The following exchange, between former New Jersey governors Brendan T. Byrne and Tom Kean took place in a Tuesday teleconference.

Q: By moving New Jersey's primary earlier, have we achieved our goal of making New Jersey matter in the selection of a presidential candidate?

BYRNE: Not at all. We should have kept it in June — and this June, ironically, might have been critical in determining at least the Democratic candidate, maybe both candidates. It looks like there may be no decision next week, and in that case people would be focused on June. Now we're just part of the crowd.

KEAN: I think we should have moved up — but not to the same day as everybody else. To put ourselves on the same day as California and New York, well I don't know who could have thought that made any sense. If it were on a day when New Jersey could stand alone, or even with a smaller state, that would get us attention.

BYRNE: Can't you see we could be the deciding state in June?

KEAN: We were always in June, and that never happened.

BYRNE: It may have happen this time. But I think we ought to talk about how (Rudy) Guiliani's money got him nowhere, and what that says about money and politics. It's not as decisive as we think it is. Here's a man who spent a bundle in Florida, and he didn't do very well.

KEAN: I don't think it's a question of money, but of strategy. The guy who's spending the money is Romney, a billionaire, has spent more than anyone else in the Republican field. If he weren't spending so much he might not be a viable contender. Money still counts for a lot.

BYRNE: A lot, but it's not decisive. I think candidates without money in New Jersey ought to be encouraged to see that there's more than one way to win an election other than buying it.

KEAN: I hope you're right. But money still remains the cancer on the political system.

Q: What odds would you put on Gov. Jon Corzine getting his toll plan through?

BYRNE: Wrong question. It should be "getting a toll plan through." What he's going to end up with is a program that represents a consensus. He's presented an idea, but he has to tell the Legislature this is what we have to work with. And I think he'll find the Legislature will work with him toward something that solves the problem.

KEAN: The program as he has spelled it out is dead on arrival. But he deserves credit for at least presenting an idea. Now we've got to see what the backup plans are. What are his alternatives? What suggestions will come from the Legislature? Out of that may come a package that gets through. But we've still a long way to go.

BYRNE: I think the governor has adopted your concept that there have to be substantial spending cuts in the package, and that may be the toughest part of the plan, because budget cuts are painful.

KEAN: As long as they're real budget cuts and not the kind made for political effect, only to be restored at a later date.

Q: In his state of the state address, Corzine said he was freezing the budget. To do that he will actually have to make cuts. Given the portion of the budget that can't be touched, just where should he look to find those cuts?

KEAN: Let's first admit he hasn't done that. He's already announced a large increase in school spending, and he wants to borrow $2.5 billion for construction. For serious cuts, you have to look at the large departments — Human Services, Transportation, etc. That's where the real money is. So that's where you have to look if you want real cuts.

BYRNE: In the education field he's got to deal with the Supreme Court of New Jersey, which has mandated a certain amount of capital spending. And he has to stop accepting that there are mandated items. The cost of living increases ought to be looked at.

KEAN: Amen. The whole program, as it's shaping up, requires an enormous amount of new borrowing. That would compound the mistakes of the past, and saddle another generation with debt.

Q: Is there any end in sight for our spiraling education expenses?

KEAN: Not unless we slow the increase in spending. We've spent a tremendous amount with very little to show. We spend more per pupil than any other state, and have for some time, and taxpayers have not seen enough measurable results.

BYRNE: I think the Supreme Court is trying to be more realistic in understanding that we have a limited amount of money in New Jersey, and that education is just one of our priorities. I think we'll see the court become less tolerant of supporting programs that cost a lot of money.

KEAN: The best thing the court could do is to continue some of the programs spelled out in its last decision, which tied spending to research and reform. Money has been wasted. Investigations show that there was corruption and waste in the school construction program. The administration and the court must not allow that to happen again.