Bernard,You might check out this person and this group.On dna-forums under "For R1b-L21+ Folks: What is your DYS 464x?", the following guy said he was L69.4+. He is contemplating a 464x test.

143742 / 5729F - McGuire - Ireland N., Co. Fermanuagh, Enniskillen

He fits into the 11-13 Combo group as what I call 11-13 A-2-M. I think they are a pretty strong cluster. I don't think their haplotype looks anything like yours and I am going on McGuire's post as far as his L69.4 status, but here is the cluster.

I have received this morning an email from thomas Krahn. He told me than 3 new guys were tested L69+. Two of them belong to L21+ project: Mulholland and Mac Guire. I have asked them to order the DYS464X test, because as you know the two first L69+: Durall and me have a 4c configuration at DYS464X. I have compared their haplotypes with mine but there are not very close... Moreover Durall and me are of french origine, but Mulholland and Mac Guire are or Irish origine. So I don't know very well what to think about this.

Bernard,You might check out this person and this group.On dna-forums under "For R1b-L21+ Folks: What is your DYS 464x?", the following guy said he was L69.4+. He is contemplating a 464x test.

143742 / 5729F - McGuire - Ireland N., Co. Fermanuagh, Enniskillen

He fits into the 11-13 Combo group as what I call 11-13 A-2-M. I think they are a pretty strong cluster. I don't think their haplotype looks anything like yours and I am going on McGuire's post as far as his L69.4 status, but here is the cluster.

I have received this morning an email from thomas Krahn. He told me than 3 new guys were tested L69+. Two of them belong to L21+ project: Mulholland and Mac Guire. I have asked them to order the DYS464X test, because as you know the two first L69+: Durall and me have a 4c configuration at DYS464X. I have compared their haplotypes with mine but there are not very close... Moreover Durall and me are of french origine, but Mulholland and Mac Guire are or Irish origine. So I don't know very well what to think about this.

Is Durall confirmed L69.4?

Since the difference in you haplotypes is so great and we haven't found that much L69.4+, it may very well be L69.4 and L69.5, parallel mutations.

However, the folklore of some of the guys in the list above is not of "Old Irish" origin. They may have come to Ireland and England in an historic timeframe. The MRCA of the above group is only c. 1400-1600 AD.

Since the difference in you haplotypes is so great and we haven't found that much L69.4+, it may very well be L69.4 and L69.5, parallel mutations.

However, the folklore of some of the guys in the list above is not of "Old Irish" origin. They may have come to Ireland and England in an historic timeframe. The MRCA of the above group is only c. 1400-1600 AD.

Yes Durall is confirmed L69+ at 23andME. I don't think the difference in Durall's haplotype and mine is so great. Vince Tilroe told that, according to McGee's utility, TMRCA is about 50-75 generations. So the MRCA lived about during Roman times.

Another point interessant is that Durall and me have both a 4c configuration at DYS464X. I think it is not a coincidence, and it is a proof that our haplotypes are close.

It is very interesting that you think that the combo 11-13 guys are not of old Irish origine and they may be came in Irlande from continent in historic times.

Since the difference in you haplotypes is so great and we haven't found that much L69.4+, it may very well be L69.4 and L69.5, parallel mutations.

However, the folklore of some of the guys in the list above is not of "Old Irish" origin. They may have come to Ireland and England in an historic timeframe. The MRCA of the above group is only c. 1400-1600 AD.

Yes Durall is confirmed L69+ at 23andME. I don't think the difference in Durall's haplotype and mine is so great. Vince Tilroe told that, according to McGee's utility, TMRCA is about 50-75 generations. So the MRCA lived about during Roman times.

Another point interessant is that Durall and me have both a 4c configuration at DYS464X. I think it is not a coincidence, and it is a proof that our haplotypes are close.

It is very interesting that you think that the combo 11-13 guys are not of old Irish origine and they may be came in Irlande from continent in historic times.

What I meant is that L69+ McGuire's haploype cluster is fairly close knit but they are quite a distance from you.

There is a lot of folklore in the 11-13 Combo group about connections to the Normans and there various groups. None that I can see is proven, but it is either a popular folklore, or things actually line up. One of the guys in the McGuire cluster, Belcher, has the following folklore... as in "de Belcher." The "Belchers of England." http://tiny.cc/ik4Od

By the way, only McGuire's cluster within 11-13 seems to be possibly L69+. The other 11-13 clusters seem to be all negative downstream except the Vance/Ferguson's which appear to be L193+. Of course, the 11-13 combo group might not be a true clade, just a set of clusters.

For information about 11-13 folklore keep reading....--------------------------------------------------------------------------------This is not in McGuire's cluster but another subset of 11-13. The Massey/Massie/Mascy folklore goes back to "Hamon de Massey." http://tiny.cc/vEHz4

This is also not in McGuire's cluster, but another subset of 11-13 that seems to be close brother to the Massey's is the Rose/Ross bunch. They have a folklore that includes going back to "de Roos" or "de Ros." http://tiny.cc/veXF4

This is yet another subset of 11-13, the Vance/Ferguson group. The Vance side of it has spellings that include Vance/Vans/Vaus which is supposed to have French Norman origin according to their folklore.

The whole notion of "Old Irish" is something I discovered in my own family research. Since Walsh is a very common Irish name I always assumed I was some kind of "Old" Gaelic Irish. I was just getting to be proud of it, when a cousin shared a 90 year-old genealogy book about our family. The book differentiated between the "Old Irish" and what our Walsh's (claimed they) were. They thought of themselves as Anglo-Normans but it was what we now would call Cambro-Normans, or Welsh-Normans. I thought that meant I was Welsh, but a few of my closest Genetic Distances (besides a Morgan and Evans of Wales) include a Swede with 400 years of Swedish genealogy. I also found a Barrett in my little cluster who has an old poem that says Barret's and Walsh's were Cambro-Norman descendants of the "Lords of Glamorgan." The Barrett's think we have an old Norman ancestor named "Barratt." I don't know. My Walsh folklore is clear on who the "mother of the (our) Walsh's" is, but who is the father? A researcher thinks it is a so-called NPE of Flemish or Norman origin.

Anyway, the net is the Irish are not a single population, but also a wide mix of people, even, I think, under the L21* banner.

Bernard,You might check out this person and this group.On dna-forums under "For R1b-L21+ Folks: What is your DYS 464x?", the following guy said he was L69.4+. He is contemplating a 464x test.

143742 / 5729F - McGuire - Ireland N., Co. Fermanuagh, Enniskillen

He fits into the 11-13 Combo group as what I call 11-13 A-2-M. I think they are a pretty strong cluster. I don't think their haplotype looks anything like yours and I am going on McGuire's post as far as his L69.4 status, but here is the cluster.

I have received this morning an email from thomas Krahn. He told me than 3 new guys were tested L69+. Two of them belong to L21+ project: Mulholland and Mac Guire. I have asked them to order the DYS464X test, because as you know the two first L69+: Durall and me have a 4c configuration at DYS464X. I have compared their haplotypes with mine but there are not very close... Moreover Durall and me are of french origine, but Mulholland and Mac Guire are or Irish origine. So I don't know very well what to think about this.

Bernard,The McGuire group has a question about L69. ---->If it is less stable than other mutations, does that ever mean that it mightmutate back? I understand that 'less stable' means that this mutation might have happened more than once, but could it ever mutate back -- essentially disappear from a line, or even disappear and reappear?

Bernard,The McGuire group has a question about L69. ---->If it is less stable than other mutations, does that ever mean that it mightmutate back? I understand that 'less stable' means that this mutation might have happened more than once, but could it ever mutate back -- essentially disappear from a line, or even disappear and reappear?

Yes, I guess that L69 can mutate back. A back mutation of L69 is equivalent to a L159 mutation. So if a person has a L69 mutation then a L159 mutation, it is equivalent for him to have no mutation. A L69 mutation is a deletion of GG, and a L159 mutation is an insertion of GG in the same place.