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The European Commission quietly approved an agreement this Monday which gives the US Department of Homeland Security unprecedented access to the personal information of anyone on a transatlantic flight, including details of their sexual orientation.

The DHS insists on the right to use the information for disease control, and there are fears that gay passengers may be singled out as possible HIV risks.

when i was in US immigration a couple of weeks ago they gave me a bit of a grilling about why i visited the US so often - asked me if i was married or had a boyfriend??!! dont know what that was about but i felt distinctly uncomfortable and insulted that the implication was that i was a sex tourist. and that was without knowing my poz status...

Quote from the article:"The agreement adds 19 possible new categories, including information on ethnic origin, political and philosophical opinions, credit card numbers, trade union membership, sex life and details of the passengers' health.

The information will be provided by passengers when making bookings. "

yeah as if im gonna tell them my political/philosophical opinions and all about my (non-existent) sex life and dodgy health just so i can visit my friends and family.

and as if a terrorist is gonna come clean to the travel agent that they are a terrorist.

and i wouldnt like my credit card details getting sent to the US govt either - potential for spying / card fraud alert!!!

this is all a very scary infringement of privacy and I for one will be getting as many people as possible to contact their MP / MEP about it

"I'm not keen on the idea of the afterlife - not without knowing who else will be there and what the entertainment will be. Personally I'd rather just take a rest." Oscar Berger, PWA: Looking AIDS in the Face, 1996. RIP.

http://www.bushslastday.com/bought a sticker of the above but im now thinking that maybe i will be asking for trouble if i stick it on my suitcase...

also, when i got my suitcase back when i got to the states the other week i discovered that the luggage searchers had gone thru it. i had about 10kg of assorted food & drink goodies to give as presents. the only jar they had opened to investigate (despite it having one of those popper things to show that it had not - yet - been opened) was a jar of curry paste!!! what did they think it was 'jihad in a jar'??!! so thanks to homeland security inspectors i then had curry paste leak out of the (now improperly sealed) jar onto my clothes - lovely.

sorry ive gone a bit off topic but its just that 99% of this US screening really pisses me off and i dont believe will stop any terrorists either

"I'm not keen on the idea of the afterlife - not without knowing who else will be there and what the entertainment will be. Personally I'd rather just take a rest." Oscar Berger, PWA: Looking AIDS in the Face, 1996. RIP.

also, when i got my suitcase back when i got to the states the other week i discovered that the luggage searchers had gone thru it. i had about 10kg of assorted food & drink goodies to give as presents. the only jar they had opened to investigate (despite it having one of those popper things to show that it had not - yet - been opened) was a jar of curry paste!!! what did they think it was 'jihad in a jar'??!! so thanks to homeland security inspectors i then had curry paste leak out of the (now improperly sealed) jar onto my clothes - lovely.

And this is one of the reasons why I have decided to travel light with only a carry-on bag whenever I travel to the US - and also why no-one will be getting any presents.

And the DHS can eff off too!

Melia (who has zero tolerance for infringement of civil rights, overkill and bullshit)

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The difference between cats and dogs is that dogs come when called, whereas cats take a message and get back to you.

I myself will never go to the States. I will never sneak around hiding my meds or posting them in advance and hoping they don't get caught. It's too bad because there are trips I wanted to take and people I wanted to meet, also workwise I am supposed to go to the US once in a while, but it is, along with Australia and China and Russia (and Iran and Saudi Arabia) off the map for me. I don't have much money and I will only spend it in countries that do not breed hate and discrimination against me, such as Thailand, Canada, Morocco, Japan, Mexico and the EU. The evil EU who signed this, wonder if it will mean something for the EU as well.

It might sound full of self importance, like who the F am I, but it's the only thing I can do to maintain a bit of dignity. Just not go. They know that we are sneaking in there and they enjoy tormenting us, we shouldn't give them the satisfaction.

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"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

as an American I have to say, PLEASE, do not judge us based on the current administration. 1) BUSH was never elected...his little brother stole the election for him in Florida in 20002) 75% of Americans disapprove of the son of a bitch...and yes his mother is a real fucking bitch.3) Don't let them get away with this shit...rather, come here if anything just to piss him off.

Rich(who hates BUSH, his family, friends and anyone associated with that fuckwad)

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POSITIVE PEDALERS... We are a group of people living with HIV/AIDS, eliminating stigma through our positive public example.

I myself will never go to the States. I will never sneak around hiding my meds or posting them in advance and hoping they don't get caught. It's too bad because there are trips I wanted to take and people I wanted to meet, also workwise I am supposed to go to the US once in a while, but it is, along with Australia and China and Russia (and Iran and Saudi Arabia) off the map for me. I don't have much money and I will only spend it in countries that do not breed hate and discrimination against me, such as Thailand, Canada, Morocco, Japan, Mexico and the EU. The evil EU who signed this, wonder if it will mean something for the EU as well.

It might sound full of self importance, like who the F am I, but it's the only thing I can do to maintain a bit of dignity. Just not go. They know that we are sneaking in there and they enjoy tormenting us, we shouldn't give them the satisfaction.

I'm not sure why this has become such a hot issue when we really don't know what the actual guidelines will be. When words like "possible" as in "possible new categories..." is included in an article I don't give it much credence, especially when it comes from a news source that has an agenda as well. It is my belief that this agreement is intended to seek out criminals and terrorists not gay people or people with HIV.

as an American I have to say, PLEASE, do not judge us based on the current administration. 1) BUSH was never elected...his little brother stole the election for him in Florida in 20002) 75% of Americans disapprove of the son of a bitch...and yes his mother is a real fucking bitch.3) Don't let them get away with this shit...rather, come here if anything just to piss him off.

Rich(who hates BUSH, his family, friends and anyone associated with that fuckwad)

Arguments about 2000 aside - we certainly did elect him in 2004 and who the fuck gives a damn that we all hate him now when we are the ones who unleashed him to begin with.

Nope - I think the world has every bit a right to be pissed at us Americans.

Breathtakingly idiotic. You really wonder just what goes on in Washington. Not too long ago I heard the US tourist industry is continuing to suffer severely in the aftermath of 9/11, whereas tourism elsewhere in the world has recovered. Well, little wonder. You're treated to the most draconian measures imaginable if you have the audacity to visit, by officials who are at best surly, but more often downright rude. Measures, more to the point, that will have little or no effect on terrorism. And that, of course, is only after you've queued for hours because not a single US airport appears to be staffed adequately. No other country I can think of treats its visitors with such contempt. No-one in their right mind would not anticipate all their personal information, incl fingerprints, will be kept on file in some CIA bunker.

What makes this new requirement particularly ridiculous is that it apparently will be up to the airlines to collect the data. As if anyone halfway sane is going to volunteer it! Or if passengers are made to, then what's to stop you from lying? I, for one, certainly will be. I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that Washington has pushed this. Far more disappointed, however, that the EU hasn't had the balls to turn the request down flat.

And while we're at it - we're still waiting for the implementation of the easing of the ban on HIV+ tourists visiting the US. Almost eight months after Bush made the announcement!

Unless you really have to, you certainly end up thinking twice about going to the US - such a shame because it's actually an amazing country with some amazing people in it. Personally, I'm thinking of going to Canada on holiday...

Arguments about 2000 aside - we certainly did elect him in 2004 and who the fuck gives a damn that we all hate him now when we are the ones who unleashed him to begin with.

Nope - I think the world has every bit a right to be pissed at us Americans.

there are speculations about OHIO in 2004, I've heard Brinks rigged their voting machines...just saying...lol now, as far as having the right to be pissed at all of us Americans, yes, I can understand and relate to that...I am pissed off at all the idiots that voted for stupid and now are crying wolf.

Rich(who has never voted republican in his life)

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POSITIVE PEDALERS... We are a group of people living with HIV/AIDS, eliminating stigma through our positive public example.

I think everyone is getting upset over nothing. I believe if you knew the real story it's not HIV that they are concerned about as much as other diseases that can cause havoc. So before everyone gets in a tail spin lets wait and see what it is all about. We freaked on bird flu and nothing came of that. I don't believe anything will come of this.

I think everyone is getting upset over nothing. I believe if you knew the real story it's not HIV that they are concerned about as much as other diseases that can cause havoc. So before everyone gets in a tail spin lets wait and see what it is all about. We freaked on bird flu and nothing came of that. I don't believe anything will come of this.

I get both you and bryout points. Seriously I do.

However I think them even wanting Sexual Orientation on a check list is enough to be upset about.

Look at the last few years and how often we have been finding out that the U.S. government has misused and abused its own citizens personal information. Look at how they had the show down with the internet companies and libraries over their people's reading lists and internet search history.

Maybe it is just me but I don't need to have the fears realized in order to have my caution raised and ring the alarm. You may choose to see it as a false alarm and that is your decision but I leave you with a request:

If they aren't collecting the information for nefarious reasons related to profiling and discrimination, please provide a logical explanation of why the U.S. governement needs to know that you suck cock before letting you through the airport?

Did you actually read the article Iggy? Gay passengers may be singled out as possible HIV risks. This article has no facts, just presumptions. No more than that. It's an article to entice fear and apprehensions and by reading this thread it's working.

Yeah, there does seem to be a lot of jumping to conclusions and hysteria without knowing the full story. Since the HIV ban has been removed, why would the US government need to try and single out gays for HIV exclusion? Wouldn't it be more simple to just keep the HIV ban in place, if you want to prevent HIV folks from coming to the US?

Plus the European Commission agreed to this. Why isn't anyone taking them to task? It's one thing to ask for the information, but to agree to provide such information on your own citizens seems like a much bigger issue.

Also the US government is asking for whatever information is available (race, political affiliation, sexual orientation, union membership)....but says sensitive information such as sexual orientation wouldn't be used. I don't think this is just something against gays or people with HIV. The government is asking for whatever information is available.

Since the HIV ban has been removed, why would the US government need to try and single out gays for HIV exclusion?

Very possibly because the ban hasn't been removed - and it isn't within the power of the President alone to lift the ban anyway. Since the announcement on World AIDS Day 2006 there has been no further details forthcoming. When they do finally get the finger out it looks like it will be a 'categorical waiver', still requiring disclosure and probably attracting a nice fat stamp in your passport, which will no doubt prompt questions as you go to other countries. Not a huge improvement on the status quo.

I think everyone is getting upset over nothing. I believe if you knew the real story it's not HIV that they are concerned about as much as other diseases that can cause havoc. So before everyone gets in a tail spin lets wait and see what it is all about. We freaked on bird flu and nothing came of that. I don't believe anything will come of this.

I think it's unfounded hysteria myself. If one really reads the article it only mentions "sex life and details of the passengers' health" without really saying what that means. I would assume the sex part is more geared towards child molesters, etc. There's already now a waiver for HIV so the health part is a non-issue.

This article is bullshit -- I don't see how they plan on ascertaining someone's sexual orientation. Subscriptions to Honcho or something? Come on.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Did you actually read the article Iggy? Gay passengers may be singled out as possible HIV risks. This article has no facts, just presumptions. No more than that. It's an article to entice fear and apprehensions and by reading this thread it's working.

Did you read my actual post that you responded to Rod? You will see I fully account for the may. Check again.

I wonder what your take would be on when they announce that they might cut ADAP do you just say no big deal until they do it?

What if you have a person that is neg and says that they may bareback - do you ask them to come back to you for your thoughts after the fact?

Sometimes just something being contemplated is enough to others and want to effect a change in thought before the action is carried out.

Modified - about your statement of the article's intentions - In regards to this administration - they don't need to do much to entice fear outside of report the truth. Sorry Rod - but the govt acknowledged the they are considering this - so yeah - I think we should be afraid...or at least not asleep at the switch.

I think it's unfounded hysteria myself. If one really reads the article it only mentions "sex life and details of the passengers' health" without really saying what that means. I would assume the sex part is more geared towards child molesters, etc. There's already now a waiver for HIV so the health part is a non-issue.

This article is bullshit -- I don't see how they plan on ascertaining someone's sexual orientation. Subscriptions to Honcho or something? Come on.

Perhaps another article might help - IT week is not a political paper and they acknowledge the sexual orientation aspect as well.

The reason why people are concerned is that anti homosexual propaganda was used to get dumb and dummerer in The Whitehouse last time and it is a big strategy for the next elections as well. They still want people thinking gays=HIV= the scurge of the world, deny them their rights here and keep them out of this great land of ours. How did they decide to reduce the humanity of the prisoners in Irak? By posing them in homosexual acts. This is reality. I would not be surprised if the wise people of the UNITED STATES of Amerka elected another Republican Administration again, because people will shoot themselves in the foot just so those dirty homosexuals do not keep encroaching on the morally righteous. It is the perfect way to throw ink in the water and get in the whitehouse again. Yes, everyone should question request of information they have no business knowing, information the closet cases in the administration do not have to answer. Ridiculous!!!!!!

I think the issue is that they should even ask such a question, thereby forcing people to lie because it is none of their damn business, and they do not know how the information is relevant for someone who just wants to go on vacation.

I was wondering myself how any western gov't would know someone's sexual orientation to begin with also.

This seems alot to do about nothing. Yeah yeah, Bush is bad. I got the memo quite a few years ago. Yeah yeah, the religous right freaked out about gays and gained a whole lot of power after 9/11. But it's over for them. The United States is alot of things. Some not so great. It also has the Gay Mecca of the world...San Francisco. Shit, even the mayor goes to the Gay Pride Parade in Chicago...the capital of the stodgy midwest. It's not black and white, and Bush did do that Presidential Order to grant waivers to all HIV+ people. I think he's a nutjob, but I'll give him credit for that...might as well.

And Dragonette. You mention how you'll visit Japan but not the evil evil US of A. I have a HIV+ friend in Japan. Discrimination there against HIV+ people is WAAAAY worse than it is in the US. Just because there isn't a stupid law doesn't mean there isn't discrimination. Either way Japan is still a really nice country. Funny how that happens.

This is not a new issue but something that has been bouncing around pretty much since 9/11.

My understanding is that the earlier agreement was annulled by the European Court of Justice (or similar) due to privacy concerns. A temp agreement was put in place - I guess this one expires soon or has expired.

From what I understand, when you book a ticket and make travel plans to go from the EU to the US, certain information you provide when buying your ticket are passed on by the airline to the DHS in the US. Similar info is gathered and passed on from Aus, and most likely other places. Things like your email address (if you give one), credit card details (if you use one), itinerary etc are passed on. They don't ask if you are gay, a terrorist, a unionist or anything like that when you buy a ticket, so it's obviously not passed on.

The concerns seem to be about what the US government does with the information you provide, how long they hold it for, and what other information the US adds to it. For example, if you use a credit card to buy your ticket, the DHS may snoop around to check your purchasing habits (ie have you bought lots of fertiliser later, and I guess, do you subscribe to or buy porn with the card - would they really give a rats arse if you did). Similarly, if you give your email address the DHS could potentially access your email account to see who you email, what you say, etc etc. Normally, one would need a supbpoena from a court to do this, but I'm not sure if the DHS requires one.

At the end of the day though, unless you have been doing some fairly suspect things, or hanging with some suspect people I can't imagine that the DHS will be singling you out from the millions of EU visitors to the US each year.

Edited to add: Dragonette. I'm surious why Australia is on your list - we have no restriction on HIV+ people holidaying here, and applications for permanent residency are decided on a case by case basis. Granted, there has been some talk about a blanket banning of HIV+ immigrating here but it was shouted down pretty loudly and I've not heard it mentioned again.

Also, you have Thailand on your list as a place you will travel to. However, Thailand bans the entry of any person with a communicable disease (eg HIV). Granted, for short stays from Aus, we need no visa and no medical check, so it is unlikely they will find out if you don't say anything, but I bet immigrating there is just not an option.

Why do the airlines the gov't or anyone need to know if you are in a trade union. Is that now a crime too in the land of the far right? Have the globalizers demonized trade unions, the very thing that allowed the average working man to own a decent salary and touch off the post war boom. How far we've fallen. This is way too big brother, I'm shocked that the citizens of the supposed "land of the free" stand for it.

Do you honestly believe our disgusting, immoral U.S. government doesn't know that you and I are fags? Do you really believe they don't know we are HIV-infected? After all the recent invasion-of-privacy scandals that have recently been reported by our cowardly and intimidated journalists (phone records, e-mails, subscription lists)--which means there's a hell of a lot more we don't know about--isn't it more than a little naive at this depressing, sorry time to doubt for one second that they've got a little list and are checking it twice? Accuse me of paranoia, but, remember, when the truth finally all comes out--if it ever does--I warned anyone who would listen.

It is perhaps a sign of how satanically bewitched the American populace is that the loudest objectors in this link are the non-Americans and that the Americans are the ones here who are defensive and protesting that all of this is a tempest in a teacup. How horrific that so many of our fellow U.S. citizens are failing to fight against the loss of the basic principles embedded in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights and fail to see or believe what is happening. I worry greatly that we are really are doomed...and I do not doubt for a second that this diatribe of mine here is recorded by the NSA.

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Sorry, but how will the US government know we are "fags"? But is that even a relevant issue? This isn't about what the US government knows or doesn't know, it's about what the EU knows. They are the ones who will be providing this information on their citizens/residents to the US government!

So, how does the EU know that I am a "fag"? I doubt they even know I am HIV positive. I'm fairly comfortable in knowing that my HIV clinic would not share such information without my permission.

PS someone asked "how would they know?", if the info is passed from the EU, they would know who is married to a same sex partner, or registered as living together, they might ask directly whom is treated for HIV in the hospital, I mean for sure we are all on the record. It would depend on the discretion fo the particular countries to decide how much info they pass on. An EU member like Poland for example, which is extremely homophobic and practically outlaws homosexuality, could disclose an awful lot.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 05:19:43 AM by Dragonette »

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"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

If the U.S. government is compiling sexual data on non-U.S. citizens, then it is certainly doing so on its own citizens. If the U.S. Centers for Disease Control demands name reporting on HIV cases--which includes mode of transmission (heterosexual sex, MSM, injection-drug use)--I have no doubt this information is available to other divisions of the current fascistic administration. I have no doubt our current government can easily secure the names of those purchasing HAART drugs from pharmacies and insurance companies. And yes, I have no doubt they know who subscribes to "Honcho" and "The Advocate" and make assumptions about same. I know in point of fact that the FBI infiltrated ACT UP during its heyday. It is strongly suspected that the FBI is still infiltrating activist organizations--or what is left of them. And the FBI is child's play compared with what the current National Security Administration is nefariously capable of doing.

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Edited to add: Dragonette. I'm surious why Australia is on your list - we have no restriction on HIV+ people holidaying here, and applications for permanent residency are decided on a case by case basis. Granted, there has been some talk about a blanket banning of HIV+ immigrating here but it was shouted down pretty loudly and I've not heard it mentioned again.

Also, you have Thailand on your list as a place you will travel to. However, Thailand bans the entry of any person with a communicable disease (eg HIV). Granted, for short stays from Aus, we need no visa and no medical check, so it is unlikely they will find out if you don't say anything, but I bet immigrating there is just not an option.

Australia, I also heard it was an immigration ban but then a poz Israeli tourist has been turned away a couple months back, though he might have been entering with an intent to stay, I dunno, but anyway he was on a tourist visa, it was in the papers (then it must be true right? ). Anyway I'll be glad to put it back on the map if I'm wrong

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"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

so long as you are on this track, why wouldn't they simply be checking the IP address of the AIDSmeds forum users?

Fearless, I forgot to mention this before, I know Thailand bans HIV immigration (ironically I have been in and out of that country more than anywhere else incl. the Netherlands), but if I limited my list only to countries that allow me to immigrate it would be very narrow indeed.

I'm just hoping I can eventually move to Spain with my BF. I know they do not officially allow immigration but I do know poz people who have moved there from other EU countries, so am hopeful.

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"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

so long as you are on this track, why wouldn't they simply be checking the IP address of the AIDSmeds forum users?

I don't see how anyone who is not a moderator or administrator of this website would be able to access the IP addresses of people who post here - and we certainly do NOT give this or any other information to any third parties.

Besides, IP numbers don't show us where a person lives, other than in very general terms. As far as I'm aware, to obtain any detailed information on a person, going by their IP address, you'd have to go to the ISP from which the IP originates and I do believe that would take a court order. I can't see them bothering to get court orders on every single person posting here - especially considering they don't have access to the IP numbers in the first place.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

To talk about "court orders" or to to say, "There is a law," is meaningless to a government that wilfully ignores all that silly nonsense. They have already been shown to completely ignore the court-order requirement to institute a wire tap. They have shown no compunction in forcing telephone companies to turn over millions of records. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales was eviscerated for the second time yesterday before the Senate Judiciary Committee and accused of lying about pushing through a program that had already been determined to be illegal by the Justice Dept. The committee will have to issue contempt citations for members of Bush's court who refuse to testify. Law (and court orders) are meaningless to an executive branch of government who believe they are above all of that and can do anything they please. When you live in a dictatorship that rules by secrecy, anything goes. You can imprison anyone in a secret location without stating the charges for as long as you please and without bringing him to trial. What is a court order to an executive who ignores the law and the courts?

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire