High Elves:
- Horde invasion in 2nd war
- Slaughtered by Undead in 3rd war

Observations:
- Draenei were able to make a peace with orcs even fight alongside them a few times when it was realised the Legion was manipulating them
- Draenei were able to work with Blood elves when the Scryers surrendered voluntarily and asked to join them, later they fo armed the shattered offensive even though the blood elves were on the horde and had been fighting them.
- Blood elves were able to join the horde and forsaken despite past aggressions.
- Humans have fought alongside the horde for major threats since Wc3, despite being bitter enemies.

If You Discovered
iSylvanas' appointment and war effort was manipulated by Queen Azshara and she is the one truly responsible for Teldrassil and the whole BFA war

Would you be willing to give Sylvanas a chance to prove her mettle?

Would you accept the night elves able to put aside their anger at the horde for Teldrassil to take down Azshara and N'Zoth?

If it turns out that Sylvanas discovers she was manipulated and ends up being the key reason we are eventually able to take out N'zoth and she ends up doing something greatly heroic by springing a trap that would have killed Tyrande and the rest of the night elf forces who were in a strategic position to end the threat and her sacrifice is what allows Tyrande to finish Azshara/N'zoth and save a trapped Anduin.

She had lost half the horde to Saurfang /thrall, but her half was also engaging N'zoths/Azshara forces when she learnt of her manipulation Sylvanas didnt die whe her self sacrifice saved the kaldorei, Tyrande, alliance and horde forces and Anduin, but it changed her, she emerges, laying down the warchief mantle, allowing her half of the horde to join the Saurfang/Thrall horde, she also steps down as leader of the forsaken allowing Calia Menethil to lead them

Would you exonerate Sylvanas as a horde or alliance player and be proud of her?

Would you accept a horde and alliance peace as possible?

-Do you think the night elves can put their anger at the war of thorns aside and work with the horde?
-Do you think friendships between horde and alliance races can still happen?
Example:

Night elves with Nightborne and HighmountainTauren neither participated in the war of throns

Blood elves and Draenei, especially Lightforged

Humans and forsaken led by Calia

1. what about Pandaren? half of their continent was devastated by bloodshred
2. during WC3 bot Queldorei and human kingdoms were attacekd by Undead scourge which has nothing to do with organization called "new horde" aka Thrall's Horde
3. Night ELves were also attacked by orcs (Warsong Clan) during WC3 early stages

1. what about Pandaren? half of their continent was devastated by bloodshred
2. during WC3 bot Queldorei and human kingdoms were attacekd by Undead scourge which has nothing to do with organization called "new horde" aka Thrall's Horde
3. Night ELves were also attacked by orcs (Warsong Clan) during WC3 early stages

1. I kinda forgot about the Pandaren, they should be included, but wasnt it the zandalari and moguls effort for the bad bits? Garrosh swopped in and capitalised on what they started..,I think, not sure thi.

2. The high elf attack of the u dead scourge is led by the Lich king who is an orc continuing the original mandate of the horde. My reasoning g this stood that if you consider the orcs of wc1 and 2 the horde, (which you should) then you should consider Arthas and the scourge likewise, especially as Forsaken join the new horde putting either undead groups as horde

3. I didnt count that one because it was an attack, apskirmish, not even a major battle, the orcs at this point arent killing lots of night elves nor devastating most of their lands. Shortly after that skirmish they all work together m

The suffering of Alliance races is nothing compaired to the suffering the Draenei (eredar) race placed upon the Orcs.
They after all destroyed their planet and corrupted/enslaved their race with fel magic.

The suffering of Alliance races is nothing compaired to the suffering the Draenei (eredar) race placed upon the Orcs.
They after all destroyed their planet and corrupted/enslaved their race with fel magic.

The Draenei are the uncorrupted offshot of the corrupted Eredar, not the other way around. The Draenei did nothing to the Orcs, the Eredar did - namely Kil'jaeden and Talgath, using Gul'dan as their proxy.

The Draenei are the uncorrupted offshot of the corrupted Eredar, not the other way around. The Draenei did nothing to the Orcs, the Eredar did - namely Kil'jaeden and Talgath, using Gul'dan as their proxy.

By landing on Draenor in the first place, the draenei technically put everything that has come to pass since the invasion of Azeroth into motion. The Legion hunted them, and then influenced what was once a -relatively- peaceful race into a race of aggressors who then were promised glory on Azeroth, which of course led us into the mess of the Scourge, the First, Second and Third Wars and everything else the orcs were involved with. There would be no orcs on Azeroth were it not for the draenei and the eredar/Legion. So if anything, the races of the Alliance themselves suffered far worse at the actions, though completely unintended, of the draenei as a result of the loss of Argus due to the Legion. Everything else is the fallout. Not to mention blaming the current Horde for the actions of the old Horde (a demon influenced mass of Warmongers) means the same is true of the draenei. Some chose to side with the demons (Eredar), some did not (Draenei). For the orcs, some chose to side with Gul'dan and drink the blood, some did not (Frostwolves, the clan of orcs who birthed Thrall, who began the Horde of today).

I'm certainly not saying the current Horde hasn't done awful things (Teldrassil, Theramore, the druids in Stonetalon etc), but blaming them for The Scourge, the atrocities of the First and Second Wars is simply not fair if you don't take into account other factors or other actions that were beyond their control in the first place. Under Thrall the current 'Horde' was born anew and was basically a generally good and honorable faction. And by those guidelines, the Night Elves have definitely suffered the most.

By landing on Draenor in the first place, the draenei technically put everything that has come to pass since the invasion of Azeroth into motion. The Legion hunted them, and then influenced what was once a -relatively- peaceful race into a race of aggressors who then were promised glory on Azeroth, which of course led us into the mess of the Scourge, the First, Second and Third Wars and everything else the orcs were involved with. There would be no orcs on Azeroth were it not for the draenei and the eredar/Legion. So if anything, the races of the Alliance themselves suffered far worse at the actions, though completely unintended, of the draenei as a result of the loss of Argus due to the Legion. Everything else is the fallout. Not to mention blaming the current Horde for the actions of the old Horde (a demon influenced mass of Warmongers) means the same is true of the draenei. Some chose to side with the demons (Eredar), some did not (Draenei). For the orcs, some chose to side with Gul'dan and drink the blood, some did not (Frostwolves, the clan of orcs who birthed Thrall, who began the Horde of today).

I'm certainly not saying the current Horde hasn't done awful things (Teldrassil, Theramore, the druids in Stonetalon etc), but blaming them for The Scourge, the atrocities of the First and Second Wars is simply not fair if you don't take into account other factors or other actions that were beyond their control in the first place. Under Thrall the current 'Horde' was born anew and was basically a generally good and honorable faction. And by those guidelines, the Night Elves have definitely suffered the most.

The Draenei aren't responsible for the actions of Kil'jaeden - you can claim that the Draenei indirectly caused the Legion to find Draenor, but that claim does not imply blame. Kil'jaeden is responsible for Kil'jaeden, after all. Velen had good reason to think he and his Draenei had successfully and finally evaded the Legion on this backwater world, and beyond that was nothing if not kind and solicitous of the Orcish people. I also don't consider the New Horde of Thrall to be the inheritors of the Old Horde's actions - in their flight from the Eastern Kingdoms, their desire to atone, and their service in saving Azeroth in WC3 I believe they're owed the chance to start over, so to speak. Not to mention that Kil'jaeden's hate for Velen was a secondary concern - the Legion's overriding goal was still the destruction of the universe and all life *regardless* of where the Draenei might or might not have been. Sargeras also had an eye toward Azeroth well before the Draenei or the Orcs came there, all the way back to the War of the Ancients. So neither the Orcs nor the Draenei are responsible for Azeroth being the cross-hairs of the Legion.

The Draenei aren't responsible for the actions of Kil'jaeden - you can claim that the Draenei indirectly caused the Legion to find Draenor, but that claim does not imply blame. ... I also don't consider the New Horde of Thrall to be the inheritors of the Old Horde's actions - in their flight from the Eastern Kingdoms, their desire to atone, and their service in saving Azeroth in WC3

Thank you, this is exactly my point. The OP and many posts after are further vilifying The Horde of today for actions of The Old Horde. Even in a round about way of blaming the creation of The Scourge on the Horde, despite the fact it existed BEFORE The New Horde even formed. I don't actually blame the Draenei for anything, I was merely drawing parallels to say that is unfair to blame the current Horde for things that happened in the past based on decisions by some orcs (Gul'dan specifically, even Nerzul was technically manipulated by the Legion using lost loved ones to sway his decisions were Gul'dan was promised power). Velen and the Draenei were victims of certain individuals, absolutely.

I feel like we shouldn't even be counting the Old Horde in this; Blackhand and Doomhammer's Horde was as much the current Horde as the Iron Horde was. Prior to Thrall forming the New Horde, it was politically a very different entity.

That being said, attacking a neutral nation, eradicating their homeland, then years later destroying their new home seems pretty serious to me. Both of these actions were done under the Warchief's orders (Garrosh and Sylvanas, respectively), and that's why I'll vote for Gilneas/Worgen.

Originally Posted by Jastall

Erm, Kul Tiras left the Alliance after Dealin's campaigns precisely because the rest of the members did not endorse his actions, while Gilneas left because they didn't want to fund the camps.

Do you have a source on that? Per the WC2 manual, "Despite the impending Orcish invasion, Gilneas has remained separate from the Alliance of Lordaeron." (http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/War...%20edition.PDF) I realize manuals have been retconned before (WC3 states that the eredar corrupted Sargeras, not the other way around), so I'm just curious where there was a canonical source claiming Gilneas formally joined the Alliance of Lordaeron. Wowpedia states that Gilneas joined the Alliance of Lordaeron but cites the tabletop RPG, which isn't canon.

Do you have a source on that? Per the WC2 manual, "Despite the impending Orcish invasion, Gilneas has remained separate from the Alliance of Lordaeron." (http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/War...%20edition.PDF) I realize manuals have been retconned before (WC3 states that the eredar corrupted Sargeras, not the other way around), so I'm just curious where there was a canonical source claiming Gilneas formally joined the Alliance of Lordaeron. Wowpedia states that Gilneas joined the Alliance of Lordaeron but cites the tabletop RPG, which isn't canon.

According to this (also an old manual, but not retconned as far as I know) we're both right and wrong. Gilneas did not join the Alliance proper as I thought, but did send a token force to assist, as per Genn's Cataclym short story. However, the construction of the Greymane Wall was in part spurred by his refusal to assist Lordaeron with paying for the camps, and both Gilneas and Stromgarde withdrew support from the Alliance due to its refusal to exterminate the Orcs.