(30-10-2012 03:05 AM)wrenekape Wrote: This is one reason I find the ultra-conservative, anti-government, anti-"handout" majority of Mormons so hypocritical. Maybe they make the argument that taxes are imposed and tithing is encouraged, or parse it other ways, but to me it's a double standard.

I would guess that they see the tithing as being acceptable because it is the will of their divine God, and God after all does only good things with that money, while the government, very often does not do good things with that money, or at the very least makes poor choices with the money they are "given". The government has also not been to friendly to Mormons in the past, and (essentially) forced them to changed their rules, or religious bylaws, or whatever concerning polygamy, and gaining statehood in what became Utah. There is undoubtedly some leftover hard feelings (I would speculate anyway) in the same way their is still a lot of left over distrust from black Americans toward white Americans (I really can't say I blame either). Again that is just speculation, but I think my speculation may have more merit, but you, being a former Mormon could tell me if that sounds crazy to you or not. Just my thoughts...

(29-10-2012 10:38 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote: I know that the church had an issue with dark skinned people for a large part of it's existence.

I was curious about this myself. Also could you briefly inform me bout polygamy. For the record, I think consisting adults should be able to do whatever the hell they want, but I was curious as to why it was okay, then not okay, and why some of the Mormons choose to ignore the latter rule change. On who's authority do these rules get changed? Is there like a Pope of the Mormons? Also, what branch did the Mormons break away from originally, or did it kind of come into it's own existence apart from other protestant denominations with strong influences from X denomination/s? Sorry for asking so many questions, you can tackle them one or two at a time if that's easier.

Ahhhh, polygamy. To understand this and all other issues, you must understand the crux of the Mormon faith, which is that Mormons believe that they are led by a prophet of God on the earth today. Yes, a prophet, like Noah or Moses or Abraham or any other prophet of the bible. Someone who actually speaks for God. The church even has its own Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. I won't get into the social and historical whys and why nots of polygamy because I'm not really sure I understand them all myself, and that's the whole point. The whys and hows simply do not matter. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. If you have a testimony of that and of the church being true, the why of an-y-thing he did is irrelevant. End of story. You will get different reasons from different people, some will be true, some won't, but it simply doesn't matter. Joseph Smith said polygamy was instituted by God, so it must be. When Utah statehood was threatened by the government because Mormons were still practicing polygamy, all of a sudden there was a "revelation" that polygamy was to be stopped. But again, the hows and whys don't matter. Prophet says stop. Stop. Some people didn't agree with that, hence the offshoots that still practice it.

It's the same thing with the most despicable, in my view, tenet of the Church's history: blacks and the priesthood. Brigham Young, raving racist as he was, said that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood. He was the Prophet, so it became law. End of story. You will not get any official word from the church on the origins of this policy. The only thing they will say is "We don't practice it anymore" and they refer you to the 1978 Official Declaration of the church stopping the practice (I'd link it here but I can't from my iPad). Prophet says it's a good idea, it's a good idea. Prophet says to stop, stop. This is all perfectly fine, remember, because of that witness you received that the church is true and the man at the head is a true prophet of God. Aside from all the other reasons I just don't care for Mitt Romney, this is the most insidious in its implications. If it so happens that Romney becomes President and is told by the president of the Mormon church--the prophet--to take a specific action, he must or renounce his entire Mormonism, plain and simple. You don't disobey someone who you think is God's mouthpiece.

Sorry, got off on a tangent a bit there. Back to your final question. Mormonism really isn't an offshoot of anything. It's it very own (albeit based heavily on Christianity) thing. In an extremely small nutshell, Joseph Smith was visited by an angel who told him that none of the churches were true. Not long after, God (Elohim) and Jesus Christ (Jehovah) visited him and commanded him to restore the church to the earth. The true priesthood of God had died with the last of the original twelve apostles. Joseph Smith was visited by John the Baptist, who conferred the Aaronic Priesthood upon him, then by Peter, James, and John, who conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood upon him. Mix on High for five minutes, bake for 30 minutes at 375 degrees, and voila! The Mormon Church.

(29-10-2012 11:34 PM)Dark Light Wrote: I was curious about this myself. Also could you briefly inform me bout polygamy. For the record, I think consisting adults should be able to do whatever the hell they want, but I was curious as to why it was okay, then not okay, and why some of the Mormons choose to ignore the latter rule change. On who's authority do these rules get changed? Is there like a Pope of the Mormons? Also, what branch did the Mormons break away from originally, or did it kind of come into it's own existence apart from other protestant denominations with strong influences from X denomination/s? Sorry for asking so many questions, you can tackle them one or two at a time if that's easier.

Ahhhh, polygamy. To understand this and all other issues, you must understand the crux of the Mormon faith, which is that Mormons believe that they are led by a prophet of God on the earth today. Yes, a prophet, like Noah or Moses or Abraham or any other prophet of the bible. Someone who actually speaks for God. The church even has its own Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. I won't get into the social and historical whys and why nots of polygamy because I'm not really sure I understand them all myself, and that's the whole point. The whys and hows simply do not matter. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. If you have a testimony of that and of the church being true, the why of an-y-thing he did is irrelevant. End of story. You will get different reasons from different people, some will be true, some won't, but it simply doesn't matter. Joseph Smith said polygamy was instituted by God, so it must be. When Utah statehood was threatened by the government because Mormons were still practicing polygamy, all of a sudden there was a "revelation" that polygamy was to be stopped. But again, the hows and whys don't matter. Prophet says stop. Stop. Some people didn't agree with that, hence the offshoots that still practice it.

It's the same thing with the most despicable, in my view, tenet of the Church's history: blacks and the priesthood. Brigham Young, raving racist as he was, said that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood. He was the Prophet, so it became law. End of story. You will not get any official word from the church on the origins of this policy. The only thing they will say is "We don't practice it anymore" and they refer you to the 1978 Official Declaration of the church stopping the practice (I'd link it here but I can't from my iPad). Prophet says it's a good idea, it's a good idea. Prophet says to stop, stop. This is all perfectly fine, remember, because of that witness you received that the church is true and the man at the head is a true prophet of God. Aside from all the other reasons I just don't care for Mitt Romney, this is the most insidious in its implications. If it so happens that Romney becomes President and is told by the president of the Mormon church--the prophet--to take a specific action, he must or renounce his entire Mormonism, plain and simple. You don't disobey someone who you think is God's mouthpiece.

Sorry, got off on a tangent a bit there. Back to your final question. Mormonism really isn't an offshoot of anything. It's it very own (albeit based heavily on Christianity) thing. In an extremely small nutshell, Joseph Smith was visited by an angel who told him that none of the churches were true. Not long after, God (Elohim) and Jesus Christ (Jehovah) visited him and commanded him to restore the church to the earth. The true priesthood of God had died with the last of the original twelve apostles. Joseph Smith was visited by John the Baptist, who conferred the Aaronic Priesthood upon him, then by Peter, James, and John, who conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood upon him. Mix on High for five minutes, bake for 30 minutes at 375 degrees, and voila! The Mormon Church.

Holy balls! The more I learn the scarier it becomes. Yikes! I'm half tempted to let one of the Mormon door knockers take me to church just so I can learn more. Is that possible? Can a non-mormon go to a service? Also, they believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the prophet always gets replaced by another prophet when he dies, right? That's the impression I got. Anyhow, what was going on in between the last prophet and Joseph Smith? God thought, "Well they'll be okay" then 1700 years down the road "Dammit, I fucked up. I'm putting a permanent prophet here now" I digress. How does they new prophet get chose? I'm sure that "God chooses" but since any asshole can just say "God picked me!" I'm assuming their is a vote by the Disciples, who probably in turn picks the Disciples as they die...correct my guess. Sounds to me that Mormons have a lot more in common with Catholicism than I initially thought, but I am woefully ill-informed about (modern) Catholics as well.

(30-10-2012 03:19 AM)Dark Light Wrote: I would guess that they see the tithing as being acceptable because it is the will of their divine God, and God after all does only good things with that money, while the government, very often does not do good things with that money, or at the very least makes poor choices with the money they are "given". The government has also not been to friendly to Mormons in the past, and (essentially) forced them to changed their rules, or religious bylaws, or whatever concerning polygamy, and gaining statehood in what became Utah. There is undoubtedly some leftover hard feelings (I would speculate anyway) in the same way their is still a lot of left over distrust from black Americans toward white Americans (I really can't say I blame either). Again that is just speculation, but I think my speculation may have more merit, but you, being a former Mormon could tell me if that sounds crazy to you or not. Just my thoughts...

You make a good point in that they do it because they believe it's God's will and it will be only used for righteous purposes, although I don't really know how righteous a $2,000,000,000 shopping center in downtown Salt Lake is. I can unequivocally say that Mormons do not hold grudges with past governmental actions. There are no hard feelings in that regard. The problem with the tithing/welfare comparison is this: It's not that Mormons don't believe in taxes. Yes, most are Republican and push for fewer, but most of them, I would say, are okay with a few here and there. It's that part of those taxes go to "moochers who won't get off their assess and go find a job", not to actual, struggling families who really need the help. Yet there's absolutely no way in hell that their sacred tithing funds could EVER go to someone who's telling a sob story to the bishop just to get some free food and stuff. No no. That wouldn't happen. The people who use tithing for food really, really, really need it. But the people who use welfare money for food are just too damn lazy.

(30-10-2012 03:19 AM)Dark Light Wrote: I would guess that they see the tithing as being acceptable because it is the will of their divine God, and God after all does only good things with that money, while the government, very often does not do good things with that money, or at the very least makes poor choices with the money they are "given". The government has also not been to friendly to Mormons in the past, and (essentially) forced them to changed their rules, or religious bylaws, or whatever concerning polygamy, and gaining statehood in what became Utah. There is undoubtedly some leftover hard feelings (I would speculate anyway) in the same way their is still a lot of left over distrust from black Americans toward white Americans (I really can't say I blame either). Again that is just speculation, but I think my speculation may have more merit, but you, being a former Mormon could tell me if that sounds crazy to you or not. Just my thoughts...

You make a good point in that they do it because they believe it's God's will and it will be only used for righteous purposes, although I don't really know how righteous a $2,000,000,000 shopping center in downtown Salt Lake is. I can unequivocally say that Mormons do not hold grudges with past governmental actions. There are no hard feelings in that regard. The problem with the tithing/welfare comparison is this: It's not that Mormons don't believe in taxes. Yes, most are Republican and push for fewer, but most of them, I would say, are okay with a few here and there. It's that part of those taxes go to "moochers who won't get off their assess and go find a job", not to actual, struggling families who really need the help. Yet there's absolutely no way in hell that their sacred tithing funds could EVER go to someone who's telling a sob story to the bishop just to get some free food and stuff. No no. That wouldn't happen. The people who use tithing for food really, really, really need it. But the people who use welfare money for food are just too damn lazy.

In my humble opinion

Yeah, I wasn't sure on the latter point, especially being pretty ignorant of Mormon ways, ideals and feelings, but I thought it was worth bringing up anyhow. Thanks for clarifying, and thanks for being open to alternative ideas as well.

(30-10-2012 04:07 AM)Dark Light Wrote: Holy balls! The more I learn the scarier it becomes. Yikes! I'm half tempted to let one of the Mormon door knockers take me to church just so I can learn more. Is that possible? Can a non-mormon go to a service? Also, they believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the prophet always gets replaced by another prophet when he dies, right? That's the impression I got. Anyhow, what was going on in between the last prophet and Joseph Smith? God thought, "Well they'll be okay" then 1700 years down the road "Dammit, I fucked up. I'm putting a permanent prophet here now" I digress. How does they new prophet get chose? I'm sure that "God chooses" but since any asshole can just say "God picked me!" I'm assuming their is a vote by the Disciples, who probably in turn picks the Disciples as they die...correct my guess. Sounds to me that Mormons have a lot more in common with Catholicism than I initially thought, but I am woefully ill-informed about (modern) Catholics as well.

Well, Mr. Dark Light (assuming you're a Mr.), if you would kindly proceed to here, you can enter your info and as it says, "You will be contacted within two to three days . . . They can give you a Book of Mormon and accompany you to church meetings so that you can see for yourself what our faith is about." Boy howdy would those boys be beamin' with th' Speerit!

Yes, non-Mormons can go to services. That's what 55,410 young'ns are out there in the world trying to do. That's what I tried to do for two years. In fact, these kinds of referrals are the absolute best to have. I remember getting the lists from Salt Lake City of people actually requesting us to come to them. It was a very rare, exciting thing.

The time from when the last of the original twelve apostles died and to when the Angel Moroni visited Joseph Smith is called The Great Apostasy. That's the time during which God removed his authority (priesthood) from the earth because of the earth's wickedness. And you are correct, that means around 1600 years of no gospel, no priesthood, no saving of souls on the earth.

When the prophet dies, the President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles becomes the next prophet. The President of the Twelve gets to his position through being a member of the Twelve himself and other callings and positions over the course of many, many years. New apostles get chosen by the current Quorum and the First Presidency (which consists of the prophet and his first and second counselors), all of whom are male, and all of whom are white, and all of whom have been male and white since the inception of the church.

(30-10-2012 06:52 AM)wrenekape Wrote: Well, Mr. Dark Light (assuming you're a Mr.), if you would kindly proceed to here, you can enter your info and as it says, "You will be contacted within two to three days . . . They can give you a Book of Mormon and accompany you to church meetings so that you can see for yourself what our faith is about." Boy howdy would those boys be beamin' with th' Speerit!

Yes, non-Mormons can go to services. That's what 55,410 young'ns are out there in the world trying to do. That's what I tried to do for two years. In fact, these kinds of referrals are the absolute best to have. I remember getting the lists from Salt Lake City of people actually requesting us to come to them. It was a very rare, exciting thing.

The time from when the last of the original twelve apostles died and to when the Angel Moroni visited Joseph Smith is called The Great Apostasy. That's the time during which God removed his authority (priesthood) from the earth because of the earth's wickedness. And you are correct, that means around 1600 years of no gospel, no priesthood, no saving of souls on the earth.

When the prophet dies, the President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles becomes the next prophet. The President of the Twelve gets to his position through being a member of the Twelve himself and other callings and positions over the course of many, many years. New apostles get chosen by the current Quorum and the First Presidency (which consists of the prophet and his first and second counselors), all of whom are male, and all of whom are white, and all of whom have been male and white since the inception of the church.

Well, if by Mr. you mean do I have a penis, then yes. That being said, there is no fucking chance they are getting my personal information, the nutters. I'm paranoid enough already without a cult actively trying to recruit me , but seriously though, I am a bit on the paranoid side Thanks for all of this knowledge your sharing though!

Do you mean prominent within Mormonism or without? I can't think of anyone outside of Mormonism like a Steve Young or a Mitt Romney. And within Mormonism I could only find one member of the leadership of the church with Native American heritage. That was a cursory look, so there might be more, but if there are, they are sparse.

Not sure what you mean by without. Romney was very much within the church. Is this leader far removed and very white? What is the highest position a woman can hold? I know they don't go knocking. I have a trans friend who is a mormon and that seemed to be handled relatiely ok. Though the famly eventually quelled the feelings. Discuss gender and Mormon thought please. That friend was ery uninterested in talking about mormonism because she knew it was all fake but liked the community.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.