I agree. If we're going to be fair and want to push the technical aspect forward, boosting the value of 3/3's will go a longer way than boosting the already highly valued 3Axel, which as of now benefits only one female skater. On the other hand, more than a handful of girls can do 3/3's, even difficult ones like 3Lz+3T.

I think this supports the argument that the triple axel is much more difficult than the tripe-triple combination.

...
You really have nothing more to say- why don't you write the ISU why they were wrong in not allowing that 3a back in 2008, gee I guess they will listen to you since you believe it was all so unfair back then. I guess they know nothing about requirements, but you do.
Have some cheese with your whine, now will you?

I don't need to write the ISU because they already realized their mistake.

Originally Posted by Mathman

The IJS seems to feel that adding an extra revolution approximately triples the difficulty. So, all things being equal, an extra half revolution should be multiplied by 1.73. (The square root of 3. One extra revolution = two half-revolutions, 3 = 1.73x1.73.)

Multiplying the base value for a double Axel by 1.73 gives 5.7 for the scaled base value for a two-and-a-half Axel, which would be the same number of revolutions as a normal triple jump. So applying the difficulty-per–three-revolution standard puts the Axel, at 5.7, halfway between the flip, 5.3, and the Lutz, 6.0, in terms of the intrinsic difficulty of the take-off edge.

An interesting point about the exponential increase in jump values. I suppose that would mean an underrotated jump should receive only 1/1.732 of the value, or ~58%. In other words, the people complaining that 70% for underrotations is too high have a good reason.

Originally Posted by prettykeys

That's really fascinating. But some values would have to be jiggled around a bit to fit into that framework...

LTN = "lower than now"
HTN = "higher than now"

...

When Kristi was competing against Midori, the 3Lz+3T was regarded as her way of challenging Midori's 3A, although certainly the 3A among ladies is much rarer...

I think that is a very good way to fairly decide the proper BV of jumps, but I question the wisdom of starting from singles. Everything is rounded to the nearest tenth and even for doubles, T=S and Lo=F. I'd say fix the values for doubles, then divide/multiply by 3 to get all the proper point values for singles/triples.

That's really fascinating. But some values would have to be jiggled around a bit to fit into that framework...

LTN = "lower than now"
HTN = "higher than now"

1T = 0.4, 2T should be 1.2 (LTN vs. 1.4), 3T should be 3.6 (LTN vs. 4.1), 4T and 4S should be 10.8 (slightly HTN of 10.3 and 10.5)
1F = 0.5, 2F should be 1.5 (LTN vs. 1.8), and 3F should be 4.5 (LTN vs. 5.3). 3Lo would also be 4.5 by this reasoning (LTN of 5.1)

3Lz+3T would be...9.6. Very close to theoretical 3A value of 9.9. When Kristi was competing against Midori, the 3Lz+3T was regarded as her way of challenging Midori's 3A, although certainly the 3A among ladies is much rarer...

I really don't care if jump points are upgraded or not, but if they are, I'm not sure that there should be an increase in difference of value between lutz and flip. Someone mentioned on the 4CC thread that there were 10 lip calls versus, I forgot, something like 3 or 5 flutz calls in the men's competition. I guess the poster was questioning why there were more lip calls than flutz calls when flips are meant to be easier than lutzes. That's a question I'd like an answer to too. I know that rotation-wise, lutzes require more than flips, but are they so much more difficult than flips to warrant it to be scaled higher in relation to flips and loops than it is now? It seems to me that most skaters (even men) who can lutz can't flip, and vice versa.

I think it is a legitimate question to ask, just how many base points is enough for female skaters to try and train for the 3-axel under CoP? Because, since we haven't seen any female skater besides Mao put it in competition, it could be that 8.5 just isn't high enough.

I don't think the reason that more women aren't doing triple axels is because it isn't worth enough points. I think the reason is that they can't do it, no matter how hard they try.

And the harder they try, the more likely they are to get injured and lose the ability to do some of the other triples, temporarily or permanently, with the same quality or consistency, that they have been doing already.

I.e., I think if you make the value of a triple axel so high that every girl with a triple lutz and a good double axel will devote herself to learning it, we're going to see a lot more broken girls and we will not see greatly increased jump content.

Quite likely decreased jump content, because the injured ones will either scale back their jump content until they're fully recovered, or they won't be able to compete at all and the next-best skaters who take their places will be weaker jumpers to begin with.

Originally Posted by CarneAsada

So you don't think that Mao was being limited when in her SP she could have attempted 3A, 3F-3Lo and 3Lz back in 2008 if the rules hadn't required a double axel.

She could have done 3F-3Lo, 3A preceded by steps, and 2A. That would still give her an advantage in base mark over what anyone else was doing jumpwise.

I don't think the reason that more women aren't doing triple axels is because it isn't worth enough points. I think the reason is that they can't do it, no matter how hard they try.

And the harder they try, the more likely they are to get injured and lose the ability to do some of the other triples, temporarily or permanently, with the same quality or consistency, that they have been doing already.

I.e., I think if you make the value of a triple axel so high that every girl with a triple lutz and a good double axel will devote herself to learning it, we're going to see a lot more broken girls and we will not see greatly increased jump content.

Quite likely decreased jump content, because the injured ones will either scale back their jump content until they're fully recovered, or they won't be able to compete at all and the next-best skaters who take their places will be weaker jumpers to begin with.

She could have done 3F-3Lo, 3A preceded by steps, and 2A. That would still give her an advantage in base mark over what anyone else was doing jumpwise.

I have to agree that being incapable of doing the triple axel is probably the main reason, not a lack of incentive. Or if it's a lack of incentive, it's not just the axel, it's the other more difficult triples too.

But your other point doesn't really address the argument I was making. We can discuss potential vintage Mao Asada SP layouts all day, but it doesn't change the fact that even if she could've gained a BV advantage without the SP axel rule change, it would not have been as big an advantage as she would've had with it, and moreover, the advantage would have come with unnecessary strings attached (requiring a combination or requiring steps).

I really don't care if jump points are upgraded or not, but if they are, I'm not sure that there should be an increase in difference of value between lutz and flip. Someone mentioned on the 4CC thread that there were 10 lip calls versus, I forgot, something like 3 or 5 flutz calls in the men's competition. I guess the poster was questioning why there were more lip calls than flutz calls when flips are meant to be easier than lutzes. That's a question I'd like an answer to too. I know that rotation-wise, lutzes require more than flips, but are they so much more difficult than flips to warrant it to be scaled higher in relation to flips and loops than it is now? It seems to me that most skaters (even men) who can lutz can't flip, and vice versa.

I mentioned it and there were 10 lips and 3 flutzes. Here's an explanation given by SkateNater that I found to be extremely helpful

"They're the same jump except the take-off edge, and most men are stronger than women so they don't tend to have issues with the lutz so much. Rolling the edge on the flip can prevent you from overrotating the flip as it blocks the take-off just a little. However, for women they typically can do flips more easily due to the take-off being less blocked than a lutz, and the fact that their legs aren't as strong. So, they may do good flip take-offs, but turn the lutz into a flip to make it easier.

Most women don't jump like Ito, Slutskaya, Bonaly, or Kim. But lots of men can get that high so the harder jumps may be easy while the easier ones can sometimes be a bit too easy. Their bodies counter this by making the flip harder, while most women will counter that by making the lutz easier.

It's a muscle memory issue, really. Sometimes you can consciously train to take off the wrong edge. Sometimes the body has to go back to square one and train the jumps up from the beginning to relearn the right take-off (I think that's what Joannie Rochette had to do, the latter).

Another thing that has led to a lot of edge calls on both Lutz and Flip is the obsession with taking shorter take-offs into them out of steps. IRT the flip, a lot of people have too straight a take-off, so they can never really get on a secure inside edge and that straight line gives their edge a high probability of rolling over to an outside edge when they try to apply edge pressure to the skating foot."

Given this explanation I woudn't say that flip is as difficult as lutz, it's just that some man have a bit wrong technique if they can't hold on to an inside edge when skating with a lot of speed and jumping flip.

So as most of the posters said, base value for the 3A is just correct. In general I don't have any problems with BVs for jumps. The only thing I would change is rewarding more combinations. Let's say multiply by 1.1 the base value of all combinations. Seems quite fair.

So as most of the posters said, base value for the 3A is just correct. In general I don't have any problems with BVs for jumps. The only thing I would change is rewarding more combinations. Let's say multiply by 1.1 the base value of all combinations. Seems quite fair.

An interesting point about the exponential increase in jump values. I suppose that would mean an underrotated jump should receive only 1/1.732 of the value, or ~58%. In other words, the people complaining that 70% for underrotations is too high have a good reason.

Ahhh...I like this idea.

Originally Posted by CarneAsada

I think that is a very good way to fairly decide the proper BV of jumps, but I question the wisdom of starting from singles. Everything is rounded to the nearest tenth and even for doubles, T=S and Lo=F. I'd say fix the values for doubles, then divide/multiply by 3 to get all the proper point values for singles/triples.

Um, if we're not going to start from singles then why start at doubles? Any particularly good reason? Might as well set the standards at the Triple Jumps since they form the CORE of the senior technical skating (for both the Men and Women) and then adjust the rest of the values relative to the Triples. Which then renders this intellectual exercise redundant.

Personally, I like the idea of raising 3A to 9.9 points and readjusting the 3T, 3F and 3Lo lower. And throwing in a combination-jump bonus as well as a complete-set bonus (Axel, Lutz, flip, loop, Salchow, toeloop. Note I didn't specify they must be triples.)

Originally Posted by hurrah

It seems to me that most skaters (even men) who can lutz can't flip, and vice versa.

Your perception is wrong. Most men (and women) who can do Lutzes can also do Flips, but accidentally Lip from time to time, perhaps for the reasons that Cherry offered above. Whereas skaters who Flutz rarely (if ever???) accidentally manage to do correct Lutzes.

Setting aside – um – all this -- the question that we should be debating is, just how hard is the Axel jump anyway, compared to other take-offs?

The IJS seems to feel that adding an extra revolution approximately triples the difficulty. So, all things being equal, an extra half revolution should be multiplied by 1.73. (The square root of 3. One extra revolution = two half-revolutions, 3 = 1.73x1.73.)

Multiplying the base value for a double Axel by 1.73 gives 5.7 for the scaled base value for a two-and-a-half Axel, which would be the same number of revolutions as a normal triple jump. So applying the difficulty-per–three-revolution standard puts the Axel, at 5.7, halfway between the flip, 5.3, and the Lutz, 6.0, in terms of the intrinsic difficulty of the take-off edge.

This is what I admire about the CoP. This kind of objective analysis would not have been possible under earlier judging systems.

Except it is not really objective is it?

On what scientific basis did they come up with 1A = .8 , 2A = 3.5 etc? In sport, shouldn't a performance bell curve featured somewhere? Just because you can run 100 meters in 10 seconds doesn't mean 1000 meters can be done in 100 meters and so on. Why isn't rarity, perfection being adequately marked? If penalties are reduced for UR, and edge calls are hardly penalized, then why isn't perfection being rewarded more?

Is a perfect 3Lz roughly = approx 70% 3A adequate? Just because one is incapable of doing a clean 3Lz, to get away by only doing UR 3A just to get approx same point should not be considered as cheating?

The biggest fallacy of COP is that somehow numbers can be good indicator of performance when the systems suffers from all sort of kinks and manipulation due to human factors. I don't understand why no computation or real statistics are accumulated to help assessment. The fact there are no correlation or re calibration process from one competition to the next makes it a ridiculous system not to be trusted. And why the sport will only favour skaters with more home events and remain an imbalanced level playing field where 4CC = 2CC, where world championship = 4 nations + guests.

(Argh.. too much random thinking on Chinese New Year day, i am off to dinner)

oh yeah and 3A shouldn't increased, because the last time it increased, it hasn't made the ladies field any better, it has gone worse due to the reduced GOE and change of values for other jumps. A more important thing might be what to do to make the ladies field better. To encourage them to go for the Lutz and difficult combos, and perfect rotated jumps. One way to do that is increase value for the Lutz, the difficult combos, reduce value for the 3Ts / 2T etc. I personally would like to see as many 2A be allowed reintroduced again, after all this is suppose to be a free program and those who propose all skaters should be able to do what they are capable of doing should have no problem with this.