Yes, another youtube link. I found it very, well 'here we go again' Its really quite annoying for me to watch and I've heard the argument a million times. But I was wondering what the views of all atheists, agnostics theists, deists and religious folk are.

Yes, another youtube link. I found it very, well 'here we go again' Its really quite annoying for me to watch and I've heard the argument a million times. But I was wondering what the views of all atheists, agnostics theists, deists and religious folk are.

Yes, another youtube link. I found it very, well 'here we go again' Its really quite annoying for me to watch and I've heard the argument a million times. But I was wondering what the views of all atheists, agnostics theists, deists and religious folk are.

1. Why won't God heal amputees?
Because He intervenes minimally in human affairs; further, the amputees may be such for a specific reason in "the scheme of things". One must also consider the fact that many amputees are perfectly fine with their 'condition'.

2. Why are there so many starving people in our world?
Well, I can't tell you that. But I can say that it may very well be to ultimately increase mankind's pleasure. Along those lines (not much to do with God, but...) I've always mused at the fact that the end of world poverty (and hunger) is an impossible (or ultimately detrimental) feat to accomplish.

3. Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible?
The use of the word "innocent" makes this question invalid; it's already assuming that God had no right to demand the deaths of those people. That's bad questioning techniques and is bound to get an "intelligent Christian" (whom you claim to direct this question towards) to simply laugh. In any case, I don't believe most of those stories are true, but if they were God would have a reason to kill them, and they wouldn't be "innocent".

4. Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?
Because the Bible is full of crap.

5. Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible?
Some say it's not 'slavery' as we view it today. That could be a possible answer to your question. In any case, the Bible was written to fit what humans saw as "moral" at the time; this is one of the reasons why I see that the Bible was written by humans, and is most definitely not inerrant. Oh, and what GiG said sounded pretty cool.

6. Why do bad things happen to good people?
This is a particularly weak question to be thrown at 'intelligent Christians'. Bad things happen to good people for the same reason good things happen to bad people: God doesn't stand around good people all day and prevent everything bad from happening to them; life wouldn't be as great as it is in that case (and there wouldn't be many good stories and movies).

7. Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?
THE PEOPLE HE HEALED DIED LONG AGO --> pretty much what this dude said. Why would His miracles leave behind evidence? (Rhetorical, btw.)

8. How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?
This is quite an assumption. There are people (take GiG for instance) who claim to have seen God in dreams, etc. The question is: are they lying, crazy, or telling the truth? In any case, I don't think that God can physically appear to you (in all His glory) because in that case you'd be dead. He can probably pull some stunts with talking fires, etc., though, in which case I revert to: some people claimed to have seen such things; are they crazy?

Btw, look in the 'mailbag' section. Jesus appeared. In a towel. ;]

9. Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?
It's symbolic; and, like GiG said, it's a Catholic belief that we're cannibalizing Jesus. I personally don't take part in Communions. It's too ritualistic for me. Jesus didn't require that we do such (and there's no reason for Him to). That last bit answered your question.

10. Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?
Christian marriages are no more special than non-Christian marriages. In fact, it surprises me that they don't get divorced at a HIGHER rate in light of the fact that many Christians rush into marriages in order to complete their holiness.

it's occam's razor all over again, isn't it ? if it takes more special pleading to explain life, the universe and everything with god in it than without, then as a scientist you tend to go for the simplest explanation and leave out god

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)

it's occam's razor all over again, isn't it ? if it takes more special pleading to explain life, the universe and everything with god in it than without, then as a scientist you tend to go for the simplest explanation and leave out god

And while this is a sensible procedure it is not always the case that the simplest explanation is the right one.

you say your kidding but that quite true because for an Atheist to become a Christian he would have to lose a lot of grey matter, which would infact make him thick, which inturn would make him intelligent for a Christian, so there you have it an intelligent Christian.
one that used to be an atheist, until his brain fell out.

kidding :wink:

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"

On another thread, jeremy went to great pains to provide information that shows that about two-thirds of scientists in the United States believe in God.

So, based on the last few posts, we must assume that only one-third of the science community is smart.

Is that enough for us to rely on?

I just checked your source, I believe you to be in err.

A study has shown atheism to be particularly prevalent among scientists, a tendency already quite marked at the beginning of the 20th century, developing into a dominant one during the course of the century. ( Published in Harpers magazine August 1934 Religious beliefs of American scientists by James H. (Henry) Leuba )
In 1934, James H. Leuba found that 58% of 1,000 randomly selected U.S. natural scientists expressed "disbelief or doubt in the existence of God" (defined as a personal God which interacts directly with human beings). The same study, repeated in 1996, gave a similar percentage of 60.7%; this number is 93% among the members of the National Academy of Sciences. Expressions of positive disbelief rose from 52% to 72%.

1. God doesn't do MIRACLES.
2. Why does our governments let this happen?
3. No he doesn't. Old testament. Jesus rectifed that book. Grow up.
4. Words. Not numbers.
Nonsense? Metaphors so your mind can comphrehend it.
5. Slavery? Old testament again, get with the program atheists.
6. Are we supposed to be invincible because we believe in God? WTF?
7. No, there we go again 'evidence'. I don't believe you had a shit today, show me the evidence.
8. What?
9. Metaphor ffs.
10. Cos there hypocrites.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan

1. God doesn't do MIRACLES.
2. Why does our governments let this happen?
3. No he doesn't. Old testament. Jesus rectifed that book. Grow up.
4. Words. Not numbers.
Nonsense? Metaphors so your mind can comphrehend it.
5. Slavery? Old testament again, get with the program atheists.
6. Are we supposed to be invincible because we believe in God? WTF?
7. No, there we go again 'evidence'. I don't believe you had a shit today, show me the evidence.
8. What?
9. Metaphor ffs.
10. Cos there hypocrites.

So you are saying that the Mosaic law was no longer valid after Jesus?

Yes, most except the ten commandments. They are still being used. From what Jesus said here are the 10 commandments plus the two from Christ.

To quote exodus (Deuteronoemy is different for some reason, you'd think there would be only one way of saying it, or at least the church tidy it up a little.

Here are Christs'

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

So pretty much if you do these (especially love thy neighbour) then you aren't going to commit adultery, offend your parents, murder, steal covet etc. So basically its Jesus who has made all the old really strange laws (you know killing folk for breathng ) that really screw up Christians. If anyone who followed Christs word (Gods word through Him), we'd all do fine. But it begs the question, why did God recitfy the old rules in the first place to be correct instead of waiting 2000 odd years? Who knows, maybe He knew it was to happen so let it be, who knows.

To quote the original ten commandments (which I've already said are rectifed by Jesus to the two he taught along with the sermon on the mount):

The numbers aren't neccesary the commandment just the number in the line in Exodus. This is not what Jesus said, why do ou think its called CHRISTianity, follower of Christ, not neccesarily the old testament. True followers of Christianity will understand. It's really hard for atheists to understand the confusion, hell a lot of Chritsians don't actually know what they are doing (which is probably why so many of them are loopy and sing around dancing, but maybe that their way of worshipping so so be it). Anyway. I must apologise for the vaugeness of Christianity-there are so many morons who claim to interperet their 'religion' that it is actually a wrong interperetation. Who knows why they persist with their moronic assumption. (Forgive the insult here to them, its a way of bringing myself to your (atheists) way of seeing religion and I fully understand why you believe the way you do, your arguments are valid given a scientific explantion of doing things. Did I just write all that? Flippin heck. Anyway heres the original ten commandments which should be rectifed to Jesus command, (which a lot don't do).

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 you shall have no other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

8 Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy.

9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.

10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

13 You shall not murder.

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.

17 You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 you shall have no other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

8 Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy.

9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.

10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

13 You shall not murder.

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.

17 You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

why are there 16 commandments in your 10 commandments, and why they start at no.2 ?

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)

Didn't Jesus also say he agreed with all the laws in the old testament and he didn't come to change it, but add something more? Or something similar?

Quite.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5:17-19

A lot of the nasty, archaic laws are included in Deuteronomy, which is a Law - which Jesus refers to. Even Paul is rather clear about it, Romans 10:6-9.
I don't see any precedent for only taking the 'ten commandments' out of the Old Testament.

It's really hard for atheists to understand the confusion, hell a lot of Chritsians don't actually know what they are doing (which is probably why so many of them are loopy and sing around dancing, but maybe that their way of worshipping so so be it). Anyway. I must apologise for the vaugeness of Christianity-there are so many morons who claim to interperet their 'religion' that it is actually a wrong interperetation. Who knows why they persist with their moronic assumption. (Forgive the insult here to them, its a way of bringing myself to your (atheists) way of seeing religion and I fully understand why you believe the way you do, your arguments are valid given a scientific explantion of doing things. Did I just write all that? Flippin heck.

You get an A+ for being pedantic.

why are there 16 commandments in your 10 commandments, and why they start at no.2 ?

They refer to line numbers of Exodus. Perhaps you should be wondering whether he is quoting from Exodus and not the commandments from Deuteronomy, which is a slightly different set of ten commandments.

For some reason, you'd think they'd make it more clearer by having only one set of commandments. But perhaps they didn't know who wrote it if they had wrote it and therfore did write it for the reason that they thought no one had wrote it so did to tell people.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan

For some reason, you'd think they'd make it more clearer by having only one set of commandments. But perhaps they didn't know who wrote it if they had wrote it and therfore did write it for the reason that they thought no one had wrote it so did to tell people

Spectacular!

Why is it so difficult to find the correct combination of commandments? Very few religions agree on exactly what they should believe in.[/quote]

Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

"Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
"All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

For some reason, you'd think they'd make it more clearer by having only one set of commandments. But perhaps they didn't know who wrote it if they had wrote it and therfore did write it for the reason that they thought no one had wrote it so did to tell people

Spectacular!

Why is it so difficult to find the correct combination of commandments? Very few religions agree on exactly what they should believe in.

[/quote]

This is what I find quite strange - I've read the King James/Authorised version, partuclarly the first few books, quite a few times (great work of English Literature + 'know thy enemy' :P ), but have never been able, unambiguously, to count 10 commandments. Which 10 and why this particular grouping? Any explanations?

Didn't Jesus also say he agreed with all the laws in the old testament and he didn't come to change it, but add something more? Or something similar?

Quite.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5:17-19

A lot of the nasty, archaic laws are included in Deuteronomy, which is a Law - which Jesus refers to. Even Paul is rather clear about it, Romans 10:6-9.
I don't see any precedent for only taking the 'ten commandments' out of the Old Testament.

A lot of Bible apologetics would tell you that His fulfilling the laws means that we are no longer under them (though He didn't abolish them). He fulfilled those laws, and now we're under new laws.

Didn't Jesus also say he agreed with all the laws in the old testament and he didn't come to change it, but add something more? Or something similar?

Quite.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5:17-19

A lot of the nasty, archaic laws are included in Deuteronomy, which is a Law - which Jesus refers to. Even Paul is rather clear about it, Romans 10:6-9.
I don't see any precedent for only taking the 'ten commandments' out of the Old Testament.

A lot of Bible apologetics would tell you that His fulfilling the laws means that we are no longer under them (though He didn't abolish them). He fulfilled those laws, and now we're under new laws.

That's not to say I agree with them, but it sounds reasonable.

What does destroy mean? What did Jesus not come to do? Methinks destroy sounds very much like abolishing Mosaic law.

Besides, why would God introduce a whole system of law, to then remove it completely and just restrict it to the ten commandments? Was he experimenting on the Jews?

Didn't Jesus also say he agreed with all the laws in the old testament and he didn't come to change it, but add something more? Or something similar?

Quite.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5:17-19

A lot of the nasty, archaic laws are included in Deuteronomy, which is a Law - which Jesus refers to. Even Paul is rather clear about it, Romans 10:6-9.
I don't see any precedent for only taking the 'ten commandments' out of the Old Testament.

A lot of Bible apologetics would tell you that His fulfilling the laws means that we are no longer under them (though He didn't abolish them). He fulfilled those laws, and now we're under new laws.

That's not to say I agree with them, but it sounds reasonable.

What does destroy mean? What did Jesus not come to do? Methinks destroy sounds very much like abolishing Mosaic law.

Again, he didn't destroy or abolish it. It was fulfilled, meaning that now we're in a new stage of morality; we're no longer restricted to the old laws. When you say destroy/abolish, you think of something like slavery that was shown to be bad, and thus thrown out. When Jesus says "fulfill", apologists think of it as <see below>.

Originally Posted by HU

Besides, why would God introduce a whole system of law, to then remove it completely and just restrict it to the ten commandments? Was he experimenting on the Jews?

Why doesn't your mother allow you to go near electrical outlets when you're younger, but allows you when you're older?

Your answer to that would be the way apologists see Jesus' fulfilling the laws.

I contend that no God-given laws existed (though I'm kind of reconsidering that), but the apologists have a point. I'm thinking that the composers of these scriptures were thinking along the same lines (even if they made it all up).

But I was wondering what the views of all atheists, agnostics theists, deists and religious folk are.

My views - Since religion was 'drummed' into me as a child I did not have the opportunity to decide for myself whether there is in fact a god or should that be God? - anyway I decided not to drum religion into any of my 4 children but let them find their own way in life - none of them are religous all of them have allowed my grandchildren to also find their own way. From this I deduce no 'god' has contacted/recruited any of my offspring and therefore religion is only perpetuated by 'word of mouth'. As far as I am concerned 'Myth busted'.

Didn't Jesus also say he agreed with all the laws in the old testament and he didn't come to change it, but add something more? Or something similar?

Quite.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5:17-19

A lot of the nasty, archaic laws are included in Deuteronomy, which is a Law - which Jesus refers to. Even Paul is rather clear about it, Romans 10:6-9.
I don't see any precedent for only taking the 'ten commandments' out of the Old Testament.

A lot of Bible apologetics would tell you that His fulfilling the laws means that we are no longer under them (though He didn't abolish them). He fulfilled those laws, and now we're under new laws.

That's not to say I agree with them, but it sounds reasonable.

What does destroy mean? What did Jesus not come to do? Methinks destroy sounds very much like abolishing Mosaic law.

Besides, why would God introduce a whole system of law, to then remove it completely and just restrict it to the ten commandments? Was he experimenting on the Jews?

Well, if it weren't for Jesus we'd still be in the sand and be nowhere were we are today. Christ's 1st coming changed the world forever. Maybe that answers your question, maybe not.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan

They refer to line numbers of Exodus. Perhaps you should be wondering whether he is quoting from Exodus and not the commandments from Deuteronomy, which is a slightly different set of ten commandments.

I simply do not see how one is even “slightly different” from the other.

Other than, perhaps slight phraseological differences or explanation differences, I cannot find how the restatement in Deuteronomy is different in content from the original as it appears in Exodus.

You will note that the first four deal with our relationship to God while the other six deal with our relationships to other people. Thus, the 10 Commandment are only expansions of what Jesus said were the two most important commandments.

Svwillmer already pointed this out but, when asked by the Pharisees about the greatest commandment, Jesus quoted Deut. 6:4-5 and Lev. 19:18 – “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,and all the soul, and all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” He then added, “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

So it seems clear that if you are living up to the two great commands, you are also living up to the 10 Commandments and the further expansion of those concepts throughout the Torah.

So, if one does not like the 10 Commandments, one might just focus on the two master commandments. And if you don’t believe in God, skip the first one and try to accomplish the other.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005

They refer to line numbers of Exodus. Perhaps you should be wondering whether he is quoting from Exodus and not the commandments from Deuteronomy, which is a slightly different set of ten commandments.

I simply do not see how one is even “slightly different” from the other.

Other than, perhaps slight phraseological differences or explanation differences, I cannot find how the restatement in Deuteronomy is different in content from the original as it appears in Exodus.

You will note that the first four deal with our relationship to God while the other six deal with our relationships to other people. Thus, the 10 Commandment are only expansions of what Jesus said were the two most important commandments.

Svwillmer already pointed this out but, when asked by the Pharisees about the greatest commandment, Jesus quoted Deut. 6:4-5 and Lev. 19:18 – “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,and all the soul, and all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” He then added, “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

So it seems clear that if you are living up to the two great commands, you are also living up to the 10 Commandments and the further expansion of those concepts throughout the Torah.

So, if one does not like the 10 Commandments, one might just focus on the two master commandments. And if you don’t believe in God, skip the first one and try to accomplish the other.

Yes. If you follow the two main commandments your not going to covet, steal, commit adultery, murder etc, so its pretty much a nice way of being religious as you don't put someone to death because they do something that they could be put to death for.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan