But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. the opening of the veil within the heart

So why does faith please god? Does it have to be faith instead of knowledge, if so why? What if people were proven by angels that god exists?

HartleyIrvinDamboiseII

It seems that a lot of people can't explain the answers to the simplest questions about Christianity. I would be one of those people who can't find an answer to some of them.

So, how exactly did the lord & savior jesus "save" mankind? I'm looking for technical details on how and also goes along with scripture.

So any explanation, I believe, should make sense with the following:

WARNING , THIS IS ONLY MY THOUGHTS AND NOT THE THOUGHTS OF MOST MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM.....

Why people in paradise did not go to heaven until jesus was in the process of being resurrected back to life?

Knowing nothing is peace, bliss, unseen, paradise for the system of law before rezz day.

Why people will still go to hades after jesus died (until judgement day) if jesus supposedly "took away" all future sin?

[/list]one side is that the unseen is a place of knowing nothing ,feeling , tasteing, hearing smelling, seeing, don't happen. IMO , judgementday happened 2011 years ago give or take. and 3 he took away all sin, ( transgression of the Law is sin) so if I choose not to follow the old system that IS DONE AWAY WITH, then I am a part of the new Life IN Christ. and never have to worry about being a sinner, sinners are law followers, ( not meeeeee ) So when he took away sin, he did, so all are in Christ now, believers and non believers

[/glow]

Why you become a new creation when you are "in" christ?

Why, because that was His Father's Plan, and it happened 2011 years ago......

The purpose of jesus forgiving anyone (before his death) if nobody is able to go to heaven without believing.

He forgave because it was the way of things for followers of Law, its in the tora-law, and with out believing is a false hood taught by your church and not Christ

How a believer can commit the sin of no longer believing or lusting/hating anything if they cannot sin?

because any church today makes laws that have to be followed if you want to be right with God, or for them be a ( believer ),,, it is a man made system of what I I I call a self reenforced diluion not of God.

If believers are sinless on earth, why were the disciples rebuked by jesus from time to time? (Luke 9:46-48, Luke 9:49-50, Luke 9:51-56, Mark 8:33, & many more)

because at the time of the rebuke He had not completed his mission of becoming the son of God by the things he learned, and rezz.

Why are people in heaven incapable of committing sin unlike the angels that rebelled?

because there is too much symbolism in most of that store i.e. a messenger is just another person that brings a message , ( good or bad ) of God or Carnal delivery. In heaven is in YOU. Me and all things made of adams, and all the space inbetween... all things

Why do people in heaven not desire to sin?

I do desire sin, but I don't use a system of Law to get my Completeness, oneness, one with God. or Limited pardon, I am jusified....

How the sacrifice/resurrection allows people to get a new heart and spirit?

answer in a question for only you to answer, did the childern born after Adam and Eve feel that they were bad, evil , sinner etc. ok, hint, All things got the new heart and Spirit 2011 years ago, it is just when GOD opens your mind to see Him will you feel the change

Why did Jesus need to sacrifice himself and raise himself from the dead?

because that was the prophecy in the writings the He had to do what he did to bring all I said above.

Hi;Why do we die?Gal 5;17 " For the flesh covets against the Spirit, but the Spirit against the flesh for these things are opposed to one another."

vs 24 " And they who are of Christ have crucified the flesh with it's susceptibilities and covetings. If we live by Spirit let us also walk by Spirit. Let us not become vain-glorious, challenging one another, envying one another."

Flesh vs Spirit.Gal 6;12-16 " As many as are wishing to make a good show in flesh, the same are compelling you to get circumcised only for the cross of Jesus Christ that they may not be suffering persecution! For not even they who are getting circumcised are observing the law, but are wishing you to be circumcised, that they may boast themselves in your flesh.However, Far be it with me to be boasting save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ whereby a world has been crucified to me and I to a world: for neither circumcision is anything nor uncircumcision but a new creation; and as many as shall walk by this rule peace and mercy be upon them."

That is the struggle. If we live by the flesh we are under the law and suffer many consequences. If we live by the spirit we know about the flesh and are confident that Christ paid our price in full and we are learning what life is all about. His plan is perfect and He shows us bit by bit so that we may grow in grace and knowledge. If we focus on this age without knowing about the coming age then there is no hope. This age is a phase of development. Just like ion the army where scouts are sent out before the main troops come through, the apostles were sent out as scouts. We are being collected for the next skirmish. Then the troops will come in behind us.Our Father the General lets everyone know the mission when it is their turn to know the next phase.Is the Father greater than the devil and the flesh? 1 Cor 1;27 "The foolish things of the world has God chosen that He might put to shame them who are wise, and the weak things of the world has God chosen that He might put to shame the things that are mighty, and the low-born things of the world has God chosen and the things that are not, that He might bring to nought the things that are so that NO FLESH should boast before God."

On the spiritual encouragement side of things;Eph 3;3-6 " By way of revelation was made known to me the sacred secret, even as I wrote before in brief, regarding which you can by reading perceive my discernment in the sacred secret[mystery] of the Christ,- which had not been made known to sons of men in other generations as it has NOW been revealed by His apostles and prophets in Spirit; that they who are of the nations should be joint heirs and a joint body and joint partakers of the promise IN Christ Jesus through means of the glad-message."

By the cross Christ has paid our debt in full.We are part of the new creation.His love covers us for ALL our mistakes and learning process.We will be above angels.Isn't that good news?

Hi;Why do we die?Gal 5;17 " For the flesh covets against the Spirit, but the Spirit against the flesh for these things are opposed to one another."

vs 24 " And they who are of Christ have crucified the flesh with it's susceptibilities and covetings. If we live by Spirit let us also walk by Spirit. Let us not become vain-glorious, challenging one another, envying one another."

Flesh vs Spirit.Gal 6;12-16 " As many as are wishing to make a good show in flesh, the same are compelling you to get circumcised only for the cross of Jesus Christ that they may not be suffering persecution! For not even they who are getting circumcised are observing the law, but are wishing you to be circumcised, that they may boast themselves in your flesh.However, Far be it with me to be boasting save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ whereby a world has been crucified to me and I to a world: for neither circumcision is anything nor uncircumcision but a new creation; and as many as shall walk by this rule peace and mercy be upon them."

That is the struggle. If we live by the flesh we are under the law and suffer many consequences. If we live by the spirit we know about the flesh and are confident that Christ paid our price in full and we are learning what life is all about. His plan is perfect and He shows us bit by bit so that we may grow in grace and knowledge. If we focus on this age without knowing about the coming age then there is no hope. This age is a phase of development. Just like ion the army where scouts are sent out before the main troops come through, the apostles were sent out as scouts. We are being collected for the next skirmish. Then the troops will come in behind us.Our Father the General lets everyone know the mission when it is their turn to know the next phase.Is the Father greater than the devil and the flesh? 1 Cor 1;27 "The foolish things of the world has God chosen that He might put to shame them who are wise, and the weak things of the world has God chosen that He might put to shame the things that are mighty, and the low-born things of the world has God chosen and the things that are not, that He might bring to nought the things that are so that NO FLESH should boast before God."

On the spiritual encouragement side of things;Eph 3;3-6 " By way of revelation was made known to me the sacred secret, even as I wrote before in brief, regarding which you can by reading perceive my discernment in the sacred secret[mystery] of the Christ,- which had not been made known to sons of men in other generations as it has NOW been revealed by His apostles and prophets in Spirit; that they who are of the nations should be joint heirs and a joint body and joint partakers of the promise IN Christ Jesus through means of the glad-message."

By the cross Christ has paid our debt in full.We are part of the new creation.His love covers us for ALL our mistakes and learning process.We will be above angels.Isn't that good news?

Loved that. Thanks.

17 That the Christ may dwell, through means of your faith, in your hearts, in love, having become rooted and founded, 18 In order that ye may be mighty enough to grasp firmly, with all the saints,--what is the breadth and length and depth and height, 19 To get to know, also, the knowledge-surpassing, love of the Christ,--in order that ye may be filled unto all the fulness of God: 20 Now, unto him who is able to do, above all things, exceeding abundantly above the things which we ask or conceive,--according to the power which doth energise itself within us,-- 21 Unto him, be the glory, in the assembly, and in Christ Jesus--unto all the generations of the age of ages; Amen:-- --Eph 3

Why people will still go to hades after jesus died (until judgement day) if jesus supposedly "took away" all future sin?

[/list]one side is that the unseen is a place of knowing nothing ,feeling , tasteing, hearing smelling, seeing, don't happen. IMO , judgementday happened 2011 years ago give or take. and 3 he took away all sin, ( transgression of the Law is sin) so if I choose not to follow the old system that IS DONE AWAY WITH, then I am a part of the new Life IN Christ. and never have to worry about being a sinner, sinners are law followers, ( not meeeeee ) So when he took away sin, he did, so all are in Christ now, believers and non believers

[/glow]

There is so many things wrong here that I don't know where to begin. Jesus did not change a letter of the law. By "old system" I think you mean the law. So following the law in the old testament did not get anyone out of hades. Everyone during the old testament time was only righteous by faith, not by the good/bad things they did. Jesus did not take away all sin. If he had done so then satan wouldn't be going to the lake of fire and people wouldn't be going to hades after they die. Pretty much the only major things that changed before and after jesus's resurrection is that believers go directly to heaven after they die instead of paradise and it's much easier to have faith in god by believing the god in flesh form, jesus.

You said that if you choose to not follow the old system then your part of the new life in christ and you also said that everyone is in christ. So what if someone does choose to follow the old system, you apparently contradict yourself. You can't say everyone is in christ and say that those who follow the old system aren't in christ at the same time. All those verses that say unbelievers are condemned in the new testament don't mean anything?

How a believer can commit the sin of no longer believing or lusting/hating anything if they cannot sin?

because any church today makes laws that have to be followed if you want to be right with God, or for them be a ( believer ),,, it is a man made system of what I I I call a self reenforced diluion not of God.

Not true, not all doctrines say that you need to do any rituals or follow any rules to get to heaven. The way to get to heaven is by faith alone.

If believers are sinless on earth, why were the disciples rebuked by jesus from time to time? (Luke 9:46-48, Luke 9:49-50, Luke 9:51-56, Mark 8:33, & many more)

because at the time of the rebuke He had not completed his mission of becoming the son of God by the things he learned, and rezz.

He had not completed his mission of becoming the son of god? You mean he wasn't the "son of god" yet? People in OT were deemed righteous by faith, so these disciples had faith in jesus, who was and still is the god in flesh form.

Why are people in heaven incapable of committing sin unlike the angels that rebelled?

because there is too much symbolism in most of that store i.e. a messenger is just another person that brings a message , ( good or bad ) of God or Carnal delivery. In heaven is in YOU. Me and all things made of adams, and all the space inbetween... all things

I do desire sin, but I don't use a system of Law to get my Completeness, oneness, one with God. or Limited pardon, I am jusified....

So your saying that the law doesn't effect you anymore so even if you do evil things that doesn't mean your sinning? Your gift of "salvation" can only be received after death. The holy spirit is a deposit that guarantees this.

Ephesians 1:14"who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory. "

A deposit means that you don't have inheritance yet. Otherwise it wouldn't be a deposit guaranteeing anything.

Nothing impure will ever be allowed in heaven and sinful actions won't be done in heaven, the law is ALWAYS in effect and never changes, you cannot do sinful actions in heaven.

rev 21:27 "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. "

By impure, it means a heart that desires to lust, hate, love things on earth, etc... Wants to sin/break the law in any way.

How the sacrifice/resurrection allows people to get a new heart and spirit?

answer in a question for only you to answer, did the childern born after Adam and Eve feel that they were bad, evil , sinner etc. ok, hint, All things got the new heart and Spirit 2011 years ago, it is just when GOD opens your mind to see Him will you feel the change

All things got a new heart and spirit 2011 years ago? Really? How do you explain the many many warnings about going to hades? Why would they bother with all the warnings if ppl went to heaven if they do not believe? If all things got a new heart and spirit 2011 years ago, why are there going to be people emptied out of hades to the great white throne?

Why would there be a prophecy in the writing that he had to do what he did?

Why not? Are you here to learn something or just ask questions that never can be answered?Why laws, prophesies or even creation exists no one can answer. They do exist. And those prophesies are pointing to Jesus and what He did.

Quote

Nothing impure will ever be allowed in heaven and sinful actions won't be done in heaven, the law is ALWAYS in effect and never changes, you cannot do sinful actions in heaven.

Name one person, not being Jesus, that can enter heaven. You can't because nobody (besides Jesus) is worthy entering heaven.Will heaven be empty for ever? If not how people can enter heaven. Think about that.Believing in Jesus is only part of the answer. All believers are still sinners when they die. With your reasoning they continue their sinful actions and therefore have no chance ever entering heaven.Understand that little puzzle and you have the answer to many of your questions.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 03:58:00 PM by WhiteWings »

Logged

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

That question is no different than if I asked someone why they plan to move to another state. By the way, water is wet (viscous) because of dipole-dipole interactions, hydrogen bonds, and London dispersion forces. So every question appears to be answerable if you have the information on hand.

Why would there be a prophecy in the writing that he had to do what he did?

Why not? Are you here to learn something or just ask questions that never can be answered?Why laws, prophesies or even creation exists no one can answer. They do exist. And those prophesies are pointing to Jesus and what He did.

So nobody can answer why jesus would save us? Nobody can answer why sin gets people to hades?

Nothing impure will ever be allowed in heaven and sinful actions won't be done in heaven, the law is ALWAYS in effect and never changes, you cannot do sinful actions in heaven.

Name one person, not being Jesus, that can enter heaven. You can't because nobody (besides Jesus) is worthy entering heaven.Will heaven be empty for ever? If not how people can enter heaven. Think about that.Believing in Jesus is only part of the answer. All believers are still sinners when they die. With your reasoning they continue their sinful actions and therefore have no chance ever entering heaven.Understand that little puzzle and you have the answer to many of your questions.

[/quote]

So you still don't get why believers are called god's children.2 timothy 2:11 - died with jesus and live with him? Romans 6:82 Corinthians 4:10 - always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.2 Corinthians 4:11

if you're not getting what you're looking for, why don't you tell us what you think?

believing Jesus saves, God decreed it, we're saved by faith given by God to believe on Jesus, in the final analysis is enough for me. Further details are a bonus.

do you have something beneficial to add?

p.s. rightly divide Jesus' earthly ministry to the Jews prior to the cross and their judgment in 70 AD with the free gift of grace post-cross. The rich man and lazarus was a parable about the Jewish nation and the Gentiles. Jesus has bridged the chasm, but the Jewish nation as a whole are still unable to see it, as their veil has not been lifted. They will not be given the faith and sight to believe until "the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved". Rom 11:26

Your questions have been answered, you just can't see them for the smog and the smoke from the hell fire issues that has your eyes blinded.

You asked this. So you still don't get why believers are called god's children.

We are called God's children because he is our Father and we are all of the family of God (Eph. 3:15).

You said "nobody can answer why sin gets people to hades". The answer is, because the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Everyone of us has sinned and all are in sinful flesh, therefore all will die and go to the grave/hades.

You said, "explain (Acts 2:27) " Because you will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

David talking to God said, that God wouldn't leave him in the grave, neither would he allow Jesus to rot or decay but would resurrect him before he decayed.

You keep asking how Jesus saves us? The question should be, how DID Jesus save us? Jesus saved us by living a perfect life. By dying and being resurrected he guarentees us the same destiny. Our sins were imputed to Christ, Christ was punished for us. All of this was done without any works on our part.

You said "nobody can answer why sin gets people to hades". The answer is, because the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Everyone of us has sinned and all are in sinful flesh, therefore all will die and go to the grave/hades.

That was meant to be a rhetorical question. So are we all going to die and go to hades, stop existing, or become a new creature?

You said, "explain (Acts 2:27) " Because you will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

David talking to God said, that God wouldn't leave him in the grave, neither would he allow Jesus to rot or decay but would resurrect him before he decayed.

The hell in acts 2:27 is hades (http://biblos.com/acts/2-27.htm), not the grave. You are misinterpreting the verse, I provided the greek proving that this is not the grave but hades. So he's asking to not be left in hades? I thought he went to paradise? Proof that paradise is in hades.

Jesus saved us by living a perfect life. By dying and being resurrected he guarentees us the same destiny. Our sins were literally imputed to Christ, Christ was punished for us. All of this was done without any works on our part.

So if jesus saved us by living a perfect life as your first sentence says, then why did he need to die and be resurrected?For your second sentence, who exactly is "us"? Believers or everyone?How does he dying and being resurrected guarantee us the same destiny?If our sins were imputed to christ, then why were people in paradise still there until jesus was resurrected?

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

'The power of death'--I suppose it might seem powerful to just wipe people off the playing field like so many irrelevant bit players in a video game--but the real power of death seems to me to include the ability to hold men in captivity for aeons.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

'The power of death'--I suppose it might seem powerful to just wipe people off the playing field like so many irrelevant bit players in a video game--but the real power of death seems to me to include the ability to hold men in captivity for aeons.

But he who held that power--diabolos-- was destroyed 2000 years ago.

YES- tHE VERY ADVERSARY, THE ENEMY, THE LIAR, THE THEIF ITSELF"The carnal mind"

Logged

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

'The power of death'--I suppose it might seem powerful to just wipe people off the playing field like so many irrelevant bit players in a video game--but the real power of death seems to me to include the ability to hold men in captivity for aeons.

But he who held that power--diabolos-- was destroyed 2000 years ago.

YES- tHE VERY ADVERSARY, THE ENEMY, THE LIAR, THE THEIF ITSELF"The carnal mind"

Man was given the carnal mind in the garden by the Nephesh.

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

You said "nobody can answer why sin gets people to hades". The answer is, because the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Everyone of us has sinned and all are in sinful flesh, therefore all will die and go to the grave/hades.

Quote from: nes

That was meant to be a rhetorical question. So are we all going to die and go to hades, stop existing, or become a new creature?

After we are resurrected, we become immortal. We are all going to die but of course you know this?

You said, "explain (Acts 2:27) " Because you will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

David talking to God said, that God wouldn't leave him in the grave, neither would he allow Jesus to rot or decay but would resurrect him before he decayed.

Quote from: nes

The hell in acts 2:27 is hades (http://biblos.com/acts/2-27.htm), not the grave. You are misinterpreting the verse, I provided the greek proving that this is not the grave but hades. So he's asking to not be left in hades? I thought he went to paradise? Proof that paradise is in hades.

Hades is the state or resting place of the dead. To me that means the grave. Where are all the dead people at? Go to any grave yard and and you can dig up anyone that has died and been buried there.

You keep asking how Jesus saves us? The question should be, how DID Jesus save us?

Quote from: nes

That's not true. Read the topic, it says "How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?" There isn't much of a difference between "how jesus saves us" and "how did jesus save us".

The difference is, present and past tense. Jesus has already saved the world, most just don't realize it. John said "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world".The world has been saved the whole time, God is just bringing us all through the wilderness, so that we get to know him.

Jesus saved us by living a perfect life. By dying and being resurrected he guarentees us the same destiny. Our sins were literally imputed to Christ, Christ was punished for us. All of this was done without any works on our part.

Quote from: nes

So if jesus saved us by living a perfect life as your first sentence says, then why did he need to die and be resurrected?For your second sentence, who exactly is "us"? Believers or everyone?How does he dying and being resurrected guarantee us the same destiny?If our sins were imputed to christ, then why were people in paradise still there until jesus was resurrected?

Re-read your question. Us is mankind. Show me some scripture that proves that people were in paradise until Jesus was resurrected.

Where and what is paradise? Who do you think goes there? By the resurrection of Jesus he defeated death and because he was resurrected so will every one else be resurrected in their own time period.