"Hawkeye, the only thing I have to add to the excellent responses so far is that nearly anything Super Dungeon can be acquired right now. You can get most of the classic stuff right now - the Ninja Division shop has a package deal for almost everything. They've reprinted and updated a bunch of stuff, though Von Drakk might be hard to pick up. Roxor is available now. Forgotten King isn't hard to find at all.

If you've got the dollars to put down, you can pick up 95% of everything released so far."

That's not what I'm seeing on their site. All the old stuff is out of stock as well as anything that could work as a base game.

This is what's proving frustrating for me. I want to get into this but it seems it's all expansions and no base to start from available.

I did a quick check around teh webbernets, and I did find that Forgotten King (core box 1.5 essentially)is currently available on Amazon. They've got a used one listed in 'collectable' status, which typically means it's all mint, that is currently $75. They've also got two options for new/sealed copies.

I'm sorry, timelocking? Admittedly, I'm a bit tired, but I've helped people with broad audience livestreams in the past (a few thousand viewers at the time)... Maybe this is a new term that has come up in the last two or three years? I'm not assuming that I know everything about current streaming techniques, but I did Google this a few different ways and nothing relevant to streaming came up. Would you mind clarifying? My apologies if I've missed something glaringly obvious.

Whatever the case with the livestreaming, I'm torn between whether we should even care anymore, or if it's time to just call it quits altogether. For those who haven't checked the comments thread on the Kickstarter in the last 48 hours or so, I encourage you to do so. Several posts have made things pretty inarguably definitive -the April deadline, which was promised in their own words as "delivery (models on your doorstep) to happen mid April 2018" stopped being likely around Thanksgiving and stopped being any kind of realistic before Christmas given the inevitable Chinese new year delays with which they are already long familiar. Yet, they've still stuck to their guns on April.

Those livestreams have been happening how often in the last few months? How many have they "oops" and missed, how many times has it just not happened with no explanation until after the air time? Tough not to feel a bit like we're being avoided here, in light of everything else. I'd love to be wrong here. I want to be wrong here. But while I firmly believe that "anything is possible" I also believe that it's highly improbable they've believed the date they've insistently given us for a while now. I would love to find out they've been manufacturing for a while now, but seeing that they've conceded to not starting mass production yet, and not even having a confirmed timeslot scheduled for it as of late last year, it would almost beg more questions if they surprised us by saying that they ARE now manufacturing.

Some things we're left to ponder at this point...What do you call it when a company responds to a question with an answer that they already know isn't right? (Again, if you have even an inkling that April delivery "to your doorsteps" is still happening, read the Kickstarter comments.)What kind of room does that leave for trust after we've been burned the same way by this company, on the same product?Remember when they came forward, apologized profusely, and swore things would be different? How different does this feel from before?

January 21st, 2018, 4:30 pm

ManicMan

Mini-Boss

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 amPosts: 620Location: South East England

sorry, it's not a streaming term.. i don't know if most people even use it outside of the 80s bussiness groups.. basically, shortern version of locking down a time when 2 or more people can get together for a meeting/interview/whatever situration which is then the scheduled timeslot.

personally, i would perfer them if they were people submitting questions, they record the discussion with a moderator to help keep them ontrack, and then releasing them, more then being live because that just creates SOOO many problems.

oh and i do read them KS comments every so often.. boy, there is alot of rubbish stated.. some true but alot of it is rubish, with some big misunderstands on alot of parts...

sorry, it's not a streaming term.. i don't know if most people even use it outside of the 80s bussiness groups.. basically, shortern version of locking down a time when 2 or more people can get together for a meeting/interview/whatever situration which is then the scheduled timeslot.

personally, i would perfer them if they were people submitting questions, they record the discussion with a moderator to help keep them ontrack, and then releasing them, more then being live because that just creates SOOO many problems.

oh and i do read them KS comments every so often.. boy, there is alot of rubbish stated.. some true but alot of it is rubish, with some big misunderstands on alot of parts...

Can you clarify what you feel is rubbish? Because in the last 48 hours, I'm seeing some pretty solid statements with no real rebuttal. But I'm always humble enough to acknowledge that there's an aspect or detail that I'm not aware of. ^_^

As for Livestream vs recorded interviews... I've spent too much time editing video clips, specifically speaking and interviews, to have any desire to see that at all. Recorded videos are a filtered, essentially 'rehearsed' gesture. They're something you get to do when you're on track and your consumers have reason to trust you completely. I'm sorry, but even the most avid defenders of this company cannot HONESTLY say that they've done everything correctly here. Even they've had to begrudgingly admit that. Live streams with interaction make it harder to ignore the real concerns of your backers, you've made a bed and you have to lay in it. Canned responses don't fly.

We had MONTHS of updates where they promised to address our biggest questions -literal, actual MONTHS. Do you remember what they did there? That's right, they answered literally none of the biggest questions. Instead they threw out random rules questions -some of which I couldn't even find record of people asking anywhere in the project comments or here in the forums. Given the number of people demanding to know the answer to about two or three big questions at that time, consistently across both locations, and the fact that they refused to acknowledge those questions that whole time, we have a pretty solid example of how effectively a pre-processed, pre-approved statement works for transparency here. I want none of that nonsense -I want what we were promised. It was promised for good reasons, with specific motivations and intentions, and backing down on that would mean that those motivations and intentions aren't there anymore.

January 21st, 2018, 5:16 pm

ManicMan

Mini-Boss

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 amPosts: 620Location: South East England

1) i wouldn't expect any real rebuttal.. it's a sunday or depending where you are, atleast a weekend, so out of company hours.. the fact that the internet has lead to more and more people expecting out of hours work is both a good and a bad thing.

2) trying not to point a finger at any set person... claims of estimates as real terms (like saying other KSs say that 2 months solid manufacturing (which isn't really a term i understand in that context.. normally it means 'and nothing else'.. but.. doesn't seam to be in this case as large factories do more then one company at a time.. while only giving estimates, claiming it is 'literally impossible' for something and they are refusing to acknowledge that and pretend it is possible.. after alot of debates some time back, they said they will only issue a new date when they can confirm something. So all the lack of acknowledgement means is they do not know. Which IS possible.. is it likely? i wouldn't have said it was unlikely but i cannot confirm that either way, so someone saying via estimates only can't be literal.

2) while yes, I think saying 'On your door' was a STUPID term to use for anything, more so for foreign shipping, I've had some items from america takes 2 weeks-1 month to get from the US to the UK and onto my door, where as i have had stuff from china take 1 week. but people say it has to be 2 months.. so.. that's interesting but possible.. but it's the high end of estimate. claiming it's fact when there is proof it's not a fact in life, it's rubbish.

3) "They are not producing anything right now". the company is producting atleast the backer previews. so that's rubbish. "There is no facturing churning any SDeL produce in the world".. tricky to work that one out.. if they mean the whole compain, and if we work out churning as producting, there has been the steel molds shown, they have been test pops shown, there has been the cut card sheets and numbered test packs done. If this was an action figure line, all this amounts to the test shots and mid-product mockups. missing final product mockup and final product really. anyway, since this statement is the old "You can prove they are, but you can't prove they aren't" situration then it's rubbish to stay nothing is being done at all. "They just won't admit the math doesn't add up".. Estimates in math often don't add up.

4) "lets be extremeley generous and elastic by saying that getting it out of the factory on April 30th can be chalked up" .. "worldwide fulfilment was suppose to be complete no laster than friday last week".. huh? my calander says it's 21st of january right now. I don't think i really understand this one..

5) "All board games/miniatures games that missed their pre-Chinese New Year production window have been pushed back six-month, mainly to June. SPM missed their window as well,"again, while they may have well missed this and it wouldn't suprise me, you miss a deadline, the company moves on to the next client, but this is claiming they HAVE missed it.. we do not know that. We have seen that parts of the factory group ARE doing some work (no matter how little people think it is, the white cards is a sign they are doing something in setting cut sheets and packing tests (making sure packs have the right number of cards, are in the right box etc). So.. can't prove they have missed, can't prove they haven't.. rubbish to claim either way without doubt.

oh as for answers to questions no-one asked.. live stream and e-mail also make up anumber of questions.. so checking with only forum (i don't know what's on the backer only part.. never bothered with it) and KS comments doesn't really work.

also, you don't HAVE to edit recorded interviews.. if someone told that to american late night talk shows, they would be doing better bussiness.. probebly true of UK ones too but we don't have as many.. in fact, we don't even has the great range of programming we used to have in the 70s and 80s.. shame.. all good things ending ¬_¬.. ah, screw them all and just bring back Roland Rat

your using weasel words , most backers if asked would tell you production means game components physically being produced ready for collating into a final product for despatch . Whilst e-proofs is part of the production cycle - so is product idea conception .

I spent 10 years in production planning, if I told my boss everything is ready to go , just press the button then my boss expected - given the time it took to tear down the previous job and reconfig the machines for the new task everything was ready to go.

January 21st, 2018, 10:02 pm

ManicMan

Mini-Boss

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 amPosts: 620Location: South East England

"your using weasel words"okay.. back to personal insults ¬_¬; sigh.. Okay..I'll just repeat a cut down version of something said recently by a skilled american writer, Mark Evanier:

"I don't know if it's me getting older or our intraspecies dialogue growing coarser. Most likely, it's both…but I'm getting increasingly dismayed at vitriol, insults and outright anger. I sometimes even feel that people are being too nasty to Donald Trump, a man I think is seriously harming this country and its citizens. He is also, I believe, responsible for a large chunk of this coarseness…or maybe just for making it more socially acceptable to let it out.

Please note that I am not trying to deny anyone's Right to Free Speech here — but mine includes the right to say I think someone's being rude or hostile or even — and this is often the case — that they're being so hysterical as to kill all possibilities of actual, valuable discussion. Free speech certainly includes my right to absent myself from forums that I think have just devolved into screaming matches…or at least have ceased to be constructive in any way. At some point, many of them just become about some Wanna-Be Alpha Male (even if it's a female) trying to "win" by shouting down or driving away everyone else."

I don't fully agree with everything this writer does, some isn't that good, alot is i think but anyway.. that's probebly worth stating right now..

your using weasel words , most backers if asked would tell you production means game components physically being produced ready for collating into a final product for despatch . Whilst e-proofs is part of the production cycle - so is product idea conception .

I spent 10 years in production planning, if I told my boss everything is ready to go , just press the button then my boss expected - given the time it took to tear down the previous job and reconfig the machines for the new task everything was ready to go.

Long time no post @growlley You had said you were going to put everything up on eBay, and I've been watching. Offer still stands, if you want to move one of those King Starfire, send me a PM.

Hmmm, while I am inclined to agree with the sentiment of "don't jump to conclusions" more or less, I'm also for the sentiment of "Chance favors the prepared" (plus I do like a good devil's advocate from time to time )

ManicMan wrote:

1) i wouldn't expect any real rebuttal.. it's a sunday or depending where you are, atleast a weekend, so out of company hours.. the fact that the internet has lead to more and more people expecting out of hours work is both a good and a bad thing.

I think it's fair to say that Ninja Division doesn't answer direct questions as often as they should. They don't have to, but it does lead to alot of the uneasy stirring within the consumer ranks. Everyone wants to be comfortable so that people can keep purchasing a wonderfully sought- after product

ManicMan wrote:

2) trying not to point a finger at any set person... claims of estimates as real terms (like saying other KSs say that 2 months solid manufacturing (which isn't really a term i understand in that context.. normally it means 'and nothing else'.. but.. doesn't seam to be in this case as large factories do more then one company at a time.. while only giving estimates, claiming it is 'literally impossible' for something and they are refusing to acknowledge that and pretend it is possible.. after alot of debates some time back, they said they will only issue a new date when they can confirm something. So all the lack of acknowledgement means is they do not know. Which IS possible.. is it likely? i wouldn't have said it was unlikely but i cannot confirm that either way, so someone saying via estimates only can't be literal.

I would definitely agree that it's not literal in the... well... literal sense, but contextually I'd say it is "figuratively" literal. I.e. the colloquial term used to convey exaggeration. Contextually, I think a better wording would have been "does not make logical sense" or something along those lines rather than "literal" for those grammer- sticklers out there, but I think we're arguing language semantics at this point.

Reading the backer posts, I would be inclined to agree with most backers that the time frame doesn't seem to allow for proper manufacturing, would't you agree? There is a lot of incriminating evidence towards the claims of misdirection, albeit, not necessarily out of malice. If I had to guess, I'd say it was out of fear, understandably so on Ninja Division's part.

ManicMan wrote:

2) while yes, I think saying 'On your door' was a STUPID term to use for anything, more so for foreign shipping, I've had some items from america takes 2 weeks-1 month to get from the US to the UK and onto my door, where as i have had stuff from china take 1 week. but people say it has to be 2 months.. so.. that's interesting but possible.. but it's the high end of estimate. claiming it's fact when there is proof it's not a fact in life, it's rubbish.

Again, I agree that claiming it's fact is definitely audacious, and, of course, I don't know what goods were shipped at what speeds to you, at what costs, but via my experiences (mostly with ebay cases) international shipping with fast travel rates tend to be expensive, and/or have some sort of shipping arrangements made with said company, something that, judging from posts both older and more recent, I do not think they have. I would have to assume the weight per dollar vs the number of backers alone, even WITH a shipping deal would cost in the thousands to fulfill, and with them seemingly not producing as much retail content, i'm not surprised people are worried.

ManicMan wrote:

3) "They are not producing anything right now". the company is producting atleast the backer previews. so that's rubbish. "There is no facturing churning any SDeL produce in the world".. tricky to work that one out.. if they mean the whole compain, and if we work out churning as producting, there has been the steel molds shown, they have been test pops shown, there has been the cut card sheets and numbered test packs done. If this was an action figure line, all this amounts to the test shots and mid-product mockups. missing final product mockup and final product really. anyway, since this statement is the old "You can prove they are, but you can't prove they aren't" situration then it's rubbish to stay nothing is being done at all. "They just won't admit the math doesn't add up".. Estimates in math often don't add up.

This argument I have to be in the corner of the backers. I say this because The mold pops are old, and Ninja Division admitted as much in the post they previewed them on. Coupled by the fact that the fact that all the molds shown were from all the mold-pops shown (a hodgepodge of wave 1 and wave 2 content) I can't really say there's any proof that new molds have been created since those original mold pops in 2016. The only thing leading me to believe otherwise is test mold they showed of a red/ purple mold pop, still made up of the same miniatures of 2016. If Ninja Division has truly been working on said things, then they should ease tensions by showing molds of Kobolds, the Ember Mage, or anything Wave 1-ish so's to ease suspicions and tension. I'm not sure how injection molds are made, but, showing a mold of those would at least show the campaign is headed in the right direction, even if backers are miffed about the dates.

ManicMan wrote:

4) "lets be extremeley generous and elastic by saying that getting it out of the factory on April 30th can be chalked up" .. "worldwide fulfilment was suppose to be complete no laster than friday last week".. huh? my calander says it's 21st of january right now. I don't think i really understand this one..

That I think has to do with the online backers' "manufacturing" timelines they mocked up. They were basically saying, to meet the deadline that Ninja Division created, they would've had to start... I guess a week ago from whenever they said it...?

ManicMan wrote:

5) "All board games/miniatures games that missed their pre-Chinese New Year production window have been pushed back six-month, mainly to June. SPM missed their window as well,"again, while they may have well missed this and it wouldn't suprise me, you miss a deadline, the company moves on to the next client, but this is claiming they HAVE missed it.. we do not know that. We have seen that parts of the factory group ARE doing some work (no matter how little people think it is, the white cards is a sign they are doing something in setting cut sheets and packing tests (making sure packs have the right number of cards, are in the right box etc). So.. can't prove they have missed, can't prove they haven't.. rubbish to claim either way without doubt.

In this case, I see both arguments. I think most peoples' major malfunction is, the fact that there's radio silence. If Ninja Division doesn't know, they're not telling anyone. If they do know, they're not teling anyone. In the former case, they look incompetent, the latter, dubious. There's no scenario where they possibly CAN come out looking like a good company anymore, according to current consumer- view, and that's sad overall... :<

ManicMan wrote:

oh as for answers to questions no-one asked.. live stream and e-mail also make up anumber of questions.. so checking with only forum (i don't know what's on the backer only part.. never bothered with it) and KS comments doesn't really work.

also, you don't HAVE to edit recorded interviews.. if someone told that to american late night talk shows, they would be doing better bussiness.. probebly true of UK ones too but we don't have as many.. in fact, we don't even has the great range of programming we used to have in the 70s and 80s.. shame.. all good things ending ¬_¬.. ah, screw them all and just bring back Roland Rat

This is a very true statement about the emails, but I think most of the questions WERE livestream questions (even some dumb ones, I DID see them via livestream ) But again, if the livestreams were supposed to be about easing consumer tensions, not having livestreams defeats that purpose, does it not? Also, one would assume that, given the last livestream flukes that they would test a couple nights before in order to make sure everything was... well...in order... Not doing so, again makes people think they are A) dubious or B) incompetent. :3

Keep in mind, these are not all my sentiments, but rather clarifications and/ or devil's advocate statements

January 22nd, 2018, 2:24 am

ManicMan

Mini-Boss

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 amPosts: 620Location: South East England

yep, alot of that is fine. I think people saying stuff as a fact and then throwing acid because not keeping to their facts is just stupid and destructive.

that said, there are clearly communation issues that could be better, though again, with some of the insults being thrown, that would dishearten any one. And it does seam things are gonna be tight if they are going to make the deadline. Since factory reports can be tricky to get (and people have said they wouldn't believe anything but photos), it can be a pain.

I remember a comment about news reporters, mostly ones on TV reporting events live like a car chase, but it applys to alot of stuff.. They aren't paid to say "I don't know". When there is a rumour, you will see alot of rubbish they are saying and repeating and coming up with theories just to fill time. When was the last time you read a news paper article which said "There is this rumour which appears to be true that such-and-such is going to happen, if it does happen, we really don't know what kind of impact it'll have." It'll be filled up with alot of theories and 'possible outcomes' which when you look back at, are completely wrong..

Oh, I just want to quicky put this out here.. lets say for example, i'm producting some plastic figures in bulk with the Chinese group 'CSMFG' who have a few factories in the shanghai and Ningbo areas. They are a pretty okay company who have been around since about 2003.

Mold design with approval before cutting the pricey steel moulds takes about 5 days. Add a couple of days for customer approval.

what's the lead time on moulds? Normally 4-5 weeks depending on structure and size. If i was doing say 4 figures per mould, figures in a couple of pieces each, 4 weeks is pretty fine. That's how long it takes to make the steels via CNC milling and is one of the longest steps.

They then give 1-3 days to do the test molding. This producers samples (also known as Testshots in some areas, or mold pops). This are tested and checked in house to make sure they are fine and allows time for some tweaking to see they match what they are given.

While they don't state the time for airshipping, most chinese factories do this for 3-7 days. They do say they airship samples. So it takes 3-7 days for the test samples to go from the factory to the customer so them to check the samples and approve.

Then mass production starts. This group in question also has capcity for metal stamping, assembly, die casting, packaging etc. so they can do everything else which is much quicker. I roughed up a concept diamention, for 4 figures to a mould, with a total weight of up to 1kg per spur (with moulds) injection moulding, would have up to a 5000 pop lifetime (bascilly means it can be use 5000 times before mould degrade.. this is a fair number for a run of this type i'm sugguesting). each Unit will take 60 seconds to product. That means only useing one machine with one mould, it i wanted it cast that many times, it would take roughty 4 days.. give 5 if they don't work around the clock (which alot of factories do in fact but nevermind). More then one machine/mould can be done at a time.

Having to look at other factories for the time for sea shipping, which is (depending on contract, you can pay more for airshipping on final product but i'll take the cheaper option for sea shipping), that's 30-45 days from china to america with DHL, Fedex or EMS as door to door shipping.

These are some known facts in this case i have outlined. How well they compare to what SP are up to, i can't say. but a good timeline guide. References used are the CSMFG website (and quotation system), Xi'an Tonking Biotech Co. ltd website, the Shanghai Chutyu display co. ltd website and the Hengshui gansheng medical instruments co.ltd website. While they don't all fully meet the requirements for this task, as stated, they were use for reference and comparing for when soem information on times was missing.

So, if i started today. Didn't make a box for them (this can be done at the same time and seams to only add a couple of days for assembly) or anything else, it would take 19 weeks before i got my final run ready to sell. that's almost 5 months. So i would be looking mostly at a May release date. That is, IF i didn't start till today. Any part of these process done before today would speed it up.

Officailly, we can debate bits but officially, Wave 1 of SD items have the moulds made. Wave 2 is also at this stage for Arcade. Some samples have been shown.. Sadly (and this is down to SP commucation problems), we haven't seen a great collection of samples yet though we know a couple have been shown. So based on what we have been told and seen, we would be at atleast the sample stage, just before mass production. takes most of the time taken up and an April date is POSSIBLE.. likely? unsure unless we see or have clear view of Samples or mass production. Samples should be fairly easy to get pictures of cause they would be inhouse, probebly with some guy painting them up for show. Mass Production can be trickier..

But Samples are what i want to see pretty much. Just show in house Samples for wave 1 and I'll be more then happy to say mid to end of April is still on. without it? i don't know. It could be, or it could not be. No-one outside the company knows.

1) i wouldn't expect any real rebuttal.. it's a sunday or depending where you are, atleast a weekend, so out of company hours.. the fact that the internet has lead to more and more people expecting out of hours work is both a good and a bad thing.

2) trying not to point a finger at any set person... claims of estimates as real terms (like saying other KSs say that 2 months solid manufacturing (which isn't really a term i understand in that context.. normally it means 'and nothing else'.. but.. doesn't seam to be in this case as large factories do more then one company at a time.. while only giving estimates, claiming it is 'literally impossible' for something and they are refusing to acknowledge that and pretend it is possible.. after alot of debates some time back, they said they will only issue a new date when they can confirm something. So all the lack of acknowledgement means is they do not know. Which IS possible.. is it likely? i wouldn't have said it was unlikely but i cannot confirm that either way, so someone saying via estimates only can't be literal.

2) while yes, I think saying 'On your door' was a STUPID term to use for anything, more so for foreign shipping, I've had some items from america takes 2 weeks-1 month to get from the US to the UK and onto my door, where as i have had stuff from china take 1 week. but people say it has to be 2 months.. so.. that's interesting but possible.. but it's the high end of estimate. claiming it's fact when there is proof it's not a fact in life, it's rubbish.

3) "They are not producing anything right now". the company is producting atleast the backer previews. so that's rubbish. "There is no facturing churning any SDeL produce in the world".. tricky to work that one out.. if they mean the whole compain, and if we work out churning as producting, there has been the steel molds shown, they have been test pops shown, there has been the cut card sheets and numbered test packs done. If this was an action figure line, all this amounts to the test shots and mid-product mockups. missing final product mockup and final product really. anyway, since this statement is the old "You can prove they are, but you can't prove they aren't" situration then it's rubbish to stay nothing is being done at all. "They just won't admit the math doesn't add up".. Estimates in math often don't add up.

4) "lets be extremeley generous and elastic by saying that getting it out of the factory on April 30th can be chalked up" .. "worldwide fulfilment was suppose to be complete no laster than friday last week".. huh? my calander says it's 21st of january right now. I don't think i really understand this one..

5) "All board games/miniatures games that missed their pre-Chinese New Year production window have been pushed back six-month, mainly to June. SPM missed their window as well,"again, while they may have well missed this and it wouldn't suprise me, you miss a deadline, the company moves on to the next client, but this is claiming they HAVE missed it.. we do not know that. We have seen that parts of the factory group ARE doing some work (no matter how little people think it is, the white cards is a sign they are doing something in setting cut sheets and packing tests (making sure packs have the right number of cards, are in the right box etc). So.. can't prove they have missed, can't prove they haven't.. rubbish to claim either way without doubt.

oh as for answers to questions no-one asked.. live stream and e-mail also make up anumber of questions.. so checking with only forum (i don't know what's on the backer only part.. never bothered with it) and KS comments doesn't really work.

also, you don't HAVE to edit recorded interviews.. if someone told that to american late night talk shows, they would be doing better bussiness.. probebly true of UK ones too but we don't have as many.. in fact, we don't even has the great range of programming we used to have in the 70s and 80s.. shame.. all good things ending ¬_¬.. ah, screw them all and just bring back Roland Rat

You've got some fair points there -this, by the way, is why I enjoy fair discourse, it's good to hear two sides of a story. I'm sorry to see others resulting to personal insults here, it's not helpful to anyone.

I should have referred more specifically to the last 24 hours, but it doesn't seem like you got all too caught up on all the bizarre 'psued-not-speculating-but-actually-speculating-legal-stuff' nonsense. I think we can both agree on that part being rubbish.

The six month push back -total exaggeration, absolutely agreed. That number sounds ridiculous without any other substantiation. I will say that obviously if your product is being manufactured or going to be manufactured in the near future, Chinese New Year would be a reason to expect delays of roughly or "up to" a month -I've seen a lot of cases that justify that one month lead time pretty solidly, but not six.

I missed number four entirely. Holy wow, yeah, I just don't even know what they were really trying to get at.

As estimates go, there's a large set of existing data out there on Kickstarter, regarding similar projects. Realistically, one or two cases isn't enough to justify the likelihood or feasibility of this one taking a certain timeframe. That would be horrendously flawed. On the other hand, it's a good thing that literally hundreds of board games, easily more than 100 with a large variety of miniatures, have been produced with detailed timelines provided along the way (both predicted, and in the case of delivered projects, the ACTUAL time frames). Sure, there are going to be variables, but you can't convincingly argue that the vast array of public data on this is somehow unable to predict an accurate range potential for what SPM is capable of generating in given time frames. This isn't a small or simple operation, there are what, 100+ unique molded units to be produced in large quantities? Actually, I'm not sure off the top of my head what the number is for the Wave I shipment, and I'm responding from a phone, so it's a bit too much of a pain to look that up while writing this. But let's say it's 30-40 different unique models. That's not going to help production run faster or smoother unfortunately. It's one of the (I'm sure many) challenges to producing such a large game -SPM has their work REALLY cut out for the on that end.

As for whether or not they are "producing" things right now -this argument has gotten silly, on both sides. Everyone saying "yeah, they're producing digital updates and showing us cards" knows entirely well that we can ALL see that, and it's not what people are referring to when they say nothing is being produced. It's the petulant child response. That said, everyone shouting "they aren't producing anything" would do much better to be more specific -a point I have stuck to myself, to say exactly what (according to SPM) hasn't begin: to date, SPM has clearly told us that physical mass production has not begun -planning, proofing , etc are NOT steps within physical mass production, they are precursors to it. SETTING MY ALARM and BATHING is a precursor to going to work, but that doesn't mean that either of these is a part of my actual job. It's just as ridiculous. The fact that plastic minis, cardboard, and cards aren't running off the mass production line at this point is concerning. And while, yes, I too can order something and have it arrive here somewhere between two and five weeks later, it's far more commonly on the longer end of that scale, not to mention that it doesn't necessarily have to come in on a large freight boat. Also, it's something already made, just waiting to be purchased. This isn't a case like that, shipping direct to backers from China would be insanely expensive for SPM.

The concern is this -I can't realistically think of a logical way that, giving SPM the benefit of the doubt, Wave I will reach our doorsteps in April as promised. With the shutdown, the fact that most factories are booked out months in advance, and the typical time for overseas transit, plus customs, plus a distribution hub... We would really need to see something at least started, or MAYBE a specific start date for physical manufacturing. If someone came in here, or onto the project page this week, and said "Actually, we started mass production, here are pics of Wave I minis rolling off the line, here are cards being printed off, here are boxes being assembled..." I would be so incredibly happy to be proven wrong like that. But going back to the statement that anything is possible... We still live in a world where this is beyond unlikely, and that world, the one we all live in, is also the one where SPM is fully aware -more aware than we are, that this isn't where things need to have progressed to meet their now third promised fulfillment date just for the first 1/3 of the product. Whether you love or hate SPM, that's not a good place for the to be. I like this series -a LOT. And I was bummed to have missed the FK Kickstarter for all the bonuses. I've personally put together a functional companion app just for myself to make the current game and this upcoming product playable much more easily with less table space -I've even contacted employees directly to see if the company might be interested in utilizing my personal app in any official capacity. I'm personally pretty invested in the success of this project, so I WANT to be positive, and in many cases I am. But it's hard not to feel like with the things that we do know, the things that they have told us, and the fall off back to the same sort of communication we were getting a year ago... Well, it's hard to feel like this is a good place right now. I'm sincerely hoping that we see Wave I start physical mass production soon, or at the very least an announced date that they have locked in with their factory of choice.

January 22nd, 2018, 2:31 pm

ManicMan

Mini-Boss

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 amPosts: 620Location: South East England

good estimate on unique molds for wave 1.. i think it's about 32 uniques (which is the two warbands, core box and 2 mini-boss/heroes).

I'll pretty much go along with all your post ^_^ though I really don't remember any official comment about physical production of figures not yet starting.. We have seen the eproofs of the cards of course, but while they should be done fairly close together, they could still do final proofing on the cards while figures are being producted.. Can you post the quote (or better the URL) to where they said physical production on figures haven't started yet? it can wait as, like you said, you are on your phone.

While some of them photos would be great, i doubt boxes assembled would be till more the time the figures have been molded. Some factories can be iffy about getting photos of the shop floor, even more without 'prep work' on there part (like, "we aren't gonna show you half a box of plastic parts.. only when they are all cast will we take time to photo that").

Like i said before, last comments about dates has been 'we have screwed up before, we don't want to tell a new date until we are sure it's right'.. doesn't fully stop them saying if they know they will miss the date.. hell, it's possible that the factory is just not saying anything to them.. not 100% likely but it is possible. God knows the problem we have in one of my 'jobs' with talking to a place just a couple of miles down the road.. on our backs to send back forms within a couple of days of getting them, but they take MONTHS (in some cased longer) to get the forms to us in the first place... trying dealing with that when you have a few thousand miles gap.

though things were.. better, Soda pop have never been fantastic with communication.. websites greatly out of date, products lists missing, upcoming events and releases out of date etc..

I've been able to keep myself fairly busy on the gaming front (if you check the painting and modeling section you can see some of why) and also a bunch of new figures i've done and made for SD. all figures other people designed.. i worked out 1 pet, 3 new heroes, 1 Miniboss and two spawning points (one with 7 figures, one with 8).

anyway.. yeah, really do want comfirmation of injecting molding having started. Photos would be great, but other source semi-possible.

Or how about this? Get them to agree to a view internet (e-mail or messenger like Tox) interview with a third party. Someone that will ask some hard questions but won't blow a fuse at them. With Live video feed, it's way too easy to pick and choose questions to answer, there is no modurator on them things either so nothing to keep people in line on either end (i haven't fully kept up with the feeds cause they are out of my timezone for mostly boring talk like that with strong accents at times, but i take it you do get the youtuber gits around? all this "Hey, i'm the first person to post! Now i've got my Lame Claim to Fame!") so that are semi-pointless.. Also.. i'm not 100% sure on how it fully works but.. they are talking.. people are posting text.. every so often they have to stop and read what is being typed at them.. if alot of people typing, a large amount of stuff is gonna get lost.. very bad way of doing it..

good estimate on unique molds for wave 1.. i think it's about 32 uniques (which is the two warbands, core box and 2 mini-boss/heroes).

I'll pretty much go along with all your post ^_^ though I really don't remember any official comment about physical production of figures not yet starting.. We have seen the eproofs of the cards of course, but while they should be done fairly close together, they could still do final proofing on the cards while figures are being producted.. Can you post the quote (or better the URL) to where they said physical production on figures haven't started yet? it can wait as, like you said, you are on your phone.

While some of them photos would be great, i doubt boxes assembled would be till more the time the figures have been molded. Some factories can be iffy about getting photos of the shop floor, even more without 'prep work' on there part (like, "we aren't gonna show you half a box of plastic parts.. only when they are all cast will we take time to photo that").

Like i said before, last comments about dates has been 'we have screwed up before, we don't want to tell a new date until we are sure it's right'.. doesn't fully stop them saying if they know they will miss the date.. hell, it's possible that the factory is just not saying anything to them.. not 100% likely but it is possible. God knows the problem we have in one of my 'jobs' with talking to a place just a couple of miles down the road.. on our backs to send back forms within a couple of days of getting them, but they take MONTHS (in some cased longer) to get the forms to us in the first place... trying dealing with that when you have a few thousand miles gap.

though things were.. better, Soda pop have never been fantastic with communication.. websites greatly out of date, products lists missing, upcoming events and releases out of date etc..

I've been able to keep myself fairly busy on the gaming front (if you check the painting and modeling section you can see some of why) and also a bunch of new figures i've done and made for SD. all figures other people designed.. i worked out 1 pet, 3 new heroes, 1 Miniboss and two spawning points (one with 7 figures, one with 8).

anyway.. yeah, really do want comfirmation of injecting molding having started. Photos would be great, but other source semi-possible.

Or how about this? Get them to agree to a view internet (e-mail or messenger like Tox) interview with a third party. Someone that will ask some hard questions but won't blow a fuse at them. With Live video feed, it's way too easy to pick and choose questions to answer, there is no modurator on them things either so nothing to keep people in line on either end (i haven't fully kept up with the feeds cause they are out of my timezone for mostly boring talk like that with strong accents at times, but i take it you do get the youtuber gits around? all this "Hey, i'm the first person to post! Now i've got my Lame Claim to Fame!") so that are semi-pointless.. Also.. i'm not 100% sure on how it fully works but.. they are talking.. people are posting text.. every so often they have to stop and read what is being typed at them.. if alot of people typing, a large amount of stuff is gonna get lost.. very bad way of doing it..

As for the part about not yet having a time slot locked down for physical manufacturing, I did a cursory glance through the comments page (let it reload about a month back), because that's the easiest one to get all in one screen for text searching. Obviously there are any number of phrases or terms that could have been used to say it, so I will probably crack at that tomorrow when I have a bit more time. If memory serves, it was in one of their video updates, which (as far as I know) aren't transcribed to direct text. Might put them on in the background while I work and try to keep an open ear for mention of it, because now it's actually bugging me.

What I can say to support the statement is this: It's been said in literally dozens of comments here and on the Kickstarter page -specifically even ones which @Justin has responded to. He has corrected things and answered questions from those comments, but he has never made any attempt to correct that statement (yes, even in the cases where he is replying directly to another user's comment/post). So while I will see about finding the exact location where the statement originated, it's more to satisfy my own irritation at wanting to retrace things, than a concern of any validity there. Obviously if this is incorrect or has changed, Justin will hopefully feel free to correct me once he is ready to return ( I understand he has suffered a recent family loss, and wish him all the best in the many ways one must deal with that.)

I'll go through the updates posted since September (it could have been anywhere in there for all I know), I can probably do that Tuesday. The video will probably have to wait until Wednesday, as I will be in a long in-person meeting most of the day on Tuesday. If and when I locate the specific mention, I'll be sure to let you know right away.

I finally got my 'hobby craft' area accessible again, so I'm personally hoping to finish painting the original core SDE box -its been sitting at about 90% done for way too long, largely due to some discouragement with the status of this project. Hard to stay motivated when the latest major release is behind with what feels like no end in sight. But, if I can get this first core totally painted, I can at least move on to some other smaller titles that don't have a terrifying number of miniatures that also need to be glued together, lol. Worked out well enough when I took a break to do the hero minis for "Mice & Mystics" recently.

I have a difficult time imagining that the factory wouldn't send manufacturing photos to SPM while physical manufacturing is underway... When this sort of thing is being handled internationally, the buyers tend to expect some kind of evidence that work is going, and manufacturers are probably more than used to that expectation. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would pretty effectively defy logic.

The third party interview idea has some promise, but also some pitfalls that I think would be inevitable. The concern still comes back to editing, whether the interview is edited by SPM or by the third party, there's no way SPM would just allow a third party to publish whatever cut of the update they want without a review by SPM. From SPM's perspective, it's too great a risk that someone could just drag them through the mid for dramatic effect. I'm not saying that to make SPM sound bad, it's a genuine risk for them. Unfortunately, if SPM has to approve the edit before it can be posted for us to view... Well, that kind of defeats the purpose of a third party. SPM could easily demand that any question, response, or statement they find makes them look bad wouldn't be included in the video -if they can't come to an agreement, then each side would basically be pointing the finger at the other. Even if SPM didn't do that, if SPM let the third party publish whatever edit they like, we would still be left to wonder if that didn't happen either up front or in a "read between the lines" sort of way. I'm not accusing SPM of being dishonest here, I want to be clear about that. But what I am saying is that at a time when a lot of backers are jumping to all kinds of conspiracy theories about what's going on, SPM would probably be accused of it whether they do or not, and it would be a lingering question that could never truly be answered for backers.

There are a lot of interactive love streams out there, with far more viewers than we've seen on the ones for this project. You typically have someone reading the chat feed, and noting unique questions and comments, as well as things that are coming up more frequently with a lot of viewers. We've actually seen SPM do this with some of their own streaming updates previously. It's not a matter of trying to address every line someone types, but recognizing patterns in the comments and questions -"what keywords are coming up more often, and what does the question for those keywords typically boil down to?"

To their credit, a handful of images were posted in September or October, which showed what I believe were a few master miniatures which would be used to subsequently create the 'mother molds' our products will be produced with. But, this was only for a couple miniatures, and it's been months since we've seen much of anything aside from digital layouts of the manuals and cards. That's really the root of my concern, and I suspect it is for most people. We all want to see plastic going into and coming out of molds for our shiny new games.

I'm sure @Justin can clear some of this up for us, but again, I don't want to rush him. I know he's been through a lot recently, so it may take a few days even after he gets back for him to be back to "Optimum Justin Capacity".

Thanks again for your part in some civil discussion on these items. I've seen so much name calling and ugliness around these subjects, so it's refreshing to have friendly 'academic' conversation without all that unpleasantry.