MRandall25 wrote:The US military certainly has bombed civilian areas to get military structures. No clue what you're trying to say there. Remember WWII? Hell, they even do it now with unmanned drone strikes.

Don't bring WWII to it. We're talking in this new era we live in. But you actually have a point with the drones.

MRandall25 wrote:The US military certainly has bombed civilian areas to get military structures. No clue what you're trying to say there. Remember WWII? Hell, they even do it now with unmanned drone strikes.

Don't bring WWII to it. We're talking in this new era we live in. But you actually have a point with the drones. :thumb:

You did say "Would the US ever bomb civilian areas to get military...". I was merely giving you 1 such example, and probably could've provided 20 more.

Point is, Israel has almost 0 choice, it's a Catch-22. If they leave the Hamas rockets alone, they continue to get bombed. If they fire on the rocket positions, they kill innocents. Nothing good can come out of the situation for Israel.

My squadron called in a JDAM on a drone that crashed with about 70 civilians poking around to see what the hell it was. and that was an inanimate object. we most certainly accept civilians as collateral damage in our operations.

I just have a problem seeing the US government shooting missiles on targets in the middle of a city. But when I look back at the Iraq invasion, that's what happened. So I'll give this to you. Maybe I try to see us as in a different, better, light. I was hoping that there would be more of a difference in change to Obama, but these drones that we're all pissed at him for because too often we hear about an entire family getting blown up in some village is a good example. You're right. (mrandall)

always find it interesting to read about where politics and sport (esp world football) collide.

I think however that we should all take a moment to ask the question, "Why?" Why has the Palestinian sports infrastructure, not to mention Palestinian athletes, always been a target of the Israeli military? Why has the Palestinian domestic soccer league only completed seven seasons since its founding in 1977? Why are players commonly subjected to harassment and violence, not to mention curfews, checkpoints, and all sorts of legal restrictions on their movement? Why were national team players Ayman Alkurd, Shadi Sbakhe and Wajeh Moshate killed by the Israeli Defense Forces during the 2009 military campaign? Why did imprisoned national team player Mahmoud Sarsak require a hunger strike, the international solidarity campaign of Amnesty International, and a formal protest from both FIFA and the 50,000-player soccer union FIFpro to just to win his freedom after three years behind bars?

GaryRissling wrote:always find it interesting to read about where politics and sport (esp world football) collide.

I think however that we should all take a moment to ask the question, "Why?" Why has the Palestinian sports infrastructure, not to mention Palestinian athletes, always been a target of the Israeli military? Why has the Palestinian domestic soccer league only completed seven seasons since its founding in 1977? Why are players commonly subjected to harassment and violence, not to mention curfews, checkpoints, and all sorts of legal restrictions on their movement? Why were national team players Ayman Alkurd, Shadi Sbakhe and Wajeh Moshate killed by the Israeli Defense Forces during the 2009 military campaign? Why did imprisoned national team player Mahmoud Sarsak require a hunger strike, the international solidarity campaign of Amnesty International, and a formal protest from both FIFA and the 50,000-player soccer union FIFpro to just to win his freedom after three years behind bars?

"Attacking the athletic infrastructure is about attacking the idea that joy, normalcy, or a universally recognizable humanity could ever be a part of life for a Palestinian child. This is a critical for Israel both internationally and at home. The only way the Israeli government and its allies can continue to act with such brazen disregard for civilian life is if they convince the world that their adversaries collectively are less than human. The subway ads calling Muslims “savages”, the Islamophobic cartoons and videos that are held up as examples of free speech, are all part of a quilt that says some deaths are not to be mourned.

At home, attacking sports is about nothing less than killing hope."

I don't want to get into it now but there is so much more unreported by the US media. Even things like Palestinians routinely being barred from water sources on their own land. So they have minimal drinking water and forget about planting anything. Israel has been raging total war on the population. I understand they are fearful of the number of Muslims in Israel exceeding that of Jews in time, but that's why everybody should get involved and come up with a solution already. And pressure both sides to get it done. Punish equally, including Israel, something that no recent US President has had the guts to do so far.

GaryRissling wrote:always find it interesting to read about where politics and sport (esp world football) collide.

I think however that we should all take a moment to ask the question, "Why?" Why has the Palestinian sports infrastructure, not to mention Palestinian athletes, always been a target of the Israeli military? Why has the Palestinian domestic soccer league only completed seven seasons since its founding in 1977? Why are players commonly subjected to harassment and violence, not to mention curfews, checkpoints, and all sorts of legal restrictions on their movement? Why were national team players Ayman Alkurd, Shadi Sbakhe and Wajeh Moshate killed by the Israeli Defense Forces during the 2009 military campaign? Why did imprisoned national team player Mahmoud Sarsak require a hunger strike, the international solidarity campaign of Amnesty International, and a formal protest from both FIFA and the 50,000-player soccer union FIFpro to just to win his freedom after three years behind bars?

"Attacking the athletic infrastructure is about attacking the idea that joy, normalcy, or a universally recognizable humanity could ever be a part of life for a Palestinian child. This is a critical for Israel both internationally and at home. The only way the Israeli government and its allies can continue to act with such brazen disregard for civilian life is if they convince the world that their adversaries collectively are less than human. The subway ads calling Muslims “savages”, the Islamophobic cartoons and videos that are held up as examples of free speech, are all part of a quilt that says some deaths are not to be mourned.

At home, attacking sports is about nothing less than killing hope."

I don't want to get into it now but there is so much more unreported by the US media. Even things like Palestinians routinely being barred from water sources on their own land. So they have minimal drinking water and forget about planting anything. Israel has been raging total war on the population. I understand they are fearful of the number of Muslims in Israel exceeding that of Jews in time, but that's why everybody should get involved and come up with a solution already. And pressure both sides to get it done. Punish equally, including Israel, something that no recent US President has had the guts to do so far.

Sarcastic... you have an interesting slant. From your posts, I assume your background is that you're a naturalized citizen. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Would you say that your views are in any way related to your heritage? (Just curious)

Sarcastic wrote:I don't want to get into it now but there is so much more unreported by the US media. Even things like Palestinians routinely being barred from water sources on their own land. So they have minimal drinking water and forget about planting anything. Israel has been raging total war on the population. I understand they are fearful of the number of Muslims in Israel exceeding that of Jews in time, but that's why everybody should get involved and come up with a solution already. And pressure both sides to get it done. Punish equally, including Israel, something that no recent US President has had the guts to do so far.

ExPatriatePen wrote:You missed the point. No one is comparing the Iraq war with the the Terrorist attack on the US embassey.

The question is about how we accept that our politicians are lying to us... Regardless of the issue, we expect the, to lie, we don't hold them accountable to the truth.

Who in their right mind would compare benghazi to the Iraq war? That's completely disingenuous and an obvious attempt to change the discussion.

I did a poor job of articulating my point.

Ambassador Rice is being publicly skewered by some Republican politicians for, in my opinion, reasons that are completely disingenuous. It's political grandstanding of the highest order...... and none of this posturing was present ten years ago when overt lies and misinformation spurred on a war that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Americans and god knows how many Iraqi civilians.

The selective outrage being displayed here my problem. I have no problem with wanting to hold our elected representatives accountable for their actions..... but I want that accountability to be both ways. Fundamentally, I am in complete agreement with what you're saying.

We're talking about a woman who was confirmed by a unanimous vote in the Senate, she's not a controversial person, and is highly unlikely to have made the decision of what information (if any) to deliberately withhold. She was the messenger.

Sarcastic wrote:I just have a problem seeing the US government shooting missiles on targets in the middle of a city.

If you look at the history of air power, you see technology playing the role of force multiplier.

Today, a single-seat F/A-18F can carry more than three times the payload of a B-17 and carry munitions that can be directed by a combination of satellite and laser guidance to hit specific windows in target buildings. And a single aircraft carrier can send 40-50 of those jets into the battle space. So you've got 80 people delivering the mission effectiveness of 3,000 aircrew 60 years ago, and they can accomplish in one mission what used to require days of bombardment. In the 40s, the circular error of probability (where 50% of bombs would land) was over a mile.... meaning that targets the size of a rail yard would only get hit with half the bombs dropped on it, and the other half - 500-600 bombs - would land in the surrounding neighborhood. Today, normal CEP is one or two meters.

The problem is the bad guys are in urban environments. So even with modern CEPs within the wingspan of the average fifth grader, when a 2,000-pound JDAM explodes it doesn't know that it shouldn't send shrapnel through any adjacent structures.

ExPatriatePen wrote:You missed the point. No one is comparing the Iraq war with the the Terrorist attack on the US embassey.

The question is about how we accept that our politicians are lying to us... Regardless of the issue, we expect the, to lie, we don't hold them accountable to the truth.

Who in their right mind would compare benghazi to the Iraq war? That's completely disingenuous and an obvious attempt to change the discussion.

I did a poor job of articulating my point.

Ambassador Rice is being publicly skewered by some Republican politicians for, in my opinion, reasons that are completely disingenuous. It's political grandstanding of the highest order...... and none of this posturing was present ten years ago when overt lies and misinformation spurred on a war that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Americans and god knows how many Iraqi civilians.

The selective outrage being displayed here my problem. I have no problem with wanting to hold our elected representatives accountable for their actions..... but I want that accountability to be both ways. Fundamentally, I am in complete agreement with what you're saying.

We're talking about a woman who was confirmed by a unanimous vote in the Senate, she's not a controversial person, and is highly unlikely to have made the decision of what information (if any) to deliberately withhold. She was the messenger.

We're in agreement then.

The only difference we have is your comment that "none of the posturing was present..."

You're right in that the GOP wasn't up in arms, but the Dems sure were.

We need to stop this ridiculous partisanship and old our pols acco table regardless of party affiliation.

Last edited by ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.