I suspect that the flavour you're describing is most likely to come from No. 3 invert sugar.

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Is this D-90 from Candi Syrups Inc close to this? No. 3 invert sugar is 80L and I'm assuming that product is invert sugar.

edit: from there site

Is Simplicity just clear inverted sugar?​

No. Unlike competing neutral syrup products, (that are in fact just clear invert sugar), Simplicity is a true blonde syrup that undergoes multiple stages to develop its unique flavor. It is superior in both flavor and fermentability to competing products.

So what are they saying? That it's a special invert sugar? Is this more of a marketing statement? I do like their products but am just curios as to what it is.

Interestingly I've been told that this kind of character can be mistaken for diacetyl by beer judges, but I've never entered my barlywine into a comp so I can't speak from personal experience on that.

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It happens all the time. Wee Heavies and Barleywines seem to be the beers that get incorrectly marked off for diacetyl. I think some of it comes from inexperienced judges that don't have a good sense of what diacetyl tastes like and mistake it for kettle caramelization. The remaining incorrect calls seem to be the judges that don't look at the beer as a whole and just try to pick up faults and score down for it, almost predisposing themselves to sensing off flavors.

Schedule:
154F for 90 mins (decided to knock down the time to a 90 min boil if I'm just boiling off first runnings)

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With that grain bill you won't even notice the effects of boiling down the first runnings. The subtle character that you pick up from this technique will be clobbered by 2 lbs of caramel malt, 1 lb of special B, and 1 lb of molassess. I generally do this with beers that are 100% base malt (maris otter, golden promise, etc), or 95% basemalt/5% crystal. With a large percentage of powerful specialty malts it's a waste of time and fuel IMO.

With that grain bill you won't even notice the effects of boiling down the first runnings. The subtle character that you pick up from this technique will be clobbered by 2 lbs of caramel malt, 1 lb of special B, and 1 lb of molassess. I generally do this with beers that are 100% base malt (maris otter, golden promise, etc), or 95% basemalt/5% crystal. With a large percentage of powerful specialty malts it's a waste of time and fuel IMO.

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Will I lose out on that old ale character by supplementing the carmelization of the first runnings with specialty malts?

Will I lose out on that old ale character by supplementing the carmelization of the first runnings with specialty malts?

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I have a question. When we use sugar adjuncts like treacle, molasses, invert sugar, etc. how traditional is this? Or even a lot of specialty malts. Are we taking short cuts to try and reproduce in part what aging does? It's seems that old ales are just normal beers stored and then server or blended with new beers. But not a new grist separate from stock ales, milds, etc.

So should I instead focus on the longer boil times? I would like more of a pronounce malt flavor. Additionally, I'd also like some of that raisin finish popular in many Old ales.

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I agree w/HB42 and I'd like to add in my perspective. It's just an opinion so I'll welcome comments.

The only time that I got what I called raisin flavors I took some first runnings and boiled them down to less than a quarter of the volume. It might of been closed to an eight. It was a long process and the boil was reduced to a thick dark syrup. I boiled down to where you can see that liquid changes state. I believe that this is Caramelization and not just milliard reactions.

I've also taken first runnings and just boiled them down to about a quarter. This is when I got something that could be mistaken for butter flavors. I do think that this goes more towards replicating a long strong boil. I've gone from stove top to a cheap gas burner to a Blichmann w/a good pot. With my current set up I can get a boil like I never could before. Which seems to be close what I've seen to production Breweries. So if you're on a stove top or a cheap propane burned it might be necessary/helpful to do some aggressive boiling of the first runnings to replicate this type of a strong boil.

Basically I think that one can achieve these caramel/toffee flavors with a simple malt bill and one of the above methods and or the use of inverted sugars (I think that point got lost). It's just based on your perception of these flavors and your system.

Alright so I think I'm going to stick with my recipe with just a 90 min boil. I'll try boiling the first runnings and using a simpler grain bill for my English Barley Wine I plan on brewing in a few months. The amount of advice and knowledge in this thread has been extremely helpful (especially Homebrew42's advice).

I have a question. When we use sugar adjuncts like treacle, molasses, invert sugar, etc. how traditional is this? Or even a lot of specialty malts. Are we taking short cuts to try and reproduce in part what aging does? It's seems that old ales are just normal beers stored and then server or blended with new beers. But not a new grist separate from stock ales, milds, etc.

Historians? I know that there are various thoughts.

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Depends which period you're talking about. 1800 to 1890, Mild and Stock Ales had the same grist. Old Ales were just Stock Ales. The only difference between a Mild and a Stock Ale was the level of hopping. After 1880 the use of invert sugar was very common. Depending on the beer, either No. 2 or No. 3 invert. Often caramel for colour, too. In the 20th century, the grists of Stock and Mild Ales grew apart at larger breweries. But you wouldn't find much in the way of special malts other than crystal and maybe a touch of chocolate or black malt for colour. Almost no-one would have brewed an Old Ale all malt after 1880.

Boiling down the first runnings to a syrup isn't a technique I've ever come across in my collection of over 15,000 photographs of old brewing records.

I know this thread has been dead for half a year. However, I figured I'd mention how the old ale came out.

In my opinion, the beer came out GREAT. Brewed in Late August, Tapped in December, Kicked at the end of January. The Mollasses really added a nice sweet finish to the beer, and the Special B provided a tiny bit of raisny character that complimented the forward malty/sweet character of the beer. Below is my recipe for anyone interested in trying it out.

If I had to change anything, it'd be more munich. Maybe split MO/Munich as the base. The competing sweetness from c60/Special B/Molasses downplay the malt flavor. Otherwise, I loved it. If anyone else takes a crack at it, let me know how it comes out.

Both recipes were written in collaboration with the brewers in an attempt to replicate the beers in a home brew situation.No details of yeast except thet it was harvested from Guinness bottles which was bottle conditioned in those days and was the best yeasr available.

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One point worth noting: Hardy Ale was fermented very hot, over 80 F. The lager malt is correct and if I remember correctly it was No. 2 invert sugar.