To answer your question I don’t think the counter spells are very good in this format. The best option to protect Willbreaker, in my opinion, would be Calculated Dismissal but there simply isn’t room for it in the curve. I also don’t like ‘protective spells’ in this build as I am looking to be more proactive with stealing / sac when Willbreaker isn’t online. The only way to squeeze counter support in would be to cut Jorubai Murk Lurker as Bloodflow Connoisseur and Act of Treason are too important to the overall strategy. Another problem with cutting Jorubai Murk Lurker is that it is effectively the same thing as Disciple of the Ring but better; it’s cheaper, comes down earlier, and provides lifelink which ideally would help you win against aggro decks as they simply can’t race you at that point.

Speaking of Disciple of the Ring, you could probably cut Embermaw Hellion for it without any issues. The reason I went with Embermaw Hellion is that it turns Twin Bolt into a 2 damage to 2 creatures for one card when you’re not looking to steal stuff (no Willbreaker), or you simply want to burn them out after attacking them with a stolen creature from Act of Treason. With that said including Disciple of the Ring over it might be better if not just for tapping down their second creature to swing in with the Act of Treason one. Really at this point it's hard to tell because I can't test the deck (I'm don't own any iOS devices)

i just don't think Willbreaker is reliable enough to base a whole deck around. especially without a whole lot to protect it, everything you build up with it could come crumbling down at any time.

i just made a post in the 4 color thread with my initial control list, but i'm still awaiting the steam version to be released so it's all in theory right now. after giving it some more thought, i refined it into a Grixis list that i also want to post. i'm going for a draw-go style control deck, so i am heavy on instants, which i think should be viable in the upcoming format, even if a more aggressive deck based on sorceries might have some better card options. we'll have to see. for now, this is it:

Here's my take on Grixis control where mill is the primary win condition. I pack enough board control and counters to keep off what I need, and use Disciple of the Ring as a secondary wincon/extra control. Against aggro matchups (particularly mono red) this setup has had few problems, unless I face a mono white enchant deck that quickly gets out of most of the 4 damage reach (the reason I pack Disperse).

The lack of answers to big creatures in this format is simple. There's basically none. Woodland Bellower,Outland Colossus and Kothophed all take too long to hit the board for me to not have a counter spell ready or a double spell masteried Fiery Impulse/ Fiery Impulse + Exquisite Firecraft. I'm assuming the WotC will be adding more "big stuff" with the Battle for Zendikar expansion once released, because atm there's nothing common or big enough in the toughness department to counter this deck. There's plenty of high power, but not much with above 4 toughness to worry about.

I'd like to add Perilous Myr in here somewhere, but I haven't found it's presence needed with all of the early removal available. Jace does feel like a dead card a lot of the time and might be better off in a specific mill deck, but his +1 has saved me on occasion. Lastly, I take Telling Time over Read the Bones as it essentially gives you the same card draw (top of library is good enough 90% of the time), it's instant speed, I don't lose 2 life and I can still dump 1 dud card when looking 3 cards deep.

Into the Maw of Hell kills just about everything in the format, even a Renowned Colossus. Plus it hits problematic lands like Rogue's Passage or the Foundry. You should be able to play a copy in most red control lists.

Into the Maw of Hell kills just about everything in the format, even a Renowned Colossus. Plus it hits problematic lands like Rogue's Passage or the Foundry. You should be able to play a copy in most red control lists.

Suggestions to replace? I'm thinking -1 Jace and + 1 Maw of Hell? I still don't feel like Jace belongs and he either dies when he hits the board, forced to block potentially lethal or gets stuck +1 before he hits ult or a decent -3. Maw doesn't strike me as a multiple of but could come in handy like you said.

I can't offer suggestions yet, I'm working on the game right now. I was just pointing out that one copy of Into the Maw would be something to think about during your testing.

I am always interested in Grixis Control "just because" so expect me to try and build one soonish. We can share ideas then.

The mill primary wincon seems the most consistent to me (weird ) even if it results in most rage quitting when they hit 20 cards, but I look forward to seeing what others can come up with. I like the (semi) creatureless approach.

So the game plan is thopters of course, with a lot of added removal and a steal/sac subtheme. I dropped the red removals from the Izzet deck due to stronger black removal. Thopters are great for pumping Nantuko Husk and as disposable targets for Bone Splinters. A pumped Nantuko can be made unblockable with Whirler Rogue. I'm also testing replacing 3x Chief of the Foundry with 3x Read the Bones.

The 2nd route I'm testing is dropping the Cruel Revivals and Gravediggers for the sac/ETB route with something like this:

Bounceburnbuff- I think creatureless mill has the potential to be strong in this format, and Grixis seems like an obvious choice. The problem with slow win conditions is that it guarantees you will see everything your opponent has, and even if you can answer 95% of their deck that 5% you can't answer can kill you.

Gaea's revenge is a problem for your deck. I am not sure how often we will see it. I would expect Grixis to perform maybe a bit better than Jeskai against creatures, but it has very few answers to resolved artifacts enchantments (disperse x2 PLUS countermand x4), and white does better vs. Revenge.

Both jeskai and grixis have answers to gaea's revenge with celestial flare and fleshbag marauder. Jeskai wins out only due to tragic arrogance being better than languish in that scenario. From what have seen from the last 2 days on the ladder is no one has played gaea's revenge though. Most are going for 2-5 cmc drops very few people have played bombs at six mana or higher Kothophed, Soul Hoarder and Alhammerret, High Arbiter have only shown up about 2 times each. If this trend continues (personal experience only not sure what others are running into) I wouldn't worry about bombs too much atm and might even change my decks a bit if the meta remains this way.

Bounceburnbuff- I think creatureless mill has the potential to be strong in this format, and Grixis seems like an obvious choice. The problem with slow win conditions is that it guarantees you will see everything your opponent has, and even if you can answer 95% of their deck that 5% you can't answer can kill you.

Gaea's revenge is a problem for your deck. I am not sure how often we will see it. I would expect Grixis to perform maybe a bit better than Jeskai against creatures, but it has very few answers to resolved artifacts enchantments (disperse x2 PLUS countermand x4), and white does better vs. Revenge.

I've only faced 1 resolved Gaea's so far, the mill can see to the sufficient disruption (and counterspells for relevant fetch spells) and there was an answer already on the board. I was down to 7 life and he swung his hasted Gaea right into Disciple of The Ring, and since I couldn't spend my mana on a counter spell due to Gaea's text, I pumped five into Disciple to make it 8/9. This is why Disciple is such fantastic value as apart from Kothophed, she can be pumped with the entirety of your deck if needs be. If the board is clear and the win is obvious (or you suspect no Gaea's) then swing away, but it's better to stay untapped and act as a response. I've since ditched Maw of Hell as this didn't answer Gaea's and that's the main "big bad" I can see being an issue.

I have already faced a good counter deck, and constructed it myself. Specifically a playset of (forget the name) that 3 mana 3/1 black elf who forces you to discard. Leave it and that's 3 damage a turn, kill it and you waste 2 cards. Multiple of these would cripple you enough early, and the re animator strategy/resolved Evolutionary Leap also counters this well. Erebos's titan also plays hell with you since lacking creatures makes him automatically indestructible. So I'm aware that non-elf Golgari decks are the flat counter to control, but atm the elf variant/aura/aggro and thoptor decks are far more common and easy to deal with.

Both jeskai and grixis have answers to gaea's revenge with celestial flare and fleshbag marauder. Jeskai wins out only due to tragic arrogance being better than languish in that scenario. From what have seen from the last 2 days on the ladder is no one has played gaea's revenge though. Most are going for 2-5 cmc drops very few people have played bombs at six mana or higher Kothophed, Soul Hoarder and Alhammerret, High Arbiter have only shown up about 2 times each. If this trend continues (personal experience only not sure what others are running into) I wouldn't worry about bombs too much atm and might even change my decks a bit if the meta remains this way.

Agreed. Jeskai works better vs higher cc cards. My Jeskai deck is literally the same as Grixis build here, just switching the black cards for white. It's not just your experience, truth is atm the rock>paper>scissors is working well. Aggro is common enough and fast enough to keep Golgari/re animator/combo decks down whilst being easy for control to handle, but once aggro starts to drop off we will see decks that are harder for mine to deal with. I already gave some good examples above (3/1 black elf, Erebos Titan, Gaea's Revenge, Evolutionary Leap) but for the moment Disperseis here to deal with them. If the problem persists I will drop some early burn for a full playset of Disperse.

Here's my take on Grixis control where mill is the primary win condition. I pack enough board control and counters to keep off what I need, and use Disciple of the Ring as a secondary wincon/extra control. Against aggro matchups (particularly mono red) this setup has had few problems, unless I face a mono white enchant deck that quickly gets out of most of the 4 damage reach (the reason I pack Disperse).

The lack of answers to big creatures in this format is simple. There's basically none. Woodland Bellower,Outland Colossus and Kothophed all take too long to hit the board for me to not have a counter spell ready or a double spell masteried Fiery Impulse/ Fiery Impulse + Exquisite Firecraft. I'm assuming the WotC will be adding more "big stuff" with the Battle for Zendikar expansion once released, because atm there's nothing common or big enough in the toughness department to counter this deck. There's plenty of high power, but not much with above 4 toughness to worry about.

I'd like to add Perilous Myr in here somewhere, but I haven't found it's presence needed with all of the early removal available. Jace does feel like a dead card a lot of the time and might be better off in a specific mill deck, but his +1 has saved me on occasion. Lastly, I take Telling Time over Read the Bones as it essentially gives you the same card draw (top of library is good enough 90% of the time), it's instant speed, I don't lose 2 life and I can still dump 1 dud card when looking 3 cards deep.

I made my deck very similiar but cut Exquisite Firecraft due to double red and added Fleshbag Marauder as a better out to stuff this deck cant deal with and it works pretty good since it's a sacrifice effect and board generally clear anyways. So, -1 Jace -2 Firecrafts +3 Fleshbags. Btw Erebos Titan is a huge silver bullet due to the "invulnerable due to no creatures" clause.

Here's my take on Grixis control where mill is the primary win condition. I pack enough board control and counters to keep off what I need, and use Disciple of the Ring as a secondary wincon/extra control. Against aggro matchups (particularly mono red) this setup has had few problems, unless I face a mono white enchant deck that quickly gets out of most of the 4 damage reach (the reason I pack Disperse).

The lack of answers to big creatures in this format is simple. There's basically none. Woodland Bellower,Outland Colossus and Kothophed all take too long to hit the board for me to not have a counter spell ready or a double spell masteried Fiery Impulse/ Fiery Impulse + Exquisite Firecraft. I'm assuming the WotC will be adding more "big stuff" with the Battle for Zendikar expansion once released, because atm there's nothing common or big enough in the toughness department to counter this deck. There's plenty of high power, but not much with above 4 toughness to worry about.

I'd like to add Perilous Myr in here somewhere, but I haven't found it's presence needed with all of the early removal available. Jace does feel like a dead card a lot of the time and might be better off in a specific mill deck, but his +1 has saved me on occasion. Lastly, I take Telling Time over Read the Bones as it essentially gives you the same card draw (top of library is good enough 90% of the time), it's instant speed, I don't lose 2 life and I can still dump 1 dud card when looking 3 cards deep.

I made my deck very similiar but cut Exquisite Firecraft due to double red and added Fleshbag Marauder as a better out to stuff this deck cant deal with and it works pretty good since it's a sacrifice effect and board generally clear anyways. So, -1 Jace -2 Firecrafts +3 Fleshbags. Btw Erebos Titan is a huge silver bullet due to the "invulnerable due to no creatures" clause.

Agreed, Titan has been the bane of my games more than Gaea's has. Gaea and Titan can both be dealt with by a resolved/pumped Disciple of The Ring, but that is rare.

I'll make said changes, the Marauders don't need to live themselves and Jace has been an under performer in my experience. I'll get back to you on how it works out.

Right now I think my best deck is grixis (nearly) creatureless control. I am still at a low rank and I haven't seen the need for disperse yet, although I imagine it will become important later on. I still don't have a single copy of tutelage but I have 2x al hammie and he is an excellent finisher with built in protection. Disciple of the Ring is in the deck as well. Between the three of them I can close down games at a reasonable rate online.

Fleshbag marauder can be great sometimes, but I think Claustrophobia would work better in the same slot. The only real advantage of fleshbag is vs. Gaea's Revenge. Claustrophobia deals with Erebos' titan more reliably. If I end up seeing different matchups as I ascend the ranks I may need to change this.

Ultimately I still want to go Jeskai. I like the 2 mana white edict, and I like tragic arrogance, better than their black equivalents. What really puts jeskai over the edge for me is solemn offering. Lifegain and enchantment hate in one package are excellent.

You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot post attachments in this forum