I think it shouldn't matter. Personally I had to switch associations because I moved and have to compete against old team mates. But there are no ill feelings on either side. I think that it all depends on the situation. If you leave bc you don't fit in so to speak then it's kind of a gray area. If you move and have no choice then it's perfectly ok. Osiander has said that you should stick with who you start with. But if you move and aren't able to train with them at all it's acceptable.

I moved because the gym I was at no longer was competitive enough for me. The focus became the "new students" and the "business." For about 8 months to a year and a half I left every night frustrated and angry because I had no competition. No one to push me. My current gym I have several great matches a night and if there is no one good enough to push me my instructor is who is the best martial arts instructor I have ever had Daniel Beleza arranges my matches by somehow giving me a handicap.

For you "loyalists". Should I have quit bjj altogether or should I have continued on leaving every night angry and frustrated?

Can depend on the values of your school or culture. In a highly individualistic school/culture it may be acceptable, even supported, whereas in a very collectivistic school/culture it may be highly frowned upon.

Some folks have a problem with it and will take it personally, some won't.

But you can't allow the opinions of others to determine what's best for you, so disregard all of that.

As I understand it, the "tribal" mindset of some BJJ schools is a holdover from Brazilian culture generally as well as a prior generation of training where individual academies would literally develop "secret" moves to better deal with opposing academies in competition. A successful competitor switching allegiances in those days could be devastating to team strategy and morale. They were a "traitor" or "creonte."

In fact, Google the term "creonte." You'll find all sorts of commentary on switching schools.

In any event, in the age of YouTube and the plethora of online and print instructionals, the "creonte" concept makes very little sense, especially when you're dealing with the "run of the mill" students at a gym rather than its very best competitors.

If BJJ is your hobby, then you should endeavor to enjoy it as much as possible. If that means moving to an academy that better suits you for whatever reason (proximity, atmosphere, like-minded students, etc.), then you should absolutely do it.

Depends how you go. forced to go like moved? Or just want to train elsewhere ? Fine do your thing. Sneaking behind your teams back or leaving and running your mouth talk shit about your old gym, you're a Creonte and should be treated like one

Jessy30 - I moved because the gym I was at no longer was competitive enough for me. The focus became the "new students" and the "business." For about 8 months to a year and a half I left every night frustrated and angry because I had no competition. No one to push me. My current gym I have several great matches a night and if there is no one good enough to push me my instructor is who is the best martial arts instructor I have ever had Daniel Beleza arranges my matches by somehow giving me a handicap.

For you "loyalists". Should I have quit bjj altogether or should I have continued on leaving every night angry and frustrated?

You should have helped develop your fellow students to a point where they could push you. Make them better so they could make you better.

cross3dout - Depends how you go. forced to go like moved? Or just want to train elsewhere ? Fine do your thing. Sneaking behind your teams back or leaving and running your mouth talk shit about your old gym, you're a Creonte and should be treated like one

"Running your mouth" and "sneaking around" is obviously inappropriate, but none of that is required to simply desire to train elsewhere.

There's no reason somebody should be locked forever into training at the first place they happened to stumble into as a brand new white belt. If you desire to take your training elsewhere for almost any reason--a bad experience, personal preference, proximity, "prestige," friendships with others, etc.--then so be it. Why should anyone tell you that you can't? It's a hobby--you're not joining the priesthood.

You of course should make the change in a responsible way. Don't bad mouth, lie to, or lie about folks at your prior school. Don't "give pointers" to the guys at your new school on how to beat the guys from your old academy. Don't try to take people with you when you go. Etc.

But that all just comes with the territory of being a good and respectful person, not some unwritten BJJ code. I agree you CAN be a jerk when you change schools for personal reasons, but it's certainly not a guarantee.

Jessy30 - I moved because the gym I was at no longer was competitive enough for me. The focus became the "new students" and the "business." For about 8 months to a year and a half I left every night frustrated and angry because I had no competition. No one to push me. My current gym I have several great matches a night and if there is no one good enough to push me my instructor is who is the best martial arts instructor I have ever had Daniel Beleza arranges my matches by somehow giving me a handicap.

For you "loyalists". Should I have quit bjj altogether or should I have continued on leaving every night angry and frustrated?

You should have helped develop your fellow students to a point where they could push you. Make them better so they could make you better.

M'eh, maybe.

Too many more details are needed to get to where you headed on this IMO.

Sure, you could argue that if he loved and trusted the instructor and the school was in some sort of state of transition where the good guys were taking breaks or had moved or some such thing, then maybe the better play would've been to stick around and work on it. Help build the school back up and so on.

But . . . if he's right about the quality of instruction and the quality of the students declining, and he's right that this was a reflection of a change in ownership philosophy, then why on earth should he have undertaken the task of working against the instructor/owner so as to "elevate" the game of students who in all likelihood don't desire the kind of "help" that mostly feels like an ass kicking?

I remember reading an interview with Rich Franklin where he said basically the same thing. He felt he had maxed out at whatever local academy he started at, so he sought out Gurgel and other higher level folks to train with. That switch is what ultimately brought him to a UFC championship.

That's not the "wrong" thing to do IMO, provided you handle it appropriately and with respect for all involved.

<blockquote>MTH - Some folks have a problem with it and will take it personally, some won't. <br><br>But you can't allow the opinions of others to determine what's best for you, so disregard all of that. <br><br>As I understand it, the "tribal" mindset of some BJJ schools is a holdover from Brazilian culture generally as well as a prior generation of training where individual academies would literally develop "secret" moves to better deal with opposing academies in competition. A successful competitor switching allegiances in those days could be devastating to team strategy and morale. They were a "traitor" or "creonte."<br><br>In fact, Google the term "creonte." You'll find all sorts of commentary on switching schools. <br><br>In any event, in the age of YouTube and the plethora of online and print instructionals, the "creonte" concept makes very little sense, especially when you're dealing with the "run of the mill" students at a gym rather than its very best competitors. <br><br>If BJJ is your hobby, then you should endeavor to enjoy it as much as possible. If that means moving to an academy that better suits you for whatever reason (proximity, atmosphere, like-minded students, etc.), then you should absolutely do it. <br><br>Nobody who matters is going to care. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post 3.0" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/></blockquote><br />

This. People who buy into the creonte bullshit are the same people who make fun of the very similar culture found in TMAs, so take what their viewpoints w a grain of salt. Nevermind the fact that like 98% of all the top competitors have switched schools/associations/teams multiple times, another fact they will conveniently forget. Flat out, if you have to leave then don't be a prick. Leave w class and act like a adult, if others want to act like children then F them. Besides, its better off to have people who WANT to be there then to keep people there who no longer want to be there.

i found it odd that the last few people who left the gym did it without letting anybody know that they were leaving

i personally don't mind. everybody needs to find a school that fits best for them and their goals - that's not disputable and it's stupid when instructors pull loyalty into the discussion. loyalty is only applicable in certain cases, and for the most part, it's irrelevant unless you have a personal reason to be loyal to a specific instructor.

but i do think it's fucking weird when people can't gather the courage to say good bye after several years training together. doesn't matter what the reason is - have the decency to let people know and shake their hands on the way out.

It isn't leaving gyms that's the problem. It's acting like a douche about it that's the problem. No business owner wants drama, if you make a bunch of drama and such don't expect to be received well. If you are professional and act with common courtesy it's no problem.

"You should have helped develop your fellow students to a point where they could push you. Make them better so they could make you better."

For the purposes of discussion. I was not the owner. I paid monthly dues. Why is it my responsibility to have a gym where I could become the best I could be? I tried for a very long time to develope such a environment for myself. I taught many classes, I helped out cleaning and recruiting and talking the school up. I taught boxing and kickboxing and mma classes. I tried to gather a "competition" group. To all of the above my efforts were met with the usual placid hobbyist mentality, annoyance, outright hostility and jealousy. I found the competitive drive at the new school that I had tried to cultivate. Now, perhaps this says something about my leadership, perhaps not. This is irreverent because it is not my school and I did not control anything beyond myself. My question is, where did I owe loyalty? Why? To whom? I think the why is the most important question.

To put it in perspective, my coach now teaches me something every day. I leave laughing and happy from class. If I don't make it in I get a call or text making sure I am ok. I am supported in all competitive efforts (my previous schools owners/coaches had not made it to even one of my competitions) and I can rely on my coach to run the school with not only me but all students in mind. There is no favoritism and everything runs in one direction.

If I am paying to be somewhere it is not my responsibility to teach everyone else. I am nice, respect full, and helpful to everyone at my gym. I am always willing to answer questions or help out teaching. However, if that was "expected" of me I would be pissed and I would leave. I am their for my personal development first. If you are paying the ball is in your court. It is not my responsibility to stall my growth to teach other people. That is what the instructor is there for. To suggest anything else is just stupid.

most blue belts switch gyms because maybe they can learn more faster somewhere else...because white to blue belt took a long time. or going from blue to purple takes even longer. but then again, there is that loyd irvin rape thing.

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