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Has anyone out there seen a dog that would consistently handle a poison bird in a hunting situation that was trained without being force fetched, or without force to get the dog pasted the poison bird and on the the cripple that would be lost if it was not retrieved first?

Yupp. Mine. And lots of others. If you pick up on driven shoots, it's a basic tool of the trade. Very often you'll send your dog for a pricked bird that's still in the air and planing on for hundreds of yards and he'll have to pass a lot of dead ones on the way. On other occasions there will be a few dead birds lying in the open with a runner amongst them.

Do these no force british labs hunt woodcock? Not too many dogs will pick them up without forcing.

Again, mine do. So do the others I see around.

The British trainers have such bad teeth the dogs are having a hard time understanding them.

And the appallingly bad manners of the dogs in the US are all too clearly reflected in their handlers who themselves are easily distinguished by their wobbly fat arses and waddling gait.

Yupp. Mine. And lots of others. If you pick up on driven shoots, it's a basic tool of the trade. Very often you'll send your dog for a pricked bird that's still in the air and planing on for hundreds of yards and he'll have to pass a lot of dead ones on the way. On other occasions there will be a few dead birds lying in the open with a runner amongst them.

Eug

The poison bird scenarios I've seen in AKC events involve sending the dog on a blind retrieve, after it has seen shot bird. It has to ignore the shot bird and get the bird it didn't see fall. I think the scenario you have described involves a dog ignoring fallen birds as it is going to a shot bird that it has marked?

Either or both. On a driven shoot the dog won't see a bird fall he'll see dozens, and still be expected to take whatever line he's given; if you fluff it up in a Trial that's you on the bus home just as Robert described. On the first drive last Monday five dogs picked 120 birds, so one falling out of the sky is hardly a novelty.

Either or both. On a driven shoot the dog won't see a bird fall he'll see dozens, and still be expected to take whatever line he's given; if you fluff it up in a Trial that's you on the bus home just as Robert described. On the first drive last Monday five dogs picked 120 birds, so one falling out of the sky is hardly a novelty.

Eug

Thanks, as another poster wrote it does indeed seem that comparing the trials is "apples and oranges."

Has anyone out there seen a dog that would consistently handle a poison bird in a hunting situation that was trained without being force fetched, or without force to get the dog pasted the poison bird and on the the cripple that would be lost if it was not retrieved first?

British or American or Chinese is of no consequence.

I am not using force to train my dog to leave poison birds. She doesn't get to hunt much, and we are not real advanced, so I can't (yet) answer the part about "hunting" and "consistently." This is the way I learned to teach it from the Lardy TRT program.