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Thats the bottom line for me. I could get you to look at any question as to why you would want to smoke pot but at the end of the day if you want to do it, you will. So all I can do is answer the question.

That being said, Mary's comment gave me a lovely image of Mary (and I don't know Mary so it was actually a short fiery spirited women with dark curly hair) stepping up onto a soapbox and proclaiming vehemently against soapboxes and their evils. While that is not her intent, it is the image it brought to mind. A cartoon that made me smile.

And that image made me smile! I'll cop to the "fiery spirited", all right -- how could I not? But my hair is light and very very straight. And, yes, I was indeed soapboxing about soapboxes. So, time to take my own medicine and bow out. Thanks for the nice words, David

I didnt notice if the OP posted again, and some of the posts I did gloss over, but to be fair OP did not ask if its OK to be high at the dojo while training. The question is specifically "should you smoke marijuana on your aikido journey".

If forced to estimate, I would say my Aikido jouney is around 5% in the dojo. I have some expereience with this from the past and although I am who I am since I've been who I've been, I can say quite certainly THC is NOT required for enlightenment. Another thing I can say for sure is that the more you think you need it (or any substance) the more you should avoid it.

To use a metaphor: Wine is not bad in itself, and some claim it can be healthy, but an alcoholic should avoid it at all costs.

I'm going to try and avoid a morality discussion. I think it's fair to say that a good martial artist takes care of his body. So when dealing with a substance that scientific consensus says is harmful to the body, a martial artist had better make sure there is a darn good reason to put it in his body before he does so. So the question is, is there a really good reason for an aikidoka to smoke marijuana?

Hi Matthew, this thread is resurrected. Question: "Is there really a good reason for an aikidoka to drink scotch or smoke tobacco?" Probably not but I know of a few high ranking folks who do just that.

Hi Matthew, this thread is resurrected. Question: "Is there really a good reason for an aikidoka to drink scotch or smoke tobacco?" Probably not but I know of a few high ranking folks who do just that.

I've known of a few highly ranked public officials that have committed adultery, does that justify the acts of adultery of the general public?

Hi Maggie, I think drinking and smoking (depending on cultural context) doesn't equate with adultery. What I'm saying is these are personal choices and to generalize that aikidoka somehow are, or should have, a "higher consciousness" for lack of a better term, is an erroneous assumption. Whether you study martial arts, theology, or sit zazen all day in the monastery you are subject to essentially the same temptations as anyone else. At some point we all want/need to escape. Humans, throughout history, have wanted to get high and have found many ways to do so....All this being my personal opinion please take it as such.

The argument being made takes the form, "Two wrongs don't make a right," but this was not the point being made.

Accordingly, and apart from the question of whether smoking pot, drinking whiskey, or huffing a cigar are morally like adultery -- I agree they are not -- another question arises whether there is a meaningful difference between justifying a behavior (e.g., since politician x does y, so can I), and asking folks whether they'd be equally as prepared to condemn a comparable behavior in which they or someone they know also may engage. (E.g., if you're willing to condemn people for x, are you also ready to condemn people for y?) It's an argument for lenity, not one for justification or even for excuse.

Most people, I bet, would agree that at least some of the time someone sensibly could say, "I don't find 'x' justifiable or even a good idea -- nor am I willing to condemn it. Live and let live."

Unless a person is willing to argue that everything which is not "justified" should be "condemned," these describe two different, if overlapping sets of behavior.

There are a number of words in English -- as I am certain there are in most languages-- for someone who doesn't make this kind of distinction, and those words normally are not a compliment. Think of the character of Inspector Javert, persecuting Jean Valjean for stealing a loaf of bread, for example.

Acts that are unjustified and acts that must be condemned simply are not mutually exclusive categories in everyday thought, because most people don't demand moral perfection.

A closer analogy would be, "Should politician x condemn politician y for committing a particular act when x has done the same or its equivalent?" It suggests, I think, a different answer to most people.

Hi Maggie, I think drinking and smoking (depending on cultural context) doesn't equate with adultery. What I'm saying is these are personal choices and to generalize that aikidoka somehow are, or should have, a "higher consciousness" for lack of a better term, is an erroneous assumption. Whether you study martial arts, theology, or sit zazen all day in the monastery you are subject to essentially the same temptations as anyone else. At some point we all want/need to escape. Humans, throughout history, have wanted to get high and have found many ways to do so....All this being my personal opinion please take it as such.

Cheers,

Russ

My point, personal choices aside, smoking, doing drugs and drinking in excess is harmful to the mind and body according to modern science and common sense. In my opinion, the use of drugs to chemically alter yourself is the practice of the un-dedicated and undisciplined.

With that said, one of the codes of Budo is self preservation. Making choices that are unhealthy for you, morally or physically is not working towards your sense of preservation. You can make any personal choice you want, just don't fool yourself into thinking something is "enhancing" your practice of a Budo when by the very definition of Budo it can not.

Messing up metabolic chemicals, screwing up hormone levels and lung capacity will not enhance your practice of any Budo.
Eyes open, mind clear, heart pure, body strong. Slipping into a chemically induced false sense of reality is counter intuitive... in my humble opinion.
You can't practice any Budo without open eyes and clear perception, unclouded, unaltered except through training.

Budo is about improving yourself. If these are temptations the practitioner is working to over come these things, not embracing them.
People have always tried to get high in history. People have a history of doing lots of stupid things.

A closer analogy would be, "Should politician x condemn politician y for committing a particular act when x has done the same or its equivalent?" It suggests, I think, a different answer to most people.

I think he should disapprove regardless of whether or not he's also committed that sin...because it is wrong, objectively.

I've lied before in my life, yet I hate being lied to.
I rather be thought of as a hypocrite then embrace what is objectively wrong.
There's a lot of freedom frankly in accepting your failures, declaring that you are a hypocrite, you are flawed, yet despite those failures you still believe in the better angels of the human nature.

I believe in living and let living. I do not condemn those who use drugs. However, if there is a difference between condemning those who use drugs, and condemning drug use. I can love and man and hate his actions.(Every mother, father, teacher and dog owner knows this expression of love.)
And if the question is "does pot enhance you study of Aikido" the answer is no for reasons I've thus state in previous posts.

Hi Matthew, this thread is resurrected. Question: "Is there really a good reason for an aikidoka to drink scotch or smoke tobacco?" Probably not but I know of a few high ranking folks who do just that.

I know a few high-ranking folks who are arrogant and narrow-minded, but that doesn't mean we as aikidoka shouldn't seek to eliminate our arrogance and narrow-mindedness.

Breath is an essential element of aikido, and smoking tobacco is anything but good for breath. The drinking is a little bit of a fuzzier issue. I don't think there is any conclusive evidence out there that having an occasional drink is harmful to us.

The reason I asked the "good reason" question is that stewardship of one's health is a key responsibility of a martial artist. Those things which are harmful to one's health, therefore, ought only be undertaken by a martial artist for a very good reason, a reason which outweighs the responsibility of stewardship of one's health. Personally, I don't think "because it feels good" is such a reason.

Maggie, how do you decide what is "objectively wrong" and what is subjectively "live and let live"?

It's not deciding, sometimes the sky is just blue, 1+1=2. I don't get to say 1+1=4 and be credible. It is not my choice, it just is. I can also consider 1+1=4 is incorrect without hating the man who mis-computed. I can think that doing drugs is harmful and counter productive to Budo without thinking the drug user is defined by that action.

Anyone who thinks they "decide" what is right or wrong for others is self-righteous. If you want to do drugs I'm not going to decide that was a wrong choice for your life, but I have a right to think scientifically proven self-destructive behavior is very tragic.

You can use drugs all you want Mary, I mean you can get high then do Aikido if you want. I don't think you are a bad person for it. I'll live and let you live to make your own choices as an adult, and I'll make my own. But I have every right to think your choices are idiotic, and I can do so without thinking you yourself as a human being is idiotic.

There is a separation between a man and his mistakes.

There's an old joke: "I build this road, every road brick by brick. But do they call me "JOSE THE ROAD BUILDER?" I build this fence, every foot. But do they call me "JOSE THE FENCE BUILDER?"...NO! They don't....I mean you F*ck ONE GOAT and.."

My point, people are better than their mistakes. I believe this because I'd like to believe that I'm better than my mistakes. Everyone would like to think that of themselves, so I'd like to think of them like that for them as well.

To be fair, the comment I addressed wasn't in response to the OP. Instead, it suggested the previous post, whicht compared pot to other "casual vices" in our society, fairly had invited the question --"Just because one person does something wrong, is that a justification for another person?"

If one accepts the idea that "live and let live" applies to this issue, then it implies smoking pot isn't as bad as adulery or some other "objective sin." It also implies the comment did not invite the rhetorical question in response, because "live and let live" was pretty much the point being made.

To be fair, the comment I addressed wasn't in response to the OP. Instead, it suggested the previous post, whicht compared pot to other "casual vices" in our society, fairly had invited the question --"Just because one person does something wrong, is that a justification for another person?"

If one accepts the idea that "live and let live" applies to this issue, then it implies smoking pot isn't as bad as adulery or some other "objective sin." It also implies the comment did not invite the rhetorical question in response, because "live and let live" was pretty much the point being made.

Bad is bad in my opinion. Regardless of the degree. Yeah smoking pot isn't as bad as cheating on your wife when it comes to the social consequences. But it doesn't make harming yourself any less tragic.
12pm is brighter than 12am... they are both still 12 o'clock.

Doing drugs isn't as bad as killing a child. They are both bad for the human heart. My grandfather said "There's no such thing as a little cyanide." There's no such thing in my opinion as "a little bad for the human heart." It's in your best interest to avoid both murder and drug use to be healthy.

Frankly a rule of thumb, if you know it is bad for you, try avoiding it.
Everyone makes mistakes and has temptation. We will all fail in these areas, but there should be a rational understanding that we shouldn't fool ourselves into believing that there is such a think as "just a little wrong."

While it's possible, perhaps even probably, for alcohol and other drugs to be physiologically bad for us: whether those considerations are outweighed by their psychological benefits; at least when taken in moderate amounts; seems to me to be a personal issue. I know I'd be much more stressed without a few Scotches before I go to take my exams (academic exams, not the other kind). There are potentially costs therefore attached to the choice of inaction. Since it seems clear I must chose something - and if there's no little bad, no little cost; it must also follow that there's no greater bad and no greater cost - how then can you sustain the terms as relevant criteria?

This is a personal choice question. Of course noone should ever be on the tatami under the influence of anything. But if someone wants to use marijuana at the weekend or whenever it's completely up to that person. Why should it bother any of us. What could bother us directly is aikido shihan coming in to the dojo smelling strongly of tobacco. And much sadder is that there is still in some budo circles an unattractive ethos of hard-drinking = cool.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats

Maggie, your logical is fluid and convenient to your arguments but you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.....Your ideas about budo are yours (or maybe your teachers...or something your read in a book...) We take what we can from our teachers but they are human just like us....Yamaguchi smoked like a chimeny, Dobson lived a hard knock life, and there are some living shihan whom "make their personal choices" that, in my mind, don't make them any less of a budoka regardless of the health consequences.

Of course noone should ever be on the tatami under the influence of anything. But if someone wants to use marijuana at the weekend or whenever it's completely up to that person. Why should it bother any of us.

Yep.
Ibuprofen, marijuana,antidepressents, alcohol, sedatives, aspirin.... some need a prescription, some are illegal in some areas of the country/world, some can be bought over the counter...and all have benefits, risks, and side effects and carry no inherent "morality."

The reason I asked the "good reason" question is that stewardship of one's health is a key responsibility of a martial artist. Those things which are harmful to one's health, therefore, ought only be undertaken by a martial artist for a very good reason, a reason which outweighs the responsibility of stewardship of one's health. Personally, I don't think "because it feels good" is such a reason.

Your statement seems logical and obvious, however, I would caution anyone making up "Rules and Responsibilities" of the martial artist.....simply because they don't necessarily apply to everyone (especially in different cultural contexts). Re: the arrogant and narrow minded high ranking folk....do you have nothing to learn from them? Does their arrogance preclude them from being excellent martial artists? If nothing else, you observe them and say "I won't be like that...." Do the living shihan you like their scotch and tobacco get kicked out of the budo club because they don't live up to everyone's standards.....?

It's a given that taking a mind altering substance and then training is a bad idea but, what someone does outside the dojo, the personal choices that person makes, are really not IMHO up for anyone else to judge....until you've walked a mile in their shoes and all that....

Maggie, your logical is fluid and convenient to your arguments but you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.....Your ideas about budo are yours (or maybe your teachers...or something your read in a book...) We take what we can from our teachers but they are human just like us....Yamaguchi smoked like a chimeny, Dobson lived a hard knock life, and there are some living shihan whom "make their personal choices" that, in my mind, don't make them any less of a budoka regardless of the health consequences.

Cheers,

Russ

No one is perfect
I do things every day that are very un-Budo. If perfection was something everyone could achieve easily then why would it be worth striving for.
I think everyone you mentioned is technically falling short of the ideal. But I can't judge because I fall short of the ideal as well.
It is an art practiced by people striving to become better, not gods who find it easy.
I guess that's my point.
Should you smoke pot? No, it won't make you a better Aikidoka, and self preservation is a principle of Budo. Do I think you are a bad person for choosing to smoke pot? No. Everyone has something imperfect about them. But I'm not going to pretend it is okay or helpful to smoke pot and do Aikido either. It is a flaw in the person. I won't villainize the person for it, but I won't extol the act either.
It is your personal choice. People make choices every day that are bad for them, and they are free to do so.

I just believe there is a difference between condemning the act, and condemning the person. I condemn my dog for whizzing on the carpet. But I do not condemn her. I don't judge her as "the carpet whizzer". I instead still allow her on my lap every night.
If you smoke pot I'm not going to call you "pot head" and define your entire person by it. Only a very sick person would want their poor personal choices to define their entire being. All I'm saying here is if we can spare this kind of love to a dog,but not each other?

If I can condemn my dogs bad behavior and still invite her on my lap at night, I can condemn a sensei's choice to kill himself, and still revere the man for his knowledge. I believe defining the person as the whole person, not just the flaws. But the flaws are part of the man, and so are the triumphs. It isn't a choice between the good and the bad. You are saying if I accept the good in the man, I have to ignore the bad stuff he does. Or, if I acknowledge his baddness It some how discredits all his great deeds. It doesn't. Take the man as a whole. His failures in my mind extol his virtues even more. A real man, flawed and hurt and broken, is capable of amazing things.