Good news is the pressure in the pocket didn't affect Weeden at all and there doesn't appear there will be much of it this season.

At least they didn't turn the ball over and the first team dominated the Eagles 2s and 3s.

Wallace looked good. Very engaged.

When defenders are basically taking the snap along with you, ANY QB can't handle the pressure.

But I don't really give a fuck if you want to make it some special Weeden flaw that anyone else would've easily avoided. Whatever you say, I agree. None of this shit matters anyway. Repetitive and boring - the players, the performances, the games, the fans, the message boards.

Good news is the pressure in the pocket didn't affect Weeden at all and there doesn't appear there will be much of it this season.

At least they didn't turn the ball over and the first team dominated the Eagles 2s and 3s.

Wallace looked good. Very engaged.

When defenders are basically taking the snap along with you, ANY QB can't handle the pressure.

No shit? Really?

If only this issue could have been identified and addressed when they drafted in April.

Probably coulda really upgraded the OL with a pick at 22 AND one where Schwartz was picked.

Which has been a big part of the point since, well, forever. Put an immobile QB who struggled when pressured (much less nearly disemboweled) behind a mediocre or worse OL. Hard to see how that could lead us to what we watched Friday.

I know...I know... let's wait and see what happens when real bullets fly. That's the August version of "really like what they did in the draft..."

And spare me the "Give it time/these guys are young/blah blah blah.." I know that. I understand it. I get it as well as anyone here. And with strong coaching and excellent leadership they will get better.

dpdad wrote:Eagles defense way too quick for Browns o-line to handle.Hardesty probably packing his bags after tonight. Weeden struggling, not impressive at all.

Kosar alluded to the fact that the Eagles were crowding the line of scrimmage the entire first half. It was really much worse than he stated. On the one Weeden fumble, the Iggles had 10 guys within 2 yards of the LOS. Watching the game for a second time, I saw 9, 10 and 11 defenders right up in the gizzle of our offensive linemen.

Not only were there even the tiniest of seams for Hardesty, but an even bigger problem was that Weeden was not checking down to the right play for the defense he was seeing. Or maybe he just wasn't recognizing it — but it sure was evident from the high camera angle.

What I'm saying is that it wasn't all the OL's fault. A lot of it was, but not all of it.

Alot of it was 2 mediocre guards & a rookie right tackle getting outmatched, outgunned, & outnumbered. The Eagles have one of the deepest & talented DL in football and they took no mercy on us, further exposing Weeden's shotcomings/weaknesses and inexperience.

Compound that by Little deciding not to show up and Shurmur deciding stay vanilla and have us get our asses kicked in all night.

Plus the Eagles were pissed off about the short week and Andy "making" them play at Clown Stadium.

IF we look that inept in the regular season game then I vote to flush the entire idiot parade charade up there and have Flying J start the startover early.

On a positive note Gordon finally figured out how to put his helmet on and run a route.

Hikohadon wrote:When defenders are basically taking the snap along with you, ANY QB can't handle the pressure.

No shit? Really?

If only this issue could have been identified and addressed when they drafted in April.

Probably coulda really upgraded the OL with a pick at 22 AND one where Schwartz was picked.

Uh, wouldn't that have left them with Colt McCoy as their QB?

Doesn't matter. Weeden is a band-aid on a sucking chest wound. Better than McCoy but as I'll-suited as anyone else would be to play here and now. Could have gone a long way toward righting the OL wrongs and building from inside out.

Could have gotten a Weeden next year or the year after or the year after...He's not special enough or mobile enough to overcome this and 'this' is the entire situation he faces with this regime and this offensive roster.

Hikohadon wrote:Uh, wouldn't that have left them with Colt McCoy as their QB?

Doesn't matter. Weeden is a band-aid on a sucking chest wound. Better than McCoy but as I'll-suited as anyone else would be to play here and now. Could have gone a long way toward righting the OL wrongs and building from inside out.

Could have gotten a Weeden next year or the year after or the year after...He's not special enough or mobile enough to overcome this and 'this' is the entire situation he faces with this regime and this offensive roster.

Of course they should've waited another year to address the most important position on the field. It would've been awesome to watch them muddle their way to another 4 win season. They should've waited 2 maybe, since there's not really anyone very appetizing in the 2013 draft. They should've waited until there was a sure-fire Master of the Universe coming up then shot Colt b/c he was probably just good enough to blow a #1 overall pick. What's another 4 years?

I love the "Build everything else and then with this Super Bowl winning except for QB team they will still somehow suck enough to be in position to take Andrew Luck version 2015" solution to solving the QB problem. I don't see how that wouldn't work.

Their actions were especially stupid because there's no way that DeCastro would've been a band-aid replacing Lauvao or Hightower would've been a band-aid for Fujita or Mercilus would've been a band-aid for Juqua Parker. They're sure things.

Last edited by Hikohadon on Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

You two should be on that new Bravo show entitled The Real Browns Fans posters of TCF. More drama than Real Housewives of New York but not as nauseating as Jersey Shore. CDT could make a guest appearance as some tall lazy fuck who knows nothing about football.

So like, did you guys break up or what?

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

mattvan1 wrote:You two should be on that new Bravo show entitled The Real Browns Fans posters of TCF. More drama than Real Housewives of New York but not as nauseating as Jersey Shore. CDT could make a guest appearance as some tall lazy fuck who knows nothing about football.

So like, did you guys break up or what?

It looks like another long season and we're both bitchy about it and no one else is yelling at each other, so we're manufacturing dissent.

Hikohadon wrote:Uh, wouldn't that have left them with Colt McCoy as their QB?

Doesn't matter. Weeden is a band-aid on a sucking chest wound. Better than McCoy but as I'll-suited as anyone else would be to play here and now. Could have gone a long way toward righting the OL wrongs and building from inside out.

Could have gotten a Weeden next year or the year after or the year after...He's not special enough or mobile enough to overcome this and 'this' is the entire situation he faces with this regime and this offensive roster.

Of course they should've waited another year to address the most important position on the field. It would've been awesome to watch them muddle their way to another 4 win season. They should've waited 2 maybe, since there's not really anyone very appetizing in the 2013 draft. They should've waited until there was a sure-fire Master of the Universe coming up then shot Colt b/c he was probably just good enough to blow a #1 overall pick. What's another 4 years?

I love the "Build everything else and then with this Super Bowl winning except for QB team they will still somehow suck enough to be in position to take Andrew Luck version 2015" solution to solving the QB problem. I don't see how that wouldn't work.

Their actions were especially stupid because there's no way that DeCastro would've been a band-aid replacing Lauvao or Hightower would've been a band-aid for Fujita or Mercilus would've been a band-aid for Juqua Parker. They're sure things.

Because that's clearly what I said. Quit trying to win an argument and listen.

Another 4 years is another 8 years if they keep fucking it up. There were smarter, healthier ways to do this than taking Weeden there. I said it when it happened and it's clearer every day.

And you're going to watch them muddle their way to another 4-win season anyway. If they catch a break or two.

My God. Take a guy there who's limited in moving in and out of the pocket behind that offensive line and then keep telling me how it was justifiable and that it makes them better long term?

You got it bad, brother. And it's not getting better.

And if I'm stupid (and may well be) and can see this is really doesn't bode well for others.

Hikohadon wrote:Uh, wouldn't that have left them with Colt McCoy as their QB?

Doesn't matter. Weeden is a band-aid on a sucking chest wound. Better than McCoy but as I'll-suited as anyone else would be to play here and now. Could have gone a long way toward righting the OL wrongs and building from inside out.

Could have gotten a Weeden next year or the year after or the year after...He's not special enough or mobile enough to overcome this and 'this' is the entire situation he faces with this regime and this offensive roster.

Of course they should've waited another year to address the most important position on the field. It would've been awesome to watch them muddle their way to another 4 win season. They should've waited 2 maybe, since there's not really anyone very appetizing in the 2013 draft. They should've waited until there was a sure-fire Master of the Universe coming up then shot Colt b/c he was probably just good enough to blow a #1 overall pick. What's another 4 years?

I love the "Build everything else and then with this Super Bowl winning except for QB team they will still somehow suck enough to be in position to take Andrew Luck version 2015" solution to solving the QB problem. I don't see how that wouldn't work.

Their actions were especially stupid because there's no way that DeCastro would've been a band-aid replacing Lauvao or Hightower would've been a band-aid for Fujita or Mercilus would've been a band-aid for Juqua Parker. They're sure things.

Because that's clearly what I said. Quit trying to win an argument and listen.

Another 4 years is another 8 years if they keep fucking it up. There were smarter, healthier ways to do this than taking Weeden there. I said it when it happened and it's clearer every day.

And you're going to watch them muddle their way to another 4-win season anyway. If they catch a break or two.

My God. Take a guy there who's limited in moving in and out of the pocket behind that offensive line and then keep telling me how it was justifiable and that it makes them better long term?

You got it bad, brother. And it's not getting better.

And if I'm stupid (and may well be) and can see this is really doesn't bode well for others.

Yes dear.

You'll forgive me however if I foolishly wait until the end of the season to shoot the old gray mare that is Weeden. He might be the only reason I bother watching this shit team this year.

Last edited by Hikohadon on Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

You'll forgive me however if I foolishly wait until the end of the season to shoot the old gray mare that is Weeden. He might be the only reason I bother watching this shit team this year.

I'll watch too. And yeah, way more interesting because of Weeden. I'd go so far as to say he could be fine in 6-10 other systems/franchises. Somewhere with an established OL, coaches who weren't brain dead, a strong, experienced WR corps.... might be able to minimize the mobility issues and maximize what he does well. In fact, a lot of what's about to go wrong won't be his fault.

But that was always part of the point.

IMO that ain't happening here. I'll root for him and hope I'm wrong. But it makes less and less sense unless you consider more heavily that the regime was desperate and in career-saving mode. Long term they did this franchise no favors with most of their moves, this one definitely included.

And they're even more culpable given they knew what weaknesses they still had and what inexperience they still had at OL/WR and they didn't address it via free agency. Either because they were neglectful or because no one wants to play here without earning the "Shithole/Horrible Franchise" premium that would get them here.

Hilarious thread. I love it when people grade a coach based on a preseason game where they specifically said they weren't going to do any gameplanning and where they probably locked out some audibles and line calls that they'd prefer not to gift to the Philly dline before Sept 9th. Feel free to grade the OL. They got beat. Especially inside. Grade the talent which didn't look that bad aside from the turnovers.

But whatever. I'm sure you'll see exactly the same thing on 9/9. Because preseason is the most important season. The playbook is empty. Shurmur should have just committed Seppuku at halftime in disgrace although he's probably saving that until after Holmgren is killed next week at the hand of the great white savior Jimmy Haslem.

FUDU wrote:Yeah if only we had a full regular season's worth of goods on Shurmur to make such outlandish claims.

What exactly is the 'claim' of bad coaching from Friday? The game is a non sequitur to his ability to coach.

Might have well just started talking about how there's a hurricane in the Gulf and closed with the Browns were poorly coached last year.

Exactly. Another non-sequitir from the game Friday being Pinkston looked horrible. There's a hurricane in the Gulf and Pinkston looked horrible. That too should be fine. And if it's not, well, Oneil Cousins hasn't been cut yet.

I have no faith in Shurmur's ability to teach and motivate. But that (for me) is a lot further down the worry list than the fact the Browns were man-handled physically Friday.

True enough, the Eagles have as talented a group of DL as you're likely to find. Hopefully Weeden survives those kinds of ballgames and makes hay against the really terrible defenses in the NFL. Liek the ones in Pittsburgh and Baltimore, NYG, KC, etc.

I'm a big fan of Hali. Go ahead and sub out KC for SF if you like. And we probably need to make it front 7s given various teams get there in various ways.

Meh... who gives a fuck. I'm sure things will be fine.. You can argue here til you're blue in the face. I'm pretty firmly entrenched that the Weeden selection at that spot was a bad idea.

Bad spot to be in really. I could be wrong (which would be the ideal scenartio for obvious reasons) but even if I'm not I'll hear every reason in the world why it wasn't Weeden's shortcomings that are to blame. Despite the team's shortcomings and Weeden's own being the reason I disagree with what they did.

peeker643 wrote:I have no faith in Shurmur's ability to teach and motivate. But that (for me) is a lot further down the worry list than the fact the Browns were man-handled physically Friday.

True enough, the Eagles have as talented a group of DL as you're likely to find. Hopefully Weeden survives those kinds of ballgames and makes hay against the really terrible defenses in the NFL. Liek the ones in Pittsburgh and Baltimore, NYG, KC, etc.

Yup.

That has been my favorite narrative that I've heard a half dozen times since friday. The "Philly's DL is good" explanation for why our OL is yet again being treated like they are Ball State. If only we had some high draft picks on the line we'd be a lot better.

Yeah, I know the OL looked like shit but don't worry about it. Philly just had a good DL so we should be OK. It's not like we play in the same NFL or anything.

And I don't want peope to think I'm bailing on Weeden or Schwartz. No issue understandiong they're young and it'll take time.

But I'd have preferred someone like DeCastro at 22 and Schwartz where he went and filled in with shitty QB play this season.

That's what you're going to get anyway with a rookie QB that's not likely to keep plays alive with his legs and a shit OL.

And yeah, I know DeCastro's knee blew up the other night. Glad to hear it, too.

motherscratcher wrote:

peeker643 wrote:I have no faith in Shurmur's ability to teach and motivate. But that (for me) is a lot further down the worry list than the fact the Browns were man-handled physically Friday.

True enough, the Eagles have as talented a group of DL as you're likely to find. Hopefully Weeden survives those kinds of ballgames and makes hay against the really terrible defenses in the NFL. Liek the ones in Pittsburgh and Baltimore, NYG, KC, etc.

Yup.

That has been my favorite narrative that I've heard a half dozen times since friday. The "Philly's DL is good" explanation for why our OL is yet again being treated like they are Ball State. If only we had some high draft picks on the line we'd be a lot better.

Yeah, I know the OL looked like shit but don't worry about it. Philly just had a good DL so we should be OK. It's not like we play in the same NFL or anything.

I do have one theory on the Oline play from Friday. After the Detroit game the coaches should have had a good idea that our Oline does not have the speed to play a Wide 9 straight up. Assuming that they knew that, you would expect them to change some things around to combat the speed of a good Wide 9 front 7. The problem is we're playing Phi for real just two weeks after this game. So instead of making the adjustments that they saw were needed after the Det game, they again played it straight up and again got killed. Point being even if they did learn their lesson in the Det game they were not in a position to show their hand in this game. I honestly feel that we're going to see a much better and better schemed OL on September 9th than we saw in either of the preseason games against this defense.

"Strangers passing in the street, by chances two separate glances meet and I am you and what I see his me."

motherscratcher wrote:Why didn't Philly seem to be all that concerned about showing their hand?

They didn't have to, they could just out muscle us. My point being if the coaching staff had any brains (debatable) they know they can't face the Wide 9 straight up, but why would they show any adjustments made for this game. Hence it was a repeat of Detroit with us looking like shit.

"Strangers passing in the street, by chances two separate glances meet and I am you and what I see his me."

I think what kills me about our awful O-line play is that for the first glorious 4 minutes or so, we didn't see a minute of it. Beautiful throws down the field, quick decisions, etc. Crisp routes, passes on the money.

Then the fumble (which was horrific) and the ensuing shitshow for the rest of the first half, where half the time Weeden finished his drop and immediately had a defender in his face. (And lets be real, Tom Brady/Jay Cutler/Matt Ryan/etc are taking a sack there too, and half the time fumbling as well) The line just started getting hogmollied, and SHUR never did anything to adjust it.

I'm fascinated to see what happens in the regular season when that happens. I think 50% of the time it's going to be awfully bad, but the other 50% Weeden is going to punish people with his arm. The pocket presence is disconcerting, but the kid makes some nice throws.

Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.

peeker643 wrote:But I'd have preferred someone like DeCastro at 22 and Schwartz where he went and filled in with shitty QB play this season.

How many high picks does it take to create a quality NFL OL? You have 2 number one's already and a high two. Saying you need a 1st round guard is overkill when you have a 3rd and 5th rounder already invested. Now, the quality of the play I can't debate, but suggesting we need more number one round resources there is to me, nonsense. It's a gurad man. We're talkin' guards. I know, I think it's funny too. I mean, guards. Not the guys who score points. Not the guys who make game changing D plays, guards man. We're talking guards.

I saw Howard Mudd take goat piss and turn it into gasoline, and you did too in that era. I saw Kurt Ferentz convert a DLman and young, raw, lowpicks & UDFA's players into a first rate unit under BB after a couple rockey seasons.

Something stinks on the OL, but it isn't a case where they are putting out Jim Pyne, Scott Rehberg, Homeboi Steve Zahursky and Roger Chenoine and telling us it will gel in time. We need to draft a fuckin' guard number one like we need a hole in the head. On a roster with one legit awe ite pass rusher in today's NFL, zero decent skilled players except Joe Don Looney last year, NyQuel vs the world at LBer, and a patchwork of bustas besides haden in coverage, what we need is some coaching and a trigger finger to make a move if these "inconsistencies" can't get corrected.

The answer is you devote as many resources as necessary. I don't care if it's a guard or not, really. I don't care if it's a center. The Steelers were okay drafting guys like Faneca and DeCastro. They also took Kendall Simmons (which doesn't help my argument, I know) but they've been willing to spend big resources on that OL. You have a pocket passer in Weeden, right?

Theoretically he needs a pocket.

And if your coaches aren't developing them then you need guys who require less development or you need coaches who can turn shit to shinola. And you talk Mudd and Ferentz, only two of the very best in the business at that coaching spot. Go get a guy like that then. I don't care how they cobble it together. And Mudd benefitted tremendously here from the USFL defections in building his line. At least for a few years until Bernie was abused as badly as Weeden promises to be.

DeCastro and Zeitler went in RD 1 this year. Watkins and Iupati in years before. I know it ain't sexy and I'd rather have impact players too, but if you need a pocket to protect a passer you may need to dedicate more resources to it or make sure you have someone to develop them.

Weeden's going to be a pinata at this rate. And whether you believe in him or not you're never going to know if he's buried more often than not.

jb wrote:

peeker643 wrote:But I'd have preferred someone like DeCastro at 22 and Schwartz where he went and filled in with shitty QB play this season.

How many high picks does it take to create a quality NFL OL? You have 2 number one's already and a high two. Saying you need a 1st round guard is overkill when you have a 3rd and 5th rounder already invested. Now, the quality of the play I can't debate, but suggesting we need more number one round resources there is to me, nonsense. It's a gurad man. We're talkin' guards. I know, I think it's funny too. I mean, guards. Not the guys who score points. Not the guys who make game changing D plays, guards man. We're talking guards.

I saw Howard Mudd take goat piss and turn it into gasoline, and you did too in that era. I saw Kurt Ferentz convert a DLman and young, raw, lowpicks & UDFA's players into a first rate unit under BB after a couple rockey seasons.

Something stinks on the OL, but it isn't a case where they are putting out Jim Pyne, Scott Rehberg, Homeboi Steve Zahursky and Roger Chenoine and telling us it will gel in time. We need to draft a fuckin' guard number one like we need a hole in the head. On a roster with one legit awe ite pass rusher in today's NFL, zero decent skilled players except Joe Don Looney last year, NyQuel vs the world at LBer, and a patchwork of bustas besides haden in coverage, what we need is some coaching and a trigger finger to make a move if these "inconsistencies" can't get corrected.

peeker643 wrote:The answer is you devote as many resources as necessary. I don't care if it's a guard or not, really. I don't care if it's a center. The Steelers were okay drafting guys like Faneca and DeCastro. They also took Kendall Simmons (which doesn't help my argument, I know) but they've been willing to spend big resources on that OL. You have a pocket passer in Weeden, right?

Theoretically he needs a pocket.

And if your coaches aren't developing them then you need guys who require less development or you need coaches who can turn shit to shinola. And you talk Mudd and Ferentz, only two of the very best in the business at that coaching spot. Go get a guy like that then. I don't care how they cobble it together. And Mudd benefitted tremendously here from the USFL defections in building his line. At least for a few years until Bernie was abused as badly as Weeden promises to be.

DeCastro and Zeitler went in RD 1 this year. Watkins and Iupati in years before. I know it ain't sexy and I'd rather have impact players too, but if you need a pocket to protect a passer you may need to dedicate more resources to it or make sure you have someone to develop them.

Weeden's going to be a pinata at this rate. And whether you believe in him or not you're never going to know if he's buried more often than not.

jb wrote:

peeker643 wrote:But I'd have preferred someone like DeCastro at 22 and Schwartz where he went and filled in with shitty QB play this season.

How many high picks does it take to create a quality NFL OL? You have 2 number one's already and a high two. Saying you need a 1st round guard is overkill when you have a 3rd and 5th rounder already invested. Now, the quality of the play I can't debate, but suggesting we need more number one round resources there is to me, nonsense. It's a gurad man. We're talkin' guards. I know, I think it's funny too. I mean, guards. Not the guys who score points. Not the guys who make game changing D plays, guards man. We're talking guards.

I saw Howard Mudd take goat piss and turn it into gasoline, and you did too in that era. I saw Kurt Ferentz convert a DLman and young, raw, lowpicks & UDFA's players into a first rate unit under BB after a couple rockey seasons.

Something stinks on the OL, but it isn't a case where they are putting out Jim Pyne, Scott Rehberg, Homeboi Steve Zahursky and Roger Chenoine and telling us it will gel in time. We need to draft a fuckin' guard number one like we need a hole in the head. On a roster with one legit awe ite pass rusher in today's NFL, zero decent skilled players except Joe Don Looney last year, NyQuel vs the world at LBer, and a patchwork of bustas besides haden in coverage, what we need is some coaching and a trigger finger to make a move if these "inconsistencies" can't get corrected.

What's the definition of insanity?

Man, it is unlikely it is the input varaibles unless they are missing on all of these blokes. And you can't just look at it as 'as many as is needed". Not for guards peeker. We're talking guards. We need to start POURING high picks into defensive game changers.

They do, you're right. They need to pour more resources into more spots than the next three drafts can fill.

But that doesn't mean the OL, despite the resources they've already spent, is set and ready for 9/9/2012 and beyond.

And a little luck wouldn't hurt. Be great if one of these 4th-6th picks turned into the next big thing. But luck is on your side a lot more when you know exactly what you're doing. And when you're not changing systems, coaches, QBs, skilled personnel and owners every couple of years.

peeker643 wrote:They do, you're right. They need to pour more resources into more spots than the next three drafts can fill.

But that doesn't mean the OL, despite the resources they've already spent, is set and ready for 9/9/2012 and beyond.

And a little luck wouldn't hurt. Be great if one of these 4th-6th picks turned into the next big thing. But luck is on your side a lot more when you know exactly what you're doing. And when you're not changing systems, coaches, QBs, skilled personnel and owners every couple of years.

Two things - If you don't have the right guys there, fine, add in more developmental talent and for chrissakes sign a UFA vet. G may be the easiest position where good UFA talent actually moves & is attainable. But Christ on a pony, not a number one pick for a guard with this roster. It's one thing for a Pittsburgh to do that as a luxury. But not here. Not now.

But more importantly, Wintrop gets canned from every jhob aftyer a couple seasons. He's a mangina holdover. We have Guards who were college OLT's and they can't seem to move laterally on Sunday. I don't see guys getting blown up physically so much as guys running around them as they can't move in any sort of coordinated rhyme or reason. I therefore choose to scapegoat the OL coach in the absence of a better theory.

jb wrote:But more importantly, Wintrop gets canned from every jhob aftyer a couple seasons. He's a mangina holdover. We have Guards who were college OLT's and they can't seem to move laterally on Sunday. I don't see guys getting blown up physically so much as guys running around them as they can't move in any sort of coordinated rhyme or reason. I therefore choose to scapegoat the OL coach in the absence of a better theory.

Erie Warrior wrote:If you move up to draft your guy at RB, why not make sure he has the hogs in front of him?

OL was the pick at 22, and they blew it. Again.

Russell Wilson would have been available after. Maybe even Weeden.

Since Wilson went in the middle of the 3rd round, I'm guessing a whole lot of teams didn't have him rated as high as you. 3rd round QB's are developmental types that MAYBE start somewhere down the road. Only a moron front office would immediately rest their hopes on a guy like that.