People are comparing it to rng in normal raids. You simply cant do that because normal boss always drops loot, on every single kill!!! The loot he drops is random, and thats it. I got 3 items in lfr and 2 of those 3 have been same ( trinkets ), in raids you have to be stupid to use dkp for 2 same items ( not talking about weapon )...

in lfr you have a change to get the item no matter what happens. sometime you have 2 of the same. that sucks. but thats RNG>

now we go on to normal pugs 25m to keep it some what fair.

boss A has a change (RNG) to drop item B. hey item B drops. yea your verry happy. but now you need to roll against 5 other people who also want that item. aah shit person B got your item. in a guild run its not a problem because person B won't roll on it again. but in a pug person B is some1 else who also need the same item as you.

and don't forget the amount of ninja rolls/trading lfr bought with us in 4.3 so don't blame blizzard but blame the people for it

---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 06:22 PM ----------

and OP your lfr sucks even more. it would take 15 weeks max to get all max out. and then you go whine at blizzard that there is noting to do because your all geared out.

in lfr you have a change to get the item no matter what happens. sometime you have 2 of the same. that sucks. but thats RNG>

now we go on to normal pugs 25m to keep it some what fair.

boss A has a change (RNG) to drop item B. hey item B drops. yea your verry happy. but now you need to roll against 5 other people who also want that item. aah shit person B got your item. in a guild run its not a problem because person B won't roll on it again. but in a pug person B is some1 else who also need the same item as you.

and don't forget the amount of ninja rolls/trading lfr bought with us in 4.3 so don't blame blizzard but blame the people for it

---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 06:22 PM ----------

and OP your lfr sucks even more. it would take 15 weeks max to get all max out. and then you go whine at blizzard that there is noting to do because your all geared out.

There is no need to compare it with pugs since boss again drops the same amount of loot.

RNG stands for random number generator, thats basically /roll factor. Getting loot is more of a chance factor, as you said it, but ok.

Again, i would be more happy to see item drop and to lose it with /roll then to waste weeks and dont see a single item drop ( looted ) from any boss on many alts and also im using coins. But again, lets assume 2 of the same items drop, 2 ppl only need it and thats it, so both will get item.

I havent, somehow i dont believe Blizz when they tell its hard to code and fix ninja loot when their programmers made entire game, its just that they dont care. But ninja rolls are EZ fixable, they made something similar with new loot system ( you only get gear for spec you are currently in ). So revert back to old loot system and implement that ppl cant roll need for OS just greed + that you cant roll need if you have that item ( like seasonal boss )....

---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 02:31 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Luciferiuz

Your knowledge of statistical probability is awe-inspiring.

Personally I've had 15 items from LFR since launch across two different specs on the same character. I'm happy.

Oh looks who is back... After 6 weeks and about 90 bosses killed statistically i should get more then one item. + its a game of chance, house always win....

Well you didn't, but that is the law of statistics. This is a very simple system which is working as intended.

Your suggestion just leads to people deleting old epics, then going along with their friends to roll on loot that is worse than what they have.

Or you suggest it actually drops normal loot which binds to whoever wins it, which just leads to more complaints about people whose loot never drops.

Also, LFR isn't intended as a main way to get loot etc so complaining about loot from it is a waste of time etc

it's there for people to see content etc

Then it really ought not to drop loot. Since it does though I think it's reasonable to discuss the rate at which one acquires it. Actually my fondest wish is that they embrace the bone headed position that it shouldn't drop loot. In fact the sooner they do this the better. Should cause enough people to leave in a short enough time frame. Should also cause ridiculous ques since without the fucking loot nobody is gonna do. Turn lfr into rbgs or challenge modes. In fact my position on these matters has changed completely. Blizzard if you read this, do everything bone headed thing these people tell you to do. Please shoot yourselves in the foot faster so we can get some real design in.

Well you didn't, but that is the law of statistics. This is a very simple system which is working as intended.

Your suggestion just leads to people deleting old epics, then going along with their friends to roll on loot that is worse than what they have.

Or you suggest it actually drops normal loot which binds to whoever wins it, which just leads to more complaints about people whose loot never drops.

Also, LFR isn't intended as a main way to get loot etc so complaining about loot from it is a waste of time etc

it's there for people to see content etc

Statistic is different, its based on large numbers and you can extrapolate conclusion based on that. Like guessing the same number 5x in a row in a pool of 10 numbers ( set numbers ). So after 10 weeks and killing 100+ bosses ppl should have similar amount of gear from LFR and they dont.

Again EZ fixable, blizzard has info on loot you got years ago, same thing, just check logs, if you got it = you cant click need...

IF boss has loot table of 20 items and drops 6 there is a good chance he wont drop item you need, but the chance for him to drop item you need is larger then it is atm to see looted < insert item name here > ( pug raids and normal raid proves that ). Previous system had only few minor flaws ( ninja looting that is fixable ).

You said it its to see content if that is true then there is no need to see it over and over again, simple as that. Its like a book, would you read same book 10 weeks in a row, no ofc you wont. If its about content then once you do it you are locked and cant do it again, like a quest.

Then it really ought not to drop loot. Since it does though I think it's reasonable to discuss the rate at which one acquires it. Actually my fondest wish is that they embrace the bone headed position that it shouldn't drop loot. In fact the sooner they do this the better. Should cause enough people to leave in a short enough time frame. Should also cause ridiculous ques since without the fucking loot nobody is gonna do. Turn lfr into rbgs or challenge modes. In fact my position on these matters has changed completely. Blizzard if you read this, do everything bone headed thing these people tell you to do. Please shoot yourselves in the foot faster so we can get some real design in.

Try to discuss this without resorting to name calling please. I'm only telling you things which are clearly available on the internet to read.

LFR is a solid source of valor points, that is the "reward" for seeing the content (which is its purpose). This is very similar to how Challenge Modes (another thing which isn't required for progression and is an added bonus) rewards valor points despite being largely about player skill.

The "loot" which has a chance to drop in LFR, is more in the way of a bonus rather than anything else. I've never advocated taking it away, although I think its quality could be lowered to accurately reflect the difficulty, but neither am I going to justify increasing or improving it's drop rate because people like to believe that the main purpose of LFR is for loot which it is not.

Feel free to debate this, but try not to spurt meaningless hyperboles or attack my character personally as I don't appreciate either.

---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 01:34 PM ----------

Originally Posted by markos82

Statistic is different, its based on large numbers and you can extrapolate conclusion based on that. Like guessing the same number 5x in a row in a pool of 10 numbers ( set numbers ). So after 10 weeks and killing 100+ bosses ppl should have similar amount of gear from LFR and they dont.

Well as far as I know the internal roll which is hidden gives loot to anyone who rolls 85+/100 for example. If you have numbers suggesting the loot rate is below 15% across the board I would love to see them.

Originally Posted by markos82

You said it its to see content if that is true then there is no need to see it over and over again, simple as that. Its like a book, would you read same book 10 weeks in a row, no ofc you wont. If its about content then once you do it you are locked and cant do it again, like a quest.

The same reason I still run heroics, I do it for valor points. People enjoy doing bosses more than once believe it or not, it's not always about the reward.

It might be hard to believe but some of us find the enjoyment we get out of playing is it's own reward.

and don't forget the amount of ninja rolls/trading lfr bought with us in 4.3 so don't blame blizzard but blame the people for it

Blizzard allowed it to happen, despite all the evidence from LFD how public groups act. It's their responsibility -- with all that evidence -- to not have released LFR like it was in 4.3. Responsibility is on the creator to build a product that doesn't even damage the game in the process.

After what I experienced on my alt in LFR (level 1 stalking of all things) with gear drops, more so.

Due to the world has changed to the level it is today, nothing made for public groups in WoW can let a mob have it. It will be abused to no end.

From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes.
They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."

RPGs = Randomization, thats just how it has always worked and blizzard refuses to innovate or change the rules. They even refuse to remove racial abilities even though they admit they are stupid but people expect them because thats how RPGs work

Furthermore this very concept has been suggested many times over the years (imagine that) and is why judge badges were invented in the first place, which have evolved to the Valor Points of today. They refused to use such a system because they like loot being random and they like instant rewards for killing a boss instead of just farming it every week to eventually buy something.

I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

Try to discuss this without resorting to name calling please. I'm only telling you things which are clearly available on the internet to read.

LFR is a solid source of valor points, that is the "reward" for seeing the content (which is its purpose). This is very similar to how Challenge Modes (another thing which isn't required for progression and is an added bonus) rewards valor points despite being largely about player skill.

The "loot" which has a chance to drop in LFR, is more in the way of a bonus rather than anything else. I've never advocated taking it away, although I think its quality could be lowered to accurately reflect the difficulty, but neither am I going to justify increasing or improving it's drop rate because people like to believe that the main purpose of LFR is for loot which it is not.

Feel free to debate this, but try not to spurt meaningless hyperboles or attack my character personally as I don't appreciate either.[COLOR="red"]

I didn't insult you, I insulted your position which is boneheaded. I agree though let's take the loot drops and make lfr as popular and widely used as challenge modes.... oh what's that you say? next to nobody is doing challenge modes? awesome. Okay now that we got that bit of stupidity out of the way we can discuss the real problem which is lfr doesn't drop enough loot or loot fast enough. You don't accept this position and furthermore you seem to feel that the quality of the loot should be reduced. Fine. I hope Blizzard listens to you. See what you people don't seem to understand is that telling your fellow players and I might add fellow customers that they should expect less and that they should be happy with what they get (because presumably you feel they are entitled spoiled brats) only pisses them off. When they get pissed off or frustrated they leave and Blizzard looses money. Blizzard doesn't like to loose money. So what happens? Well we get another wild swing between expansions. The writing is on the wall and BONEHEADED philosophies like telling your fellow players to stop whining about loot only exacerbates the situation.

My dearest and most devout wish is that Blizzard listens to every BONEHEADED suggestions that you people espouse so we can get through mists as quickly as possible with as much sub loss as possible in as short a period of time as possible and move on to something better for the world of warcraft. Please continue to insult your fellow customers, tell them why they are wrong to be mad and why this system is better, and cheer and applaud Blizzard for shooting themselves in the foot. In the end changes will come and my suspicion is that you will defend those changes even if they are the exact opposite of what they did before. If they changed lfr loot one bit it wouldn't matter to most of you anyway and yet here you are arguing in favor of the current system anyway...

If Blizzard thinks trying to stretch out content like the lfr, which is killing all of the same 16 bosses every week, for much more than 3 months, their insane. You can only stretch a good thing so far, before it becomes a big long and wide piece of crap.

With the current drop rate of 15%, I hypothethise that far too many people will not be geared up after 3 months of running the lfr, and that people are just going to grow tired, and rather than have the feeling that the lfr took a long time but was very rewarding, they'll remember that they run it to boredom and exhaustion, and still didn't get all they wanted out of it, which will leave a bitter taste in their mouths against the lfr.

For regular raiders this will not matter at all, so this shouldn't concern them. For people who expect that the lfr will be their only raiding experience in this tier, that would leave this tier of content feeling incomplete, and perhaps ruined for them.

All I can say is watch over the coming weeks for the LFR to gain less and less support from the casual audience, and for que times to rise more and more each week as "learned helplessness" sets in to more and more people. If the current system doesn't chance, LFR will yet become almost pointless to que for later on in this tier. I myself have never felt less interested and motivated to run every lfr boss and segment. I would never have missed lfr for a single week during Cata despite the system's flaws.

Thanks to the frustration of the LFR, for the first time in 3 years I'm feeling like there is just other more preductive things to do with my time than playing WOW, and I'd never thought that would happen to me with all the new excitement of MOP. Blizzard has finally found a way to successfully push me away from WoW. Grats Blizz - you get an award for coming up with a new to combat the curse of World of Warcraft Addiction - make something so frustratingly stingy that some players just don't care if they play as much anymore.

Its sure working for me - I only cleared the bosses that could potentially provide tier tokens, the only thing I couldn't get guaranteed just by playing wow for the next 12 weeks and using valor. After that, the odds of getting any kind of reward worth getting are so slim, I just could't find the urge to bother to even que up for the other parts of the lfr. If Blizz doesn't do someting about this, I think this feeling is going to get much worse.

If the LFR is a virtual ghosttown in a month or so, like I predict, and subscriptions start to decline, don't say I didn't predict and warn Blizzard of the impact of the learned helplessness effect that the lfr brings to otherwise loyal casual players. As for me, for what its worth, I get pushed week after week more and more in the direction of cancelling my subscription for the first tme in 3 years. There's just so many games out ther to play that give me a much better expectation of feeling like my playtime was rewarding, not spending hours every week on every toon clearing the same content for virtually no unique and character progressing rewards.

For people like me that are extremely unlucky with drops I have always been a fan of some rewards atleast for the grinding done but I'm unsure if this is the way to go. Feels like 2 valor point system used at once.

and OP your lfr sucks even more. it would take 15 weeks max to get all max out. and then you go whine at blizzard that there is noting to do because your all geared out.

If after 15 weeks of running the lfr and killing the same 16 bosses, I didn't have a full set of lfr quality (i.e. still lower than regular raiding gear) gear, I would be quite dissappointed in Blizzard. I don't mind doing the content I can to get gear, and I don't mind a slow but sure method of character progression, but right now I can't even reasonably expect this ti happen. What seems more likely to happen at the present rate is that I will complete the tier, and feel like its a ripoff incomplete one, because I'll still have several pieces that are only heroic dungeon quality. Most likely, in actual fact, I'll never get that for, because I'll realize long before that, as will many other, that the lfr gear drop system is an excercise in futility!

Also, don't forget that after 15 weeks, Blizzard should already be primed and ready to release new content to do anyways, and the next tier would be just around the corner, so who cares if "gearing out" is still a priority by that point. Gearing out does not need to be a tier long project anyways, there are other things to do in wow, and some of the cooler solo ones are much easier to enjoy in a full set of gear (e.g. looking forward to soloing Kaelthas until Ashes of Alar drops, etc.). My point is that 15 weeks is more than enough to expect that the appropriate level of content be rewarding enough to give people expectation of "gearing out", because that's what the vast majority of mmo players play the game to achieve.

Well as far as I know the internal roll which is hidden gives loot to anyone who rolls 85+/100 for example. If you have numbers suggesting the loot rate is below 15% across the board I would love to see them.

The same reason I still run heroics, I do it for valor points. People enjoy doing bosses more than once believe it or not, it's not always about the reward.

It might be hard to believe but some of us find the enjoyment we get out of playing is it's own reward.

Again, /roll 100x and see how many times will you get 85+, some how i dont think that number is <3. So taking in mind items ppl got that number is less then 15%.....

You can do dungeons more then lfr, there is more to see, valor reward is greater + you get justice points. I enjoy doing it also, that is the reason while my main is in raiding guild, what i dont enjoy is that i have to do it over and over with alts and not get gear....