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Not a single hit Buizel used landed on Empoleon. That's simply unacceptable at this stage of the game. Ash's lack of a mature battle style has grown really weary. The boy makes too many mistakes to be as experienced as he is.

Ok, after actually watching the episode now, I don't mind Buizel's loss. Ash was trying out a new battling style after all. It seems that Flint's style is in general to negate the opponents attacks through blocks or your own attacks, then strike back with full power attacks. Though it's quite a tankish style, which we know Ash doesn't do too well with! Hopefully he'll implement it quite well in the league.

Does anyone know what Brock was saying to Kenny? It's fairly obvious he knows that Kenny likes Dawn.

Ok, after actually watching the episode now, I don't mind Buizel's loss. Ash was trying out a new battling style after all. It seems that Flint's style is in general to negate the opponents attacks through blocks or your own attacks, then strike back with full power attacks. Though it's quite a tankish style, which we know Ash doesn't do too well with! Hopefully he'll implement it quite well in the league.

That's what annoys me about the whole business. Ash should know better than to try another person's fighting style at this point. It was just a cheap excuse to hand Kenny the win.

Well, the battle seemed to stem from the night training (despite the fact that I can't make heads or tails of what they're saying). After Ash was training Buizel, Buizel's Sonicboom was aimed at Empoleon by accident, and that set the two up for the eventual battle. If it weren't for that training, we might have seen some different (better) battle.

Yes, an excuse on the fact that Buizel lost is that Ash was trying out Flint's battle style, block then counter... This doesn't mean Ash is weak or anything, but poor Buizel... I don't think he's won any major battles yet, hasn't he?

Odd? How could a tree deflect repeated hits from a Sonic Boom attack? That incident was why Ash went with Buizel... but if it hadn't happened, would he fight just as... hard with some other Pokemon of his? Or would he loose with someone like Pikachu with the Block-then-Counter Tactic?

It seemed like Brock knows about Kenny's... feelings for Dawn, whether romantic or not, since he has a knowing look throughout the episode... Hopefully, someone will be able to translate his pep talk...
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Yes, I'm a PenguinShipper, so hopefully, nothing I said was harsh or... mean or anything offensive...
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That's what annoys me about the whole business. Ash should know better than to try another person's fighting style at this point. It was just a cheap excuse to hand Kenny the win.

But if it comes back to him in a good way in the league, then the loss will have been for a good cause, no? Personally, it's not so much that he lost against Kenny that annoyed me, but that he lost at all this close to the league. I was worried about an obvious good showing in the league looking forced after so many losses, but this development could make Ash's wins in the league look very good indeed. League wins>wins against randomers IMO

That's the thing, if he's making such bad mistakes this late in the arc and losing one-sided battles to amateur coordinators, he either needs to move back home and open a daycare center, or pray the DEM gods like him enough to make any decent progress in the league.

So my point still stands.

No, it doesn't.

If Ash actually used type advantages he would have won. He was trying a new battle technique. It's not a bad decision at all. Kenny is not an amateur Coordinator either. His Empoleon has been established as very strong. Buizel stood no chance, especially since it's not Ash's main star. Honeslty, Kenny was going to win for plot purposes..this battle has no bearing whatsoever on Ash's league battles. Ash didn't even give a damn that he lost. If it was simply just him losing, then yeah I would have had an issue and did until I found out exactly what he was trying to do.

Originally Posted by midnightjewelz

Ash lost to Kenny? Good luck in the league Ash! If Ash defeats Paul and not Kenny than i would just laugh my head off, like Ash can beat Bradon and not Paul. lol.

Too bad this was a Kenny redemption episode, and the Battle was only 1 v 1. People are blowing this defeat way out of proportion. The characters actually said Ash didn't win because he was trying someone else's battle style. It's really not that hard to grasp.

The only thing this episode had to do with the League is that Dawn will continue to cheer for Ash, and Flint will try to challenge Cynthia.

As for Kenny, he seemed damaged after the GF failure, and losing Dawn to Ash. In a way, Dawn was the heroine of the episode because she had to make him realize that the most important thing for them was follow their goals.

There are two possibilities for Dawn at this point. Either go to the same region Kenny does. But since Kenny never mentioned a region the way Drew did to May it seems less likely Dawn will follow him.

The emphasis was on "I will decide on my own after the League", so I believe it will be something unexpected.

Ok, after actually watching the episode now, I don't mind Buizel's loss. Ash was trying out a new battling style after all. It seems that Flint's style is in general to negate the opponents attacks through blocks or your own attacks, then strike back with full power attacks. Though it's quite a tankish style, which we know Ash doesn't do too well with! Hopefully he'll implement it quite well in the league.

Does anyone know what Brock was saying to Kenny? It's fairly obvious he knows that Kenny likes Dawn.

Funny how with the tankish strategy, Ash didn't use his tank pokemon Torterra for the training, especially after all they've shown about how it's supposed to be used as the tank with taking attacks and dishing it back. But then again, aside from a few instances, the writers decided to make Ash's Torterra different from Paul's by making it a direct attacker.

Blue likes the Dancing Trpinch so should you.If you approve of Black and White's new anime-only lead Iris, put this in your sig(started by TrainerOfLegend)

Finally seen this one today, I couldn't find it anywhere yesterday. I remember saying that I was going to be really mad if Ash lost to Kenny, but since it wasn't a full 6 vs 6 battle, I really don't care. Seeing Jasmine again was pretty cool, but her battle against Flint was over way too quick. It was also nice to see a flashback of Flint in the league as a kid, but poor Monferno got flattened by that Snorlax. Overall this was an OK episode, not too bad.

Kinda funny when you think about the fact Ash lost to Kenny here, and yet he's going to beat Nando a few episodes later. The same Nando who made it to the semi-finals of the torunament Kenny failed miserably at, and was pretty much even with Zoey. Pokemon's trainer "power-levels", make about as much sense as Bleach's.

I do believe that Contests rely more on appearance than "power-levels". Strength is important, but Kenny's Empoleon could very well be strong. In fact, Empoleon's strength in his Flash Cannon resulted in his Appeal loss.

On the "Everybody wants Dawn" thing: A few people seem to be arguing that Dawn will appear in the next region. Did May continue with Ash to Sinnoh? No, she went with Drew (her friend and nothing else at the moment) to Jhoto. Dawn told Kenny that she wished to support Ash at the League, but she knows she will see him in the future.

In my opinion, her fate will end up like the situation with May and Drew. Dawn will watch Ash in the Leagues (where he will probably not win) and then go to whtever region Kenny visits. This doesn't mean that Dawn and Kenny will get together, as I expect Zoey, Nando, and Ursula to go to the same region as Kenny too.

Yes, an excuse on the fact that Buizel lost is that Ash was trying out Flint's battle style, block then counter... This doesn't mean Ash is weak or anything, but poor Buizel... I don't think he's won any major battles yet, hasn't he?

Odd? How could a tree deflect repeated hits from a Sonic Boom attack? That incident was why Ash went with Buizel... but if it hadn't happened, would he fight just as... hard with some other Pokemon of his? Or would he loose with someone like Pikachu with the Block-then-Counter Tactic?

It seemed like Brock knows about Kenny's... feelings for Dawn, whether romantic or not, since he has a knowing look throughout the episode... Hopefully, someone will be able to translate his pep talk...
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Yes, I'm a PenguinShipper, so hopefully, nothing I said was harsh or... mean or anything offensive...
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You sure like ellipses huh?

But anyways, on topic, I feel bad that Buizel had to be used as a punching bag/tester for Flint's battling style. Cause then he suffered an unnecessary loss against Kenny. And I think Kenny is pretty nooby compared to the rest of the Sinnoh Contest rivals.

I believe Dawn won't join Kenny. That "We'll meet again" phrase is probably just a way the writers are trying to hook people to the season until the ending episodes. I think Ash might make it this time to the Top 4, then maybe Dawn hears that Isshu has Contests(This is based on the assumption that the region does.) and follows Ash to the region.

Sigh... nothing expresses my feelings for this episode better than a good palm to the face.

Once again, Ash falls victim to the Strong As They Need To Be trope: after defeating Volkner - the strongest Gym Leader in all Sinnoh - in an awesome battle, the writers make him do some very stupid mistakes and have him lose to someone who shouldn't even be able to give him trouble in the very next episode.

Ash beat Volkner by pure plot. Luxray had Infernape beat(badly), and would have won hadn't Volkner suddenly stopped making it attack even downed mons.

Volkner: *Actively attacks, even when the enemy falls to the ground*
*Lights go out, interrupting the Final blow*
*Time go by, Luxray and Volkner do nothing*
*Infernape activates Blaze, and slowly walks towards Ash, back turned to his enemy.*
*Volkner does nothing.*
*Infernape gets to attack*

Stupidest ending to a fight so far in DP, I think.

Not to mention lol-static turning an easy fight for Electivire into a loss.

Originally Posted by Lily Nadesico

Really, are we expected to honestly believe that after all those battles, training and tests of characters, an experienced trainer would send a Buizel against an Empoleon? The mind boggles.

Ash often sends the "unexpected" mons in. It's a character trait.

Originally Posted by Lily Nadesico

Just like his latest match with, ugh, Paul (sorry, I hate the guy): Ash wouldn't have lost so crushingly if he hadn't magically forgot all he had learned about Pokemon battles...

Except he has never been as intelligent as in that fight. Ash from that fight would have slaughtered Ash at any other point of the series.
He made a total of two mistakes- one of them not because of his intelligence, but because of trust, when Buizel wanted to continue the fight against Ursaring.
The other one was leaving Grotle out. He miscalculated Honchkrow's speed.

I love how convenient this episode was for Kenny. He was trying to prove his strength, and Ash just happened to be trying new battle style he's never attempted before. If Ash never attempts this battle style again, this episode would have been ultimately pointless as far as Ash is concerned.

In all honesty I don't understand why everyone is so mad that he lost. It wasn't a stupid mistake on his part, he was just trying to practice a new strategy. And we can also see this as him trying to train a pokemon that hasn't been used much lately. And besides, this, to Ash anyway, was just a friendly battle. Nothing was on the line for Ash so why does it even matter?

That's a problem in itself. If Ash is already having second thoughts on his battle style this late before the league, then he just needs to pack up and go home, cause apparently he doesn't think his current style is good enough to win.

His Empoleon has been established as very strong. Buizel stood no chance, especially since it's not Ash's main star.

And Ash, being a four region experienced trainer who defeated Frontier Brains, should had been able to grow half a brain and realize this.

this battle has no bearing whatsoever on Ash's league battles.

Yes it does, as I stated before, if he's losing to coordinators at this point, he needs to just give up. A gym battler losing to a coordinator is like a wrestler losing to a ballerina in arm wrestling.

Ash didn't even give a damn that he lost.

Well that's the thing, if he wants to win this league so bad he should give a damn about his loses, especially if they're one-sided loses to coordinators like this one.

People are blowing this defeat way out of proportion.

As I said before, the reason we're making a big deal out of this loss is because it's so late in the series, just before the league. Ash shouldn't be losing battles this badly at this point.

Yes, it's poor writing. But this episode was designed to give Kenny redemption. It was also, designed to give Dawn some kinda of obstacle, and make her notice Kenny. He's was obsessed with her this entire episode. This episode gave Plot armor the Kenny. Not to mention Kenny was using his strongest Pokemon to one of Ash's weaker ones. They specifically mentioned that Ash lost, because he executed Flints battle style wrong. Brock said it was good practice.

Kenny lost in the appeal rounds of the GF because his Empoleon was too strong. He had something to prove. The writers are not going to allow him to lose again. That would look bad as his sendoff. Ash still has the Sinnoh League ahead of him to look good. He most likely will get to the finals, and do well against the Legendary trainer. Does that mean everyone in the league Ash beats, including Paul < Kenny? Hell no, this episode was just biased against Ash. He would have lost even if he used Torterra or Pikachu.

Besides Ash is going to defeat Nando, someone who made it to the semi-finals of the GF. If anything that'll make him look better. By the time the league rolls around and we start seeing full battles/ Ash using clever strageties to defeat his opponents the events of this BS biased battle will be overlooked by most.

Ash beat Volkner by pure plot. Luxray had Infernape beat(badly), and would have won hadn't Volkner suddenly stopped making it attack even downed mons.

Oh, please. Ash did an excellent showing there, you can't just say that he won because plot said so.

Not to mention lol-static turning an easy fight for Electivire into a loss.

So what? Volkner should have known better than to have his Electivire attack physically.

Ash often sends the "unexpected" mons in. It's a character trait.

He should know better at this point.

Except he has never been as intelligent as in that fight. Ash from that fight would have slaughtered Ash at any other point of the series.
He made a total of two mistakes- one of them not because of his intelligence, but because of trust, when Buizel wanted to continue the fight against Ursaring.
The other one was leaving Grotle out. He miscalculated Honchkrow's speed.

Try mentioning one fight were Ash was smarter.

Second fight against Surge.
Fighting Drake at the end of Orange League
Most battles against Frontier Brains
Second battle against Fantina
I could go on...

Really, he should have defeated that scumbag Paul at that point. Or, at least, not lose so badly and give Paul a run for his money. Paul's win was by pure plot, not Ash's against Volkner.

Yes, it's poor writing. But this episode was designed to give Kenny redemption. It was also, designed to give Dawn some kinda of obstacle, and make her notice Kenny. He's was obsessed with her this entire episode. This episode gave Plot armor the Kenny. Not to mention Kenny was using his strongest Pokemon to one of Ash's weaker ones. They specifically mentioned that Ash lost, because he executed Flints battle style wrong. Brock said it was good practice.

They should have given Kenny redemption in some other way, not simply by beating Ash through mere plot bias. Even if it was Kenny's strongest Pokemon against Ash's weakest, Ash is so much more experienced than Kenny that he should STILL have destroyed him.

And then they pull out the practice card to make it look like this defeat makes any lick of sense. I'm disgusted.

Kenny lost in the appeal rounds of the GF because his Empoleon was too strong. He had something to prove. The writers are not going to allow him to lose again. That would look bad as his sendoff. Ash still has the Sinnoh League ahead of him to look good. He most likely will get to the finals, and do well against the Legendary trainer. Does that mean everyone in the league Ash beats, including Paul < Kenny? Hell no, this episode was just biased against Ash. He would have lost even if he used Torterra or Pikachu.

Oh, so you admit that Kenny only won because of plot (just like Zoey in the Sinnoh GF, but I digress - Dawn should have won, period.). And frankly I wouldn't give two cents if he lost in his sendoff episode. I'm that indifferent to Kenny.

Besides Ash is going to defeat Nando, someone who made it to the semi-finals of the GF. If anything that'll make him look better. By the time the league rolls around and we start seeing full battles/ Ash using clever strageties to defeat his opponents the events of this BS biased battle will be overlooked by most.

I'll only overlook this fluke of a battle if Ash WINS the Sinnoh League. Maybe. I will still consider it extremely poor writing disguised as character development.

You do realize that Ash was more experienced since Kanto region in the original series. Kenny just started his journey a little earlier than Dawn. I think that Ash either trying the new battling style or Flint of the Elite Four convinced Ash to let Kenny win. Anyway, it was all set out for the best as well as a part of Ash's remaining days of training for the Sinnoh League.

I am here to help others to solve their problem,and I'm also the big fan of Kissshipping. But right now, I'm an Amourshipper.

You do realize that Ash was more experienced since Kanto region in the original series. Kenny just started his journey a little earlier than Dawn. I think that Ash either trying the new battling style or Flint of the Elite Four convinced Ash to let Kenny win. Anyway, it was all set out for the best as well as a part of Ash's remaining days of training for the Sinnoh League.

It was the former. I guess that's the only convincing way the writers could think of for Kenny to beat Ash. At this point though I no longer give a damn. Ash is battling Nando next week who has alot more interesting Pokemon ( aside form Kenny's Alakazam), and is probably a better battler too.