The End of America: May 10, 2005/National ID

This is a discussion on The End of America: May 10, 2005/National ID within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; "Is requiring EVERYONE in the US to register and have a NATIONAL ID mark because we are being flooded with illegal aliens because the government ...

HotGuns

"Is requiring EVERYONE in the US to register and have a NATIONAL ID mark because we are being flooded with illegal aliens because the government REFUSES to act the right thing to do?"

I think it's more because the govt thinks we need the cheap labor & that Americans won't want to pay $7.00 for a head of lettuce or $50.00 for a plain white T~shirt.
It's also political suicide for either party to target any immigration group for entry restriction. You can't take the politics out of politics & that is why we don't have the American version of "The Great Wall Of China" on our borders. The alternative is to let the people in to work & know "who" and (I guess) where they are.
It's admittedly quite a sticky business with some serious potential for "possible" abuse.
I "For Sure" don't drink the Government Kool~Aide but, they are really not going to find out any more about you than they can already. It's just a more efficient and quicker way of putting all those random already accessible pieces together.
If the system gets abused there will be MORE than the Pro~Gunners that are Screaming about it.
The Liberal Left will be the first ones to have it canned...big time.
And for once the Lib~Antis and the pro~gunners will have a real common fight.
And...we'll be standing there "up in arms" protesting right beside Babs Boxer & Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition.

...If the system gets abused there will be MORE than the Pro~Gunners that are Screaming about it.
The Liberal Left will be the first ones to have it canned...big time.
And for once the Lib~Antis and the pro~gunners will have a real common fight.
And...we'll be standing there "up in arms" protesting right beside Babs Boxer & Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition.

I trust that my government will continue to be ineffective, inefficient and inept, so I am not too worried about how the ID will be used. I am worried about how they are going to botch it up. But I can't agree with the above statement.

The Liberal Left won't have it canned as long as the freedoms being abused are the abuses they agree with. If the government were cracking down on politically incorrect speech, or gun ownership, or any of the other rights violations that the Left has called for, then the Liberal Left would be leading the cheering, because the loss of freedom is being driven by the socialist mindset of the Liberal Left. As long as they are receiving the benefits of the elite, we will not have common cause.

Pertaining to the topic of illegals crossing the border, allow me to throw this on the fire:

Border Patrol told to stand down in Arizona

By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

U.S. Border Patrol agents have been ordered not to arrest illegal aliens along the section of the Arizona border where protesters patrolled last month because an increase in apprehensions there would prove the effectiveness of Minuteman volunteers, The Washington Times has learned.
More than a dozen agents, all of whom asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, said orders relayed by Border Patrol supervisors at the Naco, Ariz., station made it clear that arrests were "not to go up" along the 23-mile section of border that the volunteers monitored to protest illegal immigration.

"It was clear to everyone here what was being said and why," said one veteran agent. "The apprehensions were not to increase after the Minuteman volunteers left. It was as simple as that."
Another agent said the Naco supervisors "were clear in their intention" to keep new arrests to an "absolute minimum" to offset the effect of the Minuteman vigil, adding that patrols along the border have been severely limited.
Border Patrol Chief David V. Aguilar at the agency's Washington headquarters called the accusations "outright wrong," saying that supervisors at the Naco station had not blocked agents from making arrests and that the station's 350 agents were being "supported in carrying out" their duties.
"Border Patrol agents are the front line of defense against terrorism," Chief Aguilar said, adding that the 11,000 agents nationwide are "meeting that challenge, head-on ... as daunting a task as that may sound."
The chief -- a former head of the agency's Tucson sector, which includes the Naco station -- said that with the world watching the Arizona border because of the Minuteman Project, agents in Naco "demonstrated flexibility and resilience in carrying out their critical homeland security duties and responsibilities."
But Rep. Tom Tancredo, Colorado Republican, yesterday said "credible sources" within the Border Patrol also had told him of the decision by Naco supervisors to keep new arrests to a minimum, saying he was angry but not surprised.
"It's like telling a cop to stand by and watch burglars loot a store but don't arrest any of them," he said. "This is another example of decisions being made at the highest levels of the Border Patrol that are hurting morale and helping to rot the agency from within.
"I worry about our efforts in Congress to increase the number of agents," he said. "Based on these kinds of orders, we could spend the equivalent of the national debt and never have secure borders."
Mr. Tancredo, chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, blamed the Bush administration for setting an immigration enforcement tone that suggests to those enforcing the law that he is not serious about secure borders.
"We need to get the president to come to grips with the seriousness of the problem," he said. "I know he doesn't like to utter the words, 'I was wrong,' but if we have another incident like September 11 by people who came through our borders without permission, I hope he doesn't have to say 'I'm sorry.' "
During the Minuteman vigil, Border Patrol supervisors in Arizona discounted their efforts, saying a drop in apprehensions during their protest was because of the Mexican government's deployment of military and police south of the targeted area and a new federal program known as the Arizona Border Control Initiative that brought manpower increases to the state.
The Naco supervisors blamed the volunteers for unnecessarily tripping sensors, disturbing draglines and interfering with the normal operations of the agents. They said that their impact on illegals was "negligible" and that civilians should leave immigration enforcement "to the professionals."
Several field agents credited the volunteers with cutting the flow of illegal aliens in the targeted Naco area, saying the number of apprehended illegals dropped from an average of 500 a day to less than 15 a day.
More than 850 volunteers, in a protest of the lax immigration enforcement policies of the White House and Congress, sought to reduce the flow of illegal aliens along a popular immigration corridor on the Arizona-Mexico border near Naco by reporting illegals to the Border Patrol as they crossed into the United States.
Their goal was to show that increased manpower on the border would effectively deter illegal immigration. Organizers said the protest resulted in Border Patrol arrests of 349 illegal aliens.
Area residents, in a half-page ad in the Sunday edition of the Sierra Vista Herald, told the volunteers: "Thanks for doing what our government won't -- close the border to illegal aliens. It was the quietest month we've had in many years ... You made us feel safe because the border was closed."

Interesting times we live in. I think a few people need to be hauled up on charges for derilection of duty.

U.S. Border Patrol agents have been ordered not to arrest illegal aliens along the section of the Arizona border where protesters patrolled last month because an increase in apprehensions there would prove the effectiveness of Minuteman volunteers, The Washington Times has learned.
More than a dozen agents, all of whom asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, said orders relayed by Border Patrol supervisors at the Naco, Ariz., station made it clear that arrests were "not to go up" along the 23-mile section of border that the volunteers monitored to protest illegal immigration

Well well...
perhaps there is more to the big picture than most folks want to know about...

let the illegals SWARM into the country unmolested. Eventually the average Joe is gonna get pissed and call for something to be done. OH WAIT...lets have a national ID so we can "know" who everyone is.

Yeah...that'll "fix" em alright....

"Thanks for doing what our government won't -- close the border to illegal aliens. It was the quietest month we've had in many years ... You made us feel safe because the border was closed."

Anyone with half of a brain can see that there is more than meets the eye here.

Well, I've been listening to probably nearly 1,000 various rants over the course of my lifetime from all sorts of assorted "Experts"
Give me about three solid days of thinking about nothing else & I could probably remember nearly all of them.
The polar Ice Caps are melting...the oceans are dying...the world will be completely overpopulated by 2010...our oil reserves and "fossil fuels" will be gone by 2002...Global Warming VS. Global Cooling...the ozone layer was supposed to be gone...what?? - five years ago...the millennium sunspots will disrupt everything on Planet Earth...Y2K....All the planes are going fall from the sky due to electromagnetic pulses. Cell phones cause brain cancer. The rain forests should be totally gone by now too...No clean water to drink...Eggs will kill you - Coffee will kill you - Wine will kill you - Butter will kill you - Red meat will kill you - Vitamins are bad for you...no they're good for you. Living next to high voltage power lines will slowly kill you.
Flouride in the water is killing our children. California will fall into the ocean.
Mad Cow Disease will destroy the US Beef Industry...The Hale-Bopp Comet is coming - TV will destroy your vision - UV Radiation will give everybody skin cancer - Our nations blood supply is tainted - We'll all be dead from asbestos particles that are everywhere in the air...and who could forget deadly RADON GAS? - And lead poisoning for everybody that just can't resist eating the paint chips off their walls - and let's not forget those mysterious cattle mutilations - and actually, the U.S. Economy should have totally crashed 15 years ago - and we were totally DOOMED once we went off of the Gold Standard...& remember silver hitting $80.00 an ounce? - I Don't know...Air pollution is killing all the trees - KILLER BEES were going to sting everybody to death - Aluminum pots and pans cause Alzheimer's Disease - According to the NRA we should have lost ALL of our firearms 6 different times already!
The National Instant Check System was supposed to be the death toll to every gun owner everywhere.
The Earth was actually supposed to "flip" on it's axis & toss us into the next ice age. You guys want 500 more?
I remember when people got all spazzed out when they had to have an ordinary photo taken for their doggone photo drivers license.
Forgive me for taking the Real ID Card "scare" with a huge grain of salt.
No Wait...forget the salt...that will kill you too.

Euclidean

We Agree. But, they already have that info.
On a more positive note...if Govt actually ever starts putting innocent Americans in the crosshairs then as far as I'm concerned it will be like 1812 all over again and if....I can still stand up (if and when) that fateful day ever arrives...I'll be standing right there beside you.
Concerning the overall "quality" of the United States Citizenry...we are probably headed for the fate of the Aztecs, Mayans & the Roman Empire anyway.
I DO believe that American Society has already reached its plateau & has started down the opposite side & slipping into The Valley Of The Kings.
Just my "gut feeling" personal opinion.

I don't subscribe to panic, and I don't think National ID cards
are gonna happen today, but I do pay attention to the "worldly-minded"
idiots that are in charge of running our beloved country, and there is a
defnite pattern emerging....I can recall the Nat ID topic cropping up in
the late 80's, but it didn't stay news worthy....but believe it there are
folks out there that have this on their agenda and won't stop pressing it
until it is a done deal. There are obvious pros and cons like with any issue,
but don't be fooled in thinking this is one that is just gonna go away....take
a look at the bigger picture of where our Govt folks are driving us....Bush too,
and I voted for him....we're a "Global Society" if you buy into that ilk....take a
look at the legislation that supports that direction. Bush spouts relaxing the flow from Mexico because of the "cheap labor" needed here....believe me there
are plans being laid to essentially make us borderless.

Don't believe the Nat ID is an issue? Just do a simple Google search....here are a few links I snapped up.

Some more from Ron Paul

The US House of Representatives passed a spending bill last week that contains provisions establishing a national ID card, and the Senate is poised to approve the measure in the next few days. This week marks the American publicís last chance to convince their Senators they donít want to live in a nation that demands papers from its citizens as they go about their lives.

Absent a political miracle in the Senate, within two years every American will need a conforming national ID card to participate in ordinary activities. This REAL ID Act establishes a massive, centrally-coordinated database of highly personal information about American citizens: at a minimum their name, date of birth, place of residence, Social Security number, and physical characteristics. The legislation also grants open-ended authority to the Secretary of Homeland Security to require biometric information on IDs in the future. This means your harmless looking driverís license could contain a retina scan, fingerprints, DNA information, or radio frequency technology.

Think this sounds farfetched? Read the REAL ID Act, HR 418, for yourself. Its text is available on the Library of Congress website. A careful reading also reveals that states will be required to participate in the ďDrivers License Agreement,Ē which was crafted by DMV lobbyists years ago. This agreement creates a massive database of sensitive information on American citizens that can be shared with Canada and Mexico!

Terrorism is the excuse given for virtually every new power grab by the federal government, and the national ID is no exception. But federal agencies have tried to create a national ID for years, long before the 9-11 attacks. In fact, a 1996 bill sought to do exactly what the REAL ID Act does: transform state driversí licenses into de facto national ID cards. At the time, Congress was flooded with calls by angry constituents and the bill ultimately died.

Proponents of the REAL ID Act continue to make the preposterous claim that the bill does not establish a national ID card. This is dangerous and insulting nonsense. Letís get the facts straight: The REAL ID Act transforms state motor vehicle departments into agents of the federal government. Nationalizing standards for driver's licenses and birth certificates in a federal bill creates a national ID system, pure and simple. Having the name of your particular state on the ID is meaningless window dressing.

Federally imposed standards for drivers' license and birth certificates make a mockery of federalism and the 10th amendment. While states technically are not forced to accept the federal standards, any refusal to comply would mean their residents could not get a job, receive Social Security, or travel by plane. So rather than imposing a direct mandate on the states, the federal government is blackmailing them into complying with federal dictates.

One overriding point has been forgotten: Criminals donít obey laws! As with gun control, national ID cards will only affect law-abiding citizens. Do we really believe a terrorist bent on murder is going to dutifully obtain a federal ID card? Do we believe that people who openly flout our immigration laws will nonetheless respect our ID requirements? Any ID card can be forged; any federal agency or state DMV is susceptible to corruption. Criminals can and will obtain national ID cards, or operate without them. National ID cards will be used to track the law-abiding masses, not criminals.

Question

You Said:"National ID cards will be used to track the law-abiding masses, not criminals."
What makes the average law-abiding citizen so doggone interesting that anybody would even WANT to track him or her. I honestly AM curious about that.
Example:
QKShooter got up in the morning. Took Shower. Exited home & went halfway down front walkway to retrieve morning newspaper. He had a bowl of Honey Nut Shredded Wheat and a strong cup of coffee (Black w/ Sugar) - He walked the dog. Dog pooed. Then he left his residence and headed for CVS to buy an emergency tube of Mega Hold Mega Gel for his wife's hair. Bought cigarettes KOOL Filter Kings...very suspicious...he told his Mother that he quit (as per recent phone tap conversation) ~ Suspect lied to his own Mother. We got him now!
Bought bulk quantity of dark colored colored T~Shirts on ebay size XXL.
Then he trimmed his hedges before heading up to the hardware store to buy a spark plug & some spray "contact cleaner" for his lawn mower.
Suspect then drove his Mother In Law out to the cemetery so that she could plant some stupid flowers.
Stopped at post office - bought stamps - paid CASH.
Attn: - U.S. Government...track me until you fall over and die from sheer boredom!
Yeah...I know...That's NOT the point!!!...but WHAT are YOU doing as your Everyday Law Abiding Average Joe Citizen that's just so doggone absolutely incredible that anybody would even want to waste time, money, & manpower tracking you.
I mean even if you were "happily married" with 3 cute kids and were boffing the cute English Housekeeper and were out playing strip poker & smoking cheap cigars and watching dirty videos when you while supposed to be in Punxsutawney nursing your poor sick old Aunt Bessie back to health...who daheck would even care one iota these days?
Just wondering.
For sure Not Me...even if I were the head of the CIA.
You wanna go to the gun shop and legally buy a nasty looking assault weapon??? Go buy one. Knock yourself out...buy 2!
Trust me they will already know you have them...even without the ID card.

Last edited by QKShooter; May 14th, 2005 at 12:06 AM.
Reason: Correct Typo