Western Animation The Legend Of Korra Discussion

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Sarutabaruta

Topic

08:05:31 PM Dec 30th 2014

I'm a very, very long lurker but new contributor so I figured I'd make a topic first before doing anything drastic. But I'm noticing quite a lot of instances pertaining to the scene after Varrick and Zhu Li's wedding where Korra and Asami are looking over what's left of Republic City and the seemingly growing consensus that this is somehow an intentional nod to a/the bisexuality pride flag. I've done some digging and I cannot find anything at all that would suggest this, let alone even a cursory nod that would warrant it being mentioned with authority on Ship Tease, Korra and Asami's profiles and I believe the Awesome subpages.

Is pure coincidence enough to warrant this or is this just a standing forest of Epileptic Trees?

bobwolf

03:57:16 PM Dec 31st 2014

The ship tease page is taken heavily from the Ho Yay page which always tends to use shipping goggles to over analyze every evidence.

So I've seen edits claiming that the Colossus was foreshadowed by Kuvira stripping down the domes of Zaofu for metal... does that really count? I mean, it's not as though that order didn't make sense even without the Colossus, and since the domes presumably aren't platinum (since they're opened and closed with metalbending), it seems more likely that they were stripped just for Kuvira's conventional mecha. Not to mention the timeframe doesn't make a lot of sense, by then the Colossus must've been pretty far along in construction (if not, that's even more Fridge Logic).

Can we discuss the level of canon Korrasami is on this wiki? I've been making edits assuming its canon since I've seen other edits do the same. I think the finale does mostly make Korrasami canon but I'd like to avoid the edit wars I'm seeing on other sites.

Sikon

10:57:11 PM Dec 19th 2014

I think it's a pretty safe assumption, especially considering this repost by Mike.

KynicalHypster

08:01:43 AM Dec 21st 2014

Does a same sex relationship being canon mean any mention of it on the Ho/Yay page is deleted?

I was thinking that we should change the page quote to a part of Tenzin's opening narration to the first episode, is this okay?

SeptimusHeap

01:29:07 AM Oct 15th 2014

Maybe. What is the text in question, exactly?

Sulris

03:13:05 AM Oct 18th 2014

It's "Earth. Water. Fire. Air. Only the Avatar can master all four elements and bring balance to the world."

Personally, I don't like the current page quote (is an Action Girl heroine really that big of a deal?), but I don't really think that Tenzin's narration is necessarily better. Personally, I like one of the villains words better, as they describe rapid changes in the world that we see in the series. "Nature is constantly changing. Like the wind."

dmysta3000

10:55:19 PM Oct 27th 2014

Sorry for the late reply.

The quote I was thinking of was:

"Avatar Aang accomplished many remarkable things in his life. But sadly, his time in the world came to an end, and like the cycle of the seasons, the cycle of the Avatar began anew..."

I'm not sure what Jinora did in the finale completely counts as Deus ex Machina.

Vaatu believed he was destroying Raava for all time, but Raava told Wan at the beginning that they cannot exist without each other, and that if one ever vanquishes the other, the other will return eventually.

It looked to me like Jinora was just lending Korra strength, or guiding her to help see the newly reborn Raava rather than re-creating Raava from nothingness.

While her connections to the spirits were made obvious from the beginning, her being able to follow the harmonic convergence straight to Republic City instantly, to free Korra from Vaatu's attack (that's the biggest one for me. I can understand her "guiding" Korra to Raava, that at least makes thematic sense), and then seemingly bring Raava back to life (yes, I know that's not really what happened, but she still came out of nowhere to bring a resolution to an otherwise hopeless plot).

No, it's her connection to them that was severed, their spirits weren't destroyed.

Discar

10:19:37 AM Nov 18th 2013

We don't know yet. All we know is that Korra can't contact them. It's not clear if that's the equivalent of the phone numbers getting deleted out of your phone, or of everybody on your contact list being murdered. We'll have to wait and see.

Larkmarn

07:41:26 AM Nov 21st 2013

Except... don't they all have the same spirit? Which is the same as Korra's? Seems to me that breaking the connection to their spirit would logically make them Deader Than Dead.

But yeah, for now it's unclear. It might be worthwhile to note on the page that it's a possibility, though.

MrDeath

08:03:11 AM Nov 21st 2013

It's always described as a "connection," implying they're still separate entities. When Korra or Aang called up the other avatars, it was always externalized—another entity having to sit down and talk to the current Avatar, with that other entity's thoughts, mannerism, and appearance being shown as separate. I'm inclined to believe that Korra is her own spirit, and the Avatar cycle lets her talk to the spirits of the previous avatars, which are still distinct entities.

Larkmarn

11:00:39 AM Nov 21st 2013

Generally that does seem to be the case, but instances like Korra pointing to Wan's teapot and saying "my pot!" make it... murky. I'd expect we'll find out more details next season.

Theozilla

01:29:53 PM Nov 26th 2013

The human spirit/soul of the Avatar is the same Wan's soul is Korra's soul, their personalities are still distinct, but it doesn't make them separate entities in the sense that their souls are separate. That's why it is reincarnation, it is the same soul but with a different personality and life. The soul isn't destroyed, just the connection between the different lives. So I don't think Deaderthan Dead really fits this situation.

Qyburn

08:34:09 PM Nov 26th 2013

The [implied to be] canon game "Escape from the Spirit World" suggests that the individual spirits of previous Avatars are going about their business in the Spirit World. Presumably they did it the same way Iroh did.

Then again...if that was canon, you'd think at least one of them would have shown up to help Korra at some point. The closest we got that happening was Aang talking to Tenzin, which doesn't count because (I'm 90% sure) it was just a hallucination.

Theozilla

09:44:03 PM Dec 3rd 2013

The game is canon according to the creators, but I think the previous Avatar are only in the spirit world if the present Avatar is actively connecting to them.

I believe that it was shown or indicated that she dyes her hair. Am I remembering that correctly?

That aside, I'm not sure about the ambiguity- I mean her name combined with the hair probably alludes to Ginger Rogers, but I think we are supposed to see her as of the same "race" as everyone else (plenty of the "Asian" characters also have pale skin).

On the other hand, from a Watsonian perspective, one might suggest that white people must exist in-universe, as Ginger is "pretending" to be one (she might be an invoked instance of Foreign Fanservice).

tingitania

05:35:58 AM Nov 16th 2013edited by 192.76.7.200

"On the other hand, from a Watsonian perspective, one might suggest that white people must exist in-universe, as Ginger is "pretending" to be one "

That's not how I saw it; it looks like something like You Gotta Have Blue Hair in-universe. If everyone around you has black or brown hair, then surely red would be just a really outlandish, but unique and eye-catching hair colour. Bit like Rihanna dying her hair fire-truck red; of course such a hair colour is unnatural, but it looks cool.

Also, like you said about skintone, she isn't actually much paler than Varrick, and certainly darker than Zhu Li.

Larkmarn

11:03:06 AM Nov 21st 2013

Varrick is using her to market hair dye, so it certainly isn't natural. But yeah, nothing really there to indicate she's white or imitating red haired people any more than someone in our world dyeing their hair blue.

MrDeath

11:35:44 AM Nov 21st 2013

Didn't the other Bumi have red hair when he was young? Or was that just a result of the lighting in that flashback scene?

Larkmarn

12:12:08 PM Nov 21st 2013

Probably the lighting. I'm looking for official art of young Bumi. I'm finding a semi-legit looking card that shows him with lightish brown hair (fourth thing if you GIS young Bumi) but I can't get a good look at it for some reason.

This troper can't work out if Vaatu (specifically in "The Beginnings, part 2") is actually a Shout-Out to the Reapers of the Mass Effect series, or a mere coincidence. Vaatu's shape and colour scheme sort of resembles a Reaper, especially as he grows in size, and when he fires his beam it sounds a lot like the noise Reapers are known for (especially when they fire their beams). Vaatu even seeks to bring about a new era through the world's destruction, which is what the Reapers have been doing every 50, 000 years (and here we have the Harmonic Convergence that occurs ever 10, 000 years).

Hell, thinking on it further it almost seems like a Whole Plot Reference, with spirits vs. humans resembling synthetics vs. organics. Bearing in mind that Asami's character design resembling Lust turned out to be a complete coincidence, this troper is unsure whether to add Vaatu in as a shout out or just leave it be (and that she may be reading too much into it).

madgodzulcan

06:54:46 PM Oct 19th 2013

The whole battle for all eternity is has been used before a few times. As for the appearance the twin spirits seemed to resemble an eastern charm more than anything for me.

And again, the appearance doesn't remind me of a Reaper at all. I mean, now that you mention it, I can sort of see it, but even so it's a stretch.

I think it's just a combination of them both using the same classic tropes, and then slight design similarities.

TheStrayXIII

07:47:59 PM Oct 19th 2013edited by 70.27.199.132

Yeah, figured the plot bit wouldn't quite work. But Vaatu's design still seems Reaper-like (almost like an upside down Reaper, to be honest). If it weren't for the sound of the beam blaring like a Reaper Horn, this troper wouldn't have thought twice about it. Though a friend has pointed out the similarity, without her prompting. Guess it's more YMMV than anything unless someone were to ask Bryke directly.

DennouShaman

04:12:26 AM Nov 23rd 2013

You tropers never played any of the Shin Megami Tensei games, right?
Google "Shikigami" ... some eastern spirits are portrayed as flying/floating paper charms.

Vaatu and Raava are this, all over.
The only Reaper-like aspect of the Dark Spirit is his beam SFX because ... Rule of Cool, right? And we all know that the Reaper beam SFX was awesome. 8)

Why isn't Varrick against Unalaq an Evil Versus Evil situation? We already know that Varrick is not a good guy, and that he's been trying to sabotage Asami, an the fact that Varrick would continuously make the North look bad, just to garner support against Unalaq

Larkmarn

07:12:14 PM Oct 16th 2013

Give it time. We haven't really seen his true colors yet. So far, it's still seeming like a Black and Grey Morality situation. We'll see soon, I'd imagine.

TheStrayXIII

12:04:19 PM Oct 19th 2013edited by 70.27.199.132

So far it looks live Varrick is just in it for the money. He sabotaged Asami so that, when he saves her from bankruptcy, he owns the majority shares in her company. More money for him. With a war, he would make even more money by becoming a military weapons contractor (for both sides even, considering he's done it during the Republic City elections).

Larkmarn

12:18:31 PM Oct 19th 2013edited by 108.48.88.58

At the moment, I'm not certain if he's AGAINST Unalaq at all. See WMG, I think it's a possibility that he's actually working with Unalaq (the early stages of the war were incredibly good for Unalaq, suspiciously so, and Varrick has thus far gained more than he's lost).

So... I still say we hold off.

FULL DISCLOSURE: Haven't seen yesterday's episode yet. I'll chime in when I do see it.

EDIT: ... well, looks like that full disclosure was unnecessary. I stand by my statements.

With all the expy characters I was thinking Unalaq being an expy of the fire lord from the original series with the whole screwing his older brother over to become leader and such.

Torresp

01:01:49 AM Oct 12th 2013

Why isn't Varrick against Unalaq an Evil Versus Evil situation? We already know that Varrick is not a good guy, and that he's been trying to sabotage Asami, an the fact that Varrick would continuously make the North look bad, just to garner support against Unalaq.

Raxis

07:53:12 AM Nov 12th 2013

Because a lot of people don't accept that Varrick is an antagonist yet. He's still on the "allies" character page.

Disappeared Dad: Aang was the "present physically, but absent emotionally" sort, enough that it is still a point of contention for Bumi and Kya decades later with regard to Tenzin remembering their childhood as idyllic and happy, while they do not. Part of it was Aang's sense of duty as the Avatar, but the rest was that Tenzin was an airbender, making Aang no longer the last that resulted in his playing favorites so dramatically.

Honestly? I think it's probably true. However, we should wait for a bit more information. Two children being The Unfavorite doesn't necessarily make for a Disappeared Dad. Just as Tenzin had a biased view of Aang, it's possible that Kya and Bumi did as well.

I vote we give it a bit more time and some real explanation before readding it. Given that this seems to be the B-plot of the season, I'd imagine there will be elaboration.

Skylite

09:00:04 PM Sep 28th 2013

Looks like you're right on multiple counts.

Bumi is still feeling inferior (and like he needs to show he's just as good as any bender) and like a disappointment for not having been born an airbender. He still needs comfort over it from Kya.

Aang's disappointment over that must have been harshest on the firstborn. And from his own series, we know he wasn't great at Reading emotions or responding to ones he didn't like or understand. (his reactions to knowing he could exploit Zhao, vs his refusal to take "I'm confused" as an answer from Katara spring to mind first). We also know Aang was harboring deep seeded guilt for having run away, resulting in the airbenders being exterminated. So Bumi was easily the first and longest recipient of Aang's dismay. And Tenzin the recipient of his elation at finally having a shot at airbenders not becoming completely extinct upon Aang's death.

All 3 siblings admit that their recall of their childhood is biased. But bias does not account for Aang clearly leaving his two eldest behind in favor of airbender bonding with Tenzin. If a parent is favoring a child, it's difficult to argue that they're emotionally present for the non favored.

So looking over Eska in the first two episodes of Spirits, there could be a dominatrix and BDSM thing going on with her and Bolin.

Bolin drops the word boyfriend then moves on to slave where she says, "Yes" while dragging him away. She wants to claim Bolin as her own. Eska gives Bolin a pet name.

The final point is when Bolin runs up to hug Korra. Eska get angry and ice bends to bound him up in a humiliating display. She then brings him back to her to discipline him for making physical contact with another woman.

TheOtherSteve

09:00:02 PM Sep 14th 2013edited by 161.6.167.246

She's obviously the dominant one in their relationship, but I think you're jumping the gun. BDSM requires clearly established boundaries so that no one really gets hurt. Eska starts acting that way right when they first meet, so there's no time for boundaries to be set up. It's also not clear if Bolin is fully comfortable with this situation. I got the impression he wasn't.

Also, where was she going to discipline him? Right there in the snow? Her dad and brother are watching!

Singe

09:36:55 PM Sep 14th 2013edited by 70.193.138.154

It's a Y7 show and this is probably getting under the radar stuff. While there is no sadomasochism. There is definitely signs of "B&D(Bondage & Discipline) & "D&S" (Dominance & Submission).

Eska: [To Desna.] Perhaps it would be interesting to spend time with a person who's ways are so rough and uncultured. [To Bolin.] You amuse me. I will make you mine.
Bolin: You mean like a boyfriend, or like a slave...?
Eska: Yes. [Grabs Boln's collar.] Win me prizes.

It'll depend on how more Eska will show her dominance over Bolin.

The ice bending stocks was the way she was disciplining Bolin in that public display of humiliation while she got on to him for the physical contact with Korra.

Father and brother show no reaction to Eska and Bolin yet.

Book 2 is ramping it up on Bolin's butt monkey status with more physical humiliation. The relationship will play on that.

TheOtherSteve

09:45:45 PM Sep 14th 2013edited by 161.6.164.34

...I cannot believe I am having this conversation.

My point is that at this point in time, Bolin and Eska's relationship better resembles abuse then BDSM. So far, we've got no indication that Eska really cares about what Bolin thinks about how she treats him. If this was BDSM, she would care. Because she would need to know where not to cross a line so she wouldn't accidentally hurt Bolin.

Also, discussion pages are meant to decide the layout of the page, not discuss the show. (This is my fault, I admit. I should have told you from the beginning.) You should try the forums.

Wanted to bring this to Discussion. Mr. Death had removed it without elaboration, and I agree it isn't correct:

All of the Other Reindeer: This is basically what the plot of Book 1 revolves around. Benders are often feared and hated by normal people because of their abilities. They are said to have an unfair advantage over normal people, and as a result, bad benders like the triads often abuse their powers on non bending civilians. It became a moot point when people like Amon or Hiroshi Sato strove to invoke this trope among the non benders, which would result in much of the non- bending population ostracizing benders, even the good ones.

In this universe, being a bender is pretty common (if not the majority of people) and the world kind of runs around bending (The Avatar is of course a bender).

I don't think its true that, "Benders are often feared and hated by normal people because of their abilities." The Equalist movement (has that viewpoint, but it isn't clear whether they comprise the majority of nonbenders in Republic City, but even if they do, there's no indication that this is something common among nonbenders everywhere/is a longstanding social attitude (since it doesn't show up at all in the previous series, it probably isn't).

Basically, the Avatarverse is very different from the setting of X-Men in which empowered individuals are a marginalized minority.

Torresp

10:48:35 AM Sep 4th 2013

The fact that such an attitude doesn't show up in the previous series, but shows up later indicates that society underwent a backwards development over 70 years with regards to attitude towards benders. If anything, the Equalists wanted to invoke this trope among the non-benders. As a result, more and more people start to follow the Equalist movement as Book 1 progressed. I mean, benders have an unfair advantage, as there are bad benders who extort innocent civilians and those who killed Hiroshi Sato's wife. All those are reasons for non-benders to start ostracizing empowered individuals. By the way, in X-Men, mutants are pretty much just as common as benders are in the Avatar Universe. Empowered individuals in X-Men are marginalized for the same reason benders are—they have abilities that normal people consider a threat. In X-men, there are mutants who are bad, which also gave normal people an irrational reason to ostracize even good mutants.

Hodor

10:58:53 AM Sep 4th 2013

"If anything, the Equalists wanted to invoke this trope among the non-benders."

That is true- and the reason they did so is because prior to that most normal people had no problem with benders, and probably still don't.

" X Men, mutants are pretty much just as common as benders are in the Avatar Universe."

That may be true, but if so, that's more a matter of Marvel creating too many mutant characters/Depending on the Writer. As Rodrik noted in his edit, society in the Avatarverse revolves around bending/treats it as a totally normal trait. That isn't at all comparable to the setting in X-Men.

Rebochan

11:01:52 AM Sep 4th 2013

Er...yea, no, this trope isn't even close to applying. Benders are the government. Benders are the police force. Benders are celebrity athletes. Benders are even grunt labor - previously "astounding" abilities like lightning bending are now so mundane that they're simply used for providing electricity, for just one example.

This trope is for people who, because of an extremely rare trait, are marginalized and ostracized from society for it. Benders are too well integrated into Republic City for this trope to apply. The Equalists having a dim view of them isn't based entirely on irrational hatred either - there's a very clear reason why they feel as they do. That legitimate anger is later channeled into something greater. But it's still not this trope, because the Equalists had to completely overthrow the social order to get their perspective seen at all.

Rognik

11:02:09 AM Sep 4th 2013

Benders were the majority for a long time. Most of the Fire Nation, all of the Air Nomads before they were exterminated, and many in the Earth and Water kingdoms were all benders. Bending has become less common, but is still not a rarity, and they have even become utilitarian. After all, the power station is fueled by fire benders bending lightning into the generators, and they get paid to do so! I hardly call that ostracizing.

Yes, the Equalists wanted to oust all the benders and treat them like subclass, but benders were still a significant portion of the population. Without Amon removing bending powers and Sato's machines, the movement couldn't have even gotten started. If anything, the nonbenders were treated more as subhuman on camera, and they were pleading for equality rather than death to bending.

Torresp

11:59:40 AM Sep 4th 2013

Now, about these points:

"the reason they did so is because prior to that most normal people had no problem with benders, and probably still don't"

"Benders are the government. Benders are the police force. Benders are celebrity athletes. "

Look, benders abused and extorted non-bending civilians, benders killed Hiroshi Sato's wife, the government wasn't intended to be an all-bender council, the incumbent bending government became corrupt over time because of Tarrlok, bending athletes got away with cheating in games, all of these are reason for normal people, to start to have a problem with benders even before the Equalist movement came in.

Look, like I said before, attitudes towards benders in the previous series differ from attitudes towards benders in this series. It is possible, (yet unfortunate), for social attitudes over time towards a group to shift from acceptance to the opposite. Throughout the 70 years that passed, attitudes towards benders may have worsened as time went on. Gommu's hideout presents a completely different setting where benders and non-benders coexist with no problem. This meant to contrast the main city, where benders and non-benders still have trouble coexisting. Just because the benders of Republic City appeared to be integrated does not mean that people were either comfortable or accepting of them.

First of all, who's to say that benders have been a majority? The bending trait may not be rare, but neither is the X-gene. Mutants in Xmen have existed on earth for a long time. Similarly in Generator Rex, rampaging EVO's are prevalent, and Nanites are in every person. However, the trope is applied to Rex, an EVO, who is still ostracized even in a world where Nanites are in everyone, even normal humans. In all three of these cases, these empowered individuals have something that is abnormal by human standards, but not rare in general. Altogether, normal humans came to hate them for existing, and all these groups, benders, mutants, EV Os, have something that normal people wouldn't have, something that can give them an unfair advantage over normal people.

Also, the Equalists couldn't have been the only anti-bending movement, or only people who hated benders. They have been defeated, but there could be others who hate benders.

The Equalists sure didn't like them, but they hardly count as an accurate portrayal of the will of the people. At the end of the day, people (benders and non-benders alike) willingly cheered for, elected, and supported Benders.

"Some people have a problem with Benders" is not the trope, no matter how you cut it. The trope is about the people in question being ostracized, marginalized, and all in all being excluded from things because of how they're different—none of that even remotely applies.

You cannot call Benders an All of the Other Reindeer situation if the whole of society revolves around Bending. It's like saying people driving cars is such a situation, because some people don't like drunk drivers.

Hello, I really think it would be easier and better to have a character index that will contain characters from both series. The Legend of Korra and Avatar: The last airbender are both part of the same franchise, so it would make more sense to have a character index for the entire franchise. For example, Ben 10 has spawned 3 sequels, but they have one index page that indexes all characters that have appeared across all series. Here is the link to my example: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/Ben10?from=Characters.Ben10Omniverse. I hope you take this into consideration.

Telcontar

01:21:19 AM Jan 2nd 2013

Thing is, there's little character overlap between them. Those who appear in both series are much changed in the interim, so it makes little sense to treat them as one thing. Every work can have a character sheet; with Ben 10, people simply haven't bothered to create a separate page because there is more overlap.

Wouldn't Mako be a Hypercompetent Sidekick? How many times has Korra saved the World? By herself? Zero. Everytime, there has always been someone there to help her. Mako has already saved Korra countless times. It's a surprise Korra even made it as far as she is now.

No. Korra relies on him as part of her team, but MOST characters with a team would've failed but for their teammates. Korra herself is way too competent for Mako to be considered a Hypercompetent Sidekick. Mako isn't hypercompetent enough for him to be one, either. Not saying he's incompetent or anything, but the trope is about a sidekick who is way more intelligent or capable than the leader. Which is not the case.

Torresp

05:07:57 PM Jan 1st 2013

First of all, what you are saying does not make any sense. You might have some typos or something.

By the way, there were numerous times Korra made decisions that made her look dumb and obnoxious. Without a doubt, Korra is cocky and arrogant. Countless times, Mako is usually the one who has to save her. After seeing one book, it is already clear that Korra wouldn't even be alive without Mako's help.

Larkmarn

06:14:59 PM Jan 1st 2013

Nah, I'm good. Not sure what you're referring to.

Anyway, long story short, Korra isn't incompetent enough, Mako isn't hypercompetent enough. Yes, he's saved her life a bunch of times but their dynamic is a fairly standard Hero/Lancer dynamic, not that of a Hypercompetent Sidekick.

Rebochan

01:01:32 AM May 13th 2013

I'd also point out that every hero on this show needs help from someone. The only reason Aang was able to take on Ozai one on one was because he had every single ally he'd accumulated ensuring there was nobody around to back up Ozai. Sokka, Toph, and Suki took out the entire air force, the White Lotus took out the standing army, and Zuko and Katara took out Azula.

And for that matter, Korra went up against Amon with Mako while the rest of her team dealt with the rest of the Equalists. Even if Mako wasn't with her, she still couldn't claim the efforts are hers alone when a lot of other competent people were ensuring there was nobody to come back up Amon or that the city or military burned while she was trying to subdue him.

Man, the way people write about Mako, you'd think he single-handedly defeated Amon without breaking out a sweat while Korra swooned at his feet. Whereas in the actual show, even breaking blood-bending to hit him with lightning got nothing more than a amused taunt out of Amon.

I don't want to pull without double-checking, but I noticed The Unfair Sex was added to describe a fan reaction to the love triangle. While I've certainly noticed this behavior in the fandom, looking at the trope page itself, the actual seems to only concern itself with the behavior of characters in-universe, and nobody in the show actually displays behavior like this (i.e. holding the man more responsible for a transgression than a woman). Closest may be Asami blowing up at Mako and not seeming to react to Korra during Kissgate...but Asami also A) doesn't know who started the kiss, only that it happened and B) doesn't care because Mako still hid it from her and that alone is a good reason to get mad at him.

So I added First Girl Wins, the example of which was rightfully changed, but I still feel the whole Bolin-meeting/Mako-radio/who's-first(?) thing deserves a mention. Just not sure how to do it, though. xD

Larkmarn

09:43:04 AM Jul 3rd 2012edited by Larkmarn

I edited it, was that what you had in mind?

MichelleHowe

01:31:50 PM Jul 3rd 2012

Pretty much, except I found it interesting that she actually heard of Mako before on the Radio, so technically, it's sorta played straight, but... xD;

Just something I found really interesting that the creators did and think it deserves mentioning under this trope, except I'm unsure how to phrase it. xP

Distress Ball: Lin wraps her metal cables around the Lieutenant's electrified kali sticks. She's an experienced fighter, a master earthbender, and has squared off against Equalists with electrified weaponry before. This is done to allow Tenzin's children an opportunity to pull a Big Damn Heroes moment.

Because Lin didn't wrap her cables around the Lieutenant's kali sticks, the Lieutenant caught her cables with them. I.e. it was him exploiting a weakness, not Lin performing a dumb move.

Eagal

01:24:04 PM Jun 29th 2012

The cables aren't whips. Lin actively controls their entire length. They couldn't have wrapped around the Lieutenant's sticks unless Lin wanted them to.

And that still doesn't excuse Lin using metal cables against a guy she knows for a fact uses electrified kali sticks.

Rebochan

02:28:20 PM Jun 29th 2012

When people add a contested trope to this page, that's not an invitation to re-add it before anyone's actually had a chance to talk about it.

I disagree that it's a Distress Ball as well. Lin using her most common weapon isn't actually being blindingly stupid.

Eagal

03:36:07 PM Jun 29th 2012

1: Knows cables don't work on Lt, and in fact does more harm than good.

2: Has been using earthbending on Lt's subordinates, whom are not at risk of exploiting the metal in the cables (At least I don't remember them having shock gloves, could be wrong, but doesn't really matter).

3: Does not use earthbending when Lt shows up, instead choosing to not only use the cables, but actively enables the Lieutenant to use his electricity against her by grabbing his sticks with them.

I can't imagine any way in which it could be less of an example of Distress Ball.

Rebochan

10:41:22 AM Jul 1st 2012edited by Rebochan

Now, I finally had time to watch the scene again.

First off, let's get one thing out of the way - you're basing this trope application on the idea that any single time a character needs help, it's this because the character must be acting blindingly stupid for the villain to get the upper hand.

Second?

Watching the scene again, the Lieutenant clearly caught the cables while they were being thrown, and he wasn't her only opponent. Lin may be able to control the length, but physics still applies. You're suggesting its Distress Ball simply because the villains got the upper hand on her bending.

I'm pretty sure Distress Ball is not intended for the viewer to analyze every single situation to look for how the character that just got hurt and needed help should have known better.

She's a master Earthbender, she's seen her subordinates get taken down this exact same way, she's encountered him before, and she attacks in the worst possible way. You don't grapple the guy with electrified weapons. If she had used her cables as whips (or spikes), if she had thrown rocks at him, if she had done... pretty much anything else, it would have gone differently. Lin had one of the most versatile skillsets at her disposal. She did the single worst thing she could have done.

Moreover, there's a very Doylist reason for her doing it: She had to be in distress in order to justify the Airbending kids. That's part of Distress Ball; not only do they have to do something they wouldn't, but it has to be clear that the author did it in order to advance the plot (or in this case, introduce a scene that they had clearly wanted to make sure was included).

We've had this discussion before, on this page, and the general consensus was that it was Distress Ball (albeit begrudgingly).

Eagal

07:14:01 PM Jul 2nd 2012edited by Eagal

I'm not claiming that any time a character needs help it's a Distress Ball. Dunno where you got that idea. If Lin legitimately fought the Lt and lost because he was just better, that wouldn't be an example. But that's not what happened.

Lin knows about the Lt, she knows his Weapon of Choice, she knows that grabbing the sticks with her metal cables is a bad move.

As I said before, the cables are not whips. Lin controls them. There is no possible the Lt could have gotten them to wrap around his sticks without Lin actively wanting them to.

She was using earthbending like nobody's business on the fodder Equalists, but the second a guy it would actually be useful against shows up she switches right to using the Achilles' Heel he explicitly targets. Even with using the cables there were things she could have done that didn't end in her being electrocuted. She didn't do them though. Instead she grabs his electrosticks and the Distress Ball in one fell swoop and is electro-distressed for her efforts.

If Lin hadn't gone down there would have been no reason for the AB Ks to show up and save her.

Larkmarn

07:00:58 AM Jul 3rd 2012edited by Larkmarn

Now, I am going to say this, I doubt that Lin was trying to grab his sticks. He twirled them as the cables came close, presumably actively trying to get them wrapped around them. She was probably trying to grab his arms. Or body.

Doesn't change the fact she was trying to grapple him anyway. Like Eagal said, she does have control over her whips. If she had just gone in for a whip-like strike, then she could have done that. She's not accidentally wrapping metal whips around things.

Also: Rebo, you mention that he's not the only one she's fighting. Actually, he is. The mooks get nice and chivalrous for his arrival, rather than just be cannon fodder. Honestly a shame for her, really, since she was doing quite well using the mooks as weapons against the other mooks.

MrDeath

09:41:08 AM Jul 3rd 2012

Of course Lin was trying to grapple him. That's what the whips are for. And even if she's metalbending instead of just swinging them, they still have to do truck with physics, and they're not solid, rigid structures.

It's not even the first time she threw the whips at him that fight—it's the move she opens up with, and he dodges out of the way.

If you throw a punch at someone, and they deflect it, even if you have "control" of your arm, the punch is still going to be deflected. That's what happened here. She threw an attack at him, and he defended.

ccoa

11:05:25 AM Jul 3rd 2012edited by ccoa

Okay, here's my take on it:

Lin did do something relatively stupid here, and she clearly did it because the writers needed her to be in trouble. However, the way Distress Ball is written, it's exceedingly negative and gives the impression that the character did something Too Dumb to Live and we should point and laugh at the writers for it.

It fits the spirit of the trope (characters action is contrived and sub-optimal for the situation in order to set him or her up to be rescued), but not the bile-filled trope we have written.

Eagal

11:49:11 AM Jul 3rd 2012edited by Eagal

Tropes Are Not Bad, non? So if Distress Ball gives the impression of excessive badness then it needs to be rewritten to reflect its relative neutrality. But that don't change that Lin was playin' ball.

As to the need for the cables to obey the laws of physics, uh...no, not really. This is the part where the fact that it's fiction comes in. The writers have total control over everything that happens in the plot. They decided to have the cables wrap around the Lt's sticks even though Lin should have complete control over them. She's a master earth/metalbender. I don't think such a paltry thing as simple momentum should be beyond her power to counteract.

And because Lin's cables wrapped around the sticks, Lin got shocked, thereby putting her in Distress. And then the airbender kids came in to save her. And Ikki was riding a ball. :p

You got your doing something stupid, you got your distress, you got your being saved, you got your ball. What more do you need.

So—apologies, because apparently I goofed. I committed the grievous error of Natter, although I wasn't aware at the time, that I was committing said crime. I went through the history of the page to see just why my edit was deleted, and noticed a reference thusly: "Send Voice in the Night (me) a PM regarding the problem of natter." So, therefore, my question is three-fold: Why was my post natter, what can I do to fix it (because I believe I was making a valid addition to the Fridge, if not, any help is appreciated), and three, where can I access said P Ms? I'm kinda new to the wiki-format of doing things...

EDIT: Okay, so I can see how my entry wasn't quite Fridge Logic—as there wasn't anything -wrong- with it in-Universe, per-se, but then, where would it go? I don't think it's Fridge Brilliance, either? For reference: I was talking about when Korra unlocks her airbending, her technique isn't standard at all, and that could either illustrate her awesomeness as an avatar or her desperation in the face of Amon de-bending Mako

First time I've added a trope to a page, just checked whether it had been edited and its gone.

The trope was "Art Major Physics" because the metal benders armor would act as a faraday shield against the power gloves, but in the cartoon the gloves seem to be quite effective against the metal benders.

Just wondering why it was deleted, is there supposed to be some sort of process before a trope is added?

ccoa

04:36:37 PM Jun 27th 2012

Artistic License – Physics is trivia, which means it goes on the Trivia tab. In theory, the person who removes it should have moved it there. It doesn't always happen, though.

RedwoodElf

04:45:50 PM Jul 9th 2012

If Artistic License – Physics is trivia, then why isn't it listed on the trivia main page as a trivia trope? Or is it just a case of this PARTICULAR item being Trivia?

I ask, because people have been going around deleting any Artistic License reference they find, even if it is a definite in-world example, like the totally ubiquitous "Black holes gain a zillion times more gravity the instant they're formed, instead of having the same gravity as the star that collapsed to form them, just in a much smaller volume"...(An example of "even though it's wrong, it makes stories interesting, so they use it anyway")

This is clearly not Trivia, as it's not "Behind the scenes" at all. Perhaps it's time for a new catagory at the top of works like "Unrealistic Reality Tropes"

"Trivia" would be things like continuity errors, not something integral to the story.

seems to me this is a pretty straight foward justified example: Korra and everyone else is saved at the last minute by the intervention of Aang, it's justified in that
Korra's "hitting a low point" (not self identifying as the avatar anymore, realizing she's lost most of her bending for good, whatever you want to qualify it as) allows it, which fits in with the entire Enlightenment Superpowers the avatar is known for.

So what are other's issues with it? Is there a way it could be worded that would make it clearer to you?

Eagal

03:46:11 PM Jun 27th 2012

As I said just a few seconds ago when I removed the entry (and then readded it when I saw there was a discussion):

As I said the first time this popped up back when the finale aired: It aint a type 1, where the method to resolve the problem did not previously exist (ironically, that method in itself was originally a type 1).

It aint a type 2. Illogical placement and timing? Feh. When else would you expect a Spirit Guide to appear than when the guidee is at her lowest and in need of help?

It aint a type 3. It was obvious to anyone who bothered to pay attention that energybending would play a prominent role in undoing Noatak's handiwork.

Which makes it as type 4, AKA Not actually a Deus Ex Machina.

ccoa

04:55:10 PM Jun 27th 2012

I'm not entirely convinced of this myself, but I think there's room to make a case for this being a DEM.

Energy bending was not set up in Korra, but rather a previous series. Furthermore, no indication was given that it could be used to heal, well, anything. The only use set up for energybending is taking bending away.

Eagal

05:59:29 PM Jun 27th 2012

Aang used energybending on Yakone during the flashback. Got me on the healing part though/

ashlay

06:52:47 PM Jun 27th 2012edited by ashlay

Tropes Are Not Bad. Regardless of how negatively that trope page is written now, a Deus ex Machina is first and foremost a miraculous event that solves the negative consequences at the end of a story, especially if Trope Maker the ancient Greeks have anything to say about it. It does not in any way have to imply a lack of skill on the part of the writer, that's what we have Ass Pull for.

This particular example would probably fit into a type 3. They set up a Chekhov's Gun (Energy Bending), but it only shows up at the last second, and in an unexpected way (Aang can finally contact Korra directly after they established he couldn't) for an unexpected purpose (giving bending instead of sealing it).

Rebochan

07:04:38 PM Jun 27th 2012

I took it out because it is not a miraculous event. Korra is clearly invoking the Avatar state at the time, and by that point in the series, she'd clearly been growing closer and closer to her spiritual connection to Aang. The previous series established that contacting previous Avatars allows them to learn new abilities or use other ones, and this one established that the Avatar State could resist bloodbending. They were building off of something that was being foreshadowed, not dropping a magical solution out of nowhere.

ashlay

07:10:39 PM Jun 27th 2012edited by ashlay

That would imply Korra expected to get into contact with Aang and regain her bending, which she clearly did not given the level of her emotional distress and her line to Mako "I'm not the avatar anymore".

Just because Korra herself did not expect Aang to appear does not mean the viewer did not have a reasonable expectation for him to considering the foreshadowing the series provided. Couple that with the previous series and it's approach to the spirit world, the Avatar state, and how deceased Avatars affect living Avatars.

I don't think Aang showing up is the DEM, I think that energybending being able to solve her problem is. It isn't the Avatar state that cures her, it's Aang using energybending on her.

The only use set up previously for energybending is to take bending away - we never got any indication what other uses it might have. Thus, being able to cure whatever it was Amon did to people with bloodbending did seem to come out of nowhere.

Rebochan

01:40:27 PM Jun 28th 2012edited by Rebochan

Is Korra using Energybending? Was that confirmed anywhere? Otherwise, she is using the Avatar state, which the show previously established through flashback can resist or negate bloodbending, to undo bloodbending.

Actually, even if she IS energybending, the flashback showed Aang was able to easily resist bloodbending when channeling the Avatar state. Amon's debending is bloodbending, so why can't Korra tap into Avatar powers to do that?

VoiceInTheNight

07:45:30 AM Jun 29th 2012

Not to sound pedantic, but is this even energybending? The only -confirmed- two uses we've had of energybending in -both- series have been by Avatar Aang, and in each time they had a certain look to them. Aang grips his target's forhead and chest, and uses his spirit to bend the target's spirit back into line—and in Yakone and Ozai's case, back into line = no more omnicidal bending for you. However, in both Amon/Noatak's case and in Aang restoring Korra's bending's case, all that is done is a thumb is pressed into the forehead. That's the only thing that's consistent.

Aang grips Korra's shoulder, but that looks more like a reassuring gesture rather than an actual chi/chakra heal, and Amon sometimes will grab the back of the target's throat, but even that's not 100%...could we say that Aang learned bloodbending in the interim? Occam's Razor makes sense to me here...Aang learned bloodbending after Yakone went nuts, taught it to Korra, and Korra used it to heal Lin.

ashlay

09:30:35 AM Jun 29th 2012edited by ashlay

Tenzin says Aang and Korra use Energy Bending. Tarrlok says Amon was Blood Bending. We will operate under what the show established until such time as it establishes something else. If you want to suggest alternate theories, use the WMG page.

VoiceInTheNight

09:56:13 AM Jun 29th 2012

Erm...somehow, I must have missed that comment. If Tenzin says it's Energybending, that's as close to Wo G we're going to get...so then my above comment can be disregarded. My bad...sorry.

Every time we've seen energybending required the Avatar state, which we already saw could ignore the effects of Bloodbending. Korra's clearly still invoking it when she gets re-bended (tee hee).

For that matter, a really good bloodbender could blow off bloodbending, as seen via Amon - which also jives, by the way, with why Katara couldn't undo it as it was already established that Amon was an insanely powerful bloodbender. So it's not like a blood-de-bending is impossible to remove.

All of these clues were dropped ahead of time. On top of that, before Aang could control the Avatar state or easily contact other spirits, he was more capable of doing so when at emotional extremes. I don't buy that Korra was suicidal, but she was definitely emotionally overwhelmed at the time when the contact was made.

To sum up, not a Deus ex Machina when its using plenty of previously established elements to get there.

Also, I'm not actually able to rewatch the episode right now to confirm Tenzin's dialog.

As a side note, did we lose the ability to set discussion pages to "watchlist"? I keep having to check these manually unless I'm missing something.

ashlay

03:56:57 PM Jun 29th 2012edited by ashlay

?

But your theory about the Avatar State being the same as Energy Bending is pure speculation, not something established by the show. Especially when it completely contradicts non-avatar the Lion Turtle using Energy Bending in Avatar: The Last Airbender, and the Lion Turtle establishing it was a forgotten art used before the Avatar even existed.

Rebochan

05:02:22 PM Jun 29th 2012

The Lion Turtle is a spiritual being. The whole point of the Avatar state is related to the spiritual nature of the Avatar.

Every time we've seen energy bending, it's been shown in the Avatar state, so while nobody has explicitly said so, the fact it keeps getting invoked when its being used suggests its necessary - and for that matter, in the show itself, everyone expressed surprise at the concept of anyone except the Avatar being capable of it, so even if humans could do it once, they don't seem capable of it now.

I keep bringing it up because to be a Deus ex Machina, it has to happen for no reason or without reasonable setup (i.e. a quick Chekhov's Gun vs. actual foreshadowing). In this example, we've got plenty of visible examples of the principles of bloodbending being undone in the face of the Avatar State/Energy bending, so it's not a Deus ex Machina when the plot builds off of this to end the series with the de-bending and the contacting of Aang.

ashlay

09:13:46 AM Jun 30th 2012edited by ashlay

Look, this is besides the point. Let's assume what you say is true: Korra had visions showing she could regain her bending through being the Avatar. Let's even assume Amon taking your bending is a form of ongoing blood bending instead of an injury caused by blood bending. Not sure how Amon keeps blood bending after he's dead, but who cares?

Why have Korra say "I'm not the Avatar anymore" then? Why have her massively depressed? Why have a scene where the greatest healer in the world says her powers are lost forever? Why not have Tenzin tell her to meditate to contact Aang again?

Once again, Tropes Are Tools. This Deus ex Machina isn't a mistake, it's an actively set up one for Rule of Drama purposes. Regardless of what anyone assumes from earlier sections, that doesn't change the fact the script is designed to make all that seem meaningless in the scenes directly preceding Aang's appearance. It's entirely made to be a seemingly unsolvable problem suddenly solved by an unexpected intervention.

Ok, the "Korra was momentarily contemplating suicide" theory. I buy it, and I can see the imagery in the show implying it, but unless we get Word of God confirmation, it remains a theory (made popular by an A.V. Club reviewer nonetheless). What trope(s) are in play, and is it YMMV or not?

JBK405

06:32:26 AM Jun 26th 2012edited by JBK405

Unless there's something explicit (Like her actually leaning over the edge or turning back and whispering "goodbye" to the village or something like that) it's just a theory and shouldn't be referenced on this page. Many people, even depressed people, and even depressed people in the Avatar universe, stand near large drops without contemplating suicide. Sometimes they like the view (It's good for thinking), sometimes they like the isolation, sometimes it's just a coincidence that they're right there. I'm not saying she absolutely wasn't contemplating suicide, just that there was nothing saying she was apart from "She's sad near a big drop".

DrPsyche

10:42:38 PM Jun 26th 2012

When I saw the scene I thought that she was being reflective, and going off to be alone (Wasn't she on that same cliff looking out in the first episode?). It wasn't till It was suggested on this site that the idea crossed my mind. I would wait for a Word of God for this.

Larkmarn

07:41:45 AM Jun 27th 2012

While I personally think it's ridiculously likely that she was contemplating suicide, I do agree that without Word of God it's just a theory.

Reeeeeeally not sure if they could possibly get a more direct away past the censors, though. That's pretty damn dark stuff right there.

MadCat221

07:29:32 AM Jun 28th 2012

Korra was trying to make Mako go back and "get on with his life". After Mako confesses he loves her, she seems torn by... something. The most plausible explanation for me over that scene with Mako made her realize her suicide would now have the complication of crushing Mako.

IMO, it was just like the Tarrlok/Noatok boat explosion: It was as explicit as could be shown in a Y7 show.

I'm not sure what the right trope for this is, or if it's just my opinion that doesn't warrant a mention, but I can't help but feel that Tenzin and his family's capture in episode 12 is a bit of an Ass Pull and Diabolus ex Machina. Firstly they are shown getting away in episode 10 thanks to Lin Beifong's Heroic Sacrifice (the undamaged airship turned away), but it seems the only purpose of their capture and threat of de-bending is to give Korra and Mako a reason to attack Amon and set-up a final showdown instead of retreating as they were planning on doing.

JBK405

07:16:28 AM Jun 25th 2012

It's certainly odd as all hell, especially since the opening narration in "Skeletons in the Closet" explicitly says that they escaped, but it's not a Diabolus ex Machina since this leads to the conflict and Amon's defeat, as opposed to actually assisting him. What it does count as I'm not sure.

DrPsyche

12:32:54 PM Jun 25th 2012

How did they get captured? Did they send an Airship, or the planes? The plane could shoot the air-bison down, but they couldn't capture the benders. And of the two Airships that chased Tenzin, Lin took down one, and the other took her back to the island (and presumably rescued the guys from the first ship). Tenzin had a massive lead on any airship that could follow (Even if they could go slightly faster).

MrDeath

12:59:53 PM Jun 25th 2012

They don't have to shoot down a bison. All they have to do is present enough of a threat to make Tenzin surrender. Considering his newborn child was on Oogi, he couldn't have gotten away with the kind of acrobatic dogfighting Appa always did in the original series, and Master though he may be, Tenzin couldn't stop a bunch of planes all at once, so all it would've taken was a credible, "Stop or we'll shoot!"

DrPsyche

04:30:38 PM Jun 25th 2012edited by DrPsyche

So they just led him back? If your explanation is to be believed, then that is plausible.

Is The Lieutenant Dead? He was Blood-bent in an incredibly agonizing way, and then thrown away. Some people think that his organs were crushed, or his neck snapped when he hit the boards.. No body has died from the technique before (Onscreen anyway), but it is very easy to make something like that fatal. If he was dead, then I wonder why Amon didn't just drop him instead of throwing him away.. If he is dead, I feel it's kind of wasted potential, because they could use his character to showcase the disillusionment with the Equalist cause, and disbanding (or reorganization) of the organization.

Larkmarn

06:50:34 AM Jun 27th 2012edited by Larkmarn

Logically, he must be. He was a huge threat to Amon since he knew his secret. Amon would have to kill him to keep him quiet. Unlike the Avatar, who is "discredited" by Amon's followers, the Lieutenant's word would carry a lot of clout. It would be very foolish and not befitting Amon's ruthless nature to leave a loose end like that.

The only excuse I can think of is maybe he left him alive so he could kill him later, in a manner he could blame the Avatar for, thus turning him into a martyr.

Okay, I must question who here believes Amon knew Tarlok was going to blow them up? I for one don't. He believed he was on his way to starting a new life with his only family left and was crying because of that. Amondid not see he and his brother had crossed the Moral Event Horizon and could only find peace in their next incarnations.

I do think that he did, because he wouldn't be shedding a tear if he thought that they were going to live in peace even when the boat exploded. Unless he was thinking of something joyful, but he doesn't have that "I'm crying tears of joy" face on either.

Here's what I think: Amon was TRYING to get Tarrlok to go live peacefully, but the latter felt to guilty for his crimes, so when he said "Yeah, it'll be just like old times, I'm pretty sure Amon knew that he was thinking of something different at that very second.

ccoa

07:58:14 AM Jun 27th 2012

It's speculation, so it doesn't belong on the page. Whether we think he knew it was coming or not isn't really relevant, since the text is unclear about it. Barring Word of God, it belongs on WMG.

But it was my understanding any version of the trope, whether enforced full on, played with, averted, subverted, or any other form I have yet to think of, was fair game to be added. So, besides the above reason you cited, why is Cat Fight not eligible for this page?

MrDeath

03:43:07 PM Jun 19th 2012

Aversions are noted if the trope is expected to happen so much that the mere absence of it is notable in and of itself—as is the case in the tropes you listed, for a kids' cartoon.

Tell me, did you really expect there to be a fight between them that's "invoked for Perverse Sexual Lust purposes more than anything else"? In a Nickelodeon cartoon? So much that the absence of it struck you as entirely out of place and noteworthy?

The trope is more than just "two girls fighting," and an Aversion, to be notable enough to list, is more than just "it doesn't happen."

isoycrazy

04:13:31 PM Jun 19th 2012

I see. Given that bit of information, I accept its deletion as correct. It just felt the one provided was short on the matter. Thank you for the clarification.

loveandsausages

08:11:10 PM Jun 23rd 2012

It struck me as noteworthy. Anytime a cat fight is averted is noteworthy because of how prevalent the trope is as well as the general belief that any fight between two women will become a cat fight. They go hand in hand. Even I considered it in the back of my mind against better judgement. So I think it should be listed.

Very tempted to add Vocal Dissonance for the new General Iroh. He looks 30, sounds like a teenager. I'm all for bringing back the old voices, but seriously. He sounds like he's barely old enough to shave.

Larkmarn

05:08:47 AM Jun 19th 2012

Why don't we let him make a real appearance; it's possible that the VA played up his "Zuko-ness" for the first appearance.

At first I was in favor of him counting as the Worf Effect as he was still pretty menacing up until about "The Aftermath"... then he... wasn't. He already didn't exactly have a stellar win-lose record then, but was at least portrayed as menacing. After Asami takes him down, him going down has become something of a running joke in the show.

Maybe say something along the lines about how he was initially portrayed as a genuine threat, but... stopped. I suppose Badass Decay is a better fit.

May I ask why Idiot Ball was removed? No real explanation was given...I suppose it might count as a character trope since it's largely focused on Lin...

JBK405

09:09:54 PM Jun 17th 2012

Because the trope isn't "is defeated" and is not to be used to point out character errors. Using what weapons they have, which they are experienced and trained with, and which they think they can use to win, is a reasonable and logical decision. Even if they're wrong, they're not driving the plot with bad decisions.

Larkmarn

07:17:05 AM Jun 18th 2012

... wrapping your metal cables around the enemy's electrified weapons, when she should know full well what will happen. She's also a master earthbender, opting to use metalbending at that point is a terrible, terrible idea.

I'll give you the metalbenders against the mechatanks the first time around since it was the first time they came up against anything like that, but Lin was pretty stupid in "Turning the Tides."

Larkmarn

07:18:38 AM Jun 18th 2012

But, I agree, it's not driving the plot so in the strictest sense, it's technically not Idiot Ball. That's not a prerequisite for Distress Ball, however, which this is definitely an example of.

JBK405

07:52:03 AM Jun 18th 2012

It's her primary weapon, which she is trained and experienced with, and she didn't know that she'd be up against the Lieutenant (Not every Equalist uses electric weapons). What was she supposed to do, get rid of the equipment that she is best suited to use on the chance that she encounters some specific enemies, and then when that enemy arrives to take the time to take off her metal equipment?

She used what she had and was defeated in a way that made sense within the context of the show. That's what matters when it comes to defining tropes such as these; does it fit the character within the show. Lin acted exactly as Lin acts, so she wasn't handed the Distress Ball, she was just defeated. Distress Ball would be if she somehow changed herself to make it more easy to capture her.

Larkmarn

08:32:56 AM Jun 18th 2012

She doesn't have to take off the metal equipment, but just attack in... any way other than how she did. Yes, it's her primary weapon, but she is a master earthbender. Throw a rock, make a wall, or even strike with your whips, do anything but try to grapple with your conductive whips. That fact that Lin chose to do pretty much the worst thing in that situation is out of character; she's smarter than that.

Basically, she went with When All You Have Is a Hammer..., disregarding the other tools in her disposal. Moreover, she used said hammer in the worst way possible.

And from a meta-perspective, the reason behind her choice wasn't because it made sense, it was because the writers needed a reason for her to need saving. They wanted to show off the airbending kids, but had to get Lin out of the way first.

kenman884

12:58:46 PM Jun 18th 2012

If Lin had no idea that there was a chance of that happening, it wouldn't fit.

BUT

She knew The Lieutenant used electricity, she knew many equalist mooks used electricity, and that particular strategy has been used before. This may be a case of Damn You, Muscle Memory!, but she really should have learned not to attempt to grapple with the equalists in that manner.

Really Lin had to make a few very poor choices to be taken in the way she was. I vote Idiot/Distress Ball.

JBK405

06:59:45 PM Jun 19th 2012

I still disagree, but you have pointed out that (Whether I agree with the reasoning or not) she does something, gets defeated and needs to be rescued, which is the trope.

Rebochan

12:54:46 AM May 13th 2013

Okay, I hate to bring this back up so much later, but it looks Idiot Ball has a completely different definition that what this discussion was based on. Maybe it got reworked, I dunno, but here is this trope's definition:

"A moment where a character's stupidity fuels an episode, or a small plot line. If multiple characters have the Idiot Ball it becomes an Idiot Plot. Temporary (or permanent) Genre Blindness is often a cause of this trope. "

Making a single mistake in a long combat where the character would reasonably make a mistake from simple exhaustion is not being an idiot to drive the plot. Otherwise, ''any single instance of a character making a mistake is an Idiot Ball."

End of story. I'm going to pull this again if someone can't provide evidence of this being a serious plot driven moment of pure, out of character stupidity.

Is the Council made entirely of Benders? It's made up of representatives of each nation, but has there been any confirmation that they're all benders? We know Tenzin and Tarlokk obviously were, but episode 9 confirmed that Sokka, a non-bender, was on the council.

Several tropes make mention of this "fact" but I haven't seen anything to confirm it.

aozoi10

07:13:21 AM Jun 17th 2012

If you notice one of Korra's flashbacks, Sokka is a member.

JBK405

06:34:57 PM Jun 17th 2012

The current Council are all benders, they have referred to themselves as "us benders." That doesn't mean it's a law that they have to be benders, like aozoi pointed out Sokka was a member in the past, but just because it's not a rule doesn't mean it doesn't happen anyway.

coolman229

05:22:57 PM Jun 27th 2012

Not to mention that there was an Air Acolyte council member in the flashback. He definitely couldn't have been a bender.

I'm skeptical of the Spiritual Antithesis entry, because this is actually an official Sequel Series, not a "spiritual" sequel. However I'm reluctant to remove it because I'd like to preserve the observations under it somehow.

The Avatar and related powers are not Wrong Context Magic, because a key part of the 'rules' of Avatar is that the Avatar can do these things.

For example, the rule is not "Nobody can bend more than one element," it's "Nobody, except the Avatar, can bend more than one element." That's part of the rules, part of the context, and so are all the extra Avatar bits. The Avatar isn't breaking previously-established rules of the universe, and isn't doing something that was previously thought impossible, she's working within the established and agreed upon law of magic in this world (Magic A Is Magic A).

Amon probably is breaking the rules of the Avatar verse, but probably isn't is. We don't know how he's doing what he's doing; maybe he's not Energybending at all, but is using some sort of technology. Please note that I'm not saying Amon is using some sort of technology here, I'm only saying that we don't know. To assume that he's breaking the laws of magic in the universe when we don't have all the facts is jumping the gun.

DragonRanger

07:45:30 PM Jun 18th 2012

Sorry, didn't see this earlier because I almost never check discussion pages.

My understanding of the trope is that it refers to exceptions to the usual rules. Even if the exception (in this case, the Avatar) is widely acknowledged and recognized and/or has rules of its own, it's still an exception. I would say the same of energybending, simply because its rules are so different from elementbending. If it was widely practiced as just another bending art, that would be another story, but since only one or two people can do it (Aang, and we're assuming Amon), it qualifies as being outside the usual context.

As for Amon, he has been continually portrayed as not following the rules at all. At this point, if it does turn out he's been following bending rules, it would qualify as a subversion of the trope rather than not worthy of mention.

JBK405

07:40:39 AM Jun 27th 2012

Dragon, I think at this point we're talking past one another, since we disagree fundamentally on what the trope itself means. I'm going to go post on Ask the Tropers for a new perspective, since right now we're just going back and forth.

ccoa

07:54:13 AM Jun 27th 2012

The way I'm reading Wrong Context Magic is that it has to be a violation of Magic A Is Magic A, which is fundamentally about internal consistency. The rule of the Avatarverse is "you can only bend one element, unless you are the Avatar, and then you can bend exactly four." This is established in the opening narration in both series.

It's a borderline issue, however, since the Avatar is the exception to the rule. But since it's an exception that is set up strongly, in advance, I'd tentatively say it doesn't qualify because the exception was worked into the rule from the beginning, and thus doesn't violate consistency.

DragonRanger

09:54:18 AM Jun 27th 2012edited by DragonRanger

I agree. I've thought about it, and there's a disconnect between the spirit of the trope; a violation of internal consistency, as ccoa put it; and it's letter, which is what I've been trying to use up till now. The trope itself probably needs clarification.

Sorry if I caused any trouble.

JBK405

10:45:12 AM Jun 27th 2012

No trouble, a lot of tropes are vague and hard to understand, and I've been on the wrong end more than once. I'm glad we got it straightened out.

ccoa

11:39:20 AM Jun 27th 2012

No trouble, thank you very much for discussing it rather than edit warring. You have no idea how refreshingly rare that is! Take a Made of Win trophy.

DragonRanger

01:09:34 PM Jun 27th 2012

Thanks. This isn't my first vague trope either; I've been trying to straighten out Kid-Appeal Character off and on for a while now. But I digress.

But there is another thing about this that I'm not sure about. I don't think I'd count Amon's abilities - his true, waterbending-based ones, as an example. The way it's portrayed is that it follows all the known principles of waterbending - and maybe some unknown ones - it just takes more power and control than most benders have on their own. Other benders would be capable of it if they knew what they were doing and had their power increased like they do when the moon is full. And since he did claim to have supernatural powers outside of the context of bending, that would make his use of waterbending - abnormally powerful waterbending, but waterbending nonetheless - a subversion.

(Spoilered in case anyone hasn't seen the finale yet.)

JBK405

02:10:34 PM Jun 27th 2012

I would count his abilities as an example since nobody has ever even thought of using waterbending to take away someone's bending. They didn't even know such a thing was possible, and still don't now exactly how he does it. There's no defense against it and nobody else can do it. In the context of "using bending to move stuff" he's moved on to "using bending to take away somebody else's bending." That's way outside what the rules say bending can do.

DragonRanger

07:27:24 PM Jun 27th 2012

I tend to think of it like metalbending and bloodbending. The potential was always there, it's just that nobody knew how and they were thought impossible until Toph and Hama discovered them. There is the matter of a bender's personal power, but Hama demonstrated that there are ways to augment that.

The bottom line is that I think there's a difference between breaking rules, and following rules that nobody else knows about yet. Toph and Hama's discoveries can be explained in-context, and it feels like the same can be said for Amon's abilities - given what we know about bending being affected by the flow of chi, I can totally buy that restricting bloodflow in some form can cause damage that disrupts that flow.

At the very least, only bending-blocking would be wrong context, I think. The rest is very clearly within the bounds of normal waterbending. Even resisting bloodbending with little visible action. (Hey, if King Bumi could earthbend with just his face...)

Angst? What Angst?: Averted. Korra tries to invoke this after seeing that Amon can take peoples bending away. But after she encounters him face-to-face, she admits to Tenzin that she has never been more afraid of anything in her life.

From the trope page: The polar opposite of Wangst, this is when a character has every right to be depressed or Ax Crazy, but isn't, and life goes on.

Another excerpt: In a variant, some stories rarely have the characters angst out loud, but make it clear that they're cracking on the inside and are just putting on a brave face.

What an invoked trope is: The writer invokes a narrative trope by having a character consciously set it up.

Korra consciously tries to set herself up as unfeeling about Amon, knowing full well that the opposite is true. She knows that she's scared, but doesn't want to show it, so she invokes this trope to avoid having to avoid her own fears and having others know how she's feeling. This instance of the trope is not YMMV because it's not the audience that is questioning why Korra is not being impacted by the situation. There's an entire episode dealing with this trope in relation to Korra.

JBK405

06:34:39 AM Jun 13th 2012edited by JBK405

You're misunderstanding what 'invoked' means. it's not "Person tries to do the trope," it's "Person tries to cause trope to happen."

For example: An invoked Damsel in Distress is not somebody taking a woman captive, it's somebody putting a woman in an easily-captured situation with the plan of having somebody capture her. He's not doing the trope, he's trying to cause the trope. See the distinction?

Invoking Angst? What Angst? would be somebody causing somebody else pain with the plan of them not feeling bad afterwards. Invoking is setting up the trope, not just trying to do it.

Butterfinger

12:49:43 PM Jun 13th 2012

Looking it over, what you said does make sense. Perhaps the term I was looking for is simply in-universe. This instance of the trope does not deal with audience reaction, but rather Korra's reaction as a character to a situation, and an entire episode is spent on the idea that Korra is purposely hiding her emotions.

JBK405

12:59:17 PM Jun 13th 2012

I get what you're going for, but I don't believe it would count as in-universe, either, because it doesn't happen (As in, she never didn't angst). Aversions don't need to be listed unless the trope is so universal that it's absence is noteworthy, or its lack of inclusion had some in-story relevance. As it is, she just had a normal "I'm scared and trying not to show it or accept" reaction."

I couldn't help but notice a pattern developing in the series. Asami's mother's death, Mako and Bolin's parents' deaths, and Amon's family's death and his scarring have all been the result of a firebender.
I've been thinking: Could it be the same firebender in all three instances?

MoonyJinx

08:35:39 PM Jun 12th 2012

Don't know but we'll just have to wait and see what it's about if it ever get discussed in the series.

Five-Man Band: Generally seems to be another example of shoehorning. We've got a Hero and a Lancer, and we're trying to shoehorn other characters to try and fit a trope that for the time being doesn't fit.

The Hero: Yes, Korra is the hero of the show. But for it to be a five man band Korra has to be leading the other members, which so far she has not. I suspect she will, but until then she doesn't fit the Hero position in a five-man band.

The Smart Guy: Mako may be intelligent and street-smart, but that is not the archetype. Asami is more tech-savy than him, and certainly less in touch with large portions of society. And worse, Mako does not put together plans any more often than Korra herself. Unless of course he's the one who figures out how to beat the mech tanks or other Equalist weapons in the future, but that hasn't happened yet.

The Chick: Chick has to be the stabilizing element for the entire group, Asami only serves as emotional support of Mako. Bolin has served the chick role more often than Asami so far. So she may serve this role going forward, but again, she hasn't yet.

The Big Guy: The problem with classifying Bolin as a big guy is that he's quite simply the weakest member of the team in battle so far. No matter how much of a dumb-dumb he seems at times and how much wider his frame is than the others, you can't have a big guy who isn't a powerhouse.

xVanitas

08:50:59 PM May 27th 2012edited by xVanitas

Alright, just want to understand... We basically need to see more of the team and it's inner dynamics to fully say whether we have a proper Five-Man Band, although you are saying that one thing for certain is that Mako is The Lancer to Korra. I'll have to ask a bunch of stuff to make sure I understand, if that's okay.

So, we'll just have to wait and see if Korra will lead her team (Mako, Bolin, and Asami for sure, along with Korra herself.), which may be likely, against the Equalists, but so far, while she is the Hero of the show, she's not yet the Hero of her team. Right? Once we see her team do stuff together, maybe go raid some Equalists or something, and once we see Korra take charge, then it would be fair to fully apply the Trope to her, right?

And, since Bolin is perhaps the most emotional of the team, as well as being so far the weakest (although could his strength even be compared to Asami at the moment? We did only see both of them in like, one or two fights. Both went up against the Lieutenant. Either way, Korra and Mako have proven that they are stronger, so I do see that he's the weakest when compared to the two of them. Asami has her self-defense training and she was able to defeat the Lieutenant, however, he was caught off guard and underestimated her.), so he could fit more as The Chick, only at the moment, right?

In fact, perhaps since Korra is the strongest so far, and how into fighting she is, perhaps she could count as The Hero and The Big Girl?

As for The Smart Guy... Mako's street-smarts and trickery do prove his intelligence, and from the trope page itself:
"Some incarnations have The Smart Guy be less of a genius, and more of a Deadpan Snarker; a wisecracking, street-smart Trickster who has traded in strength for intelligence, and uses his guile and wits to outwit his foes. This type may well be The Lancer if roles are overlapping, or the Token Evil Teammate. "

Does that not apply to Mako? It's agreed that he is The Lancer, he might not know about the Equalist mechs and weaponry as much as Asami might, but he has also proven to use his wits and trickery, like against the Metalbending officer.

But what you're saying is, we need to see him actually formulate plans on how exactly to accomplish any goal they may need to, like raiding an Equalist base and seeking out Amon or something. His street smarts and trickery may prove he's smart, but to fully be The Smart Guy, he needs to be coming up with ALL of the plans. Is that what you're saying?

Well, maybe not so sure about Beifong. We did just see her claim that she'll now go against the law, but not necessarily joining Korra's team. She may just be an independent force for that matter, but so far, we just are not sure. So she can not count as The Sixth Ranger, right?

ashlay

09:47:24 PM May 27th 2012edited by ashlay

I know the 5 man band page says it can be four, but generally if you have to drop it to 4, you shouldn't be making any other stretches. (And that clause may actually be removed as well, as the trope's currently undergoing repair.) "Leader, dissent, brains, brawn, and heart", that's the setup.

Basically yes, we need to see more of this new 4-man team's interactions. Because let's face it: the 3-man fire ferrets weren't any combo of "Leader, dissent, brains, brawn, and heart" when acting as a team. Bolin played heart in episode 5, and that's it. Korra never led the group, Mako never came up with a plan, Bolin was never the tough one, etc. There's no way we can just assume the dynamics of this new one are going to move to "Leader, dissent, brains, brawn, and heart" yet.

Bolin might be the heart on a more regular basis, but we have to see. And If Korra is Leader/Brawn and Mako is Dissent/Brains, it's not a 5 man band. Again, a single person holding 2 roles is pushing it. Any more and it's just not that trope.

And yes, Mako may have qualities of a secondary type of brains, but that doesn't mean much when you've got Asami exhibiting the more standard qualities of the archetype. The point really is that qualities don't matter, what matters is that the character has to be the brains of the team, which Mako has not been to date.

Pabu and Naga fit Team Pet. Tenzin should not be included for now, as he's only Korra's mentor instead of the team's (though that could change).

And yes, we cannot assume Lin will even be part of that current team. and even if she was, she would not be The Sixth Ranger, as they only have 4 members. Having a standard 5 will usually just reveal the 4 man team never quite fit the trope, "fixing" the 5 man band dynamic instead of breaking it.

So one more time: Five-Man Band is first and foremost a group dynamic trope. We cannot say Korra's group is a 5-man band until we've a) confirmed the makeup of the new group and b) seen their dynamic as a team working together. So Mako can be smart, but if he's not the brains of the group it's not a 5-man band. Korra may be the hero, but if she's not leading the group, it's not a 5-man band. Asami may be pretty and girly, but if she's not the heart of the group it's not a 5-man band. And Bolin may be an earth bender, but if he's not the muscle of the group it's not a 5-man band.

Can we change the page quote? It doesn't really provide any insight into the show other than "this show has an awesome female protagonist!" (paraphrased). While true, that is not really the main point of this show. Are there any quotes that better represent some of the major themes from Korra? Preferably in-universe, but maybe something from the creators could work as well.

aquartertwo

02:09:51 AM Jun 15th 2012

I think The Lieutenant and Korra's "dialogue" in "The Revelation" deserves some merit for the page quote, It kind of sums up the events of Book 1.

Lieutenant: "You benders have to understand. There's no place for you anymore."

Korra (after knocking him out with Earthbending): "I wouldn't count us out just yet."

Either that or Tenzin's intro for the first episode.

Taevin

02:32:18 AM Jul 1st 2012

I vote for the Lieutenant and Korra's dialogue. It does a much better job of establishing Korra as a character as well as the central conflict of the show, rather than saying that this is an action series starring a female. It's also far more succinct than Tenzin's intro.

Alright, regarding the deletion of this line of the culture police example.: "The Council's anti-Equalist task force, in turn, targets the Equalist's chi-blocking dojos, stamping out Muggle martial arts in the process of fighting terrorists." The example remains valid.

Yes Tarrlock and Korra are fighting terrorists. That's not in dispute. But providing an in-universe justification why Tarrlock and his task force are in the right to stamp out the cultural vectors of the (only) Muggle-developed martial artform does not invalidate the example, because Tarrlock's line of reasoning doesn't negate the fact Benders are waging a Culture War against Muggles by targeting Equalist dojos. (They're taking away the means of learning the martial art of chi-blocking, suggesting that only benders may learn an offensive martial artform, or have one as part of their culture) In-universe, even Tenzin picks up on the Culture War implication, which is why he calls out Tarrlock on Not Helping Your Case and driving a wedge between the benders and non-benders. If culture ceases to be valid when exploited to malicious ends, then Amon is in the right for wanting to eliminate the bending arts, after all.

fakeangelbr

10:23:30 AM May 30th 2012

Do we know that the dojos targeted were the only ones that existed in the city? Would it be any different if instead of martial arts, they were learning how to shoot to gun?

The moment that one group can be labeled as "terrorist", any kind of justification for their activities becomes null.

MrDeath

11:22:21 AM May 30th 2012

It's less about learning martial arts or learning to shoot a gun, and more learning a specific martial art, in secret, specifically in order to instigate and perpetuate a war against people in the city. This wasn't some public, unaffiliated dojo, this was a secret basement with Amon's face all over it, where the instructors and students were all wearing masks.

It's not teaching them, "Here's how to defend yourself," it's teaching them, "Here's how we're going to bring down the government and take over."

And no, those wouldn't be the only dojos in the city, and I doubt there's any effort to remove or prevent normal people from learning martial arts—nobody in Korra's group bats an eye at Asami mentioning she knows some martial arts, for instance.

FunstuffofDoom

10:39:08 PM Jun 5th 2012

The implication of the show wasn't that secret dojos were being taken down, it was that all dojos were being taken down, provided they taught that particular art. So if you openly practiced chi-blocking, in a public setting, with no affiliation to Amon, and no intention of ever fighting a bender, you were still just as valid a target as a member of Amon's organization.

fakeangelbr

06:12:28 PM Jun 7th 2012

Uh, no it wasn't. The only dojo they show being attacked is very clearly an equalist training ground.

I added an image of Amon to the Nightmare Fuel page, but it turned out kind of rough. If anyone feels like added a better quality image, go right ahead. I just thought some dark shot of Amon was needed for the page.

Two items:
One, should the Fridge Brilliance and Fridge Horror entries be divided by episodes? There appear to be several episode-related ones, and we're only five episodes in.

Two, should there be a quotes page like on ATLA? There already appear to be some rather popular ones, perhaps having a page dedicated to them would be nice.

Vincenth

07:20:46 AM May 12th 2012

I second the quotes page, but it's important that memes and quotes remain separate.

MysticSongbird

09:03:14 AM May 12th 2012

I also put my vote in for a quotes page but, I'm not really sure about the fridge. I mean, how much fridge is there really? Am I just missing it?

player2start

12:44:06 PM May 12th 2012

As far as sorting the fridge entries, it's a bit of a pre-emptive organizing idea. If you look at the entries for Avatar, you'll see the list is rather long. Sorting them by episode and general and such may make navigation easier. I'm not talking about using folders, just headers really.

player2start

05:33:59 PM May 12th 2012

Alright, started the Quotes page. Needs work appearance-wise I'm sure, but at least it's there. :D

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but this is the first wiki I've ever worked on, so please bear with me. I know basically nothing about editing or entering information, all I've done so far is make some entries in fridge brilliance and horror, but I tend to have a lot of free time on my hands, and I would like to help keep things organized and coherent. For example, I think it would be a good idea to sort the Fridge entries into episodes and general. I still need to learn a lot about how to actually do stuff, but what I mainly want to ask here is what could use help with organization or categorization? Also, what are the general guide lines for correcting other entries? For example, would it be improper to shorten WMG's that have been Jossed? (A rather ironic question, as I'm quite wordy myself)

In summary, any suggestions for organizing information? And what potential faux pas are there regarding entry editing?

ProgenyExMachina

09:13:33 PM May 6th 2012

I really wouldn't touch anyone else's entries on pages like WMG other than to fix spelling/grammar or broken formatting. Otherwise, I don't think organizing stuff a bit would be unwelcome, but you should still ask first if you're not sure.

Telcontar

02:56:23 AM May 7th 2012

Sorting stuff is generally fine, provided you say that's what you're doing. It makes things a lot easier with regards to avoiding duplicates, finding entries, and splitting pages when they get too big. Editing someone's actual entry except for what's stated above is bad form, and deleting stuff shouldn't be done unless it's a duplicate or trolling. Other than that, go for it!

Korra does not fit as an Amazonian Beauty, though fit she is not bulky or of greater size than other characters, but Bolin does count as an Amazon Chaser, since of the things he lists for her positive qualities was how fit she was (Right? I think he did, but I can't recall the exact quote). Amazon Chaser should be added to his character page.

"If fire and water are opposites, then what's the opposite of air?"
"That's why it's so hard for you to get this; you're working with your natural opposite."
—Katara

"Water was especially difficult for me. But, in time, I mastered it as well."
—Avatar Roku (Fire nation native)

"Often the element that's the most difficult for the Avatar to master is the one most opposite to the Avatar's personality. For Aang, it was earth."
—Master Tenzin

I'm sorry, but if this isn't a Retcon, then please tell me what is.
Or failing that, please define Retcon in terms that causes it to not be applied to this situation.
Sure, maybe Katara was being metaphorical. At best, that still makes this a revision, because it creates a circular chicken vs. egg argument: Either Aang is a doormat because of his upbringing and training as an airbender, or airbending training comes naturally and easily to Aang because he's a doormat. Logically, the former is most likely correct because it's implied that you are born being a bender, while personality traits are all learned.

MrDeath

07:26:48 AM May 4th 2012

I don't think it's a Retcon because Korra was trained differently from every other Avatar. Every other Avatar only started training in the other elements after they'd grown up and their personality had, more or less, solidified at the age of 16. Korra started being trained at the age of 4, so she wasn't raised with just a Waterbending mindset. Her personality ended up being shaped by all three of the other elements besides Air—since that was the last one she was supposed to be trained in, she probably wasn't exposed to much of its philosophy at all until she was in her teens, and her personality had started to set.

LordKnightcon

09:37:00 AM May 5th 2012

If it's not a Retcon, then it means the creators always intended the personality to be the deciding factor.

So why did Roku say the the most difficult element for him was water? Because his aggressive, driven, no-nonsense nature did not lend itself to the Waterbending discipline of flowing with the opponent, adaptability, and flexibility? That's not what Roku was like at all. He was a pretty likeable and easy-going guy. In fact, he even says to Aang that his biggest regret was being too merciful to kill Sozen when he had the chance.

Tenzin's attitude towards Korra when addressing this also indicates this is nothing special. He sounds like he's talking to a child about puberty, or about the nervousness of going on a first date. He suggests this is something that every Avatar goes through, and explicitly for this reason. This isn't what they say or even imply in the original show.

Finally, there's no good reason to assume Korra started her Avatar training at age 4. Aang, after being raised as only an Airbender, mastered all of the elements in less than a year when he was 12. Korra is now 17 which could just as easily suggest she started when she was 16, like she was supposed to, and progressed at a similar rate to Aang.

The Nightmare Fuel and High Octane Nightmare Fuel pages are exactly the same. Literally, I mean, like, word for word.

Should someone delete one of them, are we eventually going to start adding distinct examples to each of the pages?

Telcontar

09:37:00 AM May 1st 2012

There are some changes happening to Nightmare Fuel. In brief, all wicks to HONF (and maybe ANF — I'm less clear on that one) are being changed to NF and pages in the HONF namespace are getting cleaned and moved to NF (so the original will be cut; in this case, that simplt hasn't happened yet). See this thread for more information and to help with the cleanup.

Can I get some help categorizing a trope for Korra? I'm a new troper here, and the editing tips didn't help (or I havn't found the right ones.) Spoilers abound for episode 4 of korra, (A voice in the night.)

Again Spoilers, read at your own risk.

Near the end of the episode, Korra experiences some abuse at the hands of her antagonist Amon in an event that is very close to rape. This event seems to break korra pretty good, and although Amon did not physically harm her (outside of knocking her out) he seems to have done some pretty good psychological damage.

The note covering the repeated appearances of some characters in the background should not be listed under the Cast of Snowflakes trope. If it turns out that these are the same characters appearing over and over again then it's simply irrelevent to the trope, because the trope is about drawing characters to be distinguishable from one another, and has no bearing on their role in the series, number of appearances, etc. If it turns out that these aren't actually the same character, and are just the same models being used over and over again, then it actually disproves the trope, since that's the very essence of what the trope isn't.

Either way, a note mentioning that the same people appear in the background in several scenes does not belong under Cast of Snowflakes, since either way it isn't the trope.

Okay Republic Citizens, there seems to be confusion as to what the main page is for. The answer is everything not character or YMMV related. There's no trope too specific. Per mod Fighteer: All tropes that a work uses are "notable" in the sense that they belong on the work's page. If a trope was ever used by the work, even if it was in Minor Scene 25 of Season 5, Episode 20, it is valid to include it. Its notpolicy or routine, to use Recap pages as dumping grounds for episode specific tropes, (they mirror instead) and we only split pages into alphabetical subsections once a 400000+ character limit is reached Check the lower lefthand corner for the numeric value.(the smaller number immediately below it is of no consequence) Trope Overdosed is a measure of wick count, (a badge of honor for the Entry Pimp) not page size, and we are barely over 300 wicks, nowhere near a thousand. Its also not meant to be a disparagement or an indicator that examples need be removed. (That's an issue of quality, and whether a trope is being misused, not quantity)

I was bouncing Hot Amazon or even Amazonian Beauty through my head while re-watching the online episodes when I realized that Korra doesn't really fit any body type - just by shifting posture she can go from wiry elegance, to muscular power, or even late-teenaged-girl cuteness. I don't even know where I'm going with this, except maybe that the animators rock.

Where'd all the rest of the tropes come from like the additional information about amon and his crew with just two episodes? are there new episodes or did this just come from promotional materials?

Aiguille

01:56:32 PM Apr 5th 2012

Well, there's the nickelodeon press site (from which the pilot was likely leaked before its limited korranation streaming) trailers and some advance interviews, plus the 2011 Comic Con Panel, and korranation itself. They cultivated a lot of advance buzz through various channels.

Is the page picture we have right now really the best choice? People can already tell the title from...well, the page title. Surely something with the main character(s), like we had before, would be better?

MayesBookworm

08:18:45 PM Mar 25th 2012

I agree. I like the one that was before it with all the characters. Why was it changed?

ccoa

08:48:09 AM Mar 27th 2012

I'd suggest going through Image Pickin' on the forums. That way, once it's changed it can't be arbitrarily changed back without going through IP again.

I know I know, not the right place, but I didn't know where to put this.

How about in this series we start out a well developed recap page? The original series is overbursting with tropes I suspect because of this problem, could we start a system with each episode getting a page?(we all know there will be more then enough tropes for each..) like Doctor who, MLP, and other shows get? It almost baffles me that a show this enormous on this site doesn't have that system. I Honestly don't know how this works. so, suggestions?

Yes, Nickelodeon does need to adjust the US title to get rid of the nonsensical Artifact

MegaJ

11:15:32 AM Mar 2nd 2012

Not so non-sensical due to James Cameron. In any case, The Last Airbender: Legend Of Korra is the official title.

JBK405

11:25:05 AM Mar 2nd 2012

There was this discussion on the previous discussion page where it was decided that it should be moved here. if we're just going to go back and forth there should be a much more thought-out discussion.

It's quick, but is essentially the same conversation that happened two posts up (The official name is XXX, let's change it).

MegaJ

03:26:06 PM Mar 3rd 2012

Oh okay. That link didn't really have proof of the change...we have the official website that labels it The Last Airbender: Legend of Korra. Before I move anything, yeah there should be more discussion.

United Republic is the new country's name, whatever its borders are, but Republic City is still the city's name. Mike and Bryan repeatedly referred to the city as Republic City. For instance, specifically calling Toph's daughter the Chief of Police of Republic City.

Added a Fridge Brilliance entry to the YMMV tab, just in case people disagree (but it seems to be a very good explanation).

Fridge Brilliance: Why is Korra, a 16-year-old water bender, already a fully-realized avatar who knows 3 out of 4 elements? Because Bryke owes us a Book Four: Air, and that's the last element she needs to learn. The series also started with Book One: Water, which is her base element. Clever, Bryke, very clever.

About the Hey Its That Voice section: When was it stated that Dee Bradley Baker's daughter would be voicing Korra in a flashback? Also, the description for the show says it takes 75 years after the original. Should it be changed to 70?

Changed "And The Fandom Went Splodey" to "And The Fandom Went Squee". Splodey wasn't sitting well with me and squee is a much better description of the fanbase reaction. If everyone else is more partial to Splodey we can revert it, but Squee deserves at least a trial run.

anrwlias

03:01:19 PM Aug 27th 2010

There was a lot of irrational fan posts complaining about characters, setting, etc, in addition to the squees of glee, so I feel that splodey made sense, at the time. On the other hand, it seems that the squee has come to dominate the reaction, at this point, so I think we can go with that, for now.

I agree that leaving this on the main page is more trouble than it is worth:

And it becomes even more insulting and Wallbanging when Zutarans claim Tenzin is the product of a ONE-NIGHT STAND between Aang and Katara. They absolutely refuse to believe that Katara and Aang genuinely love each other, and want Katara to get together with Zuko ultimately. Is it any wonder why Zutarans are becoming the Avatar Fanbase's 'cancer' in how they refuse to change their minds or even admit for one moment that their ship isn't a doomed relationship.

But could someone, anyone, explain why this particular One True Pairing will not die?

AlmightyHamSandwich

09:53:47 AM Aug 23rd 2010edited by AlmightyHamSandwich

Zutara shippers are some of the most rabid shippers in fiction. Must have something to do with Zuko being a Woobie with major abandonment issues regarding his mother and Katara having abandonment issues with her father as well as being Team Mom, which I guess in their minds makes them perfect for one another. So perfect they won't let little things like Official Couple or Kataang having a son together interfere with Zutara.

At least, that's just my best stab at it.

SalFishFin

11:36:17 AM Aug 23rd 2010

They have that whole Yin/Yang thing going on. Plus, Zuko lost his mother, Katara acts like a mother...

...Yeah, I tried.

72.93.214.69

11:38:17 AM Aug 23rd 2010edited by 72.93.214.69

Hey, people ship what they ship. Doesn't always have to be a solid reason. [/zen]

SalFishFin

12:18:45 PM Aug 23rd 2010

That philosophy only applies to crack shipping... Wait, we're talking about Zutara here. That explanation fits perfectly. Thank you, I'll be here practically every day for the rest of my life.

ProgenyExMachina

03:11:29 PM Aug 27th 2010edited by ProgenyExMachina

-snerk-

In all seriousness, though, I don't usually bother looking for a good argument for my ships, crack or otherwise (in fact, when I do try to explain a ship, it's almost always a crack ship). Honestly, if I like two people together, I'll ship it, and screw what everyone else thinks...my philosophy is closer to "each person has their own tastes" than "my ship rules and yours sucks, go get yourself immolated". Maybe the fact that I don't feel the need to explain it to others also means I don't feel the need to explain it to myself. I just like what I like. I'm sure that's how it is for almost everyone, really, at a core level — who would bother trying to back up a shipping for which they didn't just happen to have a personal preference? Maybe those kids on the debate team...academics, y'know, but most of us aren't all...academic-y.

Aaand there goes my attempt to be concise...and not sound like I have a stick up my ass. :P

(Oh, and yes, the 72.whatever person is me...sometimes. Shared computer, y'see. That one was me though.)

ProgenyExMachina

08:07:27 PM Aug 30th 2010

To add: According to Extras, the staff originally toyed with the pairing, but most likely dismissed it long before the series started. Maybe there's a bit of leftover chemistry from the early planning stages. (I'm trying to sound completely shipping-neutral here, and so will accept that I also sound unobservant enough to not know whether or not my guesstimate has any merit.)

mythbuster

08:13:18 PM Jun 23rd 2012

And apparently it isn't enough for them to ship them in their old age. Want to obsess about Zutara? Go right ahead and ship them after Aang and Zuko's wife are dead.

Tv Tropers are as hyenas when it comes to picking apart random articles for tidbits of info on a show. We scavange what juicy scraps we can from Word of God and naw on the bones.

AlmightyHamSandwich

09:42:00 AM Aug 23rd 2010

It's from the casting director, which is as good a source as any short of the creators themselves. I don't consider all those WM Gs truly Jossed just yet, but the guesses are definitely on life support.

How can Meelo possibly have acheived Scrappy statis already? We havn't even met the guy yet, much seen a defining picture of him. GET A HOLD OF YOURSELVES PEOPLE! For all we know, he's the minion with an F in evil for the antibenders, or is Korra's younger brother whom tags along despite protests. Seriously, if anybody hates him, it must the extreme Fan Dumb who are still bitter about the fall of Zutara. I demand a recount.

Korval

08:06:57 PM Jul 26th 2010

I think it has to do with oversensitivity/butthurt after Epic Fail of The Film. Anything they see that they don't like even slightly becomes the Dragons at the gate.

Malchus

01:05:14 AM Jul 27th 2010edited by Malchus

Nope. It's just plain Fan Dumb jumping to rash conclusions. Anyone still remember people bitching about the team dynamics being ruined when it was announced there was going to be a new addition to the team before the second season of ATLA was aired? Then it was announced that the new team member would be a blind little Earthbender girl. Naturally, this prompted eye-rolling about token lolis with "attitude" and a disability superpower made just to set an example for little girls; or be Inspirationally Disabled; or just for token "girl power" value or whatever other reason.

Two seasons of Toph later, and she's now an Ensemble Darkhorse andis considered one of the best characters of the series. The pre-Season 2 complaints now utterly buried under much fan-love and gushing. Heh.

72.8.54.130

07:33:18 AM Jul 27th 2010

So, can somebody change poor Meelo's characterization before people start to get wrong idea?

beeftony

10:43:30 AM Jul 27th 2010

I've deleted the example entirely. It's simply too early to draw any conclusions, and talking about the fandom's reaction is something that people really don't need to be informed of at this point. Let's wait until the damn show airs and we see everyone in action.

There are about three different edit wars going on at the same time. What the fuck, guys.

The show hasn't even started yet, and already people are potholing to "Too Dumb To Live" and ignoring the warnings of fellow editors that potholing to that stuff will attract Natter and bile. This is how a page gets locked. Let's try to avoid going down the road, shall we?

It says on the main wiki intro that Korra is a Mini Series. This was listed as unconfirmed by Avatar wiki, shown in the Rumor catagory. Unless somebody has proof it is a confirmed mini series, or otherwise, that 'fact' should be removed until we have more information.

I love how it's been like two or three days after the announcement, with one picture showing the heroine from the back, one paragraph about the story in a press release, and one interview that didn't contribute very much to what we knew from the paragraph...and the page already lists twenty tropes. Plus there are now 221 deviantART results for "korra." Oh, Avatar fandom.

The thing that really has me wailing "Oh, Avatar fandom" in despair is the shipping community. Nearly every forum I've been to that's discussing this always has someone with an axe to grind about Katara and Aang getting it on and begetting Tenzin. Hell, even the main page had someone claiming (before I deleted it a stealth this troper shipper rant) that the creators were trying to drive away half the fandom by having Tenzin as Aang and Katara's son. What? The series ended with Katara and Aang as an Official Couple, and them having a son in the sequel is targetted at shippers now? Ugh.

beeftony

10:47:22 PM Jul 24th 2010

It's called Fan Dumb for a reason. Personally, I'm staying out of the official forums until this actually airs. I made the mistake of peeking at what people thought the movie was going to be like, and it completely destroyed any excitement I had. I still haven't seen it.

Iverum

12:45:16 PM Jul 25th 2010

Blah, and some unknown troper is edit warring about one side of the shipping being Too Dumb to Live. If it continues it should be reported on the forum.

beeftony

01:41:08 PM Jul 25th 2010

If it's attracting that kind of attention, maybe we should consider removing the example entirely. It doesn't seem to add much.

LadyJuse

02:14:50 PM Jul 25th 2010

Back to original topic discussion for the insano Avatar fandom, I think the Korra Effect has a nice ring to it...

Quaero

04:51:30 PM Jul 25th 2010

It deserves to be a trope. Are there any other instances of something like this happening?

RhymeBeat

04:57:20 PM Jul 25th 2010

The Pokemon fandom has a lot of fan art for a pre realeased game.

Virodhi

04:57:25 PM Jul 25th 2010edited by Virodhi

Pretty much all the time these days, I'd say. The internet seems to have reached some sort of critical mass for it. Press release on an upcoming (insert media-thing-of-your-choice) release, however vague? Fansites, communities and whatnot EXPLODE. Speculation abounds. Trolls skip merrily through the woods. Witness the Dragon Age communities now that DA 2 has been announced. Or, hell, the Girl Genius lj community every time a new page goes up (bring earplugs, the cries of "CALLED IT!", followed by endless speculation about where the story is going, can and will blow out your eardrums).

72.8.54.130

11:29:14 AM Jul 26th 2010

I think we already did come up with a name for it, we merged two tropes to make And The Fandom Went Splodey. I think that's perfect.

That's not even half as bad as the Korra/Tenzin shippers. I mean, even when you ignore the fact that Tenzin would be dating the reincarnation of his father he must have a good thirty year age gap between himself and Korra. FanDumb indeed.

Here's hoping Azula got loose and decided to take her revenge on Aang.

DrMutton

09:54:32 PM Jul 30th 2010

I'm guessing a heart attack would be more likely.

Nuxx

07:20:00 PM Jul 31st 2010

His century in the iceberg is a pretty simple way to explain Aangs death at around his late 60s, early 70s. He was technically a 170 years old (well his spirit was) so its a pretty clever way to keep some old characters alive and have a new Avatar in the picture.

anrwlias

01:14:03 PM Aug 11th 2010

Besides, I'm pretty sure that Azula would be far more interested in killing Zuko if she ever did get out.

newtroper

04:35:21 AM Apr 12th 2012

If the young looking statue of Aang has anything to do with how hhe looked during his last days, I think it would tie into what Born In 1142 said.

MrDeath

06:46:08 AM Apr 12th 2012

The statue was probably commissioned when Aang helped found the city, or based on how he looked at his prime, rather than how he looked during his last days.

That's not the point. Burn the Witch! describes a scenario in which a small community, not comprehending the powers of whomever they've decided to persecute, assigns an arbitrary label to them that is in no way accurate but which allows for swift execution. Also, there tends to be actual witch-burning involved.

With Fantastic Racism, the source of the power is known and disputed on its own terms, though a few stereotypes are bound to get mixed in there. Literal racism is not required for it to be this trope; it only needs to be an allegory for it. It also indicates a more prolonged hatred within society itself, rather than just an isolated incident.

The show is still a long way away from airing, but based on the press release information, what they've described hews closer to Fantastic Racism.

96.234.4.79

08:34:14 PM Jul 21st 2010

Personally, I don't think either trope fits.

beeftony

11:18:55 PM Jul 21st 2010

Then delete it or replace it with one that you think does fit. It's a free wiki, after all.

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