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Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

We have passed the point that any politician who attempts to limit immigration will likely lose. We have lost our ability to limit it. With it we lose our ability to make progress against poverty.

It remains unclear how you determine “immigration causes us to lose our ability to make progress against poverty.” If true, there must surely be a source somewhere that develops this concept and uses facts to support the supposition.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by opinterph

It remains unclear how you determine “immigration causes us to lose our ability to make progress against poverty.” If true, there must surely be a source somewhere that develops this concept and uses facts to support the supposition.

You never addressed my point about how for wages to ever go up even in the crappiest, hardest jobs, if we somehow put up a concrete wall and stopped 100.0% of all immigration somehow, it would only ever happen through collective bargaining and the formation of unions. Something I know you have loudly denounced in previous discussions. I'm curious how you think these jobs will simply rise to dignified wages on their own if you remove immigrants, something we have absolutely no reason to believe will happen.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by xbuzzerx

You never addressed my point about how for wages to ever go up even in the crappiest, hardest jobs, if we somehow put up a concrete wall and stopped 100.0% of all immigration somehow, it would only ever happen through collective bargaining and the formation of unions. Something I know you have loudly denounced in previous discussions. I'm curious how you think these jobs will simply rise to dignified wages on their own if you remove immigrants, something we have absolutely no reason to believe will happen.

No, in economics, it is called the law of supply and demand. When the supply of available labor is low, employers will be forced to pay more to get the job done. They will eventually be required to recruit from the huge number of people who have given up on getting jobs.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by Benvolio

No, in economics, it is called the law of supply and demand. When the supply of available labor is low, employers will be forced to pay more to get the job done. They will eventually be required to recruit from the huge number of people who have given up on getting jobs.

And this is bunk because real wages have fallen for 30 years for about 70% of the workforce (yes including jobs way too specialized for "illegal immigrants" to be doing for minimum wage). It hasn't even kept up with inflation and cost of living increases, let alone risen because immigrants are not competing for most of these jobs.

Or in short, and Opin was oh so nicely pointing this out to you, you're stating a belief over and over again for which there is utterly no proof in the real world.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by xbuzzerx

And this is bunk because real wages have fallen for 30 years for about 70% of the workforce (yes including jobs way too specialized for "illegal immigrants" to be doing for minimum wage). It hasn't even kept up with inflation and cost of living increases, let alone risen because immigrants are not competing for most of these jobs.

Or in short, and Opin was oh so nicely pointing this out to you, you're stating a belief over and over again for which there is utterly no proof in the real world.

Also in your world did trickle down work?

The vast oversupply of cheap labor at the bottom creates competition for the next level, then the next level etc. And the legal immigrants are not all low income worker. Some are educated and function at high levels and have the benefit of affirmative action and anti discrimination. Meanwhile, America is confronted with increased foreign competition, while technology enables employers to escape some of the US burdens placed on employers.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by Benvolio

The vast oversupply of cheap labor at the bottom creates competition for the next level, then the next level etc. And the legal immigrants are not all low income worker. Some are educated and function at high levels and have the benefit of affirmative action and anti discrimination. Meanwhile, America is confronted with increased foreign competition, while technology enables employers to escape some of the US burdens placed on employers.

No it doesn't.

It doesn't matter how many people are available to pick fruit. That doesn't make any more people qualified for nursing or physical therapy jobs tomorrow. And those wages have fallen too in real terms.

The onrush of technology largely explains the gradual development of a "two-tier labor market" in which those at the bottom lack the education and the professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more, fail to get comparable pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits. Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households. Since 1996, dividends and capital gains have grown faster than wages or any other category of after-tax income.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Not all immigrants pick fruit. They do many kinds of work, specially construction. When was the last time you rode in a taxi not driven by an immigrant? If an American con no longer make a living driving a taxi, he competes for a higher paying job. Not nursing, perhaps but truck driving, etc.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by Benvolio

Not all immigrants pick fruit. They do many kinds of work, specially construction. When was the last time you rode in a taxi not driven by an immigrant? If an American con no longer make a living driving a taxi, he competes for a higher paying job. Not nursing, perhaps but truck driving, etc.

So Benvolio tell me, who has a vested interest in keeping wages low?

Could it be the party dedicated to trickle down economics and unionbusting? Or am I just thinking way too literally?

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by Benvolio

Not all immigrants pick fruit

Agreed. They pick vegetables - like tomatoes. Wait, are tomatoes vegetables? I think they are a fruit in the berry family. The lovely and talented consort of the late Sir Ronald of Reagan said that ketchup was a vegetable... But how can a vegetable product be made from a fruit?

Meanwhile, back to the topic. I met an immigrant who was an M.D. His specialty was ear, nose and throat. He took this position because U.S. doctors want to be eye specialists only. That sounds familiar: immigrants taking jobs that Americans won't do. Whaddaya know!

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

I'm glad to see that you're finally recognizing that the wild Eyed Liberal Republican known as Dwight D. Eisenhower is no longer our Nation's President!

Instead we have a wild-eyed liberal Democrat doing Eisenhower redux.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by xbuzzerx

Yup.

At the height of the Irish/Italian immigration period, there were more foreign-born people in the U.S. as a percentage of the population than today. There is no 'invasion.' Anymore than there's an 'invasion' of the UK by Muslims or Asians or any of the rest of this alarmist, nativist, reactionary rhetoric that's literally been around for millenia.

In college I had a professor put a transparency up on the screen as we came in. It was a quote talking about how "we're being invaded by hordes of immigrants who have totally different language and customs, do not adopt ours, harm our civilization and are nothing at all like the previous immigrants who worked hard and contributed." The professor asked everyone to guess what the quote was talking about, and everyone, naturally, thought it was about hispanic immigration.

She revealed the rest of the transparency and it was a Roman Emperor talking about Britons.

None of this shit is anything new.

The same complaint was raised in the Roman Senate after Julius Caesar conquered Gaul.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by Benvolio

They do get welfare, including food stamps, health service at emergency rooms etc. That and the vote is what Obama's "reform" is all about. Rush illegals to citizenship and allow/encourage more to come.

I took a guy to the human services office the other day to get food stamps. Guess what he had to provide?

Sorry, you missed it: they required proof of citizenship.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

I am not allowed to speak of the damage to the culture which made us a great nation.

THe culture which made us a great nation was one where welcoming newcomers was an integral part of the understanding of liberty.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

First of all, to quote the HP as a source for an open discussion of immigration reform is like quoting the Pope for an open discussion on abortion.

I cannot stand Ann Coulter. That being said, she is correct on this issue. Marco Rubio is being a Cuban first and then an American second.

My thought is this. Before pushing for reform, why not trying enforcing the laws already on the books and see how that works. The immigration laws haven't been vigorously enforced for any lengthy period of time...ever. Immigration has become a political football. Republican administrations look the other way because immigrates are cheap labor for the big agribusinesses and hotel chains. These guys use the catch 22 "day labor" which allows them to submit a 1099, which let's be clear is vague at best. Democratic administrations look the other way because immigrates are quickly assimilated into the nanny culture where they queue up for taxpayer financed freebies. Democrats are the party of giveaways. Therefore, these people are more than likely to vote for Democratic candidates even though they technically are not capable of doing that legally in this country. (see last year's election)

I agree that immigration needs to be reformed radically. Most of today's problems come from Hart-Cellar and all the amendments to it through the years.

No other country in the world is as lax as is the U.S. with immigration policy, no one.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Rome lost its republican form of government at that point and never recovered it.

That was because of Roman versions of George W. Bush leading the empire.. not because of immigration.

Originally Posted by Durango95

First of all, to quote the HP as a source for an open discussion of immigration reform is like quoting the Pope for an open discussion on abortion.

I cannot stand Ann Coulter. That being said, she is correct on this issue. Marco Rubio is being a Cuban first and then an American second.

My thought is this. Before pushing for reform, why not trying enforcing the laws already on the books and see how that works. The immigration laws haven't been vigorously enforced for any lengthy period of time...ever. Immigration has become a political football. Republican administrations look the other way because immigrates are cheap labor for the big agribusinesses and hotel chains. These guys use the catch 22 "day labor" which allows them to submit a 1099, which let's be clear is vague at best. Democratic administrations look the other way because immigrates are quickly assimilated into the nanny culture where they queue up for taxpayer financed freebies. Democrats are the party of giveaways. Therefore, these people are more than likely to vote for Democratic candidates even though they technically are not capable of doing that legally in this country. (see last year's election)

I agree that immigration needs to be reformed radically. Most of today's problems come from Hart-Cellar and all the amendments to it through the years.

No other country in the world is as lax as is the U.S. with immigration policy, no one.

I'm totally with you on "enforcing the existing laws would be more than enough to seriously cut down on 'the problem'." I'm not with you on the part where you parrot Bill O'Reilly talking about how the reason people vote Democrat is all the giveaway freebies. Aside from a public college level education (which my parents have paid California taxes since before I was born) I have no real idea what giveaway you think Democrats en masse get for their vote, and I find the assertion both as disingenuous and offensive as me saying Republicans only vote Republican because they're going to get 39 virgins at the gates of Heaven from God when they die, even if they vote their own job overseas in the meanwhile.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

It's been a sad desperate mudslinging attempt of the neocons for a while now, to try and paint the Democrats as some weird minority-rimming party that can only win on the backs of poor welfare queens. When in reality a solid chunk of the middle class votes Democrat, and MOST of college-educated young people as well.

In my school, I know of three Republicans. Nuff said.

That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
- Gene Wolfe

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Oops. Guess who isn't on ignore anymore

But yeah, haters gonna hate. Clearly the propaganda machine is so strong and they're so used to warping reality to fit their claims, that now they see that warping everywhere. Statistics don't matter, numbers don't matter, polls don't matter. Only God's word I guess...

That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
- Gene Wolfe

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

I have a sister that is a trauma nurse in the ER of a very large medical Center in a border state with a very high Hispanic population. She says at the end of the week when compiling reports for Medicaid, the same "child" with the same medicaid number will have had hundreds of procedures. This is not just one child by the way but hundreds of the same "children". The hospital has tried repeatedly to crack down on this but both the hospital administrators and the state boards were unwilling to do anything of use because they don't want to be seen as harming children.

I did not say the giveaways were legally obtained. What can you expect though from a group of people that are already breaking the law. I've heard the arguments that immigration law is somehow different. It is not. If someone will break one "kind" of law they will have little restraint to break another "kind" of law.

I take exception to the Bill O'Reilly comment. That man is a self serving miscreant. I am not a Republican. You assume a little too much.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

You got what you said directly out of the mouth of Bill O'Reilly, care to actually back it up?

Apparently you watch Bill O'Reilly far more than do I. I was unaware of his comments. Since I despise the man and do not watch him at all.

I find it so interesting that Fox is watched so much by people on this forum. The only thing on FNC I'll actually plan to watch is On the Record from time to time and Stossel when he has one of his specials.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by Durango95

Apparently you watch Bill O'Reilly far more than do I. I was unaware of his comments. Since I despise the man and do not watch him at all.

I find it so interesting that Fox is watched so much by people on this forum. The only thing on FNC I'll actually plan to watch is On the Record from time to time and Stossel when he has one of his specials.

It's interesting that you despise someone who mirrors your views almost word for word. Did you also totally despise George W. Bush while voting for him twice?

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

rubio has no intention of ever following through with immigration reform. he's grandstanding now hoping to build a faux resume on the subject for his run in 2016. he has (and other republicans) so many caveats that he knows they will never be met. he's a sorry excuse for a human being.

Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being
governed by those who are dumber.
~Plato, ancient Greek Philosopher

The Catholic Online article doesn’t provide much in the way of information, but does draw attention to the Supplemental Poverty Measure (SPM) recently introduced by the US Census Bureau and which seems potentially useful in developing future policy. The SPM is more complicated, but is not the official measure of poverty and currently only includes calculated (or estimated) data from 2009 to 2011. This alternative method is based more on cash flow than income, does not take assets into account, and redefines “family.” Anyone interested should visit the link below for more information.

The thing that always fascinates me is that an American citizen would defend and uphold those that flagrantly break our laws. I am assuming you are an American citizen. If you aren't then that changes everything.

You are simply espousing the views which will benefit you and those of your ilk. You are probably breaking the law as we speak.

As to the other point, to not be a registered Democrat you seem to spew forth their talking points with invariable regularity.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

The thing that always fascinates me is that an American citizen would defend and uphold those that flagrantly break our laws. I am assuming you are an American citizen. If you aren't then that changes everything.

You are simply espousing the views which will benefit you and those of your ilk. You are probably breaking the law as we speak.

As to the other point, to not be a registered Democrat you seem to spew forth their talking points with invariable regularity.

Nobody here has said abusing medicare or whatever else is a good thing. The only difference is that yourself and every virulently anti-immigration person argues from the point of view that immigrants come in, sit down, do nothing and suck out services. Immigrants do the hardest work in this country, frequently for the longest hours with the poorest pay and typically nonexistent benefits. And there are people, everywhere from the industries and business owners employing that labor, to the people who shop at Wal*Mart or eat cheap food, who reap a financial benefit from that.

In any other discussion the same virulently anti-immigration crowd are the first to talk about how horrible unions are and how terrible and incompetent well-paid, well compensated American workers are in unionized work and yet unions would be springing up all over the country if Americans somehow were pushed into filling all of these jobs tomorrow.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Irish and Italians particularly were infamous for remitting money back to their families at home. It failed to destroy our economy.

I find it interesting you care so much what really poor people are doing with their money and not what billionaires and multinational conglomerates are doing with Cayman Island billing centers and Swiss bank accounts.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

I would hate to live in the world of some of those that post on this forum. In that fantasy world there is either their way or nihilism, which of course everyone correctly identifies as elitism.

Nowhere in this forum have I stated I am anti-immigration. I will state that I am against people breaking the laws of our country for any reason. It is unfortunate that these people have failed to make a success of their native country. I cannot see where that is any fault of any citizen of the U.S. Well maybe the U.S. citizens that are drug addicts are to blame for some of it.

I keep hearing about tearing families apart and denying people employment. The facts are the families would be intact if the respective father or mother or other family member did not CHOOSE to leave. As to the other point, perhaps if they stayed in their own country and worked to build it in some constructive way they would have employment.

No one is against immigration. Most Americans are against people breaking our laws and coming here and then demanding we change our laws to suit them specifically. Most Americans are against another foreign country, even a neighbor, trying to manipulate our laws to soften our sovereignty.

I say enforce the laws already on the books vigorously. That should lessen the problem significantly. The funds could be diverted from social programs which should have less strain if these people were not here or were complying with the laws fully.

Another viable solution would be to simply absorb Mexico as a protectorate. That way U.S. sovereignty would remain in tact. Mexico would have to give up its sovereignty. They shouldn't have a problem with that because that is what they have wanted from us for years.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by Durango95

I say enforce the laws already on the books vigorously. That should lessen the problem significantly. The funds could be diverted from social programs which should have less strain if these people were not here or were complying with the laws fully.

The US Customs and Border Protection's budget in 2012 was $11.7 billion.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by Benvolio

We have passed the point that any politician who attempts to limit immigration will likely lose. We have lost our ability to limit it.

It seems to me that if the citizens choose to elect representatives that do no limit immigration, the absence of limitation becomes a demonstration of the will of the citizens. The fact that a minority of citizens may disagree with that course of action is noteworthy, but in our representative form of government elected representatives are expected to fulfill the will of the people. In any case, we are debating a hypothetical, because the law currently limits immigration.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

I would hate to live in the world of some of those that post on this forum. In that fantasy world there is either their way or nihilism, which of course everyone correctly identifies as elitism.

Nowhere in this forum have I stated I am anti-immigration. I will state that I am against people breaking the laws of our country for any reason. It is unfortunate that these people have failed to make a success of their native country. I cannot see where that is any fault of any citizen of the U.S. Well maybe the U.S. citizens that are drug addicts are to blame for some of it.

I keep hearing about tearing families apart and denying people employment. The facts are the families would be intact if the respective father or mother or other family member did not CHOOSE to leave. As to the other point, perhaps if they stayed in their own country and worked to build it in some constructive way they would have employment.

No one is against immigration. Most Americans are against people breaking our laws and coming here and then demanding we change our laws to suit them specifically. Most Americans are against another foreign country, even a neighbor, trying to manipulate our laws to soften our sovereignty.

I say enforce the laws already on the books vigorously. That should lessen the problem significantly. The funds could be diverted from social programs which should have less strain if these people were not here or were complying with the laws fully.

Another viable solution would be to simply absorb Mexico as a protectorate. That way U.S. sovereignty would remain in tact. Mexico would have to give up its sovereignty. They shouldn't have a problem with that because that is what they have wanted from us for years.

This post is full of completely unfounded assertions, like that someone is proposing rewriting laws to 'support' illegal immigration or the equally unsupported assertion you and others have made that illegals come here and suck off social services without contributing.

It seems to me that if the citizens choose to elect representatives that do no limit immigration, the absence of limitation becomes a demonstration of the will of the citizens. The fact that a minority of citizens may disagree with that course of action is noteworthy, but in our representative form of government elected representatives are expected to fulfill the will of the people. In any case, we are debating a hypothetical, because the law currently limits immigration.

In Benvolio World (aka Bizzaro World) ALL the illegal immigrants voter fraud their way into making legislation against the poor Americans with the help of the white-aborting, US-hating Party of Democratic Doom and Despair.

This is the dramatized version...

That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
- Gene Wolfe

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by Rolyo85

In Benvolio World (aka Bizzaro World) ALL the illegal immigrants voter fraud their way into making legislation against the poor Americans with the help of the white-aborting, US-hating Party of Democratic Doom and Despair.

This is the dramatized version...

They also can walk into every office for every form of welfare services and get them without any documentation of any kind.

Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

Originally Posted by Rolyo85

In Benvolio World (aka Bizzaro World) ALL the illegal immigrants voter fraud their way into making legislation against the poor Americans with the help of the white-aborting, US-hating Party of Democratic Doom and Despair.

This is the dramatized version...

I don't see where Benvolio has mentioned “voter fraud” in this thread.