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So the story gets more interesting. The so-called "Qatif Girl", the truly heroic woman who now faces 200 lashes after being gang-raped had more than just the authorities of this savage kingdom to worry about -- it has recently emerged that her own brother tried to kill her when he realised she had been repeatedly violated.

Here in the West, if a brother discovers his sister has just been gang-raped he will have murder on his mind, for sure, but it would be directed towards those responsible, not his sister.

But in the twisted world of male Islamic pride, the poor girl who had been through an experience so traumatic that it is actually impossible to even contemplate, the family's spurious "honour" maintained precedence.

Although a world where "honour" consists of killing a rape victim is a world where "honour" has a very different meaning from how we understand it.

And that sense of honour being besmirched is what has driven those charming Sudanese chaps to go completely mental at the "leniency" shown to Gillian Gibbons.

Once their Friday prayers to the most merciful Allah were over, they spent the day demanding that the woman -- who was surely misguided in going to such a backwards hell-hole in the first place -- be executed by firing squad.

But what has been particularly nauseating has been the British government's handling of the affair. According to the Foreign Office, they were "very disappointed" at the verdict.

Really? Why didn't they simply say that the next aid bundle to Sudan, worth nearly £200m, was off the table and if anything further happened to the woman then crippling sanctions would be applied?

But no, instead we got a load of mealy-mouthed rubbish about how this was a localised incident, that it didn't represent Islam and hopefully we can all hold hands and sing songs around the proverbial camp fire. But the problem is that this is representative of Islam.

Anywhere in the world where Sharia law is practised, such barbaric and disgusting practises take place on a regular basis.

Don't believe me? Well, Iran has been in the news for the most recent example of a woman being sentenced to death by stoning. But they are also partial to hanging gay people and women with too much attitude.

And they quite like a bit of eye-gouging as well, when the mood takes them, such as the woman who had her eyes gouged out in a public square because she fought off a man who tried to rape her. Check that out on the internet when you fancy losing your lunch.

Or what about precious little Palestine, where 50 women have been killed by their own families this year alone, and where the beating of women who aren't sufficiently "modest" is common under the fanatics of Hamas.

Or Afghanistan, where women are routinely raped and murdered by family and strangers with impunity? Or Chechnya? Or Somalia? Or anywhere Sharia is practised.

And yet we are constantly instructed by the multicultural, liberal, chattering classes to show "respect" and "tolerance" towards Muslims who want to practise their cultural heritage in Western countries.

Well, you know what? I don't have any respect or tolerance for not just the actions, but also the mentality.

And before you start to think that this is something that is happening thousands of miles away, refer yourself back to the case of Birmingham woman Banaz Mahmoud, who was kidnapped, raped and tortured by her uncles last year before being killed and buried in a suitcase. Her crime? She had a boyfriend. She was one of at least 12 women killed by their families in Britain last year to protect their "honour".

And before we start to think that these are isolated incidents by extremists, the Muslim Council of Britain, the supposed "moderate" wing of mainstream Islam, still claim that death is too good for Salman Rushdi

Ian doesn't realise that by picking on the extreme elements of Islam he discredits himself more than Islam. It's easy to make fun of the lunatic fringe of any group. Does anyone know how Ian got a job? Presumably he has no family to be embarrassed by him, I always assumed he was raised in the Indo's basement with nothing but glue to eat.

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

The practices he's talking about are culturally specific - they are not simply "Islamic".

They pre-date Islam, are visible in non-Islamic traditions in the same regions (such as the Hindu immolation of widow's on pyres) and are not present in all Islamic countries (we seem incapable of recognising Indonesia as the most populous Islamic nation on earth).

The practices are dispicable, and should be resisted, rejected and condemned. Their use as a stick to beat all Muslims is ill informed, bigoted bull s**t propogated by the hard of thinking.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

Oh, and 40% of British Muslims want Sharia? Utter horses**t, and unreferenced horse s**t to boot.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

Ian doesn't realise that by picking on the extreme elements of Islam he discredits himself more than Islam. It's easy to make fun of the lunatic fringe of any group. Does anyone know how Ian got a job? Presumably he has no family to be embarrassed by him, I always assumed he was raised in the Indo's basement with nothing but glue to eat.

+1

Ian O'Doherty assumes that research andwikipedia are the same thing. He always goes for the easy targets and has a go at anyone that he can write about. It is a truism that all extreme elements of any organisation, secular or otherwise, are inherently capable of evil and wrong doing. O'Doherty treats these cases as proving the rule for all concerned. The sooner he fecks off to the Daily Mail (where he has many bedfellows) the better...but he is at least another reason not to buy the indo for anything other than sports, classifieds or toilet paper.

Ian doesn't realise that by picking on the extreme elements of Islam he discredits himself more than Islam. It's easy to make fun of the lunatic fringe of any group. Does anyone know how Ian got a job? Presumably he has no family to be embarrassed by him, I always assumed he was raised in the Indo's basement with nothing but glue to eat.

Ian doesn't realise that by picking on the extreme elements of Islam he discredits himself more than Islam. It's easy to make fun of the lunatic fringe of any group. Does anyone know how Ian got a job? Presumably he has no family to be embarrassed by him, I always assumed he was raised in the Indo's basement with nothing but glue to eat.

Irony?

I wasn't even given glue, nothing but lead paint chippings for me.

Ian is an offensive waste of skin, imo. Maybe I am too, maybe it takes one to know one. Either way, he's way off in most of his articles.

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

Having read it again, I recall that O'Doherty is the first one to put a boot into female 'celebs', for being too fat/drunk/loud etc...no problems treating women badly through his column apparently.....[img]smileys/sad.gif[/img]

With girls schools being comprehensively bombed in the tribal areas in Pak and Afghanistan and the teachers being murdered. Women in general in Afghanistan having the status of prostitutes, a theocracy in Iran gone bonkers with the Iranian pope living in the lap of luxury with fancy horses and antique collections............

With girls schools being comprehensively bombed in the tribal areas in Pak and Afghanistan and the teachers being murdered. Women in general in Afghanistan having the status of prostitutes, a theocracy in Iran gone bonkers with the Iranian pope living in the lap of luxury with fancy horses and antique collections............

Your first statement there is just a groundless assertion. There are around a billion muslims in the world. What proportion are you arguing support the practices you're condemning?

Aside from that, it's a complete misdiagnosis of the issue. Afghanistan had a Muslim population when Kabul was a liberal and fairly cosmopolitan city in the 1960's. Indonesia has one now. Those out protesting against the Iranian Theocracy are also Muslims.

The sort of huge, sweeping generalisations you're making add nothing to anyone's understandings of the multiplicity and complexity of the Islamic world and the multitude of cultures that it encompasses.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

With girls schools being comprehensively bombed in the tribal areas in Pak and Afghanistan and the teachers being murdered. Women in general in Afghanistan having the status of prostitutes, a theocracy in Iran gone bonkers with the Iranian pope living in the lap of luxury with fancy horses and antique collections............

Your first statement there is just a groundless assertion. There are around a billion muslims in the world. What proportion are you arguing support the practices you're condemning?

Aside from that, it's a complete misdiagnosis of the issue. Afghanistan had a Muslim population when Kabul was a liberal and fairly cosmopolitan city in the 1960's. Indonesia has one now. Those out protesting against the Iranian Theocracy are also Muslims.

The sort of huge, sweeping generalisations you're making add nothing to anyone's understandings of the multiplicity and complexity of the Islamic world and the multitude of cultures that it encompasses.

It's worse than that though, at least Ian O'Doherty has the excuse of being an idiot. It's not much of an excuse, but at least you know he genuinely can't grasp the nuances of a take away menu let alone inter and intra-faith conflict in the world. To hide behind him and make him your standard bearer when you've the intelligence to know better is nothing to be proud of.

Far more than the lunatic fringe of the Catholic Church covered up child abuse for example, does that mean all Christianity is doomed also? Maybe, but it's outlived John Lennon and it'll outlive everyone here too.

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

I for one am tired of trying to understandthe multiplicity and complexity of the Islamic world and the multitude of cultures that it encompasses. It's the 21st century, not even the fringe elements should be allowed to get away with things like this (not that anyone here is saying they should). Ian O'Doherty may be an idiot but he got this one right in my opinion...

O'Doherty is a clown. Anything he writes which is in any way related to Islam or the muslim world has to be taken with a grain of salt. He has a serious hard-on for Israel and has mentioned so in previous articles of his (he may not have used the words hard-on). He's very narrow minded when it comes to Islam and is ignorant of most of the basic facts (as pointed out by BB)

"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards - checkmate!" Zapp Brannigan

Good article by O'Doherty, and I'm sure it is also a breach of the daft blasphemy law. Now if he could do a series of these, attacking each of the superstitions such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc, I may save them for posterity.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too ?" - Douglas Adams

I for one am tired of trying to understandthe multiplicity and complexity of the Islamic world and the multitude of cultures that it encompasses. It's the 21st century, not even the fringe elements should be allowed to get away with things like this (not that anyone here is saying they should). Ian O'Doherty may be an idiot but he got this one right in my opinion...

You're very right (and very wrong).

There is no excusing what the "fringe elements" are doing. What we do about it is a fairly messy question, but in principle we can all agree that practices like honour killing are morally repugnant.

O'Doherty is wrong because he refuses to accept (or is too stupid to know) that not all Muslim's share these practices and that, if we want to do anything about them, treating them as an "Islamic" issue is a bad starting point.

We might as well condemn all Catholics because Croatian Priests joined in pogroms against the Jews in WW2.

He is blurring the issue with that lack of understanding, and that makes any sort of solution next to impossible.

It strikes me as doubly odd coming from anyone from Ireland, to be honest. How many of us have had to live with the assumption that we support PIRA? Do we not understand as much as anyone that you can't make assumptions about a whole nation or culture based on a minority?

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

I'd be very doubtful of your analysis BB. While it's not the majority who are 'terrorist' that's partly because it never is. But just as with the PIRA there was no appetite in the Nationalist community to defeat them, similarly the majority of Muslims DO support the aims of the extremists but don't like the idea of getting into trouble themselves.
What the 'extremists' ultimately want is a new Caliphate and there is no hope whatsoever of this happening in the 21st century for a few good reasons.
In reality thay have no case other than dogma.
Until the moderates really stand up to the extremists you'd have to take the view that the extremists DO speak for Islam.
The younger generation will abandon Islam and it will end like Christianity, fairly irrelevant.
There might be a big bang along the way though.

I'd be very doubtful of your analysis BB. While it's not the majority who are 'terrorist' that's partly because it never is. But just as with the PIRA there was no appetite in the Nationalist community to defeat them, similarly the majority of Muslims DO support the aims of the extremists but don't like the idea of getting into trouble themselves.
What the 'extremists' ultimately want is a new Caliphate and there is no hope whatsoever of this happening in the 21st century for a few good reasons.
In reality thay have no case other than dogma.
Until the moderates really stand up to the extremists you'd have to take the view that the extremists DO speak for Islam.
The younger generation will abandon Islam and it will end like Christianity, fairly irrelevant.
There might be a big bang along the way though.

Sorry, but that's spurious nonsense. The majority of Muslims support the extremists? What do you base that judgement on?

Moderates stand up to extremists? Are we (again) ignoring Malaysia and Indonesia? Are we ignoring the fact that the repressive regimes in Syria and Egypt are non-Islamic, but that those struggling for human rights in those countries are Muslims?

It's orientalist claptrap.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

No, you're right. Your vision of a unified and homogenous Islamic culture stretching from the Bospherous to the Pacific, all of one mind and purpose and intent on the restoration of the Caliphate is in no way orientalist.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

MrsT, most religions have their extremists, take the caste system in Hinduism, surely one of the most disgusting practices anywhere in the world, but Hinduism itself shouldn't be judged solely on that term.

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

BB being an athiest means you'll never understand Islam. But your liberal conceit also means you can't see that.

You're like a walking, talking fortune cookie.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

MrsT, most religions have their extremists, take the caste system in Hinduism, surely one of the most disgusting practices anywhere in the world, but Hinduism itself shouldn't be judged solely on that term.

Casteism is a ridiculous abomination but there's a difference here. Hinduism has never been exclusive in principle as many Islamists are. Kafirs to be converted at swordpoint.