Now you're changing the subject... Like I said, RJ provided real reasons for the disparities in arrest rates... And "possession with intent to distribute" is very different than possession... and quantity and paraphernalia have something to do with it as well.

How am I changing the subject?

wjb21ndtown wrote:

You weren't applying any sort of "line of thinking" that I was using. I never said that any race creed or color shouldn't be allowed to do anything illegal, nor be precluded from doing anything legal. All I DID say was that IF one sect of society does engage in illegal activity more so than others, they're going to be punished in a disproportionate way. Similarly, the law takes advantage of and punishes differently those that choose to be uneducated. If one sect of society chooses to remain uneducated, it's going to be disadvantaged as such.

Allow me to quote myself, perhaps you missed it:

Quote:

What you seem to be presenting are stereotypes. Are you advocating that our laws should mirror stereotypes?

in reference to your comment:

Quote:

And RJ correctly pointed out, that a minority is more likely to have sold the drugs, where as a white person is more likely to have purchased a small quantity for personal consumption.

As I said, it appears that you're projecting a stereotype; I was taking your projection and carrying on to other stereotypes.

You show me where I'm suggesting that the law should do anything. You are saying that the law promotes racism, I'm saying it doesn't. End of story. I'm not saying that the law should mirror anything. Wherever you get that from is beyond me.

I'm not projecting any sort of stereo type. You're saying the law is racist, I'm saying that the actions of minorities cause them, as a group, to be treated differently under the law. As individuals they're all treated the same.

I'm generally in court 3 days a week. I defend people of all races, creeds and colors. The sentences, charges, etc. are very similar. What differs the most is the amount of minorities charged, and the amount of minorities committing offenses.

June 25th, 2013, 4:16 pm

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12488

Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report

regularjoe12 wrote:

a couple of thoughts here:

I have NEVER known anyone to get busted for having pot on them and being let go..no matter what color they were. Based on what you said in a previous post you could be addressing a problem with the cops themselves profiling (Which would be morally wrong) and THAT is where the racism would lie, not in the law itself.

We discussed this, albeit briefly, earlier in this thread:

Wags wrote:

The illegality & race angle was covered above. That said, let me ask you a couple questions: Does racism exist in this country? If so, is it too far-fetched that someone holding this viewpoint and in a position of authority (police, lawyer, judge, counselor, etc) might in someway use their position in a less-than ideal manner? Do you think its at all possible that a traffic stop could occur for simply 'driving while non-white'?

For the record, and I think I've said this here before, I have personally experienced 'white favoritism' by police. When I lived on the 'south side' (barrio) the police were constantly on patrol; now living in a rural mostly white neighborhood, which happens to have a police substation less than a mile away, I rarely see any police, unless they're running back to the substation that is.

That being said, what difference, if any, does it make if the 'law' itself or the way it's being applied disproportionately affected a segment of society?

regularjoe12 wrote:

And the other thought I have is about your discussion on stereotypes. Stereotyping is wrong dont get me wrong, but they exist for a reason. it is extremly rare for a stereotype to pop up and there not be a good foundation of truth to it. It's wrong to say "all blacks sell drugs" for many MANY reasons. But is it wrong to say the majority of people who sell drugs are black? sadly stereotypes are born of truth then greatly exagerated.

I have NEVER known anyone to get busted for having pot on them and being let go..no matter what color they were. Based on what you said in a previous post you could be addressing a problem with the cops themselves profiling (Which would be morally wrong) and THAT is where the racism would lie, not in the law itself.

We discussed this, albeit briefly, earlier in this thread:

Wags wrote:

The illegality & race angle was covered above. That said, let me ask you a couple questions: Does racism exist in this country? If so, is it too far-fetched that someone holding this viewpoint and in a position of authority (police, lawyer, judge, counselor, etc) might in someway use their position in a less-than ideal manner? Do you think its at all possible that a traffic stop could occur for simply 'driving while non-white'?

For the record, and I think I've said this here before, I have personally experienced 'white favoritism' by police. When I lived on the 'south side' (barrio) the police were constantly on patrol; now living in a rural mostly white neighborhood, which happens to have a police substation less than a mile away, I rarely see any police, unless they're running back to the substation that is.

That being said, what difference, if any, does it make if the 'law' itself or the way it's being applied disproportionately affected a segment of society?

regularjoe12 wrote:

And the other thought I have is about your discussion on stereotypes. Stereotyping is wrong dont get me wrong, but they exist for a reason. it is extremly rare for a stereotype to pop up and there not be a good foundation of truth to it. It's wrong to say "all blacks sell drugs" for many MANY reasons. But is it wrong to say the majority of people who sell drugs are black? sadly stereotypes are born of truth then greatly exagerated.

to the first part, yes I would say there is a significant difference. the people enforcing the law can be replaced by better people....the law does not differenciate, its people who do. if people are discriminating then those people need to be replaced...holding the law accountable for flawed individuals is not a solution IMO.

And to the 2nd part..I cant agree with the article in question. People from France are stereotyped as dicks...every person I have ever met from France was a dick so while i was not a part of that study, my own personal study disagrees with their findings

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

June 25th, 2013, 5:36 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report

Defacto vs dejure discrimination... Yes it makes a difference... One is illegal, one is legal per se.

June 25th, 2013, 5:42 pm

TruckinMack

Lionbacker Rehab Guru

Joined: January 26th, 2006, 9:08 pmPosts: 1272

Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report

TheRealWags wrote:

That said, I see racism first hand on a regular basis (sadly). People move out of the way, look at someone with disdain, speak rudely, etc, etc,

Your criteria for racism is beyond me. Grow a callous. Racism? A dirty look? A rude affect? Puhleeze. Even with your 8 year old girl standard of racism, I see far more Black on White racism... and almost no one in the media says a word.

_________________Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.

June 25th, 2013, 6:25 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report

TruckinMack wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

That said, I see racism first hand on a regular basis (sadly). People move out of the way, look at someone with disdain, speak rudely, etc, etc,

Your criteria for racism is beyond me. Grow a callous. Racism? A dirty look? A rude affect? Puhleeze. Even with your 8 year old girl standard of racism, I see far more Black on White racism... and almost no one in the media says a word.

You aren't kidding... There are so many "black only" organizations, TV shows, TV stations, colleges, caucuses, programs etc. it's ridiculous. You HAVE to be a "minority company" to do work for the City of Detroit... I don't know how the hell that's allowed to fly.

June 25th, 2013, 7:42 pm

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12488

Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report

TruckinMack wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

That said, I see racism first hand on a regular basis (sadly). People move out of the way, look at someone with disdain, speak rudely, etc, etc,

Your criteria for racism is beyond me. Grow a callous. Racism? A dirty look? A rude affect? Puhleeze. Even with your 8 year old girl standard of racism, I see far more Black on White racism... and almost no one in the media says a word.

I was simply listing the things I see. If someone doesn't like someone, they tend to avoid them, no? Don't like the cashier? Move to another line, even if its longer. Hence the 'move away' statement. Don't like the race of someone? Make a snide, derogatory remark. Hence 'speak rudely."

That said, what is YOUR criteria?

_________________

Quote:

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

June 26th, 2013, 1:10 am

TruckinMack

Lionbacker Rehab Guru

Joined: January 26th, 2006, 9:08 pmPosts: 1272

Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report

wjb21ndtown wrote:

Defacto vs dejure discrimination... Yes it makes a difference... One is illegal, one is legal per se.

HS Batman! I had to look up 'de facto' and 'de jure'.

Who says folks on the Internet aint erudite as all hell?

_________________Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.

June 26th, 2013, 9:41 am

TruckinMack

Lionbacker Rehab Guru

Joined: January 26th, 2006, 9:08 pmPosts: 1272

Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report

TheRealWags wrote:

That said, what is YOUR criteria?

Simple question, may require a bit more thought. Off the top of my head, Any physical assault related to race.Any verbal assault meant to emotionally injure or intimidate, (as opposed to verbal or visual language meant to show displeasure).Any act (burning a cross for instance) meant to emotionally injure or intimidate.Denying of employment or income due to race, and any collusion that relates to same.Denying home rental or ownership due to race, and any collusion that relates to same.Falsifying court testimony (perjury) or journalistic reporting (libel/slander) due to race.

I could probably broaden this definition further, but it seems a good start.

_________________Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.

June 26th, 2013, 9:49 am

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12488

Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report

TruckinMack wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

That said, what is YOUR criteria?

Simple question, may require a bit more thought. Off the top of my head, Any physical assault related to race.Any verbal assault meant to emotionally injure or intimidate, (as opposed to verbal or visual language meant to show displeasure).Any act (burning a cross for instance) meant to emotionally injure or intimidate.Denying of employment or income due to race, and any collusion that relates to same.Denying home rental or ownership due to race, and any collusion that relates to same.Falsifying court testimony (perjury) or journalistic reporting (libel/slander) due to race.

I could probably broaden this definition further, but it seems a good start.

I would concur that those are examples of racist actions.

Per Merriam-Webster:

Quote:

Definition of RACISM

1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race2: racial prejudice or discrimination

Definition of DISCRIMINATION

1 a : the act of discriminating b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently2: the quality or power of finely distinguishing3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment <racial discrimination>— dis·crim·i·na·tion·al adjective

Considering these definitions, it seems that any discriminatory action which is based upon race would indeed qualify as racism. That said, I feel as though the examples I provided could be construed as racism if these actions occur because of someone's race. Thoughts?

_________________

Quote:

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

June 26th, 2013, 11:41 am

TruckinMack

Lionbacker Rehab Guru

Joined: January 26th, 2006, 9:08 pmPosts: 1272

Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report

TheRealWags wrote:

Per Merriam-Webster:

Quote:

Definition of RACISM

1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Quote:

Considering these definitions, it seems that any discriminatory action which is based upon race would indeed qualify as racism. That said, I feel as though the examples I provided could be construed as racism if these actions occur because of someone's race. Thoughts?

I've no desire to become the thought police and call out racist behavior for what one thinks, or even discusses in a polite context. I can easily make a case for differences in White v Black athletes, and which is superior, and why. Is not, or should not, be a concern of racism.

I've no concern at all about veiled racism, and would strongly encourage people to keep their racism veiled, rather than act out on it. A civilized society is capable with a multitude of attitudes without mandating an acceptance of those attitudes.

_________________Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.