penaltyshot wrote:1. I wasn't discussing morality, I was discussing policy and how it relates (or rather, how it noes not relate at all) to whether Medicare covers a particular item.

But to Catholics this IS about morality. That's the reason they're raising this fuss.

penaltyshot wrote:3. You are changing the discussion here to one you'd rather talk about, and that's fine, but I have had no comment on how they treat their non-Catholic employees because this was not part of the point being made by the person to whom I originally responded. However, I do feel that when you accept a job, you accept the job as offered, and that includes the health coverage they do -- or do not -- offer. If you don't like the offer, wait for a better one.

Yeah, that's right along the lines of "if you don't like being discriminated against, find another job."

1. For them it's about morality, but it's also about rights and law and that's what I'm interested in discussing. I'm not particularly interested in their morality, but I am interested in their rights under our laws.

2. Discrimination of just about every type IS against the law. If you get hired to a job and find you're discriminated against, you have legal options... but discrimination is not what I'm talking about; you've made a connection that doesn't exist. Deciding to not provide one service or item to any of your customers or to your employees (provided that you deny it completely and to everybody regardless) is NOT discrimination, and it is NOT against the law... even if it's something that's legal to buy elsewhere or that other employers routinely provide.

penaltyshot wrote:I don't agree with the Catholic church's stance on birth control any more than I agree with the Jewish faith's stance on eating pork or many Muslim guidelines on how women are to dress... but they beauty of it is, I'm not Catholic, Jewish, or Muslim, so none of that applies to me at all.

And despite all the claims and bluster I've read here, I haven't really ever seen any evidence that the Catholic Church has tried to inhibit me, a non-Catholic, from buying and using birth control. The only thing I've read about is that they don't want to be forced to provide it in Catholic hospitals, and I don't have a problem with that. Despite it being my right as an American to eat pork, I haven't heard of anybody trying to force a Jewish restaurant to serve me a ham sandwich, have you?

If you have a big problem with the Catholic Church's stance on birth control, then either pick another church if you're Catholic, or mind your own business if you aren't.

If you run a hospital that serves the public, hires people of multiple faiths, and takes taxpayer dollars (i.e., Medicare and Medicaid), you don't get to claim that religious beliefs exempt your hospital from public policy.

If the Catholic church has a problem with that, they should get out of the hospital business.

Your argument is not nearly as strong as you seem to think it is. Contraceptives are not a "public policy" simply because the government pays for them. Medicare and Medicaid cover asprin, too, but my school district won't give it to my kid at school without my permission... "policy" has nothing to do with how something is paid for. The creation and execution of each and every policy of individual, private institutions does not fall under the authority of the US government, and I for one am very glad of that.

As has been pointed out, this has nothing to do with your right to decide what medical care the school can provide to your minor child.

Contraceptives are legal, and they will soon be mandated to be covered by health insurance. That IS public policy. The government will not be paying for them, people will be paying for them with their insurance premiums, as they do now.

Or to carry your argument to a ridiculous extreme, if I hire a hit man to kill my business rival, but I pay with it using bills printed and backed by the U.S. Government, does that then make such an act U.S. Government policy? I mean, it says right on there, "The United States of America. Legal tender for all debts public and private."

Yes, that is ridiculous, but it is in no way an extension of my argument. Try again.

Catholic hospitals accept Medicare/Medicaid because that is all many of their patients have in order to pay for services. It is not the Church that solicits these funds, it is their patients who pay with them. So you're essentially suggesting that these hospitals either deny care to anyone who is covered by Medicare and Medicaid, or that they "get out of the hospital business" entirely. I ask you, if the Catholic hospitals in the U.S. were to deny health care to anybody who attempts to pay with Medicare or Medicaid, would you applaud them for their ethically impenetrable stance, or would you trash them for allowing their beliefs to deny these people access to the health care they apparently need?

If they want to refuse to take Medicare and Medicaid, AND every other form of government subsidy, so that they can force their religious views on patients and employees, I am fine with that. However, they will have to stop pretending to serve and hire the pubic and just be honest about operating as a church, not a business. But since one of the biggies in Christian theology (according to that Jesus guy) is serving the poor, not denying birth control, I don't think I'd be the hypocritical one in this situation.

The Catholic Church is not telling you that you can't use birth control, they're not even saying that the US Government shouldn't pay for birth control... they're simply saying that no matter who's paying for it, they don't believe it's right for them to provide it. If you can't just accept that and allow Catholic hospitals to continue helping the millions of people they have helped, then you are a far larger hypocrite than any of them.

I'm sorry, but no, I cannot accept that a hospital funded by my tax dollars has the right to deprive their patients or their employees of legal health services based on their religious beliefs.

And if that makes me a bigger hypocrite than a lot of old "celibate" child-molesters in funny hats trying to deny half the human race access to basic healthcare, then so be it. Although I can't imagine under what insane definition of the word "hypocrite" that could be so.

Religions can believe anything they want in this country. It is guaranteed by our Bill of Rights, so I don't fear the government interfering in my private faith as much as rigid religious orthodoxy trying to codifying social issues to make everyone do as they believe. We only have to look at the Middle East to see how destructive this is. Contraception has done more to give women a choice on how to live our lives than any other invention. Look how many women really follow the Catholic laws against contraception and how many quietly use them anyway. American women will not tolerate limits on contraception. The genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back. If we have a choice of where our tax dollars go, I'll put mine into public contraception. Oh wait...we don't.

You have brains in your head.You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose.- Dr. Suess

frederickus wrote:The problem is that the catholic church is now trying harder than ever to restrict access to reproductive health care. Benny The Rat just keeps on issuing edicts that even most catholics will never adhere to. Don't bother asking me to quote. Look it up for yourself. Oh, wait, you are catholic. You're supposed to know this stuff.

Oh, why don't you throw one of those scholarly wiki articles in there? Or how about one of the Yahoo! Answers pages the progressive haters are so fond of?

Better yet, explain how the catholic church is restricting healthcare to anyone outside of contraceptives and abortions? You can't...like most haters.

The Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health contains 72 directives from Catholic Bishops that forbid Catholic facilities from providing many services. Fortunately for Catholic hospitals they do not have to inform patients of this fact, so many patients never realize they are not being provided or informed of treatments that Catholic Bishops object to.

There are many cases in which woman seeking healthcare in Catholic hospitals have had their health compromised. Woman suffering from a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy may not receive standard care in a Catholic hospital. In cases where a fetus is not expelled quickly during a miscarriage, some Catholic hospitals will not use drugs or surgical procedures to prevent fatal infections and bleeding in the woman if the fetus still has a heartbeat. Standard care for an ectopic pregnancy is to use drugs or surgically remove an embryo from the fallopian tube to preserve a woman’s fertility. Some Catholic hospitals view this as taking action against the embryo so instead they remove the fallopian tube. The fetus still dies if the fallopian tube it has implanted in is removed and the woman may no longer be able to bear children, but the church has not violated it‘s conscience by directly killing a fetus.A Catholic hospital in Phoenix was stripped of it’s Catholic affiliation and a nun who served on the hospitals ethics committee was ex-communicated from the church for of saving a patients life. The patient was 11 weeks pregnant and had pulmonary hypertension, if her pregnancy was not terminated she would have lost her life. Many woman are not aware that when they walk thru the doors of a Catholic hospital their health is not only in the hands of themselves and their doctor, it will also be in the hands of an ethical board whose Catholic members may face excommunication if they do anything that a Bishop believes violates Catholic teachings. An organization that does not value for the life of their patient above all else should not be running hospitals.

These people need to get dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, or else they will be around to witness the end of their church. They have always tried to control other people's lives, but in this day and age they need to understand that there are certain realities that they have no control over, include people's sexuality.

I say this as a Christian who tries to be respectful of other people's belief. They would be better off, and more respected, if they would stick to the teachings of Jesus Christ rather than trying to dictate to other people how they should conduct themselves in the bedroom.

So many things to say in this debate, but I think in this case I'll go with this one:

I must be dense, but for the life of me I do not understand people/groups that oppose abortions and birth control. Don't they realize the latter decreases the former? I mean, that would almost be like... opposing abortions and birth control!

(i.e., I really can't think of an analogy more absurd than the original example).

chamomile wrote:The Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health contains 72 directives from Catholic Bishops that forbid Catholic facilities from providing many services. Fortunately for Catholic hospitals they do not have to inform patients of this fact, so many patients never realize they are not being provided or informed of treatments that Catholic Bishops object to.

There are many cases in which woman seeking healthcare in Catholic hospitals have had their health compromised. Woman suffering from a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy may not receive standard care in a Catholic hospital. In cases where a fetus is not expelled quickly during a miscarriage, some Catholic hospitals will not use drugs or surgical procedures to prevent fatal infections and bleeding in the woman if the fetus still has a heartbeat. Standard care for an ectopic pregnancy is to use drugs or surgically remove an embryo from the fallopian tube to preserve a woman’s fertility. Some Catholic hospitals view this as taking action against the embryo so instead they remove the fallopian tube. The fetus still dies if the fallopian tube it has implanted in is removed and the woman may no longer be able to bear children, but the church has not violated it‘s conscience by directly killing a fetus.

A Catholic hospital in Phoenix was stripped of it’s Catholic affiliation and a nun who served on the hospitals ethics committee was ex-communicated from the church for of saving a patients life. The patient was 11 weeks pregnant and had pulmonary hypertension, if her pregnancy was not terminated she would have lost her life. Many woman are not aware that when they walk thru the doors of a Catholic hospital their health is not only in the hands of themselves and their doctor, it will also be in the hands of an ethical board whose Catholic members may face excommunication if they do anything that a Bishop believes violates Catholic teachings. An organization that does not value for the life of their patient above all else should not be running hospitals.

(My emphasis)

This is just another example of how the Catholic church abuses women. To the church, a woman is nothing more than a vessel to be used for making more Catholics. It is inhuman to allow the Catholic church to have any say whatsoever in women's health care.

3Fs wrote:So many things to say in this debate, but I think in this case I'll go with this one:

I must be dense, but for the life of me I do not understand people/groups that oppose abortions and birth control. Don't they realize the latter decreases the former? I mean, that would almost be like... opposing abortions and birth control!

(i.e., I really can't think of an analogy more absurd than the original example).

No, you're not dense. The difficulty is that the logic is counter-intuitive. This is why the Church teaches what it teaches as explained by Most Rev. James D. Conley:

The reasons for the correlation between abortion and contraception are clear. The use of contraception is predicated on the premise that we control our fertility. At the heart of the contraceptive mentality is the notion that a couple can engage in sexual activity and avoid its natural consequences. Couples who unintentionally conceive a child while using contraception are far more likely to turn to abortion.

The contraceptive mentality is predicated on the premise that we have absolute control over every aspect of our lives and that we have the right to live according to our own desires and plans.

This mentality subtlety chips away at our trust in and dependence on the providential care of God. It turns us more directly toward ourselves and our selfish wants. And it feeds an egoism in which our own desires and plans become the center of the universe. Gradually but steadily that egoism erodes our conscience.

frederickus wrote:The problem is that the catholic church is now trying harder than ever to restrict access to reproductive health care. Benny The Rat just keeps on issuing edicts that even most catholics will never adhere to. Don't bother asking me to quote. Look it up for yourself. Oh, wait, you are catholic. You're supposed to know this stuff.

Oh, why don't you throw one of those scholarly wiki articles in there? Or how about one of the Yahoo! Answers pages the progressive haters are so fond of?

Better yet, explain how the catholic church is restricting healthcare to anyone outside of contraceptives and abortions? You can't...like most haters.

And why don't YOU explain why it's OK for them to restrict access to contraceptives?

Sorry, the church needs to wake up and smell the 21st century.

It's ok because it is against their teachings. What about this is so hard for you to understand?

I see. So...an organization that's affiliated with a religion has a right to demand that its' employees follow that religion's teachings, even if the employee doesn't follow it? By that logic...

Sex during a woman's period is against Jewish law, therefore National Jewish Hospital, which has God only knows how many non-Jewish employees, should be able to exempt pregnancy/childbirth coverage for people who conceive during a woman's period. What's so hard to understand about that?

Since adultery and sex before marriage are sins under the Catholic church, why should they be required to provide coverage for a pregnancy or childbirth that occurs outside wedlock? What's so hard to understand about that?

(I'll tell you EXACTLY what's hard to understand - why an employer in the United States of America has any damn right to try to push religious beliefs on employees who may or may not even share those beliefs. See anything wrong with that? I sure do.)

If you take federal money, as Catholic hospitals do in the form of Medicare and Medicaid, you should be bound by federal guidelines and policy. You cannot be "pushed" to do anything so long as you do not take taxpayer money. Simple solution: stop taking our tax dollars, and do any kookie thing you want.

whitecat wrote:I'm sorry, but no, I cannot accept that a hospital funded by my tax dollars has the right to deprive their patients or their employees of legal health services based on their religious beliefs.

Here is the basis of why your argument does not hold up: it is emotional rather than factual. If these hospitals were truly funded directly by taxpayer money, then you may have an argument here... the US Army, for example, could not make such a policy as it is actually a government entity. But Catholic hospitals are not government entities, nor are they funded by your tax dollars. They are private businesses (primarily non-profit as I understand) that happen to have many patients who pay for their services with your tax dollars... but that does not mean that you -- or anybody else who pays taxes -- has the right to demand that those funds be used only in ways you see fit. My tax dollars are also used for the food stamp program, but if King Soopers doesn't happen to carry the perfectly legal brand of cereal I want, I have no right to demand they do simply because I am a taxpayer and some of my money is used in their store.

Catholic hospitals are not saying you can't use Medicare funds for birth control, they're only saying that if you wish to use Medicare for birth control you will have to choose another health care provider.. basically, they don't want your business. Like any private business, they may choose what services to offer, and withhold, as long as they are not discriminatory in this practice, and like any consumer you may decide where you want to obtain your health care. The reason any business withholds certain services and offer others (whether it's birth control or cereal) is largely irrelevant; it doesn't matter if it's because of their religious beliefs, staffing concerns, or the price of tea in China... they are running a business and they can choose what services to offer and which ones to withhold, and YOU can choose whether to give them your business, or another hospital or pharmacy.

The issue of what Catholic-based employers must do to remain in compliance for their government-mandated health care is a related but separate issue than whether hospitals should be forced to offer birth control... but it's one of many reasons that government-mandated health care is such a problematic notion.

So many of you are so hung up on whether the Catholic church is right or wrong in their stance against birth control, that you're completely overlooking their legal right to have a different opinion than you on the matter. While I don't agree with the Catholic stance on birth control, I very much defend their right to have a different view of it than I do and to make their decisions based on those beliefs, and the simple fact that they accept government funds as payment for those who need health care completely unrelated to birth control is not a legitimate reason to force them to do things that go against those beliefs in that area.

whitecat wrote:I'm sorry, but no, I cannot accept that a hospital funded by my tax dollars has the right to deprive their patients or their employees of legal health services based on their religious beliefs.

Here is the basis of why your argument does not hold up: it is emotional rather than factual. If these hospitals were truly funded directly by taxpayer money, then you may have an argument here... the US Army, for example, could not make such a policy as it is actually a government entity. But Catholic hospitals are not government entities, nor are they funded by your tax dollars. They are private businesses (primarily non-profit as I understand) that happen to have many patients who pay for their services with your tax dollars... but that does not mean that you -- or anybody else who pays taxes -- has the right to demand that those funds be used only in ways you see fit. My tax dollars are also used for the food stamp program, but if King Soopers doesn't happen to carry the perfectly legal brand of cereal I want, I have no right to demand they do simply because I am a taxpayer and some of my money is used in their store.

Catholic hospitals are not saying you can't use Medicare funds for birth control, they're only saying that if you wish to use Medicare for birth control you will have to choose another health care provider.. basically, they don't want your business. Like any private business, they may choose what services to offer, and withhold, as long as they are not discriminatory in this practice, and like any consumer you may decide where you want to obtain your health care. The reason any business withholds certain services and offer others (whether it's birth control or cereal) is largely irrelevant; it doesn't matter if it's because of their religious beliefs, staffing concerns, or the price of tea in China... they are running a business and they can choose what services to offer and which ones to withhold, and YOU can choose whether to give them your business, or another hospital or pharmacy.

So many of you are so hung up on whether the Catholic church is right or wrong in their stance against birth control, that you're completely overlooking their legal right to have a different opinion than you on the matter. While I don't agree with the Catholic stance on birth control, I very much defend their right to have a different view of it than I do and to make their decisions based on those beliefs, and the simple fact that they accept government funds as payment for those who need health care completely unrelated to birth control is not a legitimate reason to force them to do things that go against those beliefs in that area.

Separate the rights of the Catholic Church to set it's own doctrinal policy from the rights of patients to get standard care. Lets take an emergency room, and lets remove the whole religious question to it to simplify.

Should any hospital be allowed to selectively determine what treatment is available under government health programs, i.e. Medicaid or Medicare? I say no. If a hospital accepts funds under government provided health programs then it must provide standard care to all such reciepients. It's very hard to come at this question, isn't it, without the religious aspect to it, because no hospital would decline treatment if you could pay for it and they provided it. If they failed to provide necessary treatment, it would probably be considered malpractice.

This argument, however, does not cover selective procedures. A vasectomy is a selective procedure, so is tubal ligation, etc. An abortion is a selective procedure unless medically required to preserve the mother's life. Does Medicaid or Medicare cover selective procedures? I think not, so the argument seems kind of moot looked at in that light.