The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.

The control in the cultic system is so strong that people report they have been affected for years afterwards. It is for this reason that the WITHDRAWAL STAGES should be well understood by everyone.

STAGE ONE:

This often begins almost immediately after acknowledging something is wrong. The mind and will may be completely taken over by the logic presented by the members and leaders. However, the gut feeling, emotions, or conscience often indicates that something is not quite right.

STAGE TWO:

This doubt causes a feeling of guilt which the person attempts to stuff and deny. The guilt drives him or her to deeper resolve to "do right" or submit and to ignore any information that conflicts with the leaders' message. However, the conscience continues to exert itself causing the person to question things. Most people don't know what to question. They may question the "standards", the existence of God or the truth of the scripture. They rarely have enough wisdom to question the history or the doctrine of the group.

STAGE THREE:

The person will give lip service to the group but in reality often behaves or does things that are against the rules. This causes even more guilt and more resolve to "get right."

STAGE FOUR:

If the person is observant and alert, he or she may notice some discrepancies between what the scripture says and what is done within the group. Or he may hear of a scandal or problem that bothers him. This may worry some people but many others just think, "Oh, well, the people aren't perfect but the WAY [or "God's government"] is perfect." Or "Oh well, what can I do?" or "Oh well, God will take care of it."

STAGE FIVE:

The person may hear of the history of the church and begin to wonder why he was lied to regarding the founder of the group. An inquisitive person may begin an investigation. At this point, the person usually becomes very quiet and fearful about letting others know of his questions. By this time he has found out that it is socially unacceptable to voice any doubts.

STAGE SIX:

The denial stage in which the person decides to ignore all the warning signs. They are actually afraid of or angry at anyone who has information that exposes the deceit of the organization. Some people NEVER get past this stage. They are hostile towards any information that spotlights the deceit and errors of the group.

STAGE SEVEN:

The "Don't know what to think" stage. MANY people get stuck here. They will try to figure things out on their own. They are suspicious of everyone. They don't trust the friends or ministers and they don't trust themselves. They don't trust traditional Christianity. They don't trust the information that exposes the group. They may not trust the scripture and might try to find reasons to believe the Bible wasn't translated correctly. This stage is very critical. The stress of it can cause illness, anxiety, nightmares, emotional problems, marital problems, divorce, and destructive accidents because of so much mental preoccupation, suicide [suicidal feelings], hostility and anger. Some report a problem with nausea, clenched teeth or other outward signs of tension. This stage is extremely painful and frightening. Usually the longer a person or his family has been in the group, the more painful it is. At this stage, some people try to reason with the leaders. They will either arrange for visits or write long agonizing letters. Some hope that they can change the system or get some members to agree with them. They are AMAZED at the total inability of the members to hear what they are saying. However, some members will agree with their arguments, pat them on the head and try to smooth their ruffled feelings.

STAGE EIGHT:

The state in which a decision is made to leave the group. The person may go in several directions. They may become angry at God, or become an agnostic or atheist. They may try to start their own spiritual quest or church in the home. They may reach out to secular psychology for relief. Or, they may hook into another cult. They may decide to just let the spiritual part of their life hang in mid-air for awhile. Some people get stuck in a yo-yo syndrome: they will leave the group, go back to the group, leave, go back, leave and go back. They rarely ever figure out what the group believes or even what they believe. Or, they may become born again as a result of doing some intense praying, in-depth study and reaching out to normal Christian information. This stage is extremely crucial. If a married couple doesn't agree or reach this stage together it can destroy their marriage. Almost total rejection from the group and family inside occurs if the person announces his new allegiance to Christ instead of to the cultic system.

STAGE NINE:

The state in which the old personality disintegrates and a new one is formed. The person will get rid of old clothes, old hairstyles, old possessions. Some people experience a lot of anxiety in adjusting to a new identity because their whole self concept was so closely tied to the group attitude towards themselves. New interests, charitable activities and hobbies are found. Bible study and Bible classes become the new excitement if one has been born again. The person rejoices at every new day and has a sense of peace. The world looks beautiful, people seem wonderful, nature seems to glow with the power and beauty of God. If a satisfactory church is found the person finds a great deal of happiness.

STAGE TEN:

The person is in constant amazement at the difference between the old life and the new life. The person is able to pity those who are still in the old group and will eventually be able to laugh about his old experiences. The person will often want to reach out to others whom he has known while in the group. He feels a strong need to talk about the experience in order to understand the strong emotions and confusion he felt while inside the group. Talking to other ex-members seems to be the best therapy for those going through this process. Writing down what one has heard, experienced and believes [is also very helpful].

~Adapted from an article originally posted by the late Jan Groenveld of Cult Awareness Center in Australia. [Words in brackets inserted by Exit & Support Network™]

I'm personally at stage eight. The missus however is at stage one. She is mostly unaware of my inner turmoil but knows I visit this forum and it doesn't sit well with her. I avoid reasoning with her though, I tend to get carried away and later feel guilty for my insolent behavior. I'm in the process of learning more about the religion as a whole so I can raise the level of my argument.

you do not have to wait. the imam of all imams is wide awake and alive . Believe in moula Ali. Imams that followed right from Imam Zainul abedeen had many firqas. Today some believe in the 7th imam, some believe in the arrival of the 12th. Imam Mehdi , some believe in the arrival of the 21st. imam Tayeb and some say the imamat is carried on to the hazar imam the 54th. imam of the khojas and even there some are khoja shia ishna shari. Some Imams and their sons have also gone astray yet the common man has started new firqas and followed persons who were really not ordained to be imam. your Imam of Imams is alive and will come to your call. All you have to do is ask.

I created this account to just thank the members of this forum who have (by the will of Allah) led me to the truth. The journey started about a year back, reading articles and discussions over here, it's really been an eye opener !! The tyrant leadership and brain-dead followers need dawah just like the kafir. Please never stop giving dawah and always remember its Allah(swt) who changes hearts. Alhamdulillah for Islam. (btw side note - the first time I said Alhamdulillah in my household, people gave weird looks, and one comment was hilarious - its an Arab word

When I see my bohra brethren become wanderers, refugees and visitors to other communities, masjid and gathering places, I feel very sad because all these anguish has been caused by our dai's, the so called spiritual leader who would bring us to the imam when he returns as imam. What face will they have if that were to happen. They have made us misqueens and shamed us in the eyes of others when these others see us as refugees fleeing from the oppression of our dai's and their Kothar.

When I see my bohra brethren become wanderers, refugees and visitors to other communities, masjid and gathering places, I feel very sad because all these anguish has been caused by our dai's, the so called spiritual leader who would bring us to the imam when he returns as imam. What face will they have if that were to happen. They have made us misqueens and shamed us in the eyes of others when these others see us as refugees fleeing from the oppression of our dai's and their Kothar.

The job of a sheep is to be present when his Master commands him, either for shearing or for slaughter. Sheep don't complain. Best if you accept your new found position as a sheep of your new Master, Mr. Muffy, book your tickets to chop-chop the women in your life, and open up your pockets so Muffy and his Kothari Mafia can steal to their hearts delight. Go on, little sheep. Run to your Master.

I am writing as many times I do only because I reflect and my conscious or conscience guides me. I was educated by a founding father of PDB who did not agree with the authority or the corrupt regime of the dais. And I also know that there were many like me who got educated by the founding fathers of PDB. It takes money to educate us and if these PDB did not put forward that money we would not have been educated. Education provides us the money to makes elevated in this world. And many of us became sheikhs and earned status in the world of these dais. But education also made us understand that jaman was not enough to make us progress and prosper. When we learn about Islam from the you tube and the Islamic scholars we recognize that we have failed to make our lives what the founding fathers sacrificed their money to make us be. Even though we recognize that our education would or should have made us better Muslims we have succumb to the glory that our money has made us be and because of the manipulations that our dai's have made on our brains. Yet we continue to believe that on the day of judgement Allah will not question us on why we acted stupid even when we gained the education that the founding fathers of PDB provided us. Why we are so selfish even after we get so much from those who want us to be self less. Boggles my small mind.

I am writing as many times I do only because I reflect and my conscious or conscience guides me. I was educated by a founding father of PDB who did not agree with the authority or the corrupt regime of the dais. And I also know that there were many like me who got educated by the founding fathers of PDB. It takes money to educate us and if these PDB did not put forward that money we would not have been educated. Education provides us the money to makes elevated in this world. And many of us became sheikhs and earned status in the world of these dais. But education also made us understand that jaman was not enough to make us progress and prosper. When we learn about Islam from the you tube and the Islamic scholars we recognize that we have failed to make our lives what the founding fathers sacrificed their money to make us be. Even though we recognize that our education would or should have made us better Muslims we have succumb to the glory that our money has made us be and because of the manipulations that our dai's have made on our brains. Yet we continue to believe that on the day of judgement Allah will not question us on why we acted stupid even when we gained the education that the founding fathers of PDB provided us. Why we are so selfish even after we get so much from those who want us to be self less. Boggles my small mind.

regarding the highlighted statement above: I don't think many people here believe that. If I had to guess, many people here believe that we will have to answer to Allah for our actions (or lack thereof).

On a separate note, the above post, my post, and several other such posts should be moved from this topic to a relevant topic.

I created this account to just thank the members of this forum who have (by the will of Allah) led me to the truth. The journey started about a year back, reading articles and discussions over here, it's really been an eye opener !! The tyrant leadership and brain-dead followers need dawah just like the kafir. Please never stop giving dawah and always remember its Allah(swt) who changes hearts. Alhamdulillah for Islam. (btw side note - the first time I said Alhamdulillah in my household, people gave weird looks, and one comment was hilarious - its an Arab word

JazakAllah Khair

Alhamdolillah is an Arabic word. What's wrong in what they said? Indian Muslims used a bit of Hindi/Urdu/Persian mix not Arabic. It's changing now and it's true of the Bohra community too.

Your use of word Kafir is obviously in a derogatory sense. In fact the reason for strife in the world both within the Islamic world and between the Islamic world and non Islamic world.

I am writing as many times I do only because I reflect and my conscious or conscience guides me. I was educated by a founding father of PDB who did not agree with the authority or the corrupt regime of the dais. And I also know that there were many like me who got educated by the founding fathers of PDB. It takes money to educate us and if these PDB did not put forward that money we would not have been educated. Education provides us the money to makes elevated in this world. And many of us became sheikhs and earned status in the world of these dais. But education also made us understand that jaman was not enough to make us progress and prosper. When we learn about Islam from the you tube and the Islamic scholars we recognize that we have failed to make our lives what the founding fathers sacrificed their money to make us be. Even though we recognize that our education would or should have made us better Muslims we have succumb to the glory that our money has made us be and because of the manipulations that our dai's have made on our brains. Yet we continue to believe that on the day of judgement Allah will not question us on why we acted stupid even when we gained the education that the founding fathers of PDB provided us. Why we are so selfish even after we get so much from those who want us to be self less. Boggles my small mind.

What makes you think my Agnosticindian friend, I am not getting on with life. Whether you accept it or not, life keeps on "getting on" and you will wake up one day old and decrepit, (hopefully) and realize that your two cents of advise was useless to me or to yourself.

The backward classes and poor were left out of the prosperity ushered in by the Green Revolution.
The need for a support system and to be part of a larger community was felt.
It is this vacuum that deras like Sacha Sauda filled.
They made the poor feel secure, cared for, loved, provided a support system and gave them dignity

The violence and deaths that followed Gurmeet Ram Rahim's arrest were unfortunate. My heart goes out to the poor who lost their near and dear ones and those who were injured in the violence.

The question one has heard asked over the weekend is how and why a convicted rapist like Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh, a Jat Sikh, has amassed such a huge following.

The honest answer, however, must start with British rule.

The British were grateful to the Sikh princes for assistance received during the 1857 mutiny, and seeing the bravery of the Sikh armies realised they could be an effective buffer between Afghanistan and India.

They replaced Bengali soldiers with loyal Sikhs and Punjabi Muslims, but insisted that only those Sikhs who sported the five Ks, or symbols of Sikhism, could join the army.

Since it was mainly Jat Sikhs who sported the five Ks then, they were the biggest beneficiaries.

The Jats were classified as traditional agriculturists and came to dominate the ownership of land as well.

The other dominant community, Khatris or Kshatriyas, took to education and business. They had also been landholders till the Punjab Land Alienation Act of 1900 forbade them to do so as they were declared a 'non-agricultural' tribe.

Many families got around this artificially imposed caste barrier by raising one or more son as a Sikh, chiefly by having them adopt the name Singh and grow hair/beard to match.

British policy supported forces that divided Punjab into Hindu and Sikh (external link).

Their objective was met with the passage of the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabhandak Committee Act in 1925, which resulted in the Akalis having control over gurdwaras in Punjab, and heralded the irrevocable tradition of mixing religion and politics in Punjab.

It also made Jat Sikhs a powerful community.

Backward classes were declared a non-agricultural caste. Thus, they could not own land and had to work as farm labour.

Punjab and Haryana became states in 1966.

Power invariably alternated between the Akalis and Congress in Punjab. However, irrespective of the party, Jats ruled Punjab.

In spite of backward classes believed to constitute over 30 per cent of the state's population, Jats were the dominant political class.

The Green Revolution of the late 1960s benefited Jats the most as they were the dominant agricultural caste.

In the prosperity that followed, the backward classes and poor were left out.

To add to their woes was the insecurities caused by the extremely violent Khalistan movement of the 1980s.

Deras existed earlier too, but the external environment increased the insecurity. The need for a support system and to be part of a larger community was felt.

It is this vacuum that deras like Sacha Sauda filled.

They made the poor feel secure, cared for, loved, provided a support system and gave them dignity.

Put yourself in the shoes of a poor devotee.

It is natural for the poor to seek the blessings of the guru who helps them.

Remember, it is in the DNA of Indians to consciously surrender to a person who they call their guru.

Why does Dera Sacha Sauda have such a huge following?

According to an August 24, 2017 report in Chandigarh's Tribune newspaper, the reasons are four-fold (external link).

One, identities of caste and religion cease to exist in the dera.

Two, the humble ranking of dera management. A state is divided into zones, with each zone headed by a man called Bhangi Das.

Three, subsidised food and free rations.

Four, many districts close to Sirsa in Haryana are plagued by knee problems and cancer due to bad quality of water. The dera provided free treatment.2

Remember, Indian religions are not organised and rigid, but amorphous. So people across the country have always flocked to sants in their region.

Within a common spiritual framework, the guru's organisations provided spiritual and emotional support to its followers.

According to a scholar and long-time resident of Jalandhar, "Deras have done outstanding work in social, educational, medical and spiritual fields. The quantum of work done in the last 20 years far exceeds that of religious organisations."

Also, members of a dera become part of a larger community network. It helps them in business dealings, social engagements and even in finding life partners.

Conservative Sikhs oppose deras for many reasons. A person going to a dera invariably does not visit a gurdwara.

Two, there is a financial angle. The money and food-grain that would be donated to a langar at gurdwaras now goes to the dera.

While the orthodox believe in the Guru Granth Sahib as the guru, the deras focus on a personal guru without denying, in any way, the importance of scriptures.

Tension between conservative Sikhs and backward class deras resulted in the murder of Guru Sant Rama Nand in Vienna in 2009.

He belonged to the Dera Sach Khand, inspired by the 15th century spiritual leader Ravidas whose followers belong to the backward classes.

Thousands of followers went on a rampage (external link) in Punjab after the murder.

Sacha Sauda is not the only dera opposed by conservative Sikhs. Radhasoamis are also opposed because they too believe in a personal guru, and ask disciples to do simran of panj nam (five names) which they keep a secret.

They rely on the bani (word) of the Guru Granth Sahib (as also that of Saar Bachan) in satsang, but do not follow the way of devotion observed in gurdwaras.

However, whatever may be the history, violence by the followers of the Dera Sacha Sauda must be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

But, for a lasting solution, we must understand why devotees are willing to lay down their lives for their guru, rather than seeing the violence through the urban English-speaking prism.

It is debatable if the police would have fired on protestors if they were residents of south Mumbai/Delhi, sectors 2 to 11 of Chandigarh, or students of JNU.

Remember, when a rally to protest the violence against Myanmar's Rohingyas at Mumbai's Azad Maidan turned violent on August 11, 2012, in which vehicles and broadcast vans were torched, policewomen were molested, and weapons were snatched from the police, the state government of the day did not allow the police to open fire on the violent rioters.

This is what former Mumbai police commissioner Julio Ribeiro had to say about the incident (external link).

Now let us look at the political aspects of the dera.

As India liberalised and with the advent of the cell phone, the new generation of backward classes felt confident enough to break free from the Jat-dominated politics of Punjab and Haryana.

Five years later, Captain Amarinder Singh again sought the baba's 'blessings'.

The Bharatiya Janata Party, a late comer in Haryana's political game, too adopted the same strategy.

So every political party has wooed the Jat Sikh Baba.

The mixture of religion with politics, which started with the passing of the SGPC Act in 1925, continues to this day.

In fact, Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh was provided Z-plus security by the United Progressive Alliance government.

Note that it was competitive vote-bank politics between the Akalis and the Congress that gave rise to Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and a major reason for the terrorism that engulfed Punjab in the 1980s.

Having realised the power of their votes, the poor wanted to break the Jat hegemony over politics.

They tasted blood in Haryana when the BJP appointed M L Khattar -- a non-Jat -- as chief minister.

Unable to deal with loss of power, some hit back through the violent Jat agitation in Haryana.

The Congress in Punjab and the SGPC dislike the Dera Sacha Sauda for various reasons.

One, the Dera supported the BJP-Akali combine in the last assembly election.

Two, in a caste-ridden Punjabi society, 'dera life provides an equal status to all castes'.

Three, the dera unites Hindus and Sikhs, something that conservative Sikhs are against.

Prem Insaan, a resident of Bathinda, said, "Different communities and castes have their own temples and gurdwaras in Punjab and Haryana, but at our dera all are equal."

"The dera advocates humanity. We may be Hindu, Sikh or anything else, but we have failed to end caste divisions in society."

During the recent violence Captain Amarinder Singh has presented himself as an able administrator in comparison to Haryana's Khattar.

Breaking the back of this dera would please the SGPC and conservative Sikhs no end.

Recent events have to be viewed against this backdrop.

The Congress is working to a plan. It desperately wants to win back Haryana, a state where land is highly valued.

After the BJP outsourced Punjab to the Akalis, its supporters had no option but to vote for the Congress.

Unless the BJP becomes active in Punjab and has a chief minister in Haryana who understands that religion and power are intertwined in Punjab and Haryana and finds a way to counter the Jats, the Congress will return to power in 2019.

The affluent classes and political parties must bring the backward classes into the mainstream.

Seriously doubt if dukaan loving bohri's would resort to any such violation. They are timid peace loving and money counting people. If such were to happen they would find an angle to twist it around as a mozeja. "Moula ne bachave lida , moula jail ma chala gaya"