Posted:12th Sep 2001Yeah thats the answer, give as good as you get eh?When people stop turning to weapons to resolve problems then maybe one day we wont have to deal with situations like this.Retaliating by bombing them IS NOT going to help. Think of the situation and reasoning behind why these people did this.People dont turn to these actions without strong beliefs.The palastines are celbrating in the street at this travesty.....what does that tell you about the way the world really perseves america and their political actions?!

- Industrial design knows of no article more useful than the milk crate -

Posted:13th Sep 2001Tuesday morning's terrorA timeline of how the events unfolded in Tuesday's terrorist attacks: 8:55 a.m. Reuters bulletin, World Trade Center burning after explosion 9:01 Plane reported to have hit World Trade Center, building burning, Reuters reporter on scene reports. 9:05 Second explosion rocks World Trade Center. 9:12 A plane swooped down and hit the second tower of the World Trade Center about two thirds of the way up the tower, leading to another large explosion, a Reuters reporter watching the scene on TV said. 9:17 United Kingdom's FTSE 100 falls 55 points after World Trade Center reports 9:19 Commodity trading in the New York Board of Trade shut down. 9:25 The trading floor of the New York Mercantile Exchange evacuated, adjacent to World Trade Center. 9:28 New York TV quotes police saying planes that hit World Trade Center were hijacked from Boston. 9:30 New York Stock Exchange delays opening. 9:35 London Brent crude futures surged $1.75 a barrel after apparent terrorist attacks. 9:36 Palestinian DFLP claims responsibility for World Trade Center attacks, according to Abu Dhabi TV 9:36 President Bush, cutting short a visit to Florida, says "terrorism against our nation will not stand." 9:38 New York police tell bystanders third plane might be approaching World Trade Center. 9:43 Immediate evacuation of White House ordered. Eyewitnesses report fire trucks surround the White House as smoke billows from outside the grounds on the south side near the Mall. 9:43 Part of U.S. Pentagon in Arlington, Va., across the river from Washington, D.C., being evacuated. 9:45 Palestinian DFLP officials denies responsibility for World Trade Center attack. 9:46 Eyewitness reports explosion outside Pentagon, building evacuated. 9:46 U.S. Treasury in Washington, DC, evacuated. 9:47 UK's FTSE 100 down 156 points (3.3%) after report of Pentagon explosion. 9:48 Eyewitness reports US Capitol in Washington, DC, evacuated. 9:50 Federal Aviation Administration grounds all planes across the USA, the first-ever national ground stoppage of commercial aircraft. 9:51 U.K.'s FTSE 100 slides 210 points (4.16%). 9:55 U.S. official says a plane crashed next to the Pentagon, causing a huge explosion, and the incident was believed terrorist-related. Stars and Stripes reporter Lisa Burgess said she was walking in a corridor near the blast site and was thrown to the ground by the force of the blast. 9:57 U.S. State Department evacuated as a precaution. 10:00 One of World Trade Center towers collapses. 10:15 Chicago Mercantile Exchange suspends trading. 10:23 A car bomb exploded outside the US State Department in Washington, DC, enforcement officials report. 10:23 FAA says all transatlantic flights to USA diverted to Canada. 10:29 The second World Trade Center tower collapses. 10:37 Officials confirm that United Airlines Flight 93, en route to San Francisco from Newark, N.J., has crashed 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh. None of the 45 people aboard believed to have survived. 10-11:30 Government buildings around the country are evacuated, including the Capitol and the White House. The United Nations closes. The Securities and Exchange Commission closes all U.S. financial markets for the day. New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani calls for evacuation of lower Manhattan. 1:20 p.m. Bush leaves Barksdale Air Force Base, La., for secure, undisclosed location. 2:51 The Navy dispatches missile destroyers and other equipment to New York and Washington. 5:25 Another part of the World Trade Center complex, the 47-story Building 7, collapses. It had already been evacuated. 7:00 Bush arrives in Washington from Nebraska. All I can say is I weep for the world.------------------Blessings to all, Peter "There is a rhythm that unites us with the natural world. The more we learnto feel that rhythm and get it into the mainstream of our lives, thestronger can be our spirit."--- Robert Rodale

Blessings to all, Peter When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon ...you just have to outrun the halfling.

Posted:13th Sep 2001Okay, we're adult people hereI feel like Choty, yes I wanna bomb out those motha.... but at the same time I'm agreeing with Frenzie, we can reason with the terrorist and find out what happened, and they'll suffer even more, 'cause of the break ofinternational relationship that they're going to have(if it is a country) and they'll suffer for a long time. But if they declare war then it's something different; Choty's statement will be a reality... bombing each other..."In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb" , "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus 1654World Trade Center Destroyed...Afganistan burning burning...If there is gonna be a World War 3... then this gonna be a dissaster... Nuclear War...

Posted:13th Sep 2001LATEST NEWS: 200 firefighters are presumed dead and at least 78 police officers are unaccounted for in New York City. President Bush will address the nation at 8:30 p.m. ------------------Blessings to all, Peter "There is a rhythm that unites us with the natural world. The more we learnto feel that rhythm and get it into the mainstream of our lives, thestronger can be our spirit."--- Robert Rodale

Blessings to all, Peter When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon ...you just have to outrun the halfling.

Posted:13th Sep 2001As Einstein said, "I don't know about WWIII, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones." I just hope we can find the people who did this, and put them to justice with a minimal loss of life.

Posted:13th Sep 2001economically this was a stupid action for the people who did this. As been said, it will only cause repocussions of trade halts with that nation unless responsiblity is taken by the party and dealt with.These situations shouldnt lead to further violence, violence of all kinds should be condemned. But the root cause of these actions needs to be looked at and understood and dealt with. Its more than just a school yard squabble.

- Industrial design knows of no article more useful than the milk crate -

Posted:12th Sep 2001Frenzie, I dont disagree with you about these terrorists having underlying issues that might need to be dealt with(i for one dont give a shit about them, but u seem to) but my point is that they are in the supreme position of not having any respect for human life. If someone is willing to trade their lives in order to carry out any form of terrorism then they are virtually unable to be stopped. I recently saw a news story where mothers were exclaiming how proud they would be if their 10 yr old sons would grow up to be a suicide bomber!Truly one of the most disgusting things i've ever heard. You CAN'T reason with this!!!

Posted:12th Sep 2001witma: i dont think you can make any comment on their position unless you have lived like they do, have been in war for as long as their families can remember, and most of the people DO blame the US for their involvement and poiltical allinaces and international policies.I think these actions are sickening and cant believe the loss of life for a political agenda, makes me angry that in this day and age that resolutions cant be found before serious actions such as this

- Industrial design knows of no article more useful than the milk crate -

Posted:12th Sep 2001Frenzie, I don't think the people that did this were thinking about consequences. I don't think any sane person could even begin to understand what goes on in the mind of these fanatics!As a matter of interest, what do you guys in the US think about having George W at the helm at a time like this. Do you guys have any confidence in him being able to handle the situation with any competency?

Posted:12th Sep 2001Especially when its revealed who did this tragedy i would suggest some reading on what goes on in countries other than your own.I mean we are very sheltered in Australia and for that im thankful. Ive never had to live through war and famine and heartache. Ive never been down trodden cause i was female, never been convicted because of my religion.....From the sounds of Bush's statements im quite scared of the outcome of this event.... Was a very stupid and crazy incident... lets hope that he doesnt follow suit :/Im sorry if my views offend anyone...im not inhumane and i do feel deeply for the innocents involved in this, i just have a tendancy to try and look from both sides of the fence and evaluate the situation that way.

- Industrial design knows of no article more useful than the milk crate -

Posted:12th Sep 2001*sigh*im gonna try and stop thinking about this now, have been twirling in my head as a distraction from it, all in all its got me quite upset and confused and feeling kinda shite Non-Https Image LinkDesperately trying to look for some good news in my day, but yeah *sigh* news my friends mum has bowel cancer hasnt helped and im going nuts!!!!!!!!!!!Hope everyone's day improves and threads can be a little lighter (no disrespect for anyones loss).

- Industrial design knows of no article more useful than the milk crate -

Posted:12th Sep 2001Of course the people were thinking about the consquences. These actions were carried out in direct reply to America's actions in the middle east, of that i have no doubt.i find the loss of life a dissapointment, but politically this should make a lot of people listen up.I have friends in the middle east who tell me their countries feel utterly raped by the united states and their actions over there. These people have been losing their families lives and safety for YEARS and it hasnt been on CNN."Do you guys have any confidence in him being able to handle the situation with any competency?"You mean... can be blow up bombs? The "united states" as a political power has had this coming for years, its just a shame that the only way to make people listen these days is to kill innocent people. Its the ONLY way to get prime time TV! dont *just* blame the terrorists, blame the entirely hypocritical and utterly corrupt american way of life.

Posted:12th Sep 2001No matter what we want, the truth is that someone will bomb someone else pretty soon and all hell is going to break loose. Someone WILL pay for the bloodshed but whether it will be innocent people or the bastards that actually did it or not is the question we need to ask.god can't help when we are trying to kill each otherpeace out or we'll all diebye:Chotys:

Posted:12th Sep 2001I am agreeing, violence begetting violence solves nothing.Dark Star...I am from New York State (not city). We are already feeling the inflation of gas prices and things shutting down even this far away from the disaster. I don't think I have ever had absolute faith in any President to handle a crisis such as this, most especially GWB, but then I never dreamed anything of this caliber would happen. I think any official that will make a public statement such as "We will hunt them down", as if the offenders were not intelligent people (as they have proven themselves to be) but rather rabbits for the sunday shooting is not high on my list of leaders. Nor do I hold any hope in the fact that GWB referred to these terrorist acts as being done by cowards. This shows me that he has no understanding from whence these people come. People who are willing to sacrifice themselves for their god, for what they believe is a higher purpose is not a coward in my book, it is noble. I am **not** saying that I find nobility in the slaughter of thousands. I am saying I find nobility in their absolute conviction, which is something lacking in today's society I think. I do not think any of the leader's of the world today are really equipped to handle such a situation. He could try to reason with people who find honour in dieing for their cause? Probably not going to work and GWB is not known for his sense of reason.Ignore it? Not a chance a person in the world will let that happen. We ignore them, they strike worse and he loses what little credibility he has. Retaliate. Now, I don't think nuclear's will be involved here (sorry people, Nostrodamus' track record is sketchy at best and his predictions are open to interpretation wholly, I feel the same about the bible) since I do think GWB knows that use of them is essentially the end of everything as we know it and he is too comfy flying about on Air Force One to let that happen. Send in troops for a good ol' Texan stand off. Maybe. But we have been there and done that and it never got anywhere, look at Vietnam, Korea, Desert Storm...nothing was truly solved except pissing off people in places we had no business interferring with in the first place. It'll just get more boys brought home in caskets for momma's to bury. Yet, in the end, aren't those what the choices boil down to? No one person, or nation for that matter, is equipped to handle it. That doesn't mean that there aren't people I have more faith in than GWB, that list is long and esteemed, but he is the one who ended up in this position and he is the one I do not envy for it. I admit, I am about as unpatriotic as they come but I do care about people. When people with no real political agenda, hell, children were killed here, are harmed on such a wide scale for something they know little to nothing about then I view it as an attack on humanity and human decency, and no matter what your political or religious agenda there is usually an eddict that covers the protection of the innocent. This is what I see as the grave violation, and no matter what country we are from we should be touched by it and demand some form of justice be done, as a humans united not states and countries.(Pele steps off of soapbox and politely excuses herself Non-Https Image Link)------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted:12th Sep 2001I'd like to point out, that there are a lot of ppl on this board who are directly or indirectly affected by whats going on in NY, and this topic has potential to turn into a total slanging match. I'd like ppl to remember to think before typing, and to read the "Read this before replying to a topic" message.This is after all an off-topic topic.Please dont think I'm being insensitive, I have two close friends who are holidaying in NY right now, and were staying in manhattan, so I have some idea about how ppl are feeling.Peace,Josh

Posted:12th Sep 2001from a friend of mine on a mailing list I'm on:if you read this article, (where all the hype seems to stem from)http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm - it looks like this guy made up the quote to use as an example of the handy vagueness of prophecy- there's no reference to a particular quatrain of N's.on a searchable index of N's quatrains, there is NO reference to the aforementioned quote "In the City of God there will be a great thunder, TWO BROTHERS torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb", "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" -- Nostradamus 1654 oh, plus the fact that the above quote states the saying as coming from Nostr. in 1654 - He died in 1566. Go figure...

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Posted:12th Sep 2001My heart goes out to all Americans today, when I heard the news I was stunned and shocked. Never have i been so glad to live in these isolated islands.No matter how much pain and anger you might be feeling now, when the time for retribution comes, please NO NUKES.) Non-Https Image Link

That is perfect. This is perfect. Perfect comes from perfect. Take perfect away from perfect, the remainder is perfect. May peace and peace and peace be everywhere. :)

Posted:12th Sep 2001My heart goes out to you all.I know there is this instinctive rush to inflict vengence on "the bad guys" Non-Https Image Link . I feel it too. But we need to remember to not go out, in a blind rush, with the notion that "somebody must pay"... Not neccicerily the perpetrators, just "somebody" Non-Https Image Link . We (society) often lust for vengence and it matters not who gets the punishment, guilty or inocent...society always finds a "fall guy". "somebody must pay" This is sad. As much as part of me lusted for vengence, the greater part of me had the above wisdom in mind. I realy don't want to see even more people die over this. I would much rather see steps taken to prevent this from happening again. NOT to see more people die for the sake of "vengence". Even if it requires strip searches at airports, and armored cocpits, and armed guards on the plane, this will not happen again. But, I do NOT want to wake up one day and find myself living in a police state, because then the terrorists WILL have won. We (USA) have been going around bombing the piss out of every nation or group that offends us, for many years. Now it has come full circle. More violence will only escalate the terror even more and eventualy may lead to a police state in the USA (land of the free?), where you will need a passport and permits (in triplicate) to travel to the next state, much less scratch your own ass. I truely hope that never happens.This is the worst tragedy we as a nation have ever experienced. I finaly gave up trying to hide my tears, I don't care who sees them now. This has hurt us all. Even the OKC bombing didn't realy phase me and it was right next door. But this, this is different. I kept looking up at the sky today, wondering at the absence of planes, dreading the sight of one comeing down. This is real terrorizm, car bombs ain't sh_t compared to this. My prayers go out to all.PEACE LOVE TIERED (of this)DanielP.S. I have ommited the word "fire" from this phrase for the time being. Non-Https Image LinkP.P.S. give Blood, I did: TYPE O+ (most needed type)

Posted:12th Sep 2001here here, to well wishes for all the people involved, i honestly think that this is a true tragedy for all of human kind and humanity, as for retaliation which i believe will happen, "an eye for an eye makes the world blind"Nostradamus: he has been right on a few occasions and the prospect of him hitting the nail on the head in this instance is a scary prospect to say the least; 2 WTC towers being the brothers, a fortress being the Pentagon? WW3 - i certainly hope not, and a great leadrer will succumb - i don't think he's goin to lie down considering all the statements he has made about retaliation -agree that he's a simpleton redneck who just might be folish enough to get a all killed; started to feel slightly relieved that i'm in oz until i rememered that we will end up supporting the US in a war and our place called pine gap doesen't help my peace of mind. (it's a US nuclear installation)hope for peace and a swift resolution to this crisis, goes out to all. [This message has been edited by JeStEr (edited 12 September 2001).][This message has been edited by JeStEr (edited 12 September 2001).]

Posted:12th Sep 2001it's actually in this thread, about 6 posts up from this one.

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Posted:12th Sep 2001Jester - I am in no way discounting what Nostradamus has said/predicted. I am a bit of a believer myself! What I am saying is that the prediction everyone is currently discussing was **MADE UP BY SOMEONE ELSE - NOT NOSTRO**!It was made up by the guy (on that website I linked to) as an example of how vague predictions can be.

HoP Posting GuidelinesIs it the Truth? Is it Fair to all concerned? Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships? Will it be Beneficial to all concerned? If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

Posted:12th Sep 2001fair enough,damn those self administered prophets stiring up trouble *sigh*does any one know how other psychics like edgar case have answered when asked bout the next big conflict/war?

Posted:12th Sep 2001I cannot believe it, I was watching Late night TV last night (we are 12 hours in front here) they switched live to the disaster, so there I was, in total shock, as a watched LIVE the second plane crash into the World Trade Centre...followed by the collapse of the buildings... I could not beilieve what I saw.I want to express my sympathy for all the lives lost and all the people affected by this, I think this has had an impact on the World, not just NY.I pity most the people that were on the planes that crashed.. talk about horror, I cannot understand how people could accept a suicide mission, and for what?

Posted:12th Sep 2001to all: haven't read this whole post yet. just wanted to convey my deepest sympathies to any and all that have been affected by this. i myself may be affected soon enough. my prayers and thoughts are with all.