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Could you give some more explentaion regarding the purpose of this practice.

I did not get the meaninig of the tanto, it seemed like the lot of you ignored the stabbings. Is it only supposed to be a means to stop the practice?
I could not see anything the tanto holder could do to stop the lot of you from rushing him time after time until he is grasped.

I'm confused as well. So the purpose of the training is to see how many unarmed people I can slash with a knife? Does not seem realistic at all, let alone the legal problems if this did ever happen, and not very Aiki. I've had better instruction and practice in my Chinese Knife fighting classes, and again I was going against guys with knives.

I thought the purpose of the exercise was to practice the TARGET is holding a knife, but is unwilling to use it on his ATTACKERS; if that was the goal, well done. That being said, an atemi with a knife in your hand would create some spacing, I think.

My first instinct was to say "Get rid of that blade if you are not going to use it" but realised if you threw it away, guess who would pick it up and use it?

As long as the goal was to learn how you think you might react in a similar situation, with no dillusions of how it might actually play out, then I say have fun. And fun is never a waste of time.

The attackers.
First off, the attackers (the unarmed mob) don't react to any damage they might receive from the weapon because that makes the practice harder. It's hard to guess at what kind of damage you might inflict on a cut, and hard to guess how different people will react to it. Some people receive lots of damage and keep coming, others get a paper cut and go home. So in the practice we make it a worse case scenario.

They do try to treat the knife as if it's real, but they also have an objective to achive-take the armed man down. doing it without getting cut/stabbed is the objective, but that objective is very hard.

About the "legal problems".
Yes you may face criminal charges if you use a weapon to defend yourself. Depending on what your facing, you may end up dead if you don't use one. If in this kind of horrible situation you'll have to make a choice.

About "real knife experts"
There are several really excellent edged weapon instructors. The majority of them have never been in a real knife engagement or any kind of fight at all.

While I personally seek out weapon advice where ever I can get it, knife fighting is not like boxing or wrestling where enough people have done it thousands and thousands of times till they really get to know what happens. You can glean some from this guys fight here or that ones there, but good info is hard to come by.

Other then the very few who have been in knife engagements you have to look to the theorists and those who have learned from people who have been in knife engagements. Both of which I am (theorist and learned from those who have been in knife fights) aside from that you'll have to find someone who has been in hundreds of knife fights (shouldn't be hard there are hundreds of them listed in black belt magazine).

The target and objective
The target is the guy holding the knife, not just the knife and not just the guy. Just like when doing multiple attackers I don't face 3 individuals but 3 people as a whole. Using the knife on the move is part of the practice. If you've never tried it I think you'd be surprised at how difficult it is to use a knife and try to blend at the same time.

Given the stated goals in your post above, the first thing I would do as the knife holder, would be to reverse the blade. The second thing I would do would be to focus on evasive movement, and let the movement power the reversed blade with the blade out for slashing as I moved past opponants. The third, and last thing, I would do would be to occationally use really hard thrusts with the blade (hilt against my breast bone, kisaki out to opponant) to "finish" specific individuals isolated by evasive movement.

I have no experience in knife fighting, so...take it for what it isn't worth...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

There are various videos posted and some deal with knives. I'm pretty sure it'll give you some new insights on your practice.

As to your practice -- I can offer my opinion/advice, but I'm not an expert.

My first thought about the use of the knife in your video was that it was being used in an amateur fashion. In other words, basically, slicing back and forth and some stabbing. you can do a whole lot more with a knife.

If you have a knife, it's a deadly encounter. Period. Treat it as such. In other words, if you've got the knife, then use it to kill. Don't mess around with it. Slash, cut, pick, stab, core, or flay arteries and organs. A slight flick of the wrist can move a knife from outside an arm to inside an arm, where nice, juicy arteries are located.

If you aren't interested in using the knife to its full advantage, then my suggestion would be to not use it at all. But, that goes back to the previous paragraph -- a knife is a deadly weapon. Learn to wield it effectively.

Personally, I think trying to apply aikido to knife is backwards. Learn how to use the knife (and aikido doesn't teach that), apply aiki (body structure) to your knife work, and then find a way to blend all that to aikido.

But, that's all just IMO.

Ron,
there are ups and downs to reversing the blade (not taking into account blade in or blade out on the reverse). One major down to that is that you lose your reach. With the blade held outward, you have extended your reach. You can pick with the tip and stay outside your opponent's striking range. Even just barely making your opponent's range, you can slash a wrist. With reversed blade, you have to come well into striking range. Also, in a clench, you can't drive the point up under the opponent's ribs. Other stuff, etc.

Positives are it's harder to knock the blade from your hands. Just blocking (with reverse, edge out) with the knife will probably cut your opponent. Trapping is very effective. All it takes is to trap a wrist and then twist the knife around a bit to cut the opponent's wrist as he/she pulls away. Or better yet, trap a bit higher and flay the inside arm as he/she pulls the arm away. Other, nasty stuff, etc.

The attackers.
First off, the attackers (the unarmed mob) don't react to any damage they might receive from the weapon because that makes the practice harder. It's hard to guess at what kind of damage you might inflict on a cut, and hard to guess how different people will react to it. Some people receive lots of damage and keep coming, others get a paper cut and go home. So in the practice we make it a worse case scenario.

Personally, I teach my students that some knife cuts are not fatal (or at least, not immediately so) and others are. I urge them to react to being "cut" accordingly. If you get a slash or stab in the meat of the shoulder, or the outside of the thigh, for instance, you can keep moving -- and must -- in order to increase your chances of survival. But if you get stabbed (or slashed) in the throat or neck, the underside of the upper arm, the inside of the leg, the chest, kidneys, or spine, etc. you're basically dead meat.

Since it is so easy to be fatally wounded in knife attacks, and most people realize this, it is not likely that even a group of unarmed people will be willing to attack someone waving a knife at them. Why, then, would I engage in a practice that is based on such an unlikely situation? What's wrong with practicing blending and flowing without a knife? What specific benefit does the introduction of the knife into the situation offer to the development of blending?

Quote:

They do try to treat the knife as if it's real, but they also have an objective to achive-take the armed man down. doing it without getting cut/stabbed is the objective, but that objective is very hard.

The objective is hard -- potentially lethal, even -- so why make it harder by preventing them from striking? The defender would be far easier to deal with if he/she could be struck before or while a controlling measure was applied.

Quote:

The target is the guy holding the knife, not just the knife and not just the guy. Just like when doing multiple attackers I don't face 3 individuals but 3 people as a whole. Using the knife on the move is part of the practice. If you've never tried it I think you'd be surprised at how difficult it is to use a knife and try to blend at the same time.

It is only difficult when they keep coming in spite of being "wounded" by the knife. It is relatively easy to cut and blend (or blend and cut, whichever) and kill several unarmed attackers with a knife.

Jon.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."

I would say its a good video exercise if your introducing it for the first time. Seems like a fun exercise allowing the students to see openings and blend into the action at a slow pace.

However from a practical point of view its far from being realistic in terms of knife offense/defense. The attacker seems to be using the tanto like a bait item and not a weapon as the attacker is perceived to be on the defensive. The students are able to grab because the fear of getting slashed is non existant allowing the knife wielder to be a non threat. If i may make suggestion I would speed up the knife thrusts. There was alot of openings where that If I was the guy with the knife and someone grabbed me, their hand is the first thing getting stabbed/ or I would pull them in and stab their chest. Once you get a few stabs in the chest your pretty much immobile, no mattter how strong you are. This aint the movies. But I do like the exercise, just make sure you let the students know that its not '"true" knife disarmarment technique.

As far as the legal status of weapon use for defense. I always carry something. I like to have the option.

Can I suggest dropping this exercise completely?
From what I can glean from the video it seems to get everyone doing terrible techniques in an unlikely scenario.

Why is the knifeman not cheerfully murdering all the unarmed victims?
Why are the wrestlers not just clinching and dragging the knifeman to the floor for their mates to finish him off?
Why do this silly 'training'. Do something more useful.

I notices quite ineffective armlocks being gently applied by the unarmed wrestlers ... they would benefit greatly from more training in the vicious application of disabling armlocks.

Uke's team up.
You'r e ignoring damages from the blade, so sacrifice one as the others bum-rush nage. (no-one is hurt anyway) and you learn coordinated pack type attacks.
If no mind is payed to being "cut" or "stabbed" then the game is all in favor of the attackers.
Otherwise, (real-knife mentality) the options are all weighted in nages favor...unlimited movement with handswitches, odd angles, etc. unless you allow free attcks for the ukes also with atemi, and all options for the attack.

Fun to play though ....we do stuff with tantos as well, just playing around.
Lan

I would personally would like this mess not to continue, it is dangerous training like this, where everything just look like a twister!
the instructor even knows aikido? I haven't even seen any basic move! hes just jumping around, twisting,holding hands and badging in..

All the technical tip's are noted. One of the most surprising things to me when I first started with non cooperative was how hard it was. My techniques no longer looked precise and clean, and lots of things were rushed through. If you haven’t done much noncooperative work it can be hard to understand what you are seeing, and why it doesn't look like the cooperative stuff. If any of you have some clips of you doing noncooperative I’d love to see them!

Pierre Kewcharoen,
Very perceptive. We are indeed using the knife as “bait”. It is our hope that the attacker will be encouraged to attempt to grab the knife hand , thus we can have a moment of “Aiki”. This is much as you would see in the forms practice “katate dori Tai no Henko, Ki no nagare”.

Christian Moses,
I have never been in a knife fight, neither have most “knife experts”, that was my point. I theorize, train, and listen to those who have been unfortunate enough to find themselves at the wrong (or right) end of a knife. Some have been in many knife encounters, those people should be listened to. Others just repeat what they hear, they should be questioned.

Look anyone can prearrange a fight and make it look awesome. I think the people in Hollywood are better then the best of Shihan. However putting yourself out there in an unknown situation is another thing. Some people want to be tricked with parlor tricks and pretty lights, others seek to make themselves better-to each his own.