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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Frankly, the entire argument is starting to devolve into ad hominem and strawmanning (And a dash of Anecdotal Fallacy) (There's a bit of guilt on both sides), so I think both sides need to, at least, tone it down a notch.

Speaking of which, what is the official ruling (or is there one?) on how canon the fluff is from out-dated codexes (For instance, stuff from the 3rd Edition Necron codex about the War in Heaven that is not contradicted by the 5th edition one, or the details on how Gauss weapons work)?

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by Squark

Frankly, the entire argument is starting to devolve into ad hominem and strawmanning (And a dash of Anecdotal Fallacy) (There's a bit of guilt on both sides), so I think both sides need to, at least, tone it down a notch.

Speaking of which, what is the official ruling (or is there one?) on how canon the fluff is from out-dated codexes (For instance, stuff from the 3rd Edition Necron codex about the War in Heaven that is not contradicted by the 5th edition one, or the details on how Gauss weapons work)?

Pretty sure the Official GW line is "mumble mumble *shifty eyes* you decide what's canon anyways?"

Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2011-12-08 at 06:21 PM.

Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by deuterio12

I aparently know more than anyone else in this thread

That, more than anything just destroys your integrity and I wont bother replying to anything else since the rest of your argument is Straw Mans and exaggerated hyperbole that I typically expect from other places in the bowels of the 'net.

Originally Posted by Zorg

None of the Primarchs were corrupted by their experiences in the warp as infants - they were corrupted and twisted by their experiences with humanity.

Lorgar was twisted from one bad experience with Dad. Chaos had nothing to do with it until much later.
Angron was twisted when he had implants put in his head and Dad took him against his will and watched all his people die when Dad could have intervened - he was there!
Curze/Night Haunter was ruined from the start.
Alpharius was loyal to Horus, not to the Emperor. Because the Emperor wasn't the one to find Alphy in the first place. Plus everyone was a d* to him.
Magnus was denounced by Dad and was angry when Russ was sent to kill him, and later more angry when he found out Dad wanted to put him in the throne.
Mortarion had no friends.
Perturabo realised that he was not on a Unity Crusade, just on a killing spree and the Emperor was doing it wrong.

IIRC, Horus and Fulgrim were the only ones directly tainted by Chaos. By the same sword no less.

Originally Posted by Squark

Speaking of which, what is the official ruling (or is there one?) on how canon the fluff is from out-dated codexes (For instance, stuff from the 3rd Edition Necron codex about the War in Heaven that is not contradicted by the 5th edition one, or the details on how Gauss weapons work)?

"Everything is canon, not all of it is true." is the official stance of GW.

The normal view is that most-recent fluff takes precedence, and unless directly contradicted, the old fluff still remains.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2011-12-08 at 08:57 PM.

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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

IIRC, Horus and Fulgrim were the only ones directly tainted by Chaos. By the same sword no less.

Nitpick: I don't think that it was the same sword, though I admittedly haven't ready any of the 30k books directly concernng Horus. But IIRC, Horus was tainted by Chaos on Davin, while Fulgrim was corrupted by the sword he took from the temple of the Laer.

Erebus (a Word Bearer, in the Sons of Horus by way of the Chaplain edict) steals an Anathame (and starts a war) and gives it to a general.
The general gets left behind on Davin's Moon, and later says the Imperium sucks.

Horus is angry that one of the worlds he liberated has Fallen, and as Warmaster he can't have that, and with a bit of goading by Erebus goes to Davin's Moon.
Horus is stabbed by the Anathame.

Erebus convinces the Sons of Horus to take him down to Davin to be healed. Erebus is the only one allowed with Horus in the temple, and he goes on a dream quest with Horus. Erebus duels Magnus in psykery over Horus and appears to win. I'm unclear how Erebus defeats Magnus when Magnus is supposedly that powerful.

Horus is healed. Fulgrim stops by to see how the Warmaster is doing, Fabius Bile takes the Anathame and gifts it to Fulgrim.

Erebus seals his place as one of the Holy Trinity of Word Bearers.

Erebus the Warmonger later is seen as a Dreadnought in the Word Bearers trilogy, one of my favourite series.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2011-12-08 at 08:55 PM.

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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Erebus (a Word Bearer, in the Sons of Horus by way of the Chaplain edict) steals an Anathame (and starts a war) and gives it to a general.
The general gets left behind on Davin's Moon, and later says the Imperium sucks.

Horus is angry that one of the worlds he liberated has Fallen, and as Warmaster he can't have that, and with a bit of goading by Erebus goes to Davin's Moon.
Horus is stabbed by the Anathame.

Erebus convinces the Sons of Horus to take him down to Davin to be healed. Erebus is the only one allowed with Horus in the temple, and he goes on a dream quest with Horus. Erebus duels Magnus in psykery over Horus and appears to win. I'm unclear how Erebus defeats Magnus when Magnus is supposedly that powerful.

Horus is healed. Fulgrim stops by to see how the Warmaster is doing, Fabius Bile takes the Anathame and gifts it to Fulgrim.

Erebus the Warmonger later is seen as a Dreadnought in the Word Bearers trilogy, one of my favourite series.

Ah. Weird, because in Fulgrim (the book), no mention is made of the Anathame - it's the silver Daemonblade that Fulgrim finds in the Laer temple that corrupts him, and contains the daemon that eventually possesses him.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete

Ah. Weird, because in Fulgrim (the book), no mention is made of the Anathame - it's the silver Daemonblade that Fulgrim finds in the Laer temple that corrupts him, and contains the daemon that eventually possesses him.

Fulgrim had three swords at one point?

The ending of False Gods has Fulgrim clearly in possession of the Anathame.Fulgrim has Fulgrim with the Laer Blade and the Fireblade.

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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

The earlier comment about the Blood Ravens being just fanfiction, how close is that to GW's stance on what is and isn't canon? Because they made Black Library book out of the (horribly written) adventures of Gabrial Angelous and the Third company through the Dawn of War campaigns. And furthermore, I know I have seen a single lone Blood Ravens tactical marine on the pages of the space marines codex during one of the "painting schemes" sections.

Is it all just speculation, or do we know?

Claspedchurches: This is a mudstone dwarven fortress. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It is encrusted with bauxite, studded with ice, decorated with gold, and adorned with hanging rings of magma. This fortress menaces with spikes of steel, iron, bronze, and silver. On the fortress is an image of an image of cheese in pitchblende.

On the fortress is an image of a megaweapon in gold, silver, jet, obsidian and adamantine. The goblins are burning.

The earlier comment about the Blood Ravens being just fanfiction, how close is that to GW's stance on what is and isn't canon?

The books are canon, the games are not. Blood Ravens have an IA article and everything.

It's basically canon that Blood Ravens are descended from Chaos stock.
Blood Ravens have a high proportion of psykers, so much so that their entire 1st Company are psykers (100 Marines), in fact, to be in the 1st Company, a requirement is that you need to be a psyker. And that's not even including the rest of the Chapter.

A Thousand Sons makes a not-so-subtle hint that Blood Ravens are descended from Thousand Sons.

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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

What version of imperial armour do they show up in?

Claspedchurches: This is a mudstone dwarven fortress. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It is encrusted with bauxite, studded with ice, decorated with gold, and adorned with hanging rings of magma. This fortress menaces with spikes of steel, iron, bronze, and silver. On the fortress is an image of an image of cheese in pitchblende.

On the fortress is an image of a megaweapon in gold, silver, jet, obsidian and adamantine. The goblins are burning.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

The books are canon, the games are not. Blood Ravens have an IA article and everything.

It's basically canon that Blood Ravens are descended from Chaos stock.
Blood Ravens have a high proportion of psykers, so much so that their entire 1st Company are psykers (100 Marines), in fact, to be in the 1st Company, a requirement is that you need to be a psyker. And that's not even including the rest of the Chapter.

A Thousand Sons makes a not-so-subtle hint that Blood Ravens are descended from Thousand Sons.

...

Okay, explain that one to me. How exactly did the Imperium get the Gene-seed from the Thousand sons they'd need to establish a chapter? Especially without knowing where it's from, since no sane person would knowingly use the gene-seed of a chapter that fell to chaos.

Although it does sound eerily plausible, given their gene-seed flaws...

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

IA here stands for Index Astartes, a series of articles that were published in White Dwarf going through many of the chapters (as well as a few things like Chaplains, Librarians, Dreads), detailing their origins, history, customs, etc. They're invaluable for fluff purposes, and generally pretty awesome. The article on Dreadnoughts, for example, details the largest Dread on Dread fight recorded, during the Third War for Armageddon - 17 Marine dreads against a giant horde of Dreads and Kans.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by Squark

...

Okay, explain that one to me. How exactly did the Imperium get the Gene-seed from the Thousand sons they'd need to establish a chapter? Especially without knowing where it's from, since no sane person would knowingly use the gene-seed of a chapter that fell to chaos.

Although it does sound eerily plausible, given their gene-seed flaws...

I think the implication is that the Blood Ravens were founded by a group of Thousand Sons marines who split from their legion and remained as loyalists, possibly in hiding so as to avoid being hunted down with the rest of hte traitors.

Claspedchurches: This is a mudstone dwarven fortress. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It is encrusted with bauxite, studded with ice, decorated with gold, and adorned with hanging rings of magma. This fortress menaces with spikes of steel, iron, bronze, and silver. On the fortress is an image of an image of cheese in pitchblende.

On the fortress is an image of a megaweapon in gold, silver, jet, obsidian and adamantine. The goblins are burning.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

The ending of False Gods has Fulgrim clearly in possession of the Anathame.Fulgrim has Fulgrim with the Laer Blade and the Fireblade.

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer:

Originally Posted by Fulgrim(book), pages 362-363

Vespasian now saw that his lord and master had three swords laid out before him. Fireblade lay pointed at a statue of Marius Vairosean, the ... silver sword of the Laer pointed at one of Julius Kaesoron. A weapon with a glittering grey blade and golden hilt lay in a shattered piece of marble sitting between the two statues...

Given that that last weapon fits the anathame's description, yes. Fulgrim had three swords.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Okay, explain that one to me. How exactly did the Imperium get the Gene-seed from the Thousand sons they'd need to establish a chapter? Especially without knowing where it's from, since no sane person would knowingly use the gene-seed of a chapter that fell to chaos.

I could also imagine that the Imperium still keeps the original geneseed around, for whatever reasons. Could that be?

Another question: it is said that there are about one SM for every planet, making it about one million SM. Does anyone know how the rate would be for guardsmen? How many guardsmen are there? And how many are there on the typical worlds?

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

I remember that in the Cain books, his various regiments never number much over 1000.

As for the total number of guardsmen? Let us do some simple extrapolation.

About a million planets in the imperium. Give or take. Assume an average population of 1 billion people per planet. Hive worlds contain more, feral, death and agriworlds probably contain quite less. That puts us at about 10^15 people as the population for the imperium as a whole. Assuming a total war footing at a somewhat unsustainable enlistment rate of 30%, quite appropriate for the GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FUTURE, we still have well over 300 QUADRILLION soldiers in the imperial guard. Margin of error here is probably 4 powers of 10 or so. But either way. MANY MANS.

Last edited by iyaerP; 2011-12-09 at 05:47 AM.

Claspedchurches: This is a mudstone dwarven fortress. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It is encrusted with bauxite, studded with ice, decorated with gold, and adorned with hanging rings of magma. This fortress menaces with spikes of steel, iron, bronze, and silver. On the fortress is an image of an image of cheese in pitchblende.

On the fortress is an image of a megaweapon in gold, silver, jet, obsidian and adamantine. The goblins are burning.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

Another question: it is said that there are about one SM for every planet, making it about one million SM. Does anyone know how the rate would be for guardsmen? How many guardsmen are there? And how many are there on the typical worlds?

I was rather bemused when it occurred to me recently that, if all WH40k players (or rather all WH40k players who own some Space Marines) got together, with all of their models, there is a very good chance they would actually have more Marine miniatures there than there officially are Space Marines in the actual WH40k universe. One million Space Marines? I would be rather surprised if GW has not already sold a lot more Space Marine miniatures than that over the years.

This is even more extreme with Grey Knights - even though much less people play those, the number of minis surely outnumbers the "real" Grey Knights by orders of magnitude. Heck, just a single Grey Knight army organization plan - 3 Elites, 6 Troops, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support, an army that could be owned and played by a single player, can theoretically field just about half of all the psycannons that officially exist in the WH40k universe, and have more Purifiers than exist in the entire chapter most of the time!

Meanwhile, with the Imperial Guard, if every single human on our present day Earth owned a thousand Imperial Guard models - it would still be short of the "real" Imperial Guard by orders of magnitude. Most likely by quite many orders of magnitude, even.

Last edited by Winterwind; 2011-12-09 at 05:23 AM.

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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by Squark

Frankly, the entire argument is starting to devolve into ad hominem and strawmanning (And a dash of Anecdotal Fallacy) (There's a bit of guilt on both sides), so I think both sides need to, at least, tone it down a notch.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

And thats because bomb is a bad analog, a more fitting one would be "virus"

Yet not even in the darkest times of story the way to deal with a plague was to torch the country and all the peoples on it. The typical procedure is to try to find a cure or at least proper isolation/detection methods.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

That, more than anything just destroys your integrity and I wont bother replying to anything else since the rest of your argument is Straw Mans and exaggerated hyperbole that I typically expect from other places in the bowels of the 'net.

"Anything else"? You only replied to one other of my posts, and it wasn't even related to the ongoing discussion. The fact you can't even counter my arguments just proves my points, whereas the other posters at least show their own views. But whatever, suit yourself.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Lorgar was twisted from one bad experience with Dad. Chaos had nothing to do with it until much later.
Angron was twisted when he had implants put in his head and Dad took him against his will and watched all his people die when Dad could have intervened - he was there!
Curze/Night Haunter was ruined from the start.
Alpharius was loyal to Horus, not to the Emperor. Because the Emperor wasn't the one to find Alphy in the first place. Plus everyone was a d* to him.
Magnus was denounced by Dad and was angry when Russ was sent to kill him, and later more angry when he found out Dad wanted to put him in the throne.
Mortarion had no friends.
Perturabo realised that he was not on a Unity Crusade, just on a killing spree and the Emperor was doing it wrong.

Ah, I must thank you for actually suporting my points! Seven primarchs going bad whitout need of chaos starting anything goes a long way to show how corrupt the IoM can be just by itself!

Also Ward's a true treasure trove for this subject, I keep finding new stuff every time I re-read one of his works. For example, if you find a super anti-chaos artifact (like stoping daemons from entering our world in a light-year radius), Inquisitors will go out of their way to blow up said artifact out of petty rivarlies (along some billions of people)!

Originally Posted by Winterwind

Meanwhile, with the Imperial Guard, if every single human on our present day Earth owned a thousand Imperial Guard models - it would still be short of the "real" Imperial Guard by orders of magnitude. Most likely by quite many orders of magnitude, even.

Not really. One million worlds each with an average population of billions results in around one quadrillion people. Since you can't really afford to have more than 1% of the population in permanent military service, we're looking at tens of trillions of guardsmen. So 7 trillions of guardsmen minis on Earth is actually pretty close.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Yet not even in the darkest times of story the way to deal with a plague was to torch the country and all the peoples on it. The typical procedure is to try to find a cure or at least proper isolation/detection methods

There are times where it would certainly have been the best solution, if people had had the stomack to do so.

And this isnt just a normal virus we are dealing with, it can be compared to a zombie virus where there on average isnt any loss of intellect, and where early stages of zombies cant be detected visualy.

No wonder people are ready to blow up planets or hive cities to get rid of this.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

actually, zombie virus is a pretty good analogy. World War Z (the book) gives a few good examples of ways to deal with it. At one point the russians chem-gas a refugee trail just to flush out the affected and this is lauded as terrible-but-effective.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by deuterio12

The fact you can't even counter my arguments just proves my points, whereas the other posters at least show their own views. But whatever, suit yourself.

You've misread 'unwilling to do so' as 'inability to do so'. I've proved time and again that I know plenty about the fluff. I've read the discussion and you just refuse to be budged no matter the circumstance so it doesn't matter what I say. Frankly, I've got better things to do with my time than argue about fictional facts. Like painting for the Christmas Comp which I'm woefully under-prepared for.

Ah, I must thank you for actually suporting my points! Seven primarchs going bad whitout need of chaos starting anything goes a long way to show how corrupt the IoM can be just by itself!

Well, yes. I'll never disagree that the Imperium is corrupt. That's how Chaos is able to influence it so easily. That's kind of the point of GrimDark. That no matter how good you are on the outside, the inside is a rotten core. The problem is that you're oversimplifying it for no really good reason.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2011-12-09 at 07:02 AM.

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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

The Blood angels were a part of the Thousand sons that were away from home when wolf-scat hit the fan, they are a sort-of first founding chapter.

It is still unclear how they got back in touch with the imperium without being set on fire though.

Chances are, the loyalist Thousand Sons saw what was happening during the Heresy and focused on surviving the war.
Afterwards they probably decided to change their name and get new armour paint job and the new Blood Ravens hid what evidence was left of their Thousand Sons history.

As for how they got back into touch without being set on fire, they probably came in out of the blue during a conflict with an offer of helping imperial forces. There have been a number of splinter and remmnant chapters that have either wandered off or got lost over the years and come back into the Imperium's fold this way - the Space Sharks for example during the Badab War.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

Chances are, the loyalist Thousand Sons saw what was happening during the Heresy and focused on surviving the war.
Afterwards they probably decided to change their name and get new armour paint job and the new Blood Ravens hid what evidence was left of their Thousand Sons history.

That is the obvious part

As for how they got back into touch without being set on fire, they probably came in out of the blue during a conflict with an offer of helping imperial forces. There have been a number of splinter and remmnant chapters that have either wandered off or got lost over the years and come back into the Imperium's fold this way - the Space Sharks for example during the Badab War.

Do you think this is a plausible enough retcon?

[/QUOTE]
The problem is the time between the horus heresy and the point where a lost chapter showing up gets plausible. I'd assume that for quite a while after the second founding every chapters heritage was well documented so we are talking third founding on the earliest and lexicanum puts that at the start of M32, a thousand years after the second founding. A thousand years in which they have to stay hidden. The blood ravens own histories start in M37, seven thousand years after the Heresy. Thats a lot of time to fill.

Imagine this, for seven thousand years:
time M34.532
+++Sender: the Battle Barge Litany of Fury Emperors Aquila+++
Space marine: Hail, governor! we are the who are we this time again? we are the Eagle warriors! We have come to your planet for recruitment!
Governor: Welcome honoured brothers! Pray tell, what brings you to this humble planet? I thought the eagle warriors are three sectors away?
Space marine: they are? well crap Uhm it was a warpstorm. Yeah, the warp did it. So please just let us recruit some of your psykers and we will be off again.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Ah, I must thank you for actually suporting my points! Seven primarchs going bad whitout need of chaos starting anything goes a long way to show how corrupt the IoM can be just by itself!

Except their corruption had nothing to do with the Imperium, at least not the Imperium as an institution:

Angron - turned crazy by non-Imperial slave owners. Ignored orders to not put the red nails in his men, turning a lot of them crazy.

Mortarion - Raised by alien (possibly Dark Eldar), which doesn't help, he was betrayed by Typhus who was corrupt from the get-go.

Magnus - Made deal with Tzeentch before he met the Emperor, fall came due to his breaking of the Emperor's laws.

Lorgar - Corrupted by Erebus, who never renounced the Chaos worship he had before the Emperor arrived. Also thought he was putting humanity on the path to true enlightenment.

Alpharius - did what he thought was right to stop Chaos in the long run.

Fulgrim - hubris combined with naiveté, plain and simple. When he realised he was out of his depth and had made a terrible mistake, a Daemon posessed him.

Horus - was an idiot who was tricked by Chaos and betrayed by his own men into creating the horrible edifice of the modern day Imperium through destroying the works of the Crusade.

The only ones the Imperium could be faulted for (and then only in part) are Curze for being forced into the role of bogeyman given his already damaged psyche from landing in Gotham City a non-Imperial crapsack world. The other is Peturabo, who basically threw a temper tantrum because he didn't like guard duty and lost it completely when his world rebelled.
Neither of those really have to do with corruption either, just the Primarchs rebelling against their assigned roles.

Most of the traitors turned traitor due to petty jealousies with each other played upon by the corrupted legionnaires, or due to misunderstanding or underestimating chaos (Lorgar and Magnus respectively). Many of them did things despite the Emperor specifically saying "do not do this thing", which really didn't help matters (Angron, Lorgar, Magnus).
The lack of understanding of the role of chaos is pretty fundamental, as most of the traitors don't even realise they're working for the Chaos gods until much later. For instance in the end of Nemesis a huge sacrifice is performed with the victims arranged in an eight-pointed star. Some of the watching Sons of Horus don't understand why they're doing it, and are troubled by it.
Lorgar is horrified by what happens to Fulgrim when he discovers the truth, as he thinks the warp powers just want to party
(Aurelian).
Magnus thinks he's smarter than Tzeentch, making a deal he comes to regret after breaking the Emperor's laws (A Thousand Sons).

The Emperor himself is guilty of this too, thinking that supressing the knowledge of the warp powers would be enough to stop them - but then again he has to be or the whole story would break down.

Though it's not mentioned much nowadays, some of the older background material relates how the Chaos Legions hate themselves for what they've become, but because they're twisted by chaos they blame the Imperium for letting it happen to them.

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Princess in the sheets.
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