I knew of the Obelinskys, but had never heard what happened. That is so sad.

There were alot of kids with "problems", Jean Nichols was routed out of the SO because of her son (not sure what he did), and I know of quite a few others. In one case the son started fires around the Hacienda, and in another the parents were Fitness Boarded for refusing to disconnect from their troubled teen who had been offloaded.

Another thing to consider is that Sea Org mothers did not have normal prenatal care and were overworked and poorly fed. I even know of pregnant women who were on the RPF. Mothers were often put back on post within a few days, leaving their infants in the "nursery" with very poor care and conditions. Growing up with virtually no family time and little education or contact with the outside world...it is amazing any of the kids raised this way were even close to normal in their developement.

This is such a sad subject. I wasn't around the base more than a few years, but I saw enough neglectful and absent parenting to last a lifetime.

S.O. parents would literally only see there kids when they got up in the morning and when they came home at night and went to sleep. They stayed in the same room as there parents too. It was pathetic. Once in a blue moon they would have a liberty together and the "family" would have to take a bus to the beach or something.

I'm so damn glad to be out of there I can't even begin to tell you.

mb

Last edited by mr_bad on Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Here's Jabba the Hub as he writes crappy sci-fi while his wife sits prison...OT Priorities personified!!!

I think it was antisemetic. The book blames the Rothchilds, a jewish family, for funding the Nazi's rise to power. It doesn't really do anything to substantiate the claim. What's a person to do when they read that? Naturally, the assumption there is that Jews are evil--so evil that they would, in fact, cause the death of millions of their own people. Therefore, people should a hate the jews. Right??? In other words, nevermind the fact that millions of jews were killed during WWII, it's their own fault....that's bullshit.

I'll retract that statement about that book if you can tell me something contradicts the above statements.

I see, just because one of the players involved, the Rothschilds, claim to be jews. Well this has nothing to do with being jew or not jew, it has to do with true or not true. The Rothschilds have made their fortunes with crimes against humanity since before the Napoleonic wars, when the founder of the Rothschild dinasty learned the ropes of the trade from the very powerful German House of Hesse, who made their fortunes in whatever war was going on in Europe at the time by hiring their own people as mercenaries to whoever could pay the best price, (many of them fought with the British army during the civil war in America), they couldn't care less about the jews or anybody else, in order to achieve their goals. And, together with other worthy mates, officially against the Nazi, whose only religion is money and power, not the jewish or any other they officially may claim to follow, they have covertly financed Hitler's rise to power.
Wars are incredibly profitable for those who foment them ( but never fight in them ) and in order to have wars you have to first create the sides that you will then play against each other, with total disregard for the suffering of those involved in those wars, like Ron was the head of $cientology but couldn't care less about his $cientology slaves beyond his own personal convenience and profit.

Their original name was the House of Bauer, they changed it to the House of Rothschild ( German for Red Shield, from the red shield featured in their family coat of arms ) at some point in their history as the most powerful criminal dinasties do from time to time as part of the tricks they use to protect themselves and make it less obvious, for the many who suffer as a result of their actions, to figure out that the same people are "accidentally" always behind and profiting from the many horrors which officially "just happen", as they use the "antisemitic" card against anyone who try to look into the crimes against humanity they finance as another way to protect themselves from investigations which, if they took place, could lead to the "real source" of the wars and other horrors, and not those we are told by the medias they own or the history book they finance ( they seem to have a lot in common with Ron except for the scale of their crimes ) but because this is an off topic subject I prefer to continue this conversation via PM rather than on the board if you still intend to do so.

Even within the Sea Org, there were good parents and bad parents. There were parents that tried, to the best of their abilities and within the constraints that were put on them, to do right by their kids. And there were parents who used the demands of the organization and what those demands did to their time and life as an excuse to neglect their kids.

Hate to say it, because I really admired Ivan for a lot of other things. But he definitely fell in the latter category.

Even when there was â€œfamily timeâ€? in the SO, he rarely used that time to visit his children. He would leave to go to â€œfamily timeâ€?, then go back to his room and read a book. (He was a voracious reader.) Nighttimes, he would never leave the org generally until midnight or later. The CEO (the org that took care of the kids) were constantly writing Knowledge Reports and complaining because they were always stuck there waiting for the Obolensky kids to get picked up late into the night.

I always got the feeling that he didnâ€™t like his kids. His first wife Nancy was someone he got involved with, I believe, before the â€œ2Dâ€? rules. I think they wound up getting married because she got pregnant. Serge was a strange, difficult kid. (As I said earlier, I think he was autistic.) I know Ivan had issues with the way he was and the way he acted; I always got the impression when Serge was around that Ivan wished he would just go away.

When Ivan got involved wth Debbie, his second wife, it was when he was still legally married to Nancy. In California, it takes six months after a divorce is filed to be finalized. In the SO, itâ€™s considered to be â€œout 2Dâ€? (an RPFable offense) to get involved with someone else during this six months wait for your divorce to go through. Ivan somehow managed to get his first marriage annulled; his family had a lot of money and he probably paid a lawyer to maneuver this for him. It was quite a slap in the face to his first wife and their three kids.

Scientology could be considered to be responsible for certain things. But the individuals in it have their personal responsibilities, too. And Ivan was very irresponsible when it came to his children.

When he blew the org and Scientology for good, it wouldn't surprise me to find that he never looked back.

Serge's dad just seems like a deadbeat in the fullest sense of the word.

Sadly, that IS a product of Scientology, back when the kids were still allowed to be "in". They'd often be neglected. Finally the kids rebelled,
joined gangs here in LA, and that began the end of kids in the Sea Org.

Ivan worked VERY hard as the Commanding officer of AOLA.
Was he a bad Dad? No more than most of the others, from all that
I saw. Scientology pushed the Sea Org always to "Get their stats up,
#1".

magoo1 wrote:Ivan worked VERY hard as the Commanding officer of AOLA.
Was he a bad Dad? No more than most of the others, from all that
I saw.

Well, that's actually not true.

There were a lot of parents who, in spite of the difficult situation, did everything they could to spend time with their kids. When there was Family Time, they would go every single day and see them. When the kids were sent to the Ranch, they would jump through hoops to go to the Ranch and spend time with them. They fought for their kids and their right to be parents in any way they could.

It does a disservice to these staff to lump them all together with the parents who were not as responsible and say "they were all the same".

They weren't.

You see a lot of things as a staff member you wouldn't necessarily see as a public person.

Fair Enough....this is true. I totally saw parents in the Sea Org who
worked harder at being a parent than others. That wasn't my point.

My point is Scientology ....by it's very nature....was set up to promote,
and validate those whose stats were "UP" and harm those whose stats were down......without caring for the kids. Children of the Sea Org were always second class citizens in Scientology, for the years that I watched them, from birth up until their teens. This was a HUGE issue for me, which I spent years talking about it with Sea Org members, Execs etc.

Most of the kids I watched, and believe me, I watched them for years,
I audited people who supposedly cared for those kids, I walked by them daily as they were all stuck in a tiny square smaller than a postage stamp all day....I saw a lot. I would never say there weren't parents who tried their hardest to be better parents, dispite the system.

My point is the system itself was totally screwed---which gave the parents and kids little time together, dispite all the hooplah about how they care about families. I'm leaving out some seriously horrific details which I still cannot, and no doubt won't, post on a public message board about some Sea Org members I audited who supposedly cared for these kids, while their parents were "On Post". I was on this, hard and long...and the results were many of the kids joined damned Gangs! No one would listen, until that occurred. That got the Execs ears...but too late---these same kids were armed with one thing these same executives weren't counting on: The very 'tech' they lived by.

I was called in by OSA to try to help the kids who had joined gangs, so I knew about that. I knew why they came up with their "No kids in the Sea Org'...but I never, ever, until Andreas suggested I start reading, knew about the enforced abortions.

I read Andre Tabyoyian's wife, Mary's "Ladies, If you're thinking of joining the Sea Org, read this!" Article and I sat in my dining room and cried for hours. It was the true beginning of my final waking up. (If anyone has that, will you please post it here?)

Thanks for your in put, I didn't mean to put any parents down...good God, the Sea Org had THE hardest job ever as far as parenting, trying to follow Hubbard and squeeze in their kids. However, calling people "dead beat Dad's" ...when they're part of a system that promotes doing so, I didn't see as fair. The fact that some did a bit more, great for them. It still was
way too little for the kids, and for the parents, from all that I spoke to, and audited.

How often would you say the average parent in the Sea Org got to spend with their children, daily?

For someone who is a parent, just being in the Sea Org is neglect of children, a serious abdication of their moral and legal parenting responsibilities.

Having said that, I place 99% of the blame squarely on $cientology (and when I refer to $cientology, I mean the organization AND the tech). It's just another reason why this "church" should not be allowed to operate.

Having said that, I place 99% of the blame squarely on $cientology (and when I refer to $cientology, I mean the organization AND the tech). It's just another reason why this "church" should not be allowed to operate.

That's ~~exactly~~all I was trying to say. Thank you for saying it so well.

Neil, I felt the same way, sick. How utterly tragic! I'm sorry you found out on the Net, but at least now you know.

Ladybird: Thanks! I think that's it....they just titled it:
"Ladies, if you're thinking of joining the Sea Org: Read this!"
Since I had been in the SO, then routed out, I'd spent most of my
adult life wishing I could go back into the Sea Org, and planning to,
someday. Of course I'd seen SO much junk during those years,
I'd become very doubtful, and that put the nails in the coffin.

I deeply apologize. This was probably the most horrific thing I have ever seen. I saw people who acted like callous assholes who were completely indifferent to people who were in dire situations. Their attitude was always, "you pulled it in."

This situation with Serge was something I know deep down could have been averted if just one person cared, but as you know, $cientology is the world where "upstats are rewarded, downstats are offloaded." I don't think Serge was a downstat. I just think he had some special needs, and those fucking snobs at CC were too busy trying to suck Tom Cruise's cock and couldn't care less about Serge. I'm talking about Dave Petit, Karen Hollander, Tom Davis, and about 50 other people who worked there at the time. In my honest opinion, those people really only cared about their own personal stats, their families, and nothing else. They only pretended to care about other people. That's just was I observed.

I honestly believe--what goes around comes around, and they'll get what's coming to them. Even if it's only the realization that at the end of 35 years of service they've wasted there entire lives working for a cult--they'll be broke, tired, and have the sense they wasted their entire lives being devoted to a con man.

mb

Last edited by mr_bad on Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Here's Jabba the Hub as he writes crappy sci-fi while his wife sits prison...OT Priorities personified!!!

I think serge was only about age-17 when I knew him, which makes him only 30 now.

Serge did have some 'special needs' but he tried his best, and genuinely wanted to Improve conditions in the world.

He worked very hard cleaning the Galley, and I always could see a wonderful sparkle of quiet pride in his eyes, when at the end of a 10-hour shift, the galley would be gleaming and clean.

I also noticed the saddness in his eyes when his mother or father were mentioned.

At the end of his shift, 8am, instead of going back to his birthing to sleep, he'd head off up into the hills of Griffith Park. He'd talk about how he loved the peace and quiet up there, and the fresher air, and the scent of the Jasmin bushes.

Serge also loved to go to the movies, and he'd tell me about how great it was to sneak off and go see a film at the picturehouse on Hollywood Blvd.

I don't doubt Serge was a good guy. But you and I both know everyone who leaves the S.O. is dishonored and looked down on. It was so obvious when he left that he was deeply disturbed. Everything about Serge screamed that he needed help. It seemed that the only thing they were upset about when he left was not being able to squeeze another day of FREE LABOR out of him. And, once your out, you're not even allowed back on the premises until your freeloader debt is paid--the Sea Org operates on probably the most heartless system ever conceived.

All the work a person does for $cientology is immediately discredited once a person routes out or is routed out, and they are called a freeloader as if to say they were working 14 hours a day and 7 days a week and weren't pulling their weight. NO ONE from the S.O. is allowed to do anything for freeloaders, but it's not like they would have any free time to help someone like Serge even if they wanted to.

Serge wasn't able enough, so, they got rid of him.

mb

Last edited by mr_bad on Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Here's Jabba the Hub as he writes crappy sci-fi while his wife sits prison...OT Priorities personified!!!