Economic Game Theory Support For Male Relationship Coyness

A reader with an active mind sends along his proposition, based on the principles of economic game theory, that men should never pursue relationships, even if they ultimately want a relationship or benefit from a relationship.

Conclusion: a man should only pursue commitment-free sex, even if he benefits from a relationship. This is especially true if he approaches or chases.

The famous Pascal Wager suggests everyone should believe in God since atheism costs the same as faith, but only believers share in upside. Technically, this sort of approach is known as game theory, which is ironic since we’re talking about game. In economics and politics, game theory is used to make decisions with uncertain information.

In a simple world, a guy has a partner, or he doesn’t and he’s looking for commitment or he’s not. Therefore, he’s faced with decision A, B, C, or D. These decisions roughly correspond to what the seduction community calls frames.

Based on conventional wisdom, a woman should prefer a guy with decision A, over a guy with decision B, over a guy with decision C, over a guy with a decision D. Guy A is a single guy looking to be a family man, what more can women want? Guy B, C, D all seem like players, but at least guy B will give her the comfort of a relationship, or said differently, going from one alpha to another. There’s no apparent upside to guy D.

That said, if each guy adopts the above frame, what does it say about each man’s dating outlook?

guy A: he’s offering commitment, which means he expects less attractive choices in the future (girl conclusion: he should aim lower than me)

guy B: he is incapable of commitment

guy C: he expects to at least date girls like me, yet it is uncertain if he can date anyone better than me

guy D: he’s been preselected, and it is certain his current girl is better than me (girl conclusion: I’m not in his league)

Guy B is an interesting case, but I don’t rate him highly since guy B communicates to the woman he’s incapable of commitment, which I think reduces his long-term upside. Women want to extract commitment from a worthy man, but she knows she can’t get it from guy B. That said, he’s better than desperate guy A.

I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with chasing or approaching if the guy only has sex on his mind. It seems chasing becomes counter-productive when a relationship is the goal. It’s not clear what this framework says about direct vs indirect game, but it would seem guy D would naturally communicates via indirect game whereas guy C would have the option of direct or indirect game. I would also think guy D is limited to don’t chase game.

guy C: indirect or direct game; chase or don’t chase game

guy D: indirect only; don’t chase game only

If guy D is the highest value guy, the only way you’ll look like him is if you use a combination of indirect-don’t chase game. That said, guy C will have a higher notch count. Guy D will be able to do more with his girls than guy C will, physically and emotionally.

You can also simulate a “seek no commitment” outlook by treating the woman poorly.

An excellent analysis which backs up not only the personal observations and experiences of your humble Chateau hosts, but also the science which is slowly unraveling the mystery of why the most marketable chicks dig aloof jerks.

You could call this economic game theory analysis Relationship Coyness Game. The female analogue of male relationship coyness game is sexual coyness game. A man should be as insufferably, exquisitely coy about his relationship intentions as the typical woman is insufferably, exquisitely coy about her sexual intentions. A man who follows this protocol brings balance to the force; a man who jettisons his duty to answer female sexual coyness with equal relationship coyness is a feeble manboob who has made love more often to couch creases than to women.

If this game theoretic analysis has merit, then the indirect approach with muted intentions coupled with a studied aloofness to furthering the progress of any resulting relationship is the ideal strategy for most men who wish to make themselves as desirable as possible to the maximum number of high value (read: hot) women, given the constraints placed on them by their objective status or genetic endowment and the availability of any serious male competition.

And, in support of the game theory take on seduction, the women I have dated who have been the most exasperatingly, head over heels, obsessed with me have been those women I dragged my feet with the most. In contrast, the women I went out of my way to assure them of my relationship intentions were those women who perplexingly (to me, at the time) assumed the role of the foot-dragging man.

If you, as a man of stout penis, DO NOT seek a relationship, you gain nothing, and possibly hurt your chances, if you tell women that you are interested in a relationship, or if you behave as if your goal is a committed relationship. You are better off aligning your behavior with your true intentions.

If you, as a man of stout heart, DO seek a relationship, you STILL gain nothing, and possibly hurt your chances, if you act with the intention of committing long-term to the women you wish to bed. You are better off behaving exactly as the no-commitment-man above, and basically concealing your relationship intentions. This strategy will invoke a paradox of the female mind, wherein any relationship is more likely to develop under auspices of uncertainty and male coyness that are so thrilling to women’s senses and so fulfilling to women’s hypergamous desires for high(er) value mates.

Best case scenario for men who can’t help but fawn over women with promises of commitment and marriage is that their supplication will not push the girl away. But neither will it draw her much closer, at least not during the critical beginning stages of the dating trajectory. The most likely scenario is that she will come to devalue the man who readily promises the one treasure he has to offer at his disposal: male commitment. And once he is devalued in her mind, it’s a few short hamster rationalizations to suffering the indignity of getting his niceguy ass dumped for being “too nice”.

So far, so good. But… I think where this game theoretic analysis breaks down is at the extremes. For instance, a man who is much higher value than the woman he wishes to meet, or the woman he is already fucking, can afford to liberally promise vows of commitment. His revealed commitment intentions will allay a lower value woman’s feelings of inadequacy. Furthermore, a woman in such an arrangement feels no exigency to “chase” an aloof man as practical proof of his alpha male worth, because the higher status of her partner is so obvious to her. Of course, this just begs the question of why a high value man would bother settling for dating much lower value women. I guess some guys don’t mind lower quality sex if it means zero headaches and drama.

I wonder what mood-affiliated economist Cheap Chalupas thinks of all this? And then I wonder why I love taunting that guy so much.

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Ok but what about if I wanna bang “taken” girls? I have this girl in my class who lives with her bf. I just wanna bang her, she does not need to leave him if she does, great! I dont wanna get beat up (again)

so how should one handle this? Super duper, black ops indirect? (she is a Russian immigrant) or go direct, since you know she has a boyfriend?

i ask this because thats a girl who is already in a committed relationship and is therefore have no need for another “provider” or another male, if you will (given he makes her “happy”) but then what would be her incentive in letting me defile her holes? I am still under the impression that i must be what is missing in her boyfriend.

Tell her you have a girlfriend. Then it’s okay for her to cheat on her boyfriend because you’re cheating on your girlfriend and don’t feel bad about it, so you aren’t judging her and she won’t feel bad about cheating on her boyfriend. She’ll also know that you won’t get clingy and fuck her relationship up with her boyfriend because you already have a girlfriend, so you’re automatically 100% in the “just casual sex” relationship zone.

I’ve had a framed photograph of my GF on my nightstand for almost a year now and it’s actually helped me lay taken girls (“ya, I’m taken too, but we’re out of the honeymoon stage and our sex life has kind of died down so she knows that I play around on my own time because we both know it’s natural to eventually want to explore sex with other people, you know what I mean?”) and set up a casual fuckbuddy frame (“sorry, no dates, I already have a girlfriend and I love her, but god you turn me on, we should do this again sometime”)…which I’m sure is the opposite effect of what she expected giving me the photograph would do lol

As soon as a girl tells me she has a boyfriend I mention being in an open relationship. The girl is always cheating because she doesn’t have an open relationship, but she feels free to cheat with me because she knows I won’t judge her.

I’ve actually told a couple girls “If you break up with your BF, you will never hear from me again.” because I don’t want them to break up with their BF thinking they’re going to seriously date me (it happens and it fucks the dynamic up and creates the “Ultimatum” where I have to either date her or she leaves).

Well I was posting more for other guys reading this in similar situations because you in particular are going to fuck it up, I can tell you that just from your posts lol No offense, it’s just you’re shitting where you eat, which is going to blow up in your face for sure.

Have you even talked to her yet? Do you know anything about how she feels about her boyfriend? Do you guys even have a flirty vibe together? Do you know what, about her boyfriend, she’s unsatisfied with? Have you and her hung out together alone at all? Can you get other girls? Why are you going after a girl in your class that you know is not only taken but LIVING with the guy she’s with? Why are you risking getting your ass kicked by her boyfriend? Do you have other girls? Can you get other girls?

I’ve addressed this and have had several agree with my idea. You have to find a backdoor.

First things first: if a woman is taking to you regularly, she’s already looking for a way out of her relationship or at least a vacation. Women who are really into their guys will shut you down asap.

That said, the phone works here if she lives alone or with roomates. Do a late nite convo or two to find out why she feels her b/f is coming up short. Usually it’s that it’s not “hot.” All girls have a pervy side — play on that. When you start discussing things like pervy porn you and her find on the internet wait for her to say something like “I could never discuss this with my b/f!” Using the pervy sex as your bait, that’s when you reel her in.

Results may vary; use your own judgement as to what her boundaries are. But I will say, I have found quite a few women are into S&M and will not discuss it or do it with “respectable” b/f’s but will mess with it when it comes to a-hole players. This goes for watching the kind of porn she heard about but never sees too. Invite her over to watch the stuff, then enjoy the ride.

Just don’t go riding in expecting to be the white knight who is gonna save her from Mr. Boring. That never works. She already has Mr. Boring. You need to be Mr. German Porn Guy.

Kinkiest sex I’ve had has been with taken girls because they don’t want to risk scaring off their long-term investments/providers with their fucked up fantasies and once they find a safe non-judgemental sexual guy to let loose with, the flood-gates of sexual depravity open wide.

A single girl will hold back a bit because you’re technically potentially a possible long-term partner, so especially if you’re awesome in other categories (like being rich) she’s subconsciously trying to avoid triggering the Madonna/whore complex she worries you might have, and risking not being in the running for being your girlfriend.

This is also why massively disqualifying yourself as a Provider is key. I purposely let my place get messy instead of cleaning it up for when girls come over and leave a condom wrapper on the ground etc. If I had a 6-figure job, I would lie and tell girls I work at McDonald’s. If I had a car I would tell girls I don’t.

When you’re awesome and charismatic and attractive to a girl (aka you have Game) but she can’t categorize you as a Provider because as far as she can tell you have too many downsides to be anything “serious” (aka she thinks you’re a go-nowhere bum with no potential), she doesn’t care about whether you think she’s a slut or not and you unlock freakier sex.

1) It makes you easier to Google. :P Some of the shit I do, I don’t want a girl to be able to type in “CityName, ExcitingJob, YaReally” and be like “oh look, there’s the 3 businesses he started up. He did me in the bum and never called me back so I’m going to fuck up his professional reputation because I’m a crazy bitch! And maybe I’ll show up at his office!”

2) It’s easier. If I seem like a shitty provider, I only have to put in minimal effort to come off like a player, because my general lifestyle (to her) says “not a provider”. If I seem like an amazing provider, I have to put more work into making it clear that I’m a player, because my general lifestyle (to her) says “this guy would be a great provider if you could just convince him to settle down with you”.

3) It also helps re-enforce in my head that that shit doesn’t matter. A guy who learns to attach his success with women to his fancy car and mega mansion, if he loses them or doesn’t have a way to demonstrate them, can lose his confidence because he doesn’t have reference experiences of getting girls without that stuff so he can feel inadequete in terms of women until he has them. I could be rich, 6-packed, and live in a mansion or I could be poor, fat, and live in my parents’ basement and I would have the same confidence with women.

Note that there are guys that wouldn’t be affected by that (generally guys who had success with women before becoming rich, VS the type that was rich before they were successful with women), but I’m talking in generalities and my own mindset since you asked.

4) Because I re-enforce that mindset, anything I do in terms of earning money, working out, buying a fancy car, etc. I do 100% for myself because I’m purposely not using it to try to get girls. I could be sitting on a pile of money, but that money would be earned because I wanted it, not because I hoped it would get me girls, which is the unfortunate mindset most Betas running the rat race and hitting the gym daily come from. “If I just get 2% less body fat maybe I’ll get a girlfriend!! :'( :'(”

RE: 1) If you did something to make her mad, then she would probably google you whether she thought you were high status or not. Girls google guys that they find attractive, and want to know more about you.

I don’t really have anything to say about any of your other points; they all make sense to me. I think it is interesting that you think that all those guys that are going to the gym to lose weight are beta. This site has suggested several times that going to the gym, esp. to lift weights, will help you get women because you bulk up, and look more like the protector/provider. However, I think that a lot of the guys who take the gym stuff sooooo seriously are beta. No one is going to want to just be with you if you are a spandex-wearing, grunting-while-lifting, dropping-the-weights-loudly tool.

Game theory matrixes do not look like that. You line up the two
plaryers’ choices, one set on each axis. Typically, the games
studied are “zero-sum”, i.e. positive numbers show what A wins from B, and negative numbers the opposite. If not “zero sum” you use two matrixes or put two numbers in each cell, showing what A and B gets, respectively.

I stopped reading this post because “the game theory” presented showed a negative understanding of game theory. Choices aren’t represented on a matrix; payoffs are. Specifically the payoffs to two or more players. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

This is amply demonstrated by the idiot side of his idiot-savant character: Savant in SMP theory, but earnest idiot in politics believing that one one-axis dichotomy (libtard vs. conservative) offers a framework for political thought, much like the songwriting genius Neil Young believes embarrassingly in a car that can go forever without refueling.

Simple black/white thinking is a result of the very fabric of the American political system – it always boils down to two parties, two options. So technically, yes, there is only the conservative-liberal dichotomy on which political thought can be based.

Wouldn’t it be better if we had a parliamentary system like they have in the UK? I am starting to see this as a choice. The country is racing left, and it’s quite possible conservatives are going to be in the minority from now on. That means our values will not be represented. However, in a parliamentary system many times the dominate party in order to form a majority has to strike deals with minor parties. So if we had 4 or 5 parties who broke off from the Democrats or the Republicans representing different ideologies from the retarded two, it might help us get some of what we want. At least we won’t vote for their idiotic polices and create an impasse (???)

“And, in support of the game theory take on seduction, the women I have dated who have been the most exasperatingly, head over heels, obsessed with me have been those women I dragged my feet with the most.”

True that. The goal should then be to remind yourself of those behaviors you did with the girls you weren’t crazy about (but were crazy about you) and use those on the girls you are crazy about. Fake it until you make it.

What are the best ways to signal to a girl that you are dragging your feet in order to get her crazy about you?

I would like to hear from the experienced commenters on some ways to communicate this to your woman. It’s easy to do with the ones you don’t actually want to be with so there is probably a well of information we could draw upon and use that on the higher-value chicks we think are worth pursuing.

With Girls like that I have:

1) Called them after midnight on a THUR, FRI, or SAT and let her think she was a booty-call
2) Try not to bring her around your group of friends
3) Never call to check up or see how she’s doing.
4) ???

Communicate it through your spiritual existence. Gravity. Increase the intensity and concentration of your internal (masculine) energy. (What YOU want; NOT what the feminine imperative wants.) That is the mammalian way. That is what attracts mammalian females. That is what “game” ultimately distills to. Try it at a club or bar: the more intense and concentrated your spiritual self, the more girls will approach, as does (female deer) do during rutting season. The PUA approach is a facsimile of biology, at its core the exact opposite of what actually attracts females. Go through the PUA experience if that is your path, but realize that in the end, it is biology, not psychology, that ultimately gets the lay.

lol I always wonder what guys like you look like at the “club or bar” being your concentrated spiritual self waiting for girls to approach you looks like.

No offense or anything, but like, do you just stare at the wall in front of you intensely increasing the concentration of your internal gravity for 4 hours till the ugly lights come on at last call? lol

The PUA approach involves being fun and outgoing and social, which is why people are at bars and clubs to begin with. But hey, keep doing your thing if it works for ya!

Yo YaReally, here is the document I put together. It’s just a compilation of your comments over at CH & Rational Male. Oh, I also got the stuff from your debate over at HookingUpSmart. Noobs need to read this as required reading.

It’s not just for noobs, Besides this blog, YaReally’s contributions, more than anything else, are what made things start to sink in deep for me after reading all the game-related stuff I could get my hands on for a couple of years. The YaReally Composium is pure gold.

I look pretty normal, only perhaps a bit more focused on what matters in my life than the next guy.

“being fun and outgoing and social” is great if you are running a non-profit organization. For others, profit is sufficient.

“No offense or anything, but like, do you just stare at the wall in front of you intensely increasing the concentration of your internal gravity for 4 hours till the ugly lights come on at last call? lol”

If that were the case, I wouldn’t be “out.” I think this is generally a point of division between high value males and PUAs. I don’t go “out” to randomly meet females. That’s certainly one approach, and with refined closing skills one that can be profitable. However, it’s much easier to ACTUALLY be a high value male who has females flowing into his life, and then to select from that flow… like grizzlys poaching salmon.

Specific example: when “out” with your friends, rather than having your attention focused on females circling the watering hole, focus your attention on the conversation that you’re having with your friend. That concentrated (masculine) energy will pull females to you.

If I’m “out,” it’s because I have a purpose for being out… like a date, or social business lubrication, or spending time with my friends. Females are secondary. (That wasn’t always the case, so I understand where guys are coming from.) In general, maintaining energetic focus on one’s personal path (mission) is more attractive to females than one-off tactics or gambits. The one-offs work, no doubt; but can you build a life from them? Think not.

Typically, I leave with the blessed female before midnight. Not difficult, but your energy must be about YOU, and NOT about females.

By all means, strive for more than you were handed. That’s kind of the point of this whole discussion. Pretty sure I don’t “talk shit” about anyone but you, and that’s because you feel entitled to talk shit to this community.

– never meet or ask about her friends, don’t even remember their names

– never EVER meet or ask about her family, don’t even remember their names

– never go to her work functions (like an office xmas party, tell her you’re busy with something that night, but that she should txt you when the party gets boring so you can meet up later and check her out all done up)

– never go on dates, out for food, etc. (unless you’ve just banged and you’re getting breakfast together)

– only see her once a week, twice absolute max if she’s a good girl, but then throw in a couple weeks of not seeing her here and there

– make every conversation sexual, you’re not the guy she talks about her new puppydog with or complains about work and how Jenny at the office is such a bitch because such and such, she can talk to her friends or asexual orbiters about that stuff, your relationship only exists in a sexual context

– don’t add her to Facebook, don’t post on her wall/photos, etc.

– don’t reply to every txt

– txt her drunk

– don’t invite her out with your friends, and if you happen to run into her when you’re out, spend minimal time with her until later in the night when you’re going to take her home

– never go to see her, make her come to see you (I don’t have a car, which actually works in my favor lol). Part of this is so that she always feels like she’s the guest in your world (ie – she’s expendable), and part of it is because when you go to a girl’s place and into her bedroom she wants to share “her world” with you and now you’re stuck looking at her scrapbook of her and her friends from high school and listening to her favorite CD and blah blah which is all super but it creates too much of a bond and will make her clingy.

– don’t show her your “stuff”…if she notices pictures on your wall or asks about shit around your bedroom, give a brief answer/story, but don’t voluntarily share “your world” with her. Don’t build that bond where she knows you.

– avoid giving her much personal info. Don’t tell her your last name if you can avoid it. Don’t tell her what you do for a living, or at least be vague about it. Don’t tell her where you work. Don’t tell her about your friends, family, personal problems, etc.

– when she shows up, fuck her immediately. Look her up and down slowly and sexually as soon as you see her, and say hello by pinning her against the wall and making out with her. Don’t sit around watching movies and cooking dinner together etc. You CAN do that, but I don’t recommend it and if you do it, do it in exteremely small doses. If you “just use her for sex” 6 times in a month, and one of those times you have a nice evening dinner, that’s not an instant death blow. She’ll feel like there’s potential and start thinking about you as a boyfriend, but as long as after that is another month of just sex, you might be alright. But if you have 4 dinner/movie evenings together in a month, you are headed to boyfriend territory.

– lots more I can’t think of off the top of my head lol I’ve been doing this a while so most of this is pretty natural/sub-conscious to me now.

The main frame you want to be coming from, and all these things re-enforce, is:

Hanging out with me is escaping to a fantasy world of sex. I’m her dirty little secret txting her sexual things while she’s at work surrounded by people who think she’s an innocent angel. I’m her escape from another boring night with her insignificant other. I’m not her friend, I don’t care about her life and don’t want her to care about mine, all I exist for is to whisk her away on a sexual adventure where she can forget about all the bullshit of her real day to day life and let loose all her fantasies and desires for a few hours and then return to the “real world”.

When you start meeting her friends, watching movies together, going for dinner, listening to her work problems, etc. you stop being that escape and you become a part of her “real world” that she then has to juggle and manage and fit into the puzzle of her life. You want to not even be a part of that puzzle, you’re the exception, the escape from that puzzle.

And the main thing I’ve found with casual fuckbuddy relationships is that it’s basically like a roll of toilet paper lol At the end of that roll is “the Ultimatum” where she’s attached to you and the pain of not being in an actual boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with you outweighs the pleasure of you two hooking up and she has to force you into the “Either we’re BF/GF or I can’t see you anymore” Ultimatum.

Now the stuff I list up above takes, say, one square of toilet paper at a time off the roll. But when you, say, invite her over and make her dinner and watch a movie together, even if it’s followed by epic sex, you’ve just yanked that roll of toilet paper and like 5 or 6 sheets came off. If you pull back to just sex stuff, that’s cool, you’re back to just one paper at a time, but the damage has been done in terms of the length of the roll. If you yank a handful of sheets at a time too frequently, the stuff up above starts being 2 or 3 sheets at a time instead of just one because you’ve fucked with the casual dynamic too much.

There are anomalies of course, like some girls are extra large rolls of paper. And you can reset the roll in certain circumstances. And some things you do will yank more paper off than others, but basically the thing to keep in mind is that you can’t go backward and put paper back ON the roll, so understand that every action you take is bringing you closer to the end of the roll and The Ultimatum.

This has been my experience, at least lol

This is also why I roll my eyes at guys who want to have a girlfriend but don’t want to “be obsessed with sex” and try to fuck a girl right away. It’s SO easy to turn a girl you’re fucking into a girlfriend. You just do some shit that yanks the fuck off that roll (see her more than once a week, do something nice for her after treating her like shit for a while, etc. etc.) and jump right to the Ultimatum. Done, easy, enjoy. The hard part is keeping things CASUAL without them ending lol

This attitude shift occurring throughout male-dome will turn the tide: “Of course, this just begs the question of why a high value man would bother settling for dating much lower value women.” Let them rot.

She’ll bring it up, and you should trust that you’re high value enough that of COURSE she’ll bring it up.

Then you can just make it seem like it’s a tough internal battle blah blah “you know, I like being single, I’ve been single for a while and it’s been a blast…but lately when I’m out and I meet other girls, I find myself comparing them to you and I’m just kind of like “meh…this girl’s boring.” and wondering what you’re up to. It’s really weird, it’s like you’ve hijacked my brain…I don’t know what to think about that yet (etc. etc.)” (“brain hijack” routines are classic Mystery Method)

Make her pay to get you drunk so you open up about topics like this. Thus, you maintain control of the relationship and there is plausible denial that “you were just drunk and emotional” so it keeps her hamster spinning.

Is there anywhere on the internet that women can go for realistic advice? Like how heartiste tells men how to get sex from girls, how does a woman get 100% commitment from her man and stop him from cheating? The love/romance/relationship advice out there for women is complete 100% total stupid bulls***! I wish there was something straightforward like here.

[Heartiste: A woman has to make herself indispensable to her man. How so? Let’s review.
1. Your looks matter.
Yes, this is obvious, but you’d be surprised how many women live their lives like their looks are not the most important contributing factor to the happiness of their lovers. This means, in practice, stay think or get thin if you aren’t already. It means avoiding overtanning. It means eating right (which usually means cooking at home). And it means dressing well, even on those lazy weekends when you want to slum it in sweatpants and baggy tees.
2. Fight aging.
Women get old and unattractive. This is a reality of life and I’m not going to butter your bread by telling you the wall is not inevitable. But you can do your best to minimize the impact of aging. For instance, staying thin will put you leagues ahead of other older women who have almost all lost their figures. An older slender woman has made herself a valuable commodity among older men. Also, lift weights. Muscle tone is the greatest natural anti-aging remedy.
3. Stay sexy and interested in sex.
You can keep your man’s focus on you if you give him the sex he needs, and give it to him with gusto. Many men stray because their wives have lost interest in banging the shit out of them. A drained ballsack is a philanderer’s worst enemy.
4. Be as feminine as you can be.
Men are wired to want to cherish and protect soft, vulnerable, feminine women. If you make more money than him, act like you make less. If you have a higher status job, find inventive ways to praise him for his work while lamenting the toll your work takes on you. You can exert some control over how much your man’s eyes are prone to stray by making him feel like you couldn’t survive without him. Men love to feel loved for their power and dominance. Women love to love powerful and dominant men. Be that woman.

Heartiste is right…if there is a true fountain of youth out there, it’s toning your muscles for women and lifting heavier weights for men. Do that and the other three things will become immensely easier. You’ll look better, think better, and be more horny.

I’ll tell you this…the best compliment I ever got from a woman was “You lead well”. Men like compliments when we earn them too.

I eat very well and keep my weight low but I don’t exercise and I am not toned and I am skinny-fat. I guess I should start to exercise but I hate exercising. I already do the other things but my husband cheats on me anyways. He has cheated throughout our entire relationship. I was pretty and popular when I was a teenager and he cheated even then, when we weren’t even married yet, but I have spent almost the entire marriage in pregnancy and have become insecure about the way I look now. It is hard to find nice fitting clothing when my body is always changing with the different stages of pregnancy. And my husband never gives me money to buy new clothes or any beauty type stuff. I do not work and spend my time keeping the home, and I have no access to any money of my own at all. I’m at a complete loss what to do because the stupid girls he runs around with probably have all kinds of money to spend on nice clothes, makeup, hairstyles, etc to make themselves look pretty. And he does not want me to do things to help me get money. Even small things like babysitting the children of other neighborhood people, he does not want me to do. He is mean to me and insensitive to my problems. Most of the time if I complain about things he won’t take seriously anything I say and just laughs at me. Advice from other women is to leave him and have more respect for myself, advice from men is similar. But I could never. I have never been able to get any kind of straightforward or realistic advice from anywhere. I am young still (mid 20s) but very self conscious of not being the same as I was in my teens, and afraid of myself getting worse and worse as time goes on. I still feel more fulfilled than friends my age who are single and slutting it up, as well as friends older than me who are married to ‘nice,’ ‘good’ men.

There is nothing you can do to stop him cheating. You could be Helen of Troy and it wouldn’t make a difference. Look at Tiger Woods and look at his supermodel wife. The only thing that might slow down the husband sexing is some type of religious conversion. That’s actually one of the most powerful events that can bring about changes in the person’s core makeup. I’m talking about the spiritual aspects of it, I’m talking about the bio chemical changes that happen that allow a sweeping change.

Notice at the part for Jung’s AA Influence:
“Wilson continued the letter by reminding Jung of what he had “frankly told [Roland H.] of his hopelessness,” that he was beyond medical or psychiatric help. Wilson wrote: “This candid and humble statement of yours was beyond doubt the first foundation stone upon which our society has since been built.” When Roland H. had asked Jung if there was any hope for him Jung “told him that there might be, provided he could become the subject of a spiritual or religious experience – in short, a genuine conversion.” Wilson continued in his letter: “You recommended that he place himself in a religious atmosphere and hope for the best.”10 As far as Jung was concerned, there was no need for doctrine or creed, only an experience. ”

Now for your husband to stop his pussy addiction, I think something similiar to this has to happen.

It’s true. I can see the way they look at their husbands with contempt. I listen to them complain over seemingly trivial things like how the way he chews disgusts them, that the way he breathes is annoying, or that he’s horrible in the bedroom. Their husbands are nice and moral but I would never trade.

You’re probably doing it wrong. Your aversion to exercise is most likely as the result of early experiences in school, where most kids are forced-marched into dull, achingly painful forms of exercise. The point of PE in most schools is sadism, and psychological subordination, not good health, and certainly not (gasp!) fun.

Look into gyms like CrossFit, and all the other similar “boot camp” style of exercise centers in your area. Their system is based on constant variety of brief but intense movements, and the training sessions are limited to about 40 minutes.

Exercise should be more like a form of vigorous play, not factory work, where you go to put in your time and punch a clock. When you train in the proper way, it feels good, because it’s what we are genetically programmed to do. Once you experience it, you naturally gravitate toward doing it, and won’t look for reasons to avoid it.

Your attitude is excellent. You can definitely improve your situation… just don’t lose your faith and motivation. You should not leave your husband.

Primal diet first. This is the absolute key. Don’t give up even if it’s hard. You may hit a wall on primal pretty quickly, but if you get through it gets easier.

Then once your energy is improved do some high rep low weight lifting. This should be the easiest exercise to do. You really only do need a few sessions of like 20 minutes per week. It may seem impossible now but your energy will be much higher on primal so you can do it. Don’t bother with cardio other than walks. Walks are a good bonus but not strictly necessary. Even the weightlifting may not be necessary if you’re primal. but it should help anyway. Again primal is the key.

Once you’re in better shape, work on being as sexy as you can and trying to turn him on when you can. Funds are not necessary to do this, you can be sexy on nothing. Don’t focus on the clothes and stuff like that… it’s a red-herring, an excuse. If you can be sexy than you can.

As others said, he may never stop cheating… make peace with it. Sounds like he’s awesome and that’s the price you pay for marrying someone awesome. If you provide a better value to him, chances are he’ll be less mean to you. Of course if he’s fucking you more he’ll cheat less.

I’ll close by saying from what I can deduce you probably have the raw material of an awesome woman. Turn yourself into one. Don’t expect it to happen over night. Celebrate small progress and stay optimistic.

I am sorry to hear of your situation. If you are determined to stay married, I would say start with the exercising. Not only will you be more fit, but it will help boost your self-esteem and make you happier. From how you’ve described him, your husband may not like you working out. Make sure you maintain strong ties with your family and friends and don’t allow your husband to interfere in them. Above all, maintain your dignity.

“I still feel more fulfilled than friends my age who are single and slutting it up, as well as friends older than me who are married to ‘nice,’ ‘good’ men.”

This isn’t true and you know it.

You probably don’t love your husband anymore anyways, but you are just afraid of the unknown and being financially independent.

The wives of drug dealers for example say they hate the drama and the abuse, but they’d rather be in an abusive relationship and not have to work, than earn an honest living. Is this guy a criminal? He sure sounds like it.

I left you a comment just before you wrote about your personal situation, but it didn’t post. In it I said that beside the 4 big ones, another thing that helps women in their quest of finding love, romance, and happiness is the type of man a woman chooses.

I know it doesn’t help you much after the fact, but let it be a big lesson to other women. Choose your man carefully because in a non-egalitarian relationships, where the man has more power than you, an asshole domineering fake-alpha can hurt you. If you are going to turn over control to a man, you better know he’s worthy and will not abuse you – mentally, emotionally, and even physically, if you don’t want it.

That said, the others advice about starting to work out is right on target. I’ll give you confidence in yourself – look wise and endurance wise – and there’s nothing better to raise a girl’s confidence than working out. Once you do it for a couple of weeks you’ll get hooked, guaranteed.

And yes, don’t stop being close to your family, they might be a haven to run to should things get unbearable.

And lastly, find a way to get money. Get a part time job. Maybe one of your family member can watch the kids for a few hours.

Being in a marriage and letting your husband lead and take control of you and the relationship doesn’t mean you have to get abused mentally and emotionally by him not giving a shit about you and your needs.

Considering what you just wrote, I don’t know if any of the usual fixes will work. It seems you married a cheater and he was this way from when he was a teenager. Expecting him to change is like marrying a guitar player and expecting him not to love music. It won’t happen.

I hate to be harsh, but you paid for the ticket knowing what the ride would be. It’s not like he was Mr. Faithful Beta and suddenly changed.

My feeling is an old saying from an old song: “Paid for the ticket, might as well take the ride.” My guess is what *attracted* you to this guy in the first place is that he had the option to cheat. If he stopped, you’d probably dump him and find another cheater, much like the co-dependent alcoholic wife who gets away from one drunk only to magically find another.

Take some perverse enjoyment out of the whole thing if you can — and admit you wanted the drama and probably still do.

You’re not going to change him (and why would you want to since he is what you chose?) but you can perhaps tip the balance a little bit from the extreme by notifying him that divorce is becoming a more attractive option. A man shouldn’t be letting his wife buy 100 pairs of shoes per month, but if he is really giving you no money he has gone too far.

Yeah I have been told to leave him and other bad advice like stop having sex with him, which would actually make things worse. Chateau Heartiste is such a realistic place to learn about human nature. I didn’t really understand how mens brains are until I came here, and it all makes sense. To be honest I didn’t really understand womens brains either heh even though I am one.

That isn’t bad advise. Stop having sex with this person immediately because he is going to give you cervical cancer, or some other form of crotch rot that you will never be able to get rid of.

Your situation sounds so bad I have a hard time believing you aren’t fabricating it. I guess that’s what non-existent self esteem will do for you. Seriously. This environment is terrible for your kids. I can’t even imagine it.

This comment is very rude and offensive. I have happy, well-adjusted, intelligent children full of life. I strongly doubt that I am the first mother in history to be cheated on or feel dumpy about her looks/confidence. What exactly is so terrible that makes my children lack a proper environment? My husband is a good loving father. I should honestly run off on him the first time I don’t feel happy? Sounds very American. My advice was asking how I can get my husband to stop cheating and commit to me more and lose interest in chasing skirts. Not how to become a single mom. And I also was never interested in the typical advice of the world, but that of honest straightforward people like heartiste. I’m not the only mother that has felt low confidence before and I’m not the only mother that has been cheated on. I have never let my problems dominate my life or make me miserable, and the world doesn’t revolve around my feelings. You are very judgmental and completely ridiculous.

You are kidding, right? I’m giving you honest and straightforward advise.
You sound absolutely miserable. You have indicated above that your husband:
-has cheated on you throughout your entire relationship
-gives you no money for clothing or anything, and won’t let you make any money to pay for those things
-screws around with women who “probably have all kinds of money to spend on nice clothes, makeup, hairstyles, etc to make themselves look pretty”
-is “mean” to you and “insensitive”.
-doesn’t take anything you say seriously, and laughs at you and your problems
The above is a portion of what you wrote. Is this accurate? Or are you making it up? If accurate, you aren’t only going to get the clap from this guy but something much worse than that or crabs.
If the above is accurate, he doesn’t respect you at all, and you don’t like him at all. Maybe you like sadists and you are a closet masochist, no judgement….but if so you shouldn’t come asking for advice and just….enjoy it, I guess?
I can’t imagine living like you do, and I’m a mother too, in a happy marriage. One where I actually praise my husband in public instead of asking for relationship advice from a bunch of self-described assholes.

Just to add, I seriously can’t square your earlier comments with the outrage and insistence that you are not miserable here. It’s like Jekyll and Hyde. The environment you described before is toxic. I can feel the negativity from here, over the world wide web. Are you always like this? Maybe it’s a hormone problem. Are you taking oral contraception? I couldn’t take the pill because it made me nutty. The IUD rocks, get that (if he wears a condom, assuming the philandering is authentic, or else you’re just going to end up in the hospital with something requiring intravenous antibiotics, at best).

White Woman, please excuse me for writing about you in the third person here.

It is a perfectly normal reaction for a person to defend the one who hurts them. It would seem like they shouldn’t, but they will. White Woman did write everything that you quoted, but, when people sympathized with her and suggested doing something she doesn’t want to do (confront the damage her husband has caused) she immediately allied with him again. This is why you cannot criticize the husband. It only serves to alienate. I don’t mean to be a doomsayer, but this is all a pretty predicatable pattern.

The thing I find alarming is that he is preventing her from earning any money on her own. This is not a man wanting to provide a comfortable home for her and insisting that she get to be a stay at home mom. No. What he is doing is making it impossible for her to leave him so that she will continue to be under his thumb. This is not my definition of alpha nor even what most her would call it.

She will likely in moments of “weakness” like above (when she is actually asking for help), relate what is truly going on only to backpedal soon after. Being cheated on, or being abused, or being the spouse of an addict, or whatever the case may be for any woman, carries a certain amount of shame. And to own up to that and to be outed in that to friends and family. Well, that is too much to bear and so it must be hidden by denying that it matters or that it even exists.

It is too horrible to contemplate that one has allowed themselves to be treated thus. It would mean changing/ruining her whole life. She has stated several times now that she doesn’t want to break up her family. But its already broken.

When people become frustrated with her unwillingness to leave her husband, they will leave her. Friends and family will drop away because they do not want to enable the situation. And that is when she will really be in a pickle. Who can she turn to? Where will she go? And with no money?

Forgive me to those who think I amy be being overly dramatic or a feminist, but these are the things that go on every day all over the world. And there is not always a simple fix to complex problems. Maybe you don’t know anyone who’s ever gone through something similar, but it happens. All the time.

There are bad women who take advantage of good men and there *are* bad men who take advantage of good women. While the woman involved may not be entirely blameless, women in these scenarios are usually only too glad to suffer to spare their children. They don’t need to be told to try harder.

Ultimately no one will change until they are ready to. They have to bottom out before that can happen. They have to exhaust every option and rpove to themselves they’ve done all they can. Is some of this personal? Its personal in that if I could spare anyone the experiences described above by offering my perspective you bet I will. You can mock me, you can ridicule me, I don’t care. Its not for anyone else but her in the hope it makes a positive impact and something about her live improves as a result.

Liz and Kate, I think White woman is not stable, as you said, Jekyll and Hyde – one moment sounding like her whole life is falling apart and the next defending the one that hurt her.

She is either a jealous woman whose mind is playing tricks on her to the point she believes that her man is cheating on her, or she is just delusional thinking that his impregnating her with child after child (she admitted she’s been pregnant for most of their marriage) and staying home all day long barefoot and pregnant with the kids will keep her alpha cad interested in her. Of course he is going to find other women with slim youthful tight bodies who aren’t constantly pregnant, more desirable than her. So he is mixing it between bedding her and bedding his hot beauties on the side.

He gets a thrill from impregnating her and he also gets a thrill from sexing the tight un-pregnant bodies of women that aren’t his wife. Nice work if you can get it. Except, it’s the kind of work that makes women feel emotionally and spiritually unfulfilled, and destroys families in the process.

She needs to stop getting pregnant until he is able to assume the responsibility of a family. Maybe he got married too young and didn’t have enough time to sew his wild oats, but by now he needs to get over it for the sake of his children and their mother. What we say grow up.

But maybe her husband is not cheating. It’s hard to tell with white woman, how truthful she is. Maybe her husband is very extrovert, has lots of friends, and ladies are always flocking to him, but she mistakes any flirting as cheating. Some men will always be popular with the ladies and they like to flirt to keep proving to themselves and their wives that they still have it and can cheat in a heartbeat so she better be grateful he isn’t, and respect him for that – just to keep the woman interested and fearful; dread. Maybe she is misreading that game for cheating?

Or maybe he is really cheating and treating her like shit. But then she should have known who he was before she started running after him when they first met, and definitely she shouldn’t have married him.

OMG! If he is really cheating, she could get some STD from him. I couldn’t be with a man that wasn’t keeping that part of him pure. Can you imagine having your husband wear condoms when you 2 are together because he is cheating and you don’t want to get something nasty from him? Is that intimacy? How does it form deep intimacy between a couple?

If all she said initially about him is true, he is not the example of an alpha. He is a domineering selfish creep. And who said that by continuing to live with him like this, HE won’t eventually leave her and the kids in favor of running feely after hos? I think she needs to stop getting pregnant, workout, work part time to get some money in her pocket or take online courses so she gets a degree. Any stupid degree, even an Associate Degree so that she van be more employable. What if he leaves her tomorrow, who will take care of her financial needs? I am sorry I have to sound like a feminist, but in this case having plan 2 and plan 3 might be in order; in case the marriage doesn’t last.

It will be hard for her to find another man now that she has kids, so she might have to learn to stand on her own 2 feet. If it ends up being a false alarm and he isn’t interested in losing her, that’s great and a small price to pay. But if he ends up succumbing to his urges like most weak men, then she will need to be able to survive and not fall apart.

Liz, I politely ask you to stop replying to me. From the very beginning of my request for advice, I indicated that I have zero thoughts of leaving my husband and wouldn’t even consider it. I am not miserable. I am unhappy about some things. Am I the first mother to ever have these things happen to her? No. I keep my problems in perspective. Breaking up my family would be a radically extreme thing to do. What would I gain? To feel that I got back at him for being unfaithful? At what expense? The expense of ruining my family. The advice I asked for was to stop/lessen his desire to be unfaithful. And I have gotten good and reasonable advice from a number of honest people from this website. I married him knowing that he is a cheater and decided that the good things still outweighed the cons. I have no intention of changing my mind about that. Why would I? It’s true, he doesn’t want me to work to make money. I have never had a job before in my life. He doesn’t want me to make money because it would distract from my duties at home, take time away from that, and thinking about money would cause me more stress. Clothing, shopping, etc, all those things are reserved as being gifts for special occasions like my birthday and anniversary. It’s true that I wish my husband was more liberal with his money. It’s also true that he is insensitive to me and laughs at my problems. He treats me a lot like a child and says that my problems are not important. He says that I am naive and don’t know or understand anything about the world. I don’t know how often he cheats on me. It could be every day or it could be once a year. I have seen evidence of his infidelity, and he has admitted the truth to me that he cheats, but he refuses to part with any details whatsoever. In regards to artificial contraceptives, no, I do not take any. Both the pill and the IUD can cause abortions. If you’re fine with that, you are the one with more severe problems than I. I believe that children are blessings, not burdens.

I will accede your request and not respond to your posts further. You and I have nothing in common.
No amount of advice will help you because you have purposely chosen to be a marytr, the reason you chose a mate with no respect for you. He will never respect you because you neither command it, nor desire it. Infidelity will not stop regardless of what you do for what should be obvious reasons…your relationship has been built on this dynamic, and from what you’ve indicated he takes pleasure in hurting you. This isn’t a daliance it is a lifestyle.
This means he isn’t a nice person. Well adjusted people don’t act that way towards those they have sworn under God to be faithful to, love, and cherish.

You’ve gotten to the crux of the matter, Liz. This person is neither nice nor well-adjusted. And advice that would be given for dealing with that kind of person simply does not apply to someone dysfunctional. It doesn’t work the same way. We’re not talking about a little argument that takes place in an otherwise healthy relationship.

oops…lied before but this is the very. last. response. (to you) Look at the purpose of this forum. There are certainly men’s rights issues, but it is a PUA forum. And you have asked these people for sound relationship advice. Not saying they aren’t capable of sound advice but when you choose this venue for that you have pretty much crossed the proverbial rubicon. Men of quality, when they settle down, want to settle down with a partner in life, not a groveler. If they wanted a groveler only they’d just get a dog.

The advice she gets on a site like this is the best advice she will get because it is coming from men who are being 100% honest. In other words, the things wiritten on this site are thought but left unspoken by each and every one of these “men of quality” of which you speak.

Beside the 4 big ones that heartiste talked about, another thing that helps women in their quest of finding love, romance, and happiness (a good marriage/relationship is probably the #1 source of a woman’s happiness bar none, regardless of what idiotic feminists say) is the type of man a woman chooses.

If you choose a man who is what modern society calls “misogynist,” “sexist,” “chauvinist,” chances are you’d be much happier. Those types of men appreciate the differences of men and women, and would like nothing more than to extenuate the sexual polarity as much as possible to create sexual excitement. You better off looking for such a man as BF/husband material than the usual feminized male that has been brainwashed with feminist mumbo jumbo of equality. Hard to find, but they are out there. Also, sometimes if a beta guy has some semblance of true masculinity, you acting as heartiste advised can bring it out in him. You can cultivate it in him by virtue of your feminine behavior. If he doesn’t appreciate it, then he’s not your man. That’s why a woman has to choose her man wisely.

I don’t think women want to be equal. I think they want to be cherished and protected, and paid lots of attention to via sex and little bit of male/BF/husband control.

For 1, 2 and 3, women already know to do those things, they just don’t have the will for it so they hamster it away that those things don’t really matter, guys are attracted to confidence and personality.

What’s truly hiralous is that guys do take in account personality but the personality that these women think is attractive due to projection is the single biggest reason that these men would never ever think about commiting to these women even if they are hot. They actually do believe through brainwashing that being aggressive and bitchy and opinioned is an attractive personality.

Number 4 needs to screamed out to high heaven since this is the one that women in general have no clue about. The others they damn well know but just are too lazy to implement.

Well I am going to start kicking ass with a new workout routine. I would never take the advice that says to leave my husband. I could never come close to loving any other man but him and he is a wonderful father, he just has a wandering eye and always has. I wish I could do something to change that or at least try.

“White Woman, do you hate his cheating or you exercising more? It’s simply choice”

You have a bad attitude about his “wandering eye,” and he can smell that stink of resentment on you for miles.

I already do the other things but my husband cheats on me anyways [sic]. He has cheated throughout our entire relationship. I was pretty and popular when I was a teenager and he cheated even then, when we weren’t even married yet, but I have spent almost the entire marriage in pregnancy and have become insecure about the way I look now.

You will mostly get variations between “suck it up, harpy” to “ha ha, bitch” in terms of advice from this crowd. When they’re feeling generous, they’ll tone it down to a simple, “look hot, everything else will fall in place.”

The real source of your discontent comes from taking the focus off your children for the zero-sum pursuit of your own happiness. For the next 10-15 years, your flesh and blood must be the focus of your life. These are crucial years for them, you have to be fully present as a mother or they will grow up to be basket cases. Put their concerns before yours, and stop acting like you’re still “pretty and popular” and “a teenager.”

Men of this era, and I’m assuming your husband, have little reason to withdraw from the sexual marketplace for the sake of easing your paranoias. Work on that yourself. He is not banging every slut he sees. (Your cunt BFF drama queens will try to convince you otherwise.)

Marriage is a project, especially today. To make a successful family in this era means going countercultural, something your husband has no apparent ability to independently lead you and his children towards. That means you have to do the best with what you have, where you are. It means not adding to the culture that strains marriages (and keeps his eye wandering, out of insecurity). If you demonstrate your worth as a mother — rather than a paranoid shrew pining for her cheerleader days and cursing the ravages of time — you will maintain yourself (and your children) as the first option for a man with many options.

You have to be heroic, until the pollutant of the culture’s lies are drained from him and yourself — lies we all grew up with. That means bearing his transgressions with patience rather than adding them to a secret bill of particulars, and thereby, showing him the way to resolve conflict cooperatively. Again, the pressure will be to break up your family, as some in this comment thread are already subtly encouraging. You counteract this by being a good woman regardless of his foibles, which helps him become a better man.

Marriage used to be a good deal for men: he was the undisputed head of household. That status was worth providing for, above and beyond his love for spouse and offspring. It is no longer a good deal, partly because of the implied threat of power you perhaps have no idea you have. You therefore must do everything you can to make it a good deal for him, with the odds stacked against you. A smart first step was familiarizing yourself with the sexual reality preached in places like this site. Now you have to find like-minded wives to help support you, which are very rare, granted, and yet this is the internet. Above all, don’t underestimate the task.

I’d say send your husband to sites like these, but they don’t give a damn about the stability of families. Maybe Athol Kay’s “Married Man Sex Life” would be better for a guy like him — who may or may not be able to read through the hedonistic fog to the virtue of self-constrained manliness. Seventy-five percent of the responsibility will fall to him for keeping your family together. That means your fate is essentially out of your hands. Once you accept that, then you can focus the variables that you can alter, such as the influence over what kind of man he will grow to be.

Go to “Hooking Up Smart” if you’re desperate, but Susan Walsh has some fundamentally erroneous ideas about the nature of men that distort even her most innocuous offerings of advice.

I’d recommend Stingray’s blog for a girl in your predicament, or for any woman who has realized Cosmo has been feeding her inanities and lies. Stingray occasionally comments here and elsewhere, and she has modestly begun a conversation among like-minded women. She is generous about responding in the specific to her correspondents. Unfortunately she is too modest for her own good and shy about advertising her site, which is a growing almanac of how “red-pill” women might understand men better.

Bottom line is, if you ignore this advice, you will suffer into the wisdom anyway. The only question will be whether you blew up a family and screwed your children for life in the process. You will want to deny the trajectory of your sexual market value, and in your denial you will be tempted to do some incredibly self-destructive, vengeful, and insane things. Locating contentment in your children for now, especially while they are young, will give you the breathing space to mature and make good decisions, even as the culture surrounding you (and infiltrating you) are determined to keep you immature.

I wouldn’t recommend taking advice from anyone who isn’t or hasn’t been married. They simply don’t have the frame of reference. As intelligent as the host and many of the posters here are, don’t mistake this blog for the be all and end all of helpful advice.

[Heartiste: I am the alpha and the omega of relationship advice. You think what applies to unmarried relationships doesn’t also apply to married ones? Human nature doesn’t magically change upon receipt of a signed piece of paper.]

I agree you should put your children first by showing them a good example. That does not mean allowing someone to mistreat you.

[Wives with children should stay in bad marriages as long as possible until an acute psychological threshold is reached beyond which they can no longer function in a normal human capacity. They should do this for the children.]

If an unmarried relationship has the equivalent duration and intensity of a married one, then I agree with you, wise and benevolent host. The piece of paper makes no difference in this discussion. But, with all due respect, a person never married cannot fully appreciate the concept as they have never experienced it. A person married five years doesn’t know what its like to be married ten years, etc., etc., etc. A person who has never had children, although they may certainly voice opinions about raising them, again, has less authority on the subject than an equally informed person who does have children. No one would consider a woman an authority on men for the simple fact that she is not one.

My post comes from a real concern for White Woman and the advice she is getting. I worry how ideas flung out at places like this affect people, and I think it is always important to know who one is taking advice from instead of accepting information simply because those are the voices that spoke up. There might be five people out there thinking, “This is bad,” but they haven’t posted.

“Wives with children should stay in bad marriages as long as possible until an acute psychological threshold is reached beyond which they can no longer function in a normal human capacity. They should do this for the children.”

I am not an advocate for divorce except in extreme cases either. The signs to me are clear. She does suffer, she will suffer, the children will suffer whether she stays or leaves. The only difference is the depth of the suffering and the impact it will leave on each of them.

Married woman here, with children and you should stay with him. Your children need you and they need you to be strong. Do not let them down.

Your self respect is for you and your children. Do what you can, everything you can, to keep your husband attracted. It’s all you can do. If it doesn’t work, it does not mean you failed. The only way you could fail is to become too wrapped up in yourself and not your babies and your marriage.

But, with all due respect, a person never married cannot fully appreciate the concept as they have never experienced it.

Just like an old celibate pontiff “cannot fully appreciate the concept” of what a contracepted marriage means — because he hasn’t been yoked to a sterile harridan for decades?

Your sentiment is flat-out garbage. Experience doubtlessly helps our apprehension of a thing — indeed, experience is the most efficient means of attaining certain types of wisdom. But your sweeping observation does not apply in every case or even most cases. It smacks of rationalization for your own choices. It does not bespeak of universal application.

There are thinkers, there are doers, and there are explainers. The talents are not mutually exclusive, and yet they do not typically align either. Game is a kind of renaissance, and CH is a renaissance man par excellence: thinker, doer, and explainer.

But to sum it up: there are many more factors to be considered than the mother’s idea of her own happiness and “suffer[ing],” particularly since the modern American woman has largely abandoned her capacity for prudence and self-judgment. Which leads to incredibly destructive myths like: “She does suffer, she will suffer, the children will suffer whether she stays or leaves.”

Worst of all, these lies are taken as gospel truth, never supported, never challenged. Let’s apply common sense then. By what rule must a woman inevitably pass along her suffering to her children? The only rule I can think of is vengeance, taking out her frustrations and pain on the innocents in her charge. As an alternative course of action, look up the concept of “redemptive suffering.”

The cause of the suffering is evil, yes. But feminists have gotten a pass on their mythos for so long that its veracity is not just unchallenged but considered unchallengeable. How dare an “outsider” pass judgment on what horrors the sacrosanct woman endures! I call bullshit. This community calls bullshit, and soon the entire male sex will call bullshit.

Perpetrating suffering is evil. But to transfer that suffering to one’s children — a blameless third party and one’s flesh and blood — even at the expense of one’s own well-being is a circle of hell deeper, so profoundly unjust that an open discussion of it has been outlawed. While women justify this transfer of pain as the result of their being “trapped” in a “loveless” situation, they cannot fathom their own wickedness, exempting themselves from the spread of evil by blaming it all on the original perpetrator.

Take the red pill. Before we start adding it to the water supply like fluoride.

@ King: Please accept that you are not the authority on everything and allow others to express themselves and offer their own thoughts and concerns. You do not have to agree with me, but the antagonism and the imputation on my reading of the situation is unwarranted and deeply hurtful. Perhaps it is a change in me or it is an actual change I see in others, but a little more humilty all around wouldn’t go amiss.

If you advocate a woman staying with an adulterer, you advocate adultery. If you are going to make statements like this, I hope you’re prepared to back them up personally. Your readers should know you consider it acceptable for men to cheat on their wives and that you too would stay with a cheater. I recommend that you also look into the reasons for Catholic annulments. They include such things as fraud, concealment of addiction, and “if there was never intent to be faithful”, which is the case here.

To advocate basically means to support. I can support a woman staying in her marriage while while vehemently opposing his adultery. In one, I support the act of staying in a marriage and a family and in the other, I oppose the act of his unfaithfulness. However, yes, you are correct that the Church would very likely give and annulment given his indiscretions before the marriage.

But you keep avoiding the key thing here. The children. The first duty of parents towards their children is to love them. You read my post on Love. It is to will the good of another. If staying with a man who it unfaithful is what it takes to will the best for her children, then I do support that. There is no talk of abuse or harm in anyway toward her children. And I can very easily support her love of her children while being appalled at and opposing his adultery.

I don’t think I’m avoiding anything. I’m pretty well aware children come first. It doesn’t seem like something that needs to be said. But what seems to be unclear is that sometimes you have to help yourself before you can help them. You alluded above that that would be selfish. Its not. Unless you have something to give, nobody’s getting anything anyway.

I firmly believe there are ways to help yourself, to have plenty to give, without sacrificing your family to do so, Nightlily outlined somethings below. A woman in this predicament needs to look beyond herself to find what she needs to be able to give. If she is Christian then faith could be enough. Again, there is no evidence of the children or the wife being in danger (physically or otherwise) and he is the man she married. Her children need her and their father and they will do best within that family, together.

Women are prone to reading their own personal experiences and preferences into a general discussion (or others’ predicaments), which is the only reason why your (possibly willful) nonsense is tolerable. An unbearable situation for Kate might be a bearable one for White Woman (WW), but the former is reading herself into an experience she can only know in abstraction and, at best, second-hand.

None of this has to do with “advocat[ing] adultery.” Do we know WW is being asked to tolerate adultery? Do we understand the precise effect that sin is having on her and her family? In the absence of corroborating details, we must remain agnostic and answer “no.”

If you advocate a woman staying with an adulterer, you advocate adultery.

Where do you get this syllogism from? It is false on its face. It assumes women have one weapon against adultery, abandonment, and a nuclear option, at that. It also assumes the impossibility of forgiveness and reconciliation, not to mention the value of trying to heal a family rather than tearing it apart.

Does this mean general guidelines apply in every circumstance? No, because we were only discussing WW’s circumstance, and important information was left out. You took the coincidence of this incompleteness and shaped it into a universal maxim, and that maxim became a cudgel for you to accuse all dissenters of bad faith.

This is a good opportunity to highlight the assumptions you are bringing to the table, because you are apparently oblivious to them. Sin is separate from the sinner. Loyalty to the sinner is essential to Christianity and is not advocacy of sin. Our advice to WW was to handle it like a Christian to the furthest extent possible, trusting her judgment to determine what is in fact possible (which she has since testified about). So you have a different idea of what’s possible. That’s fine, but it doesn’t make everyone else insouciant naifs dispensing dangerous advice.

And just to confuse you further, I do indeed advocate adultery and fornication in some exceptional circumstances (despite the sixth commandment) just as I advocate killing in exceptional circumstances (despite the fifth).

All’s fair in love and war. Our blame for doing certain extreme acts in certain extreme situations is dependent on context. There are intrinsic evils — acts that are evil in themselves. And there are circumstantial evils — acts whose evil depend on context and intent. The tradition of jus in bello is firmly established (CCC #2312) and mitigates the severity of the nominal sin (#1857).

We are engaged in a war of the sexes. Because one side has refused reply for so long, the family itself is now in threat of extinction. We must deploy self-defensive and evasive maneuvers, or else we must sue for surrender. Unfortunately, the enemy is not interested in our capitulation so much as our slow, quiet eradication.

By choosing not to fight for so long, conditions are such that a jus ad bellum has obtained. By abstaining from this duty of self-defense, we have stood by as souls have been hollowed out. We have passively allowed or even encouraged an epidemic of infanticide (fifty-million children slaughtered in forty years) and countless private miseries among the most innocent. Aw-shucks fealty to a set of legalist rules is openly used as a weapon against the virtuous, and that makes this war an existential matter.

None of this justifies adultery per se, but it does justify a strict approach to defining the boundaries of sexual sin within a landscape of war. That means refusing the enemy the means to define those boundaries for us, which they accomplish by raising the “sin” of hypocrisy above all others. We must put ourselves in a mind of war in order to thread the needle between being sinful and being taken advantage of to create a permanent regime of the sinful.

If family and marriage have been redefined beyond recognition, then so has adultery and fornication. The latter are dependent on a robust institution of and respect for the former. The ground of our civitas has liquified into a morass, and we are slipping under the walls of civilization back to the state of nature. We must engage in a stop-loss operation and engage in the savage wars for peace.

Anomie and sexual anarchy require a return to basics. The frittering away of order requires a conscious renewal of the social compact: only through violence can we purge the violent, and often the conflicting tendencies lay side-by-side within ourselves. We are the generation half-returned to the jungle. We must force the choice — for every man, woman, and child — between civilization and nature.

I am not yet sure whether this fight will require a complete abandonment of the weapons of men for the weapons of God (Eph 6:11-20), considering the insidious, entrenched, and intimate nature of this unprecedented enemy. But faced with extinction, we must place all options on the table.

Feminism has thrived on the idea that female submissiveness can be stripped from woman’s nature, and for a century this lie has allowed generations to grow distorted. We are at the tipping point where our disconnection from our essence is nearly complete. Nature always wends its way back into our artifices, like tree roots cracking concrete. The only question will be whether we enforce that lost submissiveness back on ourselves or allow nature to chaotically do it to us at an even greater cost through an even more disruptive upheaval. That is the question of our age. It matters where we place our efforts.

I have a lot of support for my thoughts and ideas but there’s no point discussing it with you as you never listen anyway. I examine my conscience regularly and thoroughly. I will not be advised on how to be a Christian from someone who exhibits the behavior I have seen from you and the unfortunate changes I see in Stingray in the past months. The only thing that matters to me is that I do my best to live a moral life. If that morality compels me to stand against my friends then that is what I must do. And you may misunderstand my intentions and have a bad opinion of me, but, I can’t act in any other way than in accordance with what I feel is right.

Kate, you have made a general discussion of a specific case personal to you and to those who disagree with you. This isn’t just inappropriate, it is factually misleading and even self-destructive.

But we are in fact friends, and this is the moment to demonstrate it. A friendship perseveres despite differences, even profound ones. That’s what “unconditional” means. The bad feelings you think distance you from us are opportunities to transcend them and actually strengthen the bonds of affection.

I have no bad opinion of you, we simply disagree. You said that we don’t listen, when in fact we are. We understand what you are saying and hear you. This is not the same as agreeing, which is what it seems you want us to do. I’m not here to make you agree with me, simply discuss. This is my opinion. I do not have illusions that you will blindly take it, merely listen and ponder.

Also, Kate. Please know. I know nothing of your past other than two pertinent details. I have no opinion of it as I know nothing about it. I have zero judgement of your decisions. I couldn’t possibly given my lack of knowledge.

For the love of goodness, let this go. We disagree and we always will. I find your views just as misleading as you do mine and I will not be invalidated by you or anyone else in this area. I feel too strongly to even apologize- and as an over-apologizer that’s saying something. I appreciate your offer of continued friendship, but this is all too much drama for me. As someone I know says about anonymous interactions: “I either deal with real people or I don’t deal with them.” I think its a good rule.

Well, I see a change in you. I see that you have allowed your popularity to affect your humility. What makes you feel qualified to give advice to a woman of WhiteWoman’s situation? As far as I know, you live under the protection of a good man and have never experienced otherwise. As it appears to me, you know nothing of men who can’t be eased out of a bad mood by a good home-cooked meal. That’s nice for you, but don’t assume everything that works in your world will work in another.

You suggest she stay with a man who cheated on her before and during the marriage and seem to have no understanding of the implication *his* actions will have on her psyche and that of her children. Yes, I remember the conversation we had about love on your thread. Love is willing the good of the other. And sometimes that means its refusing to be an enabler. You have suggested that she continue to allow his bad behavior. That does no good to him or to her.

It is one thing to support men turning their lives around and giving them empathy for the tough times they’ve gone through, but you’ve completely lost sight of the overall picture. You’ve read too many men’s blogs. I don’t see you dispensing advice to men to “work on their marriages,” or point out to them when they attacked Ashley recently for an admittedly insensitive remark that that was a totally disproportionate reaction. Where is your concern for women? No where. And that is what I have a problem with. It seems more than a little self-serving not to mention a flagrant double standard.

I’m not concerned about your judgement of me although I will say its rude of you to keep using the pronoun “we” to refer to you and King as though the two of you are parents disciplining a naughty child who dared to say, “You’re nothing but a house of cards.”

You suggest she stay with a man who cheated on her before and during the marriage and seem to have no understanding of the implication *his* actions will have on her psyche and that of her children. Yes, I remember the conversation we had about love on your thread. Love is willing the good of the other. And sometimes that means its refusing to be an enabler. You have suggested that she continue to allow his bad behavior.

As far as she has stated, his behavior has not had and affect on the psyche of her children, hence why I suggest she stay. I have done no such thing as suggesting she allow his bad behavior. I have suggested that she not leave. I do not think leaving is the only thing she has on the table to change his behavior and I believe that nuking the family is the very last option and only if the children come to harm and serious harm comes to herself. Women can have amazing strength and that is what is now needed for them.

point out to them when they attacked Ashley recently for an admittedly insensitive remark that that was a totally disproportionate reaction.

I am not sure what comment you are talking about here, but I have given Ashley advice about how she addresses commenters and she told me not to worry about it, that she was not scared (her exact words). I respect her decision to do that, why does she need me to back her up? Who am I to suppose she needs my help and given that I disagree with some of what she says, do you purpose that I stand by her ideas when I don’t?

Is there a double standard when it comes to how I support men and then not support some women? Yes. The men often come to learn, truly learn, what they can do to make a change. When women come in who wish to do that, I support them fully as well. I supported Ashley for as long as she wanted it. When she took it too far, do you really expect me to further cushion the blow for her when she has accepted the warnings and help already given and chose a different route?

I will say its rude of you to keep using the pronoun “we” to refer to you and King as though the two of you are parents disciplining a naughty child who dared to say, “You’re nothing but a house of cards.”

I used the pronoun “we” for the simple fact that we have the same idea here. Nothing more and nothing less. It seemed patronizing to you to use the pronoun “I” in this sense and I apologize if it offended you.

You seem to think I dislike women, but you would be wrong. I merely treat them as they wish to be treated, as adults who stand on their own two feet. If they step into the fray, why is it on me or any one else to take them out? I see my blog as an attempt to help them understand and that is the same thing I do for men.

Use your imagination to think how children are affected. I can think of many instances of young people who harbor great resentment towards one of their parents for cheating on their other parent. This then affects their own view of relationships . Or, they may look at their parent’s example and find it permissable and perpetuate the cycle. Never in my comments did I say she *should* leave him; my point is that she has a perfect *right* to. Yes, women do have amazing strength. But they can tire themselves out wasting their energy on lost causes and end up with nothing for themselves.

No, you should not stand by ideas you don’t agree with, but you have set yourself up as a role model for women and, if you take that seriously, it means bringing women into the fold, not alienating them. And it means acknowledging that there are times when they have legitimate reasons for divorce and that men are also responsible for marital breakdowns.

The use of the pronoun sort of illustrates my point. “I” is offensive to men, not women (except when used exponentially and then it’ll even bug me). Thank you for your apology. I know I’ve done something similar in the past in couselling someone, so its something I need to be careful not to do as well.

I’ve done this. But have you considered for a moment that the children may not be aware? That they may never be aware? I have no reason to assume they are being affected as whitewoman did not say either way.

But they can tire themselves out wasting their energy on lost causes and end up with nothing for themselves.

What they have for themselves is the knowledge that they did right by their children (again, assuming they are not being harmed).

my point is that she has a perfect *right* to.

Of course she does, but she also has the right to stay if she deems it best. I simply do not assume that the husband is doing anything to hurt the children. Is he hurting her? Of course, but she knew that from the beginning and went ahead with her family. Her family is her focus now, not herself.

it means bringing women into the fold, not alienating them. And it means acknowledging that there are times when they have legitimate reasons for divorce and that men are also responsible for marital breakdowns.

I am going to treat women how they say they wish to be treated. If they start a conversation, then it’s something they wanted to discuss. If people pile on her (and I mean truly pile on her. Not respond in kind) then I will put a stop to it. People will make a comment and others will respond in the manner they were addressed. I’ll not moderate that. It’s part of being an adult and Ashley knew that as I assume most of the women who come to my site will.

I absolutely acknowledge there are legitimate reasons for divorce. I thought I made that very plain from all the mentions of serious harm and it is quite obvious that men are sometimes responsible for marital breakdowns. Is it so hard to see that a man’s sin may not be affecting his children at all? That he is capable of discretion, even while doing wrong? That it would be just as wrong, if not a level worse, to break up a family when the children are ok, thriving even? Maybe I am wrong to assume this, but I think it equally wrong to simply assume that he is blatant in his indiscretions and subjecting the children to it as he subjects his wife.

From the additional information we have now, it would appear the children are pretty young: four or less. Now they may not be explicitly aware, but its my opinion that the behavior affecting her will impact her interactions with her children just as, say, a depressed person would behave differently as a result of whatever was causing their depression. The children may not pick up on actual events yet, but, they will be, instead, picking up on other kinds of cues.

Because she chose him in the first place, her judgment is suspect, and she may not have any idea of what is truly best. Self-sacrifice is very noble- to a degree- then it becomes unwarranted martyrdom. A woman who entered and maintained a marriage in good faith is different than a woman who, herself, sabotaged the relationship. In that case, she must reap what she has sown.

I think sin affects in invisible ways. Someone may not even be able to identify what is wrong, but its there. I’d be interesting to hear examples of children thriving in situations where a parent stays in a relationship with a cheating spouse.

Now they may not be explicitly aware, but its my opinion that the behavior affecting her will impact her interactions with her children just as, say, a depressed person would behave differently as a result of whatever was causing their depression.

This is the big concern (from the info we have) and where a tremendous amount of strength must come in. It would be extraordinarily difficult, but it can be done.

Self-sacrifice is very noble- to a degree- then it becomes unwarranted martyrdom.

When it comes to the lives of one’s children I simply disagree. if takes martyrdom to bring what’s best for them, then I think that is what must be done. There is a reason the Church holds martyrs in such great esteem.

I’d be interesting to hear examples of children thriving in situations where a parent stays in a relationship with a cheating spouse.

I couldn’t find much. It’s not something often done today and I’m not sure how much it was done in the past either. I did, find this one account. It’s very long, but I recommend reading it through the end. You asked me once to post about women of strength. Women who are worth admiring. You might not find it the case with this woman, but I absolutely do. Her strength is astounding and I admire her greatly for what she was able to accomplish in such a horrible situation. She talks about God a lot. It might turn some off, but faith is what got her and her children through it and she is joyful. It is possible, only amazingly difficult.

Many things *can* be done. It’s a matter of whether or not they *should* be done. I think her suffering was completely unecessary and I don’t believe we are meant to live that way. If she wanted to sacrifice herself to bear the cross of her husband, that’s her prerogative, but I certainly wouldn’t hold her up as an exemplary woman. I know only too well what its like to have a father who can’t be bothered to care about his own family and my idea of a good mother is one who commands a father’s interest in her and their children, not one who excuses it. But, that’s a totally different topic and this thread is completely unmanageable. Maybe there are some future posts in some of these discussions.

Did it ever occur to you that you’re trying to atone for your mother’s behavior in allowing yourself to be dumped on? You’re showing yourself you can take it and won’t break down like Mother did. You also married a completely different kind of man from your father as yet another form of compensation for your early life circumstances. Its no way to live life.

That reply was meant for Kate. Trust me I have been given the advice to just leave my husband many many times and I have heard it all before. What I mean is that I am slightly unhappy because my husband cheats on me, I don’t feel sexy like I used to, and I am not given money to spend on things that would help be look better. But I am nowhere near being miserable. I think it’s completely ridiculous to break my family up just because I am slightly unhappy about those things. Take my children away from their daddy? Be apart from the man I love who takes care of us? Because of minor sexual flings? Any advice I asked for was only to help me convince him to be more committed to me only and not want other girls. That is the exact opposite of leaving my marriage! It is the most horrible thing I could do. Nothing to gain, everything to lose.

Behold, the flip flop. A drop of honesty now drowned in Denial. This is why you should seek professional help. I wish you well, White Woman, but you will quickly wear out people’s care and interest this way. No one will want to spend their time helping someone who doesn’t really want it.

And those who reject the mythos are instantly ridiculed and dismissed.

Give me a break. Blowing up her family is the only way to be “honest[]” with her feminine self? Even as she puts her marginal “suffering” into its proper perspective, a perspective that exposes the radicality of your impossible formulas? Every contrary path is ipso-facto “Denial” With A Capital-D? The ideological antibodies thusly surround the pathogen of truth.

Again, the worst part is that you don’t even know what profound lies you are sustaining and disseminating, what poisons in candy-coating, what malignancies wrapped in platitude. Stop and examine your clichés before you repeat them. You’ll save yourselves lots of trouble. Especially here.

Your own church law would award an annullment for the circumstances White Woman described. It would subsantiate that the marriage is not valid and never was. Perhaps your beliefs diverge from Catholic doctrine here.

Kate, I don’t think she should leave her husband. What I think she should do, and it will be far more effective, is to start having standards and setting boundaries that he can’t cross if he cares about making her happy. The reason she is in this predicament to begin with, besides hooking up with a man she knew can’t be trusted sexually, is she never set up boundaries for him that he knew he can’t cross or loser her. She had anything-is-accepted attitude with him, and now all of a sudden wants him to tame his wild ways. It’s not that easy. She needs to work on her appearance, not just for him, but also so that she has more confidence in herself and her beauty, and as a result be able to set those boundaries for him. Whatever she wants them to be; she needs to make that call. She needs to focus on the STD issue that she is worried about catching from him. Maybe that will deter him a bit.

Furthermore, she shouldn’t get any professional help. Most of them will tell her to leave her husband, as they are liberal thinkers. I take Heartiste position that divorcee should only be an option in extreme situations like physical abuse or drug abuse or sexual abuse of the kids, that’s it. Not getting all of your husband’s attention is not a good enough reason for breaking up a family. Of course, if she didn’t have kids with him, I would have told her to leave immediately; a woman deserves to be fulfilled in her marriage, not just a man. Therefore, I don’t think professional help will be good for her. Most therapist are as liberal as feminists are. Unless, she can find one that is a marriage advocate, or a Christian family therapist promulgating Judeo-Christian values of the family. Otherwise, professional help is not helpful.

@Lily: The boundaries issue is incredibly important. Because regardless of whatever kind of relationship we’re talking about, its important to have them. What I meant by professional help was someone who works with co-dependent women as opposed to blog commenters or even just the friends and family in her life as they may not know the best way to help. You can see how I cannot even abide the opinions of those who are doing their best to discuss this with me. I needed someone practiced in order to get the help I was looking for and that was what I was referring to when I said “professional.” From your comment I can see that maybe I caused some misunderstanding from that wording.

“From your comment I can see that maybe I caused some misunderstanding from that wording.”

Yeah, I think so. But, Ok, now I get you.

Anyway, I don’t think she wants to hear from us, and sounds very resentful we didn’t tell her what she wanted to hear. I don’t think she even has an inclination on what to do, or how to begin. It might take a lot more pain for her to make a move, one way or the other, and maybe some maturing.

However, if she can set some boundaries for him, not many, just one or two, and stick to making him abide by them, maybe she can train him ever so slightly. But anything is better than nothing, as he is more of a brute than a refined man.

I would also advise you to read a couple of memoires and biographies of the great courtesans. There were reasons why some of these woman were able to out-compete scores of younger and more beautiful women.

There is no hope for your situation. Quite simply, you are doomed to suffer compound agony for the rest of your life. And there was never anything you could have done to prevent this.
There; I pronounce it. You are the Perfect Helplesss Victim of Male Cruelty.
It that does not get you off, nothing will.

Guys, I didn’t read this post at all, but I have this burning question. I am dying for an honest answer here. me: need honest answer about male perspective on aspect of female attractiveness. you: hopefully capable of providing said answer.

So, I was watching this porn vid (be happy to link you but I assume im not allowed here). And this “javanese” girl starts fingering herself with these ridiculous porn star nails. Like wayy to fake and wayy to long. And I swear the nails really did it for me. All my life I was thinking that investing in your nails was just garbage. Has nothing to do with anything that will make you attractive, right?

But then I notice that porn starts tend to have some *serious* fake nails. So, my question is do porn star nails do anything for you? Does it make anything hotter?

Im hoping so! I srsly want to get myself some french tipped super long nails with glitter and rhinestones on them.

Ha, there used to be a commenter here who was constantly talking about nails, obviously a fetishist. As for the typical guy, I’d say nails are probably a minor sexual signal, though going overboard may put you in the high-maintenance whore category.

To take your inquiry seriously: nails and teeth are indicators of attention to detail. Like the chrome on your car or the crown-molding in your house — if you get these final upgrades, chances are good that everything else is upgraded to the max.

In other words, mani, pedi, teeth whiteners and straighteners, are force multipliers, most bang for the buck. Shit hot.

Have you ever heard of kegel exercises? If done conscientiously a woman can be good as new or almost good as new. Some doctors are also willing to put in an extra “honeymoon” stitch after delivery and can even make it tighter than it was before.

Though like 25% of women have their children through c section so their V wouldn’t even be affected by that.

Agreed – one is not so bad. It’s the multiples that tend to do the most damage. Some I have banged had the proverbial “hotdog in the hallway” feel – not pleasing. The irreconcilable stretch marks are, for the incorrigible aesthete such as myself, tough to get past as well. Surprisingly, some women never get said stretch marks.

My girl child was taught by me from the age of 4 to ride horses, shoot guns, and, most importunatety – to drive well. By drive well I mean to put up lap times that under the harsh light of G meter analysis reveal constant .5 g or better net mean average cornering/braking/ accelerating forces.
The dear sweet child, she got it right in a heartbeat.
HER given name translates into ENGLISH as gods own LIONESS.
I used to worry about her: Once, but no more.

[…] Based on conventional wisdom, a woman should prefer a guy with decision A, over a guy with decision B, over a guy with decision C, over a guy with a decision D. Guy A is a single guy looking to be a family man, what more can women Source: Chateau Heartiste […]

Look, if you don’t live this in your own life, then you really have no commentary worthy of other men’s attention in the manosphere; from Xsplat:

Flash forward to today. I own the remote, and watch whatever the hell I want, when I want. All of the house is mine. Every inch of it. My live in companions are guests, no matter how much tenure they have accumulated. I let the girl have a favored side of the bed, and I’ll allow her to place decorations and photos here and there, but that’s as far as it goes. My whole house is my man cave. The girl adjust to it – I don’t adjust to her. And if the girl tries to throw around moods I tell her to get out of my house. No moods allowed. There has been no nagging in my life for a long time – since I was married, I think. It’s not tolerated, and is abruptly cut off with a “don’t nag me”, even for speech that just infringes on nagging territory.

A girl i’d been seeing every month (she’d travel 2h distance and stay over at mine) used to tell me to keep my wknd free from any other hoes because she was coming over. I would play along with it an hint that i dont believe in commitment. She took comfort in the fact that i would nvr commit to anyone so i would always be available to her.

Whenever she would hold my hand i’d look at her funny and she’d say ‘we’r not suppose to do that are we’ and pull back as a joke.

Ironically im the one who ended up really liking her and she has a lot of guy friends (tomboy) so i’d get jelous but never show any of these feelings to her. She told me once ‘i’m the only guy she hasnt been able to figure out’.

I think thats how guys should play relationships..if you’re a romantic at heart you have to resist the temptation of showing too much interest. She’ll come back for more.

The study found out that in a free sexual environment, and looking at my friends who are the secret lovers of a number of committed women, we are in a free sexual environment, the more plates you are spinning, the more likely it is that the plates you are spinning have you as the only plate. As a corollary, if you are having sexual relations with one person, the more likely it was that you were one of the multiple plates your partner was spinning.

Where the causality lies I don’t know.

The thing with looking for non-commitment first and foremost is that even the girls who are looking for commitment know that they have to give up the goods in order to compete with the other girls who are “having fun”; and it does not scare off or lower your value in the eyes of the fun girls.

No matter how much they cry about the word slut, the “girls for fun” feel that a man committing to their used wares is of lower value. All the slutwalkers deep down know that a man committing to the village cycle is not a worthy man of the village cycle saddle. Slutwalks do not change this one prime fact: Treat a slut like a decent woman, you’ll never get to fuck the slut for free.. (slut madonna dichotomy ignored here)

A man’s imprinted idea of female sexuality gets destroyed when he hears of women shagging married men because “he will not be a nuisance after sex”, and then demanding minimum three paid for dinner dates from uncommitted men looking for a relationship, oh, after each date she blew the drummer of the band in the dinner venue.

How the study ties to the presented theory in the post:

A man looking for noncommited relationships is signalling he is willing to spin plates. this willingness comes from the knowledge of ability. This translates into “he can spin plates” which translates into “Ooooooohhhhh, he is hot”

Looking for relationship, unless he finds the, in my estimate less than one in ten girls who take that as a positive trait, he will be seen as “let me try the drummer first, if he does not commit, I’ll give this sucker a three date chance…”

Great comment, Finn, and this squares with my experiences as a plate-spinner. My longest-spinning plate has been exclusive with me for a long time now, though more short-term plates have been all over the map.

Do you have a link or an article title on that study? I’d be interested in parsing this data a bit more as well.

As a Sigma, this is actually a big problem for me in attempting a LTR. I can pull a 10 from a high value Alpha pretty much at will. The natural mystery, introversion, and high natural T is like chick heroin. I’m pretty tuned in though, so I know when I start sweating my ass off in a social environment, there is a bitch in heat close by. They always start to orbit inside of 20 min. and they are always amazing 20-24 year olds.

Hell, sometimes if I know I wont be more than a few hours, I don’t even wear deodorant just to see reactions. Now that will get you laid same night ALL the time. Problem is, because I can pull and show indifference, they never stick around. Self-ejection is the rule, they are always assuming I can do better (and I can of course).

At 37, I figure i wont settle down until I’m 50 with a 30 year old solid 10. When whatever I got working fades out.

Co-sign on the personal aroma thing. Most of you men have absolutely no idea how important smell is to women, and the ones that have half a clue will assume that means they should bathe in Axe. WRONG. Unless you have mad B.O./swamp ass/stinky feet, you’ll do so much better if you’re a little sweaty and unshowered. And if you can’t stand to do that, at least go with unscented deodorant and no cologne.

Those of you in LTRs, do you know what your girlfriend does when you’re out of town? She fishes one of your dirty undershirts out of the laundry and sleeps with it. Either she wears it, cuddles with it, or (my fave) uses it like a pillowcase. She won’t admit it to you, but she will tell me, your friendly neighborhood manjaw, all about it. I’ve polled my female friends and, to a one, we ALL do this.

A friend of mine (who is a female) is about 38 and single. She has a 2 year old and just started dating recently after leaving the father of her kid over a year ago (lost weight, yadda yadda). She starts dating this dude and I get a text msg from her last night and the first thing it says without me even asking is this:

“He makes $65,000 year, but has to pay like $2000/mo in childsupport, so he had to move back in with his parents”

I couldn’t stop thinking about this fucking blog (which I never comment on, but always read) ever since.

Vox Day has an alternate male ranking that expands beyond just alpha/beta to include social as well as sexual hierarchy. A Sigma is “the outsider who doesn’t play the social game and manage to win at it anyhow.”

There is a big fallacy, or at least an assumed premise, to this game-theory argument: that a man cannot convey his interest in looking for a relationship without indicating lower value. This is incorrect and inconsistent with the principles of frame control.

An objectively attractive male (status, looks, career, charisma) should have no trouble evaluating females as possible mates. Of course you don’t approach interactions with the mindset of “oh gee, i hope you’ll be my girlfriend”, just as a man looking for sex should not convey the mindset of “oh please have sex with me.”

In my very limited experience, a well-placed question/neg that conveys you are evaluating the worth/virtue of a woman (or questioning it), puts the woman in an immediately submissive role. She will attempt to qualify herself to you. She may be hesitant to give you a same-night drunken lay, but when you do get naked with her, she will give a worthy performance. Once a woman concludes that you are high value, and that she has a shot as a legit gf, she will often give excellent oral and present well for doggy.

Again, context is everything. If you’re a younger man, a college student renting an apartment or something, then this type of approach is not playing to your strengths. But if you are middle aged/older and successful, I can report that I have had some succes with this approach. But YOU CANNOT BE NEEDY. If you drop frame and show incongruency for a second, you will likely be perceived as pathetic. In my own experience, I don’t have that problem because I’m acting congruent with what I actually want. And if a girl flakes or doesn’t indicate an interest in qualifying herself, then I move along to the next one. But in my experience, even the sluttiest girls feel that deep down they are a pure princess/wife material for the right man that comes along.

“She may be hesitant to give you a same-night drunken lay, but when you do get naked with her, she will give a worthy performance. Once a woman concludes that you are high value, and that she has a shot as a legit gf, she will often give excellent oral and present well for doggy.”

This is true, but unfortunately it’s usually a short-term reward. She’ll perform like a rockstar, but you’ll get “The Ultimatum” (I have to be your exclusive girlfriend or else I can’t do this anymore”) MUCH faster.

You’ll also piss them off a LOT more when, faced with The Ultimatum, you DON’T make them your GF lol Because then she thought she had a chance and now it’s either that there’s something wrong with her which leads to her bawling her eyes out and ending up more insecure and psychologically fucked up, or that you’re an asshole liar horrible person and she smashes your car windows in for using her like that and all her friends and family hate you and want to kick your ass.

But I do agree with what you’re saying, there is a way to be looking for a relationship from a place of high value. It can just be more drama than it’s worth to put it out in the open. :)

This would be consistent with my experiences. Most of my relationships do not end well. But that’s life. In being genuine about my interest, or lack thereof, I get to know women in-depth, we have some intense sex, and if it doesn’t work out I’m typically not left wondering if “she was the one that got away…” To each their own. I don’t have the patience to chat up some girl that i’m not in to or that I know is not going to work out. I value my time and a good night’s sleep.

Ok, so here’s a recovering beta question, I’ve been thrown off seduction tracks in the past when, in the bedroom, pre sexy time, the girl’s various ASD rises. “I don’t do this without commitment” or “I only do this with special people.”

[Heartiste: “Do what?”

Call her bluff. She’ll stammer.

Then say “Where is your mind?”]

Stops (stopped) me in my tracks many times. I suppose it’s ok to sled on and not worry about it or is there a way to get the kill without losing good guy points?

[The usual advice, and which I agree with, is to verbally agree with her while nonverbally pushing toward a coital conclusion. If that doesn’t work, ignore her ASD and go do something else while she stews on the bed. The trick is to do it without seeming like you’re pissed at her.]

Something more like “you can have me but I want [commitment]?” I had hand on wet cooter when this nugget dropped. maybe asd was wrong term she was good to go and blurted out overly overt relationship desires.

[Heartiste: Ah ok. This is a little different. She’s playing a stronger game. In some situations, it pays to just go Don Draper on a girl. Your hand is up her puss, she’s breathing heavy, all the pieces are in place to close the deal, and she blurts out something totally incongruent with the moment… sometimes crap like that is just a massive final shit test when all she really wants is for you to whisper Ssshhh and take her.
If that is not an option, or you feel uncomfortable doing that, then the next best thing is to agree with but then tell her you prefer to see how things develop before giving signs of commitment. Explain that your commitment is not to be taken lightly and just given to any girl; that you have to click with a girl first.]

IMO there is too little focus on the COMFORT ‘forging’ (heh) stage of seduction. There’s an earlier post here at CH that discusses it somewhere…search it.

A solid comfort forging/emotional bonding with the subject dissipates one of the core social FEARS of women which is FEELING like they’re being used…not wanted.

Moving too quick without some type of emotional CONNECTION (god damn it I get so annoyed when bitches say we had a ‘connection’ …heh) and sure enough LMR will fucking zap her vagina dry and freak her the fuck out when you rub the outer edge of the pussy lip or whatever.

There’s also theories that LMR in women = AA in men. Like women get that fight/flight response when they’re excited about getting dick…than freak out. Like when us men approach an attractive woman…

Funny thing is that when you’re able to gain a high level of competency in the COMFORT process to mitigate LMR you’re manipulatively/persuasively triggering emotions in the subject to pave the way to blowing your load in or on her and enjoying a great session.

…don’t let the culturally programmed useless pangs of guilt obscure your desire to be a man. It’s guaranteed that each woman you successfully enjoy a seduction with has emotionally devastated multiple beta men who only thought their generous white knight bullshit would secure faithfulness and commitment.

is to verbally agree with her while nonverbally pushing toward a coital conclusion
1000%

“don’t even try and have sex with me I don’t even know you” [grab, hard make out, push her away] “knock it off.”

Hey man just wanted to say good looks on all your comments/contributions here. Your stuff you posted regarding texting (last year, I think) was incredibly helpful. I’m still a beginner but holy hell did you, YR & Shocker help out a lot. Like shining a flashlight.

One thing I don’t understand when it comes to talking to girls. There’s this whole thing about sending short texts and being laconic, but then there’s the whole rapport part. If being laconic and sending short texts shows value, then how are you supposed to have a real conversation? Obviously you can’t always be like that, but doesn’t talking too much make you look too invested? This goes for in person too, wtf are you supposed to even say? I always thought that talking too much= friend zone, but how else are you supposed to open a girl?

There ya go. It’s a compendium of Text game with wisdom brought to you by YaReally, Shocker and Ripp. It has helped me immensely and I was having trouble as I was in the shorter is better whilst texting camp.

Shorter is better is similar to never buying a girl a drink. Solid advice for noobs to start because before that They are sending long texts and buying drinks from the wrong frame.

“If guy D is the highest value guy, the only way you’ll look like him is if you use a combination of indirect-don’t chase game. That said, guy C will have a higher notch count. Guy D will be able to do more with his girls than guy C will, physically and emotionally.

You can also simulate a “seek no commitment” outlook by treating the woman poorly.”

That technique works great if you are searching for girls in a certain section of the ‘economic game value’ chart. Females who stop traffic with their looks AND haven’t had an endless parade of ballsacks on their faces (sloppy seconds is a cockolded position, just sayin’) get taken quickly, and they actually have to be pursued.

I don’t know whether the reality for our species is cyclical, but the more important message of Dawkins’ work is this: when one gender finds it advantageous to change its strategy, the benefit to that gender does not last very long. The reason is that the change gives the other gender the opportunity to benefit by changing its strategy too.

For me, the really scary thing is that this war between the sexes not only predates civilisation, it predates the human race. It predates apes, even mammals. The games and strategies that dominate so much of our adult lives proceed from biologically anisogamous sexual reproduction, something that evolved hundreds of millions of years ago. We are doomed by our biology to want to follow scripts that are older than the dinosaurs.

There are no arrangements that can be fair or ideal for both genders. There will always be the pain of discord with our biology.

Can someone please re-upload the packet immoral posted a while back? His link is broken, but I wish to download it to learn from the great minds, YaReally, Shocker and Ripp. Please post your upload link in these comments if anyone does this, thank you.