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Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Originally Posted by cpwill

true. and it is excellent that the discussion has therefore turned to our failed educational system, which is not a little bit responsible for that.

well, for example, we currently have a shortage of plumbers in this nation. electricians, too. neither of those jobs exactly require a college degree. average total compensation for a plumber is about $59,000, though to be fair their base pay is closer to $40K.

Right...the construction sector has the largest number of un/under/employed workers....and yet there is a "shortage" of these workers. BS.

what we don't need is more fools who spent a leisurely half-decade at State U getting a General Studies Degree with an emphasis in Public Drunkenness.yet we as a society support and we as a government fund people pursuing the second more than the former. you are correct that the Middle Class is bifurcating. But you are incorrect when you seek to draw out the main drivers of that trend.If I can suggest some quick reading. The main drivers, you will find, are behavioral.i'll admit, I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here. I'm not against some public support, I just think we should do it more intelligently.

Again, another BS argument, it is not "the behavior" of workers that is causing the loss of manufacturing/construction/municipal middle class employment....at all. That is this most irresponsible "blaming the victim" argument of the century, not to mention totally intellectually dishonest.

Originally Posted by trouble13

If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Bumped, still waiting for a response...

Originally Posted by MaggieD

They can't increase their skill sets until they have a good education. They aren't getting a good education. Hell, in inner cities, they're not even getting an education. Their role models are often the drug dealers in the neighborhoods. The welfare system has all but destroyed their families. They've been screwed, blued and tattoed by a system that says, "Here, let me help you."

Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth

There you go with the welfare thing. Welfare has been reduced to very low levels, you cons can't keep using this as an argument. Again, I post that article that you "liked", but I wonder if you read it. The ability for any group to climb out of an economic strata is very difficult, especially here in the US. We have some of the lowest levels of economic mobility of the major industrial states and it is not getting better. It is not a matter of race, this is the case for ALL races, it is a matter of quintiles. Again, the greatest obstacle for any group is the combination of education AND opportunity. Yes, you can get educated, but often the jobs are either moving or the industry has declined. You train for one job, the job disappears. I trained as a drafter, autocad decimated that field and the decline in manufacturing knocked it down further, not to mention the wholesale wiping out of construction related jobs. Apple's CEO complains that the skill sets they need to manufacture their products don't exist here. BS. There are plenty of out of work electronic line workers (and the training required is minimal), they won't do it because of decreased profit (even though the costs increase only @ 20% for a product that is in insane demand).

If the US allows the decimation of its industrial base, if it does not have an industrial policy and instead allows corporations to rule the economic system of the country, then we will continue to have declines in economic mobility.

Again, you want to blame the victim. They are not in control of their future job opportunities as much as you like to think they are.

Originally Posted by trouble13

If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth

Bumped, still waiting for a response...

I missed it Gimme, sorry.

Welfare has only recently been reformed. It's much better now than it used to be, but the bones of creating dependency aren't gone -- either in the system or in the mindset of people who see it as an entitlement and means to an end.

You say I want to blame the victim. No. I want to blame the system that created the victim: a failing school system and a welfare system, only recently somewhat reformed, that makes getting on the dole a job objective.

I am also not talking specifically about blacks. I'm talking about all inner-city poor.

Again, another BS argument, it is not "the behavior" of workers that is causing the loss of manufacturing/construction/municipal middle class employment....at all.

you are right. especially since these things are not occurring. what is occurring is that American society is bifurcating. let me know when you are willing to actually look at the stats rather than simply ranting.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Originally Posted by MaggieD

I missed it Gimme, sorry.

Welfare has only recently been reformed. It's much better now than it used to be, but the bones of creating dependency aren't gone -- either in the system or in the mindset of people who see it as an entitlement and means to an end.

You say I want to blame the victim. No. I want to blame the system that created the victim: a failing school system and a welfare system, only recently somewhat reformed, that makes getting on the dole a job objective.

I am also not talking specifically about blacks. I'm talking about all inner-city poor.

You just keep on ignoring the fact that people who cannot get work will require welfare. A society that does not match jobs to education will have large numbers unemployed and they will require welfare. Welfare is not what people aspire to. Not everyone is going to become engineers, we would not have enough of those jobs available to meet that demand. Germany has a 2 track system, higher academic track AND a vocational track. They protect their industries, they don't allow cheap foreign products in undercutting their industrial base. We do not do that, we allow corporations to do want they want. When you do this, you will have what we have, large numbers of underutilized workers. I believe one the biggest reasons we don't have kids interested in learning is because they see that it does not have a future. They see their parents not getting ahead, not increasing their REAL economic standing. Again, I am going back to economic mobility....the subject you keep avoiding. You cannot have economic mobility when the middle steps are being removed.

Originally Posted by trouble13

If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive

Yes, but why don't they want to be in school?

The problem is that some people think that when a kid "doesn't want to be in school", then that's the end of the conversation. In other words, if they don't want to be in school, then there isn't anything that can be done to help them succeed.

you nailed it. that is my position

The problem with that line of thinking is that it doesn't consider the questions, "can a school practically do anything to make a student want to be there?"

what does one do to make someone who does not want to attend school suddenly desire to attend school
free marijuana? possibly. but how is that doing to advance the educational process
we already offer free food
free tuition and books
what motivates a student to want to learn who has no interest in learning?

... and "do certain schools do more to interest students more than others?"

i agree. students who are more inclined to be tradesmen instead of attending a four-year college would be more inclined to attend classes where trades skills were taught. but recognize, those students WANT to attend to learn something. this is not true for that student - and unfortunately, they comprise a large number of the 30% dropouts - who simply has no interest in learning. no desire to attend school. no desire to elevate their degree of ignorance

The answer to both of those questions is "yes".

as you can see, i do not agree

So unless you can show that all "uninterested" students in poorly performing schools cannot be "made interested" in a practical, cost effective manner in the similar ways to how highly performing schools tend to interest their students, then whether or not students are "interested" is just another obstacle that CERTAIN (usually poor and minority) schools have failed to address.

i cannot meet your test. no one can. you would always be able to assert that there is another option available to somehow motivate that unmotivated kid
but i can reference my wife's present experience as an educator, at a nationally ranked top ten public high school. it's an IB school which also has an AP program. those students, who are motivated to do that advanced work, are also willing to expend the effort necessary to receive their IB diploma/AP credits. but the school has a general studies curriculum which will lead to a general HS diploma and cause one to be eligible for college if so motivated. additionally this school, which is larger than many colleges, offers a wide range of trade skills, ranging from culinary to carpentry to automotive to cosmetology. the school also has a program which allows its students to attend the local (also nationally ranked) community college to expand on those tradesman programs.
this loquacious description is offered to exhibit the wide ranging opportunities students have to receive a high school education which would meet their needs. but despite that expansive list of offerings, coupled with the premiere teaching talent in the region, there are many who simply choose not to take advantage of what is available to them. by estimate my wife contends about 1/4 of the white kids and 1/3 of the black students (in the regular studies/trades curricula) simply do not want to do the work. they are often absent without satisfactory reason and are destined to fail because they are unable or unwilling to do the work. in this state students can attend public school until they graduate or reach their 22nd birthday. those from homes which receive public assistance add to the amount received if they are found attending public school. so, while they are registered to attend, their purpose is not to receive an education but to enhance the amount of public assistance their family receives. no surprise, these students are often the ones who are the behavioral problems at the school. the ones who are disruptive and impair the learning of those who actually want to get an education
it is an unfortunate reality, but it is reality. there are a large number of students who simply are unmotivated to get an education. while you insist there are ways to motivate such students, i have not seen your solutions to this problem being proffered to the rest of us

we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it​[

... Maybe you shouldn’t be in the country. You have to stand proudly for the national anthem ... ~ tRump

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Anyone who has participated in construction has worked in plumbing, if you were in that trade for any length of time would know that. The formalized certification requirement is not much when you already have had hands-on experience. Any shortage of plumbers is simply a matter of certification because those who have the skills set right now are in great numbers. Again, it is a BS point.

you are right. especially since these things are not occurring.

More BS. The middle class jobs have been hit tremendously

.what is occurring is that American society is bifurcating. let me know when you are willing to actually look at the stats rather than simply ranting.

US society is splitting in two on ECONOMIC LEVELS.....not because of "behavior".

Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 04-07-12 at 02:58 PM.

Originally Posted by trouble13

If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth

You just keep on ignoring the fact that people who cannot get work will require welfare. A society that does not match jobs to education will have large numbers unemployed and they will require welfare. Welfare is not what people aspire to. Not everyone is going to become engineers, we would not have enough of those jobs available to meet that demand. Germany has a 2 track system, higher academic track AND a vocational track. They protect their industries, they don't allow cheap foreign products in undercutting their industrial base. We do not do that, we allow corporations to do want they want. When you do this, you will have what we have, large numbers of underutilized workers. I believe one the biggest reasons we don't have kids interested in learning is because they see that it does not have a future. They see their parents not getting ahead, not increasing their REAL economic standing. Again, I am going back to economic mobility....the subject you keep avoiding. You cannot have economic mobility when the middle steps are being removed.

It's exactly what most poor people aspire to. In most cases, poverty is a choice. I know plenty of poor people who are perfectly able to get a job, but aren't ambitious enough to get a job, because drawing welfare is easier.

Originally Posted by americanwoman

So there is absolutely no evidence this woman, whom you called a slut, did this but you are ready to take someone's word as evidence. Guess you don't think witch hunts have to end when it's going after the certain people.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Originally Posted by MaggieD

Ah, yes, Here we agree. (I love common ground.) In the matter we're discussing, elected representatives made a decision not to support PP. If my elected representatives make a decision to cut the military budget...or increase the military budget...then that's the way it is. This was done by a vote of Congress. Not Maggie sittin' around grumping about how my tax dollars are spent.

And that's why people who want Planned Parenthood well-funded don't vote for Republicans who are opposed to funding it. If you see that as a common ground, I don't see why you have to wonder if certain groups are brainwashed because they don't vote for the party that want to take the tax dollar away from the programmes they support, it's not something that's hard to understand.

Originally Posted by Free_Radical

And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.