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Thoughts do count but if you go into ice hockey and demand it be turned into baseball then I am sorry but those people are clearly not getting the picture.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous though? Ice Hockey is a structured game with a rule book to match. EVE is a sandbox; one that has some rules and mechanics, but is also left significantly unstructured to let people play as they see fit. EVE is meant to evolve and change. Ideally in a beneficial way, but just like evolution itself, it's not necessarily going in any specific direction.

Thoughts do count but if you go into ice hockey and demand it be turned into baseball then I am sorry but those people are clearly not getting the picture.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous though? Ice Hockey is a structured game with a rule book to match. EVE is a sandbox; one that has some rules and mechanics, but is also left significantly unstructured to let people play as they see fit. EVE is meant to evolve and change. Ideally in a beneficial way, but just like evolution itself, it's not necessarily going in any specific direction.

I don't think it is disingenuous, if you try and make eve something it was never designed to be then it WILL fail. The premise of Eve is a sandbox and with that sandbox is PvP, total and uncompromising [to a degree, no murdering rookies in starter systems for instance]. If you start banning pvp in a pvp sandbox game for some inane reason then you break the sandbox. You stop the ability for players to target other players then it is no longer a sandbox pvp game. You may as well shut down the servers because what eve has been advertised as, is no longer true. Eve cannot work as a safe space game. I recognise cricket as a boring game where the main goal is to knock out the players so they can go back to drinking, I wouldn't suddenly go up to the people responsible for cricket and say, 'it must be something else'. If I want something more exciting, then it is there.

Would ice hockey fans watch their game if it suddenly changed beyond all recognition because Eve would change if you made it less of a sandbox. But not beneficially. I have no idea why people like Alistair play a game and expect it to be something else when it is clearly advertised as a sandbox pvp game. I don't suicide gank, Im not even playing but I will defend the right for others to do it. Screaming about suicide ganking is dumb because there are plenty of ways to protect yourself, people just are too lazy and stupid to bother sometimes, they want other people to do the work for them. I have never been suicide ganked since 2004, this is because I don't paint a big target on me saying 'Shoot me' [also because I am a poor]. One tried but I was in a combat ship and killed him.

Originally Posted by Alistair

Mate, High-Sec griefers aren't "villains", they're the gaming version of sociopathic mass shooters. People whose pleasure is derived directly from the displeasure of others, compounded by the others being unable to fight back.

You'd let EVE die to retain that? Hate to break it to you, but 'advertising' to griefers will not save EVE mate.

Personally I think that 'griefer' is a word that doesn't exist in eve online, people are free to suicide gank because eve is a sandbox game. I really have no idea why you think eve is something else.
Calling gankers 'sociopathic mass shooters' could in itself be called sociopathic, gankers for the most part really aren't. Eve caters to many people and really it is changing tastes that means people are
not playing eve and eve has always been niche and this is what has made it a success. Trying to appeal to a demographic that doesn't exist [by and large] is pointless.

Thoughts do count but if you go into ice hockey and demand it be turned into baseball then I am sorry but those people are clearly not getting the picture.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous though? Ice Hockey is a structured game with a rule book to match. EVE is a sandbox; one that has some rules and mechanics, but is also left significantly unstructured to let people play as they see fit. EVE is meant to evolve and change. Ideally in a beneficial way, but just like evolution itself, it's not necessarily going in any specific direction.

I don't think it is disingenuous, if you try and make eve something it was never designed to be then it WILL fail. The premise of Eve is a sandbox and with that sandbox is PvP, total and uncompromising [to a degree, no murdering rookies in starter systems for instance]. If you start banning pvp in a pvp sandbox game for some inane reason then you break the sandbox. You stop the ability for players to target other players then it is no longer a sandbox pvp game. You may as well shut down the servers because what eve has been advertised as, is no longer true. Eve cannot work as a safe space game. I recognise cricket as a boring game where the main goal is to knock out the players so they can go back to drinking, I wouldn't suddenly go up to the people responsible for cricket and say, 'it must be something else'. If I want something more exciting, then it is there.

Would ice hockey fans watch their game if it suddenly changed beyond all recognition because Eve would change if you made it less of a sandbox. But not beneficially. I have no idea why people like Alistair play a game and expect it to be something else when it is clearly advertised as a sandbox pvp game. I don't suicide gank, Im not even playing but I will defend the right for others to do it. Screaming about suicide ganking is dumb because there are plenty of ways to protect yourself, people just are too lazy and stupid to bother sometimes, they want other people to do the work for them. I have never been suicide ganked since 2004, this is because I don't paint a big target on me saying 'Shoot me' [also because I am a poor]. One tried but I was in a combat ship and killed him.

Humans are designed to live in caves, moving beyond the cave was a mistake and now humanity will fail.

Thoughts do count but if you go into ice hockey and demand it be turned into baseball then I am sorry but those people are clearly not getting the picture.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous though? Ice Hockey is a structured game with a rule book to match. EVE is a sandbox; one that has some rules and mechanics, but is also left significantly unstructured to let people play as they see fit. EVE is meant to evolve and change. Ideally in a beneficial way, but just like evolution itself, it's not necessarily going in any specific direction.

I don't think it is disingenuous, if you try and make eve something it was never designed to be then it WILL fail. The premise of Eve is a sandbox and with that sandbox is PvP, total and uncompromising [to a degree, no murdering rookies in starter systems for instance]. If you start banning pvp in a pvp sandbox game for some inane reason then you break the sandbox. You stop the ability for players to target other players then it is no longer a sandbox pvp game. You may as well shut down the servers because what eve has been advertised as, is no longer true. Eve cannot work as a safe space game. I recognise cricket as a boring game where the main goal is to knock out the players so they can go back to drinking, I wouldn't suddenly go up to the people responsible for cricket and say, 'it must be something else'. If I want something more exciting, then it is there.

Would ice hockey fans watch their game if it suddenly changed beyond all recognition because Eve would change if you made it less of a sandbox. But not beneficially. I have no idea why people like Alistair play a game and expect it to be something else when it is clearly advertised as a sandbox pvp game. I don't suicide gank, Im not even playing but I will defend the right for others to do it. Screaming about suicide ganking is dumb because there are plenty of ways to protect yourself, people just are too lazy and stupid to bother sometimes, they want other people to do the work for them. I have never been suicide ganked since 2004, this is because I don't paint a big target on me saying 'Shoot me' [also because I am a poor]. One tried but I was in a combat ship and killed him.

Originally Posted by Alistair

Mate, High-Sec griefers aren't "villains", they're the gaming version of sociopathic mass shooters. People whose pleasure is derived directly from the displeasure of others, compounded by the others being unable to fight back.

You'd let EVE die to retain that? Hate to break it to you, but 'advertising' to griefers will not save EVE mate.

Personally I think that 'griefer' is a word that doesn't exist in eve online, people are free to suicide gank because eve is a sandbox game. I really have no idea why you think eve is something else.
Calling gankers 'sociopathic mass shooters' could in itself be called sociopathic, gankers for the most part really aren't. Eve caters to many people and really it is changing tastes that means people are
not playing eve and eve has always been niche and this is what has made it a success. Trying to appeal to a demographic that doesn't exist [by and large] is pointless.

It's hilarious that you think a few limitations in a small section of systems (High-Sec, but smaller) would "stop the ability for players to target other players" in a game with thousands of systems, the vast majority of whom would be free for all as to PvP, so much so that you would feel the entire game defiled, and worthy of shutdown. In the realm of hysterical hyperbole and overreaction, you sir take not just a cake, but a Titan-sized cake.

EVE is a Sandbox, yes, but CCP provide a vast number of the sand particles that we play with in this sandbox, and all the rules we're limited by in playing with that sand. The idea that providing a more balanced PvE/PvP game would "kill EVE" is laughable, it could do nothing but help this flagging ultra niche title.

Even funnier is your argument that PvE players are a "demographic that doesn't exist". On the contrary, in every way PvE is more popular everywhere in gaming than PvP. PvP, espcially the extreme-delayed graitification kind that we have in EVE, is niche. Battle Arena-On-Demand PvP along with PvE are mainstream and sustains MMO's. Adding only a small bit more PvE focussed gameplay and space is hardly killing your game, but you'd rather it die than lose suicide gankers, link scammers and war dec spammers against the harmless kittens that lead to their de-subs.

Sadly, CCP is much like you, and that is one part of why their game is where it is, along with their ignoring the North American market.

It's probably too late at this point, so such is life, but books could be written on the complete mismanagement and misdevelopment of EVE and the massive missed opportunity it was. A common tale in MMO's to be fair.

Yesterday evening I was sitting in the barbers waiting for my haircut, and for some reason I got thinking about eve. Ended up checking the killboards of old corp mates, (some were still active which surprised me), thinking about the fleets I remembered etc. Had a pretty nice little nostalgic trip down memory lane for the game I definitely invested the most time in. Thought about my time in hisec, npc nullsec, first time my alliance took sov with help from nulli, time spent in stain, stints in lowsec and the few months I spent in FW etc.

I always remember how odd it felt that in such a dynamic game the one constant was sec status. There was no fluidity in lowsec/hisec/nullsec boundaries. That seems a massive shame to me, a hugely missed opportunity. I think an introduction of variable sec boundaries which could be somewhat influence by players would be the one thing to get me back into the game.

Yesterday evening I was sitting in the barbers waiting for my haircut, and for some reason I got thinking about eve. Ended up checking the killboards of old corp mates, (some were still active which surprised me), thinking about the fleets I remembered etc. Had a pretty nice little nostalgic trip down memory lane for the game I definitely invested the most time in. Thought about my time in hisec, npc nullsec, first time my alliance took sov with help from nulli, time spent in stain, stints in lowsec and the few months I spent in FW etc.

I always remember how odd it felt that in such a dynamic game the one constant was sec status. There was no fluidity in lowsec/hisec/nullsec boundaries. That seems a massive shame to me, a hugely missed opportunity. I think an introduction of variable sec boundaries which could be somewhat influence by players would be the one thing to get me back into the game.

That should have been what faction warfare was about tbh.

Yep; Dynamic sec status could really spice things up, could probably even develop a slick concept for it for player owned space too.

Hell you could really change the dynamics of nullsec by changing how everyone can dock in NPC 0.0 no matter their standing.

It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

A generation of gamers raised on mobile games and we think a PVE revamp will recapture their attention?

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.

And you know what? It's not that most 20smth people today don't have the time to put in something as complex as EvE, they don't have the willingness to do it, because anything that's more complicated than "point crosshair and press LMB" and their brains BSOD. And I'm not a rose tinted glasses person, but I've had met (too many) early 20 people and spent time with them (too much time imho) and they're vertigo inducing just from all the mental aerobatics they're trying to do and fail to tie up any threads of thought they start. It's mind numbing and the amazing thing is that they have incredibly more information at their fingertips and the brains to process it all but the attention span of houseflies.

I dare one of you to go to the official forums and Reddit and post your idea about there only being consensual wars and suicide ganking is no longer allowed so the game can get more players. Then report back with how many people said basically, "EVE doesn't need those kinds of players anyways."