I assume you mean the Universe by Cosmos, Phil-at-L. In that case we know that about 13.5 billion years ago it was a tiny dense ball and that it expanded to what we see today on its own. We don't know if it just burst into life or if it had shrunk from a previously existing universe. What we are certain of, however, is the the universe is not static. Thus it does not need any external force to sustain it.

For the record, how do you suppose a non-material 'thing' might interact with matter?

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No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

For those of you who may have forgotten, we do not discuss moderation in-thread. If you get a message from a moderator and wish to discuss it, do it by PM, please. Otherwise threads get derailed and become discussions about off topic issues. Thanks

My, my, you have a large request there. First of all let me be clear I have no religious affiliations. What i do have is a personal relationship with my Creator. There is nothing like a spiritual journey to learn about yourself and others. There is clearly good and evil in this world. The evidence of that is all around us everyday. If science created us there wouldn't be good and evil, there would only be survival. Clear rational thinking by all of mankind. All I know is when i need Him He is there, not always with the answers I want, but with the answers I need. There has been so many times He was the only One that I had to turn to, and I would be dead if He hadn't been there to see me through. You have to need Him if you want to find Him. Clear your mind of all the clatter of religions and search Him out. I stake my life that He will reveal Himself to you. You can't just go get God. Call Him on the phone, send an email. He has 6 billion children so patience is essential.

Good Luck my Friend,junebug

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

My, my, you have a large request there. First of all let me be clear I have no religious affiliations. What i do have is a personal relationship with my Creator. There is nothing like a spiritual journey to learn about yourself and others. There is clearly good and evil in this world. The evidence of that is all around us everyday. If science created us there wouldn't be good and evil, there would only be survival. Clear rational thinking by all of mankind. All I know is when i need Him He is there, not always with the answers I want, but with the answers I need. There has been so many times He was the only One that I had to turn to, and I would be dead if He hadn't been there to see me through. You have to need Him if you want to find Him. Clear your mind of all the clatter of religions and search Him out. I stake my life that He will reveal Himself to you. You can't just go get God. Call Him on the phone, send an email. He has 6 billion children so patience is essential.

Good Luck my Friend,junebug

Welcome, Junebug.

Just so we know where we stand, here, could you clarify? When you say you have no religious affiliations, does that mean you do not consider yourself a Christian? Or do you believe your creator to be the god of the Bible, and just have no particular denomination you subscribe to?

If the former, could you give us a brief description/definition of god as you understand him, and if the latter, then despite anything you want to claim, Christianity IS, in fact, a religion.

There is nothing like a spiritual journey to learn about yourself and others. There is clearly good and evil in this world. The evidence of that is all around us everyday. If science created us there wouldn't be good and evil, there would only be survival. Clear rational thinking by all of mankind.

Be that as it may, how do you conclude that if the universe were naturally created that there would, by default, be no evil in the world?

And on a slightly different tangent, thanks for explaining your view that since you believe we weren't created naturally, then it must have been your "creator" that put evil here, no? And you claim worship why?

That is fascinating, if true. I've heard a lot of xians say this same thing. However, when we explore this idea further, it turns out there is no such relationship. It turns out they are just repeating a mantra that identifies them as belonging to a kind of tribal group. So, persuant to that, could you please describe your relationship? Could you also be more specific about your "creator". I presume you don't mean your parents.

There is clearly good and evil in this world. The evidence of that is all around us everyday.

I beg your pardon, but it is not clear to me that this is the case. I've not seen any evidence of it anywhere. It is clear to me there is suffering and people doing unkind things to other people. But good and evil? I guess it depends on how we define it.

If science created us there wouldn't be good and evil, there would only be survival.

Science doesn't "do" anything. Science is a method and, broadly speaking, what we call our accumulate knowledge about how reality works. So, nobody I know has said science created us. As for the rest, you are exactly right. There is only survival. Is it good or evil when a lion kills a young gazelle?

I think you did not read carefully I am not a xian I am just a person who has lived through a lot of grief and God helped me through all of them. xians believe I would suffer eternal damnation for being lesbian so please don't put me in that category. In many ways I am a lot like you. I don't believe much of what Christians say. Just because any body says something don't make it true. I am doing my best to explain my personal experiences with you. I did not magically lift myself up from despair. There was an undeniable Love that surrounded me and gave me comfort when I was so close to the edge. Where did that Love come from there was no one else around. I say I would bet my life on it because I am that certain that God exists. I don't need to see Him to know He is there. I believe Webster would agree that good describes when a person helps another that is good, and when a person rapes a small child that is evil. These things happen everyday. Good and evil. I would describe my relationship as this; unconditional love. Unlike the xians doctrine God does love us no matter what we do. Whether we are gay, black, whores, or whore mongers the love is there.Whether your atheist, pentacostal, baptist, buddhist, pagean, it just don't matter, the love is there.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

I would describe my relationship as this; unconditional love. Unlike the xians doctrine God does love us no matter what we do. Whether we are gay, black, whores, or whore mongers the love is there.Whether your atheist, pentacostal, baptist, buddhist, pagean, it just don't matter, the love is there.

How do you think this "love" is manifested. Or is it manifested. The huge disparity in indidual experience on this planet does not seem to show a pattern that one could say is a god love. I, for instance, was not shot while in the first grade by a crazed gunman. Others were. Are both of those outcomes examples of your gods love, or is his love a part-time hobby?

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 10:53:08 AM by ParkingPlaces »

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

Unlike the xians doctrine God does love us no matter what we do. Whether we are gay, black, whores, or whore mongers the love is there.Whether your atheist, pentacostal, baptist, buddhist, pagean, it just don't matter, the love is there.

That's your claim. Now could you please validate it? You know, with evidence?

Just so we know where we stand, here, could you clarify? When you say you have no religious affiliations, does that mean you do not consider yourself a Christian? Or do you believe your creator to be the god of the Bible, and just have no particular denomination you subscribe to?

If the former, could you give us a brief description/definition of god as you understand him, and if the latter, then despite anything you want to claim, Christianity IS, in fact, a religion.[/quot

i don't know that this will be brief but I'll try. God as I know Him is the Creator of this solar system, earth, and mankind. He lives every where in everything, and when I need Him He is there. God loves us all no matter what and there is no such thing as Hell/ Lake of Fire. If I were christian i would have to believe that i was going to hell for being lesbo. that why i searched God out to find out if my eternal life was condemned and God revealed to me that it wasn't through years of study and searching for truth.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

How do you think this "love" is manifested. Or is it manifested. The huge disparity in indidual experience on this planet does not seem to show a pattern that one could say is a god love. I, for instance, was not shot while in the first grade by a crazed gunman. Others were. Are both of those outcomes examples of your gods love, or is his love a part-time hobby?[/quote]

His love is manifested every second of every hour with every beat of my heart His love is manifested through us and His Holy Spirit.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

So your God is SPAG (self projection as God) and he will do whatever YOU want him to do and will be there when YOU need him.....Fuck the starving Junebug has God's ear now

it is our place to feed people if they're starving i don't see many atheist out there handing out food to the poor. i wander why that is. there are 100's of thousands of people being fed because of God's love. the good in the world I mentioned earlier.

you don't have a clue about me 12 monkeys God is not self projected but self experienced. i just find you angry. yea i guess it would be nice to have a father that took care of everything and expected nothing in return, but then what does that leave for us. Mankind has no responsibility for each other? my parents always made me clean up after myself, so why should we be any different as children of a powerful father? would you be proud of your children if you did every thing for them? We would be totally dependant on God and unable to think or do anything for ourselves.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

i don't know that this will be brief but I'll try. God as I know Him is the Creator of this solar system, earth, and mankind. He lives every where in everything, and when I need Him He is there. God loves us all no matter what and there is no such thing as Hell/ Lake of Fire. If I were christian i would have to believe that i was going to hell for being lesbo. that why i searched God out to find out if my eternal life was condemned and God revealed to me that it wasn't through years of study and searching for truth.

So god, as you know him, is only responsible for this little speck of the universe? Is he subordinate to other gods out there? Is some other deity responsible for the rest of the universe, or is that just something that happened, and this god of yours decided to play with a piece of it?

Your beliefs sound very vague, just as though you basically made up a scenario which fit your particular mindset. You say that this is the result of years of study. What, exactly were you studying?

junebug: First off, the way to quote someone is to type [ quote] and [ /quote] around someone's text. Note that the initial space should be removed when you actually do this. It will make it much easier to tell which words are yours and which are someone else's.

Now, on to the actual response. It doesn't seem that you are actually a member of a religion (although you're citing Christian-specific things, like the Holy Spirit, so that isn't entirely certain). Instead, you had something akin to a religious experience, where you felt emotions that you weren't expecting, and you attributed those emotions to God. Understandable, since those emotions helped you recover from despair.

However, you need to consider that those emotions probably came from inside you, rather than an external source. The human mind is fantastically complex, and most of it exists below the level of conscious thought. For example, intuition works in a similar way - a problem or idea gets processed by the subconscious, and the results are passed back up to the conscious mind. This could easily seem like the voice of a god to someone who doesn't know any better. Because of this, I suspect that the true source of those emotions you felt just when you needed them was your subconscious, your mind taking action to help keep you from being overwhelmed by despair.

It was still a real experience. It just did not have an external source. It came from within you.

That's your claim. Now could you please validate it? You know, with evidence?

what I can do for you is the next time life gets me down and I need God you are welcome to hook me up to whatever kind of monitor you think would gather the evidence you are longing so dearly for. I wish I had a strand of His hair to test the DNA.

You know what I am not going to claim that proving God exists is easy because it is not. No more easier to prove He doesn't. It truly comes down to an individuals choice. I just know in my life it brings me peace that I would gladly share with any one in this forum.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

I think the only point with this is for you to tell us how you know the source of what you experienced was external from you and not something that emanated from your subconscious. It's not a hard question - I hope.

I don't blame you for giving a shortanswer to this question - because that's what it all hinges on: the fact that you had a vague daydream, which could have applied to anything, and you chose to believe that it was a portent of the next event that happened to you.

Missed this questions Wayne - and I've asked it half a dozen times now. I will therefore assume that you HAVE no way of determining whether something is causal or not: that your automatic and constant assumption is that "god did that". It means that NONE of your anecdotes here are worth our consideration or discussion.

I'm going to allow you to define my testimony as anecdotes if it suits you. In fact, with the moderators permission I'm going to publish here kind of a comprehensive Wittenburg door anecdote challenge to be nailed to the galley door of the Church of Atheists that congregates on the Pirate Ship WWGHA.

The anecdotes are not self generated so your diminishing them and saying they are not somehow worthy of peoples time does nothing to insult me. It's not as though I went to school, misunderstood the lessons, turned in my homework and got an F. I would deserve the insult, and the humiliation of failure, and even the charge that my homework was not worthy of discussion. But it's not my homework and my intellect, and my personall worthiness were talking about here, we are talking about evidence, real evidence, Lots or anecdotal evidence of the intervention of an intelligent being, one so intelligent as to be (at least) 23 years patient and forknowing, and to be demonstrably either capable of causing an earthquake, or at least all knowing enough to pinpoint its eruption to the second. Pass that off as not worthy of discussion if you like, All I can do is report.

That's just it - they do for you, because you just ascribe everything to god's actions.

You reply saying you don't ascribe my anecdotes to God regardless of the intelligence that organized it. I describe obvious intelligent manipulation of events otherwise out of my personal control and you are so committed to not believing in God that you dismiss the clear intelligence that makes my anecdotes.. occur. God is throwing you a curveball that he knows your rational religion rejects. Your rejection of his overriding and obvious intelligence just makes you look and act silly.

I'm sure it is. But it isn't for us. That's the problem with a god who picks and chooses his favours and interventions: it's only convincing for the individuals concerned.

You are talking like a be liver that just feels left out of the loop. Come on his terms and He will make himself known to you personally. The remarkable activity of God detected in my life very neatly fits in to the Christian principles of acknowledging God and His righteousness, confessing my unworthiness, repenting, depending on the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ to cleanse me when I cannot do it myself, and then having a desire to obey. He knows what I'm made of, and that I fail to meet his standards, He's just glad to see that I agree with him about it, and so he helps me where I'm the weakest.

You refuse to Chang your position even when massive evidence is provided for you (remember those crime graphs?).

What I remember about the graphs was that you didn't like mine even though they came from the same source as yours. What I derived from that is that you pick and choose your data and what you want to believe about it, and I suppose that I do as well. You absolutely failed to make a case that the graphs i submitted were a fraud, and you simply didn't like what they concluded about the degradation of society. You would have never conceded to any coorelation that didn't follow your world view, you simply made up your mind that mine were wrong, and yours were right just like I say that an intelligent God intervenes in my life and you have made up your mind to dismiss it, out of hand. Maybe we are at loggerheads, but you can't walk away from this saying I haven't had a point. You might want to save face, but I don't expect that you have convinced yourself that I'm all wrong. You haven't convinced yourself that there was absolutely no meaning in the earthquake, you just don't know what to do with it. You don't have to concede to me personally that there is a God. I don't really matter. You do have to be honest with yourself though, just take that with you.

You alternate between being patronising, and smug. You are happy - or at best, indifferent - to the fact that you worship a god who does parlour tricks for you, and ignores the plight of others in far more need. For the most part, you refuse to answer questions, and those you do answer are normally rewarded with either a non sequiteur, or a smug little "bless you, you don't understand".

I do tell a lot of fun stories, what you haven't heard are stories of despair in my life. No unlike the despair of Job. My life has not all gone well, but God's presence is there. If things turn for the worse now and I'm dropped again into the pit, I may not like it, but like Job, I cannot renounce him. I have to live with the good and the bad of life like anyone else. The difference is that, I love and honor him in the good and the bad. That is the true mark of a Christian.

In short, you are a poor advert for any religion - if being a follower of your god would turn me into someone like you, then I want no part of it. That is how your actions, and presentation, are driving me away from your god - I see the multiple negative effects that your belief apparently has on you.

Why would we not want to worship your god? Because he will reward the believer with numerous little parlour tricks. Spending vast amounts of time setting up little tales for you to tell about how super-powered he is, while ignoring the very real plights of millions of people in desperate need around the world. A god who is willing and able to pop down to the world and steer things so that one special little flower will get an amusing anecdote, while women are raped and toddlers battered and children abused by his priests and....well, I needn't go on. I look at the god you are portraying to me, and it sickens me. You portray your god as a selfish manipulator, one who (by your own admission) will help find the keys of people who bow down before him and kiss his feet, but who will shrug and sneer at anyone who doesn't and happily watch them suffer. It sickens me. The god you tell us of is not a fount of love and kindness, but an inadequate with a colossal need for love himself.

God is love, and he can show that love to you even in a world of cruelty. I can't explain it all but it is true.

This is the god you present to us Wayne - be very clear about that. It MAY bear no relation at all to any god that really exists. But it is the god that we construct from everything you say here. You are the one putting this god forward Wayne - THAT is how you are driving us towards Satan.

I'll take that as an admission that you are a believer, as I believe most of you are here, you have just taken sides out of frustration.

To be honest, I have no expectation that you will be able to change, or even that you will try to understand what I am saying above. I HOPE that you will be able to engage with the issues I've raised, treat them seriously, and give a considered and relevant response that answers rather than avoids. My expectation, based on your previous performance, is that your response will avoid what I've said entirely. If this latter is the case, then I will quit wasting my time and this will be the last communication you will have from me that is not as a mod.

I've enjoyed our slugging it out.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 12:42:04 PM by WayneHarropson »

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The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

[/However, you need to consider that those emotions probably came from inside you, rather than an external source. The human mind is fantastically complex, and most of it exists below the level of conscious thought. For example, intuition works in a similar way - a problem or idea gets processed by the subconscious, and the results are passed back up to the conscious mind. This could easily seem like the voice of a god to someone who doesn't know any better. Because of this, I suspect that the true source of those emotions you felt just when you needed them was your subconscious, your mind taking action to help keep you from being overwhelmed by despair.

It was still a real experience. It just did not have an external source. It came from within you.]

thx for the quoting tip working on it.

You speak of it as though you were there as a witness. If that strength came from within me it is because of my faith in God. Truthfully you don't know where it came from and maybe you should consider not speaking so matter of factly about things you are not familiar with. It is not impossible that God was there for me no more than it is possible that He wasn't, we just haven't the proof either way.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

You know what I am not going to claim that proving God exists is easy because it is not. No more easier to prove He doesn't. It truly comes down to an individuals choice. I just know in my life it brings me peace that I would gladly share with any one in this forum.

I'm sure your beliefs do bring you peace, and there's nothing in the world wrong with that. Good for you. My lack of belief brings me peace too.

Of course you can't prove god exists, not because it's difficult, but because it's impossible. I think so anyway, because I think gods are imaginary. But, your god should be able to prove it exists, no? Unambiguously, and without a doubt. And that's what I always wonder about; why do gods remain so hidden if they're benevolent? A benevolent, loving god should want every last person on the planet to know about how extraordinarily loving it is, shouldn't it? Yet, if it indeed exists, it doesn't make itself known to all. That's illogical, nonsensical, and downright rude. It's certainly not benevolent.

BTW, you state you're not a christian, so what are you? Who is your god?

Oh, so did you have this faith in God when those feelings lifted you out of your despair? Because the way you put things indicated that you got your faith from that experience. If you didn't have that faith before that, then you can't very well attribute those feelings to that faith.

Also, let me ask you this. If we can't draw conclusions about an experience based on what you say about it...why, then, tell us about it? Isn't the point of telling us about it so that we can draw conclusions regarding it? Because if that wasn't your intent, then you're wasting our time and yours as well.

Now, it may be that you don't like the conclusions that I came to about your experience, but kindly remember that you came here to talk about it. You have no real business complaining because other people drew different conclusions than the ones you did. Or, to put it another way - if you aren't willing to give real consideration to what we say about your experience based on your account of it, why then do we have any obligation to give consideration to what you say about it?

there is no need for the hostility. I am not here but to share my personal experiences. You don't have to believe them I am just sharing. You have asked me for proof and I am offering it to you by reliving some dark moments in my life. Each moment brought me closer to God. I am trying to say if you want proof you have to need Him and He will show Himself to you by seeing you through when you think you have no strength left. I hope you don't need Him because that would mean you are suffering and I don't wish that on anyone.

no i don't have a strand of His hair or a piece of His garment, all I have is my own story which i am happy to share if it brings 1 person in this forum closer to God.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

So your God is SPAG (self projection as God) and he will do whatever YOU want him to do and will be there when YOU need him.....Fuck the starving Junebug has God's ear now

it is our place to feed people if they're starving i don't see many atheist out there handing out food to the poor. i wander why that is. there are 100's of thousands of people being fed because of God's love. the good in the world I mentioned earlier.

Really? As someone who has done anti-poverty work my whole life, (sometimes alongside folks of various different religions) I suspect that you might be misinformed as to the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of many people doing this work.

Those of us who don't believe that there is a shiny afterlife, often value life in a way that a religious person couldn't. And there are quite a few of us who dedicate our lives to improving the human condition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism