Alexandros, with really and absolutely no offense meant, there are more people here with the scientific degrees and they can only laugh at your "analysis". It's a disgrace for any real scientific approach.

I have a far more simple explanationAlonso is the undisputable #1 driver, and has been since the first race in 2010 (just like Irvine outqualifying Schumacher in Australia -96 and let him past in the first race)Kimi is having the #2 driver role, as explained by Luca before the season even started.

Ferrari is by far the most political team on the grid and has always been.

The reasons this is an absolutely rubbish theory have been stated many times.

Yes, yes... great exaggeration... Several crashes, numerous pit-wall fiascos etc, all had dubious or exaggerated impact - even when we know exactly how many places were lost, or the possible result that would be attained without these. And as luck would have it, it's just a mere co-incidence that Kimi is right there with Alonso when these stuff don't happen (Spain & Bahrain), or prior to that stuff happening (like first stop strategy fiascos where they are separated by a position or two and rejoin the track with 4 to 7 places differences).

Kimi hasn't had a perfect season in terms of track operations by any means, but they haven't been so woeful that it alone explains the gap to Alonso.

At some point, I think any reasonable person has to admit that Kimi simply hasn't been as quick or effective as Alonso has overall. Its one thing to admit that points-wise, Kimi would obviously be closer to Alonso if things had gone better for him at certain parts of the season, but to say he'd be right there with Alonso or beating him is a huge leap of logic that isn't really supported by anything except very selective parts of races where somebody points to a stint here and there and say, "Look! Kimi is just as fast as Alonso, I told ya!", which I'm sure you'd love to say *proves* something, except for the fact that selective data is by its very nature not very representative of the big picture.

Kimi hasn't had a perfect season in terms of track operations by any means, but they haven't been so woeful that it alone explains the gap to Alonso.

They were and it does.

He has 4 race-affecting crashes (malaysia, monaco, silverstone, hockenheim)... 2 sent him at the back after punctures, one was terminal DNF and the other was a very bad race with the broken front end that the team insisted to keep (pit wall error).

And then we have first pit stop losses (Canada + Austria pit wall strategy from 7th to 14th + "don't drive so fast" orders)...

And of course Australia: KERS+DRS fail+a lot of lost positions under the double pitstop (he was right there behind Alonso) under the SC.

9 GPs.

And of the two "clean" GPs, in Spain Kimi was undermined by his team so that the result is switched in favor of Alonso.

So... there you have it. I'm "exaggerating" things that never happened, apparently.

In terms of impact, of course a Canada pitstop does not carry the same weight as a Monaco crash as they aren't robbing the same points. But in terms of the driver duel you can see the impact these have in creating artificial gaps that aren't really there and which have nothing to do with "driver performance".

The reasons this is an absolutely rubbish theory have been stated many times.

Kimi hasn't had a perfect season in terms of track operations by any means, but they haven't been so woeful that it alone explains the gap to Alonso.

At some point, I think any reasonable person has to admit that Kimi simply hasn't been as quick or effective as Alonso has overall. Its one thing to admit that points-wise, Kimi would obviously be closer to Alonso if things had gone better for him at certain parts of the season, but to say he'd be right there with Alonso or beating him is a huge leap of logic that isn't really supported by anything except very selective parts of races where somebody points to a stint here and there and say, "Look! Kimi is just as fast as Alonso, I told ya!", which I'm sure you'd love to say *proves* something, except for the fact that selective data is by its very nature not very representative of the big picture.

This is a very reasonable and unbiased statement and as Kimi's supporter I agree with everything mentioned above. I do believe he will be much better in the second half. I'm sure will make this car handle the way he wants and I can only hope that track operations improve as well. If he was consistently and marginally less effective like Massa was I would be much more worried but its clear he has fundamental problems. A driver so much less effective than his teammate will never make it to F1 let alone win races and championships.

He has 4 race-affecting crashes (malaysia, monaco, silverstone, hockenheim)... 2 sent him at the back after punctures, one was terminal DNF and the other was a very bad race with the broken front end that the team insisted to keep (pit wall error).

And then we have first pit stop losses (Canada + Austria pit wall strategy from 7th to 14th + "don't drive so fast" orders)...

And of course Australia: KERS+DRS fail+a lot of lost positions under the double pitstop (he was right there behind Alonso) under the SC.

9 GPs.

And of the two "clean" GPs, in Spain Kimi was undermined by his team so that the result is switched in favor of Alonso.

So... there you have it. I'm "exaggerating" things that never happened, apparently.

In terms of impact, of course a Canada pitstop does not carry the same weight as a Monaco crash as they aren't robbing the same points. But in terms of the driver duel you can see the impact these have in creating artificial gaps that aren't really there and which have nothing to do with "driver performance".

As several other have already pointed out numerous times.. These are all biased conclusions from impacts of these incidents. Silvesrtone, Hungary, really?.. come on...

Additionally, part of the gap is also explained by Kimi's starting grid results.. which are way behind Alonso (on average, even excluding Hungary)..

Like it or not, Reliabilty or not, strategy or not.... Kimi needs a good weekend.

If rain strikes, other drivers bang in, PitStop doesn't go to plan, Strategy error is made... There is no escaping these in motor racing, and it 100% falls on the drivers personal result at the end of the day, unfortunate but true. Max Chilton will be forgotten but Monaco-0 Points will remain.

Kimi has gone past what might have been, and into a zone where consistent results is neccessary. Let's hope this weekend is good.

You're doing exactly what I accused you of - exaggerating in order to excuse Kimi from blame. Hell, some of your 'points' aren't even exaggerations, but plain old fabrications.

Why would I need to excuse Kimi from blame when he is not to blame?

Like it or not, Reliabilty or not, strategy or not.... Kimi needs a good weekend.

If rain strikes, other drivers bang in, PitStop doesn't go to plan, Strategy error is made... There is no escaping these in motor racing, and it 100% falls on the drivers personal result at the end of the day, unfortunate but true. Max Chilton will be forgotten but Monaco-0 Points will remain.

Kimi has gone past what might have been, and into a zone where consistent results is neccessary. Let's hope this weekend is good.

Let's hope he keeps it consistent to finish 19-0... I'll be disappointed if he doesn't.

What "really"? Should Kimi beat Alonso while he was DNF'ed? Or should he beat him with a Q17 pos?

Am I exaggerating or are you downplaying the influence of DNFs and the team sending you to the back of the grid?

He dNF once (silverstone) and that was self inflicted .

In Hungary he couldn't beat Alonso because of what happened in Saturday, I agree. However his performance in the race was not on the same level as Alonso's, and not just in this race but in all of the races.

Remember that this has already been brought up before.. He got stuck behind a Sauber..Alonso was screwed with the safety and restarted 8th.. and made it to the podium.. see the difference..

In Hungary he couldn't beat Alonso because of what happened in Saturday, I agree. However his performance in the race was not on the same level as Alonso's, and not just in this race but in all of the races.

The only meaningful comparison is to see clean-air laptimes which Kimi had only a few (and he was doing fine btw). Getting Q17 is not an easy ride to the front in Hungary when you are blocked all the time. Even hamilton and rosberg with the rocketships can have a problem passing in problematic tracks if there is not a significant performance differential.

Kimi showed lack of pace during the weekend (FPs + 1 Q attempt) with the first laps of the medium compound. Thing is, due to the rain, the medium wasn't really raced since most teams opted for soft-soft... His soft pace was excellent all weekend + the race.

Your extrapolation / generalization of Kimi's driving performance into other races, is ...well... what can I say. I'll leave it there...

No, it is not. This is where everything breaks in your thought process. We are assessing the performance in a race, not in qualifying, at this point - for which I am sure you would bring up another excuse - this is not rallying..and drivers are actually supposed to race with other cars you know..

And don't tell me there is no significant performance differential between the Ferrari and a Sauber.. Alonso was posting consecutive purple times on his way to a podium.. so the pace was there but Kimi just couldn't extract it. He ended up 6 because of attrition.. his race was pretty normal, nothing really special there.

No, it is not. This is where everything breaks in your thought process. We are assessing the performance in a race, not in qualifying, at this point - for which I am sure you would bring up another excuse - this is not rallying..and drivers are actually supposed to race with other cars you know..

And don't tell me there is no significant performance differential between the Ferrari and a Sauber.. Alonso was posting consecutive purple times on his way to a podium.. so the pace was there but Kimi just couldn't extract it. He ended up 6 because of attrition.. his race was pretty normal, nothing really special there.

It's not enough to have a faster car. You need to have a significantly faster car to overtake especially in tracks like these. Ask Alonso (Barcelona) vs Kimi this year.... or 2010 vs Petrov. If you really believe that not being able to pass is a sign of weak racing, then Alonso lost the 2010 wdc due to weak racing vs an inferior opponent (Alonso vs Petrov = 1.1s diff in Q). And Abu Dhabi is not Hungaroring btw.

It's not enough to have a faster car. You need to have a significantly faster car to overtake especially in tracks like these. Ask Alonso (Barcelona) vs Kimi this year.... or 2010 vs Petrov. If you really believe that not being able to pass is a sign of weak racing, then Alonso lost the 2010 wdc due to weak racing vs an inferior opponent (Alonso vs Petrov = 1.1s diff in Q). And Abu Dhabi is not Hungaroring btw.

It is not the same track, not the same year, different tires, different regulations, no DRS..

Come on man you are really grasping at straws here.. Alonso was behind faster cars and he passed them.. Kimi is not weak, he is just not as good as Alonso in these conditions, hardly anyone in is.. Perhaps Lewis would be the only other driver capable of pulling something similar.

Also, I just remember Perez raced Hulk hard when the race resumed after the safety and he overtook his teammate .. Hulk then tried to put a move on Perez and crashed..

It is not the same track, not the same year, different tires, different regulations, no DRS..

Come on man you are really grasping at straws here.. Alonso was behind faster cars and he passed them.. Kimi is not weak, he is just not as good as Alonso in these conditions, hardly anyone in is.. Perhaps Lewis would be the only other driver capable of pulling something similar.

As a reminder, in the Hungary race, Alonso passed faster cars with issues - there was no contest.

What are you basing your opinion that Kimi is not as good as Alonso in "these conditions" on? And can you define "these conditions"?

As a reminder, in the Hungary race, Alonso passed faster cars with issues - there was no contest.

What are you basing your opinion that Kimi is not as good as Alonso in "these conditions" on? And can you define "these conditions"?

He still had to be there and race hard to make those passes ..or be close enough.. At least from what we saw on TV, Kimi did not even try to make an attempt to pass Guti.. in comparison see the two Force India drivers racing each other hard in the same laps..

The conditions I was referring to was a still damp track and slicks.. I am sure that Kimi's problem was probably that he didn't feel enough grip/lack of confidence to try and make an early move on the Sauber after the race resumed..

I just cannot picture Alonso sitting behind a Sauber for such a long time after a safety - he is more determined and pushes harder when he knows that his race will be screwed if he doesn't get by a slower car quickly. DRS should help here.. Sauber has a Ferrari engine so no excuse there with lack of power on the straight..

He still had to be there and race hard to make those passes ..or be close enough.. At least from what we saw on TV, Kimi did not even try to make an attempt to pass Guti.. in comparison see the two Force India drivers racing each other hard in the same laps..

The conditions I was referring to was a still damp track and slicks.. I am sure that Kimi's problem was probably that he didn't feel enough grip/lack of confidence to try and make an early move on the Sauber after the race resumed..

I just cannot picture Alonso sitting behind a Sauber for such a long time after a safety - he is more determined and pushes harder when he knows that his race will be screwed if he doesn't get by a slower car quickly. DRS should help here.. Sauber has a Ferrari engine so no excuse there with lack of power on the straight..

But we have seen Alonso sitting behind cars before and we don't always know why he is unable to pass. We assume that the car is not availing him of sufficient power to pass, or there is some other conservation issue. Why would we not reach a similar conclusion for Kimi? Especially when we know at the end of the race he raced Vettel hard enough wheel to wheel to keep him behind for 6th.

But we have seen Alonso sitting behind cars before and we don't always know why he is unable to pass. We assume that the car is not availing him of sufficient power to pass, or there is some other conservation issue. Why would we not reach a similar conclusion for Kimi? Especially when we know at the end of the race he raced Vettel hard enough wheel to wheel to keep him behind for 6th.

If he's been behind a Sauber this year for so many laps, please feel free to bring this up and we can compare..

He raced Vettel towards the end because he is not consistently fast for 100% of the race.. Almost everyone has already seen this.

Side note: In Hungary Hamilton, besides the slow medium compound (~1.7s per lap) also had engine issues:

Q: That aside, Hungary was a superb race from you: coming from the very back and finishing on the podium after slicing through the field like a hot knife through butter. Can you talk us through that?
LH: Yes it was a hell of a race. And this week when they analysed the engine they’ve seen that I lost a lot of power- and if I didn’t have that problem I would have won. There was a huge power loss - almost half a second a lap from my second stop. I was fast - but imagine that half a second on top! I would have past Fernando (Alonso)…

Side note: In Hungary Hamilton, besides the slow medium compound (~1.7s per lap) also had engine issues:

Q: That aside, Hungary was a superb race from you: coming from the very back and finishing on the podium after slicing through the field like a hot knife through butter. Can you talk us through that?
LH: Yes it was a hell of a race. And this week when they analysed the engine they’ve seen that I lost a lot of power- and if I didn’t have that problem I would have won. There was a huge power loss - almost half a second a lap from my second stop. I was fast - but imagine that half a second on top! I would have past Fernando (Alonso)…

What is your point.. ? Most were actually expecting Lewis to pass Alonso at that point since his tires were so old.

What is your point.. ? Most were actually expecting Lewis to pass Alonso at that point since his tires were so old.

3rd still would have been a great result.

I've already stated my point after Hungary when everyone was praising Alonso for a "fantastic" performance.

I said Hungary 2003 = fantastic performance. 3rd/4th fastest car, pole + win, on merit, didn't need others to commit suicide to get the win while 2014 = nothing fantastic. There were 4 cars ahead of him in qualify, of which 3 run into problems (Rosberg + Bottas + Vettel) and the one that didn't (Ricciardo) won. So Alonso took second behind the faster one with no problem and ahead of the Mercs with the issues.

The perception of Alonso doing something impressive was magnified precisely because he kept Hamilton behind him as viewers understand that the Merc is very strong. While we knew how slow the medium were, and the nature of the track, we weren't really aware of the lack of power that Hamilton had and how that affected this particular duel. Now we know. And that, automatically, puts Alonso's 2nd place into a more realistic context in terms of what he actually "achieved".

If he's been behind a Sauber this year for so many laps, please feel free to bring this up and we can compare..

He raced Vettel towards the end because he is not consistently fast for 100% of the race.. Almost everyone has already seen this.

I was referring to your statement that Kimi lacked confidence in the conditions because he had no grip/front end - nothing about speed - nothing about any comparison to Alonso. I must have misunderstood what you were talking about. I was just pointing out that he showed confidence in the car, so perhaps his sitting behind the Sauber was incident to strategy/conservation issues.

In other words, we don't know.

I am surprised that people are bothering to argue minor points at this stage. I do not see any area where a rational argument can be made that Kimi has been better than Alonso this year.

The thread says 2014, arguments about previous years are not really applicable

Maybe because it beats posting pics of them in poses of leisure and sharing why we admirer them.

Don't bother talking about Hungary performance, that's a dead horse. The blinkers are well and truly on. Fernando 'setting purples' on a drying track and passing a few hobbled cars is viewed as a masterful demonstration. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny though if you actually have a clue what is happening on the track.

My problem with your "analysis" is that even if we assume that your points about Kimi are correct, which is a stretch, you religiously exclude ANY mishaps Alonso had. Such as the broken suspension in that quali (Bahrain?). If that had happened to Kimi you would have counted it as preventing him from showing his "true pace", but because Alonso qualified that half-undrivable car as if nothing had happened, you swep it under the rug.

Edit: And your discarding of Kimi errors. They seem to have no place in your "model" either. E.g., Hungary. Yes, pitwall error no doubt. But Kimi put himself in the position where a pitwall error could even happen. The fact that Alonso has fewer of these problems is also (not only, but also) caused by Alonso less frequently even getting himself in proximity to such problems.

Don't bother talking about Hungary performance, that's a dead horse. The blinkers are well and truly on. Fernando 'setting purples' on a drying track and passing a few hobbled cars is viewed as a masterful demonstration. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny though if you actually have a clue what is happening on the track.

What's happening on track is Alonso is owning Kimi 11-0, and your unhappy about it. That is all

The only meaningful comparison is to see clean-air laptimes which Kimi had only a few (and he was doing fine btw). Getting Q17 is not an easy ride to the front in Hungary when you are blocked all the time. Even hamilton and rosberg with the rocketships can have a problem passing in problematic tracks if there is not a significant performance differential.

Kimi showed lack of pace during the weekend (FPs + 1 Q attempt) with the first laps of the medium compound. Thing is, due to the rain, the medium wasn't really raced since most teams opted for soft-soft... His soft pace was excellent all weekend + the race.

Your extrapolation / generalization of Kimi's driving performance into other races, is ...well... what can I say. I'll leave it there...

Maybe part of the problem is that you are talking about a completely different thing than most of us, and occluding that by extending your opinion, which is formed by one thing to a very different one.

Namely:

You seem to start your argument in the realm of pure raw pace in ideal conditions. Therefore you are trying to remove all data that gets in the way of assessing this raw pace. OK, one can do that if this is one's interest. I don't think you are doing it very well, but the idea is not fundamentally untenable.

But, F1 is not a time trial. Being an excellent F1 driver requires raw pace and driving skills, but also the ability to read a race, team worka and yes political acumen, mundane stuff such as simply keeping away from unnecessary risk and trouble on track, and arguably even stuff like ability to find money, work with sponsors, etc. (race driving textbooks include these topics). And I think that this is what many other posters here include in their pictures of the situation - possibly mostly the Alonso supporters.

So far, these are separate domains and no problem, one can discuss either. But then you go and try to argue - or seem to, to me - away from the raw pace your whole data gathering process and analysis is based on, and extend it to Kimi's overall quality as a racing driver vs. Alonso.

In your view, stuff like Kimi's pace in round 1 of Hungary Q1 is irrelevant, because that was surely not his ultimate pace (and I agree that it wasn't). But like I said in the previous post, he was slow at a point were it could get him into trouble, and then a random event (or maybe even not so random) like a pitwall error can throw you off. No pitwall error could harm Alonso when round 1 of Q1 was done.

Don't bother talking about Hungary performance, that's a dead horse. The blinkers are well and truly on. Fernando 'setting purples' on a drying track and passing a few hobbled cars is viewed as a masterful demonstration. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny though if you actually have a clue what is happening on the track.

Formula 1 official site:

Alonso drove brilliantly to keep his F14 T in contention right up until the penultimate lap, and never left an opening for Hamilton even though his soft tyres were 32 laps old by the end of the race. Source: http://www.formula1....14/7/16182.html

F1fanatic, British site, hardly an Alonso fansite, voted by the readers as driver of the weekend:

On the restart however he mastered the tricky conditions, getting the better of both Nico Rosberg and Jean-Eric Vergne. That put him in position to lead when the Safety Car came out again.

It was then up to Alonso to make a set of soft tyres last 32 laps to the end of the race, which he impressively pulled off, losing only a single position to the substantially faster car of Ricciardo.

Skysports' Pete Gill, another guy that cannot be accused of being an Alonso fan on his conclussions from the Hungary GP:

He’s a magician, a triumph of determination over mechanical deficiency, proof positive that it’s not all about the car. He's brilliant, simply brilliant.

Over a single lap, Hamilton is without peer, and as a frontrunner, there’s nobody better than Sebastian Vettel. But as an all-round package, Alonso remains the benchmark that every other driver aspires to be.

the Budapest race did not confirm Alonso's credentials as a fighter and a racer (we were reminded of those earlier this month at Silverstone), but it did demonstrate that Alonso is the best driver on the grid.

Of course, these people do not have a clue. Unlike you, Niceman, who will probably berate these quotes because, you know, they are just quotes...because you KNOW that Kimi is da best. See my signature below? De te fabula narratur.

If you want, you may even add some quotes from somebody, anybody, telling us how brilliant Kimi was and how mediocre Alonso was at Hungary.

Don't bother talking about Hungary performance, that's a dead horse. The blinkers are well and truly on. Fernando 'setting purples' on a drying track and passing a few hobbled cars is viewed as a masterful demonstration. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny though if you actually have a clue what is happening on the track.

in this thread we are comparing kimi against alonso, if it was kimi setting purples and passing hobbled cars on a drying track, i wonder what we would be saying

Anyways, just to be clear, I think Kimi did really well, all things considered, at Hungary. So my post was aimed at rubbishing the claims that Alonso's drive was not memorable, not at belittling what was arguably Kimi's best performance this season.

Anyways, just to be clear, I think Kimi did really well, all things considered, at Hungary. So my post was aimed at rubbishing the claims that Alonso's drive was not memorable, not at belittling what was arguably Kimi's best performance this season.

Same here... Kimi dis a great race. Too bad he happened to made it on the same race where Alonso pulled a magnificent drive.

Now that is bad luck. Doing your best race so far when your team mate pulls one even better than yours.

F1fanatic, British site, hardly an Alonso fansite, voted by the readers as driver of the weekend:

Skysports' Pete Gill, another guy that cannot be accused of being an Alonso fan on his conclussions from the Hungary GP:

From Bleacher Report:

James Allen:

Of course, these people do not have a clue. Unlike you, Niceman, who will probably berate these quotes because, you know, they are just quotes...because you KNOW that Kimi is da best. See my signature below? De te fabula narratur.

If you want, you may even add some quotes from somebody, anybody, telling us how brilliant Kimi was and how mediocre Alonso was at Hungary.

Take your time.

These were all written in the heat of the moment. It was a confusing race. Go back and scrutinise the data and you get the real picture.

Anyways, just to be clear, I think Kimi did really well, all things considered, at Hungary. So my post was aimed at rubbishing the claims that Alonso's drive was not memorable, not at belittling what was arguably Kimi's best performance this season.

Did any of those giving the praise, know at the time they wrote their comments, that his fight with Hamilton was with a Mercedes engine experiencing severe power loss? No.

In any case I find it ridiculous to give so much praise for climbing the ladder due to attrition and others having problems. You can't have the same comments (or even better comments) than Hungary 2003 where everything was on merit and from pole and Alonso lapped MS and his teammate. Something is seriously wrong with how people evaluate races. Alonso went from 5th to 2nd in hungary because others failed and he's the best of the world? LOL.

Just to be clear: Alonso IS the best package right now. He is the best package because of his combined race and qualify speed and the vision+determination to be the best and be crowned a champion. Not because others experience problems and he picks their points for having the next-fastest-car.

My problem with your "analysis" is that even if we assume that your points about Kimi are correct, which is a stretch, you religiously exclude ANY mishaps Alonso had. Such as the broken suspension in that quali (Bahrain?). If that had happened to Kimi you would have counted it as preventing him from showing his "true pace", but because Alonso qualified that half-undrivable car as if nothing had happened, you swep it under the rug.

Edit: And your discarding of Kimi errors. They seem to have no place in your "model" either. E.g., Hungary. Yes, pitwall error no doubt. But Kimi put himself in the position where a pitwall error could even happen. The fact that Alonso has fewer of these problems is also (not only, but also) caused by Alonso less frequently even getting himself in proximity to such problems.

Excuse me, did the broken suspension (which was fixed in record-time to continue his Q) affect the Kimi-Alonso duel in any way? Kimi was crashed by Mag and was set out of contention very early in the race. Alonso would've won the duel easily no matter what, unless he had some kind of DNF or similarly catastrophic crash/puncture etc.

As for Hungary "error", this is not one-lap-qualify era. If it was, *then* it would be an error as you are actually expected to deliver in just one lap.