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A quiverful of miracles: virgin births across America!

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Teen births don't bother Christianists so much. You find them in the Bible for one thing, and the earlier we get the breeders started on producing Holy Warriors the better. It's out-of-wedlock births that the fundies despise, for in order to receive proper Holy Warrior training, everybody knows you need a man around.

Unlike approx. 25% of the world's 1.2 billion Muslims who are actually faithful to the teachings of the Koran and send their children to destroy as many people as possible, no North American Christian, regardless of how conservative or fundametalist they are, does such a thing.

History does tell of people in the past who professed Catholicism and who waged "Holy War" in the Crusades, but that is centuries old history. The so-called "fundamentalist" Protestants of America have never gone out and killed others of another religion or of the same religion as over 200 million Muslims have. (And don't bring up the Native Americans - those were political, not religious efforts and many Christians actually saved the lives and health of the Native Americans in those times.)

So again, let's cut the intollerance and ignorance and save the "Holy Warrior" talk for those who are actually participating in such inhumane activity. I am not a fundamentalist and I strongly disagree with them on many issues, but again, let's actually be tolerant and progressive, not to mention honest and intelligent when discussing such matters.

A little pointed research would show that contributing factors to this rise in teen pregnancy has to do with both a general rise in population and the influx of illegal immigration - alien teens showing up in our hospitals receiving free health care.

As a registered nurse, these facts anger me. Part of the rapid rise in health costs is the attempt of health organizations to cover their losses in all of the "free" care provided. Regardless of the political party or pursuasion of any President we may have, she/he cannot be blamed (at least not by any responsible thoughtful and intelligent individual) for either a rise or fall in rates of teen pregnancy and birth rates.

Apropos of shunning hate speech and being tolerant, progressive and intelligent, "Unlike approx. 25% of the world’s 1.2 billion Muslims who... send their children to destroy as many people as possible" does not exactly do you proud.

quote:How can you tolerate and spew such ignorant biggoted hate speech?

what was hateful about pointing out that since the programs shifted to "abstinence only" and FALSE INFORMATION (including those canards about the pill being an abortion, and abortion raising the risk of breast cancer) started being supplied, teen pregnancy rose?

what was hateful about pointing out that since cutoffs in funding to Planned Parenthood and biologically science-based sex education, "hope and prayer" stopped working to lower teen birthrates?

what was hateful about pointing out that with contraceptives harder to get EVEN with a prescription, there'd be more single mothers?

And the word is bigoted. The definition is in your mirror.

A little pointed research would show that contributing factors to this rise in teen pregnancy has to do with both a general rise in population and the influx of illegal immigration - alien teens showing up in our hospitals receiving free health care.

Alien teens? From, like, Roswell? Mars? Canada?
I call bullshit on this. I mean, just absolutely, bullshit.
Give me specific numbers from specific hospitals in specific parts of the country -- Florida? Chicago? South Texas? Louisiana? Georgia? Kentucky? Maine? Wyoming? Montana? Washington State? Where are these "alien" teens showing up, A.V.? (and how can you tell they're "alien" teens, and not just goth teens or emo teens or much-tattooed American Heinz 57 teens? 'cuz, trust me, green hair and navel studs doesn't prove anything other than that they watch too much tv.) I will stipulate that a general rise in population may be a contributory factor -- but bigger contributory factors are a much larger general rise in (purposely created) ignorance about the basic workings of human reproduction and the simple, safe, and effective methods of preventing pregnancy. Notable is that the teen birth rate had declined prior to the Bush regency despite a GOP-dominant, pro-ignorance, anti-education Congress's influence. Oh, and while we're at it, PROVE that "influx of illegal immigration" craptacular claim.

As a registered nurse, these facts anger me. Part of the rapid rise in health costs is the attempt of health organizations to cover their losses in all of the “free” care provided.

Um, NO. It's recovery for indigent or underinsured care, or emergency care that US HEALTH INSURERS DENY CLAIMS FOR.
You wanna be angry about this? Fine. Get your facts straight before you go spouting off anti-poor-people propaganda. I won't even say please 'cause I don't feel like being nice about this. Hospitals and doctors were hoodwinked by the pro-corporatist "tort reform" garbage spewed and lobbied into law for YEARS as "malpractice insurance abuse". So now people crippled or killed can't get relief for the damages done them, and the insurance companies not only aren't lowering their rates on the doctors and hospitals, they're continuing to raise the rates just like before "tort reform." Figure out who's lying to you, A.V.

Regardless of the political party or pursuasion of any President we may have, she/he cannot be blamed (at least not by any responsible thoughtful and intelligent individual) for either a rise or fall in rates of teen pregnancy and birth rates.

Maybe not personally, but certainly in terms of the appointments resultant from an underlying philosophy that informs and shapes policies, s/he certainly can be blamed -- particularly when direct and verifiable data prove the claims. Oh, and the word is persuasion.

So where'd you get your RN?

We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill today! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

You guys and girls think you have a higher way of thinking? I tell you what we should adopt the atheist and evolutionary religion.( and it is a religion). The same one of Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zing. If their is no god and the horrible Christians are wrong then we can absolutely live however we want. Lets pretend that morals come from the evolution of civilization and then there won't be a need for a god. But let's hope thats true because if their is a higher power that we have to answer to then we might be in trouble. Now if you haven't guessed by now I am a Christian and I served in Iraq so that you guys can say what ever you want to say no matter how stupid it sounds. This day in age you won't be killed for talking crap about the president or his beliefs.

But if you lived in Iraq and Saddam was still in power your sisters and daughters could be raped and killed and you tortured for the things some of you have said on here. I know guys that it happened to. Bush hasn't and won't do that. It's hard to respond to this because most of you may not even read this to learn anything or have any open mind about it. But it shows me something of the mindset people have that don't know God and it saddens me because some of you are so mad and hurt by life that it spews out onto people that aren't spewing hatered on you. Half these posts are ripen on RN. so childish, regardless of the nice multi-syllable vocabulary some of you have. S

I know some of you will continue to be childish and pick apart my statement and make it say something its not. But, I hope some of you will be open minded to what I say because, true ignorance will not listen, to one side or the other.

And plenty of good, church-going Germans were all for him. No, I don't believe in God. But I do believe in the reality of human evil, and religion is responsible for much of it.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Hitler may have been for the church But he was also for pagan, satanic, occultic, etc. sources that he thought could bring him power. (be it supernatural or natural). A lot of civilians didn't know about some of the things Hitler was doing.(gassing Jews, human experiments, etc.) and those that did and went to church and claimed to be Christians, well it's like this if John says "Go build a house here are the blueprints" and then some people go and start destroying houses and say "John told me to I'm doing this in John's name." Well I would say that person is a liar, or a lunatic. If people do things that go against what Jesus said and then say "I follow Jesus" well no he/she doesn't. Jesus said "if you love me you will obey my commands." Do you think Hitler obeyed Jesus' commands.

And I agree human evil is a reality, however the only reason we know what is evil is not because religions formed it but because it is exposed by religion. If the bible didn't say it's wrong to shed innocent blood then how would you know it's evil to torture little children? We wouldn't.

Corrente is a wonderful place, and we welcome all voices.
We do, however, require that you pay attention to known facts.

Hitler's rise to power was in the name of Christendom, and the National Socialist Party defined the role of women in society as Kinder, Kirchen, Kuchen -- Kids, Church, and the Kitchen. So no, Adolf Hitler, though he was many things and all of them evil, was no atheist. His religion figures very little into his madness, as is true also of Stalin; but Hitler claimed Christian principles to the very end -- as he eschewed liquor, tobacco and even meat.
Josef Stalin? He was a seminary student, raised in a protective home by a devout mother.

Mao Zing? I have no idea who that is, but if you by that mean Mao Tse Tung, aka Mao Zedong, I suggest you reconsider his commitment to atheism as well. In the milieu of his culture, Taoism is likeliest to have been at the roots of whatever his faith / philosophy was.

Christians can claim their own bloody emperors, from Saul of Tarsus through the Holy Roman Empire to Richelieu in France in the 1600s to the fundamentalist New Crusade espoused by the modern Republican Party and the evangelistic legions who acclaim George W Bush as their sovereign -- and welcome to it; but how can anyone who looks with honest eyes at the works of George W Bush and the modern Republican party, with their open favoritism towards rich cronies and profiteering, their illegal and unneccessary war and their constant efforts to terrorize their own citizenry, and see true followers of Jesus?

Read the Beatitudes again, and compare what Jesus urges us to do with the actions of the current President, the current Vice President, the Congressional leadership of their party -- who is it who leaves the poor to drown in the Gulf Coast after hurricanes, and visits death and destruction upon women and children half a world away in a quest not for justice or truth but worldly riches, mainly oil? Be not deceived, Astonished; it is written that the Antichrist will make many follow him because he will do signs and wonders and lead astray multitudes.

And we don't have to live in Iraq for Blackwater and KBR to rape and murder our sisters, mothers, brothers and fathers, Astonished.

Perhaps morals do come from a higher power -- conscience, and a sense of fairness, however, can take as much credit for the implementation of morals in a truly egalitarian society as can the efforts of believers to frighten others into conforming to their beliefs, no?

As far as letting AV RN ripen, why not? Certainly the opinions expressed were pulled too green to be of good season and mature thought.

Hitler was an unbelieving apostate Catholic who cynically promoted his own spurious religious vision, a corrupted version of the old Teutonic gods melded with the most militant aspects of Christianity, as a propaganda tool inseparable from and integral to his vision of Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer.

It isn't that religion is necessarily evil, but rather that evil people can so easily use it for their own perverted ends. Hitler was evil before he seized religion as a cynical tool of statist control. The same magnitude of evil has happened in dedicatedly non-religious political systems as under Lenin, Stalin and Mao and under deeply religious systems as under the Inquisition and Puritanism. All authoritarian systems are susceptible, including but not exclusively religion.

Saul of Tarsus later known as Paul is that who you are referring to? Yes Saul of Tarsus did horrible things. But Saul didn't do those things in the name of Jesus we did that before he met Christ (read Acts chapter 9 for the account). So you can't count Saul aka Paul in with evil people of Christendom. I'll say this again because it's important, if I say I follow Jesus but I don't do the things Jesus said do (i.e. love those who hate you, feed the poor, care for the sick, live a life of meekness and humbleness, serve one another.) then you can't point at Jesus as a bad teacher or all of his followers as ignorant and foolish because of bad apples. The "Holy" Roman Empire wasn't holy. Like bringiton said "All authoritarian systems are susceptible, including but not exclusively religion." The average person in that day did not have a bible probobly had never read a bible. The catholic church forbid people from having bibles. And let's not forget were the crusaders started, they were started to stop Muslim invaders from spreading over Europe, If you study the Quran the spread of Islam is taught very throughly and often Muhammad spread it very violently. The crusaders rose up to stop them from invading their homeland just like anyone would do if someone came to their home and said serve Jesus or I'll kill you.

As for the President and the leadership of this country being "sovereign" I don't think so. I don't know anybody that does. The "evangelical legions" come on seriously, it's sounds cute but thats not the FACTS. The President says he is a follower of Jesus Christ, could he be lieing sure,as for him being the Antichrist the signs and wonders are supposed to be supernatural so they can "fool even the elect" The Antichrist is going to portray him self as God and do a good job at it I don't think Bush could convince even his most loyal evangelical legionnaire that he is God.

As for Hitler, Stalin, and Mao I was referring more to their belief in evolution than their atheist beliefs. But, my main point was NOT that they WERE atheists but that evolution and atheistic ideas have produced worst monsters than any in Christendom

We don't live in an egalitarian world the stronger try to over power the weaker. A sense of fairness can not come from this type of world with out God The lion will not lay down with a lamb, until God makes it so. The lions won't say I feel bad for eating you child so lets be friends. Not in this world.

It's good to be home.

PS. while RN's comments may have seemed immature that doesn't give the rest of us the right to jump on her like a bunch of lions, were is the fairness?

When someone comes blustering in, as RN did, with "How can you tolerate and spew such ignorant biggoted hate speech?" and then proceeds to ooze obvious bigotry toward Muslims, I think that's a license to pounce.

The internal discontinuities in your arguments make your nom de guerre much more readily comprehensible.

In other words, take a good hard look at both your posts and make up your mind what you really mean, what you really believe, what you really intend to say. Set yourself baselines and foundations, and stop spinning.

Thank you for your comment.
Please don't hesitate to come back and comment again.

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people."

- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

My words were not a defense of organized religion but rather a condemnation. It is exactly the authoritarian nature of almost all religions, however well intended they begin, that provides the fertile field for corruption. The difficulty doesn’t stem from faith, per se – we all operate from faith, one way or another – but in the authoritarian claims of absolute truth and demands for submission that are inherent in all organized religion. Paul’s brilliance was in seeing how the teachings of Christ could be misused for organization, something he was trained in as a centurion. His reconstruction of what was a fundamentally decentralized communion of believers into organized congregations with rules, a hierarchy of earthly authority and an army of proselytizing recruiters could not have ended up any way but what it did, a means of statist authoritarian oppression.

And you need to do some work on your history. The Crusades as a whole had nothing at all to do with defense of Europe against Muslim invasion. That was just part of the recruiting pitch, “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here at home.” Sound familiar? As to the relative moral superiority of Medieval Christendom, if you made lists of horrific behaviors by Muslims and Christians you couldn’t tell them apart. And the claims that Muslims were defiling Jerusalem were the equivalent of Bush’s claims about Iraqi WMDs, willful and knowing lies used to fan fear and loathing in support of an immoral quest. By the time the Crusades were begun the Muslim rulers of Palestine had rebuilt and repaired all earlier destruction and were actively protecting and encouraging Christian pilgrims for the money they brought.

The appeal for armed support from Alexis I of Byzantium to Pope Gregory was for the purpose of reconquering lands (modern Turkey) that the Byzantines had lost. The next Pope, Urban II, saw crusades as a means of reestablishing authority over the Eastern Rite church; attacking Muslims was only a means to that end. There was never any Muslim threat to mainland Europe at all beyond Iberia, and that had already begun to crumble.

The core objectives of the organizers of the Crusades were four-fold: reunite all Christendom under the Roman Papacy; to send troublesome royals and the restive rabble far away for a long time, where hopefully they would die and be troublesome no more, and; to consolidate power at home in the absence of all those troublemakers. A final component, again so reminiscent of the modern time, was greed; those who marched to the Middle East did so in hopes of treasure that would bring them power on their return, and those who sent them hoped to steal any looted treasure for themselves. Only the gullible believed that the whole of what they were doing was God’s will. Eight hundred years on and still the same folly.

Missed your reference to being in Iraq. Were you in the service, or there in some civilian capacity? Either way, welcome home.

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