This is partly an excuse to talk about combat animations (and swordfighting) again, but I really am curious; Do you want the combat animations in the next game to be realistic, over-the-top, or focus more on looking cool than being practical.

For those who don't know what Flynning is, you can can look at the Tv Tropes page for in-depth detail and analysis. It's essentially stage swordplay, where opponents seem focus more on attacking each others swords and providing a good show than actually hitting each other. The main reason for this is safety concerns for the actors/stuntmen to avoid accidental injury, although the fact that fencing lessons cost time and money, along with how real life fights are fast, subtle and occasionally anticlimactic, are also factors.

Examples of Flynning (note that these are just examples; in a Fire Emblem game, I'd expect the fights to be faster and downplayed in flashiness):

Spoiler

A famous example from The Adventures of Robin Hood:

Simultaneously a excellent parody and an excellent example of this trope from The Court Jester:

An example of a more realistic/authentic swordfight (from Adorea Olomouc):

I tend to prefer fire emblem be as it has been, over the top, but not absolutely ridiculous, that second video may come across as epic, but it was framed so heavily to be that way that it is hard to judge the choreography rather than he music and camerawork, and the first while amusing, I don't feel would work for a fire emblem game, so I guess that as far as my opinion I think fire emblem radiant dawn had the most memorable animations (of the 3d fire emblems) and I think it is a solid point of reference for the animations on a fundamental level, flashy enough to be fun to watch, but grounded enough to keep from being hard to take seriously, also had the best mage animations.

I give bonus points to sov for being beautifully smooth and having gold knights incorporating their mount into some of their attacks.

edit: another thing, swordmasters are typically loved for their over the topness so it is kind of hard to say that swordmasters would really be cared for if they were too down to earth.

I think fire emblem radiant dawn had the most memorable animations (of the 3d fire emblems) and I think it is a solid point of reference for the animations on a fundamental level, flashy enough to be fun to watch, but grounded enough to keep from being hard to take seriously, also had the best mage animations.

What animations are you referring to? Because Radiant Dawn has incredibly stiff and awkward animations. The magic spells are pretty though.

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As for over-the-top V.S realism, I'm torn. As a HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) practitioner, I often appreciate when a game has moments of authenticity. That being said, I still love the animation for Aether in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, even though trying to do it in real life would be immensely dangerous. However, the way Corrin used swords in Fire Emblem Fates was immensely ridiculous in my opinion; all the pointless spinning, and very little actually hitting the opponent. ...So, I think I'm on the side of standard attacks should be realistic, and critical hits/skill animations can be over-the-top if done well.

Side Note: one should distinguish between realism and authenticity. If I swung a sword around as if it were a baseball bat, it would be realistic, in that people can theoretically fight like that. But, is it authentic... The very first technique I learned in HEMA was how to counter a swordsman that's relying on strength. What Adorea Olomouc do in that video is not just realistic, but is also authentic, and more of it would be great to see in FE.

33 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

edit: another thing, swordmasters are typically loved for their over the topness so it is kind of hard to say that swordmasters would really be cared for if they were too down to earth.

I don't know; most of the swordmaster attack animations in Path of Radiance were rather down-to-earth while still being enjoyable.

Idea: what about a skill either swordmasters or heroes can learn, that deals bonus damage against armoured foes, but less damage overall. For the skill animation, the unit grips the sword by the blade with both hands, and strikes the opponent with the guard or pommel. This is an authentic technique, called a Mordhau, that actually was used against armoured opponents. Here's a video about it:

Flynning can be enjoyable when choreographed and performed well, and it helps that in the Golden Days of Hollywood that many actors had some experience with fencing, so they actually knew what to do to put on a good show. But yeah, I too find realism in fight scenes to be more interesting and engaging than actors performing "stylish" or "fancy" moves.

28 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

As for over-the-top V.S realism, I'm torn. As a HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) practitioner, I often appreciate when a game has moments of authenticity.

That's awesome! I always find it interesting to see what people with experience with these kinds of things.

29 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Side Note: one should distinguish between realism and authenticity. If I swung a sword around as if it were a baseball bat, it would be realistic, in that people can theoretically fight like that. But, is it authentic... The very first technique I learned in HEMA was how to counter a swordsman that's relying on strength. What Adorea Olomouc do in that video is not just realistic, but is also authentic, and more of it would be great to see in FE.

I may edit the original post and replace "realistic" with "authentic". I actually found out about the Adorea Olomouc guys yesterday, and it turns out they're specialize in sword fighting and historical martial arts and fencing, and actually have some experience working with movies and live performances. Heck, this entire topic came about from searching up Flynning on Tv Tropes, looking at a few examples, and randomly thinking "Hey! It would be interesting to see the Fire Emblem fights play out like this!"

44 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Idea: what about a skill either swordmasters or heroes can learn, that deals bonus damage against armoured foes, but less damage overall. For the skill animation, the unit grips the sword by the blade with both hands, and strikes the opponent with the guard or pommel. This is an authentic technique, called a Mordhau, that actually was used against armoured opponents. Here's a video about it:

Reveal hidden contents

Thank you for sharing this! I have a strong love of history, so learning about these kind of things always interests me. And I always did like the idea of Fire Emblem fights pulling moves like these, even if the end result would be largely cosmetic.

By the way, the videos in the original post where merely to provide examples of what flynning is (and one is a fun parody, anyway), as well as what an authentic sword fight looks like. The fights for a Fire Emblem game would obviously be faster and toned down a little. Also, my favorite animations in the series are SoV anyway, and I would love to see them be updated and improved.

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I don't mind over the top, as long they don't slow down the game too much. That was the problem with RD, where spells like Cymbeline took forever to animate, even when battle animations were turned off.

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Flynning can be enjoyable when choreographed and performed well, and it helps that in the Golden Days of Hollywood that many actors had some experience with fencing, so they actually knew what to do to put on a good show. But yeah, I too find realism in fight scenes to be more interesting and engaging than actors performing "stylish" or "fancy" moves.

It can be... although I will say that, once people know more about how actual historic fights were done, they (myself included) tend to start noticing more and more things in Hollywood fights and thinking, "Well; that's just ridiculous." Once you learn more about historical fighting, a lot more movie fight scenes that once seemed cool start seeming ridiculous. On the plus side, when a movie or TV fight does something actually authentic that is also cool, the more it can be appreciated.

When I was saying no to flynning, I was saying no because I feel it doesn't really fit an FE game, especially with the way fight animations in FE work. The back-and-forth associated with flynning doesn't really work with FE's "Unit A attacks Unit B. Unit B then proceeds to attack unit A. End scene."

2 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

That's awesome! I always find it interesting to see what people with experience with these kinds of things.

Thanks. Though, I should point out that I have only known about HEMA for a couple of years, and only started practicing it last summer. I am still very much a novice.

2 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

Thank you for sharing this! I have a strong love of history, so learning about these kind of things always interests me. And I always did like the idea of Fire Emblem fights pulling moves like these, even if the end result would be largely cosmetic.

You're welcome. It's just something I have thought could be used in an FE game for a while. FE wouldn't even be the only game to include it. The Mordhau has appeared in games like For Honor, Kingdom Come: Deliverance, and an upcoming game called, funny enough, Mordhau.

It's funny; for a long time, there was a myth that Medieval European swords were basically blunt clubs (which is in no way true), and yet, often people hear about half-swording and Mordhau and think, "That's crazy! Wouldn't you cut your hands?"

EDIT: A couple things I would like to point out regarding authenticity in video games:

1. The game developers at Nintendo probably know next-to-nothing about historical fighting, and yet, Link, despite being an amateur in most Legend of Zelda games, is probably the best sword-and-shield fighter in video game history (spin attacks and jump attacks aside). In most games, he actually keeps his shield in front of him the whole time, even when attacking. More than that, he also changes the angle of his shield when attacking, in order to protect his sword-hand. That is very accurate, especially since most video game characters stupidly just throw their shields behind themselves when attacking for no reason. If soldiers, knights and/or generals get shields in the next FE game, I would like to see them keep their shields in front of them when attacking.

2. The way that swords are thrown in Awakening and Fates: straight forward like a thrown spear, rather than end-over-end, like a throwing axe, is exactly how swords would have been thrown historically, though throwing a sword was almost never actually done in a duel situation due to being very easy to parry, and was more likely to be done on the battlefield if anywhere. Here's a video about it:

Spoiler

Edited February 17 by vanguard333

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There are appeals to both over-the-top and more grounded combat animations, but I think I lean a little bit more to the former. I really liked most of the animations in Fates, except some of the weirder motions like Oni Savage's silly dash through an opponent, because it didn't look that cool to me.

I didn't like how the Echoes criticals for the most part were extremely tame. They, mostly using camera work to build up the hype, but the actual attack itself is very simple and generic, so you just end up feeling disappointed sometimes. The Falcon Knight critical in Fates is just a single hit, but it involved the pegasus (that's usually constantly in motion) landing and the rider aiming their naginata, then it was one very fast thrust, using the whole body of both the rider and the mount. Then look at the Echoes' Falcon Knight crit. The startup is the Falcon Knight twirling their lance over their head, with the camera changing to a frontal shot before the critical freeze, then after the critical quote, it's just one very fast stab, with the pegasus tilted sideways. It was over before in less than a second despite all that build up.

Tempo and momentum are the most important things, though it's a bit hard to describe. The Songstress animations in Fates sort of embody what I mean. Azura's movements have a very deliberate rhythm that is neither fast nor slow, and when combined with her slightly unorthodox swings, there was an elegance and whimsicality to her animations. The Falcon Knight finisher in Echoes is also really great. A quick stab, followed by a pause, then a spinning slash with the axe head of the lance to lop their head off.

Perhaps a mix between the two would be good, depending on the class, but I'd like criticals to be a bit more elaborate either way.

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I'm definitely pro "over the top" it to me what makes Fire Emblem "Fire Emblem" grounded as standard attacks go are ok but as crits needs to be flashy. Echoes crits were boring as hell and I love that Fates introduced finishers.

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Flashy stuff for criticals please. I think the GBA had to keep everything over the top as a result of its tiny screen and perhaps the criticism that the SNES games have hard to follow battle scenes as units engage in close combat with subtle dodge animations. So GBA has big letters saying MISS and NO DAMAGE to confirm for the viewer that that was an attack.

Echoes has excellent fight choreography. But I do object to leaving the flashy stuff just for higher tiered classes. Yes Dread Fighters should be crazy to watch, but I have a hard time believing these novice, un-promoted units aren't above a little showboating. Let them have some impractical flips and spins. That's what makes them inexperienced fighters.

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I choose realistic with over the top criticals without actually reading what flynning is. It didn't change my opinion, but it did make me wish Fire Emblem included more banter with their boss fights. At most you will get one extra bit of dialogue if it is someone related to that boss in a way, but I'd like to see some actual back and forth in a cutscene or something haha.

It can be... although I will say that, once people know more about how actual historic fights were done, they (myself included) tend to start noticing more and more things in Hollywood fights and thinking, "Well; that's just ridiculous." Once you learn more about historical fighting, a lot more movie fight scenes that once seemed cool start seeming ridiculous. On the plus side, when a movie or TV fight does something actually authentic that is also cool, the more it can be appreciated.

When I was saying no to flynning, I was saying no because I feel it doesn't really fit an FE game, especially with the way fight animations in FE work. The back-and-forth associated with flynning doesn't really work with FE's "Unit A attacks Unit B. Unit B then proceeds to attack unit A. End scene."

I enjoy those kind of fights both ironically and unironically. Ironically, because as you said, it's very easy to notice moments where the fight could have ended much earlier, and the choreography can get very ridiculous. Unironically, because these fights are still enjoyable when done well, and it's a nice tidbit in the history of cinema.

As I said earlier though, more authentic fights are always more interesting and engaging to watch, even if they (understandably) don't last always last that long. About the only time flynning is used nowadays anyway is to A. show that a person is toying with their opponent and not taking the fight all that seriously or B. to show that the wielder is very inexperienced and ignorant about sword fighting. That, or it's Star Wars, which has the excuse of lightsabers being able to cut through just about anything, making blocking much more important in that universe.

As for Fire Emblem, I think that some motions can be used inbetween the moment when Unit A attacks and Unit B retaliates, such as a few parries/blocks, punches, kicks, and/or throws (and maybe the environment, although I wonder how much work that would put on the animators). Nothing major, it could just make the fight even more interesting to look at.

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

You're welcome. It's just something I have thought could be used in an FE game for a while. FE wouldn't even be the only game to include it. The Mordhau has appeared in games like For Honor, Kingdom Come: Deliverance, and an upcoming game called, funny enough, Mordhau.

It's funny; for a long time, there was a myth that Medieval European swords were basically blunt clubs (which is in no way true), and yet, often people hear about half-swording and Mordhau and think, "That's crazy! Wouldn't you cut your hands?"

It's interesting to see the move in any videogame, really, as the Adorea Olomouc video was the first time I had seen that move, and I went from "wait, that's possible?" to "huh, that move actually makes sense, now that I think about it" pretty quickly.

About the only game that I've played where the weapon combat was pretty realistic is Mount & Blade, which eschews any fancy swordplay or parrying and simply goes for crude, yet meaningful strikes that are always damaging, with many subtleties in how damage is calculated, such as whether you're running, retreating, or standing still when attacking, as well as what weapon you're wielding and how it was swung (i.e. a sword does slashing damage when swung and piercing damage when thrusted. A spear does piercing damage when thrusted, but blunt damage when swung, etc). A shield blocks just about any attack (aside from a skilled archer aiming for the feet/head), but there's a small yet vital delay when attacking and defending, while blocking without a shield is much faster, but also much riskier as you have to block in the correct direction as well as at the right time so your opponent doesn't just swing in a different direction. That, and armor ranges from "it will save your life" to "it can really be that useless."

I actually didn't know about that myth, though then again, the only swords I've actually done some research on were claymores and Zweihanders, and it'd be odd if they didn't cut something when they struck.

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

EDIT: A couple things I would like to point out regarding authenticity in video games:

1. The game developers at Nintendo probably know next-to-nothing about historical fighting, and yet, Link, despite being an amateur in most Legend of Zelda games, is probably the best sword-and-shield fighter in video game history (spin attacks and jump attacks aside). In most games, he actually keeps his shield in front of him the whole time, even when attacking. More than that, he also changes the angle of his shield when attacking, in order to protect his sword-hand. That is very accurate, especially since most video game characters stupidly just throw their shields behind themselves when attacking for no reason. If soldiers, knights and/or generals get shields in the next FE game, I would like to see them keep their shields in front of them when attacking.

2. The way that swords are thrown in Awakening and Fates: straight forward like a thrown spear, rather than end-over-end, like a throwing axe, is exactly how swords would have been thrown historically, though throwing a sword was almost never actually done in a duel situation due to being very easy to parry, and was more likely to be done on the battlefield if anywhere. Here's a video about it:

Reveal hidden contents

Huh, the more you know. I never actually noticed that characters in fiction that until you brought it up. And I agree, it would be awesome if shield wielding characters fought accurately during combat

And here I thought that move was based more in fiction than in fact. I wouldn't expect it pop up often, but many of the situations the guy mentioned (scavenging from from the battlefield, attacking a ranged fighter, bieng a climatic way to finish off a boss with their back turned) do seem common enough for it to appear a few times. On a similar, if unrelated note, it would also be cool that if duel wielding appeared, they would wield it with a dagger in one hand, sword in the other, as it has more historical authenticity than the more common two swords approach.

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As I said earlier though, more authentic fights are always more interesting and engaging to watch, even if they (understandably) don't last always last that long. About the only time flynning is used nowadays anyway is to A. show that a person is toying with their opponent and not taking the fight all that seriously or B. to show that the wielder is very inexperienced and ignorant about sword fighting. That, or it's Star Wars, which has the excuse of lightsabers being able to cut through just about anything, making blocking much more important in that universe.

I definitely agree with you there. More realistic fights are generally more interesting to watch, and, if film makers are worried about the length of the fight, there are things they can do; for instance, both characters wearing armour. Swords cannot cut through mail or plate armour, and that can extend the fight. The duel in Prince Caspian is a good example: their sword strikes are useless, so they start relying on other things, like shield bashes. Once they succeed in knocking each others' helmets off, both start aiming their swords at the exposed heads.

For a particular situation, look at close binds in movie and TV fights. Almost always, the two characters get their swords in a bind, yell at each other, and pull away. This is absolutely the worst thing you can do in that situation. In a certain duel in the new Castlevania show, the two characters get into a close bind... and one of them actually does something about it in a way that calls back to a previous episode, making the whole thing more enjoyable and entertaining to watch than if they had just yelled at each other and backed away.

1 hour ago, Hawkwing said:

As for Fire Emblem, I think that some motions can be used inbetween the moment when Unit A attacks and Unit B retaliates, such as a few parries/blocks, punches, kicks, and/or throws (and maybe the environment, although I wonder how much work that would put on the animators). Nothing major, it could just make the fight even more interesting to look at.

I think I see what you mean; they could, for instance, change the "miss" animation from the enemy dodging to the enemy parrying?

2 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

2. And here I thought that move was based more in fiction than in fact. I wouldn't expect it pop up often, but many of the situations the guy mentioned (scavenging from from the battlefield, attacking a ranged fighter, being a climatic way to finish off a boss with their back turned) do seem common enough for it to appear a few times. On a similar, if unrelated note, it would also be cool that if duel wielding appeared, they would wield it with a dagger in one hand, sword in the other, as it has more historical authenticity than the more common two swords approach.

I agree, or even sword in one hand and a buckler (a type of small shield that could be carried anywhere) in the other, which was far more common in the medieval period. Parrying daggers were more for things like rapier and dagger duels, or wakizashi and katana if your name is Miyamoto Musashi (a famous Japanese swordmaster).

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Generally I prefer animations that are realistic and make sense for a given unit, HOWEVER at the same time I really enjoy some of the over-the-top animations like the Hector Copter, the Warrior Crit in the GBA games, the execution of the Collossus skill, Marksmen leaping sky high to perform Deadshot in FE10. So ultimately I would like a combination between realism and over-the-top with perhaps leaning more on the side of realism and saving over-the-top for crits and kill skills.

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I'd want the normal attack animations to be quick and brutally efficient. This does not mean, however, that the normal attacks can't be flashy. That initial tiff between Chrom and Validar at the start of Awakening (First 20 seconds or so of this clip) was actually a pretty good example; they were gunning for one another, and it showed how a magic-user would actually operate in melee with someone swinging a sword in their face. But it remained visually appealing; particularly the magic effects, of course, but also Chrom's movements. A critical or skill activation would cause a brief Matrix-slowdown to build up tension for the beatdown that was about to happen (and to allow the one triggering it to get their snarky crit quote in edgewise), followed by a finisher-type animation that was over-the-top and at impractical levels of flashiness.

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In the old days, I used to love crazy animations (the GBA Sage crit being a favorite). Over time however, they and critical quotes lose their luster. Henry saying "Have some death!" the first 100 times, good, maybe once in while thereafter, but it loses its specialness if its all pervasive forever. I still watch the crit-Mastery collection videos on YouTube for Radiant Dawn, but not so much.

Nowadays I'm too impatient 99% of the time nowadays to bother with having animations on, they're just too slow for me. Call it the effects of growing up.

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I'm also fairly sure I don't want the quotes accompanying skill activations or attacks that will not result in KOing the target. I only want to hear the character being a smartass if the game's already calculated with certainty that they've got that Last Hit 100% ready to back up their banter.