She sounds a bit silly and immature to me. Writing off the whole male sex in her country as being unworthy of her, at the grand old age of 24. No chance of finding a partner who isn't like all the rest? As people get older they tend to realise that other people are, or should be, the most important things in their life.

It's an interesting thing to think about. Are people who don't have any plans to have kids being selfish? They are in at least one way, since they're not producing the people who would pay into the government pensions they will theoretically be receiving when they're older. Not that I think that's enough reason to just go pop out a few kids.

It would be interesting to know the age of some of the people who've posted in this thread. I see a lot of people who have attitudes similar to mine when I was younger. I never wanted kids, actively avoided responsibility (Hello Korea!) and just generally wanted to live free.

My attitudes started to shift a lot around 29 or 30ish. I started to find myself less excited for the things I used to be really jazzed about. A trip abroad was just another trip, been on a ton. A weekend getaway to a beach town was just another night drinking on a beach, been there done that. And a night out at a noisy bar? Bleh. Not to say I didn't enjoy any of that stuff anymore, but it was all starting to feel a bit empty.

So I started to reconsider how I'd always thought about children. Eventually my wife and I decided to have one. Jokes on me though, we ended up with twins.

Still, I don't regret a thing. Only been a dad for a few months now, but there's this sense of purpose in it that I haven't had very often before. I watched a youtube video recently where the guy speaking said that people find meaning in the responsibilities they take on, rather than consumerist hedonism. I'm starting to believe that's true. I've done a lot of cool shit in my life before now, but there's no denying the bulk of it had been exactly that meaningless fun he was talking about.

I don't think everyone should just up and be a parent or anything, I think we all know people who just wouldn't be well suited to it. I DO think people who hold attitudes like I used to should carefully consider them as they grow older though. We all only get one life, and being a parent is definitely a one of a kind experience. Being a cool uncle doesn't even come close. (no offense)

This topic also relates to a book I just bought but haven't gotten around to reading yet, called Skin in the Game by Nassim Taleb. It's essentially about how you should never trust the advice or opinions of people who don't have a stake in what's being discussed. (Don't invest the way your financial adviser suggests you should, invest the way he invests himself essentially) I wonder the extent to which people who don't have kids may disregard the future consequences of government policies in their countries. Do people who have kids care more about the deficit? Are people without them more likely to vote for big government spending programs that will benefit them but balloon the debt?

I don't actually know the answers, but it is something to think about.

It's an interesting thing to think about. Are people who don't have any plans to have kids being selfish? They are in at least one way, since they're not producing the people who would pay into the government pensions they will theoretically be receiving when they're older. Not that I think that's enough reason to just go pop out a few kids.

It would be interesting to know the age of some of the people who've posted in this thread. I see a lot of people who have attitudes similar to mine when I was younger. I never wanted kids, actively avoided responsibility (Hello Korea!) and just generally wanted to live free.

My attitudes started to shift a lot around 29 or 30ish. I started to find myself less excited for the things I used to be really jazzed about. A trip abroad was just another trip, been on a ton. A weekend getaway to a beach town was just another night drinking on a beach, been there done that. And a night out at a noisy bar? Bleh. Not to say I didn't enjoy any of that stuff anymore, but it was all starting to feel a bit empty.

So I started to reconsider how I'd always thought about children. Eventually my wife and I decided to have one. Jokes on me though, we ended up with twins.

Still, I don't regret a thing. Only been a dad for a few months now, but there's this sense of purpose in it that I haven't had very often before. I watched a youtube video recently where the guy speaking said that people find meaning in the responsibilities they take on, rather than consumerist hedonism. I'm starting to believe that's true. I've done a lot of cool shit in my life before now, but there's no denying the bulk of it had been exactly that meaningless fun he was talking about.

I don't think everyone should just up and be a parent or anything, I think we all know people who just wouldn't be well suited to it. I DO think people who hold attitudes like I used to should carefully consider them as they grow older though. We all only get one life, and being a parent is definitely a one of a kind experience. Being a cool uncle doesn't even come close. (no offense)

Cheers for the input, you added some interesting stuff. However I don't think you realize just how cool an uncle I am.

Seriously though, I'm 30 and I still don't want any. I used to be a bit more on the fence but I've since come down on the 'definitely not' side. I've worked out that even with my kind of 'meh' salary without financial dependents I can afford to retire 20 years before I assumed. As much as I do like getting drunk on beaches I'm not much of a hedonist. The main part of retirement I'm looking forward to is being able to pursue a wide education without the pressure of job-prospects looming over me. I completely believe people find happiness and meaning in having children but it's definitely not all people. My idea of Heaven (studying at leisure and traveling the world) just doesn't involve children.

..surely if youare fluent in korean you could work in something other than esl?

Quote from: lifeimprovement

The marriage rate in South Korea is at its lowest since records began - 5.5 per 1,000 people.

Why would anybody want a typical Korean wedding? mind-bogglingly expensive, tacky and garuanteed to leave you in debt for years. Its a scam.

Westerners nowadays pump out kids without getting formally married. Koreans though still think "if i can't afford the W100M for the marriage ceremony complete with stale overpriced food nobody wants to eat and insane dowry costs, then I'll have to accept to be unmarried which means I'll never have kids.

They don't get it: marriage is about the relationship and life between two people, not about the brief ceremony and impressing the in-laws with huge gifts. But because Koreans are so obsessed with status and money, they are increasingly unable to marry and reproduce.

Korean weddings generally cost the happy couple less than Western ones because of all the money gifts they get back. Most weddings are bog standard affairs in wedding halls with a cheap buffet, not overpriced food nobody wants to eat, and can even turn a profit. And what are dowry costs?

She sounds a bit silly and immature to me. Writing off the whole male sex in her country as being unworthy of her, at the grand old age of 24.

No, thats not what she said. Actually she gave entirely logical and rational reasons for not wanting to marry, date or have kids. Nowhere does she insult men.

Quote

No chance of finding a partner who isn't like all the rest?

Why does it bother you if she wants to stay single?

Why do you care about what someone else wants to do with their life? You sound jealous that someone is able to have their own mind.

Quote from: MoneyMike

Being a cool uncle doesn't even come close. (no offense)

Oh but it was an offence, however subtle. You're trying to say that you're a superior human now that you've had a kid. Was it really that difficult for you to contribute a sperm? Congratulations. Hardly the achievement of the century.

If all you did as a single person was hang around bars then its hardly surprising your life was meaningless. Don't assume everyone is as vacant as you are.

Incels are defined as people who want a partner but can't find one. That description clearly doesn't apply to Yun-Hwa. Is it impossible for you to imagine that she is alone by choice? That she is quite content with her own life and her own company. That she has friends, people like her.

What I think really grinds the gears of people like you is that you were too weak to find meaning in your own life or resist societal dictates. Yet people like Yun Hwa have the courage to actually follow their own path.

No, thats not what she said. Actually she gave entirely logical and rational reasons for not wanting to marry, date or have kids. Nowhere does she insult men.

When I ask Yun-hwa how men see women in South Korea, she has a one-word answer: "Slave."

You think that likening Korean men to slave drivers is not an insult and entirely logical and rational?

Quote

Why does it bother you if she wants to stay single?

Why do you care about what someone else wants to do with their life?

Why does it bother you if someone wants to criticise someone who wants to stay single? Why do you care about what someone thinks of someone else you don't even know?Why are you triggered by someone just having an opinion? Why do you complain about everything Korean people do that's different from your country?

No, thats not what she said. Actually she gave entirely logical and rational reasons for not wanting to marry, date or have kids. Nowhere does she insult men.

When I ask Yun-hwa how men see women in South Korea, she has a one-word answer: "Slave."

You think that likening Korean men to slave drivers is not an insult

Are you a Korean man? if not why are you bothered? You spend half your time on this forum criticizing k-men anyway.

Sure, maybe she is using hyperbole, but she is basically correct in that Korean women have been subordinated and made to serve men in an extremely disadvanted role for a loooong time. If you don't appreciate then you don't know much about this country.

Quote

Quote

Why does it bother you if she wants to stay single?

Why do you care about what someone else wants to do with their life?

Why does it bother you if someone wants to criticise someone who wants to stay single?

Lol now you're evading the question like you always do.

That is why debating anything with you is a waste of time. You spend your life avoiding reality. Your responses are infantile and ad-homs is all you ever have to offer.

The fact that you and moneymike seem so upset that someone should choose a different option to yourself indicates a deep insecurity with your own.

That is why debating anything with you is a waste of time. You spend your life avoiding reality. Your responses are infantile and ad-homs is all you ever have to offer.

Debating? You've deployed two well worn internet 'arguments' used by people who don't really have anything to say but want to attack someone verbally. The 'why are you so angry about this?' line and the 'you're criticizing something, therefore you must secretly be jealous of it' line. Neither of them are designed for a response, they're just intended to wind the recipient up. DeMartino tends to use them every time someone has a pop at Korean culture. All the other person can say to negate it is 'I'm not angry about this and I'm not jealous', which inevitably leads to a pointless 'yes you are/no I'm not type' exchange.

The only actual point you made was that the Korean woman in the article wasn't being irrational or insulting Korean men, which you were proved wrong about, so just give it a rest.

Oh but it was an offence, however subtle. You're trying to say that you're a superior human now that you've had a kid. Was it really that difficult for you to contribute a sperm? Congratulations. Hardly the achievement of the century.

If all you did as a single person was hang around bars then its hardly surprising your life was meaningless. Don't assume everyone is as vacant as you are.

It was a silly dig. I don't read or post on waygook that often, but I'm getting the impression that maybe you take things a bit too seriously?

As far as how vacant I am, which is kind of a shitty thing to say to someone you don't know, I posted things I do that I think a lot of people could relate to. I'm not here to score internet points by demonstrating how cool I am. You could probably learn a bit from that one.

As far as how vacant I am, which is kind of a shitty thing to say to someone you don't know

Oh now you're the victim? Well, this is how you labelled someone you didn't know earlier:

Quote

Bitter and alone. Female equivalent of incel.

You attacked someone you don't know with a cruel stereotype, you attempted to devalue someone simply because they have chosen a different option in life to yourself.

Quote

I'm not here to score internet points by demonstrating how cool I am

Neither am I, I'm trying to point out the casual stigma and spite that society inflicts on single people. You'rs and eggiguffers posts illustrated that. Sorry if I offended you, and you seem an ok guy, but,.. please be careful about casually marginalizing and belittling single people.

You never hear a single person attacking married people, yet married people or couples with kids habitually attack single people.

Just an example: you see a single person: you go over and tell them "don't worry, i'm sure you'll find someone one day. You must be lonely".

Lets reverse the roles for a second. Imagine if a single person walked up to you and said "don't worry, I'm sure you'll get divorced one day. You must be tired of having no life of your own".

Of course, no single person would ever say that. Yet married people get away with comments like that all the time. Not to mention that e.g. single people earn less than married people, even when holding the same qualifications. Or the vast number of benefits and tax breaks married people get vs singles. There is a huge bias against single people in society. Its wrong!

Maybe this will finally change soon, because single people are about to become a majority in the west.

It's an interesting thing to think about. Are people who don't have any plans to have kids being selfish? They are in at least one way, since they're not producing the people who would pay into the government pensions they will theoretically be receiving when they're older. Not that I think that's enough reason to just go pop out a few kids.

It would be interesting to know the age of some of the people who've posted in this thread. I see a lot of people who have attitudes similar to mine when I was younger. I never wanted kids, actively avoided responsibility (Hello Korea!) and just generally wanted to live free.

My attitudes started to shift a lot around 29 or 30ish. I started to find myself less excited for the things I used to be really jazzed about. A trip abroad was just another trip, been on a ton. A weekend getaway to a beach town was just another night drinking on a beach, been there done that. And a night out at a noisy bar? Bleh. Not to say I didn't enjoy any of that stuff anymore, but it was all starting to feel a bit empty.

So I started to reconsider how I'd always thought about children. Eventually my wife and I decided to have one. Jokes on me though, we ended up with twins.

Still, I don't regret a thing. Only been a dad for a few months now, but there's this sense of purpose in it that I haven't had very often before. I watched a youtube video recently where the guy speaking said that people find meaning in the responsibilities they take on, rather than consumerist hedonism. I'm starting to believe that's true. I've done a lot of cool shit in my life before now, but there's no denying the bulk of it had been exactly that meaningless fun he was talking about.

I don't think everyone should just up and be a parent or anything, I think we all know people who just wouldn't be well suited to it. I DO think people who hold attitudes like I used to should carefully consider them as they grow older though. We all only get one life, and being a parent is definitely a one of a kind experience. Being a cool uncle doesn't even come close. (no offense)

This topic also relates to a book I just bought but haven't gotten around to reading yet, called Skin in the Game by Nassim Taleb. It's essentially about how you should never trust the advice or opinions of people who don't have a stake in what's being discussed. (Don't invest the way your financial adviser suggests you should, invest the way he invests himself essentially) I wonder the extent to which people who don't have kids may disregard the future consequences of government policies in their countries. Do people who have kids care more about the deficit? Are people without them more likely to vote for big government spending programs that will benefit them but balloon the debt?

I don't actually know the answers, but it is something to think about.

I recently turned 29, and I've never wanted kids myself, and still don't.I've never really enjoyed being around other people, and I struggle with social skills greatly.I mentioned this earlier in the thread as a joke but, I do agree with this a little bit: Having children is a selfish act too. Parents usually have a child because THEY want a child, we can't exactly ask an unborn baby if they want to be born, though.

But personally, these days, the state of the world is more in line with why I still don't want to have children.It's basically becoming harder to live, with governments becoming more and more corrupt, big company CEOs becoming too greedy and always wanting more, when their family is already set up for at least 10 lifetimes. Global warming and stuff like that. I could probably go on, but I hope you get the idea.I personally think bringing a child into the state of things now is a horrible thing to do.

And I think that is a lot of the stuff that people don't take into consideration. Conditions of the world that you'd be subjecting another life to. If the world can get to a position where the conditions will be better, then I could see me changing my stance a bit.

As far as how vacant I am, which is kind of a shitty thing to say to someone you don't know

Oh now you're the victim? Well, this is how you labelled someone you didn't know earlier:

Quote

Bitter and alone. Female equivalent of incel.

You attacked someone you don't know with a cruel stereotype, you attempted to devalue someone simply because they have chosen a different option in life to yourself.

Quote

I'm not here to score internet points by demonstrating how cool I am

Neither am I, I'm trying to point out the casual stigma and spite that society inflicts on single people. You'rs and eggiguffers posts illustrated that. Sorry if I offended you, and you seem an ok guy, but,.. please be careful about casually marginalizing and belittling single people.

You never hear a single person attacking married people, yet married people or couples with kids habitually attack single people.

Just an example: you see a single person: you go over and tell them "don't worry, i'm sure you'll find someone one day. You must be lonely".

Lets reverse the roles for a second. Imagine if a single person walked up to you and said "don't worry, I'm sure you'll get divorced one day. You must be tired of having no life of your own".

Of course, no single person would ever say that. Yet married people get away with comments like that all the time. Not to mention that e.g. single people earn less than married people, even when holding the same qualifications. Or the vast number of benefits and tax breaks married people get vs singles. There is a huge bias against single people in society. Its wrong!

Maybe this will finally change soon, because single people are about to become a majority in the west.

TBH, I frequently say to my friends and family that are getting married / having a baby 'I'm sorry to hear that."But, since they are friends and family, they know it is in jest. I don't think I'd say it to a stranger, or someone I'm not too familiar with, and mean it. Unless they displayed that they are a horrible person or something.

As far as how vacant I am, which is kind of a shitty thing to say to someone you don't know

Oh now you're the victim? Well, this is how you labelled someone you didn't know earlier:

Quote

Bitter and alone. Female equivalent of incel.

You attacked someone you don't know with a cruel stereotype, you attempted to devalue someone simply because they have chosen a different option in life to yourself.

Quote

I'm not here to score internet points by demonstrating how cool I am

Neither am I, I'm trying to point out the casual stigma and spite that society inflicts on single people. You'rs and eggiguffers posts illustrated that. Sorry if I offended you, and you seem an ok guy, but,.. please be careful about casually marginalizing and belittling single people.

You never hear a single person attacking married people, yet married people or couples with kids habitually attack single people.

Just an example: you see a single person: you go over and tell them "don't worry, i'm sure you'll find someone one day. You must be lonely".

Lets reverse the roles for a second. Imagine if a single person walked up to you and said "don't worry, I'm sure you'll get divorced one day. You must be tired of having no life of your own".

Of course, no single person would ever say that. Yet married people get away with comments like that all the time. Not to mention that e.g. single people earn less than married people, even when holding the same qualifications. Or the vast number of benefits and tax breaks married people get vs singles. There is a huge bias against single people in society. Its wrong!

Maybe this will finally change soon, because single people are about to become a majority in the west.

That second quote isn't me. That's someone else. Thanks for playing though.

TBH, I frequently say to my friends and family that are getting married / having a baby 'I'm sorry to hear that."But, since they are friends and family, they know it is in jest. I don't think I'd say it to a stranger, or someone I'm not too familiar with, and mean it. Unless they displayed that they are a horrible person or something.

I don't think anyone really minds humor like that, lord knows I've said the same thing about my situation.

It's an interesting thing to think about. Are people who don't have any plans to have kids being selfish? They are in at least one way, since they're not producing the people who would pay into the government pensions they will theoretically be receiving when they're older. Not that I think that's enough reason to just go pop out a few kids.

It would be interesting to know the age of some of the people who've posted in this thread. I see a lot of people who have attitudes similar to mine when I was younger. I never wanted kids, actively avoided responsibility (Hello Korea!) and just generally wanted to live free.

My attitudes started to shift a lot around 29 or 30ish. I started to find myself less excited for the things I used to be really jazzed about. A trip abroad was just another trip, been on a ton. A weekend getaway to a beach town was just another night drinking on a beach, been there done that. And a night out at a noisy bar? Bleh. Not to say I didn't enjoy any of that stuff anymore, but it was all starting to feel a bit empty.

So I started to reconsider how I'd always thought about children. Eventually my wife and I decided to have one. Jokes on me though, we ended up with twins.

Still, I don't regret a thing. Only been a dad for a few months now, but there's this sense of purpose in it that I haven't had very often before. I watched a youtube video recently where the guy speaking said that people find meaning in the responsibilities they take on, rather than consumerist hedonism. I'm starting to believe that's true. I've done a lot of cool shit in my life before now, but there's no denying the bulk of it had been exactly that meaningless fun he was talking about.

I don't think everyone should just up and be a parent or anything, I think we all know people who just wouldn't be well suited to it. I DO think people who hold attitudes like I used to should carefully consider them as they grow older though. We all only get one life, and being a parent is definitely a one of a kind experience. Being a cool uncle doesn't even come close. (no offense)

This topic also relates to a book I just bought but haven't gotten around to reading yet, called Skin in the Game by Nassim Taleb. It's essentially about how you should never trust the advice or opinions of people who don't have a stake in what's being discussed. (Don't invest the way your financial adviser suggests you should, invest the way he invests himself essentially) I wonder the extent to which people who don't have kids may disregard the future consequences of government policies in their countries. Do people who have kids care more about the deficit? Are people without them more likely to vote for big government spending programs that will benefit them but balloon the debt?

I don't actually know the answers, but it is something to think about.

I recently turned 29, and I've never wanted kids myself, and still don't.I've never really enjoyed being around other people, and I struggle with social skills greatly.I mentioned this earlier in the thread as a joke but, I do agree with this a little bit: Having children is a selfish act too. Parents usually have a child because THEY want a child, we can't exactly ask an unborn baby if they want to be born, though.

But personally, these days, the state of the world is more in line with why I still don't want to have children.It's basically becoming harder to live, with governments becoming more and more corrupt, big company CEOs becoming too greedy and always wanting more, when their family is already set up for at least 10 lifetimes. Global warming and stuff like that. I could probably go on, but I hope you get the idea.I personally think bringing a child into the state of things now is a horrible thing to do.

And I think that is a lot of the stuff that people don't take into consideration. Conditions of the world that you'd be subjecting another life to. If the world can get to a position where the conditions will be better, then I could see me changing my stance a bit.

Sorry, if I explained this poorly. I'm not all here today.

I think the idea that it's becoming harder and harder to live doesn't really hold up. (maybe depending on where you live I guess) My parents families didn't have 2 nickels to rub together when they were kids, and they did just fine. Go back to my grandparents childhood and things were largely the same. It doesn't require exorbitant amounts of money to be a decent parent. A lower middle class income will cut it as long as you're living in a place with a reasonable cost of living. (and living frugally yourself)

As far as the state of the world, I think you're way off base. Violent crime has gone way down all over North America, and the idea that CEO's taking too much money is causing some kind of problem for the rest of society is simply false. If a CEO is being paid more than he's worth the board can simply vote to reduce his pay.

Regarding having kids as being selfish, it is in some sense I guess. You do it because you want to after all. I think the proper way to handle that is to accept that this confers a responsibility to make sure your kids grow up loved and taken care of.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone they should or anything, just rambling. I like to ramble.

I recently turned 29, and I've never wanted kids myself, and still don't.I've never really enjoyed being around other people, and I struggle with social skills greatly.I mentioned this earlier in the thread as a joke but, I do agree with this a little bit: Having children is a selfish act too. Parents usually have a child because THEY want a child, we can't exactly ask an unborn baby if they want to be born, though.

But personally, these days, the state of the world is more in line with why I still don't want to have children.It's basically becoming harder to live, with governments becoming more and more corrupt, big company CEOs becoming too greedy and always wanting more, when their family is already set up for at least 10 lifetimes. Global warming and stuff like that. I could probably go on, but I hope you get the idea.I personally think bringing a child into the state of things now is a horrible thing to do.

And I think that is a lot of the stuff that people don't take into consideration. Conditions of the world that you'd be subjecting another life to. If the world can get to a position where the conditions will be better, then I could see me changing my stance a bit.

Sorry, if I explained this poorly. I'm not all here today.

I think the idea that it's becoming harder and harder to live doesn't really hold up. (maybe depending on where you live I guess) My parents families didn't have 2 nickels to rub together when they were kids, and they did just fine. Go back to my grandparents childhood and things were largely the same. It doesn't require exorbitant amounts of money to be a decent parent. A lower middle class income will cut it as long as you're living in a place with a reasonable cost of living. (and living frugally yourself)

As far as the state of the world, I think you're way off base. Violent crime has gone way down all over North America, and the idea that CEO's taking too much money is causing some kind of problem for the rest of society is simply false. If a CEO is being paid more than he's worth the board can simply vote to reduce his pay.

Regarding having kids as being selfish, it is in some sense I guess. You do it because you want to after all. I think the proper way to handle that is to accept that this confers a responsibility to make sure your kids grow up loved and taken care of.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone they should or anything, just rambling. I like to ramble.

Some of the highest birthrates are in India and Indonesia. These are countries with far less to live on than Western countries and deal with more disease and crime. Life is much MUCH easier than it was years ago.

The real cause for low birth rates is not evil CEO's, lack of resources, global warming, etc. Those are poor excuses. People choose not to because it inconveniences them in the easiest time to be alive ever with so much other stuff to do. Having children is a massive sacrifice to someone's lifestyle, time, and finances. It's not to say anyone is right or wrong, but that personal priorities have shifted and having kids seems a bit more trivial now.

LOL at some of the comments in this thread. If it was so selfish to have kids have you ever gotten in your parents faces and screamed at them "why did you selfish sods have me?"

I know its inconvenient to have kids and they entail responsibility (hence the thread title) but without them it sounds like developed countries and all the cultures associated with them will disappear.

And of course the future will be a dark place because there are no children. Self fulfilling prophecy.