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Originally posted by hMJem

Originally posted by Telondariel

Originally posted by Celcius

I like how people claim they are missing a "large chunk" of people who play MMOs without raiding. This is simply not true at all. A ton of people who play MMOs don't even hit max level, let alone raid. Raiding has been the least popular part of every MMO since it's inception. Most people don't have the kind of time required for it.

GW2 has over 3 million people playing it who knew there would not be raids available. This is based on US/EU alone so consider that GW2's population is probably as much as/ more then WoW's NA population and WoW has probably the highest percentage of raiders of any MMO. I would say that is a pretty good indication that people generally don't play MMOS for raids.

Pretty much this. People that raid will go to a game that caters to that aspect of gaming.

Raiding has never interested me, so I'm not phased at all by its exclusion in TESO. There are other draws to the game for me, and I'm sure I will be quite content playing it when it launches.

So why does WoW have 9+ active million subscribers, if 90% of people dont raid?

Most people stay subscribed to WoW because they feel they can upgrade their character. Feeling like you can get better gear is why MMOs became successful the last decade.

You obviously never saw Blizzard do a breakdown of their player base at a Blizzcon. Each time they've done it, they show that less than 20% of the player base participates in raiding content. Just like PvP garners less than 25% of the player base. All of those casuals, like me, took forever to level and or re-rolled a new toon rather than play content we can't stand. As it was, it lasted me 2.5 years before I got tired of the game altogether.

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Originally posted by Vorthanion

You obviously never saw Blizzard do a breakdown of their player base at a Blizzcon. Each time they've done it, they show that less than 20% of the player base participates in raiding content. Just like PvP garners less than 25% of the player base. All of those casuals, like me, took forever to level and or re-rolled a new toon rather than play content we can't stand. As it was, it lasted me 2.5 years before I got tired of the game altogether.

And by players you mean characters. Blizzard has never released how it breaks down by accounts.

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So can you live with a MMO that has no raids? Or will that make ESO a pit stop for you before you run off to a new MMO that you and your guildies can really enjoy?

Info comes fromHERE!!!! : There are no raids, after all – "That's not Elder Scrolls," says Game Director Matt Firor – but there are four-man dungeons and three-faction open PvP with sieges in the beleaguered province of Cyrodiil.

Raids is for a game that has nowhere else to go... no more creative processes is left(or its tapped out) in the dev's, so they sit down and think up a way to keep those players playing with as LITTLE effort as possible on thier part, end result, a 'epic' 'quest' that is basicly 1 dungeon which they can repeat on a timer for a small(Ish) chance for a paticular rare, or a number of 'collectables' they have to amass a specific amount to get anything...

No raids means the dev's want to keep putting that creative genius to work on things that matter: The game!

The irony? even if you take out raid in wow. Wow still beat out in content compare to pretty much all other standard themepark.

What's the problem with raid? nothing? if you dont' like to raid you don't "have to". But problem is raider usually get heavily rewarded compare to "the other people". THat's the problem.

I mean. Should I just not play TESO "if I don't like Alliance vs Alliance"? There is nothing wrong with a mmorpg which have "everything". The players can pick out what they enjoy doing and do it.

It's about different styles of content being treated equally. It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1. they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2. knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

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Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

You obviously never saw Blizzard do a breakdown of their player base at a Blizzcon. Each time they've done it, they show that less than 20% of the player base participates in raiding content. Just like PvP garners less than 25% of the player base. All of those casuals, like me, took forever to level and or re-rolled a new toon rather than play content we can't stand. As it was, it lasted me 2.5 years before I got tired of the game altogether.

And by players you mean characters. Blizzard has never released how it breaks down by accounts.

The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud. This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

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Originally posted by Vorthanion

It's about different styles of content being treated equally. It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1. they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2. knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

So in other words they would not feel so bad about topping out in their respective playstyle if others did not get shinies. I guess you feel just as pissy about that guy working over time getting paid more than you do too huh?

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The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud. This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

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Originally posted by Celcius

Originally posted by danbosk0

Originally posted by Celcius

I like how people claim they are missing a "large chunk" of people who play MMOs without raiding. This is simply not true at all. A ton of people who play MMOs don't even hit max level, let alone raid. Raiding has been the least popular part of every MMO since it's inception. Most people don't have the kind of time required for it.

GW2 has over 3 million people playing it who knew there would not be raids available. This is based on US/EU alone so consider that GW2's population is probably as much as/ more then WoW's NA population and WoW has probably the highest percentage of raiders of any MMO. I would say that is a pretty good indication that people generally don't play MMOS for raids.

This whole post is wrong. Don't say "ton" and "least" and "most" when you're only using yourself and your 3 friends as a sample group. And 3 million people may have bought GW2, but that doesn't mean that mean even half that many people sitll log on.

Ironic how you counter me making numbers up based on information I have seen on this site, mmo-champion,massively,ect by doing the same thing. No one knows how many people are playing. All I know, along with people who actually play the game, is that the servers are active as they ever have been. I see just as many people in zones now as I did at launch. Hell, some zones I see MORE people. The fact is that those 3 million don't need to be playing. Just look at NC Soft reports, GW2 is making them more money then anything else atm. Considering how big of a publisher NC Soft is, and how important it is for them to keep investors, I would say they have to be doing pretty well based on these reports. I would take something said in an investor meeting with far more weight then something some guy on an MMO site with notoriously jaded MMO has beens has to say.

Did I mention that there is a gw2 patch today with a good amount of content? They keep up this monthly trend very well for a dying game. I would like to thank all the "raiders" in this thread who contributed towards buying GW2 to support my content! Keep buying into games that you think are going to be something they are not and you will surely find yourself one you like some day! You vote with your wallets children.

Are you sure that you ahve logged in recently? That isn't what I am finding nor most of the other people posting here and on Massively talking about dead servers. The population isn't even close to what it was at launch. They might have sold 3 million copies, but there isn't anywhere near that playing the game anymore. Even the numbers on XFire and Raptr have bottomed out recently. The game isn't bad, but it definitely doesn't have the longevity for a lot of people that you make it out to have. WoW actually had more people playing this far into its lifecycle and continued to grow. GW2 is like the rest of the post WoW MMOs. It just didn't have the staying power or catch to keep a lot of people playing.

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Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

It's about different styles of content being treated equally. It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1. they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2. knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

So in other words they would not feel so bad about topping out in their respective playstyle if others did not get shinies. I guess you feel just as pissy about that guy working over time getting paid more than you do too huh?

Your comparison is off as a PVPer could be putting just as much time and effort in.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

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Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

It's about different styles of content being treated equally. It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1. they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2. knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

So in other words they would not feel so bad about topping out in their respective playstyle if others did not get shinies. I guess you feel just as pissy about that guy working over time getting paid more than you do too huh?

Your comparison is off as a PVPer could be putting just as much time and effort in.

How is it wrong? I have no issue with pvpers being rewarded aslong as its based on skill and not time served. High end arena, those guys totally deserve their gear, arguably so do rbgs. But crafters or solo players, not so much. Its far too easy and tends to unbalance skill based gameplay. The smaller the group, the easier the content is. Less teamwork, and less strategy are required by defualt.

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Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

It's about different styles of content being treated equally. It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1. they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2. knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

So in other words they would not feel so bad about topping out in their respective playstyle if others did not get shinies. I guess you feel just as pissy about that guy working over time getting paid more than you do too huh?

Your comparison is off as a PVPer could be putting just as much time and effort in.

How is it wrong? I have no issue with pvpers being rewarded aslong as its based on skill and not time served. High end arena, those guys totally deserve their gear, arguably so do rbgs. But crafters or solo players, not so much. Its far too easy and tends to unbalance skill based gameplay. The smaller the group, the easier the content is. Less teamwork, and less strategy are required by defualt.

Firstly even a crafter can put just as much time and effort into a game, especially considering the system ZEN has been talking up. The game also has a lot of focus on PVP at end-game. These two playstyles could be putting in a lot of "overtime" to help support the systems within the game.

Common quester's as it was put earlier, really don't stand out as a unique playstyle, as just about everyone does quests in these games, that's the main leveling/progression route, so i'll ignore them.

However for the other two you painted as doing less while bitching for more, it's simply not a fair comparison, their paths should be just as rewarding to take.

As a side note. His point wasn't about taking things away from raiders, it was that raiders shouldn't get exclusive access to more than everyone else, there should be a balance, otherwise other playstyles are diminished by design.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

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Originally posted by Distopia

Firstly even a crafter can put just as much time and effort into a game, especially considering the system ZEN has been talking up. The game also has a lot of focus on PVP at end-game. These two playstyles could be putting in a lot of "overtime" to help support the systems within the game.

No. Crafters may put in the same amount of time, but the actual effort is nowhere near the same. Running around grabbing stuff off the ground and clicking combine is nowhere near as much effort required as even a couple of people having to work together as a team. Neither is zerging. This is the issue.

Common quester's as it was put earlier, really don't stand out as a unique playstyle, as just about everyone does quests in these games, that's the main leveling/progression route, so i'll ignore them.

Thats not really accurate either though. Its all about the path of least resistance. If questing is the best xp, then what is what will be done. On the flip side, if just grinding mobs gives you a significant amount more, that is what the majority will do, especially after the numbers get published and it dissiminates through the ranks.

However for the other two you painted as doing less while bitching for more, it's simply not a fair comparison, their paths should be just as rewarding to take.

As a side note. His point wasn't about taking things away from raiders, it was that raiders shouldn't get exclusive access to more than everyone else, there should be a balance, otherwise other playstyles are diminished by design.

Again, I disagree. Skill should be rewarded > time spent. Afking for gear in Cyrodil is not my idea of a good time. Which is exactly the problem. If you make everything "equal" then I will just craft my set of +5 plate of awesomeness, and then end up facerolling whatever "challenging" content they decide to put out. And yes, it will be facerolled cause if they require that level of gear to begin with you hit 2 major issues. The "casuals" will throw a temper tantrum because OMG ITS GATED!! The other part Conan said best, "Crush your enemies (the competition of defeating the challenge), See them driven before you (the recognition of being the best), and hearing the lamentations of their women (taking what they hold dearest and making it yours)". Pvpers are getting that last bit with the buff they receive when they get crowned emporer. Pver's need something similar. Whether they want to handle it through loot itself as has been traditionally done, or through another means, we need effective compensation for being awesome.

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Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

It's about different styles of content being treated equally. It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1. they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2. knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

So in other words they would not feel so bad about topping out in their respective playstyle if others did not get shinies. I guess you feel just as pissy about that guy working over time getting paid more than you do too huh?

You're being intentionally obtuse. You know darn well all other play styles top out long before raiders do.

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The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud. This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content? Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

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The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud. This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content? Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

Why don't you ask them? Most developers are stupid in the first place. Case in point to all the WoW clones that fail to capture what made WoW a success and continue to put out utter crap year after year.

And to throw your tactic right back at you. Why do developers continue to make raiding a big deal and continue to spend so much time and effort into designing new and more raids if only such a small portion of their players ever experience it? Obviously because a hell of a lot more than 25% people experience the raids.

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Im personally good with no raid content, as I dont like wating for random people to use the can, or go get food, or go smoke( the worst thing to wait for) while you just want to get the crapass raid over with. waiting on a bunch of people just plain sucks. and even worse is when you are in a highend raiding guild and you have to log on at a certain time to get your spot in a raid. I personally dont want to have a scedule for my fun. I want to log on, have a good time, and when my good time is done. not stay online beating my head against some stupid scripted boss fight waiting for the slow people to figgure out not to stand in the bright red circle.

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Originally posted by triphexIm personally good with no raid content, as I dont like wating for random people to use the can, or go get food, or go smoke( the worst thing to wait for) while you just want to get the crapass raid over with. waiting on a bunch of people just plain sucks. and even worse is when you are in a highend raiding guild and you have to log on at a certain time to get your spot in a raid. I personally dont want to have a scedule for my fun. I want to log on, have a good time, and og when my good time is done. not stay online beating my head against some stupid scripted boss fight waiting for the slow people to figgure out not to stand in the bright red circle.

you say you don't want to have to wait on random people for stupid reasons and just get the raid done, and at the same time don't want to make the minor sacrifice of logging in at a set time so people know to be ready by x-time so they WONT be going afk for stupid reasons so you can get the raid done.

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All I need is public events, PvP, Multiple Quest Line, Side Quests, and other worldly objectives and i'm good. Faction objectives and such will keep me busy having much more fun than wasting a weekend for a "maybe" piece of gear.

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You're being intentionally obtuse. You know darn well all other play styles top out long before raiders do.

You mean like rp? ROFL.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content? Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

The only studio that I am aware of that actually releases those sorts of metrics is EVE, and that is mostly due to Icelandic law. Many studio's will not release "total" numbers because of the effects and conclusions that can be drawn that leads to stock dips etc. Its why Blizzard always releases its numbers in "total" instead of releasing East+West. I mean even that artical linked earlier (I have used it too) about 30% of toons not making it past level 10 is horribly flawed. It does not take into account farmer toons that were being used for advertising. Do you not remember the 20 toon trains that would port to major cities and die in the pattern spelling out the web address? That alone is 10k toons per week that never got past level 5!

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Originally posted by SupportPlayerMMAll I need is public events, PvP, Multiple Quest Line, Side Quests, and other worldly objectives and i'm good. Faction objectives and such will keep me busy having much more fun than wasting a weekend for a "maybe" piece of gear.

See, this is the problem. The point of the raid is not the gear. Gear is part of it (everyone wants to get paid) but the point is the camraderie. Its about the team spirit. PUGS are what has killed raiding.

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Originally posted by Vembumees

I am really hyped about this game, but if it will indeed include no endgame raid content then I won't ever touch it and neither will nobody I know, because I won't be telling them about the game. And I am one such person out of probably a hundred thousand. Why? Because I am a hardcore gamer and I will be max level in probably less than a week and if it really has no endgame raiding then really I probably will be playing something else a month later and without any new content coming up, will never touch the game again.

Ugh, good riddance to content locusts imo. I've seen pve raiders ruin two of my favorite mmorpgs and I really hope ESO sticks to their guns on this one. These so called "hardcore" bingers will NEVER be happy unless they have a feeding tube of big monsters to sit around and dodge aoes with and often to the detriment of every other aspect of the game.

No, no, and no. Get out. There are plenty of games that already cater to your glued to the seat for five hours straight, scheduled whining on TS gaming lifestyle.

Edit: Putting in the admission that I do not mind if raids and group based pve content is put in the game from the get-go. My problem is with the attitude and self-entitlement of some of these hardcore raiders who whine and stomp their feet endlessly about the lack of endgame content that they have sat on their rears steamrolling through in short order- they don't care if the main focus of the game was pvp/sandbox oriented in the first place, they want more bosses, more progression, more loot, and they want them NOW!