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I know no one can dictate that a God called minister must have some level of formal education!

But, having said all of the above; I will probably show my educational snobbery by saying:

I think some minimum level of education should be REQUIRED like the Methodists and Presbyterians and such before one is ordained, allowed to preach vocationally, allowed to preach as an evangelist, or lead out in any professional way in ministry!

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Rhet, I wholeheartedly agree. Completing an education speaks volumes about a person's ability to make a commitment and follw through, not to mention a person's desire to equip himself for the task God puts before him.

Of course, I have no authority to require that of all others as a matter of scriptural doctrine. So it's strictly my opinion and preference.

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Obviously, since we are congregationalists, there is no hierarchy which can impose a minimal level of training. Consequently, and you imply as much, such is left to individual congregations.

Many Baptist congregations set the MDiv as the minimum training. I don't think this is wise (and you know how much I esteem a good education!. One can achieve an MDiv and remain deficient in understanding the Scriptures and how they apply to individuals' lives. Also, an older man recently graduated with a BA in Bible may be better trained than some of our younger MDiv grads.

While a part of me would love to see some sort of across-the-board minimum level of education, I wonder if the cure may be worse than the illness.

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Originally posted by Rhetorician:I think some minimum level of education should be REQUIRED like the Methodists and Presbyterians and such before one is ordained, allowed to preach vocationally, allowed to preach as an evangelist, or lead out in any professional way in ministry!

Whatdayathinkaboutthat?

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Rhet, I disagree with an approach that requires more or less than God requires. I think the standard one must meet is found in I Timothy 3:2 -

"A bishop then must be...apt to teach..." - KJV

"Therefore an overseer must be...able to teach..." - ESV

"An overseer, therefore, must be...an able teacher..." - HCSB

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To set the requirement as to how one becomes "able to teach" rather than being "able to teach" misses the mark, in my opinion. It is a real shame, though, that many congregations lack the discernment to know whether bishops/pastors are able to teach.

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As Broadus said above and all of us know, we are congregationalists; and no one can dictate what a preacher needs to be or have except the local assembly. I am not wanting to make us like the presbyterians or methodists.

But, I will say this: when one of our unlearned Baptist pastors meets at the local ministers alliance, he sure takes a chance to have his unlearned condition exposed.

As has been argued and argued again and again on the BB; why should the one with the highest calling be satisfied with the least amount of training and education? And should God's people be satisfied with one who glories or is satisfied with his present state of ignorance?

I was only trying to get us to understand that there is rabid brain death and ignorance in some pulpits. Some, not all, think that they have "really preached," or "given it to them," when they have "stomped and snorted." And unfortunately, many congregations think that "loud" is really hearing from the Lord when it is only loud!

Also deferring to my colleague Broadus' observations, some assemblies have seen the need to write into the job descriptions of the pulpit minister the requirement for some level of formal education. I guess he has expressed the point as well as it could be said.

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Let's also remember that having a piece of paper on your wall is NOT egual to having an education. BTW..my understanding was that Methodists do have non seminary trained pastors as I know the PCUSA now allows non seminary trained pastors.

There are 2 extremes to avoid. One is to disdain Seminary education (Something all too common with Baptists in the past) and the other to make it mandantory which as rlvaughn shows, goes beyound scripture and seems to be a professionalizing the ministry. To make it a requirement is adding a requirement Scripture itself does not require. Education is not something done in 3-5 years but takes a life time.

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Though I have an education, and am continuing to further my education, I find it ammusing that we would base a persons ability to be an effective minister on the time he has spent in books. I hope we would base it on the call of God and the time he has spent in THE BOOK! For some reason Spurgeon and Moody come to mind.

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What you have said is more true than we know. I think that a commitment to education is a sign of a deeper commitment to personal excellence in the "call to minister."

One of the arguements normally made is to sight those who are the extremely outstanding ones like Spurgeon and Moody. The ones you sight both started outstanding educational institutions, did they not?

They also worked feverishly at their craft all of their lives. They would probably have been excellent and very used of our Lord w/or w/o any formal education. But, they both sacrificed in order that others would not be ignorant ministers.

These two, IMHO, are two that you have used, although inadvertently, to make and to stress my OP above.

I know of two or three; who, in my life were naturally endowed by our Lord. They were outstanding. They have done great things w/o a high level of formal education. But, my arguement is that they could have been so much better sooner had they "sharpened their tools" in some "school of the prophets."

No offense intended on any level. And, I personally know that I may have slipped into an educational snobbery mode without having meant to do so.

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What you have said is more true than we know. I think that a commitment to education is a sign of a deeper commitment to personal excellence in the "call to minister."

One of the arguements normally made is to sight those who are the extremely outstanding ones like Spurgeon and Moody. The ones you sight both started outstanding educational institutions, did they not?

They also worked feverishly at their craft all of their lives. They would probably have been excellent and very used of our Lord w/or w/o any formal education. But, they both sacrificed in order that others would not be ignorant ministers.

These two, IMHO, are two that you have used, although inadvertently, to make and to stress my OP above.

I know of two or three; who, in my life were naturally endowed by our Lord. They were outstanding. They have done great things w/o a high level of formal education. But, my arguement is that they could have been so much better sooner had they "sharpened their tools" in some "school of the prophets."

No offense intended on any level. And, I personally know that I may have slipped into an educational snobbery mode without having meant to do so.

sdg!

rd

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No offense taken. I actually agree with you. However, I felt it necessary to at least point out the exceptions.

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Originally posted by Rhetorician:
But, I will say this: when one of our unlearned Baptist pastors meets at the local ministers alliance, he sure takes a chance to have his unlearned condition exposed.

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I do not understand why would one want to base a lifetime of ministry upon a puddle of knowledge from which to draw.

Even in the business I was in I see many mistakes made because people do not understand the basics. I was paid big bucks to fix mistakes and by others because they knew I had the knowledge and experience to do the job right. That sort of thing gave me great job satisfaction. It also gave me entry to many people's live because they apppreciated what I could do for them. It gave me credibility. Once they knew theh kind of person I was I could talk with them about Christ. People who make mistakes anger their customers rather than establish trust and credibility.

Ignorance never establishes trust.

Everyday I think about how fortunate I am to have the training I have and thank God for those people who trained me. I am rewarded with the satisfaction of a job well done and financially. When I was in business I was also thanked by my customers.

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gb93433
I know you did not mean to do this.
You just called the Bible a puddle of knowledge.
Many a pastor has only the sacred Word of God and many people around the world have came to know Salvation from what you just called a puddle of knowledge.

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Knowing him from his past post, I think he probably meant the "puddle of knowledge" that the individual would have PERSONALLY. I do not b/l for a moment he meant to equate "Biblical knowledge" with the metaphor of "puddle of knowledge."

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But, I will say this: when one of our unlearned Baptist pastors meets at the local ministers alliance, he sure takes a chance to have his unlearned condition exposed.

I do not understand why would one want to base a lifetime of ministry upon a puddle of knowledge from which to draw."

These same people I speak of most likely would have there unlearned condition exposed. by a bunch of snobs lording their education ove the humble servants of God who are just doing what God called them to do . Reach the lost. And they are able to do it with only their "puddle of knowledge" the less educated call God's Word.

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