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Topic: D20-ish System (Read 4807 times)

I have an on again off again idea for my own system based off d20 that I work on, and it's time to discuss again. We'll start with Base Attack Bonus:

BAB does not scale with Level (though there will be rare opportunities to raise it via class).

BAB is either +0 (anything currently having Wizard BA), +1 (anything currently having Cleric BAB), and +2 (anything currently having fighter bab). There will no longer be Feats like Improved Trip, Improved Grapple etc (or they will give new options instead of what they do now). Instead all Opposed Combat Checks take a -1 (-2?) Penalty for every point your opponents BAB is higher than yours. If his BAB is at least 2 points higher than yours you also provoke an AoO.

Unlike currently BAB will be a bonus to attack, damage, and Initiative rolls.

Certain Feats/class powers may require BAB of a certain Level. For example if there is an Improved Grapple it may require a BAB of +2 or higher.

What I did was swapping the whole BaB thing with +1 aB granted by fighter feats. Especially with the chained ones.

e.g. each of the feats in the manyshot feat (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc') gives +1 bonus for attacking.

This reinforces fighters as the ones with weapon attack options. It seems to (mostly) work.However, I think that you need to state what your aiming for. It would help understand your angle better.

Im going for restricting the RNG. Bonuses will be smaller and stack less. I'm also using BAB as a way of showing which classes are trained combatants and which ones arent, hence why its more difficult to pull off an opposed combat check against someone of a higher BAB.

Attack rolls are still 1d20 plus appropriate stat plus BAB plus miscellaneous modifiers. No bonuses of the same kind stack now, you take the highest one. I'm considering capping non epic bonuses/penalties at +4/-4. Bonuses will likely be less common.

AC is still 10 plus appropriate stat plus bonuses, and will not range as high as it does now to make up for lower BAB.

Weapon/armor proficiencies work more like the way ill be doing skills (which I'll get to later). You will get a number of weapons/shield/armor proficiencies depending on your BAB (for examples sake lets say its 3 for BAB +0, 5 for BAB +1, and 8 for BAB+2. Weapons you dont have the appropriate skill with are -1 to hit (-2?) and do not add BAB. Armors/Shields you have no skill with have their bonus lowered by -1. If you are skilled with them you subtract your BAB from teh armor check penalty. You will get a few points per level to invest in armor/weapons which will give you new options that used to be feats/skill tricks.

Skills will work similarly. You'll get a skill Bonus of +0/+1/+2, and choose a number of skills much the same as you did with weapons above (but in this case maybe 5/8/10?). Skills will not have ranks, a skill check is d20 plus appropriate stat modifier plus Skill Bonus. If it isnt one of your chosen skills the check is -1 and you don't add skill bonus. Some skills will still require training to use as will exotic weapons. The skill list will likely be more condensed. Every level you will get x points to improve skills, which will work like some feats or skill tricks used to.

BAB is either +0 (anything currently having Wizard BA), +1 (anything currently having Cleric BAB), and +2 (anything currently having fighter bab). There will no longer be Feats like Improved Trip, Improved Grapple etc (or they will give new options instead of what they do now). Instead all Opposed Combat Checks take a -1 (-2?) Penalty for every point your opponents BAB is higher than yours. If his BAB is at least 2 points higher than yours you also provoke an AoO.

Imposing a penalty equal to the difference of BAB to opposed rolls seems needlessly complex to me. If the opposed roll is based on BAB in the first place, you can get the exact same effect by simply doubling everyone's BAB (+0 for wizard, +2 for cleric, and +4 for fighter). Although, this also makes BAB have double the effect on attack rolls, which might not be what you want.

Im going for restricting the RNG. Bonuses will be smaller and stack less. I'm also using BAB as a way of showing which classes are trained combatants and which ones arent, hence why its more difficult to pull off an opposed combat check against someone of a higher BAB.

Restricting RNG can't be done by smaller bonuses (afaik). Restricting RNG is done by decreasing die size, or using multiple dice to create a bell curve.You can use the following calculator to see the chances for each result.

Also, I agree with RobbyPants on that using both penalty and delta are "needlessly complex".

The Fighter: You are a mercenary, or a soldier, or a martial artist of some kind. You contribute to the party by being a skilled physical combatant who does damage primarily through martial skill. At higher levels you may get some magical enhancements or have been taught a few skills to help you keep up but you're mostly a mundane warrior in the beginning. Alignment Unrestricted (Alignment will mostly be less a restrictor of your behavior, and more of a proclamation of which of the Powers That Be you have aligned yourself with).Base Attack Bonus +2Base Defense Bonus +1Base Skill Bonus +0Key Ability Choose any one to receive a +2 permanent bonus. This will also be the stat your class abilities come from. Str based Fighters are Brutes who rely on physical power. Dex based fighters rely on agility and quickness. Con based Fighters are tough guys who are defensive tanks. Int based Fighters are tacticians and military leaders. Wisdom based Fighters are generally ranged combatants. Cha based fighters rely on misdirection and intimidation.Beginning Weapon/Armor Proficiencies Choose any 8 plus one every 5 LevelsBeginning Defenses Choose any 2Beginning Skill Proficiencies Choose any 5 plus one every 5 Levels

Journeyman (Levels 1-10): Gain 2 Feats at 1st Level, plus one each additional Level. Feats can upgrade a Class Ability, Skill/Weapon/Armor Proficiency, or give you a new option entirely. Give a permanent +2 Bonus to any Ability Score at Levels 4 and 8 (maximum score is 18 plus or minus Racial Modifiers). Upgrade BAB, BDB or BSB by +1 at Level 6 (max is +4). These will tend to be basic class abilities, and depending on what you choose, you get a sort of PrC at Veteran Levels.

Monsters hp, saves etc will not be by type but rather by class. There will be a couple classes like Mindless Brute (most golems, mindless undead), Ambush Predator (Animals, Vermin, Magical Beasts), etc.

Asskicker (Fighter, Knight, Swashbuckler, Warblade, Samurai, Marshall) You kill people for money, either because it's the only skill you have or you really get off on it. You may offer the world more, but sadly all it sees is a man who can only use violence to solve his problems.Berserker (aka Barbarian) You has anger management issues. You don't have skill so much as blind, frothing rage. Optionally you may also be possessed. Either way, sane people give you a wide berth. But you get the occasional freebie offered to you to make you go away.Blind Fanatic (aka Paladin, Crusader, Sohei, soulborn) You believe in the One True Thing enough to be willing to murder the whole world if it's necessary for the cause. Unfortunately for society, none of you agree on the One True Thing, so you're the center of a helluva lotta criminal investigations.Catspaw (aka Dragon Shaman, Warlock) You've cut a deal with something and agreed to serve it in exchange for power. And maybe a pet critter. All it asks is that you further it's cause, occasionally play fetch, and mebbe venture to the Astral Plane to check it for ghost ticks. But hey, you look really cool spitting fire.Crook (aka Rogue, Ninja, Scout) You're a criminal, or work for the gummint (which is just another kind of criminal). You lie, cheat, steal and sabotage your way to power basically. Not that everyone doesn't but you went to school for it.Environmentalist (aka Druid) You talk to trees and animals, and thanks to your magic they talk back (and are kind enough not to mention your lack of social skills). You have the options of being a summoner, healer, eco-warrior, pet lord or caster. You also spend lots of time alone in the wilderness, and as a result you might have a slight touch of the crazy.Backwoods Racist (Ranger) You reeeaally, really hate things not like you.Librarian: (aka Archivist) You might look prim and harmless, but you know everyone's secret shit. Many of you are secretly professional dommes or extortionists on the side.Mad Scientist You may not have friends, but you can always make some...literally. Plus since your gadgets can be mass produced your mooks are always loyal cause they get the niftiest toys.Magic Asskicker (aka Duskblade, Hexblade, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife) You've either learned a bit of magic or come by it due to a family curse and decided "Why shouldn't I use this to whoop ass and make money?"Magic Crook (aka Beguiler, Spellthief, Lurk, Psychic Rogue) Unlike most crooks you start with some minor magical powers (as opposed to hurriedly learning them later out of necessity).Martial Artist (aka Monk, Swordsage) You might not be a crazy old man living on a mountain yet, but your destiny points in that direction strongly.Priest (aka Cleric, Shugenja) You lead people in worship of some Gawd or other. Everyone loves you to your face while making jokes about you being a pedo or a sheep rapist behind your back. One of these days you'll lose your shit and ask said Gawd to whoop some ass. Which they may do anyway seeing as the Gawds are basically all candidates for the Jerry Springer show. Less of the traditional DND war priest and more cloistered cleric.Psychic (aka Binder) You allow yourself to be possessed for a fee, or for your religion, or because you have some serious issues. There's a lot of frauds who claim to be mediums, but sadly you are the real thing. We say sadly because when you manage to call up someone's dead loved one they inevitably say something like "Yer a useless shite son. Ye've always been a useless shite, ye'll always be a useless shite, and I long for the day when yer burnin' in Hell next to me." Shaman (aka Spirit Shaman, totemist). You keep telling people you can see the spirits. They might believe you if you'd stop eating shrooms and peyote.Pervert (sorcerer, wilder, Dragonfire Adept) One or your parents had an interspecies fetish polite society frowns on. Because of it you now have super powers, and are the target of significant social discrimination. People just seem to believe horrible things abotu you with no proof necessary, and it doesn't help that you burn down the occasional town in a fit of pique.Street Performer (Bard, Jester) You're an attention whore who refuses to make an honest living.Wrassler There is no problem so great it cannot be hammerlocked into submission.Clown: Vile entity from beyond space and time.Conduit: Magic or psionic Buffs have a greater than normal effect on you, and you have a chance to convert enemy spells/powers into self buffs.Lab Experiment: You ARE frankenstein's monster. You weren't born so much as made. And people still won't accept you as a sentient being, no matter how many of them you make stop living with your fist.Demigod: (Favored Soul) You have divine blood in the family, and an all powerful relative who makes your life hell.Psion: Specialist in one of the Psionic Disciplines.Wizard: (Wizard, Dread Necromancer, warmage, wu jen) Specialist in one of the magic schools.Saint: (healer) You are a healer despite no connection to any religion. Plus animals like you. Others in general find you difficult to hate, mostly because you're supposedly forbidden from giving them the ass beating they deserve.Murderhobo: The scourge of society, you are a self-absorbed rambler whose every action inevitably leads to mass destruction. Damage rolls are higher when you are near, tempers flare more easily, area of effect powers affect a bigger area. It's not something you do consciously (not that anyone believes that), it's just that a black cloud of destruction and despair follows you.Factotum: You are whatever you need to be at the moment. Usually so you can point at the party when you all get caught and say "I'm not with them."Avatar: (ardent, incarnate) You embody some cosmic principle, cause or other thingie.Shadowcaster: You have learned to manipulate shadows in not nice ways.Speaker: (Truenamer) You are slowly relearning the language of creation that was forbidden to mortals by the gods.Smith: (Artificer) You make really neat stuff.Runescribe: While Speakers learn the spoken version of the language of creation, you learn the written.

Some odd ideas I'm just gonna toss out to see what people like/hate the most:

Idea 1: Only BAB and ability modifiers add to attack rolls. Other bonuses to attack rolls add to the minimum roll, not the maximum. In short: Lets say you have a +1 from BAB, and a +1 from Str. You roll 1d20+2 to hit, and need to exceed their defenses. Now lets say you have a total of +8 in bonuses from various other sources. Your minimum roll is 11 (1+8+2), so no matter what you actually roll, 11 is the minimum result.

Idea 2: Defenses are not static, and all attacks are opposed checks. Both of you roll 1d20 plus mods and the higher result wins.

Idea3: Immunity will now be more along the lines of "Does not affect you unless your opponent is X HD higher than you."

Idea 4: Instead of a d20 plus modifiers, roll 3d6 plus modifiers, which also determine your damage. You take either the low, medium or high die as your damage rolls (if you roll doubles the dice stack as you have a critical). Class powers can change die type or amount.

Idea 5: Instead of CR, base XP upon how messed up the party is by encounter. For every per day/per encounter ability or one use/charged magic item they had to use they gain _ xp. For every party kill, or member reduced below a certain percentage of hit points they gain _xp.

Idea 6: Players may automatically reroll dice if they roll below x, where x is determined by level or class abilities.

The Gawds will be llike the Greek Gods: narcisisstic, vain, greedy, amoral sqabbling bastards who fuck up peoples lives. Your alignment will be less a reflection of your behavior than it is which of these goobers you have aligned yourself with. You may believe in their cause but that doesnt erase the possibility you're a hypocrite.

Lawful Good: You think the best way to further the cause of Good is to give the mortals a guiding hand by establishing and firmly following rules, because quite frankly they're too damn stupid to know right from wrong without you telling them. Lawful Good Powers include:

Donnar: Technically the God of War, but more realistically the god of endless ranting. Son of the Owl-Father and Braka.

Fyri God of the Sun and Fire. Son of the Owl-Father and Braka.

Lawful Evil: You champion the cause of legalism and rules. You want Good to establish a system in order to spread corruption via exploiting that system. Lawful Evil Powers include:

The Grigori: Ancient Devils predating te Gods. Currently patrons of the Ixitxachitl, Locathah and Crabmen,

Chaotic Good: You think the best way to further the cause of Good is to give the mortals free will, because after enough mistakes bite them in the ass they'll realize what the right thing to do is all by themselves. Chaotic Good Powers include:

Widget: Sponsors teh Gnomes and their automatons. Also deity of invention, alchemy and technology. Kind of hated by the more traditionalist Gawds. Dverg and Gargantunga's youngest son.

Aatman: Patron of the Jaanavar. Alien deity who is polite, repectful and sincerely wishes to enlighten all. In short he's a saint, and the other Gods cant stand him. God pf love, peace, enlightenment, etc.

Chaotic Evil: If there's no society or rules or structure you feel Good will founder, so you spread anarchy in the hopes it will lead to an Evil Utopia. Chaotic Evil Powers include:

The Black Lords: Creators of the Demons and sponsors of the Gnolls. Not Gods, but are of a similar power level.

Neutral Good: You believe you can further the cause of Good by doing the right thing, helping those in need, and quit interfering with their lives.

Django: Foreign God responsible for the rising of the human race, Also quite the party animal.

Neutral Evil: You believe that the cause of Evil will fail without you, so furthering your own goals also furthers Evil. Neutral Evil Powers include:

Gargantunga: Co-creator of the Elves and Dwarves, and the Owl-Fathers eldest daughter. Universally known as a spiteful bitch, she hates anything unlike her and is single handedly responsible for the Elves turn to Fascism. She believes the advent of Science! will render worship of the Gawds unnecessary, and works to exterminate it and it's practicioners. Currently taking advantage of her fathers disappearance by impersonating him as the Sky God by wearing a suit of enchanted armor.

Lawful Neutral: Law is all, it is the only reason for existence. Without structure there is no reason for existence, if existence continues at all. In short without knowing that everything is in it's place you piss yourself in fear. Lawful Neutral Powers include:

Gellir: Patron deity of Law well known for his pissy little bitch fits regarding rules. Son of Donnar and

Samhanach: Ruler of the underworld, patron of Goblins. Son of the Owl-Father and Kraka.

Chaotic Neutral: Rules of any sort are an attempt to impede your personal liberty. Morality and immorality are excuses to justify behavior that needs no justification. Chaotic Neutral Powers include:

Dverg: Co-creator of the Elves and Dwarves, and patron of the Dwarf race. Also Gargantunga's ex, and the main reason she hates Dwarves and Gnomes (i.e. they remind her of him). From a rival tribe of Gods, he sided with the Owl-Father in te inevitable war that killed his former people. God of the forge, runes and earth.

Seanathair: Cranky old man, patron of the Orcs. The Owl-Fathers Father, as well as the God of Wisdom.

Andraste: Patron of mermaids, aunt of Mataiodoxia. Goddess of the Sea, and a prophet.

Methysmenos: Patron of Minotaurs, Surviving member of the same tribe as Dverg. God of wine and drunkenness.

Mataiodoxia: Sister of Methysmenos, patron of the Sobek. Goddess of vanity, lust and fertility. And occasionally romance when she isn't feeling cynical.

Neutral: You don't want involved, you don't want involved, you don't want involved. You've been burned before, and now it's look out for number one. Neutral Powers include:

The Owl-Father: Overdeity responsible for fathering most of the Gods of Earth. After his wife Braka passed on he said to hell with it and retired without anyone's knowledge. He no longer answers prayers or gets involved, but if his daughter continues screwing things up he may re-appear. Called the Owl-Father due to his enduring obsession with the critters.

Kveldulfr: Goddess of the Moon. Son of the Owl-Father and a Grigori posing as his wife.

Asshole: Fuck Good and Evil and all that noise. You hate the Gods and hate the mortals and hate the Devils too, and oppose them all in turn. You're a vicious troll who exists only to ruin everyones day, and the entire known universe hates you, and you it.

Jotnar: Patron Deity of Giants and Monsters, known hellraiser and outcast. Even the Fiends don't like the level of drama he causes. Son of the Owl-Father and Kraka. God of strength.

Vamr: Patron Deity of Halflings, Son of the Owl-Father and Kraka. Trickster Deity.

Kraka: The Owl-Fathers ex-wife, and bitter survivor of the Gods War. She is vaguely related to Dverg. Goddess of death and misfortune.

Potential Race List (as a side note so I don't have to make a map for this setting I'm using the real world).

Elves: Absolute racist bastards who hate everything not as pale and pretty as they are. Similar to nazis, they've gone on a blitzkrieg across europe in order to stamp out 'evil'. Their definition of evil being the practice of both science and many forms of arcane power as the elves have lots of clerics/druids. They aren't very fond of psionics either, and want a return to the traditional ways of divine magic. Their claims to morality are odd since their connection to magic means that if they arent beheaded and burned after death it's almost a guarantee they become undead.

Gnomes: Mad scientists who have fled Europe for North America to escape enslavement and persecution by the Elves (the Gnomes are the Elves main target). Preferred classes are Mad Scientist and Lab Experiment. Magically inclined Gnomes tend towards librarian or Runesmith,

Dwarves: Brawling drunkards, who are split between Europe and North America. Some stayed behind because they like beating up Elves. Known for their hair trigger tempers, finely made beards, and their tendency to call anyone who mentions either a racist before whacking him with their combat stein. Formerly quite traditionalist they have become quite liberal since Dverg and Gargantunga split. Preferred classes are Smith and Runesmith with the occasional Cleric or Berserker.

Humans: Chased from Africa, they promptly escaped to europe and asia to be enslaved by the local rulers. Asia has finally let them be, but they had to fight their way out of Elven Europe to escape to the Americas. They tend towards being asskickers or crooks out of necessity, but they can be found trying their hand at just about anything.

Orcs: Natives of Russia, the Elves have never been quite able to displace them. Possibly Europe's last hope to stop the elven aggression. Many Orcs pursue some warlike profession, not because they want to, but because the elves give them little choice.

Kobolds: The lords of Asia, and secretly the mighty Dragons. Also paranoid as hell. Placed in Asia by the Gawds when they expelled their original servants from heaven, the Kobolds were originally dragons, but are now magically locked into mortal form. Or so everyone believes. A strange form of metaphysical sickness passes among them, loosening that magics hold, and allowing dragons to exist once more. Known for being Catspaws, Crooks, Librarians, Societal Outcasts, Demigods, and Avatars.

Goblinoids: South American immigrants who (say it with us now) fled Elven persecution. In fact much of Europe's Fey are now in southern america. Chased from europe over their embrace of arcane magic, they may not like their new home but at least its without elves. They alas, do share the elven predilection for rising from the grave. Most are environmentalists or arcane magic users.

Gnolls: Rulers of Africa, known for witchcraft and some truly evil shenanigans. The Elves dont speak of it but they modeled their system of slavery after the Gnolls despite their religious differences. Usually berserkers, blind fanatics, catspaws, conduits and murderhobos. Known both for becoming Undead and embracing the concept.

Giants: The rulers of Britain. Mostly because no one wants to go to the effort of tossing them out the way the Gods chucked them out of heaven. Relatively neutral in politics, every so often they decide to start drama just for te hell of it. Stereotyped as asskickers, berserkers, runescribes and environmentalists, they are just as likely to be demigods or avatars or transmogrifists.

Automatons: Robots created by the Gnomes. Created to be expendable foot soldiers for the elven armies, they were taken with the Gnomes as they fled Europe and subsequently given freedoms. Though they began life as lab experiments or asskickers, they wish to find a new purpose in life,

Locathah: Raiders who control most of the Pacific. They have a hands off policy on most Kobolds as tehy have no wish to fight Dragons (they are one of the ffew races to know the secrets of the Kobolds). Largely shunned by the other races for their devil worship. Mostly crooks, magic crooks, catspaws and priests.

Merfolk: Rulers of the Atlantic. Well, under the Atlantic anyway. Known for being very capricious and quite dangerous. It's this reputation that makes others leave them alone. That and their widespread for divine magic and undeadery.

Minotaurs Rulers of Greece and large chunks of the Mediterranean, where they live a life devoted to hedonism. Or would if they weren't raided by Locathah, Gnolls and Sobek alike, as well as being neighbors to alien monsters. The farmers pretty much had to grow up fast to defend themselves, and aren't happy with being warriors. On the plus side they breed fast and they're big. Plus an inordinate amount of them are Demigods...

Jaanavar: Deeply religious animal folk who are the rulers of India, and who seek to become divine as opposed to worshiping the Divine. A great many are Avatars.

Ixitxachitl: South American coastal problem children. A fairly primitive species corrupted by the Grigori who now act as a coastal blockade preventing travel from asia to the eastern americas, though no one knows for what reason. Mostly Catspaws, Psychics and Priests.

Crabmen: Coastal raiders who plague what would be the California coastline. They act to murder anyone reaching or departing the coastline. Mostly Berserkers, though strays find employment as asskickers or wrasslers.

Sobek: Egyptian crocodile men. Known mostly for their greed, avarice, jealousy and narcisissm, they are a species wide Jerry Springer show (which, sadly, only endears them to the Gods who find them entertaining). They dont find theft, combat or study to be worth the effort so prefer the use of magic of whatever sort.