Pressure Point Training

I noticed in the reference library there is a listing of the meridians and pressure points along those meridians. So do we have anyone with experience in this area? Now I'm sure most have heard about no touch knockouts, that's not what I'm after here. Has anyone looked at how pressure point stirking can be integrated into their practise and their style.

Re: Pressure Point Training

Nuttin' like unnerstandin' what to strike to turn the volume onna given technique up ta 11 !!!

Yes, I have experience with pressure points.

It was my personal experience, that I was not originally taught this aspect when I learned the kenpo techniques. Now whether this was an unintentional oversight, or it was purposeful...."I've shown you everything you know, not everything I know" or whther is was just something that became gradually watered down, by people relaying the techniques who didn't completely understand them. (Maybe my initial teachers viewed me as "Corky" and didn't think I should be entrusted with things like pressure points, since I'm only allowed plastic sporks to eat, too?) It is often the nature, for whatever the reason, that information tends to lose bits and pieces with each generational translation.

Whatever the case, I had my eyes opened when I began training with someone who really did understand how these trigger points worked. It was one of those blinding flashes of the obvious for me. They were sitting right there before me, in the middle of our techniques, starin' right back at me goin'...."HEY ! I'm right here, dummy!" I simply didn't know what to look for. It was a true epiphany, as it took what were already tremendously effective techniques and literally just cranked the ol' effectiveness knob up several kicks, with no more effort, just slightly different understanding. There are a variety of types of points, some need struck, some need rubbed or worried, some require only steady pressure to, in some cases really get your partner/opponents attention.

I spent untold time, re-examining old, familiar techniques and trying to put back, something I think probably truly belonged there to begin with, but through some cosmic intervention...was misplaced. (I prefer to think of it that way and not that I was my school's "Corky"! Let me hold on to that much dignity.)

As to the "No Touch Knock out" stuff ? *...giggling uncontrollably..* I have to agree here, that is little more than the power of suggestion. Although I'm sure the loyal students falling down on the other side of the sheets believe it, it doesn't seem to work nearly as well on those who don't buy into the whole mumbo-jumbo routine.

That said, one of those who shall remain nameless, that has now slid to those types of antics, really did understand (and very well) the manipulation of contact pressure points. He's another one of those guys, that everyone's heard of, and most chalk up to smoke and mirrors. Admittedly so did I, before working with him personally. I will only say, that I had a couple of opportunities to work with that guy, and what he was showing was what I had already been shown. He was spot on and when he lit them up, you definately knew you'd been lit.

Re: Pressure Point Training

Pressure point training is very valuable, but I have to say, that "no-touch" knockout stuff with foam coming out of the attacker's mouth is just too much for me.

It seems little more, in my opinion, than power control and manipulation of the mind.

My personal opinion is to throw that hypnosis 101 stuff out, and just focus on improving one's basic fundamentals.

I have seen the no-touch but would have to experience it to give my hoest opinion. I have been knocked out with strikes to pressure points and it is different than getting kicked in the head

I totally agree that one needs to have strong fundamentals first. Having knowledge in pressure points will not make a mediocre fighter great, but I do believe that there is validity to the study of pressure points.

Take five swords, already a great technique. If one were to target pressure points while executing the technique without changing it and make it more effective doesn't it makes sense to do so?

Re: Pressure Point Training

Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss

Nuttin' like unnerstandin' what to strike to turn the volume onna given technique up ta 11 !!!

Yes, I have experience with pressure points.

It was my personal experience, that I was not originally taught this aspect when I learned the kenpo techniques. Now whether this was an unintentional oversight, or it was purposeful...."I've shown you everything you know, not everything I know" or whther is was just something that became gradually watered down, by people relaying the techniques who didn't completely understand them. (Maybe my initial teachers viewed me as "Corky" and didn't think I should be entrusted with things like pressure points, since I'm only allowed plastic sporks to eat, too?) It is often the nature, for whatever the reason, that information tends to lose bits and pieces with each generational translation.

Whatever the case, I had my eyes opened when I began training with someone who really did understand how these trigger points worked. It was one of those blinding flashes of the obvious for me. They were sitting right there before me, in the middle of our techniques, starin' right back at me goin'...."HEY ! I'm right here, dummy!" I simply didn't know what to look for. It was a true epiphany, as it took what were already tremendously effective techniques and literally just cranked the ol' effectiveness knob up several kicks, with no more effort, just slightly different understanding. There are a variety of types of points, some need struck, some need rubbed or worried, some require only steady pressure to, in some cases really get your partner/opponents attention.

I spent untold time, re-examining old, familiar techniques and trying to put back, something I think probably truly belonged there to begin with, but through some cosmic intervention...was misplaced. (I prefer to think of it that way and not that I was my school's "Corky"! Let me hold on to that much dignity.)

As to the "No Touch Knock out" stuff ? *...giggling uncontrollably..* I have to agree here, that is little more than the power of suggestion. Although I'm sure the loyal students falling down on the other side of the sheets believe it, it doesn't seem to work nearly as well on those who don't buy into the whole mumbo-jumbo routine.

That said, one of those who shall remain nameless, that has now slid to those types of antics, really did understand (and very well) the manipulation of contact pressure points. He's another one of those guys, that everyone's heard of, and most chalk up to smoke and mirrors. Admittedly so did I, before working with him personally. I will only say, that I had a couple of opportunities to work with that guy, and what he was showing was what I had already been shown. He was spot on and when he lit them up, you definately knew you'd been lit.

I have heard it suggested that Parker may have had this knowledge. If you look at our techniques through the 'pressure point glasses' I can see some validity to that argument. If he didn't have intimate knowledge he sure had great instincts. I too have been 'lit up' and there is a definate difference to the feel of getting struck, in the same spot by someone who knows what they are doing.

I only brought up the issue of no touch in the beginnign to actually steer clear of that issue and concentrate on pressure point manipulation while doing techniques. The idea of no touch has been around for a long time, longer than a certain American has been talking about it. The Chinese call it 'ling kung jing', roughly translated as 'empty force' and it ties in to the practice of certain types of Qi Gong.

Re: Pressure Point Training

By the way, thanks to dangeruss for expanding the discussion and talking about the different types of manipulation needed to activate the points. It's one thing to know where they are (grab a book on accupunture or pressure points) but another to be able to get them to work.

Re: Pressure Point Training

Originally Posted by execkenpo

I have heard it suggested that Parker may have had this knowledge. If you look at our techniques through the 'pressure point glasses' I can see some validity to that argument. If he didn't have intimate knowledge he sure had great instincts. I too have been 'lit up' and there is a definate difference to the feel of getting struck, in the same spot by someone who knows what they are doing.

.

Can I get an Amen, brothahs and sistahs?

Wow, if those were just instincts, that is some incredible intuitive leaps. I'm reasonably certain he did in fact understand precisely what he was doing. As to why this knowledge wasn't relayed universally ? Who knows? Perhaps it was simply assumed that people got it? Often we tend to take for granted some ideas, that are obvious to us, and we assume they should be obvious for everyone...when they aren't. That is why clear, concise communication is vital for the perpetuation of our art.

Re: Pressure Point Training

Originally Posted by execkenpo

By the way, thanks to dangeruss for expanding the discussion and talking about the different types of manipulation needed to activate the points. It's one thing to know where they are (grab a book on accupunture or pressure points) but another to be able to get them to work.

...and thanks for implyin' I might not really have been our school's answer to "Corky".

Re: Pressure Point Training

LOL, I don't make a habit of it. If I need some 'down time' a glass of red is my choice. I did choose to get knocked out once, only because I was starting my pp study and felt I should know the other side, kind of like the cops zapping each other with tazers (and not at the staff x-mas party). The kick to the head came years ago when I first started my training- a great way to learn not to lead with the face

Re: Pressure Point Training

I don't personally think there's anything magical or mystical about the martial arts; practical self defense techniques are logical and make sense under close scrutiny. To me, pressure point training is just another way of saying you should be focusing on the correct targets for your strikes.

If you apply the proper weapon to the proper target you will most likely get the desired result. The body is a complex machine with different systems working in tandem to help it run. Striking certain "targets" can upset the process....like tagging someone behind the ear. Some refer to it as a "brachial stun." Whatever...hit someone there and 99.9% of the time they will drop like a sack o' taters.

I agree with Mr. Seabrook on both counts: 1) focus on basics and fundamentals and 2) getting knocked out is a bad thing. LOL.

"It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

Re: Pressure Point Training

Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler

I don't personally think there's anything magical or mystical about the martial arts; practical self defense techniques are logical and make sense under close scrutiny. To me, pressure point training is just another way of saying you should be focusing on the correct targets for your strikes.

If you apply the proper weapon to the proper target you will most likely get the desired result. The body is a complex machine with different systems working in tandem to help it run. Striking certain "targets" can upset the process....like tagging someone behind the ear. Some refer to it as a "brachial stun." Whatever...hit someone there and 99.9% of the time they will drop like a sack o' taters.

I agree with Mr. Seabrook on both counts: 1) focus on basics and fundamentals and 2) getting knocked out is a bad thing. LOL.

Re: Pressure Point Training

My Kempo teacher is also a registered instructor with Kyusho International. He holds monthly classes in pressure point technique. People from different styles come to the classes, not just his Kempo students. So our Kempo is well integrated with pressure point manipulation.

Re: Pressure Point Training

Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler

I don't personally think there's anything magical or mystical about the martial arts; practical self defense techniques are logical and make sense under close scrutiny. To me, pressure point training is just another way of saying you should be focusing on the correct targets for your strikes.

If you apply the proper weapon to the proper target you will most likely get the desired result. The body is a complex machine with different systems working in tandem to help it run. Striking certain "targets" can upset the process....like tagging someone behind the ear. Some refer to it as a "brachial stun." Whatever...hit someone there and 99.9% of the time they will drop like a sack o' taters.

I agree with Mr. Seabrook on both counts: 1) focus on basics and fundamentals and 2) getting knocked out is a bad thing. LOL.

I don't see pressure points as a magical or mystical undertaking, though the theory behind the use is based on the theories also used in TCM. I also subscribe to those ideas, i have accupunture treatments, etc. Again, as I stated, I don't see pp as a replacement for bad basics and they won't make a mediocre practioner great. The targets are not so hard to firure out, but one of the things discussed is the order of striking them which does make a difference.

Re: Pressure Point Training

I believe the order in which targets are struck is very important in regards to the principle of anatomical positioning. Is that what you're referring to?

"It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

Re: Pressure Point Training

Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler

I believe the order in which targets are struck is very important in regards to the principle of anatomical positioning. Is that what you're referring to?

It sounds like you are talking more about reactionary postions. I am talking about striking subsequent points based on the merian theories and the cycle of destruction. Rob Broad has posted a basic breakdown.

I have also noticed that Doc weighed in on a disussion of Dim Mak and went into the topic quite deep. I would refer you to that thread as he can say it much better than I.

Re: Pressure Point Training

Those that do Pressure Points for Knock outs follow what is called the Cycle of Destruction. Since different Merridians are different elements there is a sequence to stiking.

Water puts out Fire
Fire heats Metal to mould it
Metal cuts Wood
Wood can be used to hold back Earth
Earth dams up Water

So depending on what element your starting pp is you then follow the cycle of destruction to the next elemental point, followed by the 3rd. When doing knock outs you never use more than 3 points.

the people at Kyusho International seem to have rejected this idea, although they did teach it like this a fewyears ago when I first started learning form them. Also the CMA guys I have talekd to about this have dismissed it as well. KI also used to consistently use 3 points for every KO combo but they have moved away from that as well, and now often use just 1, or 2.

Re: Pressure Point Training

Originally Posted by execkenpo

It sounds like you are talking more about reactionary postions. I am talking about striking subsequent points based on the merian theories and the cycle of destruction. Rob Broad has posted a basic breakdown.

I have also noticed that Doc weighed in on a disussion of Dim Mak and went into the topic quite deep. I would refer you to that thread as he can say it much better than I.

Curious, who did Doc learn from?

Body posture is absolutely critical. Pressure points that are extremely sensitive and effective in one position are completely nullified in another. I haven't heard a KI instructor talk about elemental sequencing in a couple years. Their mantra is "repeatable results" and I beleive they proved to themselves that they did not need elemental sequencing to get repeatable results. They may be working it at higher levels but it is not part of the general curriculum.

One thing I learned about the SL-4 techniques is that they are designed around creating and maintaining postures in the attacker that expose his nerves to strikes; and about creating postures in YOu that make you less vulnerable to them.