i'm sure what you meant to say is that the market should set interest rates.

one of the reasons they left them high in the carter years is that we did have deflation.... or at least that was what they were worried about. remember also that we did not have the same import/export ratios then, as we have now. higher interest and tighter money kept the dollar strong. right now we have a weak dollar which contributes to higher oil prices and higher prices on all that we import. the dollar is the default world currency. oil is traded in dollars. raising interest rates a point or two would strengthen the dollar and lower some of those costs. also, the treasury is printing money. this again weakens the dollar.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

Hate to burst your bubble, but anyone will invest at 4% if the next best they can get is 2%, no matter what the inflation rate is. At least that way they can cut their loss from 13% to 9%.

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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

Milk here is 3.63 a gallon,no reduction in recent times,cheapest chicken,.99 per lb. no reduction, perhaps the government is subsidzing Mi voters?

99 cents per pound of chicken. Isn't that pretty low? What was it 10 years ago? 10 cents? Not that I can remember!

I'm not disputing that we have have inflation, the Fed says we do, the CPI numbers say we do. What I am disputing is that we don't have high inflation as would be suggested by gas prices. Prices normally DO go up over time. However some havent' been. In aggregate prices are slowly rising.

one of the reasons they left them high in the carter years is that we did have deflation

You’re claiming “deflation” during the Carter years and BuzzBee is claiming high inflation. You can’t both be right! I’m going to have to go with BuzzBee on this one.

As for the Fed setting interest rates, if you read you own links, you will see that the Fed sets the interest rates on OVERNIGHT loans! That is far cry from a 10 year loan! The longer term rates are set by the free market. We have capitalism, not communism here. Free markets set prices, not the government.

As to iddees point, where investors settling for a 4% return on loaned money back in 1981 when inflation was 13%? You tell me?

one of the reasons they left them high in the carter years is that we did have deflation.... or at least that was what they were worried about.

i think what they called was "stagflation" :-) yes there was price inflation much of that due to the interest rates that were raise by volker. the other component was the oil crisis. the market does not control interest rates. if it did, they'd be higher now and we'd be better off. it's not about the form of government we have, it's about the form of money management we have.

if ron paul has one thing right, it's his concern with the federal reserve and their manipulation of money and markets...with no oversight.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

the market does not control interest rates. if it did, they'd be higher now and we'd be better off.

Where did you come up with this laughable idea that debtors set the interest rates on dollars they borrow! Re-read that sentence again! Debtors don’t tell creditors what to do.

The US Government is the biggest debtor in the world. To the tune of 15 trillion dollars! They don’t tell the creditors what to do, it’s just the opposite. The creditors decide how much risk there is putting their money someplace and DEMAND an appropriate interest rate if the debtor wants to borrow their money.

Surely there has to be some bee keepers out there who can back up what I’m saying? Creditors set interest rates, not debtors.

spend a little time reading up on the federal reserve and the treasury dept. between the two, there are very few market forces involved in money, it's value, or the interest rates.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

The fed is also the largest lender in the world. They set the rates they will lend to the banks at. Then all the smaller lenders fall in line, so whether the lender or borrower sets the rate, it's still the fed. You are arguing the left or right hand of the same person.

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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

Big Money has us exactly where they want us; divided and ignorant. This topic is proof enough for me.

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -Thomas Jefferson, 1816

Too late?

t

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

It does not matter if inflation was 2, 4 or 8 percent. or whether you see inflation as high or not.

When your yearly salary is not keeping up with whatever the inflation rate is, it is still going to kill you over time just in small increments.

My wife has been here for twenty years. In that 20 years, her salary has not doubled. But the cost of just about everything else has. Milk, chicken, etc. And the cost of maintaining our home, including medical, electricity, and gas, has also doubled. When she got here 20 years ago, gas was 87 cents per gallon. Now it is 4 dollars per gallon. Her salary is not keeping up with that. And that goes for most folks.

So as example, if she was making 25 dollars per year (50,000 annually) 20 year ago, and now makes 35 dollars per year (70,000 annually), but the household expenses went from 20,000 dollars to 50,000 dollars, are you any better ahead. She has 10,000 less today than 20 year ago.

Businesses are charging twice for their products across the board for most items. But that does not translate into paying their workers double over that same timeframe. Because businesses do not have twice the cash they did even though the products are being sold for twice the cost.

Why is that?

Because what you need to do today to operate a small (or large) business is massive in administration, overhead, and everything else included by piled on with regulations, mandates, and requirements. This does not translate into more taxes for the government, but does play a part in the ever growing levels of government on all levels. The number of folks working at the township building has exploded over those twenty years, the number of administrators and support staff at the schools has double. We have an agency for everyone and everything. The additional small taxes, service fees, permits, and fees just to run a small business today is mind boggling as compared to 20 years ago.

So when inflation is 2 % a year, but the average household or business expense goes up 3 % each year to operate, on a single year basis, who really notices? But factor in that same model over twenty years, and it is staggering to know how far behind we are from 20 years ago.

And I blame the government for this. Just to put on a addition at the school, it will cost 80 million dollars. I think (or thought) they could build a new entire school for 80 million. But then you start looking at the project and the first 20 million go for designers, engineers, permits, environmental requirements, legal expenses, and a host of things before the first shovel of dirt is even dug. It's insane.

On a smaller scale, townships now require permits and fees for everything you can do around your house. Even 6x10 storage sheds required permits and fees. Some townships around here are even starting to charge registration fees for a backyard beehive, even though the state already collects and mandates it. We have money pouring out of our pockets for things twenty years ago they could never of even dreamed about.

So with increased costs going to run a household, with increased fees, taxes, permits, etc., then it just tips the scales that much sooner.

2% inflation is not killing us. It is everything combined with the 2% inflation that is burying folks slowly over time.

Government is causing these problems. But then they get to fool many folks by standing up and pointing fingers at a few select large businesses, and say all these problems will go away if it were not the greedy corporations, what a great plan that is. Greedy corporations have always been around. And on average, they pay very well. Comments like "Big money has us divided and where they want us" is a smoke screen and just points folks in the wrong direction. Get over it. Government is making a killing at the pumps but not a peep. And small businesses make up a huge portion of the economy, which has nothing to do with "big money". I think government red tape trumps big greedy businesses everytime in who impacts and controls inflation, expenses, etc. Most folks are not employed by huge businesses.

Many folks are being strangled, while debating whether 2% inflation is high or low. Your missing the point.

Blaming the government is what's easy BjornBee, especially easy in an election year.

IMO its also lazy, unless one is actively working to make change in government and not just complaining or blaming.

It also amounts to a smoke screen whenever convenient to the fanners of flames, regardless of the chosen side of stone throwers.

Truth be told; We wouldn't have 'complex regulations and tax codes' unless the status quo wasn't dependant on them.

True wages (not necessarily income) have been stagnant for the middle and lower classes pretty much since leaving the 'gold standard' behind under Nixon in 1972. Despite steady increases in productivity and GDP.

Not coincidentally, this also occurred when revenues on 'some' incomes, "unearned income" specifically, began taking a hit (from 70% to its current average of 15%), CEO's incomes began growing at astronomical rates, deregulations of the way Health Care (Insurance) was provided and 'bets against American success' were began on Wall-Street, with the HOUSING Industry and its victims left in the dust to clean up and pay up w/ this latest scam conducted on us all.

Under mostly false pretenses (lying) the rich started getting richer faster than at any previous time in history, to include the robber baron era.

Paying more at the pump, huh? Does anyone else think it just might have something to do with the fact that in 2011 BIG OIL 'EXPORTED' more American oil than at any other time in history? That's right folks, check it out for your selves.

2011 was another 'record" year for BIG OIL. Most Americans still believe American produced and refined oil 'stays' in America.......NOT!

In 2011 we emptied our TEXAS refineries for quick profits in Asia, Europe and Latin America, to the tune of 117 million gallons per day. All while we listened to the whining and 'deliberately confusing' debate over the KEYSTONE PIPELINE, the 1700 mile (target?) 'gift' to BIG OIL running through the middle of America and more drilling on and off-shore.

TransCanada has already admitted that the majority (up to 80%) of Canadian Tar Sand Oil running through that pipe will be going to Asia and Europe, yet the BIG OIL puppets will yap endlessly about the urgent 'need' to build it for the benefit of 'all' Americans. There's that cat ;)

Truth is, us Americans can't buy our own gas fast enough to satisfy the only motive of BIG OIL these days. Sell gas, make money (GREED).

THE MORE OIL THEY SHIP OVERSEAS THE LESS THERE IS AT HOME THE MORE THEY CAN CHARGE US FOR IT (and/or convince us we need to drill for more). See the web yet?

To add insult to injury, the NATURAL GAS Industry is now lobbying hard to get Congress to allow for the EXPORTATION of OUR Natural Gas. You know, all that gas just sitting under America that is 'supposed' to save us :roll: making us independent from the Middle East and all that crap :shock: :shock: :shock:.

For the first time in our history fuel EXPORTS have a bigger dollar value than 'all' other American made export products.

This absolute control and manipulation of a (LAND RESOURCE) product that IMO belongs to all of America (at least that's what they keep telling us every day, as a reason to 'drill baby drill') is the most glaring problem with our current blind acceptance of an economic system that only favors the already well-off.

While supporting this 'unsustainable' system will eventually spell our collective doom, it will also spell theirs 8-). It may very well be the only way :? :?

The wise among us already know who the survivors will be ;)

t

« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 12:08:02 PM by T Beek »

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

I could care less about your political position. While I agree with some of the details, I could pass on your position that you know better than anyone else.

The conversation at hand, was a debate of whether there was, or was not, inflation. My last post was an over view of sorts of what is happening to many folks. But you need to offer rebuttals thinking everyone else but you is throwing stones or fanning flames. Not one comment in my last post was political, and except for perhaps you, probably was read differently than your unique way of interpretation.

Anybody can pick one large business such as oil, claim they are to blame, call them greedy, and state what you did.

Giving tacit approval or completely ignoring governments involvement does what? Does that really help, claiming others who feel the government is part of the blame, by suggesting this is some election year scheme.

I think I will pay more attention to the PMs of those who keep telling me I'm wasting my time even discussing these things with you.

Yes, the world is not perfect. Corporations are out to make money. But I fail to understand how you can give government a complete pass, claiming anyone who mentions them as part of the problem, as nothing more than political hacks.

Your stance that everyone is "lazy" unless they are actively trying to make change, is shown by what? I have no clue who is active or not. And I find comments such as those you continue to suggest about others useless chatter.

I blame the government for this. Just to put on a addition at the school…... It's insane.

On a smaller scale, townships now require permits and fees for everything you can do around your house…….

increased fees, taxes, permits, etc., then it just tips the scales that much sooner.

Government is causing these problems. But then they get to fool many folks by standing up and pointing fingers …… Government is making a killing at the pumps but not a peep. ……I think government red tape trumps big greedy businesses everytime in who impacts and controls inflation, expenses, etc. Most folks are not employed by huge businesses.

I blame the government for this. Just to put on a addition at the school…... It's insane.

On a smaller scale, townships now require permits and fees for everything you can do around your house…….

increased fees, taxes, permits, etc., then it just tips the scales that much sooner.

Government is causing these problems. But then they get to fool many folks by standing up and pointing fingers …… Government is making a killing at the pumps but not a peep. ……I think government red tape trumps big greedy businesses everytime in who impacts and controls inflation, expenses, etc. Most folks are not employed by huge businesses.

OK.

Political means to me choosing a side or blaming one side or the other. Every one of my statements, clearly stated I was referencing a 20 year period. So now even mentioning governments part in the working of the economy, and it is "political'. there are a few "political" folks on here, but it is not me.

And since you agree 1000%, that it has nothing to do with government, let me just list a couple things you might understand as to my comments that beyond taxes, a drain on income comes from added areas mandated or required by government.

Vehicle emissions testing.... 1992 - No fee 2012 - 32.95 per vehicle. (I have four vehicles, meaning I have 131,80 less in today's dollars than I had 20 years ago. Go ahead and try to blame that on big oil. :-D

Apiary registration ............... 1992 - No fee. 2012 - 10 dollars.

Chew on those awhile. If you need more, I can list them also. My electric bill and the added fees over the past 20 years will amaze you. ;) You can't even buy tires today without mandated disposal fees. And if you listed everything today, as compared to 20 years ago, the list is really long. And many are mandated or required by the government on all levels.

These two examples are probably more in line with households. But we could also start a list of items that are burying small business also. Items not really calculated in inflation, but fees required to be paid to operate today.

But yeah....you keep saying government is not part of the problem of why folks today have less purchasing power as they did years ago.

But yeah....you keep saying government is not part of the problem of why folks today have less purchasing power as they did years ago.

Oh, how contraire! I have always said the Republicans are a big part of the problem. They’ve given our jobs to China and transferred our wealth to the top 1%. Did you miss that thread?

Yawn......

Are you in complete agreement with t-beek 1000% or not? You said you are. That is what I went with.

Now your becoming political after falsely claiming I was. Just change the point, and slide away. But I see that it is your view that it was the republicans "mainly" responsible for anything you selectively choose. I would not expect anything less from you.

You really think folks today don't see through this tit for tat "choose your side" and blame 100% of the problems on one party or the other?

Thank goodness for the many more sensible folks who see both sides for what they are. ;) Many folks are beyond that partisan stuff. You should catch up. A real shame that a simple discussion on inflation, turns political after some suggest that government is not any part of the problems. And you agree 1000% with them. Makes your thread either wrong, or your completely lost on the facts. You can't agree with another person 1000% on a stance that it is not the government but big oil as the one responsible, while claiming something else on another thread. Well...I guess I am wrong. Yes you can!

C'mon BjornBee; for someone who claims they "could care less" you've sure provided us w/ an ample, albeit a denigrating ;) response, so glad you find I'm still worthy :-D

But now, back to the content; Of which you addressed; NOTHING

If you had been paying attention to my words, instead of presuming to already know, you'd know very well that I've NEVER tried to let the government or its servants off the hook for its involvement in the troubles of the day. I am merely forced to point out OVER AND OVER AND OVER to those who don't know or don't want to believe or accept that WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT.

Some I've found, including you, seem to have a real dislike for that. Sorry man, but sometimes your (and other)comments deserve an alternative response and viewpoint, whether 'you' think so or not. Talk about pompous :roll:

If you don't like what I'm saying or can't/won't challenge the 'content' rationally, why respond at all? As I keep telling folks, I used to work for the government so I'm used to being ignored by all kinds of folks :-D It really was part of the job ;)

OK, So unless you are also blaming "US" (all of us) whenever you blame government you're gonna loose me and if watching I'll challenge the thought, despite the denigrating comments that come along with it ;).

I guess that still might be called looking at the BIG picture IMO :-D.

"Entertaining another's thought/opinion without accepting it is a sign of ones intelect" -Aristotle

t

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Obamas got a point. :lau: He is a moron, just barely smart enough to fool half of the voters who happened to be bigger morons, vote for him. ;)

Some proverb about a pot and a kettle come to mind about now…. :lol:

I hope you didn't waste too much time looking for that. ;)

I guess taking something out of context, from another discussion, is about what I would expect. So I agreed with someone on another thread calling Obama voters idiots, as I remember most being fooled about some "hope and change". Funny how those bumpers stickers came off only after a few months. So yeah, I think many folks who voted for obama were idiots, thinking that he was going to actually do everything he promised. I had friends say that within two years we would be off oil. That the only reason we were not already was Bush. Yeah, I heard all that before. Superman was supposed to walk again if certain people got elected, and we all know how that ended. But that means what in this discussion? Who cares? Not even relevant to this discussion. If you look hard enough, oh wait, I'll save you the time....just in this thread alone, I trashed all those in politics. I don't like government across the board. Hmmmm....now what does that show? Is that the "politics" as you call it. :lau: Sounds to me, that my message is right on target about Government, or is at least a tad bit less partisan than yours position.

So be careful about calling pots and kettles. Your much more closer than I am, buying into one side or the other. I played my comments right down the middle on this discussion. It was you who want to keep dividing it with your playbook stuff. But I would venture to guess that no matter my position, you would feel the need to express your self imposed superior stance on everything.

When your pulling out comments from last year, and resort to the old "Pot calling the kettle black" rhetoric, I must be hitting a nerve. Cause you certainly have not taken on much more than that in this discussion. :roll:

OK, if you’re finally ready to get off your high horse and stop denigrating everybody else, let's get to the facts. X:X X:X X:X

Let’s explore your electricity claims: According to PG&E their current rate for residential customers is 18 cents per kw-hour. In 1996 it is 13 cents per kw-hour. That averages out to about a 2% increase per year. Is that your definition of high inflation? http://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml#RESELEC

Even at a low inflation rate of 2%, things will EVENTUALLY double in price. Complaining that prices keep going up in absolute values is being disingenuous to the debate; of course they go up unless we are deflating. Pay no attention to your home values dropping like a rock….

What we're debating here is rather or not we are inflating at 2%, 8%, or 13%. The DATA says 2% but our bee keepers seem to know something the experts don’t. If we were inflating at 8%, then your electricity would be more like 44 cents per kw-hour. Is that what you are paying per kilowatt hour along with your $4 milk?