Anybody ever hook an older model hull? I know that Mastercraft was hooking some of the early 197's. Anybody have any pics of the "hook" or know how far from the stern the hook was located, how much rise/run, and how far it spanned perpendicular to the hull?

east tx skier

10-26-2010, 01:37 PM

Send me a PM. You may want to give Ted Brown a call. He is the glass guru of North Texas and has done several boats. For a time, he was MC and CC's go to guy in the area for glass work. He may still be. I believe he told me he has done an early 90's pro star, but memory fades.

The short answer is you really don't need to do it. But he will be able to tell you what can be done.

ahhudgins

10-26-2010, 03:14 PM

I'm taking my homemade "hook" off my hull and adding a trim tab as my winter project. You would be very surprised at how much a small hook can change the performance of your boat.
You can search "porpoising" and find several discussions about my issue. The nylon strip that I added to my hull is 2 inches wide and 3/16 of an inch at the trailing edge. It only runs between the first set of chines. I started with 1/4 trailing edge but it cut 2 MPH off my top end. I filed it down a little at a time to hit the sweet spot. The boat planes quicker, turns flatter and no porpoising at barefoot speeds.

DooSPX

10-26-2010, 03:17 PM

I like the idea of adding a trim plate (barefoot plate). That way you can adjust it on the fly how ever you want to fit the conditions and meet your needs.

east tx skier

10-26-2010, 03:21 PM

I like the idea of adding a trim plate (barefoot plate). That way you can adjust it on the fly how ever you want to fit the conditions and meet your needs.

Supra did it for years.

However you do it, assuming you glass it on, since it was not original to the boat like it would be if you were hooking a 2001 197 for example, it's a bit of trial and error, even if you have it done by a professional.

ahhudgins

10-26-2010, 04:23 PM

Supra did it for years.

However you do it, assuming you glass it on, since it was not original to the boat like it would be if you were hooking a 2001 197 for example, it's a bit of trial and error, even if you have it done by a professional.

Exactly! A friend of mine had a hook added to his 78 MC because he had a "warped hull". Bad stringers would be my guess. The fiberglass guy added the hook and then they kept testing the boat and shaving it down. They sprayed gel over the hook and you can't even tell it with the naked eye. The guy who wanted to do mine was going to add two smaller hooks on the stern. I decided to test it myself and glued 2 small wedges equal to his dimensions. I ended up having two small rooster tails over 30 MPH so I ended up doing my own tests with the 2 inch strip across the stern. My homemade hook as served me well, but I want to add the adjustable trim tab so I can adjust it for my speed and load. I'm glad I didn't just let the fiberglass guy slap some thing on the boat.

Skipper

10-26-2010, 07:46 PM

I expect that there would be the need to make adjustments to get the best hook. However, if I were to do something so radical I would like to start with something as close to proven (previous efforts on 197's) as possible.

CruisinGA

10-26-2010, 08:25 PM

I need something on my X9, have to either have most of the people in the bow or a lot of weight in the ski locker sack to keep it from porpoising at barefoot speeds.

east tx skier

10-26-2010, 09:55 PM

I expect that there would be the need to make adjustments to get the best hook. However, if I were to do something so radical I would like to start with something as close to proven (previous efforts on 197's) as possible.

Apples to oranges. What works for one will not necessarily work for the other. No baseline other than the hook that is already on your boat. Ted will be able to suggest where to start.

ahhudgins

10-26-2010, 11:13 PM

I need something on my X9, have to either have most of the people in the bow or a lot of weight in the ski locker sack to keep it from porpoising at barefoot speeds.

My Maristar will only porpoise if I have more than 4 or 5 people in the boat (or 2 fat chicks). My bow rides very high above the water and putting the weight forward made my problem worse. Like TX skier said, what works for one may not work for another. My boat performs a lot better with the hook but at wakeboard speeds (18-22 MPH) I can't get much of a wake even with several people in the boat and a 440 lb. sac in the floor because the boat is riding flatter. The boat gets on plane a lot quicker and at slower speeds with just the 3/16 hook.

I'm just surprised to hear that people are having the porpoising problem on some of the newer Mastercrafts. You would think that the boats would be tested under different load conditions.

east tx skier

10-27-2010, 12:41 AM

It's a bump at 22 and 28 off issue, or so I'm tod, not a porpoising issue with this 190.

Skipper

10-27-2010, 10:06 AM

No dolphins or porpoises here, but I do have a rabbit with a pancake on its head. Just one heck of a rooster tail at 28 ft off. Can't make the 32 off run without doing the 28 first. The 28 is a back breaker. I know, just keep the ski on edge and pull through. Same thing can be said for crashing a helicopter, just a hard landing.

east tx skier

10-27-2010, 12:03 PM

I read you.

http://www.gigadivas.org/~pawprnts/rabbit_pancake.jpg

Skipper

10-27-2010, 01:58 PM

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DooSPX

10-27-2010, 02:07 PM

What transmission does your boat have? If its a 1:1 try the OJ XMP 13 x 11.5
BrianM has one on his 97 and he said it leveled the rooster tail pretty good...

450 bucks is A LOT cheaper than either a trim tab system or a hull modification. Please you get every other benefit for the skier as well ;)

Skipper

10-27-2010, 09:00 PM

OJ XMP huh? I am running a 4 blade ACME with the 1:1 transmission.

ahhudgins

10-27-2010, 09:49 PM

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for clearing that up. I think?

ahhudgins

10-27-2010, 10:12 PM

I rarely slalom and when I do it's not on a course, but I'm curious now. Has any one used an adjustable trim tab to flatten a rooster tail? Is the rooster tail related more the the prop or the shape of the hull?

You may want to experiment a little on your own if you can. If I would have gone ahead and let the guy put the two smaller hooks like he suggested, it would have cured my problem but it would have added the two smaller tails as well. It was a real mess at barefoot speeds. I know the trim tab will fix my porpoising problem, flattening the wake would be an added plus.

DooSPX

10-27-2010, 10:19 PM

OJ XMP huh? I am running a 4 blade ACME with the 1:1 transmission.

Sorry Skipper, I never knew you already had a CNC prop... Still have have a hard bump? :(huh...

east tx skier

10-27-2010, 11:37 PM

I rarely slalom and when I do it's not on a course, but I'm curious now. Has any one used an adjustable trim tab to flatten a rooster tail? Is the rooster tail related more the the prop or the shape of the hull?

You may want to experiment a little on your own if you can. If I would have gone ahead and let the guy put the two smaller hooks like he suggested, it would have cured my problem but it would have added the two smaller tails as well. It was a real mess at barefoot speeds. I know the trim tab will fix my porpoising problem, flattening the wake would be an added plus.

Supra did this for years. My brother in laws doesn't seem to get past 0 degrees though. I'm not convinced it does much for the bump, but I've heard others swear by it. The problem with it in tournaments is that it is incrementally adjustable.

A little weight in the nose, say 50 lbs, is where I'd start.

Skipper

10-28-2010, 09:52 AM

Sorry Skipper, I never knew you already had a CNC prop... Still have have a hard bump? :(huh...

No worries. There are differences from prop to prop. The XMP's may very well produce a different effect than the ACME.

Skipper

10-28-2010, 09:55 AM

I rarely slalom and when I do it's not on a course, but I'm curious now. Has any one used an adjustable trim tab to flatten a rooster tail? Is the rooster tail related more the the prop or the shape of the hull?

You may want to experiment a little on your own if you can. If I would have gone ahead and let the guy put the two smaller hooks like he suggested, it would have cured my problem but it would have added the two smaller tails as well. It was a real mess at barefoot speeds. I know the trim tab will fix my porpoising problem, flattening the wake would be an added plus.

Doesn't the Correct Craft SN 196 TSC2 hull have two raised rectangular blocks on the hull? I think these are to produce lift for the stern. I don't know why my boat doesn't ride flat across the water. Seems like it is riding bow high.

east tx skier

10-28-2010, 10:59 AM

No worries. There are differences from prop to prop. The XMP's may very well produce a different effect than the ACME.

They do, but in my comparisons of the 3 blades, the difference was slight. I know Brian's testing was more in depth (as far as prop choices) than mine was. So I'll defer to him on the 4 blades. Plus, he's running the same hull as you. The biggest difference I noticed between the two was that the OJ seemed to have a touch softer of a pull while the acme hit harder out of the hole.

east tx skier

10-28-2010, 11:01 AM

Doesn't the Correct Craft SN 196 TSC2 hull have two raised rectangular blocks on the hull? I think these are to produce lift for the stern. I don't know why my boat doesn't ride flat across the water. Seems like it is riding bow high.

The TSC2 has lifting strakes that neither the TSC nor the TSC3 have. Apparently, this wasn't very good for the trick wake. The slalom wake was quite good though.

Not promoting. Just posting for comparison's sake. :o

http://www.correctcraftboats.com/pnuploads/tscs.jpg

By the way, I think there were a couple of TSC2s that were built in the 2006 year that had the plate on them. That's what that bottom-left picture appears to be.

Skipper

10-28-2010, 08:57 PM

I dunno boys? I have always trained behind bruisers, then when I ski in a tournament I get pulled by a state of the art tow boat and it seems easy. Well, until I am running late at the 4 ball. I'll just weigh down the front and focus on keeping the ski on edge as I cross Mt. Rooster. The '95 is a good boat.

barefoot

10-29-2010, 11:53 AM

The hull on my 83 is hooked. It isn't much...only sightly. To an untrained eye, you wouldn't even see it. I don't think it makes that much of a difference. I found that re-proping the boat did more for the rooster tail than the hook.

My buddy has a Supra with a plate. It's a very enjoyable wake to ski behind. I almost prefer it over mine...

ahhudgins

10-29-2010, 02:09 PM

Are the small "plates" pictured on the Nautiques designed to flatten the rooster tail? :confused:

DooSPX

10-29-2010, 02:36 PM

Are the small "plates" pictured on the Nautiques designed to flatten the rooster tail? :confused:

Its called the Hydro-Gate by CC. It is basically a trim tab setup, I think it was to help the bump and adjust for trick or something. ETS will be able to tell you.

east tx skier

10-29-2010, 07:00 PM

It essentially hooks the hull. There are two positions controlled by a lever at the helm. One is trick (up); the other is slalom (down). It is optional. If you don't order it, a fixed plate is attached flush with the hull, which basically equates to having the gate down all the time. They put it on there to satisfy the trick skiers, who didn't like the trick wake of the TSC2 hulls. It enabled them to lose the lifting strakes. From a slalom perspective, all of the SN from 1997 to 2009 are pretty similar.

ahhudgins

10-30-2010, 10:39 AM

It essentially hooks the hull. There are two positions controlled by a lever at the helm. One is trick (up); the other is slalom (down). It is optional. If you don't order it, a fixed plate is attached flush with the hull, which basically equates to having the gate down all the time. They put it on there to satisfy the trick skiers, who didn't like the trick wake of the TSC2 hulls. It enabled them to lose the lifting strakes. From a slalom perspective, all of the SN from 1997 to 2009 are pretty similar.

Maybe Skipper could fix his problem with a plate or trim tab? I've followed a lot of threads where guys have added the tabs to correct the porpoising problem, which I intend to do this spring. Can any one say whether they noticed a change in their wake after adding an adjustable trim tab?

east tx skier

10-30-2010, 12:59 PM

Of course, he can do whatever he likes. That said, my hesitation with the trim plate would be not being able to experiment with it without drilling holes.

Skipper

10-30-2010, 01:48 PM

Maybe Skipper could fix his problem with a plate or trim tab? I've followed a lot of threads where guys have added the tabs to correct the porpoising problem, which I intend to do this spring. Can any one say whether they noticed a change in their wake after adding an adjustable trim tab?

I think it will take years of therapy, medication, and possibly inpatient treatment to fix my problem. Oh, the boat. Yeah, I am running with two padded blocks in the bow today. Let you know how that works out.

east tx skier

10-31-2010, 10:50 AM

I wasn't a real fan of weight in the bow. But plenty of people swear by it. So it was definitely worth a try. For me, the wake and tracking were not noticeably improved. But low speed handling and hole shot stunk.

thatsmrmastercraft

10-31-2010, 11:54 AM

That is what has prevented me from adding weight to the front of my boat. A guy has to pay enough attention to keep the bow out of the water as it is without weighing the front down.

Skipper

10-31-2010, 12:30 PM

62653

I weighted down the bow. The results were great. At 34mph the boat was running across the top of the water surface. The stern was out of the water. I was running 32's and 35's with no grief. But the real bonus was the 22's were much less painful and the rooster tail at 28 was very tame (compared to before adding the weight). I am sold on the blocks.

I used two concrete blocks 4"x24"x24". I wrapped the blocks in padded foam sleeping mat and taped them all over with duct tape. I placed one block on each side at the bow like a vee. I put a bundled towell at the bottom for padding. I taped the blocks to the bow eye bolt. Not the prettiest thing in the world.

No adverse effects in hole shot. No handling problems. No water over the bow. The boat ran on top of the water, the way it was probably designed. Now if I could only figure out a better way to accomplish the same result.

DooSPX

10-31-2010, 01:10 PM

Glad to hear it worked out so well for you!

Jorski

11-03-2010, 09:40 PM

Now if I could only figure out a better way to accomplish the same result.

Why not install a ballast tank?

That way you could dial in the weight by using any amount of water that you wish...and you could empty it when you were cruising around.

east tx skier

11-04-2010, 12:37 AM

62653

I weighted down the bow. The results were great. At 34mph the boat was running across the top of the water surface. The stern was out of the water. I was running 32's and 35's with no grief. But the real bonus was the 22's were much less painful and the rooster tail at 28 was very tame (compared to before adding the weight). I am sold on the blocks.

I used two concrete blocks 4"x24"x24". I wrapped the blocks in padded foam sleeping mat and taped them all over with duct tape. I placed one block on each side at the bow like a vee. I put a bundled towell at the bottom for padding. I taped the blocks to the bow eye bolt. Not the prettiest thing in the world.

No adverse effects in hole shot. No handling problems. No water over the bow. The boat ran on top of the water, the way it was probably designed. Now if I could only figure out a better way to accomplish the same result.

Awesome. Time to make some lead blocks. How much weight did those two blocks contribute?

Kyle

11-04-2010, 12:50 AM

24"x24"x4" should be close to 180lbs each.

Kyle

11-04-2010, 12:52 AM

I remember making anchors for each bouy line and they were about 180 lbs and it should take close to 4.5 80lb bags of concrete to make the two of them.

east tx skier

11-04-2010, 12:57 AM

That's a ton of weight. I tried it with 50 lbs and thought that was a lot.

Kyle

11-04-2010, 01:06 AM

Who knows how much 2 batterys 3 amps a 12" sub in a big box. I bet it would half of what skipper has and I can notice a difference in how mine drives and skis.

DooSPX

11-04-2010, 11:14 AM

Who knows how much 2 batterys 3 amps a 12" sub in a big box. I bet it would half of what skipper has and I can notice a difference in how mine drives and skis.

for the better? any adverse affects?

DooSPX

11-04-2010, 11:15 AM

I do like the idea of a ballast bag or tank... not permanent weight and adjustable.

either way, I very happy to hear that skipper is happy with the way his boat skis.

east tx skier

11-04-2010, 11:32 AM

For storage's sake under the bow, you can't get more weight in a compact space as you can with lead. Moisture under the bow, especially if you have amps up there is not something I would do and, thus, would opt against ballast bags. Even with no electronics up there, the mildew smell will soon follow.

Go get some old tire weights and a throw away frying pan (I'd also suggest a mask or respirator of some sort). Most tire weights will give you as much as you need for free if you ask nicely. Toss the weights in the pan and melt them down. Don't do too much at once or you'll have a heck of a time lifting the pan. Scrape off the bits that aren't lead and pour the molten lead into a form (throw away bread pans work well). When you pour the last bit, you might consider adding a handle of some sort. Afterward, paint and carpet the bricks.

DooSPX

11-04-2010, 11:35 AM

Sounds like Eastie has done this once or twice... :D
I do not have an amp or a sub, just a relocated battery, so the ballast thing might not be so bad with me. but for you, kyle, etc with electronics, I can definitely see not wanting ballast bags... though maybe a tank is sealed?

east tx skier

11-04-2010, 11:40 AM

My brick making ended with a pan that was too heavy to lift. I had some plastic weights that I stuffed in an old ski boot bag that worked well enough to offset driver weight. Now, reverse rotation solves that problem. In my boat, 50 lbs in the nose made it handle really sluggishly at low speeds and didn't make a noticeable improvement of the wake or tracking.

It all depends on the boat. Tournament drivers will weight late model 197s and SN 196s to tweak the wake. It's something that's so easy, it's definitely worth trying.

DooSPX

11-04-2010, 11:47 AM

have you done anything like this in your old 93 205? how did it act? I love my wake and pull, but off setting the driver wait would be nice. moving the battery helped a bit.

east tx skier

11-04-2010, 12:00 PM

Played with it a bit. There's not a lot of room up there for much weight. I probably tossed 60 lbs up there. For me, it's always been more helpful to remove weight, i.e., gas and the back seat, than to add it.

DooSPX

11-04-2010, 12:02 PM

Thats what I have been finding with my 190. even if I remove weight up front, it helped the wake. I think the battery move helped a bit, not to mention much more convenient.

thats crazy... I wish I could come up with lighter parts to use on my boat... my teak deck is heavy, and I can tell a difference in the wake with just that.

etduc

11-05-2010, 04:53 PM

thats crazy... I wish I could come up with lighter parts to use on my boat... my teak deck is heavy, and I can tell a difference in the wake with just that.

Wouldn't be that hard to make a carbon fiber, swim platform. Looks like they did a laminated
styrofoam board, (like you make surfboards, but much stronger) Basic process is fairly simple. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAdVO8Rkv6c search the website, for info on laminating.

Also, reducing the weight of the mounting brackets: alum alloy, or titanium alloy.
Be kinda of cool looking.

east tx skier

11-05-2010, 05:08 PM

I think just replacing the swim platform would be a waste of time. It's the whole carbon package that makes that boat lighter. Just run your gas down and remove the back seat and call it a day. Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool what he did with that boat. But that's a lot of trouble to go to with a boat that already has a very good wake.

DooSPX

11-05-2010, 05:10 PM

yes, it is... I run no back seat, 1/4 tank of fuel and thats it...

I just thought it was cool, thats all...

There is nothing in my boat that I want to get rid of and too much work to go rebuilding seats, dog house, etc.

Wow, that is interesting. You can tell those brothers are dedicated skiers. I like the way they converted their bimini to a cold weather shield. Also, the handle guard. Didn't a boat manufacturer make a carbon fiber ski boat for the 2011 model year?

What is really interesting, is that it only changed the weight by 400 lbs. That's just two of my girlfriends.... whoodathunkit?8p

east tx skier

11-06-2010, 10:35 AM

Wow, that is interesting. You can tell those brothers are dedicated skiers. I like the way they converted their bimini to a cold weather shield. Also, the handle guard. Didn't a boat manufacturer make a carbon fiber ski boat for the 2011 model year?

What is really interesting, is that it only changed the weight by 400 lbs. That's just two of my girlfriends.... whoodathunkit?8p

Centurion's Carbon Pro is the boat you mentioned. Has been well reviewed.

Skipper

11-06-2010, 01:52 PM

I agree that by reducing the weight, the boat will displace less water, which will produce a better wake. However, fundamentally, the boat needs to be designed to ride across the top of the water instead of plowing through the water. That is the issue with my tug. I added weight to the front to force the boat to ride across the top of the water. The real solution would be to find a way to accomplish the same result without adding weight. The result would be even better because there would be less displacement.

When the MC, CC, and Maliboob jump on the carbon graphite, super light weight, band-wagon, the price of a new ski boat is going to be about $75,000.00. An over-worked 1SG doesn't make that much in two years wages.

east tx skier

11-06-2010, 05:15 PM

Get too much of the hull out of the water and tracking will start to be an issue. At a certain point, you have to believe they designed the boat for the weight distribution it has. Probably why mine felt so nasty with 50 lbs in the nose.

JohnE

11-06-2010, 05:45 PM

You guys need to stop searching for perfection and just ski.:D

east tx skier

11-06-2010, 05:58 PM

You guys need to stop searching for perfection and just ski.:D

Winterized today because I had time. Welce to 4 months of overthinking things and redundant political threads. :)

Jorski

11-06-2010, 06:10 PM

Eastie is correct. I used to have a Hydrostream, that weighed only 700 pounds or so (plus the outboard engine) that had virtually zero wake.

I had to put weight in the front to keep the nose down, and it tracked like crap. It was fine out on the lake free skiing; but, you wouldn't want to pull a short liner in the course with it.

TX.X-30 fan

11-06-2010, 07:00 PM

You guys need to stop searching for perfection and just ski.:D

Great point, even for a mod. :D

Winterized today because I had time. Welce to 4 months of overthinking things and redundant political threads. :)

I don't overthink things............:confused:

Skipper

11-06-2010, 10:22 PM

I'll tell you...don't really care what others might think....but, the nicest ski boat wake and rooster tail was behind a 2003 Malibu Sunsetter that my buddy in Kentucky owns. The stern floated across the surface and it seemed as though the water just rolled under the hull instead of being pushed down and away. At course speed the boat wasn't too bad, but when pulling little girls through at 24mph the back end would just slip to the left once in a while.

In my '87 SN I put a temporary hook on the stern and pushed the bow too far into the water. The boat nearly flipped over at course speed because the hull was not designed to run across the water.

So there lies the conundrum...how to keep the weight down, keep the bow down, and keep the boat under control. So far the blocks in the bow are working, just very primitive.

east tx skier

11-07-2010, 12:52 AM

I'll tell you...don't really care what others might think....but, the nicest ski boat wake and rooster tail was behind a 2003 Malibu Sunsetter that my buddy in Kentucky owns. The stern floated across the surface and it seemed as though the water just rolled under the hull instead of being pushed down and away. At course speed the boat wasn't too bad, but when pulling little girls through at 24mph the back end would just slip to the left once in a while.

In my '87 SN I put a temporary hook on the stern and pushed the bow too far into the water. The boat nearly flipped over at course speed because the hull was not designed to run across the water.

So there lies the conundrum...how to keep the weight down, keep the bow down, and keep the boat under control. So far the blocks in the bow are working, just very primitive.

Make some lead bricks. You'll never notice them.

TX.X-30 fan

11-07-2010, 11:22 AM

I use lead shot bags vacumn sealed in food saver bags, the shot will conform to any space better than other stuff.

east tx skier

11-07-2010, 01:42 PM

I use lead shot bags vacumn sealed in food saver bags, the shot will conform to any space better than other stuff.

Definitely ideal. I looked all over for lead shot. All of the shooting ranges only had steel shot. I could have ordered online, but shipping on lead is pretty rough. Dive shops only had weights in small increments and at high prices.

TX.X-30 fan

11-07-2010, 03:15 PM

Definitely ideal. I looked all over for lead shot. All of the shooting ranges only had steel shot. I could have ordered online, but shipping on lead is pretty rough. Dive shops only had weights in small increments and at high prices.

I either went to bass pro or Carters country and found it.

Skipper

11-08-2010, 08:18 PM

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/lead_shot_reclaim_clean.htm

Free shipping on 100lbs of lead shot.

Skipper

11-08-2010, 08:49 PM

Winterized today because I had time. Welce to 4 months of overthinking things and redundant political threads. :)

Really, you winterized already? I am just across the border in LA and still skiing. Last weekend was 65 air temp and 64 water temp. Going to be warmer this weekend. We have cold weeks and warm weeks. Really a roller coaster ride. Going to try to ski through November.

4Runner

04-16-2011, 11:30 AM

So, did anyone ever find trim tabs that will work? I want to try them on my 2001 209v, but am having problems finding ones to fit. I called the MC dealer, but they haven't ever responded.