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02:12:40 evening all, how's the day?
02:12:45 sleepy
02:12:57 the encryption she will not decrypt captain
02:13:29 fyrrcl
02:15:09 synx: Damnit, synx! I...need...more...DECRYPTION!
02:18:59 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/forum/crypt/encrypt-unit.ss seriously what's wrong with this?
02:19:49 I write each id:ckey pair, then the iv, then the encrypted data. To decrypt I read each id:ckey pair, then the iv, then decrypt if I found a session key I had the pkey for.
02:19:55 do you have a test script somewhere? what are you expecting it to do and what is it doing?
02:21:13 My test script works perfectly, finds a pkey, decrypts the ckey into a session key, then passes that to vyzo's openssl's symmetric decrypt. In vyzo's decrypt, the error "bytes-length: expects argument of type ; given #" is raised.
02:22:20 It's like there's nothing to read past that besides an EOF, but I know that's not true... I called encrypt, which writes stuff!
02:23:04 and you've done the obvious stuff, like stepping through it?
02:23:06 hmm... check for an EOF maybe, just in case
02:23:35 I have a bunch of print statements in there. It reaches vyzo's cipher decrypt just fine.
02:24:18 well, are you sure the problem is in your code?
02:24:42 'cause I'm not seeing anything.
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02:26:01 aha, found an error.
02:26:14 I hate having to hard-code iv-size...
02:26:37 what was it?
02:27:32 The IVs being generated are now 8 not #x10 long ._.
02:28:02 ah.
02:29:00 I should just write the size they are. But they're always the same size for a given cipher, honest!
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02:30:12 glad you found it. is it working now?
02:31:24 Well, the equivalent of (equal? s (decrypt (encrypt s)) worked.
02:35:29 incubot: sounds like synx's code is on life support
02:35:32 ; Value: ((a b c) (ALPHA BETA GAMMA))
02:35:50 oh, thank you!
02:36:29 sometimes incubot will give you things, like a two-year-old would, and you just have to smile brightly and thank him
02:38:17 So I can save, split, sign and encrypt files, and then load them back automatically. Got a thingie for making new text messages. Got a thingie for loading files to stdout. Just need a thingie to examine piece structure now, but otherwise it's pretty OK.
02:40:15 cool, glad to hear it.
02:41:55 zbigniew: Value: ((hoochie coochie) (UMMA GUMMA TAU)))
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02:43:40 gah
02:43:45 it's greek to me
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02:52:10 hey, does anyone here have the PLT Scheme web server running on a non-local server and, if so, where?
02:52:37 I've been Googling for recommendations on this and there seem to be suggestions and discussion, but I'm not getting anything concrete.
02:52:41 I do, though it's not a public server.
02:53:02 Just my little place to put stuff and test stuff out.
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02:53:10 but it's with a public company, right? i.e. one where anyone could rent space?
02:53:42 No it's just...my computer...
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02:54:10 It's accessible over the main Internet though, not just locally.
02:54:29 ah, I see.
02:54:53 Hm. that's a thought. I suppose for basic stuff I could just put one of my machines online through DynDNS
02:55:12 I use afraid.org, but whatever works.
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02:58:03 linode!
02:58:10 $20/month but pretty reliable
02:58:56 I wish I could get a linode.
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02:59:02 offby1: are you using them?
02:59:08 synx: why can't you? just hte $$ ?
02:59:13 s/hte/the/
02:59:19 but I'm also a strong advocate of personal servers, just running on your computer.
02:59:23 yeah dstorrs
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03:02:11 I'm messing around with SXML and SVG. It doesn't look hard to implement the Henderson language with an SVG backend through SXML.
03:04:11 dstorrs: I was using linode a while ago but quit simply to save money
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03:05:57 I wonder if there's any tax deductible VPS companies out there. You could get on that, contribute most of the bandwidth to charity like i2p or something, and write it off.
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03:09:55 honestly, I doubt that anything I would produce would have enough bandwidth costs to justify it.
03:10:06 I'm sort of considering using AWS, actually
03:10:52 as long as you can run under Sqlite and don't need MySQL (which won't run on a size small AWS AMI), it would be fine.
03:13:01 Only thing I did that ever used bandwidth was file sharing and i2p.
03:13:20 Could run a TOR relay I guess.
03:13:23 i2p ?
03:13:39 http://www.i2p2.de/
03:13:40 second door on the left
03:15:48 huh. How is this different from Tor?
03:17:36 One way tunnels for one. It's got protections against timing attacks and such. Plus Tor pretty much forces you to use their little central knot of servers.
03:18:13 i2p destinations are published via a Floodfill database, which is central, but plans for doing kademlia are in progress.
03:18:38 ?? from what I've read on Tor, it's all routed through volunteer-contributed relays.
03:18:40 Also the i2p philosophy seems to be more towards developing the network internally, instead of pressuring people to be exit nodes to risk communicating over the insecure Internet.
03:18:51 or are you saying that the central servers must be used to get the list of relays?
03:18:59 Yeah, but it's only a few volunteer contributed relays. You need a bunch of bandwidth to do so.
03:19:32 Whereas i2p tries to spread the load out more evenly, making it harder for an authority to control the entire network.
03:20:08 under Tor you can throttle it to whatever level you like, and also restrict which services you want to relay. That lowers the hurdle on how much bandwidth you need.
03:21:34 I just mean opening up the ORPort. I think they request at least 60K/s or something. It's a very unscalable algorithm.
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03:22:35 ah.
03:22:50 you learn something every day.
03:23:25 Also i2p can handle bittorrent. TOR dies with bittorrent.
03:23:36 Like that vampire in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie.
03:23:59 Dracula glares at him and he's like "Ack ick-- uck? *falls down obediently*"
03:26:32 dstorrs: http://www.i2p2.de/techintro.html#similar
03:32:14 interesting. Thanks, synx
03:32:21 np ^^
03:32:55 I donate what I can to i2p. It ain't tax deductible though, since the one I'm paying is my for-profit ISP :p
03:50:29 One aspect of Tor that does not admit throttling very well is that the amount of state on each node scales linearly with the number of nodes in the Tor network.
03:52:17 Also, some suspect that for similar reasons, Tor interacts badly with the TCP and its congestion control, causing the network to have greater latency and lower bandwidth than there actually is between the nodes on the IP network.
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10:41:19 does anyone know if ikarus is still being developed?
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10:56:49 yes kyle_
10:57:11 have a look on the launchpad site
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11:04:53 Awesome, thanks. Looks like I have my new scheme compiler of choice
11:12:09 :)
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11:52:08 kyle_: you might want to look at the ikarus mailinglist too, it's quite active.
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13:12:17 whats the best scheme implementation?
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13:14:40 jimi_hendrix: That's a contentious question.
13:15:15 Scheme84.
13:15:29 I can answer it! The best scheme implementation is the one you like the most (and, possibly, wrote yourself).
13:17:20 well can i get suggestions and explinations
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13:19:00 jimi_hendrix: Some Scheme implementations that people like are (in no particular order): Scheme48, PLT, Chicken, Gambit, Gauche, Larceny, Ikarus, and MIT Scheme.
13:19:07 I would use PLT Scheme. ;)
13:19:21 Repentinus: why :)
13:19:32 thats a lot of implementations?
13:19:34 What are your needs, jimi_hendrix? If you want to play around and learn, there's that nice one with all the tutorials (DrScheme IIRC?). If you want to do 'practical' stuff with a UNIXy mindset (compiled binaries, ease of getting to C libraries), chicken works for me. I don't know what's notably good about Scheme48, PLT, Gambit, Gauche, Larceny, Ikarus, and MIT, but they'll all have their particular specialities.
13:19:37 Well-documented.
13:19:59 And I had compiler installed before starting to learn it.
13:20:00 i know a friend who swares by MIT
13:20:20 PLT is a popular choice for beginners. The development environment is fairly friendly, and there's a lot of tutorial and reference documentation supplied with the implementation.
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13:20:50 MIT Scheme is not a bad choice either. Like PLT, it has its own development environment, though the learning curve is probably a bit steeper.
13:20:57 alaricsp: with chicken, does the compiler work as an interpreter too?
13:21:13 chandler: you mean plt by itself or with drscheme
13:21:22 With DrScheme, yes.
13:21:40 Compiler and interpreter + Kate are fine for me.
13:21:44 Chicken has an interpreter that almost exactly mirrors the behaviour of the compiler (except embedded inline C code doesn't work, but you can link in pre-compiled modules (they become .sos) from the interpreter dunamically)
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13:22:41 alaricsp: Gambit's advantages are much the same as Chicken's. Scheme48 is cleanly implemented, and designed with care. Gauche I like because it provides a good selection of practical libraries and a CLOS-like system, with good documentation, in a minimal size.
13:22:41 i can live with emacs + repl buffer
13:23:17 ok i will consider
13:23:19 alaricsp: Larceny and Ikarus are native code compilers focused on optimization. MIT Scheme has Edwin.
13:23:22 i do know CL
13:23:25 Chicken is undergoing some overdue changes at the moment - they adopted a proper module system with hygienic macros in the core, so there's being a period of turmoil while existing library code is ported to the Chicken 4 core. So it may look a bit rough right now, but it should pick up again fast.
13:23:35 chandler: Please don't spread the "PLT is for beginners" myth.
13:23:36 (and by know i mean i did some hacking with it, but nothing serious)
13:23:39 alaricsp: Those are very incomplete descriptions of course, but now you know.
13:23:48 eli: Please re-read what I said.
13:23:51 chandler: I expected you'd say that, it was still misleading.
13:23:57 Thanks, chandler ;-)
13:24:20 We live in a world that's too short of one-line summaries of things ;-)
13:24:34 chicken is a popular choice with pedophiles.
13:24:47 MIT Scheme is a popular choice with necrophiliacs.
13:25:05 gambit is adored by hamster molesters.
13:25:21 uh?
13:25:27 Oooh, I trust hamster molesters. I should look at Gambit...
13:25:56 I think eli is complaining about the misleading nature of shallow one-line summaries ;-)
13:26:05 i think i will try gauche
13:26:11 *jimi_hendrix* may be back later
13:26:11 alaricsp: Yes.
13:26:17 eli: Why do you treat "beginners" as a slur? It was meant as a positive statement, and I believe it to be a true statement as well.
13:26:47 chandler: It inevitably leads to the "for real work ...".
13:26:51 eli: There is no other implementation (other than MIT Scheme, which I implicitly dissed as having a high learning curve) which is as easy to download and set up as a complete development environment.
13:26:57 It does not in my case.
13:27:24 chandler: I don't know about your case, but I've seen it very many times over very many years.
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13:27:52 There's an underlying issue here: *some* people will take a one-line summary as Gospel truth and a complete statement, and *some* people will assume that something described as good for beginners will be less pleasant for "real work"
13:27:52 I used PLT once and I had to figure out how to get it to run scheme instead of scheme for beginners from their textbook, if I remember right.
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13:28:00 But some people won't make those leaps
13:28:00 Probably from the time I switched away from SCM, which was around the time the icebergs started to melt.
13:28:05 kyle_: That is not an issue anymore.
13:28:13 Do we pepper our language with long disclaimers and careful wording all the time, in case a moron hears us?
13:28:27 Sometimes we have to, when writing press releases or standing up in court
13:28:34 As programmers, we should know, that something is good for beginners, does not imply that it's not good for professionals and real work.
13:28:50 kyle_: the "beginner" language has not been the default for probably more than 3 years now.
13:29:05 But it's nice to be able to communicate efficiently as a bunch of wise clever folks from time to time
13:29:11 Makes a pleasant change from talking to managers, at any rate!
13:29:14 alaricsp: Tell that to any group of people who are singled out by stereotypes.
13:29:18 PLT is a serious implementation with many recommendable attributes. I have recently suggested it several times to users of Python, Ruby, etc. as an example of a "serious" Scheme implementation that could be used for real-world work.
13:29:25 Are you happy with that statement, eli?
13:29:30 chandler: Sure.
13:29:33 eli: managers, for example ;-)
13:29:47 And I will still make the statement that it is a popular choice for beginners, because it is a *good* choice for beginners.
13:29:59 This is not a slur!
13:30:07 jimi_hendrix: a few months ago I want through the Scheme selection process. :>
13:30:48 chandler: I didn't mean to sound defensive or offensive -- but the "PLT = beginners" is something that bugs me as someone who spends all of his time on "PLT = real tool". (That is, I don't deal with the teaching languages at all.)
13:31:43 You know, people usually learn languages to use them. I see no point in learning a language in order to not use it.
13:32:01 let me post the qualifications I used and the results
13:32:33 Repentinus: Scheme is a little "special" in the implementation selection area.
13:32:48 jimi_hendrix: anyway, the short answer was "PLT Scheme"
13:32:49 eli: I wouldn't even recommend the teaching languages to someone who is a competent programmer of other languages but new to Scheme, so they are not a part of the statement I am making. I am solely focused on ease of installation, quality and completeness of implementation, and quality of documentation.
13:32:49 Now, a stereotype may be valid (women ARE more likely to bear children than men), or invalid (women may be more likely to have less well-paid jobs, but for silly reasons; so they are *no less suitable* for those jobs); the important distinction to make is between stereotypes that are valid uses of statistical trends, and stereotyping that is *prejudice*.
13:33:04 I couldn't get absolutely everything I wanted, but PLT satisfied the largest fraction of my requirements
13:34:09 chandler: I almost completely agree on the programmers of other languages point, and I'll take the installation ease as a complement, since that's mostly my area.
13:34:22 Including the damn OSX installer...
13:34:34 Which implies the cursing that is needed...
13:34:38 I don't have any issues with it, so you must be doing something right!
13:34:45 jimi_hendrix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/85653
13:35:16 chandler: You mean you've used the Mac thing?
13:35:42 oh and, to be clear, I work from CLI + Emacs
13:36:01 eli: The disk image? Yes, that's all I use.
13:36:28 Emacs is a little bit overkill IMHO.
13:36:29 chandler: Well, there's some really strange design decisions in making these drag-to-install things.
13:37:13 eli: what kind of decisions?
13:37:13 I'm aware of that, but the end result is something which can be installed very easily without assuming that the user has administrator-level privileges on their computer.
13:38:11 chandler, users who don't have administrative privileges shouldn't be able to install software.
13:38:42 dstorrs: There are some "preflight" and "postflight" and other such scripts, which are run with some odd preferences,
13:39:12 So, they shouldn't be using Scheme at all? "Install software" merely means making a program available to run on a computer. If as a non-administrator I shouldn't be running programs not supplied by the administrator, I shouldn't be programming either.
13:39:20 I reject that conclusion, so one of the premises has to give.
13:39:34 Then there's some rules about keeping the meta data for the package -- which could be used for things like upgrading or deleting a package -- but none of these things was implemented (at least at the time).
13:40:20 And just trying to get some of the fancy features like a custom folder icon is a complete disaster.
13:40:45 (All are much worse when you need to deal with that and don't have a physical Mac to work with.)
13:41:03 eli: erm...so far as I'm aware, OSX does not worry about keeping metadata on its packages.
13:41:22 Well, it makes you add that, even though it's not using it.
13:41:29 a directory simply has an "I am a package" bit, much like it has an "I am readable bit"
13:41:36 if the bit is set, it appears as an icon
13:41:49 but it's still really just a directory containing all the data for the app that runs from it.
13:41:57 No, there's some XML file with the real data about the application, version, etc etc.
13:42:06 I'm happy to say that I don't remember the details though.
13:42:20 I think you're referring to Info.plist .
13:42:24 well, yes, true. But that's inside the directory and has a standard name and path
13:42:24 chandler, correction to an earlier statement of yours: Scheme48 *was* designed with care, but then it, well, grew, having had an R6RS seed grafted onto it.
13:43:00 eli: anyway, the OSX design isn't one that you prefer. Ok.
13:43:23 dstorrs: Yes.
13:43:45 The directory-as-file mechanism that OS X uses is very strange, and has some completely non-obvious implications that even Apple doesn't always remember to account for.
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13:44:21 For instance, you can't just create a directory and then ask the Finder to open it, expecting that it'll show the user the directory. You have to explicitly check to make sure that you didn't just create a directory-which-is-a-file.
13:44:37 And whether you did depends on what software is installed, and has been recognized by LaunchServices.
13:45:10 So you could do the check, find that it's not a bundle, but then try to use it and find that it *is* a bundle because LaunchServices has just recognized an application that registers the extension as a bundle type.
13:45:57 Riastradh: I believed that I summarized all of the named implementations to the point where my summary was false - which is, I believe, called an "executive summary".
13:46:20 OK, I looked, and I can't find it. I don't remember if it was Info.plist or something else.
13:47:00 Info.plist is the repository for the type of metadata that you mentioned (application name, version, etc.).
13:47:18 Depending on how you're building, that may be created from some other file.
13:48:34 There are plists of the applications, but I remember something similar for the installer.
13:48:53 Perhaps I'm mixing that with the installer we had before the drag+drop dmg.
13:49:10 Yes. There's another blasted plist for .pkg installers.
13:49:11 (I remember that as making the OSX thing way simpler.)
13:49:22 Ah -- pkg something.
13:49:26 .pkg installers have preflight and postflight scripts and various plists or something, and lots of sketchiness.
13:49:27 That rings a bell.
13:49:54 Also, they store receipts in /Library/Receipts, but as far as I know, there is no general way to uninstall them.
13:49:56 I understand what you were ranting about now. The drag and drop approach requires some care to implement, but is a lot less sketchy.
13:50:10 And it looks like there are no "pkg" occurrences in the build script, so I probably did confuse it with the previous installer.
13:50:42 And yes -- the /Library/Receipts was a major focal point for bogons.
13:51:07 eli: In any event, I hope that you will not respond so negatively the next time I decide to pay PLT a complement.
13:51:27 A compliment, even?
13:51:31 Er, yes.
13:51:33 My only problem with PLT's drag-and-drop install is that even if I don't install it, but do run it, it deposits state in my file system which I didn't ask it to. So when I run DrScheme a year later, and the default state has changed, DrScheme will use whatever was the default state a year ago, to my confusion.
13:51:38 And I need another cup of coffee, it seems.
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13:52:07 (Damn English and its non-isomorphic orthography and phonology...)
13:54:53 chandler: Like I said, I'm sorry of it came out as deffensive, but I really dislike that particular connection; even things like "scsh for shell programming" is not really a good categorization.
13:55:13 Riastradh: Which state are you talking about -- the OSX equivalent of "~/.plt-scheme"?
13:55:25 Probably, eli. I think it was something in ~/Library/Preferences.
13:55:42 My complaint isn't specific to PLT, of course -- many applications do this, to my continued frustration.
13:56:11 What would you do instead?
13:56:28 (For saving application settings.)
13:56:44 I'd store only those decisions that I have expressly made.
13:57:24 So the only difference would be if version X set a default that somehow broke a later version Y?
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13:58:05 Not `broke', but merely changed the behaviour of.
13:58:43 I just launched DrScheme from a PLT Scheme 4.2 disk image that I had lying around, and it already stored a number of decisions that I didn't make, and that DrScheme never told me about, in ~/Library/Preferences/org.plt-scheme.prefs.ss.
13:59:00 For example?
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14:00:33 (FWIW, if there's any such decisions that were put into the preference file that make a difference later, then that would (usually) be a bug.)
14:00:37 Riastradh pasted "~/Library/Preferences/org.plt-scheme.prefs.ss after only launching DrScheme from PLT 4.2 and doing nothing else" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85658
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14:01:31 Why did DrScheme store anything there?
14:01:50 Clearly it knows what the defaults are, since it created that file with them, so it doesn't need to find their values by reading the file.
14:01:55 a. I don't see any problem there (re something that would be a bug).
14:03:08 There was more of a problem when DrScheme began by prompting for a choice of language, if I recall correctly -- so in that respect it has improved. Although now it has a default of no language, so in order to do anything with it I am required to make a decision for DrScheme; I can't just make a decision in the file I'm editing.
14:03:37 b. Some parts of that are "normal state" like the size of the window that you chose; and the `splash-max-width' thing is a cache that corresponds to the number of modules loaded (roughly) to make the progress thing when it starts reflect the actual startup time.
14:03:38 Sorry, that's false.
14:04:11 Writing `#lang scheme' and some Scheme code worked, but now DrScheme has put more decisions into the preferences file.
14:04:19 (That is, all of (b) are harmless, and they must be there to provide the functionality.)
14:05:37 To provide what functionality? DrScheme was able to launch without the file, and I saw nothing wrong with its launch.
14:06:22 ... popping a window that has the same size it had last time (a popular feature these days) and remembering the number of items that need loading.
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14:07:35 (c) The top ~4 items are probably the defaults, there's some code that hooks preferences to the file, and I'm not sure why it saves values that are the same as the defaults -- could be an obscure design, or could be due to some gui issue (ie, code that doesn't know if 1234 is the default, or if you happened to set it explicitly to the default value).
14:07:44 Riastradh: do you object that DrS wrote to your disk at all, or do you object to a specific decision that it made?
14:08:04 (c) might be worth a complaint.
14:08:04 dstorrs, the first. I didn't make any decisions.
14:08:06 eli: If you'd like for me not to recommend PLT as a good choice for beginning Scheme programmers, I recommend that you make it more difficult to install, more cumbersome to use, and less well documented. :-)
14:08:45 (Oh, boy. More Git lossage: I can't update my repositories because some files that I didn't touch are `not uptodate': error: Entry 'src/microcode/bkpt.h' not uptodate. Cannot merge.)
14:09:07 And re the language selection issue -- the "no language" thing was the solution to the common confusion wrt the language to choose -- and the whole thing is on its way out (which will make me very happy) and leave only the `#lang' thing.
14:09:07 Riastradh: automatically creating a prefs file on first startup is a common pattern for dozens of pieces of software. I really don't see the problem but, ok, if it bothers you, don't use it.
14:09:57 and storing the defaults in prefs makes perfect sense...it makes the code very simple: "if (there is a prefs file) read it and use no defaults ELSE create one with these defaults"
14:10:03 chandler: Heh, that would be hard now... Especially the installer stuff.
14:10:22 dstorrs, the problem is that the defaults can change, and merely having run the software once two years ago shouldn't affect its behaviour when I install a new version of it today.
14:10:55 Yes, it's a classic case of three-valued logic...
14:10:56