Of note: "'I love America. I like America. Why, I don't know,' Mohammed said as he recounted the critical role he played in Lynch's rescue."

To our indigenous leftists who constantly rail against this country I say this: This Iraqi, who, as you all like to say, "we are bombing the fuck out of", loves America. Why don't you???

Edit: I wish I could edit that typo in the title.

(edited by Bizzle Izzle on 4.4.03 1032)'But if one is struck by me only a little, that is far different, the stroke is a sharp thing and suddenly lays him lifeless, and that man's wife goes with cheeks torn in lamentation, and his children are fatherless, while he, staining the soil with his red blood, rots away, and there are more birds than women swarming about him.' Diomedes, The Iliad of Homer

Bizzle, first off, leftist isn't really an insult. It describes people who disagree with you, politically. It doesn't axiomatically describe people who hate America. Do some? Sure. Do some "rightists" hate America? Sure - (Michigan Militia types, McVeigh, etc.)

It is possible to love America, and still disagree with what is happening in Iraq. There are people who disagree with what is going on in Iraq BECAUSE they love America.

I'm not from America originally - I've lived here for seven years, and married an American, and work and pay taxes without even being allowed to vote, because I'm not yet a citizen. I wouldn't do that if I didn't think America was a great place. I think it's great because of it's basic fairness, free speech, and individual liberties. I also think America has problems, the greatest of which might be the need of a great chunk of the population to see everything as a case of black and white, us vs them, and demonize your opponents while you're at it.

I think you are sincere that what you think is best for the country. Most of those who disagree with you are sincere that what they think is also best for the county. This "leftists hate america" stuff is ridiculous.

And: What passes for leftist here is in the center in a lot of other places in the world. It really isn't that scary.

End rant.

Edit: oh yeah, that demonizing the opponents thing? Both sides do it. Just wanted to be clear on that point.

Edit #2: Stupid typos.(edited by Mr. Heat Miser on 4.4.03 1110)

(edited by Mr. Heat Miser on 4.4.03 1111)-MHM, winner of the 2000 Throwdown in Christmastown.

Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle "'I love America. I like America. Why, I don't know,' Mohammed said as he recounted the critical role he played in Lynch's rescue."

To our indigenous leftists who constantly rail against this country I say this: This Iraqi, who, as you all like to say, "we are bombing the fuck out of", loves America. Why don't you???

So...

1) Americans should just "love America" unconditionally, and not question why they should, or whether America's government and/or military are currently acting in a manner worthy of that respect and love?

2) I must have missed something here. Who appointed you as the official arbiter of who "loves America" and who doesn't?

People who perceive America going down the wrong path and are motivated to do something about it _do_ love America. If they didn't -- if they REALLY despised America and all it stands for -- they'd just sit back, watch the car crash and cackle as America goes down the tubes. They care about America a hell of a lot more than the slugs who don't vote, don't read or watch the news, and are apathetic to anything that doesn't affect their bank statements or lifestyles directly.

Here's the thing that I grasp and you don't seem to: the group of "people who perceive America going down the wrong path" is not limited to any one particular perspective or point of view. People from all points on the political spectrum are capable of perceiving that and wanting to do something about it. The methods will differ, the end goals will differ, but the motivations behind them aren't as different as you like to paint them.

I may think that you're publically wrong in your opinions so often that I can set my watch by it most days, and may shudder at many of your posted thoughts on America and its relationship with the rest of the world... but would I throw the label of "America-hater" at you, even if I perceive many of your posted beliefs as being quite detrimental to what I believe are America's best interests?

No. In your own peculiar, jingoistic way, you want the best for America and Americans in general. You want your vision of What America Should Be to take root, and rail against anyone whose dissenting opinions stand in the way of that. You have much more faith in the current government than I do, but that doesn't make you objectively "wrong" and me objectively "right" -- OR vice versa, because we're both looking at each other's opinions through big clouds of personal bias.

I may denounce or giggle at your opinions, but I don't view you as being a lesser American for having them. I ask the same in return. If many on the right could take off the "Anyone who disagrees with me is EVIL and HATES AMERICA" goggles and view their opposition with a little more discretion, some much-needed civility could return to the American political process.

Just some food for thought.

"Let me put it another way. In support of our troops, I recently offered one of my angry correspondents on this issue a bet: I will try my damnedest to keep her son out of combat in the Gulf, and she will continue to support the president's war drive. Whoever keeps her son alive longest, wins." -- Ben Tripp, CounterPunch

"It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?"-----Phillip J. Fry, Futurama

Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastardThat's just inflammatory and ignorant. Grow up.

Hey, it was just an honest question. Freedom of speech and all that right? I just wanted to know, don't get bent out of shape. And I do appreciate the posts from the HeatMiser and vsp. You both made better arguments than I have seen from the left in a long time. I've re-read them each a couple times.

'But if one is struck by me only a little, that is far different, the stroke is a sharp thing and suddenly lays him lifeless, and that man's wife goes with cheeks torn in lamentation, and his children are fatherless, while he, staining the soil with his red blood, rots away, and there are more birds than women swarming about him.' Diomedes, The Iliad of Homer

I rail against this country because I love it so much. The promise of the "shining city on the hill", as surely one of your favorite presidents put it, is so glorious and beautiful that to allow this nation to fall short of it would be an insult. I will not let my single voice fall silent while this country can do so much better by her people. I demand better of this nation than simply being good, or being better than the Europeans or anything of that ilk. This is a nation that is supposed to be unique in the world, the one place where nothing should be able to hold you back save your own talents and desire. I don't believe we are that nation right now, so I scold her and the people who cause that to be the case. If I didn't love America, I would have no need to ever do so. I am a white male of decent means and thus not really hurt by many of the things I find appalling. I could sit back and just enjoy what I can have. But I cannot do that, because I love this country too much to accept anything but the best out of it.

I am against this war because I love America. I dispute that this is the best way to defend her at this exact point in time. It is my belief that we are not acting in the best interest of the entire nation by going into Iraq. We could argue this forever, but really we all know each other's reasons by this point. The point though is that I too wince when I hear of American soldiers being taken captive. Hell, I wince twice as hard since I feel that these deaths were not necessary and that young Americans have died for what I feel were not the best of reasons.

I take great offense when dissent is equated with a lack of affection for the United States. Especially when for 8 years while Clinton ran things the right attacked everything he did and said. When during the Kosovo operation people loudly questioned his judgment and now these same people are saying that now that war has begun no one should question the war. Well I am sorry, but if love for your country is equated with silence when her young people are being sent off to die in a faraway land for what seem to me to be misguided at best and purely vindictive at worst reasons...well that kind of love is flawed and damaging, and I will not participate in such a thing.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it." - Robert E. Lee

For anyone who thinks that Booker will be going over HHH at Backlash, feel free to PM me about the HHH Challenge.

Originally posted by spf2119 Especially when for 8 years while Clinton ran things the right attacked everything he did and said. When during the Kosovo operation people loudly questioned his judgment and now these same people are saying that now that war has begun no one should question the war. Well I am sorry, but if love for your country is equated with silence when her young people are being sent off to die in a faraway land for what seem to me to be misguided at best and purely vindictive at worst reasons...well that kind of love is flawed and damaging, and I will not participate in such a thing.

My questioning of Kosovo was based purely on one factor: I don't like fighting in mountainous areas. That they were able to pull Kosovo off purely as an air war shocked me. This is actually the reason why I have no problem fighting anyone in the Middle East, because on flat land, the U.S. technology is a vast advantage. Go into mountainous/jungle regions, and the technology can easily be negated. And of course, the other factor I take in any war the U.S. is involved in is whether the U.S. is fighting to win or fighting not to lose (vast difference). If your fighting not to lose, odds are your going to lose.

Hey spf2119 one of the main reasons why we went into Kosovo was because of the mass killings that were said to happen. NATO never found any mass graves. I hope if the US does not find any WOMD in Iraq right way (I think they will) the left will be just as quite as it was to Clinton when they found nothing in Kosovo

Now I am all for going into Iraq just to liberate the people. I was all for going into Kosovo to liberate them. Getting the WOMD is just a bonus for me.

Originally posted by calvinh0560Hey spf2119 one of the main reasons why we went into Kosovo was because of the mass killings that were said to happen. NATO never found any mass graves. I hope if the US does not find any WOMD in Iraq right way (I think they will) the left will be just as quite as it was to Clinton when they found nothing in Kosovo

"1) Americans should just "love America" unconditionally, and not question why they should, or whether America's government and/or military are currently acting in a manner worthy of that respect and love?

DAMN STRAIGHT. All Americans should cherish America. It is their home. Say what you will about the politics, the air, the water, the traffic, the cost of living, the bizarre cultures, taxes, the weather, or what have you, but how can you carry a grudge against our land? This is my back yard, as well as yours. I'm not saying the place is perfect. After all, society is only as good as it's individuals. However, this country is still my home, as well as the home of my father, and was my grandfather's home. America is not in the abstract, nor is it a notion. It's here, it's now, and we're all a part of it, and the sooner we accept that, the sooner we can bridge those impressive gaps leftists and rightwingers have made for people of independent opinion to venture.

Quoth calvinh0560:

"Well sorry I meant the huge mass graves that was said to be in Kosovo at the time. There were 3000 to 6000 graves found. No where near the 100,000 that was reported before the war."

First and foremost, how many mass graves have you ever seen in person? 6,000 mass graves as opposed to 100,000, and you say that like a mere pittance. If one mass grave were found in the U.S., it would tie up all the major networks and the news channels. The public outcry would be outrageous.

(edited by Lexus on 5.4.03 0138)

(edited by Lexus on 5.4.03 0140)I own a Gamecube, and I own Eternal Darkness.

"1) Americans should just "love America" unconditionally, and not question why they should, or whether America's government and/or military are currently acting in a manner worthy of that respect and love?

DAMN STRAIGHT. All Americans should cherish America. It is their home. Say what you will about the politics, the air, the water, the traffic, the cost of living, the bizarre cultures, taxes, the weather, or what have you, but how can you carry a grudge against our land?

Good god... do you really believe that? Blind obedience, no matter what, never questioning whether what people are doing in your country's name is right or wrong? Do you honestly think that because it's the American government, that it's incapable of error, corruption, or anything even remotely imperfect?

Christ. That sort of fanatacism is terrifying. It tends to wind up toting explosives around.

Originally posted by LexusDAMN STRAIGHT. All Americans should cherish America. It is their home. Say what you will about the politics, the air, the water, the traffic, the cost of living, the bizarre cultures, taxes, the weather, or what have you, but how can you carry a grudge against our land?

Good god... do you really believe that? Blind obedience, no matter what, never questioning whether what people are doing in your country's name is right or wrong? Do you honestly think that because it's the American government, that it's incapable of error, corruption, or anything even remotely imperfect?

Christ. That sort of fanatacism is terrifying. It tends to wind up toting explosives around.

Not everyone is "deeply ashamed" of where they come from. If you read what lexus said he didn't say blindly follow the American government or anything about Blind obedience. He said love America, it's your home. Note where he says "say what you will about politics..." That doesn't sound like blind obedience to me.

'But if one is struck by me only a little, that is far different, the stroke is a sharp thing and suddenly lays him lifeless, and that man's wife goes with cheeks torn in lamentation, and his children are fatherless, while he, staining the soil with his red blood, rots away, and there are more birds than women swarming about him.' Diomedes, The Iliad of Homer

Originally posted by LexusFirst and foremost, how many mass graves have you ever seen in person? 6,000 mass graves as opposed to 100,000, and you say that like a mere pittance. If one mass grave were found in the U.S., it would tie up all the major networks and the news channels. The public outcry would be outrageous.

(edited by Lexus on 5.4.03 0138)

(edited by Lexus on 5.4.03 0140)

I am sorry 3000-6000 deaths in Mass Graves. I am sorry for my incorrect use of terms. And no 3000-6000 people killed for no reason is not something I take lightly. I was in favor of going into Kosovo to liberate them. I am in favor of going into Iraq just to liberate the people of Iraq. My point was that the reason why we went into Kosovo was the deaths of 100,000 people. We did not find it. A lot of people did not make a big stink about it because it was the right thing to do. Now some people thing the only reason we are entering Iraq is to get their WOMD. If we (being the US) do not find any (and I think we will) I hope people do not make a big stink about that because going into Iraq and freeing its people is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by Bizzle IzzleNot everyone is "deeply ashamed" of where they come from. If you read what lexus said he didn't say blindly follow the American government or anything about Blind obedience. He said love America, it's your home. Note where he says "say what you will about politics..." That doesn't sound like blind obedience to me.

Love America because of what it stands for, love America because of the life you can lead living there, love America for any reason you like. But have a reason. The ability to think about and to question what this country is all about is one of the greatest things we have. Always think. Always question. Because if you're not, you're just taking it all for granted.

Originally posted by Bizzle IzzleNot everyone is "deeply ashamed" of where they come from. If you read what lexus said he didn't say blindly follow the American government or anything about Blind obedience. He said love America, it's your home. Note where he says "say what you will about politics..." That doesn't sound like blind obedience to me.

Love America because of what it stands for, love America because of the life you can lead living there, love America for any reason you like. But have a reason. The ability to think about and to question what this country is all about is one of the greatest things we have. Always think. Always question. Because if you're not, you're just taking it all for granted.

Uh, I gave a reason. It's where I live, where a vast majority of my friends live, and where I hang out. It's my neighborhood, as well as my friends neighborhoods. It's where my cousins ride their bikes, be it my cousins in the Chicago area, my cousin in San Fransisco, or my cousins in New York. It's where I walk my dog. It's where I lost my virginity, where I learned to read, to swim, to laugh, and to cry. Granted, there are a few bad things happening in our country and our planet that are of the grandest scale. However, sugar is only good in small amounts, and the sweetest parts of life are the small things, and luckily, in America, we have a lot of those.

Other things I love about America; plumbing, candy, Football, my hat, pavement, Playboy, milk, movies, couches, porcelain, and shoes. There are places on this earth that don't have access to these things, and I have access to them on demand.

I'm sorry if you misconstrued my meaning in my first post. I live in America, and am a part of American society. I have an American life. I appreciate my life, thusly, I appreciate America. That seems like simple logic to me.

Oh, and I recommend you turn off your TV, try to stop thinking, and stop questioning, and simply observe, without the biases of thought, what's going on around you within a 100 foot radius. This is where the most important things of your day will happen. This is where things impact you personally rather than everybody on the whole. And no, not all of it is good, but it isn't all bad either, unless your modem somehow works in a crack house. But then you'd be high on crack, and probably wouldn't be complaining too much.

From the midnight crowd at a local diner to the 11 a.m. crowd on the Metro to the 5 p.m. crowd at a local pub, this is America, and they are Americans.

(edited by Lexus on 5.4.03 1633)I own a Gamecube, and I own Eternal Darkness.

Good grief. I had been TRYING to stay out of this forum, but sometimes, I just can't help myself.

Blind faith in ones country is just stupid. If we should be like this, why do we put down other countries who are the same way toward thier own country. The Soviet Union was full of people who actually LIKED being communists, but that's BAD so we were against that. It's thier country, they can do what they want. Any country that is NOT America is basicly bad to us because they are NOT America, but when other countries people feel the same way they are put down or invaded or something.

...I'm not saying what I mean here, I think. It's sounding like I'm an ass, I can't seem to find the right words I'm thinking in my head damnit... I'll go on to the next thing...

Kosovo. The only reason people were complaining about us going into Kosovo was because there wasn't any monetary reason for us to get involved. No oil fields or anything so why waste the effort.

Nate The Snake says "Love America because of what it stands for, love America because of the life you can lead living there, love America for any reason you like. But have a reason. The ability to think about and to question what this country is all about is one of the greatest things we have. Always think. Always question. Because if you're not, you're just taking it all for granted." I am fully behind this. So now I ask 'What DOES America stand for these days?' The only answers I can come up with are Money, Power, Greed... I may be a child of the 80s but that was 2 decades ago, what are we supposed to be standing for now? What ever happened to 'Truth and Justice'.

Originally posted by LexusOh, and I recommend you turn off your TV, try to stop thinking, and stop questioning, and simply observe, without the biases of thought, what's going on around you within a 100 foot radius. This is where the most important things of your day will happen. This is where things impact you personally rather than everybody on the whole. And no, not all of it is good, but it isn't all bad either, unless your modem somehow works in a crack house. But then you'd be high on crack, and probably wouldn't be complaining too much.

Sorry, I happen to like the fact that my mind works. If I were to try and observe things without the "bias of thought", well, it'd pretty much be limited to figuring out whether or not it was either edible, about to eat me, or suitable for mating with. As a sentient being, I sort of relish being able to appreciate the rest of the experience.

If you want to spend as much time as possible without thinking, go right ahead. Here's a few tips: The great metal beast in the sky serves crappy food. The sungod, so far, has done a great job of keeping it going, so I'd recommend worshipping him. And, of course, fire bad. (:

Originally posted by LexusOh, and I recommend you turn off your TV, try to stop thinking, and stop questioning, and simply observe, without the biases of thought, what's going on around you within a 100 foot radius. This is where the most important things of your day will happen. This is where things impact you personally rather than everybody on the whole. And no, not all of it is good, but it isn't all bad either, unless your modem somehow works in a crack house. But then you'd be high on crack, and probably wouldn't be complaining too much.

Sorry, I happen to like the fact that my mind works. If I were to try and observe things without the "bias of thought", well, it'd pretty much be limited to figuring out whether or not it was either edible, about to eat me, or suitable for mating with. As a sentient being, I sort of relish being able to appreciate the rest of the experience.

If you want to spend as much time as possible without thinking, go right ahead. Here's a few tips: The great metal beast in the sky serves crappy food. The sungod, so far, has done a great job of keeping it going, so I'd recommend worshipping him. And, of course, fire bad. (: