Dovrebanen wrote:When Edward left I didn't blame him. Did I cry? Yes...Did I want him not to do it? Yes...I felt his pain when I read ch 3 even if it was in Bella's POV. I could so clearly imagine what was going on inside his head. And with the dangers he saw himself bringing into Bella's life from day one, he just couldn't live with himself if he stayed and something happened to her. It all started with himself being the first threat to her life. He came so close to killing her. And then it was James, and Edward almost lost Bella. And he saw that as all his fault. And when his own brother attacked, that really made his decision for him. And he felt wrong for ever allowing himself to get involved in her life, when he was such a threat to it. He couldn't see that he was actually the one saving her life over and over again. He saved her from the van, from the guys in Port Angeles, from James and from Jasper. But he saw it as just making up for the dangers that he brought upon her. So with this type of thinking, he had to leave because he loved her. Edward chose to be selfless, and give her a chance to have a normal life. And he probably downplayed the depth of Bella's feeling for him, and the happiness he brought to her life. I wish he would have seen how happy he made her, but going with his ideas of himself, leaving was the only decision that was right for him at the time.

I agree with you diane, that if Edward was selfish he would have changed Bella to moment he had the chance. He had the chance in Twilight, to just let the venom spread. He could have done it at prom. He could have done it after Jasper attacked. But he didn't. Because he didn't want that for her. She was ready (or supposedly) and would have gone along with it. And she never would have blamed him for turning her. But still he didn't do it. He said that for him it would be easier if she was like him (less breakable), but not in a million years would he do that to please himself. So in my opinion, selflessness is one of the most defining character traits in Edward.

Dovrebanen~ I love the way you state this. I agree 100 % that Edward's selflessness is one of his defining character traits, just as it is one of Bella's. It is one of those things that they share in common that makes their relationship work so beautifully. Of course, it also causes them some problems when they don't discuss their selfless impulses with each other. What I find so honestly beautiful about Edward's selflessness is that he claims to be such a selfish creature, sees himself as completely giving in to his selfish nature in even being with Bella. But in the end, turning her is, in my opinion, one of his most selfless acts. He turns her to save her existence. Yes, he revels in the fact that he will have her with him forever. But, he turns her to save her, for her and for their daughter.

I don't think anyone could possibly maintain that Edward is an essentially selfish creature. I don't always like Edward, in fact, I don't find him very interesting or likable at all, but I do know that at his core, he is an incredibly selfless person.

Out of all of Edward’s traits his selflessness brings me the greatest frustration, which is quite a contradiction, because it is also one of his most endearing traits. Sometimes, I just want to shake him a little and kindly scold him for being so dang selfless. This properly doesn’t make sense because you usually scold people for people selfish, but his selflessness and especially where Bella is concerned, it allows her to take him for granted and completely disregard his feelings, and thoughts at times.

"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

amethyst wrote:Out of all of Edward’s traits his selflessness brings me the greatest frustration, which is quite a contradiction, because it is also one of his most endearing traits. Sometimes, I just want to shake him a little and kindly scold him for being so dang selfless. This properly doesn’t make sense because you usually scold people for people selfish, but his selflessness and especially where Bella is concerned, it allows her to take him for granted and completely disregard his feelings, and thoughts at times.

Well Edward was only 17 when he turned and then he only had his family, so I really think that when he finally met someone that just turned his world completely upside down all he wanted to do is give. Maybe its because men today just are not way, that frustrates you so much Amethyst. I know I never met anyone like him. But if you went for 90 yrs and then found your soul mate I think you would maybe do the overboard thing that Edward does and not even notice. I dnn't think Edward even thinks he is selfless he was so hung up on being a monster and all about what was wrong about him. Only when Bella came into his life and showed him how much good he had in him it was just natural trait that he was born with maybe.

Jazz Girl wrote: What I find so honestly beautiful about Edward's selflessness is that he claims to be such a selfish creature, sees himself as completely giving in to his selfish nature in even being with Bella.

It is so strange to read how he sees himself as this essentially selfish person. He can't see himself like Bella sees him, which is as the most caring and selfless person she has ever met. For a long time he can only see the dangers, and feels responsible for them. So it is fascinating how a person can perform so many selfless acts, and still see himself as selfish.

amethyst wrote:Out of all of Edward’s traits his selflessness brings me the greatest frustration, which is quite a contradiction, because it is also one of his most endearing traits. Sometimes, I just want to shake him a little and kindly scold him for being so dang selfless. This properly doesn’t make sense because you usually scold people for people selfish, but his selflessness and especially where Bella is concerned, it allows her to take him for granted and completely disregard his feelings, and thoughts at times.

Me too! At times I just yelled at my book: Edward, would you please start fighting for yourself??? You can't be this selfless all the time! I just wanted him to not let his love for Bella make him into this pushover who would always take everything sitting down. I could have slapped him just to get him to realize what he was doing.I agree diane, that Edward probably doesn't even realize how selfless he is being. He only wants the very best for Bella, and that is the most natural thing in the world for him. I really wanted him to stand up for himself. But still, his selflessness is one of the traits that I admire the most in him.

Edward is essentially selfish. Yes, he protects Bella from harm, but everything that they do as a couple is on his terms. He dictated where they'd live after they got married, when Bella got turned, by whom she got turned. He controlled every kiss and every intimate encounter - he even attempts to dictate whom she can and cannot see! Do these sound like the actions of a selfless being? I don't believe they do.

It seems to me that Edward's selflessness is, in a way, a vehicle with which he combats his nature, which he believes is a monster.

Think about it - vampires kill innocent human beings to satisfy their own thirst. Does it get more selfish?

I think Edward sees being selfless to a fault as being the way to counteract his vampirehood.

Now, I'm not saying it's an act AT ALL If he weren't a fundamentally selfless person, he wouldn't feel the need to override his selfish instincts. But to be selfless to the extent that amethyst describes, to the point where not only does it hurt him but it begins to hurt other people, is not a form of selflessness that occurs naturally.

This, in my opinion, isn't a bad thing. Just an interesting insight into the mind of a fundamentally selfless person who has taken it to the extreme.

Knives is right though. Edward's selfish nature DOES come out when the circumstances include Bella. Changing her, dictating who she can see, lying to keep her blissfully ignorant. But I don't think that means he is an inherently selfish creature.

Knives wrote:Edward is essentially selfish. Yes, he protects Bella from harm, but everything that they do as a couple is on his terms. He dictated where they'd live after they got married, when Bella got turned, by whom she got turned. He controlled every kiss and every intimate encounter - he even attempts to dictate whom she can and cannot see! Do these sound like the actions of a selfless being? I don't believe they do.

I would be willing to accept that he could be selfish at times but not for those reasons… I don’t understand how he dictated where him and Bella should live, had they even ever talked about that? If I recall correctly, Esme built them the cottage as a gift and both him and Bella gladly accepted. As for your second example, Edward had no date to when Bella could and could not be turned and by whom she could be turned. Her conversion to from human to vampire had to be secured--it is essential that who ever turned Bella had perfect self control. He was perfectly fine with Carlisle turning her. Alice, she wasn’t even sure of herself… she, Edward, and Carlisle would never take the risk even though Bella gladly would have.

“ever kiss and every intimate encounter” … did you not just say that he “protects her from harm”? that is one thing that needs to be dictated (for lack of better word) to ensure Bella’s safety. He doesn’t do it because he wants to, rather because he has to.

As for your third example, I just can’t agree-- for someone to be selfish, their action or motivation needs to benefit themselves. He was doing it for Bella, and had every intention of keeping her safe. Sure, his actions are considered indisputably wrong, out of boundaries etc. by many people but I just can’t agree that it is selfish.

"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

Personally, amethyst, I totally agree with you here, but I can also see where Knives is coming from.

Bella's safety and protection were, of course, Edward's main focus. But his need to keep her entire life completely risk free at the expense of her free will - that was selfish. It scared him, he didn't like being scared, and he eliminated the thing that was scaring him.

However, he realized it was selfish, and stopped. That's where the difference lies.