Mitch, I'm a bit surprised the position you're taking considering we both found this forum due to Varasano's website. Wouldn't you think it would be better for new members to use bakers yeast in their quest for NY style, and try sourdough when they are just in the mood to try something different?

So now it's OK so long as you try baker's yeast first?

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

I am very much against being excessively "black and white". The advocacy about newbies being well guided to what constitutes a traditional and excellent NY Style Pizza is fine.

But, using that desire to provide that kind of guidance to try to kick the SD discussion to Other (banished to breadsticks) is really using the "Newbie Guidance" issue as a means to an end. And that end feels like it is way too dogmatic. I think we need room in the NY forum for innovation and experimentation and I do not like that to be stifled.

It's not just majority rules, but there certainly doesn't need to be an official authority. If a style has an origin, and a tradition follows that origin and is perpetuated by a common usage, isn't that good enough? Just because there are hybrids or outliers wont change what seems obvious to me, at least, that NY style is an authentic, tradition-defined category of pizza. People who were raised on that tradition and care about it will want, rightly so, to defend it.

Do we need an authority? If so, look to those who come from and are part of that tradition. Will someone from that tradition step forward and claim SD to be a part of that tradition?

It's just a question. I don't know the answer but it does come to mind that IDY & ADY are fairly new in the span of baking. Did the first italians that made pizza in NY even have access to IDY or ADY? It occured to me that they must have used brewers yeast or a natural culture. If it happened before IDY/ADY doesent that mean all NY pizza used a different leavening agent at the inception of NY-style pizza than is being done today? Not arguing - just curious!Cheers,Don

Don,

ADY came into being at around World War II. It was actually developed for home bakers. IDY came into being in the 1970s. Before ADY and IDY, fresh yeast was most likely used commercially for the NY style.

[quote author=JD link=topic=33547.msg333169#msg333169 date=1408211576Sourdough is not beneficial in oven temperatures under 600* unless you dramatically increase bake time. I certainly don't know the true statistics, but I'd guess a high majority of NY pizza restaurants are using deck ovens under 600*[/quote]

If one likes what SD does for a dough, like I do, the bake temperature has nothing to do with it. I do NP's at 850F, breads at 475F, sicilian and and al taglio at 450ish. All these are quite different when done with SD. "Beneficial", of course, is in the eye (tastes) of the beholder.

Also, most people here know that good pizza comes in many shapes and forms. That's not the issue, is it? Tradition and style, the desire to recreate it and share it and recognize its various forms is why we have separate pizza categories here, and also common sections to appreciate the beauty of a well-made pizza, even if it has mushrooms on it. Which it shouldn't.

I am very much against being excessively "black and white". The advocacy about newbies being well guided to what constitutes a traditional and excellent NY Style Pizza is fine.

But, using that desire to provide that kind of guidance to try to kick the SD discussion to Other (banished to breadsticks) is really using the "Newbie Guidance" issue as a means to an end. And that end feels like it is way too dogmatic. I think we need room in the NY forum for innovation and experimentation and I do not like that to be stifled.

I've admitted previously that Scott has far more passion about authenticity than I do. But if I can save some poor sap months of misery trying to use Sourdough for NY pizza they grew up eating, I'm all for that. I probably read Varasanos website top to bottom a few dozen times, and I couldn't understand why my pizza was not coming out correctly. In the end all I had to do was use bakers yeast.

Sourdough in a home oven will not get you NY pizza and most deck ovens run at, or near home oven temps.

How about a sticky "Introduction to the history of NY Style Pizza", approved by the moderators & a blue ribbon panel of PM members (external members too - PQM, others?), that could address the historic and evolutionary aspects of New York style pizza? A short primer, with links to recipes and pictures would be a great starting point for newbies (like me) and save time and potential confusion.Cheers,Don

: You can call the pizza you are trying to describe as "Traditional NY Style" and let everyone else call what they are doing in this forum "NY Style." In other words, you can be the one that is wiling to change for the greater good and still make the point you are trying to make.

Otherwise,you need to toss out all the threads here that don`t make true old school NY pizza.

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scott123

Very well said, thank you. My concern is that issues get so buried in "official definitions" and we get too black and white, that efforts to improve things are impeded. Latin is a dead language. Great NY Style Pizza does not have to be locked in based on something that was prevalent a long time ago, but like Latin, we can study the classics but not change anything. It could be that, but it does not have to be.

What? So no one should learn Latin any more?! Or can someone come along and say "Well, Latin isn't really all that innovative, so let's add some Mandarin to it and spice it up a little bit?" Change is good, right?

This has absolutely nothing to do with innovation. People can study any gosh darn language that their heart desires. They can combine Esperanto and Swahili into an entirely new language and I'll be cheering them on all the way. Just don't call the new language Esperanto. Or Latin. All I'm asking for is for Latin to still be Latin, regardless of how useful you consider it to be. Personally, I treasure the Latin that I've learned, but I guess I'm just an old fart clinging to dead languages- and dead pizza.

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The ancient ways should be honored because they produced good results. We should allow room for innovation and lots of it. We would not be extreme and destructive by banishing SD starter added to NY Style to the home of breadsticks. How about leaving NY Style alone and calling the style you like "The Original NY Style that was ubiquitous during a period of time (the good old days) but that is not really the same thing as the Original Rays and is not the crap served today by most"? Or, less sarcastically and more constructively: You can call the pizza you are trying to describe as "Traditional NY Style" and let everyone else call what they are doing in this forum "NY Style." In other words, you can be the one that is wiling to change for the greater good and still make the point you are trying to make.

I spend a lot of time attempting to delineate between great vintage NY style pizza and crappy modern NY style pizza, so, while I'm happy that we're both on the same page in that aspect, that particular chronological delineation has no connection to this discussion, to sourdough. Old NY pizza never had sourdough, and new NY pizza doesn't have it either.

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scott123

It's not just majority rules, but there certainly doesn't need to be an official authority. If a style has an origin, and a tradition follows that origin and is perpetuated by a common usage, isn't that good enough? Just because there are hybrids or outliers wont change what seems obvious to me, at least, that NY style is an authentic, tradition-defined category of pizza. People who were raised on that tradition and care about it will want, rightly so, to defend it.

I'm sorry, but he's pulling a Varasano here by making the implication that Joe's is naturally leavened. I spent just as much time at Joe's as he did, right about the same time period. I would bet every cent that I've made and every cent that I will make on Joe's pizza being made with baker's yeast. You've tasted it yourself. Do you really think there's sourdough in Joe's pizza?

As far as tasting Joe's pizzas the two times I did, I would say no I did not taste any sourdough in Joe's crusts

The pizza I made yesterday had no sourdough taste. It just had a better flavor in the crust

I have tried many formulations for NY style pizzas. I found I like oil and sugar for a NY style pizza. Walter is a good example though of not liking oil in a NY style pizza not too long ago. Walter did not like any oil in his NY style doughs either for a long while. After he experimented he found he did like oil in a NY style doughs. Who's to say whether oil is right or wrong in a NY style dough. All of our tastes are different.

I don't know the answer to this, but how did AVPN eventually come up with their standards for Neapolitan pizza? If I had to guess, they had a round table discussion with experienced people who eventually agreed to what is most commonly acceptable practice in making Neapolitan pizza. AVPN started in the 80's, so before then there was no such thing as authentic Neapolitan pizza? Discussions like this is the very reason AVPN was founded in the first place.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I'm going to trust an obsessive member who has done years of research on this topic.

I don't know the answer to this, but how did AVPN eventually come up with their standards for Neapolitan pizza? If I had to guess, they had a round table discussion with experienced people who eventually agreed to what is most commonly acceptable practice in making Neapolitan pizza. AVPN started in the 80's, so before then there was no such thing as authentic Neapolitan pizza? Discussions like this is the very reason AVPN was founded in the first place.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I'm going to trust an obsessive member who has done years of research on this topic.

Do you really believe that if someone was making great NY pizza using SD rather than baker's yeast anyone would care other than Scott and maybe a couple other people?

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

I just popped out to Google and looked at the first 10 returns. One is a NY Times Video with the pizza maker from Roberta's: He uses bakers yeast but adds "00" flour to the recipe and does not mention sodium bromate in flour. Then there is another NY Pizza video being made in a big hobart with a dozen eggs. It would be great as has been pointed out if all New Yorkers could agree on what is the ingredient definition of NY pizza. Perhaps, a bill should be drawn up by NY legislators It would be very helpful to have a default definition, even if it's only to clarify the matter on the forum.Cheers,Don