Anyway, come join us online for a couple matches! I just had a great time with Starshifter (and Starshifter's kids), VegasD and Devil.

Stupid question: how do I find you guys on xbox live? I'm new to all the xbox live stuff. My GT is Roguekain.

Regarding the AI difficulty, Itagaki is a sadastic SOB. The way he punishes losing or playing crappy just reinforces this. I never played the expansion or new NG version, but I'm sure I would've been bumped down to the humilating difficulty level he created for that version. If I remember correctly, my gameplay prowess earned me the title of ninja dog for most of the levels in NG (and I thought I was kicking ass and taking names lol).

No one can say that I'm not giving this game a fair chance. I just played several characters in Story Mode. The farthest I advanced was to the 5th opponent and a couple of my fighters couldn't get past the first opponent, no matter how many times I retried the battles!

One thing I have noticed is that the AI will get increasingly cheap if you are doing well in a match. If you have half your life left and the AI is down to a sliver, you can pretty much count on the AI countering your next six moves and then laying an 8-hit combo on you. As someone stated above, there is no way on earth that the finest human player could anticipate and counter all 6 moves if you were striking high/low/middle with a variety of kicks/punches and holds!

I am honestly trying to improve -- clearly I'm not the greatest fighter in the world -- on the other hand, I am a veteran gamer with excellent reflexes and this is far from the first fighting game I have tackled.

Here's what I have learned so far from DOA4:

1) It is pointless to try to counter. The AI will immediately read what counter you are inputting and either strike you with the opposite move or begin a devastating hold sequence that usually progesses into a multi-hit combo.

2) Blocking rarely works against the AI. I did have a small amount of success tonight blocking and then striking during the opening, but usually the AI will instantaneously "read" that you blocking (either high or low) and pummel you with the opposite move -- or, again, in the millisecond that this is all happening initiate a hold move that will leave you helpless!

3) It is impossible (in my experience) to put any kind of hold move on the AI. In the hundred or so matches I have played I have not been able to successfully implement a single hold.

4) There is no way (that I have been able to discover) to escape from a combo. If someone can help me with this, I'd be forever in your debt. The worthless manual certainly doesn't help!

5) If the AI gets your character against a wall it is game-over! I have literally started to put my controller on the floor in front of me and wait for my inevitable death when this happens...

6) If you are knocked to the ground, nine times out of ten you will get up in such a way that you will be defenseless and will be quickly pounded by the AI (usually right back to the ground). I have read in the manual that there are many different ways to get up and I have experimented with them extensively -- all I can say is they rarely work as advertised.

7) The second best strategy I have found in this game is all out blitzing offense. Vary up the moves as much as possible but pretty much run right at the AI opponent and punch and kick as quickly as possible (but don't touch the "hold" button!!!) This tactic sometimes will win a match. More often you will do some damage and then the "psychic" AI will take over and counter every single move you make and then begin the unblockable beatdown.

8] The very best strategy I have found and the one that I have read (sadly) far too much of at Gaming Age is to totally cheese out the AI. Choose one specific character and do ONE MOVE over and over and over and over, ad nauseum, as fast as your fingers will allow. Some of these moves are not handled well by the AI and you can sneak out a win here and there.

Those are my observations so far. I really would appreciate specific feedback on these issues -- especially by players who are having more success than me. I'd like to think there is a game in here for the average player to enjoy! Help me to enjoy this game!

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"All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing."

Just to add: One of the greatest weaknesses of this game is that it doesn't -- in any of it's modes -- teach you how to become a better player!

Virtual Fighter is a hard game as well (just saw your mention of it, ML!!) but does not show the complete disdain for newcomers that this game does. VF features a wonderful series of tutorials that walk you through the basics and actually teaches you how to be a more effective player. It also features a mode that matches your opponents to your current skill level. Wonderful, thoughtful inclusions in a game!

Not including any kind of teaching mode and not including a Normal mode (I'm not asking for an Easy mode -- just a true Normal mode), hurts this game's prospects so much! For Team Ninja this goes beyond being "elite" and "hardcore" and ends up being simply foolish!

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"All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing."

Cleric, you're REALLY going to be pissed when you make it to stage 8 with a character that has to fight Alpha-152.

I'll take a stab at responding to the issues you bring up.

Quote from: "Cleric7"

Here's what I have learned so far from DOA4:

1) It is pointless to try to counter. The AI will immediately read what counter you are inputting and either strike you with the opposite move or begin a devastating hold sequence that usually progesses into a multi-hit combo.

I don't agree with this one. If the AI is reacting to your counter then you're probably going too early. Your counter should be in reaction to the AI barrage.

Quote from: "Cleric7"

2) Blocking rarely works against the AI. I did have a small amount of success tonight blocking and then striking during the opening, but usually the AI will instantaneously "read" that you blocking (either high or low) and pummel you with the opposite move -- or, again, in the millisecond that this is all happening initiate a hold move that will leave you helpless!

I agree with this one. I seldom try blocking against the AI.

Quote from: "Cleric7"

3) It is impossible (in my experience) to put any kind of hold move on the AI. In the hundred or so matches I have played I have not been able to successfully implement a single hold.

I pretty much agree here as well. While I don't find it completely impossible, trying to hold usually ends up being a request to get combo'd. It sucks because I think the DOA games have always had some of the best throws in a fighting game, but you seldom get to see/use them. What I've never understood is why you can't throw a stunned opponent.

Quote from: "Cleric7"

4) There is no way (that I have been able to discover) to escape from a combo. If someone can help me with this, I'd be forever in your debt. The worthless manual certainly doesn't help!

If you're in the air being juggled, there's nothing you can do. If your feet are still on the ground, you can counter.

Quote from: "Cleric7"

5) If the AI gets your character against a wall it is game-over! I have literally started to put my controller on the floor in front of me and wait for my inevitable death when this happens...

After the second time you've been slammed to the wall, I think you can come up kicking.

Quote from: "Cleric7"

6) If you are knocked to the ground, nine times out of ten you will get up in such a way that you will be defenseless and will be quickly pounded by the AI (usually right back to the ground). I have read in the manual that there are many different ways to get up and I have experimented with them extensively -- all I can say is they rarely work as advertised.

I typically come up kicking using Up+K, K, or Down+K. There are times, however, where the AI will counter you.

Quote from: "Cleric7"

7) The second best strategy I have found in this game is all out blitzing offense. Vary up the moves as much as possible but pretty much run right at the AI opponent and punch and kick as quickly as possible (but don't touch the "hold" button!!!) This tactic sometimes will win a match. More often you will do some damage and then the "psychic" AI will take over and counter every single move you make and then begin the unblockable beatdown.

I can't disagree too much here. I typically cycle through combos and mix in a few single moves.

Quote from: "Cleric7"

8] The very best strategy I have found and the one that I have read (sadly) far too much of at Gaming Age is to totally cheese out the AI. Choose one specific character and do ONE MOVE over and over and over and over, ad nauseum, as fast as your fingers will allow. Some of these moves are not handled well by the AI and you can sneak out a win here and there.

This typically how I deal with Alpha-152. I just use the character's lunge attack over and over. I haven't really tried it against the other characters.

I earned my 10 hours played and you-suck-online achievements tonight. This game is clearly not for me. I do like playing against people much more than fighting the cheap AI though. I tried time battle tonight and was reminded again how lame the AI is with the mind-reading counters. And freaking alpha-152 is just the lamest, cheapest fighting game boss I've ever had to fight. This game would have been a blast if they ramped up the difficulty some, but I know that's not Team Ninja's MO.

I watched a lot of fights tonight online, and I can count the # of counters I saw executed successfully on one hand. Yet the normal AI during my experience playing time attack tonight countered at least 4-5 times a match starting at stage 4 or so. I was even countered on my very first attack a few times! That's cheap. The AI juggling combo crap is just annoying as hell too. I didn't fight a single human player tonight that could routinely pull off 8 hit combos like the normal AI can.

I know team ninja is all about making their games a right of passage, but for me, it's not worth the frustration. I have too many other good 360 and pc games that I'd like to play. This one is going back for some store credit.

Fighting one of my friends is a lot like fighting the AI at times. She can pull counters all over the place. Personally I can usually rack up 5 and 6 hit combo's fairly regularly. She has problems with juggling, I have problems with counters... which is why I can still beat her on occasion.

The game is hard, no doubt about it. I really can't understand why you would not include an easier difficulty, unless you really don't intend to grow your player base beyond those who already love the series.

It also seems that they focused on the online much more than the offline play. They took out the tag battle offline. Now the only way to play co-op with a friend is in vs. and that's not quite the same. They also only have 3 arenas for tag battle. The game doesn't track your stats vs. the computer, only vs. another gamertag. There doesn't appear to be a way to see what items you've collected in survival, even though collecting all the items is an achievement. For some reason there isn't a unified score board for offline. Each profile has its own scoreboard... which again doesn't make much sense to me.

At any rate as a long time fan of the series I'm still enjoying the game. I do wish they'd made some different design decisions though. I'm not sure that I would be having as much fun if I was new to the series.

I do have to say that as annoying as alpha-152 is... the boss in Tekken 5 is much much cheaper.

Question... granting all of the issues with AI difficulty, how highly do you reccomend it on the basis of using it primarily for human vs human games?

Very, very highly. It is an awesome game for playing against another person either at home or online. It's the most fun I have ever had with a fighting game oniline or offline. Yes, the AI can make you want to rip your hair out sometimes....but the online vs play is GREAT! You can set up tournaments or a ton other game modes online. It also has full stat tracking and all that good stuff.

7) The second best strategy I have found in this game is all out blitzing offense. Vary up the moves as much as possible but pretty much run right at the AI opponent and punch and kick as quickly as possible (but don't touch the "hold" button!!!) This tactic sometimes will win a match. More often you will do some damage and then the "psychic" AI will take over and counter every single move you make and then begin the unblockable beatdown.

I can't disagree too much here. I typically cycle through combos and mix in a few single moves.

Quote from: "Cleric7"

8] The very best strategy I have found and the one that I have read (sadly) far too much of at Gaming Age is to totally cheese out the AI. Choose one specific character and do ONE MOVE over and over and over and over, ad nauseum, as fast as your fingers will allow. Some of these moves are not handled well by the AI and you can sneak out a win here and there.

This typically how I deal with Alpha-152. I just use the character's lunge attack over and over. I haven't really tried it against the other characters.

Okay, let me ask this as an outsider who will never get the game (as I've always hated games like this where mindless offense tends to let you win) - why is this game programmed this way? Why is it so stupidly hard? WHY are you allowing the elitest bastard of a game dev pull you around by the nose via a game that's just more frustration than fun?

This is why I still call VF4:EVO the best fighter of this generation. The AI doesn't cheat, doesn't do more damage than you could playing the same character, and there's not only a highly detailed training mode, but a mode where the game throws AI 'players' who are roughly your skill level at you over and over again so you can continue to learn and improve your game.

What sense does this game make again exactly? Is it the bouncing boobies? That's the only thing I can think of at this point.

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"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

7) The second best strategy I have found in this game is all out blitzing offense. Vary up the moves as much as possible but pretty much run right at the AI opponent and punch and kick as quickly as possible (but don't touch the "hold" button!!!) This tactic sometimes will win a match. More often you will do some damage and then the "psychic" AI will take over and counter every single move you make and then begin the unblockable beatdown.

I can't disagree too much here. I typically cycle through combos and mix in a few single moves.

Quote from: "Cleric7"

8] The very best strategy I have found and the one that I have read (sadly) far too much of at Gaming Age is to totally cheese out the AI. Choose one specific character and do ONE MOVE over and over and over and over, ad nauseum, as fast as your fingers will allow. Some of these moves are not handled well by the AI and you can sneak out a win here and there.

This typically how I deal with Alpha-152. I just use the character's lunge attack over and over. I haven't really tried it against the other characters.

Okay, let me ask this as an outsider who will never get the game (as I've always hated games like this where mindless offense tends to let you win) - why is this game programmed this way? Why is it so stupidly hard? WHY are you allowing the elitest bastard of a game dev pull you around by the nose via a game that's just more frustration than fun?

This is why I still call VF4:EVO the best fighter of this generation. The AI doesn't cheat, doesn't do more damage than you could playing the same character, and there's not only a highly detailed training mode, but a mode where the game throws AI 'players' who are roughly your skill level at you over and over again so you can continue to learn and improve your game.

What sense does this game make again exactly? Is it the bouncing boobies? That's the only thing I can think of at this point.

Excellent questions, Destructor. For me the answer has two parts:

One, the excellent online mode.

Two, the (perhaps misguided) belief that the offline game can't possibly be as bad as it first appears. I mean people like Hetz have made good progress so it's clearly not impossible to beat the Normal AI.

It's certainly a pride thing too. I want to do better, I want to see if I can get a little bit better day-by-day, hour after hour!

Your points about VF4:EVO are all excellent and really show the poor design of some aspects of this game. I'm tempted to reacquire that game, but for now I'll keep trying with Dead or Alive and keep it for the online battles if nothing else.

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"All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing."

Okay, let me ask this as an outsider who will never get the game (as I've always hated games like this where mindless offense tends to let you win) - why is this game programmed this way? Why is it so stupidly hard? WHY are you allowing the elitest bastard of a game dev pull you around by the nose via a game that's just more frustration than fun?

This is why I still call VF4:EVO the best fighter of this generation. The AI doesn't cheat, doesn't do more damage than you could playing the same character, and there's not only a highly detailed training mode, but a mode where the game throws AI 'players' who are roughly your skill level at you over and over again so you can continue to learn and improve your game.

What sense does this game make again exactly? Is it the bouncing boobies? That's the only thing I can think of at this point.

I prefer to think of it as focused aggression rather than mindless offense. I can't speak to why the game is this way, but I can answer why I let the dev pull me around by the nose. I've been a DOA fan since DOA2 on the Dreamcast. I'm a sheep... when a new DOA comes out, I buy it. Back then, however, there was an Easy and Very Easy mode. I have no idea why these are gone.

The only VF I've played was VF4 and I didn't really like it, but I agree that it's training modes were very very cool and I think other fighting game devs would do well to rip it off.

Your points about VF4:EVO are all excellent and really show the poor design of some aspects of this game. I'm tempted to reacquire that game, but for now I'll keep trying with Dead or Alive and keep it for the online battles if nothing else.

Remember - VF4:EVO was only $20 new, too. Cheaper used if you dig around.

Quote from: "Loomi"

I prefer to think of it as focused aggression rather than mindless offense.

And I love that line for some reason or another.

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"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

Will do Hank. Last night was a lot of fun, we should also try tournaments and tag matches. I played a few tournament matches with random groups and had a blast, and I actually got my 10win and 5win achievements unlocked.

I think I finally hurdled part of the learning curve today. I'm not sure if this is decent, but I managed to get to 27 in survival without going down. That felt pretty good. I also went 15-6 against the AI in versus mode today. Not sure what changed, but things just seemed to click. I did win 1 online match today, but the lag has been awful in pickup matches. It's like trying to fight watching a slideshow. It's been like that for me since lastnight.

I got to alpha 152 in about 7 minutes in time attack, and then spent another 10 minutes fighter her lol. Her grab moves are crazy.

27 in survival is better than I've managed to do yet! Survival mode seems to scale the AI based on a combination of points and number of opponents defeated. Since I tend to favor characters who slam foes repeatedly into the walls.... I end up fighting the higher AI very quickly. It's rare that I get more than 8 KO's.

Glad to hear that you are getting it figured out. The 'click' was something that Ninja Gaiden had as well. After a few hours into it, everything just fell into place and I really started having fun.

Well, for playing amongst friends, I definitely think tournaments are the way to go. Reason being that it's easier to increase the total number of grade points in the room because of the tournament prize. So, for example, you and one friend just want to play. If you play Winner Stays, you basically just trade grade points back and forth and only ever add points when you get on a streak(this is assuming the number of points lost for handicap equals the number of points gained). If you play a 2 player tournament, there's a 40GP prize so every match adds to the total combined points you and your friend have.

Am I just missing it or is there no friends' leaderboard in this game?

You took the words right out of my mouth. I sat down with the game this evening, chose a new character -- Jann Lee -- and proceeded to scorch right through Story Mode!! I cannot believe it, I really can't!

I just seemed to be seeing things better during fights. I pulled off some counters, blocked effectively (at times) and even did a couple of holds!! When I got to the endboss she certainly gave me some trouble, but I just kind of kept my sense of humour about it and calmly tried again and again, really paying attention to what was working and what was not! After about 20 tries I took her down, let out a huge "WHOOOOP" and just sat there stunned as I watched Jann Lee's end movie (very cool, btw)!!

I don't know what the hell made the difference tonight??? Maybe Jann Lee's kicking action is better suited to a newbie? I don't know. Very happy and relieved to sense a bit of progress though!!

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"All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing."

You took the words right out of my mouth. I sat down with the game this evening, chose a new character -- Jann Lee -- and proceeded to scorch right through Story Mode!! I cannot believe it, I really can't!

I just seemed to be seeing things better during fights. I pulled off some counters, blocked effectively (at times) and even did a couple of holds!! When I got to the endboss she certainly gave me some trouble, but I just kind of kept my sense of humour about it and calmly tried again and again, really paying attention to what was working and what was not! After about 20 tries I took her down, let out a huge "WHOOOOP" and just sat there stunned as I watched Jann Lee's end movie (very cool, btw)!!

I don't know what the hell made the difference tonight??? Maybe Jann Lee's kicking action is better suited to a newbie? I don't know. Very happy and relieved to sense a bit of progress though!!

I don't know what the hell made the difference tonight??? Maybe Jann Lee's kicking action is better suited to a newbie? I don't know. Very happy and relieved to sense a bit of progress though!!

There are some characters that I definitely fnid easier as a button masher. Jann Lee is one of them, anyone with super fast attacks is easier I think. The wrestlers take a little more thoughtful approach.

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It was this moment that took the movie from being a little ho-hum to “holy shit, did that shark just eat a plane!?”

So what's the general consensus on this game? DOA2/3 both had a big 'wow this is awesome' factor when you first started playing, but got old very quickly. It sounds like the fighting mechanic changes they made to DOA4 make it a little deeper, but is this still a game you guys see yourself playing for a while?

Kasumi:Selecting a costume with X or Y puts her hair into a ponytail. One is higher on the head than the other and one has a ribbon as well.

Lei Fang:Selecting a costume with X puts her hair up.

As for replayability, personally, I never play any fighting game(or any non-MMO actually) for very long. Once I unlock all the costumes, I'll probably only play DOA4 when I have some friends over. This could change though if there are GT folk playing.

After unlocking Helena, you battle Jan Lee in a boxing/wrestling styled ring and the electronic sign going around the arena is scrolling by with: Station 51 KMG-365!!!

This is no lie! It is actually there! Someone at Team Ninja is an Emergency! fan - like me!!!

Honest, I'm telling the truth! Watch for it!

Cool! Very Happy

I freaked out for a second, too, when I saw "Nothin' up m'sleeve!" go scrolling by, but then I realized the spelling was a little too odd (had to do it a certain way to fit) and that it was showing me what I'd typed...

I just watched DOA4 on a local console store display. Wow, I want to buy XBOX360 now, it cost around $500 here and plus the game it'll about $560.

Buying XBOX360 in Indonesia is probably stupid at this time since if I got a faulty one, it is going to be very hard to exchange it. Local store here don't give warranty on imported console machine and sending it back to Microsoft for repair is going to be a big problem.

I'm glad I didn't have money and my credit card are currently maxxed out when I visited the store. I would probably take XBOX360 and DOA4 home if I have any way to pay for it.

Whatâ€™s the deal with the online lag? Could it be from using the wireless connection? Every other game Iâ€™ve played on xbox live doesnâ€™t seem to have lag, but then again maybe theyâ€™re not pushing as much data as quickly as DAO4. My online fights are so much slower, with lag hiccups spattered throughout the fight. I havenâ€™t tried hosting a match, so maybe that would help.

I did manage to win a few last night, but itâ€™s tough with the lag hiccups.

Ok, so I'm a little late to the party. I'm having fun with this one, but struggling to understand the counter/hold mechanic. I mean..sometimes I can block and counter, but most times I can't. It's satisfying when it happens and frustrating when it doesn't. I've managed to get 10 wins in Survival, and consider that an accomplishment, since most times by 6 or 7, I'm KO'd.

I've gone online against random folks (C rank or lower), and even there, I've only managed to squeak out 1 win in 10 matches. In the other 9 matches, I've won maybe two rounds total. Usually, I get completely owned and barely scratch the other guy. I'm mixing up my high/low attacks, but I don't have a sense of a good sequence of moves that will keep the other guy reeling for a good multiple-hit beatdown.

And then I also think there are a good number of people who have reset their rankings and are clearly way better players than their letter rank would indicate. I played against 1 guy who had a total of 4 matches online, but would either block or counter at least 3/4 of the stuff directed at him. And not just against me, but against the other players in the room too.

Gamefaqs was of limited help. I guess this is just a practice thing.

I'm finding the game fun (I enjoyed DOA3 quite a bit), but want to be better than I am. I still haven't found a character that I feel good at, or that really fits my style. On the other hand, it's pretty clear which characters I completely suck at.

Honestly Don, DOA4 kills a lot of the friendly easy to pick up and play fun that DOA3 was really good for. The changes made to the countering system combined with the increase in game speed really do make the game more difficult for people who don't spend hours mastering a game.

I love the game. I do. But I don't picture it having much of a life on Live for me simply because I know I won't be competitive. I could have been in DOA2 on the PS2 if it had been online, and DOA3 would've been a blast online if only because anybody could've won due to the game's simplicity.

As it is, I'm content with just unlocking more of the game's goodies.

I miss being able to instantly unlock all the costumes by doing a few things in survival mode though. That was possible in DOA: Ultimate on the Xbox and it made unlocking all the costumes a lot less tedious.