Fringe Episode 3.04 Do Shapeshifters Dream of Electric Sheep?

NEWTON WAKES A SLEEPER ON AN ALL-NEW “FRINGE”THURSDAY, OCTOBER 14, ON FOX

Newton, concerned about the consequences of a distressing development involving a high-ranking official, is forced to call to action a sleeping shapeshifter. As Walter and the rest of the team gather evidence, they move the investigation to Massive Dynamic, where Olivia goes on high alert and Walter finds himself in a perilous situation, in the all-new “Do Shapeshifters Dream of Electric Sheep?” episode of FRINGE airing Thursday, Oct. 14 (9:00-10:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (FR 3.04) (TV-14 D, L, S, V)

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Fantastic so far. “Patricia” was written on a building in the last ep. I thought that might come up it looked so deliberate. And did Walter see a “glimmer” on Altivia? Her hair looks like little diamonds in the right light? Drugs allowed Bell, Walter and of course Rebecca Kibner to see the other side (and in Rebecca’s case, people from there). SO interesting!

Nice catch with the Patricia, LMH! I was wondering if Walter was going to say her hair was different too, and clue in! Darn that he blamed it on the drugs. It’s like his mind is trying to tell him too but he’s not listening. Nice link to the drugs with Rebecca, Bell and Walter too seeing into the other side.

Which reminds me: “there’s more than one of everything”. Mark the last word: “éverything”.
Are the AU Watchers the doubles of the Observers ‘over here’?!?
Do even the Observers have alternate personae?

Forget about toying with their relationship (which I’m not for, btw), let’s talk about toying with the audience! So we now know that Peter HAS been noticing something off with Olivia (Altlivia), but jeebus they are really stretching Altlivia’s stay Over Here.

Oh…I will hate the people that make “Fringe”…more specifically J.J. Abrahms (like Sawyer/Kate/Jack — which totally turned me off to lost)…if Peter sleeps with Fauxlivia…if he did that, when I was Olivia and got back to the RIGHT side that she would say to Peter, “I knew something was wrong, and you did too…I’m done with you!”

See, but Sawyer/Kate/Jack was a typical good guy vs. bad boy love triangle. I have to imagine that they could NOT pass up the opportunity to make a love triangle with one guy and two girls who are the SAME PERSON! O_O I am huge on P/O but even I realize that the concept is way too amazing to not toy with…

I don’t have a problem with one person having a relationship with another person, and there being another “version” of that person: By far one of my fav. shows of all time “Farscape” had John (the lead male) getting “cloned” (I mean you couldn’t tell the difference), then they had to split up with Aeryn going with one of the Johns. Of course she threw out her differences and started a sexual relationship with one of the Johns. Then he dies, and Aeryn reunites with the other John, and totally blows him off. On top of all that, she’s pregnant (she could have gotten pregnant — it’s sci-fi and she is an alien).

That was the best season by far!

But this is just ridiculous! Our Olivia and FauxOlivia are NOT the same person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crazylady, I agree with you. I’ve had almost 24 hours to try to deal with what Peter has done, and I have to say I have no respect for him now. He knows something is different, but like he said to AltLiv: “Maybe she (meaning Patricia) did notice, she just made excuses for herself in order to not to have to deal with it. Or she came up with ways to explain it to herself.” My problem with this is, Peter is supposed to be a smart guy, AND he knows that the alt-universe exists – he’s been there – AND he spotted the difference between AltLiv and Olivia almost right away. Peter is lying to himself, and sleeping with AltLIv knowing somewhere deep down she isn’t the same as his Olivia – oh man, Olivia had better walk away from him when she gets back to our side and finds out what he did. NO EXCUSES, Peter! Where is his integrity? He has none. He is willing to ignore his suspicions in order to sleep with AltLiv – so go ahead. I feel so badly for Olivia, who like FinChase and Anita say, has a beautiful image of Peter to hang on to for her sanity. I’m a huge O/P shipper, and right now Peter is going to have to do some amazing wonderful thing to save the world and some serious soul-searching to win back his integrity, before I’ll believe he deserves to be anywhere close to Olivia again.

Then again, Peter has lied to himself ever since he was kidnapped by Walter – he knew Walter wasn’t his dad, and chose to believe Walter’s lies, so he has a serious long history of taking the easy way rather facing the uncomfortable truth. Maybe Peter is still running away from the truth, which is he doesn’t know who he really is, and what he’s meant to do. But Peter, listen: sleeping with AltLiv is not the answer!

AltOlivia didn’t have to sleep with Peter, though. However, she went there anyway. So, I’m not sure how one is not badder than the other. Peter, I have to agree with alot of people on here, I think deep down knows, it’s not the real Olivia, but seems to be in denial about it.

Obviously, there will be repercussions for both parties, that’s what the writers are setting up. However, I’m just not sure what direction they will take with Peter. It will be interesting to see what they do. I agree with the altOlivia angle. It will all fall apart when she goes back to her side.

Peter is an extremely interesting and complex character. However, he is also the one we know and understand the least about. So, I hope the writers do show us this season, the journey that Peter will go through in dealing with this betrayal, his kidnapping and being from the altuniverse and his fate which seems to be strapped to a machine. I think it is long overdue.

I’ve been thinking about this for a while now, and I’ve come to the conclusion that if we’re going to make “Farscape” parallels, a closer analogy might be the Crichton/Grayza situation in Season Four, albeit with a gender change, as in this instance it was Altlivia “taking one for the team.” Crichton certainly viewed that incident as akin to rape, and I think Altlivia may see her situation along the same lines, at least for a while. There was nothing sweet or romantic about the Grayza scene–it was sordid and a bit creepy, and the Peter/Altlivia encounter came off the same way because I believe it was intended to.

I’d certainly think that Olivia and Peter would have trouble picking back up where they would have left off if not for the switch, BUT i doubt that Olivia will be “through” with Peter. Peter could have been through with Walter and Olivia for lying to him about his identity…I mean she saw the glimmer, Walter told her the whole story, and rather than telling Peter the truth about his life, whe concludes that “some Pandora’s Boxes are better left unopened.” In other words, “I don’t want to lose him.” Selfish, but human.

If Peter can forgive Walter and Olivia for lying to him, then Olivia can forgive Peter for sleeping with the spy, eventually. Maybe a very long eventually. But eventually

Isn’t Linc though? Looking so good? And Frank? I feel so sorry for Frank now! I wonder how AltLiv will feel the morning after, since she can barely stand to be in Peter’s presence without having to escape to the bathroom for a breather. How can Peter not pick up on this Olivia not liking his touches? Argh, I am not going to rant again on this!

Lincoln/Olivia babies would be damn cute. (Sorry, think the in November notice was because several shows on Fox are going on hiatus till after the World Series. So, guess we have to wait for our Olivia to return. Hopefully in 3×05.)

LOL! and then what will his face look like? I hope he gets a haunted expression. I hope he suffers big time. I think I’m actually looking forward to seeing how bad he looks when Olivia confronts him. I hope she tells him to run off with AltLiv since that’s who he picked, and AltLiv dumps him……I wonder if AltLiv will ever tell Frank what she did for her mission? Or will this break her? I think it’s really interesting that among the ‘lines’ crossed in this episode, it is almost easier to deal with the Senator’s wife making excuses for her suspicions that he was different – she didn’t know about the alternate universe, after all. It’s not so easy to forgive Peter the line he crossed, to accept that he made the same choice to not question his suspicions. It’s interesting that he has lost his center, his moral being, along the way (if he ever had it), while Olivia, who has lost almost everything, still has hers. As far as we know. It will be interesting to see if being AltLIv (or having her memories) will put Olivia in a position where she has to choose between something AltLiv would do versus what she would do. Then we could really compare her to AltLiv, who is only pretending to be Olivia, and is doing something (sleeping with a man – does she like him? does she hate him? so difficult to read) that compromises her self and her relationship back home but might save her world. Which is the greater line to cross? And do the ends justify the means? So while I hate what Peter has done, I’m also asking what the other characters have done that were lines they crossed, and can’t go back on – Walter has moved into MD and that fabulous new lab!!, bringing back the words on the letter from Bell – do you dare to cross the line? He did…… Astrid no longer grosses out so much on the gross things, and I think her line is she likes working with Walter. I don’t know that she can go back to being an ordinary FBI agent now. Peter has slept with AltLiv, ignoring his suspicions because it’s easier to deal with. I can’t think of a line that Olivia has crossed, unless it was when she decided to not tell Peter the truth about himself, but I always end up thinking that wasn ‘t her truth to tell, that was Walter’s. So I think Olivia still has a line to cross. Maybe when she finds out what her perfect image of Peter really did, she will find that line too.

To be honest, I didn’t like this episode at all. To me, it felt a bit too contrived: from the “sex” chat in the restaurant, to the “you’re not committed to your mission” crap they kept shoving down our throats, and then Peter admitting to dismissing the changes he’d seen in Olivia. The end result was ridiculously predictable from the get-go, and there are so many things wrong with taking it to that level, I don’t even know where to begin.

I did like learning that shape-shifters can grow attached, but again, it wasn’t enough to save the episode for me (especially when they accomplished the same thing in August with the observers, but did a much better job of it). And I’m getting kind of tired of the same-old-same old; aka, must retrieve data from dead guy.

All in all, a very disappointing episode… hopefully the next one manages to deliver.

I’m with you. It was like the writers said “ok, on the second episode over here, they’ll sleep together” and then wrote a script around it. It was very predictable and badly written. But i should have known, because David Wilcox wrote 3 of my bottom five Fringe episode ever.

I thought the premise of Fauxlivia identity being threaten by the shapeshifter database recovery was cool, i liked how she was trying to avoid getting caught. I seriously thought right until the end that she would fail and that it would have been the cliffhanger. It would have been so much cooler than what we got.

Unfortunately, seeing the threat to Altlivia didn’t hold the same kind of tension for me…

Not only was it too soon for her to get caught, but it would’ve made Newton’s accusations, and her own self-doubts, completely moot: They couldn’t have her mission be revealed AND have her struggling to remain “on task”. And since I knew they hadn’t thrown the sex-chat in the beginning for nothing – it was fairly obvious to me that the entire episode was leading up to Peter’s seduction, and not Altlivia’s capture. (Though I would have gladly welcomed the latter.)

But I completely agree: it really is like this entire episode was centered around getting them in bed together. I wouldn’t have minded so much if it had come about naturally – but I HATE the way they handled it.

OMG! NO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! NO! NO!
The last scene just killed me inside in the end, not only did they off Newton, but they made Peter and Alt ‘Livia “Potentially” seal the deal. The Fringe dynamics will never be the same again when Olivia comes back. It was a great episode though, now we have to wait a whole month to see what happens next.

P.S. Peter is starting to piss me off, the writers are really destroying his integrity, Peter tells Alt-livia he is noticing the differences, and yet to him, its change is good, making Peter blind has stretched far enough, November 4th, the truth needs to be reveal. So far episodes taken place OVER THERE has certainly been more interesting, this episode was still great but somethings missing, Not sure what it is, a certain spark or a dynamic is out of balance.

I’m not sure what to say. I don’t think I’ve ever felt this torn about an episode before. The good parts were some of the best yet. But the bad parts really keep me from feeling fulfilled by this episode.

On the one hand, it was incredible, and there was so much about it that I loved. I thought they did an amazing job at depicting and exploring the shapeshifters. There is so much to analyze regarding Newton and the shapeshifters and the idea of forming that emotional bond with those you interact with. That scene with the shapeshifter (Roy? Ray? I forget) was far more emotional than I would have expected it could be.

I loved how this episode revisited several concepts that had been introduced before, such as Walternate calling those on our side “monsters” and the shapeshifter telling his “son” about how not all monsters are that bad, and they can even become your dearest friends. That whole scene was overflowing with meaning and significance, and I loved it.

I also really liked all the scenes with Newton, particularly how he was warning alternate Olivia against becoming attached and how he could see her beginning to develop that attachment for our side. Those were well written and well played by both actors.

I also really enjoyed the double meaning to a lot going on and how what they were talking about could be applied to the current situation. Like all the talk about how Patricia had been unaware for two years that her husband wasn’t actually her husband, and how she should have known, and how that ties in with the situation with alternate Olivia right now. I was glad they addressed that and, even though I’m still not happy with it, it made more sense to me. I felt like they brought up a lot of things we’ve discussed here and it left a lot to consider.

However, there were also aspects of this episode that really were not at all acceptable to me. I didn’t like that Newton killed the shapeshifter… that was sad. I wanted him to be able to find a way to stay with his family.

I didn’t like how Peter all but admitted that he has suspicions regarding alternate Olivia, but then just brushed them aside — it made all that he said feel rather hollow. I was 100% against the development in the Peter/alternate Olivia relationship. It feels unnatural because there really isn’t anything between them. Their whole relationship is based on a lie. Neither one of them seems truly happy or in love with the other. They are inconsistent: one minute they’re all romantic and kissing, and the next scene it’s like they couldn’t be more distant as alternate Olivia is trying to work behind his back. There’s no substance to their relationship, so the whole physical aspect of it feels forced to me. Especially if Peter senses something is wrong.

Similarly, I don’t think alternate Olivia is doing a good enough job at being convincing in her role as our Olivia. I’ll give her credit for appearing to be pursuing Newton and shooting at him. But even then, it all seems rather halfhearted compared to the way Olivia typically pursues Newton. In every episode involving Newton, it’s been clear how she considers it her personal responsibility to stop him, and she is willing to do whatever it takes. Alternate Olivia didn’t have that. It just seems that there are so many things she’s doing or not doing that should be sending off red flags, but no one is picking up on that. And while I understand the whole idea of being in denial over those nagging suspicions, I still feel like that excuse can only go so far before it loses credibility.

Looking beyond the alternate Olivia story, I was also a bit irritated by the Peter/Walter relationship. It seems too comfortable and casual. I really had expected more tension between the two of them in the aftermath of last season. While they’re not to the same level they had achieved prior to Peter learning the truth, things still seem too smooth and harmonious between them. I expected there to be more distance between them. It seems rather unbelievable that they are interacting together so well.

And then there’s Newton. I thought it was a rather fitting way to handle the character. And yet, something about it bugs me. However, I am of the opinion that we haven’t seen the last of Newton. I believe that whatever he did to kill himself, it’s only temporary, much like freezing his head for a few years. I wouldn’t be surprised if they manage to reanimate him in the future.

It was a good episode, but I say that while also holding several reservations about the episode, which prevent me from dishing out the praise as I’ve done for the Over There episodes. And it doesn’t help any that we have to wait until Nov 4 for new episodes.

I felt the same about the whole Olivia/Peter thing, and this episode was really the first time I felt Peter should know better. He knows something is off with Olivia, but he’s deliberately deciding to ignore it. That bothered me. Maybe it comes down to not wanting to be fooled again, but it made me want to smack him. However, it didn’t bother me as much as expecting more of the Altnate Olivia in convincing Peter (and everyone else) that she was who she says she is. I understand that Newton’s warnings were meant to drive her actions, and maybe I’m used to seeing our Olivia being more in control and convincing in a tough situation, but I just expected more smarts….a little more finesse in Altlivia handling her assignment. She practically had red flags popping out of her head throughout the episode to indicate she’s an imposter. I don’t know. I’m more disappointed in that aspect of the narrative than Peter and Altlivia copulating. Something you had to figure was going to happen for dramatic payoff later.

As far as Walter and Peter…I don’t know, I think that part is believable. At the end of S2, we sensed there was a reluctance yet a want to reconcile. We’ve seen that so far this season, too. They…well, Peter has agreed to continue to work with Walter, and there has to be some level of acceptance (not sure that’s the correct word to use) in doing so. They do know how the other works based on the past two years, but there is a noticable distance that’s appropriate for where they are emotionally.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I felt tense throughout this entire episode. I didn’t expect to be so torn about shapeshifters in realizing that some of them have settled in to lives they enjoyed and wanted to keep. Roy or Ray telling his son about monsters can end up being your best friend was really touching. Kind of sucked that Newton killed him. However, I screamed at the tv when he pushed my Walter into that wall. Nothing good ever comes from Walter being left alone for even two seconds. Wish it didn’t keep happening on Astrid’s watch.

Speaking of Walter, I missed higher than a giraffe’s va-jay jay, Walter. He was hilarious. And I honestly thought I’d find it weird he wasn’t working in his own lab, but I have to say, ‘MD’ looks good on Walter so far.

Maybe it’s just me, but does the ‘Over Here’ story seem…rushed? I don’t know, it just feels like there should have been an extra episode or couple of scenes to let this part of the story breath a bit more. The tension between Newton and Altlivia could have played out a little longer to give it a little more depth. Also, a few scenes dedicated to seeing Altlivia trying to shift into Olivia’s life in order to see a softer side of her character. If we’re meant to sympathize or come to understand her character as we’ve come to understand our Olivia, then that’s going to require more than just seeing her trying to seduce Peter or clashing with Newton. Unless we’re not meant to like or care about her, and I don’t believe that’s the writers intent. But that’s just a guess.

All in all, I really enjoyed this episode, and can’t wait to re-watch.

Agree with what you have to say in re: the Walter/Peter relationship, which strikes me as being far too much on an even keel considering what both characters have gone through. That was really the only thing that bothered me about the ep, which I otherwise thought was fabulous.

Unlike many here, I don’t think that Peter decided completely to disregard his suspicions of Altlivia. I’d have to watch the scene in question again, but weren’t they interrupted mid-conversation? Really, I got the sense throughout the entire ep that Peter was testing Alt Liv, from the opening scene when they were trying to guess the professions of the restaurant patrons, up through the chase with Newton. This universe seems to be working pretty more or less in tandem with the AU regarding suspicions–last week we had Charlie doubting Olivia, now we have Peter doubting Alt-Liv, and both men seemingly having their suspicions allayed…maybe. (And I agree that Alt-Liv’s attitude to Newton was a huge red flag in and of itself, as we know our Liv has what amounts to a personal vendetta against the shapeshifter, and would likely have pursued him with far more passion.)

And while we’re on the subject of Alt-Liv, I’m intrigued by the lack of compassion for her on this board. While I can’t quite bring myself to like her, I do have some sympathy for her situation. She’s been basically forced to whore herself out for The Cause (reluctantly, lest anyone think otherwise, as established by the brief scene alone in the bathroom whern she had to psych herself up to continue with her date; and she only managed to consummate her relationship with Peter at the end after being continually taunted and goaded into doing so by Newton, and convinced by him that failure was imminent.) When she goes back to her own universe, willl she be able to resume things again with Frank as if nothing happened, or will that relationship deteriorate? If she really is the same person as our Olivia, I susect her personal life may rapidly fall apart. In fact, she may well end up just as damaged as our Liv is. And if neither she nor Peter technically consented to sex, isn’t that rape? And of whom? Some disturbing issues raised here.

Am I the only one to think Newton’s suicide was ill-judged? It has practically guaranteed that Walter will do an autopsy and remove HIS memory chip as well as the one he swallowed; unless the thing has some kind of auto-destruct in place, his information will now be available to the Fringe team. I tend to agree with mlj that we likely haven’t seen the last of him.

Theories on why the “sleeper” shapeshifters were able to survive for years in the same body, while shifter/Charlie started to fall apart after a week or so? I queried my boyfriend about this while we were watching, and his reply was, “Because his machine was broken.” This is one possibility; another is that there are different “grades” of shapeshifters depending on what tasks they are needed to perform. I hope it isn’t just a huge continuity error that would basically negate much of Season Two.

Anyway, fabulous episode. I give this one my highest rating of the season so far.

“This is one possibility; another is that there are different “grades” of shapeshifters depending on what tasks they are needed to perform.”

I am actually wondering if this plays into why the “sleepers” were able to develop such strong emotions for the people in their lives. I mean, if you are going into deep cover and don’t want to be found out – then you have to act as ‘human’ as possible. Perhaps, emotional learning and adaptability was designed into them – more so than, say into Newton – who cannot understand the emotional connection that the sleeper-shifter has for ‘his’ family. They are each designed for the missions they are to undertake.
As a plot point, this may mean that we have potentially sympathetic shifters out there…

I agree with your idea of shapeshifter grades. Newton being the highest grade that we have come across. Perhaps an explanation for his lack of emotion. Or perhaps he is as capable of it as the next shapeshifter but has never been placed in a position to bring it on. His cover, we should remember, was as a disembodied, frozen head as opposed to a suburban husband and father.

“Unlike many here, I don’t think that Peter decided completely to disregard his suspicions of Altlivia.”

It was when he decided to sleep with her at the end, despite his misgivings, that he disregarded his suspicions. I was glad too that the writers finally let him express his suspicions! And I thought the conversation ended abruptly too, and was unfinished. But when AltLiv says she doesn’t want to talk any more, at the end, and he goes into her arms, the conversation is over. I did wonder too during the conversation if he was testing her, to see how she would react, and I think if the conversation had gone on any longer, she would have said something that he finally couldn’t ignore.

I don’t hate AltLiv, though it’s only with Newton’s final words to her and the writers showing us that she can barely stand to get through the date with Peter, that I finally have some sympathy for her. I still don’t like what she did, and I’m with you, I think she will fall apart once she’s back in her world and has to face Frank. She is, in a way, only doing a job, so I reserve most of my anxiety about their sleeping together for Peter!

Another fantastic episode and possibly my favorite yet this season. This was the equivalent of “August” for the shapeshifters and I’m a sucker for “machines can also have feelings” storylines. I expected something totally different from Van Horn, so I was pleasantly surprised at how likable he was. His wife blaming herself for not noticing and saying that he would have noticed was heartbreaking, but that’s just the usual self-beating, when something awful happens. Would have he known? She doesn’t really know that, but it’s human nature to blame oneself like this.

The other shapeshifter was even more heartbreaking and I liked him a lot, even if he hurt my Walter *gives him the side-eye*. That scene with his son was very effective. You love, what you know. He got to know that woman and that kid, he loved them and he didn’t want to lose them. Newton was very aware of the dangers and he kept himself above human emotions most of the time, a soldier to the end.

Obviously Peter knows subconsciously, as Newton said, that this is not his Olivia, but after this episode, he might also know it consciously. My suspicion is that, he thinks she could be a shapeshifter and he’s going with the flow to spy on her. It’s possible that he’s still clueless, but they know the shapeshifters have infiltrated their society, so suspecting her a little, at least, would be in order. As much as I disliked that the writers went there with Peter and Altlivia, I admit they are doing a great job with this storyline. I have no idea if Peter knows or not and I’m loving it. One of the things I like about Peter is his duplicitous side, something we’ve hardly seen in the show, so watching him and not being sure, what he’s about right now, is very entertaining to me.

I loved how Walter immediately started playing with his new toys, but I missed his old lab so much! I know it wouldn’t have been believable if he had passed the opportunity to use all that technology at MD, but I hope they don’t leave the old lab for too long.

“My suspicion is that, he thinks she could be a shapeshifter and he’s going with the flow to spy on her.”

I have also wondered if he is doing this. Is Peter capable of it? I have a small hope that he is, that he is staying close to AltLIv in the hopes of discovering why she came over (for what) and where Olivia is. That would be the only thing that would excuse him jumping into bed with AltLiv with all the suspicions he has, for me. Otherwise, everything I wrote in other comments stands! lol I sometimes wonder what Peter believes in, really. He is being too nice to his father- and if we allow that he is ‘in love’ with AltLiv right now, then that happiness glow would extend to forgiving Walter somewhat at this time. Otherwise, other than the prev episode over here where he has said he is not ready to talk to Walter about the kidnapping, Peter has been continuing as if nothing happened. And that has surprised me. Do they have long silences between them? Like not seeing AltLiv see our world and the surprise, thoughtfulness, and shock about how good a shape our universe is in, we aren’t being brought into the lives of the Bishops like we were last season, nor of what AltLiv is really thinking. I’m really glad that the writers had Peter talk about his suspicions. But from the words he says, and comparing himself to Patricia, I’m guessing that he has gone that way – ignoring his suspicions because it’s easier than dealing with the fact the wrong Olivia came back with them. I hope he has more character than that, though I also think it leaves room for Peter to grow up once he realizes what his choices have led him to. He has betrayed Olivia, whether he consciously knows it or not, and this is a worse betrayal for me than Olivia not telling him the truth about him (I always think of it as Walter’s truth to tell, anyway). How will he cope? I can and do hope we get to see him have restless nights as he copes with understanding what he chose….but that’s far in the future. Right now, I’m fascinated by how grey everyone is – there are no clear-cut heroes here, except for a very few – Olivia, Charlienate (and Charlie), Frank, and possibly LInc. Even Eliznate and Elizabeth are guilty of crossing a line that took its toll on both of them. Despite my shock as a P/O shipper, I think this is a much richer vein they have gone into, if this is where this storyline is heading. Time will tell!

The good thing is that, they’ve set up the story in such a way, that it would be believably either if Peter knows or if he doesn’t know. Personally, I don’t have much trouble with the sex scene, because it wasn’t about two people in love, it was about deception. It was meant to be a terrible thing to witness and the way they alternated between Peter/Altlivia and Newton’s suicide made this even more jarring.

The level of Peter’s betrayal would depend on a few things: What does he exactly know? How is he acting based on that knowledge?

If he knows this is Altlivia and he’s having fun with her, I agree that he would have a lot to atone for. This doesn’t mean I’d like his character any less, but it would be reasonable within the show to make him pay for it.

If he doesn’t know, in spite of acknowledging the differences, because there is something stopping him from making the logical leap, be it blinding love or fear of losing her, I can’t say it’s betrayal towards Olivia. It would be more betrayal against himself than anything else. If he’s subconsciously holding on to the only person he can trust, that’s understandable. It’s the same as Olivia making the choice to let Altlivia’s memories to take over, because Altlivia’s life was easier or happier (Anna Torv admitted this in an interview). Was it a betrayal that she chose to forget her loved ones? I don’t think so. Holding on to her own self would have made things difficult for her and choosing the path of least resistance was understandable.

As for the comparison between Olivia’s betrayal and Peter’s (I’d only consider it a betrayal if he knows the truth), just because one involves sex doesn’t make it worse. Olivia made a conscious decision to keep the truth from her friend. I don’t agree that the truth was for Walter to tell, because, as we saw, he just couldn’t bring himself to do it. She was willing to keep Peter in a world, that wasn’t his, just like Walter. Don’t get me wrong, I liked it, that she lied to him. If nobody did anything questionable, this wouldn’t be Fringe.

Now, if Peter knows this is not his Olivia, that Olivia is trapped in the red universe and that he’s sleeping with Altlivia, while Olivia is in danger, that would be beyond horrible and I’d root for Olivia to shoot him dead.

IMO, I think they are going to put the Olivia/Peter ship on hold for a long time, but not destroy it completely by making Peter a villain, so it’s possible, that Olivia and Peter will be hurt, because he didn’t realize the truth.

I love what you write, because your thoughts on things are the same as me.

I think he doesn’t know, and like the story in this episode he will be Mrs Van Horn. However, what annoys me is that again the writers have changed Peter to fit into the story they are wanting to tell. Previously we have been told that Peter knows Olivia, he reads people etc, but the writers have thrown that out the window, to justify the position they want Peter to be in when Olivia returns. Again, there’s that non-consistency with Peter’s character.

Also, agree that when Olivia comes back this will push them further apart than ever, and if they ever come back together, I don’t see it happening now until right at the end of the show.

I don’t feel like they’ve changed Peter at all. In fact, he’s the only one, who has actively noticed and mentioned, how different she is, as it fits the character. Walter is also noticing things, but not at the same level.

Remember that real is a matter of perception. What works for Olivia (her hallucination of Peter) worked for the shapeshifters’ wives and it works for Peter.

Also, if you think, that they’re changing Peter to fit the story, the same could be said about Walter and Broyles. However, I think we are prejudging the characters and the plot far too soon. It’s still being developed and we don’t know yet if she’s playing them or if they are playing her. When this story arc is over, then we’ll be able to judge if the writers failed or not. I intend to enjoy the ride and the uncertainty.

I never really cared if they were together or not, until the S2 finale sold me on Peter and Olivia as a couple. So maybe TPTB did a better job of setting up this situation than I realized. I rewatched S1’s “The Same Old Story” this week – second episode of the first season – and they dropped in a bit about the first victim’s stage name being “Amber” and her middle name “Daisy”!

ohhhh maaan….
As much as I love my computer and can’t live without it, I was hoping it would lit on fire by the end of the episode…
The two sleeping together frustrates me. Overall good episode and that’s why the 3 week waiting is gonna be killing me

Awesome episode!! Guys, don’t say peter is stupid because he noted some differences and maybe he knows that she isn’t his olivia, but you know that when you are in love you don’t want to admit that there’s something wrong! The story of the Senator and his wife is an example! Peter will find out the truth

Yes, the old saying that “love is blind” is true. Ask any person whose spouse cheated on him/her. I promise that signs were there…but we humans tend to push under that proverbial carpet thoughts and feelings that are too painful or too uncomfortable pretty easily. “It’s just my imagination.” or “I hope that fear/thought is not true,” – until reality smacks the one in denial upside the head. Peter has that smack coming in November according to the previews.

Throw in the mix that Bolivia just offered sex to a guy in his early thirties who (apparently anyway) has been celebate for two years. 190 IQ immediately faded to black screen.

That’s what I’m saying-unless Peter had somthing with Olivia’s sister last season (remember those, what, two episodes?), when a lady as fine looking as Olivia throws herself at you, if your a heterosexual man (or a lesbian female, for that matter)-are you gonna say no? Didn’t think so. It’s like Chris Rock says, ” Women, it’s easy for y’all to turn down sex-you’ve been offered sex every day since you were sixteen. Any time a man does something nice for you, it comes with an offer for sex. When a man gets offered sex, he’s thinking, ‘Damn, it must be my lucky day!'”

What a great episode. The greatly dreaded AltLivia/Peter hookup came across as rather sad and sordid, instead of the huge betrayal I feared it would be. Altlivia was basically trying to somehow show up Newton – “see, I can cross that ethical line and do my job!” – and it was a bit pathetic.

Given Peter’s remarks about the Senator and his wife, I think on some level he knows what’s going on, but can’t (like Mrs. Van Horn) admit that, like her, he can’t see what’s in front of his eyes. But seeing how the cop shapeshifter became protective of “his” family, did the late Senator also develop real feelings for his wife and grandchildren? Surprisingly, everyone we’ve seen from Over There (Walternate, AltLivia, and Newton excepted) has been portrayed “without prejudice” as TPTB claimed they would be.

Now AltLivia can add killing off my second favorite baddie (after Mr. Jones) to her list of crimes. Grrrrrr

Me too, I agreed in comments elsewhere here. Although I think he doesn’t want to admit it to himself because it’s easier to come up with excuses for AltLiv’s change in behaviour. I have to admit though, I was looking at AltLiv’s raccoon eyes (with the dark eyeliner) and thinking, “No way would Olivia wear that!! Ever!!!” How come Astrid hasn’t picked up on these changes in Olivia?

There may be some parts of the story line that many (including myself) don’t like, but you have to admit that was a fantastic story! I was on the edge of my seat the entire time and the whole thing went so fast. When a show ends and you just want it to keep going and going, you know you’re watching a good show!

I think Walter is suspecting something about Altlivia with his comment about her hair. Peter definitely knows something is up. We find out that Newton didn’t really know what Altlivia’s mission is. Shapeshifters can form emotional bonds but apparently Newton considers himself above all that since he’s been here for 18 years and can still pop people off without any remorse or second thoughts. And was it just me, or did he have a huge grin on his face in his last moments? I took it as him feeling like he “won” over Altlivia. And how couldn’t Peter notice that she was wearing a white bra?? Olivia never does that, and he’s seen plenty of her in her bra and panties.

I’ll have to watch it again before I comment on it more but just wanted to say that I thought it was a very engaging episode. Loved every minute of watching it.

He KNOWS it’s not his Olivia. He’s intimidating her by teasing that information to AltLivia, forcing her hand to raise the stakes of her deception, the risk of which is that she’ll either: a) develop the slightest emotional connection to Peter through physical contact and her loyalty will be compromised at some point or b) she’ll diminish her own confidence in herself by compromising her self-respect. I think Altlivia will LOATHE herself for sleeping with the enemy. I mean, how demeaning is that act?!

My next question is: since Peter knows it’s not his Olivia who came back to this world, when will he believe the switch took place? Will he think the alt-world kiss was Altlivia trying to get herself over to our side?

I think Peter will have some doubts about his own judgment over there, but I think for now, he’s totally clear on his mission: destabilize Altlivia in this world by whatever means necessary.

Given what we saw in this episode, Peter (if he does know this isn’t Olivia) might well be wondering if she’s a shapeshifter and not necessarily Alt-Livia.

One thing he MUST know is that this version is a lot less professional than Olivia. She’s become the Debbie Downer of Fringe Division: no let’s not question Van Horn’s wife; no, it’s a bad idea, what if the media gets a whiff?; shapeshifters are good at what they do, how could we possibly find any evidence in his office?; no, I couldn’t catch up with the shapeshifter at MD (this from the tenacious FBI chick who chased Stieg through buildings and jumped across roof tops and hurled herself Jason Bourne-style onto a fire escape in the pilot);

Peter ought to notice that this version of Olivia isn’t much good at her job and probably should suggest she take a leave of absence until she gets her head back in the game. Or, he could just shag the daylights out of her and hope for the same result.

“She’s become the Debbie Downer of Fringe Division: no let’s not question Van Horn’s wife; no, it’s a bad idea, what if the media gets a whiff?; shapeshifters are good at what they do, how could we possibly find any evidence in his office?; no, I couldn’t catch up with the shapeshifter at MD…”

I know! The comment about the media?? As if Ourlivia has ever given that a thought!

But, if Peter REALLY knew – where is the anger? He can be a pretty angry guy, and if he thought that she was a shape-shifter? Well, the people who are copied by Shape-shifters have never survived it, so unless he thinks that it was Altlivia who was ‘copied’ than he he’d have to think that “his” Olivia was dead. Either way that would bring his thoughts to AU Olivia. in theory I can understand bidding his time – but, to give nothing away? If nothing else, then to take her at her word that she didn’t find the information on Newton, to not manage to be Right there next to her to make sure?

(This is my first time on this site — I’m so excited to find it!)
I just had to jump in and say that I totally agree with this take, fedorafadares. Peter has a history of swindling and conning people. From the looks of things, he was taking on more dangerous baddies than Fauxlivia before he joined Fringe. Coupled with the fact that he does read people, and especially Olivia well, I think that he is well on to Fauxlivia and her deception. Ruthlessness is necessary when you are in the midst of a con (maybe he got that quality from his dad?), so I can see the reason for sleeping with her in order to keep her in the dark. I can’t see the necessity though. He could have begged off in a number of ways I think… so I agree that he will likely have problems with his decision later on.
Also, I am really going to miss Newton. Such a good baddie. And the way that Fauxlivia spoke to him and treated him throughout the episodes just gave me one more reason to dislike her. Girl has no respect. But I guess he got his — his goading pushed her into doing something that is going to bring her a world more of trouble, I’m thinking. Excellent episode.

One other thing, I did feel bad for Altlivia when she was walking away from Newton’s cell (can’t believe he’s gone) and when she was leaving the restaurant with Peter. She’s torn, and she’s way over her head in this assignment, and she knows it. She’s not going to be able to keep her objectivity, especially now that she sleeps with Peter to convince herself she can pull this off without being compromised. That, I find is rather juicy.

You know what was the most awesome thing about this awesome episode? The last scene when Newton dies and parallel to his suicide Alivia finally falls into the hole. I think you understand that she’s not only betraying her boyfriend but she’s betraying herself. And the music theme in this scene was absolutely amazing – very dramatic and powerful. Newton was great. The smile that appeared on his lips the last second before his death was truly horrifying but also truly terrific. I gotta say the whole scene was probably one of the most powerful scenes on Fringe ever. Great.

This’s just amazing that each next episode is better than the previous one))

And guys more Nina please! That scene with her and Peter in the corridor was a mockery! But the moment when they come into the Walter’s “lecture hall” was worth my frustration about the previous one)

The third moment that I loved so much was that Walter chose MD’s lab))) I like that he starts to use his privileges. Honestly his Harvard’s lab was cool but they used it too much often. New location of Walter’s hous of horrors is great)

I’m totally frustrated because of the month interval. I hate baseball!

I’ve never felt sorry for Bolivia before last night, and consequently I like her more. Her character always seemed so go-get-em, aggressive, in-your-face – characteristics I’m not too fond of in real people. However, seeing her struggle with her role as spy… and I think a lot of it is fear (she’s not Olivia who has trained herself not to be scared)… has really made me warm to her. Big kudos to Anna Trov, her playing Bolivia as freaked out and alone certainly made me rethink the role that Bolivia has to play. The idea of infiltrating the enemy is terrifying, and she must know that the deeper she goes the more dangerous it becomes and the more awful will the repercussions be if she is caught.

Seducing Peter would be extremely unpleasant. After getting a glimpse of her life with Frank last week, it was heartbreaking to see her alone in the bathroom at the restaurant and in the moments before she opened the door. As for Peter, I understand him a bit better now. At least he admitted that he had recognized the differences. But I mean what can you do really? He had no reason to think there had been a switch (he didn’t know that Bell had been knocked out and that there had been an opportunity for a switch). What can he say to his new girlfriend? “Honey you’ve been acting happy and more patient lately. Would you mind if I lock you up and force-feed you whiskey while I look for tattoos?” Also Bolivia had smartly cut him off at the pass, bringing up differences a few episodes back.

What has the potential to be the most interesting is the idea of pretending your way into love. As the basis of behavioral therapy it’s a powerful idea, highlighted by the shapeshifters this episode and possibly foreshadowing Bolivia developing feelings for Peter? I’m not happy about the idea but Fringe has been leaving the breadcrumbs (now she is all alone without Newton, no one to turn to, and pretending to be in love with someone who is devoted to you – even if it’s not really you. Any port in a storm, eh?) and if they are going to do it so smartly and subtly I will have no choice but to follow them down the rabbit hole.

Some very interesting points here–I think you made them far better than I did a few posts back. You seem to be suggesting that Altlivia could develop something akin to Stockholm Syndrome in regard to her enforced intimacy with Peter, which I find quite fascinating.

I agree. I have a strong feeling, especially with everything that happened between Peter and Altlivia this episode and just so far this season, that the part about “pretending yourself into love” was definitely meant to be pointed at the Peter/Altlivia situation. I think that’s where TPTB are going to try and go with this.

I don’t think it is going to be the sex that makes the difference but the lack of support she will be suffering from. Peter has always been Olivia’s support system, looking out for her, bolstering her in those very few moments of weakness and since he doesn’t know that Olivia is Bolivia, he will probably treat her just the same. In a situation so strange (and what was brought home to me this episode – terrifying) that support, however inaccurate or misdirected, would be extremely appealing. It is hard not to care for someone who cares for you so deeply. Even if she doesn’t respond with love, per se, I think she would have to be very cold indeed (and I don’t think she is) not to respond to such emotion – especially when she is meant to be pretending to respond.

Very good point. And yea I don’t think the sex is going to be the make or break it but it’s just going to be more of a constant situation of closeness between the two. I mean they seemed to get along well enough in their first meeting last season in the finale and she knows Peter isn’t a bad guy so while I agree she may not fall in love with him necessarily I think she will wind up caring for him in the end. If they made the point that shapeshifters (who aren’t even entirely human) can gain emotions in that kind of situation, I have a hard time believing Altlivia wouldn’t wind up with some feelings for Peter.

I also think that the support thing is going to become huge because 1) With Newton now gone she’s not going to have anyone there constantly pushing her to do what’s absolutely necessary for her missions and 2) I think his pushing her to “cross the line” with Peter will actually backfire and create more of an attachment for her to him. It’s very likely that things are going to start to fall apart for her now and Peter will be the person she has to lean on.

Has anyone noticed that not once this season has he asked AltLiv if she is ok? He asked that question of Olivia for most of the past two seasons, though not so much after he discovered she lied to him. Wouldn’t he ask her if she was afraid, discovering the shapeshifters were here and so high up in the government? I wonder, if now they are so intimate, if he will have the same connection to AltLiv – to be able to sense her moods, after? Does he know he can’t read this version of Olivia? Because I get the sense of them not being a couple at all. What if Peter has been pulling the biggest con of all, that he’s known from the beginning that it’s not Olivia that came back with them? I’m going to have to go back and watch these two episodes for more clues! lol I guess Fringe has done it’s job, since it is realistic that Peter could be fooling himself, OR he could be fooling AltLiv.

I think there are commonsense questions that should be addressed Over Here. To your point: “hey Olivia, are you okay? How are you adjusting after having a throwdown with you alternate self?”, ect… I don’t need an entire episode dedicated to the reveal of Altlivia Over Here, but my patience has worn thin. Over There everyone is concerned with Olivia/Altlivia, and if she is okay and ready to be back at work. However, Over Here, no one is shown tending to Olivia (Altlivia). No one is making sure she is okay after jumping universes, hooking her up to a few machines, a cortexiphan drip…

It is just kind of like we (the audience) are just expected to go along with the storyline Over Here. Someone else commented on the stories Over Here feeling rushed. Yeah, I don’t know if it is rushed so much as not as fleshed out as Over There stories.

You know I never necessarily saw the ‘attachment’ to this side that Newton kept implying. I mean any confused looks/smiles she may give don’t nec indicate ambivalence – simply that she is trying to feel her way around in this place. In that sense his criticisms and his warnings seemed a bit condescending or ‘forced’ – as in for the benefit of the audience more so than for her. To talk Us into believing it.

But, you have an interesting point. “Pretending your way into love”. It sort of opens the door for me a little to see this ‘attachment’ as more likely or natural or something, perhaps more ‘acceptable’ in a way. It has more resonance for me that Newton’s chiding from ‘The Box’. Also, for all the valid comparisons to August made – He never ‘pretended’ his way into loving that girl – the mechanisms were entirely different, imo, which makes the call-back inherent in the situation secondary to the possible foreshadowing.

I’m not sure Newton was talking about an attachment to the our side so much as emotion in general as a weakness. You saw it in his interactions with the shapeshifter, and we saw it in his comments to our Olivia back in Grey Matters Newton:”Now I know how weak you are.” Olivia to Broyles: “He was right, I made an emotional choice”. I don’t think that Bolivia is so much attached to Peter and Walter at the moment as she is attached to her old life. In that way, she parallels Olivia Over There.

Newton has always implied that to do what needs to be done you need to be a soldier who puts the cause before anything else – but who can really do that? Not even the half-machine shapeshifters, apparently. In a way that has always been a source of strength for our Olivia (she needed to divorce herself from fear to move forward in some way and to survive the experiments – Nick’s fatal flaw was his heighten emotions) but at the same time it is her emotions that truly make her who she is and where her real power lies. Her current connection to our side is purely emotional. Her visions of Peter are her connection to reality as opposed to recognition of things that don’t seem right or are different from Over Here. I think it will be emotions, and how they shape our perceptions of ourselves and others, that will become increasingly important in this game of hide the Olivia.

In the same way as both Olivias emotions are shaping their inability to integrate, it is emotion that is preventing Peter from making the connection. Perhaps it will be someone like Astrid or Broyles with less of an emotional connection to Olivia who will discover the truth.

I agree that emotions are key. What does that say about Newton and his relative lack thereof? He knows that emotions are the ‘wild card’ whether they are Olivia’s or Altlivia’s or those of a sleeper-shifter. He recognizes them (it would seem) only as a weakness – but, we know from Olivia that they are most definitely also a strength. So, his lack of understanding emotion -in turn becomes His weakness. Does this weakness extend to Walternate himself as cut off as he seems?

I like that. I agree that the difference between Walter and Walternate appear to be their ability to access and control their emotions. Walter, in many ways, is emotion at its most extreme – no control, no filter. Whereas Walternate is so totally divorced from his emotions that he appears almost inhumane. It was unrestrained emotion that brought this whole thing on (Walter’s inability to handle Peter’s death, or even to return Peter once he had saved him) but it also seems that harnessing emotion is the key to winning the “war” (ie the Cortexiphan trials and Olivia’s fear issues). Perhaps there is a way to strike a balance?

“I mean any confused looks/smiles she may give don’t nec indicate ambivalence – simply that she is trying to feel her way around in this place.”

I agree. In the over here eps, I notice the Altlivia seems to be “rolling her eyes” – looking away, dropping the happy act as soon as she gets Newton on the phone. And she called him 30 times! The nervousness/self loathing may trump the “pretending into love” angle. At least I hope it does; shooting the deaf guy in the back of his head two eps ago, combined with her fakiness, are rapidly eroding any sympathy I had for AltLivia.

OK I hope I’m not repeating anything ’cause I only skimmed over some of the longer posts above, but how can we be sure that Peter and Altlivia actually did the deed? Surely TBTB knew that this episode would be the last before the forced baseball hiatus, and were looking to get a proper cliffhanger in there. Couldn’t the next episode “over here” open just as they were about to actually engage in voluntary carnal congress (sorry, I went to Catholic summer camp when I was a kid) and have the phone ring to interrupt things?

While I admit that Altlivia is willing for/desirous of this to happen (whether for tactical or deeper emotional reasons as others have posited) I can’t help but think that the writers know that in the minds of the fans this would be a crossing of the Rubicon as it were, and would be hesitant to actually let it occur.

I keep remembering at Comic Con this summer, when the producers asked, “Who wants sex?” and Jeff Pinkner walked to Josh and Anna and motioned behind them. Later Josh implied that the “sex,” “…wasn’t what they [the audience at Comic Con] were cheering for.” So, the last scene in “Do Shapeshifters….” didn’t surprise me, and yet, it still shocked me…if that makes sense.

A question…or clarification. I may get the answer on rewatch, but did Newton purposefully wreck his car to keep Peter from getting himself killed chasing so recklessly? Considering what we all know by now, Peter is “important,” I thought so.

I wouldn’t be surprised, Catherine, if the shapeshifters first rule was, don’t let Peter Bishop get killed. They’re loyal to Walternate and Peter is important to him, and it seems, strategically important to their world.

We didn’t see them close the front door, did we? I have this vision of Sam walking in on them, board game in hand. That would be too cool, especially given that neither one of them would recognize him.

Although I am unsure whether or not Peter and Altolivia actually consumated their union, please don’t blame him too much. He recognizes things are not the same but lord he doesn’t seem to have gotten anything for over 2 years now. It always surprises me when women are heartbroken when their men leave but they haven’t been intimate with them in months. How actually do you suppose Peter should recognize Olivia by the “look in her eye”. You shippers are just a little bit too moonstruck for my liking.

I do need to comment on Peter with Walter. Now that is odd. He smiles at him, goes home from date because of him. Now that is something that doesn’t fit at all. He should be having a bit more trouble reconciling his conflicting feelings with Walter. IMO he should not be living with him at all.

This was a GREAT episode. I was not that happy with the over here episodes but this episode turned me around. I just have to remember not to watch all the promos because they do take away from the surprise. Still very compelling.

Peter is still Walter’s caretaker, so he’s still living with him. I don’t think they have reconciled yet. I noticed in The Box and here, that Peter smiles and is at ease with Walter, whenever they are at work or the subject is not personal. However, if Walter tries a more personal approach, Peter closes off. We saw that in The Box, but not in this episode, because their scenes were mostly about work. Notice how when Altlivia sent Peter the message, he wasn’t having dinner at home, as he used to.

Peter freaked out visibly, when Walter was in danger, but that’s understandable, because Peter does love Walter. That doesn’t mean, he’s willing to forgive him yet or let him back in his life completely.

After reading so many views on this ep, it seems that anything I would add would be superfluous except to note little things that stayed with me after the first viewing. Little things like: why is BOlivia changing her hair color to be so blonde in the first place? It just seems to me that if I wanted to impersonate somebody (no less infiltrate a high-security government organization), I’d try to keep things as much the same as I could. Here, she’s got Peter announcing that he sees the changes in her, she’s got a stoned Walter seeing glimmers in her hair…so her logic is to change her hair to a different color–a color that Olivia never EVER was?

I’m really not this much of a hair person, but Olivia’s hair is so much an external manifestation of her character that I seem to be more sensitive to it than I normally am.

Another thing that stayed with me had to do with the difference between Bolivia’s and Olivia’s “presence” (for lack of a better word). I’m not sure if this has to do with the director or perhaps AT’s interpretation of the character, but throughout the episode I couldn’t shake the feeling that Bolivia looked positively…snaky(?)…hawkish(?)…perhaps even touching on evil? There was something in that smile of hers. I dunno, but if I just walked in on the series and didn’t know who was whom, I’d have pointed at her and marked her as a bad guy.

Then comes the preview and there was “our” Olivia (the very one who I fell in love with in the pilot so long ago). Even brainwashed she was our Olivia without any doubt. The contrast between the two presences reached out and almost literally jerked my head around. For me it was a real “woa, what’s this?” moment. What a testament to Anna Torv and how she’s playing these characters!

Frankly, I don’t care what the show runners are saying about what they want us to feel toward the characters in the AU. Good and bad (blue and red) overtones are leaking under the door, boys. I’m still waiting to see something redeeming about BOlivia, Walternate, and Newton (except Newton was SUCH a great bad guy, Walternate still seems to be the quintessential A. H., and Bolivia is an inter-universe Mata hari who has a smile that makes my skin crawl). The fact is that how the audience will feel about the “other side” is how they will feel about these specific people. I’m supposed to feel warm and cuddly here?

Ok. Peter. Does it seem that poor Peter seems to get involved with people who are lying from the get go–relationships that have no actual reality? I mean, when we met him he was a kind of nomad, a life which–by definition–is only a series of temporary, constantly changing relationships. We know he had some kind of a relationship with a woman who seems to like mobsters who smack her around a little (sort of Peter had a HO HO–no reality there), we’ve got his relationship with Walter, now he’s bonging a woman who we know is living a lie and not even from this universe. Over and over, I’m reading comments about his being stupid about his not reacting to the changes in Olivia. Could it be that he is so desperate for a real, actual, material relationship that he would “overlook” these changes? Maybe he’s so used to these insubstantial relationships that it no longer raises any flags. And yes, love does make you stupid–take it from me . Comments have been made about his snap decision to return “over here”. In that one instant in his room, when our Olivia made her plea for him to return “because you belong with me”…and that kiss (which was tender and very very substantial ) was irresistible to him. Peter has always been alone in his life–even as a child in the AU, really. There–right there, right then–was a REAL woman who actually loved him. To me, his reason for returning was as right and believable as any. Peter will find out about Bolivia, no doubt. At that instant maybe it will be like the assassination scene in “Julius Caesar”. If we are to believe Brutus, it wasn’t the sword wounds that killed him. No, it was the fact that all who Caesar knew and who he considered to be his friends were the ones wielded the murder weapons. In the play, Brutus says that Julius Caesar actually died of a broken heart.

…and what a death will we see when Peter finds out? Perhaps the death of his belief that, in the last analysis, love is something substantial–that there is true good and true bad that exist just as certainly as any physical constant? I so want Peter to believe in something, someBODY. In the last scene of the last episode of “Fringe” I want to see Peter and Olivia walk into the moonlight hand in hand. Right now, it sure looks like it’s going to be a VERY long trip to that end.

Your musings remind me of Peter’s comment in “Midnight” that despite his being a world class cynic he affirms that there’s something to be said for the claim that beneath ever cynic is a frustrated romantic. My favorite aspect of Peter’s character has been the development (though admittedly not front and center in the show) away from deep cynicism toward a belief in “the impossible” and a mission in life, with his emotional attachment to Olivia and Walter as the driving force that drew him in and kept him “on mission” with them. What will happen if/when Peter finally finds out? (I say ‘if’ because I’m not sure he hasn’t figured it out and is playing his own game). How will Peter change? We saw him regress (somewhat) to his past self in Northwest Passage, but his desire to defy and catch Newton were still driving him. Will Peter, especially with the prospect of more pieces to the Weapon, become more independent yet dedicated to working with the team toward a common goal, or will this drive Peter to the “darker side” of his emotional nature and away from our team?

“Perhaps the death of his belief that, in the last analysis, love is something substantial–that there is true good and true bad that exist just as certainly as any physical constant? I so want Peter to believe in something, someBODY.”

I think Peter does believe in Olivia, and does love her. I think that if he has jumped into bed with AltLIv, that when he has discovered how he let himself be duped, he will have to confront his own lack of faith in himself. Even more than how Walter has let him down, and Olivia in not telling him the truth about himself right away, Peter has let himself down here by not following through on his doubts about AltLiv. UNLESS, like LMH says below, and part of me agrees with this, Peter knows it’s the wrong Olivia and he is trying to find out how to get back to her, and needs AltLiv to trust him enough to take him back to the other side/find out where our Olivia is. Either way, he will have to deal with the fact he slept with AltLIv, whether consciously accepting who she is or not. If he becomes disillusioned with love, it won’t be because of Olivia, it will be because of himself. And then I think we’ll see how much he learns about love and the possibility of forgiveness.

It is especially heart-breaking for me that he did this in the episode right after we see how his image, the idea of his love for her and their connection, is keeping Olivia alive inside AltLiv.

I loved all of these comments. I also really want Peter to believe in Something. And I think that that is what he has always wanted for himself.
And SF I agree completely that he “will have to confront his own lack of faith in himself”.

All of the important people in his life have betrayed him – Walter left him and his mother and went insane (even before he knew that Walter kidnapped him), his mother waited til he was out of the country and then killed herself, Olivia’s lie of omission. But this (unless, of course he Knows already about Altlivia) – this is him betraying not only Olivia – but *himself*. The Con-man has conned himself.
And If Peter cannot trust himself, how will he be able to ask Olivia or anyone to trust him? I begin to wonder if Olivia might not forgive him before he forgives himself.

“I begin to wonder if Olivia might not forgive him before he forgives himself.”

Excellent point, BklynBetty. I was just beginning to think this too. Olivia has shown that she is capable of forgiveness, while Peter is withholding this from Walter while he comes to terms with what was done. And yet, as I write this, I remember how Peter forgave Olivia once she admitted how long she had known, and how she felt being apart from him. He has shown he is capable of forgiveness – even as he doesn’t ask the questions that he should be asking, like of Eliznate: “why did you let me go with the other Walter?” and of Olivia: “why didn’t you tell me?” That’s why I think there is a tendency in him to not ask for the whole truth, because even when he finds out he’s been lied to, he doesn’t always ask for it all. Who will forgive the other first?

I think we have a wild ride ahead of us – and it really does seem like we have fallen down the rabbit hole now, doesn’t it?

throughout the episode I couldn’t shake the feeling that Bolivia looked positively…snaky(?)…hawkish(?)…perhaps even touching on evil? There was something in that smile of hers. I dunno, but if I just walked in on the series and didn’t know who was whom, I’d have pointed at her and marked her as a bad guy.

I’m completely with you here. I was wondering why no one has mentioned that until now. It struck me particularly since Altlivia in her own universe seemed to be a lot more easy-going not only in her private live, but ALSO in her job.
Sure, she has a mission Over Here, but she seemed cold and evil to me (and I actually did use this word in a conversation with a friend).

I think Bolivia is scared. She’s over here, in enemy territory, without a friend in the world, literally. And Walternate has given her an assignment that is way over her head and makes her compromise her conscience. I think she is normally confident and cocky.

A quick observation about the shapeshifter’s memory vertebrae: It was oh so X-Files. It reminded me immediately of knowle rohrer the supersoldier, who after being ground up in a garbage truck compressor was little more than a metallic vetebrae that of course reanimated and magically grew the villain back to full size.

Great episode!!!! I’m still sooo invested in Ourlivia Over There (couldn’t stop thinking about what is going on the other side with her), but at the same time I was on the edge of my seat the whole time.

The sex scene was creepy and sad. It’s sad the Peter took that road, but I think in terms of plot is great, because it makes everything so much harder for everyone. Peter is being lied once again and he is going to feel he’s the one to blame. He is now the one betraying, the one who is going to ask for forgiveness… So interesting. On the other side, Ourlivia is trapped, broken and forgotten… I can only imagine how fantastic will be the encounter of these two again. It’s probably going to be heartbreaking and terrible sad.

The only thing that really got on my nerves with this episode was that Bolivia was acting soooo weird the whole time. She was so obviously trying to sabotage the case… She can do better than that. But I have to say it was good to see her torn on how to act on her relationship with Peter. She obviously didn’t want to be with him, I think the TPTB should focus on that. She’s is also struggling, as Ourlivia…

Again, this go on to show that Fringe is essentially about Olivia, at least for me.

Once I got over seeing my nightmare from the summer come true (Peter and AltLIv hook up), I have come to see how good this episode is. What really strikes me is how characters are doing things that are changing how we see them, moment by moment. This seems to me to be an episode about lines being crossed. I wrote about it in a comment above, and it seems to me that we get several characters moving forward so quietly over the line. Walter not only moves into MD, but also into the lab. Doesn’t he look completely at home in there? I love the new lab! But what about Walter saying he does his best thinking in the Harvard Lab? Is this a sign that he is moving on, within himself and outwardly, to reach for the future he thinks he should have had? And Astrid so very quietly says that she doesn’t mind the grossness so much now – what a statement from her. I can’t see her going back to being an ordinary FBI agent now.

The biggest line I think was said by Newton to AltLiv, but as is the case with what he said to Olivia before in The Bishop Revival(and I’m glad someone else said this above too!), it has two meanings. “Your emotions betray you. Words like integrity and self-respect – they aren’t you. They form a line that you are unwilling to cross. And that will be your undoing.” At first I thought it meant that he thought Olivia wasn’t strong enough to complete her mission, that she didn’t have integrity and self-respect. I then thought he was afraid that she would lose her way in the mission, become fascinated, interested in, and then come to love our universe. Then, the more I thought about it, the more I realized this is what I hope will happen to AltLIv – that immersion in our universe will change her, so that she can no longer believe our destruction is necessary, but fight alongside Olivia to save both universes. That what Newton thinks is a mistake, is actually a truth: just like Olivia values life (Walter Bishop) over capturing Newton (and was right to make that choice, it’s not a weakness but a strength), so AltLiv’s only chance to succeed with integrity and self-respect is to keep listening to her feelings and wondering every night if she can succeed in her mission. That as a machine, he can’t understand how feelings can lead to a greater truth than originally known. Walternate has sent her on a mission – we don’t know what yet – and the longer she is on our side, the more scared and less able to be like Olivia consistently, she becomes.

I also think it’s about lines people cross, like I said before, and how everyone is suddenly not so clear-cut villains and heroes on Fringe. It really leaves the possibility for forgiveness for all the characters, as well as exploring what it means to lose your way and to find it again. All of our main characters seem lost in some way as they cross their lines into new territory. I like this, I find it fascinating, and I’m impressed with how much this episode contained too.

We learned so much more about the shapeshifters, including that Newton was a full shapeshifter – I expect the poison he took will destroy his memory pack – and that yes, indeed, androids do dream. Our universe is so alluring that even shapeshifters, if programmed to take a human place, can learn to want to stay among us. I found myself impressed by Newton even as he killed so many people, because he stays on mission, even though it kills him in the end. And yes, I had the definite impression that he crashed the car on purpose during the chase. Safeguarding AltLiv (and possibly Peter) was more important than even his existence. At the same time, I wished he could be around more – he was such a good villain!

And I’d just like to add my very own NOOOOOOOO to Peter and AltLiv. No matter all the reasons it is/could be happening, my shipper heart is in torment again.

I just noticed that when Altlivia picked up the phone in Van Horn’s office she said that it was “Rachel”. WTF!!!!! So are Rachel and Ella around or not?! If so, ummm writers how about a shout-out from Olivia’s family Over Here to help Peter realize that this is NOT OLIVIA! Altlivia is not a shapeshifter, so at this point it is not even plausible that she hasn’t been called out. Shapeshifters were made to adapt and evolve (at least this is implied in the episode), but I am really tired of waiting for someone to come around Over Here.

I have to second your “WTF”. This disappearing/reappearing family routine is getting old and reeks of contrivance. Ella’s there to get her brain melted by a computer program, and to listen to Walter’s drug-induced fairy tale, and to accept Olivia’s cross at the end of OT pt 1 to really, REALLY drive home what’s at stake and Rachel is there to worry after her – and then they’re gone. Does Rachel even have a job? How is it that she is always ‘away’?

At the end of last season, Rachel was looking for an apartment. Olivia thought she was going to be reassigned because Fringe division was closing and she was ready to move (although this was completely glossed over and barely recognized within the show). And now Olivia has a new apartment and I guess we are to assume that Rachel and Ella got their own apartment.

Remember that, in that episode, Olivia says something along the lines of “We should do this more often.” To me, this implied that Rachel and Ella had indeed moved into their own apartment and they had arranged to come over and spend the night that night, and Olivia was saying that they should get together and have little sleepovers like that more often. Makes sense, though I agree that they could have done a better job at showing them actually move out in order to avoid confusion.

Thanks to you all for clearing that up for me. mlj102 – you are perfectly right about Olivia’s comment – I did not pick up on the full meaning of that.
It also ties in with Sam noting all of Olivia’s unpacked boxes earlier in the season. I’m sold.

(Oct. 15 Episode) You had a factual error in the program. Dr. Bishop said that the Mad Hatter in “Alice in wonderland” was due to mercury poisoning. FALSE. Hatters used antimony to size felt. Antimony is a heavy metal and the results of exposure are the same as other heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury

Ok-after reading every comment (and one of my own), gotta get my two cents in, although depending on your universe’s conversion rate, the value may vary (I’m told I’m worth a Jr. over there XD)

1) First off-I missed something somewhere, because the fact that Newton is/was a shapeshifter caught me completely by surprise. Where did I miss this fact? And there will be no retrieving Newton’s memory unit-the show made it pretty obvious there was circuitry on the deadly acid tab Newton was given. I’m sure we will be told it contained a computer virus. Very sad-TJN was one of the most compelling antagonists I’ve seen on TV in some time (better even then Dr. Jones), but we have Bolivia now, so it was logical he would go.

2) All the hubbub about Peter and Bolivia-it was a necessary evil. I read a couple of earlier comments hinting at this, and a whole article on a different website, but I’m thinking Peter’s playing a game that only he knows the rules to. Long time watchers know his checkered past, but this episode hammered you upside the head with the fact that he’s an expert at reading people (all the better to execute a con-you can play off a person’s strength, weakness, and emotion. HE KNOWS! Both blue episodes have had a moment where he questions Bolivia’s identity. Both have had Bolivia trying to distract him with sex. And I firmly believe that on Nov. 11 (the next Blue episode), their little rendezvous with be interrupted by a Broyles call, “Thomas Jerome Newton is dead in his cell-get over here now!”

3) Walter and Peter haven’t really been able to showcase their tension-yet. But the show has been extremely careful to show us that they aren’t a team like they were last year. Walter’s been in his lab, and the one time he wasn’t-he went to Astrid’s. I get the feeling it was because nobody was at home. Peter is shown by himself. He himself states he only goes home to prevent Walter from calling emergency rooms. We don’t see him bringing Walter to and from crime scenes. In fact, we have him asking Astrid to do just that. There’s tension there-we’ve just been too busy with Olivia and Bolivia to notice (and kudos to Anna Torv for keeping it there)

4) While I am not thrilled about Lowatus returning for the NLCS and World Series, the fact that we’ve been waiting for two weeks at a time for the story to continue makes a two week wait a tiny bit less aggravating. If the Yankees lose it’ll be even less aggravating. And the sneak peek for episode five (which Roco has posted already) makes that time fly. I could watch that clip repeatedly and still not laugh when Olivia dressed as Peter says, “You can take all the pills you want-I’m not going away.”

After the opening scene when Newton is shot, we see AltLiv call him, and he is in the sun somewhere, patching up his shot shoulder – mercury is seen in his shoulder, and the skin heals up with the application of something. So confirmation that he is indeed a shapeshifter. I’m intrigued by the idea of levels of shapeshifters that another commentator made, earlier!

In the episode Newton is first show (the episode about the frozen heads), it is shown very clearly that he is a shapeshifter. You can see his silver blood while the head is being reattached to his body.

Well, in season 2 when Olivia remembers the warning from William Bell that there is something that she has to stop – it was to stop “them” from finding Newton – where i believe he was referred to as ‘the leader of the shape-shifters’ (maybe in ‘Momentum Deferred?’). – which doesn’t nec make him one, but it doesn’t hurt. That and he was revived after his head was on ice for (how many?) years. Again, *maybe* the AU technology can revive a human like that, but we don’t know that.
I’m trying to remember if there was something more explicit, but Someone here would know…

Okay, I was probably too enthralled by dude getting his head reattached (now there was some shock value-not quite dude’s head exploding, but still…) to notice any silver blood during the procedure. I need to get the DVDs so I can catch stuff like that. But, if over there has the tech to perform brain surgery without the paitient on anathesia (“Grey Matters”), re-integrate brain tissue (again, “Grey Matters”), repair third degree burns with no scarring (“Over There, pt. 1″ and on-going), and implant memories (“Olivia” and on-going, albeit with questionable success), is it really that much of a stretch thinking re-attaching a cryogenically preserved head is not in Over There’s skill-set?

No, it’s not a stretch, but if Isa saw mercury blood – that’s pretty definitive. Also, though, i think that there were only shifters Over Here at that time, because they could cross over somehow. I don’t think that Over There humans could even cross over to here Until Newton got the information on how out of Walter’s newly (and Briefly) reconstituted brain.

You may be right. Peter may know completely that Bolivia is not “his Olivia” and may be playing his own con with her. it would be in keeping with the con man past and the, “I’ve always been able to read people. It’s sortof what I do,” from the pilot. I recall, however, that our Olivia conned the con man in the pilot. Could Bolivia have the same ability?

I dunno. It’s being played too close to tell. Has Peter been duped by love (and sex) or is he fully aware and working his own angle? Good for the writers. We shouldn’t be able to figure it out, yet.

“Long time watchers know his checkered past, but this episode hammered you upside the head with the fact that he’s an expert at reading people (all the better to execute a con-you can play off a person’s strength, weakness, and emotion. HE KNOWS! Both blue episodes have had a moment where he questions Bolivia’s identity. Both have had Bolivia trying to distract him with sex. And I firmly believe that on Nov. 11 (the next Blue episode), their little rendezvous with be interrupted by a Broyles call, “Thomas Jerome Newton is dead in his cell-get over here now!” ”

You know – maybe you are right. I mean, the guy can’t be a ‘genius’ one day and of glaringly sub-par intellect the next, eh? I mean, that is the premise, is it not? The writers wouldn’t throw away 2 years of setting up his character (such as it is) JUST to mess with us – not when they can maintain his character’s consistency AND mess with us anyway (the best of Both worlds, so to speak)!
And forget about Olivia trusting him – we are also supposed to Not want to see him strapped to an inter-dimensional Wave Sink Death Machine….
So, I was re-watching the show – and about 23/24 minutes in, when the team is leading Patricia Van Horn into the lab – is it me or is our Peter watching Altlivia like a hawk walking down that hallway? Like sizing her up, maybe?
Maybe the interruption won’t even be Broyles – maybe Peter will get Altlivia into a (ahem) vulnerable position and just turn on her. Maybe.

Did anyone notice that early in the episode, when Walter is analysing Bolivia’s hair, she leaves the lab and Walter keeps looking at her really suspicious? I guess Walter is soon going to realize it’s not Ourlivia.

Finally, finally got around to watching the episode…and I liked it a lot. But I am quite tired of “this” side’s ignorance. I feel like these plot contrivances are just a way of getting viewers to love the “other” side, or whatever all TPTB keep stressing in interviews. Frankly, I could care less for the “other” side, even if those episodes have been more interesting and of better quality. I watch this show for the interactions of the ensemble cast, not just super heroine Olivia.

Peter started to show some positive traits for once this season – noting the differences in Olivia – but that was quickly squashed and he is back to clueless mode. Ridiculous.

And sadly, Newton appears dead now. I hope it is not permanent, but what a loss this is. First Jones, now Newton. Why is it that the charismatic villain (sub-villain?) always has his life cut short in the midst of an engaging run on the show? And Newton has been far more interesting (to me, anyway) than any of the other jokers from the other side. Far more charismatic and entertaining than Walternate, Scarlie, Lincoln, Bolivia, etc… Maybe it’s juts me, but I don’t give 2 shakes for the alt characters, though Scarlie does seem to have the most depth and likability. (Broylanate too.)

Personally, I’m glad that they don’t draw out certain characters too long. Characters like Jones and Newton truly were amazing villains, but because they died when and how they did, they left, leaving us with such high opinions of them.

Too often a show knows they have a good villain, so they’re reluctant to actually kill off that villain. They draw it out as long as possible, and then some, until the villain just becomes lame. Heroes comes to mind. Sylar was a fantastic villain, and because of that, they just couldn’t bring themselves to kill him off. Consequently, the character lost a lot of what made him so wonderful as a villain, and he became little more than a joke. While I would like to have seen more Jones and Newton (and I still believe it’s not out of the realm of possibility for Newton to return), I’m glad they dealt with those characters the way they did, rather than refusing to kill them off, and in so doing, completely ruining the character in the process.

I’m glad that Fringe isn’t afraid to kill off some of the guest characters or the supporting cast. As sad as I was to lose Charlie, it was sort of natural to expect that someone was going to die eventually. It’s a bit cheap when a show constantly puts their characters in danger, but never kills them. Again, I think of Heroes. Characters died, but then they always found a way back. It made it ridiculous and hard to take anything seriously or to care because you knew the characters would never really die. And Heroes isn’t the only show to make this mistake. I think it’s important that a show remain realistic in those aspects and that it knows how far it can push certain stories or characters. Otherwise it will lose its credibility and quality.

“As sad as I was to lose Charlie, it was sort of natural to expect that someone was going to die eventually.”

Thank you for that! I liked Charlie well enough and I enjoy seeing him in the alternate universe, but I didn’t really miss him during S2. His death made sense within the show and it was well done. That’s how I like good characters like him to go if they have to.

Agreed–I’m glad the show hasn’t succumbed to what I think of as “Marvel Comics Syndrome” and refused to kill off a good villain just because he or she is popular. If you’re reasonably sure nobody is going to stay dead for real, it lowers the stakes and cheapens their deaths.

Those were the most excruciating 30 last seconds of an episode of my life! ;(
I knew it was going to happen since the episode began I just really, really, really was trying not to think about it, God I’m going to kill Peter! he knows there is something wrong, newton is right, he knows and he is still doing this!

Great episode, I’m just angry right now, I can’t believe that just happened!

Sorry, but just to be clear in one point, I hate Alt!livia, I have been giving her the benefit of the doubt, and I think she doubt there for a second, but now, I just completely hate her, there is no way that I’m going to like her ever again, EVER!

Suddenly during the episode I thought it was the first real chance we had that out side had a chance at talking or maybe work together with the other side but I also got the feeling that our little family is never going to recover, again, I hate Peter! God, I just think about the scene and I am like How the hell did this come to happen? I can’t believe it!

I’d been dreading that scene too; but my final reaction was quite different. Why? Because I think the elements of the scene made it seem kind of pathetic and depressing. AltLivia’s grimacing and planting a fake smile on before opening the door, the low-budget/ominous soft porn-ish music, both of them acting like animals in heat who couldn’t remember to CLOSE THE APT. DOOR – made the whole episode very un-romantic.

That’s how it was suppose to be though. Their act interweaved between a guy committing suicide. It was suppose to be very unromantic and make people squirm. All three people in that scene were in some shape or form committing an act that would have huge consequences.

Newton dieing but knowing that he had pushed altOlivia over the edge and getting her to cross a line that she wouldn’t expect herself to cross. Then there is Peter. Who I think knows something is not quite right, but doesn’t want to think of that, because he loves Olivia and has for a long time and just wants to be with her and for it to work so badly. So, despite his doubts he pushes forward, being with Olivia and doing what he thinks will cement his commitment to her further.

However, as we know when he finds out that he did something against his better judgement, I suspect that it will tear him apart and get him to question further who he is and what he stands for. Same thing for altOlivia when she goes home, which I’m guessing she will at some point.

This is my opinion only, because I don’t think Peter has connected the dots, despite him noticing she’s changed. Another thought i had, is that in the past, the writers have said that they have gotten Peter to voice what the audience is thinking. Could his speech in the cafetaria just be a way of the writers saying, yes we acknowledge this is what the audience is saying about the situation?

God points, I have had like two days to calm down so everything is lookin a little better, and I was reading in another forum that reall Peter is going through a lot of things right now and even if he is feeling something is wrong he might not want to think about it because, as you poiinted out, he has been in love with her for a little bit over a year, well at least that’s how I see it, and he has all these things to think about right now: walter, the machine, his mother, walternate, it’s just so much and Olivia has remain his only constant so, he might not want to see beyond that because it is too difficult right now where he is standing, and as some other are pointing out I don’t even know what is going to be worst, him trying to forgive himself for what he has done or Olivia forgiving him (I’m a bit fuzzy there, maybe Olivia is not going to be that angry or conflicted directly at peter, but at the whole situation).

and the scene, well, I just keep seeing it and placing my hands over my eyes to not see everything, I just can see the betrayal.

I went back and watched the end of “Olivia.” It makes a whole different impression with the hindsight that Senator Van Horn, the shapeshifter, was the one who was interviewing Peter. The pen wasn’t out of ink. Shapeshifter Van Horn just didn’t want to write down the part where Peter says that Walternate didn’t want him to help save their world, Walternate wanted Peter to help destroy this one.

Well, Walternate knows that is what Peter calls him. I’m sure that went over big.

Does nobody else agree? That moment where she has a mini-freakout in the bathroom after their date was just a little nugget to show that she is actually uncomfortable here, and Newton taunting her put her under so much pressure. Like our Olivia, she’s in a position where she is solely responsible for saving her world. And the final scene? Let’s not label her a sl*t/b**ch for that. She’s just trying to save her universe and family, but in the process she has to basically sell her body and betray the man she really loves. That would be scary for anyone, right? It seems like she and Frank really had something great going. We probably won’t see it on the show, but I bet she bawled her eyes out the next morning. I know I would.

Peter is also to﻿ blame here. He knew something was up. He had her in the cafeteria (when he mentioned the little differences, you could see her just thinking “f*********************ck”) then he dismissed it. One thing’s for sure: he’ll never forgive himself for this once he learns the truth.

Just wanted to add–I think there’s some major double standards going on here. It takes two to tango, after all, and how many straight men are going to turn down a beautiful woman who basically invites him over to her apartment and says “Take me now!”? And if Peter DOES know what’s going on and is playing his own game, well, nobody bats an eyelash when, say, James Bond shags a gorgeous double agent solely in the line of duty, so why should this be any different? Just sayin’.

The “double standard” is there simply because I think Peter is better than that. So if he went that route, knowing that she isn’t his Olivia (or even greatly suspecting that she isn’t her) then, for me, that hurts my opinion of him.

As for your James Bond example, that’s a good point. I’m not a huge James Bond fan, so I don’t know for sure, but I think the difference is that when he would do that all in the name of accomplishing his mission, James Bond never had someone he was committed to. While Peter and Olivia were still in the very early stages of any sort of relationship, it was there and had been addressed, so Peter should feel the need to be faithful to her and to them. There would be other ways for him to spy on alternate Olivia that don’t involve him cheating on our Olivia.

I still feel so torn. On the one hand, he has to know that this woman he’s been with over the last little while is not the woman he has come to know and care for. He has to have realized that. But if he has, why is he not showing any concern at all for our Olivia, where she is, if she’s okay, and how to go back and bring her back over here? I would expect him to make that his top priority and he wouldn’t be content to passively gather information while not knowing what is happening to his Olivia in the meantime. He cares about her too much to have that sort of attitude or reaction towards finding out that his Olivia is nowhere to be found. So looking at it that way, it has to be that he doesn’t know. But that brings me back to square one where I just can’t accept that he hasn’t put two and two together and realized that alternate Olivia isn’t his Olivia. No matter how I look at it, I just don’t feel satisfied with the possibilities. I’m losing hope that this one will turn out in a way that I will feel happy with it.

“I would expect him to make that his top priority and he wouldn’t be content to passively gather information while not knowing what is happening to his Olivia in the meantime. He cares about her too much to have that sort of attitude or reaction towards finding out that his Olivia is nowhere to be found. ”

I completely agree and it’s IMMENSELY frustrating. I can well believe in the cool, collected and calculating Peter – it’s par for the course for being a ‘con-man’- but, I can’t really believe that it would be the side of him that takes over (at least not Initially) – if he figured out that Olivia is not Olivia and therefor Olivia must be in danger. One expects him to be climbing the walls and demanding answers!
That said, however, i have come around (been brought around by comments here) to believing that he must know, and I stand by an earlier comment: The writers wouldn’t throw away 2 years of setting up his character (as a genius and a people -reader) JUST to mess with us – not when they can maintain his character’s consistency AND mess with us anyway.
But, whether he knows or not – if he actually sleeps with Altliv – he is going to have a LOT to answer for.

“One expects him to be climbing the walls and demanding answers!”
That’s not his character. Was he like that, when he discovered the truth about himself?

He’s not stupid. If he knows they have the wrong Olivia, interrogating her is not a good idea. First, she wouldn’t talk. Second, Walternate would know and it would put our Olivia in more danger. And third, it would make an undercover mission over there impossible.

However, he could not know, just like the others. Maybe episode 6 will give us more clues.

I understand your point about his reaction to learning the truth about himself – (although in NWP he did want answers from Newton), but no one seemed to be in immediate danger over that revelation and certainly not Olivia who had just crossed Universes to ‘save’ him. He gets angry when people he cares about are threatened – he was angry with Olivia for suggesting that he let Jessica Warren even talk to Walter, for fear of what it might do to him. Granted he can’t know exactly what is happening to Olilvia now, but he would have to know that it was nothing good.

“He gets angry when people he cares about are threatened.”
Very true. But the show is going with the suspense: Does he know or not? So they can’t show him getting angry or any other reaction, that would give away the answer.

Why does he look so tired (if you cared to look closely)? Is he spending sleepless nights, because he’s obsessing over the Weapon or is he worrying about Olivia? I don’t know, but I think it’s fun to speculate

i think i can say that it was a poor choice of words on my part – obviously Peter is a thoughtful guy – he’s not going anywhere guns a-blazing. I guess i just mean that, If he knows, then All that we are seeing is the cold calculating side – and I think this underplays the emotional investment that he has in Olivia.

I am torn, too, but if I had to choose, I’d prefer it if he was conning Altlivia. The main reason is that if he is being deceived, she’s basically raping him and I find that far too disturbing. I also think that, if this is the case, the show would probably disregard the implications, because he is a man.
On the other hand, if he’s conning her and has considered that the best course of action is making Altlivia believe, that she’s succeeding in her mission, then yes, that would mean, he’s almost cheating on Olivia (they weren’t in a relationship). Would that make the relationship difficult or impossible? Sure! The thing is that Peter exists outside the bubble of the P/O relationship. He is a questionable character, when he has to be. His shady past doesn’t exist for nothing. I know that he’s capable of good, but he’s not like Olivia and he will never be (and I don’t want him to be). If he’s willing to lose Olivia, in order to save her, it will be consistent with the character.
Of course, I’m getting ahead of myself, because the show could go in a different direction.

“I know that he’s capable of good, but he’s not like Olivia and he will never be (and I don’t want him to be). If he’s willing to lose Olivia, in order to save her, it will be consistent with the character.”

I don’t want him to be like Olivia, either! However, I disagree that he is willing to lose Olivia. I think the contrary – Peter either thinks he has the right Olivia with him now, or he thinks he has to do whatever he can to get back Over There and/or find out what happened (how the switch was made), if he can get AltLiv to talk to/trust in him. I don’t think he is willing to lose Olivia at all.

Now someone raised the interesting question of the double-standard, and I have to say that in this case, I don’t think either one – Peter or AltLiv – is going into this easily. I think there is a danger that these two, who are not at ease in each other’s company now, are playing a game that could be dangerous -and will have ramifications for both people, no matter if Peter knows who she is or not. I think if AltLIv is doing what she can to save her world from destruction, then Peter is doing what he can to save Olivia – and he ‘s trying to figure out the machine to save the world. I guess the question is better, “when the stakes are high, how far are you willing to go to save the one(s) you love?”