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yeah but, if you don't mind me saying, that way you're just stuck in your head. i mean, you have a closed perspective on things, you are not the universe, you don't know if your vision of being a pilot is close to reality. you kinda have to experience it, or at least get closer to it, to see how it is. no?
anyway, I'm really loving this forum. i to have a lot of problems to understand Ni (and i super appreciate my Ni-dom friends) so you're all helping me out

Originally Posted by Ribonuke

Okay, I think I finally have the hang of this Introversion vs Extroversion thing.

Extroversion: Reacts to environment.
Introversion: Reacts to self.

So an Ne-user would be more focused upon carrying through with an aspiration (such as a job they'd like to do someday), while a Ni-user would be more concerned with coming up with an imaginary scenario in their head and then...well, maybe acting upon it less directly?

Another example:

Ne: "Someday...I wanna be a pilot. I wanna feel the thrill of flying, cruise the skies, and make use of the technology mankind has developed to accommodate for our lack of wings!"

Ni: "Hmm...I wonder what it's like to be a pilot? *suddenly gets a vivid mental image in their head of being a pilot, and an impression of what it'd be like, how their superiors would behave to them, how difficult it is to operate the machinery*"

I'm definitely an Ni-user, which leaves me with a tendency to daydream. While it gives me a creative flow, I can come off as kinda lazy because I don't 'act' as often upon my ideas. Because I am auxiliary Fe, I only really act upon my Ni-generated ideas when I have support from others. And it also doesn't help because I have this constant compulsion to be 'on call' for everyone and anyone all the time, even though it never lets me get anything done... ._.;;

Ha ha. Nice example. And I'd like to add that while the INTJ might think that the INTP is simply being a pain in the ass or trying to annoy him (which of course could be the case if the INTJ has previously provoked resentment in the INTP) it is probably more likely that this really does matter and makes a relevent difference to the INTP.

Sloppy language leads to sloppy thinking and sloppy thinking is an abomination before the Lord!

To a Ti dom inconsistencies or incomplete depictions of a system often cause what I like to call the "Ti headache": it makes us nervous and uncomfortable and causes an almost irresistable urge to say: "well, actually ...". This isn't about being a smartass nitpicker, it is about putting the universe back in order. Screw practicality, a false or misleading statement is a stain on the cosmos' crisp white cotton shirt.

Yeah, I totally get that, and I understand where INTPs are coming from when they do that. I perceive two general problems with the INTP approach, though. (Not that the INTJ approach doesn't have problems.)

The INTP's logical misgivings only matter in a material sense about 1 time in 10, in my experience. That one time is very important, of course, but the other nine feel like, erm, red herrings, to the INTJ. xNTPs in general can get a reputation for crying wolf in a business organization, if they aren't careful and treat every imperfection as if it urgently needs a remedy.

The INTP is so focused on the perceived logical consistency that he stops listening, interrupting in the middle of a statement without processing everything in the statement. INTPs aren't ignorant of context, but the perceived wrinkle might actually be straightened out by context if one waits for a statement to be completed.

On the INTJ side, the problem is more along the lines of realizing the effect of one's own force of personality: even if one is honestly trying to carefully analyze a topic and inviting others' opinions, the INTJ's challenging dialectic back-and-forth will cause some people to simply back off and avoid the perceived "conflict." INTJs can get surrounded by "yes men" who either believe the INTJ is an idiot or must really know what he's doing if he's so confident, which is exactly what INTJs don't want.

The main fix on the INTJ side is to present ideas more gently. It can still be declarative, but interjecting statements like "Please let me know if I'm wrong about something, here" or "Is there anything I'm missing?" can go a long way to break past the communication barriers.

The main fix on the INTP side is to tone down the intensity w/r to a statement being wrong. A typical tone-down I see in real life looks like, "I think that might not be entirely accurate." (I use this one myself!) Also, once a flaw or inconsistency is shared and duly noted by others, recognize that its relative importance is dependent upon others' priorities, not just one's own. If you think it's really important, brainstorm with an xNTJ (or xxTJ if that's all you have) to cooperatively come up with use cases where the identified logical flaw could backfire in such a way that a later fix is likely to be both very urgent and difficult to implement.

FYI, INTJs typically dismiss flaws on the grounds that the expected urgency and difficulty are acceptable. In particular, INTJs instinctively realize that one always has more information about how to redo something at the time the fix is needed than when speculating into the future. A common ground can be found (for example) in software, where both INTJ and INTP will want to build things to be simple and flexible, keeping in mind that most changes are completely unexpected.

An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

To put things in perspective, I find that INTPs react badly to "incomplete" INTJ statements. As an analogy (not a real technical discussion but a simulation of one), I might see something like this:

INTJ: The switch turns the light on.
INTP: That's not true.
INTJ: Of course it is. *walks over to the switch, turns the light on and off a few times with the switch* See? The switch turns the light on.

I can understand the INTP's frustration here, but could never understand why they don't just short-circuit the discussion at this point by pointing out that "it shuts the light off, too". This would avoid a whole lot of nitpicky beating around the bush.

Originally Posted by uumlau

On the INTJ side, the problem is more along the lines of realizing the effect of one's own force of personality: even if one is honestly trying to carefully analyze a topic and inviting others' opinions, the INTJ's challenging dialectic back-and-forth will cause some people to simply back off and avoid the perceived "conflict." INTJs can get surrounded by "yes men" who either believe the INTJ is an idiot or must really know what he's doing if he's so confident, which is exactly what INTJs don't want.

I experience this quite often. I tend to assume people can hold their own with me, because many of them do. I'm always puzzled and rather disappointed when someone just gives up in this manner. Even my INTP does it sometimes. I find myself in the odd position of almost begging the other person to disagree with me, in a substantive way: "show me where I'm wrong; I really want to see it!"

I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

This is a silly thread. I engage in real life debates with an INTJ at least one day a week, so it's really hard to take this stuff I'm reading here seriously.

Yes, he thinks he's the smartest guy around. But so what if his IQ is in the 99th percentile, that doesn't mean he knows everything. That's why he hates the internet, I can Google the information he used to provide; or I can use it to prove him wrong on subjects like electricity or how flat screen tv's create a picture. These are outside his field of expertise, yet he has to demonstrate knowledge that he doesn't really have. And if he can't fake the knowledge he gets really pissy.

In my view, the INTP/INTJ conflict is over knowledge vs. methodology or logic. An INTJ methodology involves inventing any rationalization to "prove" the validity of his knowledge. And when pursued to the brink, he will simply say "I'm right because I went to college for 8 years." It doesn't matter to him that none of his 8 years of college even covered the topic in question.

It just seems like there's a lot of INTP bashing in this thread. INTPs can be nitpicky - and so can ISTJs - but only in the interest of stifling communication.

Here is a real life example of ISTJ nitpicking. I was discussing an F1 tornado I saw a few years ago. It was a few miles away from where I was standing, but it was clearly, to me, a tornado. The ISTJ tells me that I don't know if it was really a tornado because I didn't see it touching the ground. So I said, "In other words, it could have been hovering an inch above ground and therefore only be a funnel cloud?" "Exactly."

Ni with Te looks at perspectives as being important through the usage of insights, with occasional empirical evidence < (I said this as Ni tends to be very strong in either of the Ni dom types and in an INTJ it tends to sideline Te's normal nature of application somewhat.

and

Ti with Ne looks at subjective system analysis as being important through the usage of empirical evidence and correlating ideas.

Both of them suffer from a problem of sometimes leaving out information that would go against their argument, but that could be put down to more of a human flaw than a functional one since INFJ's can do the same.

This is a silly thread. I engage in real life debates with an INTJ at least one day a week, so it's really hard to take this stuff I'm reading here seriously.

Yes, he thinks he's the smartest guy around. But so what if his IQ is in the 99th percentile, that doesn't mean he knows everything. That's why he hates the internet, I can Google the information he used to provide; or I can use it to prove him wrong on subjects like electricity or how flat screen tv's create a picture. These are outside his field of expertise, yet he has to demonstrate knowledge that he doesn't really have. And if he can't fake the knowledge he gets really pissy.

Why is it when there is a discussion comparing INTJs to INTPs, with several civil posts from both INTJs and INTPs, invariably, it seems that someone will post something like, "Oh, yeah? Well, I know an INTJ in real life, and he's just a pretentious jerk." Yours isn't the only one: check out the whole thread.

Such points beg the question, and come across as remarkably self-serving. We don't know whether the real life person is really an INTJ, whether he was actually correct/incorrect about something, whether the poster misinterpreted what he said, or whether the poster's assessment of his emotional state (e.g., "pissy", "arrogant") is an accurate synopsis. We only have the poster's assertions of such, and no, we can't use Google to fact check such anecdotes.

In my view, the INTP/INTJ conflict is over knowledge vs. methodology or logic. An INTJ methodology involves inventing any rationalization to "prove" the validity of his knowledge. And when pursued to the brink, he will simply say "I'm right because I went to college for 8 years." It doesn't matter to him that none of his 8 years of college even covered the topic in question.

"Any rationalization ..." Do you seriously believe that your singular example, which may or may not be accurate, applies to all INTJs as a class?

I was talking with a wonderful young woman last night, who turned out to be an INTJ. She was charming and gracious, and I'd definitely picked up the Ni vibe and typed her as a likely INFJ. I broached the topic with her and she replied that she was an INTJ. I asked whether there was any doubt on the F/T? "Hell no!" she replied.

So, should I generalize from this anecdotal evidence that all INTJs are lovely, charming and gracious?

It just seems like there's a lot of INTP bashing in this thread.

You might want to take a peek in the cognitive mirror, so to speak.

An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

@uumlau: I mostly agree on your analysis. The thing is that both sides measure success in different ways. Yes, if I want to simply get something done I will probably approach a TJ, preferably an NTJ and ask for their input. They have a very refreshing and efficient way of cutting things down to the core essentials and the most likely outcome. This is especially important in a efficiency focused environment. But that is a Te target which, naturally, is best served by Te and Ni.
But there is more to life than business and engineering. As an INTP, I am on this earth to observe and learn and try to understand. To me, beautiful and elegant thought constructs are an end in themselves. I usually couldn't care less about how useful or efficient an idea is. I am more inpressed by coherent explanatory systems that are elegantly closed in themselves. To these ends, Ti-Ne is much more useful.

This might sound a bit redundant, but what I am trying to say is that the qualities of Te best serve to reach the goals Te usually strives for and the qualities of Ti best serve the goals Ti strives for. So if a Te user tells me that something is of no practical use, I can only answer "so what? there are more important things in life than something as profane as practical use!" And they might shake their heads at me in disbelief. And if I criticize a hole in a system of theirs and they answer: "so what? - it works!" I can only shake my head in disbelief at such disregard for "Truth" and elegance
So what you criticize as a weakness of the INTP is a weakness if you look a it with the eyes of an INTJ - focused on efficiency and outcome - and vice versa, the weakness of the INTJ - closed to detail and alternatives - is a weakness in the eyes of an INTP...you might say that weakness lies in the eye of the beholder and depends on that person's own criteria and goals.

The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand RussellA herring's blogJohari / Nohari

Why is it when there is a discussion comparing INTJs to INTPs, with several civil posts from both INTJs and INTPs, invariably, it seems that someone will post something like, "Oh, yeah? Well, I know an INTJ in real life, and he's just a pretentious jerk." Yours isn't the only one: check out the whole thread.

So annoying.

Originally Posted by uumlau

So, should I generalize from this anecdotal evidence that all INTJs are lovely, charming and gracious?