The government is now referring to our Social Security checks as a “Federal Benefit Payment.” This isn’t a benefit – its earned income! Not only did you contribute to Social Security but so did your employers.

It totaled over 15% of your income BEFORE taxes and you paid income taxes on every penny. If you averaged $30K per year over your working life, you’ve invested close to $180,000 in Social Security. If you calculate the future value of your monthly investment in social security ($375/month, including both your and your employer’s contributions) at a meager 1% interest rate compounded monthly, after 40 years of working you'd have saved more than $1,300,000 dollars! This 1.3 Million dollars is your personal investment.

Upon retirement, if you took out only 3% per year, you'd receive $39,318 per year, or $3,277 per month (Or $78,636.00 per year for a husband and wife). The $3,277 per month is almost three times more than today’s average Social Security benefit... excuse me, CHECK of $1,230 per month. (According to the Social Security Administration)

Your retirement fund would last over 33 years (until age 98 if you retired at age 65)! I can only imagine how much more comfortable the middle class could live in retirement if our government had just invested your money in low-risk interest-earning accounts.

Instead, Washington pulled off a bigger Ponzi scheme than Bernie Madoff ever did. They spent YOUR money on gold plated toilet seats or else to buy votes to keep themselves in office. If they knew it or if they ever cared, they “forgot” that it was YOUR money that they were taking.

Also they didn’t pay interest on the debt they assumed. Now they tell us that your money is running out and now that you can’t work, your retirement fund won’t support you much longer. Is it your fault they mismanaged, misused and misappropriated your retirement investment?

And now, to add insult to injury, they’ve started calling it a “benefit,” as if you never worked your whole life and earned every penny of it. Just because they “borrowed” your money without your permission, doesn't mean that your retirement investment is a donation to charity! Will you take a stand like a proud American, or are you going to take it laying down? :-x :-x

As usual, right wing math doesn’t add up….unfortunately. If you contributed $375 a month to SS for 40 years at 1% APR, after 40 years the sum of that investment would be $221,000 NOT 1.3 million. That 1.3 million calculation is another fantasy from bee keepers fantasy land. I wish my bankers used bee keeper math on my account :)

Quote

The $3,277 per month is almost three times more than today’s average Social Security benefit... excuse me, CHECK of $1,230 per month.

That’s because your math is off by more than 3x.

Quote

I can only imagine how much more comfortable the middle class could live in retirement if our government had just invested your money in low-risk interest-earning accounts.

If you think you can invest $375 a month and end up being a millionaire, then why the HECK didn’t you do that with some of your other income? I thought beeks were all about personal responsibility. Why are you counting on the government when your math says it is so easy to make 1.3 million?

Now they tell us that your money is running out and now that you can’t work, your retirement fund won’t support you much longer. Is it your fault they mismanaged, misused and misappropriated your retirement investment?

You are right here too. However we’ve all known since the days of Reagan’s massive debt creation that the money was going to run out. It would indeed be foolish to count on the government. It would have been even more foolish to let Dubya “invest” what was left on Wall Street!

I agree with your last assertion too, but the best we can probably realistically hope for is that the program will eventually be axed. Like with any business that goes bankrupt, when the day of reckoning for the US occurs (ie bankruptcy), the ax is pretty indiscriminate in lopping off debts that simply can’t be repaid.

you assume 1% because that's what our current idiots are holding us to. over the last 40 years, i have gotten returns as high as 15% on safe investments. granted, that didn't last to long, but off the top of my head, i'd guess that the average over the last 40 years has been closer to 5%...maybe better, and that's with no risk. on my higher risk investments, i have made even more. and i did invest outside SSI even when we were poor as dirt and it was only a couple of bucks a month. anyone can if they put their mind to it, but how much easier would it be if the government were not taking and "investing" that for you?

the problem with SSI is less those who have paid into it, and more those who have not and still draw. a man dies and his wife and 4 kids each draw a check. a child is disabled, and regardless of parents income, the kid gets a check. work a few years and throw your back out, you get a check. go on meds for depression, anxiety, etc., get a check. there is a whole segment of the legal industry dedicated to getting people SSI payments.

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

you assume 1% because that's what our current idiots are holding us to.

No, I didn’t pick the crazy number of 1%, the Kingbee did!

Quote

over the last 40 years, i have gotten returns as high as 15% on safe investments.

GM is still up 10% for the year. Maybe we should have let Dubya “invest” all bee keeper money in GM stock? :-D

While right wing math doesn’t add up, I do agree with you that the program should be reformed and/or axed. I don’t expect to see any of my money back. Not happy about that, but it wouldn’t be the first time I had an “investment” go sour.

if i had been invested in GM i would have been screwed out of my investment by the governments illegal interference in the bankruptcy. the stock may currently be up, but it is still a money loser for the tax payer.

Quote

Not happy about that, but it wouldn’t be the first time I had an “investment” go sour.

it's not an investment when you don't have a choice.

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

As much as y’all like to complain about SS, its Medicare and the baby boomers poor health habits that will really bankrupt the nation. You know, the same demographic that tends to keep bees and preach personal responsibility. ;)

it's all of the above. those same boomer bought the myth of the Population Bomb and now expect to be supported by the kids they did not have.

it is interesting that you bring up poor health habits, although i would argue that they can't be too poor or these folks wouldn't be living so long....the interesting part is how you think that since you are paying for it, the boomers health habits are your business. won't it be = interesting to see how that line of thinking plays out under obama care if it survives, and under the eventual single payer system that is desired by so many.

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

BB, I have whipped and thrashed the numbers every which way and I can't get them to come out much less than 2 million regardless of what data I use. You are using 1% annual intrest compounded monthly, not 1% monthly intrest. Now if I correct for inflation at a miserly 5% it goes through the roof, also be advised that just because you turn 65 and retire doesn't mean you withdraw you retirement fund and keep it at home in a fish bowl so you can watch it for the next 33 years.

That is the problem with the economy under Obama, he said himself that he is not good at math but he chides others for a poor knowledge of mathematics when it is obviously not the case, while all the while he is driving out economic SUV at top speed further and further into the ditch.

http://www.bsmotoring.com/storypage.php?autono=5905Here is a little tidbit you good folks in Ohio and Michigan may need to know about before you vote. Obama Motors (Chrysler-Jeep-Fait) are going to take their O'bailout dough, pull up stakes and move all Jeep manufacturing, lock, stock, barrel to China. How's that Hopey Changy thingy working out for you?

http://economyincrisis.org/content/a-lost-decade-for-nearly-every-stateAs Michigan has lost over 18% of their household income, Washington the Distric of Columbia has gained a like amount mostly on the strength of Federal Government hiring that averages $130,000 per job counting benefits. Both states or either side of Washington the District of Columbia, Maryland and Virgina have also benefited from Obama's "SPREADING THE WEALTH AROUND... NOT! The only other states that are doing better are Lousiana, Wyoming, Nebraska, West Virginia, Montana, and North and South Dakota. These states are only doing better than the country as a whole because of Obama's contrived energy shortage that is forcing every man, woman, and child to pay more for energy just like Obama promised you he would do back in 2007. My estimated friend BlueBee has already admitted in a previous post that there are a lot of West Virginia folks cashing Mail Box Money Checks because of all the Natural Gas drilling and fracking going on their land now. Just this week Obama stoped even more oil drilling in Alaska.

As the above link describes, Michigan lost $1,500 hundred dollars combined under Presidents Bush and Clinton (Between 2000 and 2007) but Michigan dropped a bruising $6,100 in take home pay during just the first three years of the current occupant's missrule, 2009, 2010, and 2011. Say what you will this Depression is Obama's Depression as sure as the last Depression belonged to Herbert Hoover. I think it was Albert Einstein who said something about the insane repeating failed actions? Better look it up BB before its too late.

The workers in Michigan have lost almost 20% of their income and counting since 2000. Still the Federal, State, and local governments keep loading down, larding up, and smearing down industry, especially the auto industry with more rules, more regulations, and more mandates. When will it end? It will end when Detroit and all the rest of Michigan's Lower Peninsular is once again a long grass prairie or forrest like it was before the French first sat foot on it. Michigan's only other chance for positive change is on November 6Th.

The smart money always says that the rich get rich and the poor get poorer. I therefore find it telling that it is mostly the super rich who are funding Obama's campaign. But since Obama has been on the job (January 2009 till now) the Middle Class is down 4% on the old paycheck stub while the poorest Americans have lost a STAGGERING 7% of their income and as inflation begins to pick up more steam, everyone will quickly become poorer and poorer and poorer every week if not literally poorer every hour.

Kingbee: Just need to correct you on one little thingy, Chrysler Corp. Will be building Jeeps in China next year,"BUT" They will not be shutting down their plant here! Just expanding their over seas operation.Where it will go from there i can only hope. :-D

Logged

Carl-I have done so much with so little for so long i can now do something with nothing!

How many people get SS and did NOT PAY IN TO at it all to Social Security :?

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may remember,involve me and I'll understand" Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways." John F. KennedyFranklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

As much as y’all like to complain about SS, its Medicare and the baby boomers poor health habits that will really bankrupt the nation. You know, the same demographic that tends to keep bees and preach personal responsibility. ;)

Exactly. Plus, SS constantly getting robbed for other programs. It's self sufficient so far, if it weren't for that.

I think there shouldn't be a break from paying into SS once you hit a certain income level. Doesn't make sense to me. Let the extremely wealthy pay on ALL their income.

Logged

The pedigree of honey Does not concern the bee; A clover, any time, to him Is aristocracy. ---Emily Dickinson

Doesn't make sense to me. Let the extremely wealthy pay on ALL their income.

why do you think that makes sense?

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

What we have here is a failure to communicate. An education system contructed and manipulated to maintain a steady flow of union dues to a politcal party can hardly be expected to; or desire, to give students any grounding in logic. It has been going on for fifty years I know of and we see the results. In the sixties Look who were described as the villians? Roosevelts malfeasance and inability managed to turn a sharp crash into a ten year depression. Hoover and Coolidge were; and are still being scapegoated. Now Bush who was a good liberal social spender will be scapegoated for Bathhouse Barry's incompetence and hard ideology. Roosevelt was touted for his pragmatism which translated to none of it working. I guess we get to relive it all. I see the bargain is still getting better in the market!

because the person with the higher income paying more into the program will never get what they paid in, out. what you are advocating is more welfare...although that's pretty much what SSI has already become for many.

you want to people who make more, to pay for those who don't. just say what you mean.

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

It does strike me as something a civilized society does. Better yet, those making over $100,000 don't get anything at all. SS was set up to keep poor seniors from starving/freezing to death. Why on earth would it need to fund the retirement of the wealthy also?

I'm far from wealthy. I am not counting on SS to get me through retirement. DH and I have been setting money aside since the year we were married for that reason.

Logged

The pedigree of honey Does not concern the bee; A clover, any time, to him Is aristocracy. ---Emily Dickinson

and i don't want poor seniors to start or freeze. however, that's not what SSI does now, is it?

just off the top of my head, here's what i am seeing among people i know.

-throw out your back? draw SSI disability for life. -one parent dies in a home with an income over 200,000 a year + insurance from death, home, etc.? kids draw SSI until age of 21 and surviving spouse draws survivors benefits.-want a new and expensive horse trailer? cash in insurance policies that were for retirement and buy the trailer. you have calculated that the SSI the two of you will draw, will be quite nice.-have a child with a disability? never mind that you work for the state and have great medical benifits and a really good income. the child will draw SSI for life.

this in my small circle of acquaintances in my small town. before you take more money from people, maybe reforms are in order?

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

So, let's revamp the system rather than throw it out entirely or underfund it. Same with other welfare. I'm just saying that historically SS was to prevent actual death or impoverishment. Not subsidize a nice retirement for people fully able to do so themselves.

Same with crop subsidies. The current system is NOT reflecting the original intent. Exactly opposite, actually.

So, yes, reform is definitely in order.

Logged

The pedigree of honey Does not concern the bee; A clover, any time, to him Is aristocracy. ---Emily Dickinson

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

And I asked for higher taxes where? I thought it was conservative thinking that said if you want something, you have to pay for it. Responsible fiscality and all that.

I think it would be awesome (if unrealistic) to clean up a lot of government programs and systems, get rid of the waste, and more fully fund that which needs funding. Improve education, expand access to healthcare, clean up the environment, build up a rainy day account. But that's just my dream, and probably most of our dreams.

Logged

The pedigree of honey Does not concern the bee; A clover, any time, to him Is aristocracy. ---Emily Dickinson

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

How about just being taxed on "all" income? The wealthy will never let it happen.

that's not so. it's a proposal that has been around, mainly on the right, for many years. i certainly support it. the left will not support it. they want exclusions for to many things. they would not tax SSI, welfare, low income, etc. i would tax it all.

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

Here's the thing--The more you tax SSI, low-income earners, welfare recipients, etc., the more likely they are to need the very programs you're providing them. Or those on the fringes (not yet needing them) move into the needy category.

For example, when DH and I were newly married and VERY low income earners, had we been taxed at a higher rate, it's possible we could have moved (if we had no family support) into a category of employees needing govt assistance. By not taxing our meager income much, we were able to stay self sufficient. We didn't contribute a ton of tax $, but we also used no tax $ in the form of assistance.

So, tax those who can afford it and who won't come to need govt assistance by being taxed. Why tax those already needy or borderline needy?

Logged

The pedigree of honey Does not concern the bee; A clover, any time, to him Is aristocracy. ---Emily Dickinson

So, tax those who can afford it and who won't come to need govt assistance by being taxed. Why tax those already needy or borderline needy?

because people who have no skin in the game don't care how the game is played. they are just fine with obama phones, and "stimulus" because it's all being done with others money. why pay any attention to what is being done as long as it's not costing you anything?

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

Under a Georgist "single Tax" system all citizens would receive an "equal" share dividend, effectively wiping out the so-called Welfare system some so desperately love to hate around here, that is until they need something :roll:

For a nearby example see Alaska and the citzen dividend provided to all Alaskans from Big Oil. For more, see Denmark and on and on..........There are many.

Those too lazy to make something of themselves would NOT be dependant on anything (whether the government, their friends or neighbors) more than their "equal" share of the Single Tax.

A far cry from the way we currently allow the "self-appropriators" of our society to reap the majority of the rewards and riches (profits).

Those with ambition could still make a killing (get rich) by their extraction of "our" planets resources, including plants, minerals (oil, coal, gas, gold, copper..etc) and human.

Movement toward a "single tax" system is the only way to make modern life on Earth an equitable or fair system. If there's another I'm not aware of it.

AGAIN: The wealthy will NEVER allow it unless "We the People" demand it and as long as we stay divided over petty nonsensical issues........ THEY WIN.

There are very twisted and sinister reasons why we are not taught Georgist economics in any university in America.

Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

the reason your single tax system would never happen is that we are taxed to feed the government. in addition, you have to have revenue sources = to the amount you wish to redistribute. AK works because they have oil. if you are going to do it on a national level, i'm not sure you can cover 300 million people that way. Denmark is a pretty tiny country. their tax system is the = of a tax system in a pretty small state.

Quote

Movement toward a "single tax" system is the only way to make modern life on Earth an equitable or fair system.

there is a difference between equitable and fair. it's pretty easy to make things equitable but in the process, fairness goes out the door. your version of equitable is still redistribution. redistribution, no matter how you dress it, is theft of the work and profit of one, for the benefit of another.

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

When I see that FICA tax come out of my check I smile because I know that money is paying the bills of my wife's 90 year old grandfather who has no other retirement plan, worked 60 years farming to feed 5 kids and had nothing left over for retirement.

I have other plans for retirement. Roths, property, investments.... What year was the Flemming V nestor ruling that stated that FICA was a tax and just because you pay in does not entitle you to a benefit payment? 1960? I think we should all have a grasp on that reality by now.

I have a choice... I can move out of the country if I don't like the tax system... But my impression is that they are worse in most other places... that have cars, running water and electricity.

No being is more 'entitled' to the wealth of the Earth than any other being. That's the FIRST entitlement that needs adjusting, long before any others discussed these days.

The air, the water AND the land (what's above and below) belong to all inhabitants.

What we have now is a direct consequense of rampent greed and it is "greed" that we feed Kathyp, not governments (or even people, really), unless you mean our governments feed greed too. Likely not the same way as I do though.

There is no rational argument against the "Single Tax" those who try, don't know Henry George and don't know the Single Tax (or don't want to know).

Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Several single tax theorists/economists have proclaimed that "if" the entire planet embraced a "single tax" system it would provide a monthly dividend between $2-5,000 to every man, woman and child on Earth.

The alternative (what we have now) is endless despair, poverty and War, which fits the profile we've been handed by our Slave Masters who manipulate and encourage our divisions, divisions that when looking at the big picture, mean little to nothing to the masses.

That should give you some idea how much is 'stolen' from us on a regular basis by the "self-appropriators" among us.

Industrialist's exploit considerably more than just oil and currently reap a disgustingly criminal and unequal portion of the profits that rightfully could/should be shared by all, effectively ending poverty.

Why do you think its called "filthy" rich?

Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

No being is more 'entitled' to the wealth of the Earth than any other being.

i know i asked this before and i know i didn't get an answer, but hope spring eternal.....how do you see this being implemented? can you kind of give me a sketch of what kind of government, or oversight, etc. and who would see to it that all the earth was fairly shared and all the people fairly rewarded?

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

no, i think you kept telling me to look it up. maybe i am confusing you. any plan needs some structure. i'd like to know the structure of what you are proposing. how do you take money. how do you redistribute money. who controls what? how do you choose who will be in charge of all this redistribution.

design me a kingdom and tell me how it's ruled.

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....