I am currently debating with Christadelphians on another forum, and they keep on insisting, wrongly, that the Devil is a name for sin, and is not the adversary of G-d and Christ. Can anyone point me to Scriptures that would back up my position that the Devil is a fallen archangel who rebelled against G-d, was cast out of Heaven, and is the the adversary of G-d as an actual being?

"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."2 Timothy 2:26

This indicates the devil had his own will, in other words he is a being capable of independent thought and choice.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."1 John 3:8

This states that the devil himself sins, again indicating the devil is an independent being capable of sin. Also this verse states that sin is the works of the devil, thus he is the cause of sin, not sin itself.

I pray these help, if not I'm sure the Lord will guide you to plant the seeds He would have them hear, whether the seeds bear fruit is another matter, all we can do is pray for that as well.

If I may ask, on which forum is this debate occurring and would you like a second witness to support you in defending the truth?

I should be able to take them on and defend the truth about the Devil, and I will use your evidences to back up my argument. When I originally posted that the Devil was a being, rather than sin, the Christadelphians accused me of polytheism, which is not true at all. I think this shows they will sink lower and lower to support their rickety doctrines and so they avoid controversy to keep their brethen happy.

Quote:"...the Christadelphians accused me of polytheism, which is not true at all. I think this shows they will sink lower and lower to support their rickety doctrines and so they avoid controversy to keep their brethen happy."

Unfortunately this is not limited to some of the Christadelphians.

Until recently I was posting at another site called Ourchurch.com where I would reguarly debate a number of issues with almost everyone there.

Most were at least reasonable and civil although when confronted with facts they could not legitimately tear down, they would often use underhanded tactics.

Eventually a woman claiming to be a bishop of a so-called Church called "Fellowship of Christ, International" decided she wanted to attack orthodox teachings claiming her gathering had apostolic succession of authority through the laying on of hands from the apostle Thomas, needless to say the claim was a complete falsehood.

When I posted conclusive evidence disproving the claim, I was threatened with being banned by the management if I mentioned it further. A short time later when another challenged her claims she again tried using her false credentials to support her so I again posted the evidence, plus a lot more to support it. Subsequently I was banned, not that I was surprised and I had also previously posted that they would do it to protect her as she was one of the best paying customers.

However, the Lord was watching and since this began there has been a steady decline in the number visiting Ourchurch.com, in fact if you check their site statistics through Alexa.com you'll see their business has dropped below half since December.

What's more, as a result of all this, it has come into the light that they have a convicted child sex offender moderating over their forums, including their youth forum and now have been reported to the U.S. Attorney General's Office and the local media. As such I would expect their business is about to drop a lot further.

Another good side is an Anglican minister who had begun debating with me is now discussing how he will convince his wife to come with him to the Coptic Church and a number of others are also still in email communication and I have just started my own website with it's own discussion forum and some of them are beginning to come to discuss further.

So keep going, the Lord is with you, the more they persecute or lie about you the more those that have a heart for the truth will witness who is full of the Holy Spirit and who isn't. You may not see any results for a while and maybe not at all, but remember seeds take time to grow before they bear fruit, so stand firm.

It is a sad fact that many of the site which claim to discuss the faith simply discuss heresy - and worse. That is why it is so important to have sites such as this where those interested in Orthodoxy can find out more about it in a genuinely eirenic atmosphere.

We avoid trying to bully or coerce anyone. We are confident in the word of the Lord, and those who come here seem to find it a good resource; that is enough for us.

In Christ,

John

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

Quote:"...the Christadelphians accused me of polytheism, which is not true at all. I think this shows they will sink lower and lower to support their rickety doctrines and so they avoid controversy to keep their brethen happy."

Unfortunately this is not limited to some of the Christadelphians.

That is a shame, but let us pray that they see the light, so that they will attain eternal life after the Resurrection.

davidlazarus Wrote:Until recently I was posting at another site called Ourchurch.com where I would reguarly debate a number of issues with almost everyone there.

Most were at least reasonable and civil although when confronted with facts they could not legitimately tear down, they would often use underhanded tactics.

I hope that the Christadelphians and other groups will question their doctrines and not accept them unconditionally. They truely are fallen into heresy.

davidlazarus Wrote:Eventually a woman claiming to be a bishop of a so-called Church called "Fellowship of Christ, International" decided she wanted to attack orthodox teachings claiming her gathering had apostolic succession of authority through the laying on of hands from the apostle Thomas, needless to say the claim was a complete falsehood.

I agree. Despite being a Biblical Unitarian (not to be confused with Unitarian Universalists, the traitors) I believe the Apostolic Succession went through the Trinitarian Churches through to the present day.

davidlazarus Wrote:When I posted conclusive evidence disproving the claim, I was threatened with being banned by the management if I mentioned it further. A short time later when another challenged her claims she again tried using her false credentials to support her so I again posted the evidence, plus a lot more to support it. Subsequently I was banned, not that I was surprised and I had also previously posted that they would do it to protect her as she was one of the best paying customers.

This truly shows to what lengths heretics will go to protect their false doctrines. Let us pray for them.

davidlazarus Wrote:However, the Lord was watching and since this began there has been a steady decline in the number visiting Ourchurch.com, in fact if you check their site statistics through Alexa.com you'll see their business has dropped below half since December.

That does not surprise me, for any false church shall have their numbers dwindle, as knowledge shall be increased in the end times, as prophecised in Daniel 12, as as backed up by the monogene Son of G-d.

davidlazarus Wrote:What's more, as a result of all this, it has come into the light that they have a convicted child sex offender moderating over their forums, including their youth forum and now have been reported to the U.S. Attorney General's Office and the local media. As such I would expect their business is about to drop a lot further.

Let us hope that they repent of their idolatry, and their sexual immorality, and all their immorality, so that they do not suffer eternal destruction.

davidlazarus Wrote:Another good side is an Anglican minister who had begun debating with me is now discussing how he will convince his wife to come with him to the Coptic Church and a number of others are also still in email communication and I have just started my own website with it's own discussion forum and some of them are beginning to come to discuss further.

That is good news. My own personal belief on this is that the Apostolic Succession still survives somewhat in the Church of England, but the stronger Apostolic Succession lies in the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches.

davidlazarus Wrote:So keep going, the Lord is with you, the more they persecute or lie about you the more those that have a heart for the truth will witness who is full of the Holy Spirit and who isn't. You may not see any results for a while and maybe not at all, but remember seeds take time to grow before they bear fruit, so stand firm.

Peace and Love to you.

David Lazarus

Let us hope I can persuade the Christadelphians of the falsity of their erroneous doctrines, so that their souls may be saved.

John Charmley Wrote:Dear David,

It is a sad fact that many of the site which claim to discuss the faith simply discuss heresy - and worse. That is why it is so important to have sites such as this where those interested in Orthodoxy can find out more about it in a genuinely eirenic atmosphere.

We avoid trying to bully or coerce anyone. We are confident in the word of the Lord, and those who come here seem to find it a good resource; that is enough for us.

In Christ,

John

Your attitude to those outside Oriental Orthodoxy must be commended. I have never met such an understanding Christian, and that's a fact. All the other Christians who I have come into contact with either ridicule my beliefs, call me a heretic, threaten me and/or try to destroy everything I have believed in. Thank you for your understanding.

Thank your for your kind words. The best way to deal with others is as we ourselves would wish to be dealt with; that is with the love He bears for us all.

In our dialogue I hope you are seeing answers to your questions, and I respect the deep thought and prayer you give to these matters; you are a serious-minded person with a real desire to talk about our Faith - that is refreshing and what this forum is about.

May He bless and keep you,

Anglian

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

No, not at all, there was no implication that you were using anything save the tactics of the good Christian apologist; you are the last person to use bullying tactics - as anyone who has read your blog can see.

In Christ,

John

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

Thank your for your kind words. The best way to deal with others is as we ourselves would wish to be dealt with; that is with the love He bears for us all.

That is very true.

John Charmley Wrote:In our dialogue I hope you are seeing answers to your questions, and I respect the deep thought and prayer you give to these matters; you are a serious-minded person with a real desire to talk about our Faith - that is refreshing and what this forum is about.

May He bless and keep you,

Anglian

May G-d bless and keep you too. I pray to know what I want to know, which is of course, the divine Truth. If you don't ask you don't get is my philosophy, generally. If I ask questions, ponder it and ask G-d I am sure He will make the Truth known to me.

davidlazarus Wrote:

John Charmley Wrote:We avoid trying to bully or coerce anyone. We are confident in the word of the Lord, and those who come here seem to find it a good resource; that is enough for us.

In Christ,

John

My apologies John, and all, please forgive me if my words have given the impression that "bullying" or coercion is a tactic I was promoting.

My intent was simply to show that at times, no matter what is offered, there are some that will reject truth.

I agree. The Christadelphians deny the existence of the Devil and the pre-existence of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, when it is so plainly stated in the Bible. Let us pray to their awakening to the Truth.

davidlazarus Wrote:To balance this, I also mentioned those in whom the truth began to take root to show that not all reject truth and these will, in the Lord's time, see beyond the deceptions.

Again my apologies, I will restrain from such comments in the future.

Peace and Love to all

David Lazarus

Peace and love to you also. Rejection of the divine Truth is what no-one wants to happen to anyone, and Christ told us to love all humans, even those who reject the Truth.

He did indeed command us to love one another. If our hands are folded into fists to fight, how shall we open them to receive the blessings of the Lord? If our mouths are full of words of hate and conflict, how shall we speak His word which is one of love?

In Christ,

John

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

He did indeed command us to love one another. If our hands are folded into fists to fight, how shall we open them to receive the blessings of the Lord? If our mouths are full of words of hate and conflict, how shall we speak His word which is one of love?

About two weeks ago, having abandoned my belief in Biblical infallibility three weeks before that, I came to the conclusion that Tradition is important. Saint Paul of Tarsus I believe mentioned it several times in his letters, so Tradition is important.

My beliefs on Sola Scriptura are gone, as the Bible has so many blatant contradictions. My beliefs, however, are tending to swing between Trinitarianism and Arianism, all due to Isaiah 6:3, where it says: 'holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts, the whole world is full of His glory'.

Does anyone else believe that Isaiah 6:3 is a reference to the Trinity?