Lance beat cancer, and will beat the cancer on his team: Alberto "The Cancer" Conta..

Warning: Possible TDF spoiler as I give out the probably winner of the tour in this discussion.

I've solved the whole AC needs a nickname problem. We can call him Alberto "The Cancer" Contador, as he fittingly is the cancer on the team, wanting to be selfish and follow his own interest on Astana destroying the team unity, rather than Lance who plays fair with no surprises, and follows the team game plan like a good soldier. But just like the cancer in the literal sense, Lance will once against beat this new breed of cancer that wants to spread itself on the Astana team, in the form of Alberto Contador.

Let's talk about Lance's position on the team.

I feel Lance has played fair the whole tour, working for the team as a fellow GC contender at this point. He even helped Levi secure his 3rd straight victory in the Tour of California earlier during his comeback by being a domestique for him. Only reason Lance gained seconds on Contador in stage 3 in the TDF is because Contador fell asleep, and Lance shouldn't have to pay for other team member's mistakes.

I think Contador took offense to Lance surpassing him in stage 3 even though it was AC's own fault that caused him to lose time on him, which is why he attacked on Stage 7. AC felt inadequate and like he had something to prove.

AC is even more stupid for attacking Lance in an early mountain stage. Don't forget that once you push your body to that limit, you are hurting yourself in the long wrong. The TDF is like an energy bank. You only have so much money in the bank at the start of the race. Eventually you will reach your withdrawal limit, and AC is on the road to learning this lesson the hard way. Fact that AC couldn't even pull that much time on Lance also makes you wonder about AC's form..is he that good? We both know that Lance and Evans is better on longer time trials. The 1st time trial was relatively short. Last one is a lot longer. Lance is better on longer time trials, and so is Evans.

Let's not forget that AC could burn himself out on the mountain stages and suffer a bad time trial at the end, especially since there is some speculation of about possible dissention among the ranks due to AC's ill advised attack. So some members may be reluctant to help AC.

Plus you got a pssed of Texan that has been known to overcome any obstacle when he's angry. One of those big obstacles that come to mind is cancer. After cancer made him angry, he won seven tours. With Alberto "The Cancer" Contador making him angry, I fear that Lance is going to unleash the pain on AC very soon. Let's hope Lance doesn't demoralize AC to the point that AC will quit early.

I didn't want to spoil the race for you guys, but that is what is probably going to happen, unless Lance crashes and gets injured.

Last edited by DenisMenchov; 07-12-09 at 05:00 AM.
Reason: Mixed up the stages

Warning: Possible TDF spoiler as I give out the probably winner of the tour in this discussion.

I've solved the whole AC needs a nickname problem. We can call him Alberto "The Cancer" Contador, as he fittingly is the cancer on the team, wanting to be selfish and follow his own interest on Astana destroying the team unity, rather than Lance who plays fair with no surprises, and follows the team game plan like a good soldier. But just like the cancer in the literal sense, Lance will once against beat this new breed of cancer that wants to spread itself on the Astana team, in the form of Alberto Contador.

Let's talk about Lance's position on the team.

I feel Lance has played fair the whole tour, working for the team as a fellow GC contender at this point. He even helped Levi secure his 3rd straight victory in the Tour of California earlier during his comeback by being a domestique for him. Only reason Lance gained seconds on Contador in stage 3 in the TDF is because Contador fell asleep, and Lance shouldn't have to pay for other team member's mistakes.

I think Contador took offense to Lance surpassing him in stage 3 even though it was AC's own fault that caused him to lose time on him, which is why he attacked on Stage 7. AC felt inadequate and like he had something to prove.

AC is even more stupid for attacking Lance in an early mountain stage. Don't forget that once you push your body to that limit, you are hurting yourself in the long wrong. The TDF is like an energy bank. You only have so much money in the bank at the start of the race. Eventually you will reach your withdrawal limit, and AC is on the road to learning this lesson the hard way. Fact that AC couldn't even pull that much time on Lance also makes you wonder about AC's form..is he that good? We both know that Lance and Evans is better on longer time trials. The 1st time trial was relatively short. Last one is a lot longer. Lance is better on longer time trials, and so is Evans.

Let's not forget that AC could burn himself out on the mountain stages and suffer a bad time trial at the end, especially since there is some speculation of about possible dissention among the ranks due to AC's ill advised attack. So some members may be reluctant to help AC.

Plus you got a pssed of Texan that has been known to overcome any obstacle when he's angry. One of those big obstacles that come to mind is cancer. After cancer made him angry, he won seven tours. With Alberto "The Cancer" Contador making him angry, I fear that Lance is going to unleash the pain on AC very soon. Let's hope Lance doesn't demoralize AC to the point that AC will quit early.

I didn't want to spoil the race for you guys, but that is what is probably going to happen, unless Lance crashes and gets injured.

First Lance needs to overcome the "cancer" in his own heart of taking too much offense at AC moves. In years past Lance would have done the same thing or worse being in the same position as AC. And his anger is not really wholly justified so it is a weakness rather than a strength. And by the way, Lance's cancer did not make him more angry. Sure, he had some anger at the cancer but most of his anger came from long before that. If anything his cancer made him less angry and more humble but at the same time more determined. It turned him into a more introspective and thoughtful person. Sure, he still has his faults and now he is being the same tyrant towards AC that society was towards him as a child. This has a tendency to come about when you are too concerned about winning or your position of power. And the reason this is such a big deal for Lance is because the TDF is his race. It's his baby. But guess what, It's AC's baby also.

I doubt Lance didn't make a move 'cause he's such a great teammate. If he had it inside, he'd done it. AC did Lance a favor, Lance got to look like a good teammate while sucking wheel to survive. If Lance didn't have a wheel, it'd had been 30~40 seconds...The real test is coming, if Lance can still climb in the Alps, then I'm wrong.

At what point has Lance deviated from the TEAM's plan? When has HE hurt the team? The answer.... he hasn't.

Now ask the same question about Contador.

You don't attack your own teammates like that.

The big problem is that the team strategy suits LA and Levi better than it does Contador. Astana could have put some serious hurt on the the other GC contenders in that stage. The idea of not wanting yellow early is foolish. They've pretty much been doing most of the work and controlling the peloton without it. This idea of waiting until the final stages to make a big move only suits LA, Levi, and the other GC contenders. If the team ramped up the pace earlier in the stage and then launched AC, he would have minutes on everyone. Does anyone really think Evans or Sastre would be a serious threat then? No. Hell, Contador gained 20 seconds in less than 2k on that climb. He should have launched earlier.

The big problem is that the team strategy suits LA and Levi better than it does Contador. Astana could have put some serious hurt on the the other GC contenders in that stage. The idea of not wanting yellow early is foolish. They've pretty much been doing most of the work and controlling the peloton without it. This idea of waiting until the final stages to make a big move only suits LA, Levi, and the other GC contenders. If the team ramped up the pace earlier in the stage and then launched AC, he would have minutes on everyone. Does anyone really think Evans or Sastre would be a serious threat then? No. Hell, Contador gained 20 seconds in less than 2k on that climb. He should have launched earlier.

Then AC should have joined a different team if he didn't like their strategy. I'm sure their strategy was discussed prior to stage 5.

At what point has Lance deviated from the TEAM's plan? When has HE hurt the team? The answer.... he hasn't.

Now ask the same question about Contador.

You don't attack your own teammates like that.

Armstrong hurt the team when he joined them. A year ago, Contador was the undisputed team leader, and then Lance joins. If Armstrong wanted to be a team leader when coming back from retirement, he should have joined another team. On joining Astana he should have realized Contador was the team leader - had been for at least 2 years - and that he, Armstrong, would only be a super-domestique.

IMHO Armstrong has done nothing but hurt the team since he joined. He wanted the first ITT to determine the team leadership UNTIL he only finished 4th out of his team.

Then AC should have joined a different team if he didn't like their strategy. I'm sure their strategy was discussed prior to stage 5.

Uh, Contador was on the team first. He's won 3 grand tours in the last two years. Contador was clearly the number one rider on Astana. LA is the one that showed up after being out 4 years. He still hasn't demonstrated that he's really riding better than Levi. I repeat, Lance has not proven on the road at any point this season that he's a better rider than Alberto Contador. He's doing a fine job. Better than most had thought. But you can't honestly say that Lance is clearly the better rider. A lot of people are hoping that's the case, but they can't point out to anything definitively states that case.

If its about "winning as a team" then why isn't their strategy built around winning with their best rider. Astana was fine team well before Lance came back. Lance caused the rift. Why exactly should Contador have left? Why should Astana want him gone? He's 26 years old and clearly is going to be a GC threat for several years to come. All Lance has to do is say, "I'm here to support the team. Alberto is the number one rider we support him." If AC falters, Astana has several back up guys like Levi, Kloden, and Lance.

Why in the hell should Alberto Contador ride a strategy that best suits riders like Lance and Levi?

Sheesh, I'm not a Lance hater, but I think a lot of people are just being unreasonalble and biased in their viewing of the situation.

He wanted the first ITT to determine the team leadership UNTIL he only finished 4th out of his team.

Exactly. He got dropped on most of the climbs at the Giro. He's still trying to get to his peak form. So the team should adapt a strategy that suits him? Doesn't make any sense. He's in the position he's in because of a fortunate break that was caused by another team tracking down a breakaway. Good for him. That's experience. But can you really count on that winning all the marbles? Contador demontrated what he can do both at the ITT and on that climb. Why should he take the back seat? I cracks me up that people avoid some painfully obvious questions.

LA is the one that showed up after being out 4 years. He still hasn't demonstrated that he's really riding better than Levi. I repeat, Lance has not proven on the road at any point this season that he's a better rider than Alberto Contador.

There was a point in the Giro where Lance could have went on a climb, but decided to wait and help Levi.

Lance has proven to be a better team player. Also, he has proven that he is a smarter rider by staying in the front on stage 3 recognizing a possible move by Team Columbia due to the cross winds. AC didn't recognize this, and if he is such a great rider as you say, how come he didn't bridge the gap on stage 3? That's what I thought.

So now AC gets mad at Lance and deviates from the agreed team strategy to spite Astana because he feels he needs time on Lance for some reason, when he is suppose to be some kind of "God" in the mountains and there are plenty of mountain stages for AC to gain advantages. Seems to me that AC is stupid and selfish, and is prepared to bring his team down as long as it benefits himself.

There was a point in the Giro where Lance could have went on a climb, but decided to wait and help Levi.

Which channel did you watch?
I don think Lance raced the Giro in the last 8 years until this year.
If you are talking about this year, you must be drunk right now, or even worse, have Lance fever.
Lance got dropped in the Giro after leaving Levi behind. He then started going backwards because he had cracked at that pace.

Your pathetic attempt to hate on Contador needs some work. Your Lance worshipping is going strong though. You juts might be a lover and not a hater.

Uh, Contador was on the team first. He's won 3 grand tours in the last two years. Contador was clearly the number one rider on Astana. LA is the one that showed up after being out 4 years. He still hasn't demonstrated that he's really riding better than Levi. I repeat, Lance has not proven on the road at any point this season that he's a better rider than Alberto Contador. He's doing a fine job. Better than most had thought. But you can't honestly say that Lance is clearly the better rider. A lot of people are hoping that's the case, but they can't point out to anything definitively states that case.

If its about "winning as a team" then why isn't their strategy built around winning with their best rider. Astana was fine team well before Lance came back. Lance caused the rift. Why exactly should Contador have left? Why should Astana want him gone? He's 26 years old and clearly is going to be a GC threat for several years to come. All Lance has to do is say, "I'm here to support the team. Alberto is the number one rider we support him." If AC falters, Astana has several back up guys like Levi, Kloden, and Lance.

Why in the hell should Alberto Contador ride a strategy that best suits riders like Lance and Levi?

Sheesh, I'm not a Lance hater, but I think a lot of people are just being unreasonalble and biased in their viewing of the situation.

Did lance create the game plan? I didn't know that was his job. Just because lance joined the team after AC doesn't mean AC can't decide Astana isn't serving his best interests and join a different team. I mean if he is clearly the better rider he should be able to win without guys like Levi and Lance on his team. Like I said, I'm sure AC knew the TEAMs game plan going into this tour. If he didn't like it, there's the door.

That said, you are correct, I am biased and I do want Lance to prove all the doubters wrong. If contador wins, so be it. I won't be that upset as long as Lance gets on the podium.

It is better for cycling if Lance does win. A much more interesting story.

Lance is the "sidney crosby" of cycling. One of the best guys out there, but people really passionate about the sport are sick of hearing about him.

There was a point in the Giro where Lance could have went on a climb, but decided to wait and help Levi.

Lance has proven to be a better team player. Also, he has proven that he is a smarter rider by staying in the front on stage 3 recognizing a possible move by Team Columbia due to the cross winds. AC didn't recognize this, and if he is such a great rider as you say, how come he didn't bridge the gap on stage 3? That's what I thought.

So now AC gets mad at Lance and deviates from the agreed team strategy to spite Astana because he feels he needs time on Lance for some reason, when he is suppose to be some kind of "God" in the mountains and there are plenty of mountain stages for AC to gain advantages. Seems to me that AC is stupid and selfish, and is prepared to bring his team down as long as it benefits himself.

If you thought AC should have bridged that gap, you were mistaken. AC didn't bridge the gap because he was in the middle of the peloton, with all of the other Astana riders except LA and Zubeldia. Nobody could bridge the gap because Columbia had 9 men at the front putting down the hammer during heavy cross winds. That's just a ridiculous statement. Kudos for Lance for being at the front. That was his experience and smarts. But if you slam AC for not, then hammer Levi, Kloden and all of the other GC contenders for it as well. Because they got stuck as well.

You're other statement doesn't really make sense. AC was getting time on all of the GC contenders. Not just LA. Actually, the best stages for him to gain time is on mountain top finishes and ITTs. There aren't many of those. There has been one ITT and one mountain top finish. AC has gained time on ALL of the GC contenders on both stages. LA lost time at the ITT and stayed even with the other during the mountain top finish so far. Heck, during the ITT, LA was 4th on his own team.

I was really hoping that Lance would actually use this Tour as an opportunity to publicize his cancer charity efforts (his stated reason for coming back) and play the good soldier and help out Contador. I think that, as some articles I have read have stated, would get him in good favor with the French, and that could only help his legacy. Unfortunately, he doesn't feel the need to stick to his plan (or that was never his plan in the first place). If Lance continues to fight for the yellow jersey, I will actually lose respect for him.

One thing, though, is that Contador has already had to fight off a teammate to win the Tour before, so he does have experience with this.

Did lance create the game plan? I didn't know that was his job. Just because lance joined the team after AC doesn't mean AC can't decide Astana isn't serving his best interests and join a different team. I mean if he is clearly the better rider he should be able to win without guys like Levi and Lance on his team. Like I said, I'm sure AC knew the TEAMs game plan going into this tour. If he didn't like it, there's the door.

Bruyneel created the plan. But its obvious which way its slanted. We don't know when the plan was revealed to the team. But again, you don't answer the question as to why a strategy should be set up that suits the riding of Lance and Levi instead of Contador. Why? I just don't understand why its Contador that should be forced out. Seems foolish, if winning is the ultimate goal.

At least you admit your bias. Your right, it would be a great story. I really wish Lance would have choosen to ride for one of the American teams. That would have been a greater story. I think he underestimated how good Columbia and Garmin would be. He probably could have gotten Levi to follow him. Lance, Levi, and Vandevelde on Garmin would have been a pretty solid team. Even if LA didn't win but managed to help Levi or Christian win on and American team would have been really cool.

Which channel did you watch?
I don think Lance raced the Giro in the last 8 years until this year.
If you are talking about this year, you must be drunk right now, or even worse, have Lance fever.
Lance got dropped in the Giro after leaving Levi behind. He then started going backwards because he had cracked at that pace.

Lance actually, looks a lot better than he did at the Giro this year. But he hasn't tried to attack or go with a serious attack on a climb yet. But during the Giro, I was thinking he was wouldn't crack the top 20 at the TdF. He's done a great job improving his form and shedding some excess retirement weight.

There was a point in the Giro where Lance could have went on a climb, but decided to wait and help Levi.

Lance has proven to be a better team player. Also, he has proven that he is a smarter rider by staying in the front on stage 3 recognizing a possible move by Team Columbia due to the cross winds. AC didn't recognize this, and if he is such a great rider as you say, how come he didn't bridge the gap on stage 3? That's what I thought.

So now AC gets mad at Lance and deviates from the agreed team strategy to spite Astana because he feels he needs time on Lance for some reason, when he is suppose to be some kind of "God" in the mountains and there are plenty of mountain stages for AC to gain advantages.

And that was one of them, and he did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenisMenchov

Seems to me that AC is stupid and selfish, and is prepared to bring his team down as long as it benefits himself.

So, 1st you say he should gain advantages in the mountains, and then you hate on him for gaining an advantage in the mountains? Huh?

Lance actually, looks a lot better than he did at the Giro this year. But he hasn't tried to attack or go with a serious attack on a climb yet. But during the Giro, I was thinking he was wouldn't crack the top 20 at the TdF. He's done a great job improving his form and shedding some excess retirement weight.