Bob Carr joins Insiders

Foreign Minister Bob Carr joins Insiders from New York to discuss gay marriage and Islamic protests.

BARRIE CASSIDY, PRESENTER: We'll go to our program guest now, the Foreign Minister Bob Carr, who has just arrived in New York and he joins us live.

Minister, good morning, welcome.

BOB CARR, FOREIGN MINISTER: Good morning, Barrie.

BARRIE CASSIDY: You've just come from France where you discussed options open to Islamic peoples who are offended by blasphemous material. Now essentially what I think you were saying is don't hit the streets, hit the internet?

BOB CARR: Yes, that is absolutely the case. I think that Islamic governments, especially in the Middle East, need to be able to say to their people “we've witnessed these attacks on the Prophet. Like you, we in government, consider them intolerable” - these are the words I'm putting in the mouths of a supposed Arab government in the Middle East, an Arab government – “but we will respond to it not by attacks on embassies, not by violent street protests but by a moderate Islamic viewpoint.”

I was encouraged by the turnout on the street of Benghazi in the last 24 hours, people opposed to the militia and opposed to extremists and opposed to that tragic assassination of an American ambassador.

BARRIE CASSIDY: But nevertheless demonstrations have a place though, don’t they, in all societies on a whole range of issues?

BOB CARR: Yes, and I think a demonstration on the streets of Sydney would have got a little attention and no unsympathetic attention if it had taken place without violence and without those appalling posters that invoked beheadings.

I think the message - the message though with demonstrations is that they will always be taken over by an extremist minority. I don't care whether it's a demonstration for the rights of asylum seekers, I don't care how reputable the cause, once you urge people to turn out on the streets a vanguard group of extremists, Trotskyists or the sort of radicals we saw in Sydney a week ago, are going to be moving in from stage left to take it over. That's the reality of street demonstrations.

So, hence the value of what I'm putting forward as a way of engaging governments in the Islamic world. There is an alternative and that is projecting a voice of moderate Islam through the internet, through research institutes, through engagement with scholars as an alternative to less satisfactory methods.

BARRIE CASSIDY: How did that idea go down in Paris, because that of course, that’s s a country that has about 5 million Muslims and they deal with these issues all the time?

In Geneva on a quick visit I was able to talk to the leadership of the United Nations Human Rights Commission about it. The high commissioner, Pillay, found the idea commendable and I'll have an opportunity this week in New York to talk to the Gulf Cooperation Council, at a meeting I will be hosting, and at a meeting with the leadership of the Organisation For Islamic Cooperation, as well as various bilateral meetings.

BARRIE CASSIDY: Now the Turkish prime minister, as I understand it, is putting forward a proposal for international laws on religious defamation. What do you make of that idea?

BOB CARR: I don't think that would be acceptable to the Western world. We had a little example of how religious vilification laws work in a case that gained some notoriety under the Victorian legislation, and it meant drawn-out legal process directed at some pastors who would have gained, without this, no publicity whatsoever for their criticism of Islam.

I think dragging religious disputes into the courts is a very bad notion. I wouldn't want to see it reflected in Australian domestic law, and I don't think it's a satisfactory international response to this tension.

I prefer the notions I put forward, an invitation to the Islamic world, an invitation to Arab governments to advance the tenants of moderate Islam using publicity and using, invoking the power of persuasion.

BARRIE CASSIDY: Now the high commission in Islamabad, in Pakistan was closed temporarily late in the week because of the demonstrations. What fears do you hold for the safety of diplomatic staff in countries around the world?

BOB CARR: I wouldn't want to spend too much time talking about security of our embassies and our high commissions. It's probably advisable to steer away from that, but while we take a lot of precautions, especially in countries where our staff would be considered vulnerable, in the end you can't stop diplomats doing what diplomats must do. And that is get out and engage with the population, engage with the government, engage with the society.

And sadly, as a result of Libya, we're very, very conscious of the risks that unarmed diplomats trying to promote peaceful resolutions of problems will face in some nations.

BARRIE CASSIDY: OK, well you're in New York now, how do you rate Australia's chances of winning a place on the United Nations Security Council?

BOB CARR: The ballot's on October 18. We've been very encouraged by support we've had, for example, the 15 nations of the Caribbean have formally endorsed Australia. They like our policies directed at small island states, they see us as a good advocate for small and medium sized powers.

They like what we say and do on climate change, on an arms trade treaty. We've been endorsed on three occasions by the nations of the Pacific Islands. We've had a lot of encouragement in Africa, in Europe, in Asia.

It is always tough for Australia to win a ballot, whether you're going for the opportunity of hosting a major sporting event. I know that from the experience of the Olympics. It's always tough, it's always challenging because Australia's not part of a major bloc.

Secondly, we did enter this race somewhat late. Luxembourg and Finland had been in the race from 2001, 2002 respectively. We entered in 2008.

Nonetheless, win or lose I’d argue the process for competing for this position, this two, two year non-permanent position on the Security Council has been good for Australia, good for our engagement with the world. It's intensified our diplomacy. We've learnt more about many countries and they've learnt more about us.

BARRIE CASSIDY: It became a personal crusade when Kevin Rudd took it up. Did it lose a bit of momentum when he ceased being foreign minister?

BOB CARR: No, I've put a lot into this and our diplomats have been working at it without any interruption. Our permanent representative here at the UN, Gary Quinlan, could not have been more active and his campaign has been a very sophisticated one. I visited parts of the world that I wouldn't have gone to in the normal course of events because I've wanted to carry this campaign forward.

I think Australia's got a lot to contribute. We're on the G20, we've got the 13th largest economy in the world. We've been - we've delivered some exemplary peacekeeping interventions: RAMSI (Regional Assistance Mission to the Solomon Islands) in the Solomons, East Timor, for example, we are the largest non-NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation) contributor in Afghanistan.

Our aid budget is variously rated as number six or number eight in the world. Australia is a good global citizen, a creative middle power. I think there's a lot we could do.

BARRIE CASSIDY: The Treasurer, Wayne Swan, had a go this week at elements of the Republican Party on economic policy. Does it matter in terms of foreign policy, in your area, whether it's Barack Obama or Mitt Romney who wins the election?

BOB CARR: We've got to be engaged with both sides. Kim Beazley attended both of the parties' conventions. We've got good lines of communication. I was honoured that candidate Romney gave me his time about a month ago. We had a good exchange. He said to one Republican friend of mine that he enjoyed the meeting and enjoyed the expression of support I gave, the reinforcement I gave in terms of our commitment to the American alliance.

I think my priority is to see that we've got lines of communication with the foreign policy advisers of both candidates. And of course our links with the Obama administration are very, very good.

BARRIE CASSIDY: Does that then suggest that Wayne Swan had severed his links with the Republican Party by saying what he has said about their economic approach?

BOB CARR: No, I think anyone who's followed Republican Party politics, and they've been on display during the very vigorous primary process, would see that the Tea Party is one strand among several in Republican Party politics. And I just reinforce the point I previously made, indeed I made it to governor Romney when I met him. And that is all friends of America are looking towards a budget deal.

America's shown very impressive signs of revival, the move to energy independence, for example, the competitiveness of a lot of American manufacturing, the continuing strength and relevance of American university education.

The one thing that stands between America and banishing the talk of American decline, getting rid of this focus on American declinism, is the absence of a deal across the party divide on curbing their very considerable budget deficit.

BARRIE CASSIDY: What did you think though of Mitt Romney's views on Middle East peace as outlined in that leaked video when he said: "We kick the ball down the field and hope ultimately somehow something will happen and resolve it." What do you make of that as a strategy?

BOB CARR: It reminded me of a line from West Wing when they were talking about a negotiated peace in the Middle East in the Oval Office. One of the characters said “the pursuit of a Nobel Prize is an invitation to noble failure”. It is very, very hard going.

And one of the big restraints is that on both sides of the divide, Israel and Palestine, the leaders feel constrained from taking the big risks for peace that in the past have taken the Middle East forward. One thinks of the leadership of those now departed figures, president Sadat and prime minister Begin.

For various reasons, neither the Palestinian leadership nor the Israeli leadership feel that at this time they can take big steps, big risks for peace. And in that sense one can understand where governor Romney's coming from.

BARRIE CASSIDY: Just finally on a domestic issue, you came out this week in support of gay marriage, why was that?

BOB CARR: It was in line with the removal of discrimination that I had implemented in the 10 years I'd been premier. And because of the consideration that if a same-sex couple is seeking the legal sanction of marriage, it is churlish or uncharitable or discriminatory to say to them they can't have that.

And no-one could say that in countries, the jurisdictions where same-sex marriage is possible, that traditional marriage has been remotely degraded or compromised or devalued by the possibility that a male couple or a female couple can celebrate a union and go off and have a party with family and friends after they've done it.

BARRIE CASSIDY: So what happens now? Because the reform went down convincingly in both houses of Parliament. Do gay marriage advocates now they're a bit like those who support a Republic, they will have to have infinite patience?

BOB CARR: I would think so. I mean there's no other way of advancing this in a democracy. But I think what happens in Australia is likely to influence what happens in other countries around the world and you've got president Obama and the prime minister of the United Kingdom endorsing the concept, and there's clearly some momentum, that will feed into the debate in Australia.