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Topic: Why all the debate? (Read 8383 times)

So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real. I know how we can find out for sure. Once we die we will know. Its as simply as that. So why do we waste our time trying to disprove God, theres always going to be those who believe in God and those who don't and once we die, we will find out. So good luck to everyone.

So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real. I know how we can find out for sure. Once we die we will know. Its as simply as that. So why do we waste our time trying to disprove God, theres always going to be those who believe in God and those who don't and once we die, we will find out. So good luck to everyone.

What god?

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real.

If we lived in a nation where 75% of the so-called "adult" population believed in the Easter Bunny, if several million of those people were wealthy and influential, and determined to pass laws based on Easter Bunny-ism that affected everyone, even the non-Easter Bunnyists...

If every other street corner in the nation had a temple for people to meet to worship him, and if radio and television was flooded with people preaching the Good News of the Easter Bunny (free candy, if only you believe!)...

If those temples were given tax exemptions, at the cost of higher taxes for everyone else...

If the minority who lacked belief in the Easter Bunny had to struggle with hiding that lack of belief for fear that disclosing their apostasy would result in their property being vandalized, their families ostracizing them, their careers and even their personal safety put at risk...

If that minority were routinely told to move to another country were non-Easter Bunnyism was welcome...

If custody battles in divorce cases were routinely decided in favor of Easter Bunnyists, with the judge explicitly saying that his decision was because non-Easter Bunnyism was "not in the child's best interests"...

If anyone openly admitting to non-Easter Bunnyism lacked even the smallest chance of being elected to any public office much above the position of dogcatcher...

If those disbelieving in the Easter Bunny were determined in public opinion polls to be almost as untrusted as rapists...

If teenagers admitting to their parents that they were not Easter Bunnyists faced the very real risk of being kicked out of their own homes, even if they had not yet reached the age of majority...

If the well-funded Easter Bunny majority was constantly trying to inject Easter Bunnyism into public education disguised as "science", while simultaneously working just as hard to have real science excluded from the curriculum...

If all that, and far, far more, were true...

...then we'd be spending a lot of time talking about the Easter Bunny as well.

If belief in god(s) had no impact on society then you would be correct, there would be no point in debating the matter (although bear in mind in such debates it is for the theist to prove their point rather than for the atheist to disprove anything).

However, belief in god(s) does impact on society through the attitudes of believers, particularly if they are in positions of power. That can be direct impacts such as anti-abortion legislation or indirect impacts arising from the fact that true believers are either genuinely stupid or have such a distorted view of reality that they make stupid decisions. I understand, for example, that the Republican hopeful presidential candidate Mitt Romney is a mormon. It requires only the briefest glance at the history of mormonism for a rational, non-stupid person to determine that mormonism is utter twaddle. Yet there is a distinct possibilty that Romney who is demonstrably either irrational or stupid (or even both) becoming one of the most powerful people on this planet.

I think that waiting until I'm dead to make any determination on the matter might, given the circumstances, result in an altogether shorter wait than I would wish :-(

So instead I'll point out the bunkum when I see it and debate when the opportunity arises. If enough of us do it for long enough we might reach that happy state where theism is entirely excluded from the public and political realm.

So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real. I know how we can find out for sure. Once we die we will know. Its as simply as that. So why do we waste our time trying to disprove God, theres always going to be those who believe in God and those who don't and once we die, we will find out. So good luck to everyone.

the usual Christian attempt to beg non-Christians from showing how ludicrous their religion is. "Please please don't "waste" time talking about how ridiculous we are! We don't want to hear it!"

I just wanted to state that there was a time that I did not believe in the Easter Bunny. That was until He performed a Miracle in my home.

Nearly two years ago, my then 3-year old daughter and I engaged in a secular egg coloring to celebrate the colors of spring. One night, I hid the eggs (along with some chocolates) and my 3 year old woke up in the morning and searched for the eggs and chocolate.

Although we had colored a full dozen eggs, my daughter only found 11. I helped her search for the last one, but we could not find it. I searched on my own, and still could not find it. Days passed, and I waited for the unpleasant smell of an unrefrigerated egg to start plaguing some corner of our small urban apartment. Then weeks. The egg did not make itself known. Nearly two years have passed, and I have never found that egg.

There is no other explanation. The Easter Bunny knew that I doubted Him, and in order to save my soul, He came to my home and stole one of the eggs!

Since accepting the Easter Bunny as my personal savior, I know that He has intervened on my behalf multiple times. I fell, and didn’t get hurt! My daughter has learned to READ! I picked a line in the supermarket, and although it looked longer than the line next to me, I was finished checking out before the people in the adjacent line! I found the cutest Tommy Hilfiger outfit for my little girl, and it was 80% off!!!! How could these things have happened if there were no Easter Bunny?

But those are not the only events that shaped my faith.

When I accepted the Easter Bunny into my heart, He rewarded me by making the days longer! Seriously. Shortly after the missing egg incident, I noticed that the hours of sunlight exceeded the hours of darkness EVERY DAY! This went on and on, until the days were so long, and it got so hot, that I prayed for nightfall to cool us down. And my prayers were answered. The hot summer night started getting just a little bit longer, and then a little bit longer than that.

There is no other explanation.

For those of you who still doubt, I beg you to just try and accept the Easter Bunny into your hearts.

So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real. I know how we can find out for sure. Once we die we will know. Its as simply as that.

I don't think so, Jake. In order to know something, we must have functioning brains. At death, all brain activity automatically ceases. Rather than everyone coming to know whether or not a god is real, I think it considerably more likely that no one will be capable of believing or disbelieving anything after death.

So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real. I know how we can find out for sure. Once we die we will know. Its as simply as that. So why do we waste our time trying to disprove God, theres always going to be those who believe in God and those who don't and once we die, we will find out. So good luck to everyone.

To set people free from the trappings of religion: a false sense of hope, stunted intellectual growth, and a lack of self-reliance, blind obedience to an old book that has resulted in the committing of countless numbers of atrocities. We have more reasons than that we just think that theism is silly or that we want other people to agree with us.

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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

I can't agree that it's wasting time. If I were revolving my life around something that weren't true I'd certainly want someone to pinch me and wake me up from my trance. Think of it as community service.

So Jake, a lot of people have gone to the trouble of answering your question. Are you going to do them the courtesy of responding or was this a typical cowardly theist drive-by trolling? I would hate to think it was that.

For some reason I read that as "To set people free from the trampoline of religion" and I almost converted on the spot because it sounded fun!

I'm glad I read it again, and figured out what you actually said. What a letdown that would have been.

Back to the OP. As a non-fan of the "jesus loves you or else" school of thoughtlessness, I feel it is my duty as a human being to refrain from doing stupid stuff that hurts others. That automatically makes me ineligible to be a believer. And I feel it is only appropriate that I mention this as often as I can. This is one of the places I do that.

I assume the original poster is long gone, but maybe someone else who needs to know this will read the thread and have one less question about us.

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

So Jake, a lot of people have gone to the trouble of answering your question. Are you going to do them the courtesy of responding or was this a typical cowardly theist drive-by trolling? I would hate to think it was that.

My apologies, I was very busy recently with college work and such. I understand some of what some of you say but for example:

So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real. I know how we can find out for sure. Once we die we will know. Its as simply as that. So why do we waste our time trying to disprove God, theres always going to be those who believe in God and those who don't and once we die, we will find out. So good luck to everyone.

To set people free from the trappings of religion: a false sense of hope, stunted intellectual growth, and a lack of self-reliance, blind obedience to an old book that has resulted in the committing of countless numbers of atrocities. We have more reasons than that we just think that theism is silly or that we want other people to agree with us.

It sounds like you say people are "trapped" by religion. I don't know about all religions but i've known people (Seventh-Day Adventists) who do not feel trapped but feel free. What about all the good religion has accomplished. There are hospitals built by religious organizations and many go to other countries and help people as well as the nicest people i've ever meant were Christians (not that non-Christians are not nice). That is just my experience. Now with the atrocities committed. Roman Catholics have killed so many innocent people it is despicable and they did it in the name of God. However they were obviously wrong. Jesus never taught that religion should be forced on anyone. I understand that you want other people to agree with you. Just like theists they want other people to agree with them and they believe that they are right. This brings us to a stalemate it seems: We must find the truth, a truth so convincing it would make the theists or atheists believe.

So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real. I know how we can find out for sure. Once we die we will know. Its as simply as that. So why do we waste our time trying to disprove God, theres always going to be those who believe in God and those who don't and once we die, we will find out. So good luck to everyone.

the usual Christian attempt to beg non-Christians from showing how ludicrous their religion is. "Please please don't "waste" time talking about how ridiculous we are! We don't want to hear it!"

Excuse me sir but I have not begged for you to stop, if i wanted not to hear your point of view I wouldn't be here. I am interested to see what you think. But thanks for the kind sentiment. I'll be sure to extent a few to you if you wish.

Jetson, I understand that and that is a perfect reason why people are diverse and different. For a long time I did not follow anyway but the way of my own pleasures and desires and for a while I like it but then things got worse and eventually I was miserable. It was only until I came back to God that I have never felt better and more happy and more free. Understand I'm not trying to tell you my way is better. I'm just telling you how I felt. I'm happy for you that you can be happy by yourself, but not everyone can and if people need God then so be it. We shouldn't tear people down because of what they do or do not believe but we should build each other up.

Jetson, I understand that and that is a perfect reason why people are diverse and different. For a long time I did not follow anyway but the way of my own pleasures and desires and for a while I like it but then things got worse and eventually I was miserable. It was only until I came back to God that I have never felt better and more happy and more free. Understand I'm not trying to tell you my way is better. I'm just telling you how I felt. I'm happy for you that you can be happy by yourself, but not everyone can and if people need God then so be it. We shouldn't tear people down because of what they do or do not believe but we should build each other up.

That would be fine if religious people were not interfering with my health care plan.

Jetson, I understand that and that is a perfect reason why people are diverse and different. For a long time I did not follow anyway but the way of my own pleasures and desires and for a while I like it but then things got worse and eventually I was miserable. It was only until I came back to God that I have never felt better and more happy and more free. Understand I'm not trying to tell you my way is better. I'm just telling you how I felt. I'm happy for you that you can be happy by yourself, but not everyone can and if people need God then so be it. We shouldn't tear people down because of what they do or do not believe but we should build each other up.

I agree, to a point. And based on what you're saying, you might also agree with me that as long as people are happy, and they don't take steps to interfere with other's equal rights, and individual freedoms, I'm OK with whatever people want to believe. If one can be good and happy without God, then good for them I say. And if a person really needs God to be in their life, then they should be free to do so.

I say we blame all of our troubles on the Swiss. Bastards, living up in their mountains, and laughing at all of us while they live in peace and harmony.

So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real. I know how we can find out for sure. Once we die we will know. Its as simply as that. So why do we waste our time trying to disprove God, theres always going to be those who believe in God and those who don't and once we die, we will find out. So good luck to everyone.

I disagree. It is not a waste of time to talk and discuss about certain mythology that is considered a FACT by a bunch of religious people.Had I not find this forum, I will always feel like I'm a freak who's lost. Everyone around me, my parents, relatives, friends & all the people I knew back then were religious people. So it is commonly assumed that having religion is the normal way of life. Ever since I decided to break free from such tradition, I always thought " I can't be the only one who feel or think this way ".Luckily, my curiousity paid off. I browsed the internet for days trying to find more info about people not believing in any religion, and finally I stumbled on this forum. My way of thinking has changed dramatically since then, even this community helped me find other similar community in my own country that I doubt I can find by myself, because even questioning religion is considered blasphemy and is punishable by law in my country.

See my thread about an atheist in Indonesia who got beat up and arrested for claiming that " God doesn't exist ", you'll see how extremely religious my country of origin is.

Your comment isn't negative in any way, but it is also not productive since you're basically stating not to do anything about debating or confronting religious people.

I'm just one person, but I'm pretty sure this forum has helped many people to promote rational and critical thinking, that can only be beneficial in the long run. Living life with constant learning attitude is always a positive thing. The same can't be said to delusional religious people who think that they already have all the answers.

Also, how do you know that if we die then we will know for sure ? What made you to make such claim ?

It sounds like you say people are "trapped" by religion. I don't know about all religions but i've known people (Seventh-Day Adventists) who do not feel trapped but feel free. What about all the good religion has accomplished. There are hospitals built by religious organizations and many go to other countries and help people as well as the nicest people i've ever meant were Christians (not that non-Christians are not nice). That is just my experience. Now with the atrocities committed. Roman Catholics have killed so many innocent people it is despicable and they did it in the name of God. However they were obviously wrong. Jesus never taught that religion should be forced on anyone. I understand that you want other people to agree with you. Just like theists they want other people to agree with them and they believe that they are right. This brings us to a stalemate it seems: We must find the truth, a truth so convincing it would make the theists or atheists believe.

And your version of Chritianity, and all others version and religions have failed for the last several millennia. Seventh Day Adventism is no more “right” than Roman Catholicism, and it’s rather cute to see that you can declare that they are “obviously wrong” with no evidence they are any more wrong than you. Jesus taught that those who would not accept him as “king” should be brought before him and killed (Luke 19), so that certainly seems to bely your claim otherwise.

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And as for this:Excuse me sir but I have not begged for you to stop, if i wanted not to hear your point of view I wouldn't be here. I am interested to see what you think. But thanks for the kind sentiment. I'll be sure to extent a few to you if you wish.

I’m not a “sir”. Pay attention for a moment, and you’d know that. You’ve claimed that showing your religion to be ridiculous to be a “waste of time”. Lots of Christians say that and yes, they do mean that they are trying to stop people from discussing their nonsense by making the false, quite ignorant, and perjorative claim that it is a “waste of time”. Why else would anyone try to dissuade someone from discussing a subject in such a blatant way? Since you’ve been shown it’s not a “waste of time”, what is your opinion of the reasons we don’t find it a “waste of time”? Do you agree with them or would you try to find another excuse on why we should not discuss religion?

Your intial post seems to be based on Pascal’s Wager, the delusion that it’s better to believe than not to, in the assumption that you’ve got the right god. Since you cannot be sure of that, and there is no evidence for your god or any other, belief in such things is a waste of effort and more importantly resources e.g. the churches built, the pastor’s wages for repeating lies, etc.

It also amuses me that so many Christians claim to have been so "bad" before and that they are all good now. It makes a great story doesn't it? I was a Christian and was a decent person before, during and afer, so it seems religion makes no difference.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

It also amuses me that so many Christians claim to have been so "bad" before and that they are all good now. It makes a great story doesn't it? I was a Christian and was a decent person before, during and afer, so it seems religion makes no difference.

Preach on, brutha!! I mean, er, sistah!!

I find that I live a life that is comparable to what I lived as a Roman Catholic. The big differnece is that then, I worried about "sin" and it ate away at my gut, whereas now I worry about "making the world a better place" and it makes my gut feel nice. As Peter Gabriel sang in In The Cage, "I"ve got sunshine in my stomach . . ."

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...religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash...anyone who doesn't show...deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

~Astreja

To not believe in god is to know that it falls to us to make the world a better place.

It sounds like you say people are "trapped" by religion. I don't know about all religions but i've known people (Seventh-Day Adventists) who do not feel trapped but feel free. What about all the good religion has accomplished. There are hospitals built by religious organizations and many go to other countries and help people as well as the nicest people i've ever meant were Christians (not that non-Christians are not nice). That is just my experience. Now with the atrocities committed. Roman Catholics have killed so many innocent people it is despicable and they did it in the name of God. However they were obviously wrong. Jesus never taught that religion should be forced on anyone. I understand that you want other people to agree with you. Just like theists they want other people to agree with them and they believe that they are right. This brings us to a stalemate it seems: We must find the truth, a truth so convincing it would make the theists or atheists believe.

Just because they do not "feel" trapped does not mean that they are not. It has been my experience that Christians will believe almost anything, feel comfortable being oppressed and having their lives controlled by church leaders, often an individual dictator-like church leader, and will do almost anything once they are convinced that it is "God's will." That is a recipe for the exact kinds of atrocities that have been committed in the past (and continue to be committed in certain fringe groups). Whether Jesus, if he existed, taught it or not, it happened, and history shows that it has a tendency to happen again and again and again.

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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Jesus taught that those who would not accept him as “king” should be brought before him and killed (Luke 19), so that certainly seems to bely your claim otherwise.

Actually Jesus did not say that they should be brought before HIM. It was a parable it was the man of noble birth who wanted the servant to be killed in front of him. In second Peter it says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting ANYONE to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9 NIV) He does not want anyone to die so he surely does not want anyone to be killed in front of him.

I’m not a “sir”. Pay attention for a moment, and you’d know that. You’ve claimed that showing your religion to be ridiculous to be a “waste of time”. Lots of Christians say that and yes, they do mean that they are trying to stop people from discussing their nonsense by making the false, quite ignorant, and perjorative claim that it is a “waste of time”. Why else would anyone try to dissuade someone from discussing a subject in such a blatant way? Since you’ve been shown it’s not a “waste of time”, what is your opinion of the reasons we don’t find it a “waste of time”? Do you agree with them or would you try to find another excuse on why we should not discuss religion?

Your intial post seems to be based on Pascal’s Wager, the delusion that it’s better to believe than not to, in the assumption that you’ve got the right god. Since you cannot be sure of that, and there is no evidence for your god or any other, belief in such things is a waste of effort and more importantly resources e.g. the churches built, the pastor’s wages for repeating lies, etc.

It also amuses me that so many Christians claim to have been so "bad" before and that they are all good now. It makes a great story doesn't it? I was a Christian and was a decent person before, during and afer, so it seems religion makes no difference.

Sorry I didn't realize velkyn was a girls name. But I don't care if you discuss this, I just posted that to see why people would discuss this, not to want them to stop, if i wanted them to stop I wouldn't be here. Its not like im being force to be on this site. And if you say you were a Christian and now your still a decent person, if you don't believe according to God your not a decent person but a wicked person. I'm just saying that I was bad, meaning I transgressed God's law, and now I don't transgress God's law very often, but if I do, I have an advocate in Christ Jesus. Not that I can keep on sinning just because of Jesus but if i'm truly sorry, and when I sin I am truly sorry. The sin I once loved I now HATE. But sometimes I still sin because essentially I can't control myself. I dislike that I can't control myself it makes me angry, but God knows how I'm just a weak human who is prone to do these things, hence that is why Jesus died.

^^^Oh please. That is one of the worst things about religion. Always having to apologize and grovel for being a normal human being. What a sick, dysfunctional way to think about yourself. Stand up and be proud to be who you are, dammit!

We are as god made us, so why is it our fault that we can't follow all his stupid rules? Why does god make rules that nobody can follow, and then punish everyone for not obeying? God is like a mafia don--you screw up, you have to be nice to his son or he'll smoke you. Beg his forgiveness, kiss his ring, kiss his a$$. WTF?

Does that sound like someone with all the wisdom of the ancients? Does that sound like someone powerful enough to create the entire universe? Does that sound like someone loving and kind beyond measure?

Or does that sound like a petty a$$hole dictator who wants to control people when he is not around? Like the worst kind of psychotic abusive parent, or a jealous, twisted, violent boyfriend.

I see people calling jakec47 'Jake' and I have a moment of going "I didn't say that drivel!"

So, jakec47, I must challenge you to a duel to erase your repugnant association with my good name (Jake™) from the face of the galaxy.

It is a matter of honor, you see. If you do not comply with what my honor demands, I will petition the forum administration to forcibly change your name to something more suitable and in no way associated with me. My honor demands this as, per its tenets, you are wicked and shameful to have associated yourself with my name, my identity on this public forum, and repugnantly represented positions of ignorance and foolishness.

It cannot be tolerated. It will not be tolerated. As the challenged party, you may choose, per my honor's mandates, the sword or the lance. Deny either and your entire village, as with yourself, shall forefeit your lands, holdings and titles followed thereafter by your lives.

...And I bet, right about now, you're pretty sure I'm not serious, yeah? Well, guess what; I am not insofar as the part about your village goes, but just to show you what it feels like to be arbitrarily determined to be wicked based on someone else's opinion, I am, in fact, going to petition HAL to change your forum name.

I might get rejected on the petition. I promise I'll be extremely persuasive though. It'll definitely be a matter for HAL to consider based on whether or not he wants to deal with you crying about it or not more than whether or not I've got a case.

It's a matter of honor, you see. Without honor there is no pride; without pride, no civility; without civility, no civilization; without civilization, we are naught but filthy barbarians.

It really doesn't matter what you think contrary though, so don't even bother arguing about it. You are a wicked individual per the tenets of my code of honor.

Now, of course, if you should like to be instructed in my code of honor and forswear yourself to both its obligations as with its defense throughout the whole of the civilized world and France, I would be more than happy to overlook this transgression in recognition of your commitment to rectifying the ignorance that brought you to this heinous offense.

If not, expect there to be no end to my methods of pursuit for your name to be changed. I swore to uphold this code and there shall be no exceptions for the midden-dwelling dogs that relieve of their urine upon it.

I shall give you 24 hours to decide upon which course of action you shall elect to, which shall, by its nature, determine my own.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 12:37:04 AM by Jake »

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"I don't respect your religious beliefs and I don't care if this offends you." - Pat Condel and myself along with him. I do respect intelligence, rationality and logical consideration, however. Humor's always good too.