I am at Sig today, so I won’t be able to comment as much as usual. I have airguns to test, but today I thought I would do something different. Many of our readers have gotten into modifying their guns, so I will address that today. What works, what “works” and what doesn’t.

The mostest-fastest pellet gun!

There are those who want to see just how fast a pellet can be propelled, so they put together a science experiment that uses helium as the propellant gas. They looked on the periodic table and discovered that helium is the gas with the smallest atom that is safe. Hydrogen atoms are smaller, but they remember the Hindenberg disaster.

They cobble up special fittings to connect a helium tank to their airgun. Ever wonder WHY certain gasses like oxygen and helium come in tanks with fittings that don’t couple with ours? It’s not a mistake. The fittings for those gasses are intentionally different that ours for safety reasons. That still doesn’t stop someone who works at a hospital from stealing an oxygen tank and making the fittings to fill their airgun. Then they find out why that’s not such a good idea.

An air rifle that was operated on pure oxygen.

If they live through the experience, they become spokesmen for the DON’T MISUSE OXYGEN campaign.

Every few years I am contacted by someone who has discovered that helium is a thinner gas that flows faster through a valve and increases pellet velocity. They invariably think they are the first to discover this, which is similar to a troop of Cub Scouts exploring the wilds of New York City’s Central Park. It may look raw to them but lots of folks have already been there.

What these people who are after speed don’t understand is, speed is not why most people shoot airguns. It might be a passing interest, but most airgunners come to realize that hitting the target is far more satisfying. And, if there is one thing these speed guns don’t do well it’s hit what they shoot at. Either that or the entire ensemble of stuff required to do the deed occupies the rear seat of a car and weighs more than the shooter. And it costs as much to shoot as a centerfire rifle shooting commercial ammo.

By the way, helium also leaks readily. Your PCP that holds air for years may leak down in hours when filled with helium.

I’m not telling anyone that this isn’t an interesting pursuit. I’m just saying is isn’t mainstream and I doubt it ever will be.

The mostest-powerfulest

A close companion to the speed freak is the power monger. He is after the highest number of foot-pounds (or kilogram force-meters per second — because these guys live everywhere) his airgun can generate. There is actually a large segment of the big bore airgun camp that does nothing but shoot their guns through chronographs, trying to keep the power bar raising!

How to generate power

Power in a projectile is a factor of both velocity and weight. Velocity increases power rapidly, as shooters were taught by Roy Weatherby, the “High Priest of High Velocity,” back in the 1940s and ’50s. But velocity is not the only thing that boosts power

Weight also increases power in a projectile. And weight also does something velocity does not do — it increases penetration.

Elmer Keith was perhaps the best-known proponent of heavy bullets. Though diminutive in stature, Keith liked his big bullets and wrote about them a lot. And, he had an acolyte in Art Alphin, the founder of the A-Square Company, LLC. When Art and I served together in Germany in the 1970s, he told me his dream was to go to Africa and hunt the Big Five — the five African game animals considered the most dangerous to hunt on foot. They are:

We linked up again at Fort Knox several years later and I saw Art at the nearby Knob Creek range, shooting a .458 Winchester Magnum off a bench! You have to appreciate that Art didn’t weigh more than 160 lbs. in those days (I was lighter then, too), and to see this little guy firing round after punishing round from a bench made me wonder. I have shot a .458, but I would never consider doing it from a benchrest!

Turns out Art had lost a Cape Buffalo in the African bush after hitting him with a .458 Winchester. So he resolved to never allow that to happen again and A Square was born. You may not have heard of the company, but many of you know of the .577 T-Rex cartridge. The .458 Winchester develops just over 5,000 foot-pounds, depending on the load. The .577 T-Rex develops 10,180 foot-pounds! If that doesn’t phase you, type .577 T-Rex go Boom into You Tube and watch the video.

The deal

Here’s the deal — move the heaviest projectile you can as fast as you can and you will get the greatest energy possible from that projectile. Why do I say it that way? Well, as projectiles increase in weight they also increase in size. The bore diameter keeps their width in check, so the length has to increase. The ultimate horsepower warriors end up with long bullets their guns cannot stabilize, and eventually they reach the limit of bullet length that can be loaded. The SAD thing is — it’s all for naught! It’s a meaningless pursuit, because it gets you nothing useable.

The same Elmer Keith who loved his big bore double rifles also acknowledged that a pistol bullet will go all the way through a cow, head to tail. In other words, a .44 caliber pistol bullet fired at 900 f.p.s. from a Colt Single Action revolver will be just as lethal to large game like bison as a 500-grain .458 bullet moving at 2,500 f.p.s. Just as lethal because neither bullet kills by energy. Both kill by penetration and blood loss.

Now, the .458 bullet does have a big advantage. It will break bones that the pistol bullet will not break. It keeps on going when things get in the way. So, it may do more damage to the animal as it passes through. That’s why big game hunters shoot .458 Magnum rounds. But the reverse is also true. Bison have been killed with .45 Colt bullets that produce less than 700 foot-pounds.

What does this mean?

The application of all of this is pretty basic. Big bore airguns kill by one main method — loss of blood. Brain shots are also very lethal, but they require pinpoint accuracy, because the brains on game animals are not that large, plus many animals like pigs and Cape Buffalo, are protected by thick bone plates. Unless you are positive of the shot, a brain shot is not the way to go. Blood loss is slower but more reliable.

A big bore airgun that develops 250 foot pounds or more and is .45 caliber will work for smaller deer, as long as it is accurate. Drop back to .357 caliber and you better increase the power by at least 100 foot-pounds to get the penetration you need. Lighter bullets don’t penetrate as far. Also, the blood loss will be slower from a smaller diameter bullet. This is why I do not recommend .30 caliber big bores for deer-sized game. Sure, they will work, but if you have understood this report you’ll see why they aren’t the best choice.

Summary

If you really want to hunt game, look for a big bore with proven accuracy. I recommend staying with .45 caliber or larger.

They are different critters from different places. The cape buffalo of Africa has horns that curve downward off the sides of the head and then upward. They look almost like a handlebar mustache on the top of it’s head. The water buffalo of Asia has horns that arc upward and backward off of their heads.

The water buffalo has been domesticated. I don’t know if anyone has tried with the cape buffalo.

Judging just from the writings of Capstick, Ruark, Cooper, and Seyfried, I’d wager that some have probably tried…and wound up tossed or pounded in the process. (In this context, regarding Syncerus caffer, “tossed” and “pounded” are actually technical terms. 🙂

Joking aside, though, most reports I’ve seen seem to suggest that old nyati is quite often just like other forms of cattle. It’s when he’s not–and specifically when he’s decided that you are the problem–that things can get serious in a hurry. I think it was Ruark who said that with the (Cape) buffalo, the problem is not so much killing him, as it is in getting him to understand that he has undergone this change in status. (A rather admirable attitude, really.)

When I was on Safari in SA, they called that the Water Buffalo…
They said the the horns are made of a calcified hair that creates a plate across the front of the head.
They also said that bullets bounce right off that thing…

Yogi, someone has fed you a line of BS. It’s an old tale but totally untrue. Any modern day rifle will go through the boss of a cape buff. I’ve been fortunate to take 3 of the critters in my life, all with a .458 Win Mag. The boss is not a good shot because it’s too high for a brain shot, but a good solid out of a .416, .375, or .458 will go through without too much of a problem.

Thank you Sir. I liked your article and It’s nice to see a writer that understands terminal ballistics. Folks are becoming more educated but I still deal with “knockdown” power zealots on a daily basis. As a retired cop and firearms examiner, I’ve seen my share of folks on the receiving end of a terminal ballistics “experiment”. No two are the same. Bullet design and construction have greatly improved in the last few years and made smaller calibers far more effective than ever before.

B.B.
The majority of gelatin shoots I now do for LE are agencies converting from .40S&W to 9mm. There have been a lot of changes in the 9mm in the last few years and bullet performance is so predictable, you could calibrate measuring equipment with the results. The feedback we get from agencies carrying current 9mm ammo and their officer involved shootings, confirms what we see in FBI protocol gelatin shoots.

So you are firmly in the MKS system!
B.B. is EEu (English Engineering units) or BGS (British Gravitational System) all the way
I prefer the CGS system since the Erg is just right! One Erg = 100 nanojoules…how sexy is that!
Makes your gun sound so much more powerful to say it shoots millions of nanojoules or even better with scientific notatation with exponents and 10 to the X power!

In the end the only thing that really matters is that the terminal ballistics get the job done. Punching a clean hole in paper or effect a quick clean kill!

I could be that like I, being an old fat bald geezer, had not had much experience with any other measuring system until well into my supposed adulthood. What is left of my mind does not think in the metric system and requires me to translate over to the ‘Merica system to comprehend. This old dog is capable of learning new tricks but most of the time sees no point in it.

If you are pursuing what really ‘trips your trigger’ it doesn’t matter how odd the endeavor might seem to other people. (Oh, you’ve necked down a .50 BMG case to fire a .12 caliber bullet? You estimate that you can get 8,000 fps with it? The barrel throat is fully eroded in 3 shots? And you can almost hit the side of a barn, shooting from inside the barn? Good for you, enjoy yourself.)
I am not a great hunter, but I realize that if the goal is to take game, shot placement is more important than a huge amount of energy. Bell was able to consistently take African elephants with a .303 British (that some consider a merely adequate medium-to-large game round).
Sufficient accuracy is what most people want. Sufficient to take game, or maybe a sufficient score and X-count to win the match (or even sufficient to dispatch the rogue soda can that’s prowling your property).
I mostly think that it’s about enjoying what you do. Go for it!

I’ve started to use those soft plastic “drinkable yogurt” bottles (stuffed with a plastic bags) as reactive targets. They are quite durable, jump nicely when hit and don’t shed bits of sharp metal. Have a couple hanging in strings and chase the ones on the ground down the target range with pellets 🙂

RR&GF1,
I have had the big blast caps for a while now and they are great fun. I fill 20oz or 2ltr bottles about half full of water because I like the spray. About 80psi is change pressure from just spray to boom. A fun set up is to fill a 2ltr half full of water add 60-70psi and set it out leaning back a bit so you can hit the bottom of it. With a well placed hit it will rocket off.
Gerald

Beware of oxygen! Oxygen makes everything burn faster. The more oxygen you have, the faster it burns. My college chemistry professor in 1987, related a liquid oxygen story: It seems that on a certain U.S. Air Force base they had a canister of liquid oxygen. Someone thought it would be interesting to freeze a mouse. Same someone thought it would be real neat to throw said frozen mouse and watch it shatter on the tarmac. The mouse exploded when it hit the tarmac leaving behind a 3ft x 3ft crater! No one was hurt.

Now think about that liquid oxygen tanker truck driving down the road next to you. You just might want to give that truck some extra space! It could take out an entire city block if it exploded!

I did get some shooting in Sunday and “boxed” the Athlon FFP scope (with turrets) and (mil dot holdoffs at 2 mag levels,.. 12 and 24). It all went very well. It was a nice test of the FFP. I do believe that was the first time I have done that. Thanks for the suggestion.

25,30 and 50 so far. About 100 shots. I did charge the battery and it took just a half hour. From what I have read, a couple thousand shots are possible on 1 charge. Sunday AM was a bit of a fluke in weather luck. The woods is quite dark now with a full canopy so the higher mags. do not work well. I even pulled out the M-rod and put it on 16x to verify. Bring the target out to 30 and in good light and it is clear as a bell even at 34x. The FFP seems to be working just fine.

The Huggett is cool and really works. It is more quiet than the M-rod and with the Huggett you just hear a ping for the most part. It is a very classy piece of work. They ain’t cheap if you look them up.

I am still fine tuning the Sportsmatch rings for windage at close and far. I did raise my seat height, but further fine tuning may be required. It is better.

This weekend is looking pretty good weather wise, so we shall see. Fri. is shot, but Sat. and Sun. AM should be open. That is about it on any kind of an update.

No lack of aim points. I think the higher mag. and dark woods will be universal with (any) scope,…. not just FFP. I think that in your situation where you are shooting in full open, it should do quite well. But,…. you don’t shoot high mag.,…. so why the interest?

I see they have a sun shade for the front, which I must have missed. I will be getting that along with an eye cup like on the M-rod. Since the cup is made for UTG’s, I will pull the one on the M-rod and see if it will work. It comes with 3 insert rings for different UTG ocular sizes. I have to look to be sure, but on big scopes, I do not think any inserts are needed. Hopefully it will work as there is not much out there for eye cups at all.

That eye cup makes a HUGE difference in keeping the pupil open, thus allowing for the maximum amount of light to reach the eye. If you remember, I heavily cut and fit mine. The rubber is way too stiff for self forming. Mine is form fitted to the eye socket/face.

Chris
Yep I figured Ed shooting with less light would be the same for the FFP scope but I haven’t owned one yet so wasn’t sure.

And I checked out the link. And yes I like that reticle.

And I do like higher magnification shooting also. But one thing that keeps me from it is if you adjust magnification up or down you need different hold over or under. So in reality I may like one magnification at a certain distance for a bird or get away with less magnification for something bigger like a raccoon.

So what I’m liking about with the FFP scope is then I would be able to choose what magnification I want for that particular situation and not have to worry about needing to know my different holds.

I plan on my .25 Condor SS to be my versatile pesting gun at distances of say 30 yards out to 100 yards. So that’s why I’m interested in the FFP scope. I matter of fact just got a AirForce .750″ riser for my scope rings to raise the scope for my cheek weld and line of sight. And their riser is like the self centering rings and risers UTG makes. I amost wonder if AirForce uses UTG to make them. But I usually don’t like how high the scope centerline is above the barrel centerline on AirForce guns. But my Condor SS seems to do good at distances of 20 yards out to 100 without much hold over. In otherwards it’s shooting the JSB 33.95’s pretty flat out to 100 yards.

And yep I remember back when I suggested the eye cup to you back when you was setting up your Mrod. They do work. But in my case for pesting I’ll be shouldering the gun quickly and won’t have time to get the eye cup in place.

It does not affect quick cheek weld at all. In fact it helps. The cup (can) touch the face, but it is really just (up to) the face/eye socket. It took about 1 1/2 hours to cut/fit/cut/fit/etc.. In other words,… you can hit it slightly and back off a tad and you will be in the exact perfect spot every time.

Yes, cheek risers are invaluable to me. I found that out with the M-rod with the RAI stock and the Fab Defense stock/butt with riser. The next gun I got, had to have that. The front bell is 1/8″ off the shroud (with cap) and body 1/8″ over the magazine, so all that worked well. Lucky there without doing extensive research on dimensions.

Chris
Yep I know about the BKL mounts. I have used them before. And the AirForce riser was a pretty nice slip fit when putting it on. I didn’t have to spread it open. And the .750″ riser did help my cheek weld and line of sight. I was having to lean my head over sideways which was actually kind of uncomfortable shooting. It’s much better now.

And on that eye cup. I guess getting it fitted right is what helps. So did it work out on your scope on the Daystate?

I have not tried it (M-rod eye cup on Red Wolf) yet. Later today most likely. Fri. is Mom and Dad help day along with my usual shopping and running. Looks like Sat. and Sun are shaping up to be pretty nice. Finally!

Gunnies are a pretty nerdy lot, when it comes right down to it. (I speak affectionately of course, on account of “I are one” and all.) What’s amazing is how religious the fervor can get in speaking of the “power” of hunting or defensive projectiles–given that any metric we could possibly hope to use as a basis for comparison is necessarily going to be fantastically arbitrary.

Oh, it’s not that I’m immune to it myself; a few years back I wanted to lay down a discussion of this notion of rifle cartridge “power” for the purpose of talking about the “general-purpose rifle”, and discussed some of the high profile points here. What I wanted to do with that, for anyone reading the article, was to make the larger point that we need not feel compelled to redline everything we have, somehow thinking that will enable us to accomplish common field tasks unattainable without doing so. Think of it this way: passionately arguing the relative merits of the various 300 magnums against each other, takes on a whole different flavor if you admit that the 30/06 will do the same functional job without all the added powder, pressure, blast, expense, recoil, etc., of any of the larger-bottle 30s, from the old gentle H&H through to the hotly-anticipated Ultimate Galactic Whangzanger. The problem is partly that using a measure such as simple kinetic energy, in this sort of comparison, makes it much easier to fool ourselves into thinking that the “performance gain” of the smallbore magnums, over their standard counterparts, is really significant, since the energy increases on the square of the velocity rather than linearly with it. And hell, even without that reality check: at the ranges at which any of us should actually be shooting “for blood”, the improvement is functionally trivial. (Don’t get me wrong: I’m more than happy to support anyone in a “because I can” effort–but really, let’s call it that.)

As Jeff Cooper put it, if the job truly can’t be done with a 180-grain 30/06, it can’t be done with a magnum 30 either; in such a case we should probably be looking at something closer to a 500-grain 458 instead, not quibbling about a few extra Eff Pee Ess from our 30s.

Now, all that aside, I do find it fascinating, in everything that I have learned about ballistics, that there does seem to be some emergent (say, last 20yrs) consensus about what may constitute an optimum impact velocity range for maximum penetration, specifically in reference to large-bore projectiles–and that these velocities seem to be much lower than standard wisdom might hold. To wit, and given the assumptions of a large-bore, large-meplat, non-deforming, heavy-weight projectile, it seems that there is not only a low-end velocity threshold that a projectile must meet to achieve maximum penetration, but that there is also a practical high-end limit, beyond which returns diminish and penetration actually starts to decrease again.

I was introduced to this idea because of my love of the 45/70 cartridge. Modern lever-actions and falling-block single shots can comfortably run loads far in excess of traditional factory offerings, and of course it is tempting to see how far one can go with that. I was caught up in that quest for a while (it really is seductive…a 300-grain bullet at nearly 2500f/s looks a whole lot like a 375 H&H, and 400 grains at over 2000f/s invites comparisons to the 458 Win Mag…), until I started reading action reports in which people reported the best penetration, in really big critters like African buffalo, with velocities that were not right out at the redline. What? How is it possible that a 45/70, at 1600f/s, could out-penetrate a 460 Weatherby, at 2600f/s, with both running solids?

Well, that bumblebee is supposed to be provably incapable of flying, as well–and yet here we are.

The results seemed to be consistent, too, across reports: this optimal impact velocity range sums up as, roughly, “not below 1300” and “not above 1700”. And boy, does that work well for the humble 45/70, at iron-sight ranges! You can back off from max loads and still run bullets from 400 to 550 grains at that level, comfortably. (What’s really fascinating is that this window, on the lower end, starts to include things like 325-grain 45 Colt loadings for modern revolvers, too: I have a box-stock 4 5/8″ Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt that shoots the Buffalo Bore 325s right over a measured 1300. It’s a little much to plink with as you might imagine, but that’s a 40-ounce beltgun that I can carry hands-free all day in bear country–and I live in Alaska.)

Anyway, I find it a bit ironic that I seem to OCD, in pretty true gunnie format, over the performance of my 45s: the 45/70 levergun, running 400s and 525s comfortably in this range; and the 45 revolver, just poking its head into the same territory with the 325s. It’s ironic because what I love so much about both cartridges is that they offer premium performance without flash, and in very size-efficient guns, which is important afield. The Blackhawk is no more cumbersome than a 1911, and the ’95 Marlin is short and light; each of them is surprisingly controllable given their available power levels, and I know I can hit with them quickly.

One of the things I intend to do, once I manage to become not-broke, is to break into the world of large-bore airguns. I am not specifically interested in trying to turn an airgun into a firearm (and thank you again, B.B., for helping me to begin my airgunnery adventure with the proper mind-set), but I admit that the idea of being able to run something like a 400-grain 45 bullet in the 700fps range, does have rather interesting hunting implications. (I continue to follow with interest.)

I have always been a fan of the .30-06 and it’s little brothers .25-06 and .270.

Buffalo hunters were quite successful at killing at extremely long ranges with rifles that were “slow”. People in recent years have taken buffalo, bear, etc. with big bore air rifles which are “real slow”.

As for up there, I have thought of a Marlin carbine chambered in S&W 500 Magnum and a 2 1/2″ barreled pistol for backup.

In the last year or two there have been some quite affordable big bores come to market. One you might consider is the Umarex Hammer.

Talking about raw power, Jack O’Connor, in his “Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns” wrote about the velocity/power thing. Jack mentioned a 2 gauge (8 once slug) and 4 gauge (4 ounce slug) guns for elephants. Evidently, when fired, the shooter would be spun around, knocked down and given a bleeding nose. Sounds like fun… one heck of a way to develop a flinch 🙂

Any (successful) archer know that accuracy and shot placement takes precedence over raw power. The same thing applies to airguns. You are not shooting at an animal – you are targeting specific organs inside it. I have taken numerous whitetails (150 to 200 pounds) with home made wooden bows with draw weights around 50 pounds. On a broadside shot, the arrow would go completely through and continue down range – 50 pounds is plenty of power.

IMHO. Besides bragging rights, pursuing power or velocity has some benefits but beyond practical application it is more of an experiment than anything else.

Hank,
Great stuff! A friend have me a book on how to tiller your own wooden bow.
But I have to confess, the only bow I ever made was from PVC, using a heat gun and a wooden jib to taper the ends from full diameter to flat at the ends (It was only a 25-lb bow, but it was for my nephew for target shooting). I admire your patience; the PVC bow took me an hour; making a wooden bow must take several weeks.
More power to you,
dave

Hitting the clay was cool in itself. But he talked a a bit about what he seen happening. What I thought told a story was that it didn’t take as many shots to hit out at 300 yards as it took when he started trying the shots at 200 yards.

A number of years ago I was reading an article that mentioned that we are running out of helium. I still see the tanks where balloons are sold so apparently the remaining supply is being sold at under market value at least in the US. Another article mentioned that filling a Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade balloon would cost $1,000,000 at actual market value.

We (Earth) are not running out of He (Helium.) what is the case, is that the USA had a huge supply stockpiled in the He reserves that we sold off over decades, just like we had Oil reserves for wartime use by the U.S. Navy, we sold off our He reserves over a long time at fixed prices. Those fixed prices made it difficult for private industry to economically get into the He buisness. We now have a world-wide infrastructure defficiency to refine and compress the He into pure and liquid form. The Earths reserves are also unknown for the most part because we have no clue which natural gas deposits have 7% by volume He and which have ratios (at much lower concentrations) that are still economically recoverable. Since the early 1900s most of the He in natural gas Wells around the rest of the world was just vented to atmosphere!

Yes to SHORTAGE of refined He…NO to EARTH IS RUNNING OUT! panic mongering.

Helium, which is needed for certain industrial and other serious applications, is beginning to run out, it appears. Therefore, a reasonable argument can be made against relatively “frivolous” uses of large quantities of Helium, such as rubber balloons (Mylar holds it indefinitely, so no real problem there), comedically high voices, and arguably even, ahem, big bore air rifles.

I have an idea. Maybe we should send some large rolls of mylar to the International Space Station and as it orbits around the Earth they can reel it out until they completely envelope the planet. Then as the helium rises to the mylar they can collect it and ship it back down.

Somewhat related to the speed record hopefuls — I have a question related to the muzzle-energy vs. wound tunnel debate, at least as I understand the debate.

Lets say someone wants to eliminate the racoon that keeps knocking over his garbage cans at 3:00 in the morning. The area is remote and hilly, so harming neighbors with over-penetration or a miss is not a concern. The racoon is bold and regularly distracted enough by his meals that the shooter is certain he can get just 6-7 yards from the racoon to get off an unhurried shot, but its head is usually buried in the garbage can, so that will not be the likely available target.

Which would be more effective/humane, a .17 HMR producing about 240 foot pounds of energy with its .17 grain bullet, or a Seneca Big Bore 44 909S Light Hunter air rifle producing 230 foot pounds with its 200 grain bullet?

Y’know, the old 150 MPH Porsche 911 vs. the 30 mph city bus scenario. Which would be more merciful?

No sledgehammer on the premises. No ball peen hammer, no slingshot, no .22 LR, no crossbow, no Sheridan Blue Streak, no Bowie knife, no Condor SS in .25, no shurikens, no blowgun or blowtorch, no sharp spoon (bonus points to anyone who gets that reference). One of the two options provided, or let it torment you for its entire natural life. :^)

I was making a veiled reference to the .44 versus the .17. Of course you could just club it to death with whichever rifle you liked the least. I do find the reference to the sharpened spoon interesting though.

Odd my rememberer could not fish out that reference. What I can recall is the line, “Locksley! When I get my hands on you, I’m going to carve your heart out with a spoon!” —Sheriff of Nottingham, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (not that good of a movie, I prefer Robin Hood: Men in Tights)

I would use the Big Bore! Even though both would over penetrate by excessive margins.
The main reason is the .17 round is more expensive than the lead slug.
A secondary reason is the supersonic crack of the .17 would disturb more sleeping animals nearby.
Finally at such a short range accurate hold under or sighting system adjustment is difficult so the BIG BORE slug is more probable to render a humane kill simply by the multiple increase in wound channel diameter and vital organ strike.

Michael
Ok I was waiting for someone else to reply about the distance and velocity and size of the bullet used.

I own a .17 hmr. And I have shot 30-06’s. At 6-7 yards your going to get pretty much the same result. The raccoon isn’t that thick or how do I say it a wide animal. And even if the raccoon was facing you tail first. Both rounds would only poke a small diameter hole at 7 yards through the whole raccoon. To close of distance to get the hydrostatic shock. So probably not much difference between the rounds as to how fast the raccoon would die. Both would pass through so fast that either projectile wouldn’t be in the animal long enough to make anything happen. And probably the animal would still be running when it fell over and died. Too fast and too small of diameter and weight ain’t came into play yet.

Now back up to 80-100 yards and between the 2 guns you originally mentioned. One gun will blow the raccoon up at 100 yards. The other will blow the opposite end of the critter to smithereens.

So as it goes. Distance is also a factor for the velocity and projectile diameter and weight.

I wrote the shooter could get as close to 6-7 yards, but he could also shoot from 10 yards or 15 yards, or . . . . Tell you what, because of space LIMITATIONS the shooter cannot shoot at a distance greater than 20 yards, so the shot must be from between 6 and 20 yards.

Also, the question isn’t if either could kill it. The question is which would be the most humane/quick way to end the life of the animal.

What would be the most appropriate weapon to kill a raccoon is a different hypothetical to start a different debate. There happen to be only two choices for killing the racoon in this hypothetical, a .17 HMR or the ,44 Seneca Light Hunter. The energy at the muzzle is about the same. A third option is to leave it alone and allow to feed it your garbage every single night and picking up after it every morning. There are no other options in this hypothetical.

Hey, if you can’t kill it with either weapon, look on the bright side, you could at least name it and consider it an outdoor-only pet! ;^)

My apologies. I should remember by now to look lower before I ever reply. Sorry about that.

You did indeed address my question in there, along with an excellent breakdown of the details.

As always, the right tool for the job, right? :^) All the more reason to have lots and lots of different air rifles. I hunt cans only, but some are little tomato juice cans, some are big energy drink cans, some are big coffee cans, etc.

Raccoons were raiding my bird feeders a few years ago. One night I heard a noise outside and I looked out and there was a big raccoon standing on it’s hind legs eating out of one of my feeders. The feeder was at least three feet off the ground, maybe more. So he was a big one. At that time I had Crosman Nitro Venom .22 caliber air rifle. This was my first experience with one of the newer gas piston airguns.

I took the Crosman outside with a flashlight and shinned it on the raccoon. I had a scope on the Crosman but I could see the crosshairs and aimed right between his eyes. I was about ten yards away when I shot. He dropped as if he had been hit with .22LR and never made a move. That made me a believer in the power of a gas piston breakbarrel airgun.

I believe that Crosman Nitro Venom has about 16 FPE with a 14.5g pellet. I now shoot a Gamo Urban PCP .22 caliber with 25 FPE and I would not hesitate taking a raccoon or woodchuck with that air rifle. Shot placement is key.

I would whistle at the raccoon to get him to lift his head, then take a head shot.

Crosman claims 21 foot-pounds from the Nitro Venom in .22, but you know how that goes. But your air rifle is impressive. Man. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is a bit more powerful than 16 fpe. (Do you have a chronograph?)

I couldn’t help but notice how many positive reviews the Nitro Veom has on its P.A. page.

No, I do not own a chronograph. Yes, according to Crosman’s literature the Venom shoots at
950 fps and generates 21 fpe. Of course, the 950 is with an alloy pellet, not lead. I know the Venom does shoot very hard though because when I made a backstop to shoot it in the basement at 17 yards, the .22 pellets were breaking through 5/8″ OSB. I added a second layer of 1/2″ OSB and still was getting some break through. This was my first breakbarrel, before I learned the idiosyncrasies of shooting a breakbarrel. My initial accuracy goal was 1″ or less groups at 25 yards. The best I was able to achieve was 1 1/2″ to 2″.

I thought that the Venom was just not accurate enough. So I upgraded my next purchase to a RWS Diana 34P in .22 caliber. It’s power was similar to the Venom’s but then so was the accuracy. The Diana 34 is known to be very accurate, so the accuracy issues were all with me.

After attempting for four years, 2013 thru 2017, to achieve decent groups, and with everyone here on the blog posting many suggestions, B.B. took pity on me and asked me send my Diana 34P to him for review and testing. He discovered it had a broken main spring and installed a Vortek kit in it for me. That was not the cause of my poor accuracy though. B.B. demonstrated that my Diana 34P was very accurate and he was able to shoot a 1″ group at 25 yards with it. He sent it back to me in July 2017. I was sure I would be able to duplicate B.B.’s results, but no. I tried various artillery holds and positions but just could never achieve my goal of 1″ at 25 yards, and continued get 1 1/2″ to 2 1/2″ groups.

After several more months of trying, I finally gave up on my Diana 34P. This spring in March
I made the leap to a PCP airgun. I purchased a Gamo Urban .22. Wow! My accuracy problems were gone and I could consistently shoot less than 1″ groups at 30 yards. I had to invest about $500 in equipment. A new UTG scope, the Urban, and a HPA hand pump. But now I’m all set and couldn’t be happier with my decision. This spring I was able to dispatch sparrows from my bluebird nesting boxes with nary a miss. The bluebirds fledged out two broods this spring with no harassment from sparrows. I also dispatched 20 or more starlings from my feeders, along with two gophers. Well, that’s my story in case you hadn’t read about here in the blog. For me, the answer was to get a PCP airgun.

An interesting study I read of some time back was the comparison of the AR-15 and the AK-47 or more specifically the comparison of the 5.56 NATO round versus the 7.62×39. The author took some 4×4 sections and laid them against each other and strapped them tight together. His intention was to see which round would provide the best penetration. After shooting into either side with the respective rounds and unstrapping the 4x4s he was able to show that the 7.62×39 had penetrated almost twice as far though the 5.56 NATO was almost twice as fast.

I used to groundhog hunt with a .223 when I was a teen. I thought it was a dandy varmint round, but I had a very low opinion of it as a war weapon, although when I was in the Navy the SEALS were carrying a version of the M-16 that I liked. They threw away the butt stock and had a round 6′ fore stock with the sight triangle right ahead of that and a muzzle brake right after that. I thought it made a nice submachine gun.

Here’s an interesting strategic question: In a war, which is more harmful to the opposing army, killing one of its combatants, or seriously wounding one of its combatants? The 5.56 NATO might be strategically superior to the 7.62×39 when it comes to the big picture.

That is the argument that was used to sell the Mattelomatic to everyone. The problem with that argument is that most of those we fight do not concern themselves with the wounded until after the fight, if at all. The truth of the matter is the 5.56 NATO and the Mattleomatic is cheaper than the 7.62 NATO and the M-14.

It isn’t just at the Strategic level that a 5.56 NATO round wins by wounding, but also at the Logistical, by being able to transport more individual rounds per unit volume and weight measure to the theater of operations; as well as at the Tactical level since each combatant can carry more rounds and use them in multiple purpose platforms. Shoot away rates have always been thousands of rounds for each casualty in War.

It is totally logistical. It is much cheaper. Just as they replaced the .45ACP with the 9mm.

As for the thousands of rounds per casualty, you give a scared soldier an automatic weapon and he is going to spray and pray. With a semi he has to slow down and pick his shots. With a bolt action he becomes deadly.

Speaking of cool things, I just noticed that the Chaser rifle is actually the Chaser Kit. It comes with a pistol barrel in addition to the carbine-length barrel! So it could be a carbine, a pistol, a “Buntline-esque” pistol, or a shoulder-stocked pistol! Four configurations with just one affordable purchase.

Wow. It sure would be swell if some online airgun guru tested the Chaser Kit in all its configurations. :^)

When Mike Tyson was champ, somebone, perhaps Mike himself, said, “No matter how big and bad you are, there is always someone out there who is bigger than badder. Not getting into 2 Bore, 1 Bore (1.67 caliber) and Half Bore (2.1 caliber) custom made rounds, here is my entry in the Tyrannosaurus sweepstakes, the 2400-3600 grain projectile, 240 grains of powder, .950 JDJ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xohy9gWz7kk

Well I finally shot it today, not much just a quick check with the addition of the HellBoy barrel that made it 24″ long in total. The max velocity stated in the add was 430 fps.

The first shot I fired with one CO2 cartridge installed, using Daisy zinc plated premium BBs passed through at 509 fps.
It can drop down into 470s as it gets colder , single shot, and the spread opens up also. I then removed the additional barrel and in stock length I got 460 fps. So I figure I got an additional 50 fps from ‘my’ rifle with the extended barrel but that’s 80 fps faster then the stated max velocity it’s capable of.

This DPMS is a real hand full with amazing recoil. I took one more shot with the extra barrel after it warmed up and held it tight against my shoulder and got ‘531 fps’ on the Crony. Immediate follow up shot dropped to 494.

That was 100 fps faster than the max velocity stated. Not to shabby for now. Will eventually try to get any accuracy changes and fps drop after shooting a mag on full auto.

GF1
Tyler has a good u tube on the P/A page for this in stock form. I will do it with the 24″ barrel set up.

It’s not just the bolt that recoils it’s the entire rifle, and you can not avoid it. There is nothing better than this in a full-auto CO2 BB rifle. You will be hard pressed to tell it’s not a metal receiver and RIS.

Bob
How many bb’s does it hold that can be shot full auto. 30 bb’s? 100 bb’s? What I mean is how many before you have to fill the magazine or clip again for when the trigger gets pulled for the next full auto shots.

GF1
Good question … the description says it holds 25 and the specifications says 30. I have not filled it up yet and there are a number of them stuck in the magnetized head for now. Can’t tell how many till I shoot them out and refill. I don’t see any reason why the entire mag would not empty with one trigger pull what ever the number is. It is select fire.

GF1
I just have one CO2 in it now and just wanted to see how it worked with the extended barrel. Only fired a few shots. It will be a while before I set everything up for a full test. Near a hundred degrees outside anyway. Let you know when I get a ’round tuit’
My ex is back home from the hospital and requires a lot of my time.

Tyler said he got about 175 shots out of the two CO2 in the mag . About 150 usable with 7 full mags.

And that’s good it operates on one Co2 cartridge. And that’s pretty good shot count. And that makes me wonder if the setup from a Steel Storm could be used to convert it to a tethered 13 cu in regulated HPA bottle. That’s what I have on my Steel Storm.

I’ll be waiting to hear more about how your shooting goes with it. And yep know what you mean about taking care of someone. Hopefully that will get better for you soon too.

Jim M
I was very disappointed with the accuracy of the Air Ventury HellBoy M4 Carbine BB rifle so I decided to try using a different barrel. I removed the 20″ barrel from my Remington Air Master pump rifle and installed it in the HellBoy without much trouble. The accuracy improved ‘some’ and since that barrel was rifled I found I could fit a Crosman Competition pellet into the face of the drop out mag and fire a pellet from it. Put the majority of them into a 3/4″ group at 10 meters. An extra bonus with the barrel swap!

Next I ordered a relatively cheep Crosman Legacy to remove the barrel to replace the one I removed from the Remington AM which has a metal receiver (Basically the same rifle) As an added bonus the Legacy had a beefed up pump assembly so I now have a ‘Super Remington AM’

Jim M (CONTINUED)
The screen locked up on my previous page. Had to send it early.

OK so now I had the original HellBoy barrel left over. I then received my DPMS SBR, and decided to see if I could extend the short 10″ barrel with it. I removed the fake flash hider and the HellBoy barrel slid right in and lined up. I added two Airsoft M4 outer barrel extensions and a small fake silencer to hold the barrel in place. Added a small washer at the tip to keep it retained. All CCW threads.
Well it added up to a 24″ barrel and added as much as 100 FPS to the max 430 FPS in the description. I got 530 FPS but it drops off when colder.

Since the HellBoy and Crosman 2100 barrel swap was easy, one may be used to extend the DPMS SBR barrel cut to length desired to extend it. Not sure if it will fit into a DPMS to replace the 10″ barrel.

Mr Pelletier is pretty much right on in regards to his comments about penetration. Projectile design and construction are a far more important factor than velocity. I teach wound ballistics to law enforcement for a major ammo maker and have shot a lot of gelatin. He is also correct about the mechanism that stops or “in-animates” a critter (two or four legged). Blood loss or hypovolemic shock is the key factor (lacking a central nervous system shot) in that process. Penetration into blood carrying organs and ventilating the closed circulatory system is required. Look up the name Randy Garrett. Randy is the former owner of Garrett Ammo and has more practical first hand knowledge than anyone I know on penetration and the factors that dictate it. His 540 grain Hammerhead .45-70 bullet at 1550 pfs will shoot completely through an American bison. Velocity is simply a mechanism to get the projectile to the target in the most efficient manner. A lot of science has gone into the design of modern projectiles and they are designed to work within a velocity envelope at standard SAAMI pressures and velocities.

Welcome to the blog. And thank you for posting your comments. It’s always nice to see a new name (face)
on the blog, especially a person with expert knowledge on a subject like projectiles. Hopefully you can apply some of your teachings to us airgun people 😉

Thanks Geo. Just got into airguns in the last year but am having a great time. I live in the country in the North Idaho area and one of my fav pass times is shooting grasshoppers from my porch with my FWB. A PCP is on the list for my next purchase.
Thanks for the welcome Sir!

Nice to have you aboard! I live in southwest Mi and traveled west many years ago on a trip out to Yellowstone. My wife and I were still very young but we enjoyed the Rocky mountains. We’ve never been to Idaho but from pictures I have seen, it appears to be a beautiful area in which to live.

If you have been following the blog for a while you may have seen my posts. I have a Diana RWS 34P in .22 caliber. I’ve had this rifle for five years and have not been able to shoot it accurately. It’s not the rifle, it’s me. I am just not able to shoot a springer accurately. I have tried all the tricks, holds, and pellets. B.B. even had me send the rifle to him in June 2017 to do a review and test it for me. He installed a Vortek Kit in it and it shot 1″ groups at 25 yards for him. It’s as smooth as butter, but my groups are 1 1/2″ to 2″+ at 25 yrds. My intended use for the airgun was to dispatch harassing sparrows from my several bluebird nesting boxes at 25 to 35 yards. I was able to do that on few occasions and missed more than I hit. I gave the Diana 34, and me, every chance to shoot better. It just never happened and after five years of trying, I decided to do as was suggested by a few helpful folks here on the blog. I bought a PCP and now my accurate shooting problems are history.

This spring I bought a Gamo Urban PCP, a new UTG 3-12x44swat scope, and a cheap HPA hand pump. The Urban is manufactured in Birmingham, England in the BSA plant. It has a hammer forged barrel known for great accuracy and is basically a rebranded BSA Buccaneer at half the cost. Gamo is in partnership with Gamo, or maybe Gamo now owns part of them now.

This is considered an entry level PCP ($300 or less) but is in a whole different class from other entry level PCPs. It’s compact and light weight with a synthetic thumb hole stock. This spring my bluebirds have fledged out two broods and nary a sparrow harassed them. I also dispatched over 20 starlings from my bird feeders out in the front of my house, and a couple of gophers as well. I have rarely missed a pest with this rifle. My new goal is to shoot 5-shot groups of less than 1/2″ at 50 yards. Now when I pest I don’t worry about whether I can hit the target. I am now more concerned with where on the target I want the pellet to impact. Sorry, I get a little over zealous about my Urban 🙂

Geo,
My springer is one of the “recoilless” 54’s and accuracy hasn’t been an issue. The rifle shoots very well. However, cocking that side lever is a bit slow and will definitely make a man out of you. I’ve got a close friend that has a Theoben and I love shooting that thing. I’m looking at an Air Arms or BSA. Of course all the support equipment is another story.

Air Arms and BSA are both top of line airguns. If you are just starting into PCP airguns, like me, I would suggest starting with one that has a smaller cylinder that fills to no more than 3000 psi (200 bar). Then buy one of the cheap HPA hand pumps to fill it. Start with this setup and then you can move up to a better fill system later if needed. I don’t target shoot a lot with my Urban, just enough to keep in practice. I use my rifle for pesting mostly. When I target shoot, I usually only shoot 40 or 50 shots at a time. I get 20-25 good shots before a refill is needed. Refilling the rifle back up to 3000 psi is a good cardio workout but I don’t mind, it’s good exercise. I just don’t want to do more than about three time in one session. I will be 72 years old this December, so an old guy can still do this 😉

Geo,
Thanks much for the recommendations, it much appreciated. I think my first PCP will be a .22 and like you, it’ll be used mostly for pest control. Brother, I’d say you are doing pretty darned good for an “old guy”. I’ve had occasion to refill a friends PCP with a handpump, and it is a workout. I’m only a couple of years younger than you and needed a drink after a couple of “refill” sessions.

Welcome too. Please share any carry over observations from your profession and how it may relate to air gunning. Although,… perhaps maybe too graphic for a family friendly blog,.. at least the graphic description of wound channels of 2 and 4 legged “critters”. I am sure much else would carry over very well though.

We have another poster from northern Idaho that uses the handle Idaho,… but have not seen him post in a awhile. Very northern, if I recall. If I remember, he has a HW 100 and a Daystate Wolverine.

A PCP would be a very nice next step for you. I started with springers and now my collection consist only of PCP’s. Mine consist of a .22 Maximus (light, looks great and very accurate), a .25 Marauder with an RAI stock, Fab Defense 6 position, bi pod, over sized pistol grips front and rear (very nice and accurate too) and the finally a .25 Daystate Red Wolf Serie Rosso HP Limited Edition which I just recently acquired and am still getting to know (think exotic sports car, a red one). 😉

Chris,
Not sure a lot of my experience with law enforcement ammo will carry over into the air gun world, but appreciate your interest. I do plan on shooting a few pellets into some left over gelatin after my next shoot. I haven’t had much of a penetration issue from a .177 Crow Magnum pellet on the grasshoppers and field mice I’ve been shooting. The RWS and FWB springers seem to have plenty of power for for that “big game”. Accuracy with both rifles is outstanding, but I just get tired of cocking and loading for every shot. An afternoon of “sniping” grasshoppers can make you tired!
Have been shooting a friends Theoben and really enjoy that rifle. I’m looking at either an Air Arms or BSA PCP. I also really like the Daystate line up.
Thanks for the welcome, appreciate it!
“Taj”

Geo,
Yeah I know, they are a bit pricey. I worked for S&W for a few years after I retired from LE and a friend that I worked with there, purchased a Daystate and really loves the gun. This friend was a 4 time world champion IPSC shooter so knows how to pull a trigger. He said that his Daystate was the most accurate rifle he’d ever owned.
“Taj’

Interesting that you worked for Smith & Wesson. I bought a few hand guns back in my younger years when I still hunted. I bought a High Standard auto .22 and didn’t like it much. I traded that for a Ruger revolver .22/.22mag but it was on a western frame and was heavy. Didn’t like that one much either, didn’t fit my hand well. Then I traded that for a S&W model 34k with a 4 1/2″ barrel. What a nice little hand gun that is and I still own it to this day, even though I have not shot it in years. It is accurate at 25 yards and I used it to hunt rabbits back in the day when I had to beagle. The S&W is obviously a very high quality handgun. I never saw any reason to replace it with anything else.

And yes, Daystate is a primo airgun from what I have read. ChrisUSA, here on the blog, just bought a Red Wolf limited edition so I have been reading about it and Chris’s blog comments. I posted a couple of links of a review and programming of the Red Wolf. This would be a Ferrari if it were a car. Here are those links in case you would like to watch the videos.

Well, if you are funded well enough, get the best you can. You do not have to go FX, Daystate or Air Arms,… but it will not hurt either. There is lots to chose from all the way down from those and perfectly acceptable. The nicer ones can get heavy(er), so consider weight and how you will use it.

Problem is,…. there is SOOOOO much to choose from. Geo’s Urban does very well and more than enough for pesting.