Looking at wowprogress, 62% of 25 man guilds that have cleared the first boss have also cleared Horridon, whereas for 10 man it's about 32%. This to me suggests some sort of difficulty imbalance, most likely caused by raid composition and availability of interrupt and dispel mechanics.

We ran with three heals (priest, shammy, druid) and we had a hard time on the second door, I think due to dispels and possibly interrupts. I think that perhaps 2 healing might be the way to go as our dps was good overall, but perhaps adding another will cut down on raid damage.

I don't think you can draw that conclusion from that data. I would argue that the average 25m guild is more hard core than the average 10m guild because those putting the extra effort into coordinating a 25m guild tend to take it more seriously. Now if you had more data like how many 16/16 normal guilds killed it on both and how many 6/16hm guilds killed it on both and how many 10+/16 hm guilds killed it on both, maybe you could draw such a conclusion.

Originally Posted by Lumineus

Or the fact that each damage dealer in 10-man is expected to put out 2.5-3 times as much on the Dinomancer so they get overrun by adds... Blizz srsly hotfix this ish

Sorry but thats a load of crap. 25m adds have 3x the hp of 10m adds. It is roughly the same damage per person required (I say roughly because it depends on how many dps/healers you take).

We only got a few pulls on him last night but we we're having some serious trouble picking up all the adds in 10m. The bear tank in the group made a good point - how the heck is a bear supposed to pick up all those mobs spread so far apart, while dodging zones/swipe & performing interrupts? On my paladin I could get most of them as they spawned but still a couple got by me, but a bear only has their taunt to pick up stuff at range.

There is absolutely no way that this would make sense to any competitive raider.

Its also veeeery easy to say that when you're already comfortable at the top, but when you're sequestered out of relevance with almost no chance of fighting your way back up in time to be in the top 10 it really kinda sucks. That doesn't mean we're gonna stop fighting, just means a higher turn over rate due to progression and having to try to replace people with less than stellar progression to sell your guild with. Life at the top has its drawbacks, but by and large is much easier

No-one who wipes on horridon is a competitive raider, this post doesn't make any sense.
People who wipe on horridon are just your run of the mill 'normal raiders'

Please don't write offensive things like that. -Azshira

Last edited by Azshira; 2013-03-08 at 10:35 AM.

Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas

Blizzard offered cardboard cut outs with poster pictures of bosses stapled on them upside down and sideways and many players now feel that is raiding.

hm dont know what to say really. We oneshot horridon after 3 wipes on jinrokh. Only thing we had informationwise was more or less from this thread. We nuked priests until orb dude spawned, skulled him, and closed the door asap when the orb spawned. Full cc and interrupts is possible so rather important to have the individual player to bring their A-game. Actually we had 9 ppl die during the fight (6 being dead on the kill) and one of them was a tank, tho he died a few % left on the melee dude. Seemed to me (raidleader first time in here, no ptr testing) that it was more or less about getting the gate closed asap, interrupt everything u can and keep moving to next gate as soon as the previous one closes so u dont get behind in tanking or ccing.
Had like 4 ads or so left from last gate when melee dude spawned. Killed them and lusted. As soon as he dies its a kill. Even with one tank dead. We just HoP+freedomed our monk tank and it was a secure kill.
Feel free to pm me for logs or any tips!

We only got a few pulls on him last night but we we're having some serious trouble picking up all the adds in 10m. The bear tank in the group made a good point - how the heck is a bear supposed to pick up all those mobs spread so far apart, while dodging zones/swipe & performing interrupts? On my paladin I could get most of them as they spawned but still a couple got by me, but a bear only has their taunt to pick up stuff at range.

We only got a few pulls on him last night but we we're having some serious trouble picking up all the adds in 10m. The bear tank in the group made a good point - how the heck is a bear supposed to pick up all those mobs spread so far apart, while dodging zones/swipe & performing interrupts? On my paladin I could get most of them as they spawned but still a couple got by me, but a bear only has their taunt to pick up stuff at range.

Why is the bear dodging the swipes? They hit for a combination of roughly 100k on me, and a bear tank would have 50k more armor.
Just pick up the adds. Run through everything you have to. Hell, even the frozen orbs on 3rd gate tickle.

Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas

Blizzard offered cardboard cut outs with poster pictures of bosses stapled on them upside down and sideways and many players now feel that is raiding.

Looking at wowprogress, 62% of 25 man guilds that have cleared the first boss have also cleared Horridon, whereas for 10 man it's about 32%. This to me suggests some sort of difficulty imbalance, most likely caused by raid composition and availability of interrupt and dispel mechanics.

We ran with three heals (priest, shammy, druid) and we had a hard time on the second door, I think due to dispels and possibly interrupts. I think that perhaps 2 healing might be the way to go as our dps was good overall, but perhaps adding another will cut down on raid damage.

It's also indicative of the fact that 25 man raids are all raiding guilds, whereas plenty of levelling guilds and such that run 10 mans can roll over jinrokh, the easiest intro boss in a long time, and not be able to kill horridon, who actually requires execution (or maybe even have the time to get through the bridge).

We only got a few pulls on him last night but we we're having some serious trouble picking up all the adds in 10m. The bear tank in the group made a good point - how the heck is a bear supposed to pick up all those mobs spread so far apart, while dodging zones/swipe & performing interrupts? On my paladin I could get most of them as they spawned but still a couple got by me, but a bear only has their taunt to pick up stuff at range.

Misdirects would help a lot. Also most of the mobs do not hit hard even on a caster, so the dps bringing them to your bear shouldn't be a problem. Certain stuff does hit really hard if you aren't a tank though so you would have to pay attention. Though I do see your point...

Normal modes are tuned at earlies 490 on the first boss then 502 on horridon and that gear means you're killing it comfertably. I can't see much of an issue of blue geared players killing the first two bosses atleast in 25man...

I don't think you can draw that conclusion from that data. I would argue that the average 25m guild is more hard core than the average 10m guild because those putting the extra effort into coordinating a 25m guild tend to take it more seriously. Now if you had more data like how many 16/16 normal guilds killed it on both and how many 6/16hm guilds killed it on both and how many 10+/16 hm guilds killed it on both, maybe you could draw such a conclusion..

These numbers are from WoL success rates last night. And these are groups serious enough to use WoL.

These numbers are from WoL success rates last night. And these are groups serious enough to use WoL.
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I've got a handful of friends in different 10man and 25man guilds, and they all unanimously agreed that Ji'kun was a total joke on 10man and done with basically zero co-ordinaton, whereas 25man requires a lot more.
The 10man guild wiped on Horridon a few times with their mains, whereas my guild, and my friends guilds alt groups just plowed it on 25man. It's undoubtedly harder on 10man simply due to the lack of dispells (if you raid composition doesnt allow it). It's all about passing the 2nd/3rd gate. Once you've done that, collect loot.
Our alt groups were consisting of a handful people like my warlock which is only 483 ilvl, and other characters in the mid 480s low 490s and we smashed it on 25man, but then friends guilds on 10man whom were all 500+ still managed to kill it with ease, but took a lot more effort than it did for us. "Pop revival now", dead boss.

There are always going to be fights that are more difficult on different difficulties, it's nigh impossible to tune everything perfectly on both difficulties. Horridon just happens to be one that is harder on 10man than 25man (substantially) - and it's just a shame its the 2nd boss, and not something like 6th onwards that most of the run of the mill raiders wouldnt get to for a couple of weeks.

Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas

Blizzard offered cardboard cut outs with poster pictures of bosses stapled on them upside down and sideways and many players now feel that is raiding.

These numbers are from WoL success rates last night. And these are groups serious enough to use WoL

That doesn't mean anything. I know on my server pretty much all the guilds with even half of normal mode down for t14 run WoL. Not trying to get into 10vs25 difficulty, but when I said I would argue that 25m guilds are likely to be more hard core I meant like I think all the 25m guilds on my server are over 16/16 normal. That can't be said for all of the 10m guilds that show up on WoL though. So unless you want to give stats compared to progression last tier for both sizes, you can't draw that conclusion.

As for our tactics, from the second door onwards it's really important to burn down the first "special" add whether it's a venom priest, frost warlord, or the warbear/beast shaman or you'll probably struggle with healing and as a consequence fall behind on dispels. We burned some personal dps cooldowns to get to that point.

Depending on your healers it might be important to stack up and use small raid cd's to keep yourselves up while you have two of these adds alive at the same time. That and never having 3 adds up at the same time really seemed to help our healers keep up.

That doesn't mean anything. I know on my server pretty much all the guilds with even half of normal mode down for t14 run WoL. Not trying to get into 10vs25 difficulty, but when I said I would argue that 25m guilds are likely to be more hard core I meant like I think all the 25m guilds on my server are over 16/16 normal. That can't be said for all of the 10m guilds that show up on WoL though. So unless you want to give stats compared to progression last tier for both sizes, you can't draw that conclusion.

It's not just Horridon. It's almost across the board that 10m is struggling more than 25m. It has nothing to do with the seriousness of the groups, even on later bosses 10m success rate barely goes up. The difficulty curve is just fucked up to have people cockblocked on the 2nd boss of normal. And Horridon isn't even that easy for 25m compared to 1st boss (26%) and later bosses (also over 26%), it's just that 10m is struggling more.

EDIT: The number of adds is the same on 25m and 10m. So on P3, a 10m will have a much larger % of its raid getting disease stacks and fewer potential people to dispel it. Usually 5 Champions and 5 Warriors will spawn before the gate gets crushed. That's 6+ (because Warriors die quickly) disease targets going out. How is it balanced for a 10m to have more than half their raid diseased and they may not have the composition to dispel it, while a 25m only has 20-25% of their raid diseased and much more options for dispelling? The seriousness of the players isn't a factor in this, it's just not balanced.