To divert, sort of, I think what you're saying kilted is a PETA-esque arguement. I agree that it is a very fine line between the two. I will add, though, that I think the judicial system here in the US does a pretty good job interpretting the law as written (though, like many, I often disagree with them, I still have the uptmost respect for what members of the bench do). As long as everyone ensures that animal cruelty laws that apply to fighting animals require proof of intent, then everything should be in the clear regarding feeders.

As far as the sickos who feed goldies to their big predators and get off on it, unfortunately there isn't much that can be done about it without banning feeders entirely. Ultimately, as the law stands, feeders are an issue of moraiity, and morality is pretty much all about personal choice. (I am absolutely not advocating this, I'm simply saying it would take oodles of legislation to separate one from the other).

LOL Kidea. You are living proof that once someone realizes that I am being direct and just don't waste time with platitudes and state my opinion and advice as concisely as possible, then you realize I am not being egotistical or high and mighty and we end up getting along. I know when you were new that you didn't like my "attitude" at all. It's not attitude or a thirst for moderator power (which really doesn't give me squat except the ability to move a few posts to their proper places and inform members when they are straying the bounds of the rules set down by Marcos. ALL of us mods discuss anything major before implementing anything. WE are a TEAM), it is only the desire to say what I have to say and go on with my day. I love helping people, but do not have infinite time to do so, so I try to get my answers and advice out as quickly as possible, with as much detail as I can.

I'm sorry if that bruises people's fragile egos, but that's just the way it is. I don't have the time to sugarcoat things. Especially with the Nth question about keeping 4 oscars in a 10g tank and the poster saying they are all fine. (this is just and example not directed at anyone) If anyone wants to read more into anything I say to them or others, that is entirely up to them, but if you read my posts with absolutely nothing behind them then maybe you'll actually get what I'm saying, instead of being insulted that I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear in the way you wanted to hear it.

but if you read my posts with absolutely nothing behind them then maybe you'll actually get what I'm saying, instead of being insulted that I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear in the way you wanted to hear it.

How nice it would be if you treated other people the same way you are wanting to be treated

The Siamese fighter is USED for this. They will kill each other, or rather the domineering fish will pick at the weaker one and keep at it until it dies of stress or respiratory problems. This does not always happen as sometimes the fighter stager will remove the fish before this happens , but this is rare.

Seems like I have read, I think it was in an IBC publication, but I could be mistaken, that the normal course of event in betta fighting in Thailand, or at least in parts of Thailand, is for a fish to be selected from the wild, fed well for a few weeks before the fight, well cared for, fought, and if the fish looses (yes the fight is stopped before either fish is dead) it is returned to the wild as it is seen as a poor fighter and not worth keeping.

Now this doesn't mean this is what happens everywhere, or every time, or that the article I read wasn't wrong, but I think it is safe to say that the betta fights might be handled differently in different places and at different times and so both you and noname could be right on this one, and of course you could both be wrong at the same time. However the tone of this post seems to convey that you are aware of all of the absolute truths when it comes to fighting bettas and want to make sure you put noname in his place. Sorry, I doubt there are any absolute truths on this issue, except for the one about how we wish betta fighting in any of its forms would go away. So maybe we should all ease up when we post and realize that none of us knows everything, realize that even when someone says something that we have a hard time accepting as true it very well could be, realize that every single one of us can learn from every single other person on this board and acting like we know everything can only lead to looking like a complete moron. Aren't we here to share information and to try to help each other? Seems from reading some of the posts here that we (I include myself in this "we") are more interested in proving that we are experts of some sort than we are in helping and learning.

but if you read my posts with absolutely nothing behind them then maybe you'll actually get what I'm saying, instead of being insulted that I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear in the way you wanted to hear it.

How nice it would be if you treated other people the same way you are wanting to be treated

Care to elaborate on that? I could post the blatant insults that you PMed me with to show that is not the case. Especially the ones insulting my intelligence. If you can't back it up then back off.

Although out of my whole post, that was the only thing you attempted to comment on. Interesting....._________________"Feminae bene moratea historiam raro faciunt"

but if you read my posts with absolutely nothing behind them then maybe you'll actually get what I'm saying, instead of being insulted that I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear in the way you wanted to hear it.

How nice it would be if you treated other people the same way you are wanting to be treated

Care to elaborate on that? I could post the blatant insults that you PMed me with to show that is not the case. Especially the ones insulting my intelligence. If you can't back it up then back off.

Although out of my whole post, that was the only thing you attempted to comment on. Interesting.....

This wasn't insulting, this was just stating fact. We have been involved in a couple of threads where we disagreed, obviously, and when I posted something that you didn't want to hear you went on the attack. I tried to explain my position in a nice reasonable way and you came back with a few false statements and made other statements that may or may not be true but you failed to back them up with anything after stating them as absolute fact. I made a comparison to the way you were thinking and the way an animal rights group thinks only to show how this type of thought doesn't always work out well for the animals in question even though the intent was good. Nothing at all insulting in that but you decide to act like you are highly offended.

So when you say something someone doesn't want to hear we are supposed to simply shut up and accept it but when someone else makes a statement you don't agree with you refuse to simply sit back and accept it.

Do you need more elaboration?

By the way, if you post those PM's I sent you don't forget to post the ones you sent me, as you are far from innocent when it comes to throwing insults in that exchange. And I didn't insult your intelligence in those PM's, I simply requested that you back up your statements with something more than "I worked for a vet" as that statement proves nothing. Is there anything you don't consider insulting?

With the uptmost respect to everyone involved, can we please just move on? I say this as someone who has not particpated in anyway in the threads causing this anomosity or trying, in an obviously fruitless effort, to reslove the strife amicably.
At what point is everyone going to step back and realize that there is a point where squibbles like this begin to degrade 'business as usual' and start to effect the integrity of the entire board? Clearly this is more than a differing of topic related opinnions.

Also, and again with the uptmost respect for everyone, at what point do you stop defending yourself and begin impeaching your own integrity? At what point do you cross the line of being philosphically righteous and turn into a baiter?

With the uptmost respect to everyone involved, can we please just move on? I say this as someone who has not particpated in anyway in the threads causing this anomosity or trying, in an obviously fruitless effort, to reslove the strife amicably.

I do apologize for airing all of this on the board benedict, you are absolutely correct in that this is not the place for it. I would have preferred to hash this out in PM's but I was informed by huntress that if I sent her a 3rd PM she would take some sort of action as she considered receiving 2 PM's from me as harassment.

So I will promise not to make any further posts on this issue. I just hope that huntress will also agree to soften her tone a bit and realize that an opinion that differs from hers might not be any less valuable than hers.

Personally I think a lot of problems are caused by 'humanising' animals that couldn't be further from human.

And while not condoning or supporting fish, cock or dog fighting, humans are just exploiting instincts that are natural for these creatures. Just as humans have exploited more 'benificial' or should I say 'constructive' instincts in horses, dogs, falcons, etc for riding, herding, hunting, etc.