Before people actually listen to Constellations rabid stupidity, I am not promoting Orcs being some Genocidal bullies who destroy and Pillage the world around them. I am talking about a Horde that doesn't get Pushed and does nothing, I am talking of a Horde who pushes back.

When did that happen under Thrall?

People are acting like Thrall was some kind of hippy pacifist instead of just a reasonable orc who wanted to see an end to the pointless war and suffering that has wracked the world since the franchise started. And Garrosh doesn't push back, he randomly attacks anything in his sight.

Orcs not being pushed around is great. But what Garrosh is doing is far more than 'not being pushed around.' He's going too far, and is the opposite extreme from Thrall. Taking resources you need to survive, fine. Trying to completely drive another race from their ancestral homes and claim all of it for yourself? Not good.

I don't get how the Orcs are being pushed around at all. The Alliance never exacted tribute from the Orcs. They didn't waltz into Horde towns, loot and pillage them for the hell of it, then kill anyone whom resisted. The Alliance doesn't trust the Horde. They've got countless reasons to not trust them, the main one being every time they do, they've been blindsided by them. And they've yet to return the favour. Closing trade in retaliation, for yet another betrayal, and resisting invasion is a far cry from pushing any one around.

You argued through an entire that that Orcs were weaker than Night elves, Then Tauren were weaker than night elves, and that Trolls were slower AND than night elves. When confronted about it? You used ONE QUOTE from Grom who said they fought savagely, for elves. Just let this sink in to people, You thought, that Tauren and Orcs.. were WEAKER than Night Elves.

As for Tyrande, she didn't take caluclated risks, she "Followed Elune's path" this included

- Killing watchers to free Illidan after her Husband told her not to do so.
- Getting trapped inside a demon infested forest
- Refusing to side with the Alliance and Horde in the Wake of the Burning Legion, for Once she listened to Malfurion.
- Not wishing to give up her immortality to save the world, and took convincing by her Husband to do so.

She was not smart, she was Angry, reckless and impulsive.

All you can think of about the Night elves doing something wrong is.... the Druids didn't want to get involved? Clearly you have not read their history.

Martial, primal. You don't even know what you want with night elves, you want them back to Warcraft 3 standards, then they were barbarian-like, as much as the Orcs.

Alliance Quests were ten times more fun than Horde Quests, with often better hubs too. Let's not forget the capital cities that were more than tents, huts or a circle hub.

You whine again about the Horde faction lore, this is because the Horde is undergoing needed development, beforehand, the Alliance was much bigger and much more powerful. A thread years ago mentioned this. The Horde before cataclysm had nothing in the way of equaling Gnome or Orcish tech beyond goblin mercenaries, or the Numbers of Humans.

As for Velen, let's put the simple, at least you have seen all your faction leaders in game.

A bit off topic, but I agree about Tyrande. People I know get so up in arms about her getting a lesson in patience from Varian, but I just think 'when the hell was she patient back in wc 3?'

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

Hm. Under Baine, Vol'jin, even someone like Nazgrim, you could have a Warchief willing to shove when shoved back, but who isn't so froth-mouthing shithouse crazy that he wouldn't be willing to pursue diplomacy when the situation calls for it.

Baine, Vol'jin Nazgrim or even that New General guy who has been promoted every expansion seem to work, Hell Even Rexxar.

Another Thrall who sits back and seems to do nothing but peace talks is not what the Horde needs, it needs a WARChief, if that's defend from war or waging it, they should be prepared for it.

I have argued my points, constantly, sourcing them and so on. I get confronted with the religion of Horde that refuses to "believe" written lore. I think the solution is putting the Fiend on ignore. Nothing worthwhile has ever been posted by him with respect to anything.

all i read from you in this thread was pointless flame wars sarcasm and turning the thread into a giant the horde is sooo bad safe my children discussion ^^

Im pretty impressed how alliance fanboys actually believe orcs would get their wood elsewhere if they can kill elves for it. After all on of the hordes purposes is to protect its people from the alliance whitch did a lot of innocent killing/pillaging themselves there is no good vs evil in warcraft lore.

I don't get how the Orcs are being pushed around at all. The Alliance never exacted tribute from the Orcs. They didn't waltz into Horde towns, loot and pillage them for the hell of it, then kill anyone whom resisted. The Alliance doesn't trust the Horde. They've got countless reasons to not trust them, the main one being every time they do, they've been blindsided by them. And they've yet to return the favour. Closing trade in retaliation, for yet another betrayal, and resisting invasion is a far cry from pushing any one around.

Very true. Thrall didn't stop people from killing the leftovers of Daelin Proudmoore's men in Durotar. Didn't stop the warsong clan in Ashenvale. He refused to hand over horde criminals to Varian in The Shattering, all he's done is try to avoid open war, he never let the Alliance just walk over the Horde. Some just tend to interpret 'not letting you run wild' as 'bow down to the mighty alliance.'

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

Baine, Vol'jin Nazgrim or even that New General guy who has been promoted every expansion seem to work, Hell Even Rexxar.

Another Thrall who sits back and seems to do nothing but peace talks is not what the Horde needs, it needs a WARChief, if that's defend from war or waging it, they should be prepared for it.

Thrall was always prepared for war. Even when Orgrimmar was first being BUILT, before the Horde actually had major infrastructure in Durotar, he fought and decimated Proudmoore's forces. Again you're confusing "trying to prevent war" with "passive" when you couldn't be farther from the truth.

People are acting like Thrall was some kind of hippy pacifist instead of just a reasonable orc who wanted to see an end to the pointless war and suffering that has wracked the world since the franchise started. And Garrosh doesn't push back, he randomly attacks anything in his sight.

Bael Modr destroying a Tauren village on the Horde Doorstep.
Warsong camps under attack for taking lumber.
Northwatch Hold sitting in Horde territory.
Dwarves screwing over the Frost Wolves.

These are all problems the Heroes needed to solve, Thrall didn't do anything to stop these, with Doomhammer or with Diplomacy.

My question was always, who not import wood from Silverpine? The forsaken have a whole forested area there. If you need wood so badly, import it from your allies instead of raiding Ashenvale where they chop it faster than they can use it and it rots.

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

Bael Modr destroying a Tauren village on the Horde Doorstep.
Warsong camps under attack for taking lumber.
Northwatch Hold sitting in Horde territory.
Dwarves screwing over the Frost Wolves.

These are all problems the Heroes needed to solve, Thrall didn't do anything to stop these, with Doomhammer or with Diplomacy.

He also doesn't stop the warsong from harvesting lumber. He didn't stop horde from seeking revenge in Bael'Modan or Northwatch. And if you're talking about alterac valley, when did the dwarves screw them over? The dwarves came in and Drek'thar killed them all without warning.

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

all i read from you in this thread was pointless flame wars sarcasm and turning the thread into a giant the horde is sooo bad safe my children discussion ^^

Yes, in this thread.

Im pretty impressed how alliance fanboys actually believe orcs would get their wood elsewhere if they can kill elves for it. After all on of the hordes purposes is to protect its people from the alliance whitch did a lot of innocent killing/pillaging themselves there is no good vs evil in warcraft lore.

Welcome to the forums, you've clearly got new and insightful commentary. Please cite the bold.

Originally Posted by Airon

well i guess the bloodelves joined the horde cause they betrayed the humans ... that mean hordes always doing mean stuff
i just cant take u seriously sry

All he ever said he did was talk to Rexxar about shit with the Blackrock and Dragons and he was keeping an eye on the Burning Blade. I don't recall him doing ANYTHING about actually preparing for war.

Because WoW did a shit job of storytelling from classic until wrath of the lich king, when we actually began to see sparks of war. We don't see him preparing for war because he was ALREADY prepared for war. He was preparing for war back when Orgrimmar was being built. He could have marched out with an army whenever he wanted.

You also forget Warcraft III... it's not like Thrall changed any time between then and WoW.

I don't get how the Orcs are being pushed around at all. The Alliance never exacted tribute from the Orcs. They didn't waltz into Horde towns, loot and pillage them for the hell of it, then kill anyone whom resisted. The Alliance doesn't trust the Horde. They've got countless reasons to not trust them, the main one being every time they do, they've been blindsided by them. And they've yet to return the favour. Closing trade in retaliation, for yet another betrayal, and resisting invasion is a far cry from pushing any one around.

Know the Orcs in Warsong?

Meet the Humans in Northwatch. Or the Dwarves digging up Tauren stuff.

These things should have been sorted by a Warchief, not left to sort themselves.

Very true. Thrall didn't stop people from killing the leftovers of Daelin Proudmoore's men in Durotar. Didn't stop the warsong clan in Ashenvale. He refused to hand over horde criminals to Varian in The Shattering, all he's done is try to avoid open war, he never let the Alliance just walk over the Horde. Some just tend to interpret 'not letting you run wild' as 'bow down to the mighty alliance.'

Just a nitpick, he refused to hand over 'supposed' war criminals (that turned out to not exist; it was the Twilight's Hammer flying Horde colors to stir up trouble between the Alliance and Horde and in the Horde proper).

But otherwise, Thrall also had a lot of trouble keeping the Warsong in check in Northrend and leading up to the Shattering of the World, in part because of Garrosh's successes and popularity among the rank and file orcish troops--and the reason he refused to turn the war criminals (if he turned up any) was because his reign was no longer as secure as it once had been and doing so would have been used against him by his political opponents as kowtowing to the Alliance.

For the same reasons the Night Elves killed Orcs in Ashenvale. Drekthar wasn't going to suffer a defilement of land his people took guardianship of, even if it was recently. The Frostwolves were in the right to keep the Dwarves from strip mining the place.

Because WoW did a shit job of storytelling from classic until wrath of the lich king, when we actually began to see sparks of war.

You also forget Warcraft III... it's not like Thrall changed any time between then and WoW.

Thrall was alot more willing to take action before World of Warcraft, perhaps it was Vanilla's storytelling that made it alot more narrow, but Wrath of the Lich King didn't Address these things either, as they still happen in Cataclysm.

Hell, only Garrosh is the one who handled Northwatch, even if it was a stupid and wrong action.

Meet the Humans in Northwatch. Or the Dwarves digging up Tauren stuff.

These things should have been sorted by a Warchief, not left to sort themselves.

Tell me then, why isn't Garrosh in Southern Barrens personally taking care of the Alliance incursion? Lore characters can't be everywhere at once, and Thrall's seeming passivity wasn't a Thrall specific thing, it was a flaw in Blizzard's overall storytelling in vanilla/bc. Faction leaders did NEXT TO NOTHING not just Thrall.

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

For the same reasons the Night Elves killed Orcs in Ashenvale. Drekthar wasn't going to suffer a defilement of land his people took guardianship of, even if it was recently. The Frostwolves were in the right to keep the Dwarves from strip mining the place.

However, if you knew. The Frostwolves DID try diplomacy first, telling them to leave, the Dwarves just said "Fuck you" and started mining anyway.

While I have no doubt the Warsong were stupid meatheads, an Envoy to Thrall telling him to back the fuck off would have worked just as well as Squatting around the Warsong camp in stealth and then melting their lumber.