Wednesday, September 14, 2011

Anyone remotely familiar with trans communities/sites/forums is equally familiar with the significant groups, discussions and transmen who admit to having been raped as little girls/young teens. I've never seen any admit that their abuse had anything to do with their desire to transition, in fact one often sees the exact opposite.

Can females of child rape develop GID? Should females raped as children be allowed to transition? Are females of child rape who do transition fake transmen? If "yes" to the last question, tell us what a REAL transman is.

Once again, you triggerhappy Anons miss the point. By "allowed" there is this issue of "First, do no harm" with medical personnel.

So let's turn this around. Should people who believe they don't feel right in their bodies unless they are maimed, be ALLOWED to have those amputations?Should people who don't feel right unless they are doing harm to themselves by cutting themselves or starving themselves be ALLOWED to continue cutting themselves until they die, or starve themselves 'til they die?

Once again, y'all are comparing apples to oranges. People are born women. They should not be ALLOWED to maim themselves just because severe trauma or mental illness makes them think they can somehow be men, and that by becoming men, they are somehow safer, happier, etc. in their bodies.

So, no, in a caring, conscientious society, no, people should not be ALLOWED to grievously harm themselves, esp. at the hands of surgeons who CAN'T EVEN DO what they claim that can; i.e., change someone's sex. Only DNA decides that, and the ONLY things in the universe (so far) that change RNA and DNA are cancer, retroviruses, and chemotherapy.

>>Should people who don't feel right unless they are doing harm to themselves by cutting themselves or starving themselves be ALLOWED to continue cutting themselves until they die, or starve themselves 'til they die?<<

I realize afterward that the "til they die" part actually isn't the point. In our caring society, it is assumed that if people are cutting or starving themselves, they should be helped IMMEDIATELY so they will stop. The "til they die" part isn't even necessary in that decision-making process. We simply agree as a society, that people should not be allowed to maim and starve themselves because that is clearly a sign of mental illness and imbalance. Same goes for wanting to maim oneself to try to become another sex. Just as much a sign of trauma, illness, and imbalance.

And on that note, the distinction between "disallowing a rape victim to transition" and "disallowing a lesbian to practice lesbiansim" is rather LARGE, and I'm sorry you lack the ability to notice these distinctions for yourself.

A lesbian was always a lesbian, duh. A woman who is attracted to other women ALWAYS had the ability to be attracted to other women, hello. You're argument -- in a quite sexist patriarchal way -- implicitly assumes a few other arguments are valid and yet you -- just like any dumb sexist asshole -- believe no proof is required for those assertions.

First you're assuming that someone "becomes" a lesbian as if lesbianism is a PROCESS instead of a state of being which they were born already possessing. Secondly, you're assuming that there is something inherently wrong with lesbianism, which tells us exactly how woman-hating you actually are. Hello.

You hate women but everybody is supposed to ignore how strongly that amount of misogyny would influence your desire to change your gender presentation?

wow, transitioning to an immitation male really is the ultimate in self-loathing.

I never realized how badly they hate themselves. Dear sweet whoever, you can't run fast enough or far enough to ever leave yourself behind. You must make peace with the person you were born as, else you will always be miserable.

Yeah, I've actually seen plenty of mother-starved women become "lesbians" for a short period of time, only to find out that men really turn them on. They are attracted to the comfort of community, to the idea that being gay makes them badass or rebellions, but they really don;t like pussy in the end. These women are always the loudest converts in the beginnning. Watch out for them: they claim that women are safer, gentler, smarter, cooler, blah blah blah. You all have seen it too. They're the ones that disappear from the lesbian scene, only to re-emerge preggers and completely in love with some dude. Don't tell me that people are born gay, because the allure of a safe community is enough to inspire a little pussy-licking in between doses of cock. The sad thing is, being a lesbian won't repair your childhood abuse or neglect, and it won't make you any better of a person.

>>I wonder if I started a blog about Butch Lesbians being trendy and fake, how many people could I get to follow me?<<

I dunno, but what kind of idiot do you have to be to keep following a blog day after day YOU DON'T AGREE WITH AND DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO BUT WHINING?

The truth is, plenty of us lesbians are sick and tired of having transpeople shoved at us. We need our community back, desperately, and we are constantly having to deal with people who AREN'T EVEN LESBIANS.

If you look at lebsian history, you will see that lesbians are constantly taking care of other people. CONSTANTLY. But what do we get for our trouble? We can't even have one damned music festival to ourselves. I for one am sick of constantly taking care of every other social group and class group and people who need kindness and understanding. In case no one has noticed, there is a LESBIAN BREAST CANCER EPIDEMIC going on.

Who takes care of US? Susan G. Komen pretends we don't even exist. The gay male community is too busy being fabulous, post-AIDS. And now, we're having to deal with "lesbians" who were born men, and "men" who demand entry into our community who were born women but now have rudimentary peni. (Hello, old punks who never died!)

So you can whinge about this blog all you want, but who's the idiot who keeps coming here and contributes nothing to the discussion that's edifying in the way of helping women love themselves and take back their bodies and their minds.It ain't like it's Hotel California around here. You can check out any time you like, AND LEAVE.

"So you can whinge about this blog all you want, but who's the idiot who keeps coming here and contributes nothing to the discussion that's edifying in the way of helping women love themselves and take back their bodies and their minds.It ain't like it's Hotel California around here. You can check out any time you like, AND LEAVE."

Sure, except this blog isn't about women at all. It's about transmen. We are coming here because we are being attacked. We come here because lies are being told about our lives, our happiness. We come here because we are offended by your ignorance and prejudice. It's not as if Dirt keeps to her butch/woman/female agenda EVER. She has a personal axe to grind and it is not lost on us that she cares more about transness than she does about women.

okay I'm sorry I called you a dumbfuck. It's just that, that particular principle is very close to another argument (excuse really) used by trans, so I didn't think it was a good idea to use the rebuttal incorrectly.

>>chill baby, it ain't the end of the world. I did said it was minor, hello. But that PRINCIPLE was relevant, you dumbfuck, which is why I corrected you.

Logic requires PRINCIPLES be accurate at all times, not just when you feel up to the task.<<

No, fuck you. You're too stupid to see the simple point was that only a few things in the known universe can change DNA, and cancer is one of them. I happen to know this fact because I had cancer, so double fuck you.

Quite frankly, MOST discussions of attempts at genetic changes include cancer and the chemicals that cause/treat it. So I don't know how any person with even the most basic education could think you'd be able to have a discussion about changing DNA/RNA without including cancer. Unless you were some mealymouthed little tranny wannabe who can only handle discussing such matters in a "positive light", due to their own gynophobia and self hatred.

Aye, Dirt. But the post-modern anti-feminist mind rejects simple answers. Everything must be cleverly complex because academia is for itself, by itself.

Those of us who grew up riding dirtbikes and shooting at cans are solution oriented, and we like our questions and answers to be efficient, hold up in the real world, and proven by time and experience.

I get the feeling a lot of what goes on here and in the "trans community" is as much a generational/class difference as anything else. Generally speaking, poor people don't have time to sit around whining that they need dangly bits to feel better.And those who aren't part of The Narcissistic Generation never learned to obsess about ourselves with this sort of dedication. Simple answers are hard to come by, from a generation of people raised on doublespeak, where cleverness is rewarded over content.

Thank you and while I couldnt agree more with your comment, it is still a discussion worth having even amongst ourselves dont you think? We never know who might happen upon that discussion and glean something life changing from it.

No, fuck you. You're too stupid to see the simple point was that only a few things in the known universe can change DNA, and cancer is one of them. I happen to know this fact because I had cancer, so double fuck you.

Again, the mutations caused by cancer are not healthy mutations. Which is why your analogy doesn't work.

You sound like a particularly stupid and insecure eight year old who can't cope with a minor correction.

If you had cancer I'm sorry, but since you can't cope well with the slightest bit of correction then your claim appears doubtful. Cancer survivors have already learned how to prioritize bad news.

Of course people who have been raped at a young age can be transgender. Same with people who have lost a partner, people with depression, people with autism, short people, tall people, blue people, purple people, etc. I think you've answered your own question at the beginning of this post.

Should females raped as children be allowed to transition?

Anybody who is raped should have access to and be encouraged to get psychological help. It strikes me as a poor life choice to transition whilst in the middle of actively healing from a rape or any other tragedy. But just because a woman was raped once, does that mean we get to spend the rest of her life telling her what she's 'allowed' to do with her body? Does it mean we get to determine for her, what life she would have had without being raped, and 'disallow' anything that strikes us as 'weird'? That seems paternalistic. Do you really think that once a woman is raped, she's 'damaged goods'?

Are females of child rape who do transition fake transmen?

I dunno, what is a 'fake' transman? Isnt being a transman just feeling a desire or need to be male, and then taking steps to be percieved and treated as male? So is a fake trans man somebody who somehow transitions without having the desire to? So how does that even work, how would anybody be a 'fake' transman? If youre going so far as transition, isnt that a pretty clear signal that you're trans?

Or is a fake trans man someone whose desire to transition isn't 'pure' enough? Well, none of our desires are pure. If someone has a severe psychiatric disturbance to the point where they can't make decisions at all, then they would certainly need a lot of help and guidance to transition if they could at all. But on what planet does 'raped as a chld' = 'will not be capable of controlling our own destiny as an adult'? And how is it ours to judge who wants to transition for the 'right' reasons?

The former term is not allowed because radfemlesseps think its specifically devised to be insulting term, rather than descriptive.(Never mind that when a black person calls out a white person for acting out of "white privilege," they view the callout for being white as an attempt to be insulting, and no one in social justice sheds a tear for the white person.)

The latter I'm guessing is because she thinks any reference to it is a derail due to its rarity, rather than an important part of a comprehensive philosophy that integrates edge cases and treats them with equal value, rather than invisibilizing them through generalization as structuralist radical feminism tends to do.

I actually don't think these are simple questions at all, unless one wants to grossly generalize. That doesn't mean there isn't value to asking the questions and letting people arrive at their truths, but I don't know that many people reading your blog actually have the experience or knowledge to provide much other than an opinion which might be based on personal experience.

So, having said that, my opinion is that nobody 'develops' GID. It may be latent, you may not choose (or not be able) to do anything about it, but if you have it, you have it. I also am not aware of any studies or hard facts that support that a larger portion of the transman population was raped as a child than of women without GID. Finally, I don't believe that all women who think they have GID or who think they would be whole if they were men, actually have GID.

Diagnosing GID is a delicate process, during which many potentially uncomfortable questions must be asked. I also believe that a second (even a third!) opinion should be sought as a matter of process, no matter how impatient people might be with this. Because (again according to my opinion) only in a true case of GID is surgery 'healing'. If there is no GID, or if another condition is falsely diagnosed as GID, then I do believe that any surgery would be harmful rather than healing.

"Those of us who grew up riding dirtbikes and shooting at cans are solution oriented, and we like our questions and answers to be efficient, hold up in the real world, and proven by time and experience."

Exactly. That's why sitting around processing gender revealed itself to me to be such bullshit, when a blind man could see that I was trans. Anyone can sit around whining, but a smart person realizes that time is a-wastin' when the desire for male physical attributes is NEVER going to go away. I was solution oriented and I'm so glad I stopped mentally battering myself for what I knew I truly wanted. Time and experience have taught me that mass-culture has a deep-seated hatred for transness reflected everywhere in the media and that this entrenches itself in even the "radical" minds of those who question almost every other kind of prejudice. Given the history of human prejudice influencing the acceptance of certain groups/practices, I have no reason to suspect that we are any more intelligent about these matters than ever before. No human can be trusted to deal objectively with an issue than brings up strong emotions for themselves. The lesbian-feminist thought paradigm cannot be reliably consulted with issues that seem to threaten the very fabric of lesbian-feminist identities. Butches have dealt with such bullshit for so long, and have unjustly had to defend their existences on earth as they are. Unfortunately this does not set the stage for intellectual objectivity when it comes to younger people being able to make different choices with their bodies. I suspect that there are a fair amount of older butches who would have transitioned if they had any amount of support. After all, just because a person does not transition doesn't mean they aren't trans. I'm guessing there is alot of rage and pain around that issue.

I dealt with my true desires in a real world way, after wallowing in the useless quagmire of identity politics, anger, guilt and fear for far too long. After all, I only have one life and I wasn't gonna waste it waiting for everyone to eventually realize that it's okay to be trans.

I see telling the truth as a very valuable currency and I pretty much reserve it for those whose hearts and minds are already open. It kind of depresses me when people can't hear my story because they let their prejudice shape their thoughts. I think I've told enough of my truth to people here. Why don't you tell me your story?

Okay, I have a PhD in Neuroscience and I would just like to contribute THIS to the conversation: poopoopooopooooooopypoopoopoopoopoopoopoopoopoopoopoopoopoopoopydooppooppeepeepeeeeeeeepoopoopoopypants.

I was raped as an adult. And I'm not ashamed. I didn't do anything wrong. And I'm not some helpless damaged victim who needs to be protected from myself. Neither are the survivors of child rape and sexual abuse.

All females are subjected to sexual trauma from an early age. All females are subjected to the sexualized male gaze from childhood on. All female trans-itioning is informed by the desire to escape male harm.

Dirt.. I don't know what you're getting at here. Like GallusMag said, all females are subject to sexual trauma in some form, even if only "mild"- but it all drives female selfloathing which many manifests in so many ways. Including the urge to cast aside womanhood itself.

I'm a survivor of child rape and I'm a lesbian. I know for a fact that I was a lesbian from day 1, and the abuse didn't cause it; but even if it had, I wouldn't want to change.

As for "transition" I don't think it's a valid option no matter what the cause. It's misogynistic and mutilation.

But I don't think we should forget that the aim is to prevent women from self hatred and the male medical machine.. I just find your tone kind of unusual, this time, usually you don't talk about rape in such a way..

It is what was told to me lily, verbatim. Its brutal crudeness gets to the point of the same brutality the male medical machine has done to this woman's vagina when they sewed it shut. I could have easily omitted it yes, but just as pictures are worth a thousand words, words are worth a thousand images, hence the outrage.

"First you're assuming that someone "becomes" a lesbian as if lesbianism is a PROCESS instead of a state of being which they were born already possessing. Secondly, you're assuming that there is something inherently wrong with lesbianism, which tells us exactly how woman-hating you actually are. Hello."

Do you not see the parallels with being trans? First you're assuming someone becomes trans is a PROCESS (which, well, transition is a process, but the state of being mentally was always present and dormant until discovered) instead of a state of being which they were born already possessing. Secondly, you're assuming that there is something inherently wrong with identifying as a man, which tells us exactly how man-hating you actually are. Goodbye.

"All female trans-itioning is informed by the desire to escape male harm."

This statement is 200% idiotic in every sense of the word. This individual truly believes that she has insight to every situation that involves transsexuals that has ever arisen beneath the sun in the history of time, hence her use of the word "all".

The lack of education and general childish presumptuousness here is both sad and laughable.

Any statement like this starting with the word "all" comes from a truly uneducated and ignorant piece of work.

Heck I'll join in on the idiocy:

"All lesbians look like truck drivers because all lesbians are alike and come from the same background, same psychological standpoint, and the exact same life format."

(which, well, transition is a process, but the state of being mentally was always present and dormant until discovered) this is interestingdoes that 'state of being' = being 'male'or being 'trans?'and discovered by whom?

If your primary assumption is that people are born gendered and that there are only two genders, and that those two genders correspond to only two bodies, then you are correct in your own belief system to say that people are born women. It is from this assumption your questions can have merit.

However, if my primary assumption is that there are at minimum 120 sexes, in part because:

Western science has chosen five ways to determine sex: genetic, chromosomal, gonadal, phenotypic (internal), and phenotypic (external) (Wilson and Reiner) and these five determinants can mix and match so that there are a minimum of 120 human sexes.

And as such if my primary assumption is that because there are a minimum of 120 sexes that there are more than two bodies (which I do believe), and if gender derived in an essential fashion from bodies (which is up for debate) then I would be correct in saying that not all people are born men and women. This is not to say that just because I’ve cited some sources that I am “right”. It simply gives insight into a few reasons I believe the way that I do, and why our belief systems differ in regards to sex and gender.)

(If you would like to leave western science and go elsewhere to define the body, you will be able to find one that better suits your primary assumption, and also many others that do not. If you do not wish to utilize science and instead wish to utilize religion or spirituality to justify your belief system, likewise some will confirm your beliefs and others will disconfirm them).

One of my assumptions is that we live in a highly intersubjective social world where concepts like "gender" and "sex" are up for grabs and justifiable even as those justifications contradict. This is why so many people decry what you insist, and vice versa.

In response to Dirt's request that people define what a real transman means to them, I am posing the counter request to define a real woman. I will try to be as specific as possible below in the parameters of my request:

Because there are various perspectives and beliefs about what constitutes any given gender, I want to know what Dirt's criteria is for a "real" woman? Please be as specific as possible because I would like to invite people to debate this definition.

In addition, if you are using a science or a spiritual belief, etc. please cite this as specifically as possible (ie if it is goddess worship please say which one) so that we can correctly identify without mis-assumption what you consider to be an authority or multiple authorities on the matter and by that I mean a source you consider trustworthy.

I hope that this will be a friendly debate, or at least not one based on inflammatory rhetoric and personal attacks towards Dirt.

I have posted multiple times now. I hope that is alright? I find myself intellectually and emotionally stimulated by the content of the post and the comments. I am quite inspired to engage at the moment.

The point was not to give or deny a justification for medical intervention. Those approving medical interventions have written various books about it and there are various policies with which I may or may not agree and vice versa.

I wanted to make/share sense of how some people could differ in their conclusions as to this matter of medical intervention and even of the existence of the identity.

Rights to or denial of medical interventions are justified in terms of how we think, feel, experience, and talk about gender-as-sex, gender-as-identity, gender-as-communicative interaction, etc. What we believe about these things inform the values of "it is (sometimes/always/never) right" "it is (...) wrong".

Just as some belief systems contain assumptions that render all medical interventions morally untenable, and others that contain assumptions permitting, well, a lot of medical intervention.

People will do what they will with information, however, a narrower perspective on the part of any person could limit their ability to form opinions about right and wrong and who gets to speak for whom.

George Bush agrees with anon that intellectualism is a bad thing. In fact, several people throughout history who wished to suppress the exchange of ideas that ran counter to a ruling hegemony have claimed likewise.

And IF those dykes lives have changed because of exposure to MORE information... then that could suggests a lot. (my head hurts to think that someone could imply that more education is a bad thing.)

Anyhow, dykes aren't the only ones to write gender theory, though that idea was vehemently espoused as a counter strategy to inhibit the cohesiveness of the second and third waves of feminism.

should child rape survivors be allowed to work with children since it is a known fact that most rapists were once victims?

as stated should child rape victims be allowed to be lesbian?

most child rape victims have residual side effects when they grow up.. Should they be allowed to be nurses or care takers? Should the be allowed to marry.

You are such a fool Lynn. Such a fool. The last time I checked dictatorship was not thought well of in this country and thank goodness people are starting to see how shallow, bigoted and transphobic you truly are.

But we are starting to see through you. This is designed to push buttons and stir shit. Nothing more and nothing less.

This is one more attack on the already wounded. You hate abuse survivors as much as you hate transgendered people, don't you?

Should females raped as children be allowed to transition? Are females of child rape who do transition fake transmen?

Dirt, this is another form of exploitation and a form of abuse all in itself you are doing here. I have said it before and I will say it again. YOU are an ABUSER in every sense onf the word.

There was a movie on the other night on the family channel regarding Cyber Bullies. I believe you fit the criteria for a Cyber Bully in every aspect. Words do hurt.. I will be glad when the internet laws catch up with the irresponsible usage of the web.

this place gives me the wiggins. its like they really believe women are so completely helpless and without agency that they gotta go get military on everyone's ass who dares step outta line about what to do with their own bodies! No need for patriarchy when you've got this dedicated troop to putcha under the boot(here, this makeup will be good for you, now sit there like a good little doll and let dirt'n company tell you what good lil girls are supposed to do...OMFG are you fucking serious?

A lot of the comments people are making on here about how "women" are so unable to make their own choices fits nicely into the "men should rule over women" deck of cards.

are people not comprehending the significance of their own arguments? this stuff's scary ass shit!

and hey, if getting raped by a man makes me wanna be like him (wow...there's some f'd up logic, and if Dirt's never been raped then only women who aren't raped know how to be women and damn, that makes men pretty powerful again..) and getting raped by a woman? What does that make me wanna be? Also a man? a lesbian? or you gonna tell me women can't rape other women and men/girls and boys? there is no right answer to what does or doesn't happen to a "girl" who identifies as trans except to be dumped on by Dirt'n her trolly little dirtbags.

oh, no not educated dykes!!! god forbid people who study gender talk about it!! god forbid those people who annoyed me in class (because they got it and i didn't) start coming in here and sounding intelligent!!

It's pretty impossible for me to believe this sack of crap website is for real. reminds me of christwire.com a total parody website that is supposedly run by christians but isn't and just exists to goad people into believing its real. At least Onion news is funny when it drives a parody.

I wasn't implying that education is a bad thing at all.Maybe I should have added 'self-righteous' to my descriptors. I am referring to what was a particular type of college lesbian, the type that did seem prone to accepting queer theory as reality and, these days, transitioning, even though the latter has so much basis in something like 'magic.'

re: queer/gender theory, 6:26 they 'got it?' and I didn't?It's my belief that there is nothing there to 'get.'I've been non-'gender'-conforming since childhood but never thought any stupid theory or over-pathologizing necessary.

"Should people who don't feel right unless they are doing harm to themselves by cutting themselves or starving themselves be ALLOWED to continue cutting themselves until they die, or starve themselves 'til they die?"

It is their choice. They should be shown that this is one choice of as many as there actually are, and then if they choose to continue, why the fuck not?