WWI Digest 587
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Gotha Photoetch
by GRBroman@aol.com
2) Re: Anatra
by DavidL1217@aol.com
3) Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by Andrew and Rebecca Hall
4) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by "TIM"
5) Re: Barker's Camel
by spbldr
6) 1930's die cast models
by Eric Hotz
7) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by "Don Rinker"
8) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by "TIM"
9) Red Baron II
by Carlos Valdes
10) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
11) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by "Don Rinker"
12) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by Bill Bacon
13) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by Carlos Valdes
14) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by Bill Bacon
15) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
16) Defending Peter M Grosz
by TPTPUMPER@aol.com
17) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
by "Don Rinker"
18) Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings
by "Don Rinker"
19) open letter of thanks
by "TIM"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:26:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: GRBroman@aol.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Gotha Photoetch
Message-ID: <970621122649_845685649@emout11.mail.aol.com>
In a message dated 97-05-26 23:35:03 EDT, you write:
<< >>
> Kevin, I have some old drawings from a harry Woodman article on the Gotha,
do
> you need any more refernces? Glen
Yes, I do. Anything would be a help.
>>
Kevin, I have the copies ready to go, but like a fool, I forgot to ask for
your address. The copies are a little light, but very readable. Anyway, let
me know where to send them and I will send them out to you. Glen
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:28:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: DavidL1217@aol.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Anatra
Message-ID: <970621122829_523133971@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Not bad for what was originally a Frog kit! Brad Hansen referred to this as
the best WWI model. Of course this was in the early 80's.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:08:42 -0700
From: Andrew and Rebecca Hall
To: wwi
Subject: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <33AC18AA.4062@phoenix.net>
TIM wrote:
> I am currently getting ready to build a
> fokker dr1 but I cant locate any drawings or pictures of the cockpit
> layout colors or instruments I have several good books for refrence
> but none provide mewith the pictures i need if somebody could point
> me in the right direction or send me some jpgs or gif files i sure
> would be appreciative this is the only thing holding me up presently
> and also trying to historically verify the collors on dr1425/17 if
> any one can help there to please do
Tim:
>From one new list member/WWI neophyte to another. . . .
You're bound to get some good responses on this one, esp. since you're
dealing with perhaps the most famous individual WWI machine of all. Others
will respond with perhaps more authoritative sources, but this might get you
started.
If, by chance, you're building the big Revell Dr.I, forget the markings shown
on the box and in the instructions. Period.
First, try to get hold of a copy of Squadron/Signal's "In Action" book on the
Fokker Dr.I. If you're in the U.S., it will probably be easier to get hold
of than some of the other, better-documented resources. This volume, as I
recall, has a fairly detailed diagram of the cockpit of a Dr.I. It also has
some nice photos and color diagrams of other Dr.Is, and you might decide
you'd rather model one of those. I did, reproducing von Tutschek's
(spelling?) 404/17 instead. I figured, hell, *every* 10-year-old kid has
done Richthofen -- I'll try something different.
The couple of sources I have largely agree on the general coloring of 425/17,
although the exact shade of red is a subject of some dispute.
Peter Kilduff's Richthofen: Beyond the Legend of the Red Baron (a must-read
if you're really interested in the subject) carries a photo of 425/17 with
the caption that it was dark red on all upper surfaces with a white rudder.
The implication here is that it was a different color on the undersurfaces,
presumably light blue. Also, of course, the machine carried the
straight-sided Greek Cross national emblems with a thick white border, which
had been specified shortly before Richthofen was shot down in April 1918.
Elsewhere, however, Kilduff refers (pp. 199 & 201) to 425/17 as "all-red" or
"all-dark-red."
Carisella & Ryan's Who Killed the Red Baron? also gives some attention to the
markings of 425/17. In the final section, facts and myths of the Richthofen
Legend (p. 273 of the Fawcett paperback edition), they state:
> The color scheme of Richthofen's 425/17 tripe has always
> been a mystery to aviation historians and buffs. Some have
> said that the 425/17 was painted a dull red and others said
> it was a bright red. Through the years Carisella has
> collected some twenty different pieces of fabric from this
> historical aircraft. Several of these pieces have been
> painted a color that fitted either of the above
> descriptions. (Under the red was a layer of sky blue paint.)
> When Carisella attended the Richthofen reunion in West
> Germany in 1968, he asked several surviving members of
> J.G. 1. about the exact color of the 425/17 and they described it
> to the best of their memory as being painted a bright red.
> When shown a piece of the dull red fabric they said that it
> had undoubtedly turned that color due to exposure.
> Carisella believes that Richthofen's 425/17 was painted a
> vermilion red. The tripe was in the process of being
> repainted when the Baron was shot down.
> The rudder of Richthofen's 425/17 was painted white. The
> rest of the aircraft was painted a vermilion red. Even the
> cowling and wheels were painted a bright red.
A couple of interesting points here are that Carisella & Ryan state that (1)
some samples of fabric from the plane had sky blue paint underneath the red,
and (2) that the plane was being repainted when it was lost. If it was
originally red over blue, and was repainted overall red, that would explain
(and support) both versions of the markings.
I gather that, among WWI memorabilia collectors, patches of fabric from
425/17 are rather like pieces of the True Cross -- there are likely more
existing today than there ever were in 1918. ;-)
FWIW, I have seen a lot of images of modern replica triplanes at airshows and
museums, most of which seem to be inspired by Richthofen's red tripes, but I
don't recall ever seeing one that really matched the scheme described above.
I look forward to seeing what other members of the list have to say on this
one.
-----------> Andy Hall
-----------> Galveston, Texas
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:23:42 +0000
From: "TIM"
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <199706211826.OAA08138@pease1.sr.unh.edu>
thanks for the reply it is the big revell version that i want to do
in 425/17 colors i also have the dml 1/48 which i plan to do in one
of the other configs possibly von raben. i have the squadron
publication and it does not include a good view of the cockpit i also
have the fokker dr1 and dvii in world war 1 by schiffer military it
has a nice drawing of the frame work and wings but again no
cockpit(sigh) so im still looking but yes true every 10 year old has
built the red barons tripe it will be a beutifull adition to my
1/32 sopwith camel in my collection which was the hobbycraft kit
(lots of rework required) oh and by the way anybody got any willims
guns they might be willing to part with? thanks for the help with the
color that does explain why the 2 diff versions have been reported
and i have also read about black something or other being added to
the dope which would make it darker
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:10:25 -0400
From: spbldr
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Barker's Camel
Message-ID: <33AC3531.56D3@concentric.net>
David Solosy wrote:
>
> I second Bill B's comments.
> Beeeeeyoodifull profile Bob. Hope you can indulge us with some more.
>
> David S
>
> ----------
> > From: Bill Bacon
> > To: Multiple recipients of list
> > Subject: Re: Barker's Camel
> > Date: 20 June, 1997 4:59 AM
> >
> > Bob Pearson wrote:
> > >
> > > A new page has just been added to the image gallery containing some of
> my
> > > profiles. The first one up is Barker's Camel B6313. It can be seen at
> > > http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/Images/Pearson/
> > >
> > > Bob
> > Bob,
> >
> > Saying that your work is great is a massive understatement. Thank you
> > for sharing your great talent with us.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Bill B.
got it on as wallpaper , its great Roger B
--
ROGER BELANGER
A job worth doing is a job worth doing well
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:47:36 -0800
From: Eric Hotz
To: wwi
Subject: 1930's die cast models
Message-ID:
A little off the topic of WWI aircraft.
I was on my way back from Oak Habor (Washigton State) yesterday when I
stopped at new Texaco gas station and noticed that they were selling die
cast metal airplanes from the 1930's. Most of them had Texaco's logo on
them, or were in Texaco's colors (red and white), but they all looked like
1/48th scale toy airplanes that my father could have received as a child
for Christmas. Has anyone else seen these? This was the first time I even
knew that Texaco issued such things. One was a BeeGee aircraft, while
another was a twin-motor aircraft (I only know a few 1930's
sport/racing/civilian aircraft by sight). Their price range was from $35
to $73 each. They look great, but probably more for a toy collector than a
modeler's perspective.
Eric Hotz
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 15:50:54 -0400
From: "Don Rinker"
To:
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <199706212148.RAA13943@post1.fast.net>
----------
> From: TIM
> publication and it does not include a good view of the cockpit i also
> have the fokker dr1 and dvii in world war 1 by schiffer military it
> has a nice drawing of the frame work and wings but again no
> cockpit(sigh)
There really isn't any cockpit in the formal sense. All you really have is
a
modified marine compass on the right near the seat, an air pump attached
to the right side fuse frame, a throttle quadrant bolted onto the left side
fuse tubing, a pulsator somewhere along the cross frame tube near the
guns, and a tach mounted down at knee level to a fuse frame tube.
That's it other than the seat, floorboards and foot plates, the control
stick with integral throttle and gun switches.
There's also a fuel gauge mounted midway between the guns on some
models.
Positions of just about everything except the compass and the stick
could be ( and was) adjusted to pilot preference.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:52:55 +0000
From: "TIM"
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <199706212355.TAA08798@pease1.sr.unh.edu>
where the floorboards wood? and was the fuselage sides inside the
cockpit fabric? and im assuming the foot plates where metal is this
true
thanks
tim
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:57:54 -0400
From: Carlos Valdes
To: wwi
Subject: Red Baron II
Message-ID: <33AC6A82.645E@conted.gatech.edu>
For those list members interested in flight sims, Jim Wallace and I
visited the Sierra exhibit (associated with the Electronic Entertainment
Expo being held in Atlanta) today and had a chance to play with the
pre-Beta version of this much-anticipated game. Although many features
were not active, there was enough there to convince us that this is
going to be a worthy successor to the venerable Red Baron. The graphics
are great, there's a nice selection of aircraft to fly, the historical
side looks good (there are accurate maps and lists of victories for
each major ace, complete with dates and enemy aircraft types), a variety
of missions, and a choice of starting times and pilot ranks for
campaings. And yes, at some point you'll be able to paint your airplane
in your choice of colors, and head-to-head play will be included
(non-historical situations at first with the historical missions coming
at a later date). The game is scheduled for a September release, so if
you're interested but don't yet have Windows 95, here's your excuse to
upgrade . . .
Carlos
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:24:59 -0700
From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <199706220224.AA14953@ednet1.orednet.org>
Tim writes:
>where the floorboards wood?
All my sources say the two "heel boards", or whatever ya' call
'em, were wood. There weren't any other floorboards save these
two "heel boards" on either side of the control stick.
>and was the fuselage sides inside the
>cockpit fabric?
Yes, basically, but don't forget the plywood fairing on the fuselage
side - that portion would be plywood and not fabric.
and im assuming the foot plates where metal is this
>true
If you mean the "heel boards", no - those were wood according to
all my sources. If you mean the actual rudder pedal bar and
the foot rests, I can't find anything definitive but metal is
probably correct. Yet, wood or metal, the thing would have been
painted, probably with that ubiquitious grey-green primer, and the
appearance would be nearly same, whatever the underlying material.
Cheers,
--
- Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org -
- Cave ab homine unius libri! -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:14:34 -0400
From: "Don Rinker"
To:
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <199706220415.AAA11038@post1.fast.net>
Please update my info on this subject.
I have several photos of crashed Dr-1s that show this non existant
floorboard.
Pete Groz and Ed Ferko prepared a nicely done perpective cutaway
for Air Enthusiast showing a "floorboard extending from the rudder
bar to just aft of the front edge of the seat. Several other drawings
show metal skid plates on the floor. This floorboard as well as the skid
plates are documented in extant drawings for the D-VI the Pete Groz
has. Also the rudder bar drawing exists from the D-VI and is essentially
the same as in the Dr-1. Its a piece of tube with flattened ends, two
horse shaped hoops welded on it and small stiffener bars where it attaches
to the vertical kingpost.
Grey-green is probably correct, but the late Wally Batter and I exchanged
data on all this for years. We did find evidence that the smaller clips and
attachments were "japanned" by the subcontractors that made them.
Jappaning = black paint.
----------
> From: Bill Shatzer
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
> Date: Saturday, June 21, 1997 10:35 PM
>
> All my sources say the two "heel boards", or whatever ya' call
> 'em, were wood. There weren't any other floorboards save these
> two "heel boards" on either side of the control stick.
> and im assuming the foot plates where metal is this
> >true
>
> If you mean the "heel boards", no - those were wood according to
> all my sources. If you mean the actual rudder pedal bar and
> the foot rests, I can't find anything definitive but metal is
> probably correct. Yet, wood or metal, the thing would have been
> painted, probably with that ubiquitious grey-green primer, and the
> appearance would be nearly same, whatever the underlying material.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> - Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org -
>
> - Cave ab homine unius libri! -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 23:27:03 -0500
From: Bill Bacon
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <33ACA997.490A@netjava.net>
TIM wrote:
>
> where the floorboards wood? and was the fuselage sides inside the
> cockpit fabric? and im assuming the foot plates where metal is this
> true
> thanks
> tim
Tim,
Don't remember if anyone pointed out the alieron error. depending which
a/c you are building they should be a matched pair. Also the wing skids
are applicable only to the first 3 a/c.
Cheers,
Bill B.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:04:15 -0400
From: Carlos Valdes
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <33ACA43F.2258@conted.gatech.edu>
Bill Bacon wrote:
Also the wing skids are applicable only to the first 3 a/c.
Bill,
Don't you mean that only the first three preproduction models didn't
have the skids?
Carlos
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:10:55 -0500
From: Bill Bacon
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <33ACB3DF.5E7C@netjava.net>
Carlos Valdes wrote:
>
> Bill Bacon wrote:
>
> Also the wing skids are applicable only to the first 3 a/c.
>
> Bill,
> Don't you mean that only the first three preproduction models didn't
> have the skids?
> Carlos
Carlos et al,
Yes.
Bill B.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 22:31:01 -0700
From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer)
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <199706220531.AA09429@ednet1.orednet.org>
>Please update my info on this subject.
> I have several photos of crashed Dr-1s that show this non existant
> floorboard.
> Pete Groz and Ed Ferko prepared a nicely done perpective cutaway
>for Air Enthusiast showing a "floorboard extending from the rudder
>bar to just aft of the front edge of the seat.
Well, we may be talking about the same thing - although as far as
I can figure out, it isn't -A- floorboard but rather TWO boards,
about six inches wide on either side of the control stick and
extending about as you describe it - from the rudder pedal bar
to about the front of the seat. But there was not, so near as
I can figure out, anything solid underneath these "heel boards".
Would you be willing to share your crash photos with me? I've
got Imrie's book, the Windsock datafile and a half a dozen other
publications with Dr. I crash photos in 'em and I'll be darned
if I can see _anything_ in that area of the cockpit with the
photos I've got.
>Several other drawings
>show metal skid plates on the floor.
OK. I'm willing to be convinced. The datafile doesn't show this
Imrie doesn't show this, and none of my other sources show this
but it's certainly possible. Where did you find these drawings?
Still, ya' gotta wonder just why Fokker would be adding metal
skid plates - unless, of course, the pilots of Jasta Boelcke
did a lot of flying wearing spurs. Metal skid plates would add
weight and consume valuable resources while adding not much at
all to the durability of the aircraft - wood skid plates would
probably outlast the aircraft and, if not, it would be cheap and
simple to replace 'em with a couple of new boards.
But, World War One aircraft design and construction does not,
necessarily, "make sense".
>This floorboard as well as the skid
>plates are documented in extant drawings for the D-VI the Pete Groz
>has.
'Twould be nice of Peter were he to publish this sort of thing
so that those of us without access to his private collection
might have the benefit of this sort of information. Still, not
having an surviving Dr.I secretly stored in my garage for reference,
I'm at the mercy of the reference materials I do have. If they
are wrong, I, alas, am wrong as well.
Personal rant follows: "Secret" information about WW1 aircraft should
_not_ be kept "secret" - it should be published! If it cannot
economically be published commercially, it should be published on
the internet for free! Scholarship is _not_ advanced by keeping
this sort of thing locked up in private collections, accessible
to only the priveleged few! If Peter has these drawings and they
are available to you, I can only ask why they are not available
to everyone?
End of personal rant.
>Also the rudder bar drawing exists from the D-VI and is essentially
>the same as in the Dr-1. Its a piece of tube with flattened ends, two
>horse shaped hoops welded on it and small stiffener bars where it attaches
>to the vertical kingpost.
>Grey-green is probably correct, but the late Wally Batter and I exchanged
>data on all this for years. We did find evidence that the smaller clips and
>attachments were "japanned" by the subcontractors that made them.
>Jappaning = black paint.
Still, we would have to be working in 1/6th scale or larger before we
started worrying about the colors of the clips and attachment
hardware, no?
Cheers and all,
--
- Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org -
- Cave ab homine unius libri! -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 02:20:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: TPTPUMPER@aol.com
To: wwi
Subject: Defending Peter M Grosz
Message-ID: <970622022000_1526055193@emout01.mail.aol.com>
Hello, all!
The comment was made that WWI info should not be "locked up in private
collections", but should be published. The comment was made in connection
with information possessed by Peter M Grosz. While the comment may or may
not have been aimed at Mr Grosz, I must step in and defend him. I have
corresponded with Mr Grosz in the past regarding my WWI passion,
Austro/Hungarian aeroplanes. I have found him to be free and most generous
with his collection, sending me copies of everything from contents of boxes
in storage at the museum in Vienna to 1/48 three-views and/or
baubeschreibungen of particular aircraft. Mr. Grosz can be a bit slow on his
response times, but he is a very busy man, with many irons in many fires.
What he hasn't published thus far, I am confident he will publish in the
future, to the best of his ability. He went through a lot to get his book on
A/H Army Aircraft
published. He agrees with the point made that information should be
available to those interested.
Now allow me to step down off my soapbox. . . .
Have Fun!!
IRA Campbell
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:23:40 -0400
From: "Don Rinker"
To:
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings (was: Help!)
Message-ID: <199706221324.JAA04398@post1.fast.net>
> >Grey-green is probably correct, but the late Wally Batter and I
exchanged
> >data on all this for years. We did find evidence that the smaller clips
and
> >attachments were "japanned" by the subcontractors that made them.
> >Jappaning = black paint.
>
> Still, we would have to be working in 1/6th scale or larger before we
> started worrying about the colors of the clips and attachment
> hardware, no?
Heh heh.... Most of that type of data I collected because I'm ever so
slowly
doing a 1/4 scale repro developed from my own plans and research.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:28:29 -0400
From: "Don Rinker"
To:
Subject: Re: Dr.I 425/17 Markings
Message-ID: <199706221329.JAA04648@post1.fast.net>
I think what was ntended here was that the preproduction
protypes did not have skids.
What i JUSt as important for these particular models is a
large difference in the sahpe of the front cowling lower
section and a completely altered horizontal stabizer shape!
The stab is curved along its outer edged quite markedly.
The lower section of the engine cowl forms a rounded end
"slot" for the cylinders to poke thru....
Ray Rimmels book on Voss shows these details very well
when documenting 103/17
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 07:37:16 +0000
From: "TIM"
To: wwi
Subject: open letter of thanks
Message-ID: <199706221440.KAA10452@pease1.sr.unh.edu>
Thank you!
In my wildest dreams i never expected such a
response to my plea for help it seams i have finnaly found a
excellent resource and hopefully some friends who share the same
pasions as me.
Truly grateful to all
TIM
------------------------------
End of WWI Digest 587
*********************