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Let's compare the system EQ used versus the automated LFG systems they use now.

EQ:

Engaging with another player for the first time, asking that player if they would like to group, discussing what their goals are, helping them get to your camp, running with them to the camp, helping them get rezzed, engaging with other groups to check for a good spot, learning about each other. Becoming friends.

VERSUS

Current MMO:

Automated LF-dungeon bla bla bla, directly zone into the zone, zerg everything for 20 minutes, never say a word and not even saying bye.

I know one of them created a community, and it sure as hell is not the automated LFG garbage they keep releasing.

Uh my GUILD created a community in EQ. Spamming LFG most certainly did not. I could not recall a single one of the LFG spammers, my guild mates on the other hand I remember quite vividly, and still chat to them to this day.

Spamming LFG is not social, its annoying. Making friends WHILE you group is social. Adding them to a friends list and grouping with them later is social. Sitting around yelling LFG! LFG! LFG! Is not social. WoW was not anti-social because of the LFG tool. There was already very little reason to chat to people you didn't know because the encounters were so easy. Challenge is what brings people together in MMOs.

You arent roleplaying in a tavern saying 'Oh hello good Sir, would you like to partake in a grand adventure with me? There will be glorious treasure and experiences to last a lifetime!'. Thats not how it works.

Your choices are:

1) Put up with annoying LFG spam which ruins global, zone or area conversations for other players.

2) An automated LFG system which can already filter players based on appropriate class / level / gear to save time and annoyance.

Nothing in the second option stops you from making friends, or creating groups entirely from your friend list / guild if you know that will be a smoother and more enjoyable experience. The first option ruins the social aspect of the game by turning it into a LFG spamfest.

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I think there's no doubt that current MMO communities compare poorly to the older ones but it's not all down to LFG tools. WoW had that problem way before the LFG tool came out, but I'd also say the WoW community got worse after the dungeon finder released.

The problem isn't LFG tools as such, it's when they work across servers. This creates a situation where you know you'll never see anyone again, so what's the point in talking? Why not ninja that loot? Why not be an ass-hat? All because the group members are from different servers.

But it's more than just that. Solo to level cap = bad for community. Don't need others to progress, they're just competition for mobs.

Faster HP/Mana recovery times, no breaks between pulls where you used to chat for a few minutes to pass the time.

Really what we've seen happen is that as MMO's have become more user friendly, more mainstream, more accessible, and yes EASIER to play, the communities of these modern MMO's have deteriorated.

Have LFG systems helped this along? When they cross servers/realms then yes I think they have. But I can't say they ruined things all on their own.

Let's compare the system EQ used versus the automated LFG systems they use now.

EQ:

Engaging with another player for the first time, asking that player if they would like to group, discussing what their goals are, helping them get to your camp, running with them to the camp, helping them get rezzed, engaging with other groups to check for a good spot, learning about each other. Becoming friends.

VERSUS

Current MMO:

Automated LF-dungeon bla bla bla, directly zone into the zone, zerg everything for 20 minutes, never say a word and not even saying bye.

I know one of them created a community, and it sure as hell is not the automated LFG garbage they keep releasing.

Uh my GUILD created a community in EQ. Spamming LFG most certainly did not. I could not recall a single one of the LFG spammers, my guild mates on the other hand I remember quite vividly, and still chat to them to this day.

Spamming LFG is not social, its annoying. Making friends WHILE you group is social. Adding them to a friends list and grouping with them later is social. Sitting around yelling LFG! LFG! LFG! Is not social. WoW was not anti-social because of the LFG tool. There was already very little reason to chat to people you didn't know because the encounters were so easy. Challenge is what brings people together in MMOs.

You arent roleplaying in a tavern saying 'Oh hello good Sir, would you like to partake in a grand adventure with me? There will be glorious treasure and experiences to last a lifetime!'. Thats not how it works.

Your choices are:

1) Put up with annoying LFG spam which ruins global, zone or area conversations for other players.

2) An automated LFG system which can already filter players based on appropriate class / level / gear to save time and annoyance.

Nothing in the second option stops you from making friends, or creating groups entirely from your friend list / guild if you know that will be a smoother and more enjoyable experience. The first option ruins the social aspect of the game by turning it into a LFG spamfest.

I never even mentioned LFG spam in my post, why are you bringing this up?

You know most people didn't make groups in EQ by spamming LFG right? Almost all groups were made by direct communication, either by /say or /tell or friend invites.

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Originally posted by EmrendilIt's not that people has changed. There are more kinds of people out there, Some people prefer this, some people prefer that.

So what changed, the people haven't changed and you don't say it's the game's fault so what is it?

It's the games fault. Easy content = no reason to socialise. People band together for challenges. When something isnt challenging, who cares if you don't have a solid group of players to back you up?

There was very little reason for me to make friends in WoW, because the content was so easy that I could take just about anyone in and still finish it. In Everquest and EQ2 I had to be selective about who I took with me into a dungeon, otherwise the result was a long and painful experience.

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It's a matter of opinion but like many others I prefer the old days of FFXI, L2 and WoW Vanilla where you had to actually organise a Group, and travel to your destination. MMOs noadays just remind me of Phantasy Stay Online. All they are is Hub games. CO-OP RPG's, not MMOs.

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I find that LFG systems make it harder for communities to form because the incentive to form social bonds is reduced since without the LFG systems you know that you either get to know people or you will search for people a lot. I have never been part of a guild/community that was ruined due to LFG systems, people that really want to be social and play together will aim to do so even if a LFG system exists.

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That's a terrible cop-out and you know it, or you never experienced what old MMO were like.

I tried Guild Wars after playing Everquest and the difference was night and day.

I could walk up to a person in pre-luclin Everquest and before I could reach my keys I would have a person throwing buffs on me and saying hi.

In Guild wars it felt like I was thrown into a world where people lost their ability to communicate, no one said anything. I couldn't believe it and thought it was some fluke. But I saw this pattern in more MMO, I saw it in WoW, I saw it in Vindictus, I saw it in FFXIV, I saw it everywhere.

The exception to this rule was Vanguard, people didn't communicate nearly as much as in EQ, but they communicate much more than in games like guild wars.

Communication stands and falls from game design.

Here is an example of Everquest. People sitting next to each other, talking to each other, trading things, making groups.

Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not. In new MMO you join the factory chain called the LFD dungeon seeker and complete your meaningless dungeon, and you keep using that tool because it's far easier to just be a little robot than to actually make friends, because if you had any friends you wouldn't join the LFD. Socialising be damned.

yeah it has nothing at all to do with that 100000x more people are playing these types of games now

EQ would be the same shit if the same people played it back then. Has nothing to do with the game

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I never even mentioned LFG spam in my post, why are you bringing this up?

You know most people didn't make groups in EQ by spamming LFG right? Almost all groups were made by direct communication, either by /say or /tell or friend invites.

You mentioned:

"Engaging with another player for the first time, asking that player if they would like to group, discussing what their goals are, helping them get to your camp, running with them to the camp, helping them get rezzed, engaging with other groups to check for a good spot, learning about each other. Becoming friends."

Which is not the reality. Spamming LFG does not result in any of that. Spamming in LFG gets you into a group, which is the same thing that the automated systems do. Having good challenging content is what leads to the other things, because there is a reason to make friends and work as a team.

Uh back when it launched you had to be near someone to invite, so you would see LFG spam in say outside dungeons or in towns. Thats before they added the LFG tool (which was a fantastic addition and the first step to a dungeon finder).

Also you would get heaps of annoying tells from players asking to group. Not asking how my day or starting some witty banter, just asking for a group. So very social and rewarding!

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What is so importend about community? I am not saying it's not, because it is. The two longest games I played have been games I was part of an awesome community. WAR and Face of Mankind and I founded a guild in WAR with some friend I met in Face of Mankind. Only game I actually ever leved a character to max-level (twice even) was WAR and I think it might have been because of the community I was in.

However does LFG system ruin the community. I don't know really. I think it give access to player who are not that sociable. I am one of those. It's not that I mind talking to people it's just that I am not much of a small talker. So what you then talk about when in a raid? Beside mentioning you never did the raid. I find talking strategy is not needed, because often there is already a standard route/strat people use and everyone always seems to know about them or something.

I guess the benifit of not having a LFG would be that you are forced to talk to people. However even without that system people just joined groups they saw talking in chat and then just joined them without speaking much.

My conclusion would be that the community is not being ruined. It simply is easier accessable by less social people (as in people who communicate less) and that only adds to the community. The same people might still be in that game as when the game did not had the system. So you could still form a good community. Those less social do not have to be bad people or players. Might be if you invite them into you guild when you see them perform good in a raid they open up and end up being nice people and good player.

What would ruin a community is when people believe that certain type of people ruin a community and when they stop building a community. That is what I am seeing a lot of people assuming that a LFG system ruins a community and suddenly makes everyone unsocial. They then decide there is no point of talking in a game because no-one will ever say anything back.

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Originally posted by CalmOceans

So what changed, the people haven't changed and you don't say it's the game's fault so what is it?

Well.. dev's started to listen to the players. Look into what they do in the game. And at the same time kids wanting to be leet started to rampage in wow with the mentality that you are a noob if you aren't max lvl and raiding within 2 weeks. To max out, kids ran dungeons. So dev's put more dungeons in games. And kids wanted everything else sped up. Do you see where finding parties faster fits in? So my answer to your question is that the playerbase as a whole changed as it's demography changed.

The target players are these days 10-30 year old males with average spending age probably 15-18. If you want to change something, you need to convince publishers and devs that your ideas that might not appeal to that demography will still appeal to a large enough number of players to generate profit. I would say, it's easier to argue that more social functions should be added than to argue that a feature desired by many should be removed to force some more social activity.

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That's a terrible cop-out and you know it, or you never experienced what old MMO were like.

I tried Guild Wars after playing Everquest and the difference was night and day.

I could walk up to a person in pre-luclin Everquest and before I could reach my keys I would have a person throwing buffs on me and saying hi.

In Guild wars it felt like I was thrown into a world where people lost their ability to communicate, no one said anything. I couldn't believe it and thought it was some fluke. But I saw this pattern in more MMO, I saw it in WoW, I saw it in Vindictus, I saw it in FFXIV, I saw it everywhere.

The exception to this rule was Vanguard, people didn't communicate nearly as much as in EQ, but they communicate much more than in games like guild wars.

Communication stands and falls from game design.

Here is an example of Everquest. People sitting next to each other, talking to each other, trading things, making groups.

Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not. In new MMO you join the factory chain called the LFD dungeon seeker and complete your meaningless dungeon, and you keep using that tool because it's far easier to just be a little robot than to actually make friends, because if you had any friends you wouldn't join the LFD. Socialising be damned.

yeah it has nothing at all to do with that 100000x more people are playing these types of games now

EQ would be the same shit if the same people played it back then. Has nothing to do with the game

it has everything to do with the game, people didn't suddenly change and stopped longing for social contact, how many people use facebook, twitter, forums, blog posts, people want to communicate more than ever online

and what does the amount of people playing games have to do with anything? if EQ had 1 server or 1 million servers, the game would have socialising, it was the game

here you go, Everquest, people chatting for no reason other than to make friends, the game made this possible, it gave incentive to communicate, it built the community up until every person knew each other and you had huge families of players

it has nothing to do with the people, it's the game

WoW was launched during EQ and the community was much lower in WoW, we had people writing posts about how they came back to EQ because they missed the community, people didn't change, the games changed

That's a terrible cop-out and you know it, or you never experienced what old MMO were like.

I tried Guild Wars after playing Everquest and the difference was night and day.

I could walk up to a person in pre-luclin Everquest and before I could reach my keys I would have a person throwing buffs on me and saying hi.

In Guild wars it felt like I was thrown into a world where people lost their ability to communicate, no one said anything. I couldn't believe it and thought it was some fluke. But I saw this pattern in more MMO, I saw it in WoW, I saw it in Vindictus, I saw it in FFXIV, I saw it everywhere.

The exception to this rule was Vanguard, people didn't communicate nearly as much as in EQ, but they communicate much more than in games like guild wars.

Communication stands and falls from game design.

Here is an example of Everquest. People sitting next to each other, talking to each other, trading things, making groups.

Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not. In new MMO you join the factory chain called the LFD dungeon seeker and complete your meaningless dungeon, and you keep using that tool because it's far easier to just be a little robot than to actually make friends, because if you had any friends you wouldn't join the LFD. Socialising be damned.

yeah it has nothing at all to do with that 100000x more people are playing these types of games now

EQ would be the same shit if the same people played it back then. Has nothing to do with the game

it has everything to do with the game, people didn't suddenly change and stopped longing for social contact, how many people use facebook, twitter, forums, blog posts, people want to communicate more than ever online

and what does the amount of people playing games have to do with anything? if EQ had 1 server or 1 million servers, the game would have socialising, it was the game

here you go, people chatting for no reason other than to make friends, the game made this possible, it gave incentive to communicate, it build the community up until every person knew each other and you had huge families of players

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Originally posted by CalmOceans

Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not. In new MMO you join the factory chain called the LFD dungeon seeker and complete your meaningless dungeon, and you keep using that tool because it's far easier to just be a little robot than to actually make friends, because if you had any friends you wouldn't join the LFD. Socialising be damned.

Who's fault is that?

Everyone who joined the crowd, that's who. Everyone who decided "easier" trumped "better."

LFG isn't the problem. It's the people who use it that are, and that includes those who don't like it but use it anyway.

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Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Emrendil

From wich games is this and how old?

Everquest, March 2005.

Yep, pretty old. The younger generation of players never played those games before. They were too young. They started with Rift, Tera or Guild Wars 2. If you give them EverQuest or any older game to try, they would probably hate it.

Yep, pretty old. The younger generation of players never played those games before. They were too young. They started with Rift, tera or Guild Wars 2. If you give them EverQuest to try now, they'll probably hate it.

SoE uses classic servers, that are started from scratch, they do this every 3 years or so. In every server I played the same community was built.

And EQ non-classic, is not the same anymore as old EQ, for many reasons which I don't feel like explaining, multiboxing, guild lobbies etc.

But try the game when Sony releases a pure classic server and the exact same communities form. It is very much the game, it has didly squat to do with the players.

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it's the the "auto grp" system that are the prob. it's the people's attitude.

sure, there is an easy way. but that's not the whole challange.

i think the best example is WoW atm. they have an awesome "easy" lfr/lfg system.

if you wanna see the lft, you surely can do so, BUT:

if you wanna finnish the challanging parts, you need to setup your own grp, organize, plan, kill yourself.

those raids are on a completely different lvl. you didnt finnish WoW because you managed to clean the LFR.

with several million players online. you DO need a new system. with about 1000 people per server and maybe 10 server per game you had only the pros playing, the geeks. those who wanted to have a challange anyway.

the gaming world changed. yes. there is an easy version. no. it's not the "end" of the world of gaming :)