knives of ice wrote:Ok, watched the end of the CBC broadcast on gamecenter and Letang was going to shoot third for the Pens. Geno was definitely sitting, even the shootout. I had wondered about that.

There is no doubt the pens need to be better defensively, but believe it or not i think I can see improvement over the past 3 games. they were much improved against tampa, the philly game i can't blame the defense for most of those goals MAF was horrible that game. tonight, i think the first goal is soft, the 2nd nobody in the league would have stopped and can't blame the d on that one either. the leafs got some crazy bounces on the goals tonight. at least we haven't had defensemen badly pinching in the offensive zone causing breaks the other way. there has been some improvement in the past few games as sad as that is. we'll see if there is more evidence this week.

the big measuring stick for me to see where this team is will come this week against the bruins.

also, i expect some big pickups at the deadline. last year i think shero thought we were fine and loved the team, hell everyone did for the most part. this year i think he will try frantically to fill holes.

And I agree that the D can be better, but I believe that they will make moves too. I do not see 2 on 1s or 3 on 2s all over the ice, so I don't think that you can just say they don't care.

Jamie wrote:JVR was parked quite comfortably in front him, and re-directed the initial shot. Any goalie who stopped the redirect on that would have done so by pure luck. Fleury was in good position for the initial shot. JVR should not be allowed to park himself in front like that, without taking a beating for it.

This is just incorrect. Any goalie should have stopped it with appropriate technique. His stick needs to be in proper position, and that puck is stopped.

And then what? More than likely, JVR pops in the rebound. I'm curious to hear how the rest of the goals were Fleury's fault tonight and how a real NHL goalie such as yourself would have stopped them.

farnham16 wrote:No, the part where it clearly shows Engo moving at the last second when if he just would have stood still he would have blocked the shot. Also the part where it shows MAF moving around before the shot trying to get a view of it.

farnham16, I perfectly understood your point. It's crystal clear in the slo-mo replay, that Engelland not only moves AWAY from the incoming shot (wtf? you are supposed to be defending)... but that he couldn't have done it any better if he was TRYING to screen the goalie.

How anybody could blame MAF on that is beyond absurd. Even the announcers, not Pens homers for sure, at first were cooking MAF.... then you could hear the hesitation in their voices as that slo-mo replay showed for all that it was entirely Engelland's fault for awful %@&sy play.

Just imagine for a second, that was Letang shooting against ANY team. His shot gets blocked. That's what happens when the other team actually has players willing to close the shooter down and....block the shot. I think the lady sitting in section C could block more of a shot than Engelland did there.

Didn't get to watch the game. Seems like more of the same. Another stellar effort from the PK, it appears. Giving up goals almost instantly on the first two PP, with Fleury having absolutely no chance since the D can't move anyone away from him. If there's one area they could maybe improve by roster moves alone that might make a difference, it's picking up a couple D who can actually protect the area around the goal. Don't know how realistic that kind of maneuvering would be.

Otherwise, I'm not going to harp on it anymore. Nothing left to say. Playing pond hockey is going to waste all this talent.

Jamie wrote:JVR was parked quite comfortably in front him, and re-directed the initial shot. Any goalie who stopped the redirect on that would have done so by pure luck. Fleury was in good position for the initial shot. JVR should not be allowed to park himself in front like that, without taking a beating for it.

This is just incorrect. Any goalie should have stopped it with appropriate technique. His stick needs to be in proper position, and that puck is stopped.

That is your opinion. I disagree. The puck was redirected and Fleury was in position to save the initial shot. He could not react fast enough to stop the change of direction. On a side note, how do you even know if he could see the puck with JVR right in front of him like that? It really does not matter what technique you use, your chances of stopping the puck are reduced if you can not see it. JVR should have been served pizza and beer for the comfort level he had parked in front of MAF.

Vokoun lost his mind in Florida with players buzzing around his crease.... he's just finally settling into the reality that MAF has dealt with the past few years. If you play goaltender in Pittsburgh, prepare for guys standing undefended in front of you for long periods of time.

Jamie wrote:JVR was parked quite comfortably in front him, and re-directed the initial shot. Any goalie who stopped the redirect on that would have done so by pure luck. Fleury was in good position for the initial shot. JVR should not be allowed to park himself in front like that, without taking a beating for it.

This is just incorrect. Any goalie should have stopped it with appropriate technique. His stick needs to be in proper position, and that puck is stopped.

That is your opinion. I disagree. The puck was redirected and Fleury was in position to save the initial shot. He could not react fast enough to stop the change of direction. On a side note, how do you even know if he could see the puck with JVR right in front of him like that? It really does not matter what technique you use, your chances of stopping the puck are reduced if you can not see it. JVR should have been served pizza and beer for the comfort level he had parked in front of MAF.

Snapshot is right. When a goalie goes down, you have to seal to the ice with your leg pads. Not only did Fleury not have his stick positioned properly, he didn't seal down hard and tight with his legs. Great screen by JVR, but Fleury has to make at least the initial save.

Jamie wrote:JVR was parked quite comfortably in front him, and re-directed the initial shot. Any goalie who stopped the redirect on that would have done so by pure luck. Fleury was in good position for the initial shot. JVR should not be allowed to park himself in front like that, without taking a beating for it.

This is just incorrect. Any goalie should have stopped it with appropriate technique. His stick needs to be in proper position, and that puck is stopped.

This is just incorrect. His stick is 'out of position' because he's reacting to the initial shot...which is going short-side. He's in the process of moving his stick to the short side to probably deflect it away from the Leaf parked unmarked right in front of him. JVR's redirection goes back across the grain, off the inside of his left pad, and squirts though the 5-hole...all because he's shifting to his right to stop the initial shot.

For someone that likes to 'drops knowledge' about how to tend goal, you seem to conveniently miss some of the important details.

The 2nd goal was a great shot taken after an uncontested cross-ice pass with MAF completely screened. The 3rd goal was weak, but so was the D in front of it. 4th goal nothing he could do. He also stoned Kessel on another uncontested cross-ice feed, made a great toe save that hurt my groin, and came out aggressively to challenge the Leaf shooters and cut down angles (something he's been doing much more this year). The problem is he can't be aggressive when there is someone standing alone in front of him...or 2 people.

malkinshair makes a good point about aggressiveness. As we all know, one of the key factors for a butterfly goalie to be successful is the ability to challenge the shooter and cut down the angles. Not only does Fleury sometimes not et to do that, but it seems that when he does challenge he plays it like he's expecting guys to always be open for a backdoor play.

I've said it several times over the years, but both Fleury and Vokoun look like goalies that have absolutely no faith in the team in front of them defensively, and that gets reflected in their own confidence and how they play.

malkinshair wrote:For someone that likes to 'drops knowledge' about how to tend goal, you seem to conveniently miss some of the important details.

The 2nd goal was a great shot taken after an uncontested cross-ice pass with MAF completely screened. The 3rd goal was weak, but so was the D in front of it. 4th goal nothing he could do. He also stoned Kessel on another uncontested cross-ice feed, made a great toe save that hurt my groin, and came out aggressively to challenge the Leaf shooters and cut down angles (something he's been doing much more this year). The problem is he can't be aggressive when there is someone standing alone in front of him...or 2 people.

So, depsite the fact that his pad had the short side covered, and JVR BARELY changed the direction, his stick movement was good form? He left a hole along the ice and leaked a goal. That is not an NHL goalie play. Basically, since you don't seem to know it, any goal along the ice in the NHL in 2013 is a goalie's mistake. Pekke Rinne is almost never beaten low.

You basically admit he gave up at least 1 softie, and possibly 2 in a game where he saw 24 shots against, and point to two good saves he was forced to make.

The fact is that he is consistently inconsistent. He always has been.

I am so tired of talking about how goaltending and defense are all melded together for a successful team. You and everyone on here want to absolve Fleury of all his sins because the D isn't great. I don't refute the fact that the D can be better, but continue to point out that great D is NOT possible with a leaky goalie WHICH FLEURY HAS BEEN along with Vokoun.

When you watch goals, they are either good goals or bad ones. It's not rocket science.

If you want to blame a forward who fails to clear a puck for a goal that the goalie should have stopped, then by all means go ahead. \

The difference between my view and yours is that I admit the D needs work but caution that the results will always be impacted by an inconsistent goalie. Most here want to flail about on the D and allow Fleury to make the same mistakes he's made since he entered the league.

If and when the Pens lose in the Playoffs, it will most likely be because their goalie gets outplayed again as he has in the last three elimination rounds.

I don't try to "drop knowledge" on you. You don't know what to do with it.

Last edited by The Snapshot on Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Snapshot wrote: Not a SINGLE person in Flyerland where I watched the game was laughing at Engelland.

This isn't the first time you've used the reactions of people at a bar in Philly as evidence towards your point. I'm not sure how that's supposed to work.

LOL! So, the Flyers fans are the barometer on how our goalie plays? Do they laugh at Bryzgalov and his space monkeys?

Lets trade Fleury to Philly for Bryzgalov!

Flyer fans also wouldn't know defense if it bit them in the ass.

I've only been at a bar in Philly to watch once, the other night so not sure what you mean....Fleury stunk, and yet you and everyone else wants to defend it. Fine with me.

My position is that the D can't improve when a goalie leaks goals. Yours is that he can't be blamed because the other team shoots pucks at him. If the Pens were the Devils from their heyday, Fleury's inconsistent goaltending would have killed them too.

malkinshair wrote:For someone that likes to 'drops knowledge' about how to tend goal, you seem to conveniently miss some of the important details.

The 2nd goal was a great shot taken after an uncontested cross-ice pass with MAF completely screened. The 3rd goal was weak, but so was the D in front of it. 4th goal nothing he could do. He also stoned Kessel on another uncontested cross-ice feed, made a great toe save that hurt my groin, and came out aggressively to challenge the Leaf shooters and cut down angles (something he's been doing much more this year). The problem is he can't be aggressive when there is someone standing alone in front of him...or 2 people.

So, depsite the fact that his pad had the short side covered, and JVR BARELY changed the direction, his stick movement was good form? He left a hole along the ice and leaked a goal. That is not an NHL goalie play. Basically, since you don't seem to know it, any goal along the ice in the NHL in 2013 is a goalie's mistake. Pekke Rinne is almost never beaten low.

You basically admit he gave up at least 1 softie, and possibly 2 in a game where he saw 24 shots against, and point to two good saves he was forced to make.

The fact is that he is consistently inconsistent. He always has been.

I am so tired of talking about how goaltending and defense are all melded together for a successful team. You and everyone on here want to absolve Fleury of all his sins because the D isn't great. I don't refute the fact that the D can be better, but continue to point out that great D is NOT possible with a leaky goalie WHICH FLEURY HAS BEEN along with Vokoun.

When you watch goals, they are either good goals or bad ones. It's not rocket science.

If you want to blame a forward who fails to clear a puck for a goal that the goalie should have stopped, then by all means go ahead. \

The difference between my view and yours is that I admit the D needs work but caution that the results will always be impacted by an inconsistent goalie. Most here want to flail about on the D and allow Fleury to make the same mistakes he's made since he entered the league.

If and when the Pens lose in the Playoffs, it will most likely be because their goalie gets outplayed again as he has in the last three elimination rounds.

I don't try to "drop knowledge" on you. You don't know what to do with it.

malkinshair wrote:For someone that likes to 'drops knowledge' about how to tend goal, you seem to conveniently miss some of the important details.

The 2nd goal was a great shot taken after an uncontested cross-ice pass with MAF completely screened. The 3rd goal was weak, but so was the D in front of it. 4th goal nothing he could do. He also stoned Kessel on another uncontested cross-ice feed, made a great toe save that hurt my groin, and came out aggressively to challenge the Leaf shooters and cut down angles (something he's been doing much more this year). The problem is he can't be aggressive when there is someone standing alone in front of him...or 2 people.

So, depsite the fact that his pad had the short side covered, and JVR BARELY changed the direction, his stick movement was good form? He left a hole along the ice and leaked a goal. That is not an NHL goalie play. Basically, since you don't seem to know it, any goal along the ice in the NHL in 2013 is a goalie's mistake. Pekke Rinne is almost never beaten low.

Just...wow. Any goal along the ice is the goalie's mistake? That just can't be any more wrong...seriously. I know what you're trying to say (that a goalie should always try to cover the low part of the net...especially a butterfly GT), but you can't make a blanket statement like that without looking at least a little......misinformed. The puck was 'barely' redirected, but it was redirected against the grain of the shot. Fleury's stick movement was good form...because he (at least IMO) was trying to use his stick to deflect the shot away from the unmarked JVR. In other words...yes he had the short side covered for the shot, but was not going to be able to control the rebound...and he had an unmarked man standing right in front of him. He was still in good position for the shot and the redirect. Maybe if JVR is marked, he doesn't feel the need to use his stick.

The Snapshot wrote:I am so tired of talking about how goaltending and defense are all melded together for a successful team. You and everyone on here want to absolve Fleury of all his sins because the D isn't great. I don't refute the fact that the D can be better, but continue to point out that great D is NOT possible with a leaky goalie WHICH FLEURY HAS BEEN along with Vokoun.

When you watch goals, they are either good goals or bad ones. It's not rocket science.

No one is absolving MAF of his 'sins' , but how can you say that great D is not possible with a leaky GT, but ignore the fact that tending goal is infinitely more difficult behind a leaky D? Let's call it 'degree of difficulty'. Could MAF have stopped that goal...yes. Would his chances of stopping that goal been better if JVR was covered or stick-checked...most definitely. MacArthur's goal was another great example. Was it a shot that MAF could/should have stopped...yes IMO. Was it a more difficult save attempt given that Mac walked off the boards and inside the FO circle before having time to toe-drag to change the shooting angle uncontested....absolutely.

A defense that insulates a GT makes his job easier. I'd say that over the past 5 years or so Fleury has bailed out his D many more times than he's let them down.

The Snapshot wrote:The difference between my view and yours is that I admit the D needs work but caution that the results will always be impacted by an inconsistent goalie. Most here want to flail about on the D and allow Fleury to make the same mistakes he's made since he entered the league.If and when the Pens lose in the Playoffs, it will most likely be because their goalie gets outplayed again as he has in the last three elimination rounds. I don't try to "drop knowledge" on you. You don't know what to do with it.

The difference between your view and mine is that you view goaltending in a vacuum. You think that because the shot stayed along the ice, it was Fleury's fault. You think that because you saw Rinne make that save like 100 times, Fleury should always make it too. It's just not that easy.

There are so many things that go into what makes a great goal, or a great save. You say it's not rocket science, but it kinda is. Direction and velocity of the shot...distance from goal of the shot...is the shooter contested...is the goalie screened...is he tired...is there another forward backside...can the goalie get out to challenge the shot...is the ice good...does he trust his D...can he control the rebound...if not, can he direct it away from danger...etc...etc...etc. And, sometimes most importantly...are you lucky?

I apologize for the 'drop knowledge' comment...it's just that you seem to condescend ever so slightly sometimes.