Not you greg, how did you get that? I meant a Church (or a top head in the church) telling parishioners they can or can't do something, morally speaking.The church is still going through a lot of hypocrisy right now.

In the bone yard wrote:Not you greg, how did you get that? I meant a Church (or a top head in the church) telling parishioners they can or can't do something, morally speaking.The church is still going through a lot of hypocrisy right now.

Well, you started the post by referring to me, so I assumed the rest of the post...

If you that line of thinking seriously, you can have pornography and be celibate, because in your thinking "pornography is not sex". Can you see it?There are deeds of mind, speech and body. I think that pornography would fall in the category of deed of the mind, in the mind.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

Its just my opinion, although one shared by many others, that ultimately those who are really serious about the path will seek to *eventually* become chaste in thought, word and deed at least for a period of time in order to overcome sexual desire and lust. The benefits of this are recorded in many traditions throughout the world and it spans thousands of years of time, it has been said by many of the greatest sages this world has ever produced.

The best approach is to not develop any neurosis about it. Whatever you do, if you create more stress and suffering, that is not the path (in the Dharma). Although struggle might be required and so a brief period of internal war or stress might ensue, ultimately if one is ready for the practice of celibacy one will experience directly the cessation of attachment to sexual desire and the benefits of chastity will arise on their own.

Sexual activity of any kind is samsaric like everything else. As such it is ultimately unreal and unimportant. Any importance or value placed on it is placing importance and value on a samsaric activity. The only case where such value and importance is in line with the path to enlightenment is as skillful means in the various paths of using sex and desire as the path that many traditions offer. Otherwise its essence is suffering, its nature is endless, and it is a form of bondage and delusion.

If you are looking for a way to justify bringing yourself to orgasm this is equal to looking for a way to justify engaging samsara because of your desires. Whether the penis enters the vagina or not is irrelevant. If you think you need to masturbate and engage in mental fantasy you basically think you need to create mental and emotional obscurations and indulge them for your own pleasure. I fail to see how anyone can actually line this up with the Dharma regardless of what scripture says unless it is combined with skillful means.

If anyone thinks otherwise, I challenge them to try to remain chaste in thought, word and deed for even a week (not in isolation) and see what happens. Most people will experience effects that will show them that their minds are totally attached to this idea and these actions, and you will be able to see just how entangled in samsara we get when it comes to sex.

By not placing value on sex, we can enjoy it when it is available and not be attached to it when it is not. By not placing value on sexual activity, we can simply refrain from the pointless actions of masturbation. The only case where masturbation as indulgence is really in line with Dharma is when ones lust is so strong that one cannot focus for even a moment on ones practice. It is better to release that energy and then engage in meaningful practice than to try to practice while fantasizing and sick with desire.

I say all this as someone who has struggled with this issue for years and experienced both the benefits of chastity and the pitfalls of continuing with sexual activity of any kind. Ultimately all of samsara is a misappropriation of value onto something which is valueless and pointless. Its like making a cheap product but then calling it a luxury item and selling it in a store for the rich. People spend 600$ on an item that is usually worth 20$ because someone told them its valuable. The true wealth is freedom from samsaric entanglements. We can enjoy sensory input when it is combined with skillful means and wisdom. Otherwise, we are screwed

The key point is that the cause of sex addiction (and any other addiction too) is self-hatred. Specifically:

1. I am unlovable. I am different. If people really knew me they would hate me.2. If I shared myself with others, they would reject me.3. If I trust and rely on others, they will betray me.4. Therefore, due to this feeling of social isolation your addiction is the only way to meet your emotional needs.

Therefore, the cure of sex addiction is the following thought:

Please look at an image of Padmasambhava, or of your teacher, or of your yidam. I can assure you that you are loved unconditionally. I can absolutely promise you this. There is no mistake. Somewhere in this universe, you are loved unconditionally. What you must do is learn to gradually exchange your experience of broken love for this other love -- this unconditional love that is continually being offered to you by all the buddhas and bodhisattvas of the ten directions.-William Cassidy

A wonderful mediation that uses this idea in a variation on the one on page 88 of The Charisma Myth by Olivia Fox Cabane:

1. Relax2. Imagine your yidam/lama/etc in front of you3. Imagine their love and kindness for you4. See yourself through their eyes5. Feel the figure completely and unconditionally forgive and love you6. Rest with this feeling for at least 10 seconds

Use this mediation whenever you feel stressed, depressed, or angry at yourself.

With time one will find it easier to connect with other people and have less of a need for one's addiction.

Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

greentara wrote:jeeprs, "I am also averse to the suggestion that if you advocate a traditionalist view, then you are, therefore 'a slave to Christian morality', or are 'blaming or spreading guilt'. The fact that a discussion of the morality of pornography can't be had, without that accusation being made, says something"I agree with you totally. Secularism is the new religion, the net is flooded by porn so where's all this supposed guilt? Most people revel and celebrate sex unashamedly. It's everywhere, it saturates the media, people talk and joke about it constantly. As far as I can see there's not much guilt around at all.

I'm way late to the discussion, but this stuck out at me...people in Christian cultures usually don't show or admit guilt, much less being publicly contrite about anything they do, unless caught in the act. So it is 100% unsurprising that you can't "see guilt" surrounding sex in these cultures. Nonetheless, I think if you make even a basic, cursory analysis of sex and it's place in the lives of many in Christian cultures, there is a huge undercurrent of not only guilt, but all kinds of other things surrounding it, sex is connected at such a deep level to so much of how we see ourselves in relation to others, i'm not sure these simple answers do it for me.

In addition, I think it's very simplistic when talking about media to just chalk it up to "sex sells", sex sells not only because it's sex, but because sex itself is representational and connected to a whole bunch of other complicated neuroses and desires, plenty of which aren't actually related directly to sex. I remember going to strip clubs as a young man, one thing that is very interesting about these places is just how little what is going on is actually about sex, the pervasive feeling is loneliness, isolation, and people lacking a feeling of love, acceptance, or belonging..on both ends of the transaction, it's a fantasy of being "wanted", played out through sex.

It just seems like an awfully convenient answer (and I have to say, somewhat puritanical) to shake our fists as if "sex" is it's own thing, part of why sex is so powerful is because it is biological but also often deeply connected to a bunch of seemingly non-sexual stuff for us, so to me, the place to start if one wants to know what is right or wrong with sex in their lives is to try tracing that stuff within ourselves, rather than trying to set hard and fast rules about masturbation etc. Does anyone really need hard and fast (lol) rules about masturbation to figure out what's right or wrong?

Johnny, Spot on! "I remember going to strip clubs as a young man, one thing that is very interesting about these places is just how little what is going on is actually about sex, the pervasive feeling is loneliness, isolation, and people lacking a feeling of love, acceptance, or belonging..on both ends of the transaction, it's a fantasy of being "wanted", played out through sex" You're a reflective man. Unfortunately many keep repeating the same old repetitive fantasy and then feel isolated but don't know why. Why is life so pointless, so meaningless?To know why and when to stop is maturity....that is the spiritual journey.

Engaging in SIE is socially acceptable. Perfectly normal. And if it's socially acceptable then what could be wrong with it?

Several weeks ago while at work this subject came up, and it was agreed that we are human and it is a biological need...it was impossible for anyone to avoid doing it. I asked if the saints from the bible had done it. I just wanted to see where they were spiritually on the topic. After it was confirmed that they had, I asked if Jesus had ever done it. The answer after a short pause was, "Yea of course!" Joining in on the debate was a 'registered' minister belonging to a church. He has one of those licenses that verify one as being a licensed minister. Been married 20 years.

After that ran its course I asked them what the moral requirements were to become a saint from the bible, or to be declared a saint by today's standard. The answer didn't have an impact on me or I would have remembered it, and telling them what it meant to be a buddhist saint would have been a waste of time.

There are people in this world who believe it's impossible not to engage in SIE. What if it weren't socially acceptable? What if it was considered shameful like it used to be? Would it be possible then?

But if there are people who are bothered by it then there has to be something to it. I'm reminded of when I was young and struggling with being a strict Catholic. I thought it was unfair that I had to abide by all these rules and others were living seemingly free and unaffected. I knew I could never be free without being unhappy. I didn't think this was fair and I questioned it deeply for years. Were these people going to heaven when they died and where did that leave me?

It is said in the tantras that desire closes to the door to virtue. Virtue brings joy. Mahayana sutras state that joy arises when we care more about others than ourselves.

I. 1, 1-2; III.111 wrote:But do you, reverend Seyyasaka, eat alms with the very same hand as that which you use to emit semen?""Yes your reverences," he said.Those who were modest monks became annoyed, vexed and angry, saying:"How can the venerable Seyyasaka emit semen in this way?"

Hello, everyone here.Hare Krishna!

Can anyone help me with this masturbation sin?Let me tell few words about me:I was born on west, but somehow got to India. There got acquainted with few buddhists,I practiced even Vipassana of Goenka.However, somehow this happened so that I studied with one girl, she liked buddhists and Krishna both,and we did yoga together, meditation together etc.And it was so ... I mean to say "cool" that I had such a girlfriend that, when some guy said "If you want to learn language better find a girlfriend" I even dared to ask to kiss her.It is a hard story to tell, but I have to tell you.When I was a child, somehow one man near our house told me: "hello boy! can you help me?"So I said: yes!Then we came inside our house (we live in house with many flats, many floors),and rose to one floor. Then went to some balcony / stairway (well, it was inside of course, I think nobody else saw it, though God saw it I am sure so I want that God punish this maniac pedophile who molested me),and there he ... even took off my dress, pants you know - it was very fast, and even ... it was "oral sex" or better say -oral violence over my genital / penis - he took it into his mouth... you know. I was scared and shocked!He first said that "boy can you help me" - but then he took my p*nis into his mouth - and - then I need help!He told that - "boy, I'll give you a toy - just wait" - he went somewhere and I just ran away!so... I told mother - she saw that my p*nis is aching. she putted it into some "herbal liquid" etc etc...But worst is - I think this man infected my p*nis genital with his herpes...you know...I couldn't tell it to anyone.so... when I was with that girl - we were in some park, I think - near Buddha... yes, it is India - some there are Buddha statues/deities. No it was in park, not temple of course so not severe...So I just told her - probably I thought about movie Matrix that there was Neo and Trinity (like wife and husband),but some Persephone asked Neo - "let me kiss you!", Trinity didn't like it...So... anyway, Persephone kissed Neo - "just to know how sweet it is, is it real"...She answered after kiss: "I envy you, Trinity for your Neo, but know - it is not for a long time"...well, maybe it is really what is in movies - actors kiss, but that's not forever... they are not even husband/wife...So, I kept in mind that I was "raped" by that man, he took my genital into his mouth...well, when I was with that girl together, I even thought about masturbation...So, when we were together i asked - "Can I kiss you, you know I never had a girlfriend"...I told here for a long time - may be few hours we sat near Buddha (I think it was Buddha nearby),so she answered: "just a kiss? so what is a problem? ok!".And I kissed her in lips, she used her tongue even...Then I caught myself that I even wanted sex with her but well, I said - "no I can't do it!",I touched her breast... you know - it was in park so people could see - I was afraid!but maybe because this happened to me - that pedophile maniac" raped" me - it was also outside - so I did it with this girlfirend - a kiss - "to neutralize" that pedohpile...But of course I think it is also a sin now...Let me tell you more... I got in touch with Hare Krishnas, and got even initiation from them.I am sure that Buddha is avatara of Vishnu, so I like Buddha also.Probably of course that this girlfriend influenced me - so that I am interested in Krishna and Buddha both...She however told me: "it is not love! I have another boyfriend. You are younger than me. You'll find another girl - don't worry"... We even were on some marriage ceremony together - saw what is marriage - with her.Well, so... yes, she also smoked a little even...But what I want to say...I continued study. I was on one philosophy class in university.And teacher told me: "main feature of Indian philosophy is eroticism"...you know... I didn't like that - I replied - "no! that is imitation! that is sahajiya"...You know, in vaishnavism there is "sahajiya" apasampradaya - and people in it - they have illicit sex etc, and now I even know - they do masturbation also -to imitate others - but they have wrong object of imitation - they imitate not even saints/holy people, but they imitate some atheists, who are like monkeys...So, when I was so much under influence of these words - "main feature of Indian philosophy is eroticism" -I had so many thoughts in my mind...I knew that Krishna is known as "transcendental Kamadev" (Cupid/Erot),so ... you know, for me it was kind of offence to say that Krishna, my object of worship - that he is just Erot/sex...So I again had some sexual fantasies, and this time I talked to one girl on internet site to meet people of opposite sex to marry...She told me... some bad things also - that "if you want to marry - marry now! go take prostitute." I said - "no no! it is too low! how can I?..."but she also said - "be brahmacari"...So I said - yes, I'ld like to... so I told her this story that I was victim of that maniac pedophile,and all that... she came out to be also a girl who was victim of some man who raped her and she got pregnant from him, but he was not her husband, and she doesn't know who was father of a child. And she suffers that she has no husband, though she is around 35 - elder than me several years.I also am not married.She told me - "if you have no money - forget it! be brahmacari"...so it is a problem... you know if I go out on the street - I meet people often who are smoking.I live in big city. So there can be 10,20,30 smokers within just half an hour if you walk somewhere near my house or go on some street - not even big one... Or well, at least problem is that even if there is just one smoker - still smell is so bad that wind (and god of Wind) is helping to move that poisonous smell, and I feel bad...I even tried to print some text - "Tobacco was grown from some demon! if you smoke - you'll go to hell! Buddha Padmasambhava told to never smoke" etc.well, maybe I so much take care of it because my girlfriend smoke... though not much, a little.after her kiss I felt some hot feeling in mouth - I don't know - because she smoke or for other reason?So, even once at night I was going out and posting "ads" - "stop smoking - Buddha hate smokers!",and some people were "protecting" some shops which sell tobacco/meat/alcohol etc (you know they work whole might - security in big cities), and we had a little fight =-)I told him - "don't beat me!". He told me: "hey why you run away? I'll beat you!"I told him - "if you beat me - you'll go to hell!"he said : "hey! who the hell are you? in which sect?"I told : "I am a little buddhist. Like shaolin monk"...he said - " you don't look like buddhist."I told: "but you also. you protect smoking, you protect alcohol, you protect market where cows are killed. and you know for that people go to hell. so you'll go to hell if you also protect violence. Buddha told to be nonviolent".He got crazy! he started beating me!he said: "I will brake your legs if you 'll come here again!"I cried: "no! If you'll do that - you'll go to hell - and hundreds of your relatives and friends who are same demons like - who are same atheists and who also protect tobacco, alcohol, cow/anima/people-killing - they will all go to hell for many lifetimes!"he was crazy and was beating me!I started to chant protective mantras: "Om! Vishnu! Sharangam astraya phat! Oh holy bow of Lord Rama - kill this demon!Oh holy sudarshana chakra - kill these smokers, tobacco sellers, tobacco growers, alcohol producers, these animal killers! You are against God - and you force us to smell this poisonous tobacco - but you are killing yourselves and us!Even passive breathing of smoke kills millions of souls!"So I chanted some mantras aloud - so that holy weapons of Lord Vishnu / Lord Buddha / Lord Rama / Lord Narayana / Lord Krishna / Lord Narasimha etc - to kill such demons...But I don't know if this will help...He was shocked. He beated me. He told - "should I give you my penis to suck"? etc...you see what demons are they? and they are working on markets - sell meat, tobacco, alcohol...so, I had my leg a bit beaten. I realized - well, I can't live like this...

Though I think that maybe my over sensitive sensation about tobacco is because of masturbation.I've read that to loose one drop of semen - is like loosing around 80 drops of blood.So if blood is required to protect oneself/aura from smoke like tobacco etc -instead - it is wasted on semen, and body becomes unprotected from tobacco and other bad smells......I'm trying now to fight with masturbation.Unfortunately because that girl told me "go find prostitute" I got to some internet sites which give access to sites like "free chat online while masturbation online on webcam" etc... and that is addictive...I thought I can preach there, but that is useless... some people some there - they have cross of Jesus on their neck - but they are masturbating etc...I installed some porno filter - PoliceWeb - and they block sites with porn, but still I sometimes it turn off and still go there...so should I marry? but ... whom?and how to meditate instead of masturbation properly?...well, I searched on internet - about masturbation - how to give it up...I found buddhist site - http://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=249and they still say - though Buddha was against onanism,still - "onanism is not so bad"......so please help me to find out what actually Buddha said. it is said on those site - ============="Masturbation (sukkavissaṭṭhi) is the act of stimulating one’s own sexual organs (sambādha) to the stage of orgasm (adhikavega). In the Kāma Sūtra male masturbation is called ‘seizing the lion’ (simhākāranta).

Some people during the Buddha’s time believed that masturbation could have a therapeutic effect on the mind and the body (Vin.III,109), although the Buddha disagreed with this. According to the Vinaya, it is an offence of some seriousness for monks or nuns to masturbate (Vin.III,111)

although the Buddha gave no guidance on this matter to lay people. However, Buddhism could agree with contemporary medical opinion that masturbation is a normal expression of the sexual drive and is physically and psychologically harmless, as long as it does not become a preoccupation or a substitute for ordinary sexual relations. Guilt and self-disgust about masturbating is certainly more harmful than masturbation itself. - "========

so I searched on internet about Vinaya, what it tells about masturbation - and could not find original story - what is actually said there? and what are techniques to stop masturbation? how to become proper brahmachari?

I find it contradictory that some people say "onanism is not so bad, it is normal",though myself I feel it is a sin, or I can even say - "onanism is lust and leads to hell".so I want to get rid of this sin with "weapon of yoga" somehow, but have no idea how to...

I'ld like to get quotes from scriptures which say definitely that onanism is sin etc etc and how to defeat onanism.unfortunately I did often since school (after that even with maniac), so it became kind of passion/habit.I didn't think I will be in any religion, didn't take it seriously...no I see it is serious, sinful... I want to give it up...

it is best if there are some special mantras for that, some prayers, or some manuals.and some sanskrit etc original quotes to defeat onanism.

and what is this:

I. 1, 1-2; III.111 wrote:But do you, reverend Seyyasaka, eat alms with the very same hand as that which you use to emit semen?""Yes your reverences," he said.Those who were modest monks became annoyed, vexed and angry, saying:"How can the venerable Seyyasaka emit semen in this way?"

how should we understand these? where is a full story?I want that to be accessible online...I read in one book - doctor is atheist, but still he says right - "there are not enough books which say that onanism is a sin - that's why people find books where it is said that onanism is ok, normal, not sin"

and so it is a problem...I want to find those books where definitely is said how sinful is onanism. here on buddhist site - what Buddha and buddhists say - on how to defeat onanism, how sinful it is etc.

I know from Bible that "to look with lust on woman - is illicit sex" etc. it is a sin...all right. I never was much in religion - I never thought much of that. Now I accept it - ok - I will not look on women with (or even without) lust, so try not to commit sin of hellish masturbation/onanism......

thank you in advanceP.S. to moderator of forum: if this is to be put into another branch - please repost/move into appropriate forum/its branch... thanks

Hare Krishna...oh sorry. Om Mani padme hum =-) (by the way I saw that Dalai Lama was in ISKCON and bowed down before Hare Krishna's His Divine Grace A.CBhaktivedanta Prabhupada. that's inspiration for me )

Buddhism doesn't have sin, and doesn't have God (it has devas who aren't able to be moral enforcers). How skilful and not skilful work in Buddhism is simple: you act by desire, you give rise to attachment. You then will want something you don't have, or not want something you do have, and you suffer.

As for hell, I'm pretty sure masturbation isn't said to lead to hell (that's usually intended for predominantly angry/hateful deeds), but if you are sexually attracted to yourself, I recall Berzin saying you'll be reborn as a fly who enjoys eating faeces and flying around urinals (those are the most annoying). Of course, I can see masturbation as leading to rebirth as an animal of various sorts, or a ghost.

Of course, for lay people only the Pali texts don't define sexual misconduct as including masturbation. The Upāsakaśīla Sūtra does however, which is available in Chinese. That being said, you can only uphold the precept you know about, and usually it's not defined in the precept bestowal ceremony. How to stop? Same way as anything else in Buddhism.

And by the way, Krishna certainly is more erotic that people like ISKON will admit (just see Kumarasambhava for instance), and when you worship him, you worship a penis (lingam) whether you like it or not.

Wow this forum is filled with a bunch of Christians, your obsessions are so weird to me (jewish background, sex is regarded as perfectly normal and desirable)...

Now as for porn and other sex addictions this for sure is a male problem. Because every day in my neighborhood I see half-naked guys in tiny shorts baring their washboard stomachs, showing off their firm buttocks and toned legs and I'm fine. wait, I'm a lesbian! Well the heterosexual ladies manage to restrain themselves just fine and go about their business and I do too. For addictions you need to see an analyst and work through your problem, repressing it won't help.

Anyway I manage to read romance novels (women like them) with explicit scenes and I enjoy them and then I put them down and go back to work, studying, dating, practicing the Dharma....like a million other women.

Sex is not bad of itself, its simply that lust and desire disturb the mind. Anyone who thinks about the subject deeply has to admit that the mind is affected.. To gloss over the issue with ideas that sound free wheeling and breezy does not address the underlying issue and seems to lack any sort of serious reflection.I have also read and watched trash movies and books but realise they are not conducive to meditation and stilling the mind. Heartfelt devotion to a teacher or teaching is a great help.

1. Yes, sex comes with feeling, or even arises on feeling. Nature made it like that.2. If sex is done, the feeling subsides, instantly. Nature made it like that. You do not even need to meditate to get rid of it. Instant liberation.3. You do not need to create an artificial emotion from that. That´s what Porn does, so to speak. It keeps you artificially in a state of arousal for an unusually long period of time, and in that time there even can be conditioning of the mind, dependent on that state of arousal. That´s what Porn does also, in which case it is bad, because it conditions a dependency for continually increased stimuli to achieve the same. So it alters the normal bodily function. 4. Tantric people also found that out that this "energy" can be used, but there the conditioning is used a tad different ...

So yes, that permanent everyday arousal is sort of bad, and extensive porn consumption on top sure doesn´t make it better. And the subtle levels of advertising sexual ideals in every day media as the norm are probably even worse.

But as little as one has to create an artificial emotion out of a mere feeling that arises in the body during sex, or upon spotting a "potential partner", as little is it necessary to create an emotional story of aversion of that feeling arising and becoming puritan. I cannot see how both would hardly be beneficial to liberation.

So the problem is not arousal (bodily sensation). The problem is creating stories on it. So if there are two arousals, and there is consent, so why not. Then there is not more to that. If there is arousal, but there is attachment or aversion, then better let the defilements subside or problems will come.

Otherwise one could just as well say "eating is not good for the mind."

greentara wrote:Sex is not bad of itself, its simply that lust and desire disturb the mind. Anyone who thinks about the subject deeply has to admit that the mind is affected.. To gloss over the issue with ideas that sound free wheeling and breezy does not address the underlying issue and seems to lack any sort of serious reflection.I have also read and watched trash movies and books but realise they are not conducive to meditation and stilling the mind. Heartfelt devotion to a teacher or teaching is a great help.

I have thought about the subject.I have possibly thought about it 'deeply '.My mind is not affected negatively by sex.I cannot speak for you.You do not speak for me.

If masturbation led to an inferior birth then there wouldn't be many humans left. Everyone masturbates at some point in their life after pubity. And why not?

We never see sexuality as a form if intelligence. I wonder why?

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.