Posted: Sun 18 Feb 2007, 04:06 Post subject:
Puppy 2.15CE "Viz" - Development Ideas/RequestsSubject description: This is the place to say what you want in YOUR community edition.

Here is where you should post all of those great ideas you would like to see included in a user-friendly, reliable and easy to install Community Edition of Puppy 2.14 - Have your say in the poll about the project name, too!

If possible I believe we should use Firefox - most members prefer that (from previous editions and just comments)
. . . but we have another option now - use HV3 as the default browser and open the table on the base of this page (just remove the "" top and bottom") as default . . .
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/CommunityEdition . . . then people have a browser to start with and can download Opera or Firefox or Flock or . . . as an extra . . .

Dillo compared to hv3 I believe is too underpowered and out of date with poor rendering (IMO)

Window managers are important. JWM is about 150K - so that is OK. I would vote for Xfce (for gorgeousness) or IceWm for reliability. For about 3 Meg we could have all three. Just cut back on wallpapers. Perhaps with a link to further downloads . . .

Geany seems as fast and usable as leafpad (a previous CE default text editor) so my vote is for Geany and leafpad second.

Codecs yes? Java - probably not

If we can get just Open Office Write that would be good or again an easy download. A lot of people want or need Office (probably the WP component mostly)

Hope that is a help _________________Puppy WIKILast edited by Lobster on Wed 21 Feb 2007, 01:23; edited 1 time in total

If possible I believe we should use Firefox - most members prefer that (from previous editions and just comments)
. . .

Yes, mate. It all helps. Have you had a chance to look at the new Seamonkey compiled with Firefox code yet? I believe it is in 2.14 Final but I haven't had a chance to look. Otherwise I agree that Firefox is the most popular option, so long as we don't suffer the Flash 9 / Java crashing bug that has plagued Mozilla products since its release.

I haven't tried HV3 yet, so I'll have a look at that ASAP.

I had a look at the final size of Puppy 2.03CE - 180Mb, which seems small considering all it contained. We're going to have to be very careful about content if we are to come in anywhere near that! I'd suggest if we set an upper limit of 200Mb we'll be doing great to get there!!! What do you think?

I've compiled this somewhat long list of what my puppy will look like along with things I need to do in order to make it function the way I want. Perhaps some of my ideas will be useful to you for the community edition.

Despite the fact that some people are against cloning the way windows works, I'd like the more common shortcuts and tasks to operate similar by default with a gui to change preferences/options in my own personal puppy. My reasoning is I've become accustomed to doing things a certain way after several years of daily use so I'd like my puppy to default to working that same way.

Have you had a chance to look at the new Seamonkey compiled with Firefox code yet? I believe it is in 2.14 Final but I haven't had a chance to look.

2.14 Final uses 1.06
the Alpha used the Firefox version (I preferred it because of the spell checker - other than that it was very much Seamonkey (you would not know it had FireFox code)

Quote:

Otherwise I agree that Firefox is the most popular option, so long as we don't suffer the Flash 9 / Java crashing bug that has plagued Mozilla products since its release.

There is Swiftfox (you have to download for your processor) and FasterFox (that might be an option) . . .
There are problems with Flash 9 yes. My recommendation would still be latest stable Firefox with Flash 9
Flash gives you a lot.

I would suggest Java as an add on.

Quote:

I haven't tried HV3 yet, so I'll have a look at that ASAP.

Think what community members want NOW (the future users will be catered for in future releases) Most people want their browser to be Firefox (number one choice) or Opera number two.
Most people if running either of these do not say I must change to SeaMonkey.

With Firefox should perhaps come Thunderbird or Sylpheed as default as many community members use an email client. I personally use Gmail but that is not the community preference I should imagine . . . ?

2.03CE is a very stable translation of Hacao Pup from the Vietnamese. It is 2.03 with Open Office. It was very well received._________________Puppy WIKI

I prefer firefox because it's FOSS although opera is a great browser as well.

I've read posts about Flash 9 / Java crashing firefox and vaguely recall seeing a post on the mozilla dev list about an existing issue that was patched but haven't experienced problems with it myself.

However, to control non HTML plugin abuse, I'm using the extensions noscript (to whitelist which sites are allowed to run java/javascripts) and flashblock (takes a pessimistic approach to Flash content and blocks ALL Flash content but leaves 'play buttons' on the webpage that allow you to click to view the Flash content).

I always update to the most current official firefox build because usually updates fix bugs. (currently 2.0.0.1)

I can confirm from a lot of personal testing that flash 9 does indeed crash Firefox. However, it also crashes Seamonkey. My best guess is that the Mozilla code is not to blame, but rather what you are getting from Adobe. Also the newer Flash version is @ three times as large as the old one. All in all my recommendation would be to ship with Flash 7 if you are going to deliver it with Flash at all, and provide an easy way to install the newer version if a user decides they must. Actually, Firefox is more than happy to do it for you if you allow it.

Basically, if a user wants to see browser crashing let that be their decision, not the default put in place by the community.

I think also it has been well established that if you go on popularity alone Firefox is the clear choice. So I say use Firefox.

I'm personally kind of skeptical about shooting for 200MB. I think that's way too large. For 109CE we managed to do a lot of upgrading and still kept it to the size of a standard Puppy. Nevertheless I recognize that there is a lot of pressure from the community to include this app or that app, so if it grows it grows. Just don't forget about those who have less well endowed computers. A 200MB iso would only run on one of the computers I own. For a lot of people that number would be one less.

On that note, using any part of OpenOffice is probably not, in my opinion, a good idea. I don't think everyone will agree with that statement but I want to go on record for saying it. At the same time, I might be willing to try my hand at cutting the suite down to just the Word component if you guys are nice.

So far as WM's go I vote for IceWM but with jwm retained as an alternate choice. It's so small it hardly affects the final size anyway. But IceWM has been proven time and again to be about the most stable there is, and is a good chameleon.

A couple things I would like to see are some good GTK themes. There are at least four of us who have done a lot of work on that. Dougal has a huge collection of themes available if my memory serves. MU created a rather nice theme switcher, and both Pizzasgood and myself have incorporated upgraded themes and engines into our latest offerings. I personally like my theme switcher as it can also control fonts and icon themes, but other than that MU's switcher is more advanced.

Speaking of icons I think it would be good to present, as a community, a Puppy that finally comes with a completely unified icon theme. Many of us were pushing for it in 109CE but never managed to come to a decision. Why not do so now?

I would also like to propose something a bit more radical in that we take steps toward making Puppy multi-user. I have that essentially working in Grafpup now and the code should port back to Puppy rather well, although there is a lot of work involved in getting it right.

I second everything Nathan said. Between Abiword and Gnumeric, you can handle most of what you'd use OO for, and they run better, look better, and fit better. The biggest weakness would be a lack of support for PowerPoint. I never use it myself, so I don't know much about what programs can handle it. Puppy has survived this long without it though. Aren't there websites that can convert them to PDF or something?

Size-wise, I'd put the maximum size at 100MB, and shoot for 70-85. Gotta remember the dialup users and low-ram machines. As the pup_xxx.sfs file gets bigger, Puppy needs more ram to load it. That means less free ram for working in. If you have a 78 MB pup_xxx.sfs file and 128 MB of ram, that gives you 50 MB free, minus a little for the initrd.gz file. Puppy's built in apps would probably run okay, because they're already loaded into ram, but you wouldn't have much space for data or after-market apps if you make Puppy any bigger.

Multi-user would be excellent. Sure, it isn't needed for most of us, but there are occasional cases when true multi-user would be handy. As an added bonus, it would help our credibility. I'd never do something just to please the paranoid/ignorant, but in this case their pleasure would be a side effect, because the multi-user would be good for some circumstances. The first one that comes to mind is children, so you don't have to strip out half of Puppy to keep them from borking something in their own setup._________________Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib

I suggest using 2.14CE (or 2.15CE as barry suggests) as an oportunity to clean up things that barry does not have time or appetite for.

I propose no fundamental changes (such as multiuser or browser change) as they tend to clash with Barry's plans, specially now that he will be playing with the build scripts.

Here is what I have in my personal list of things to do:

- Cleanup the XDG menus categorization: Barry recategorized the .desktops and oversimplified the categories. I've offered to clean it up to allow for alternative menu structures.

- Provide alternative menu structures: I already have a couple alternatives for different tastes and brain maps.

- New Network Wizard UI: As I've pointed out before, using gtkdialog is a pain. I think that I've taken it as far as it should be taken, so to be able to cleanly add more functionality to the wizard I am redesigning and simplifying the interface with a decent toolkit.

- Add other WPA encryption to the wizard: Add other common encryption mechanisms for WPA. Currently it only supports PSK/TKIP

- Use the new UI toolkit to clean UI: I have some examples in mind that I will start uploading later today. (don't worry, you'll like them)

- Fix the universal installer: That is one of the few recurring reports on the forum, that the universal installer failed or was too complicated. I just freed-up an computer at home to be able to test it without worrying about loosing data.

- An appearence manager: This is BIG project and something that if we pull together as a community may have a big impact on puppy likeability. The idea is not to throw away what we already have but consolidate it under a single simple UI. Actually instead of a BigBang approach I would suggest integrate the different parts "as is" and start migrating them to the new UI. My estimate is that it will take 3 puppy releases (4 months) to get them all in:
- Set screen resolution
- Set Background **
- Set Cursor theme **
- Set GTK theme **
- Set Window manager **
- Set WM theme **
- Set custom WM configurations (for the selected WM)

(** Allow downloading some samples from a dedicated site + instructions to use items downloaded from somewhere else.)

So the idea would be to have a very light and clean live CD with the option for easy customization if desired.

Idealy we could have an addon working similar to the zdrv file that can be downloaded independently or included in the "bloated" version without affecting the portion of Puppy that loads to RAM.

After evaluating many different toolkits I've settled with gnocl as the UI toolkit for tcl development.
- It is 125 Kb compressed.
- It is GTK 2.0 compliant so it follows any GTK2 theme.
- It has a simple widget set.
- It is well documented.

This list is not exahustive but I think it is a good start.

For all the people that would like to join, that know how to program UIs but that aren't familiar with tcl or gnocl I can surely help.

Please come forward, this list has way more than I can chew in a single bite.

I third everything Nathan and Pizza said---and add my own 2 pieces of wampum here that IF you include Firefox then you may want to forego using an email client like Sylpheed and instead use Thunderbird. While the combined megatonnage weight of the two together equal out more than the SeaMonkey Suite---it's the fact that the name "Firefox" is so well-known and so wide-spread that people have come to sort of "expect it" in a Linux distro today.

My vote goes for Thunderbird then in this area because it's such a full-featured email client, capable of everything from text-based to HTML-formatted email, business-based email (for like newsletters and such), grandma (and myself too!) who like to send "artsy stationery" to the kiddos, the client has a plethora of themes so it can fit in with almost any Puppy theme you choose, plus it has fabulous extensions to boot!

As for the Window Managers, obviously being partial to IceWM (introduced to me by Nathan's Grafpup---thanks Nathan!), I'll go along with that whole-heartedly! But choice IS nice and a backup window manager is always good to have, which is where for its small size JWM likewise gets my vote, for its ease of operability and out-right functionality.

Rarsa - I'm more than willing to put some effort into learning gnocl based on your recommendation. I agree that gtkdialog is a pain, and there are still some things that I feel it can't accomplish. I'm quite glad to hear though that gnocl is gtk based, as it is important to me to try and keep the ui looking well integrated. So count me in, but give me some time to get up to speed. Is there somewhere I can grab any required binaries, source, or whatever it would take to get started?

I would add to the list you propose for the appearance manager fonts and icon themes, although Puppy does not come by default with a real icon theme they can be installed separately and change the look of gtk2 apps quite effectively. Fonts are always an issue, especially when you have users who are using different screen resolutions. I created my own little gtk theme selector for Grafpup that controls widget theme, icon theme, and font settings for gtk2 apps. I think it appropriate to include those settings there.

Eyes-Only - I understand the allure of Thunderbird, but I'd like to put forward a different suggestion. Claws-mail, which is a fork of Sylpheed (formerly Sylpheed-claws) has come along to the point where I think it's a worthy contender to Thunderbird in a lot of ways. Especially considering the fact that it is quite a bit lighter. The drawback is that as of this moment there is no package for Puppy, but I can easily fix that.

Can someone format the wiki page whilst I do a pawedcast?
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/CommunityEdition

Can we get a Beta before the end of Feb (that is 8 days or so)?
Can we have a pic of V (or Vincent) from Barry for our mascot?
Can we use the offline english version of Olis manual?
http://www.puppy-linux.info/en/manual/puppy214/main.html

and maybe can we have the name 2.15CE? - so Barry would move straight to 2.16 - that means we gotta do good guys . . .

I suggest using 2.14CE (or 2.15CE as barry suggests) as an oportunity to clean up things that barry does not have time or appetite for.

For those who thought they may have missed something, here is Barry's post, quoted in part from Developer News:

BarryK wrote:

I propose that 2.15 be a "consolidation" release, especially to include the excellent work that Dougal and Rarsa have been doing with various scripts. In fact, instead of doing a 2.14CE, why not make it a 2.15CE and I'll host it on ibiblio, as well as all the required PET packages?

In other words, Dougal, Rarsa, Lobster, and anyone else who wants to be in it, get together and make 2.15 "your" release.

We won't get a better offer than that from our lead developer, so as Project Leader I am changing our Community Edition project to 2.15CE as of now.

Lobster has preemptively chosen the name for the project as "Viz" - an abbreviation meaning "namely" or "specifically". Rather than waste any time with relatively inconsequential matters, I'm happy to run with that if you guys are.

Please visit the project wiki page, linked from the first message of this thread, and let me know if there is anything missing from our project todo list.

I'm personally kind of skeptical about shooting for 200MB. I think that's way too large. For 109CE we managed to do a lot of upgrading and still kept it to the size of a standard Puppy. Nevertheless I recognize that there is a lot of pressure from the community to include this app or that app, so if it grows it grows. Just don't forget about those who have less well endowed computers. A 200MB iso would only run on one of the computers I own. For a lot of people that number would be one less.

On that note, using any part of OpenOffice is probably not, in my opinion, a good idea. I don't think everyone will agree with that statement but I want to go on record for saying it. At the same time, I might be willing to try my hand at cutting the suite down to just the Word component if you guys are nice.

If you could stretch it to both Word and Calc I'll be EXTRA nice! Hacao's 2.03CE included the full Open Office suite in 189Mb. That just fits onto a 256Mb USB stick, with room for saved settings and some data. That's why I set the 200Mb limit. If we can do it in less then I'll be a very happy camper!

I know that Abiword and Gnumeric will do the job, but that won't be the perception from our target audience. They will want a competitor for MS Office if coming from Windows and Open Office/KDE Office if coming from a more bloated distro. They might be prepared to do without Powerpoint, but not the other two.

Nathan F wrote:

A couple things I would like to see are some good GTK themes. There are at least four of us who have done a lot of work on that. Dougal has a huge collection of themes available if my memory serves. MU created a rather nice theme switcher, and both Pizzasgood and myself have incorporated upgraded themes and engines into our latest offerings. I personally like my theme switcher as it can also control fonts and icon themes, but other than that MU's switcher is more advanced.

I had already determined to include MU's GTK Theme Switcher, but if you feel your version will appeal to more users, it's worth considering too. I had planned to ship with Linsta theme as default.

Nathan F wrote:

Speaking of icons I think it would be good to present, as a community, a Puppy that finally comes with a completely unified icon theme. Many of us were pushing for it in 109CE but never managed to come to a decision. Why not do so now?

Agreed. I have a collection that I have uploaded to MU's mirror as SuperGPLIconThemePak. It's 18Mb but that can be cut down significantly. Maybe you could cast a designer's critical eye over the offerings therein and return with a reduced set that suits the new image?

Nathan F wrote:

I would also like to propose something a bit more radical in that we take steps toward making Puppy multi-user. I have that essentially working in Grafpup now and the code should port back to Puppy rather well, although there is a lot of work involved in getting it right.

I would love to include multi-user capability - as an option - to please those who are more paranoid about security. There are many of them coming from the MS environment that just won't feel comfortable without that Linus-blanket (pun intended).

I don't want the 2.15CE version to be overloaded with bells and whistles. That's not what Puppy is about. Instead I'd like it to be light, stable, complete in terms of functionality and easy to use. That means GUI dialogs, wizards, help at every turn, but most of all a welcoming "face" to greet new users. Thanks for your input, Nathan. Let's knock their sox off!

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