More accurately: So much for Ven Thanisarro's strawman version of bare-attention.

But is attention always bare without latent tendencies and other cognitive distortions underlying it?

I believe that sati is remembering the Dhamma. It is not becoming like a little child who (in ignorance) doesn't know and doesn't comment on what one observes.

Is Dhamma merely not thinking and "just be aware!" . If so, why did the Buddha teach so much?! He taught about aggregates, sense spheres, 18 elements, DO, 4NT, etc etc.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Not read the posts, just the last two. I guess that "bare attention" vs. "remembering" discussion is just the edge between sati and samadhi which might be not that sharp for the one and the other. Maybe we can compare it with the use of a telescope, there is work to be done by making the linses sharp as well as we need to make the eye sharp. To do so, needs to remember the last picture (panna) or to just try it different (saddha), which has to do with remember or better comparing. Of cause there is always concentration needed in between and it's how ever a wheel.

It is not becoming like a little child who (in ignorance) doesn't know and doesn't comment on what one observes.

I guess many of such situations are in fact high samadhi. Not allways children are daydreaming, so do not disturb them. Some even rememeber.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

"Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects the dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, monks, a monk dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati is aroused by the monk, on that occasion the monk develops the awakening factor of sati, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati comes to fulfillment through development in the monk."

"Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects the dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, monks, a monk dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati is aroused by the monk, on that occasion the monk develops the awakening factor of sati, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati comes to fulfillment through development in the monk."

"One remembers to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right remembrance.One remembers to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right remembrance.One remembers to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right remembrance.One remembers to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right remembrance.One remembers to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right remembrance."

"One remembers to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right remembrance.One remembers to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right remembrance.One remembers to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right remembrance.One remembers to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right remembrance.One remembers to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right remembrance."

tiltbillings wrote:Your proof that Ven Nyanaponika was "partly inspired by 'choiceless awareness' approach of Krishnamurti?" I rather doubt it.

The 'choiceless awareness' was introduced by Krishnamurti in his talks:

"(Choiceless) Awareness is a state in which there is no condemnation, no justification or identification, and therefore there is understanding: in that state of passive, alert awareness there is neither the experiencer nor the experienced."

"By bare attention we understand the clear and single-minded awareness of what actually happens to us and in us, at the successive moments of perception. It is called “bare” because it attends to the bare facts of a perception without reacting to them by deed, speech or mental comment."

Actually, you might want to give us an accurate translation of this. What GoogleTranslation gives us is interesting and suggestive.

There certainly is a risk that the peculiarity of this method is listed in too one-sided perspective, as an extreme pendulum swing against exercise ways that put the focus on a single object in the center. One may think about that deliberate concentration on a single object or even any methodological exercise are objectionable because of their alleged coercive character and it would be sufficient, a non-dialing mindfulness only focus it on the what has been happening the day. This is, for example, the view Krishnamurti. This attitude is also support by the influence of psychoanalysis nourished fear that everyone is like forming, voting and exclusive engagement in the intellectual structure to cramps, repressions and eventually neuroses. In all this is a legitimate core, and just the Satipatthana method takes this into account by their "non-violent" non-coercive character, but without falling into the extremes of the above views.

It seems what Ven Nyanaponika is talking about, within the Buddhist context, is a bit different than what Krishnamurti is suggesting.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

There is certainly a risk that the essence of this method will be seen in too one-sided perspective, as an extreme pendulum deviation from the ways of training that put the focus on a single object in the center. One may think that deliberate concentration on a single object or even any methodological exercise are objectionable because of their alleged coercive character, and it would be sufficient to direct a choiceless awareness to what happens during the day. This is, for example, the view of Krishnamurti. This attitude also finds support in the influence of psychoanalysis fed fears that any forming, selecting and excluding intervention in the structure of the psyche can lead to suppression, repression, and eventually to neurosis. All this has a seed of rationality, and indeed the Satipatthana method takes this into account by its "non-violent", non-coercive character, but without falling into the extremes of the above views.

It seems what Ven Nyanaponika is talking about, within the Buddhist context, is a bit different than what Krishnamurti is suggesting.

Dmytro wrote:Yes, 'remembrance, memory' is the only use of 'sati' in the suttas.

The importance of memory and remembering seems minimized, neglected or absent in the bare awareness approach, and seeing this shortcoming was one of the reasons I began looking at and employing alternative approaches (like Rev. T's). Properly understanding right mindfulness as right remembering makes a world of difference for practice. I tend to take right mindfulness as right remembering quite literally. From a psychological perspective, memory is notoriously unreliable and deceitful. Training our minds, then, necessarily involves confronting our propensities to ignorance and delusion via forgetting, denial, minimizing and other psychological strategies. In order to stop deceiving ourselves, we have to start not only remembering better but also uncovering the ways our memory twists events to conform to our beliefs that we are permanent, non-deluded selves. From my experience this is much harder (if not impossible) to do with a whatever-comes-up mindset.Edit: For the record I find value in Nyanaponika and Bhikkhu Bodhi and Krishnamurti and Rev. T and Joseph Goldstein and Tilt and Dmytro and....

Last edited by danieLion on Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

Dmytro wrote:Yes, 'remembrance, memory' is the only use of 'sati' in the suttas.

The importance of memory and remembering seems minimized, neglected or absent in the bare awareness approach, and seeing this shortcoming was one of the reasons I began looking at and employing alternative approaches (like Rev. T's). Properly understanding right mindfulness as right remembering makes a world of difference for practice. I tend to take right mindfulness as right remembering quite literally. From a psychological perspective, memory is notoriously unreliable and deceitful. Training our minds, then, necessarily involves confronting our propensities to ignorance and delusion via forgetting, denial, minimizing and other psychological strategies. In order to stop deceiving ourselves, we have to start not only remembering better but also uncovering the ways our memory twists events to conform to our beliefs that we are permanent, non-deluded selves. From my experience this is much harder (if not impossible) to do with a whatever-comes-up mindset.

Well, it seems that Ven Bodhi and Gethin would differ from Dmytro's assessment the "only" use of sati in the suttas. And I am sure you have seen in Goldstein's teachings it is a bit more sophisticated than merely "whatever-comes-up." And also. as others have pointed out, Ven Thanisarro's teachings are not really all that different from what one might find from a good vipassana teacher.

And spreaking of whatever-comes-up, I hear a great horned owl outside my window and I going out to take a look.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

Well possibly worth remembering that the words like "remembrance, memory" have a fairly broad level of meaning within the English language and may suggest different meanings to different people and in different contexts. I guess it would be the same with pali and "sati". Are remembrance and memory non verbal activities of the brain? Is that how people perceive them?

Well possibly worth remembering that the words like "remembrance, memory" have a fairly broad level of meaning within the English language and may suggest different meanings to different people and in different contexts. I guess it would be the same with pali and "sati".

Which is precisely so with many terms used within the Pali suttas. It is not always safe to go by the mere lexigraphical meaning, as we see in these two looks at the issue: