i... i'm not sure how i feel about this. on the one hand, who cares? it doesn't seem a whole lot different than using a gift card or any other virtual currency. on the other, while i'm not for banning guns, i think that they should be traceable.

Umm...I hate to call bs on this, but most firearms dealers prefer cash or money order when selling online. Most legitimate firearms dealers, that is. I've never even seen any businesses that accept bitcoins. Like ever.

Even as Congress debates gun safety legislation, a flourishing new virtual currency could provide a way around new restrictions by enabling people to buy guns online almost anonymously.Bitcoin,And that's where I stopped reading.

SlothB77:these dealers are also saying that they file the serial numbers off of the guns. i am thinking they are less than legitimate.

Especially since, if you want to disguise the source of the gun, you don't file or grind it off. The number can still be raised. You have the stipple the metal with a punch in order to prevent that.

Of course, defacing the serial number of a firearm is a federal crime, so if you get caught with a gun that has had the serial number actually removed, you're in legal trouble anyway.

A better alternative is to buy a pre-1968 gun that doesn't have a serial number, or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.

Several websites that sell firearms only accept payment in bitcoins, but they are not easy to find. Most reside on what is called the "Deep Web," or sites that can only be accessed via Tor, a special browser that shields the identities of users.

Uh...if you can find it with an easy Google search, it ain't exactly deep. Also, Tor is down right now, or at least no one in my area can access it.

dittybopper:SlothB77: these dealers are also saying that they file the serial numbers off of the guns. i am thinking they are less than legitimate.

Especially since, if you want to disguise the source of the gun, you don't file or grind it off. The number can still be raised. You have the stipple the metal with a punch in order to prevent that.

Of course, defacing the serial number of a firearm is a federal crime, so if you get caught with a gun that has had the serial number actually removed, you're in legal trouble anyway.

A better alternative is to buy a pre-1968 gun that doesn't have a serial number, or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.

And people are surprised? Been to a gun show lately? Christ, it's turned into a sideshow where toothless crazies trade guns for meth and meth lab gear. At least in these parts. Very different from about 8 years ago. Sure, there was the occasional crazy, now it's nothing but crazy.

Farce-Side:Umm...I hate to call bs on this, but most firearms dealers prefer cash or money order when selling online. Most legitimate firearms dealers, that is. I've never even seen any businesses that accept bitcoins. Like ever.

It is B.S. It's just a Bitcoin hit piece using potential gun sales to whip up fear about what may happen with potential gun sales. You can have anonymous sales of anything right now with greenbacks or gold coins.

And by "many online dealers" subby means a handful of unlicensed dark-net sites.

If you buy from a licensed dealer then it doesn't matter how you pay for the gun or whether you bought it online or face-to-face; you're still going to have to fill out an ATF form 4473 and submit to the background check.

Farce-Side:Umm...I hate to call bs on this, but most firearms dealers prefer cash or money order when selling online. Most legitimate firearms dealers, that is. I've never even seen any businesses that accept bitcoins. Like ever.

These "dealers" are starting from "Obama bad, gubmint bad", and setting up their businesses accordingly. They're not trying to be legitimate or to follow the laws.

All it means is that the USG will either make BitCoins illegal (competing currency or "encourages criminal activity" or "terrorism" or something else with the barest figleaf of legality) or something. The problem in this case isn't the sale of guns, it's the legality of the salesmens' businesses.

If these gun dealers are taking bitcoins the invisible hand of the market will probably take care of them when that racket comes crashing down. If you want a real untraceable transaction give a hawala a try, although I suspect that the type of people doing these sales probably would get uncomfortable dealing with a "Sharia Bank."

dittybopper:... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.

Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

rabidarmadillo24:If these gun dealers are taking bitcoins the invisible hand of the market will probably take care of them when that racket comes crashing down. If you want a real untraceable transaction give a hawala a try, although I suspect that the type of people doing these sales probably would get uncomfortable dealing with a "Sharia Bank."

Why does everyone say that Bitcoin is untraceable? Central to the architecture is that fact that every transaction ever done using bitcoin is logged forever - that's THE WHOLE FREAKING POINT OFBlockChain! What you don't have is a log of the origin point of the coins, but once you start to identify nodes and coins you have attribution. If a Government really wanted to trace Bitcoins from an anti-laundering side, they'd just set up a BlockChain root (whatever the technical name is) and start identifying coins and accounts. You can't control the flow, but you can monitor it. This is also the reason that Bitcoins stolen in large scale heists haven't been used to actually buy anything.

phaseolus:dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.

Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated. It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

dittybopper:phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.

Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated. It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

hackalope:Why does everyone say that Bitcoin is untraceable? Central to the architecture is that fact that every transaction ever done using bitcoin is logged forever - that's THE WHOLE FREAKING POINT OF BlockChain! What you don't have is a log of the origin point of the coins, but once you start to identify nodes and coins you have attribution. If a Government really wanted to trace Bitcoins from an anti-laundering side, they'd just set up a BlockChain root (whatever the technical name is) and start identifying coins and accounts. You can't control the flow, but you can monitor it. This is also the reason that Bitcoins stolen in large scale heists haven't been used to actually buy anything.

Or the ATF/FBI/whoever could simply subpoena them and demand the transaction info so they can go get the gun with the serial number filed off that is illegal to own because the serial number's been filed off. They know it's out there; after all, Executive Outcomes said so themselves.

dittybopper:phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.

Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated. It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

dittybopper:It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

Which (depending on the specific means of "expression" they use) is a federal crime. So yes, they are criminals. Maybe not murderers, pimps or misusers of government funds, but criminals who deserve jail time nonetheless.

And the government doesn't care what guns you OWN, they care what weapons you TRANSFER. They want to make sure that that "hop" is kosher - they don't give a fart in a windstorm that you own 55 Rugers, they care that the 56th was sold to you in accordance with Federal law. You don't need to register what you have, only what you're preparing to sell. It may seem like a small difference (even a semantic one), but there's a significant legal difference.

Bloody William:rabidarmadillo24: If these gun dealers are taking bitcoins the invisible hand of the market will probably take care of them when that racket comes crashing down. If you want a real untraceable transaction give a hawala a try, although I suspect that the type of people doing these sales probably would get uncomfortable dealing with a "Sharia Bank."

What does tasty sesame candy have to do with gun running?

Damn you. I had to go back and look it up to make sure I didn't screw up.What candy are you referring to?

dittybopper:phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.

Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated. It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

Which is just retarded as while there is a list (or several, I'm unclear on this point) of citizens disallowed from owning firearms, no list (at least at the Federal level) exists of registered gun owners. This is as "out there" and unrealistic as the drone debate.

rabidarmadillo24:Bloody William: rabidarmadillo24: If these gun dealers are taking bitcoins the invisible hand of the market will probably take care of them when that racket comes crashing down. If you want a real untraceable transaction give a hawala a try, although I suspect that the type of people doing these sales probably would get uncomfortable dealing with a "Sharia Bank."

What does tasty sesame candy have to do with gun running?

Damn you. I had to go back and look it up to make sure I didn't screw up.What candy are you referring to?

I think he's referring to halva. There's a corner grocery a few miles from my office that sells blocks of halva that kind of look like fudge, except they're made with sesame. It also goes stale very quickly, so if you find a supplier, you should keep it refrigerated or eat it the same day.

lol. "Many prefer to accept"? How about no. I'm on gunbroker all the time and I've never, ever come across any dealers pushing to be paid in bitcoin.

Have dealt with many really great firearms dealers online, but on the cutting edge of digital currency these guys ain't. They tend to prefer things old school and are sticklers for paperwork and procedure.

hackalope:Why does everyone say that Bitcoin is untraceable? Central to the architecture is that fact that every transaction ever done using bitcoin is logged forever - that's THE WHOLE FREAKING POINT OF BlockChain! What you don't have is a log of the origin point of the coins, but once you start to identify nodes and coins you have attribution. If a Government really wanted to trace Bitcoins from an anti-laundering side, they'd just set up a BlockChain root (whatever the technical name is) and start identifying coins and accounts. You can't control the flow, but you can monitor it. This is also the reason that Bitcoins stolen in large scale heists haven't been used to actually buy anything.

For anyone who doesn't know, if you buy a gun on the internet, you have to have a local FFL receive that gun for you, and that FFL has to do all the paperwork and background checks that is normally done. Yes there are exceptions, but that's how it's done in the vast majority of cases.

When a crime is committed with a firearm, that firearm is almost always a handgun. The number one way criminals buy handguns is by buying stolen guns from the black market. The second most popular way is also through the black market from a straw buying operation.

If your going to discuss restricting the things, you should at least know the facts.

dittybopper:A better alternative is to buy a pre-1968 gun that doesn't have a serial number, or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.

Given that guns were valuable, they were typically serialized even before 1968, some muskets had serial numbers even in the 1700s.

The ones that weren't were typically cheap ones that I'd be hesitant to fire today.

Gosling:Or the ATF/FBI/whoever could simply subpoena them and demand the transaction info so they can go get the gun with the serial number filed off that is illegal to own because the serial number's been filed off. They know it's out there; after all, Executive Outcomes said so themselves.

Heck, how do we know that "Executive Outcomes" isn't simply a FBI sting site?

For those that don't know, shipping firearms to somebody not an FFL is normally highly illegal. The exemptions are an owner shipping to himself and a firearm repair company returning a firearm to the owner. The *LEGAL* way to buy a gun online is to buy it, have it shipped to a local FFL, where for a fee he'll do the paperwork and give it to you. That's without getting into the various felonies filing serial numbers off will get you.

As such, "Executive Outcomes" has to operate on the darknet because otherwise the BATFE would be knocking on their door right now with a search warrant.

Sadly, I see it being used as a call for more restrictions on legal gun sellers, because of the illegal sites.

manimal2878:If I remember right the last time The Armory came up everyone assumed it was basically a way to make your money disappear and get nothing in return, I.e. a scam.

Something like that (and silk road) have to operate purely on reputation of each seller. You might get scammed by someone with no reputation, but you would give them a bad review telling everyone they are a scammer. So, scamming someone in this way would work exactly once.

karmaceutical:dittybopper: phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.

Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated. It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

Of course, because that is the way all completely healthy think.

Ah yes the tired old line about how if you have nothing to hide you won't mind a little look by Uncle Sam. After all they are here to help :)

Well fark you sir. I don't have anything to hide but I'll be damned if I let someone go on a fishing expedition just because it makes you feel better.

Lawyers With Nukes:If your bitcoin transactions are traceable back to you, then you're doing it wrong.

Sure, now that's fairly true. But the history of techniques used to trace money laundering show that, yes Virgina Bitcoin operations won't be anonymous forever. By that I mean that as new coins get harder to produce, and existing coins are identified, it will become possible to trace the flow of payment. This probably won't work backwards, and new Bitcoins will be anonymous. However the digital non-repudiation built into the system from the start makes it a lot easier to be sure you've found the Bitcoin you're trying to trace. That aspect removes some of the uncertainty and complexity of account forensics.

Bitcoin successfully removes a central bank and government from the equation, but I don't think it will remain as anonymous as you hope it to be. Basically every bill is marked, by design. To quote the original BitCoin paper:

Some linking is still unavoidable with multi-input transactions, which necessarily reveal that their inputs were owned by the same owner. The risk is that if the owner of a key is revealed, linking could reveal other transactions that belonged to the same owner.

My contention is that, over time the public keys of some percentage of the Bitcoins on the market will be attributed. As time goes on, none of the attributed Bitcoins will leave circulation. I believe that attribution will happen at a greater rate than new Bitcoins will be mined. Therefore, the un-anonymized Bitcoins will approach the entirety of Bitcoins in circulation. I might be wrong, but that's not the way I'm betting.