a bit off topic, but... I find animal cruelty that much more unconscionable because there is no concept in the animal's mind of what might happen. I feel like with adults that in some cases using our heads could keep us from being victimized, and animals don't have that foresight. (e.g. "that dark alley looks unsafe")

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
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"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07

Can people not read simple body language?have you ever watched the man when he says "he's sorry"? his statements about being sorry are cold and calculated, he says what his PR agents tell him to say and that is all.the man is a sociopath. he has no empathy for what he is done and he is certainly not sorry for it he is simply sorry he got caught(as many others have already said).

I think people forget that he didn't simply participate as a spectator in dog fighting. he electrocuted and drowned these dogs. he tortured them!

do people even listen when he talks? every time he talks about it he talks about what HE went through. he doesn't talk about the horrible things he did to the animals.

"and certainly no one has doing more to come back than Michael Vick has."-random news guy talking out of his butt Um, sorry...there are A LOT of people who have made larger comebacks from stuff...especially stuff that they didn't get themselves into. THOSE are the people to be celebrated.

AllAmericanPUP wrote:Can people not read simple body language?have you ever watched the man when he says "he's sorry"? his statements about being sorry are cold and calculated, he says what his PR agents tell him to say and that is all.the man is a sociopath. he has no empathy for what he is done and he is certainly not sorry for it he is simply sorry he got caught(as many others have already said).

I think people forget that he didn't simply participate as a spectator in dog fighting. he electrocuted and drowned these dogs. he tortured them!

Really? Her personally tortured them? He drowned and electrocuted these dogs himself? I'm really interested to see any conclusive evidence that would support that claim. As of yet I haven't seen it and I understand that he was merely facilitating the crimes by maintaining the property. Am I wrong on this?

As for the Vick hatred...I'm over it. No one but the NFL should be able to determine his eligibility for play. The NFL doesn't get my money anyway. Kids who look up to professional athletes as role models do so because of a lack of suitable role models at home. The amount of hatred people are directing at a loser like Vick is really a waste of energy. The guy's single talent is playing a game. If it weren't for America's laughable worship of sports figures this guy would be cleaning toilets for a living. As it stands he'll probably end up a broke and broken old man anyway.

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

DemoDick wrote:Really? Her personally tortured them? He drowned and electrocuted these dogs himself? I'm really interested to see any conclusive evidence that would support that claim. As of yet I haven't seen it and I understand that he was merely facilitating the crimes by maintaining the property. Am I wrong on this?

He may not have actually stood there and held the dog's lives in his hands, but IMO facilitating it and participating in it are the same thing - regardless of what the law might say. It really doesn't make what he did any less wrong just because he watched his friends do everything.

I guess I should add I do think Michael Vick is getting a lot of the blame because everyone knows his name, but I blame the people he was working with too. Unfortunately as a public figure, conducting yourself the way that he did was kind of a party foul on his part.

DemoDick wrote:Really? Her personally tortured them? He drowned and electrocuted these dogs himself? I'm really interested to see any conclusive evidence that would support that claim. As of yet I haven't seen it and I understand that he was merely facilitating the crimes by maintaining the property. Am I wrong on this?

He may not have actually stood there and held the dog's lives in his hands, but IMO facilitating it and participating in it are the same thing - regardless of what the law might say.

Well, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. The law takes a different view and I am glad that it does. Facilitating animal cruelty and actively participating are NOT the same thing. Not even in the same ball park. That's why there are (usually) different penalties for each category.

With the number of people who have piled on to every Vick thread, I would expect that someone would be able to tell me exactly what his documented involvement in this whole mess was. I'm genuinely curious, as it seems to have gotten lost in all the righteous fervor. What exactly did he do?

It really doesn't make what he did any less wrong just because he watched his friends do everything.

Less wrong? No. But what if he was a few states away at the time? Is that the same as personally torturing dogs? I don't think so. If we're going to sit in moral judgement this guy, let's consider what he actually did.

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Actually, I'm pretty sure he did admit to killing 2 or 3 of the dogs himself.

I'd like to see that corroborated. I spent some time trying to get to the meat of the story to actually find out what was revealed in court and gave up in frustration. It's surprisingly difficult to find out the details of exactly what Vick did. I guess most people are content to hear "dog fighting" "conviction" and "sentencing" and leave it at that.

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

Ok, according to Wiki (take that for what it's worth), Vick admitted to financing, watching, and assisting with the destruction of between 6 and 8 dogs, by hanging or drowning.

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

AUGUST 24--Michael 'Ookie' Vick has agreed to plead guilty to a felony charge for his role in the management of a brutal dogfighting ring that was headquartered at a Virginia property owned by the NFL star. Vick, 27, is expected to formally enter his guilty plea Monday in an appearance at U.S. District Court in Richmond. As part of a plea deal, the Atlanta Falcons quarterback admitted that his Bad Newz Kennels operation wagered money--which he provided--in pit bull fights. However, 'Vick did not gamble by placing side bets on any of the fights,' according to a 'summary of the facts' that was filed today in court. That document, a copy of which you'll find below, also notes that Vick 'was aware' that three of his cohorts killed several dogs that performed poorly in test fighting sessions in mid-2002. The summary reports that 'Vick did not kill any dogs at this time.' Earlier this year, Vick, and two cronies 'agreed to the killing of approximately 6-8 dogs' that fared poorly in testing sessions at his Smithfield, Virginia property. Some of the animals were drowned or hanged, and Vick 'stipulated' that the animals died via the 'collected efforts' of himself, and codefendants Quanis Phillips and Purnell Peace. Both Phillips and Peace previously pleaded guilty to federal charges and stated that Vick participated in the execution of eight dogs last April. Vick faces a maximum of five years in prison for his conspiracy conviction. (22 pages)

"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

Okay, that makes it more serious for me. "Facilitating" this kind of thing a few states away is a lot easier to rationalize when you don't have to see the ugliness of it up close and personal (out of sight, out of mind). But to kill dogs by hanging or drowning, when there are more humane ways to do it (hell, a bullet in the head is kinder), is just plain sick. There's some damaged goods for you.

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

DemoDick wrote:Okay, that makes it more serious for me. "Facilitating" this kind of thing a few states away is a lot easier to rationalize when you don't have to see the ugliness of it up close and personal (out of sight, out of mind). But to kill dogs by hanging or drowning, when there are more humane ways to do it (hell, a bullet in the head is kinder), is just plain sick. There's some damaged goods for you.

'

Yes, hence my "sociopath" comments about him. No one does that kind of crap if they don't get something out of it... and I can excuse (almost) anything once, but multiple times? No. Not a chance.

The guy is a sicko, and the fact that an NFL team wants him as their headliner because of money, after claiming to care about their public image and about animals a few years ago is disgusting.

What would bring you to beat your dog to death? wtf. There are not very many decent people in this world.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
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"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07

Here's 17 pages of interviews from the inspector general's thingamajig statements (I can't think of the freaking name for it!). Also, can't remember where I found it, but it had something to do with Vick, Taylor, Peace and the others. It's all of it.

mnp13 wrote:Why don't I believe it? Because systematic torture of animals for personal gratification/gain is the mark of a sociopath. Sociopaths don't just "turn over a new leaf." He did this for years, you have to be a sick individual to do it once... but years? Like has already been said, he's only sorry he got caught.

Exactly.

I am in this camp. Having been married to one they mask very well. They can do it for years. The underlying nature of the person however does not change. He is only sorry he got caught.

Not only am I a member of the Michelle says my dog is fat club I'm the president!I can Alpha Roll hair!