Well, folks, it looks like this may very well be the official home of the Guild of Archivists, and the GoA itself may well be coming into the limelight a bit more in the near future through MORE. As a result, I think it's high time we shaped this ship up a bit and got everything squared away so that we can operate effectively with the other Guilds in the community. While a lot of the stuff we're going to have to work out is centered around the forums and the Archive, I also want to work out what people think our responsibilities will be in MORE, and what sort of organizational structures should be put in place to facilitate the execution of those responsibilities.

First off, let's talk about responsibilities. Up until now, the GoA - such as it's been - has simply tasked itself with recording every possible piece of information pertaining to the Myst universe in the Archive. In MOUL, that responsibility expanded to include recording chat logs for posterity, and updating the Archive as new information, Ages, and history came out in the game. In that regard, there is still a lot of work to be done, and hopefully with an increased membership, we can get some of the backlog of existing work out of the way before MORE really takes off.

From here we start moving into fuzzier territory. Based on comments made by Rand and RAWA when they gave me the MORE roadmap, which I've taken to the GoMa and GoW, the two Guilds have agreed that the GoA should be included in the upcoming Fan Created Age Licensing (FCAL) panel as an equal partner for the review and approval of story-related content. This panel would be responsible for giving an initial approval to FCA requests, and would be staffed by an equal number of representatives from each Guild (Writers, Maintainers, and Archivists), who would serve limited terms and be chosen by a process that is still in development. In the event that elections or some other form of public selection is chosen, DPWR will need a public forum in which the selection process would take place, and the GoA would need enough members to be able to place people on the panel without compromising the rest of the Guild's operations due to potential conflicts of interest.

In addition to this panel, the GoA will need to develop a system by which Ages that have passed the initial FCAL process will be reviewed to ensure that they comply with the terms of the FCAL they were given. This review system would likely be a general Guild function, wherein a small team would likely give the Age a once-over in conjunction with the Guild of Maintainers inspection team before approving it for public release.

Finally, there will likely need to be some approval method in place for fan-created storylines that don't require the creation of new content for their execution (to use the popular examples, consider J.D. Barnes or Echo McKenzie's roleplaying in MOUL). It is currently unclear whether these stories will need to be submitted to the FCAL panel as with any other request, or whether there would be a more specific Archivist-only (or Archivist-led) approval process for them. I am currently awaiting further information from Cyan regarding their opinion on the matter, and it has been posed to Andy at GoMa and the GoW in general to get their opinions as well.

With these new found responsibilities comes a need for more organized membership criteria. I first want to make one thing very clear: the ability to contribute to the Archive will not be restricted to Archivists only as part of these new policies and responsibilities. The Archive was built on the concept of being open to contributions from anyone in the community, and I would very much like to keep it that way. Beyond that, we're going to need some rules for how people get brought into the Guild itself, and how we decide who will be in charge of individual projects.

My initial thoughts are that anyone who wants to join the Guild can do so. This will afford them marginally increased permissions in the Archive to assist in its maintenance (the ability to protect or remove articles from the Archive, for example), as well as a voice in any open election proceedings to be performed by the Guild, but little else. Guild membership will still be kept separate from forum membership, as I'm sure there are folks here who have no desire to participate in the Guild, but would still like to participate in the forums, and I have no problem with that. For the sake of terminology, let's refer to these entry-level Guild members as Guildsmen (terms subject to change).

The next "level" of Guild membership (this is starting to sound like a PBS pledge drive, but without the awesome tote bags) would be in charge of adding prospective Guild members to the appropriate forum group, as a way to take some of the load off of the Guild Masters in this regard. They would be given extremely limited access to the forum's administration panel for this task, and for this reason, will likely be hand-selected by the Guild Masters for their trustworthiness. Again for the sake of argument, let's call these people Guild Captains.

Thirdly, there would be Guild Masters, who would be in charge of various specific projects within the Archive, or heading up the Archivist arm of a joint GoMa/GoA Age inspection team. These would be go-to people who would help handle the larger operations of the Guild. For example, there might be a Guild Master for the Archive's Timeline project, a Guild Master for the Archive's Chat Log project, and a small handful of additional Masters to help handle inspections, taking assignments on a rotating basis (so if there were 3 Inspection Masters, a Master would get every 3rd Age to come down the pipe). The selection method for these positions would likely vary... Archive Masters could be self-appointing with approval from the rest of the Guild (and/or approval from the other Guild Masters and Grand Master), or elected (though I'm not a fan of electing someone into a position they might not want). Inspection Masters are more likely to be elected through some Guild-wide process given the somewhat more delicate nature of their duties, but in either case, I'm open to suggestions.

Finally, there'd be the Grand Master who, barring any usurpation or abdication of power, would probably be me. Because I hate myself . The Grand Master would be in charge of establishing general policies to be approved by the rest of the Guild (things like how to format Archive articles and such), coordinating the efforts of the Guild Masters, and making sure that the website was properly maintained. Ideally, it would be more of a hands-off role, though I reserve the right to go on an Archive update spree from time to time .

Now, because the Archivists will be operating out of this forum, there's going to need to be some reorganization of this place to accommodate them. I'm also planning on doing some additional forum clean-up, because this place looks pretty dead most of the time due to forums that get used maybe once every few months. Anyway, I'd like to put forth my ideas for a revised forum structure, and get everyone's thoughts on it. This structure won't include hidden forums needed strictly for the operation of the forum itself (like the moderator forum), but any and all Guild-related forums are included in the structure below:

Guild of Archivists

Guild Announcements (with feed to DPWR home page)

Guild Discussion (for discussing organization, new ideas, etc.)

Guild Projects (initially to discuss Archive-specific projects, but can later be adapted to service FCA review projects after the initial FCAL is given by the approval panel)

Myst Series Discussion (consolidated forum for all Myst/Uru game discussion, since the individual forums are pretty much dead as a doornail 90% of the time)

Community Projects

SAPS

Aveara (might remove or archive elsewhere, since this project is decidedly not going anywhere)

Sehv Tsahno (might remove or archive elsewhere, since this one seems to be dead as well)

Forum Support & Feedback

Site / Forum Support & Feedback

Testing Forum

If the Aveara and Sehv Tsahno forum categories get archived, they'll probably be put in a locked section underneath the Testing forum for reference purposes. Also, the Official Communications forum will be merged into the Archive under a new tag, since it doesn't make much sense to keep the two separate if you're looking for information.

I'm more than willing to accept feedback and additional thoughts about anything I've outlined here, because none of it is absolutely, irrevocably set in stone at this point. So, all of you interested in helping out with the GoA, please make your voices heard!

After rooting around the edges of all this Guild stuff, I think I've found my home. Where do I sign up? And do I get to be a Grand Poobah if I actually do some work?

More seriously, here is what I think will be the greatest challenge:

QUOTE(Alahmnat @ Jul 7 2008, 12:46 AM)

Finally, there will likely need to be some approval method in place for fan-created storylines that don't require the creation of new content for their execution (to use the popular examples, consider J.D. Barnes or Echo McKenzie's roleplaying in MOUL). It is currently unclear whether these stories will need to be submitted to the FCAL panel as with any other request, or whether there would be a more specific Archivist-only (or Archivist-led) approval process for them. I am currently awaiting further information from Cyan regarding their opinion on the matter, and it has been posed to Andy at GoMa and the GoW in general to get their opinions as well.

Assuming that some sort of approval process is necessary, defining the criteria for this type of approval will be the hardest, I think. My own opinion is always to keep criteria to a minimum, make them objective, and have as few aspirational terms (e.g., "high quality") as possible. This means an approval process will check for "defects" in the storyline without resorting to critical elements. I might hate the Sydney Austin character, for example, but there should be no basis, IMNHO, for denying Sydney approval if the approval process actually covers something like that.

As for all the Guild stuff, it's your Guild, so structure it as you see fit. Personally, I equate hierarchy with responsibility, which usually means those with more time and willingness to devote that time to the Guild should be placed in the positions of responsibility. Those positions should also be ones of accountability, however, so some system other than mere seniority needs to be established, but that doesn't mean fanatic fealty to democracy. As a former Unelected Dictator, I think I can say with some authority that democracy is often over-rated.

Some additional thoughts: More than the other groups, I think it is extremely important to get clarification from Cyan on this Guild's "approval" process, focusing on exactly what would be covered. Unlike the normal FCAL process, it doesn't really take Cyan approval to think about or write about a Cyan-influenced or Cyan-related character or story, as long as you don't put the results in a public place (although I don't think we ever had a license for the Myst-themed writing contests at MystCommunity). So the "approval" would seem most likely to apply to the actually introduction of a storyline/character into MORE. That conclusion, however, is precisely what needs clarification and/or confirmation.

As you are aware, I am unable to even view the archive while logged into the forum, although it is freely available to guests. I have put some images up in the gallery to complete the Relto Pages entry. Outside of that, I don't think I can be a very productive member of this Guild. And I have been contributing sound effects for the fan ages through the Guild of Writers.

Howdy Zardoz, nice to have you on board . Consider yourself signed up, and we'll see what we can do about that Grand Poobah position .

I agree completely that any story approval criteria need to be strictly objective in nature; tempting as it may be to banish Sydney-quality stories from the Cavern for all eternity, that's not our call to make. As I see it coming together, we'd only be responsible for making sure there wasn't anything defective with the story's adhesion to canon, and those criteria would be provided by Cyan directly. And you are correct, this will apply only to Uru:CC and MORE content that is released in-game.

Andy has also posted on the GoW forums indicating that anything having to do with content development, even live storytelling, will need to be submitted to the FCAL panel as a whole; I suspect the Archivists on the panel will simply be more involved in approving stuff that has no other technical considerations, while a more equal involvement would be required for full-on Age development. The specifics of when just goofing around in-Cavern turns into requiring a FCAL aren't entirely clear, but hopefully the pending guidelines from Cyan will make such situations clearer. Wherever permissible, I'm planning on having these guidelines listed publicly on this site so that there's as little confusion about these matters as humanly possible, and we don't end up with people getting upset when they perhaps shouldn't be (not that some won't get upset anyway, but you can't avoid that ).

Interests:I love all Myst games. I love to travel to new places. I'm an avid reader and I'm quite ecletic in my tastes. My favorite Movie series are Lord of the Rings and Star Wars.

Posted 07 July 2008 - 11:56 AM

It sounds like you got a good start on organization for the GoA. I will help out in any fashion that you need me in.

The forum setup looks simple and concise.

I'm glad that the GoA will be taking a more active role in MORE.

I saw somewhere else, I think on the GoG about History lectures and that sounds like something up our alley. I think it would be interesting to hold lectures in cavern on various topics. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here.

It's great to hear about the GoA playing this sort of role in Uru's future, and I wanted to let you know that I'm interested in helping out. A lot has changed in the DPWR system since I was last here, so I'll need to refamiliarize myself.

Sounds like a good idea to me! I'm in. I'm feeling a bit scattered today, so here are some of my scattered comments.

I'd also like to see some sort of story support for non-canon stories, though I'm not sure what that sort of thing would be. Cyan seems to have a centralized story canon in mind (though it wouldn't surprise me if there two levels of canon - Cyan canon and Guild canon) and that'll be the focus. But there are perfectly valid creative endeavors that fall outside of that. I dunno what the Guild would be able to do for that sort of thing, but I'd at least see the Guild be friendly to such things, if not capable of providing support. Just a random thought.

QUOTE("Zardoz")

Some additional thoughts: More than the other groups, I think it is extremely important to get clarification from Cyan on this Guild's "approval" process, focusing on exactly what would be covered.

This is incredibly important. Story concerns in Uru have always been incredibly vague, and everyone has a different idea of what 'story' means. We need a very clear idea of what Cyan feels story means, and what this Guild might be potentially doing in regards to it.

We also need to know what direction Cyan wants story to head. Does Cyan want a centralized multi-layered story that extends canon? Do they want one that operates as a sort of B-string canon that they can draw from or adjust as business needs or other Uru games require? Or do they want several different story threads (shared world but divergent narrative storytelling)? Or combinations thereof?

QUOTE("Alahmnat")

Based on comments made by Rand and RAWA when they gave me the MORE roadmap, which I've taken to the GoMa and GoW, the two Guilds have agreed that the GoA should be included in the upcoming Fan Created Age Licensing (FCAL) panel as an equal partner for the review and approval of story-related content.

If one of the things that needs to be checked for is conflict between various fan-created storylines, then the Guild is going to have to keep an up-to-date archive of all approved fan-content. That could be put much on the shoulders of the authors of the content to update the Archive as appropriate, but they'll have to be oversight on that just from an administrative perspective.

QUOTE("Alahmnat")

My initial thoughts are that anyone who wants to join the Guild can do so.

I'd agree with that. If you show up and do archiving work, you shoud have the right to call yourself a Guild member. (On a purely semantic note, I'd suggest that one use the name Guild Member instead of Guild Cadet - Gulid Cadet sounds like a person is just an apprentice or something.) Those who show merit and work hard move up in authority, responsibility and accountability. I'm all for a meritocracy

For various projects that require Guild Captains or Guild Masters, I'd suggest you just ask for volunteers on a project basis and choose from those who seem interested.

QUOTE("Zardoz")

This means an approval process will check for "defects" in the storyline without resorting to critical elements. I might hate the Sydney Austin character, for example, but there should be no basis, IMNHO, for denying Sydney approval if the approval process actually covers something like that.

I'd generally agree here. We can't try to judge on subjective criteria. However, I might suggest that we provide some sort of mechanism for public review and comment on storylines as they progress. People can show support for those storylines they like and 'feedback' for those they do not. Plus, I could see the Guild publishing "best practice" documents, or hosting best practice documents from various individuals so that authors of story can pick and choose from those ideas and experience.

I'd also suggest we work up a set of terminology to aid in discussion of story. Just what is 'story' as opposed to 'content'? How does a Writer differ from (for lack of a better term) an Author? Where can and do the above concepts overlap? What exactly is Canon? Etc.

Based on comments made by Rand and RAWA when they gave me the MORE roadmap, which I've taken to the GoMa and GoW, the two Guilds have agreed that the GoA should be included in the upcoming Fan Created Age Licensing (FCAL) panel as an equal partner for the review and approval of story-related content.

If one of the things that needs to be checked for is conflict between various fan-created storylines, then the Guild is going to have to keep an up-to-date archive of all approved fan-content. That could be put much on the shoulders of the authors of the content to update the Archive as appropriate, but they'll have to be oversight on that just from an administrative perspective.

I figured that as fan-created content gets built into Uru, we can also build it into the Archive at the same time, perhaps tagged with identifying, um... tags for quick and easy reference.

QUOTE("BladeLakem")

(On a purely semantic note, I'd suggest that one use the name Guild Member instead of Guild Cadet - Gulid Cadet sounds like a person is just an apprentice or something.) Those who show merit and work hard move up in authority, responsibility and accountability. I'm all for a meritocracy

Yeah, that's actually my bad... I was trying to name the various ranks, ended up half-reorganizing things, and forgot to switch Guild Cadets back to Guildsmen/Guild Members. I should perhaps fix that .

Gadren, nice to see you around these parts again. Feel free to prod around in the Archive and get a feel for how it works.

Jenny, I like the idea of history lectures in-Cavern. I'd considered setting up something like that in MOUL between episodes, but never had the time or general interest from the rest of the community to really make the effort. On a related note, I'd love to bust out my Ae'Gura Walking Tour marker mission again (though it would have to be re-created from scratch, a proposition I'm not entirely thrilled by ), and make additional history-oriented tours through other areas of the game as appropriate (I was working on one for Bevin, but never got it finished).

GoC uses Apprentice for new members just coming in and for those just wanting to be associated. I expect to use a liaison title for cross guild associations. Also, something for say a Guild Master or Grand Master from another guild that is working on a project at GoC. Someone that has doen a volume of work or made significant contributions in another guild does not necessaily have to start at the bottom when helping another guild.

Because we use UO as our forum, forum membership does not get tied in with Guild membership. You will have to decide how members sign up. I added my 2 cents for the GoFA here: http://artists.grey-...t...php?f=2&t=1

I think scholasitic titles would be nice for this guild... just opinion. For many the D'ni Era discriptions of the guilds and titles are important. DPWR is in a position to provide that take on titles.

I am using the Archive as a repository for GoC history. It can take some time to dig through years of posts at UO to get the pertinante information. Posting it with links in the Archive makes future recovery much easier. Also, having lost our main web site this year (check threads on Missing Grand Master Aiden) I like having a secondary location for information to reside.

I do like this site and forum and am very impressed with it. I would like to see more color contrast between background and text in the postings. Otherwise I consider it one of the best looking around. Plus I LOVE the editing tools.

Another random thought: Anonymity. I believe the GoA process should allow for anonymity of story authors for any public information released (not in the application itself). Maintaining immersion is often enhanced if we do not know who is behind the curtain, and so allowing storytellers to remain anonymous (if they so desired) could enhance the power of fan-based stories. This would require something like a pseudo-NDA for anyone reviewing a story-related FCAL application.

I haven't been around much anywhere since MOUL closed so I could finish my dissertation before it reopened (no, I didn't know it would, but just in case it did). I've done the heavy intellectual lifting, and am a bit more free to do Uru things. Right now I have fewer opinions on the policies for storytelling than I do storyline ideas, but I'm sure that will change as I keep up on the dialog. As I can I'd like to help with some of the archiving, too. It may take a while for me to be very active, but I'll start with what I can do.

I think asking for people to gain approval for storylines like Echo Mackenzie and JD is a bit silly, if it doesn't tread on cannon then it doesn't need to be worried about, otherwise you're opening the floodgates for every player who wants to be IC.

I agree with Zardoz on anonymity, I've never wanted to share story aspects before they have played out which is why I never had registered characters on the whole IDEA thing. Personally I feel it bad enough having to forced into sharing details as it is. But then I'm of the opinion that I am quite capable for regulating myself I know whats ok what isn't and I step across the line now and then but in a way which has no baring on the canon of the universe (a leave no trace kind of principle).

I think asking for people to gain approval for storylines like Echo Mackenzie and JD is a bit silly, if it doesn't tread on cannon then it doesn't need to be worried about, otherwise you're opening the floodgates for every player who wants to be IC.

Unfortunately, if the Maintainers or us will be checking for conflicts between various fan-stories, then that is precisely what we are being asked to do - approve the inclusion of story into a shared reality. Otherwise, conflicts don't matter.

If we are being asked to simply make sure that fan storylines do not conflict with canon, that's a very different issue. That means that there can be many different narrative continuities, provided they don't conflict with canon. But we need to know which direction Cyan is heading in or no one can effectively handle story.

which I've taken to the GoMa and GoW, the two Guilds have agreed that the GoA should be included in the upcoming Fan Created Age Licensing (FCAL) panel as an equal partner for the review and approval of story-related content.

Excuse me. No you haven't presented anything to the Guild of Writers. You've told the public how it would be on the public part of the forum. We (the Guild of Writers) have in no way agreed to any of this tripe. In our (meaning the GoW and the GoMa) initial discussions with Cyan, there was no indication any other presence would be involved (nor was there any mention of contact with any of you by neither Chogon nor RAWA), and in fact, the duties you are discussing here were going to be performed by the Maintainers. Thus, I honestly see no need to introduce a third layer of complexity into the process and this volatile situation. On a related note, if your "Guild" were to become part of the process without any indication from Cyan in the initial discussions, then it would give Billy a basis to form the Guild of Adult Entertainment to attempt to get support to be on the panel, blah blah blah... A can of worms we don't want to open.

Whatever, I see no point in this whatsoever.

PS. This forum is hard to read, so if I don't reply, it's not that I don't want to read your response, it's that I can't.

Cyan said to the GoW and GoMa that they wanted them to do certain things. Rand said to Alahmnat directly that he wanted the Guild of Archivists to help with the process, an idea which the Guild Masters of the Maintainers seem to have enthusiastically embraced. It sounds like everyone involved is acting genuinely here from what they know of the situation. But it sounds like we have some mixed signals, both from Cyan and floating around in the community.

How about this? Let's have someone talk to Cyan to find out which way they want things to go from here. I'm sure things can be worked out.

This is a really insane situation and my post probably came off a bit harsh. I did (well, actually, Andy did at a few of my statements) ask for confirmation that Alahmnat has indeed contacted Rand and RAWA and what it means for us....

Waiting for Cyan may be the best option... Maybe we won't be waiting forever.

Since Blade has already said basically what I was going to say (and probably more nicely, too), I will defer further commentary on the issue of my conversation with Rand and RAWA until after I hear back from RAWA, as I've asked permission to quote an email that he sent to me in response to my own inquiry about the mixed signals given off by Cyan regarding GoA's participation in the FCAL panel. It's not exactly an official comment, but it does at least address this problem, albeit somewhat vaguely (hey, it's RAWA, what'd you expect), and I hope it will calm the waters a bit to have it in a public place.

However, even if the GoA doesn't end up being involved in the FCAL panel, I strongly believe - and have since the beginning of MOUL - that the GoA has a role to fill in the Cavern: recording the history that we create for ourselves, and presenting the richness of D'ni's own long history to other explorers to further their understanding of the game's backstory and the increase level of immersion they might gain as a result. If for that motive alone, this Guild deserves some place in MORE, and I intend to make that happen.

As a final disclaimer, I have no interest in power or control over vast swaths of MORE (or even small corners of MORE)... I just don't have the time or energy to dedicate to that kind of empire . What I'm doing, I do because it interests me, and because I want to share it with others and help make MORE the best thing it can be, which I would hope could describe the motivation of anybody actively pursuing involvement in this game beyond acting as an explorer.

I am reading forum posts to catch up. I am a tad confused about which guild is the *Hawtch-Hawtcher Bee-Watcher who is watchering what? I guess the archivers are watchering storytellers, because we are considering whether canon is, or is not necessary to use - oh dearie .

I do think Blade is onto something when he suggested the word story should be more or less defined by Cyan. In the past the storytellers at CCN relayed straight/edited news, or told story as tale/drama/comedy written by the explorer. Our aim was not to mess with the canon unless we used it for lighthearted satire. This is not to say, we didn't have detractors who thought what we did wasn't funny. Like circus performers we moved on and ignored our detractors, unless their criticism was good fodder for more story - always keeping in mind that Cyan (who we stayed in contact with) might pull our plugs.

In this new universe of storytelling (dabbled in last summer), there are means that Cyan could use to communicate with storytellers that will not inhibit creativity or give the surprise away. These ways include seeding characters and one line plots/directions to a group of NDA types, or letting the guild members decide where to go, and get the ok in the aftermath. I loathe categories, but it appears there will be a need for some.

And although I like the fodder a guild war affords me (the tale-teller), at this point I am at waiting to see if Cyan is going to distribute or sell blocks and stable empty landscapes. If they are not going to make blocks and landscapes available to the entire community, I hope some enterprising age writer will make a cottage industry out of selling block shapes and empty stable landscapes. I don't choose to start from scratch. I desire to start in the middle to illustrate my age or explorer stories. I am getting fairly fair at creating textures that leads the reader down an Uncle Wiggly path, even when they are not reading about, or running into my live characters. In other words they get the picture that makes lateral storytelling less difficult to follow. The learning curve for block and texture manipulation is about 3 to 6 months. Making scripts and landscapes stable could be a lifetime relationship, and I am already married. I need to establish a good rapport with 3D Max age builders (albeit I expect to pay for what I get - going rate at this time is anywhere from $.15 for basic shapes and a $1.00 or more for moving water).

Of course all of this will need to be worked out, nailed down, haggled over, and trumped up. I am readying my proposal to Cyan now about the blocks and the 2D part that I believe is a big benefit to telling a story. I know that some of you feel immersion is lost, if the story comes out of 3D, and so I once thought as well. Now I believe there is a way to work out the immersion issues, at least until the 3D problems with the KI and logistics can be remedied.

Ruby*Thanks go to Dr. Suess for making language universal (Did I Ever Tell You How Lucky You Are?, published 1973). I read this book to my class in September and May of every year. Third graders are very aware of what it means to be watched and lucky Me is too.