I don't get why we released Leon. He led the NFC in yards per kick return. Was a focal leader on our team and an amazing, dangerous punt returner. Being a returner is a dangerous job, why not leave Leon there and protect our investment in Percy by leaving him at WR or couple him with Leon on kick returns? I don't think he was getting paid enough to free up a considerable amount of cap room, was he?? I will miss Leon but am excited for Percy too.

first off leon is one of my favorite seahawks.. or was.. he was the starting rb at fsu when i attended there.. but yeah.. he was schedule to make like 2.5 mill this upcoming year.. cutting him frees up just over 2 million in cap space..

I'm surprised Obo is still on the team. I saw somewhere that $82M of the Seahawks cap is on the offensive side of the ball. $2.5M may not seem like much but the team couldn't afford the luxury of carrying Leon's number when they have Harvin and Tate to cover Leon's main contributions. Sidney and Miller are going to have to do something next year to help lower this imbalance as more money starts to shift toward the defense.

Harvin had to take all the snaps Leon would have had as the 3rd RB, along with PR/KR responsibilities. On top of that he will be doing slot and some outside stuff. $12M/yr, expect other folks to get caught in the aftershock. Tate is not going to get paid here unless Rice walks. Baldwin would get an Obo-type deal at best.

Money, and Tate/Harvin can both do PR/KR return duty. It's a business, even though we just gave up a draft pick to release Leon, which I love. Just because it's business doesn't mean it has to be cold.

The trade for Percy Harvin made his role redundant and therefore expendable.

Leon's been great for us. But he's also 30 years old, and releasing him saved Seattle $2.125 million this season alone, not including the savings next year. That is money that will be needed to help pay for Percy's salary, other free agents and draftees, as well as cap rollover to re-sign our own young core players.

As an older running back who did not have a significant role in the offense, combined with the reduced impact of kickoffs due to NFL rule changes, and a lack of breakaway speed—it's pretty clear why he was released. With two starting wide receivers in Golden Tate and Percy Harvin that can handle punt and kickoff return duties, (who are also younger, faster, and more explosive players) it vacates a valuable roster spot that Leon was holding, which could be used for more pressing needs, such as defensive lineman, nickel cornerback, playmakers, or other depth.

Last edited by BattleOfSeattle on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

there ya go diags.. thats what i've been saying.. tate is not gona get paid here.. sidney may not have had a big year last season.. but he was consistantly getting open.. was making good plays on balls in clutch situations. plus he offers a different dynamic when compared to harvin/tate.. those guys are similar receivers.. i've always referred to tate as a poor mans harvin.. but sidney is different.. he's the more prototypical wr with good size/speed/route running n what not.

FreshlySnipes wrote:I don't get why we released Leon. He led the NFC in yards per kick return. Was a focal leader on our team and an amazing, dangerous punt returner. Being a returner is a dangerous job, why not leave Leon there and protect our investment in Percy by leaving him at WR or couple him with Leon on kick returns? I don't think he was getting paid enough to free up a considerable amount of cap room, was he?? I will miss Leon but am excited for Percy too.

1. Being a returner isn't as dangerous as people pretend it is.2. Harvin can be a better KR than Washington was, honestly. Not sure about punt returning, though. 3. He was taking up about $3M in cap room to JUST be a returner (he was never really effective in the RB role).4. Returns are less important with the various rule changes the NFL has implemented the last couple of years.

The thing about a return game is that people forget just how valuable it is.

But at the end of the game, no matter how good your RB or WR, the clock still runs. Someone like Leon could bring us close to FG range with only seconds left. It gave us more options at the end of games, and saved games that might have been out of reach.

Finally, starting drives at the 30 or 40 after the opponents score takes some of the pressure off of the offense. They are not near their own GL, if something goes wrong you have breathing room. Even if the drive dies you can punt and play field position. But driving the length of the field is easier when you cut the field in half.

I have always seen the return game and kickers get undervalued but frankly I have seen a lot of games won because of one or the other.

I suppose you can say we have Harvin we didn't need him, but I am not sure how much of a price you can put on not having to fix what isn't broken. Our return game was one of our key weapons and now it is a question mark.

I know we needed the space, but you don't remove one of the top players in their field, that was also a positive and effective locker-room presence, and expect not to lose anything.

BattleOfSeattle wrote:The trade for Percy Harvin made his role redundant and therefore expendable.

Leon's been great for us. But he's also 30 years old, and releasing him saved Seattle $2.125 million this season alone, not including the savings next year. That is money that will be needed to help pay for Percy's salary, other free agents and draftees, as well as cap rollover to re-sign our own young core players.

As an older running back who did not have a significant role in the offense, combined with the reduced impact of kickoffs due to NFL rule changes, and a lack of breakaway speed—it's pretty clear why he was released. With two starting wide receivers in Golden Tate and Percy Harvin that can handle punt and kickoff return duties, (who are also younger, faster, and more explosive players) it vacates a valuable roster spot that Leon was holding, which could be used for more pressing needs, such as defensive lineman, nickel cornerback, playmakers, or other depth.

i agree with the main parts of your post.. except for 2 things.. i dont really want harvin returning kicks with the amount were paying him and his value in the offense.. i think it will fall to someone else on the team or maybe one of our draft picks.. and 2....... leon doesn't have breakaway speed? i think you need to check up on that logic.. thats one of his best weapons.. he isn't really the shiftiest guy.. he was just good at seeing an opening making one cut and using burst to try and get through the opening before it closed.. a guy lacking breakaway speed doesn't have 8 kick/punt returns for tds...

drdiags wrote:I'm surprised Obo is still on the team. I saw somewhere that $82M of the Seahawks cap is on the offensive side of the ball. $2.5M may not seem like much but the team couldn't afford the luxury of carrying Leon's number when they have Harvin and Tate to cover Leon's main contributions. Sidney and Miller are going to have to do something next year to help lower this imbalance as more money starts to shift toward the defense.

Harvin had to take all the snaps Leon would have had as the 3rd RB, along with PR/KR responsibilities. On top of that he will be doing slot and some outside stuff. $12M/yr, expect other folks to get caught in the aftershock. Tate is not going to get paid here unless Rice walks. Baldwin would get an Obo-type deal at best.

The difference is that Leon's money had a roster bonus attached that we'd have to pay if he was on the roster beyond a specified date, so his cut had to come sooner. We don't have to pay Obamanu until the season starts, so we can wait to cut him later as long as we stay under the cap.

Thought this was a nice little nugget of info for those of us that had much respect for Leon and those of you that are angry he's gone. The Seahawks still have class even in the business side of these things

@RossTuckerNFL: Leon Washington just told us on @SiriusXMNFL that Bucs tried to trade for him but Seahawks granted him his release

We could have gotten some compensation for Leon but he didn't want to go there so we granted him his release so he can choose where he wants to go. Thanks Leon for everything, and thanks Pete and John for being good at what you do but also compassionate to those who've given so much to this organization.

TwistedHusky wrote:Sometimes it is not the price of things but the value that matters most.

Leon was a great value, even at the price.

That he was, but if his role was going to be even further reduced by the addition of Harvin, then it makes sense that maybe he'd want to move on and this move is mutually beneficial. I don't think he'll have trouble catching on with another team.

redhawk253 wrote:i agree with the main parts of your post.. except for 2 things.. i dont really want harvin returning kicks with the amount were paying him and his value in the offense.. i think it will fall to someone else on the team or maybe one of our draft picks.. and 2....... leon doesn't have breakaway speed? i think you need to check up on that logic.. thats one of his best weapons.. he isn't really the shiftiest guy.. he was just good at seeing an opening making one cut and using burst to try and get through the opening before it closed.. a guy lacking breakaway speed doesn't have 8 kick/punt returns for tds...

Percy Harvin is a weapon, and that is why he was acquired. He's extremely versatile, and one of the most explosive players in the league. You want the ball in his hands as often as possible. Considering how much draft capital we relinquished in order to obtain the rights to him, as well as the financial commitment we've given him—why wouldn't you try to maximize his attributes and value? You don't give up a first, third, and seventh round pick, in addition to $25.5 million guaranteed to not be used in as many ways as his talent allows.

I think you're confusing "lack of breakaway speed" with "slow", which is certainly not what I was insinuating. Leon is still plenty fast, but he does not have the kind of fifth-gear speed that Percy does, at not least not at this point in his career. I can recall numerous occasions where Leon was tackled in the open field, whereas someone with more burst and speed in the same position would have taken it to the house. That's not necessarily a slight on Leon. He was a Pro-Bowl returner for a reason. But again, it's a combination of factors that played into this decision. The only thing I wish the front office did differently here was trade Leon to the highest bidder, but it was a classy move to allow him to go to a team of his choosing.

Well, one thing that isn't really being discussed is that Leon is set to make a lot of money this year for a 30 y/o 3rd down running back who at this point is really only a return guy. What I imagine might have happened is that we decided he's not worth the money to us (given we have Harvin, Tate and others who can return kicks, that's fair) so they released him (and his fat contract). Now, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that he has to clear waivers before he's a UFA. So the way I can imagine it happening is that they granted him the opportunity to see if anyone is interested in taking on his current contract, or at the least willing to offer him something better than what we were willing to offer. If nobody is, I can see Leon come back for a deal somewhere closer to the vet minimum.

How many times have we seen guys leave and come back in the past? I think LeRoy Hill has done it at least 4 times in the PC era. I'm not holding my breath that Leon comes back mind you (because somebody could very well decide he's worth the money... I think he IS worth the money) but it's a possibility that he's not done here...

Don't know where I saw/heard it, but I understand the Buccaneers were wanting to trade for him and we turned it down to release him instead. That says we'd rather let him test the market and possibly get a better deal or sign back with us than snag a draft pick out of it. Pretty decent move, I'd say.

And yes, Pete's said he has no problem at all putting Harvin back for returns. While Leon was great at them, so's Harvin, and that puts Leon in a bad position, skills-wise. His one solid contribution to the team just got undermined.

World Champion Seattle Seahawks football. It's an addiction, and there is no cure.Les Norton - gone but never forgotten. Rest in blue and green peace, my friend.

Leon was signed to a contract at a point in time where KR specialists had a bigger impact on football games. I think it wasn't even a month after we signed him to that contract, that the NFL neutered that advantage to a shadow of it's former self.

KRs are still important. But not to the degree they were in 2011. His value was severely lessened through no fault of his own. And it was apparent last year, that he wasn't really able to augment his value by being a viable change of pace back. His success was extremely modest as a RB.

redhawk253 wrote:i agree with the main parts of your post.. except for 2 things.. i dont really want harvin returning kicks with the amount were paying him and his value in the offense.. i think it will fall to someone else on the team or maybe one of our draft picks.. and 2....... leon doesn't have breakaway speed? i think you need to check up on that logic.. thats one of his best weapons.. he isn't really the shiftiest guy.. he was just good at seeing an opening making one cut and using burst to try and get through the opening before it closed.. a guy lacking breakaway speed doesn't have 8 kick/punt returns for tds...

Percy Harvin is a weapon, and that is why he was acquired. He's extremely versatile, and one of the most explosive players in the league. You want the ball in his hands as often as possible. Considering how much draft capital we relinquished in order to obtain the rights to him, as well as the financial commitment we've given him—why wouldn't you try to maximize his attributes and value? You don't give up a first, third, and seventh round pick, in addition to $25.5 million guaranteed to not be used in as many ways as his talent allows.

I think you're confusing "lack of breakaway speed" with "slow", which is certainly not what I was insinuating. Leon is still plenty fast, but he does not have the kind of fifth-gear speed that Percy does, at not least not at this point in his career. I can recall numerous occasions where Leon was tackled in the open field, whereas someone with more burst and speed in the same position would have taken it to the house. That's not necessarily a slight on Leon. He was a Pro-Bowl returner for a reason. But again, it's a combination of factors that played into this decision. The only thing I wish the front office did differently here was trade Leon to the highest bidder, but it was a classy move to allow him to go to a team of his choosing.

you just supported my argument for not using harvin in kickoff returns.. one of the most dangerous plays in the game.. you don't put a guy that is going to be implemented in the offense in a ton of different ways and have so much value and importance in that sense on a kickoff return where its common knowledge many guys get injured. he is going to be more valuable to the team in the offense than on returns.. we didn't give up 3 picks and 25.5 million in guarantees to a guy because we like'd the added ability to return kicks which many different players can take care of.. this isn't to say they will never use harvin in any returns.. i can imagine scenarios where were down with little time left and it would give us a boost.. but i dont think we can necessarily asume that he's going to be returning all or even a majority of our kicks.

and i still think you are mistaken on leon.. you didn't say comparatively the same speed as harvin.. you said "he lacks breakaway speed" theres only one time comes to mind leon was caught in "open field" from BEHIND... and that was when he slowed up and started to show boat in the panthers game where he got tackled on the one yard line... any other time you are referring to he is being caught by a player coming at an angle... leon definately does not "lack breakaway speed" as evidenced by his returns this past season.

Bottom line Pete Carroll wants to use Harvin on Kickoffs, I think Pete's earned the trust of us all to do what he wants. So far he's done a damn good job with this team. You play the best guys at every position no matter what. That's how he's built this team (on competition). Why would he change that now?

DJrmb wrote:Thought this was a nice little nugget of info for those of us that had much respect for Leon and those of you that are angry he's gone. The Seahawks still have class even in the business side of these things

@RossTuckerNFL: Leon Washington just told us on @SiriusXMNFL that Bucs tried to trade for him but Seahawks granted him his release

We could have gotten some compensation for Leon but he didn't want to go there so we granted him his release so he can choose where he wants to go. Thanks Leon for everything, and thanks Pete and John for being good at what you do but also compassionate to those who've given so much to this organization.

CANHawk wrote:Well, one thing that isn't really being discussed is that Leon is set to make a lot of money this year for a 30 y/o 3rd down running back who at this point is really only a return guy. What I imagine might have happened is that we decided he's not worth the money to us (given we have Harvin, Tate and others who can return kicks, that's fair) so they released him (and his fat contract). Now, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that he has to clear waivers before he's a UFA. So the way I can imagine it happening is that they granted him the opportunity to see if anyone is interested in taking on his current contract, or at the least willing to offer him something better than what we were willing to offer. If nobody is, I can see Leon come back for a deal somewhere closer to the vet minimum.

How many times have we seen guys leave and come back in the past? I think LeRoy Hill has done it at least 4 times in the PC era. I'm not holding my breath that Leon comes back mind you (because somebody could very well decide he's worth the money... I think he IS worth the money) but it's a possibility that he's not done here...

No. He's been in the league too long. He is UFA and can sign with any team.

DJrmb wrote:Thought this was a nice little nugget of info for those of us that had much respect for Leon and those of you that are angry he's gone. The Seahawks still have class even in the business side of these things

@RossTuckerNFL: Leon Washington just told us on @SiriusXMNFL that Bucs tried to trade for him but Seahawks granted him his release

We could have gotten some compensation for Leon but he didn't want to go there so we granted him his release so he can choose where he wants to go. Thanks Leon for everything, and thanks Pete and John for being good at what you do but also compassionate to those who've given so much to this organization.

Unless he goes to the Niners

If the front office thought Leon would do something like that don't you think they would have followed through with the trade they had lined up with Tampa?

We're talking one of the greatest returners of all time here. I don't see that the money he made was too much. Look up punt returners. Harvin's not on that list. Kickoff returners. Nope. Leon is. Lest we forget:

What did that little blurb just say at the end there? Oh yeah, 2nd ALL TIME in return TD's. Had three TD returns last year.

Why let him walk? Harving is great and I'm as jacked as the next guy, but he's a downgrade on special teams. He's not the greatest returner of all time. And Leon is #2.

Richard Sherman doesn't just wanna get in your head, he wants to build a vacation home there.

R. Sherman: "I don't want to be an island. I want to be a tourist attraction. You come, I take your money & you go."

This is the NFL....Big business. And being that it is a business these types of cuts/releases are more commonplace. Get used to it. You don't have to like it and I don't think there is one fan here that wanted this, but there it is.

The kickoffs were going out the back of the endzones way too much last year, and that isn't changing. Paying a guy to watch them does not make sense from a business standpoint.

Besides money his roster spot is extremely valuable. Harvin can return kicks very well AND he can do several other things. We've talked about just how hard it is going to be to make this roster at this point, so why clog up a spot for a guy who can just do one thing that we should be able to get out of players who are also capable receivers or perhaps a capable RB we can pick up?

What would be more valuable? Harvin + a dynamic, explosive change of pace back or Harvin + Leon who can return kicks? Harvin + a dynamic 6th WR with a ton of upside that may be able to turn into a starter or Harvin + a dedicated kick returner? Harvin + more depth on the d-line where we sorely need to take shots on potential pass rushers or Harvin + a return specialist?

I love Leon. He's a great guy, great player, great at what he does, but he became redundant when we acquired Harvin, and simply can make far better use of that roster spot, because there aren't many.

I honestly don't think 2.5 mil is too much for one of the top returners in the league. He lead the NFC in return yardage last year, you don't do that when you're slow. He was 3rd in the league for average.

I wish he could've broken the record as a Seahawk, but signing Harvin to a big deal, you know you're going to start to see guys leave. I understand why it was done. I don't like it, but I understand it.

You have to cut somewhere. Might as well start where the guy who's being paid all the money can earn it as well.

CANHawk wrote:Well, one thing that isn't really being discussed is that Leon is set to make a lot of money this year for a 30 y/o 3rd down running back who at this point is really only a return guy. What I imagine might have happened is that we decided he's not worth the money to us (given we have Harvin, Tate and others who can return kicks, that's fair) so they released him (and his fat contract). Now, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that he has to clear waivers before he's a UFA. So the way I can imagine it happening is that they granted him the opportunity to see if anyone is interested in taking on his current contract, or at the least willing to offer him something better than what we were willing to offer. If nobody is, I can see Leon come back for a deal somewhere closer to the vet minimum.

How many times have we seen guys leave and come back in the past? I think LeRoy Hill has done it at least 4 times in the PC era. I'm not holding my breath that Leon comes back mind you (because somebody could very well decide he's worth the money... I think he IS worth the money) but it's a possibility that he's not done here...

No. He's been in the league too long. He is UFA and can sign with any team.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. Point still stands though, if he doesn't get a better deal than we are willing to give he could still be back.

SalishHawkFan wrote:We're talking one of the greatest returners of all time here. I don't see that the money he made was too much. Look up punt returners. Harvin's not on that list. Kickoff returners. Nope. Leon is. Lest we forget:

What did that little blurb just say at the end there? Oh yeah, 2nd ALL TIME in return TD's. Had three TD returns last year.

Why let him walk? Harving is great and I'm as jacked as the next guy, but he's a downgrade on special teams. He's not the greatest returner of all time. And Leon is #2.

Jerry Rice is the #1 WR off All Time. Maybe we should bring him out of retirement?

That is an old video, Leon only had 1 TD last year on returns (both punts and kickoffs). Players get old, Leon had clearly lost a step last year. There were 3 or 4 times that everyone at my house looked at each other and said "the old Leon would have scored on that". That's not saying he's garbage, Leon is still a very goo, experienced, and fast return man. But at this point in their careers Leon is on the downturn as Harvin is just getting started.

SalishHawkFan wrote:We're talking one of the greatest returners of all time here. I don't see that the money he made was too much. Look up punt returners. Harvin's not on that list. Kickoff returners. Nope. Leon is. Lest we forget:

What did that little blurb just say at the end there? Oh yeah, 2nd ALL TIME in return TD's. Had three TD returns last year.

Why let him walk? Harving is great and I'm as jacked as the next guy, but he's a downgrade on special teams. He's not the greatest returner of all time. And Leon is #2.

Downgrade on special teams?? Please.

I"m sure the fact that Leon has been in the league 6 or 7 years longer has NOTHING to do with the fact he has more kickoff TD's

CANHawk wrote:Well, one thing that isn't really being discussed is that Leon is set to make a lot of money this year for a 30 y/o 3rd down running back who at this point is really only a return guy. What I imagine might have happened is that we decided he's not worth the money to us (given we have Harvin, Tate and others who can return kicks, that's fair) so they released him (and his fat contract). Now, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that he has to clear waivers before he's a UFA. So the way I can imagine it happening is that they granted him the opportunity to see if anyone is interested in taking on his current contract, or at the least willing to offer him something better than what we were willing to offer. If nobody is, I can see Leon come back for a deal somewhere closer to the vet minimum.

How many times have we seen guys leave and come back in the past? I think LeRoy Hill has done it at least 4 times in the PC era. I'm not holding my breath that Leon comes back mind you (because somebody could very well decide he's worth the money... I think he IS worth the money) but it's a possibility that he's not done here...

No. He's been in the league too long. He is UFA and can sign with any team.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. Point still stands though, if he doesn't get a better deal than we are willing to give he could still be back.

TwistedHusky wrote:The thing about a return game is that people forget just how valuable it is.

But at the end of the game, no matter how good your RB or WR, the clock still runs. Someone like Leon could bring us close to FG range with only seconds left. It gave us more options at the end of games, and saved games that might have been out of reach.

Finally, starting drives at the 30 or 40 after the opponents score takes some of the pressure off of the offense. They are not near their own GL, if something goes wrong you have breathing room. Even if the drive dies you can punt and play field position. But driving the length of the field is easier when you cut the field in half.

I have always seen the return game and kickers get undervalued but frankly I have seen a lot of games won because of one or the other.

I suppose you can say we have Harvin we didn't need him, but I am not sure how much of a price you can put on not having to fix what isn't broken. Our return game was one of our key weapons and now it is a question mark.

I know we needed the space, but you don't remove one of the top players in their field, that was also a positive and effective locker-room presence, and expect not to lose anything.

How is replacing an aging return man with one of the game's most electric return men making it a question mark??

I love Leon and wish him the best, but we just upgraded, pure and simple.

redhawk253 wrote:i agree with the main parts of your post.. except for 2 things.. i dont really want harvin returning kicks with the amount were paying him and his value in the offense.. i think it will fall to someone else on the team or maybe one of our draft picks.. and 2....... leon doesn't have breakaway speed? i think you need to check up on that logic.. thats one of his best weapons.. he isn't really the shiftiest guy.. he was just good at seeing an opening making one cut and using burst to try and get through the opening before it closed.. a guy lacking breakaway speed doesn't have 8 kick/punt returns for tds...

Percy Harvin is a weapon, and that is why he was acquired. He's extremely versatile, and one of the most explosive players in the league. You want the ball in his hands as often as possible. Considering how much draft capital we relinquished in order to obtain the rights to him, as well as the financial commitment we've given him—why wouldn't you try to maximize his attributes and value? You don't give up a first, third, and seventh round pick, in addition to $25.5 million guaranteed to not be used in as many ways as his talent allows.

I think you're confusing "lack of breakaway speed" with "slow", which is certainly not what I was insinuating. Leon is still plenty fast, but he does not have the kind of fifth-gear speed that Percy does, at not least not at this point in his career. I can recall numerous occasions where Leon was tackled in the open field, whereas someone with more burst and speed in the same position would have taken it to the house. That's not necessarily a slight on Leon. He was a Pro-Bowl returner for a reason. But again, it's a combination of factors that played into this decision. The only thing I wish the front office did differently here was trade Leon to the highest bidder, but it was a classy move to allow him to go to a team of his choosing.

you just supported my argument for not using harvin in kickoff returns.. one of the most dangerous plays in the game.. you don't put a guy that is going to be implemented in the offense in a ton of different ways and have so much value and importance in that sense on a kickoff return where its common knowledge many guys get injured. he is going to be more valuable to the team in the offense than on returns.. we didn't give up 3 picks and 25.5 million in guarantees to a guy because we like'd the added ability to return kicks which many different players can take care of.. this isn't to say they will never use harvin in any returns.. i can imagine scenarios where were down with little time left and it would give us a boost.. but i dont think we can necessarily asume that he's going to be returning all or even a majority of our kicks.

and i still think you are mistaken on leon.. you didn't say comparatively the same speed as harvin.. you said "he lacks breakaway speed" theres only one time comes to mind leon was caught in "open field" from BEHIND... and that was when he slowed up and started to show boat in the panthers game where he got tackled on the one yard line... any other time you are referring to he is being caught by a player coming at an angle... leon definately does not "lack breakaway speed" as evidenced by his returns this past season.

Kickoffs aren't labelled the most dangerous play in the game because the KR specialist gets nailed. It because the return team blockers are taught to stand still and let the kicking team smash right into them. Most injuries happen right there. where the return man's blockers are motionless and absorbing sprinting coverage teams ramming into them.