What do men think of catcalling? A men's rights activist and a feminist debate

By now, you're aware of the Hollaback video that went viral in late October: A hidden camera followed a woman as she experienced more than 100 catcalls, within 10 hours of walking in New York City.

What you may not have noticed were the comment sections of this video and the social forums where it was being shared. Some of the most frequent commenters were men who decried this treatment on the one hand, and defended it on the other.

Image: YouTube

Image: YouTube

If one of the goals of the video was to get men talking, well, it worked.

In an effort to synthesize the major pillars of the discussion, we asked two men to tackle some of the video's biggest strengths and flaws, as well as the definition of "harassment" in general. Introducing Paul Elam, founder of A Voice for Men, a men's rights news site, and Amani Herron, founder of the Truth From The Basement blog and an advocate against domestic violence.

We recommend watching the Hollaback video first, if you haven't already:

What was your first reaction after you watched the Hollaback video?

Paul: My first reaction to the Hollaback video was that it was highly deceptive. "Good morning" and "God bless you" are now sexual harassment and intimidation? In whose distorted worldview? There was some behavior in the video that I believe crossed a line, like following a stranger closely on the street for several minutes. However, much of what is shown is innocuous, even friendly.

The video also sends a rather chilling message to men that they should avoid conversing with women altogether. The undertone hints at “speak when spoken to,” and those who break that rule are guilty of harassment. What kind of message is this to men who were, despite the video’s false claim of diversity, almost exclusively African-American and Hispanic? Not that it is healthy to send that message to anyone of any color.

The crypto-bigotry in all of it is actually quite stunning, and the producers of this video should be called out on it. Certainly, street harassment is an issue worth exploring for both sexes (yes, it happens to men, too), but there is enough of the real thing that we need not target every tip of the hat and daily greeting as a street crime.

Listen to Paul's opening statement in audio form:

Amani: Paul, you’ve just perfectly illustrated why it takes so much to even have this conversation. You watched the video, have heard from countless women saying it mirrors their daily lives, and your takeaway is that it’s deceptive and to tell them how they should feel?

The conversation is simple: Do you believe that women as human beings deserve to be able to walk down the street without a constant stream of unwanted conversation and commentary? Most of us hate telemarketers no matter how polite they are; why then would we excuse that behavior on the street where there is the added dimension of physical encroachment in that space?

Now, I’ll certainly acknowledge the video’s racial politics were disturbing. The notion that street harassment is isolated to black or Latino men is demonstrably false, and omitting white men deserves calling out. That said, there is a difference between addressing the racist subtext in the video and using that racism to divert attention from addressing the topic all together. We’re quite capable of having both discussions at once.

Listen to Amani's opening arguments:

Paul: I have heard from many women who say this video does not mirror their daily lives, and women who interpreted the video the same way I did: as race-baiting, sexist and deceptive...

This is not a just a conversation about women, but about people across the full spectrum of humanity. I believe all human beings are deserving of (insert ideal treatment here), but I also understand the reality of human coexistence. Sometimes it is imperfect.

There are many nuisances in life: panhandlers, strangers who talk too much, people who catcall and make inappropriate remarks, sales people, survey takers and even officious video makers. Are we to build walls between all human beings? Are we to silence everyone so that we can all go about our business without being bothered by anyone saying “good morning”? Surely you are kidding.

It’s a sidewalk, Amani, not a red carpet.

If a man wants to talk to a strange woman, what should he consider before doing so? What is the correct approach to make sure everyone feels safe and respected?

Amani: If a man wants to talk to a woman he doesn't know, I’d suggest following baseline rules for human interaction. A conversation requires mutual engagement and basic decency applies; respect people’s boundaries and time, establish eye contact and be polite. Disabuse yourself of the notion that you are owed anything in return; treat women as fellow human beings and not sexual objects, and you’ll be pleasantly surprised how easy it is.

Those attacking the video attempt to frame this conversation as threatening the right to polite greetings, or telling people not to talk to each other. That’s not an argument anyone committed to ending street harassment has ever made because it’s patently ridiculous. There is, however, a difference between talking with someone and talking at them. Yelling at someone who has walked past you and has shown no interest in responding is not a conversation. Repeatedly doing so because they didn't acknowledge you is harassment, even when couched in pleasantries.

The conversation is simple: People should feel comfortable walking (whether on the sidewalk or the red carpet) without having to plan strategies to avoid being harassed and feeling unsafe. If you can acknowledge imperfections, why shouldn't we work to fix them?

Paul: After watching this video, one thing a man might want to consider is whether his approach will be recorded and later painted as a street crime, regardless of what he says or how he says it.

Seriously, Amani, if saying “good morning” is an act of harassment, then what could possibly convey safety and respect?

It is time to remove gender from the equation. Stop infantilizing women as helpless non-actors in their own world, incapable of saying, “I’m not interested" or even, perhaps, “Hi. Good morning to you, too!”

Demonizing men in order to produce an ideological narrative intended to create fear is not going to make women safer or more respected. Men, by the way, deserve respect, too. Painting them as creeps for showing interest in a woman is highly disrespectful.

How about we frame all this in human rather than sexual or other terms? How about we don’t frame every demonstration of interest in another human being as something sinister and dangerous? How about we avoid the irrational edicts of would-be social engineers? Perhaps that will help stem the tendency to produce videos bemoaning the terrible struggles of attractive, large-breasted white women in black neighborhoods.

Amani: Now we see what happens when you can’t argue an issue on merit. Instead of dealing in reality, you’ve tried to create your own bogeymen. You’re the one demonizing men, if you see them as incapable of holding an adult conversation without harassing others.

Women are leading this conversation, not being infantilized, and have been doing so for years. Look at Feminista Jones and her work with #YouOkSis. There’s Holly Kearl, the founder of Stop Street Harassment. Amanda Seales has been out front talking about it. Women of all backgrounds have been sharing their stories, writing about them and organizing around them. Amplify those voices instead of silencing them, and we can have a real conversation.

If you’re afraid of being painted as a creep, then don’t be a creep and treat people with respect. When someone tells you that your behavior is disrespectful, annoying, and makes them feel uncomfortable or even threatened, a reasonable adult apologizes, tries to understand why and then corrects it. You want to center this on a “right” to control the terms of engagement — that doesn’t supersede someone’s right to safely walk down the street in peace.

The woman who was in the video received numerous death threats. Why do you think that is?

Paul: This makes me do an eye-roll so hard that it requires a windup.

It’s an increasingly common modern phenomenon that ideologues will use the Internet to make outlandish claims, e.g. good morning = sexual harassment, resulting in some of the most depraved morons on the Internet making stupid, retaliatory comments.

This is usually followed by, “See, they are trying to silence all women! Help us fight it!” This call to action is often echoed repeatedly by the media, with a link to the latest fundraising effort on behalf of the supposedly silenced.

The Internet is full of trolls. Some of them make rude, even threatening comments. Others make outlandish, biased and deceitful videos in order to elicit rude and even threatening comments that can then be parlayed into cash.

And that is precisely what we are seeing here. Count on a fundraiser near you, and in the end it will not make anyone, male or female, safer on the street.

Amani: Since Paul is still too busy slaying imaginary dragons, I’ll try to bring us back to the real world.

Rather than listening to and understanding what people are telling you they feel, those who feel their worldview is threatened choose to lash out violently to protect their status quo. That’s why Paul is so callously able to dismiss rape and death threats as “increasingly common” and even somehow equate that to filming yourself walking down the street for your own protection, or suggest that the video provoked it.

It’s the same instinct that saw Mary Spears shot and killed in Detroit after rejecting a man harassing her, or Maren Sanchez stabbed in Connecticut for turning down a prom date. But instead of dealing with the fact that they don’t have a right to women’s bodies, attention or time (or those of any other human being), people like Paul try to make themselves victims and falsely frame this around their “right” to say hello. It has never been about that and ignoring reality is an insult to everyone’s intelligence.

Contrary to the fear mongering and logical pratfalls used to criticize the video, this topic is remarkably simple: Don’t harass women.

In general, why do women seem to treat strange men differently than men treat women? Should that double standard exist? How should women treat men in public?

Paul: The question makes a lot of assumptions. I watched a video that was done to mimic the street "harassment" video, using a man with an exceptional physique and good looks. He was "harassed" repeatedly by women and gay men, or at least they spent enough time gathering video of him walking till they could make a two-minute video documenting those "assaults."

The double standard here is that the actions of women are either denied, downplayed or otherwise deemed insignificant. And the fact is, they are insignificant. I won't play into this hysteria by characterizing what happened to the man as traumatic any more than someone saying "good morning" to a woman.

If you research crime statistics you will find that men are much more likely to be the victims of actual violent crime on the streets. And that is where the double standard is so incredibly glaring. Men are by far more at risk on the streets, yet we are actually debating the evil of men trying to get the attention of a woman, and targeting minorities in the process? Just wow.

Women should treat everyone with respect. So should men. No one should profit from the fact that, at times, both don't.

Amani: As for why women generally interact differently with men they don’t know, for the most part it comes back to how we are socialized. Women aren’t taught that they are owed interaction the same way that men are. Even when you consider the difference in the way we flirt or just converse in daily life, there’s not the same aggression and sense of rejection of power that leads to harassment when that engagement is unwanted that’s seen in men.

Before Paul’s head explodes, yes, it is also wrong for women to harass men, for men to harass men or any variation thereof. We’re talking about it in these terms because men are doing it to women far more than any other group.

You bring up that men are at risk on the street, yet neglect to mention that threat is from other men. Confronting those actions solves both problems at once; we don’t have to dismiss women’s concerns to tackle that. Their safety matters as much as men’s, and they should be respected equally.

I think at this point we can all agree on one point: Don't harass women. Just as we can all agree that some women feel flattered by this type of attention, and others hate it. But the definition of harassment is subjective. In conclusion, briefly explain your textbook definition of harassment.

Paul: Actually, I can only agree that no one should harass anyone, not just women, and not just at the hands of blacks and Latinos. I can, though, rely on the dictionary, which says "aggressive pressure or intimidation." Nearly all of what I saw in that video did not qualify.

Defining free speech as harassment is a dangerous, sinister thing to do, especially for profit.

Amani: To put it in simplest terms, street harassment is uninvited and unwanted interaction between strangers that makes the harassee feel annoyed, humiliated or threatened. It’s something that leads to a climate of frustration and fear walking down public streets for too many people. According to a national study it’s something that happens to 65% of women (25% of men) and almost half of the time also involves physical aggression. It’s something we need to work together to stop.

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