Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 8, 2016 19:22:25 GMT -5

No, we do NOT know, DM. And "science" doesn't explain it, rational, it only offers dismissive suggestions like the articles quoted. Saying "the brain caused it" is as unhelpful as dismissing cancer research by saying "it's just a sickness." The studies continue by competent researchers as to why the experiences are so common, similar, and profoundly influencing.

I didn't miss your link, XNA. I read JBT's book and highly recommend it. It's about the dichotomy between left- and right-brain, and what happens when we lose the dominant selfishness (the "I") of our left brain. She experienced it.

Strassman's study of a hallucinogen was so convincing to him that he seriously proposed his research subjects were tapping into another dimension! www.dubiousdisciple.com/2012/05/book-review-dmt-the-spirit-molecule.html It's hard for me to take that suggestion seriously, but it appears that SOMETHING extraordinary is happening, whether it's all in our heads or not.

Post by ellie on Jan 8, 2016 19:49:47 GMT -5

I don't have time to check this at the moment or think about how our fits with JBT's experience, but it is my understanding that both hemispheres of the brain are active for creative as well as logical thinking.

I would want to question any left brain does X and right brain does y claims.

Post by dmmichgood on Jan 9, 2016 2:09:09 GMT -5

I was answering the statement which happened to be your statement. There seems to be many people here who also believe the the same thing, that we don't know what causes NDE's.The truth is that we do know.

Post by dmmichgood on Jan 9, 2016 3:03:58 GMT -5

No, we do NOT know, DM. And "science" doesn't explain it, rational, it only offers dismissive suggestions like the articles quoted. Saying "the brain caused it" is as unhelpful as dismissing cancer research by saying "it's just a sickness." The studies continue by competent researchers as to why the experiences are so common, similar, and profoundly influencing.

I didn't miss your link, XNA. I read JBT's book and highly recommend it. It's about the dichotomy between left- and right-brain, and what happens when we lose the dominant selfishness (the "I") of our left brain. She experienced it.

Strassman's study of a hallucinogen was so convincing to him that he seriously proposed his research subjects were tapping into another dimension! www.dubiousdisciple.com/2012/05/book-review-dmt-the-spirit-molecule.html It's hard for me to take that suggestion seriously, but it appears that SOMETHING extraordinary is happening, whether it's all in our heads or not.

Of course "SOMETHING extraordinary is happening," -we are dying! That is what the "near" in Near Death Experiences means.

You may not want to accept the fact that we do KNOW, but we certainly do know!Even a little bit of medical knowledge about brain function and what happens when it is under stress can attest to that!

Do you accept the fact that when people have schizophrenia & have hallucinations that it has to do with brain function?Or do you, like many people did in the past believe those people were possessed by demons?

Post by rational on Jan 9, 2016 8:18:55 GMT -5

I don't have time to check this at the moment or think about how our fits with JBT's experience, but it is my understanding that both hemispheres of the brain are active for creative as well as logical thinking.

I would want to question any left brain does X and right brain does y claims.

Post by rational on Jan 9, 2016 9:27:38 GMT -5

No, we do NOT know, DM. And "science" doesn't explain it, rational, it only offers dismissive suggestions like the articles quoted. Saying "the brain caused it" is as unhelpful as dismissing cancer research by saying "it's just a sickness." The studies continue by competent researchers as to why the experiences are so common, similar, and profoundly influencing.

Actually, science does explain it very well. And what 'science' claims is reproducible and verifiable.Of course the research shows similar results - it is examining the same organ undergoing the same stress. Similar results are expected. What is more, the results are predicted.

I didn't miss your link, XNA. I read JBT's book and highly recommend it. It's about the dichotomy between left- and right-brain, and what happens when we lose the dominant selfishness (the "I") of our left brain. She experienced it.

Strassman's study of a hallucinogen was so convincing to him that he seriously proposed his research subjects were tapping into another dimension! www.dubiousdisciple.com/2012/05/book-review-dmt-the-spirit-molecule.html It's hard for me to take that suggestion seriously, but it appears that SOMETHING extraordinary is happening, whether it's all in our heads or not.

By the end of his book, Strassman proposes that DMT may provide access to parallel universes (and alien beings) via superconductive quantum computing of the human brain at room temperature, or via interactions with dark matter. Strassman states: "Because I know so little about theoretical physics, there are fewer constraints reining me in regarding such speculations." And for those who know virtually nothing about any given topic, there appear to be no constraints on speculation. It is for exactly this reason that Strassman's theories have both been accepted as fact by many people, and then expanded into creative new directions. A few offshoot theories include the idea that ancient prophets produced more DMT, that electro-magnetic fields increase DMT production, that spending a couple of weeks in total darkness increases DMT production, and that fluoridated water suppresses DMT production. An Internet search will turn up a bounty of wacky spin-offs, all of which cite Strassman's speculations as the facts backing up their further claims.

Addendum by Rick Strassman

"I did my best in the DMT book to differentiate between what is known, and what I was conjecturing about (based upon what is known), regarding certain aspects of DMT dynamics. However, it's amazing how ineffective my efforts seem to have been. So many people write me, or write elsewhere, about DMT, and the pineal, assuming that the things I conjecture about are true. When I was writing the book, I thought I was clear enough, and repeating myself would have gotten tedious.

"We don't know whether DMT is made in the pineal. I muster a lot of circumstantial evidence supporting a reason to look long and hard at the pineal, but we do not yet know. There are data suggesting urinary DMT rises in psychotic patients when their psychosis is worse. However, we don't know whether DMT rises during dreams, meditation, near-death, death, birth or any other endogenous altered state. To the extent those states resemble those brought on by giving DMT, it certainly makes one wonder if endogenous DMT might be involved, and if it were, it would explain a lot. But we don't know yet. Even if the pineal weren't involved, that would have little overall effect on my theories regarding a role for DMT in endogenous altered states, because we do know that the gene involved in DMT synthesis is present in many organs, particularly lung. If the pineal made DMT, it would tie up a lot of loose ends regarding this enigmatic little organ. But people seem to live pretty normals lives without a pineal gland; for example, when it has had to be removed because of a tumor.

"In both these regards--the pineal-DMT connection, and endogenous DMT dynamics--we ought to know a lot more within the next several years due to the efforts of a research group being led by Steven Barker at Louisiana State University. He, with his grad student Ethan McIlhenny, are developing a new super-assay for DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, bufotenine, and metabolites. This assay will be capable of detecting those compounds much more sensitively than previous generations of assays. They're looking at endogenous levels in awake sober normals, to assess baseline values of these compounds. We should have some data from those samples within a year. They also will be looking at pineal tissue. Once we have some baseline data in normal humans in normal waking consciousness, comparisons can be made between those levels and levels in endogenous altered states, like dreams, near-death, and so on."

Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 9, 2016 10:00:29 GMT -5

Guys, we're missing the point, here. DM's response indicates this, as if NDEs were only near-death-experiences.

When I discuss JBT's stroke, it's to point out the similarities between her and NDEs. Maybe it can help us understand NDEs. Experiments with hallucinogenic drugs are not NDEs. But maybe they can help us understand NDEs. DM's hallucinations were not an NDE. But maybe her experience can help understand NDEs.

The term NDE is badly mislabeled: in this field of research, we are no longer talking about people who were near death. We are talking about people who have actually died. Cardiac arrest has occurred, there are no organs functioning. The brain has flatlined, no electrical activity. It is during this state the NDE patients are able to describe their events. Simultaneously with seeing a bright light etc. they see what is happening in the operating room, and they see this from a vantage point above their body. They feel detached.

This happens often enough that research scientists--these are M.D.s, not laymen like you and me--are legitimately excited about their research.

Post by bubbles on Jan 9, 2016 11:03:02 GMT -5

DDI can understand why the MDs are excited. One day they will understand it all.Now that comment about death and no electricity flowing through the body.I had 2 thoughts.One the link of the silver cord.Two leaves me convinced the soul and spirit remain connected.

Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 12:22:21 GMT -5

But, but, but.... DD, your comments open the door to possibilities of awareness after death, something a number here do not wish to even contemplate, having once done so and now completely reject it as rational thought. Just as having experienced what others haven't, leaves me equally ignorant as to what and/or how it happened, how can anyone not experiencing such a thing proclaim with certainty their opinion as fact?

Remember, these are the ones once believing drawing large quantities of blood from diseased folks body and packing wounds with cobwebs were THE answer in most every such condition! Now, many wish to merely treat symptoms due to lack of knowledge, experience, and/or education. No, not all, and surgeons have even learned how to remove a heart from the body for very long periods of time and rebuild it! Likely, if given enough time to do so, they will somehow be able to perform such miracles upon the human brain.

In the short history of my lifetime, belief that the heart was the core of human existence, has passed, and we now know it can be replaced for periods of time. In my early education, such a thing was considered unthinkable, especially by religious know-it-alls. If given time long enough, surely humans will travel in and through suns, repair brains...who knows what all? Once, it was "unthinkable" for humans to walk on the surface of the moon... Or fly, or, or, or...

Post by rational on Jan 9, 2016 18:53:36 GMT -5

The term NDE is badly mislabeled: in this field of research, we are no longer talking about people who were near death. We are talking about people who have actually died. Cardiac arrest has occurred, there are no organs functioning. The brain has flatlined, no electrical activity.

Perhaps the term NDE really is looking at the point of time when the brain is undergoing the changes that occur when it is deprived of oxygen and is shutting down in an effort to prolong actual cellular death.Drugs are often used to induce deep comas and, from the POV of the brain, the brain reacts as if it were dying. Is the experience different if the result of the use of ketamine or the buildup of CO2 and lack of O2?

When the claims of some who have written about their NDEs and claimed to be clinically dead were examined it was determined that they were not close to actually being considered dead. For example, Eben Alexander claimed the disease has caused him to die but it was actually the attending doctor that gave him the medication that put him into a coma. Is his case considered to be a NDE since in was drug induced? Are there any examples of people who were actually dead coming back?

Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 9, 2016 19:45:23 GMT -5

lol rat, if you define 'dead' as 'past the stage of resuscitation', then it'll be hard to find anyone who came back from the dead. If you define it as cardiac arrest, then we have thousands of reported NDEs. But the cases that are most interesting are those who have had no functioning organs (including the brain) for several hours.

Also, remember that the delirium (and coma) caused by lack of oxygen is very different from the experiences reported after death, which are lucid and with strong memories of the event.

Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 9, 2016 22:05:27 GMT -5

Are you saying that they belong to the group of people who really died? Or they part of the group of people who would have died without intervention?

I wasn't saying anything; I was letting you define death, so long as you don't define it as an irreversible event, because then by definition nobody is revived after death. But yes, cardiac arrest is the accepted definition of death...or at least it used to be. It's now understood that the cells don't die for some time and organs can be revived.

Do you have an example of one of these people? Several have made the claim but the record shows a much different set of circumstances.

What record is this? btw, I may need to back off on the claim, because in scanning my books I'm finding just first names. Here's Sam Parnia's book, and he writes about Joe Tiralosi, but Joe was dead only 45 minutes.

Post by rational on Jan 10, 2016 0:35:56 GMT -5

Are you saying that they belong to the group of people who really died? Or they part of the group of people who would have died without intervention?

I wasn't saying anything; I was letting you define death, so long as you don't define it as an irreversible event, because then by definition nobody is revived after death. But yes, cardiac arrest is the accepted definition of death...or at least it used to be. It's now understood that the cells don't die for some time and organs can be revived.

A cardiac arrest has never been the definition of death. And death does have a definition and it is an event from which people do not return. That could be why they call these Near Death Experiences.

Do you have an example of one of these people? Several have made the claim but the record shows a much different set of circumstances.

What record is this? btw, I may need to back off on the claim, because in scanning my books I'm finding just first names. Here's Sam Parnia's book, and he writes about Joe Tiralosi, but Joe was dead only 45 minutes.

The record is the research that has been done looking into these NDE claims. Concerning the large study done regarding NDEs, it looks like there was a single case that was validated.

What is a cause of death that does not involve loss of oxygen to the brain?

Aren't you arguing my point for me? It's AFTER death, after the brain shuts down, that the experiences become lucid.[/quote]It seems that it is the brain shutting down rather than after the brain shuts down.I think that the definition of death is a sticking point.These experiences aren't from people who are actually dead but people who are near death. 500 years ago it would have meant their breath wouldn't have fogged a mirror.

Post by dmmichgood on Jan 10, 2016 0:54:51 GMT -5

Guys, we're missing the point, here. DM's response indicates this, as if NDEs were only near-death-experiences.

When I discuss JBT's stroke, it's to point out the similarities between her and NDEs. Maybe it can help us understand NDEs. Experiments with hallucinogenic drugs are not NDEs. But maybe they can help us understand NDEs. DM's hallucinations were not an NDE. But maybe her experience can help understand NDEs.The term NDE is badly mislabeled: in this field of research, we are no longer talking about people who were near death.

We are talking about people who have actually died.

Cardiac arrest has occurred, there are no organs functioning. The brain has flatlined, no electrical activity. It is during this state the NDE patients are able to describe their events. Simultaneously with seeing a bright light etc. they see what is happening in the operating room, and they see this from a vantage point above their body. They feel detached.

This happens often enough that research scientists--these are M.D.s, not laymen like you and me--are legitimately excited about their research.

NO. -We are NOT talking about people who have actually died!If they had actually died, they would not be able to come back & tell us about it!

Which research scientists believe that the person has actually died and has been dead for a considerable length of time, and then returned to tell us about it?

Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 10, 2016 11:00:35 GMT -5

Alright, we clearly need to define terms. If we define death as being beyond resuscitation, then clearly nobody in the history of the world has ever come back from the dead. We need a word that means the heart has stopped beating (cardiac arrest), the patient has stopped breathing, and the brain has stopped working. These are the three tests generally administered to determine if a person has died.

dm, Sam Parnia, M.D., (listed above) clearly states that his research subjects died. He and other researchers object to the term NDE because it isn't really "near" death. It is actual death. I am not making up my own definition, lol.

Post by SharonArnold on Jan 10, 2016 12:44:12 GMT -5

Alright, we clearly need to define terms. If we define death as being beyond resuscitation, then clearly nobody in the history of the world has ever come back from the dead. We need a word that means the heart has stopped beating (cardiac arrest), the patient has stopped breathing, and the brain has stopped working. These are the three tests generally administered to determine if a person has died.

dm, Sam Parnia, M.D., (listed above) clearly states that his research subjects died. He and other researchers object to the term NDE because it isn't really "near" death. It is actual death. I am not making up my own definition, lol.

I’ve always thought that the key word in “Near Death Experiences” is the word “near”.

I think there needs to be a distinction made between the appearance of death (which speaks to our limits of detection/understanding) and “death beyond resuscitation”. To my mind, only “death beyond resuscitation” qualifies as “actual death”.

Some wisdom traditions teach that we experience what we need/want through the dying process, as dictated by our personality and our culture – but there is a point where we relinquish all this. I’ve always thought this is worthy of consideration. In no way does this take away from the value from NDE's as a source of inspiration in living a meaningful life or being at peace with death.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. ~Rumi

In the end, these things matter most; How well did you love? How fully did you live? How deeply did you learn to let go? ~Buddha

Give up to Grace... the ocean takes care of each and every wave until it reaches the shore. ~Rumi

Even after all this time, the Sun never says to the Earth "You owe me." Look what happens with a love like that, it lights the whole sky. ~Hafiz

Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 10, 2016 13:15:01 GMT -5

I wonder if there is ever a point where a person could be pronounced dead, then? Will resuscitation someday be possible after every cell in the body has died? After decomposition begins? (the body is still "alive" or it wouldn't be decomposing).

I suppose the most important distinction between NDE and other experiences is the lack of brain activity. The brain goes into a flatline state and remains that way.

For example, the "lack of oxygen" theory is generally discredited because other people who experience hypoxia (critically low oxygen) do not experience NDE's. You only experience an NDE after you've...ahem..."died".

It might therefore be more precise (for our purposes, I mean) to define "death" as that point where people begin to experience NDE's. In other words, after measurable brain activity ceases.

Post by xna on Jan 10, 2016 14:12:40 GMT -5

I wonder if there is ever a point where a person could be pronounced dead, then? Will resuscitation someday be possible after every cell in the body has died? After decomposition begins? (the body is still "alive" or it wouldn't be decomposing).

I suppose the most important distinction between NDE and other experiences is the lack of brain activity. The brain goes into a flatline state and remains that way.

For example, the "lack of oxygen" theory is generally discredited because other people who experience hypoxia (critically low oxygen) do not experience NDE's. You only experience an NDE after you've...ahem..."died".

It might therefore be more precise (for our purposes, I mean) to define "death" as that point where people begin to experience NDE's. In other words, after measurable brain activity ceases.

There remains unknowns about the boundaries between life and death.

Is a clone of "you", "you"?

How is non life made alive? The first you, the zygote was alive, but the other 99.999% of "you" that is alive now was made from none life.

What is the "you"? By cell count most of the "you" is not human, as there are more bacterial cells than human ones in the "you".

The old and new "you". Some of the "you" like mature neurons can last a lifetime, but most all of the "you" is long gone. Gastrointestinal cells, skin cells and some immune cells are very short lived. When a human dies it may take hours or day before all the cells in the body die.

Post by dmmichgood on Jan 10, 2016 18:48:51 GMT -5

The doctors miraculously saved his life.The main point I think is that they didn't giveup hope.

It is a super well written account of this event.

About the article on baby Gardell

Please note:

"Physiologically, the key to Gardell’s survival was the fact that he nearly drowned in ice water. “Hypothermia imparts a degree of protection from the detrimental effects of low blood flow and low oxygen,” Dr. Maffei says.

Read More: Frozen Back to Life: How Hypothermia Can Help Cheat Death

The severe cold stopped Gardell’s heart, but it also saved his brain, just as you might put an amputated finger on ice until you can reattach it. At a higher temperature, Gardell’s brain cells would surely have died for lack of oxygen; as it was, they could wait—at least for an hour and 41 minutes"

Post by dmmichgood on Jan 10, 2016 19:02:40 GMT -5

I wonder if there is ever a point where a person could be pronounced dead, then? Will resuscitation someday be possible after every cell in the body has died? After decomposition begins? (the body is still "alive" or it wouldn't be decomposing).

I suppose the most important distinction between NDE and other experiences is the lack of brain activity. The brain goes into a flatline state and remains that way.

For example, the "lack of oxygen" theory is generally discredited because other people who experience hypoxia (critically low oxygen) do not experience NDE's. You only experience an NDE after you've...ahem..."died".

It might therefore be more precise (for our purposes, I mean) to define "death" as that point where people begin to experience NDE's. In other words, after measurable brain activity ceases.

NO, -you are NOT experiencing an NDE "after you've...ahem..."died".

The person is experiencing a NDE (NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE)as they are dying but NOT YET DEAD.

If the "near death experience" is resolved, either by the body's own resolution or from being resuscitated, then the person can return from nearly dying to tell the tale.

Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 10, 2016 19:33:11 GMT -5

quit shouting, DM, and give me a name then for the experiences that occur after the brain, heart and lungs have quit functioning. I honestly don't care what you call it. Researchers use the term NDE simply because of existing tradition, while pointing out that it's mislabeled because they are really after-death-experiences. If you like, I'll switch to ADE.

Of course, that won't satisfy you because your definition of dead is "cannot be revived." ok, give me another word than death. Shall we say "unalive"? These are AUE's then, or already-unalive-experiences.

I'm really not picky. But I see no point in arguing semantics with you.

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