Am I happy with my send? Do I want to challenge myself further by placing draws myself? Who cares what you call your send. If you accomplished what you set out to do, that's all that matters. Very few of us are making money for sending things cleanly, ground up, onsight, etc. Why judge someone on how they completed the route? If they are pleased with their send, be happy for them. Don't tell them, "Oh, but you stick clipped and used hanging draws. I've done it skipping every other draw, so I'm a hardman."

Uummm Yeah...

Maybe at some point in a lot of peoples lives they can't really climb harder so they have to climb cleaner or with better style. Or maybe some people like to do both. I for one have struggled to push the 5.13 marker and have stepped back to try to climb a grade easier cleaner, in better style in hope of making that jump. So that is why discussions like this matter to some. You can call your climbs whatever you want. This is what we call ours.

I think the distinction was lost between pink and red when climbers started leaving the draws on most of the hard routes in a given area. Then there are the permadraws like the chain ones in the Arsenal, hard to "redpoint" these.

Pink-vs red is really a matter to be discussed in gear climbs where there is a noticeable difference in difficulty. I think many climbers leave their draws on routes so they don't have to hassle with cleaning them, which can be a workout itself on steep routes. Also athletic routes are supposed to be about the movement and not the protection. So enjoy the movement. If you want to get scared making hard clips then go climb some gear routes.

No one's mentioned in this thread that you should get at least a letter grade higher w/ fixed draws. Like teeing off from the reds. So if you think you are really solid showing up at a crag and stringing up an 11c from the ground, 11d should be in your range with the draws in place. Same goes with 10b if you're solid at 9+. And so on.

Interesting how this thread got resurrected from February. Please pardon my ignorance, but I guess we are talking about the gym, right? This may not be a popular perspective, but it's the truth in the Wild. You can't claim a lead, let alone a _____point if you didn't place your own gear on lead. It seems that if you just care about _____points and the numbers, then perhaps that's where the gym is the appropriate place? How about rehearsals? Rap bolting? We can bring the rock down to our level or rise to meet its challenge. Mr. Robbins would agree. (Submitted with respect for all, and knowing that everyone climbs for a different reason.)

The beauty of ethics is that it takes place in the mind and beliefs of the individual. What I find intriguing here is how the standards seem to change with the difficulty of the climb. If the climb is hard (5.12) or very hard (5.13) fixed draws are acceptable cause that is a hard climb [to you]. But, what if 5.9 is hard and 5.10 is very hard for you? Are fixed draws ok? I love how people justify things in life based on difficulty [from their perspective]. Preplaced gear makes the climb easier no matter what the difficulty rating whether it is sport, trad, alpine, 5.9 or 5.13, period.

Again, ethics take place in the mind. If you feel good about your send, then you feel good about your send. Enjoy it! If something feels amiss, you may have not met your own standards. Go do it again in the style that feels right to you.

There are many ascents out there that people call redpoints. To me, many of these ascents are Brownpoints, soiled or stained if you will.

Anyone who thinks that you have to place draws yourself in order to claim a redpoint for hard sport climbing clearly hasn't climbed somewhere with much hard (at least hard overhung) sport climbing. Cleaning some routes at the RRG that are really overhung is almost more work than climbing them. It is stupid, dangerous, and almost impossible to clean after each burn. You'd get 1/5 the number of people or burns on the route in a day.

Sorry Bill, but that response is well..ignorant. If I want to lead Pump-a-rama I would have to remove all 8 of the fixed chain draws and relead it with my own draws? What if I was going for an Onsight? So I guess I should bring a C-wrench with me to Rifle so I can lead routes right? Otherwise I am just top roping? I don't know of many .13's there that don't have draws on them almost all season. Do I also have to remove all fixed gear from a trad route before I consider it a lead?

Perhaps, Kevin, perhaps. Please keep in mind that the following light-hearted discourse is likely between 2 guys that climb for completely different reasons and have equally different perspectives. Neither of which is more or less right or wrong than the next . . . just different. But as long as we're using extreme examples such as permanently altered routes like Pump-a-rama, and sarcastic perspectives, then we can discuss further the merits of fixed chains. Whoever placed the chains there has forever robbed anyone of the possibility of a clean and virtuous ascent of this route, no? An onsight is forever impossible now, since the gear is preplaced. Can anyone really look in the mirror and feel that they got an onsight redpoint on a route where they did not place a single piece of gear? If the answer is yes, then perhaps we are talking about the apples and broccoli of climbing. Maybe one cannot compare trad routes with sport routes at all. An onsight redpoint of the Sphinx Crack is a very different thing than the onsight redpoint of Pump-a-rama.

Kevin Stricker wrote:

Do I also have to remove all fixed gear from a trad route before I consider it a lead?

How about rehearsals? Rap bolting? We can bring the rock down to our level or rise to meet its challenge. Mr. Robbins would agree.

Whoa! I went to bed last night in 2009 and woke up in 1988! Weird! I guess they finally got this internet-thingy up to Jamestown. Bill- look at the thread category up top under the banner: Forum > Sport Climbing. What exactly does rise to the challenge mean? Can you lead Supercrack on hexes? Actually, even with those you are utilizing man-made technology, thereby bringing the rock down to your level to an extent. A huge distinction between sportos and tradiban is the willingness to impose artificial constructs. Do you lower to the ground and start over each time you fall/hang? You're supposed to, you know. But then, that 1st attempt becomes a rehearsal, doesn't it? If you fail on the onsight (and don't let anyone tell you the grade), do you walk away forever? So, where do all these abstract parameters end? That whole "rise to meet the challenge" thing always sets me off. Anything less than a naked, chalkless, ropeless onsight free-solo is bringing the rock down somewhat. The era of "if you're not dyin' your'e not tryin" " is over, big guy.

i will be the one to throw it out there that many many routes at a harder level are intentionally bolted to have the draws in place for the send, in that if they were cleaned, then hanging the draws on an onsight or redpoint would be very difficult, if not impossible on some routes.

(this could start another debate of how the routes "should" be bolted. to that, i would say, go put up a route and show us.)

Why would we, as a group of language users, choose to limit our vocabulary regarding the style in which a climb was completed?

FACT: It is easier to climb a route that is near your limit if the draws are pre-hung.

Therefore, why discard the very language that allows us to make this distinction?

One answer is ego. People want to tell themselves that they redpointed a climb because it makes them feel better about their effort. And before anyone flames me, remember that I also have an ego that plays a part in my climbing. Hell, I have a website that's all about my climbing experiences... and I'm a VERY mediocre climber. (as far as hard sport climbing goes, I'm downright terrible)

Another answer is that it is easier to generate interest from the climbing community if the rags (or the Internet, or the campfire talk) say something was redpointed vs. pinkpointed. Why? Because it's harder to redpoint and therefore we, as a group, give more respect to a redpoint than a pinkpoint.

Though there have been many great points raised in this discussion, I think GregD's carries the most weight for me...

"ethics take place in the mind. If you feel good about your send, then you feel good about your send. Enjoy it! If something feels amiss, you may have not met your own standards. Go do it again in the style that feels right to you."

do what you want. NO ONE cares if you "pink" or "red" pointed your current 5.12 project...except you. if you like the extra thrill and work go for it.

on many of the overhanging routes in the 5.13 and above range the ability to hang the draws while climbing is extremely difficult. due to the position one needs clip from you almost have to have a draw hanging on many of them. for most climbers this isn't the point of the sport climbing...

personally I'd always rather have the draws up and concentrate on the movement. plenty of opportunity for fumbling with gear while trad climbing.

and no an 11c isn't automatically downgraded to an 11a. totally dependent on the climb and how hard the bolts are to reach, how the clipping holds are, etc...

"Why would we, as a group of language users, choose to limit our vocabulary regarding the style in which a climb was completed?

FACT: It is easier to climb a route that is near your limit if the draws are pre-hung.

Therefore, why discard the very language that allows us to make this distinction?

One answer is ego . . .

Another answer is that it is easier to generate interest from the climbing community . . ."

Yet another answer is that most people find removing draws between attempts to be a silly waste of time and effort: the sport is climbing, not draw attaching/detaching. The "meat" of the protection on a sport climb (the bolts/hangers) are fixed; it is a mostly an arbitrary aspect of climbing hardware that the draw is separate from the hanger.

If the hanger is attached with a removable nut, should the climbers take the hangers off between attempts also? That would certainly make the climb harder and then oh so more impressive.

Climbing is a sport with no rules, so do whatever you want (unless you're in a competition, where they have rules, and, hmmmmm, they leave the draws hanging).