i wasn't saying he was a good trainer... where did i say he was a good trainer i was saying he was a good rider

The guy is hanging his shingle out as a trainer/clinician and you say he is a good rider. That may be true, but that doesn't mean he is a good trainer. Two different classes in my opinion. The thread was about Pat Or Clint, who are clinicians calling themselves trainers, then you add Guy McLean...just putting two and two together, it's simple addition not calculus...

There are other great clinician trainers that don't have a big name, nor will ever really be"out there" as much as PP, CA, or others, but are 10 times the horsemen. Take Ty Heth for example. He does a few clinics here and there, but he is still training horses one on one for the public, and not with a camera strapped to his hat brim to try and prove something..

~Started young horses in Bosca te Ador, unto the two rein the old Spanish spade, brought them along with two hands that were gentle. Some fine reining horses as ever were made~

I have never been attracted to either of these trainers, or most any big name trainer, because just watching a DVD or a clinic from a bleacher seat just doesn't work for me. My learning style requires that I have a trainer standing in the middle of the arena yelling every bit of my faults straight into my ear, because I thrive with correction the second I make an error. I'm an "in the moment" learner, ha ha. I'm at this weird place where I have enough raw horse experience, but need fine tuning, if that makes sense... 'educational videos' are usually more of a confirmation of my knowledge than anything else, kind of a shape put to what I figured out or noticed on my own.
It doesn't really matter who the trainer is, watching a DVD series just doesn't appeal to me as a way to learn- they do not/ cannot take into account the fact that horses and people are individuals who learn and react differently. You can go through the exact motions that you see on the DVD, but how will you know for sure that you are doing it correctly? It's like learning how to do a proper push up from the internet. You can make it look like a push up, but that doesn't mean it's actually a push up. What if your horse doesn't respond well to what you're doing? How will you know if it's you or the horse? Is your horse disrespecting you, or are they genuinely puzzled? This is really just how I learn, but if a trainer is not handy (which was the case for pretty much all of my life and even now, my lessons are quite erratic due to lack of funds and time) I have found that any help I have ever needed either came from my horses' not so subtle queues/ trial and error experience, watching 3 minute youtube videos to point me in the general direction, or just reading. I have never, ever, felt the need to adhere to a specific training program, especially one as general as the ones from the BNTs.
My sister is getting into Parelli, and she has been adamantly trying to show me videos and convince me that he's worth while, to no avail. The more I watch, the more put off I am- not only by the fact that 90% is purely for marketing purposes and to make him look like the Second Coming of the horse world, or that most of it is fluff and games, but that most of the stuff he does is unnecessary in my opinion and not as effective as other methods I have encountered. (I'm sorry, OP and other Parelli fans, but I really just don't like what I see at all, trainer or horseman... Just my honest opinion.)
And if anyone has had success with either Pat or Clint, I'm happy for you, it's good that you found a method that works for both you and your horse. I just personally don't like either much.
I do like a lot more of what I see from Buck Branaman, though. Not enough to follow him religiously, I don't think there's anyone I care to follow, but I do like him. I like him as a person, a rider, and a trainer. He has much less marketing fluff, he seems to be in it to train people and horses, and that's what I like to see. I'm really not knowledgeable on many trainers, so I really don't have much else to contribute, sorry!

It doesn't really matter who the trainer is, watching a DVD series just doesn't appeal to me as a way to learn- they do not/ cannot take into account the fact that horses and people are individuals who learn and react differently. You can go through the exact motions that you see on the DVD, but how will you know for sure that you are doing it correctly? It's like learning how to do a proper push up from the internet. You can make it look like a push up, but that doesn't mean it's actually a push up. What if your horse doesn't respond well to what you're doing? How will you know if it's you or the horse? Is your horse disrespecting you, or are they genuinely puzzled?

^^THIS. So much.

That is actually an argument I use for Caesar Milan and the like .

“Thoroughbreds are the best. They’re lighter, quicker and more
intelligent. The best of any breed is the Thoroughbred horse, the best
of that breed is better than any other breed." - George Morris

I have watched PP since he started coming to the US in the early 80's. He was all "buy my stuff" then as is now. A lot of stuff, not so much substance.

I have seen CA since he was about 12. At least that's what he looked like. Very early on, in other words. Will never forget him saying that, regardless of what ANY other trainer tells you, the fact of the matter is, that horses only learn as a result of pain. I KID you Not!

I am pretty sure that over the years, he found that to be not such a good thing to tell most horse owners, as you won't hear him say it now. But I know that is what is underneath his act.

I have also observed both PP and CA trainers and not been impressed with any of them.

Conclusion: I would never let either one of them (or their wannabe's) touch one of my horses.

Recommendation: For a breath of fresh air and someone who is the Real Deal - more about true horsemanship and not himself - try Mark Rashid. His books are awesome! He doesn't have a ton of dvd's because he's just not into the whole Buy-my-crap machine. If you are lucky enough to audit a clinic, you'll be amazed at what you have learned. Start out with "Consider the Horse" and let yourself enjoy what horsemanship should be all about.

IMHO (Also, I have no connection to Mark Rashid other than being a grateful follower.)

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