Mark Edward Davis wrote:Has anyone on this forum actually married a women that you first contacted through letter-writing?

I think letter writing is old school and a waste of time. But email + chat/webcam/phone contact works great. A few years ago one of my buddies wrote about 25 girls on Latin Euro and only heard back from 4 of them. OF those, only 2 seemed serious.

Personally, I have the best luck finding the ones I like online (using a site with multiple clear photos and height/weight data like AFA or Latin Euro) to find them, contacting them via email and/or telephone, getting to know them online through Skype or webcam, and then going to the country to meet the best ones.

I am picky about specs and this method allows me to meet 5-15 girls extremely high quality leads in a location. The photos, webcams, email/messenger chats plus telephone work allow me to find out which ones I am seriously attracted to and also compatible with personality wise. It also gives them a chance to decide whether or not they are interested in me. With 1-3 months of such work prior to visiting a country, I am able to maximize high quality dates - girls I am attracted to who click with me to a certain extent.

If I wanted to, I could spend less time, not filter as much, and perhaps meet 2-3 girls per day. But this strategy is a lot less enjoyable for me. 60-80% of such dates are boring cus I didn't do my homework upfront.

Filtering and rapport building are key. If you just jump into a country for a week or so, meet a bunch of women for the first time, I think its pretty overwhelming and confusing. In Cartegena, the girls who went to the AFA socials were for the most part, entirely available for dating through the various agencies which charged a tiny fraction of what a social would cost. And you could see them all in books or videos by spending 2 or 3 hours going through the materials. The AFA ones were also available for contact online from your home country.

Bottom line, road shows to a few cities for socials are a very expensive crap shoot. Using current technology to meet girls in the country/city of your choice and get to know them first is very cheap. You have control and can decide how many girls you want to meet and arrange dates before you go. Socials are for guys who don't mind spending a lot more money, don't have the time to invest beforehand, and/or need to have their hand constantly held once they cross US borders into the big bad place called 'abroad'.

BTW, my friend who wrote the Latin Euro girls ended up meeting an Asian girl online, corresponding via webcam, email, and telephone for many months, and then going to Asia to bring her back to US and marry her on fiance visa. It worked out well.

Letter-Writing is a waist of time in 97% of the cases. After talking with tour guides and owners of dating sites the answer to this one question seems to come back the same: "Of all the guys who write letters how many of them ever get face to face with someone they wrote to overseas?" The answer has been either 3% or 5% of all guys who write letters ever get on a plane. To me, this is one of the most poisonous elements to our movement. It breeds false representation, distrust, and fraud. The ladies know that the chances of these guy coming is almost zero - so what can they get out of it? Nothing unless they join the growing ranks of those who will try to cutsy up their letters to try to get some cash or gifts. What have they got to lose? For the guys, it just re-enforces the presumption that all of the girls from other countries are only after money. It does more harm then good.

Flying over to meet just one girl you have been writing to is rarely successful. I'm not saying it's never successful, but nearly half of the guys I've spoken with who came back bitter and frustrated with dating overseas went this route. They fell in love with someone based on remote communication and imagined what it would be like in person. When they got to meet her in person the chemistry didn't match their fantasy expectation. Or worse, the translator was writing most of the letters so the girl was only half up to speed on who he was at all! When he quickly realizes that this may not be the one, he then has to scramble to find more ladies to date.

Group dating increases the odds of finding someone you spark with. Group dating, like tours, has its good points and bad. Professional daters can infiltrate the ranks of the girls and try to pick off a few starry-eyed hopeful men of a few bucks. They leave bitter and pissed off guys in their wake. Likewise, prostitute hunters can come along these tours with the false pretense of being marriage-minded. They leave better and pissed off girls in their wake. However, a sincere minded man, who is educated as to the pit falls, can find sincere-minded women in these group settings. Anyone dating overseas should date a number of different ladies to increase his chances of finding someone that lights his fire.

Most men who marry someone overseas meet their wives for the first time in-person - not from a writing. Most stories of married couples are that they just happened to have met while he was there - almost like a 'chance encounter'. I met my wife at a social, but many guys meet their lady in other ways; the lobby of the hotel, at a cafe, on the street. So here's the difficulty, how do you convince a guy to go when all you can tell him is that you'll probably just meet her because you are there? Yet it's the truth. According to the other tour guides I've interviewed (a total of four men), the common consesus was that 25% of men find someone they marry on their first trip - although they may not develop the relationship fully until after a second trip. Half of the men find women of interest they continued to correspond with after they get home and no one is certain what happens in those cases. 25% of men come back having not had a spark with any of the women they dated. How do you get someone to go if the current system only produces success in 25% of the cases and those are all from just showing up?

The current system lends itself toward the outgoing man. It's hard to break through cultural barriers. It feels awkward to wonder what to say and do - or not do. There are no good ice-breakers. Therefore, the alpha male and the expressive personality type tend to be more successful because they will just act and not worry about these barriers. There needs to be more ways for men and women to become familiar with the other side, to break down the barriers, have fun, and create an atmosphere that fosters communication and connection that will increase the chances of success for men and women alike.

Comments?

Letter-Writing is a waist of time in 97% of the cases. First, letter writing is virtually obsolete. But supposing you mean email/chat/webcam/Skype and the numbers are equally dismal, this is probably a result of a large number of guys who are not able to or interested in travelling overseas but would still like to date a foreign girl online. Some people are content with cyber relationships given the much lower hassle factor and financial cost. But this does not mean technology canâ€™t be put to good use by guys who are sincere about travelling abroad to meet girls at a later stage. Some of my friends met their wives or girlfriends this way.

Flying over to meet just one girl you have been writing to is rarely successful. Perhaps. So why not fly over to meet many girls you have been writing to. Start very broad, slowly cut-down during stage 1 as you correspond from your country for a few weeks, travel to target country to start stage 2 where you meet girls and slowly cut-down the group to the best fit (if your looking for some kind of monogamous relationship).

Group dating increases the odds of finding someone you spark with. Depends on the person. Iâ€™m leery of group dating cus what sometimes happens is that 80% of the guys are vying for the most attractive 10% of the girls. The competition can get pretty uncomfortable. I love hanging-out with like minded guys but I saw this dynamic play out and it can get pretty nasty. If you are the life of the party and shine or stand-out in groups, you might like this method. Certain other types might like it too. Since the girls on some of the socials complain about the high average age and poor physical appearance of the guys, if you are younger and relatively good looking, you might feel you would stand-out in such an environment.

Most men who marry someone overseas meet their wives for the first time in-person - not from a writing. Many of the western guys I met in Latin America met who later got married met their wives in person through an agency or other means. But others met them online. I donâ€™t think meeting them online first will pollute your chances of making a connection with them as long as you do eventually meet her in person.

The current system lends itself toward the outgoing man. True in America which is what I think you met. In many other countries, I think action is what helps the most. Aggressively put yourself out there online and eventually in person. That will greatly increase your odds of finding the relationship(s) you are seeking.

This is going to be a hot topic. I've refined my original post to talk about letter-writing for now - But I LOVE the deposit idea. I had just been considering such things. Yes, it places the guy on a different level if the ladies know he's serious and coming. What if we could have that deposit be good for any of our trips? WHAT IF WE COULD GUARANTEE THAT HE FINDS A WIFE OR THE SECOND TRIP IS ON US?

I really wish that I had the money to participate in one of these "trips". how much do they cost, on average? And how long is the trip?

Wielding the blade of evil's bane, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light. This man, who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Men. The man's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend...

This is going to be a hot topic. I've refined my original post to talk about letter-writing for now - But I LOVE the deposit idea. I had just been considering such things. Yes, it places the guy on a different level if the ladies know he's serious and coming. What if we could have that deposit be good for any of our trips? WHAT IF WE COULD GUARANTEE THAT HE FINDS A WIFE OR THE SECOND TRIP IS ON US?

If you do this, be prepared to handle many guys who don't necessarily want to find a wife but feel 2 trips for the price of 1 is good value. Some may be inclined to do the socials for dating and fun.

Personally, if your price point is even close to AFA's, I think the price-per-social is way too high even with a free second trip which would effectively cut the price in half.

In the earliest days, I think the socials attracted a lot of young and hot women. But after a couple of them come through town, word gets around that most of the guys are older and that many are less attractive. So the older and more desperate ones keep coming while the cream drops-out. A lot of the feedback I've read from the guys in Europe seem to suggest this dynamic anyway. I saw a similar dynamic evolve with the dating agencies in Cali, Colombia. Familiarity quickly kills the exotic appeal of western men to curious local girls.

Socials should be a lot cheaper. Who wants to pay several hundred dollars for 2-3 hours at the ball and be obligated to attend several of these events on one trip pushing the social cost into the US$2-4K range or more? This type of pricing is geared for guys with lots of spare money, very little time, and perhaps a need to be babied when overseas.

This has been the most specific, honest and productive conversation string I've seen on the topic.

momopi - You make a HUGE point when you said that TIMES ARE CHANGING. The way we communicate has gone from paper letters to live Skype. I personally believe the current system of letter-writing through agencies as 'gate-keepers' will die a slow death. If people can connect in real time with video for free, why would they pay $20 for a round-trip letter? The current answer for that is language barrier and common platform. That will be solved shortly. I appreciate having you as a fellow advisor here.

djfourmoney - Your points are pure common sense: 1) Write ahead of time but focus on meeting in person. 2) There are ways to work and live overseas (Mr. Peabody makes a good point here that jobs in developing countries don't pay. But working in Germany and going back and forth sound like a great strategy). 3) Keep letter writing to a short window of time or the ladies won't believe you're really coming. 4) Economics keep younger men from going. 5) The ladies accurately observe that there aren't enough men and they are older.

This comment I appreciated:

"I think what Mark is doing is commendable because its basically AFA business model 2.0 from what I can tell. Remove the catalog of women, letter writing and force the men to take the trip instead. It removes the contenders from the pretenders for sure . . ."

You're going to do just fine. Let's connect for lunch sometime. I'm around the corner in Anaheim!

Rock - I'm also greatly appreciative that you're here and on the advisory team. I'd love to have a conversation with you about all of your comments. Thank you for taking such time. I see the current system exactly as you described it.

I'm profoundly impressed with six words you said, "Filtering and rapport building are key." I'm not sure there is a simpler way to summarize the entire process. Any new system should be built on these two components.

the_hero_of_time - save up and wait until you can afford it. We won't kid you. It will cost you $7k to $10k including first trip, visa work, and both of your travel when you're ready to bring her home. But picking the person you wake up to every morning is one of the most important decisions you'll make and it's worth it. But Winston is right, saving is one of the hardest disciplines there is.

Mr. Peabody - thanks for your comments too. I love the idea of more intimate arrangements. I'm limiting my romance tour in May to 20 guys, but if it was just 10 to 15 that would be fine too. I'd adjust the events accordingly. It's about having the right kinds of men going - marriage minded, can afford it, and not a jerk.

Mark I'll say its hard to save for several reasons but I''ll outline a few since the last decade or so has been spent talking to guys between 20-30 years old.

1) You barely finish High School because as you know our schools are under performing at unprecedented levels. You take whatever jobs you can get, a study recently done by Stony Broke University said in cites like Los Angeles you need to make $30,000 a year to live economically unstressed. These are the people unofficially under-employed in California.

If you make less how do those ends ever met? You live at home with your parents, saving that $700-$1500 in rent every month. But after a certain age that's socially unacceptable. All your friends are conformist so they constantly harp on you that you need to your own place. In the meantime that money you've saved on rent allow you to buy a more expensive car.

This is what Winston is talking about. Americans are not taught at a young enough age to save money or how the banking system really works. You need to get back to encouraging savings, not just when the economy hits the fan but before that. When the crisis hit, the savings rate of Americans was below Zero.

2) A culture of fear. The Neo-Cons have built up a successful "War of Nerves" (taken from Capt Scarlet) and have many Americans scared of their own shadow. Traveling overseas is something to be feared, not embraced. This leads to the hand holding done by some companies.

The specter of the Professional Dater and Scam Artist rears its head here as well. Men get cheated all sorts of ways and don't noticed but are concerned about some woman overseas is going to take them to the cleaners? The women only ask for what they believe they can get. The problem is Men are looking to curry favor pay whatever the price is. Women talk or do men forget this? If one woman brags that an American took her on a expensive shopping trip to some of the best shops in Kiev or Moscow, don't you think other unscrupulous women will think, Hmmm?

3) Back to savings for a second. Okay so you move out of Mom and Pops around 25. You make a little more money, but in the meantime, your auto insurance has gone up, your rent as increased (you don't live in Santa Monica or Hollywood, rent control), food has gone up, fuel has increased. So basically what little wage increase you got is swallowed up by these increases in personal expenses.

But Western Women (American/Canadian) won't date you if you live at home. Having done this myself, I say is that REALLY a penalty? What are you missing. If you listen to the apologist of American Culture, they also seem to believe the problem is YOU. You for not making enough money, for not having a more expensive car, for not living in the right part of town.

Turning to prostitution isn't the answer either, but you shouldn't have to go sexless which I believe some people expect out of you in America if your single. Muthafuckers are surprised the increase in how many men are turning to internet porn and not even willing to screw the girlfriends they already have.

$2497 and this is to help those men that need help landing women in so-called vulnerable places like the supermarket, book store or just out and about.

If all you want is to date random woman and have sex every so often, I say why even spend that? Book regular trips to South America, Asia or Western Europe.

When I went to Europe and landed in Germany, the first thing I did was hit an P4P. I hadn't had sex in over a year. That was after I met the Norwegian woman and got rejected (by SMS). I was sure I was going to tag that, I had built up the desire to have sex. When that didn't happen and after a trip to Sweden to meet another woman that turned out was even worst, I had to get some trim.

But by the time I left Europe, I was good on the sex front. I had banged so much; I went to P4P's or RLD almost every other day for the final 10-15 days not including going to Ukraine where I took care of business too.

Don't judge until you've done it. Its all likelihood you're never have sex with women that look this good....

Mark is asked for $4,000 or just under that. I assume this covers you're entire trip, unlike AFA where I have to find a way to JFK to even take the trip, its not included in the cost, so going with AFA might as well cost $4,000 unless you live in the NYC, Philly or Boston, all within driving distance of New York.

Mark you might want to consider a payment plan to help younger men and those without the means to plunk down $4,000 to be able to go. Especially if they avoid dating in America for a year, they should have plenty of money. I would also encourage some men to break habits such as heavy smoking and heavy drinking, these are unseen cost of living expenses that many people don't take into account.

I think we can count on some minimums such as $1,200 for K-1. When people tell you its "Priceless" it cost them alot of money they are ashamed to admit they spent. I would always say if that question came up, it cost X amount and it was the best X amount I ever SPENT! Trust me, the typical person spent two or three times as much to get nothing at all or worst an unhappy marriage.

So if the back end cost are basically fixed, the only thing you can do it is control the front end.

Human Nature always enters in this as well, I think I've learned my lesson but many men haven't. Its okay to compromise, but only up to a point. For example I could accept that Tanja was 32 at the time, but I couldn't quite accept being a instant father. Sometimes I think I should have accepted that, but other times I think I only say that because I haven't had sex since I left Germany (not including trips to Mexico) and haven't had a long term relationship in eleven years.

Mark I am not harping on the cost thing as much as you think. I'm looking at this from a position of an unemployed student in his 4 week of A+/Network + classes.

I have said many times that the final cost will be $7k to $10k at a minimum - but it will be the best money you ever spent! That includes first trips, visa work, misc. expenses, and bringing her home. However, I'd never recommend this to someone who didn't have that kind of money to spend. This is not meant to be mean, but no one expects that Ferrari's are going to get cheaper so anyone can afford them.

You will have a time in your life when this is an appropriate expenditure - and it's within your budget.

Obviously Mark's service is aimed at guys with money. I think Mark is offering good value for the money. Guys who don't have money shouldn't use a service like Mark's. The problem with suggesting that a poor student save up for this is that if it doesn't work out (which is always possible), he will be crushed. Mark's service makes sense for successful guys, not poor students.

Poor guys have other options. One can find good women in any non-feminist country. 22 years ago, I was broke and disgusted with American women, so I got in my car and I drove to Mexico. I had no idea what I would find there except that I knew that it is impossible for anyone to be worse than American women are. This is how I found my wife. Poor American guys still have this option today, and this is what I recommend for them.

Mark Edward Davis wrote:I have said many times that the final cost will be $7k to $10k at a minimum - but it will be the best money you ever spent! That includes first trips, visa work, misc. expenses, and bringing her home. However, I'd never recommend this to someone who didn't have that kind of money to spend. This is not meant to be mean, but no one expects that Ferrari's are going to get cheaper so anyone can afford them.

You will have a time in your life when this is an appropriate expenditure - and it's within your budget.

Until that time - everything WILL look expensive.

mark

Agreed, this is a tough economy. Look at it this way, when things finally turn the corner (whenever that is) you should see a huge increase in customers. I burned up about 9K on the car and 5K on the trip(s), so you guys just caught me at the wrong time. Or maybe I was looking for some sort of guarantee that I would end up on the path to a long term relationship and marriage. Some of that was me foolishly thinking Slavic women wouldn't have any interest in me. I found out too late that's not a problem I should be concerned with.

I got 5 weeks of A+/Network + left after this week and I will be taking the test as the information will be fresh in my mind. But there's a chance I could get on with a company that will wait for me to take my certification test. I've reduced my expenses to near zero already, so my savings rate will be very high. I figure I'll slum it for awhile instead of giving into that Car Guy impulse which I have spent untold thousands on over the years.

So I hope by the time you get ready to have your second trip I can afford to go if just to observe...

fschmidt wrote:Obviously Mark's service is aimed at guys with money. I think Mark is offering good value for the money. Guys who don't have money shouldn't use a service like Mark's. The problem with suggesting that a poor student save up for this is that if it doesn't work out (which is always possible), he will be crushed. Mark's service makes sense for successful guys, not poor students.

Poor guys have other options. One can find good women in any non-feminist country. 22 years ago, I was broke and disgusted with American women, so I got in my car and I drove to Mexico. I had no idea what I would find there except that I knew that it is impossible for anyone to be worse than American women are. This is how I found my wife. Poor American guys still have this option today, and this is what I recommend for them.

I wasted a lot of money on agencies and tours when I first began my search. You really don't know what you are getting until it is too late. If you are a younger man without much assets, you can spend $1500 (and a month of time) to get a CELTA English teaching degree which is recognized all over the world, and with that up front investment you can immediately start generating income while living in a third world country. The women will be the least of your problems as you will be seen as desirable by the local women, and you will wonder why you ever thought of going to an agency.

fschmidt wrote:Obviously Mark's service is aimed at guys with money. I think Mark is offering good value for the money. Guys who don't have money shouldn't use a service like Mark's. The problem with suggesting that a poor student save up for this is that if it doesn't work out (which is always possible), he will be crushed. Mark's service makes sense for successful guys, not poor students.

Poor guys have other options. One can find good women in any non-feminist country. 22 years ago, I was broke and disgusted with American women, so I got in my car and I drove to Mexico. I had no idea what I would find there except that I knew that it is impossible for anyone to be worse than American women are. This is how I found my wife. Poor American guys still have this option today, and this is what I recommend for them.

There are options for poorer or should we call them less advantaged men.

Average South American Tour is under $1,000.

Caribbean Tours are less than $1,000

Eastern Europe DIY can be done on less than $2,000 (Write Many, Visit Many), I can get a flight to Kyiv via Moscow for $880 taxes and fees included right now.

Also define "Successful"? You mean material success? How about dude has a better job than do you but isn't necessarily a better person than you.

Mark's Service is aimed towards the man that wants an all inclusive tour. Fantastic and I would like to go just to see myself, we'll see if I can do that.

Those with lesser means will have to go to Asia, South America or the DIY route in Europe. Either way can be successful, depends on who you are.

fschmidt wrote:Obviously Mark's service is aimed at guys with money. I think Mark is offering good value for the money. Guys who don't have money shouldn't use a service like Mark's. The problem with suggesting that a poor student save up for this is that if it doesn't work out (which is always possible), he will be crushed. Mark's service makes sense for successful guys, not poor students.

Poor guys have other options. One can find good women in any non-feminist country. 22 years ago, I was broke and disgusted with American women, so I got in my car and I drove to Mexico. I had no idea what I would find there except that I knew that it is impossible for anyone to be worse than American women are. This is how I found my wife. Poor American guys still have this option today, and this is what I recommend for them.

I wasted a lot of money on agencies and tours when I first began my search. You really don't know what you are getting until it is too late. If you are a younger man without much assets, you can spend $1500 (and a month of time) to get a CELTA English teaching degree which is recognized all over the world, and with that up front investment you can immediately start generating income while living in a third world country. The women will be the least of your problems as you will be seen as desirable by the local women, and you will wonder why you ever thought of going to an agency.

I agree, you would need to be fed up with AW by the time your entering college. For socially awkward guys I guess this would be for them. Spend a summer in another country. Keep your debt level low by gaining a skill that might pay decently instead of racking up thousands of dollars in debt by 25.

Agencies have to conform to IMBRA and by not having contact information anywhere on Mark's web site he's avoiding that I believe. I guess he'll be billing himself as a vacation company like Pleasant Hawaiian Holidays (yes there still in business), only once you get there, it will be a series of socials that they hope are less pretentious than those held by AFA. I will say this about AFA, whatever they are doing they still have the stunnas going to their Ukrainian events.

Then again they are far outside the normal tour loop too.

FYI according to the CIA fact book much of FSU is a "Developing Nation" so its all basically the same, its just FSU has an marriage agency infrastructure that doesn't exist in other countries since this is mainly for locals, they just dabble in Western Men's whims because its extra money.

Mark Edward Davis wrote:momopi - You make a HUGE point when you said that TIMES ARE CHANGING. The way we communicate has gone from paper letters to live Skype. I personally believe the current system of letter-writing through agencies as 'gate-keepers' will die a slow death. If people can connect in real time with video for free, why would they pay $20 for a round-trip letter? The current answer for that is language barrier and common platform. That will be solved shortly. I appreciate having you as a fellow adviser here.

Mark Edward Davis wrote:I have said many times that the final cost will be $7k to $10k at a minimum - but it will be the best money you ever spent! That includes first trips, visa work, misc. expenses, and bringing her home. However, I'd never recommend this to someone who didn't have that kind of money to spend. This is not meant to be mean, but no one expects that Ferrari's are going to get cheaper so anyone can afford them.

You will have a time in your life when this is an appropriate expenditure - and it's within your budget.

Until that time - everything WILL look expensive.

mark

Hi Mark

When you talk about final cost, does that mean to make one trip to FSU, meet the girl of your dreams, marry her, and bring her back to States?

The thing is, there's no guarantee a guy will succeed on the first or even fifth trip. So if it requires multiple trips, the expenses compound.

I think tours have their place. They are great for very busy men who make a stable income of at least US$8-10K per month. Those guys have plenty of cash but very limited time.

But for guys with more modest incomes, that money is precious. It makes more sense for them to focus on value for money and put in the online homework to make the most of trips as much as possible. And LatAm destinations such as Cartagena (which has an AFA office) or even Rio are much more accessible time and money wise - very cheap flights available from Miama, NYC, Houston, and Dallas and flight time is much shorter.

How would you feel if a guy had a life savings of just US$10K, spent half on just one deluxe trip to FSU including several socials, and came back empty handed? With that same money, he could have gone down to Colombia several times, had many great times, and perhaps even found a wife.

A lot of the guys on this forum are on a very tight budget and many are still in their 20s or 30s. They would be very desirable catches to many foreign girls. They have time to develop things online but not a lot of excess money to blow.

The thing I really like about AFA is that it's a full service provider offering a smorgasbord of options. Their search engines and photo galleries are top of the line. They have superior depth in many of the world's best countries for finding women. And they seem completely honest and above board. Richer guys with limited time can go on their very expensive tours with socials. Guys of more average means can develop online relationships using their tools and eventually travel over to meet their favorite girls. They can also jump on a plane, visit a city with an AFA office, go through the picture books, and have dates arranged on a pay-per-meeting basis which works out to be very cheap.

If you decide to be a niche player focused on Ukraine, I think your best bet is to become the premier expert on that country and offer more depth than anyone else including AFA. I've seen local guys try to pull this off but their problem is they lack credibility with westerners. Its hard to trust your money to on-the-ground locals when no trustworthy type westerner involved. Many scam stories about such agencies and services abound online. On the other hand, you personally can project a clean image to western customers which is a big plus. And your wife can act as the expert. Ideally, you should also become much more of an expert, learn the local language, live in-country for a few years, etc. Don't know if this is practical for you though.