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Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

I would hypothesize that we're still in a place where we're over-genericizing things. While training, nutrition and bio-mechanical analysis have improved, the human physique is still essentially what is has always been. I would imagine that pitching is much like any physical activity and repetitive use injuries (even those that culminate in a traumatic event) are in large part of a function of the specifics of a given pitcher's body -- it's "design", it's recovery rate, etc.

One thing not taken in to account is the selection effect. If pitchers in the 60's were expected to throw 300 innings, the ones who were particularly susceptible to repetitive use injuries were more likely to get injured via overuse early in their baseball careers, lose effectiveness and fail make/establish themselves in the major leagues to begin with.

Would Rich Harden or Mark Prior have "survived" long enough to make the majors in 1966? It's possible that the pool of major league pitchers 40 years ago had already been filtered of it's most injury prone pitchers, making it appear that the average pitcher had greater ability to give innings. It's also quite possible that a number of pitchers today could be 300 inning guys were they given the opportunity to do so.

Add in the lack of the slider, an extremely stressful pitch to throw, and the increase of power throughout the lineup requiring a more sustained effort of the pitcher and it's easy to see the variety of explanations adding up.

I wonder how much of a change the college system is today. It seems to me (and this is simply my impression- I have not looked at numbers) is that more potential players go to college now instead of into the minors. (didn't the Cardinals once have over 30 minor league affiliates?). With the minors being there teams could develop a player for longer as it saw fit. Colleges, however, do not necessarily have a long term view for the player and if they do it is not necessarily consistent with how a pro team wants to use him. this can delay a pitcher's inning growth or have it occur in an inconsistent pattern. I wonder if this effects long term ability to handle innings.

Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY

I think there are a lot of colleges out there that abuse arms.

Isn't Rice one college that is notorious for abusing pitchers?

College coaches aren't responsible for getting college pitchers to the pros. They're paid to win games, and a lot of times they do that by riding their best pitchers too hard. Not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the way it is.

...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

Wasn't Leake used very heavily his last college year? Seems like I remember that.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

According to TheBaseballCube.com he was in 19 games his senior, starting 18 of them. He had seven complete games and 2 shutouts; also recording one save. He threw 142 innings.

That compares to his first two years where he appeared in 23 games (12 starts) and 19 games (16 starts). Both seasons he threw two complete games. His inning counts were 117.2 and 121.1 respectively). These were his age 19 thru 21 seasons.

As a comparison, here are Arroyo's numbers for the same three seasons (his 2nd thru 4th minor league years). All were starts except one relief appearance in season three.

Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

According to TheBaseballCube.com he was in 19 games his senior, starting 18 of them. He had seven complete games and 2 shutouts; also recording one save. He threw 142 innings.

That compares to his first two years where he appeared in 23 games (12 starts) and 19 games (16 starts). Both seasons he threw two complete games. His inning counts were 117.2 and 121.1 respectively). These were his age 19 thru 21 seasons.

As a comparison, here are Arroyo's numbers for the same three seasons (his 2nd thru 4th minor league years). All were starts except one relief appearance in season three.

I'll leave the call to others who are more familiar with what a heavy workload is.

That is good info.

It would be interesting to see how many pitches Leake threw in those complete games. There are two ways to overwork a pitcher. Too many innings in a season without sufficient rest between outings, and too many pitches in a game (or even an inning). Things like insufficient time to warm up, pitching while hurt or fatigued, or poor mechanics also affect how much you can throw without being overworked.

One additional factor is the pro season is much longer than the brief college season, so those innings were likely spread out more thinly for Arroyo than Leake.

Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

That is good info.

It would be interesting to see how many pitches Leake threw in those complete games. There are two ways to overwork a pitcher. Too many innings in a season without sufficient rest between outings, and too many pitches in a game (or even an inning).

One additional factor is the pro season is much longer than the brief college season, so those innings were likely spread out more thinly for Arroyo than Leake.

Most schools start playing in Mid-February. Some play through Mid-June. That is 5 full months. The minor league season is April-August. That is 5 months.

Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

The college season is more like 4 months or less and they play fewer games and they don't have 5-man rotations and they don't play Spring Training games like pro players do.

They do play fewer games, but the starters go once a week. Most teams probably do play 4 month seasons, but some play 5. Arizona State is the kind of team that was playing 4.5-5 month seasons with the CWS. They don't have spring training like the pros do though.

Re: Reds sign Mark Prior

Originally Posted by dougdirt

They do play fewer games, but the starters go once a week. Most teams probably do play 4 month seasons, but some play 5. Arizona State is the kind of team that was playing 4.5-5 month seasons with the CWS. They don't have spring training like the pros do though.

Yeah it is not a huge difference, but I would rather see my young hoss spread his 140 innings over 5 months instead of 4 months. It gives his arm more time to recuperate between outings. It is just a point to keep in mind when comparing innings thrown between amateurs and pros.

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