The Hardening of Pharaoh's Heart

Who Hardened Pharaoh's Heart?

No doubt you’ve heard the doctrinal argument that Pharaoh had no choice in the hardening of his heart in regard to Israel’s captivity and deliverance. Surely, if God was responsible for this, He can also do the same for anyone anywhere in the world. Is it true that those with hardened hearts or those of a depraved mind are made to be that way? We’re going to take a moment to get this matter cleared up according to the Word of God.

Let’s first observe the story of Joseph and how he became the ruler of Egypt under Pharaoh (Gen 41). Note that the Pharaoh who ruled in the days of Joseph’s captivity and rise to power feared God, in that he saw how Joseph’s God manifested Himself through Joseph’s ability to interpret the dream of the great harvest and famine that would hit the land, saving Egypt from destruction.

The Plagues of Egypt

God Hardened Pharaoh's Heart?

We must clarify that this was not the Pharaoh of whom God 'hardened his heart'. It was a LATER Pharaoh (after Joseph died and the Hebrews continued to greatly multiply in Egypt). The story begins in Exodus 1:8 through 22 “Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. He said to his people, ‘Behold, the people of the sons of Israel are more and mightier than we. Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, or else they will multiply and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those who hate us, and fight against us and depart from the land.’ So they appointed taskmasters over them to afflict them with hard labor. And they built for Pharaoh storage cities, Pithom and Raamses. But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and the more they spread out, so that they were in dread of the sons of Israel. The Egyptians compelled the sons of Israel to labor rigorously; and they made their lives bitter with hard labor in mortar and bricks and at all kinds of labor in the field, all their labors which they rigorously imposed on them. Then the king of Egypt [Pharaoh] spoke to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other was named Puah; and he said, ‘When you are helping the Hebrew women to give birth and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.’ But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them, but let the boys live. So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, ‘Why have you done this thing, and let the boys live?’ The midwives said to Pharaoh, ‘Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife can get to them.’ So God was good to the midwives, and the people multiplied, and became very mighty. Because the midwives feared God, He established households for them. Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, ‘Every son who is born you are to cast into the Nile, and every daughter you are to keep alive.’”

The story goes on to tell us of the birth of Moses and why his mother placed him in a basket in the Nile River where he was discovered by Pharaoh’s daughter and subsequently raised by a “nurse maid”, his under-cover biological mother. It wasn’t until Moses had fled Egypt due to killing an Egyptian slave-master in retribution for killing one of his enslaved Hebrew brethren that God told him to return to Pharaoh and stated He would harden Pharaoh’s heart. Exodus 4:21 “The LORD said to Moses, ‘When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.’”

Something I recently learned regarding the Hebrew language is about their use of "idioms". According to a Jewish scholar, Joseph Bryant Rotherham, this verse is properly translated into English as follows: "And Yahweh said unto Moses, 'When thou goest to return to Egypt, see as touching all the wonders which I have put in thy hand, that thou do them before Pharaoh--but, I, will let his heart wax bold, and he will not suffer the people to go."

Throughout this ordeal, consider the Bible states several times that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Ex 8:15 & 32; 9:34).

Here we have a hint that one must be willfully rebellious against God first for God to allow the hardening of his heart, resulting in His wrath being poured out upon him. The LORD is yet glorified, for the plagues He poured out upon Pharaoh and Egypt resulted in the Jews and Egyptians seeing His miraculous power of deliverance and judgment.

Consider Ex 4:14 “’Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart [I will let his heart wax bold], and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.’ And they did so.”

Look at 1 Sam 6:16 “Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts?”

2 Cor 4:3-4

The Hardening of Israel

What did Israel do in Isa 5:24? “for they have rejected the law of the LORD Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.”

Then, we see God’s "allowance" in the next chapter ~ 6:10-11 “Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then I said, ‘Lord, how long?’ And He answered, ‘Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, Houses are without people And the land is utterly desolate, until the LORD has sent everyone away, and the entire land of Israel lies deserted.’”

Compare this passage to Deut 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked--You are grown fat, thick, and sleek--Then he forsook God who made him, And [he] scorned the Rock of his salvation.”

Now we have a better understanding of Mat 13:15 “for the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them.” This is the cross-reference to Isa 6:10.

How then is God yet glorified in allowing the hardening of the hearts of Israel? Rom 11:25 states, “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise [conceited] in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;”

According to the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, “until the Gentiles have had their full time of the visible Church all to themselves while the Jews are out, which the Jews had till the Gentiles were brought in." (See Lu 21:24: “they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”)

The Reprobate

While doctrines of error teach that some people are born as reprobates (aka depraved), the Bible is clear again that people are given over to reprobation/depravity because of their rebellion:

Speaking of homosexuality: Rom 1:25-27 “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie...For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions...”

Speaking of imposters: 2 Tim 3:2-8 “For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. Just as Jannes and Jambres [magicians of Pharaoh] opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth,men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith."

A Strong Delusion

Let’s observe WHY God sends a strong delusion upon mankind. There is a REASON:

2 Thes 2:9-10 “that is, the one [Antichrist] whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. FOR THIS REASON God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”

Consider Jesus’ words to the depraved Jews in John 8:44: “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

Do we see that God gives man the desires [will] of his heart? Look at the following two verses:

Ecc 11:9 “Rejoice, young man, during your childhood, and let your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood. And follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes. Yet know that God will bring you to judgment for all these things.”

Mat 6:21 “for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Pick a passage out of context...

A Word of Prophecy

One must be exposed to sound doctrine before they can choose to turn away from it. We’ve read earlier phrases such as, “Why do you harden your hearts?”, “they have rejected the law of the LORD Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel”, “he forsook God who made him, And [he] scorned the Rock of his salvation”, “they exchanged the truth of God for a lie”, “holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power”, “these men also oppose the truth”, “because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved”, “in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth”, “you want to do the desires of your father [the devil]”, “follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes”…and there’s more!

2 Tim 4:3-4 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.”

A New Heart

Heb 4:7 “He again fixes a certain day, ‘Today,’ saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, ‘Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts." (Cross-reference Ps 95:7-8)

2 Cor 6:2 “for He says, ‘At the acceptable time I listened to you, and on the day of salvation I helped you.’ Behold, now is 'the acceptable time,' behold, now is ‘the day of salvation'"!!

Are you like Felix in Acts 24:25? "But as he [Paul] was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix became frightened and said, 'Go away for the present, and when I find time I will summon you.'" Only God knows how long His Spirit will strive with you (Gen 6:3: "Then the LORD said, 'My Spirit shall not strive with man forever'").

If you have rejected the gospel of salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, it’s not too late. God desires [wills] to take away your heart of stone [hardened heart] and give you a heart of flesh, that you may receive the love of the truth so as to be saved!!

Eze 36:26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.”

Did I say believers shall never die physically, Hell No? Please read what I said again. That is not what I said. Jesus was not talking about physical death (for we know Martha died physically), but that she (spiritually) never died. If "sleep" is the P.C. word of that day for "die/dead", then are you saying you believe the dead are literally sleeping (as in inhale/exhale)? What about those who are cremated? You believe the dead are dead, not breathing, not conscious of anything until the physical resurrection. Jesus said it's not so in John 11:26. We shall NEVER die (sleep).

Do you believe ALL people must die a physical death to inherit the kingdom of God? What about Enoch and Elijah? What have you to say to Paul's statement in 1 Cor 15:51 about your theology - "We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall be changed"?

Yes, Jesus was really DEAD. And yes, He was literally resurrected, obviously, in the same body He died in. I believe Jesus raised Himself from the dead, as He said He would in John 2:19 and 21. Just because the Bible also states, "God raised Him" and "the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus" doesn't mean there are three who did so. He is One God. One in the same. Now, how could Jesus raise Himself from the dead, if His Spirit was not outside His DEAD body (Temple)?

I'm not going to spout what Jesus currently looks like, for the Scriptures say 1) He showed His wounds to Thomas in the upper room (John 20:27); 2) He appeared in "another / a different" form to two of His disciples walking in the country (Mark 16:12) and 3) He appeared to Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus as invisible, speaking Light (Acts 9:3-7). What form do you think He is currently in or will be in?

Just as Jesus' body was literally raised from the dead, so shall ours be. I don't know what we'll look like when we are resurrected.

Regarding the commas? Okay, you mentioned the Greek has no commas, so I shouldn't read Luke 23:43 as all legitimate translations read (including your NLT) - "And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise." No - you'd rather I read it as the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation reads, by moving the comma - "I assure you today, you will be with me in paradise." (as in some day). Again, compare the translations yourself:

Are you kidding? Where did u get the "never ever die"? U r adding words or else its the translation. And "even after dying" is definitely an addition. So u think the scriptures actually say that believers shall never die? Physically? Really? Even Jesus died. Yes. He was really dead. He had to b ressurected by The Father. He didn't ressurect Himself. What is obviously being spoken of there is they will not die the second death as the term is meant for those heading into judgment. Yes, i know it doesn't make sense to you but they already died carnally. Their physical death is a must for them to inherit the Kingdom of God. Do u really think physical bodies r ressurected as church folk think? What, looking the same as they did when they died? R u gonna spout about Jesus and the holes in His hands (or more likely wrists). Does poor ol Jesus have to spend eternity with holes in His body? I don't think so. We must die physically, even if we r alive when Christ returns. And we must b ressurected. Oh and u miss stated simething i said about the commas too. But what's new.

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Judah's Daughter 2 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Hell No - Jesus not only rebuked the Pharisees, but look at what He said in Mat 23:29-39 (NLT, as you prefer this translation):

29 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you build tombs for the prophets your ancestors killed, and you decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors destroyed. 30 Then you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would never have joined them in killing the prophets.’

31 “But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started. 33 Snakes! Sons of vipers! HOW WILL YOU ESCAPE THE JUDGMENT [2920. Krisis - sentencing] OF HELL [1067. Geenna - the final hell, the Lake of Fire]?

34 “Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city. 35 As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, this judgment will fall on this very generation." [Note, the word 'judgment' is not in the Greek text]

Jesus Grieves over Jerusalem

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. 38 And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate. 39 For I tell you this, you will never see me again UNTIL you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the LORD!’”

Does this mean they WILL ALL say, "Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the LORD!"? No. This means, they will not see salvation unless they confess and bless their Messiah (thus, there is hope). Again Romans 9 tells us who the "Israel of God" is - you cannot claim these murderous Pharisees are guaranteed salvation, merely because they are natural-born Israel. Yes, Jesus did pray, while on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they KNOW NOT what they do." This does not mean they were forgiven for all sins for all time, but that the offense of murdering their Messiah would not be eternally held against them, for they truly knew not what they were doing. Besides, the death of Christ was the will of God, His purpose for being born. No immortal can shed blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin (Heb 9:22) = Again, remember the predestination of the Lamb and the consummation of the ages to save all who believed/believe.

Regarding Paradise, Hell No - you say there is no comma before the word "today" in the Greek, but then you insert one after the word "today"?. Let's first establish that the word "sleep" means "dead":

John 11:11-13 (NLT)

"Then he said, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up." The disciples said, "Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!" They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died."

OKAY?

Now, let's go to Jesus' words to Martha in John 11:25-26 (NLT)

"Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will NEVER EVER die. Do you believe this, Martha?"

Wait, did Jesus LIE, for Martha surely died (fell asleep). Therefore, we KNOW Jesus was NOT speaking about physical, but spiritual DEATH (sleep). Martha is, therefore, not "sleeping" in her grave.

Earlier you stated, "So does that mean the Lake of Fire for Noah and abraham and . . . Well, maybe fire sounds a little extreme. Lets just use light flame. "

Let's go back and look at the rich man and Lazarus - there was obviously a chasm between them that each could not cross over to the other side. In Luke 16:23-24 (NLT) the nameless rich man was being "tormented" in Hades, suffering "anguish in these flames" (see the Greek word for hell), while Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham. "Death and Hades" (note, these are those in the second resurrection - Rev 20:13) are cast into the Lake of Fire (vs. 14), not those in "Abraham's bosom". No flames or fire of any kind for those saved by faith in the LORD Jesus Christ.

I've aligned Paradise (Rev 2:7) and its location (the third heaven - 2 Cor 12:2-4) with the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:14) based on the Tree of Life. The New Jerusalem is made up of believers (note the 144,000 names on the gates, the names of the Apostles on the 12 foundation stones of the wall, that we are as "living stones", Jesus Christ being the chief Corner Stone). 1 Peter 2:5 states it well (NLT) "And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What's more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God."

Sure, there's a "church" teaching out there that believers will live IN mansions made of gold - but, what they fail to understand is that it's the Father that seeks a HOUSE, and His HOUSE has many DWELLING PLACES. He (God is Spirit) lives IN believers. WE are HIS HOUSE (Temple). John 4:24; 1 Cor 6:19

Discipline is learning, Hell No. Discipline is reserved for the children of God and not all are God's children (1 John 3:10). Judgment [2920. Krisis - sentencing] is not for the children of God (John 5:24, ), but is the consequence for those who reject(ed) the ONLY WAY of salvation - the ONLY ONE who cleanses by His blood (forgiveness) and washes us with His Living Water from the inside out - His Name is JESUS. He is GOD our SAVIOR (Isa 43:11, 45:21; Hosea 13:4) and there is no other.

Blessings.

Hell N0 2 years ago

I dont argue that Jesus rebuked the pharasies and such. More so than church folk want to admit. He was sarcastic, He called them whited sewers, etc. but if anything, He asked the Father to help them, not turn from them. He told the theif, "I tell you this day. He didn't say today he would be in paradice. There were no commas in the greek. And besides, what is paradice? It could be sleep. And of course u cant possibly agree with me that david and all the others will be in the first ressurection because u believe in some eternal hello my lady hello my honey. . .

Judgment in its simplest form is learning.

Author

Judah's Daughter 2 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Hello, Hell No. I disagree that David or any of those who lived by faith in the LORD (and there is only One LORD - Eph 4:5) will not partake in the first resurrection. Jesus, the epitome of agape love (John 3:16), with phileo love for His friends (James 2:23; John 15:13-14), never sinned. Yet, He overturned the tables of the money-changers (Mat 21:12) and rebuked the Pharisees sharply in Mat 23 (the seven woes)! David is said to be a man after God's own heart (1 Sam 13:14).

We are saved by faith (Eph 2:8) - we are empowered by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8), who writes the Law of God upon our hearts (Heb 8:10; John 15:26). The difference between the Old and New Covenants is the external Law and its consequences vs. the internal Law and grace/mercy. You must remember, Jesus forgave that crippled man's sins before the cross, based on FAITH. David was obviously a son of God, for God disciplines those He loves, else we are bastards and not sons (Heb 12:6-8).

Again, look at those listed as the fathers of faith in Heb 11 (all before the Law of God and the Law of Moses were given). The Lamb slain was predestined from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and consummated both the Old and New ages at that moment in time (Heb 9:26) - Passover (John 19:31 - the Day of Preparation and Passover day are the same - followed by the high Sabbath, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread), when the Lamb of God shed His holy and blameless blood for all. I liken this to the Mohar (the Bride price). Israel was God's betrothed before the cross (Hos 2:19); Gentiles, by faith were grafted into Israel (Rom 11) as God's Betrothed after the cross (Mat 25). Rom 11, though, tells us that the natural branches were cut off due to unbelief (no faith), yet can (by faith) be grafted in as we are.

Regarding the infilling/anointing of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, I found this article worth the read:

Ok dont eat while reading cuz it will cause u to choke. Church folk despise such truth but here goes. Now we all no of the righteousness of the prophets especially the major prophets. They all loved God with all their hearts. And david is obviously a type of the Christ which follows. But those particular psalms prove one thing about David. ok get ready. David will not inherit the kingdom of God in that condition nor that of when he died. What were his last words? Make it bloody? He did not love his enemies in agatha or philo. He was judgmental and asked God to turn from his enemies. Don't remember Christ saying such things about Those who hated Him. David will not come out in the first ressurection. But i have news for u. Nobody prior to Christ giving His holy spirit at pentacost can come out in the first resurrection. They haven't received the holy spirit as of yet. So does that mean the Lake of Fire for Noah and abraham and . . . Well, maybe fire sounds a little extreme. Lets just use light flame. I doubt the judgment will b that extreme. They will have the holy spirit in relatively short order, i think. So now cough and wheeze for a few minutes and rethink ur eternal hell thing. Or don't, its in Gods time. We can keep discussing our contrary theologies, i kinda like defending the truth. Ok u can stop choking now.

Author

Judah's Daughter 2 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Well, the shed blood of Jesus was literal, yet has powerful, Spiritual effect.

I agree about S & G: "No, that was physical fire and physical brimstone. They have the second death yet to come." Indeed.

We have physical examples of the Spiritual all throughout the Bible (i.e. the Feasts of the LORD, even the literal Sabbath Day, a shadow of the reality found in Christ). I find Psalm 69 and 109 excellent chapters in regard to the blotting out of David's wicked enemies:

Who does Christ refer to as the wicked? I am not certain but i would bet they r those who consider themselves righteous under the OT law. Check that for me. Because i don't think He was talking about pagans and pagan teachings not of the jewish law. Again, spiritual is of greater importance than anything physical. Every symbol, even blot and Book of Life r more true than the physical scrolls used to write on in that day. Yes, its all real and true. Just not physical. Gold is physical. Fire is physical, blood of animals is physical. Blood of Christ is spiritual. Book of Life is spiritual. Blotting out names is spiritual, water baptism is even spiritual. But also, God is a consuming fire is spiritual, the Lake of Fire is spiritual and brimstone in the Lake of Fire is spiritual. Now before i hear more about sodom and gamora and u accusing me if calling that their judgment or second death? No, that was physical fire and physical brimstone. They have the second death yet to come.

Author

Judah's Daughter 2 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Hell No, think about what you said, "spiritually i believe the called and chosen start out in the BOL. Thats not everybody. There is no physical book with physical names being blotted out." Now, that's a sly answer because you don't believe there's a "physical" book with "physical" names being blotted out. You DIDN'T state names DON'T get blotted out. How is it the called and chosen "start out" in the BOL and therefore, if only their SPIRITUAL names are in the SPIRITUAL BOL, how is it they get BLOTTED OUT? I provided the Scriptures that show names DO get blotted out - the names of the wicked, not the righteous. So, either the called and chosen become wicked and get blotted out, or the wicked are recorded with the righteous (the called and chosen) from the get-go.

What's the opposite of LIFE, since we're talking about the Book of Life? To be blotted out means, "Depart from Me, for I NEVER knew you." (Mat 7:23; 25:41). Interesting, that in the account of that "certain rich man" in Hades, he had no name; on the other hand, Abraham, Moses and that "certain beggar", Lazarus did. And Jesus knew "the prophets" also mentioned as such (Luke 16). Seems to me, even demons don't know the names of the damned, only the righteous (Acts 19:15). I find it noteworthy that Jesus had to ask the demons at Gerasenes what their name was (Mark 5:9). And, did you notice Jesus only spoke to the thief on the cross that believed in Him and never said a word to the unbelieving, mocking thief (Luke 23:43)? Does He know your name, Hell No? I pray so. Blessings.

Hell N0 2 years ago

No, quite the opposite. I refuse to have friendly theological talk over the most evil and blasphamis teaching of all time. I know i'm right about that doctrine. My beief that hellers teach evil is as hard as a diamond. Not purposely. I don't think u r evil. U r trying to help people avoid eternal pain. I get it. But u r wrong. And u probably don't realize that u lie by assuming my thought. No, spiritually i believe the called and chosen start out in the BOL. Thats not everybody. There is no physical book with physical names being blotted out. I know u have to do what u do. But u r blind to the greatest truth ever. But r open to an evil hoax perpetuated to scare the crap out of people.

Author

Judah's Daughter 2 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Not even implied, Hell No? You rationally explain to me how names are found in the Book of Life to be blotted out of the Book of Life. If you believe only the chosen are in the Book of Life, then how is it the names of the chosen can be blotted out at any time?

So, I look forward to your "rational" conclusion. We're having a discussion of theological differences, Hell No, and I don't know why you choose to use such "mean-spirited" language. Hopefully, it's conviction that you may be standing on sand.

Hell N0 2 years ago

There is not one scripture stating that every name starts out in the Book of Life. It is not even implied. Like most church doctrine u made that up. Blottod out is spiritual language as well. Does not mean they were ever "chosen" by God. Symbolically many would have been in the book of life but those would b the many called and the few chosen. I guarantee, such symboligy does not imply that every person that ever lived would have spiritually started off there. Ivc ur blindness oozing all over these pages. I may not b living the way a chosen of God lives but i can c hypocraccy and blindness. It's only temporrary though.

Author

Judah's Daughter 2 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Well, Hell No, Israel (Jacob) was called "chosen" in the Old Testament, yet God said to them in Ezek 18:32-32 "Put all your rebellion behind you, and find yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O people of Israel? I don't want you to die, says the Sovereign LORD. Turn back and live!" Wait, He doesn't want (will) them to die - but will they? Sounds to me like the CHOICE is up to them, Hell No.

We are given a CHOICE. Jesus died for the whole world. Everyone's names start out in the Book of Life and are blotted out because of man's own CHOICE. We are not predestined for hell or heaven. The Lamb slain was predestined. The propitiation for our sin - sin for all time. The Way is One and His name is Jesus. It is by faith in Him, trusting in Him and living for Him by the power of His Spirit in us (invited in by us) we endure and are saved. The "chosen" (the elect) are explained in Romans 11. Not all literal Israel will be saved, but all of Spiritual Israel will be saved. Amen.

Hell N0 2 years ago

U cant choose God without being chosen. And every choice we make is caused. My God this is an easy concept for me to c. Y is it hard for the world? Because God wants it that way for now.

Author

Judah's Daughter 2 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Hi there, Hell No -- true, God doesn't make us sin; however, he will give us over to our own desires, as our flesh wars against the Spirit (Rom 7 & 8). We can rebel; we have the choice - He gave us choice. Sure, we can't, in and of ourselves, overcome our propensity to sin and that's why we need a Savior. We need His Spirit and need to choose to submit to His guidance and ask forgiveness and turn from our own wickedness by His power. He gave us this power to overcome.

Now, in His Sovereignty, He does use even our rebellion for His purpose. Consider Jonah. He rebelled against God's directive to go to Nineveh. He hated those wicked people who enslaved Israel. But, did you ever consider the ship he boarded was full of pagans? Only when he convinced them his God was causing the life-threatening storm and to throw him overboard would save their lives, did they see this and repented from their paganism and believed in Jonah's God.

Those are my thoughts. Blessings.

Hell N0 2 years ago

God doesnt make us sin. He doesn't have to. We sin voluntarilly. But we do not have a free will. The fact that God hardens anybodies heart prooves that will is never free of cause or inspiration which is a lesser form of cause. Causing is not making. It's still a sin regardless of the cause. Even our most planned out acts of sin are not free choices. The fact that somethings drives us to want it prooves that there is cause.

Author

Judah's Daughter 4 years agofrom Roseville, CA

It is difficult to be 'brief' with my response to all your scriptural references/questions, so this is a bit lengthy, childofYHWH:

Regarding Rom 9:11 - Who are the elect? If you read Rom 11 you will see that God, as the Betrothed Husband to Israel, chose Her to be His Bride, which is called the Shiddukhin. The Bride must accept and sign the marriage contract (Ketubah), which Israel did at Mt. Sinai (Ex 19:8). The Bride price (Mohar) was predestined from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8; Heb 9:26). As the betrothed (Hos 2:19-20), Israel must remain faithful to Her Groom, which of course, ended up with her being given a certificate of divorce (Jer 2:2), though declaring Himself to yet be Her Husband (Jer 2:14). Whether or not natural-born Israel will attend the Wedding Feast of the Lamb is yet to be seen.

What was one of the main reasons for the Laws of Moses (i.e. purification, killing adulterers, not marrying foreign wives, etc.)? The Messiah would be born through the descendants of Isaac. Abraham and Sarah were of the pure bloodline of Shem, while Hagar the mother of Ishmael was a foreign wife of Abraham. Jacob followed the Law not to marry foreign wives, thus Leah was the mother of the 10 tribes and Rachael the mother of the other 2 tribes. Esau married foreign wives. God foreknew the decisions of Jacob and Esau. He didn’t force Hagar to become the mother of Ishmael; He didn’t force Esau to marry a foreign wife. The descendants of Hagar (Arabs) persecute the descendants of Isaac (Jews) even to this day (Gal 4:29) and Herod, the king at the time Jesus was crucified, was a descendant of Esau, an Edomite.

It was not until after Christ’s death and resurrection that non-Israelites (Gentiles or Goyem) were able to be grafted into the Bride of Christ (Eph 2:12-13, Acts 18:6; John 10:16). This explains Acts 2:39 “For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God SHALL CALL.” Eph 2:13 tells us this is only possible by the BLOOD of Christ. And who shall the LORD call? John 12:32 “"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to Myself." 1 Tim 4:10 “we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.” Those who believe are those who, like Israel, agree to the Covenant in Christ, who has already paid the Mohar.

God did choose specific prophets and His disciples, yes. This is what John 15:16 is about. However, there were some other disciples that chose to follow Him that abandoned Him (John 6:66). Jesus even called Judas, a ‘devil’, who was an Edomite! Again, this goes back to his rebellious father, Esau! Paul, on the other hand was a Benjamite (of Jacob and Rachel). He was of the Covenant Bride…”a chosen vessel to Me”.

Let’s talk about the vessels of honor and dishonor. Notice in 2 Tim 2:20 all vessels referenced are in A LARGE HOUSE (the same House): “Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.” This is not speaking of the saved and the unsaved, nor a chosen/rejected scenario. Rather, some of the saved will accomplish great, honorable things, and others lesser things. All are usable unto the House of God. Look at John the Baptist, for instance in Luke 7:28 “I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Regarding 2 Tim 2:24-26, let’s just go back to vs. 21 “Therefore, if anyone cleanses HIMSELF from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.” In vs. 25 “In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth and they may COME TO THEIR SENSES and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held CAPTIVE by him to do his will.” you cannot declare that since God grants repentance, no one can repent by his own choosing! If that were so, we wouldn’t have verses such as Ezekiel 33:11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that THE WICKED TURN FROM HIS WAY and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?” Nor can you declare only SOME can repent, while others cannot! Look at Acts 17:30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that ALL people EVERYWHERE should repent,”

Lydia, in Acts 16:14 was a worshiper of God, which resulted in God opening her heart to receive Paul’s message.

Romans 9:20-24 is the same message found in Ephesians 2:8-9. In other words, we cannot be saved by our own works without faith. Vs. 16 aligns with Rom 6:16 “Do you not know that when YOU PRESENT YOURSELVES to someone as SLAVES FOR OBEDIENCE, you are SLAVES of the one whom YOU OBEY, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?” Once we make that choice, the spirit of the F/father we choose works in us H/his will. (Phil 2:13; John 8:44).

There is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE (Rom 3:10; Mat 19:17 – this tells us who Jesus is). It is by His grace we are SAVED through faith (believing). Calvinists will say the GIFT mentioned in this Eph 2:9 is faith, rather than salvation (justification) – see Rom 3:24. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the spoken word (rhema) of Christ (Rom 10:17) and for this reason, we are commissioned to “Go into all the world”, beginning with the chosen Bride (the Jews) – Acts 1:8. In Acts 2:17, we see the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy (Joel 2:28) that God’s Spirit would be poured out upon ALL FLESH in these last days (Heb 1:2). Now, there is a ‘gift of faith’, which is a spiritual gift (as are the others) given to those already justified (saved) by faith (1 Cor 12:9). The Spirit, the Giver of these gifts, is our initial GIFT (Acts 2:38) whereby we obtain these resulting gifts severally, as He wills [1 Cor 12:11 - 1014 boulomai I will, intend, desire, wish].

John 1:3 confirms that it is not of our own doing (works of the flesh) that we are BORN AGAIN of the Spirit. Just as a child is born of the flesh by the union of his/her parents, spiritual birth comes by the union of Christ and His Bride (the accepting of the Covenant (Ketubah) and faithfulness to that Covenant ~ submission to the Groom.

Eph 1:4-5 – It is God’s will (2307 Theléma an act of will, will; plur: wishes, desires) for ALL to be SAVED, for EVERYONE is a creation of Him and He is the Savior of ALL men, especially (namely, particularly) of those who believe (faith). This is proven by the mere fact that ALL names start out in the Book of Life and can be BLOTTED OUT (Ex 32:33; Deut 29:20; Ps 9:5, 69:28; Rev 3:5).

2 Pet 3:9 confirms “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing [1014 boulomai I will, intend, desire, wish] for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance.” While you can claim this is only spoken to the 12 tribes of Israel, scattered throughout the nations, that would then exclude you and me, wouldn’t it? And if these are God’s chosen, they have no need to repent, nor fear of perishing, according to Calvinism.

Rom 9:14 proves the point that Esau received the inheritance he chose, for he threw his inheritance of being the first-born away for the sake of food (Gen 25:29-33; Phil 3:19); while Jacob desired the inheritance of the first-born and achieved it. We can then compare this to Rom 11:17 “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.” God is not unfair, nor is He unrighteous in His judgments or reward.

childofYHWH 4 years ago

The scriptures say ..

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done good or evil, that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand, not of works, but of him that CALLS;)

Rom 9:11

For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God SHALL CALL.

Acts 2:39

Speaking to the disciples, Jesus said:

You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you ..

John 15:16

On the road to Damascus, did Paul choose Jesus? Did he make Jesus appear to him? Jesus crashes in on Paul's world and reveals Himself to him. Jesus says of Paul to Ananias ..

.. Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to Me ..

Acts 9

God is the Potter. He chooses and forms some to honor and some to dishonor. Honor for those like Jacob and all those he has called and given the gift of faith and repentence to (See 2 Tim 2:24-26 and Acts 16:14). But dishonor to Pharaoh, Esau, Judas and others of His election/choosing. He form vessels of wrath and vessels of glory ..

(See Rom 9:20-24)

So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.

Rom 9:16

Which were born, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.

John 1:13

According as He has CHOSEN us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD ... Having PREDESTINATED US ... according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL.

Eph 1:4-5

We are in Christ according to who's will? God's will ..

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For those who choose to serve God, Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

For those who choose to serve the Adversary of God, John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Author

Judah's Daughter 4 years agofrom Roseville, CA

childofYHWH ~ This hub deals with "For the scripture said to Pharaoh, Even for this purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." Regarding "It was said to her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" I have a hub for that, too: "God's Soverignty: Jacob & Esau" https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Gods-Sove...

Now, Satan was created to be the Adversary. Some think he started out as an angel who rebelled against God. I do not see in scripture that he ever was an angel. Surely, the third of the angels that were cast out of heaven with him made the choice to follow him and rebel against God. And those who chose to sin with the daughters of men in the days of Noah are already in chains of darkness, until the great day of their judgment to the Lake of Fire.

There is only One HOLY, unworthy of wrath and that is God Himself. YHWH, our Creator, has all knowledge, yet by the power of the foreordained Way of salvation, everyone has a choice to repent, accept His grace, forgiveness and mercy, resulting in receiving power (the Holy Spirit) to overcome their sinful, destructive natures, or stay on the path to destruction.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls;) It was said to her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy. For the scripture said to Pharaoh, Even for this purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.

Romans 9:11-18

Author

Judah's Daughter 7 years agofrom Roseville, CA

mjane24, I am blessed that you are blessed! Thank you for your kindness :-) I do pray this hubs helps all who read it for the glory of God!

mjane24 7 years agofrom panabo city

wow its a true story of pharaoh,s life the hardeneth of His heart...its a good that you share it..

this is so wonderfully. lol secretly i feel as if this hub was made just for me. i mean i had often asked other people about whether or not the pharoah had any choice in what he was doing but they always had no idea.now i have a direct answer

Author

Judah's Daughter 7 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Hi brother Davidsonofjesse :-) THANK YOU SO KINDLY! I know those drink of fresh water moments as there's a lot of stale and even poisoned water out there (Mark 16:18) ~ Cheers! God bless you!

Author

Judah's Daughter 7 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Hi brother Artin2010! It's wonderful you came by to read and got blessed! I thank you kindly for your blessing upon me.

Davidsonofjesie 7 years ago

way to go my sister !!! you are a cold drink of water on a hot day

Artin2010 7 years agofrom Northwestern Florida, Gulfcoast

Awesome hub JD, you have a calling to explain the Word/Truth and there is no flaw. Well done good and faithful one. Enjoyed the reading! Gods will be done!!

Thoughts and prayers, pressing forward.

Author

Judah's Daughter 7 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Praise God, fred allen! It's just like that old serpent to come up with a slogan that is actually the opposite of the truth. While that is a carnal statement ("the same sun that melts butter hardens clay"), God is not the sun, but the Son (first of all) AND the Bible says their hearts grew fat (butter). Gather some hardened clay and add some Living Water to it and watch what God can do! "Mold me and make me after Thy will" ~ Amen!

For hubs that deal specifically with Calvinism, you might enjoy "Don't Limit His Love" and the links provided there to others, including "God's Sovereignty: Jacob and Esau" ~ Be blessed!!

fred allen 7 years agofrom Myrtle Beach SC

Fantastic! I have heard it put that the same sun that melts butter hardens clay. If we are to believe in the heart of a loving Father we must never give room to the lie that He decides to keep people from His love. He asked forgiveness for those who nailed Him to a tree. Would it not stand to reason that a true invitation has been given to everyone? Whosever wishes to come may come. Great hub!

Author

Judah's Daughter 7 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Hi allpurposeguru! My guru to the rescue! Thank you for pointing that out. You have helped me to make this hub most accurate :-) Praise God!

Surely, when it comes to the grave, in that context, David wrote in Ps 139:7-8 "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I go up to heaven, you are there; if I go down to the grave, you are there."

Nothing can separate us from the love of God (Rom 8:39). We, however, can reject His love and just as Jesus said on the cross (as the sin of the whole world was placed upon Him), "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?' which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'", hell is total separation from God and His love.

2 Pet 3:9 states, "The Lord is not slow about His promise [return], as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

And Acts 17:30-31 proclaim until then, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

May God bless you abundantly!

Author

Judah's Daughter 7 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Hi Marliza, I am blessed abundantly that God was faithful to answer your question through this hub! Hallelujah! There is a huge movement out there (between Calvinism and Universalism) that pulls this passage and others out of context to claim man has no free will, thus taking all responsibility of the call of God, salvation through faith, and accountability off of them and onto God. God clearly states over and over again in the scriptures that man is "without excuse". He's given us salvation by His grace through faith. It's that simple. People will still struggle with sin, and while some judge themselves unworthy of salvation (Acts 13:46) and think there must be another way or reason they continue to struggle with sin, Rom 7:15-8:1 are a comfort. I love you in the love of the Lord! Continue to be blessed in His Name, and thank you for your prayers of blessing for me!

David Guion 7 years agofrom North Carolina

Another wonderful hub, JD. You have gotten to the heart of the matter. God will never send anyone to hell. He'll let some folks go there if they don't want anything to do with him. And then, assuming that when Jesus descended into hell he left clock time and entered eternity, they'll find him there anyway.

To put it in the vernacular, Pharaoh said in his heart, "I will make myself great by lording it over the Hebrews." And God said, "All right. Be that way. Be that way even when it's obviously not working for you. With or without your cooperation, my will will be done. You can have your way as long as it suits my purposes."

BTW, may I suggest a minor revision? The Pharaoh that did not know Joseph was certainly a later one, put not necessarily the next one. Joseph and Moses are separated by 400 years.

Marliza Gunter 7 years agofrom South Africa

I've asked someone else a week or so ago to answer this question for me, but he ignored me...I then asked Jesus to explain this to me..now I see Jesus chose you to answer me instead of the person I've asked..now I understand..I will thank Jesus even now for working through you...may He bless you for your obedience and observant heart for hearing Him and for being a diligent wonderful work tool in His Loving Hand...Amen..

Author

Judah's Daughter 7 years agofrom Roseville, CA

Thank you, sister Brie ~ from one woman after God's own heart to another :-) Praise God! Luv U bunches!! I had the day off, and the LORD moved. He is so faithful. I pray all who read are blessed by the Lord in a very special way. God bless you!

Brie Hoffman 7 years agofrom Manhattan

JD: You are very wise in the Lord. This is a difficult topic and you did a wonderful job. Nice to see a woman after God's own heart.

Robert E Smith 7 years agofrom Rochester, New York

I am convinced we will see fruit from this ministry my sister or I would stop wasting my time here. I pray for the salvation of everyone who reads this and does not know the Lord. I pray for an edifying of every believer that reads so that person can go out and win someone to the Lord. May it be so.

Author

Judah's Daughter 7 years agofrom Roseville, CA

I never know what the Lord will have me write about next...this time, here we are ~ the hardening of hearts and the reason WHY. I so appreciate your kind and loving comment; confirmation of the Word and our Lord's truth. God desires that everyone come to KNOW HIM, not just "about Him", for people that preach doctrines of error and those who follow them don't KNOW GOD anymore than their teachers do! Salvation is just a prayer away ~ for ALL who will love the truth! Jesus said, "I AM the Truth" (John 14:6) ~ we need to listen for His voice, not the voice of men...the Pied Piper is at it again...

Love you so much, brother. Thank you again, and God bless you!!

Robert E Smith 7 years agofrom Rochester, New York

JD, I have studied God's Word as a Christian for 32 years. I have read through the Bible cover to cover over and over and anyone who has done such things knows that God is loving and merciful in ways that we cannot understand. It never ceases to amaze me that people come to the conclusion that God would ever think to grant people the dignity to make up their own mind and then those very people say that God is somehow unfair in the decision that they themselves made. I heard the story of this murderer of I don't know how many people and him saying. "Why did God make me like this?" Your hub was awesome in showing that God grants to each man his own mind and will when He sets each man in the way that that man has already chosen to go. It's not like God doesn't try to reason a person out of that very decision he has made. He pleads and prods and convicts. He sent His word. He has us annoying servants to scream from the housetops how they need to listen to God before it is too late. Each man is convicted of his own heart. And still proceed to go in that way until God does what must be done. I love the Lord for His graciousness and kindness. I love Him for you and your writing and wisdom that He gives you. Wow.