Yeah, I know...I've said I'm getting trolled a couple times here...the only thing I'm concerned about is people that honestly don't know the criteria for the HHOF and all that surrounds it doesn't get confused by this misinformation...

Yeah, I know...I've said I'm getting trolled a couple times here...the only thing I'm concerned about is people that honestly don't know the criteria for the HHOF and all that surrounds it doesn't get confused by this misinformation...

mikey287 wrote:- Semin is HHOF worthy to you? Or is trending that way? Because of how impactful he's been, no doubt? Yes?- Thomas Vanek averages 79 games per season, and he plays til he's 40...that's 1425 games, he's a career 0.81 points per game player = 1154 points = HHOF to you (and only you)- Derek Roy averages 68 games per season, he plays til he's 40...that's 1365 games, he's a career 0.78 points per game player = 1065 points = HHOF to you (and only you)

every 40 year old plays 79 games a season? You're letting stats cloud your judgement of common sense: Their ppg will fall, and (most likely) neither of them will play until they are 40.

Vanek and Roy and Semin definitely deserve to be in over someone like, say, Damphousse, because when Damphousse played there were 7 goals per game scored...Vanek and Roy are scraping by - I mean - putting up earth shattering, historical numbers at 5.5 to 6 goals per game their entire careers...it's harder for them to get 1000 and they're gonna do it if they hold on long enough...first ballot! That's facts.......yo. (and those are facts, not be confused with your "facts" ......oy)

LOLZ! "Scraping by"; stop trolling, brah.

So your magical 1000 point barrier smacks of modern bias...your 20-year hang up (for Whitney, at least, saw him tossed around to half a dozen teams, waived a couple times, traded for superstar Kevyn Adams and make it as a second liner in most of his stops while being a less than noteworthy playoff performer for his career) smacks of just...crap...

All of which mean absolutely nothing: Jagr was traded for Kris Beech, Michal Sivek and Ross Lupaschuk; does that somehow diminish what he accomplished?Tim Horton played for 4 teams, he must've sucked!

But screw it...let's dilute the Hall, get everyone that's ever had a 40 goal season in there (important milestone - that's facts....yo.), get all the point per game players for a season (Rob Brown, come on down)...get all the goalies that played in this league for more than 8 years...all the guys with at least 1200 penalty minutes too, don't wanna leave anyone out...also, career time on ice (after all, if you can play in the league for a long time, you must have been elite vs. your peers) so Luke Richardson, Darryl Sydor, Glen Wesley, come on down, you all had 2 decade careers...Hell...anyone with 10,000 posts here on LGP... you're in the HHOF too...longevity! ...or something...whatever...!

mikey287 wrote:- Semin is HHOF worthy to you? Or is trending that way? Because of how impactful he's been, no doubt? Yes?- Thomas Vanek averages 79 games per season, and he plays til he's 40...that's 1425 games, he's a career 0.81 points per game player = 1154 points = HHOF to you (and only you)- Derek Roy averages 68 games per season, he plays til he's 40...that's 1365 games, he's a career 0.78 points per game player = 1065 points = HHOF to you (and only you)

every 40 year old plays 79 games a season? You're letting stats cloud your judgement of common sense: Their ppg will fall, and (most likely) neither of them will play until they are 40.

Who is to say they won't? Who is to say their PPG average won't rise in their prime? I'm letting stats cloud my judgement of common sense: a) that's the first time I've ever been told that b) it's a very ironic statement given your "stance" (which I still don't actually believe that you believe)

Vanek and Roy and Semin definitely deserve to be in over someone like, say, Damphousse, because when Damphousse played there were 7 goals per game scored...Vanek and Roy are scraping by - I mean - putting up earth shattering, historical numbers at 5.5 to 6 goals per game their entire careers...it's harder for them to get 1000 and they're gonna do it if they hold on long enough...first ballot! That's facts.......yo. (and those are facts, not be confused with your "facts" ......oy)

Physical_Graffiti wrote:LOLZ! "Scraping by"; stop trolling, brah.

So your magical 1000 point barrier smacks of modern bias...your 20-year hang up (for Whitney, at least, saw him tossed around to half a dozen teams, waived a couple times, traded for superstar Kevyn Adams and make it as a second liner in most of his stops while being a less than noteworthy playoff performer for his career) smacks of just...crap...

Physical_Graffiti wrote:All of which mean absolutely nothing: Jagr was traded for Kris Beech, Michal Sivek and Ross Lupaschuk; does that somehow diminish what he accomplished?Tim Horton played for 4 teams, he must've sucked!

Who was talking about those guys (especially out of context)? I was talking about Ray Whitney. Whether or not it means anything to you is fine...but I'd guess (and this is just a hypothetical here) there's a strong correlation between being waived in your 5th or 6th season at the beginning of your prime at the age of 25 or 26 whatever Whitney was and NOT being a HHOFer...seems unlikely that such a strong HHOF, impact player wouldn't be told he's not good enough to make a team as he entered his prime. Interesting fact at worst.

But screw it...let's dilute the Hall, get everyone that's ever had a 40 goal season in there (important milestone - that's facts....yo.), get all the point per game players for a season (Rob Brown, come on down)...get all the goalies that played in this league for more than 8 years...all the guys with at least 1200 penalty minutes too, don't wanna leave anyone out...also, career time on ice (after all, if you can play in the league for a long time, you must have been elite vs. your peers) so Luke Richardson, Darryl Sydor, Glen Wesley, come on down, you all had 2 decade careers...Hell...anyone with 10,000 posts here on LGP... you're in the HHOF too...longevity! ...or something...whatever...!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...I believe there are 249 male players in the HHOF as of right now...based on Whitney being admitted in (and it appears it doesn't look like there's any question on your end to that - which is still mind boggling) - how many players should* be in in your estimation (retired or if they retired today)? Double the number to 500? 700? 1000? Serious question, no research necessary, just a rough guess. Just how far off is the HHOF committee?

mikey287 wrote:- Semin is HHOF worthy to you? Or is trending that way? Because of how impactful he's been, no doubt? Yes?- Thomas Vanek averages 79 games per season, and he plays til he's 40...that's 1425 games, he's a career 0.81 points per game player = 1154 points = HHOF to you (and only you)- Derek Roy averages 68 games per season, he plays til he's 40...that's 1365 games, he's a career 0.78 points per game player = 1065 points = HHOF to you (and only you)

every 40 year old plays 79 games a season? You're letting stats cloud your judgement of common sense: Their ppg will fall, and (most likely) neither of them will play until they are 40.

Who is to say they won't? Who is to say their PPG average won't rise in their prime? I'm letting stats cloud my judgement of common sense: a) that's the first time I've ever been told that b) it's a very ironic statement given your "stance" (which I still don't actually believe that you believe)

40 is "prime age" now?

Vanek and Roy and Semin definitely deserve to be in over someone like, say, Damphousse, because when Damphousse played there were 7 goals per game scored...Vanek and Roy are scraping by - I mean - putting up earth shattering, historical numbers at 5.5 to 6 goals per game their entire careers...it's harder for them to get 1000 and they're gonna do it if they hold on long enough...first ballot! That's facts.......yo. (and those are facts, not be confused with your "facts" ......oy)

Physical_Graffiti wrote:LOLZ! "Scraping by"; stop trolling, brah.

So your magical 1000 point barrier smacks of modern bias...your 20-year hang up (for Whitney, at least, saw him tossed around to half a dozen teams, waived a couple times, traded for superstar Kevyn Adams and make it as a second liner in most of his stops while being a less than noteworthy playoff performer for his career) smacks of just...crap...

Physical_Graffiti wrote:All of which mean absolutely nothing: Jagr was traded for Kris Beech, Michal Sivek and Ross Lupaschuk; does that somehow diminish what he accomplished?Tim Horton played for 4 teams, he must've sucked!

Who was talking about those guys (especially out of context)? I was talking about Ray Whitney. Whether or not it means anything to you is fine...but I'd guess (and this is just a hypothetical here) there's a strong correlation between being waived in your 5th or 6th season at the beginning of your prime at the age of 25 or 26 whatever Whitney was and NOT being a HHOFer...seems unlikely that such a strong HHOF, impact player wouldn't be told he's not good enough to make a team as he entered his prime. Interesting fact at worst.

I never said you were talking about them out of context; I merely brought them up to show that what you get in return for a player (Jagr) in a trade doesn't always exemplify the talent you traded away; a fact you tried to make by pointing out who Whitney was traded for.

Considering that those years weren't in Whitney's prime, that means nothing.

But screw it...let's dilute the Hall, get everyone that's ever had a 40 goal season in there (important milestone - that's facts....yo.), get all the point per game players for a season (Rob Brown, come on down)...get all the goalies that played in this league for more than 8 years...all the guys with at least 1200 penalty minutes too, don't wanna leave anyone out...also, career time on ice (after all, if you can play in the league for a long time, you must have been elite vs. your peers) so Luke Richardson, Darryl Sydor, Glen Wesley, come on down, you all had 2 decade careers...Hell...anyone with 10,000 posts here on LGP... you're in the HHOF too...longevity! ...or something...whatever...!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...I believe there are 249 male players in the HHOF as of right now...based on Whitney being admitted in (and it appears it doesn't look like there's any question on your end to that - which is still mind boggling) - how many players should* be in in your estimation (retired or if they retired today)? Double the number to 500? 700? 1000? Serious question, no research necessary, just a rough guess. Just how far off is the HHOF committee?

I"m saying that the players you listed in no way have the numbers needed of a player playing today to get into the hall: They have longevity without the points. What the three of those players accomplished in no way comes close to what Whitney has.

By my estimation, you'd add 33 players to the Hall if you added all 1,000 point getters and no one else, which brings us to a grand total of about 284: 200 players less than your lowest estimate.

Bleh, this isn't even evolving into good conversation...it's just...sad...

- Vanek, etc. PPG won't rise when he's 40...I mean the 15 years between now and 40...obviously...come on, think...- Sounds good, why bother explaining it...any other HHOFers get waived at 26 or traded for a 4th liner in his prime...not likely...even though the Jagr deal didn't work, it had good intentions and was a forced move anyway...Whitney was not forced...- Semin is setting up to have a better career than Whitney, I hate to break it to you. Even more so, based on your own "arguments"...so either Semin AND Whitney are going to be (assuming Semin's expected trajectory continues) or neither of them are.- What about 900 points getters that played only during the 50's...? 500 points was a great career before the War...that was a milestone then... No love for them? Why 1000? Why does it almost exclusively include players that played most of their careers in the 80's? Why has the HHOF committee omitted all of them to date and for most of them, there has never been any real support for them to get in? Best question of all...if Whitney retired with 999 points, is he in?

- Sounds good, why bother explaining it...any other HHOFers get waived at 26 or traded for a 4th liner in his prime...not likely...even though the Jagr deal didn't work, it had good intentions and was a forced move anyway...Whitney was not forced...

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

- Semin is setting up to have a better career than Whitney, I hate to break it to you. Even more so, based on your own "arguments"...so either Semin AND Whitney are going to be (assuming Semin's expected trajectory continues) or neither of them are.

I really have no problem with him being in if he stays consistent.

- What about 900 points getters that played only during the 50's...? 500 points was a great career before the War...that was a milestone then... No love for them? Why 1000? Why does it almost exclusively include players that played most of their careers in the 80's? Why has the HHOF committee omitted all of them to date and for most of them, there has never been any real support for them to get in? Best question of all...if Whitney retired with 999 points, is he in?

Again, you're going over topics I've already touched on: It is a good measurement for today's players; it in no way downgrades the accomplishments of players who played in other eras.

Let me ask you this: Why 50 in 50? That'll give you your answer.

Now you're just making stuff up: the first 17 players to reach 1,000 points didn't play most of their career in the 80s, and neither did most of the most recent 40.

Wth are you babbling about? Of the 79 players to reach 1000 points at least 45 are in the Hall and 18 aren't eligible yet.

I have a better question for you: If Wayne Gretzky didn't score all those points, is he still the greatest player to ever play the game?

I'll just field this gongshow in the order that they are spewed at me...

- So Vanek's points per game average will go nowhere but down from here? Intriguing...- More senseless blathering...- That tells me and everyone all they need to know about your lack of expertise on the subject...thank you- Good measure of what?- Why 50 in 50 what? That has nothing to do with a career independently...1000 points is a career mark...50 in 50 is half of one season that's happened less than 10 times ever...how are these at all related...?- Obviously I was referring to non-HHOF 1000 point getters...why would I be talking about players that are already in and deserving? It's really coming apart now...well, it never really came together, but it's now just...bleh...

Of all 1000+ point getters that are not in the HHOF every single of them played at least some portion of their career was played in the firewagon era (1980-1993). Of them, I'd say that only the following belong in the Hall at quick glance:Jagr, Sakic, Oates, Selanne, Modano, Lidstrom, Thornton and Iginla...

- Don't answer questions with questions. You've have a lot more to answer for than I do...you simply don't make sense with your stance. Period. Ray Whitney himself would tell you he doesn't belong in the Hall. I'll ask again...if Whitney's career ends at 999 points, is he in?

mikey287 wrote:I'll just field this gongshow in the order that they are spewed at me...

- So Vanek's points per game average will go nowhere but down from here? Intriguing...

His points per game average will go up when he's in the twlight of his career; wtf?

- More senseless blathering...

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is senseless blathering? Wtf? Do you even understand the quote?

- That tells me and everyone all they need to know about your lack of expertise on the subject...thank you

- Good measure of what?

Of great players today...

- Why 50 in 50 what? That has nothing to do with a career independently...1000 points is a career mark...50 in 50 is half of one season that's happened less than 10 times ever...how are these at all related...?

Are you for real? 1) 50 in 50 was brought up earlier to show how the context of the 50 in 50 matters not: It's just a great "stat" like 1000 points. 2) And 1000 points in a career has happened less than one time for every season the NHL has existed, true it's not as rare as 50 in 50, but that doesn't mean it isn't Hhof worthy

- Obviously I was referring to non-HHOF 1000 point getters...why would I be talking about players that are already in and deserving? It's really coming apart now...well, it never really came together, but it's now just...bleh...

Wait: So 1000 point getters don't deserve to be in the Hall, except for the ones that are/ will be in? So you're saying that the minority who aren't/might not be in the Hall are the rule? That sir, makes no sense at all.

Of all 1000+ point getters that are not in the HHOF every single of them played at least some portion of their career was played in the firewagon era (1980-1993). Of them, I'd say that only the following belong in the Hall at quick glance:Jagr, Sakic, Oates, Selanne, Modano, Lidstrom, Thornton and Iginla...

Here it is again: the majority that are/ will be in the Hall, you choose to ignore that fact.

- Don't answer questions with questions. You've have a lot more to answer for than I do...you simply don't make sense with your stance. Period. Ray Whitney himself would tell you he doesn't belong in the Hall. I'll ask again...if Whitney's career ends at 999 points, is he in?

No sir, your stance doesn't make sense: I don't deal in "what-ifs"; "I deal in facts". Remember: "What-ifs" don't prove that Lemieux was better than Gretzky. They also don't disprove that Whitney does have 1000 points, so your question is moot.

This has provided a wealth of giggles by the way...the only thing that's troublesome is that I'm starting to think this might be a serious argument...

Anywho, now to the answering questions with questions, out-of-context responses and question dodging...

- Yeah, it would be obscene if a forward scored more from the ages of 29-33...or as you termed it, "twilight"...no chance Vanek has a 75 or 80 point season for the rest of his career...add soothsayer to your list of talent(s)...

- Senseless blathering relative to the thread.

- Eyeroll indeed

- See above. Or maybe I should "play" dumb like you do... OMGz, you think someone can score 1000 points in a day...lollerskates!

- In your top-notch research did you uncover that 1000 point careers kind of grouped together at any point in history? Notably 1980-1993...?

- This is what makes me think you're definitely trolling. No rational human could take that out of what I said. You believe that all 1000 point getters should be in the Hall, no matter what. I believe that the players that deserve to be in the Hall should be in...which will include some 1000 point getters. Career points is not the #1 criteria on anyone that knows what's going on's list...

- I'm trying to disprove that Whitney has 1000 points? Hmmm...that's really a desperate swipe there on your part, disconcerting. You deal in facts do you? The crux of the argument is you think Whitney belongs in the HHOF...which is your opinion. My question is: if Derek Roy or Ray Whitney or George Parros or Player X gets 999 career points, is he in? You refuse to answer for good reason.

- If 1000 points is so, so valuable...why is there no steam behind Bobby Smith getting into the HHOF? He retired almost 20 years ago...surely he is deserving, right? Bernie Nicholls has over 1200, and there's no one that's interested in putting him, but he's been eligible for about a decade now...Phil Housley, not a first ballot slam dunk...I am so shocked! ...what's the deal? Maybe Whitney will get in after he plays for Hamilton's new NHL team... :shrug:

mikey287 wrote:This has provided a wealth of giggles by the way...the only thing that's troublesome is that I'm starting to think this might be a serious argument...

Anywho, now to the answering questions with questions, out-of-context responses and question dodging...

- Yeah, it would be obscene if a forward scored more from the ages of 29-33...or as you termed it, "twilight"...no chance Vanek has a 75 or 80 point season for the rest of his career...add soothsayer to your list of talent(s)...

Yeah; because it's so easy almost every player can do it! Let's just throw random names out there and say they are to prove an incorrect point!

- Senseless blathering relative to the thread.

It isn't at all: You mentioned good intentions.

- Eyeroll indeed

- See above. Or maybe I should "play" dumb like you do... OMGz, you think someone can score 1000 points in a day...lollerskates!

- In your top-notch research did you uncover that 1000 point careers kind of grouped together at any point in history? Notably 1980-1993...?

Not at all, as I previously pointed out to you.

- This is what makes me think you're definitely trolling. No rational human could take that out of what I said. You believe that all 1000 point getters should be in the Hall, no matter what. I believe that the players that deserve to be in the Hall should be in...which will include some 1000 point getters. Career points is not the #1 criteria on anyone that knows what's going on's list...

Nah, they save that for Hart voting, which leads to Hhof voting.

- I'm trying to disprove that Whitney has 1000 points? Hmmm...that's really a desperate swipe there on your part, disconcerting.

That's not what I stated.

You deal in facts do you? The crux of the argument is you think Whitney belongs in the HHOF...which is your opinion. My question is: if Derek Roy or Ray Whitney or George Parros or Player X gets 999 career points, is he in? You refuse to answer for good reason.

Because I don't deal in "what-ifs"; ask me when it happens.

- If 1000 points is so, so valuable...why is there no steam behind Bobby Smith getting into the HHOF? He retired almost 20 years ago...surely he is deserving, right? Bernie Nicholls has over 1200, and there's no one that's interested in putting him, but he's been eligible for about a decade now...Phil Housley, not a first ballot slam dunk...I am so shocked! ...what's the deal? Maybe Whitney will get in after he plays for Hamilton's new NHL team... :shrug:

Yeah: Let's take examples of people in the minority of a group and make them the rule! Mark Howe's never going to be in the Hall of Fame because he's already been retired for fifteen years!

Of those I mentioned, I'd say maybe 5 get the call, and it's not because they scored 1000+ points.

Adam Oates(just because of his playmaking ability and some impressive assist totals) and Phil Housley are the only two I would put in as definite.....you can make an argument against Housley(he played forward at times and wasn't very good defensively) but 1000 points for a defenseman is still pretty impressive even though it was in a higher scoring era....you could make an argument for Mogilny and Turgeon also....the others you could make arguments for but I wouldn't consider any of them top 10 players at any time in their careers(though Nicholls did put up a few impressive point seasons)

Whitney definitely isn't a hall of famer, but has had a nice career. He broke into the league with Pat Falloon(remember him)...Falloon was the first rounder and Whitney the second rounder for the Sharks their first year. Hard to believe, he's still a very effective player.

Well, it's finally run out of gas...it was a bunch of non-answers and attempted distractions...

Still funny in the sense that you so staunchly don't "deal in what-if's" but in a previous message stated that Semin would get in if he stayed healthy, when prompted...so you basically don't deal in what-if's if they are devastating to your "case"...

mikey287 wrote:Well, it's finally run out of gas...it was a bunch of non-answers and attempted distractions...

Still funny in the sense that you so staunchly don't "deal in what-if's" but in a previous message stated that Semin would get in if he stayed healthy, when prompted...so you basically don't deal in what-if's if they are devastating to your "case"...

That's not a "what-if", it's just an "if": Your "what-if" questions refered to changing the past, "if" refers to something that may or may not yet happen.

Then to top it all off, you cite bleacher report...

"I'm finished with this guy"

You cited the exeption to the rule of "1,000 point players get in", you cited three players who don't have 1,000 points and aren't going to get it, and you've attempted to show (incorrectly) that "almost every one of the players who hit 1,000 points played a majority of their career in the 80s": You sir are trolling.

a) That quote at the end which is somehow attributable to me (it's not) is widely out of context. I've only been talking about players that are NOT in the HHOF. Once again, I'll re-state it for the jury. All players with 1,000 career points that are eligible for the HHOF but are not in it have played some portion of their career during the firewagon era (1980-1993). That's 100%.

b) Happy birthday, go out and get a drink...tell ya what, I'll supply the beer at the birthday bash you have after Ray Whitney is inducted in the HHOF...

mikey287 wrote:50 in 39 = never done1000 points = done dozens and dozens of times...but it doesn't represent anything in the context of the conversation, and this really is an elementary point, I'm surprised it's requiring so many posts to get this across...what's the difference between 800 points and 1000 points? 300 goals and 400 goals? Such "all time greats" as Ray Whitney, Brian Propp, Brian Bellows, Bobby Smith, Vincent Damphousse, and Phil Housley have 1000+ points...such actual greats as Bobby Orr (2nd best player all time), Maurice Richard (top-10 all time), Howie Morenz (top-20 all time) do not...there's no strong correlation between 1000 points being significant or insignificant...

Not that it's terribly relevant to the conversation, but we're talking about 50 goals in 50 games...a distinctly and actually rare feat...Maurice Richard did it (HHOF, top-10 player ever)Mike Bossy did it (HHOF, top-40 player ever)Wayne Gretzky did it (HHOF, best player ever)Mario Lemieux did it (HHOF, top-4 player ever)Brett Hull did it (HHOF)Joe Malone basically did it (44 goals in a 20 game season) - (HHOF, at least top-100 player ever, almost certainly top-75)

1000 points =/= bad. 1000 points =/= great. Very elementary concept in the very basics of hockey history research...

It's not what you're saying, it's who you are saying it to. You'e wasting your breath with someone who will troll your arguments for 10 pages if you let him. Your points are all well taken and understood by 99% of posters.