OK, this is my first post but this is so interesting I had to add my two cents. Darth_PinkDotGuy, I like this idea: "Qui Gon did something, as we are told by Obi-One in TPM, to upset the council. Did he order the Clones, thus resulting in the council being upset??" Maybe the JC found out QGJ had contact with the Kaminoans re: clones (but they didn't know he went farther than that and actually followed through, possibly with Dooku's prodding and $$$). But I also like Obi-Will_Kenobi's post about Mace being behind all this.

I wonder though: did Yoda hear QGJ cry out as Ani was mowing down Sand People because QGJ, now dead of course, saw the error of his ways and was pleading with Ani not to "start down the dark path" as Yoda tells Luke in ESB?

ok listen senitor palpitine is the mein dude here he planned all of this so that the force would loose balence and the jedi would be no more so here is the deal on his identys loard sidious is ruler or the sith which is the same as the dark side he changed to syfo cause he was a jedi to learn how to destroy the jedi and he asked for the clone army.....next he is senitor palpitine to ensure the jedi is allowed the army to destroy the evil droids to creat more good than evil which creats an unblaence in the force which is more bad than good........and last you see him as palpitine (vaders master in episode 6) and he became palpitine so he could destroy the only one who would save the jedi (luke) and he failed

It simply means that Mace is a leader of the Jedi council, and the Jedi are responsible for bringing in the clones and starting the war... indirectly responsible for giving Palpatine his Imperial power.

Basically, they tried to prevent a war, but they went to far by putting this huge army under the control of one man.

This is a reach, but how about yoda? He was quick to go get the army and never really questioned anything about it. Along the lines of dual identity, yoda has never been anyone but yoda. Just because we didn't know him as yoda when he was introduced in ESB doesn't give him a second identity. Maybe he ordered them with an alias, knowing that the dark side was rising. He did act as their general. Not saying yoda is bad, just that he did something that backfired later. Probably not the case but just another idea.

You have an excellent point. I am just trying to see if there is some deeper meaning. Personally, my gut tells me it is Qui-Gon but I am trying to see if it could possibly be Mace. The choices trailer could be used to accuse Mace, but you could be right also. It could just mean that he is upset in General about giving Palpy so much power. Thanks for the response.

Most people have dismissed the idea that Syfo-Dyas can be Maul, but here is why I think he might be.

First, Maul was a skilled fighter who obviously had a good grasp of the force. He did whip Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time after all. He was also an apprentice to Sidious, who has a history of turning good jedi to the Dark side. Also, according to tradition, every Dark Jedi I know of started off good and then "fell".

The problem with my theory so far is that if Maul is Syfo-Dyas, Qui-Gon would have regonized him. But, we know his face was covered in tatoos, which could have been to conceal his identity. Think about this also..In every lightsaber battle, with the exception of TPM, a great deal of IMPORTANT dialogue takes place. Think Obi-Wan V. Vader, Luke V. Vader, Yoda V. Dooku, etc. So, the sequence in TPM is obviously the lone dissenter. Why then is there no dialogue between Darth Maul and anyone else?

The answer, I say, is because even though he changed his physical appearence, Qui-Gonn would have recognized Maul as Syfo-Dyas if he had spoken. So, there could not be any dialogue. Also, Maul was killed roughly 10 years ago, as was Qui-Gonn.

Now, what about when Maul did speak. He told Sidious it was time they revealed themselves to the Jedi. Well, if the Jedi don't know them already, what is there to reveal? Will they say "Suprise! We are people you don't know!!!" I don't think so.

All of this also has to do with the fact that if Maul does not have another identity, why even have Maul as a character? He does not really serve as much more than an assasin, so if there is no importance associated with Maul, his character might as well have been a bounty hunter.

Finally, I agree with the rules we are using as a premise for discussion, but I would like to offer another that makes my argument. In Star Wars, the idea of good vs. evil is very clear cut. Good is good, and evil is evil. It is a very black and white issue, with the exception of Palpatine. I can't see Lucas changing his ways at this point, with people posing as good while actually being evil. It doesn't fit the mold. It is for this reason that I also believe Palpatine and Sidious are two seperate people. Anyway, this post is getting long, and as it is my first post ever, I will end it now. Good day.

I really wish they would have said "Surprise!! We are the people you don't know" That would have been classic.

I like your idea of Good is Good, Evil is Evil. Altough that's a good point, I don't think Senator Palpatine is EVER portrayed as good. The fact the obi-wan talks him down in episode II lets the audience know he may not be so good, and he is obiviously trying to undermine Anakin's teachings. That's not good.

Lastly, I like your ideas about Maul. I am really confused right now. I have successfully convinced myself that Syfo-Dias is Qui-Gon then Mace and now I like this idea of Maul. I am still pretty set on Qui-Gon with an inkling towards Mace

Here is the surprise that awaits in Episode III: Qui-Gon is Darth Sidious. Think about this:

* Qui-Gon was insistent that Anakin was the "chosen one" and was adamant about taking him off Tatooine and toward Jedi training. Qui-Gon knew exactly where to find Anakin, since he impregnanted Shmi in the form of Darth Sidious, with or without her knowledge.

* Qui-Gon asked Shmi who Anakin's father was just to see what she could remember, or perhaps, what she would reveal.

* Qui-Gon knew of Sifo-Dyas' death, which occured shortly before Episode I. Thus, he knew that he could use that name on Kamino, especially after he removed the planet from the archive map.

* In Epsiode I Darth Maul puts up a strangely modest fight with Qui-Gon when he tries to "stop" Qui-Gon, Obi-wan and Anakin from leaving Tatooine.

* Dooku was Qui-Gon's master, but in Episode II their roles are reversed, just as Vader says to Obi-wan in Episode IV: "Now I am the master"

* Qui-Gon had Darth Maul "kill him" because he no longer needed to use the Qui-Gon persona and wanted to cover up his true identity. His plan was already in motion by that time.

* Qui-Gon's human form is a "phantom" which is defined in Webster's Dictionary as "Something apparently seen, heard, or sensed, but having no physical reality; a ghost or an apparition." The dark side made others sense and see Qui-Gon, but it was Sidious at work.

Stop the insanity, people for god sakes learn how to make arguments that can be followed with points from the movies, not just your imagination. Try and prove your conclusions, most of them dont seem logical to me.

Now ill bring my own speculation as to the nature of Sifo Dyas. I think Syfo Dyas is none other than Darth Sidious. If we accept Sidious is Palpatine, then no one will be able to convince me otherwise. He, being as bad as he is could have disguised himself as a Jedi Master ( even thought he is Sith he can dress up like a Jedi ... ) went to Kamino and ordered the Clones as part of his plan to take control of the republic and bring the dark side into power.

It was ten years ago that this happened. Ten years ago Palpatine wasnt even the Supreme Chancellor, he was just a Senator. He was Senator of Naboo, and maybe other planets in the area. Just like Queen Amidala had to travel from Coruscant to Naboo, Palpatine who was JUST a senator at some point must have had to travel from Coruscant to Naboo. Wait a minute, Kamino is closer to Naboo than to Coruscant, thats why Obi Wan was able to find Anakin's signal from there so he could forward the message.
So maybe Palpatine just ordered the clones on one of his trips. Even the laziest basterd will pick up milk on the way home if he needs it so much right?? Only if there is a place to buy it on the way, and in this case there is one.

What about Qui Gone... Well he is gone, but he is still on the light side of the force, he is not a bad guy. Whoever says he has seen the slightest sign of darkness in Qui Gon is just letting his/her imagination take over reality. Qui Gon is a good guy, he just doesnt follow the council rules sometimes, but we know the council is not the best right now. We heard him when Anakin wask killing those Tusken Raiders he said "Noooooo" why would a dark side figure ever say no to giving to anger and agression??? That wouldnt make sense.

Mace Windu... his name to me sounds like a Operative System that crashes all the time. He is the best fighter or light-saber warrior among the jedi. He is not as strong in the force as Yoda, but he is good too. Well, there could be a plot twist with his character, but i doubt it. I think he is there for the race thing, dont get me wrongo, Jackson is a great actor but the fact that he is black adds a lot to his character particularly in our time...

Maul, is an unknown character who doesnt count much in this movie. He was just a disposable man to Sidious. I even bet Sidious always has more than one "aprentice", eg Anakin while Tyranus; Luke while Vader... He just has him there under his wing waiting for the right time, and if he is lucky one of them dies in the hands of the next. He could be Syfo Dyas too...
And finally dont eliminate people on the basis on what you know about Sifo Dyas... whoever he was he was lying, there was no Syfo Dyas on the council 10years ago remember? So do your thinking the right way...

It can't be Palpatine becuase he is a known public figure. If he was on the jedi council, had his death faked, then reappeared as the senator and later chancelor, I would think the jedi would recognize him and raze their eyebrows. Palaptine is Sideous (sp?) becuase we know Palpatine is the Sith Master and when Maul (his apprentice) died, that left only the Master to remain (there are only 2 to the Sith) so Sideous could only be one man - Palpetine.

It can't be Maul unless he had recostructive surgery.

It can't be Qui Gon becuase he was never on the council.

It can't be Mace becuase he is on the jedi council and would be recognized.

If Dyas is still alive in Ep II, he would be recognized by any jedi or anyone of high office becuase of Dyas' high position, and the only person who was recognized as a former jedi who knew about the clone army was Dooku. He was recognized by every jedi who saw him. This leads me to conclude that Dooku is indeed Dyas.

KillerNapalm, the whole point of this thread is that Syfo-Dias cannot be Dooku. We are trying to prove that it is either Mace, Qui-Gonn, Maul.

How do you know the Kaminos would recognize Mace? Kamino isn't even in the Republic. It is possible that they have seen very few Jedi. Secondly how in the hell would the Kaminos know if Qui-gon or Maul was on the council. If I went to Kamino with a butt load of money and told them I was on the Council I am positvely sure they would believe me.

Actually, the point of this thread was mostly to talk about the duality of identities, and yes, how it pertains to Sifo Dyas. However, it has been noted a few pages back that it is quite possible that Sifo Dyas is indeed Dooku or Sidious since the best explanation is that he was a real guy whose name was used for convinience sake and therefore it doesn't violate the dual identity "rule".

I agree I think it's Mace too. However I think Padme Amidala also has a duel identity. In every situation Palpitine/Sidious has manipulated she's been right there all along. Did Anakin fall in love...or was he seduced by the dark side of the force?

The "Syfo-Dyas" who appeared at Kamino and ordered the clones cannot be a member of the Jedi Council, even though the Llama-Lamas [old name for the Kaminoans), think he is. He may HAVE been a member of the council, but did he order them before he died? This is the real question. Reasoning:

1) Neither Mace, Obi-Wan or Yoda were aware of any member of the council ordering a clone army, this includes the jedi originally known as Syfo-Dyas.

2) An order of that magnitude would cost a great deal and the financial drain on the jedi council's coffers would be noticed, unless the financial records were tampered with as well. This would suggest an inside job by a jedi aligned with Palpatine and Sidious, perhaps the same one who removed Kamino from the Jedi Library records.

3) If it was not stolen from the jedi council's coffers then the individual who DID order it would have to be financially capable of paying for the clone army. This leaves out the jedi council, most of which are not rich in their own right. The council is rich, but the individual members of the council are not.

Closing thoughts:

This means whoever DID order the clone army, either was independently wealthy or stole the money from the jedi coffers. In order to steal it, he would have to erase the evidence from the records. If the real Syfo-Dyas ordered them, this would indicate he was a fallen jedi, because he would not only have to steal the money and change the records, but he would also require assistance from Sidious in masking his trail so none of the other jedi would notice anything had changed.

From our current data, this means Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin [he was too young at the time], and Mace [?] would be eliminated from the list. This leaves Qui-Gonn as the only possible jedi suspect and since he has been dead for awhile now, it doesn't serve the story much for him to be the Syfo-Dyas who ordered the clone army. Unless someone has some idea as to how this revelation would advance the story line?

-Undomiel
"Mawwage. That bwessed awangement. That dweam within a dweam." - The Princess Bride

To address the Syfo-Dyas, I am still under the assumption that I know nothing about him.
We also know that the clones are at least ten years old. Obi-Won also tells the Kamino, that Syfo-Dyas was killed ten years ago, he tells the Kamino this before the Kamino tells him about the Growth altering that had been done. This timeline fits just to nicely. By the same token how was Syfo-Dyas killed, that is something else that is clearly stated, he was "Killed" he didn't just die.

The Qui-Gon theory I don't believe holds either, for this reason. Qui-Gon would have had to have been working with Dooku, he would not have been working for Palpy. But to that being said, if he was why didn't Dooku tell Obi-Won when he told him everything else. Dooku told obi-Won that the sith controlled the Senate and basically letting the cat out of the bag.

It would stand that Dooku would have to be the one that talked with the Kaminos, because Tyranus recruited Jango Fett. This conclusion is based on the Chicken/Egg theory. The Kaminos had to have something to model the clones after, so the way that I see it is that Dooku/Tyranus posed as a rep for the council saying that he was sent by Syfo-Dyas and that they wanted Clones made and the clones told him that they need a specimen to model the clones after. or vica-versa. Now this theory works if you believe the Sith Master/Apprentice theory.
I don't believe Mace had anything to do with it.

I think that this discussion is great, I would love to read more of your ideas. This is something that I do know, we are dealing with Lucas and he has surprised me more than once.

"It would stand that Dooku would have to be the one that talked with the Kaminos, because Tyranus recruited Jango Fett. This conclusion is based on the Chicken/Egg theory. The Kaminos had to have something to model the clones after, so the way that I see it is that Dooku/Tyranus posed as a rep for the council saying that he was sent by Syfo-Dyas and that they wanted Clones made and the clones told him that they need a specimen to model the clones after. or vica-versa. Now this theory works if you believe the Sith Master/Apprentice theory.
I don't believe Mace had anything to do with it."

I agree, it doesn't sound like it is Qui-Gonn or any other active member of the jedi council. Dooku, Sidious and Palpatine are the only obvious suspects. Since Dooku has already been shown to have some involvement with the cloners, this makes the most sense of all the other possibilities.

I think you all are putting too much emphasis on the timeline. It is sketchy at best. Obi-Wan says "about 10 years ago" or "over 10 years ago" or he uses other time-specific phrases with intentional vagueness.

Also, Obi-Wan tells the Kaminos that Syfo-Dyas was killed at that time. However, he asks Yoda and Mace about it and they look at each other as if there is something else to that story. Obi-wan says something like "I was under the impression he was killed over 10 years ago." At that point, Yoda and Mace do the look and Obiwan asks if they ever authorized a clone army. They NEVER specifically confirm that Syfo-Dyas died, so I don't think that can be used as proof one way or the other.

I wasn't implying that the Kaminos would recognize him, but that is an interesting point.

Also I really do believe Sidious is Palpatine. I see not how it could be anyone else.

I find this dual identity thing interesting as well but I do not believe that G.L. really sticks to those rules in his movies. I've only caught two rules that he uses in most of his movies..... usually he has to but a big battle in at the end of the movie, and during moments of tention he seems to think that he needs to put childish comedy in to relieve the tention for some reason.

I think the dual identity thing is just coincidence.

BARRINGTON - that is indeed interesting about Padame but I don't think so.

I do not beleive that Mace has anything to do with it. Remember the rules of the Sith....there cannot be more than two of them. Sideous has had an apprentice for the entire time that Mace comes into the story. If Mace were in league with Palpatine, that means that there would be three to the Sith and that cannot happen. If Mace became Sith after Maul was killed, then for Dooku to become Sith, he would have to have killed Mace or Mace would have had to be killed some other way. It just can't work for Mace to be a bad guy.

I accept that it is a possibility for it to be Qui Gon, but this is a movie and Lucas's stories and directing never change. It is most probable and more like Lucas for Dooku to be Sifo.

I mean common this is a movie, it doesn't follow for what most likely will happen. Do you really think that C3PO would really have his head and body seperated and mixed up with a battle droid and him spurting those childish puns? Or even better, do you think it likely for a little kid boy to fly up in a naboo fighter craft, destroy a few fighters, somehow get into the central command ship, and destroy the ship from inside all by accident?

I don't wanna be uncouth but most of you are smoking some good stuff.....

Hmm... I can't read all 20 pages of this. Anyway, Sideous does not have to = Sypho Dyas or however you spell that. Simple. A dead Jedi, and all he would have to do is use his name. Why that name, and not one of someone who is alive, or has been dead longer? Because if he had died a few years ago, there's a chance they heard, and if he impersonated someone like Mace Windu, then there's a chance they may try to communicate with Windu. Any unwanted attempts to communicate with Dyas would fail.

"Qui Gon Jinn Notes: (7/12/00) Liam Neeson told the Italian newspaper La Repubblica (reprinted by JediNet) that he won't be returning for this film, though he probably will be for Star Wars Episode III. (7/18/00)" This article came from www.upcomingnews,right after its review of AOTC.Liam told us and I have never seen it posted that he "might be in EPIII.Is he a clone, or a clone was on the pyre,or the third ,which I think is more likely,he finally consoles Obi for the trouble he put him through.I think while Yoda heard him call to Anakin when Ani he was killing,he will come to Obi.I mean Obi might have to face QGJ's old master,plus the chosen one.I say QGJ is a blue ghost in EPII.It was sidious who went to purchase the clones.Just my take of things. Anakin.PEACE Ewen