Keeping the title out of the hands of children is not the issue here. The issue is how releasing this title will affect the image of manga in the public's eye.

Yeah, that's a toughy. I sort of lost site of that when I came into these two threads. And already the flame wars have begun, even between certain members and non-members(ugh...it sort of makes me want to run, it is so silly).

...

The problem with worrying about public perception is a catch-22. The only way to ensure that there is no bad perception is to make sure that there is no perception at all. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

Problem with that is then that the market has a demand that it can't supply. No matter how small or big. Which will eventually lead to black market theft.

But if you do decide to supply, you have to deal with people who are going to complain, protest, bitch and moan(in that order). It then comes down to whether the demand is high enough, to offset the people already obtaining illegal copies, as well as the time and effort to deal with its public perception(including lawsuits, and possible effects on sales of other company products).

...

So what is the solution? I don't know. I used to be on the side of not allowing it. But after flipping through it at the store the other day I was like 'whats the big deal'. Then again I am a responsible, non-psychotic mature adult, who knows a little about the country of origin, as well as being a book-worm who has read much worse things in novels. The problem then switchs to the people who might just casually pick this up, niether reading the warnings, nor the description. Boy are they in for a shock. Then there is also the people who know about this and say it is the root of disease in the country, and can't possibly see any humor nor merit to it, but can definitely see that the only thing it does promote is criminal behavior. Which just opens a huge can of worms, as many things that are illegal in society, are also deemed 'cool' by popular media perceptions.

I don't know, all tough questions to be sure. I guess the only way is to make sure anyone who reads this is mature enough to handle it. While at the same time not sick enough to use it as a device through which he means to plan and carry out real life fairyland reenactments. This in turn would cause the public perception to be good, as there would be proof that no crime was being committed or planned. But that is of course impossible.

...
I don't know, I will say it again I guess. This sort of thing isn't really for me, but I think there has also been a bit of an over-reaction.

Last edited by Dargonxtc on Tue May 29, 2007 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

And hear i thought the people at ANN were smart and cool fans where they dont care about loli since it is also a big craze in japan but most people over the issue if you dont like it dont read the book then simple as that maby we can start getting rid of yaoi to since i dont like that.

Last edited by detective392 on Tue May 29, 2007 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

Dude, sex is sex no matter who does it, where you do it, or when you do it.

That's completely and utterly untrue / misleading.

Some sex is "fine" other sex is "wrong." Where the lines are drawn is rather subjective, although there are common norms.

One of these norms is that sex with young children is wrong. From this, we get the fairly common sentiment that anything that sexualizes young children is also wrong.

Whether or not this is true is up to you, but fact is, a lot of people feel that way. And for these people, this topic is not merely wrong, but it's "taboo." Sexualizing children (be they virtual or not) is worse than hardcore porn between monsters and adults, it's worse that graphic representations of mass murder, it's worse than Tammy Faye Baker.

Obviously Zac feels that way too, but the more important aspect of his point is that many people feel that way, and that regardless of what you, Zac, Mr. DeAngelis, or anyone else on this forum thinks, Nymphet will hurt manga's reputation. Zac could be a huge fan of Nymphet and still feel that its release would be harmful for anime/manga's North American image.

It's this aspect that Mr. DeAngelis is taking seriously. He doesn't give a damn that Zac doesn't like the topic of his manga, but he is concerned about protecting his market.

What Mr. DeAngelis is now doing, is trying to figure out whether or not it is safe to publish this title or not (and if it is, how is it safest?). Will it really do a significant amount of harm to anime/manga's reputation, or will the effect be relatively minor, no different than countless questionable manga that have gone before it?

I don't personally know the answer to that question, but I'm clearly not as convinced as some people that Nyphet will hurt said image.

-t

Last edited by Tempest on Tue May 29, 2007 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

I don't even like the series and I was planning on buying multiple copies just to support a relatively untouched genre of manga here in the states in hopes that Seven Seas and other manga publishers would pick up more moe and loli fanservice (NOT PORN) material.

This is exactly why the rest of the internet hates Anime News Network and it’s forum community with such an undying passion. I honestly would have stopped posting here completely after the last loli "debate" if it wasn't for the few friends I've made here that keep me coming back.

I hate all of you.

Well, I for one, value your opinion as well as the opinions of the other posts, no matter how heated they are. I saw several strong arguments on both sides, but I did have to sift through and see past the emotionally-loaded statements to get to the real "meat" of the argument. But I don't even mind these fiery statements, since I know they usually occur in such arguments.

I don't personally know the answer to that question, but I'm clearly not as convinced as some people that Nyphet will hurt said image.
-t

Here's the thing, though: I never said I was convinced Nymphet will harm the image of anime and its fans in America. In fact, I said I wasn't sure, but that maybe that would be a consequence of the series' release.

Here's what I said originally:

Quote:

While I can't possibly endorse this release - the whole concept makes my flesh crawl - so far, not even the hardcore gay porn you find in manga aisles has managed to cause any kind of a stir. This is - I think, anyway - the first lolicon title that's explicit enough to be released here with shrinkwrap, so the potential for danger is probably higher than it is with yaoi manga, but for right now I'm not sure I'd be panicked about this release.

In terms of what's going to cause an outrage and what isn't, I have to look at the hardcore yaoi titles that are already on the shelves now. There hasn't been any great stir over those (yet), which is why I can't say I'm super-panicked about Nymphet being released. I have a strong stance on my opinion of the title, but I never lobbied Seven Seas to not release it. I simply spoke out against its content, and suggested that it might be harmful and dangerous if released. I even included a caveat that suggested I may be wrong about that.

The truth is, nobody out there knows what would've happened if this thing showed up on a Borders shelf. The result of all this arguing is that Seven Seas is wisely taking a step back and evaluating the situation, and allowing bookstores to make an informed choice as to whether or not they want to carry this title. At least, that's what it sounds like they're doing.

Even if you're strongly in favor of lolicon material proliferating in the US, I don't see why that would upset you. Nobody's telling you what you can or can't do.

While I can't possibly endorse this release - the whole concept makes my flesh crawl - so far, not even the hardcore gay porn you find in manga aisles has managed to cause any kind of a stir. This is - I think, anyway - the first lolicon title that's explicit enough to be released here with shrinkwrap, so the potential for danger is probably higher than it is with yaoi manga, but for right now I'm not sure I'd be panicked about this release.

In terms of what's going to cause an outrage and what isn't, I have to look at the hardcore yaoi titles that are already on the shelves now. There hasn't been any great stir over those (yet), which is why I can't say I'm super-panicked about Nymphet being released. I have a strong stance on my opinion of the title, but I never lobbied Seven Seas to not release it. I simply spoke out against its content, and suggested that it might be harmful and dangerous if released. I even included a caveat that suggested I may be wrong about that.

The truth is, nobody out there knows what would've happened if this thing showed up on a Borders shelf. The result of all this arguing is that Seven Seas is wisely taking a step back and evaluating the situation, and allowing bookstores to make an informed choice as to whether or not they want to carry this title. At least, that's what it sounds like they're doing.

Even if you're strongly in favor of lolicon material proliferating in the US, I don't see why that would upset you. Nobody's telling you what you can or can't do.

I think people who enjoy Nymphet or other loli-esque material automatically saw your comments and reacted with a kind of "Here goes Zac bashing lolicon again" mentality. People can get pretty riled up and defensive whenever anyone is critical of what they like and enjoy, it is a natural reaction, but one does not have to take it to the extreme.

I think many people forget that there are those of us who don't agree or like the content of Nymphet, but are not trying to get it permanently delayed or not published at all. I am a part of this "camp" and from Zac's previous statements I believe he is as well. It has every right to be published, I am in no way promoting censorship of the material. However, do I find the content revolting and disgusting? Yes, and I will not purchase it whenever it is released because it is not something I would enjoy.

I don't really understand those who are "blaming" people that disagreed with the content for Seven Seas to temporarily delay its release. The whole "Thanks guys you ruined it for all of us" mentality is a little childish. I think that Seven Seas is handling this quite well, and I am sure that they will eventually publish and release the title in the future once they get the details ironed out.

Edit: Now do I think that it SHOULD be published? Not so much. I would rather that no one even think about wanting to read something like this, but hey, to each his own I guess.

The truth is, nobody out there knows what would've happened if this thing showed up on a Borders shelf. The result of all this arguing is that Seven Seas is wisely taking a step back and evaluating the situation, and allowing bookstores to make an informed choice as to whether or not they want to carry this title. At least, that's what it sounds like they're doing.

I agree with this 100%. As much as I've been irked at the Chicken Littles and the OMG CHILD PORN KILL IT posters, the fact that Seven Seas has apparently decided to take the material directly to the distributors and allowed them to decide whether to carry it or not is a very good choice. I'd rather Seven Seas find a niche and fill it rather than have them get completely run out of various bookstores because people might overreact to this one book.

The people who want to read Nymphet will be able to find it no matter where it's distributed whether it's online or in a brick and mortar shop.

Here's the thing, though: I never said I was convinced Nymphet will harm the image of anime and its fans in America. In fact, I said I wasn't sure, but that maybe that would be a consequence of the series' release.

Sorry, I wasn't referring to you with that comment, I was referring to various others who have commented in this thread. Although, since I referred to your opinions specifically just a few sentences earlier, I can see how my comment could have been unclear.

And hear i thought the people at ANN were smart and cool fans where they don't care about loli since it is also a big craze in japan but most people over the issue if you don't like it don't read the book then simple as that maby we can start getting rid of yaoi to since i don't like that.

See, that's my issue. If this were a slice-of-life type title closer to Shin-chan (which I really don't like, but my teen loves), yeah, I could see it. But the point is the title isn't directed at parents of kids to ooo & ah over fond memories of their kid doing something like that. If the title were a squirm-type outtake of a teacher's worst memories or even a drama of some poor teacher trying to figure out what to do to protect his job when this spoiled brat won't take a "I'm too old, I'm your teacher", but it really seems aimed at people who want to use it as a turn-on.
If it were as innocent as some are making it out to be, the publisher wouldn't be having 2nd thoughts. And if they're having 2nd thoughts, why did they consider licensing it in the first place. I'm as fond of the geeky guy falling face-first in the DDD chest gal harem title, but the more people talk, the more Nymphet sounds as though it belongs in that camp of tittilation & no one should want to be caught dead with that in their collection.

In the realm of manga with sexual themes from Japan I have come to accept many things. Even if I didn't financially support a title by purchasing a copy, as a general rule stories with tasteful sexual themes involving characters that are reasonably represented as individuals who have gone through puberty are fine by me. Contrary to what some people would like to believe, once them hormones have hit, teenagers have urges and a great deal of those stories feature characters that are in middle to high school. And that's fine by me. I like college and beyond tasteful sexual themes too.

From the material I saw before being published, "Nymphet" or from the Japanese, "Time for Children" was a very, very bad idea (and with a title like that, the portents of doom where even worse, IMO), for the US market.

Why?

Because Fathers would be ready to string you by the balls and shoot you if they were told about Nymphet. Mothers would scratch your eyes out and then string you by the balls and shoot you. Adults in the US are very protective of their young and, I believe, any mainstream popular entertainment item that has an obviously pre-pubescent female character acting in a sexual manner inconsistent with her age is like teasing Grizzly bears in the wilds of Alaska.

I for one, want to protect the manga industry in the US. What the Japanese publishers want to do in Japan is their choice. I, as a consumer and amateur expert in pop-culture Japan, will tell you when I think the content is not appropriate for the US. And, sadly, Nymphet, from what I've seen, is it.

Some sex is "fine" other sex is "wrong." Where the lines are drawn is rather subjective, although there are common norms.

One of these norms is that sex with young children is wrong. From this, we get the fairly common sentiment that anything that sexualizes young children is also wrong.

Okay, I can understand where you're coming from on this part. Face it, there's the main reason to have sex, the fun reason, and the bad reason. The bad reason ends up being what we've all been arguing about these past couple of months.

Quote:

Whether or not this is true is up to you, but fact is, a lot of people feel that way. And for these people, this topic is not merely wrong, but it's "taboo." Sexualizing children (be they virtual or not) is worse than hardcore porn between monsters and adults, it's worse that graphic representations of mass murder, it's worse than Tammy Faye Baker.

Obviously Zac feels that way too, but the more important aspect of his point is that many people feel that way, and that regardless of what you, Zac, Mr. DeAngelis, or anyone else on this forum thinks, Nymphet will hurt manga's reputation. Zac could be a huge fan of Nymphet and still feel that its release would be harmful for anime/manga's North American image.

It's this aspect that Mr. DeAngelis is taking seriously. He doesn't give a damn that Zac doesn't like the topic of his manga, but he is concerned about protecting his market.

What Mr. DeAngelis is now doing, is trying to figure out whether or not it is safe to publish this title or not (and if it is, how is it safest?). Will it really do a significant amount of harm to anime/manga's reputation, or will the effect be relatively minor, no different than countless questionable manga that have gone before it?

I don't personally know the answer to that question, but I'm clearly not as convinced as some people that Nyphet will hurt said image.

-t

I think that Mr. DeAngelis is taking a bold step here. One, he delayed the release of the series. Two, he's talking to retailers about this series to make sure they know what they're getting into. The chance that's being taken here is: Will people demonize all manga because of this? That's what it sounds like to me, others just think it's disgusting.

The internet, where they already do. Or there are plenty of legit hentai releases containing obviously underage girls but they just alter the dialogue and/or stick "Age: 18" next to their pictures on the back and its just fine.

Dude, sex is sex no matter who does it, where you do it, or when you do it. Back a few centuries, kids were getting married before they were even teens. The problem with today's society is that some kids cannot mature fast enough, and adults can't teach them the resposibilities and the consequences of having sex. .

Kids can't mature fast enough? We want them to? I thought parents in America are trying to keep their little ones little for perhaps an unreasonable length of time (12 yr olds treated like 8 yr olds)

Back then people also had the life expectancy of pretty pathetic--40 or so? They had high child mortality rates also so they had to start as early as possible to get as many going in case they lost 3 or 4. You surely aren't saying our population is such we need to have 12 yr olds churning out babies, are you?

And if you honestly think sex is sex, you need a shrink.

Part of growing up is being responsible. Part of being responsible is knowing when to say no. A child lacks the capacity to understand what they're accepting. I remember an Oprah ages ago('1990? bacj when I actually watched) where a dad said he let his 5 yr old smoke pot because he asked her & she said yeah. But the thing is, a child can't weigh the pro's & cons--that's why their parent & other responsible adults around them are supposed to. A 5 yr old can't say "I don't care if I get cancer in 39 yrs." An 8 yr old can't say "I don't care if I get a sexually transmitted disease so you can enjoy yourself."

Hopefully someone looked out for you when you were a child--made those decisions. If not, I'm truly sorry for you, but why would you want to spread your pain to another child?

Last I saw, the jury was out on violence & we're not discussing violence in videogames here. I've loved horror srtories & movies for most of my life & have never felt the urge to take a chainsaw to anyone even though I love the Evil Dead movies. My teen watches violent movies & plays violent games(when I last saw her, she was gloating over the number of things one gets to kick in her .hack game) & doesn't beat people up.

Last edited by CCSYueh on Wed May 30, 2007 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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