OH PLEASE. Rand killed his own chances. He did it all by himself. If he had wanted to kill his campaign, he couldn't have done a better job of it. Now, THAT is the truth. Deal with it.

I recall noting a pattern during the debates where anyone who attacked Trump had the tables turned on them and it wrecked their campaign. When it came to Rand's turn to speak, I was like, 'okay, all these others attacked Trump right out of the gates, and he's just getting stronger, so don't do it, Rand. Play it smar—- - - No! Rand.No!!!!! NOOOOOOOO!!!!'

Rand was doing well in early 2015 but made a strategic mistake of giving the appearance of positioning himself with the GOP establishment and the far left at the absolute worst time to do it. The people were looking for exactly the opposite of that and Trump was the only one offering it up on a silver platter. It sunk his campaign.

His strategy may have worked temporarily for a previous cycle but not in 2015 and not for the length of time he continued on that path. It really sent the message that he was running just an educational campaign in preparation for running in 2020 after a Trump loss in 2016.

"ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

"Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

I recall noting a pattern during the debates where anyone who attacked Trump had the tables turned on them and it wrecked their campaign. When it came to Rand's turn to speak, I was like, 'okay, all these others attacked Trump right out of the gates, and he's just getting stronger, so don't do it, Rand. Play it smar—- - - No! Rand.No!!!!! NOOOOOOOO!!!!'

Cruz tried the other approach, and that didn't work either.

The time was simply ripe for a culture war demagogue, and Trump was just the rabble-rouser for the job.

"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

The time was simply ripe for a culture war demagogue, and Trump was just the rabble-rouser for the job.

That's reality.

But Rand would have looked infinitely less wimpy if he had not dabbled with the tough guy act. I really think those un-genuine moments in front of a large audience did more damage to his image going forward than his alliances intra-party or across the aisle.

Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

But Rand would have looked infinitely less wimpy if he had not dabbled with the tough guy act. I really think those un-genuine moments in front of a large audience did more damage to his image going forward than his alliances intra-party or across the aisle.

Trump's the perfect example of how totally unprincipled people are natural actors.

OH PLEASE. Rand killed his own chances. He did it all by himself. If he had wanted to kill his campaign, he couldn't have done a better job of it. Now, THAT is the truth. Deal with it.

Nope.

It was indeed sad to watch. It started with Rand supporting McConnell against being called a liar on the Senate floor. It made him look like establishment, in a political climate where establishment was not the thing to be.

That is wrong on so many levels. First of all, when you're the only non-corrupt candidate, any move is a move they'll try to attack you for. If he was against McConnell they would've just instead pushed the narrative of him not being a Republican.. that he should just run as a Democrat instead. There is no "right" move when anything you do will be twisted and manipulated to make you look bad when the entire army of the media is against you.

The real reason he lost? Sanders was propped up to siphon the disenfranchised young voters that would've otherwise voted for Rand, just as how the young people voted for Ron.. however the promises to rid them of their insane student debt seemed too tempting. Ok so that angle is covered.

Next group of people who would support Rand? Conservatives / Constitutionalists. Ok, how do we siphon that group from him? Ted Cruz. All the pied piper talking heads who pretend they care about the constitution only to lead their viewers astray when it matters the most (ensuring what they claim they're for never really happens) push Ted Cruz hard. "He's Rand Paul, but better on foreign policy".

What remaining people would've went to Rand? People who realize the media is bull$#@! and that being an enemy of the media actually makes you look good 'cuz you know they're corrupt..Obviously they set up Donald Trump to be against the media to help him win.. It may have seemed like it was to hurt him, but it was only to ensure that he was labeled the anti-media candidate. If they truly wanted Trump to lose, they wouldn't have given him nearly as much air time. What's a few million dollars vs losing your control of media if you truly thought he was a non-corrupt guy who would rid them of corruption if elected?

A portion of the remaining people left to support Rand are young people who've done extensive research when it comes to the government, economy, foreign policy..but a lot of those people dont have the money to donate to his campaign.

Now tell me. What could Rand have possibly done against this and billions of dollars that would've garnered him nearly enough support to be viable? You can't compare his campaign to Ron's. When Ron ran, he didnt have all these fake groups created to steal his support. He stood alone in being against government intrusion and media bias and for the Constitution. Just as how they implemented super delegates to corrupt the electoral process, they've implemented candidates crafted to siphon support from truly good candidates.

Last edited by ds21089; 11-02-2017 at 01:13 PM.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

Sadly I must agree. If Rand had ran on a firebrand don't-give-a-$#@! all out Lion for Liberty campaign, he would have done much better... but he played politics with McConnell and the RINOs and people saw right through it.

Disagree.

The MSM used anything against Rand, even ignoring him like his Dad, while pumping up Trump & making people think he was anti-establishment.

That is wrong on so many levels. First of all, when you're the only non-corrupt candidate, any move is a move that'll try to attack you for. If he was against McConnell they wouldve just instead pushed the narrative of him not being a Republican.. that he should just run as a Democrat instead. There is no "right" move when anything you do will be twisted and manipulated to make you look bad when the entire army of the media is against you.

The real reason he lost? Sanders was propped up to siphon the disenfranchised young voters that wouldve otherwise voted for Rand, just as how the young people voted for Ron.. however the promises to rid them of their insane student debt seemed too tempting. Ok so that angle is covered.

Next group of people who would support Rand? Conservatives / Constitutionalists. Ok, how do we siphon that group from him? Ted Cruz. All the pied piper talking heads who pretend they care about the constitution only to lead their viewers astray when it matters the most (ensuring what they claim they're for never really happens) push Ted Cruz hard. "He's Rand Paul, but better on foreign policy".

What remaining people wouldve went to Rand? People who realize the media is bull$#@! and that being an enemy of the media actually makes you look good cuz you know they're corrupt..Obviously they set up Donald Trump to be against the media to help him win.. It may have seemed like it was to hurt him, but it was only to ensure that he was labeled the anti-media candidate. If they truly wanted Trump to lose, they wouldn't have given him nearly as much air time. What's a few million dollars vs losing your control of media if you truly thought he was a non-corrupt guy who would rid them of corruption if elected?

A portion of the remaining people left to support Rand are young people who've done extensive research when it comes to the government, economy, foreign policy..but a lot of those people dont have the money to donate to his campaign.

Now tell me. What could Rand have possibly done against this and billions of dollars that would've garnered him nearly enough support to be viable? You can't compare his campaign to Ron's. When Ron ran, he didnt have all these fake groups created to steal his support. He stood alone in being against government intrusion and media bias and for the Constitution. Just as how they implemented super delegates to corrupt the electoral process, they've implemented candidates crafted to siphon support from truly good candidates.

This is exactly what I was going to say. Only thing I'd add is they also threw Carson in for Rand's minority outreach.

"ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

"Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

The dead horse of how Trump could have been beat has long since rotted away. The question now isn't about how to beat a particular candidate, it's how to actually win future elections. The American people voted for Trump, Cruz, Rubio, Kasich and other in large numbers. A lot stayed home instead but that's true of any election. Bottom line short of converting the general population to liberty you need to appeal to the average man on the street who voted for these other guys.

every election is different, if Trump wasn't in the race his whole coalition would have been won by other candidates for different reasons. You can try to learn from history but you can't replicate it. Especially since Trump is now the head of state, the candidates of 2020 won't be running against Crooked Hillary, they will be trying to win the primary and whoever does will be trying to sell the idea of continued Republican leadership. In other words they will have to deal with Trump's baggage of 4 years while having none of his assets of 2016.

You can't win a Republican primary with the youth vote, because it barely exists. Anyone who's spent time at the polls on a primary election day knows that. Now, maybe the youth can propel you from 45% to 51% so it shouldn't be discounted.

You can't win a primary by relying solely on ideology. You need to have a coalition of ideological voters along with people who you appeal to on a more emotional level. You need to have strategy but you also need to keep it simple. Make America Great again was marketing genius. It worked better than any other slogan because everyone repeated it even those who made fun of Trump from all angles. You need a candidate to be viewed as the most something in the polls, trustworthy? strong? most likely to shake things up? There are countless ways to win votes

We need to win. But we got our asses kicked last time. Time to face reality.

Originally Posted by dannno

It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.

You can't win a Republican primary with the youth vote, because it barely exists. Anyone who's spent time at the polls on a primary election day knows that. Now, maybe the youth can propel you from 45% to 51% so it shouldn't be discounted.

I'll go so far as to say (for the time being at least) you can't win the Republican primary IF you have the youth vote. The Republican primary winner will have natural appeal to 70+ voters. Rand might have that in 20 or 30 years. The people who determine the Republican candidate will run screaming from youth, new ideas and progress. trump, to the good fortune of his supporters, had none of these.

Make America Great again was marketing genius. It worked better than any other slogan because everyone repeated it even those who made fun of Trump from all angles.

It also massively appealed to 70+ who naturally want things to go back to how they used to be, whatever and whenever that was.

Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

The dead horse of how Trump could have been beat has long since rotted away. The question now isn't about how to beat a particular candidate, it's how to actually win future elections. The American people voted for Trump, Cruz, Rubio, Kasich and other in large numbers. A lot stayed home instead but that's true of any election. Bottom line short of converting the general population to liberty you need to appeal to the average man on the street who voted for these other guys.

every election is different, if Trump wasn't in the race his whole coalition would have been won by other candidates for different reasons. You can try to learn from history but you can't replicate it. Especially since Trump is now the head of state, the candidates of 2020 won't be running against Crooked Hillary, they will be trying to win the primary and whoever does will be trying to sell the idea of continued Republican leadership. In other words they will have to deal with Trump's baggage of 4 years while having none of his assets of 2016.

You can't win a Republican primary with the youth vote, because it barely exists. Anyone who's spent time at the polls on a primary election day knows that. Now, maybe the youth can propel you from 45% to 51% so it shouldn't be discounted.

You can't win a primary by relying solely on ideology. You need to have a coalition of ideological voters along with people who you appeal to on a more emotional level. You need to have strategy but you also need to keep it simple. Make America Great again was marketing genius. It worked better than any other slogan because everyone repeated it even those who made fun of Trump from all angles. You need a candidate to be viewed as the most something in the polls, trustworthy? strong? most likely to shake things up? There are countless ways to win votes

We need to win. But we got our asses kicked last time. Time to face reality.

Spot-on analysis.

The perception was that Trump was the outsider. He established that from the start. Whether or not that was or is actually the case is irrelevant, because in the eyes of the voters, by process of elimination, anyone who attacked him from that point on was considered establishment. Rand would have done better to hold his fire a bit longer in the race until the field became narrowed so that he might actually have debated Trump on policy (the current state of debates is pretty lousy, though, 'Candidate X, what is your favorite color? Now to candidate B, what is your response to candidate X's reply?'). Even so, watching these candidates line up to attack Trump was watching a fight in a low budget ninja film. I had to close my eyes at times.

Senator Rand Paul said on Sunday night that even though the president is raising millions for a 2020 campaign, Republicans should not assume he's running.

“There could well be a primary," the junior senator from Kentucky said on MSNBC, after being asked if a 2020 primary would be good for the Republican Party.

Paul had prefaced his remark by saying Republicans "need to know [if] President Trump [is] running for re-election. I think you won't know that until you get into sort of second, third year of his presidency."

Paul’s comment echoes what Trump insider and New Jersey Governor Chris Christie told the Today show's Matt Lauer on October 27: "If he runs again I would support him, yes, but I'm not so sure what will happen."

I don't think Mike Pence can unite our political factions, and until the Democrats unify behind a much younger
POTUS contender, Bernie and Hillary will go at it anew. Both parties need to find a new consensus, Trump has
divided us even worse. I have not seen our country this angry in my long 6 decade lifetime. We have a dearth
of leadership not unlike the generation that fought our great Civil War. We need to repair our political process
to drive the fast & easy money from it. Each change from now on has to be carefully thought out, not feckless.

I don't think Mike Pence can unite our political factions, and until the Democrats unify behind a much younger
POTUS contender, Bernie and Hillary will go at it anew. Both parties need to find a new consensus, Trump has
divided us even worse. I have not seen our country this angry in my long 6 decade lifetime. We have a dearth
of leadership not unlike the generation that fought our great Civil War. We need to repair our political process
to drive the fast & easy money from it. Each change from now on has to be carefully thought out, not feckless.

Allright Nostradamus, anything else you would like to enlighten us with? I also admire your impeccable text alignment. Great job.

Allright Nostradamus, anything else you would like to enlighten us with? I also admire your impeccable text alignment. Great job.

I keep on forgetting what looks tidy on my lil ole tablet might be jumbled up prose-poems to Dadaism on someone else's system interface. Admittedly I did not even start to opine on the abysmal trouncing many GOP types just recieved at the polls over much of yesterday. This was not even a bi-election, only special elections had D.C seats in play, this all was pretty much state and local contests. This is an odd numbered year, expect 2018 to be brutal on the GOP as the party hacks avoid D.J Trump like the plague. Control in the House is in play, the Senate is about to flip in a big way. Moderate Republicans sense a voter backlash, they are in a tough position for they must defend POTUS to the voters knowing fully well his chosen few are making out like bandits or even hogs at the slopping trough... Trump's GOP foes only get crumbs from his table. Everyone knows how the public monies are being looted at the current hour. This administration is very corrupt. Problem is, the younger voters tend to be idealistic, honest and think Democrat. Trump's many scandals are sinking right wing Republicans. Senator Rand Paul is one of the few candidates on the Republican right who does not look like he's on the take. He alone has a chance in 2020 because he has been honest with the voters...

Ideas only matter if you have a platform for them. When dems take over the senate in 2018 then no conservative idea will see the light of day though no conservative legislation will pass under republican control either.

That would be an interesting scenario if Pence for some inexplicable reason, not able to go for a second term. We already know that Trump likes Rand and listens to him. If Rand could somehow be the vice-president for Trump's second term, that would definitely give him the momentum to run for president after Trump.

OH PLEASE. Rand killed his own chances. He did it all by himself. If he had wanted to kill his campaign, he couldn't have done a better job of it. Now, THAT is the truth. Deal with it.

When Trump got in the race it suddenly became Trump News, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Multiple news networks were showing his campaign stops in their entirety. I'd never seen anything like that before. I'm assuming the networks did that because Trump didn't have a filter and he got ratings when he was on. Same with all those late night talk show hosts had Trump in deep rotation since it was so easy to write jokes about him. If I remember correctly, Trump got 30,000 times more coverage than all the other Republican candidates combined.

That was the real problem. The MSM's coverage was so one-sided, that they essentially helped Trump get into the White House. Now they're horrified.

That would be an interesting scenario if Pence for some inexplicable reason, not able to go for a second term. We already know that Trump likes Rand and listens to him. If Rand could somehow be the vice-president for Trump's second term, that would definitely give him the momentum to run for president after Trump.

I am sure Trump has a price tag if we could just start a kickstarter we might be able to buy access to the Trump presidency. Maybe we could get Ron Paul on a moneybomb or something. Even then I don't think we could out bid the kochs or Exxon.

I'll go so far as to say (for the time being at least) you can't win the Republican primary IF you have the youth vote. The Republican primary winner will have natural appeal to 70+ voters. Rand might have that in 20 or 30 years. The people who determine the Republican candidate will run screaming from youth, new ideas and progress. trump, to the good fortune of his supporters, had none of these.

Trump was unpopular among millennials, but wildly popular among the so called General Zyklon . Indeed, his overwhelming support among the white youth of Generation Z is higher than any other age cohort, including 70+ voters. And I think you saw that play out in the campaign. Trump was by far the cooler, hipper, candidate who had all the creative energy of the youth working for him.

Exactly, Trump's building himself a political dynasty, like many others past. He's in this to win yuuuge, not quit after 4 years.

But Rand definitely did the right thing (in terms of staying on Trump's good side) by suggesting Trump might not run because that is surely the posture Trump himself is going to take. Trump will want his announcement that he's running again to be as dramatic as possible so he's going to float the idea that he's "deliberating" on whether or not to run for another term in the build up to the big reveal.

But Rand definitely did the right thing (in terms of staying on Trump's good side) by suggesting Trump might not run because that is surely the posture Trump himself is going to take. Trump will want his announcement that he's running again to be as dramatic as possible so he's going to float the idea that he's "deliberating" on whether or not to run for another term in the build up to the big reveal.

"ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

"Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

he is building a dynasty, which is why he may not run; none of his children would run while he is inoffice, but I can see a scenario where Trump steps down in 2020; and Ivanka runs for gov of NY in 2022' people will be sick of Cuomo by then; 75 is a practical time to step down.