(15-01-2014 04:15 PM)Cathym112 Wrote: OK. so my take away here is that the LDS believes he was wrongly convicted, or that somehow history is wrong?

No, msot LDS have never heard of it, but those that have are generally aware that he was in reality never convicted of anything, and that the notion that he was is a misinterpretation of the historical data.

(15-01-2014 04:15 PM)Cathym112 Wrote: Since I live in NY, I have personally gone to Wayne County and looked up the records. Whether or not you minimize what he has done, or if you believe that the charges were bogus, the fact of the matter is that he was, in fact, convicted of fraud by a trial of his peers.

I don't appreciate being made to address this argument all over again after telling you I didn't want to, but no, he was not, in fact, convicted of fraud by a trial of his peers. The court record addressing Smith's case that is so blithely touted by careless critics records the following at the very end, which is what convinces people of his conviction:

The problem is that these exact charges are well enough known from contemporary justice manuals, and they align with actions taken during a pre-trial "examination," or hearing, not a full trial. We happen to have the bills of Justices Neely, Bigelow, and Humphrey from this day, and this case is absent from the bills of Bigelow and Humphrey, which is problematic for your assumption because they would both have had to have been present there to render judgment were this a Court of Special Sessions, which it would have had to have been for Smith to be convicted without a jury outside of the Court of General Sessions, which only convened there in February, June, and October (not March 20, the date of the court record). In short, what the court document shows is a pre-trial hearing that determined there was enough evidence to go to trial at the next Court of General Sessions. The "Court find the Defendant guilty" terminology was not uncommon back then for such "examinations," despite how much presentistic readers might think it can only refer to an actual final conviction by a trial of the accused's peers. No such case ever came up at the Court of General Sessions, though, indicating Smith was given leg bail, which was not particularly uncommon for young first-time offenders during that time period.

(14-01-2014 11:35 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote: 1. You will be openly encouraged to avoid and reject those who do not hold identical or even similar values to yours. You will be taught to judge and demonize those who engage in any religiously forbidden practice, such as drinking or smoking.

2. You will be encouraged to replace your previous friends, neighbors, etc.. with Mormon versions. Family members not of your faith are now not to be considered as trustworthy or good as the average member. You will be taught to distrust reading material, media, or any other possible source of information, if it conflicts with the church in any way.

3. Your time will be endlessly taken up engaged in church activities of all kinds, even to the point of utter exhaustion. No day will pass without a church related responsibility or demand. Your family will join you in this conscription, even when your children are very small.

4. You will never be "worthy" or "good enough" in any genuine sense. You will always be striving for some church related privilege, while simultaneously suffering punishment for your supposed "unworthiness". You will experience the exhaustion and misery of being an emotional "hamster on the wheel".

5. You will never have any privacy, even in your own mind. The church demands that you confess any and all "sins" verbally to your local bishop. These crimes include thought crimes, such as thinking "impure" sexual thoughts.

6. You will never think for yourself again. Any and all issues can be resolved by consulting the church. They will provide you with what you are "supposed" to believe whenever you happen to need that information. The church is always a higher priority than you are.

7. You will pay 10% of all the money you make for the rest of your life, or you will not be considered "worthy" before god. You will be punished and your membership and participation will be restricted until you pay up. You have no authority to claim that this is unreasonable, since you would be rebelling against "Almighty God".

8. You will surrender your right to be sexual being. You will be demonized and shamed as a perverse and disgusting creature for your innate sexual desires. You will be simultaneously told that sex is wonderful and godly, making your natural desire to profane it all the worse. You will be surrendering the ability to decide what goes on in your bedroom, literally. Any and all sexual practices other than heterosexual vaginal intercourse are considered immoral and are forbidden. You will surrender your freedom to have sex at all if you are unmarried, including masturbation. Use of pornography is forbidden and will be considered an addiction, regardless of how often you use it. You will never be entirely free of the stigma within the church if you are caught viewing it.

9. You will be required to give testimony of the principles of the church, before you have tested them or even learned all of them. You will become comfortable with the idea that the church owes you nothing, and will only give you all the doctrine on a provisional basis. Your "worthiness" and hard work earn you the right to actually learn the doctrine you have already been required to embrace. You will sign on a dotted line without being told everything up front.

10. You will be taught an openly censored version of the history of Mormonism. Some information will be changed, erased, or entirely omitted. If you discover these tampered parts of the history on your own, you will be openly stonewalled and even punished severely for trying to do anything with that information. Your membership and associated benefits are only available to you if you remain in line at all times.

11. You will be required to indoctrinate your children from the absolute earliest moments of their lives. Even as young as under a year they will be taught in "Nursery", a church program designed to use food and cartoons to teach them Mormon doctrine. I do NOT exaggerate in any way when I say that mere infants attend these meetings, without their parent's supervision, since they are required to attend other classes elsewhere. They do so until they gain enough speech ability to go to another class. They will attend this program for an hour every Sunday, every single week. That is only the beginning. They will not have a chance to choose their own values, not until adulthood has set in, and their entire life is made up of Mormon experience.

12. If you are a woman, you will be treated as unequal and less important than a man. You will be denied possession of priesthood authority. You will be unable to fill the majority of church positions. You will be given standards of dress that the Amish would most surely approve of. You will be taught that your body is a temptation for men, and it is your responsibility to keep them strong by covering it up, and dulling your own sexual nature. You will be taught that your main, and ideally only, purpose is to bear and raise children "in the faith". Motherhood is given practically holy status congruent with that of the famous "Virgin Mary". Young women are discouraged from seeking out an education or career. Instead, they are encouraged to marry and have children while still very young. Even when on occasion, women are encouraged to achieve an education, it is openly stated that this should only be a "back up plan" in case her husband is made unable to work at some point in the future. Your importance as a woman in the church is expressed only in terms of "support" for your husband, along with the church in general. Your diminished position will not ever be reconsidered, not even if you have no husband to represent you or provide priesthood authority in your home. Let single mother's beware, the only thing Mormonism has to offer them is more work to do, and 10% less income for them and their children.

Basically, slam your door when the Mormons come calling. Don't listen for even a moment.

false, everything is false.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED

(15-01-2014 04:33 PM)maklelan Wrote: No, msot LDS have never heard of it, but those that have are generally aware that he was in reality never convicted of anything, and that the notion that he was is a misinterpretation of the historical data.

(15-01-2014 04:33 PM)maklelan Wrote: No, msot LDS have never heard of it, but those that have are generally aware that he was in reality never convicted of anything, and that the notion that he was is a misinterpretation of the historical data.

So most people have never heard of the history of the founder of their religion? I guess thats like Catholics not actually reading the bible. Ignorance by choice is not anything to be proud of.

(15-01-2014 04:33 PM)maklelan Wrote: I don't appreciate being made to address this argument all over again after telling you I didn't want to, but no, he was not, in fact, convicted of fraud by a trial of his peers. The court record addressing Smith's case that is so blithely touted by careless critics records the following at the very end, which is what convinces people of his conviction:

I don't appreciate your tone. If you don't want to answer the question, then don't answer it. No need for the pitiful condescension towards me. Since I have not shown you any malice or ill intent, I would appreciate the same consideration, especially since I'm just asking honest questions. You will get a lot farther with people if you treat them as your intellectual peers....

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson

(15-01-2014 05:34 PM)Cathym112 Wrote: So most people have never heard of the history of the founder of their religion? I guess thats like Catholics not actually reading the bible. Ignorance by choice is not anything to be proud of.

Most of the LDS know the history of the Prophet. They don't know all the details and facts. Nobody can know everything.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED

(15-01-2014 05:34 PM)Cathym112 Wrote: I don't appreciate your tone. If you don't want to answer the question, then don't answer it. No need for the pitiful condescension towards me.

Don't bother buddy he's a certified condescending prick.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidenceWishful thinking is not evidenceDisproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidenceLogical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidenceVague prophecies is not evidenceData that requires a certain belief is not evidence

(15-01-2014 05:34 PM)Cathym112 Wrote: So most people have never heard of the history of the founder of their religion? I guess thats like Catholics not actually reading the bible. Ignorance by choice is not anything to be proud of.

Most of the LDS know the history of the Prophet. They don't know all the details and facts. Nobody can know everything.

That seems to be some rather basic knowledge. Thats like not knowing who the first pope was if you are a catholic. "Nobody can know everything" is still an ignorance by choice. And its a ludicrous statement...

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson