As a full time hard bat player I play against sponge nearly all the time. In fact, it is a sad reality that I hardly play hard bat to hard bat. Anyways, my reason for posting is out of curiosity as to how:

- as a hard bat player, you play against sponge in terms of tactics and overall thoughts- perhaps as a sponge player, you find playing against hard bat, again, in terms of tactics and overall thoughts

Lastly, I am I interested in knowing peoples thoughts on hard bat vs sponge. In terms of them as separate games as well as when they meet each other on the table generally.

As a permanent hardbat player, I play like I did before turning to hard rubbers : I'm a close-to-the-table blocker and counter attacker. As I can't build my game on spin, I mostly play in ball placement and length, and varying the speed. I like loopers, because I can control the spin rather easily, and I don't like players who leave me the initiative...I think that hard rubbers are unfairly unknown and sometimes despised, but I'm sure that some players would certainly increase their level by using that kind of racket covering, instead of desperately try to master rubbers that are definitely not for them. But this is what the tt world is like : you can't be good and take pleasure if you don't play with inverted rubbers, at least on one side of your blade. This is a mistake.

I've tried playing with hardbat bats a few times, and I really enjoyed it. You always seem to get much better ralleys, enjoyed by both players. I think it's my fascination with spin that drives me to sponged rubbers though (well on one side anyway as I plkay LP OX on the other), something that's hard to give up.

We have only a few hardbat players in our league... my tactics is always to keep looping deep medium pace loops to them, as they tend to chop when they do this, which usually allows me to keep looping until I can see an opportunity to smash. This works well for me, and I know that if I start pushing or blocking, they'll start to attack, which I find hard to combat.

I started with a Hock bat a long time ago, 1950s. I switched to sponge but won some small tourneys first. Now I play Seemiller grip. I played a 1900+ hardbatter and won. He is a chopper with a vicious forhand smash, even from a distance. I kept him upset by looping to him, he would back off and chop, then drop block one with the anti. Seems he could get to any loop, side to side but drop shots, (double bouncers) messed him up.

I still like to play hardbat but my training partner hates it when I use it. He likes the fast, counter looping game. The hardbat makes him think too much. Many loopers have a hard time against hardbat because they have no spin to work with. When I played hardbat, I used to give a nice ball to them so they would hit and then I would counter hit. A flat hit with hardbat can be very fast and hard to return. In the 50s I saw most of the top hardbat players. Most of the big tourneys were in the east and I lived in NY. I went to tourneys from Chicago, Ohio, Pennsilvania, to NY and Canada. I have many stories about some of the top guns, stories I cant tell untill they are dead.

I'm enjoying reading everyone's responses, but just to clarify, what I mean by sponge vs hard bat is the two games as two games, peoples thoughts on each game in relation to each other and what sponge players think of playing hard bats, and what hard bat players think of playing sponge players.

The 1900+ hardbat player told me he would not be over 1700 if he played inverted rubbers. He claims his best wins against inverted players is because most do not get to play against hardbat and don't know how to handle it.

Coming from a hardbat background, I still like it but it is hard to find other hardbat players. I do enjoy the inverted looping game more. It is the spin involved that I like.

The 1900+ hardbat player told me he would not be over 1700 if he played inverted rubbers. He claims his best wins against inverted players is because most do not get to play against hardbat and don't know how to handle it.

Coming from a hardbat background, I still like it but it is hard to find other hardbat players. I do enjoy the inverted looping game more. It is the spin involved that I like.

That's interesting.

I agree, since most players these days, inverted players that is, won't have come across many if any, hard bat players. This does present certain challenges. Though in my experience, these challenges are short lived. Experienced players should, if they are of a certain ability, adapt. But if that 1900+ player is an all out flat hitter with the hard bat I can for sure see why he would give sponge players problems due to the flat trajectory.

Hard bat vs sponge is much like an M1-Garand vs M16 rifle in theory. The M1-Garand user is forced to be better technically if he is to beat a user of an M16. But of course, it doesn't always work that way. I've won a lot of games rather easy in past that maybe had I used inverted, those games wouldn't have been as easy. But, that is usually down to either, the first time playing an opponent who has been taken by surprise by trajectory and has been slow to adapt, or, a player who is sufficiently lower in standard and experience. But against good, solid experienced players, I've found my equipment to cause them no major visible problems, other than any problems like, unable to read when I float or chop which is of course me, not the rubber.

Players comments when playing me though usually go something like this:

"Don't mind when you chop because at least I get a chance to try my shots, just don't like it when you hit."

In counter exchanges I have less control with my hard bat than an inverted player, but, when I hit, as in hit to win the point outright, the hardbat has a unique flat bounce which makes it hard to return. My hit has actually gone through national and international players. But it has to be timed perfectly, usually as well when the ball is slightly higher than the net.

The 1900+ hardbat player told me he would not be over 1700 if he played inverted rubbers. He claims his best wins against inverted players is because most do not get to play against hardbat and don't know how to handle it.

Coming from a hardbat background, I still like it but it is hard to find other hardbat players. I do enjoy the inverted looping game more. It is the spin involved that I like.

That's interesting.

I agree, since most players these days, inverted players that is, won't have come across many if any, hard bat players. This does present certain challenges. Though in my experience, these challenges are short lived. Experienced players should, if they are of a certain ability, adapt. But if that 1900+ player is an all out flat hitter with the hard bat I can for sure see why he would give sponge players problems due to the flat trajectory.

Hard bat vs sponge is much like an M1-Garand vs M16 rifle in theory. The M1-Garand user is forced to be better technically if he is to beat a user of an M16. But of course, it doesn't always work that way. I've won a lot of games rather easy in past that maybe had I used inverted, those games wouldn't have been as easy. But, that is usually down to either, the first time playing an opponent who has been taken by surprise by trajectory and has been slow to adapt, or, a player who is sufficiently lower in standard and experience. But against good, solid experienced players, I've found my equipment to cause them no major visible problems, other than any problems like, unable to read when I float or chop which is of course me, not the rubber.

Players comments when playing me though usually go something like this:

"Don't mind when you chop because at least I get a chance to try my shots, just don't like it when you hit."

In counter exchanges I have less control with my hard bat than an inverted player, but, when I hit, as in hit to win the point outright, the hardbat has a unique flat bounce which makes it hard to return. My hit has actually gone through national and international players. But it has to be timed perfectly, usually as well when the ball is slightly higher than the net.

Hard bat all the way, true hard bat that is though. I'm talking about the game that died out decades ago. I've been lucky enough to have a few hours experience of playing that game myself, it is truly magical.

As an old soldier I'd like to offer that the M1 and the M16 have differences that would make one more suitable in some situations over the other. For urban or forested terrain the M16 wins hands down. But in the desert or for any target more than 400 yards away the M1 will out perform an M16 any time that a few well-placed shots will get the job done.

I think hardbat vs sponge is similar. One is not better than the other in essence. It just depends on the situation. If everyone played with WalMart special paddles and that was all that existed I doubt the ratings for most players would be that different in the long run from what they are now.

As an old soldier I'd like to offer that the M1 and the M16 have differences that would make one more suitable in some situations over the other. For urban or forested terrain the M16 wins hands down. But in the desert or for any target more than 400 yards away the M1 will out perform an M16 any time that a few well-placed shots will get the job done.

I think hardbat vs sponge is similar. One is not better than the other in essence. It just depends on the situation. If everyone played with WalMart special paddles and that was all that existed I doubt the ratings for most players would be that different in the long run from what they are now.

Yes, much like hard bat vs sponge. Hard bat is far superior at keeping the the arc of the ball lower over the net. As a defender that has used both sponge and hard bat, this is just fact. Keeping the ball lower over the net, especially with chops is a big deal, it makes it harder for an opponent to find his shots at the angles and speeds that perhaps they would like. That arc also applies to hitting, hitting with a hardbat, due to its low arc, means a sponge player generally has to think about what they are doing as it is coming through in a very different way.

Now, the sponge. It is superior to hard bat as in, competitive edge. I'm sorry but that's plain fact. There is no room for dispute on that matter. What there is dispute on as I have stated is how sponge vs hard bat actually can play out in reality at different levels. At low levels, recreational levels. The control of hard bat can give an edge of inverted players incapable of taking advantage of the spin and speed of sponge. To the other extremely, at pro levels, hard bat is greatly inferior sadly. At good standards of club level, and even county, perhaps even up to national level in British standards, hard bat can compete with sponge.Though, the player competing, if he/she was to take winning as the prime goal, there would be no other way than inverted, or inverted/pimple combination play.

As an old soldier I'd like to offer that the M1 and the M16 have differences that would make one more suitable in some situations over the other. For urban or forested terrain the M16 wins hands down. But in the desert or for any target more than 400 yards away the M1 will out perform an M16 any time that a few well-placed shots will get the job done.

I think hardbat vs sponge is similar. One is not better than the other in essence. It just depends on the situation. If everyone played with WalMart special paddles and that was all that existed I doubt the ratings for most players would be that different in the long run from what they are now.

Yes, much like hard bat vs sponge. Hard bat is far superior at keeping the the arc of the ball lower over the net. As a defender that has used both sponge and hard bat, this is just fact. Keeping the ball lower over the net, especially with chops is a big deal, it makes it harder for an opponent to find his shots at the angles and speeds that perhaps they would like. That arc also applies to hitting, hitting with a hardbat, due to its low arc, means a sponge player generally has to think about what they are doing as it is coming through in a very different way.

Now, the sponge. It is superior to hard bat as in, competitive edge. I'm sorry but that's plain fact. There is no room for dispute on that matter. What there is dispute on as I have stated is how sponge vs hard bat actually can play out in reality at different levels. At low levels, recreational levels. The control of hard bat can give an edge of inverted players incapable of taking advantage of the spin and speed of sponge. To the other extremely, at pro levels, hard bat is greatly inferior sadly. At good standards of club level, and even county, perhaps even up to national level in British standards, hard bat can compete with sponge.Though, the player competing, if he/she was to take winning as the prime goal, there would be no other way than inverted, or inverted/pimple combination play.

What there is dispute on as I have stated is how sponge vs hard bat actually can play out in reality at different levels. At low levels, recreational levels. The control of hard bat can give an edge of inverted players incapable of taking advantage of the spin and speed of sponge.

I'm not so sure about this from the view point of control. I've tried hardbat. I enjoyed it backhand style but I found it extremely difficult to control the ball off the forehand style. For me control is relative and at the level of play I'm at, that control is not there with hardbat. So if you're talking about lower levels - and that includes me, I get far more control with inverted than I do with hardbat. What hard bat did do was give me a much flatter trajectory with my shots - which you refer to - and great delight of hitting the ball off my backhand side, even if I did make a lot of mistakes off my forehand side

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