Love and Respect: Parenting and Identity with Rivka Gewirtz Little and Bruce Little PDF Print E-mail
Written by Ernesto Aguilar
Sunday, 19 September 2004
Bruce and Rivka Gewirtz Little met in Texas and now reside in New York City. Some may remember Bruce as a founding member of the Federation of Black Community Partisans, the predecessor to many APOC groups. Rivka is a great organizer in her own right. This interview focuses on parenting and how being parents has changed the lives to two kickass revolutionaries.
Can you give people a little background about yourselves and your political development?
Bruce: Being an introvert, I had a lot of political influence from books, TV and music. As a teen when I was in junior high, I read a lot of books on the Vietnam War and the international insurgent movements during that time period. I remember looking at CNN during the days I skipped school and recognizing the kind of military build up in the South and Central Americas as being somewhat identical to the kind of U.S military buildup that took place in Vietnam. Being a working class black male at 14, I knew for sure that I was gonna be drafted. Later, in my twenties, I read Malcolm X's speeches and got involved in peace and justice coalitions in Houston.
Rivka: The '80s affected my political development. I grew up in a lesbian-parent household in upper Manhattan. Crack hit like a ton of bricks, addicting or helping to jail many of my lifelong friends. AIDS hit even harder, with many of my mother's friends dying. Gentrification eventually claimed the apartment I grew up in. Marshals evicted my mother, throwing 25 years of our shit on the street and dragging me out kicking and screaming. Yet I hated the left and all that it embodied. My mother (a Jewish woman) and her partner (a black woman) forced me to canvas for the Rainbow Party and I had been to more patchouli-smelling sing-ins than any kid could handle. I didn't see anything concrete being done. I tuned out as much as possible. Thank god for that blip of a conscious era in hip hop. I put my thinking cap back on and began to organize around issues in college and later as a journalist focusing on criminal justice issues.
Can you talk about how having your daughter has changed your lives, and what you want out of life?
Bruce: Having Navah has definitely added on more consideration to how we used to function as activists before we became parents. We still strive to work for the transformation of our communities, but we do have to work through child care issues and "switching" to make meeting s or get to certain protests.
Rivka: Having grown up in a severe state of urban emergency, affecting change has always been part of my MO. However, as N grows, my political work has taken a much clearer and more solid form. I am now desperate to work for underground education, cooperative child care and other services for children that function outside the oppressive laws of the system. If there is any sanity to be maintained for me on a Saturday night when my daughter becomes a teen, I know that I need to expose police corruption and exploitation of youth of color now. I know there needs to be an attitude that every kid in the 'hood could be my kid and therefore is my responsibility. My goals are very defined.
How has parenthood changed your politics, if at all?
Bruce: I was made more aware of issues like education and social services since we had been thrust into dealing with them first hand. All last year we were playing survival games with the State in trying to keep our daughter in affordable child care. In a situation like that, you almost have to be living on the street to qualify for these kinds of services.
And you have to be in a single parent situation as well. I was unemployed and R was working, but that wasn't enough. The State wanted me out of the picture altogether in order for N to be qualified to continue to get childcare services. We wanted to look at certain daycare programs that were started by grassroots activists back in the day because we knew that they had progressive learning curriculums for toddlers. But as funding for alternative grassroots based schools become scarce, they get swallowed by the State and hence the classist guidelines.
Rivka: Again, instead of looking at all the issues all the time, I have really begun to focus on what's happening to inner city kids. Being involved with children all the time thrusts it in our face. Right now the scariest part seems to be the prison state we have created for urban youth in public schools, which later transfers into the prison industrial complex. But then it's also terrifying that mothers on welfare are forced to deposit their newborns into the hands of strangers so that they can meet welfare guidelines. There are so many issues it seems overwhelming -- so the thought of having to organize around something like globalization (though I know its crucial) seems to dilute my efforts on any front. Maybe in 18 years, I'll start to branch out again.
Is anti-authoritarian parenting possible or practical?
Bruce: I believe it can be, but it really comes down to the parent. What are they willing to live with or live without as they raise a kid up under capitalism? There are networks of alternative health care providers although small and scarce that anti-authoritarians can turn to if they do not want to go to take their child to a "real" doctor. There are alternatives to public schools and you can even squat or choose a primitivist lifestyle in a remote setting. What I'm saying is that radical parents throughout the years have chosen to live lives where they raise children "unplugged" from the dominant culture and it can work. I just see it as a "Your Mileage May Vary" kind of thing. There shouldn't be rules on how to build a family under an oppressed state. I follow my instincts and common sense along with Rivka's consul as a partner. We may choose a medical doctor for Navah based on the individual and how they practice medicine. Do they blindly prescribe the medicines of the industry when there are alternative medicines to consider? Are they open minded to holistic alternatives? Do we as parents decide if we want to give our child those medicines when we know based on our own research that that medicine may not be good for Navah? I think being a conscious and thoughtful parent leads to practical decisions.
Rivka: It's totally possible, though hard. To me its all about collaboration and cooperation. If you want to keep your kid out of the system by way of doctor, school, etc, it takes a group of people who are willing to chip and in cooperatively provide services. For example, the only way for parents without cash to get daycare without going through the state is to come together with a group of other parents to form a daycare collective. I think the hard part is making the connections with other people who have committed themselves to raising their children in that environment. Once you make the connections, I believe it to be possible.
How do you handle discipline?
Rivka: I have spent a lot of time thinking about this very issue. Is it possible to raise a kid that questions and bucks authority while instilling "discipline" in the home? In other words, how do you tell a kid to challenge the state and existing laws and then tell them to shut up and listen to your rules? On the other hand, four-year-olds don't necessarily have the capability to know that playing with the stove could kill them-hence the clear need for rules: "Hey kid, stay away from the stove, or else!" Ultimately, as a mother, my job is to extend the womb for as long as possible until my child doesn't need the support anymore. The womb provides boundaries that make a fetus feel safe. On the outside world, toddlers seek instruction to feel safe in a big scary park, for instance. The trick is to provide rules for safety, while teaching kids to question rules that seem bogus -- including their parents. Oddly, the safety and security that comes from a disciplined home can empower kids to become adults who are strong enough to fight the system. Of course, I'm talking a lot of shit right now. What am I gonna say if Navah heads out the house in a hoochie skirt to the club at 16 and "challenges my authority" on going … Hmmm …. ass whoopin's all around!
Bruce: Although I kid around the house about passin' out ass whoopin's and I also make threats if I'm caught in bad mood, I have realized how my upbringing instilled that "fear of getting in trouble" as a kid and how we track that same fear into adulthood in the work place or at a protest dealing with cops. I don't want Navah to fear other people, just respect other people who respect her. So I take my cue from Rivka's ideas on discipline, which means talking things out with her, not bargaining. But also pointing out the consequences of your actions: if you don't clean up and take care of your shit, it's not gonna be any good to you in pieces if someone steps on it or it gets lost, or if I get tired of picking it up all the time and it "disappears."
Can you talk a little about how to impart culture to your daughter, particularly when the push for assimilation is so intense for youth of color, especially young girls.
Bruce: We started getting white Barbie dolls for gifts from some relatives when Navah was like, one. Granted we did not lay ground rules to our peoples not to give us Barbies of any color, but regardless, we always knew that we had our work cut out for us to counter indoctrination of white supremacy and negative body image via Barbie's marketing.
Barbie's blonde looks and body image are targeted to girls Navah's age and it can have that effect of self hating of a child of color hating their brown skin and dark unruly hair. I think of the old Whoopi piece she used to do portraying a young black girl with a yellow towel on her head pretending that it was blonde hair. We counter this in a couple of ways like telling her how she and other kids that look like her are beautiful too. As she gets older it will be easier to explain that there is an industry out there making mad dollars off of people of color who have been tricked to hate themselves and in turn will want to look like someone they are not, or kill themselves trying. I would hope that she will make her own conclusion that she should love her natural self.
Rivka: I think the way to impart culture is to provide it without ramming it down your child's throat. In other words, surround the house with cultural books, and avoid the typical children's crap, have parties in which people are naturally wearing cultural dress, instill values of your culture in simple ways like focusing on community and story telling. However, I don't think it's helpful to start some sort of counter indoctrination. I was raised with a little of that and had a severe rebellion. I am hoping that if the parents love and are proud of their cultural heritage and fill the home with ceremony and other folks living the same way, the child will incorporate that in their way of being.
One thing many multicultural adults say is that they struggle with confusion about who they are and being accepted. How are you encouraging your daughter to honor her many cultures and feel confidence in that?
Rivka: I have a very unpopular take on this issue. I am all about Navah honoring her many cultures, i.e. Black, Jewish, etc. But at the end of the day, when the police stop her ass driving a car, she will be a Black woman and they will treat her as such. While that officer is beating her ass for whatever sick reason he finds, he won't be asking her if she is a quarter French -- know what I mean? My feeling is you provide all the beauty of culture in the house in a positive way, but you let your kid know the ropes on the outside world -- bottom line. If there is some confusion or refusal to accept at some point -- well hey that's normal. As someone who comes from a multicultural home, I have gone through my periods of self-doubt and even hatred, but it all shook out in the end.
What advice can you offer other parents to keep their child's curiosity and spirit going in a school system in which conformity is most pressing?
Rivka: Provide examples of alternative ways of being on their free time. Go to plays, free art exhibits and concerts, libraries, etc. I think it takes providing alternative perspectives to keep kids away from that conformist thinking. No kid will remain a conformist when they know there are cool alternatives. And if they do, that will all change in time.
Bruce: Deprogramming at home is the key. First you need to know the school your child is attending. Who are the teachers, what are they teaching, etc. Then ask your kid what they are being taught. It will be the usual shit, like the first Thanksgiving where the first colonizers partied with the indigenous Americans. Here is the opportunity to arm them with tools like A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. It provides an alternative to conforming to the reactionary historical perspective of the school system.
But you also have to be active in countering the stuff being taught in schools by speaking out when you attend school board meetings, or yes, even PTA meetings.
Most importantly encourage the child to satisfy their curiosity by challenging the school authorities on the stuff they are teaching.
How can political meetings and spaces improve child-friendliness?
What behaviors -- conscious or unconscious -- need to be more actively checked when it comes to welcoming parents?
Bruce: Political meetings and workspaces can improve with the increased involvement of politically conscious parents. Building the APOC movement means reaching out across class and age lines. If there are more parents involved in radical community building, I believe that will improve child-friendliness at meetings. Parents could organize themselves to switch off in the child caring area from meeting to meeting so it just won't be any particular person's "job" to watch the children.
So far I have been to meetings that have offered childcare, but I have never really used that resource because Rivka and I usually plan ahead of time when it comes to managing our time to attend meetings. As for what kind of behaviors that needs to be checked, I can only say that hopefully you can work with people who are patient and understanding with children who cannot or will not sit through a four hour meeting patiently.
What do you think about taking their kids to demonstrations?
Rivka: Take them, take them, take them. We had a scary experience at one of the anti-war demos here in New York where police on horses were trampling folks without regard to age or physical stability (including seriously old folks). Navah and her cousin (also a toddler) were pinned against a wall on our shoulders, just watching the horses charging people and we couldn't move and could barely breathe. It was terrifying. However, both girls remember the experience with love and they remember all the chants. They still joke "1, 2, 3, 4, we don't want your stinkin' war. That's part of "imparting" culture and politics. It would be good for parents to work in cooperation so that when scary things happen, there are parents who can take over and get the kids out of the crowd or help form shields around the kids so they don't get injured.
Bruce: Yes, the parents definitely need to be organized, networked to come to a demo and form contingency plans for when the police begin to riot and break up a demo.
There is also the school of thought that you should be more selective about what kind of demos you can take your children to. But in light of the police assaults in some of the most peaceful actions that took place in Florida around the FTAA, I don't really know how selective you can be. The police are defiantly following a decree to break up actions as quickly as possible and as they see fit. Still some common sense and a heightened sense of when things go wrong could be a parents' best tool.
How prepared are you for her teenage years?
Rivka: Not. It's all about instinct. My big fear there is that she will come to think of MTV's pimp and whore culture as her own urban culture. I really want to help her get around that bullshit that so victimizes women and criminalizes youth of color for the fun of white kids.
If Navah were to read this interview in 20 years, what would you tell her?
Rivka: We have the utmost love and respect for you and all that you embody.