NCFIC: A Vision Forum Retread

October 29, 2014 — Jen

Andrew McDonald has been reading and commenting here for the last year, and partially because of his involvement here, he has encountered his own story of church discipline which he would like to share with us here. While there have been many, many people and families who have been hurt in various ways through the years by Doug Phillips, Vision Forum, Scott Brown, NCFIC, and others associated with these men and their ministries, most have chosen the easy road of just keeping quiet. It takes real courage to speak out publicly about what is happening, to warn friends and family that their house is on fire! Patriarchy, and the abuses within its walls, is still alive and well. To those who are still in the patriarchy movement, and/or the NCFIC movement: Your house is on fire! The time to act is now!

Here is Andrew’s story, in his own words:

Some of you know my concerns as I have written on Jen’s Gems a bit. People are still suffering from Doug Phillips’ abuse and speaking out is part of the process of healing. I began thinking about those like him: Men desiring control. I’ve posted about that and gave details of the past and present situations in my own life and church. Some details were specifically about Scott Brown and as a result someone alerted the leader of my church and I was eventually called into a private meeting and confronted. I do not deny that some good has come alongside the wrong teachings, there has been much good done, but the wrong teachings are never justified by adjacent successes. Successes are really God’s department and to His credit not ours. He gets the glory. Justifying the error by mention of the benefit only makes the situation more tragic, it does not validate the error. Since the leader knows I post here I’ve decided to respond here. You may well ask what is my background and how dare I say these things? Glad you asked! I am a great sinner who has a greater Savior, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and trying to follow after the Great Shepherd who invites us all to follow Him. I say these things not because I am worthy; I say them because the TRUTH is worthy and, lastly, because folks need to be warned.

An Open Letter to my former leader:

When you confronted me about posting on this blog, you showed up with a stack of paper and mentioned over 100 pages written. I thought that seemed like a lot. In order to get an accurate idea of what I said in the posts and the volume of the entries, I went through the site and copied them all. I posted 66 messages, printable in less than 23 pages, not even close to the ‘over 100 pages’ mentioned. Most posts were short and, contrary to your ‘concern’, took little time away from my family. Some were late at night as the matter was heavy on my heart.

No posts were purposefully inflammatory; they were my experiences or opinions tempered with prayer and investigation. That the posts were truthful is bolstered by the fact that they eventually identified me. Most were inquiries about Doug Phillips’ close associate, Scott Brown. Scott Brown was initially my concern. Some posts were sincere inquiry seeking counsel.

I contacted people who knew Scott Brown to confirm that he had problems; the events were confirmed by personal testimony and church records. These events were never cleared up.

As it turns out, your belief that Scott Brown is ‘one of the godliest men’ you know is based solely on your experience with him. I continued to research and began to post in December of 2013. NONE of the posts were made until after I’d spoken with you. My concerns were effectively dismissed. After I told you that the posts were mine, you moved to the old standby tactic of all authoritarian leaders: accuse and intimidate. You accused me of being a gossip and a busy body even though you knew that I came to you with each concern and you also knew I had not broadcast it about the church. Am I a gossip? Like Doug Phillips has said, ‘He who defines the terms wins.’ But my intent was not to get the ‘juicy stuff’ as you said; it was only to get at the truth, to protect against wrong teachings and to warn you.

I am sure that I am not the only one with concerns over these matters. Yet many will say nothing as they understand the reception and repercussions of doing so. This lack of freedom to speak is not surprising to anyone on this blog. It thrives in all cultish environs where perfunctory dismissal of differing opinions seems to be the order of the day. I am not sure who told you about this blog, but it really matters little to me. I imagine it is another concerned person in the church and I am glad they are concerned. I hope they continue to dig into the details. If they do they will discover the truth. I do not regret warning others or checking into folks presented as ‘teachers’ or ‘authorities’; it is the obligation of any follower of Christ and especially one who leads in any capacity to ‘know the well from which they drink.’ We are charged to be Bereans, to see ‘if these things be so.’

I went through the NCFIC site to see just how deeply entrenched you were. It was a task to be sure. I found your presence pervasive and realized your course had been set firmly. I discovered that the beliefs along these lines were nothing new, they began even before you came here. You testified to that in your phone interview on the NCFIC blog. The beliefs were fostered, in part, by and through Doug Wilson and his disciples.

At your first church experience you expressed frustration at trying to ‘replicate the ministries’ of your sending church. You say it caused burn out and ended with the eventual abandonment of Junior Church. In the phone interview with Scott Brown, you said a youth pastor gave you a booklet by Christopher Schlect. The pamphlet explained why people should remove their children from Sunday School and youth ministries and how such activities are anti-Biblical.

When I researched Schlect, I found he was a member of the Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Christians. (CREC is a denomination/sect started by Doug Wilson in 1998 surrounded by dubious activities and shenanigans.) I saw that he was a teacher at New Saint Andrews College (Doug Wilson’s college). His pamphlet was published by Canon Press (Doug Wilson’s company). Then I recalled your response when I tried to caution you about Doug Wilson, after you gave out one of his books at a men’s retreat. I researched Doug Wilson, and then came to you. I warned you and you said he was a friend. I thought you were just trying to get a book published. Now it makes sense, you were already a follower. My warning was years too late.

After your church plant, you found an established church to implement your newly adopted ideas. In the interview you declare that you came to the church and began your ‘5 year deprogramming’ plan. You followed exactly Paul Washer’s counsel on his You Tube video for ‘Reforming a Church’. Gaining their confidence, by teaching on relevant issues like the family, you moved right along ‘letting some ministries die gracefully’ rather than axing them. Although I’m not sure how any ministry dies gracefully, that is what you said in the interview.

You have also followed the example of Scott Brown. When he got in a tight spot, he called for a ‘vote of confidence’ . I recalled the same ploy used at church when people voiced concern at a congregational meeting just after Scott Brown had been there. You called for a vote of confidence and it worked. In retrospect, that was a sad, sad day. If the vote had been the other way, the church would have been saved from much trouble. The whole event seemed out of place, the timing of the ploy may have been a tad off, perhaps a bit overplayed, but hey, it worked. It was a watershed moment.

Those who knew something was wrong likely knew they’d just lost their church. Trouble was that they lacked the expertise of the better communicator. Mark this, they did not lose because they were wrong, they lost because they were not as articulate, as organized, as winsome and because they got too emotional over the issue. They had the disadvantage because they did not really know what was being played at. Few did. They were colorfully painted as aggressive, arrogant, close minded, slightly ignorant and off base. Some colors were slightly true and that lent credence to the accusations; yet who is perfect, don’t we all have some of these traits? The flesh is hard to capture and, as Christians, we are all in the process.

After this event you, more firmly, established your authority; after all the church is a ‘pastor rule’ church and it was your prerogative. When this all started I wonder if the congregation saw the big picture. I wonder if they knew about the ‘5 year plan’ or about ‘letting ministries die gracefully.’ I am sure the idea of changes for the ‘good’ of the congregation seemed good. Some, in fact, were good; that they were based on an unbiblical foundation was far from their minds. Did they know they were involved in ‘worldly practices’? I doubt it. Scott Brown was the first real clue but it was already too late, the wheels had been set in motion. I have to respect what you’ve accomplished even though the church had to split to get there. I have learned from this: I will NEVER attend a ‘pastor rule’ church again; sadly human nature is just too corrupt for such a rule.

I did consider revealing myself on the blog. I thought it was perhaps even courageous since you implied that to be posting on the blog under a pseudonym was cowardly and sinful. Blasphemous, you said about the site, although I still cannot see that one; I see no contempt or lack of reverence for God on the site. Yet I’ve decided not to reveal myself as it would reduce this to a personality contest. The contest should be the truth against falsehood. It may take awhile but the truth will always win. Some do not think too deeply about much and it is not their fault. If it wasn’t for Scott Brown, I would not have thought more. Not knowing was far more comfortable.

When I first began all this, I did it because I thought you were being charmed or won over by these people. I wanted to warn you. I was wrong. I was quizzical at the reception of the information I had retrieved, for two reasons: first, it is very, very likely true; and second, I thought you’d appreciate the time and effort involved in an effort to warn you. Instead, you told me I should be a ‘spy or a detective’, that I should stay off the internet.

Your accusation of my demeaning you (by mentioning that you were young) is not fair, as if I am against you personally. I am not. The fact is, you are young, you are just as susceptible to spiritual deception as anyone else, and as a leader you’re even more likely to be targeted than others for deception. On this site, I said you were young and asked people to pray. As I told you, this was not meant as a slam. I still ask that, now even more fervently.

In researching this situation, I can’t tell you how many people sounded like Sgt. Shultz from the old Hogan’s Heroes show, ‘I know nothing!’ or the TV evangelist’s ‘Don’t touch God’s anointed.’ If I did not know the people involved, I might ask, ‘Who has bewitched you?’ Except I know who bewitched you for I was bewitched by the same crowd.

In 2006 the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International said Family Integrated Church practices were ‘errant and schismatic.’ They pretty much sum it up:

• It encourages schism in the local church bodies by encouraging its adherents to change the theology and philosophy of the churches of which they are members.

• It does violence to local church authority, calling on local church members to leave their churches when the church does not bow to the philosophical demands of the movement.

• It espouses an ecclesiology based upon the family that is not based upon the New Testament but rather is an adaptation of Old Testament patriarchy.

• It falsely lays the claim that the destruction of the family in the U.S. is solely the fault of age-graded ministries in local churches. We contend that this is a simplistic and therefore false accusation.

• It espouses a postmillennial theology that is contradictory to a dispensational understanding of Scripture.

• It is oddly inclusive, basing fellowship on a particular philosophy of ministry rather than on the great fundamentals of the faith.

I do not say that anyone involved in the NCFIC is lacking salvation. Salvation does not hinge on these things singularly but the efficacy of the salvation message can be clouded by them, the Christian walk can be hindered by them and unity will certainly suffer from them. I urge you to step down from involvement with these people, as Kevin Swanson has done, and just pastor your church; the people love you, they do not need someone in ‘substantial’ agreement with NCFIC. (Gotta love those nebulous words; they always provide a convenient back door if things get hot!) The people need you to stand for God, for His Word and lead. And be honest with them, if they want to go the direction you intend then great but give them a voice in the matter.

UPDATE: This letter will certainly identify me as I put it into the hands of church leadership before I decided to post it and parts of it (like the statement from the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International) were given to alert leadership to the hazards of the NCFIC. Already my family has been turned away from by some folks who will no longer come to our home because of, as one dear saint said, some ‘offense.’ Naturally unexplained. Another hung up their phone when we called. We are funny and predictable creatures upon which God has lavished his love. We should do likewise even in the face of shunning. In the end, God will prevail and we will understand, one day, just why we did the things we did and how it was right or wrong; for God’s glory or our own. In the meantime we must continue to look to Jesus.

I was told yesterday that the pastor called a congregational meeting where they were told that I’d posted ‘lies’ on the web about him and the church. That explains the responses we’re getting. Oh well. Funny thing is just before I got the phone call about the meeting I’d told my wife we were probably excommunicated in abstentia; not too far from wrong on that one! Explains the cold shoulders we’re getting. I wonder why no one is thinking about how so many folks who’ve left could all have been wrong?

35 Responses to “NCFIC: A Vision Forum Retread”

I just quit a well paying job because it had all the red flags of being an unhealthy environment exactly like Doug’s church and funny situations were happening … Like me being called a disruptive gossip after going to my (female) boss with concerns about the abusive work environment.

It’s not church but it might as well be the way the employees put the leaders on pedestals and so on. It reminded me so much of being at Boerne Xtian Assembly … Triggered too much stress … So instead of being fired I just quit. (that’s where it was headed.)

Anyway I ramble on to really say thanks for posting this! I wasn’t crazy when I left BCA bc of how unhealthy it had become and your stories are so parallel to the job I just left that it’s oddly refreshing to read.

Sorry you’re going through all this but glad you’re speaking out! It’s better to be free. However it is you choose to go about it!

Sarah, yes this type of thing can happen anywhere that people are in relationships, especially where there is an order established to accomplish a goal, the fact that mean spiritedness exists in a secular work place is no surprise. That it happens in a place where the name of Jesus is lifted is very disheartening. Best wishes as you work things out. Andrew

Reblogged this on Sarah Pressler and commented:
So many people come to my blog looking for info on Doug Phillips. You can keep up with all that ex-church drama over on Jen’s Gems!

Oddly enough this post reminds me of so many red flags / experiences at a previous employer. There were a lot of parallels. As I told the guest author here: it’s better to be free of that environment however one has to go about extricating themselves.

Anyway – a good read for the day to keep up with the ongoings in the Family-Integrated (Patriarchal) Church Movement.

My husband was a pastor of an FIC Reformed Baptist church for 7 years. When DP fell he asked to remove his teaching from the library. The other elders (one considered himself a personal friend of DP and Botkin) said – “Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water….Everything he said was biblical.” The elders were preaching through the ten commandments at the time. My husband used the DP situation and David and Bathsheba as illustrations during the 7th Commandment sermon on adultery. He was accused of gossiping…slandering….judging a fallen brother etc. When he came to the conclusion that DP was a false teacher and started actually studying his teaching(trying to determine if it was in fact biblical) he was told to stop researching….that he didn’t have enough time for sermon prep as it was (he is bi-vocational)…that he was reading “gossip” websites by bitter people….that he should be ashamed to read the Torres lawsuit….why as a man would he even want to read that?! He then mentioned DP in the lying sermon as well. He was accused of being “self-willed.” After much prayer and study he would not admit to being self-willed. He was being a good shepherd and warning about the wolf….refuting those who did not hold to sound doctrine. He was told that because he would not admit to self-will it proved he was self-willed. One elder even told him “I know you’re not self-willed but just admit to it anyway.” Because he mentioned DP in two sermons he was accused of being obsessed with DP and making an idol out of him. The wife of the elder who was DP personal friend sent an email to the other 3 elders telling them to take swift action against my husband. He was eventually publicly rebuked on a Friday night and removed from membership. If I had not lived it I wouldn’t have believed it. I am still in shock. In an FIC church where women are not allowed to vote….an elder’s wife calls for swift action against the Lead elder and they obey. But they get fighting mad if you tell them they are being led by women…..

Unfortunately, many pastors are hoodwinked by this movement because they do little research into the issues. The movement is superficial in it rationales (yelling “Bible alone!” is not an argument) and attracts too many zealous and uncritical pastors. Other pastors simply want to ride the bandwagon and find more people to fill their pews. Sad.

Thank you for the link. I spoke of a specific church body but the signs of trouble are across the board. I would say that anyone who is in a church where the leadership is lifted up to just be aware that only one person is to be lifted up and that is Jesus our Messiah… not a pastor. Best regards, Andrew

It takes courage for one to expose this type of abuse; Christians are a trusting people and this often makes us vulnerable to manipulation. I’m glad you spoke out and I’m certain others will be blessed by your actions in this matter. May the good Lord bless you.

Yesterday I got an email from someone who spoke up and went through the mill. I take the liberty to quote it here, ‘There was not only no place for me and my family but there were outright lies spoken against us … These pastor rule churches are so dangerous. Even if they start out with a humble man the church soon corrupts him by constantly reminding him of his final authority which just fattens his head. Then when he needs some genuine help with correction, when its still fixable, the deacons are deceived into believing they can’t touch the man of God…’ I watched this happen and I watched as pastors and people left and still I did not investigate. I stood with the leadership in spite of these red flags. I was wrong.
It takes courage to investigate, to take a stand. You will often stand alone just like all those who left before you. Trust this: that they probably tried to talk with the leader before they left. I can testify, that in my case, the pastor was warned of the error into which he had fallen yet there was no room for correction. The NCFIC is dangerous, they take scriptures out of context and make traditions of men into ‘laws’. Take a stand, speak out! You may not be well received and likely you will be called names and, like my friend, falsely accused but you must do what is right. As Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil”

This is by Shawn Mathis. Be cautious about what the followers, speakers and advocates of the NCFIC say and do. Ken Swanson was to have stepped aside from the NCFIC but he is still speaking at their conferences. So, while his denomination has told him that they disapprove, he is still there though he appears to have removed references to the NCFIC in connection with his home church. In other words he is following the letter and not the spirit of the law. I know a pastor who came to a church with plans to ‘convert’ it; no one knew his agenda and now it’s almost a done deal as families have come from failed FIC churches to bolster the membership. Like other cults the NCFIC does not make converts they make proselytes claiming to have a ‘better way’. They preach the Bible and grace but they practice true sanctification by the law.

I’m dismayed at who is listed as speakers at their last indoctrination conference, including Joel Beeke! https://ncfic.org/ – Also, regarding Pastor Swanson, he’s featured on the NCFIC blog: https://ncfic.org/blog/posts/kevin_swanson_my_goal_for_you_hate_sin
Have these men no shame? Why do they associate with those who abuse the sheep and disgrace the Gospel? IMO, the Reformed Church needs to clean up their act and stop enabling the wolves. At this point, I’m not too happy to be part of the “Reformed” crowd. May the good Lord give those leaders a sense of shame. In Lord Jesus Name, I pray, amen.

I read your article earlier today and here are my thoughts: Doug Phillips was promoting a romanticized view of Colonial America, much as some promote the Victorian Age. They neglect to tell the whole story of those who were discriminated against, persecuted or left miserably in poverty and illiteracy while the privileged elite lived easy lives. Folks were buying into a fairy tale at VF. And this is my observation – there were few minorities involved in this make believe world.

Just for everyone’s information, the NCFIC is certainly not the only type of church where this sort of thing happens. Independant, Fundamental Baptist Churches, though most certainly not steeped in the FIC dogma, are swamped in this sort of pastor ruled nonsense. And just as in the NCFIC movement, if you speak out against something the pastor has declared you become equivalent to a cancer in the church and you will be ostracized. Each one is a little different, and they switch up pastors on a regular basis (or, something happens which causes a church split, ending up with an entirely new set of people every so often), each leader moving in and implementing his own system which (some) people will gradually wise up to, but once you do it’s all downhill. Speaking with the pastor, or other leaders, never helps and when you ultimately leave you will be branded a heretic and the remaining church members will be strongly encouraged to shun you. When will we learn that this does tremendous damage to the (corporate) church’s testimony?
I don’t think this can ever be resolved in these type of churches because the people are never genuinely taught to think as the Bereans. To do so would invite people to question the authority of the leader, to make them accountable for their thoughts, actions, and policies. Plus, it requires people who are devoted to understanding God’s word on their own, as opposed to being spoon-fed the bible. Don’t get me wrong, there are lots of wonderful people in these churches, and many of them are saved, but it’s much easier to accept what’s being thrown at you than to hunt down what you need.
BTW – I am by no means perfect, and have been guilty of accepting what’s been thrown more often than I’d care to admit. I just hope I can remember all this for myself in the future. It sure is easy to stop and catch from time to time.

Rebecca, It is just this sort of climate that is a greenhouse for aberrant teachings like the NCFIC. As I said before I will not ever join a pastor rule church again. The last one was enough! They are also big on the ‘no gossip rule’ so that hamstrings any viable information exchange. Glad you escaped. We need to keep praying for those left behind. A friend calls the patriarchal/FIC movement the Christian Moslem movement; men reign and women are the subjects.

This week the Lord has taught me good things from 1 Corinthians 3 about equality and hierarchy.

Paul teaches the equality of believers in 1 Corinthians 3. First, in verse 1, he addresses the saints as “brothers and sisters”. No saint holds a higher place in God’s family than another saint, we are all of the same “generation”, under the loving rule our Father and our Savior and the Spirit. “Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ.”

In verse 5, he affirms that even an apostle and a Bible teacher are “only servants”. “What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.”

And in verse 7, only God is in charge. “So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. Finally in verse 9, Paul and Apollos are equal, even an apostle has no superior rank. “we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.”

Also in 1 Cor 3, Paul assesses those who do not embrace equality but who support hierarchy. Here are some of his descriptors: “who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ”; and “For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?”

And later in this chapter, Paul concludes: “19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness” ; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours,”

Rebecca you are so right. We left an NCFIC group after repeated warnings to the leadership about Scott Brown, Doug Wilson and others of their ilk. Some friends, who’d eaten dinner with us for over two years at least once a week and even vacationed with us, dropped us like a hot potato. They are still enchanted by the leader.
After the Dugger scandal, preceded by the Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard debacles and recent articles about R.C. Sproul Jr. (a NCFIC speaker) and Doug Wilson’s churches, where sexual predators are reportedly harbored and aided, it brought to mind again the idea that keeps coming back: the patriarchal/quiverfull movement is a hot bed (no pun intended) for the abuse of women. [new article on Doug Wilson’s newest scandal here: http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/09/08/pastor-doug-wilson-has-been-involved-in-another-disturbing-pedophile-case-jamin-wight/
Just days ago I got a message from a pastor who wrote about a leader who left the area over a speck of trouble he got in. A moral issue. The pastor wrote, ‘It’s my understanding the moral issue was a minor and the dad confronted him and he left within days.’ Naturally the church plant died. While the specifics may or may not be true the church did indeed shut down. It certainly fits the pattern. Not surprisingly the treasurer of the church relocated to New York and other members struggled. One was recently the victim of murder. Hardly a success story. Unfortunately that leader came up here, took over a church and eventually split it.
The charismatic and persuasive man has filled his church with ‘like minded’ thinkers, proselytes, and other sheeple. A big boost came when the members of another NCIFC group that died joined his group. What happened there? You guessed it: Sexual Abuse. As Gomer Plye would say, “surprise, Surprise, SURPRISE!!” The spirit of Hophni and Phinehas is alive & well in these ‘islamic christian’ churches where women are second class citizens. All this is done under the guise of ‘holiness’, ‘returning to the old ways’, and other fractured scriptures propped up with erroneous Biblical interpretations by the sanctimonious and passionate NCFIC crowd.
He has combined these teachings with titillating teachings and sexual advice from the Song of Solomon given out at marriage, men’s retreats and counseling sessions. No real surprise there. Just like his good friend Doug Wilson’s prurient interests who wrote, “Men dream of being rapists, and women find themselves wistfully reading novels in which someone ravishes the “soon to be made willing heroine.” and “Man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.” While there may be some truth to these things they are most certainly thoughts to be brought captive to Christ. I say all this with the knowledge that I was caught up in sexual sin myself but have, very thankfully and by God’s great grace, repented. Would it be a surprise that such interests might result in consummation before the wedding night or other sexual sins? The flesh is a wicked task master. [See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/07/marital-rape-doug-wilson-on-dominance-and-submission-in-the-marriage-bed.html#sthash.OfdMXTDi.dpuf%5D
These are the dangerous men scriptures warn us about; clouds without rain, feeding on the church and feasting on power and control, they appear as angels of light. Beware.

It turns out that all is not well in Bradrickville. Found this hidden away. As I have said, and say again the patriarchal quiver full movement is a hotbed for abuse. The man shown here is the husband of one of their daughters whose wedding we attended.

If you’re involved with the Patriarchal or Quiverfull movement just know that it is all a sham with this stuff hidden away cause it’s bad for business, book sales and guest speaker engagements. They are folks just like everyone else but with more secrets than most.

OK. So it’s been a while. So much happening and I am glad to see little activity which I hope translates into healing and moving on.

I am excited for our country and for the Body of Christ. So I heard a story the other day it fits perfectly into some of the Patriarchal, or Islamic-Christian fellowships.

So two pastors are meeting and, after a passionate message regarding sexual impropriety, a time of small group sharing come. One pastor turns to the other pastor and says matter a factly, , “I never did anything with my wife before we were married! How about you?”
The man looks thoughtful and then asks, “I’m not sure, what was her maiden name?”

We are all sinners who need a Savior not more rules.

PRAY FOR FALSE TEACHINGS TO BE EXPOSED AND THE CHURCH FILLED WITH MORE SAVED PEOPLE IN 2017!

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I have never said that segregating with purpose is wrong. Sometimes it is necessary and in the New Test times the men, women and younger children often sat separately. I disagree with the ultimate application of the teachings of the NCFIC.

The NCFIC often point to specific yet isolated events from the OT as proof that they are right and everyone else is WRONG. According to the author of “A Weed in the Church’ anyone age segregating, for other than exclusive times, is un-Godly and practicing Darwinistic philosophies.

Teaching is where the leader pontificates and the crowds admire, honor and pay homage to him typically vying for attention or special blessing. The mis use of scripture is rampart and the sheep assume long peaching means quality teaching. They are clouds w/o rain, having been led astray from the pure gospel they lead others into the same error. Confusing knowledge with Godliness and a growing relationship with Jesus. These teachers love their BOOKS and pretend to have read them all. (Leather bound is preferred.)

I recall what Jesus said to the intelligencia of his day, ‘Search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and they (the scriptures) are what give testimony to me.’ [sorry my own translation here]

I love my brothers and sisters who ride the Calvin Hobby Horse but I would caution us all that in our desire to know God we can be quickly diverted so we need to ‘work out’ our salvation journey. I am afraid that Calvin himself would likely balk at what his teachings have grown into and the festering intellectual and moral superiority of those on both sides of the issue. The bickering brings little resolution and shames our Christ. The NCFIC divides brothers and sisters with false emphasis on out of balance teachings catering to our own pride. It then slowly delivers the Pride and it always delivers: separation from God and then from His Family and then Death.

Church splits, friendships ending. These are the real fruit of the NCFIC. Closer walk with Jesus? Not required just obey the rules as posted. Hey it’s just so sad. I love and still miss my brothers and sisters from our old church but cannot go back into bondage. If any one from there is reading this please say: Hello to all and a special hello to Bill Burger! Love ya man! Also hello to our friend in Sequim, an internet sleuth if there ever was one! She knows it too! Love all three of ya up there! Happy New Year!