> think back to the thread where i was posessed by the spirit of Dr.Phil... i have a very good memory sometimes... and other times not.

I know exactly what you're talking about, but you never showed that I did. Unless you're joking, and then I'll shut up.

> no, no, it doesnt mean he wont love you anymore, it just that you have refused that love by refusing to believe in him and his word, he still loves you... duh.

I love you so much that I will give you free will and then send you to Hell forever because you've used it. Alos, I'm omnipotent, so I knew you were going to do that, but it's ok.

05-14-2005

jrahhali

>>I love you so much that I will give you free will and then send you to Hell forever because you've used it

To me, our free will makes sense. Would you rather someone love you by choice or love you because it was their only choice? Would the latter be love at all ( or a decision)?

05-14-2005

Govtcheez

If he knows everything, though, then we have no free will. He knows exactly what choices we'll make, and everyone who's not good enough is destined to go wherever they go as soon as they're born.

05-14-2005

no-one

>I know exactly what you're talking about, but you never showed that I did. Unless you're joking, and then I'll shut up.

yup, i's joking. sorry.

>If he knows everything, though, then we have no free will. He knows exactly what choices we'll make, and everyone who's not good enough is destined to go wherever they go as soon as they're born.
<

no, you still chose to do all those things, just cause he knows before hand doesnt mean he made you do it... and this is a REALLY REALLY confusing in depth issue, when you really get into it... so ima stop here.

05-14-2005

gcn_zelda

You're all absolutely wrong.

Love is a cancerous disease given to all at birth by the government, without the knowledge of the parents.

Birth actually is government controlled, too. You see, at birth, the infant is given a shot containing a large amount of genetically engineered, unfertilized egg if female, and a large amount of genetically engineered sperm if male.

The idea that sperm is created by the male is a fallacy, also spread by the government and instilled into modern science.

On another note:

Unconditional love, in my opinion, is when one tennis team is bound to be shut out by the other team.

05-14-2005

no-one

>Love is a cancerous disease given to all at birth by the government, without the knowledge of the parents.

tell them they missed RobR.

05-14-2005

Thantos

There are two people who are not family members that I love. A small part of me will love them until the day I die. While I do love them the possibility of a relationship is not there and nor do I want there to be one.
So yes I love them unconditionally. If either of them came and asked for my help (or I found out they needed it) I would.

05-14-2005

okinrus

Quote:

If he knows everything, though, then we have no free will.

Only if the future is something already created. If knowledge can be created at certain points in time, then pretty much anything is possible. Our intuitive definuition of free will likely depends on this. The instantanous observance of our choice creates the new knowledge. We don't create, we just choose.

Back to love, unconditional love goes with trust. If you can trust someone completely, then you can love him or her unconditionally. While the hypothetical "what if they do this" is possible, within your trust such a thing isn't possible.

05-14-2005

Glirk Dient

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thantos

There are two people who are not family members that I love. A small part of me will love them until the day I die. While I do love them the possibility of a relationship is not there and nor do I want there to be one.
So yes I love them unconditionally. If either of them came and asked for my help (or I found out they needed it) I would.

What if you found out those people were not your family members and also attempted to kill you and your family? Would you still love them?

05-15-2005

Thantos

A part of me would yes.

05-15-2005

Govtcheez

> Only if the future is something already created.

If god is truly omnipotent, then it has been created.

05-15-2005

okinrus

Quote:

If god is truly omnipotent, then it has been create

It's possible, if God is omnipotent, to create the future, which is basically all the knowledge of future choices we'll make. But if God is omnipotent, he could also create this knowledge at specific points in time, much like we were created.

05-15-2005

Govtcheez

You misunderstood me. Let's make this easy.

Assuming:
God exists
God is all-powerful and all-knowing

This means he knows EXACTLY what everyone will be doing at any time. This also means that when you "decide" to walk down to the store or watch television or whatever, he knew you were going to do that before you did it. Since he's never going to be wrong about it, it means that every single thing any of us will ever do is predetermined, hence, no free will.

It's entirely possible there's a glaring hole in my logic, but I'd love to see someone point it out.

05-15-2005

nickname_changed

Just because he knew you were going to do it doesn't necessarily make it predetermined. I believe there is a loophole in your reasoning.

This is how I see it:
Lets say you put a ball on the top of a roof. The ball could roll east or west. All of a sudden, a bird flies into the west-facing side of the ball and the ball rolls east.

Now, you're smart, and you knew at the moment the bird hit the ball on the west, that it would roll east. You know this because your brain understands this and its logical to you. A snail probably wouldn't have known this was going to happen.

Was the ball predetermined to roll west? Not really, the bird could have come from the east. But at the time the ball was hit, you knew which way it would roll.

Now, the chances are that God, especially an omnipotent one (I'm not saying there is but lets assume there is for now), is a pretty smart guy (or girl). No doubt he uses .NET. Maybe, he has an ability to see and quickly understand the electrical impulses traveling around your brain. Maybe he can see you making a decision in your brain the exact way you can see the bird flying into the ball.

If he can see this, then at the time you made a decision he could see what you were going to do. Thus, when you do it, he knew you were going to. But you could have just as easily made the opposite decision and he would have known that too.

So I don't think an omnipotent being necessarily cancels out the idea of free will.

Also, assuming God is of a higher 'dimension' than us, chances are he can probably walk backwards and forwards in time just as easily as we can walk left or right. So, he could walk forwards in time to see what decision you are going to make before you've actually made it. To us this sounds ludicrous, but to the 2D stickman, walking up and down as well as left and right also sounds pretty stupid.

Edit: That said, is there was an omnipotent being, do you think he'd really care whether you were going to the shops?