/m/steroids

Reader Comments and Retorts

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

I can't belivee that no one has brought this up in this thread until post 40--IT IS ILLEGAL FOR MLB TO LEAK THIS siit!!!!! Under the current CBA, suspensions don't exist (literally, don't exist) until the PLAYER agrees not to fight them

I'd love if once, just once, MLB had a big to-do and internal investigation after a leak and ran the leaker out of town on a rail.

I can't belivee that no one has brought this up in this thread until post 40--IT IS ILLEGAL FOR MLB TO LEAK THIS siit!!!!! Under the current CBA, suspensions don't exist (literally, don't exist) until the PLAYER agrees not to fight them

I'd love if once, just once, MLB had a big to-do and internal investigation after a leak and ran the leaker out of town on a rail.

Naturally, this presumes these leaks aren't intentional HAHAHAHA

Well, everyone got indignant that MLB leaked the Braun test before his appeal hearing (or so they assumed), but when Braun's legal team admitted that the leak originated with someone they had involved in the case, it barely got any attention. Everyone loves to assume that big bad MLB is leaking details to the press to smear its own players.

Okay, so there has to be somebody above Nelson Cruz level but below Ryan Braun level, I guess. Seeing as how Gio Gonzalez was exonerated as having only gotten legal stuff through them...

Cano. There was already a story a few months back about someone who runs his foundation having her name in the Biogenesis files. MLB will probably attempt to prove (with testimony from Bosch) that she was basically a courier for Cano.

Ocam's razor votes no, a thousand times no. The increase in size is due to modern science and nutrition, legal or otherwise. 30 years ago even guys were still doing isometric exercises and their "nutrition" consisted of pizza and beer. Now you've got personal chefs for players, legal supplements like creatine, illegal ones like synthetic T, and lifting programs that are dialed in to the Nth degree to build muscle and core strength.

There is no need to resort to steroids in meat as the explanation, not even close.

Andrew Marchand tweet: "Sr. Yankee official told me team has been informed Cano "is not" in danger of being suspended in Biogenesis scandal"

"... And yet," continued Randy Levine, "we're happy to have Cano's name associated with this, if it helps depress the number of suitors when he becomes a FA this fall, not to mention the # of years and overall $$$ in the offers we're going to have to overbid to keep him."

Andrew Marchand tweet: "Sr. Yankee official told me team has been informed Cano "is not" in danger of being suspended in Biogenesis scandal"

So MLB has told the teams who is and who isn't in the crosshairs here? That's interesting. If that's true then I'm sure we'll see plenty more leaks from "Sr. <team X> official" over the next few weeks.

Harveys, I had the same questions as Zeth....what about Selig's relationship with Attanasio? Is that in good standing? It would seem not to be based on this hunt for Braun...no? I wonder if Selig is jealous that Attanasio is more liked as an owner than Selig was. He is.

I understand that the age kids are reaching puberty has been dropping (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/251762.php). This is also been linked to hormones in meat, at least according to the University of Brighton (http://www.naturalnews.com/030141_hormones_puberty.html). This might affect the size of high school linemen, but probably not professionals.

Straight from the article on the Brighton study:

The researchers attributed the effect of meat largely to improved nutrition.

"Meat is a good source of zinc and iron, requirements for which are high during pregnancy," lead researcher Imogen Rogers said. "A meat-rich diet could be seen as indicating suitable nutritional conditions for a successful pregnancy."

They also talk about "endocrine-disrupting chemicals in the environment" as a possible contributing factor, but they never once discuss animal growth supplements.

Well, now we can fill in those blanks, can't we? With the names of Alex Rodriguez and Ryan Braun, just for starters. But that's not all. The only reason to stop at those two names is that the rest won't fit in a single headline.

What ESPN's T.J. Quinn, Mike Fish and Pedro Gomez are reporting is the list of players who face possible suspensions is actually much longer than the dynamic duo of Braun and A-Rod.

Longer than a lineup card. Longer than two lineup cards. Possibly even longer than that.

And if you believe the rumor mill, Braun and A-Rod might not even be the biggest names on that list. But we're getting way ahead of ourselves on that front.

Where this goes from here all depends on baseball's new best friend, Tony Bosch. He's the human smoking gun in this case, the kind of source that rarely comes along when performance-enhancing drug rumors sweep this beautiful land we live in.

Where this goes from here all depends on baseball's new best friend, Tony Bosch. He's the human smoking gun in this case, the kind of source that rarely comes along when performance-enhancing drug rumors sweep this beautiful land we live in.

And baseball's new BFF will smoke in whichever direction it points in order to avoid the burden of the legal fees he would have needed to fight off its lawsuit, yet couldn't afford. So his testimony is COMPLETELY RELIABLE AND YOU CAN TRUST THEM ON THIS REALLY.

I can't imagine Bosch would cooperate without immunity from both the state and Feds. Can't see how he could implicate any player without implicating himself -- if he tries to do so, would he have any credibility? But why would the government give Bosch immunity to go after low-level users? Because some are famous? Maybe, but that's not how it is supposed to work.

Sorry if I missed something but is Bosch under indictment or something? I googled "Tony Bosch arrested" and found nothing. Why is he agreeing to talk at all? What does he need immunity from? What kind of real trouble is he in that would call for snitching?

imagine braun as the white whale and Selig as capt Ahab
the commissioner cannot see straight on the topic

But can you blame him? Selig testified to Congress that he's been fighting steroids in baseball since before he claims to have first heard about steroids in baseball. For a man with the power to warp time and space, screwing with the collective agreement is child's play.

I don’t know what Ryan Braun or Alex Rodriguez or Nelson Cruz or any of the other players thus far implicated in the Biogenesis mess has done. I don’t know what they’ve taken. I don’t know what they’ve said beyond their curt, lawyerly public statements. I don’t know if they’ve lied. But I know this much: any action Major League Baseball takes against them based on the cooperation of Anthony Bosch is equivalent to erecting a building on a rotten foundation. But of course, baseball has done this before, so it’s not all that surprising that they’ll attempt to do it again.

Thank god that damn Trout didn't win that MVP, that tainted bast*rd! And Harper of course. No way, no one is that good, that young, he must be cheating!! Cheaters...all of them. Death to all cheaters.

Seriously though, MLB can't just come out mention names, that's ludicrous. The guy who initially said Braun, A-rod and Cano was the guy who broke the Melky story, so I don't know, but this guy seems to be able find out some interesting tidbits..

As noted, I'm not aware Bosch is in any trouble with Fed and State authorities, at least not yet. It's not entirely clear what they could charge him with as Drs are allowed to prescribe pretty much whatever they want for any reason as long as they claim it's medically justified. I suppose they can get him for distributing stuff without a prescription (which I assume is the case) but you'd think they'd have charged him with that if they had the evidence. What's his motivation? Book deal? Or is Bosch only going to confirm those are his notebooks but not confirm delivery.

It all seems ... odd. Has from the beginning. I'm perfectly willing to believe some/many baseball players are still using but the stuff in the Bosch notebooks seemed pretty old school stuff that would be detected. Offseason usage they could have a good chance of getting away with but I recall entries about flying places to games to deliver to ARod. If Bosch had Conte's rep as a guy who knows people who know how to cook up undetectable stuff this would be more believable.

That said it would not be surprising if players connected to Miami knew the same dealer.

So I will be interested to see how MLB presents this

MLB presumably presents on possession. This will be hard unless Bosch delivers directly to them I would think. What are the evidence rules in these arb hearings -- preponderance.

Eugene (#46) - Thanks for the comment. It's always good to hear from someone who actually knows labor law. I mean, I can think all I want that "associating" with someone and "possession and use of drugs" can't possibly be the same thing, but it's always nice to know that labor law actually agrees with me, since it's labor law, and not me, who will be involved. Frankly, based on the initial quote, this sounds like just another case of Selig operating as the owners' advocate, trying to win one from those damn players by putting out threats that have no legal chance except in the court of public opinion. When (if) this goes down in flames, Bud will probably blame the legal system and/or the union, probably the union first. I'm sure that will help the next round of labor negotiations go smoothly.... - Brock Hanke

I want to see this, because the cognitive dissonance it created would likely lead to the complete implosion of several sports writers's brains.

Everyone keeps saying this, but the sportswriters have shown no cognitive anxiety when declaring that in the identical acts of taking steroids, the arrogant villains demonstrated their villainy, while the shining heroes betrayed us all.

And a fresh dose of shocky shock for a Jeter (or a Griffey, or a Maddux, or someone else in the official smile pantheon) would only feed right into the BBWAA's "alas, alack, if only we could have suspected" garment-rending that has been their alibi for a decade.

This sort of witch hunt is much worse for the game than PEDs are or could be. I find the whole thing depressingly predictable. I just hope the madness ends before it all devolves into Tour de France level crazy.

I get that baseball wants to be perceived as vigilant, but there's vigilant and then there's batshit crazy. I also get the feeling they want to take down all these guys just to get A-Rod and Braun. Does anyone else get that vibe?

All I know its that the NFL handles it better. Put the testing in place, so you have testing, and then refuse to make a big deal of it, treat it like every other rule and move on with selling your product. MLB seems to think their product includes PED investigations or something.

Hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but does anyone else notice the ethnically lobsided composition of that list?

Forgetting about everything else, just assuming for the sake of argument that a large number of players are presently using PEDs, I can see this being a product of how the distribution networks are formed. Perhaps this stuff passes through friendships and word of mouth (which wouldn't surprise me if it was to some degree tied up with common language/culture. In other words, there's an anglo-centric group of guys buying from some other fellow that just had to the good luck not to be caught.

Just to be clear, (as if it's not obvious) this is entirely speculation on my part...just musing on the topic really.

It's very good that A-Fraud is finally going to be punished for his misdeeds, but I still think he should be banned for life. Hopefully the Yankees will void his contract and his career will be over as a result.

It's very good that A-Fraud is finally going to be punished for his misdeeds, but I still think he should be banned for life. Hopefully the Yankees will void his contract and his career will be over as a result.

Man, I find it fun to root against A-Rod (though I find it funner to root against the Yankees, so no voided contract please), but there seems to be some personal animosity here. Did he blank you at the post office once or something?

What does it mean to "blank" someone, in this context, please? Thank you.

Whoops! I think I've officially started using British slang without thinking about it. It essentially means to ignore someone, or pretend you don't know someone when you meet in a social situation. Very rude.

Verducci was just on Dan Patrick's radio show claiming they'll be able to suspend despite lack of positive test results under the same rationale used when Manny received his first suspension, after he was given a prescription from Bosch's father which included a banned substance. From the AP article at that time:

Ramirez's suspension was based not on a spring training urine test result but rather evidence obtained afterward, a second person familiar with the suspension said, speaking on condition of anonymity because those details were not released. MLB had concluded the spring test was positive, but the person said the players' association would have challenged the result because of "testing issues."

Tests in spring training originally revealed elevated levels of a banned substance in Ramirez's urine sample, according to a source, but the discovery of the hCG use was the result of documentary evidence discovered by MLB investigators and the basis for the suspension. That evidence led to a violation of Section 8.G.2 of MLB's Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program; under that section, a player may be subjected to disciplinary action for "just cause," or evidence not based on a drug test.

Cruelly, my first thought upon opening the paper this morning was that the Rangers might benefit from living without Nelson Cruz for a while; despite an undeniably entertaining home run every now and then, he's a pretty mediocre player overall. And now that David Murphy is developing into a solid reliever, they can go with an outfield of Profar, Martin, and Gentry and they'll catch everything in sight behind Murphy on the mound. Yay!

Tests in spring training originally revealed elevated levels of a banned substance in Ramirez's urine sample, according to a source, but the discovery of the hCG use was the result of documentary evidence discovered by MLB investigators and the basis for the suspension. That evidence led to a violation of Section 8.G.2 of MLB's Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program; under that section, a player may be subjected to disciplinary action for "just cause," or evidence not based on a drug test.

The MLB will invoke this using the thinnest shreds of evidence.

The players association won't allow it and will take it to arbitration, and/or court if necessary. This isn't Manny facing a problematic test with a documentary evidence thrown on top, this is a large number of Players Association members being summarily convicted on a he said, she said testimony.

The MLB will lose because "just cause" is going to require some sort of compelling evidence, none of which has been revealed yet.

Bud Selig will hold up his hands as if to say "see, I've done all I can, it's the players association that's the problem", in an attempt to shame the players association and curry favor with the hack neanderthal contingent of sportswriters.

The players association will tell Selig to STFU this time, they know who they work for and they will only waive their rights so much to assist in these witch hunts. I think once the PA allowed testing, including blood testing and year round testing, they will feel they've bent enough and their job is now to ensure the testing and investigations are done openly, honestly, and fairly, and rigorously respecting the players remaining rights.

under that section, a player may be subjected to disciplinary action for "just cause," or evidence not based on a drug test.

Well...

Every penalty that can be applied under the JDA specifically states that the penalty can be applied for a failed test or other evidence of a violation but in the absence of a failed test, MLB still has to produce the other evidence of a violation. The JDA specifies that players are barred from "using, possessing, selling, facilitating the sale of, distributing, or facilitating the distribution of" prohibited substances. The application of 8.G.2 that Danny references applies only to disciplinary action for violations of the JDA for which specific penalties are not called out elsewhere in Section 8 of the JDA - and specific penalties are called out for use, possession, sale, and distribution.

So Bud Selig has lurched from doing nothing about PEDs, if not overtly encouraging their use, to vendettas against particular players, and running roughshod over the terms of the negotiated CBA and all sense of fairness to suspend people for using PEDs. All in the span of little more than a single decade.

Which leaves the continuing defense of his tenure as commissioner, on this site and elsewhere, all the more puzzling. Put simply, he's a used car salesman and a hack. He always has been and he always will be. His tenure happened to coincide with a boom-cum-bubble in sport worldwide from which baseball has also profited; beyond that, he's been an abject disaster for fans and the aesthetics and elegance of the sport. An abject disaster.

Selig's third act in the steroids saga has been to actively portray his stars as cheaters: Clemens, ARod, Braun, etc.

It's a curious marketing strategy. I suppose in return he gets to claim that he's so Concerned about steroids that he's doing All He Can to rid the game of it. I don't know whether the end is worth the means. My sense is that MLB would have survived just fine no matter how it approached the steroids issue - ignore it, pay it half-hearted attention, smear its players - because none of those various approaches ever affected attendance/revenue.

What this latest approach has done is defame players, including star players, including legends, and throw the HOF into a state of crisis. I'm not sure that was worth it, since nobody except a handful of kooks was going to stop watching had MLB continued to ignore the issue, or simply gave it the NFL treatment.

Gio in January: "I've never used performance enhancing drugs of any kind and I never will. I've never met or spoken with Tony Bosch or used any substance provided by him. Anything said to the contrary is a lie."

If MLB is serious about going after players for "previous statements to MLB officials denying any such connection" to Bosch, they could also go after Gio. But I don't see anything in the JDA that would allow them to suspend anyone for lying to MLB officials.

I've looked through the thread so I know people have speculated but we have no idea why Bosch is cooperating, right? I mean, withouth immunity, turning over actual evidence that would get these guys suspended seems insane. And if he doesn't have actual incriminating evidence, what use is his testimony? I can't imaging MLB would put this out there unless they really think they can win and I can't imagine Bosch acting to help that.