Lee Strobel is a fraud. He was never an atheist, that's quite obviously a lie.

March 23rd, 2014, 4:28 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Blue,

You never cease to amaze me. So I take it you know Mr. Strobel personally? You know his background, and history? Just asking?

TDJ: I know you said that you did not read the book, and I'm not sure if it's an autobiography of how he came to be where he is at, I just know what I've heard said about him from key people. X was who he used to be, Y was what he set out to do based upon his own experiences, and Z is where he came to be based upon his own perspective and learning. I can't speak to what he used, whether it was true or false, that's not my gig, so just as you aren't looking for "faith" I've no interest in looking for those who chose to debunk whatever it is. I just know that several prominent Christian Pastors have stated their amazement at his story, and how it came to be, and I thought it might interest some of you because you are facts and figures guys.

I TOTALLY understand your statement about not looking for faith. For example, does a fish no anything about water, until it's pulled from it? Water is the fish's natural environment, it always has been and for the life of the fish always will be. The same sort of understanding can be said about natural man. IF we were meant to live in just the natural, then all the science, and theories would be the way to go. But we are NOT meant for just the physical, we can and will be transformed into the Spiritual in due time. The physical can not see nor comprehend the Spiritual, though we try. Think of all the fascination with angels, and mediums, and afterlife (no matter what religion), MAN was created for a combination physical/spiritual realm but the addition of sin, damaged that and there's only the one restoration. So again, I completely understand your lack of interest in that, I just thought you might be interested in the story of a man who once stood where you are at, and found something different through a process. No worries.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

March 23rd, 2014, 5:07 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3084

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity..

Quote:

So I take it you know Mr. Strobel personally?

Thankfully no. But fortunately I happen to be capable of doing this thing called "critical thinking."

Strobel clings to young earth creationist theories that are easily debunked (and have been many times). If he was once an atheist as he claims, he wouldn't be advocating such foolish arguments. It'd be like a socialist politician claiming they were once conservative but changed their mind when they realized free enterprise is inherently evil -- it's an absurd position that no thinking person could advocate.

Strobel uses the "I-used-to-be-an-atheist" meme as a cheap trick to sell books, nothing more. Without it, he'd just be another idiot.

March 23rd, 2014, 7:13 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Thankfully no eh? So am I to assume that you've never read his book either? Probably won't? That's fine, it's your decision. If you'll notice, I said I was just dishing up the plate, if you wanted to sample it or choose to eat the meal, it's there for the taking, if not, that's cool too! I find it very interesting how "critical thinking" is the so highly touted. It goes back to my point about the fish, a fish has no idea what water is until it's removed from it. Based on your assumptions, you are absolutely sure that this is all there is. You appear to be one of those who can not understand, nor accept the Spiritual aspect of life, and because that is the case, you reject anything that brings your thinking into question. From MY perspective, I believe it is because if you were to accept the possibility of the Spiritual reality, it would then hold you accountable for your current choices, and that would a responsibility for your future. So instead of dealing with that reality, it's easier to "debunk" it because the Spiritual can not be defined in terms, nor proven in evidence that the physical demands. Again, this is yet one other stone in the wait and see category. I just hope and PRAY that these little conversations will come back to your thinking when the truth IS revealed, so that you'll be able to see the truth and make a proper decision before it's too late. Again, the decision to pursue it or not is yours, I'm just the waiter, delivering the plate.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

March 23rd, 2014, 9:42 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3084

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

I read significant parts of The Case for Christ a few years ago. Never read The Case for a Creator, but that's really what set me off against Strobel. I'd always been skeptical of his "I-used-to-be-an-atheist-now-I'm-a-hardcore-Christian" story just because that doesn't make much sense, but when he started trotting out long-debunked arguments to slam evolution, it sealed the deal. Even most Christians dismiss him as a loon.

Quote:

If you'll notice, I said I was just dishing up the plate, if you wanted to sample it or choose to eat the meal, it's there for the taking

That's funny, this could apply to you exactly. Over the years I (and others on this forum) have tried to post things, link to articles, recommend books etc. that debunk the idiotic things you continue to reference/post about on this forum -- not the Christian faith, but just dumb stuff like young earth creationism.

March 24th, 2014, 8:33 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

I knew that this would come up, and even though I applaud your memory, I will state now as I did then. I will not read, or partake of any information that is contrary to Scripture because, quite frankly it is a waste of time. I know this will piss you and others off to the highest levels of pisstivity, I get it. And you have every right to take the same stance as I have, but I KNOW of what I'm speaking of, on a level that you can not fathom nor understand. The proof, and documentation that you seek has been provided in a multitude of ways, but is then "debunked" by Dr. Whosawhatsit because it didn't fit the common thought of the day, or something like that.

"For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God."

It goes back to what I said about the inability to Spiritually discern certain truths. This takes a meager amount of faith to take the first step, but there are many here that must see the evidence before they will believe. Quite frankly, Jesus stated that He will NOT produce the signs and wonders you requested, because he already has, and yet they continue to be "debunked" to fit the agenda.

It's all good, thanks for letting me know you read Case for Christ, I see that you truly are a seeker of knowledge, I just wish you could honestly take a step in faith, and open your eyes to levels of knowledge in relationship and truth that would BLOW YOUR MIND. Again, I'm just a waiter, I don't have the answers, I just know the one who does, and I"m trying to arrange the meeting. Have a great day, and let's just agree to sit back and wait some more. But please, keep the eyes open, because the days are very close, and you might still have a shot.....

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

March 24th, 2014, 12:37 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3084

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Thank you for admitting that you're a total hypocrite with no interest in other peoples' views and no capacity to ever reconsider your positions or empathize with someone else's beliefs. Please do us all a favor and stop posting in topics like these.

While I don't agree with Blueskies' tone, I do agree with him that you're being hypocritical. Why should any of us entertain anything you have to say or "take the first step" as you put it, when you won't do the same for us? From where I stand, there is absolutely no reason why I'd ever listen to anything you have to say about it if you're not willing to return the favor. That's just common decency, and if you're not willing to extend that to those with whom you disagree, then you might as well forget about even having a conversation. It's one sided and unfair.

_________________"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

March 24th, 2014, 3:35 pm

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12488

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Blue & TDJ - We've been through this countless times w/WarEr; he knows he's a hypocrite and doesn't care. I know it's not his intention, but that's the way it is. If you'll notice, I rarely get involved in these discussions anymore specifically because he refuses to do what he asks of us. It's his choice, just as its mine to not respond. Who knows, perhaps if enough of us stop 'feeding it', then these types of posts will become more infrequent.

Blue & TDJ - We've been through this countless times w/WarEr; he knows he's a hypocrite and doesn't care. I know it's not his intention, but that's the way it is. If you'll notice, I rarely get involved in these discussions anymore specifically because he refuses to do what he asks of us. It's his choice, just as its mine to not respond. Who knows, perhaps if enough of us stop 'feeding it', then these types of posts will become more infrequent.

Very true. I just get sucked back in every time he talks about wanting to have a dialogue about it. I should know better.

_________________"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

March 24th, 2014, 4:49 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9898Location: Dallas

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

saw Wag's updated this thread and I just had to peak in. Read back a few posts and remembered why I exited. That said, I think WE4C provided the perfect analogy for himself.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

It goes back to my point about the fish, a fish has no idea what water is until it's removed from it. Based on your assumptions, you are absolutely sure that this is all there is.

I'll take it even further, he is a Betta Fish or a Siamese fighting fish as some like to call them. Perhaps you have seen one at the store, they are very colorful small fish put in tiny round bowls. They can be very entertaining, all you need is a mirror. When you put the mirror up to the bowl, they "believe" they see another fish. Even though it isn't really another fish at all, they feel it with their heart and given this "truth" they begin to puff up, spread their gils, change colors and really put on a show. They need no proof or facts to know the other fish isn't real and can be very aggressive to show you they are correct (ever talk to a Betta fish about the president or gays). They can live their entire lives in a very tiny small bowl, not needing to ever swim elsewhere or look for answers because they all ready have them all and thinking otherwise "quite frankly it is a waste of time". They are convinced that one day, when we die of course and have no ability to verify it, we will see that the mirror was the truth as they told us all along. All that time spent in that tiny bowl will then have been well worth it as they now will swim in a beautiful ocean with that other fish they have so often been excited about during their precious time in that little bowl. As for the rest of us, he is convinced when we go we just get flushed down the toilet and we all know where that leads...

Pablo: You'd be absolutely correct about that being the perfect analogy for me, IF I were wrong, but I'm not, and time WILL tell. 1 thing we can be absolutely sure of throughout this entire discussion, one of us is correct, and one of us is wrong. Having said that, let's just sit back, wait and see how this comes about. If I prove to be wrong, then when we're both flying pieces of energy in the greater smorgasborg of nothingness, I'll apologize to you and any other people who happen to swim by in our primordial swamp. But IF I prove to be right, I just hope that you, and everyone else I've had the honor of chatting with, will be able to see what I was talking about this many years. I DON'T want to hear anyone tell me I was right, I just want you to see and know what I know, that's it.

For the record, I wanted to remind everyone that I am not asking you about Christianity, I'm trying to introduce you to the One who Christianity is based off of. There is a difference!

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

March 24th, 2014, 8:19 pm

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12488

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

For the record, I wanted to remind everyone that I am not asking you about Christianity, I'm trying to introduce you to the One who Christianity is based off of. There is a difference!

And most of us are asking you to think, read, etc stuff we share, not convert.

_________________

Quote:

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

March 25th, 2014, 8:31 am

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9898Location: Dallas

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

Pablo: You'd be absolutely correct about that being the perfect analogy for me, IF I were wrong, but I'm not, and time WILL tell. 1 thing we can be absolutely sure of throughout this entire discussion, one of us is correct, and one of us is wrong. Having said that, let's just sit back, wait and see how this comes about. If I prove to be wrong, then when we're both flying pieces of energy in the greater smorgasborg of nothingness, I'll apologize to you and any other people who happen to swim by in our primordial swamp. But IF I prove to be right, I just hope that you, and everyone else I've had the honor of chatting with, will be able to see what I was talking about this many years. I DON'T want to hear anyone tell me I was right, I just want you to see and know what I know, that's it.

For the record, I wanted to remind everyone that I am not asking you about Christianity, I'm trying to introduce you to the One who Christianity is based off of. There is a difference!

The Betta Fish was sure he is correct as well, he only looks to one answer and nothing else matters. What's amazing is that if you are correct, every other belief system in man's history was wrong and yours finally got it right. The common threads among all of them, they all thought they were right and everyone else was wrong and no proof existed to support their claims either - it's insanity over and over bro. Like most of them as well, you also ask me to wait until death to see if you were right - well, what was their payoff in the end? Who really knows?

The real sad part is your depiction of this amazing life have been blessed with, if you take out your faith you see us as "flying pieces of energy in the greater smorgasborg of nothingness" - it just continues the negative attitude towards most things it seems your faith has bestowed upon you, (we are all sinners, etc.). Your wrong, my friend, you have won the lottery. Not just the Powerball jackpot, but something much more amazing that gets more and more fascinating the more you explore and really think about things. You "live" your life from a negative perspective thinking your reward will come after your death instead of realizing you are right in the middle of your reward now. Hey, if you happen to be right - take that as a bonus and we can chat again on the other side. If not, enjoy everyday as the lotto winner you really are and realize just how short a timespan this ticket buys you. I'm grateful every single day I wake up in this wonderful "primordial swamp", but it is all perspective isn't it...

This is one of the MANY reasons that type/text is not a very good communicator, because it does not include the emotions and facial features which make up the majority of our communication.

Two things:

Wags: to your point, the information that you and others are trying to put before me, although interesting, doesn't really benefit me. Let me HUMBLY explain it like this. If I am on my way to Detroit, I don't need a road map that will take me to Auburn Hills, or Plymouth, or Grand Rapids, I need a map that will take me to Detroit. The information that you speak of, from other sources, other beliefs, and other things, tend to muddy the water. Its not that a conversion would take place, but the potential of corruption by something that is almost the truth but not entirely. For example: If in heading to Detroit, I'm off by 1 degree, in the distance of the trip I'll miss it entirely because of that 1 degree. Man is the author of all of the materials that have been pushed my way, it's their human perspective on a wide variety of topics. But the Bible is the "INSPIRED word of God." If God wants to communicate to His people in a language they understand, He could choose to do it physically, verbally, or in writing. Physically we would all perish because of our sin natures, and inability to be within His holy presence, Verbally, still happens on occasion, but not in the context with which you might think. And written, through the Scripture which has been proven that in the course of time to have remained true to form. Dr. David Jeremiah, a Christian Pastor, quoted the last line in much more detail, and reference points but I can't find that, or I would provide it here.

Pablo: I'm sorry but you are wrong in that I look at things from a negative aspect. I am living my "eternal life" now, and I'm reaping the rewards of friendship, fellowship, blessings, and much more. How many years have we been talking? And you STILL tolerate me? Through those conversations, a desire for you to come to know Jesus personally has developed, and I realize my inability to do little else to facilitate that, so I am continuing to pray. This didn't happen before, we didn't know each other, and sadly, we won't be able to sit around a table over a few drinks and have some lively but healthy conversations because of the distances. But we do have this. I know it frustrates people, I know that I'm tenacious, hard headed, determined, sometimes an rectum, but we still chat, right? What this boils down to is a difference in perspective. You can see good in humanity, as do I. I see the good in my daughter, and the way she loves and chooses to love those who are different, and teased in her class. I see beauty in the wilderness and love spending time there, and I'm thankful for those times I can. I see goodness in the random acts of kindness others perform, and I try to live each day doing the same. Kind words, showing love, physically, tangibly showing the Love of Christ through my actions. But I'm also aware that man is fallen by nature! We have a tendency towards self, and sin, that affects our choices. Not always, but it does happen. I am also able to read Scripture and see the truth that speaks of the days ahead, and the days we are now in. Because of my devotion to reading Scripture and the learning that happens there, I'm able to see the world from a different angle. With that being said, my heart is determined to share and reach out to as many people as I know to the best of my ability. If I were being negative, wouldn't I be keeping paradise all to myself? I don't want anyone else to know about it, because I want it all for me? But that's not the case! The other religions that are out there are variations from the original. Yes there is an enemy, and he HATES humanity because we bear the image of God. Satan is not the opposite of God, satan himself is a created being, who fell because of his own pride. He chose to become an enemy of God, and as an enemy that is powerless to attack God, will attack the ones who bear the image of God, there were created by God for the purpose of relationship. So it's not that I live in a negative state, carrying a sour expression, sucking the joy from life and trying to remove the joy from others. I'm hoping to play a part in reconnecting the relationship between y'all and Jesus by introduction.

Regardless of what happens, thanks for continuing to engage me, and put up with my stubborn mindset. It causes me to dig deeper, search harder, and pray more often, because I, me, am not capable of saving anyone, I can only point in the direction, and play a part in the introduction if allowed. Y'all have a blessed day!