Jack Nicklaus always played well at Augusta, which is notorious for favoring a draw, in spite of his normal fade. He did ultimately learn to play a draw, mostly because there were shots at Augusta where he really needed it, but his stock shot was a fade, and he played most of the time. Even in situations where a draw might have been the better choice, he would only try to turn the ball left when absolutely necessary.

If you consider that even someone with his talent would have difficulty playing a dependable draw, it really amazes me when I read comments from 15 handicappers who say that they draw and fade at will. I don't know who they think they are kidding, but I'm not buying it. I've played a fade my whole playing life, except when I'm playing a slice. Trying to learn how to play a draw only got me a duck hook, and made me have relearn how to play my fade. I don't mess with it any more.

It is better because you can in many ways eliminate one side of the course. With a straight shot, you can miss left and right with small variances in clubface angle or clubhead path.

If you aim straight at the flag, you can miss both left and right. If you got water to the left and a bunker to the right, you could end up in both. If you got a consistent curvature on the ball flight, you can more accurately predict where you possibly will miss. You can always miss both ways of course, but the margins of that is smaller if you got a predictable draw or fade. We want to hit the intended shot every time, but that's not possible. Once we accept this, we have to look at how to control the misses and limit the damage. By hitting a draw or fade, you make your missed shots "better".

Jack Nicklaus always played well at Augusta, which is notorious for favoring a draw, in spite of his normal fade. He did ultimately learn to play a draw, mostly because there were shots at Augusta where he really needed it, but his stock shot was a fade, and he played most of the time. Even in situations where a draw might have been the better choice, he would only try to turn the ball left when absolutely necessary.

If you consider that even someone with his talent would have difficulty playing a dependable draw, it really amazes me when I read comments from 15 handicappers who say that they draw and fade at will. I don't know who they think they are kidding, but I'm not buying it. I've played a fade my whole playing life, except when I'm playing a slice. Trying to learn how to play a draw only got me a duck hook, and made me have relearn how to play my fade. I don't mess with it any more.

I used to hit big draws/hooks. Then fades. Now I'm only startingto hit draws and I've completely lost the ability to hit it a fade even if I try. Its not a big loss, but its really frustrating.

Jack Nicklaus always played well at Augusta, which is notorious for favoring a draw, in spite of his normal fade. He did ultimately learn to play a draw, mostly because there were shots at Augusta where he really needed it, but his stock shot was a fade, and he played most of the time. Even in situations where a draw might have been the better choice, he would only try to turn the ball left when absolutely necessary.

If you consider that even someone with his talent would have difficulty playing a dependable draw, it really amazes me when I read comments from 15 handicappers who say that they draw and fade at will. I don't know who they think they are kidding, but I'm not buying it. I've played a fade my whole playing life, except when I'm playing a slice. Trying to learn how to play a draw only got me a duck hook, and made me have relearn how to play my fade. I don't mess with it any more.

Amen to that. I play a pretty reliable draw and have never really been able to fade the ball. I wish that I could hit either at will but Im not there yet.

I hit a small fade as my go to shot most of the time (5 yard fade). I tried to learn to hit draws and can now somewhat, but it just doesn't fit my eye and it turns into a hook to easily for me. For me a fade is the most consistent shot I have. Also there is nothing wrong with straight, but most of the time a working shot is the best option.

Speaking of fading the ball, I have started fading the ball during my last 2 rounds. It is a little more than I would like, you guys would call it a power fade. I wouldn't go that far but it is fading between 30-50 yards. Learning this fade has helped me improve my scoring from 91 average the last 4 rounds to averaging 97. It is awesome, I can't wait til I start slicing the ball and I am hitting 2 fairways over instead of just the one fairway over right now. LOL!

it really amazes me when I read comments from 15 handicappers who say that they draw and fade at will. I don't know who they think they are kidding, but I'm not buying it.

I'm sorry, but if you have somewhat of a repeatable swing a draw and fade can be controlled with setup. I tend to draw, so if I want to play a fade I aim left and open the clubface so it's pointing at my target. Then I just make a normal swing. There's really nothing more to it than that regardless of what your handicap is.

I'm sorry, but if you have somewhat of a repeatable swing a draw and fade can be controlled with setup. I tend to draw, so if I want to play a fade I aim left and open the clubface so it's pointing at my target. Then I just make a normal swing. There's really nothing more to it than that regardless of what your handicap is.

Of course that might work for you but just for anyone out there reading this looking to do the same thing, the major factor in determining the direction the ball starts is the clubface. So doing exactly as you say will start the ball pretty much at the target and curve it further right.

Of course that might work for you but just for anyone out there reading this looking to do the same thing, the major factor in determining the direction the ball starts is the clubface. So doing exactly as you say will start the ball pretty much at the target and curve it further right.

This is incorrect. Clubface angle may be the major factor in determining direction, but it's not the only factor. If you bounce a basketball on a perfectly flat treadmill moving at 5 miles per hour, do you think it's going to bounce straight up and down? No. A golfball compresses when struck, so there's friction. If you swing 20 yards left of a target and at contact your clubface is perfectly aligned with your target, that ball is gonna move left.......not 20 yards left, but probably 5 or more depending on the club.

This isn't my opinion. These are simple laws of physics. If you don't believe me, try it with a putter on a practice green or carpet, etc. Keep the face square to the target but make a stroke that cuts out to in across your target line. I assure you the putt will start left.

I'm sorry, but if you have somewhat of a repeatable swing a draw and fade can be controlled with setup. I tend to draw, so if I want to play a fade I aim left and open the clubface so it's pointing at my target. Then I just make a normal swing. There's really nothing more to it than that regardless of what your handicap is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordan

Of course that might work for you but just for anyone out there reading this looking to do the same thing, the major factor in determining the direction the ball starts is the clubface. So doing exactly as you say will start the ball pretty much at the target and curve it further right.

Not necessarily. He didn't say anything about where his clubface points at impact, only at setup. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Shanks

This is incorrect. Clubface angle may be the major factor in determining direction, but it's not the only factor. If you bounce a basketball on a perfectly flat treadmill moving at 5 miles per hour, do you think it's going to bounce straight up and down? No. A golfball compresses when struck, so there's friction. If you swing 20 yards left of a target and at contact your clubface is perfectly aligned with your target, that ball is gonna move left.......not 20 yards left, but probably 5 or more depending on the club.

This isn't my opinion. These are simple laws of physics. If you don't believe me, try it with a putter on a practice green or carpet, etc. Keep the face square to the target but make a stroke that cuts out to in across your target line. I assure you the putt will start left.

I believe that its 85%/15% clubface/path, so that would mean your example would have the ball starting something like 3 yards left. Although, that's a weird way of measuring swing direction. I think it would make more sense to measure it in degrees.

Mordan's point, though, is that if you actually were to return the clubface back at impact and it's still pointing at the target then there are no ifs, ands or butts about it ... you're missing right. That 15% isn't enough to keep you hitting that target ... to do so that clubface needs to be some amount of degrees left of target but right of path.

This is incorrect. Clubface angle may be the major factor in determining direction, but it's not the only factor. If you bounce a basketball on a perfectly flat treadmill moving at 5 miles per hour, do you think it's going to bounce straight up and down? No. A golfball compresses when struck, so there's friction. If you swing 20 yards left of a target and at contact your clubface is perfectly aligned with your target, that ball is gonna move left.......not 20 yards left, but probably 5 or more depending on the club.

This isn't my opinion. These are simple laws of physics. If you don't believe me, try it with a putter on a practice green or carpet, etc. Keep the face square to the target but make a stroke that cuts out to in across your target line. I assure you the putt will start left.

Why are you arguing? You're saying almost exactly the same thing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordan

Of course that might work for you but just for anyone out there reading this looking to do the same thing, the major factor in determining the direction the ball starts is the clubface. So doing exactly as you say will start the ball pretty much at the target and curve it further right.

He did not say the ONLY factor. He said it was the major factor (and it is, and you agree).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordan

Of course that might work for you but just for anyone out there reading this looking to do the same thing, the major factor in determining the direction the ball starts is the clubface. So doing exactly as you say will start the ball pretty much at the target and curve it further right.

He did not say EXACTLY at the target. He said it'll start "pretty much" at the target (and it will, and you agree).

This is incorrect. Clubface angle may be the major factor in determining direction, but it's not the only factor. If you bounce a basketball on a perfectly flat treadmill moving at 5 miles per hour, do you think it's going to bounce straight up and down? No. A golfball compresses when struck, so there's friction. If you swing 20 yards left of a target and at contact your clubface is perfectly aligned with your target, that ball is gonna move left.......not 20 yards left, but probably 5 or more depending on the club.

This isn't my opinion. These are simple laws of physics. If you don't believe me, try it with a putter on a practice green or carpet, etc. Keep the face square to the target but make a stroke that cuts out to in across your target line. I assure you the putt will start left.

I said it was the major factor, not the only one. And I said it would pretty much start at the target, not that it would exactly start at the target.

If your swing path is 20 yards left of target, and your clubface is perfectly aligned (which appears to be what you were suggesting), then the ball will start a few yards left of target and curve considerably more than that to the right.

The putter as an example actually works against what you're saying. Because it has so little loft, the ball will start up to 95% in the direction of the club face, and only about 5% in the direction of your swing path.

Speaking of fading the ball, I have started fading the ball during my last 2 rounds. It is a little more than I would like, you guys would call it a power fade. I wouldn't go that far but it is fading between 30-50 yards. Learning this fade has helped me improve my scoring from 91 average the last 4 rounds to averaging 97. It is awesome, I can't wait til I start slicing the ball and I am hitting 2 fairways over instead of just the one fairway over right now. LOL!

My driver shot shape is usually straight with the occasional small draw. I never fade that club, but when I hit my short irons correctly they are predictably straight and I usually fade my long irons and hybrids. I'm just not very consistent right now, likely due to limited practice time.