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Scintillant-H wrote:First Class-? Damn, I hope this movie won't be THAT bad! First Class could have been worse, but still... damn. I remember walking out of the movie theater for that one with my brain trying to enact the "repressed memory" function. Sadly, not all was repressed

Yeah, I expect Victor Stone to show up briefly, and not show up again until a JL movie. OR, there's a post-or-mid-credits scene that has him waking up after an accident, and we may or may not see him with robot parts.

I do agree with the sentiment that this single movie is getting too many cameos. Iron Man had one, ONE cameo at the end, and that got everyone excited for Avengers four years in advance.

That said, this is, what, only the second confirmed non-super, non-bat character set to appear? Stuff like The Rock, Aquaman, and Robin are all just spastic fan ranting, isn't it?

Scintillant-H wrote:"train wreck" just reminds me of the idiocy that is "Batman Eternal" If you haven't been reading, there's a big, literal, train wreck in the plot. And the villain has flowers on his shirt. Wish. I. Was. Kidding.

I have to respectfully disagree. While Eternal is still just starting and I wouldn't call it epic, they're building to something here, something that's clearly been planned for a while (which not everything New52 related can say). I've liked what they've done in three out of the intended 60 issues.

SporkBot wrote:Yeah, I expect Victor Stone to show up briefly, and not show up again until a JL movie. OR, there's a post-or-mid-credits scene that has him waking up after an accident, and we may or may not see him with robot parts.

I didn't care for Man of Steel so I did not get the home version. According to the article though, there was a mention of Stone in either some deleted or bonus material.

I think one of the frequent problems with superhero movies is that they try to introduce too many new characters per film. Spider-Man 3 had this issue -- too many villains (Harry kind of, Venom, and Sandman). Now you need a mini-origin story or an "establishment" scene for each one, and that eats up 10-15 minutes of screen time per character. Now you have a 2-hour movie with 30-45 minutes unable to be devoted to the main plot, so the main plot gets short shrift.

Same thing happened in Batman Returns (Catwoman AND Penguin), Batman Forever (Riddler AND Two-Face AND Robin), Dark Knight Rises (Catwoman AND Bane AND Talia), and so on.

I think this is one of the reasons why the Marvel Studios movies have been overall better story-wise, even when they're not that great (like IM 2, IM 3, Thor 2). Most of the time they introduce ONE major villain. By the time we got to Avengers, ALL the characters had been introduced before. So they could focus on the story and did not have to waste valuable movie time explaining who Thor is, who Loki is, etc. That's what made using Loki as the main (on screen) villain such a great idea -- everyone already knew who he was, and plus he is a great villain AND played by an awesome actor, so how can you lose?

With this S vs. B movie, yes, Bats and Supes are known, but now they have to introduce WW (10 minutes), Cyborg (10 minutes) , Lex Luthor (10 minutes)... and who else? There goes 30, 40, more minutes of screen time NOT devoted to the plot. Which means they will have to have a simplistic, short plot, or else one that is cut around so badly no one knows what is going on.

Chessack wrote:I think one of the frequent problems with superhero movies is that they try to introduce too many new characters per film. Spider-Man 3 had this issue -- too many villains (Harry kind of, Venom, and Sandman).

I feel the same way, but each was kind of essential to the underlying themes of revenge and forgiveness (which is why I still like the film). Like Iron Man 3, it's underappreciated, but at least Spidey 3 is more understandably so.

With this S vs. B movie, yes, Bats and Supes are known, but now they have to introduce WW (10 minutes), Cyborg (10 minutes) , Lex Luthor (10 minutes)... and who else? There goes 30, 40, more minutes of screen time NOT devoted to the plot. Which means they will have to have a simplistic, short plot, or else one that is cut around so badly no one knows what is going on.

Not necessarily. I don't think they need to devote too much time introducing Lex. He's about as much a household name as Superman. Everyone knows who he is. It's possible to introduce him as part of the plot. And I don't think Diana or Victor would need any more development or focus away from the plot than Agent Coulson or Fury in Iron Man. All you need is Diana introducing herself to Bats and/or Supes, saying something like, "see you around", then not seen again. Boom. Done.

Chessack wrote:I think one of the frequent problems with superhero movies is that they try to introduce too many new characters per film. Spider-Man 3 had this issue -- too many villains (Harry kind of, Venom, and Sandman). Now you need a mini-origin story or an "establishment" scene for each one, and that eats up 10-15 minutes of screen time per character. Now you have a 2-hour movie with 30-45 minutes unable to be devoted to the main plot, so the main plot gets short shrift.

Same thing happened in Batman Returns (Catwoman AND Penguin), Batman Forever (Riddler AND Two-Face AND Robin), Dark Knight Rises (Catwoman AND Bane AND Talia), and so on.

I think this is one of the reasons why the Marvel Studios movies have been overall better story-wise, even when they're not that great (like IM 2, IM 3, Thor 2). Most of the time they introduce ONE major villain. By the time we got to Avengers, ALL the characters had been introduced before. So they could focus on the story and did not have to waste valuable movie time explaining who Thor is, who Loki is, etc. That's what made using Loki as the main (on screen) villain such a great idea -- everyone already knew who he was, and plus he is a great villain AND played by an awesome actor, so how can you lose?

With this S vs. B movie, yes, Bats and Supes are known, but now they have to introduce WW (10 minutes), Cyborg (10 minutes) , Lex Luthor (10 minutes)... and who else? There goes 30, 40, more minutes of screen time NOT devoted to the plot. Which means they will have to have a simplistic, short plot, or else one that is cut around so badly no one knows what is going on.

Which is why I wish we got some other DC films before they dropped Superman Vs Batman as they could have introduced some of the other characters before leading up to this particular movie.

I have to respectfully disagree. While Eternal is still just starting and I wouldn't call it epic, they're building to something here, something that's clearly been planned for a while (which not everything New52 related can say). I've liked what they've done in three out of the intended 60 issues.

That's fine with me I don't mind when someone disagrees, and other people's enjoyment of what I don't care for is the only thing that allows me to close those books with some peace instead of grief. I was going to say "absolute grief" and "enjoyment of what I hate"--but even I have to admit that Batman Eternal isn't nearly as awful as I was expecting.

I was only really speaking on part of the three books as they stand on their own. Not together, but literally, by themselves. Same as I said in that RHATO cover thread, I think every product should be able to stand alone, even when it's part of a series, and if it can, then you know it's a good one, if only for you personally. I can't gauge the whole series even if it was only meant to be 4 books long, because book 4 hasn't come out yet. As much of a bitch as I can be, even I'm not willing to be unfair, in that or any other way.

I hate how it's this cliche action movie twist at every other turn in the Eternal books, but I've come to expect cheap moves like that from Snyder. That's kind of my point about it not being as bad as I was expecting--I really thought it would be like or close to how Snyder's Batman series was, with Batman #28 being an indicator due to Tynion also being on that book. And #28 was... it was just... oh damn.... it was just so. F***ing. Bad.

With three "consulting writers" on Eternal's staff, I think that helped a lot, especially John Layman. I'm not familiar with his (or the other consulting writer's works) regular style (I grew up under a rock, remember), but from what I read in a couple of Layman's books, one of them being "Aliens Inhumane Conditions" (which I loved to death--HIGHLY recommend it) the man is damn good. He managed to make Harper Row, a huge ass Mary Sue, TOLERABLE. *

That, and Fobok is doing a freakishly amazing job on the art for Eternal. I mean--AMAZING. I look at Jim Lee's work and laugh that I can do better if I put effort into it (and not much effort either), but Jason Fabok... damn. I could match him, but all holy f***, it would about kill me. (his attempts to sexify Catwoman could have gone better, though) Even if someone hated the story more than anything else ever, Eternal is worth reading for that almighty artwork. I seriously can't wait for book 4, JUST for Fabok's work. That, and I like Gordon, and corny script or no, I hate seeing him in this position.... it's almost as bad as if someone smacked Alfred. NO. NOT WITHOUT LOSING THEIR OWN ASS-HAT WEARING FACE. NO.

I could get into the book's flaws, but a.) take too long, b.) I'm sure no one cares (not that it would stop me if it mattered enough to me ) and c.) I'm still hoping that the potholes in the story are going to be explained in future books. Like WTF was Catwoman doing at the MTA building? Batman was already in there long enough that she couldn't have seen him and just followed him (presumably) so was she there for some other reason besides "because it would be dramatic for her to be there when batman realized that Falcone is back"--? BS. I'm giving the books a chance to explain this, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm also not thrilled with the absolute BS in how they're handling Stephanie Brown's story, and no amount of books can explain how she can punch the gas canister on her dad's belt considering what her physical position to him was at the time.

But I've lost myself in "bitching mode" now. Seriously, though, it's always nice to hear from someone who likes something I don't like, but it's more satisfying when it's someone I respect. Which is most people at OH, really. (I'm insanely stupid like that XD)

* on the note of John Layman's work, I'm currently taking the pre-reboot in chronological order (not all of it, just the series that I feel like reading) and I don't know where/when I'm going to come across any of Layman's work. I came to "Inhumane Conditions" by accident, even. I could google his wiki or something, and get a list, but it wouldn't really tell his best work, in or out of DC, plus any bastard can edit the wiki. I'd rather listen to the bastards on OH. Not in doing what they say, just in listening to it.

If anyone has any suggestions as to Layman's best books--I'M LISTENING.

Scintillant-H wrote:I'm also not thrilled with the absolute BS in how they're handling Stephanie Brown's story, and no amount of books can explain how she can punch the gas canister on her dad's belt considering what her physical position to him was at the time.

She had something in her hand. She punctured, rather than punched. Though it's kind of hard to tell what it was...

About the Cyborg thing: cool. I have been thinking about it and I have come to terms with Cyborg being on the League. I got over my anger of Martian Manhunter not being a founding member anymore. The regular Justice League book has got so off the focus of being the Justice League and has basically become Forever Evil. If Martian Manhunter was kept a founding member he would be having to keep going on in the crappy Justice League book.

I've been loving all the books Martian Manhunter has been in so maybe it was better of DC to be PC and promote Cyborg to founding member status of the Justice League.