00:01:16 *beach* reiterates the desire for an annotatable Common Lisp HyperSpec.
00:03:22 *|3b|* ponders a clhs-specific annotation bookmarklet
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00:05:32 i guess having to click something to check for annotations would be annoying
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00:14:09 Wow, that page doesn't even say in which order the elements are passed to the test functions.
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00:14:38 One assumes that the first argument comes from SEQUENCE-1 and the second from SEQUENCE-2.
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00:21:27 beach: I think it's specified for all sequence functions somewhere else.
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00:26:54 pkhuong: Hmm, that rings a bell.
00:27:03 *beach* browses.
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00:30:10 *beach* can't find it.
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00:44:09 17.2.1 seems to cover it
00:44:41 not very clearly though (particularly when :key is involved)
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00:48:16 |3b|: Not very clearly indeed.
00:52:18 i guess SEARCH matches the 'being considered iteratively' well enough to say the sequence-1 is O, so elements from that are passed first
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01:50:00 what's the best git repo for slime?
01:52:02 *|3b|* uses git://sbcl.boinkor.net/slime.git
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02:01:32 |3b|: thanks. I'll use it too.
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02:03:24 |3b|: wrt SEARCH etc, I think the intentions are clear. I am just interested in whether the wording is clear as well. No sane implementation would violate the intentions I would think.
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02:45:10 hello everyone
02:45:22 long time not meet
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02:56:45 so I've decided I a new solution for persistent data. I've got ~1M "things" -- which may involve a few "objects" per thing -- in about 100 Mb of data. Not huge, but big enough that I don't want to parse the flatfiles every time. I've been using rucksack but feel the urge to remove it. suggestions?
02:58:12 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-155-5.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp
02:58:54 Just keep the data in the lisp image and save the lisp image when convenient.
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03:06:54 slyrus: seconded, images are interesting to work with
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03:08:34 Anyone here on tbnl-devel?
03:08:36 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.4.252] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
03:09:04 Unless you want to scale in any regard.
03:09:23 slyrus: I almost agree with pjb. Keep it in the Lisp image, but save it in some easily parsable format like what I do for Gsharp for instance.
03:09:40 slyrus: There are a couple of things for serializing (almost) arbitrary lisp objects as text.
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03:10:16 hmm... Ok.
03:10:22 slyrus: That way, you can always read it back in after modifying the code, provided you give suitable :initforms and/or initializ-instance :afters.
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03:26:55 slyrus: cl-store might be what you're after.
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03:35:26 any reason why a call to (sort result #'> :key #'cadr) would give me less elements in a list than when i started?
03:35:39 nevermind, figured it out
03:35:47 forgot to setf result after
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04:14:55 Zhivago: actually, I do use cl-store as well, but I think I was thinking that eventually these datasets might grow to be larger than what I want in the heap and that some sort of indexed database-like thing (like rucksasck) might be in order.
04:18:06 slyrus: foreign heap and mmap ;)
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04:20:58 the other thing to do would be to figure out why the &*@$! inserting objects into rucksack is so slow, fix the problem and then keep using rucksack...
04:21:15 but that's been on the to do list for a long time and I can't seem to get it done
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04:42:01 Anybody using postmodern/postgres - internally it names the prepared query "" I assume so it always gets overridden. . . is there a way to name it something else and delete the same prepared query? I don't see anything in the API that deletes a prepared query.
04:42:09 Or does the transaction take care of that?
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05:30:01 slyrus: is every object insertion done within a transaction? If so, and the end of a transaction physically commits data to disk, that could be quite slow
05:30:21 no, the transactions batch 1000s (or so) of insertions
05:30:24 I'm only speculating though as I only read http://weitz.de/eclm2006/rucksack-eclm2006.txt and never used it or checked its code
05:31:05 another possibility would have to do with the GC
05:31:42 but it seems that freed space is put in a list, so in theory new object allocation should find room quite fast
05:32:05 hello
05:32:45 unless perhaps new object allocation causes a gc run everytime (even if incremental) once the gc-allocated heap is full
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06:37:51 Good afternoon everyone!
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06:40:11 Uh, oh!
06:40:38 When beach quits, it usually means a power cut at home.
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06:42:41 hi
06:42:46 (defun flatten (list) (loop for x in list if (listp x) append (flatten x) else collect x))
06:42:47 hello frx
06:42:56 is this tail recursion?
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06:43:41 frx: No.
06:43:43 flatten could call itself multiple times, so no.
06:45:29 frx: Why do you care?
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06:46:09 curiosity
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06:47:28 is there a way to rewrite that to allow tail call optimization
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06:47:48 frx: Sure.
06:47:59 frx: Start by getting rid of loop.
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06:48:56 frx: Then pass to flatten the thing to flatten, and the information required to continue flattening the rest of the text.
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06:50:34 frx: Such rewrites usually make the code less readable, and you probably won't win anything in performance.
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06:58:38 hello, does anybody know it the cache creation for a caching file server is usually a blocking operation or not ?
07:00:22 isnt it considered a bad style though to write recursion without tail call optimization? since you could break stack
07:00:45 it is considered bad style to use recursion to implement iteration (in CL at least)
07:00:50 i know it's not likely that list will be deep enough to cause a problem here.. but still
07:01:02 |3b| why?
07:01:02 People write recursive code in languages without tail call optimization all the time.
07:01:19 because CL doesn't require TCO, so even tail-recursive code might run out of stack
07:01:20 the CL standard, unlike Scheme, doesn't specify that implementations must support tail-call optimization, so relying on it would be unportable
07:01:26 frx: I agree with |3b|. Don't use recursion on linear structures. Use iteration instead.
07:01:34 also, CL has lots of perfectly good iteration constructs, so pretty silly not to use them :)
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07:02:05 |3b|: Use recursion only when it is adapted to the problem, such as for tree structures.
07:02:06 plage what about on nested structures
07:02:23 as in the code i pasted above
07:02:30 frx: If the structure is not linear, the depth is usually not going to be a problem
07:03:40 in the case of obviously recursive algorithms and/or data structure (like this case), i'd say write the recursion however is clearest, and only worry about stack if you actually run out (or if you can tell in advance 'normal' usage is likely to do so)
07:03:46 ok. btw don't all CL implementations implement tail-call optimizations? or at least all popular?
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07:04:24 many do, but usually only in certain situations (combinations of compiled or not, debug settings, optimization, etc)
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07:04:29 any sane compiler implementor would include tail call optimization when possible
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07:04:49 kiuma: if you're asking if calling read(2) on unix should block, it might block the thread or process until the information was read from disk if it's not in the buffer cache, unless the kernel supports polling for FS related operations (some AIO implementations allow this)
07:05:00 and it might not be obvious what makes code non-tail-recursive, like binding specials, restarts, etc
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07:07:09 A tail call is equivalent to calling a continuation.
07:07:20 Understanding continuations is sufficient.
07:09:05 how come CL did not guarantee tail-call optimization?
07:09:11 phadthai, no I wanted to know this. I'm implementing an http server. I want to be able to use gzip encoding on some static resource file. Since gzipping a 20Mb can be time consuming (among other things) I was thinking to use an internal file cache. I wanted to know if when creating a file cache the http server should be stopped, or more precisely if it's a common use to stop serving requests while caching
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07:10:01 s/stopped/blocked/
07:10:07 kennyd: probably a combination of one or more of the lisp being unified not having it, it being less important with lots of iteration primitives, and interaction with other features
07:10:31 kiuma: i wouldn't expect it to stop
07:10:55 hmm I guess that it'd make sense if other requests accessing the same resource had to wait until the file is ready; probably not for other resources
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07:12:26 kennyd: Because tail-call optimization might have placed a burden on some vendors.
07:12:27 |3b|, I feared this :(. And it makes things very complicated, since my server is event based, and mixing an event based server with multithreading is not a trivial task. ... I need more pondering
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07:14:24 not to speak about mixing with request pipelining
07:15:14 kiuma: hmm, would serving that 1 file block other requests without the compression?
07:16:01 without compression or already compressed makes no difference
07:16:30 'no difference' as in it wouldn't block other requests?
07:16:34 I'll have to pass throught internal cache anyway
07:16:37 I mostly used persistent processes for http application backends, then non-blocking, non-threaded frontend proxy/load balancing servers; in that model the application server would be zipping; but I understand the frontend httpd becomes complicated if it supports dynamic gzipping static documents
07:17:19 perhaps those documents could be pre-zipped by another periodic process?
07:18:05 I'm plannig to do something more 'general'
07:18:11 and the non-compressed document sent if the compressed one is not yet available
07:18:16 i think you could compress it transparently without extra threads, but supporting multiple requests for the same file before it is fully compressed efficiently is a bit messy
07:19:36 actually, i guess multiple requests is a bit messy either way
07:19:51 it is
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07:21:11 an what about this compromise: blocking all requests that need the creation of a cache, while permitting all already cached ?
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07:21:49 of a particular file you mean? that is probably more reasonable, if you can't just send it uncompressed until the compressed version finishes
07:22:12 I don't know if it's a good solution anyway, and overall if I gain speed instead of say ngnix + proxy/myserver
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07:25:02 *|3b|* would probably just let nginx deal with if possible
07:26:16 yea, I'm starting to think that handling gzip compression and so caching from the http server is not the right choice
07:26:58 not so much 'wrong' as 'already solved, and doesn't need to interact with lisp code very much, so less reason to reimplement it in cl'
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07:28:30 |3b|, do you mean ngnix + cl-http-server ?
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07:30:26 right, nginx handles the boring stuff like caching and static files well, so might as well let it deal with that part for now
07:30:51 eventually it would be nice to have the whole thing in CL, but better to start with the interesting parts
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07:41:21 I agree that it makes more sense to use CL on the application-server side for now, that's also where CL's high level features will benefit the most
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07:46:34 you convinced me
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07:47:08 do you think 'interesing' serving byte-ranges requests from the app server ?
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07:48:08 or is it still handled by the proxy ?
07:48:44 depends on the app being served
07:49:10 most of the stuff i do, i'd probably just break the data into small pieces that can be served independently
07:49:11 if the server frontend httpd handles the static files, that's where byte ranges would be used the most, but if your application server must serve large predictable dynamic content supporting it might also make sense
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07:53:23 an exemple would be large files streamed by the application server if authentication is necessary to access them and that it's not possible to instead send a link to a static/cached hard to guess filename in an non-indexable directory
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08:03:21 minion: where can i read about strings?
08:03:22 behind you!
08:03:34 minion: lisp manual
08:03:35 i like lisp... i'm written in it
08:03:47 minion: eliza
08:03:48 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``eliza''.
08:04:04 hey minion can you link me to a lisp tutorial?
08:04:13 minion can you link me to a lisp tutorial?
08:04:20 minion?
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08:05:25 minion: tell isismelting about PCL and OL
08:05:29 oops
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09:42:20 Hi all!
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10:20:07 this may seem like a stupid question, but how do you print carriage return in lisp? (\r in C)
10:20:56 (terpri)
10:21:06 or ~& resp. ~% in format
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10:21:23 the characters are #\r and #\n IIRC
10:21:29 no
10:21:41 both ~& and ~% print newline in here
10:21:45 #\return and #\linefeed, but see the spec
10:21:51 or use (code-char 13)
10:22:21 and it's #\newline not #\linefeed
10:22:42 although #\linefeed might work sometimes
10:22:48 if I type #\linefeed in clisp repl I get #\newline back
10:23:11 drks: that's why you should use CODE-CHAR
10:23:43 okay. is this clisp issue or standard wasn't specific about this
10:23:59 let me try sbcl
10:24:02 #\linefeed is semi-standard (see 13.1.7)
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10:24:51 don't have standard handy at the moment. (code-char 13) return #\return on both sbcl and clisp
10:24:56 http://l1sp.org/cl/13.1.7
10:25:50 ok thanks
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10:34:07 what's the difference between quicklisp and asdf-install aside from the centralized storage of tarballs?
10:34:22 only one of them is awesome
10:34:28 active curation
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10:36:14 gonzojive: quicklisp is actually alive
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10:37:25 *|3b|* seems to remember asdf-install trying to load every .asd in whatever it downloads too
10:37:49 oh shoot, I see my question as #1 on the FAQ
10:40:10 does quicklisp keep up to date on any changes committed to projects? How do project authors control releases and versions?
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10:41:59 gonzojive: they don't, yet. or rather, they prod Xach when a need arises.
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10:43:18 from what i understand, every month or so, xach pulls new code from upstream, and if it still builds it goes out to quicklisp
10:44:13 i think if you want to limit releases you could tell xach to pull from a specific branch/tag/tarball/whatever
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10:58:10 sounds good to me. it would be nice to get the server open sourced, too, just in case Xach falls illl or something tragic
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11:13:10 doesn't seem like it would be too hard, only part that is missing that i know of is the bit that automates actually downloading and testing the stuff, and i think at least a few of the important bits of that are available too
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11:15:24 there isn't really a 'server' part of quicklisp, just a bunch of files available over http
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11:17:07 Is there already something that compares LISP code for differences, ignoring (ie. fixing) order of bindings in LET, correctly checking for gensyms, etc?
11:17:20 I'd like to compare the output of macro expansions
11:18:15 Joreji [~thomas@69-101.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp
11:18:26 well, you can bind *gensym-counter*, which helps a bit
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11:19:44 figuring out if the initialization values of LET bindings had side effects sounds annoying though, not sure how often you would want to allow those to be reordered
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11:54:40 no, it's just about (let ((a ...) (b...))) and (let ((b ...)(a ...))) show no _textual_ difference - that the side effects while running could make a difference is ok
11:55:16 I just want to compare two S-Expressions, like "diff -u" - but getting things like different gensyms automatically adjusted
11:55:17 does the official SBCL Linux x86 binary support Unicode and threading?
11:56:14 z0d: define "official"
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11:56:35 the one on sbcl.org
11:57:13 z0d: well, you can download and check *features*
11:58:53 z0d: but i'm pretty sure it does support both
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12:03:25 indeed
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13:02:16 hi
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13:04:24 can we say => let form in function body is (defun test(file) (let ...)) instead of (defun draw-rgb (file) ((let ... )) because let is special operator not function or macro ?
13:05:38 Night-hacks: That didn't make much sense. Can you try to say it some other way?
13:06:04 why we dont write let in () ?
13:06:34 we just write straight in defun body
13:06:52 Night-hacks: That is not particular to LET.
13:07:11 Night-hacks: That is true with all forms in the body of a DEFUN.
13:07:22 Night-hacks: and generally every pair of parenthesis are meaningful in lisp
13:07:23 Night-hacks: (defun ff (x) (+ x 2))
13:08:07 Night-hacks: Why had you imagined that the LET form would be wrapped in another pair of ()?
13:08:34 beach: thats what i dont know yet !
13:08:52 beach: suppose adding (* x 2) to ff function
13:09:02 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp
13:09:29 is it (defun ff (x) ((+ x 2) (* x 2))) ?
13:09:31 Night-hacks: Then the answer is approximately: You don't ever use parentheses to regroup expressions in Lisp, because as jdz points out, that changes the meaning of the code, usually it becomes invalid.
13:10:01 Night-hacks: That is invalid Common Lisp.
13:10:17 beach: why ?
13:10:39 i have two sexp in body of my function
13:10:45 Night-hacks: Because the first element of a list should be one of: lambda, special operator, function or macro.
13:10:48 not really, you have only one
13:10:52 But not another list.
13:10:57 Night-hacks: To group expressions (and return the value of the last one), use PROGN as in (progn (+ x 2) (* x 2)), but in the case of DEFUN, it contains an implicit progn, so you can write (defun ff (x) (+ x 2) (* x 2))
13:11:22 naryl: ((lambda (x) (1+ x) 5) works :D
13:11:36 dlowe: s/lambda/lambda form/
13:11:38 (and of course the result of (+ x 2) will be lost and is dead code, anyway)
13:11:41 well, it would if I balanced the parens correctly :p
13:11:43 Or how do you call it properly? :)
13:12:12 Night-hacks: Why? Because Common Lisp doesn't use parentheses to regroup expressions arbitrarily the way other languages (and mathematics) do.
13:12:48 parentheses are an explicit function call or special operator form
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13:13:03 Night-hacks: In CL, x means the value of the variable x, but (x) means the value of calling the function x on zero arguments.
13:14:12 Night-hacks: you know how 'let' can take any number of arguments in its body? same thing with defun
13:14:29 anderson [~user@c-76-18-219-103.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
13:14:35 (let vars &body body) vs (defun params &body body)
13:14:57 vs (progn &body body)
13:15:14 -!- gonzojive [~red@101.109.73.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
13:15:18 Phoodus: all the same
13:15:36 yep, and all the same in terms of returning the value of the last expression of the body
13:16:08 (though there are some forms do not do that, like (prog1 val &body rest) that will return val regardless of what the body evaluates to)
13:16:44 oops, (defun name params &body body)
13:17:16 Phoodus: aww, but you left out docstring and declarations!
13:17:23 heh
13:17:32 but how (defun ff (x) (+ x 2) (* x 2)) can be right ? where is body parantheses ?
13:17:42 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.228] has joined #lisp
13:17:53 Night-hacks: Body parentheses?
13:17:54 Night-hacks: the body is an implicit progn
13:17:58 &body is a synonym for &rest, which means "everything else in the form". You don't need parens
13:18:09 to surround just the body
13:18:20 everything from the params to the close paren is the body
13:18:41 *Phoodus* muffles jdz ;)
13:19:03 got it now
13:19:05 Night-hacks: you're committing the classic error of thinking that lisp is text. It isn't. The text is parsed into data objects using a simple format using parentheses.
13:19:13 Night-hacks: Do you know about &rest parameters?
13:19:25 drdo: yeah
13:19:26 The data objects are what the language is made of, not the text.
13:19:57 Night-hacks: well, &body is just another name for &rest
13:19:57 think needs a long time to be familiar with all of the language concepts
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13:20:25 Night-hacks: it is actually quite simple
13:20:38 Night-hacks: in lisp you have either atoms or lists
13:20:48 ok
13:20:50 Night-hacks: atoms are things like numbers, strings, symbols, etc
13:20:54 jdz: the CL evaluation model is not simple at all
13:21:06 Night-hacks: list is a collection of either atoms or other lists
13:21:14 drdo: conceptially it is
13:21:20 when I make a concatenate stream opening two files, when I'm done, is it sufficient to close the concatented stream, or I need to close the two file streams too ?
13:21:30 Night-hacks: so, atoms evaluate to themselves
13:21:46 jdz: Collection? A *sequence* rather.
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13:22:05 Night-hacks: evaluation of a list is a bit trickier: lisp must check what the first element of the list is to see what to do
13:22:24 jdz:
13:22:24 Night-hacks: if it is a function, it calls it with the result of evaluation the remainder of the list
13:22:27 oops, sorry.
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13:22:38 Night-hacks: if it is a macro, the macro is expanded before evaluation
13:23:00 Night-hacks: that's why putting (+ x 2) in the first position of a list does not make much sense
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13:23:48 beach: yeah, forgive my sloppiness; i hope my noble intentions will make up for that.
13:24:25 jdz: not all atoms evaluate to themselves.
13:24:25 beach: well, it's also a collection, but a sequence is more specific :P
13:24:46 zfx: shush
13:24:47 Night-hacks: please look at the evaluation section of the HyperSpec.
13:25:18 jdz: it is a fundamentally important thing to understand, so there is no point talking nonsense in here.
13:25:36 jdz: does a symbol evaluate to itself?
13:25:47 NIL does
13:25:51 zfx: i'm not talking nonsese, really. i'm trying a person to understand stuff here.
13:25:52 and T
13:25:59 drdo: do all symbols evaluate to themselves?
13:26:02 nop
13:26:14 Ok thanks for helps
13:26:31 jdz: helpful must check refrences again
13:26:36 jdz: the wrong stuff?
13:27:05 zfx: we talk about variables when it's time, k?
13:27:45 jdz: why, are they not very important to you?
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13:28:06 zfx: instead of complaining about calling what i say nonsense, you can just as easily tell that evaluating symbols is more tricky than other atoms
13:28:23 instead of talking about atoms and lists, it would be much more helpful to talk about forms.
13:28:49 If only there were some information-dense format with which beginner lisp information could be transmitted, instead of the noisy answers you get from irc channels.
13:29:24 They used to have books, but the Kindle put an end to that.
13:29:39 ChibaPet: what's a Candle?
13:29:51 keywords also evaluate to themselves
13:30:39 dlowe: it exists. they're called books.
13:30:54 zfx: I believe you missed the irony.
13:35:41 dlowe: sorry. :)
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14:09:13 hi
14:09:38 is there any library for self-modifying program?
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14:11:25 Posterdati: at which level, replacing lisp forms or assembly language?
14:12:26 Phoodus: replacing lisps form would be right, but what about running code?
14:13:02 Phoodus: one may modify an executing program?
14:14:23 Posterdati: that's what people do all the time.
14:14:38 Posterdati: for instance, redefining functions.
14:16:04 Posterdati: (loop (setf (symbol-function 'f) (generate-random-function)) (f))
14:16:10 Posterdati: have you used SLIME?
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14:16:36 jdz: fmakunbound
14:16:47 (defun generate-random-function () (coerce `(lambda () (print ,(random))) 'function))
14:16:47 jdz: sure I'm developing with it
14:17:09 Posterdati: every time you (re)define a function, you're modifying your program.
14:17:27 (defun generate-random-function () (coerce `(lambda () (print ,(random 1.0))) 'function))
14:17:28 there.
14:17:53 jdz: this is dufferent from macro, ok!
14:18:18 when macro expansion is achieved one time only
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14:18:33 This is entirely unrelated.
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14:26:48 pjb: ok, this is amazing functions like data then
14:27:31 :)
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14:37:12 Posterdati: also, if you replace a function while it's running or lower down on the stack, the old version will finish executing
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