I am not sure what everybody want's
Single or double.
I think single might be better but what do other people think?

i once started a single sided layout but then stopped it. it's a mess. i ended up with very long traces and a lot of jumpers - more than i wanted. no fun at all.
the complexity of the circuit demands a double sided layout, i think._________________
cheers,
matthias
____________
fonitronik at
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From doing the stripboards, and knowing how much hassle it is to route all the chips to get the panel connections in the right order, I would recommend double._________________What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.

I've just been having a look at ExpressPCB. It looks really nice. I'll need to start by doing a few schems to get used to the interface._________________What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.

I am not sure what everybody want's
Single or double.
I think single might be better but what do other people think?

double makes more sense as far as the circuit/complexity goes... but a consequence is that they'd probably need to be ordered from ExpressPCB, since doublesided boards of that complexity would be pretty difficult to home etch...

I've never etched anything doublesided in my life - wouldn't want to start with this..

It's doable if there aren't too many via's. With enough care it's not that hard to get the sides to line up, but as far as I know you can't do metallized through holes yourself, so via's must be hand-soldered with bits of wire and components might have to be soldered on both sides.

So you can design DIY-friendly double sided boards and (very) DIY-unfriendly ones. DIY friendly would be having tracks connect at resistors or diodes as much as possible, as these are easy to solder on both sides, and add extra via's next to components that are impossible to solder on both sides.

I've never etched anything doublesided in my life - wouldn't want to start with this..

It's doable if there aren't too many via's. With enough care it's not that hard to get the sides to line up, but as far as I know you can't do metallized through holes yourself, so via's must be hand-soldered with bits of wire and components might have to be soldered on both sides.

So you can design DIY-friendly double sided boards and (very) DIY-unfriendly ones. DIY friendly would be having tracks connect at resistors or diodes as much as possible, as these are easy to solder on both sides, and add extra via's next to components that are impossible to solder on both sides.

Just in case anyone was wondering, I have begun learning PCBExpress, but, Fonik pointed out to me that you still need to physically place all the components when doing a PCB, (ie, it can't be automatically created from the schem (what was I thinking? )) Therefore, I doubt I'll be doing the fizzy version! (This year anyway! ) I don't feel bad, cos the stripboards are a beautiful thing.
BTW Is anyone actually looking at building them? You better be!! Or I'll be one very soggy puppy!
TBH I just want to know if there are any errors! _________________What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.

don't feel bad, cos the stripboards are a beautiful thing.BTW Is anyone actually looking at building them? You better be!! Or I'll be one very soggy puppy!
TBH I just want to know if there are any errors!

I intend to build a stripboard version. As I find time, that is, but it looks quite doable. Never built an entire module off strippy board before.

Here is the latest and (I hope) definitive Klee package - I've deleted the previous version and uploaded this one.

It's the Krunkus Edition Klee - the file contains the Klee schematics and the Krunkus Stripboard layout files. The Klee schematics have been changed to reflect the actual connections used by Uncle K (he re-arranged some IC sections to be more conducive to a stripboard layout).

I've also corrected the ref des mistakes on Clock and Load, and replaced the switch symbols used previously for actual momentary switches where used on that schematic.

Now that the Klee breadboard has been taken out of the cobwebs, I've been having a bit of fun with it (and it is a maddeningly fun device to work with).

So, I thought from time to time I would post a few operational tips on it, in case it actually comes to life anywhere besides here.

This issue touches lightly on the gate bus.

The Klee Pattern and the output of the Gate Bus are joined at the hip, shoulder, and lumbar region of the lower back - IE, they're inextricably entertwined. If you change one bit in the pattern, the gate bus is likely to respond in a way that, though often unpredictable unless you have time to sit down and sketch out, more often than not fits in an odd, Klee-like way with what's going on at the time.

To briefly review the action of the gate bus: it consists of three busses, plus a constant pair of outputs that generate gate/trigger pairs for each clock of the Klee. The gate bus consists of a row of switches, one per Klee pattern bit. Each switch is used to direct the signal of the bit it is assigned to to Gate Bus 1, Gate Bus 2 or Gate Bus 3 when its bit goes high. So, as an illuminated LED marches past a particular stage, the switch will send a gate/trigger pair out on the bus that it is switched to. This is easy enough to understand and predict when only one bit is active, as in a 'normal' sequencer.

However, when more than one bit is active (a 'Klee pattern'), and more than one switch is assigned to either Bus 1, 2 or 3, then the number of trigger/gate pairs generated per repetition of the pattern is less obvious - for example, if the two 'on' switches have the same spacing as two bits in a Klee Pattern, they will only generate one gate/trigger pair per repetition, because they are both high at the same time. If only one switch is on bus 1 or bus 3, you can be assured that the number of gates and triggers generated on that bus will be the same number of bits in the Klee pattern. This is not true of Bus 2, however, because it is a logical bus, and it goes high only when Bus 1 or Bus 3 are not high. Clear as mud? I thought so.

Just remember that the pattern and the gate bus switch settings both affect the number of gates and triggers generated on a bus, and that it's much, much, much more easy to just *do it* than to describe it.

I thought it might be easier just understand it a bit just to listen to the effect of the gate bus, and an application of it.

This example was taken from a television commercial featuring the newly introduced Krunkite His&Hers Salamander Skin Thong. It featured a bevy of people of all three sexes on the rock formerly known as Ayers (can't recall the name offhand) sporting the thong while capturing wasps with butterfly nets.

Two VCOs are used - one is controlled by the A+B output, and the other is controlled by the B output and is hardsynced to the first oscillator. A keyboard voltage is also controlling both oscillators. The oscillators are mixed and passed through a filter, which is controlled by an envelope generator. Another envelope generator is controlling the VCA the signal from the filter is passing through. Both envelope generators are controlled by the same signals:

The gate output of Bus 1 and the trigger output of Bus 3.

The gate bus has all but two switches set for gate bus 2. One switch is set for gate bus 1 and the other is set for gate bus 3. The Klee pattern switches are set to on on eight unevenly spaced pattern switches, producing an eight bit pattern.

The first sample, krunkite_sal_thong_elements, reveals the effect each signal has on the patch. The first part is the envelope generator with just the trigger from gate bus 2 applied. For each repetition of the eight bit pattern, it generates five triggers. "Wha...?" you may ask, aren't there 14 switches set for gate bus 2? That's right, but, remember, we have one switch set for Bus 1 and one switch set for Bus 3, and gate bus 2 can only generate a gate/trigger pair when bus 1 or bus 3 is not high - the eight bit pattern is passing these two switches and, eleven steps out of sixteen, either gate bus 1 or gate bus 2 is high.

The second part of krunkite_sal_thong_elements consists of the signal generated by the envelope generator using only the gate signals from bus 1. You'll note that there are eight gates generated per repetition, because one switch is directing the bits to Gate Bus 1, and there are eight bits in the pattern.

The file krunkite_sal_thong_take1 contains the pattern derived from using both signals to control an envelope generator, and is an example of why I specifically wanted both triggers and gates to be generated by the Klee. This particular example uses signals from different busses to produce an accented response from the EG's (again, though two EGs are used, one for filter and one for VCA, they're both controlled by the same two signals).

The first part of krunkit_sal_thong_take1 is just the trigger signal again. Then I remove that signal and plug in the gate signal to the envelope generaor. Then, I plug the trigger signal from gate bus 2 back into it and it produces the quirky jingle Krunkite Products are famous for. By themselves, they're not much, but when the trigger is accenting the gate in that out-of-kilter fashion, it produces a much more interesting pattern.

As the jingle continues, I bring in a little digital delay for some counter point and I move up a note, down an note, then back up to a third note then back to the original using the keyboard. Other than switching the time constant of the EG controlling the filter down then back up (which is fairly subtle in this patch), that's about it. Another jingle in the can, and the salamander thong cash just starts rolling in.

I actually plan on building the Model 3 when I get to it - it has an extra 'normal' sequencer row (IE, one bit), with reverse, skip and all that good stuff if I have room for the control.

The idea is that each row of pots will be assignable to either the Klee control row or the normal control row. The gate bus will be the same - either it processes the control from the 'Klee' row or the sequencer row.

With this setup, one could have anywhere from two 16 stage Klees to four 8 stage Klees, or a 16 stage Klee and a 16 stage Normal sequencer, or four normal eight stage sequencers....or combinations of 8 and 16 stage.

Requires a separate sequencer control board (analogous to Clock and Load) another decoder, and another output board.

I've been following this thread for a bit and I've been listening to some of the mp3s...they're pretty damn cool. I would be very interested in PCBs if and when they are made. Working directly off schematics with perf board/breadboard is a little beyond me...soldering components to a PCB on the other hand I can handle.

I've been following this thread for a bit and I've been listening to some of the mp3s...they're pretty damn cool. I would be very interested in PCBs if and when they are made. Working directly off schematics with perf board/breadboard is a little beyond me...soldering components to a PCB on the other hand I can handle.

I've long been considering an abbreviated version of the Klee - sans the voltage outs. IE, just the gate bus. Choklitlove's questions got me to thinking about it on the way in to work today.

It would actually be one hell of a timing generator (they way I envision it): One LFO in would result in several interconnected gate/trigger patterns. It would be a great companion to several drum or synth voices, or providing timing to extended noodles, or for driving other sequencers, or all of the above simultaneously, while being a much less complex build.....

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