On 9/02/2009 nmonteith wrote:>I'm just interested to know if you COULD make these bolts work ok in soft>rock. If you can make them grip with a bit more thought, then it makes>the Croatians even more negligent. I would think that after bolt 1 didn't>tighten up properly then you'd start thinking of plan B. It seems crazy>they they just continued placing more than 40 of these bodgy placements>and then committed their OWN lives to this mess.

Neil, i don't think you could make these bolts work well in soft rock. With a dyna style bolt it has to reach it's max expansion as the sleeve is held in place by the hanger or the head of the nut, but with these if the sleeve dosen't bite it just won't expand. After feeling how loose they were and how little torque it took to do them up anymore i have NO IDEA what was going through there heads....Bold climber, easy route, just like placing marginal pro????? It's just F&$king illogical how someone could place them then climb past them

On 9/02/2009 nmonteith wrote:> I would think that after bolt 1 didn't>tighten up properly then you'd start thinking of plan B. It seems crazy>they they just continued placing more than 40 of these bodgy placements>and then committed their OWN lives to this mess.

Indeed. But they had to complete their quest to complete a new route on every continent and they were out of time!

Maybe the fact they received a sponsorship of these bolts to equip some crags in Croatia just weeks before their trip out here, has something to do with why they used these bolts here?http://www.climbing-croatia.com/novosti/novosti.htm
Google translator should tell you enough and look at the first photo.

You can see the piddly little description he sent me which has little information about the route, no warning of the dangers they knew existed or the problems they knew that they'd had with the bolting.

On 9/02/2009 Onsight wrote:>Indeed. But they had to complete their quest to complete a new route on>every continent and they were out of time!>>Maybe the fact they received a sponsorship of these bolts to equip some>crags in Croatia just weeks before their trip out here, has something to>do with why they used these bolts here?

Another reason why mixing money with climbing is a recipe for disaster (as seen on Everest every year). It forces people to make stupid decisions as they feel the need to please their sponsors at any cost as their lively hood depends on it (another whole topic!)

I happened to browse a UK forum I was surprised to see the majority seemed to think that when sport climbing, it is up to the climber to make sure the bolts he/she uses are safe. Is there any practical way to do this, other than rapping down every route and checking bolts with a crow bar, or something to simulate the loading from a fall, prior to leading ?

Neil, why are you insistent on these bolts being okay for this particular application. The mechanical type bolt is so dependant on the compressive strength of the rock. With, in my opinion, the shallow depth that these bolts are placed, these are not adequate for the application. Even with the utmost care in placement these bolts the margin of failure is just not high enough and the bolting not 'best practice'. :-)

Although I am not disputing the lousy job of bolting the Croatians did, I would like to emphasise the fact that there are plenty of other dodgy bolts in existance around the country and often placed by some of the country's leading climbers.

I am guessing it would be a small percentage of climbers who haven't placed dodgy bolts at some stage in their careers. I know I have and I know the names Carrigan, Law, LeBreton, Lindorff, Matheson, Moorhead, Poultney, the Shepherds (to name but a few) are guilty of it too. I know of examples where all these people have had bolts either fail, or been extracted with the sort of ease that was shown in Simon's video.

The Croatians shouldn't be singled out for being the only climbers to have placed poor bolts in Australia.

I am also surprised that discussion of double ropes over singles ropes is not being discussed more in relation to this tragedy.

On 9/02/2009 devlin66 wrote:>Neil, why are you insistent on these bolts being okay for this particular>application.

I am merely interested in a technical and historical sense. If you read their engrish post on the UK forum they mention it was their intention to create a 'adventure' route rather than a sport climb. Adventure means things are usually less than ideal when it comes to protection and the protection is usually only just enough to get the first ascent team to the top. Historically it is rarely equipped for mass repeats. If their only application was to get the first ascent team to the top - then this style of bolt did the job. Harsh but true. The first ascent team were probably fairly unaware that the Pierces Pass area is considered by Bluies locals to be closer to a sport crag than an adventure mountain.

>With, in my opinion, the shallow depth that these>bolts are placed, these are not adequate for the application.

80mm is not shallow. It's actually as deep as many ring bolts in the Bluies. The problems lies in the diameter of the hole and the grip of the expansion cone on the hole sides.

>Even with>the utmost care in placement these bolts the margin of failure is just>not high enough and the bolting not 'best practice'. :-)

I reserve judgment until someone (me?) tries to test them from scratch. I'm not making a call either way at this moment. There is plenty of secondary evidence and theories that they won't work - but no one has actually tried it. I'll have a crack tonight on some Sydney choss if i can find an 8mm bit at home. I'm only discussing it because all things bolting interest me - and if I (and others) can learn more about how they work then we'll all be better educated when making bolting decisions in the future.

Simey if the single rope hadn't cut we may well be talking about 2 deaths. When removing the bolts Simon Carter attached a quickdraw to the only bolt the belayer was attached to. It came out with a couple of tugs.
The Croatians should be singled out. They knew the bolts were dangerous and simply hopped on a plane and farked off back home. It wasn't an isolated bolt here and there, the whole bloody route was a time bomb

eh. there's a lot of beating drums for a lynch mob going on and i think it can cloud judgement about whats going on.

yes they are the wrong bolts and not recommended but there are questionable bolts around in lots of places, i don't think any self respecting climber should expect every bolt they come across to be perfect. outward loading of a bolt is unconventional and these are not the only bolts in the country that would fail when being pulled out.

my interpretation of the accident is still that the bolt failing was a contributing factor, not the whole story. the bolt being rested on was a single point of failure for a big fall. the most significant factor was the rope running over an edge and being cut. sure there's people pointing fingers and saying if it wasn't cut then two people would have been killed, but thats still hypothetical, and its ignoring the fact they had a single point of failure for an anchor.

IMO its too simplistic to outsource all the responsibility and blame to Croatia.

On 9/02/2009 hipster wrote:>Simey if the single rope hadn't cut we may well be talking about 2 deaths.

I realise that the rope cutting may have saved the belayer's life, but that doesn't mean this aspect of the accident should be ignored.

This is not the first time that a rope has cut in a climbing fall. There was the incident at Arapiles a few years ago where a lead climber fell off Muldoon and their rope cut after wrapping behind a sharp bollard. (Amazingly the climber survived).

I understand there was an incident a few decades ago where a climber fell on the Three Sisters (seconding?) and their rope cut through and he fell to his death. I am assuming this was on an old style hemp rope though.

Single ropes have gained in popularity over the last few years, but two ropes do have certain advantages (eg. less chance of both ropes cutting). Worth considering.

On 9/02/2009 nmonteith wrote:>80mm is not shallow. It's actually as deep as many ring bolts in the Bluies.>The problems lies in the diameter of the hole and the grip of the expansion>cone on the hole sides.

My point being that I think 80mm is not deep enough for real long term durability (20+ years) for frequently loaded bolts. With the compressive strength being so variable in sandstone I think that 80mm is too shallow and 120-150mm would be a better depth. I know that means slightly more cost but a far better installtion in my opinion.

>>Even with>>the utmost care in placement these bolts the margin of failure is just>>not high enough and the bolting not 'best practice'. :-)>>I reserve judgment until someone (me?) tries to test them from scratch.>I'm not making a call either way at this moment. There is plenty of secondary>evidence and theories that they won't work - but no one has actually tried>it. I'll have a crack tonight on some Sydney choss if i can find an 8mm>bit at home. I'm only discussing it because all things bolting interest>me - and if I (and others) can learn more about how they work then we'll>all be better educated when making bolting decisions in the future.

Sometimes I think we are trying to reinvent the wheel. I know that climbing anchors are unique in their installation but industry have many years of application experience. You will find that in soft sandstone and of the forces we are talking they would specifiy much longer anchors and advise against using mechanical where possible. I would still be interested to see what your testing comes up with though.

As much as I believe we should be responsible for our own action and descisions, if you are going to bolt with the intent that other people can use what is placed, then it has to be absolutely bomb proof. It's just conceited and ignorant to do otherwise. :-)

On 9/02/2009 simey wrote:>It would be a worthwhile exercise if someone is planning on re-equipping>any old routes to make a similar video of bolt removal.>I would be intrigued to see the pull-out strength of many of the old carrots>that currently exist on existing classics.

90% of the time you'll see a lot of huffng and puffing and then someone snapping the bolt off. The ease which these expansions were removed is the worst i have ever seen, and the reason i am interested in seeing if they can be installed better.

On 9/02/2009 nmonteith wrote:>The ease which these expansions were removed is>the worst i have ever seen, and the reason i am interested in seeing if>they can be installed better.

While I understand your technical curiosity about this, in my view it's counterproductive even talking about it because it dilutes the message "don't use bolts like this in soft sandstone" with the message "maybe they just weren't installed right and maybe they are okay to use".

In reply to Manacubus... I don't think people are going to be rushing to install these type of bolts in Blueys sandstone.

But the Blueys aren't the only climbing area in the world. Personally I would like to know whether these sort of bolts can be placed much better in soft rock in case I find myself clipping these bolts at some other crag in some other part of the world.

On 9/02/2009 nmonteith wrote:>On 9/02/2009 simey wrote:>>It would be a worthwhile exercise if someone is planning on re-equipping>>any old routes to make a similar video of bolt removal.>>I would be intrigued to see the pull-out strength of many of the old>carrots>>that currently exist on existing classics.>>90% of the time you'll see a lot of huffng and puffing and then someone>snapping the bolt off. The ease which these expansions were removed is>the worst i have ever seen, and the reason i am interested in seeing if>they can be installed better.

Many of the bolts which were pulled out of Urbanville (NSW) recently came out with minimal effort. These bolts were the stailess steel machine bolts with a dab of araldite on the end (not technically a carrot bolt). All they needed was a 1/4 turn and then you pull them out.