First off let me say how disappointed I am with this codex. How many daemon players are there? And what happens when all these shiny anti-daemon weapons come up against a big ol' slab of Chaos Space Marine or (heresy!) a Space Marine / IG army....

Grey Knights are meant to be able to tackle any force that can be thrown at them, and looking through the codex it just seems like they're lucky they might scrape a draw against anything without horns.Stuff like Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau they may be able to deal with, but anything in "proper" armour or with a load of mech will be overwhelm any Grey Knight force.

And that brings me to my next gripe, the cost of everything.275 for ultimate grand master draigo? ok we've seen uber characters before. But no character of any worth (in Grey Knight status) under 150 points???

And what do we get for Grey Knight goodness? They've lost their Str 6 weapons, they've lost WS 5, BS 5, they've become slightly shinier space marines with a few querks.

Paladins: 2 wound terminators. That extra wound is costing 15 points a terminator! 15!!! They don't have any extra WS and oh wow they gain Holocaust....i'd rather they just were able to take storm shields please. And an apothecary for 75 points....75 points to guard against if you ever roll a ONE on a 2+ armour save!!!! ARRRGHH!!

Purifiers: 24 points a model for a unit with no better stats than a normal space marine squad, and a funky flame power that the enemy gets armour saves against. Yay they can take 4 heavy weapons! Put Crowe with them and they become troops......and oh dear get charged with the enemy having Furious Charge and FNP.....FAIL. Seriously, not even Artificer armour?

Ven Dreads: 175 points. Reinforced Aegis...wow. Fortitude....ok I like Fortitude. 205 points for a ven dread with a t-l lascannon...FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL! You can get a Furioso Librarian for 175, or a BT Ven dread with t-l lascannon, tank hunters, extra armour, missile launcher and smoke launchers for less!

Grey Knight Terminators: So Grey Knight terminators are no more special than any other space marine terminators? Wow they can go up to Str 5.....i'd rather have the old terminators please. Much more effective.

Strike Squad: The only squad I don't have a real beef with cause they do what it says on the tin. Bit expensive, but then again same points as a BA assault squad, and don't even start on Death Company...

Interceptor Squad: When are you ever, EVER going to teleport a squad 30" into an enemy when you can't assault after teleporting? Wow we can flame a unit! And then stand there looking silly while you get taken apart by the return fire.

Stormraven: Jury is still out. I can't see them being used enough.

Purgation squad: Looks great! Astral Aim! yay! 4 guns able to hit anything in range even if it's out of LOS! But.......oh dear they get a cover save. And the max range of a purgation squad? 24". So there goes the idea of holding them at the back of the field safely out of range blasting every enemy in and out of sight. Which means you have to go for a rhino......which means you might as well take 2 heavy weapons.....which kind of negates the reason for a purgation squad........and on and on.

The thing is though Donfer I can see so much potential for a really cool GK force. I've done about 5 lists already and I like them....I just WISH Grey Knights had got the codex they really deserve. they're meant to be better than space marines. Not just better, but in a different stratosphere. Space marines should FEAR grey knights

And this codex has been.....watered down where it didn't need to be and beefed up where it shouldn't

First off let me say how disappointed I am with this codex. How many daemon players are there? And what happens when all these shiny anti-daemon weapons come up against a big ol' slab of Chaos Space Marine or (heresy!) a Space Marine / IG army....

Grey Knights are meant to be able to tackle any force that can be thrown at them, and looking through the codex it just seems like they're lucky they might scrape a draw against anything without horns.Stuff like Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau they may be able to deal with, but anything in "proper" armour or with a load of mech will be overwhelm any Grey Knight force.

we now stand better chances against any type of MEQ army then we did before. sure we lost S6 and WS5 but powerweapons make up for that by a good amount.

And that brings me to my next gripe, the cost of everything.

275 for ultimate grand master draigo? ok we've seen uber characters before. But no character of any worth (in Grey Knight status) under 150 points???

take one brotherhood champion if you want to spend few points in HQ. put him in a termie unit and they will be even more deadly then in the old codex.

And what do we get for Grey Knight goodness? They've lost their Str 6 weapons, they've lost WS 5, BS 5, they've become slightly shinier space marines with a few querks.

first of all. grey knights NEVER had BS 5. only our grandmaster had BS5. sure we lost S6 but can be buffed up to S5. WS5 but we got power weapons, go take a combat simulator and see that we do now more damage to space marines and the like then we did before. we do lower damage to horde type armies now, at close combat though.

Paladins: 2 wound terminators. That extra wound is costing 15 points a terminator! 15!!! They don't have any extra WS and oh wow they gain Holocaust....i'd rather they just were able to take storm shields please. And an apothecary for 75 points....75 points to guard against if you ever roll a ONE on a 2+ armour save!!!! ARRRGHH!!

paladins got one more WS then normal termies/gks. they got WS5. i dont know about how much you played against horde type armies but taking around 40 wounds caused by devilgaunts and the like wont leave you with much if you fail every 6th save. thats where fnp comes in handy. against high AP shots however it wont work

Purifiers: 24 points a model for a unit with no better stats than a normal space marine squad, and a funky flame power that the enemy gets armour saves against. Yay they can take 4 heavy weapons! Put Crowe with them and they become troops......and oh dear get charged with the enemy having Furious Charge and FNP.....FAIL. Seriously, not even Artificer armour?

for 24 points every one of them has the profile of a space marine seargent thats a huge difference. one more attack, stormbolters and power weapons. meaning you can shoot AND assault. no bolter can do that. and the heavy weapons. i dont know what codex you are reading but having up to 4 psycannons in a squad. all s7 with rending will kill 4 space marines and will penetrate once a landraider. no multimelter/plasmacannon is able to do so in a single round and at max range.

Ven Dreads: 175 points. Reinforced Aegis...wow. Fortitude....ok I like Fortitude. 205 points for a ven dread with a t-l lascannon...FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL! You can get a Furioso Librarian for 175, or a BT Ven dread with t-l lascannon, tank hunters, extra armour, missile launcher and smoke launchers for less!

noone ever said venerable dreads are worth their points. not even in space marine codices. but look at our normal deads so where is your point? a army got something they are superior in? you must be joking.

Grey Knight Terminators: So Grey Knight terminators are no more special than any other space marine terminators? Wow they can go up to Str 5.....i'd rather have the old terminators please. Much more effective.

you want the old terminators back? with their option for stormshield and thunderhammer? oh did i mention that our stormshields sucked in the previous edition and you could not exchange just the Nemesis force weapon for the hammer but had to take both?with our halberds and strength 5 we are able to kill the biggest threat of the enemy before they even strike. our thunderhammers are now able to hit at strength 10, they are able to penetrate landraiders and anything AV 14 on a 5+our weapon options overall are now better then they ever where.

Strike Squad: The only squad I don't have a real beef with cause they do what it says on the tin. Bit expensive, but then again same points as a BA assault squad, and don't even start on Death Company...

warp quake alone makes those guys exceptional objektive claimers with protection from last minute deepstrikers on top of that, powerweapons and stormbolters.. do i have to say more?

Interceptor Squad: When are you ever, EVER going to teleport a squad 30" into an enemy when you can't assault after teleporting? Wow we can flame a unit! And then stand there looking silly while you get taken apart by the return fire.

this is where i really saw that you are one simple minded player. ever thought about making your interceptors scoring and let em claim a objective or contest it? no? man im sorry for you...

Purgation squad: Looks great! Astral Aim! yay! 4 guns able to hit anything in range even if it's out of LOS! But.......oh dear they get a cover save. And the max range of a purgation squad? 24". So there goes the idea of holding them at the back of the field safely out of range blasting every enemy in and out of sight. Which means you have to go for a rhino......which means you might as well take 2 heavy weapons.....which kind of negates the reason for a purgation squad........and on and on.

where is your point in the 4+ coversave? you did cry because of MEQ units getting a coversave of 4+? ever thought about the AP of our weapon options (4) ? sure psycannon can rend but alone the fact that they can push enough wounds on a enemy squad will make them fail some saves. and that without the purgation squad beeing in any way of threat at all.

because giving a monstrous creature jump infantry like movement and that shunt ability will be cheap right? did you ever looked at codex: tyranids how much they pay for wings and that they dont even get the 30" shunt?

for me you are but 2 things:

1. a player that lacks the tactics an army may need and start crying as soon as it does not go like his simple minded brain wants it to go.

2. you are trolling

in either case you should not be taking seriously and im really feeling bad for people playing with you and the way you see things.

I think most of us went through the same feelings as you did Corennus. The proof will be in trying the actual dex out and you'll find we have the tools to be a very competitive army. Just a few points:

-don't sell Purifiers short. I ran mine on the weekend with a Brotherhood Champion and they wiped out in the first round of assault every unit they came across including BA Assault Troops, BA Honor Guard and Khorne Berzerkers. They almost single-handedly tabled the BA army I was up against.

-Interceptor squads were vital in grabbing objectives for me to prevent two losses. Having a shunt move enabled them to stick with my main force giving fire support knowing all the while they can still make that last turn objective grab/contest. They gave a certain flexibility that I've never had in the old dex. A game-changing flexibility.

-vs. mech we are more potent than the last dex. S7, rending assault/psycannons are potentially brutal against transports. Our regular troops aren't S6 anymore but we have krak grenades and S5 with Hammerhand can still pop Rhinos and such. And no squad should be without the cheap as beans S10 daemon hammer.

-to me, the anti-daemon stuff is not a useless points sink, it's an absolutely free ladle of gravy on top of under-costed models. Or basic GK has Force Weapons, storm bolters, two psychic powers and an, albeit mild, psychic defense. All for just 4 points more than a regular Marine. A bargain if you ask me.

Last edited by NemesisForce on Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total

I'm going to assume this is a knee jerk reaction to a first read without doing the math or playing with it at all, no? either that or you are trolling.

We only ever had s6 power weapons on terminators. nowadays, everyone gets s4/5 force weapons.

you can get HQ's for super cheap. If you choose to only play with models labeled "GK" and not even include a daemonhunter inquisitor, well, you're kinda making your own codex there, editing out the parts that you just don't want to look at, and you can't comment on the GK codex, just on whatever little version you cooked up.

Paladins Almost every attack on terminators involves a torrent of non ap1/2weapons at some point to kill a random few. Win 2 wound models and wound allocation shenanigans, paladins can survive almost twice as long against most shooting and CC, without loosing any models.

GK, on the whole, got better for cheaper. The basic strike squad member is cheaper, plus does the same against an average 4+ model and better against3+ and 2+. Oh, and thats recieving a charge. Charging, they do better against almost everything. And purifiers do so much better vs 5+ and 6+ and well everything point for point it's not even a contest.

new terminators are cheaper and troops.

Purifiers- purifiers are so much better than basic marines it's not funny. every model has 2 force weapon attacks BASE you say? oh ok so what about vs hordes .... a power that kills 1/2 the horde before CC starts? wow what about MC... oh right the force weapons.... surely they don't do vehicles? 5 points to make a model have 2 S10 CC attacks? surely they can't shoot .... their special weapons are CHEAPER?

Ven dreads - reroll results + fortitude = pointsy. is the ability to ignore 5/9 of all pens and 8/9 of all glances worth it? oh so you're in cover and now ignore 7/9 of all pens and 17/18 of all glances? Seems good to me.

Interceptor squad - last minute contest, or score with grand strategy. Shift behind tanks to hit them with s7 rending shots on rear armor. hide behind no LOS terrain within 18" of a shooty squad, and jump out and pwn it. Double Incinerate any army with terrible saves. oh the possibilities......

Purgitation - so put them behind LOS blocking terrain. behind a vehicle. heck even in cover. the fact remains 16 S7 rending shots that can reach most of the board when most things get cover anyway is REALLY good

Dreadknight - I may not be able to convince you of the teleporting being good (other dex's - daemons and nids, pay similar points to make a worse MC fly - and still don't get the 30" shunt) but at least look at all the other good stuff you get, ignoring the teleporting, and see it's a solid choice

All in all it looks like you took a quick look, found some things that didn't work perfectly the way you expected, and hate the codex. Look again, look at the forces you can create, what the units actually do, and i think you'll like it better.

Corennus wrote:I\'ve created 6 lists already so I am trying. This wasn't a kneejerk reaction to the codex I think. I really think for what the points are for units they are a little overcosted.

I also realise that was deliberate to have Grey Knights as an outnumbered force even more so than Space Marines.

Dreadknight at over 300 points with teleport homer and 3 weapons? Nice, but one good load of plasma and he's gone.....

One final thing to say about this codex, in the words of Despicable Me:

"IT'S SO FLUFFY!!!!"

Thinking that is wrong doesn't make it wrong, or terrible for that matter. You just don't like the new codex. I cannot blame you for that. Just don't try to win an arguement saying it is terrible because "it dind't go the way I'd like it to".

It's great that you are trying diffrent lists. Hope you change your mind. And if not, as I said before, GK are just not for you and should move on to another amry.

In all honesty I don't see the problem with the new dex. Out of all the 5th ed. codices it, along with vanilla marines seem to be the most balanced. Obviously there are some poorly worded rules in spots, but that happens all the time. Indeed everything in the codex (at the least the GK stuff) seems to be properly costed (except purifiers which are too points cheap).

I won't go into it any further as I think Souba, MJSwasey and NemesisForce summed it all up.

If you don't like the codex and the army you don't have to play, if you like the army but not the codex, you'll play them anyway, just like we did with 3rd Ed DHs

I think some of the points are fair....The codex HAS been watered down to avoid annoying Space Marine players.

It has also lost alot of that real DH/GK feel if you ask me, instead turning into a SM clone.

That being said it has been improved in many ways. No those don't include being able to run an MSU razor army IMO.

FNP on the Paladins, totally overcosted? Yes absolutely. Useful? Not really imo, for the price you can do so many other things that will be more advantageous.

GKT not WS5 - total crap if you ask me. Sorry but PsyAmmo on them isn't worth it (too exp) and only 1 Psy per 5.... They are pretty akin to a CSM Terminator in many ways. Except more expensive.That being said they are troops.....

The DK teleport homer was EXTREMELY dissapointing to me. Its a beast at base cost, but the sword is almost a must, and all its ranged weaponry is pretty Meh if you ask me. Anti horde? We have heaps.So you can almost double its cost so it has movement and killiness....

I liked GK because of what they used to be, and they have changed massively, but I think its still possible to feild them in the old sense, and they have a few good features. (Well more than a few)

Personally I don't and never will support the "ZOMG NEW CODEX SO GUD" veiwpoint, the best I will say is its extremely balanced against SM (ie not OP at ALL).

Also at a few other people in here:Killiness factor now compared to the old days is pretty comparable. We hit harder on the charge now, in extended combat normal PAGK now are worse. I wish people would stop trying to point out a massive increase in killiness in the new codex. Its not there, and is as valueless as people saying they dislike the codex just because.

Rhinos/Razors are a price premium that pretty much put us back on par with oldschool costs, but more mobile, BUT suddenly playing the meta instead of against it.

Yes the Justicar tax removal was a HUGE boon.

Souba wrote:for me you are but 2 things:

1. a player that lacks the tactics an army may need and start crying as soon as it does not go like his simple minded brain wants it to go.

2. you are trolling

in either case you should not be taking seriously and im really feeling bad for people playing with you and the way you see things.

Sorry did you just accuse someone of trolling. You seem to be doing a pretty good job yourself there, and at least he outlined his problems instead of just being rude. With capital letters and punctuation. Hating/disliking something is an opinion, it can't by definition be wrong because it is a feeling.I don't really agree with most of your points either.Particularly the point about Nid MC Wings cost, a major issue with that codex is they are totally overcosted, something which GWS doesn't mind because their golden boys - SM don't have any MC's, so its fine if GWS screws it up by making it too expensive for everyone else.

Zealadin wrote:Killiness factor now compared to the old days is pretty comparable. We hit harder on the charge now, in extended combat normal PAGK now are worse. I wish people would stop trying to point out a massive increase in killiness in the new codex. Its not there, and is as valueless as people saying they dislike the codex just because.

Actually, in extended combat the basic GK is point for point just about the same vs 3+ (slightly better with hammerhand, slightly worse without it, 12-14 percent either way). and anything 4+ or worse, the additional amount of storm bolters you get for the same price makes up for the difference, so even without a charge the GK are slightly killier than they used to be. and if you do get the charge, or happen to be using purifiers, they're alot killier, point for point

Sorry did you just accuse someone of trolling. You seem to be doing a pretty good job yourself there, and at least he outlined his problems instead of just being rude. With capital letters and punctuation. Hating/disliking something is an opinion, it can't by definition be wrong because it is a feeling.I don't really agree with most of your points either.Particularly the point about Nid MC Wings cost, a major issue with that codex is they are totally overcosted, something which GWS doesn't mind because their golden boys - SM don't have any MC's, so its fine if GWS screws it up by making it too expensive for everyone else.

as we both and maybe anyone else know. there is a difference between posting arguments based on background and ranting about stats that arent there or never have been there. (hello BS5 GK WS4 pallies etcpp.) making it look like he just flew 3 minutes over the codex and then wrote this thread with nothing but rants, yeah there is a high possibility of him making a big trolling move.

im very sorry if it does not please your style of reading when im not writing in captial letters and not correct punctuation. as english is not my native language and this beeing a forum and not some buisness order/customer support typing. i guess you might get to the point that forum posting will, especially by foreign posting people not be taking so big. since its a forum and you dont want to look after everything, taking more time than needed. i think however and have often be told so, that my written and talked english is well enough for native english speakers to understand. that this is beeing a part of your argumentation against shows how much arguments you really lack. seeing you dont go into detail on any point.

as for Tyranids having cheap wings. did you know that in the 4th edition tyranid codex the hive tyrant had to pay 40 points for wings making them only 10 points cheaper. not that much if you ask me. on top of that i dont remember hive tyrants shunting 30" over a board... especially if it will be doable as a scouting move when a errata/FAQ will set this clear.

you dont have to agree with my points i just stated option with the available units but if you really want it in deep, you can have it.

as of my post powerweapons vs WS5 and S6. MJSwasey did enough already no point in picking that up. seeing no big difference at all

my statement about GK heroes under 150 points is still the same. the brotherhood champion is a viable option. what points do you have against him? 1 wound? our old brother captain had one wound too but he got still taken as HQ for reduced costs. giving him a psycannon made him go instantly to 91 points, add him to a termie squad with 2 psycannons and have your little shooting squad/assault squad like you always had. granting him more gear will make him more expensive as the brotherhood champion.

now what about the brotherhood champion. we got a model wich grants his whole squad reroll failed hits on the charge making the WS4 of our new units not that bad anymore. what else does he got? oh yeah a 2+ and a 4++ wich our brother captain/grandmaster had to pay 25 points for before. on top of that his anointed blade that rerolls all his wound rolls on top of beeing a nemesis force sword wich grants a +1 on the invul. meaning a 3++ invul in close combat, wich he can even reroll if he does chose not to attack. i dont have to remember you how hard our 3rd ed stormshields sucked do i?if he attacks well the brother captain had 4 attacks on the charge. as of the brotherhood champion, with normal placement you mostly get in combat with 2-3 units making him get some fewer attacks, his rapier strike however may instantkill a IC/MC on initiative 10. why instantkill? because our brotherhood champion also got a force weapon, wich the brother captain also lacked.another thing the BC lack compared to the brotherhood champion, you are able to add the brotherhood champ to a squad of power armored grey knights and not nerf them unlike you couldnt with the BC/GM. one IC with terminator armor sucks big time if the enemy lost the combat and you cant sweeping advance them coz of that clunky armor.

as for paladins and the apo, brother Slind did one nice mathhammer for them in that one "help with understanding paladins" thread. better check it out.

for the purifier. lets just see what they got. force weapons, storm bolters, 2 attacks on the profile, 4/5 strength and a "funky flame power that the enemy gets armour saves against" even before blows are struck for 24 points a piece. those guys lack the WS5 and S6 of our old gk but make up for it with with one more attack on the charge and attacks that ignore armor wich as above already stated are the same, for GKSS vs GK. purifiers vs GK however fare better against MEQ units than the old GK did. that "funky flame power" is not meant for some 5 man tacticals or other few model sized units (sure you can use it, if you want to...). it is used against masses of enemys and with that power alone they are able to deal more wounds to one horde type squad than our old GK could ever deal. all that for 1 point less than a normal GK. i dont even have to mention those cheap additional 2 initiative for 2 points a model do i? making our old GK even more lacking.

to start about psycannons on this squad. on a 10 man squad you can get for 40 points 8 or 16 shots of this awesome weapon. thanks to combat squads you can even split them easily up and put those in some cover and have some awesome firepower.

16 shots of this thing will :hit 66.67% of the time, making 10.667 hitswill Wound 7.111 and land 1.778 rending woundsthe enemy will fail his save with a 3+ save 2.37 timesmaking 4.148 total, unsaved wounds. not even counting bolter fire or the like.

against a landraider it will :hit 10.667 timesthanks to rending it will:glance 0.593 timespenetrate 1.185 times. making them viable even against high armored targets

those numbers are not pulled out of nowhere so i wanna see your trolling reasons here.

as for the venerable dread, i think its said enough about them. everybody knows them, less play them.

the termies however. same as other codices termies? i dont see space marine termies striking on initiative 6. for free on top of strength 5 and the option for instant death.comparing them with the old termies is where it gets tricky. they cost 6 points less and thanks to halberds they are able to hit first most of the time, making a blow tradeoff against power weapon enemys less risky. i think both of them have their points, the old GK cause more wounds but take more in the new ones are able to deal safer blows. here it is a big matter of the enemy since both dont take each other much. what does make a huge difference however is that they got Frag & krag grenates and are as such the only terminator type unit that is able to assault through cover and maintain their initiative.

for the interceptors. they are more than a viable option. alone the possibilitys you can have with them is amazing. shut move close to the enemy behind blocked line of sight and next turn assaulting with a 18" range, on top of that stormbolter shooting. last minute contesting objectives or as scoring even claim them are all nice things that make em a viable option and if one thing works. they will become a no- brainer selection. scouting shunt move.. if that thing does work. ohh geez those units become the new cheese in the codex.

for purgation squads.. sure the enemy gets a 4+ cover save for LOS but how much does that matter for us in a game that is full of cover and of MEQ type enemys? a power armor save is always better than the 4+ cover save. except for the rending shot.

16 shots from a 4 psycannon purgator squad hits10.667 timeswounds 7.111 times, does 1,778 rending wounds on top of itwith the 3+ save and 4+ cover against rending he will make 4.541 savesmeaning 3.259 unsaved wounds

those shots are made without line of sight, without the risk of taking fire themself. show me one devastor/longfang troop dealing that damage without LOS, sure they lack the range but purgators are still able to move. sure you lose 50% of your shots this way but you are still able to shoot. same goes for devastors/longfangs in rhinos/razorbacks, they cant shot once the vehicle moved an inch.the problem with the purgators is, they have enough rivals for the heavy support slot, landraiders. riflemen dreads and dreadknights. making them less shine.

the last army book i waited for was beastmen. before that it was tyranids. therefore any arguments claiming the GK codex sucks are invalid and heresy. go play with the nid codex, then come back after you realize how awesome it is to not get castrated every time a new edition of your codex comes out.

I enjoyed that post souba.On note to purigators w/astral aim I have seen players place blast templates on vehicles so that squad members behind can get hit,I hope everyone is giving constructive criticism to the codex gods, afterall they did grant us grey knights with a new codex and not sisters of battle