Honestly, I'd still use him if he was pure poison, he still looks awesome standing there all pimp with his pillars. he'd still have the same weakness to psychic, though now he wouldn't get stab from fighting moves, but still have a beefy enough atk stat to use them pretty efficiently. And instead of being resistant to Bug, Dark, and Rock and weak to Flying, Psychic, they are now resistant to Bug, Fighting, Grass, and Poison and still weak to Psychic and just trading out flying for ground, overly not too huge a difference for someone with his stats, but now 2x damage from earthquake would be a bloody mess. I think in the end, stats make the bigger difference than typing, then move pool, then the type being the bottom on the important list.

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Last edited by vggamer on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Not really. If you exclude the ridiculously powerful legendaries, the top 50 BST Pokemon aren't that famous. The legendary trios for example usually suck. In fact, the trio of Unova is the only one whose members are fully used.And Kyurem-B isn't there only because of its typing, if it was like that then Kyurem-W would be OU too. But Kyurem-W has the strongest Ice Beam in the game, and the strongest Draco Meteor. While Kyurem-B only has Outrage.

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Let's just finish off the pointless argument by realizing that type alone doesn't dictate which pokemon are in which tier, as stats, abilities, movepools, and a few other factors all play parts in determining tier listings. Ice and Fire are not the best defensive types but we have some Pokemon of those types in high tiers, and there's also Steel and Fighting types in lower tiers. Besides I think Smogon's tiers are not too great. They're a fantastic starting point for allowing you to build teams and they have a lot of useful information but they also are kind of bad in a way because they treat certain Pokemon that can be decent as if they were as good as Beedrill. The tiers used to be balanced but now they put like half of all fully evolved Pokemon in RU and NU, including several that I think could be in higher tiers.

That's kind of not Smogon's fault that some people infer usability from their tier lists that rigidly, to the point that they feel anything that isn't OU must be horrible and unfavorable. Their tier determining process is nearly as objective as possible since they formulate the tiers based on actual usage, not theorymon and gut feelings. Several Pokemon that are in lower tiers are perfectly fine in OU, but nobody is using them there enough to make them OU.

To reference GP's sig, pokemon are, in a sense, their own being.Ahem.They each are better in their own way. Until proven guilty of horridness.They are... Untamable.Aint nobody gonna hold 'em down! Not the Man, not Smogon, not cranky internet trolls, not creepers... Nobody!

_________________"As I look up from the groundI see darkness all aroundAnd I'm lost but can be found up in the skyGoodbye"

and that's exactly why their tiers are flawed as a way of trying to say which Mon is better than others based on their ranking system.

I don't really see why. If people are using those certain Pokemon the most, presumably there's SOME reason why they're using them instead of something else. Like in Gen IV, Garchomp outclassed Flygon entirely, so Flygon wasn't used as much until Garchomp ended up being banned. I don't think most of the Pokemon that inhabit OU are there by accident. Generally they do fill their roles the best, even if it's only by a little, and that's why certain other Pokemon fall into relative disuse. See also Gastrodon vs. Quagsire in Gen 5. They basically fill the same role but Gastrodon's a little better, so people who play to win above all else will use him over Quagsire, taking away from Quagsire's usage and pushing him into a lower tier. Does that mean that Quagsire is Unown-level bad? No, it just means that it doesn't get used enough because there's a better option.

To relate this back to the types, it's why the upper tiers are littered with Pokemon of certain types that have natural advantages (i.e., Dragon) while Pokemon of other types are quite uncommon to see (i.e., Cloyster, Mamoswine and Black Kyurem being the only OU Ice-types). Like, yes, even the worst types can have good Pokemon, but my point throughout this entire thread is that some types are so bad that the few who survive have to be exceptionally good to overcome the natural shortcomings of their types. Cloyster having access to Shell Smash, Skill Link, Rock Blast and Icicle Spear is enough to let him hang around in OU, as is Black Kyurem having stats that eclipse Mewtwo's, but the average Ice-type who doesn't have all those amazing gifts? Not so much.

Frost arguing the practical imbalance of Steel's amazing defenses, and being countered with essential flavour text lore "Well steel doesn't have a soul!"

I find the Smogon tiers fascinating because I haven't competitively Pokemon battled in....... Good lord, probably more than a decade. But I still like to read up on the metagame from time to time and see how complicated it's all gotten.

Things like Persian and Tauros being Top Tier in Gen 1 was something I never knew, nor did I grasp the power of moves like "wrap" at the time.

I thought the "Balance" of stuff like Steel and Ice was that they were basically opposite offensively and defensively: You want the Steel type to be harder to kill, but it affords you no useful STAB. You want the Ice type for useful STAB (Still no Electric/Ice type for Boltbeam stab I see), but it gives you a terrible weaknesses.

I thought Poison was more useful/interesting in Gen 1 when it and Bug were weak to each other. Things seemed really lame when that was taken out (and Parasect lost one of it's many quadruple weaknesses)

Dragon I always thought was a bit overpowered, but was balanced out from a population sense by every pseudo Legendary dragon being x4 weak to Ice attacks (thereby giving the Defensive Ice type a small nod), and I believe this was true until the Haxorus line.

It's sort of funny as well that nobody argues about Electric being OP with it's one weakness, probably solely due to the ubiquitousness of the move "Earthquake"...

I don't like the Smoggan tier system and it annoys me when people reference it like it's the end all be all. Plus my brain is seriously fried after 9 months underway and a massive lack of sleep over those 9 months O_o so may ability to debate may be lacking at times.

To all, hope I'm not coming off as a complete jack hole (only 40-80% haha) Ya'll are fun to talk to.

@deadeyedave Sometimes flavor text is reason enough to make something in the game, haha.

Electric was a bit strong, but a lot of them had crappy movepools or stats, earthquake is crazy good and lots of Mons can learn it, same with Ice Beam to take on those nasty dragons.

What was nasty in GEN 1 especially was Normal, decent to high defense or attack, only weakness was fighting which didn't even have decent moves then, and immune to ghost, though there weren't enough ghost moves to really call that much of a perk. But even still today, Normal is a pretty good type, much more fighting moves that are nasty, but also a lot more ghost moves that are nasty but immune.

_________________When Solid Snake sees an "!" over someones head he runs away. When the Pokemon Trainer sees an "!", he beats them up and steals their money.

Electric is doing fine with 2 advantages and 1 disadvantage. Electric is also resisted by Grass, Electric, and Dragon. Generation IV brought in Magnet Rise to temporarily give certain Electric pokemon no weaknesses and went a step further in the next generation with Tynamo's evolutionary line. This type has everything from great strong points, brutal weak points, very strong Pokemon, very weak Pokemon.

Electric isn't as overpowered because it's resisted by a good number of Pokemon and its weakness is a widely used type. On the other hand, Dragon only has one advantage and two weaknesses, but its 4 resistances and the fact that only Steel resists it make it too strong, since with a Dragon and a Fire/Fighting/Ground move you can pretty much hit anything in the game for at least neutral damage. On the other end, we've got Steel. Average offensively, but with 11 resistances and 1 immunity. Just looking at numbers makes it obvious why Scizor has the no.1 OU usage rate half the time.

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The chill of death, the heart of a metalhead. A lonerebel.I'm a competitive battler, ask me if you have any questions on competitive battling or want advice on Ubers teambuilding.Credit to DragoBoy for the banner!The only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be killed!

None of this has to do with the whole adding types to the game. Maybe start a new thread in the Pokemon Center?

Anyway, I think the whole 17 types has a good thing going. Even though it has major stuff ups. Adding types that would help this will probably never happen. If types are going to be made make them realistic. Not sound and light. I have no suggestions but come one. I'm sure the hundreds if people who make pokemon (IDGAC if its thousands) will think of a type. But what they should work on is more powerful moves for each type. Or a better set up for resistances. Make it more even.

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I thought the "Balance" of stuff like Steel and Ice was that they were basically opposite offensively and defensively: You want the Steel type to be harder to kill, but it affords you no useful STAB. You want the Ice type for useful STAB (Still no Electric/Ice type for Boltbeam stab I see), but it gives you a terrible weaknesses.

Hi Dave! One problem with Steel that hasn't come up in this thread is that it's actually one of the most common offensive types in the metagame since... Platinum? Because I think that's when they gave Scizor Bullet Punch, and it also already had Technician, so that makes it have a very powerful STAB priority move. It was worse when Platinum just came out and Scizor was the #1 most used Pokemon in the Gen IV metagame though. And while Ice STAB is nice, using Ice Pokemon seems pretty redundant/undesirable when you can slap Ice Beam on any Water Pokemon ever and have the same type coverage without four weaknesses.

Also, in Gen V they changed all of the appliance forms of Rotom to be Electric/whatever their specialty is, too, so Frost Rotom is Ice/Electric (and also the least used Rotom form except for the Electric/Flying Rotom who still has Levitate as its ability; yeah, even the original Ghost/Electric Rotom is used more).

Quote:

It's sort of funny as well that nobody argues about Electric being OP with it's one weakness, probably solely due to the ubiquitousness of the move "Earthquake"...

I think nobody really calls out Electric because, despite only having one weakness, it's conversely only good against two types itself. Granted, they're two of the better types in the game, but so is Electric's weakness. It's probably as close to neutral as a type can be without being Normal.

@Frost, as of Generation V I NEVER see Rotom in its original form used. EVER. That could change in an instant considering I battle online every few weeks or so. However the Grass/Water/Fire forms are definitely more preferable than Flying or Ice (I feel so bad for the Flying form with its useless ability lol)As for Steel being a more common offensive type near the end of the previous decade, aside from Bullet Punch that isn't quite true, at least from my experience. Meteor Mash is occassionally used by Metagross because it's a strong attack that can sometimes raise Attack, but nothing too special.

According to the current tiers, Wash Rotom's OU, Heat's UU, Mow and vanilla are RU, and Frost and Fan are NU.

Also, I just checked Smogon's usage stats for the month of January, and Scizor is THE single most used Pokemon in the Gen V metagame. And Bullet Punch is a staple on pretty much any Scizor you see... so yeah, Steel has definitely become a more relevant offensive type since Bullet Punch Scizor came into the picture. (Lucario uses it sometimes too, and Ferrothorn is like #3 in usage and tends to run Gyro Ball. You also mentioned Metagross, and Jirachi is a freaking nuisance because of Iron Head, but that's because of the flinch rate more than the typing.)

As I said before, Steel dominates the metagame. Dragon and Water follow. There is no real point to continue this, it's obvious that some types are imbalanced, and adding new would screw things even more, just like it happened in Gen II. Let's just hope the type chart will be remade somehow, and stop this.

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The chill of death, the heart of a metalhead. A lonerebel.I'm a competitive battler, ask me if you have any questions on competitive battling or want advice on Ubers teambuilding.Credit to DragoBoy for the banner!The only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be killed!

Ok so everyone knows my opinion on the "imbalance" of certain types (that it's nothing to stress about) so instead of repeating it, I want to know what changes to the type matchup chart people would like? To me the typechart makes sense as it is and regardless of what type of Pokemon I use, I find away to adapt. But instead of saying "the typechart needs to change", I'd like to know exactly how it should change according to you guys.

I would have Poison become strong against Water and Fighting. I don't really think it's necessary for it to be strong against Normal, and Bug doesn't need the extra weakness. Also, the poison status would lower Special Attack in the same way that burn lowers Attack, and the availability of Toxic would be much more limited than how everything can randomly learn it now. Right away, Poison goes from completely useless to much more viable.

Steel needs to be rebalanced so it's better offensively and worse defensively. Offensively, I would make it strong against Dragon, and that would probably be good enough. Picture stories like Sleeping Beauty where Phillip combats Maleficent with a steel sword; it pierces through the thick scales of a dragon. Conversely, Steel can keep its resistance to Dragon, but it should lose its resistances Psychic, Dark and Ghost, especially Psychic because if anything Steel should be WEAK to Psychic. Also, it can retain its immunity to most Poison moves, but any Poison-type moves that utilize corrosive acids, i.e. Acid or Acid Spray, should not only bypass the immunity but also hit Steel for super effective damage.

Trying to fix Ice defensively is kind of a tall order because they're trying to portray Ice as fragile, when you can really spin things in a lot of different ways. Fire makes sense because that's a no brainer. Rock and Fighting I'm less sure of, especially the former. And Steel... eh. Ice is weak to Steel because shovels move snow, but I don't think the Titanic was super effective against that iceberg. I think I'd drop the Rock weakness and maybe give it some other resistance. It could be Dragon because Dragons generally perform worse in the cold.

Offensively, I'd leave Dragon as it is, but I'd probably strip away some of its resistances, especially Grass. I can understand Water and Fire because eastern and western Dragons, respectively, have affinities to those elements. The Electric resistance can stay, too, I guess. It's really Grass that needs the help because far too many types resist it.

I'd like to see Poison hitting water for super effective damage. Also, I'd like Steel to get a bit nerfed. Probably give it weakness to Electric and remove the Ghost resistance (who said machines aren't affected by ghosts? What is Rotom?). Remove Ice's weakness to Rock, and perhaps add a resistance in Grass.

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The chill of death, the heart of a metalhead. A lonerebel.I'm a competitive battler, ask me if you have any questions on competitive battling or want advice on Ubers teambuilding.Credit to DragoBoy for the banner!The only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be killed!

Hi Dave! One problem with Steel that hasn't come up in this thread is that it's actually one of the most common offensive types in the metagame since... Platinum? Because I think that's when they gave Scizor Bullet Punch, and it also already had Technician, so that makes it have a very powerful STAB priority move. It was worse when Platinum just came out and Scizor was the #1 most used Pokemon in the Gen IV metagame though.

Hello!

Ah fair enough, I'll bow to your expertise as I'm purely an armchair warrior these days.I find all the usage stats super interesting, although I haven't looked at the raw data, just the flavour text on the movesets on Smogon, but I thought Heatran was #1 in Gen IV.

I sort of doubt if a a rejig to the type chart is even something Gamefreak would consider.I dunno how "Balanced" we can really call Pokemon. Some of the stuff they introduce generation on generation is quite clever, but some of it seems ridiculously overpowered or terribly bad (I remember first seeing Mud/Water Sport in Gen IV and thinking "That will never be anything but a wasted moveslot").

Also blanket banning of Legendary Pokemon (including Phione) in official tournaments strikes me as odd when outside of the Uber statted ones, the Legendaries aren't usually that good.

I do like what Smogon has done with tiering the Pokemon though, and trying to make as many of them viable in their own little ecologies as possible.

New to this website but definitely not new to Pokemon, and although I agree at the unbalance in the typing chart as far as certain things go I think as much logic as you try to give them it will always be opinionated and therefore controversial. I mean Steel is definitely stacked when compared to other types due to having so many resistances, but look at it's composition is should definitely be more sturdy than most other types. Then as far as dragons go, they're supposed to be the apex of any chart this is fiction after all.

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't mind the new types. I remember how excited I was when I got Silver and saw I didn't have to frustrate myself with Red anymore. On with more complexity I say. I mean after all to break down the process and mechanics that we've grown accustomed to since gen 1/2 will be aggravating regardless of how simple. Where as some new typing in the mix while keeping certain types in their place as dominant in offense, deffence ext and making a new niche in the ecosystem for them will be interesting and will be adored much longer than it will be hated.

I think It makes sense that they add a new type. I mean, It at least makes sense in the fact that Yveltal and Xerneas have not had their types named yet, and neither has sylveon. I mean, when BW came out, Game Freak let us know what the dragon's typings were. I personally want a new type, and light type would be cool...

I don't think I could handle any more types. I like to build my teams so that I have a Pokémon that is super effective against every type, and if more were added, that would just be a pain. I actually thought that Light was already a type (haven't been into Pokémon since just before the second generation started), but I guess I was mistaken.

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