The MM#7 clone with all Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses also looks very good. How did you and your tasters like the pizza and did you like the MM#7 pizza as well as the MM#6 pizza and, if not, why not? Also, did you detect sweetness in the finished crust and did the salt level work out OK? And did you like the Pendleton Power flour better than the KASL? Any other observations?

Peter

Peter,

My taste testers and I really couldn’t tell much difference from the MM#6 formulation and the MM#7 formulation. The one thing that stands out the most with the MM#7 formulation is the crumb seemed to a little bit moister. The taste of the sweetness was about the same as last week when using the MM#6 formulation. The salt level did work okay for me. I really can say if it was the Pendleton Power flour that made the little difference in the MM clone today or if it was the longer ferment time. Today, the dough fermented more at market than any of my other attempts at market. I wanted to see if the dough really fermented a lot if that made any difference. I really couldn’t notice much difference in opening the dough or how the pie baked. This dough with its lower hydration still makes a pizza with a moist crumb and it still has great oven spring. The dough today still could be tossed and twirled with no problems.

I had a regular customer and his wife that usually buy about 3 or 4 slices each week at market and I asked them if they want to taste a split slice and they said yes. They both really liked the MM#7 clone and then proceeded to buy another slice. They asked if the dough was made with whole wheat and we said no it wasn’t made from whole wheat flour.

Is it just me or does the rim look under cooked? I dunno if the color from the molasses is throwing me off or what but it looks really doughey. Ive never heard of mellow mushroom pizza but i am curious. Just dont know if i would like it if its really doughey. Maybe it should be called mellow mush...room?

FeChef,

I really don’t think the rim is under cooked. Maybe others might disagree with what I think. I ate a real MM pizza in Washington, DC and the rim was moist when I ate the pizza. I took home another MM pizza and even though the bottom crust was darker, the rim was still moist. The molasses does contribute to a moist rim, at least in my opinion.

In addition to my other post about the MM#7 clone attempt yesterday, the MM clone dough ball was left on a metal container on top of the deck oven for a little over two hrs. The temperature there is a lot warmer than right in the market stand. That is probably why the dough ball fermented so much more.

The results are in on my experiment with the latest MM dough clone formulation. For that formulation, I used only the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, at a rate of 11.3%. The nominal formula hydration was 51% and the salt was 1.50%. I also took a step back to our early experiments and decided to replace 2.5% of the KABF/VWG blend with Kretschmer's Vitamin E-enriched toasted wheat germ (unground).

The experiment showed that the Steen's cane syrup (aka "open kettle molasses") can be used all by itself. There was detectable sweetness in the finished crust, and the color of the dough and finished crust were in line with the color benchmark I have been using. However, it seemed to me that the wheat germ detracted from the flavor of the crust, with an overly "wheaty" flavor. Maybe I became conditioned to the lighter tasting crusts of my more recent experiments where I did not use any wheat germ. We were never able to ascertain how much wheat germ MM was using in its earlier dough formulation, or even its form (toasted or untoasted, ground or unground), so it is possible that the amount that MM used was quite small, less than the 2.5% I used. I am not ready to give up on a wheat germ version, but it may mean using less than 2.5%. I picked the 2.5% number because, according to what I was told by a wheat germ professional I spoke with during my research phase of this project, that is the amount of wheat germ that is naturally present in flour before it is extracted from the flour.

I hope soon to sit down and carefully and analytically study the 19 expanded dough calculating tool printouts of MM clone dough formulations that I have devised thus far, for myself and Norma and other members, to see which ones produced the best results for my particular palate. I am always comparing them and what I have observed is that the the major changes that have produced the best results to date is reducing the formula hydration (to around 51%) and using a lot (around 11-12%) of the right kinds of sweeteners--the ones that yield sweetness and the right amount of color. Lowering the salt levels (to around 1.50-1.60%) may also have helped, but even then the changes have not been dramatic. The amount of oil (around 2-2.5%) and the amount of IDY (0.60%) have remained pretty steady throughout.

I'm not really surprised on your reaction to the wheat germ. The first clone attempt I made had a formula percent 1.75% germ. At one point I bumped it to 3% and was really disappointed in the "wheaty" or "nutty" flavor.

The first time I used the germ in the crust, however, I did have the reaction of thinking it was somewhat of a "missing link" in the unique MM taste I remembered. I had not eaten at an MM in quite a while at that point in time, so I was recalling perhaps the old MM formulations. This may or may not be useful information.

With your recent experiments as an inspiration, I may try a little Germ in the coming weeks. It would be a very small amount so as to not overpower the sweetness.

I finally could access the Nutrition Facts for Mellow Mushroom like Gene did before in this thread. I guess I had pop-ups blocked before, so I allowed pop-ups for one time on my computer. I am not sure if this additional information about the allergens will help or not.

Thank you for the pop-up tip. I couldn't open up the links directly but was able to when I disabled the pop-up blocker.

The Allergens pdf document is indeed helpful. Ever since Biz told us that a worker in one of the MM stores he visited said that the oil used in their dough was soybean oil (Reply 128 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg154007.html#msg154007), I have had a nagging suspicion that that might not be true, both because soybean oil did not seem to fit the MM "philosophy" of its founders of offering wholesome and nutritious products free of known allergens (and also products attractive to vegetarians, vegans, etc.), and because I did not feel that one could rely on anything told to them by workers at the MM store level. Following up on my suspicions, I even conducted several Google searches at the time to see if I could find anything about the type of oil used in the MM dough. I found nothing. Well, the answer is in. If you look at the next to the last entry in the Allergens pdf document on page 8, you will see that there are no soybean products in the Pizza Crust. There are a few specialty pizzas that do include soybean products but they either include something like tofu, which is produced from soybeans, or they include ground beef that I suspect includes some textured soybean protein.

All of this begs the question of what the oil is that is used in the MM dough. If I had to make a guess, I would go with canola oil, or possibly a light olive oil, both of which are considered heart healthy oils (they are low in saturated fats, have no trans fats and are rich in mono- and polyunsaturated fats and Omega 3/6 fatty acids). They also do not show up on allergens lists. In addition, they are readily and widely available and reasonably low in cost. Either would fit the MM philosophy. Of course, other oils might fit that philosophy also, like grapeseed oil or possibly sunflower or safflower oil, but if one of those oils was used in the MM dough, I think they would have touted their nutritional superiority in their promotional materials, as they did with wheat germ and Vitamin E. Plus, they are more expensive.

I do not see anything in the above analysis that suggests that substituting some other oil for soybean oil will produce a materially different result, particularly at the roughly 2.5% level. I derived the most recent percent of oil from my analysis of the MM Nutrition Facts. I was hoping to hear by now on my recent questions that I raised in an email to MM so that I could confirm my analysis but I have not yet gotten a response. I think I already know the answers but I would still like to get confirmation. I plan to follow up on the matter again early next week.

Thank you for the pop-up tip. I couldn't open up the links directly but was able to when I disabled the pop-up blocker.

The Allergens pdf document is indeed helpful. Ever since Biz told us that a worker in one of the MM stores he visited said that the oil used in their dough was soybean oil (Reply 128 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg154007.html#msg154007), I have had a nagging suspicion that that might not be true, both because soybean oil did not seem to fit the MM "philosophy" of its founders of offering wholesome and nutritious products free of known allergens (and also products attractive to vegetarians, vegans, etc.), and because I did not feel that one could rely on anything told to them by workers at the MM store level. Following up on my suspicions, I even conducted several Google searches at the time to see if I could find anything about the type of oil used in the MM dough. I found nothing. Well, the answer is in. If you look at the next to the last entry in the Allergens pdf document on page 8, you will see that there are no soybean products in the Pizza Crust. There are a few specialty pizzas that do include soybean products but they either include something like tofu, which is produced from soybeans, or they include ground beef that I suspect includes some textured soybean protein.

All of this begs the question of what the oil is that is used in the MM dough. If I had to make a guess, I would go with canola oil, or possibly a light olive oil, both of which are considered heart healthy oils (they are low in saturated fats, have no trans fats and are rich in mono- and polyunsaturated fats and Omega 3/6 fatty acids). They also do not show up on allergens lists. In addition, they are readily and widely available and reasonably low in cost. Either would fit the MM philosophy. Of course, other oils might fit that philosophy also, like grapeseed oil or possibly sunflower or safflower oil, but if one of those oils was used in the MM dough, I think they would have touted their nutritional superiority in their promotional materials, as they did with wheat germ and Vitamin E. Plus, they are more expensive.

I do not see anything in the above analysis that suggests that substituting some other oil for soybean oil will produce a materially different result, particularly at the roughly 2.5% level. I derived the most recent percent of oil from my analysis of the MM Nutrition Facts. I was hoping to hear by now on my recent questions that I raised in an email to MM so that I could confirm my analysis but I have not yet gotten a response. I think I already know the answers but I would still like to get confirmation. I plan to follow up on the matter again early next week.

Peter

Peter,

Your suspicions are usually correct. I never thought about soybean oil did not seem to fit the MM “philosophy” of a product that is free of allergens. I didn’t really study the allergens list, but do see now where the pizza crust does not contain soy.

For my last few attempts I have been using what is called Vegetable Oil 1-2-3 It says it is cholesterol free. The products ingredients list canola oil, sunflower oil, and TBHQ (don’t know what that is) It says on the label the TBHQ is an antioxidant. I bought the Vegetable Oil 1-2-3 at my local Dollar Store. It is a lot cheaper than regular vegetable oil or olive oil. The product is made in Mexico. I really don’t know how good that product is, but it did work okay in my attempts.

I never would understand how you can do the analysis for roughly 2.5% level from the Nutrition Facts, but I know you can.

Hopefully you will get an answers back from MM either before your follow-up or after.

Wow, that's interesting info (and lack thereof) about the oil. The gal in Franklin did indeed specifically say soybean, but for the reasons Peter noted, I agree that any info from a worker is dubious.

I just made my dough ball for tomorrow night's pie.

I finally ran out of Brer Rabbit Mild, so I was able to use the Grandma's Original. Having used Brer for so long, I can definitely say that Grandma's is much milder and sweeter. My wife much prefers the Brer in a direct taste test, but I kinda like the Grandma's. So of course I expect my next pie to be sweeter and less molasses-y.

I followed the same formula as the last one I posted, except I added 0.75% untoasted, unground wheat germ (Hodgson Mill).

I left the ball out, covered, on the counter for about 20 mins before refrigerating it. This is due to the fact that my last dough ball did not seem to have much action to it, even after my normal ~2.5 hour temper.

I am also out of honey, so next week I may try to use all Grandma's at a higher %, or use the Lyle's Golden Syrup in place of the honey.

I made a 4 dough ball batch at market yesterday to try out for Tuesday. I sure don’t know what I did wrong, but I must have weighed the flour wrong. I had to add extra flour to make the dough less sticky, but I thought I had it measured out correctly. Should be interesting to see what happens with those dough balls on Tuesday.

For some time I have been meaning to read the actual FDA regulations that govern how Nutrition Facts are created and required to be reported. So, over the weekend, pending a response from MM on the questions I recently posed to them (I sent a followup email on Saturday), I studied the applicable FDA regulations (21CFR101.9). For those who are interested in those regulations, see http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2011/aprqtr/21cfr101.9.htm.

Armed with the FDA information on Total Fats and Saturated Fats, I then went to the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/ and examined the various types of oils listed there to see which ones appear to satisfy the numbers on total fats and sat fats as derived from the MM Nutrition Facts. As was recently reported, soybean oil has been ruled out, even though it does satisfy the numbers on fats in the MM Nutrition Facts. Peanut oil and treenut oils can also be ruled out since, according to the MM Allergens pdf document cited recently by Norma, treenuts/treenut oils are not used in any of the MM pizza-related products except for pine nuts (e.g., to make pesto). Interestingly, canola oil just missed the cut (a bit too low on sat fats), as was also the case with sunflower oil, safflower oil, flaxseed oil, and grapeseed oil. Since MM is presumably complying with the FDA rules, I would rule out these oils for the time being.

As for the oils that do satisfy the MM Nutrition Facts, they include olive oil, corn oil and cottonseed oil (unhydrogenated). Sesame oil and rice bran oil also pass muster but it is unlikely that MM is using specialty oils like these. One of the more interesting oils that did pass muster is wheat germ oil. That oil is rich in Vitamin E. One might be tempted to think that maybe that is what MM used in its doughs in the past, but MM only referred to "wheat germ" as part of its flour blend, not the oil of the wheat germ. Moreover, MM has recently said that it is no longer using wheat germ or Vitamin E enrichment, which would appear to rule out wheat germ oil.

So, where does all this leave us? I think it is safe to use any of the basic oils mentioned above can be used to make the MM clone doughs, including blends of oils. I say this for two reasons. First, the numbers for all of the oils mentioned above are all very similar even though some of them do not make the cut because they are a little shy on saturated fats. Second, the amount of oil used in MM's dough as best I can calculate it is quite small. For example, for a 12-ounce dough ball for a 10" pizza (the size I have been using in my MM dough clone experiments), it is around one teaspoon (or about 2.5%). As between olive oil, corn oil and cottonseed oil, I tend to think that MM is not using olive oil, mainly because of cost (although a pomace olive oil would be a cheaper form). Also, if they are using olive oil, I would think that they would promote that fact because of the beneficial effects of using that oil. Cottonseed oil and corn oil would be much cheaper to use. They are commodity oils with no marketing or promotional or health benefit to be derived by touting them to the consuming public.

Do you have plans on any more experiments on a MM clone formulation with corn oil. Cottonseed oil, or olive oil, or are you satisfied from all the experiments all the members did ?

Norma,

Because of the hot Texas summers and their potential harmful effects on oils, I generally only buy oils that I want to use in small amounts and as I need them. I always have olive oil on hand, and I purchased a small bottle of soybean oil (which I refrigerate) for the MM clone dough experiments, but I do not currently have any corn oil or cottonseed oil on hand. I am not even sure I can find cottonseed oil in my local supermarkets, or at least I can't recollect seeing it. I will have to check the next time I am there. Even though I don't think that one teaspoon of oil for a 12-ounce dough ball will make much of a difference compared with soybean oil, I may try olive oil in a future experiment, even though the ones I have on hand are high-quality extra virgin olive oils.

In general, I am satisfied with where we are in the MM reverse engineering and cloning project. At the moment I have an experimental dough in progress whose purpose is to determine whether my analysis of the "sugars" recited in the MM Nutrition Facts is correct. "Sugars" can be tricky because they may not be a constant and may vary during fermentation as they are created and used, and may even change during baking with their caramelization and participation in the Maillard reactions. I would love to know what kind of instrumentation the people who create the Nutrition Facts for their products actually use to come up with the "sugars" entry and when they use that equipment. Or maybe there is some kind of software that can calculate the values to include in the Nutrition Facts. Based on what I read in the FDA document referenced earlier, it appears that the MM Nutrition Facts are for their products as purchased, which in the case of pizzas would be baked pizzas. This would be consistent with what I learned last week when I sent an email to Jet's Pizza and asked whether their Nutrition Facts are for unbaked or baked pizzas. The answer I got was that the Nutrition Facts are for baked pizzas.

I also have another experiment in the planning stage that will relate to hydration matters. If I learn anything of value from the experiments, I will report them.

Because of the hot Texas summers and their potential harmful effects on oils, I generally only buy oils that I want to use in small amounts and as I need them. I always have olive oil on hand, and I purchased a small bottle of soybean oil (which I refrigerate) for the MM clone dough experiments, but I do not currently have any corn oil or cottonseed oil on hand. I am not even sure I can find cottonseed oil in my local supermarkets, or at least I can't recollect seeing it. I will have to check the next time I am there. Even though I don't think that one teaspoon of oil for a 12-ounce dough ball will make much of a difference compared with soybean oil, I may try olive oil in a future experiment, even though the ones I have on hand are high-quality extra virgin olive oils.

In general, I am satisfied with where we are in the MM reverse engineering and cloning project. At the moment I have an experimental dough in progress whose purpose is to determine whether my analysis of the "sugars" recited in the MM Nutrition Facts is correct. "Sugars" can be tricky because they may not be a constant and may vary during fermentation as they are created and used, and may even change during baking with their caramelization and participation in the Maillard reactions. I would love to know what kind of instrumentation the people who create the Nutrition Facts for their products actually use to come up with the "sugars" entry and when they use that equipment. Or maybe there is some kind of software that can calculate the values to include in the Nutrition Facts. Based on what I read in the FDA document referenced earlier, it appears that the MM Nutrition Facts are for their products as purchased, which in the case of pizzas would be baked pizzas. This would be consistent with what I learned last week when I sent an email to Jet's Pizza and asked whether their Nutrition Facts are for unbaked or baked pizzas. The answer I got was that the Nutrition Facts are for baked pizzas.

I also have another experiment in the planning stage that will relate to hydration matters. If I learn anything of value from the experiments, I will report them.

I really don’t think it will make much difference, but I do have corn oil and regular olive oil on hand. If you ever want me to do an experiment using one of them in a MM formulation I have already tried I could do the experiment.

I can understand “sugars” could be tricky in determining how much sugars are used in the fermentation process and also might change in the Maillard reactions.

Will wait to see how your experiment works out if you were able to analyze the “sugars” recited in the MM Nutrition Facts is correct.

Thank you for the links and names of some firms that are involved in preparing Nutrition Facts. I once conducted a similar search, before I got to where I am today in my understanding of Nutrition Facts, but deemed it premature at the time for me to call them, plus I couldn't imagine that someone at one of the firms would be willing to spend time trying to teach a novice who would not be a client or a source of revenues on some very complicated matters.

Earlier tonight, I did some more research on the FDA website to see what "sugars" constitute and how they are determined. What I learned is that one has to "determine the weight in grams of all free monosaccharides and disaccharides". That means sugars like sucrose, fructose, glucose, etc. My next step is to see how and when that is done.

Earlier tonight, I did some more research on the FDA website to see what "sugars" constitute and how they are determined. What I learned is that one has to "determine the weight in grams of all free monosaccharides and disaccharides". That means sugars like sucrose, fructose, glucose, etc. My next step is to see how and when that is done.

Peter

Okay, this thread has officially passed into the realm of unadulterated pizza geekdom!!

Thank you for the links and names of some firms that are involved in preparing Nutrition Facts. I once conducted a similar search, before I got to where I am today in my understanding of Nutrition Facts, but deemed it premature at the time for me to call them, plus I couldn't imagine that someone at one of the firms would be willing to spend time trying to teach a novice who would not be a client or a source of revenues on some very complicated matters.

Earlier tonight, I did some more research on the FDA website to see what "sugars" constitute and how they are determined. What I learned is that one has to "determine the weight in grams of all free monosaccharides and disaccharides". That means sugars like sucrose, fructose, glucose, etc. My next step is to see how and when that is done.

Peter

Peter,

If you decide to call any company that does Nutrition Facts for food products you can always give them the old line that you are doing consulting work for me and would like to know different answers to the questions you want to know. At least you do understand how to calculate Nutrition Facts and are knowledgeable about everything.

Good luck in your next project! You lost me already. Remember, I can't even calculate right.

Okay, this thread has officially passed into the realm of unadulterated pizza geekdom!!

Biz,

LOL. Actually, I think it has been that way since your first post on the forum . But, slowly but surely, despite a bunch of dead ends and following leads that led to nowhere, we seem to have moved the ball down the field quite a way.