DjangoStonereaver:Back in the original series, in THE FIVE DOCTORS ISTR, theyoffered the Master a new course of regenerations if he would do their bidding

That's assuming they weren't lying to him to get what they wanted from him.

I like the idea of the regeneration limit being a societal construct rather than a physiological limit, but I'm not sure the show will take it that way. Considering the treatment of immortality in 'The Five Doctors', I'm inclined to think bad things happen to a Time Lord who regenerates too many times.

We don't need to see the Time War to see those- to the contrary, it's far more interesting to see the effects. Imagine if somebody went back and tried to make a trilogy that was the origin story of a major character like Darth Vader, covering every angstrom of his growth from a promising child, into a Jedi, and eventually into Darth Vader. It'd be terrible, because everything important was covered with a single line uttered by Obi Wan.

Everything important about the Time War isn't the specific details about what happened.More important: it's a time war. There should be multiple versions of what happened. History was in chaotic flux. There's one version of the Time War where Rassilon came back. There's another where he didn't. There's only one true fact about the Time War: the Doctor ended it, at great personal cost. The Time War can't, and shouldn't, have a single history. It should be bifurcating chaos that's comprehensible only to a Time Lord. If a human could understand the true horrors of the Time War, it wouldn't actually be that horrible.

t3knomanser:We don't need to see the Time War to see those- to the contrary, it's far more interesting to see the effects. Imagine if somebody went back and tried to make a trilogy that was the origin story of a major character like Darth Vader, covering every angstrom of his growth from a promising child, into a Jedi, and eventually into Darth Vader. It'd be terrible, because everything important was covered with a single line uttered by Obi Wan.

There's nothing wrong with the idea of a Vader-genesis story. If it hadn't been executed so terribly, it could have been good. Even great. The core problem is that Lucas didn't seem to understand the forces he was dealing with. He swapped out humanity for magic. (Different topic, though.)

PartTimeBuddha:There's nothing wrong with the idea of a Vader-genesis story

I disagree, deeply. There was nothing to add to the character of Darth Vader. We already knew everything we needed to know. Just like with the Time War. We already know everything important about the Time War. Retreading it is just that- retreading a story we already know. It's not a story that needs to be told. It won't tell us anything new about the Doctor. It won't tell us anything we don't already know about the Time Lords, or the Daleks. It won't even tell us anything we don't already know about the Time War, really- it was horrible, billions died, and the Doctor finished it in the most tragic and drastic way. We knew everything important in 2005.

I tried to watch Doctor Who after reading so many god damn articles on fark about it. I started with the version with the Doctor & Rose. I must say that after about 6 episodes in I just said fark it, and decided that this show is retarded. Although the sidekicks are hot.

t3knomanser:PartTimeBuddha: There's nothing wrong with the idea of a Vader-genesis story

I disagree, deeply. There was nothing to add to the character of Darth Vader. We already knew everything we needed to know. Just like with the Time War. We already know everything important about the Time War. Retreading it is just that- retreading a story we already know. It's not a story that needs to be told. It won't tell us anything new about the Doctor. It won't tell us anything we don't already know about the Time Lords, or the Daleks. It won't even tell us anything we don't already know about the Time War, really- it was horrible, billions died, and the Doctor finished it in the most tragic and drastic way. We knew everything important in 2005.

I disagree, deeply with you. A story isn't an historical summary. A story is a process of character interactions and changes.

Let me give a fictitious example: in the TV series, we see The Doctor in various stages of grief, anger, regret etc. That's fine: we note he is in this or that emotional state, we understand and accept it. But as an explanation for the cause of those feelings, saying "Time War dunnit!" is really quite a cop-out because you're left not knowing the specific cost to The Doctor of his actions. It's that lack of specificity which is the problem.

PartTimeBuddha:A story is a process of character interactions and changes.

Which would be absent. We know the character from before the Time War. We know the character after the Time War. The stuff inbetween wouldn't have any flexibility to actually tell a character story- it's stuck on a straight line path from A to B. You can't challenge the Doctor, you can't take anything away from the Doctor, or force him to sacrifice anything, because we already know how it turns out. The character can't have an arc- he has a track. He leaves the station, travels thirty miles, and arrives at the next station.

PartTimeBuddha:left not knowing the specific cost to The Doctor of his actions

While "The End of Time" was a complete mess, it directly contradicts this- we see exactly what the cost to the Doctor was. We know exactly why he included the Time Lords in his genocide- and as we discover, it wasn't just the vagaries of the battlefield- he destroyed the Time Lords because they had become as evil as the Daleks. We didn't need a Time War focused story to teach us that. Much of Eccleston's run was focused on finding the unexploded bombs left over from that war- and we see how crushed he is when he discovers that he did not destroy the Daleks, and discovers his sacrifice was in vain.

The story of the Time War has been made perfectly clear. The facts of the events are irrelevant. What the Doctor fought for, what he lost, was communicated far more clearly in "The Empty Child" two parter, when at the end, he dances a little jig and cries out, "EVERYBODY LIVES!" There's so much more in that one moment than you could do in a thousand movies about the Time War, mostly because Eccleston was probably the best actor to take on the role of the Doctor. But right there, that desperate glee, that gives us all the guilt and anguish the Doctor has suffered. Pile that on with the way he rages in "Dalek", and you've got the entire story of the Time War.

And honestly, at this point? The Time War has become pretty much irrelevant. We're passed the shattered veteran stories, and we've moved on to a Doctor who struggles in a world where he has no anchor, where he has discovered that the terrible things he's done weren't confined to a terrible time in his past- but have become part of who he is. He's dealing with the fact that, if he held himself to the same standards as he holds everyone else, he is his own worst enemy. Which leads me to hope that Hurt!Doctor has nothing to do with the Time War, but instead is the Doctor's future. A looming Darkness that he fears.

First of all, we haven't learned the (personal) name of the Doctor. As 11 says at one point, it's not important. He didn't say his name, and the person who spoke it (River) is "no living creature". The episode is about the name "The Doctor", and its significance. As 11 said, "it's a promise"; all of the prior Doctors we've seen have abided by this promise.

Doctor Hurt, on the other hand, was a regeneration of the Doctor between 8 (McGann) and 9 (Eccleston). He broke that promise, and unworthy of the name "the Doctor". Part of my evidence for that was Hurt's attire - a mishmash of the outfits both of those two had. So 11 calls himself 11 because he's the 11th Doctor, but not the 11th regeneration of the Gallifreyan guy that the show has been about all along... He calls himself the Doctor, but the other regenerations are horrified of what he is/was. Hence the whole "Doctor" means "Great Warrior" thing in so many episodes.

As an aside, the "Fall of the 11th" is a future (from our point of view) event, not "falling from orbit".

1) I think the Hurt Doctor is the first good candidate for the voice that says "Silence will fall" when the TARDIS explodes.2) Speaking of, based on this episode I'd say that explosion was an attempt to kill River and the TARDIS in one fell swoop. After all she's the one who actually says the Doctor's name to save Vastra, Jenny, et al.. And if the TARDIS didn't exist any more it wouldn't have been on Trenzalore.3) So what do the Silence have to gain by preventing what happened on Trenzalore? It's pretty obvious that was their goal. They didn't want those doors to open for one reason or another. The only significant thing that happened was three different people entering the Doctor's open time stream: a) The Great Intelligence. The result of that was the Doctor being erased from history effectively destroying the universe. Given that the Silence destroyed the universe when the TARDIS exploded it doesn't make any sense that this is what they're trying to prevent. b) Clara. All she really did was undo the damage done by the GI. So it's a wash, it doesn't seem like the Silence would gain anything by preventing her from entering. c) The Doctor, who only entered to save Clara. But at the end of his journey in he encounters the Hurt Doctor. This, I think, is the most likely scenario the Silence are trying to prevent. Does something about that encounter cause a future catastrophe?

Wacky and almost definitely wrong theory time: The Hurt Doctor is the sole reason for the Silence's existence, most likely working with them in some capacity at some point. The Church (the army) was more than willing to work with River and the Doctor during the events of "Time of Angels"/"Flesh and Stone" then the next time we see them in "A Good Man Goes To War" they're out for his blood and talking about some neverending war. So the Hurt Doctor, 8.5, comes out of the Time War soaked in genocide and decides that, in the interest of peace and sanity, he's going to war with the universe to establish order. At some point he crosses paths with the Church and every race that locks the Doctor in the Pandorica, they recognize him as the Doctor but don't distinguish that he isn't acting in that name.

It's a messy theory but would also explain why the Doctor has been dedicating himself to efforts to erase that name from history.

Capital A:Can we all just admit that this show has become a convoluted mess? I really liked Matt Smith's first series but it's been all downhill after that for me.

No because it only takes a moment to understand it. Some people hate moffats time based writing but it adds a really great edge to the show. He uses time more than anyone else. I like it personally because it doesn't make every episode some deus ex machina ending that are usually a staple of this series.

This last series bounced around a lot but it really wasn't nearly as confusing as the previous one (which I thought was the best yet).

Yes. There have been a couple of references to it this season. The most recent was the Cyber Controller in "Nightmare in Silver". He also told the Doctor that someone could easily reconstruct the Doctor's history just by examining the shape of the hole he was leaving in history as he deleted stuff. It seemed to genuinely concern the Doctor that he had overlooked that.

t3knomanser:HindiDiscoMonster: only if they use the real theme music, not this bastardized shiat they play now... though i would accept the theme from when Tennant was the doctor as well.

Aside from that stupid riff in the opening bars, the current theme is far closer to what the theme should sound like than the Tennant-era theme. I've never liked the orchestral style theme- the "Doctor Who" theme should never sound like it's being played by instruments- that's what makes the original theme so great. It was hacked together by people armed with nothing more than signal generators and reel-to-reel tape recorders.

Oh I agree; though the theme at the very beginning of the series was a better version. Yeah there was an orchestra involved, but it was mostly in the background.

PartTimeBuddha:t3knomanser: The story of the Time War should involve weapons and ideas that are just incomprehensible to mere mortals. Let's say the Daleks have conquered a planet. In the Time War, how would you unconquer it? Why, you'd go back in time, and erase the Daleks who were part of the invasion force from history. Or you'd seed the planet with superweapons that could be used to pry them off the planet. Or, and this is probably what usually ended up happening- you'd plant an extremely destructive bomb before the planet even forms. It would lie dormant for billions of years, until the Daleks committed their forces to conquering the planet- and then you'd blow up the entire thing.

You misunderstand storytelling.

The story of the Time War would be the sequence of events which lead up to The Doctor initiating the Moment. The trust, the love, the rivalry and the betrayals. The return of Rasslion, the passion and necessity of engaging in the war in the first place, the leverage over The Doctor as he works and struggles to avoid making the final, awful decision to seal off his own race from the Universe against a background of moribund and corrupt societies.

Stories are personal journeys -- not just slapping one's Sonic Screwdriver on the table and ordering the biatch to gobble it up.

(Well. Depending.)

I've seen the entire War Games story and lord, that was long and arduous. A Time War story would be 10 times as long, maybe even longer than the entire "Trial of a Time Lord" season.

Rwa2play:I've seen the entire War Games story and lord, that was long and arduous.

Well, "The War Games" is an example of "poor execution". It was originally scripted as a 6 episode story. At the last minute, one of the scripts for a different serial fell through, so they extended "The War Games" by four episodes. This led to a great deal of, "The companions get captured and escape and get captured" padding.

PizzaJedi81:Son of Thunder: Come on, how hard would it be to write her out of the computer? Fix up her body or clone her a new one, and download her mind back into it. Why didn't she tell everyone? Because "spoilers".

My theory on Clara was that River was going to use her as a way out of the Library. Not quite sure what I had thought, but it made sense at the time.

Alcohol may have been involved.

Not that it was intentional (but maybe it was) but I think Clara looks a little like a grown-up version of the girl inside the computer core in Silence/Forest.

Great Janitor:Sergeant Grumbles: Great Janitor: Or...The Doctor, thanks to the fact that the Time Lords can trade, buy and sell regenerations the Doctor may still have twenty or more regenerations remaining.

River Song did give the Doctor all of her remaining regenerations.Also heard that Timelords' regenerations were restored for use in the Time War.Also heard that while 13 regens is standard for Timelords, that isn't necessarily a hard limit, just a taboo, custom or law that Timelords do not break. It quite possible that without Gallifrey, whatever physical or cultural limitations were placed on regenerations is gone.

In Classic Who, the Master was always after the Doctor's remaining lives, all the way up to the 8th Doctor movie. In that movie, the voice over explains that Time Lords are limited to 13 lives and that the Master had used up his, but the Master doesn't play by the rules. And after being cremated via execution, the Master regenerates into a (from what I read on another site) Skaro Serpent and hijacks a human body. This makes regeneration a bit more muddled. If there is no limit, just some taboo, then why would the Master, a renegade Time Lord, seek out to steal regenerations? And how was he able to regenerate in the Who movie if he had been reduced to ash? "Turn Left" has the Doctor drowning and unable to regenerate but the Master can pull it off without a body??? Hell, even in that movie its explained that the Doctor almost died because the drugs used almost inhibited the regeneration process. Die during heart surgery: possibly no regeneration. Killed and cremated and locked in a box: regeneration into nothing higher than a snake.

The Master always has a contingency plan. He's always got an exit strategy and a trick up his sleeve. The Doctor is Lucky. The Master is the Trix Rabbit. (Although after he regenerated in the new series he was more like Sonny the Cocoa Puffs Cuckoo.) The Corsair would therefore be Cap'n Crunch. Possibly Sugar Bear.

PizzaJedi81:gingerjet: And not chasing actors in lizard costumes every week.

Oh, come now...you know that you want some good lizard costume action every once in a while. Zome Zygons (YAY, 50th Anniversary!), a few Silurians, maybe an Axonite?

There's a certain lizard costume I'd like to see the entirety of. Purely for scientific purposes, you understand. Without all that Victorian brocade and lace in the way she might look like a green version of Mystique. Also, I understand she's got some generously-sized venom sacs.

Son of Thunder:The entire conceit that people from different time periods could someone merge their consciousnesses is dodgy enough, but when you throw in the fact that the River that appeared was the River trapped in the Library, it gets even more convoluted. Add to that the idea that The Doctor could still somehow see (and kiss) River at the end and logically the entire thing doesn't make a damn bit of sense

Come on, how hard would it be to write her out of the computer? Fix up her body or clone her a new one, and download her mind back into it. Why didn't she tell everyone? Because "spoilers".

Exactly. There's a lot more to her than has been told so far. Which leads me to believe she's going to continue appearing, even if Alex Kingston might not.

PizzaJedi81:Son of Thunder: Come on, how hard would it be to write her out of the computer? Fix up her body or clone her a new one, and download her mind back into it. Why didn't she tell everyone? Because "spoilers".

My theory on Clara was that River was going to use her as a way out of the Library. Not quite sure what I had thought, but it made sense at the time.

Alcohol may have been involved.

In the reverse-chronologic way River has of doing things, she's probably done an end-run on her own death and engineered her resurrection after the fact. Hence she's the woman in the shop who gives Clara the number to the TARDIS phone, and she exists on the scene after Clara has gone into the spinny-glowy bramblebush because what did The Doctor do to get the coordinates for Trenzalore? And being in mental contact the way she is, she only disappears because The Doctor needs her to go at that point, not because she's actually letting herself die or be erased or anything. In fact, I have a theory about River, given the hints and clues that have been dropped along the way throughout the show since she first appeared. I suspect she might be--

Like possibly River's upload somehow was able to bring in regeneration energy into the Library PC which healed the little girl/computer who somehow maintains pieces of River's personality due to the upload and grows up to turn into Clara?

Show has weakened with the departure of the Ponds. None of the stand-alone eps have been very good, except maybe the one with dinosaurs on a spaceship. I have not disliked the Clara eps, but they've only been ok.