jollybarracuda:Wait wait. People are calling this guy dumb for saying this? People were practically making flags and waving them out in their yards when Gabe Newell said the same damn thing.

Funny how that works, eh?

And as Ladavac made clear, the problem isn't what Windows 8 is doing right now - it's what it or some successor might do in the future if Microsoft continues moving toward the "walled garden." Everyone calling him an idiot would do well to remember that he's not some random crank, and he's not alone.

I don't know. I think it's funnier that many of the people I hear lately commenting on how stupid it is to complain about something that might happen in the future are the same people I've seen constantly bitch about some monopolistic, sinister turn Steam might take in the future.

I guess hypocrisy is a common bedfellow now-a-days.

Anyway, you're right. Calling Ladavac and the others "idiots" over their statements is a bit of a knee-jerk response. These are people who, generally speaking, have their fingers on the pulse of the gaming industry. To simply dismiss their concerns because we don't quite share them might not be wise.

jollybarracuda:Wait wait. People are calling this guy dumb for saying this? People were practically making flags and waving them out in their yards when Gabe Newell said the same damn thing. I don't get it. I guess if it's Valve, it must be a message from the gods or something.

Imagine if someone from EA had said it. Everyone would be championing Windows 8.

jollybarracuda:Wait wait. People are calling this guy dumb for saying this? People were practically making flags and waving them out in their yards when Gabe Newell said the same damn thing. I don't get it. I guess if it's Valve, it must be a message from the gods or something.

Imagine if someone from EA had said it. Everyone would be championing Windows 8.

Well there is absolutely no reason to switch to Win8 anyway. I don't need that system and I don't want it.

In addition people should start thinking about the follow versions of Win8. This is what the guy warns about. If you're suddenly unable to play your steam games on Window 9 or if you're unable to install anything but MS certified software what are you going to do then?

In that case you could throw out all of your game classics like C&C, Starcraft, Civilization and so on...

Nocturnus:All of the freakout against Windows 8 and the Store is nothing short of pure speculation. Slippery slope at its best.

Windows 8 works great with everything that i've run with it.

How about this...

IF Microsoft decides to actually go down the road of self castration, which I doubt will happen... THEN we can respond accordingly and abandon ship from the operating system.

Until then? Let's stop with the conspiracy theories. Because that's all stuff like this is... panic associated with something that hasn't happened yet and likely won't happen at all.

Unfortunately Microsoft has tried to shut out competition before, it isn't like Valve and "they are a monopoly and could do evil things!" Microsoft HAS done anti-competitive practices and was hit with multiple court cases which found them guilty of antitrust and competition law.

So yes people are panicking over something Microsoft might do, its just that Microsoft has a history of doing such acts.

My problem with Win 8 is still how the tiles were made for touch and I still use a keyboard and mouse. Tiles are still usable, but they take up so much room and look incredible ugly to my aesthetic preferences. Plus, after using Xbox for over a year now and seeing the dashboard constantly made worst, I'm going to watch and see how M$ handles this dashboard for a year or two (mostly listen for how many adds appear on the start screen if any).

I tend to agree with the concern, people, especially gamers, tend to be very short sighted and don't look to the future. Think about how people embraced digital DLC and microtransactions, they got in the door, and now we're knee deep in rage over how these systems are abused (day 1 DLC, games being released with as much content trimmed as possible to sell it seperatly, etc...).

Right now everyone wants a slice of that sweet digital distribution pie, we have pretty much every company trying to open their own store to sell their products exclusively, on their terms, through their service, while a few like STEAM try and be as universal as possible.

Microsoft's idea seems to be gradually working up towards trying to force digital distribution platforms to pay them a fee for a liscence to have their programs work on Windows. The idea being that for you to run a game through Steam, Steam would have to pay Microsoft a cut.

The end result of this would be raising the price of games, as Steam and other services would have to raise their prices to cover the cost, or find other ways of passing the expense on, since it's doubtful they are just going to eat the loss. Microsoft is also doubtlessly going to push as hard as they can.

The issue of course here is "what can be done about it?", and I think that's the bottom line behind a lot of people's comments. Simply put your alternative would be to go to an alternative operating system (all of which have their fans), that's kind of a pain in the arse given that PCs come pre-loaded with Windows, and most computer users are already familiar with it. I doubt your average PC user even knows how to set up and use an alternate OS.

At any rate, it's something to keep an eye on, nothing has happened yet (as those playing games on Windows 8 apparently can attest) but guys like Gabe Newell don't seem to go running around screaming "the sky is falling" at the slighest drop of a hat, so it's worth paying attention to. I give his name a degree of credit, not just beause of his gaming chops, but because he seems to do a lot of experimenting with tech and such as well. With no offense intended I don't take Notch or the guy who did "Serious Sam" quite as seriously. Maybe I should, but Notch creating one truely epic game (so far) doesn't make him as worthy of respect to me as Gabe. That isn't to say I don't respect him, I just don't consider him in the same league for either tech or business at the moment. I'm not a huge fan of Valve's games, but I do tend to pay attention when The God-Emperor Of Steam says something, even when I don't care for it.

windows 8 will work on touchscreen mobile phones. it is useless for anything else. and touch monitors while its interesting id rather wait for touchable projections because i really dont want to leave fingerprints all over my screen. not to mention how the people who use large hanging tvs isntead of monitors should feel...

AFAIK, Win8 apps using the "used-to-be-Metro-now-it's-Windows-RT" interface can only be installed via the MS AppStore, on any device, including the PC. On the PC, we can install/run any desktop app; on any other devices, we can't.

As for the future, I don't really care. If MS locks down Windows, either someone will figure out how to unlock it, or I'll complete my move to Linux.

MS ditching the classic WinAPI, for the new WinRT API, in a similar vein to the move away from DOS? I won't like it, but I believe that will happen. MS locking down the Windows desktop (i.e., allowing only installations through the MS AppStore) on all editions, except Enterprise? It's not impossible, but I only see a chance for that if the home PC becomes a residual source of income for MS.

This is going to spoil the hate party..PHA+PGltZyBzcmM9Imh0dHA6Ly9kbC5kcm9wYm94LmNvbS91Lzc4NTUwOTA4L1NjcmVlbnNob3QyLmpwZyIgYWx0PSJpbWFnZSIvPjxiciAvPkFzIHlvdSBjYW4gc2VlIEkgaGF2ZSBTdGVhbSwgT3JpZ2luLCBTcG90aWZ5LCBJdHVuZXMsIHVUb3JyZW50IGFuZCB0aGUgZW50aXJlIExpYnJlIE9mZmljZSBzdWl0ZS4gQWxsIG9mIHRoZXNlIGFyZSBub24tY2VydGlmaWVkIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyBzaXR0aW5nIGhhcHBpbHkgb24gbXkgU3RhcnQgc2NyZWVuLjwvcD4=

Microsoft have their store to host WinRT apps that follow their design language and technical requirements in order to provide a consistent experience for specific devices. They also want the interface to be unified across all devices to help with having a consistent experience. The Microsoft store allows the same apps to be available on multiple platforms therefore helping the unified interface succeed. The open nature on Windows 8 is still there. It just has an additional environment alongside it.

By Tiled Apps it means actual metro[1] apps[2] need certification in order to run on win8 not that normal programs will not work on win8 without certification. For example if Origin, Itunes or whatever wanted to make a metro app for Win8 it would need certification from Microsoft for it to be available to use. In other words no metro app can be made without Microsoft's approval. While Win8 is not a completely closed garden, developers are worried that this is the thin edge of the wedge that will mark a drastic change in the openness of the pc platform with future MS operating systems. They are worried that MS in the future will say 'We're going completely metro, either your software is certified to run on metro or it won't run at all' allowing them complete control of what choice users have to use software wise. In other words the additional environment may become the only environment.

[1] I know its not called metro anymore, its just easier to call it that

[2] Those double tiled icons that have the live displays and all that jazz

I'll get Windows 8 but I will do so in caution. If they do go down the Walled Garden route of Apple they can fuck right off and I'll change to Linux. It isn't like I don't already use Linux for some stuff already anyway. Given Microsoft's history I will be keeping a close eye on them and how they go about this.

I'm waiting out windows 8 and probably going to pick up 9 instead, sticking with 7 until then. Why? Because Microsoft has an ugly habit of releasing like this: Good OS (XP), bad OS(Vista), good OS(7), bad OS(likely to be 8).

Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.

Have these developers even really done any research? Are they really that mad that not having access to the app store is going to ruin their day? I mean, it forces you to install games just like you would on any other windows os! HORRIBLE.

Not to mention that you can again pin it to the start program so that way when the computer starts up you can instantly jump to it.

I have all of my games on tiles. Even Fighting is Magic. Seriously windows 8 isn't bad at all. I love it and I find nothing wrong so far

The issue developers seem to be having is with certification. I personally dont know what about the W8 certification has them in an uproar like this, but if it goes along the tune of what we hear about XBL certification then its going to become a very big problem for developers in very short order.

Though as i say, i only hear of theese problems, and have yet to confirm any.

Win8 certification is not required to release a program for Win8 anyway, it wasn't required for Win7, it's more for business appplications guaranteeing support for that OS (it's complicated)

Also at this point:

"You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!"

I stopped reading there, and I feel ashamed that someone who should really know his stuff seems to have blatantly ignored the facts.

I like how Microsoft is getting shit for doing what Apple has been doing on iOS since the first iPhone. They even dictate what programming language you can use.

Right now I use Windows 8 and it works fine. Steam works, all my software works, I only went to the Windows Store to download Minesweeper (I like that game, okay?) and the OS didn't punch me in the face.

It sounds like this guy is jumping on the bandwagon. I understand that people fear change and removing the Start Menu they know for 15 years or more is a Big Thing, but people seem to complain even before they spent one day using it.

There are other problems, which are more to the point, like how Chrome will open a different session whether you open it from the Desktop or the (not-)Metro home screen.

Stop ripping off Apple - This "Windows iOS" spunk-baby is an abomination and needs to be dropped.

Stop being Nazis - Everywhere I look, every big corporation is pulling one should-be-illegal trick or another to lock down software/hardware/whatever just to continue milking ignorant consumers of their money.

Nocturnus:All of the freakout against Windows 8 and the Store is nothing short of pure speculation. Slippery slope at its best.

Windows 8 works great with everything that i've run with it.

How about this...

IF Microsoft decides to actually go down the road of self castration, which I doubt will happen... THEN we can respond accordingly and abandon ship from the operating system.

Until then? Let's stop with the conspiracy theories. Because that's all stuff like this is... panic associated with something that hasn't happened yet and likely won't happen at all.

Unfortunately Microsoft has tried to shut out competition before, it isn't like Valve and "they are a monopoly and could do evil things!" Microsoft HAS done anti-competitive practices and was hit with multiple court cases which found them guilty of antitrust and competition law.

So yes people are panicking over something Microsoft might do, its just that Microsoft has a history of doing such acts.

Because such henious acts such as bundling their own software with their OS is such a bad omen.

The internets favourite evil lords of locking down Apple have a store for a couple of versions now, adn lets looks at the number of programs I have not from the store, got bored counting when i hit 30, lets look at ones from the store about 10-12, 8 of which are apples own and of those 6 5 were pre-installed.

THeres no credible indication that MS would be foolish enough to acually ban non store apps.

Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.

You know what i could do with windows 95? all the same you mentioned.

Windows 8 is an attempt to copy IOS, the worst OS for general usage.

Have you even tried it? It runs nothing like iOS. I actually love it very much and it is fairly unique in its design. It takes a second or two to get a hang of, but once you do it works really well.

Honestly, I don't think I could go back to 7. It is really a solid operating system.

Windows 8 is fast to run. I can any game better than I could on 7. There are things that make my life easier and I love the app stuff. The skype/windows messanger app is a real life saver and the ability to split the screen is wonderful for my laptop. the search actually works unlike other version of windows.

I am able to multitask much better than I used to be able to. This makes me faster to respond to people on skype without sitting there waiting for the next reply when it is open. I can quickly switch to an app that i want in less than a second. It comes from sleep mode extremely quickly and is faster to do a cold boot. I love being able to play shadowrun and not have to switch all the time from skype to the pdf.

It is extremely easy and intuitive to hook up devices to it, especially second screens. Smartglass is a pretty neat thing for me to be able to stream my videos to the tv or control netflix from afar.

Saying it is like iOS is just looking at the start screen and not actually using it. When you are on the desktop, it performs very similarly to 7. When you are in a fullscreen program, none of the little switch things trigger so you don't have to worry about accidentally switching out of your game.

I have way less clutter on my desktop and I am far more organized. There is a lot of hate for the OS, but i don't feel that much of it is justified personally

What's the betting the next generation of Windows, let's call it 9 for arguments sake, will come in two major versions:

Win9 "Home" which is basically the metro interface, totally locked into MS's store (Windows RT for the Desktop.)Win9 "Professional" which is what we see now with Windows 8, Metro interface with legacy desktop mode.

Let's imagine Johnny consumer goes down to his local store to buy his kid one of those newfangled computermodongles for little Johnny Junior. On offer are the touchscreen enabled Win9 Home powered Microbox for $399, and the non touchscreen Win9 Professional powered Uberbox for $599.

Little Johnny Junior is going to be locked into Microsoft's walled garden, and won't have the joy of buying a program without microsoft getting it's greedy little paws on his pocket money.

At the same time Microsoft get's to claim it's still an open platform, and we are all using the Professional version (or Win7/Linux) and aren't affected. Oh, till developers find it's impossible to sell any big name games on the PC, without going though the MS store, since all the new generation of PC gamers are, like little Johnny Junior, locked into Microsoft's store.

I stuck with XP 'til it was inarguably proven to me that W7 was better, and I plan to do the same thing again. Until there is an OS that is better in every way, I'm sticking with what I know works, and that I know how it works. I'm all for experimentation, and I'm usually an early adopter of innovation, but when it comes to my OS; I'll stick with the familiar.

Nocturnus:All of the freakout against Windows 8 and the Store is nothing short of pure speculation. Slippery slope at its best.

Windows 8 works great with everything that i've run with it.

How about this...

IF Microsoft decides to actually go down the road of self castration, which I doubt will happen... THEN we can respond accordingly and abandon ship from the operating system.

Until then? Let's stop with the conspiracy theories. Because that's all stuff like this is... panic associated with something that hasn't happened yet and likely won't happen at all.

Mainly because at that point its too late.

There is a clear and present danger in what MS can do the seeds for it are in Win 8 now. thats not speculation or fear mongering its simple fact. if its not likely to happen why are they moving in that direction?

If steps are not taken now we will be stuck without the option to abandon they are a monopoly it will take time to get an option in play.

Anyone old enough to remember when IBM pc compatible was the normal language before PC meant windows will remember the shit that MS pulled to get that change. when a animal bites you its hard to offer your hand a second/1ooo th time.

I mean its not like MS has a good reputation , they stole everything they are famous for and have used about the most brutal under handed tactics you can to put competitors out of business before.

I simply cant understand why people are even considering MS has anything other than squeeseing us for every penny it can as its motivation. they have sat back and watched a ton of people make millions in part using thier OS and they didnt get a cut. i can see why they want to certify and charge for everything.

Baldr:He Anti-Win8 because something Microsoft could, but most likely will never do in the future? Really not because the OS itself?

People hate on Steam for less.

Also, yes, Windows 8 supports desktop UI apps pretty close to seamlessly, but tiled UI apps have those restrictions, and Microsoft has had something of a trend of using "Embrace. Extend. Extinguish." as a tactic of choice.

There are many flaws with the European Union, but here is one thing they really shine at. Microsoft is too big to ever be allowed to lock down their OS in such a way that you require certification to release programs on it. If the EU doesn't allow them to pack their own web browser with their own OS, they are not going to allow them to charge a certification fee. At least not on the PC. And Microsoft can't afford to lose the EU userbase so they'll comply.

It's all chill dudes.

And that's assuming they even want to lock it down. A far more likely scenario to me is they simply want greater integration between all windows devices. The os on a windows tablet and windows on a pc is supossed to feel like the same thing.

And as Ladavac made clear, the problem isn't what Windows 8 is doing right now - it's what it or some successor might do in the future if Microsoft continues moving toward the "walled garden." Everyone calling him an idiot would do well to remember that he's not some random crank, and he's not alone.

Developers have every right to be concerned about the Windows Store. But Microsoft would be foolish to have that be the only way to get programs, as it would remove their main customer base of the business and enterprise world, who need the desktop portion of Windows to function. You can't really multitask with only two apps on screen at one time. So, I'm not calling Ladavac an idiot, and he has every right to be concerned, but I feel that the developers are fearing over nothing. Microsoft can not afford to go the way of Apple.

I mean its not like MS has a good reputation , they stole everything they are famous for and have used about the most brutal under handed tactics you can to put competitors out of business before.

By that logic any sort of creativity is stealing. You can't really have an original idea nowadays without it sounding kind of like an idea that's already been put forth. Technically, Google Docs was 'stolen' from Microsoft Office. They didn't steal everything they are famous for.

Anyone old enough to remember when IBM pc compatible was the normal language before PC meant windows will remember the shit that MS pulled to get that change. when a animal bites you its hard to offer your hand a second/1ooo th time.

taciturnCandid:Oh hey. Guess what my windows 8 does. It runs any game. Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.

Have these developers even really done any research?

Did you even read the article at all?

You being able to run Win32 games and apps in Windows 8 is about as relevant as you being able to run MS-DOS games in Win95. You certainly could do that, but it was in no way a guarantee that Microsoft will officially support running of MS-DOS apps/games in all their future OSes. And they did eventually drop that, in Win2000/XP.

To make this analogy more relevant to this case, it would have been similar if the only way for you to install any Win32 apps, even freeware, in Windows 95 (and 98, and ME etc.) would have been through an official MS Windows Store. If someone had complained back then of MS locking down the system to a walled garden, would your answer to those concerns been "What are you complaining about??? You can still run MS-DOS, and even Win16, apps and games in Windows 95! So Microsoft has done nothing to restrict anyone!".

It wouldn't have needed a rocket-scientist to figure out the perils of such move. And exactly the same applies in this case, unless you really believe the only reason for the existence of WinRT in Windows 8 is to run simplistic mobile apps like Angry Birds, and never extend to "real" games and applications. Yeah right.

I mean its not like MS has a good reputation , they stole everything they are famous for and have used about the most brutal under handed tactics you can to put competitors out of business before.

By that logic any sort of creativity is stealing. You can't really have an original idea nowadays without it sounding kind of like an idea that's already been put forth. Technically, Google Docs was 'stolen' from Microsoft Office. They didn't steal everything they are famous for.

Anyone old enough to remember when IBM pc compatible was the normal language before PC meant windows will remember the shit that MS pulled to get that change. when a animal bites you its hard to offer your hand a second/1ooo th time.

I'm sorry, could you please explain this a little more to me?

no sorry i wasnt clear i wasnt referring to the normal interaction of inspiration where you can trace the origins of some creative spark back through the generations i meant actual up front theft, actual kicking down the door picking up your TV and claiming it is yours then suing me for slander.

3 years before MS invented the windows system i was using my Amiga 1200 and its hard wired on chip windowed operating system. Bill not only out right stole it , read that as direct lifting in all of its practical applications with little to no difference, he doesnt have the talent to do it himself and hatchets the guy he gets to do the dirty work then sues the victims for getting thier blood splattered all over him.

And no if you dont hate MS you werent there and you simply wont believe anything i say because it reads like fiction do your own research here, id start googling MS famous and lawsuits or MS legal division. should get pages of entertaining stuff .

SupahGamuh:I still don't get it... personally, I haven't used Win 8 and I'm really not interested in doing so, but my friend tells me that he can install and run each and every single game he has, Steam or not, so... I'm seriously confused, what's the big deal?, is it really necessary to go through the Windows Store to make any software for it?, can't I just install anythin I want and call it a day?, can't anyone just keep making software for Win 7 and add compatibility to Win 8 and bypass their store?...

So many questions and I'm still pretty confused...

Yes you can still install and use legacy Win7/XP desktop software in Win8. Just like you could still run MS-DOS and Win16 games and apps in Windows 95. But can you still in Win9? Win10? You couldn't officially run MS-DOS games anymore in Windows XP.

None of this would really matter if only Microsoft allowed the Win8 users to install WinRT software irrespective of their own Windows Store. Ask yourself this: why is Microsoft blocking the competition out in WinRT? It has nothing to do with the need to make sure the WinRT ("Metro") apps are compatible with different architectures or have no bugs, because Microsoft could still do that certification for all Windows Store apps and games, even if at the same time they allowed the users also install WinRT apps that have not originated from the Windows Store.

This move is nothing but the first step from Microsoft introducing the XBox console model to PC world, ie. everything you ever install to your PC, will have to go through Microsoft.

Furism:I like how Microsoft is getting shit for doing what Apple has been doing on iOS since the first iPhone. They even dictate what programming language you can use.

Right now I use Windows 8 and it works fine. Steam works, all my software works, I only went to the Windows Store to download Minesweeper (I like that game, okay?) and the OS didn't punch me in the face.

It sounds like this guy is jumping on the bandwagon. I understand that people fear change and removing the Start Menu they know for 15 years or more is a Big Thing, but people seem to complain even before they spent one day using it.

There are other problems, which are more to the point, like how Chrome will open a different session whether you open it from the Desktop or the (not-)Metro home screen.

In addition people should start thinking about the follow versions of Win8. This is what the guy warns about. If you're suddenly unable to play your steam games on Window 9 or if you're unable to install anything but MS certified software what are you going to do then?

In that case you could throw out all of your game classics like C&C, Starcraft, Civilization and so on...

Microsoft dropping legacy support away at some point is not the issue at all. You couldn't officially run most of MS-DOS games anymore in Win2000/XP, or you can't run 16bit Windows apps in 64bit Vistas or Win7s either. That was just to be expected, MS or any company for that matter will offer backwards compatibility only to an extent.

But the only real issue is indeed that this could quite well be the first step for MS to make Windows a walled garden where everything, even freeware, has to go through Microsoft. There are absolutely no other reasons for locking down Windows like this other than Microsoft wanting a cut of every application or game purchase in Windows platforms just like Apple is making loads of money in iOS, and secondary reason maybe being to thwart piracy somewhat.

You can also kiss goodbye in the future for new inventions similar to ScummVM, DOSBox etc. There's no chance Microsoft would allow such "rogue" software to be invented and released in their system even as freeware, which lets people play their old games in unofficial ways, without paying again for remakes and HD versions of old games.