Use of ICT by people with migrant background

IGF 2010 VILNIUS, LITHUANIA 14 SEPTEMBER 10 SESSION 109 09:00 USE OF ICT BY PEOPLE WITH MIGRANT BACKGROUND

Note: The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during Fifth Meeting of the IGF, in Vilnius. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

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>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Ladies and gentlemen, good morning to all of you and thank you for being so patient with us today. I think we have delayed a little bit our starting point because we want to make sure that we facilitate as many people as possible to come from the long cues of registration but I think it is time for kickoff. I would like to thank you for coming today to workshop 109 which is talking about the use of ICT by people with migrant background. Why have we chosen that topic? Well, ideally because we like to discuss how to protect the culture. Young people using their Internet that have a migrant background. It is a that part of the communities and in especially places like Europe where more and more immigration. That part of the community faces more difficulty and are more fragile. So to their community which they are now based. So the Internet is a great tool for getting information, for staying in contact and integrating and communicating. And on the other hand, the Internet can pose significant risk to a community that is rather fragile. I have to honour my name is Ilias Chantzos. I am the director of Government relations for Symantec. I do basically everything but Americans Symantec. And in this role I have oversight of our Government relations programmes, your engagement relations, public affairs activities across international regions. With me I have a number of panelists. Luisa Maia Goncalves. She is working within the administrative responsible for bordering administrative services. She is the director in the criminal services department. She will talk about the good practices of that take place in Portugal on the regularization of immigrants as well as some examples of good and perhaps less good use of the Internet. To my left is Malte Spitz whose focus is going to be on the interest of people with migrant background in terms of usage of Internet. He is going to talk a little bit about the challenges at school and education. Malte described his role as eloquently (Off microphone). He sits on the executive board of the Green Party in Germany. Next is Kim Sanchez and she is going to talk about how Microsoft partners with NGO and other partners. Then to my right is 'Gbenga Sesan. He is representing the NGO from Nigeria. He is going to talk a bit about how Nigeria works with companies like Microsoft in Government to address the Internet. Finally to my extreme right is Yuliya. She has a political law degree and she represents the NGO TaC Together Against Cybercrime. And she has been a key driving force in setting up this panel. In terms of my role I have the pleasure of operating here which means I have the unpleasant job of speakers sticking to their time. We will try to have each presentation take place around 15 minutes. We have allowed questions from the floor. And ideally once the presentations are completed we will have a bit of a discussion. I would encourage you to ask questions. I would encourage you to participate. From our end I will try to present you with some specific uses as to how young people use the Internet and why young children and young adults are using the Internet and perhaps also draw some interesting information when it comes to such threats. With those remarks and without any further ado Luisa, you will have the floor. (Off microphone). Thanks.

>> LUISA MAIA GONCALVES: I will start to say thanks on behalf of the Portuguese. It is a pleasure to be here and I would like to underline the importance of this event and in regard the International Organisation's involvement with the United Nations Council of Europe and the host country. I would like to start for giving an example of a system that we could consider good practices of the use of the Internet by people with migrant background in my country and then I would like to end with an example of a particular case of recruitment for trafficking human beings to Internet also of people with migrant background and how it is easy to have this kind of children or young girls that believe in everything that appears very nice and very well paid for in the Internet. First are the good things. So I would like for us to give the example of the system on the Internet that you have to regularize if you are a migrant. First I would like to give you some information about the migration in Portugal so you can understand why the system results. We were a country 40 years ago of migrants. For instance, in the'80s we had about 50,000 migrant workers in Portugal. On our present day we have about 500,000 migrants in Portugal. They are about 5 percent of our population. The great difference came on the beginning of the '80s of countries that spoke Portuguese, like Brazil and so on. So people from countries that have connections with us. But in 2000 there was a special regularization process and about 100,000 people came from Ukraine. So this is more or less the migration in Portugal. First we have the Brazilians and then the Ukraines came first and then the other African countries that came to visit us and live with us. The migration concept is changing. So we noticed that there were some migrants in a particular situation. And there was a new migration act in 2007 trying to integrate these people. The problem was it was they arrived without a visa. (Off microphone). It was not possible to have regularization because they didn't have the proper visa to enter the country. So the law came in 2007 and tried to build a system that would permit these migrants to regularize. The problem is that when the system started we had the law went out in July and there were thousands and thousands of people calling the service and everything was blocked. So we had to think of a system of how to give the opportunity to regularize the to enable the service to give the answer to that. So there were two ways of doing it. One is is that we had to approve the equipment for legal immigration by the offer in the Internet for intranet and professional training. This institute has a site with the help of the organisation and the association having all the jobs offered. And the system that is in the Internet it is so so functioning, thanks to the help of our emphasis abroad where they help people to look for the jobs that are available in this site in the Internet. But the problem was those that were already in Portugal. So after awhile the system was then like this. There was a little all the applications were done by the Internet. Plus there is an Internet system and then they will join the service. That's working also because sometimes migrants are afraid of contacting the authorities and by starting the process through the Internet they have already an idea of if it is going to be a good or a bad answer and they do it without being afraid of contacting or being expelled. So the whole system goes first through the Internet and only the end migrant goes to the service. The individual applications for the granting of a resident is presented and even the formulary is done by the Internet. If the migrant doesn't fulfill rightly the formulary then the process can't start and sometimes we find that the migrant have problems and didn't have money to have computers and some didn't know the technical details of how to do it. So we had an agreement with a lot of immigrations organisations and we gave them the computers and the technical support so they could support the migrants and fill the formularies. Even though the information is in several languages depending on the nationalities that we have there it has to be filled out in Portuguese because it is an official document. That's why we did the protocol with all the associations with the computers and also the training so they could have the migrants to fill the system. When they fill the formulary they can visit by Internet and they give the service the right to consult the databases of the Social Security and finances to see if everything is in order. After that there are a lot of Web sites helping also the service and giving information. For instance, we mentioned immigration as a service and I also mention as well the high information Net Dialogue or the NGO such as the refugee services. They have people helping to fill the whole process through the Internet. After awhile the migrant has a password that helps him to consult his own process and see what phase of which the process is in which are the doubts and if in principle there will be a positive answer or a negative answer. Then they will be notified after all the research of the databases that they give us. They will be notified to give to the service and then they still have the chance to present what the service thinks they are like and didn't have when they filled the formulary. In the end just to give you an idea last week there was a total of 60,000 applications more or less. Of those 60,000 applications most of them are people coming from Brazil which is easy to understand because people coming from Brazil they don't need a visa to enter Portugal. They can easily enter and then they become regular. Those that it is more difficult to enter, more illegal. So this is the biggest nationality. 5 percent are from India and so on. Formal applications that we receive by the Internet about 30,000 were already evaluated. 10,000 were denied and 20,000 were positive giving them residence permit. The positive of this system application via Internet and all the information. Facilitates the analysis of the individual applications and that also helps to be more fast the process and on the other hand, gives the migrant the possibility to easily consult his file without having to go to the service or to miss the job. The possibility given to migrants who personally represent their case before final decisions they can easily make a decision and the full cooperation between the migration service and the centre's office of migrant supports and then the positions of migrants. The priority is done also by immigration service with this process is that people have to present or to say they have a contract of work, a work contract and then some of them with companies that are, in fact, exploiting. Also helps stop those companies that are exploiting those immigrants. In the end I think it is a positive system and most of the migrants in Portugal, they have about 20 to 35, 36 years most of them. And more than 65 is only minority, very small since it is in a country of new migrants. Most of them don't have problems going to the Internet with this system. And also to the service that helped us to be faster and more competent because they have they give us the authorization to consult the databases of it so they don't have to present themselves more papers than they would already have by description and Social Security and so on. In the end we believe we think that there will be about 80,000 applications. We are not sure of that. About 60,000 we already receive. We think there will come more 20,000 and because we go person by definition you never know the right statistics and these help us to regularize the polling more or less one year which for a service in a country of this size of the Portugal this number is very big. Now I gave a good example of the system with ICT of migrant using it. Now I give bad example. The bad example is that traffic of human beings case. There was a site in the Internet searching for girls, young girls to be models and to perform it was said so in a movie and they would like them to speak Portuguese with a Brazilian accent. So it was directed to the Brazilian girls. Because as you know Portuguese they speak by the Brazilian but a different accent. So the advertisement on the Web it was precisely to Brazilian girls. They were young. We took notice of that because one of the girls escaped one year later more or less. The girls were recruited to which is prostitution bars in Spain. They didn't know. They gave all the information by the Internet and they were very nice and what we saw was very attractive. And for young people like the Brazilian girls in this case, it could be Portuguese that would be Brazilian. It would be easily to understand why it is the younger generation believe that everything was true because they want to be famous. By the sites they are all models and so on. So the answer they gave all information and after awhile they had an interview and they took their passports, all their documents and they were sent away to this bar. Thanks to the international corporation that also goes along with this new type of meeting these crimes with the help of the Spanish police as well after some investigation the girls were released. Even though they stayed for quite a long time being sexually exploited and almost as prisoners. The truth is that these kind of recruitment it is not an exception. It is very easy to do it. Cybercrime, it is not that different from the crimes committed, the same crime committed in old ways. In fact, the cyberspace it is a new opportunity to commit the old crimes in different ways. It is easy to commit and cheaper for the criminal. It is anonymous since the criminal has normally provided a fake identity and it is fast with only digital traces. And it although it cannot be committed by anyone, you have to have some technical knowledge so that it is difficult to follow the trace and the IP knows where it is. And then the criminal does not have to live in his own home to commit the crime but he can produce consequences in various countries simultaneous and affect many victims. We can say the Council of Europe with the cybercrime convention in force in July of 2004 has done good work. This convention helps to amortize the relation between the countries and also helps to investigate the crimes. Let me remember that the convention was open to signature in 2001 for the six country signors and then now about 26 countries have ratified it. Portugal is one of it. And what can we do more than international corporation to fight the old crimes committed by new ways? And let me say that the crimes I give you an example of trafficking of human beings, but the crimes they are being used, people they are trying to use people with migrant background are also using their accounts to transfer money, laundering money and also fake matrimonial agents to help illegal immigration, but in fact, they are doing labour expectation as well. To finish to fight this kind of traffic of human beings you set up a campaign with the basics of Traffic Council of Europe you are not for sale. That is a for stories about trafficking of human beings and also campaign in our friends in France. And they try to go to school and help young people know the dangers of the Internet and the probability of being recruited for some kind of crimes like the trafficking of human beings. For the moment the community of speaking Portuguese countries join us. They are doing the same campaign. Just to have an idea those countries are Brazil, Mozambique, Angola, and I hope I am not forgetting anyone. And we are doing the same campaign everywhere. In the end of the campaign there is a Web site and people go to the schools getting the books and showing them what sites, the dangerous Web sites, that might not be exactly what they see and things like that. Mainly focusing on trafficking of human beings but through the Internet. In the end of the sessions they are given a formal questionnaire that people answer. We have already analyzed about 40,000 questionnaires only in Portugal. Not yet in the other countries that are doing also that work and to have an idea as to the results are surprising. Very surprising. Of 14,000 people almost with we do 15 to 80 years. So people with some degree of schoolization, Portuguese and migrants. Only 6 percent of them admitted that before having the civilization action they didn't have a precise idea of what was trafficking of human beings or they never thought that they could be recruited through the Internet for these kinds of things. They were aware of the child pornography. But never thought that would lead them to exploitation or trafficking of human beings. Only 4 percent told us they knew about this possibility and this reality. Not only by Internet or mass media but mainly through the channels which was a surprise because we thought that in these ages mass media and ICTs were the main things. They are important but they have to be completed with more means to which certain ages of people. Just to finish I hope in this campaign there were some cases of young people that spoke with just saying some Web sites they have been playing, some chat rooms. Two of them for the moment lived through the opening of investigation. I thought for that it was already worse the whole campaign and the whole moving of people doing this campaign. There is a Web site that is shared by Portugal and that countries that speak Portuguese where all the information about trafficking or recruitment through the Internet is going there from all the countries and so has the results of the campaign. Just to end for the moment as I told we opened two inquiries in Portugal as a result of this campaign but if it was only one it was good and we cannot escape from this reality of the crimes committed to the new ways. Let's say that the ICT doesn't provoke more crimes. It helps yield crimes to find new ways. Anyhow we have to be aware of it and we have to pass the information to those that are more fragile, like people of migrant background. Just to end I would like to quote John Donne quoted by (Off microphone). Because I do believe that it is important that we could help even if it is only one person. "No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." Thank you. (Applause.)

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Also thank you for taking the time. So for whom the bell tolls would you like to ask the question, is there anyone? Comments? Remarks? Please. Gentleman with the bag in hand. If you could stand in front of the mic and also identify yourself.

>> Hello.

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Yes.

>> My name is John. I work for Freedom House. I have a short question. You said briefly that migrants can sign a waiver that gives access to databases. I was wondering about privacy concerns and security concerns, who has access to those databases. If it is the NGOs, if it is Government only. If you could elaborate on that.

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Before we do that the only comment I would make is Portugal has been a member of the council since '80s. A result of that I am pretty sure that Portugal is going to have a very strong (Off microphone). Just the legal part.

>> LUISA MAIA GONCALVES: You are very right, we have a very strong protection of data. When people apply for regularization they have to make proof that they have their registration of Social Security and they haven't been convicted of crimes, over one year of prison. So they have to give us the papers proving. The access to the database they give us the authorization that we can search for those details in the databases of the Social Security and of the criminal registration. That is easiest on their lives. Because otherwise they will have to go and give us the same details by paper entering the service. So in the end it is the same thing but we can only consult those databases if they give us the permission. So otherwise they will have to wait and go to the service and present the papers. Exactly what the databases say that they have. Registration there at the Social Security and they don't have criminal record registration in the justice ministry. It is not exactly a violation of privacy. It is easy to use the system and it was (Off microphone).

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Because I know a bit about European, the way it actually works is the kind of data that Luisa just describes falls in to personal data. As a result of this this data cannot be disclosed to a third party without getting the vigorous consent of the individual. Individuals have the option to query the database and then go and present to the Government that they are innocent or otherwise. And again I use the term innocent loosely. I am saying that because I am on the record, but alternatively to give permission to the relevant Government department to query on their own behalf to query the database. Being a professional in the ICT business I would turn around and say it actually removes in many ways the (Off microphone) as long as they can prove to Government that they are doing a query with the necessary authorization considering the question. So in many ways if you like without appearing being an expert in Portuguese law it is a way of authorization of making life easier. The gentleman please.

>> My name is Tokia from Nigeria. Two questions. This is a Portuguese initiative on the general level of Europe. Is this something that is walking side by side or, you know, this is private? In particular Poland has its own. Everybody does things like, and two you expect that your sites are set up in Portuguese. You have language translation tools that allow you to be able to port because the fact that say I wanted to run the same scam. I can run it in as many languages I have command of as possible. So that's what I am curious about. Thank you.

>> LUISA MAIA GONCALVES: The Web site is not in Portuguese. The Web site is in several languages. The formal area sent by the Web site it is in Portuguese. The formulary is going to integrate an official process. It has to be in the official language of the country. But the site we have Ukraine, the more we have migrant population. It is difficult for those that don't speak Portuguese. That's why we have protocols and the computers to the NGOs and migration stations they are working with us. Migrant can read the Web site and the information and to fill the formulary he has the help of people there just to do that. He won't have difficulty in filling out the form via the Internet.

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Other questions? Okay. Next presentation, please. So I guess there not my fault guys. I was told I had to bring a visual aid. That's us. (Laughter).

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: That's us. (Laughter).

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Yep. Excellent. So yep. Excellent. So I am going to good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I am going to I am going to say a few things about what is our experience in Symantec of a huge the huge use of the Internet and use of ICT. And I am going to focus let's say specifically on the use of ICT in terms of our everyday life, the way we communicate. Some of the perceptions, Internet to play, to communicate as well as some of the perceptions and the risks associated with it. So to start with pretty much everybody uses the Internet. That's one of the things that we have found in our report. The data I am going to be presenting comes from online and also report annually which is available for you at the Symantec Web site. So it is publicly available. So some of the conclusions are very important, global report which we have it is populated based on statistics for many, many countries around the world. We believe that we survey young people as I said pretty much everyone using the Internet. At the same time around about half of the adult population uses the Internet is using social networking which is again quite interesting. We are using social networks systematically but not in terms of populating information and utilizing it to put imaginary up there. 7 to 10 people are accessing lots of music, are accessing others on line and round about a quarter of everybody using the Internet again is using a (Off microphone) which is again quite astonishing in terms of the numbers that we are talking about and the amount of information which is shared. Just to give you an idea roughly it is estimated that every year the total amount of information which is being produced, total amount of data which is being produced doubles. So if this year we have got going to have 10 and next year we are going to have 20 and the year after we are going to have 40 and the year after we are going to have 80. The growth is actually staggering. Both in terms of how much this is content that goes in to services and at the same time because of content the extra amount of people. In many ways a cycle of growth, innovation, population, and further growth. What is our online behavior? It is actually quite interesting. Roughly 60 percent of adults on line have made friends this way and have an average, in fact, of more than 41 friends. Interesting countries like China, India, Brazil are more prone to make friends on line as opposed to countries like France or Japan. Still the numbers like in France and Japan are still 32 percent which is by no means insignificant. Males tend to be well, more brave perhaps in making friends on line. I don't know if I can call it brave or less smart but they do nevertheless. 56 percent of the people using the Internet have been using the Internet to reconnect with old friends. I can tell you being myself someone who moves in a country other than his own, I am Greek but I am (Off microphone) using systematically the Internet to reconnect with friends and family. So I am certainly seeing myself falling in to that particular category. Interesting though in places like Japan or China, if you have made friends online it is more likely that you will try to meet them as opposed in other places. We see some interesting statistics as well when it comes to personal romantic relations, when it comes to (Off microphone) in that report and interesting as well kids and the use of kids, the use of Internet by kids or places, let's say like Japan or Germany are less likely to go in to touchy subjects whereas, for instance, in places like India, Brazil one in every ten users send flaming e mails or again will the adults will participate in some kind of a difficult conversation whereby they will be criticizing people's comments or ideas. Dialogue on the Internet is used also to say spark heavy debate. Roughly as I said a lot of people use Internet communication but some of them use it in order to be able to connect with family and I think that's I think the whole discussion when it comes to immigration, immigrants the use of using it to stay in touch back in the homeland is particularly strong in the immigrant population. It is interesting that almost 99 percent feel satisfied with time spent with family when they are using also electronic communication means and that, in fact, two thirds believe that the Internet has improved their relationship with their family. There are people who spend more than seven hours a week on line than other families who have weaker ties. And interestingly as well most kids would use the Internet for to remain in touch with a family actually follow family rules and have a fairly good knowledge of the way to use their computers. And well, the people who are trying to use the Internet to stay in touch with the family have very much high percentage of using social networking sites than what the average is. Another area of particular interest as well is the way that kids use it and especially again whereas the data is not representative of just migrant population. (Off microphone). There will be some migrant aspects in it. And again we see primarily kids use Internet as communication. And it is interesting as well that in the number of developed countries the kids will be using things and they will spend a significant amount of time socializing. While almost half will even have made friends on line. What about the security? What about information security? What about protecting the information and the data of the different let's say youth that is on line? Well, as you see there is still some work that needs to be done in a number of countries and especially there are places that it seems to be less likely that there is a good understanding of the need for network information security. In fact, roughly globally 20 percent of the people still don't have even if their security solution is available for free and another 20 percent even if they do have security solutions they don't utilize them in running virus scans regularly. We have done a number of surveys around the world and it is interesting that in several countries in underdeveloped economies we see there is a lack of confidence in the amount of information and the personal data the way this personal data is protecting the amount of information that's online and whether this information is secure or not. Roughly 25 percent have lack of confidence. I can tell we hear a statistic about Japan 55 percent. I can tell you there are other countries in Europe which are high. I am taking Europe as an example here because Europe is supposed to have not supposed, does have one of the most stringent data protection rules when it comes to their regularization, when it comes to the spirit and the letter of the law but at the same time it doesn't mean that we have let's say seen the improvement of confidence that one would desire, purely on the fact that the law is there. Interestingly as well roughly half of the adults who have been using the Internet have experienced some kind of irreparable loss of data or some kind of security resolution. If we were to look at the evolution of the landscape, if we were to try to figure out where security is going, I think that this is probably the most (Off microphone). You need to remember and always have in mind that a few years ago back in the late '90s, beginning of 2000 security and let's say cyber attacks were all about notoriety. It was the fame. Now we see more and more the attacks are security incidents, attacks are done because they are motivated to steal information. They are trying to make money out of the Internet attacks. I think it is telling because what this diagram really shows is the amount of unique malware, unique virus that Symantec captures every year and you see an exponential growth as we move closer to 2010 with just last year having caught almost 2,900,000 and these numbers increase. Why? Because the whole idea of the attack the more unique I make the malware the more likely I will go undetected, the more likely that I will be able to compromise someone's PCs and I will be able to log on and do transactions. If we want to talk about some more additional, and again we are talking here more on the technical side of things. We are talking less about other also problems that I would describe as being social technical. For example, cyber bullying. If you look at the data, roughly an average PC can be compromised within four minutes if it doesn't have any security. Roughly 62 percent of some kids have had some negative experience online. I remember in Tokyo a statistic, a crime is committed every two and a half minutes. It takes a quarter of every second to commit a crime on line. And roughly identity is stolen. 92 percent of people are using e mail. Go and, sorry, interestingly though not all Spam is sexually related. Most Spam is some kind of fraud. 41 percent of kids have had strangers trying to tell them let's be friends and well, 65 percent of all adults have been victims of a cybercrime. So this is roughly the environment against which we are dealing with online. What are we trying to do? If I look at the work that Symantec has done, Symantec has been primarily focused on trying to educate, raise awareness both at the level of consumer as well as at the level of Government about the risks which are online which have been focusing with working with NGOs and other organisations to educating children, some of the people are, in fact, even inside this room. In terms of educating children, raising awareness at school, at the public at large, working with different Governments around the world to make sure there is an understanding of the security risks and there is an understanding of the need to educate the youth about cybercrime. On a positive note however I think that both adults and children agree that the benefits of Internet outweigh the risks, and I don't know who said that but there appears to be that a number of others would give up their cars and digital players rather than lose their Internet connection. I don't know how many of you would give up your car but apparently there are those who are prepared to do that and it is significant enough to appear in our study. So I hope that gives you a good let's say setting to continue the discussion and I will be happy to answer any questions. And I think I even stayed on time.

>> Thank you. Nirmita Narasimhan from the Council of Europe. You mentioned you had been engaged in programmes to raise awareness. You noted in your talks with users and authorities whether there is an expectation of security by people and whom does that expectation lie. Whom do citizens expect that their security online will be guaranteed.

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: That's a very good question. And perhaps I wouldn't say there is necessarily an expectation but there is an ignorance of security and perhaps ignorance is bliss. Perhaps that ignorance may present an expectation. For instance, if you are walking alone on the street in the middle of the night you don't exactly have the expectation of security that you would expect to have in your own house. In many ways the Internet is just a very big highway. But the fact that we do it from our own house or from our own office behind those doors and behind the room gives us an expectation of security. People wouldn't necessarily go and stop someone in the middle of a highway and tell them would you like us to be friends, but that's very similar to what happens if you would do it on social maps. To put matters in to more extreme which is nevertheless the true people would not expect somebody on the street to say hi, I am an embezzler and I have embezzled 10 million dollars and give me your bank account. Now is there a need to make sure there is security across the complete supply chain? Absolutely there is. I don't think first of all, an issue of education and an issue of achieving the (Off microphone) which is understanding what the environment is in which we operate and based on that then try to make sure that every part of the puzzle plays its role. There is a role for Government. There is a role for security in terms of making the tools. Other suppliers of technology and also the ISPs built and put in place the different layers of defense to make sure that the end consumer is not falling prey or victim because the Internet is based on an end to end principle which cannot be waived through the consumer to do the basic security that he needs to do. All of us understand why we have locks in our house and why we need to have doors. Even if the security industry, even if the ISCs give you the best security software, still if you don't use it properly it is not going to be able to work. So I see I take the point that there is an expectation of security. Perhaps there shouldn't be an expectation of security the way at least ignorance is generating it. And on the other hand, everyone has a role to play and I think that's why organisations and events like IGF are so useful because we get to talk about these things and we get to bring this message. It was a long answer I know. Other questions? Please. Okay. Well, if there are no other questions let's have a politician. Please.

>> MALTE SPITZ: A very warm welcome from my side and I will focus on the points of people usage by young people, especially focusing on the special needs and the problems in this field with migrants. And I'm talking about figures from Germany which are in part maybe comparable with Western European countries per the population which includes around 15 million people with a migrant background which are I think around 5 to 6 million are under the age of 35. So there is a pretty big group of young people with a migrant background in Germany. And still we only have this situation that around 66 percent of all people in Germany have access to a broadband Internet connection and at the same time we only have a few young people with migrant background who are in different fields of organisations which are maybe critical ones which are spots collapse which are patient collapses which are like social institutions and which are also like more (Off microphone) use organisations. Second problem is still the access problem. So when only 66 percent of the whole population have access to broadband Internet at the moment you can imagine that people with migrant background which are at the moment in Germany income partly in areas where you don't have so fast Internet connections still have access to broadband. But when we talk about the possibilities and the chances for young people and specifically for young people with migrant background I think we still have to focus on the literacy issue, but I think we have to focus from not only literacy for young people but we have to focus at the end for literacy for all generations. A 15 year old girl with a migrant background might lose out from use of mobile phone or use of computer but her 45 year old mother has doesn't know how to start like a computer or send an e mail. So what we had in the last 15 to 25 years which was no training the parents and the grandparents to (Off microphone) their children and grandchildren the language, I think then we have probably an opportunity to teach them both like the old people and young people and possibility the Internet and ICT showing them and for sure the present patient showed really well what are the difficulties, problems of past cybercrimes. So yeah, we have to get the information about it, yes. We have to get the practical exercises, how to field viruses on your own computer, for the test to be kind of information first. Like you know you can you have a 7th grade education. You get sexual education. You still have to get the same for media where you learn the practical informations and also see what kind of dangers are appearing. And the biggest problem at the moment which starts coming really big is still in the field of props, especially with new things like online gaming. So the same problem we had five to ten years ago with all the problems which we had with mobile music download subscriptions. So when you clicked and once you have to pay for half a year or for one year like your mobile music, it is the same problem whereas now especially in the field of online gaming. When we are talking about the digital divide which is maybe one of the background points when we are specifically focusing with people with migrant background and they (Off microphone) I think we first have to look what are the possibilities, what are the opportunities because I think there especially for people with migrant background are much bigger than for all the people because we have perhaps a possibility to step over the language barrier and certainly we have the first technology perhaps the first technical revolution where people with migrant background can participate from the beginning. Like all the past technical revolutions people with migrant backgrounds, especially young people were excluded because they didn't go to school, they didn't have the financial opportunities to participate and now we are seeing digital evolution with the usage in school and training classes and so on. We like really are the first to show an opportunity to go along with them and show them how to use these possibilities, and it is a really nice feature, that like training courses in schools for like Internet classes and so on which are mostly extra costs. They are like you can choose them and be much more connected by people with migrant background as maybe sports classes or even language classes. So I have the hope that they will seize the chances in taking this opportunity. When we look on the needs and maybe also on the problems they are facing, I see sure there is a cultural difference. As I mentioned at the beginning, especially in the family situation Internet usage isn't maybe such as common as in like I would say German families and secondly, it is also a problem of finances. So maybe we should really talk about it when we talk about how to get young people with migrant background Internet or media literate, really talking about issues like why don't if each school or each student give their own like programmes like that talk child also programmes where you really focus on young people in difficult neighborhoods where you have still high percentage of young people with migrant background, I think this would be the cheapest way to give them the access and also to show the parents how good the digital revolution can be used for their homework. For their connection with France and Germany also with the family back home. But on the other side there is also a problem, maybe it is only a problem in Germany, when you are talking about issues like privacy you still have the situation that technical revolutions, like taking fingerprints and all that stuff are first in the field of migrants. So they start with new programmes. They start with new programmes of border controls, mainly in the field of migrants. So they start to show migrants that the opportunities of the digital world can also be used. This could also be a future problem because this shows people with a migrant background coming to the European union or also coming to Germany. ICT technology is something which could be a possible threat to them because all this data collections, all this registration, (Off microphone) registration, looks like a (off microphone). This could be a problem which we have to pace. We have to show them that the ICT is mainly something good and an opportunity for them and at the risk of or maybe even the problem such that they can get afterwards thrown out of the country or appear as charges. So this is like my opportunity still the area when talking about the ICT usage in the field of migrants, especially a young migrant where the politicians have to summarize different points, showing them the possibilities of one getting the access by programmes like one (Off microphone). Secondly show them that the ICT is not used to used for them but try programmes with people with migrant background old and young to become media literate. Only when you bundle intergenerational I think that's the only chance to really reach out and get all the people. That's all. (Applause.)

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Questions. Thank you. Okay. I will take the silence that you all agree. Kim, would you like to tell us a few things about what Microsoft is doing?

>> KIM SANCHEZ: Thank you. So I will just cover kind of some of the high level statistics. I won't go in to any of the details. I think Symantec should receive a lot of credit for the really nice work that they produce with that yearly report. And I will talk about Microsoft's online safety approach and specifically the partnerships that we create with NGOs, with Governments and industry and other players to reach all kinds of communities and the immigrant communities as well. There is about a billion people online as, that's a conservative estimate, and I heard there will be another billion people coming online over the next five or so years. That's an awful lot of people that we need to reach and I think we all have a responsibility to make sure that people coming online are going to be good digital citizens. I see Dave Miles back here and he is the EMEA director for the Family Online Safety Institute and this is a big charter for them to make sure that there is education and awareness to reach the people who are already on line and who will be coming online. Over 200 million e mails circulate on a daily basis. Upwards of 98 percent of those are Spam and they are trying to do harm by trying to take your money and defraud you in some way. Kids really don't make any distinction between online and offline. It is just their world and I think that adults are moving in that direction. People are up here with their devices and are tweaking their way. It is just the world. And again I think we have a shared responsibility to make sure that we are reaching the people who need the most help. So the Internet has certainly been the landmarking of our lifetime and it has changed the way we live, we work, we learn. There are so many wonderful things about it and it is not without risks and when we think about the risk at Microsoft we categorize them. It is age inappropriate content for kids. It is prosuicide sites, probulimia sites but it is also what people are posting and sharing about themselves and people need to, especially young people really need to think about the reputation that they are posting online. We did a study earlier this year in January that showed 80 percent of hiring managers in the U.S. look at people's Facebook sites, their bogs, their personal sites to get an idea of or profile of an individual before they make a hiring decision. So we need to educate people that they need to be thinking about this and perhaps it might impact their ability to get a job or in to college or what have you. Inappropriate contact can mean cyber bullying. And we need to also make sure that people are aware of what they can do if that does happen and then the commerce we define it as hitting those e mails with the Spam, maybe it is on your mobile device, maybe it is on your computer. But it is happening to kids and they are receiving all these e mails and they are getting in a survey that was done in the U.S. by the Federal Communications Commission the largest growing the population is 29 year olds. So they are targeting young people. They may not have the awareness. So our efforts, what we do is we are a software company. We talk about things that we can do in technology, the guidance and education that we can give and our partnerships and this is all about when you trust security and policy to individuals. On the technology front we build family safety software in to our technology, like Windows 7, Windows Vista, the Xbox, the media player. So families can have the discussion of what makes sense to them. How long your children can be online and whom they can have interaction with and we think that's a really good choice. On the guidance of education front, we have Web sites. We have contacts or content. I am going to show you a little bit of that. I will give you the Web sites at the end. It is a way for consumers, for individuals to come and find out a little bit more about what issues they are concerned with and then we give them advice and I am going to hold up a couple of these cards that we have. This is called Top Tips for Internet Safety at Home. We make these things available to all the people within Microsoft. We have them in English but we don't do a have a good way of translating to Lithuanian but we hand those off and they will translate them. Obviously they are not going to file so these are things that you can easily replicate and we make available not just to Microsoft employees but to anybody who wants to use them. This is called Microsoft Online Security. It tells how to host a roundtable or discussion or some sort of event and gives you content. Actually one of the handouts. We make those available to anybody who wants to use them but also to employees and we work with Governments. And we have to spread the message and we have to scale through other organisations. We just can't so one of the things that we work with closely is law enforcement and cybercrime it is hard to it is very prevalent but very hard to stop. It is hard to identify the people who are sending out the Spam and making the attacks and even if we do identify them, it is very difficult to prosecute them. Laws are very different all over the world and law enforcement's appetite to go after these people is different. One of the things that Microsoft focuses on is helping law enforcement with their training. You have a situation that they have investigative resources to go after these people and I will talk a little bit more about that, but we also work with law enforcement to strengthen online safety and privacy laws in countries and we have a variety of resources from law enforcement where they can join and come in and talk to other law enforcement. It is only for law enforcement to come in and talk to their colleagues around the world and get then on investigations that they are pursuing. And the other thing that we really want especially with our public policy and legislative friends is trying to get online curriculum in kindergarten through 12 primary school education. We believe this is a good way to reach kids to ensure they are getting taught the skills that they need to be good digital citizens. Just a little bit more on some of our partnerships. The child exploitation and tracking system is something we developed with the Toronto, Canada, police department and is now in use in a number of countries around the world and this is really going after online pornographies. And we make this tool available to law enforcement for free and they can go in and talk to each other if they are trying to track down crimes relating to pornography and different law enforcement agencies around the world. The Council of Europe Convention on cybercrime, Luisa mentioned this, Microsoft was the first to get involved with the cybercrime convention and we hope that many more countries will adopt the convention because this will give you the tools and laws they need to go after cybercriminals. The Internet safety task force it was in the U.S. and it happened after a tragic issue which was in the news with a girl who committed suicide who was being bullied online. Working to help the cybercrime child exploitation and tracking down children who are missing. So some more positive news, so I mentioned the content earlier. Excuse me. I mentioned the content. This is a slide where you can see the content in action so to speak. We also produce these quarterly impact reports and these are just internal documents for us, but we show where people are out in the community taking this information and making use of it and what makes sense in their area. I have information on Argentina and Brazil and there is one here in Lithuania, Egypt and Europe. You can see people all around the world are very active in engaging these issues. And this is primarily where they are going to reach the key audiences in their country. So immigrant issues and making sure they are educating the people who really need it the most. I am excited that 'Gbenga is here because he is from Nigeria and he is going to talk about a partnership they did with Microsoft, but I don't know if you are going to talk about the video but they made a rap video. At Microsoft we are a technology company and we have Marsali Hancock who is with the iKeep Safe Organisation, but Marilia Maciel is translating content in to all different languages. In Chinese, wow. She has great resources and I encourage you all to talk to her but we can't do this alone. Just for an example, in Europe during our last fiscal year, 2010 which our fiscal year ended June 30 Microsoft donated over 85 million in cash and contributions to NGOs, 32 countries including 20 NGO community skills training projects that reached about five and a half million people in Europe and many of the vulnerable populations in the immigrant community who benefit from these programmes. I think we have hopefully there might be a few policymakers in this audience and I want to make sure I didn't forget them and what they can do and having that Internet safety in schools is critical to create the next digital citizens and so they know what to do to stay safe online and they got the tools. And we also think funding research on web risks and how kids use the Internet is also something that Government is doing and we also like Governments to help with Internet safety events. The last slide I had showed a couple of pictures and there were actually some Government events in there and the Governments can partner with industry to host roundtables and discussions about online safety. And I think it is important to show that the Government is applying the initiative to each its citizenry to get online safety. Lastly these are two of the Web sites where you can find our information. The first one is our citizen Web site and these are where you are going to find the report about the work that we detailed and billions of dollars that we spend in Europe and around the country and there is a great impact map there that you can see. There is also fantastic reports on digital divide issues and digital inclusion issues that Microsoft commissioned and interesting work going on there. And the second site is the protected site and consumers can go and get information about all kinds of issues. People don't typically think about Microsoft when they want to learn. We make this available so everyone else can get to it. And the last resource that I should have put up is our Twitter. It is twitter safer underscore online. So you can follow what we are doing there and we will be releasing surveys and all kinds of information. (Applause.)

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Very, very good. Very impressive. I should probably be saying yeah, Microsoft work is really very, very good on these issues. I think it is also worth noting that in a year of public policy I often find myself agreeing, incorporating with Microsoft friends and colleagues and advocating for stronger laws when it comes to cybercrimes, data protection and I am pleased to hear that Microsoft is supportive of the counsellor of Europe and I am supportive of it, too. In a previous job I used to be involved in the negotiation. It is a very good instrument to look in to and I think it is opportune to go to 'Gbenga who can give us more specifics of what he has done with companies and what he has done in Nigeria so we don't have to refer any longer to certain types of reclusites.

>> 'GBENGA SESAN: First of all, I have to answer questions about someone from Nigeria. Usually almost everyone has received an e mail from folks in Nigeria, millions of dollars in exchange for your kindness. I always say that crime goes both ways. First of all, it is maybe, you know, too trusting of anyone to take a million dollars for just helping someone loan them money but that's beside the point. I want to focus particularly on what we have done in Nigeria. I mean we don't have to ask the question why are you going to do this. First of all, the impression that comes to mind stereotyping because I am young and I am Nigerian; I am involved in cybercrime. And we have situations where in presentations like this and they have asked questions like so is it true that young people are involved in cybercrime and the reason we are doing this is in a lot of young people involved with, a lot of them are doing this because they know that first of all, the long hand of the law will not catch up with them, and as I speak with you right now there is no specific law that actually says that committing a crime online is actually a crime in Nigeria and I believe that. First of all, say I committed a crime and take you to court. Digital evidence is not permissive in court. How are you going to catch me? The only way agents when these guys commit a crime and eventually get in cash transactions then they can use that to prosecute them. Otherwise people can keep committing the crime. One of the key things is first of all, there is a lot of productive energy. That's an area I see from. Yes, I know there is a need for prosecution and a need for legal and technical. This is because of some of the work we did earlier and we find out how some of these guys focus and it was entrusted that some of them got involved the first time that people took them to public Internet cafes and showed them how to send Spam e mails. So all they need to and it is funny, I had people who said they do not know how to use a computer, but they never known how to switch off and run a computer. And guys just basically hire them and put them on computers and say fire away. And for those who love to forward e mails a lot, (Off microphone), obviously you are making your e mail address a lot more vulnerable. We are working with Microsoft and she is making my work a lot easier. The Government recently set up a new department in the press to address this. Working with EEOC. And the one of the cues, we want to retrieve (Off microphone). There is a lot of skills that negatively use this, but skills that says can be used to actually end unfortunately we do that and young persons come and say I used to be a cybercriminal and now I do this and somehow need to talk about the initially you were more concerned about because of the relevance of this. First of all, this is one of the biggest problems affecting Nigerian community. Web sites like financial transactions and what's the popular one Pay Pal. Pay Pal would never allow you to send money to Nigeria. You won't see Nigeria and that's funny because this is a country of 150 million people. Of course, because of the criminals and I said I sent e mails to people and I say I like to (Off microphone). And I forward it to them and I say by the way I am sending this because I am working on this community. Policy engagement and this is a lot easier because we are working with Microsoft and I think this is always good. As I said so far we have in legislation that addresses the issue of cybercrime. We are going to have legislation in January we lost another four years of policy engagement. All we were trying to do is get them to pass the bill. That's extra work for me. But while that is not yet possible, one of the key things universities and the fact that this used to be done by young people who have no education basically which is like you see the grammatical errors in them but right now you begin to see technically trained. Investor students who are (off microphone). And interesting of the local name for this it is very funny yahoo yahoo and I try to speak the yahoo yahoo and I say I think you need to get interested in this particular problem. Maybe because of the things in Nigeria or anybody who is in yahoo, I think really because unfortunately the next level of this which is in particular actually something now invented and called unfortunately the name was borrowed from Yahoo. Initially in Yahoo people were used to giving addresses. Basically address the issue of first of all, their alternative this is their approach to this is not the only way to send money online. For example, first experience online is to send Spam e mails. Not actually money because somebody somewhere there is not a lot of money made by this, but just like any other industry there is not a PR market. And the PR market is a sense that the guy who used to know the fellow student a few years ago suddenly buys a new car and the guy gives the impression that he made all this money from cybercrime and it is easy money. One of the key things that to do this is the fact that the language is extremely, extremely easy when it comes to communicating. I mean for the X and Y, particularly one of the key things that over the last few years that any major (Off microphone) it becomes sort of (off microphone).So we have nine of the best musicians in Nigeria and I have been accused of calling them the best or some of them the best. We have the best rapper. R&B, he is actually one of the best or one of the best. Whatever. But I call him the best. He agreed to work with us and it is enough to do the (Off microphone). Thanks to Microsoft we got money for this video and we did work with investors in Nigeria. If there is time, if I have five minutes after my presentation, I am rushing now, I will show this video. Hopefully my sound will work. One of the things that we also did was actually appoint some ambassadors, Microsoft privacy initiative for Nigeria and the idea was because they were in different areas of Nigeria they could go back to their own countries and speak the language. In terms of English but in terms of message, guys I have done this and it is online and also do the concept we are trying to borrow is in terms of peer pressure is definitely the key. Positive peer pressure and very particular way, next youth, mass media workshop is young I want you to listen to someone but the concerts were in such a way that the MIs but in between the songs, somebody would come to talk to cybercrime. And for the last one, which is to be called because of elections we had someone send us to work (Off microphone). School seminars like I said earlier, universities and we are looking particularly at also second countries because a lot of them are using Internet and computers for the first time. Only notice how to make money online legally. October first (Off microphone) and cybercrime across the region because there is recent discussion in West Africa. Like I mentioned earlier destination and the idea is in the next few years, make online businesses then become authentic voices of this country. If you go to Youtube and I will probably because I think I spent enough time. So I will show the video.

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Let's make sure there is questions asked.

>> 'GBENGA SESAN: No problem. At the end. Basically the idea is to have them tell their own stories and one of the (Off microphone) in terms of ICTs and now this guy is in (Off microphone). They have told their stories of how they used to be and how and come and improve their lives. These people can tell their stories and sort of become role models to younger people who are still thinking. Like I said people we are not looking at who is establishing as a count already. The next generation, it is sort of to use Internet, at least maybe make the Internet a lot more safe. The idea is to share the experience and, of course, when this becomes a huge success and already I see signs of that export to other places, we will send people from Burkina Faso and like I said (Off microphone).

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Very impressive. (Applause.)

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: I like and love the example of I don't know how to use the Internet but I know how to send Spam e mails. I never learned how to drive but I drove the car to the bank. Questions to Kim and 'Gbenga?

>> Hi. I am Priscilla from New York. I have two questions for 'Gbenga. The question for Kim it is about one is about the initiative, use of IP. So we had some information about this initiative on Microsoft's Web site and Wiki Web site but it is very hard to get any follow up on what's the state of this study. We know it is open to techies to bring their own knowledge and improve this system. Like this creation of I was wondering if you had any updates from Microsoft. A more effective. We had information about this initiative. Digital safety issues (having technical difficulties, sorry).

>> KIM SANCHEZ: I don't have an update on that but we can talk afterwards.

>> Priscilla: And my second question is you mention several countries when you were (off microphone) that might not be the case in Kenya. Is it mainly through the before going and translating the digital safety tips that we work in regions world but not (Off microphone). Sorry, maybe should I ask the question now and my question is basically the same, is there any data that would be available to NGOs like UNICEF about the use of ICT to Nigerians and is it mainly PC or is it use of Internet through phone? Thank you.

>> 'GBENGA SESAN: So we do ask our Microsoft fields employees throughout the world what are the issues that are of most concern for you. Because they are very different all over the world and that does help to influence the content that we make. So, for example, Internet cafes are very popular in certain parts of the world but less so in other parts of the world. So we will keep our advice geared very generally speaking for people. So something like the Top Tips of Internet Safety at Work, I think these are used globally. Things like to defend your computer. It is important to have automatic updates turned on. I think that's a global reference no matter where you are. Some of our work is very, very high level and generic. It is think before you share. Think before you click. Use strong passwords. It is things like that we can tailor and really could be used anywhere, but then when we want to get specific about issues we go out to the field, the Microsoft field and say what are you dealing with that you need help with and then we will come up with content that will help that. We do very high level. So yeah. So the Web site that I showed you the Microsoft.com/protect site, up in the right hand corner there will be a little icon that will take you to different country sites that they have localized. So I know it is available in French and in German and Spanish and I can't remember all the different languages. I think it is in 32 different countries. And I can show you that afterwards. Key things, one is data, I wish I could tell you where to get the data, but unfortunately at the moment we don't have like a place where you can get that. Fortunately I was doing a recent study and I got asked questions and the assumption has been access using mobile phones than PCs. 3 million and now 46 million and I suspect that over 70 million by the time we check in the next (Off microphone). That's simply because we caught over 86 million with mobile phones. When it comes to PCs the latest data which we have from 2003 and it was about 17 percent of PCs but I wouldn't expect data publicly. In terms of risks beyond Spam and we did a recent study on the digital lives of connecting Nigerians and one of the key things we saw beyond Spam, a lot more people I believe spend time online because there is one part of life (Off microphone) and some of them use the Web to do things at night and when they get to work in the morning productivity is extremely low. There is a lot going on in software. There is a lot going on in the family. Unfortunately don't know why. Most people have (Off microphone). But I mean this is what I consider more media attention. I think because the (Off microphone).

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: If you look at the way that every country gets connected the nature of the security challenge very much depends on that. If you look at the African countries the broadband connection is not from landlines. Then you are going to have SMS Spam

>> This is a question for Ms. Sanchez. Do you find examples of similar partnerships true across the board? Is it happening with other actors? Do you find that true across jurisdictions, across borders? How do these partnerships cooperate with each other? Is there any cooperation in place? If not, is there a need for an international commitment for these partnerships to work together? Thank you.

>> KIM SANCHEZ: Thank you. That was an interesting question. I don't know about the I know all of industry works very closely with all kinds of different governments, NGOs. I can't speak for other industries but it is something that Microsoft does throughout the world and where if the body is based in Brussels or Washington D.C. then we work with them there, but I know our local communities also work very closely with the governments in place or other entities but an international group I don't know. I think that's an interesting concept but I also worry about the effectiveness of something like that because I think once you get a really large body with all kinds of entities involved you kind of sometimes get some gridlock and nothing really happens. So I don't know.

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: The only thing I would say from my Brussels experience is that you might see supranational within the EU environment. There is a high degree of coordination. You may see some activities. We make content also available in Northern online. We cooperate with NGOs across the world but there is no specific body that globally coordinates that. It is a question also of how you are talking (Off microphone). So yes, we have seen coordination among countries within the

>> KIM SANCHEZ: I want to add something. I would say the industry cooperates and works together 99.9 percent of the time. We compete in the marketplace but we usually agree.

>> It is not a question but a comment. Janice Richardson here and I coordinate the safe initiative. We coordinate this and we have 65 countries registered and this commits us because we have the contact point with NGOs, with governments in all of these countries. It does commit us to have some form of coordination all yearlong. The other thing I was going to say is that we were very surprised we put out any safety initiative which I think most of you know and we have been amazed to see that things can travel world wide and simply be translated in the name of the children changed but it is working. And for me I never believed that you could take one resource for kids and their parents and it could simply be translated and go from Egypt to Australia to other countries. Thank you.

>> KIM SANCHEZ: That's great and we support Safer Internet Day.

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Thank you for that remark. Yuliya, I would like to say is there any other questions? We are scoring well on that.

>> Just a quick addition to (technical difficulties).

>> KIM SANCHEZ: And it is Internet addiction.

>> YULIYA MORENETS: We have privacy issues. Every day you get maybe an average of three SMSs where you are wondering where did they get my number from. You know you didn't feed it. People are getting they buy from providers and share numbers. Give up their contacts. We need to market that. More popular in country. People are willing to push things out as much as possible. So we again ask where is where do we develop these standards that guide the framework around privacy, especially about phones. You know, and in the last two, three years high incident of kidnaps, security concepts and mobile phone is criticality in on these crimes. These are things that used to happen before with our technology. Like I was saying technology right now was helping achieve this. Thank you.

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: I suggest we group the question. You ask your question as well and okay. Thank you.

>> (Off microphone).

>> (Off microphone).

>> (Off microphone). Some parents more or less aware of the dangers of the Internet. So my children used to say parents of my children, they have the kind of POS when they are e mailing to get friends. And POS means my father is here. My mother is here. So POS, parent over my shoulder and we speak Portuguese, not English but still with POS all the children know supposedly all over now I can't say everything. The phones, the mobile phones, of course, parents are more or less aware of the dangers of the Internet. Youth can have it everywhere and there won't be a parent over your shoulder and the dangers and using it might be more risky. And when we speak of ICT generally we speak more of Internet, computer or something bigger and we are not working in the new ways of using the Internet. And that's something even in the industry and so on. For those who think of programmes adapted to this reality. About the people, the migrants I think sometimes before using ICT there is a first step of teaching and prevention and all of that. Because before using ICT, especially people aren't moving they don't have the immediate access to ICT. So there is a whole culture of the training and formation of young migrant people; on different ways, not by ICT but how to teach to use in the right ways ICT. So especially to migrants I don't think that all the information should be provided only by ICT and Internet but it should be completed with other kinds of tools as well.

>> KIM SANCHEZ: I would comment that the issues you raise with mobile phone, I don't think the guidance would be any different in the sense that you are still teaching. I think like Luisa was saying, the mobile PC or gaming device, a lot of kids have PSPs, things that connect to the Internet and it is the Internet in their pocket and I think it is the same guidance when they are you have to meet those communities where it makes sense for them and what's comfortable for them.

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: A comment I would make because of the time, on the question about purposing, every purpose is standard for countries local. In the case of European union of the block of country, you will have different privacy regimes. You will have a different privacy regime in EU and in the U.S. and all of these regimes interact with each other. Some may be more stringent and some a little less. The reality is that the framework is becoming more and more mobile. Your comments about the usage of ICT by migrant communities I would agree with the point that was made that effectively we see more and more convergence of devices. Whether we talk about mobile phones or PC or a gaming device, the advice would probably be pretty much the same. The only comment I would make you want such devices and such technology to be available, to be cheap because and to be used by those communities because like that you are in a position for them to communicate more effectively and hopefully to use that technology to integrate even more. Otherwise they carry even more risk of being a ghetto in a community. Yuliya, I know you want a couple of minutes and want to sum up and beat it up afterwards.

>> YULIYA MORENETS: I would like to (Off microphone). We would like to launch, sorry. So the it is the how to command the cybersecurity culture and people with migrant background. For example, it is a big part of information. I would have 12 to 15 percent of the population of migrant background. And it is a lot. We need to integrate and develop these cybersecurity culture say and we would like to start with the young people. So we launched in September this study with the University of Strasbourg and we would like the young people in France to use the ICT, and with the cooperation of as I said with the University of Strasbourg we will use the (Off microphone) approach and cross both to have results in the academic sense. And I hope then by 2011 and we still look for work on co operation. The second point it is we start to work with the young people with migrant backgrounds and schools in difficult areas and to make and the point is really not to be teacher and student. It is to make the young people, to make them much effective and to be at the centre of this cybersecurity culture and to use the opportunity to develop this cybersecurity culture. And it works it worked good. So these schools, they call us and they are very happy. They see the need and why we start to work in these difficult areas? Because when we discussed with the directors of the school they have the case of fraud or forgery coming from young people. They have skills and opportunity for them and to use them after in their professional lives. We also try to develop the strengths where we send it and try to (Off microphone) to do in Nigeria and we showed your show. And we would like to translate it in to French. We don't get (Off microphone). And just in the last line we would like to try and develop the simulation of meetings, like IGF meetings.

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Any questions? Well, as we are on our way (Off microphone). It is okay. 'Gbenga?

>> 'GBENGA SESAN: I would like to show the video. (Showing of video).

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Any questions? (Applause.)

>> ILIAS CHANTZOS: Any questions? (Music). Well, as we are on our way you want to summarize? That's okay. (Off microphone).