UMECUnited Mining Exploration Commission: A group of friends playing JumpGate-- "a MMORPG that launched smoothly, breaks from fantasy character setting, emphasizes PvP, and is the first persistent world space simulator that nobody talks about." ~Scorch

I have one problem, and one problem only with the civ ripping. The excuse "I do it because it's my RP". For the nearly 2 years I've played this game, it's usually RP to suit civ ripping, not civ ripping to suit RP.

Maybe the person playing the "Psycopath" don't think their RP is lame. Many think it is a viable and fun RP. Alot of the people who "kill people because you are bored" aren't doing it because they are bored, they are doing it because they see this game as a combat game ( which BTW it WAS advertised as, Realtime spaceflight and combat per the box) For instance the "pirates" of the game, think of their RP as adding a bit of danger to the game. They can't see the fun in constantly hauling cargo from point A to B to C etc etc. So they look upon thair attacks as adding spice to the game, whereas many of the cargo haulers think the pirate attacks "ruin" their fun in the game.

I do agree that the folks who just log on to go shoot at anybody make it frustrating for others, but there aren't as many of those as you may think. Many of them think they are playing the game as intended. They believe that their "RP" just adds to the game.

I see the frustration of being podded or just plain shot down in regulated space... but if it's in Unreg.. it is completly "legal" wether they do it for RP, for fun or out of boredom, Unreg is just that, unregulated space, not policed. If the GMs were to start enforcing alot of "penalties" for kills in unreg, I can see the player base disentigrating in a heartbeat. Lets not try to go too "carebear" here. I myself play for combat, maybe with a bit of exploring on the side.... i only run cargo or mine or arty hunt when I need funds.. I just don't find it much fun at all, but I see it as work needed to be done. to allow for my fun.

Like I said, many don't think they are "being lame" they believe truly that hey are adding to the game.

I do believe we've found a use for my first post. Intriguing is it not? Let's examine OrionStorm's "brilliant" riposte in the light of it, shall we? I'll focus on the core of his assumption: that being the one i coloured. You see, his claim that "there aren't as many" griefers as there are "many" folk "playing the game as intended" and this "RP adds to the game", is just plain nonsensical when crossreferenced to DLinkOZ's statement.

There are more people RPing to suit civripping than the other way around. that's FACT. See, OrionStorm is playing on the good graces of most normal folk in life -- That being we normally take someone else's assumption at face value. That entire post of his hinges on the fact we BUY his assumption.

Take another look at that post and disregard that word i underlined. reverse that statistic of his and the post takes on a rather chilling tone, does it not? It no longer gives the impression of bold roleplayers who love combat, but a rather dodgy bunch of 'rules lawyers' exploiting the system and calling it "the way it was intended" (sounds alot like "matter farmer" creed, eh?)

If you want my personal opinion on this combat "RP", i'd have to say that the entire game is ridden with exploits and i guess the only way to stay sane is to accept these lunatics (who "think it's the way the game was intended") at face value, just like one would a rather irritating cosmetic bug when attempting ot enjoy a rather promising game.

I never had a problem with logging off if things got to hot. I never had a problem with doing some deep space exploration to avoid morons. I never once had a problem following any number of other gameplay options once a certain RP was restricted to me...See, flying somewhere dangerous IS an RP choice.

Danger and stress enrich my RP character's background, attitude, profession and personal contacts though the gameplay choices i take...RP doesn't dictate what i can do, RP dictates to me what i CAN'T (the only thing that dictates what i can do is the software coding of the game)

EDIT: Note that my personal opinion is different than the public stance i take, and i consider the former to be in the minority. (ie. what i wish and what IS are two separate things)

CONCLUSION
Ever heard of the saying, "The end justifies the means"? I don't believe that at all.

Rollio was a pirate because he wanted to be, not because in RL he thrives on the pain of others. Simple as that. Take this as a game and you'll see things differently. See this as personal and you'll see things through red.

I've got to look up the 'illogic' tactic this falls under...but first: Notice how this is a MMOG? In a game like this you're interacting with other customers of a game IRL, and in real life not even the criminals see themselves as guilty (proven fact)

what Grim is trying to sleaze is that playing a role because of a whim has no need of conscience; no need at all to consider the consequences of one's actions on someone IRL? Sounds to me like a classic 'Fallacy of Distraction' (false dilemma)...not sure though. i really don't have that much experience with the internet and "debate"/"flamewars" yet. no shit.

Apparently, they've also declared war on ALL quantars. (something about <insert martyr excuse>)

no link to it. i don't read such peices of drivel myself. so sue me.

MG general forum POLLIN REPLY TO
oh come on. who doesn't think it's yet another tired excuse for griefing? What makes people think doing something illegal in public makes it okay? Jeezuz. they do it anyways regardless, as though this is the first time they randomly civrip to pad their stats. sheeeesh.

I don't buy the "it'll encourage cooperation" line of thinking especially when 95% of MMOG customers refuse to cooperate with nonconsentual RP. (ie. when someone does something you don't like you tell them to "%@#% off")

the "grab a gun and fight back!"/ "it adds spice to an otherwise pointless boring existence" crowd forget 95% of MMOG customers don't like being forced into the position of being helpless victims of violence while ATTEMPTING to play a game in the style they've chosen (otherwise, why would they be playing?)

*shrug* Personally, I find all these whiny martyr hissyfits to be highly amusing. We all know they're a bunch of opportunistic scrappers who should have been banned looooooooong ago. Problem is that noone really wants to make themselves a target for ingame aggression for these bullies by calling them out for what they are.

If you think kids are the only ones capable of bullying then i'm wasting my time talking here; noone likes to play a game where you have the dilemma of either being a sheep or being a wolf. (to 95% of MMOG customers, playing as either role sucks)

you know what's the really funny bit? hardcore pvpers always complain about how boring missions are, yet don't care a WIT for it to be improved upon because otherwise they wouldn't be able to ridicule a nonpvper's playstyle choice

As a clarification, only TDP have declared war on the quants - who are definitely giving as good as they get. IIRC TDP had a barney with QS, and decided to take it out on the entire faction. OOC relations are a little tense at the moment, but they may start coordinating it into some directed RP. TBH take a fairly pro-Quant stance these days, and HoD has just declared war on QS. The GBS Order doesn't appear to have any shared politics, but they do fight to keep anyone out of GBS, as they are claiming it as part of some independent space colony.

Thanks for the clarification...I was kinda hoping Raiderr would provide such and diffuse the situation, but he seemed to be enjoying ranting like an egomaniac (again) instead.

Personally, i'm no carebear and i'm sure he knows it too. Though i'm sure he wonders at times why i rail against the pvp RP...guess he must just not understand that he's merely powergaming instead of roleplaying. He probably thinks i'm a hypocritical git without a single clue how JG "really is"

Ah well, the very mechanics of the game coded by NetDevil cannot help BUT channel pvp RP into this sort of powergaming rut. :(

I usually give everyone the benefit of the doubt but I find Raiderr somewhat unhinged, and his policies self defeating - at least from what I read on the forums. Ive not had the *ahem* privlege to be accosted by TDP often enough to guage how much of the dark ones postion on the boards is bluster and grandstanding to maintain a consistent front, and how much TDP is willing to actually compromise from those ideals to make the game more fun.

Nominally he seems to be of the camp that says that carting cargo is not fun, his existance, and his squad, is merely there to facilitate the enjoyment of Jumpgate by others. Look how bored you were transporting 500 iridium, and see how much more fun it is to pay an (on US oft outrageous) PoD demand or return home in a pod. (On EU at least the PoDs are kept reasonable by policy).

The problem is, if I could belive that for an instant, Raiderr and TDP then compromise this position by a number of policies and actions that betray an apparent intent to play up the role of pirates while gathering as many kills on easy targets as possible.

TDP has - and I have no direct expreience of this but it is substantiated by Raiderrs squad ROE as posted on various forums - a policy of ripping pilots that have in the past not paid pods, as well as ripping pilots that do not respond within some small timeframe, or put up a bit of a fight.

Now excuse me, but resisting piracy is 90% the fun of piracy, and draconian policies like this - if actually implemented - do NOT for a fun enviroment make.

Yeah. i was thinking it IS a shame that threats like Raiderr's be condoned -- because it does have an Epic ring to it -- But, then again, i remind myself that threats of massive station stripping, blockades of stations, etc etc simply turn out to be hellishly boring, destructive to everyone's morale (including the pvpers' because they thought everyone else would love the "excitement") and just encourages ND's ignorance.

I mean, it's like renting a cheap porno...the only one who's being sincerely screwed is the one who buys the load of crap. JumpGate may have to operate on the cheap, but it's not as cheap as some of the "players who think they can play the total assholes they can't in real life" (think that was Uriel who first said that on PJG forums long ago)

seriously, how credible is a faction wide threat? OV got threatened with a -100pr for shooting just two "TRI pilots" under shady circumstances.

Think about it. Raiderr was probably totally jealous OV got the martyr spotlight. Course, i'll bet MG know that Raiderr's bunch would jump at the chance to justify civripping after a -100pr penalty -- they'd bitch on the forums about how unfair it is and at the same time run rampant griefing...damn straight MG is only too aware of that fact.

I really don't think civripping habits by stat padders has even been affected by this RP...I mean, really. do they need an excuse? nope. lol

i'm just not going to let Raiderr have his cake AND eat it tooI'll make a hypothesis right now., right here, that Raiderr only made this "RP" gesture to provoke MG into making some official statement/comment on the JOSSH news threatening some "RP" counteraction. I see no other logical conclusion that's beneficial for that greedy hotheaded pragmatist

Interstingly, While DoR are widely reviled, they are the one "pirate" squad I respect...

That is, theyre the one group thats PoDed me in a manner I found ... honorable.

When I was accosted:
1. The DoR Pirate had a huuge bounty.
2. I initially neglected to notice the PoD demand, and so the pirate blipped my shields, rather than simply ripping me.
3. This was done in reg space.
4. The PoD abount was reasonable - but then, 250K is the MAX allowed pod on EU.
5. After some more ... resistance ... negotiation ... on my part... that saw me armored - I paid the PoD.
6. The pirate did not take my attempted resistance as an excuse to rip me anyway.

I liked this:
1. It was in reg space. This was NOT some zero consequnces lamer out searching for helpless victims in unreg space. This was done in reg space witha large bounty and thus at actual risk to the pirate.
2. The pirate was a good sport about the whole thing, and quite patient. Possibly because he didnt really want to lose more Oct PR, but, aquescience to demands was answered with a cease in hostilities.

TDP - as above - are reported to more be the type that once theyve started shooting, dont stop until the cargo pilot is home in a pod.

I later passed a DoR hunting party in unreg with me loaded with 500 iridium, and was left alone.

Well, from the perspective of both my active(ish) EU acocunts, one peaceful, one, erm...not :P:

DoR are very much variable depending upon who you meet, and who is in charge. MysticM is a good bloke, and when he's online DoR tend to be kept very much in check. The problem is that DoR do have a lot of kiddies among them who have always been total eejits. When there's no command online, they run a bit rampant. DoR are not US players, they are largely continental Europeans.

It's the same really with TDP - My second account has been podded by Raiderr on more than one occasion. I always make a break for it (generally fly a scout) and he always goes for me. He had arties on one occasion, and started beating the hell out of me. I sent across the money, and he stopped. On the other hand, other TDP members are more in it for the large number of kills being a pirate brings.

Pirate breakdown:
DoR - German based, other (continental) Euros
TDP - Largely British, but also Euros
HoD - Very mixed, but the squad use English as their main language, IIRC
JF - German based, other (continental) Euros
Can't remember the others :P

It's basically a large mix of different nationalities, but there's certainly not an excess number of US 'ex pats' running around killing stuff, as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by DaveG
As for styles of play, we've had the debate before, but you say you don't think everyone should play like you do. However when you are 'Raiderr' you want to enforce your (how shall I say this), your 'brand of danger' on to them. That has always been at the core of any issue I've had with you (not withstanding my annecdotes of you, as far as I'm concerned they are or should be embarrisments for you 'cos they were greifing incidents). Some people don't want to do that. Some people like boring and safe, that's fine, some people like danger and killing (like yourself) that's fine too. So as long as the two don't interfere with each other that's great, JG is big enough for both styles to exist. Case in point being the state of things now, things are pretty well balanced now. People get to stay in Reg if they don't want any trouble, or they can risk going into un-reg and get PoD'd for 10 mil and no gurantees of still surviving the encounter. If you want to bring Raiderr back and stay within those boundaries that's fine too. If you don't that will be unfortunate and probably his undoing because MG may well bring out the ban stick.

Yes I force my RP on people. You dont think real pirates asked their victims if they thought it was ok if they robbed them do you?? As for safe roles and danger roles, they will always interfere with one another. Its the way the game works.

Things are not balanced atm..I run cargo daily free of hassle. Reg or unreg makes no differnce. Even when I do meet pirates...They wont risk even waste FF to chase me. I have no danger flying. Im free to do as I want as a trader. There is no danger in space. There is no RP in space, even MG are not RPing anything. You see balance..I see nothing..and the online numbers show it. When raiderr returns he will be acting as a real pirate..something not seen yet with the tools given to us by ND. I will have mixed fleets..some to steal ,some to kill. When the theft is over we will burn your ship to the ground just like the old days. Anyone that has traps will just be shot down instead of risking the life of my fellow pirate. Get the hint...nothing like the carebear crap your used to now..real mean pirates is what TDP has always been and will always be.

DaveG (starting to look like a carebear) wrote:

News flash, JG isn't real life, so your argument doesn't apply. Safe roles and danger roles do not need to interfere, that's the point of having regulated and un-regulated space. If you want to raise hell, go and do it in Un-regulated space, then nobody has the right to complain, because Un-reg is designated as no-rules.

You do know this and an out of character board don't you? Well it is.
If we're talking numbers, the majority of players are glad to see PoD's in reg space gone, plain and simple, so for who's sake would you try to change the climate of the game? If you want more danger, you can do what you want in un-reg. As for the "burning the ship to the ground" after the theft, well that is greifing, so if the cap fits! As for traps, you won't know until it's too late.

Raiderr (always sounded like a griefer ever since beta5) wrote:

No one goes to unreg. Its very boreing there. Try the role your self and see how much fun you have sitting in unreg for 8 hours of game play. Reg space isnt ment to be safe either..its ment to offer protection against people like me..but does not offer total safty..never will. **

Im not talking PoDs. Im happy to see them gone from reg space as well. Im talking being a real pirate. Steal the cargo and kill them off as to leave no witnesses.(eg they cant give info to pilots about the direction u heading) Doing what I said is not greifing. Its what pirates do. ND gave us the tools to be real pirates..and the game punishes us for our actions not MG. You call it greifing..but did you even take the time to read the stuff I posted that even started this thread?? If you did you would see this is how "real Pirates" acted. Now if im going to RP a pirate I will do it right down to the eye patch get it?? You call it greifing like you would any reason to kill someone not HG. You call it anything but RP. But the role it self comes from what the 1st part of this post talks about. I want to RP a pirate..right down to the last bit of info I can find on them..yet you call it greifing...when in reality/JG being a pirate gives you that reason to kill people. The pirate tags allows anyone to kill us. Yet we can not do the same as our role dictates we should. Food for thought.

Totaln00b wrote:

Um, okay. Yay for realism and everything, but would you care to tell me how that is in any way fun for anyone apart from you?
Call me a carebear, but I like to think that JG should be fun.

Raiderr (using yee olde 'self-policing' spiel) wrote:

I cant see it being to fun no..but I can see it forceing team work, hireing of escorts/getting squad mates to escort..as well add real danger to space.

As well it wouldnt be everyone..think about it..after a few pilot died like that..the rest fall into line. They stop let us take a set number of units of cargo and never carry traps. Very easy steps to follow to avoid dieing. I dont think it would take long to enforce it either. **

DaveG wrote:

I appreciate the sort of game you want to play Raiderr, but to be brutally honest (call us what you like) the rest of us don't want to play your game, and we shouldn't have to either.

totaln00b wrote:

But...you just said you'd "burn them down" after you were done taking cargo.

It's kinda sad how you just KNOW Raiderr & co. would love nothing better than to have an "inhibitor chip" (ignore their protestations about how JG's system will never change - just look at the precedences!)

**- it's obvious once you spot how their train of thought always fades away at critical points - LOOK at the logical conclusions to their claims - they do! (if subconsciously, cause it's too obvious)

UO & EQ, once they had that PKswitch inplace, the population bloomed and the company had enough cash to run red/blue servers...Just so you folks know, raiderr and types like him are NOT interested in solutions at all, because they don't believe the system can be balanced - that it's in their best (in their eyes) interests to aggravate the carebear/griefer conundrum. (the faster Raiderr gets his red server, more the better - in his eyes) It's a pity how the real issues get ignored because those issues are difficult ones...questions like, "how come vigilantes and HGquakeinspacers run amok whining about how the system justifies their actions, just like farmers rant about how Josh said their career wasn't an exploit (etc etc)"...questions that lead on to start looking at the root causes - NetDevil attracted these morons (don't blame it on the evils of the internet)

**- It's interesting that Raiderr & co always coo about 'self-policing' even when there's overwhelming evidence to show the current system actively seeks to crush any real regulation by players. period. (ask yourself what kind of retribution can be had by the little guy against organized bands of PvPers well acquainted to exploiting the system and how it punishes the little guy)

Why? well, it's quite simple once you understand Josh. Josh actually prefers these morons and their culture of vigilantism and quakeinspace...he couldn't care less about the noncombat logistics, because it was never meant to be anything more than something that felt a bit more real than the simulator anyways.

so, yes, questions that Raiderr doesn't want attention on are things JOSH doesn't want to focus on...it's ironic that people like Raiderr have become so attuned to how the system REALLY works rant on about how much freedom they have.

lmao BTW, did some research (something google didn't quite do for raiderr) on piracy and discovered some interesting points that get rather IGNORED by Raiderr and his ilk - here