I don't think there's any sin associated with that. I don't condemn somebody for doing that."

You know Pat...I don't give a flying fark at rolling doughnut what you think, as if your an arbertrator of what's sin or not. That ego you have..that even to make what you "Think" is sin or not is amazingly self-serving.Especially when it's not your place to "Condemn somebody for doing that"...HELLO..you can't do that unless you think farken GOD---asshole.

You know Pat...I don't give a flying fark at rolling doughnut what you think, as if your an arbertrator of what's sin or not. That ego you have..that even to make what you "Think" is sin or not is amazingly self-serving.Especially when it's not your place to "Condemn somebody for doing that"...HELLO..you can't do that unless you think farken GOD---asshole.

I think the saying should be moved from "Don't judge people" to "Don't judge people for things other than their actions". If you never judge someone, you're going to live your life getting ripped off constantly by bad people. There comes a point where you simply must judge people by the things that they do.

Interesting that the Christian community - of all stripes - are starting to pretend to be more tolerant, in very sharply defined, very fluid statements that can be backed down on with their base but will help to get young people and their disposable income into their churches. It's almost as if they're starting to realize that the reason they're losing money and power is that everyone is tired of hearing how bigoted they are.

Granted it gets a little complicated, but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

Homosexuality is about sex with someone of the same gender

Transgenderism is about gender alone.

Not all transgendered people engage in sexual relations with members of their same biological sex

I don't really care who farks who, but I was thinking logically: If in your life you have officially been both genders, then regardless of which one you prefer it is possible to connect the dots in a homo way.

You know Pat...I don't give a flying fark at rolling doughnut what you think, as if your an arbertrator of what's sin or not. That ego you have..that even to make what you "Think" is sin or not is amazingly self-serving.Especially when it's not your place to "Condemn somebody for doing that"...HELLO..you can't do that unless you think farken GOD---asshole.

I think the saying should be moved from "Don't judge people" to "Don't judge people for things other than their actions". If you never judge someone, you're going to live your life getting ripped off constantly by bad people. There comes a point where you simply must judge people by the things that they do.

Benevolent Misanthrope:Interesting that the Christian community - of all stripes - are starting to pretend to be more tolerant, in very sharply defined, very fluid statements that can be backed down on with their base but will help to get young people and their disposable income into their churches. It's almost as if they're starting to realize that the reason they're losing money and power is that everyone is tired of hearing how bigoted they are.

Even then, it would not stop the religious right in America from discriminating against people for their sexuality or gender issues, or even just being a little more masculine or feminine from the norm for their gender. You see, the Religious Right does not believe anyone did not have a choice to do this. They CHOOSE to be transgendered. They choose to be gay/lesbian. It's a "lifestyle". That's how they justify their actions to their conscience at night.

Granted it gets a little complicated, but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

Homosexuality is about sex with someone of the same gender

Transgenderism is about gender alone.

Not all transgendered people engage in sexual relations with members of their same biological sex

Is that really true? Is there someone who's like "I'm a woman trapped inside a man's body... but that woman is a lesbian who likes other women"? And in Robertson-land, does that count as hetero (considering that in TFA he says he's still not down with the concept without the operation)? Honest questions.

Granted it gets a little complicated, but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

Homosexuality is about sex with someone of the same gender

Transgenderism is about gender alone.

Not all transgendered people engage in sexual relations with members of their same biological sex

Is that really true? Is there someone who's like "I'm a woman trapped inside a man's body... but that woman is a lesbian who likes other women"? And in Robertson-land, does that count as hetero (considering that in TFA he says he's still not down with the concept without the operation)? Honest questions.

And... why did I not think to post a picture of Janet Garrison scissoring Xerxes with that question?

Oddly enough, Saudi Arabia is also very moderate about gender reassignment surgery. Their policy is that it is acceptable if there is a "real reason", "other than vanity and a desire for attention". If so, their government pays for sexual reassignment surgery as well.

It is "juristically compared to that of a physical hermaphrodite in Islamic Law. Once a physical hermaphrodite's dominant sexual orientation becomes clear, the hermaphrodite is thereafter considered to be of that gender."

This generous attitude probably stems from the problems associated with incestuous marriage in Arabia, producing far more than the typical number of children with all sorts of birth defects. They are willing to spend the bucks to get good pediatric care, and take a sensible approach to it.

Super Chronic:Is there someone who's like "I'm a woman trapped inside a man's body... but that woman is a lesbian who likes other women"?

Ignoring the issue of what haploid cell they produce, part of the background of being transgendered is that the brain reacts in a similar manner to the sex they feel they are, even though the brain is not completely "femininzed" in the case of MtFs and "masculinized" in the case of FtMs.

Since this is the case, a transgendered individual dating someone of the same biological sex would in all reality be "straight", as the interaction is the same it would be if the person was born with a biologically female body and gender-normal brain.

Granted it gets a little complicated, but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

Homosexuality is about sex with someone of the same gender

Transgenderism is about gender alone.

Not all transgendered people engage in sexual relations with members of their same biological sex

Is that really true? Is there someone who's like "I'm a woman trapped inside a man's body... but that woman is a lesbian who likes other women"? And in Robertson-land, does that count as hetero (considering that in TFA he says he's still not down with the concept without the operation)? Honest questions.

That is totally true. Whether that counts as hetero or homo in Robertson-land is anybody's guess.

ekdikeo4:I think the saying should be moved from "Don't judge people" to "Don't judge people for things other than their actions". If you never judge someone, you're going to live your life getting ripped off constantly by bad people. There comes a point where you simply must judge people by the things that they do.

Yes. Clearly we know nothing of other people's intent with respect to any action, other than what they tell us, so it's only the action itself we may judge. The quotation many people are citing with this statement (Matthew 7) does not, in context, say that we should withhold judgement, but rather that judgement should be tempered with understanding of how you want to be judged.

And we should always bear in mind that past actions only have limited predictive value with respect to future actions, because circumstances and people are constantly changing everyone involved is limited by their own perception.

revrendjim:but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

Well, I knew a person in college who was born a male, with a fully operating penis and everything. This person identified as a male until around my sophomore year of college. At that point, I lived abroad for 1/2 year. The next year when I returned, this person was now female (hormone therapy and everything,) and I barely recognized "her." Interestingly, she identified as a lesbian at the time I returned.

So she was apparently a lesbian woman trapped inside a man's body, and corrected it with a sex-change operation.

So if she had decided she was a "he," and not transgender, then the person would be heterosexual. But because the person was transgender, the person was homosexual from the perspective of their new identity.

hardinparamedic:Cyno01: If you want people to stop equating gender identity with sexuality, then maybe the lgbtqcbbqasdf community or whatever acronym they're using for themselves this week should split.

People who are being discriminated against stick together. Imagine that.?

It's almost as if people shouldn't be complacent with idiots who have nothing but bad intentions in mind for them.

Say the NAACP and the JDL formed one organization, but then whined about it every time someone compared jews and blacks?

hardinparamedic:Cyno01: If you want people to stop equating gender identity with sexuality, then maybe the lgbtqcbbqasdf community or whatever acronym they're using for themselves this week should split.

People who are being discriminated against stick together. Imagine that.?

It's almost as if people shouldn't be complacent with idiots who have nothing but bad intentions in mind for them.

Plus the whole Stonewall thing was started by folks who still sit in the back of the lgbt bus . ...

In Christian dogma it's the actual act of homosexual sex that is a sin, not the act of a man being in love with a man, or a women in love with a women. With that in mind for someone to change sex would not be seen as a sin since allows them to have man/women sexual intercourse.

This behavior surprises and fascinates me. Especially considering that most people equate transgender people with homosexuals or even look down upon transgender folks as something worse than homosexuality. Heck, even a good number of gay folks don't view transgender people in the best of light.

But seriously, despite how I feel about Mr. Robertson and what he stands for, I hope he's taking this stand for the right reasons, and I hope it makes a positive difference for people who are struggling with the decision to transition or who are struggling with their transition. So, kudos to him, and kudos to them.

codergirl42:I'm transgender and I identify as bisexual, even though I married a man. It requires much less explanation than referring to myself as gay or straight.

I can imagine, given all the questions people would ask.

You'd probably know more about this than I - I've been hearing things about "trans erasure" in the QuILTBAG advocacies, campaigns and just in general (sorry, no specific examples handy right now). Is that true, and if so why would the group turn against one of their own like that?

Shedim:ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: I'm transgender and I identify as bisexual, even though I married a man

So were you born with a Y chromosome?

Chromosomal makeup ≠ gender.

Just wait. Eventually this thread will devolve into people telling us how transgenders are mentally ill and a danger to themselves because they want to "mutilate" themselves, and how like gays they just need to go to Jesus Camp to learn how to be normal.

I never said it did. I asked a specific question to a specific person....was that person born with a Y chromosome? I was just curious. I've dated someone who was trans. I have not problem with it at all. It was just curiosity. That's all.

hardinparamedic:Just wait. Eventually this thread will devolve into people telling us how transgenders are mentally ill and a danger to themselves because they want to "mutilate" themselves, and how like gays they just need to go to Jesus Camp to learn how to be normal.

I must've missed that - and I usually visit every transgender thread. Dear Gods that's horrifying.

Mind you, the last thread I was in had someone claiming that Iran has the highest rate of successful transgender surgeries in the world because they were forcing all the homosexuals to go through with it, so maybe it's just a different version of crazy.

CK2005:Cyno01: If you want people to stop equating gender identity with sexuality, then maybe the lgbtqcbbqasdf community or whatever acronym they're using for themselves this week should split.

Not all gays/lesbians/bisexuals relate to transsexuals. I think it's more that we face some similar discrimination than that we're saying they're exactly like us.

Oh no, I understand that completely, I know gays who are transphobic because they think transexuals are just gays who cant/wont admit their orientation and would rather cop out by saying they're straight women in a man's body. Acceptance starts with small steps, but if the transformers want to hitch their wagon on the gay rights train, they need to get over the average resident of Peoria confusing/conflating sexual and gender issues.

ambassador_ahab:I never said it did. I asked a specific question to a specific person....was that person born with a Y chromosome? I was just curious. I've dated someone who was trans. I have not problem with it at all. It was just curiosity. That's all.

Last time someone posted something along those lines in a previous thread it was followed up by the usual "then you aren't female and never will be " bullshiat that usually gets posted in them, so I was being pre-emptive. My apologies for jumping on you.

revrendjim:Granted it gets a little complicated, but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

If you define gender with respect to genitalia, and homosexuality therefore as being sexually attracted to people with the type of same genitalia you have, and sexual attraction as being distinctly "for" or "against" each of the types of genitalia, then yes at some point in the process there's probably "homosexuality" in the mix.

But there are lots of ways around that. The easiest is to recognize that "homosexuality" is not an independent attribute; it depends on the gender of both parties (and therefore also on the way gender and sexual attraction are defined, including the existence of a clear distinction among genders) and so anything you do to change gender in the middle of the discussion makes the concept of "homosexuality" moot just like changing the frame of reference in the middle of a physics problem would make it impossible to have any rational discussion about "velocity" over the entire period.

Another is to treat gender assignment as a "correction" to avoid homosexual behavior; it's generally not a sin to make a change in your life that will prevent future sin.

ambassador_ahab:codergirl42: I'm transgender and I identify as bisexual, even though I married a man

So were you born with a Y chromosome?

I was born with a Y chromosome. I could identify as homosexual but then people say, "but you married a man", with a confused look on their face. I otherwise have a fairly vanilla heterosexual relationship with my husband. He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi. I'm actually comfortable with all three designations so it can sometimes change based on the situation.

hardinparamedic:Shedim: ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: I'm transgender and I identify as bisexual, even though I married a man

So were you born with a Y chromosome?

Chromosomal makeup ≠ gender.

Just wait. Eventually this thread will devolve into people telling us how transgenders are mentally ill and a danger to themselves because they want to "mutilate" themselves, and how like gays they just need to go to Jesus Camp to learn how to be normal.

hardinparamedic:Shedim: I must've missed that - and I usually visit every transgender thread. Dear Gods that's horrifying.

Start here, and read by Control-F and searching his name from there down.

Oh, THAT troll. I have it blocked as a "Semantics troll" since it was trying to argue in the Archbishop Tutu thread that it was possible to disapprove of homosexuality without being homophobic and hiding behind argumentum ad dictionarium when it was called to supply more information.

hardinparamedic:And a person is legally allowed to change their sex once they are into their transition process.

Now if only we were legally allowed to change our height. Oh wait, we are, because height isn't an attribute the government/society finds relevant to the way we are expected to treat people. The whole idea that there's any need to officially put people into box A or box B based on the conditions of their birth is ridiculous and essentially guarantees discrimination based on that label.

Xanadone:I think Robertson's been kidnapped by aliens and replaced with a look-a-like. The idea that Pat would say something somewhat sane and humane on this subject just doesn't compute.

He's been having these odd revelations for a while now. First he said Marijuana was ok and should be legalized and then someone wrote into his show asking his opinion on oral sex. His woman co-star seemed embarrassed but he seemed shocked that anyone would even bother asking. He said whatever happens in the bedroom of married adults is just fine.

profplump:Now if only we were legally allowed to change our height. Oh wait, we are, because height isn't an attribute the government/society finds relevant to the way we are expected to treat people. The whole idea that there's any need to officially put people into box A or box B based on the conditions of their birth is ridiculous and essentially guarantees discrimination based on that label.

Xanadone:I think Robertson's been kidnapped by aliens and replaced with a look-a-like. The idea that Pat would say something somewhat sane and humane on this subject just doesn't compute.

And back at the alien's HQ, they have the real Pat tied to a chair viewing the results on a monitor and getting more and more pissed off while the aliens are harvesting the energy from his anger for sustenance.

I really can't draw a bead on Robertson. One week he'll be saying how a disaster is God's punishment for America's tolerance of homosexuality, then he'll go off and say that we need drug policy reform in the US because too many people are in jail for victimless crimes.

It's like he's the sanest man on the planet who tries to act crazy, or vice-versa. Either way, he's doing a fantastic job.

Gyrfalcon:swaniefrmreddeer: Pat's been watching the pope and realizes people like you more when don't act like a giant douche. He ain't foolin' nobody.

This?

sgnilward: He's just out of his farkin mind. Just like he's been for at least the last twenty years...

Or this?

I'm going with the latter, quite honestly. I think he's finally lost whatever mind he had left.

Remember that he's 83 years old, so he probably knows he's going to die soon, and he believes that once he's dead he will be judged for the way he treated other people (or at least his religion claims that). Maybe he's just reached the "Oh, I should probably not be quite such an asshole then" stage.

bmihura:Benevolent Misanthrope: Interesting that the Christian community - of all stripes - are starting to pretend to be more tolerant, in very sharply defined, very fluid statements that can be backed down on with their base but will help to get young people and their disposable income into their churches. It's almost as if they're starting to realize that the reason they're losing money and power is that everyone is tired of hearing how bigoted they are.

CK2005:Cyno01: If you want people to stop equating gender identity with sexuality, then maybe the lgbtqcbbqasdf community or whatever acronym they're using for themselves this week should split.

Not all gays/lesbians/bisexuals relate to transsexuals. I think it's more that we face some similar discrimination than that we're saying they're exactly like us.

My experience as a bisexual is quite different (and frankly MUCH easier) from someone trans, but yes we face similar discrimination and as a small minority group tend to stick together. It amuses me to no end that I'm actually defending trans inclusion, usually it's the 'why are the bisexuals included'.

1. He's finally afraid that all the asshole things he's said during his money-grubbing asshole career are going to piss god off when he dies real soon, so Pat's trying to be more christ-like here at the end.---or---2. He's exhibiting dementia/Alzheimers/stroke

After my asshole grandfather had a stroke he became an actually enjoyable person, so I'm going with number 2.

I know this behavior. My teenage daughter is just like him when she tells me she did her homework, but it's just another crappy attempt at manipulation. Same as Pat Robertson when he manipulates his donors.

You may think you talk the good talk, Pat, but let's look at what your behavior shows. It's lacking. Same as my daughter on grading day. But my daughter is being judged by a teacher, not the Almighty.

When you meet your maker, Pat, and you get well deserved lots and lots of zeros, what then Pat?

He probably thinks the reproductive organs work in the new gender, and only XXs with a weener or XYs with a baby factory get trans-surgicaled. So *snip* now it's all the way things were meant to be and they can have all the Jesus babies that Jesus Jesused up at the time of Jesus creation.

Even then, it would not stop the religious right in America from discriminating against people for their sexuality or gender issues, or even just being a little more masculine or feminine from the norm for their gender. You see, the Religious Right does not believe anyone did not have a choice to do this. They CHOOSE to be transgendered. They choose to be gay/lesbian. It's a "lifestyle". That's how they justify their actions to their conscience at night.

Hey that makes sense. What is uncool is saying "right" and "left" though. I don't give a shiat about religion, but I do give a shiat about political divide.

Lady Indica:CK2005: Cyno01: If you want people to stop equating gender identity with sexuality, then maybe the lgbtqcbbqasdf community or whatever acronym they're using for themselves this week should split.

Not all gays/lesbians/bisexuals relate to transsexuals. I think it's more that we face some similar discrimination than that we're saying they're exactly like us.

My experience as a bisexual is quite different (and frankly MUCH easier) from someone trans, but yes we face similar discrimination and as a small minority group tend to stick together. It amuses me to no end that I'm actually defending trans inclusion, usually it's the 'why are the bisexuals included'.

Why do you think that is with trans?

I mean, I'm not some closed-minded douche, but when I'm around some dude/chick that is trans, I find myself expending quite a bit of mental power in the back of my mind trying to figure out what they are as defined by their sex chromosomes. It's like something that the mind immediately goes and tries to figure out.

ambassador_ahab:codergirl42: He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi.

If I just saw you walking down the street, I'd probably assume you were female. After dating someone that was trans, I quit identifying as anything (why must we throw a label on it?)

Well we could also identify as pansexual, since I've also dated both FtoM and MtoF trans people.

Lady Indica:CK2005: Cyno01: If you want people to stop equating gender identity with sexuality, then maybe the lgbtqcbbqasdf community or whatever acronym they're using for themselves this week should split.

Not all gays/lesbians/bisexuals relate to transsexuals. I think it's more that we face some similar discrimination than that we're saying they're exactly like us.

My experience as a bisexual is quite different (and frankly MUCH easier) from someone trans, but yes we face similar discrimination and as a small minority group tend to stick together. It amuses me to no end that I'm actually defending trans inclusion, usually it's the 'why are the bisexuals included'.

yeah, it's odd. I've been discriminated against by homophobic heterosexuals and biphobic homosexuals and I don't really identify completely with either side.

hardinparamedic:Shedim: ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: I'm transgender and I identify as bisexual, even though I married a man

So were you born with a Y chromosome?

Chromosomal makeup ≠ gender.

Just wait. Eventually this thread will devolve into people telling us how transgenders are mentally ill and a danger to themselves because they want to "mutilate" themselves, and how like gays they just need to go to Jesus Camp to learn how to be normal.

Been a big Genesis fan, ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke.

Before that I didn't really understand any of their work, it was too artsy, too intellectual...it was on Duke where Phil Collins presence became more apparent.I think Invisible Touch is the group's undisputed masterpiece, its an epic meditation on intangibility at the same time it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding 3 albums...

Christy, take off the robe...

Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford you can practically hear every nuance of every instrument,

Sabrina...remove your dress,

In terms of lyrical craftsmanship and sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism,

Sabrina why don't you uh, dance a little...

Take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion", in this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority. In Too Deep is the most moving pop song of the 1980's, about monogamy and commitment, the song is extremely uplifting...their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as uh, anything I've heard in rock...

Christy, get down on your knees so Sabrina can see your ass....

Phil Collins solo career, it seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying in a narrower way.

Especially songs like, In The Air Tonight and Against All Odds...

Sabrina, don't just stare at it, eat it!

I also think, Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist.This is Sussudio, great, great song...personal favorite.

When I was a little kid, I was stuck at my fundie grandmother's house, and this guy was on TV. They were having some lively discussion about how the decline of America was totally due to minorities, when Pat fell asleep. The lady with the poodle hair finally noticed, and nudged him awake.

He came to with a start, and hollered, "I REMEMBER WHEN ROCKS WAS MONEY."

The first question Pat Robertson answered involved caring for a suicidal friend by understanding that they are insane and probably hopped up on tranquilizers, because most firearm suicides involve people blitzed out on Ambien. The second question he answered involved reassuring a poor woman who, instead of tithing, used that money to keep the power on and her children fed, that she would not go to hell for not tithing, but that by not tithing she was insulting God who would provide for her and her children if she only would drop 10% of her family's income to the church. The third question was Pat Robertson being entirely reasonable about respecting transgender people who have actually "amputated" their bodies, but he was on the fence about people who didn't go the distance. In the last question, Pat jumped through some biblical cherry-picking hoops to tell some woman that she shouldn't feel guilty for divorcing her abusive husband.

So on the whole it was a pretty reasonable question and answer segment. The biggest stand he took was passive aggressively telling a woman in poverty that she should fork over some more cash and maybe she wouldn't be so poor, but other than that his statements were pretty even-handed. Maybe the dude is softening up in his old age. His head of the PTA, VP of the local HOA, and local leader of the community co-host tried to goad him into incendiary comments a couple times, and he just went "Who am I to judge?"

You know Pat...I don't give a flying fark at rolling doughnut what you think, as if your an arbertrator of what's sin or not. That ego you have..that even to make what you "Think" is sin or not is amazingly self-serving.Especially when it's not your place to "Condemn somebody for doing that"...HELLO..you can't do that unless you think farken GOD---asshole.

This is the most asshole comment I have ever seen. Hating someone for who you think they are rather than their comments. I don't like the dude much either, but in this case he said something halfway decent.

You know Pat...I don't give a flying fark at rolling doughnut what you think, as if your an arbertrator of what's sin or not. That ego you have..that even to make what you "Think" is sin or not is amazingly self-serving.Especially when it's not your place to "Condemn somebody for doing that"...HELLO..you can't do that unless you think farken GOD---asshole.

I think the saying should be moved from "Don't judge people" to "Don't judge people for things other than their actions". If you never judge someone, you're going to live your life getting ripped off constantly by bad people. There comes a point where you simply must judge people by the things that they do.

I like that line of thinking.

You know, that's essentially what Matthew 7 already says. "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

That's the verse people always leave out when they harp on you about 'not judging.' It has also handily started a few arguments with my biblethumper in-laws who know all there is to know about the bible. Except for the inconvenient parts. Or the parts that offend them. Or the parts that conflict with their lifestyle or habits. Or the parts... well, you know the parts.

codergirl42:ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi.

If I just saw you walking down the street, I'd probably assume you were female. After dating someone that was trans, I quit identifying as anything (why must we throw a label on it?)

Well we could also identify as pansexual, since I've also dated both FtoM and MtoF trans people.

Same, well except I've only been friends with FTM's , hey they were married or getting married. Otherwise curious, curious.

codergirl42:Well we could also identify as pansexual, since I've also dated both FtoM and MtoF trans people.

I've dated FTM and had sexual relations with females and males, but throwing a specific label on it seemed silly to me. I identify by my name and just let it be. The way I see it, if I'm seriously involved with someone and they want to have sex with me, that person isn't going to care about my "label" at that point.

So on the whole it was a pretty reasonable question and answer segment. The biggest stand he took was passive aggressively telling a woman in poverty that she should fork over some more cash and maybe she wouldn't be so poor, but other than that his statements were pretty even-handed. Maybe the dude is softening up in his old age. His head of the PTA, VP of the local HOA, and local leader of the community co-host tried to goad him into incendiary comments a couple times, and he just went "Who am I to judge?"

ambassador_ahab:codergirl42: Well we could also identify as pansexual, since I've also dated both FtoM and MtoF trans people.

I've dated FTM and had sexual relations with females and males, but throwing a specific label on it seemed silly to me. I identify by my name and just let it be. The way I see it, if I'm seriously involved with someone and they want to have sex with me, that person isn't going to care about my "label" at that point.

Yeah, my husband and I refer to our relationship as a marriage, rather than a gay or straight marriage. No need to make a distinction since neither descriptors are really apt.

tinfoil-hat maggie:codergirl42: ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi.

If I just saw you walking down the street, I'd probably assume you were female. After dating someone that was trans, I quit identifying as anything (why must we throw a label on it?)

Well we could also identify as pansexual, since I've also dated both FtoM and MtoF trans people.

Same, well except I've only been friends with FTM's , hey they were married or getting married. Otherwise curious, curious.

I didn't date either out of any sense of curiosity or anything. To me it doesn't matter what genitals a person has but whether or not we were compatible in a relationship.

show me:optikeye: I don't think there's any sin associated with that. I don't condemn somebody for doing that."

You know Pat...I don't give a flying fark at rolling doughnut what you think, as if your an arbertrator of what's sin or not. That ego you have..that even to make what you "Think" is sin or not is amazingly self-serving.Especially when it's not your place to "Condemn somebody for doing that"...HELLO..you can't do that unless you think farken GOD---asshole.

This is the most asshole comment I have ever seen. Hating someone for who you think they are rather than their comments. I don't like the dude much either, but in this case he said something halfway decent.

codergirl42:ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: Well we could also identify as pansexual, since I've also dated both FtoM and MtoF trans people.

I've dated FTM and had sexual relations with females and males, but throwing a specific label on it seemed silly to me. I identify by my name and just let it be. The way I see it, if I'm seriously involved with someone and they want to have sex with me, that person isn't going to care about my "label" at that point.

Yeah, my husband and I refer to our relationship as a marriage, rather than a gay or straight marriage. No need to make a distinction since neither descriptors are really apt.

As long as y'all are both happy that's all that matter's. And yea I rarely term my relationships as LGB I do understand people want to classify for whatever reason./Pansexual is such a nice term but most people don't know it.

codergirl42:tinfoil-hat maggie: codergirl42: ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi.

If I just saw you walking down the street, I'd probably assume you were female. After dating someone that was trans, I quit identifying as anything (why must we throw a label on it?)

Well we could also identify as pansexual, since I've also dated both FtoM and MtoF trans people.

Same, well except I've only been friends with FTM's , hey they were married or getting married. Otherwise curious, curious.

I didn't date either out of any sense of curiosity or anything. To me it doesn't matter what genitals a person has but whether or not we were compatible in a relationship.

Exactly, I'm mean yea sex is important as physical act but it really does make more difference if we're compatible mentally and well everything else can be figured out.

tinfoil-hat maggie:codergirl42: ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: Well we could also identify as pansexual, since I've also dated both FtoM and MtoF trans people.

I've dated FTM and had sexual relations with females and males, but throwing a specific label on it seemed silly to me. I identify by my name and just let it be. The way I see it, if I'm seriously involved with someone and they want to have sex with me, that person isn't going to care about my "label" at that point.

Yeah, my husband and I refer to our relationship as a marriage, rather than a gay or straight marriage. No need to make a distinction since neither descriptors are really apt.

As long as y'all are both happy that's all that matter's. And yea I rarely term my relationships as LGB I do understand people want to classify for whatever reason./Pansexual is such a nice term but most people don't know it.

I'm pans, but I always tell people I'm bi. Saves the time it takes to explain.

ParagonComplex:There isn't any sin associated with a person saying God make a mistake and made them the wrong gender? All right, then. Maybe sin and sacrilege are different.

Not that I take a religious point of view, but I like to say that calling it a mistake is unfair. If there were an almighty god, could he not intend for some of his children to see both perspectives? It could all be part of that"mysterious way."

Granted it gets a little complicated, but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

Homosexuality is about sex with someone of the same gender

Transgenderism is about gender alone.

Not all transgendered people engage in sexual relations with members of their same biological sex

Is that really true? Is there someone who's like "I'm a woman trapped inside a man's body... but that woman is a lesbian who likes other women"? And in Robertson-land, does that count as hetero (considering that in TFA he says he's still not down with the concept without the operation)? Honest questions.

Yes, that's true. My best friend was born female, lives life and has had therapy to become a gay male.

SwissArmyGnome:Not that I take a religious point of view, but I like to say that calling it a mistake is unfair. If there were an almighty god, could he not intend for some of his children to see both perspectives? It could all be part of that"mysterious way."

It depends on how you want to view God. If he's hands-off, he knows that your conditions in the womb are going to cause you insane amounts of hassle later in life, and holds back on intervention to see how you're going to handle it. If he's hands-on, he personally intervened so that you would be able to experience the perspective of a person who is largely despised by his own followers, and will still have insane amounts of hassle later in life in any case.

You know Pat...I don't give a flying fark at rolling doughnut what you think, as if your an arbertrator of what's sin or not. That ego you have..that even to make what you "Think" is sin or not is amazingly self-serving.Especially when it's not your place to "Condemn somebody for doing that"...HELLO..you can't do that unless you think farken GOD---asshole.

I think the saying should be moved from "Don't judge people" to "Don't judge people for things other than their actions". If you never judge someone, you're going to live your life getting ripped off constantly by bad people. There comes a point where you simply must judge people by the things that they do.

Granted it gets a little complicated, but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

Homosexuality is about sex with someone of the same gender

Transgenderism is about gender alone.

Not all transgendered people engage in sexual relations with members of their same biological sex

Is that really true? Is there someone who's like "I'm a woman trapped inside a man's body... but that woman is a lesbian who likes other women"? And in Robertson-land, does that count as hetero (considering that in TFA he says he's still not down with the concept without the operation)? Honest questions.

Yes, that's true. My best friend was born female, lives life and has had therapy to become a gay male.

Yep, generally sexuality is who you want to have sex with, gender identity is who you wanna wanna be when you have sex with that person. That's way simplified to the point of being incorrect. But well these threads are usually at a 3rd grade level.

Super Chronic:Is that really true? Is there someone who's like "I'm a woman trapped inside a man's body... but that woman is a lesbian who likes other women"? And in Robertson-land, does that count as hetero (considering that in TFA he says he's still not down with the concept without the operation)? Honest questions.

Don't know about Robertson, but yes. Transgender are gay\lesbian depending on the gender they are mentally, not their birth gender. If a 'woman' becomes a man, and loves women, he is straight. If a 'man' becomes a woman, and loves women, she is lesbian. In Robertson-land, apparently you're only transgender if you're rich enough for surgery.

/Which pisses me off because surgery is farking expensive, so a lot of people basically say 'unless they can pony up cash I'm going to pretend they're the wrong gender'. FFS, people, STFU and be polite.

RealAmericanHero:As a transgender person who hasn't taken the steps yet, this makes me happy. There's still a long way to go, but this isn't something I would've anticipated at all.

I'm afraid this maybe more like the Iranian cure for homosexuals, and I have heard he was okay with people transitioning along while back. Now whether that includes FTM's as well as MTF's well who knows

Yeah, Christians, including Robertson, tell me I'm a sinner for masturbating, and I'm going to hell because of my lifestyle choices. I just never felt a need to hate all Christians for it or wish they were dead. I pretty much just ignore them, or at worst consider them a little loopy and frustrated. I'm just not into the whole endless cycle of hate everyone else around me seems to be.

hardinparamedic:tbeatty: "Farklibs apoplectic at concept of hate the sin, love the sinner. News at 11."

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You got me. I didn't really try. Still entertaining.

/Romans has a lot about homosexuality and homosexual acts as well as Peter living among sinners and being compassionate without becoming a sinner.//Still can't find anything about being transgender that would be a sin. Changing gender and living as that gender doesn't seem to be addressed. Heck, they all wore dresses. If someone wants to live as a woman and takes medical steps to become one, not sure how that would be a sin./// the entertaining part is that Farklibs see that as some sort of contradiction and untrustworthy. Kinda like a built in homophobic response that transgender people are necessarily homosexual and commit homosexual acts (hint: it's a completely different choice and a different color in the rainbow). Robertson is not necessarily hypocritical for accepting transgender people while rejecting homosexual acts. If that makes you apoplectic, please refer to the rainbow that you see as a monochromatic flag opposing Robertson.

What if, for example, I simultaneously insert my left fist into the rectal cavity of an MtoF heterosexual female, and an FtoM homosexual male? What we all did might be described entirely differently depending on the person you asked.

ambassador_ahab:tinfoil-hat maggie: If people are agreed on what they're willing to do what does it mater?

What if, for example, I simultaneously insert my left fist into the rectal cavity of an MtoF heterosexual female, and an FtoM homosexual male? What we all did might be described entirely differently depending on the person you asked.

Well true but you're hitting trolltastic territory here. Just saying./You are sounding like a 3rd grader.

tinfoil-hat maggie:Why do do you need to classify/label it? If people are agreed on what they're willing to do what does it mater?

Probably the same reason people feel the need to label and draw ever finer distinctions about LGBTQN. It's a way to describe something, or oneself, without having to go into graphic play by play detail about what specific lifestyle or sex acts you like with whom. From my point of view, if someone invited me over for "unspecified acts that I may have never heard of before", i would probably decline. Give me some hint ahead of time. Makes it easier to put an ad on a singles site. The idea that "labels are bad" is new age psuedo-enlightened silliness.

Lulz, not trying to troll. My actual point is that when I think of the people I love and care about, I think of who they are as people, and not necessarily some specific category they fall into. More like, "this is my friend Jenny, and here are the amazing things I enjoy about our friendship, etc etc."

That being said, I would be the first to admit that I have (at best) the emotional maturity of a 3rd grader, so no surprise if it sounds that way.

ambassador_ahab:revrendjim: but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

Well, I knew a person in college who was born a male, with a fully operating penis and everything. This person identified as a male until around my sophomore year of college. At that point, I lived abroad for 1/2 year. The next year when I returned, this person was now female (hormone therapy and everything,) and I barely recognized "her." Interestingly, she identified as a lesbian at the time I returned.

So she was apparently a lesbian woman trapped inside a man's body, and corrected it with a sex-change operation.

So if she had decided she was a "he," and not transgender, then the person would be heterosexual. But because the person was transgender, the person was homosexual from the perspective of their new identity.

Kind of how Chastity Bono was a gay woman, and now Chaz Bono is a straight man, correct?

Let's assume, arguendo, that "consenting" in this instance includes "figure out how to properly label/classify the activity at some point in the future, and get to business for now."

Why do do you need to classify/label it? If people are agreed on what they're willing to do what does it mater?

Don't need to. You could get off by taking a shiat on the carpet. Just don't do it on MY carpet, and I don't care. It's like the neighbor that lets their dog shiat on your lawn. You complain and they think it's okay to let the dog pee on your lawn after you complain and pick up the shiat. In reality, just keep your dog on your own lawn and no one cares.

codergirl42:ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: I'm transgender and I identify as bisexual, even though I married a man

So were you born with a Y chromosome?

I was born with a Y chromosome. I could identify as homosexual but then people say, "but you married a man", with a confused look on their face. I otherwise have a fairly vanilla heterosexual relationship with my husband. He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi. I'm actually comfortable with all three designations so it can sometimes change based on the situation.

So let me get this straight (tee hee)...you were born a biological male, transitioned to female, and married a male who likes other males? Yeah...calling yourself bisexual sounds a lot less complicated. 8^)

tbeatty:ambassador_ahab: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: but some women can really spray the field down with fertilizer when they masturbate.

No shiat. I witnessed the full power of this not long ago, when she managed to soak through the sheets, the mattress, the box-spring, and maybe even the carpet below the bed.

I mean, I've been with women who could...secrete some fluid, but I'd never encountered anything like this before. I was like, "holy shiat!"

They are called "men". Just so you know.

Some women are inherent gushers. Some women squirt like they're an oil pipeline that sprung a leak. If you spend a moment on giving a woman what they want, you'll be surprised on what is or is not "socially normal" behavior.

ambassador_ahab:codergirl42: He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi.

If I just saw you walking down the street, I'd probably assume you were female. After dating someone that was trans, I quit identifying as anything (why must we throw a label on it?)

I have a friend who dates both women and she-males, and I consider him straight, even though that technically makes him bisexual.

FuryOfFirestorm:ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi.

If I just saw you walking down the street, I'd probably assume you were female. After dating someone that was trans, I quit identifying as anything (why must we throw a label on it?)

I have a friend who dates both women and she-males, and I consider him straight, even though that technically makes him bisexual.

FuryOfFirestorm:codergirl42: ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: I'm transgender and I identify as bisexual, even though I married a man

So were you born with a Y chromosome?

I was born with a Y chromosome. I could identify as homosexual but then people say, "but you married a man", with a confused look on their face. I otherwise have a fairly vanilla heterosexual relationship with my husband. He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi. I'm actually comfortable with all three designations so it can sometimes change based on the situation.

So let me get this straight (tee hee)...you were born a biological male, transitioned to female, and married a male who likes other males? Yeah...calling yourself bisexual sounds a lot less complicated. 8^)

Well, my husband is attracted to men and women but he prefers to identify as gay, although I'd consider him straight.

codergirl42:FuryOfFirestorm: ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi.

If I just saw you walking down the street, I'd probably assume you were female. After dating someone that was trans, I quit identifying as anything (why must we throw a label on it?)

I have a friend who dates both women and she-males, and I consider him straight, even though that technically makes him bisexual.

Naah, you're just uncomfortable that your needle made a man soak the carpet. Your satisfaction that their super dry "vagina' made a sticky mess on the floor from their giant "clitoris" and the response that it was "your turn" in the prison cell followed by your blackout is something your therapist is working on.

/Therapist: "You're in denial."//You: No! I really wanted to make the only woman housed in the State Correctional Facility for Men come in buckets when she was assigned to my cell. And I did!!

FuryOfFirestorm:codergirl42: FuryOfFirestorm: ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi.

If I just saw you walking down the street, I'd probably assume you were female. After dating someone that was trans, I quit identifying as anything (why must we throw a label on it?)

I have a friend who dates both women and she-males, and I consider him straight, even though that technically makes him bisexual.

You know Pat...I don't give a flying fark at rolling doughnut what you think, as if your an arbertrator of what's sin or not. That ego you have..that even to make what you "Think" is sin or not is amazingly self-serving.Especially when it's not your place to "Condemn somebody for doing that"...HELLO..you can't do that unless you think farken GOD---asshole.

This is the most asshole comment I have ever seen. Hating someone for who you think they are rather than their comments. I don't like the dude much either, but in this case he said something halfway decent.

hardinparamedic:profplump: Now if only we were legally allowed to change our height.

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By "change our height" I mean things like "wear lifts/heels" or "slouch" or any of the other things you could do to change your "social height" -- your height as it appears to others. I realize actually changing the length of your femur is somewhat more involved, but so is gender reassignment surgery. My point is even though your height is fairly static over your adult life it isn't registered as an immutable fact in anyone's database, and we don't treat you poorly for choosing to make adjustments to it. There's no reason for us to treat gender any differently. You shouldn't have to "legally" change your gender because it shouldn't be a legal fact in the first place.

I have already been proclaimed Queen of the Leprechaun folks, as at 5 10, I am short- and I will have you know he is NOT one of our people. More of a Brownie or a Pixie. I seriously doubt he is, in any manner associated with any of the Sidhe. Not by blood.

I have already been proclaimed Queen of the Leprechaun folks, as at 5 10, I am short- and I will have you know he is NOT one of our people. More of a Brownie or a Pixie. I seriously doubt he is, in any manner associated with any of the Sidhe. Not by blood.

Um, wait you're 5'10" how you doin' : )

/I'm guessing west coast is a silly place.//Okay I went to LA once, did not like.

tbeatty:TheJoe03: tbeatty: Protip: if you're sticking you're needle in a dry hole and they squirt all over the floor while the hole is still dry and their Adams apple makes a low moaning growl, it ain't a vag.

I'm still not sure what female ejaculation has to do with men.

It's a subtle difference lost on you, apparently. Have you spent time outside of prison or with women?

FuryOfFirestorm:codergirl42: FuryOfFirestorm: ambassador_ahab: codergirl42: He identifies himself as gay, and I can relate to that, but it does get a little complicated. I am attracted to men and women so it's better easier if I just identify as Bi.

If I just saw you walking down the street, I'd probably assume you were female. After dating someone that was trans, I quit identifying as anything (why must we throw a label on it?)

I have a friend who dates both women and she-males, and I consider him straight, even though that technically makes him bisexual.

He dates trans-women not shemales.

Mea culpa. I'm not quite familiar with the proper terms.

Meh. The error is mostly one of connotation. She-male would imply his "dates" are hookers in the business of selling the "chicks with dicks" fantasy. That's a whole 'nuther thing...

Granted it gets a little complicated, but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

Homosexuality is about sex with someone of the same gender

Transgenderism is about gender alone.

Not all transgendered people engage in sexual relations with members of their same biological sex

I don't really care who farks who, but I was thinking logically: If in your life you have officially been both genders, then regardless of which one you prefer it is possible to connect the dots in a homo way.

You're right after a fashion: while being transsexual and being bisexual or gay may not be related logically or in reality, they are connected in some people's minds; therefore transsexual folk (not to mention transgender* folk in general) will be PERCEIVED as gay by many people, whether or not they REALLY are.

To give an example I've used before in previous Fark threads: both Matt Kailey and Chaz Bono are ftm transsexuals: they consider themselves to be male but were born with female bodies. Bono has, or had, a girlfriend, whereas Kailey considered himself to be a gay man.

If you accept them as men, then Kailey is a gay man and Bono is a straight male; but if you see them as "deluded women who have mutilated their bodies" (and I know they're in the thread already) then I suppose you must see Bono as being a "lesbian." But either way, I guess you'd have to agree that at least one of them is gay.

Honestly, there is so much overlap between transphobia and homophobia that I'm quite shocked to find out that someone as homophobic as Pat Robertson is NOT transphobic.

Granted it gets a little complicated, but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

Homosexuality is about sex with someone of the same gender

Transgenderism is about gender alone.

Not all transgendered people engage in sexual relations with members of their same biological sex

Is that really true? Is there someone who's like "I'm a woman trapped inside a man's body... but that woman is a lesbian who likes other women"? And in Robertson-land, does that count as hetero (considering that in TFA he says he's still not down with the concept without the operation)? Honest questions.

Yes. For all the people like to joke about it, "lesbian trapped in a man's body" is real. As is "gay man trapped in a woman's body." Matt Kailey is a gay transsman, for example. Bethany Black describes herself as a "lesbian, transsexual comedian."

tbeatty:TheJoe03: tbeatty: Protip: if you're sticking you're needle in a dry hole and they squirt all over the floor while the hole is still dry and their Adams apple makes a low moaning growl, it ain't a vag.

I'm still not sure what female ejaculation has to do with men.

It's a subtle difference lost on you, apparently. Have you spent time outside of prison or with women?

Congratulations. You are now farkied in red#1 as "Homophobic child". I truly hope the attention helps keep you from leaving sh*tstains on your sheets tonight.

TheJoe03:tbeatty: It's a subtle difference lost on you, apparently. Have you spent time outside of prison or with women?

Are you projecting or something?

Not at all. Who you stroke to soak the floor is your business. Nothing wrong with it. Your parents might still love you when you come out. Just thought you should know before the engagement and introductions. "We met in prison" isn't going to fool many people so you should be prepared when you try to explain it's a vag that makes your needle smell funny (and not the good funny).

tbeatty:Not at all. Who you stroke to soak the floor is your business. Nothing wrong with it. Your parents might still love you when you come out. Just thought you should know before the engagement and introductions. "We met in prison" isn't going to fool many people so you should be prepared when you try to explain it's a vag that makes your needle smell funny (and not the good funny).

Again, how did you turn a conversation about female ejaculation into one about male prison sex? Stop projecting so much.

Labels are helpful. They're shorthand. I see nothing wrong with calling myself a straight man, even if it doesn't quite match exactly. Sure, I could introduce myself as a heterophobic libertine with motivational issues*, but why the f*ck would I?

*I'm very uncomfortable being physically close to, or having an intimate conversation with, straight men. I can handle gay men just fine even if I don't want to f*ck them. I don't really understand that, to be honest. It's the same kind of creepy-crawly sensation I get when forced to go the the mall on Christmas Eve: I don't care what I have to do, I want out of the situation RIGHT THE HELL NOW before I flip the hell out. If I felt the same way around all men, I could just chalk it up to being a homophobe and own it, but since gay men don't make me any more uncomfortable than ugly girls I'm pretty sure that's not it.

I have already been proclaimed Queen of the Leprechaun folks, as at 5 10, I am short- and I will have you know he is NOT one of our people. More of a Brownie or a Pixie. I seriously doubt he is, in any manner associated with any of the Sidhe. Not by blood.

Um, wait you're 5'10" how you doin' : )

/I'm guessing west coast is a silly place.//Okay I went to LA once, did not like.

I've been to Alabama, but without a musical instrument at a joint, or on a joint.

I have already been proclaimed Queen of the Leprechaun folks, as at 5 10, I am short- and I will have you know he is NOT one of our people. More of a Brownie or a Pixie. I seriously doubt he is, in any manner associated with any of the Sidhe. Not by blood.

Um, wait you're 5'10" how you doin' : )

/I'm guessing west coast is a silly place.//Okay I went to LA once, did not like.

I've been to Alabama, but without a musical instrument at a joint, or on a joint.

Well you see in the south we have cities/towns that are nothing like the rest of the state. It's true, granted they always try to creep in. Before you know it you got cars up on blocks and guys rebuilding the engine and not to mention their are times when couches become front porch accessories :/

TopoGigo:Labels are helpful. They're shorthand. I see nothing wrong with calling myself a straight man, even if it doesn't quite match exactly. Sure, I could introduce myself as a heterophobic libertine with motivational issues*, but why the f*ck would I?

*I'm very uncomfortable being physically close to, or having an intimate conversation with, straight men. I can handle gay men just fine even if I don't want to f*ck them. I don't really understand that, to be honest. It's the same kind of creepy-crawly sensation I get when forced to go the the mall on Christmas Eve: I don't care what I have to do, I want out of the situation RIGHT THE HELL NOW before I flip the hell out. If I felt the same way around all men, I could just chalk it up to being a homophobe and own it, but since gay men don't make me any more uncomfortable than ugly girls I'm pretty sure that's not it.

Heh. I'm much the same way, except I'm not all that fond of gay guys either (although they're often marginally more tolerable). Never really understood where it came from. I had male friends into my early 20s, and then one day, being around other guys in anything more than the most casual or impersonal of settings just felt...awkward and abrasive. And it was literally just "one day," as if someone flipped a switch.

TheJoe03:tbeatty: Not at all. Who you stroke to soak the floor is your business. Nothing wrong with it. Your parents might still love you when you come out. Just thought you should know before the engagement and introductions. "We met in prison" isn't going to fool many people so you should be prepared when you try to explain it's a vag that makes your needle smell funny (and not the good funny).

Again, how did you turn a conversation about female ejaculation into one about male prison sex? Stop projecting so much.

/still not even sure how a male can squirt, you must jizz like crazy.

When a male engages in prostate play, sometimes it can cause ejaculation just from prostate stimulation. Sounds like he required full penetration, not just analingius.

I have already been proclaimed Queen of the Leprechaun folks, as at 5 10, I am short- and I will have you know he is NOT one of our people. More of a Brownie or a Pixie. I seriously doubt he is, in any manner associated with any of the Sidhe. Not by blood.

Um, wait you're 5'10" how you doin' : )

/I'm guessing west coast is a silly place.//Okay I went to LA once, did not like.

I've been to Alabama, but without a musical instrument at a joint, or on a joint.

Well you see in the south we have cities/towns that are nothing like the rest of the state. It's true, granted they always try to creep in. Before you know it you got cars up on blocks and guys rebuilding the engine and not to mention their are times when couches become front porch accessories :/

in other words- lots of porches everywhere. I keep thinking of Mobile as a giant oil/.gas platform ...I know- that wrong.

rdpeete1986:There are people who transition, but remain attracted to the opposite sex of their birth gender. Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation are completely separate concepts.

I AGREE whole heartedly that sexual orientation and gender identity are not related but it is a form of homosexuality.

I have several friends that transitioned (and are happy and wonderful people)

For example...

If you were born male, and transitioned to being female, and then love men - that is (complicated I know) "former male loving men". Even if we (and we should) fully respect that person's chosen identity (and I do) That does not erase their previous identity, it just changes it.

If you were born male, and transitioned to being female, and remain loving women - that is (again complicated) "female loving other females". Again if we fully respect that person's chosen identity, then that is homosexual in the more obvious sense.

so either way, it is a form of homosexuality ... just not as obviously as straight out homosexuality.

Both exist and neither of those sexuality choices were related (necessarily) to gender identity or caused by it. But both are (in a very different way) a "form" of homosexuality.

Now if only I could convince people that not all homosexuals have a difficulty with gender identity (most people who I talk to about sexuality assume that two gay guys - one is always the girl... frustrating)

// Bisexual for the record, and comfortable in my gender identity/ Really sad to see people who mess with other's people's choices, really proud to see people openly be and do what they want.

Lewdy:swaniefrmreddeer: Pat's been watching the pope and realizes people like you more when don't act like a giant douche. He ain't foolin' nobody.

I would say that the very act of accepting the job of boss of the world's largest child-rape cult qualifies as "acting like a giant douche".

Catholicism is not a cult... child rapists sure... assholes, sure, reprehensible scumbags sure ...... anyone with the charisma and desire to lead that organization is quid pro quo entirely unsuitable for the job (sorry for the paraphrasing Douglas Adams you god damned legend and one of my heroes)

Gotta say though, Francis is a LOT better than the last two (still not sure that that isnt just because he is better at pretending but so... JP was evil and Benedict was uber evil, this one is better at fooling or perhaps better.

Pat on the other hand I AGREE aint anywhere near as good as your proposed teacher of him, too many years of being an obviously evil douche to go back now Pat - or to quote someone I have recent respect for ....

tinfoil-hat maggie:Yep, generally sexuality is who you want to have sex with, gender identity is who you wanna be when you have sex with that person. That's way simplified to the point of being incorrect. But well these threads are usually at a 3rd grade level.

I'd abstract that (further), gender is independent of sexuality. Gender is simply who you want to be (or, better said, who you are) regardless of whether you want to have sex at all.

codergirl42:FuryOfFirestorm: codergirl42: TheJoe03: codergirl42: Well, my husband is attracted to men and women but he prefers to identify as gay, although I'd consider him straight.

Maybe it's like how American society considers half white and half black people "black".

/is there a "one drop" (no pun intended) rule for sexuality?

Yes, You Can Be A Golden Gay If Youve Never Had Straight sex.

"Gold Star Gays" are gay guys that never had sex with a woman

"Double Gold Star Gays" never had sex with a woman and were born via C-Section.

I'm a Triple Gold Star Gay because in addition to the former and the latter, my mom became a lesbian after I was born. I infected her with my gayness.

Do you feel special?

You mean, beside my usual gay powers which let me set up straight girls with the man of their dreams, make the perfect souffle, pick out the best wine to go with it, and redecorate the most slovenly hovel into a home worthy of the cover of Architectural Digest? No, not really.

But if I mention that I'm a Triple Gold Star Gay at the movie theater, I get a free small soda!

Granted it gets a little complicated, but how can you be transgender without being in some sense homosexual?

There are people who transition, but remain attracted to the opposite sex of their birth gender. Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation are completely separate concepts.

I'm personally of the opinion that there are times when we should eschew the terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" in favor of "gynephile" and "androphile." Not just when talking about transgender folks, but there are other times when they're really more useful than "heterosexual" and "homosexual."

For example, instead of saying "here's a picture of a handsome naked man for the ladies to enjoy ... well, the heterosexual ladies .... and the gay men, too, not to mention you crazy bisexuals," I could just say ""here's a picture of a handsome naked man for the androphiles to enjoy" and be done with it. When the central point is which sex you are attracted TO (rather than whether or not the sex you are attracted to happens to be your own), it really makes more sense to reflect that with a single word than constructions like "gay men, bisexuals, and heterosexual women."