jack_of_california:It is obvious the something is going wrong in North Korea... If you have two countries having the same race, same religion... but different political regimes and leadership, one is a leading country in technology, economy, industry, culture, human rights.... and one is promoting terrorism, wars, military and suppressing human rights...

A friend of mine who's a historian by trade thinks that IF the North Korean government is going to go wobbly, it'll be due to their contact with China. The Godless Communists there may be bad off, but they're in MUCH better shape that the NKs, AND they have goodies like cell-phones and PCs.

The Kims can't keep their entire county in a bubble of delusion forever...just a lot longer than we'd like.

Isn't it going to happen eventually, though? Would it get easier or harder with time, giving them more time to build their military, build weapons and nukes, whatever? Is there no reasonable expectation that at some point, at the least because the nation cannot be sustained, something drastic will be done on their part to trigger a huge retaliation? I mean, probably within the next 20 years?

chronobreak:Isn't it going to happen eventually, though? Would it get easier or harder with time, giving them more time to build their military, build weapons and nukes, whatever? Is there no reasonable expectation that at some point, at the least because the nation cannot be sustained, something drastic will be done on their part to trigger a huge retaliation? I mean, probably within the next 20 years?

Not necessarily.

There has been a lot of rumbling in the region about a possible merging of the two Korean countries in a way similar to what happened in Germany. While that event wasn't exactly bloodless it was a hell of a lot better than total war. What is very interesting is that the North Koreans wasn't openly hostile to the idea (perhaps due to the fact that China was so in favor of it). The consensus in the region is that status-quo is much more preferable to war, and that nobody should to anything that might spook the North into shooting. The political or social climate will eventually reach a point where merger is possible, either through a collapse of the regime or other means.

After 3+ pages of discussion I've yet to see a real good argument from the pro-liberation side. Nothing they've suggested would result in a net improvement in the world. Yes, the people in the North live in deplorable conditions, but are we willing to sacrifice South Korea and more to help them? Remember that a war with North Korea will involve heavy military action in and around both Japanese and Chinese territories. This will greatly destabilize those two countries and the chaos that will ensue in northern China might be capable of bringing down the regime there. Is instigating a possible civil war in China and killing a fuck-ton of Koreans really good for anyone?

Depends on what you mean by "it". If you mean the fall of the regime, yes, it certainly will happen eventually. If you mean invasion to force a regime change, no it is by no means inevitable.

The issues you mention to make it harder- nukes, etc, are only a concern if you assume unilateral military intervention is the only way to make a change in the DPRK. And if you think that, I hope you have a giant mustache, because you may as well be John Bolton.

chronobreak:Isn't it going to happen eventually, though? Would it get easier or harder with time, giving them more time to build their military, build weapons and nukes, whatever? Is there no reasonable expectation that at some point, at the least because the nation cannot be sustained, something drastic will be done on their part to trigger a huge retaliation? I mean, probably within the next 20 years?

They have little industry to build up their military faster than their likely opponents; they sacrifice much just to maintain it. Their economy is heavily tilted toward military strength in the present, not so much the future. Whereas they might have additional time to build up their military strength, as relatively slow as that will be, others have additional time to plan and innovate the means to defeat them more efficiently.

Outside of the event of liberating North Korea probably being bloody, chaotic, and virtually impossible we've got far greater things to worry about. Seriously, Danyal, you're blowing North Korea way out of proportion. The real thing we need to be focusing on is gay people. If two men get married, then what exactly would we call them? We can't just call them groom and bride, because the literal definition of a bride is a woman that's about to get married. Where as groom and groom would sound completely redundant. You see Danyal, this is what keeps me up at night. This is what's worth worrying about. What exactly would you do if you were in my position, if you had to worry about what one of the grooms would be called? So yeah, you can worry about a country armed with nukes that we couldn't dream of invading without a violent response where as I'll continue to focus on the things that actually matter. Humph.

Well, all right. I guess I can spare a few moments to share some incite on this issue - as minor as it may be. The truth is, we shouldn't invade North Korea. We're probably better off staying the fuck away from them like a child that just crawled out of a sewer. North Korea is a lot like an insane asylum patient . . . that just climbed out of a sewer. Basically, you're just better off leaving them alone. If we attack them, they might get pissed off and nuke us. If they don't nuke us, their may be a serious death toll. And along with that death toll, we may not even succeed. In fact, we may just throw them in even greater chaos. We furthermore can't help these people if they're truly under the impression that Kim Junior is the shit. When France helped America, America was sick of Britain. So quite simply, we aren't going to change these peoples minds of Kim by invading their country. No, instead we would only give them a reason to rally behind him. If you were to be invaded by another country that felt it was right to war you, I doubt you'd agree with their invasion even if Bush was in charge.

The only people that can help North Korea is North Koreans.When they are ready, they'll be ready. Otherwise lets not get our hands dirty with their blood while we're under the delusion that we're helping them. You cannot help a sick child that crawled out of a sewer simply by killing him.

lSHaDoW-FoXl:So quite simply, we aren't going to change these peoples minds of Kim by invading their country. No, instead we would only give them a reason to rally behind him. If you were to be invaded by another country that felt it was right to war you, I doubt you'd agree with their invasion even if Bush was in charge

But Shaaadooooooow, how long do we have to bomb these muslims in Afghanistan until they start liking us?!

Or in the words of the almighty Dick Cheney before the invasion, "I am certain they will welcome us as Liberators!"True story.

Okay, let me try and make this simple. They feel the same way about the west as the west feels about them. If we have the right to invade them for no other reason than because we think it's right, then they should have the right to invade us. I am trying to point out that "because we think it's the right thing to do" is a fucked up reason to invade an already disheveled country and fuck it up even more.

You can break it down all the way to the 2+2=5 level, that won't make it any more right. I see exactly what you are saying, I have seen it since your first post, you are wrong, you are not, in any way, supporting your opinion.

See where you are falling down, is I and several others are saying it is right because of X Y Z (go back over the thread for the reasoning) we are not just saying that it is right, we are backing it up. Either you can back up their reasoning for thinking that they are right, or it is not a valid view.

And again if you do not act on what you think is right, what do you act on?

Okay, how about this. If you cannot put yourself in the shoes of the people you want to "liberate" and see it as a good thing, IT'S NOT A GOOD FUCKING THING! Not once, not fucking once, did I bring up whether N.Korea's thinking was right or not, and yet your whole god damned premise for shooting me down was that one thought. My whole premise was that, just because you think something is a worthy cause, doesn't make it a worthy cause, by juxtaposing it with the opposition wanting the same thing for the same reasons. And you know what, you've proved my point perfectly. You are so clouded with the idea that they're wrong for thinking that way but you're right, you can't see how stupid an idea it is.

Edit: Oh, and the car represented the run down, destroyed state that N.Korea is in. Nice to know you don't think it's worth fighting for.

The Clockmaker appears to be right. This Wintercoat guy isn't even comprehensible.

As Clockmaker said, thinking something doesn't make it a worthy cause, but thinking it for articulated reasons does.

The idea that other people have to see their liberation as a good thing for it to be the right thing is wrong, and we all know it's wrong because we frequently take actions to help our children (and troubled adults) once we pass a certain threshold of confidence about our having better information than they do about their own needs. Even if they don't want our help. Some of these actions are questionable but we still believe the line exists.

Furthermore, many North Koreans do want liberation; I'd wager that the tens of thousands of tortured and maimed political prisoners would be happy to be freed. (one of the most salient first-hand accounts, I think, is this guy: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50136263n)

Firstly thanks for bringing this thread back up, it's nice to see posts from people we all miss like Danyal and Arbane. Secondly if they wanted it bad enough there'd be a revolution and they'd liberate themselves like Libya.

Xan Krieger:Secondly if they wanted it bad enough there'd be a revolution and they'd liberate themselves like Libya.

Really. You sure you didn't mean to pink-text that? It's kind of insanely difficult to revolt if the populace behaviorally conditioned from birth to unconditionally love its country and government, and to revere every work and edict issued to them from their leader as if it came from God.

Xan Krieger:Secondly if they wanted it bad enough there'd be a revolution and they'd liberate themselves like Libya.

Really. You sure you didn't mean to pink-text that? It's kind of insanely difficult to revolt if the populace behaviorally conditioned from birth to unconditionally love its country and government, and to revere every work and edict issued to them from their leader as if it came from God.

No I didn't mean to pink text it because in that case they don't want to be invaded. If they're taught that and believe they should be completely loyal to their government then why invade them if they don't want it?

Xan Krieger:No I didn't mean to pink text it because in that case they don't want to be invaded. If they're taught that and believe they should be completely loyal to their government then why invade them if they don't want it?

Then what not say just that, since it's a much more reasonable stance? :P

While straight "liberation" is indeed not a good idea here, that doesn't change that fact the North Korean people are in a really bad way--even if they themselves don't realize it--and that they do need to be somehow freed from oppression. Personally, I feel like the current, slow, global pressure against the North Korean regime is the best way to go about it, even if it's taking longer than we might like.

Xan Krieger:No I didn't mean to pink text it because in that case they don't want to be invaded. If they're taught that and believe they should be completely loyal to their government then why invade them if they don't want it?

Then what not say just that, since it's a much more reasonable stance? :P

While straight "liberation" is indeed not a good idea here, that doesn't change that fact the North Korean people are in a really bad way--even if they themselves don't realize it--and that they do need to be somehow freed from oppression. Personally, I feel like the current, slow, global pressure against the North Korean regime is the best way to go about it, even if it's taking longer than we might like.

They are making progress though with the kid in charge. The kid seems far nicer than his crazy father. Also with every rocket they launch the world turns against them more and more, I can't imagine China enjoys having a crazy nuclear power that close and Japan must hate how the missiles fly over Japan to reach the ocean.

They have brainwash their armed forces which would do long lasting guerilla warfare for I am pretty sure 5 years after they last. We would win, but their nuclear weapons makes me a tad afraid of what they may do to Seoul.

Promethax:You can't just liberate N. Korea. The people are raised from birth to believe that their leader is a living god and can do no wrong. They're more indoctrinated than Commander Shepard.

Pretty much, but some of the nonmilitary may be happier reuniting families, and such.

Xan Krieger:They are making progress though with the kid in charge. The kid seems far nicer than his crazy father. Also with every rocket they launch the world turns against them more and more, I can't imagine China enjoys having a crazy nuclear power that close and Japan must hate how the missiles fly over Japan to reach the ocean.

Exactly! KJU got to see the world as it is, rather than what NK would have its people believe, and seems to be loosening things as a result; their constant weapons testing is now getting on even their allies' (ally's?) nerves. Seeing a well-constructed approach to a problem like NK work as well as it is gives me fuzzies, and also makes me wish that more people could see the merits of always solving problems like this.

No we shouldn't. America and it's allies should stop considering themselves the police of the world. We should just let other countries deal with their own problems and only intervene if they become a real and direct threat.

David Merton:Reading these comments, you people make me sick. The only thing it seems you care about is that you are safe and if 24million people are suffering beyond your contemplation, you don't give a fuck.

The question about do we have the moral right to invade another country, even without getting into a discussion about it, let's look at it from a different angle, did we have a right to invade Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. Let's say no. But that didn't stop us, so why can't we invade this one where people are suffering much, much more ?

About warfare do we need to go to a direct war ? I like a good blood bath like any other guy ? But what about if the liberation would be done from inside. The North Korea is becoming weaker and with the change of the dictator, ore than ever. It's possible, especially if China would support this, to simply assassinate the thousand people in power and support by supplies the pro democracy movements which i am sure would emerge. The country might get to be in distress and civil war may brake out, but with the support from the west the pro democracy forces would win i believe. I am just brainstorming. But liberation is definitely possible, especially if China would go aboard with it.

We talk about the Arab spring and how great it is most of those countries freed themselves from dictatorship and we celebrate it ( and that is wonderful). But the fact is the dictatorship that was in those countries is like the United States compared to what they have in North Korea. This might have been a figure of speech, but most of the people literally don't understand how bad it is in North Korea. For god fucking sake, they still have concentration camps, remember the ones that Nazis used in ww2? The ones that Stalin did ? I can't realize how other people could justify such suffering of others and just say, ou yea it will collapse by itself. Yea nothing lasts forever in 20-40 years North Korea might be gone. But what about all the millions of lives lost till then ????

Well, Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan did not border a major trading partner and ally, aren't pointing all weapons and ready to fire at that trading partner/ally, and are not garenteed protection by a super power with nuclear weapons.

While China is becoming increasingly annoyed with North Koreas antics, it still states it will defend the dictatorship. China currently A. is an integral part of the world economy, and would start a world wide depression if stopped trading with people, B. could escelate the situation to World War 3, and C. with it's ICBMs, China could make the WW3 end the world.

While the fate of the North Korean people is tragic, the consequences if we tried to help could be much, MUCH worse.