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Sleep routines and nursing baby to sleep

My daughter is just over 5 months and for her night sleeps my husband and I
have been bathing her and then nursing her to sleep (she's exclusively
breastfed and won't take the bottle). Up
until a few weeks ago she was waking once for a nightfeed and sleeping 10 to
11 hours all up (I was quite happy with this). However, the past few weeks
she has started to wake 2 or 3
times a night and I know she isn't hungry - just looking for a 'comfort
suck'. She hasn't really taken to solids and the nurse said it's probably
because she's getting extra at night, even though she's only comfort sucking
and not having a full feed, and that I should let her cry/sleep train her.
Incidentally she hasn't increased her number of day feeds, and generally
feeds every 3 to 4 hours, sometimes going 5 hours without wanting a feed
(usually around the middle of the day).

Last night we had a hell of a night, my baby went down at 7.30, woke at
10.30 for a
feed, then 12.30 and then 2am - I knew she wasn't hungry at 2am and my
husband and I went through 2 hours of hell starting 'controlled crying'. I
really hate hearing her cry, but am led to believe that this is what we now
must do. I'm wondering if anyone on the newsgroup can offer
advice/tips/words of wisdom?

Also, during the day I often lie with her for her day naps and nurse her
down - usually because I'm tired and need the sleep myself! Otherwise I go
out for a walk in the pram. I've found the latter is no longer working as
her ability to fight off sleep has become very strong. Anyone got any
ideas, or am I going to have to face the music and let her cry it out (which
I've done on occasion when she's overtired and doesn't want to be
rocked/nursed).

I have the same nighttime routine that you have. My baby who is two
weeks older than yours wakes more often than yours does! Babies are
DESIGNED to wake through the night!!! They are designed to nurse
through the night.

I tried the whole controlled crying thing with my eldest daughter at about
10 months. After 5 nights, of stress and no sleep, she finally slept through
the night.. It lasted for 4 days... She didn't sleep through the night
until she was 18 months old (and had the chicken pox and the Dr prescribed a
small dose of Phenergan to help with the itching)... She now sleeps through
the night most nights... I rocked her to sleep or laid down with her till
she was about 12 months old and then just put her in the cot and walked
out.. She was breastfed till she was 6 mths old, formula didn't seem to
help her sleep either... Sorry not much help.. But I can definately
sympathise and wish you all the best..

--
Kelly
Mother of Emily 2 and Isabella 1

"Sarah Lee" wrote in message
...
My daughter is just over 5 months and for her night sleeps my husband and
I
have been bathing her and then nursing her to sleep (she's exclusively
breastfed and won't take the bottle). Up
until a few weeks ago she was waking once for a nightfeed and sleeping 10
to
11 hours all up (I was quite happy with this). However, the past few
weeks
she has started to wake 2 or 3
times a night and I know she isn't hungry - just looking for a 'comfort
suck'. She hasn't really taken to solids and the nurse said it's probably
because she's getting extra at night, even though she's only comfort
sucking
and not having a full feed, and that I should let her cry/sleep train her.
Incidentally she hasn't increased her number of day feeds, and generally
feeds every 3 to 4 hours, sometimes going 5 hours without wanting a feed
(usually around the middle of the day).

Last night we had a hell of a night, my baby went down at 7.30, woke at
10.30 for a
feed, then 12.30 and then 2am - I knew she wasn't hungry at 2am and my
husband and I went through 2 hours of hell starting 'controlled crying'.
I
really hate hearing her cry, but am led to believe that this is what we
now
must do. I'm wondering if anyone on the newsgroup can offer
advice/tips/words of wisdom?

Also, during the day I often lie with her for her day naps and nurse her
down - usually because I'm tired and need the sleep myself! Otherwise I
go
out for a walk in the pram. I've found the latter is no longer working as
her ability to fight off sleep has become very strong. Anyone got any
ideas, or am I going to have to face the music and let her cry it out
(which
I've done on occasion when she's overtired and doesn't want to be
rocked/nursed).

Sarah Lee" wrote in message
...
My daughter is just over 5 months and for her night sleeps my husband and
I
have been bathing her and then nursing her to sleep (she's exclusively
breastfed and won't take the bottle). Up
until a few weeks ago she was waking once for a nightfeed and sleeping 10
to
11 hours all up (I was quite happy with this). However, the past few
weeks
she has started to wake 2 or 3
times a night and I know she isn't hungry - just looking for a 'comfort
suck'. She hasn't really taken to solids and the nurse said it's probably
because she's getting extra at night, even though she's only comfort
sucking
and not having a full feed, and that I should let her cry/sleep train her.
Incidentally she hasn't increased her number of day feeds, and generally
feeds every 3 to 4 hours, sometimes going 5 hours without wanting a feed
(usually around the middle of the day).

Last night we had a hell of a night, my baby went down at 7.30, woke at
10.30 for a
feed, then 12.30 and then 2am - I knew she wasn't hungry at 2am and my
husband and I went through 2 hours of hell starting 'controlled crying'.
I
really hate hearing her cry, but am led to believe that this is what we
now
must do. I'm wondering if anyone on the newsgroup can offer
advice/tips/words of wisdom?

Also, during the day I often lie with her for her day naps and nurse her
down - usually because I'm tired and need the sleep myself! Otherwise I
go
out for a walk in the pram. I've found the latter is no longer working as
her ability to fight off sleep has become very strong. Anyone got any
ideas, or am I going to have to face the music and let her cry it out
(which
I've done on occasion when she's overtired and doesn't want to be
rocked/nursed).

Many babies I have heard of start to wake around 5 mos even if they didn't
do so earlier. She's just doing like the rest of the gang.

... However, the past few weeks
she has started to wake 2 or 3
times a night and I know she isn't hungry - just looking for a 'comfort
suck'. She hasn't really taken to solids and the nurse said it's probably
because she's getting extra at night, even though she's only comfort
sucking
and not having a full feed, and that I should let her cry/sleep train her.
Incidentally she hasn't increased her number of day feeds, and generally
feeds every 3 to 4 hours, sometimes going 5 hours without wanting a feed
(usually around the middle of the day).

Last night we had a hell of a night, my baby went down at 7.30, woke at
10.30 for a
feed, then 12.30 and then 2am - I knew she wasn't hungry at 2am and my
husband and I went through 2 hours of hell starting 'controlled crying'.
I
really hate hearing her cry, but am led to believe that this is what we
now
must do. I'm wondering if anyone on the newsgroup can offer
advice/tips/words of wisdom?

I'm not clear on how you know she's not hungry at all (or even a tiny bit
peckish)? Is it the way she nurses (or doesn't nurse?) If it is solely for
comfort, is this a problem (because you have to get up in the morning and
your sleep is vital to your work performance), or is it okay for you to
accept that she nurses because she needs that kind of comfort (because of
discomfort, teething, developmental growth spurt)?

Some babies don't "take to solids" until they are much older - even as old
as 18 months, and certainly 8-10 months is common. I wouldn't rush to lay
the blame on the extra at night, myself. I have a daughter only a couple
weeks younger than yours, and I won't even begin offering solids until she's
6 months - if then - unless she shows an undeniable interest in them. Solids
tend to have fewer calories and less balanced nutrition in the same volume
as breastmilk, *and* solids take longer to digest. I don't know what kind of
solids she's being offered, but if she's not taking to them yet, there's no
reason to push them. At her age she's better getting formula than solids
(yes, I know you said she won't take a bottle, but the nutritional issue
remains).
Also, during the day I often lie with her for her day naps and nurse her
down - usually because I'm tired and need the sleep myself! Otherwise I
go
out for a walk in the pram. I've found the latter is no longer working as
her ability to fight off sleep has become very strong. Anyone got any
ideas, or am I going to have to face the music and let her cry it out
(which
I've done on occasion when she's overtired and doesn't want to be
rocked/nursed).

I am no proponent of leaving a baby to "cry it out". I've no objection to
leaving my daughter to fuss to sleep, which she often does, because she gets
*more* upset if I try to hold her until she falls asleep. Yet, if I take her
up and lay her in bed, she'll cry fitfully and then just conk out. To me,
that is not "crying it out". That is meeting her needs - if I insist on
holding her, it just upsets her more. And I can't just vanish into the
bedroom and lie down with her (barring a hysterical breakdown on her part)
because my other 3 kids need supervision.

But if you hear baby in bed, getting *more* upset, instead of less - if her
voice takes on that edge of hysteria, you know the sound - at that point, I
can't see the value of leaving baby or offering anything less than complete
comforting to the point of calmness. I wouldn't leave an adult or an older
child to cry themselves to sleep that way, and I won't leave a baby. So
obviously I've had to come up with other strategies! Mine basically consist
of: if the baby wants to nurse at night, we nurse at night. I tend to fall
back asleep during these nursings, as the babe is in bed with us and I just
roll over and offer her the breast. I don't see it as a problem, so for us,
it isn't a problem. In fact, I *want* my daughter to make up any calories
she missed during the day, especially as she gets more interested in doing
all the new skills she's developing, and forgets to eat (she often goes as
long as 6 hours at a stretch between nursings in the middle of the day, like
yours). So even though it means broken sleep for me, I know she's getting
all the calories she needs. I also know it's not forever. By the way, we
also found that when baby cried and cried like that, even when obviously
tired, there was *always* something else wrong. Always. Either baby was wet,
or dirty, or hurting for some reason, or had become hungry during the time
she was crying, or had been crying so long that she forgot why she started
in the first place, and was now crying because she was crying, and was
incapable of self-soothing by that point.

If you suspect teething discomfort, or any other discomfort during the night
(even a mild earache, ignored by the baby during the interesting day, can
become intolerable during the quiet night), you might want to try
paracetamol/tylenol and see if it helps with the night waking. We find
teething-times to be times of much night waking. (Also growth spurts in
older kids, with the growing pains in the legs.) I suspect my littlie of
teething now. She's been waking multiple times a night, or not waking but
crying out repeatedly until soothed with the breast. I don't know what it
is, but as long as the breast soothes her, I won't resort to pain-killers
(and she still spits out the homeopathic teething tablets).

I do not believe at all that sleep training is your only option. For *me*,
it isn't an option at all, or not with a baby so tiny, so other options must
exist. I realise your nurse is making these recommendations, but ask
yourself: for whose benefit are these recommendations being made? Are they
for baby's benefit? Mom's? Nurse's? Is it to fit into cultural expectations?
Do they consider the child as an individual? Do they consider the child's
developmental stage, nutritional needs? How necessary is it for her to meet
your expectations regarding sleep and solids intake at this stage of her
life? (For some families, it is vitally important; for others, not at all -
only you can assess your own family's needs).

I can tell you that my oldest daughter slept through beautifully from 8
weeks until 7 months, and then began waking (with teething) once a night,
then twice, then three times....but eventually, it reduced down again and at
the age of 2 she was sleeping through fine. One of my twins slept through
from the time she came home from the hospital (at 3 months) but she was
getting NG tube feedings all night, no need to wake hungry. The other twin
didn't sleep through until she was older than 2. Not once. I survived. I was
horribly ragged for a while, but I survived. This newest of mine (born July
29) wakes several times at night, or cries and nurses rather, but I'm
getting enough sleep, so it works. Every kid has been different, and I've
learned not to have expectations, but rather to go with the child's
individual sleep patterns. I know from experience that they'll settle
down...eventually. (Though the twin who used to sleep through the night, now
wakes 1-3X per night to go to the bathroom, poor kid, and often requires one
of us to get up with her - but her situation is unique.)

Now of course I've rambled on. To sum up: If she isn't taking to solids, she
may not be ready for them yet; this is certainly within the range of normal
given her age - I would put her on the 'young for solids' end of the
readiness spectrum. She may be making up lost calories at night, because of
developmental spurts that distract her from eating in the day. She may have
discomfort of some sort that's causing her to seek comfort - denying the
breast will not address this; however, the breast itself may not address it
either. Letting baby fuss to sleep may be the best way to meet her needs,
but "crying it out" may be chosen for cultural reasons, resulting in a real
need being ignored. A baby who cries and won't sleep when you know she
would ordinarily be sleeping needs some troubleshooting: diaper, check. Too
hot/too cold, check. Can't self-soothe, check. Wants another top-off at the
breast, check. Lonely, check. I don't know, dear. It's what I still go
through, every time, and I'm on kiddo #4 now.

So I hope some of this has been useful, or insightful, or something. If you
have any suggestions what I should do with Scootcher Moocher upstairs, who
moves across the bed like doing the backstroke - backwards and headfirst -
I'd love to hear 'em.

Hi Sarah, welcome to m.k.b I remember you from uk.p.p.p, we were due 2
days apart!

Sorry to hear things have started getting worse in the night, we've just
been going through similar where we might have 2 or 3 nights in a row
where he wakes up, the first time he wants to eat, properly, but later
wakings he just fusses (he hasn't comfort sucked for a long time). We
think it might be teething, apparently they go through phases where the
teeth are moving around in the jaw even if they aren't close to coming
through. Unfortunately there doesn't seem much you can do about it, just
go with it and comfort them. Thankfully we've just had 2 nights where hs
has slept through after a bad weekend where he was up for an hour or more
at a time.

One thing we just did which I wish we'd done sooner was put a cot toy on
the bars of the cot (we were passed one one by a friend who was clearing
out), it's a big yellow plastic teddy with activities on it. Last night at
bed time we put him down and left the room, we could hear these taps as he
played with it (in the dark), this was the first sound we heard this
morning as well.

For naps, my solution is when he is tired, I make sure he is well fed,
then changed his nappy, put him down, close the curtains whilst talking to
him, telling him to sleep well etc. then I leave the room and set a timer
for 15 minutes, first thing I do is put some washing or drying on so I
can't hear him (sounds cruel, but it seems to work for us and it's less
than 1 time in 10 he is actually screaming), then I dash around for 15
mins doing anything that needs to be done and at the end of that time I
check on him at least 9 times out of 10 he is fast asleep, then I take
some me time, make a cup of tea, put my feet up etc.

I have four children and never have had one sleeping through the night by five
months!

Your baby may BE hungry; how can you know? Grown-ups sometimes wake in the
middle of the night and need a snack. If your baby needs a little snack, she's
depending on you to give it to her. :-) Perhaps she's going through a growth
spurt and needs more calories. Or maybe she's so busy during the day that she
isn't eating as much as she should. Or maybe she does just want to nurse for
comfort--and what's wrong with that if she does? She's still a very young baby
and is depending on you to meet all her needs, physical and emotional.

Have you considered co-sleeping? It can make all the difference. You can
nurse in your sleep (well, I can, and others have said they can--you'll have to
try and see how it works for you) and then you will be rested and baby will get
what she needs as well. I can honestly say that I have never felt sleep
deprived as long as my babies were sharing my bed.

I still nurse my almost three-year-old to sleep. And he still wakes at some
point and comes into bed with me to nurse some more. As your baby gets older,
if you are not comfortable with nursing in the night, there is a book that a
lot of people on this ng recommend: The No-Cry Sleep Solution.

It sounds to me like you are really concerned about your baby and doing what is
best for her. So trust your own instincts, even above what any nurse tells
you. There is a reason that you hate to hear your baby cry. You don't have to
make her do it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with nursing a
five-month-old to sleep.

(And I do understand the pressures--I did controlled crying with my first at 7
months. It was awful. Yes, it worked--at least for awhile--but I would never
do it again.)

"Sarah Lee" wrote in message
...
My daughter is just over 5 months and for her night sleeps my husband and
I
have been bathing her and then nursing her to sleep (she's exclusively
breastfed and won't take the bottle). Up
until a few weeks ago she was waking once for a nightfeed and sleeping 10
to
11 hours all up (I was quite happy with this). However, the past few
weeks
she has started to wake 2 or 3
times a night and I know she isn't hungry - just looking for a 'comfort
suck'. She hasn't really taken to solids and the nurse said it's probably
because she's getting extra at night, even though she's only comfort
sucking
and not having a full feed, and that I should let her cry/sleep train her.
Incidentally she hasn't increased her number of day feeds, and generally
feeds every 3 to 4 hours, sometimes going 5 hours without wanting a feed
(usually around the middle of the day).

Last night we had a hell of a night, my baby went down at 7.30, woke at
10.30 for a
feed, then 12.30 and then 2am - I knew she wasn't hungry at 2am and my
husband and I went through 2 hours of hell starting 'controlled crying'.
I
really hate hearing her cry, but am led to believe that this is what we
now
must do. I'm wondering if anyone on the newsgroup can offer
advice/tips/words of wisdom?

Also, during the day I often lie with her for her day naps and nurse her
down - usually because I'm tired and need the sleep myself! Otherwise I
go
out for a walk in the pram. I've found the latter is no longer working as
her ability to fight off sleep has become very strong. Anyone got any
ideas, or am I going to have to face the music and let her cry it out
(which
I've done on occasion when she's overtired and doesn't want to be
rocked/nursed).

Any advice very much appreciated.

Sarah & Charlotte (born 28 June)

M y only advice is to let her sleep with you. You sleep and nurse her during
the day, she probably misses it at night.

"Sarah Lee" wrote in message
...
She hasn't really taken to solids and the nurse said it's probably
because she's getting extra at night, even though she's only comfort
sucking
and not having a full feed, and that I should let her cry/sleep train her.

IME, I've found this to be total hogwash. My DD (almost 13 months now) also
took a long time to take to solids (and still is not as keen as many others
her age). Various people told me it was because I was nursing her at night
and that she should cut down.

I tried to eliminate night-nursings and had DH rock her to sleep instead.
She would wake up even more than ever, which resulted in all of us being
tired and crabby in the day. Tired and crabby = no patience for solids. So
it only exacerbated the problem.

"Sarah Lee" wrote in message
...
My daughter is just over 5 months and for her night sleeps my husband and
I
have been bathing her and then nursing her to sleep (she's exclusively
breastfed and won't take the bottle). Up
until a few weeks ago she was waking once for a nightfeed and sleeping 10
to
11 hours all up (I was quite happy with this). However, the past few
weeks
she has started to wake 2 or 3
times a night and I know she isn't hungry - just looking for a 'comfort
suck'. She hasn't really taken to solids and the nurse said it's probably
because she's getting extra at night, even though she's only comfort
sucking
and not having a full feed, and that I should let her cry/sleep train her.
Incidentally she hasn't increased her number of day feeds, and generally
feeds every 3 to 4 hours, sometimes going 5 hours without wanting a feed
(usually around the middle of the day).

Last night we had a hell of a night, my baby went down at 7.30, woke at
10.30 for a
feed, then 12.30 and then 2am - I knew she wasn't hungry at 2am and my
husband and I went through 2 hours of hell starting 'controlled crying'.
I
really hate hearing her cry, but am led to believe that this is what we
now
must do. I'm wondering if anyone on the newsgroup can offer
advice/tips/words of wisdom?

Google "Ferber" and "No Cry Sleep Solution" If you ARE going to try
"controlled crying" (don't know where that term comes from) read the book by
Ferber called Solve Your Child's Sleep Problem. It is truly worth the trip
to the library.
Also, during the day I often lie with her for her day naps and nurse her
down - usually because I'm tired and need the sleep myself! Otherwise I
go
out for a walk in the pram. I've found the latter is no longer working as
her ability to fight off sleep has become very strong. Anyone got any
ideas, or am I going to have to face the music and let her cry it out
(which
I've done on occasion when she's overtired and doesn't want to be
rocked/nursed).

I would not do it "on occaision." That is setting an inmanagable
expectation. Ferber's book is good on the subject if what your child is
experiencing is an untenable sleep association. Others recommend No Cry
Sleep Solution as a good resource.
Any advice very much appreciated.