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Make a points system and assign twists points values, so instead of eyeballing it we have like

1-5: basically TV Survivor5-10: Got some game specific mechanics and probably a few swaps10-15: game specific mechanics, possibly one or two bastard elements15-20: Basically Arkham

I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. FreezePlan B: it serves you right if i (hug) you in the face though, right?I love it when people talk about my brutal murder in front of me, it's actually my secret fetish - Sangmin

Yeah TV Survivor is getting a lot more twist-heavy for stupid reasons.

Maybe make your base level, like "This season is like a pre-HvV seasons," because post-HvV is probably my line where seasons start getting stupid (RI, frequent captaining seasons). Maybe the line is better put at Second Chances, since post-SC seems to have ramped up even further.

On Borobudur: I think it was a really brilliant challenge. Part of the challenge was figuring out your wincon (fun fact: I actually "figured out" the wrong wincon. I went down every possible path because I just happened to find the correct path last. I originally thought you had to go to every person from every other person). If the challenge had a weirder/less obvious wincon, and you had to find it basically by stumbling into it, then I would be like "yeah that was a problem," but I don't think it was onerously hard to figure out "guess shit until it works, diagram what you're doing so as to not do shit multiple times in a row."

On twists: We need to figure this shit out preferably sooner rather than later. Like, it probably just makes sense to just set a scale and people can disagree with the scale on a personal level if they so desire (for example: I think the mafia rules for "normal" are bullshit because roles that require the mod to lie to the players are implicitly bastard, even if they are "common," but I am still very much aware that normal games on MS can have godfathers and that that is part of the standard). Like, this isn't the first game where this has happened (oh hi MLS), and it's probably important as we make more of an effort on a meta-level to run a wide range of types of games to counteract the recent trend towards heavy-twist/bastard.

The most sensible thing to do would be to just score the survivor seasons for a comparison.

I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. FreezePlan B: it serves you right if i (hug) you in the face though, right?I love it when people talk about my brutal murder in front of me, it's actually my secret fetish - Sangmin

I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. FreezePlan B: it serves you right if i (hug) you in the face though, right?I love it when people talk about my brutal murder in front of me, it's actually my secret fetish - Sangmin

PSV had tribes picked by the worst voted players, two double votes, two interesting tribe swaps and a bonus vacation. It felt very organic because everything was being explained as it happened, there weren't many surprises. It wasn't twisty for a site game! It's twisty say, compared to the first 15 seasons of survivor. That's the kind of comparison I mean.

I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. FreezePlan B: it serves you right if i (hug) you in the face though, right?I love it when people talk about my brutal murder in front of me, it's actually my secret fetish - Sangmin

Yeah, it should definitely be on the Listmod to scale it since there's always going to be an inherent mod bias. I like the scale of 1-20 or 1-10 idea, but if we implement this we need to go through past games and score them.

I think what irked me about the twist-heaviness was this sentence:

with a few twists but nothing completely out of left field.

The thing with Mafia game normalcy is that the Notmal queue actually lets the mod implement exactly one non-Normal rule if they so choose. There might need to be some sort of parallel to that if we go for a normal/non-normal/bastard thing.

Back to school, back to indefinite semi-V/LA. I should still be reachable through normal means though.

In post 39, xRECKONERx wrote:#2- We really need a better way to classify games. It doesn't have to spell out every twist, sure. But I think there are very distinct levels in Survivor that people should be able to anticipate. In Mafia games, people label their games in various ways. "Bastard" means "oh fuck here I go with some bullshit". "Role madness" means the game will be more focused on role interaction than day deduction. "Normal" means a game that features a set list of mechanics. I'm not saying we have to be so granular, but there was a misunderstanding here between what the game entailed versus what the game ended up being. When I signed up for Arkham City, I knew it would be buckwild and expected it. When I ran #2016, we told people that there would be some wild mechanics regarding delegates. Here, I had no way to anticipate three tribe swaps PLUS returnee twist PLUS 16 items entering the game at merge. I just think it'd be nice for people to know what to expect. It's possible I'm operating in a vacuum and that shit doesn't matter to other people, so I would welcome feedback.

The Mish Mash mods have already started discussing some things with this and will be getting feedback from the community in order to help define what fits where. One of the bigger problems is that what one person considers heavily twisty isn't something that everyone across the board can agree is extremely twisty. It's easy to put games like the Arkham games and Doctor Who solidly in bastard/heavy twist territory, and games like Nexus and 2016 into very twist. But when it comes to games like Pretty Super Vanilla, Hogwarts, or Eon there isn't clear agreement on whether these are low twist games or not. So the plan is to figure out a standardized labeling system so that people know what to expect when they sign up for the games and we don't fall into this sort of problem again.

Thats why you have clear parameters. The reason no one has a clear idea is because theres no way to have this information.

I think we all thought thats what the mandatory reviewer was indicating. 17 items in a merge is not low twist. Items are not low twist. Tribe swaps every two rounds not low twist.

People have different definitions...but so what? how is that relevant

its a pre immediate problem. Civ and MLS have both really bamboozled players and made them upset.

Last edited by hiplop on Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

I didn't get the chance to play because of real life stuff that happened, but I did want to thank the modsFor being very helpful and assisting me during that time and pulling me out when I couldn't focus on it for the real life thing that happened.

I thought Borobudur was a frustrating but very interesting challenge. I definitely enjoy the idea of it but my biggest issue with it was that it wasn't clear how we were being judged. As I was playing I had to angleshoot about what would make more sense for the mods to judge it by, number of moves or time. That definitely had an impact on how I played it because I spent extra time trying to optimize my paths with the map that I had of it. I think it was fine for us to go in not knowing it was a maze, but I think we should've known how it was being judged.

"Welcome to Whose Line is it Anyway folks where the reasoning's made up and the reads don't matter."

In post 69, DrumBeats wrote:I thought Borobudur was a frustrating but very interesting challenge. I definitely enjoy the idea of it but my biggest issue with it was that it wasn't clear how we were being judged. As I was playing I had to angleshoot about what would make more sense for the mods to judge it by, number of moves or time. That definitely had an impact on how I played it because I spent extra time trying to optimize my paths with the map that I had of it. I think it was fine for us to go in not knowing it was a maze, but I think we should've known how it was being judged.

yeah, this was bullshit. challenge was weird but fine, lack of judging criteria is a major no-no

And on the items, the big thing was just that the auction was so over saturated with them. We could've had just 8 then, and it'd have made it much better imo. The issue with 16 was that a lot of it came down to luck on who was bidding where on the 8 mystery prizes. Yes Alex had a ton of money, but he also got lucky that people didn't bid heavy on the mystery prizes he was going for. When you have 8 mystery boxes that contain such drastically different rewards (pizza vs an idol), it's a crapshoot. At 8 items, every item is likely to be bid somewhat heavily on, so it stops one person from sweeping them.

"Welcome to Whose Line is it Anyway folks where the reasoning's made up and the reads don't matter."

In post 69, DrumBeats wrote:I thought Borobudur was a frustrating but very interesting challenge. I definitely enjoy the idea of it but my biggest issue with it was that it wasn't clear how we were being judged. As I was playing I had to angleshoot about what would make more sense for the mods to judge it by, number of moves or time. That definitely had an impact on how I played it because I spent extra time trying to optimize my paths with the map that I had of it. I think it was fine for us to go in not knowing it was a maze, but I think we should've known how it was being judged.

yeah, this was bullshit. challenge was weird but fine, lack of judging criteria is a major no-no

I think Boudica still beat me on moves though so it didn't matter in the end, but I was pissed about it at the time.

"Welcome to Whose Line is it Anyway folks where the reasoning's made up and the reads don't matter."