I have no personal experience of formal Lojong...On another forum I have just read a startling debate where one of the participants describes Lojong as " stealing the karma of others " and " thwarting their negative desires "..

One of the first things my teacher told me about lojong and tonglen was to do it with threefold purity:no one giving, no one receiving, and no gift. So I guess it's to be done with a view of emptiness. One ofthe slogans is also "Regard all dharmas as dreams." So, it's all a passing memory anyway. The stealing peopleskarma part would be under the "be a child of illusion" slogan which is under relative bodhicitta. This is myunderstanding anyway. Also, my teacher told me about threefold purity when I said I was worried abouttaking on some of the really bad karma. I also think that the practice is basically that, if it's bad, take it in,if it's good, give it away. So take in bad karma, give back good karma. If you think that doing that is bad, take that in, if you think that is good give it away. If you do the practice wrong take it in, if you do it right give it away.Anyway, I like to do it for people on TV because I know it's just a movie and reminds me that life is a movie, andsometimes I can't figure out if I should take the good guys pain away or the bad guys bad karma, if you know what Imean? Anyway

All my teachers have said that tong-len etc. only work on oneself until that time.The love helps others, but the taking of karma is only a skilful means for oneself.In a way, others benefit because you use them as an means to enhance your ownrealizations... but ... for practitioners...

ngodrup wrote:If one actually is a high level Bodhisattva, it would work like that.

All my teachers have said that tong-len etc. only work on oneself until that time.The love helps others, but the taking of karma is only a skilful means for oneself.In a way, others benefit because you use them as an means to enhance your ownrealizations... but ... for practitioners...

Simon E. wrote:I have no personal experience of formal Lojong...On another forum I have just read a startling debate where one of the participants describes Lojong as " stealing the karma of others " and " thwarting their negative desires "..

Any comments ?

Take Lobster with a dash of salt Simon.

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

I've read in many places that the point of tonglen isn't to materially help someone as if you really are taking their negativity. Some people even worry "What if I DO take on their sickness or anger? I'm worried now!" The point from what I've read is to reverse the usual samsaric tendency to cling to pleasure and reject pain, basically to try to make things as comfortable as possible for ourselves. That's kind of antithetical to the work of a bodhisattva! So we turn the habitual tendencies on their head, and instead of filling the space with an epic storyline, maybe a little dharma sneaks in

I've found tonglen most useful not as a structured meditation tool, but in everyday situations. Anger flares up. Tonglen to the rescue, and space is created for compassion and wisdom to grow out of the small, angry view. An obsessive desire flares up for the 1,000th time. The space of tonglen allows for just a moment the possibility of another choice: not the thing, nor rejection of the thing.

So many skillful means point to emptiness, even if it's so far away at the moment that we think, "what? I don't see it." Calling it "stealing" or thinking it really is taking someone's bad day and giving them a bouquet of flowers is missing the point, in my opinion!

Pema Chödrön and Trungpa Rinpoche have several wonderful and accessible commentaries on tonglen.

I think that's what you meant since lojong is an entire set of practices not specifically related to "stealing"

Last edited by duckfiasco on Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I thought there were only a few lojong slogans even directly related to tonglen, am I confused about Lojong meaning something else..I thought it was the 59 slogans.

Anyway, to me Tonglen just seems like a more direct, intuition-led version of something like Metta, being attached directly to the breath it feels like it require less reflection and more..action for lack of a better word. No idea if it does something "real" outside of me...and more and more i'm beginning to think that is a false question to ask in terms of Buddhist practice.

Lojong is a whole genre of literature. "Lo" mind and "jong" to train. Certainly, the Tonglen practice is one of the key points elucidated in many of the Lojong texts.

Regarding Taking and Giving, some comment from HHDL, from the link I posted above:

Of course, it is most unlikely that we shall actually be able to take on the sufferings of others and give them our happiness. When such transference between beings does occur, it is the result of some very strong unbroken karmic connection from the past. However, this meditation is a very powerful means of building up courage in our minds and is, therefore, a highly beneficial practice.

In the Seven Point Thought Transformation it says that we should alternate the practices of taking and giving and mount them on the breath.8 And here, Langri Tangpa says these should be done secretly. As it is explained in the Bodhicaryavatara, this practice does not suit the minds of beginner bodhisattvas—it is something for a select few practitioners. Therefore, it is called secret.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

Check out the above volume, a compilation of 44 different Lojong texts translated expertly by Thupten Jinpa, the main translator of HH Dalai Lama in North America. It is elegantly translated and the scope of the Lojong literature is amazing.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin