Every little bit helps if you can flag the links we find. I think we've become pretty efficient at listing things so you won't have to go looking on craigslist, though of course if you want to take the time for that it would also be welcome.

QuoteWickett
Also the Half Dome permits are allowed to be traded or transferred, just not sold or auctioned. Let's play by the rules, we are trying to get them enforced.

After thinking about this point a bit, I don't find it unreasonable to assume a transaction will almost certainly be a sale on craigslist. If the trade was being done on a board like this one or yosemite.ca.us, I could understand the point fully; at a board for yosemite enthusiasts I think you have the expectation that people are looking to help each other out and not just to profit from the trade. I find that expectation to be wholly unreasonable on craigslist though.

A scalper could pose as a legitimate trader, get permits with more desirable dates, and then sell them for several hundred dollars. Also, scalpers are getting more creative and finding ways of advertising their services implicitly as opposed to explicitly i.e. trades for gift cards, etc. I have no doubt the scalpers will get even more creative in the coming weeks. That's why I'm flagging all of them.

If this guy has all these dates to trade, it's pretty clear he's a scalper. I'll definitely flag trades like this every time I see them.

TOO LATE: got taken down. The post I was referring to was someone trying to trade dates in 3 concurrent weeks for a specific date. While I know there are some people lucky enough to visit yosemite every week, I doubt they would hate the park enough to post their campsites on craigslist.

If this guy has all these dates to trade, it's pretty clear he's a scalper. I'll definitely flag trades like this every time I see them.

TOO LATE: got taken down. The post I was referring to was someone trying to trade dates in 3 concurrent weeks for a specific date. While I know there are some people lucky enough to visit yosemite every week, I doubt they would hate the park enough to post their campsites on craigslist.

I don't think is what is commonly going on. When the August Half Dome Permits were released on May 1 there were individuals who had already missed dates they desired in June/July. In an attempt to have something to trade, these individuals gathered as many August Permits as possible. I suspect the same thing will happen on June 1 when the September permits are released. The permit seekers who did not get their desired dates in August, will scoop up September permits.

I have seen many posts and sites that outline this process with most of the individuals having no intention of scalping the unused permits. While this NPS system is terrible, the traders are not doing anything against the rules.

I've seen this a lot. From what I can tell, people don't get their desired date, so they "grab" what permits they can and try to trade for what they want. There is a website dedicated to permit trading, and many of the requests list multiple permits for days they don't need (usually a weekday) in hopes of trading for ones they need (usually a weekend but not always).

They usually indicate that they are only interesting in trading, not selling, and will release the ones that aren't used or traded. Not the intent of the permit system, but I suppose technically nothing illegal about it. Frustrating for people who truly just want to get a permit through the official website the day they are released though..

I still think that goes against the spirit of the law, if not the letter to snap up as many permits as possible in an attempt to trade. Anyone who does that is forcing lots of people into this scalpers' market.

QuotembearI still think that goes against the spirit of the law, if not the letter to snap up as many permits as possible in an attempt to trade. Anyone who does that is forcing lots of people into this scalpers' market.

I agree about the fee. If someone grabs eight permits for instance, and only uses 4, they are only out $6 if they don't cancel. Scalpers wouldn't mind a loss like that because they made it up with other sales and people hoping for a trade aren't out a significant amount of money.

People would be more likely to cancel what they don't need if it was $10 or $20 for each permit and the loss was more significant. If you didn't use the extra 4 mentioned above, being out $40-80 dollars would make a bigger factor in grabbing extra permits for future trades or scalping (or so I would hope)!

Another simple solution would be to allow people to reserve and pay for the Half Dome permits via recreation.gov, but they'll need to pick up the Half Dome permits, in person, at the Yosemite Wilderness Center within three days of their hike. And they'll need to show a valid ID to the ranger to pick up their permits. This would solve most, if not all, of the scalping issues. And it would also discourage people from trying to trades permits from one date for another.

Well, raise it if the system stays as is. I don't particularly like the current system, but procedures take time to change. Perhaps a temporary fix until a better solution is found, but the current system isn't working (except for people trying to make a profit that is....)

Another simple solution would be to allow people to reserve and pay for the Half Dome permits via recreation.gov, but they'll need to pick up the Half Dome permits, in person, at the Yosemite Wilderness Center within three days of their hike. And they'll need to show a valid ID to the ranger to pick up their permits. This would solve most, if not all, of the scalping issues. And it would also discourage people from trying to trades permits from one date for another.

I think that's a great idea.

They do the same exact thing for Mount Whitney and they have no problems with scalping. Whitney isn't exactly an unpopular hike either. Their permits get sold out for the busy seasons very quickly as well, but all of them being legit. I can't imagine the blackmarket for Mt. Whitney if they had the same idiotic system Yosemite implements.

I speculate almost all of the ads are fake. They probably bait and switch. They say they are for a trade but then request payment. The other party then pays because it's so tempting. Many who respond to these ads are willing to pay anyway and don't care. I'm just flagging every single ad.

Some scalpers are putting willing to trade in their subject lines hoping that they won't be flagged. I saw one that does that and then says wants to purchase in the ad. Another one tries to come off as a swap and then says at the end of the ad willing to pay. Very sneaky. This is why I flag all of them.

P.S. The grand prize winner to sneaky ad of the day goes to "Hald Dome permits, giving away free". The only catch is you have to become a fan of a commercial Facebook page and be a winner of the free permits. The ad is also advertising a trans-Sierra trek to Mt. Whitney. Very clever. Flag!

I can't remember - how does the mt whitney system work? I've only done it when coming from the JMT or HST so haven't had to deal with the permit nightmare. Does Whitney have this problem? I've seen people arrange simultaneous permit switches (both call Inyo NF and cancel then call back and reserve the new open spots) but that only seems to work by doing it the 'legal' way.

I just reserved a permit for Taboose Pass in August, and Inyo NF lets you name an alternate trip leader that is also authorized to pick up the permit, but I'm not sure if that's the way the whitney system works.

Wonder if I can scalp that Taboose permit. *kidding *who would want it anyways *ouch

We need to be more organized and effective on this - Can someone come up with a cookbook response to recreation.gov that we can send as a comment/complaint/observation/whatever that way we can all cut and paste it and send it separately from the many that use this forum - I think if we request that the reservations be made non-transferable, include at least three additional fields for alternate names in case the first party cannot be there, and request that they use the code/name that's all fuzzy when logging in that an application would not be able to get pass -

This way we can go directly to the source rather than keep on flagging craigslist (sometimes I feel like the little dutchboy flagging these things)

Maybe we can also come up with a cookbook response to craigslist that we can send them regarding people that are looking for campsites/permits as well - If we get their attention maybe they will do something about it

QuoteSoCalCPA
We need to be more organized and effective on this - Can someone come up with a cookbook response to recreation.gov that we can send as a comment/complaint/observation/whatever that way we can all cut and paste it and send it separately from the many that use this forum - I think if we request that the reservations be made non-transferable, include at least three additional fields for alternate names in case the first party cannot be there, and request that they use the code/name that's all fuzzy when logging in that an application would not be able to get pass -

This way we can go directly to the source rather than keep on flagging craigslist (sometimes I feel like the little dutchboy flagging these things)

Maybe we can also come up with a cookbook response to craigslist that we can send them regarding people that are looking for campsites/permits as well - If we get their attention maybe they will do something about it

Worth a try? - What do you think?

I think recreation.gov is simply a driving vehicle for various national parks.Similar to how you buy event or sporting tickets on ticketmaster.

Yosemite makes it's own decision on how to sell permits and recreation.gov simply provides the access.

Craigslist is notorious for being stubborn in regards to altering or changing their entire blueprint. They were still huffing and puffing after they were forced to remove the "adult services" tab, so I think they can care less about a handful of people sending in complaint letters regarding campsites and half dome permits.

As an experiment I took a link and went through a bunch different proxies to ensure a different IP Address for each report, and it seemed to be about 50 reports needed. No way it's worth the time to go through 50 proxies for each link though.

There's a new tack the scalpers are using. It's the phony public service announcement. It sounds like a nice person wants to inform everyone what's going on. Then on the bottom it says half dome permits or something similar.

Also, please don't fall for the trade pitch. One I saw says "trade only" and gives a seemingly legit reason i.e. wedding but then says "interested in any amount of permits you may have". Completely bogus. Obviously a scalper. So please flag them all.

There are some ads that let people know the cables aren't up. Trouble is they then say yosemite half dome permits on the bottom of the ad. I think these are scalper ads in disguise. The scalpers hope they won't be flagged. People will respond. Then the scalper can say yeah it's closed this weekend. I have some permits for next weekend to sell you, etc. Some people will just reply and offer to buy permits for later on. I am going to keep flagging them regardless of what they say.

Just curious---what is the reasoning for flagging this one:I am looking for 2 or 3 permits to hike Half Dome on June 10, 11, or 12. I already have my campsite, but I missed the date to reserve the permits, and my kids would really like to do the hike for the first time. If anyone has any extras, I would appreciate it. I don't have anything to trade, nor ami I willing to reimburse you for any more than the $1.50/permit fee charged by the NPS as selling of the permits is prohibited. Please do not contact me if you are a scalper. Thank you!

Is this the kind of post you have referred to where they are editing it after the fact making it clear the intentions are not as innoncent as the above post seems?

My reasoning is that craigslist is a forum for selling things, and not a place where you're likely to have hikers looking out for and helping each other for altruistic reasons. I don't especially love the idea of flagging buyers, but recognize it as necessary to get all these middlemen who add no utility out from in between hikers/campers and the NPS.

Quotembear
My reasoning is that craigslist is a forum for selling things, and not a place where you're likely to have hikers looking out for and helping each other for altruistic reasons. I don't especially love the idea of flagging buyers, but recognize it as necessary to get all these middlemen who add no utility out from in between hikers/campers and the NPS.

Certain political elements in our society undoubtedly would refer to them as "businessmen."

It's not exactly hard to game these kind of automated permit systems. Back in school I used to write similar programs to enroll in full classes. I'm sure the school uses a CAPTCHA now to kill that though, lol.

Quotembear
My reasoning is that craigslist is a forum for selling things, and not a place where you're likely to have hikers looking out for and helping each other for altruistic reasons. I don't especially love the idea of flagging buyers, but recognize it as necessary to get all these middlemen who add no utility out from in between hikers/campers and the NPS.

Well - I wouldn't necessarily categorize CL as a place only for selling things. It's an electronic classified ads system. They've got many categories that are more than simply about selling items or services. They've also got some pretty extensive discussion forums. They include a housing swap section too. Perhaps most people aren't thinking truly altruistically when posting to Craigslist. It's a tricky situation.

I've actually had tickets that I've obtained free/cheap and gave them away on a discussion board to the first people to contact me. Perhaps that colors my thinking.

I have some very dear friends that I've met on the discussion forums. And I've used the selling part to get rid of furniture and other tickets (not scalping). On the whole, it's a great site, and I've been a fan for 12+ years. Craig is a nice guy, and the business seems to be well-run. It's really a small operation. Most things are automated, like the flagging. It's pretty much user-controlled.