39 Comments

Anonymous

Air operations in Libya have shown that Typhoon was the wrong aircraft for Europe and is the wrong aircraft for any country that gives importance to war capabilities :

Commander Nigel ‘Sharkey’ Ward, decorated for flying Harrier jump jets during the Falklands war, said:‘The Typhoon is an astronomically expensive aircraft that is ill-suited to any role outside UK airspace. ‘It is essentially a very expensive RAF sacred cow.’

Typhoon is a super expensive interceptor with limited capabilities, the poor design is incompatible with sustained multirole operations.

Clearly the marketing department of Eurofighter has succeeded where reality has shown otherwise. This is a clear message to India – look it may not do half the things we advertiose but look these are the goodies in store for you . At a price of course !! This is a troubled platform and neither Saudi Air Force, nor Austria or the RAf are happy. It doesnt do half the things it is supposed to do though at air shows its impressive. Sigh – we are now stuck with the only other "non combat prove" Rafale.

Anonymous

Anonymous

Will the Orders for Eurofighter go beyond 707? Even the British are finding it economically hard to absorb their quota of 232 aircraft.They have gone back on their commitment and instead would stop at 160 Typhoons. Italy has cut down its requiremnt from 121 to 96.Although Germany (180) and Spain (87) have no such plans but the Eurofighter isnt better than the Rafale as far A2G capability is concerned .Of course Saudi Arabia (72) and Austria(15) are the other export customers.Rafale is the best twin engined Multirole fighter as it has proved itself in Flight trials for the MMRCA and is likely to win the deal.If Dassault Rafale wins in India it would prompt countries like Brazil to go for the same. U.A.E. has almost decided on the Rafale and Malaysia, Kuwait might follow suit.

Firstly eurofighter 2020 is not for india its for turkey.It may be interesting to know that the first offer to join the Eurofighter consortium was made to turkey in 1985-1986, as part of a Tornado IDS deal with Britain. The Brits offered Turkey to participate in the EFA program as an equal partner if they decide to buy 40 Tornados. The deal did not materialize because of disputes over funding and commercial credit (Thatcher did not want to open low-interest credits to Turkey, which had financial difficulties those years, plus possible political concerns).

The Italians, who are responsible of marketing the Typhoon to Turkey are pushing extremely hard to promote the fighter. But they have minimal chance unless a radical change of mind occurs within the TurAF HQ.

By the way, I think naming the fighter as “Typhoon 2020? is an indirect message to TurAF, meaning it is intended to replace “F-4E 2020? (Terminator), which makes no sense, since the latter is going to be replaced by F-35 Lightning II.

the terminator

Looks like the armchair fighter jocks are better informed than the professionals in the IAF.

Setting aside the jingoistic rant for the fighters by the supporters, we should realize that the end-user has down selected both the European birds. Which will finally clinch the deal is yet to be seen. Wonder whether our take on any of these fighters would in any way sway the choice.

Rafale is a very good fighter, no doubts about it. What is pertinent to note is this fighter has not been bought by any other country. It is only used by the French. Moreover the French offer of TOT should be taken with a pinch of salt. The scorpeane submarines ordered by India have been inordinately delayed because the French have been giving excuses citing MDL was not able to absorb the high technology.

Production of the Rafale in India could also be delayed under those reasons and price escalations should be factored in. The obscene demand for refurbishment of the mirage fighters which is close to a new fighter also shows that the French are as greedy as the Russians.

Anyway hope the IAF gets whichever fighter it has really selected as soon as possible in order to arrest the depletion in its numbers and be battle ready for any eventuality.

Anonymous

As a foreigner without any ties with any MMRCA contenders I can tell you one thing. In case of a EF win, India will be the main sponsor for any "roadmap 20XX" upgrades. I don't know if EF Typhoon is a worthy airwar asset but one thing is sure. Its development has never been finished and got derailed by the end of Cold War and massive defense budget cuts made by EF programme participants including the UK.P.S.It wasn't any of MiGs meant for India that crashed. It was the original prototype, b/n 947.

Hey shiv can you post some info about the new armored vehicles being procured by Indian army and paramilitary forces. I have seen many different types of vehicles coming into news,new mine protected as well as bulletproof,but i don't think any of them was actually mass produced.Various companies including TATA, Mahindra ,Lakshmi Cotsyn…have shown their vehicles but is any of them inducted?It would be very nice to see info about them.

Anonymous

hahaha there are some who dont like criticism of DODO, like the ratshakers. Any negetive comments about DRDO automatically makes you a paki.. so in this case i guess IAF is filled with pakis, right RATshakers? tbh these RATshakers are worse than PSU morons.

Artanis

@anonymous of first comment. Will you care to enlighten us why Eurofighter is not good? Are you going to show us any proof/finding or we are supposed to blindly believe you?Thing is in real tests Eurofighter has proven its capability time and again. Its air-superiority capability is well known to people who actually study defense related matters. I would encourage you to read about tests and exercises that Eurofighter has taken part in eg the test of Eurofighter Vs F-15.

Anonymous

Do you really think that the F 35 is a proper aircraft for India or any NATO member? its going to be very costly with limited air superiority capability.I have to say the same får Thypoon. Rafale is a better choice, one country project is always cheaper. The same with Gripen. Much easier to get things done. if a lot of countries hare involved cost are to high and management are to complex and inefficient.

Anonymous

How can one judge the TRUE capabilities of a fighter in the "threat" scenario of Libya?Anyone trying to derive an assessment from such an environment must be a true idiot.No airborne defence, hardly any surface-to-air missiles. Where are the stressing factors to properly judge the potential of a fighter? Nowhere in sight!!!It Is like sending a PhD graduate to a primary school for an examination and then boast how well he or she has done! Please give me a break and get real.Fighters of the class of a Typhoon would show their capability and usefulness in very high stress scenarios as those confronting India today…and tomorrow.

Anonymous

How can one judge the TRUE capabilities of a fighter in the "threat" scenario of Libya?Anyone trying to derive an assessment from such an environment must be a true idiot.No airborne defence, hardly any surface-to-air missiles. Where are the stressing factors to properly judge the potential of a fighter? Nowhere in sight!!!It Is like sending a PhD graduate to a primary school for an examination and then boast how well he or she has done! Please give me a break and get real.Fighters of the class of a Typhoon would show their capability and usefulness in very high stress scenarios as those confronting India today…and tomorrow.

Anonymous

Anonymous

Typhoons enforce the no-fly zone. No big deal. Typhoons carry out surface attack on fixed and mobile targets with precision guided weapons. With great accuracy and success. No big deal.They fly their five-six hour missions, connect with the in-theatre ISR assets, air refuel, come back. And do it again. And again. With great reliability. Since March 2011. No big deal.What is your problem mate?

Anonymous

Since day 1, British Tornados outshine the Typhoons everyday in Libya, they do a better job for a fraction of Typhoons' costs. The capabilities of the Typhoon are extremely limited comparatively to its very high costs. Typhoon's commercial fog of hype has been dispelled by a real military intervention.

TYPHOON: multirole optimised for air superiority. Initially fielded for A-A and now moving into A-G, but still early days. New platform with tremendous potential (similar to F-15A -C and E story). In Libya does A-A and A-G.

An LGB dropped from a Typhoon or a Tornado killing a tank achieve the same operational effect. Or am I wrong?

SUMMARY: a Tornado was, is and will always remain an honest bomb truck. If it had to operate in a contested airspace it would require heavy escort. Cannot do any A-A whatsoever, except in extremis self-defence with two SRM.With Typhoon you get the best air superiority platform in the world (bar the Raptor). Already started the growth path in A-G and will continue to develop it going forward. Then you have a bomb truck (with more payload than Tornado) with self-escorting capabilities.

Anonymous

Sorry fanboy but Typhoon is a dud, a diva not a warhorse. This is the daily reality, even the British acknowledge this fact and acknowledge that they have poured hundreds of millions into this aircraft with little results (reports by the Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office). So, you can keep your false excuses for yourself.

Anonymous

Fanboy, diva, workhorse? Where are the facts? Bullshit is not good enough in a serious debate.I remember the first years of Tornado in service life: no spare parts (few were ordered!), a very expensive hangar queen, cannot do anything, and so on by a legion of idiots who had no clue what they were talking about. Same story today. There seem to be no shortage of idiots nowadays, as your postings so clearly demonstrate.

Anonymous

The RAF’s over-budget Typhoon fighter jets are being deployed in Libya on missions for which they are ill-equipped because military chiefs are anxious to justify their high cost, The Times has learnt.

Defence sources said that attacks on Libyan tanks by the RAF’s multimillion-pound Typhoons were a public relations stunt not driven by operational need.

A source said that RAF Command was “increasingly desperate” for the publicity value of the RAF’s newest aircraft destroying enemy vehicles in Libya. “It was inferred from on high that this needed to happen,” said the source, who wishes to remain anonymous…………………

According to figures released by the RAF the Tornado GR4 costs £33,912 per flying hour while the Eurofighter Typhoon costs £85,895. ………………………………

Initial lessons learned from air operations over Libya have been both encouraging and embarrassing for European air forces. The Royal Air Force has found itself dependent on capabilities that the U.K. government plans to cancel, and France found itself with the wrong weapons.

While the RAF believes it is too soon to talk about lessons learned from the ongoing Libya operation, it is clear from April speeches by Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton, the chief of air staff, and his deputy, Air Vice Marshal Barry North, that platforms scheduled for termination have been of vital importance. Dalton told the Royal Aeronautical Society that Britain’s support of the NATO no-fly zone, known as Operation Ellamy by the U.K. Defense Ministry, “has proved further validation of the Combat Istar (intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance) concept, with a layering of—and cross-cueing between—dedicated intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance and Combat Istar assets and capabilities achieving a synergy that is greater than the sum of their parts.”

That synergy is provided by three Istar platforms—E-3D Sentry, Sentinel R1 and Nimrod R1—of which only E-3D remains part of the RAF’s long-term future. The electronic intelligence-gathering Nimrod R1 was due to leave service at the end of March. The capability is to be replaced by the acquisition of three RC-135W Rivet Joint aircraft, which the RAF will call Air Seekers. The first of these is still undergoing conversion work in the U.S., and the platform is not due to be operational until 2014. The Nimrod’s out-of-service date was postponed because it was needed over Libya. DTI understands that the two aircraft will go out of service on June 28, but any capability gap will be short. Joint RAF and U.S. Air Force crews will co-crew USAF-owned Rivet Joint aircraft ahead of delivery of the U.K.-owned airframes. British aircrew have been training with their American counterparts at Offutt AFB, Neb., since early this year. Co-crewed operations will begin in the summer.

Less clear is the future of the capability provided by the RAF’s Astor (airborne stand-off radar) platform, Sentinel R1. Sentinel’s ability to switch between synthetic aperture radar (SAR) and ground-moving target indicator (GMTI) modes makes it the fulcrum of the “scan, cue, focus” methodology the RAF practices. In their speeches, Dalton and North outlined how, on a hypothetical “typical” Ellamy mission, Sentinel performs initial assessment of both wide and specific areas of interest to inform further investigation by other platforms, as well as pointing out possible targets when in GMTI mode.

The coalition government’s Strategic Defense and Security Review of 2010 opted to retire the Sentinel force (comprising five Raytheon-modified Bombardier Global Express business jets and associated systems) once operations in Afghanistan end. While this date is not yet known, neither is the route by which the capability will be replaced. The Defense Ministry has a requirement for a future unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), called Scavenger, which is expected to include key elements of the Sentinel capability, but no preferred solution is due to be identified until 2012, so an operational system is some years away.etc….

Anonymous

Coming back to the topic, I don't there is anyone among us who knows the MMRCA better than the Pilots who flew them. Saying that a fighter Pilot is getting impressed by an advertisement would be like saying that we believe our Hero Honda bikes can fly by looking into advertisements. IAF knows what its doing. The men and women in the force have put these machines to test and then only come to select Typhoon and Rafale. This is not a personal choice of colour of design that one is doing but a matter of winning and losing a war. And thinking that men who are going to fly will not be thinking through is not wise.

In my humble opinion, if Typhon and Rafale have made it to next stage of evaluation is because they are better than the rest. And I would rather go by the people in IAF than one individual or few independent people expressing their thoughts.