I know one of the benefits of having a PU component is in the lamination and taping processes. Because PU adheres so well to the adhesive, Gore most likely thinks that the sacrifice in breathability is made up for in its durability.

Actually, I'm not sure this is the exact argument Gore uses. Don't forget that first generation Gore-tex had no PU-layer (and thus was even more breathable than eVENT). Even now almost 30 years later, the only argument I've heard why they added the PU-layers was the contamination issue. What I have heard is that Gore assumes or assumed that the inner coating is/was not durable enough and that in the medium or long term, contamination of the PTFE membrane could still take place. But to my knowledge, the enhanced production method used by BHA should address part of this problem. OTOH, even if contaminants would physically start to block the pores of the eVENT membrane, it would be much easier to remove than in first generation gore-tex since the bonding strength of the contaminants with the membrane woulde be lower in case of eVENT.

Even if the lack of a PU layer makes the construction harder and thus more difficult, then I still can't see why Gore wouldn't investigate this route. Can you imagine that a brand like Arc'teryx wouldn't jump on this wagon. They praise themself as the masters of lamination technology. Look at their line of packs or the new climbing harnesses; lamination is a distinct feature of all those products. I can 't imagine that they would leave this challenge to others. So what if it is more expensive. Since when has the price been an issue for Arc'teryx?

Check out this jacket. It is like no other available incorporating an iPod controller using copper-infused material as the 'wire' to transmit the signal to the iPod. It is cutting edge technology almost relegating the eVENT membrane to the back seat. It is constructed as well as any jacket on the market and is the only true competitor to Arcteryx. I say this and repeat it here only because very few people have even heard of Westcomb. I barely heard about it a few months ago. Since then I have toured the factories in Vancouver and have used several of their jackets in different conditions. It is as good as stuff as I have ever seen (I'm pretty picky) and the fit is the best I have ever worn (size medium). I am working hard to get it into more stores so that it can be seen by the general public. I believe they have ideas beyond eVENT that will revolutionize the outerwear market. They have already won 2 Polartec Apex Awards and ISPO BrandNew Award for 2007. It's a brand to keep your eye on for sure.

The problem of Westcomb is that they're a still a small company. I believe they only exist since 2004. The first time I heard about them was somewhere in 2006 and I have been trying to find out more since then. But there website has little information and the catalog/workbook I received has little more. They should pay more attention to what makes them different from the rest. Ok, they use eVENT but so do brands like Integral Designs and Loki and European brands like RAB are trying to get a piece of the NA market. So the fact that they use eVENT is not enough to make them different. I have a number of catalogs and workbooks from Arc'teryx and they are a master in showing there attention to detail. I think Westcomb should try to do the same.

The problem is that if nobody offers the perfect mix of all. eVENT has a distinct advantage in its mebrane technology while Gore seems to have the edge if you look to construction. An eVENT membrane combined with a Pro Shell backer should be awesome. Arc'teryx offers some features which e.g. Westcomb doesn't seem to offer and vice versa. One of the things I regret is that the latest jackets from Westcomb have no specific ventilation openings. BHA can tell me what they want, no membrane currently works that well that I can't overwhelm it. Things can change very quicly by the way. As already mentioned, Gore has the possibility to make membranes similar to eVENT. They already have them, just not in jackets currently.

I'm interested to know why you think it isn't windproof? I'm not discounting your experience, just curious. As most w/b membranes are completely windproof due to the fact that they have to be because of their waterproofness, I'm not sure how eVENT isn't completely windproof as well.

Air permeability, that which gives fleece and softshells a one-up on hardshells in terms of ventilation, is recorded through cfm measurements. The only air permeable w/b membrane that I know of is Schoeller's WB-400 which records 3 cfm (cubic ft per minute), helping it's breathability. This laminate, after it is applied, expands slightly resembling very fine foam. This 'foaming' action gives it it's air permeability. It is only used with 4-way stretch woven, or softshell, materials. All other membranes and laminates are completely windproof, or, in other words, record 0 cfm.

That's not exactly true. As already metnioned before, membranes like eVENT and windstopper have an open pore structure which allow a tiny amount of air to pass through. These amounts aren't certainly in the same league as true soft shell fabrics like WB-400, Powershield or stretch wovens which have CFM ratings from 3 up to 40 or 50. If I remember correctly, the CFM ratings for windstopper and eVENT lies between 0,3 and 1 CFM. Not much but enough to have an effect on breathability (it is the reason why eVENT performs that well) and why you can feel a slight breeze through the fabrics. Why do people say this about eVENT and not about windstopper ? It could be because windstopper garments in general seem to use heavier face fabrics and linings which have an effect too.

When buying a jacket that uses a proven and well-known key component such as eVENT, I'd just check on the workmanship -- making sure the stitching and seam sealing are done properly. I would also check to see that it has the features I want at the weight that I can live with. The fact that the jacket is made by a newish, smallish company is of very, very little concern to me. What's the hang up about company size or history when you are buying a jacket? It's not like you're investing in an entire IT system...

Goretex's breathability is significantly INFERIOR to eVENT in large part because of its extra PU coating. You keep mentioning about Goretex having something similar... but the reality is that for whatever reason, Goretex has chosen NOT to go that route even if it means much-improved breathability. I think I can deduce why.

Companies like Integral Designs are much smaller -- and they cater to a smaller crowd -- hikers who give UL and breathability a very high priority -- and they tend to understand the strength and limitations of eVENT and are willing to abide by them.

In contrast, Goretex is really for the mass market -- from "real hikers" all the way to the proverbial "soccer mom". Ultralight and ultra breathability are perhaps not as critical as a garment that will last -- particularly since many wear their jackets 'in town'. In the mass market, many buyers expect their so-called "extreme garments" to be just as convenient, comfortable, stylish and dependable as any of their other garments!

Often, if you want "cutting edge" performance -- it comes with limitations -- and are therefore offered mostly by smaller, more specialized companies. But if you -- like folks in the mass market -- value brand and dependability -- then stick with the mainstream. Just understand that they generally can't afford to take the same risks as smaller outfits. The Goretex laminate itself hasn't changed much in the last 20 or so years. Writing on and on about other goodies that Goretex might have in their product lab is just a waste of time -- if Goretex is not prepared to bring them to market.

Ben,just to be clear, I have no problem with Westcomb being a small company. On the contrary, all big companies started as small companies, often in their garage. And most of the time, they were created because of dissatisfaction with what was available at that time. I'm always on the look-out on what small companies like Tarptent, MLD, ULA, ... are bringing to the market. My main problem is that it's very hard to find any of the Westcomb products (being from Europe doesn't help here) and almost as difficult to find out why I should take a look at their products.

What branding concerns, all that interests me is performance, value for money. I don't care from which brand it comes. The fact that I still point to the capabilites of Gore to make something similar, has more to do with the fact that currently people seem to disregard Gore as something from the past. How often have I seen people write that they would never buy Gore again. If it's gore-tex, it's automatically inferior to eVENT. That's just silly.

Your wrote above, "The problem of Westcomb is that they're a still a small company."

So good that you clarified. I hope you see my point about Goretex as well. Indeed, I do associate them with "the past" -- meaning simply that their products are not cutting edge (with all the associated pros and cons) -- but that's really because of the much-wider market that they serve -- not because their scientists aren't smart enough or anything like that.

My needs are different and yes, I do disregard Goretex completely. But for every fringe guy like me, Goretex focuses on and serves 10,000 others. No need to get defensive... some of us are simply NOT part of the market that Goretex has chosen to serve.

It's the same reason why the gear you just mentioned above mainly come from smaller companies that serve a more specialized clientele.

If I remember correctly, the CFM ratings for windstopper and eVENT lies between 0,3 and 1 CFM.

I have no idea where you're getting this info, but every source I have says otherwise. These materials do not rely on air permeability for their breathability. Schoeller's WB-400 was designed for softshell stretch wovens and relies on it's small amount of air permeability for it's breathability. In fact, what makes this Schoeller material unique is that it has a slight bit of cfm something that no other membrane has been able to accomplish. The only thing close would be Polartec WindPro which it's cfm is around 20 or so.

I stand by what I said and have not doubts. I'm certain that eVENT is completely windproof recording 0 cfm. I will have to respectfully disagree.

By the way, WB-400 is similar to Windstopper in that both are a laminate. The difference, again, is that WB-400 has a slight bit of air permeability where Windstopper has none.

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Not much but enough to have an effect on breathability (it is the reason why eVENT performs that well) and why you can feel a slight breeze through the fabrics

The reason why eVENT performs well is not because of air permeability. eVENT does well because it doesn't have a solid PU membrane blocking the moisture from escaping. It has nothing to do with how much air can pass through. The pores are simply too small. A way of demonstrating this is to take a piece of eVENT or Windstopper and try to blow through it. I've done this countless times in demos and have never felt a thing. If eVENT allowed a slight breeze to pass I should be able to feel my breath which I don't.

eVENT works slowly through a pressure build-up inside the jacket forcing the moisture through the membrane. Goretex relys on the PU membrane to absorb moisture once it's built up, thus the diffusion principle when mated with a hydrophilic material.

I would also dispute that the 1st generation Gore was more breathable than eVENT. I would say they had similar characteristics, but I doubt one was better than the other in this regard. Again, why Gore has floundered with it's technology when they owned it for so long is beyond me. For many, it's hard to believe that they are relegated to take a back seat to another w/b brand. I think their intro of ProShell is an indication that they are floundering.

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Why do people say this about eVENT and not about windstopper ? It could be because windstopper garments in general seem to use heavier face fabrics and linings which have an effect too.

With all due respect, this statement doesn't really make much sense. If Windstopper has the same ePTFE characteristics as eVENT, they they should perform similarly. Windstopper is typically either laminated to stretch woven material in a softshell application or to 100 weight fleece. Both these materials are the worst at stopping wind. On the other hand, eVENT is typically laminated to tightly knit outer material that is much better at keeping wind at bay. In fact, most of the outer material that eVENT uses has a very high thread count per square inch. So by my deductions, the eVENT material would perform much better than Windstopper in stopping wind.

The problem of Westcomb is that they're a still a small company. I believe they only exist since 2004. The first time I heard about them was somewhere in 2006 and I have been trying to find out more since then. But there website has little information and the catalog/workbook I received has little more. They should pay more attention to what makes them different from the rest. Ok, they use eVENT but so do brands like Integral Designs and Loki and European brands like RAB are trying to get a piece of the NA market. So the fact that they use eVENT is not enough to make them different. I have a number of catalogs and workbooks from Arc'teryx and they are a master in showing there attention to detail. I think Westcomb should try to do the same.

You are exactly right about how available and how hard it is to find info on them and their products. This is something they are working on, but they are very limited with their time, personnel, resources, money, and a million other road blocks. Arcteryx had similar issues when they first began. However, Westcomb owns their own factories, something that Arcteryx never has (being made in China now). In fact, Westcomb built many of the Arcteryx jackets back when they were made in Canada. As you inspect both Westcomb and Arcteryx jackets, you will see similarities. We were sued twice by Arcteryx, and won both times. I guess they're a little scared<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. We aren't going away and you will soon see some very compelling reasons why we should be taken seriously.

The outdoor industry is all about companies like Westcomb that bring new innovation and ideas to market. This is a small percentage of goods, but most of the ideas from other companies come from small startup ventures. I'm honored to be a part of it and look forward to the future. I'm not looking to make millions of dollars, but rather am passionate about new innovation and workmanship. I like owning something that I can be proud of. They are taking huge risks and sacrificing a lot to bring their ideas and products to market. This is what most of us crave as consumers in this industry.

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One of the things I regret is that the latest jackets from Westcomb have no specific ventilation openings. BHA can tell me what they want, no membrane currently works that well that I can't overwhelm it.

The Mirage and iMirage both have pit zips. We have a couple of other jackets that also have pit zips. The use of eVENT does allow us to not include them in our lightweight shells, but all of our more 'heavy duty' shells do incorporate pit zips.

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Things can change very quicly by the way. As already mentioned, Gore has the possibility to make membranes similar to eVENT. They already have them, just not in jackets currently.

Fine. I'm all for innovation. If they bring out something better than eVENT then I'll be all over it. Right now, however, eVENT is putting a big hurt on Gore, like it or not.

I have no idea where you're getting this info, but every source I have says otherwise. These materials do not rely on air permeability for their breathability. Schoeller's WB-400 was designed for softshell stretch wovens and relies on it's small amount of air permeability for it's breathability. In fact, what makes this Schoeller material unique is that it has a slight bit of cfm something that no other membrane has been able to accomplish. The only thing close would be Polartec WindPro which it's cfm is around 20 or so. I stand by what I said and have not doubts. I'm certain that eVENT is completely windproof recording 0 cfm. I will have to respectfully disagree.

And I'm afraid I have to disagree with you I have the air-permeability numbers right in front of me.and take a look at: http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/news/article/mps/UAN/3921/V/2/SP/I'm not saying air permeability is really big; just in the range of 0,25 to 0,4 CFM. Not much but noticable.Other air permeability figures (offical figures from Polartec):powershield 6 to 10powershield O2 40windpro 60

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IBy the way, WB-400 is similar to Windstopper in that both are a laminate. The difference, again, is that WB-400 has a slight bit of air permeability where Windstopper has none.

For windstopper, go to the windstopper website where you will see that Gore claims an air permeability of no more 5L/mē.s (or equivalent in imperial units) (watch the movie)

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The reason why eVENT performs well is not because of air permeability. eVENT does well because it doesn't have a solid PU membrane blocking the moisture from escaping. It has nothing to do with how much air can pass through. The pores are simply too small. A way of demonstrating this is to take a piece of eVENT or Windstopper and try to blow through it. I've done this countless times in demos and have never felt a thing. If eVENT allowed a slight breeze to pass I should be able to feel my breath which I don't.

see the test as performed in the Outdoorsmagic link.The fact that eVENT has no solid PU-layer allows it to use the porous structure of the PTFE layer to its full potential. The slight air permeability helps. When I put my sleeping bag in my dry bag with eVENT bottom, I can definitely feel the air being pushed through the eVENT layer, not the seams.

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I would also dispute that the 1st generation Gore was more breathable than eVENT. I would say they had similar characteristics, but I doubt one was better than the other in this regard.

First generation Gore-tex used a bare PTFE layer. eVENT uses the PTFE layer but coated with a tiny layer of a fluorocarbon based acrylate or methacrylate. This makes the pores a tiny bit smaller and thus also the breathabilty. Ever seen the famous Gibson graph in which a number of membranes and coatings were compared to PTFE? In fact, minimising the thickness of the coating layer seemed to be one of the challenges in creating the eVENT membrane. Putting the coating inside was not the problem, just chemistry and using the right solvent (IPA), finding a stable chemical emulsion and a polymerisation process which didn't clog the pores was the real challenge. Of course, now they use CO2 as a solvent.

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If Windstopper has the same ePTFE characteristics as eVENT, they they should perform similarly.

And I know people who have used both who say they do have similar characteristics. But you can actually really compare both if all factors except the membranes are kept constant.

Believe me, I really hope they can make it. I really do. It perhaps sounds as if I'm all into Gore but I'm certainly not. Recently I asked some very critical questions to Gore, over and over again when their answers were too vague and in the end I still hadn't got my answer but they were sounding nervous and irritated. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If you think eVENT is the top, do a search on "ion masking" and "P2i". These guys are claiming waterproof membranes and coatings have had their best time and will be outdated in a very short time. Very interesting stuff.

Your talking about 'feeling' wind through the membrane, not just a few bubbles coming through after a significant amount of pressure is applied. Even at 1 cfm (which is way more than eVENT would ever allow) you would have to really concentrate to feel this amount of air.

Try blowing through Polertec Powershield. You do feel your breath (at least I do). This is at 6 cfm. Now try blowing through eVENT or Windstopper. No breath is felt. Hmmm.... Air permeability is not in the equation for eVENT. I would acknowledge that a very tiny bit of air is able to help dry out the membrane, but no way is there wind or air coming through that can be felt. Something is playing with your mind.

I've read all the articles you've read and checked out all of the online resources available. I've also got some inside data from Westcomb where they've gotten it from eVENT. Their livelyhoods depend upon the accuracy of this data. They also do inhouse tests on the fabric before using it. They have told me, without question, that eVENT is completely windproof.

I stand corrected on WindPro. It was a total guess, but my point was that materials such as Polartec's WindPro are designed to allow air to pass through it to allow it's air permeable nature to help keep the person comfortable in certain situations. WB-400 is designed to be far more windproof, but allow for a tiny bit of air permeability. eVENT and Windstopper are absolutely windproof.

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For windstopper, go to the windstopper website where you will see that Gore claims an air permeability of no more 5L/mē.s (or equivalent in imperial units) (watch the movie)

They also claimed that Windstopper is 'absolutely windproof'. After watching the video, it showed Windstopper settle at around 2.1 l/mē (compared to 740 l/mē, or 26.1 cfm, for standard fleece). This converts to 0.07 cfm. That, in my mind, means that wind can in no way be felt through the membrane. I would dare say that this would be the case for eVENT as well in that the two membranes are so similar. Even if it was 5 l/mē, this would convert to only 0.17 cfm.

If you think eVENT is the top, do a search on "ion masking" and "P2i". These guys are claiming waterproof membranes and coatings have had their best time and will be outdated in a very short time. Very interesting stuff.

This stuff looks pretty cool! I think it should be used as the ultimate DWR, but I don't know if it will replace laminates. I would have to see if it is durably waterproof first before I was totally convinced.

The fact that it is only nanometers thin and encapsulates the fibers with a chemical bond makes it highly desirable.

Schoeller's Nanosphere is similar in that it uses nano particles to chemically bond to the surface of the material in an encapulation process. It doesn't wash away and has been shown to be one of the best DWRs on the market. In my demonstrations, I pour juice, pop, or whatever I have on me to show it's water resistance and stain resistance.

Hopefully P2i will be at the Outdoor Retail Show so I can take a looksee.

Ben,you wrote:[So good that you clarified. I hope you see my point about Goretex as well. Indeed, I do associate them with "the past" -- meaning simply that their products are not cutting edge (with all the associated pros and cons)

I actually do agree with you: currently Gore-tex seems to have been fallen behind. But I purposely use the term "currently" because things can change, sometimes very fast. Perhaps I haven't explained myself very well. What I mean when I say that people disregard Gore completely, is the fact that a lot of people had already an opinion on and were disregarding gore-tex pro shell when nobody exactly knew what was it all about, nobody knew what had changed and nobody had had a chance to test the stuff. It was a gore-tex product so it was automatically inferior. That, I think, is silly. For me everything is an option untill someone has prooven it shouldn't be.

Actually, I do hope that Gore comes with something similar like eVENT for the simple reason that up to now, I haven't seen a single eVENT jacket which gives me that very exciting feeling. The cut is wrong, the details are wrong, the lay-out is wrong, construction is crap and when I find a jacket that could be it (like the Westcomb Specter), it has not ventilation openings. And I think you know very well what Mark Verber said about the comparison between his eVENT shell and his Peak jacket. Otoh, some gore-tex based jackets seem to have almost everything I prefer, except that they are using gore-tex. Of course, if someone just would make the perfect eVENT shell, that would be a lot easier. Is someone hearing me? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My own experience is that under some circumstances, a slight breeze can be felt through the membrane. That's not a guess, that's a fact. I'm not saying it's enough to get chilly, I'm just saying that tiny amount is enough to enhance breathabilty a bit. and every bit counts for me.

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I've read all the articles you've read and checked out all of the online resources available.

This stuff looks pretty cool! I think it should be used as the ultimate DWR, but I don't know if it will replace laminates. I would have to see if it is durably waterproof first before I was totally convinced.

They're going to use it in footwear from fall 2008. They claim to have tested these shoes with all the regular tests used for waterproof footwear (flex tests, ...) and no leaks were observed. Very intruiging stuff.

It was a gore-tex product so it was automatically inferior. That, I think, is silly. For me everything is an option untill someone has prooven it shouldn't be.

And I think you know very well what Mark Verber said about the comparison between his eVENT shell and his Peak jacket.

Otoh, some gore-tex based jackets seem to have almost everything I prefer, except that they are using gore-tex. Of course, if someone just would make the perfect eVENT shell, that would be a lot easier. Is someone hearing me? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Agree. Who knows what good things are lurking inside Gore labs. But as I said, big companies tend to move much slower. I bet there are tons of good things lurking in GM labs as well -- but we all know how conservative that behemoth is...

Mark Verber spoke very highly of the Peak jacket. All zipped up, his eVENT jacket was still the more breathabe of the two -- but with the Peak's many venting options, he thought the Peak was the more comfy of the two -- everything considered. I have a Peak jacket myself, and I really, really like it!

Looking ONLY at what's actually available on the market, and knowing that current Goretex stuff is very much inferior compared to either eVENT or Peak -- this is why I completely disregard Goretex. Obviously, in the battle for our wallets, every genuinely new product announcement opens up a totally new battle front! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jason why don't you bridge the gap for us here and have the company advertise on a banner here at our forum. Surely there would be a group buy interest from some here; and that would infuse cash into the small company for a minor outlay for advertising here. WE are their market after all.....ok, us and those 'other folk' over at BPL <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Your right. What I meant to say is that I've read all of the articles you presented in your post prior to this discussion, not to imply that I've read EVERY article you've read on the subject (my mistake). Also I should clarify that I've searched the internet tirelessly, but it is really impossible to say that I've checked out EVERY source available on the net. Again, my mistake.

I have spent more time than I wish to admit finding out the real story about w/b technology. I've thought about it probably way to much. I want to make sure that I'm not being influenced by marketing hype and heresay, which includes the companies I represent. My goal is when I recommend a product, I know as much of the truth as I can about it. This is a tall order when it comes to technical gear, especially when representing 7 companies! I pay attention to different folk's experiences through forums and reviews, as well as study, both in print and on the internet, published professional reviews that are non-biased. It's easy to see bias for me and I tend to disregard this info. Just the facts, please. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I've enjoyed our conversation and have learned much about this topic. I have new questions that I plan to ask the experts at the OR Show. Eventually I hope to be considered a person that can be relied upon as someone who knows what the @#$% he is talking about. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Jason why don't you bridge the gap for us here and have the company advertise on a banner here at our forum. Surely there would be a group buy interest from some here; and that would infuse cash into the small company for a minor outlay for advertising here. WE are their market after all.....ok, us and those 'other folk' over at BPL <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I will recommend this to Westcomb in our next meeting in a couple of weeks. Great suggestion! I would love to hear your opinions on these jackets. I agree, we (I feel like your are all family <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) are Westcomb's primary market.

I'm going to start a new thread about the 'perfect' jacket so as not to hijack this one.

I have spent more time than I wish to admit finding out the real story about w/b technology. I've thought about it probably way to much. I want to make sure that I'm not being influenced by marketing hype and heresay, which includes the companies I represent. My goal is when I recommend a product, I know as much of the truth as I can about it. This is a tall order when it comes to technical gear, especially when representing 7 companies! I pay attention to different folk's experiences through forums and reviews, as well as study, both in print and on the internet, published professional reviews that are non-biased. It's easy to see bias for me and I tend to disregard this info. Just the facts, please. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I think at this point, we're not that different from eachother. Every company, big or small, is selling itself to the public and does this (or has to do this) with very bold (and often entirely) misleading claims. So I do the same thing as you: I begin to search as a madman to find out as much as possible and to find out if those claims make any sense. Sometimes they do, often they don't.

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I've enjoyed our conversation and have learned much about this topic. I have new questions that I plan to ask the experts at the OR Show. Eventually I hope to be considered a person that can be relied upon as someone who knows what the @#$% he is talking about. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I too have learned interesting things. And please, feel free to share what you've learned at the OR show because there is always more to learn.Based on the input you've given here ove the years, I think most people already dare to relie on what you say. But it raises the stakes: getting there is the easy part, staying there is much more difficult <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

PS: not to hijack this thread but if you are at OR, try to ask the guys from MSR how the pressure regulator in the Reactor stove works. I can see it work in limiting too high pressure but not in enhancing performance in freezing temperatures (when pressure inside the gastank is low). I've tested another stove with a regulator and its effect was zero. Another one of those bold claims <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, we consider you part of our greater family here too Jason <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Glad to have you stirring the fire here with us. Maybe you can start a thread titled,"Questions for jason to ask the Reps' at the OR show" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Then take a mini recorder to get the answers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />