I agree with richierumbero's sentiment but not with his strategy. I would like to see more 'classy-sexy' ladies around. But men are easily distracted and a classy girl will get fewer dances than a flashy one, so I think she should ask for dances.

I don't think things can be changed by abstinence. There are a lot of people who don't drink in the USA but they didn't stop everyone else. I think change has to come from holding up a positive model. So ladies, enthuse about the leaders who are the gentlest and most courteous, don't apologize for preferring them, and more men will seek to emulate them rather than the other type.

I stand by my earlier commenthttp://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=416578&postcount=124

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Although you disagree on a few points, you get it because you have the wisdom of your years and maybe a little more education than most. All those who responded with objections prove my point that there is little understanding of Latino culture and instead, a whole lot of misconceptions and stereotypes. No one has responded in a substantive manner to the essence of my argument, that salsa has become more rooted in “Hollywood” values than the Latino culture from whence it originated. BTW, I'm RumbaRumbera, a female.

Rumbera, (based on this and other posts) I think you're going to the wrong venues for you. There are some places I don't frequent because the crowd is too slow, or the dress is too formal. It seems that you may frequent places that have things which you don't "approve of", while there are plenty of other venues that can suit your needs.

I also want to comment, as others have chimed in, re: women looking desperate for asking men to dance. 30 years ago that may have been the case, as women moreso had a role and a "place" to maintain. :roll: But in the year 2007, I find the notion of "waiting for my turn to be chosen" - laughable. I probably would have quit salsa post haste had I felt the need to await a man's invite to have fun. If that makes me "desperate for a dance" then I'll gladly take that title. :lol: I'll also gladly leave the club having danced 15/20+ times and been guaranteed a good night. I'm sorry that you view my taking responsibility for my own good time as a "problem".

It probably just boils down to what makes the night enjoyable for you. It only takes plentiful and good dances for me. Whereas it may take the full pomp and circumstance of courting for you. To each her own.

Although you disagree on a few points, you get it because you have the wisdom of your years and maybe a little more education than most. All those who responded with objections prove my point that there is little understanding of Latino culture and instead, a whole lot of misconceptions and stereotypes. No one has responded in a substantive manner to the essence of my argument, that salsa has become more rooted in “Hollywood” values than the Latino culture from whence it originated. BTW, I'm RumbaRumbera, a female.

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fwiw, the latino culture is alive and well in jersey, and i find the men generally very gracious & classy and nothing declasse about the ladies. as for hollywood... i know nothing about your local vibe and so wouldn't deign to comment on that.

A sleaze or a show off is one no matter which culture one comes from. THeir are certain traditions that are common such as the way one asks for dances in Argentine tango. Similarly many latinos come from a culture where a lady does not ask. Forget about latinos as I know many ladies from other cultures, who don't think it is right to ask for a dance.

I have a couple people who ask me and I'll always accept. It does not matter how out of it I am. Reason? They smile and have a good time. They make eye contact. I canot help but want to show them a good time and in the process I'm always happier at the end of the dance. One dresses in pretty rough clothes and dances barefoot, but that does not matter.

i'm going to call out a very rude behavior here, and i'm going to ask if this rudeness is coming from latino culture, or is it just these specific players (some that i willl call out by name). i'm really only interested in hearing from these folks - either say that you are being rude and stop being that, or just toss the hot potato and blame the latino culture.

the behavior in question is this - since when did it become acceptable to have a conversation in a non-common language (spanish) among folks who don't all understand that language. I for one would like to say, no entiendo, perdon!! - i don't understand spanish.

Now, in my experience with a few groups of latino folks that I know (teachers, random acquaintances), I seem to be hitting this wall all the time. That they are talking with one another in spanish despite the fact that they have an individual (me) hanging out with them that can't follow their language. They would still talk to me in English, but talk in Spanish amongst themselves oftentimes, which makes me feel like being left out. I think it's rude behavior.

Now thus far, I've just attributed it as a bad attitude on part of the specific people and not latinos in general. Here, we have a thread about latino culture, and some of those who are expounding the said culture are also, unequivocally, acting rude (by having a spanish conversation - and please, don't blame the one who started. if you perpetuated the conversation in spanish, you might not want to point fingers). So I'm forced to conclude that something is amiss in the latino culture (so i might as well assume that whatever it is that you are glorifying is suspect and avoid it), or those who are calling out the merits of decorous behavior just don't know how to act politely themselves and have no locus standi to be preaching here.

not latino behaviour. my pro & one of his students/one of my friends converse in slovak/czech in front of me all the time. my friend is the one that initiates it, and she will continue it even when i let her know i'm on the outside of the conversation.

sometimes i'll speak greek in passing in front of others who don't understand, but i would never remain in the language unless i were speaking to someone who didn't speak english.

as an aside... i know a salsa friend who speaks both greek & spanish, and we've spoken our own merging of the two languages, which is actually very fun... mixing verbs from one language & adjectives from another. what a hoot...

<snip> All those who responded with objections prove my point that there is little understanding of Latino culture and instead, a whole lot of misconceptions and stereotypes. No one has responded in a substantive manner to the essence of my argument, that salsa has become more rooted in “Hollywood” values than the Latino culture from whence it originated. <snip>

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Many of us don't respond directly because I suspect there is little I could say that would change your mind. Your perspective is different from mine (and some others) and I respect your views even if I disagree with some of them. (I am old enough not to argue with people who have made up their mind on a specific subject.)

A couple points from my point of view:

1) It will never go back to the way it was 10 years ago or even 3 years ago. Salsa, music, movies, dancing and other arts are evolving constantly and I don't always like the direction. Moving forward Salsa will be influenced by hip-hop, ballroom, international and many other dances, as newer blood is drawn into the scene. My Mom thought rock and roll was ruining us kids, (well, it did in my case), but most of my peers did just fine.

2) Some people make a decision to bloom where they are planted. At some clubs the culture you seek will not be there or will be there now but may not be in the future. If I want "all salsa, all night", I have to support the clubs which support that format, otherwise those clubs will start playing polkas or hip-hop all night if enough people enjoy that exclusively.

This won’t be news to you , but life changes, and I don’t love every change I see, so I support the clubs which fit my likes and don’t support those where I don’t fit. Hopefully, my likes will match enough others (or I can find those people) otherwise I have to simply start playing poker or take up ballroom dancing where tradition is heavily valued. Salsa is a relatively young dance, but even ballet dancing has changed over the years, incorporating many modern influences while still retaining most of it's roots.

I still suspect nothing I say will change your mind as you hold very strong opinions. (Nothing wrong with that, I’m in that camp myself.)

For example: I never see a woman as desperate if she asks me to dance, even though 90% of the time I will ask. I have an ego just like other guys, and I suspect your ego is enhanced when a quality gentleman asks you to dance, and then asks you again, which validates he enjoyed the first dance.

If a lady asks me to dance, as a rule I’ll ask her in the future most of the time. As a guy, you never really know if a woman enjoys dancing with you or she is simply being nice.

I doubt you say negative things to partners, even if they are not your favorite dancers. Most women will fake a good time with me, and they did it when I was a beginner, so it’s difficult to tell if they really enjoyed my lead. There is no way they did in the early days, and I’m still a work in progress so some feedback is helpful. Frankly, if you are faking a good time with me, I’d rather ask someone else, looking for partners that truly enjoy my lead and are excited to dance with me.

I think your point of view is valuable, and being a guy, I will probably never understand all of your points. It’s great to see as much as possible through your eyes but it’s also clear that many others see things differently.

the behavior in question is this - since when did it become acceptable to have a conversation in a non-common language (spanish) among folks who don't all understand that language.

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I recognize that this is considered rude in face-to-face conversation (although I am not myself offended when I am on the outside of it, as I know how difficult it is to keep from slipping into another language when both of you are familiar with it).

But I see it on message boards all the time and never considered it rude. The internet is an open forum, and people speak in hundreds of different languages. I've no idea who may or may not be reading this message, and it doesn't seem reasonable to constrain the language of a post that is not directed at you, just because you might happen along and not be able to read it. No?

samina said:

as an aside... i know a salsa friend who speaks both greek & spanish, and we've spoken our own merging of the two languages, which is actually very fun... mixing verbs from one language & adjectives from another. what a hoot...

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Greek and Spanish are really hard to keep apart, I've found. I have several relatives and one friend who speak both, and after five minutes I don't think anybody even notices how much of each sentence is happening in each language. I think it is because the accents and intonations are so similar. When you throw an English word into a Greek or Spanish conversation you have to change your pronunciation completely; but Greek and Spanish just slip right into each other.

I know. The point was that you can't generalize based on limited data points. i haven't enough experience with tons of latinos to blame them as a 'class' for bad behavior. R/R hasn't done enough mind-reading of all skimpily clad women and the men who ask them (exclusively or not) to know that they are all depraved. And we don't have enough analysis and data to prove that Hollywood-in-LA=bad and Latino-Culture=good (If this were true, then NY-style/On2 would be instantly deemed "better" than LA-Style/On1!!). The generalizations are all silly, but we already have the beginnings of a flamewar on the basis of these generalizations.