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you two guys never stop to surprise me. You certainly have a good grip on a lot of subjects. All our readers out there will have a solid educational background, when we eventually finish here at psychobabbling.

Dont worry PeopleS, next episode of The story of Elena is ready for saturday evening.

Cit. PeopleS:

"Maybe, "anti-matter" is chaos as you describe it?"

Nope. Antimatter is structured, organised, which is the definition of cosmos. We know next to nothing (at least not from science), about the "true" chaos. Only some approximations made from what chaos there seems to exist inside cosmos. The only people really knowing what goes on outside cosmos are buddhistic monks, yogis, some very advanced shamans and those eating illegal mushrooms and such substances. Some of them being totally nuts, and some very wise. But as they generally aren't too keen on centralisation, the alpha-males (who loves it, at least when they themselves are at the top of the system) do what they can to shut them up. Why do you really think, that US authorities have tried to stop the native american church? Because a minority of native americans were in risk of being turned into drug-users. This is an ideological war, my friend. And in case anybody wonders: I'm very much in favor of LSD, Mescaline, mushrooms and cannabis being used under controlled forms. I'm equally against it being out on the streets.

The question of "balance"(/symmetry) in the universe is still an open one. It doesn't even have to be matter, which is unbalanced/asymmetric, it could also be one the forces like gravitation.

"Is this "sheepwalking"? I don't think so. I see it as simply being open to other possibilities. Maybe evrything really can be explained in a mathematical equation as yet to be formulated... maybe it can't?"

You introduced the word sheepwalking, so you have copyrights on it, also how to define it. I could use the word "beliefsystem" instead. Beliefsystems automatically supply you with a set of mental blinkers, so you don't have to bear the terrible burden of thinking for yourself.

In spite of the many various theories floating around at the quantum physicists club, it's not quite so confused, as you put it forward. The fact that we are communicating via a PC demonstrates that. A lot of the things postulated by quantum physics have been pragmatically proved. I'm not a total supporter of science, but it does have it's good points.

As long as Heisenbergs uncertainty principle is valid, nothing can be reduced exclusively to mathematical precision. The clockwork-theory of the universe died app. 50 years ago.

"It's sad to admit that the "sheepwalkers" carry weight with their blind opinions, but that IS an unfortunate part of reality as it currently exists. Again, how to change this line of thought is something I have no answer for."

If we care to do so, we have at least the possibility to change our own lives to a certain degree. Apart from joining our litlle club here and writing very convoluted theories of epistemology somewhere else, my days as a prophet are over. But I'm making some weird experiments with my own life (no drugs implied), and these experiments also change my outlook on the world. Many "important" things I simply don't care about any more.

Ham, without being sure about it, I personally believe, that black holes break down the natural laws, which were created with the Bang.

Without natural laws, no cosmos. This total entropy is what will end the universe eventually, even if the mass in it is to small to make a contraction again. There are a couple of other ways it will collapse.

But don't worry, all of you hopeful young men. You' still have time to go to UA, before doomsday.

Whatever?????? The point that I was making is that science has no answer for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!! Nit-picking over every detail of every word within a generalized statement like "Hawking later dismissed his own theory on black holes", doesn't change the meaning of what was stated, since he DID!

But I'm sure you'll find a way to say he didn't.

And the disappearance of black holes wasn't the "parodox", or the issue. The parodox was the proposed loss of information, which I clearly stated... at least I thought I had.

Whatever?????? The point that I was making is that science has no answer for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!! Nit-picking over evry detail of every word within a generalized statement like "Hawking later dismissed his own theory on black holes", doesn't change the meaning of what was stated, since he DID!

But I'm sure you'll find a way to say he didn't.

Train returns

another PMS attack?!
Boy oh boy!

[xx(]

I don't exactly care about the issue, but [u]you made a precise statement like

quote:He didn't say black holes disappeared.

while mr. Hawking himself seems to say just that they disappear.
i wasn't talking about science in general and that is the only statement i referred to.
Is it true that black holes disappear? What would I know?!

Why are you getting angry at me for, is beyond me.
[:0][8D]

I have no idea what Gene Roddenberry said or wrote, so I just say so...I don't feel any less of a man for that...

Because nit-picking over a single sentence in a mulity paragragh post seems almost like a childish attempt to insert superiority, without making one statement concerning the topic that swede had proposed.

Because nit-picking over a single sentence in a mulity paragragh post seems almost like a childish attempt to insert superiority, without making one statement concerning the topic that swede had proposed.

Train returns

really?
[:0]
so if i understand correctly, whatever [u]you write is a disinterested meaningful contribution, and what I say is off-topic nonsense to appear superior and aloof.[8D]
Well, whatever floats your boat dear...
one can't make just everyone happy at all times...

Biorn Biornssonssonsson certainly didn't waste any time, before he went to visit Elena. But before we can understand, what happens between them, when they meet, a bit on Biorn's background is necessary.

He lives in the northern part of Sweden, far out in the backwoods with 15 miles to the nearest town. The town consists of a combined gas-station, videorental, grocery, garage and an outlet for the swedish boozemonopoly (you have to call 3 days in advance to order from the nearest city 50 miles away). And a few houses. Maybe even four. It's called Tomselillerod, and it can't be found on any map, no matter how small a scale. It probably couldn't be found on a map scale 1:1.

He lives in a logcabin, which could have been quite charming in a rustic way, if it wasn't that the gaps between the logs have been filled with old newspapers instead of the traditional moss, and the roof is made of rusty corrugated plate. He heats the place with a cosy woodstove, and it's really nice to be inside the cabin and feel the warmth spreading out in the room together with the thick clouds of smoke, also going into the room. The smoke could have been avoided by sweeping the chimney and using dry firewood, but Biorn is a traditionalist.

There's a duckpond next to the house, and around the cabin on all sides grow spruce and pinetrees so close, that even in the two month long summer not a single sunray can pass through. If you're into gloomy, this would be your place.

There's a rich animal life in the area, mostly mosquitos the size of wasps and wasps the size of AAA batteries. The mosquitos grow in the duckpond, and the wasps everywhere else. There's also the occasional moose, a few foxes and wolves and owls. Under the cabin lives a badger family, which has the usual temperament of badgers everywhere. That is, they on sight attack everything that moves. With the possible exception of man-eating tigers and tyranosaurus rex, a badger is the planet's most unpleasant animal. Only naturelovers and ecologists living all their life in the middle of a big city have anything positive to say about badgers. Most likely because they never have met any.

As correctly has been pointed out, Biorn is usually spelled Bjorn, and people in Sweden do not trace their genealogy three generations back, but only calling themselves "Something"sson, without the extra "ssonsson". Apart from that their father maybe was called Olav, and not "something". Biorn settled on Biorn Biornssonssonsson as sufficiently vikinglike, after having decided that Grynewulf Hammeraxhead would be too much of a good thing.

Biorn is beerbarrelshaped, which is quite fitting, as most of what is inside him usually is beer. He has an impressive beard, and it is rumoured, that a family of owls lives in the beard. This is swedish humour at its best, because it is in reality only a single swallow living there.

He has never been burdened with any deep social involvement, such as having a job for a prolonged period or joining local politics, but he used to be a businessman. He smuggled moonshine from Norway to Sweden. Considering the quality of norwegian moonshine and the price of booze in Sweden, it was a very lucrative activity and he made quite a pile before going into retirement. Never having bothered much with such minor details as reality, he believes that "them commie women", as he calls them, are ordered by the dozen and can be returned after a testrun, if it turns out, that they have too high mileage or too many former owners. So he thinks, that he can afford to keep one. At least.

Concerning women he's been that close so many times, that he considers himself something of a specialist, when it comes to the female character.

quote:so if i understand correctly, whatever you write is a disinterested meaningful contribution, and what I say is off-topic nonsense to appear superior and aloof.

Please show me one word of one sentence you have written in your last four postings that have anything to do with "materialism" in the cosmic context which swede brought up as a subject for discussion.

My reference to Hawking's black hole theory was merely to support my previous statement that science doesn't have all the answers and make things up as they go along only to realize it doesn't really fit "everything" as they had originally thought, and that even Steven Hawking has recanted on his own "super theory". The micro-precise details of the theory weren't the subject of the exchange.

Although I am very impressed by your apparent restraint as to have not pointed out that I mispelled 'multi' and turned that into a 1000 word dissertation on proper spelling and the functional use of the word 'multi', but then again you may have merely been distracted from that particular error as you searched your mind for that all so witty "PMS theory" you came up with. Kudos!!![8D]

Anti-matter, as I understand it to be, is an atom or particle containing negatively charged protons and positively charged electrons. Thus, the exponential release of energy when coming in contact with "normal" matter. Wouldn't something that is so contrary to "normal" existance be considered at least a part of chaos?

quote:Why do you really think, that US authorities have tried to stop the native american church?

That's a whole nother story bub! Originally because the medicine men would tell of their visions of eventually defeating "the white eye". My people were cunning fighters and when filled with the stories of the medicine men, fearless in way that would have made John Wayne soil is shorts. Eliminating the religion after finally forcing the last of the western tribes into submission was the governments way of avoiding future possible uprisings. The use of payote wasn't the focal point of the laws that were passed.

quote:The question of "balance"(/symmetry) in the universe is still an open one. It doesn't even have to be matter, which is unbalanced/asymmetric, it could also be one the forces like gravitation.

Science seems to be intent on filling the void with something they can explain using a mathematical equation. Perhaps chaos is the void itself? All that is left over when these bright minds try to add up the mass of "everything" and fall short, may be chaos itself?

quote:Beliefsystems automatically supply you with a set of mental blinkers, so you don't have to bear the terrible burden of thinking for yourself.

This depends on what you choose to believe in. Organized religions... yes, blinkers. The kind of spiritual awareness that I strive for is one that is open to "possibilities". Is there a God? I don't know... it's possible. Is there a mathematical formula yet to be realized that will explain "everything"? I give the same answer as I did about God. But I try to remain open to the "possibility", one way or the other. Am I 100% successful at keeping a completely open mind? No. But hopefully the realization of that particular shortfall will help me down the road.

quote:I'm not a total supporter of science, but it does have it's good points.

I also enjoy the luxuries that science has provided me, but still wonder what life would be like if we knew nothing of many of the things we now have??? Doing as you did and denying yourself of them isn't the same as not knowing they exist at all as you did have the option. But for me, to live as I might have only 300 or 400 years ago would be interesting.

quote:As long as Heisenbergs uncertainty principle is valid, nothing can be reduced exclusively to mathematical precision. The clockwork-theory of the universe died app. 50 years ago.

And this brings up another question about chaos. If, chaos is random and unstructured, are we not a part of chaos? Human free will involves choice. Although a choice may be made based on a set of predetermined paramiters, this is not always the case. What structure is present, or better yet, what mathematical equation could possibly account for all of the variants that are possible when it comes to the human mind? The brain can be measured and weighed, electrical impulses charted and graphed, but no mathematical equation can be formulated to figure out the human mind. Again to make an FSU/MOB tie in... Why do these girls have such a facsination with swimming pools??? Now that's chaos!!!

quote:black holes break down the natural laws... Without natural laws, no cosmos. This total entropy is what will end the universe eventually, even if the mass in it is to small to make a contraction again. There are a couple of other ways it will collapse.

But, black holes are a measureable part of the cosmos, in that their effect can be seen and measured by light distortion and gravitational affects on other objects of mass. I'm not sure if the current theory is that black holes actually lose mass, or whether they simply continue to collapse upon themselves.

My personal thoughts are that they neither lose nor gain mass, but simply convert what they "swallow" (information) into the energy that is then returned to the cosmos? It actually kind of works. What goes in must come out in one form or another. Even on a biological level, this holds true. Humans consume food and drink. They expel solid and liquid waste, AND energy. Maybe I should call Steven Hawking and have him work on a mathematical formula?

One of the problems facing science is that many believe that the actual mass of the universe is a contant and that all things are created from existing atoms. Why? I'm going to end here. My brain hurts and I need a beer!!!

Having taken swede's advice about homemade beer, only going one step further as Americans tend to do (I made a batch of corn liquor using an old family recipe... It's only been a week so it shouldn't be much more than 150 proof at this point. I hope I don't go blind before I finish this...), I now will attempt to take our new hero Biorn Biornssonssonsson. Having corresponded with that "commie woman" Elena for almost a week and a half, Biorn decides to go and fetch his woman and bring her back home to his "luxurious secluded estate". That was the how he described it in his letters.

Having packed all the essentials, including the two pairs of underwear with the least holes and least noticeable perminent "skid" marks (he only has three pairs that equate to anything more than a stretched out elastic waistband with a few shreads of fabric still attached), he began his six day trek to the city. It would have only taken most people an hour, but Biorn stopped off at the tavern in town, which is also the local gas-station, videorental, grocery and garage, when he remembered that his order for free imported hops had come in. After returning home to brew a fresh batch of beer for his trip, Biorn was once again on his way to finally meet that "commie woman" princess who would bare him lots of strong sons! Of course, we already know that Elena use to be Boris and that as fine a job as the surgeon did, that plumbing just ain't happenning!

So once again, Biorn, now equipt with a fresh jug of Sweden's finest brew and week old underwear, continues on his trek to the airport. After a quick stop in town at the combination ice cream parlor, car wash, dentists office, discoteque and pharmacy for a condom (they are washable you now...), he finally arrives at the airport.

After being detained for several hours and strip searched (no body cavity check was performed), he is finally able to satisfy the authorities as to why he is carrying a concealed sparrow in his beard and is allowed to board the plane with the swallow comfortably in her place (It turns out, she was a rare type of female swallow and nesting on her eggs). The badger however, had to be confiscated, euphonized and was later sold to a Ukrainian fur trader.

At this time, I'm beginning to think I should have mixed that corn liquor with something, or at least eaten some food today???? Thank God (sorry swede) the 'beep', 'beep' union beep strike is over 'cause I'm so 'beep'ing hammered that I can't beep myself right now! Good job boys! I'd like to take this minute to thank Barney, my personal union beep technical coordinator for the outstanding job he's done for me since this series began... Thank you Barney! Oh, and that Ukrainian prostitute you got for me last night was the best 'beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep' time I ever had!!! Thanks Barney!!!

Well, Biorn has finally arrived in Ukraine and is awaiting his transexual trollop, Elena, at the cafe. What wacky adventures will ensue? I don't know, and I don't really give a 'beep' since I'm pretty basically wasted right now and Barney just informed me that Olga, my Ukrainian prostitute from Kyiv has just arrived!

Please join us soon for the next installment of as the "As the FSU/MOB World Turns" or "Elena, why I love swimming pools"... continues. This is Don Pardo announcing...

"Anti-matter, as I understand it to be, is an atom or particle containing negatively charged protons and positively charged electrons. Thus, the exponential release of energy when coming in contact with "normal" matter. Wouldn't something that is so contrary to "normal" existance be considered at least a part of chaos?"

Sorry, still no. But TOGETHER matter and antimatter will create chaos or alternatively energy by annihilating each other.

"Eliminating the religion after finally forcing the last of the western tribes into submission was the governments way of avoiding future possible uprisings. The use of payote wasn't the focal point of the laws that were passed."

I probably expressed myself badly (I often do). But I think we agree, because what you see as a political aspect (prevention of future uprisings), I see as a cultural/ideological fight. Whoever gave some white deported criminals or religious fanatics the right to exterminate the lawful inhabitants of America? This could only be justified by telling the bandits doing it, that they "spread civilisation", representing a better ideology. Pure manipulative beliefsystem methods. Not different from the excuses Hitler and Stalin used.

Not knowing the exact legal history of US's fight against the native americans, I can't say, when the proposed ban on peyote was first suggested. But that it is an effort to stamp out one of the central religious activities in present native american community is obvious. And thereby slowly exchanging your culture with that of the shopping-mall.

"Science seems to be intent on filling the void with something they can explain using a mathematical equation. Perhaps chaos is the void itself? All that is left over when these bright minds try to add up the mass of "everything" and fall short, may be chaos itself?"

In my book chaos and void are interchangeable. Chaos is the word usually favored by science, whereas void is more religious. But it means the same: That which is not part of the ordered universe/cosmos. The original "building-stone" of cosmos was chaos, and that's what it'll revert to when the universe collapses.

"This depends on what you choose to believe in. Organized religions... yes, blinkers. The kind of spiritual awareness that I strive for is one that is open to "possibilities"."

It's just a question of words. What I call beliefsystems is simply something you BELIEVE. Often people haven't got a clue about, whether it's true or not, because alpha fe/males discourage that kind of inconvenient curiousity. Awareness on the other hand implies "knowns". So for me a personal "spiritual" or transcendent experience is closer to reality than a beliefsystem. Even SCIENCE sometimes shows signs of being a beliefsystem.

You don't even have to be a religious freak to have a "spiritual" experience. Atheists can do it also, if they are not hampered by a too strong atheist beliefsystem.

Concerning the balance between science/not science, I have chosen a middle way. I try to ask myself: "Do I really need this?", every time I'm offered some new possibility of gadgets. I like to have medicines (though sometimes "natural" such), to be comfortable, to let machines do some of the heaviest work, to have communication options undreamed of 100 years ago. But I still want to keep contact with my body, nature around me, my "essense" and generally use myself, so I don't turn into a mindless sheepwalker. And if you fill your life with junk, it will ofcourse follow the GIGO principle.

"And this brings up another question about chaos. If, chaos is random and unstructured, are we not a part of chaos? Human free will involves choice."

That's exactly my point. As to choosing swimmingpools I see it as an example of that once-in-a-lifetime choice, sheepwalkers make: "I choose not to make more choices, but from now be a good sheepwalker" With all that implies.

"But, black holes are a measureable part of the cosmos, in that their effect can be seen and measured by light distortion and gravitational affects on other objects of mass."

That's seen from the outside. What the ..beeb.. goes on inside a black hole, is as mysterious as a woman's mind. The theory, that baby-universes are born from black holes isn't so fashionable anymore.

"Maybe I should call Steven Hawking and have him work on a mathematical formula?"

Don't worry. I'm working on it. (To avoid misunderstandings from out silent readers, I think I will allow myself a small LOL here. American humour seems mostly to be about making funny faces).

"One of the problems facing science is that many believe that the actual mass of the universe is a contant and that all things are created from existing atoms. Why? I'm going to end here. My brain hurts and I need a beer!!!"

Maybe you understand, why I learned to brew my own beer. I've been working on such subjects for 40 years. By the way: Matter and energy are interchangeable, so the amount of matter/mass is not completely constant.

PeopleS, I'm really sorry to hear about your PMS problems. But let me assure you, that it will not spoil my pleasure in our exchanges. I'm used to it. My wife has it 4? weeks every month, though I'm not sure, if the P means "pre" or "post".

PS Is it really such a good idea to have THREE Olgas? I mean, when you call: "Olga, come here and adjust my cushion", you'll have all three of them at the same time, probably quarelling, nagging and being possesive. If you wish, I'll swap one Elena for one Olga.