>Time to stick your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye!<

Don't forget to flush.

rick barclay

09-16-2001

rick barclay

Quote:

Originally posted by MechanicX Hey Rick, were you being sarcastic when you wrote the little article on the first page of this thread?

If you were serious, :(

Wise words from a man of peace, Ghandi:An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind

Does it sound sarcastic? Nobody else thought it was.

:( I guess you don't like it. OK, I'll bite. Why not?

rick barclay

09-17-2001

mfc2themax

If we ever do go to war, then yes, I'll sign up.

09-17-2001

BARJOR

There is no confirmed reports that Afganistan have nuces. But both Pakistan and India do.
~Barjor

09-17-2001

cozman

ahh but an eye for an eye is US policy

and christianity and islam are the two largest religions that say that if someone isn't of your religion they will goto hell, so how can i agree with either side.

09-17-2001

Hillbillie

>if I'n not mistaken you are part of this country, whatever has been done to the country will always indirectly done to you and therefore affect you either directly or indirectly!<

Hmm...like I said, it hasn't affected me personally:

"And another thing, no one wronged me personally on Tuesday."

No one still hasn't wronged me personally, nor have I been affected by what happened on Tuesday yet. My heart goes out to all those affected, but so far, I stand unaffected by this whole ordeal.

Now, if we go into combat, then I'm sure I will get affected. People I know will most likely go fight...

09-17-2001

Theologian

I did- and we won both wars I was involved in.

The cold war (if you get killed you're dead just the same- hot war/cold war) and Dessert Storm.

This wont be as easy as Dessert Storm, I hate to say it but I don't think it will be easy as the Cold War was either and it took us a long time to win that one. And we lost a lot of good people doing it.

If you want to join up- you should. Our military needs good people very badly. If you don't- you shouldn't, we don't need people out there who aren't willing to do the job and do it right.

You can count on this though- we will be blowing something all to bits here pretty soon one way or another.

09-17-2001

Garfield

"Judges are the justice makers of the court. Police are the justice makes of the street. Soldiers are the justice makers of the field."

By: Tariq Colvin* - A glimpse of the horror that took place Tuesday morning. A day of fear, loss, grief and anger. A tragedy for our entire community Muslim and non-Muslim.

We found ourselves trying to understand, to reason, to come to grips with sights and sounds coming in over the airwaves. But how could a disaster so immense, so unexpected, so grave - be understood ?!

Who could have committed such evil? What kind of soul could perpetrate such hatred?
As news came out it was clear. The blame would be placed squarely at the feat of America's Great Satan: Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden.
Calls for restraint and care were drowned out by the lust, though understandable, for revenge. The bearded, sweaty terrorists of every Americans worst nightmare were brought to the fore. It was simple, the enemy was one, the enemy was us (Muslims).
But whoever the perpetrator, whoever is ultimately responsible, we must ask ourselves, "Where in the human soul lay the source of such hatred?" "What could produce such utter desperation and disregard for life?" Without doubt. Tuesday's events didn't appear out of a vacuum. We can never justify or rationalize such a tragedy, but we must attempt to understand WHY !

Yesterday, I discussed this with a teacher. She also though that obscuring the lessons of this tragedy with labels and oversimplifications would only increase the loss.

The reality is that Tuesday's tragedy, a reprehensible crime against humanity, is an expressions of years of pent up frustration, despair, anger and resentment against the United States.

To call the attackers 'crazy', 'senseless', or 'mindless' is to miss the point. The attackers must have been anything but. To lost sight of the context out of which such hatred could flow is to only set the stage for greater tragedies.

If we allow ourselves the easy option of dehumanizing the attackers in our minds, as they must have dehumanized their victims before they ended their lives, then we aid and escalate the cycle of reciprocal violence and lead humanity to darkness beyond imagination.

Were the attackers really so much different than the average American? Retired General Norman Schwartzkopf seemed to think so.
In a recent televised interview he said, "In Iraq we went to great length to avoid civilian casualties .. but these bastards went after civilians. That's the difference between us and them."

But is this the truth, or is this what we'd like be believe about ourselves? In a mid-nineteen nineties interview, CBS Reporter Lesley Stahl questioned the then US Ambassador to the UN, Madeleine Albright, on the post-war sanctions against Iraq : "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, That's more children that died in HIROSHIMA. And -and you know, is the price worth it?"

Albright's reply, "I think this is very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it."
Stahl won both an Emmy and a Dupont-Columbia journalism award for this report, but Albright's comment went virtually unremarked in the U.S. ( Though it received considerable attention in the Middle East). Within six months, Madeleine Albright was unanimously approved by the Senate as U.S. Secretary of State.

Price? Price? A heavy and grave price indeed that lives of five hundred thousands innocent children each with dreams and hopes of their own. Aspirations for their young lives. Laughing and loving sweet things and comfort. Loving play and being naughty just like American children.
How could we (as Americans) allow ourselves to be silent while they died? Did we turn our eyes from their humanity and worth? Did we not indeed commit an unimaginable atrocity? Are we really any different than the perpetrator of tueasdays attack ?
They cried to their mothers for food and comfort. Mothers who could do nothing but tell them who had done this to them. Telling them who had been responsible for the pains in their stomachs.

What would you do if this was how your little one had died? What would you be capable of?
But America told the world that deformities the disease and death were 'Worth no price'. No, these children were raised not on milk, BUT ON THE BREAST OF BURNING HATE. Waiting to express itself in an unthinkable explosion of revenge and vindication.
But let there be no question in the minds of our neighbors, coworkers and friends - The Muslim community stands with you in condemnation of this offense against you. As we stand with the children of Iraq. As we stand with the dispossessed of Palestine. As we stand with all who have been wronged.

Many of us know all too well the taste of lives lost. Ones whom we loved. Ones for whom we cried tears. Ones whose joy and laughter we miss so dearly.

Robert Fisk, a well known reporter in the Independent wrote a report towards understanding this tragedy. He said :

" ... And yes, Osama bin Ladin comes to mind, his money, his theology, his frightening dedication to destroy American power. I have sat in front of bin Laden as he described how his men helped to destroy the Russian army in Afghanistan and thus the Soviet Union. Their boundless confidence allowed them to declare war on America. But this is not the war of democracy verses terror that the world will be asked to believe in the coming days. It is also about American missiles smashing into Palestinian homes and US helicopters firing missiles into a Lebanese ambulance in 1996 and American shells crashing in village called Qana and about a Lebanese militia paid and uniformed by America's Israeli ally hacking and raping and murdering their way through refugee camps ...
... And there will be, inevitably, and quite immorally, an attempt to obscure the historical wrongs and the injustices that lie behind yesterday's firestorms. We will be told about "mindless terrorism", the "mindless" bit being essential if we are not to realize how hated America has become in the land of the birth of three great religions.

Ask an Arab how he responds to 20,000 or 30,000 innocent deaths and he or she will respond as decent people should, that it is an unspeakable crime. But they will ask why we did not use such words about the sanction that have destroyed the lives perhaps half a million children in Iraq, why we did not rage about the seventeen thousands civilians killed in Israel's 1982 invasion of lebanon. And those basic reasons why the Middle East caught fire last September the Israeli occupation of Arab land, the dispossession of Palestinians, the bombardments and state-sponsored executions .. all these must be obscured lest they provide the smallest fractional reason for yesterday's mass savagery.
Eight years ago, I helped to make a television series that tried to explain why so many Muslims had come to hate the West. Last night, I remembered some of those Muslims in that film, their families burnt by American-made bombs and weapons. They talked about how no one would help them but God. Theology versus technology, the suicide bomber against the nuclear power. Now we have learnt what this means"
So what are the lessons to be learned from this great disaster?
We must work towards greater mutual understanding. We must listen to each other. We must humanize one another, and this cannot be done at a distance. We cannot afford let bombs teach this moment.

Are we not all God's creatures? Do we not all have stomachs, feel cold, feel pain, and need comfort?
Do we not all deserve to be secure from harm and dispossession?

It is imperative that the Muslims join together as one, for it is through this joining that the Almighty and Wise shall make us strong. It's them imperative that we set our course unto spreading understanding and Mercy. And neutralizing enmity, hate and ignorance.

ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ
Tariq Colvin is a Computer Science Student at University of Michigan, Tariq is an American who converted to Islam more than 9 years ago.

09-17-2001

mfc2themax

>christianity and islam are the two largest religions that say that if someone isn't of your religion they will goto hell<

Islam does not say you will go to hell if you are not a Muslim. Some radical portions of the religion may, but not otherwise.

09-17-2001

rick barclay

>Why Do they Hate America <

They hate us because we are a democracy and stand for
everything they are not. Why do so many people, including muslims, fleeing
terror, oppression, and poverty come to this country? Where
else in the world does one experience the religious tolerance
shown in the United States? Where else can a woman speak
her mind so freely? Dress as she pleases? Work at a venue
of her own choosing? Where? IRan? Iraq? Afghanistan?
Saudi Arabia?

There's more religious freedom in Israel than in any Islamic
state. Freedom. Open society. These are the reasons they
hate us--not because of any ridiculous estimates regarding
children dying. They hate us because they are evil and we are good.

I speak not of of arabs or muslims in general, but only those
who attack and murder our citizens for their own twisted, demented
reasons.

If you watch tv and listen to reports today you should come
to the conclusion that the debate is over. We are at war;
terroism is the focal point of this war, and the war will not
end until one side or the other is victorious. Consensus among
those close to the President are espousing the same viewpoint
I offered to this forum last week: you are either part of the problem,
or you are part of the solution. If you want names try these:
Newt Gingrich, Michael Ledeer, Jeanne Fitzpatrick (the moderator), and two other members of a panel discussion sponsored by the American Entrerprise Institue in Washington, D.C. last Friday.

Oh, and welcome back to mfctothemax :) . Unfortunately you
contradicted yourself.

rick barclay

09-17-2001

doubleanti

>Hey!!! The joiners are gaining on the non-joiners! Pretty soon
we'll have enough to form a cprogramming platoon! Anybody
here know how to program a nuke?

niice...

eye for eye = blind... niice....

09-18-2001

Betazep

>The bible says "Turn the other cheek."

Ummm... the crusades? Christian holy wars?

The bible can be translated many ways to meet the needs of those that want to see what they want to see.

***********************

You guys need to remember that their are four military organizations (not counting the Coast Guard). You could go into the Navy and shoot missles from 500 miles away or support the ships at home or underway. You could go into the Airforce and stay in cushy houses with manacured lawns and support long distance plane attacks from Germany. You could join the Marines and see a lot of action. And you can join the Army (as many people seem to think about first when thinking of being drafted or supporting their government) and nobly battle at the front line.

I chose the Navy during a time of peace... I got lots of schooling in electronics and rf communications. I got all of my college paid for and 30K for college on my way out.

I will probably get called up to support my country again, and I am ready for it. This country, and the Navy, has helped make me a terrific man, a great father, a loving husband, and a college graduate.

If chosen, I will gladly fight for this country to the best of my ability so that my baby boy has all of the freedoms that I have come to know as rights.

They surely can take my life... but they will never take my right to live without tyranny and terror. They will never take away my freedom, and I certainly won't stand for them to take away yours....

~Betazep

09-18-2001

novacain

Its been a while but I remember this from school. The poet was Wilfred Owen, a Leuitenant in the English Army in WW1, killed on the Somme 1917.

"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori."

[There is no greater glory than to die for one's country]

In my opinion nothing has caused as much bloodshed as religon.

As I read the US peoples posts I can't help thinking that is how the terrorist must have felt. There is nothing else we can do but.........
They started it so we will finish it........

09-18-2001

nvoigt

You can't escape either seing the tower collapse again and again
or viewing one of those countless talkshows with 'experts' all
day long here. One of these experts said some remarkable
things. It's not my oppinion, but it's something to think about.
Obviously he talked in german, so this is a summary as well as
translation:

We know the US can go to war. They have proven it many times.
And they will go to war again. But do they have the guts it takes
to win this fight ? Can they belly the countless casualties it will
take on their side ? They want war, understandably so. But do
they realize it's their brothers and sisters coming home in body
bags ?
The last war the actually won was 55 years ago. Look at what
happened in between. They dropped more bombs on north
vietnam than over all of europe in WWII. And still, charlie killed
them. They had superior technology, and it didn't help them
rout an army of enthusiastic fanatics with handguns.
Look at Somalia. Can you remember the outcry when two
of their helicopter pilots were killed in the streets ? One month
later they were out of there. This is going to be a war. Can you
imagine how many people we will see live on CNN dying right
in our living room ? Can they stand to see their people die
every day ? Their friends ? Their husbands ? Their children ?

Russia tried to invade Afghanistan once. They didn't manage.
In he progress they bombed it all to pieces. What makes the
US think they can win a war like this ? What do they think they
can bomb ? Tents ? Wells ? Camel-herds ?
They will need ground troops. And ground troops will die.
Can they afford their people to die ? It's easy and understandable
to call for war. It's all but easy to fight one.

We can only pray that their hatred will not fade, because once
they see the reality of what they are calling for, they will lose.
Again.

Note:
This is not neccessarily my oppinion, but something to think about.