*sigh* I'm guessing these people get carried away in their enthusiasm and don't read do research on writing icons beforehand. I still say, Gospodi pomiluy nas, nyne i prisno i vo veki vekov!

I wish this could explain all these wayward images, but it doesn't. Earlier in the thread I criticized work by an Orthodox priest, who has made a name for himself as an "authority" on iconography, with books published, lecture tours and iconographic workshops. There is no justification for his position as a priest to confer authority on what he paints.

Likewise, there are plenty of Orthodox iconographers who have knowingly and willfully painted images which cannot be called icons. I am only a small voice speaking out against such vanities, but I hope that I can make a bit of difference in showing people what is good and proper and what is not.

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For example, until now I wasn't aware that two of the icons brought up here, Theotokos holding the World and St. Joseph holding the Christ child were uncanonical, seeing as they're on my icon corner- though technically, being Catholic, I suppose neither is my byzantised Divine Mercy either.

For example, until now I wasn't aware that two of the icons brought up here, Theotokos holding the World and St. Joseph holding the Christ child were uncanonical, seeing as they're on my icon corner- though technically, being Catholic, I suppose neither is my byzantised Divine Mercy either.

You're quite right, the image of Christ Divine Mercy is not a proper Orthodox icon.

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Well, I could figure that- considering it's not an Orthodox icon in the first place. Then again, I'm not Orthodox, so I suppose I'd have to check the canons of my own church to see if it's alright to venerate that icons. Goodness knows my icon of my patron, St. Anthony of Padua, is not Orthodox.

This is the strangest riza I've sever seen... Are those ripped-abs torsoes flying in the sky?

No, they're not. They are votive tokens, put on the icon either to ask for healing through prayer to the Mother of God, or in gratitude for prayers answered. These pressed-metal tokens come in a variety of forms, including hands, eyes, legs, and whole bodies. This custom seems to be far more prevalent among Greeks and Orthodox from the Balkans, less so with Russians. The Greek word for these offerings is tamata, singular tama (vow).

There's written "Sura Maryam" - like the title of one Coran's suras, but it's a total mix (symbols of Christianity, Judaism and Islam on the crown), but - iIslam is a mix of various religions, isn't it?However, as we know, generally it's prohibited do depict somebody in Islam, so that's very strange picture

« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 11:09:19 AM by Dominika »

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There's written "Sura Maryam" - like the title of one Coran's suras, but it's a total mix (symbols of Christianity, Judaism and Islam on the crown), but - isn't Islam a mix of various religions?However, as we know, generally it's prohibetd do depict somebody in Islam, so that's very strange picture

Quite right about the prohibition of depicting holy ones. And if it is meant to be an Islamic picture, the woman's dress and expression falls rather short of their standards of modesty.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 11:08:14 AM by LBK »

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This is known as The Word Made Flesh, and praying to it is said to help in childbirth. It's of western origin, which has come into Orthodoxy through those regions straddling Roman Catholic west and Orthodox east.

A far better icon in expressing the Incarnation is the Mother of God of the Sign (Platytera, Znamennaya). No need for uncovered hair, and other features and omissions of the posted image which diminish its canonicity.

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There's written "Sura Maryam" - like the title of one Coran's suras, but it's a total mix (symbols of Christianity, Judaism and Islam on the crown), but - iIslam is a mix of various religions, isn't it?However, as we know, generally it's prohibited do depict somebody in Islam, so that's very strange picture

Even stranger since Judaism either regards Mary as mythical or a harlot, or a mythical harlot, but everything except someone they give a fig about.

Oh Gospodi, our iconographers seem to get stranger and stranger. At least they had the Theotokos depicted with the stars of virignity...

This is, unfortunately, what happens when artists, usually, but not exclusively, non-Orthodox, painting religious subjects in an "iconographic" style have no idea of what an icon is or is not. The non-realistic, abstracted painting style is only a part of what makes an image an icon, and worthy of veneration.

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The St Mary Magdalene that Dominika posted is by the notorious Jesuit priest, Fr William Hart McNichols. A trademark of his paintings is his love of "innovation", all too often with a sociopolitical message promoting his causes du jour. His artistic style is also quite creepy, at least to me.

The Holy Protection painting fills me with dismay - blatant Ukrainian nationalism hijacking the Mother of God and one of her feasts to promote its cause. Ghastly.

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It's in an Orthodox Chapel at Dachau. Many Orthodox were sent to Dachau, and the imagery is due to the fact that the camp was liberated on Pascha.

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May 6 (23 April on the Orthodox calendar) was the day of Pascha, Orthodox Easter. In a cell block used by Catholic priests to say daily Mass, several Greek, Serbian and Russian priests and one Serbian deacon, wearing makeshift vestments made from towels of the SS guard, gathered with several hundred Greek, Serbian and Russian prisoners to celebrate the Paschal Vigil. A prisoner named Rahr described the scene:

In the entire history of the Orthodox Church there has probably never been an Easter service like the one at Dachau in 1945. Greek and Serbian priests together with a Serbian deacon adorned the make-shift 'vestments' over their blue and gray-striped prisoners' uniforms. Then they began to chant, changing from Greek to Slavonic, and then back again to Greek. The Easter Canon, the Easter Sticheras—everything was recited from memory. The Gospel—In the beginning was the Word—also from memory. And finally, the Homily of Saint John—also from memory. A young Greek monk from the Holy Mountain stood up in front of us and recited it with such infectious enthusiasm that we shall never forget him as long as we live. Saint John Chrysostomos himself seemed to speak through him to us and to the rest of the world as well!

There is a Russian Orthodox chapel at the camp today, and it is well known for its icon of Christ leading the prisoners out of the camp gates.

It's in an Orthodox Chapel at Dachau. Many Orthodox were sent to Dachau, and the imagery is due to the fact that the camp was liberated on Pascha.

Quote

May 6 (23 April on the Orthodox calendar) was the day of Pascha, Orthodox Easter. In a cell block used by Catholic priests to say daily Mass, several Greek, Serbian and Russian priests and one Serbian deacon, wearing makeshift vestments made from towels of the SS guard, gathered with several hundred Greek, Serbian and Russian prisoners to celebrate the Paschal Vigil. A prisoner named Rahr described the scene:

In the entire history of the Orthodox Church there has probably never been an Easter service like the one at Dachau in 1945. Greek and Serbian priests together with a Serbian deacon adorned the make-shift 'vestments' over their blue and gray-striped prisoners' uniforms. Then they began to chant, changing from Greek to Slavonic, and then back again to Greek. The Easter Canon, the Easter Sticheras—everything was recited from memory. The Gospel—In the beginning was the Word—also from memory. And finally, the Homily of Saint John—also from memory. A young Greek monk from the Holy Mountain stood up in front of us and recited it with such infectious enthusiasm that we shall never forget him as long as we live. Saint John Chrysostomos himself seemed to speak through him to us and to the rest of the world as well!

There is a Russian Orthodox chapel at the camp today, and it is well known for its icon of Christ leading the prisoners out of the camp gates.

I think we need to be careful with some things that we condemn so harshly on this thread. Our Church celebrates the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee for a reason.

It is not Pharisaical to state what is the tradition of the Church and what harm is done by gross deviation therefrom. Shall we have no rules at all? Shall there be no order in the Church? Are there not limits? Is there not a tradition?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

It's in an Orthodox Chapel at Dachau. Many Orthodox were sent to Dachau, and the imagery is due to the fact that the camp was liberated on Pascha.

Quote

May 6 (23 April on the Orthodox calendar) was the day of Pascha, Orthodox Easter. In a cell block used by Catholic priests to say daily Mass, several Greek, Serbian and Russian priests and one Serbian deacon, wearing makeshift vestments made from towels of the SS guard, gathered with several hundred Greek, Serbian and Russian prisoners to celebrate the Paschal Vigil. A prisoner named Rahr described the scene:

In the entire history of the Orthodox Church there has probably never been an Easter service like the one at Dachau in 1945. Greek and Serbian priests together with a Serbian deacon adorned the make-shift 'vestments' over their blue and gray-striped prisoners' uniforms. Then they began to chant, changing from Greek to Slavonic, and then back again to Greek. The Easter Canon, the Easter Sticheras—everything was recited from memory. The Gospel—In the beginning was the Word—also from memory. And finally, the Homily of Saint John—also from memory. A young Greek monk from the Holy Mountain stood up in front of us and recited it with such infectious enthusiasm that we shall never forget him as long as we live. Saint John Chrysostomos himself seemed to speak through him to us and to the rest of the world as well!

There is a Russian Orthodox chapel at the camp today, and it is well known for its icon of Christ leading the prisoners out of the camp gates.

I think we need to be careful with some things that we condemn so harshly on this thread. Our Church celebrates the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee for a reason.

It is not Pharisaical to state what is the tradition of the Church and what harm is done by gross deviation therefrom. Shall we have no rules at all? Shall there be no order in the Church? Are there not limits? Is there not a tradition?

Totally agree. Icons are not vehicles for promoting "causes", even "good" ones, and must certainly not be expressions of wishful thinking or historical revisionism.

What should have been commissioned for the Dachau chapel was a proper icon of the sainted martyrs and confessors who were incarcerated there, and those Orthodox with them, against the background of the camp buildings and other structures. Such an icon could have indeed featured Christ, either in a motif in the upper border of the icon, or in an upper corner, blessing the saints and inmates.

There are established iconographic conventions which determine how historical events are to be portrayed. It is a crying shame that these have not been followed in the creation of this painting.

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Totally agree. Icons are not vehicles for promoting "causes", even "good" ones, and must certainly not be expressions of wishful thinking or historical revisionism.

What should have been commissioned for the Dachau chapel was a proper icon of the sainted martyrs and confessors who were incarcerated there, and those Orthodox with them, against the background of the camp buildings and other structures. Such an icon could have indeed featured Christ, either in a motif in the upper border of the icon, or in an upper corner, blessing the saints and inmates.

That's the point and a good idea

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It's in an Orthodox Chapel at Dachau. Many Orthodox were sent to Dachau, and the imagery is due to the fact that the camp was liberated on Pascha.

Quote

May 6 (23 April on the Orthodox calendar) was the day of Pascha, Orthodox Easter. In a cell block used by Catholic priests to say daily Mass, several Greek, Serbian and Russian priests and one Serbian deacon, wearing makeshift vestments made from towels of the SS guard, gathered with several hundred Greek, Serbian and Russian prisoners to celebrate the Paschal Vigil. A prisoner named Rahr described the scene:

In the entire history of the Orthodox Church there has probably never been an Easter service like the one at Dachau in 1945. Greek and Serbian priests together with a Serbian deacon adorned the make-shift 'vestments' over their blue and gray-striped prisoners' uniforms. Then they began to chant, changing from Greek to Slavonic, and then back again to Greek. The Easter Canon, the Easter Sticheras—everything was recited from memory. The Gospel—In the beginning was the Word—also from memory. And finally, the Homily of Saint John—also from memory. A young Greek monk from the Holy Mountain stood up in front of us and recited it with such infectious enthusiasm that we shall never forget him as long as we live. Saint John Chrysostomos himself seemed to speak through him to us and to the rest of the world as well!

There is a Russian Orthodox chapel at the camp today, and it is well known for its icon of Christ leading the prisoners out of the camp gates.

I think we need to be careful with some things that we condemn so harshly on this thread. Our Church celebrates the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee for a reason.

It is not Pharisaical to state what is the tradition of the Church and what harm is done by gross deviation therefrom. Shall we have no rules at all? Shall there be no order in the Church? Are there not limits? Is there not a tradition?

I didn't say that, did I?

There is a difference between preserving propriety when it comes to icons and Pharisaical condemnation and searching every icon for slight error to call out and condemn. I am sure that most of the people in Russia that painted icons that include God the Father are far more holy than I am. Are icons of God the Father wrong and to be discouraged? Yes. Can God work miracles and inspire through imperfect things? Yes.

A lot of the icons in this thread disgust me. That being said, a lot of the utter condemnations of even slight iconographic error AND their iconographers is just as saddening.

It's in an Orthodox Chapel at Dachau. Many Orthodox were sent to Dachau, and the imagery is due to the fact that the camp was liberated on Pascha.

Quote

May 6 (23 April on the Orthodox calendar) was the day of Pascha, Orthodox Easter. In a cell block used by Catholic priests to say daily Mass, several Greek, Serbian and Russian priests and one Serbian deacon, wearing makeshift vestments made from towels of the SS guard, gathered with several hundred Greek, Serbian and Russian prisoners to celebrate the Paschal Vigil. A prisoner named Rahr described the scene:

In the entire history of the Orthodox Church there has probably never been an Easter service like the one at Dachau in 1945. Greek and Serbian priests together with a Serbian deacon adorned the make-shift 'vestments' over their blue and gray-striped prisoners' uniforms. Then they began to chant, changing from Greek to Slavonic, and then back again to Greek. The Easter Canon, the Easter Sticheras—everything was recited from memory. The Gospel—In the beginning was the Word—also from memory. And finally, the Homily of Saint John—also from memory. A young Greek monk from the Holy Mountain stood up in front of us and recited it with such infectious enthusiasm that we shall never forget him as long as we live. Saint John Chrysostomos himself seemed to speak through him to us and to the rest of the world as well!

There is a Russian Orthodox chapel at the camp today, and it is well known for its icon of Christ leading the prisoners out of the camp gates.

There is a difference between preserving propriety when it comes to icons and Pharisaical condemnation and searching every icon for slight error to call out and condemn. I am sure that most of the people in Russia that painted icons that include God the Father are far more holy than I am. Are icons of God the Father wrong and to be discouraged? Yes. Can God work miracles and inspire through imperfect things? Yes.

Would you regard creative tweaking of prayers and hymns to serve a cause as acceptable? If so, why?

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There is a difference between preserving propriety when it comes to icons and Pharisaical condemnation and searching every icon for slight error to call out and condemn. I am sure that most of the people in Russia that painted icons that include God the Father are far more holy than I am. Are icons of God the Father wrong and to be discouraged? Yes. Can God work miracles and inspire through imperfect things? Yes.

Would you regard creative tweaking of prayers and hymns to serve a cause as acceptable? If so, why?

So the Church has never altered the Liturgy to combat the views of Heretics?

It's in an Orthodox Chapel at Dachau. Many Orthodox were sent to Dachau, and the imagery is due to the fact that the camp was liberated on Pascha.

Quote

May 6 (23 April on the Orthodox calendar) was the day of Pascha, Orthodox Easter. In a cell block used by Catholic priests to say daily Mass, several Greek, Serbian and Russian priests and one Serbian deacon, wearing makeshift vestments made from towels of the SS guard, gathered with several hundred Greek, Serbian and Russian prisoners to celebrate the Paschal Vigil. A prisoner named Rahr described the scene:

In the entire history of the Orthodox Church there has probably never been an Easter service like the one at Dachau in 1945. Greek and Serbian priests together with a Serbian deacon adorned the make-shift 'vestments' over their blue and gray-striped prisoners' uniforms. Then they began to chant, changing from Greek to Slavonic, and then back again to Greek. The Easter Canon, the Easter Sticheras—everything was recited from memory. The Gospel—In the beginning was the Word—also from memory. And finally, the Homily of Saint John—also from memory. A young Greek monk from the Holy Mountain stood up in front of us and recited it with such infectious enthusiasm that we shall never forget him as long as we live. Saint John Chrysostomos himself seemed to speak through him to us and to the rest of the world as well!

There is a Russian Orthodox chapel at the camp today, and it is well known for its icon of Christ leading the prisoners out of the camp gates.

There is a difference between preserving propriety when it comes to icons and Pharisaical condemnation and searching every icon for slight error to call out and condemn. I am sure that most of the people in Russia that painted icons that include God the Father are far more holy than I am. Are icons of God the Father wrong and to be discouraged? Yes. Can God work miracles and inspire through imperfect things? Yes.

Would you regard creative tweaking of prayers and hymns to serve a cause as acceptable? If so, why?

So the Church has never altered the Liturgy to combat the views of Heretics?

There is a huge difference between the liturgical proclamations against heresy (such as the establishment of the feast of, and the writing of hymnography for, the Sunday of Orthodoxy), and, say, the use of "Creator, Liberator and Sustainer" as a baptismal Trinitarian formula. The former is necessary and established by the whole Church; the latter is the product of individualism motivated by worldly reasons.

The painting of "icons" which are, in essence, the personal musings and expressions of the artist or of the patrons who commissioned them are just as unacceptable and wrong as the false trinitarian formula I quoted.

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