i might be way off base here ... but could the AKA not become involved in somewayeducation in their printed material ... at events etc ... or would this be to much of a political hot potato for themperhaps moblizing all the different kite flying associations and clubs as one unit to battle the knockoff might be effective as well as a team we will do our best to educate anywhere we go .... a banner etc ... verbalage to make the spectators aware of the situation ???it is bad enough the north american corporations manufacture offshore ... cheap wages equals cheap s@#t as far as i am concerned ... plus there are thousand s of canadian and american workers who remain unemployed and underemployed terry wISLAND QUAD

I would debate against printed material, dedicated web sites, etc... Much like the AKA message right now ("need more members"), it sends a sentiment we simply don't need as a community... Pure education, observation, nurturing and honest corrective action is the best policy.

Applying a little simplicity to some of this debate, as a reference point for the future...

If a flier (person) or business is shading their activities in any way, it's a sure sign they need to consider their applied ethics, or lack there of... This does not refer to any "hush" period during ethical prototyping, "whisper compaigns" promoting a new product or a team's "secret routine" that they don't want to unveil before a championship... We all know the difference in those kinds of instances, but it's easy to forget amidst some sense of power, success or false self-righteousness, I fall pray myself at times but always work hard to keep a flashlight handy for self-examination and reflection.

I'm all for shining the light around, yes it hurts, but it's naturally painful to excise poison...

This is all part of the curve, repeating itself in many industries, it's also our job to heal and correct this community after each instance.

On the other hand, we're also responsible as a society... It's easy to give daily commentary not do actually anything constructive.

On the other hand, we're also responsible as a society... It's easy to give daily commentary not do actually anything constructive.

John,

I have proposed that the ex iQuad kites be used by a raffle selected 'team' at the Ainsdale event. This could be a fun way of getting the 'team' process rolling as well as getting the kites into many hands.

I do think that a 'structure' is necessary as previously (some years ago) the hardware walked.

However, I do worry a little about the way that some kite manufacturers outsource production of their kites overseas. I know Rev don't do it, but others do and I can't help but feel that this is bound to confuse newcomers to the sport and increase the potential for copycat products to thrive. The Gomberg story reported via this thread is interesting. I'm now really confused about which Peter Lynn Octopus kites are legitimate and which are not. I wonder how many other kite purchasers are as well?

To illustrate.....

You can buy an original Peter Lynn Mid Size Octopus from David Gomberg for $1800Alternatively, you can buy the same kite 'made under license' by the Gombergs for $1400.Alternatively, you can buy a smaller version made by Premier kites

So, consumers can buy the same kite from three separate factories at different prices ?????? I'm guessing that at least one of these is made in China.

If the same prospective purchaser sees another Octopus kite on Ebay cheap I can understand why they may be confused about which versions are legitimate licensed goods and which ones are not.

As I say, I agree that it is wrong to deliberately set out to copy someone else's work. However, I'm not sure that some designers help their cause when they outsource multiple versions of the same product to different factories.

It might be useful to us who want to stay legal what the "legal" price range for a B-Series could be. Obviously, if I can get a new set for $100 it is probably a knock-off. But I have seen them anywhere between $280 and $380 in featured stores. So where is the bottom line for a genuine kite?
Also is there a visible difference between the real thing and the knock-off? (Other than than Revolution is spelled R世河拿下目的态病仠)

Don't know about others, but I'm on the lower end of your range. Right now I don't have prices listed on line, because the website is still a work in progress. However, call or email and I'll be happy to quote any Revs, including parts and accessories. This goes for any other kite I sell.

As for as telling the difference, I can only recommend that you buy from merchants that are listed both as AKA and KTAI member. You can also visit the Rev site (and probably other Kite Manufacturers) to see who they list as there dealers/retailers. These are also the merchants who are most likely to back the products they sell, not to mention know their products!!

(In my case, this is only the 2nd year for Flying Smiles Kites, and some of the manufacturers websites are as lacking as my own - So if you aren't sure about a kite store, call the manufacturer you're interested and ask!)

It might be useful to us who want to stay legal what the "legal" price range for a B-Series could be. Obviously, if I can get a new set for $100 it is probably a knock-off. But I have seen them anywhere between $280 and $380 in featured stores. So where is the bottom line for a genuine kite?Also is there a visible difference between the real thing and the knock-off? (Other than than Revolution is spelled R世河拿下目的态病仠)

There's an Ebay store selling look alikes. Type in 2009 New quad 4 lines stunt kite +handle+lines and you'll see what I mean Ebay claims to not allow counterfeit or trademarked items. Do the kites on this site fall into that category? If so, I'm more than happy to report them to Ebay, and any others that crop up from time to time

Edited by Kitelife, 17 November 2009 - 02:24 PM.Link removed, no sense in feeding them to search engines. ;)

There's an Ebay store selling look alikes. Type in 2009 New quad 4 lines stunt kite +handle+lines and you'll see what I mean Ebay claims to not allow counterfeit or trademarked items. Do the kites on this site fall into that category? If so, I'm more than happy to report them to Ebay, and any others that crop up from time to time

Suing the buyer is terrible. Even if the buyer knew the product was a knockoff, it is up to "the authorities" to remove the knockoff from the distribution stream.

Suing everyone in the selling chain is proper. The wholesalers and retailers are assumed to know where the product comes from. If the sellers are offshore and cannot be sued, well there is a problem in our rush to globalization.

The fact that manufacturing has largely moved to China, and that provides knockoff manufacturers better access to original specs, is unfortunate, but not an issue that will produce desirable results if pursued. Heck, every time the manufacturer provides a catalog image, or sells a kite, there is the opportunity for the knockoff artist to get some specs.

The fact that China does not always honor intellectual property rights is an issue separate from manufacturing outsourcing (although there is an obvious matter of convenience for would be Chinese pirates.) But most Chinese produced products are marketed by companies in the U.S. or other buyer's countries. That is why aggressive pressure on the wholesalers/retailers is necessary - and should minimize the effect of the pirates on the legal owners of the designs. In addition, all countries must continue to pressure China to enforce reasonable intellectual property rights. Remember, the concept of copyrights and patents are somewhat foreign to the communist mindset - "what is produced by the individual is for the good of all."

If the sentiment "what is produced by the individual is for the good of all" sounds quite nice - it is except in the context of capitalism. And, capitalism is, so far, the best economic system devised.

I have seen eBay auctions, active NOW, that use "Rev" as a generic term like "frigidaire" and "coke". The logo on the kite is obviously not "Revolution", but the panel layouts etc. look the same. EBay should be prompted to check this use of "Rev" as a generic term before it loses its trademark status. (It is trademarked, right?) Order a "coke" in a restaurant that has a Pepsi francaise, and you will be quickly advised they have no "Coke", would a "Pepsi" be okay?

Finally, what aspects of a Revolution kite are trademarked, patented, and copyrighted? Copyright on designs is pretty much automatic. But I don't know if panel layouts would fall under copyright or patent.

Well, no complete or simple solutions here. But I am disappointed that the Gombergs saw fit to sue the buyer rather than the seller. The reference to buyers of drugs and prostitution is a false analogy - so far it is not illegal to own a kite!

There's an Ebay store selling look alikes. Type in 2009 New quad 4 lines stunt kite +handle+lines and you'll see what I mean Ebay claims to not allow counterfeit or trademarked items. Do the kites on this site fall into that category? If so, I'm more than happy to report them to Ebay, and any others that crop up from time to time

That makes me so damn angry...

And That has to be in violation of some WTO regulation...So pathetic man... I could only stomach a few posts before I lost my appetite....<walks away grunting obscenities...>

Well, no complete or simple solutions here. But I am disappointed that the Gombergs saw fit to sue the buyer rather than the seller. The reference to buyers of drugs and prostitution is a false analogy - so far it is not illegal to own a kite!

To the Gombergs' benefit, as I've heard it from several sources, the buyer in question was FULLY AWARE of what they were doing, were in communication with the Gombergs at at least one point, and made a conscious decision to buy and to some extent promote (as a broker for a group purchase) the copies... They knew what could come of it, and US law was applied, quite leniently, I might add... The Gombergs didn't pursue their legal ability to its full extent, they made a stand to protect the businesses of both GKPI and Peter Lynn, and a justified one in my opinion.

In such a case, you're talking about $4,000-$6,000 retail per item, a WAY different situation and market than a mere $300 kite.

In the context of someone who bought a Rev knock off from eBay or wherever without any reasonable degree of knowledge, my own sentiments say yes, no suit is appropriate.

To the Gombergs' benefit, as I've heard it from several sources, the buyer in question was FULLY AWARE of what they were doing, were in communication with the Gombergs at at least one point, and made a conscious decision to buy and to some extent promote (as a broker for a group purchase) the copies... They knew what could come of it, and US law was applied, quite leniently, I might add... The Gombergs didn't pursue their legal ability to its full extent, they made a stand to protect the businesses of both GKPI and Peter Lynn, and a justified one in my opinion.

In such a case, you're talking about $4,000-$6,000 retail per item, a WAY different situation and market than a mere $300 kite.

In the context of someone who bought a Rev knock off from eBay or wherever without any reasonable degree of knowledge, my own sentiments say yes, no suit is appropriate.

Okay John,

That tips over to my point. Prosecute the retailers, wholesalers, and people who "broker" such deals. If the people were involved in brokering the knockoffs, then I would support the Gomberg decision to prosecute. Definitely!. But that point was not brought out in the previous discussions, that I noticed. They were described only as buyers who knew the kites were pirated copies. Knowing they were pirated may be a knock against their morals, but making it a legal matter is a very dangerous precedent. Most the patrons of "Dollar plus/minus stores" would be open to prosecution. Of course, those patrons are also risking their health with some nasty pseudo-products.

As to the $ value - that is not the factor *I* would use to decide a matter of "principle". Yes, I understand the emotional factor when some very upright friends suffer losses due to piracy. I am mainly concerned that the legal and international treaty remedies prosecute the main culprits - the perps. And I hope they will be successful in shutting down piracy. But, it's not simple.

(I do appreciate the contributions to kiting made by the Gomberg family, and wish them only the BEST success.)

I do not like prosecuting buyers, knowledgeable or not, who are buying only for their own benefit. It comes too close to "guilty until proven innocent". Do you REALLY know that shampoo you bought at the Super-Duper-Discount-Mart was what it purported to be? Must we research the on-line retailer to be sure the "John Dear" tractor they sell is really built in Moline, IL.

BTW, there are a number of Chinese quad kites with some nice sail patterns on eBay. I have no idea what their quality is, but they obviously are using the sail and spar structures developed by Revolution. However, their sail patterns are unique and attractive. How do these relate to Revolution patents and copyrights? (Actually, I pose this as a serious question!)

Do you REALLY know that shampoo you bought at the Super-Duper-Discount-Mart was what it purported to be? Must we research the on-line retailer to be sure the "John Dear" tractor they sell is really built in Moline, IL.

BTW, there are a number of Chinese quad kites with some nice sail patterns on eBay. I have no idea what their quality is, but they obviously are using the sail and spar structures developed by Revolution. However, their sail patterns are unique and attractive. How do these relate to Revolution patents and copyrights? (Actually, I pose this as a serious question!)

Shaking, shaking, shaking it up.

If your shiny new tractor has "John Dear" written on it and purports to be outta Moline then its probably one of them American knock-offs.

Hedge Warden
The question on Copys,sail patern,and how it affects Revolution Copy rights.I dont think an answer on an Open Forum is realy of any use.Only to those that may want to exploit it for ther own ends.Let them do the leg work and find the answer themselves.No need to help um on ther way.

MERRY CHRISTMAS? Strewth you northern folk dont half get on things right early....must be the time zone difference or something.All the best to ya Bri for the New Year (which ever one it is up there)

Hedgewarden Bri is right, you won't get much sensible debate here on the merits of the modern western capitilist manufacturing system which is based heavily on what some see as knock off's, ....who actually built that first tractor? aint all the others just knock off's?

Pat. numerous (Hadzicki et al) describe the manufacturing machines for the spars etc.Pat. 4,286,762 (Prouty) describes a dual line kite design. I got too tired to read it, but it probably is the Rogallo type everyone makes.Pat. 5,213,289 (Barresi) - Hmm, David B., not John B.[Just for grins and chuckles]

Unfortunately, I cannot remember how to get the illustrations. Reading the verbal descriptions is time consuming and ambiguous. [You have to download one of two programs the Patent office recommends to decode the special TIFF format.]

Well, it should be clear there is a patent covering the basic design. [Sorry, my mistake - probably no patent anymore.]

"Revolution" is a registered trademark, and graphic designs almost certainly are covered by copyright. The panel layouts are probably also covered by copyright - that is not clear to me."Rev" is apparently not trademarked. One could argue that it infringes on "Revolution" by similarity, since the intent is obvious.

How that information will help the pirates is beyond me. I never much liked the notion of security through ignorance. [The information is publicly available to them, only us be ignorant.][Actually, patent expiration is intentional, to encourage commerce through competition.]

It seems to me that all the eBay auctions with Revolution-like kites, with panel layouts obviously copied or with unique sail graphics, are all questionable.

Obviously, I am no lawyer, so the legal questions are beyond me. That should be the job of Revolution to pursue. Often legal remedies are too expensive to pursue, though.

Is anyone questioning eBay? [Assuming no patent protection, there appears to be only one seller offering questionable auctions today - including non-Revolution "Rev 1.5 SLE" and "Rev Blast" kites. Not a direct trademark infringement (?), but intent to deceive is obvious.]