is it possible for someone to take the video of Avery throwing that is taken in slow motion and from a top perspective and break it into actual individual frames?

if we could lay out each frame sequentially (vertically in the post) and write the explanation of what is happening, why it is happening and when it is happening...i.e. the conceptual ideas Leopard, JHern, JR and the others are trying to convey it might be easier to understand

plus rather than a hand drawn diagram that has it's limits we can actually see and understand the process in relation to a Pro's throw

e.g. a frame of Avery with the disc at the right pec but with an explanation of what happened to get it there and what happens next and the timing of same

it could be done from reach back to follow through...probably quite a few frames mind you

hopefully I am being clear

EDIT: the explanation of the mechanics and concepts would be next to each frame so we get the explanation and picture in a vertical sequence

- I don't like the word "pull" at all. To me, at least, it implies pulling back hard with the arm and shoulders, the kind that makes your elbow move back behind your torso, as in a rowing motion, tug-of-war, or two-man saw. This is most definitely NOT the right idea for a the late effort that goes into the throw. That's what gives a strong arm throw. This was a big hang-up for me. Also, I didn't understand what it meant to "stop the elbow" before either, but now I associate it with the plaster cast holding the elbow out sideways down to the elbow analogy.

- When the arm is nearly extended, it is near its rest position (the position of the arm when relaxed), and it has more strength in that position. It has very little strength in the fully bent elbow position. So trying to throw with your arm early on, before it has uncurled most of the way, would anyways be futile. But Blake is right that when the arm gets closer to full extension that you can apply force. But more importantly, you need to get the arm swinging forward fast using your core muscles in order to get your arm there at top speed, and you also need to bring the elbow opening to a solid steely stop just prior to full extension.

ManU wrote:is it possible for someone to take the video of Avery throwing that is taken in slow motion and from a top perspective and break it into actual individual frames?

if we could lay out each frame sequentially (vertically in the post) and write the explanation of what is happening, why it is happening and when it is happening...i.e. the conceptual ideas Leopard, JHern, JR and the others are trying to convey it might be easier to understand

plus rather than a hand drawn diagram that has it's limits we can actually see and understand the process in relation to a Pro's throw

e.g. a frame of Avery with the disc at the right pec but with an explanation of what happened to get it there and what happens next and the timing of same

it could be done from reach back to follow through...probably quite a few frames mind you

hopefully I am being clear

EDIT: the explanation of the mechanics and concepts would be next to each frame so we get the explanation and picture in a vertical sequence

One problem with that is that Avery and a few other long throwers don't pull the disc into the right pec - they stop around mid chest (it's in tight to the chest though) and that's where their elbow stops. Some of the european throwers come further in before their elbow stops. Check out this video and you can see it clearly:

The video slows down further and further so you can see normal speed, then slower and slower.

It's easy to see in the first pairing of Feldberg and Markus - just freeze the video as soon as you see their lower arm start to move. You'll see that Markus' elbow is much further along than Dave's, that's where they are stopping their elbow and forcing the disc out. That's also around where they start to pull, too.

The next one is Avery and you can see clearly how close the disc is to his chest but that he's not bringing it as far across as Markus. You should also be able to see where Markus actually pulls hard vs just pulling softly to get the disc into position.

Interesting you should point that out. I know a guy that can throw in the upper 400' range and once he tried explaining me how he snapped his wrist and what he showed/described was really a massive wrist roll, the disc held vertically, then snapping it to horizontal at the last minute. Aaron_D throws similarly (at least he used to), I think it may be to get the disc closer to the chest too.

Interesting you should point that out. I know a guy that can throw in the upper 400' range and once he tried explaining me how he snapped his wrist and what he showed/described was really a massive wrist roll, the disc held vertically, then snapping it to horizontal at the last minute. Aaron_D throws similarly (at least he used to), I think it may be to get the disc closer to the chest too.

I'm pretty sure MDR throws like that too. Most people aren't talented enough to put the disc back on plane correctly, but I find my wrist muscles are less loaded on an anhyzer. Meaning that pushing into that position would create an enormous amount of resistance and potential power.

I'm on the fence about going down the path of dissecting Avery Jenkins' drives. That should probably be another thread, eh?

We do this all the time on this forum: watch some video or whatever, and discuss details of positioning, what is moving where and when (but more rarely how and why, which are more important), the disc is this close or that close to the pec, the wrist rolls over/under, using this or that grip, etc.. But we rarely ever talk about the "feel" of the throw, and how to develop the proper feel and rhythm on their own terms. Masterbeato and other jedi masters are always talking about how important "feel" is, but the discussion always gets derailed by tangents about this or that aspect of form alone.

You can watch Avery all day, and you're still not going to know what it feels like to him. You can see his elbow stop (yeah, it stops pointing more forward from his torso than sideway), you can see the disc close to the pec, etc.. And you could go out in a field and put your body into exactly the same positions as he does going in sequence through the throw, but your throw will probably be total crap.

I never thought the best way to do anything well was to exactly emulate somebody else in terms of just "going through the same motions." No, that's not how it works. You have to find out what it really is that makes the other person do that particular thing really well, and dig deeper. And for sure your optimal way of doing things might be different in terms of the motions, but the same underlying principles will be there in common.

That's not to say studying form is not useful. It is! And its also really fun too! But for me it can be a distraction, and has been in the past, and I should warn others of that pitfall before they go off and miss the point of the direction this discussion was previously headed.

Yeah, you do have to get the feel for it. Watching video isn't going to fix anything for you and talking about form won't fix anything by itself either.

But there is benefit in it, I know. I'm proof. I was a 300' thrower, max, prior to the discussions here. Because of the discussions, I feel like my knowledge of what makes a proper throw is 100% better. I've actually birdied holes over 400' (yes, I will admit to having help by wind and downhill slope), but there is NO way I could have come close to that prior to my education here.

I believe your point though, was let's not put all the emphasis on talking about it and forget the feel. We have discussed it though. If you poke around, you'll find discussions about how it feels like a trebuchet when you get it right. How you can feel the weight of the disc in your hand and actually feel yourself throwing it. The discs are really so light that if you throw it, you may or may not feel it's weight at all. However, if you're staying loose and pulling late, you really can feel the disc's weight.

What's important about some of the videos - I'll say this one about Avery, is that you can see that his elbow has stopped for a split second and the forearm is coming around. You can also see *where* he's stopped. He's not that close to the right pec position at all. His elbow isn't pointing at the target, etc. So, as you said, body position isn't everything. However, he *has* stopped the elbow. That has to happen for you to get any real distance.

What you can't see on any video is timing. And you need that in spades to hit the upper levels of distance. That's where it takes getting out in a field and throwing. What I do believe though is if you have an objective and you know what you're trying to do, you can do a better job of fine tuning your throw yourself and getting better.

If you throw weight back or nose up, you can recognize it right away. If you're torquing discs over that you shouldn't be, you have an idea where to look for errors in your form. That speeds up your development and will help you be a better player in the long run.

Fact 1: 300 ft is about as far as most men can throw using primarily the strength of their arm to propel the disc. For women it is closer to 230 ft.

Fact 2: The fact that you get the same distance no matter how you do your step implies that you aren't getting anything out of your legs, which drive your torso, which is the platform for your shoulders...

Your arm is of order 10X less powerful than your legs/torso. Stop throwing with your arm! Your arm is only useful for positioning and gripping, other than that, it is purely passive. Your arm needs to be turned into a whip that is driven by the powerful motion of your legs/hips/torso/shoulders.

Here's an exercise I might suggest:

Stand still with your arms at your side, completely relaxed. Turn your hips and torso back slowly and then rotate your hips quickly to the open position. Your arms should be whipped out and around in a windmill motion, without you using a single muscle in your arms. That's the feeling you should be aiming for.

Next do the same thing, except extend your throwing elbow out sideways from your body and hold it there (as if you put a vice around your shoulder). Allow your lower throwing arm and hand to hang limp from your elbow. Do it as if your arm were asleep and some mechanical device was locked onto your shoulder to keep the elbow pointed out side ways from your torso. Don't allow your elbow to move forward or backward, nor up nor down. It is completely locked in place, as if you no longer even had a shoulder joint and your upper arm were fused into your shoulder so that it would always point out sideways.

Now slowly turn your hips and torso back, and turn them abruptly open again. Don't use a single muscle in your arm! Now you should find that you've turned your arm into a whip. Your lower arm should be whipping forward super-fast. In fact, you can whip your lower arm forward way faster in this manner than your arm muscles could ever dream of doing. Your arm muscle strength decreases rapidly as speed increases, so they are useless anyways...trying to use them will only slow down this motion. You'll find that whipping your lower arm forward in this manner, with the elbow "stopped," will feel relatively effortless in comparison to trying to throw with your arm as you've probably been doing before.

Practice getting this feeling for a while. (Later you can work on the grip and positioning in finer detail, but for now focus on using your legs/hips/torso/shoulders as the powerful motor for whipping your arm forward.)

Thanks for this post, jhern! This has been a huge help for me to figure out how to use my lower body/core to generate power, it's pretty obvious to me now that it's a pretty big part of what's held me back under 300'. I've had throws that go over that now and then and they've felt effortless and I couldn't say for sure why. Having done those drills has helped me string it all together.

Can't wait until I can get out in a field and play around with it with some discs.

No bitchin' here bro... just want to continue getting better. This thread has helped me and others alike to understand more about the motions we put into throwing the disc in general. Which in due time will lead to more distance and precise control.