Okay, this guy was trying to convince me today that self belaying by using a clove hitch on a biner is safer, and more efficient than self belaying oneself with a grigri. What do you think? I personally wouldn't think about using the clove hitch if I had access to a grigri.

I wasn't aware that a clove hitch could be used for belaying. Do you mean Muenter hitch?

A muenter hitch is not necessarilly safer or more efficient. I find it tends to twist the rope more than a gri-gri but the advantage comes with belaying a second; where the muenter can be used upside down more easily than a gri-gri.

I used to solo AID climbs using a clove hitch on two locking biners attached to my harness. It works OK but a solo belay device of some sort is better. I use a Solo Aid device its not the best you can get but they are cheap and work well. For freeclimbing your going to have to spend a little more money if you want to climb hard routes. You might as well get the newest thing, I think its called Silent Partner. Self belay is a problem we have been trying to solve for a long time and this one is probably the best so far.

First, are you talking about a self belay for rapelling or for solo climbing. I would have to agree with Fiend, a clove hitch is an anchor knot and will not pass the rope easily unless loosened. Properly tied the locking bar does not allow the rope to run. A muenter hitch is used widely for this purpose and can be easily used in either direction. I have used a GriGri in this manner numerous times but prefer a simple backup using a prusik below the biner attached to the leg loop. I am speaking of self belay for rapelling, I do not do any solo climbing.

what the author was talking about the clove hitch sounds primitive. I am looking into the silent partner by wren sport. I read that you use a clove hitch to lace the rope through the device. There is an internal clutch that stops you when the rope goes through the device at more than 4 miles an hour. or when you fall. I heard that the worst thing is when you fall and grab the rope the rope will run through your hands for few feet and burn your hands. It cost $250-

Clove hitch can be used for solo climbing only. Some people us a chest harness some don't. Works fine, much cheaper than a SP, and unless all you do is solo then the 250 bucks is prob better spend on other things (but that is just my opinion). I would feel leery of using a gri-gri for soloing as if you get the cam jammed or stuck then you are screwed!! There is a procedure that I would probably dig up to modify a gri-gri to make it less likely that it will get into a position that the cam will jam. If anyone wants it then let me know. Of course it voids the warrenty.

Munter hitches are used for standard two person climbing (or rappeling, but that definetly twists the rope, the carabiner brake is better if you don't have an ATC with you), and good to know for a backup, but if you don't use it some then you can snarl the rope something fierce and the lockoff direction is opposite to a ATC, so that tends to confuse people when they first start to use it.

Why dont you guys use Prussiks??? They are safer than a Gri-Gri and and easier to feed slack out of than a Clove Hitch. I use 2 Prussiks, one is about 10in. long and the other is 12in long. By doing it this way you have redundancy and they are long enough that when you do fall the higher one doesnt catch on the lower and make it slide down the rope instead of locking up. Any ways its alot easier to unweight them and continue climbing in the event that you do fall. Try untiing a Clove Hitch after you fall on it....good luck

Oh my gosh, Compclimber, you're lucky I found this post before you ended up dead. (Next time post this sort of thing in the aid climbing section).

There is a very old and very famous story that you really should know about. Apologies to any historian in case I made a mistake, but I *believe* the story concerned Royal Robbins back in the 60's when he attempted to make the second ascent and first solo ascent of the West Face of the Leaning Tower, an A1 trade route nowadays, but back then, one of the world's hardest. He found out the hard way (it almost cost him his life) that when you take a lead fall on prusiks, they get melted by the rope to the point of failure! I believe this manner of rope soloing was known as the Bartlett method, and Royal proved beyond any reasonable doubt that this system was incredibly dangerous!

Oops. Stop presses.

I just blew the dust off of my copy of Robbins' Advanced Rockcraft. Not only does he advocate the use of the Barnett System (OK, I was at least close...) but he also talks about attaching himself to the rope while soloing using Jumars! Holy frig!

If you want to read about someone who died this way, then please click here.

It's a miracle Royal didn't die either (He really should have read my post before he made the first solo ascent of El Cap....sheesh)

OK, OK! Lemme start again.

Royal got away with using really dangerous solo belay systems because he was a better climber than you, compclimber! Don't do like Royal or you'll end up dead!

Seriously, there was some dude who did take a fall using the Barnett System, obviously sometime after Advanced Rockcraft was published in 1973, melted his prusiks, and nobody climbs that way anymore. So there.

Fiend - how in the HAIL did you get 102,560 Website Points (what on earth does that mean, by the way?) when you don't know that Pianomahnn is talking about a SELF belay, as in SOLO-ING, Hmmmmmm???? (Webmaster! Webmaster! I think you need to deduct 20,000 or so of Fiend's points for that one! LOL!

Kag - you actually "get it". Thank goodness.

Uh, OK Coach, you're safe with your last sentence. Might've had to deduct a couple points, but you seem to be catching on...

Brog, I've never used a Silent Partner but have seen it in use. It looks pretty good, but I prefer a gri-gri as I'll outline below.

Paulc - Gri-gris rock. See below.

MtD - I have your solution.

OK, guys, I'm not trying to be too much of a smart-ass here, cuz I really love you all and just want you to stay alive. That being said, I am amazed at how little everyone seems to know about solo climbing - honestly, it just ain't that hard or tricky or confusing.

First of all, always,

ALWAYS!!!

tie a backup knot no matter what device or system you use.

I've soloed using a Solo Aid, but not since I converted to a Gri-gri. And of course I am talking about aid climbing (Gri-gris are no good for free climbing unless you modify them, and at any rate, I have retired from free climbing...).

Yes Paul, there is a marginal chance that in a fall the handle could catch and open the gri-gri, but that's what your backup knot is for, right? Besides, a little bit of duct tape on the handle will solve the problem, eh?

Gri-gris are superior to Solo Aids (Soloists do not hold upside down falls and are therefore no good in my book) and clove hitches because they are smoother and faster, and can self-feed at slow aid climbing speed. They are also superb for lowering yourself off for penjis, which you obviously can't do with the devices above.

(I don't know about the Silent Partner, but I don't think you can. I choose the Gri-gri over the Silent Partner for that reason alone, plus the Gri-gri is much cheaper, plus I already owned one for the gym [do NOT tell anyone I have EVER climbed in a gym!!!!])

There is another excellent benefit of the Gri-gri, and that's if you fall.

This is called

The Body Hoist

You're dangling in space, and some unknown piece up there is holding you. Let's say you stick your jugs on and start jugging up, and THAT piece fails. This means that now you're going to take a second lead fall, but this time you will be falling on jugs!

And because I - Pass the Pitons Pete - am not Royal Robbins, I know that my jugs will cut the damn rope and I'll end up smushed at the base!

There is a better way to get up after a solo lead fall. There is ALWAYS a better way.

I've fallen: I am hanging in space by my Gri-gri. I construct a "body hoist" with a prusik knot, carabiner and pulley. I clip the prusik to the tight part of the rope above the Gri-gri, and pass the slack part of the rope below the Gri-gri through the pulley. I now have a Z-pulley system (It's like pronounced "zed", not "zee", eh?) which I can winch myself up on using a 2:1 mechanical advantage.

The jug goes on the end BELOW the Gri-Gri. So if the piece I'm jugging back up on blows and I take a second lead fall, I'm caught by the Gri-gri, not jugs. Much safer.

[That being said, in practice, I usually just use one jug and a footloop on the upper rope and dispense with the zed pulley. But at least if I fall, it's onto the Gri-gri.]

Rebelaying Your Solo Lead Rope with Prusiks

Now, for MtDenali's concern. Yes, it's true - when you get high above your lower belay station anchor, the weight of the rope will pull extra rope through your Gri-gri unbeknownst to you, thus putting unwanted slack between you and your lower station, thus setting you up for a longer fall!

Yikes!

Solve that problem by carrying a half dozen LONG prusiks (the loop is 24" long of 5mm cord - need about 5 or 6' of cord to make each prusik) and rebelaying your lead rope every 30' or so up the pitch using the prusik loop.

Attach the lead rope to a bomber piece every so often - this will hold up the weight of the rope and prevent it from sliding through the gri-gri.

Presumably there will be at least a few of you reading this post and nodding, "yeah, yeah! Damn, why didn't I think of that..." OK, it gets better: the benefit of rebelaying the rope is that if done properly, it ELIMATES ALL rope abrasion for ever and ever, amen.

Ya see, the rope is rebelayed every 30 feet. If you're cleaning a pitch that your partner led, the rope is obviously not rebelayed, and if it runs across an edge or roof 150' above you, every time you jug, it rubs that roof, and abrades the rope. Ouch. You can even die that way.

When you climb solo, you rebelay the rope to bomber pieces every so often, like right below a roof. So later when you're jugging your fixed lead rope to clean the pitch you just spent all day leading, your weight is taken by that rebelayed piece - and the prusik knot holds your weight!

Your weight isn't taken by the upper belay station, the rope isn't rubbing 150' above you - your weight is held by the prusik knot attached to the good piece. Clever, eh? Chongo taught me that one.

Now if you have adjusted the tension in the prusik knots properly while you were leading (this is an art and takes practice) the rope will be just a little bit slack above you.

Voila!

No abrasion where the rope runs over the lip. In fact, NO abrasion anywhere! Ever!

When I soloed the Trip this spring, I started with a brand new lead rope.

And when I finished the Trip, I finished with a brand new lead rope! This is because I properly rebelayed the rope with long prusiks, and eliminated ALL abrasion while cleaning!

Believe me, this system ROCKS!

Then I climbed the Sea with a partner. When I started, same brand new lead rope. When I finished, after we had jugged up that thing for 26 pitches the usual way with no rebelays, well, let's just say it don't look the same, mate. Go get yourself some long prusik loops, and practise this!

Knowing how to rebelay your solo lead rope with prusiks is FUNDAMENTAL to safe solo aid climbing, or solo free climbing for that matter.

Thanks for the info pete I had though about the prussiks melting before and kind of wrote it off...I dont really rope solo anyways. If you can solo it with a rope than you can free solo it alot faster....and in my oponion alot safer because your putting your trust in yourself not some manky gear.

I will say that nearly all of the bases were covered by that book. Very impressive. My comment involves the Silent Partner. This is an impressive device, but a little tricky. In the event of a fall, there is little worry about the rope burning your hands because as soon as the rope gets tight in a fall, you are going fast enough that it instantly locks up. The clove hitch that goes through the pulley does tighten substantially, but this tightening effect reduces the severity of a fall. In fact I took a twenty foot fall from less than thirty feet (with many back-ups) to build confidence in the device and understand how it catches and the arrest was so soft it felt like a dynamic belay. Always carry ascenders and prussiks because it took 15 minutes to loosen the clove hitch after the 20 footer. The tricky part is that since you can climb at four miles/hour (if that were possible) and rope would feed through with such little resistance, that it is very easy to have a substantial amount of slack. Since this point was covered so well above I will not elaborate. The device is wonderful for toproping because gravity reduces the amount of slack in the rope. Also, for sport climbing, when you pull slack to clip in, understand that after the clip the slack will still be there. This is particularly evident when climbing out a ceiling. To practice witht the device, I was climbing out a 15 foot high ceiling and for my last clip before going over the end I jerked slack, clipped in, and felt my fingers slipping. I looked at the slack I had jerked as well as the slack from the carabiner/rope drag and when I slipped, my feet slapped the ground. A reasonably close call, but a great lesson. Finally, one can lower with the device by making one wrap around the leg.

Admittedly I'm just a climber. I couldn't give jack about gadgets, rope soloing and aiding.

At the time I didn't know that Chris (pianomahnn) was not a beginner climber and thought that he may have possibly been a new climber who just didn't know the difference between a muenter and a clove hitch. I've seen enough bad belaying out at the crags that someone trying to belay off a clove hitch wouldn't surprise me.

I think the reason that people don't know about rope soloing is that they just haven't done much of it before. That would be why they're posting here, to get more info.

fiend: Admittedly I'm just a climber. I couldn't give jack about gadgets, rope soloing and aiding.

dont be so closed minded. you might learns some rope handling skills. could save your life if you ever ventured outside a gym.

passthepitonspete:Fiend - how in the HAIL did you get 102,560 Website Points (what on earth does that mean, by the way?) when you don't know that Pianomahnn is talking about a SELF belay, as in SOLO-ING, Hmmmmmm???? (Webmaster! Webmaster! I think you need to deduct 20,000 or so of Fiend's points for that one! LOL!

i was thinking the same.

passthepitonspete:(stuff about rebelaying your rope when rope soloing or attaching it to a bomber piece every so often) Damn, why didn't I think of that..." Ok, it gets better:

and it gets worse. the reason people dont employ your idea is because its extremely dangerous. everytime you rebelay the rope you immediately move into extremely high fall factor territory again. the kind of forces that can rip or brake gear. the good thing about having a lot of rope out is to have more rope to absorb your fall. there are several safer methods for keeping slack from pulling through your gri gri when rope soloing that wont increase your fall factor. like tying an 8 on a bite immediately above your pro so the knot hangs up on the biner and holds the weight of the rope. if you fall the full rope will absorb the forces. even better tie a loose half hitch above the pro so that it holds the weight of the rope but when you fall the knot will untie so that your rope isnt weakend by several knots in the middle (knots weaken any rope or webbing). or use a prusik made out of a weak piece of 1mm cord rather than the 5mm cord as you suggested and tie it onto your rope and connect it to your pro. that way if you fall the prusik will break and your fall factor will be low because the full length of the rope will be available to absorb your fall.

if you dont stay alive while climbing the pitch what happens to the rope when you jug wont be important.

newbieclimber? mememe? zoostation? why do all of these users post off the same IP? I wonder?

Hey newbieclimber, why don't you say hi to me next time you see me climbing, as you must obviously know me. How else could you make a judgement on my climbing experience? Do us a favor, get off your computer. Does it make you feel big and tough to anonymously pick apart people's opinions and mistakes? Do you suffer from some sort of attention deficit? or are you related to koolkitty?

I look forward to the day I meet you at the crags, then maybe you can earn the right to judge me.

Quote:and it gets worse. the reason people dont employ your idea is because its extremely dangerous. everytime you rebelay the rope you immediately move into extremely high fall factor territory again. the kind of forces that can rip or brake (sic) break gear. the good thing about having a lot of rope out is to have more rope to absorb your fall.

Uh, yea.

Newbie, please re-read my post. I said, "take LONG prusik slings." I am absolutely aware of fall factors and making sure there is enough rope to catch my fall, that is precisely why I said LONG prusiks. I'm not attaching a short prusik sling directly to a piton as you might be imagining (which would indeed increase the fall factor), rather I am putting the extra long prusik on the end of a shoulder length runner, so the total amount of potential stretch is in the nieghbourhood of about ten feet (runner at 3' plus prusik at 2' = 5')

If I fall, the rope will have to stretch ten feet before it starts to pull upwards on the piece I have prusiked. I'm very aware of that, though I didn't precisely mention it. That's part of the "art" that I did mention.

Quote:there are several safer methods for keeping slack from pulling through your gri gri when rope soloing that wont increase your fall factor. like tying an 8 on a bite (sic) immediately above your pro so the knot hangs up on the biner and holds the weight of the rope.

Sure, that would work.

But there are two problems with that - first you have weakened your rope by putting a bight into it, and secondly, you have to untie the damn knot after you've fallen (good luck) You should always use an alpine butterfly knot in that situation as it is easy to undo.

But with a LONG prusik, you don't NEED to do that.

Quote:if you fall the full rope will absorb the forces.

Of course it will. That's the idea.

Quote:even better tie a loose half hitch above the pro so that it holds the weight of the rope but when you fall the knot will untie so that your rope isnt weakend (sic) by several knots in the middle (knots weaken any rope or webbing).

Hmm, so a slipknot above the pro, eh. Fine while you're leading, don't think I'd like to be jugging on it, though.

Quote:or use a prusik made out of a weak piece of 1mm cord rather than the 5mm cord as you suggested and tie it onto your rope and connect it to your pro.

Hell no! The benefit is the rebelaying which eliminates the rope abrasion! You need a strong enough prusik loop that will support your weight when jugging while you clean.

Quote:that way if you fall the prusik will break and your fall factor will be low because the full length of the rope will be available to absorb your fall.

if you dont stay alive while climbing the pitch what happens to the rope when you jug wont be important.

Well, good point. Thing is, if you use a long prusik on a shoulder length sling or whatever, you've got plenty of play, and if you do it correctly, you will get zero rope abrasion.

I use the prusik because it doesn't put a knot in the rope like a clove hitch would, and it gives you that extra length too.

Newbie, that was some pretty impressive brainstorming, and despite you being wrong, I like your way of thinking. Well, maybe "wrong" isn't the correct term to use, but you didn't come up with the best answer.

Now, do you understand what I mean about how the long prusiks on a sling will allow the rope to stretch upwards in the event of a fall and not increase your fall factor??

Cheers, Pete

P.S. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but I have soloed a fair number of big walls, and this system is tried, tested, and truly %!#@#in'. In fact, it's The $#!&.

Hello all This forum has evolved nicely..lol Hats off to PassthePitons, your detailed posts are are very informative and well appreciated, Please keep the good work. I was (however) and still am, little confused about your z-pully system for jugging the rope after a fall. If the jumar is below your gri gri how does it move up the rope, and where do you attach your pully & aider(s)? Having done a handfull of bigwalls, all with a partner, and having attemped to solo the Prodigal Sun with no avail (due to testicular shrinkage) and rock fall, I would like to pose a question for you. WHen ahauling the bag during a solo ascent, whats the best way to unwieght the pig to unclip itfrom the anchors when the route drifts diagonaly? Tention on the haul rope does'nt do the trick. Is there an easier way???

Ah, Nabisco, I apologize for my somewhat tardy response. I was manufacturing phony ascents in my El Cap section so you would all believe I know what I'm talking about.

I believe I did answer the question about re-ascending after a fall, but I will try again. Perhaps if I put in more paragraphs it will be easier to understand. Pass the Pitons Pete can only think in three dimensions after his second cup of coffee.

OK, may I assume you understand why, after a fall, it is not a great idea to clip jugs to the rope, in case the piece that's holding you rips, and you take a lead fall held by jugs, right?

Therefore, it would be a good idea to find a way to regain your high point without putting jugs on the rope. You are also soloing using a Gri-gri, so now you hang in space, attached to your lead rope with your Gri-gri.

How to Operate the Body Hoist

To ascend to your high point you will require the following items: a prusik loop or ascender, a carabiner, a pulley, an ascender, an aider.

1. Put the prusik loop around the tight rope from which you are hanging. Push it up to arms' length. It is better to use a shorter prusik loop here. (I say "prusik", but technically a Bachmann(?) knot is better, you know, wrap it around four or five times and put the end through)

1a. The prusik loop could be replaced by a second ascender, by the way.

2. Attach a carabiner to the prusik/ascender.

3. Attach the pulley to the carabiner.

3b. The pulley can be omitted by, but you will have to overcome a bit more friction.

4. Take the free end of the rope, and put it through the pulley, or just through the carabiner if you have omitted the pulley. The rope now forms a "zed"

5. Put your other ascender (with aider attached) on the free end of the rope that is coming through the pulley.

6. Crank down down on the free end of the rope with your ascender/aider.

7. You will now slide the rope through the Gri-gri, and "slide yourself up the rope" with a 2:1 mechanical advantage. You can almost do it with just your hands, it's so easy!

8. Slide the prusik/crab/pulley assembly up the tight part of the rope, and repeat.

NOTE: This operation is best performed when the prusik/crab/pulley assembly is as small as possible.

I would use a prusik loop on the tight part of the rope only when I was really afraid of the piece I was now jugging back up on pulling out. If I wasn't too worried, I would use an ascender.

If using an ascender, again keep the assembly as small as you can.

If the assembly is too "long", you can't push it up the rope high enough.

9. Cut and paste this post into your computer, print it off, laminate it with Map Seal, put duct tape on the back, punch a hole in the bottom and attach a clip-in loop, and attach it to your harness. This way, when you find yourself dangling in space after a solo leader fall, you can refer to these instructions!

wish i could fullfill your prescription, LOL. OK I get it, however I have one LAST question. If you replaced the prusik w/ an ascender.

dr. piton says: 1a. The prusik loop could be replaced by a second ascender, by the way.

would'nt you defeat the whole purpose of setting up such an elaborate pully system. THe Ascender could take the fall if a piece pulls as you begin "to slide up the rope" Or am I missing the obvious. BTW thanks for the munter mule beta thats such an awesome idea. Don't know if the viagra will do the trick, my soloing days are over, I like to share the pain w/ others. I cringe at the though of all that lonely work. Have you done the shield? THink thats my next undertaking, if I can find a climbing partner. I'm a stranger in a strange land. Anyways, cheers for the tricks of the trade. later

Buy me a plane ticket and I'd be happy to climb with you on the Shield any time!

Haven't done it, need to, hear it's classic. Yes, you are quite right that using a second ascender instead of a prusik can defeat the purpose. The purpose being that if the piece you're jugging on blows, you fall only on a Gri=gri and a prusik.

OK, two points - I would use the ascender instead of the prusik if I knew the piece I was on was quite good.

Second, I would usually use the ascender, even if the piece MIGHT blow, because I would be careful. It's true that I'm standing up on one jug, but this jug is on the free end of the rope. Let's say the piece I'm on blows, well, MOST (but admittedly not all) of my weight is on the Gri-Gri. If I'm falling, I'm not going to be standing on the sling on my jug, I'm going to be falling and land on my Gri-gri.

Now, this isn't perfect, and if I were really worried about another whipper, I'd use the prusik for sure. The few times I've lobbed (Note: Pass the Pitons Pete does NOT backclean because Pass the Pitons Pete is a chickenshit, ergo: Pass the Pitons Pete seldom falls and IF he does fall, it isn't too long....oh, except the 20 footer I took on ZM last time -see my trip report - but I used a jug instead of a prusik then anyway...)

Anyway, the few times I've lobbed, I've always used the ascender instead of the prusik.

I told you the BEST way, then I told you an acceptable shortcut.

Mostly, Dr. Piton is satisfied that you are paying attention, and that you are catching the subtle nuances of my "trick questions".

PTPPete must have the fastest fingers in the west... or east or wherever. I think I can say with great confidence that he is definitely the expert on this subject here at RC.com.

"newbieclimber"??? Your ranting and attacks are very similar to those I've seen in the past from others... Hmm... Show some respect to get some respect.

Personally, I am not even an aid climber. I stick mostly to trad and that always with a partner. Still, I've found out a lot that I did not know about rope soloing. However, it is all jumbled together and very confusing. Right now, I would like each of you to sell all of your posessions and move to the hills to become hermits. (This includes selling off or giving away your computers...)

Goodness, what is this dude smoking? A clove hitch is one of the ancient knot master's most impressive inventions, but if I had a grigri I would use it, and if I didn't have one I would self belay with a french Prusik or Machard self locking knot before i'd use a clove hitch & biner. Just personal preference maybe...everyone has the right to his opinion...