And whom do you think the Catholic Church used to convert. persecute heretics/pagans? The pope's armies? No. The secular arm. It happened in the east in the same way. The Russian Church persecuted/killed some Judaizer heretics then many of those opposed to Niokon's reforms. Shed the fundamentalist habits. Come on.

Unlike the Church in the East, the Vatican DID have armies, including all those military "monastic" orders like the Knights Templars and the Teutonic Knights.

Precisely, and don't forget it was the Pope who called the Crusades. Also, I'd be willing to bet that the Conquistadors and Inquisition had the full blessing of their Bishops/Cardinals (maybe even the Pope) to do what they did.

Did the Patriarch ever call for mass murder of tens of thousands? Or for forced conversions? Did the Patriarchs ever establish entire armies dedicated to waging earthly war? They they ever call Jihads/Holy Wars?

To Xenia1918:You say at the bottom of your post:"Real Roman Catholicism: http://www.traditio.com "But who are the priests at Traditio? Who is Father Morrison, who is known as Father Moderator? Is he a validly ordained Catholic priest, or just a layman?

Yes, he is a validly ordained Roman Catholic priest.

But if you don't like the concept of independent Roman Catholic priests, you can also check out:

Have you ever compared the Novus Ordo to the Protestant Lutheran Liturgy of 1904?

Specifically, what do you have against the Lutheran liturgy and why do you think it is defective ? Also, don't Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox have comparable views on the place of the Pope of Rome in the Church?

Have you ever compared the Novus Ordo to the Protestant Lutheran Liturgy of 1904?

Specifically, what do you have against the Lutheran liturgy and why do you think it is defective ? Also, don't Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox have comparable views on the place of the Pope of Rome in the Church?

Lol, yes, so therefore since we agree on the fact that the papacy is not authoritative, we should totally be best friends forever, since the entire Christian faith centers around whether one accepts or rejects the papacy.

Perhaps you should reword the Nicene Creed (the Roman Catholics should not object, since they are already familiar with this practice) to have an extra line:

I believe in the Pope, Vicar of the Father upon Earth, who was ordained by Christ through Peter,And in one God, the Father Almighty...

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 09:58:07 PM by Cavaradossi »

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Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Lol, yes, so therefore since we agree on the fact that the papacy is not authoritative, we should totally be best friends forever, since the entire Christian faith centers around whether one accepts or rejects the papacy.

My thoughts exactly. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't generally work out too well in the secular world, so why on earth would anyone want to put forth that this is how churches should relate to one another? It puts our relations on a much more adversarial trajectory than is befitting any group of self-professed Christians.

Not to mention this whole "Pope as the center of the universe" idea looks pretty strange to the Christians whose see had the first Pope, in the See of St. Mark in Alexandria. The Romans took up the title later, and the associated privileges and prerogatives that they now claim by virtue of it much later.

So everyone agrees that the only reason for the first Crusade was the appeal by the Orthodox emperor Alexios I. The Orthodox emperor was the one who started the whole thing when he asked Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist the Muslims who were invading the Byzantine Empire.

So that's it? The conversation is over with the START of the crusades, without touching (for instance) the fourth crusade and the sacking of Constantinople? That's pretty weak, even for the internet.

You might as well be saying that the East asked for it because she dressed provocatively, what with all her beautiful churches and relics and whatnot. Is that a good lesson for how to deal with the Romans? If you don't want us to run roughshod over your civilizations, don't even talk to us? Sick.

So everyone agrees that the only reason for the first Crusade was the appeal by the Orthodox emperor Alexios I. The Orthodox emperor was the one who started the whole thing when he asked Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist the Muslims who were invading the Byzantine Empire.

And that totally justifies the sacking of Constantinople in 1204. If only we didn't have all of that nice loot, the Venetians would have played nice.

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Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

I thought that the First Crusade was called because the Orthodox emperor Alexios I asked Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist the Muslims who were invading the Byzantine Empire.

you thought wrong. Your supreme pontiff Gregory VII promoted the idea in 1074, before Alexis took the throne.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

So everyone agrees that the only reason for the first Crusade was the appeal by the Orthodox emperor Alexios I. The Orthodox emperor was the one who started the whole thing when he asked Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist the Muslims who were invading the Byzantine Empire.

Have you ever compared the Novus Ordo to the Protestant Lutheran Liturgy of 1904?

Specifically, what do you have against the Lutheran liturgy and why do you think it is defective ? Also, don't Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox have comparable views on the place of the Pope of Rome in the Church?

LOL. No. For one thing, the Lutheran Catechism doesn't deal with the pope of rome (nor need it), and in Orthodoxy he's not any different from any other patriarch, or rather schismatic/heretical patriarch to be precise.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

To Xenia1918:You say at the bottom of your post:"Real Roman Catholicism: http://www.traditio.com "But who are the priests at Traditio? Who is Father Morrison, who is known as Father Moderator? Is he a validly ordained Catholic priest, or just a layman?

Yes, he is a validly ordained Roman Catholic priest.

But if you don't like the concept of independent Roman Catholic priests, you can also check out:

I don't know, since I don't know him personally. Why not write to him and find out?

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

To Xenia1918:You say at the bottom of your post:"Real Roman Catholicism: http://www.traditio.com "But who are the priests at Traditio? Who is Father Morrison, who is known as Father Moderator? Is he a validly ordained Catholic priest, or just a layman?

Yes, he is a validly ordained Roman Catholic priest.

But if you don't like the concept of independent Roman Catholic priests, you can also check out:

I don't know, since I don't know him personally. Why not write to him and find out?

There is a question concerning his ordination and there are questions about whether or not he is validly ordained. He does not answer questions on this point., Every validly ordained priest will let you know who ordained him and where this ordination took place. He will not answer that question.

Have you ever compared the Novus Ordo to the Protestant Lutheran Liturgy of 1904?

Specifically, what do you have against the Lutheran liturgy and why do you think it is defective ? Also, don't Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox have comparable views on the place of the Pope of Rome in the Church?

LOL. No. For one thing, the Lutheran Catechism doesn't deal with the pope of rome (nor need it), and in Orthodoxy he's not any different from any other patriarch, or rather schismatic/heretical patriarch to be precise.

I thought that Orthodoxy considered him to be an unbaptised layperson.

Have you ever compared the Novus Ordo to the Protestant Lutheran Liturgy of 1904?

Specifically, what do you have against the Lutheran liturgy and why do you think it is defective ? Also, don't Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox have comparable views on the place of the Pope of Rome in the Church?

LOL. No. For one thing, the Lutheran Catechism doesn't deal with the pope of rome (nor need it), and in Orthodoxy he's not any different from any other patriarch, or rather schismatic/heretical patriarch to be precise.

I thought that Orthodoxy considered him to be an unbaptised layperson.

Unbaptized layman, no. Unbaptized pagan? Yes.

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Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

I thought that the First Crusade was called because the Orthodox emperor Alexios I asked Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist the Muslims who were invading the Byzantine Empire.

you thought wrong. Your supreme pontiff Gregory VII promoted the idea in 1074, before Alexis took the throne.

Gregory did nothing more than to show his love and compassion for the Orthodox Christians who were being overrun:"Gregory, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to all who are willing to defend the Christian faith, greeting and apostolic benediction.

We hereby inform you that the bearer of this letter, on his recent return from across the sea [from Palestine], came to Rome to visit us. He repeated what we had heard from many others, that a pagan race had overcome the Christians (Greeks) and with horrible cruelty had devastated everything almost to the walls of Constantinople, and were now governing the conquered lands with tyrannical violence, and that they had slain many thousands of Christians as if they were but sheep. If we love God and wish to be recognized as Christians, we should be filled with grief at the misfortune of this great empire [the Greek] and the murder of so many Christians (Greeks). But simply to grieve is not our whole duty. The example of our Redeemer and the bond of fraternal love demand that we should lay down our lives to liberate them. "Because he has laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren," [1 John 3:16]. Know, therefore, that we are trusting in the mercy of God and in the power of his might and that we are striving in all possible ways and making preparations to render aid to the Christian empire [the Greek] as quickly as possible. Therefore we beseech you by the faith in which you are united through Christ in the adoption of the sons of God, and by the authority of St. Peter, prince of apostles, we admonish you that you be moved to proper compassion by the wounds and blood of your brethren and the danger of the aforesaid empire and that, for the sake of Christ, you undertake the difficult task of bearing aid to your brethren [the Greeks]. "

Nothing happened until the Orthodox emperor Alexios begged the Pope of Rome, Urban II, to send in an army to help him. The Pope, having mercy and sympathy and great affection and love for the Orthodox people of the Byzantine empire, went way out of his way to send Roman Catholic soldiers to die for the Orthodox of the Byzantine empire at the request of the Byzantine Orthodox emperor Alexios.

To Xenia1918:You say at the bottom of your post:"Real Roman Catholicism: http://www.traditio.com "But who are the priests at Traditio? Who is Father Morrison, who is known as Father Moderator? Is he a validly ordained Catholic priest, or just a layman?

Yes, he is a validly ordained Roman Catholic priest.

But if you don't like the concept of independent Roman Catholic priests, you can also check out:

I don't know, since I don't know him personally. Why not write to him and find out?

There is a question concerning his ordination and there are questions about whether or not he is validly ordained. He does not answer questions on this point., Every validly ordained priest will let you know who ordained him and where this ordination took place. He will not answer that question.

I really don't know much about him or his situation; I'd been told he was validly ordained, but that he is not running the site anymore, someone else is now. I linked to the site because I find it a useful compendium of Traditional Roman Catholic info and Mass locations worldwide, no other reason. But I've since found one that is almost as good, hence I changed it on my signature line.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 11:40:35 PM by Xenia1918 »

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

To Xenia1918:You say at the bottom of your post:"Real Roman Catholicism: http://www.traditio.com "But who are the priests at Traditio? Who is Father Morrison, who is known as Father Moderator? Is he a validly ordained Catholic priest, or just a layman?

Yes, he is a validly ordained Roman Catholic priest.

But if you don't like the concept of independent Roman Catholic priests, you can also check out:

I don't know, since I don't know him personally. Why not write to him and find out?

There is a question concerning his ordination and there are questions about whether or not he is validly ordained. He does not answer questions on this point., Every validly ordained priest will let you know who ordained him and where this ordination took place. He will not answer that question.

I really don't know anything about him or his situation; I linked to the site because I find it a useful compendium of Traditional Roman Catholic info and Mass locations worldwide, no other reason. But I've since found one that is almost as good, hence I changed it on my signature line.

To Xenia1918:You say at the bottom of your post:"Real Roman Catholicism: http://www.traditio.com "But who are the priests at Traditio? Who is Father Morrison, who is known as Father Moderator? Is he a validly ordained Catholic priest, or just a layman?

Yes, he is a validly ordained Roman Catholic priest.

But if you don't like the concept of independent Roman Catholic priests, you can also check out:

I don't know, since I don't know him personally. Why not write to him and find out?

There is a question concerning his ordination and there are questions about whether or not he is validly ordained. He does not answer questions on this point., Every validly ordained priest will let you know who ordained him and where this ordination took place. He will not answer that question.

I really don't know anything about him or his situation; I linked to the site because I find it a useful compendium of Traditional Roman Catholic info and Mass locations worldwide, no other reason. But I've since found one that is almost as good, hence I changed it on my signature line.

But you said that he was a validly ordained RC priest, didn't you?

I was told he was validly ordained. As I said, I only went by that. I didn't link to the site because of him: I linked because of the information on the site, esp. the Directory of Traditional Latin Masses worldwide.

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

Seeing as how it hastened the fall of the Byzantine empire to the Muslims, I'd say it affected a great many Eastern Orthodox personally! You try having your children taken away as janissaries, your churches turned into mosques, and your people massacred and see how you feel about the people who helped make it all possible.

I love how so many Eastern Orthodox gripe about the sacking of Constantinople as if it affects them personally.

Somewhat like how Catholics gripe about the Orthodox Church containing the full Truth of Christianity as if it affected them personally. Interestingly, both complaints are quite similar, since what is being complained about is factual in both cases.

Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

And whom do you think the Catholic Church used to convert. persecute heretics/pagans? The pope's armies? No. The secular arm. It happened in the east in the same way. The Russian Church persecuted/killed some Judaizer heretics then many of those opposed to Niokon's reforms. Shed the fundamentalist habits. Come on.

Unlike the Church in the East, the Vatican DID have armies, including all those military "monastic" orders like the Knights Templars and the Teutonic Knights.

Precisely, and don't forget it was the Pope who called the Crusades. Also, I'd be willing to bet that the Conquistadors and Inquisition had the full blessing of their Bishops/Cardinals (maybe even the Pope) to do what they did.

Did the Patriarch ever call for mass murder of tens of thousands? Or for forced conversions? Did the Patriarchs ever establish entire armies dedicated to waging earthly war? They they ever call Jihads/Holy Wars?

What in the world is wrong with you?

We raised those armies to save the Greeks. Now you wish us to recant, to apologize for pushing back when the Islamic war machine was knocking on the door? In 200 years they drove to Marseilles. Spain, Carthage, Egypt, Syria, the Holy Land, all fallen under the sway of their perversion of the Christian religion. You would have us renounce the act of having defended Christianity for the sake of the Greek churches?

You are fooling yourself if you think the great city of Constantinople would have held out until AD 1453 without the counterattack from the West.

Stop believing the lies that non-Christians have spread.

P.S. Yes, the Franks and the Venetians sacked the great city. I truly ask for forgiveness. My ancestors in faith and kin, and thus our sin. Would it have lasted until AD 1204 without the Crusades? Doubtful. Did the Western soldiers commit atrocities in the name of Holy War? Yes, they did. I beg forgiveness for that too.

But do not forget that without them the East, and the West, would have been overrun by Islam.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 02:36:39 AM by WetCatechumen »

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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence

I love how so many Eastern Orthodox gripe about the sacking of Constantinople as if it affects them personally.

We mourn for our mothers and fathers in the Holy Faith who lost their lives.

Do you like the Novus Ordo, Wyatt?Have you seen a copy of the Lutheran Hymnal of 1904?

I have no complaints about the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. To my knowledge I have not seen that hymnal, but I did attend a Lutheran school for three years as a child, so I know that there are similarities between Lutheran services and the Roman Mass. That always made sense to me though since the Lutherans broke away from us. I just assumed that the similarities were due to their liturgy largely being based on ours.....with modifications, of course, so it would jive with Martin Luther's theology.

I love how so many Eastern Orthodox gripe about the sacking of Constantinople as if it affects them personally.

Somewhat like how Catholics gripe about the Orthodox Church containing the full Truth of Christianity as if it affected them personally. Interestingly, both complaints are quite similar, since what is being complained about is factual in both cases.

I never gripe about the Eastern Orthodox Church. I sometimes gripe about the actions of some individuals who happen to be Eastern Orthodox, but that's different.

I love how so many Eastern Orthodox gripe about the sacking of Constantinople as if it affects them personally.

I take your point, but spare a thought for us Greeks: arguably, my family would still be living within the walls of the Imperial City, were the strength of the Empire not shattered by the Latin crusaders.

I love how so many Eastern Orthodox gripe about the sacking of Constantinople as if it affects them personally.

Somewhat like how Catholics gripe about the Orthodox Church containing the full Truth of Christianity as if it affected them personally. Interestingly, both complaints are quite similar, since what is being complained about is factual in both cases.

When do we gripe about whatever you do? Ive never seen the animosity towards whatever subject is at hand on Catholic boards even on the traditional boards; while Orthodox are just like the mobs in London right now. Spiteful, venomous, angry. Just like Christ told us to be huh? That unclean spirit seems to be all over. Your practice is Pharisaical. The sack comes up every other post as if you are trying to fuel the anger. You constantly fail to mention the riots in 1182or4 which claimed the lives of some 50,000 Latin Catholics and the fact that you yourselves conspired with the mohammedans to get rid of the crusaders. Well then that would be somewhat fair and not obtusely polemic. Your unwillingness to let this go(even though it didnt even happen to YOU or your DAD, or great granddad's granddad....) is in direct contradiction to the mandate set down by Christ himself. Seriously you have the mindset of muslims. No wonder you were left to them.

I love how so many Eastern Orthodox gripe about the sacking of Constantinople as if it affects them personally.

I take your point, but spare a thought for us Greeks: arguably, my family would still be living within the walls of the Imperial City, were the strength of the Empire not shattered by the Latin crusaders.

It is a little more understandable if your family can trace their roots back to Constantinople, but for people who are converts to Eastern Orthodoxy rather than belonging to an Orthodox family, it doesn't make much sense when they get all bent out of shape about the sacking of Constantinople as if it is personal for them. Although, to be fair, it isn't really personal for people who can trace their lineage back. It is about as absurd as having to make reparations for slavery in this day and age when no one even remembers slavery.

Numbers don't give a church more legitimacy, especially when those numbers were gained through violence.

Really?

I see we're back to the Soviet-Orthodox...and all other peace-filled easterners over the millennial range.

Never a cross-word to anyone. No forced conversions...nah...nevah!!!

I never said we never committed forced conversions. But we've never done it to the level the Roman Catholic Church has. In my opinion, the Roman Catholic Church, especially due to it's interaction with Muslims, probably had the Muslim concept of Jihad injected into it somehow. When you look at the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the Conquistadors, it is pretty easy to see that forced conversion was a major part of the Roman Catholic Church.

There are several quotes by Orthodox Christians who held pretty high rank in society, and I think they sum up the general Orthodox attitude...

"Let the Muslim be my material leader, rather than the Latin my spiritual master." - Patriarch Michael III of Anchialos, 12th Century

"Better my brother's empire should perish, than the unity of the Orthodox faith." - Emperor Michael's sister, after the False Council of Lyons.

"better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!" - Grand Duke Luke Notaris, just before the fall of Constantinople.

Lets also not forget that the Russians also chose to submit to the Mongols rather than be taken over by the Teutons.

Sure, the Orthodox have had forced conversions, but that hasn't played a major part in our history. But the vast majority of the Roman Catholic Church's adherents are descendants of people who were forcibly converted. And such violence played a very major part in the Roman Catholic Church's history from just after the schism to modern times.

Odd that EM doesn't know that. Why, just a while ago she was telling us how Lourdes at the time of Bernadette was still in the shadow of the Huguenots, (which the Vatican had exterminated from France nearly two centuries earlier) and the Albigensians (against whom the Vatican sent Crusades of extermination 4 centuries before that).

The impact of ideas and beliefs and the confusion of heresies does not simply die out with the leaders and members of the heretical sects.

French and Irish Jansenism still has an impact on the Catholic Church in the United States.

P.S. Yes, the Franks and the Venetians sacked the great city. I truly ask for forgiveness. My ancestors in faith and kin, and thus our sin. Would it have lasted until AD 1204 without the Crusades? Doubtful. Did the Western soldiers commit atrocities in the name of Holy War? Yes, they did. I beg forgiveness for that too.

Byzantine betrayal fueled the fire of the sack of that already decaying city. But we never hear about that. Wonder why?

P.S. Yes, the Franks and the Venetians sacked the great city. I truly ask for forgiveness. My ancestors in faith and kin, and thus our sin. Would it have lasted until AD 1204 without the Crusades? Doubtful. Did the Western soldiers commit atrocities in the name of Holy War? Yes, they did. I beg forgiveness for that too.

Byzantine betrayal fueled the fire of the sack of that already decaying city. But we never hear about that. Wonder why?

As I stated before, the site would loose its MAD MAX 5 star ANTI-CATHOLIC polemical status. Beating out "baptists for no catholic schools.com" (or was that the mormans?) and the "huffingtonpost" "communist propaganda(oops I mean politically left sorry!) site of the decade".

P.S. Yes, the Franks and the Venetians sacked the great city. I truly ask for forgiveness. My ancestors in faith and kin, and thus our sin. Would it have lasted until AD 1204 without the Crusades? Doubtful. Did the Western soldiers commit atrocities in the name of Holy War? Yes, they did. I beg forgiveness for that too.

Byzantine betrayal fueled the fire of the sack of that already decaying city. But we never hear about that. Wonder why?

As I stated before, the site would loose its MAD MAX 5 star ANTI-CATHOLIC polemical status. Beating out "baptists for no catholic schools.com" (or was that the mormans?) and the "huffingtonpost" "communist propaganda(oops I mean politically left sorry!) site of the decade".

Gee, and I was going to say how much fun it is to hold grudges and just blame the other guy for everything. Oh well...

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

You know, this back and forth about sins committed by long dead priests, bishops and popes really rubs me the wrong way.

All of the founding fathers of the United States who signed the Declaration of Independence came from colonies where slavery was lawful, a majority of them probably did not support abolition and many found a moral and biblical basis to support the practice in that they were slave owners. Should we hold the modern Presidents liable and accountable for the sins of Washington et al? That sounds like the kind of intellectual stupidity that I heard on my college campuses during the 1970's.

Now, I firmly believe that in order to avoid repeating the errors of the past, you have to know history. But, to avoid becoming brain dead ideologues like our enemies in the world of Muslim extremists (those who want to restore the Caliphate and retake Cordoba) you also have to look at the world through the lenses of the time in which WE live and judge people and institutions by how they conduct themselves now. (Again, you can't ignore the past but you should be consumed by it either.)

There are plenty of solid, theologically based grounds to allow us to challenge the beliefs and doctrines of the Roman church. Arguing round and round about the actions and intents of those long dead is counterproductive and precludes one from advancing a strong and defensible position with which to advance in defense of the truth of Orthodoxy.

You know, this back and forth about sins committed by long dead priests, bishops and popes really rubs me the wrong way.

All of the founding fathers of the United States who signed the Declaration of Independence came from colonies where slavery was lawful, a majority of them probably did not support abolition and many found a moral and biblical basis to support the practice in that they were slave owners. Should we hold the modern Presidents liable and accountable for the sins of Washington et al? That sounds like the kind of intellectual stupidity that I heard on my college campuses during the 1970's.

Now, I firmly believe that in order to avoid repeating the errors of the past, you have to know history. But, to avoid becoming brain dead ideologues like our enemies in the world of Muslim extremists (those who want to restore the Caliphate and retake Cordoba) you also have to look at the world through the lenses of the time in which WE live and judge people and institutions by how they conduct themselves now. (Again, you can't ignore the past but you should be consumed by it either.)

There are plenty of solid, theologically based grounds to allow us to challenge the beliefs and doctrines of the Roman church. Arguing round and round about the actions and intents of those long dead is counterproductive and precludes one from advancing a strong and defensible position with which to advance in defense of the truth of Orthodoxy.

Thank you for that. A truly refreshing point of view and comment.

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

The point here, isn't necessarily what was done in the past for it's own sake, but the fact that Roman Catholics try to defend it, or often try to use it, or consequences of it to make themselves appear to be the superior church...

You know, this back and forth about sins committed by long dead priests, bishops and popes really rubs me the wrong way.

All of the founding fathers of the United States who signed the Declaration of Independence came from colonies where slavery was lawful, a majority of them probably did not support abolition and many found a moral and biblical basis to support the practice in that they were slave owners. Should we hold the modern Presidents liable and accountable for the sins of Washington et al? That sounds like the kind of intellectual stupidity that I heard on my college campuses during the 1970's.

Now, I firmly believe that in order to avoid repeating the errors of the past, you have to know history. But, to avoid becoming brain dead ideologues like our enemies in the world of Muslim extremists (those who want to restore the Caliphate and retake Cordoba) you also have to look at the world through the lenses of the time in which WE live and judge people and institutions by how they conduct themselves now. (Again, you can't ignore the past but you should be consumed by it either.)

There are plenty of solid, theologically based grounds to allow us to challenge the beliefs and doctrines of the Roman church. Arguing round and round about the actions and intents of those long dead is counterproductive and precludes one from advancing a strong and defensible position with which to advance in defense of the truth of Orthodoxy.

Thank you for that. A truly refreshing point of view and comment.

Yes but soon other advocates of this site will say he is betraying the Orthodox Faith by being much too brainy and using damnable scholastic techniques with his use of reason and such...

The point here, isn't necessarily what was done in the past for it's own sake, but the fact that Roman Catholics try to defend it, or often try to use it, or consequences of it to make themselves appear to be the superior church...