Popular White Paper On This Topic

Adam, I know you indicated you'd narrowed down to these two, but you
might find the following case study interesting. A growing apparel
business, tempted by SAP Business One, but opting for a very different
path - one which has been very successful for them:

>Looking for a bit of guidance. We are selecting an ERP platform for
>a growing business and have narrowed the search to the 2 mentioned
>in the subject line.
>
>I am getting feedback that SAP is moving away from Business One to
>Software as a Service type model. I have also heard conflicting
>information on scalability within Business One.
>
>Any information on MS Dynamics? We are torn at this point and would
>like some non-bias outside feedback on these 2 platforms.
>
>Apparel business, outsourced production, pack and ship used for
>inventory management.

Giving any guidance at all is pretty much impossible given the
information so far. "MS Dynamics" is *not* a platform. It's
Microsoft's brand name for 4 completely separate platforms.
Which one of the 4 are we talking here?

The description of your business is so small it's hard to
know what business you're even in. By saying "outsourced
production" does that mean you're not even a manufacturer -
you only distribute clothes? If so, you don't even need
ERP. You should be looking for a package more in tuned
with warehousing and logistics if that's the case. But
just what exactly your requirements are would have to be
given in some serious detail. That's the only way you're
going to get real advice. For example what makes you
worried about scalability? We can't help you know if
it's a concern unless you tell us what kind of scalability
you need. Otherwise the term "scalability" could mean
anything. In any case, when it comes to apparel (either
manufacturing or distribution) none of these products
(including all 4 in the Dynamics line) really come to
mind as first choices.

As for Business One moving to SaaS, that would not be a
shift in the platform but a difference in the way it's
hosted and billed. It would in now way mean they're
"going away from" the product. If anyone is trying to
tell you they have to dump the product just to change
the way the same product is delivered then that's a
serious bait and switch tactic that says a lot about
who's saying it.

I haven't really heard that SAP wants to make B1 SaaS
only - just it's another option. What I do know is
there is another completely different package that SAP
is introducing with an SaaS model called A1S. It's
a new product, it's not meant to overlap with any other
SAP product, and no product is going away in favor of
A1S. Those plans just about anyone can validate off
their web site or multiple trade mags like Infoworld, etc.

Adam,
Most growing apparel companies usually look to a application that is designed specifically for apparel companies. There are many apparel specific solutions out there in many price levels that are nowhere near the prices of the two you mentioned.

Have you set a budget? From working in apparel IT for over thirty years, money will be the number one issue, unless, of course, your company is growing from 500 million upwards.

SAP B1 has some very interesting in-built workflow capabilities which
can be deployed "out of the box" and the only disadvantage of this is
that your organizational processes and procedures needs to be adjusted
to fit within the parameters of the solutions. As for Dynamics Nav,
such capabilities are not available "out of the box" and some
customization (using BizTalk) would be required to deploy such control
capabilities. However, in terms of analysis of management information,
the "Dimensions" concept of MsDynamics Nav are way better that many
other software solutions that I have used.

So, whether it is SaaS or any other approach, it basically depends of
how much management flexibility is required and also the depth of
reporting requirements that you require. I still believe that the
unique functional requirements of your organization should be the key
factors determining the selected solution.

Whenever an ERP company announces a new product, there is always
a tendancy to assume the legacy products are going away. In
SAP's case, they've taken a different approach by segmenting the
markets for Business One, Business by Design and mySAP, each
having a targeted audience and each getting lots of development
and marketing dollars going forward. From what I've heard, B1
is not going away, rather it is being strengthened and given a
much clearer focus on the small to mid market. Business by
Design is an SAAS application designed for mid-tier companies
and is brand new.

Nav is also a good application who's support from Microsoft
appears to be pretty solid.

Being in the apparel industry, you should focus on functionality
first, and then the delivery model second (Client/Server vs
SAAS). For both Nav and B1, you need add-on applications for the
size, style, color matrix that you require on the sales,
purchasing and inventory side of your business. Plus the special
packaging requirements are always tricky as are functionalty for
production and PLM.

In addition, most apparel comapanies have a relationship with a
Factoring company where the AR is outsourced. Is this a
requirement?

SAP has a product specifically targeted at Apparales - AFS (Apparals & Footwear Solutions) - This is meant for SMEs. You may try this product it is a wonderful product from SAP - it supports style, color, packaging, shades, etc. and is very easy to use.

AX is aalso a great product. But from SAP you must insist on seeing SAP AFS. If your current implementation partners is unable to show you SAP AFS, contact SAP directly. but you must see this solution before you make a decision - it is worth the effort. let me know if you need further

Adam first of all you should know that Microsoft has several
business solutions underneath the Dynamics umbrella. Dynamics AX
(formerly Axapta) does have an industry specific offering for
the Apparel sector with the Size, Color, Style grid and full
coverage for Sourcing Managment. This solution is developed
under the Industry Builder arrangement so it has full support
from Microsoft direct.

If i'm not mistaken the AX product also has deep integation in to
a PDM/PLM solution.

Adam,
I think it is better to avoid Vertical industry specific software that is
designed to meet the specific needs of a particular industry.
While some people typically want vertical solutions designed specifically
for their company, an all-purpose solutions Axapta, Navision, Sage ACCPAC &
others with industry 3rd party add-ons maybe a better bet.

These have such wide installed based and and is well proven - used by tens
of thousands of businesses. They are also stable product - well tested and
nearly bug free. You can expect good support from knowledgeable vendors in
your area.

This may be true, but a small growing apparel company needs a lower
end solution than AX, and needs something that has all the tools,
reports and functionality they need, in a simply to support environment.
I don't think that AX fits that bill, as good a platform as it is.

Please feel free to review my blog
(http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/erp/smb) for more information about
SAP B1 and Dynamics NAV. I have been working with both products
for years and I am also certified on both products. SAP B1 is as
far as I am concerned not a product that should be considered
unless you are looking for basic ERP application. If you are
looking at implementing a product that you will not outgrow in
the long term, that is built on a stable platform and that can
be easily flexed and enhanced to fit your specific current and
future needs, then Microsoft Dynamics NAV is the choice.
SAP B1 is generally buggy and lacks deep functionality. The
product is a mile long and an inch deep, which basically means
that when looking at overview demos and read the sales and
marketing material from SAP about the application, it sounds
like it does it all however when you actually get into using the
application and want to take it a step further you are pretty
much screwed (pardon my French).
I think that B1 is probably going away in the long term and will
be replaced by A1S depending on the success of A1S of course. If
it does not go away it is more likely that it will become a pure
small market product, competing with Dynamics SL (Salomon),
Quickbooks Enterprise and Microsoft Office Accounting. B1 is not
for growth businesses or more complex businesses.
Dynamics NAV works great in the appeal or clothing business, we
have mid market clients in this type of business that run NAV.
Their solution is enhanced of course you do not run NAV straight
out of the box. NAV was built and is meant for being flexed and
enhanced in order to fit specific organizations processes. No
other product that I have seen or worked with can be tailored to
a specific business or industry as well and easily as NAV. Note
that the product does not need to be enhanced because it lacks
functionality, NAV is has very strong and rich functionality out
of the box (much much more the B1). NAV is flexed and enhanced
in order to streamline and make a business process more
efficient. The alternative (not enhancing the solution) is to
live with how the â€œout of the boxâ€ point application defined
that all the worldâ€™s organizations should handle that specific
process in an â€œindustry standardâ€ way.

Paul,
1st I agree with Paul - not enough input to make any recommendation.

Robert,
2nd if you can find a good vertical solution why for heaven's sake would you
prefer a solution that is more expensive to implement and will require an
add-on?

Adam,
I also have an additional question for Adam. Why have to short listed to
only MS and SAP?
If you are considering SAP B1 I question that you are taking into
consideration your future growth if you plan on growing quickly?
If you are considering SAP B1 I would have thought that you would have been
specific and mentioning only MS Great Plains. Nav and AX are really not in
the same category. Which raises more questions about how you have come up
with your short list?

Bill,
There may be some good vertical around but I am not a big fan of
vertical market solutions. Salesman pitch their ware by saying
this is the software designed for your particular industry. And
the prospect feel good, as it seems to be the best solution up
front. With closer evaluation they would have found serious
weaknesses. Often these verticals solution are custom made for
someone, they would even built the Financial & distribution all
in one. May not have enough installed bases or support bases. I
have seen many failures and complaints.

That is why I would recommend to gets a comprehensive system and
its 3rd party add-ons. Mostly these add-ons modules are just and
extension of the core functionality. Sage has great success in
its 3rd party development partners since time immemorial from
the Accpac DOS days. Microsoft has recently a 3rd party
development partners program with each domain experiences and is
showing its fruits. I think SAP is following suitesâ€¦. These
3rd parties are built upon a solid software platform. And you
will be surprise with the pricing.
Regards
Robert

Bill,
There may be some good vertical around but I am not a big fan of vertical
market solutions. Salesman pitch their ware by saying this is the software
designed for your particular industry. And the prospect feel good, as it
seems to be the best solution up front. With closer evaluation they would
have found serious weaknesses. Often these verticals solution are custom
made for someone, they would even built the Financial & distribution all in
one. May not have enough installed bases or support bases. I have seen many
failures and complaints.

That is why I would recommend to gets a comprehensive system and its 3rd
party add-ons. Mostly these add-ons modules are just and extension of the
core functionality. Sage has great success in its 3rd party development
partners since time immemorial from the Accpac DOS days. Microsoft has
recently a 3rd party development partners program with each domain
experiences and is showing its fruits. I think SAP is following suites..
These 3rd parties are built upon a solid software platform. And you will be
surprise with the pricing.
Regards
Robert

If I can find a package like QAD that is a fit for specific industries that
they target (they will actually push you to other vendors if you don't fit
their profiles) -- that is the way to go. Not always the best way in every
case, but I it usually works. MS AX given its design actually is an
exception to the rule given that its Industry Builder solutions are integral
parts of the package not true add-ons.

Generally generic packages like SSA, BAAN, SAP, and Oracle have become
extremely complex trying to be all things to all people. The result is high
failure rates in implementation and very high implementation costs.

Since you are an apparel business check out Advanced Systems
Integegration (ASI) Apparel Footwear Solution
www.advancedsystemsintegration.com or look for it on the
solution finder on Microsoft.com. The ASi apparel solution is
built on Dynamics AX "the flagship ERP" application from
Microsoft.

ASi supports some of the largest manufacturing customers in the
AX channel many of whom outsource production to Asia and/or
South America. ASi has worked with large apparel companies such
as Fox Racing, Sole Technology (Etnies) and Fortune Fashion
Industries and are one of the original Damgaard Partners here in
the United States.

On the MS side we are looking at NAV.
On the SAP side we are are looking at B1 with an apparel specific
module.

The short list is down to these 2 as they seem to best fit our
immediate apparel needs and have the ability to handle the
growth our company is experiencing.

There is not much else to tell about the company at this time. We
need EDI for our larger vendors. We need factoring and the
matrix for SKU'ing will get more complex as we add lines and
gear in 2009. Our business tripled from 06 to 07 and the
projections for 08 are indicate we will continue this trend. 08
will be our third operational year in business. Therefore we
feel we need an ERP class system in place now even if we cannot
use all the functionality.

We are trying to stay away from a vertical solution as future
business plans include alternate revenue streams that are not
apparel specific. We want and need flexibility.

Manufacturing is indeed outsourced but that does not mean we will
not look to take over part or all of it in the future. We just
do not have the capital and expertise to handle this part of the
business at this time.

When I spoke of scalability I should have mentioned "scaling out"
as well as scaling in terms of system capacity. Once again, goes
back to being stuck within a vertical when other opportunities
arise.

As far as SAP moving to ByDesign the feedback I had recieved
indicated that they would move their B1 customers to that
platform. I was concerned about moving their apparel specific
module to a new code base.

I feel you must look at SAP AFS, since it gives you a n-dimension matrix to take care of all the characteristics that you may have.

SAP has solutions in other verticals also. If tomorrow you expand your business, SAP will have the flexibilty and scalability to take care of other business processes also.

SAP Business ByDesign is subscription based meaning SAP will host the solution for you, the charges are 149 USD per user per month. But it is still being developed and will exactly recommend immediately.

I think you must look at SAP AFS. If you arer not convinced then move ahead. But having a look at AFS is really worth the effort. I am sure you will change your mind once you have seen the product. Just remember, with SAP you naturally have flexibity and scalability. You can still

Adam - let me qualify myself by saying that I have very high
contacts within the SAP US operations as well as the Microsoft
Dynamics group. Your comment that SAP would move their B1
customers to Business By Design is unfounded, false and has not
been announced or even hinted at by SAP. Sounds to me like a
remark from a competitor. Who gave you that feedback?

As you evaluate ERP applications, don't listen to the negative
comments spewed by salespeople, do your homework.

On the SAPB1 side of the house you say your looking at an apparel
"add-on". A sentence or 2 down you say you may diversify into
other lines of business. Be very careful these "add-ons" are
developed seperately and are not tested for inter-operability.

You also state you might bring (Manufacturing) inside the
company? If this is possibly a simple MATRIX (horizontal) input
screen is a long ways from the necessary functionality you need.
With the ASi Apparel Footwear Solution we provide you
dimensional bill of materials. Most ERP systems do not have a
way to manage (create/activate/deactive/edit)the 000s of BOMS.

As for Dynamics NAV, you aren't looking at any apparel add-on
from Pebblestone? I am not aware of any of the Dynamics
applications working for an apparel company "out of the box".
Either your requirements are tremendously simple or you may be
overlooking something extremeley important.

What about orders? Do you have multiple order types? What about
allocation, do you require hard allocation betweeen an order and
a customer? I already alluded to dimensional BOMS, What about
Available to Ship? In most high volume apparel companies orders
exceed demand. How do you manage that? It sounds like you
might distribute B2b since you need EDI? What about secondary
processes such as labeling and packing cartonization?

You may not need these today but if you grow you will be back in
the market looking for another Dynamics application IF you don't
choose the right one.

>On the MS side we are looking at NAV.
>On the SAP side we are are looking at B1 with an apparel specific
> module.
>
>The short list is down to these 2 as they seem to best fit our
> immediate apparel needs and have the ability to handle the
> growth our company is experiencing.
>
>There is not much else to tell about the company at this time. We
> need EDI for our larger vendors. We need factoring and the
> matrix for SKU'ing will get more complex as we add lines and
> gear in 2009. Our business tripled from 06 to 07 and the
> projections for 08 are indicate we will continue this trend. 08
> will be our third operational year in business. Therefore we
> feel we need an ERP class system in place now even if we cannot
> use all the functionality.
>
>We are trying to stay away from a vertical solution as future
> business plans include alternate revenue streams that are not
> apparel specific. We want and need flexibility.
>
>Manufacturing is indeed outsourced but that does not mean we will
> not look to take over part or all of it in the future. We just
> do not have the capital and expertise to handle this part of the
> business at this time.
>
>When I spoke of scalability I should have mentioned "scaling out"
> as well as scaling in terms of system capacity. Once again, goes
> back to being stuck within a vertical when other opportunities
> arise.
>
>As far as SAP moving to ByDesign the feedback I had recieved
> indicated that they would move their B1 customers to that
> platform. I was concerned about moving their apparel specific
> module to a new code base.

I think this has already been covered that moving the customers
isn't the case. But I'd also like to point out what sounds like
a misconception about such add on modules. You talk about
SAP moving people but moving "their" module to a new code base.
The module is not SAP's, it's a 3rd parties. Moving the code
would having nothing to do with SAP. It was expressed earlier
in a different thread about somehow verticals have to be categorically
dismissed because they don't have a trillion dollar company behind
them. Add-on type solutions have their down sides as well.
Sure maybe the base solution has the backing of huge companies
(and that's not always a good thing either) but when an add on
makes changes to Order Entry, Purchasing, and Inventory just
for starters, then you're relying on the third party for
functionality and support of core business processes. That
third party's reputation, skill, and installed base are
equally as important. If only a few hundred companies use
the add on, then the product is really only proven and used
in that smaller community. Not all add on's are created
equal either - some products have just outstanding capabilities
to seamlessly put together other pieces of software or accept
changes from the standard code base. Others you literally
feel like you're in two separate worlds and trying to get
the two to meet is down right painful. Most systems are
somewhere in between.

I'm not trying to say that add-on's aren't a good idea.
I'm also not trying to say that verticals are perfect.
What I am trying to say is if you haven't given a chance
to *all* packages without prejudice to the "type" then
you haven't fully reviewed the marketplace and the
selection of the "right" choice can't be made.

That said you've got some other real huge issues on the
management side, not necessarily on the systems side.
Are you trying to tell me you have no idea what business
you might be in come 1-2 years? And worse, you're truly
expecting to pick an ERP system now to run that new business??

I can see a couple of possibilities, of course it's really hard
to say much more without some real insight more than an email
can manage:

#1. You're actually not in the apparel business at all. Instead
you're actually in the warehousing and logistics business and it
just happens you're currently moving around clothes. If that's
the case, then a huge mistake has been made in the definition of
the requirements of the business and what packages are selected.
(you should have been thinking about warehousing systems, fulfillment,
and trucking issues)

#2. Naive management believes they can buy or go into a new business
and it will be run the same way as the existing one. If it's truly
a new business, and not just an extension of the old one then it's
going to need it's own software product or it's not going to be
successful. Thinking it's somehow going to be run off the same
system yet a totally different business is fatally flawed. Not
to mention by the time a new business comes along, the technology
world changes so much even the original ERP choice is probably
ready for swapping out. If a new business comes along, it's
guarantee for new software so get used to the idea.

#3. Management has no plan, and in fact won't get to the
point of a new business anyway. Why? Because no matter
what the grandiose ideas of new businesses are, if the
original business wasn't produced out of a solid plan,
it's not going to thrive for long. Having people chase
around buying software for businesses they don't even know
what they are (and aren't in the business planning stages)
isn't useful. It's the business managing you instead of
you managing the business.

Now I don't mean any of that personally when I say "you".
And I also don't have any real sense of which one of those
scenarios but be more probably than another. However I do
have a suggestion about how to tell -

Look at the 5 year business plan. If there isn't even
one then it's #3. If you look at the plan and it's
flawed then it's probably #2. If the plan looks good
then I'd figure #1 although choosing "logistics" as
the possible true core competency is just a guess.

I'm not a big fan of generic solutions. Salesmen pitch their products
without any knowledge of the industry they are selling to. They throw
around buzzwords and convince the customer that, they have the generic
solution to everyone's problem. The fact that they sold it to 2000
other customers in industry A, B and C does not mean it will work for
a customer in industry D.
Often these solutions are so generic they work for no-one without
customization or a ton of configuration. Sometimes modules are built
by different companies that have been acquired and they do not talk to
each other at all. Many have so many installs that when you call for
support you are assigned a number and you have to talk through three
levels of support before you can find anyone even remotely capable of
helping you solve your problem. I have seen many failures and
complaints.

That is why I would recommend that you purchase a system that was
designed to solve the problems you are trying to solve.

Sincerely, with tongue-planted-firmly-in-cheek,

Darrel
Full disclosure: I work for one of those vertical solution developers!

Guess what? Our experiences are diametrically opposite. There is
no absolute right or wrong. Back where I operate from, I have
not seen much success in Industry vertical written ground up for
each vertical. Although customer always think â€œ me uniqueâ€.
In the case under discussion is apparel business. Style, size
color matrix isnâ€™t terribly hard to program into an existing
good generic SO, Inventory, MO and PO modules. So I hear from
the developer themselves as I spoke to them. But they say that
the rule is 80/20. The programmer told me that if the
modification is more than 20% percent to the generics software
then the software is not a good fit. Okay I am not a programmer
so donâ€™t beat me up on this statement.

Sage, Microsoft & Sap seeks the Domain experiences of verticals
industry to enhance their solutions. Not exactly salesman who
know nothing about the industries. Business partner and are
trained and certified on these modules.

I concede that are good apparel or industry specific software for
some, but for other, they will continued to rely on the generic
ERP be it Axapta, Sage or Sap with add-ons functionalities that
they requires.

From a Business One standpoint inside of SAP, I wanted to
clarify a couple of things in this thread.

SAP is not moving away from Business One. SAP Business ByDesign
is a product that does address a portion of the market that SAP
with Business One or Business All-in-One does not current
address. Business One has a product roadmap and investment plan
that currently extends through 2010.

As to the apparel market, Business One does have a solution
specifically for this market that was developed by a partner and
built on top of our platform. That approach is the strategic
direction by which SAP goes to market with Business One in
vertical markets.

Your point has been made clear to me by many sources now. I had received so
me false information from a vendor that will remain nameless.Adam

> From: email@removed To: email@removed Date:
Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:48:56 +0000> Subject: RE:[erp-select] SAP Business One v
s. MS Dynamics> > > > From a Business One standpoint inside of SAP, I wanted t
o> clarify a couple of things in this thread.> > SAP is not moving away fro
m Business One. SAP Business ByDesign> is a product that does address a por
tion of the market that SAP> with Business One or Business All-in-One does
not current> address. Business One has a product roadmap and investment pla
n> that currently extends through 2010.> > As to the apparel market, Busine
ss One does have a solution> specifically for this market that was develope
d by a partner and> built on top of our platform. That approach is the stra
tegic> direction by which SAP goes to market with Business One in> vertical
markets.> > I hope that clarifies our position on both topics.> > Regards>
> Dan Kraus> Vice President, SAP Business One> SAP Americas> > > -----Orig
inal Message-----> Looking for a bit of guidance. We are selecting an ERP p
latform> for a growing business and have narrowed the search to the 2> ment
ioned in the subject line. > > I am getting feedback that SAP is moving awa
y from Business One> to Software as a Service type model. I have also heard
> conflicting information on scalability within Business One. > > Any infor
mation on MS Dynamics? We are torn at this point and> would like some non-b
ias outside feedback on these 2 platforms.> > > Apparel business, outsource
d production, pack and ship used for> inventory management. > > Thanks in a
dvance. > > Adam> > > > > >

The fact that you mention making modifications to SAGE and SAP in the
same
sentence indicates that you really are out of your depth discussing
software
modifications. I would suggest you stop.

However, this does not make your experience in using "vertical" software
invalid. Your comments are very valid that many supposed "vertical"
solutions are in fact just software that was custom written by some
small
consulting firm for a company that had the terminal "We are Unique"
syndrome. The resulting software is rarely a good fit for any company -
including the one that had it custom written. The company many actually
love it because it does everything exactly the way they always did it -
i.e.
they automated their manual systems - rarely a good idea.

Some of these solutions however, where written by people who actually
knew
something about the industry they were developing the software for and
over
years of improvements have created excellent solutions. These vertical
solutions often run rings around the generic ERP solutions. However, to
be
really strong I think they also need to be able to deliver standard ERP
functionality as well. IF you look at QAD you will find an excellent
example of a package that provides the features needed by 4 or 5
verticals,
while providing all of the standard APICS MRPII/ERP functionality along
with
LEAN functionality. In the verticals they support they are stronger
than
SAP, install at a fraction of the cost and time.

With a one size fits all package like SAP or Oracle you get not only
what
you need, but 5 times as many bells and whistle that you do not need or
want. Yet you have to take the time to understand why you don't want
them -
and worse you have to maintain that knowledge base in your company if
you
are ever going to change the software to fit future needs of your
business.
This hidden cost of ownership of SAP and Oracle are just now being felt
by
the big companies that have implemented them.

Hi Adam. After some research and several demontrations on both
products, SAP BO and NAV 5.0, I don't see much difference
between them. My company is a manufacturing company and SAP BO
is using an especial add-on from BE.As company. But again, only
a bit difference in terms of price.

Firstly congrats on narrowing it down to 2 solutions - it is not
an easy process...

The software as service type is a very good model for small to
medium businesses.

As for comparison between SAP Business One and Microsoft Dynamics
Nav - i think they are both equally well supported and solutions
and well future proofed. You may find Dynamics Nav to be more
feature rich and also would offer more customisability to suit
your individual business needs.

>The software as service type is a very good model for small to
> medium businesses.

It can also be a *very bad* model for small to medium businesses.
It's not really the kind of statement that can be categorized
so quickly or easily. Every company has their own situation
and the best thing for most companies is *choice* so they
can pick what's best for them.

>You may find some of the information in this site useful -

It might help before visiting that site to have a bit
of disclosure ahead of time - your site is selling
"online courses on Microsoft Accounting Systems".
With about a half dozen cross links direct to the
Microsoft marketing materials it seems more of an
ad for Navision than anything else.

We are global partners with beas software and SAP on B1. The person that
developed beas now works for us. If you would like detailed info on beas
and its capabilities, I can get you in touch with this person. He is in
Germany and can answer any questions you have on the product. Feel free to
contact me at email@removed and I can pass it along.

SAP is NOT moving away from Business One. If you are getting
feedback that they are, I suspect that feedback is coming from a
competitor. In fact, SAP has a goal of taking their Business
One install base from 13,000 companies (as of the end of 2006)
to 100,000 by 2010.
There is a hosted solution in the works, but it's going to be for
companies on the larger end of the B1 spectrum
As for scalability, B1 can handle 100 users or more, and
businesses doing 3 million to 150 million in gross annual
sales...more if things aren't too complicated.
As for MS dynamics, you're looking at a package based on several
acquisitions (Great Plains, Navision, Axapta), and Microsoft
doesn't know which one they will ultimately standardize on.
Furthermore, Dynamics GP, based on Great Plains, has no
integrated CRM, and is lacking many other features that Business
One has.
Something worth considering is that Microsoft uses SAP to run
Microsoft. What better endorsement could there be? Microsoft
touts the benefits of the larger SAP R/3 at
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/ITSolutio ns/MSIT/crm/mssapr3.mspx?mfr=true
Email me at email@removed if you would like more info, and best
of luck on your software search.

WOW there's a lot of mis-information in your response (or is that
dis-information???). We are both an SAP Business One and Microsoft
Dynamics
partner. SAP has made it very clear to us not to sell B1 to any company
even approaching the 50 user level. B1, out of the box, is for a rather
simple distribution-oriented company. There are many 3rd party add-on
products that take it into manufacturing, projects and service-oriented
companies, and even a variety of specialty distribution companies (e.g.
food). Overall, it is a good solution and the add-ons are generally
good
too.

Microsoft has their favorite product for different markets and segments.
Dynamics AX is their high-end product that has been further developed by
large global business partners for specific markets such as food
processing
and distribution, automobile dealerships, textile and apparel,
automotive
manufacturing and others. Dynamics NAV is a great small to mid-market
solution with many 3rd party add-ons for niche markets such as retail
supply
chain, royalty management, rentals, job shops and many, many others.
Overall, these are good solutions too.

It all boils down to examining, documenting and prioritizing your
business
requirements and matching them against the feature set of the software -
NOTHING IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THIS! Of course, you also have to
consider
the viability of the software publisher (not an issue with these two)
and
that of the partner, and a few other things discussed in great detail on
this forum.

Interestingly enough, I de-installed an Older SAP system in a business we aquired and replaced it with Navision (older version of Dynamix-NAV).

My view is as follows, the SAP system is more sophisticated and copes with larger business's requirements, the Navision product is lower cost, faster to implement, has less functionality and in my view its is a more flexible product.

A good way of assessing which way to go would be the number of users. Our Navision System has 82 users and the SAP system, that was replaced had 300.

If you need more functionality, but like the Dynamix range, Dynamix AX has more functionality specifically in the manufacturing area - hope this helps

My experience with this product is that it will work fine for a
discrete manufacturing operation and probably work fine for a
wholesaling operation needing to purchase and stock materials
and finished products. If you have complex nuances and business
process beyond standard industry accepted functionality, you are
likely not to be satisfied with the product.

Implementation resources are in short supply though so be aware
that even with SAP implementations this is a challenge. There is
a standardised implementation methodology and any implementation
partner you choose should apply and articulate this to you.
DOn't expect implementation to be quick and easy by default just
because it is more of the COTS software.

contact me directly for a industry eval that compares
satisfaction with the Dynamics vs. SAP products.

This is somewhat correct, SAP is moving to a SaaS model, however
don't count on that any time soon, though the new rewrite of SAP
will likely be interesting it will not be for everyone and of
course requires good sustainable interconnectedness of your
system with the hosted services if that's the way you want to
go.

I've not seen any indications that Dynamics is going this way,
yet. Anything is possible in the coming years - the next release
will still be classic and portal is still relatively immature.

A lot to my mind, is going to hinge on the size of the
implementation you have in mind, the budget and the timescales.
Consider the infrastructure also.

Finally consider that SAP is now concentrating a lot more energy
on the SME market and in addition to selling software and
licences, is very passionate about selling services -
implementation and support. Operational Management and hosted
services are simply an extension of this model.

Microsoft is also going after the services and through partners,
the implementation revenue streams but they are further away in
my opinion.

I can't offer an unbiased opinion, but I can tell you SAP is not moving to a SaaS model. They have added a hosted product, but it will not compete with Dynamics GP. SAP is fully devoted to Business One.

Also, to clarify, SAP is not selling services that are related to Business One. In fact, they no longer offer direct support of Business One as an option. Users MUST go through an SAP Channel Partner for implementation and support services.

In my opinion, SaaS is simply a business model that applies to
organisations whose primary product is software (SAP is a
software company). They license the Business One to partners who
will deploy it and run it as they deem fit, or the vendors can
host the software (either themselves or through a service
agency) and licenses user subscriptions to the software, IBM do
this today with SAP as do others as well as SAP.

I agree, SAP will not sell consulting services for Business One,
however only Qualified SAP Business All-in-One Partners will
sell, deploy, and support defined-scope implementations with
consulting services, if there is any question about
implementation scope I feel confident SAP will want to sell
services to determine whether the prospect is actually a good
candidate for Business One.

I believe you misquoted, noone is saying that SAP is moving away from Business One. There will always be customers who will want to own and run their own copy of the software.

What is being said is that SAP is definitely playing in the SaaS space as well, which means more options for companies wanting to run SAP but not carry the operational burden of having to host domestically.

SAP has made a significant investment in the SaaS Business ByDesign operation.

Business ByDesign is being targeted to businesses with 100 employees or more, which means while there is an overlap with Business One, it is mostly at the higher end of the BO spectrum. The majority of companies using BO are smaller than those being targeted for Business ByDesign.
With 18,000 Business One installs worldwide, and plans to take that to 100,000 by 2010, SAP is pouring plenty of effort into marketing Business One, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

John - you've stated now in a couple of discussion threads that SAP has a goal of 100,000 customers on B1 by 2010. I hope that is coming out of misunderstanding of SAP's stated goals and not out of an attempt to mislead readers of this forum.

Regarding the goal:

1 - That's clearly not going to happen. Let's say the product has been around for three years (it's been longer, but the math is easey this way). That means 6,000 customer adds per year. If you take "by 2010" to mean 12/31/2010 they (meaning you and the rest of the B1 channel) need to up the pace to over 27,000 adds per year. It's not going to happen, could not happen, and SAP never said they are aiming for it to happen.

2 - SAP's real stated goal (so stated by CEO Henning Kagermann) was 100,000 customers across all prodcut lines by 2010, with the bulk of new adds coming from Business ByDesign. Since then SAP (specifically board member Leo Apotheker) has retreated from this goal and now termed it "aspirational". Which in German I think roughly translates to "I wish Henning would not have said that". Absent large acquisitions, they're simply not hitting that.

Note: I tried to post a version of this message once before I logged in. It appeared not to go through, but if did I appologize for the duplicate.

I know SAP how it targets the market for the last 15 years. In 1997 they anounced they will give SAP R/3 as off the shelf product and it never happened. And by bringing in the BusinessOne, they do not cannibalize the SAP Core R/3 modules. That's why they are not selling or implementing BusinessOne directly and instead they are selling through their channel partners who are not convinced with SAP strategy. SAP Senoir VP told me this recently. Also, SAP on their own do not touch any customer with less than 1 million in total consulting revenues. Keeping this in mind, getting 100,000 customers by 2010 is uphill task.

The second point is correct. SAP did state a goal of 100,000 total
customers by 2010, and they are working very hard on achieving that
goal.
Whether someone was sorry that was said is not something that I
can comment on without asking that person.

Here's something we can agree on - they are aggressively moving
to cover the ERP market from bottom to top and acquiring customers.
Paul
Paul Sita, Ph.D
516-297-5264 cell

SAP is not moving away from Business One. It is aimed at small to medium sized companies, and offers a baseline integrated system that can be extended and augmented via a SDK and a whole range of third party add-ons.

Business by design is a new on demand product aimed at slightly larger companies, but has limited customizability, but a more robust baseline product.

I think SAP business one should be an obvious choice, since SAP labs has great vision and experience with regards to making any ERP software. Actually by introducing SAP Business one, SAP LABS has steped into the vast and very promising market of Small and Medium businesses sector. Any developed country has more than 70% SMB's flourishing in the economy, and SAP B1 is just looking forward to tap into this POTENTIAL market. Microsoft Navision on the other hand is not built with so much vision for implementing an ERP,some bugs continue with the MS story, however the FRONT END, or the User Screens are awesome, much better than B1, although even B1 has been made using Microsoft .NET framework. Overall SAP B1 gets more OVERALL score than navision for a SMB trying to implement an ERP.

Both are well supported, and your
success will likely be more determined by the quality of the VAR and
their understanding of your needs. So, I suggest you really focus on
the local partners, their customers, and their focus on your niche to
decide.

A few comments about your questions.
1. When you mention scalability - what are your metrics for Users, daily Sales Orders, Line per Order, Purchase Orders, Journal Entries, Web Orders, Pick/Pack/Ship transactions, number of Inventory Items, Customers, Vendors? Let's put some numbers behind the question.
2. Microsoft seems to be more interested in purchasing Yahoo for $14B than delivering a cohesive ERP solution. More than likely and based a "best guess" by Gartner Group, Microsoft will consolidate future ERP releases around Dynamics Ax (Axapta). Great Plains, Navision and Solomon will continue to thrive but not receive the lions share of R&D investments.3. SAP has stated that they will invest heavily in Business One (Client/Server) as well as Business By Design (SSA) since these solutions target two different market segments. My sources tell me that Business One is growing far to rapidly to let die on the vine.
4. Have the vendors show you a roadmap that is supported by top management at each comapny.
Teddy

I agree. My vision is 20-20, which has no bearing on my ability to provide software that
fits a particular business model. I wonder what type of business this customer follows.
A configured to order may not fit SAP's Business One, despite SAP's "Great Vision".
Another point, the software business model (.NET) does not make for "Great Software" for a
company. It is merely a marketing ploy. What makes sense for an organization is whether
the software fits the processes of an organization. I surely wished I knew how the
vendor's "Vision" and technical expertise applies to modeling the business.

I happen to be a partner in the Microsoft Dynamics channel and would
like to provide some perspective on the comments leveled by Teddy.

I am not a big fan of comparing general functionality (SAP B1 vs
Dynamics) over specific industry focus. I have no real experience in
the apparel industry so my option has to stay more general. If I were
you I would focus my attention on who addresses your industry focus
best. I do know that Dynamics has more than one solution for this
industry and I would assume SAP does as well.

There is no question that both SAP and Microsoft are in this for the
long haul. Each have divisions and departments that work on different
projects at any given time. In the case Teddy raises - a division of
Microsoft has been busy working on their web business around the
acquisition of Yahoo. I do not see the relevance in that comment to
your question.

Rest assured that each Microsoft Dynamics product will be around for
many years. Down the road the landscape will change. With that change
so will Dynamics. I assume the same will be true for SAP B1 and related
products. Any good company and product changes as the world changes.
Microsoft has proven to be a leader in changing with or actually
changing the technology.

I chose to represent Microsoft a number of years ago because of the
connection to the infrastructure - particularly Office - and the ease to
develop. There are some great advancements being released around
sharepoint and CRM in the Dynamics world that excites me as a member of
the channel.

From a vertical perspective - In the Microsoft Dynamics channel there
are some great tools available to help you find vertical solutions that
are road tested with Dynamics. I am sure your reseller has exposed you
to those or has been using them to assist you. I am sure SAP has
something similar. If you want some information on those tools feel
free to reach out to me.

So from a batch manufacturing guy talking to an apparel guy - I would
suggest that you base your decision on who addresses your vertical
business line issues the best. Both will function fine to address
basic accounting and distribution functionality and will be around for
quite some time. After that is done I think it comes down to the local
resources and how you envision getting this product installed. After
that I would concern myself with the developer behind the solution. In
this case you have 2 giants - SAP and Microsoft.

Teddy:
Come on now, really. How will showing a 'roadmap' address whether a software package fits
a business need. That might be an interesting avenue to pursue, but show no value to the
customer. Your comment about Microsoft's purchase of Yahoo is interesting and irrelevant
to the question at hand. Is that another attempt to move the discussion in some fruitless
avenue as well?

The Microsoft stable of products all serve a different niche and all are necessary for
some business. Few vendors address a broader spectrum of businesses than the Microsoft,
Infor being one.

I am also interested in understanding your rational for making the comment about Microsoft
R&D investments. Is that based on internal information or speculation?

Mike don't tell me you have been in this business long enough not to had have the answer about a "Today's" requirement be "Oh yeah, we plan on doing that down the road & by the time you start your Implementation it will be available -- please sign the contract here, & here and oh yes here as well"!
As to some of the other points that Teddy (My daughters Pomeranian's name) brought up.
Microsoft, and many other vendors have been pretty good about holding the Strategic direction of their Organizations very close to the vest. MS is also known for buying out the Competition because they've sat on a pile of cash reserves for years, even though the Stockholders have been asking for Dividends.
Also, in case you aren't aware; Mr Gates & Larry Ellison hate each others guts. Back during the hey-day of COMDEX there had to be a special group of people who ensure they would never be in the same physical location at the same time. Now what does that mean? Well perhaps, with Oracle gobbling up the other Teir I ERP providers that MS has decided to keep their focus on the little guys. After all something like 98% of all Fortune 1000 companies have already done their Implementations and they Teir I guys have not to go swiming in the shallow-end of the pool to drum up new customers. Usually this will mean your smaller public sector organizations who are VERY price sensititive, and usually don't have the internal staff knowledge to do an ERP -- hence SasS & ASP (or whatever the heckit is today) being popular. That is why SAP is making an investment in Business One, especially as a SasS, to capture those markets that can't internally support an ERP.
Whew -- that was long winded!
--
Steve -- 757.418.0505

I would like to add to the debate. As to the opportunity in the SMB sector no one disgrees but as to the product well SAP Business ONe has a lot to be achieved. So is the case with all the others I am sure. to find one single solution for all customers is just not possible so the gaps which are filled by partners in the case of SAP Business one is a really good move.

Again its not just SAP which does business here. The PArtner also gets to sell his add-on as well so its a win win situation.

Bu coming to the software as it is its got a long way to go. Take for instance it does not have a business area concept and does not address contracts in Sales as well. I don;t know about the others but even the solutions that have been developed for some segment either are very expensive or they don.t meet the requirements of some others in the same segment. Now that leaves a lot to be desired.

So they have still a long way to go before they become a force. Until then third party software are going to make hay because they are specialised and fulfil a need which these cannot.

I realize that I am comming in on this thread a little late, but I will agree with Russ on all the bases he covered.

One word of advise to members posting questions is please try to be as specific as possible in defining the business your firm is in.

For example, just stating that your firm is in the apparel business is too vague,

State that your firm does bobbing, weaving, slitting, scouring and dying or tufting, or just a dye house, etc. This way the answers you receive back to your questions will be more specific and address the nueiances of your industry like knot tying, laser alignment, stacking depth for pattern cutting, etc.

Guys, all I am saying is if all you have is a boat and you are in New York City and ask a New Yorker how to get to California; he will probably recommend flying or driving on Interstate 80. Neither is the answer you wanted.

Good discussion and no, I don't have any inside information, only a collection of ideas and insights gathered from multiple sources.
My thought behind my roadmap comment was in terms of long term viability. Will the ERP application that fits a need today still be available 5 years from now? There are several ERP Graveyard websites that validate my point. ERP authors need to be bold enough to step up and share their plans. The value to the customer is therefore in the confidence that their ERP investment won't need to be repeated within the near future.
That then leads to the R&D issue. What investments are being made, by Microsoft, Sage, SAP, Infor, Netsuite and others, that are considered strategic to their ERP portfolio? Are those investments providing a benefit to the ERP reseller and customer today?
Netsuite, Infor, SAP and Activant are creating lots of "buzz" with ERP related activity. Microsoft, on the other hand, is creating lot of buzz around the Yahoo deal while shelving the consolidation of their Dynamics suite.
How does this Yahoo deal benefit the Dynamics reseller and customer today? It would be like GM buying an oil company. There's a connection within a few degrees of separation but not much benefit to the car buyer or owner today.
Teddy

I think your posts are a bit off topic but I will spend just a moment
clarifying something from the Microsoft perspective.

It is my belief that this Yahoo connection you are so hung up on is not
directly related to nor does it impact the R&D spend on the Dynamics
products in the near or maybe long term. By making the connection from
the group at Microsoft that handles Ad Center and web products (Yahoo
purchase) to the Business Solutions group (Dynamics) is a bit of a
stretch. It is my understanding that the various groups are not as
interdependent as you may be claiming. Remember Microsoft in total is a
huge company with various and varied product lines.

So to somehow claim that the Yahoo deal is somehow connected directly to
Dynamics R&D spend is a bit foolish in my mind. I do think that if the
deal were to go through indirectly the Dynamics world would benefit down
the road. The exact benefit would take some time to see.

An example of this point - Microsoft has owned what is known as the
Office product space for many years. I think it is fair to say that
they dominate the desktop now and have for a while. Good or bad. A few
years ago Microsoft launched CRM.

It has been a very slow go but it
has really picked up speed in the last couple years. Much of this was
due to getting more traction but also due to the interaction with
Outlook. You can now run CRM from within Outlook and the threads
between the products are getting more mature. This all took some time.
Outlook is now a better product because of a native CRM and vice versa.
The Office and CRM integration is now making its way into the Dynamics
products as well - there is the tie to this thread.

So regarding Yahoo - if the deal were to go through my sense is we would
see a number of positive changes in the future. For me it is way too
early to see what those would be but I am sure there would be positive
impact on the Dynamics products eventually.

Maybe we can get back to the question.

SAP and Microsoft are here to stay - In my opinion focus on the vertical
requirements and the financial/distribution core normally works itself
out.

If you want to buy a car and are interested in let's say a Volvo then what is the relevancy of news coming from the Volvo Trucks division to you as a potential car buyer ?
There is the same no-relevancy between the Dynamics roadmap and R&D and the possibility of Microsoft Corporate buying Yahoo.

Microsoft is not shelving the consolidation of its Dynamics suite but it has changed its approach. With Project Green they were aiming at a 2 to 3 year timeframe to get a large job done. That was probably more marketing fuzz than a sensible plan.
Currently Microsoft is building on a gradual consolidation of its Dynamics suite with a roadmap going up to 2011-2013. The gradual consolidation is aiming at a "smooth" upgrade plan (upgrading is never easy) that gives existing customers the guarantuee that the functionality they have today will still be there tomorrow. In fact the outcome will be that customers will have much more.
As insider information I have seen the next gen of Dynamics NAV and was pretty impressed. It has all the same functionality than in its current version but steps up from a 2-tier to a 3-tier platform.
It introduces a service tier that enables web services almost on the fly, it comes with a new client that will be common among all the Dynamics products in the future that gives much more flexibility to the end-user in customizing its own workspace. Next year Microsoft will release the Sharepoint Display Target to give thin-client access. As the whole new client technology is based on rendering it means that a single design/development object is suited for all UI's.
Microsoft might be a fairly young player in the ERP field but with its acquisitions it has taken on-board a lot of knowledge and experience and combined that with their strength in R&D. They have a very strong roadmap and are in a position to guarantee current and future customers a long-term strategy on ERP.
It will be very hard for other players, even SAP, to keep up with the financial and marketing power of Microsoft.

As a disclaimer; I'm not working for Microsoft, have never worked for them either. I did work untill very recently for a Dynamics partner so I might have some inside information that is not known to the general public but I just don't like a statement like the one on Yahoo to take a thread on an irrelevant course which is of no value to the original poster.

Agreed, but remember Microsoft has developed very little of its product line in-house. Even what is now known as Office started out as a bunch of standalone products that MS purchased, prettied up, remarketed & then finally bundled. If I'm not mistaken, Word was actually a French wordprocessing package, and I know that they bought FoxPro and moved some of its Technologies into SqlServer & Access, while continuing to sell FoxPro at the same time. Now this isn't a complaint, as I think they have one helluva business model.
What I'm really eager to see in "Live" usage is Duet. If it is just half of what they claim it will make the SAP end-users experience oh so much better.
--
Steve -- 757.418.0505

How can they when everything is changing at the speed of light? What was a good idea two years ago is a figment of somebody's distant memory today. Technologies change, CEO's change, requirements change.

While it is good to have a picture of a Road sketched out, I highly recommend against paving it since there is no guarantee it will lead to successes. Sometimes even the biggest & baddest Roiadmap simply gets crumbled up & stuffed in the glove box, never to see the light of day again.
--
Steve -- 757.418.0505

Ronald;
Very good post & nice analogy. Everyone needs to remember that there was a major flurry of M&A activities all across the ERP Marketplace.

From the major Tier One's, right down to the boutique providers for SMB & even some of the custom niche providers this has happened. A lot the ERP vendors have got to being making at least minor course correction for the changes that need to be absorbed into their Flagship products. Microsoft has had a very long history of acquiring a product somebody else didn't market very well and putting the Gates Marketing Machine to work on it. I don't even have the time to begin listing all of the "Not Developed" here products in Microsofts Portfolio.
Also, as I brough up before -- Microsoft is cash flush, it has been for quite some time now. They can pretty much buy what ever they want, and then sic their lawyers on that which they can't. Now just because I said that; don't make me into a MS-Hater. It would be fine by me if we declared MS Products as the de-facto standard & just got done with it so I could worry about other things that aren't standardized & don't work & play well together.
Personally I can't wait to get into a "Live" Duet (ï¿½Project Mendocinoï¿½)production system so I can see what that puppy will do. I'm still forced to "Intergrate" Office & SAP the same old kludgie way. If I was Joe Decision maker where I am now, the decision would have already been made. Oh well -- I currenlty get to do, not tell.
--
Steve -- 757.418.0505

hi, talk to 20 people about this and you will get 20 different answers. B1 is a mile wide, and an inch thick - it demo's Grt if you let the vendor drive the agenda. which Dynamics? AX or NAV are the one's to look at. both have the functionality you require. look for a partner who not only knows the product well, but they also have a few references which they sold, implemented and support themselves. Neither SAP nor Microsoft are moving away from their respective products.

SAP says it has their SaaS model on hold which is the Business By Design
product. However it is still sold by resellers and only reseller supported
at this time, so be careful. They are rethinking it and will bring it back
to the market when they figure out how the SaaS marketing model. SAP
Business One does have scalability issues, it is recommended for small
businesses and we have found it works well around upto about 70 users on the
high side. If you have more users than that then you should start looking
at the SAP product All In One. Dynamics AX is very wide and there are a
lot of partners that have written add-on modules for it, so I think you can
the functionality you are looking for with one but be diligent and make sure
they prove to you each feature you require.

First Off, I am an SAP employee but I do need to correct this post by
ERPANALYST!

SAP's Business ByDesign has NOT been put on hold by SAP! We are actively
marketing and successfully selling it across Europe, US and China! It is
mainly being sold direct, but also through our BP channel with those
partners already engaged in the ByDesign roll-out.

ByDesign is a good fit for Professional Services organisations,
Wholesale/Distribution and some manufacturing companies. SAP UK are
currently providing fixed cost implementations, which sits well alongside
the open cost of £97 per user per month for the use of ByDesign.

Business ByDesign is not for everyone, but then neither is AX, B1 or any
other of the many ERP suites out there, but just be sure of the facts about
each one before making an informed decision about which suite provides the
best for your business, not just now, but maybe 5 or 10 years from now. With
easy deployment and predictable costs SaaS type applications are the way
forward

Toolbox erp-selectSeeing you are in the garment business where core functions involve color/size matrix, collections, seasons, cartons. assortments, and if in manufacturing many more industry specific items, you should be looking at industry specific solutions! with a financial solution or with easy integration to financials of your choice, make sure your core business is taken care of with an industry specific solution!!!! preferable not an add on and not based on local customizations.

Im not familiar with SAP, I have worked only with financals in R3 only for 1,5 years. Now i work with AX and I think it is fitting around you have described. The question I think between AX and NAV is the price for licenses, and the question whether you have in your company an already working support system. I mean if you have somebody or bodies now in your company responsbile supporting, developing your existing system which you want to change to AX, NAV, SAP B1 or paper or pencil :-)
If you have such a staff, and you want to rule, and govern your new system in the future, I recommend AX because its development flexibility comparing to SAP or NAV. If you dont have and dont want to plan such a team after implementing the new thing, I suggest NAV. In both cases you will need strong support, the question is the cost of this in money and time of your employees.
Honestly, I think there are not too many things in major business processes which can not be covered in systems, the question is only the price you have to pay for in money and in time of work.

To choose between AX and NAV, ask at least 3 AX and 3 NAV partners around you. Give them the same business processes to be shown in a demo enviroment for you, and watch the offers coming back.
In business processes building for demo dont focus only on your specialities, give them almost the whole process line of your company from the beginning of planning purchase, and sales, through goods receiving, delivery notes/packing slip handling, invoice checking and posting, customer order management and CRM capabitlites, picking, packing, shipping, invoicing and of course handling failures in all the processes like creating credit notes due to wrong pricing, price management from beginning of price planning, price changing, if you have production than ask from production planning, production workflow handling till production finishing and so, and so, and so... financials, liquidity and AP, AR management :-)
I know this will become a bigger list than this now, but IMHO with this, you can make a good decission.

I strongly believe that MS Dynamics has proved its efficiency and low-cost-of-ownership. I think relying on MS gives any company additional privileges in utilizing many other tools that are very much integrated. However, many SMBs are now seriously considering SaaS as; An alternative IT Delivery-Platform, and I think it is worth while to take a closer look at this issue before making any final decision.
FYI, MS is offering SaaS also but via authorized Service Providers. Please visit:

Microsoft has a standard packaged solution for Apparel Distribution firms within the Dynamics AX Industry Solution banner. This is developed by Porini from Italy and available almost globally at this time.

SAP is not moving away from Business One. And it is not limited to 10
users or less. We have been involved in several successful implementations
up to 50 users. Beyond 50 users, the advice is probably correct to look at
the All in One solution. The direction for Business by Design in not clear
yet, and this is more of a marketing issue. Dynamics includes 4 different
products so you have to be clear about what solution you're talking about.
Avoid over-generalization.

I guess I must have misunderstood about their marketing plan. My
understanding from our conversation was that SAP will support existing
installations and not sell direct but through the partner channel is still
supported. In any case I do apologize for any inconsistent information
posted and stand corrected. Thanks John

I guess I must have misunderstood about their marketing plan. My
understanding from our conversation was that SAP will support existing
installations and not sell direct but through the partner channel is still
supported. In any case I do apologize for any inconsistent information
posted and stand corrected. Thanks John.

Hi Adam
1) SAP is not leaving B1 behind. They continue to link up with more partners to expand the functionality. That said - realize that the strength of B1 then shifts to the stability/strength of the partner. SAP is not going anywhere - partners - who knows.
2) MS Dynamics - what product? - GP, NA or AX. Small, medium, large - then roll out the real functionality that is provided by partners. The more diversified your needs, the more partners you may have to bring to the table.
Good luck
Allan

I agree with Allan you can be sure with the road map of SAP for its product.

You are not sure which product microsoft will retain by end of 2009. Will it be GP NA or AX. and scaling from one of these products to another is very difficult. as the products were aquired by Microsoft not developed. The only thing they have done in this ten years is giving a similar out look look and feel for all its business applications.

Where as for SAP has road map for all its product and scaling from one product to another is very easy.

Dynamics GP has a well defined Road Map and is regularly being upgraded. Moreover it is very powerful in Mfg & Inventory Modules. All of these contribute to a very high loyalty rate and happy customers.
We are MS Gold certified partner and have independent teams in all theDynamics Products. We have also handled a lot of BI development. We offer offshore/onsite development support

I cant offer much advice on this having used neither product, but I have worked in the apparel business and recall the ability to cope with "Style/Colour/Size and Fit" was the most important requirement my users used to throw at me.
Do either of your selected short list items offer anything to make that easier?
Nic

You need special functionality in the fashion/apparel industry - as mentioned elsewhere, colour/size/style is specific to your industry. None of the 'generic' ERP apps have it as standard, but I believe there is an add-on solution for NAV/AX from a European company, Peebletree (?)

Navision has a perfect fit for the apparel industry. Additionally is
under the MS umbrella of ERP suites and has the best business practices
incorporated within the system. We have a successful implementation for
Apparel Mfg/Distribution client. I give below the major areas covered in
this implementation :