Greg Goodknight posted Feb 11, 2014 12:32 AM (http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9382672) - GSC's remarks interspersed:>> On 02/10/2014 09:16 AM, GS Chandy wrote:> > Greg Goodknight posted Feb 10, 2014 9:37 AM> > (http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=938245> > 0) [Responding to Kirby Urner]:> >> It takes a great deal of naiveté to think> >> you were just too> >> good at it to continue.> >>> >> -Greg> >>> > I guess it takes a high level of sophistication> indeed (and no naiveté at all) to deal in slogans> like the following:> >> > - -- "PUT THE EDUCATION MAFIA IN JAIL!" (Haim, who> is alas no longer with us);> >> > - -- "BLOW UP THE SCHOOLS OF EDUCATION!" (Wayne> Bishop, inspired by Reid Lyon [Reading Research> Expert]);> >> > - -- "Children must be PUSHED or GOADED to learn> math!" [and presumably everything else] (Robert> Hansen [RH], PERT expert).> >> > ???> > My personal favorite is the statement by a past> president of Harvard > describing his Graduate School of Education as a> "kitten that ought to > be drowned.">Indeed? So do explain to us just how, in your opinion, "drowning the Harvard Graduate School of Education like a kitten" might contribute to improving the US educational system. Given that the training of teachers is a crucially important part of the 'education system', blowing up the schools of education (or "drowning the Harvard Graduate School of Education like a kitten") is surely not the way to go.

That kind of thinking is precisely what I'd classify as naive.

Ah, you're MAKING A JOKE! Ho! Ho!! Ho!!!

Jokes apart, do tell us just how you'd go about actually trying to improve the 'US (public school) educational system', which does appear to be in need of improvement from all that I've been reading about it (here and elsewhere). Doubtless, our Indian educational system requires much more significant improvement than does the US system. Some of those improvements that we need may well come into being if the US succeeds in making the improvements needed there. As I've noted in various earlier message, our 'experts' here in India often consider ideas tried out/implemented in the USA to be THE very last word in how to get done what we should get done.

It's entirely clear that we really do need to 'get a grip' on our systems. If we do not, we (i.e. humanity) are in for a great fall - we're reaching an inflection point (if we have not already passed it).

In order to enable us get a grip on our systems, our educational systems need most urgently to be become significantly more effective than they are currently (for a start). It should be entirely clear to anyone that such slogans suggested are not going to help us 'do the trick'.

Such slogans are in fact less than worthless (if our aim is to develop effective systems):

- -- "PUT THE EDUCATION MAFIA IN JAIL!" (Haim, who is alas no longer with us);

Needed improvements in our systems will never come about by reason of such slogans.> > Kids taking music lessons also need to be goaded into> practicing their > scales which seems drudgery at the time but essential> if they are to be > able to play their instrument well.>Not having studied music, I really couldn't tell you how I would have got myself to 'do the drudgery of scales' - but I HAVE studied some math, and I know pretty well how I got myself to 'do the needed drudgery in math': a perceptive teacher convinced me that it was well worth my while to do that drudgery. The PUSHING and GOADING came from within myself after he found ways to ENCOURAGE me effectively.

Thus, the approach I recommend would be, as oft explained, to ENCOURAGE the children in all possible ways to practice their scales or to do their exercises (mainly by making them aware of the importance of 'doing scales', exercises, what-not). Effectively ENCOURAGED, the children may learn how to PUSH themselves or even to GOAD themselves into doing the needed drudgery. (In fact, I would go so far as to claim that this is the ONLY way that children will really 'do their scales' in a 'learning mode', which is what is needed).> > > (Conundrum posed entirely in a spirit of genuine> > inquiry, not with a view to "poke with a stick" or> > anything naughty of that sort).> > There was no conundrum, and, of course, you were just> being naughty.>I agree that I may have been being somewhat 'naughty' - but it IS a conundrum all right: How to move forward beyond these silly slogans? That DOES seem to be extremely difficult, as is seen right here at Math-teach.

Most of us (i.e., humans) - inadequately understanding systems and what 'moves' them - appear prefer to have these silly slogans ruling our lives. That may have worked 'once upon a time' (in 'feudal' times or in an era where people were willing to accept the 'divine rights of kings', etc). Human beings have moved on a bit: these silly slogans will not work now.