I get this question asked more times than I can actually count in e-mails, PM's and on forums. The REAL answer here is extremely simply. First you NEVER buy a camera you BUY a SYSTEM and everything about it from back,body, lenses, accessories and such but equally important is software, service , repair, availability in purchase and repair times. Not to mention where is this company going are they financially sound do they put a lot of money in R&D and also rental houses when traveling or whatever reason you may need a rental at any given time. Lets also add loaner service and such. Now before we even get past this part what about the dealer you buy from. Trust me folks i been buying from B&H for almost 40 years and they will not send you a loaner and as good as they are that is NOT what they do. So you need a good dealer for support and when your stuck in the boonies and your software just shit canned who do you call. Your putting out anywhere from 15k to 60 k or more out of your pocket . This is not for the faint at heart and you really need to do your homework. But the first item that is the most important is the back itself and the glass since this is the heart of the system and the most costly. The body is just a go between them but still very important. Personally a body is what it is and my main concern is back, glass and software. If i am going to compromise anywhere it will be the body. But thats me others think differently. As far as what system to buy , do your homework and buy what fits you the best. I chose Phase since it fit me the best at the time and still does. But i also added a Cambo tech cam to my entire system as well and 3 lenses. Plus I have a 35mm system for that type of work that requires it. I just can't get around the one only system given the diversity of shooting I do as much as i have banged my head trying. LOL

I looked at a few and settled on the H3Dii because of the tilt/shift adapter. Guy's analysis is correct - it's the system, and also a good idea to buy from a dealer you can establish a relationship with.

I like the Hy6 platform because of the fast leaf shutter lenses, the various rotating backs/sensors, and the viewfinder options. Other 'nice to have features' are that I can run back and camera from one battery, and the ergonomics.

I agree with Guy, that the body is not inherently as important as the lenses and the back. But the back is freely interchangeable with many choices (you could pick any of the options in the poll, and change the back afterwards); whereas the lens range is not. I rank the lens range as the most important factor. But since the body determines which lens range can be mounted, that indirectly makes the body important too!

Since I have (and really need) such things as a full-frame 645 fisheye and 200/2.8 telephoto, there's only one choice for me - the Mamiya/Phase 645AFD/DF platform, mainly with manual focus lenses.The Rollei 6008AF/Hy6 comes close for fast lenses etc., and the bodies are wonderful, but it's a lot more pricey as a system.

But I dispute one aspect of the poll: I would not pick any of the digital backs listed (IQ/Aptus)! That restricts the whole poll to Dalsa sensors only, and they are just too noisy and restrictive in long exposures. Give us some Kodak options (most P+ backs, Hasselblad CF, Sinar 65LV, etc.) please!

I agree with Guy, that the body is not inherently as important as the lenses and the back. But the back is freely interchangeable with many choices (you could pick any of the options in the poll, and change the back afterwards); whereas the lens range is not. I rank the lens range as the most important factor. But since the body determines which lens range can be mounted, that indirectly makes the body important too!

Since I have (and really need) such things as a full-frame 645 fisheye and 200/2.8 telephoto, there's only one choice for me - the Mamiya/Phase 645AFD/DF platform, mainly with manual focus lenses.The Rollei 6008AF/Hy6 comes close for fast lenses etc., and the bodies are wonderful, but it's a lot more pricey as a system.

But I dispute one aspect of the poll: I would not pick any of the digital backs listed (IQ/Aptus)! That restricts the whole poll to Dalsa sensors only, and they are just too noisy and restrictive in long exposures. Give us some Kodak options (most P+ backs, Hasselblad CF, Sinar 65LV, etc.) please!

Ray

Ray good point on the glass. Lenses are really the restrictive part since they will ONLY fit within the same brand name of body and the backs even at a mount change cost can be moved around the systems. Thanks for adding that. I'm thinking Sinar, Phase and Leaf backs you can but I am not sure on Hassy backs if you can mount change???

Interesting to read that Ray and Guy where you think the body is not as important, and I wonder if you both shoot with the Phase Mamiya 645 bodies then? ... Just kidding!

But seriously, I find the body really important for the following reasons: 1) Viewfinder and focusing are key for me. I need a big, bright viewfinder and having different finder options like WLF, Chimney, 45 and 90 prisms like the Hy6 has make focusing easy in many different circumstances.2) Mirror dampening (or not)... The Hy6/AFi is so well damped I feel comfortable shooting at slow speeds3) Advanced functions - like focus trap and focus stepping and custom settings 4) Ergonomics. Everyone will have their own preferences. I myself find the Rollei 6000 and Hy6 very close to ideal.

Interesting to read that Ray and Guy where you think the body is not as important, and I wonder if you both shoot with the Phase Mamiya 645 bodies then? ... Just kidding!

But seriously, I find the body really important for the following reasons: 1) Viewfinder and focusing are key for me. I need a big, bright viewfinder and having different finder options like WLF, Chimney, 45 and 90 prisms like the Hy6 has make focusing easy in many different circumstances.2) Mirror dampening (or not)... The Hy6/AFi is so well damped I feel comfortable shooting at slow speeds3) Advanced functions - like focus trap and focus stepping and custom settings 4) Ergonomics. Everyone will have their own preferences. I myself find the Rollei 6000 and Hy6 very close to ideal.

Well I think we are both saying it is maybe less important to lenses and back since we can and do have alternates in tech cams as the medium but also bodies are pretty basic items and usually the least amount in costs. But they obviously have importance for sure. Now a new Phase body certainly would put a bigger smile on my face for sure, no denying that ever. LOL

Its not perfect and many Phase shooters feel the same way it is our compromise in the system at large. I would never deny that to anyone. Its good and workable but could be better.

I looked at a few and settled on the H3Dii because of the tilt/shift adapter. Guy's analysis is correct - it's the system, and also a good idea to buy from a dealer you can establish a relationship with.

You can still enjoy it on H4x... with much much better DB

« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 03:07:51 PM by design_freak »

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Best regards,DF

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But I dispute one aspect of the poll: I would not pick any of the digital backs listed (IQ/Aptus)! That restricts the whole poll to Dalsa sensors only, and they are just too noisy and restrictive in long exposures. Give us some Kodak options (most P+ backs, Hasselblad CF, Sinar 65LV, etc.) please!

Ray, at least half of the backs you've listed are no longer in production and the vast majority of MF images in the world are being taken at exposures shorter than 10 seconds.

Kodak Platinum Equity has yet to announce ~5µm CCDs that are larger than 49x37mm which makes its current products less appealing for many typical MF applications

Ray, at least half of the backs you've listed are no longer in production and the vast majority of MF images in the world are being taken at exposures shorter than 10 seconds.

Kodak Platinum Equity has yet to announce ~5µm CCDs that are larger than 49x37mm which makes its current products less appealing for many typical MF applications

Yair

Yair, true; but I didn't see any rule which said that we could only buy brand new equipment! Sometimes older is in fact technically better. And we all know the longevity of MFD backs.

Re. exposures shorter than 10 seconds - don't you feel at all embarassed that your company sells supposedly top-end photographic products, which cannot do one of the very basic things that 100 years of film cameras, and 10 years of cheap CMOS cameras, could (and still can) do, as a fundamental and essential part of the photographer's creative palette?

We owe Leaf a huge debt of gratitude for being among the founding fathers and pioneers of MF digital backs in the '90s, kickstarting our genre; but it's not 1992 or 2001 anymore, and there can be no excuses for inadequate performance, now that the technology has been very mature for a number of years.

I hate the car analogy we always use on here but the fact that a 2 seater high-end sports car cannot be fitted with 2 child seats in the back, which most cheap/ used compact family cars can easily do, does not mean it is not a good sports car or that its manufacturer should be embarrassed because it can't be used for school runs...

There are some very good (photographic) reasons for using Dalsa sensors these days as they do a fantastic job for may typical MF/ LF applications

The OP has listed "P+/ IQ/ Aptus-II" in the poll which I would assume rules out older/ other back models

With such a short flange distance, the S2 could be the new mirrorless camera with a mirror. The Chinese (and Leica) could (does) make lens adapters for other brand lenses. I can put Mamiya, Hasselblad, and Pentax 67 lenses on my 645D. I can even put Leica Visoflex lenses on the 645D.

I'm torn. if phase one df offered the opportunity to work with the film cassette, without hesitation I would choose the body. I hope that colleagues from Phase One to learn to read. I hope that the new body Phase One will offer such an opportunity. Currently, I take into account H4x and Hy6. Hy6 + APTUS II R - really nice combo. h4x + IQ180. Unfortunately, Hasselblad future is uncertain (nothing is known about the new lenses for matching full frame) I really like 35-90 and 28.

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Best regards,DF

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