Rape of woman in skinny jeans 'not possible'

When a woman struggles to get up she is communicating that she isn't interested in having sex, she is communicating that she is trying to get away
from you.

Apparently to pick up on this requires magical powers of observation.

There are alot of people on this thread assuming that she was acting like
a slut. Some people generally do not know what "come in for coffee" means; to some it actually means coffee. This guy was dumped by a mutual friend
and she claims she was there to console him. If he needed to be consoled she may not even suspect he's after sex because he's supposed to be
heartbroken thinking about his ex girlfriend.

I'm not saying that women shouldn't take responsibility for their actions, but it's high time that men started taking responsibility for theirs.

I take responsibilty for my actions but I'm a grown woman and.. well have been for a while. Many 18 year old girls do not know how to be
responsible for their own safety and would not realise the risks involved in just having a drink with a stanger. This guy wasn't even a stranger.

It is culturally acceptable.. even laughed at to get a woman drunk in order to have sex with her. I believe this is where alot of the the problem lies
as the lines have already been blurred between rape and sexual coersion.

Man acquitted in skinny-jean rape case loses appeal for costs

Bellinda Kontominas Courts
May 5, 2010

THE jury was not convinced beyond reasonable doubt that Nicholas Gonzalez raped a woman who had been wearing skinny jeans. But the District Court
judge, Penelope Hock, yesterday described as ''compelling'', medical evidence suggesting the 24-year-old woman had been sexually assaulted. Mr
Gonzalez, 23, was on Friday acquitted of having vaginal and anal intercourse without the consent of the woman on April 9, 2008.

The controversial case caused a furore among victims' groups and bloggers worldwide after one member of the jury wrote a note to the judge doubting
whether skinny jeans ''can be removed without any sort of collaboration''. Mr Gonzalez made an application on Monday for his legal costs to be
paid by the state, arguing that it would have been ''unreasonable'' for the Director of Public Prosecutions to pursue the case if it had known all
the evidence when he was committed to stand trial.

But yesterday Judge Hock dismissed the application.

During the trial the woman said she had followed Mr Gonzalez to his room where he had played the drums before pushing her onto the bed, ripping off
her skinny jeans and raping her.

The counsel representing Mr Gonzalez, Paul Hogan, argued that she had not been a credible or reliable witness during the trial; that she had
exaggerated the level of her studies and that she had made up the story about the drum to provide a reason for going up to his room that did not
include her desire to have sex.

He argued the woman had been a ''fantasist'' who had lied about the alleged rape to explain why she had had sex with her friend's
ex-boyfriend.

But in considering whether to grant Mr Gonzalez's application regarding his legal costs, Judge Hock found that any inconsistencies between evidence
of the woman and other witnesses had been generally about ''peripheral matters''. Dr Rosemary Isaacs, who examined the complainant on April 10,
2008, had found ''evidence of trauma'' around her genital region. ''In my view Dr Isaacs's evidence was compelling, particularly in relation to
(the allegation of anal intercourse),'' Judge Hock said, adding that such evidence had been available at the time the proceedings were started.
Accordingly it was not unreasonable for the prosecution to have taken the matter to trial.

So she had trauma (tearing) to both her vagina and anus yet the jury decides she was there for a good time? Even if she did take off her jeans those
injuries should still be considered evidence of rape. This really makes no sense.

I said I wasent going to respond to this thread no more but I thought of something thats fullprof in how to eliminate this issue. How about us males
before sex so none will be confused with these ditzy females and there issues of love in sex with anybody we dont usually have sex with ie
girlfriend/whatever. Before they can change there minds the next day, males should be required by law to get a signed consent and a video record of
the consent from a cellphone or camera, of the female saying she wants sex. Make it a law

On second thought this exists already it's called
being in a porno, its everywere on the internet.

Guess that didn't work out to good, yup males are doomed, doomed I tellz ya, to try to guess whether the creature that came home with them and is
dressed like she wants attention of the physical kind, and is not so very good at expressing what they want because apparently going in a mans home
on his bed dressed like a slut is in no way shape or form any means of a implication that they would want sex or that they might regret it the next
day because they still dont know why they are there in his room other then to hear the drums, or possibly to see his collection of mint gi joe action
figures.

Still this sittuation should be avoided or wait thill she actually says lets have sex, instead of this body language stuff it's flawed. I wonder if
you get a 21 yr old male and a female that are attracted to eachother in the same room and both want sex. How long will it take the female to actualy
say she wants to have sex, with words. A rare event this is someone that knows what they want, anyway my guess is not in your lifetime will this
happen, what would happen if the male does not take a guess and go ahead, no sex shall happen in such an encounter. And most likely she would think
you dont like her. Ohh well anyways on thinking abouth it this kind of rape is really miscommunication by the female for not saying anything if she
said something beforehand then its rape, unless you think guys are jedy mind readers or something, And its the fault of the guy for getting involved
with such a misconception, if your a player there a plenty of females that are down wit the one night stand thing, it shouldn't be hard to find one
that wants what you want. sex.

It's still better to do as others on this post implied save it for another day that way if it's just a sex thing, then that other day most likely
might not come around. If it's more then sex then it probably will. I can see now how it might be easier for a rapist to get some, then a dude just
looking for a possible relationship. Females really have no clue what they want, they just wait around for something or someone to happen, and since
any possible dude looking for relationship would have to go through lots of red tape and actually deal with a female its going to be a slow and
painful process. A rapist on the other hand can just say what she wants to hear and he is in, wouldn't even need drugs just the right moment and the
right words and to disappear into the mist of civilisation the next day without a trace, no need to even silence the victim because she is so easy
to manipulate. A final word of advice for those females that are confused. Dont be a tool, or a toolshed. And I know what your thinking well mr
galadofwarthethird we alwredy know that and your an idiot. Ok whatever, but ill tell you the meaning of those words as well. A tool is something
everybody uses. A toolshed is something everybody puts there tool in.

So she had trauma (tearing) to both her vagina and anus yet the jury decides she was there for a good time? Even if she did take off her jeans those
injuries should still be considered evidence of rape. This really makes no sense.

Probably not now that they have released more evidence details to the media. I hope she can though. I can't believe something as trivial as a pair of
jeans could trump genital trauma as evidence. I always thought that they took aggrevated rapes seriously at least.

..well seriously as a form of rape. We all know that rapists only get a couple of months behind bars anyway (with the exception of the sydney race
rapes).

To Riley and everyone. I would rather kill the rapist, or subdue them and then rip every appendage from their bodies starting w/ genitals and be
charged w/ torture, than to let the predator walk free or spend only a few months in prison which only reinforces rapist mentality that they are
unstoppable and all powerful. When is women's rights, Feminists, Womynists etc.. going to come together and demand harsher penalty and punishments
for these jackasses, instead of letting them terrorize the opposite sex and often the same sex? Rapists are Terrorists, plain and simple, look up the
word terrorist and it gives definitions that apply to rapists and childmolesters. They create terror and panic, a sense of fear etc... We all need to
stop worrying about threats outside the country and blaming misdemeanors are acts of terrorism, and look at real problems and threats, such as
Rapists, Pedophiles, Animal abusers, and gangs. Girls that are mute, or def cannot speak or scream to tell the predator to stop, but the rapists
knows what he's doing is wrong and evil, but goes ahead and does it anyway, and anyone who says that just because they didnt say to stop more than 50
times meant she wanted it, should have their testicles busted w/ a claw-hammer and then recircumsized w/ a carpenter's tool known as a Cat's-Paw!
People need to stop patting Rapists on the back. Its like they’re hero-worshipped these days. Even women in their own homes in bed asleep wont say
STOP I DONT WANT TO for the simple fact that she's asleep, and what if he gags her? She wont be able tp speak or communicate verbally, but we ALL
KNOW she doesn’t want it. Show those of you that say you have to speak in a language you can understand for you to stop forcing yourself on a woman
or girl, you should all be investigated as sex-offenders yourself, what if she speaks a different language? What then DipSh_, you KNOW by looking at
her, seeing her physical and facial responses is enough, or are all rapists STUPID f-ing idiots that have no brains and no real courage, nor do they
have what it takes to get consensual sex apparently. A penis should not be a feared hated weapon, and breast and vagina should not be worthless
objects. The jury of this case along with the Judge are a bunch of Sex-offender sympathizers, either that or they lack the brains or will to
acknowledge the evidence provided. They’d rather let a monster walk free than to spend some effort dealing JUSTICE! There is no Justice anymore,
just stupidity. Just Laws without meaning. The innocent are punished while the guilty are pampered. No wonder there is so much crime! No one wants
to punish misdeeds or actual crime, the punishments are null and void. Not exactly enough to keep people from committing felonies if all they get is a
slap on the wrist. This is why. There’s no more death-penalty, the prisons are overcrowded, and the prisoners get treated more like royalty, prison
is not a rehab center, its Prison, its SUPPOSED to be Punishment, NOT Encouragement. Going to prison now is like a trip to the spa! The cops don’t
do their jobs anymore, our government and our Presidents, dont do theirs, they ignore things that need changed for the better, they'd rather focus on
something that does NOT Need changed and they change it for the worse! God i really do hope the human race wises up or dies out, its a species that
has nothing to contribute to existence except to destroy it. Does anyone even realize what stuff like this really does? To have crime and no
punishment for it? Its creates chaos and destruction of all good things. Justice Herself has been Raped so many times that she's committed suicide
apparently! We need real Judges, and Jurors, we need real cops and law-enforcement, we need a real leader and leaders. Not stupid asinine bullsh_
like this!

once again in capital letters. NO ONE IS SAYING RAPISTS SHOULD GO UNPUNISHED, EVEN KILLED BUT MAKE SURE THEY COMITED THE CRIME AND ARE GUILTY BEFORE
YOU DO THAT. thats what this is about not that rapists are bad we know that, make sure they did the crime before they do the time. False implications
have happened before look up this one I was reading in google. Texan who died in prisoncleared of rapeconviction - CNN.com theres a couple of
versions of this story online each give basically the same info.

'Timothy Cole was convicted and sentenced to 25 years in prison for the 1985 rape of 20-year-old Michele Mallin. He maintained his innocence, but it
was not confirmed by DNA until years after his 1999 death, when another inmate confessed to the rape.'

Apparently this girl was in a parking lot going to her car, were the rapist got her in a choke hold with a knife to her face and drove to the
outskirts of town and raped her. Then the next day police showed her pictures of people and she chose the guy that died in prison one Timothy Cole got
picked from pictures and a police line up by her as being the rapist.

Then after he died in prison of asthma complication, the rapist Johnson sends him letters this is what one basically says.

It was 2007 when a letter addressed to Cole arrived at his family's home, written by Johnson. Read the letter »"You may recall my name from your
1986 rape trial in Lubbock," says the letter, dated May 11, 2007. "Your Lubbock attorney, Mike Brown, tried to show I committed the rape."I have
been trying to locate you since 1995 to tell you I wish to confess I did in fact commit the rape Lubbock wrongly convicted you of. It is very possible
that through a written confession from me and DNA testing, you can finally have your name cleared of the rape ... if this letter reaches you, please
contact me by writing so that we can arrange to take the steps to get the process started. Whatever it takes, I will do it."

So basically she picked picked the wrong guy from the posible rapists that there were at the time, and the inocent mans attorney tried to say this
johnson did it but apparently no one listened because she picked someone alse from a line up. So after he died in prison and there was some dna to
prove that another man did it, they get this guy's letter. Johnson confeses that he did it.

And it depends on individual cases/states what the time you do in prison but it's not a slap on the wrist. Timothy Cole served aboth close to 20
years in prison from what I could gather before he died of asthma complication's, But this was in texas hes lucky he dident get the death penalty, or
most likely they dident have enough on him to give him the death penalty. Rape is not a slap on the wrist.

theres lots of stories abouth this case
online and others like it, And theres others abouth real rapists and everything in between. look them up, if your interested.

Here's a thought, could it be at all possible that this man keeps
his drums in his bedroom as a way to get women in his room ?

...uhh, yeah? Did that just now occur to you?

And he's probably had sex with a dozen other women by telling them "hey let's back to my place and listen to music." And probably all of them
understood what was going on.

I mean really if a woman were struggling to get out from under
you would you honestly believe that she wanted to have sex with you ?

Me personally? No. But I've known girls who like to claw and scratch a bite and draw blood during sex. I've known girls who scream a lot, and
shudder and shake to the point of it actually being difficult. Some...so much so that I couldn't deal with it and lost interest in them sexually.

All I'm saying is that there is totally enough room for miscommunication to happen.

When a woman struggles to get up she is communicating that she isn't interested in having sex, she is communicating that she is trying to get away
from you.

And when a guy says "hey, let's go back to my place, go to my bedroom and make some music" he is trying to communicate that he wants to have sex
with you. And if you say "Wow! That's sounds great!" and follow him to his bedroom, he will be completely and totally expecting that sex is the
next thing that happens.

Like I've said. This is a communications issue. If you ladies misinterpret "hey, come to my bedroom" as meaning anything other than "let's have
sex" then you shouldn't be terribly surprised when a man misinterprets your screams of terror as screams of ecstasy.

I can't be the only person in this thread who understand this. Like I said a couple pages ago, I have personally been in a situation where a
girl screamed and I stopped thrusting because I thought something was wrong. Through her gurgled attempts at speaking she managed to get out "No,
don't stop!" which to my ears sounded like "No!" "Don't!" "Stop!" and totally killed the mood and left me holding and comforting her while
she was shaking from aching, unfulfilled horniness.

Given that experience it is so easy for me to beleive that somebody in the world has had the reverse happen, with a woman shaking in terror and
screaming "Don't! Stop!" and the guy thinking she was screaming "Don't stop!" and that all her convulsions were merely her being really into
it.

You're right. Rape is not just sometimes wrong. But I think we disagree over what qualifies as rape. To me...if a guy clubs you over the head, drags
you into an alley and duct tapes your mouth so you can't scream while he has his way with you...that's rape. If he slips something into your drink
to knock you unconscious and you wake up wondering why you're naked...that's rape.

But if two people misread each other's non-verbal signals and a guy screws a girl who is so internally locked up that she can't and doesn't say
"No. Stop." that's not rape. It's a miscommunication with unfortunate results. He may be insensitive and self-absorbed to not be able to
intuit what she really wants. But he's not a rapist.

Yes, there are men who rape. And yes, there are women who falsely accuse men of rape. And somewhere in the middle of those two extremes there's a
place where genuinely well-intentioned misunderstandings can occur.

How about both men and women start being more honest and open with each other? Being less ambiguous about our intentions and desires? If we were to
take this approach we could limit the occurrence of this situations such as these.

How about both men and women start being more
honest and open with each other?

That sounds good to me. But some people have a difficult time even being honest with themselves, much less anyone else.

Being less ambiguous about our intentions and desires?

Again...I'm all for it. But it would be much easier for people to do that if there was more forgiveness and understanding going around first.

Like Riley suggested...yes, I'm sure there are some men who rape and hurt women and delude themselves into believing that "oh, she really wanted
it." Why? Because they're selfish enough to place their own needs above someone else's comfort and safety. But there are also some women out there
who want to feel overpowered and deliberately put themselves into situations where they will be, and then whine and moan about how helpless they were
and couldn't stop it. Why? Because they long to experience being controlled but aren't willing to take resopnsibility for it.

In both bases you have people who put their own needs before someone else's, and somebody else suffers for it. It's not just men, and it's not just
women.

Life is sometimes difficult here on planet earth. Some people have a difficult time coping.

If you can...forgive them. Understand them. Try not to be eager to perceive them as evil. Not everyone who hurts us does so out of maliciousness.

Apparently to pick up on this requires magical powers of observation. There are alot of people on this thread assuming that she was acting
like a slut. Some people generally do not know what "come in for coffee" means; to some it actually means coffee.

I don't understand it myself. If he went out with her friend they were probably on friendly terms also, and she probably thought that she could trust
him. I wasn't aware that having a few drinks with someone you know and going to their house to listen to music was an invitation to have sex. I
don't understand why it is so hard for some to believe that a man and woman can spend time together without there being any sex involved.

Hell I have men friends (most of my friends are guys, always been that way) and we get together and celebrate our birthdays, etc. We can sit around
drinking and talking smack, laughing all night long and there is no sex involved.

I have a hard time understanding why some men can't seem to control themselves simply because of what a women's wearing. I mean really it's simply
a matter of respect, self respect, and self control.

And all this talk about OMG she's showing some T&A she's hot for it, dressed like a slut, I gotta get me sum of that, really ! I mean if you think
she's a slut why would you want something that's been spread around to every Tom, Dick & Harry anyway and risk catching something. IMO that really
says something about a man when he has so little respect for himself that he chases after a woman that he deems a slut. Maybe the problem is that they
need to grow up and be actual men instead of acting like teenagers drunk on testosterone.

This guy was dumped by a mutual friend and she claims she was there to console him. If he needed to be consoled she may not even suspect
he's after sex because he's supposed to be heartbroken thinking about his ex girlfriend.

There ya go, you hit the nail right on the head ! I don't think too many women would've thought that he was looknig for sex.

I take responsibilty for my actions but I'm a grown woman and.. well have been for a while. Many 18 year old girls do not know how to be
responsible for their own safety and would not realise the risks involved in just having a drink with a stanger.

So do I, I've also been a grown woman for awhile too. I'm also well aware of the fact that if I dress a certain way, or act a certain way that I'm
going to attract a certain kind of attention that I don't want, so I don't do it.

You're right there aren't many, sadly I have to say there are some 20-30+ year old women that I could say the same about.

This guy wasn't even a stranger.

I'm sure this is why she felt safe to go with him and also why she let her guard down.

It is culturally acceptable.. even laughed at to get a woman drunk in order to have sex with her. I believe this is where alot of the the
problem lies as the lines have already been blurred between rape and sexual coersion.

It's a shame that we have made so many advancements, but not in this area.

I'll never understand what a man gets out of sex with a woman that is so drunk that she isn't able to think rationally and stop herself from doing
what she normally wouldn't do. But then again there is a big difference between a real man and a guy that acts like a teenager on a testosterone
induced high.

Originally posted by chise61
And all this talk about OMG she's showing some T&A she's hot for it, dressed like a slut, I gotta get me sum of that, really ! I mean if you think
she's a slut why would you want something that's been spread around to every Tom, Dick & Harry anyway and risk catching something. IMO that really
says something about a man when he has so little respect for himself that he chases after a woman that he deems a slut. Maybe the problem is that they
need to grow up and be actual men instead of acting like teenagers drunk on testosterone.

Perhaps your understanding of men and their biological male-up is just very limited? I don't blame you. After all we live in a society that demands
men respect and understand women's biological nature. Men are 2nd-class citizens in this regard.

Testosterone is a male hormone that makes us horny, violent and impulsive. To imply that it is something that should be "kept under the radar" is
akin to saying females should be able to control their menstrual cycles" without letting anybody else suspect they are having these hormonal
reactions. When the hormone builds up, the hornier, more violent and more impulsive we become. (Kind of like the more oestrogen build-up women have,
the more emotional, agitated and moody they become.)

Why do you make out that dealing with the effects of testosterone are only a problem for males as teenagers?. Again, this is like me stating that
menstrual cycles are only a problem females deal with during puberty.

This guy was dumped by a mutual friend and she claims she was there to console him. If he needed to be consoled she may not even suspect
he's after sex because he's supposed to be heartbroken thinking about his ex girlfriend.

Men and women are very different in this regard. Accepting an invitation to your bedroom is seen by most men as an invitation that you desire to have
sex with them (NOT against your will, just that you are interested).

So do I, I've also been a grown woman for awhile too. I'm also well aware of the fact that if I dress a certain way, or act a certain way
that I'm going to attract a certain kind of attention that I don't want, so I don't do it.

You're right there aren't many, sadly I have to say there are some 20-30+ year old women that I could say the same about.

You mean the kind of women who dress up with the intention of sexually enticing/provoking men, with whom they actually have no desire to have an
intimate relationship with? Yep, I see women like that rather often.

I'll never understand what a man gets out of sex with a woman that is so drunk that she isn't able to think rationally and stop herself from
doing what she normally wouldn't do. But then again there is a big difference between a real man and a guy that acts like a teenager on a
testosterone induced high.

Sex is a very strong form of release for men. Most men will NOT get a high having sex with a non-consenting woman. Most of us find it much more
pleasurable when our partners are enthusiastic and "in the mood" to do it than just doing it for the sake of it or as a chore.

I think it is time you stop listening to the MSM about how evil men are. Why don't you take the time to learn about them and their biological
processes? Instead of labelling all those men looking for love and companionship as "teenagers high on testosterone"? Believe it or not, but men
have feelings and emotions too. Who would have thought?

And he's probably had sex with a dozen other women by telling them "hey let's back to my place and listen to music." And probably all of
them understood what was going on.

Since probably almost all of them understood what was going on, that says that there had to be some that didn't. Maybe she was one of the ones that
didn't.

All I'm saying is that there is totally enough room for miscommunication to happen.

Sure, so when something happens that could be questionable (like a woman struggling to get out from under you) it's very easy to stop and ask "are
you ok ?", "is something wrong?", "are you ok with this ?" "do you want me to stop ?" etc.

And when a guy says "hey, let's go back to my place, go to my bedroom and make some music" he is trying to communicate that he wants to have
sex with you.

Stop playing word games, the article didn't say they went to his place to "make music", it says they went to listen to music. We can only go by
what the article says, not by what you wish to infer. There's a difference there, if a man said to me let's go back to my place and "make some
music" of course I would assume he was talking about sex, but if he said listen to music I would think he meant exactly that.

Except in your case she was screaming during sex, in the rape case she was struggling to get away from him before the sex act.

My understanding of men and their biological make up is not limited at all. And yes I know all about the effects of testosterone, women have
testosterone in their bodies too and it effects us the same way, we just don't have as much as men do.

I'm not trying to make out that dealing with the effects of testosterone is only a problem for males as teenagers. What I mean is that for teenagers
going through puberty it is very new to them and they haven't yet learned to deal with certain urges, etc. But full grown men have been dealing with
the effects of testosterone for long enough to know how to control themselves. They should be way past the point of allowing themselves to lose
control of themselves just because they see some cleavage, or thigh.

If they can't control themselves maybe they have too much testosterone and should go to the doctor. And when it builds up so that they become so
extremely horny, violent, and impulsive then hey maybe they should learn to use their hands instead of forcing something upon a woman that she
doesn't want.

Men and women are very different in this regard. Accepting an invitation to your bedroom is seen by most men as an invitation that you desire
to have sex with them (NOT against your will, just that you are interested).

You know what I'm not even gonna argue this point with you because I wouldn't be truthful if I said you were wrong. This is something that I as a
woman fully understand and will make sure that my grandaughter understands. But then again I'm 48 years old and was raised a certain way and it seems
to me that many young women don't seem to understand certain things these days.

You mean the kind of women who dress up with the intention of sexually enticing/provoking men, with whom they actually have no desire to have
an intimate relationship with? Yep, I see women like that rather often.

Yes I mean that kind of woman, the kind of woman that I told my sons to stay away from. I see it quite often also, and honestly I don't go out with
women like that because I don't want to be guilty by association. My youngest son and my daughter in law were over tonight and we were discussing
this case, and this thread, he's a member here also. He said if they dress like that then they can't complain when they get hit on, or when men make
vulgar comments to them, but no one should ever rape them because of how they dress, or act. No woman under any circumstances should ever be raped.

Sex is a very strong form of release for men. Most men will NOT get a high having sex with a non-consenting woman. Most of us find it much more
pleasurable when our partners are enthusiastic and "in the mood" to do it than just doing it for the sake of it or as a chore.

And I believe that, but some men need to understand that if a woman is struggling to get away from you, or unresponsive then she isn't enthusiastic
and in the mood.

Even though you may have perceived what I said as meaning that I think men are evil, I think nothing of the kind, I'm not a member of the man haters
club. I have been fortunate in my life to have known, been friends with, and even been involved with some very good, caring, respectful, decent,
honorable men. And yes I know that men have emotions too.

I'm not labeling the men looking for love or companionship as anything, I'm talking about men that think it's ok to get a woman drunk, or high with
the intention of taking advantage of her condition, men that that believe that because a woman dresses a certain way that she is asking for it and
deserves to be raped, and men that assume a woman is a slut simply because of the clothing that she wears. Clothes do not make a woman a slut, her
actions do. Maybe some of those women out there that are dressing and acting in a certain way are not sluts, or teases, but just women that are also
looking for love or companionship and just don't realize that they are going about it the wrong way.

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