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Yeah, I don't tend to use "metamour" much either, for basically the same reason. MC and TGIB are friends in their own right, and will hopefully be roommates in the future. That's enough labels for me. I can see thinking the word is a little silly, but hating it just seemed a bit strong. And it CAN be a nice shortcut, instead of "my boyfriend's other girlfriend" if it's a situation where I don't know her or don't have my own relationship with her.

I know what it means. She exists, but she doesn't mean anything to me. I'm not putting a title on that. It's a nonexistent relationship, acquaintance deal, or even friendship. It's nothing. She's just the other person. This isn't a Vee because I'm not even treating it like one, so metamour doesn't feel like it fits. She's not part of my family. I'm sorry. It's just not happening. No amount of time away or there will make me see that any differently.

My needs were expressed clearly. I told my wife that her girlfriend was too involved in our marriage and family affairs. Do you know what her response was when I tried to separate the two on my own? She was pissed off, and it caused disagreements to occur. It reached a point where I was tired of going back and forth over everything involving her girlfriend's involvement and say in our marriage and family business, and I backed off of it and let her have her way. I let those feelings go. It stopped being worth the headaches. So yes, her girlfriend's involvement was addressed before the fallout that happened last week. In therapy, she admitted that she downplayed my concerns because they didn't benefit her, and they weren't what SHE wanted to hear. I've been waiting to hear those words. In other words, my feelings didn't matter to her then. But they matter so much now, though? Please and people wonder why I feel like she can survive without me.

As far as feeling undermined, that's a new one. We started making plans last year for our child to start school later on this year. My wife didn't want them to attend school within the city. The one we clicked with the most and thought would best serve our child's needs was outside of the country. All the while, she kept her girlfriend in the loop. She said she wanted to move. At no point did she ever say otherwise to me, and we didn't force her into making that decision. It was her choice.

During the argument, Snowflake said, "Oh and by the way, I don't want to move." I stopped for a second, and I found myself telling her, "Well, it really doesn't matter because you aren't part of this family any way. Life will go on without you." With that, she left. Once everything had calmed down, I asked my wife about her remark. She informed me that a few months back she had come to her and expressed hesitation about moving. Around late November this was expressed to my wife. She had never said any of that to me. My wife didn't say anything to me. Probably because she assumed she would bring it up, or she blew it off because it wasn't what she wanted to hear. My wife's response was the killer. "We need to reconsider and possibly find somewhere here because Kensi really doesn't want to move." Everything is at a standstill because her girlfriend doesn't want to move, so all the work and research we put in over the past year has to stop. All the years of her standing firm in her position, and it changed like the direction of the wind when that godforsaken girlfriend of hers opened her mouth a few months ago and cast a shadow of hesitation.

Our therapist asked me if it was because of the hostility between us now, and the answer is no. She was feeling this way before we had even exchanged words. That was when we were trying to get along and bond after her being around for years. I don't feel like our lives should have to stop or our daughter's education should have to be put on hold because she's hesitant. How is that supposed to make me feel? As the child's father, I don't even have a say in her education because part-time co-parent is on the fence about moving after being in the loop for a year and some change. Thus, our perceptions of family vary greatly. My wife thinks, "Well, she's part of the family, so we have to stop and consider her feelings." I think she's not, so there's a clash of opinions in motion. This is why I feel like my opinions don't matter and why I feel undermined. If she could downplay my feelings or views with the other situation, it stands to reason the same can happen this time, too.

I spent 3 1/2 hours last night trying to find a new person " awakening" thread in which that person was advised to carefully weigh such a decision in regards to its effect on the children. Didnt find one. This one seems perfect for a couple of reasons http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14062

These like many many more seem to capture the general attitude and typical response. Notice NO one me included mentions the kids or impact on kids. I have a long list if anyone wants it. All very similar.

I do remember Mags and gala stating time requirement of young children and the integration of other partners .
I did run a cross a simliar thread last night addressing that issue however the couple in question were both active poly and maybe in a quad the woman had 2 small children under 3 and pregnant with another on the way. So the situation wasn't applicable from a awakening newbie point of view.

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Different point of view does not equal confused.

Yeah I thought that might be the case which is why I asked the question on the concept of awakening. I also got the impression you might not understand the pure concept of an opposite. Whether you agree with the general overall concept or not, the mechanics of the inverse. I said "Its perfectly fine to wake up one day and want an open marriage or want a poly marriage or non monogamy ... it's excepted .... it's encouraged ....it's fucking celebrated ." Check out the links above ..... that's true.

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Me: First let me ask if you think its possible for someone to have an awakening.?

You: No, not in the sense that you're using the word. A sudden realization? Sure. A sudden realization that MUST be acted upon RIGHT NOW?? No.

I placed no time element in the use of that word. Sudden realization vs awakening isn't that a distinctions without a difference ? Also the term "awakening" is actually used by new people way more than you might think ...and agree with. So are they wrong too ?

Who's the arbiter on the correct amount of time in executing an identity?

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ME: Do you understand the premise of the reverse awakening as it applies here.?

YOU: Understand, sure. Even sympathize with (especially now after Matt's more extensive explanation, which laid out far deeper issues than just "I don't want to be poly anymore" and a more balanced outlook on the next few steps). But agree with? No. I don't care what your realization is- gay, poly, atheist, whatever (and I've been through "awakenings" on all those topics), you don't have to rush into ANYTHING. If you suddenly realize you need to stop drinking, fine, stop drinking. But something that has the potential to drastically affect, even damage your relationships, particularly with your children? Slow down and take your time. Which the OP seems to be saying he IS doing. I think some of his more emotional posts gave the impression to some of us (me included) that he was rushing into drastic action. But if that isn't the case, good, and I wish them all the best in trying to work this whole thing out.

Because you might be much less decisive than the next guy or gal aren't you judging them for being more so than you ? Or you less so them?
Slow down you might change your mind on being gay ?

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ME: #2 If a person was a serial monogamist, a cheater, etc for years (history) ...finally gets married ...commits to a traditional mono marriage.. is happy for several years ...has kids ....more years pass ... not so happy for a period of time and then he or she reads a book see's a tv show has a dream or whatever and boom it clicks I"M POLY ...I"M wiring for non monogamy.
Is that person a liar? Was he or she Lying to themselves and their spouse all that time ?

YOU: This got addressed in another thread, I believe, when Jane brought up a good example. If they really truly didn't realize because they didn't know it was an option, then I will take back any accusation of lying and they can just be mistaken about what they wanted. Being mistaken is fine, we're human. If they were avoiding introspection out of fear or because they were trying to make someone else happy/not be alone, then they were at the very least lying to themselves, and possibly lying to their partner.

I didn't see the other thread ....but my main point was the contrast on how the newbies are treated . SEE links above ...no one got called a liar. I have yet to see that as well in any of the "sudden realization" threads.

ME: #1 Yes people should consider the spouse and kids, but thinking with in the strict confines of the reverse awaking concept when does it happen in regular awaking ? I've never seen anyone suggest they should carefully weigh the effects of changing the marital dynamic on children when considering taking up a poly lifestyle with a reluctant spouse. Ive read a lot of threads never seen that. Please list the ones you've said that on.

YOU: First of all, to me that's a faulty premise and therefore not answerable since I don't agree with your concept of "awakening".

Second of all, seriously?!? I'm not going to do your homework for you. You want to know where I've said it, or GalaGirl, or anyone who deals with poly and kids, you can go look it up.

I did ....couldnt find

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If you search for pregnancy that would probably be fastest. There have been several threads where people have recommended slowing down and not opening yet when you're already dealing with adding a baby.

As explained above thats a different context. Valid and good advice but it didnt happen the same way. I perfect one for one is what I was talking about.

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From everything I've read (here and elsewhere) the general consensus is that poly is not detrimental to children as long as people are respectful, considerate, and responsible in their move to/practice of poly.

Thats actually not typically the case with the newbie laying out the confrontation with he or she's mono partner. It has been discussed but only if specifically asked ...thread topic.

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ME; #3 the word "celebrated" was used to describe how a new person is treated upon their personal awakening. The words of support to the new member. Following that internal wiring....not on the particulars of their executing their plans for their new lifestyle or the effects it had on others within their sphere.

YOU: There tends to be greater support given for those going against the norm rather than those going back to the norm. That's human nature. And this is a POLYAMORY board. Yeah, there's going to be more support for those trying to work towards poly rather than away from it. So I guess I'm not sure of your point. If you're complaining because a poly board supports people trying to be poly more than people trying to not be poly, besides "No kidding" I don't know what else to tell you.

My point was you took the word celebrate out of context and inserted it onto an action matt did to paint a false impression.

AND "NO KIDDING " .....

So... I'm arguing that there's a unfair bias or unfair treatment and you've been arguing point by point no thats not the case but then ADMIT IT ????
Thanks ... why not just admit that early and save me reading old threads ...which all prove my point.

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ME: Nothing wrong with the suggestion of taking his time and thinking it through. It seems he's being judged for his decision. He British so he's got cultural baggage surrounding repressed emotions. Why can't he have a mono identity? That seem to be belittled by those thing. Her identity must be honored ...and his can be compromised. the compromise is his ideal partnership and life for some time management. How would you do that with gay person ?

YOU: No, his identity as such was not belittled.

So the adjectives and characterizations were kind and respectful ? Liar, rash , vengeful, emotional repressed ( because he resides in the UK ) An assumption...... I got very good friend who is American who lives and works in London and has for years ...in the industry I use to work in we ended up all over the world. Sounds like he's from Australia anyway. Anyone bother to ask where he's from ?

YO matt Where are you from ?

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ME: How do you slow down on an Identity ?

ME: A person walks up and says "sorry honey I'm gay" .....how do you slow that down. How do you compromise.

YOU: You don't slow down an identity. That's ludicrous (yes, I know that's your point). But you absolutely have a choice in how quickly you ACT on that identity. I went through the first 6 years of my dating life not realizing I was bi.

Would it have helped or been kind if you were called a liar ? Come on 6 yrs....no introspection ... I dont know ???????

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Once I figured it out it was still another couple of years before I dated a girl. And it didn't kill me. I wasn't even particularly miserable.

That could sound indecisive....and just putting off the inevitable. Particularly miserable ? ...why be even slightly miserable. If you don't want to be or don't have to be. That was your choice. Matt or I might think you wasted 2 yrs of your life for nothing. Personally I would never judge you for taking your time or the opposite you wanting to start dating 3 women in a week ....or 1 women in 2 years your choice your journey.

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Same with poly. MC and I have taken baby steps for YEARS to get to this point. We've gone from "Flirting, dancing with and making out with someone else at a party is okay as long as the other isn't there" to me having a second committed sexual relationship that we're trying to turn into cohabitation. But that was over the course of 15 YEARS. No one is going to DIE if they keep their status quo for a little longer while they communicate and work out what the issues really are .

The issues are really clear. HE doesn't want to share. He wants 100% back for the 100% given ...doesn't want to live by committee. Have agreement's and plans short circuited by a third person. He wants exclusive partnership no outside influences no time balances. The CEO of romantic love should only be working for 1 company....one partnership ....100%, focused. Not 50/50. In his head it's a very important position and would like her complete focus. Unlike a part time walmart greater or the Id checker at costco

I spent 3 1/2 hours last night trying to find a new person " awakening" thread in which that person was advised to carefully weigh such a decision in regards to its effect on the children. Didnt find one. This one seems perfect for a couple of reasons http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14062

It doesn't even say they HAVE children in that one. That is a very short thread, 9 posts, and the person who started it only posted three times in it, I re-read it and could not find one instance of children being mentioned. Did it cross your mind that not everyone HAS children? I don't understand what part of your argument is supported by this thread, or why you say it's "perfect for a couple of reasons".

ditto. This thread is about a couple that has been married for 25 years and they do not mention any kids in the picture. They might not have any, or maybe they have them and they're adults now.

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These like many many more seem to capture the general attitude and typical response. Notice NO one me included mentions the kids or impact on kids. I have a long list if anyone wants it. All very similar.

Yes, and WHY WOULD THEY if there ARE no kids living with them????? What is your problem? Why are you choosing such meaningless examples to support your thesis? Is this really the best you could come up with in 3 1/2 hours of searching?

I'm not bothering to go through the rest of your message point-by-point because it's probably just more of the same WTF (and I don't have 3 1/2 hours to waste).

Would it have helped or been kind if you were called a liar ? Come on 6 yrs....no introspection ... I dont know ???????

In this specific instance it was truly a case of not knowing that bi was an option. I was actually annoyed with a couple of my close friends when I told them and their response was, "Well, DUH!" My response to them was, "Well how come nobody told me?!" I sort of knew about gay and lesbian, though I didn't personally know anyone who was openly gay. I went to high school in a very conservative, sheltered, rural area, what can I say? I knew I wasn't gay, and I didn't know bi was a possibility, so I stuck with straight. Hell, years later I mostly stick with straight. I find women sexy as hell and I'm open to a relationship with a woman, but for some reason for me relationships with guys tend to work better in the long run, and it's not like I personally NEED a relationship with a woman to be happy/content. But that's just me. *shrug*

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That could sound indecisive....and just putting off the inevitable. Particularly miserable ? ...why be even slightly miserable.

It was college. Of course I was going to be miserable now and again! I mean, once I realized bi was an option and the light went on, I definitely kept an eye out. But there was a LOT of "new" in college for me, and I don't see anything wrong with taking time to sort out what I did and didn't want. I'm not of the opinion that you have to personally experiment with a bunch of different things to find out what doesn't work for you. That's around the same time that I figured out that I wasn't going to put up with jealous behavior either. I may not have known the word "poly", but I knew I wasn't going to stay in a relationship where someone treated me like an object or possession or thought they had the right to tell me what to do. And considering I met MC in college and we're still together 15+ years later, no, I certainly don't consider any of that time I spent figuring things out wasted!

I know what it means. She exists, but she doesn't mean anything to me. I'm not putting a title on that. It's a nonexistent relationship, acquaintance deal, or even friendship. It's nothing. She's just the other person. This isn't a Vee because I'm not even treating it like one, so metamour doesn't feel like it fits. She's not part of my family. I'm sorry. It's just not happening. No amount of time away or there will make me see that any differently.

I can accept that. "Metamour" is a label. I don't like labels to begin with, and I especially don't like them when people force them down someone else's throat.

I don't like the word either. It doesn't even make sense. "Meta" means "about." Your "about-lover?" wtf.

And Matt has a point. As we use it, "metamour" describes a type of relationship. Having a relationship requires two people to interact in some way. If Matt is refusing any and all interaction with Snowflake, then they do not have a relationship. Kevin Bacon has taught us that every person is "related" to every other person in some way, that doesn't mean Kevin Bacon and I "have a relationship."

SC , i'm surprised at you. Don't you have a degree in chemistry? Ortho- meta- para- ? Think of the configuration of "meta". Makes perfect sense!

For those of you who did not take organic chemistry or don't remember anything from it, this refers to the positioning of functional groups on a benzene ring system. There are six carbons; if groups are on adjacent carbons, the positioning is referred to as "ortho", if the groups are attached to two carbons with a "empty" carbon between them, it is referred to as "meta" and if they are positioned diametrically across from each other it is then called "para".

In the case of a poly V, the carbon without the functional group on it is like the point of the V, and the two carbons on either side of it bearing the functional groups "meta" to each other are like the two significant-others of the V.

I don't like the word either. It doesn't even make sense. "Meta" means "about." Your "about-lover?" wtf.

The prefix meta- has several meanings. I usually think of it as "beyond" or something like "all encompassing," as in metaphysics, metamathematics, metalinguistics, metagalaxy, etc.

But it also means "between" or "behind," "next to," "alongside," or "together with" as in as in metacarpal, metatarsal, and metadata, OR "change" as in metamorphosis, metabolism, metastasis, and metaphor.

It is only recently that the prefix has sort of evolved to mean not "about," but really "about itself," as when a word describes something that is self-referential, like metacognition, the act of thinking about how we think, and meta-learning, when we learn about learning.

It's a pretty flexible prefix and it seems that, linguistically, it has been used in a number of different word trends through the years.

I think the word "metamour" is perfectly appropriate because it refers to someone who is alongside, or next to, a loved one. It could even mean "beyond" here. Whenever I fantasize about having a metamour, in my mind I picture my fantasy lover next to me and the metamour standing on the other side of him, just beyond him. Metamours are sort of like satellites or moons orbiting a celestial body, so they do have a kind of relationship to each other, in that they have one person in common that they both love.