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Re: Gigabyte G41M-Combo Vcore BIOS setting does not work

You're welcome, glad to help out.

I don't think that any motherboard manufacturer will provide tech support for a ten year old product. Maybe some would provide limited support on a hardware setup from the most recent E.O.L (end of life) product generation. You can try contacting tech support but you are probably wasting your time.

It's my understanding that the G-series motherboards are best suited for a non-overclocked home theater setup. Your motherboard's cpu vcore voltages were fine with both of your lower end E2xxx processors but for some reason your E5200 cpu wouldn't let you use much higher cpu vcore voltage settings even though you weren't using an extremely high setting. A P35 or P45 motherboard would probably work fine, but many older motherboards start to get iffy after they are about six or seven years old.

I checked the VID of the E2160 and E2200, apparently they are 1.325V and 1.265V respectively. Updated table follows:

1.250

BIOS

VID

IDLE

LOAD

E2160

1.236

1.325

1.296

1.280

E2200

1.236

1.265

1.232

1.216

E5200

1.236

1.150

1.120

1.104

So, apparently the board does not properly set the Vcore on ANY of the CPUs. (One of the reasons I am writing this is to not spread "false" information about the board being selective depending on CPU). The VID for the two Allendale chips are close to 1.250 which was what I set the board to, so I was fooled by that.

But, then, what do? This is the second reason I am writing this, for anyone that might find it interesting.

As I am extremely stubborn, I searched around for possible voltage modifications for the CPUs (I had done a BSEL mod back in the day with the E2160 and I thought I remembered there were also voltage pin mods). So, I was right! Of course such a prospect looks kind of messy especially after our earlier discussion about bent socket pins, etc. But I went ahead and did it.

So right now my [email protected] is running at 3.6GHz with a voltage of 1.325V nominal. Sensor values with OS running are 1.280V - 1.296V.

It was quite a process to get to this, which I kind of enjoyed. As doing a pin mod is a real hassle, I wanted to do it only once. So I needed to figure out at what voltage my E5200 ran best. Here, two programs proved handy: EasyTune6 and Memset.

What I did to check the CPU at higher frequencies was use these two programs. I booted up at a lower CPU frequency (lower BCLK) which allowed my computer to succesfully get into the OS with a voltage of 1.150V.

Then, using EasyTune6 I could set the target voltage I wanted to test and also the target frequency I wanted to test. However, there is a problem. The board has booted at a lower BCLK and the memory timings are tighter compared to what they should be at my target frequency, more relaxed. So before setting target frequency and voltage I had to run Memset to set the memory timings to the more relaxed values (I figured out the necessary relaxed values for a frequency by running Memset at that frequency, with a lower multiplier).

What followed were quite a few sessions of stability testing at various frequencies/voltages. I used OCCT and simultaneously FurMark to stress both CPU/GPU at the same time. I also did some benchmarking for each target frequency using PassMark PerformanceTest.

I decided to run the CPU at a Vcore of 1.325V. At that voltage, it passes OCCT/FurMark at 10.5*349=3.665GHz. Anything higher than that and the stability tests start failing. So I backed up to 10.5*343=3.602GHz. The E5200 passes stability tests even at Vcore=1.300V at this frequency.

About temperatures, the CPU peaks at 55-60 degrees Celsius with OCCT. My cooler is a CoolerMaster Hyper 212X. I also used IntelBurnTest (Linpack) and the processor peaked at 80 degrees at the Extreme setting, but remained stable. Maximum allowable temperature for the E5200 is 74 degrees but I presume my temperatures are safe since Linpack is an extremely stressing test and "normal" stress levels will be much more tolerable.

The board (and overall experiment) has proved a success. If I ignore the fact that it does not change Vcore, it has proved quite stable, at least compared to my previous AsRock board which maxed out at much lower settings (both using stock voltage). It was something like 3.0GHz for AsRock, 3.1GHz+ for Gigabyte. I got a 40%+ increase for my old system which had never been overclocked, pretty much breathed new life into it.

Any comments as to if I should pay attention to something or take care of something are welcome.

Re: Gigabyte G41M-Combo Vcore BIOS setting does not work

Nice!!

Higher end Gigabyte LGA775 motherboards often overvolt the Cpu Termination (aka VTT) and Cpu PLL bios settings with high overclocks when these settings are set to AUTO. I didn't see a Cpu PLL setting in your motherboard user manual. Higher Cpu Termination settings often help with system stability, but it's recommended that that VTT should be at least 0.05 volts lower than the Cpu Vcore setting. I don't know if ET6 displays the VTT voltage settings with your motherboard.

It would help others if you posted a screenshot that includes Memset and multiple Cpu-z screens for your 3.60GHz overclock.

I too have to prove that I'm not a robot each time I post in the forum.

Re: Gigabyte G41M-Combo Vcore BIOS setting does not work

Nice!!
Higher end Gigabyte LGA775 motherboards often overvolt the Cpu Termination (aka VTT) and Cpu PLL bios settings with high overclocks when these settings are set to AUTO.

I can confirm that this board behaves like this as well. I was about to post about my Vcore being set higher than my pin modded VID when Vcore is set to "Auto". I just did not understand why. I wish that they 'd at least document such features (or do they?). Only after reading your reply was the mystery solved but hey, I guess that's also a way to learn.

I figured the voltage increase depended on the base clock increase so to check and verify the Vcore "Auto" setting, I tried 266 which yielded a voltage of 1.400V and 333 which yielded a voltage of 1.450V. Obviously these values are based on my pin modded VID of 1.325V.

I honestly would like to see what Vcore values would be produced by "Auto" with my E5200 not pin modded at a stock VID of 1.150V. I think I did not try that configuration when I was doing my initial tests, that is overclock the CPU with Vcore set to "Auto". I was focused on setting a specific value which the board didn't do. I am indeed curious to find out what values "Auto" would yield, but I am not willing to reverse my pin mod for that, also removing and reinstalling the cooler is a hassle. I believe "Auto" would provide increased values but they would be much more coarse grained, in bigger steps. Also uncontrolled, which could probably mean higher than necessary (or lower than necessary, but with much less probability).

Obviously, taking the board's Vcore "Auto" behavior into account, there is a risk involved when pin modding a CPU for VID, especially if the mod is for a much higher value than stock. One could argue that using "Normal" is predictable and safe, but a CMOS clear or loading defaults will set Vcore to "Auto". If the mod is too high your CPU may get fried. In my case, voltage maxed out at 1.450V with a high overclock, as mentioned earlier.

So after all, concerning Vcore, the board does not correctly set specific Vcore settings, but does have a nice auto overvoltage feature when base frequency is increased from stock.

Originally Posted by profJim

I didn't see a Cpu PLL setting in your motherboard user manual. Higher Cpu Termination settings often help with system stability, but it's recommended that that VTT should be at least 0.05 volts lower than the Cpu Vcore setting. I don't know if ET6 displays the VTT voltage settings with your motherboard.

I believe that upon overclocking VTT is also increased accordingly when set to "Auto", but there is no corresponding sensor available to verify its actual value.

Another weird occurrence concerning "Auto": DIMM voltage setting. BIOS detects a 1.500V value, and this is the setting that is used when "Normal" is selected. Upon selecting "Auto" however, the voltage used is 1.600V regardless of overclocking. I believe this is within specs, it is just very unnecessary with 1.35V memory.

Re: Gigabyte G41M-Combo Vcore BIOS setting does not work

I don't recall if all of the voltage settings were set to AUTO, but Vcore, Cpu PLL and MCH Core were purposely set to AUTO.
CPU PLL is badly overvolted at 1.7500 volts, the highest recommend setting is less than 1.6 volts.
VTT (CPU Termination) is set higher than the CPU Core voltage.
CPU Vcore is close to optimal.
Dram Voltage is too high, but my DDR2 memory is rated for up to 2.20 - 2.30 volts if needed.
MCH Core = 1.30 volts is too high, with my 3.825GHz setup, AUTO sets MCH Core = 1.20 volts.

AUTO settings are often somewhat (or significantly) higher than necessary to help ensure that your system will boot.
As you can see from my ET6 screenshot, in some cases the AUTO setting is dangerous.

With my setup, all AUTO settings were stable from the 2.83GHz stock settings up to 3.20GHz, higher overclocks required additional bios tweaks.

I've included my stable 3.825GHz, 8GB of memory at 1080MHz full screenshot at the end of this post.

Manually set VTT to a higher value than the default 1.20 volt setting and retest your system for stability, but don't run IBT.You want the lowest VTT setting that is stable with your 3.60GHz overclock.

Re: Gigabyte G41M-Combo Vcore BIOS setting does not work

Wow awesome stuff there.

Honestly, it would drive me nuts having all those parameters available for tweaking.

I just had a OCCT/FurMark failure at 3.665GHz (349MHz) with my 1.325V pin mod. I thought that frequency was stable. At the moment I am retrying the test with a VTT=1.300, the next higher setting. This breaks your 0.050V difference rule, but I am trying it anyway. I am considering testing a Vcore of 1.350V with a VTT of 1.300V to see what it would give performance wise and temperature wise.

About ET6: I am probably asking the obvious, but what do the two columns "Power on" and "Target" indicate? I mean where do the values come from? I know that I can change a parameter on the "Target" column, press Set and change a setting at OS run time.

Another question: When you find your overclock's limits, the point that it starts to fail, do you back up frequency wise? If yes, what is your rationale/strategy for ensuring absolute stability?

Re: Gigabyte G41M-Combo Vcore BIOS setting does not work

Originally Posted by blacktruth

Wow awesome stuff there.

Yep, I'm just full of it, that is, awesome stuff. At least that's what I like to think when people say that I'm full of it.

From what I've seen, ET6's Power On column displays the default bios settings for each setting that allows adjustments and the Target column shows the applied voltage settings for each displayed setting.

When I reach an overclocking limit, I always "retreat" to a stable setting that is several hertz lower. For example, my memory is stable up to 1092MHz {455 x 2.4) with 5-5-5-15 settings and with Performance Enhance = Turbo. I don't like to run at the ragged edge of stability, especially when my hardware is almost 10 years old. With my setup, the difference in performance would be minimal with:

run LinX using 4096MB of memory for about 15 minutes as a preliminary stress test. I've seen many cases where LinX or IBT run with no errors, sometimes for a lot longer than my test, only to have the system get Prime95 errors even after Prime95 had no errors for several hours.

I run each of the three Prime95 tests (small FFT, large FFT and blend) for 8 - 12 hours and each test is run individually. In the good old days, each test had to run for at least 24 hours before we considered our systems stable. I'm not getting better, I'm getting older and I have lowered my test standards to an 8 hour or somewhat longer test for each of the Prime95 tests.

I run my overclocked graphics tests where I might run Furmark for about 30 minutes, but the majority of my gpu testing is with intensive GPU tests such as Unigine Heaven or Valley.

I haven't used OCCT in ages, but it does have some demanding stress test options.

I always have HWiNFO running at all times and if necessary, I will enable HWiNFO's sensor logging option during a stress test where the log file might help diagnose a temperature or voltage or other problem.

edit: Our former Gigabyte guru found that the Intel specs specified that VTT should be at least 0.05 volts lower than cpu vcore. While I respect his extensive knowledge and experience, I doubt that setting VTT somewhat closer to cpu vcore would be fatal. Keep in mind that we are often exceeding some of Intel's specs for our systems when we are applying very high overclocks. In the past I had several bios profiles where VTT was only 0.04 volts lower than cpu vcore for an extended period of time. I've seen several overclocks where VTT was set higher than cpu vcore but doing this might have shortened the life of their systems.

Re: Gigabyte G41M-Combo Vcore BIOS setting does not work

Originally Posted by profJim

When I reach an overclocking limit, I always "retreat" to a stable setting that is several hertz lower. For example, my memory is stable up to 1092MHz {455 x 2.4) with 5-5-5-15 settings and with Performance Enhance = Turbo. I don't like to run at the ragged edge of stability, especially when my hardware is almost 10 years old. With my setup, the difference in performance would be minimal with:

Indeed, meaning it has not failed a test yet. 3.602GHz (343MHz) is the frequency I "retreated" to after considering 3.655GHz (349MHz) stable. It seems our retreat tactic is similar as I retreated 6 vs 5 MHz, heh.

It seems however that 3.655GHz is not stable after all so I may be closer to the edge than I thought. Further testing is needed. At the moment running OCCT/Furmark at 3.655GHz but with a VTT of 1.300V. I am always talking about 1.325V of Vcore. It has clocked 2 hours and counting but we 'll see.

For sure I will be integrating your testing strategy as well. More testing never hurts. Well, perhaps IBT does, hehe.

About performance, I have not done a lot of rigorous testing, but it seems when the frequency is close to maxed out, that the gains are less than expected (normally linearly proportional gains depending on frequency). My 3.700-ish benchmark tests (with the system barely stable) were only slightly higher than 3.600-ish. This did not happen at lower frequencies, 3.300 was clearly better than 3.200. Perhaps some law of diminishing returns here, or some kind of internal errors that delay the system but it can recover from them. Perhaps it was just a bad performance test run, who knows.

I will most probably go into 1.350V territory and see what happens there, but most likely will not stay there long term. Will report any nice results.