IanAnd wrote:Yes, I think doubt is definitely one of the factors a sotapanna has to overcome along with the acknowledgment about the delusion of selfhood. Having these two in place helps to bring about a rational ending to clinging to rituals (the adherence to rules and observances) as this was, after all, Gotama's response to the emptiness of Brahminism's ritualistic practice of his day as it would have, in his opinion, little effect on the empirical practice that he was endeavoring to teach and make known. When a person understands all these factors and has made a personal inner commitment to the practice, not just because it "sounds nice," but because it makes sense and has made an indelible impression on his mind, then I think we give him (or her) a break and let him acknowledge to himself, at least, this achievement. No need to make a big deal about this by announcing it all over the place. The people who know this person will see it reflected in the way he lives his life

How about having glimpsed nibbana and living a life of pure sila?What you seem to be advocating above looks to me like the definition of the cula-sotapanna.kind regards

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Despite all the varieties of definitions of sotapanna floating around in this and other threads, it seems possible that the Buddha (as opposed to the institutions that grew up around his teachings after his parinibbana and which began to categorize and doctrine-ize them) may have had a more simplified view of what reaching stream entry was about. I don't have any particular sutta passages in mind, just an overall abiding impression from the discourses that he wasn't as much of a stickler about this as some in the present day would have it.

Here is a sutta passage:

"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death."

Despite all the varieties of definitions of sotapanna floating around in this and other threads, it seems possible that the Buddha (as opposed to the institutions that grew up around his teachings after his parinibbana and which began to categorize and doctrine-ize them) may have had a more simplified view of what reaching stream entry was about. I don't have any particular sutta passages in mind, just an overall abiding impression from the discourses that he wasn't as much of a stickler about this as some in the present day would have it.

Here is a sutta passage:

"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death."

It really does seem that stream entry is possible for every reasonably moral person who listens to the Dhamma and acquires right view. Right view is never portrayed as a "FLASH" moment but as what it says, a Right VIEW or WAY or UNDERSTANDING of the way the world is.That is with craving as condition etc. This view will gradually govern a persons actions in a more & more complete way. The "FLASHES" would probably come later.

Actually there may be a flash when entering a stream of Dhamma. But this is not some mystic experience, but, indeed, perhaps this is just right understaning, like: "aaah, that is how it is!". This may happen listening to someone's sermon, or reading a book or an article. It is said that 2 conditions are necessary: - words of another, - appropriate attention (by the way, for wrong view to arise, also 2 needed - words of another and not-appropriate attention (ayoniso manasikara)).

Yesterday I also found interestin sutta that proves that no jhana needed to gain stream-entry:

Saradasutta - Autumn

Bhikkhus, in Autumn when there is a clear sky, without a single cloud and the sun rising high up in the sky destroys all the darkness and burns and scorches every thing. In the same manner to the noble disciple there arises the eye of the Teaching and together with that arising, three bonds get dispelled, the view of a self, doubts and taking virtues as the ultimate end of the holy life. After that the leading is by covetousness and hatred. He secluding the mind from sensual and demeritorious thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. If the noble disciple dies at that time he has no bonds on account of which he is to be born in this world .(pali original - http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipita ... /2.5/2.5.3)

That means, at first you enter the stream, and then only 2 major defilements remain - greed and aversion. Then, if you enter 1 jhana (as this sutta says), you will gain path to non-returning. So if you die, possessing this 1st jhana, you will be anagami.

Zom wrote:Actually there may be a flash when entering a stream of Dhamma. But this is not some mystic experience, but, indeed, perhaps this is just right understaning, like: "aaah, that is how it is!". This may happen listening to someone's sermon, or reading a book or an article. It is said that 2 conditions are necessary: - words of another, - appropriate attention (by the way, for wrong view to arise, also 2 needed - words of another and not-appropriate attention (ayoniso manasikara)).

Yesterday I also found interestin sutta that proves that no jhana needed to gain stream-entry:

Saradasutta - Autumn

Bhikkhus, in Autumn when there is a clear sky, without a single cloud and the sun rising high up in the sky destroys all the darkness and burns and scorches every thing. In the same manner to the noble disciple there arises the eye of the Teaching and together with that arising, three bonds get dispelled, the view of a self, doubts and taking virtues as the ultimate end of the holy life. After that the leading is by covetousness and hatred. He secluding the mind from sensual and demeritorious thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. If the noble disciple dies at that time he has no bonds on account of which he is to be born in this world .(pali original - http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipita ... /2.5/2.5.3)

That means, at first you enter the stream, and then only 2 major defilements remain - greed and aversion. Then, if you enter 1 jhana (as this sutta says), you will gain path to non-returning. So if you die, possessing this 1st jhana, you will be anagami.

quite interesting post... Zom

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

IanAnd wrote:Yes, I think doubt is definitely one of the factors a sotapanna has to overcome along with the acknowledgment about the delusion of selfhood. Having these two in place helps to bring about a rational ending to clinging to rituals (the adherence to rules and observances) as this was, after all, Gotama's response to the emptiness of Brahminism's ritualistic practice of his day as it would have, in his opinion, little effect on the empirical practice that he was endeavoring to teach and make known. When a person understands all these factors and has made a personal inner commitment to the practice, not just because it "sounds nice," but because it makes sense and has made an indelible impression on his mind, then I think we give him (or her) a break and let him acknowledge to himself, at least, this achievement. No need to make a big deal about this by announcing it all over the place. The people who know this person will see it reflected in the way he lives his life

How about having glimpsed nibbana and living a life of pure sila?

Was there any mention of negating this in what I wrote? If so, please show me where it was. (I'm nothing if not for expanding the definition a bit, within reason, of course.)

Ben wrote:What you seem to be advocating above looks to me like the definition of the cula-sotapanna.

You mis-comprehend, then. What idea is it that you accept as defining a cula-sotapanna? (Personally, I find the intitutionalized labels more trouble dealing with than they are worth.)

Institutional labels are in many cases these days (as in the past) used to first politically divide and then to categorize/differentiate people from one another who are otherwise of good faith. Not everyone uses them this way, but if you look at how they've been used down through history, we have the Catholic Inquisition, the Salem Witch trials, and the Mahayana/Hinayana controversy to name but a few. In more recent history, there are the state-run (meaning those that are officially backed, controlled, and condoned by the political regimes in those countries) religions of "Buddhism" in Thailand and Burma/Myanmar.

In terms of how this might affect those undertaking the practice and study of the Dhamma, such labels, when misused and/or misunderstood, can create sankharas in the mind by bating people into games of spiritual "oneupmanship" or what-have-you via namarupa (name-and-form), especially in those who are not yet knowledgeable enough about the Dhamma and able to halt these processes before giving way to them and to figure out the original definition and intent of such labels.

Last edited by IanAnd on Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Still not clear. So, feeling like a dentist here, in the context of this forum, are we talking about what? A label such as streamwinner? As maybe outlined in the suttas? If such a label is a problem, why?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

The salient feature that is characteristic of enlightenment that’s independent of the tradition, whether it’s Christian, Buddhist, Moslem, Hindu, Sikh, Native, Atheist, etc.—the common denominator is that “shift in perception of I-amness”. However, depending on a person’s background, and also how a person interprets the experience, the language that’s used to describe what is realized may be very different.

One bhavana center leader cited a canonical story that during the Buddha’s time there were seven crores (seventy million) of stream-enterers in Savatthi and five crores of them were laymen.From: The Buddhist Revival in Sri Lanka by George D. Bond

One bhavana center leader cited a canonical story that during the Buddha’s time there were seven crores (seventy million) of stream-enterers in Savatthi and five crores of them were laymen.From: The Buddhist Revival in Sri Lanka by George D. Bond

Those kind of numbers are indicative of later commentaries (and the Mahayana).

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

My experience suggests that close to 10% of the population have experienced stream entry where that is defined as a Transpersonal experience. (Can we avoid getting bogged down in detailed proscriptions and definitions?)

Perhaps 2% of those have any idea of what it's about. The rest try and forget it, as it just complicates an already difficult life.

1% or less, try to build on the experience.

Knowing this makes minimal difference to one's progress along the Way.

On the other hand, isn't it wonderful, just BEING a Stream enterer, or maybe an Arahant.

The only problem I have found, is that the moisture from the stream tends to dissolve the adhesive of those Gold or red or blue stickers, - but if you look carefully, you can still see where they have been.