Thomas Wiehe of Sweden begins the phone call, telling
David Bailey about the meditation groups he was running for the
Sai Organisation in Sweden, and says that he has one in August
and has great doubt whether to have it or not. Thomas asks about
websites and David Bailey tells him of the sceptics website with
many articles by B. Premanand, then continues as follows:-

David Bailey: Premanand was very close to Swami before Terry
Gallagher. Terry Gallagher was an Australian who spent five,
six, seven years - and a (whole) day - with Swami. He was closer
than I was with Swami. Then when he left, through having found
out the truth of what is going on, I somehow became so close to
Swami that for three years I was blind to what was going on...
because I had been told what everybody else had been told. And
then after our marriage we became even closer and became part of
what it termed the inner circle. And when we saw for ourselves
what was going on and realised what other people who had been
close also had experienced and why they had left, then when we
did our world tour last year, it was disastrous... with so many
things that we found.
We went back at Christmas to discover that everything that we
had found was totally true; as soon as we got back to England,
we had the fraud squad from Scotland Yard, the British
Government's Foreign Office and the Charity Commissioners
waiting for us with major investigations, with proven fraud in
some cases

Thomas Wiehe: What is that?

David Bailey: Fraud is mishandling of money - and the other
thing which we had discovered was this homosexual activity. You
know, to start off with we believed (it) was only Swami - shall
we say - raising the kundalini within the student. This is what
we were told, but then when we realised that it was not... and
it was definitely not just Swami - well I have to be open and
honest - playing with the students... but asking the student to
actually make sexual acts on Swami, including oral sex. It was
just ridiculous. And then the students at the college turned to
me for help, because this has been going on for years, it is why
the assassination attempts occurred... because the students were
absolutely sick of him making them do things they didn't want to
do. I am grown up in my attitudes and realistic to realise that
around the world many things happen between consenting adults,
but when you are in a position of power as headmaster or teacher
or guru or whatever you like... to make your students do things
they do not wish to do is not acceptable, and also in England -
and I believe it is true in Sweden - it is illegal. And if Swami
were in England he would be put in prison for twenty years..
.Now that is my problem because at one of England's top
preparatory schools for children from five to thirteen years
old, the Royal family sent their children to this school... and
I was suddenly made redundant. I lost my job and they asked me
to continue with my job part time only to teach in the classroom
- no work in the evenings... even we had performed one musical
and they said you may not attend the rehearsals, you can only
attend the performance.

Thomas Wiehe: This questions your connections with Baba?

David Bailey: This I did not understand...

Thomas Wiehe: But now you...?

David Bailey: But now I do. Because he is listed as a paedophile
and around the world, I was seen - with Faye - to be going round
speaking for Swami. From the police, from the authorities from
many countries... they saw David and Faye - and other people too
- going to speak for Swami. As a result families would go out to
Swami... sons, the young men would be sexually approached and
come back, there is even one person in England who has committed
suicide and we have stopped another one, we pray, from doing so.
But we were seen as agents... that we would be very charming,
very nice, persuade people to go - because of my involvement
with the college boys so closely they thought that I was just a
provider of his sex toys. That has now ruined my career in
England because I now have a record of being connected with him.
Then of course there is the money side of things - as we spoke,
people of course wanted to give money. When they investigated
the truth of the hospital, the truth of the water project, the
truth of where the money goes - and I have personally
investigated first hand - that the water project is not
finished, there are many villages without water - not even
connected. The hospital is very badly run and it is just not
what we are told at all. Now people do not want to hear this,
but this is the truth. This is why Faye and I have moved away.
He knows that he will be caught out.

The rings are all bought from Hyderabad and locally in the
village, the vibuthi he carries between his fingers in
tablets... I've seen it, he dropped a tablet in front of me. It
is all an illusion, it is all a hoax, it is all one big trick,
and so many of us innocent people have been hoodwinked. Faye and
I, with our books, we have removed them from sale wherever we
can, because we cannot allow anybody else to go and get involved
because of us. We also respect that many people do good, but it
is now time in my view for people to do good because of good,
not because of his name. It is a terrible situation - Magnus was
in tears yesterday. When I started to find this out eighteen
months ago I had nobody to share this with and I certainly cried
myself to sleep for several weeks. When I spoke to the very
close people - I have some very good friends there who know
exactly what's going on - when you get to the inner circle it is
a business, that's all they're interested in really, but people
like Phyllis Krystal, people like Mike Hollander, who have been
there for many years, they just turn round and they say 'If you
consider he is God, he can do anything. He can have fraud, sex,
drugs... anything. If you do not consider he is God, then of
course you have a problem, because of the laws of your land,
your morality, your own upbringing and your own standards. And
they say this is your problem to sort out, you must decide that
he is God. I said this is crazy, the one that creates this
beautiful world that we live in, does not come to this earth and
do these ridiculous things. There is NO record in Prashanthi of
him doing any healing at all. Any healing that has happened
within people has been an internal personal thing, but there are
very, very few serious records of this anyway. The problem with
the incidents that have been reported before is that either the
young men have been so threatened that they have said 'I'm
sorry, I made a mistake’.

Thomas Wiehe: Who has threatened them?

David Bailey: Indulal Shah, for example, the organisation, the
coordinators. The pressure from people who have been 'besotted',
people who are so sincere devotees of Sai Baba? They will not
accept that he could do anything like this, and they have
pressurised the young men to say 'Oh I'm sorry... I made this
up.'

Thomas Wiehe: (querie lost)

David Bailey: There is a video which Magnus has got which has
been done a year ago that has just been broadcast two weeks ago
on Irish television, done by a television company from
Switzerland, Germany, Italy and Ireland, who have got together
because they are so horrified with what's going on that they
have produced this documentary for about nearly one hour - not
being unkind but just to say these are the facts this is what
you will find, and it has been very, very well put together and
what is on that video I have firsthand experience of, and it is
true. It's very sad, but we have to be serious detectives.
Wanting the truth.
I think the first thing that made me question was when there was
a question of Prince Charles going there and because I have
played for the Royal family several times I know that what
happened with the detectives that go - you know -to check
everything out first. And Prince Charles had written to me about
the possibility of going one day and I suddenly thought 'what
questions will they ask me, what answers can I give them. And I
suddenly realised that I was living in a dream world, not in the
real world. That's when I started to want the real answers,
like, what actually happens at the hospital. Not just 'Oh, this
is a beautiful hospital. What happens! How many operations are
done? What are the operations? Are all the wards open. The seven
hundred and fifty villages... how many villages have now water?
And not just 'isn't this a lovely project. Isn't it good and
feel good for being involved. But what is the truth, and when
you start finding the truth, you start thinking 'Oh! No! Oh!
NO!'

Thomas Wiehe: What did you find about the hospital?

David Bailey: There is a ward that is still not open. They have
not done any renal operations for a year. The money is
questionable. With Isaac Tigrett, when the hospital was built,
he gave $49 million. Well, only $34 million went to the hospital
the rest were... well, it's just corrupt. Australian television
do a programme on him last year and the hospital, they had found
that they were selling organs etc. The hygiene of the hospital
is disgusting. Now I know Sara Pavan who is the top
anaesthnetist from Australia who's there all the time, and he
said to me 'David, you never, ever, ever let anybody come to
this hospital because they do not understand hygiene. It is just
so sad. We've had several instances where people have been
refused entrance to the hospital who need attention. They say
they do not have the money but this does not make sense because
the money that I have seen being handed in at the office every
day. The problem that we have is that the coordinators will say
'This did not happen' or 'this is an illusion, this is a test.'
It is something that must be addressed.
I know that Steen Picullell - the coordinator for the
Russian-speaking countries - he is going to speak to Indulal
Shah and to Swami in about a week's time because he has had many
problems, but still believes that Swami is God and God can do
anything. But this is not something that is in the real world.
Before I found Swami I had many,many experiences of people who
could heal, people who were psychic, which could see the future
and I have experiences of roses - the flowers - just appearing
on the table in front of me. So these things were not something
that were new to me. I accepted all of this and this is not
something to base somebody's divinity on. So what do you base it
on because over the centuries the stories have never been like
this, and it is only because WE want it to be good we make it
[an] excuse for why he does this. But this boy is one of
hundreds that we know of. Not just one of ten or twenty.

Thomas Wiehe:Are you talking about T? [Editor's note: Initial
correct, but name suppressed. This is the so-called "Golden Boy"
from Gothenburg, who was laden with 'gold' by Sai baba and who
caused the huge furore in Sweden about Sai baba's sexual abuses]

David Bailey:I don't know the boy's name, I've not been given
it.

Thomas Wiehe: Aha. But it must be him..

David Bailey: Right.

Thomas Wiehe:"Yeah I was in Puttaparthi in January with him and
now in June with him. He talked very openly. Ja... it's him you
mean, Yes, he is a very sincere spiritual seeker and very easy
to believe. Did you meet him?"

David Bailey: Well I may have..

Thomas Wiehe: He is, well... I mean, I trust him. Just as a
human being. I trust him. Talked a lot and you know you get a
feeling 'is he talking truth or is there something behind it?

David Bailey: Exactly.

Thomas Wiehe: I got the feeling he is very trustworthy. I really
think so and he is... he has morality, sound, fine and subtle
and strong. It took him - well, he probably told you - it took
him some time to decide what to do with this... experiences. But
when he had made his decision, he goes out in a very fine way, I
think... talking to others and he is fine to talk with.

David Bailey: Yes.

Thomas Wiehe: It's really bad, I'd say.

David Bailey: Yes. This is very good because if this was
somebody who is not balanced it makes the whole thing... where
there is a question there. I can tell you I know many, many,
many examples of this... the students, because I was so close to
them, just turned to me for help - they PLEADED with me for
help.

Thomas Wiehe: Did you teach in [the] Sai school?

David Bailey: Yes, I taught in the college in Prashanthi ah...
for three, three-and-a-half years. Not all year, but for periods
of six weeks three or four times a year. Thomas Wiehe: In music?

David Bailey: In music. I prepared the music for Christmas, for
Guru Purnima and sometimes the birthday so it meant being with
the boys perhaps up to six or seven hours every day. And I've a
very close relationship with them and with one or two members of
staff to. I know EXACTLY what goes on there. When Faye and I
discovered what we knew, we decided that we felt it was better
to be silent because there are so many people there who rely on
him and that's why we continued with the magazine - not to stop
the magazine... but to continue it to give things for people to
move on to. Not to change from one guru to another but to find
the god within.