Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

Thanks for the picts of the chains and explanation!

Typically when i got into town to madsen's i ask for chain for my saw and they sometimes ask if i want safety. I didn't really notice if it was "green" or not. I had heard there was a difference in the rakes that effected the kick back susceptibility and the ability to plunge, but my eyesight isn't very good for close up so couldn't make out what the difference was.

Your explanation along with the pictures really make it clear. My experience with semi and full chisel agrees with what you have stated here as well. Full chisel cuts very well but is very picky about dirt and the semi cuts well most of the time especially if the wood it "dirty".

Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

Amazing at the amount of knowledge that can be gained in the many different forum groups on this site. The pictures clearly show the intended point. Have been considering purchasing a larger saw to go along with my Stihl MS250 with 18" bar. After performing a few searches I wound up here. Had been visiting this site for years without realizing there was a chain saw group.

Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

Originally Posted by s219

ghenges, if you bought a MS-250, that is a homeowner saw and comes with a green semi-chisel chain (RM3). You'd have to know to ask special to get a green full-chisel for that saw, and based on the thread, I don't think you did. So this is not an apples-to-apples comparison, which is a common mistake. Your new yellow chain is full chisel (RS). Your old green chain is semi-chisel (RM). People compare green and yellow with no idea that there are all sorts of different cutter types, and that is an entirely different factor. As we mentioned earlier, you can get both RS and RM in green or yellow. The color won't impact anything but plunge/bore performance.

Like I said, until the chain rotates around the tip of the bar, a green chain and a yellow chain will perform identically. The only difference in a green chain is when the safety rakers pop out, and that only happens when the chain turns the radius at the bar tip. I won't argue this further, but I will post a couple photos to illustrate the point for anyone who doesn't have both chains to compare.

First, here is a shot showing the cutter of a green RS chain (top) and a yellow RS chain (bottom).

As you can see, the cutters are identical (except the top one has been filed many times and the bottom is new). I drew an arrow showing both the vector of movement, and also how the depth of cut is set by the raker at the front of the cutter. You can see the safety hump in the background and see that it is both below and behind the depth raker, so it will not affect the cut at all.

Now here's a shot as the green chain rounds the bar tip. Note how the safety raker pops out in front of the depth raker, and you can see the vector here is altered because of that.

That is what makes a green chain resistant to kick-back but also poor at plunging. It basically acts like it has an extra big raker when turning around the tip, and the raker is farther out in front to cast more of a shadow that blanks out the cutter.

I won't belabor this point anymore, but I will tell you that you're falling into the trap of not understanding what makes different chains behave and perform differently, and this is exactly why the lawyers get involved and people have to sign waivers to buy certain chains. Your dealer really should have taken the time to explain all this to you, and sent you home with a green full-chisel chain (RS3). That would have done what you wanted in terms of improved cutting performance, not kicked back severely at the tip, and kept you safer.

The main downside to full-chisel, regardless of whether it's yellow or green, is that it will dull much faster, so you will get to a point where it actually cuts much worse than semi-chisel until sharpened. Plan to sharpen often to maintain the improved cutting performance. And please take the time to study your chains and understand the mechanics before diving in, otherwise at some point we may have to change your username to "stumpy" . Be careful with that yellow chain, as it can bite and turn on you in a heartbeat.

Consider myself a highly experienced ........ and safe chainsaw operator (although no specific safety equipment employed).
Cut thousands of cords of firewood in my time, most of that occurring in the firewood frenzy following the Arab oil embargo circa 1973.
My problem is coming to grips with a litigiously driven marketplace that assumes every single person is an idiot, and all the subsequent options, choices and frustrations that unfortunately does entail.

As I previously stated, my purpose of opening this thread was so that others who own these particular Stihl saws might benefit from my experiences.
Thanks to a magnanimous and patient man such as yourself this thread has achieved the educational effect I hoped it would.

I made the mistake assuming all "green" chains were the same, not realizing my dealer kept throwing the same consumer oriented idiot-proof chain across the counter at me every time.
I am certain the dealer's policy is to supply the anti-kickback chain to all customers, the dealer's reasoning being if the customer really knows what they are doing, they'll know exactly (like you do) what specific chain to request.

Originally Posted by s219

ghenges, if you bought a MS-250, that is a homeowner saw and comes with a green semi-chisel chain (RM3). You'd have to know to ask special to get a green full-chisel for that saw, and based on the thread, I don't think you did. So this is not an apples-to-apples comparison, which is a common mistake. Your new yellow chain is full chisel (RS). Your old green chain is semi-chisel (RM). People compare green and yellow with no idea that there are all sorts of different cutter types, and that is an entirely different factor. As we mentioned earlier, you can get both RS and RM in green or yellow. The color won't impact anything but plunge/bore performance.

I apologize for being obtuse and for assuming I "knew" green chains were all the same.
Unfortunately assumptions are not unlike termites of the brain, assumptions that left unchallenged over time silently diminish one's cognitive power structure.
Thanks for hanging in there to beat the point into my skull. Seriously, I sincerely appreciate the comeuppance.
The chain I was previously employing was indeed an RM3 chain.
The chain that originally came on the saw was a PM3.
------------------------
You are correct about the plunge cutting ability of the full chisel.
Ran six tanks of fuel today cutting firewood.
The extended use of the anti-kickback chain must have habituated me more that I realized by lulling me into a false sense of security when using the tip of the bar. Experimented today specifically with plunge cuts and kick-back characteristics of the chisel chain, quickly relearned the techniques I had evidently employed in the past.... such is the sin of senility.
-------------------------
Thanks again.
You are the man that made this tread very educational as several posters have already alluded to, and that's not counting all the lurkers or all the folks in the future that will Google up this thread.
Leaving a positive and educational legacy is what the internet should be all about.
THANK YOU

"I know the end of humanity is near when my tractor comes with a place to store and plug in a cell phone, but no tool box" -- God's Country

Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

Great, glad we're all on the same page. I'm always happy to talk chainsaws and chains -- they are surprisingly technical in detail, and always interesting to me. I'm off to do some cutting with my 461 shortly...

Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

Originally Posted by ghenges

I used my old McCullough 10-10 and Homelite Super XL's with the full chisel chains and they never kicked this hard or as easily. To me this Stihl chain has different characteristics than those older chisel chains.

s219 has done an excellent job covering most everything in this thread

AS to your new setup seeming to "kick" harder than your old saws, It has little to do with the chain design itself.

Rather you are running a saw that weighs half of what them old ones did, as well as running a MUCH higher chain speed. THAT is what makes it kick harder.

".........there is only one way to find out."
"Ok, hold my beer and watch this.........."

Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

Glad I found this thread. WELL, I knew it would happen. I was cutting on the old oak that fell a few months back & must have gotten into a nail or something & really screwed up the chain on my new 372.I went by the chain saw shop to get a new chain.He was going to sell me a chain that was more agressive but said it would dull quicker.I told him I didn't want that, just give me a chain like came on the saw. He sold me a Stihl chain # RS3. I have no Idea if it's chiesl or not (I guess not) but, I liked the way the saw cut with the original chain so, this is what I bought.It came in a package with green sides. I think the other chain had yellow sides on the box.If this chain cuts as good as the original chain I'll be happy,as long as I don't hit anything else in that old oak that someone may driven into it many yrs ago.Man ,I love this saw ! It really eats compared to my old 53cc 20''rancher

I'm pretty sure the RS3 or RSC chain is a full chisel just green v yellow. That will cut faster out of the box but dull faster especially in dirty wood. The RM3 or RMC are semi chisel chains. green /yellow. I run yellow RMF full skip semi chisel on my 36" bar

Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

If I were to cut the rakers down, would that mean I would have chisel or semi chisel ? I can tell you that, the safety chain ( the 1 that came on the saw) will still kick when I sink it into this large diameter tree. I've had to reset the chain brake several times from the saw bucking