Where do protestors come up with car bombs? It's not like you can put one together with a stick, a poster board, and some magic markers.

Fritz88

02-20-2011, 04:07 PM

The heroes of Libya are making history. The scumbag is falling faster than what anyone else had thought.

SNR

02-20-2011, 04:32 PM

Where do protestors come up with car bombs? It's not like you can put one together with a stick, a poster board, and some magic markers.You must have missed that episode of Matlock

HonestChieffan

02-20-2011, 04:40 PM

Jack Bauer can do it.

Thig Lyfe

02-20-2011, 04:48 PM

You must have missed that episode of Matlock

You're thinking of MacGuyver.

chiefsnorth

02-20-2011, 05:37 PM

Well, if Egypt is any representative sample, once this all concludes (in whatever direction) I'm sure we can look forward to Obama coming out and letting us know he was on the winning side all along.

BucEyedPea

02-20-2011, 05:44 PM

BREAKING – Alarabiya.net: Gaddafi is headed to Venezuela or Brazil on private jet

"If what I am reading at Al Jazeera and the February 17th weblog of Libyan rebels (http://www.libyafeb17.com/) is true, it appears the people of Libya have done something amazing and truly heroic — they have broken the back of the regime of Colonel Muammar Qaddafī and forced him to flee (though no one is for certain whether the Brother Leader has fled or not). It is true that protests and fighting have spread to the capital Tripoli, Libyans are chanting “There is no God but God and Qaddafī is the enemy of God,” and soldiers and army units are mutinying.

Libyan diplomats are resigning (one publicly during an interview) and the country’s top Islamic scholar has proclaimed publicly it is a religious duty to resist the regime.

It is one thing for Tunisians to topple a government with not much of an army, and another for Egyptians to take on a state where the loyalty of the army was uncertain (and largely pro-people). But the Libyans have taken on a state that was willing and able to shoot back (much like the shia of Bahrain), even to the point of using anti-aircraft guns and artillery against demonstrators, and it appears the people are succeeding. If they haven’t rid themselves of the odious Qaddafī tonight (this morning in Libya), it is very likely they will soon.

The implications of this are staggering. No regime in the region is now safe. No regime in the world is now safe. We live in a moment when “the people, united, cannot be defeated.” At least not when fighting for their dignity and their right to rule themselves. (It’s just pathetic when people chant that when fighting for “health care” or higher wages.) No state in the world is safe. People have shown that it is possible to face down the guns and prove the pointlessness of state power — of the kind of violence the state can bring to bear — when they are unafraid of that violence."

I very much hope that Egypt, Libya and other countries can form moderate democracies, but the Iranian revolution of 1979 was co-opted by religious nuts to a degree, and we continue to pay the price for that to this day.

The fact is that we don't really know whether the events in Egypt, Libya and elsewhere in the Middle East will be good for the US, or even for their own people, until events play themselves out in the months and years to come.

WV

02-20-2011, 11:25 PM

The fact is that we don't really know whether the events in Egypt, Libya and elsewhere in the Middle East will be good for the US, or even for their own people, until events play themselves out in the months and years to come.

Just more of the same IMO....anyone expecting any of these countries to be stable for any length of time is crazy.

KILLER_CLOWN

02-20-2011, 11:29 PM

This looks more and more like Brzezinski's Grand Chessboard scenario of destabilization of the region. I could be way off base but these revolutions one after another are hard to figure without some backing from somewhere.

I very much hope that Egypt, Libya and other countries can form moderate democracies, but the Iranian revolution of 1979 was co-opted by religious nuts to a degree, and we continue to pay the price for that to this day.

The fact is that we don't really know whether the events in Egypt, Libya and elsewhere in the Middle East will be good for the US, or even for their own people, until events play themselves out in the months and years to come.

Recent history does not lead me to harbor much hope foe freedom and democratic government in the middle east. My hope is that it happens, my expectation is the extremists will end up in charge. I hope I am wrong.

SNR

02-20-2011, 11:51 PM

You're thinking of MacGuyver.

Fuck.

WV

02-20-2011, 11:54 PM

Recent history does not lead me to harbor much hope foe freedom and democratic government in the middle east. My hope is that it happens, my expectation is the extremists will end up in charge. I hope I am wrong.

This....

Direckshun

02-21-2011, 01:31 AM

Recent history does not lead me to harbor much hope foe freedom and democratic government in the middle east. My hope is that it happens, my expectation is the extremists will end up in charge. I hope I am wrong.

I think the evidence on the ground suggests that this is very unlikely.

johnny961

02-21-2011, 01:37 AM

Recent history does not lead me to harbor much hope foe freedom and democratic government in the middle east. My hope is that it happens, my expectation is the extremists will end up in charge. I hope I am wrong.

Agreed.

Hog Farmer

02-21-2011, 08:52 AM

BREAKING – Alarabiya.net: Gaddafi is headed to Venezuela or Brazil on private jet

"If what I am reading at Al Jazeera and the February 17th weblog of Libyan rebels (http://www.libyafeb17.com/) is true, it appears the people of Libya have done something amazing and truly heroic — they have broken the back of the regime of Colonel Muammar Qaddafī and forced him to flee (though no one is for certain whether the Brother Leader has fled or not). It is true that protests and fighting have spread to the capital Tripoli, Libyans are chanting “There is no God but God and Qaddafī is the enemy of God,” and soldiers and army units are mutinying.

Libyan diplomats are resigning (one publicly during an interview) and the country’s top Islamic scholar has proclaimed publicly it is a religious duty to resist the regime.

It is one thing for Tunisians to topple a government with not much of an army, and another for Egyptians to take on a state where the loyalty of the army was uncertain (and largely pro-people). But the Libyans have taken on a state that was willing and able to shoot back (much like the shia of Bahrain), even to the point of using anti-aircraft guns and artillery against demonstrators, and it appears the people are succeeding. If they haven’t rid themselves of the odious Qaddafī tonight (this morning in Libya), it is very likely they will soon.

The implications of this are staggering. No regime in the region is now safe. No regime in the world is now safe. We live in a moment when “the people, united, cannot be defeated.” At least not when fighting for their dignity and their right to rule themselves. (It’s just pathetic when people chant that when fighting for “health care” or higher wages.) No state in the world is safe. People have shown that it is possible to face down the guns and prove the pointlessness of state power — of the kind of violence the state can bring to bear — when they are unafraid of that violence."

It's unfortunate that our bombs weren't a little more accurate in the 1980s.

Frazod

02-21-2011, 11:21 AM

Coming to America soon ????

I assume our pal Hugo is getting his guest room ready.

teedubya

02-21-2011, 11:25 AM

This just in... Dick Cheney said Qaddafi is a Good Man. lol.

[j/k]

JimBaker488

02-21-2011, 11:27 AM

Be very careful here. Gaddafi is the continent's longest-ruling dictator, and he's insane. He will use incredibly brutal force before being taken out.

My guess is that thousands will have to die before he's removed.
No doubt. Afterall we are talking about the guy who basically had the
Lockerbie Bomber on his payroll. Khadafy is a true monster of the highest degree.

go bowe

02-21-2011, 03:38 PM

looks like the air force is bombing protestors, according to al-jeezeerah...

in other news, looks like various libyan diplomats are turning against the regime and issuing strong statements of support for the protestors...

this is getting interesting...

alnorth

02-21-2011, 03:45 PM

Two Libyan air force pilots who were apparently ordered to bomb some protesters decided to disobey orders. They fled to Malta with their fighter jets and asked for asylum.

Chiefshrink

02-21-2011, 03:51 PM

I very much hope that Egypt, Libya and other countries can form moderate democracies, but the Iranian revolution of 1979 was co-opted by religious nuts to a degree, and we continue to pay the price for that to this day.

The fact is that we don't really know whether the events in Egypt, Libya and elsewhere in the Middle East will be good for the US, or even for their own people, until events play themselves out in the months and years to come.

Thankyou Jimmy Carter:thumb: and now a la Barack Obama:shake:

Just watch, same sh** is going to happen and they will try to drop the "radical pose" and give lip service to democracy but in reality 1979 will happen all over again in due time:thumb:

BucEyedPea

02-21-2011, 04:22 PM

Two Libyan air force pilots who were apparently ordered to bomb some protesters decided to disobey orders. They fled to Malta with their fighter jets and asked for asylum.

Awesome I love it! :thumb:

Halfcan

02-21-2011, 04:26 PM

Libya will be the next to fall, the protesters are now ramming military installations with car bombs.

I think the evidence on the ground suggests that this is very unlikely.

Too bad they weren't allowed arms....such as M16s, AK-47s. :drool:

HonestChieffan

02-21-2011, 04:58 PM

I think the evidence on the ground suggests that this is very unlikely.

Since very little is known, and even less can be predicted, my money will be 70/30 on some Islamist extreme element on a sharia based endgame. Most unlikely is a democratic moderate government that is open to non islamists or ideas outside a very narrow set of rules.

I very much hope that Egypt, Libya and other countries can form moderate democracies, but the Iranian revolution of 1979 was co-opted by religious nuts to a degree, and we continue to pay the price for that to this day.

The fact is that we don't really know whether the events in Egypt, Libya and elsewhere in the Middle East will be good for the US, or even for their own people, until events play themselves out in the months and years to come.

I totally agree, but was lit up for saying so.

The only orthodox attitude around these events is blind jubilation.

thecoffeeguy

02-21-2011, 06:25 PM

And Obama remains silent...figures.

Aries Walker

02-21-2011, 08:27 PM

As well he should. If I were President, the last thing I'd want* would be to have the pro-government people in the middle east scream "Western intervention!" any louder than they already are.

*Well, second to last, anyway, behind the Raiders winning the Super Bowl, for which I would happily utilize the 101st Airborne if needed.

go bowe

02-21-2011, 08:30 PM

Since very little is known, and even less can be predicted, my money will be 70/30 on some Islamist extreme element on a sharia based endgame. Most unlikely is a democratic moderate government that is open to non islamists or ideas outside a very narrow set of rules.

Freedom as we know it ain't got much hope.bible-thumping nazi socialist jew-lover!

israeli spies will subvert the revolution before our brother terrorists can take over...

patteeu

02-21-2011, 08:36 PM

As well he should. If I were President, the last thing I'd want* would be to have the pro-government people in the middle east scream "Western intervention!" any louder than they already are.

*Well, second to last, anyway, behind the Raiders winning the Super Bowl, for which I would happily utilize the 101st Airborne if needed.

Then I take it you think he screwed up by speaking out about the Egypt situation.

thecoffeeguy

02-21-2011, 08:46 PM

As well he should. If I were President, the last thing I'd want* would be to have the pro-government people in the middle east scream "Western intervention!" any louder than they already are.

*Well, second to last, anyway, behind the Raiders winning the Super Bowl, for which I would happily utilize the 101st Airborne if needed.

Oh, so he was quiet on Iran in 2009, super vocal on Egypt, and now quiet on Libya.

Catch my drift?

HonestChieffan

02-21-2011, 08:56 PM

bible-thumping nazi socialist jew-lover!

israeli spies will subvert the revolution before our brother terrorists can take over...

That's it. Dealey plaza at sunrise.

Saul Good

02-21-2011, 09:03 PM

And Obama remains silent...figures.

Supposedly we've used our Navy to keep Iran from sending ships over there and trying to have a say in things. Good move if true.

go bowe

02-21-2011, 09:22 PM

That's it. Dealey plaza at sunrise.paint ball guns at 20 paces...

go bowe

02-21-2011, 09:23 PM

Supposedly we've used our Navy to keep Iran from sending ships over there and trying to have a say in things. Good move if true.i hadn't heard that, but i agree with you that it would be a good move on our part...

Aries Walker

02-22-2011, 12:04 AM

Then I take it you think he screwed up by speaking out about the Egypt situation.
Well, I didn't agree with every stance he's taken. He didn't say much before Feb. 10, when the White House released the statement where was saying that Egypt has to put forward a solid path to democracy and respect the rights of the people and so on. He stopped short, however, of saying that Mubarak must step down, which I would have liked to hear, especially since I've never really liked how comfy-cozy we are (and have been) with dictators like him.

His press conference wasn't until the next day, a couple of hours after Mubarak stepped down, and didn't really say much of any significance. Egypt has spoken, I am confident, nice job military, please let us still be friends, and so on. If he had said almost anything while the guys on camels and horses were whipping the crowd, a good part of the Muslim world would have used it as "proof" that it was all an evil Western plot.

ForeverChiefs58

02-22-2011, 09:35 AM

Again, not a lot of media coverage but it is expected because that sub human is closing his country from any outside communication.

Sub human? Is he a space alien? That would explain all the UFO reports in the ME. The mother ship is looking for him. They are on the lookout for someone that looks like a middleeastern Gene Simmons.

This asshole released 110 islamic militants from prison, armed them and told them to kill foreigners.

We need to invade. Fuck it. He has 5,000 troops in his military. That's laughable. It'll be over in a week.

go bowe

02-25-2011, 11:47 PM

Jimmy Carter provides insight....http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/02/25/peter-worthington-some-of-jimmy-carters-best-friends-arent-terrorists/ that article doesn't seem to say much about what carter has said on the subject other than being a little naive about the muslim brotherhood in general in the me...

in egypt at the present time the muslim brotherhood is just one of many groups that will participate in the egyptian experiment in democracy...

the mb in egypt is less than 20% of the population iirc and have not engaged in violence for many years...

imo the mb does not appear to be a threat at this time, but circumstances can and do change...

go bowe

02-25-2011, 11:55 PM

This asshole released 110 islamic militants from prison, armed them and told them to kill foreigners.

We need to invade. **** it. He has 5,000 troops in his military. That's laughable. It'll be over in a week.invade, huh?

are you volunteering to lead the charge?

btw there were 50,000 in the libyan army when this all started, not 5,000...

and that's not counting the air force and navy (tee hee, the libyan "navy")...

BIG_DADDY

02-25-2011, 11:58 PM

War crimes in Libya right now.
Posted via Mobile Device

It's just the beginning. It's time for Islam to rise.

alnorth

02-26-2011, 12:06 AM

We need to invade. **** it. He has 5,000 troops in his military. That's laughable. It'll be over in a week.

No.

1) We are not welcome and US troops would die for no thanks, some probably by the hand of those who we want to "help". 2) If we "win", we'd harm those we seek to help by making it look like we propped them up and chose them to lead an illegitimate government.

If the Libyan people want to take down their tyrant, let them write their own heroic chapter. I guess if they need some small arms I might think its ok to sell or give them some, but it sounds like they have weapons. I might also be fine with enforcing a no-fly zone because bombing a rebellion with jets isn't a fair fight.

Numbah One

02-26-2011, 12:10 AM

btw there were 50,000 in the libyan army when this all started, not 5,000...

Where did you get 50k from?

I was just watching the news and a former US Intelligence officer said there were 5,000 troops at Gaddafi's disposal + elite douchebags he has in personal protection.

This is distilled for brevity:
In a distinct echo of the tactics they pursued to encourage U.S. intervention in the Balkans and Iraq, a familiar clutch of neoconservatives appealed Friday for the United States and NATO to "immediately" prepare military action to help bring down the regime of Libyan leader Muammar Gadhafi and end the violence that is believed to have killed well over a thousand people in the past week.

The appeal, which came in the form of a letter signed by 40 policy analysts, including more than a dozen former senior officials who served under President George W. Bush, was organized and released by the Foreign Policy Initiative (FPI), a two-year-old neoconservative group that is widely seen as the successor to the more-famous — or infamous — Project for the New American Century (PNAC). ...

Among the letter’s signers were former Bush deputy defense secretary Paul Wolfowitz; Bush’s top global democracy and Middle East adviser; Elliott Abrams; former Bush speechwriters Marc Thiessen and Peter Wehner; Vice President Dick Cheney’s former deputy national security adviser, John Hannah, as well as FPI’s four directors: Weekly Standard editor William Kristol; Brookings Institution fellow Robert Kagan; former Iraq Coalition Provisional Authority spokesman Dan Senor; and former Undersecretary of Defense for Policy and Ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman.

It was Kagan and Kristol who co-founded and directed PNAC in its heyday from 1997 to the end of Bush’s term in 2005.

The letter comes amid growing pressure on Obama, including from liberal hawks, to take stronger action against Gadhafi....

While neoconservatives were among the first to call for military action against Gadhafi in the past week, some prominent liberals and rights activists have rallied to the call, including three of the letter’s signatories: Neil Hicks of Human Rights First; Bill Clinton’s human rights chief, John Shattuck; and Leon Wieseltier of The New Republic, who also signed the PNAC Iraq letter 10 years ago. ...

Such comments evoked strong reactions from some military experts, however.

"I’m horrified to read liberal interventionists continue to suggest the ease with which humanitarian crises and regional conflicts can be solved by the application of military power," wrote Andrew Exum, a counter-insurgency specialist at the Center for a New American Security, whose Abu Muqawama blog is widely read here. "To speak so glibly of such things reflects a very immature understanding of the limits of force and the difficulties and complexities of contemporary military operations."

"(The neoconservatives) are essentially pro-intervention, pro-war, without regard to the costs to the country," he told IPS. "They don’t recognize that we’re incredibly over-extended and that the kinds of things they want us to do actually further weaken our already-eroded stock of American power."

alnorth

02-26-2011, 05:13 PM

I might be fine with intervening to stop an outright genocide that has been proven to be in progress against people who cant resist, but thats it.

This is not genocide. This is a political dispute headed for a civil war. Let the Libyans fight their civil war.

Halfcan

02-26-2011, 05:39 PM

It's unfortunate that our bombs weren't a little more accurate in the 1980s.

:thumb:

BigMeatballDave

02-26-2011, 06:01 PM

So, where the fuck is the UN? Useless fucking POS organization.

BigMeatballDave

02-26-2011, 06:04 PM

This asshole released 110 islamic militants from prison, armed them and told them to kill foreigners.

We need to invade. Fuck it. He has 5,000 troops in his military. That's laughable. It'll be over in a week.The US needs to stay the fuck away from this. The UN and NATO needs to get involved.

alnorth

02-26-2011, 06:15 PM

The US needs to stay the **** away from this. The UN and NATO needs to get involved.

no thanks. No one should get involved, especially the UN or NATO, except to the extent we want to supply one side or another with weapons and food to further our own interests, and maybe enforce a no-fly zone for humanitarian reasons.

This is not Milosevic embarking on a Bosnian genocide, its a popular rebellion headed to a civil war. If Gaddafi successfully crushes the rebellion and sends the wounded survivors limping home, so be it. If some people in a country rebel, they have to accept the possibility that those who participate in the rebellion could die. Otherwise we end up directly picking and choosing who we like to rule when it shouldnt be our business. (oh we don't like those rebels and we don't care about the dictator so we'll stay out. Oh those rebels over there are good, we'll move in and kill the dictator. Oh, that dictator in this other country is our friend. We'll label those rebels as terrorists and send in special forces to kill them, etc)

Now, if after winning (he wont, but what if), Gaddafi decides to empty Eastern Libya by executing every single man, participant or not, in all the cities in east Libya and all the women and children in those cities kicked out of the country, that would rise to the level of something that should be stopped by an international force.

I very much hope that Egypt, Libya and other countries can form moderate democracies, but the Iranian revolution of 1979 was co-opted by religious nuts to a degree, and we continue to pay the price for that to this day.

The fact is that we don't really know whether the events in Egypt, Libya and elsewhere in the Middle East will be good for the US, or even for their own people, until events play themselves out in the months and years to come.

hell, the US can't even form a moderate democracy
but something out of either extremist sides would be good

|Zach|

02-26-2011, 09:48 PM

no thanks. No one should get involved, especially the UN or NATO, except to the extent we want to supply one side or another with weapons and food to further our own interests, and maybe enforce a no-fly zone for humanitarian reasons.

This is not Milosevic embarking on a Bosnian genocide, its a popular rebellion headed to a civil war. If Gaddafi successfully crushes the rebellion and sends the wounded survivors limping home, so be it. If some people in a country rebel, they have to accept the possibility that those who participate in the rebellion could die. Otherwise we end up directly picking and choosing who we like to rule when it shouldnt be our business. (oh we don't like those rebels and we don't care about the dictator so we'll stay out. Oh those rebels over there are good, we'll move in and kill the dictator. Oh, that dictator in this other country is our friend. We'll label those rebels as terrorists and send in special forces to kill them, etc)

Now, if after winning (he wont, but what if), Gaddafi decides to empty Eastern Libya by executing every single man, participant or not, in all the cities in east Libya and all the women and children in those cities kicked out of the country, that would rise to the level of something that should be stopped by an international force.

I find myself nodding my head in agreement a whole lot when alnorth posts in DC.

alnorth

02-26-2011, 10:39 PM

I find myself nodding my head in agreement a whole lot when alnorth posts in DC.

My opinion on this sort of thing was a whole lot different 8 or 9 years ago when we were still gripped with 9/11 hysteria and neoconservative thinking was popular. I don't agree with her on everything, but I think I'm fairly close to Buceyedpea these days on foreign issues. We threw a whole hell of a lot of lives and money away in the form of treasuries bought by the Chinese to pay for an Iraqi war of liberation that seems like a big fat waste now in this recession.

To see this call for us to go into Libya rear its ugly head seems revolting now. Aside from the morality and the non-interventionist ideal, we just cant afford it anymore.

googlegoogle

02-27-2011, 01:47 AM

We-USA need to stick out of it.

Let them fight & die for their freedom.

The Mad Crapper

02-27-2011, 07:17 AM

Barry is to busy partying...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110216/ap_en_mu/us_obama_motown

LiveSteam

02-27-2011, 10:45 AM

[QUOTE=alnorth;7455176]no thanks. No one should get involved, especially the UN or NATO,

That maybe true. but when you hire mercenary fighters from other countries to do your bidding against your own people. Its no longer a civil war. Its genocide. Obama needs to grow a pair. & fly some of our new toys over Qaddafi's house.

alnorth

02-27-2011, 10:49 AM

no thanks. No one should get involved, especially the UN or NATO

That maybe true. but when you hire mercenary fighters from other countries to do your bidding against your own people. Its no longer a civil war. Its genocide. Obama needs to grow a pair. & fly some of our new toys over Qaddafi's house.

Genocide is deciding that a group of people (all jews in germany, all asians in the US, every single man who lives in these East Libya cities even if they didn't resist) should die. Using mercenaries doesn't change the definition, the people are fighting to get rid of Gaddafi and Gaddafi is fighting to stay in power. No one is fighting to exterminate a group of people.

vailpass

02-27-2011, 10:53 AM

We need to respect the sovereignity of other nations and allow them to decide their own fates, resolve their own conflicts.
If we need to have a few company guys on the ground to gather data/deploy influence that would give us a strategic advantage in working with whoever came out on top then fine.

LiveSteam

02-27-2011, 10:53 AM

Genocide is deciding that a group of people (all jews in germany, all asians in the US, every single man who lives in these East Libya cities even if they didn't resist) should die. Using mercenaries doesn't change the definition, the people are fighting to get rid of Gaddafi and Gaddafi is fighting to stay in power. No one is fighting to exterminate a group of people.

Excuse me . Gaddafi is cheating & Obama needs to grow a pair.
Obama is just scared Danna White will set up a cage match.
Obama VS Gaddafi
I will bet the farm on Gaddafi

vailpass

02-27-2011, 10:58 AM

Excuse me . Gaddafi is cheating & Obama needs to grow a pair.
Obama is just scared Danna White will set up a cage match.
Obama VS Gaddafi
I will bet the farm on Gaddafi

Yes. Unless obama tags out and that big-foot bitch he married comes in the ring and gives Gaddafi the Sasquatch Smash followed up by a Ass-as-big-as-a-house off the ropes.

patteeu

02-27-2011, 11:50 AM

Genocide is deciding that a group of people (all jews in germany, all asians in the US, every single man who lives in these East Libya cities even if they didn't resist) should die. Using mercenaries doesn't change the definition, the people are fighting to get rid of Gaddafi and Gaddafi is fighting to stay in power. No one is fighting to exterminate a group of people.

Earlier in this thread you referred to genocide with respect to Milosevic and Bosnia, but this definition doesn't apply there.

alnorth

02-27-2011, 06:30 PM

Earlier in this thread you referred to genocide with respect to Milosevic and Bosnia, but this definition doesn't apply there.

The planned execution of over 7,800 men and boys in Srebrenica (who were apparently guilty of nothing more than living there) qualifies as a genocide. There were apparently two other legally recognized genocides in Duboj and Foča, but I'm less familiar with what happened there.

The Mad Crapper

02-27-2011, 07:02 PM

The planned execution of over 7,800 men and boys in Srebrenica (who were apparently guilty of nothing more than living there) qualifies as a genocide. There were apparently two other legally recognized genocides in Duboj and Foča, but I'm less familiar with what happened there.

That happened when Clinton was president, right? That and the 800,000 Rwandan's slaughtered.

patteeu

02-27-2011, 07:57 PM

The planned execution of over 7,800 men and boys in Srebrenica (who were apparently guilty of nothing more than living there) qualifies as a genocide. There were apparently two other legally recognized genocides in Duboj and Foča, but I'm less familiar with what happened there.

For one thing, Milosevic was never convicted of the charge and even while he was still alive, conviction certainly was not assured.

Second, it's not clear to me that what the pro-Libyan dictator's forces are doing in Libya today are distinguishable. It's unclear exactly what is happening in Libya so to say that it's not genocide when you're so willing to accept the kind of watered down definition that you seem to be applying in Bosnia seems premature.

alnorth

02-27-2011, 08:08 PM

For one thing, Milosevic was never convicted of the charge and even while he was still alive, conviction certainly was not assured.

Second, it's not clear to me that what the pro-Libyan dictator's forces are doing in Libya today are distinguishable. It's unclear exactly what is happening in Libya so to say that it's not genocide when you're so willing to accept the kind of watered down definition that you seem to be applying in Bosnia seems premature.

we have no reason to believe he's doing anything other than hunkering down in Tripoli. Even Saddam, as much of a bastard he was, arguably never engaged in genocide, even against the Kurds.

HonestChieffan

02-27-2011, 09:18 PM

we have no reason to believe he's doing anything other than hunkering down in Tripoli. Even Saddam, as much of a bastard he was, arguably never engaged in genocide, even against the Kurds.

What was the gas all about?

alnorth

02-27-2011, 09:22 PM

What was the gas all about?

They were rebelling against him. Once you start to take an active role in trying to topple the government, you give up the right to play the genocide card.

Genocide is basically mass-murder by the government of people who did nothing violent or potentially violent to you. Obviously Hitler is the gold standard of genocide, but you dont have to rise to his level. If we decided that the Miami Heat annoyed us so much that every man who lived in the state of Florida should be shot in the head, that is also genocide, and rises to the level of other countries sticking their noses into our business.

HonestChieffan

02-27-2011, 10:10 PM

They were rebelling against him. Once you start to take an active role in trying to topple the government, you give up the right to play the genocide card.

Genocide is basically mass-murder by the government of people who did nothing violent or potentially violent to you. Obviously Hitler is the gold standard of genocide, but you dont have to rise to his level. If we decided that the Miami Heat annoyed us so much that every man who lived in the state of Florida should be shot in the head, that is also genocide, and rises to the level of other countries sticking their noses into our business.

Thank you for clarifying. So Saddam was in the right to gas the Kurds.

alnorth

02-27-2011, 10:14 PM

Thank you for clarifying. So Saddam was in the right to gas the Kurds.

:spock:

Of course he was right to gas the Kurds. Because obviously, ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that falls just short of genocide is okey-dokey in our book. Want to murder the 7-11 guy on MLK and 17th for the cash in the till? Go ahead, its not genocide. :rolleyes:

(non-sarcastic response)Your response was completely stupid. What we are talking about, given the hideous back-breaking expense of sending our troops into battle, is what it takes before we should band together with other countries to freaking declare war on you, which is a standard that falls WELL SHORT of a dictator just being aggressive in putting down dissent in their country(/non-sarcastic response)

HonestChieffan

02-27-2011, 10:23 PM

So mass murder of Kurds was not bad enough to fit your definition but its still bad. Im getting there. Remember Im an (r), we see things like this as rather black and white. (D)'s are better at seeing the gray and Im still trying to gain insight into that.

go bowe

02-27-2011, 10:33 PM

well i, for one, see gray every time i look in the mirror...

patteeu

02-28-2011, 01:02 AM

They were rebelling against him. Once you start to take an active role in trying to topple the government, you give up the right to play the genocide card.

Genocide is basically mass-murder by the government of people who did nothing violent or potentially violent to you. Obviously Hitler is the gold standard of genocide, but you dont have to rise to his level. If we decided that the Miami Heat annoyed us so much that every man who lived in the state of Florida should be shot in the head, that is also genocide, and rises to the level of other countries sticking their noses into our business.

Actually, when Saddam gassed the Kurds, he was at war with Iran. But Bosnia's secession wasn't exactly amicable. I'm not sure you can distinguish their situation from the Kurds all that well. There was a lot of killing on both sides before the battle of Srebrenica.

The Miami Heat are pretty damned annoying.

BucEyedPea

02-28-2011, 10:47 AM

So mass murder of Kurds was not bad enough to fit your definition but its still bad. Im getting there. Remember Im an (r), we see things like this as rather black and white. (D)'s are better at seeing the gray and Im still trying to gain insight into that.

Did you know the Kurds are also ruled by criminal thugs and commit acts of terror inside Turkey? Furthermore, there are contrary facts on SH gassing the Kurds.