And i see the Fail is still perpetuating the lie about the feminist tee shirt in the opening paragraph of the personal attack. Im no fan of Miliband or Labour, but what the fuck are the Mail scared of to have to resort to low blows and outright falsehoods?

I agree with John Bird – some 20+ years ago I decided not to GIVE HAND OUTS.

There has to be something in return. .. even if the beggar cleaned the area around him / her.

I was furious with an American (and told him so in no uncertain terms!) in Huanchaco-Peru in 2008 who said “I just give them money to go away”.

Instead, I asked the same boy whether he would like to wash my car – he did – and I rewarded him handsomely and he learnt that there was “another way” and returned a few times in the following weeks to wash my car and also learnt how to wash it well!

Tom – Maybe in your simple mind it’s easy. For real people on the streets and in welfare services it isn’t. Is it because he’s a Tory, or maybe your one-off quote is a moronic irrelevance and adults should actually try to talk about whether he’s right or wrong, and what should be done about it?

Tom – I absolutely-fucking-guarantee that you will not even attempt to discuss this. Prove me wrong……

[As I have explained to you countless times, I don’t discuss things with people whose idea of discussion is to call me “moronic”. Or “simple”. End of.] – TOM

Here’s a start for anybody on this site (especially you Tom) who is not afraid of actually discussing something intelligently instead of spouting mindless party political crap soundbites masquerading as satire…..

In a modern affluent society begging should not be encouraged by giving money to beggars.

Rubbish! You have no qualms whatsoever about slating other people for their vacuous opinions, so why are you so much better than them? The truth is that you are afraid to discuss your own opinions at all. If you think your opinions make more sense than theirs…… PROVE IT

[You have the right to slate me. That’s why I don’t moderate your comments. But don’t expect me to waste my time discussing your childish insults with you. I have tried many many times to discuss things with you FinkFurst. All you do is descend into more childish insults. I see no change in your behaviour. No more wasting my time. And if you think this site is just “spouting mindless party political crap soundbites masquerading as satire” then why don’t you do us all a favour and f*ck off to another website.] -TOM

nuggy – Don’t jump to conclusions. I didn’t say I have any such right, and I don’t, only an opinion. Maybe because there are better ways of giving money to help homeless people. Do you have an adult opinion about that?

Yes….nothing is free in life…….we need to understand that work gives us self respect….. shoe shine boys hustling cocaine is better than nothing……rich tourists are a blight…….so very patronising ya see!

I was just wondering… if you criticised another political commentator (such as a Daily Mail journalist) and their response was “why don’t you just f*ck off to another website”, what do you think you would say about their attitude on this blog?

Here’s a suggestion for you nuggy, and there are many, many others. Instead of giving a pound to a beggar in the street (who may or may not actually be in need) give five pounds to Shelter (http://www.shelter.org.uk/).

Penny – I’m confused 😦 Not sure whether u agreed or disagreed. I arranged (thru’ the v helpful cafe where I was eating as they realised what I was trying to do) for the kid to get a bucket, water and a sponge and showed him how to clean a car. The American guy’s action (just give him the money) did nothing to develop the kid – in fact quite the contrary. I wasn’t being patronising in any way. It is also consistent with the approach I have taken with my Project in Lima (using Performing Arts in primary schools) – providing the framework and “knowledge transfer” – but they do it.. so that they develop their skills and, as you say – consequently self respect. … and it is going soooo well! In fact Incredibly WELL!

I am sorry I meant to press the ‘like’ button 😦
I agree with you….it is the rich tourists that are the blight ..’so very patronising ya see’ I know them well…ugh!
I agree with you…:)
And continue with your efforts…..I salute you
Buena Suerte…
Hasta luego Senor!

If you don’t trust any charities at all, then maybe your only option is to sit down and talk for a while with the beggar and then you can make your own judgement about them. It can be quite illuminating.

penny
rubbish work does NOT give self respect…we are born with self respect, lovable, sociable, and non violent…work is building shelter, making fire, making clothes, hunting and gathering our daily needs, some for now some to store…moving around doing those activities keeps our bodies in shape…btw i began my apprenticeship in 1968, it lasted 5yrs, i have trained many apprentices ie knowledge transfer..the apprentice watches @1st, the master does the work…there is no joy in it i can assure you, it is hard graft…the pleasure is when the golden eagle shits, and when the day is done…i’ve washed and steam cleaned 1000’s of cars and lorries, all you get is wet, cold, poor circulation, and other aliments…still it’s better to get some one else to do it, eh! NOT…we need proper investment in jobs creation, sadly the uk has not seen it for many years…work is a means to an end ie putting food in one’s gut…we all need reliable supplies of vitality giving vitals of life, we only notice and life gets very bad, when they are not available…to live a reasonably healthy life in the uk today, one needs the equivalent value regular income of £350/wk…work @ that level of pay in the uk is in very short supply…work, rest, and play…fretting about how to get through the next day for long periods is very bad for one…

“rubbish work does NOT give self respect”
Wrong! It pays the rent and puts food on the table, and it’s THAT which gives self respect, and far more so than not making an effort. I’ve done rubbish work many times, but I did my best and I felt that I earned my pay packet at the end of the week.

I never give money to beggars, and don’t buy the Big Issue because I don’t like the articles.

However, when my friend became homeless, I gave him my sofa for 5 months while he found his feet. I lived in a 1 bedroom flat at the time.
Charity begins at home, but its far too difficult for most people – its far easier to open a wallet!

Giving money to charity is just a way to sooth the ego of the guilt of modern day consumerism – and a whole industry exists to service it.

[As I have explained to you countless times, I don’t discuss things with people whose idea of discussion is to call me “moronic”. Or “simple”. End of.] – TOM

You could say I was just returning your “childish insult” from 26 October when you said “Blimey FinkFurst – You’re thick” (which you’ve since deleted). Hypocrisy again? I’m happy to discuss anything with anyone. I don’t have a problem with people calling me thick, moronic or simple. The reason? – because I can prove that I’m not.

If you don’t like discussing things, or you think discussion is a waste of time, then just say so. This is your site and you can do whatever you want! You don’t have to make up excuses.

123db – I think the problem (which nuggy has illustrated) is that there are so many ‘charities’ which don’t deserve that status and squander money (The Fawcett Society being one) that worthwhile charities such as Shelter are no longer trusted.

The regulation of charitable status needs root and branch reform. The fact that Eton College is a registered charity proves how ridiculous it is.

…and you could also say that ‘Labour’ ideology led to the deaths of more than 100,000 innocent Iraqi people. That’s why stupid partisan mud-slinging such as this by Tom Pride doesn’t help us get anywhere.

but you’re saying that we have to earn self respect, by doing work, earning right to live by gaining money….according to you money = self respect…the act of work on it’s own cannot earn self respect without gratification…ie WORKFARE cannot bring self respect,learning how to work cannot bring self respect only money or gratification can, but it also how that money is earned…i’ve never known a deer or a bird take out a mortgage or struggle to know how to live or what to eat, have you? we are born with a very well developed suckle, our 1st act of regular work is to suckle, the suckle is WORK…the gratification comes with the food that work suckle brings, get no gratification (food) from it when we need food, we are m/t bitter, angry and with a LOSS of self esteem/respect…it’s the gratification/rewards of work not the work in itself that ensure continuance of self respect/esteem form birth …we go to school and learn how to work…fine when there are plenty of jobs, but now there are few, many leave us short and keep us in poverty….13m people in poverty in the uk, 7m in work poverty.. the whole basis/idea of scottish indy was to end poverty, restore/recover land rights and bring social justice to all, no one rich no one poor, COMMON WEAL…there are many ways in which work can pay and as we are facing global hunger and global warming crisis need to be enacted…see SKARA BREA, terra preta, eco houses/villages, perma-culture et al the mayans had a wonderful farming system…we were driven off the land in the industrial revolution, now we need our land back… see the cheviot the stag and the black black oil…several studies have shown one off lump sum, free no strings money WORKS very well in ending poverty and changing lives, turning lives around no GURUS REQUIRED…a citizens basic income has also proved itself to be very beneficial to communities.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyJmDcQf-qU

I’d agree, did you see the paragraph in the Mail where Bird described his obviously alcoholic father?
No attempt to try and understand a sick man, a man so consumed by his disease, that feeding the addiction took precedence over food and even the roof over his families heads
Just bitter vitriol and condemnation.
A very compassionate man, eh

“No attempt to try and understand a sick man, a man so consumed by his disease, that feeding the addiction took precedence over food and even the roof over his families heads Just bitter vitriol and condemnation”?

Where did you get that from? Are you expecting somebody put out onto the streets aged only five to say that’s OK because it was an addiction? I would be f*cking bitter and condemning too!

No, it isnt ok, anyone with any scintilla of intelligence can see this.

Though i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and ascribe your reply to being argument for arguments sake

What isnt ok is carrying such hatred, failure to try and apply a little empathy – towards your own family- in to adulthood, especially from one who has experienced what Bird has in his formative years. From one who goes on to form a lucrative career from that background.

ulysses
but they’re in denial of current social truth…their jobs stealing wealth is used to insulate themselves from truth…they try to be role models, gurus, without facing the truth of their horrendous childhoods…gain the world and lose sight of their souls…actors…

Ulysses – If you want to criticise a man for still being bitter about being put out onto the streets at the age of 5 then that’s up to you. However, unless you’ve been there yourself then I say you’re talking out of your arse.

It may be that he invented all of it, but that’s not really the point. It’s still a real discussion whether it’s about Bird or some other unknown child. The same story of alcohol/drug abuse and abandonment and cruelty to children is all too common.

p s penny; a note to my above posts and all my posts on this thread.. http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/places/propertyresults/propertyabout.htm?PropID=PL_244&PropName=Skara Brae Prehistoric Village
“The artefacts
A rich array of artefacts and ecofacts has been discovered during the various archaeological excavations. They include gaming dice, hand tools, pottery and jewellery (necklaces, beads, pendants and pins). Most remarkable are the richly carved stone objects, perhaps used in religious rituals. The villagers were farmers, hunters and fishermen, capable of producing items of beauty and sophistication with rudimentary technology. No weapons have been found and the settlement was not in a readily defended location, suggesting a peaceful life.”
it is the moral restraints, as you put it (chains as is see it) that has caused the great harm to society that we are now witnessing… work in those times meant that one never had to go through a 3rd party (agency) ie get defacto permission to work, and get money to buy vitals of life (earn)…work used to be the act of wondering about, and the activity of hunting and gathering what people needed to get their vitality giving vitals of life…one must also bare in mind that the knowledge to build skara brea significantly predates skara brea’s construction very likely meaning that human being’s lived in peace, until the onset of formalized agriculture/the idea of profiting from the toils of another’s labour and ownership of resources …the feudal runrig system is a good example of this…the ownership of the others (my) labour cause’s massive resentment from the owned person, and moral restraints (chains, codes et al) were created to counter that resentment, a practice so ingrained that few bother to question it’s validity…for example see “for your own good” dr alice miller… see the tales of robin hood…the magna carta, the natural rights of man, were an attempt to re-balance recover, restore, loss of rights to forage hunt and gather for your heart, our history is steeped in this attempted redress of natural rights…rabbie burns wrote extensively on the subject….we have been driven into cities and disconnected from all hope of achieving those natural rights…i firmly believe that oliver cromwell, wished to restore the natural rights of man, but didn’t understand the consequences of the power vacuum, caused by revolution….

As few of the wordpress contributors on here will know, i’m 2 and a bit years on from being a hostel guest myself.

There’s a wide range of folk in them places, and often you find yourself in a group conversing, and one person will walk away… the group says in lowered tones ” How the fuck has he ended up in here?”
Ranging from addicts, abuse victims, police or probation bail, walter mittys, victims of DWP sanctioning / reforms, one time high flyers in the business world, asylum seekers/ survivors of war zones, and the plain old unlucky. Not forgetting the odd one or two who are just not equipped to survive in society

The conversations in my experience around the lunch table and common rooms never veered towards ascribing blame in others for the situation we found ourself in.
Though of course it by no means says that individuals never thought as much in private.

And as for the second caveat, i have an addict in my close family, and though an annoying twat as addicts are while off their tits, when not on the gear he’s erudite, lucid funny witty intelligent and very popular.
I’ve spent a couple of decades understanding his problems, and other addicts, not pointing the finger.
Though ill admit – in some of my darker moments i’ve thought to myself “pull your fucking finger out and sort yourself out”, but they are just that, darker moments at the bottom of an emotional well, they soon pass.
A momentary aberration, not a general outlook on life

Not an outburst in the most notorious rabble rousing example of the national press either. One wonders why he saw fit to include that titbit

BTW, i can understand Birds bitterness for his alleged childhood predicament, but id give him a bit more respect due if he could see his father was also a victim.
The finger of blame points squarely at a society that assigns normality to a family turfed out on to the streets over a few quid rent

Ulysses – It’s getting a bit off-topic, but I’m not sure we can say that drug/alcohol addicts are victims, because they are in control of their own actions. It may well be that they became addicted because they were victims of abuse or neglect in the past. The two are often tied together, and helping deal with one often helps to deal with the other. On the other hand some people become alcoholic for purely selfish hedonistic reasons.

Nugs, he stole the idea for The Big Issue from Anita Roddick’s husband who had a similar project running in New York in the 1980s I believe.

I don’t think that The Big Issue does much good at all in reality. Those who sign up (or are approved) to sell it are governed with a set of cast iron rules. It pays the sellers only slightly more than fuck all. Judging by the experiences of those who do sell it, it’s a pretty dehumanising experience.

As a publication it’s overpriced and contains more adverts than articles, the articles generally being less well written than the adverts.

Nugs, I have my doubts about the profit vendors can make. I wonder if they get a full refund for the issues that they don’t sell?

I used to chat to a woman who sold the Big Issue outside a local Waitrose, she hated doing it there, but it was the pitch she was given. We couldn’t speak for long as she had to keep an eye out for likely buyers. She’d had a pitch before, in another town, just on a corner in a street with normal small shops. There was a street market there once a month, which meant she could sometimes sell enough to afford some food. She said she sold far less copies outside the Waitrose pitch and she got used to seeing the eyelids of people and the tops and backs of their heads as they looked down or away from her when they left Waitrose, bags bulging with overpriced indulgences.

She’d escaped a violent relationship, lost everything and ended up homeless in a nearby “wealthy” city. The council wouldn’t house her as her husband had taken her kids abroad, which, without children, means an instant journey to the bottom of the housing priority list She disappeared after a few months, no one knew what became of her, a very few of us tried to find out but to no avail.