HERC Gives Tonight's BUFFY ****1/2!!

Buffy 6.4 FAQ

What’s it called?

“Flooded.”

Who’s responsible?

Teleplay is credited to Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie. These two last officially teamed on “Checkpoint” (the one with all the watchers and perhaps the best Anya line ever: “Willow’s a demon?”). Petrie also directs, and very well.

“Buffy faces off against one of her most formidable foes yet - bankruptcy - in a drolly scripted mosaic of money problems and demonic menace. The death of Buffy's mother last season left the Slayer as the head of her household, and Buffy's brief demise hardly eased the Summers' strained finances. So when the water pipes burst and their basement floods, a bank loan is their only option. But, alas, Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) has no collateral. Plus, she's the target of the obnoxious M'Fashnik Demon (Todd Stashwick), a heavy employed by three nerdy would-be supervillains. It's a good thing Giles (Anthony Stewart Head) is back. Jonathan: Danny Strong.

What is TV Guide not telling us?

Willow and Giles have a major dust-up. They both say very mean things. And Xander will risk the love of his intended to defend the right comic book characters.

“She seeks out the advice of a just-returned Giles and indulges an off-camera meeting with Angel (which makes Spike very jealous).

“Buffy’s ongoing frustration is bad news for the demon dispatched – by a trio of bored, twentysomething would-be sorcerers – to the slayer’s home. Buffy begs the demon not to break anything, and winds up drowning him in a pool of water formed by her plumbing leak.”

“Joyce’s hospital bills wiped out her life insurance benefits. Buffy must contend with financial woes AND a demon dispatched by the Jonathan-Warren-Andrew troika. Giles returns. Xander and Anya fight about Xander’s unwillingness to reveal their engagement to the other Scoobs."

Did Herc’s sources get it right?

They did.

Any surprises?

Dawn wears more numbered tops.

Which numbers?

2. And 55.

Any other surprises?

Andrew (of the Legion of Nerdy Doom troika) did not come entirely out of nowhere. It turns out Andrew’s brother was the dude who unleashed the devil dogs on the Sunnydale High prom a couple years back.

What is the Legion of Nerdy Doom up to?

They want to “team up and take over Sunnydale.”

What does that mean?

One suspects even they are a little hazy on the matter.

Their “to do” list:

Control the Weather

Miniaturize Fort Knox

Conjure Fake IDs

Shrink Ray

Girls

Girls

The Gorilla Thing

Is anything added to the list this week?

Yes.

How cool is Spike?

Spike has earned Buffy’s love in ways Angel couldn’t begin to contemplate. Spike is the coolest thing on television. Spike is the man, man.

Does Spike still get headaches when he hurts humans?

If he doesn’t, he’s not letting on. “Want me to take them out?” he asks the slayer this very eve. “It’d give me a hell of headache, but it’d probably thin the herd a little.”

Is Giles there from the get-go?

No, he turns up in the second act.

What’s good?

Dawn’s first brush with research. Xander’s foolhardy integrity where comic book heroes are concerned. Anya sensing Xander’s Jedi mind tricks. (The Xander-Anya story, I declare, continues to manifest one of the most compelling happy relationships in the history of storytelling.) The Legion of Nerdy Doom. Willow’s very hilarious efforts to goad. Willow’s description of the resurrection. The big argument! Buffy’s dialogue in the climactic battle. The reliably super-geniusy comic acumen of the writers and the regular cast.

What’s not so good?

It’s all good, baby. Tonight is why we watch this show.

How does it end, spoiler-boy?

As last night’s “Angel” did: with a phone call. “He knows that I’m … He needs to see me. I have to see him.” She puts the kibosh on Giles’ suggestion that she leave for L.A. the next day. “Not L.A. And not here. Somewhere … in the middle. There’s a place.” When Giles suggests that they first deal with Buffy’s financial straits: “I have to go now. Thanks – for taking care of this for me.” And she’s gone. Executive producers Joss Whedon Marti Noxon.

I agree with Herc that Spike will become much loved by Buffy. She already trusts him. How much does she trust Angel and will she tell him the truth?
However, for a B/S relationship to work for the fans, it will have to be discovered that Spike has a soul this season. I even have a theory about that. Go to my website www.geocities.com/spikehasasoul/yum.html

I would&#39;ve put this on the Angel board, but it won&#39;t load up...
Is there any chance that some wonderful person who happens to live in the Twin Cities area taped Angel last night? I was unable to reach my roommates from work and ended up not being able to tape it for the sole reason that I accidentally threw away my VCR remote. I would owe anyone who could fulfill my request a huge favor. Thanks.

How has Spike earned Buffy&#39;s love, oh that right by stealing her clothes, building a shrine, tying her up and threatening to kill her if she did not love him, plus the whole trying to kill her and her friends plus two attempted rapes of willow(Lover Walk and Iniative) in the last two years. Spike has never taken responsibilty or show never remorse for any of his actions against the SG. You say Spike loves Buffy then he must also be able to feel other emotions too. He never expressed any shame or remorse for his actions to emotional or physical harm the Sg. Till he does he is still and unrepentent killer.
And on earning love. It can not be earned it must be given freely. Even there Spike is way down on the list below Giles, Xander, Angel, Riley. Angel only gave up his life for Buffy so that she could live(IWRY), suffered torture from Spike and/or Dru on at least two occassions(on ATS and WML 1+2) plus saved Buffy on countless times. But more important Angel was there for Buffy in HELPLESS when she was doubting herself, at the end OF WHEN SHE WAS BAD after destroying the master&#39;s bones, comforted her in EARSHOT. In FOREVER Buffy states that she was not sure she would have may it through the night of her mother furneral w/out him. On countless other occassions Buffy and Angel have been there for each other, they have a connection that no one else understands. So do not get in a pissing contest about who has been there more for Buffy, b/c Spike would come in a distance last even even Riley.

I hear you DSN!!! Spike has never done anything good for anyone except Buffy! I think its pretty clear that Buffy turns to him out of desperation - coz there&#39;s noone else around with supernatural strength to lend a hand. I think the only reason she told spike that she was in heaven was coz she had to get it off her chest to someone- and he was the only one who wouldnt feel guilty about her ressurrection.And as to not trusting Angel..? Didnt she tell him things at Joyce&#39;s funeral whcih she sed she couldnt tell anyone else? Trusted him with the Glove of Mittigon, the amulet in Bad Girls, not to drink all her blood in Graduation...

Yeah but when has angel ever come up with a cute nickname like "platelet"? Did Joyce ever meet Angel? She liked Spike. Besides Angel has a soul and can do all that stuff... Spike sticks around while fighting the evil urges. This could lead to another Buffy discussion... Is it possible to grow your soul back? Clearly Spike is gaining his back weekly. As we have seen in many eps Vamps can love other vamps and now humans so they can experience one of the biggies as emotions go. If spike was really evil he could just make a buncha vamps and use them as an army to kill people or drain blood for him or something. So yes Spike has been evil in the past but he is good now. As for remorse... who says he doesn&#39;t have it...he is just too cool to show it (or he&#39;s just a lovable jerk). Lets not forget that Angelus has destroyed whole towns. We all have a skeleton in the closet.

Does anyone know of anywhere I can download Buffy episodes? I tried that ftp site posted on the talkback for Buffy 6.3, but I&#39;ve never used an ftp site before and cannot get it to work. Any other ideas would be appreciated. I live in New Zealand, where we are still slaving through series 5, and I missed last week&#39;s episode where Riley left. If anyone has any ideas, please e-mail me at vertigofilms@hotmail.com. Thanks.

I never like Spike. He basically is a beta male at best. He never was as EVILLY COOL as Angelus and will never be heroic as Angel.
Angelus was straight up evil, even the Master respected him and other vampires fear him. Even Spike does, see FFL Angelus bends Spike over a crate as a sign of submission. During the second season Angelus supplanted Spike as the badass. When have you ever see Spike get beaten before, only from Buffy and Angel/Angelus(on ATS, FFL etc). I love Angelus b/c in one night, PASSION, he showed why is considered an artist. Killed Jenny, constructed lovely death scene at Giles and goes to Buffy to see the reaction. I want a evil villian that actually does evil and destruction and not just talk about it. For Valentine Day Spike gave Dru an necklace and Angelus gave her a heart from a stopgirl and you could see which one Dru really loved. Throw in him killing a maid and telling her that her son will make a fine dessert and you know that this guy is totally EVIL. The fear that Angelus will come back is one of the reason Buffy/Angel brokeup.
Now Spike&#39;s present actions are just warmed over Angel from season 1-3 w/out Spike accepting any responsibilty for his actions or having to deal w/any consequences. The crying over Buffy, moodiness, lurking in the showdows to comfort Buffy is just Angel version 2.0 As the recapper on Mightybigtv.com wrote you can just hear Giles saying "A vampire in love with a slayer. That rather peotic." Which was Giles&#39; desciption of Angel/Buffy from season 1 Invisible Girl eps.
If I want to see vampire/slayer love I will rewatch the first not some pale version.
Spike can be funny and does provide some fighting skills, but even now these abilities have been reduced to Xander level.

...that Herc is right about how good this episode is. Every season Buffy has an episode that seems to stick out in everyone&#39;s mindset, and while part of me hope that there&#39;s going to be an even better episode behind this one, I&#39;m already anxious to see some great TV tonight

After having watched the BUD feed Monday afternoon, I&#39;m convinced that our three &#39;supervillians&#39; are going to have their whole day ruined by Willow. Buffy doesn&#39;t kill humans, even idiot ones. I aslo think taht Giles fears Willow, or at least what she represents, someone who is beyond anyone else&#39;s control. Wilow won&#39;t become evil, but I think while trying to help her friends, she may unwittingly unleash some real nasties. Buffy doesn&#39;t drown the deamon. The way she &#39;offs&#39; him is pure gallows humor. Xander and Anya...very funny. Tara, spike and Dawn...solid supporting characters. I like Tara&#39;s interactions in this one. She comes across as a sort of &#39;mom&#39; factor.

Joyce *did* meet angel! Think: ANGEL, LOVER&#39;S WALK. And Joyce wasnt all that impressed with Spike: Remember she hit him with an axe the first time she met him!
Spike is only ever going to be a poor imitation for angel! The writers need to realise they can never recreate the same "buffy/angel" magic, and should just focus on other aspects of the show....
By the way... wouldnt angel get the shits if he found out that he broke up with Buffy so she could have a normal life.. only for her to end up with Spike?!?!? Ha! that would get nasty!!!!

Here&#39;s hoping they make an explicit connection between Giles&#39; bad magic dabbling Ripper days during his dust up with Willow. Otherwise it just comes off as Giles&#39; being prissy. For some reason we&#39;ve kinda lost the Ripper vibe so far this season, what with Spike&#39;s "cup-a-tea, cup-a-tea" dig and his slap fight with Anya. Yet this guy smothered an innocent with his bare hands just months ago, an act that is helping to drive him back to England (Christ, let&#39;s hope we get a couple of those 6-ep story arcs out of the BBC featuring ASH). Giles can tell Willow point blank that the black arts bring pain, suffering--and--loneliness. How pathetic was Giles trying to hook up with Jenny? How fleeting and doomed have been his relationships? His throw-down with Willow needs to be both cosmic and to-the-bone personal.

Look. Here it is. Angel has a soul, and is therefore a great guy until he loses it. Spike doesn&#39;t have a soul. He&#39;s evil. That&#39;s it. No soul regrowth, no artificial one suddenly appearing, no nothing. Spike is evil, and irredeemably so. The thing is, he&#39;s in love. Remember waaay back in his introductory episode? He was the world&#39;s biggest badass until Dru showed. Spike has always been love&#39;s bitch, even back when he was human. The only thing keeping him from going all rampage-y is the chip, Buffy, and the fact that he genuinely likes the scoobies (I think). Still evil, though, and all bets are off if he gets that chip out. His evilness is what makes him such a great character (to me, at least). Angel... well, I think we&#39;ll all agree that he&#39;s much more entertaining while evil as well.

Marti Noxon said it herself: why in the world would Buffy be pining over Angel when 1)he&#39;s on another network and 2) Spike is standing right in front of her? Hello? What do you people need, signed affidavits? The Buffy/Angel thing is over, dead, finito, yadda, yadda. Anyone with half a brain could see that the Spike/Buffy relationship has generated far more interest than the B/A thing ever did (borne out by the higher ratings this year). PLUS there&#39;s an emotional depth to the B/S relationship that was *never* there between the immature, teen Buffy and Angel. Ironically, this depth is also mirrored in the growing relationship between Cordelia and Angel on AtS -- they have something (warmth, understanding, deep friendship) that B/A also never had. Both these burgeoning relationships are all for the good of both shows, which have to grow and change in order to stay interesting and involving. But I know the words "grow," "change," "move on" are anathema to your standard B/A &#39;shipper and "Spike-should-stay-EVIL!" fan. Too bad for them -- they&#39;re missing out on the genesis of two of TV&#39;s great romantic couples.

I have to disagree with DSN and others over Angel being the true love.
Lets not forgett he first lusted over her when he saw a young 15yr old girl licking her lolli.
Can you honestly call that true love. To me its pedophilia.
As for Spike if he was evil he would be pathetic or dead I mean he was constantly showing up trying to kill Buffy or Angel and always getting beaten up and failing. And that would keep happening. It would be pathetic.
Spike as he is much more multi dimesional and interesting while the chemistry between SMG and JM is far better than giving her another Riley clone.
As for Willow I do wish Buffy would kick her ass I really dislike her now.

Who does Buffy belong with? That&#39;s the quite arguable question, as a glance at any Buffy talkback can inevitably prove. Who Buffy belongs with depends on who the writers decide is best for her. Both Angel and Spike have tried for Buffy&#39;s love -- Angel has succeeded, and up until this point, Spike has failed. They have BOTH committed horrible acts in their pasts. One cannot point out Spike&#39;s murderous ways without acknowedging that he learned them from Angel. One cannot harp on whether or not Angel is responsible for crimes committed as Angelus without admitting that Spike has killed people as well. One cannot attack Spike for doing good solely to "get in Buffy&#39;s pants" without acknowledging Angel lusting after a lollipop-sucking Buffy. And one can certainly not jump all over Spike for supposed attempted rapes and blind themselves to the fact that Angel (as Angelus) as either been seen or admitted to raping some of his victims in the past. Both of them have done truly awful things. Angel is sorry. Spike is not. Both were forced into doing good by various acts of fate. (Angel, by his soul and the events to follow, Spike by his chip and the events which followed that.) Neither one is better than the other one. But at the moment, they are both trying to be good. Having said that, who deserves to be with Buffy the most? Let&#39;s be honest. Angel and Buffy are one two different networks. Perhaps in the future, crossovers will be possible, but right now, they&#39;re not, and a future where Angel and Buffy end up together is unlikely, not counting storyline reasons. The WB this week cut off ties with the Fox production company, in part because of Buffy&#39;s defection. They could very well keep Angel as spite. As for the storyline reasons, Angel and Buffy have grown apart. This week&#39;s episodes -- in which Buffy and Angel meet in a neutral place rather than in one or the other of their respective hometowns -- are signs of their separation. They do still love each other, but romantically? At the moment, that&#39;s unclear. For their romantic feelings to blossom once again, they&#39;d have to be close to one another, something they simply cannot do while living different lives. As for Spike, the man is changing. If he had stayed evil and alive, he would have grown into a caricature of himself and might have gone stagnant. I personally loved Spike as both an evil vampire and a white hat -- because both Spikes were strong, electric characters impossible to turn away from. James Marsters is an exceptional actor who took a one-note vampire and gave him extraordinary emotional depth. Anyone who loves evil Spike cannot throw away his ability to love Buffy as fake and "against canon", since doing so negates his past love for Drusilla and its use as a motivator in many of the things evil Spike did for so long. He *does* love Buffy, Dawn, and quite possibly (let&#39;s see it, Joss) her friends as well. He saves other innocent humans as Buffy does, which cannot be ignored because that was much the way Angel was in the very beginning. There are parallels between the characters, but Buffy falling in love with Spike would be so completely different from Angel loving Buffy. Angel&#39;s tendency in danger is to send his love away -- Spike&#39;s is to hold it close and protect it. Angel&#39;s love is a bittersweet, gentle one, Spike&#39;s a wild, passionate thing. Either way, they have both done wrong, but have been involved in doing right -- but at the moment, there is no choice when it comes to Buffy, there is simply Spike.

Okay, I&#39;m about to go on a little Buffyverse logic trip, so bear with me. On AtS, TSILA, that super future scroll said that the vampire (singular) with a soul would eventually become human. Obviously this is about Angel, cause if Spike suddenly got a soul, then you would imagine the writers of the scroll would have differentiated between the two (gel boy vs. bleach boy). We also know that Lorne on AtS reads peoples souls, but he was able read Harmony, a soul-less vampire, along with countless other demons without a human soul. So my theory is that when vampires are turned, they lose their human soul and get a demon in it&#39;s place, a demon with it&#39;s own demon equivalent of human soul. This d-soul is essentially evil, but that doesn&#39;t mean that is has to stay evil- look at Anya. When she first became human and had a human soul, she was willing to kill a whole lotta people to get her powers back, pretty evil behavior, but she eventually came around to a point where she risks her own life to help other, proving that souls cna change teams. So my point is, maybe Spike can reform, stop being evil. My other point is I spend way too much time thinking about a fictional set of mystical rules, but that&#39;s a little more personal.

to the person who posted "grown apart" what???? I don&#39;t think so. the buffy and angel relationship is still better that buffy/spike. even off camera. the only reason they are apart(excluding the obvious network stuff)is because they know how volital their relationship is. don&#39;t you think that if eventually angel becomes human, that the first thing he would do is run to buffy?

Josh Whedon&#39;s propensity for unhappy endings is making me believe that a Buffy and Spike union is inevitable. All I want to say is Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! Buffy belongs with Angel and vice versa. They each need the other to be whole. Angel does not belong with Fred, Cordy or Darla. Buffy does not belong with Riley or Spike. The whole, Spike will become more loved by Buffy can not be true. I will it not to be true!!! Buffy and Angel forever!!!

Yes! Someone else gets the fundamental nature of the Buffyverse: change = human. Joss has pretty much said it explicitly in interviews, but it is an unmistakable theme. That&#39;s why IF Spike can change he IS human. Also, the whomevers who say that Angel was meant for Buffy must&#39;ve missed a whole lot of Angel eps with Darla. She is his obsession. Buffy is merely--yes merely--his sincere attempt to be good and win redemption. It brought him true happiness and he is not meant to have true happiness, it is not in his roguish nature, which is unchanged across the centuries. That, in turn, makes him less human, soul or no soul. Changes also define the Scoobs to varying degrees which is why they are central to the stories Joss tells. Riley was a static, unchanging character who could be easily jettisoned. Not so the core we now have.

Hey Hercules -- how &#39;bout not posting Buffy spoilers with your Angel story? You know some of us don&#39;t read these spoiler-filled reports until AFTER we&#39;ve watched the show. (And, no, I did not read the Buffy story THIS post is attached to. I averted my eyes.) Also, PLEASE quit bragging about how on-the-money your infamous July Buffy post was. We got it. You were right. Enough already. Jeez. Zak Chase out.

Buffy and Angel *have* grown apart, Angel in particular. The Angel of today is an entirely different person than the one who left Sunnydale. He laughs, he smiles, he&#39;s eating solid food (sometimes when he&#39;s actually in his own body), he gets ecstatic over Charleton Heston double features. When did Angel ever get truly excited about life when he was with Buffy? He loves her, yes, and she loves him, but together he doesn&#39;t feel like he deserves her (or she deserves him) and he inadvertantly makes her cry. They are volatile together regardless of whether or not Angel is vampire or human. See "I Will Remember You." Angel and Buffy had one day of pure happiness, but when it came to the point where Angel gave it all up to save the Slayer (who may not even be Buffy) later in the future, instead of keeping her happy and blissfully unaware until the very end, he told her the truth -- that the day would never exist -- and broke her heart. He means well when it come to Buffy, but he always ends up making the wrong decision when it comes to her feelings. And as for his shanshu, that might be the only time when Angel truly feels as if he and Buffy can be together forever -- but what if it doesn&#39;t happen for decades, or worse yet, centuries? The fact is, the pair have separate lives that they couldn&#39;t just walk away from -- Angel could no more desert the gang or his purpose in L.A. than Buffy could her destiny and family in Sunnydale.

first let me say i don&#39;t give a big ole&#39; crap who buffy&#39;s true soulmate is. if the show was called iwanttobelieve7 the vampire slayer i would go with spike, thats just me. now to the question(s): when people are talking about angel and they type
Ats what does that mean? angel the slayer?slacker?studmuffin?series? angel the series makes sense but, is it so hard to type the two extra letters (el) and spell angel? ats angel. i&#39;m just raggin&#39; on you guys. last question, what exactly do you have to say in a post to be considered a jerkwad loser?
talk to you all after i see tonight&#39;s episode. peace to all.

I understand your point...I just love the drama between the two of them. Story-wise, their intensity just does it for me. I don&#39;t want to see Buffy with Spike because it doesn&#39;t make sense. Ultimately, don&#39;t we all believe that because Buffy and Angel can&#39;t be with each other, no one else will do?

It was good, but it wasn&#39;t "what I watch the show for" good (actually, I watch the show for the lesbians.. so, it sucked). I liked afterlife better.. The scene with dawn and anya and spiderman was hilarious tho. And btw: the way to get money (and get back at your friends for taking you out of heaven) is not charging for saving peoples lives. What you do is invite your lesbian friends to stay at your place (for free; they should be at a college dorm or something), and install a couple of cameras and maybe one of those see-through mirrors on their bedroom.

Don&#39;t we all believe that? Uh, no. That&#39;s why we&#39;ll never agree on this. ;) But that&#39;s okay. Nothing wrong with that, just as long as it doesn&#39;t come to verbal blows. Personally, I thought Buffy had chemistry with Angel, but a lot of things about the relationship made me feel uncomfortable -- Buffy&#39;s age being way up there on the list. (After all, Angel *did* fall for her when she was fifteen, and later on told Buffy that he wasn&#39;t jealous of Xander because Xander was "just a kid" -- a kid the same age as Buffy, btw.) Not that I thought their love wasn&#39;t valid, it was just the strong, romantic first love every single one of us has had. But Buffy and Spike *do* have chemistry as well. And he might not be the best guy in the world, but he treats her with kindness and respect, which is frankly more than Parker and Riley (towards the end of that relationship) ever did. Take last week&#39;s episode. Spike&#39;s first instinct upon seeing Buffy is to fix her wounded hands. Meanwhile, in the shooting script, the next day, Buffy shows the gang that she fixed her hands and Willow says they forgot to fix that for her. They&#39;re not big things, but they are very sweet gestures, if nothing else. Just out of curiosity and not to start an argument or anything, do you like Spike at all, and if so, do you like him better evil or striving for Buffy love?

I love Spike. I think he has the best lines on the show. But am on the fence if I liked him more evil or the way he is now. Love the evil paring with him and Dru. But I like his comedic lines with the Scoobs and Buffy now. Maybe they should make a storyline that gives J.M. another part to play on Buffy. "A suspiciously twin-like professor at her college?" hmmmm I would be open for that

Right. For those not paying attention it is clear that the Spike/Buffy thing is real (for the moment) and that Spike is becoming a GOOD GUY. For those who have trouble dealing with that, well there is no hope for you. But here is the crux of the matter. I have posted this before and I&#39;ll post it again (possibly). If Buffy is the Vampire Slayer, how is she going to deal with this whole &#39;Oh, some vampires can turn good/be saved/ get souls&#39; etc. thing? This means that maybe there is another solution to vampires other than just slaying them. And that Buffy, therefore, has possibly been indulging in particularly amoral behaviour in killing beings that might possibly be &#39;cured&#39;. If this notion is not explored by Whedon et al, then it is a real cop-out, don&#39;t you think? In the meantime, Spike is brilliant Bad or Good. As a Good Guy he is funny, droll, sarcy and the best anti-hero on the telly at the moment. Brilliant.

spike doesn&#39;t learn that buffy is going to meet angel; there is no big &#39;spike is jealous&#39; scene, not even a mention of it. And about the piss contest, am I the only one who remembers spike _helping_ buffy (when he was evil, and in love) on season 2? That&#39;s what [evil]spike would do for love. The whole buffy/angel relationship was like a speech from my mom to me.. The guy turns evil right after they have sex?? ok MOM..

This season so far has been great - even Angel so far has been great. I like Anya and I understand the seemingly perculiar relationship between her and Xander. People don&#39;t seem to understand that sometimes the best relationships are when you can stand your mate as a FRIEND too. My boyfriend is my best friend too - and I see how Anya and Xander&#39;s have been written and I appreciate how their relationship has been handled. Very good stuff. And Spike is Da Man of TV now. Man oh man how his character has turned. Well done by the acting of James Marsters and the writing. Damn those Emmy Awards to hell. If they don&#39;t already know that BTVS showcases some of the best dialogue and acting on TV - then fine. Fine, Fine, Fine.

this was not a 4 1/2 star episode. It was easily a 5! Absolutley perfect. Giles / Willow - "I&#39;m not bad" - loved it. Its so cool that the writers write directly TO the fans. Same with the whole nerd gang scene w/ the demon... "you want to be really cool to the other demons? I&#39;m all about that..." I cant say enough good things about this episode. And the &#39;in production&#39; Buffy Musical clips were hilarious!!!!!
|||||||| Oh, and this server sucks. Whats up with that? Harry has become a sell out to pop-ups and banner ads... sad, sad, sad.

just saw the episode and i hate to say it but i like the nerd trio. they made me laugh. i can&#39;t believe willow threatened giles.
to loosely quote xander "your stocks plumeting sweetheart." willow is my handle for trivia at bennigans and if i didn&#39;t have so many points i would change it.(man i&#39;m a geek) anyway i liked the episode. spike continues to charm. peace to all.

Please, Please, Please make the nerd gang the big bads for the season. They will we the best big bads since the Mayor! |||||||| This will be an episode that we will look back on and quote from... Best quote of the night - "thats not a horn" ||||||| boy, oh boy does this server suck.

This has to be one of the finest Buffys ever. It has been one of the few recent Buffys that had all the elements: horror, humor, pathos, sadness, anger and romance. The acting, writing, and great characterizations were all neatly wrapped. I love the Nerds of Doom, I hope they stick around for a long time. I was wondering if Whedon and Co. had forgoten what made the show so great. Oh yeah, the musical episode promos were a riot. Here&#39;s a thought: if Amy is de-ratted( as has been implied...), might she join our nerd troupe as the darkest and most powerful memeber? It sure as shit ain&#39;t Andrew.

and laughing and laughing, then getting scared of (and for) Willow, then laughing some more. Where to begin? 1) "Burn down the house for insurance money. Plus, Fire--Pretty!" 2) Loan officer: " Property values in Sunnydale have been dropping for several years." 3)Dawn: "If I don&#39;t see the pictures I&#39;ll just learn about it on the street." Looks at the pic: "That&#39;s a funny place for a horn---(waits 2 seconds)---that&#39;s not a horn ----(silence for 3 seconds)". 4)Giles going off on Willow: "You&#39;re a Rank Amature!" Willow: " I&#39;m very powerful so it might be best not to piss me off." 5)The Sunnydale Legion of Doom: if these guys are not based in part on those of us posting on this site (and my past comments about Amy Acker are evidence of my guilt), I&#39;ll eat a hot-pocket. 6) Buffy calling the demon a "Mook". 7) Buffy&#39;s mantra while crushing the demon&#39;s head. Have I mentioned how much I love this show?-----later-----m

All I can say is hello BIG BAD Willow. That little fight in the kitchen friggin rocked on! I think that was a great look inside both Willow and Giles and that darkness was just bubbling up so well inside Willow when she threatened him. SWEET! I have a feeling she&#39;ll make a great baddie when the time comes, but I also kind of feel that she&#39;ll probably just end up burning out her magic before they get rid of her for any reason. Also, can we get any better with Xander and Anya? Man, talk about hitting the chord for anyone who has been in that situation hehe. And the nerd squad was great. But when we first met them, were they just counting money or what? I missed some of that and it kept looking like they were playing their game, but the tv was behind them. Mainly I wonder because they had that dull game face look while they were talking to the demon. Anyway excellent ep!

A de-ratted Amy joining the Nerds of Doom would make sense. We&#39;ve seen Amy use her power for her own selfish benefit. Plus, she might be resentful toward Willow for having forgotten about de-ratting her. (If Willow is all strong and powerful now, able to resurrect the dead, how come she hasn&#39;t focused on getting Amy back to human form?) Warren seems to be the ringleader of this group. I don&#39;t see these guys causing much harm (intentionally) upon the Scoobies, just being annoyances mainly. But I do see them somehow teaming up with the Scoobs toward the end of the season, having to help stop a bigger menace that threatens them all -- Dark Willow. I still foresee that Willow will be saved from herself only when her witchcraft powers are completely stripped from her. This could be the theme for her in Season 7 -- a de-witched Willow having to face her life without any special powers or gifts. However, I&#39;m not sure if she&#39;s the "real" Big Bad, either. I think this person or entity will be introduced very subtly throughout this season and will have a hand in corrupting Willow. But this "Ultimate Big Bad" won&#39;t be dealt with fully until Season 7 when that season&#39;s finale could possibly be the entire series finale. One final observation: They really seemed to go through a lot of trouble explaining that the guy who could conjure flying monkeys was the brother of the guy who conjured the demon dogs which attacked the prom. It seems to me they originally wanted to have the demon-dog summoner himself as part of this nerd trio but maybe the actor wasn&#39;t available, so they devised a brother character instead. If they had simply cast another actor (or the actor playing the brother already) as this character, that would have worked, since most of us hardly remember what this guy looks like. But I guess Joss is such a stickler for continuity that he doesn&#39;t like the idea of different actors playing the same character.

This episode is rated **** 1/2 stars?
This is one of the worst episodes of Buffy ever.
The dialoge was not good, the nerds were horrible and Giles is a presence that is sorely missed on a regular basic.
You can tell Joss has cut back his presence on the show. This season is not off to a good start.
I am hoping the 6th season doesnt jump the shark.
Time will tell.
Next weeks doesnt look any better.

I thought this ep sucked. Okay, granted it wasn&#39;t beer bad bad, but it had no "flow". It&#39;s hard to believe that the legion of geeky doom can cause any terror on Sunnydale. The willow/giles stuff rocked, and the spike/buffy stuff was cute, but ****1/2 ?get real. Back in the day when Buffy premered, I didn&#39;t watch the show because I thought it would be like tonights ep--a bunch of inept teens screwing up stuff and nearly causing the world to end. I realized that it was an intellegent show that touched on a lot of different stuff, and now it&#39;s sinking to stupid guys doing stupid things--and drooling over buffy. Oh, and don&#39;t forget that "whitty" geek dialogue--whatever. Flame away...

I agree, this wasn&#39;t a good episode. I thought the nerd guys were funny though, and the icy exchange that Willow and Giles had. We also got a hint of the resentment that Buffy might harbor toward Willow. Flutist: I&#39;ve been thinking along similar lines myself. We haven&#39;t seen the true big bad yet and this person may have a hand in the corruption of Willow....kind of like the way the Emperor will corrupt Anakin in the Star Wars prequels. I also think there could be a team-up between the Scoobies and Nerds of Doom later in the season, though Buffy wouldn&#39;t do this unless she absolutely had no other choice. Look at things from the Scoobies side: Giles is going to leave again and he may not return later in the season at all. Tara might get killed off, and Willow will likely go dark. That leaves Buffy, Spike, Xander, Anya and Dawn, with only Buffy and Spike with the superpowers. The Nerds of Doom, especially with Amy in their ranks, could serve as the back-up Scoobies who help Buffy to fight/save Willow.

First off I wanna say I am against the idea of Buffy and Spike getting together. That said, I wanna make a point as to why Spike is better than Angel. 1) Angel was an asshole before he was vamped and a bigger asshole after. Spike was a nice guy before and never as bad as Angel after. 2) When Angel was revamped he wanted to hurt and kill Buffy, he lost his concience and soul and showed he had no feelings for Buffy. Spike still doesn&#39;t have a concience or a soul, only the inability to hurt people physically and he is still a nicer guy and he cares for Buffy and her friends. If Angel was Angelus with a chip in his head, he&#39;d figure out a way to kill people (and Buffy). In the current situation, Spike with a chip (that only handicaps him) and Angel with a soul, they are about even. This in my opinion means Spike is a better person for being good because he wants to, not because of guilt or to make things right with the powers that be.

Much better episode than the commercials made it out to be. **** Evil-trio was quite funny, if somewhat ungrateful. **** I, for one, an not convinced by the reasons for the secret engagements - the whole thing seems terribly contrived. **** Nice foreshadowing of evil-Willow... bitch. **** Spike is essentially first-season Angel, which works very well. He&#39;s the outsider with all the answers. **** I definitely consider pre-rat Amy to be more powerful than Willow has ever been - only difference is that Amy merely used her powers for trivial matters instead of the big evil. **** More screenshots at www.gellarsass.com - knock yourself out. WAR HOTPOCKETS.

If my info is correct, Willow will find out during the musical episode. In fact for all the naysayers, you really should watch that episode because it will really be an important one. I have faith that Joss will be able to pull it off, but even if the music comes off as goofy, the revelations alone will make it a must see episode. Of course seeing Spike rock out will be cool as well (as well as Giles who is a really good singer).

Perhaps this topic is becoming somewhat redundant, but as somebody who very much enjoys debate I have to put in my two cents about the topic. I think that a lot of good points were made, but the one that stuck out to me was the foundation that Angel and Buffy&#39;s love was made on. They are your typical Romeo and Juliet, in every sense of play. Romeo fell in love with Juliet after seeing her at a party...he SAW her and fell in love with her? Sure it sounds nice and passionate and makes you sigh, but that&#39;s not love. That&#39;s lust. I believe that love is something that has to be built up to. It doesn&#39;t happen over night. It doesn&#39;t happen in a month. To love somebody you have to know them. Romeo never knew Juliet. Angel never knew Buffy. "I watched you walk down the steps...and I loved you." Buffy&#39;s response to this..."why?" Yeah Angel...WHY? Because she wore her heart on her sleeve? Because she&#39;s pretty? Because she represents everything you&#39;re not? Sunshine, innocence, purity, and goodness? Buffy decides that she loves Angel after their first kiss. Answer me this...how can you possibly LOVE somebody if you haven&#39;t had a conversation with them exceeding ten minutes? Angel and Buffy&#39;s relationship never had substance in my opinion...they were drawn to eachother because they were so different. Angel loved Buffy because she was everything he couldn&#39;t have. I think Joss did a good job later on, but in the beginning...to me...it was unbelievable. The term &#39;Love&#39; is thrown around somewhat loosely on this show. Is it earned? Yes. Sometimes it is. I think Spike&#39;s love for Buffy seems more real then anything she had with Angel. It&#39;s been building over four seasons. There was a spark between them in the very beginning (James Marsters even admitted that he tried to put in sexual inuedos in their scenes back in season 2). When I see them together it feels real. It feels earned. It&#39;s what love is supposed to be in my eyes. Angel left Buffy. He went on to LA and seems to have moved on with his life. He&#39;s happier. He smiles. He laughs. He has friends. THe girl he left behind? Well...she grew up. I don&#39;t believe in love at first sight. That might sound cynical, but unless you use the term &#39;love&#39; very loosely you can&#39;t love somebody based on looks alone. That&#39;s what Angel did. Spike...didn&#39;t.

First off, 2 things on a personal note: 1) a night or two ago I had a dream where Buffy and Spike first kissed (I was spying from behind a tree) and I sensed all was right with the world. (Frankly that love at this time is right. Anything B&A have right now can really only be platonic, strongly so at most. Good grief, B&A shippers are worse than ones for Mulder and Scully! B&S is right because at this point they have a better common understanding. It doesn&#39;t have to get sexual, but romantic, sure.) 2) With 7 eps of Buffyverse per week, I&#39;m pretty much guaranteed to avoid seasonal depression this year. Thank you Joss! Now as for the ep: 3-3.5 stars. Solid, laying the groundwork for the coming season. Willow gave me chills; her progression to the dark side will be something to behold. The Troika: GOOD LORD, the only thing the writers didn&#39;t have them do was surf this website! You just love to be spoofed, don&#39;t ya Herc? :) Xander/Anya well done: A-more and more intelligent and I like the added role of "money counselor", very suitable. I&#39;m thinking she&#39;s also going to get pregnant next season if all goes well. As for X, has anyone thought that he might be the 2nd coming of Christ with his carpentry skills and all? (everyone else is supernatural, why not him?) Spike: yummy as always, though more screentime for him would&#39;ve added another star to the rating. I&#39;m still jonesing about how affectionate he and B were. Anytime before this season would she have asked him that question in my Subject? Giles: Yay! Dawn: Mm.. Other than that, Herc, ya got any Angel spoilers for once? Buffy&#39;s always good with foreshadowing, but Angel&#39;s more variable in that regard. ... Some day my Spike will come...*poof*

I have to admit I didn&#39;t believe the July reports about the Nerds of Doom, but I&#39;m so happy I was wrong. I&#39;ve always had a soft spot for Jonathan. It seems impossible that they might be the Big Bad for this season, but it does seem reasonable that they might be the power that brings about or somehow enables it. Like an accident while trying out the Gorilla(sp?) thing for example. If Willow is being groomed for villain-dom its going to take a little longer than one season for me to buy into her turning evil. Yeah, yeah, technically it started with last season and her sudden spike in power, but I agree that Season 7 would be the perfect time to pull out Evil! Will. BTW, anybody wondered what Tara might have to do with Willow&#39;s ever-growing power? Its been fast and furious since the two of them hooked up and I can&#39;t help but wonder if Will&#39;s somehow feeding on Tara&#39;s own power.

To all the B/S shippers (esp Sabrina) Can i make a guess and say you guys started watching the
show AFTER series 2? Anyone who has been watching the show from before it was popular would remember the magic the writers created back then - and a large part of that was between Buffy and her vamp love. Spike and Buffy may have more chemistry between them than the Buffster and Riley- but so would a dead fish! Buffy and Angel worked so well for a number of reasons: The great chemestry btween SMG and David B (I swear their had to be something going on there!), a well developed and original story line, and well written, emotive scripts. This is why there are still so many B/A shippers around. And why people overlook problematic issues such as the age difference betweem Buffy and Angel (ok, its a bit yucky, but Buffy is kind of a freak herself and whose to say that age is a boundary for true love? Look at Anna Nicole Smith and her hubby.. hmmm....And if Buffy and Spike get it on, its no different!!)What was so great about the show back then was that Joss had a vision. And now all that seems important is ratings and network squabbles. I&#39;m Not saying Buffy and Angel should pine over eachother- but whats&#39; the point of &#39;moving on&#39; to other people when there will never be an equal. While we&#39;re quoting Buffy cast and crew, Miss SMG herself has said a number of times (and as recently as a few months back) that Angel is Buffy&#39;s true love and that she doesnt think that Buffy, the fans or even herself will accept anyone else for the slayer.
And on the notion of ratings.. ratings are higher now as due to publicity, million dollar campaigns by WB and UPN, etc, so there are simply more people watching the show. When the b/a thing was around, most people were still saying "Buffy the who?" Ratings of the show soared during Surprise/Innocenece; Passion; and Becoming... and with out this not only would half the current Buffy fans have prob never watched the show- it prob wouldnt have been around for this long!
The thing with Spike is like it was with Riley. The writers can try to tell you a million times over that Riley was &#39;the one&#39;- but you have to see that happening on screen to believe it.There is NO emotional depth to the Spike/Buffy relationship, unless you like being stalked, and being told that "I&#39;m out for a walk, bitch" is a turn on...
Which while I am on the subject: In Becomming, Spike helped Buffy 1) To spite angel, 2)Coz he liked the world due to all the "happy meals on legs", and 3) so that the world wouldn&#39;t end, and there could be another series! yay!certainly not for buffy&#39;s sake!
I realise that for money making- ooops! i Mean *story-telling*- purposes Buffy and Angel can&#39;t be together, but maybe they should consider making Buffy an independant woman of the new milenium who doesnt need a man: rather than an interdependant whiner who will sleep with anyone who looks twice at her!

THere was a really good ftp site someone posted on here but its down more often than not.
You can download full buffy eps via Kazaa but it takes ages
But otherwise you can see the ep in segments at
http://www.buffyfansite.com/PlotBtVS6.htm
so long as you have real player

At the end of this episode it seemed clear that Buffy wasn&#39;t prepared to grow up just yet. She immediately ran off to see Angel the moment she recieved his phone call... while leaving Giles all alone to handle things by himself instead of working out her financial woes together like he had intended. She said, "Thanks for taking care of this"... which obviously means that she wanted Giles to handle everything while she raced off to be with her undead boytoy. I think Giles will eventually realize that Buffy needs to be her own guiding voice of reason, that she needs to grow up and stop relying on him to be the sensible adult (which is an even bigger task since he is now filling the void left by Joyce and Buffy&#39;s own father). I think Giles is going to let Buffy handle things on her own from now on.

I have a feeling no one else is going to do this since it&#39;s too easy, but.. 1) I started watching in season 1. B&A started out with very little if any chemistry. B&S had it from School Hard and onwards. 2) Joss still has a vision. Open your eyes and try to see where this is going. If there aren&#39;t going to be any vamps after the next apocalypse or two and Angel&#39;s going to be human and Spike loves Buffy, don&#39;t you think it&#39;d be even more poetic (paraphrasing Giles 1.11) for the slayer-killer to sacrifice his life for her and her happiness? 3) B&S&#39;s emotional depth has been there from the begining, they have a stronger history. What Buffy means to Spike in terms of what she is and not what she looks like is alot more compelling and transcendental than B&A. 4) Spike is alot more stable than Angel/Angelus has ever been, though they both have a history of being brutal killers, ad\nd is also alot more lively. Don&#39;t you think Buffy deserves something like that in her life, especially now?

I agree that "Flooded" wasn&#39;t nearly as dramatic as the previous episodes, but it did help to set up the theme for the season - that it&#39;s now time for the gang to grow up and face responsibility for their own lives and the effects of their actions. I think that&#39;s enough to deal with, and a "big bad" would only be a distraction. The three dweebs living in Warren&#39;s mother&#39;s basement are the perfect emblem of guys trying to hang on to adolescence as long as possible - they congratulate themselves on not having to work for their toys:
ANDREW
Is this the life or what? I mean,
here we got all the stuff we ever
wanted, and we didn&#39;t have to ...
WARREN
Earn it?
ANDREW
Exactamundo.
Also, Anya busts Xander because he&#39;s still trying to avoid announcing the engagement, which would make his commitment to her really "real". Willow is childishly cutesy when describing the spell to Giles; she&#39;s enjoying the power trip without considering the consequences. Buffy runs out on her bill-paying responsibilities at the end, dumping them on Giles. I feel sorry for poor Dawn. Another comment - so Angel was Buffy&#39;s first love, and of course that&#39;s the one you always remember, but part of growing up is also realizing that long-term companionship is more important than fleeting romance.

Isn&#39;t that maybe the most un-Willow statement ever made in the history of Buffy? Uh... tip-off something isn&#39;t right. Why would Giles blow that off? If sweet and innocent girl dabbling with dark magic suddenly starts making threating comments towards friends involving use of said dark magic... doesn&#39;t that suggest EV-IL? My first thought was it was a badly edited version of one of those scenes where the character THINKS the phrase/action and then immediately after we see what they actually said (in this case, what ever line said said immediately after in typical worried Willow speak).

Seveal people have been discussing the fact that when Angel first saw Buffy, she was a schoolgirl sucking a lollipop. This is used to then justify Spike&#39;s love as being more sincere and grownup than Angel&#39;s. I think it&#39;s worth remembering the scene where Spike first sees Buffy.
I recently saw *School Hard*, again, having not seen it for ages. I was amazed at how well the episode still worked, and how it seemed to actually set things up for Spike having a crush on Buffy. (This is particularly amazing given that at this point they were planning to kill him off after a few episode). The camera follows Spike&#39;s gaze as he first sees Buffy, and the music is crashingly ominous. It&#39;s not love at first sight, but it is burning desire. Spike has *always* been obsessed by Slayers, but pre-chip that came out as a desire to kill them. Post-chip he can&#39;t fight Buffy, so that desire gets channelled as something else.
In other words, I don&#39;t think that Spike&#39;s first sighting of Buffy is really any improvement on Angel&#39;s morally speaking. But that&#39;s the point: to try to reduce it to morals is potentially too reductive. The world of Buffy is shady, and morally ambiguous characters always work better than straightforward &#39;good guys&#39;, particularly as love-interests.

Self defense courses! She&#39;d be a natural. What did you think I was going to write here, you dirty minded geeks? :-) Serously, Herc, new server not work so well. I&#39;m on a T1, and it takes me three tries and 20 minutes to get to each page.

Wow this is the first time in several days I&#39;ve actually been able to Talk Back. What is up with the AICN server?? Anyway, thanks to whoever posted me some good Buffy sites in another Buffy TB, I believe they had "cake" in their userID but this server has been too slow to confirm. Is it true that Alison Hannigan and the actor who plays Wesley (Alexis something) are dating??? How in the wide world of sports did I miss that?

First off, if you want a really good site to download the current seasons of Buffy and Roswell, go to: http://www.geocities.com/supersailormoon1
I&#39;m also in favor of B/S than B/A. Some part of B/A will always love each other; they were each others first loves. But that doesn&#39;t mean that is who she is supposed to be with. As SMG said herself recently: &#39;A part of Buffy&#39;s heart will always be with Angel, but that doesn&#39;t mean that is who she is supposed to be with eternally.&#39; She then goes on to say &#39;Spike understands Buffy better than anyone else ever has.&#39;
My opinion right now is that Angel was the love of her FIRST life. Spike is the love of her current life.

The nerds of doom were painfully funny, but hilarious. Star Trek, action figure, D&D references ahoy.<><><><><>Being one of the rambling obnoxious people on the net (the rest of you know who you are), I&#39;m gonna say that I like Spike and dislike Angel. I don&#39;t dislike the concept of Angel, but I think David Boreanaz is a poor actor (with willfully bad hair). Spike and Buffy are like Daphne and Niles on Frasier, if they hook up all the tension will be lost. The only reason I want to see Spike score is because he looks hot with his shirt off - where&#39;s Harmony when we need her? How about some shirtless tai-chi solo sessions for Spikey-wikey?<><><><><>Anya and Xander&#39;s fights are excruciatingly realistic - I imagine they could have been lifted wholecloth from many a relationship. Seen many variations on Xander&#39;s evasion tactics IRL . . .

1) The interaction between Xander and Anya. Very real, and had just the right amount of emotional appeal. Sure, they disagree - but they understand each other so well, that they don&#39;t take it as a personal jab to each other and get defensive, but they listen and take it to heart. 2) Spike: how he asks Buffy a question, and then listens. Unlike the Scoobs. He is one of the only "grups" (grownups) on the show now. 3) Giles. Another "grup" - the meeting between him and Buffy in the Magic Box brought genuine tears to my eye. I see similarities between he and Spike now. Wierd, huh? But people, it&#39;s there! 4)The "discussion" between Willow and Giles in the kitchen. Ooooh lordy - Wil is gonna be a good big bad, if that&#39;s true. I now do not trust Willow. Ain&#39;t that funny? 5) The "Geekie Triad". These guys were great. I loved it when the would go off on a tanget amongst themselves. Great stuff.
Last night&#39;s ep proved why BTVS is one of the best shows on TV: it can combine drama, humor, touchy feely stuff and action into a superb and effective episode.

Giles DID have an expression and it was really good acting. Giles was afraid and worried about where she was headed but trying not to show it. Sort of like that look when you know that if you say anything else you could be dead but you don&#39;t want to look like you are thinking that. It was all in the eyes. I understood exactly what he was portraying.

UPN comes in kind of dark and my head was sort of hanging off the side of the couch at a weird angle so I wasn&#39;t getting a great look at the screen. I was pretty much going on what I was hearing. If you couldn&#39;t see everybody&#39;s expressions in that scene, it seemed like "Uhuh... I was doing a good thing", "No Willow, you&#39;re dabbling in very bad things", "Uhuh", "<Scold> <Scold>", "Don&#39;t piss me off", "Buffy shouldn&#39;t be here", "I did a good thing, you&#39;ll see".

A) Start charging those bums you call &#39;friends&#39; rent for living in your house. After all, they are sleeping in the master bedroom, which is the largest room in the house! (Apartment&#39;s and dorm rooms aren&#39;t exactly free either, you know.) B) Call up that dead-beat dad of yours and make him start paying for Dawn&#39;s upbringing! (Just becuase Joyce kicked the bucket doesn&#39;t mean he doesn&#39;t still have an obligation to his children.) C) Send Giles off to merry ole&#39; England to broker a deal with the Watcher&#39;s Council whereby Buffy starts exchanging reports of her actions, adventures, etc. in exchange for financial compensation for the rent and other bills so that she can keep her day job of slayin&#39;. (They don&#39;t have much choice, the only other Slayer is in jail and the line of succession no longer lies with Buffy either.) Problems solved!!!

First off,the reunion of Buffy & Giles was lovely and I loved the Spiderman debate"Action is his reward" and the "stupid skirt" bit. Now on to other matters-I find it interesting that even with Giles back,Spike is still the only one Buffy opens up to. Not only did he make her grin(that whole scene on the porch was very "Fool for Love")but she asked him about finances! She didn&#39;t (directly)ask Giles who is the only one besides Spike to truly care about her well-being which lead to the fight with Willow.
That whole argument clearly defined the growing probelm with Willow-her need to be "congratulated"and have her power recognized(and feared-that "maybe you shouldn&#39;t piss me off"line was a threat,despite her backpedaling). Also,Willow&#39;s take on magic is not based on faith but science which we all know(just ask Professor Walsh)leads down a dark road.
As for the troublesome trio,I think Buffy & the Slayerfriends can handle the Legion of Goons but when a real Big Bad comes along,those guys are minion material. The closest they&#39;ve got to an alpha is Warren and he isn&#39;t a Lex Luthor(I watched Smallville after Buffy and that guy could kick all their butts). Frankly,I&#39;ld like to see Ethan Rayne return and teach those boys a few tricks. Oh,and the "Buffy the musical"promos ruled!

Yea..I read that today in fact. An article on him that said they were &#39;romantically involved&#39; and that he was only supposed to start off as a two ep character and then be killed off...but ended up sticking around and finally becoming the character he is now. I think it was on scifi.com and there was a small article about the actress playing Fred on Angel as well.

I&#39;ve been reading this B/A debate for a couple of days now. I wanted to say something, but everything I wanted to say seems to have been said. But hey, what is this board for if not redundancy? Ok, let me just start off by saying that yes, I&#39;m a B/A fan. A big one. That being said, I know it&#39;s not likely to happen anytime this millenium, but I&#39;m a hopeless romantic. I think that SMG and JM have great chemistry, but not smoldering romantic chemistry like her and DB have. And I base this on that episode where they thought they were engaged. They would make great confidants, the way Angel and Cordy are. Speaking of which, if people are gonna jump on the subject of how Spike really listens to Buffy when no one else does, then they should point out that Cordy does the same thing for Angel. She asks him how he feels and listens...for about a minute before she says something dumb, but at least she asks in the first place. Angel has always listened to Buffy, like in the "Ted" and funeral episodes, but she never asked him how he felt about things, then complained that he never talks. But I&#39;m going on a tangent here. Anyway, I think Spike should be her best friend. Not like a girlfriend who&#39;s a guy, i.e. Xander, but someone she can tell everything to and not worry about hurt feelings. Let&#39;s face it, she&#39;s never really been able to tell her closest friends anything of real emotional importance. Witness episode 3.2 . I thought they were horrible to her. Now she&#39;s got these freeloading witches in her house, one of whom thinks everyone should be bowing down to her (she&#39;s so gonna turn evil), and she&#39;s broke and left pining for Heaven. I think pairing up B/S is a bad idea just cuz of the history. He&#39;s said some pretty nasty things to her when they were on the same side, let alone against each other. There was a point somewhere in all this, let&#39;s see if I can find it... Ok, got it. I&#39;ll always think B/A should be together, but that&#39;s not to say she can&#39;t be with anyone else. Except Riley, of course. She and Spike should have a powerful, deep friendship and understanding, just no hanky panky. For soap operas, arch rivals falling madly in love is a given, which is one of the reasons I stopped watching. I hope it doesn&#39;t happen here. If it does, well I really can&#39;t do anything about it. Most likely I&#39;ll be here typing about it.

Yep, you&#39;re right. Buffy needs to start charging Willow and Tara for rent, and she needs to track down her deadbeat dad. But maybe the rent issue will be one of the things that will cause Willow and her to start becoming enemies. As for dad, maybe Buffy will try to find him but to no avail. As for the Watcher&#39;s Council, maybe Giles will help to negotiate a minimum payment/stipend for Buffy so that she can continue with her slaying. After all, the CoW pay their Watchers. You would think they would have put up money to support the Slayers, especially for the training they have to go through. Maybe if they had done this, Faith wouldn&#39;t have fallen to the dark side. Throwing in a scholarship fund would be nice too. But maybe no Slayer has lived long enough, until Buffy, for them to think about these matters. Even with CoW funding, I think Buffy (and Dawn too) will need to get jobs. Maybe Dawn can work part time in the magic shop.

As much as I liked seeing Spike pine away last season, and felt his pain when Buffy proclaimed him "Beneath" her, I&#39;m still kind of annoyed by Spike&#39;s feelings defying all we&#39;ve learned about Vamps in the last 7 years. There&#39;s a difference between a Soul and a Brain-Chip. It may give him a headache, but Spike is still possessed by a Demon, and should therefore be incapable of any true goodness. I&#39;ll buy into a previous poster&#39;s observation that our boy William/Spike has indeed always been "Love&#39;s Bitch", but it still bugs me. Yes, I do like spike being around, and I&#39;m glad Buffy&#39;s becoming a little more tolerant of him. (And how Dawny kinda&#39; digs him), but sometime&#39;s I just wanna&#39; shout "Hello....Vampire...Demon..incapable of being a good guy".
I&#39;ve watched both BTVS and Angel from the first episodes of each, and to me the two lead characters will always be
soul(?)mates. How fittingly tragic that they can&#39;t be together, but will always be there for each other. No further proof of their bond should be needed than Buffy&#39;s waiting until dark after her mother&#39;s funeral because she KNEW Angel would be there. According to Angel himself, he&#39;s loved no other in over two hundred years. Again, I enjoyed his time with Darla (mmmm...Darla), but I don&#39;t want to see him with Cordy. I hate to see Fred get hurt though.
As always, I&#39;ll leave it all in Joss&#39; masterful hands.
And I can&#39;t wait to see Bad Willow!

Something I forgot to mention in my last post:
If Spike truly loved Buffy, why not have the live-in witches use the spell to give him his soul back? willow&#39;s much more powerful now than when she re-restored Angel&#39;s soul. And now she&#39;s got Tara, and her own nearby Magic shop. Of course, I guess if it worked and Buffy then fell for him, he&#39;d experience that "moment of true happiness" and screw everything up again. Or maybe they could just leave that part out.(Or maybe, nothing would happen and Spike would realize Buffy didn&#39;t give him true happiness, and she was just an obsession to him). But if they could leave that part out for Spike, why not do the same for Angel, allowing him to be with Buffy, thereby really screwing up the whole dynamic of the show. Or how about....OW, too many questions....head hurt...Fire bad! Tree pretty...

No one can say definitively that Spike cannot love Buffy because he has no soul. Spike&#39;s story is far from over. His situation is unique among vampires, and who&#39;s to say what follows the mythos or not? I am sure that Joss will be addressing Spike&#39;s (or William&#39;s) soul, and explain everything. Remember, this is Joss&#39; mythos, and he can make exceptions so long as they&#39;re explained well. Personally, I think the whole Spike storyline is leading up to something big, and all will be explained. I think somehow Spike *has* gained his soul back, and this fact will come out, and it will be explained. But one thing that has been established is that demons *can* be good or bad. This hasn&#39;t really applied to vamps yet, but just because we haven&#39;t seen them, doesn&#39;t mean that a few good vamps don&#39;t exist. I would imagine they lay really low, and other vamps wouldn&#39;t really tolerate them... Well, we&#39;ll see what happens this season, but I am willing to lay down a Hot Pocket bet that Spike has somehow (or will this season) get his soul back.

I&#39;m sick of this Spike Buffy debate. This episode had me all over Willow and the new big bads! Okay, I expect the Legion of Nerdy doom is not unlike Spike and Drusilla in Season 2. They&#39;re entertaining, but they&#39;re future minions to a big bad the season is setting up. Now the real question is, will it be Willow? The reason I ask is, they&#39;re making it a little obvious, aren&#39;t they? I won&#39;t mind it because it works, but it would be just like them to set up Willow but then go and make Anya turn demon again instead. I would prefer Willow because her turning evil would divide the group a lot more than Anya. Willow&#39;s fall is turning heartbreaking for me. This is Willow! She&#39;s not like this! She&#39;s falling down a path that isn&#39;t like her, and yet she&#39;s doing it for good reasons--reasons that ARE like Willow. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. With the recent release of the Godfather on DVD, I&#39;m seeing a parallel between Michael Corleone and Willow. They&#39;re so convinced that they are right, that it leads to them doing bad things. Wanna know why Tara&#39;s not in the credits? I think she&#39;s this season&#39;s Jenny Calendar(or Fredo to continue the Godfather parallel). I really hope they continue with this story and not pull a last minute switch with Anya. Maybe I&#39;m being silly to think that. The Initiative thing was obvious from day one too(tell me you didn&#39;t expect "Buffy&#39;s becoming a liablity" to be uttered, or that the white lab coat didn&#39;t mean Prof Walsh was a mad scientist). But the Legion and Willow, unlike the Initiative and every big bad since the Mayor, are ENTERTAINING! I love the way the nerds are living the good life they didn&#39;t earn while Buffy is struggling with finances. They hired somebody else(with no regard to consequences) to rob a bank for them and they didn&#39;t even need the money! You know, if I could write their ending(which is far from now I hope) I&#39;d have Willow transform them all into rats(to replace a hopefully soon to be de-ratted Amy). It&#39;s the fate they deserve, becoming harmless irrelevant domesticated animals that someone will take care of for the rest of their existance. Hope my saying so won&#39;t discourage them from doing it if it&#39;s already in the plans.

If this show has anything to do with "growing up", Angel and Buffy should go their separate ways. I know, David B. is a handsome actor and had great chemistry with SMG. I know that I missed him when he was gone. But believing that you met your "true" love when you were 15, and hoping that one day you will get back together is naive in real life, and naive in any show. People grow up, fall in love, and when they break up for real reasons, they stay apart. They move on, and they should move on. I don&#39;t believe true love can happen at 15. First love can and does, but before true love to happen, one should find herself. Buffy is just finding herself, and she is very different from the perky, childish Buffy we have seen in the early years. I cannot and will not believe that he needed the same guy all along.
When I see the early episodes now, I realize that A & B had a teenager&#39;s love, a first love. It is precious, but is based on physical attraction rather than similarity, understanding or friendship. They love each other at first sight, without knowing anything about each other. They are intended for each other by Joss, and we are made to believe that they have something very special. Because it is impossible, it is all the more valuable. Just like many other first loves we see in real life.
I wouldn&#39;t wish Angel on anyone, because it comes with the whole Angelus package. This is unstable, scary, and even though it may seem desirable on tv, it is a bad thing waiting to happen. Angel may try to be good all he wants, but he has a double personality that he cannot control. Until this problem is solved, I don&#39;t think he is bf material for anyone.
Also I find his "goodness" or heroism a bit weird. He has a precious curse that is all too fragile, and he did not even earn it. He was so bad that he was cursed with a soul. I don&#39;t see why a soul would make someone better than a person with no soul. Aren&#39;t actions more important? He does good because he feels guilty. Sometimes he doesn&#39;t even do that. Is this necessarily better than someone doing good because he loves and cares for someone?
I root for Spike, because I find this love more reality based. This is no Romeo & Juliet story which is precious because it is impossible. They hated each other at first. But they are similar. They understand each other, are there for each other, and they can be themselves with each other. In my experience, this is a very good basis for love that may last. I really don&#39;t care about "internal evilness". Evil becomes evil when people act on it. A person may think evil thoughts but I don&#39;t think that can be held against him. If he decides to go back to his evil ways in Joss&#39; world, then of course there is nothing to say. But I don&#39;t think "having no soul" or "feeling no remorse" can be held against someone. On the contrary, I think doing good without a soul, or feeling no remorse when one knows that it is useless are acts to be appreciated.

This is in response to your comment about why spike hasn&#39;t asked for a soul. It is my understanding that when a demon gains a soul his personality changes. Angelus and Angel are COMPLETELY different. Is it fair to ask Spike to give up everything that makes him HIM? For all we know...the soulfull spike wouldn&#39;t even love Buffy. I think proving his love, the way he has been doing (good deeds and all that) is a far better way to prove his sincerity then asking for a soul. That seems to be the easy way out. Plus, if they found a cure for the clause Angel&#39;s show would be all but over and although I personally might not shed a tear over this one, many will.

Just a couple of questions. Has anyone figured out that damn number thing on the shirts and....
Was thinking the other day, why was Angel&#39;s buddy on Angel, Doyle I believe, why was he killed off???
huh?

Regarding Spike getting his soul back, I consider it rather unlikely. However, I don&#39;t see why they can&#39;t do it. I mean, the instructions for reinstalling Angel&#39;s soul fit on a floppy, I&#39;m sure they could work the spell without much difficulty. Just hit him with the same gypsy curse they laid on Angel in the first place. In fact, souls for all! Spike, Dru, Harmony, Riley (shh, it&#39;s a secret), anyone, just have Willow and Tara run the spell a few times - what&#39;s the problem? **** Anyway, easily accomplished in the Buffy-verse, but probably not going to happen. WAR HOTPANTS. I&#39;m out.

Do any of you remember the episode last season in which Dawn and Spike try and bring Joyce back? In this episode, they go to see Doc, and he recognizes Spike as "That guy... you play checkers outside the store on the corner, right? Different color hair, but..." or something to that effect. What could that mean? Mmmm, fascinating.

Everyone&#39;s mantra in the B/A/S debate seems to be change. And there is monstrous foreshadowing for a B/S pairing and for Willow becoming a the season&#39;s Big Bad. But that&#39;s not change. It&#39;s been done before people. Buffy having to fight her dear friend Willow echoes her fight against Angel at the end of season 2. Remember the talk she had at the end of last season (I know it was so long ago) with Giles about the upcoming apocalypse. She&#39;s already dealt with sacrificing/trying to save the one she loves while saving the world. And Spike? The Slayer/Vampire hookup has been done before to. I&#39;m sorry, I love JM, from his first appearance, when he mows down the sign to Sunnydale. But Spike is just a namby-pampy version of Angel, from their pre-vampire selves down to their love for Buffy. I have one thing to say against a B/S union: Buffybot. Eeeeww!!! Was anyone else grossed out by that? Or is it socially acceptable because it was more realistic looking than a blow up doll. If Spike really loves Buffy would he have degraded her image to his f*** toy. Angel would never have done that. At the end of the day, I want to trust JW to carry this show through true to his original vision. And I hope we don&#39;t see the recycling of plots. And my final word on B/A/S for the poetic at heart: a truly vicious vampire spending a hundred years in personal anguish before finally finding love is much more resonating than love&#39;s bitch trading in one love for another. Compelling storytelling, isn&#39;t that what we all watch the show for?

That episode sucked! (ep.4"flooded"). Now, I am a big Buffy fan...so I wouldn&#39;t just say that. So far, this season has no direction. I&#39;m tired of the soap opera crap!! I was tired of it last season. It was so freakin&#39; boring!!! Come on people...are we into action/adventure/drama or just stupid drama-daily life crap! The only, and I do mean only, somewhat interesting things was the nerd trio. They were funny...typical buffy stuff. Other than that...come on writers!!! Get into something interesting fast!

... might have serious implications here. So far we have the Nerd Trio set-up as the villains... three of them. Then in the SAME episode, we have a Spiderman reference. Coincidence? Maybe... maybe not. Someone brought up that Amy (now a rat) had no problem using her magic for selfish reasons and could be deratted and join the trio, making four people. I believe they&#39;ve already said that she&#39;ll be deratted. Now, back to Spiderman, but I believe that the Sinister Six started as THREE and had three more join them to combat Spiderman (could be wrong, trying to remember)... Three + Amy would be four. So add Willow and one more (Tara?) by season&#39;s end and that would be The Sinister Six. Voila...

After more than 20 years of marriage, my parents parted and went their separate ways . . . then, after seveal years, circumstance brought them in contact, and they ended up getting back together again for several years, until my Father died. So, even in the REAL world, these things DO happen. God and Joss work in mysterious ways -- trying to second guess either of them is probably a losing propositon.

wondering what the offscreen reunion would consist of. Is anyone else a bit pissed that we don&#39;t get to see it? Damn network politics. I&#39;m thinking biiig smoochies a la FOREVER. hmmm... they could do so much with it. I think it would also get really interesting if Buffy DID remember the perfect day of I WILL REMEMBER YOU, while in heaven. Will we ever know????
P.s I went on his website and it looks like Marc Blucas is booked up for the season. Anyone else got any info on this???

Spike better be happy that he&#39;s a Vampire cause if he wasn&#39;t a vampire he would have never meet his real true love.... Buffy! They are soul mates in love. And Angel has to deal with that cause when he finds out that Buffy and Spike kissed, he has to face the facts that Buffy and Spike are in love and he has 2 find someone else that will comfortb him through these times. And what will go through Buffy&#39;s Mind when Spike and her kiss?.... Angel Who?
This is dedicated to my friend who is also obbessed with Spike : Jess

Well. Has anyone heard anything about The Dawn and her clepto ways?? I know in Intervention(season 5)..she nabbed Anya&#39;s earing..Then in After Life..She lied about having Willows clogs..(which is obvious..Tara said Dawn borrowed them) and the cut to Buffybot was supposed to make us believe that droid has them...But who programmed her to do that?? and the whole Halloween spoiler that clearly says that Dawn tells her vampy love interest "She steals all the time.."
So is there some crazy storyline here? I hope it&#39;s more than her just being a "Clepto Key Chic"
Lauren

Buffy and Angel&#39;s reunion will obviously come up later in the season.
I&#39;m guessing she told him everything, probably cried a bit, but I think everyone is going to turn on Willow due to her selfish act. Which may in turn cause her to get all evil witchy on everyone..
hmmm
Lauren