Don't call him, he didn't leave a message because he wants to pursue you. He prolly didn't want to leave a vm because he wants to be an initiator. I will call a girl and not leave a message but that's because I want to talk to her, not leave a message and then wait for a call back.

Take it from a guy he is prolly waiting to try again at another time when he can talk to you.

I think you will often find posters happy to break things down for you that way if you can get over the tendency to rant pointlessly about entitlement and just ask.

You are correct, it is possible that some good guys have slipped through the cracks by my taking their lack of pointed pursuit as lack of interest. But I'm not lonely, I'm not crying into my beer, and that is how life works, people have to present themselves well when they are going for something they want. I definitely don't think it's only players who have learned to leave messages when they call a woman for a date; it really is considered common courtesy by many, many people.

ahhh still think you have a sense of entitlement. Do still appreciate the breakdown. "Have to present themselves well".

Players will be the ones leaving the messages every time. This at the very least seems obvious to me. Players will make less "****ups".... if not leaving a message is a ****up to begin with.

I think it can be said that anyone who expects a call-back (from someone they don't know well yet) without leaving a message has a sense of entitlement.

I would assume most guys even semi in-the-know wouldn't expect a callback in this situation. This is why I think it'd be a nice gesture if you actually liked the guy to call him back. If you are luke warm I can see why being so meh works.

I would assume most guys even semi in-the-know wouldn't expect a callback in this situation. This is why I think it'd be a nice gesture if you actually liked the guy to call him back. If you are luke warm I can see why being so meh works.

That seems backwards to me. If the fellow actually liked me and wanted to hear from me, he should leave a message. He was weird first. And that weirdness led to him not getting a nice callback from me, in a natural fashion. It's not like I sit around at home and deduct points and think about this. I just don't put much effort into calling people I don't yet know well who have shown low communication skills in this way. . . because it is tedious. If I really liked the guy for some reason, I suppose I would call him back eventually, but I've never really liked a guy after 2 dates and considered him a vital part of my life yet. That seems. . . odd. Like I said, if a SO called me, I don't need a message. We're going to talk soon anyway. But, as a general rule, I don't check my Call Log to return calls.

There's no entitlement involved. I don't feel "entitled" to a message or "entitled" to even be called (unless the fellow SAID he was going to call, and then I feel a bit entitled, but not surprised if it doesn't happen, because people should do what they say they will; but I don't get angry; I just discard the experience like everybody else and move along). I do think if you want a call back, you should leave a message. That's why voicemail exists. This applies to everything, including dating. But it's not because I'm "entitled" to it---it's because it's polite, normal, direct communication.

If the fellow actually liked me and wanted to hear from me, he should leave a message. He was weird first. And that weirdness led to him not getting a nice callback from me, in a natural fashion. ... If I really liked the guy for some reason, I suppose I would call him back eventually, but I've never really liked a guy after 2 dates and considered him a vital part of my life yet. But it's not because I'm "entitled" to it---it's because it's polite, normal, direct communication.

It isn't weird to not leave a voicemail message after calling a girl. Lots of girls won't even bother to call a girl. I'm saying you would be better served actually calling back the guys who did well/you liked more. It's not even a sign that you realllly like the guy, if I was the dude I'd just think you were cool for calling me back. That's basically it. The screen you are putting up to me is silly. It (1) will result in a higher percentage of players getting callbacks than nonplayers (I assume this is a bad thing, if it's a good thing then carry on), and (2) as a guy I can tell you isn't actually a reflection of how much I like a girl AT ALL. It's a reflection of how willing I am to leave a voicemail. Just check through all the posts left. In fact the only guys saying they would leave a voicemail are doing it because they know some girls like that sort of thing. Not to say leaving a voicemail is or isn't the best idea at this stage.

Why is your level of having to callback so high? This isn't a huge sign that you are in love with him. Why not callback the good dates and leave the bad dates. I don't see what you really accomplish not giving a callback to guys you are even above-average on (or whatever positive threshold you chose). Like the more worthwhile guys are going to call you fewer times than the less worthwhile guys simply because they aren't as needy/etc....

The only true problem I can see with an unsolicited callback is you feel you now have to accept any date offers he gives you just to be congruent with being interested enough to call him. Whereas if he had left a voicemail and you called him back you could "claim" not being responsible (which I realize is HUGE for girls)... afterall you are just being polite rather than option (1). But after me explaining this is has to be obvious you are doing the exact same thing as in (1) it just isn't as plainly obvious as in that case.

If the screen seemed worthwhile to me I could maybe understand. It doesn't seem like it would do the things you intend it to.

I think it can be said that anyone who expects a call-back (from someone they don't know well yet) without leaving a message has a sense of entitlement.

This.

I'm struck with the oddness of your assuming that only players would leave a woman a message when they call, putting aside the unlikelihood that I would ever accept a date from a player in the first place.

In my many years of dating, most men have called, and some have not. Of the callers, most by far either left a message or text, or called back shortly after. Very shortly. Because these are hallmarks of common courtesy, and ways to indicate that the woman is a high priority to you.

Lol I'm guessing you didn't go back and read the messages in this thread. I'm also guessing you decided to win this arguement you would make a strawman out of my side of the story and say I said ONLY players call back. Obviously I didn't say that.

I'm clearly immature though and not trying to help you out with picking out the right ones who are calling you rather than the wrong ones.

If I were to group them I would assume:
(1) Players will leave a voicemail at some point (likely the last call as this is ideal) BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT WORKS! Thinking you are above players is hilarious.

(2) The needy/clingy ones will leave messages, call you endlessly, etc. This is obviously a bad thing. It results because you are their only option. There are obviously varying levels of extremes and you won't always pickup on a needy guy immediately.

(3) Some guys without any hangups will call 2-3 times, may or may not leave a message depending on how comfortable they are about leaving messages.

(4) Other random guys somewhere inbetween groups (1) and (2) will leave messages because this is their communication style.

(5) Other guys will leave messages because they know girls like this sort of thing. They would be borderline players I guess.

I would say, just from the vast amounts of voicemessages I personally get from guys (this means almost none), that very few guys fit into group 4. Which seems to me to be the group you are trying to target.

Which is also why I don't understand the screen. I don't see how the screen works to keep those guys in.

It isn't weird to not leave a voicemail message after calling a girl. . . . In fact the only guys saying they would leave a voicemail are doing it because they know some girls like that sort of thing. Not to say leaving a voicemail is or isn't the best idea at this stage.

How old are you? It is weird not to leave a voicemail if you want someone to call back. People don't leave a voicemail because (a) either they don't need a call back, (b) They know they'll talk to you eventually, or (c) They're going to call again to try to catch you. A voicemail is a system designed so that people can leave messages that say, "Call me back." What is your obsession with people not leaving them? Is this some new fad? I'm only 25, but even in my generation, most folks use voicemail (or a follow-up text instead) in this way. Once you start working and leaving VM professionally, it becomes even more ingrained in you that it is simply a polite, normal way of communicating.
[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady vs Panda

I'm struck with the oddness of your assuming that only players would leave a woman a message when they call, putting aside the unlikelihood that I would ever accept a date from a player in the first place.

In my many years of dating, most men have called, and some have not. Of the callers, most by far either left a message or text, or called back shortly after. Very shortly. Because these are hallmarks of common courtesy, and ways to indicate that the woman is a high priority to you.

Yes. I'm younger than her (I think) but my experience, even at 25, has been the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dispatch3d

(1) Players will leave a voicemail at some point (likely the last call as this is ideal) BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT WORKS! Thinking you are above players is hilarious.

No, really, some women can spot players a mile away. Thinking players are infallible is hilarious. I'm not saying I've never been on a date with one (have) but it's been rare, and I've never actually become attached to one or "gotten played". And I spot them quite easily now.

I suppose whether or not a player leaves a voicemail will depend on the level of his investment with the game with that particular woman. But, yes, players do things they believe will "work". That doesn't mean all healthy, normal people do the opposite; in fact, most of the keenest players are trying to imitate healthy, normal people.

Quote:

(2) The needy/clingy ones will leave messages, call you endlessly, etc. This is obviously a bad thing. It results because you are their only option. There are obviously varying levels of extremes and you won't always pickup on a needy guy immediately.

Call me endlessly = turnoff. Leave a message = normal. The two are not related. In fact, if you leave a message, you now have no reason to call me endlessly.

I don't think every time I am a guy's only focus that I am his only option, though I don't expect to be a sole focus after a 2nd date, as he isn't mine. It takes less than 1 minute to leave a voicemail. Thus, he has plenty of other time to do other things, and I need not be a sole focus for him to do so.

Quote:

(3) Some guys without any hangups will call 2-3 times, may or may not leave a message depending on how comfortable they are about leaving messages.

Calling back to try to catch me doesn't bother me perse, though I do find discomfort with leaving a message (and/or texting instead, if you really don't want to talk to the machine) to be an unattractive quality. It's not something one should be "uncomfortable" with. It's a normal, basic means of human communication. I used to have to call people all throughout the day at work and leave loads of messages. There is nothing scary about it.

Quote:

(4) Other random guys somewhere inbetween groups (1) and (2) will leave messages because this is their communication style.

These are the guys I date.

Quote:

(5) Other guys will leave messages because they know girls like this sort of thing. They would be borderline players I guess.

Or they know it's normal, human, social behavior. You left that one out. We do loads of other things because it's polite, social behavior, like say "Please" and "Thank you," and "Excuse me," instead of bumping into people while walking, and such. This is the same to me. I wouldn't date a guy who couldn't understand why he should say, "Excuse me," instead of just bumping into someone lightly and expecting them to get the hint either.

Quote:

I would say, just from the vast amounts of voicemessages I personally get from guys (this means almost none), that very few guys fit into group 4. Which seems to me to be the group you are trying to target.

Which is also why I don't understand the screen. I don't see how the screen works to keep those guys in.

The way we communicate with our friends who already know us is not the same as the way we communicate with new people we are seeing. I don't always leave a voicemail when I call my friends either. But they know me. And we will talk eventually. If I expected a call back right away, I would.

But, really, I'll be honest. I don't "screen in." I "screen out" if anything. This doesn't mean I nitpick at guys, but I don't leap all over myself to find ways to attract more guys or keep more around. . . there are loads, and there are always good ones about, and I'm doing fine.

I'm on the fence with him and perhaps he is the same way with me. Had he left a VM then I'd probably called him back. But him not leaving a VM is just another point deduction for him and he didn't have too many to begin with...

During the early stages of dating, we get to know the other person to see if there is an attraction, but it's important to communicate to the other person what are our preferences and expectations for certain things. It's perfectly fine if your preference is that the guy leaves a VM when he calls. Nothing wrong with that.

However, just because someone doesn't act exactly in the way we expect them to act during the early stages of dating, it does not mean that we should reject them. How one should act in particular situations may be obvious and common sense, but in other situations how to act can go either way. Normally, one leaves a VM, but there are circumstances when one would not. It's not the crime of the century that he did not leave you a VM. For all you know, maybe he preferred to speak with you directly to convey his interest and to ask you out again and maybe he thought leaving a VM would have sounded cold-hearted and impolite. Only he knows his reasons. But, instead of waiting for him to follow up, you're deducting "points" against him because his failure to leave a VM did not meet your uncommunicated preferences and expectations. If he acts like this mutlple times and if it is that important to you that the person you are dating leaves you a VM when they call, then it is your responsibility to communicate that to him and see how he responds. If he then continues to not leave a VM, it may be that you two have imcompatible communcation styles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by conehead

Ok so I went ahead and texted him that I enjoyed spending time with him but feel we are better off as just friends. He replied back 15 minutes later that he is fine with that. He said he enjoyed spending time with me too and thinks I'm an amazing person and hope we can still hang out. How ironic, just when I thought I didnt want to see him because he doesnt make me feel amazing.

So it turns out that he actually thinks you're amazing, but instead of being happy, you're rejecting him. Don't you think having a guy who thinks you're amazing is much better than having a guy leave you a VM when he calls? The irony here is that while you're deducting points because his communications skills don't meet your preferences/expectations, you have not communicated your own preferences/expections to him regarding communcations between the two of you.

I think it's actually sad that you're giving up on him over something that you do not know the reason why he did not leave a message. Yes, he would have been better off to have left a VM, but for whatever reason he did not, but why reject him for that? You have a guy who actually is interested and thinks you are amazing, and yet you reject him. I realize you were on the fence because of other factors, but since the VM issue is what your initial post was about, I get the impression that the VM issue was a deciding factor for you.

Why not give him another chance and this time communicate to him that you would prefer that he leave you a VM when he calls?

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