I wonder if the jewels Princess Helena Victoria is wearing in the photos below might be Queen Victoria's turquoise parure which she gave to Princess Helena (Princess Christian) for her wedding?

I had been under the impression that Princess Christian was said to have worn the turquoise tiara to the 1911 Coronation and so I was looking for something large scale.

A report I saw in one of the UK papers suggests that Princess Christian was going to wear another tiara - one which she was going to lend for the Cartier display as well as the turquoise tiara. (See the last paragraph)

That got me wondering if the tiara worn by Princess Helena Victoria matched the descriptions of Princess Christian's turquoise tiara.

and

I found the following report perplexing. Does this report mean that Princess Christian had 2 turquoise tiaras?

I'd say they most probably are turquoise as they are rounded and opaque and there a preponderance of turquoise jewels at that time. Especially given as wedding presents as turquoise is strongly associated with love, joy and luck.

Queen Mary, QEQM and the Duchess of Gloucester all got turquoise parure's on their wedding day.

The necklace Princess Victoria is wearing looks very much like the one worn by the Duchess of Gloucester (my posting of pics is still in it's infancy). I believe the Schleswig-Holtstein sisters left a number of jewels to the Gloucester's.

--Previous Message-- : I wonder if the jewels Princess Helena : Victoria is wearing in the photos below : might be Queen Victoria's turquoise parure : which she gave to Princess Helena (Princess : Christian) for her wedding? : : : : : : I had been under the impression that : Princess Christian was said to have worn the : turquoise tiara to the 1911 Coronation and : so I was looking for something large scale. : : : : A report I saw in one of the UK papers : suggests that Princess Christian was going : to wear another tiara - one which she was : going to lend for the Cartier display as : well as the turquoise tiara. (See the last : paragraph) : : : : That got me wondering if the tiara worn by : Princess Helena Victoria matched the : descriptions of Princess Christian's : turquoise tiara. : : : : and : : : : I found the following report perplexing. : Does this report mean that Princess : Christian had 2 turquoise tiaras? : : : :

I thank you for your interesting question. However, I can not answer you...i have no idea.

I have been however, intriguished by the photo you have posted.

Indeed, I think that the 'fat woman' behind Princess Mary, is Mrs Greville. Am I right ?

Franck

--Previous Message-- : I'd say they most probably are turquoise as : they are rounded and opaque and there a : preponderance of turquoise jewels at that : time. Especially given as wedding presents : as turquoise is strongly associated with : love, joy and luck. : : Queen Mary, QEQM and the Duchess of : Gloucester all got turquoise parure's on : their wedding day. : : The necklace Princess Victoria is wearing : looks very much like the one worn by the : Duchess of Gloucester (my posting of pics is : still in it's infancy). I believe the : Schleswig-Holtstein sisters left a number of : jewels to the Gloucester's. : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I wonder if the jewels Princess Helena : Victoria is wearing in the photos below : might be Queen Victoria's turquoise parure : which she gave to Princess Helena (Princess : Christian) for her wedding? : : : : : : I had been under the impression that : Princess Christian was said to have worn the : turquoise tiara to the 1911 Coronation and : so I was looking for something large scale. : : : : A report I saw in one of the UK papers : suggests that Princess Christian was going : to wear another tiara - one which she was : going to lend for the Cartier display as : well as the turquoise tiara. (See the last : paragraph) : : : : That got me wondering if the tiara worn by : Princess Helena Victoria matched the : descriptions of Princess Christian's : turquoise tiara. : : : : and : : : : I found the following report perplexing. : Does this report mean that Princess : Christian had 2 turquoise tiaras? : : : : : :

I thank you for your answer...it was a stupid question because the balcony was indeed for the royal family....and Mrs Greville, in 1911, was young.

--Previous Message-- : I have been however, intriguished by the : photo you have posted. : : Indeed, I think that the 'fat woman' behind : Princess Mary, is Mrs Greville. Am I right ? : : : Considering that balcony was for the royal : family... I'd say not Mrs. G. I believe : it's the duchess of Albany. :

I don't think that the necklace now worn by the Duchess of Gloucester was the original necklace given to Queen Mary by her parents as a wedding gift.

Sketch of the original wedding gift

Yet, Queen Mary was photographed wearing the current necklace in the early years of her marriage, so it is highly unlikely that it is the same as the necklace worn by Princess Helena Victoria. I also think that the large turquoise clusters in Queen Mary's necklace are separated by diamonds, while in Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's necklace there are small turquoises as would appear to be the case in the necklace worn by Princess Helena Victoria.

A more likely match would be with the necklace given to Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother by King George for her wedding.

But Princess Helena Victoria and Princess Marie Louise were still alive in 1923, although it is possible that they may have sold the jewels or even that Princess Christian may have left the jewels to the King or Queen Mary.

The Queen Mother's necklace and the one worn by Princess Helena Victoria are very similar, but my eye is not good enough to gauge if they are the same necklace. The design is commonly seen in jewellery so that gives us no clues.

Below is a comparison of the 3 necklaces.

--Previous Message-- : I think the Turquoise necklace looks more like : the necklace given to the Queen Mother ! : The necklaces in the Gloucester parure were : gifts to Queen Mary herself. :

The Gloucester Turquoise necklace (perhaps more accurate to call it the Teck necklace) is out of the equation. The Queen Mother's necklace is either the Princess Christian necklace or the same design. There are no photographs that I can find online showing either of Princess Christian's daughters wearing Turquoise jewellery. So as Princess Christian had died by the time the Yorks married, maybe this is the source of her turquoise parure, or at least the necklace.

Does anyone know what happened to the tassel necklace in the wedding gift sketch? Or have a photo of it being worn?

--Previous Message-- : MarcA's observation got me wondering. : : I don't think that the necklace now worn by : the Duchess of Gloucester was the original : necklace given to Queen Mary by her parents : as a wedding gift. : : Sketch of the original wedding gift : : : : Yet, Queen Mary was photographed wearing the : current necklace in the early years of her : marriage, so it is highly unlikely that it : is the same as the necklace worn by Princess : Helena Victoria. I also think that the large : turquoise clusters in Queen Mary's necklace : are separated by diamonds, while in Queen : Elizabeth the Queen Mother's necklace there : are small turquoises as would appear to be : the case in the necklace worn by Princess : Helena Victoria. : : : : A more likely match would be with the : necklace given to Queen Elizabeth the Queen : Mother by King George for her wedding. : : But Princess Helena Victoria and Princess : Marie Louise were still alive in 1923, : although it is possible that they may have : sold the jewels or even that Princess : Christian may have left the jewels to the : King or Queen Mary. : : The Queen Mother's necklace and the one worn : by Princess Helena Victoria are very : similar, but my eye is not good enough to : gauge if they are the same necklace. The : design is commonly seen in jewellery so that : gives us no clues. : : Below is a comparison of the 3 necklaces. : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I think the Turquoise necklace looks more : like : the necklace given to the Queen Mother ! : The necklaces in the Gloucester parure were : gifts to Queen Mary herself. : : :

I have a press clipping which says that the necklace could also be worn at the waist and the brooches as hair ornaments as well as a pendant.

I have only ever seen Queen Mary wear the brooches as stomachers. The one with the tassel can be seen as the lowest part of the stomacher in this photo.

It looks as if Queen Mary retained the tassels on the smallest brooch and presented this to Alice, Duchess of Gloucester for her wedding.

What happened to the rope like part of the original necklace is unknown to me, but I have never seen photos of Queen Mary wearing anything which resembled it. I am not even sure what it was made of -- gold or set with diamonds?

Looking at the neck lines of the turquoise necklaces on Margaret & Brigitte and then compare to Princess Helen Victoria (look at her top right shoulder) the confirmed turquoise stones look shallower. As we all know this is often a case of slightly different angles giving slightly different perspectives. However I'm now thinking there is an opening for P H-V necklace could be pearls.

That of course then make us wonder if a turquoise tiara would get paired with a pearl and diamond necklace.

--Previous Message-- : MarcA's observation got me wondering. : : I don't think that the necklace now worn by : the Duchess of Gloucester was the original : necklace given to Queen Mary by her parents : as a wedding gift. : : Sketch of the original wedding gift : : : : Yet, Queen Mary was photographed wearing the : current necklace in the early years of her : marriage, so it is highly unlikely that it : is the same as the necklace worn by Princess : Helena Victoria. I also think that the large : turquoise clusters in Queen Mary's necklace : are separated by diamonds, while in Queen : Elizabeth the Queen Mother's necklace there : are small turquoises as would appear to be : the case in the necklace worn by Princess : Helena Victoria. : : : : A more likely match would be with the : necklace given to Queen Elizabeth the Queen : Mother by King George for her wedding. : : But Princess Helena Victoria and Princess : Marie Louise were still alive in 1923, : although it is possible that they may have : sold the jewels or even that Princess : Christian may have left the jewels to the : King or Queen Mary. : : The Queen Mother's necklace and the one worn : by Princess Helena Victoria are very : similar, but my eye is not good enough to : gauge if they are the same necklace. The : design is commonly seen in jewellery so that : gives us no clues. : : Below is a comparison of the 3 necklaces. : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I think the Turquoise necklace looks more : like : the necklace given to the Queen Mother ! : The necklaces in the Gloucester parure were : gifts to Queen Mary herself. : : :

--Previous Message-- : To bring even more confusion or options to : this discussion. : : Looking at the neck lines of the turquoise : necklaces on Margaret & Brigitte and : then compare to Princess Helen Victoria : (look at her top right shoulder) the : confirmed turquoise stones look shallower. : As we all know this is often a case of : slightly different angles giving slightly : different perspectives. However I'm now : thinking there is an opening for P H-V : necklace could be pearls. : : That of course then make us wonder if a : turquoise tiara would get paired with a : pearl and diamond necklace. : : --Previous Message-- : MarcA's observation got me wondering. : : I don't think that the necklace now worn by : the Duchess of Gloucester was the original : necklace given to Queen Mary by her parents : as a wedding gift. : : Sketch of the original wedding gift : : : : Yet, Queen Mary was photographed wearing the : current necklace in the early years of her : marriage, so it is highly unlikely that it : is the same as the necklace worn by Princess : Helena Victoria. I also think that the large : turquoise clusters in Queen Mary's necklace : are separated by diamonds, while in Queen : Elizabeth the Queen Mother's necklace there : are small turquoises as would appear to be : the case in the necklace worn by Princess : Helena Victoria. : : : : A more likely match would be with the : necklace given to Queen Elizabeth the Queen : Mother by King George for her wedding. : : But Princess Helena Victoria and Princess : Marie Louise were still alive in 1923, : although it is possible that they may have : sold the jewels or even that Princess : Christian may have left the jewels to the : King or Queen Mary. : : The Queen Mother's necklace and the one worn : by Princess Helena Victoria are very : similar, but my eye is not good enough to : gauge if they are the same necklace. The : design is commonly seen in jewellery so that : gives us no clues. : : Below is a comparison of the 3 necklaces. : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I think the Turquoise necklace looks more : like : the necklace given to the Queen Mother ! : The necklaces in the Gloucester parure were : gifts to Queen Mary herself. : : : : :

While I know pearls come in many shapes, and I can see why MarcA has made the suggestion, I wonder if it would be easy to find a matching set in the shapes seen in the photographed necklace.

The Princess was recorded as having worn a turquoise tiara and necklace for a Court in May 1903, just shortly after the photo was published, so I suspect she was wearing turquoises in the photo.

I suspect, but cannot prove, that this is the same tiara and necklace which Princess Christian regularly wore to Courts and other official occasions.

If the necklace worn by Princess Helena Victoria is the same as that given to QEQM in 1923 it wouldn't be the first piece of jewellery which may have somehow been obtained by Queen Mary from the collection of Princess Helena, Princess Christian. The board discussed 2 other possibilities in 2016. That discussion starts at the heading "Some other jewels unknown to me" http://members2.boardhost.com/royal-jewels/thread/1464944159.html

--Previous Message-- : I wonder if the jewels Princess Helena : Victoria is wearing in the photos below : might be Queen Victoria's turquoise parure : which she gave to Princess Helena (Princess : Christian) for her wedding? : : : : : : I had been under the impression that : Princess Christian was said to have worn the : turquoise tiara to the 1911 Coronation and : so I was looking for something large scale. : : : : A report I saw in one of the UK papers : suggests that Princess Christian was going : to wear another tiara - one which she was : going to lend for the Cartier display as : well as the turquoise tiara. (See the last : paragraph) : : : : That got me wondering if the tiara worn by : Princess Helena Victoria matched the : descriptions of Princess Christian's : turquoise tiara. : : : : and : : : : I found the following report perplexing. : Does this report mean that Princess : Christian had 2 turquoise tiaras? : : : :

--Previous Message-- : What if there was two necklaces and she used : one as tiara... : : --Previous Message-- : I wonder if the jewels Princess Helena : Victoria is wearing in the photos below : might be Queen Victoria's turquoise parure : which she gave to Princess Helena (Princess : Christian) for her wedding? : : Very possibly and as a somewhat minor royal who was never married, that traditional filler of the jewellery box, something convertible would have been ideal. : : : : I had been under the impression that : Princess Christian was said to have worn the : turquoise tiara to the 1911 Coronation and : so I was looking for something large scale. : : : : A report I saw in one of the UK papers : suggests that Princess Christian was going : to wear another tiara - one which she was : going to lend for the Cartier display as : well as the turquoise tiara. (See the last : paragraph) : : : : That got me wondering if the tiara worn by : Princess Helena Victoria matched the : descriptions of Princess Christian's : turquoise tiara. : : : : and : : : : I found the following report perplexing. : Does this report mean that Princess : Christian had 2 turquoise tiaras? : : : : : :

Ohhh, thank you for the answer and lovely photos, especially the last one. Even though it's monochrome, it sparkles!

--Previous Message-- : I have a press clipping which says that the : necklace could also be worn at the waist and : the brooches as hair ornaments as well as a : pendant. : : : : I have only ever seen Queen Mary wear the : brooches as stomachers. The one with the : tassel can be seen as the lowest part of the : stomacher in this photo. : : : : It looks as if Queen Mary retained the : tassels on the smallest brooch and presented : this to Alice, Duchess of Gloucester for her : wedding. : : : : What happened to the rope like part of the : original necklace is unknown to me, but I : have never seen photos of Queen Mary wearing : anything which resembled it. I am not even : sure what it was made of -- gold or set with : diamonds? :

Great find Beth! I'm sure you are onto something here and I'm so glad that you haven't given up on this topic. The photo you have found fits the description of the exhibition tiara much better than the cigarette card image. If the pieces did revert to the "main line" and the necklace was given to QEQM and subsequently Princess Margaret maybe the tiara is languishing in the vaults?

I am delighted that you are still interested Stuart as I have found your work on this topic invaluable over the years.

I suspect that the necklace given to QEQM is the same as that worn by Princess Helena Victoria. I am also intrigued by the design of the earrings in QEQM's parure, as I think they could be Victorian, but I confess I don't know enough about jewellery design and styles.

Earrings as worn by Princess Margaret.

Necklace and earrings

I need to find more information but I also wonder if Queen Victoria didn't have 2 turquoise tiaras and that the one worn by Princess Marie Louise (and I think shown on the cigarette card) isn't a turquoise tiara as well.

I think we have a lot more things to sort out about this parure yet.

Next time I am in Canberra I should try to get to the National Library to trawl through Queen Victoria's diaries, although I know that, if she did a sketch of the parure designed by Prince Albert, it is highly unlikely that Princess Beatrice would have reproduced it when she transcribed the diaries.

--Previous Message-- : Great find Beth! I'm sure you are onto : something here and I'm so glad that you : haven't given up on this topic. : The photo you have found fits the : description of the exhibition tiara much : better than the cigarette card image. If the : pieces did revert to the "main : line" and the necklace was given to : QEQM and subsequently Princess Margaret : maybe the tiara is languishing in the : vaults? :