*Membership spots not really limited!

cheese

So, I've been pretty consistent in what I've been saying about this series: I've really enjoyed it for what it is. I've been pretty baffled by the negative responses to it, because it's not really like Bendis has done something so horrific in the book that it deserves harsh criticism -- I'm totally lost as to how something like Age of Apocalypse is so highly regarded when, to be blunt, that stuff was, well...let's just say it was the 90s at its worst.

I really wish Bendis had more time to explore the Marvel Universe he's set up without Hank Pym that we saw in Age of Ultron #8. I am truly interested in seeing what Bendis would have done with that set of characters -- the Defenders, Tony Stark, Frost and Professor Xavier -- at that particular time.

It was really something to read it -- it's like, because there was no real continuity to speak of, Bendis was able to give you the standard characterizations of the people that you would expect...but at the same time, it was clear that it was something where not being encumbered with continuity's restraints allows him to have them interact more freely.

Look. There are good things and bad things about continuity. Great writers work well with it just as easily as great writers chafe under it.

But for this set of characters, for this storyline, it was clear to me that Bendis could likely have written the hell out of this Age of Ultron set of characters, moving forward.

That's where I am with comics today -- I like continuity when it's done well, which is my main issue with the New 52: Most of that, IMO, hasn't been done well. But I'm not married to it. I've enjoyed Age of Ultron because at the end of the day, comics are still about possibilities. When you have a talented creator -- and Bendis is -- writing about a set of characters and ideas that he's come up with, you usually can get something good out of that.

There's only two issues left in Age of Ultron, and that's good -- events need to end more quickly than not. But boy, I do kinda wish that Starkguard and Morgana Le Fey and Colonel America...hell, I do kinda wish Bendis had a little more time to play with that.

cheese

So, I've been pretty consistent in what I've been saying about this series: I've really enjoyed it for what it is. I've been pretty baffled by the negative responses to it, because it's not really like Bendis has done something so horrific in the book that it deserves harsh criticism -- I'm totally lost as to how something like Age of Apocalypse is so highly regarded when, to be blunt, that stuff was, well...let's just say it was the 90s at its worst.

I really wish Bendis had more time to explore the Marvel Universe he's set up without Hank Pym that we saw in Age of Ultron #8. I am truly interested in seeing what Bendis would have done with that set of characters -- the Defenders, Tony Stark, Frost and Professor Xavier -- at that particular time.

It was really something to read it -- it's like, because there was no real continuity to speak of, Bendis was able to give you the standard characterizations of the people that you would expect...but at the same time, it was clear that it was something where not being encumbered with continuity's restraints allows him to have them interact more freely.

Look. There are good things and bad things about continuity. Great writers work well with it just as easily as great writers chafe under it.

But for this set of characters, for this storyline, it was clear to me that Bendis could likely have written the hell out of this Age of Ultron set of characters, moving forward.

That's where I am with comics today -- I like continuity when it's done well, which is my main issue with the New 52: Most of that, IMO, hasn't been done well. But I'm not married to it. I've enjoyed Age of Ultron because at the end of the day, comics are still about possibilities. When you have a talented creator -- and Bendis is -- writing about a set of characters and ideas that he's come up with, you usually can get something good out of that.

There's only two issues left in Age of Ultron, and that's good -- events need to end more quickly than not. But boy, I do kinda wish that Starkguard and Morgana Le Fey and Colonel America...hell, I do kinda wish Bendis had a little more time to play with that.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

cheese

habitual wrote:The real criticism comes from the fact that it cost people 25 bucks before anything happened. Which is utter shit no matter how you justify it period.

Hab

Hab, you're one of my favorite posters, but I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with you on that. I don't know how that narrative has taken root like it has.

In the first issue, you saw the absolute destruction of the East Coast and got a good feel for who the survivors were.

In the second issue, you saw that the destruction was on the West Coast, as well, through the perspective of Black Widow and Moon Knight. Those two also discovered Nick Fury's plan for how to end Ultron before he even starts.

In the third issue, we saw how other survivors were attempting to formulate plans and operate against desperate odds, had Black Panther get killed, and Luke Cage and She-Hulk embark on a suicide run for intel, where they find that Ultron isn't even in the present.

In the fourth issue, Luke Cage and She-Hulk are killed, Red Hulk kills the Taskmaster, the surviving heroes go to the Savage Land and propose the idea of ending Ultron before he is even created.

So in four issues, you saw both coasts with separate sets of heroes, saw multiple heroes and humans get massacred, had the heroes who survived meet up and come up with a plan.

There's nothing wrong with that pacing. Nothing. I've complained about Bendis and slow pacing for years. I hate decompression. But I am baffled at how people want to rush through seeing the totality of destruction, the hopelessness of the situation, that would cause Wolverine to go back in time and murder a hero in cold blood.

I am baffled at how people wanted that to move faster. I'm as impatient as anybody -- more than most -- and I am BAFFLED at how anyone wanted that to move faster.

cheese

habitual wrote:The real criticism comes from the fact that it cost people 25 bucks before anything happened. Which is utter shit no matter how you justify it period.

Hab

Hab, you're one of my favorite posters, but I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with you on that. I don't know how that narrative has taken root like it has.

In the first issue, you saw the absolute destruction of the East Coast and got a good feel for who the survivors were.

In the second issue, you saw that the destruction was on the West Coast, as well, through the perspective of Black Widow and Moon Knight. Those two also discovered Nick Fury's plan for how to end Ultron before he even starts.

In the third issue, we saw how other survivors were attempting to formulate plans and operate against desperate odds, had Black Panther get killed, and Luke Cage and She-Hulk embark on a suicide run for intel, where they find that Ultron isn't even in the present.

In the fourth issue, Luke Cage and She-Hulk are killed, Red Hulk kills the Taskmaster, the surviving heroes go to the Savage Land and propose the idea of ending Ultron before he is even created.

So in four issues, you saw both coasts with separate sets of heroes, saw multiple heroes and humans get massacred, had the heroes who survived meet up and come up with a plan.

There's nothing wrong with that pacing. Nothing. I've complained about Bendis and slow pacing for years. I hate decompression. But I am baffled at how people want to rush through seeing the totality of destruction, the hopelessness of the situation, that would cause Wolverine to go back in time and murder a hero in cold blood.

I am baffled at how people wanted that to move faster. I'm as impatient as anybody -- more than most -- and I am BAFFLED at how anyone wanted that to move faster.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

Silly French Man

ElijahSnowFan wrote:Hab, you're one of my favorite posters, but I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with you on that. I don't know how that narrative has taken root like it has.

In the first issue, you saw the absolute destruction of the East Coast and got a good feel for who the survivors were.

In the second issue, you saw that the destruction was on the West Coast, as well, through the perspective of Black Widow and Moon Knight. Those two also discovered Nick Fury's plan for how to end Ultron before he even starts.

In the third issue, we saw how other survivors were attempting to formulate plans and operate against desperate odds, had Black Panther get killed, and Luke Cage and She-Hulk embark on a suicide run for intel, where they find that Ultron isn't even in the present.

In the fourth issue, Luke Cage and She-Hulk are killed, Red Hulk kills the Taskmaster, the surviving heroes go to the Savage Land and propose the idea of ending Ultron before he is even created.

So in four issues, you saw both coasts with separate sets of heroes, saw multiple heroes and humans get massacred, had the heroes who survived meet up and come up with a plan.

There's nothing wrong with that pacing. Nothing. I've complained about Bendis and slow pacing for years. I hate decompression. But I am baffled at how people want to rush through seeing the totality of destruction, the hopelessness of the situation, that would cause Wolverine to go back in time and murder a hero in cold blood.

I am baffled at how people wanted that to move faster. I'm as impatient as anybody -- more than most -- and I am BAFFLED at how anyone wanted that to move faster.

Those four issues could've easily happened in one. What your describing in your first three paragraphs could easily be extrapolated from the first 2 pages of issue one of this series.

What really cracks me up is if you take a look at this story from the boiler plate perspective, it's entirely House of M, structurally.

Silly French Man

ElijahSnowFan wrote:Hab, you're one of my favorite posters, but I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with you on that. I don't know how that narrative has taken root like it has.

In the first issue, you saw the absolute destruction of the East Coast and got a good feel for who the survivors were.

In the second issue, you saw that the destruction was on the West Coast, as well, through the perspective of Black Widow and Moon Knight. Those two also discovered Nick Fury's plan for how to end Ultron before he even starts.

In the third issue, we saw how other survivors were attempting to formulate plans and operate against desperate odds, had Black Panther get killed, and Luke Cage and She-Hulk embark on a suicide run for intel, where they find that Ultron isn't even in the present.

In the fourth issue, Luke Cage and She-Hulk are killed, Red Hulk kills the Taskmaster, the surviving heroes go to the Savage Land and propose the idea of ending Ultron before he is even created.

So in four issues, you saw both coasts with separate sets of heroes, saw multiple heroes and humans get massacred, had the heroes who survived meet up and come up with a plan.

There's nothing wrong with that pacing. Nothing. I've complained about Bendis and slow pacing for years. I hate decompression. But I am baffled at how people want to rush through seeing the totality of destruction, the hopelessness of the situation, that would cause Wolverine to go back in time and murder a hero in cold blood.

I am baffled at how people wanted that to move faster. I'm as impatient as anybody -- more than most -- and I am BAFFLED at how anyone wanted that to move faster.

Those four issues could've easily happened in one. What your describing in your first three paragraphs could easily be extrapolated from the first 2 pages of issue one of this series.

What really cracks me up is if you take a look at this story from the boiler plate perspective, it's entirely House of M, structurally.

cheese

Those four issues could've easily happened in one. What your describing in your first three paragraphs could easily be extrapolated from the first 2 pages of issue one of this series.

What really cracks me up is if you take a look at this story from the boiler plate perspective, it's entirely House of M, structurally.

Hab

And if you want to say that is a great reason to criticize this story, I will not argue that point. While all stories are derivative, this one certainly mirrors the structure of something Bendis wrote previously for Marvel.

But that being said, this series, IMO, has been done properly, as far as pacing was concerned. Because this was never going to be about somebody punching Ultron, the fight ending, and the next thing we see is Poker Night at Avengers Mansion.

It was NEVER going to be that way, because for whatever reason that made sense back in the day, Marvel established that Ultron was damn near unbeatable, especially when he got the adamantium body and ability to evolve. This story had to be written, at some point, because 35 years ago, Marvel established that there was simply no way that Ultron wasn't going to kill us all. Bendis hasn't reinvented the wheel, here -- I remember asking myself multiple times as a kid, "Why the hell would somebody build something like Ultron?"

That's why I give Bendis the latitude to tell this story -- in many ways, he's offering service to, what, a dozen or so stories that have been established about Ultron over decades. He's showing the end of mankind as we know it.

Wolverine's a killer. But to get to the point where he murders a hero who had yet to do anything wrong...that is a powerful story. What Wolverine did...it's horrible. But at the same time, it was necessary -- Ultron had killed us all! Yeah, there might be fates worse than death, but if you're dead, you have nothing to compare it to, right?

That's why this story...I like this series. As Victorian Squid said, that's fairly clear. But that's because it's not as simple as punching Ultron or talking to Hank Pym -- the consequences of what Hank Pym did years ago...they mattered! It all mattered! We should be glad that Marvel told this story, because again, whereas DC just threw all their shit out and left every reader who read anything in the past out in the cold, Marvel at least respected their history and told a story that matters that is pulled directly from stories that we've read.

cheese

Those four issues could've easily happened in one. What your describing in your first three paragraphs could easily be extrapolated from the first 2 pages of issue one of this series.

What really cracks me up is if you take a look at this story from the boiler plate perspective, it's entirely House of M, structurally.

Hab

And if you want to say that is a great reason to criticize this story, I will not argue that point. While all stories are derivative, this one certainly mirrors the structure of something Bendis wrote previously for Marvel.

But that being said, this series, IMO, has been done properly, as far as pacing was concerned. Because this was never going to be about somebody punching Ultron, the fight ending, and the next thing we see is Poker Night at Avengers Mansion.

It was NEVER going to be that way, because for whatever reason that made sense back in the day, Marvel established that Ultron was damn near unbeatable, especially when he got the adamantium body and ability to evolve. This story had to be written, at some point, because 35 years ago, Marvel established that there was simply no way that Ultron wasn't going to kill us all. Bendis hasn't reinvented the wheel, here -- I remember asking myself multiple times as a kid, "Why the hell would somebody build something like Ultron?"

That's why I give Bendis the latitude to tell this story -- in many ways, he's offering service to, what, a dozen or so stories that have been established about Ultron over decades. He's showing the end of mankind as we know it.

Wolverine's a killer. But to get to the point where he murders a hero who had yet to do anything wrong...that is a powerful story. What Wolverine did...it's horrible. But at the same time, it was necessary -- Ultron had killed us all! Yeah, there might be fates worse than death, but if you're dead, you have nothing to compare it to, right?

That's why this story...I like this series. As Victorian Squid said, that's fairly clear. But that's because it's not as simple as punching Ultron or talking to Hank Pym -- the consequences of what Hank Pym did years ago...they mattered! It all mattered! We should be glad that Marvel told this story, because again, whereas DC just threw all their shit out and left every reader who read anything in the past out in the cold, Marvel at least respected their history and told a story that matters that is pulled directly from stories that we've read.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

Rain Partier

clearly somebody in Outhouse management is slipping ESF some cash to write this in order to generate some unique hits. b/c I could maybe see someone saying "I don't hate this" about AoU, but spending this much time expounding about how much they actually enjoy it...that's clearly a step too far. obvious joke/troll thread is obvious, IMMO.

Rain Partier

clearly somebody in Outhouse management is slipping ESF some cash to write this in order to generate some unique hits. b/c I could maybe see someone saying "I don't hate this" about AoU, but spending this much time expounding about how much they actually enjoy it...that's clearly a step too far. obvious joke/troll thread is obvious, IMMO.

cheese

chap22 wrote:clearly somebody in Outhouse management is slipping ESF some cash to write this in order to generate some unique hits. b/c I could maybe see someone saying "I don't hate this" about AoU, but spending this much time expounding about how much they actually enjoy it...that's clearly a step too far. obvious joke/troll thread is obvious, IMMO.

HA! But no, I'm serious -- I've been quietly reading the AU threads, as I have time, and I haven't always had the time to participate, but I've been totally confused about why so many people hated it. I didn't have the time to defend it, but as I said, I've been baffled about exactly what people hated about this.

Bryan Hitch's work in the first five issues was tremendous. Brandon Peterson and Carlos Pacheco have been really good, too.

The characterizations have been fine -- Bendis has written each of the characters he's used numerous times, so there hasn't been any crazy usages for what the characters have been before.

It's got all the time travel and alternate timeline stuff that people always seem to like in other stories -- I just don't get it, where the hatred has come from.

You know I've read tens of thousands of comics, as have you. I'm totally lost on what is so bad about this series, especially compared with other things that have been published throughout the years that people have liked.

My big thing is this: There's so much to complain about in comics, the shit that these companies pull at times. It frustrates me when a narrative takes root about a series that isn't fair, because there's so much out there that needs honest criticism that when we focus on things about series that aren't necessarily true, we sound like the irrational fanbase that people use to marginalize any valid criticism of work.

cheese

chap22 wrote:clearly somebody in Outhouse management is slipping ESF some cash to write this in order to generate some unique hits. b/c I could maybe see someone saying "I don't hate this" about AoU, but spending this much time expounding about how much they actually enjoy it...that's clearly a step too far. obvious joke/troll thread is obvious, IMMO.

HA! But no, I'm serious -- I've been quietly reading the AU threads, as I have time, and I haven't always had the time to participate, but I've been totally confused about why so many people hated it. I didn't have the time to defend it, but as I said, I've been baffled about exactly what people hated about this.

Bryan Hitch's work in the first five issues was tremendous. Brandon Peterson and Carlos Pacheco have been really good, too.

The characterizations have been fine -- Bendis has written each of the characters he's used numerous times, so there hasn't been any crazy usages for what the characters have been before.

It's got all the time travel and alternate timeline stuff that people always seem to like in other stories -- I just don't get it, where the hatred has come from.

You know I've read tens of thousands of comics, as have you. I'm totally lost on what is so bad about this series, especially compared with other things that have been published throughout the years that people have liked.

My big thing is this: There's so much to complain about in comics, the shit that these companies pull at times. It frustrates me when a narrative takes root about a series that isn't fair, because there's so much out there that needs honest criticism that when we focus on things about series that aren't necessarily true, we sound like the irrational fanbase that people use to marginalize any valid criticism of work.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

Marc Spector's crazy, but a highly trained mercenary. Black Widow's a highly trained spy who has worked with Nick Fury for years. If anyone would find one of his safe houses, they would, working together.

Doctor Doom's time platform. Nick Fury having another safe house where he would hole up. Wolverine killing someone, anyone, if he believes it's for the greater good.

It's one thing to offer valid criticism, Blue. It's another thing entirely to hit-and-run, offer nothing to the conversation but a one-liner, and then expect someone who is actually reading each of these issues to take you seriously.

Marc Spector's crazy, but a highly trained mercenary. Black Widow's a highly trained spy who has worked with Nick Fury for years. If anyone would find one of his safe houses, they would, working together.

Doctor Doom's time platform. Nick Fury having another safe house where he would hole up. Wolverine killing someone, anyone, if he believes it's for the greater good.

It's one thing to offer valid criticism, Blue. It's another thing entirely to hit-and-run, offer nothing to the conversation but a one-liner, and then expect someone who is actually reading each of these issues to take you seriously.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity