Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 18:37:58 GMT -5

1. What, if any, is the importance of showing an empty Blue Moon office and Agnes entering before everyone else on the first day back from vacation?

I think it was inspired. It linked the audience to the cast in yet another way. How could Blue Moon continue without the fans there to watch? If you weren’t there to gaze upon the shenanigans then, gosh darn it….it’s time for VACATION!

Post by jpen on Feb 3, 2009 18:39:32 GMT -5

7. Once Maddie fully understood what the situation was with David and Stephanie, do you feel she was sympathetic and really tried to help him through this crisis of his or do you think she just did not understand him? What was her motivation for telling David he was being selfish, inconsiderate and childish?

I was thinking about this all last night...the way Maddie's responses are structured in this episode are really fascinating, I think.

I'm gonna ask your indulgence here while I take the long way around to answer this question, because in my mind, her reaction in the garage starts with the bathroom scene. As I mentioned, at the beginning of the ep, we get the sense of possibility, the sense of a stronger connection between Maddie and David, and while things are not on a romantic footing yet, I think it's pretty clear that they both are considering it (I agree with gorky that this consideration goes back to "Witness," at least on a subconscious level).

Then David crawls into the bathroom, and Maddie suddenly takes on a less romantic, and more maternal role, from ordering him to let her in, to allying herself with David Sr. at the end of that scene. She says, with the full force of her outraged disappointment, "I'm going to call myself a cab"--and notice that she is standing, purse in hand, while David sits, wet and forlorn, on the edge of the tub.

This is not the first time that Maddie has acted like David's mother (My Fair David?) and it won't be the last--all the way into "Take My Wife," when she chides him for his lack of financial planning. But I find it so interesting here because of the sudden switch--one minute, she's giggly and girly, and the next, she's fiercely judgmental. I think her reaction in this scene arises from the fact that David has embarrassed her--she says "People are looking at me"--AND because, as much as they have recently shared, she has no idea what's wrong. There are two roads she could take here: she could be sympathetic to him, try to see the situation through his eyes, get down on her knees in front of him and say, "Tell me what's going on"--or she could get angry because of the way his behavior has reflected on her.

The next day (and really, I'm getting to the garage, I promise), she's remorseful because she knows she's made the wrong choice. So she calls him, waits for him, etc., and even when she finds him in her car, she's not mad--yet. When she sighs and sits on the edge of her car, it's obvious that she feels badly for him.

But when the situation with Stephanie finally becomes clear to her (and again, agree with gorky that she is being deliberately obtuse because she doesn't want to hear it), she falls right back into that maternal role. The idea of David and this woman "together" is so disturbing to her that she climbs back on her high horse.

Now, personally, I'm not sure that she is so upset because she feels that David's actions are sleazy. I think she is more bothered by the fact that the connection David felt with Stephanie was so intense ("This was one of THOSE nights...I know every pore on that woman's..." etc.)--her reaction ratchets up after he tells her all that. And, in fact, I would argue that she accuses him of being selfish, inconsiderate, and childish not only because of his behavior toward his father; on a deeper level (and again, probably subconsciously), Maddie is castigating his behavior toward HER. It was selfish, inconsiderate, and childish of him to describe in detail an amazing night he had with another woman--if she is going to allow him into her heart, she doesn't want to know about the other woman he's been with--she wants to be the first, the only, and the MOST (and don't we all feel that way about the people we love?).

Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 19:02:05 GMT -5

Wow, jpen: that was amazing. I've never thought of it that way before, but I think the Maddie-as-mother thing definitely works; you can see her switching gears from Giddy Potential Lover to Disappointed, Irritated Parent. Great observations.

If you don't mind, I'm going to run with this comment:

she is being deliberately obtuse because she doesn't want to hear it

Because I meant to mention this in one of my previous posts: the garage scene, in this episode, really does parallel the late-night scene between Maddie and David in "Blonde on Blonde". Only thing is, the roles are reversed. In this episode, Maddie doesn't want to think about David's past flings--at least not in any concrete, flesh and blood way--but he's forcing this information on her, and she's shocked, I think, by the vehemence of her response. I think it's physically paining her to picture David with another woman, especially when--like you said, jpen--he clearly enjoyed himself. It's the same thing in BoB: David doesn't want to consider the possibility that Maddie could want another person, need another person; he wants to be it for her, the same way she (eventually) wants to be it for him.

There are two roads she could take here: she could be sympathetic to him, try to see the situation through his eyes, get down on her knees in front of him and say, "Tell me what's going on"--or she could get angry because of the way his behavior has reflected on her.

Maddie is very much about appearances, and I agree that, in this moment, her embarrassment overrode her sympathy. I think that part of the problem is that mortification is her default emotion in David's presence--or at least up until now it has been. As her feelings for him are developing, maturing, she starts to respond to him differently. I think that's why she feels so bad about the whole thing the next morning--like you said, she knows she handled the situation poorly.

Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 19:02:46 GMT -5

2. What do you think of Maddie’s little smile when she awakens? Contrast this look with the look she has when she enters the office after the wobblies.Also, a wonderful touch. She was looking forward to getting back to US, oh yeah and Dave too! Time to return to mirth and merriment! Then again, she has a completely different feeling towards the hired help (ie the nose to the grindstone speech)

Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 19:15:49 GMT -5

3. Do you think Maddie spent her entire vacation in New York? And did she enjoy the time she was there? Did she actually meet up with friends and meet new ones? This is all speculation, I guess, but can be fun to think about!!

Nah, maybe she went, maybe she didn’t. Unfortunately this was another missed opportunity for us to know others in Maddie’s world. As to her recap of what happened…I thought she had that bit already prepared to rehash when she got to work, but after Agnes spilled her story about the Holy Lama, well, it just didn’t have the same bounce. Yes Miss Hayes…the rhyming receptionist trumped you!

Post by jpen on Feb 3, 2009 19:20:47 GMT -5

Because I meant to mention this in one of my previous posts: the garage scene, in this episode, really does parallel the late-night scene between Maddie and David in "Blonde on Blonde". Only thing is, the roles are reversed. In this episode, Maddie doesn't want to think about David's past flings--at least not in any concrete, flesh and blood way--but he's forcing this information on her, and she's shocked, I think, by the vehemence of her response. I think it's physically paining her to picture David with another woman, especially when--like you said, jpen--he clearly enjoyed himself. It's the same thing in BoB: David doesn't want to consider the possibility that Maddie could want another person, need another person; he wants to be it for her, the same way she (eventually) wants to be it for him.

BINGO, gorky!! I felt the same way--and I love these parallels! Gosh, these writers are GOOD. However, I think we feel more sympathy for David's reaction in BoB, for two reasons: in this ep, David is talking about something that happened years ago (before he even met Maddie), while Maddie wants to pursue a random man, even as David is aching for her! Additionally, after BMOMS and IAWJ their relationship has progressed, and it (should be) becoming more clear to both of them that there are some kind of romantic feelings there...OK, I'm heading seriously off-topic here--shall we go back to the "End Scene" thread?

"I don't want you losing any more sleep over me.""Believe me, if and when I ever find myself 'over' you, the last thing I'll be thinking about is sleeping."

Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 19:23:02 GMT -5

4. What do you make of David flat out lying to Maddie about spending the evening with his father? And why do you think Maddie let him continue in his little charade for so long before calling his hand?

Hey Gringettes, what do you expect? He ALWAYS fibs when it comes to his family or anything so personal. (Obviously we see this again in a larger context in Big Man on Mulberry Street on Disc 2). I figure he was hoping that he could avoid his dad long enough that he’d finally head back to Philly. Of course, WE know that his old man is just as stubborn as his son, and no way he was going to keep that meeting from happening.

Why did Maddie let it go on? That’s easy. To let Dave know that it is hopeless to lie to her because she will either already know the truth or will find OUT the truth sooner or later. Unfortunately Dave does not learn this point, at least not at this particular time.

Post by lin212 on Feb 3, 2009 19:27:02 GMT -5

1) The empty Blue Moon office and Agnes entering first before everyone else?

Agree with graycav on this one. It was a clever way to show that Blue Moon was closed (after all, we were coming off summer hiatus) and that they were now going to be back in business. Agnes coming in first was so appropriate. After all, I believe that she always was the first to show up and get things going for the day. Great way to start a new season.

Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 19:28:01 GMT -5

Hee, jpen, we have ventured a bit off-topic, haven't we? I'll take the blame for that--my brain can't seem to concentrate on just one thing; it keeps hopping around, making all these strange (probably inconsequential) connections. Although, in my defense, the writers were good; I could buy that the parallels were intentional. Maybe this talk would be better suited for the "End Scene" thread...

Attempting to get back on-topic (in a totally shallow way)--David Sr. was right: Bruce was looking good in this episode. As was Cybill (and also Charles Rocket, who I think was handsome, in an off-beat way). Their summer vacation--brief as it must've been--sure did them wonders. ;D

Edit:

I nominate you to write the "Pithy observations about ML"-a-Day calendar!

Post by lin212 on Feb 3, 2009 19:33:07 GMT -5

2). Maddie's little smile when she wakes up -

It's obvious that Maddie was so ready to get back to work (don't forget, this is the woman who loves Mondays!) and, most of all, see David. I can just imagine her heart racing, figuring out what she would wear to look her best, how it would feel to see him again. Sigh...yes, that smile was special.

I think that Maddie's huge overly dramatic smile at the wobblies was the lead in for her pep talk - full of enthusiasm for the next 50 weeks. Nothing like the knowing, secretive smile from earlier that morning.

Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 19:35:29 GMT -5

5. David makes this comment at the pre-wedding reception about the age of his father’s future wife: “I don’t know. Richie and I were young and he was never interested in us.”

We discussed David and his brother Richie’s relationship last week. Knowing what we know about those two and this telling comment, what inferences/speculations can we make about the relationship between all three of them?

The way David is so uncomfortable around his father, what type of relationship do you think they have?

You know, this situation is not all that different from a lot of us growing up in the 50s and 60s. Fathers worked and mom’s didn’t. Especially in traditional catholic households. Gender roles were well defined. The Dad laid down the rules and the Mom helped enforce them. If you had a boo boo, well Mom let you cry and then you sucked it up and went back out to play.

I will go on a tangent. Many fathers of this era were World War II veterans. They had seen so much horror, so much devastation and lost so many dear friends that they sometimes held back at making close emotional contact with others after the war. Often this included family as well. It wouldn’t be until later in life that they started opening up and allowing, say their sons, to feel an emotional bond with them similar to that they held with their comrades in arms.

Yeah, this is the same kinda thing I had with my Dad, bless his soul, although he and I never had a falling out or stopped talking like Dave. He was a great guy….and yes, I have tears in my eyes right now.

Post by jpen on Feb 3, 2009 19:36:35 GMT -5

4. Why did Maddie let it go on? That’s easy. To let Dave know that it is hopeless to lie to her because she will either already know the truth or will find OUT the truth sooner or later. Unfortunately Dave does not learn this point, at least not at this particular time.

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A mother ALWAYS knows...

Just kiddin'. I think also that it amuses her a little to see him twist in the wind...and she is genuinely intrigued by his relationship with his dad. When she says, "I don't understand," she's not being judgmental (this time!), she just wants know more. There are several points in this episode where you can see her mentally comparing her relationship with her parents with David's relationship with his dad.

It would've been nice to know more too about David's relationship with his mother, particularly given the intro to the show...