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Your going to have to explain to me how an opening about a girl who's opening up again and becoming more optimistic after going through tough times is considered ''emo''.

Well, ok. I hear a female voice trying too hard to cute and ultimately sounds whiny. I suppose not knowing Japanese hurts.

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Generalization, and not to mention just a very strange criticism. So what if the BGM isn't there all the time?Silence is just as important as any track in an episode. Otherwise it would sound like a Hanna-Barbera cartoon.

Well, of course it's a generalization, lol. It's an overall impression of the whole series. And I've noticed that there's a very low amount of BGM.

You are correct that silence is useful and you don't need it all the time. I'm just saying it's not used very much, and the BGMs that do show up are almost always the same, making it extremely bland.

They say a good background music isn't going to come up to the forefront and distract people. But it needs to be there, somewhere.

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You need to pay more attention to the audio usage in anime then. :/

And if I'm not paying attention, whose fault is it? It's their job to get my attention. I can pick any random anime from, I don't know, say my top 30 anime where I paid attention to the audio usage. I don't think that's the problem. Do I happen to only watch shows with good soundtracks? *shrugs*

See, this is not a complaint I usually use for the majority of anime. I'm generally not very critical of these things unless I don't feel it's there.

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And I think your convincing yourself that the weaker episodes have less music, when in fact they at best have the same or more than the usual.YnS had the good fortunate of a great OST and excellent music placement. That's why it's better than Hanasaku in that area, because it is a better OST with a better usage. That doesn't mean anything less would be shit, since the music in YnS is at such a high standard.

Music placement is everything though; I don't care about the tunes by themselves. Umineko anime had great songs but they weren't always used right.

Well, how about less memorable music? I'm actually watching an episode (what was it? The end of the Einshi arc where it became really notable.

I hated .hack sign, but I'll be damned if I said the music there wasn't anything short of awesome. So I'm not going out of my way to make this criticism; I certainly liked watching HSI enough to not make unwarranted criticism of it, nor would I bother trying to convince myself this show is bad or anything.

It started in episode 3. Yes, I know it's one of the weaker ones, but most notably during the car chase scene. Now, people can go on about how crap that episode was, but it could have at least been humorous. But the BGM didn't help at all. That's an example of a missed opportunity to set the mood.

And yes, I know that YnS is a pretty high standard, but I'm just using that as an example of it done right. Otherwise I'm just comparing to thin air, and nobody wants that. Didn't I already say that before?

I'm not saying "It's not as good as Yosuga no Sora, it's shit". I'm saying it could be more like in that vein to be considered good.

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To me, the greatest difference between Hanasaku and True Tears is that there is a clear planing problem in Hanasaku (which I think lies squarely in the hands of Ms.Whimsical) not on the atmosphere, and certainly not the music. There hadn't been an instance where I thought that the lead up from the silence to the music, the volume, their actual usage, or the quality of the tracks used.

Maybe you don't like the sort of atmosphere that the show sets up, or you think it can be done better, but what you say about the lack of music is simply untrue.

Well, tell me then. What kind of atmosphere does Hana Saku Iroha set up? Because I have nothing.

True Tears, at least I could feel the emotional tension between the characters. It set itself up as a dramatic romantic drama. It's not the most complex of things, but hey I could watch it and be like hey I'm on the stage of this show.

TT doesn't have the most awesome soundtrack either. But it works. Noe's theme? A character defining song that outlines her personality perfectly. Sono Mama no Boku de? One of the most appropriate inserts to sum the mood? Hey, I remember these things existed and the scenes associated with them. That is what works. That is quality use of sound.

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They say a good background music isn't going to come up to the forefront and distract people. But it needs to be there, somewhere.

That's dependent on the strength of score itself though. A more noticeable and better composed track is going to attract your attention, but a more low key one isn't.

The music is there, but since it doesn't attract attention to itself, it goes by unnoticed unless you pay attention to it.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

And if I'm not paying attention, whose fault is it? It's their job to get my attention. I can pick any random anime from, I don't know, say my top 30 anime where I paid attention to the audio usage. I don't think that's the problem. Do I happen to only watch shows with good soundtracks? *shrugs*

Your going to have to give me some examples here.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

See, this is not a complaint I usually use for the majority of anime. I'm generally not very critical of these things unless I don't feel it's there.

Fair enough, though gut feelings can turn out to be just that.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Music placement is everything though;

I disagree. Music placement is only a significant part of the process. Everything is centered around the actual OST.

Let me give you an example, The World God Only Knows anime. It has a fantastic OST, and the audio management is pretty fitting (though it improves by the second season, finally reaches a high point by the mid way point) but no matter how well it's used, the fact that there isn't a single track that can be described as comedic in nature cripples the show, to the point where there are comedy sketches with no BGM at all, in between dramatic scenes filled with different BGM.

The usage is important (e.g. Blood-C has some pretty great usage of it's BGM, while Fractale has some of the most hideous music placement I've heard all year long, and both had great OST) but unless the OST itself is well made (and fitting for the show) then it wont matter how well it's used.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I don't care about the tunes by themselves. Umineko anime had great songs but they weren't always used right.

The Umineko Anime only used a single track throughout the show tho

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, how about less memorable music? I'm actually watching an episode (what was it? The end of the Einshi arc where it became really notable.

I'm not inclined to set through Einshi's story arc for a second time, but I noted while watching that ''even the audio manager sounded like he wanted to go home'' which was the only time I ever had that sort of criticism towards the show previous episodes so ...

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I hated .hack sign, but I'll be damned if I said the music there wasn't anything short of awesome. So I'm not going out of my way to make this criticism; I certainly liked watching HSI enough to not make unwarranted criticism of it, nor would I bother trying to convince myself this show is bad or anything.

It started in episode 3. Yes, I know it's one of the weaker ones, but most notably during the car chase scene. Now, people can go on about how crap that episode was, but it could have at least been humorous. But the BGM didn't help at all. That's an example of a missed opportunity to set the mood.

We are starting to venture into a different topic here, so I'll try and not go off on a tangent.

When I said that you were trying to convince yourself that the ''filler'' episodes had less music, I wasn't saying that you were actively to go out of your way to make it seem like there were faults with the show on more technical levels, but that your dislike for these episodes made them seem like they had lower amount of music in them.

Now maybe you don't like the actual tracks used during episode 3, since it was more humorous than usual. The episode itself was more humorous than the past two episodes, I'll admit. I thought it was fitting usage of the score and helped to highlight how lighthearted the episode was, but you thought that it could've been more toned down so not to appear as being too comedic. I don't agree with that since I think that the BGM should match the tone of the scenes, but I still think that's a fair critique. I disagree that it ruined the mood since I think it fit perfectly with the mood of the episode, but I'll agree it did not fit with the tone the series gave off in the past two episodes.

Does that mean it's the fault of the BGM? In my eyes, no.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

And yes, I know that YnS is a pretty high standard, but I'm just using that as an example of it done right. Otherwise I'm just comparing to thin air, and nobody wants that. Didn't I already say that before?

I'm not saying "It's not as good as Yosuga no Sora, it's shit". I'm saying it could be more like in that vein to be considered good.

Alright, that was poor usage on my part. My mistake. But I personally rate OST's from a wide range between ''Excellent'' and ''Horrible'', so for me ''good'' comes as being well above average with lot's of recognizable tones and pieces, where I'd place the HSI music now, while YnS is at ''great'', which means that it's all around memorable and at best emotion invoking, hence why I thought it was unfair to compare them.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, tell me then. What kind of atmosphere does Hana Saku Iroha set up? Because I have nothing.

A very upbeat one. There is dramatic and comedic spikes, but it maintains a very ongoing and positive tone throughout.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

True Tears, at least I could feel the emotional tension between the characters. It set itself up as a dramatic romantic drama. It's not the most complex of things, but hey I could watch it and be like hey I'm on the stage of this show.

TT doesn't have the most awesome soundtrack either. But it works. Noe's theme? A character defining song that outlines her personality perfectly. Sono Mama no Boku de? One of the most appropriate inserts to sum the mood? Hey, I remember these things existed and the scenes associated with them. That is what works. That is quality use of sound.

It could be because those scenes struck a chord with you, and thus thanks to their effective usage of the music during those scenes, you managed to connect and remember them more.

That, and Hanasaku doesn't have scenes of the same magnitude and effect on the viewer as True Tears had. It certainly tries, but what it does well is when it doesn't go big with the climax of it's arcs (since it's not really all that suited to have such things).

TT doesn't have the most awesome soundtrack either. But it works. Noe's theme? A character defining song that outlines her personality perfectly. Sono Mama no Boku de? One of the most appropriate inserts to sum the mood? Hey, I remember these things existed and the scenes associated with them. That is what works. That is quality use of sound.

Personally I thought the score for True Tears was very good, I thought Hajime Kikuchi did a pretty damn good job, especially considering he has just been the composer for "eufonius" for the most part. I would even go as far as to say it's the soundtrack of the year.... but I realize this doesn't have as much "stand alone" appeal as others.

I thought he did a really good job of conveying emotion throughout his music, which you really don't see that much these days. To me when I hear the True Tears tracks I have images of the series pop up in my head, it has the emotional attachment, it's like listening to a good jrpg music score.

Since you guy's sort of have the same comment about Okada (you certainly hold her at a much higher regard than I do)

There's something that I think needs to be said (or, rather, asked) here.

And that is: If not Okada, then who?

Anime originals are thankfully on the rise lately, but they're still very much the exception and not the rule.

A fair number of recent anime originals were wrote by Okada: Anohana, Hanasaku Iroha, and True Tears (possibly amongst others).

None of these three anime shows are perfect (no, not even True Tears), but they're all at least generally competent, shall we say. They've also been very well-received, and I've also enjoyed them a lot. True Tears, in particular, I count amongst my all-time favorites.

Moreso than any love for Okada, this is why I'm considerably skeptical of your earlier stated sentiment of wanting PA Works to get rid of Okada.

What proven anime original writer would you like to see take her place? Because I certainly don't want to see P.A. Works cease to make anime originals - The fact they do a fair number, and do them at least with general competence, is what I find so distinctively valuable about P.A. Works.

Now, before you mention "Gen Urobuchi"...

Yes, in many ways, he's a better writer than Okada. However, I have serious doubts as to how well Gen's generally grimdark stories would mesh with PA Works' generally very bright and moe artistic style. Yes, Madoka Magica had moe character designs, but "SHAFT being SHAFT" helped bridge the gap between that and Gen's much darker touch.

So, putting aside Gen here, who would you like to see replace Okada as a top writer for anime originals for P.A. Works? I certainly can't think of anybody. And if PA Works continues to do anime originals, they're going to need someone on staff who can write anime originals and do "series compositions" for anime originals.

I'm not saying that Okada is absolutely fantastic, but at least she's tried, tested, and true. She's a proven writer of generally competent anime originals (in the case of Anohana and True Tears, many hold one or both in very high regard). I can't speak for Reckoner and Archon_Wing, but for me at least, that's why I do tend to hold Okada in high regard.

Now as to more specific critiques...

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and since TJR answered a bit about what I wanted to say about why I attribute the problems in the writing (and planing) of the show to her (aside form the fact the majority of her work, both adaption and original) I think I'll touch on my own reasons for disliking her work.

Too many cooks Spoil the Broth? I think that Protection From Editors would be a better way to describe it. Only one who could salvage a show for a sea for fail? How can she do that if she is the one in charge of sailing the ship? The director? Sure, but the other works he's worked on didn't have the problems that the shows Okada had worked on. Issues that continue to pop up more and more frequently in her original works, to the point where it can't be attributed to anyone else but her.

Protection From the Editors is an interesting theory. I can see why you would think that this is what is causing problems to pop up in Hanasaku Iroha that were not there in True Tears.

It's ironic, though, because I'm actually inclined to believe that Executive Meddling is the cause of HSI's biggest problems, rather than such Executive Meddling actually being needed (as would be the case if "Protection From Editors" is the issue).

True Tears was very well-received by most of those who watched it, but it did not sell well. So in my mind, it's much more likely that the PA Works head honchos are thinking to themselves...

'Okada is a good writer, but we can't trust her to make something commercially viable without making her add in some more marketable elements. So with Hanasaku Iroha, we'll ask her to sex it up some!'

than...

'Okada is a sure money-winner for us! We better give her free reign to do whatever she wants, because there's no way we can afford to lose her!'

tl;dr - You think Hanasaku Iroha's problems are mostly due to Okada being given more free reign. I think that Hanasaku's Iroha problems are mostly due to Okada not being given enough free reign, and likely being told to write-in certain elements by her bosses.

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I don't hate the work Mari Okada makes, and certainly I think she works better when she is handling an adaption under some form of restriction to stick to the original script, but these days, with her making hit after hit,

Again, True Tears was not a commercial hit. Anohana is a commercial hit, but it came out a couple weeks after HSI did, so I doubt that influenced PA Works' assessment of how valuable Okada is to them during HSI's first cour, at the very least.

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She's good at dialogue, drama and general development of the cast,

Agreed. And this alone is pretty significant to me.

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but her biggest weakness comes in planning and pacing her shows through,

Yes, I agree with that. But well-paced anime can actually be pretty hard to find. Anohana is at least "standard" in that regard, imo.

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I love Hanasaku Iroha, it's a great looking show with a great cast, nice dialogue and some nice messages (most of the time anyway) and good music, but it's clear that the show hadn't been planned well enough, hadn't had the idea of it's premise fleshed out properly, and clearly had problems with the order it's stories had been told in. All of these problems are the faults of the main writer in my eye, and in this case it's Okada.

Okada gets some of the blame for that, but to me, everything you wrote here adds up to a net positive. In other words, I think the pros outweigh the cons.

Now, if you can suggest to me an anime original writer that you think could do better for PA Works than Okada has, then I'm all ears.

I can't think of one myself though.

On the HSI BGM debate... I haven't really noticed it either way, to be honest with you and Archon. So it's neither a big positive, or a big negative, to me. I can't think of many times when HSI's BGM has annoyed me, but nor can I think of many times when it's really impressed me and added a lot to the scene. Wait... it does have this one score that I really like, and is in my head right now. So that's something I guess.

On the whole though, I don't see BGM being a big positive or negative for the show. It could be worse. I've watched a few anime shows where the BGM actually annoyed me sometimes.

So yeh, HSI pales in comparison to TT's soundtrack. However, I wouldn't go as far and say HSI's OST is terrible or anything, just maybe not really noticeable. Then again, there are only a handful of OSTs that I would actually go and listen outside of watching anime - mostly Tenmon or Yuki Kajiara.

Ah fuck it I never did watch the extended ending from the Bluray Boxset, gonna start on this again. Like how I doubt Bones will ever surpass RahXephon I doubt P.A Works will ever surpass True Tears.

P A had its chance with HSI. The first two episodes were AMAZING as were the Tokyo/Satsuki arcs. Too bad that a string of episodes like 3, 7, 17 had to come around and RUIN its potential. Not to mention apart from recently, the entire 2nd cour has seemed fillerish - it's not bad but in no way is it great either. At the moment, HSI is an above average slice of life series, when it could have been a True Tears-level coming of age story (yes I realise it's a different genre, but people who has seen TT will know what I"m talking about in terms of quality). That's why I'm raging so much about HSI. Its good episodes are top notch but its bad episodes cause my face to morph into my current avatar.

But given Anohana's success (proof that "Key/Kyoani"-style melodrama is what sells) and True Tears bombing (and Wandering Son, which I felt had similar style/vibes as TT. It also bombed), I feel skeptical about even the supposedly great "Mari Okada" about writing more works that show her more subtle, dialogue-centric, non-hammy style that I admired. In other words I expect to see less True Tears and Wandering Son and more Clannad and Anohana in the future, which is a damn shame.

Not saying Key or Anohana is bad though. It's still good, but personally I think it is far too melodramatic and hammy for me to consider it the masterpiece a lot of people are claiming it to be. I mean have a look at the Anohana episode discussions. Basically it was a e-peen contest on how much people cried

You could say a lot of these tend to be more of a dramatic and more blatant note, but they also have their lighthearted and more subtle moments as well.

I could probably single out individual soundtracks, but I don't want to fill the page. Durarara frequently had low key BGM that worked, I'd say though.

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I disagree. Music placement is only a significant part of the process. Everything is centered around the actual OST.

Let me give you an example, The World God Only Knows anime. It has a fantastic OST, and the audio management is pretty fitting (though it improves by the second season, finally reaches a high point by the mid way point) but no matter how well it's used, the fact that there isn't a single track that can be described as comedic in nature cripples the show, to the point where there are comedy sketches with no BGM at all, in between dramatic scenes filled with different BGM.

The usage is important (e.g. Blood-C has some pretty great usage of it's BGM, while Fractale has some of the most hideous music placement I've heard all year long, and both had great OST) but unless the OST itself is well made (and fitting for the show) then it wont matter how well it's used

Yes, of course the soundtrack itself has to be some kind of quality. If the song is bad, there's nothing to talk about.

When I mean it's all that matters, I mean that if it fails at that, it automatically fails because it failed to do the job.

I never implied music quality and placement were mutually exclusive. Actually botching either will result in failure.

Unlimited Blade Works had GREAT music that works well as standalone. The way it's used is another story.

Anyhow, my point is you can't just see individual soundtracks in a vacuum. The only way to view them is part of the viewing experience.

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The Umineko Anime only used a single track throughout the show tho

I can't tell if you're joking.

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A very upbeat one. There is dramatic and comedic spikes, but it maintains a very ongoing and positive tone throughout.

Which unfortunately, doesn't mean anything to me. The BGM cannot be blamed 100% of course. It is only one of many problems to me.

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It could be because those scenes struck a chord with you, and thus thanks to their effective usage of the music during those scenes, you managed to connect and remember them more.

That, and Hanasaku doesn't have scenes of the same magnitude and effect on the viewer as True Tears had. It certainly tries, but what it does well is when it doesn't go big with the climax of it's arcs (since it's not really all that suited to have such things).

Perhaps, but I would say the BGM did more help than harm regardless.

You're right that HSI doesn't pack the same punch and isn't supposed to. I agree. Unfortunately, it's not a very subtle anime either, so there's nothing left, sadly. Except for comedy.

But actually you have a point, and why this probably won't go anywhere. The show just has a hard time convincing me on why I should care, and I'm a person that's unable to appreciate stuff I am unable to form a connection to, be it stories or musical score.

[Though there's a handful of things that I do care about, which kept me tuned in]

And the forum sucks at quoting quotes... if I didn't respond to anything here, then I agree.

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Originally Posted by Westlo

Personally I thought the score for True Tears was very good, I thought Hajime Kikuchi did a pretty damn good job, especially considering he has just been the composer for "eufonius" for the most part. I would even go as far as to say it's the soundtrack of the year.... but I realize this doesn't have as much "stand alone" appeal as others.

I thought he did a really good job of conveying emotion throughout his music, which you really don't see that much these days. To me when I hear the True Tears tracks I have images of the series pop up in my head, it has the emotional attachment, it's like listening to a good jrpg music score.

So yea, I really did believe True Tears did set up a better atmosphere. And since you found the OST memorable, I'd say it did its job well.

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Such a triumphant second half to that song, when the OST came out a month before the series ended my confidence levels in someone winning was sky high after hearing the full version of the song.

Ah fuck it I never did watch the extended ending from the Bluray Boxset, gonna start on this again. Like how I doubt Bones will ever surpass RahXephon I doubt P.A Works will ever surpass True Tears.

"Overflowing feelings" (Afure deru kimochi). Really nice bgm, makes me remember the drama (and the shipping wars).
Listened to it many times after watching the last episode years ago. ;_;

Spoiler for True Tears last episode:

Sometime ago I saw this doujin that has drawing style very similar to the anime. And it has a Noe x Shin ending. My first thought after seeing it is that a Noe fan somewhere (who has good drawing skills) isn't satisfied on how the anime ended.

As much as the TT soundtrack is great I've always felt that the Canaan OST is greatly underrated

It's done by Hikaru Nanase who's one of my favorites out there and is about the only thing where I've got no complaints when it comes to Canaan.

It's very much a "in your face" OST that takes from hollywood blockbusters,it did a great job of intensifying the scenes and while at first I thought it wouldn't be as good standalone I was pleasantly surprised when I listened to it and I could immediately recall the scenes a song was used in.

It appears that Another is well received amongst the anime community and it wasn't as divided as say Hanasaku Iroha once we got to know that anime's true colours, since the debut episode was misleading. Though we will have to see how it sells. My guess is that it will either break-even or make a slight profit given there isn't much "otaku-bait" outside of the occasional Mei moe. And the beach episode... which was actually not bad given it was a frigin beach episode.

Given it's PA's first adaptation, I think they did pretty well and is a potential candidate where A-class VNs, LNs and possibly manga to be adapted into the animated medium. What do other fellow posters think?

It appears that Another is well received amongst the anime community and it wasn't as divided as say Hanasaku Iroha once we got to know that anime's true colours, since the debut episode was misleading. Though we will have to see how it sells. My guess is that it will either break-even or make a slight profit given there isn't much "otaku-bait" outside of the occasional Mei moe. And the beach episode... which was actually not bad given it was a frigin beach episode.

Given it's PA's first adaptation, I think they did pretty well and is a potential candidate where A-class VNs, LNs and possibly manga to be adapted into the animated medium. What do other fellow posters think?

Another appears to be on track to sell ~2000 BD/DVDs combined for the first volume. Given that the amount sold will drop each month, it'd be close to Cannan in sales for P.A.'s worst selling series.

I disagree that it's been a good adaptation. The series feels incredibly drawn out and they had to include a new episode that wasn't in the original work to fit the story in 12 episodes. The artwork, which you could truly attribute to P.A., has been fantastic and I have no complaints about it. I think the problem lies with the series composition.

Another was decently received amongst the Japanese fanbase as well. It's just not a type of show that'll sell well and recoup production costs by disc sales alone.

Another's poor sales probably has more to do with Japanese otakus just not being much into Mystery/Horror than it has to do with P.A. Works in particular. Blood-C, Umineko, and Ookami Kakushi all also bombed, IIRC. I'm really starting to think that this genre just doesn't have a significant market amongst modern Japanese otakus. Another is Mystery/Horror done almost to perfection, and it has the added bonus of arguably moe character designs, so if it can't get this genre to sell, then I don't know what can.

Still, I was hoping that P.A. Works might have gained some brand name loyalty after AnoHana and HSI's success, but Another seems to strongly suggest otherwise.

Given it's PA's first adaptation, I think they did pretty well and is a potential candidate where A-class VNs, LNs and possibly manga to be adapted into the animated medium. What do other fellow posters think?

It's okay.

I think the show is far from a representative work for PA Works though. Gloss and pretty backdrops can't hide the limited budget (painfully obvious in the first episode, which isn't the best way to impress viewers), and the exceptional layouts of Canaan and Hanasaku Iroha are sorely missed.

Another may be a PA Works show, but it lacks the sumptuous qualities (through no fault of their own, mind you) that gave the studio its reputation.

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Blood-C, Umineko, and Ookami Kakushi all also bombed, IIRC.

All three were harshly received. The Umineko game was immensely popular, so I think Mystery/Horror can succeed under the right circumstances.

And Another has been very well-received from what I can tell. That didn't stop it from bombing.

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The Umineko game was immensely popular, so I think Mystery/Horror can succeed under the right circumstances.

Actually, that just shows how hard this genre has it in the anime world, as even when a Mystery/Horror anime is based on a very popular source material, it can still bomb and bomb hard.

We're talking about anime sales here, not game sales. Those are two different things. What's popular in one medium isn't necessarily popular in another.

I can't think of a single Mystery/Horror anime since Higurashi that sold well as an anime (and no, Madoka Magica doesn't count - It has some Mystery and Horror in it, but I wouldn't classify either as its primary genre).