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I Humor a Friend (And Now You Too!)

Posted on: April 7, 2008 - 4:57pm

Kevin R Brown

Posts: 3142

Joined: 2007-06-24

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I Humor a Friend (And Now You Too!)

One of my most prized friends believes in ghosts. Her and I have more or less just agreed to disagree on the issue and tried to avoid bringing it up, but - of course - it tends to crop-up here or there. It did again last night, and - as she always has - she stood unshakably on the grounds that there is far too much photographic and, recently, video evidence, to remain skeptical of the existence of ghosts. She linked me to a couple YouTube videos, and asked me to humor her and take a look.

(She also linked to a couple more which were photo montages. I'm not going to address them here because photographs are far too easy to manipulate convincingly than video is)

The first thing to going ahead and lay out on the table as a sign of piss poor 'investigation' or 'research' is the use of presupposition. We're told what we're supposed to be seeing before being shown any footage, and in many cases the narration only furthers this along. This intentionally erodes the viewer's objectivity.

Viewing with the sound turned off helps (though, in many cases, we still have on screen text throwing-out serving as a leash).

That being said:

Exhibit A

Well, I'll give these clips this: With the exception of two (both of them G/H/O/S/T clips: the scene in the graveyard and the scene taken while driving), no natural phenomena I'm aware of can account for what's being filmed. Either the filmer is fabricating a hoax or they have actually captured the supernatural on film.

Now, do we have compelling evidence to give credit to the latter notion?

Parapsychologists are fond of pointing-out that video and photographic imagery of this calber would likely be admissable as credible evidence in any other established body of study. The problem here is the word established. It was through rigorous testing and exploration that current scientific bodies of knowledge were established, and through the same process that they continue to grow. Parapsychology is not established to the same degree, so it should not enjoy the same benefit of the doubt.

The claim being made is extraordinary: there are spectral entities amok in our world, of whatever nature, capable of exerting physical force on people and objects.

Evidence supporting this claim must, therefore, be equally extraordinary before it becomes compelling.

Take a look at the 'poltergeist' activity. How often are we shown a full view of an object in motion, allowed to follow it's full movement path and shown where it ends up? Why are even the most allegedly troublesome of poltergeists apparently content with sliding tables and chairs around, rather than violently overturning them or levitating them through the air (as with smaller objects)? Moreover, why are the interactions limited to one object at a time? I would argue that watching all of one's kitchen drawers open-up and begin exchanging cutlery, glasses and dishes through the air would be far more frightening and far better evidence than a series of movements of single pieces of furniture.

Exhibit B and C

All of the above still applies, with the exception of 'The Mist' being very easily dismissed as a natural phenomena. I'd like to highlight here, however, the circular reasoning that binds this kind of irrational thinking to other kinds of irrational thinking. Even if we gave the family being 'attacked by a poltergeist' the benefit of the doubt, how can one arbitrarily stake the claim that 'the ghost is of the devil'. Since I claim one exists, the other must too, and vice-versa.

The other thing to note is the passing mention of expert analysis, often without the inclusion of said analysis's results (or even, for that matter, the expert's credentials) - giving us very clear evidence already of dishonesty on the part of documentary maker.

Quote:

so wat wud be gud enuff evidence 4 u?

She asked me this after I explained the above to her, and the question is fair enough.

Well, the best sort of evidence would be physical. Since the alleged nature of ghosts appears to make this impossible, 'good enough' film evidence would have to be really damn good:

- The phenomena would be to be shot from multiple cameras from multiple angles. This would make direct film tampering an extremely unlikely candidate for producing what is seen.

- No 'wishing to remain anonymous', closed-door bullshit, with the occassional appearance on a talk show or special interest 'documentary'. Someone on the verge of making a fantastic new discovery should act like it. There should be full media coverage to give full and accountable public scrutiny and disclosure regarding the claims.

- The paranormal activity and/or manifestation must be in plain sight, preferably diretly centered in the lens of a majority of the cameras that are capturing it. It must also be clearly paranormal, of high enough resolution to make out clear details, and the cameras should not be shaky.

Those are my big three. I'm sure other members here would have other qualifiers.

So, she says she'll try to dig up something that meets those three criteria for me to look at. While she's at it:

I presume at least a couple of theists here believe in demonic poltergeist attacks? Do you happen to know of compelling film evidence I could look at? While I humor a friend, I suppose I'll humor you as well.

Quote:

"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

My youtube is not working now, but I do know people that are atheist and weak agnostic/leaning atheist that do believe in ghosts. Of those few people, they are related to each other and both claim to have seen momentary "glimpses" in reflections where they said they had seen a ghost of a departed loved one and that is their basis. While there are many possible explanations for this(other than the obvious, "perhaps that was a ghost), they hold very true to this conviction because it was a personal observation that they experienced in the real world outside of the influence of psychotropic drugs or medications. While I will not rule out the possibility of ghosts(although I do think they are highly improbable, just like God), these experiences are not unlike the religious seeing their culturally identifiable figurehead(Jesus=Christians, Mohammed=Muslims etc) in apparitions. I would say the two are possibly linked, and hopefully the source of these "experiences" will be scientifically provable(eventually).

That being said, I believe there are some things that appear very supernatural when "YOU" are the one who is experiencing them. Eventhough your logical mind will say "what I believe I saw is most likely not the actual phenomenon observed."

I saw this thing on the scifi channel where they debunked different types of UFO accounts/videos, ghosts, supernatural experiences, reincarnation as either fact or fiction(or myth or something like that) and I think most of the ghost accounts and photos were debunked. Although I have seen that Ghost Hunters show only a few times, I think most of the stuff they check out is not in a "skeptical" frame, but more looking for proof of the supernatural and wanting to take every temperature change, light flicker, and background sound as proof of the supernatural.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda

She linked me to a couple YouTube videos, and asked me to humor her and take a look.

I've only watched the first video so far. I'd like you to thank her for humouring us, I was very amused. I was laughing out loud at some of them as a matter of fact.

If she wants to convince people, she shouldn't be linking parody ghost videos. Everything in those can be done VERY easily with off the shelf equipment and software. I especially liked the one with the door that swung open in the exact same manner it then swung closed, and then chairs/tables being moved by people off screen ... can't get more amateurish than that. Well, maybe you can ... that pantry door that swung open to a convenient angle, you hear the latch re-extend as though it was already resting against the door frame and not in the latch. As for the other graphics, I've seen people do things like that on their home computers in a matter of minutes. A bit of cleaning up and bob's you're uncle.

Oh, she call spell just fine. Actually, she's a better linguist than me, most of the time. She just gets 'chat lazy' and shortens all of her words when IMing.

She also has not been able to find a video that met my qualifications. Which disappoints me, actually.

It's funny, in a sad way... I really, really, want somebody to step-up and metaphorically put parapsychology on the map. It's just a very entertaining and exciting field, in my opinion. If only it weren't all a pile of bullshit.

As a result, I'm actually sort of 'extra critical' of it, and pretty harsh when it comes to the video, photographic and testimonial evidence they provide (...the only evidence they can, because they're in the same boat as theists here. The alleged phenomena they 'investigate' has no physical component that they can examine or sample to use as hard evidence). I mean, look at that parking garage footage in Exhibit A. That's just so fucking cool. But as evidence, it's totally worthless, because we have one shot from one angle from one camera, in a static environment, which means it is far too easily edited.

I occassionally feel like trying to set-up a SETI-like organization, but intended for trying to record high-fidelity ghost activity - except, of course, that SETI always had plenty of merit (we know other worlds exist, we know life exists on at least one such planet, it's therefore plausible to hypothesize that other life exists on other planets) whereas any such endeavor tied to trying to seek-out apparitions would be largely baseless (there is no plausible reason for hypothesizing that ghosts exist anywhere). Still, if I ever have the extra capital at my disposal, I'm investing in some high-res camcorders and will happily go waste my time 'spook hunting', until I either do the incredible or become bored as the novelty wears off.

Quote:

"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

Oh, she call spell just fine. Actually, she's a better linguist than me,

...than I, ...

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov

To a degree, I do believe in some strange things. I don't think their supernatural and I absolutely believe that they could be explained with science. However, I have seen and experienced too many strange events to not believe that there's some strange things that we may perceive as ghosts.

For instance, in the past three years or so, I've had about 2-3 instances per year where I am with my wife and some electric appliance just comes on.

Here are a few examples:

1) Our microwave oven set for popcorn came on. It scared us so much because we were just watching TV and we heard some sound coming from the kitchen and the oven was on.

2) We were in the kitchen and the TV came on.

3) We were at a friend's house and while he was in the kitchen getting us some drinks, the TV came on in his living room.

4) The light in the bar in my parent's house came on while my parents, my wife, and I were talking in the kitchen.

5) My laptops and computers have come on without apparent reason a couple of times.

Now, I know that there could have been some power fluctuations, some timer, self-waking mechanism, etc. That's all fine but it has been a little bit strange that it only started happening around the last three years.

Another experience I've had was seeing strange people inside my house one night and then lights, as though from a car, by the window of a second story house where I was staying. There was a lot more to it but it may make me sound too crazy to go into detail. Hallucinations? Possibly.

For instance, in the past three years or so, I've had about 2-3 instances per year where I am with my wife and some electric appliance just comes on.

Here are a few examples:

1) Our microwave oven set for popcorn came on. It scared us so much because we were just watching TV and we heard some sound coming from the kitchen and the oven was on.

2) We were in the kitchen and the TV came on.

3) We were at a friend's house and while he was in the kitchen getting us some drinks, the TV came on in his living room.

4) The light in the bar in my parent's house came on while my parents, my wife, and I were talking in the kitchen.

5) My laptops and computers have come on without apparent reason a couple of times.

Now, I know that there could have been some power fluctuations, some timer, self-waking mechanism, etc. That's all fine but it has been a little bit strange that it only started happening around the last three years.

I've had the same thing happen with modern microwaves and TVs. There are two things to note here:

1) This only seems to apply to modern devices that are plugged-in, with rare exceptions. Most such devices are actually designed by the manufacturer to periodically turn themselves on as a maintenance feature. Rare is the 'ghost' that, say, starts an automobile or turns on a gas stove.

2) Even if the phenomena were exceptionally strange, it's an argument from ignorance to say, 'A poltergeist must be behind it,' or demons, or the Virgin Mary, or whatever have you. It's just a strange phenomena, and while it may certainly be worth investigating, you should do so going-in without a preconcieved notion of what the cause is.

Quote:

"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

For instance, in the past three years or so, I've had about 2-3 instances per year where I am with my wife and some electric appliance just comes on.

Here are a few examples:

1) Our microwave oven set for popcorn came on. It scared us so much because we were just watching TV and we heard some sound coming from the kitchen and the oven was on.

2) We were in the kitchen and the TV came on.

3) We were at a friend's house and while he was in the kitchen getting us some drinks, the TV came on in his living room.

4) The light in the bar in my parent's house came on while my parents, my wife, and I were talking in the kitchen.

5) My laptops and computers have come on without apparent reason a couple of times.

Now, I know that there could have been some power fluctuations, some timer, self-waking mechanism, etc. That's all fine but it has been a little bit strange that it only started happening around the last three years.

I've had the same thing happen with modern microwaves and TVs. There are two things to note here:

1) This only seems to apply to modern devices that are plugged-in, with rare exceptions. Most such devices are actually designed by the manufacturer to periodically turn themselves on as a maintenance feature. Rare is the 'ghost' that, say, starts an automobile or turns on a gas stove.

2) Even if the phenomena were exceptionally strange, it's an argument from ignorance to say, 'A poltergeist must be behind it,' or demons, or the Virgin Mary, or whatever have you. It's just a strange phenomena, and while it may certainly be worth investigating, you should do so going-in without a preconcieved notion of what the cause is.

I'm not saying a poltergeist or a ghost did it. However, I am saying that I do believe that certain phenoma exist that people have attributed to ghosts. Whether they're hallucinations, lights, imagination, wishful thinking, etc, I'm not sure.

I agree with that we need a true scientific study but preconceived notions are not a bad thing for science. However that notion or hypothesis must be based on science.

I'm not saying a poltergeist or a ghost did it. However, I am saying that I do believe that certain phenoma exist that people have attributed to ghosts. Whether they're hallucinations, lights, imagination, wishful thinking, etc, I'm not sure.

I agree with that we need a true scientific study but preconceived notions are not a bad thing for science. However that notion or hypothesis must be based on science.

I think my favourite was using rain or dust twisters as "ghosts". I actually said, "Oh, come ON!" at the screen. Do you call those mini-tornadoes "twisters" in Oz? Or, like, "flabumaroos"? "Wizzlefloozles"? It's my considered opinion that Australians should be responsible for naming everything.