(Original post by Jimbo1234)
"Those who do nothing about sin and evil, help the sin and evil to prevail."
Frankly, they are guilty of standing about and being cowards. Sure, don't get me wrong that they are in a ****ing dire position, but they have the choice of either be killed by fighting Hamas and maybe wining, or getting killed by Israel. One has the possibility of a better future, one does not.

Lets be realistic here , these civilians are not going to pick up arms whilst there children are being slaughtered by the hundreds. They can only pray that the shelling stops and that the rest of the world are those "who do nothing about sin and evil"

(Original post by filthy_pup)
So you call the Jews living in the Levant, many of whom had lived there since the year dot (and longer than the Arabs), are "breaking into someone's house"? You're saying the Levant has to be ethnically cleansed of Jews?

No, just the vast majority of the Jews who migrated to Israel and forcibly settled land that didn't belong to them. Where did I say the Levant should be ethnically cleansed of Jews? I'm just against people being forced out of their homes and into lives of abject poverty in refugee camps. People who still have no right to return to their land, whereas some random Jew from the other side of the world does, does that sound fair to you?

Under UN Resolution 181, Israel has a categorical right to exist, no matter what anti-semites and neo-Nazis and their fellow travellers say. There was no pre-exising Palestinian state, and the international community had every right to partition it in that way.

Well I disagree, the international community has no right to be partitioning up countries and see no reason as to why they should.

There wasn't even such a thing as the "Palestinian people" pre-1960s, they were called "Arabs", which is what they are

(Original post by Jimbo1234)
"Those who do nothing about sin and evil, help the sin and evil to prevail."
Frankly, they are guilty of standing about and being cowards. Sure, don't get me wrong that they are in a ****ing dire position, but they have the choice of either be killed by fighting Hamas and maybe wining, or getting killed by Israel. One has the possibility of a better future, one does not.

Well said. It's bizarre that Gazans are complaining about being bombed by Israel in one breath, and cheering on the rockets in the next. I should have thought it's basic logic that the former leads to the latter.

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
No, just the vast majority of the Jews who migrated to Israel and forcibly settled land that didn't belong to them.

It would appear you are deeply ignorant about the history of that area of the world if you think that pre-1948, the Jews forcibly settled the land, as opposed to buying and renting it.

Where did I say the Levant should be ethnically cleansed of Jews?

By saying there should be no Jewish state, you are saying it should be ethnically cleansed of Jews. Hamas has made it exceedingly clear that they seek the death of all Jews, and you support their "resistance"

I'm just against people being forced out of their homes and into lives of abject poverty in refugee camps.

People who still have no right to return to their land

Yes, that's what happens in wartime. It happened to millions of Germans at the end of World War 2 with population transfers. I mean ****, can you imagine in Europe something like this still going on 60 years later?

Europeans build a bridge and get over it, especially if they were in the wrong in the first place, like the Germans / Palestinians

Well I disagree, the international community has no right to be partitioning up countries and see no reason as to why they should.

I see no reason why the Palestinian Arabs should have 100% of the rights over Palestine when they made up 60% of the population.

(Original post by TSR Mustafa)
Lets be realistic here , these civilians are not going to pick up arms whilst there children are being slaughtered by the hundreds. They can only pray that the shelling stops and that the rest of the world are those "who do nothing about sin and evil"

Indeed. What they should do once the shelling stops is overthrow Hamas if they don't want this to happen again

(Original post by TSR Mustafa)
Lets be realistic here , these civilians are not going to pick up arms whilst there children are being slaughtered by the hundreds. They can only pray that the shelling stops and that the rest of the world are those "who do nothing about sin and evil"

They should have picked up arms before this all happened. They would have seen the rockets coming in and being moved, but like many people, they chose to hide and ignore it whilst hoping for the best Tragic, but stupid.
Well apparently if we do anything people complain about "boots on the ground etc". The West is the worst for it and we have no place in judging Israel. We say we want to help, but hope that harsh words will somehow stop blood lust. We need to grow a pair and be realistic about actual solutions. Either send in well trained people and take Hamas out, or shut up and let Israel do what they do.

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
You mean after zionists had already tried to claim other peoples land as their own? ?

no, im talking about long before the creation of a 'zionist' political trend

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
I'm talking about the creation of Israel, not post-Israeli politics. ?

the creation of israel was to give the jews a homeland where judaism orginated, same way islam was given one in saudi

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
People support the Palestinian cause, not Islamism or terrorist tactics. ?

the palestinian 'cause' is run by islamists, such as hamas, it always has been - which is to have the lands of levant in muslim control rahter than jewish. the fact that people there are called 'palestinian' is irrelevant to them

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
If you break into someones house and claim it for your own, is it your house ?

of course not, but in reality the arabs stole that' house 'long time ago, then lost it in war to the turks, who lost it in war to the british ( who then came up with the decree to give mecca to the arabs and saudi to the jews)

(Original post by filthy_pup)
It would appear you are deeply ignorant about the history of that area of the world if you think that pre-1948, the Jews forcibly settled the land, as opposed to buying and renting it.

They did both.

By saying there should be no Jewish state, you are saying it should be ethnically cleansed of Jews. Hamas has made it exceedingly clear that they seek the death of all Jews, and you support their "resistance"

No, I am not. In an ideal world, there wouldn't be. States shouldn't need to be divided based religious demographics, but stuff happens and I accept that there will be a Jewish state in the Levant. I don't support Hamas in their goal to kill all Jews, but I support the Palestinians in their fight for freedom, just as I'm sure you support Israel's right to defend itself without supporting the bombing of children.

Yes, that's what happens in wartime. It happened to millions of Germans at the end of World War 2 with population transfers. I mean ****, can you imagine in Europe something like this still going on 60 years later?

That doesn't make it right. I also don't see Germans being denied the right to return to their land, whereas there are still millions of Palestinians who aren't allowed to return and my French Jewish friend who has no connection to Israel whatsoever could hop on a plane tomorrow.

Europeans build a bridge and get over it, especially if they were in the wrong in the first place, like the Germans / Palestinians

That's because we saw what happens when you don't do that. Something that Israel is blissfully in denial of.

I see no reason why the Palestinian Arabs should have 100% of the rights over Palestine when they made up 60% of the population.

I see no reason why Palestinians should have the same rights as and be treated as pond life, as they are today.

I don't support Hamas in their goal to kill all Jews, but I support the Palestinians in their fight for freedom,

You don't support Hamas' goal to kill all the Jews, but you support their actions in furtherance of the goal of killing all the Jews.

And if you support the "fight for freedom", perhaps you should speak out that Palestinian Arabs should accept a peace offer when it's on the table? Or are you commited to permanent violence against the Jews?

just as I'm sure you support Israel's right to defend itself without supporting the bombing of children.

So you are claiming Israel deliberately targets children? Citation please.

That doesn't make it right. I also don't see Germans being denied the right to return to their land

What are you talking about? The land no longer belongs to the Germans, end of. "Right of Return" means the right to go back to land you no longer own and turn someone else off it.

If you support the "right" of Palestinians to do that, but not the right of Germans to do that to Poles, then you are a hypocrite.

That's because we saw what happens when you don't do that. Something that Israel is blissfully in denial of.

Israel is not the one precariously hanging on to a toehold of land that could just about constitute a state. And you're saying the Israelis are in denial? Get a grip

(Original post by broscience123)
Another deluded comment. Totally forgetting the mass immigration of Jews to Occupied Palestine and disregarding the fact that most of the ancestors of "Israelis" are from Europe. I guess after you keep telling yourself lies, you will eventually believe it.

As filthyPup mentioned what relevance does this argument have- its just another idiotic islamist propaganda statement. there are muslims emigrated to places all over the globe living where islam has no origins, so why now ***** about jews ( european or otherwise) living in palestine.

afterall there were no arabs in palestine before they invaded by force jerusalem - whereas there where for thousand years before jews.

who fed you that line of bs? - how would jews forcibly take land from palestinians pre 1948, without any army of significance. is all your knowledge made up of falsified historical comment from islamist websites?

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
That doesn't make it right. I also don't see Germans being denied the right to return to their land, whereas there are still millions of Palestinians who aren't allowed to return and my French Jewish friend who has no connection to Israel whatsoever could hop on a plane tomorrow. .

israel gives the right of any jew to settle their, that was the pricnple of a religious homeland - in exactly the same was any muslim can go and visit mecca, whereas an arab non muslim is not allowed to simply go and enter mecca

(Original post by Meenglishnogood)
no, im talking about long before the creation of a 'zionist' political trend

Then that's completely irrelevant to modern world.

the creation of israel was to give the jews a homeland where judaism orginated, same way islam was given one in saudi

Why are we playing God and handing out countries here there and everywhere?

the palestinian 'cause' is run by islamists, such as hamas, it always has been - which is to have the lands of levant in muslim control rahter than jewish. the fact that people there are called 'palestinian' is irrelevant to them

Well pre-Hamas Palestine was ran by Fatah, who even Israel didn't classify as a terrorist group. It is understandable that people turn to extremism after decades of oppression, not justifiable, but understandable.

of course not, but in reality the arabs stole that' house 'long time ago, then lost it in war to the turks, who lost it in war to the british ( who then came up with the decree to give mecca to the arabs and saudi to the jews)

Ancient history is irrelevant to the fact that people had the place they called home taken from them and are still to this day not allowed to return.

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
Then that's completely irrelevant to modern world. .

if the past is irrellvant to the modern world, then so in that case is 1948, 1967 etc etc. all that matters then is 2014, and in this time islamists are provoking israel by firing rockets. that is the reality of the modern world

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
Why are we playing God and handing out countries here there and everywhere? .

nobody is doing so, our past british governments invaded that land and took it over ( at the request of the arabs btw) jsut as the arabs had done before and the romans before that. why dont you try reading up on the lengthy history of this region instead of copy pasting slogans fed to you from activist websites. activists are usually idiots who dont have any understanding beyond rhetoric.

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
Well pre-Hamas Palestine was ran by Fatah, who even Israel didn't classify as a terrorist group. It is understandable that people turn to extremism after decades of oppression, not justifiable, but understandable. .

there was still islamic terorrism under fatah, also under plo, islamist influnce has always been there, it is jsut now more open. in the last 50 years islamist influence has grown all over the globe - look at kashmir, iraq and isis, chechnya, uhigur china, somalia, sudan, nigeria etc etc - it is an epidemic- israel are dealing with their own local islamist issue, but in reality most of the world has this issue to deal with themselves to some extent

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
Ancient history is irrelevant to the fact that people had the place they called home taken from them and are still to this day not allowed to return .

isreal has never exiled or stopped palestinians from living in palestine, try looking at the population figures

(Original post by broscience123)
Lol, not sure what history book this guy is reading, but it certainly isn't factual.

Ey? The area was land that belonged to the Brits, the state of Israel was set up and a year later all it's neighbours attacked with the express intention of eradicating the country and all it's citizens, even now Hamas believe that the Jews need eradicating from the face of the earth. What they've said is very much factual.

Whatever provocation and politics of the day is, bear in mind that it is just another in a very long bloody history.

There is elegant simplicity in Nina Paley's short film about it. Some say it is factually inaccurate and so on, but it does not matter because the gist of the matter is that umpteen wars have been fought over the land of Palestine by many peoples in the region, and no single people can truly claim sole right to stay there by using history or religion as justification.

What I like about Nina's 'This Land is Mine' is that it crystalised this point in a few minutes, and I dare challenge anyone who say they are not moved by it.

A change of heart is needed by those who obstinately stick to the position of ownership. This land cannot be owned, it has to be shared. That demands living in the protocol of a secular society not dominated by Jews or by Palestinians or anybody else.

You don't support Hamas' goal to kill all the Jews, but you support their actions in furtherance of the goal of killing all the Jews.

And if you support the "fight for freedom", perhaps you should speak out that Palestinian Arabs should accept a peace offer when it's on the table? Or are you commited to permanent violence against the Jews?

No, I support the Palestinians peoples right to not live under Israeli occupation, oppression and abject poverty.

Israel isn't offering any sort of peace, it's offering continued occupation, blockage and continued settlement of Palestinian land.

So you are claiming Israel deliberately targets children? Citation please.

(Original post by Meenglishnogood)
who fed you that line of bs? - how would jews forcibly take land from palestinians pre 1948, without any army of significance. is all your knowledge made up of falsified historical comment from islamist websites?

My lecturer of Middle Eastern politics.......

You also couldn't be more wrong about me being some kind of Islamist.

israel gives the right of any jew to settle their, that was the pricnple of a religious homeland - in exactly the same was any muslim can go and visit mecca, whereas an arab non muslim is not allowed to simply go and enter mecca

At the expense of a large number of people who were turfed out of their homes to accommodate them and their religious homeland.

(Original post by Meenglishnogood)
if the past is irrellvant to the modern world, then so in that case is 1948, 1967 etc etc. all that matters then is 2014, and in this time islamists are provoking israel by firing rockets. that is the reality of the modern world

Except people from 1948 and 1967 are still alive and so are their families, it's not ancient history, it's still a present issue.

nobody is doing so, our past british governments invaded that land and took it over ( at the request of the arabs btw) jsut as the arabs had done before and the romans before that. why dont you try reading up on the lengthy history of this region instead of copy pasting slogans fed to you from activist websites. activists are usually idiots who dont have any understanding beyond rhetoric.

Pot, kettle, black.

there was still islamic terorrism under fatah, also under plo, islamist influnce has always been there, it is jsut now more open. in the last 50 years islamist influence has grown all over the globe - look at kashmir, iraq and isis, chechnya, uhigur china, somalia, sudan, nigeria etc etc - it is an epidemic- israel are dealing with their own loca islamistl issue, but in reality most of the world has this issue to deal with themselves to some extent

None of those examples you mentioned are remotely comparable to the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Ancient history is irrelevant to the fact that people had the place they called home taken from them and are still to this day not allowed to return isreal has never exiled or stopped palestinians from living in palestine, try looking at the population figures

They don't want to live in the hell hole that is Israeli-occupied Palestine, neither should they have to.

Illegal Jewish immigration is not what you said (by the way, any attempt to render Jewish immigration to Palestine was illegal under the terms of the League of Nations mandate, and thus null and void).

What you said was that Jews pre-1948 were forcing Arabs out of their homes to live in them. Now show me a citation or stand condemned

Israel isn't offering any sort of peace, it's offering continued occupation, blockage and continued settlement of Palestinian land.

Israel offered one of the most comprehensive peace deals under Ehud Olmert in 2008 that they were ever likely to see. Condoleezza Rice quote "couldn't believe her eyes" at how generous it was.

Abu Mazen decided not to take Olmert up on it because he thought he could hold out for a better deal under the next President.

So now you're rowing back? Before it was deliberately targeting children, now it's indiscriminate?

The only thing that's indiscriminate is your understanding of the terminology of warfare.

The UN, that you spoke of so fondly earlier, disagree with you and support the Palestinian peoples right to return.

UN General Assembly resolutions are not binding on member states, they are advisory. The State of Israel is entirely justified in declining to allow millions of Palestinians to flood into Israel, to the detriment of their national security and national existence.

No, but Israel created this problem and is in denial about the impact and the consequences of its actions

No, the Arabs created this problem by rejecting partition in 1948 and attacking Israel with five national armies, with considerable support from the British. They lost. You don't get to complain about the outcome if you resort to violence and then lose.