The 2017 Yearbook is now available on JW.org, and the much-anticipated figures in the “Service Year Report” tell the story of an organization that is haemorrhaging members and barely keeping its head above water.

Even in the United States of America, the organization’s heartland, it seems Watchtower is suffering heavy losses.

Last year saw 28,588 get baptized as Jehovah’s Witnesses in the USA (a similar number to the year before). Despite this, the number of Witnesses in America has grown by only 2,945.

When you compare this figure with the 34,247-publisher increase for 2007, a picture emerges of growth numbers that are steadily meandering their way toward a decrease – as the following graph further highlights.

Growth in publishers in the USA over ten years 2007 to 2016

Over the border in Canada, the situation is even more bleak. The 2016 service year closed with Canada having 169 fewer Jehovah’s Witnesses than it had boasted the previous year.

A similar story emerged in Australia, where the ongoing Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex Abuse and its damning verdicts on Jehovah’s Witnesses has surely played at least some role in there being 64 fewer Witnesses in 2016 than in 2015 (despite 1,235 baptisms). In the same branch territory, New Zealand also recorded a decrease (of 34).

Then there is Europe.

When I first started running over the figures, I was curious to discover that Croatia had registered a decrease (of 108) and wondered whether the same could be said of surrounding countries. (I live in Croatia, incase my interest in that particular country confuses you!) Indeed, it emerged that Italy (-28), Slovenia (-22), Hungary (-365), Serbia (-6) and Bosnia and Herzegovina (-24) all registered diminished populations of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Intrigued, I decided to crunch the numbers properly and produce a map of European nations where JWs are in decline. This is what I ended up with:

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness who believes fervently in the “good news” being preached in all nations, and in Armageddon only being held back by God because he wants to bring in more JWs, the above map should be a very depressing spectacle. An alternative map, showing the figures for some of the European countries, can be seen below…

(Click on map to enlarge)

As you can see, even some European countries that are not in decline only squeezed the most modest of increases. Iceland has 1 extra publisher to show for 82,162 hours of preaching, and the United Kingdom with its 1,613 congregations, 2,309 baptisms and 24.8 million hours of preaching mustered only 26 more publishers than the previous year.

These figures are cataclysmic for Watchtower and may explain why there was such a delay in the 2017 Yearbook being made available. A letter to all congregations dated May 21, 2016 promised congregations that the book would be released online “beginning in October” of 2016. It’s anyone’s guess as to why it has now emerged on JW.org around 3 months behind schedule, but I believe the appalling results could be a factor. I could well understand the Governing Body and other Watchtower higher-ups needing time to digest the bad news and decide how it fits in with their theological narrative for when the inevitable letters from worried JWs start coming in.

As for why there are decreases in so many countries, I believe it is safe to suggest that thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses do not appreciate being lied to and are increasingly voting with their feet. Rather than making their teachings more reasonable and loving, the Governing Body has stubbornly held to dictating teachings and policies that are increasingly unrecognizable from most interpretations of Christianity.

The Yearbook itself furnishes a good example of the radical leanings of Watchtower’s modern leadership, with page 26 boasting about a boy in England who has been baptized as young as eight. Of course, many JWs will read this kind of story and be thrilled that the good news is being preached “out of the mouth of babes.” But a growing number are capable of interpreting accounts like this as sickening evidence of a cult that will stop at nothing to further its own interests.

If Watchtower is desperate enough to welcome the inclusion of eight-year-olds in its membership role-call, its outlook must be bleak. Those like myself who yearn to see the organization lose its grip on the minds of loved ones deserve to take a moment to celebrate the emancipation of so many who have found their freedom in recent months. Watchtower is clearly floundering in the information age and news of its diminishing influence in so many countries is a moment to savor.

277 Responses to Bad omens for Watchtower as new Yearbook shows decreases for Canada, Australia and much of Europe

Here’s a great QFR article I came across at the weekend thanks to a friend, that shows the WTS double standards but that could be used to defend oneself if hauled before a JC for asking the “wrong” questions:

*** g84 22/8 p. 28 From Our Readers ***
“You all loved it, didn’t you? You couldn’t resist taking a shot at the Catholic Church, could you? I will never forgive the way you mercilessly tore down the Pope. If Jehovah’s Witnesses must refer to cheap shots in attempting to bring down other religions, they’re in more trouble than the Catholics.
M. C., Florida
We surely were not trying to take cheap shots at the pope or the Catholic Church, nor were we criticizing Catholics. The Catholic Church occupies a very significant position in the world and claims to be the way of salvation for hundreds of millions of people. Any organization that assumes that position should be willing to submit to scrutiny and criticism. All who criticize have the obligation to be truthful in presenting the facts and fair and objective in assessing such. In both respects we try to live up to that obligation.—ED.”

I will try to bring this up with an elder next time I’m in the field service with one, to get his view. “Brother, if we profess to be the truth, shouldn’t we be willing to submit to criticism and scrutiny?” Then bring up something from the Royal Commission. This always tends to get a reaction from the elders.

Probably because the 2.1 million are the ones been schuned and classified as already judged and dead . There is your answer to the reason why they have not been included . And such is called faithful to love , well I can guarantie you that such an organisation is still gona leurn who is the judge Isaiah 30:8-14.

Britain’s increase is 26 over the previous year with
26.8 million hours spent in the preaching work.
basically put that’s a million hours spent to make one JW.
it takes a hundred and fourteen years to make a JW in the UK. . . WOW!
(and some of those are family members)

Troubled times have always been the norm. So, “near” makes no sense. The perspective is from a people or person that takes prosperity and safety for granted. In most of the world, this has not been a given for thousands of years. If you live in peace, them you live in scarcity and no one wants your land.

You’re right Sam, the slowing down proves nothing. Yet people, including the WT, can draw conclusions about the possible future health of their organization based upon current trends. A commercial company that continues to have decreased sales can go out of business, and that possibility can be predicted, whether correctly or incorrectly, by analyzing a downward trend in sales.

Please read all the apostles’ letters. We could never accurately understand them without reading them completely. Isolated scriptures connected to commentary will never tell us the whole picture. Apostles writings state that the end was close in THEIR day. Close being a relative statement. You know the “thousand years” scripture.

So, please read those letters yourself, without letting someone else tell you what they mean. I trust your intelligence to understand them without interference from a third party. Then compare what the apostles wrote to what Christ is recorded to have said at Luke 21:8. I believe that the part of that scriptures the states, “I am he,” is not meant to be taken literally but metaphorically as assuming the position Christ holds as “the head of all men” and mediator between God and men.

Before I left I had a really good study with someone who was really going to become a bro. Then I woke up which was most inconvenient.Trying to explain that stupid bible teach book just irritated me. Anyway I did the dutiful thing and passed the study on to an elder. I am happy to report the said potential victim is NOT one of the 26 unfortunates that got a cultish dipping in Britain. And he never will be has not been seen for dust and it was now’t to do with me so although I maybe a naughty apostate they will never lay the blame at my door for the lack of conversion of one seeing sucker!! The head honcho could not even persuade a sure fire convert handed to him on a plate. There is no hope for this cult apart from the brainwashed and damaged children.PS Is jesus laughing or weeping into his beer? Cheers Ruthlee

Ruthee some years ago I was conducting a study in the Bible teach book, and on one of the pages it read something like, “We’ll have to wait and see just what part Jehovah allows Jesus to have in the judgment.” I’ve flipped through the book more recently, and haven’t been able to locate it, but I know I saw it years back. And it’s not important enough to me to really read the book to find it again. My thought is, How can any JW not see that the thought denies Jesus’ own claim that, “The Father judges no one at all, but he has turned over ALL judging to the son.” I just don’t see how any well read Witness can’t see that.

When I tally the number of people in my local area JW’s) that have faded, been DF’d or passed away in recent years.. compared to the number being baptized at local assemblies…. it makes me question the validity of the numbers WT is publishing. I’m highly suspect that they are cooking the books!?!?
Does anyone else agree? Think about your circle & how many are entering or exiting?

One can only guess how incorrect the numbers are, but here in the US Midwest, many are fading and becoming more vocal. Adult children have faded or come once in a blue moon. I don’t know of any ‘worldly converts’ in our former congregation for the last 3 years.( We quit 2 yes ago next August.yay) but the couples are multiplying and filling the hall with children. As they r pressured to get baptized earlier and earlier, this can be the only reason for any increase in our circuit.
FYI I get updates due to the fact that several members still come to my business and keep me posted. They have nothing else to talk about…. and obviously, they’re not obedient to Big Brother, cause I haven’t been to a meeting in all that time and was super regular and active. No one has the guts to ask why, just the” I miss you so much” blather…

The spin will probably come from Matthew 24:12 “[…] the love of the greater number will grow cold.” If and when the GB openly accepts the fact of a weakening organization, they will attribute as proof that Matthew’s prophesy is being fulfilled giving more credit to the notion that the end is EVEN MUCH MORE CLOSER than expected. They will keep coercing the remaining few to stay or else there will be deadly consequences! One can only imagine the indoctrination and fear-inducing talks prepared for this year’s Regional Assembly: “Don’t give up!” All around local congregations weather it’s English or foreign languages the comments I hear are about members just leaving the org because of being DF or just because they lost interest, especially the younger folks are pouring out and exiting in massive numbers! With young ones leaving and old ones dying its not surprise the numbers are shrinking! Can’t wait to see what will happen to the org in the next 5 years! 🙂

@Yo-yo Man, we can see the GB becoming more and more paranoid as time goes by. They have now taken the Faithful and Discreet Slave to mean them. More and more we are learning about the governing body of the first century. Tell me, in the first century how many books of the Bible did the governing body write? None. Who wrote most of the books and most letters to the congregations? Paul, a circuit overseer.

The last regional convention about Loyalty to Jehovah was a desperate attempt to stop people leaving. If a company gave a seminar like this it would tell you the company is close to going out of business. Now: Don’t Give Up. A sister told me just today, “Looks like a lot of people are leaving for them to come up with a title like that.” Even the typical witness is starting to wonder what is going on.

One correction Ricardo, Paul was an apostle, one who was chosen directly by Christ. He wasn’t a circuit overseer. Also, many don’t believe there was a governing body in the first century.

It’s true Jewish Christians from Jerusalem traveled to a gentile area and began telling Christians there they must get circumcised which led to arguments about circumcisions necessity. Some believe elders from there, along with Paul and those Jewish Christians went back to Jerusalem to settle the argument, because that’s where those Jewish Christians came from. Of course most of the other Apostles being there could have also been a reason, but not necessarily the only one.

But was the work directed from Jerusalem? No. Paul was baptized, and started preaching and didn’t go and see anyone in Jerusalem for three years. And even then he just met with two Christians, Peter and another. After he left he again started preaching and didn’t return there for some 13 or 14 years. He was sent out from Antioch to preach, not directed by those brothers in Jerusalem. The Christians in Jerusalem were not directing him.

There doesn’t appear to have been an appointed central body that directed the congregations. Paul would send out reps himself to appoint servants in places his preaching had developed groups of Christians.

This reasoning, that in the first century there was no governing body directing the preaching work, was used by Bro Fred Franz himself, in a talk to a missionary class.

I believe it is the organization’s explanation that Paul was a circuit overseer and he appointed elders, and so now the CO’s appoint elders to fit in with the scriptural pattern.

However, this is not consistent with the fact that almost all our letters to the congregation come from the GB rather than the CO. If you see the point. I see your point that in the 1st century there wasn’t really an actual Governing Body. My point is that even if there was, it still doesn’t follow the 1st century pattern that letters to congregations that we know of mainly came from Paul, who the GB considers a CO.

Besides all that, it is amazing the contortions the GB is pulling to try and give legitimacy to themselves by bringing out as much as they can about the little-mentioned arrangement of the 1st century.

The CO said to me that the worst position to have at the moment would be a member of the GB, to try to explain the things that are happening (or, more to the point, the things that aren’t happening).

Ricardo, the WT might consider Paul’s work similar to a CO, which is inaccurate in itself, but they would never claim that Paul was not an apostle and instead a CO(they’re not that sloopy), because it would be to easy to prove he an apostle, while the position of CO is not scriptural. It’s just fact and easily proved by scripture.

The WT always has manipulated their narrative in claims that scriptures fit their modern religious model. Paul’s work was not anything like a CO. Today’s COs call on congregations that already exist and report back to the gb. Paul was ordained to preach the gospel of Jesus to gentiles by holy spirit, he was not sent out by any group of men in Jerusalem, but by holy spirit and those in Antioch. And even the WT doesn’t believe those in Antioch were a gb. Furthermore, although Paul eventually told the Jerusalem brothers of his successes he did not report to them or answer to them as modern CO’s do to the gb. I think after first speaking to Peter he didn’t return to Jerusalem for 13 or 14 years. Most of all the authority Christ bestowed on Paul was probably greater than that bestowed on any other Christian except possibly Peter, and I think it could be successfully argued that it was greater than that bestowed on Peter. That’s why the book of Acts, the one book that acquaints us with first century Christian activity, centers around Peter’s and then Paul’s activity- Peter’s, because he had the three keys to the kingdom, Paul’s, because his work was the most extensive.

It’s not a big enough point to knock the WT about, but the claim you brought out demonstrates again how WT frames scriptural ideas around their organization, when the correlations, WT to scripture, don’t really exist.

@ Ricardo
Are you sure the org didn’t claim Timothy was a CO, not that Paul was? Timothy’s work was more similar to a co’s than Paul’s was. It would make more sense if they claimed that about Timothy who also appointed elders.

Yeh, I may have got confused. There was some reason given for the new arrangement of CO’s appointing elders and MS’s. I thought the example given was Paul appointing them in the first century, but it might have been Timothy, or maybe I heard it wrong. Sometimes my brain is still waking up after it has gone to sleep in the air-con of the hall and something too simple or silly is being discussed, causing me to let my sub-conscious cope because my awake self cannot.

Hey, messenger, did you see my post where I asked you if you explain Jesus’ illustration of the dragnet? I can’t understand it completely, but I feel it has something to do with righteous people also being found in other organizations (I know the GB doesn’t understand it this way, but it obviously has this type of meaning). Could you tell me what you think?

yoyo mama, If the gb does use that thought recored in Mat they’ll have to claim new light, for the gb attributes that idea, the cooling off of love to those on the outside, not inside their congregations. But you may be correct, they can always claim new light.

This is good news. I note that GB recorded an increase of 26. Sadly my youngest sister was one of those, after having been out for 30 years. Hopefully one day she will regret her mistake and leave it behind for good.

Have you noticed that there’s some kind of miracle: tje anointed remnant has been increasing! Tremendous!… Unless these people are… mentally disturbed, according to WT of course… Can the GB really and seriously think that more 18,000 JW are so?

It might not just be the changing doctrines, or the child abuse. There’s a certain cold aloofness about many JWs. They don’t call on, look aafter, even send cards – or even pick up the phone for a call – to e.g. older ones, or their families, even when a tragedy like family death occurs. I blame a lot of this aloofness on the strict dress code. Put a man in a suit and he feels coldly powerful, authoritarian. Encourage the sisters to dress up and they get competitive, back-biting, on who has the snazziest dress, birghtest lipstick, best-dyed/permed hair. If the G-Body banned suits and let tye sisters wear trousers, you’d see some improvement – but the GB would rather put a cross on the K Halls.

Ha… The trousers thing was one of the final nails in the coffin for me. I started wearing trousers to the meeting (as I ALWAYS wore them in work life and the theory was that you should be professionally dressed as when you are at work) I was ‘counselled’ by the elders, when I asked them politely to tell me the reasons, they absolutely floundered and just said I had a rebellious attitude. Recently I saw a witness woman wearing trousers on the field service so I wonder if they have softened? (UK)

Also my family are all massively involved in the chinese ministry here and seeing apparently huge increase, so if those numbers contribute to UKs 26, they must be leaking people!

And the beards issue for men. Jesus had one. Moses had one. Beards are perfectly acceptable for men now, although in the 1960s they might have had ‘hippie’ comnnotations. But we’re not in the 1960s. however most US marketing books do derive from then – things like ‘salesmen who have beards are hiding something’ and such tosh. That JW phrase ‘Dress and Grooming’ comes from 60s marketing textbooks too. And I actually heard a M Servant say on the platform “I know a good brother, if his shoes are shiny” Not, if he is generous, or studious, or humble, No, shiny shoes. Great way to keep people enslaved to rituals though – women must spend hours ‘dolling up’, and men must wear clothes they really don’t want to wear (we know that becaiuse how long do they keep that suit on once at home?).

If the incredible, sudden, inexplicable increases in countries like Congo, Malawi, Zambia and perhaps Ghana were not included in this report, the increase would be half of what it is, which means it would be below 1%. Next year, assuming that Brazil and Angola will be more saturated with witnesses and thus have a smaller increase, the increase should be below 1% in 2019, as it also may be the next year. After that there will be a flat lining and the 2020’s should be a decade of actual decreases, which together with the sex abuse cases coming through the courts at that time should bankrupt the organization or severely dampen the success further of the preaching work.

Taking into account the following factors: the incredible increase of opposition videos on Youtube; the increased number of witnesses displaying on Youtube why they are leaving; the increasing amount of angry ex-JWs and faders who are being shunned together with the increasing number of angry present-JWs who are victims of the elders and the organization and who are also being shunned (due to their negative speech); the lack of any meaningful results from field service in the western countries; and the number of own goals the organization is kicking due to its own incompetence; how long can this organization keep on going?

So, probably there will still be a service report for a few more years, and then it will disappear.

Oh dear
The majority of bloggers on this woeful site have been predicting doom, disaster, failure, bankruptcy for Jehovahs Organisation for many years now, but the increase in publishers continue and the increase in the number of hours spent preaching continue to increase etc etc
If it was by human endeavour then yes the organisation would have folded ages ago. But it is Jehovahs Organisation. No commercial advertising needed, no sponsorship needed, no lottery funding needed etc etc. No need for Prince’s millions, no need for commercial backers, no need to invest in stocks and shares etc etc
Beautiful new headquarters in USA and new branch building in U.K.
Voluntary donations of time and money
What other organisation is Jehovah God using to sanctify and Glorify his name. There is no other Organisation.
It’s Jehovahs Witnessss and we are proud to be a part of it.
Not long to go now.
Paradise soon to be here.
All the sniping and propaganda you all spout off will not change Jehovahs purpose and his timetable for a conclusion to this system.

Dear Silas, given the amount of ways our organization is shooting itself in the foot, I think the greatest danger to the organization is the organization itself.

At the moment we are at our peak. However, blind Freddy can see (sorry, not politically correct) that we are about to enter a period of below one % growth to be followed by a decade of decreases. To complete the total storm, during the period of decrease a whole lot of new sex abuse cases will be settled by the courts. We have already had millions of our contributions paid out as compensation to just two victims, one in the US and one in the UK. We are not a rich organization.

So crow while you can. But be careful not to get egg on your face when we go bankrupt.

Silas, can you not see that by not taking the sexual abuse seriously, our organization is actually dirtying Jehovah’s name. I for one am a Jehovah’s Witness who is not proud of what I see happening in our organization.

I keep asking myself why the Governing Body doesn’t fix it up, and it just keeps getting worse.

Your comments seem to make reference to the immenent arrival of the kingdom. Reminds me of something I read: “All the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years.”

Where did I read that? From a 1969 Awake! Therefore, ‘imminent’ has taken on a new meaning which does not agree with the one found in the dictionary.

But you better hope, my brother, that the new system comes real soon, because although now you laugh about the doomsayers who predicted bankruptcy, the millions of dollars recently paid out as compensation is totally the organization’s fault and looks soon to become a flood.

No wonder our organization is in trouble, with guys like you who seem to have no ability to see the signs of where our organization is headed. It’s like seeing a bus about to go over a cliff, with all the passengers laughing about how good their picnic is going to be. Get your head out of the sand and look at reality.

There was a time spoken about in the Bible book of Acts when the future looked grim for the apostles and the disciples of Jesus. Jews opposed Christians. The judges of the Jewish people known as the Sanhedrin were determined to have them put to death. Why not read it for yourself at Acts 5:33.
However, things took an unexpected turn.
Gamaliel, who was an expert in the Law, stood up and warned his fellow Judges not to act hastily. This is what he told them “If this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them.” Then he made an incredible statement. Gamaliel added: “Otherwise, you may perhaps be found fighters actually against God.” READ IT FOR YOURSELF AT Acts 5:34, 38, 39.
Amazingly, the court accepted Gamaliel’s advice. The Sanhedrin “summoned the apostles, flogged them, and ordered them to stop speaking upon the basis of Jesus’ name, and let them go.” Far from being intimidated, however, the apostles were determined to obey the angelic command to preach. Thus, after their release, “every day in the temple and from house to house [the apostles] continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.” (Acts 5:40, 42) Jehovah blessed their efforts. To the extent that “The word of God went on growing, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying in Jerusalem very much.” In fact, “a great crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith.” (Acts 6:7) That must have hurt the chief priests.
Sad to say therein lies your problem.
Its been a few years since I last visited this site forum.
It’s the same old complaints and moaning occurring by the majority of people on the forum.
But there is an incredible amount of work taking place in the preaching activity.
Phenomenal success of ministry work, through the street carts, JW.org. JW Broadcasting, etc etc etc
The quality of the educational work is second to none, through the amazing quality now of the videos and production of informative material. Look at the well organized improvement in volunteer work in lands where disasters occur.
I have many friends “in the truth” who have put their businesses on hold in the UK to volunteer their skills in many lands where Kingdom Halls are being constructed at amazing time scales. This is just a tiny glimpse into Jehovah’s Organization.
The evidence was piling up: The work of the apostles was indeed from God!
The overwhelming evidence is that the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is backed up by Jehovah himself. Are You going to be like the Sanhedrin, absolutely hurt and devastated by the vanity of the ill will you feel towards Jehovah’s Organisation. It is the now and the future. It will never be allowed to fail. You have no reliable evidence to the contrary and you will never be able to provide any evidence to the contrary.
You keep using the statement “our”, as such let me ask you a question. Do you believe that Jehovah and his son Jesus Christ exist.? If so who do you believe that they are using to inform people about themselves and their purposes or how are they doing it?
It really does look like you are sitting around waiting in vain for something calamitous to happen to Jehovah’s Witnesses, when in fact calamity is soon to befall this wicked evil system of things under Satan’s control. Jehovah’s Kingdom will rule forever. Hooray.

Ricardo, I’m not sure who you are really, but if you know your scriptures then take to heart 2 Thessalonians 3:2 which says “and that we may be rescued from harmful and wicked men, for faith is not a possession of all people.”
If you are struggling with your faith, seek help at your local congregation level
These type of forums, platforms are not for people with a weak faith.

@Silas, I appreciate your concern for my spiritual health. However, due to the brutal treatment I have received from the elders in various congregation, I believe I am suffering from Religious Trauma Syndrome, but in my case it’s not from leaving my religion, but from staying in and continuing to be bullied by our tyrant elders.

It’s like going to a mechanic, Silas. If you go to the mechanic and he makes your car worse, and then you go to him again when you have trouble with your car and he makes your car worse, and then it happens once again, you are a fool if you are going to keep going back to that mechanic.

In the same way, the elders are held up as our spiritual mechanics. I have gone to them again and again and again. Each time they bugger up my life more. Why are you asking me to go to see them again? I am traumatized by my treatment from them. I think it is very unwise as well as unkind to recommend that I see them again. Are you missing a few cogs upstairs?

You speak so wonderfully of the organization and the elders, I can’t help myself but help you to have a more balanced view.

I was disgusted when I watched the Royal Commission, and am aware that many other witnesses were also. I’m in constant contact with many who are disgusted and who are losing or have lost their faith in the organization and its leaders.

The Royal Commission cannot be compared to the apostles appearing before the sanhedrin. In our case, it is our organization which is in the wrong. Procedures have not been followed. Millions of dollars of compensation is being paid out not because the Watchtower organization is in the right.

And yet the Governing Body refuses to fix things up.

Let me assure you that I have no problem with my faith in Jehovah, my faith in him is very strong but I have lost total faith in the elders and our leadership. Let me assure you also, there are many brothers like me.

You have called many people on this site apostates accusing them of doom mongering with doomsday predictions. That is highly ironic to me and makes me assume that you have not watched The ARC testimony of your GB member yet have ya?

Did you know that during the ARC testimony an anointed one…from the GB was asked if he believed that the JW GB is the ONLY group of men with whom Jehovah God communicates (present tense) and guess what he said? He said no. Under an oath he took to God to tell the truth in court (hand on a bible oath) he said it would be awfully presumptuous of him to believe that were true.

I was shocked and wondered how that would make a JW feel. You live your life based upon the premise that you are in the one true religion and ONLY through your religion can you properly worship Jehovah and be eligible for everlasting life here on earth (unless you are an anointed one who will be a King/Priest up in heaven judging those during the 1000 year reign (is there still a 1000 year reign or did the overlapping generations and new light shorten that up)? I’m not even going to discuss the 144,000.

Anyway, what does that mean to you? I would have questions…. Are there other religions that please Jehovah? Other religions that have members that will not perish?

If Jehovah is communicating with others (in addition to the governing body) ….is it possible that you are witnessing to people that may belong to a religion that is also blessed by Jehovah? Could you be witnessing to someone to whom Jehovah God is already providing direct spiritual guidance? (I can hear you shouting “blasphemy!!!” and “apostate driven lies” at the computer screen right now) Seems like a real time-waster to convert someone who already has everlasting life in the bag.

Now, I know, the JW doctrine requires you to call someone who said there was more than one true religion an apostate. I also know if you walked into a Kingdom hall and told the Elders that they should not presume to believe that the GB are the only ones to whom Jehovah provides spiritual light, you would be disfellowshipped faster than I can say Bob’s your Uncle!

Speaking of Uncle’s (creepy ones in particular). Mr. Lett recently called the rumors of child sexual abuse false and blamed apostate driven lies for those “rumors” (which are no longer rumors and are now documented facts). Mr. Lett discouraged you from going on the internet and reading information or watching youtube videos made by the apostates so that you won’t have your faith shaken in these “last days” (they are still saying that right? ‘last days’?) Speaking of “Last Days” (which never goes out of style – people been preaching bout the last days for what? Almost a century? I can’t keep up with early doctrinal changes which would be awesome for the GB if no one else could either) – Anyway, back on topic, has it occurred to you that the JW religion consists of a doomsday doctrine at it’s core? Think about it….when you go out in service, your mission is to spread the “truth” “good news” that the end is near! (great news right?!?) BUT….if they refuse the good news then they will be destroyed by our loving God during Armageddon (which is going to be here any minute so you better join our religion and save yourself… hurry!! The end is near!!! Dont lose your chance at everlasting life!!!)

If your religion is based upon scripture then it should stand up to scrutiny and engaging in a healthy debate about religious doctrine should not shake your faith…unless….the doctrine you believe is not supported by scripture. If you are strong-minded, you should be able to research your religion and research other things too. A news article or youtube video should not be cause for your religion’s GB to be concerned about – unless the doctrine won’t hold up to scrutiny and is not scripturally defensible (in which case I can see why they tell you not to use the internet for anything except their website)

I belong to a Christian church and not one time – ever, ever, ever, have we been told not to read the paper, not to go on the internet or not to speak to non-Christians because we believe in a loving God and….my church doesn’t need to use scare tactics to keep its congregation numbers from falling. In fact, we are allowed to speak to our family members that do not belong to our church as well as anyone who is no longer a member of our church (unless they are a pedophile).

Good luck and I hope you do your research – You deserve a good life and a good relationship with Christ – a personal relationship that doesn’t require intermediaries. God bless.

@Silas, Oh dear, it has been 100% because of human endeavor that the organization is where it is today.

It’s by scaring people into thinking that God is going to destroy the earth at any moment in a horrible Armageddon is what keeps people paying out their hard earned money into the contribution boxes and supplying free labor for all the Kingdom hall projects.

It’s by guilt trips if they all don’t attend all assemblies where they are tricked into thinking there’s deficits when in reality, they are being billed and all the extra funds go to Watchtower.

It’s by tricking old people into leaving all their money and homes and stocks and whatever jewels they might have when they die by making them think that the Society is poor, but in reality, they have become owners of all the Kingdom Halls in the world and all the Bethels and Warwick and all the other compounds they have tricked gullible people into paying for with free labor and money.

I actually think Watchtower wants to be found out because they will become the richest land owners and real estate owners on the face of the earth (if they are found out and go under as far as all the rank and file walking away for good when they find out it’s all a scam) and all they had to do was start a doomsday cult with people like us who bought into their Armageddon fear, which by the way has been working for religions the world over for 2,000 years.

The scam of using Revelation’s mention of Armageddon and making people believe the Bible is from a god, is a great money maker and you are just a pawn for them.

Most of us here, know exactly what arguments you are using because we said the same things over and over again ourselves.

We were all promised that Armageddon was going to happen before the generation of 1914 died out and then it was changed now to an overlapping generation of 1914 and many sold their homes to pioneer with that promise and gave up having kids because the “end was so near”. The Governing Body has to realize that the only reason people keep hanging on is because of the fear of Armageddon, which they have used to control us and it really works.

It took me a long time to lose that fear because it is so ingrained in Witnesses. That is because the Society uses the same scriptures over and over again, that just as in the days of Noah, people won’t pay attention etc. etc. but that day will instantly over take them and people would laugh and ridicule us etc. etc. We all were brought under Watchtower control by those scriptures too and believe it too and preached it too. Been there. Done that.

Prove that the Bible is inspired of a God that made the heavens and earth and wrote it (the Bible) and made sure that we got it just the way he had those people write it down. Even Watchtower has to admit that there is no Bible that anybody has that is inspired of God. I will quote word for word from the forward in the book “The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures” on page 7:

“The original writings of the Christian Greek Scriptures, commonly called “The New Testament,” were inspired. No translation of these sacred writings into another language except by the original writers, is inspired.” ”

If you can prove that any Bible that we have today is inspired of God, I am all ears. Please prove that an invisible God (who nobody can describe) came along out of total darkness and void, produced all that we have today, including the heavens and the earth and all that is on it and the angels etc. He didn’t even have a home until he made it (the heavens).

We were told that evolution is impossible because how could life begin out of non life but that is exactly what we were taught to believe when it comes to God creating the heavens and earth and because a person may not understand how that could happen and has doubts about that God, that person will be destroyed at Armageddon. It doesn’t matter what good deeds that person did in his life time. It all depends on what that person “believes”.

In other words, God is going to destroy me because I don’t “believe” something. I don’t have a choice whether or not I believe something. It’s not a choice. It’s my thoughts in my head. I only “believe” what I can know for a fact. That is what I believe and faith is not a virtue. Faith is only believing in something.

Sila’s, old buddy. Seeing you take everything in the bible to heart, have a go at Mark 16 17-18 and see how you get on. You can do it right now in the privacy of your own home. If you survive, I will from now on listen to everything you say. Good luck.

The WT claims it did not exist for some 1800 years, but they say the church went apostate. Their belief contradicts Jesus’ words, “I’ll build my congregation and the gates of Hades will not over throw it.” His words were those or very close…I didn’t look em up, but you can in the book of Matthew. He was talking to Peter.

There was a time spoken about in the Bible book of Acts when the future looked grim for the apostles and the disciples of Jesus. Jews opposed Christians. The judges of the Jewish people known as the Sanhedrin were determined to have them put to death. Why not read it for yourself at Acts 5:33.
However, things took an unexpected turn.
Gamaliel, who was an expert in the Law, stood up and warned his fellow Judges not to act hastily. This is what he told them “If this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them.” Then he made an incredible statement. Gamaliel added: “Otherwise, you may perhaps be found fighters actually against God.” READ IT FOR YOURSELF AT Acts 5:34, 38, 39.
Amazingly, the court accepted Gamaliel’s advice. The Sanhedrin “summoned the apostles, flogged them, and ordered them to stop speaking upon the basis of Jesus’ name, and let them go.” Far from being intimidated, however, the apostles were determined to obey the angelic command to preach. Thus, after their release, “every day in the temple and from house to house [the apostles] continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.” (Acts 5:40, 42) Jehovah blessed their efforts. To the extent that “The word of God went on growing, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying in Jerusalem very much.” In fact, “a great crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith.” (Acts 6:7) That must have hurt the chief priests.
Sad to say therein lies your problem.
Its been a few years since I last visited this site forum.
It’s the same old complaints and moaning occurring by the majority of people on the forum.
But there is an incredible amount of work taking place in the preaching activity.
Phenomenal success of ministry work, through the street carts, JW.org. JW Broadcasting, etc etc etc
The quality of the educational work is second to none, through the amazing quality now of the videos and production of informative material. Look at the well organized improvement in volunteer work in lands where disasters occur.
I have many friends “in the truth” who have put their businesses on hold in the UK to volunteer their skills in many lands where Kingdom Halls are being constructed at amazing time scales. This is just a tiny glimpse into Jehovah’s Organization.
The evidence was piling up: The work of the apostles was indeed from God!
The overwhelming evidence is that the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is backed up by Jehovah himself. Are You going to be like the Sanhedrin, absolutely hurt and devastated by the vanity of the ill will you feel towards Jehovah’s Organisation. It is the now and the future. It will never be allowed to fail. You have no reliable evidence to the contrary and you will never be able to provide any evidence to the contrary.
You keep using the statement “our”, as such let me ask you a question. Do you believe that Jehovah and his son Jesus Christ exist.? If so who do you believe that they are using to inform people about themselves and their purposes or how are they doing it?
It really does look like you are sitting around waiting in vain for something calamitous to happen to Jehovah’s Witnesses, when in fact calamity is soon to befall this wicked evil system of things under Satan’s control. Jehovah’s Kingdom will rule forever. Hooray.

@silas, none of the work that has been accomplished in the JW organization has been by Jehovah. It’s all been done by men. Do you pray to Jehovah? Why? Has Jehovah ever accomplished a single miracle outside of the Bible? Why pray? Can you prove that Jehovah is the creator of heaven and earth? How can you prove it? I am all ears if you can do that and you will win a Nobel prize in doing it.

Just looking around at the complexity of life is not proof. If we aren’t supposed to believe that out of non living life came living life, than why am I supposed to believe that an invisible God who can’t be described, created the heavens and earth out of nothing either?

Caroline, the bible makes it clear that we exist and have life because of Jehovah, and he uses us to accomplish his will.
Yes I pray to Jehovah, I thank him, ask him for help, give him praise, ask him to help others, etc etc and I have had prayers answered. It’s a means of communication with him.
Imagine you could travel back in time, let’s say 500 years, like me obviously you’d probably want to take your iPhone. You meet some medieval people and you take out your phone and you telll them it is a device for speaking to people anywhere in the earth, even in outer space. No doubt they consider you a witch and burn you at the stake. They would find it unbelievable such a device could do that.
We believe Jehovah is all powerful. He’s created the means for man to produce these devices where they can communicate in an apparent invisible way (to human eyesight that is)
So bearing that in mind is it really so hard to believe we can communicate with Jehovah through prayer.
On the matter of creationI do not believe you have an open enough mind to be able to accept anything I can inform you of over this type of forum. That’s why we spend hours and hours in the ministry, discussing things like that face to face. However perhaps you’d care to answer this for me.
Imagine there are ten stages of development of ape that have progressed to intelligent man.
No doubt you see that first stage ape are happily existing and Have been for thousands of years with no discernible evolutionary development.
And then we have tenth stage intelligent man happily coexisting with them and again not showing any signs of evolutionary development.
My question to you is where is all the evidence that there ever was a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 stages. Where else are scientists going to dig to get to the abundance of evidence that would surely be available if it was true?
I believe in creation because it was an informed decision over time and study. I’ve studied Evolution and it makes no sense. If Darwin had the advanced scientific equipment available now to scientists would he really have come up with his theories which by the way many scientists have distanced themselves from his work.
The Bible does describe Jehovah.
Describes him as a Spirit person having 4 cardinal qualities of love, justice, wisdom and power
That’s just for starters.
Scientists have ever changing theories about the origin of life and universe, i.e. Physical tangible things.
How about qualities, like love, sense of justice, kindness, joy, self control, goodness, intelligence, appreciation of art, music etc etc where did these qualities come from? How did they evolve?
Just to end on a light note.
I watched an interview with Racquel Welsh the other night. Made me wonder what evolutionists believe was going on in the mind of these so called prehistoric beings i.e. Were they grunting in their mind as well.

Silas, evolution does not make sense to you because you haven’t studied it.

Evolution is proven, even we, with as little as 200 years of “science”, being it just the time humanity had to explore and look at things without being burned for it. There are babies born without apendice, it has been proven that if for one generation, both parents and some grand-parent, had the apencice removed, it gives a chance of around 5 to 10% for the newborn to come without one, same as wisdom teeth but it lower probability, I have a case in my family. What for some is considered an aberration (like you), for most of intelligent is considered evolution, and not only that, even our brains have grown bigger in 100 years or less (for some earth areas). Also climatic and earth phenomens (volcanoes, earthquakes and such), also proves earth is aging and evolving, much like we do. In case you don’t know, we’ve been adding leap seconds every now and then, because the solar system is slowing down, aging, evolving. Please, don’t come with one book (Darwin) against one book (bible), you won’t win, you need more books. I can’t eve accept that I will be burnt in hell or forgotten dead just because I’m an atheist (former catholic, expelled), I do good things, I keep myself and my family happy, I’m a good citizen, I’ve cheated my wife among other things. It makes NO SENSE at all that only and if only I have “salvation” if I believe in a book, written by man, modified by man, with the single purpose of commanding simple minds.. like yours. Open your eyes! If there is a god, I’m pretty sure that the ones without salvation, are those who believe in the cult of men and not himself. I am my own god, I conduct my life.

Antunes a few questions please to help clarify your statements. You stated it makes no sense that you will become among the forgotten dead, just because you are an atheist. My question is, do you believe you will live forever, though you don’t believe in God? If that claim is not the impression you meant to make, then let’s consider if it makes sense if a Biblical God does exists that an atheist would die and be forgotten. If God exists, and if he offers life forever, but we turn down his offer, not accepting his hand offered for our salvation then wouldn’t it make sense to you, that a person who does that would eventually die and be forgotten forever?

A second question please. Are you aware that scientists have discovered that the universe is actually accelerating as it expands? They previously thought it would be slowing down, due to the gravitation effect on heavenly bodies. However, while measuring how fast the universe is separating, using the Doppler effect, scientists some years ago discovered that bodies are accelerating away from each other. Scientists could only account for this by coining concepts they call dark matter and dark energy, which they claim are invisible forces that have a measurable effect on heavenly bodies.

A third question please. What if you’re right about the theory of evolution, and your faith in God extinguish because men interpreted the Bible incorrectly, while insisting they were correct. How would you feel if you learned God does exist, but the interpretations of scripture by men was inaccurate?

Caroline, the bible makes it clear that we exist and have life because of Jehovah, and he uses us to accomplish his will.
Yes I pray to Jehovah, I thank him, ask him for help, give him praise, ask him to help others, etc etc and I have had prayers answered. It’s a means of communication with him.
Imagine you could travel back in time, let’s say 500 years, like me obviously you’d probably want to take your iPhone. You meet some medieval people and you take out your phone and you telll them it is a device for speaking to people anywhere in the earth, even in outer space. No doubt they consider you a witch and burn you at the stake. They would find it unbelievable such a device could do that.
We believe Jehovah is all powerful. He’s created the means for man to produce these devices where they can communicate in an apparent invisible way (to human eyesight that is)
So bearing that in mind is it really so hard to believe we can communicate with Jehovah through prayer.
On the matter of creationI do not believe you have an open enough mind to be able to accept anything I can inform you of over this type of forum. That’s why we spend hours and hours in the ministry, discussing things like that face to face. However perhaps you’d care to answer this for me.
Imagine there are ten stages of development of ape that have progressed to intelligent man.
No doubt you see that first stage ape are happily existing and Have been for thousands of years with no discernible evolutionary development.
And then we have tenth stage intelligent man happily coexisting with them and again not showing any signs of evolutionary development.
My question to you is where is all the evidence that there ever was a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 stages. Where else are scientists going to dig to get to the abundance of evidence that would surely be available if it was true?
I believe in creation because it was an informed decision over time and study. I’ve studied Evolution and it makes no sense. If Darwin had the advanced scientific equipment available now to scientists would he really have come up with his theories which by the way many scientists have distanced themselves from his work.
The Bible does describe Jehovah.
Describes him as a Spirit person having 4 cardinal qualities of love, justice, wisdom and power
That’s just for starters.
Scientists have ever changing theories about the origin of life and universe, i.e. Physical tangible things.
How about qualities, like love, sense of justice, kindness, joy, self control, goodness, intelligence, appreciation of art, music etc etc where did these qualities come from? How did they evolve?
Just to end on a light note.
I watched an interview with Racquel Welsh the other night. Made me wonder what evolutionists believe was going on in the mind of these so called prehistoric beings i.e. Were they grunting in their mind as well.
Any ideas on that?

Silas, just because the Bible says that we exist and have life because of Jehovah, does not make it a fact. That is circular reasoning.

I also prayed to Jehovah and to me Jehovah was also a real person. I believed he was everywhere and omnipresent and so I thought I was talking to him and he was listening to me and that whatever I asked of him and it was in accordance with his will that he would answer my prayers and many times I also thought that Jehovah answered my prayers.

I was not alone in thinking that and believe it or not, most people who pray to God (any god) also think the same thing.

It doesn’t matter what god they pray to, they think God is listening and that He will answer their prayers if those prayers are in accordance to his will because in their own minds, that god is a real person but does that make it a fact that God is a real person and is everywhere and listening to our prayers, or is that God, our own “imaginary friend” that we are talking to?

Nobody can answer where our universe came from or how we got here. Nobody knows and nobody has the answers, not even the smartest of scientists.

It doesn’t matter what Darwin taught or believed. Mankind has learned a lot in the last 150 years about evolution.

Watchtower would have us believe it’s either evolution or creation by a god and that evolution is all about us coming from Apes but that is not what evolution is.

Evolution means life evolved. That’s all. How it started is the unknown but to say “God made it” is way to simple.

How did an invisible God in a complete void make everything out of nothing? That is the question I keep asking.

Watchtower wants us to believe that everything that is on the earth and the universe came from Jehovah just because the Bible says so but where is the evidence and I am supposed to believe that with no evidence or die at Armageddon.

There is evidence that species evolve. The weaker die out and the stronger evolve into stronger and stronger species such as germs for one example. We now have super germs because weaker ones were killed off by stronger and stronger antibiotics and so what is left over are the super bacteria. That is just one example of evolution that you might understand.

If you can prove that there was a god that created everything out of nothing, you will win a Nobel prize, but until then, all it is is speculation how we got here.

There is no reputable scientist on this earth who can prove in creation by any god.

What we have is one version of how life began and that is the Bible. But there are lots of other versions as well besides the Bible and those versions go back thousands of years and those stories are just as fanciful and just as unbelievable.

I do have an open mind to accept any evidence that you can come up with to prove that there was a god that created everything that is on the earth and in the universe.

If you have any evidence, I am all ears but again I will ask you why you pray to Jehovah when there are no miracles outside of the Bible that he has done that can be verified.

Caroline, Sorry but if you were really interested in my answers to your questions you would be doing your own investigations by now by going on to JW.org, where all your queries about Jehovah, Jesus Christ , creation, evolution, etc etc etc are addressed. Or you could easily discuss with the witnesses when they call at your home as face to face discussions suit your concerns.
I have only come on this particular blog to ask the participants on what basis are they predicting an an end to Jehovah’s Organization.

The trouble with this website is that there appears to be many apostates masquerading as innocent, inexperienced and naive, but all have some sort of axe to grind, mixed in with a twisted jealousy issue.
The headline for this blog read
“The 2017 Yearbook is now available on JW.org, and the much-anticipated figures in the “Service Year Report” tell the story of an organization that is haemorrhaging members and barely keeping its head above water.” Really !!!
I consider this to be a baseless statement and obviously being on the outside you ignore the truth.
So I was hoping for a sensible discussion about this.
So to detract from the falsehood you think that time wasting discussions on creation, evolution etc etc will divert attention.
ive not come on to convert your thinking.
everyone is answerable for their own actions and beliefs.

silas, I was fully indoctrinated in the JW religion for 50 years since I was baptized in January 1966 and was fully “in” until 2015 and I was a strong believer in God and I keep up with jwbroadcasting and jw.org. and what all they print and publish to the public and the study articles. There wasn’t much that got past me and I remember real good.

I have almost all our literature since 1950 and many, many books dating back from 1900 way ahead of you when it comes to Watchtower knowledge and literature and what they teach and what they taught and you don’t stand a chance when it comes to how much you know Watchtower or the Bible and how much I know Watchtower and the Bible, so you don’t have to encourage me to go to jw.org. or to read the Bible to find answers. I way ahead of you there.

No matter how hard you look in Watchtower literature, you will never ever find a description of Jehovah. All you will find in our literature is all about his name and nothing else. See if you can find a description of Jehovah in any of our literature and come back and tell us. I would like to see it.

To say that he is love, justice, wisdom and power is not a description of the person of Jehovah. All that is is describing his qualities.

If you were going to describe a person who went into a bank and robbed it, you would need more than that for a description, especially when that bank robber is invisible.

You misunderstand what an atheist is. An atheist does not say they don’t believe in a god.

They are saying that until they see any evidence of that god, they don’t believe that that god exists.

There is no name for a person who doesn’t believe in the tooth fairy but unfortunately they put a name on a person who doesn’t believe in a god and it sounds evil but it is the same as not believing in a tooth fairy until you actually see visible evidence of a tooth fairy but unlike the person who doesn’t believe in a tooth fairy, they put a name on the person who doesn’t believe in a god.

Believe it or not you are also an atheist because you only believe in your god. What about all the other gods that people believe in all over the world?

When the kid sees a dollar under his pillow in the morning and his tooth is gone, he believes a tooth fairy came along and exchanged his tooth for the dollar but when he grows older, he realizes that his parents left the dollar and he no longer believes in the tooth fairy. Until he got older he really believed in the tooth fairy. He believed it because he got the dollar in the morning but with growing up, he realizes there is no tooth fairy and there was a logical explanation for the dollar.

Until I see evidence of a god that made the heavens and earth and every bad and good thing in the universe, I don’t believe it and there is no way of proving it one way or disproving it so I don’t understand your reasoning that I should die at Armageddon for not believing what you believe, just because the Bible said it.

What proof do you have, other than just a strong belief?

I will believe if you can convince me. I am not saying there is no god.

I believe the proof that God exists or not is germane to this discussion because the more people question the source of their religion, the more they will stop supporting that religion if they finally put the source of their religion (the Bible) to the test and find out it is full of contradictions and fables and not “inspired” of any god after all. Kill the source and kill the animal.

If the Bible is man made, then that destroys any religion that attaches itself to it and I want that religion to dissolve into nothing and not let it run and ruin people’s lives anymore and maybe, just maybe I can get back my family who won’t talk to me because right now, they think that I am the one that went off the deep end and left reality but in reality, they are the ones that are completely in the dark and serving greedy men and not any god and because of that hold that that religion has over them, they think they have to shun me and I want that religion to end soon before I die and before my children have wasted their precious lives on a publishing company that is passing itself off as a “Christian” religion.

I did not say that Acts 5 specifically applies to the growth of Jehovahs Witnesses.
I used that scripture as an example to show you that the doom mongering and doomsdays scenario predictions of many on this blog are in vain.
It reminds me of King Canute ordering the rising water to cease and also you are all attempting to stop a juggernaut,
Time to wake up.
The Bible shows that Jehovah allowed all these Christians to grow together over the ages.
It describes the true religion as “wheat” and imitation christians as “weeds”. They grew together.
To cut a long story short, we are now in “harvest time”
A separating work has been in progress i.e. Wheat from the Weeds. True Christianity is plainly on view.

Silas, the wheat is the 144,000 but you are right about the weeds being imitation Christians and my motives are clear and you are right in that I don’t need to go to you to answer any of my questions since I don’t have any questions.

This is a very interesting comment – how can “wheat” and imitation/”weed” Christians be identified when:

** The Bible does not have a universally accepted Canon – the number of books vary from 66 to 81 depending on whether you are Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox or Ethiopian Orthodox?

** The Bible offers more than one theological position:
– Jesus Christ is God/Jesus Christ is not God;
– man has an immortal soul/man does not have an immaterial part of him that survives the death of the body
etc.?

We are not presently in the harvest time. Even the society has admitted the separating work has not started yet, but they agree that work will be done by Jesus’ angels when he returns. Your thinking in that area is old WT thinking not their present belief.

We are still in the sowing period which means the weeds are still mixed with the wheat including in WT as well as other Christian religions. However, it may be fact that those other denominations are doomed if its also a fact that God’s will is Christians don’t attend universities, or celebrate birthdays, or vote- in other words exercise their freedom of conscious, but instead have a gb make decisions of conscious for them. That is unless I’m wrong and the Bible really does at least allude to those things being against God’s will.

You are wrong and erroneous in your false thinking on the Bible and the teachings of Jehovah’s Organisation
There are two seperate issues here.
The wheat and weeds illustration
is different from the sheep from goats illustration
People have until the start of the great tribulation to decide who’s side they are on.
So obviously Jesus in his role as King will separate sheep from goats towards the end of that time period of the great tribulation. So the separating of sheep and goats has not started yet.
However this is the harvest time
Not sure where you are getting your info from
That’s why the Bible describes those who love the present wicked world and don’t want Jehovahs rule as living in darkness.

Seems to me if people decided they were on Jehovah’s side and so harvested as you claim then there would be no need for Christ to have them separated later; just save the harvested group that decided they are on Jehovah’s side, as you suggested. The scriptural answer is that no one is saved by any organization or group. Only one person was given the authority to save, and he saves whom he wants regardless of their place in any church. The first will be last, and the last will be first in the kingdom.

No Silas I believe from a Biblical standpoint I’m correct. Christ told his disciples while he walked the Earth that they were harvesting where they did not sow in their day. Christ also warned that from among them wolves would arise. So, from a Biblical perspective the harvest system started in the first century, not in the 19th or 20th as you believe. Or do you not accept Christ’s words, possibly replacing Christ’s statements with WT’s or your own? And as you agreed people are not separated for salvation until after Christ returns then our work is more like sowing, for we don’t make the seeds grow anyway, only God does that. And their fully harvested at Christ’s return.

Since the harvest really started back in the first century to reel people into having faith in Christ, then what definitive scriptural proof can you present that CHRISTIAN’S are harvested again?

As for the need for separating now true Christians are and always have been taught by holy spirit, and therefore would need no separating from weeds in Christianity. It makes no sense because more weeds would just arrive which would necessitate the separating you agreed only angels do. And that’s part of the logic for doing it then. And Christ also had in mind not to hurt or uproot the faith of his true disciples.

Are you speaking of the scripture that says, “In the final part of the days they will go up to the mountain of Jehovah” having taken the hand of a Jew in an attempt to make your point? That’s not definitive to make your point, for spiritual Jews have always existed inside Christianity.

And brother, I don’t know if you are an easily agitated person or not, but do you think that Christ would revert to name calling while engaging in a Biblical discussion? I agree he did do some name calling, but he knew those people were trying to kill him, and they oppressed people who served God with unbiblical rules like teaching it’s ungodly to seek a secular education.

Sorry Caroline, but I don’t know who you really are and I’m beginning to question your real motives.
I’m not the person you need, in order to answer your queries you really need personal help on a face to face basis and not this blog. Not sure why you feel it necessary to continue diverting from my issue with the lies in the heading of this particular blog. “Bad omens,”
“Haemorrhaging members”. All a load of nonsense. Being as no one has anything sensible to say in defence of it, I shall take my leave of this discussion.

Ricardo, I’m not sure who you are really, but if you know your scriptures then take to heart 2 Thessalonians 3:2 which says “and that we may be rescued from harmful and wicked men, for faith is not a possession of all people.”
If you are struggling with your faith, seek help at your local congregation level
These type of forums, platforms are not for people with a weak faith.

I appreciate your faith in God and his son. Like you most of us, maybe even all on this forum believed like you, that we were members of God’s only Earthly religious organization. Even though many here do speak about a possible doom for the Watchtower organization, that’s not the central message. The central message here is the harm caused by that organization. When I believed like you I didn’t fully see that harm even though I had many glimpses of it which included disgusting actions from elders and groups of elders.

So, there is no way I will condemn you for your position, since I was once like you, I fully understand your position. Many here understand it.

To me the worst thing WT has done is destroy faith in God, as you yourself have seen from visiting this site. Biblically that cannot be excused. And that’s why I comment here. And that’s probably why Ricardo and ones like him do also, but I can only speak for myself.

@Silas, I doubt you are really all that concerned, I think you just like pushing our buttons and seeing us respond.

I agree with messenger. My reason for commenting on this site is because I see our organization kicking own goals, and guys like you thinking it is fantastic. Child abuse isn’t fantastic. Mental and emotional abuse is not fantastic. Joining the UN as an associated NGO was not a smart move. How you can clap your hands and think such things are fantastic is beyond me.

I can see such things bringing disrepute on Jehovah’s name, and that really saddens me.

Unfortunately we cannot talk about such things in our congregations because we will be shunned for being negative. And yet it is reality. And the GB are giving no explanations.

Live in LaLa Land if you like, Silas. Go over the cliff in the bus laughing with the other passengers about the great picnic you are going to have. But at the bottom of the cliff, when you are mangled in the wreckage, please excuse us for thinking you are a crazy nut.

Silas is afraid that the sheeple will dwindle to the point where there will soon be no one for him to rule over as an elder and satisfy his need for self-importance. So his position, status and power as an elder are threatened

Dee2
I’m not an elder or ministerial, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know an apostate.
The problem is nobody is listening to you.
Why don’t you contact Big Media outlets to expose Jehovah Organisation if you and the others truly believe you sound basis for the Organization being a “big lie” as expressed by your fellow apostates.
Goodbye for now.

@Silas, a study of the Youtube videos with witnesses explaining why they are leaving will show the apostates are having success.

From my study, I see that a witness starts finding something hard to understand, like the new understanding on generation, for instance. Then they hear about the sex abuse cases and the Royal Commission. Because they can get no explanation from the elders or Governing Body, they come seeking info on the internet. In their search they may find something very disturbing, like the Watchtower being an associated NGO with the UN, supporting its tenets. This blows their mind (as it should) and with no explanation coming from the GB, they look for more. And there are so many shocking things to find out.

This is not my experience, but it is a general pattern I can see happening. And I think the decreases in so many lands are evidence of some success.

I know some congregations where a substantial number of brothers secretly actually don’t believe the witnesses anymore, but they still go to meetings and do their privileges. What caused them to question things? The internet and sites like this.

So, these sites are being consulted by quite a number of witnesses. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Caroline
No disrespect intended but it’s not for people outside the truth to question about being an elder or MS
I am not a woman
Never, ever have I come across your age guide of 23
You will not find this figure as being a teaching of Jehovahs Organization
Again you are coming out with false propaganda
Keep it coming
Whats next?

Caroline
As I keep informing you this is not the forum or platform for learning the truth about Jehovahs Organization
Tony Morris3- who is he really, how factual is his life story, how trustworthy and honest is he, what axe does he have to grind, where does he get his info?
What’s his motive for spreading this false propaganda.
The information I give you is not made up. It can be found easily by you by just a few taps on your computer devices.

Whip It
I don’t know you or your story and motives, but I can 100% assure you that if there was any shred of fact in your comment “the ORG is a big fat lie machine”, then UK media outlets would be only to happy to expose the big fat lie, as you put it.
In the UK, there’s BBC Panorama, Channel 4 Dispatches, Channel 5 devotes air time to exposes’
There are major Newspapers who do exposes’ particularly the ones who send in undercover people.
All of these media,organisations would be falling over themselves trying to get a scoop.
Jehovahs Organization is open to the public,
You can visit the Kingdom halls, you can visit Assembly Halls, Branch Offices etc.
But alas the only “mouse roaring” is this mediocre, insignificant, puny little website, that’s shouting in the dark.
I’m not an elder or ministerial servant.
Every so often, I visit this site, and it continues to be the blind leading the blind.
It’ll be interesting to visit again, to see the future lies and propaganda by you apostates.
Goodbye for now

I am just catching up on this chain of comments. I know that the empty arguments made by folks like Silas sound like finger nails on a chalkboard (or perhaps a clanging cymbal is a more appropriate phrase), but it is necessary in the awakening process.

Athough he will refuse to admit it, there is usually only one reason people like Silas come to this site: they have nagging doubts about the organization. Otherwise, they would follow the orders from their JW overlords and flee from any contact with apostates online (after all, what if Armageddon came while he was blogging online with us – would the angels be able to differentiate between Silas and the evil apostates???).

Because of the nagging doubts they refuse to admit exist, they attempt to come online to prove to themselves that they still have the truth. But when they fail to be able to do so (because it is really impossible for them to do) they come away just slightly less convinced of their rightness. The organization has most of its members convinced that they are intellectuals with an education (provided by the Watchtower) that exceeds any of the intellectuals of this world. They believe that they can prove this is the truth through logical argument and debate. However, when that fails, as it usually does, they resort to parroting the organization through rhetorical fallacy and condemnation. But even though they refuse to admit it, they come away less convinced of their rightness.

So as frustrating as it can be, they need us as a sounding board so they can wake up.

@Silas, I am just glad that the witnesses haven’t been investigated too much by the media. Once the general public get to know of the suffering so many victims are experiencing from the abuse of our ‘loving’ shepherds, we are finished.

How many brothers are going to be able to preach with their head held high when the general public around them are calling them pedophiles? Or abusers?

I know a number of brothers where I am in Australia who could not stomach going door to door when the Royal Commission brought out its findings.

Let’s hope the media just leave us alone so we don’t need to be publicly, but justly, embarrassed.

Ricardo,
I can’t comment on your concerns regarding paedophiles and their activities in public forums.
I do not have any knowledge of any cases.
It’s not the epidemic in the U.K. As some bloggers would have us believe.
I’m in the UK
Suffice to say that the Bible states that Jehovah God is allowing human rule Governments temporarily and they (according to the Bible) are there to administer justice for the “bad” as the Bible puts it. So if the legal systems of this World deem it necessary to punish wrong doing let them get on with it. I believe Punishment must fit the Crime.
I am commanded by Jehovah to obey “Caesars Law”. Which means all people who commit unlawful sexual acts especially against children and sexual assaults in general should face the consequences of their.
Unequivocal.
But it does not alter the fact that Jehivah has a date for Armageddon
A date that was set ages ago. He wants us to warn people of this World about it. So it’s up to you if you want to continue the work.
No one is being forced to do it. It’s a voluntary work.
In the book of psalms David writes ” your people will offer themselves willingly”
And Remember Jehovah is backing the work and us.

Silas, I agree with you that people would and “should” offer themselves willingly if they are going to spread the gospel message.

My problem is putting a name on a certain amount of hours that JW’s offered themselves “willingly” in service.

I always felt that if the Society didn’t label people according to how many hours they went in service, that I would have felt a whole lot more like going out but I was put in a category and because I didn’t have the time, money, health, car or circumstances, all I could do was maybe 3 or 4 times a month, I was looked down as not that spiritual and I am pretty sure I was about as “spiritual” as any of the pioneers were.

I always felt looked down on because of that. Also, the Society has all kinds of reasons why we were to count our time in service but to me, it was a way of making us feel compelled to do it, not making it willingly as the Bible said it should be.

If I didn’t report time, the elders would call me to find out why and if a month should go by, where I didn’t count time, I was considered weak and if more than 6 months, I was considered irregular and people would have avoided my company if I didn’t report time every month.

I knew of pioneers who lied about their time and now I think I know why. They were pioneers for the wrong reasons.

If they really wanted to offer themselves “willingly” they would have gone out in service their 70-90 hours every month anyway without having to call themselves pioneers and keeping track of every minute they preached, but they do it for the prestige and being made to feel like one of the group and not looked down on like us lowly and spiritually “weak” “publishers” with no real dignity within the Organization.

Final Note for Now,
I understand that President Elect Donald Trump & Co are spending Billions of dollars purchasing Watchtower buildings in Brooklyn, New York. I understand he and other top businessmen in the world have shown great admiration and are impressed, by the way Jehovahs Organisation operates. A non commercial, non profit, organisation” financed solely by voluntary donations.
So how is it that none of you “big lie”, “conspiracy theorist” apostates, are not calling for a major investigation into these property sale deals.
Oh dear, there are no shady transactions going on is it.
Oh dear, everything is legal and above board is it.
Oh dear , no misappropriation of funds.
Oh dear, there’s nothing going on that compares to Crooked TV evangelists Jimmy Swaggard, Jim Baker, Eddie Ling, Randy and Paula White etc etc etc is it
Oh dear, nothing going financially that compares to the major Roman Catholic Church connections to dodgy Mafia, Banking, and financial scandals. Up to now no explanation by them for the banker hanging by a rope some time ago.
Oh dear, nothing going on to compare with Church of England buying stake and shares in Scandalous loan sharks Wonga.
Oh dear, nothing to going on that compares with the corrupt donation scandals, and sleazy goings on at the Church of Scientology.
The list could go on and on.
You are all Groping in the dark, is phrase that comes to mind.
Why would Jehovah God want his name associated with any of these false religions.

you are missing the point. The fact is the WTS is not transparent and the fact is the WTS is immoral organization. This has nothing to do with legal sphere as you are mixing it.

If you have some detailed statement from WTS showing how much was spent on paper, invested in the JW broadcasting, in the new HQ, how much came as donations globally, share it. Then we will see WTS is transparent org.

As WTS is continually manipulating facts, misquoting sources, testing faith of its members, impose pharisaic rules on the witnesses it is an immoral organization.

I quote your words:
“Why would Jehovah God want his name associated with any of these false religions.”
Yes, I agree. I cannot imagine God selected you 7 human clergymen to be His sole communication channel…

Judge Dreddford
I’m not entirely sure what it is you are accusing Jehovahs Organization of.
Is it embezzlement, fraud, corruption or what ?
What Governmentment authority i.e. FBI, CID. SOCA. INTERPOL. Have expressed any concerns about the financial activities of Jehovahs Witnesses?
Even at a local level, what Government Authorities, any where in the World are expressing legitimate concerns about Jehovahs Witnesses and their financial matters?
Remember Jehovahs Witnesses are in over 200 lands and hundreds of different languages.
So there are plenty of Authorities for you to choose from
So over to you
Your witness

Not everyone here is the same, or logically please include yourself amongst the group you aim your insults at. The big question is do you feel you should be disfellowshipped for communicating with disfellowshipped and disassociated Witnesses? This is a very serious situation, because as you’ve stated in your earlier comment you have come here in the past. This behavior of yours appears habitual. And if you don’t feel you deserve to be disfellowshipped for that then does that belief imply that you need to receive counsel or reproof so that you’ll appreciate the necessity of obeying Jehovah’s organization?

And one final question please, who was it unlawful for Christ to speak to?

Messenger
Once again you have been misinformed so either you are repeating something you’ve heard from someone else or you are deliberately out to deceive just as many are on this forum.
It is not a disfellowshipping issue if a Witness blogs on this website
There would be concerns if a witness came on here and deliberately acting apostate as many on this site do.
I probably call many more apostates in the door to door ministry. It’s a conscience matter.
It’s just interesting to me to hear all the lies, misconceptions and propaganda
All of which none of you provide evidence for.
Not long to go and I’ll be off
So don’t worry about me
I’m sure you all can’t wait for me to go off.
As regards your final question as usual I encourage you all to look up the answers in JW.org
It is there if you can be bothered.

Silas,
You say “I’m not entirely sure what it is you are accusing Jehovahs Organization of.
Is it embezzlement, fraud, corruption or what ?
What Governmentment authority i.e. FBI, CID. SOCA. INTERPOL. ”

What I say is you continually ask whether there is something criminal in WTS activity, but the majority of people here point to the org is immoral. So your comment we should go to Interpol etc. is pointless.

Your “logic” is:
If there is no criminal aspect then everything is fine.

A few years ago, due to high demand of quick build Kingdom Halls in the U.K. the halls being put up tended to be austere buildings. The Organization were keen to keep costs to a minimum. I have worked on quick builds in both design and construction.
However many planning authorities throughout the UK have this notion that in order to get planning permission these days public buildings should not be austere.
Planning Authorities want to see Architectural Masterpieces not just functional public buildings. They want to see effort put into flair and Artistic aesthetics. All of that though puts extra costs on buildings.
So put simply to you Judge Dreddford
I’ve seen first hand the hoops and barriers this system we live in put up against the Organisation and there has never been a single hint of corruption
You can now go back to burying your head in the sand
Goodbye

Silas Caroline’s statement that Anthony Morris III’s claimed that JW men who are 23 and not an appointed ministerial servant should not be viewed by sisters as Christian marriage material was delivered in a zone talk he delivered to the USA branch that was televised to every USA congregation. I think the year was 2014, but I may have the year wrong….I saw that talk as well as every JW in the US there abouts.

Messenger
Why are you asking me questions on specifics that even you can’t recall exactly on events that happened in the USA back in 2014.
Even if this so called Anthony Morris3
stated that, it would still be a matter for the individual conscience. It’s not a “carved in stone”
Bible Teaching
It was possibly a recommendation but it’s not found in publications as a Bible Teaching.
It’s recommended that we discourage our children from going off to universities and colleges,
It’s often said in talks
But again it’s an individual conscience matter
I know quite a number who have been to university and college and they are assets to the organisation.
You can see many of them in the pictures of the Watchtower branch construction sites in IT, Electronics, Engineering etc etc
You probably just can’t get it out of your mind that we belong to some sort of cult and that we can’t operate our consciences and that we are being controlled.
In all congregations there are Jehovahs Witnesses who make good decisions and good choices and those who make bad choices and wrong decisions.
We are not perfect and Jehovah knows that, and he makes allowances for it.
So you’d be wrong
To think that.
Believe me there are no bolts of lightening waiting to strike.

A few years ago, due to high demand of quick build Kingdom Halls in the U.K. the halls being put up tended to be austere buildings. The Organization were keen to keep costs to a minimum. I have worked on quick builds in both design and construction.
However many planning authorities throughout the UK have this notion that in order to get planning permission these days public buildings should not be austere.
Planning Authorities want to see Architectural Masterpieces not just functional public buildings. They want to see effort put into flair and Artistic aesthetics. All of that though puts extra costs on buildings.
So put simply to you Judge Dreddford
I’ve seen first hand the hoops and barriers this system we live in put up against the Organisation and there has never been a single hint of corruption
You can now go back to burying your head in the sand
Goodbye

Tony Morris III is a current governing body member and has been one for some time. He’s one of the authors of the policies you claim to scripturally observe. So now that you know who he is do you still say he spreads false propaganda? And if you think he is doing that then the million dollar question is why are you following him? Whose head is in the sand when you do that? If a blind man follows a blind man they will both fall in the pit.

Again your trap has been spotted long ago
I think I made it quite clear that I am a U.K. Resident. Therefore again I made it quite clear that I do not know this Tony Morris, I am a U.K. Citizen
That’s the thing about real cults,
Their leaders want to make a name for themselves and their leaders want to have worldwide cult status and go down in a blaze of glory and they want glorification.
Humans were not created for that purpose
Our leader is Jesus Christ. Jehovah has given him authority.
So I don’t know Anthony Morris, so what?
Now I refer you to my “recommendation”
“as opposed to Bible Teaching” comments that I made not long ago.

Messenger
We are not automatons,
We are not members of a cult
We are allowed to exercise our own conscience on these matters
If you can find the age of 23 listed as A Bible Teaching with Anthony Morris3 name attributed to it as a Bible Teaching and stated by the organisation as a Teaching to be strictly obeyed and actually written in any publication as such then you are a liar
Exercising your own conscience is encouraged by Jehovahs Organisation

Silas you brought up the point I’ve been trying to help you see in practically every one of my comments directed at you. You said, “Its not a carved in stone Bible teaching.” That is what I have unsuccessfully attempted to help you realize, that you are accepting many teachings as scriptural that are not carved in stone as Biblical. They are instead mere opinions from a group of men, which includes Anthony Morris III, that you accept as carved in stone Bible truth and follow.

And even when comments by such men as Anthony Morris might be accepted as matters of conscience by your local elders the quality of those comments signal what they are. Are they Christ like, or do their comments suggest they mirror the people he condemned while he walked the Earth?

As far as me not remembering the exact date, that point is irrelevant to the events occurrence. I remember what was said.

My advice is that you seriously consider how many of the Bible teachings you follow are really carved in Biblical stone. Please read the complete letters from the apostles. They wrote what is really needed for salvation and describe how we should BOT try to find it.

Judge Dreddford
Are you not aware of the scandalous attempt by the French Government to screw Jehovahs Witnessss over there
Just type in “France Returns Funds Collected Illegally From Jehovah’s Witnesses”
December 11 2014

It made headlines so I’m surprised you didn’t hear about it
Maybe your head was in the sand at the time.

Sorry to keep disturbing your burying your head in the sand
Apologies,
Goodbye

Silas, what are you suggesting about Tony Morris 3rd? Many of us here have tried to find out the background of Tony Morris 3rd too and nobody has been able to come up with anything.

Are you saying that you think he’s an imposter and that’s why his comments are not to be believed as coming from the faithful and discreet slave?

If you have any doubts about Tony Morris 3rd, how do you feel about the rest of the Governing Body because after all, Jesus is supposedly supply all your spiritual food through them and you are right in that the Society has never once put it in writing that if you are past the age of 23, that you are not good marriage material but they also won’t come right out and tell the rank and file (in any public publications) that if they take a blood transfusion that they will be disfellowshipped either but we all know that you will be disfellowshipped for taking it.

They also won’t admit to disfellowshipping us if we disassociate on jw.org or in their (public) magazines, but we all know what is in the “secret” elder’s manual, which isn’t so “secret” anymore.

They also won’t come right out in their public publications that if you are an elder and you let your kid go to college that that elder will be deleted either but that is what is in their secret elder’s manual also.

The Society has three faces: One face for the elders, one face for the rank and file and one face for jw.org which is supposed to give the general public a look into the Watchtower religion online but all of us who are or were Witnesses know the real truth and jw.org likes to conceal the real religion to the public and to their children but all of us adults who are Witnesses know all the rules which were passed down to us by word of mouth from parent to child and study conductor to Bible study student but the Society is too cowardly to put that all in writing. Maybe it’s because if they do, the government will come down on them for misrepresenting itself as a legitimate religion, worthy of tax exemption or maybe it’s because if they put all those rules in writing for everyone to see, then most people would be repulsed by them, that is those who haven’t been slowly indoctrinated like gullible Bible students and gullible children of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

We all know that if we spill the beans about the real rules of the Organization too soon, that it would scare off most intelligent adults and so that is why the studies start off real slow and progress into more and more rules, which that student will gradually be indoctrinated into believing and then once they become “friends” with their study conductor and meeting “friends” at the Kingdom Hall, they will feel like Pariah’s if they stop going and don’t progress to baptism and field service and on and on so they keep on going and going and going with no real way of escaping except to get disfellowshipped.

We all know the rules and how they work don’t we, including you, that is if you are who you say you are.

You say you are not an elder or a woman than I ask you again, why aren’t you an elder or ministerial servant since you seem to be such a staunch supporter of Watchtower?

By the way, why should there be a “secret” elder’s book that only they are privy to anyway? Why aren’t the rank and file privy to all the rules of the religion that they belong to? Why keep those rules secret?

Maybe it is so that when we do something against “their secret rules” they can kick us out without us even knowing what the rules were in the first place?

Why keep those rules secret? It doesn’t seem “Christian” to me. What about your feelings on the subject?

Silas, I think you are misinformed about a great many things. Every article the Org releases screams do not communicate with disfellowshipped individuals even if they are family members not living at home unless it is for necessary business. You know you’re not just blogging here but communicating intentionally with disfellowshipped JWs. And you’re not stumbling on them in field service in which case your point would be true, you are seeking out communications with them which is clearly against WT teaching. And you can be disfellowshipped for it. Ask your elders if you can carry on conversations with DFs on line.

But messenger, Silas gets to talk to me on this site too, and I’m a witness. I may have had a lot of bad experiences which were not of my making, but were the result of incompetent groups of elders, which Silas does not want to know about. And I am aware that Watchtower was an NGO associated with the UN, which again Silas doesn’t want to know about.

And I know about the Condace Conti and the ‘Amelia’ cases, where, because the elders knew they were pairing known pedophiles with little sisters for field service and, surprise, surprise, the pedophile elder or MS sexually abused the little girl, our organization had to pay out millions of dollars of our donations in compensation. But Silas doesn’t want to know that.

And he is so foolish he probably thinks the Royal Commission was arranged by the devil.

But Silas can talk to me. Silas, the zombie in a stupor, can talk to me, and I can ask him all about these things. Right, Silas? Makes you proud to be a witness, all these things which you are ignoring, doesn’t it?

Great, more abuse by my brothers. Not only the various elders want to kick me in the guts, now my brother Silas is doing the same. Well done, man. That’s what the little sheep need. Flushing down the toilet like we are dung.

Thank goodness Jehovah does not treat me the way my fellow-believers do.

What is an apostate? I believe the witness definition is that it is anyone going against the current teachings of the GB.

In my answers to Silas, I did not go against any teachings of the GB. I merely brought out my bad experiences in this religion, as well as other people’s bad experiences.

Rather than congratulate me for continuing in my service of Jehovah, holding on to my faith and attending meetings, Silas insulted me with the greatest insult you can give to a fellow witness: call them an apostate.

It is this abuse which comes from those unwilling to see reality which I really must protest against, and have been protesting against.

I brought up legitimate concerns about our organization, and rather than face the facts Silas resorts to insults.

I must admit, I probably riled him up a bit, so I am at fault too. But this is a common reaction I have found from the typical witness, including the typical elder.

Is their faith so fragile they cannot admit there are some very disturbing things happening in the organization? Is it wrong for their fellow-worshippers to bring the disturbing things out, in order to balance the topic of discussion?

It is this abuse of their fellow brothers which must stop. However hard it is for them to accept reality, they cannot just insult a brother to cover over embarrassment. It is wrong. It is hurtful. It is what tyrants do to those under them.

Hello Ricardo
When Laban’s actions were hurtful to Jacob his actions led Jacob to leave Laban, and then he went where he performed God’s will. When Joseph’s brothers sold him he ended up where he too was used to accomplish God’s purposes. Perhaps your persecutions are leading you to go to places where you otherwise would not have gone, and work with God in ways you otherwise wouldn’t have.

The Mormons believe that back in Isaiah’s day a Jewish family sailed across the ocean, landed in America where they settled, and where they were visited by Christ and received “new light” that was separate from the light contained in the Bible. That “new light” was later translated by Joseph Smith. The Mormons believe people need to believe this “new light” WHY? Because the Christian church went apostate.

Mohammed received visions of “new light” that he too had written down, and Islam claims it should be understood in addition to the Bible in order to know God’s message.

The Watchtower has taken many scriptures that applied to the ancient Jewish nation and applied those scriptures to themselves claiming too they receive “new light,” and therefore all real Christians must follow them.

All three of these organizations have this in common, they all claim that the Bible scriptures cannot themselves teach people God’s purpose and people must accept more, the book of Mormon, the Koran, the book of Watchtower- “Some may feel like they can interpret the Bible on their own. However, Jesus has appointed the ‘faithful slave’ to be the only channel for dispensing spiritual food. Since 1919…” Nov 2016 study edition Watchtower pg 16 par 9.

Is it true that the “only begotten god that is in the bosom position with the father” (John Chp 1) could not communicate clearly enough to provide the most important message to mankind, one that would be necessary for their salvation? Did Christ lie when he told the apostles that the Holy Spirit that he would send would call back to their minds ALL the things that he had taught to THEM? Did he lie, or did he just forget to tell them about this “new light?” the new light that would be presented as new messages revealed by different gods or different messengers?

“He will defy every god there is, and tear down every other object of adoration and worship. He will go in and sit AS god in the temple of God (see1 Cor 3:16), claiming that he himself is god.” 2Thes:2:4 Living Bible

Messenger
It’s a conscience matter
My conscience is clear
If my comments trigger some of you to reconsider spouting the garbage you all come out with then some good may arise out of this.
Anyway I don’t why you are so concerned about me
I’ll be off this site soon
Worry about yourself

Silas,
As you’ve seen many who comment here have very strong opinions, so debates at times get hairy. Some of us have debated each other before, so your are not the only one that has been put through the ringer. Please forgive us if we’ve offended you.

My concern for you as it is for all people, all lives are important. I feel you’ve got a lot to learn brother about what is required Biblically for salvation, but that’s just my opinion. I still suggest you read the letters of the apostles and deeply consider what they and Christ said is necessary for salvation. Since the scriptures equip for every good work they logically provide all knowledge necessary for salvation. Any requirements added are at best superfluous and at worst condemned by God. That’s the knowledge I believe you lack, that is what really is etched in stone so to speak that is necessary for salvation.

You never answered my question, who was it unlawful for Christ to talk to? One reason I asked is because you appear to feel guilty for carrying on conversations here. From your post above you have been coming here for years. One of your posts states that this site is full of apostates, then latter you lied and stated you can meet more apostates in service. As a JW you well know that the org insists its members not communicate with apostates, disfellowshipped, or disassociated ones. They consider it an act of loyalty to the organization and God. Every Witness knows that it is NOT a matter of conscience but a WT requirement for those who wish to remain JWs.

I never tried to trick you as you applied was a possibility. Best wishes brother. Maybe we’ll meet in the new world.

As regards your United Nations comments
A Bible Teaching is that Jehovah God is about to put it into the heart of UN member governments to give authority to completely get rid of False Religion
This triggers the Great Tribulation according to the Bible.
Isn’t that incredible Jehovah is going to USE the United Nations to destro false religion. He’s going to use the UN to accomplish his purpose.
It won’t be the first time that he’s used human governments to accomplish his purpose. Look in the Bible and read about how he used the Babylonians, the Romans, Assyrians, The ruler Cyrus of the Medo Persian empire was prophesied hundreds of years in advance.
When the Greek leader Alexander the Great turned up at the gates of Jerusalem, the Jews showed him prophecies written about him long before he appeared.
Alexander the Great read about himself in the book of Daniel.
This is what fascinates me.
Not one of any of your snide comments comes anywhere near this stuff.
It’s just one glimpse of the Bible that proves it is Gods Word not mans
And World events shows how near we are to the UN action against false religion
I urge you all to take heed and come back into the fold
And on that note
It’s finally Goodbye to you all
My work is done
Sorry about the insults

“A Bible Teaching is that Jehovah God is about to put it into the heart of UN member ”

I have not seen a word about UN in the Bible. Maybe you should discern between Bible teaching and the WTS teaching. Only WTS identifies that powerful beast with an impotent discussion board called the UN.

Silas, have you ever heard of the shell game? You know you sometimes see it in movies. In it a slick type of con guy has three shells; he puts something inside one, then starts moving them around a table. When he stops he asks an observer to pick where it is.

The WT got you to believe the Bible prohibits Christians from voting, getting involved with the UN, or otherwise getting involved in politics by using the shell game.

First in their publications they define the word ‘world’ two separate ways…both you’ve accepted. The first definition includes all human society outside the theocratic order of WT. Example include work places, public schools, really everywhere not WT or controlled by their adherents. As a second definition they say the world consists of three institutions: political, religious, and commercial.

Then they take those definitions and play the shell game. With the second definition they claim it is ungodly to participate in politics (the world). But why do they not claim the same for participation in business, the commercial part of the world? And to convince you not to participate in politic WT always at least alludes to their second definition, never the first which is everything not WT, because they know they could not get you to stop participating in everything but WT.

Although they do use that first definition to stop you from other things not political, religious, or commercial. For instance, no afterschool sports, no unnecessary association and friendships with those not JWs, no higher education, etc. And even though I agree for some of these they will not discipline members, we both know they constantly present participation as wrong.

What scriptures actually tell Christians not to participate in politics? None!!! You can’t find one Silas. WT documents use the shell game to make you think the scriptures say that, because you must be, “No part of the world.” So Michael I ask you, what really is the world, and how are you to be no part of it? Think about it…think Michael.

Governing Body member Stephen Lett claimed that the organization was in a financially precarious situation – he revealed that there was a shortfall between projected income and expenditure for the forthcoming fiscal period and urged Witnesses to donate “valuable things”.

– Could you please provide the audited financial statements for the WT to verify this shortfall?

– Also, could you please provide the audited financial statements for the WT from it’s beginning in 1879 to date?

“A Bible Teaching is that Jehovah God is about to put it into the heart of UN member governments to give authority to completely get rid of False Religion……. Isn’t that incredible Jehovah is going to USE the United Nations to destroy false religion. He’s going to use the UN to accomplish his purpose…….. World events shows how near we are to the UN action against false religion”.

– Where in the Bible does it explicitly state that the UN is going to destroy false religion?

The last time I checked, the UN is not concerned with whether a religion is true or false. This is a JW obsession, not a UN obsession or prerogative.

The attack on any religion would be contrary to the United Nation’s charter. Freedom of and from religion is enshrined in the UN’s charter as universal, inalienable human rights:

Article 18 of the UN charter:

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”

“When the Greek leader Alexander the Great turned up at the gates of Jerusalem, the Jews showed him prophecies written about him long before he appeared. Alexander the Great read about himself in the book of Daniel.”

– Could you please remind us where this is explicitly stated in the Bible?

Wow you all have been very busy overnight, my story, came in, dragged in to the Borg in 1975, baptized early 80’s, rose through the ranks, MS, Elders for 20 years, married & raised to great kids, still married, after being inside for so long, i have lost count of the lies, the Borg is a business, yes someday they will be exposed, but as everyone keeps saying we are a small drop in the ocean on the world scale, we know that the JW have made up doctrine, it is not the truth, we know that they have/are fleecing the flock, all the money that every KH had in the bank was stolen for the world wide work, i do not trust the Borg but due to being married i am trapped by the shunning rules, again all these things are made up to control the masses, as i said in my earlier comment, we are all getting older & will one day die, oh yes, Is Jehova a god of love , all i see is a cruel god, is Jesus a lyer, well he lied about the generation, where i live the congo is going backwards, 15 year ago we had 2 congo’s and around 160 pubs, now one & about 60, enough said

Whip It, that’s an encouraging report about the congregations. What did you do to cause such a collapse in faith? Just kidding. But on a serious note, why have the numbers in your area dropped off? Is it a mining area and a lot of people have left after the mines closed, or what’s going on? That’s quite a drastic drop in publishers.

Thank you for giving us some data about the current situation of the organization. Don’t forget to note that there is a constant increase each year of emblems partakers at the Memorial although officially the number of 144,000 is basically complete, allowing of course some exceptions. May be some want to meet the requirements to become members of the Governing Body, as all current members belong to these “exceptions” and have become “anointed” after 1935.

Peter – yes, interesting comment. Recently I received a personal letter from Watchtower to a publisher in the US in which Watchtower STRONGLY defended the teaching that the number was sealed in the mid-1930s, and that the only rare exceptions to this would of course be the “replacements” who would fill the positions vacated by unfaithful anointed ones. When I redact this document and get permission to share, it will be an interesting item for all to review

Ricardo, just back on line, no we are not a mining area as such, but yes a slow economy, its half & half, some have left to pursue work, some have just dropped of, some also have been disfellowshiped, generaly though people have stopped going, all the new format is so boring anyway, they really have dumbed it all down.

No i stood down due to inappropriate behavior, i had served for 20 years, i could right a book, as i said on another story here, even seeing elders hide documents from the police to protect the borg, i sometimes look at those 20 years as a mistake but fortunately due to having a great job/career i am able to escape, i just go every now and again, to keep family happy & get left alone, my facial here gets me unwanted attention, after i woke up & watched parents die i really got jacked of at the lies, one day i might be able to break free

So, WhipIt, as an ex-elder I would like to ask your opinion. Do you think there is a culture of bullying by elders in our organization, that is elders bullying the sheep, especially the sheep who may not be doing anything sinful but have got up the elders’ nose because they are brave enough to speak out and complain about things that aren’t right? Sheep who do not act like the rest of the zombie crowd?

I’ve been taking religion classes, because I am just curious as to Why people believe what they believe in each religion. One of the things that came up was, one of the main characteristics that define a cult, is added text. The more text or books or words used outside of the Bible, becomes more and more of man’s words and or rules. The Watchtower and Tract Society, create all these rules and when people violate them they are disfellowshipped or disassociated. However, what happens when the Governing body makes rules which put children at harm, for example, not reporting child molesters to the proper authorities? What happens to the Governing body members when they allow this organization to become a member of “Babylon the Great”? What happens to Governing Body Members when they change their position because the “light is getting brighter”, yet, there were former witnesses disfellowshipped for questioning principles that later were changed? How is it that imperfect men can Judge a organization of loyal and faithful followers, but fall short regularly of being beyond reproach? Why is there so many books outside of the one book inspired by God, the Bible? Not too many other organizations use as many books as this PUBLISHING COMPANY. Why is that?

Most other Christian organizations do not take the position as the sole spokesman for God. As his sole spokesman they feel a need to apply scriptures to themselves…with a constant barrage of interpretations and re-interpretations.

Also, they’ve made money off their literature. For years publishers have paid money out of their own pockets for literature orders, even when the lit was meant to be sold publically. Even then most of it was given to the public freely by publishers. But the society got their money from publishers. The product was inexpensive, far less than most literature, so it’s difficult to guess how much profit was made.

Michele, so true, so many man made rules, the threat of exspoltion sickens me, walking into the KH with heart polpultaions, why, did this happen when Jesus was on earth, probably not, the thing that scares me the most is, what is the truth today, where are we going, all my old beliefs are now in the Bin, just trying now to live, enjoy & gear up for old age & death, sad isnt it

If there is anything at all after death, you can bet your bottom dollar it won’t be Bible related. Too much evidence to the contrary. Even as far back as my earliest conscious thought I didn’t have the in-built need to believe it. Sunday school….I walked out. I’ve got no buttons to push, no strings to pull, no guilt to tap, nothing any organisation or person could use to make me believe what is obviously a fairy tale.

I want proof. Proper proof. Thunder and a hand pointing down from the sky and I’m there. Shouldn’t be too hard for a god who created every damn thing, but oh no no no no…..too simple. We must suffer!

My belief is that if anything exists at all, it will be spiritual and wonderful. No need to be scared. If not…..ah well!, better to have lived and loved than to never have lived and loved at all.

Enjoy the ride, Whip It. Whip it for all it’s worth! And drugs….don’t forget the drugs. And women. Women, speed and Viagra…. a fantastic mix!

Thanks Out, Ricardo i missed your question, yes much bullying, you spend all those years trying to reach out & chase the Carrot as some would say, but you have to conform, i went through the Process, 1st to be an MS, then told you are on your way, Next a very young Elder at 31, only to stand down 9 years later, again after a while i was encouraged to reach out by a very genuine guy, 3 years later i got back as a MS, oh why oh why, in the meantime do the right thing raise kids be a Dad & all that, i actually got into my own business during this time & the only word i can use to describe the attention i got was pure Jealousy, then i decided to grow facial hair, thats when the hate started, i was actually stopped from giving a number 4 talk for it, also ignored when i put my hand up to comment, so i give up & then notice my eyes start to open, i found this site, i researched 607, i read COC, i read many comments here, i now have an outlet where i can talk & keep my sanity, being a servant in the BORG is like being invited to play a sport at the local field only to be told if you don’t do it my way then you can’t play, no love whatsoever, i have seen a DO take a Brother aside & basically tell him he is fired, i had a prominent Elder tell me when i was Platform overseer that i was on my way up!!!, sorry helping wifey look after 2 toddlers.So all those years, all the money wasted doing this, i wish i had this Knowledge way back,

I’m curious and would like your opinion. If you know the answer for sure let me know, but if not please tell me what you think. This BS policy of elders choosing not to call on certain publishers who raise their hands to comment, do you know where that comes from? It seems to be used all over the world, and done for the most menial reasons. A publisher does not have to be going against WT policy, such as growing facial hair, to get shunned that way. I’m very curious to find out who is behind this BS. I wrote the org about it and they investigated my claim. Do you believe they sanction the practice, and their investigation was a hoax? Back in the 90s one elder told me, “that’s what we used to do, but we don’t do it anymore.” Of course they were still at that time when I questioned him (if not I would not have had one of those private backroom conferences with him about it). And I see the practice still continues. Again, who do you think is responsible for that BS?
Thanks brother Whip It.

If anyone else knows where this BS originated, and if its sanctioned by the org. please chime in.

Oh yeah havnt knocked on a door now in 4 years, just do a few of my calls once a month & talk about other stuff, oh if we didnt get out i just lie on the report card to keep them of my back, i thought the holy spirit was to catch people like me, dont go to many groups anymore & guess what i dont wear a tie out in the so called field, another rule

It is clear that the 7 fds self appointed men are the “Disgusting thing” , that causes desolation, as spoken of in Matthew and Daniel…[email protected] (If you can see the connection, lets discuss this!)

@LisaE,
Certainly, the fall in publisher numbers in places like Japan and Europe can be attributed largely to the passing away of so many of our older brothers, and the low birth rates in these countries.

But this is not the actual cause of the decreases in Australia, USA and Canada which have a growing population. In these countries many Witnesses are leaving after waking up; they have been shaken awake by child abuse cases and the dimming of the light in the ‘generation’ understanding. Want to see proof? Go to Youtube and type in ‘Why I am leaving Jehovah’s Witnesses’ and count how many new videos have been put on this year.

There has been an upsurge in people leaving our religion for legitimate reasons, and there have been few migrants responding to our message; few anybody responding, really.

Countries like Mexico are becoming saturated with Witnesses and are starting to slow down.

As the child abuse cases increase in number and as the Governing Body continues to kick own goals with dimming light, expect an overall worldwide decrease.