But if somebody makes a thread to talk about a specific "questionable" deal that they got, at what point does it become lockable? Isn't some "moral discussion" expected in such a thread?Fine line I suppose.

I guess this was what I was referring to in my previous post, and I appreciated the response. I guess I still don't fully understand the nature of how this new policy affects other threads.

It seems to me that discussing the moral/ethical issues of deals that fall into the "gray" area is a large part of the whole point of a thread. By excluding discussion of right/wrong, it follows implicitly (especially to the horde of newbies that join every day) that if a thread hasn't been locked then it implies that it is endorsed as "good" by CAG and the CAG community. There are no longer gray areas, only the deals that are posted and nobody discusses any issues with, or the deals that are removed.

Perhaps I am seeing this new policy as more than it really is as was mentioned above, and I understand the need for it with regards to flame wars taking over a thread. So I guess either I am making the policy out to be more than it is or I'm seeing the end result differently than it is actually expected to be.

I think if you can get a discount (like at CC, use a 20 dollar game then a 50 dollar game) than do it. I really doubt that circuit city will notice the loss at all. As for switching tags and such, i think that is stealing and that is bad. But any discount you can get by using there glitch or typo, you should go ahead and do it.

Like that one guy who price matched like 8 HDs at walmart. Thats great for him because that just saved him about a week of work (im guessing he is around 16-19) and walmart will not notice that loss at all.

if you have a problem with a "deal" or you dont think its morally correct, that is a personal decision. If you are pointing this out to another person, you are basically subject to your own criticism. If a store chooses to stand by their word, thats a personal decision made my the manager.

You're completely missing the point: it is illegal, within in the United States, to buy and return items to Wal-mart for a profit (the subject that sparked the fire in that thread) as it is an act of fraud. It's not an opinion, it's not a moral, it's illegal. And regardless of any 'morality' thread, I'm going to call people on it when they cross that line.

It seems to me that discussing the moral/ethical issues of deals that fall into the "gray" area is a large part of the whole point of a thread. By excluding discussion of right/wrong, it follows implicitly (especially to the horde of newbies that join every day) that if a thread hasn't been locked then it implies that it is endorsed as "good" by CAG and the CAG community. There are no longer gray areas, only the deals that are posted and nobody discusses any issues with, or the deals that are removed.

That's quite true, but I disagree. If it were purely black and white, there would be no question about what deals could be posted, and what deals couldn't be.

There are social norms like this - you don't take a dump on the floor of your office; you use a toilet for that. Pretty black and white (though I eagerly await the first "I think I'm a wisecracker" guy to tell me that it's cool).

It's a matter of knowing *beforehand* if something is appropriate or not that constitues black and white. In the case of CAG (and I haven't followed this thread so much, so forgive me if I'm retreading here), the notion is that "bad" deals will be individually closed/stricken from the deal thread, but "good" ones will stay up. That seems black and white, but since there is underlying ambiguity about what is "good" and what is "bad," there are still grey areas. If we accept the black/white dichotomy, then as a corollary, we indict the person starting that thread - if it's that clear, the person is well aware of what is appropriate and what isn't. If we accept post-hoc thread cutting, then it's ambiguous enough that we don't chastise the OP, since we make the assumption that it was a mistake.

OT, I'm so fuckin' glad we don't have a shitneck like electrictroy posting here anymore, because this thread would be fifteen pages longer and that much more tedious.

I'd chime in in agreement with those expressing dismay at this new policy. Basically, restricting moral criticism to this thread implicitly allows questionable if not downright immoral activity to thrive without being challenged.

But you say to me, illegal deals will be taken down. Okay...although while they are up they are not allowed to be challenged, and thus tacitly approved by the community.

What about questionable practices that are on the edge of the law? The people who feel these are just fine and dandy get free reign to talk about these openly as if they are just hunky dory without any challenge while those who have serious problems with said practices are shut in an out-of-the-way generic thread on a different board.

It just seems to me like the new policy is all about giving the benefit of the doubt to anyone who posts any sort of exploit, deceptive scheme, or even outright fraudulent behavior. It reminds me of the "free speech zone" concept at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.

#68
furyk
Captain of the Handheld
CAGiversary! 3124 Posts Joined 10.7 Years Ago

I really don't think we should think of this thread as "we can't express our opinions on shopping morals on questionable threads". I'd like to think of it more as a clubhouse for the moral minority in CAGing.

What this thread really is is a means of keeping flamefests out of deal threads. If deal threads are going to stay open, they don't need to be bogged down with moral debates, which are entirely off topic. They are almost always general philosophies, not specifically related to that deal.

If there is an illegal deal, no one is going to flame you for attacking the OP or some such nonsense... no one cares, because as soon as it is spotted by a mod, the whole thing will be locked and/or deleted, so who cares what posts are in there?

And I personally have had moral objections to some "deals" while I'm perfectly accepting of others. I don't have any more right or obligation to jack those threads into some moral debate because of my sense of morality. Not that I haven't been guilty of it, but I tend to give up pretty quickly. It's not as if you're going to change someone's mind, and frankly, I get annoyed by reading through a bunch of moral debates regardless of which side I'm on.

If people would, at most, throw in a "this deal is immoral in my opinion" and then leave it at that, this wouldn't be an issue. But any post like that will always draw posts from those of the opposite mind, and then those will attract posts of those supporting the original poster, and so on. Post that here, and have a field day.

Where's my moral minority badge? GD I want one. If i can't voice my opinion of some douchebag behavior, I at least want people to know my silent but visual opinion.
Maybe a mushroom with a "I'm better then you" title on its head? :P

Hahahaha, morals. Glad I don't have any. And if I do, they're very loose to say the least. If something will benefit me in any way I'll go for it. I couldn't care less if it hurts someone (selling some uninformed noob a game for way more than it's worth), or a corporation.

Feel free to call me an asshole and a douchebag if you want too. When you haven't got any morals, you usually aren't sensitive to insults either.

Hmm, you may well be a self-serving, amoral <insert suitable name here>, but at least you have managed to demonstrate one virtue in that post: blunt honesty.

Regardless, I'm sure you and the mods discussed it thoroughly, and it is your site. I trust your judgement, and I'm not being sarcastic. I won't post on these types of deals again unless you change your mind on the process.

Yeah, I guess that didn't last very long.Thanks for that great post on Joystiq...what are you 7 years old? Classy.

I'm wondering, did CheapyD talk about how he made the decision to allow his members at his site to post all deals, fraudulent or not? How he now allows his members to come up with ways to scam retailers and post them? How he has made a conscious decision to push all the members who disagree with stealing, lying and fraud into the back corner of the forum where they can be easily ignored? Just curious guys. Posted at 11:49PM on Aug 11th 2006 by fwacce 0 stars

Right, because people willing to take advantage of these things wouldn't be ignoring you in the deal thread.

The fact is WE DO NOT allow members to post fradulent deals. A retailer's error does not equal fraud. The Sears ad contained legitimite deals along with the error...so what are we to do, censor which part of the ad our users can talk about? That is completely ridiculous and nonsensical.

I do not encourage our users to take advantage of these situations which is why they are NEVER featured on the front page, but it simply does not make sense to censor our users in cases like this.

I'm sorry you changed your mind about trusting my judgement, but perhaps a email sent to me would have been a better course of action than posting that falsehood on Joystiq. I can understand that you might be upset and frustrated by the situation, but jeez, that was completely uncalled for.

We'll see. This thread should eliminate all of those problems. You won't have to worry about that discussion ruining those threads anymore. There won't be those few people who ruin the thread, it won't have to be locked, and CAGs won't completely miss out on any deals.

If we don't have to worry about people with "moral" issues, is there anyway that if a mod sees one the might pose a "moral issue" or has one brought to the mods attention, that a mod can edit said post and add a link to this thread in such wording and/or entry (such as bold, underlining, italicizing, and/or all caps) pointing directing to this thread? If this has been mentioned, just disregard this idea.

Though my main concern is about the whole "bait and switch" issue. I know that there are general errors that can and will be made. But if its something such as the SW: Battlefield II "error" that was advertised for two weeks or so in a row, it seems like it could be bait and switch. Honestly, it seems to me that some stores print ads, purely to get you in the store (such as the Sears 360 HD ad as it seems), then pull the old "its a misprint" and then say "but we can sell it to you for the regular 100 bucks". I know that Best Buy was nortorious for bait and switch, though it seems that most people have forgotten about that. So thus they may still do that practice; because people have forgotten about it.

I hope my post makes some sort of sense...

When I was in High School a friend got a 100% on a D.A.R.E. test and they gave him a D.A.R.E. duffel bag. Two years later, a drug dealer that was a friend of ours at the time asked to borrow something to transport 2kg of cocaine in and he handed over his D.A.R.E. bag. He brought it back to him with an oz of weed in it as a thank you.

#75
Trakan
The Vengeful One
Super Moderators 18094 Posts Joined 11.2 Years Ago

If we don't have to worry about people with "moral" issues, is there anyway that if a mod sees one the might pose a "moral issue" or has one brought to the mods attention, that a mod can edit said post and add a link to this thread in such wording and/or entry (such as bold, underlining, italicizing, and/or all caps) pointing directing to this thread? If this has been mentioned, just disregard this idea.

Something like that I'd be really for...heck, I'd be willing to edit my sig to something such as "if you have personal issues with any deal here, go to <link> and post there, so as not to bothering everyone else"

When I was in High School a friend got a 100% on a D.A.R.E. test and they gave him a D.A.R.E. duffel bag. Two years later, a drug dealer that was a friend of ours at the time asked to borrow something to transport 2kg of cocaine in and he handed over his D.A.R.E. bag. He brought it back to him with an oz of weed in it as a thank you.

I don't think most people had a problem with people attempting to go and price match the Sears ad at Sears or elsewhere, more power to them if they did and were able to get the HD, it was certain posters stating they were going to buy them at the low price and then attempt return them at another store for full price which upset people to begin with. That is committing outright fraud which shouldn't be tolerated. Also people bragging about how they took advantage of certain clerks or raised a ruckus to try and get the PM makes some of us ticked off. These people don't realize in the long run they're ruining it for all of us. Target no longer PM's, if people continue to act like a-holes in the stores in an attempt to take advantage of an obvious mistake ad, how long do you think it will be until other stores do the same? All ready Toys R Us has changed their policy regarding returns without a receipt, how soon until the rest follow suit because of people trying to commit fraud in situations like this?

It's great if you went to a couple stores, tried to PM this deal and got 1 or 2 of these HD's for yourself, another CAGer or even to throw one up on ebay. But for those who started a scene to get yours or hoarded as many as you could find just out of simple greed, I hope you're proud of who you are and as the stores continue to tighten their price matching and return policies I hope you don't bitch about it, since you're the cause of it. You aren't doing ANY of us a favor but your greedy little self.

We did have some assclown that PM Walmart for 6 HDD with the title along the lines of "Look what I got bitches" He went on about how ignorant the old lady that let him PM 6 of them. The topic got deleted but I wish it would of just got moved or locked. We need theese threads to point out these dickheads so we won't forget how big of dumbass they are. Also I found his ebay auctions I wanted to warn CAGS not to buy from this fool.

Wouldn't it just be easier to give the offending people a little warning through PM, kind of like a cease and desist? The PC glitch thread got locked and I know of a few CAG's who completely missed out on that, it's the only reason I bring it up.

I know in that glitch thread there was only 2 or 3 vocal people who kept parading around ethics, they ruined the deal for many other CAG's who probably wanted to give the deal a shot.

Yea, I know the discussion went back into the CC ad thread but honestly, most people don't check those unless there is a reason in the title, like 8.96 clearance or something similar.

I like how you point out the "ethics" are what got the thread clossed but nothing about the "I will do anything to save a dollar or two" pricks that were changing price tags and other things. Anyway you dress it fraud is still fraud.

By this logic, every single thread will turn into a flame war on CAG... some people think scanning and printing coupons shouldn't be allowed, some people think PM'ing mispriced ads shouldn't be allowed... the deal thread needs to remain about DEALS, not about how Johnny objects to the deal because he feels it's morally wrong. If you don't have a post pertaining to the deal at end, then you need to not post.

Do you know how obnoxious it is having to wade through 10 pages during EVERY clearance sale because everyone has to throw in their two cents about hoarding? Alot of good information gets lost in the cracks because people feel the need to voice their opinion, and we've already seen dire cases where a thread gets locked and nobody gets in on the deal.

If I have to name one thing I don't like about CAG, it's that every person with the "higher ground" morals feel the need to ruin a thread for others by constantly bashing us over their head with their holier than thou ethics and morals. I'm sick of seeing the same thing occur in every major sale... people talk about hoarding, than ethics and morals, and eventually the thread is 100 pages long when maybe 10 pages are only talking about the deal at hand.

I'm all for Cheapy and the mods finally putting a stop to it.

Roufuss this used to be a non issue on CAG. If you remember back to the past of CAG it would be two or three CAGs posting topics on how to fraud retailers and 4 times as many CAGs shooting the fraud topics down explaining that being a cheapass gamer is not being a fraudulent gamer. The times have changed and a new stance is in order for CAG not to get in legal trouble. I would like to see the fraud stay in the trailer park/fatwallet and keep the cheap deals for us gamers on a budget.

Morals have nothing to do with the issues on hand. Price matching/making stores pay up for misprints is one thing, but knowingly taking advantage of a glitch, fake coupons... is fraud no matter how much sugar you pour on it. CAG is getting a bad rep (not just from the hoarder fwacce posting on Joystiq) for having a bunch of glitchers and false deals.

It is time to make a change and I'm glad that Cheapy and his staff are taking the high road and sending these non-deals off the deal forum and hopefully giving these topics/non-deals a new forum. You could always name anew forum "The Trailer Park" to have all the glitch and other non-deals in.

I have no idea what you'd believe at this point, but I do respect you Cheapy. I thought you have made some good decisions with the site and gaming in general. There are some things you do that I disagree with, but that's true with everyone. The only reason I pressed the issue is because I originally posted that I 'trusted your judgment' in the Sears thread and you quickly moved it here in the corner of the forum. It seems to me that the rule is now that you can't even bring up anything at all except how to exploit a deal without being pushed off somewhere else in the forum. Am I wrong? Please feel free to elaborate.

I'm sure by going over my post history, you know that I do contribute to the site. I have posted many many deals and have stuck up for the CAGs that were lied to by GQD. I just feel very strongly that you need to have both sides presented when posting a deal. Otherwise, things could digress quickly.

I posted on joystiq, not to belittle you, but to call your policy out. I am hoping you will seriously reconsider this issue. I know I'm in the minority here, but the fact is that there are many other members who feel the same way. Most are not vocal for fear of being ostracized by their peers on here. So, feel free to punch and kick me. Say whatever you want at me for my beliefs and the beliefs of others. I can take it.

Do you have to listen to me, Cheapy? Of course not. I'm not making demands. I'm just being vocal. I'm just trying to scream louder than the scammers so hopefully you'll hear me.

I have no idea what you'd believe at this point, but I do respect you Cheapy. I thought you have made some good decisions with the site and gaming in general. There are some things you do that I disagree with, but that's true with everyone. The only reason I pressed the issue is because I originally posted that I 'trusted your judgment' in the Sears thread and you quickly moved it here in the corner of the forum. It seems to me that the rule is now that you can't even bring up anything at all except how to exploit a deal without being pushed off somewhere else in the forum. Am I wrong? Please feel free to elaborate.

I'm sure by going over my post history, you know that I do contribute to the site. I have posted many many deals and have stuck up for the CAGs that were lied to by GQD. I just feel very strongly that you need to have both sides presented when posting a deal. Otherwise, things could digress quickly.

I posted on joystiq, not to belittle you, but to call your policy out. I am hoping you will seriously reconsider this issue. I know I'm in the minority here, but the fact is that there are many other members who feel the same way. Most are not vocal for fear of being ostracized by their peers on here. So, feel free to punch and kick me. Say whatever you want at me for my beliefs and the beliefs of others. I can take it.

Do you have to listen to me, Cheapy? Of course not. I'm not making demands. I'm just being vocal. I'm just trying to scream louder than the scammers so hopefully you'll hear me.

I have just spent the last half hour agruing with Cheapy on how I think your agruement has some real merit (I think questions about a deal's morality belong in that deal thread not here), and he should have addressed better, but to post on another website about CAG's practices being anything less then legitimate is disgusting, especially when you seem to only have an issue with one deal on site that has exisited for 3 years. You really should have used better judgment on your actions, I am finding hard to defend you when you spreading nonsense on other websites.

I mean really your are complaining that you being pushed in the back corner and yet you have had a direct dialog with THE SITE"S OWNER, try to get that kind of attention on any other site, when you have problem with a deal that was posted legally and isnt even a top 10 viewed thread

#80
Roufuss
is now a coupon
CAGiversary! 21591 Posts Joined 12.1 Years Ago

(I think questions about a deal's morality belong in that deal thread not here),

As someone who takes part in alot of deals here, do you know what the worst thing to see is? Leaving the site for a few hours or a day, coming back, and seeing that a thread has had 8 pages added on to it, while none of those 8 pages are even necessary.

Most of these pages are people bitching about hoarding, morals, ethics, Ebay, Fatwallet, etc etc. Wading through those 8 pages to find the two people who posted something important pertaining to the deal is a HUGE pain in the ass. To see one person say "Hey these games are also on sale" but his post is lost because there are 300 posts that have nothing to do with a deal except it's just some person's opinion. The recent CC clearance is a PERFECT example of this.

If people want to start on morality on CAG, let's see what we can get rid of.

- The penny guide thread, that can go entirely, since stores are not supposed to sell them and people get "creative" about how to get them, including taking them off the carts when they've gotten pulled, lying to cashiers about why they are a penny, and other things.

- Every Gamerush / EB / GS trade-in deal thread turns into "How can I exploit this company by getting the most trade-in credit?". This one is not even debatable. Hell, we stickied the Gamerush thread which is just a big how to on finding cheap games and turning them into big credit, taking advantage of Gamerush's ignorance.

- Any sort of thread on advance sales / deals. Companies probably aren't happy those get leaked in advance... I remember a Gamerush employee got fired because Blockbuster found out he was leaking deals on here.

- Threads on coupons where someone has scanned the coupon for others to print.

- Any sort of thread advertising a mis-price where we all jump on it to take advantage of a retailer's mistake.

So this just leaves us with current sales and price drops.

It's getting to the point where I don't feel like posting deals any more or even helping CAG's out, I'll just read the first post of a thread and maybe the last page and that's it. Where were all these people bitching during the last CC glitch with the $19.99 console games? What about the Ace Combat 5 $4.99 mis-priced ad at Sears? Glitches and wrong ad's have been around for a LOOOOOOOONG time, I don't see why just now they are being brought up.

I called my lady friend last night and said my buddy had to beat off on my chest, she is kinda pissed at me, but it was the best idea I had all night, and I stand by it.

Just throwing some potential ideas out there(assuming this is programmable):

For each thread posted in the main deals area, have an icon that sits next to the title. A simple red or green circle would suffice. If the thread hasn't been 'approved' by a moderator, it would be red. If it has been approved, it would be green.
A thread wouldn't have to be approved to show up(though that could always change if wanted), but you would know if it was officially sanctioned by the color.
One thing this might help to do is let the mods know if a thread has been already checked for 'legality' or not - so their attention could be focused on the red threads.
Another thing this would do, is keep the morality posts out of the green threads(hopefully) since they would know the thread has been green-lit.

Glitches and wrong ad's have been around for a LOOOOOOOONG time, I don't see why just now they are being brought up.

I think because if it happened a couple times, people would assume that it's just a blip on the CAG radar and would pass. However, now that it's becoming more and more common, some people just feel that it's enough. Those same people really enjoy the community here at CAG and don't want to see it turn into another FW, where everyone is only out for themselves regardless of the morality behind the deal. Roufuss, do you really believe it's okay to just do whatever you want no matter what? As long as you get yours, everything else is okay? Do you REALLY believe that? I just don't know why you have such a hatred towards people who try and keep things on the up and up. It just seems like you really don't like to hear about how wrong something is you're doing. I know most people don't, but your hatred seems to run deep. I just can't figure out what happened here at CAG to you to make you feel that way.

Wombat, as I said, I'll take my public flogging for 'breaking ranks'. My whole point in posting at joystiq, even though it was conceived as over the top, was to point out that we are not allowed to be heard here at CAG in the deals forum when we are actually commenting about a deal. I had to go to another forum to be heard. That's the point.

Please feel free to attack me though. I can take it. Like I said, I don't mind being called immature and disgusting as long as it drives the point home for those who are afraid to speak up in the open forum.

#83
Roufuss
is now a coupon
CAGiversary! 21591 Posts Joined 12.1 Years Ago

I think because if it happened a couple times, people would assume that it's just a blip on the CAG radar and would pass. However, now that it's becoming more and more common, some people just feel that it's enough. Those same people really enjoy the community here at CAG and don't want to see it turn into another FW, where everyone is only out for themselves regardless of the morality behind the deal. Roufuss, do you really believe it's okay to just do whatever you want no matter what? As long as you get yours, everything else is okay? Do you REALLY believe that? I just don't know why you have such a hatred towards people who try and keep things on the up and up. It just seems like you really don't like to hear about how wrong something is you're doing. I know most people don't, but your hatred seems to run deep. I just can't figure out what happened here at CAG to you to make you feel that way.

Wombat, as I said, I'll take my public flogging for 'breaking ranks'. My whole point in posting at joystiq, even though it was conceived as over the top, was to point out that we are not allowed to be heard here at CAG in the deals forum when we are actually commenting about a deal. I had to go to another forum to be heard. That's the point.

Please feel free to attack me though. I can take it. Like I said, I don't mind being called immature and disgusting as long as it drives the point home for those who are afraid to speak up in the open forum.

Hey, I gave a list of suggestions of everything that was immorally bad on this site that Cheapy should take down. Tricking stores into giving you penny guides is right up there with price matching an ad mistake and using a scanned coupon (something even the mods on this site have done). Scanned coupons and leaked sales have been around on this site for years now, yet nobody has spoken out against it and it's just as bad as taking advantage of a glitch. So yea, if you want to go on a moral crusade against CAG, there are plenty of options to do so but most people tend to ignore the things that work in their favor, such as penny guides or a scanned $10 off coupon for Best Buy.

When did I ever say it's ok to do whatever I want? You're taking what I say waaaaaaaaaay out of context, and painting me as some kind of horrible person committing these unspeakable atrocities against retail stores. I never once used slandering comments against you, so I would appreciate it if you were civil enough to not do so against me. You honestly know 0 about me so please keep your assumptions to yourself.

I mean, I have a hatred against people who keep things on the up and up? Is that why I have 2 or 3 moderators on CAG on my Xbox Live friends list? Yes, I hate them so much that I do my part in moderating posts that are against TOS and try my hardest to keep CAG a good place even though I'm not a moderator.

I called my lady friend last night and said my buddy had to beat off on my chest, she is kinda pissed at me, but it was the best idea I had all night, and I stand by it.

I think because if it happened a couple times, people would assume that it's just a blip on the CAG radar and would pass. However, now that it's becoming more and more common, some people just feel that it's enough. Those same people really enjoy the community here at CAG and don't want to see it turn into another FW, where everyone is only out for themselves regardless of the morality behind the deal. Roufuss, do you really believe it's okay to just do whatever you want no matter what? As long as you get yours, everything else is okay? Do you REALLY believe that? I just don't know why you have such a hatred towards people who try and keep things on the up and up. It just seems like you really don't like to hear about how wrong something is you're doing. I know most people don't, but your hatred seems to run deep. I just can't figure out what happened here at CAG to you to make you feel that way.

Wombat, as I said, I'll take my public flogging for 'breaking ranks'. My whole point in posting at joystiq, even though it was conceived as over the top, was to point out that we are not allowed to be heard here at CAG in the deals forum when we are actually commenting about a deal. I had to go to another forum to be heard. That's the point.

Please feel free to attack me though. I can take it. Like I said, I don't mind being called immature and disgusting as long as it drives the point home for those who are afraid to speak up in the open forum.

what bothers me is that you still don't realize what you did was just as wrong if not worse, if you thought the deal was morally incorrect you have every right to voice that concern, did you PM a moderator to voice your concern and not get a response? If that was case then by all means go ahead and raise your stink, but keep it here not on another site. Your actions because they were so volitile and poorly concieved have destoyed any credibiltity you have ever had, and this is from someone who sees your point, but you need to apologize to Cheapy here and on Joystiq for making false acusations about the legality of his actions and his inability to address the concerns of his users

I think because if it happened a couple times, people would assume that it's just a blip on the CAG radar and would pass. However, now that it's becoming more and more common, some people just feel that it's enough. Those same people really enjoy the community here at CAG and don't want to see it turn into another FW, where everyone is only out for themselves regardless of the morality behind the deal. Roufuss, do you really believe it's okay to just do whatever you want no matter what? As long as you get yours, everything else is okay? Do you REALLY believe that? I just don't know why you have such a hatred towards people who try and keep things on the up and up. It just seems like you really don't like to hear about how wrong something is you're doing. I know most people don't, but your hatred seems to run deep. I just can't figure out what happened here at CAG to you to make you feel that way.

Wombat, as I said, I'll take my public flogging for 'breaking ranks'. My whole point in posting at joystiq, even though it was conceived as over the top, was to point out that we are not allowed to be heard here at CAG in the deals forum when we are actually commenting about a deal. I had to go to another forum to be heard. That's the point.

Please feel free to attack me though. I can take it. Like I said, I don't mind being called immature and disgusting as long as it drives the point home for those who are afraid to speak up in the open forum.

You sound like a cry baby, and going to to joystiq to complain was very bitch like of you.

why the dont you leave this site then if you complain the morality of deals?

Are you telling me that people don't complain about Joystiq's "biases" and "non-reporting" here? Joystiq gets slighted on a daily basis, but you don't see them raising a big stink about it. They take it in stride, and let the quality and content of their site speak for itself. As should we.

To both sides: quit being little bitches here! Come on now, act like adults.

To fwacce: You could've gone about things in a more mature manner, and you've admitted that. I think you have a valid concern, and also good intentions. When you boil it down, it just seems like you care about CAG and its community. Regardless of the actions you took, at least you cared enough to take them. This doesn't seem like the work of some troll just looking to be a jerk. I think your specific actions were wrong, but that's already been addressed, and it seems that you've seen your error.

To Cheapy: It sucks when people bad mouth you and this site, especially if it isn't true. I know that you have the best of intentions for this site, and you know what? So far you've done a great job with building the CAG community, and portraying CAG as a good and fair place. I can't think of any other incidents online of people bashing this site aside from this latest incident. I constantly see people bashing Joystiq and Kotaku for different reasons, but CAG seems to be universally lauded. I would take this incident as the greatest of compliments, because there really hasn't been anything like this before now, in our 3 (4?) year history. So some random guy makes some false accusation towards you, big deal. It was bound to happen sooner or later.

But fwacce's actions beg a few questions. Whywas it that s/he took the actions that they did? Obviously they thought that contacting you or another authority figure would have been useless. There seems to be a perception that CheapyD & co. are just going to do whatever they want to do, and "screw you" if you think otherwise. Is this a correct assumption? I don't think it is, but you have to prove to the community why it's not. This was an opportunity for an open discussion amongst the entire community of how to handle a touchy and important issue here at CAG, but it devolved into a flame war within 2 pages. If you want to portray CAG as a community where people's opinions actually matter and make a difference (as they should), then you have take steps to make it one. A subject like this really needs your full hands-on attention, but honestly this whole issue has that "swept under the rug" feeling going for it. Talk about our problems out in the open, not in PM or Email. Let EVERYBODY in on it. We're all CAGs, and this is a CAG issue. Not a CheapyD-being-slandered issue, not a fwacce-being-an-asshole issue, but a full CAG issue.

It seems like everybody here has concerns. These need to be addressed. Good intentions or not, if we want to avoid further PR blunders, then we have to get this solved in a way that is suitable to both sides of the fence. Compromise isn't a horrible thing.

Hey, I gave a list of suggestions of everything that was immorally bad on this site that Cheapy should take down. Tricking stores into giving you penny guides is right up there with price matching an ad mistake and using a scanned coupon (something even the mods on this site have done). Scanned coupons and leaked sales have been around on this site for years now, yet nobody has spoken out against it and it's just as bad as taking advantage of a glitch. So yea, if you want to go on a moral crusade against CAG, there are plenty of options to do so but most people tend to ignore the things that work in their favor, such as penny guides or a scanned $10 off coupon for Best Buy.

When did I ever say it's ok to do whatever I want? You're taking what I say waaaaaaaaaay out of context, and painting me as some kind of horrible person committing these unspeakable atrocities against retail stores. I never once used slandering comments against you, so I would appreciate it if you were civil enough to not do so against me. You honestly know 0 about me so please keep your assumptions to yourself.

I mean, I have a hatred against people who keep things on the up and up? Is that why I have 2 or 3 moderators on CAG on my Xbox Live friends list? Yes, I hate them so much that I do my part in moderating posts that are against TOS and try my hardest to keep CAG a good place even though I'm not a moderator.

Everything you stated is why I think we should continue to discuss these things and not be censored. If people are openly doing things that are unethical, they should be called out - and CAG should not implicitly support it. Free discussion gives everyone the opportunity to decide for themselves what is right. The more information you have, the easier it is to make an informed decision.

You will note that you left a LOT of information out of your list of items that should be "removed" from CAG in an effort to prove your point. What you really proved was the need for both sides to be represented.

fwacce, you're walking a very thin line here. What you did at joystiq was extremely uncalled for.

The site has not changed at all since we decided to censor morality discussions in the Deals Forum. The same deals that have always been allowed are still allowed in the deals forum and we still delete illegal deals.

The only thing this prevents is flame wars from people trying to enforce their morals on other users. Quickly looking through your past posts, it is clear that you enjoyed voicing your opinion frequently on deals that you did not agree with. This caused people from both camps to shoot back insults at one another that I feel, had no place in the deal thread.

Voicing your moral opinion on any deal that you think is wrong, does nothing to help your fellow CAGs. It will not change anyone's mind on whether they choose to participate in the deal. All it does is anger people. While you might think you are taking the higher road, you are simply upsetting people and trying to enforce your moral standards on them.

You have a better chance of your opinions being taken seriously in a set aside thread meant to talk about the morality of deals. In a deals thread, people are just trying to read about a deal and could care less about the personal feelings of anyone on here in regards to that deal.

Of course, after what you did, you're probably going to have a much harder time getting people to value your opinion. I still can't believe that you would post something like that on Joystiq when you had this thread to discuss your concerns (and where your concerns were actually being taken into account), moderators here to talk to, and even Cheapy himself.

Hoarders & people who take advantage of glitches have come nowhere near as close to hurting the reputation of CAG as you have with your little Joystiq stunt.

Ok, what is the problem here, exactly? Illegal deals get deleted. Everything else is fair game. That's the way it is here and the way it is everywhere, barring Candyland, if it indeed exists.

If you think a deal is somehow unethical here's what you do: you get on the phone to managers at the offended stores and let them know that there might be people coming in to take advantage of whatever glitch and they should get a correction up at the register to prevent a loss. If you're "ethical," and not just jealous that your morals hold you back from getting in on a deal that other people are, you're not supposed to sit around and bitch about it in a deal thread. You're supposed to try to rectify the breech of ethics as best you can. Letting something you see as unethical go on is hypocritical, no matter how much whining you do here to try to guilt people into acting decent.

Also, blah blah blah blah Joystiq. If Cheapy doesn't like it, what's stopping him from popping over there and rebutting it? Something? I hope it's something from all the hyperbole thrown around over someone running their mouth on another site.

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