What's the difference between 'brain fog' and 'feeling out of it'? Maybe the grumpy symptoms, etc., were unrelated to POIS?

Sorry for the somewhat vague description--it's sometimes hard to put my symptoms into words. The grumpy feelings were distinctly POIS-related--i.e. they are the ones that I often get towards evening-time of the day after release. In terms of 'brain fog' vs. 'feeling out of it', I suppose by 'brain fog' I meant something specifically mental that makes it hard for me to think and process and interact with others, whereas by 'feeling out of it', I meant a more general 'not feeling quite right', as one might feel in the case of other illnesses, such as a cold or a fever.

In the last couple months, my POIS has become rather unusual. After one orgasm, I commonly get all of the mental symptoms -- brain fog, social anxiety, etc. Sometimes a subsequent orgasm can alleviate these symptoms. HOWEVER, the relief only lasts for a few hours up to a day. Then I get this symptom of severe distress and anxiety, making it almost impossible to concentrate and develop my thoughts. This distress does not improve with time. Rather, it is worst in the morning until early afternoon, and becomes almost non-existent in the evening. It then gets worse again in the morning, and this cycle repeats.

I'm thinking this might have something to do with cortisol: cortisol is usually highest in the morning, and decreases steadily until you go to bed. If there are any other ideas, though, I'd be happy to hear them. Alcohol makes this symptom worse. For example, if I drink in the evening, I will also likely feel this 'distress' in the evening.

In the last couple months, my POIS has become rather unusual. After one orgasm, I commonly get all of the mental symptoms -- brain fog, social anxiety, etc. Sometimes a subsequent orgasm can alleviate these symptoms. HOWEVER, the relief only lasts for a few hours up to a day. Then I get this symptom of severe distress and anxiety, making it almost impossible to concentrate and develop my thoughts. This distress does not improve with time. Rather, it is worst in the morning until early afternoon, and becomes almost non-existent in the evening. It then gets worse again in the morning, and this cycle repeats.

I'm thinking this might have something to do with cortisol: cortisol is usually highest in the morning, and decreases steadily until you go to bed. If there are any other ideas, though, I'd be happy to hear them. Alcohol makes this symptom worse. For example, if I drink in the evening, I will also likely feel this 'distress' in the evening.

I don't really have a solution, but I know alcohol causes a lack of vitamin B1. This vitamin works with manganese in the body. In a book about oligotherapy they say that manganese is given for allergies, fatigue in the morning, and probably eczema if I remember well. Also they give manganese-copper after sexual excess. I'd suggest to increase food rich in manganese and B1. For manganese:(oat,hazelnuts,..). B1 is easily destroyed by heat.

It seems to me that exhaustion, fatigue and the other common symptoms of POIS require an incredible energy expenditure. We get into this deficit, and it takes time to come out of it. Our bodies require rest and rebalancing of hormones, neurotransmitters etc. Our nervous system has to return to "normal". Do we burn calories faster than others and at an intensity that puts us into a fight or flight response even though this excitatory period is relatively short, and we are obviously not in fear. For one, I've often thought that I'm releasing adrenaline almost as if there is a "wiring" error and my hyper-excitatory state is mistaken for danger. How else to explain the exhaustion and associated physical conditions? Lately my thought process has taken me to consider adrenal exhaustion as a possible cause of my problems and a nervous system that needs to be seriously built up. I definitely believe that my overall predispostion to anxiety contributes to the intense excitatory state that precipitates POIS and that my body may just become too overloaded. I wish it weren't like this; HOWEVER, I'm hopeful we will find a variety of natural solutions to boost our immune system (for lack of a better term)or strengthen our nervous system and improve our lives. This forum is the best place to brain storm and share ideas no matter how crazy. Remember, it is the accidental discovery that often seems to lead the way for cures. My latest experiments will be with Valerian Root and Holy Basil extract, just to improve my sleep and reduce anxiety. I'll go from there.

Underwater: I also have an overly sensitive nervous system. I think that that and adrenal fatigue go together.CFS is the primary cause for MY adrenal fatigue, and being struck by lightning in 1979 is one of the main causesof my weak, and tweaked, nervous system.

What I've noticed over much time observing my exhaustion is that in my case both the anxiety and the depressive symptoms are caused by being overly exhausted. When I have "more" energy, (relatively speaking for someone who has CFS), then I DO NOT have any anxiety or depression. But if my adrenals are drained by even minimal over-exertion, then my fatigue manifests as a kind of hyperactive anxious state. If I push further and drain myself more, then I go down further into the depressive level. As soon as I take action to restore my adrenals with: regular meals and an early bedtime, deliberate efforts to "chill out" and not push my energy, and supplements that aid in the pro-cess, the anxiety and/or depressive symptoms disappear. At this point I can get on top of them in 2-3 days, as longas there is no serious stress factors in my life at the time.

Adrenal boosting herbs like Siberian ginseng and schizandra, and adrenal boosting vitamins like Vitamin C and B5 (pantothenic acid) have been life savers for me. Also Holy Basil, Rhodiola, and phosphotidyl serine, which are all cortisol lowering, have been helpful at certain times as well. For the nerves, one of the best things I've taken is amineral supplement called Macro Night, which is locally made, and extra magnesium--which has been fantastic for my nerves as well. Lately I've also made a real effort to include yoga breathing exercises into my day--just remem-bering to stop and take some deep breaths whenever I am stressing or rushing, has been so helpful to reprogram my nervous system to not go into overdrive. There is nothing quite as basic and as powerful as deep breathing. In our culture we have definitely lost touch with that.

I think for all cases for you, if you fight supposed inflammation after orgasm, your condition might be better.

I wonder if some of the 12-hour non-steroidal anti-inflammatory preparations (NSAIDS) sold over-the-counter - like *Aleve® with Naproxen Sodium - would work on POIS?

The problem with NSAIDS is that they can cause stomach problems for some people. And kidney problems as well.

"Adverse effects of NSAIDS

The widespread use of NSAIDs has meant that the adverse effects of these relatively safe drugs have become increasingly prevalent. The two main adverse drug reactions (ADRs) associated with NSAIDs relate to gastrointestinal (GI) effects and renal effects of the agents. These effects are dose-dependent, and in many cases severe enough to pose the risk of ulcer perforation, upper gastrointestinal bleeding, and death, limiting the use of NSAID therapy. An estimated 10-20% of NSAID patients experience dyspepsia, and NSAID-associated upper gastrointestinal adverse events are estimated to result in 103,000 hospitalizations and 16,500 deaths per year in the United States, and represent 43% of drug-related emergency visits. Many of these events are avoidable; a review of physician visits and prescriptions estimated that unnecessary pre-scriptions for NSAIDs were written in 42% of visits. (Green, 2001)"

"Renal ADRsNSAIDs are also associated with a relatively high incidence of renal adverse drug reactions (ADRs). The mechanism of these renal ADRs is due to changes in renal haemodynamics (blood flow), ordinarily mediated by prostaglandins, which are affect-ed by NSAIDs. Prostaglandins normally cause vasodilation of the afferent arterioles of the glomeruli. This helps maintain normal glomerular perfusion and glomerular filtration rate (GFR), an indicator of renal function. By blocking this prostaglan-din mediated effect, NSAIDs ultimately may cause renal impairment."[/i][/i]

I have been working on this problem since May of 91 when I first felt it in me.I have noticed, in myself and a few others, various stages of depletion prior to orgasm according to my level of sexual activity.

Anyone noticed that?

Once again, grateful to know that there are others who have had this experience.

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:http://pois.olympe-network.com/

My experience has been, for 18 years, that when I am orgasmic I feel "pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization”, I think what you would call ‘brain fog’ plus myalgia. It’s a stupor, a physical, not emotional, depression. I notice I lose my clarity, intuition, resilience and personal power in relationships . It takes two full days to recuperate just physically. The third day I call ‘blip day’ because intermittant desires to be sexual again begin to appear. The third day I call ‘cavalier day” because I am forgetting how poorly I felt four days before and begin to act carelessly. The fifth day is “I am ready day”. Completely healed, I once more feel all the natural urges of a healthy man and have completely forgotten the first two days of suffering. The nefarious aspect of this illness, for me , is that about 1-1 ½ times out of 10 times I can be orgasmic with absolutely no consequences…

This is what noticed first, but, over the years, I began to notice other stages in the illness …and that’s what I’m curious to ask other folks on the blog site about...

Secondly, I noticed that when I roll the sexual activity back to being non-orgasmically, but still genitally, sexual there seems to be considerably less loss of energy and the symptoms are dramatically reduced…but they are still present. Here, Waldinger’s proposition that there is an ‘allergic reaction’ occuring makes sense...so with less contact there is less reactive loss. Thirdly, having gained some ground on the illness, I thought I’d try to roll the sexual activity level back to hugging, kissing (without tongues), just to see what would happen. A whole new level of “wellness” appeared accompanied with a sense of what can best be described as a sense of bouyency. Fourthly, I rolled back to dating with absolutely no contact…I improved noticibly. Fifthly and finally, and this seems to infuriate people for some reason, I tried no dating and no thoughts of dating there was absolutely no sign of this illness anywhere to be found and it stayed that way for as long as I stayed that way.

I have noticed this in dozen’s of other men and a few women and wanted to know if anyone here has noticed any of their own anticipatory stages to the onset of this debilitating disease.

The nefarious aspect of this illness, for me , is that about 1-1 ½ times out of 10 times I can be orgasmic with absolutely no consequences…

Yes, I have that too. Except probably more like 3 out of 10 times. I don't really understand your point in regards to relationship activity. For example, if you try "no dating and no thoughts of dating" is there "no sign of the illness" even when you have orgasm? You can't indefinitely postpone orgasm, since there will be nocturnal emissions, etc.

Steve--Nice Description--I think there is a correlation between "intensity of experience" (obviously totally subjective to each persons physiology), biochemical/bioelectric reactions therein, and recovery time. Lately, I've given a lot of thought to how I can strengthen my overall immune and nervous system. Perhaps the recovery time and intensity of discomfort can be diminished. I'm quite aware of the list of hormones and neurotransmitters that may very well be inolved in POIS and the imbalances triggered by orgasm (and even less than orgasm as you mention), but from past experiences, I know that there are ways to diminish the symptoms. Unfortunately for me, I can't run marathons anymore nor swim 80 minutes a day. This wipes out a good part of my endorphins that used to significantly reduce POIS. Also, I don't like to take drugs.There have been periods in my life where small, sub therapeudic doses of valium used to help. But I won't do this anymore. Right now, I'm as mystified as ever. However, I think that I will continue to experiment with supplements. I may swim every other day instead of everyday and walk on the non swim days. When you mention that one out of ten times you are okay, I think this may be a natural consequence of a more well rested nervous system and thus less triggering of stress hormones. For me unfortunately, there is a lot of anticipatory anxiety involved in my condition, and thus I bring on unnecessary fear and hyper-excitation that exacerbates my situation. I first started having POIS symptoms over 20 years ago, but I didn't really put two and two together for a couple of years later. My POIS symptoms are identical to my anxiety/panic symptoms, except they have traditionally lasted 2 to 5 days before they vanish.

Hello Counterpoints---I understand Steve to be referring holistically to his nervous system when he discusses POIS. He observes that POIS is interconnected to sexual activity. Orgasm is the trigger for POIS as appears to be logically necessary in its description, but I have unfortunately triggered POIS symptoms mistakenly by nocturnal, dream state confusion without orgasm. For me, there is without question a clear psycho "somatic"component to POIS, but rare. I have been trying to control that aspect of my condition with cognitive approaches, and it appears to be working. (cross my fingers)My next step (hopefully) is to try this approach with the real thing. This whole thing is a complex, mind boggling bummer.

1) deciding to be open to dating releases some chemical in my brain which is uncontrollable and light but it does not make my life unmanageable2) Dating- at this point all females become potential appropriate partners and my neurochemistry is affected with each passing woman as I scan to see whether she is A) attractive B) emotional available C) able to successfully commit, etc, down a long list of my mental requirements for someone to be my partner.3) hugging and kissing ( without tongues) My body is now engaged and it's like drinking 1 1/2 glasses of alcohol afterward...Still functional though4) non orgasmic sexuality. As as POIS sufferer I have learned to be non-orgasmic and yet I can be manually , orally or penal vaginally sexual , for hours . The onslaught of POIS symptoms is ferocious and I have not been orgasmic. I have made "heavy going" of life at this point. Normal activities are extremely difficult.5) Orgasmic sexuality...Now I experience the total immersion into pathology, what I call 'pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization'

>>>>> I'm quite aware of the list of hormones and neurotransmitters that may very well be involved in POIS and the imbalances triggered by orgasm (and even less than orgasm as you mention), but from past experiences, I know that there are ways to diminish the symptoms.

I know very little about the neurochemistry of this condition

>>>>Unfortunately for me, I can't run marathons anymore nor swim 80 minutes a day. This wipes out a good part of my endorphins that used to significantly reduce POIS.

That is illuminating. 18 months ago I decreased my cardio work outs due to L-5 problems , which may have contributed to the noticability of symptoms

>>>Also, I don't like to take drugs.

Me either. That would cause a whole new set of problems that would , for me, be more damaging than POIS

>>>> I may swim every other day instead of everyday and walk on the non swim days.

I swim every other day and do abs/freeweights and yoga on off days. It's not as much of a tonic as running, but it helps.

>>>>When you mention that one out of ten times you are okay, I think this may be a natural consequence of a more well rested nervous system and thus less triggering of stress hormones.

>>>>but I have unfortunately triggered POIS symptoms mistakenly by nocturnal, dream state confusion without orgasm.

I too, have triggered the POIS symptoms in nocturnal states, but only accompanied with orgasm. The most baffling thing though is that I have had three nocturnal emissions, recently, after no orgasm for 19 months, and I had absolutely no symptoms and felt what you would expect a normal man to feel upon being orgasmic. Happy, clean, light, quick stepped.

Steve---That's fabulous that your last 3 NE's have been POIS free. What do you think are the reasons? This is very interesting. Were there accompanying dreams or were you in deep sleep and unaware of anything? I hope this leads to a possible theories. I'm also very interested in your L-5 issues. My "current onslaught" of POIS and Anxiety began about 1 1/2 years ago with Lumbar Problems betweeen S-1 and L-5. This seemed to join up with my Anxiety and POIS to make this a horrible 1 1/2 years. When I'm not in POIS and generally without Anxiety, my Lower Back issues almost disappear. I'm still stiff, but a whole lot more pain free. In fact, I've noticed that when my back is all of a sudden feeling real good, any POIS or Anxiety I have also nearly disappears. It's as if my brain, spinal cord and pelvic floor muscles are one connected system.WEIRD

Counterpoints asked which blood tests were ordered after my POIS evaluation appointment, so they are listed below. I just now got the list, and was dismayed that CORTISOL was not listed. So I asked the endocrinologist if it could yet be included with today's creatinine blood test (kidney function). Creatinine test is required for pre-MRI injection so MRI results can be shown "with and without contrast".

Well, let's see where this goes. I'm happy that this doctor is taking POIS seriously. This is what he decided after listening to my discussion about this forum, seeing Dr Waldinger's paper, and asking detailed questions about my medical history.

I didn't want to push specific testing requests any further than this. I'm not the doctor.

Double Thanks Demografx:For Your Holiday Wishesand for sharing your lab test processes--I hope your efforts lead to some insight into hormone reactions with respect to POIS, and whether there is a sequence of biochemical events that may shed light on how our symptoms manifest themselves. Also, I assume that some of us may just have a genetic predispositon to this "illness". But this certainly does not preclude finding ways to diminish or "cure" this ailment. Thank your for this Forum. It is very therapeutic in itself.

Double Thanks Demografx:For Your Holiday Wishesand for sharing your lab test processes--I hope your efforts lead to some insight into hormone reactions with respect to POIS, and whether there is a sequence of biochemical events that may shed light on how our symptoms manifest themselves. Also, I assume that some of us may just have a genetic predispositon to this "illness". But this certainly does not preclude finding ways to diminish or "cure" this ailment. Thank your for this Forum. It is very therapeutic in itself.

Underwater, thanks for the double wishes!

Interesting that you bring up genetics. Embarrassingly, I told my two grown sons about my POIS (I felt I had to in case they had it) - and, "nope, no POIS here". Embarrassed? What can I say? I'm probably not the most enlightened guy on the planet.

Underwater, I'm so raging mad at having this stupid syndrome that I want us all to have a 110% (!) cure in 2009! 30+ years of this agony. Sheesh.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about this forum being therapeutic. Part of the agony before was finding ANYONE that understands!!!

The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks.
Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors
and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators,
sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.