Mahamudra is lower than atiyoga because it is less direct, it is not "second class", its goal is the same as atiyoga. Sutra is lower than Vajrayana because it is even less direct. Doesn't mean it's "third class".

MiphamFan wrote:You have the wrong impression of the nine yana scheme.

Mahamudra is lower than atiyoga because it is less direct, it is not "second class", its goal is the same as atiyoga. Sutra is lower than Vajrayana because it is even less direct. Doesn't mean it's "third class".

I think you've been listening to Fox News. You might want to switch channels now and then to see what everyone else says.

Until recently, until HHDL forced the issue by inviting Nyingma lamas to teach at his monasteries, many Gelugpas refused to even touch Nyingma or Dzogchen texts.

Last edited by smcj on Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MiphamFan wrote:You have the wrong impression of the nine yana scheme.

Mahamudra is lower than atiyoga because it is less direct, it is not "second class", its goal is the same as atiyoga. Sutra is lower than Vajrayana because it is even less direct. Doesn't mean it's "third class".

I think you've been listening to Fox News. You might want to switch channels now and then to see what everyone else says.

Until recently, until HHDL forced the issue by inviting Nyingma lamas to teach at his monasteries, many Gelugpas refused to even touch Nyingma or Dzogchen texts.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

My point is quite simple.

You seem to think that the 9 yana scheme from the Dzogchen tantras denigrates Vajrayana and the lower yanas.

I am correcting you on that. Dzogchen teachings don't denigrate them at all, they are all completely valid forms of Buddhadharma. But in the Dzogchen teaching, they all arise from Dzogchen. Of course, practitioners of Dzogchen have always practiced unifying the essence of the three inner yogas (which includes the Sarma tantras).

Dzogchen is not something that only is meant for Nyingmapas or Bonpos.

You seem to think that the 9 yana scheme from the Dzogchen tantras denigrates Vajrayana and the lower yanas.

No, I am commenting on the perspective that says Atiyoga/Dzogchen is somehow insulated from the other 8 yanas, which is a common theme here at DW. It is not a wrong perspective as it is completely within the tradition. However it is not the only presentation.

But in the Dzogchen teaching, they all arise from Dzogchen.

That is a perspective that I am very familiar with and sympathetic to. My teacher spoke at length about it. Thus there is no such thing as the so-called "causal vehicles". That presentation is simply an expedient means. The view, path and result are simultaneous in all Dharma, also called the "one nana" schema. That is what Kalu R. meant when he said, "I see all monks as Arhats." From that Dzogchen premised view taking the vows is simultaneous with accomplishing the result. But that's as seen from and enlightened beings side, not the sentient beings side obviously. There's more to it than that, but yes I understand the premise.

Of course, practitioners of Dzogchen have always practiced unifying the essence of the three inner yogas (which includes the Sarma tantras).

The Sarma 3 Highest Yoga Tantras are equivalent to the Maha-Anu-Ati Yogas. That is not to say they are the same.

Dzogchen is not something that only is meant for Nyingmapas or Bonpos.

Dzogchen is the focus for Nyingma and Bon. Mahamudra is the focus for the Sarma traditions. They are not like oil and water. There is Mahamudra in the Nyingma and Dzogchen in the Sarma. They are equivalent practices, kinda like a Toyota Camry vs. a Honda Accord. They're not the same thing at all, but then again not that much different either. It's simply a matter of opinion whether you like Toyota or Honda better. Either one will get you there.

No, that's not right. Zazen is practiced differently in different Zen schools. Some forms of zazen are more active than others --- some even involve making different sounds. And not all Zen practitioners face the wall. This sounds more like a caricature of Zen than anything else. And there is more to Zen than zazen, such as chanting, kinhin, oriyoki, and many other things.

heart wrote:
As we all know the main practice of Zen is staring in to a wall, without moving, in silence, that is not the definition of Dzogchen practice. But of course it can be practiced like that also. Zen practitioners think that sadhana practice is a kind of fantasy.
/magnus

The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

I am sorry if my experience of Zen is a bit limited. Never the less I think you understand the point I am trying to do.

/magnus

Matt J wrote:No, that's not right. Zazen is practiced differently in different Zen schools. Some forms of zazen are more active than others --- some even involve making different sounds. And not all Zen practitioners face the wall. This sounds more like a caricature of Zen than anything else. And there is more to Zen than zazen, such as chanting, kinhin, oriyoki, and many other things.

heart wrote:
As we all know the main practice of Zen is staring in to a wall, without moving, in silence, that is not the definition of Dzogchen practice. But of course it can be practiced like that also. Zen practitioners think that sadhana practice is a kind of fantasy.
/magnus

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Matt J wrote:No, that's not right. Zazen is practiced differently in different Zen schools. Some forms of zazen are more active than others --- some even involve making different sounds. And not all Zen practitioners face the wall. This sounds more like a caricature of Zen than anything else. And there is more to Zen than zazen, such as chanting, kinhin, oriyoki, and many other things.

heart wrote:
As we all know the main practice of Zen is staring in to a wall, without moving, in silence, that is not the definition of Dzogchen practice. But of course it can be practiced like that also. Zen practitioners think that sadhana practice is a kind of fantasy.
/magnus

I would agree, this is a caricature.

And you didnt mention work! I am only familair with one zen place but there the daily schedule included far more work than time in the zendo. Daily work, ie manual labor, helps very much with integrating what occurs during meditation. Although i never met him, i understand suzuki-roshi was a very hard worker in his day.

I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

heart wrote:I am sorry if my experience of Zen is a bit limited. Never the less I think you understand the point I am trying to do.

No, I don't.

heart wrote:
As we all know the main practice of Zen is staring in to a wall, without moving, in silence, that is not the definition of Dzogchen practice. But of course it can be practiced like that also.

As others have already pointed out, this is quite an exaggerated cariacature of Zen. Zen practice has many components and many levels of meaning.

heart wrote:Zen practitioners think that sadhana practice is a kind of fantasy.

Can you find any quotes that support this assertion of yours?

In the Zen group I occasionally go to, the members there are generally interested in Tibetan Buddhist meditations, although they don't know much about them. I have never heard anyone say anything negative about Tibetan Buddhism there. Not all Zen Buddhists are as sectarian as you seem to assume they are.

smcj wrote:Stepping back, and for a little perspective, even though HHDL practices, promotes, and teaches Dzogchen he is still first and foremost a Gelugpa. So he was not raised in the tradition of the 9 yanas schema that places Dzogchen above and apart from the other 8 yanas. He was raised with the Mahamudra and the Highest Yoga Tantras being the culmination of practice. Highest Yoga Tantra is subdivided into Father, Mother, and Non-Dual (being equivalent to the Maha, Anu, and Ati yogas). I've not heard the kind of rhetoric that says that Mahamudra or the Non-Dual HYT (=Atiyoga/Dzogchen) is somehow separate or otherwise disconnected from the rest of Vajrayana the way Dzogchen is sometimes (not always) discussed in Nyingma. From what I've heard that's a paradigm that is specific to Nyingma and Bön.

There are some people who talk of the "Sutra Mahamudra" or "Essence Mahamudra" paths in the same way some people talk about Dzogchen, actually. Such people claim the Two Stages of Tantric practice are not relevant, or worse, they malign tantric practice.

I am sure the HHDL understands more about the various ways of classifying the vehicles-whether the 3 Yanas, 9 Yanas, or even EkaYana--than most of us do.

Although it's true that Ati is "beyond the two stages" and there are methods and practices that do not follow the Two Stages, all the people I know who identify as Dzogchen practitioners rely to some degree on The Two Stages, in some way, as well as on the practices of the Paramitayana and Mahayana in general. Some of them also maintain monastic vows. There is no contradiction--and frankly, people who spend time and energy asserting that Ati is "Superior" and who adopt an attitude of disparagement toward so-called "lower vehicles," the Two Stages, etc., have a fundamental misunderstanding of Ati, at best, and at worst, a self-inflated importance of their own abilities.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

MiphamFan wrote:Nobody on this forum claims to practice atiyoga and disparages the lower yanas.

I said this above: "practitioners of Dzogchen have always practiced unifying the essence of the three inner yogas", this is a direct quote from ChNN.

I am not claiming anyone here does that, just to be clear. There are people "out there" who do exhibit such attitudes, however....and there have been people here who are no longer here. And, as I said, it's not a misapprehension specific to Ati--it is also a misapprehension for some who claim their path is Mahamudra.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

smcj wrote:HHDL has written at least one book on Dzogchen yet he does 5 different HYT deity practices daily? That sounds like he doesn't buy the "you only need Dzogchen" line of thinking. Has anyone read his Dzogchen book to see what he says about that?

There is absolutely no contradiction between Dzogchen practice and sadhana practice. Dzogchen is not Zen.

/magnus

Well said Magnus, so much confusion about dzogchen and sadhanas. So many masters continue sadhana practice and we all know why.

In some tantras the message is quite uncompromising.
But this advice i take it to be valid only for those who already have knowledge of primordial state and can rest in it in an authentic way.So this is not for those who are unsure about their true nature or are in the process of discerning it.To apply this in such circumstances would be indeed incorrect.

Sattvavajra, understand well! I am the teacher supreme
source, and the teachers of the three dimensions which
are my emanations teach that there are methods of
conferring initiation. Attached to the path of concepts,they do not see my nature.
Listen! I am the teacher supreme source, and as my
nature creates all and pervades all, I have no other aim.
Understand thus that I am beyond conferring or not
conferring [an initiation].
The various types and levels of initiations are taught to
individuals attracted by the variety of characteristics. To
those abiding in the meaning of the unaltered state, I
teach the natural condition that is not conferred [by
initiation].
Listen! As the nature of the supreme source pervades
all, teach those practitioners who recognize and
understand what it means to abide in the natural
condition beyond conferral that there is no need to
receive initiation!
Listen! I, the supreme source, teacher of teachers,
understand and teach that it is not necessary to receive an
initiation. Once one has obtained the power of one's pure
unborn mind, there is no longer any need for the effort
of the initiation of the ten natures. One no longer places
one's hopes in initiation into mantras and mudras and is
no longer attached to initiation into the sacred symbols
and objects.Recognizing the purity of one's mind, one no longer
meditates on the deity with characteristic attributes and
no longer distinguishes between planets, constellations,
and particular astrological conjunctions.Listen! My way of understanding is not shared by the
teachers of the three dimensions, consequently, the true
meaning of the ten natures is hindered. Thus, my nature
is not understood.
Listen! I, the supreme source, teacher of teachers,
teach the teachers of the three dimensions, my first
disciples, the unaltered, authentic, and natural condition.
There is no need to rely on a worldly "deity" to visualize
or to depend on ganacakras or on initiation. As all is
perfected in the power of pure unborn presence, leaving
it as it is without seeking anything, all goals are
spontaneously realized.
................
Listen! Whoever understands the nature of the source
in this way recognizes that it is the nature of all: thus
understand my nature and do not depend any longer on
initiations based on attachment to conceptual
characteristics!

Listen! In order to obtain my capacity for spiritual
action, there is no need to form mudras with the body, to
recite mantras with the voice, or to visualize radiation
and re-absorption with the mind. The enlightenment of
all the Buddhas of the past, present, and future depends
solely on understanding the true nature of spiritual
capacity: non-action. As [the enlightenment of] the
Buddhas of the three times is based on understanding,
you too, Sattvavajra, [should] understand well my
words!

Sattvavajra, understand well! The teachers of the three
dimensions, emanated from my nature, take the most
appropriate form for their disciples and give them to
understand that in order to realize the goal, it is necessary
to acquire the capacity for spiritual action. In terms of the
body, it is necessary to engage in mudras; of the voice, to
recite of mantras; of the mind, to visualize the radiation
and re-absorption [of light]. They do not understand that
one can attain self-realization leaving free the three doors
of body, voice, and mind.

Listen, great being! Do not meditate visualizing with
your mind! Do not turn wisdom into an object of
conceptual thought! It is of no use to mumble formulae
or to recite mantras. It is of no use to form ritual gestures
with your hands. It is of no use to concentrate on
visualizing the radiation and re-absorption [of light].
Remaining in the natural condition, abide in immovable
self-perfection.
Being in the natural state, nobody can correct it.
Remaining in this authentic condition beyond effort
means not acting, and precisely this is the supreme
action. Those who understand this have no need to
perform the various [ritual] actions: without acting they
remain in the fundamental state.
K.G

"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

florin wrote:
In some tantras the message is quite uncompromising.
But this advice i take it to be valid only for those who already have knowledge of primordial state and can rest in it in an authentic way.So this is not for those who are unsure about their true nature or are in the process of discerning it.To apply this in such circumstances would be indeed incorrect.

The Kunjed Gyalpo is a Semde Tantra, you should take a look at the Nyingtik Tantras.
I am sorry, I am just pulling your leg. You think whatever makes you happy. This thread died in september last year, I see no point in reviving it.

/magnus

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

One reason to practice (and a good one) is for the sake of others. Its complicated to explain but essentially we are all connected. We are most especially connected to other members of our Sangha, our teachers, and those who have close karmic ties to us. When you practice your energy becomes patterned by your mantras, prayers and visualizations. Realizing the state of Dzogchen doesnt eliminate the relative universe, it just makes you understand how it arises and where it abides and frees you from delusions regarding this. Actions you perform still produce karmic effects even if those effects are not felt by your mind because you understand everything as self appearance- causality doesnt stop just because you have realized Dzogchen. Thus if you practice OM MANI PADME HUNG you will pattern your energy with that, on a relative level. At the same time you realize this energy and patterning to be a self appearing thing, never removed from the nature of mind, and thus these appearances dont confuse you, delude you, you dont identify with them, and so on. Phenomena stops arising as something other-than-self and when this happens you become free from the attachment and suffering that ordinary practice does create. When you go out into the world you cant give everyone the state of Dzogchen but you can interact with them with your energy humming with your practice and the vibrational frequencies of your mantra.

The main thing about the dichotomy involving the
nine vehicle schema and that of the sarma is distinguishing
exactly what the vehicles are. Nyingmapas do not merge
or conflate vajrayana into mahayana. You don't hear there
lam-rim style presentation that, for example, mahayoga is
a special technique of mahayana practice.

Certain forms and aspects of dzogchen practice *do* take the form of liturgies.
But that doesn't mean that they are therefore what they superficially appear to be.
For Dzogchnpas, the deity is the nature of mind.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.