Flotilla aid refused by Hamas (JPost)

Hamas refused on Wednesday to allow the aid equipment that was captured by the IDF aboard the flotilla ships earlier this week to enter the Gaza Strip.

"We refuse to receive the humanitarian aid until all those who were detained aboard the ships are released," said Ahmed Kurd, Minister for Social Welfare in the Hamas government said. "We also insist that the equipment be delivered in its entirety."

Kurd said that Israel's decision to allow a number of wheelchairs to be delivered to the Gaza Strip was a "deception," claiming that the batteries that operate them had been removed, making them useless.

The Hamas minister said that Israel's decision to send some of the aid that was seized aboard the ships to the Gaza Strip was designed to divert attention from the "massacre" that took place in the sea.

The problem with this story is that everyone is making it out like the individuals on the ship were innocent unarmed civilians on a peaceful mission. Meanwhile they had weapons, fought back, and were bringing who knows what through controlled waters. If I run through area 51 unannounced I expect to be shot on sight, if I drive a boat through protected waters, I expect the same.

Israel was setup and they were suckers for taking the bait. Hamas just wanted to stir up shit and they were entirely successful. What the world should (but won't) do is disconnect and let this get hashed out between Israel and all other interested parties (read every arab nation state, tribe, whatever). Israel is quite capable of defending itself from anyone (Prolly even the US if it came down to it). Hamas has definitely demonstrated that they are just fine without any aid by turning it away.

This just goes to show that Hamas cares nothing for the Palestinians if they are refusing aid in order to grandstand. Yes, Isreal's actions were comically heavy handed (commandos repelling down from a military helicopter onto an aid boat), but the activists that were running the blockade should have known that they would be intercepted by the IDF. Its not like it was some surprise raid, and the hitting soldiers with pipes, and other makeshift melee weapons...WTF were they thinking?

From what I understood the soldiers came armed with Paintball guns, and didn't even start using them until the crew became violent. What was the crew expecting to accomplish? Even if they were able to incapacitate/kill/drive-off the soldiers their boat would have just gotten torpedoed. Don't most activists in this situation just surrender so they can make a political statement about their cause?

It is a complicated situation: The residence of Gaza are suffering in poverty, but Israel refuses to let in a list of goods because they're afraid of Hamas appropriating parts to forge into weapons to attack Israel. For example canned goods aren't allowed because the cans could be forged into rockets. I assume that's the same logic that was applied to the wheelchair batteries, since they could be used in detonators and remote triggers.

Of course this blockade serves to anger the Gazan public causing them to throw more support behind Hamas. However the Israeli public is seeing less suicide bombers and rocket attacks so they're more likely to support the current hard-line government and their tactics on Gaza.

Unfortunately, the only way this situation is going to get resolved is for Hamas to stop acting crazy, but given their statements since their inception, and the risk that they would look like they were surrendering to Israel, its unlike that they will do anything to help the situation.

Actually, their is a much easier way for Israel to end this - just accept the truce Hamas have been offering for years.

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And they have what incentive to do so?

* Hamas has called for the destruction of Israel and uses any pretext to stir-up hate.

* Hamas has intentionally fired rockets at "soft targets" in Israel and has celebrated when it hit high population areas, preschools, etc.

* Hamas' "truce" is widely believed to be offered in bad-faith, with the intention to use any talks to rearm, fortify, and prosecute a terror campaign against Israel.

* Israel has seen a dramatic decrease in rocket attacks and suicide bombings since Gaza was cut off.

* The political will in Israel is currently very hard-line, so any politician that is seen as "soft of Hamas" risks losing their job.

* Israel is in a position of strength and doesn't currently stand to gain from any truce. Israel only risks losing from accepting a truce from Hamas.

Until Hamas somehow shows that its changed its ways Israel isn't going to allow them to acquire any resources that could be used militarily. Unfortunately, this has plunged Gaza and its citizens into deep poverty. Overall Israel doesn't care. Its political leaders and citizens currently see the situation as a trade off between Israeli lives and Gazan lives.

They're making the responsible choice, albeit an unpalatable one. For who could risk the lives of their own family for another? What state would chose the lives of foreign nationals over its own citizens?

Isn't it odd that nine people died from paintball "wounds", eh?
I want some of those paintball guns too! They must really rock!

There's no question about who fired the first shots because only
one group was armed and bullets and grenades started flying before
boots hit the deck.

No matter the excuses, punishing a whole region of people just
because a majority of them voted in a government you don't like is
still illegal and immoral. What do you say to those who voted for
somebody else? Should they start shooting up their neighborhoods
on your behalf to please you? No? Well then stop trying to starve
the civilians when it's the militants who cause the problems.
It doesn't work and only creates new militants, the real goal.

The real reason for the seige and blockade is to prevent any possibility
of peace. If peace broke out then Israel would start to lose control
over Palestinians. Look at what happens every time the threat of Peace
came up. The last time, "Cast Lead" was the response to a ceasefire
that was actually working. Cant have that and might as well destroy
farms and wells to make sure the status quo lasts another generation.

Isn't it odd that nine people died from paintball "wounds", eh?
I want some of those paintball guns too! They must really rock!

There's no question about who fired the first shots because only
one group was armed and bullets and grenades started flying before
boots hit the deck.

No matter the excuses, punishing a whole region of people just
because a majority of them voted in a government you don't like is
still illegal and immoral. What do you say to those who voted for
somebody else? Should they start shooting up their neighborhoods
on your behalf to please you? No? Well then stop trying to starve
the civilians when it's the militants who cause the problems.
It doesn't work and only creates new militants, the real goal.

The real reason for the seige and blockade is to prevent any possibility
of peace. If peace broke out then Israel would start to lose control
over Palestinians. Look at what happens every time the threat of Peace
came up. The last time, "Cast Lead" was the response to a ceasefire
that was actually working. Cant have that and might as well destroy
farms and wells to make sure the status quo lasts another generation.

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Easy to say when you live in a country not being bombed and targeted by people wanting to wipe you off the face of the planet. Egypt and Israel have both blocked out Palestinian territory because whenever they allow more freedoms they get burned. If the Palestinians want peace, they need to clean up their act, its simple as that.

Isn't it odd that nine people died from paintball "wounds", eh?
I want some of those paintball guns too! They must really rock!

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They switched to live ammo once the crew started getting violent.

There's no question about who fired the first shots because only
one group was armed and bullets and grenades started flying before
boots hit the deck.

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The way I heard it shots were fired AFTER the crew started to attack the soldiers en mass. I believe the situation is still under investigation though.

No matter the excuses, punishing a whole region of people just because a majority of them voted in a government you don't like is still illegal and immoral. What do you say to those who voted for somebody else? Should they start shooting up their neighborhoods
on your behalf to please you? No? Well then stop trying to starve the civilians when it's the militants who cause the problems.
It doesn't work and only creates new militants, the real goal.

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You're not really clear on this whole "nation-state" idea are you...

Let me break it down: When a people vote in a government that government's actions are seen as approved by the electorate. If that government engages in acts of war against another nation-state then it is seen as an act approved by the majority of the citizens of the state. Now this can be mitigated if the electorate are seen to protest the decision, but I have yet to see Gazan protest of any scale against Hamas' actions.

This is the problem. The citizens of Israel see the election of Hamas by the Gazans as an approval of Hamas' actions against Israel. Although really it was more likely the Gazans were just giving the collective finger to Fatah who they found corrupt and lazy.

The real reason for the seige and blockade is to prevent any possibility
of peace. If peace broke out then Israel would start to lose control
over Palestinians. Look at what happens every time the threat of Peace
came up. The last time, "Cast Lead" was the response to a ceasefire
that was actually working. Cant have that and might as well destroy
farms and wells to make sure the status quo lasts another generation.

Click to expand...

Yeah, things were working out real well last time, except for you know...those rockets that were fired into Israel. "Cast Lead" was a response to periodic rocket fire coming from Gaza. WTF dose Israel even gain from this conflict, or "control of the Palestinians?" This conflict only complicates their domestic and international position. Israel has a lot to gain from peace. This is why they made peace with the various Arab nations in the region, and why they established economic ties with Jordan, Egypt, and Turkey.

The entire conflict with the Palestinians is holding Israel back from greater economic prosperity. The only reason its being prosecuted is because the Israeli citizens feel that any relenting will cause the death of their own people.

While the Israeli policy of "collective punishment" - where whole neighborhoods are leveled in response to Hamas attacks - is, IMO, way to heavy handed, its seen as legitimate because Hamas is in de jure control of Gaza.

* Hamas has called for the destruction of Israel and uses any pretext to stir-up hate.

* Hamas has intentionally fired rockets at "soft targets" in Israel and has celebrated when it hit high population areas, preschools, etc.

* Hamas' "truce" is widely believed to be offered in bad-faith, with the intention to use any talks to rearm, fortify, and prosecute a terror campaign against Israel.

* Israel has seen a dramatic decrease in rocket attacks and suicide bombings since Gaza was cut off.

* The political will in Israel is currently very hard-line, so any politician that is seen as "soft of Hamas" risks losing their job.

* Israel is in a position of strength and doesn't currently stand to gain from any truce. Israel only risks losing from accepting a truce from Hamas.

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The incentive to do so is to exhaust peaceful methods of ending the conflict before you start slaughtering people. I believe that is one of the principles of a just war.

Yeah, Hamas *may* violate the ceasefire. So what? Israel has nothing to lose by accepting the ceasefire. Either Hamas will violate the ceasefire, handing Israel a PR victory then allowing them to resume the blockade and resume the killing of civilians. Or else there will be a ceasefire. Either way nothing to lose. If Israel are serious about peace this is the only game in town. Hamas and other terror groups are not going to quietly acquiesce while the Israeli occupation continues. To ask for that is a ridiculous pre-condition of a ceasefire.

Until Hamas somehow shows that its changed its ways Israel isn't going to allow them to acquire any resources that could be used militarily. Unfortunately, this has plunged Gaza and its citizens into deep poverty. Overall Israel doesn't care. Its political leaders and citizens currently see the situation as a trade off between Israeli lives and Gazan lives.

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If 43 years of Israeli occupation have taught us anything its that neither side are just going to "change their ways". The only way there can be a peaceful solution is if Israel ends the occupation, then withdraws its troops to what everyone on the planet (except Israel) recognizes as the only basis for a settlement - the 1967 borders. This is the starting point for a settlement, not Israel's ridiculous demand that every Palestinian should give up violent resistance. Note here that Israel could have saved itself all this trouble in the first place if her troops had retreated to her own border in 1967 and hadn't tried to occupy what wasn't theirs.

They're making the responsible choice, albeit an unpalatable one. For who could risk the lives of their own family for another? What state would chose the lives of foreign nationals over its own citizens?

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I might agree with you if it were true that Gazans were foreign nationals, but they are not. They are not nationals of any state. As civilians under occupation they are defined under the fourth Geneva convention as "protected persons" which means Israel has responsibility for their welfare - to provide medical supplies, food, shelter and so on. The Geneva convention also specifically prohibits the type of collective punishment you endorse as a "responsible choice".

The way I heard it shots were fired AFTER the crew started to attack the soldiers en mass. I believe the situation is still under investigation though.

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Lets review the facts. A group of unarmed activists taking aid to starving people were illegally boarded in international waters by a gang of heavily armed goons wearing ski masks. The activists tried to defend themselves by using anything that came to hand - bricks, bottles, iron bars etc. The attackers responded with a volley of live ammunition which left 9 activists dead. None of the attackers were killed. Autopsies show 8 of the 9 dead had multiple entry wounds, many had been shot in the head at close range including one who was killed execution style with two shots to the back of the head. Others were shot in the back or in the back of the head indicating they were not killed as part of a struggle but were actually trying to get away.

Easy to say when you live in a country not being bombed and targeted by people wanting to wipe you off the face of the planet. Egypt and Israel have both blocked out Palestinian territory because whenever they allow more freedoms they get burned. If the Palestinians want peace, they need to clean up their act, its simple as that.

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There's the attitude problem at the heart of the seige and blockade.

"The Palestinians" being starved by the thousands are not "the Palestinians"
who were launching rockets. To say so and use it as an excuse for armed
violence is racism in support of genocide, plain, pure and simple.

I guess the silver lining in all of this is the fact that the focus has shifted away from the war in Iraq. With everyone tired of that particular political mess, this latest new and refreshing political mess is a welcome change for a number of people.

The way I heard it shots were fired AFTER the crew started to attack the soldiers en mass. I believe the situation is still under investigation though.

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You'll have to admit at this point that the way you heard it was
controlled by a well-polished and professional spin-control branch
of the IDF. As for any investigations, you had better forget about
any "official" investigation by Israel or the IDF because they have
been proven many times to be nothing more than papering over the
cracks and making sure that all involved keep their mouths shut.

Since they probably won't let anybody else investigate again it will take
months or years for the U.N. or the ICRC to put together a proper report.

You're not really clear on this whole "nation-state" idea are you...

Let me break it down: When a people vote in a government that government's actions are seen as approved by the electorate. If that government engages in acts of war against another nation-state then it is seen as an act approved by the majority of the citizens of the state. Now this can be mitigated if the electorate are seen to protest the decision, but I have yet to see Gazan protest of any scale against Hamas' actions.

This is the problem. The citizens of Israel see the election of Hamas by the Gazans as an approval of Hamas' actions against Israel. Although really it was more likely the Gazans were just giving the collective finger to Fatah who they found corrupt and lazy.

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You're not really clear on the actual facts on the ground, are you?

At the time they voted against Fatah they had no reason to think that
Israel would start carrying out an undeclared and illegal war against
that community. Since then it has been impossible to vote Hamas out
again because any time it starts to look like the situation may settle
down enough for such a thing, Israel does something to provoke violence
again. It serves them well to keep Gaza in Hamas' hands because then
there can be no discussion of any other topic, such as reestablishing
democracy or rehabilitating the non-violent side of Hamas and doing the
same as Ireland did to end the troubles.

Bottom line is Palestinians must be denied the right to vote or hold
citizenship in Israel or create a nation called Palestine because they
outnumber the jewish population. Keeping them inside an artillery range
serves that purpose and is easy and relatively cheap to maintain as long
as Palestinian lives continue to count as less than the cost of a bullet.

Yeah, things were working out real well last time, except for you know...those rockets that were fired into Israel. "Cast Lead" was a response to periodic rocket fire coming from Gaza. WTF dose Israel even gain from this conflict, or "control of the Palestinians?" This conflict only complicates their domestic and international position. Israel has a lot to gain from peace. This is why they made peace with the various Arab nations in the region, and why they established economic ties with Jordan, Egypt, and Turkey.

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Apparently you forgot or were never told that the ceasefire actually did
work. Hamas stopped firing rockets and successfully got the other
factions to observe the ceasefire as well. Thousands of rockets a month
dropped to effectively zero. During that time, eight individual rockets
[size=-2](Go ahead and count. Each got front page headlines by Israeli spin doctors and the mainstream press followed.)[/size]
launched by a few radicals were presented to the press by Israel as a
deadly barrage of defiance while they prepared, as they intended all
along, to launch a massive attack of their own.

Hamas observed the ceasefire while Israel did not and Israel spun up
the few rockets that did fly to justify the huge and disproportionate
massacre that followed. Only after the fact did it become clear that
while Hamas was cooperating, Israel was building up a massive cache of
weapons and special munitions specifically for the planned operation we
now call "Cast Lead". Look up reports of the new DIME munitions and the
sudden massive purchase of phosphorous shells and the convenient timing.
DIME is specifically antipersonnel and lawful use of phosphorous munitions
does not justify one tenth the amount purchased and then used.

The entire conflict with the Palestinians is holding Israel back from greater economic prosperity. The only reason its being prosecuted is because the Israeli citizens feel that any relenting will cause the death of their own people.

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Not true. That's what they keep saying but the reality is that they are
clinging to total control over the land and keeping it on a warlike
footing because they can never maintain that control once the violence
stops and discussions begin.

Take the settlements issue, for example. Everybody knows they are illegal
and even the U.S. is saying so. The solution is to keep beating and
shooting Palestinians so that a few of them will do desperate acts like
suicide bombings and then use those few incidents in propaganda to
justify seizing more land, putting up that fence and pushing Palestinians
farther away bit by bit until they can no longer live in or near
Jerusalem or become a viable opposition party in the Knesset.

Sure, they make a point of tolerating "good" arabs inside their country,
but guess how much of a vote they get?

While the Israeli policy of "collective punishment" - where whole neighborhoods are leveled in response to Hamas attacks - is, IMO, way to heavy handed, its seen as legitimate because Hamas is in de jure control of Gaza.

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Seen as legitimate by who? Take a good look at that group and contrast
that viewpoint by the international laws on war and weapons that were
enacted after WWII and are respected by every militarily powerful and
"responsible" nation since; all except Israel, the U.S and China.

"Seen as legitimate" only works for those who hold the Geneva Conventions
in contempt. The Israeli policy of "collective punishment" was specifically
outlawed as a war crime in response to Nazi atrocities like the Warsaw
Ghetto.

It is still a significant war crime no matter who does it and Israel
does not get a license to act that way just because it happened to them
in the past and not even after seeing the U.S. do the same things in
Iraq. Palestinians, even those in Gaza, are human beings, and don't you
dare forget it because it was the Jews who were in the same predicament a
generation ago that inspired the rest of us to say "never again" and make
laws to prevent it. Our fathers and grandfathers put their lives on the
line for that very reason and anybody who forgets that deserves to go
through it again if they fail to stop it every time it tries to come back.

Don't bother trying to bullshit an old soldier, especially one who has
ancestors who stood for this same reason and prevailed for your sake.

In the case we are discussing here the attack on the flotilla was
against people from all over the world who not only cared a great deal
for this reason, some of them had the medals and scars to prove it.

Personally, between Israel and the Arabs I will always choose Israel butI will never let stand the crimes that even my closest friends may commit,
especially when they involve violence or cruelty. If I did, what was the point
of it all and what kind of man am I to ignore it?

Uh-huh. I recommend a grain of salt about the size and weight used by
cattlemen from my neck of the woods on press releases of that sort from
that source. Links don't make terrorists, only violence fits the definition.

I guess the silver lining in all of this is the fact that the focus has shifted away from the war in Iraq. With everyone tired of that particular political mess, this latest new and refreshing political mess is a welcome change for a number of people.

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Only for those with dirty hands and those who support them by letting it happen.

There is no silver lining on spilled blood. It just won't stick.

Anybody who would walk past such a mess and wish it away is not worth a
good, clean bullet. That aversion and apathy is nothing less than letting
it happen to others, actually consenting to it, and setting yourself up
to let it happen to you and yours. Ask the surviving Germans from the
thirties what they think of that attitude now. Learn from their hindsight.