Cebalrai, your tit-for-tat responses, are of a purely childish nature and beyond annoying, and have become a waste of time... this debate has long been over, but it seems that your persistence on this topic is purely for self-gratification/pleasure, and not constructive...

DoW, despite their reluctance, provided their house-rule. As you've said several times, you don't like it, and are probably demanding that another one is suggested "officially" by DoW (cause you and your gaming group just refuse to do otherwise). Face it, Cebalrai, you're not going to get that pleasure cause DoW have said that they won't change their stance. In fact Cebalrai, it probably wouldn't matter how many "fixes" DoW comes up with... you still will be in disagreeance... unless of course it's YOUR "fix"/house rule. Given that this won't happen, learn to live with what life has to hand you... alternatively, just go right ahead and play the game with whatever house rule you like best... why not even give it a name, "The Cebalrai Ultimate" ruling while your at it, if it will make you feel better...

It's your choice (including your gaming group's and anyone else of similar opinion) to either play with a house rule, exclude the cards altogether, make your own cards, design your own game..... or, don't forget... you still have the option to never play the game again (until possibly, on the blue moon that DoW bends over backwards and implements YOUR suggestion...whatever that may ever be)

As to whether DoW has taken the correct stance on this issue, only time will tell through ongoing sales and the progression of this game.... for now it appears that there has likely been no significant detrimental impact...

I don't even believe that with a whopping 15 forest and 15 hills that dual HR and FF "blended in" with the other cards in the game. No way. Each one of those cards in such dense terrain is going to mean rolling dozens of dice.

I think your definition of 'blended in' is all loosey-goosey. In what way does nuking for dozens of dice over and over again fit in with the rest of the lore card deck?

Also... Lemme call you on this one:

mvettemagred wrote on Wed, 22 August 2007 09:28

This session recap is not to convince anyone that these cards are balanced or not.

Yes it is. That's the whole point of your post - providing evidence to your argument. You can at least be direct here. No need to make a disclaimer.

I should have been more clear on that last section. CF was right -- I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I just try to provide detailed, real-life examples and let each person reach his own conclusion.

As for my definition of 'blended in', I think what needs re-evaluating is your definition of 'impact'. Let me give some more background on my game recap:

The scenario involved an objective; retrieving a holy relic at a Stronghold, located in my lower right corner of the board. That is also where most of the hills were located. Half of the forests were together in the center of the board. So, unless you had units around the central forest or my lower right corner, you were not very exposed to the 'nuke' cards. Also, 2 of the 4 'nukes' occured much later in the game, when there were significantly less units left. And this was an Epic board (think half as dense as Standard Scenario #9). So, just looking at the raw number of hills and forests doesn't tell the whole story.

Other impactful events in the game:
- The killing of my Hill Giant. Happened early, a lucky hit, almost no cost in orders/movement to my opponent, and no Lore cost. Conversely, I had moved him halfway across the board, costing several orders. Definitely a big advantage for my opponent.
- After losing my Giant, my right section was in danger of collapsing. I was able to Counterattack an Advance in the center card and play Move Like the Wind (or whatever the card is that allows free movement through terrain). This allowed me to get my center-section calvary through the central forest to hard by the enemy in the right section. Saved me many orders going around the forest, and really bottled up my opponent's advance toward my Stronghold. Yes, I realize this was a combo play, but in terms of impact, it took away an almost free march in the right section from my opponent and put us back on even footing. Big change in the flow and balance of the game.
- I saved Strength until the end of the game, and used it on my last remaining Goblinoid Calvary in a last ditch effort to get two banners and win. That one extra die allowed me to kill a two-figure calvary unit (a lucky roll), then pursue and kill a one-figure calvary unit. A simple, one-Lore spell at the right time netted me two banners and the game. Since I've NEVER netted two units with a 'nuke' card, I'd say my Strength card was pretty powerful.

What I'm trying to say is, impact in this game is not just measured by numbers. At least in this particular game, that was the case. Unless you look at all the factors, just looking at the numbers doesn't tell the whole story.

Cebalrai, your tit-for-tat responses, are of a purely childish nature and beyond annoying, and have become a waste of time... this debate has long been over, but it seems that your persistence on this topic is purely for self-gratification/pleasure, and not constructive...

DoW, despite their reluctance, provided their house-rule. As you've said several times, you don't like it, and are probably demanding that another one is suggested "officially" by DoW (cause you and your gaming group just refuse to do otherwise). Face it, Cebalrai, you're not going to get that pleasure cause DoW have said that they won't change their stance. In fact Cebalrai, it probably wouldn't matter how many "fixes" DoW comes up with... you still will be in disagreeance... unless of course it's YOUR "fix"/house rule. Given that this won't happen, learn to live with what life has to hand you... alternatively, just go right ahead and play the game with whatever house rule you like best... why not even give it a name, "The Cebalrai Ultimate" ruling while your at it, if it will make you feel better...

It's your choice (including your gaming group's and anyone else of similar opinion) to either play with a house rule, exclude the cards altogether, make your own cards, design your own game..... or, don't forget... you still have the option to never play the game again (until possibly, on the blue moon that DoW bends over backwards and implements YOUR suggestion...whatever that may ever be)

As to whether DoW has taken the correct stance on this issue, only time will tell through ongoing sales and the progression of this game.... for now it appears that there has likely been no significant detrimental impact...

Not at all. Your post is entirely inaccurate in fact. I, like many others, just want official optional cards.

The house rule tossed out by DoW has never been popular on this forum or anywhere else I'm aware of. There are multiple other ways to work these cards that are cool with players like me though.

So... Here's what I have to say to you.

Stop saying that I'll never be satisfied no matter what. Just because DoW tossed out an unpopular mediocre house rule has no bearing on myself and others being satisfied by a well-designed alternate card.

Stop saying that it has to me MY house rule, as if I'm some sort of selfish child. Where is this house rule I'm being a baby about anyway? Answer: NOWHERE. It doesn't exist because you're just making stuff up. Really... Most of your post is based on you making up stuff that never happened.

You literally don't see me even making a rule suggestion at all. So why are you saying that I'm trying to coerce DoW to use MY rule? Man, where are you getting this rubbish?

You did see me organize a list of about ten other people's house rules a while back though, in an effort to help out the BL community. But I wasn't even using that thread to push any ideas of my own, was I? Wow... you left part out of your post for some reason...

And finally, perhaps most of all, stop making digs on me about how I've been continuing to post on the matter. At least until you look in the mirror for Pete's sake.

What I'm trying to say is, impact in this game is not just measured by numbers. At least in this particular game, that was the case. Unless you look at all the factors, just looking at the numbers doesn't tell the whole story.

Cool, I see what you're saying. Clumped up hills in the corner lessened the effect. I think we just have different opinions on what it takes to blend or whatever.

While somewhat watching this thread (and have been the target of one of those nasty 3 cards), I do tend to agree those 3 nasties are a bit on the low side (I believe all of them are 7 lore or maybe 8 max to cast). And if one doesn't have a counter, it can hurt.

Thus has anyone, and this is just a suggestion, so don't hammer me on it, suggested the possibility of 1 hill/forest/stream [most that have a stream usually have 1, or 2 streams at most] is the normal cost for it and that for each additional forest/hill/stream square it costs another 2 lore ? And if so, did it matter ?- i.e. sure it cost more but I suspect still did some nasty.

Or the other possibility is treating it like the chain lightning card and once a miss, it ends.

Just a thought, since I know there is always going to be a debate on these 3 cards. I know they are part of the lore deck, but with usually so many lore cards, the odds of drawing them [assuming not part of the initial 4 drawn] are probably small.

Cab
p.s. assuming I cannot find the DoW answer, please link to it.
(NM - I see it is in the compendium )

It's clear the intent of these cards was to be a widespread yet fickle effect. I compare HR/FF to earthquakes/hurricanes, respectively. These are natural pheonomena (sp?) that effect a large area, but are fickle in terms of what actually takes damage in the affected area and what does not. In an earthquake, depending on where and how the ground shifts and what the ground consists of, can decide if a building is still standing, or if your Battlelore unit is damaged/swallowed by the earth. In a hurricane, flying debris and fallen trees often cause much of the damage/loss of life, while other areas just get wind and rain and are not seriously damaged. (I realize flooding is a real problem in hurricanes, but that problem is more aligned with River Rage in the Battlelore world.)

If you agree with my analogy, then the house rules that attempt to cap the damage potential while still maintaining the fundamental nature of these cards are most appropriate. The DoW house rule is one of these. The other house rule, that keeps the damage in the forest hexes per Cleric level, but caps the damage for hexes adjacent to forest hexes at 1-2 dice, is another example. (If you're next to a forest in a hurricane and a tree falls on you, you're still dead.)

Any house rule that only targets a limited number of the appropriate terrain hexes, or tries to morph the spell into another Chain Lightning/Creeping Doom, fundamentally changes the nature of these spells. DoW felt there is a place in Battlelore for these widespread "natural pheonomena" spells. If you feel a house rule is needed, I suggest you stick with one that maintains the intent of the spells, but caps the damage potential to something you are comfortable with.

if you guys realy hate the cards so much remove them from the game and add the left overs from the other 3 loremasters there problem solved no house rules sanitzie it why dont ya i mean the cleric is the represntive god the creator of life the universe and evrythig its not the clerics power its the power of god a vengfull old teterment type of god anyways

I don't "hate" the cards..just feel for the possible damage they might do, depending on the scenario, that they might be "too cheap" to cast for the lore cost on the card.

Since I think most of the scenarios have at least some forest, and usually there are 6 forests, I'll use that number for Forest Frenzy

And if each item is next to at least another one vs being seperate, the # of squares affected goes down. (2 seperate tiles = 14 squares vs 2 adjacent tiles = 10 squares ).

And thus for 7 lore, you could potentially affect anywhere from 30 squares (3 forest that are together) up to 42 square (each forest seperate and at least 3 squares away from each other). Obviously if more forests are together, the # of squares go down.

And if all 6 forest tiles are together - 18 squares.

But still not bad..7 lore for as low as 18 and up to 42 squares. Of course, only the occupied squares would be affected. And other than the other similar lore cards for the respective hills and stream, there is no other lore card that can do what it does at such a low cost.

I'm just hoping (and I know in all likelihood it probably won't happen but one can hope - since one never knows!) that DoW might look at this 3 cards and maybe revise the base lore cost of these 3 cards, even if it like 4-5 more lore.

And the issue I have with the DoW house rule, is that basically removes 1/2 of the level base lore cards (i.e. depending on the level of the cleric, determines how many die one rolls).
for each lore master :
Warrior = 2
Cleric = 6 (with these 3 gone, would be 3 - see below)
Rogue = 3
Wizard = 4

And thus the only 3 lore cards for cleric would be Heal (1d / level for 1 unit), Healing Mist (2d / level + 3d and thus healed units are ordered) and Chain Lighting (1d/level + 2d - stops when no hits are recorded). Thus would take a good chunk of their level type cards would be gone, but then they would be back with the other 3 loremasters (with Wizards having 1 more than the others).

I guess DoW house rule isn't that bad, but it sure would be nice that maybe some part of it might get the brunt (i.e. the actual unit on the correct land)..I don't recall if DoW's house rule does that or not [a little tired at the moment - will have to look tomorrow!]

Being a little nitpicky here, but that's me at times - the Rogue has 5 level dependent cards: Pick Pocket, False Orders, Stealth, Shadow Walk, and Sneak Attack. The dependancy of Stealth and Sneak Attack is a little subtle and, like with the Wizard's Portal, sometimes forgotten, but in the right conditions can be very important.

If I were playing with someone who wanted the Cleric cards nerfed, my preferred way of handling it is JMcL63's (apologies if credit has been misappropriated ) house rule of the terrain hexes themselves being level dependant and only 1 or 2 static value of dice being rolled against the adjacent terrain hexes to keep both the level dependency of the cards and breadth of the cards intact.

As to the cards being too cheap, I think they are priced with all sorts of terrain configurations taken into account. It is purposeful, I think, that the card is a bargain when its respective terrain type is prevalent during a particular game, and worthless when the same terrain is absent.

I don't "hate" the cards..just feel for the possible damage they might do, depending on the scenario, that they might be "too cheap" to cast for the lore cost on the card.

Since I think most of the scenarios have at least some forest, and usually there are 6 forests, I'll use that number for Forest Frenzy

And if each item is next to at least another one vs being seperate, the # of squares affected goes down. (2 seperate tiles = 14 squares vs 2 adjacent tiles = 10 squares ).

And thus for 7 lore, you could potentially affect anywhere from 30 squares (3 forest that are together) up to 42 square (each forest seperate and at least 3 squares away from each other). Obviously if more forests are together, the # of squares go down.

And if all 6 forest tiles are together - 18 squares.

But still not bad..7 lore for as low as 18 and up to 42 squares. Of course, only the occupied squares would be affected. And other than the other similar lore cards for the respective hills and stream, there is no other lore card that can do what it does at such a low cost.

I'm just hoping (and I know in all likelihood it probably won't happen but one can hope - since one never knows!) that DoW might look at this 3 cards and maybe revise the base lore cost of these 3 cards, even if it like 4-5 more lore.

And the issue I have with the DoW house rule, is that basically removes 1/2 of the level base lore cards (i.e. depending on the level of the cleric, determines how many die one rolls).
for each lore master :
Warrior = 2
Cleric = 6 (with these 3 gone, would be 3 - see below)
Rogue = 3
Wizard = 4

And thus the only 3 lore cards for cleric would be Heal (1d / level for 1 unit), Healing Mist (2d / level + 3d and thus healed units are ordered) and Chain Lighting (1d/level + 2d - stops when no hits are recorded). Thus would take a good chunk of their level type cards would be gone, but then they would be back with the other 3 loremasters (with Wizards having 1 more than the others).

I guess DoW house rule isn't that bad, but it sure would be nice that maybe some part of it might get the brunt (i.e. the actual unit on the correct land)..I don't recall if DoW's house rule does that or not [a little tired at the moment - will have to look tomorrow!]

Cab

Unfortunately though, people tend to move their units to cover, so those 42 squares mean more than their number. Also, a lot of maps have more than 6 forests. Regardless, for only 7 lore it's always a good-to-extraordinary deal.

Unfortunately though, people tend to move their units to cover, so those 42 squares mean more than their number.

Here is a perfect example of why "don't move onto the respective terrain type" does need to be taken into account when facing a level 3 Cleric - or any level of Cleric, for that matter, including zero. One of the well intended purposes of the Cleric cards is to attempt to remove the advantage that terrain may give.

But if you are "frightened" or paranoid about one card, then I guess you'll be keeping to the plain terrain with no other type of terrain around.

And even if there is MORE terrain than 6, there comes a point, when having more will actually cover less (i.e. covering duplicate ground). With only 12 forest tiles, you can cover about 85% of the board (and I did this with minimal thinking) :

And if I thought more about it, I probably could do better with maybe 1 or 2 more tiles. I think it gets the point home that after 12 to 14 tiles, you'll probably cover duplicate squares at some point, if not soon thereafter.

Again, even if the 3 lore spells were reduced to DoW home rules, but DoW rule is a basic 2d with no level mods. Would be nice to maybe go 1/2 way and say the actual terrain (i.e. Forest for FF, Hills for HR, etc) would get the card text and the surrounding areas would be 2d.

Unfortunately though, people tend to move their units to cover, so those 42 squares mean more than their number.

Here is a perfect example of why "don't move onto the respective terrain type" does need to be taken into account when facing a level 3 Cleric - or any level of Cleric, for that matter, including zero. One of the well intended purposes of the Cleric cards is to attempt to remove the advantage that terrain may give.

Okay, so stay 2 spaces away from all hills and forests? Don't attack any enemy units that are on terrain because that means you're next to it? It's best to allow your opponent to gain the tremendous terrain advantage and dominate the game with it?

Besides, terrain is in the game as a strategic element. It's meant to be used and manipulated by each side's army. If the simple presence of a L2-L3 cleric makes it foolish to try to use terrain, that should tell you that these cards just aren't right.

if you guys realy hate the cards so much remove them from the game and add the left overs from the other 3 loremasters there problem solved no house rules sanitzie it why dont ya i mean the cleric is the represntive god the creator of life the universe and evrythig its not the clerics power its the power of god a vengfull old teterment type of god anyways

Roobarb, thankyou very much very good idea. I will just throw the cards away and never tell my friends they even existed. Whole problem gone away without any house rules at all.

if you guys realy hate the cards so much remove them from the game and add the left overs from the other 3 loremasters there problem solved no house rules sanitzie it why dont ya i mean the cleric is the represntive god the creator of life the universe and evrythig its not the clerics power its the power of god a vengfull old teterment type of god anyways

Roobarb, thankyou very much very good idea. I will just throw the cards away and never tell my friends they even existed. Whole problem gone away without any house rules at all.

its a bit strange that someone who whants to sell there 2 copys of the game would give a dam one way or the other:?

I get it, you all have the right to make light of others, but unless people agree with you they should remain silent!

It still does not negate my original post, and no, I only want to sell one copy. You interested? Cards, Dice still sealed, EE and HG included.

no thanks ill profer to give DOW my money and if you what to moan about anything you like go ahead i dont recall saying any one should remain silent (and if i did im truly sorry)imo i have given a water tight salution and helped out the cap and all you can do is come up with snoty coments

To be honest, I would sell both my copies of BL, along with CtA, and Epic if someone wanted them for a great price. It has nothing to do with HR/FF but more to the fact I have no intention of buying sets from now until they come out with the next great thing and end up with tons of boxes that become useless and/or irrelevant.

So, PM if you are interested, as many parts are still wrapped new.
............................................................ ....
I get it, you all have the right to make light of others, but unless people agree with you they should remain silent!

It still does not negate my original post, and no, I only want to sell one copy. You interested? Cards, Dice still sealed, EE and HG included. well i guess some one can change ther mind eh fathfull

Okay, so stay 2 spaces away from all hills and forests? Don't attack any enemy units that are on terrain because that means you're next to it? It's best to allow your opponent to gain the tremendous terrain advantage and dominate the game with it?

Besides, terrain is in the game as a strategic element. It's meant to be used and manipulated by each side's army. If the simple presence of a L2-L3 cleric makes it foolish to try to use terrain, that should tell you that these cards just aren't right.

The suggestion is not "ignore all terrain hexes on the board", the suggestion is, and always has been, except for tongue in cheek responses, choose to limit involvement with certain terrain as the cards lead one. If one is facing the Cleric and holding one of the spells of a particular terrain, venture forth there undaunted, and perhaps even use that card to aid one's conquests there. If holding foiled/dispel, venture forth anywhere undaunted. Monitor the lore levels and be choosey about when to use the terrain accordingly. Or, take a risk and use the terrain with abandon, but wise to coordinate one's assaults with that two space cushion where possible. Turtling among the trees may not be the best use of orders, weigh the risks when considering. As with most all choices in the game, think about what the opponent's likely response is to one's play, and choose the cards that will give one the greatest advantage as one sees it.

Not that you intend it this way, but from reading your responses to suggestions of playing with terrain and dangers presented by the level 3 Cleric to a particular board, it seems that it is hopeless to even take into account the lay of the land when using command cards and adjusting one's decisions accordingly. Just pointing out that the Cleric spells leave plenty of control with the opposing player as to how many dice will be rolled if an opponent chooses to use them during a particular turn - unlike creeping doom, which is only effected by the positioning of the units in relation to each other and not their location upon the board.