Yes, I am, because you say you have played KOTOR II so you should know that Revan never "fell to the Dark Side".

The idea of Revan never falling is completely incompatible with the previously established fundamental nature of the Force and how it works. I'm well aware of this ridiculous theory (which is built on nothing more than player character bias) and I do not subscribe to it.

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Yet despite this, the Sith often become nothing more than animals. Why? Because they have no compassion to regulate their other emotions. Revan employed passion, but that included compassion for life. This is what makes him superior to Jedi and Sith alike.

Yeah, the fact that Revan is willing to kill quadrillions of people (civilians and military personnel on both sides of the war included) shows how compassionate he is. Give me a break. Revan was as much of a depraved murderer as any other Sith Lord. It's simply preposterous how people think that Revan was not evil despite his actions (which include numerous cases of wanton genocide) simply because he believed it was the lesser of two evils or whatever, as if there's any difference between his reasons and those of Darth Sidious. There is no fundamental difference between the two. The only thing that Darth Revan did that Sidious didn't was turn back to the light side.

Really, the only indication we get of Revan's supposed nobelness is the personal opinion of Kreia, who was not only a Sith Lord herself, but also Revan's teacher, meaning that the idea of manipulating and murdering countless innocent people could easily be justified from her viewpoint.

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Revan's Empire was still acquiring Jedi who left the Order during the Jedi Civil War. If Kun's corruption was so great, then why did such powerful Jedi as Nomi Sunrider oppose him with sheer conviction?

You forget the fact here that there were no great Jedi Masters who joined Revan's side, either. Neither conflict was more spectacular than the other.

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For them it was all about killing the Jedi, which they did far more effectively than the Sith Empire under Revan. The Republic was already collapsing from its own issues, the Triumvirate didn't need to do anything about them. As Kreia said, it wasn't about the Republic since that government was a mere shell around the Jedi, which is what the Sith strive to destroy.

It's established in KOTOR II that only about a hundred Jedi were left by the end of the Jedi Civil War. There wasn't much of a Jedi Order for the Triumvirate to destroy.

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The Rule of Two? No. Exar and Ulic happened to be the earliest incarnation, but Revan had the idea of limiting the Sith Lord to two individuals in order to establish stability in the Sith ranks: one who has the knowledge and power, the other seeking it. Exar and Ulic just happened to fall into the patern.

Revan didn't have anything to do with the Rule of Two except when he said that a Master should only have one student. He says nothing about limiting the number of Sith or any other such thing.

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How about the idea that "All Sith are equal"? That was the idea behind the Brotherhood, and they weren't doing all that well. The New Sith Empire before them nearly conquered the Republic but the Brotherhood was actively failing.

I've read Path of Destruction, and I don't see much reason to believe that the "All Sith are equal" slogan is anything other than a slogan. The basic manner of advancing one's rank by eliminating those in one's way is still there. Kaan even preaches about "rule by the strong", which doesn't sound very compatible with everyone being equal to me.

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The Brotherhood's leader Kaan was also insane by several accounts.

This isn't relevant, because Kaan didn't go insane until a few days before his death.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

The idea of Revan never falling is completely incompatible with the previously established fundamental nature of the Force and how it works. I'm well aware of this ridiculous theory (which is built on nothing more than player character bias) and I do not subscribe to it.

The theory is that Revan wore whatever persona was necessary to protect the Galaxy, he was above mere lightside or darkside influence. To my knowledge, this is canon based on Revan's reasons for forming the Sith Empire. Also, there is no reason for this not to be true.

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Yeah, the fact that Revan is willing to kill quadrillions of people (civilians and military personnel on both sides of the war included) shows how compassionate he is. Give me a break. Revan was as much of a depraved murderer as any other Sith Lord. It's simply preposterous how people think that Revan was not evil despite his actions (which include numerous cases of wanton genocide) simply because he believed it was the lesser of two evils or whatever, as if there's any difference between his reasons and those of Darth Sidious. There is no fundamental difference between the two. The only thing that Darth Revan did that Sidious didn't was turn back to the light side.

Revan never turned back to the lightside because he never fell to the dark. Sidious overthrew the Republic because he wanted absolute power. Revan knew that the Jedi and Republic were not cut out to deal with the True Sith so he had to declare war (and he might of done the Galaxy so good by overthrowing the Republic, reportedly the most corrupt galactic power in Star Wars history). Also, the most heinous acts of the Sith Empire were executed by Darth Malak and Saul Karath. We haven't really seen the Sith Empire under Revan, so for all we know the Sith might have been more reserved than they were under Malak.

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Really, the only indication we get of Revan's supposed nobelness is the personal opinion of Kreia, who was not only a Sith Lord herself, but also Revan's teacher, meaning that the idea of manipulating and murdering countless innocent people could easily be justified from her viewpoint.

Perhaps you should actually consider Kreia's words more carefully. Most of what she says (all of it aside from the Force being an evil god) makes a whole lot of sense compared to the Jedi (who refuse to fight the Mandalorians but are perfectly happy to kill Sith who were once their own). Plus, Kreia is the one who looks out for the Exile and teaches him/her, while the Jedi Masters automatically declare the Exile another Nihilus and attempt to rob his/her connection to the Force.

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You forget the fact here that there were no great Jedi Masters who joined Revan's side, either. Neither conflict was more spectacular than the other.

The Jedi Masters weren't all that great. Kavar and Vrook were the only particularly powerful of them, and even Zez-Kia Ell admits they failed to teach their Padawan's effectively or take responsibility for their actions.

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It's established in KOTOR II that only about a hundred Jedi were left by the end of the Jedi Civil War. There wasn't much of a Jedi Order for the Triumvirate to destroy.

It's not so much the numbers that matter as the techniques employed. Nihilus killed an entire world by speaking, and Sion's assassins were able to efficiently kill off the others by feeding off of their pray. Also, I'm betting it was a good thing there were only a hundred Jedi or Nihilus might have gotten too powerful to stop.

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Revan didn't have anything to do with the Rule of Two except when he said that a Master should only have one student. He says nothing about limiting the number of Sith or any other such thing.

That's the Rule of Two! One Dark Lord as a master, the other as an apprentice. Bane contributed by eliminating the minions, but it was still basically the Rule of Two under Revan, just applied to an Empire instead of a secret order.

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I've read Path of Destruction, and I don't see much reason to believe that the "All Sith are equal" slogan is anything other than a slogan. The basic manner of advancing one's rank by eliminating those in one's way is still there. Kaan even preaches about "rule by the strong", which doesn't sound very compatible with everyone being equal to me.

I'll read up about this, because my info says that they abandoned traditional Sith hierarchy.

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This isn't relevant, because Kaan didn't go insane until a few days before his death.

Check out his profile on Wookiepedia. His outward charisma masked a man with a weak mind. If he's the de facto leader of the Brotherhood, then that does say a lot about them.

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

The theory is that Revan wore whatever persona was necessary to protect the Galaxy, he was above mere lightside or darkside influence. To my knowledge, this is canon based on Revan's reasons for forming the Sith Empire.

Revan's reasons for turning are irrelevant. He committed treason and numerous war crimes during the Mandalorian Wars, and they are not justified simply because he thought he was doing the right thing. Everyone believes that what they do is right if they do it willingly.

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Also, there is no reason for this not to be true.

As stated, this conception is incompatible with the established nature of the Force. Channeling the dark side ultimately corrupts the user. It is incompatible with the light side. The same applies to good and evil actions. It's impossible to be "above" good and evil. Unless one is not even going anywhere, then it's one path or the other.

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Revan never turned back to the lightside because he never fell to the dark. Sidious overthrew the Republic because he wanted absolute power. Revan knew that the Jedi and Republic were not cut out to deal with the True Sith so he had to declare war (and he might of done the Galaxy so good by overthrowing the Republic, reportedly the most corrupt galactic power in Star Wars history).

Sidious' justification was the same thing as Revan's. They both believed that they were doing the right thing by attempting to do away with the "corrupt" Republic and Jedi, and both believed that it was less evil than allowing the galaxy under them to eventually be devastated by the unknown threat which they saw (the True Sith and Yuuzhan Vong, respectively). Darth Sidious' and Darth Revan's reasons for following the dark side and attempting to topple the Republic and Jedi Order are effectively the same thing. Either both of them were above the light and dark sides and were doing the right thing in their attempts to protect the galaxy against an unknown threat, or both of them were power-hungry fanatical murderers who believed that the ends justify any and all means whatsoever. Take your pick; you can't have it both ways.

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Also, the most heinous acts of the Sith Empire were executed by Darth Malak and Saul Karath. We haven't really seen the Sith Empire under Revan, so for all we know the Sith might have been more reserved than they were under Malak.

Carth Onasi in KOTOR I considers Revan to be just as merciless and depraved as Malak is. This statement comes from an experienced war veteran, so it's accuracy is pretty clear.

Besides, considering all the massacres that Revan staged in the Mandalorian Wars just to convert a fistful Jedi to the dark side, why would anyone even need to mention the Jedi Civil War?

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Perhaps you should actually consider Kreia's words more carefully. Most of what she says (all of it aside from the Force being an evil god) makes a whole lot of sense compared to the Jedi (who refuse to fight the Mandalorians but are perfectly happy to kill Sith who were once their own). Plus, Kreia is the one who looks out for the Exile and teaches him/her, while the Jedi Masters automatically declare the Exile another Nihilus and attempt to rob his/her connection to the Force.

Your examples have nothing whatsoever to do with the validity or lack thereof of Kreia's statements.

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The Jedi Masters weren't all that great. Kavar and Vrook were the only particularly powerful of them,

The power levels of any of the Jedi Council members are never even hinted at in the games.

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and even Zez-Kia Ell admits they failed to teach their Padawan's effectively or take responsibility for their actions.

I am baffled by the idea that the Council was responsible for Revan leaving for the Mandalorian Wars, turning to the dark side, committing war crimes, utterly destroying at least one planet, corrupting countless Republic military personnel and Jedi, and declaring war on the Republic.

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That's the Rule of Two! One Dark Lord as a master, the other as an apprentice. Bane contributed by eliminating the minions, but it was still basically the Rule of Two under Revan, just applied to an Empire instead of a secret order.

By the same logic, Revan's "Rule of Two" was the one used by Exar Kun, only applied to his Empire. Just because Bane was inspired by the teachings of previous Sith doesn't mean that he didn't invent the Rule of Two.

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Check out his profile on Wookiepedia. His outward charisma masked a man with a weak mind. If he's the de facto leader of the Brotherhood, then that does say a lot about them.

You are correct, in that Kaan's weakness of the mind is what drove him insane, but that does not change the fact that it did not happen until days before his death at the earliest.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

Revan's reasons for turning are irrelevant. He committed treason and numerous war crimes during the Mandalorian Wars, and they are not justified simply because he thought he was doing the right thing. Everyone believes that what they do is right if they do it willingly.

The Jedi claim that they are the protectors of peace, freedom, and such. When the Mandalorians attack, they abandon the Cathar and countless other peoples to die on the Outer Rim and even their vaunted "Republic" to be destroyed. Revan and Malak, two future Sith, took up and fought the cause of the Jedi and protected the Republic. I'd like to ask what treason and war crimes they committed during the Mandalorian Wars, because they only separated from the Republic (if you call this treason or more accurately a declaration of independence) and committed most of their more heinous acts during the Jedi Civil Wars.

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As stated, this conception is incompatible with the established nature of the Force. Channeling the dark side ultimately corrupts the user. It is incompatible with the light side. The same applies to good and evil actions. It's impossible to be "above" good and evil. Unless one is not even going anywhere, then it's one path or the other.

1) According to some groups such as the Potentium, there is no Dark Side: only the Force and evil actions that are an abuse of the Force. I side with this view because who started the LS/DS belief system? The Jedi. Can the Jedi be trusted? That's very debatable. The Jedi have this tendency to only fight when it suits them, as well as this need to kidnap infants. The Force is the Force, independent of good and evil, but that doesn't mean good and evil exists. Hell, Arca Jeth used Force Lightning, he just simply applied it to droids rather than people. Is he evil? In addition, Luke also used Force Lightning...on people, though he toned it down.
2) Cade Skywalker has been reported to use "Dark Side" powers but not be afflicted with their "corruption". If Cade can do it, why not Revan who was also a very powerful Force user.

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Sidious' justification was the same thing as Revan's. They both believed that they were doing the right thing by attempting to do away with the "corrupt" Republic and Jedi, and both believed that it was less evil than allowing the galaxy under them to eventually be devastated by the unknown threat which they saw (the True Sith and Yuuzhan Vong, respectively).

Uh...no. We know for a fact that Sidious cared about nothing but power. Revan actually cared about saving the Galaxy from the True Sith. If he didn't he wouldn't have run off on his own to take them on after stopping Malak.

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Darth Sidious' and Darth Revan's reasons for following the dark side and attempting to topple the Republic and Jedi Order are effectively the same thing. Either both of them were above the light and dark sides and were doing the right thing in their attempts to protect the galaxy against an unknown threat, or both of them were power-hungry fanatical murderers who believed that the ends justify any and all means whatsoever. Take your pick; you can't have it both ways.

Not if we do have evidence that one was a megalomaniac.

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Carth Onasi in KOTOR I considers Revan to be just as merciless and depraved as Malak is. This statement comes from an experienced war veteran, so it's accuracy is pretty clear.

And you get on my case for citing Kreia, who is a far wiser and more experienced individual in general. Carth admits he's not the wisest guy and the planet, and every indication we have is that he is the kind of person who will believe anything his Republic superiors tell him.

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Besides, considering all the massacres that Revan staged in the Mandalorian Wars just to convert a fistful Jedi to the dark side, why would anyone even need to mention the Jedi Civil War?

Most of the massacres committed in the Mandalorian Wars were committed by the Mandalorians, Revan simply exploited them. And Revan's Sith were acquiring new recruits well into the Jedi Civil War, it just took awhile.

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Your examples have nothing whatsoever to do with the validity or lack thereof of Kreia's statements.

Consider that Kreia experience the worst elements of both the Jedi and the Sith and turned away from both. Not to mention her whole archetype character is the WISE OLD WOMAN.

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The power levels of any of the Jedi Council members are never even hinted at in the games.

Kavar is one of the most famous Jedi Weaponmasters in the Order. Vrook, from the gameplay experience, is a very powerful Master. The others are dubious.

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I am baffled by the idea that the Council was responsible for Revan leaving for the Mandalorian Wars, turning to the dark side, committing war crimes, utterly destroying at least one planet, corrupting countless Republic military personnel and Jedi, and declaring war on the Republic.

The Council taught the Jedi Padawans contradictory messages: that the Jedi are supposed to be the guardians of peace in the Galaxy, and yet they are supposed to let the Galaxy burn if the enemy is not Sith. The peek of this hypocrisy was the Jedi Covenant, which slaughtered many innocent Padawans to stop Sith that NEVER EVEN EXISTED YET.

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By the same logic, Revan's "Rule of Two" was the one used by Exar Kun, only applied to his Empire. Just because Bane was inspired by the teachings of previous Sith doesn't mean that he didn't invent the Rule of Two.

I'm going to abandon this section of the argument because we're just nitpicking at scraps of logic here.

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You are correct, in that Kaan's weakness of the mind is what drove him insane, but that does not change the fact that it did not happen until days before his death at the earliest.

From what I read his weakness of mind existed before his final days, it just manifested as pure insanity when his Brotherhood was close to defeat.

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

The Jedi claim that they are the protectors of peace, freedom, and such. When the Mandalorians attack, they abandon the Cathar and countless other peoples to die on the Outer Rim and even their vaunted "Republic" to be destroyed.

The Jedi wanted to stay out of the war for three reasons. First, they actually were assessing the Mandalorians before jumping into the war (if not, then they and the writers of the KOTOR series were pants-on-head retarded). Two, they believed (correctly) that the Mandalorians were not the real threat. Third, the Order was weakened in the aftermath of the Great Sith War, and they were afraid that joining another war so soon would devastate them (which is what happened when Revan and the Crusaders joined).

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Revan and Malak, two future Sith, took up and fought the cause of the Jedi and protected the Republic. I'd like to ask what treason and war crimes they committed during the Mandalorian Wars, because they only separated from the Republic (if you call this treason or more accurately a declaration of independence) and committed most of their more heinous acts during the Jedi Civil Wars.

Revan's war crimes were made clear in both KOTOR games, where it is stated that leaving certain planets defenseless against attacking Mandalorians in order to use the subsequent massacre as a morale booster was a basic strategy in his mind. Strange how it's fine for Revan to let the Mandalorians kill planets, but not for the Jedi Council (even if that isn't what they were doing). Also, the decimation of Malachor V was definitely a war crime (Bao-dur remarks that even the Mandalorians never did anything that horrendous).

My dictionary defines treason as "a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state." Revan committed treason when he took one third of the Republic fleet and used it to declare war on the Republic (and that was after he went AWOL, taking said fleet with him).

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1) According to some groups such as the Potentium, there is no Dark Side: only the Force and evil actions that are an abuse of the Force. I side with this view because who started the LS/DS belief system? The Jedi. Can the Jedi be trusted? That's very debatable.

The Essential Guide to the Force officially declared the Potentium theory to be a lie (not that the Essential Guide was needed for that, since Potentium is irreconcilable with the movies, which are the highest form of canon).

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The Jedi have this tendency to only fight when it suits them, as well as this need to kidnap infants.

I keep looking for instances where the Jedi Order encourages children being taken from their families without the family's consent, but I can't find any examples anywhere. Feel free to provide a list.

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The Force is the Force, independent of good and evil, but that doesn't mean good and evil exists. Hell, Arca Jeth used Force Lightning, he just simply applied it to droids rather than people. Is he evil? In addition, Luke also used Force Lightning...on people, though he toned it down.
2) Cade Skywalker has been reported to use "Dark Side" powers but not be afflicted with their "corruption". If Cade can do it, why not Revan who was also a very powerful Force user.

Exar Kun embodies the fact that the dark side corrupts its users, because he turned to the dark side specifically as a result of his attempts to control it.

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Uh...no. We know for a fact that Sidious cared about nothing but power. Revan actually cared about saving the Galaxy from the True Sith. If he didn't he wouldn't have run off on his own to take them on after stopping Malak.

It has been established since the novel Outbound Flight and other sources that the Empire's ultimate purpose was to defend against the Vong, and the Episode III Visual Dictionary confirmed before that that Sidious was convinced that he was doing the right thing.

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Not if we do have evidence that one was a megalomaniac.

"Megalomania: a symptom of mental illness marked by delusions of greatness, wealth, etc."

I see no evidence that Sidious had a mental illness. He did not have "delusions" of gaining power.

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And you get on my case for citing Kreia, who is a far wiser and more experienced individual in general. Carth admits he's not the wisest guy and the planet, and every indication we have is that he is the kind of person who will believe anything his Republic superiors tell him.

What you propose is that the Republic lies to its members about the deeds of its enemies (which you have not one iota of evidence of). And you're right, I do get on your case for citing Kreia, because she is malevolent, dishonest, completely immoral, and dedicated to justifying absolutely anything that Revan does. Carth's reliability in regards to bias can't possibly be as questionable as hers.

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Most of the massacres committed in the Mandalorian Wars were committed by the Mandalorians, Revan simply exploited them.

As I said, KOTOR reveals that Revan deliberately allowed planets to be decimated by the Mandalorians solely to serve as morale boosters for his troops. The Jedi Council had no direct means of effecting the protection of a planet at the moment, but Revan did, therefore he is more responsible for any deaths he deliberately allows than any that the Council "allowed" by never being there in the first place.

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Consider that Kreia experience the worst elements of both the Jedi and the Sith and turned away from both. Not to mention her whole archetype character is the WISE OLD WOMAN.

What does Kreia's character archetype have to do with her reliability?

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The Council taught the Jedi Padawans contradictory messages: that the Jedi are supposed to be the guardians of peace in the Galaxy, and yet they are supposed to let the Galaxy burn if the enemy is not Sith.

No, they're supposed to refrain from jumping into a situation before knowing all the facts about the situation.

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Kavar is one of the most famous Jedi Weaponmasters in the Order. Vrook, from the gameplay experience, is a very powerful Master. The others are dubious.

Granted, but combat prowess doesn't make a Jedi great or ungreat.

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The peek of this hypocrisy was the Jedi Covenant, which slaughtered many innocent Padawans to stop Sith that NEVER EVEN EXISTED YET.

The existence of the Jedi Covenant was unknown even to the Jedi High Council, so its actions should not be taken to reflect on the character of anyone other than its members.

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I'm going to abandon this section of the argument because we're just nitpicking at scraps of logic here.

Fair enough.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

Kreia is dangerous just for what is being said now. You take Kreia's words as if they are truth. Her words are deceiving, a mix of half-truths. Kreia always has an objective, plotting. She will tell you what needs to be heard about Revan in order for the person to do what she wants. For example she feels that Revan never feel to the dark side. In her eyes she believes this but its not true. Revan's weakness was his wanting to help those world that were falling to the Mandalorians. Revan joined the war and in doing so he saw what he would have to become in order to win against the Mandalorians. This is when he fell. We saw this in The Dark Knight, Batman saw what he would have to become to defeat joker and he could not become a killer, so Batman walked away. Revan fell when he gave into the idea that the end justify the means no matter the cost even if it meant to let his own men die. This was when he stop being a Jedi. Revan became consumed with this war, this battle with Mandalore, this chess game of combat. Revan and people of power have a weakness to get consumed with such games that Revan forgot why he was fighting this war. Revan justified everything by using the pain and horror which the Mandalorians have cased to bring more and more Jedi into his cause.

Carth was right that Revan had cause war crimes but during a war when you feel if we don't cross those line it will cause the destruction of everything, it seems justified till after, when you look upon the ashes of what you have brought to the galaxy. Carth spoke from his heart and was being humble in his thoughts. Kreia can never be humble in her thoughts, she has fallen where few have. She is twisted to the point that she hated the force since it had power over all existence and destiny. To Kreia everything is a tool, even the force...but the force had its own vision, its own being in so she hated the Force for it could not be owned, only embraced.

The question is when Revan was in sense reborn in kotor1, did the Revan who was a Jedi and wishes to help others but kept to the code of the Order or was it the Revan who was born from the combat and the mandalorian wars, who saw that he would sacrifice anyone for winning, even those he loved.

Maybe this is why Revan went alone to the outer rim and beyond since he was afraid he would have to make choice like he did in the War and be didn't want those around him to suffer. So he want alone.....

As for the Sith'ari prophecy....most of these like the prophecy of the one were meant to keep both Jedi and Sith watchful and diligent so they can survive.

The meaning that the Force is Balanced is when the Sith and the Jedi are both basically wiped off so that a new birth can occur. At the end of episode 6, Sith were destroyed (the order) and the Jedi in a sense were also gone. What was left was Luke and the Force to regrow the Jedi and in time the Sith would return since both must exist but now both Sith and Jedi can have a new beginning. The Force does not play sides it is there to keep balance and doing so it will allow each side its time in the light because the Force knows that neither will have the light forever. The Ying and Yang of the Galaxy= the Force.

The Jedi wanted to stay out of the war for three reasons. First, they actually were assessing the Mandalorians before jumping into the war (if not, then they and the writers of the KOTOR series were pants-on-head retarded). Two, they believed (correctly) that the Mandalorians were not the real threat. Third, the Order was weakened in the aftermath of the Great Sith War, and they were afraid that joining another war so soon would devastate them (which is what happened when Revan and the Crusaders joined).

First, the writers aren't retarded, they just accurately portrayed the Jedi. As noted on Wookiepedia (I know, Wookiepedia isn't the end all source of everything but bear with me), the Jedi failed to stop Sidious/figure out his plot earlier because they are always looking to the future rather than focusing on the present. Second, if Revan and Malak were the threat they foresaw, then tell them! Revan and Malak weren't completely unreasonable!
Third, the Jedi Order wasn't that well off or the Jedi that joined Revan and Malak wouldn't be sufficiently numerous to win the war.

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Revan's war crimes were made clear in both KOTOR games, where it is stated that leaving certain planets defenseless against attacking Mandalorians in order to use the subsequent massacre as a morale booster was a basic strategy in his mind.

Remember the second question posed by the Rakata Computer on Kashyyyk? The Allied powers in WWII did the same thing, faced the same scenario that Revan did and acted in the same manner.

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Strange how it's fine for Revan to let the Mandalorians kill planets, but not for the Jedi Council (even if that isn't what they were doing). Also, the decimation of Malachor V was definitely a war crime (Bao-dur remarks that even the Mandalorians never did anything that horrendous).

One planet in exchange for a hundred others? In war I'd say that's a fair trade when dealing with a species that idolizes war and is unceasing in its desire to conquer everything.

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My dictionary defines treason as "a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state." Revan committed treason when he took one third of the Republic fleet and used it to declare war on the Republic (and that was after he went AWOL, taking said fleet with him).

This is enough people to qualify as secession.

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The Essential Guide to the Force officially declared the Potentium theory to be a lie (not that the Essential Guide was needed for that, since Potentium is irreconcilable with the movies, which are the highest form of canon).

I'd have to see whose point of view the Essential Guide supports, considering that if it's Jedi-supportive it would be biased. As for the movies, they don't outright outlaw the Potentium.

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I keep looking for instances where the Jedi Order encourages children being taken from their families without the family's consent, but I can't find any examples anywhere. Feel free to provide a list.

Their members consist of individuals who were taken from their families at infancy, be it willingly or coerced. The Sith recruit from adults to my knowledge, a more rational process.

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Exar Kun embodies the fact that the dark side corrupts its users, because he turned to the dark side specifically as a result of his attempts to control it.

Exar Kun might have gone evil, but that's no proof of the Dark Side. And you ignored the fact that Cade is living evidence someone can be above the influence of the "Dark Side."

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It has been established since the novel Outbound Flight and other sources that the Empire's ultimate purpose was to defend against the Vong, and the Episode III Visual Dictionary confirmed before that that Sidious was convinced that he was doing the right thing.

Since you are making such a good case for Sidious being not such a bad guy, I'll just sit back and let you advocate him and accept both him and Revan as secretly good people making sacrifices.

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"Megalomania: a symptom of mental illness marked by delusions of greatness, wealth, etc."

Sorry, I should have found a better word.

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I see no evidence that Sidious had a mental illness. He did not have "delusions" of gaining power

Again, wrong word.

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What you propose is that the Republic lies to its members about the deeds of its enemies (which you have not one iota of evidence of). And you're right, I do get on your case for citing Kreia, because she is malevolent, dishonest, completely immoral, and dedicated to justifying absolutely anything that Revan does. Carth's reliability in regards to bias can't possibly be as questionable as hers.

If you payed attention to TSL, Kreia was not malevolent, dishonest, or immoral in the slightest. She was a realist (see her speeches on charity), honest save for he inner most motive (destroying the Force, which could be well justified depending on how you look at it), and only manipulated those who deserved to manipulated (the Jedi Council (a bunch of hypocrites) in order to show the Exile said hypocrisy; Atton (a murderer) in order to assist and protect the Exile; Tobin (a traitor to his country) in order to bring down Nihilus; Mical (a good man but hopelessly naive) in order to protect her interests; and Hanharr (a monster) in order to protect her interests.

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As I said, KOTOR reveals that Revan deliberately allowed planets to be decimated by the Mandalorians solely to serve as morale boosters for his troops. The Jedi Council had no direct means of effecting the protection of a planet at the moment, but Revan did, therefore he is more responsible for any deaths he deliberately allows than any that the Council "allowed" by never being there in the first place.

Cathar was wiped out after the Jedi learned of the Mandalorian campaign beginning.

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What does Kreia's character archetype have to do with her reliability?

See earlier statements.

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No, they're supposed to refrain from jumping into a situation before knowing all the facts about the situation.

If they knew all these facts, they should have shared their information and make their case rather than just say "Sorry no protecting the Republic today boys and girls!"

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Granted, but combat prowess doesn't make a Jedi great or ungreat.

Ironically that was my original point.

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The existence of the Jedi Covenant was unknown even to the Jedi High Council, so its actions should not be taken to reflect on the character of anyone other than its members.

The Jedi Covenant consisted of Jedi Masters. It's not the end all example of Jedi failure to teach correctly but it is an example nonetheless.

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

Kreia is dangerous just for what is being said now. You take Kreia's words as if they are truth. Her words are deceiving, a mix of half-truths. Kreia always has an objective, plotting. She will tell you what needs to be heard about Revan in order for the person to do what she wants.

If you say this you did not pay attention to her or how events unfolded. Everyone has an objective, everyone plots, manipulates, deceives. Did Kreia wipe Revan's memory without consent and proceed to use him to destroy the Sith? Did Kreia use Anakin Skywalker to betray the Supreme Chancellor?

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For example she feels that Revan never feel to the dark side. In her eyes she believes this but its not true. Revan's weakness was his wanting to help those world that were falling to the Mandalorians. Revan joined the war and in doing so he saw what he would have to become in order to win against the Mandalorians.

He saw the necessary persona he had to wear. His only mistake was not confiding in Malak.

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This is when he fell.

There is a difference between a fall and a sacrifice.

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We saw this in The Dark Knight, Batman saw what he would have to become to defeat joker and he could not become a killer, so Batman walked away.

Uh, he walked away because he was being hunted down by the police in their ignorance so a city could have its hero.

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Revan fell when he gave into the idea that the end justify the means no matter the cost even if it meant to let his own men die.

That's war for you. I'm waiting for th list of atrocities the True Sith commit in the Cold War.

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This was when he stop being a Jedi.

You stop being a Jedi when you realize that as Atton said, they lie, cheat, and manipulate while pretending to be the good guys.

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Revan became consumed with this war, this battle with Mandalore, this chess game of combat. Revan and people of power have a weakness to get consumed with such games that Revan forgot why he was fighting this war. Revan justified everything by using the pain and horror which the Mandalorians have cased to bring more and more Jedi into his cause.

The alternative? Sit back and let the Mandalorians conquer the Galaxy, then the True Sith do the same thing themselves. The ends do justify the means here.

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Carth was right that Revan had cause war crimes but during a war when you feel if we don't cross those line it will cause the destruction of everything, it seems justified till after, when you look upon the ashes of what you have brought to the galaxy. Carth spoke from his heart and was being humble in his thoughts. Kreia can never be humble in her thoughts, she has fallen where few have. She is twisted to the point that she hated the force since it had power over all existence and destiny. To Kreia everything is a tool, even the force...but the force had its own vision, its own being in so she hated the Force for it could not be owned, only embraced.

Kreia had experienced the evil of both Jedi and Sith alike, and in all likelihood she came out a wiser person. Partial evidence of this is when she recognizes her path in Atris' actions and attitude. She's not the nicest, shiniest person in the world, but certainly more experienced with betrayal and true evil than Carth if not at least equal. And Carth is not all that great, he has his emotional demons that need to be conquered and only conquers them through (ironically) Revan's help. Kreia has experienced betrayal from both Jedi and Sith, and she seeks to expose who they are while making amends for her failure in both Sion and Nihilus by using individuals such as Tobin to destroy them before they can eliminate life. Her desire to destroy the Force is based on her experience with it, and can be considered a benevolent guesture towards a Galaxy that's suffered from its abuse by Jedi and Sith (though it is debatable if killing the Force would leave life intact or destroy it).

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The question is when Revan was in sense reborn in kotor1, did the Revan who was a Jedi and wishes to help others but kept to the code of the Order or was it the Revan who was born from the combat and the mandalorian wars, who saw that he would sacrifice anyone for winning, even those he loved.

Maybe this is why Revan went alone to the outer rim and beyond since he was afraid he would have to make choice like he did in the War and be didn't want those around him to suffer. So he want alone.....

He left to take on the True Sith. He had exhausted the Galaxy's resources trying to build a Sith Empire that could hold its own against them, so its likely he went off to stir the other species in the Unknown Regions against this threat. Either that or a head-on suicide attack to buy the Galaxy some time to recover.

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As for the Sith'ari prophecy....most of these like the prophecy of the one were meant to keep both Jedi and Sith watchful and diligent so they can survive.

The Sith'ari prophecy, again, is a story meant to give the Sith something to aspire towards.

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The meaning that the Force is Balanced is when the Sith and the Jedi are both basically wiped off so that a new birth can occur. At the end of episode 6, Sith were destroyed (the order) and the Jedi in a sense were also gone. What was left was Luke and the Force to regrow the Jedi and in time the Sith would return since both must exist but now both Sith and Jedi can have a new beginning. The Force does not play sides it is there to keep balance and doing so it will allow each side its time in the light because the Force knows that neither will have the light forever. The Ying and Yang of the Galaxy= the Force.

No offense, but I don't know what the relevence of this is towards this discussion. Though I do agree with you. Both groups were reinvented for the better (the New Jedi were more open to benevolent emotions and the One Sith were less backstabbing than their predicessors).

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First, the writers aren't retarded, they just accurately portrayed the Jedi.

If the Jedi were lying about their reasons, then the writers would have to have been retarded, because what you suggest is that the writers decided that it would make sense for the leaders of a multi-millennium-old Order, each of whom have decades of experience in numerous fields, are sitting on their arses for no fricking reason.

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As noted on Wookiepedia (I know, Wookiepedia isn't the end all source of everything but bear with me)

There is no need to throw in a "bear with me" disclaimer when citing Wookieepedia, because that place should not be assumed to have inaccurate information unless one can produce evidence that it is inaccurate.

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the Jedi failed to stop Sidious/figure out his plot earlier because they are always looking to the future rather than focusing on the present.

Sidious would have been killed by Mace Windu if he hadn't been saved by Anakin. The Revenge of the Sith novelization reveals in Mace's thoughts as Sidious kills him that he (Mace) had been so focused on the weakness of the Sith that he had missed his own weakness (which IIRC was Anakin himself). Therefore, from a tactical standpoint, your statement is correct. If Mace had anticipated Anakin's decision, he would have succeeded.

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Second, if Revan and Malak were the threat they foresaw, then tell them! Revan and Malak weren't completely unreasonable!

The fact that they refused to believe that the Jedi Council may have known better than them demonstrates that Revan and Malak were not entirely reasonable in regards to resolving their conflict of interest with the Council.

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Remember the second question posed by the Rakata Computer on Kashyyyk? The Allied powers in WWII did the same thing, faced the same scenario that Revan did and acted in the same manner.

I confess that I've forgotten what exactly the second question is, so I'd appreciate it if you can shed some light on this, so I will then be able to ascertain my own opinion.

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One planet in exchange for a hundred others? In war I'd say that's a fair trade when dealing with a species that idolizes war and is unceasing in its desire to conquer everything.

What you're saying here is that genocide is acceptable when you're fighting a war against an enemy which commits genocide, even if the genocide you are committing is not even aimed at the enemy.

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This is enough people to qualify as secession.

Secession and treason are not mutually exclusive. Besides, both of those words are just words. They don't change the morality of the situation.

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As for the movies, they don't outright outlaw the Potentium.

The demonstration of Force-users being corrupted by evil actions does outlaw the Potentium.

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Their members consist of individuals who were taken from their families at infancy, be it willingly or coerced.

If you're going to tell me that the Jedi steal infants, then freaking prove it. You have not provided a single example.

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Exar Kun might have gone evil, but that's no proof of the Dark Side.

The entire point of the story was that Exar Kun fell because he used the dark side. He was corrupted when he used the dark side. There was no other direct reason for his turn.

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And you ignored the fact that Cade is living evidence someone can be above the influence of the "Dark Side."

Cade actually gave into the dark side during his imprisonment by Darth Krayt and made use of a number of rather insidious Force powers (such as reopening previously healed wounds on an opponent's body), so he was not above the influence of the dark side.

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Since you are making such a good case for Sidious being not such a bad guy, I'll just sit back and let you advocate him and accept both him and Revan as secretly good people making sacrifices.

I believe you misunderstand. The point I'm trying to make by bringing Sidious into the discussion is not that he is a savior; Rather, that he and Revan are not that different. I've already stated that their motivations are the same thing.

The truth is that neither of them had the protection of the galaxy at the forefront of their motivations. If anything, that was simply how they justified their innumerable crimes to themselves. Both of them wanted the galaxy to survive - but only if it was a galaxy under their rule. If what Revan and Sidious truly cared about was saving the Republic's people, then why did they both try to destroy it? Why did Revan attack and nearly destroy it after forming the Sith Empire, instead of telling the Republic about the True Sith? Why did Sidious replace the Republic with the Galactic Empire?

The answer to both questions, of course, is that in their minds, there were only two possible outcomes if they had a say in it: their galaxy, or nobody's galaxy.

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If you payed attention to TSL, Kreia was not malevolent, dishonest, or immoral in the slightest. She was a realist (see her speeches on charity), honest save for he inner most motive (destroying the Force, which could be well justified depending on how you look at it), and only manipulated those who deserved to manipulated (the Jedi Council (a bunch of hypocrites) in order to show the Exile said hypocrisy; Atton (a murderer) in order to assist and protect the Exile; Tobin (a traitor to his country) in order to bring down Nihilus; Mical (a good man but hopelessly naive) in order to protect her interests; and Hanharr (a monster) in order to protect her interests.

Kreia lies to the Exile at the very beginning, telling her that the Jedi Council is responsible for her loss of connection to the Force, setting the events of the entire game in motion. She lies to Tobin about the Jedi being at Telos, which causes Nihilus to go there, endangering Citadel Station's population (and it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume plenty of civilians were killed at that battle). After the confrontation with the Jedi Masters in the Enclave, Kreia lies to the Handmaiden and tells her that the Exile is dead in order to meet with Atris again. There are numerous other instances of Kreia lying and twisting the facts throughout the game. She is dishonest.

Kreia torments Hanharr by saving him when the only humane thing to do would be let the crazy wookiee die (he even wanted to die, as well). She toys with and even goes far as to openly gloat at Atton several times after using the Force to rip personal information from him, which she then proceeds to use to blackmail him into the Exile's service. She clearly hates Atton and probably would have killed or abandoned him somewhere if he wasn't Force-sensitive and capable of flying the ship (she also criticizes him for being a murderer, as if she hasn't killed plenty of people in her life). One of the most notable incidents is one which even suggests that she is racist: When Bao-dur confronts Kreia about the effect she is having on the Exile, she smacks him in the face with an artificial guilt grenade and tells him that "nothing human" could have built the Mass Shadow Generator. Kreia says this in order to break "the alien's" spirit so that he will not speak out against her again. She is malevolent.

Then there's Mandalore, who Kreia blackmails into staying with the Exile. She also screws around with Disciple's mind in order to keep her cover from being blown. As mentioned above, she also saves Tobin before sending him off to what is almost certain death after he serves his purpose. She tells the Exile straight from the beginning that she will have to kill Visas at some point and never credits the possibility that there is another way to stop Darth Nihilus. Kreia is not above outright murder either, as demonstrated when she kills the three Jedi Masters in the Enclave (this is also an example of bigotry. She can't stand the hypocrisy that the Jedi Masters supposedly displayed when they exiled her "simply for not agreeing with them" , but is more than willing to kill all of them when they disagree with her). She also states that if it meant that the Exile lived, she would have killed everyone in the galaxy. Kreia says in the same conversation that she had been using the Exile throughout the entire game; the Exile was Kreia's unwitting sword and dagger against all of her enemies. Kreia is not above the use of manipulation, deceit, psychological torture, or murder to further her goals.

Considering everything referenced in the above three paragraphs, how can it possibly be incorrect to state that Kreia is immoral?

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Cathar was wiped out after the Jedi learned of the Mandalorian campaign beginning.

That doesn't change the fact that the Jedi weren't there in the first place. There's a difference between refraining from making preparations for defense, and deliberately refraining from doing so.

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If they knew all these facts, they should have shared their information and make their case rather than just say "Sorry no protecting the Republic today boys and girls!"

First, it's not their fault Revan and Malak weren't satisfied with the given explanations. Second, why didn't Revan tell anyone about the True Sith?

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The Jedi Covenant consisted of Jedi Masters. It's not the end all example of Jedi failure to teach correctly but it is an example nonetheless.

It is an example of those five Jedi in the Covenant, and no more than that (especially considering the fact that they were not ordinary Jedi by any stretch).

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Did Kreia wipe Revan's memory without consent and proceed to use him to destroy the Sith? Did Kreia use Anakin Skywalker to betray the Supreme Chancellor?

First off, the Council didn't wipe Revan's mind. His mind was already damaged. Second, Kreia has done much worse things with people's minds (see above).

Revan was solely responsible for the beginning of the Jedi Civil War, so one could argue that it was poetic justice for him to be the one that ends it. That aside, it was the only way the Republic could find the Star Forge and end the war, so the Council would be idiots not to do what they did. What were they supposed to do, anyway? It was either that, or let Malak finish the job that Revan started. Hell, the Council did the galaxy and Revan a favor by reprogramming him.

"Using" Anakin to "betray" Palpatine was justified, because Palpatine, as the Sith Lord named Darth Sidious who was also the leader of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, was guilty of high treason (among many other things). Mace Windu's decision to kill him after the duel in the Chancellor's office was justified, because Palpatine had just resisted arrest and killed three out of the four Jedi (who are officers of the law) who were sent to arrest him.

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There is a difference between a fall and a sacrifice.

The difference is either Revan fell or chose to fall/turn because he thought it was the right thing to do.

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You stop being a Jedi when you realize that as Atton said, they lie, cheat, and manipulate while pretending to be the good guys.

Please provide an example or two of Jedi lying or manipulating without justification (or indeed, a single example of them doing any of those things in a situation outside of KOTOR 1 or 2, regardless of justification or lack thereof).

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alternative? Sit back and let the Mandalorians conquer the Galaxy, then the True Sith do the same thing themselves. The ends do justify the means here.

The Mandalorian fleet was outnumbered by that of the Republic (they had neither the numbers nor any political expertise that would allow them to rule the galaxy even if they could conquer it), and it's pretty clear that the only real reason they were losing the war is because the Republic leadership at the time was a bunch of idiotic schmucks, not anything to do with the absence of Jedi. The Mandalorians pillaged the Outer rim for ten years before the Republic actually decided to take action. The destruction caused by the Mandalorians went unchecked because the Republic (you know, the galactic government with an entire Navy and Army to protect itself with) acted too late, not the Jedi. It isn't the Jedi Order's responsibility to take command of the Republic Navy every time somebody vandalizes the Supreme Chancellor's building. As Mace Windu said, the Jedi are not soldiers.

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Kreia had experienced the evil of both Jedi and Sith alike, and in all likelihood she came out a wiser person. Partial evidence of this is when she recognizes her path in Atris' actions and attitude. She's not the nicest, shiniest person in the world, but certainly more experienced with betrayal and true evil than Carth if not at least equal. And Carth is not all that great, he has his emotional demons that need to be conquered and only conquers them through (ironically) Revan's help. Kreia has experienced betrayal from both Jedi and Sith, and she seeks to expose who they are while making amends for her failure in both Sion and Nihilus by using individuals such as Tobin to destroy them before they can eliminate life. Her desire to destroy the Force is based on her experience with it, and can be considered a benevolent guesture towards a Galaxy that's suffered from its abuse by Jedi and Sith (though it is debatable if killing the Force would leave life intact or destroy it).

This entire argument is a red herring, because how wise Kreia is or what her motivations are or whether Carth Onasi has emotional demons or whether Whatshisname knows what true evil has has nothing to do with how accurate his recounts of the Jedi Civil War are.

Also, how is Kreia's exile from the Jedi Order a "betrayal"?

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

If you say this you did not pay attention to her or how events unfolded. Everyone has an objective, everyone plots, manipulates, deceives. Did Kreia wipe Revan's memory without consent and proceed to use him to destroy the Sith? Did Kreia use Anakin Skywalker to betray the Supreme Chancellor?

I was talking about Kreia not about the Jedi wiping away Revan's memory. Why are you bring Anakin into this?? Kreia and Anikin,...are you saying they were lovers,lol....? apples and oranges

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He saw the necessary persona he had to wear. His only mistake was not confiding in Malak.

Revan changed...due to the War...war will do that. Revan did discover this and fell. Darth Revan knows that Sith do not share such information to their apprentice, Revan must hold onto some secrets. Malak would try to gain this power/ knowledge on Malachor V if he was told about it. Revan knew this. Malak was impulsive.

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There is a difference between a fall and a sacrifice.

You assume it was a sacrifice.
Why didn't Revan tell what he remembered?
Why go alone?
If he became the dark lord as a sacrifice, he still would fall. Falling in a mental state in the mind.

Stage 1: Temptation
Revan was tempted to jump into the Mandalorian conflict, he wanted to rush into combat the help others. In kotor they said he was head strong and craved knowledge.

Stage 2: Imperilment
Revan saw that if the Jedi did not act the Republic would be destroyed. He would allow his own troops die just so he could gain an upper advantage, if he did not do this the Mandalorians would become stronger and stronger and the Republic would be destroyed. He had to act....or destruction. Fear...leads to the dark side.

Stage 3: Submission
This is when you don't need to justify your actions. You see this as the true way. You submit to the dark side but to you its what needs to be done. You don't need to argue that turning on your own galaxy, the Republic you went out to fight for is now your enemy. Revan did not tell the Senate or the Chancellor about some unknown threat, let alone the Jedi. No Revan acted and attacked the Republic. He lived in his own world where he knows whats best and there is no discussion, no debate.

Stage 4: Atonement/Redemption
This is the story of kotor1 light side.

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You stop being a Jedi when you realize that as Atton said, they lie, cheat, and manipulate while pretending to be the good guys.

Atton's not a very good witness, since he hung around with the Jedi who followed Revan. Atton even hunted Jedi, I would not put him as my witness during a trial by jury. It would not stand up in court do to his past actions. Atton's mind is majorly messed up and even Atton knows that.

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The alternative? Sit back and let the Mandalorians conquer the Galaxy, then the True Sith do the same thing themselves. The ends do justify the means here.

What if the Mandalorians mad it to the core and due to their lack of numbers came to the point where they stretch their armies to thin and end up losing the war, what if the Jedi never got involved and the Republic won. What if the Mandalorians were allowed to go further in the war and the True sith gave away their position, and at that moment the Jedi could of destroyed the True Sith instead of 300 years later being destroyed by them. 300 years is along time, imagine how weak that may have been at that time.

But that's all hind site, just as the idea that the Republic would of fell to the Mandalorians, all hind site. No one will ever know.

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Kreia has experienced betrayal from both Jedi and Sith, and she seeks to expose who they are while making amends for her failure in both Sion and Nihilus by using individuals such as Tobin to destroy them before they can eliminate life.

Kreia was not making amends for her failures. She wanted to make the Exile the greatest student she ever taught, like she said..she would kill the galaxy to preserve you (Exile).

She got revenge on those who did her wrong; the Jedi order, Nihilus, and Sion. She wanted to killed the Force. She was a genius short of madness, there is not much of a margin between the two.

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He left to take on the True Sith. He had exhausted the Galaxy's resources trying to build a Sith Empire that could hold its own against them, so its likely he went off to stir the other species in the Unknown Regions against this threat. Either that or a head-on suicide attack to buy the Galaxy some time to recover.

Revan would not go on a head-on suicide attack, it goes against the psychological profile of Revan. Revan is a thinker. I won't go into my theory since it will be part of my Mod.

FUN?!?!?! Only kidding, but I have to admit two on one is not fair in the slightest.

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I was talking about Kreia not about the Jedi wiping away Revan's memory. Why are you bring Anakin into this?? Kreia and Anikin,...are you saying they were lovers,lol....? apples and oranges

What I meant was that I was giving examples of the Jedi being manipulative. And get your mind out of the gutter!

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Revan changed...due to the War...war will do that. Revan did discover this and fell.

Again, the whole thing of Revan fell. If anything this is Jedi propaganda.

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Darth Revan knows that Sith do not share such information to their apprentice, Revan must hold onto some secrets. Malak would try to gain this power/ knowledge on Malachor V if he was told about it. Revan knew this. Malak was impulsive.

Maybe, then again this does support a theory I'm going to add in this post.

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You assume it was a sacrifice.
Why didn't Revan tell what he remembered?
Why go alone?
If he became the dark lord as a sacrifice, he still would fall. Falling in a mental state in the mind.

Rather wearing the appearance and outward portrayal of a Dark Lord but holding onto his own personality in his mind.

Stage 1: Temptation
Revan was tempted to jump into the Mandalorian conflict, he wanted to rush into combat the help others. In kotor they said he was head strong and craved knowledge.

Stage 2: Imperilment
Revan saw that if the Jedi did not act the Republic would be destroyed. He would allow his own troops die just so he could gain an upper advantage, if he did not do this the Mandalorians would become stronger and stronger and the Republic would be destroyed. He had to act....or destruction. Fear...leads to the dark side.

Stage 3: Submission
This is when you don't need to justify your actions. You see this as the true way. You submit to the dark side but to you its what needs to be done. You don't need to argue that turning on your own galaxy, the Republic you went out to fight for is now your enemy. Revan did not tell the Senate or the Chancellor about some unknown threat, let alone the Jedi. No Revan acted and attacked the Republic. He lived in his own world where he knows whats best and there is no discussion, no debate.

Stage 4: Atonement/Redemption
This is the story of kotor1 light side.

Rather than address this, I have my own Four Stages of the Light Side.

Stage 1: Indoctrination
The candidate, preferably at a young age when most easily influenced, is given the whole introduction to Jedi-designed morality system of the Galaxy. The Jedi are automatically positioned as the good guys, and the Dark Jedi and Sith the bad guys. The candidate is told that his own passions, essentially his own independent personality, are his enemy and through some 'Code' he can be 'saved'.

Stage 2: Integration
The candidate, now an initiate, is given his 'place' within the hierarchy of the Jedi social order. His indoctrination is continued in detail and when he reaches an age less easily influenced by his class teachers, he is assigned to a private indoctrinator...his Master.

Stage 3: Self-Conquest
The initiate, in order to remove more of his original identity and make him an extension of the Jedi Order, is given some sort of personal trial that will give him the impression of having conquered some great personal demon. It is important that the initiate believe that the demon is an internal aspect, and that only by giving into an arbitrary concept of the light can he be free of "his" problems. Having another member assist the initiate (in the case of Juhani and Revan especially) helps instill that vital sense of community.

Step 4: Solidification
The initiate is now given a greater rank (Padawan) and given duties within the Order. He might eventually ascend to Master if he believes enough in what his leaders tell him.

As you can see, I can play the same game that the Jedi play.

To any firm Jedi lovers: If you are offended by this, I am sorry that is not my intent. I seek only to challenge the conventional notion that the Jedi are the "good guys".

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Atton's not a very good witness, since he hung around with the Jedi who followed Revan. Atton even hunted Jedi, I would not put him as my witness during a trial by jury. It would not stand up in court do to his past actions. Atton's mind is majorly messed up and even Atton knows that.

In this case, and as with Kreia, I am asking you not to challenge the character but challenge the validity of the statements themselves.

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What if the Mandalorians mad it to the core and due to their lack of numbers came to the point where they stretch their armies to thin and end up losing the war, what if the Jedi never got involved and the Republic won. What if the Mandalorians were allowed to go further in the war and the True sith gave away their position, and at that moment the Jedi could of destroyed the True Sith instead of 300 years later being destroyed by them. 300 years is along time, imagine how weak that may have been at that time.

I doubt this scenario is possible. Remember that the Mandalorians had a leader only slightly less skilled in tactics than Revan: Mandalore the Ultimate.

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Kreia was not making amends for her failures. She wanted to make the Exile the greatest student she ever taught, like she said..she would kill the galaxy to preserve you (Exile).

Is this so malevolent? She certainly did a better job of teaching the Exile the ways of the Force than the Jedi teacher their students.

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She got revenge on those who did her wrong; the Jedi order, Nihilus, and Sion.

Revenge on the Jedi? No problem here. Revenge on Nihilus and Sion? Perhaps, but she also sought to protect the Galaxy from her two greatest mistakes (she admits such to the Exile).

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She wanted to killed the Force. She was a genius short of madness, there is not much of a margin between the two.

Mad? Perhaps. But there is good reasoning behind destroying what could very well be a malevolent entity.

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Revan would not go on a head-on suicide attack, it goes against the psychological profile of Revan. Revan is a thinker. I won't go into my theory since it will be part of my Mod.

I just threw that in...though I should not have, obviously.

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ooo...my fingers are burning from all this typing, lol

Logan

Your fingers? I have to respond to both of you!

Now...how many credits can I offer you to join my side of the argument?

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

If the Jedi were lying about their reasons, then the writers would have to have been retarded, because what you suggest is that the writers decided that it would make sense for the leaders of a multi-millennium-old Order, each of whom have decades of experience in numerous fields, are sitting on their arses for no fricking reason.

So they are great because their organization is really old and so are they? Not good enough. At least Kreia experienced both organizations in her time.

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There is no need to throw in a "bear with me" disclaimer when citing Wookieepedia, because that place should not be assumed to have inaccurate information unless one can produce evidence that it is inaccurate.

Sorry, but some people claim that Wookiepedia is unreliable. I disagree, but I put that in case you were one of them.

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Sidious would have been killed by Mace Windu if he hadn't been saved by Anakin. The Revenge of the Sith novelization reveals in Mace's thoughts as Sidious kills him that he (Mace) had been so focused on the weakness of the Sith that he had missed his own weakness (which IIRC was Anakin himself). Therefore, from a tactical standpoint, your statement is correct. If Mace had anticipated Anakin's decision, he would have succeeded.

I wasn't referring to that specific scenario, but I like where you took my logic.

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The fact that they refused to believe that the Jedi Council may have known better than them demonstrates that Revan and Malak were not entirely reasonable in regards to resolving their conflict of interest with the Council.

I think it was entirely reasonable. The Council failed to act while worlds burned. Rather than supplant the Jedi Masters, they simply said, "Okay, you won't save the Galaxy...any of the rest of you want to help stop those genocidal morons?"

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I confess that I've forgotten what exactly the second question is, so I'd appreciate it if you can shed some light on this, so I will then be able to ascertain my own opinion.

The second question: (paraphrased)

"Your code experts intercepted and decrypted an enemy broadcast that reveals that the enemy's base will be vulnerable in 10 days. It also reveals that the enemy will attack one of your civilian worlds in 5 days. Knowing that if you reinforce that world you will alert the enemy to your discovery, what do you do?"

If you went with Revan's path, you do nothing about the civilian world. This actually occurred in WWII when Britain intercepted a Nazi broadcast in code, and had to let a small city get bombed in order to keep that vital advantage. They chose Revan's path.

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What you're saying here is that genocide is acceptable when you're fighting a war against an enemy which commits genocide, even if the genocide you are committing is not even aimed at the enemy.

I'm saying tough decisions are made in war, and you have to adapt to situations sometime. But there is a difference between the guy who goes out to commit genocide, and the guy who has to let genocide happen to stop they guy who is doing the genocide.

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Secession and treason are not mutually exclusive. Besides, both of those words are just words. They don't change the morality of the situation.

Then let's execute ourselves and hand over America to the British!

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The demonstration of Force-users being corrupted by evil actions does outlaw the Potentium.

There is a difference between the Dark Side and evil. Evil is something that exists in real life and fiction and is independent of the Force. The Dark Side is a theorized aspect of the Force that is malevolent. Exar Kun can be evil without being "Dark Sided".

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If you're going to tell me that the Jedi steal infants, then freaking prove it. You have not provided a single example.

The entire point of the story was that Exar Kun fell because he used the dark side. He was corrupted when he used the dark side. There was no other direct reason for his turn.

See above statements.

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Cade actually gave into the dark side during his imprisonment by Darth Krayt and made use of a number of rather insidious Force powers (such as reopening previously healed wounds on an opponent's body), so he was not above the influence of the dark side.

Did he kill bunny rabbits with those powers? No, he used them to kill murderous Sith who were involved in the murder of his father and the Genocide of the Calamari.

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I believe you misunderstand. The point I'm trying to make by bringing Sidious into the discussion is not that he is a savior; Rather, that he and Revan are not that different. I've already stated that their motivations are the same thing.

The truth is that neither of them had the protection of the galaxy at the forefront of their motivations. If anything, that was simply how they justified their innumerable crimes to themselves. Both of them wanted the galaxy to survive - but only if it was a galaxy under their rule. If what Revan and Sidious truly cared about was saving the Republic's people, then why did they both try to destroy it? Why did Revan attack and nearly destroy it after forming the Sith Empire, instead of telling the Republic about the True Sith? Why did Sidious replace the Republic with the Galactic Empire?

My theory about Revan is that telling the Republic about the True Sith would alert said people to this discovery and provoke an outright attack. In Sidious' case I'm just betting he's as evil as we all think he is since I have no reason to think otherwise.

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The answer to both questions, of course, is that in their minds, there were only two possible outcomes if they had a say in it: their galaxy, or nobody's galaxy.

Revan had a goal outside of removing the Republic: kill the True Sith. If he had built his army he would have most likely attacked with it. Sidious on the other hand had his army but didn't stop the Vong when he could.

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Kreia lies to the Exile at the very beginning, telling her that the Jedi Council is responsible for her loss of connection to the Force, setting the events of the entire game in motion.

They might as well have done it. They exiled the Exile without giving their true reasons and didn't bother to help alleviate her condition.

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She lies to Tobin about the Jedi being at Telos, which causes Nihilus to go there, endangering Citadel Station's population (and it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume plenty of civilians were killed at that battle).

Tobin betrayed his own country alongside Vaklu to Nihilus, so it's only fair that he does his part to stop Nihilus. As for Citadel Station, better one station then all the Galaxy consumed by Nihilus' unquenchable hunger.

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After the confrontation with the Jedi Masters in the Enclave, Kreia lies to the Handmaiden and tells her that the Exile is dead in order to meet with Atris again. There are numerous other instances of Kreia lying and twisting the facts throughout the game. She is dishonest.

Perhaps, but so are the Jedi Council for lying to Revan about who he is. Everyone has lied, at least Kreia has decent reasons to do so.

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Kreia torments Hanharr by saving him when the only humane thing to do would be let the crazy wookiee die (he even wanted to die, as well). She toys with and even goes far as to openly gloat at Atton several times after using the Force to rip personal information from him, which she then proceeds to use to blackmail him into the Exile's service. She clearly hates Atton and probably would have killed or abandoned him somewhere if he wasn't Force-sensitive and capable of flying the ship (she also criticizes him for being a murderer, as if she hasn't killed plenty of people in her life). One of the most notable incidents is one which even suggests that she is racist: When Bao-dur confronts Kreia about the effect she is having on the Exile, she smacks him in the face with an artificial guilt grenade and tells him that "nothing human" could have built the Mass Shadow Generator. Kreia says this in order to break "the alien's" spirit so that he will not speak out against her again. She is malevolent.

We all have our problems.

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Then there's Mandalore, who Kreia blackmails into staying with the Exile.

Blackmails? She makes a trade: her knowledge of Revan for his protection for the Exile.

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She also screws around with Disciple's mind in order to keep her cover from being blown. As mentioned above, she also saves Tobin before sending him off to what is almost certain death after he serves his purpose. She tells the Exile straight from the beginning that she will have to kill Visas at some point and never credits the possibility that there is another way to stop Darth Nihilus.

Perhaps she didn't know about the alternative or believed Visas past redemption.

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Kreia is not above outright murder either, as demonstrated when she kills the three Jedi Masters in the Enclave (this is also an example of bigotry. She can't stand the hypocrisy that the Jedi Masters supposedly displayed when they exiled her "simply for not agreeing with them" , but is more than willing to kill all of them when they disagree with her).

She kills them for threatening the Exile.

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She also states that if it meant that the Exile lived, she would have killed everyone in the galaxy. Kreia says in the same conversation that she had been using the Exile throughout the entire game; the Exile was Kreia's unwitting sword and dagger against all of her enemies. Kreia is not above the use of manipulation, deceit, psychological torture, or murder to further her goals.

Nor is she all evil.

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Considering everything referenced in the above three paragraphs, how can it possibly be incorrect to state that Kreia is immoral?

Immoral has nothing to do with the truth of her statements.

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That doesn't change the fact that the Jedi weren't there in the first place. There's a difference between refraining from making preparations for defense, and deliberately refraining from doing so.

They never prepared for anything. If they were preparing for the coming of two Dark Lords, they should have told the Jedi "We can't fight the Mandalorians because we might have some Sith Lords incoming."

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First, it's not their fault Revan and Malak weren't satisfied with the given explanations. Second, why didn't Revan tell anyone about the True Sith?

They're the leaders. It's their job to keep their students in line. If they fail, then it's their fault.

As for Revan not telling anyone about the True Sith, see my earlier statement.

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It is an example of those five Jedi in the Covenant, and no more than that (especially considering the fact that they were not ordinary Jedi by any stretch).

They are Five Jedi Masters. That's no stretch.

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First off, the Council didn't wipe Revan's mind. His mind was already damaged. Second, Kreia has done much worse things with people's minds (see above).

Uh, yes they did wipe his mind. Bastila says so. They wiped what was left of his mind and put their own preferred persona inside. Forcibly redefining who is someone is is worse than anything Kreia does.

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Revan was solely responsible for the beginning of the Jedi Civil War, so one could argue that it was poetic justice for him to be the one that ends it. That aside, it was the only way the Republic could find the Star Forge and end the war, so the Council would be idiots not to do what they did. What were they supposed to do, anyway? It was either that, or let Malak finish the job that Revan started. Hell, the Council did the galaxy and Revan a favor by reprogramming him.

And if they had fought the Mandalorians in the first place the whole thing could have been avoided.

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"Using" Anakin to "betray" Palpatine was justified, because Palpatine, as the Sith Lord named Darth Sidious who was also the leader of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, was guilty of high treason (among many other things).

They didn't know that. They only disliked Palpatine because he had more influence with the Senate than they did.

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Mace Windu's decision to kill him after the duel in the Chancellor's office was justified, because Palpatine had just resisted arrest and killed three out of the four Jedi (who are officers of the law) who were sent to arrest him.

Palpatine had surrendered. Windu was about to kill him in cold blood.

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The difference is either Revan fell or chose to fall/turn because he thought it was the right thing to do.

Please provide an example or two of Jedi lying or manipulating without justification (or indeed, a single example of them doing any of those things in a situation outside of KOTOR 1 or 2, regardless of justification or lack thereof).[/QUOTE]
We are going around in circles. I justify this, you justify that, I denounce this, you denounce that.

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The Mandalorian fleet was outnumbered by that of the Republic (they had neither the numbers nor any political expertise that would allow them to rule the galaxy even if they could conquer it), and it's pretty clear that the only real reason they were losing the war is because the Republic leadership at the time was a bunch of idiotic schmucks, not anything to do with the absence of Jedi. The Mandalorians pillaged the Outer rim for ten years before the Republic actually decided to take action. The destruction caused by the Mandalorians went unchecked because the Republic (you know, the galactic government with an entire Navy and Army to protect itself with) acted too late, not the Jedi. It isn't the Jedi Order's responsibility to take command of the Republic Navy every time somebody vandalizes the Supreme Chancellor's building. As Mace Windu said, the Jedi are not soldiers.

The Republic is just as guilty as the Jedi. They are both responsible. And the Mandalorians had one of the best tacticians in the Galaxy: Mandalore the Ultimate.

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This entire argument is a red herring, because how wise Kreia is or what her motivations are or whether Carth Onasi has emotional demons or whether Whatshisname knows what true evil has has nothing to do with how accurate his recounts of the Jedi Civil War are.

And questioning their character doesn't having anything to do with this discuss either.

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Also, how is Kreia's exile from the Jedi Order a "betrayal"?

She had been cast out for teaching Revan, despite the fact that Revan had many teachers. By that logic, Zhar and Dorak should have been thrown out too.

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

Again, the whole thing of Revan fell. If anything this is Jedi propaganda.

This is Sith propaganda,lol. There are many who deny things that have happen in our time and call it propaganda but it still happen, wither we like it or not.

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Rather wearing the appearance and outward portrayal of a Dark Lord but holding onto his own personality in his mind.

This is assumption.
Even in kotor2 they said that all the Jedi turned to the dark side at the battle of Malachor V or died, except one....the Jedi Exile.

The psychological profile of Revan shows a shift in his behavior which would show evidence of a change in state, he fell to the Dark side.
See already posted 4 steps:

Now in the end of kotor1, Revan is more of a mix between the Jedi and Sith Revan, who is dictated more by his personality and convictions.

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Rather than address this, I have my own Four Stages of the Light Side.

......etc

As you can see, I can play the same game that the Jedi play.

To any firm Jedi lovers: If you are offended by this, I am sorry that is not my intent. I seek only to challenge the conventional notion that the Jedi are the "good guys".

I see that you can't agrue against my points, then you must see the truth in them.

Interesting 4 stages you have, but you make it sound like the Jedi brain wash the people. Not everyone becomes a Jedi, it is the ability to let go everything around you and find inner peace which is the core value of the Jedi. This is also a very health psychological state of mind, to not give into hate, anger, fear, recognize self suffering or contempt.... wouldn't you agree.

I would argue against your point, but since it is created by you there is no point since you would never give up your belief since you created your own 4 points for the Jedi.

The reference material I stated is from a Star wars published book, which holds more water then yours.

I never said the Jedi are good guys, each Jedi must define themselves.

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In this case, and as with Kreia, I am asking you not to challenge the character but challenge the validity of the statements themselves.

In order for me to validate the statement I have to look at who is saying it. The statement is only as strong as the person who states it. This is just the truth.

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I doubt this scenario is possible. Remember that the Mandalorians had a leader only slightly less skilled in tactics than Revan: Mandalore the Ultimate.

You doubt, but its possible.
For you to recognize that you doubt this could happen leaves it open that it could of happen. Again its hind site. To say it could not have happen would be ignorant. Everything is possible.

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Is this so malevolent? She certainly did a better job of teaching the Exile the ways of the Force than the Jedi teacher their students.

She was a great teacher, but she still struck revenge on the Jedi master who wronged her, killed Sion and Nihlius for revenge.

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Mad? Perhaps. But there is good reasoning behind destroying what could very well be a malevolent entity.

I'm glad you agree

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Now...how many credits can I offer you to join my side of the argument?

lol, I'm on no side. I'm only stating flaws in your arguements

Keep it coming, I see you are starting to agree with me in some areas...hmmm lol

This is Sith propaganda,lol. There are many who deny things that have happen in our time and call it propaganda but it still happen, wither we like it or not.

We always hear from the Jedi that Revan fell, and since the victors decide history that has become the official viewpoint. If only Revan, with all of his memories, could come back and tell us what happened. For now I am content to trust in Kreia, since the Jedi never give me sufficient reason to do so.

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This is assumption.
Even in kotor2 they said that all the Jedi turned to the dark side at the battle of Malachor V or died, except one....the Jedi Exile.

They?

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The psychological profile of Revan shows a shift in his behavior which would show evidence of a change in state, he fell to the Dark side.
See already posted 4 steps:

Now in the end of kotor1, Revan is more of a mix between the Jedi and Sith Revan, who is dictated more by his personality and convictions.

Or perhaps he was always like that...

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I see that you can't agrue against my points, then you must see the truth in them.

I'd like to argue against your points. Those, however, are part of the Jedi dogma.

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Interesting 4 stages you have, but you make it sound like the Jedi brain wash the people.

The Jedi accuse the Sith of the same thing, so it's perfectly possible that both do it. From where I'm standing, since the Sith are the prodigy of the Jedi, they had to learn it from somewhere.

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Not everyone becomes a Jedi, it is the ability to let go everything around you and find inner peace which is the core value of the Jedi.

At this time I quote the visions in Ludo Kreesh's tomb:

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Apathy is death.

The classic flaw of the Jedi is how removed they are from the world around them. Detachment makes one arrogant.

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This is also a very health psychological state of mind, to not give into hate, anger, fear, recognize self suffering or contempt.... wouldn't you agree.

Only if you see it as letting go of something that just "falls out of your mind". I see the Sith philosophy more stable (despite its obvious flaws) because it allows one to harness those emotions and put them to use. And it's not like this is always unsuccessful. Obi-Wan harnessed his anguish, grief, and outrage over Qui-Gon's death to make him more effective against Darth Maul without becoming evil. The Sith have the potential to do the same thing, but lack the moderating aspects of compassion, mercy, and love to keep them from being consumed by more malevolent emotions.

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I would argue against your point, but since it is created by you there is no point since you would never give up your belief since you created your own 4 points for the Jedi.

It isn't a belief so much as me using Jedi-logic against itself.

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The reference material I stated is from a Star wars published book, which holds more water then yours.

The Guide from what I can tell is very Jedi-biased.

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I never said the Jedi are good guys, each Jedi must define themselves.

Never said you were. That last bit is addressed to "Jediphiles". From what I can tell, you're more open-minded.

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In order for me to validate the statement I have to look at who is saying it. The statement is only as strong as the person who states it. This is just the truth.

So if Darth Vader claims that there was an Empire State Building, there never was one?

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You doubt, but its possible.
For you to recognize that you doubt this could happen leaves it open that it could of happen. Again its hind site. To say it could not have happen would be ignorant. Everything is possible.

Of course, but in this case I am measuring likelihood. In this case the likelihood of the Mandalorians wiping out the Republic minus the Jedi was high.

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She was a great teacher, but she still struck revenge on the Jedi master who wronged her, killed Sion and Nihlius for revenge.

My understanding is that she killed Sion and Nihilus in order to make amends for her failure in them.

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I'm glad you agree

???

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lol, I'm on no side. I'm only stating flaws in your arguements

In mine only? Why not TKA-001's as well? It's only fair...

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Keep it coming, I see you are starting to agree with me in some areas...hmmm lol

Logan

Certainly, considering we agree on a lot of stuff involving KOTOR III An End of an Era.

Still, I will continue to disagree on others....

[Darkside points gained. Lord of Hunger has now gained full DS mastery and has Force Crush, Force Storm, Force Kill, and Death Field.]

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

"Your code experts intercepted and decrypted an enemy broadcast that reveals that the enemy's base will be vulnerable in 10 days. It also reveals that the enemy will attack one of your civilian worlds in 5 days. Knowing that if you reinforce that world you will alert the enemy to your discovery, what do you do?"

If you went with Revan's path, you do nothing about the civilian world. This actually occurred in WWII when Britain intercepted a Nazi broadcast in code, and had to let a small city get bombed in order to keep that vital advantage. They chose Revan's path.

Thanks for clearing that up. This makes it clear that letting populations die despite being in a position to help them is Revan's solution.

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I'm saying tough decisions are made in war, and you have to adapt to situations sometime. But there is a difference between the guy who goes out to commit genocide, and the guy who has to let genocide happen to stop they guy who is doing the genocide.

Revan didn't have to let the Mandalorians commit genocide. His plan to corrupt his Jedi followers banked on their atrocities.

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Then let's execute ourselves and hand over America to the British!

Revan's actions couldn't have been secession, because he was a military commander, not a politician or ruler of the people. He commanded fleets and armies. He and his forces went AWOL when they left into the Unknown Regions, and then committed treason when they first attacked the Republic.

This case has nothing to do with the type of situation we're talking about here. The child's parents were presumed dead when the decision was made, so the rest of the case fails to mean jack when it comes to stealing.

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My theory about Revan is that telling the Republic about the True Sith would alert said people to this discovery and provoke an outright attack.

You have no evidence whatsoever that the True Sith had any means of attacking the Republic at that point in time, or that they had the means of finding out if Revan had chosen to tell anyone. Even if they have a number of spies, they're not omniscient.

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In Sidious' case I'm just betting he's as evil as we all think he is since I have no reason to think otherwise.

I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how their motivations were any different.

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Revan had a goal outside of removing the Republic: kill the True Sith. If he had built his army he would have most likely attacked with it. Sidious on the other hand had his army but didn't stop the Vong when he could.

Sidious didn't stop the Vong because he was dead for over twenty years before they arrived.

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They might as well have done it. They exiled the Exile without giving their true reasons and didn't bother to help alleviate her condition.

So "might as well from a certain point of view" is the same as doing it? Besides, that doesn't change the fact that Kreia lied about it, and that's the point that was made.

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Tobin betrayed his own country alongside Vaklu to Nihilus, so it's only fair that he does his part to stop Nihilus. As for Citadel Station, better one station then all the Galaxy consumed by Nihilus' unquenchable hunger.

Again, the point was that Kreia was a liar, and nothing else.

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Perhaps, but so are the Jedi Council for lying to Revan about who he is. Everyone has lied, at least Kreia has decent reasons to do so.

So first, Kreia isn't dishonest in the slightest, but now it's justified because teh Jedi Council was so evil and meany to her? Stop moving the goalpost.

As for the Jedi lying to Revan... Why do I need to explain this? Revan was the man who had earlier been trying to kill all of them and conquer the galaxy. What reason did they have to believe that Revan wouldn't go on a berserk rampage if they told him the truth from the start? What good could possibly have come of it?

As for that being more evil than what Kreia does, just look at Atton - Atton, who has not committed nearly as many or as ridiculous crimes as Revan, and who did nothing to provoke Kreia other than speaking flippantly in her presence. She pries his past out of his mind against his will and uses it to blackmail him into helping her with her goals, which are highly questionable at best (while eliminating the Star Forge was an obvious necessity for the Republic's safety). She doesn't even pretend to be trying to help him or anything - she just wants a tool.

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We all have our problems.

The second case of you blatantly moving the goalpost. First you say that Kreia is not malevolent in the slightest, but now you say it doesn't even matter because you just ran into a brick wall.

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Perhaps she didn't know about the alternative or believed Visas past redemption.

No, it's pretty clear that, given Kreia's opinion on people in general, she simply didn't care about Visas' actual life (supported by the fact that she acts indignant toward the Exile when she refrains from killing Visas, along with her other comments about "the seer").

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She kills them for threatening the Exile.

Balderdash. The Sith Lord doesn't kill the Jedi Masters because they're threatening someone. She kills the Jedi Masters because she hates them and wants them dead. If Kreia's decision in the Enclave was motivated by the need to protect something, then it was because she cared about the Exile in the same way that an arsonist cares about his gasoline, not because she gave a **** about the Exile in any way other than how she could be used to further her own ridiculous goals. Besides, if Kreia's real motivation was protecting the Exile from the "evil" of the Jedi, then she would have at least attempted to take them alive.

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Immoral has nothing to do with the truth of her statements.

In real life, statements coming from a depraved, murdering psychopath would usually be seen as unreliable when it comes to accuracy.

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They never prepared for anything. If they were preparing for the coming of two Dark Lords, they should have told the Jedi "We can't fight the Mandalorians because we might have some Sith Lords incoming."

If the Council had said that, Revan wouldn't believe it. It was a lose-lose scenario for the Council.

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They're the leaders. It's their job to keep their students in line. If they fail, then it's their fault.

No, it's the students' fault for ignoring the people who might know better than them. This is another situation where Mr. Kun makes a good example: How is it Vodo-Siosk Baas' fault that his student (Exar Kun) turned?

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Uh, yes they did wipe his mind. Bastila says so. They wiped what was left of his mind and put their own preferred persona inside. Forcibly redefining who is someone is is worse than anything Kreia does.

Bastila says both, actually, but in retrospect, the exact means of the Council reprogramming Revan is neither here nor there. I apologize for bringing this up.

Turning Revan back into a Jedi was an act of mercy that some could argue that he never deserved. When Kreia manipulates a mind, it's either to cover her own ass or to help her get revenge on the people she hates. I have trouble believing that Kreia would be as interested in stopping the Sith if Sion and Nihilus hadn't turned on her and thrown her out.

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And if they had fought the Mandalorians in the first place the whole thing could have been avoided.

Throwing "what-if" scenarios with no evidence other than our own personal opinions will get this discussion nowhere.

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She had been cast out for teaching Revan, despite the fact that Revan had many teachers. By that logic, Zhar and Dorak should have been thrown out too.

Kreia was not exiled just for being a teacher of Revan. She was exiled not only because she helped encourage Revan to leave the Jedi Order, but also because she had apparently failed in her teachings - all of Kreia's other students followed Revan and turned to the dark side, as well.

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They didn't know that. They only disliked Palpatine because he had more influence with the Senate than they did.

Palpatine had surrendered. Windu was about to kill him in cold blood.

You have got to be ****ting me.

Three years into the Clone Wars, the Jedi launched an investigation into the identity of Darth Sidious after capturing a piece of technology that Sidious used to communicate with Trade Federation Viceroy Gunray. Examination of this device led them to the main hideout of Darth Sidious on Coruscant, and from there, to the apartment building of Chancellor Palpatine and his advisors. The Jedi had already learned from Count Dooku that his Master and direct superior, the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, whoever he was, was in a position of considerable power in the Republic government. This investigation confirmed what Dooku had told them. (References: Episode II: Attack of the Clones and the novel Labyrinth of Evil)

The Jedi Order knew that Darth Sidious was within the office of the Supreme Chancellor and his advisors, so when Anakin Skywalker testified that Palpatine had confessed to being Sidious to them, they knew damn well who the Second Sith was.

The Jedi Order had sufficient reason to place Chancellor Palpatine under arrest. After consulting Grandmaster Yoda about the situation (Reference: Revenge of the Sith novelization), Jedi Masters Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tinn were sent to arrest Palpatine. Palpatine then (unlawfully) proceeded not only to resist arrest, but to do so with lethal force. By the end of his duel with Mace, Sidious had killed the three other Jedi Masters seemingly without effort.

Furthermore, it is an outright lie to say that Darth Sidious surrendered. He never did or said any such thing. He played possum and pretended to be defenseless, but it was obviously just a ruse. Sidious was too dangerous to leave alive. This is proven when all hell breaks loose due to Anakin deciding to save him.

Seriously... The Jedi wanting to kill Palpatine over political power? What movie were you watching?

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

I wish there was KOTOR3 with Revan's thought in Video,not words from somebody.So the problem will be undebatable.And I can avoid being tired of reading all posts from you three(j/k)
I think the Jedi are admirable.We all know how hard it is to control our emotion.Doing a quick and precise mental reaction to suppress emotion is not an easy thing.
All posts are interesting though.

I wish there was KOTOR3 with Revan's thought in Video,not words from somebody.So the problem will be undebatable.And I can avoid being tired of reading all posts from you three(j/k)
I think the Jedi are admirable.We all know how hard it is to control our emotion.Doing a quick and precise mental reaction to suppress emotion is not an easy thing.
All posts are interesting though.

suppressing ones emotions would make one emotionless. it would also make it that one would be lying to oneself and to others about who they truely were. it is not evil to give in to emotions, it is the person that is evil. if i were angry at someone and i hit them, does it make me evil for giving into my emotions and striking them? i do not think so. some people wuld go beyond that and kill a person that angered them. that all depends on how good or evil the person is. things that only manifest themselves in time of stress. so what i'm essentially saying is that all of the JEDI are simply lying to themselves until they give in, at one moment or another, to their emotions and become what they claim to be deadset against, albeit some for a short time and others for much longer. (i.e. obi-wan gives in when he kills maul, anakin gives in when he kills the sand people, when he kills dooku, and when he kills Mace, and i think he stays evil from then until luke brings back the good and he kills palpatine) so most jedi return to the light, some of course do not (Darth Krayt) but i think most trained in the way of the jedi tend to return to it but it depends on the capacity for evil within the individual. that is why i think the potentium exists (in the nonexistant star wars universe) i dont think the movies nullify it in any way i think they strengthen it by showing that it is the persons capacity for good and evil that drives them one way or the other, not the force, the force simply flows through the user and in doing so is used for good or ill. the prophecy of the sith'ari is just vague enough to apply to many people but also strict enough to invalidate those same people. Now i was just thinking about the sith'ari and could it possibly be the exile? She is free of all restrictions including the Force, she destroys the triumvirate and then the sith empire comes and its stronger than the sith ever were. just a thought.

There is no Palpatine. No Empire. No Jedi. There is no Light. No Dark... Just you, and I, here, now.

Since I have limited time on my hands I will respond to Ibelin. Druganator and TKA-001, I promise to respond to your posts later in the day.

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Originally Posted by Ibelin

I wish there was KOTOR3 with Revan's thought in Video,not words from somebody.So the problem will be undebatable.And I can avoid being tired of reading all posts from you three(j/k)
I think the Jedi are admirable.We all know how hard it is to control our emotion.Doing a quick and precise mental reaction to suppress emotion is not an easy thing.
All posts are interesting though.

It is hard to control one's emotions. But is it desirable? Are emotions are an integral part of who we are. Control is this respect is stifling emotion.

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

I think that ability it's desirable.As it give us time to think about what we should do.Thus we may have a wiser reaction.
I agree with you that emotions are intergral parts of who we are, so we own them.And controling them proves the ownership. And giving into emotions is like let them control you, which declines that ownership.

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Now i was just thinking about the sith'ari and could it possibly be the exile? She is free of all restrictions including the Force, she destroys the triumvirate and then the sith empire comes and its stronger than the sith ever were

We always hear from the Jedi that Revan fell, and since the victors decide history that has become the official viewpoint. If only Revan, with all of his memories, could come back and tell us what happened. For now I am content to trust in Kreia, since the Jedi never give me sufficient reason to do so.

What if Revan comes back and goes...mmm...yeah I fell to the dark side...it was a faze.

I don't trust Kreia since she would use he to get what ever she wants, and when I'm expendable, she would cast me aside like how she viewed the Exile's party. I will pass on Kreia but I did hear she is great at karaoke

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Even in kotor2 they said that all the Jedi turned to the dark side at the battle of Malachor V or died, except one....the Jedi Exile.
They?

Yup, that was the whole concept with kotor2, all the Jedi fell to the dark side or died at Malachor V's battle, except one.....the Jedi Exile. Its in the game. That's why Kreia was looking for you, she wanted to know how and why a person could walk away...walk away from the force.

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Now in the end of kotor1, Revan is more of a mix between the Jedi and Sith Revan, who is dictated more by his personality and convictions.
Or perhaps he was always like that...

From a psychological stand point, anyone would be changed from what he has gone through. The Revan during kotor1 is the not the same Revan as the one who was a jedi, General Revan, and Darth Revan. As a person goes through life they change do to events, its only natural. Its basic psychology.

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I'd like to argue against your points. Those, however, are part of the Jedi dogma.

Its not dogma its psychology. You can imply those 4 items to many areas, like crime, murder...etc.

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The Jedi accuse the Sith of the same thing, so it's perfectly possible that both do it. From where I'm standing, since the Sith are the prodigy of the Jedi, they had to learn it from somewhere.

The Sith only make the person see how they can achieve a goal in their way and then ground it so that the person would not have resentment from the action. The Sith know that resentment for the action before its committed will cause a person to not go through with it. If the action is already happen then resentment can be re directed so that the person's mind will not feel pain. An example of this was when Anakin killed Windu. Anakin cried out what have I done. The emperor re-directed that resentment, bring in that the Jedi would kill them so they must act fast. We all mentally want to move away from pain and to pleasure, its in our programming.

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Only if you see it as letting go of something that just "falls out of your mind". I see the Sith philosophy more stable (despite its obvious flaws) because it allows one to harness those emotions and put them to use. And it's not like this is always unsuccessful. Obi-Wan harnessed his anguish, grief, and outrage over Qui-Gon's death to make him more effective against Darth Maul without becoming evil. The Sith have the potential to do the same thing, but lack the moderating aspects of compassion, mercy, and love to keep them from being consumed by more malevolent emotions.

Any person who fights with rage will lose. Look up any military source and you will see that the calm and focus army wins, not the ones running mad at their enemy. Obi-Wan almost died to Mail do to his anger and lost of his master. He fought hard but at the end he was hanging on a cliff. Only when he calmed himself and focus did he see an opportunity to defeat Maul. And this is how Maul died. Watch the video.

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It isn't a belief so much as me using Jedi-logic against itself.

I would hope its a belief if not then the battle is lost. Beliefs make you strong and grounded.

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The Guide from what I can tell is very Jedi-biased.

Its a star wars publish guide, its cannon, get over it. lol

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Keep it coming, I see you are starting to agree with me in some areas...hmmm lol

Logan
Certainly, considering we agree on a lot of stuff involving KOTOR III An End of an Era.

Yes we do and with use being able to debate issue like this will allow the PC and story a more dynamic feel since we will both not be yes-ing each other to death,

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In mine only? Why not TKA-001's as well? It's only fair...

I'm getting there

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Revan had a goal outside of removing the Republic: kill the True Sith. If he had built his army he would have most likely attacked with it. Sidious on the other hand had his army but didn't stop the Vong when he could.
Sidious didn't stop the Vong because he was dead for over twenty years before they arrived.

If my memory is correct the Vong was not even invented, don't remember Lucas ever thinking about the Vong when he wrote star wars 4-6. So it would be safe to say Sidious didn't attack them since they were not invented yet.

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Balderdash. The Sith Lord doesn't kill the Jedi Masters because they're threatening someone. She kills the Jedi Masters because she hates them and wants them dead. If Kreia's decision in the Enclave was motivated by the need to protect something, then it was because she cared about the Exile in the same way that an arsonist cares about his gasoline, not because she gave a **** about the Exile in any way other than how she could be used to further her own ridiculous goals. Besides, if Kreia's real motivation was protecting the Exile from the "evil" of the Jedi, then she would have at least attempted to take them alive.

Kreia did care for the Exile since even at the end she said she would kill the galaxy to preserve the Exile. With the scene with the Jedi masters, Kreia wanted the masters to see their faults in their teaching so they can be broken. There was a small part of her that hoped that if the Jedi masters could see the beauty in the Exile that Kreia could feel that all she has done was was for something good. When the events went bad, Kreia killed the the Jedi masters and left the Exile there. She then set forward her plan to destroy Atris, Nihilus, and Sion, and to force the Exile to confront her demons on Mlachor V.

What if Revan comes back and goes...mmm...yeah I fell to the dark side...it was a faze.

Then I'll accept that. However, every indication we're getting is that we'll never hear from Revan himself.

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I don't trust Kreia since she would use he to get what ever she wants, and when I'm expendable, she would cast me aside like how she viewed the Exile's party. I will pass on Kreia but I did hear she is great at karaoke

Very funny, but frankly a lot of the people she uses are simply not respectable. The only truly decent person that she uses is Mical, but all she does is suppress any memories relating to her plot to destroy the Force so he does blow the whole thing.

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Yup, that was the whole concept with kotor2, all the Jedi fell to the dark side or died at Malachor V's battle, except one.....the Jedi Exile. Its in the game. That's why Kreia was looking for you, she wanted to know how and why a person could walk away...walk away from the force.

1) Who makes that statement is what I'm asking?
2) From what I can tell, Kreia doesn't care about LS or DS. She cares about the Exile turning away from the Force.

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From a psychological stand point, anyone would be changed from what he has gone through. The Revan during kotor1 is the not the same Revan as the one who was a jedi, General Revan, and Darth Revan. As a person goes through life they change do to events, its only natural. Its basic psychology.

Some people have very strong willpower. They are able to resist mental changes despite the situation but carry whatever outward person is necessary.

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Its not dogma its psychology. You can imply those 4 items to many areas, like crime, murder...etc.

I disagree, partially because this is the viewpoint of one Jedi Master. She, like the rest of the Jedi, does not take into account that
a) The Dark Side may not exist and there is simply evil out there.
b) There are many forms of evil, and not all have the same effect.
c) She is applying one psychological profile to all cases of Dark Jedi and Sith.

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The Sith only make the person see how they can achieve a goal in their way and then ground it so that the person would not have resentment from the action. The Sith know that resentment for the action before its committed will cause a person to not go through with it. If the action is already happen then resentment can be re directed so that the person's mind will not feel pain. An example of this was when Anakin killed Windu. Anakin cried out what have I done. The emperor re-directed that resentment, bring in that the Jedi would kill them so they must act fast. We all mentally want to move away from pain and to pleasure, its in our programming.

Irregardless, resentment has a basis in real life. Anakin (despite being a stupid, whiny teenager) was considered nothing but a tool of the Jedi as both a spy and THE CHOSEN ONE (Note: I always capitalize this. ). The Council only used him, nothing more. The Sith don't have to lie, since half-truths are more effective.

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Any person who fights with rage will lose. Look up any military source and you will see that the calm and focus army wins, not the ones running mad at their enemy. Obi-Wan almost died to Mail do to his anger and lost of his master. He fought hard but at the end he was hanging on a cliff. Only when he calmed himself and focus did he see an opportunity to defeat Maul. And this is how Maul died. Watch the video.

I did watch this and you fail to take into account that Obi-Wan's performance dramatically improved when he tapped into his rage. Maul was still stronger, though was defeated by his hubris.

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I would hope its a belief if not then the battle is lost. Beliefs make you strong and grounded.

I am actually considering those Four Stages as a belief, but only if I can prepare a more solid case for the Jedi being no better than the Sith.

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Its a star wars publish guide, its cannon, get over it. lol

Until it's retconned, like all the guides before it. So I hold any bias within against it.

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Yes we do and with use being able to debate issue like this will allow the PC and story a more dynamic feel since we will both not be yes-ing each other to death,

Exactly.

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I'm getting there

YES!!!

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

well she served the purposes of the sith on more that one occasion. she was at malachor v and instructed bao dur to activate the MSG and killed half of the military forces there. then she rounded up the Jedi masters and kreia killed them. so if she wasn't a with she certainly acted like one.

There is no Palpatine. No Empire. No Jedi. There is no Light. No Dark... Just you, and I, here, now.

You guys sure do write a lot. I just wanted to clear up (muddy?) two small points. First of all:

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

Revan's war crimes were made clear in both KOTOR games, where it is stated that leaving certain planets defenseless against attacking Mandalorians in order to use the subsequent massacre as a morale booster was a basic strategy in his mind. Strange how it's fine for Revan to let the Mandalorians kill planets, but not for the Jedi Council (even if that isn't what they were doing). Also, the decimation of Malachor V was definitely a war crime (Bao-dur remarks that even the Mandalorians never did anything that horrendous).

This is only half true. The reason Revan abandonded certain planets was so that he could bolster the defenses of other planets to make them unassailable. This is a pretty standard tactic, although each time (as far as the game is concerned) one of these planets fell, it drew the Republic forces and the Jedi closer to the darkside.

Secondly, the debate about Revan falling or not falling. Think back to the Temple of the Ancients on Lehon. The reason Revan couldn't go straight to the roof like before is because his mind had changed. While one could argue that this was a byproduct of the Council erasing his memory, you also have to factor in the corruption of the dark side. While Revan may have become the Dark Lord to save the galaxy, he wasn't strong enough maintain control and thus he ended up falling. Sure, it may have begun with a sacrifice, but in the end, he ended up as dark as a Guinness beer.

You guys sure do write a lot. I just wanted to clear up (muddy?) two small points. First of all:

We do write a lot indeed. Frankly I'm enjoying this.

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This is only half true. The reason Revan abandonded certain planets was so that he could bolster the defenses of other planets to make them unassailable. This is a pretty standard tactic, although each time (as far as the game is concerned) one of these planets fell, it drew the Republic forces and the Jedi closer to the darkside.

Or perhaps it simply made them emotionally harder and willing to make sacrifices necessary in war. The reason why the Sith were defeating the Republic during the Jedi Civil War wasn't just the Star Forge, since the Republic already had a numbers superiority to begin with. The Republic Military under Revan made sacrifices to secure victory, a planet here, a base there, in order to save hundreds of other planets. During the Jedi Civil Wars they were under the command of the more pacifistic Jedi in the Order and had a more humanitarian directive. Their goal was not victory, but protecting innocents. Yet sometimes you have to sacrifice something to get something, no matter how gruesome it is.

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Secondly, the debate about Revan falling or not falling. Think back to the Temple of the Ancients on Lehon. The reason Revan couldn't go straight to the roof like before is because his mind had changed. While one could argue that this was a byproduct of the Council erasing his memory, you also have to factor in the corruption of the dark side. While Revan may have become the Dark Lord to save the galaxy, he wasn't strong enough maintain control and thus he ended up falling. Sure, it may have begun with a sacrifice, but in the end, he ended up as dark as a Guinness beer.

I'm supporting the Council erasing his memory. His true personality was likely suppressed by this act, though in the end it was temporary.

I'd also like to bring everyone's attention to another piece of information regarding Revan's "humanity". It is claimed that Revan's tactics were brutal during the Jedi Civil War. Yet I would like to cite GO-TO and Mical to counter this assertion. They both note in Revan's tactics that he, unlike Malak, deliberately avoided damaging the Republic's infrastructure, targeting armies and Jedi instead. This means two things:

1) He was not as brutal as Carth, the Republic, and the Jedi made him out to be.
2) Even as Dark Lord he was preparing the Galaxy for war against the True Sith by leaving a stable base for a military and political machine that could stand against them. If he was corrupted by the "Dark Side," he would have simply crushed all opposition in his path. That's what any "Dark Sider" or individual corrupted by the "Dark Side" normally does, since they rarely thing rationally. This strategy bares the markings of a very rational, though cold, tactician.

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That's all I got, feel free to pick away at it.

Thanks. I enjoyed doing so.

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

well she served the purposes of the sith on more that one occasion. she was at malachor v and instructed bao dur to activate the MSG and killed half of the military forces there. then she rounded up the Jedi masters and kreia killed them. so if she wasn't a with she certainly acted like one.

I'm not satisfied with 2 examples above.What she did at Malachor was just following Revan's order.She may have ordered Bao-dur to build MSG but it was up to Revan to use MSG or not.
And the second one on Dantooine.The Exile was used by Kreia.She told the lie from the beginning.

I'm not satisfied with 2 examples above.What she did at Malachor was just following Revan's order.She may have ordered Bao-dur to build MSG but it was up to Revan to use MSG or not.
And the second one on Dantooine.The Exile was used by Kreia.She told the lie from the beginning.

right but what the exile did at malachor caused many jedi to fall, and killed many jedi and republic soldiers as well regardless of revans orders the exile is the one who helped to create it and the exile is the one who told bao dur to use it. and dantooine, i know it was not her decision for them to be killed (canonically) but she caused it nonetheless.

I'm not saying my belief is that it is the exile all im saying is that its something to ponder.

There is no Palpatine. No Empire. No Jedi. There is no Light. No Dark... Just you, and I, here, now.

I have always wondering this.As i read the name Revan comes from revanch.And Revan had a nick name of The Revanchist too.I mean it's too dark for a Jedi(Revan had was called so even before the Mandalorians war end).How can it be possible to have such a name when he is a jedi?

I have always wondering this.As i read the name Revan comes from revanch.And Revan had a nick name of The Revanchist too.I mean it's too dark for a Jedi(Revan had was called so even before the Mandalorians war end).How can it be possible to have such a name when he is a jedi?

There's people that their real name is actually Revan, it's a pretty normal name for me.

"Evil is a word used by the ignorant and the weak. The dark side is about survival. It's about unleashing your inner power. It glorifies the strength of the individual."

I have always wondering this.As i read the name Revan comes from revanch.And Revan had a nick name of The Revanchist too.I mean it's too dark for a Jedi(Revan had was called so even before the Mandalorians war end).How can it be possible to have such a name when he is a jedi?

People canm be named what ever they want, if they think it sounds cool , cultural name ect

cultural name would'nt make much sense unless they confirmed a birthplace.

I remember reading the book Darth Bane path of destruction by Andrew Kapyshyrn, lead KOTOR designer. It said that four Sith'ari's will arise at different ages. Here is my assumption. Darth Naga Sadow was the first who led the way for others. Darth Revan was the second, because he built the first true sith Empire. Darth Bane was the third because he established the rule of two, the first to ever begin a new age for the sith. And the last one, of course, was Darth Vader. The prophessy stated that he would become the most powerful sith, but the sith'ari never came to pass because palpatine died and so did Vader. The galaxy would have surely been destroyed if the fourth prophessy came to pass, but it didn't. More self proclaimed weaker "Sith Lords" like Darth Dessan, Jarec, Darth Nihl, and others, but they never were powerful enough to become Sith'ari.