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Re: Senator Rand Paul's Epic Filibuster: Reads 'Alice in Wonderland'

Originally Posted by AreteCourage

The problem with suspicion and drones comes when there isn't substantial evidence...but the executive moves ahead with the strike anyway...there are no arrests or chance of surrender with drones. It is execution. We have a history of giving due process to the most heinous people to ever live.

We cannot condone using drones on citizens in this country just on suspicion.

Re: Senator Rand Paul's Epic Filibuster: Reads 'Alice in Wonderland'

Originally Posted by sangha

I don't see how those #'s contradict my claim about the left

The premise of your position is that Democrats are not the left? You realize that it would be impossible for me to find a "not democrat but left approval rating", right? What do you want, his approval rating among communists?

Re: Senator Rand Paul's Epic Filibuster: Reads 'Alice in Wonderland'

Originally Posted by sangha

Drones would not be used based on suspicion. Holder made that clear

NDAA provision state otherwise which is a piece of legislation that can be used in these instances.

Section 1021(b)(2) of the law allows for detention of citizens and permanent residents taken into custody in the U.S. on “suspicion of providing substantial support” to groups engaged in hostilities against the U.S. such as al-Qaeda and the Taliban

I'm not worried so much about this administration, but the precedent it sets for future ones. Suspicion is not enough to kill someone without due process.

"It has come to my attention that you have now asked an additional question: Does the president have the authority to use a weaponized drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on American soil? The answer to that question is no."

Re: Senator Rand Paul's Epic Filibuster: Reads 'Alice in Wonderland'

Originally Posted by ecofarm

The premise of your position is that Democrats and not the left? You realize that it would be impossible for me to find a "not democrat but left approval rating", right? What do you want, his approval rating among communists?

Yes, that is my premise and I understand the difficulty in coming up with a credible #. However, research would show that the left has been criticizing Obama from the beginning. I doubt it would be hard to find criticism from the left relating to the fact that Obama never fought for single payer, and abandoned the public option.

Re: Senator Rand Paul's Epic Filibuster: Reads 'Alice in Wonderland'

Originally Posted by AreteCourage

1. People like you who simply brush away Paul's words as crazy are part of the problem. You don't see an issue with issues that every American should take seriously.

2. NDAA provisions, Patriot Act, the Executive Orders....are among many things the government has done to attack our rights to liberty. Yet, you remain hostile to those who actually give it some thought.

3. America has a tradition of distrust towards the government. To blindly trust that they will do the right thing is beyond the realm of ignorance.

1. Oh yeah? Have you not read anything I have talked about on this thread or are you just brushing away my words and claiming that I am part of some problem? Just because libertarians see a problem with this or agree with it doesn't mean I have to! It's amazing that only libertarians are even on this thread. I see very few other leanings on this thread.

2. It is you who assume that I haven't given these any thought for some strange reason. Can't take criticism much?

3. Really? Then why did your heroes the founding fathers create one? Oh yea and questioning the government is amazing even if it is a silly hypothetical open ended scenario....

Re: Senator Rand Paul's Epic Filibuster: Reads 'Alice in Wonderland'

Originally Posted by sangha

Yes, that is my premise and I understand the difficulty in coming up with a credible #. However, research would show that the left has been criticizing Obama from the beginning. I doubt it would be hard to find criticism from the left relating to the fact that Obama never fought for single payer, and abandoned the public option.

Well, I was referring to what the rest of us mean when we say 'left', that being the democrat party (and their fringe). If you're going to define "the left" as socialists and communists, to the exclusion of the democrat party, then I don't see the point in your argument at all and it certainly has no bearing whatsoever upon mine.

Re: Senator Rand Paul's Epic Filibuster: Reads 'Alice in Wonderland'

There is NO issue of using deadly force against those doing an attack nor against those imminently undertaking one.

This is the issue. You (or another American sitting beside you) are dining at a sidewalk cafe in San Francisco overlooking the bay. The government - accurately or inaccurately - believes you are planning a terrorist attack in the future. Does the Executive Branch of government have the Constitutional authority to rush in an armed drone to kill you (or the person beside you)?

The Executive Branch and its agencies say yes, but trust them not to use that power wrecklessly. Paul's claim is that this can not be done against Americans on American soil as it violates due process protections.

What has made this topical now is the nomination of a new head of the CIA - who would like be over the agency giving such advice to the President - and the Department of Homeland Security ordering a bunch of such drones for domestic surveillance and usage. It is not Obama being president, just like indefinite imprisonment of Americans without a trial under Bush was not partisan against Bush. At least not to any but hardcore militant political party partisans on both sides.