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I'm good with delusion for the most part. I recognize that most of what I do in life is simply to avoid being bored and essentially acts as a form of distraction and entertainment to keep me thinking about death dying and all the problems in the world. I'm probably better that way. Aikiweb is a big part of that too.

Well maybe I'm not using the right word...
I meant to describe realizations which fundementally (and "positively," whatever that might mean) change how we view the world around us.

Well, "fundamentally change" sure sounds like it means a permanent and irreversible change...but I don't know that there's any such thing. People learn a lesson, but every lesson can be forgotten, no matter how fundamental or obvious it is. You can observe that people do this -- not always, in every individual instance, but you can't name a lesson so basic and so obvious and such a no-brainer, that you can't find an example of someone learning the lesson and then doing the same old dumb thing they did before they learned it. And you can't name a person who isn't capable of doing this. That's a human quality, it's innate in our human nature: not that we will forget every lesson, but that any lesson can be forgotten, and every human being is capable of doing this. There are no eternal realizations that we are guaranteed to never forget; ironically, one of the few eternal things is our capability to forget.

That's not a reason to despair, by the way. If anything, it's the opposite, I think. It's only by understanding that our human nature impels us to do certain dumb things, like water seeking the lowest level, that we can hope to catch these impulses, and act in other ways.

Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote:

I agree most people probably think of enlightenment as an endstate where all the pain goes away instead of a pathway you have to keep working at. I tend to think it's the latter, but I hold out hope that it'll land in my lap. A fella can dream.

I think it does land in your lap. The potential is there in every moment, not just in special circumstances. But the conditions that make it possible can be cultivated, through various practices. Aikido is not one of these practices, I don't think. It's possible to have an enlightenment moment in the middle of aikido practice, sure, just as it is in the middle of anything -- but it's kind of like trying to fill a bucket with stones by lobbing them at the bucket from fifty feet away as it dangles from a rope, with someone yanking on the rope to make it swing about all the while. If the goal is to fill the bucket with stones, why not start first by putting the bucket down on a flat surface, standing close and dropping them in? Then, once you've got practice in the skill of doing that, you're more likely to have some success in progressively more difficult situations.

I'm good with delusion for the most part. I recognize that most of what I do in life is simply to avoid being bored and essentially acts as a form of distraction and entertainment to keep me thinking about death dying and all the problems in the world. I'm probably better that way. Aikiweb is a big part of that too.

if there's nowhere to rest at the end
how can I get lost along the way?
~~~~~~~~~~
Ten days in this temple and my mind is reeling!….
If you come some other day and ask for me,
Better look in a fish stall, a sake shop, or a brothel……
The spirit of Zen is manifest in ways countless as the
sands of the Ganges.

Well, "fundamentally change" sure sounds like it means a permanent and irreversible change...but I don't know that there's any such thing.

I agree. I don't view forms of enlightenment as necessarily permanent. I tend to believe the great constant is change.

Quote:

I think it does land in your lap. The potential is there in every moment, not just in special circumstances. But the conditions that make it possible can be cultivated, through various practices. Aikido is not one of these practices, I don't think. It's possible to have an enlightenment moment in the middle of aikido practice, sure, just as it is in the middle of anything -- but it's kind of like trying to fill a bucket with stones by lobbing them at the bucket from fifty feet away as it dangles from a rope, with someone yanking on the rope to make it swing about all the while.

I think it can land in our laps...and that trying too hard tends to push it away, but I think in this case too, chance favors the prepared mind. As for Aikido providing enlightenment compared to other practices, I think it's hard to accurately compare "Aikido" because there are so many different forms of Aikido practice. In my opinion, meager though it may be, some of the most enlightening states of mind I've attained came at the dojo, usually at the end when we're practicing silent meditation before bowing out, but not exclusively. This isn't to say the practice makes the feeling of "enlightenment," but I tend to view any practice as being somewhat accidental to that aim, though certainly some lend more to fostering that state of mind than others...both in and of themelves as well as relative to different personalities.
Thank you for the replies, Mary!
Take care,
Matt

I have only skimmed over the four pages of this thread, so I apologize in advance if I am restating something.

The title of this thread is more than just a question about modern aikido; it is also an assertion that aikido did, at one point, teach enlightenment. And I'm not sure I buy that. I think we can find enlightenment in anything. Why would aikido be any better suited to the pursuit of enlightenment than building boats, playing the piano, or long-distance running?

Enlightened teachings can be applied to all manner of things, like piano playing. However, there is nothing in piano instruction related to enlightenment specifically. In Aikido, the founder openly spoke of enlightment and how to live a life in pursuit of it.

With respect to all the many people who have spoken so definitively about enlightenment, how do you know what it is if you are not enlightened? Would you know if you were? Would others? If we don't know what it is how can we discuss whether "modern" aikido leads to "it"? This is without the fact that we don't even agree as to what aikido is, or was, or is meant to be. In answer to the koan, "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" the aspirant usually needs a smack round the head, literally or metaphorically. In the Tao Te Ching it says, "those who speak do not know, those who know do not speak", with the exception, of course, of good ol' Lao Tsu himself who said that from the other side of the looking glass.

In the Tao Te Ching it says, "those who speak do not know, those who know do not speak."

While I agree with pretty much everything you just said....I've always disagreed with the above quote and have thanked God that many visionaries and enlightened souls thought we were worth being taught/rescued/led to a better world.
I shudder to think of where we would be -just removing a handful of mighty souls.
Dan

But Dan I said that Lao Tsu said it, thats how it got in the Tae Te Ching in the first place, so I agree. Those who are enlightened need to demonstrate it but a lot of fools keep their eyes closed no matter what, neh?

But Dan, I said that Lao Tsu said it, thats how it got in the Tae Te Ching in the first place, so I agree.

Well...er...duh!...I got that!

Quote:

Those who are enlightened need to demonstrate it but a lot of fools keep their eyes closed no matter what, neh?

Well sure, but just think...a nation of white people were listening and galvanized by Martin Luther king. Breaking the heart of your adversaries with truth...is a powerful instrument.

While not a direct comparison, I know so many very capable guys who were drawn to Aikido to quiet their souls. It was the cooperative nature that some ridicule, that they sought in the first place. Aikido draws people for many reasons, and not everyone looks to it for fighting skills. Hence the wide range of those practicing it.
All the best
Dan

Isn't this a bit like saying "How do you know what running a four-minute mile is if you can't run it?"

Yes, it's very similar. If you have never seen running,cannot tell the time and the books you read, if you can read, all tell you something different and irrelevant to your own experience, then you have no idea what a four minute mile is.

Well sure, but just think...a nation of white people were listening and galvanized by Martin Luther king. Breaking the heart of your adversaries with truth...is a powerful instrument.

While not a direct comparison, I know so many very capable guys who were drawn to Aikido to quiet their souls. It was the cooperative nature that some ridicule, that they sought in the first place. Aikido draws people for many reasons, and not everyone looks to it for fighting skills. Hence the wide range of those practicing it.
All the best
Dan

When we next get together we can philosophize over a Chardonay . I do not compare the search for peace or healing with the quest for enlightenment. i also have no problem with many different people and different motives practicing. In fact, if my hip goes, I may become one of those slow motion, geriatric practitioners myself. Come to think of it I'm not far off already

Yes, it's very similar. If you have never seen running,cannot tell the time and the books you read, if you can read, all tell you something different and irrelevant to your own experience, then you have no idea what a four minute mile is.

i have done a fourty minute mile before. it was quite a sprint. i went full out the whole time. the bottom of my shoes were smoking.

Yes, it's very similar. If you have never seen running,cannot tell the time and the books you read, if you can read, all tell you something different and irrelevant to your own experience, then you have no idea what a four minute mile is.

"Much good in your 'if'". Your if is somewhat flawed, isn't it, Alec? Because we have seen running, we have run, and we can tell time, and we know what four minutes is. We don't have to experience every single experience at first hand to know anything about it.

Also, aren't you rather presuming that "enlightenment" is a permanent condition? Rather like being awarded a PhD, you get "enlightenment" and you got it and you're done? Are you quite sure that that's the case?

"Much good in your 'if'". Your if is somewhat flawed, isn't it, Alec? Because we have seen running, we have run, and we can tell time, and we know what four minutes is. We don't have to experience every single experience at first hand to know anything about it.

Also, aren't you rather presuming that "enlightenment" is a permanent condition? Rather like being awarded a PhD, you get "enlightenment" and you got it and you're done? Are you quite sure that that's the case?

Mary, it was an analogy. Clearly "enlightenment" is not something we see, at least not nowadays. All the enlightened people spoken of were in the past, either it doesn't happen anymore or we have lost the eyes to see it. You are correct that we don't have to experience everything to know anything about it but watching videos of swimming in the sea will not really prepare you for swimming in the ocean, does't tell you about the power of the currents, the nature of buoyancy, how strong you will need to be, etc.
Since i only have stories as criteria, yes, I presume that enlightenment is a permanent state. the stories of the Buddha do not include him "retaking his exams". Generally, in my home anyway, lights that have been switched on don't switch themselves off unless they blow.
Anyway this all just intellectual waffle isn't it?

Enlightened teachings can be applied to all manner of things, like piano playing. However, there is nothing in piano instruction related to enlightenment specifically. In Aikido, the founder openly spoke of enlightment and how to live a life in pursuit of it.

I've known many musicians and never really heard any of them speaking of enlightenment as though it was intertwined with music. If there are any that speak of enlightenment as something highly important that transcends their music, then I would say there is little difference.

Mark
In my mind enlightenment means becoming a well balanced and capable individual who is sane enough to handle most if not all of the stuff that is thrown at us each day. Slips and falls are part of the routine.......happens to everyone, though some do not see that of themselves.

So does Aikido provide all of the answers....I don't think so...though it can be one of the tools. I think how much I learned from my daughter, and still do, when she was younger....and continue to learn from my wife through our relationship....meeting with you was just one of thousands of experiences that lead to growth, awareness of self. Keep practicing even if it is not the be all end all.................

in friendship

Gary.

This being said I shall share a lesson my daughters experiance helped me see. She reciently started baby sitting. The first week she was frazzled at the end of every day. So to might a viewer of these postings. Then like a switch had flipped she seemed calm and centered. After asking what had changed she said she did. She only had to get acoustomed to the babies crying.