miss diminutive:I completely missed this case the first time around, but was there actually any evidence against her or was it simply a case of local authorities needing to pin it on someone and she was simply a suspect by virtue of living in the house?

No, they got the guy. He was basically a stranger, broke into the house, raped/killed the girl, left his DNA and fingerprints everywhere.

The first theory was Knox did it, evidence came to light that she didn't (fingerprints and DNA), and they made up stuff to keep her involved. (furry satanic sex orgy..no seriously)

ElPresidente:GungFu: miss diminutive: I completely missed this case the first time around, but was there actually any evidence against her or was it simply a case of local authorities needing to pin it on someone and she was simply a suspect by virtue of living in the house?

Yeah, that's how Americans see it.

Everyone else sees somehow who lied, accused an innocent man and has generally shown to be a bit of a coont.

Thank you, spot on. There's no doubting the Italian justice system is idiotic, but it's in pretty good company there worldwide, and that, or being an American abroad, doesn't automatically make Knox innocent. That young woman's behaviour has been odd in the extreme from immediately after her arrest onwards, and certainly suspicious enough to warrant her arrest and a trial, which of course will now never be fair or just unless accidentally. If the trial was about being a coont, she's be found guilty in a few minutes.

As for those Farkers saying EU extradition rights over US citizens is unfair, that's laughable in the extreme - quite the opposite is true. The US have FAR more power to extradite EU citizens to the US, unfairly so. Try reading up on Gary McKinnon as just one example and the disgraceful amount of time and effort spent trying to extradite him, or Christohper Tappin, who thought he was exporting car batteries to the Netherlands only to find out they were batteries for 25-year-old missiles in Iran (which might not even still exist), was extradited and told he could either plead guilty and get 33 months in prison, or stand trial and perhaps get 30 years. But the EU have almost no power in extraditing US citizens to stand trial.

Some poor sod was brutualy murdered, and I'm not convinced she's innocent just because the legal system is guilty of being stupid.

The common thread here - no citation of a motive, a witness, even placing Knox at the time of the crime scene, a murder weapon, or any other physical evidence. However she was "acting odd" at least, according to british tabloids, hence you're not convinced she's innocent.

One would almost say, that without the biased circumstantial reporting, there would be absolutely nothing to cause one to think she is anything BUT innocent. Indeed, the moment that they put hands on Rudy Guede, who's semen was inside Meridith, who's bloody handprint was at the crime scene and who confessed to being at the crime scene, a reasonable person would have expected the case to be closed.

But no, Amanda Knox did a handstand (or so they say) while being held at the police station for better part of a day. SO VERY VERY SUSPECT.

GungFu:Yeah, that's how Americans see it.Everyone else sees somehow who lied, accused an innocent man and has generally shown to be a bit of a coont.

I'm British and I don't believe your version for a minute, it stinks like sh*te.Anyone who has been picked up by a Mediterranean country's "police" and screamed at for several hours solid knows you're gonna end up saying what they want you to say. I was ready to "admit" to being a 6' German after only 2 hours (felt like much longer) so please spare me that "accused an innocent man" crap. She said what the police wanted, you would have done the same.A charitable view is that you're naive in the ways of the world.

GungFu:miss diminutive: I completely missed this case the first time around, but was there actually any evidence against her or was it simply a case of local authorities needing to pin it on someone and she was simply a suspect by virtue of living in the house?

Yeah, that's how Americans see it.

Everyone else sees somehow who lied, accused an innocent man and has generally shown to be a bit of a coont.

Thanks for illustrating how you know nothing about the case. Any more idiotic opinions you want to chime in with?

FarkinNortherner:The US has a far from unblemished record in locking up and, indeed, executing innocent people, but I suspect most Americans would want a person who faced a murder charge in the US to be extradited from Italy, irrespective of the view of the case held by the Italian populace and/or its media.

The US justice system isn't perfect, granted -but the difference is that it's abundantly obvious that there is no evidence against her.

The possible explanations for the evening in question are as follows:

Theory 1: Some guy with a well-documented criminal history broke into the apartment where they were all staying and committed a horrible crime leaving his DNA and fingerprints all over the place and then skipping town before getting caught a few months later in Germany. Knox and her boyfriend came home the next day after a night of partying and thought something was a bit weird when her roommate wouldn't open the door and there was blood lying around the apartment so they called the police.

Theory 2: Knox and her boyfriend were performing a satanic sex-orgy ritual (no, seriously, that's actually what the prosecution alleges, with absolutely no evidence from their background to support this) and somehow cooperated with the guy who broke in and raped/murdered her roommate (who she was good friends with.) Somehow they were able to do this without leaving a single trace of DNA or fingerprint in the room, and when the random break-in rapist skipped down, they just decided to stick around and call police on themselves.

How. the. Fark. are these two theories being presented beside each other as if they have equal plausibility?

There' such a thing as proven guiltythere's "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" ->this is the point where you can go to jail.There's "probably guilty but we can't prove it" -> at this point you go freeThere's "50/50" -> at this point you go free and people should assume you really are innocentthere's "probably innocent"

....

and then way the hell down the line, there's "Almost definitely innocent, but we could concoct some utterly absurd scenario in which you might be guilty." -> that's where Amanda Knox and Sollecito are, and their lives are being ruined because of it. So yeah, fark the Italian "justice" system.

Unfortunately, While Knox can sit it out comfortably in Seattle, Sollecito is an Italian citizen. Sucks to be him.

She was acquitted on appeal. Unless the prosecutors have some new evidence, I see no reason why she should be tried again. Italy must have some farked up laws if a person, who was acquitted can be retried until the prosecutors get the verdict they want.

If the courts in Italy want to try her in absentia, that's their business, but the US has no obligation to surrender a US citizen, who was, and this is the important part, acquitted on appeal.

I don't know whether she actually took part in the murder or not, so I have no strong opinion one way or the other, but the Italian courts let her go. I see no reason what-so-ever why the US should allow her to be extradited to be tried again.

ElPresidente:There's no doubting the Italian justice system is idiotic, but it's in pretty good company there worldwide, and that, or being an American abroad, doesn't automatically make Knox innocent. That young woman's behaviour has been odd in the extreme from immediately after her arrest onwards, and certainly suspicious enough to warrant her arrest and a trial, which of course will now never be fair or just unless accidentally. If the trial was about being a coont, she's be found guilty in a few minutes.

As for those Farkers saying EU extradition rights over US citizens is unfair, that's laughable in the extreme - quite the opposite is true. The US have FAR more power to extradite EU citizens to the US, unfairly so. Try reading up on Gary McKinnon as just one example and the disgraceful amount of time and effort spent trying to extradite him, or Christohper Tappin, who thought he was exporting car batteries to the Netherlands only to find out they were batteries for 25-year-old missiles in Iran (which might not even still exist), was extradited and told he could either plead guilty and get 33 months in prison, or stand trial and perhaps get 30 years. But the EU have almost no power in extraditing US citizens to stand trial.

Some poor sod was brutualy murdered, and I'm not convinced she's innocent just because the legal system is guilty of being stupid.

Just because we have issues with the US over the misuse of an extradition treaty by over zealous federal authorities and attention whore DAs does not mean that some poor American student and her ex should be sacrificed to soothe your rage.The reputation for incompetance and corruption on the part the Italian authorities, the piss poor lack of explanation of means, motive or opportunity for Knox and Sollecito to assault Kercher plus Guedes habit of beaking into places armed with a knife and the plentiful forensic evidence all point to Guede. It's just patheticly naive to believe anything else.

I live near Cambridge and know well that students can act like arses sometimes.Sometimes life is racist and unfortunately it was the black guy addicted to hard drugs as much as you'd like it to be the middle class white girl.

manwithplanx: I'm curious as to whether the rest of the EU would have to hand her over should she go to any member country.

Yes I think we do, which is something I personally find appaling and frightening; that an incompetant system like Italy can reach out and grab people from here in the UK. (Not that the UK is perfect by any means, but the cynical stupidity of some of the other EU countries beats us by a long shot.)Why did our politicians allow this? I reckon it's actually the same root cause as the Euro crisis, a refusal to admit to the glaring reality that different EU countries have very different standards of competance in policing, judiciary, government and finance. Let's face it, some countries are better at some things than others.

Had Knox and Sollecito been tried in a British court of law I'm sure the judge would have ruled case dismissed within less than a day and they would have walked free without a stain on their characters.

Love the logic here by the DA - "The DNA didn't match, so lets re-try her and see if we have enough to convict without it." You know, it might be a good idea to find out who's DNA does match what they found, you know, because they might be the real killer.

Msphere:I have no idea if she's guilty or not, and I grant that the Italians have botched the job.

But it is irritating in the extreme when you have all these bloviating, white-knight Farkers who are so smug and sure that she's innocent that they taunt anyone who questions them with "No one ever gives any evidence. They got nothin'!" And they do this over and over again. Then someone posts a list of the evidence that the prosecution considered significant, and those white knights just farking disappear.

Bungles:The common view was "corrupt mess of a system" that was pushed into collapse by a massive US media interest, but that at the core of the case, Knox was not innocent (not premeditated, but some sort of manslaughter "everything went wrong" style narrative).

The UK pushed the media angle far more than the US. The US covered it, but it was never a central story.

GungFu:Oh Hai, Yanks! My name is Patrick Lumumba.Your Innocent Pretty White American Girl Abroad, Amanda Knox, accused me of killing Meredith Kircher.I spent two weeks in jail because of her baseless accusation.As I said before, Knox is a coont.

As I said before you're naive if you think you wouldn't have said the same thing in her position. The police wanted her to say something and they get what they want if they have you. That goes, double, triple in a country like Italy.Would you have lasted as long as her before cracking? Maybe you would have used your extensive interrogation training to resist, eh? Or busted free using your SAS combat skills and tracked down the real killer with mad detective skills then proven your case in court as the credits rolled?Or maybe you'd have been like the rest of us ordinary mortals, crying an interrogation room in confusion as thuggish peasants in suits scream spittle in your face from six inches away for a day solid?

Bungles:I was on a trip in the US at the height of the case.... the USA had coverage that is radically different from how the rest of the world perceived it.

Be aware that if you're in the US, you've been presented this case through an incredibly strong prism of "innocent American girl abroad", with a massive PR campaign focused on a "corrupt system".. Check out the coverage in essentially neutral countries on this, like Australia or Germany. It is not positive of Knox.

I live in Australia, it's not negative towards Knox. If anything, the take away is - corrupt and incompetant prosecutor, girl is probably innocent.

I was on a trip in the US at the height of the case.... the USA had coverage that is radically different from how the rest of the world perceived it.

Be aware that if you're in the US, you've been presented this case through an incredibly strong prism of "innocent American girl abroad", with a massive PR campaign focused on a "corrupt system".. Check out the coverage in essentially neutral countries on this, like Australia or Germany. It is not positive of Knox.

Wicked Chinchilla:pedobearapproved: miss diminutive: I completely missed this case the first time around, but was there actually any evidence against her or was it simply a case of local authorities needing to pin it on someone and she was simply a suspect by virtue of living in the house?

No, they got the guy. He was basically a stranger, broke into the house, raped/killed the girl, left his DNA and fingerprints everywhere.

The first theory was Knox did it, evidence came to light that she didn't (fingerprints and DNA), and they made up stuff to keep her involved. (furry satanic sex orgy..no seriously)

Out of curiosity: was the first theory that Knox did it based on anything aside from: "Gee, they lived together, she probably killer her then right? I mean, roommates kill eachother all the time, it seems perfectly reasonable"?

I get that primary suspects are often those closest, Husbands/wives, girlfriends/boyfriends, etc. But generally you don't go to actual prosecution without SOME kind of evidence. Just because murders are "often" perpetrated by those close to the victim doesn't mean you just prosecute every dick or jane who fits the profile...

It seems like pride. While they should have been taking a close look at Knox at the start of the case, the second they have DNA from someone on, and inside the dead girl, and well as bloody handprints and that guy tells them some random Italian guy did it (not Knox and her boyfriend), you might need to drop those charges. Meanwhile the murderer is going to get out in 2016 because he said he was sorry.

--I have asked several British people POINT BLANK to explain to me why they're so convinced that Amanda Knox is guilty, and NOT ONE has ever answered me.

It's insane.

Media propaganda. The tabloids in the UK flogged the fark out of this story for months. For a while there I was using it as a litmus test to judge individuals critical thinking abilities. Sadly - most people are quite happy to be led by the nose, a fact that probably shouldn't surprise anyone.

Italy is a rather shiatty country. I really don't know why the Euro hasn't given them the boot. Besides the whole money issue. The country is corrupt and last I checked couldn't even handle basic services like trash in the southern part of the country. Their "courts" are a farking joke. Didn't they get a tad pissy when an author pointed out that a string of serial killings wasn't Satan Worshippers? They ended up tossing him in jail because he more of less stepped on the Prosecutor and his ideas. Also the same country that put scientists in jail for failing to predict an earthquake down to the day? Yes, they actually convicted some scientists over a damn earth quake. If you can't/don't want to understand modern science then I am one of those that thinks you have no right to any of it's benefits.You aren't Saudi Arabia and you aren't in the farking middle ages anymore Italy!

I don't care if the chick did it. Fact is Italy has a farked up legal system. Duh, considering the whole mafia thing, but not a place to get caught up in and no excuse in this modern era. I really hope the US doesn't extradite her if they push forward. The more I hear about Italy from fellow travelers and news the less I want to travel there.

/I know the US legal system can be a joke, but nothing compared to Italy.//After the whole earthquake thing I just can't take them seriously. I think the Euro does need to have standards as far as courts go, but that would require real government power and we can't have that.///The country doesn't have a great historical record of dealing with critical thinking skills it would seem.

miss diminutive:I completely missed this case the first time around, but was there actually any evidence against her or was it simply a case of local authorities needing to pin it on someone and she was simply a suspect by virtue of living in the house?

Yeah, that's how Americans see it.

Everyone else sees somehow who lied, accused an innocent man and has generally shown to be a bit of a coont.

Bungles:I'm not saying blindly trust the Italian system, all I'm saying is that the demonisation of it here is ridiculous, that she was never acquitted in the US sense, and that the view from much of the world is not as homogeneous as it seems to be in the US.

You keep saying this, but the problem is, you're wrong. In the US you only get one shot. They got their shot. In our book its over. that's what you arent getting. The reason you only get one shot is the strain it places on the individual and the incredible resources the prosecution has to make its case. It's a fair system. Putting an individual through years of court wrangling to be essentially at the mercy of forces beyond his control is cruel and unusual.

steverockson:Don't take my word for it, here's what the appeals judges stated in their opinion:The association between Sollecito, Knox, and Guede was "not corroborated by any evidence" and "far from probable".Without a connection between Knox, Sollecito and Guede the case completely falls apart.That's enough to prove to me that they're innocent and that Guede acted alone.

Isn't it interesting that Guede (who left his DNA among a bunch of other condemning evidence that he murdered this girl) has received compassion from the Italian media and actually had his sentence reduced by 14 years and could be out soon, while the other 2 (who aren't placed at the scene by even a scrap of evidence) are almost universally hated and condemned by most of Europe. Hmm, no - it couldn't have ANYTHING to do with Knox's citizenship ... it's totally just Americans that have it skewed, right.

sudo give me more cowbell:FarkinNortherner: The US has a far from unblemished record in locking up and, indeed, executing innocent people, but I suspect most Americans would want a person who faced a murder charge in the US to be extradited from Italy, irrespective of the view of the case held by the Italian populace and/or its media.

The US justice system isn't perfect, granted -but the difference is that it's abundantly obvious that there is no evidence against her.

The possible explanations for the evening in question are as follows:

Theory 1: Some guy with a well-documented criminal history broke into the apartment where they were all staying and committed a horrible crime leaving his DNA and fingerprints all over the place and then skipping town before getting caught a few months later in Germany. Knox and her boyfriend came home the next day after a night of partying and thought something was a bit weird when her roommate wouldn't open the door and there was blood lying around the apartment so they called the police.

Theory 2: Knox and her boyfriend were performing a satanic sex-orgy ritual (no, seriously, that's actually what the prosecution alleges, with absolutely no evidence from their background to support this) and somehow cooperated with the guy who broke in and raped/murdered her roommate (who she was good friends with.) Somehow they were able to do this without leaving a single trace of DNA or fingerprint in the room, and when the random break-in rapist skipped down, they just decided to stick around and call police on themselves.

How. the. Fark. are these two theories being presented beside each other as if they have equal plausibility?

There' such a thing as proven guiltythere's "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" ->this is the point where you can go to jail.There's "probably guilty but we can't prove it" -> at this point you go freeThere's "50/50" -> at this point you go free and people should assume you really are innocentthere's "probably innocent"

.... ...

Strange how none of the America bashing dickbags, defending backward draconian legal systems in Europe wanted to respond to this.

So. Taking the Knox, Sollecito and Kercher case as the good example it is what might we learn from it on a larger scale?

I believe this case is emblematic of the self serving, cynical, lazy ignorance of many conspiracy theorists that is rife in modern society but seems to hold more ground than it should in Italy. Their thinking is so often: "Life is complicated, the Yankees are naive and do not understand that behind everything is a deep dark conspiracy. Involving sex. Therefore it was not a case of a local murdering Kercher. Because that makes us uncomfortable."Yes life is sometimes so, but when it comes to the actions of murderers and rapists the simplest answer is usually true, albeit often hidden under a veil of illogic and bullshiat. The naivity and ignorance is, as is so often the case, on the side of the conspiracists. Fundamentally this is ineducated people trying to appear educated.

The fundamental flaw in the EU is that it pretends that a country where this kind of thinking has infected even people holding such an eminent position as a local prosecutor is on the same level as a well run sober north European country. Not just in legal matters but many others the EU is not sustainable in the long term until Europe's diversity is admitted to and factored in.

We have not done much better here in the UK as many have swallowed the bullshiat line fed by the tabloid press about this, and many other things. Why?Until this case I had honestly supposed that many tabloiud hacks wer cynically spouting lies. However seeing that Kercher's father, a tabloid reporter himself, actually believed the pathetic rubbish that the Italians came up with which allowed the man who murdered and raped his daughter to get off lightly, it looks like some of them actually believe this crap.The bottom line is that I am less concerned about the new press control law coming out her in the UK because I think that much of "our" media is so irresponsible, ignorant and gullible that it should not be trusted whith so much power.

Overall the Kercher case is a particularly clear case of the power of the mob.

Msphere:I have no idea if she's guilty or not, and I grant that the Italians have botched the job.

But it is irritating in the extreme when you have all these bloviating, white-knight Farkers who are so smug and sure that she's innocent that they taunt anyone who questions them with "No one ever gives any evidence. They got nothin'!" And they do this over and over again. Then someone posts a list of the evidence that the prosecution considered significant, and those white knights just farking disappear.

doglover:of a legal system. The truth doesn't matter, speed doesn't matter, common sense doesn't matter: as long as the lawyers have money to burn the battle isn't over.

This is less of a problem with the legal system generally as with prosecutors whose career prospects depend on putting people in jail, not justice, and who also can't ever admit to convicting (or usually even prosecuting) an innocent person. Even for the ones who want to be honest, cognitive dissonance sets in and you end up with arguments that DNA testing of old convictions shouldn't be allowed because it might call into question old convictions.

FarkinNortherner:I'm deeply puzzled why there's not only a belief the US won't extradite her but that this is a good thing.

The US has a far from unblemished record in locking up and, indeed, executing innocent people, but I suspect most Americans would want a person who faced a murder charge in the US to be extradited from Italy, irrespective of the view of the case held by the Italian populace and/or its media.

I doubt you'd see much agitation for the extradition of an Italian citizen already tried and acquitted of murder, who then subsequently returned to Italy.

GungFu:I'm under custody for a potential murder, and I say, it wasn't me, it was this other guy (who's innocent) and basically, it's not my fault for accusing him and if he gets detained in prison for two weeks while the cops investigate whether I was telling teh truth or not.

Fark me, you are retarded. No wonder people think she's entirely innocent. Retard thinking does that, I suppose.

I'm retarded for expecting investigators to determine the veracity of an accusation, especially one given while under duress, more rapidly and intelligently than taking two farking weeks. Good to know.

GungFu:ace in your face: GungFu: fastfxr: Last time I checked, acting strange and being a retard wasn't a crime, nor did it make you guilty of a crime. YOU try being convicted of murder and facing life at her age.

So its her fault that merely suggesting someone who she thought might have killed her was jailed? Sounds like another gigantic failure in behalf of the Italian legal system.

Merely Suggesting someone? Brilliant!She accused him of being the killer, dummy!

So you think if I call up the police and tell them "omg Gung Fu comitted murder", when infact i may think you did it, its my fault that the police throw you in jail fir 2 weeks? No. Its the police fault that he was held in jail. He should have been merely called in for questioning but the corrupt Italian system let him languish in jail.

GungFu:She accused him of being the killer, dummy!You are the dummy here if you don't take into account the f*ck knows how many hours she'd been under interrogation without a lawyer. You're a fool if you believe the crap the tabloids peddle.

Wow. I didn't know that foreign students had authority to arrest people. If the accusation was baseless as you said, then what farking investigator believed it. That's the investigator's fault, not hers. The investigator is the coont, as shown by farking up the entire investigation.

Wow, what a retarded judicial system you have in your head.

I'm under custody for a potential murder, and I say, it wasn't me, it was this other guy (who's innocent) and basically, it's not my fault for accusing him and if he gets detained in prison for two weeks while the cops investigate whether I was telling teh truth or not.

Fark me, you are retarded. No wonder people think she's entirely innocent. Retard thinking does that, I suppose.

So you don't care that she was interrogated for hours/days with no lawyer present and coerced to give a statement?

Wow. I didn't know that foreign students had authority to arrest people. If the accusation was baseless as you said, then what farking investigator believed it. That's the investigator's fault, not hers. The investigator is the coont, as shown by farking up the entire investigation.

Look at Zimmerman. Mainstream media even alters police phone calls to make him look guilty. Our President came out and sided with Traypack. No evidence anywhere to support that, does not stop liberals. Foreign countries are even worse. The coverage of Traypack is absolutely terrible.

doubled99:Fark this murdering biatch. Maybe they can figure a way to retry Casey Anthony while they're at it.Can't believe all the dupes here.

Please expound on what evidence there is that Ms. Knox killed anyone.

Yeah. Like this is the forum for presenting evidence. I'll wait until you've read all the court transcripts and testimony.

What? We know the basic facts of the case. They had a trial. Please let us know which facts point to Ms. Knox being the perpetrator. (Keep in mind that a guy's semen was found in the victim and his bloody handprint was found at the scene).

They had a trial and everything? Oh. well I guess that settles that, then.Wonder why people are still upset about the Anthony or Simpson trials

Bungles:I was on a trip in the US at the height of the case.... the USA had coverage that is radically different from how the rest of the world perceived it.

Be aware that if you're in the US, you've been presented this case through an incredibly strong prism of "innocent American girl abroad", with a massive PR campaign focused on a "corrupt system".. Check out the coverage in essentially neutral countries on this, like Australia or Germany. It is not positive of Knox.

This suggests that you believe that coverage anywhere else is less biased and there is no geopolitical interest in 'sticking it to those asshole Americans'.

I have experienced the same as some in this thread. Europeans are so sure that she is guilty but none of them can point to any evidence or established fact. I see the public getting caught up in media frenzy is not exclusive to the American public.

doubled99:Fark this murdering biatch. Maybe they can figure a way to retry Casey Anthony while they're at it.Can't believe all the dupes here.

Please expound on what evidence there is that Ms. Knox killed anyone.

Yeah. Like this is the forum for presenting evidence. I'll wait until you've read all the court transcripts and testimony.

What? We know the basic facts of the case. They had a trial. Please let us know which facts point to Ms. Knox being the perpetrator. (Keep in mind that a guy's semen was found in the victim and his bloody handprint was found at the scene).

miss diminutive:I completely missed this case the first time around, but was there actually any evidence against her or was it simply a case of local authorities needing to pin it on someone and she was simply a suspect by virtue of living in the house?

According to the article they don't have a weapon, don't have a motive and haven't been able to come up with a scenario that makes sense and fits the evidence(which has been mishandled). It sounds suspiciously like the local authorities have nothing and were trying to pin the whole thing on the foreign girl.

Its such a bizarre case. Anyone who paid close attention to Amanda's statements at the start of all this felt fairly certain that she was guilty. She just said some retardedly sketchy things when the investigation began... my "gift" has always been to read people and understand their intentions and motives based on their speech patterns and facial expressions, and every time I saw her that was the overwhelming feeling I got.

With that said... the prosecutor really went off the farking deep end, and went wild with strange stories of satanic sex rituals etc, and really just over stepped himself. It was basically the euro version of the Casey Anthony trial... they probably had a decent case, if they had just stuck to the damn facts and leveled appropriate charges, but the prosecutors got high on the media frenzy and went full retard with speculation.

Bungles:TwistedFark: Bungles: I was on a trip in the US at the height of the case.... the USA had coverage that is radically different from how the rest of the world perceived it.

Be aware that if you're in the US, you've been presented this case through an incredibly strong prism of "innocent American girl abroad", with a massive PR campaign focused on a "corrupt system".. Check out the coverage in essentially neutral countries on this, like Australia or Germany. It is not positive of Knox.

I live in Australia, it's not negative towards Knox. If anything, the take away is - corrupt and incompetant prosecutor, girl is probably innocent.

That's just not true, I was in Melbourne for a huge chunk of this trial. The common view was "corrupt mess of a system" that was pushed into collapse by a massive US media interest, but that at the core of the case, Knox was not innocent (not premeditated, but some sort of manslaughter "everything went wrong" style narrative).

It's not entirely different from certain current views of the Pistorius case..

I haven't heard anybody here claim Pistorius is innocent. I think you're just making things up now.

Arthur Jumbles:GungFu: miss diminutive: I completely missed this case the first time around, but was there actually any evidence against her or was it simply a case of local authorities needing to pin it on someone and she was simply a suspect by virtue of living in the house?

Yeah, that's how Americans see it.

Everyone else sees somehow who lied, accused an innocent man and has generally shown to be a bit of a coont.

[i.telegraph.co.uk image 460x288]

Isn't this man, Rudy Guede, already in jail for raping and murdering Kercher?

Yes, and he's going to be out in a couple of years because the corrupt and incompetant prosecution gave him a sweetheart deal so that they could pursue their satanic sex orgy theory with the other two.

It's fascinating of the Italian's proclivity for believing in a "brutal sex game gone wrong". I'd laugh but we Americans believe that in every shadow lurks a child molester. Interesting cultural comparison.

manwithplanx:doglover: Typical of a legal system. The truth doesn't matter, speed doesn't matter, common sense doesn't matter: as long as the lawyers have money to burn the battle isn't over. Ws are Ls waiting to happen and Ls are Ws ready to bloom and a decision is only final if you're unlucky enough to land in front a supreme court.

Sigh.

Anyway, I hope she bugs out to a country where Italy can't extradite her from and ends this case once and for all. It's too late for Justice.

TFA said Italian Law cannot compel her to return to Italy from the United States, but she may be tried in absentia and would presumably be arrested upon return to Italy should she be found guilty. I'm curious as to whether the rest of the EU would have to hand her over should she go to any member country.

Even if Itally said, TOTALLY INNOCENT I don't think I would ever set foot in Italy again were I her.

Typical of a legal system. The truth doesn't matter, speed doesn't matter, common sense doesn't matter: as long as the lawyers have money to burn the battle isn't over. Ws are Ls waiting to happen and Ls are Ws ready to bloom and a decision is only final if you're unlucky enough to land in front a supreme court.

Sigh.

Anyway, I hope she bugs out to a country where Italy can't extradite her from and ends this case once and for all. It's too late for Justice.

You keep saying stuff like this as if it actually has any bearing AT ALL on whether or not you're actually correct.

It doesn't.

It has a massive bearing on the general given in the US that this is some sort of injustice. Most people are delighted at the checks and balances here.

Again, not American. Zero loyalty to the United States. Still pretty sure that this is a huge injustice. The fact that you take pleasure in subjecting an obviously innocent person to this kind of persecution and media tar/feathering makes you a huge tool no matter what country you come from.

But it is a reason for the US to block extradition. Americans are guaranteed certain rights, and the right against double jeopardy is HUGE. It doesn't matter that Italy is a backassed shiathole, handing her over to the Italians would be a grievous crime against her as far as we are concerned. Not unlike the Italians not handing someone over who is facing the death penalty. As far as the US is concerned, she was acquitted. None of this "pending" crap counts.

Bungles continues to be allergic to any and all discussion of the actual facts of the case. The only things he seems able to discuss are the procedural details of the Italian legal system and why they should be considered trustworthy, and the media coverage of the case in Europe and why that should be considered superior to the "biased" coverage in the US. Except even there, he still doesn't want to talk about what the "biased" US press won't tell us.

I would like to remind you, sir, that you are posting on Fark, which is a no representative sample of Internet commenters, and the US posters are not a representative sample of Americans. Though individual variations exist, we tend to have a jaundiced view of the ability and willingness of police and courts in general to arrive at justice - and more importantly, we tend to have a jaundiced view of the news and entertainment media. Indeed, the belief that the press tends to favor sensationalism over facts is the very idea on which this site was founded.

Given that, please understand that expecting us to blindly trust the Italian justice system isn't a winning argument around here, and expecting us to blindly trust the EU media and the "court of public opinion" is even less so. If you want to actually persuade anyone here, you should be prepared to provide specific facts that call Amanda Knox's innocence into question - and be prepared to face a dismissive attitude if the facts you present cover only her demeanor, her personal life, or her coerced testimony while imprisoned.

Of course, maybe you just want to see your name in purple bold. That's part of Fark too.

It is extremely relevent. The burden of evidence that I have just satisfied to put you on trial for child-molestation is about the same as what's currently being used by the insane prosecutor in perugia.

Bungles:How kind. All I've done is explain how the Italian tiered court review system worked (what a shiat of me, putting things in context for people!) and explained that the US view on this is the one which is out of kilter with public opinion (again what an ass I am! Placing this in an international context, given it's an international case)

While you've gotten something of a bad rap on the notion of the court system, your attempts to give value judgments on the court of public opinion have been pretty weak. You've attempted to do far more than simply state that the US view is out of kilter, you've actively attempted to make that mean that US opinion is more biased and wrong. Please don't waste time denying it. Trouble is, that doesn't really seem to be the case.

You asked what bias reporting in other countries would have, as if this would be a nationalist issue alone and that countries with no dog in the game (Germany) could be trusted to be impartial, but that's a remarkably naive idea to even attempt to foster in your head, because it ignores the MOST important bias ANY reporter is going to have: newsworthiness and marketability. So tell me which makes the better story to sell newspapers:

I'm not trolling. I think she is most likely innocent. You are saying there is no evidence - there was evidence prior to the trial, but when examined it doesn't hold up. It looks like most of it was fabricated by zealous or incompetent authorities.

Also the opinion piece that everyone is linking to seems to be at odds with other sources. The opinion piece states that Rudy Guede was not known to Knox, but other sources state that she served him at work, and they all smoked up together in the basement of the apartment a couple of weeks before the murder.

eggrolls:Bungles: R.A.Danny: Bungles: Why are you afraid of having a proper trial?

There was one. As far as any civilized nation is concerned, there's no asterisk after an acquittal. It's over. Italy can go fark itself. I don't even care if she IS guilty, it's better to let a hundred guilty go than to lock up an innocent person.

The fact that there wasn't is the entire point of this ruling.

We will find out the details very soon, I imagine.

Funny, no one in Italy took the position that the trial was improper when Know was convicted. It was only when the verdict was overturned that certain people started demanding a do-over.

Right, so if they lose this one is going to be "Ok guys best 3 out of 5! Go!".?The crazy thing is THEY CAUGHT THE PERPETRATOR ALREADY. The theory that this was a Blood Satan Sex Orgy gone wrong is completely idiotic, and no evidence exists to back up the lunatic prosecutors claim.

Bungles:R.A.Danny: Bungles: Why are you afraid of having a proper trial?

There was one. As far as any civilized nation is concerned, there's no asterisk after an acquittal. It's over. Italy can go fark itself. I don't even care if she IS guilty, it's better to let a hundred guilty go than to lock up an innocent person.

The fact that there wasn't is the entire point of this ruling.

We will find out the details very soon, I imagine.

I agree that if there isn't a proper trial, there should be the possibility for appeal. I think that there should be more pressure on the state to prove its case the first time, but I can understand a nation that allows its own prosecutors to appeal an acquittal, so from a procedural point of view, I'm ok with the fact that a case can be appealed in this way.

But this still doesn't address the underlying reality that there is no farking evidence against the accused, and that any rational human being who's spent more than 10 minutes looking at the facts would easily conclude that she obviously had nothing to do with this crime.

I don't really give a shiat about proceduralistic/legalistic bullshiat, I care about two innocent people having their lives destroyed over nothing. Anyone who thinks they're guilty has been reading sensationalized tabloid bullshiat and is completely ignorant of the facts in the case, or is some combination of stupid and crazy. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

Do you agree that the basic facts of the case should matter, even a little?

Bungles:R.A.Danny: Bungles: Why are you afraid of having a proper trial?

There was one. As far as any civilized nation is concerned, there's no asterisk after an acquittal. It's over. Italy can go fark itself. I don't even care if she IS guilty, it's better to let a hundred guilty go than to lock up an innocent person.

The fact that there wasn't is the entire point of this ruling.

We will find out the details very soon, I imagine.

Funny, no one in Italy took the position that the trial was improper when Know was convicted. It was only when the verdict was overturned that certain people started demanding a do-over.

A proper trial would be predicated on the assumption that there's even enough evidence to bring this bullshiat case to trial in the first place. And there isn't.

Your usage of "proper trial" would be analogous to me dragging you into court for a "proper trial" on charges of Child molestation, and putting your name all over the papers in the process. I have absolutely no shred of evidence to support the claim that you are a child-molester, but don't you think we should have a proper trial (with full media scrutiny) before we jump to any conclusions about whether you are, or are not, a child-molester?

Bungles:pedobearapproved: Are you suggesting that Kercher's parents are insane, and are happy with today's decision because they've had some sort of psychotic break and can't fathom a world where Knox wasn't involved?

Yes, that seems the long and short of it, based on finding this:

Are you saying it's outrageous that two people could have hooked up with a stranger, returned home, tried to expand that threesome to a foursome, and that situation couldn't have turned horrific?

to be a reasonable scenario. This sounds like something that would make a grieving tabloid journalist salivate in a Pavlovian style. To the sane amongst us, it sounds like something made up by people who watched way too much daytime European television.

Bungles:So why do you think that the average opinion in say Germany - a country with no dog in this fight whatsoever and a very conservative press - is of Knox's involvement? I was there for a month at the height of the circus, and while it was only page 4 news, it was greatly discussed, with an overwhelming opinion that the prosecution were incompetent and that she was readily lying.

I'm Canadian, currently living in Germany long enough to call myself German. I have no loyalty whatsoever to the U.S. government, and think that the world-wide hostility directed towards the US government over Iraq was completely justified, and that George W. Bosh was a colossal POS.

That doesn't change the fact that there is absolutely no evidence to support accusations against Knox or Sollecito; it doesn't change the fact that the overwhelmingly more plausible explanation for everything is one in which both of them are totally innocent of any involvement, and it doesn't make Knox responsible for the actions of her government's foreign policy -something which I think a lot of people in Europe are forgetting.

Bungles:eggrolls: Bungles: Falin: Bungles: Falin: How anyone who has paid any real amount of attention to this case can side with anyone besides Knox is completely beyond me. I guess the biases in place here are very complex.

(snippage)

So why do you think that the average opinion in say Germany - a country with no dog in this fight whatsoever and a very conservative press - is of Knox's involvement? I was there for a month at the height of the circus, and while it was only page 4 news, it was greatly discussed, with an overwhelming opinion that the prosecution were incompetent and that she was readily lying.Why, uniquely, does the US public believe on mass of her innocence? it's two reasons: nationalism - as occurs in any country when one of their own is charge abroad - and the lens of the US press.

If you've spent any time in Europe as you say you have, you've seen the schadenfreude demonstrated with an almost 'Mean Girls' level of cruelty towards stupid, loud overbearing Americans from almost every quarter. Even from the countries like us. Now add a sensationalist culture of journalistic free for all, the kind that printed excerpts from Hitler's diaries without validating them first, killed Princess Di for a picture and hacked the phones of dead children. Stir in a little procedural zealotry on behalf of a poorly run Italian police force, and you've got a perfect storm of bullshiat and utter indifference to the truth.

Well, I'm European, so yes, I've spent a lot of time in Europe.

What you're saying is just simply untrue. Yes, lots of people dislike loud, overbearing Americans, including many Americans. That doesn't mean that people want them framed for murder.

I don't think they really care if someone is innocent or not, as long as the media circus never ends.

steverockson:Exactly. It's not that America is biased TOWARDS Americans, it's that Europe is biased AGAINST Americans.

Exactly, if she had done it she shouldn't see another sunrise that isn't framed by bars, but she didn't. The dude that did... well he raped and murdered an innocent girl and he might be able to get out as early as 2016. Why? He said he was sorry. And this guy beyond a shadow of a doubt raped and killed that woman.

Bungles:So why do you think that the average opinion in say Germany - a country with no dog in this fight whatsoever and a very conservative press - is of Knox's involvement? I was there for a month at the height of the circus, and while it was only page 4 news, it was greatly discussed, with an overwhelming opinion that the prosecution were incompetent and that she was readily lying.

I haven't the faintest idea, as I can't read German. Why don't you tell us why the Germans think she was involved?

In fact, why won't you tell us anything about why the rest of the EU think she's guilty of something, instead of just repeatedly assuring us that they do (and burying the thread in minutiae as to why the present ruling doesn't constitute double jeopardy)?

eggrolls:Bungles: Falin: Bungles: Falin: How anyone who has paid any real amount of attention to this case can side with anyone besides Knox is completely beyond me. I guess the biases in place here are very complex.

(snippage)

So why do you think that the average opinion in say Germany - a country with no dog in this fight whatsoever and a very conservative press - is of Knox's involvement? I was there for a month at the height of the circus, and while it was only page 4 news, it was greatly discussed, with an overwhelming opinion that the prosecution were incompetent and that she was readily lying.Why, uniquely, does the US public believe on mass of her innocence? it's two reasons: nationalism - as occurs in any country when one of their own is charge abroad - and the lens of the US press.

If you've spent any time in Europe as you say you have, you've seen the schadenfreude demonstrated with an almost 'Mean Girls' level of cruelty towards stupid, loud overbearing Americans from almost every quarter. Even from the countries like us. Now add a sensationalist culture of journalistic free for all, the kind that printed excerpts from Hitler's diaries without validating them first, killed Princess Di for a picture and hacked the phones of dead children. Stir in a little procedural zealotry on behalf of a poorly run Italian police force, and you've got a perfect storm of bullshiat and utter indifference to the truth.

Exactly. It's not that America is biased TOWARDS Americans, it's that Europe is biased AGAINST Americans.

Bungles:Falin: Bungles: Falin: How anyone who has paid any real amount of attention to this case can side with anyone besides Knox is completely beyond me. I guess the biases in place here are very complex.

(snippage)

So why do you think that the average opinion in say Germany - a country with no dog in this fight whatsoever and a very conservative press - is of Knox's involvement? I was there for a month at the height of the circus, and while it was only page 4 news, it was greatly discussed, with an overwhelming opinion that the prosecution were incompetent and that she was readily lying.Why, uniquely, does the US public believe on mass of her innocence? it's two reasons: nationalism - as occurs in any country when one of their own is charge abroad - and the lens of the US press.

If you've spent any time in Europe as you say you have, you've seen the schadenfreude demonstrated with an almost 'Mean Girls' level of cruelty towards stupid, loud overbearing Americans from almost every quarter. Even from the countries like us. Now add a sensationalist culture of journalistic free for all, the kind that printed excerpts from Hitler's diaries without validating them first, killed Princess Di for a picture and hacked the phones of dead children. Stir in a little procedural zealotry on behalf of a poorly run Italian police force, and you've got a perfect storm of bullshiat and utter indifference to the truth.

Bungles:Falin: How anyone who has paid any real amount of attention to this case can side with anyone besides Knox is completely beyond me. I guess the biases in place here are very complex.

That's a very US-centric view, and it's understandable, given the nature of the coverage there, especially the weight that certain books were given.

Most people in Europe don't know precisely what happened, because the prosecution was so botched, but not many think Knox is innocent. There are gaping holes in the story, and hopefully this retrial will address them.

Frankly, the people I trust most in this are the Kerchers, who have remained superhumanly calm throughout the entire procedure, and they have welcomed this turn of events.

No, it's not. It's a very FACT-centric view.

Look, the US isn't North Korea. We have unfettered access to information from the rest of the world here. The facts of the case are just as available to people in the US as they are to people anywhere else in the world. Knowing the facts of the case would cause any UNBIASED person to be shocked at the fact that the first trial didn't end in acquittal, and would think that the fact that she spent any time in prison at all as a gross miscarriage of justice. In the United States, this case wouldn't have even made trial in the first place, because there is NO REAL EVIDENCE that Knox was involved with the murder at all. The justice system in Italy is different. I get that. So it goes to trial, even without evidence. Ok. But even given that, the fact that she was convicted and spent time in prison is beyond the pale, and a "different" system of justice simply doesn't account for that unless "different" means "corrupt and unfair".

Did she behave weirdly? Maybe. Did she do some things that were unwise? Probably. Are either of those things crimes in Italy? I don't think so. Maybe I'm wrong. But, as someone who simply doesn't care who Knox is, where she's from, and where the crimes and trial took place, this whole thing is a sick joke.

Thankfully, she's out of reach of the corruption and craziness over there if this farce continues. Sure, maybe she might not be able to go to Italy or anywhere else in the EU ever again... but after what she's been through, why would she want to? Even if this DOES end in a final acquittal, she'd be wise never to go back anyways, because she'd likely end up in trouble for some other imagined thing as revenge for making people over there look like fools.

Bungles:pedobearapproved: Bungles: Well, the Supreme Court disagrees with you that it's so cut and dry, armchair Poirot.

Which is why there will now be a new phase in the trial.

Except you have no clue why the supreme court said there has to be a re-trial, for all we know it's stupidly procedural. The only thing we do know if they supreme court didn't rule on the guilt or innocence of Knox, however the last court did, and they found her not guilty, where they said the association between Guede, Knox and Sollecito was "not corroborated by any evidence" and "far from probable."

so judge judy, it's not about if she's guilty or not for you, it's about what? never admitting you're wrong? Trying to go through life with a complete lack of common sense?

What we do know is that it was the appeal court's finding of aquittal that was specifically overturned. The judgement may have also overturned the initial trial's findings too, we just don't know that yet.

I find it odd that you don't want to know what actually happened.

We know what happened. A burglar and common criminal broke into Meredith Kercher's apartment and brutally raped and murdered her. Due to prosecutorial misconduct an innocent couple were charged with the murder despite minimal evidence against them.Apparently due to politics the Supreme Court has ordered a new trial and unless the prosecution is sitting on some bombshell they withheld in the previous trial they've got next to nothing on Ms. Knox and her boyfriend.

Are you suggesting that Kercher's parents are insane, and are happy with today's decision because they've had some sort of psychotic break and can't fathom a world where Knox wasn't involved? Or perhaps they, who know more about this case than anyone bar the victim and the perpetrator/s having sat through every minute of testimony, realise that the current version of events doesn't stack up?

Are you saying it's outrageous that two people could have hooked up with a stranger, returned home, tried to expand that threesome to a foursome, and that situation couldn't have turned horrific?

Perhaps they had nothing to do with the murder, but were involved with the proceeding events, and are lying because they realise that doesn't look good and means they have no alibi?

You are right that you don't have a theory because nothing you said makes sense. There is a reason we don't let the family try cases. And while they might feel in their heart with all sincerity that Knox was involved there is ZERO evidence of it, convincing or otherwise.

Why didn't Rudy Guede instantly say "hey, it was the other two people in the house. I was having sex with Kercher and went to the bathroom, those people came in killed her, I discovered her body when I went back to the bedroom and they threatened me, so I got out of town!" Instead he said "it was some random racist Italian dude," that he didn't recognize. Also if it was a three-some going to 4-some gone wrong, why hasn't Guede EVER said that at some point. He admitted he was there during the time of the murder, why wouldn't he have said something that made himself look less guilty...oh because it didn't happen!

The only scenario that matches the evidence is that Guede broke in to steal (which he had been doing around town prior to the murder). This time he got caught when Kercher came home, he raped and murdered her then fled town.

Bungles:steverockson: Bungles: pedobearapproved: Bungles: No, what I'm saying is that proving a connection isn't the crux of the case. They will have been, if she is guilty, in some way connected. But proving the connection isn't the guts of the case: proving her connection to the murder is. The how and why of the Guede connection is interesting and potentially important, but it isn't the holy grail of the case.

So your theory is that Knox and her boyfriend killed her, then Guede broke in later and had sex with the corpse?

Tell us Sherlock if they aren't connected to Guede whose DNA was INSIDE the dead girl, and whose bloody handprint was beside the body, what's the connection?

I don't have "a theory".

Are you suggesting that Kercher's parents are insane, and are happy with today's decision because they've had some sort of psychotic break and can't fathom a world where Knox wasn't involved? Or perhaps they, who know more about this case than anyone bar the victim and the perpetrator/s having sat through every minute of testimony, realise that the current version of events doesn't stack up?

Are you saying it's outrageous that two people could have hooked up with a stranger, returned home, tried to expand that threesome to a foursome, and that situation couldn't have turned horrific?

Perhaps they had nothing to do with the murder, but were involved with the proceeding events, and are lying because they realise that doesn't look good and means they have no alibi?

Yes, completely outrageous and idiotic.

You're saying that no time in the history of Man have people hooked up with dangerous strangers?

The idea that a girl and her boyfriend "hooked up with a dangerous stranger" and took him home and helped him brutally rape and murder her roommate, then went back the next day and called the cops on themselves is ridiculous.

Phoenix_M:eggrolls: Phoenix_M: It's amusing how naive people are in this thread, Yes Amanda Knox will be extradited back to Italy. The DOJ extradites people back to the EU all the time. This case just has a little more press then the others.

Not when they've been exonerated they don't. Plus, she's affluent, educated, cute... and white. That will keep any extradition effort from ever getting off the ground.

She hasn't been exonerated yet and she'll be back in Italy by this time next year. If not she'll spend the rest of her life looking over her shoulder and on the interpol wanted list. She gets pulled over for a traffic ticket in Wenatchee bamm she's back in jail awaiting extradition.

She's out, and she's home in the States. Italy can bloviate all they want, they ain't getting her back.

Bungles:steverockson: Bungles: steverockson: Bungles: steverockson: Bungles: Falin: How anyone who has paid any real amount of attention to this case can side with anyone besides Knox is completely beyond me. I guess the biases in place here are very complex.

That's a very US-centric view, and it's understandable, given the nature of the coverage there, especially the weight that certain books were given.

Most people in Europe don't know precisely what happened, because the prosecution was so botched, but not many think Knox is innocent. There are gaping holes in the story, and hopefully this retrial will address them.

Frankly, the people I trust most in this are the Kerchers, who have remained superhumanly calm throughout the entire procedure, and they have welcomed this turn of events.

No, why would you use that analogy? The two cases are not similar at all.

Trying to make the verdict about something that isn't the actual murder exactly like that.

Look, it's not in dispute that Guede raped and killed Kercher. Since there is no connection between Guede and Knox/Sollecito then they could not have been involved. Unless you're saying they came over to the apartment, caught Guede in the act and said, "Hey, that's pretty neat, can we help?". This is beyond implausible.

No, what I'm saying is that proving a connection isn't the crux of the case. They will have been, if she is guilty, in some way connected. But proving the connection isn't the guts of the case: proving her connection to the murder is. The how and why of the Guede connection is interesting and potentially important, but it isn't the holy grail of the case.

It IS the crux of the case. It's the ENTIRE case. The reason is because we KNOW that Guede raped and killed Kercher. Without a connection to Guede the case completely collapses.

Bungles:furterfan: when you think of how many american travesties of justice have occurred in the same time period that this has been going on........ some get reported and forgotten.... it seems none get as much attention as this case

hmmmm

it wouldnt be anything to do with the fact that she's a pretty young white girl, would it?

Don't you dare! Of course there'd be just as many Farkers here defending her to the death if she was a fat ugly black boy! Of course there would!

If the only motive they could come up with is the fat ugly black kid had a satanic sex orgy without leaving any DNA while the legless attractive white guy shot her through the door. We would.

ethics-gradient:So. Taking the Knox, Sollecito and Kercher case as the good example it is what might we learn from it on a larger scale?

I believe this case is emblematic of the self serving, cynical, lazy ignorance of many conspiracy theorists that is rife in modern society but seems to hold more ground than it should in Italy. Their thinking is so often: "Life is complicated, the Yankees are naive and do not understand that behind everything is a deep dark conspiracy. Involving sex. Therefore it was not a case of a local murdering Kercher. Because that makes us uncomfortable."Yes life is sometimes so, but when it comes to the actions of murderers and rapists the simplest answer is usually true, albeit often hidden under a veil of illogic and bullshiat. The naivity and ignorance is, as is so often the case, on the side of the conspiracists. Fundamentally this is ineducated people trying to appear educated.

The fundamental flaw in the EU is that it pretends that a country where this kind of thinking has infected even people holding such an eminent position as a local prosecutor is on the same level as a well run sober north European country. Not just in legal matters but many others the EU is not sustainable in the long term until Europe's diversity is admitted to and factored in.

We have not done much better here in the UK as many have swallowed the bullshiat line fed by the tabloid press about this, and many other things. Why?Until this case I had honestly supposed that many tabloiud hacks wer cynically spouting lies. However seeing that Kercher's father, a tabloid reporter himself, actually believed the pathetic rubbish that the Italians came up with which allowed the man who murdered and raped his daughter to get off lightly, it looks like some of them actually believe this crap.The bottom line is that I am less concerned about the new press control law coming out her in the UK because I think that much of "our" media is so irresponsible, ignorant and gullible that it sho ...

Favorited for being one of the few voices of reason in this thread.

I care not about Ms. Knox's nationality, ethnicity, or whether or not she is "cute" or educated. Based on the evidence I have heard, I believe Amanda and her boyfriend were railroaded by a corrupt prosecutor with a history of misconduct. Her "confession" came after over 50 hours of interrogation without the benefit of a lawyer, or even an English translator. The only DNA evidence found in and on the victim belonged to one man-Rudy Guede, and he never named the two kids as "accessories to the crime" until he was offered a deal by the prosecution that cut his prison time in half. The prosecution's only "eyewitness" that placed the pair near the scene of the crime that night was a homeless junkie, who had coincidentally testified for the prosecution in 3 other murder trials and was later found not to be credible.

The entire case against Knox and Sollecito stinks to high heaven. I doubt the US will allow extradition, based on the acquittal and the so-called "evidence", but I also hope the Italian authorities don't decide to prosecute Mr. Sollecito again just to cover their own bungling asses. And to those who think something like this couldn't happen here, I imagine the people who have spent decades in prison for crimes they didn't commit would disagree.

It sucks for the family of the victim, and for the other guy who was wrongly accused, but I hope they realize some day how badly this case was farked up by the prosecutors, and that they can heal and get on with their lives.

Ah, this thread again. Much like ethics_gradient, I also had the illuminating experience of being mistaken for someone else / messed with for kicks by cops (Eastern Europe, in this case). After three hours of being in a tiny room with four men carrying guns (this all started very early in the morning, as in 12 AM) I was a crying mess who had contradicted myself God knows how many times and who was less interested in convincing them of my innocence (since they'd made it clear they weren't interested in that story, and were insisting I had stolen something from someplace, never was clear from where) and more interested in finding the magic combination of words which would make them leave me alone. And the moral of that is ... confessions without supporting evidence are worthless. Spend a few hours screaming at, berating, and physically threatening someone and unless they're extremely unusual they'll say whatever you want -- or at least, contradict themselves often enough for you to catch them that way. If I had been with those guys for twelve hours, I would have been ready to confess to kidnapping the Lindbergh baby if they had made it clear that's what they wanted. (Incidentally, at the time I was also a white, decently-educated 20-year-old American girl. By the standards of some people, I guess that means I was actually guilty.

On the review, it was made pretty clear that Sollecito's knife was NOT a murder weapon, that they did not try to clean up the murder scene, that in fact they had fark-all to do with it unless somehow they learned to levitate and commit crimes without leaving a speck of DNA behind. With that gone, we were left with an unfortunately common and extremely plausible scenario; a burglar is surprised in the course of a burglary, panics, and murders the unfortunate intruder. The fact that Knox bought underwear, did stretches/cartwheels, and didn't clean the toilet properly has fark-all to do with her guilt or innocence. It's hard to believe Italy really wants to double down on this insanity, though God knows in the US we have enough prosecutors who refuse to let go of cases that have clearly been botched beyond all recognition.

Incidentally, I don't believe this was quite the all-consuming news item in the US that it was in the UK. I never even heard of it until the guilty verdict in late 2009.

It's amusing how naive people are in this thread, Yes Amanda Knox will be extradited back to Italy. The DOJ extradites people back to the EU all the time. This case just has a little more press then the others.

Bungles:R.A.Danny: Our point exactly. The prosecution doesn't get to appeal here like it does in Italy. Most Americans find this very distasteful.

The US has multiple rounds of appeal for the defense, that can last decades. How is this system any stranger?

It's pretty simple. You have a trial. You can appeal at the end of that trial. Given there have been two courts disagreeing, the case then, finally, reaches the Supreme Court to judge whether the trail and appeal were fair.

It seems quite a logical system,

The U.S. justice system is designed (though not always in practice) with the mindset of, "Better a hundred guilty people go free than one innocent go to jail." There's a high burden of proof for criminal prosecution, and the appeals process is to make sure that nothing went wrong that would send an innocent man to prison. Considering how easy it is for an overzealous prosecutor to screw up someone's life (like, say, in this case), the system is designed where once someone is acquitted, it's game over for the prosecution.

You say it's logical that prosecutors should have the ability to appeal acquittals. I'd put forward that considering how much power the government can have over a person tossed into the judicial system, I'd say it's horrifying. Yes, some who are guilty may go free. However, this also makes it harder for prosecutors who are shown to be wrong to keep innocents in prison.

poot42:While I don't think a re-trial should be allowed, there remain so many questions about what really happened to her room-mate over there. I don't recall that ever being clarified. Anybody really know?

It's pretty clear she was murdered by an intruder. Probably a surprised-the-burglar-who-panics case.

For some insane reason the prosecutor decided to go after her and her boyfriend also despite no real evidence indicating they had anything to do with it. (The only "evidence" is sloppy police work.)

CheatCommando:On the other hand, from further reading it appears that in the Knox case we have an initial conviction overturned on appeal that the high court is throwing back for retrial. That's actually not double jeopardy.

Agreed. It's not double jeopardy.

chrylis:This is less of a problem with the legal system generally as with prosecutors whose career prospects depend on putting people in jail, not justice, and who also can't ever admit to convicting (or usually even prosecuting) an innocent person. Even for the ones who want to be honest, cognitive dissonance sets in and you end up with arguments that DNA testing of old convictions shouldn't be allowed because it might call into question old convictions.

A prosecutor or politician that argues that should be executed.

DArque Bishop:These two statements remind me of the "Don't Talk to Police" video. Specifically, it reminds me of the second half, where the police officer points out that in other countries (and I'm sure Italy is one he means) they start out interrogations using fists instead of words. I would not put much stock in anything Amanda Knox said to authorities, especially if she didn't have an attorney (or as has been said, even a professional translator) present...

Yeah, when you don't speak a language at the native level you shouldn't try to communicate really important matters in it, especially where errors can't reasonably be corrected.

I'm married to a woman who didn't grow up with a word of English. Over the years there have been some pretty big misunderstandings--normally corrected very quickly but that's because it's a loving relationship, not an adversarial one. Even now I wouldn't want her in a courtroom without a translator.

Msphere:I have no idea if she's guilty or not, and I grant that the Italians have botched the job.

But it is irritating in the extreme when you have all these bloviating, white-knight Farkers who are so smug and sure that she's innocent that they taunt anyone who questions them with "No one ever gives any evidence. They got nothin'!" And they do this over and over again. Then someone posts a list of the evidence that the prosecution considered significant, and those white knights just farking disappear.

Except most of that list is the police botching the job. Most of the rest was statements under duress and confusion and should be thrown. That basically leaves some DNA--and they were living in the same house, some DNA spread is to be expected.

Thunderpipes:Traypack is his name, or should I use no_limit_N****? He was a thug wanna be.

You know, after how easily I made you look like a farking idiot, running from the thread the last time I encountered you, it shouldn't surprise me that this kind of backward thinking is part and parcel of your mindset. The disgusting racism (or is now culture bigotry?) comes off you in waves. The stink of hatred for all who think or believe differently than you is palpable. Your views are no longer considered due for consideration in my book. You are a disgusting human being and not worthy of being responded to. I like playing with trolls and spirited debate is fine, but this...this just disgusts me. You are a farking cocksucker. Unless you call me out directly (which you won't because you already know I'm smarter than you) I will never respond to you again, and furthermore, FARK degrades itself by permitting your presence in this already racist shiathole.

Again, the idiotic prosecutor was working from a theory that Knox and Sollecito killed Kercher with Lumumba (whom they knew well and WERE and associated with). When they matched the DNA to Guede the idiotic prosecutors just substituted Guede for Lumumba in their scenario. Problem Solved! (except for the fact that Knox and Sollecito were in no way connected to Guede).

FarkinNortherner:I'm deeply puzzled why there's not only a belief the US won't extradite her but that this is a good thing.

The US has a far from unblemished record in locking up and, indeed, executing innocent people, but I suspect most Americans would want a person who faced a murder charge in the US to be extradited from Italy, irrespective of the view of the case held by the Italian populace and/or its media.

She was already tried and acquitted. We object to sending her back for a second round.

manimal2878:ethics-gradient: manwithplanx: I'm curious as to whether the rest of the EU would have to hand her over should she go to any member country.

Yes I think we do, which is something I personally find appaling and frightening; that an incompetant system like Italy can reach out and grab people from here in the UK. (Not that the UK is perfect by any means, but the cynical stupidity of some of the other EU countries beats us by a long shot.)Why did our politicians allow this? I reckon it's actually the same root cause as the Euro crisis, a refusal to admit to the glaring reality that different EU countries have very different standards of competance in policing, judiciary, government and finance. Let's face it, some countries are better at some things than others.

Had Knox and Sollecito been tried in a British court of law I'm sure the judge would have ruled case dismissed within less than a day and they would have walked free without a stain on their characters.

I didn't think the UK was a member of the EU.

What? The UK is a member of the EU, but not a member of the single currency Eurozone.

Glad to see someone remembers this. The prosecutor is a complete nutjob.

Have you read The Monster of Florence by Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi? Mignini's one of several villains in it, and both authors spend time debunking his wild theories about the (still unsolved) Monster killings and satanic cults. Spezi has an understandable ax to grind, as Mignini put him in jail for several months on trumped-up charges related to the Monster case.

ethics-gradient:GungFu:Yeah, that's how Americans see it.Everyone else sees somehow who lied, accused an innocent man and has generally shown to be a bit of a coont.

I'm British and I don't believe your version for a minute, it stinks like sh*te.Anyone who has been picked up by a Mediterranean country's "police" and screamed at for several hours solid knows you're gonna end up saying what they want you to say. I was ready to "admit" to being a 6' German after only 2 hours (felt like much longer) so please spare me that "accused an innocent man" crap. She said what the police wanted, you would have done the same.A charitable view is that you're naive in the ways of the world.

These two statements remind me of the "Don't Talk to Police" video. Specifically, it reminds me of the second half, where the police officer points out that in other countries (and I'm sure Italy is one he means) they start out interrogations using fists instead of words. I would not put much stock in anything Amanda Knox said to authorities, especially if she didn't have an attorney (or as has been said, even a professional translator) present...

I was refreshing my memory on this case. The prosecutors working theory was that Knox and Sollecito committed the murder with Lumumba. When they found the DNA and fingerprints of Guede all over the room where Kercher was murdered they just substituted Guede for Lumumba. Voila!

Wow. I didn't know that foreign students had authority to arrest people. If the accusation was baseless as you said, then what farking investigator believed it. That's the investigator's fault, not hers. The investigator is the coont, as shown by farking up the entire investigation.

Wow, what a retarded judicial system you have in your head.

I'm under custody for a potential murder, and I say, it wasn't me, it was this other guy (who's innocent) and basically, it's not my fault for accusing him and if he gets detained in prison for two weeks while the cops investigate whether I was telling teh truth or not.

Fark me, you are retarded. No wonder people think she's entirely innocent. Retard thinking does that, I suppose.

Retard thinking. Is that being 100% sure she's guilty with no evidence of it? Shut the fark up already.

Wow. I didn't know that foreign students had authority to arrest people. If the accusation was baseless as you said, then what farking investigator believed it. That's the investigator's fault, not hers. The investigator is the coont, as shown by farking up the entire investigation.

Wow, what a retarded judicial system you have in your head.

I'm under custody for a potential murder, and I say, it wasn't me, it was this other guy (who's innocent) and basically, it's not my fault for accusing him and if he gets detained in prison for two weeks while the cops investigate whether I was telling teh truth or not.

Fark me, you are retarded. No wonder people think she's entirely innocent. Retard thinking does that, I suppose.

How about this. I interrogate you in an Italian Police station for four days straight and you not say anything false even when I'm screaming out you for not giving me the information that I want.

Wow. I didn't know that foreign students had authority to arrest people. If the accusation was baseless as you said, then what farking investigator believed it. That's the investigator's fault, not hers. The investigator is the coont, as shown by farking up the entire investigation.

Wow, what a retarded judicial system you have in your head.

I'm under custody for a potential murder, and I say, it wasn't me, it was this other guy (who's innocent) and basically, it's not my fault for accusing him and if he gets detained in prison for two weeks while the cops investigate whether I was telling teh truth or not.

Fark me, you are retarded. No wonder people think she's entirely innocent. Retard thinking does that, I suppose.

Oh Christ fark. If you're going to give a new fancy WYSIWYG posting area make it work.

Physical Evidence- coroner concluded there were multiple assailants- Kercher suffered knife wounds to both sides of her neck, most likely from different knives- Kercher suffered mixture of brutal stabbings and minor torture wounds- There was no evidence of anyone other than AK/RS/RG in the cottage

Forensic Evidence- Kercher DNA and Knox DNA on knife found at Sollecito's flat (Sollecito confirmed blood by saying he cut Kercher's finger)- Knox bloody footprints, one in Knox's bedroom, two in the hall- Knox and Kercher mixed DNA traces in Romanelli's bedroom and hall- woman's footprint on bedsheet in Kercher's room- Sollecito bloody footprint on bathroom mat- Sollecito DNA on Kercher's bra clasp- Knox DNA on Kercher's bra- Partial match to Knox's DNA on Kercher's bra claspTestimony Evidence- Knox confessed she was at the scene and heard Kercher being killed, she later retracted her confession- no alibi for Knox between 20:30 and 01:00 (Sollecito testified he was asleep and she may have gone out)- Knox and Sollecito changed their stories several times as new evidence emerged- Sollecito claimed he used his computer at home but no access between 21:10 and 01:00- Knox claimed they had dinner at 23:00, disproved by Sollecito's phone call with his father about plumbing leaks 20:30- Knox claimed she had shower at cottage despite the broken front window, open front door and blood in the bathroom- Knox and Sollecito claimed to be asleep until 10:30 but Sollecito computer accessed at 05:30, mobile phone used at 06:00 and 09:30- Knox and Sollecito knew details about the murder scene but were not in line of sight when the door was opened- Significant inconsistencies in Knox and Sollecito testimonies, both tried to blame it on memory lossWitness Evidence- Fabio Gioffredi (sees AK/RS/RG together several days before murder so they knew each other)- Antonio Curatolo (sees AK/RS at 21:30 and 23:00 basketball court, chatting animatedly, watching gate of cottage)- Hekuran Kokomani (sees AK/RS in car by cottage, hits RS, AK wields knife BUT Albanian drug dealer and his car parked on their drive?)- Mara Capezzali (hears a woman's scream and two people running from cottage 23:00-23:30)- Antonella Monacchia (hears man and woman arguing in Italian and a loud scream some time after 22:00)- Maria Dramis (hears footsteps on metal staircase at 23:00)- Giampaolo Lambrotti (mechanic who fixed broken-down car 22:30-23:30, saw small dark-coloured car parked outside the cottage)- Marco Quintavalle (sees AK in grocery store 07:45 morning after murder)- Alessandra Formica and boyfriend (Guede bumps into them when he is leaving cottage 22:30)- Mrs Lana (receives bomb threat 22:00, finds Kercher phones the following morning, coincidence?)- CCTV of woman in white skirt approaching cottage at 20:43 (corrected to 20:51), Kercher was with Purton until 20:55- CCTV of Guede approaching cottage at 20:10 (corrected to 20:18) and again at 20:40 (corrected to 20:48)Modified Murder Scene Evidence- Kercher's body moved after death (shoulder and bra strap imprint in dried blood), Guede seen leaving scene quickly- fake break-in (broken glass on both sides of window sill, glass on top of clothes/PC, closed shutters, impossible to climb in without cutting hands on glass, no systemmatic search for valuable items, no valuable items taken, trail of tiny glass particles from Filomena's room out of house)-Knox reading lamp found in Kercher's room on the floor behind the door indicates clean-up- No Knox fingerprints/DNA in her own room indicates clean-up- No heelprint on floor next to bathroom mat with partial footprint and no footprints from the bathroom indicates clean-up- Knox and Sollecito are the only people with a motive to rearrange the crime sceneCharacter Evidence- Knox and Sollecito did not break open Kercher's door for several hours depite concerns for her safety- Knox falsely accused Lumumba of the murder to save herself- Knox breakdown when she was shown the knifes in the drawer at the cottage- Knox irrational behaviour when arrested and lack of remorse for the victim- Knox wrote a story about drugging and raping a young girl and published it on her website- Knox promised Sollecito she would never take drugs again after the murder- Sollecito used hard drugs- Sollecito formerly disciplined by university for watching bestiality porn- Sollecito collected guro hentai and knives- Sollecito diary entry when Guede arrested, saying he was concerned about an 'unknown'- Sollecito carried pocket knife which matched murder weapon size, boasted to father "stupid police didn't find it"Other Evidence- Brutal attack followed by someone trying to help the victim indicates several people at cottage- Knox and Sollecito phones both switched off all evening, unusual for them- Knox had a similar amount of cash on her person to the money stolen from Kercher's bedroom- Knox had a minor cut/scratch on her neck the following morning

Look at Zimmerman. Mainstream media even alters police phone calls to make him look guilty. Our President came out and sided with Traypack. No evidence anywhere to support that, does not stop liberals. Foreign countries are even worse. The coverage of Traypack is absolutely terrible.

Don't pretend this is anything but politcal shenanigans.

Yeah, and he will get his day in court. A court which afaik his defense attorneys can strike down jurors who have bias vis a vis that media coverage.

I'm not saying we're perfect - we've certainly released more than our fair share of "convicted murderers" who were "totally innocent but kind of sketch so let's pin the crime on them and take the easy way out" - but to compare our justice system to Italy is freaking ridiculous. As is this comparison.

/Traypack, that's what you're calling the deceased kid now?//just call him by his goddamn name

Cheeseface:FarkinNortherner: I'm deeply puzzled why there's not only a belief the US won't extradite her but that this is a good thing.

The US has a far from unblemished record in locking up and, indeed, executing innocent people, but I suspect most Americans would want a person who faced a murder charge in the US to be extradited from Italy, irrespective of the view of the case held by the Italian populace and/or its media.

Not if we had already attempted a prosecution on this mystery Italian, and the evidence was spotty at best. I think protection from a second prosecution for the same crime is a fundamental pillar of our legal system in the States, and the guilt/innocence of the person doesn't matter. Maybe the prosecution shouldn't suck so badly next time?

The Italians won't be seeing her until the mystery Italian you speak of becomes a real person.

Not to mention the Mystery Italian would be given a lawyer could he not afford one and all that testimony without one would be inadmissable. Even OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony were afforded such a right.

Years ago, while in Rome; I and an Italian police officer witness an old man attempt to fondel a lady. Apon discovering that; both I and the victim were Americans, and the old man was Italian; the Italian police officer proceeded to state that the lady should watch where she stood next time and left, without lifting a finger.

Great Janitor:No murder weapon was found and they could arrive at no motive and the DNA was flawed, so the prosecutors say the acquittal of Knox was illogical??? Sounds to me like the acquittal was going to happen. I would love for our officials to review the case and tell Italy "No" on the extradition. Yes, while they can't tell Italy that they have to obey U.S. law with the bit of Double Jeopardy in a murder case that happened on Italian soil, they can still say "Unless you have any more evidence against Knox we aren't going to give up a U.S. citizen so you can continue re-trying the case until you get a conviction."

FarkinNortherner:I'm deeply puzzled why there's not only a belief the US won't extradite her but that this is a good thing.

The US has a far from unblemished record in locking up and, indeed, executing innocent people, but I suspect most Americans would want a person who faced a murder charge in the US to be extradited from Italy, irrespective of the view of the case held by the Italian populace and/or its media.

Not if we had already attempted a prosecution on this mystery Italian, and the evidence was spotty at best. I think protection from a second prosecution for the same crime is a fundamental pillar of our legal system in the States, and the guilt/innocence of the person doesn't matter. Maybe the prosecution shouldn't suck so badly next time?

The Italians won't be seeing her until the mystery Italian you speak of becomes a real person.

No murder weapon was found and they could arrive at no motive and the DNA was flawed, so the prosecutors say the acquittal of Knox was illogical??? Sounds to me like the acquittal was going to happen. I would love for our officials to review the case and tell Italy "No" on the extradition. Yes, while they can't tell Italy that they have to obey U.S. law with the bit of Double Jeopardy in a murder case that happened on Italian soil, they can still say "Unless you have any more evidence against Knox we aren't going to give up a U.S. citizen so you can continue re-trying the case until you get a conviction."

doubled99:Fark this murdering biatch. Maybe they can figure a way to retry Casey Anthony while they're at it.Can't believe all the dupes here.

Please expound on what evidence there is that Ms. Knox killed anyone.

Yeah. Like this is the forum for presenting evidence. I'll wait until you've read all the court transcripts and testimony.

What? We know the basic facts of the case. They had a trial. Please let us know which facts point to Ms. Knox being the perpetrator. (Keep in mind that a guy's semen was found in the victim and his bloody handprint was found at the scene).

They had a trial and everything? Oh. well I guess that settles that, then.Wonder why people are still upset about the Anthony or Simpson trials

Popcorn Johnny:What's funny about this is that Knox has a book coming out soon, so at least she's getting some extra publicity which should help sales.

Scenario that comes to mind is pretty much Italian Mafia: courts find out she is about to make some money off the book and decide to retry the case for one, the extra publicity for sales; two, they want a cut of the profits and if they don't get it they will reconvict her.

/I wouldn't be surprised if she burned her passport at the first family BBQ after getting home

JMacPA:maddogdelta: Wicked Chinchilla: Its been a while, but IIRC, he could have a happy ending, he just chooses not too. In the movie he forgives his would-be wife they and their son go live "happily ever after" fabulously rich.

This was the original story..

A recent book about it is here

Have you ever read the count of Monte Cristo? Having your father imprisoned for two years and then dying poor may be an inspirational starting place, but it hardly makes it a true story.

That's like Tom Clancy knowing a guy in the CIA who once went to Columbia and therefore claiming all his books are based on a true story.

I did not make any claims as to the story's veracity. I merely pointed out the biography of the person that most scholars believe was the influence for the novel "The Count of Monte Christo". Hence, the wording I chose "The original STORY"

If you want to browbeat me with your GED in Historical Liturachure, fine. But frankly, pick a fight with someone who gives a shiat, mmmmmmkay?

ElPresidente:Christohper Tappin, who thought he was exporting car batteries to the Netherlands only to find out they were batteries for 25-year-old missiles in Iran (which might not even still exist)

He openly discussed removal of military markings and had previously routed items to Iran, via the Netherlands, using the same company name as that given as the destination for the batteries. There are many concerns with the extradition treaty (although the US hasn't refused an extradition to the UK since the treaty agreement, the UK has refused 10 to the US), but taking Tappin as a cause celebre may be misguided.

doglover:manwithplanx: TFA said Italian Law cannot compel her to return to Italy from the United States

Ever hear of diplomacy?

You want your trade agreement, Mr Ambassador? *sips chianti* You give us the Knox girl and you get your agreement. And may your first child be a masculine child.

I sure have.

You want to rethink that stand, Mr Ambassador? *sips Kentucky bourbon* You ever been to Aviano? You remember how utterly dependent the local economy is on having a major USAF base there? I'm not saying we'll pull out, but Cyprus would just LOVE for us to drop all our money on them instead.

miss diminutive:I completely missed this case the first time around, but was there actually any evidence against her or was it simply a case of local authorities needing to pin it on someone and she was simply a suspect by virtue of living in the house?

doglover:Weaver95: its amazing the damage a stupid/corrupt/asshole district attorney can cause....

[talesuntangled.files.wordpress.com image 510x680]

It's based on a true story. Although in the real story, the man doesn't have a happy ending.

Its been a while, but IIRC, he could have a happy ending, he just chooses not too. In the movie he forgives his would-be wife they and their son go live "happily ever after" fabulously rich.

In the book though he never forgives her and the son is forced to go fight in the foreign legion or something (which...odds are he won't survive), and he's much more ruthless in his revenge for everyone. I actually prefer the book. The movie is ridiculously black and white in its portrayals of all the characters.

GungFu:miss diminutive: I completely missed this case the first time around, but was there actually any evidence against her or was it simply a case of local authorities needing to pin it on someone and she was simply a suspect by virtue of living in the house?

Yeah, that's how Americans see it.

Everyone else sees somehow who lied, accused an innocent man and has generally shown to be a bit of a coont.

doglover:Typical of a legal system. The truth doesn't matter, speed doesn't matter, common sense doesn't matter: as long as the lawyers have money to burn the battle isn't over. Ws are Ls waiting to happen and Ls are Ws ready to bloom and a decision is only final if you're unlucky enough to land in front a supreme court.

Sigh.

Anyway, I hope she bugs out to a country where Italy can't extradite her from and ends this case once and for all. It's too late for Justice.

Er, kinda like where she is now? She'll be tried in absentia.And if guilty, she fight to stay in the US for years.

doglover:Typical of a legal system. The truth doesn't matter, speed doesn't matter, common sense doesn't matter: as long as the lawyers have money to burn the battle isn't over. Ws are Ls waiting to happen and Ls are Ws ready to bloom and a decision is only final if you're unlucky enough to land in front a supreme court.

Sigh.

Anyway, I hope she bugs out to a country where Italy can't extradite her from and ends this case once and for all. It's too late for Justice.

TFA said Italian Law cannot compel her to return to Italy from the United States, but she may be tried in absentia and would presumably be arrested upon return to Italy should she be found guilty. I'm curious as to whether the rest of the EU would have to hand her over should she go to any member country.