True, stack and reach are not perfect when comparing bikes across multiple manufacturers, but it's better than relying solely on top tube length and head tube length. ...I find this spreadsheet handy for getting a general idea for what a different bike might do to my positioning. It takes into account other things mentioned, like headset top caps and spacers:

Here is a comparison of your size 60 Madone to a size 60 Domane. I had to make a few assumptions in my inputs (21mm = stem stack divided by 2, 10mm of spacers under stem, 17mm tall headset top cap, 84/6 stem, had to make the Madone fork 370mm and the Domane fork 382mm to get the stack/reach numbers to match those published by Trek):

You could run the same 100mm stem without any spacers, and you would end up with the handlebars about 12mm higher and just under 12mm closer to you.

Thanks so much again. That spreadsheet is really handy, will be using that for sure. Your posts have give me a lot to think about for sure.

I knew this would be the case, but its a bit disappointing to look at the list of frames that will work. Not actually "race weapons". Even though my position might not come across as particularly race'y - I do race a lot, train 450km+ a week etc.

Will start plugging more frames into that spreadsheet and see what I can come up with.

If I were in your shoes, I'd find a nice Merckx EMX-3 frameset in size 54 and use about 15mm of spacers with a 100mm stem. That would give a stack similar to your Trek with a 10mm shorter reach. Second choice would be the Bianchi Infinito.

If I were in your shoes, I'd find a nice Merckx EMX-3 frameset in size 54 and use about 15mm of spacers with a 100mm stem. That would give a stack similar to your Trek with a 10mm shorter reach. Second choice would be the Bianchi Infinito.

The EMX-3 does look like a nice frame. I should have clarified. I don't actually need to go shorter. The reach on my Trek is good at the moment. I do like the idea of going "one size down" in most frames allowing me to run a bit longer stem, but the downside is clearly more spacers to get the stack right.

It's amazing using that spreadsheet how much the reach can change just by a 1 degree change in seat tube angle. Put in a Ritte Vlaanderen in XXL (210mm HT, 590mm TT) and it wasnt until i put in the 73.5 seat angle, compared to 72.7 on my Trek, that the reach blew out a bit (408.7 RE compared to 395 RE on the Trek).

Also looked at a 61cm Bianchi Oltre, 391.64 RE, but 600.59 ST (also a huge dent in my wallet!)

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