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General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Thread to discuss White Wolf's RPG Exalted. Talk about characters, homebrews, recruiting games, theory, why Abyssals suck so much, or where in the South you can get some gems without anyone asking too many questions.Reynard's Sheets:

[Note: Place [A]uspicious and [F]avoured (You get four) tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35, with at least 15 in Auspicious and Favoured.
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)
Caste Requirements:

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The character must have at least Awareness ••, Bureaucracy ••, Linguistics (Old Realm) •, Lore •••, Martial Arts ••, Occult ••, Socialize •, Stealth • and at least one dot in Archery, Melee or Thrown. There are additional restrictions based on caste:

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

From the last thread:

Originally Posted by SurlySeraph

Well, until that loophole is formally closed, we have evidence that Primordials can in fact become immune to their weaknesses.

Well, the thing to remember about the ebon dragon is that his weakness was his own deliberate fault the whole time, given that he literally invented the concept and embodiment of goodness so that he'd have something to pick on.

And possibly because he's incapable of doing anything without stabbing somebody in the back and he considers himself a valid and comical target.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

The Aidenweiss and Should the Sun Not Rise are indeed the examples I had in mind. The fluff is more proof that the Ebon Dragon doesn't know that either of those are options...because the Sun's death is already hypothetical territory. Nothing really changes. Holy no longer works, but Ebsie's Perfect will still fail in the face of functional Holy Charms.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

The Aidenweiss and Should the Sun Not Rise are indeed the examples I had in mind. The fluff is more proof that the Ebon Dragon doesn't know that either of those are options...because the Sun's death is already hypothetical territory. Nothing really changes. Holy no longer works, but Ebsie's Perfect will still fail in the face of functional Holy Charms.

Wait, wait, wait. You're not done dealing out knowledge yet.

Originally Posted by Xefas

Wouldn't they have had to come into existence, as Primordials, with the Essence 10 charm that says "I am a Primordial", though? Which, coincidentally, also invalidates the existence of their mote expander and essence hopper?

I need to know things. I have conjectures. Reveal to me your brain secrets.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Wait... Immunity? Ebbie still suffers from his Greater Imperfection even if Sol is dead. The Yozi are never truly invulnerable. Cecelyne still has that whole "Imperfection against that which strikes the immaterial" thing, you can surprise She Who Lives then gank her, and Malfeas has more than one jouten which is not a city, so all you need to do is Heaven Thunder Hammer the Brass Dancer into Cecelyne and you're good to go (relatively speaking).

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by golentan

Well, the thing to remember about the ebon dragon is that his weakness was his own deliberate fault the whole time, given that he literally invented the concept and embodiment of goodness so that he'd have something to pick on.

And possibly because he's incapable of doing anything without stabbing somebody in the back and he considers himself a valid and comical target.

That's my point, though. Even the Primordial who regularly betrays himself can apparently overcome his weakness, so logically other Primordials can overcome their weaknesses, so a GSP who turns into a Primordial would have some hefty advantages over Exalts who aren't Primordials - and certainly wouldn't make himself weaker by becoming a Primordial. Wasn't that what we were arguing about?

Last edited by SurlySeraph; 2011-01-18 at 08:46 PM.

Originally Posted by Thespianus

I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

The Aidenweiss and Should the Sun Not Rise are indeed the examples I had in mind. The fluff is more proof that the Ebon Dragon doesn't know that either of those are options...because the Sun's death is already hypothetical territory. Nothing really changes. Holy no longer works, but Ebsie's Perfect will still fail in the face of functional Holy Charms.

Also because he has the greater imperfection, meaning anyone who has a single dot of willpower and a single dot of any virtue can force him to hemorrhage motes and/or has free access to perfect defenses against all his attacks.

Whereas a master of Crane Style can freely fold him up, feed him to himself, and pull him out the other end without breaking a sweat. Solo, with no fear of ever being harmed, or any expenditure of motes past their first action so long as they keep stunting.

Seriously, mortals can beat him up. It takes a lot of them, and they can't force him to stay down, but they *can* pound him flat. He's a pathetic, pathetic so and so. God I hate him. Not even the decency to be a terrifying villain.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by golentan

Whereas a master of Crane Style can freely fold him up, feed him to himself, and pull him out the other end without breaking a sweat. Solo, with no fear of ever being harmed, or any expenditure of motes past their first action so long as they keep stunting.

How does that work? It's been a while since I've had a good look at Crane Style.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by Xefas

I need to know things. I have conjectures. Reveal to me your brain secrets.

I have three answers to the problem presented. One of them is absolute tripe (but fun!), one is elegant but completely unsupported by the fluff, and the third is a postulate extracted from what we know. In order:

1) There is no such thing as simultaneous. Events occur, one by one, albeit on an immensely small scale for time. A Primordial is nothing but their Charms, and so for a Primordial to exist, its Charms must exist. This means that there is a moment pre-Primordial wherein its Charms do not exist from a cosmological standpoint. How do we know this is a meaningful description? Solars, mostly, thanks to Primordial Principle Emulation. Say a hypothetical, Great Curse-free, time travelling Solar went all the way back to Time Not. He spends some time learning Primordial Principle Emulation...but it's like inventing the satellite dish when nothing's being broadcast. A moment afterwards...oh, let's say Adrian, the River of All Torments, bursts forth from non-existence. We know she exists; she is a being composed of Charms, and therefore her Charms are now viable options for PPE and our Solar buddy.

What this means for us is that the birth of a Primordial is a single instant--but nothing, as I said, is really simultaneous. Theoretically, a Primordial's existence DEMANDS (Primordial) Cosmic Principle. But learning that requires the purchase of the Primordial's First Excellency in addition to an Essence attribute of 10. We've got a Paradox--can't exist until Cosmic Principle (at least, in the sense of awakening as a full Primordial) and can't learn that without being, in some ways, a being with Attributes and other Charms.

So we have two possibilities: Yozi come into being fully formed, an utter paradox unto themselves OR a Yozi is, in some way, an ascended being who existed in some smaller, non-Primordial state of flux before burning their legend unto the stratas of reality. If they're fully formed...then they're story fiat already, as they lack causation. If they're ascended, even just from something we might call a Proto-mordial, perhaps a knot of Wyld Essence with crude shape and agency akin to a rudimentary raksha, then they could very well have developed Charms before reaching Cosmic Principle-status.

2) The first Green Sun Princes invented them; they've just reached quick saturation. Not terribly useful for the Primordials, but for their servants, highly covetable. This is a stupid answer, because Malfeas' expander is almost certainly the root of his "I have two Fetiches!" tree.

3) They're obsolete but foundational technology. Malfeas wanted two Fetiches, and when he reached into his cosmological principle and pulled out the first step in that, it was a mote expander. It's generally frowned upon for Charms to make earlier purchases obsolete, but it happens--especially when you're comparing an existence-altering E10 Permanent effect with an E2-3 Charm. If a Primordial came into existence as an E10 bearer of Cosmic Principle...then why even invent E2 Charms? You -can- start trees at higher Essence, but there is a heavy implication that the tree-structure of Charms is an inherent limitation that can't be circumvented: if you want this cool E10 thingy, it's going to have to build off lots of things...and even if your little subsoul motepool Charm is no longer 100% meaningful, it provides conceptual space and design space in which effects can expand and grow into something terrible. Additionally, we haven't seen anyone else's Cosmic Principle, and while all these Charms that define the Primordial condition will be similar across the board, I bet dollars to donuts that they're not identical. Malfeas likely has a larger mote pool than the Ebon Dragon. And I bet he can jump-start himself with upgrades to his obsolete mote-expander. Cythrea, for example, is supposed to have an embarrasing number of motes, but not much to spend it on--the freelancers have said that the act of Creating Creation was something on an order far beyond a single kilomote, and that Cythrea provided the raw energies necessary. This implies that her Cosmic Principle is different...or that one can retain mote-pool extenders...or that...

...well, the point is, we have no definite answers. But come to think of it, there is a fourth option.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

EDIT: Sidereal'd by golentan. By 6 minutes.

Crane Style has charms that let you recover a Compassion channel instead of motes when you stunt, and not need to spend Willpower to channel Compassion. Its capstone is a permanent Holy charm that drains the target's Willpower. The ED's perfect defenses don't work against Holy attacks, and channeling a Virtue makes defenses against him become perfect. So a Crane Stylist gets all the PDs he wants and the ED can't use PDs against him.

I suppose the ED could flurry a lot to make the Crane Stylist use a lot of PDs and so run out of virtue channels other than however many Compassion channels he can recover each action, and try to make more attacks per round than his target can recover Compassion channels. And I think there's some dispute over whether you can in fact recover an infinite number of Compassion channels a day with Crane Style. Ebbie's still in trouble, though.

Last edited by SurlySeraph; 2011-01-18 at 09:08 PM.

Originally Posted by Thespianus

I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by SurlySeraph

That's my point, though. Even the Primordial who regularly betrays himself can apparently overcome his weakness, so logically other Primordials can overcome their weaknesses, so a GSP who turns into a Primordial would have some hefty advantages over Exalts who aren't Primordials - and certainly wouldn't make himself weaker by becoming a Primordial. Wasn't that what we were arguing about?

Primordials can work to make their Lesser Imperfections inapplicable, yes. Was anyone arguing about this? It's not really a surprise. When the Ebon Dragon sees Holy, he flees. When you find a way to fight Malfeas in a not-city, he recognizes his vulnerability. But the thing is, Primordial Imperfections are, by nature, larger and more exploitable than Exalted Imperfections. Given the choice between any one Solar Perfect Defense and any Infernal Perfect Defense, the Solar wins hands-down. Their Flaws are just out and out more difficult to exploit...and less iconic. But once an Infernal starts purchasing multiple Perfects, they get an arguable (and expensive) edge that provides them with redundant options. Sure, your attack might be Holy, but are we in a city/have I ever seen that Charm before? If yes, then you're in trouble.

Exalts -DO- make themselves weaker by becoming a Primordial...if your definition of a Primordial is someone with (Me) Cosmic Principle. They're throwing away the ability to layer those redundant defenses/access to Solar or Abyssal perfects. A GSP who's taken the Devil-Tiger route is still an Exalt, until they kill themselves and lose access to Yozi Charms other than their own. That's the important distinction: they're learning Charms of a Primordial who only tangentially exists, but they're still, for the important considerations, Exalts.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

I have two answers to the problem presented. One of them is absolute tripe (but fun!), one is elegant but completely unsupported by the fluff, and the third is a postulate extracted from what we know. In order:

Why is #1 tripe? I like #3 better, but #1 doesn't seem particularly bad. Unless you meant "tripe" as in your explanation is delicious like sheep stomach, in which case that would make more sense.

Also, I like that your original post said you had two answers, you summarized three, and then you gave four. It seemed strangely appropriate to the subject matter.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Ah, I missed that ascending requires them to give up Yozi Charms other than their own, preventing them from getting as much broad applicability. Are there guidelines that prevent you from having a very rarely applicable flaw, or a flaw based on a principle that you created by becoming a Primordial and that is thus very hard for anyone else to understand and exploit?

Originally Posted by Thespianus

I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by SurlySeraph

Ah, I missed that ascending requires them to give up Yozi Charms other than their own, preventing them from getting as much broad applicability. Are there guidelines that prevent you from having a very rarely applicable flaw, or a flaw based on a principle that you created by becoming a Primordial and that is thus very hard for anyone else to understand and exploit?

Originally Posted by The Broken-Winged Crane

The Charm cascades of the Yozis should be used
as an example of what is appropriate for this new
Charm tree (the majority of its Charms exist in the
Essence 2-3 range, all perfect defenses share a single
customized Imperfection, and so forth).

Well, sort of.

Last edited by tonberrian; 2011-01-18 at 09:22 PM.

The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by SurlySeraph

Ah, I missed that ascending requires them to give up Yozi Charms other than their own, preventing them from getting as much broad applicability. Are there guidelines that prevent you from having a very rarely applicable flaw, or a flaw based on a principle that you created by becoming a Primordial and that is thus very hard for anyone else to understand and exploit?

Tonberrian's got the right of it, but it's kind of in the same vein as:

"Is there a rule against a Solar inventing a Charm with an utterly inapplicable Flaw?"

It's Good Design being Good Design and Bad Design being Bad Design. A new Devil-Tiger Prince can certainly have a strange flaw, one that requires very real effort to discover. But the Flaw should still be roughly equal to those of the Yozi, in the same way that Solars will never invent a flawless, spammable 1m Perfect Defense that doesn't count as Charm activation.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

So, "The Song of the Shadow" is an Essence 10 charm that allows an Infernal to create Celestial (Solar-level, t'boot) Exalted. As many as they feel like, albeit only upon people willing to give up their free will in exchange for superpowers and not being a worthless dirt farmer anymore (I'm sure the line will be very short). This charm has six prerequisites, starting at Essence 6 and going up from there.

Where exactly would you put a charm for making essentially Terrestrial-but-using-my-third-circle-souls-instead-of-the-elemental-dragons-as-a-template Exaltations?

What about the ability to make, say, 100 shard-based Exaltations, but with the same level of power as Terrestrials?

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Got it. Thanks.

Also, this conversation reminded me of another thing I loved in RotSE.

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The suggested possibilities for the Ebon Dragon's fetich soul, because they a) let all kinds of groups have interesting fights against it, even mortals since it can be totally pathetic by Exalted standards, and b) open up tons of plot ideas.
I especially like the idea of his fetich having really high virtues as a self-betrayal, particularly because my first thought on reading it linked into the aforementioned replacing-the-Unconquered-Sun issue. The King Is Dead can't be used to turn a demon into a god, but there's a Sidereal charm that lets you turn a demon into a god, so you'd just use that first. I can't think of a better way to torment the ED than to make his own fetich into a new UCS that's really good and loyal at its job.

Originally Posted by Thespianus

I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by Xefas

So, "The Song of the Shadow" is an Essence 10 charm that allows an Infernal to create Celestial (Solar-level, t'boot) Exalted. As many as they feel like, albeit only upon people willing to give up their free will in exchange for superpowers and not being a worthless dirt farmer anymore (I'm sure the line will be very short). This charm has six prerequisites, starting at Essence 6 and going up from there.

Where exactly would you put a charm for making essentially Terrestrial-but-using-my-third-circle-souls-instead-of-the-elemental-dragons-as-a-template Exaltations?

What about the ability to make, say, 100 shard-based Exaltations, but with the same level of power as Terrestrials?

It doesn't make Exalted. It doesn't make Exalted -at all-. It makes Akuma...and really, the difference sounds naggling, but let's look:

Mortal Akuma gain access to "You" Charms from Essence 1-3. Being an Akuma doesn't let them gain any more Essence than usual, so reaching Essence 4 requires apotheosis into a spirit, which renders the Akuma-process invalid. Yes, you can create what are effectively infinite Half-Castes...but I'm betting an Essence 10 Solar can, too. At least until Mortal Akuma and Half Castes are beaten with the nerf stick they so rightly deserve.

Terrestrials...well, you can corrupt them, give them access to Primordial level Charms. It's an upgrade, but it's not quite creating a whole new class of Exalted, given that the Yozi already have this capability in setting and haven't been able to find all that many takers.

Making Exaltations...well, it requires more than just a Charm. We're not likely to ever SEE the exact process, because it is such a big mystery of the setting and we've slaughtered most of the mysteries to begin with. But it's a task of sufficient drain and difficulty that some of the most powerful beings in existence only did it once, to a limited quantity of individuals.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

For lunar akuma at least, in terms of sheer numbers, they're almost definitely on solar level. Not quite the versatility due to the whole Urge thing, but powerwise, they're definitely up there thanks to now being able to access SMAs and SCS.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

It doesn't make Exalted. It doesn't make Exalted -at all-. It makes Akuma...and really, the difference sounds naggling, but let's look:

The Lexicon bit in the Manual of Exalted Power: Infernal specifically classifies Akuma as Exalted. I'm not saying that point needs to be argued; just saying that that was where I was getting that choice of phrase.

(Also, as an aside, can you get Half-Infernals? I originally thought that Infernals just made Demonbloods, but I can't find anywhere in the Scroll of Heroes that says that Infernals don't just make Half-Infernals, complete with mortal babies learning Yozi charms.)

And I realize that making Exaltations is murdering more of the mystique of the setting and you Just Shouldn't Do It, and it's unspeakable taboo, and bad form, and bad design, and there are no actual guidelines, and that there are no actual guidelines for a reason, and that I should just let it go.

The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.

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Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus

Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by tonberrian

Custom Limit Break, dealing with capitalization.

If it's any consolation, I only did it because it was the start of a sentence.

With regards to Half-Infernals...we have no idea. Really, Akuma need to be entirely re-aligned to give us crunch that matches the provided fluff...fluff which claims that only Solar shards have the raw power to act as emulation-boxes for Primordial magic. But Akuma just throw that -all- out of whack.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Originally Posted by kylarra

TONBERRIAN

Originally Posted by the glyphstone

tOnBErRiaN

rage

Originally Posted by gryffondurime

If it's any consolation, I only did it because it was the start of a sentence.

that's no excuse! all capitalization should bow to my needs! soon, the entirety of the world shall know my wrath, as my chirality prohibition index prevents anyone from even conceptualizing those intolerable uppercase letters, and the world will be mine! you will live to see the end of days, and you all will know that it. is. your. fault.

Last edited by tonberrian; 2011-01-18 at 10:14 PM.

The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.

Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

Hey, guys!

So, since two of the players dropped, I decided to ask Ossa's player (from the Vampire game) to join. So, we'll be adding a Night caste to the circle. An assassin, ooh!. And we're starting next Saturday!