I am a bit curious about the purpose of this dungeon overall as it seems out of place. Don't get me wrong, more dungeons = happiness but this dungeon seems the most peculiar so far in terms of when it is unlocked vs the content it contains.

From the flavor text of the dungeon as well as the first quest into this dungeon it sounds like it wants to be the character's first introduction to dungeons with two bosses, it also doesn't seem to have any other special mechanics besides this, and is probably the easiest "hard" dungeon I have faced. However there is a normal dungeon unlocked WAY earlier that does this, and I'm pretty sure EVERY hard dungeon has 2 bosses already (sometimes 3) and it would be surprising if Doubledoom was the first hard dungeon adventurers encountered.I can't imagine many people grinding the Den of Danger with all twelve characters (including unlocking them) before even trying some of the other hard dungeons.That said it is nice to have a dungeon where you face two random bosses, but to fit in it's role it would seem like it wants to be unlocked much earlier.

I don't expect everyone to take the same route I took to unlocking things, but at the point I was in the game when I decided to finish the Den of Danger quests I would have expected to unlock a "Triple Trouble" or a "Quadruple Quandary" more than a Double Doom.

If i remember correctly the Northern Desert had not always two bosses. And i think in the present state, only the Tower of Goo is a full-fledged boss. The mage seems to have way lower HP as he would have as a random boss.

For unlocking stuff:I think i first unlocked all classes and some of the items (silver challenges) before i tackeled the hard dungeons. Another think i made quite different from you is that i rarely used bet-on-boss (most of the time i used the 'more money'-thingy). So i needed some more grinding.

I still feel like doubledoom is meant to be "baby's first hard dungeon" (and I mean that not at all negatively) And even if you did grind more before going after hard dungeons than I did, I suspect that you unlocked the hard dungeons in the four (or at least 2 or 3 of them) directions before doubledoom.

IDK, later when I have done lots and lots with this game I think doubledoom will always be a fun dungeon to go to because of the completely random bosses, and at current it is a good level of challenge. I'm pretty sure I will beat it 90% of the time, but I have to engage and think to do so, and I often find myself enjoying that kind of challenge. For me it just seemed to unlock at a very strange time :/For me it unlocks along with the likes of Ick Swamp which seems very difficult indeed, and Rock Garden (which has 3 bosses 2 of them with opposing resistances)

I've mentioned this on several occasions - also linked to the hero's helm unlock.

I distinctly remember having trouble finding the Hero's helm unlock on a playthrough while I was very deep into the game (possibly even after I've beaten GT) - I had completely forgotten Doubledoom exists at all!

This can (or could?) happen to anyone who goes for exploring dungeons instead of grinding the same one early. Also to anyone doing quests with the prefference of seeing different dungeons instead of going for the same ones, etc. Doubledoom is just obscure. If the playstyle can be chalked off to "well you're just one guy", i'd say anyone who's struggling and is happy when he gets comfortable with a class or two is going to go exploring with the classess he is comfortable with first rather than trying to figure new ones out. So I think it's a legit perspective.

Another problem is, if the unlock wasn't changed, that Hero's Helm is one of the last "shop clogger" items at the time you unlock it because (if I remember correctly):

1) If it were available early it would be a great item, but since it is really easy to unlock it way too late it's ussually prime veto slot material. It costs 18 gold, and there's tons of other stuff with better cost-to-effect ratios out there. I'm not an efficcency-veto-nazi kind of guy, yet I consistently can't justify picking it up from a shop once my item pool moves beyond basic items... And it's a bit difficult to unlock it at a good time (iow as your first item unlock) because...2) The ammount of kingdom gold it takes you to unlock it is pretty huge - you need to max out your building unlocks to get to the Hero's Helm, while you can get Crystal Ball (and all sorts of other stuff) for a much, much lower investment. When you put it into numbers it's really strange - you can unlock the entire elite items array for less gold (i think), and get any class challenge quest item for the price of one, two or three buildings and two runs (bronze and silver challenge). You can get gamechanging stuff for just one puzzle pack (wards), you can get a bunch of stuff for 3 runs and 3 buildings... but the Hero's Helm "costs" you... 16 runs and all class building upgrades?

Srry about disjointedness, I can shorten it if anyone wants... Been bugging me for the longest time that one... And I like doubledoom quite a bit as a dungeon, but it's unlock and quest-chain-and-map-placement all that has never worked out for me (same with Grimms Grotto). It just wasn't there when it needed to be "my first hard dungeon", so I always sort of saw it and Grimm's as post game content (as in litterally it appeared on the map for me after completing the game and looking to mop up remaining quests)

In contrast I would say that the Hero's Helm unlocked in a very timely fashion for me. I now look at it, elvish boots, the crystal ball, and the fine sword when I am deciding what to take with me. The decision is actually usually a rather close one.

I've been playing a new kingdom and just unlocked both Doubledoom & Heros Helm. So far I've been keeping local on adventuring (have only done 1 hard dungeon so far- Havingdale Bridge) although all 4 directional Hards are unlocked.I think it was well timed for me, Baby's first Hard & Heros Helm looks pretty good in locker right now, but I've been purposely baby stepping my way though this one to see how it goes.

If i remember correctly the Northern Desert had not always two bosses.

Indeed, this is a very recent change.

Double-Doom is one of the few dungeons to have survived the "hedge-clippers" that removed the superfluous dungeons. There used to be several others like it that were somewhat out of place; they got the axe, but this one survived.

The Avatar wrote:Yeah, it is very rare that you will ever have doubledoom as your first hard dungeon.

Indeed but only if you play a certain way (playing it any other way never occured to me in practice, but it seems to be what the dev's intended). However, since it's a legit way to play, maybe Doubledoom should start unlocked, or unlock easier?

In any case, Hero's Helm might be behind a too high "grind wall". IS, not "might be".