Comments

This is a global problem. Apple is no different from other companies doing the same, but their huge success magnifies the situation.

All international companies treat their tax liability and employees with contempt. And Apple do to - they do little to protect their factory workers or their Apple store employees who are on minimum wage despite each probably selling >$1million of product every year

This is a global problem. Apple is no different from other companies doing the same, but their huge success magnifies the situation.

All international companies treat their tax liability and employees with contempt. And Apple do to - they do little to protect their factory workers or their Apple store employees who are on minimum wage despite each probably selling >$1million of product every year

Gosh, you mean that Apple is taking steps to keep as much of its own assets as possible, instead of giving it to money grubbing statists, who did absolutely nothing to earn that money, who think that it's somehow immoral and against the laws of nature for one entity to have more money than another?

Avoiding taxes is the moral high ground, not the low road.

Avoiding taxes is the moral high ground, not the low road. - That is some logic, that I have read in AI forum in a long long time. You may NEED to think next time, before you post!!!

This is a damage control statement. The article by the BBC is a damning revelation that leaves Apple in a bad moral light.

The questionnaire leak alone paints a picture which will make everyone in PR at Apple squirm.

This is going to be like quicksand in the sense that any move to defend itself will probably make things worse. Just like this statement has done. I can see it being torn apart line by line for deliberately trying to distract from the reality that the leaks have put onto the table.

What leaks????? Apple's rebuttal specifically states that when the move the Jersey was made Apple notified Ireland, the EU and the US. Seems to me that Apple's move was fully transparent and there was no attempt to hide its actions.

The Paradise Papers.

Isn't a leak supposed to be something that was secret?

On a moral level people will make up their own minds but Apple made this statement precisely because this is a PR disaster. The question is, was it wise or not to make such a statement just two days into the storm?

You and your Apple disasters. I’ve never seen so much wishful thinking from the knockoffs gallery.

Why is it so high a tax rate for US company to bring home earnings? It’s like the US Government doesn’t want US multinational company to bring back any earnings to the US. High repatriation tax rate makes company looks for loopholes to pay less taxes. The US Congress should be saying “we see what’s happening; let’s reduce repatriation tax rate to make is easy for company to bring back earning from abroad so these companies can use the money to create more jobs” or something to that nature. It boggles my mind the stupidity of high repatriation tax rate.

I take a slightly different viewpoint. Earnings are made in tax years and rules apply to those years. Whatever the rules are, companies in any given tax jurisdiction, should abide by those rules and push for a change in tax legislation if they consider them to be unfair.

From a moral perspective, I believe witholding payment of taxes until such a time is 'right' for the company, is wrong. As is the idea that a company itself, can determine how much to make available for taxation. Especially if that same option is not open to competitors.

You can be sure that some here will roll out the shareholder argument and that Apple must do all it can to maximise it's return to shareholders, even if it means employing questionable accounting practices. That is missing the point entirely.

When you do your own taxes do you ever decide late in the year to add more money to a tax deferred account or perhaps time your sale of assets to defer taxes by 1 year? If not, you're a fool. The tax laws lay out what is permissible. Taking advantage of every possibility to reduce or defer taxes within those boundaries is the only smart thing to do.

I suspect Avon B7 doesn’t grok that this is a tax deferral issue. Many seem to believe Apple is somehow avoiding taxes rather than merely deferring them. You’d think he be up to speed; the guy comments on pretty much every AI article, has been around for years... but some folks never catch on, and that betrays an ulterior motive/agenda.

He's a troll. First is was the MBP had poor sales, just wait. Then it was they said it was strong but never reported numbers besides massive profits and increased unit sales. Now it's they are lying about the iPhone X.

This guy is our resident concern troll.

Yeah he’s a master of moving the goalposts however it suits him — now that the X appears to be killing it, he’s saying the “true” measure of its success can’t be known until next september. riiight...whatever helps you sleep at night.

This is a global problem. Apple is no different from other companies doing the same, but their huge success magnifies the situation.

All international companies treat their tax liability and employees with contempt. And Apple do to - they do little to protect their factory workers or their Apple store employees who are on minimum wage despite each probably selling >$1million of product every year

Product sales per employee? As of four years ago the average Apple store was selling approx. $50M in product and services. Should be higher than that now I would presume.

1) none of those user reported wages are minimum wage, as claimed.

2) no source provided for the claim that apple does little to protect “their” factory workers. first this assertion begins incorrect as apple doesn’t have factories or factory workers. but second, they nonetheless go to great lengths to protect their contract manufacturers’ workers building apple inventory, and this has been well publicized.

so both of the claims i highlighted are FUD bullshit. but thanks for weighing in — when it comes to apple FUD i know you’ve got us covered.

Why is it so high a tax rate for US company to bring home earnings? It’s like the US Government doesn’t want US multinational company to bring back any earnings to the US. High repatriation tax rate makes company looks for loopholes to pay less taxes. The US Congress should be saying “we see what’s happening; let’s reduce repatriation tax rate to make is easy for company to bring back earning from abroad so these companies can use the money to create more jobs” or something to that nature. It boggles my mind the stupidity of high repatriation tax rate.

High compared to what? If you lower it, won't be there people saying it is still too high?

This is a global problem. Apple is no different from other companies doing the same, but their huge success magnifies the situation.

All international companies treat their tax liability and employees with contempt. And Apple do to - they do little to protect their factory workers or their Apple store employees who are on minimum wage despite each probably selling >$1million of product every year

Product sales per employee? As of four years ago the average Apple store was selling approx. $50M in product and services. Should be higher than that now I would presume.

1) none of those user reported wages are minimum wage, as claimed.

2) no source provided for the claim that apple does little to protect “their” factory workers. first this assertion begins incorrect as apple doesn’t have factories or factory workers. but second, they nonetheless go to great lengths to protect their contract manufacturers’ workers building apple inventory, and this has been well publicized.

so both of the claims i highlighted are FUD bullshit. but thanks for weighing in — when it comes to apple FUD i know you’ve got us covered.

You're very welcome, and yes I do. I'll chime in when no one else does to counter misunderstandings vis-a-vis Apple just as I do with other companies/issues. This is one of those cases where you didn't know but I did know where to look.

I think it's nearly always better to post the source link so readers can see for themselves rather than just believing "some guy on the internet". You might like to make fun of it when it's not favorable to you but I doubt you're complaining about this one.

Think of it this way: what if you asked 100 random people on the street if they would prefer to...

A. Have an income level so low that they paid very little in taxesB. Have an income level so high that they paid the maximum in taxes

How many do you think are going to pick A? Very few. The truth of the matter is that paying a lot of taxes is not actually a burden at all, so statements about being the world's largest taxpayer are essentially meaningless. A poor person that pays sales tax, payroll tax, and state/city taxes has more of a tax burden relative to their income than Apple. They've got far more to worry about and everyone knows it.

I would actually argue I have more of burden since I am paying for the services I use plus paying for someone else.

I will use a very simple example, we all use roads, whether you drive on that road or not, we all benefit from the roads in this country. Those who pay less taxes due to making less, benefit equally to me who pays more taxes. I pay a disproportionate amount for my benefit since others are get the same value but for less cost to them. I know it is an over simplification, but taxes are suppose to cover general services which benefit everyone equally. But today we have a group of people who think those who work hard and achieve more should cover other people's share of the burden.

I personally would not have an issue if I knew everyone was paying in equally, but the system is not set up that way. Today if you make under a certain income level your actually incentivize not to do better, the solution people are coming up for this is what they call a Basic Wage (living wage), everyone will make x amount no matter way, But they never explain where all this money comes from. Why do they now tell you it comes from those people who make the most since they will continue pay higher taxes which get sent to those who are getting the Basic Wage.

Again I go back to what I said before, the government credit this mess and they have the authority to fix it and they are choosing not to. Make everyone pay the same, and the only way the government get more to speed is to make sure everyone make more. Our government and the economist who advise them have not figure out simple math, X% of growing number means their share grows along with everyone pay. I also believe everyone in congress pays should be tied to the median incoming of those they represent. If that happen watch how fast they pass laws which increase people's wages.

This is a global problem. Apple is no different from other companies doing the same, but their huge success magnifies the situation.

All international companies treat their tax liability and employees with contempt. And Apple do to - they do little to protect their factory workers or their Apple store employees who are on minimum wage despite each probably selling >$1million of product every year

Product sales per employee? As of four years ago the average Apple store was selling approx. $50M in product and services. Should be higher than that now I would presume.

I am not sure what that proves, other than a few Store leads are making $50K per year which is not too bad of a Salary. If you look at the total revenue for the year and divide it by total employees, each employee generates about $1.8M of revenue for Apple. We know many Apple engineers are making well over $100K/yr. When I look at a company I look at this number and look at the salary they are offering me and if revenue per employee is not at least 5X my pay, I most likely do not want to work for them. Companies who fall under this tend to struggle as business. But not everyone in the company can be at the 5X mark, most are going to below this. Most are more than happen accepting less, with lower wage means less responsibilities and no expectation make hard decision. Do you really think someone at the store floor should make as much as an engineer at Apple.

This is a global problem. Apple is no different from other companies doing the same, but their huge success magnifies the situation.

All international companies treat their tax liability and employees with contempt. And Apple do to - they do little to protect their factory workers or their Apple store employees who are on minimum wage despite each probably selling >$1million of product every year

Product sales per employee? As of four years ago the average Apple store was selling approx. $50M in product and services. Should be higher than that now I would presume.

I am not sure what that proves, other than a few Store leads are making $50K per year which is not too bad of a Salary. If you look at the total revenue for the year and divide it by total employees, each employee generates about $1.8M of revenue for Apple. We know many Apple engineers are making well over $100K/yr. When I look at a company I look at this number and look at the salary they are offering me and if revenue per employee is not at least 5X my pay, I most likely do not want to work for them. Companies who fall under this tend to struggle as business. But not everyone in the company can be at the 5X mark, most are going to below this. Most are more than happen accepting less, with lower wage means less responsibilities and no expectation make hard decision. Do you really think someone at the store floor should make as much as an engineer at Apple.

I think gatorguy was speaking strictly of average Apple Store sales; I agree that sales would likely be higher today. I don't think that he was commenting on "a raise" for employees.

All these mega companies, Apple included, always go with the tired line that "We pay all the taxes required by law" and "We operate legally everywhere" etc, etc.

Nobody disputes this - the problem is that this sleight of hand is legal.

Taxation requirements have been carefully setup around the world to legally benefit those who can afford to benefit from them. The likes of you and I have to pay whatever tax we must from our pay packets but if you are Apple, Google, Microsoft, IBM, Walmart, Virgin, Amazon, and on and on, then you can setup shell companies in Luxembourg, the Cayman islands, Jersey and so on in order to minimise the text you legally pay and increase your profits. You can afford to pay very clever accountants to ensure that your tax bills are as small as legally possible, whichever country you're selling in.

What is needed is a change in legislation to ensure that the taxes a company pays on its earnings in all countries where it operates are fair, not simply legally complying with the letter of the law.

Cities, towns and of course countries give tax breaks or deferrals to large companies all the time. Look at those ridiculous mega sports stadiums which American cities subsidize for billionaire team owners using city and state taxes. After the construction how many locals really benefit outside of low paying service jobs and some mid-managmene positions. It should not be any surprise that mega corporations like Apple take advantage of "loop holes" which are not errors in the tax code but carefully crafted "tax escapes" for big companies to exploit. The authors of these tax laws are trying to please their real masters and I am not talking about the average citizen. Political campaigns are fueled mostly by huge corporations which contribute to both candidates so no matter which wins they now have someone who is grateful and needs to pay back the favor.

Apple pays the most taxes because Apple is the most profitable company in the world, what do they want an award for this? I can say with certainty that nothing will change in regards to these tax haven and I find it almost ironic that companies such as Apple have amassed so much money and seem to be unable to access it now. Bite the bullet Apple, pay taxes on that money earned like the rest of do.

Do you pay taxes on your money earned every year? All of it? Or do you take advantage of provision in tax law that allows you set defer taxes on a portion of your income; 401(k)? Apple isn’t only the largest tax payer in the world, it’s also the largest in the US. And, Applepays a higher tax rate than many other large US corporations. Did you know GE managed its taxes for many years to pay an effective tax rate of 0%? That’s where the problems lie, not with provisions that work to allow corporations to defer repatriation.

are we comparing apples w apples here? From my reading Apple claims their tax liability to include consumption taxes like sales tax, vat, and gst which in concept are actually imposed on the consumer.

All these mega companies, Apple included, always go with the tired line that "We pay all the taxes required by law" and "We operate legally everywhere" etc, etc.

Nobody disputes this - the problem is that this sleight of hand is legal.

Taxation requirements have been carefully setup around the world to legally benefit those who can afford to benefit from them. The likes of you and I have to pay whatever tax we must from our pay packets but if you are Apple, Google, Microsoft, IBM, Walmart, Virgin, Amazon, and on and on, then you can setup shell companies in Luxembourg, the Cayman islands, Jersey and so on in order to minimise the text you legally pay and increase your profits. You can afford to pay very clever accountants to ensure that your tax bills are as small as legally possible, whichever country you're selling in.

What is needed is a change in legislation to ensure that the taxes a company pays on its earnings in all countries where it operates are fair, not simply legally complying with the letter of the law.

You do know why all these companies set up entities in other countries, to deal with trade barriers those counties set up. This is why the US does not tax income outside the US. They force companies to set up a business in those countries to do business in their country. The US is one of the few countries which do not required a company to have a US present to do business in the US. BTW, my wife worked in Japan for period of time and her wages she earned there were not taxable by the US government and she paid a flat Japanese tax which everyone pays no mater what. Should she also have to pay US taxes as well since she earned income outside the US and did not relay on US service during that time.

Why is it so high a tax rate for US company to bring home earnings? It’s like the US Government doesn’t want US multinational company to bring back any earnings to the US. High repatriation tax rate makes company looks for loopholes to pay less taxes. The US Congress should be saying “we see what’s happening; let’s reduce repatriation tax rate to make is easy for company to bring back earning from abroad so these companies can use the money to create more jobs” or something to that nature. It boggles my mind the stupidity of high repatriation tax rate.

I fail to see how allowing Apple to repatriate more of its ginormous offshore cash hoard back into the US is going to impact job creation in a meaningful way. Apple's entire existence depends on its ability to create products and services that a vast number of people want to buy. Giving Apple a bigger wad of cash is not going to incentivize them to go out and hire a boatload of people just because they can afford to. They already have sufficient working capital to do that if job creation was their primary objective. They hire based on the demand for their products and services, and requisite skills, not based on how much money they can afford to spend on resources, including the human variety. Having more cash on hand won't make Apple any smarter or more purposeful. Being smarter and more purposeful than the competition is what separates Apple from the pack. The cash repatriation deal is of more concern for the US government and how it manages international trade relationships. Apple needs to be totally focused on its customers right now, not politics or media hearsay.

Cities, towns and of course countries give tax breaks or deferrals to large companies all the time. Look at those ridiculous mega sports stadiums which American cities subsidize for billionaire team owners using city and state taxes. After the construction how many locals really benefit outside of low paying service jobs and some mid-managmene positions. It should not be any surprise that mega corporations like Apple take advantage of "loop holes" which are not errors in the tax code but carefully crafted "tax escapes" for big companies to exploit. The authors of these tax laws are trying to please their real masters and I am not talking about the average citizen. Political campaigns are fueled mostly by huge corporations which contribute to both candidates so no matter which wins they now have someone who is grateful and needs to pay back the favor.

Apple pays the most taxes because Apple is the most profitable company in the world, what do they want an award for this? I can say with certainty that nothing will change in regards to these tax haven and I find it almost ironic that companies such as Apple have amassed so much money and seem to be unable to access it now. Bite the bullet Apple, pay taxes on that money earned like the rest of do.

Do you pay taxes on your money earned every year? All of it? Or do you take advantage of provision in tax law that allows you set defer taxes on a portion of your income; 401(k)? Apple isn’t only the largest tax payer in the world, it’s also the largest in the US. And, Applepays a higher tax rate than many other large US corporations. Did you know GE managed its taxes for many years to pay an effective tax rate of 0%? That’s where the problems lie, not with provisions that work to allow corporations to defer repatriation.

Unlike a corporation private individuals eventually retire and and deferred income will be necessary to keep one alive. I don't have a billion dollars siting in a tax shelter.

Why is it so high a tax rate for US company to bring home earnings? It’s like the US Government doesn’t want US multinational company to bring back any earnings to the US. High repatriation tax rate makes company looks for loopholes to pay less taxes. The US Congress should be saying “we see what’s happening; let’s reduce repatriation tax rate to make is easy for company to bring back earning from abroad so these companies can use the money to create more jobs” or something to that nature. It boggles my mind the stupidity of high repatriation tax rate.

I take a slightly different viewpoint. Earnings are made in tax years and rules apply to those years. Whatever the rules are, companies in any given tax jurisdiction, should abide by those rules and push for a change in tax legislation if they consider them to be unfair.

From a moral perspective, I believe witholding payment of taxes until such a time is 'right' for the company, is wrong. As is the idea that a company itself, can determine how much to make available for taxation. Especially if that same option is not open to competitors.

You can be sure that some here will roll out the shareholder argument and that Apple must do all it can to maximise it's return to shareholders, even if it means employing questionable accounting practices. That is missing the point entirely.

When you do your own taxes do you ever decide late in the year to add more money to a tax deferred account or perhaps time your sale of assets to defer taxes by 1 year? If not, you're a fool. The tax laws lay out what is permissible. Taking advantage of every possibility to reduce or defer taxes within those boundaries is the only smart thing to do.

I suspect Avon B7 doesn’t grok that this is a tax deferral issue. Many seem to believe Apple is somehow avoiding taxes rather than merely deferring them. You’d think he be up to speed; the guy comments on pretty much every AI article, has been around for years... but some folks never catch on, and that betrays an ulterior motive/agenda.

He's a troll. First is was the MBP had poor sales, just wait. Then it was they said it was strong but never reported numbers besides massive profits and increased unit sales. Now it's they are lying about the iPhone X.

This guy is our resident concern troll.

Yup. It's pretty absurd, and very obvious. Yet for some reason he goes on and on.. stamping his little feet like he thinks he's fooling someone.

This is a damage control statement. The article by the BBC is a damning revelation that leaves Apple in a bad moral light.

The questionnaire leak alone paints a picture which will make everyone in PR at Apple squirm.

This is going to be like quicksand in the sense that any move to defend itself will probably make things worse. Just like this statement has done. I can see it being torn apart line by line for deliberately trying to distract from the reality that the leaks have put onto the table.

What leaks????? Apple's rebuttal specifically states that when the move the Jersey was made Apple notified Ireland, the EU and the US. Seems to me that Apple's move was fully transparent and there was no attempt to hide its actions.

The Paradise Papers.

Isn't a leak supposed to be something that was secret?

The key in this leak is that it provides the lines that help join the dots. Journalists have started to unravel some of the knots that have impeded efforts to do this. What we have seen so far is the tip of the iceberg and already some governments are on the scent. It everything were open as you suggest, governments wouldn't be acting on the content of this leak.

The next step on a government level is to make sure everything is legal and take action against anyone found to be outside the law.

On a moral level people will make up their own minds but Apple made this statement precisely because this is a PR disaster. The question is, was it wise or not to make such a statement just two days into the storm?

Seems to me governments are are acting to deflect the blame from themselves. It's their tax code that make all this possible, and probably entirely legal. They want to be let off the hook for being unwilling or unable to change any of this, so they promise to investigate, and wait till everyone forgets. Maybe the way this all works is the best that is humanly possible, but explaining that to people who just want to be angry is just too hard.

On a moral level people have already made up their minds. Some will see these leaks as confirmation of what the already believe, some will dismiss it as clickbait, most will not care.

This is a global problem. Apple is no different from other companies doing the same, but their huge success magnifies the situation.

All international companies treat their tax liability and employees with contempt. And Apple do to - they do little to protect their factory workers or their Apple store employees who are on minimum wage despite each probably selling >$1million of product every year

Apple retail employees make between $15 and $32 an hour, depending on experience, location, cost of living in the area, and position.

I have no first-hand experience with the factories, and how much Apple gives in the way of protections seems to vary very much depending on whose axe is being ground.

Cities, towns and of course countries give tax breaks or deferrals to large companies all the time. Look at those ridiculous mega sports stadiums which American cities subsidize for billionaire team owners using city and state taxes. After the construction how many locals really benefit outside of low paying service jobs and some mid-managmene positions. It should not be any surprise that mega corporations like Apple take advantage of "loop holes" which are not errors in the tax code but carefully crafted "tax escapes" for big companies to exploit. The authors of these tax laws are trying to please their real masters and I am not talking about the average citizen. Political campaigns are fueled mostly by huge corporations which contribute to both candidates so no matter which wins they now have someone who is grateful and needs to pay back the favor.

Apple pays the most taxes because Apple is the most profitable company in the world, what do they want an award for this? I can say with certainty that nothing will change in regards to these tax haven and I find it almost ironic that companies such as Apple have amassed so much money and seem to be unable to access it now. Bite the bullet Apple, pay taxes on that money earned like the rest of do.

Do you pay taxes on your money earned every year? All of it? Or do you take advantage of provision in tax law that allows you set defer taxes on a portion of your income; 401(k)? Apple isn’t only the largest tax payer in the world, it’s also the largest in the US. And, Applepays a higher tax rate than many other large US corporations. Did you know GE managed its taxes for many years to pay an effective tax rate of 0%? That’s where the problems lie, not with provisions that work to allow corporations to defer repatriation.

Unlike a corporation private individuals eventually retire and and deferred income will be necessary to keep one alive. I don't have a billion dollars siting in a tax shelter.

Apple has 86,000 employees. 86,000 poeple with 401(k) certainly represent more than $1billion. Far more. But your point isn’t of any consequence.

The point is, Apple simply doesn’t owe taxes on money it hasn’t repatriated. Ever. It could keep that money offshore and use it to invest in manufacturing facilities, R&D facilities, to build out its network of Apple stores in 195 other countries, to acquire non-US companies, etc. Money used for those purposes would never be subject to US taxes. And therein lies the salient difference; we speak of tax deferral only in the sense that, should Apple one day decide to repatriate some of its foreign-earned profits, it would at that point owe the US taxes on those profits, having deferred that obligation from the time the profits were earned until thetime they were repatriated. And Apple does record, on its balance sheet, a potential future tax liability on some of its foreign-earning profits, because it anticipates it may one day decide to repatriate some of that money. But it has no specific obligation to ever do so. So Apple is not avoiding paying taxes it owes, as some suggest, nor is it deferring ‘owed’ taxes. It’s entirely a corporation’s choice where it will eventually spend/distribute its foreign-earned profits, and only if the corporation decides to spend/distribute some of those profits back here in the states would it create a tax liability against them.

By the way, Apple has already paid taxes, to foreign governments, against those foreign-earned profits in the various countries where the profits were earned. That’s another bit of info people seem to neglect to understand. Taxes have been paid. The US government, via its tax laws, has signaled to US-based multinational companies that its cool with profits earned offshore being reinvested/spent offshore without any taxes due to the US IRS, and that only those profits that are repatriated incur a US tax.