Bethesda’s The Elder Scrolls Online, the MMO-ification of its popular fantasy-verse due early next year for PC and consoles, won’t just ask you to pony up $60 for a copy at the outset, it’ll reach into your wallet each and every month, the game’s director Matt Firor told GameStar this week.

Is the company nuts? Has it paid no attention to what wildly successful post-World of Warcraft MMOs like Guild Wars 2 are up to? Did it miss the Star Wars: The Old Republic memo? Can a subscription-based MMO survive the looming ennui of millions of content-starved gamers? Does it even care about gamers who don’t have dozens of hours to spend and $15 to burn every month?

While TIME Tech’s Matt Peckham thinks Bethesda hasn’t lost its mind, Jared Newman has already resigned himself to ignoring the game at launch. So the two of us decided to have a mild-mannered debate:

Jared: I just want to say up front that I am not a traditional MMO player. Never played World of Warcraft, dabbled in some free-to-play RPGs, really enjoyed Guild Wars. I was intrigued by The Elder Scrolls Online, as someone who enjoyed Oblivion and Skyrim. So I’m not used to paying $15 per month for an MMO.

But the other key detail is that I don’t have as much time for video games as I used to. I forsee being able to dedicate maybe five or six hours a month to a game like this. To me, Bethesda is basically saying “you’re not welcome.” And that’s a bummer.

Matt: I used to be the sort of gamer who had time to play MMOs like Ultima Online, Everquest and WoW, then I had a kid last summer, which means I’m now the sort of gamer who reminisces about when I used to have time to play games for more than five minutes a day on an iPhone. Laying those deficiencies aside, I’m sympathetic to what Bethesda’s after here with the monthly fee angle. The Elder Scrolls, which I’ve been playing since Arena, is — in theory anyway — about sticking you in a sandbox, blowing a whistle, then trying to stay as much out of your way as possible. The free-to-play model, which I have no problem with in games like Guild Wars 2 or Defense of the Ancients 2, doesn’t feel like the right approach, given what Firor and his team say they’re up to.

Bethesda

Jared: I suppose it’s worth clarifying at this point that when you say “free-to-play,” you’re referring to paying a flat, up-front cost, rather than a recurring fee. There are plenty of pure free-to-play MMOs, and yeah, that’s not something I’d be interested in from The Elder Scrolls. Still, I’m not sure why a subscription is more conducive to “staying as much out of your way as possible” than an up-front sticker price.

Matt: That’s a fair point: Why not charge $60 up front, then let players go wild? That seems reasonable, since it preserves the “100% access” model Firor’s touting (and it fits hand-in-glove with The Elder Scrolls‘ sandbox philosophy). I’m not a money guy, and I don’t want to speculate about the profit model there, but I’d worry, with a game as hypothetically vast as The Elder Scrolls Online purports to be, that without a monthly fee, the company gets into trouble down the road when it reaches whatever its audience saturation point is.

That said, it sounds like they’re already muddying the water: Firor says they’re adding a “real money” shop. He claims it’ll be for cosmetic stuff, e.g. duds, bling, etc. We won’t know until we see it in action, but if they firewall the gameplay, I guess I’m okay with that, too.

Jared: Yeah, I also hesitate to tell Bethesda how to run their business. They clearly think they can get a critical mass of users with a subscription on the strength of the Elder Scrolls name. (Though it’s worth noting that EA and BioWare thought the same with Star Wars: The Old Republic.)

My issue — and this applies to lots of subscription MMOs — is that there seems to be a missed opportunity to reach folks like me, who would be throwing their money down the toilet by locking into a subscription. Maybe there are additional payment models that could appeal to a wider group of people. Why not, for instance, charge $60 up to a certain level cap, then another chunk for high-level play? Or how about charging a flat-fee, plus a small subscription for advanced guild-related features? Or maybe just let people buy a bucket full of hours in the game. I feel like there has to be a better way for a game of this magnitude.

And by the way, none of those alternatives would have to preclude a subscription option. Make it work out financially for people who are definitely going to spend 100+ hours in the game, and the subscriptions will come. But I am not one of those people, and it’d be nice to have an alternative that doesn’t pressure me to get my money’s worth every month.

Bethesda

Matt: There may be a better model for the game down the road, once it finds its feet and audience depending. Think of all the games that shifted gears to a free-to-play model along the way (including World of Warcraft). I’d be surprised if Bethesda holds fast to the retail-plus-subscription model, especially if this thing winds up having legs.

It’ll depend in part on what Bethesda has tucked behind the game’s PR-gilded curtains. If TESO somehow reinvents the MMO (which, odds are it won’t), you might be willing to throw the monthly fee in the toilet when you can’t play, the way some do paying for a Netflix or a Hulu Plus or a cable subscription that’s barely used (but appreciated when needed). If, on the other hand, it’s just “World of Tamriel-Craft,” you’re probably just courting diehard Elder Scrolls fans after the honeymoon period — arguably a smaller audience than NCsoft’s capturing. And I get the sense Bethesda might be okay with that, at least out of the gate.

But the question we’re sort of circling is, “Who’s TESO for?” I’m sure — in fact, I actually know — some people who’d like Skyrim to be 90% shorter. For better or worse, it’s not that sort of game.

Jared: You’re right that plans could change, but it’s a missed opportunity to create buzz and get people excited if you’re shutting vast numbers of people out at launch. I hate to bring up Guild Wars over and over, but the fact that all my game-playing friends were talking about it and joining guilds together is what piqued my interest in the first place. I’ve had that feeling with other MMOs, but the subscription always held me back. So yeah, your question goes back to my original point: Whoever TESO is for, it’s not for me — someone who has otherwise enjoyed playing Elder Scrolls games in the past. Somehow I doubt that “subset of Elder Scrolls fans who would pay for a subscription MMO” is the audience Bethesda is shooting for.

Matt: Maybe Bethesda’s nuts to think it can do, with less iconic material, what BioWare couldn’t holding a license like Star Wars. Would players have burned as fast had BioWare been able to ante up content? That’s the question I’d put to Firor’s team: can they surf the “what do I do next?” curve without it feeling generic? If they can, and it’s not an anodyne grind-a-thon, you’d have your referendum, one way or another, on all these pet theories that The Old Republic failed because of the dearth of content, not the monthly tax.

Not to derail the conversation, but fees aside, my real issue with TESO is the notion that you can have an Elder Scrolls experience — which up to this point has involved perfecting the D&D power fantasy vibe solo — in an MMO. In Skyrim, you’re the frigging Dragonborn. In TESO, you’re some nobody the game’s going to lie to, probably a lot, about being the most important thing since sliced skooma. It’s not the monthly sub that turns me off to games like that; it’s games like that.

Jared: So it sounds like we’re nearing some kind of consensus, in terms of being generally concerned about the health of this game. You’re unsure if TESO can offer enough to justify the monthly subscription, and my issue’s that no matter how much the game offers, there’s no way I’m paying once a month for it. Particularly with the next console generation, I think there will be plenty of bar-raising MMO-like experiences that don’t require a subscription (Bungie’s Destiny and Ubisoft’s The Division, to name a couple) to hold my attention. I don’t need dragons and a skooma habit that much.

Matt: Consensus it is! You may disagree, but I do wish Bethesda the best of luck. It’d certainly be a shame to see something this iconic in gaming crash and burn, but then you look at The Old Republic and realize how fast things can get away from so-called triple-A developers in the crazy funhouse world of MMO-dom.

I played ESO in long term beta and then for a few months I had a subscription. Zenimax asked it's long term beta players to play to level 50 and beyond into veteran ranks and then turned around and gave no beta gift to these people, after several months of hard work and testing, of providing feedback, etc. People asked. Zenimax ignored, then put out an offer to Steam gamers for a Whiterun Wolfhound. They had those things but they chose to be selfish to people who were working hard for them for free. I knew when they did that, their game would fail because it demonstrated who they were, that they lack integrity and that they are incredibly greedy and willing to use people without thank yous.

It's hard to pay a sub fee to a company like that. You just don't want to give people like that your money. I did for a few months on the promise that an assassins guild and thieves guild would be added right away but it never was. We never got to the end content which is where the updates take place. So why would anyone pay a sub fee of $15 per month for a game that never updates content that is relevant to the gamer who prefers to take 50 levels at their pace?

The one good thing about ESO is that while it's not a feminist's wet dream, it takes one tiny step in the right direction. It's less sexist than other games out there, especially WoW. The sexism is still there though, in the lore. While it's a plus for ESO's female fan base, because of lack of content and the way Zenimax treats gamers, it's not enough to carry the game.

Zenimax Studios aren't infants in the gaming industry, they are virgins in the gaming industry. Without the Elder Scrolls name tag, they would have made a forgettable MMO. It's the creation and launch of the S.S. Minow with a misleading Titanic reputation. When too many people get on board it will sink. If the employees are just as green as Zenimax, it will come out as a high texture count Secret World, clunky, awkwardly animated, almost Korean cgi feel to it. They will need a subscription to make some of their money back, like FF ARR, they spent more than they could afford to, and need some money back fast. The ES series has a reputation of adding more and more limitations, if TESO online is a giant leap in limitations due to being an MMO the limitations might kill a game because while the reputation means they add more limitations, and adding more limitations will destroy the overall TES immersion. New limitations will be such as.

1. Quest lines won't lead to anything monumental, you won't be the leader of the mage guild, since everyone will be.

2. You won't own property or a house, or be able to build anything at all.

3. You don't get to form your own class, you get stuck with class presets you get to modify.

4. Even with superior art design, you can't create photo realistic graphics, on anything that requires streaming and constant number crunching.

That being stated, my expectations are that will be a huge flop, my hopes are that it will be something that will make a subscription cost seem in proportion really small in comparison with the enjoyment.

I've done it all before and i just can't stand games that i need to invest so much time to finally begin to actually enjoy the game. Level based games are what put me off. I want 100% skill based games, something that's all me. I got accepted into the BETA this weekend so i'll see if it's worth that much money.

I dont like the 15/month fee design... Id rather a steeper upfront buy in, or the option of F2P with less access/ monthly fee... for example Champions Online offers F2P, monthly fee, and/or upfront cost of around $200 for a lifetime membership. F2P charging money they way some do kind of ticks off because if they dont sell, the people who did pay suddenly are met with down servers for a game that will never come back. I am at a point with gaming that I really dont even want to consider blowing cash on a game that has no single player or stand alone features. Elder Scrolls Online is like the only pure MMO I might find myself splurging on and even then Id rather pay $200 one time then $15/month and wind up having to cancel my membership later if things get a little tight in my budget.

1) If you only have 5 hours A MONTH you aren't a gamer. You aren't even a casual gamer. No, we don't want you playing it, this game isn't for you. This game is made for mmo players, you can still play Skyrim, but this game is not made for you, its made for mmo players.

2) Those of you who complain about $15 are idiots, that's as clean and I can make that. You are paying for continual work on the game and server upkeep, in addition it helps keep kids and unemployed people out of the game, this is a good thing. I don't want the 13 year old brat playing, and I don't want the unemployed guy passing me because he has unlimited time to play. Funny thing is, the same people who complain about $15 a month most likely spend far more on tobacco and beer. $15 is nothing... its not even worth thinking about.

3) Certain MMO's failed because they plain and simple weren't good enough to keep customers, not because they cost a few dollars per month, suggesting that is stupid. I played SWTOR, I don't know a single person who quit and came back when the game went free, they quit because they were bored with the game and most went back to WoW, $15 in hand.

I finished with WoW a while ago, and I have been hungering for a good mmo to fill the void... non mmos just don't really cut it for me, I need to develop a character and play with others online. I hope ESO delivers but I'm not confident it will... maybe Everquest Next or Camelot Unchained will.

I'm glad its going sub as a gamer who has played a wide variety of MMO's. F2P never last and are unfair to people who wont spend 100 dollars every time he wants to do something. Jared needs to understand you can either pay for the game once a month or you can pay for it on the back side for bullcorn like mounts. I like paying once a month because that means that i'm gonna get some content and stubility which F2P can't offer .Guild Wars can't justify a sub because they dont offer super endgame content. World of Warcraft is super successful because of content, Knights of the Old Republic wasn't successful because you hit 50 and there was nothing to do. I will pay for TESO if there is something to do when i hit lvl cap. F2p are killing the MMO market so many of them come out just as fast as they fade away like a cheap shirt .

A subscription cost would put me off, but I'd happily buy the game and consider purchasing from a range of ethical microtransactions (key word here being ethical). I'd pay for the opportunity to customise my own house, maybe make some aesthetic changes to my armour or mount. Then there's the expansion content that I would be happy to consider paying for. I think if they went with this model, less people would be put off by the price at launch day.

Not that this model is without its disadvantages. Someone would have to spend development time on this content. I'm sure the folks at Bethesda and Zenimax have considered this already.

I don't think the people complaining actually know how MMOs work. MMOs don't work like console games do. The reason for the fee is so that the developers can keep putting out quality content every couple of months. The money will be used to expand on the game and probably thousands of other add ons that they decide to add. Thee people that keep coming up with new ideas need to be payed. Nobody wants to work for free. There is a reason why World of Warcraft is the most successful MMO. What I really don't get is how people can't afford to pay $15 a month. If your in that much trouble financially you need to get off your ass and stop playing video games. nguyentv.kevin said it best:

" You CAN afford $15/month.

Even if you had a measly 6 hours of game a month, eat out less once a month. Watch one movie less. Stay a night in. Bike to work for a week. Dig for sum change from your couch. Jeez its $15.

I'm still deciding whether to dump my money in Wildstar or TESO next summer. I'm thinking I'll go for a 1 year sub in W* and use that time to get enough gold for CREDD (free sub).

If I were a game company though, which I'm not, and if I knew anything about finance, which I don't, I'd say games recently are just milking their customers for the first few months with subs and then switching to b2p/f2p to raise the playerbase. I mean, I'll still pay the sub, but I'm losing faith quickly in this business model...

If the game is good, people will pay 15 a month for it. WoW still has 10 million subs paying 15 a month. If the game doesn't live up to the hype, then it will end up going F2P like The Old Republic did.

Two things. 1. Zenimax Online is the developer, not Bethesda. 2. There will be an open beta test for this game at some point, and I am sure there will be some sort of consensus by the time it ends on whether or not it is going to be a great game, and whether or not it will be worth the price. I have found the game is usually made or broken by the end of the beta (word gets around quickly). My main concern is will they have enough players 4-6 mo. into the launch of new generation of consoles to support it.

As an unsatisfied player of WoW, I think it's a great idea. For the longest time I (and I'd imagine many others), would like a great replacement/alternative to WoW. But despite of all the hype we hear of these "WoW killers", they always fall short. I think for a GREAT game, and I do mean great, I would gladly pay their price and leave WoW.

I would pay $30 a month for a game I knew of this type of quality. I would be extremely upset if the game was free to play, knowing how much it costs to make a game and keep new content coming. I don't think they should charge to buy the game, considering the amount of people playing this game is key, but since it is all on one server anyways and pvp will be amazing, it doesn't really matter if the game has 10 million subscribers or 2 million.

Anyone who is not going to play this game, just doesn't know what they are missing.

And again, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A FEE, If they can't afford to pay for the staff and the servers to be on the game. the game itself would have much less going on, much less content updates, much less balancing and patches.

Look at a game like SWTOR, once it went free to play, the patches they release are absolutely stupid.

Here's my deal. I've been a huge ES fan since Morrowind and became a Bethesda fan after Fall Out 3. Now I'll eat up practically everything they throw at me, Horse armor included :P With that said, I've never gotten into MMOs, I'm just not a competitive player. That's probably what lured me into ES in the 1st place, but becuase I'm in love with ES lore, I was willing to give this one a shot. Although, the cost is wearing my descion down or at least I will not buy it untill solid quarter of critic reviews and fan feed back. The other thing holding me back would be the fact that I cannot expect this ES game to be anywhere like the ones I grew up loving. Being that it's developed by a different team. Not saying that's a bad thing. These guys are probably cherry picked for the MMO title, but still, there will be a flavor missing from the original games for sure. So in the end, I couldn't bring myself to spend $85.00 plus tax right off the bat just to try a game I might end up getting bored of or not liking. I will wait and see how it all pans out.

I wouldn't have minded a one time payment of £40+, or a monthly subscription of £9, but both at once? I had planned to try ESO for one month, but I'm not spending £40+ to try out a game that I'd have to pay for every month anyway.

Also, how much is Bethesda contributing to the development of ESO? I thought it was just Zenimax Online, but I haven't really been following it.

This is so retarded. Unless your a child living off your parents, you CAN afford $15/month.Even if you had a measly 6 hours of game a month, eat out less once a month. Watch one movie less. Stay a night in. Bike to work for a week. Dig for sum change from your couch. Jeez its $15.

What game are you talking about -- wrong on so many counts. I still see tons of people every time I logon, WvW is very active, and I've never spent a dime on the cash shop and had zero problems leveling or competing since you can't buy game changing gear/weapons via real money. (just novelty items, armor skins, etc)

@jtc3400 This is elder scrolls.. not some generic MMO. They need too keep the combat freedom you had in the previous games and throw out the MMO norm of combat fighting. Where you basically spam your skills on a predetermined locked system. When I was using a bow it felt like I was restricted too about 10 yards, and had no freedom in what range I chose to fight with it. Previous games I could time my shots on a moving target 100 yards away and hit. This game, I don't have that choice at all.

@kalithas This tired old argument again? People say this crap about so much. It's not that people cannot afford $15/month, it's that they don't want to pay it. You figure $100 for the game since most people will buy the good version that actually gives you the ability to play as an Imperial. Then you tack on $15/month for 2 years and you're already up to $460. Add to that the fact that they have a "pay to win" store like some cheap free to play game and the fact that it's separated into 3 servers and you've got a game doomed to failure. The consoles have tiny install bases and a tiny number of each install base will be interested in this game. This game will be free to play inside of a year, they've already got the store set up for it. That's no coincidence.

also forgot to mentions , ppls play game for enjoyment , fun , pass some times - I don't think most pps will search out some jobs for a game every month to earn some dollar. if u say if u cant pay then don't play , yea about that many ppls will sadly do that and take interest with other mmo with most likely same content , some will try hard and best to hang up there per month then give up ect ect

so its dat easy ??come our country - it have billions of population think different then u, and also there are like 57 country same or less then us.

u need graduates ect for a job they aren't free also student have to pass most of their time in study , they manage their precious time hardly and with lot of suffering to play some game.80%+ probably don't have the time for

-''Even if you had a measly 6 hours of game a month, eat out less once a month. Watch one movie less. Stay a night in. Bike to work for a week. Dig for sum change from your couch. Jeez its $15. ''

I understand, if ur not a high school student or not a under graduate , not from a family where parents never allow u to go and find job for some game- skipping your study , not a citizen of a country where u can just look for a new job per month for some dollar and they just wait for u to come up and give their money for one day jobs.

I like the paying concept for Dota 2 /LoL with buy game once and pay for items equipment ect, [ dota 2 - LoL are the one of best and top also raising mmo game ] i hope skyrim community also understand this.

@viceiceman is this is a real question? So someone who is insanely busy with things like work and family, but loves hiking, biking, reading, gaming,....whatever... shouldn't bother because they're free time is so limited? Isn't that the point of free time? Doing something you enjoy???

@therealdude I agree. I played WoW for six years. I loved and still do love the game, but it just eventually got old. I thought The Old Republic would be the game to take the throne but it fell way short and it turned into F2P. If ESO is good, I will pay for it. If it falls flat then it will turn F2P in time also.

I would also like to say that the reason SWTOR failed, is not because they charged at first. Its because they spent far too much money, over 100 million on just the voice acting and story aspect of an MMO. Although it sounds like something someone would need (if you didn't know how MMO's and PVP based games worked), game content, versatility, pvp, balance and social connectivity are what an mmo needs.

Game Content - They have some of the largest most detailed maps ever in an RPG, added with the fact that people will be able to own pvp locations and siege territories and even become an emperor.

Versatility - Lets see, there isn't only 4 classes to choose from at the start (Swtor, why would you make only 4 classes). You do choose a base race (12 choices, which actually matter) and a base class which you customize by changing what a class actually is. Eliminating cool downs, eliminates stupid macro's. You can even customize the way your spells work.

PVP - An entire map, that allows clans to take over territory, allows players to use siege weapons.

Balance - extremely balanced, because the classes are customizable with features that everyone has access too.

Social Connectivity - Everyone is on the same server, so there is no problem with finding your friend to play with. You can play with 2 of your friends or 103 at the same time.

But yea Jared, Matt, and whoever else thinks this company doesn't know what they are doing, go play the Wii, it is a cheaper system...

Additional:Money isn't a problem, the problem is buying a £40+ game without even knowing if I'll like it or not, and then if I do I have to pay £9 a month to play it when I probably won't have the time to play enough to make it worthwhile (though I presume you can cancel the subscription or pay for a certain month only). A one time payment, I could play it whenever at no extra cost. Monthly, I could pay for a month just so I can see if I like it or not (without the upfront £40+).

I would like to point out that if I try it and like it, then I would buy the game and pay £9 for a month when could spend hours on it. I just see this as unlikely, as I'm not a big MMO fan, but I do like the Elder Scrolls very much.

@MichaelZdarsky The problem I had with ToR was that after level 50 it just fell flat and couldn't hold my attention. I thought it was going to be great because in the open betas the leveling was just fabulous, the best of any MMO I have ever seen. But the problem with one weekend betas is that people didn't get to see the high level content, so when the actual game released it plateaued very quickly and then fell short once people began hitting level 50.

Do you completely finish your meal every time you eat out? Do you pay attention to every trailer, every moment of a movie every time you watch one?Do you go to your run of the mill amusement park from opening all the way until closing to maximize your moneys worth?

You maybe do, but at the end of the day, its $15/Month. $0.50 cents a day. Not a mortgage payment. Even if you play one hour a week (6 hours a month like the poster of this ridiculous article) its 1.5 hours of entertainment had for $3.75/week. Much cheaper than any meal, movie or whatever entertainment you can have if you were to go out.