DrPatti

This conversation reminds me as an SDA. They quoted Paul that we should not adorn ourselves with gold or silver or precious stones and refused to baptize anyone who wore jewelry--any kind of jewelry--even a wedding ring.

For those who are anti-piercings, let me ask you this:Will I lose my salvation because my ears are pierced?If not, then how is ear-piercing any different from nose-piercing or belly-button piercing?Will my daughter lose hers because she got a small tattoo over her scar where they did a spinal tap on her?

If so, then you are preaching legalism.If not, then you are straining at gnats, and our time could be much better spent preaching the Gospel and extolling the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If this is your true mindset, why are you centered upon such subjects and "trolling" such suggestions, instead of extolling and magnifying the Gospel message yourself?

(Our time on earth is short here, you know, and should be better spent, IOHO.)

This conversation reminds me as an SDA. They quoted Paul that we should not adorn ourselves with gold or silver or precious stones and refused to baptize anyone who wore jewelry--any kind of jewelry--even a wedding ring.

This conversation has nothing to do with legalism. It has to do with what the bible says about the body of a Christian and of adorning ourselves. It has to do with obedience and what would not bring glory to God. You have every right to believe in lip and nose rings and tattoos. But I also have every right to say I believe it is unbiblical and ask questions without being called a legalist for doing so.

--Cut and Paste for reiteration --

For your information, the intent and the purpose of piercings is relevant to any discussion of this issue. By the way, can you tell me what is the intent and the purpose of belly piercings, Lip piercings, nose rings and Tattoos for Christians? Just a question. Are they done out of modesty, or out of a desire to draw attention? Are they done to give glory and honor to the Lord, or are they done to bring glory and honor to one's self? But if you're going to reply that I'm attacking you, avoiding the argument or the like, then don't even bother to reply. We've all been bored by these types of replies "in place of biblical justification" many times before. But if you have something to say, or maybe even perhaps answer the question, then maybe we can have a constructive dialogue rather than just vainly throwing charges back and forth.

Genesis 24:22 When the camels had finished drinking, the man took out a gold nose ring weighing a beka [a] and two gold bracelets weighing ten shekels. 23 Then he asked, "Whose daughter are you? Please tell me, is there room in your father's house for us to spend the night?"

If you read before and after as well this is in refernce to racheal accepting a proposal of marriage to abrahams son, god had told the servant who went to propose for him that answer she would give if she accepted, in acceptance she wore the niose ring and bracletes.

as well if you read this next passage about God talking about his love for his people of isreal what does he mention he gives them? As showing him he loves them as if they were his bride?.... A nose ring. Here is that passage.

Ezekiel 16:10-13 God says, "I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of badger skin; I clothed you with fine linen and covered you with silk. 11 "I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your wrists, and a chain on your neck. 12 "And I put a jewel in your nose, earrings in your ears, and a beautiful crown on your head. 13 "Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing [was of] fine linen, silk, and embroidered cloth. You ate [pastry of] fine flour, honey, and oil. You were exceedingly beautiful, and succeeded to royalty. (NKJV)

if you read my whole post you would have seen these instead of reading part of it, making up your mind and closing your eyes to the rest.

I am not here to predermine rationalizing anythng I am here to show people that what they have to say about God and piercings is wrong, and hopefully open some eyes. To stop misinformation of someones hatred of something being told as if it were Gods word.As Christians we should be always studying and learning and opening our hearts not closemindedly making our own rules and saying they are Gods. When someone first told you eatting pork is against God's will did you decide you liked it and would therefor discredit anyone telling you he says otherwise? No, most people listen and go read it for themselves, realize he did indeed say it and then change their thoughts about it.. Why is piercing such a hard thing for people to do the same with?

You quote me corinthians yet who did Christ himself put in his company and shame the disciples for discriminating against? Hookers and tax collectors, thats who, Christ sat with them, talked with them, loved them. I will not refuse to talk with people that are not Christian, noone needs to convert a Christian and you cant convert a non-Christian by never having anything to do with them.

and i am not teaching droctrine here, I am having a discusision on a supposedly Christian board where I have had nothing but non-Christain judgemental responses and by a bunch or rudel people that will be judged as they have judged. I do not want to be part of this board anymore all I have seen is hypocritical people claiming to be so pure and meanwhile doing nothing but degrading others opinions and refusing to maybe learn something. Nor did I ever say that someones look convert someone, however they have alot to do with getting young teens and troubled people to even actually listen past the first 2 seconds to what you have to say.We are to be seperate people yes, but you are the same as everyone else in wearing pants and you probably own a nice car not a modest falling apart one, and you probably own a nice house not a falling apart shack to be modest in things you own. You cannot apply the rule to one thing and not anotherI am not a young person, actually I have 4 children and even I don't want to talk to any of you, much less would a teenager who already thinks Christians are evil and have nothing good to say, and definately arent even treating their own with Gods love so probably not anyone else. Have fun and God bless I am removing myself from the board.

Tasha

Wow- how really sad is this? This person chose to leave here because she felt judged and unloved by people who are supposed to be the light in the darkness - that is the love of God shines through their lives. I heard from another person while reading through past postings and trying to learn that she too felt judged and she had come here for fellowship. You know they say the Army of God (the Church) is the only army who shoots its own - maybe all too true. I do not have tatoos or body piercings - well I do have pierced ears - does that count? But if the love which Christ has shown to me cannot overcome the appearance of one who has such things who am I? What does I Cor 13 say about such people? Their speech is as sounding gongs and clanging cymbols - just a bunch of noise which cannot be heard over their judgemental attitudes. I must admit that this does not really feel like a warm and welcoming online Christian board but a lot like so many churches I have been in. We are supposed to be better than that. If we disagree on things thats normal - even Paul and Timothy could not agree and had to separate for the sake of the Gospel and their writings were included in the Canon of Scripture so I guess disagreement is not to be unexpected in God's eyes - he has made us all individual. How boring the world would be if we were all cookie-cutter Christians and acted like robots and clones. No - Scripture is very clear on the differences in people and their individual giftings. From things I have shared here on this board I have heard that I might be worshipping a "false" God, not really a true Christian, etc... just because I dont talk the same talk as what you here all expect? Well Jesus didnt either and he ended up being crucified for it so I am not afraid of mere mortals who feel holy and superior, because He wasnt and He lives within me for the past 45 years and has brought me through incredible testings of my faith but I am not turning away because of a group of people who "think" in their own ways and have some different ways of expressing or interpreting. The Body is not about a group of elitist people who have been "chosen" - its about people who share in the wonderful gift of salvation through Jesus Christ by the grace of God and nothing else. We are the Body of Christ. Lets not be afraid to love and embrace our differences - the world is watching and they will know we are Christians by our love. We can all improve in this area everyday.

Matthew 25:35-3635 "For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me."

This is true love that christians should have.

Matthew 25:41-4641"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it or not to one of the least of these, ye did it not for me.46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into eternal life."

What type of love we have is important. It isn't "love" to just pat everyone on the back when they present a doctrine that is not from the Bible and say, "Don't worry about it, God will explain one day, right now let's just love eachother because time is too short to ruffle feathers."

When God shows me truth about His Word this is when I rejoice and feel love and then I want to share it.

>>>Wow- how really sad is this? This person chose to leave here because she felt judged and unloved by people who are supposed to be the light in the darkness - that is the love of God shines through their lives.<<<

..and indeed, many others may choose to leave as well. That's because we have differing views and definitions on what is gracious, loving and compassionate. Personally, I'm not as concerned about people "choosing to leave" as I am about people never hearing the truth in the first place because some Christian was afraid to offend their worldly sensibilities. Sure, Tattooing has become as normal today as buying a pair of sox, but that doesn't mean Christians have to change and conform to the world to accommodate these views. I'm sure someone being the sundoulos here is a lot different than what most Christians have grown to expect. But the condition of the heart is not illustrated in vain platitudes of sympathy for those who have grown close to the world or who are unrepentant. It is illustrated in the joy of seeing someone finally look at themselves honestly and come to truth.

Proverbs 17:2-3

"A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts."

The Lord tries or tests the hearts. So you need have no fear that God missed an opportunity here to enlighten someone. If these Christian people here (like myself) are the judgmental Scribes and Pharisees of our day that you think we are, we will be judged by God's word. For a tree is known by its fruits.

Hebrews 4:12-13

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

You know, it's so easy to say someone is judgmental when they speak bluntly, is not perfect in their presentation, or they disagree strongly. One could even say that your post was judgmental. It takes no effort to respond like that. But judgment won't be by our words saying such things as Predestination, Sovereignty, the sin of conforming to the world, or our imperfect rebuke of erroneous ideas. What form of heart ours is, is judged by God, not by man. What we (as God's people) are to judge is what is right and wrong. And that's not legalism, that's Christian responsibility. I would caution to please endeavor to understand the difference.

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>>>You know they say the Army of God (the Church) is the only army who shoots its own - maybe all too true.<<<

An army indeed, but for which army and what side most "professing" Christians are actually fighting for, is debatable. Whether fighting with and following the Horseman on the white steed who is going forth conquering and to conquer, or for all intents and purposes fighting against him. That is the "real" question.

Revelation 9:15-16

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them."

Personally, I'd say the army of God isn't doing enough shooting or sword waving, but is doing far too much consorting. For the word of God "is" a sword, and it will cut. It is inevitable. I don't consider pandering to faithless, unholy worldly customs and beliefs that are contrary to the tenants of scripture, to be either Christ-like or a demonstration of love. Nor do I consider the faithful going forth with the sword of the spirit, as Christians shooting their own.

...but hey, I'm in the minority, that's just me.

I don't believe that the church today is too judgmental, too strong, or too strict. In fact, I would say it is just the opposite. But you see, that is a vivid illustration of the difference between the two types of Christians within the church. The Kings "of" the earth and the kings who dwell on the earth. Those that are all about self, comfort, compromise, humanistic compassion, and feelings of love, contrasted with those who understand what selflessness is, and what true comfort is, what no compromise is, what true compassion is, and what true agape/charity requires. Love of God is not about making friends by unrighteous inclusion or compromise with the world, it's about love of truth to our neighbors. Having a "real" love for the truth as opposed to humanistic sentimentality. And there is really no other way for a true Christian to speak the truth, but in Agape/Charity. Because the truth is love. That there are those in the church who refuse to receive it in the way it is meant is not really odd, it's to be expected. For all that shimmers is not gold, and all that is painful is not meant to their hurt. It's like the fable of the bird and the cowpie. Likewise, all that claim Christ as their Saviour are not Christians, and all that pine for love, are not those with love. For love is as God defines it, not the world.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-10

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

If we love the truth, we are led of God not to be offended by it, even though we are pricked by it. By the same token, if we won't receive truth, then clearly we do not really Love Truth do we?

In 2nd Thessalonians, these aren't the people of the world refusing to receive the truth because it wasn't given in love, these are the people of the church deceived by false teachers so that they can't recognize the truth anymore. And God tells us unambiguously why they are deceived in the Holy Temple. It is "because" they just simply would not "in love" receive the truth that was spoken to them. Not that it was spoken perfectly, or without love, but that "THEY" didn't love what truth was spoken. And so they would not receive it. That's what people have so twisted about the church, the truth and love. Godís word does need to be spoken perfectly (no one is perfect/i]), it has to be spoken in God's definition of love. i.e., charitably, good-natured, in encouragement to obedience, which so many today call graceless and judgmental. How backward we have become.

Deuteronomy 30:20

"That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."

Love is an integral part of our obedience, not something that is applied to it.

1st John 5:3

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

How would this (God's definition of love) match up with the modern church's definition of Love? I dare say they'd probably call it pharisaical and legalistic if anyone were to bear faithful witness to it.

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>>> What does I Cor 13 say about such people? Their speech is as sounding gongs and clanging cymbols - just a bunch of noise which cannot be heard over their judgemental attitudes.<<<

True. But 1st Corinthians isn't talking about the kind of love the world speaks of, but [agape] love. That is to say, true charitable love wherein we desire for them the same salvation that we have ourselves have received. Love made perfect in God's grace wherein we know, "there but by the grace of God go I." So it's not what 1st Corinthians 13 says about love that is at issue, but what LOVE actually means in God's defining of it. Not what Dr. Phil says love is, but what God says it is. Comparing scripture with scripture. That is what we are in disagreement about. Who are we loving if we teach Christians that worldliness, pride, eschewing correction and rebuke, and walking in darkness is winked at by God? ....that is loving ourselves, not agape love. It's what God calls vanity! Who do we love if we preach that there should be no judgments in the church and we all can just do our own things and believe in going our own personal way? What love is there in a lack of judgment? Is that God's love, or man's love?

Isaiah 59:8-10

"The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.

We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men."

Is it love to let a man grope around blindly in the darkness encouraging him to walk wherever he wants because God is love? Is it love when we won't judge his being in darkness and let him remain unaware and stumble? Or is it true love to take our candle and show him the way wherein he will not stumble and fall? That's the question at issue here today. When God says there in that verse, "there is no judgment in their goings," He is specifically talking about people who do not discern the right from the wrong. People who do not "rightly divide or judge the word of truth." People who think all opinions and beliefs are grace covered and surmise that judgments should never be made against wrong beliefs. That's not Christian, that is decidedly unchristian. Judgments are made all the time and must be made by the righteous. Judge if Murder is wrong, or if Lying wrong, or if Free will is wrong, or filling our bodies with Tattoos or in smoking or in sex before marriage. Yes, judgments should be made by the Christian, and those who claim we shouldn't, don't really understand love nor Christianity at all. When we became a new creature in Christ we were given judgment (Revelation 20) and it changed our lives. When Christ said judge not, He most certainly was not talking about sin, but about other people's salvation.

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>>>...he has made us all individual. How boring the world would be if we were all cookie-cutter Christians and acted like robots and clones.<<<

I wonder what does that comment imply? That Christians can't really come to any absolute truth and so should just accept any doctrine other professed Christians hold as mere "differences of opinion?" I hope not. If so, that is an incorrect conclusion. We are to judge what is a right belief and what is an unbiblical belief. And we are to say so. Moreover, when our beliefs are illustrated from scripture to be unbiblical, we should correct them. ...if we won't, then what right have we to profess love of God and any desire to do "His Will?"

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>>> No - Scripture is very clear on the differences in people and their individual giftings.<<<

Individual gifts, not doctrines. Again, that people are different is not the issue. I really didn't create this forum to be another cookie cutter place where everyone would feel comfortable saying every God awful and unbiblical thing. Nor was it created for Christians to come and justify themselves, or where everyone could feel good about themselves. There are lots of forums around the Net that will accommodate anyone if that's what they seek. But this forum is for people to discuss beliefs and views from the basis of scripture, and determine if they are accurate and in agreement with those scriptures. Of course, not a lot of Christians like this system because it steps on some toes and exposes beliefs to the scrutiny of God's word. ..and I understand that. Everyone is not going to like it here. That's a "GIVEN!" Are we perfect? Of course not.

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>>>The Body is not about a group of elitist people who have been "chosen" - its about people who share in the wonderful gift of salvation through Jesus Christ by the grace of God and nothing else. <<<

If your definition of elite is a "Special or Select" Group (chosen) as the dictionary defines it, then you are wrong again. The Body is about the "elect" people who have been chosen by God. That's not someone's opinion as so many like to believe, that's God plainly speaking. That's the truth of God that the vast majority of professed Christians just can't bear to listen to because it offends their self-esteem. Teachings about the elect, and Predestination, and living in a humbe God glorifying way (without Tattooing), is to the glory of God and is welcomed to be spoken here.

Your quote above is wrong because the elect do share in the wonderful gift of salvation through Jesus Christ by the grace of God alone. Indeed, it's an integral part of the very foundation of our belief. By Grace Alone! What you may not understand is that without being Chosen, without Election, without Predestination, without Grace Alone, there is no gift of salvation. There is only work.

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>>>We are the Body of Christ. Lets not be afraid to love and embrace our differences..<<<

Being afraid has nothing to do with the true Christian not embracing diverse pagan and worldly philosophies like tattooing and morose body piercings that war with God's word of separation from the world's customs. Unless that fear is reverential "fear of God." We would rather embrace truth, than the rationalization of body disfigurement in the name of love. We embrace separation, not conformity to the world. We embrace God's agape love, not worldly affections.

Colossians 3:1-2

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."

How unpalatable is that? Spiritual adornments from heaven or physical ones of the world?

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>>>..the world is watching and they will know we are Christians by our love. We can all improve in this area everyday.<<<

Yes, we can all improve in the area of love. But the world has nothing but contempt for the church, and except God draw one of them, they will not believe one single word of God's love or scripture. So if the world is watching, it is for the opportunity to mock and laugh. But one who is watching the church unto judgment is God. And I can tell you without fear of contradiction, He doesn't like what He is seeing. Will the Christian know they have love by acting so much like the world no one can tell us apart? Because it seems to me that the more Christians act, dress, think and speak like the world, the more Christians there are in the church who say that truth is unloving and judgmental. And the more I hear that if that's the God of the Bible, they want no part of Him, the more I see the church declining. The question then is, what God are they worshipping?

nosce te ipsum"

Peace,Tony Warren"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Thank you for your reply/critique of my posting. I do now understand that this is your site and therefore your forum; however, in order to have a healthy discussion and debate there will certainly be different ideas and interpretations among people engaging in that discussion. Is that hard for you to accept? Some of what I have read on this forum I heartily agree with and other things I could not disagree with more ..........that is the nature of the beast so to say when there is any open dialogue. This has never been about body piercings or tatoos which is so ironic for me seeing as where this dialogue has taken place. (Being the wimp that I am I could never even imagine having a tatoo done ) I will say that I have noticed a very biased slant to the opinions herein expressed by people. By that I mean that if someone disagrees with the emphasis on Reformed theology they are immediately "corrected" to the Reformed way of thinking. I must say I have never seen this level of paranoia on a forum before. Perhaps it has been an error on my own part because coming here I assumed, obviously falsely, that this was a place to fellowship with other Christians and to learn from each other and exchange ideas in a healthy loving environment. That has not been my experience to date but I have no hard feelings about this and I may drop in from time to time to say hello. For now I will stay with people who can love and share in an environment of respectful dialogue. Always remember the freedoms we enjoy in this country that allow for this forum to even exist but so much greater than that, the freedoms we have in Christ Jesus who came to die for us so that we might be redeemed from our depraved state before God. May I also add that Heaven will be a place of complete diversity with one common thread - our eternal worship of the Lamb who was slain for our salvation.

Mr Warren,Perhaps it has been an error on my own part because coming here I assumed, obviously falsely, that this was a place to fellowship with other Christians and to learn from each other and exchange ideas in a healthy loving environment. That has not been my experience to date but I have no hard feelings about this and I may drop in from time to time to say hello. For now I will stay with people who can love and share in an environment of respectful dialogue.

Abbiegirl

Obviously, like most free willers, you didn't hear a single solitary word that Tony said. Not a word! As for myself, I will stay with people who can receive truth and share in an environment of Biblical dialogue in true love. Thank you very much!

So what makes you think I did not hear a word that Mr Warren said? I just don't agree and that is my choice I do believe. But thank you for the new label - "fee-willer" whatever that means! Its a new one on me but whatever... Do I exercise my own free will? Well of course and so do you. Did you choose to leave a posting for me? Yes And did I leave one for you? Yes Well guess what? Those choices were made by our own individual free wills. Is that a news flash to you? Its just common sense to me.

By that I mean that if someone disagrees with the emphasis on Reformed theology

If someone disagrees on what the bible says (not reformed theology) Comparing scriputre with scripture

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they are immediately "corrected" to the Reformed way of thinking

To Gods way of thinking only, what the bible says - not reformed, not Lutheran, not Calvin, not Catholic and so on - No denomination, no great theologian or churches viewpoints are considered when interrupting the scriptures of God

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I must say I have never seen this level of paranoia on a forum before

What does paranoia mean - unrealistic suspicion and mistrust of others, excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

Sorry, this is not true - passionate would be more accurate - expressing intense feeling - and rightfully so if someone says "thus says the Lord when the Lord did not say it" - especially when you don't use scripture to back up what you are saying

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because coming here I assumed, obviously falsely, that this was a place to fellowship with other Christians and to learn from each other and exchange ideas in a healthy loving environment.

You have posted 12 times - and only 1 listed any kind of scripture to back up what you are saying - this forum is for bible/scripture discussions and it is hard to take the word of anyone who comes here and just talks and says what God is saying or means without using some sort of scripture to back it up

When you want to learn what God truly says, the meaning of a scripture, a discussion on a doctrine, this is the best place in the world to be, you can ask, discuss and learn - If you want basic Christian chat, or discussion without using scriptures, other forum usually work best -

I don't think there is anything wrong with the people on this site or the sites purpose at all - I just think you went to a book store looking to buy a watch - you still went to a retail store, but the wrong store for what you wanted to buy

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of one's own interpretation.

Well the first clue is that you still have your judgmental attitude, while pointing the finger at others for being judgmental against unbiblical doctrines. And maybe the second clue was that he gave a biblical definition of true christian concern and love, and you replied by again talking about feelings, and going back to find a forum where there are people who can love. Yeah, I think you did not hear a word Mr. Warren said.

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Do I exercise my own free will? Well of course and so do you. Did you choose to leave a posting for me? Yes And did I leave one for you? Yes Well guess what? Those choices were made by our own individual free wills. Is that a news flash to you? Its just common sense to me.

Maybe free will is common sense. But the truth of God's sovereign will is uncommon. I don't want to take this thread off topic anymore than you already have, because it's supposed to be about tattoos and body piercings. But it seems that you want someone to make you feel good by saying that your views and opinions have merit. Tony can't do that, and I don't blame him. Because he has integrity. Something that is very much lacking these days. Predestination is not Tony's opinion or mine, it's the word of God. So it's not subject to being wrong. You seem to want someone to agree that you've got free will, and he's just not going to do that to you. He's going to tell you point blank that this belief is not true. This belief is a lie of the Devil. I'm sure you probably don't like that, but what else can he say? That it has merit? He doesn't say this doctrinre is untrue because he doesn't like other opinions, he says it because the doctrine of free will is not the truth. And he is not like other Ministers who will smooze you with good feelings about your doctrine or put pretty flowers on them. I happen to agree with that philosophy. But many here do not, so you probably have a lot of sympathetic people here who agree with you about what is loving debate. I'd call it useless debate.

Now back to the thread, "should Christians have tattoos and Body Piercings".

PS, You said you didn't agree. What part of the witness of the word did you not agree with. 2nd John 1:6 or Colossians 3:1-2? Or maybe one of the other scriptures concerning Predestination or the working of God's will.

Leviticus 19:28 You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tatoo any marks upon you: I am the LORDEven though believers today are not under the Old Testament law the fact that there was a command against tattoos should cause us to question.

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God.Can we ask God to bless and use these particular activities for His own good purposes and glory?

1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with decency and propriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;The essential meaning of modesty is not drawing attention to yourself - Tattoos and body piercings are not modest

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have of God, and you are not your own? For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.If our bodies belong to God, we should make sure we have His clear "permission" before we "mark it up" with tattoos or body piercings.

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God.Can we ask God to bless and use these particular activities for His own good purposes and glory?

You know, this verse above says it all, amen? Whatever we do, we "should" be doing to give glory to God. I don't think tattoos, piercings and many other "faddy" things are giving glory to God. A true believer should not be seeking ways to justify their "worldly" lusts. Same thing with dancing. They say that the Bible talks about dancing, so we can dance too. Well, if we dance the way I have seen some people dance, then WHERE is the glory in that? Sheeeesh.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Just wanted to add two more verses. Are the commandments of God supposed to be "grievious" to a true believer? Aren't we supposed to desire the things of God? Then why would a true believer want to do things that would NOT give Him glory? Do we have one foot in the world, and another in the kingdom?