A Delta employee on flyertalk.com copied part of an internal Delta memo that said Delta will be making a number of future in-flight enhancements in addition to the recently announced leather seats, upgraded lighting and nicer lavatories. Mentioned in the memo (no timetable given):

1. An increase in economy seat pitch to 33 inches where possible and no less than 32 inches (currently 40% of Delta's economy seats are 30-31 inches)
2. New, more comfortable cushions for first class seats
3. Refreshed menu options
4. New in-flight entertainment
5. Enhanced international flights with upgraded seats, more personalized dining and upgraded in-flight entertainment for both BusinessElite and economy

"I have a great idea...we're not making money with more seats on our planes, so we're going to take seats OUT of our planes, leaving us with less passengers on our planes, and thus reducing revenue, and increasing losses!"-Gerald Grinstein, obviously having a bout of idiocy...

I'm no fan of Delta, but the seat pitch increase simply isn't going to help the balance sheet, if you ask me...not until they get their customer service in order, at the very least...

Gimme more, for less. Quality will suffer at some point when prices go down. If not the company goes out of business.
Poeple who fly American love the extra space, but are unwilling to pay a small premium for it.
Most people want cheap tickets.

Nowhere does it say seats will be removed ala AA. If only 1-3" are being added, perhaps there are new seats that are slightly slimmer, or some other cabin reconfiguration such as the movement of a bulkhead, that allows for the extra room.

This is a debate I always find very funny. Passengers always acclaim airlines that increase seat pitch... but then ditch the exact same airlines for increasing prices. It's a simple equation: less seats = higher prices.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving Y class more room, but it simply will not work until ALL airlines are together on this, or that some kind of ruling is imposed on the grouds of human rights to force airlines to a specified pitch.

Let's face it, most travellers in Y are looking for the cheapest ticket available, legroom comes further down the list...

"I have a great idea...we're not making money with more seats on our planes, so we're going to take seats OUT of our planes, leaving us with less passengers on our planes, and thus reducing revenue, and increasing losses!"-Gerald Grinstein, obviously having a bout of idiocy...

SHUPirate1,

In fact, Grinstein is headed in the right direction. It won't be easy for Delta to bring back it's revenues and people, but he's trying. Let me explain....

Recently, Cornell University did a research paper on why discounting doesn't work for hotels and it sorta holds true for airlines too. If you discount too much, your passengers get used to the cheap tickets. It does increase RASM or keeps it from falling, no doubt, but only due to an increase in load factor. Now you've cut services to make up for the lower ticket prices. When demand comes back, and you raise your prices, people are still not ready to pay the higher prices, because they were just used to the lower prices. So, you cut more services to meet the pax demands and so people expect even lower prices...we call it the death spiral.

The other side of the equation is that when demand comes back airlines can provide better services if people are ready to pay more. But people won't pay more until you add these premium services. So, who wants to go first....?

Well, Delta is going first! By showing their passengers that they are committed to service, and the comfort of the travelling public, they can slowly start to build their ticket prices. It'll take time for people to see it that way, but once they see it, they'll come back, and you can add more services. See how that works in reverse?

While I want to refrain from making the same remarks about you that you made about Grinstein, it is quite evident that either it was an ignorant remark, or what you said about him simply holds true for you.

cheers

I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.

Increasing seat pitch by a couple of inches does not mean you are tearing row after row of seats out. Maybe one or two rows, at most. The 738 Shuttles will be the first and easiest, given that the rows in the back were taken out to have one less flight attendant. See, you may be decreasing revenue by taking out a row or not, but you are also seeing savings in cost for less labor. And as we can see, many people want more legroom, people were thrilled when AA came out with MRTC. Now they are rethinking that and have started to default back to less legroom, which is why Delta is only adding a couple inches legroom.

I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.

I'd have to see the details, but this is similar to same direction BA took in the early 80's. Do a total makeover and enhance the service expereince. The facts speak for themselves. BA transformed itself from a debt-ridden state airline with a reputation for lousy service (customers joked BA stood for "Bloody Awful") to one of the best airlines in the world. DL has definately started thinking with their head on this one.

Now if only they would stop charging for food in domestic Economy...

Let's face it, most travellers in Y are looking for the cheapest ticket available, legroom comes further down the list...

Not for this traveller. I'm willing to pay a few bucks more for a few more inches of legroom, and do. If AS is $10 more than UA on the same route, say, to ORD it's a no brainer. Plus I get a free meal (and a good one at that). AS IFE is pricy, but I can live without it.

Being shoehorned into a 757 and being forced to pay for food that used to be free is not my idea of a pleasant service experience.

Call me old fashioned or out of touch, but the major (or so-called legacy) airlines need to face up to the fact their customers expect them to be in the serivce business as well being in the transportation business. And no amount of grousing by airline employees is going to change that.

Would this proposal of DL be limited to international flights only, only those a/c used in longhaul (transcon/overseas)? Or, will this be applied to all a/c that they plan to keep and need refurbishing over the next 2 years?

I think it would have been best for them to copy UA with Economy Plus. Give the higher paying and more loyal elite passengers extra space, but the people that pay the dirt cheap prices can deal with the standard pitch. It increased loyalty because a lot of premiers stick with UA because of Economy Plus as they feel it is a reward for their business (rather than just a normal thing as on AA with MRTC). I think DL is trying to copy AAs model too much. I know that UAs style of bankruptcy is no better but still I remember a while ago that they were saying that they saw AA as a long term viable carrier, even though CO and NW are doing far better. Hopefully they will intensly market the increased seat pitch, better IFE, food and seat comfort so they can charge a premium for it.

At least they are trying. Sitting around and doing nothing with their product will not help them at all. If they change their stuff around, they will give themselves an opportunity to benefit. Of course 30 inch pitch like Airtran could be a good change to. We will have to wait and see if the changes they make are the right ones. I don't want to be an armchair CEO and condemn them because at least they are trying.

If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!

This is not a bad idea if it is part of the overhaul of the Delta product. If they are pursuing the passenger who will spend the extra bucks for the space and amenitites, then there is an argument for these actions. The problem is this: where is the cash coming from to pay for it?

"I have a great idea...we're not making money with more seats on our planes, so we're going to take seats OUT of our planes, leaving us with less passengers on our planes, and thus reducing revenue, and increasing losses!"-Gerald Grinstein, obviously having a bout of idiocy...

I'm no fan of Delta, but the seat pitch increase simply isn't going to help the balance sheet, if you ask me...not until they get their customer service in order, at the very least...

Actually, removing seats that are already empty has no affect on the bottom line. The best size aircraft across the board for todays markets is actually 96 seats with a few exceptions in high density routes.

This is what I've been thinking/hoping they might consider ever since they started Song. Like maybe they've basically been using Song as a testbed for enhancements/improvements before rolling them out across the whole fleet.

I don't think UA's Economy+ product has done them as much as good as AA's MRTC. Getting E+ on UA is almost entirely random, you can get an E+ seat even if you paid the lowest possible fare, if that's all that's left when you check in, also if you just turn up at the gate, even if you paid full fare and have super Platinum status, if the flights full and everyone's checked in, you get the crappy seat down the back.

I'm very pleased DL have recognised the shortcomings in their product, especially internationally. They are after all competing with other airlines that provide better food, better cabin comfort and better IFE to all their passengers. If they want to be competitive, they have to keep up.

Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers

"Would this proposal of DL be limited to international flights only, only those a/c used in longhaul (transcon/overseas)? Or, will this be applied to all a/c that they plan to keep and need refurbishing over the next 2 years?"

Here is a question-Assume it were logistically possible and not too confusing-

Suppose Delta divded the cabin from front to back with pitches ranging from 35-31. Customers would pay the lowest fare for the seats in the back with the smallest leg room- and regardless of fare type would pay a $10 premium for each extra one inch.

If this were done do you think people would pay extra for extra pitch? Which sections would sell out first?

This would be the true way to tell if people were willing to pay more for more money.

"I don't think UA's Economy+ product has done them as much as good as AA's MRTC."

Based on what I know Economy+ has performed better than AA's MRTC. MRTC has already been eliminated on some fleets, and AA is evaluating taking it away completely because it is not making money. I thought I read they gained $50 million in revenue on the planes where they put more seats back in. Economy+, on the other hand, has served its purpose and was/is being expanded to all aircraft including international.

Product differentiation dictates that there needs to be a perceived difference which will benefit the passengers in some way shape or form. The difference in 1" seat pitch is...er...1". In short, not much. Not only that, it'll be a pricing nightmare to price these various class types, with one inch incremental seat pitches. It would cost money to do the refit in the first place and you can only imagine the chaos when a modified aircraft has an equipment change and is replaced with a non-modified one.

So, all in all, airlines decided that yes, they would offer something "in-between" business and economy and hence the premium economy and economy plus concepts were born. There is huge product differentiation between the three products and perceived as such. However, it is a niche market and hence you will not find loads of premium economy seats...

cheers

I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.

"I have a great idea...we're not making money with more seats on our planes, so we're going to take seats OUT of our planes, leaving us with less passengers on our planes, and thus reducing revenue, and increasing losses!"-Gerald Grinstein, obviously having a bout of idiocy...

I'm no fan of Delta, but the seat pitch increase simply isn't going to help the balance sheet, if you ask me...not until they get their customer service in order, at the very least...

You obviously dont get it. Delta will be increasing customer service and in-flight service. Additional revenue will be generated because people will like the better service and be willing to pay a few bucks more to get it rather than settling for peanuts on AirTran in a 30" pitch seat.

For example, if I can get much better service for $5 more per one way ticket, great. $5 over 150 seats is $750; over 1000 flights that's a lot of revenue per day. $750,000 PERDAY for 180 days = $135,000,000 in the coffers. Thats enough to pay cash for a 7e7 PLUS a 717.

I know for a fact that there are people who will put their money where mouth is, when they demand more seat pitch and a better-than-economy-but-not-business product. Your comments just validates my theory. Thanks.

cheers

I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.

I think the argument that Delta's going to try to make, whether you agree with it or not, is similar to Starbuck's concept. Starbuck's charges a bit more for their coffee. But it is sold as upmarket and of a standard supposedly high quality. If Delta can convince passengers that their product is worth a little extra money, they can then differentiate themselves in a market which is currently a commodity. For your information, Airtran is not always the cheapest way to fly from Atlanta. Just anecdotally, I put in travel from ATL to LAX, DEN, and LGA in orbitz for a departure on Oct. 28th. In every case, Delta's price and Airtran's price were exactly the same. Delta just needs to convince the public (1) of that reality and then (2) create a better product than Airtran's. Some would argue they already have that, at least as far as the airport experience.

Perception IS reality. All Delta needs to do is change their perception in people's minds. There's nothing fundamentally wrong nor different with the Delta product, they're just trying to rebrand their image as a premuim carrier, like the one Continental/Air France have always maintained. No surprise that Delta hired Ogilvy & Mather to launch their re-branding campaign.

cheers

I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.

I could see Delta doing it because the difference would be there for everyone to see and measure. Starbucks marketing their coffee as a "premium" product would be like Super 8 marketing their product as a Premium upscale hotel.

You could not have been more wrong about that. Starbucks is a premium coffee brand, or at least that's how they are PERCEIVED. That's what counts, what people think it is, not what they really are. Just like, for a can of Coca Cola, it's not about what's inside the can, it never was, it is everything that revolves around the can - the brand, the marketing, the image, the color that makes a can of Coke, Coke.

cheers

I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.

It is not just perceived. Most people think Starbucks has a better cup of coffee. Coke is a better tasting soft drink. Delta will be a better airline and hopefully people will pay more for it. I do for Starbucks, Coke, and I will for Delta.

I, for one, would pay a premium (or, even generally higher fares) for more legroom. I remember flying on FL a while back in ecomony. I wasn't reclining my seat at all, and a lady kept hitting my seatback the whole trip with her knees or something. Very uncomfortable.

Here's an idea: increase seat pitch on your international fleet and leave domestic the same. Flying overseas in a 31" pitch seat in my opinion is positively inhumane. Yields are higher on international routes anyway and in-flight amenities are a bigger factor in pax choice of carrier, so I think this could be a good move. Apart from a couple of routes, such as LAX-JFK and Shuttle routes, domestic air travel is low yield and I think increasing legroom is only going to lead to more losses for the airlines.

"I don't think UA's Economy+ product has done them as much as good as AA's MRTC"

UA E+ works great as far as I can tell. As a 1P getting E+ is not at all random. The only times I have not scored one was a couple of standby situations on full flight where I cleared at the very last minute. Ofcourse some non Premiers make it and that's fine. At 35-36" pitch and 18" width - the UA E+ on Airbus aircraft is the best economy product in the US by a wide margin.

NWA--never played the seat pitch game. More money in the bank than anyone. Highest summer load factor of any "legacy airline." I do wonder however, if NWA ever did the "second airline" thing. What would it be called? NO? for no seat assignment, no food, no kidding? Just kidding.

NWA's answer to added pitch is to reward their most loyal customers with liberal upgrade opportunities. When those aren't available they get seats with empty ones next to them (if that's even possible on an NWA flight) or bulkhead seats. NWA is adapting to the market place in the right way. No cannibalizing of its self. It's really not that hard. Find what you do best and keep building upon those principles.

It's very simple economics... With less seats, each individual seat actually costs more for the airline. With that said, without raising fares, revenue and yield will decrease. In these days of sensative pricing, an airline cannot raise their fares by even a few dollars to cover these expenses. A few people on this board ma be willing to pay the extra price. But flying has become a product that can be shopped for. People shop for everything else and look fo the better deal. People vote with their pocket books in this game.

This is a huge gamble IMO for DL. I hope they've found a way to make it work, unlike the others before them. This of course... IF THIS IS EVEN TRUE!

Have you ever flown FC on a NWA DC9? The other night comming home to CLT on an NWA DC9. The flight was booked at 16F and 70Y. Aircraft capacity was 16F 109Y. The stand by list for FC was 34 people, all revenue I might add. Seems to me, the frequent fliers of NWA seem to like it.