Dankoviich wrote:Very cool and I kind of figured as much just had to ask This guide has been a huge asset to me as I do not have the time to crunch all these numbers myself. Thanks to Theck as well as his numbers have also been very useful.

Another question I wanted to ask is do you have a base stam number you like for FL normal and heroic content? I am at about 175k with block cap (using a mastery elixir as opposed to stam flask) and 5% hit/12 exp (I like a to carry a little bit of threat stats and to me giving up ~2-3% dodge/parry for hit/exp caps against lvl 85 mobs which are the usual level of adds seems like a decent trade off). This puts me around 195k raid buffed which seems ideal for content so far but I wanted to get your opinion on it.

It really depends on if your healers are happy. It sounds okay to me, but it's more important that it's okay to them.

Vasilissa wrote:This guide is great although as far as I can read it's based on getting 4T12 pieces. Is it really worth getting 4T12 even though tier pieces have quite huge pool of threat stats?

I don't recommend four tier pieces at all. In fact, I explicitly ignore the value of tier bonuses when ranking items. If a tier piece is listed high, it's because it's that good all by itself. If you want to go for the tier set, you can look at the relative rankings of each tier piece to decide which ones to use and which one to skip.

Do keep in mind, though, that I recommend for combat table coverage, and all pieces have been gemmed per the mastery-heavy strategy, and reforged for mastery or dodge/parry, as per my item enhancement guide. So the pieces with mastery/threat become pieces with mastery/threat/dodge and do a decent job of combat table coverage in the absence of a better mastery/dodge piece.

Anyway, I love this list, allows me to quickly check whether to roll for an upgrade or what to buy etc.EDIT: NVM, posted about porcelain crab but then realized it was discussed already in the thread. Although I'd like to add that I've noticed it's ICD to line up somewhat nicely with Holy Shield (Yes, I'm one of those lazy people who macroed it to CS/HotR), atleast it seems to me that whenever I got the crab proc, I also have HS up. Just some food for thought.

shaak wrote:I don't understand how the Ruthless cape is ranked above the Mantle of Patience, I just compared them and lost .24% avoidance. Surely 59 stamina and 60 armor isn't worth that much of a avoidance loss?

I have to echo this sentiment. I just can't see how losing 134 dodge is made up for by 26 mastery, 59 stamina and 61 armor. Honestly, this ranking casts doubt on the methodology of this entire guide.

I don't remember the exact weights being used but I think the guide rates Mastery ~3 times as valuable as avoidance, and stamina about ~1.5 times as valuable. That's pretty rough estimation on my part but should line up with the rankings, at least for the most part.

Going by that, 26*3 + 59*1.5 = 166.5, which is greater than the 134 dodge lost. This is a pretty militantly max-CTC set of weightings that I don't really subscribe to myself. But that's the rationale, as I understand it. I'll edit and add some sources if I manage to find them.

he posted it before in this thread which is where im just copying from. Doesn't cast doubt on anything at all. Is all about stat weights people use. 26*1+59*0.66+61*0.143 = 73.663 - 134*0.36= 48.24 73.663-48.24= 25.423 So its pretty accurate and is 25.423 points higher for these stat weights.

edit: If you only and only look for avoidance then 26-48.24 = -22.24 would make 2nd item better. However you dont only look at avoidance.

I have nothing against a max-CTC guide (I wrote one myself once upon a time back when there were crushing blows). What's weird about the cloak case is that the PvP cloak actually provides less CTC than the quest cape.

Doesn't cast doubt on anything at all. Is all about stat weights people use.

It casts doubt on the weights, which is a part of the methodology, and therefore casts doubt on the methodology. I wasn't criticizing the arithmetic.

You certainly have a point, and it's actually something I've wondered about (and subsequently rejected, hence my not sporting the cloak in question and instead sticking with the quest cape, too).

I think the fact is that with the stat weightings in question 59 stamina simply ends up having a higher weighting than ~0.24% CTC. Pretty weird result for a "Combat Table Coverage" set of weightings. On some level I'm tempted to say that it's a level of precision that just isn't going to make a noticeable enough difference: I'm pretty sure any set of arbitrary weightings/ratings is going to break down when you start talking about moving 10s of points out of 1000s. On the other hand, what's the point in theorycrafting communities if we just hand-wave and say "Eh, it doesn't really matter" whenever a specific-enough question is asked.

I've spent the last little while attempting to come up with rationalisations for the high ranking of the cloak but I'm just not managing it. It seems implausible that an amount of Dodge is attainable that would cause DR to make up the difference. Even if it is plausible it seems unrealistic to use as a yardstick here.

The stamina/CTC trade off in the weightings is the same as used in gems and Blizzard's item values. It's been endlessly debated, but there's not much consensus and it seems to be apples vs oranges. I don't think theorycraft helps resolve it (or at least it hasn't so far).

The avoidance vs mastery trade off is valuing avoidance solely in terms of combat table coverage. If it was valued in terms of damage reduction, the weights would be much closer. It is a little extreme - reducing damage has some value - but I guess the guide is written for people like myself and I suspect the majority of causal tankadins, who are plugging away trying to get to 102.4%.

We do nonetheless make trade-offs with stamina (I am loathe to go two mastery trinkets, for example) and using the gem trade-off has a certain logic.

To echo Econ21, the weightings do not favour CTC over stamina in gearing to any real significance. The weightings favour CTC and stamina over MDR.

1 Mastery = 2/3 stamina

(Blizzard itemisation)

1 Mastery = 0.66 stamina

(Digren's weightings)

The difference is 0.66 being a touch under 0.6666666666666666666666666667 (Yeah I don't know how to do the dot for recurring) meaning it favours mastery gemming over stamina, but it does not really effect the value of Mastery compared to stamina on gear as for this sort of thing 0.66 = 2/3

--------------

Also the CTC difference is ~0.20% - Strength was not considered.

--------------

Personally I feel that MDR should be given a slightly higher consideration but not to take the focus away from CTC. My preference would be a value of 0.52 (0.25*1.0+0.75*0.36) which still leans very heavily towards CTC but puts 1% avoidance over 1% CTC.

Wasn't that cloak brought up before? Also, I would think if you were going to go that route the Rhyolith cloak would make the Sinestra cloak obsolete, especially since it's far easier to obtain. After you socket the Rhyolith cloak with a few fractured amberjewels, you end up with more mastery than the Sinestra cloak. 153 on the Sinestra cloak vs. after the gems 175 on the Rhyolith cloak.

Also, you gain 22 mastery over the difference of 4 stam and armor, and the hit rating on the Rhyolith cloak is higher than the haste of the Sinestra cloak, meaning you can get more dodge/parry from the reforge.

What it is is consistent. Far too many people say they want to "maximize combat table coverage" but then argue that "No, no, in this one case here, I actually want to do something else." That philosophy leads to inefficient gearing.

If you want Maximum Damage Reduction, use an MDR guide or set Mr. Robot to provide that for you. But then don't be surprised when the guide suggests dodge gems over mastery. If you don't want to value stamina at 2/3 mastery, then don't be surprised when guides stop recommending any stamina gems.

Eanin wrote:I have nothing against a max-CTC guide (I wrote one myself once upon a time back when there were crushing blows). What's weird about the cloak case is that the PvP cloak actually provides less CTC than the quest cape.

It's not a max-CTC guide. No sane person would gear for CTC alone (choosing highest mastery rating + 1/3 avoidance for each piece) in the absence of any other stats, because that would lead to much-lower-iLvl pieces popping up to the top of the list periodically, when a newer piece with more stamina and armor is clearly better.

There's nothing weird going on. You've made an assumption about the guide and are troubled that your assumption isn't to be panning out.

Torias wrote:I think the fact is that with the stat weightings in question 59 stamina simply ends up having a higher weighting than ~0.24% CTC. Pretty weird result for a "Combat Table Coverage" set of weightings.

It's your own assumption that this is a CTC weighting. You made an assumption and are now surprised that it doesn't fit the data.

Both of you take a step back, and think about how difficult it is to provide a guide for all the possible different tiers of tanks in so many different tiers of content. Even if you toss out the highest-end tanks (who rarely need guides like this), you have people trying to survive heroics all the way to people working through Firelands. In each case the tanks need a certain amount of stamina from their standard gear set (so that with just a trinket swap or two they can have enough for each encounter), but they also need to have a predictable amount of damage intake (low too, yes, but predictable is better than low for most people). And that ignores the variation due to healer preference (i.e. how your healers want you to gear to make things easier on them).

Think of each gear set as a point on a three-axis chart, [X,Y,Z]. Let X be the correct amount of block for that character, Y the stamina, Z the avoidance. Starting with a naked character, and using the gear available to that character based on available content, I have to create weightings that result in given slopes Mxy and Mxz such that the resulting vector hits just the right spot when the character fills their last open gear slot.

Doing that for all characters with just one set of weightings may be impossible. But I think this set is pretty close. What doesn't make sense though is using different weightings for different slots in the same gear set at the same time. That doesn't yield a vector.

For all further upgrades, isn't it basically "Whatever piece of gear has higher stats, overall, is better" ?

Strictly speaking in terms of gearing purely for avoidance... If I can stay at 102.4%, I'm reforging all extra stats into Dodge/Parry as equally as possible.

WRT the guide as a whole it values mastery above everything else, but one you're able to block cap, you're more concerned with essentially having the most mitigation possible on all pieces, reforging to 102.4%, and putting all excess mitigation into dodge/parry.

For all further upgrades, isn't it basically "Whatever piece of gear has higher stats, overall, is better" ?

Strictly speaking in terms of gearing purely for avoidance... If I can stay at 102.4%, I'm reforging all extra stats into Dodge/Parry as equally as possible.

WRT the guide as a whole it values mastery above everything else, but one you're able to block cap, you're more concerned with essentially having the most mitigation possible on all pieces, reforging to 102.4%, and putting all excess mitigation into dodge/parry.

Does that sum things up accurately or am I missing something?

Depends on what you're tanking. I'd assume a normal mode raider to go your path, but a hard mode tank is likly to be more interested in extra stamina.

Pinupgirl_Madoran wrote:WRT the guide as a whole it values mastery above everything else, but one you're able to block cap, you're more concerned with essentially having the most mitigation possible on all pieces, reforging to 102.4%, and putting all excess mitigation into dodge/parry.

Does that sum things up accurately or am I missing something?

I do not think so.

Once you reach block cap, you start swapping out Mastery gems for Sta gems and Eventually making your way from Mastery trinkets (on use/procs aside) to Sta trinkets.

We are not yet at the point where you can fully gem sta, dual sta trinket and still be at 102.4%

Pinupgirl_Madoran wrote:WRT the guide as a whole it values mastery above everything else, but one you're able to block cap, you're more concerned with essentially having the most mitigation possible on all pieces, reforging to 102.4%, and putting all excess mitigation into dodge/parry.

Does that sum things up accurately or am I missing something?

I do not think so.

Once you reach block cap, you start swapping out Mastery gems for Sta gems and Eventually making your way from Mastery trinkets (on use/procs aside) to Sta trinkets.

We are not yet at the point where you can fully gem sta, dual sta trinket and still be at 102.4%

Is it unreasonable for me to say that I wont be putting on stamina until I actually die to damage that I couldn't be healed quick enough from?

Don't get me wrong, I believe people when they say "Stamina for hardmodes" but I've yet to have a healer go "I would be totally OK with you sponging more mana, go put on some stam" and I've yet to die to damage that was too high to heal quick enough. When I run into these situations I have lots of different trinkets and flasks and such in my bag, I can adjust accordingly right then and there, and then play around with gems and such later.

On Nef 10H tanking Onyxia and all of the skeletons together put me in this situation - I was just unhealable with maxed CTC because the breath + the skeleton would kill me. So I changed my gear to have more stamina and we barely wiped in P1 after that.