LFM: Mature and civilized discussion of addons

Hi everybody. Recently we've been on a little timeout from talking about addons because it just seems to be a topic where everyone goes nuts and tries to burn eachother alive, instead of talking in constructive ways. It's time to give it another whirl. Fresh, and revamped, this topic will be kept clean and without insult.

As it stands, we have this quote to go on:

What we’ve said is, regarding the question ‘Will there be addons at launch’ is “no, not at launch”.

This statement indicates nothing more than that there will not be addons at launch. Nothing more, nothing less.”

TOR will not feature addons at launch, but the possibility (and probablity) of bringing them in post launch is still there.

There are a few features included for your UI, such as moving your chat boxes where ever you'd like them, as well as creating custom chat boxes. You can also move and size your party/raid frames in a few ways, such as making them bigger for healers. You can also expand your action bar setup so you have 2 at the bottom of your screen, and 1 to the left and right side, for a total of 4.

What's missing? Things such as moving and changing the number of slots on your action bars; moving of your UI pieces (other than raid frames); macros; addons; and probably a few other things I missed.

So, what are your thoughts? If TOR's designed their game to not really need these things, is it still a burden on you? Is the lack of personal customization and addons at launch something that really rubs you the wrong way? Is the exclusion of macros enough to make your gaming experience less enjoyable?

Discuss your thoughts, hopes, and worries. Just stay constructive and be nice to eachother.

*Name calling and slang to belittle a person such as: casuals, noob, idiot, scrub, carebear, etc, will not be tolerated.

I think the main reason that Addons became so popular with other games was because their UI was less than stellar. I for one am all for no addons so long as the system itself is a good and very workable system. If the default UI is on par then I do not see them needing to add addons at all. The only area of concern I have would possibly be healing. If we could do mouseover macros though i would be content as i did that all through BC.

I actually don't really care about addons. It really depends on how the game has been developed.

If the game was made to "be playable" without addons then there really isn't going to be any difference. But as an example, Blizz stated on of the their Q&A's in WotLK that they had been forced to take into consideration addons like Deadly Boss Mods when designing PvE encounters. Now whether that meant/means making stuff harder or changing it completely I have no idea, but it is just something to keep in mind.

I see no reason to not have macro's in the game though... WITH LIMITATIONS.
Stuff like proc-tracking-1-button-spam macros should not be allowed, but something like the ability to have simple /castsequence or mouseover macros would be adequate. Knowing I'm going to play a healer (at the very least in off-spec), the thought of having to click heal just makes me want to slam my face into the desk. It just wastes so much time. Mouseover macros is a must for me.

Maybe I've been a little spoiled by other mmos, but if you're not going to have addons in at launch, macros have to be in my opinion.

The only area that I want more than others is just a movable icons. Maybe something like rift where you can really customize it. Add ons would just be a god addition, but really not a requirement. As for recount, I'm undecided about it being in game. Now it could cause players be more competitive and work harder to do their best, but then it could cause headaches with members raging on players that don't do as well.

i still have the standard action bars on the bottom of my screen but the player portraits are Xperl, i use atlas loot and i have heal bot up,, i only keep it up on certain toons, priest cause well healing, my enhancement shaman so i can toss free instant heals.. and my hunter because i can attach Misdirect onto it

heh and ya Blzn this is what mine use to be years ago

the cluttered actionbars has not really changed at all for shaman, and yes i know there is a lot of non spell stuff i need up there but i have it there anyway heh

---------- Post added 2011-10-28 at 12:23 AM ----------

rofl.. added can you guys see what spells i havent moved in years?

---------- Post added 2011-10-28 at 12:24 AM ----------

my screen size has changed to, thats why the picture sizes are different

Addon's is something that I feel is great and horrible at the same time. I enjoy them when I have them, but I've made a point to not count on them. I won't be hurt by not having them, but the convience is nice. The problem is people depend on addons, and it almost can become an addiction. Which is why some people get so defensive about addons.

I think addons can bring a lot to the game, but they can take away a lot too. I would be in favor of addons that Bioware creates, optional parts of the UI. Such as they could make a recount, an omen threat meter, an x-perl/healbot, and allow it to be turned on and off. Even if they made it to where it just has to be approved by them but let others create it, that could work too (much like Apple apps). But when people go crazy with addons and have addons for EVERYTHING (such as popping up and telling you your rotation, or the big ICC marker one where you could draw like it was MS Paint), it gets crazy.

Macro's I think is insane that they won't be apart of the game at launch. I anticipate macro's will come in the game fairly shortly (within 6 months), and addons probably not for at least a year.

In my opinion, some addons are acceptable. As long as they dont help trivialize the game, one's like recount, atlasloot, titan panel are fine. They don't improve your playstyle at all by themselves. I dislike one's like DBM, and healbot. As they improve your overall playstyle (healbot more-so when you are used to it).

I'm under the belief that if a game is done right, it doesn't need addons, because (ideally) everything a player could need is included in the software. Everyone is on equal footing.

For combat, I think that with a game like WoW, players relied too hard on addons to counter difficulty. Blizzard seemed to manipulate fight tactics to make an encounter more difficult for those with the addons. Unfortunately, this made the game extremely difficult without the addons, and thus they became more or less requirements (by guilds) as a result. It seems more that they were needed because they existed, if that makes sense.

Generally though for UI, a peeve I have with some games is the inability to change font size. This is really problematic when I go to 1920 X 1200, and that nice 12 pt font I had is now super tiny. Other than that, the other stuff is nice too, moving stuff, resizing, adding / closing chat-boxes, and so on.

For recount hmm, I'd just as soon leave it for now anyways. If you win you win, if you lose you lose. Be proactive and figure out what happened (part of the fun right?). Recount just makes people play worse to get bigger numbers (OK maybe not all the time, but when that does happen it muddles the data for comparison anyways).

edit: Recount has become a staple for raiding though, so it does come in handy. But I'm hoping with all the nice animations and choreographed combat in TOR it will be evident who is working hard and who isn't. I remember early WoW raiding when I would watch the animations instead of addon boxes

But going back to my first statement, as long as addons are not needed, then there is no reason for them to exist. But once they exist it's hard to get rid of them and the game now becomes tied to those required addons.

From what I have seen in screenshots, the SW:ToR UI seems decent enough. I like that the healthbars are not in top left corner of the screen. Most things will just take getting used to, but most people will get used to it fairly quickly.

I'm not sure how I feel about addons, I know playing WoW that I love them and use them a lot! However, when I played Rift, I was completely fine with what I had to work with. Granted Rift gives you a lot more customizability than WoW does with the default UI.

I know a lot of people are asking for some form of Recount, but honestly this can be circumvented by having an in-game leaderboard available after each fight, and maybe it saves it for a set amount of time so you can go back and see how much more damage you did than last week, or how much more you did than others. Same could work for healing as well.

I do hope, that if they do not allow addons at all, that there is some form of bag management. The addon I couldn't live without above all else, is probably ArkInventory. It makes everything so much easier to find, so I hope there is something similar already incorporated into the default UI.

I'm under the belief that if a game is done right, it doesn't need addons, because (ideally) everything a player could need is included in the software. Everyone is on equal footing.

For combat, I think that with a game like WoW, players relied too hard on addons to counter difficulty. Blizzard seemed to manipulate fight tactics to make an encounter more difficult for those with the addons. Unfortunately, this made the game extremely difficult without the addons, and thus they became more or less requirements (by guilds) as a result. If seems more that they were needed because they existed, if that makes sense.

Generally though for UI, a peeve I have with some games is the inability to change font size. This is really problematic when I go to 1920 X 1200, and that nice 12 pt font I had is now super tiny. Other than that, the other stuff is nice too, moving stuff, resizing, adding / closing chat-boxes, and so on.

For recount hmm, I'd just as soon leave it for now anyways. If you win you win, if you lose you lose. Be proactive and figure out what happened (part of the fun right?). Recount just makes people play worse to get bigger numbers (OK maybe not all the time, but when that does happen it muddles the data for comparison anyways).

But going back to my first statement, as long as addons are not needed, then there is no reason for them to exist. But once they exist it's hard to get rid of them and the game now becomes tied to those required addons.

If that's confusing let me know. :>

I have to agree with that statement. Before dbm in vanilla wow, the fights were complicated, but not crazy complicated. They did have to incr the challenge that these mods added to the game. If they allow mods then be strict on ones they allow. Like how the in game items that change color of your light saber, that just nice small additions and keep any of the stuff that messes with operations out. I do agree that micro's need to be added ASAP. Hopefully before release they will be added or soon after. I mean they siad in interviews that they just added another big patch.

I've always had an uneasy relationship with addons. Do addons like DBM and Healbot add functionality, and enable a "higher level" of gameplay than is possible in the base experience? Unquestionably, and it's a good experience to have. The problem is in how that experience comes about. Addon-makers feel like they have to do whatever they can do give every advantage possible to their players. Developers in turn have to craft harder content to foil the addon-makers, and it turns into this never ending videogame arms race.

DBM style raid warnings are helpful, mouseover healing is generally more efficient; the problem is the idea of them being aftermarket addons. Players that are even remotely into raiding feel forced to get them to stay competitive, but what happens when your addons get borked? What happens when there's a patch and suddenly your addons don't work? I've had plenty of raids where the DBM timers were off by as little as one second, and ended with our entire raid jumping into a spell effect to their death at once. Funny, but not especially productive. The problem is they're aftermarket addons, crudely bolted onto the game. If you, as developers, want raid warnings and mouseover healing and all of that, it should be built into the basic gameplay. If you don't want those types of things, then why allow addons in the first place?

Everyone's mileage may vary of course, but personally the only one I could see liking is something like recount, but with nowhere near as much functionality. I don't want to see everyone and their dog spamming their DPS epeens after every trash fight. I just want something that will let me see my personal numbers, so I can judge things like "Oh hey, my new rotation is a dps loss. I guess it wasn't such a good idea after all". Even then, I REALLY think that personal DPS meters are something that would be better built into the game itself.

Basically... I guess, I like what addons do, but I hate how they do it.

Personally I'm fine with out addons as long as you can still play the game efficiently and with out to much of a struggle when I first found out about addons in wow I initially thought OK this is just a luxury but when I got into raiding I found that a threat meter was sort of needed same thing with a DPS meter. So in TOR if you can get around just fine I don't feel addons are needed but 6 months after its release or so if we get addons and there actually needed to to watch threat and DPS and what ever else then I would see no problems with it but if its gonna just turn out to be a luxury thing I don't really find much of a point in using them.

Does this mean SW: ToR will include a built-in damage/healing/etc. meter?

If not, it seems a very serious issue, capable of compromising the whole endgame, since there will be no easy way to quickly figure out whether you need to replace someone in the group, as well as knowing how well you are doing while still in combat.