Originally posted by CerebusNot sure what list you were looking at cause I see Marvin Gaye and Aretha Franklin both in the top ten. Then you got Otis Redding, Martha and the Vandellas, Smokey Robinson, Little Richard, The Ronettes, and Tina Turner all in the top 50 who you can always find in the R&B/Hip Hop section of you local music store.

It says this is the secound 'Top 500' list, does anyone have a link to the first one? I wouldn't mind seeing what's changed.

It's pretty sad when the only songs listed for the last five years are Eminem's STAN (#290) and LOSE YOURSELF (#166) and Outkast's HEY YA! (#180) which are all (c)rap.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that Marvin Gaye and Aretha Franklin are in the top 10. But Hip Hop or Rap they are not. Nor are Ray Charles, Tina Turner, etc. Highly influential R&B - yes. Hip hop or rap - no.

And I think it's a bit disappointing to ignore one of the more innovative genre's to develop in the last 30 years. SOMETHING should have made the top 20.

But I agree with your take on Eminem.

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Originally posted by CerebusIt's pretty sad when the only songs listed for the last five years are Eminem's STAN (#290) and LOSE YOURSELF (#166) and Outkast's HEY YA! (#180) which are all (c)rap.

"Hey Ya!" is not a rap song by any stretch of the imagination. That may well be the genre Outkast usually records, but that track was anything but.

"If two groups are locked in argument, one maintaining that 2+2=4, and the other claiming that 2+2=6, sure enough, someone will walk in and settle on 2+2=5, denouncing both groups as extremists."-----Dr. Madsen Pirie

Originally posted by NagAnd I take issue with the anthem for Commintern at number 3.

Comintern? "Draped in the Hammer and Sickle"? Say what you will about it being a song celebrating a kind of utopian socialism, but I hardly think John Lennon was sitting there thinking, "Soviet Communism is the solution!" I don't think his idea was to celebrate an all-too-obvious form of iron tyranny; Lennon couldn't have loved Leninism. And the military aggression of the Hammer and Sickle turned him off too. But, lord, just because it's socialist doesn't make "Imagine" the anthem of some "Rooskie Commyooniss!"

(edited by Jeb Tennyson Lund on 30.11.04 1929)

After all, everyone knows the most commie Beatles song is "Back in the USSR"

A list is a list is a list. I disagree with some of it, but it's really hard to argue so many great songs. I thought U2 and (especially) Pearl Jam got under-represented, but hey, that's just my opinion.

p.s. Nirvana sucks.

You know, first of all, we are doing this for her, okay? Because neither one of us wants to get divorced. And second-of-ly, I know you're the big marriage expert... Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. Your wife is dead.

[laughs][beat]

...I'm sorry, that was 100% inappropriate, and I do apologize profusely...I'm...oh...

After going over the list in full, I can't help but notice some horrible oversites. There's no Genesis, no Kiss, no Rush, no Kansas, no Yes, no Monkees, no Bad Company, no Frank Zappa, no Grateful Dead, no Cars, no Pearl Jam, no Van Halen... none of these artists or groups have a song on the top 500 songs list.

How is this possible?

Oh yeah, the other top 500 list they did was the 500 albums list. Here's the top 50 from that...

Is there no "American Pie" on that list? Did I miss it? What did Don McLean do to piss of the music world, other than that little "overplayed" thing? I know Madonna urinated on it, but...still...ah well.

And no Van Halen's kinda suspicious as well, but not AS suspicious. You'd think that the (arguably) greatest guitarist of all time would be involved in at least ONE of the top 500 songs of all time.

Originally posted by Joseph RyderAnd no Van Halen's kinda suspicious as well, but not AS suspicious. You'd think that the (arguably) greatest guitarist of all time would be involved in at least ONE of the top 500 songs of all time.

He is, as the guitarist in Michael Jackson's "Beat It", #337.

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Wow, 20 songs from teh last 20 years crack the all-time top 500? Is Rolling Stone run by a bunch of complete old fogeys? Maybe you can make the arguement that older music is better, but that is kind of ridiculous. Then again, it's a list, so to each his own!

Originally posted by BigSteveWow, 20 songs from teh last 20 years crack the all-time top 500? Is Rolling Stone run by a bunch of complete old fogeys? Maybe you can make the arguement that older music is better, but that is kind of ridiculous. Then again, it's a list, so to each his own!

Well, when Love Shack is one of them, I wonder. I am all for Rock Lobster, but Love Shack....oy.

500 songs, and heavens to murgatroid even, no Styx, Talking Heads, Heart, Kansas, Genesis, Phil Collins, Moody Blues, or ELO. I think they could have left off a few songs from some of the way oft-listed artists (Dylan, Drifters, Beatles, Beach Boys, et al), and gotten some more great songs by other artists.

I know we could sit around for quite some time debating a list that puts Bohemian Rhapsody only two spots above Fast Car...are these songs that close? Do people start flailing their heads around in the car at the same exact time when Fast Cars is blaring?

Bohemian Rhapsody is more liked for the novelty of the song itself, as you mentioned (the banging of heads in the car, etctera). So I don't have as much of a problem with it being two spots above "Fast Car."

What really bothers me is that these are, for the most part, mostly radio singles. It's almost like the writers at Rolling Stone just watched VH1 Classic for a month and determined what songs they liked best from that. Then again, it's all a matter of taste, as if I had to put a Dylan song on top, it'd probably be "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands," and most people would (and will) probably laugh at me for such a suggestion.

Originally posted by Deputy MarshallWhat really bothers me is that these are, for the most part, mostly radio singles. It's almost like the writers at Rolling Stone just watched VH1 Classic for a month and determined what songs they liked best from that. Then again, it's all a matter of taste, as if I had to put a Dylan song on top, it'd probably be "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands," and most people would (and will) probably laugh at me for such a suggestion.

Lists like these just shouldn't be attempted.

(edited by Deputy Marshall on 3.12.04 1548)

To be fair, it wasn't RS writers who compiled the list. I agree, that would be horrendously stupid and worthless. While they only name a couple names, they state that the list was compiled from the votes of 172 music industry types. Singers, songwriters, critics, producers, blah blah blah. Maybe an RS writer or two got in as a critic, but I doubt much more than that.

I mean, if SPIN put out a similar list, I'd expect nothing less than 20 of their writers coming together to tell me why all mainstream, radio-friendly songs suck and trying to outdo each other in the game of "can I make a list of 500 songs no one's ever heard of? And be real snotty about it in the process?"

The point that RS got 172 industry types to compile this list is an important one, because our qualms with the rankings aren't so much with Rolling Stone's judgements, but with the judgements of the music industry itself.

I, for one, agree with those who sigh in resignation at seeing Nirvana near the top of this list. They get credit for starting a movement that they were only a part of. They didn't kill the L.A. party hair bands, Metallica did with their video for One. They didn't bring Seattle Grunge to the mainstream. Pearl Jam did (Ten was released a month before Nevermind).

For whatever reason, Nirvana gets all the credit and is held up as changing the world. It's too bad.

I don't think Nirvana necessarily gets the credit; but they were the standard bearers for the alternative movement.

Why? Ten might have come out before Nevermind, and I think Soundgarden's Badmotorfinger beat them both that year, but Nevermind had "Smells Like Teen Spirit" which is to this day the most improbable number 1 track in the history of the music industry. This "grunge" thing came out of nowhere; none of the industry types saw it coming; suddenly, there was this song at number 1 that was more punk than anything else and sung by a band that looked like they'd never left the garage. And the kids were buying the records.

Soundgarden would have made it anyway; there was enough Sabbath in their sound for them to get the metal tag. Alice in Chains was a metal band when they started. Same with Pearl Jam, as they were the modern reinterpretation of arena rock (think Aerosmith). And no matter how many times you saw the video for Jeremy, Pearl Jam didn't chart until 1994. Soundgarden didn't until long after that.

I was snobby enough at the time to see Nirvana as a poor-man's Pixies. I still bought Nevermind and wore it out. But the Pixies never really made it. Nirvana did. And I can't hold it against them.

As for Metallica's video for One killing the hairbands, that's utter tripe. That video came out in 1988. Poison's "Every Rose has its Thorn" was the last number 1 single of 1988. Warrant was still charting regularly in 1991. If anything, Metallica's One video killed "real" metal: it was the pinnacle of the 8 minute metal-symphony.

The album after One was "The Black Album". You know, the one where they totally sold out? I think it was clear that Metallica were done with what they were doing as much as anyone else was. If the Black Album had hit 6 months earlier, they might have been the standard-bearers. I don't think so, though; Nevermind was a much better album...

/tarnish...

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I was actually pleasantly surprised by this list, there's usually such a present time bias but it looked like they put some thought into it even & took staying power into consideration... I was Shocked not a single Pearl Jam song made the list. I'm surprised they put in F the Police from NWA. Three Simon & Garfunkel songs but not Mrs. Robinson, even though I agree "Bridge over troubled water" is their best song.

Originally posted by Joseph RyderIs there no "American Pie" on that list? Did I miss it? What did Don McLean do to piss of the music world, other than that little "overplayed" thing? I know Madonna urinated on it, but...still...ah well.

I think you might be onto something, Madonna version could have ruined that song beyond repair. I think McLean version certainly deserves to be on this list.

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