realtionship when they grow up if they understand how an equal, respectful, loving life is lived. I also agree with modeling a life for kids - useless spending $$$ on expensive schools expecting them to distill a love of culture if they never see you read a book, hold an intelligent conversation or sit around watching Australian Idol and Today Tonight..

serryce

September 06, 2007

12:41 PM

There have been many interesting studies done, a good summary is ‘Why firstborns rule the world and lastborns want to change it’.

~nelly @ 8:53 AM~

I really wish my youngest sister wanted to change the world! Or, at least, her habits. What a slob!

~wilow @ 10:22AM~

Thanks, wilow!
*grateful brap*

~HuskyNik @

Yeah, I know the same instruction can be given without the smackage; in that situation, he was about 15 months, and the short sharp rap across the knuckles was more to startle him into letting go than hurting him.

I don't think the occasional whack is a bad thing. It could be dangerous if you're an adult prone to losing your temper, though. Which is possibly the big danger: adults who are essentially "big kids" when it comes to managing their own anger losing it when they have to deal with their children and going overboard.

Someone further up the food chain...uh...I mean this blog entry, said that when you're parenting, the important thing is to BE an adult, and not just a big kid. I never thought of it like that, but it's a brilliant way of looking at it.

If only we could run people through a test for 'adulthood' before they could have children.

(I just found who it was: tidal @ 11:21 PM last night - brillo post, mate!)

boob man

September 06, 2007

12:41 PM

Posted by: marcusbondi on September 6, 2007 11:16 AM

Now I am neither a parent nor know many stats on breastfeeding other than I am love breasts.

But I was under the impression that it was the women in the higher socio-economic bracket that chose formula more often. It allows for more freedom (not being tied to the breast feeding schedule), helps prevent seepage for fashion and keeps the twins perkier in the long run. Not to mention the cost of formula. Having said that beyond a deep appreciation for a fantastic part of the female body, I do not have a fact sheet to back this up.

As for being a parent... a number of people have it right. You wing it. I have spoken with mom about this before and she said no matter how many books you read or how much advice you get it is purely on instinct, you just hope you get it right more often than not. As long as you love and support your children while setting some reasonable boundaries the kid "should" turn out alright.

Kudos to my mother and father, they are not perfect parents and I was not a perfect child. But in the end they have raised two well adjusted kids whom they are proud of and are proud of them. As far as I am concerned they made it look easy and if I can do half the job they did I will be going alright.

randomguy

September 06, 2007

12:43 PM

so long suckers

I'm off to Kosciusko where the pine clad ridges raise their torn and rugged battlements on high
and the air is clear as crystal
and the white stars fairly blaze
at midnight in the cold and frosty sky

enjoy the rest of APEC Sammy

Morton RG out

Joli

September 06, 2007

12:48 PM

I'm the single mum of four (God help me)- i love them to death - but they drive me insane..... as they are getting older (the youngest is now 10) - i've come to realise that the children who live in my house are possessed - but only whilst they are within our property boundaries......

Theres "gods gift" - male 16 years old and knows he's good looking, shame that sports hold more interest than school books - also likes to walk around the house wearing as little as possible ..... "witch face" a 13 year old girl - who knows absolutely everything and who will tell me she hates me at every given opportunity - also likes to tell porkies such as "everyone elses mum lets them wear eyeliner and mascara to school" , "gods gift" and "witchface" have two sisters "madam" (could win a gold medal for door slamming) and "feral beryl" (the youngest - spoilt by grandparents - the whole butter wouldnt melt in her mouth bit - yea right!!! - they should try to get her to clean her room!!!!)...

They fight, scream, drinks are measured, size of cake etc etc examined to the milimetre, doing the dishes can turn into WW3, their bedrooms are an absolute disgrace, but this is at home.... out of home.....

"gods gift" plays golf, has 50/60 year old ladies who will put their name down against his to play in a comp - because he is such "a charming young man" ...."witchface" is a beautifully mannered young lady - who is apparently a joy to be around "madam" and "feral beryl" have likewise been described......

so occasionally i feel like i'm doing ok at this job - i don't like them all the time - but they know i love them all the time - i close doors on messy rooms until the floors are two foot under the debris - i have two rules - stay out of my lounge room and try not to kill each other - the neighbours might not appreciate the noise!!!

My advice - to all new parents who are entertaining the thought of a large family - ear defenders - worth their weight in gold and never ever lose your sense of humour - cos if you do - they will grind you into the dust!!!!!!

Danny Diamond

September 06, 2007

12:52 PM

As a father of 3 I have to say that what concerns me is that the mutant Tourette's sufferers seem to be having more an more kids. And the folks who should be having kids are not or waiting till they are 37. Reminds me pf a lyrics from Harvey Danger Song "Flagpole Sitta".....goes something like "been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding the cretins cloning and feeding and i don't even own a tv"

Falco

September 06, 2007

12:54 PM

Posted by: Huskynik on September 6, 2007 11:20 AM

Dead right, as is usually the case.

I'm not sure if it's too much information that's the problem or if it's the fact that most people are unwilling or unable to interpret the information for themselves.
All the so-called information these days comes prepackaged and semi-digested, just simplified versions of someone's opinion.
This is where people go wrong, they read one book on a topic and then consider themselves to be knowledgeable.
They either don't have the time or the inclination to get a second opinion so they can potentially end up walking around believing all sorts of sh*t.

e1eanor

September 06, 2007

12:57 PM

Posted by: Bilby on September 6, 2007 11:45 AM

Re beatings: that sounds a bit rough, Bilby. I don't know really where I stand on physically disciplining children but two whacks a day for no particular reason sounds a bit much. Really?

gaffanaut

September 06, 2007

12:58 PM

One thing that wasn't mentioned in this article that is vitally important is... consistency.

Whatever the rules you should not change them without explaining why to the child & the same rules should apply for all siblings (taking age into consideration of course).

Without consistency kids feel that they can't rely on their parents for stability & are more likely to conceal things from their parents because they don't know how they'll react.

Even if the parents don't agree on something & feel that one parent has made the wrong decision they need to be a united front & discuss it privately. Nothing is more confusing to a child than two parents battling over what is acceptable in front of them.

corgette

September 06, 2007

12:59 PM

hey discipline's disciple
i have the same problem! and i think i've just worked out who you are!!!!

Guy D.

September 06, 2007

01:05 PM

Tourette's runs in my family and I can tell you 1) it is no hindrance to good parenting 2) a miniscule percentage of people with TS actually have the swearing tic and 3) Tourette's sufferers are no more "mutants" than cancer sufferers - both problems have genetic components, but we're all human like (presumably) you.

Ainsley

September 06, 2007

01:19 PM

Posted by: M on September 6, 2007 12:15 PM

You are referring to "wet nurses for adults"?

currygirl

September 06, 2007

01:23 PM

I think the most important thing for parents to do is have fulfilling lives themselves. Parents who obsess over their kids give the kids the impression they have to live up to the ridiculous efforts their parents put in to them, and also are spoilt. Much better happy parents with their own lives as an example to show kids.

I completely agree with the above statement however notice that once parents become grandparents their independent attitude goes out the window. I find with my parents, we were encouraged to be as independent as possible but once my sister had her kids, they have started to treat us like we don't know what we are doing and they will not let us live our own lives and let us raise our own children without their constant input. I wish they would get a hobby or something - their excuse "we are too old" - they are not even 60! This is precisely why I will NOT be having kids.

Discipline's Disciple

September 06, 2007

01:24 PM

And hetero kissing! If there were no hetero kissing you would not exist, DD, you are a direct result of glorious, fantastic man-woman hetero breeder passion love ...." --- marcusbondi on September 6, 2007 12:10 PM

I know accepting that our parents have had sex is supposed to be an important part of growing up, but I spent 18 years in the bedroom right next door to my olds and trust me, they never. Or they broke some sort of record for silence.

Discipline's Disciple

September 06, 2007

01:25 PM

"hey discipline's disciple
i have the same problem! and i think i've just worked out who you are!!!!" --- corgette on September 6, 2007 12:59 PM

I didn't realise it was a secret... does my mum know?

Poopie

September 06, 2007

01:28 PM

"When some idiot with a dick makes an "accident"..."

Thrushy- that "idiot", his name wouldn't be Pappa Thruster would it?

Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan!

M

September 06, 2007

01:29 PM

Ainsley on September 6, 2007 1:19 PM

Yep

tt

September 06, 2007

01:30 PM

Sammy, I reckon if we're self-aware enough to know the good things - and the damage - done by our own families (not just your parents), we're well on the way. Trick is, some of that self-awareness only comes during the actual parenting ... whichever genius said experience is a hard teacher because first it gives the test, then the lesson, should have at least told us there was going to be a quiz.

And while the Freakonomists say it doesn't matter if "the child's mother didn't work between birth and kindergarten" (nice generalisation but I guess they work with what they've got) I'd qualify that: the more time you have at home to instil in your child a sense of right and wrong, and what is acceptable behaviour, the better foundation you can lay. Why do you need that foundation early on? Elsewhere in the book, I'm pretty sure they point out the biggest influencer on your children's behaviour is who they spend the most time with = their peers. And the minute your child hits daycare / kindergarten / school with its conflicting behaviours and influences - from kids *and* teachers - you want them to come home with the moral compass you sent them out with, slightly calibrated by their experience.btw, not saying it is, but if that copy of Freakonomics is mine (via Pablo) bring it in yeh? I need to re-read the chapter on how Superman brought down the Klan ...

Welcome to WA, where a West Coast Eagles jersey and tracksuit pants is your "good clothes".

Econometrica

September 06, 2007

01:35 PM

Levitt and Dubner - Problems with the Modelling

The degree of multicollinearity particularly between the following explainatory variables is very high:

Matters: The child has highly educated parents.
Doesn't: The child's family is intact.

Matters: The child's mother was thirty or older at the time of her first child's birth
Doesn't: The child's mother didn't work between birth and kindergarten.

Matters: The child has many books in their home.
Doesn't: The child's parents read to them nearly every day.

Therefore Levitt and Dubners models are not statistically robust and will be unable to predict reliably across numerous sample vectors.

Bilby

September 06, 2007

01:38 PM

Posted by: randomguy on September 6, 2007 12:43 PM

And where around the Overflow the reed beds sweep and sway
To the breezes, and the rolling plains are wide,
The man from Snowy River is a household word today,
And the stockmen tell the story of his ride.

I'm jealous RG. Have a great time :-)

Posted by: e1eanor on September 6, 2007 12:57 PM

She didn't actually do that, although she was a fan of the wooden spoon. The angriest she EVER got was one day when she wacked me and the spoon broke. I burst into laughter and she came the closest to losing it I've ever seen ;-)

Mystery

September 06, 2007

01:38 PM

What matters is the term we called compromise,it works on my 27 years married life with three grown up kids or what we called kidults. Tolerance, less anger reaction and keep calm in avoiding any severe miscommunications. The trademark of being a Good Parent, tolerant,firm,and always looked at the bright side of life.

Ainsley

September 06, 2007

01:40 PM

Posted by: Discipline's Disciple on September 6, 2007 1:24 PM

Well I think we can predict with certainty that they did at least once..

Mystery

September 06, 2007

01:41 PM

What matters is the term we called compromise,it works on my 27 years married life with three grown up kids or what we called kidults. Tolerance, less anger reaction and keep calm in avoiding any severe miscommunications. The trademark of being a Good Parent, tolerant,firm,and always looked at the bright side of life.

morgan

September 06, 2007

01:45 PM

what makes a perfect parent?

one that is out of town a lot an leaves carkeys behind.

Stormy

September 06, 2007

01:47 PM

Posted by: Bilby on September 6, 2007 12:02 PM

Thanks Bilby, you put that much more nicely than I would have. seeing the woman you love in tears,suffering from something you just cannot help them with is easily the worst experience I have ever been through in my life. And I thought it was bad watching her in labor...

Marcus I am beginning to suspect we have different views on life the universe and everything, but please stop calling me a fascist. I do own the odd black shirt, but I have never deposed the King of Italy, invaded Ethiopia, or attempted to make Italian trains run on time. Nor have I been rescued from confinement at the top of a mountain by a crack SS detachment.

I would of course like to respond in kind by making assertions about your significant other, but I don't know if you're left or right handed.

As for this notion that having been a child entitles you to express opinions about parenting, well of course you are fully entitled to express an opinion about anything, just like everyone else (see, that wasn't very fascistic of me). The weight which others afford your opinions is of course a matter of their own opinion. I will just say that nothing, nothing at all- having been a child, being around children, the incredible amount of pre-natal information you are provided with, family/friend shared experiences, prepares you in any way shape or form for what it is like when you have one of your own and how you will feel. The knowledge side of things is completely seperate to the emotional reality, and when you know you are responsible 24/7 for a helpless little human being, it fundamentally changes the way you look at things, the way you behave...everything changes.

Thank you to Moongirl and Nick Carroway too.

Poopie

September 06, 2007

01:48 PM

Posted by: Econometrica on September 6, 2007 1:35 PM

Well jeez, thanks for that Captain Obvious. You just had to go and "say" what everone else was thinking, didn't you?

Sheeesh- there's one in every crowd!

corgette

September 06, 2007

01:48 PM

didn't realise it was a secret... does my mum know?

* Posted by: Discipline's Disciple on September 6, 2007 1:25 PM

hmm - maybe you're not who i think you are... but then aagain... who is??

so serryce - no comment back on the fact that you smacked someone else's child? sure it takes a village and all that - but if everyone in the village assumed the role of physical discipline.....
sounds like a mini model of the u.s foreign policy and look how well that works!

Emperor of Pellucidar

September 06, 2007

01:52 PM

Posted by: Bilby on September 6, 2007 12:02 PM

I am the father of 2 children.

Although our preference was to breastfeed, we had to bottle feed one for medical reasons.

I still think that breast is best - in most cases - and will not judge anyone who prefers to bottlefeed.

Posted by: D.E.X on September 6, 2007 12:37 PM

Thanks D.E.X. for correcting my spelling, can you now go back and check the grammar in your own posts. ;-)

I agree that baby sitting gives you an idea of what parenting will be like, just like school gives you an idea of what work will be like.

Miss B

September 06, 2007

01:53 PM

As I am not a parent I guess I can't comment on how to do it, but I was lucky enough to have a great set of parents. Of course, according to some people (who have never met me) I'm psychologically scarred for life seeing as my mother was a lesbian. But I was the only one of out of my group of friends who never hated my parents. And I mean that. Never. Sure my second Mum was a bit psycho when it came to going out with friends (think of having to put the phone number of everyone I was associating with, plus parents numbers on the fridge, if I was 5 minutes late getting home, angry phone calls would ensue) but she was always fair. We were always taught to love each other, to respect each other, and if you had an argument with anyone sulking was strictly not allowed, you were cornered by the family until someone got you to laugh.

The strangest thing for me as growing up was that other families were never as physical in their feelings as mine was. Nobody I knew ever saw their parents being affectionate, and one of my happiest memories of my parents was when Mum came home from a really bad day at work, and Mum2 took one look at her and dropped everything to give her a hug. My two parents standing in the middle of the dining room, not saying anything, just holding each other. Then it turned into a family hug and the night continued as usual.

It's not the sex of your parents. There is no right and wrong in parenting. It's just respect and love and knowing that no matter how bad you f@!k up, someone's got your back. If they want to read they'll read, if they want to play games they'll do that too. Everyone is different regardless of whether they were brought up the same as someone or not.

Emperor of Pellucidar

September 06, 2007

01:55 PM

Maybe he was IVF!

marlin

September 06, 2007

01:55 PM

Not sure how this turned into a breastfeeding blog but I believe the reason why so many third world cultures have a high use of formulas (formulae?) over breast feeding is that it is a status symbol, showing you are wealthy enough to buy formula rather than falling back on the free option of breastfeeding. It is something that aid workers have to battle with day in day out, trying to change this perception, but they are battling huge marketing budgets too.

earth angel

September 06, 2007

01:59 PM

Moongirl, I wish you were my mum :-)

I'm not a parent, so I really like what the parents on here have posted about their experiences. I do have quite a few "don'ts" that I will be following if I ever have kids:

* never compare siblings, particularly when only one is compared unfavourably

* never leave your husband for another man in the middle of a BBQ your children are attending

* never make fun of one child's first driving experience, while praising the other's, despite them both making the same mistakes

* never tell your 13 year old daughter, who already feels out of place for achieving full grown adult height in a less-than-petite bone structure, that she will never get a boyfriend as she's too fat and ugly

* never scold your child for only getting 97% in a maths test by asking what happenened to the other 3%

* don't leave your diary open on the kitchen bench which describes how you had to make a choice between your new husband and your kids - and he won

_________________

Wow. Sorry for the spill. Feeling weirdly happy and sad all at the same time. I forgave my parents for being human, but I can never forget. My brother and I turned out ok, for the most part, and I'm closer to him than anyone in the world due to shared experiences and a mutual love and respect for each other. Every cloud has a silver lining :-)

rocky

September 06, 2007

02:06 PM

Posted by: Thursty on September 6, 2007 12:37 PM

God you really are an unpleasant little shite aren't you? As far as I can see Wilow seems like a pleasant guy who is a PARENT and therefore entitled to give his opinion about kids. I have no kids yet so I am not going to give an opinion today except to say, that my parents are great and I have a good relationship with them cos we both treated each other with respect to the others' values.

You obviously on the other hand must have been raised in a pig farm, making nasty comments and harsh criiticisms whenever it takes your fancy.

Grow up ya turd! And yeah the nasty comment was warranted after your unprovoked attack on Wilow.

Also matey, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do us all a favour and wear condoms for if and when you do have sex. We don't want any of your sprogs running around.

Econometrica

September 06, 2007

02:09 PM

Well jeez, thanks for that Captain Obvious. You just had to go and "say" what everone else was thinking, didn't you?...Posted by: Poopie on September 6, 2007 1:48 PM

I am glad i'm not alone Poopie!

Moreover I find Levitts attempt to discredit child rearing experts (who say breast is better than bottle, or sleep baby on back vs front) the hieght of epistemic arrogance, or worse ignorance, or both.

johno

September 06, 2007

02:14 PM

Nellie raised something that I find confronting to myself as a parent. She wants her kid/s to be "resilient", able to pick themselves up after a knock-down. But what if they aren't resilient? What if they're the kids who really struggle when there's even wry well-mannered teasing, what if they're still crying if they fall over - and don't hurt themselves - and they're getting toward like 9 or 10?

What if all you want is to have your kids starting to show respect for others and respect for themselves - and they're just selfish tonks with low self-esteemt?

What if you just want them to be basically healthy, to run around, say, and get a reasonable amount of exercise but you never seem to be able to persuade them? And forcing them to, or dragging them off on bushwalks - or whatever - just gets their backs up?

What if you just wanted them to be literate - or to do the HSC - or to enjoy music - or to have the occasional laugh with you - and you're starting to realise that it isn't happening that way?

(Some of this is me, some of it is other parents I've observed.)

In other words, what if your bottom line, the one thing you want, isn't being approached? That to me is the parent's dilemma.

e1eanor

September 06, 2007

02:15 PM

multicollinearity

noun
a case of multiple regression in which the predictor variables are themselves highly correlated

:- means that the study is flawed, like all studies except the ones that show that men are all fascistic farty-pants.

e1 x

Bilby

September 06, 2007

02:16 PM

I agree that baby sitting gives you an idea of what parenting will be like, just like school gives you an idea of what work will be like. - Posted by: Emperor of Pellucidar on September 6, 2007 1:52 PM

Not really ;-) When I was coaching little kids I'd get comments from their parents like "You're so patient with them". Of course I bloody well was. After training, I sent them all home and went and crashed on the couch ;-)

Chewbacca

September 06, 2007

02:19 PM

Breastfeeding.

I breastfed my babies for just over a year each. Much much easier than the bottle - eventually!

Baby #1 was 7 weeks prem and very very sick. I was advised very strongly to breast feed him. It was hard work to start with. Let me explain:

1. I have *very* sensitive skin. By the second feed, my nipples felt like they had been sandpapered. They went on to crack and bleed before it all settled down (several weeks).

2. I *over-produced*. ie, I had way way too much milk.

Back then (19 years ago), they had things called 'milk banks' to which I contributed!

As a result of the over production, I also got Mastitis.

For those that don't know, getting mastitis severely produces similar symptoms to having a serious case of the flu, with the additional pain of breasts that are agonisingly painful to the point where each feed meant many tears.

Baby #2 was 4 weeks prem, but quite healthy, other than underweight.

Same problems - 8 years down the track.

I persevered with # 1, cause I had good reason to. Baby was sick, breast was the best possible outcome for him.

Baby # 2, I knew the pain woul dbe gone within a couple of weeks, so I put up with it.

Now, on the positive side, once the bad bits had settled down, I found that breastfeeding was the *best* experience! I loved it! I could feed anywhere, anytime. I learned how to increase and decrease my milk supply as needed, and boy, was it easy for the night feeds.

I could not have gotten through the first child breastfeeding, however, if it was not for the excellent support I got from both a private lactation specialist and the nursing mothers association.

I do believe that this support is just not there/affordable for a lot of women, so the very real problems associated with breastfeeding become insurmountable, coupled with post partum 'blues' which sometimes develop into full blown post partum depression.

In other words, it is not easy or natural for a lot of women. Couple that with additional problems of a baby who is not a good 'latcher' (my two WERE very good at latching on - that was the one thing that made it manageable) and yes, there are a large percentage of women who cannot manage to breastfeed.

The other issue that comes in also, is that some women simply cannot emotionally handle breastfeeding. There may be a number of good reasons for that, for example, one of my friends was sexually abused by a family member for years and her breasts were one of the target areas. She simply could not stand ANYONE touching her breasts.

My point?

Give support and encouragement where you can. Help her to choose breastfeeding (it is best for baby).

But please do NOT judge a woman who chooses not to breastfeed as a bad mother.

dad all at sea

September 06, 2007

02:21 PM

as the father of 3 year old twins, one a boy and the other a girl, I can clearly see the incredible individuality present from the moment of birth. Obviously it's impossible for any parent to define where their own influence stops and innate characterisitics of the child begin. I found many interesting points in your article Sam, and of course your intent is to promote thought and discussion. For me, though, there is still no total clarity (a very unrealistic expectation indeed) and a couple of points made by Levitt are a good example. I see that he found it of no importance to academic perfomance that children might watch a lot of television, and yet also found it of great importance that children grow up in a house with many books. I would suggest that walking past a loaded bookshelf everyday enroute to the TV, means the books are doing diddly for a child, but conversely anytime a child is reading, you can be sure they are not watching TV. Not a big jump then to suggesting that reducing TV watching and increasing book reading might be a good thing. That would certainly be parental influence making a mark. Just one thought out of many...

Cancer runs in *my* family, Guy D., and I am deeply offended at your suggestion that Tourette's Syndrome is even in the same league as a devastating disease like cancer.
Did Tourette's take away both of your grandfathers before you got a chance to know them?
Are you going to die early from Tourette's?
Didn't think so.
Well cancer did that me and I'll most likely die of it too before I reach 60 years old.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Seriously Guy, can you see how boring the outraged/offended post is?
Boring, boring biscuits.

Everyone has their cross to bear, get over it, get a sense of humour and do something with your life other than taking offense where clearly none was meant.

Homer

September 06, 2007

02:28 PM

Unless you've done it for yourself, you can have no idea. Raising children can be a high to beat any other high, or it can leave you a quiverring mess in the corner, playing with razor blades. Sometimes you get both of those at once.

Kids never turn out like you expect - Lisa was dux of her year each year, went to uni, but is still bumming around Wollongong without a full-time job. But she's happy. Bart, despite heaps of encouragement and extra tuition, came bottom of every subject, every year EXCEPT if there was a computer involved in the subject, when he came top of that class. He now has a great job in the computer geek section of the Customs Dept. Going on school results, I honestly expected it to be the other way around.

From what I saw of their friends as they grew up, if you haven't instilled a decent base of rules, manners, respect etc. by the time they start school, you're in for a rough ride. I spent every weekend doing something with them as they grew up, and I think that's probably the best investment I could have made in them (and for them).

Discipline is important too, I always believed in a smack when all else failed. You just can't reason with a 2 year old. Providing you are very aware of the line which separates discipline from abuse there shouldn't be a problem.

At the end of the day, they're your kids, you do the very best you can given you're circumstances, and anyone who wants to tell you you're doing it wrong can take a flying leap.

P.S. It's nice to see an expert like Thursty, with all his years of child-raising experience, drop by to let us know where we're all going wrong.

Huskynik

September 06, 2007

02:34 PM

Posted by: Mali on September 6, 2007 10:55 AM

I took my nephew to his baseball game when he was 9. He was fielding on second base, fiddling around in the dirt and missed catching a ball. When he came off to bat, I told him that he let his team down because he was goofing off. The coach abused me because apparently we don't speak to kids negatively. I told him he was my nephew and I wasn't going to lie to him and tell him he was playing well when he wasn't.

Posted by: Bilby on September 6, 2007 11:11 AM

You have a very relaxed household, Bilby. At what age do you expect them to remain fully clothed? I have permanant retina-scarring courtesy of my father who used to have no shame about walking around the house starkers. When I was in my teens.

That's not nearly so bad as my work colleague though. His 18 year old daughter's boyfriend had stayed over for the night. Next morning, my colleague woke up, went into the rumpus room where the boyfriend was already awake, and plonked down next to him on the lounge and proceeded to shoot the breeze. Yes, my colleague was naked, and couldn't understand why several of us thought it was a little creepy.

Posted by: Thursty on September 6, 2007 12:37 PM

You forgot the rule I have in my house. If you need to use the bathroom and can't aim straight, sit down.

Posted by: serryce on September 6, 2007 12:41 PM

I'm not buying into the smacking vs smacking debate; it's just something that I've never felt I've had to do where other people's children are concerned. I do know that a lot of anti-smackers believe it sends the child a message that hitting when you are angry is OK. I tend to agree. You're the adult in this equation, and as soon as you hit someone, you've lost the fight.

Posted by: Joli on September 6, 2007 12:48 PM

My mother was stricter with my siblings and me. If we didn't clean up when instructed, our belongings were thrown out. Fortunately this didn't extend to the bedroom very often though, but elsewhere in the house was a daily threat and promise.

She also told us when we were fighting to get outside because if we were intent on killing each other there would be less mess for her to clean up. I recall several occasions where those involved in the fight were booted out the back door by mum, whereupon she would lock the back door. Presumably until we were quiet. Or dead.

Posted by: Falco on September 6, 2007 12:54 PM

We have information overload. I call it Newton's Psychological Law of Reciprocal Actions: for every psychological explanation, there is an equal and opposite explanation.
Sure, there are people who don't interpret the information correctly, but they have 8 different theories to choose from too. Then they start questioning their ability as a parent / lover / friend / dog owner because they convince themselves that they're unworthy due to whichever pop psychology book has recently made the best-seller list that is telling them they've got it wrong.

Posted by: Ainsley on September 6, 2007 1:40 PM

No you can't. His mother might have been a turkey-baster devotee.

Mali

September 06, 2007

02:39 PM

Posted by: wilow on September 6, 2007 12:01 PM

'anyone can in fact be anything they want....as long as they are prepared to do all the things it takes to be what they want.'

What I was suggesting is that instead of blindly/naively assuming that hard work always pays off, I suggest that people need to be upfront with themselves (and their kids) about their talents/abilities, and understand what opportunities are out there realistically for them, so they dont waste their time and confidence on false hopes. A lot of people work very hard and will do absolutely everything to reach a particular goal. It's a competitive world out there which I think is a healthy mentality to instil in our kiddies.

But it would be mentally questionable to assume that I can set myself any goal (say, being a professional hand-bell player, for which I have no natural talent but once held serious high hopes for) and with a little bit of love from mummy, elbow grease and cheap favours I will pull it off.

Moongirl

September 06, 2007

02:40 PM

Levitt and Dubners models are not statistically robust and will be unable to predict reliably across numerous sample vectors.

Posted by: Econometrica on September 6, 2007 1:35 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah.... Tell that to the mother of your children when she's sleep deprived and dealing with the five o'clock witching hour being aurally assualted by a screaming child throwing a tantrum of seismic proportions, while trying to dress a slippery 18mth eel who insists on running around naked whilst smearing the remains of dinner on the dog.

Your robust statistical analysis should be a perfect match for the projectile vomit of a two year old that is one day headed your way, matched only by the scornful berating from your wife and the cessation of all conjugal rights. To the couch with you immediately. Come back to us when you land in the Real World.

The Old Guy

September 06, 2007

02:42 PM

I have two teenagers, 17 and 14 who have recently "expressed themselves" over the telephone telling me I have ruined their lives. I will go up and see them next week, repeat my written apology which the eldest called a bit of shit. So to all and sundry I have obviously failed in the eyes of my children.

I am the eldest of 7 and my ex the youngest of 5. My family was a loving one, with the usual fights that take place in a house of 5 boys and two girls in 4 bedrooms. Dad died when I was 17 so the input from him was brief, but much more brief for the youngest who was 1. We had an extended family with cousins (24), aunts and uncles, some grandparents and great uncles and great aunts.

My ex grew up in a family of violence from an alcoholic father, and has suffered mental illness that runs in her family. In the words of G Gordon Liddy's "Will" I made a terible choice of wife which haunts me to this day. I stuck it out for 11 years, 7 of it with the children. I shared custody of them for a further 6 years, clearly not enough.

I have loved my children from the minute they were born (and before). They are different, one intellectual, one sporting, but I do love them both. The "perfect" daughter has turned into a lying harpy.

To would be parents, don't be afraid, it is a journey. At the present I'm in the swamp and up to my neck. There are bits where the going is easy, the going is tiring and occasionally you get to see the great vistas ahead.

Don't be the charming parent I saw on one holiday with my children telling her 4 year old:
"Don't you know Renee, life's a bitch and then you die."

Don't be the parent who feeds their own ego, by giving their children everything they want or think they want. Christmas is only one day of the year, not 365. Good parenting is not measured by the latest designer gear. It is measured by love. Love means you have to say "No" sometimes.

As for punishment, telling Tommy to stop doing that doesn't always work, after about 2 times "the foot of ignorance to the seat of knowledge" or a light tap on the bum. If Tommy is running and looks like going under the latest 4wd a real yell helps to stop them in their tracks so you can grab them before they end up under the Desert Duellers.

As for the tantrum in the supermarket, if they won't stay in the trolley or the trolley is too full and the other parent is not there with the second trolley with the child then an impression of Ian Thorpe doing dry breaststroke on the floor is not too bad as long as you don't feed it. I found with my brothers and my son that ignoring it and saying "goodbye" keep on walking and turning the corner and letting them lose sight improved response quickly. Of course you have to wait at the end of the aisle for him/her to catch up.

By the same token, along with the Christmas analogy, good behaviour should be praised, but there is no need for a treat at every shopping trip, otherwise they do expect it 365/24/7.

Tell them that you love them, even when they tell you they hate you and you hate what they are doing.

As Dad said, "they're angels when they are asleep."

When you do become grandparents, remember you can always hand them back and the children might remember you were not the bad parent they thought you were.

Keep trying and don't be afraid to be a parent. Otherwise none of us would be here.

Anyone with a spare scuba tank or a surfaplane could push it my direction at the moment, I need the air and floatation.

Valentino Rossi

September 06, 2007

02:43 PM

Posted by: Econometrica on September 6, 2007 1:35 PM

What complete twaddle.

multicollinearity Noun 1.- a case of multiple regression in which the predictor variables are themselves highly correlated

1. I have not seen any studies that showed any significant correlation between education and divorce rate (although there is a correlation between education and likelihood to choose to marry vs cohabitate).

Post a citation to back it up.

2. Correlation between age of mother and likelihood of being a stay at home mum ?

Again, back it up. There's no intuitive correlation and I've not seen any study that showed any clear relationship between age and likelihood of staying at home (however studies *do* show a correlation between education levels and likelihood of staying at home)

3. This is the only one I think you *might* have a case. However I would suggest its weak. Making books available doesn't imply that the parent makes time to read to them.

Urban Jungle

September 06, 2007

02:54 PM

A couple of comments I would like to respond to.

Breast feeding. Both my kids were breast fed for a few months and both times I made my wife stop doing it and put them on a bottle. One reason was me being selfish eg me wanting to get up in the middle of the night and have them all to myself as it was the only time I saw them awake. The other was both of my kids were very demanding and basically were running my wife into the ground. My eldest wanted feeding every two hours so you can imagine the strain on wifey only having half hour naps 24/7 for 12 weeks. I really think breast feeding should be based on what is best for the mum. If she is happy so are the kids.

The other thing is smacking. I smack my kids. Always have but only for the majorous (new word) of major thing. Its the last resort after everything else has failed. I smack them on the bum. One smack really hard. As hard as they could handle without damage for there age. If they have really pissed me off and I am shitty I send them to their room so I can cool off before I smack them. Just sounds like a good idea to me as I have a pretty short wick. So toddler got a 2 finger, 15yr old gets a strap as one he can actually feel it and two it would break my hand if I used that. At 13 and 15 I reckon they get wacked about 1 - 2 times a year. Ha last year I even smacked my stepson and he is twenty. The look on his face was priceless. But hey he said sorry to his mum and all was good and pissed himself laughing after it all as he couldn't remember the last time I wacked him. He did remember the wack he got when he pushed a girl over and that was when he was 9ish.

Never smacked them on the hand or any place else for that matter as I read once that a toddlers hand is very sensitive and very easily damaged. Something about nerves. Had a brief look around the NET but couldn't find anything to support this.

domingo

September 06, 2007

02:55 PM

Joli,1248
You have got it in one.
Perfect parenting does not exist. As the father of two sometimes extremely bolshie 19 yr old boys as well as the stepfather of 3 girls who at various points in their lives would make your "feral beryl" & "witch face" sound like angels I know exactly what you mean! What I do know is that for all the bolshieness at home we bumble along as best we can encouraging,cajoling & if we're lucky as it seems thee & me are, end up with nice ,charming ,well mannered young men & women.
Cheers
Domingo

nelly

September 06, 2007

02:56 PM

I really wish my youngest sister wanted to change the world! Or, at least, her habits. What a slob!
• Posted by: serryce on September 6, 2007 12:41 PM

My point exactly. You have more conservative standards than your sister. She just wants to change the world so that her habits are the accepted norm!
Sorry, APEC lunch…

marcusbondi

September 06, 2007

03:05 PM

Posted by: Thursty on September 6, 2007 12:37 PM

I actually agree with you heaps on this one Thurst; like in Sam's post - re drooling fools with kids - as though they are in any way qualified in anything, let alone properly raising life on the planet.

Stormy - so by your logic, a drug injecting alcoholic pedophile who beats his/her kids is more qualified to talk/lecture about parenthood than a school teacher who became a pediatric doctor with 30 years' experience in child/adult welfare and psychology, who happens not to have kids...?!?!?- dude, you need to get more sleep!

The mere fact you have kids proves nothing about character or knowledge, other than the fact that you didn't use a condom. Having a kid is the most serious, lifelong commitment possible, Stormy, seems to me, from your own admissions, that you didn't know that 7 weeks ago....

Of course, good on you for doing it, & I wish you and your family only the best, cheers.

Ophelia

September 06, 2007

03:05 PM

Im starting to question what jkind of people read and contribute to this blog...

But your claim about breastfeeding is just wrong: 3rd world countries have very high levels of breastfeeding - maybe it would help to check UN stats, and get off your overfed overwiped Eastern burbs lily white ass and check out this third world!

Breast is best - glad we all agree on that one.
But don;t be hard on mums who can;t manage it. I've heard new mums say it can be more painful than childbirth...
I personally can;t wait - apparantly its better than orgasm.

Thursty

September 06, 2007

03:13 PM

Posted by: Poopie on September 6, 2007 1:28 PM

Do i hassle your parents? Have the balls to hassle me and not my parents you coward.

marcusbondi

September 06, 2007

03:18 PM

good one Morgs!

M

September 06, 2007

03:19 PM

The Old Guy on September 6, 2007 2:42 PM

I am so sorry to hear that your children are saying things like that to you. Sometime I think that teenagers torture their parents on purpose to test the strength of their parents.

I recall saying similar things to my mother when I was 15 and have apologised profusely for doing so.

They will get over it. If they think their life is ruined at 17 they should wait until they get to 30 before making those assertions. It could get a whole lot better or it could get a whole lot worse.

I wish you the best of luck with them next week.

M

September 06, 2007

03:21 PM

The Old Guy on September 6, 2007 2:42 PM

If all else fails just throw yourself on the ground and throw a tantrum a 3 year old would be proud of.

You know, kicking, screaming, crying and then throw a few of their things to make a point.

Bilby

September 06, 2007

03:29 PM

Posted by: johno on September 6, 2007 2:14 PM

One of the most important things I realised early on is that kids are born with their personality intact. You have to work with what you've got. No-one taught my daughter to love shoes, but once she got a new pair when she could only just speak, and she sat their, feet outstretched, saying "ooohhh shoes" for about 10 minutes ;-)

Posted by: Urban Jungle on September 6, 2007 2:54 PM

I completely understand where you're coming from with the bottle feeding. I really felt left out when I couldn't feed bubs, but I think that had more to do with unrealistic expectations. I've posted before on the subject of "man as support crew" in the early months and years. Clearly we're not nearly as good as women at being altruistic (or is it pragmatic? can't be sure).

Posted by: marcusbondi on September 6, 2007 3:05 PM

You can never know what it's like to have a kid until you have one. It's just one of those things in life that you think you know, but when it happens to you it's completely mind blowing. As the first of my mates to have a kid I tried to explain what it was like, but until they had their own they really didn't understand.

Glen Quagmire

September 06, 2007

03:30 PM

too often parents fail to see that they are the guardians of an extant CHILD and not a future brain surgeon, investment banker, president, whatever.

the very premise of the questions asked by these studies is flawed.

'what should i do to give my kids the best chance of 'success?' implies not only that the parents must accept a narrow range of lifestyle outcomes as acceptable, but also that the child's character should necessarily be transmuted into their own, or indeed anything beyond its nature.

the examples of this behaviour as listed above are only the extreme and hillarious ones. but they are just extensions of the day-to-day panic of any parent who seeks to raise a future adult, not a happy child.

i was raised in this environment and it didn't work. my own bad decisions led to personal failure and a lot besides. but it was the idea that when i looked at my parents and saw only a stack of bills and sacrifices that were wasted on the lump i see in the mirror every day that ultimately drove me to depression and close to the unthinkable.

the actual circumstances of my own life were never really that bad. nothing to be proud of, but nothing to be alarmed by either.

it's only recently that i've been able to shed this baggage, and, i don't think co-incidentally, as they have been divorced and had to focus on their own problems.

I now have two parents who are like good friends, and it's the only time in my life we've shared a healthy relationship.

Pressure-parenting has been lamented in the entertainment industry since pre-hollywood days.
it's time for the practice to be abandoned everywhere.

build a happy, self-motivated and interested child and the rest will follow. build a stressed-out embodiment of society's expectations and dysfunction will inevitably find a way to manifest.

Eric um-Bist

September 06, 2007

03:40 PM

Born young, parents for role-models I was beaten, sliiperred, belted, slapped upside the head, used to put comics down my pants but to no avail. My dad incarcerated in a loony bin for a couple of my formative teenage years. But look at me now! handsome, intelligeent, wqell-adjsted, my own sense of moral code. I am me and he is me and self-made am i as he as you him or me and you think that I am well made: well-hung, ha ha for that you will have to come closert young lady. Pray do tell my careers pereson said to me at school "what do you want to do young man" and said I "errr, I have no idea, how about I become an accountant if I cant become an astronaut" An accountant I did become for a while but I got bored and become a hitman for a while instead which was better paid. Though I do believe now that a paretn should make their kiddle-winkles have exposure to many areas of art s and science; music, painting, running jumping, throwing discus, mathematical arithmetic, miming, singing, acting, writing and so you get it the picture i think and soo where indeed the aptitude and the actitude of the progeny lueth or lieth, ly-sth, lie-eth

HotChick

September 06, 2007

03:41 PM

IMO the way you parent is greatly affected by the way you were parented, one way or another. There is an ad on telly at the moment showing kids mimicing the poor behaviours of their parents - bashing mum, etc.

I was raised with strong values and morals (but no organised religion) and I think it served me well.

The other thing that stands out for me is my parents instilling in me a sense of pride about our family and where we had come from - a legacy to respect and live up to.

Dad used to make us take family car trips (on Sundays mostly) and these are some of my favourite childhood memories now - that and singing together out on the front verandah when it was too hot to sleep.

Bottom line: parents should make sure their kids know they give a crap about them. Being happy is good, but not essential.

Poopie

September 06, 2007

03:45 PM

Posted by: Poopie on September 6, 2007 1:28 PM

Do i hassle your parents? Have the balls to hassle me and not my parents you coward.

Posted by: Thursty on September 6, 2007 3:13 PM

You're right Thrusher- please accept my humblestest apolomogies; I should not have had a shot at your parents, particularly as no-one (including you) actually knows who they are.

Whyte_Wolf

September 06, 2007

03:45 PM

If only we could run people through a test for 'adulthood' before they could have children.

Posted by: serryce on September 6, 2007 12:41 PM

Ahhh the test... and then that begs the question, "Who will decide the questions?"

There isn't a right or wrong, but if the message is respect and unconditional love, then you've got all of your life to impart that message to your children.

Most importantly of all, listen to your children as part of that respect.. once we start thinking for ourselves, holding onto a position of moral correctness only leads to annoyance and argument.

Moongirl

September 06, 2007

03:46 PM

Posted by: Econometrica on September 6, 2007 1:35 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah..... tell that to a harrassed parent during the five o'clock witching hour when one toiddler is throwing a tantrum of seismic proportions on the kitchen floor, and the other darling is running around naked and smearing the dog with the remains of his dinner.

No doubt your acturarial skills will equip you to deal with the projectile vomit no doubt headed your way from your blessed babies. That and the scorn heaped on you my your exhausted and sleep-deprived wife no doubt. Go sleep on the couch you silly man. Come back to us when you have arrived in the Real World.

L

September 06, 2007

03:46 PM

I enjoyed the book, too.

Didn't Freakonomics also draw a conclusion that one of the main reasons for a decline in inner-city crime rates during the late 90's was the decriminalisation and subsequent availability of abortion services?

There wasn't much correlation between findings of the different chapters in the book, but maybe those women seeking abortions then, were not of high socio-economic status, well educated, or wealthy enough to eat well so the kids weren't under weight at birth.

I do like books that make you think ...

Moongirl

September 06, 2007

03:46 PM

Posted by: Econometrica on September 6, 2007 1:35 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah..... tell that to a harrassed parent during the five o'clock witching hour when one toiddler is throwing a tantrum of seismic proportions on the kitchen floor, and the other darling is running around naked and smearing the dog with the remains of his dinner.

No doubt your acturarial skills will equip you to deal with the projectile vomit no doubt headed your way from your blessed babies. That and the scorn heaped on you my your exhausted and sleep-deprived wife no doubt. Go sleep on the couch you silly man. Come back to us when you have arrived in the Real World.

Bilby

September 06, 2007

03:55 PM

A question for y'all. I used to be an avid reader of the letters page, but since coming to the blog I hardly open the paper. I just can't read the letters without commenting, it's too frustrating ;-) Has this happened to anyone else?

nelly

September 06, 2007

03:55 PM

• Posted by: johno on September 6, 2007 2:14 PM

I know what you mean. I have personally picked resilience as the one thing I want for them. Doesn’t mean they have it. If only I can find out how to teach it! The other thing I was keen on is reading, if they love reading and find it easy then they can perform to the limit of their ability in all subject (even in maths you need to read and comprehend the question). If they choose not to perform to their limits that is their choice. Luckily they are all bookworms so that one is in the bag.

• Posted by: earth angel on September 6, 2007 1:59 PM

So sorry to hear that. And example of extreme cruelty. How is your relationship with her now? Can you understand why she did what she did with so little thought for you?

Advice to new parents or parents-to-be. Make a list or recording of your beliefs and opinions on child rearing. It makes for some seriously funny times a few years down the track when you stumble across it again and can hear your younger self, full of good intentions and high ideals. It is also a good reality check for how you have changed.

Emperor of Pellucidar

September 06, 2007

04:07 PM

Posted by: marcusbondi on September 6, 2007 3:05 PM

Ask the pediatric doctor with 30 years' experience in child/adult welfare and psychology if his opinions changed after he has kids?

Your argument is a bit like saying that because you have spent 3 years reading books about welding and watching people weld that you are an expert welder even though you have never picked up a welding rod in your life.

I am not saying that your argument is without merit, I am just saying that someone who is a parent has a better chance of knowing what they are talking about than someone who has just read a blog for a couple of hours.

boof

September 06, 2007

04:16 PM

Posted by: Bilby on September 6, 2007 3:55 PM

absolutely. not to mention the fact that they are reacting to a story, or replying to a letter, of a day or two ago. far too slow in this day and age.

mnermner

September 06, 2007

04:21 PM

nelly on September 6, 2007 3:55 PM

On resilience - when he was seven, Richard Branson's mum left him in a field, several miles from home, and told him to make his own way home. She thinks it made him realise he could overcome any difficulty. Might not be such a good idea nowadays, but setting up similar, less risky tasks might help.

wilow

September 06, 2007

04:30 PM

Posted by: rocky on September 6, 2007 2:06 PM ....cheers Rocky, but dont worry too much - I was a bit taken aback at that comment as well until I saw who posted it....Thruster is such a troll...and a fairly dense one at that - but he is entitled to his opinion no matter how baseless it may be.

At least he is congruent....he seems as flawed as his arguments which puts him in good company here.

*filial brap*

And just in case I miss you lot tomorrow, the wilow fam are off to noosa for a week of R&R....

Stormy

September 06, 2007

04:36 PM

"Stormy - so by your logic, a drug injecting alcoholic pedophile who beats his/her kids is more qualified to talk/lecture about parenthood than a school teacher who became a pediatric doctor with 30 years' experience in child/adult welfare and psychology, who happens not to have kids...?!?!?- dude, you need to get more sleep!"

Marcus, I do indeed need to get more sleep. Let me know when you come across this exemplar of parenting knowledge and I'll be happy to listen to his views. In case I have missed your point, I am not saying that people who don't have children can't have opinions about what it's like to have children. I don't have a vagina but I can have an opinion on what it might be like.

I have never said that me having a child says anything about my character or knowledge (if anything it has confirmed that I need to work a lot on the latter). You have assumed that I chose not to use a condom (for all you know I might not have been able to because they don't make them in my size) and I think someone earlier referred to an "accident". As it happens yes it was intentional although not "planned" in the sense of people who draw up ovulation rosters, having been together 9 years we figured it was time to get our act together rather than just having all that brilliant sex for the fun of it. And I was, and am, well aware it is the most serious commitment possible...

I am however very concerned here, you didn't insult me and I haven't insulted you, I think that's a first for any exchange of views between us on this blog. I think I better go out and get drunk this evening and have a good look at myself in the mirror (the one behind the bar).

Enjoy your APEC Friday, fellow Sydneysiders...

Joli

September 06, 2007

04:41 PM

Cheers Domingo...... love and humour are the only way to deal with any child .... though "witch face" sure knows how to push buttons - i'm sure she will win an oscar one day lol... I believe that all any parent can ask for is that their children end up respecting others - one day i hope they even love each other!!!!!

Besides i'm not that old that i don't remember hating my brother with a passion - doing all i could to get him in as much trouble with our parents as possible - 20 years on he is my best friend - what more can parents ask??

Good luck with your tribe!!

Discipline's Disciple

September 06, 2007

04:46 PM

Ahhh the test... and then that begs the question, "Who will decide the questions?"--- Whyte_Wolf on September 6, 2007 3:45 PM

As someone who grew up in the far western suburbs, can I suggest we start with "Are you 17?" and "Are you now or have you ever been in gainful employment?"

Brenno

September 06, 2007

04:47 PM

I think Sam should turn back into Samantha and come over to my house tonight..

I just threw up in my mouth. William Street, Brenno. Just after the tunnel on the left hand side, city bound lane, where the JJJ studios used to be. Ask for Epiphany - you'll certainly have one when she gets her strides off. - Sam

Stillness in time

September 06, 2007

04:47 PM

Posted by: Econometrica on September 6, 2007 1:35 PM

Trust me dude, you're wasting your breath - I'm a long time sporadic reader of this blog, and this is not the sort of blog which attracts posters who appreciate quantitative analyses to support an argument - as the various dismissive and hostile posts to your comment indicate. There's not much in the way of rigorous intellectual discussion that goes on here. I guess it's not the right forum for it though - my suggestion is for you to check out the Guardian blogs, where you'll generally get a more educated, intellectual crowd hanging out -there are some really good topics too, actually.

(and yes, I do contribute to those as well).

Haven't read the original article so can't really comment on the methodology...

Ainsley

September 06, 2007

04:52 PM

I have read (rightly or wrongly) that a child's personality is fully formed by age 8.

Stillness in time

September 06, 2007

04:55 PM

In support of my earlier comment about diet affecting childhood behaviour... this is an issue thats going to explode in Oz soon too... (we're always behind the Northern hemisphere in this regard).

that someone who is a parent has a better chance of knowing what they are talking about than someone who has just read a blog for a couple of hours.

Posted by: Emperor of Pellucidar on September 6, 2007 4:07 PM

So there, nyar nyar nee nyar nyar

earth angel

September 06, 2007

04:59 PM

Posted by: nelly on September 6, 2007 3:55 PM

Thanks nelly. I should have pointed out: most of those comments were made by my dad; the comments about leaving were about mum.

I still don't understand how she could leave her kids, though she said the other day that she always thought we would end up with her eventually. She didn't fight for us. Her loss. We get along now, but its certainly not what some of my friends have with their mums.

As for my dad, I realised not long ago that it was his insecurities and resentment that drove his comments. Wish I could go back and tell my teenage self that :-) Unfortunately he passed away a couple of years ago so I never really got the chance to talk to hiim about it. But I don't think I need to now - I've resolved it within myself.

earth angel

September 06, 2007

05:01 PM

I have read (rightly or wrongly) that a child's personality is fully formed by age 8.

Posted by: Ainsley on September 6, 2007 4:52 PM

That's about right - though our brains do keep developing until around the early 20s (explains the risk taking behaviour of teens). Also, our ability to form healthy emotional attachments is determined by about the age of 5.

Scary huh?

wilow

September 06, 2007

05:14 PM

I have read (rightly or wrongly) that a child's personality is fully formed by age 8.

Posted by: Ainsley on September 6, 2007 4:52 PM

That would make Thruster and MarcusBondi about 4 then, right?

M

September 06, 2007

05:19 PM

Enjoy the remainder of Bush week everyone! I am going into lock down. I have a bottle of vodka and I am not afraid to use it.

long gerry

September 06, 2007

05:37 PM

Also, our ability to form healthy emotional attachments is determined by about the age of 5.

Posted by: earth angel on September 6, 2007 5:01 PM

My early school years up to year 5 were very abusive (emotional, physical but not sexual) so I can attest to this. My parents were not to blame because I never told them what was happening. It is something I can never fully understand, the mentality of some people who have power and control over children. These were middle-aged women, and it was a state run school, not catholic. It is sad that a bad start can derail an entire life.

I feel that it is the most important thing to give children a sense of self worth, above all else. It underpins everything about them and gives them strength against adversity for the rest of their lives.

q

September 06, 2007

06:05 PM

Posted by: Bilby on September 6, 2007 3:55 PM

i stopped reading the news... it's all the same every day anyway, just different names, dates, and places. i like it better this way

Me too! Although my poison of choice is a bottle of 18 year old port. It will either be really good or really bad...

wingman

September 06, 2007

06:20 PM

Re teaching kids respect/politeness, and the unconditional love thing ... I told my two year old "I love you", and he said gravely "Thank you very much!"

Ainsley

September 06, 2007

06:26 PM

Posted by: Huskynik on September 6, 2007 2:34 PM

Better to be that than a turkey slapper devotee I thinks..

Bilby

September 06, 2007

06:35 PM

Posted by: Huskynik on September 6, 2007 2:34 PM

Point taken ;-) As soon as she's embarrassed about being naked in front of me, I'll put clothes on. Sound fair?

Doc

September 06, 2007

07:09 PM

Posted by: Discipline's Disciple on September 6, 2007 11:04 AM

OK, call your bluff: soooo...what's your deal, Ms. DD? Are you saying if I was to get to know you first, no matter how C-cup, all over, you may be, I then wouldn't want to shag you?

Not kidding. That's interesting. So, like, tell me about yourself. What's the uncontrollable thing about you--something you know about but just can't change--that makes men not want to be with you anymore despite your shaggability apparently being otherwise extremely, er, comely?

OK, you're right. Something about you already makes me not want to shag you anymore, even though for a bit I was kinda thinking about it.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Der Wächter

September 06, 2007

07:48 PM

Posted by: Stillness in time on September 6, 2007 4:47 PM

Actually, you might be surprised if you knew what some of the posters do for a living. For example, I know of one blogger who has a number of university degrees and is a senior executive (and I don't mean someone with just a fancy title) for one of the regions largest corporations. And I am sure that that person can also talk quantitative analysis with you until your first year exam results are out... dude.

Your analysis of the contributors would be more accurate were you to state that this is not the type of blog where pretentious pseudo-academic drivel can be posted without a light-hearted shot being directed at it; this does not mean that people don't understand it, it's just that most people here aren't compelled by feelings of intellectual inferiority to publicly spout something that is obviously crafted to make the poster appear intellectually superior to others (as is the case with your lame post).

So why don't you waddle off to the Guardian and leave the lighthearted banter to those of us with a sense of fun and humour. Be a good chap now and close the door on your way out, if you don’t mind. Ta.

D.E.X

September 06, 2007

08:15 PM

Discipline's Disciple on September 6, 2007 1:25 PM

Your mother knows everything.!!!
Anything she may not, I am sure we would be happy to fill her in on the details
LOL

Emperor of Pellucidar on September 6, 2007 1:52 PM
I would if I cared, but generally I don't. As long as people get the gist of it , I am happy :)

rocky on September 6, 2007 2:06 PM
That is Thursty for you mate.
He lives in Wollongong in the converted storage shed out the back of the Pt Kembla Workers Club.
When the cold sea breezes pickup, they rattle the loose sheets on the corregated iron roof and swirl around his bed where he sits in his brown ugg boots and brown tartan dressing-gown with a can of VB and a ciggie.
Makes him grumpy at the best of times that does.

marcusbondi on September 6, 2007 12:10 PM
maate,
We all know what kind of support you live to give to them
LOFL

Ainsley on September 6, 2007 6:26 PM
ROTFL
some damn nice posts today.
Bit like fencing, point to the heart and run 'em through.
Oh btw Sam has my e-mail, drop him a line.
not gunna post it and I don't like getting spam and all sorts of f*kn crap

Eskimo

September 06, 2007

08:20 PM

I've got three girls, bad role models and no formal childhood-related training.

- Love their mom. Support her, communicate and be united on the approach to child raising
- I agree with blogfloosy, it's not the fight, it's the resolution of the fight that's important...and it has to be visible
- Show love and R.E.S.P.E.C.T. to them
- It starts early. I am the one that feeds them, makes them laugh, holds them when they cry and helps them deal with their sh*t. It doesn't change much...ever
- I push myself to observe them and pay attention to the changes. And don't underestimate them...ever...at your peril
- Learn to how to connect and share their moments of joy and pain...small or big.

MeGirl

September 06, 2007

08:27 PM

One of the biggest factors in being good parents is that the parents love each other and the kids know it. Not something that's usually thought about cos it's not a direct parent to child thing, but something that rings true time and time again. A home with respect and love between parents (if there are 2 parents in the home - all families are different,just speaking from my experience) is where kids will feel secure and confident and loved.

miskate

September 06, 2007

11:27 PM

Oh ok, I confess - I haven't read all other the posts before posting. There were too many. But I have OPINIONS about this.

Of course... I have no children. I choose to believe that makes my opinions pure and unadulterated.

Two things: first on the "having books in the house" being more important than "reading to them every day" thing. From my own experience growing up, the stories my parents told without aid of books were always far more interesting than the ones they read to me, but that's because I could read by myself anyway from a fairly young age (certainly before school started). There were always lots of books in my house. The point is, I think, that people who own lots of books value reading implicitly, and little kiddies are fantastic at picking up on the implicit - "we have lots of books - books must be important so I'd better work out this whole book thing".

My mum never gave me the "birds and the bees" talk, but "Where Did I Come From", "What's Happening to Me" and "the Joy of Sex" (and, worryingly, "More Joy of Sex" as well - just in case) were on the bottom shelf in the living room my entire life. I guess she figured we'd find them and work it out as needed.

The next thing is in terms of praise. I was always praised for being talented and intelligent - never for working hard. Then all of a sudden doing well wasn't just about being able to pick things up quickly, it became about knowing stuff and applying complex skills which actually take some practice to develop. My rankings started to drop at that point.

As I said, kiddies pick up on the implicit. If you value natural abilities/talents that's great, but be careful that you don't end up with a kid who gives up on anything that they can't master after three goes because that is clearly a failing, or who feels that they don't deserve any praise they do get because it was too easy. That kid will never be satisfied in life.

I think that it's important to couch praise in terms of effort - ie "Wow, look what you managed to achieve with all that hard work - aren't you amazing!" rather than simply "aren't you brilliant!"

My 2c anyway.

Schuylercat

September 06, 2007

11:58 PM

I love this: "Our primary task as parents, beyond attending to the day-to-day physical and emotional welfare of our children is to convey to them a sense of the world as an imperfect place in which it is possible nevertheless to be happy." What great advice.

I have five kids, aged from twenty-two to three. They are all completely diverse: if there can be five poles, then they are all polar opposites. From methodical to driven to lazy to sneaky to mean to shy to hot-tempered to funny…they’re just people, really; little people with a bizarre world going on about them just like me.

After all the years of struggle and fighting and mistakes and messes and such, when child rearing discussions evolve I always think of a friend who’s son set fires at school. This woman had only the one child – the father was nowhere to be found, and she struggled always, but she had every book there was, from Spock to whatever latest new-age Zen-voodoo crap. She was always fast with an answer when queried about child rearing: “Never, EVER give a child soy milk! Especially a girl. She’ll grow breasts at a very early age.” It was always something: vaccinations, diet, skin care, circumcision, exposure to Mozart, whatever. This woman was so plugged into the information stream I swore she’d written half the books herself.

The first time her son lit a fire he was something like eight or nine. He did it during class, and the school was evacuated. No one was hurt. They sequestered the boy into a room and called Mamma, and the principal described her reaction to the press: “She strode into the room, sat down, looked me in the eye and said “ My son would never do that. I’m taking him home, and out of the school.’”

A week into the new school, he lit another fire. I think he lit four before he was barred from attending classes entirely in that region.

I spoke to her years later – the boy didn’t light fires any more, because he was on whatever cocktail of wonder drugs she was made to force down his throat. He could barely speak, she said. He was behind at school. He was alone all the time and suicidal. It was awful.

Some time during that chat she said the one thing that struck a chord in me: “I had no idea.” The boy’s shrink said he was bipolar, which can be said of damn near anyone. The boy himself said to that same shrink that he didn’t light the fires to hurt anyone, he did it because nobody ever listened to him.

I have always suspected what seemed perfectly obvious: this woman – smart and educated and driven – had absolutely no idea how to be a parent. She gathered up books on the subject and filled her brain with the data she found there. And when she was done reading, she looked up and discovered her nine year old was not what she read about. Not at all. She was so busy looking for an instruction manual that her child fell apart in the meantime.

And it should come as no surprise that this happened, either – does anyone really “know” how to be a parent? Lord – anyone can do it, which means anyone can excel at it…and anyone can suck at it, too.

It occurs to me that if I am going to be a good parent, I need to do the following:

1 – Put the f*cking books down
2 – Listen to everything that comes out of them. Kids speak a weird language, and when a child says “I’m scared” it can mean any of a thousand things, and not all of them are bad.
3 – Believe them, contemplate them, learn from them. How odd is it that all five of mine are so different? Shouldn’t they all be little clones? Evidently not – I have to concede that kids are far less impacted by parents than I want to believe. That belief, by the way, is pure ego.
4 – Remember that not everything is a life lesson. “I found a dollar on the sidewalk” can turn into a three hour ordeal for a five year old when a parent starts spouting on facets of ownership, “finders keepers”, generosity, luck, blah blah blah. Sometimes a dollar on the sidewalk is just that.
5 – Brace for impact. Kids eat bugs. They fall off bikes. They take drugs. They get in fights. They steal things. They lie. They hurt. They have sex. They run away. They get hit my cars. They die. Just…like…everyone…else.

Kids will mess up a parent’s head faster than heroin, and oddly, they’re just as intoxicating, but first, last, always, they are people. Food, water, love, patience, discipline, support, props, air, sunshine: they need what we need, they just perceive those needs through the purely selfish and untainted eyes of children. Go ahead and analyze it, build statistical databases and track progress markers and key performance indicators through school testing (as if addition and history matter as much as socialization to a seven year old) and you have just that: a thick wad of data. That data doesn’t help a lot when your daughter looks at you and says “Where did grampa go after he died?” or your son steals a car and calls from jail. Life happens.

Jenno

September 07, 2007

08:50 AM

Interesting... I'm reading a book at the moment called "They F*** You Up" that seems to contradict all the evidence you've just quoted. It says your upbringing and parental influence are the most important factors in personality development. For example, the book says a "lack of empathic care" (such as that given by a depressed mum, for example) when you are between one and three months of age can contribute to the development of mental illnesses such as schizophrenia. I don't have the book here to quote exactly but it's fascinating. Goes to show there is still no real consensus...

Red Dragon

September 07, 2007

09:18 AM

Having been raised in a single parent home by a total fruit loop who thought physical and psychological torture was acceptable and responsible parenting I only had a clear idea of what I thought was unacceptable as a parent. My children, now adults, could tell me how many times they were smacked - it was so few. I accepted that I knew little but set boundaries and look with pride on the well adjusted young adults who populate my life. My brother who thought that mum was right and proceeded in the tradition has also produced two well adjusted adults. Seems native intellect and that something deep down inside each of us drives to be what we become. It is so much better when it occurs in a loving space though.

PT

September 07, 2007

09:58 AM

Hmm.. This topic is very interesting. According to Levitt, it matters if:
*The child has highly educated parents.
*The child's parents have high socioeconomic status.
*The child's mother was thirty or older at the time of her first child's birth
*The child had low birth weight.
*The child's parents speak English at home.
*The child is adopted.
*The child's parents are involved in the PTA.
*The child has many books in their home.

By this measure my children should do well at school. However if I applied these measures to myself, I should not have obtained a high academic achievement. Lets look at it:
* My parents did not finish primary school
* my parents had low economic status
* my mother was 25 when she had her first child
* my parents spoke Chinese at home (and my mother barely spoke English let alone write it)
* my parents did not get involved in the PTA (I assume this is the Parents Teachers Assoc)
* I had a single book in the house that I read.

I think the reason I did well academically is that I was lucky in being raised in a country where the education was free and consistently of a high standard. My parents did not have the privilege in their former country. Also when you look at the American findings, it could be a statement that there is far more social inequality in the US than here (so far). For instance, if you are a poor Hispanic in a poor neighbourhood, there is a chance that their schooling may be below the standard of an expensive private school, affordable by the wealthy or middle class.

Thursty

September 07, 2007

10:42 AM

Look at all the kids who get stroppy because I made a valid point. It amazes me the fantasy world you live in. None of you know me. You know thoughts that I choose to put on a blog.

Don't shoot the messenger, read the message and learn.

And as for you D.E.X. Keep it up, reading your innacurate descriptions about wollongong folk I just laugh. Ask yourself a lot of sydney folk are trying to move down here, they know the grand things about this place. If you think that the steelworks worker is the only inhabitant down in the gong, then it just proves what an idiot you really are.

Oh yeah!

September 07, 2007

11:14 AM

Posted by: PT on September 7, 2007 9:58 AM

PT= Poon Tang?

Thursty

September 07, 2007

12:17 PM

Serious Question Sam. Wheres jack marx's blog gone tiger?

tidal

September 07, 2007

12:18 PM

This weekend I intend to get respectably lost at sea. It sounds like it has a lot of possibilities.

ah, old guy. my heart goes out to you... I know the lying harpy comment comes with a lot of pain...(mine is still the Evil One. except we joke about it now - !- never thought we'd get to that point! she hasnt apologised, but she has cultivated a bewildered expression that she puts on when she says 'I dont know what was going on in my head!')
I'd tell you not to take it personally because it's a developmental stage - except I would imagine that, like me, you know it and knowing it never made it feel any better.

one more note on the evil teens - adults who facilitate this kind of emotional bastardry in teens should have their heads nailed to the wall. My teen I can forgive. (mostly. eventually.) - the adults who like to indulge the 'evil parent' self sabotage to make themselves feel superior - and do it knowing it may well come at the cost of the teens relationship with the other parent/or their family have a lot to answer for.
school counsellors who do this need their crimes tattooed across their foreheads so parents can throw rocks at them.

Lisa Jane

September 07, 2007

12:55 PM

Posted by: Schuylercat on September 6, 2007 11:58 PM

WOW. Love your work.

LJ x

Stillness in time

September 07, 2007

02:18 PM

• Posted by: Der Wächter on September 6, 2007 7:48 PM

Thank you for proving my point – someone makes a comment about the generally non-intellectual nature of most of the posts (and by any reasonable standards, this is a fair assessment), and they’re immediately attacked as being “pretentious”, “pseudo-academic”, with a intellectual ‘inferiority complex’. With such comments, you paint yourself as the epitome of the tired, predictable stereotype of the anti-intellectual brigade!

Got any other knee-jerk reactions up your sleeve?

What exactly have I done wrong here to deserve such condemnation?

I was trying to sympathise with and defend the efforts of a poster who contributed a more academic comment, instead of the usual (valid) personal viewpoints that most posters contribute. S/He posted a valid commentary which was slightly more abstract/intellectual than is usual for this blog and s/he got shot down by posters who have the same anti-intellectual attitude as YOU. I’m surprised the typical put-downs of academic or learned people ‘boffins’, ‘eggheads’ etc weren’t thrown in for good measure.

My post was not “crafted” to make me appear intellectually superior – I just pointed out to this new poster that his contribution was not likely to be appreciates (which peoples comments to his post relly drive home –many of which were a bit more than ‘light-hearted’) and that there were better forums for people to attack issues on a more intellectual basis (which you would seem to agree with).

I never said, at any point, that there was anything wrong with light-hearted banter – many of the regular posters on this blog are intelligent, thoughtful and quite often offer some pretty (emotionally) deep insights, and for this reason, the blog is mostly a pretty good read.

But it is true without a doubt that this blog does not attract a regular following of intellectually-inclined posters, soooo many time have I posted something a little bit more academic/abstract (under various blog names) because I wanted to contribute to a serious discussion of the blog issue, only for it to be completely ignored, or criticised (as opposed to critiqued). I can cite MANY examples of this.

My honest impression is that this and other blogs are becoming more like chat rooms for the regulars, and if a poster doesn’t ‘fit in’ or doesn’t play nicely with the regulars (or refuses to play at all, because not everyone posts on blogs with the intention of making friends), then they get told to leave, often in a not-very-nice way (such as the way YOU told me to leave).

I think people forget that this is a public forum, and no one poster has the right to tell anyone they can’t contribute. Sure, feel free to ignore my comments – hell, you can even attack them if you want, you can even attack me personally – as long as you don’t mind getting served back – but who the hell are you to tell me to leave a public forum?

Oh, and thanks for the personal insult, but I did very well in my first year exams nearly 15 years ago. And I’ve worked in the corporate world too – and I’m most definitely not impressed with executive types – seem to me to be mostly arse-kissers who are good at protecting their hides, covering their tracks, and taking credit for their subordinates work!!!

jf

September 07, 2007

02:48 PM

I believe that parents have a profound affect on the type of person their children turn out to be. However I still largely agree with the theory in Freakonomics.

Gordon Livingstone on the other hand appears to be having a bet each way - "Parents have a limited ability to shape their children's behaviour” and yet it is important "that children feel loved and respected. It is essential for parents to establish limits, especially around questions of safety and aggression." Surely if parents have a limited ability to shape a child’s behaviour then nothing they do is important let alone essential.

It is interesting to contrast this study with the study they did on the effect of legalising abortion had crime. At a superficial level it would appear to be contradictory as the abortion study holds, amongst other things, that a child’s upbringing (which includes parenting) has an enormous influence on how they turn out. However this study is limited to the influence parents have on test scores. Not on other measures of success such as happiness, patience, resilience, goodness and so on.

Levitt’s study suggest that the there is little that a parent can do to influence a kids academic results. I agree with this – if you’re a dummy, chances are your kids going to be a dummy as well. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Thankfully there’s more to a healthy, happy, productive life than high school test results. And intelligence doesn't make a person good - the 'evil genius' anyone. Thus, variables within the study that correlated strongly with test scores were suggestive of a parents’ intellectual capacity (an intelligent person will tend to enjoy reading and therefore will have books in the home).

PT on September 7, 2007 9:58 AM – studies, almost by definition, are generalisations. Your experience would appear to be the exception to the rule. That is, intelligent parents who, by virtue of an accident of birth and circumstance and therefore a lack of opportunity didn’t get to realise their intellectual capacity.

I also absolutely agree with miskate on September 6, 2007 11:27 PM. Telling your kid she’s smart doesn’t make it so. In fact, as they get older and just being smart (or fast, or artistic) is no longer enough, they will become discouraged and feel like failures. If you encourage them for effort then the effort is its own rewards. And in life it is generally perspiration over inspiration that matters. Thus, the child will learn to make the effort and with the effort will come failures but also result.
So, don’t tell your child how clever they are, or that they are the best at running or footy or “so artistic” or such a good dance – (Although mine are – of course).

Instead teach them to (as Winston Churchill put it) “Never give in--never, never, never, never”
Thus, by loving your kid, teaching them to be patient and resilient and teaching them they will be happy and content and more than likely find the path that is right for them and probably do it very well.

Marcus and Thursty - you are, of course, welcome to your opinions, however, I am surprised that you can hold opinions that are so strong and so black and white when your experience is limited to being a kid. I am still uncertain and I've both been a kid and a parent and I can tell you that it is far from black and white.

voyeur

September 07, 2007

04:02 PM

Learn that sometimes you have to apologise too - kids aren't always wrong.

Bilby

September 08, 2007

07:12 PM

Husky - How's the heart? What a ball tearer of a game! Now settling in the for the Swannies.

Bilby

September 09, 2007

09:08 AM

:-(

shalot

September 09, 2007

03:05 PM

Posted by: Thursty on September 7, 2007 12:17 PM

Was that a Dorothy Dixer? Anyway, assuming it's not - have a look at Sam's 'We've all scored before' blog from a couple of weeks ago for the answer. Marx appears to be writing for another online publication now - google 'jack marx bullring' if you want to find it (I'd put in the direct link but it seems a bit impolite).

The Old Guy

September 09, 2007

03:17 PM

Well it seems that my blog on Friday 7th September has been judged too obscure, too off topic or perhaps too droll to be posted.

To the moderators or those who may try and interpret the blog the following aid memoir maybe helpful, that is a dictionary that helps anyone under 50. As some of it was not prepared the order of the entries may vary.

External Affairs- the original name for the Department of Foreign Affairs.

That Was The Week That Was- Satirical current affairs show of the 60's in UK and US.

David Frost- Host of the above program.

Tom Lehrer- Piano playing maths professor who sang a satirical song at the end of each episode, eg Vatican Rag and George Murphy see below.

General Douglas MacArthur- US Commander Allied Land Forces in WW2. Set up his headquarters in Sydney in a bunker in the Railway tunnels which form part of the City Circle System, the office and war room still apparently exist. Was thought to be a Republican nominee for President in the later 40's early 50's.

All Quiet on the Western Front- E Remarque book on the WW1 from the German perspective.

Secret Service- the US President's protective service.

South Pacific- Our region, War theatre in WW2 and a musical.

George Murphy- A song and dance star who was elected to the US Senate in the 60's, and of whom Tom Lehrer wrote a song about the Senator who can really sing and dance.

Where's Osama in Iraq?- A reference to Where's Wally.

Three thimble trick- the classic ball under the cones, pea under the thimble gambling con trick. the pea is usually in the hand of the mover.

Iran- US embassy staff were hostages and a botched rescue mission ended in the desert when two helicopters crashed. The Ayatollah was the leader of that time after the Shah was deposed. US policy was directed at recovering from this upset.

Gipper, nickname for the coach of a college football team (Notre Dame or West Point) who was depicted in a movie by Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan in the last part of his Presidency used the phrase "doing it for the Gipper." Widely believed that at that time he was showing the first signs of Alzheimers.

Condoleeza Rice and Alexander Downer were going to have a game of golf at Royal Sydney, which was reportedly cancelled for security reasons.

Royal Sydney was a selective golf club and the Jewish businessmen were excluded (what the US used to call restricted) so they went and set up Monash, after our famous general who was Jewish.

Korea- Korean War, the 38th Parallel is the boundary between the two Koreas. The drawing of the boundary was contentious. The request to formally end the Korean War in APEC was poignant to say the least. Korea was a province of Japan before and during WW2.

Star Wars, Reagan called his upgrade of the US Nuclear Weapons using space weapons the Star Wars Initiative. It is believed that the extra defence spending behind Star Wars and the need for USSR to keep up was a leading initiative to detente and the break up of the Warsaw Pact and USSR.

Warren Harding, US President at the time of the Teapot Dome Oil Scandal involving Naval Oil Reserves that were leased to cronies of the political party.

82nd Airborne- US paratroop regiment.

Babel fish- the translator used in Douglas Adam's "A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy." You stick it in your ear.

James Stewart- US actor, he had an imaginary white rabbit friend in Harvey who he talked to and he also played Col James Doolittle in a movie, a further obtuse reference to Dr Doolittle who could speak to animals.

Three Hats -Three Tails, reference to the restaurant guide and rating. The practice of small meals on huge plates.

If you do decide the piece is innocuous and is published you may wish to publish this piece as well to help some translate.

Why do I bother? Somehow, I like you lot, even though you think I'm thick and I think the same of you at times.

Thud. The sound of the Old Guy's head hitting the keyboard in frustration.
Only one 9

Bob Collier

September 09, 2007

06:38 PM

What makes a perfect parent?

Wrong question. Or perhaps more accurately, it's a useless question.

"Clearly bad parenting does matter". That, in my experience, is more to the point.

Perfectly illustrated by this quote from Linda Overstreet:
"Here's a rule for you. If you want to become successful, find out what failures do and don't do it."

I have been waiting with bated breath to find out his mission and what he has been up to.

The c*ntry has been very trying. I need to know if he has been well fed and taken care of.

My beans are happy and so are my bettroots so all I need to know is that the urban wildlife is happy.

And best of luck with your children. If you want to offload feel free to email me at mm_ssssshh @ yahoo . com . au . I do hope that they grow out of it.

Susie

September 09, 2007

10:35 PM

here's a thought. as much as girls bitch about men being 'players' and not wanting commit, always wanting the bad boy etc, what are the rule when the situation is reversed? i'm currently shagging this bloke who ticks all the boxes for a good dial-a-root. but i'm beginning to suspect he's keener than i am, long term wise. i don't want roses or dinner. just a good seeing to fairly regularly with no other time commitments involved, except exclusivity for safety reasons. i like being single. i'm selfish with my time and don't want a relationship right now. one day, yes, but not now. so what's the ettique for 'playing' with someone? and is there a better term than playing?

The Old Guy

September 09, 2007

11:26 PM

For a second time....

It is time for the Old Guys' review of That Was The Week That Was with apologies to Sir David Frost and Tom Lehrer.

This Week has been the topics of relationships (as always) Don't stand so close to me, The shortest distance between two and What makes a perfect parent. But we are diverted this last week and we should look outward rather than inward to matters of External Affairs.

After being evicted from the Old Lawyers Home this correspondent has been living the rough life and has taken up residence here in the General Douglas MacArthur bunker in the red zone in Sydney. I am happy to report that all is quiet on this front.

Apologies for Friday 31st. I had a few visitors from the advance guard of the Secret Service and now their Chief George has dropped in for a chinwag or two.

I told the fellows from the Secret Service to watch out for Drop bears and bunyips up top. They were very interested as neither ASIO nor ASIS had told them anything of such risks. Well after I told them how General Doug had used the bunkers in WW2, boy where they interested and they agreed that Chief George should stay here until he has to go home between photo opportunities.

Well George is a pretty strange guy. I showed him the WW2 War table and room with the South Pacific on it. It seems he had heard of the musical but thought one of George Murphy's musicals was better.

I sent out for some sand and we put it on the war table, renamed it Middle East and gave him some plastic tanks, plastic men, a few buildings and lots of US flags. I told him that he should play "Where's Osama in Iraq." The joke is on him as we did the three thimble trick and Osama isn't even on the board. Still it kept George happy for hours. Putin has heard about the game but is pissed off as George won't let him play in the sandpit. PM John is unhappy as George hasn't been around much.

George and I got talking and I asked him about how he got the Senate to agree to go into Iraq. He said it was simple. The junior senators were gung ho and thought they should finish his father's job off. The Republican Senior Senators thought they were doing for the Gipper and the Senior Democrats who didn't listen to Ted Kennedy thought they were really invading Iran.

Condoleeza came around. She is annoyed with Alexander because he won't take her for a golf game at Royal Sydney. I didn't have the heart to tell her the club was restricted in Gen Doug's day and is probably run by the same committee. Condi is a great gal, but like alot of US women, too big hair and too big teeth, Hairdressers and Orthodontists much be millionaires.

Condi perked up when I moved a bit of the sand on the top left of the table and revealed Korea. I gave her a ruler and pen and told her she could redraw the 38th Parallel. It looked a bit far north for me.

Well, I told Chief George that my name is Harding and I have a prospect for oil in the Teapot Dome under Uluru. George says he, Dick and Haliburton will be at loose ends soon and will be back in early 2009 with the privatised 82nd Airborne for a friendly takeover. I can hardly wait.

They had lots of interesting stuff including this universal translator called Babel, its a left over from the Star Wars program. After Reagan watched Star Wars the movie he decided to have Stars Wars, so someone showed him A Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, he decided he wanted a babelfish universal translator. They eventually made it but found it didn't work on humans.

I turned it on, put it to the James Stewart setting and pointed it at some rats. Well it worked.

M, k8, your rat visitors of late were on a job. Just as we have the Three Hats for restaurants they have the Three Tails. They told me that the top restaurants are not favoured as they serve small meals on large plates and there are no left overs. They go for buffets and larger family restaurants. They decided to do a comparison to look a life in the suburbs. k8 they wanted to try your wattle seed encrusted kangaroo and M, Basil wanted to try the organic produce. Sorry, the tails did go to the usual winners and you didn't get a rating, too clean and too much water thrown by M.

If this is still too offensive to publish then I do give up.

Moongirl

September 10, 2007

07:13 AM

Posted by: Bilby on September 9, 2007 9:08 AM

:-)))

Lairo

September 10, 2007

08:20 AM

Do people really believe that you find someone attractive entirely because they are a genetic opposite?

Because this may just be me and my own experience but I usually find that I like girls who are of the same race more than of others.

Last friday I came across this indian girl and her english friend (both similair in height attractiveness etc). Now by that theory I should have found the Indian girl more attractive because my background is the same as her friends was.

However all I had to do was look into the eyes of this other girl and by blood started to heat up, I just really wanted her then and there.

Anyway I got both their numbers and a few others that night, so hopefully I can drive it a bit further next time...

jf

September 10, 2007

09:24 AM

Posted by: Bob Collier on September 9, 2007 6:38 PM

Nice marketing Bob. Got me though - I've just shelled out $8.68 in complete defiance of Schuylercat's advice to put the book's away.

Thursty

September 12, 2007

12:22 PM

Posted by: jf on September 7, 2007 2:48 PM

Seriously you are a dropkick. You do not know us, nor know of our lifes experiences.

jf

September 12, 2007

03:13 PM

Seriously you are a dropkick. You do not know us, nor know of our lifes experiences.

Posted by: Thursty on September 12, 2007 12:22 PM

I know you haven't had kids. You may one day though - when your balls drop.

Thursty

September 17, 2007

12:04 PM

Posted by: jf on September 12, 2007 3:13 PM

This statement, provides no information or benefit to anyone on the planet.
A correct statement would have been the acknowledgement, that you actually know zip.

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Sam de Brito has spent more than a decade writing for TV, film and newspapers. In his first book, No Tattoos Before You’re Thirty, he offers advice to his unborn children. In his latest offerings, The Lost Boys and Building a Better Bloke, he takes the pulse of Aussie manhood. Now it’s your turn as he expounds on the business of being a bloke.