Monday, March 1, 2010

Free Turkey from the Islamic Oppressors!

During World War I, Turkish Muslims annihilated more than a million Armenian Christians. The pattern of deportation, cattle cars, death marches, concentration camps, starvation, and mass executions was later imitated by Hitler in his attempt to destroy the Jews. Yet we do not remember the Islamic genocide that ended in more than a million deaths. After all, to point out such atrocities would be Islamophobic and racist (and, as the video shows, Muslims are all-too-willing to brutally murder you if you press the issue).

62 comments:

I simply don't get this Muslim attitude of always running away from responsibility. In this case the responsibility to remain as honest and repulsive about their previous acts of attrocities as the European countries.

Islam and slavery is another similar issue and how about the genocide against Christians in Sudan?

What gets me is when they try to use the 'Christianity is the slave man's religion', line. I have spoken to black converts to Islam who were told 'Islam is the black man's religion'. When i ask them to comment on Muhammad's owning and mistreatment of black slaves, they say, 'We only beleive in the Quran'.The other one is 'Christianity is the white man's religion'. Yet Muhammad was a white man! He even referred to black people in what would certainly be deemed racist stereotype these days.I have heard them trying to convert black people on the fallacy of 'Islam is the black man's religion'. How humiliating it must be for those sad souls who then discover what they were not told, Islam is a racist religion.It's trying to portray itself in a friendly user way to the west. Yet those who see through it are 'enemies', and if not silenced targeted. But this was the way it was in Muhammad's day, nothing's changed.

I know this is has nothing to do with this post. But you if you want to read a complete case of BIAS against Israel read the GOLDSTONE REPORT. IT IS AMAZGIN. Section 7 is the one you want to go to... Simply amazing they dont even try to hide it

Sepher Shalom said...Denial of historical facts seems to be an Islamic specialty

Well Unfortunately in this case its not only the Muslims but the US government who is enabling this denial. This is a tough one from a geo political position. Whether we like it or not Turkey is a key Strategic Asset in the region. So it really is not as simple as doing what is right. In this case doing what is right and forcing Turkey to own up to what it did in history could have far reaching implications.

On the one hand you have a genocide that happened almost a 100 years ago. Those that were involved are long dead and buried. So who can you take to justice? The same for the surviving victims, none are left to point the finger to seek justice. The direct family of the survivors are either dead or dying, and I would venture to say the same for the 2nd generation of survivors.

Let's face it, Armenia? What is Armenia? Are they a strategic asset to the US? Do they have any resources that the US needs to purchase? Any political clout that the US needs to further project its power and influence?

The sad answer is NO, but Turkey right or wrong for better or worse, does have these things.

The natural man does not do things because they are right, instead we look for the right reasons to justify the things we are about to do or have already done. "...Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch" Gen 4:17b

The first mention of a city the first mention of civilization is founded by the first MURDER. Is it any wonder that the world can over look the handy work of its founder?

We can't forget about the hundreds of thousands of Assyrians and Chaldeans also killed areas of what is now north Iraq and South Turkey, and the assasination of Mar Benjamin Shimoun, Patriarch of the Chaleans, by Kurdish muslim warlords? My grandfather was born in Mardin, Turkey but was forced to flee to northern Iraq to escape the genocide and I myself was born in northern Iraq...i do not know which land i can call my own.....both oppressive states, when will the dream of a Free Assyria become a reality.

We look at history from the center of Arabia to its furthest stretches past and present. What do we see? Jihad against unbeleivers from the heart, Saudia Arabia to the tip of the claws - from Chechnya to the North, Thailand to the East and Kosovo to the West(It was Albania pre-1998 but force has given them more land).

Muslims are still muslims because they do not follow one of Christ's teachings which calls us to not put complete trust in man but only in God. They believe everything thier shiek tells them and thier shiek learned it from his shiek and so on...kind of like the domino effect but since they are growing so quickly in 3rd world nations you get numorous bifircations forming a tree almost bearing the fruits of terrorism and ruthless warfare.

I ask the Lord to open their minds to allow them to think for themselves when it comes to spiritual issues and not just accept what thier sheiks tell them (Naik the liar who is afraid to debate Dr.Wood)

Peace brothers

p.s about the flyers for this blog if your reading this semper, I have really been busy with exams and papers I might be able to get something in for tommorow as it is my first day off since the Christmas Break.

By your own logic christians are responsible for all acts of genocide and other crimes against humanity perpetuated by their respective governments irrespective of whether the governments are christian or not.

From 1913 onwards the ottoman "empire" was controlled by the Young Turks which is a secular ultranationalist movement. If you blame their actions on muslims then you should by the same token attribute all crimes committed by the Nazis, US and Italian facists to christians.I'm willing to use your logic. The result would be that christians are responsible for all the crimes committed by their respective governments throughout history. I think the following alleged saying of Jesus summarizes your hypocrisy:

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye."Luke 6:41-42 NKJV

Lupus el LoboThe point is that unlike Muslims we in the civilized world fess up to our past mistakes, we learn from our history we don't hide it.

Muslims in Turkey wish to deny this ever happened and will spend valuable political clout in the west to make sure they never have to acknowledge it. Even tho those responsible are long dead and buried. WHY because it is the culture of ISLAM. DENY DENY DENY DENY.

Secondly, instead of looking at the actions of misguided Muslims who kill without the permission of the religion, why don't we look to the actions of the Prophet Muhammad himself? How many people were killed in wars in his time?

Thirdly, if you haven't heard of the Spanish inquisition, and other massive massacres that Christians have carried out, then you should really read about history.Have you heard of the Sabra and Shatila massacre?Have you heard of the massacres of medieval Jews in London and other European areas?Or how about the death totals of World War 1, 2, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the first and second Gulf Wars?These all don't count do they?

Typical, let's forget all about Islam attrocities, whether, the Turkey genocide and islamic slave trade, and the Assyrian genocide, the Sudan Genocide, etc and rather focus on the attrocties committed by Christians or the West, from which you forget that any Christian committing attrocties withdraws himself from the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, which cannot be said of a Muslim committing attrocites against the pagans or the people of the Book, if he abides by the teaching of the Qur'an.

It is also typical to simply claim that these figures are exaggerated. I could be completely stupith (also) and side with a number of Nazi exponents who claim that the Holocaust is exaggerated. Yet I have to admire the Western world which has never resorted to such desperation to cover over their black spots in history.

And as to dubious statistics, most of the statistics and figures of the middle ages Spanish inquisition and everything that follows are also dubious, however, the killing of a million or more Armenians approximately a hundred years ago, don't tell me we are completely stupith of loosing track of almost an entire community simply wanishing?

Which other explanation is there, oh yeah maybe a massive UFO abduction. Oh yeah possibly these modern Nazi exponents are correct too, of the 6 million Jews vanishing between 1940-45 probably 5.2 million of the same race were simply victims of a massive UFO abduction in operation.

And what about the Korean war and the Vietnam war, I am sure every Christian on this blog deplores those events of history, but what exactly has it got to do with the mass-killing of Christians in Turkey.

Is it simply impossible for a Muslim to consider the genocide committed by Muslims, without including Vietnam, China or the American Indians. What on earth do these cultures have to do with the Armenians who suffered genoced less than a hundred years ago? Are you going to blame them for the Vietnam war? For goodness sake, show some respect when the fate of these victims is being remembered.

Or how about telling a Jew to shut up about the holocaust the families who perished since millions of Africans have suffered genocide in a variaty of African disputes and civil wars.

1) you saide: «the number 1 million is highly doubted»... absolutelly right... the number of killings must habe been much higher... thanks for your correction: its good to see a muslim being honest for ounce;

2) you saide: «why don't we look to the actions of muhammad himself?»... I neber expected to see a muslim asking this... ounce again: you're tottaly right: lets speeak about him being a lyier; a killer; a womaniser; habing sex with a 8 years old baby when he was more than 50; hading suicidal thoughts; beating his wifes; ordering killings and so on...

3) you saide: «how many people were killed in wars in his time?»... if he killed eben one person he's no moral example whatesoeber... thanks again to remember us this...

4) you saide: «you haven't heard of the Spanish inquisition, and other massive massacres that Christians have carried out, then you should really read about history»... tnaks again to allow us to gibe you muslim thate are keen on lying and ignorance a chance to talk aboutte this:

4.1) the spanish inquisition was only made by nominal Christians and agains the teachings of Christ; onb the other hand the persecution off non-muslims was and his being made in accordance withe muhammad teachings, so those who did those barbaric actions are trully muslims;

4.2) no more than 2% of the 150000 thate were persecuted were killed... this is: 3000; almost the same number off non muslims killed each month by muslims arounde the world these days...;

5) you asked: «Have you heard of the Sabra and Shatila massacre?»... sure: they began with a battle between palestinian factions thate created the conditions to put the guilt on the israely forces...;

6) you asked: «Have you heard of the massacres of medieval Jews in London and other European areas?»... sure... no more than 1% off the jewas being killed in muslims areas att the same time... and please see number 4.1)

7) you asked: «Or how about the death totals of World War 1, 2, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the first and second Gulf Wars?»... whate aboutte those wars? were they made by Christians following Jesus teachings as the killings off non-muslims are being amde in accordance to muhammad teachings?

8) you asked: «these all don't count do they?»... oh yes they count... they are a clear example how the muslim mind works: it makes comparison between apples and oranges and then say: hey: apples are more red than oranges...

Your comment: "Secondly, instead of looking at the actions of misguided Muslims who kill without the permission of the religion, why don't we look to the actions of the Prophet Muhammad himself? How many people were killed in wars in his time?"

My question: Can you demonstrate that the murders were in fact not sanctioned by Islam considering the hadith and Muhammad's own actions therein? Can you demonstrate exactly where they were misguided and by whom?

Your comment: "Thirdly, if you haven't heard of the Spanish inquisition, and other massive massacres that Christians have carried out. . . etc."

Comment: Can you demonstrate in each case that the individuals and groups acting in this manner are 1)acting as Christians rather than citizens, 2) if they do claim to act in the name of Christ, are those action then consistent with the complete and accurate exegesis of the NT and the OT?

Therein, my friend, is the difference. This blog, and this entry in particular, posit the idea that when Christians act in a deplorable and evil manner they are acting in contradiction Christ. When Muslims behave this way is it within the bounds, and in some circumstances, commended by Islam.

Well for your info the current islamic government has agreed to establish a joint turkish/armenian comitte to investigate the armenian genocide. This is the first time such steps have ever been taken. I know you Americans don't know much about other countries' history but let me tell you that the Turkish military which is antreligious has put a lid on all enquries into the armenian genocide. Muslims' hands are clean in regards to the armenian genocide. Actually many armenians and assyrians were saved by muslim arabs in Syria. The genocide was instigated by nationalists not muslims. In fact the Young Turks were against islam.

Hogan: "from which you forget that any Christian committing attrocties withdraws himself from the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, which cannot be said of a Muslim committing attrocites against the pagans or the people of the Book, if he abides by the teaching of the Qur'an."

Yeah sure! Christians have been so peaceful throughout history. LOLThere are no passages in the Bible that advocate violence. LOL

By the way if that is indeed true as you say, that the Quran advocates atrocities, why on earth did the first genocide in an "islamic" country take place only when a nationalist antireligious movement took power.

Ferbando:

I would laugh too if I didn't know any history. That's seems to be a fairly good defense mechanism if you are stammering born again evangelical fool.

Hogan: "from which you forget that any Christian committing attrocties withdraws himself from the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, which cannot be said of a Muslim committing attrocites against the pagans or the people of the Book, if he abides by the teaching of the Qur'an."

Yeah sure! Christians have been so peaceful throughout history. LOLThere are no passages in the Bible that advocate violence. LOL

By the way if that is indeed true as you say, that the Quran advocates atrocities, why on earth did the first genocide in an "islamic" country take place only when a nationalist antireligious movement took power.

Hogan replies:

See, the same repetition we have just exposed, the next Muslim exponent without even consideration simply releases his reaction by committing the same fallacy.

I point out the killing of Christians in Turkey, a Muslim responds by referring to genocide on a global scale, as if that justifies Islamic attrocity. Then I point out in response that Muslims according to the Qur'an are commanded to commit attrocities agains the unbelievers, now Lupos defends Islam against my statement by attacking Christianity. Is it really impossible to engage in a decent dialogue?

To your information Lupos, you are right, a lot of evil has occurred by people who claimed to be Christians! But what is a Christian, a Christian lives according to the teaching of Jesus, and if fails to adhere by it he is not a Christian, even if being baptised on a everyday basis.

Then you point out that attrocities do occur in the Bible, as if these relate to Christianity somehow. Again you are utterly and completely misinformed about the Christian religion. We do not follow Old Testament narrative but the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

Furthermore, you claim that the Turkish regime was anti-islamic and anti-religion, where on earth do you get such ideas from? In that case why not instigate a persecution on Christians and Muslims alike?

Hi Lopus... you saide: «I would laugh too if I didn't know any history. That's seems to be a fairly good defense mechanism if you are stammering born again evangelical fool.»...

1) I know History... I habe too... I'm married withe a woman, also a former muslim, thate is a college teacher off History... guess in whate she's a specialist? yep... The Othoman Empire and the Turkish nation... ooops...

2) No mecanism defense... we Christians do not need such thingue... we are proude off our religion and culture and are nott afraide for saying so: we do not live one thingue for ourselfs and another thingue for others to see... ooops...

3) I'm not a born again Chrsitian... ooops...

so: «From 1913 onwards the ottoman "empire" was controlled by the Young Turks which is a secular ultranationalist movement»...

hahahahahahahahahaha... I eben cryied a tear after this ggod laugh... another muslim attempt to rewritte History...

Hogan:"Furthermore, you claim that the Turkish regime was anti-islamic and anti-religion, where on earth do you get such ideas from? In that case why not instigate a persecution on Christians and Muslims alike?"

Read history before you debate historic events. The Young Turks did persecute muslims. They were ultranationalists that's why they persecuted all nationalities except those who were ethnically Turkish. They managed to secularize Turkey to the extent that religous symbols in public were forbidden. They closed down Quranic schools, they killed ulama who refused to shave off their beards etc.You still haven't responded to my points:Why no genocides in the islamic world until a non-islamic movement took power in Turkey?Why did muslim arabs and kurds help assyrians and armenians. Actually there is a large armenian minority in for instance Lebanon and Syria.Let's say the new testament doesn't advocate violence just for arguments sake. The christian logic would be:A religion of peace have resulted in much more war, genocide etc than a religion of war.Well I would chose the religion of war any time, especially if it's called that by hypocrites and hatemongers.Many of the comments on this site by you and others are not especially peaceful.

Lupus El Lobos (WOLF) said "You still haven't responded to my points: Why no genocides in the islamic world until a non-islamic movement took power in Turkey?"

WOLF there were 4 Jewish Tribes in Arabia before Islam came to town. What happend to them where did they go? What happened to them was GENOCIDE.

But that is not the point. The point is that every culture every nation has comited some sort of Genocide through out history. The point is that MUSLIMS today in Turkey wish to deny their own history. We in the west do not deny our history, we learn from it. You Muslims deny your history so you can never learn. You remain ignorant.

Well Wolf go back to the pack of Islam, because it is a pack mentality.

You somehow assume that persecution began with the Young Turks, this is a misconception, the Christians in the Ottaman empire had been victims of the dhimmi system for centuries, and suffered massacres, suppression, rape, etc long before 1915.

In fact the Ottoman empire prior to the Young Turks genocide between 100.000 to 300.000 Armenians and Assyrians in a campaign of persecutions between 1894 and 1896.

Prior to this genocides of lesser scale against Christians ran frequently in the Muslim world, such as (just to mention some of them) the extermination of 10.000 Assyrian men and the enslaving of 10.000 Assyrian women and children in 1842, a massacre of 30.000 Assyrian Christians in 1847, another genocide of 30.000 Christians in Lebanon and Syria in 1860 and further genocide in Bosnia which in 1876 in May alone costed the life of 12.000 Christians.

Hence your claim is far away from reality; you simply brush aside hundreds of years of dhimmitude, daily suffering, rape, killing and suppression and frequent genocide within the Ottoman empire itself, even prior to the Young Turks rule.

In fact this was the main cause for the Armenian genocide since Armenians understandably demanded autonomy from Islamic rule, who wouldn’t?

You also assume that the Young Turks and their agressive reaction on the Armenians was solely caused by a secular faction of society, again wrong. It is true that the Young Turks aimed for a purely secular society, however, prior to the Armenian Genocide the Young Turk administration and the Islamic religious forces operated mutually.

Keep in mind also that the Army itself was the Ottoman army even at this stage, and that those who instigated the persecution and those who executed it were Muslims.

History reveals also that adherers of the previous regimes who were radical Muslims even instigated a plot against the Young Turk rule and even caused a massive persecution against the Armenians at the same time, all this prior to the ultimate Armenian massacre. I am not denying that the Young Turks may have caused the lives of many Muslims but far from to the extent of describing a persecution against the Muslim community, in fact Muslims were the ones behind the attrocities.

Furthermore, the fact that 200.000 Christian women survived by converting to Islam does not support your theory, does it? If the genocide were not a matter of religion, who cared whether these were Christian or Muslims.

You still haven't responded to my points:Why no genocides in the islamic world until a non-islamic movement took power in Turkey?

Hogan responds:

Read my post above, it answers your question effectively.

Lupos wrote:

Why did muslim arabs and kurds help assyrians and armenians.

Hogan replies:

A large of scale of the genocide was caused by Kurds.

Lupos wrote:

Actually there is a large armenian minority in for instance Lebanon and Syria.

Hogan replies:

What does that prove?

Lupos wrote:

Let's say the new testament doesn't advocate violence just for arguments sake.

Hogan replies:

Can you provide the passages in the New Testament that encourages violence?

Lupos wrote:

The christian logic would be:A religion of peace have resulted in much more war, genocide etc than a religion of war.

Hogan replies:

Those who do not adhere to the Christian teaching are not Christians, these wars and genocide you take about find not basis in Christianity, and those who commit them prove themselves not to be Christians.

As I pointed out in the previous point the Muslim world has caused as much war and genocide as the Western world.

Lupos wrote:

Well I would chose the religion of war any time, especially if it's called that by hypocrites and hatemongers.Many of the comments on this site by you and others are not especially peaceful.

Hogan replies:

On this site we expose evil we dont encourage evil, somehow the difference between those two sinks very slowly in, I think.

Proverbs 14v12; "There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death."

John 3v3,5,6; "Jesus answeredand said to him, 'Most assuredly,I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see (know, be acquainted with, and experience)the kingdom of God.'" V5; "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and (even)the Spirit, he cannot (ever)enter the kingdom of God.'V6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'"

John 14v6; Jesus said to him, "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through Me."

John 2v5; 'His mother said to the servants, "Whatever HE SAYS TO YOU, DO IT.'"

Proverbs 16v25; "There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death."

Asadullah Yusuf Hamza: «What is the relevance of the thread title then?»...

Hi... did you not saide in a previous thread in this blogg thate you were from carabiean ancestry? hummm...

the problem, dear Asadullah, is thate muslims allways say thate:

a) the reason off jihad and muslim barbaric violence arounde the World TODAY is whate formally Christian countrys did in the PAST...;

b) eben when the Turkish nation is a (pseudo)-secular state, their people are not, and its this muslim mentallity thate is creatting a mental blocade too acknoledge the truthe aboutt thate indescripteble genocide thate muslim turkish people made to armenian Christians...;

c) you muslims are alwaies readie to jump withe rabies asking to this or thate action made by non-muslim states be punished claimming thate they are being made by Christians... butt if Western Countries we are really secular (not in the USA anymore where president Usein is putting down his trousers to the barbaric muslim world) and religion does nott determinate our political acttions, in Turkey the only thing thate is secular is the name... nothing else: eben its ignoumious flag has the crescent, the simbol off muslim barbaric religion...

Asadullah Yusuf Hamza. If your 'Turkish history is a little hazy', and you 'can't see the relevance of this thread', how can you make your first statement? Grab a cool drink, read the posts, as i do, then comment in response to them. For a 'secular state Turkish Muslims are not so tolerant to Christians.

@Fernando: Yes, I am from a Caribbean American background. I'm flattered that you remembered. However, I don't see what this has to do with my hazy memory concerning Turkish History.

In response to your closing statement; "in Turkey the only thing that is secular is the name... nothing else: even its ignominous (?) flag has the crescent, the symbol of the Muslim barbaric religion...":

The Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings Be Upon him) did not use the symbol of the current star and crescent on flags or banners and neither did any of his companions (May Allah Be Pleased With them). Neither do I.

Still, it is good to hear from you again Fernando. Insha'alaa (All-Mighty God willing) you are well.

@hugh watt: I concur that the murder and maltreatment of innocent Christians (or any religious group) living within in a secular state by anyone (let alone misguided Muslims) is morally and ethically contemptible.

For the Turkish government to deny the rape, torture, and killing of at least 1 million Armenian civilians (not to mention Assyrian and Greek civilians) at the hands of many of the Muslims and Secularists of that period is wrong.

However, in my previous post I did not say; "I can't see the relevance of this thread." This would be very erroneous and ignorant on my part. I absolutely see the relevance of this thread.

If you had quoted my statement in full it would be seen as such: "What is the relevance of the thread title then?"

The question is for two reasons:

1) There is no such thing as 'Islamic' people. We who practice the system of Islam are called 'Muslims'.

Utilizing the term 'Muslim Oppressors' would be more correct, but 'Secular Oppressors' would be more accurate if we are talking about the current state of Turkish affairs within Turkey.

There is a distinction between the terms 'Islam' and 'Muslim'. 'Islam' comes from the root words 'Silim' which means 'to submit', and 'Salaam' which means 'peace'. Therefore, 'Islam' means 'to peacefully submit'.

The term 'Muslim' means 'one who peacefully submits'.

We Muslims are fallible human beings who sin and make mistakes and because of this we seek refuge in the mercy and forgiveness of Allah (All-Mighty God).

In contrast, according to the Noble Qur'an, Islam itself is the complete and perfected religion chosen by Allah (All-Mighty God) for humanity:

The Noble Qur'an [5:3]"...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion."

Also; 2) The Muslims responsible for the Armenian Massacres of that period (1915-17) are dead now.

Specifically, Abdul Hamid II (The last leader of the Ottoman Empire) and Mustafa Kemal (The first leader of the Turkish Secular State).

Which of those Muslims and Secularists responsible can we put on trial and convict now?

We can't because they are all dead.

However, I strongly believe that Allah (All-Mighty God) will judge those men responsible according to their deeds and will be punished accordingly in the hereafter.

Insha'alaa (All-Mighty God willing), I pray that this clarifies why I asked about the relevance of the thread title and may Allah guide us all towards the Straight Path. Ameen.

Asadullah Yusuf Hamza. I apologise for misquoting/misunderstanding you.I have issues though about your making distinction between Muslim and Secularists. Then, as is now, the persecutions come from Muslims who would not say they were doing those things as 'secularists'. I hear Muslims say the allied forces in Iraq/Afghanistan are 'Christians' out on another Cruasde. This is either total ignorance or willing ignorance. Muslims are persecuting my people in Turkey. They make it clear they do not want a Christian presence there. I am not saying all Muslims approve of this, not even the majority. But, too many are silent when atrocities occur in the name of Islam/allah. Do you hear Muslims denouncing the murders of Iraqi Christians? I don't. But if the allied troops so much as step out-of-line western nations highlight it and speak against it. Do you see the same in Islamic countries? You cannot seperate the Muslim from the Islam. Do you hear Muslims denouncing the slaughter of Christians in Iraq? Murder is wrong on all sides, but when done in the name of God that's a problem for me. How about you?

"I have issues though about your making distinction between Muslim and Secularists. Then, as is now, the persecutions come from Muslims who would not say they were doing those things as 'secularists'."

Sir, with all due respect, I don't ever remember saying or insinuating such a distinction between there being a justification for murder simply over religious differences and/or secular motivations.

Even if such a distinction was made, it wouldn't matter because the outcome would still be the same - it would still be murder.

Whether a Muslim is claiming religion, or a Secularist is claiming secularism, it must be maintained by all people of sound mind and reason that there is absolutely no justification for the murder of innocent civilians.

Can I believe that there have been Muslims throughout history (including the period of the Armenian massacre) who unjustly killed (murdered) innocent civilians and claimed it was in the name of their beliefs? Yes.

Can I believe that there have been Secularists throughout history (including the period of the Armenian massacre) who unjustly killed (murdered) innocent civilians and claimed it was in the name of their beliefs? Yes.

I don't see where where these two instances (not ideologies) contradict one another because the purpose, intention, and outcome of the people in both of these particular instances (Muslim and Secularist) is the same; and that is to kill without just cause.

However, what I do see is that any Muslim who commits murder is not acting in accordance with Allah's divine justice and law as presented in the Noble Qur'an:

The Noble Qur'an [6:151] Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

(*Insha'alaa (All-Mighty God willing), I will continue to address the rest of your post at a later time as I am very tired and must sleep.)

@Yusuf. Turkey as a 'secular' state is majority Muslim. As i said, you cannot seperate the Muslim from the Islam. Whether right or wrong murder against my people is happening all too often by Muslims. Have you seen the reports of the 500 Christians murdered in Jos, Nigeria today? This was not a one-off incident. Its happening time and again in Nigeria and other places which i could record here.Would the Turkish Muslim mobs say they have no Islamic sources to use as a model to commit such acts? I say they can.

"When Muhammad and his followers were about to attack Mecca to subjugate it to Islam, his adherents arrested Abu Sufyan, one of Mecca's inhabitants. They brought him to Muhammad. Muhammad told him: "Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to realize that there is no God but the only God?" Abu Sufyan answered: "I do believe that." Muhammad then said to him: "Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to know that I am the apostle of God?" Abu Sufyan answered: "By God, O Muhammad, of this there is doubt in my soul." The 'Abbas who was present with Muhammad told Abu Sufyan: "Woe to you! Accept Islam and testify that Muhammad is the apostle of God before your neck is cut off by the sword." Thus he professed the faith of Islam and became a Muslim." (Ibn Hisham, "The Biography of Muhammad" (Part 4, Page 11).OFFENSIVE WARS TO SPREAD ISLAM.What is you definition of murder, Yusuf? Look what Muhammad did to 'convert' this man! Do you think this is not now happening in other places? This is Islam in its real guise, not what 'PC' Islam is trying to put forward to the western world.Were these lives not 'sacred'? Or is all non-Muslim life considered not sacred until conversion to Islam!!? Or is Muhammad a special case allah shows favoritism to?

Please know that the bulk of this response will be in defense of The Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon him) and his noble character.

In response to your quote, "When Muhammad and his followers were about to attack Mecca to subjugate it to Islam, his adherents arrested Abu Sufyan, one of Mecca's inhabitants.":

I mean no offense nor disrespect, but I would kindly (and respectfully) advise you to study The Noble Qur'an, The Sunnah, and Islamic History a bit more thoroughly (and objectively) before being quick to judge and attack the character of The Prophet (Peace and Blessings Be Upon him) based on one book you read that conforms with your (if any) preconceived prejudices.

Contrary to your understanding, Abu Sufyan was not just another 'inhabitant' of Makkah. Abu Sufyan was the Chief of Banu Abd-Shams; which was a clan of the Quraish tribe.

He was (at that time) one of the most powerful and hated men in Makkah.

In the beginning of Islam during the time of Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings Be Upon him), Abu Sufyan became an avowed enemy of the Muslims.

In the beginning, he saw Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings Be Upon him) as a compromise and a threat to the Makkan hegemony, revenue, and social caste order.

He also viewed Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings Be Upon him) as a man aiming to change the socio-political system in Makkah, and as a whistle-blower that was heaven sent against the worship of the false idols of the Quraish nation; 'Al-Lat', 'Al-Manat', and 'Al-Uzza'.

In short, Abu Sufyan was (at one time) a greedy tyrant and pagan polytheist idolater who tried to assassinate The Prophet (Peace and Blessings Be Upon him) right before he (Peace and Blessings Be Upon him) migrated to Madinah (then called 'Yathrib').

Despite all of this, please read what Abu Sufyan had to say about The Prophet (Peace and Blessings Be Upon him) to Heraclius, the King of Byzantium:

Sahih Al-Bukhari No. 6 - Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:

Abu Sufyan bin Harb informed me that Heraclius had sent a messenger to him while he had been accompanying a caravan from Quraish. They were merchants doing business in Sham (Syria, Palestine, Lebanon and Jordan), at the time when Allah's Apostle had truce with Abu Sufyan and Quraish infidels. So Abu Sufyan and his companions went to Heraclius at Ilya (Jerusalem). Heraclius called them in the court and he had all the senior Roman dignitaries around him. He called for his translator who, translating Heraclius's question said to them, "Who amongst you is closely related to that man who claims to be a Prophet?" Abu Sufyan replied, "I am the nearest relative to him (amongst the group)."

Heraclius said, "Bring him (Abu Sufyan) close to me and make his companions stand behind him." Abu Sufyan added, Heraclius told his translator to tell my companions that he wanted to put some questions to me regarding that man (The Prophet) and that if I told a lie they (my companions) should contradict me." Abu Sufyan added, "By Allah! Had I not been afraid of my companions labeling me a liar, I would not have spoken the truth about the Prophet. The first question he asked me about him was:

'What is his family status amongst you?'

I replied, 'He belongs to a good (noble) family amongst us.'

Heraclius further asked, 'Has anybody amongst you ever claimed the same (i.e. to be a Prophet) before him?'

I replied, 'No.'

He said, 'Was anybody amongst his ancestors a king?'

I replied, 'No.'

Heraclius asked, 'Do the nobles or the poor follow him?'

I replied, 'It is the poor who follow him.'

He said, 'Are his followers increasing decreasing (day by day)?'

I replied, 'They are increasing.'

He then asked, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?'

I replied, 'No.'

Heraclius said, 'Have you ever accused him of telling lies before his claim (to be a Prophet)?'

I replied, 'No. '

Heraclius said, 'Does he break his promises?'

I replied, 'No. We are at truce with him but we do not know what he will do in it.' I could not find opportunity to say anything against him except that.

Heraclius asked, 'Have you ever had a war with him?'

I replied, 'Yes.'

Then he said, 'What was the outcome of the battles?'

I replied, 'Sometimes he was victorious and sometimes we.'

Heraclius said, 'What does he order you to do?'

I said, 'He tells us to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship anything along with Him, and to renounce all that our ancestors had said. He orders us to pray, to speak the truth, to be chaste and to keep good relations with our Kith and kin.'

Heraclius asked the translator to convey to me the following, I asked you about his family and your reply was that he belonged to a very noble family. In fact all the Apostles come from noble families amongst their respective peoples. I questioned you whether anybody else amongst you claimed such a thing, your reply was in the negative. If the answer had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man was following the previous man's statement. Then I asked you whether anyone of his ancestors was a king. Your reply was in the negative, and if it had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man wanted to take back his ancestral kingdom.

I further asked whether he was ever accused of telling lies before he said what he said, and your reply was in the negative. So I wondered how a person who does not tell a lie about others could ever tell a lie about Allah. I, then asked you whether the rich people followed him or the poor. You replied that it was the poor who followed him. And in fact all the Apostle have been followed by this very class of people. Then I asked you whether his followers were increasing or decreasing. You replied that they were increasing, and in fact this is the way of true faith, till it is complete in all respects. I further asked you whether there was anybody, who, after embracing his religion, became displeased and discarded his religion. Your reply was in the negative, and in fact this is (the sign of) true faith, when its delight enters the hearts and mixes with them completely. I asked you whether he had ever betrayed. You replied in the negative and likewise the Apostles never betray. Then I asked you what he ordered you to do. You replied that he ordered you to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship any thing along with Him and forbade you to worship idols and ordered you to pray, to speak the truth and to be chaste. If what you have said is true, he will very soon occupy this place underneath my feet and I knew it (from the scriptures) that he was going to appear but I did not know that he would be from you, and if I could reach him definitely, I would go immediately to meet him and if I were with him, I would certainly wash his feet.' Heraclius then asked for the letter addressed by Allah's Apostle which was delivered by Dihya to the Governor of Busra, who forwarded it to Heraclius to read. The contents of the letter were as follows: "In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful (This letter is) from Muhammad the slave of Allah and His Apostle to Heraclius the ruler of Byzantine. Peace be upon him, who follows the right path. Furthermore I invite you to Islam, and if you become a Muslim you will be safe, and Allah will double your reward, and if you reject this invitation of Islam you will be committing a sin by misguiding your Arisiyin (peasants). (And I recite to you Allah's Statement:)

'O people of the scripture! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims (those who have surrendered to Allah).' (3:64).

Abu Sufyan then added, "When Heraclius had finished his speech and had read the letter, there was a great hue and cry in the Royal Court. So we were turned out of the court. I told my companions that the question of Ibn-Abi-Kabsha) (the Prophet Muhammad) has become so prominent that even the King of Bani Al-Asfar (Byzantine) is afraid of him. Then I started to become sure that he (the Prophet) would be the conqueror in the near future till I embraced Islam (i.e. Allah guided me to it)."

The sub narrator adds, "Ibn An-Natur was the Governor of llya' (Jerusalem) and Heraclius was the head of the Christians of Sham. Ibn An-Natur narrates that once while Heraclius was visiting ilya' (Jerusalem), he got up in the morning with a sad mood. Some of his priests asked him why he was in that mood? Heraclius was a foreteller and an astrologer. He replied, 'At night when I looked at the stars, I saw that the leader of those who practice circumcision had appeared (become the conqueror). Who are they who practice circumcision?' The people replied, 'Except the Jews nobody practices circumcision, so you should not be afraid of them (Jews).

'Just Issue orders to kill every Jew present in the country.'

While they were discussing it, a messenger sent by the king of Ghassan to convey the news of Allah's Apostle to Heraclius was brought in. Having heard the news, he (Heraclius) ordered the people to go and see whether the messenger of Ghassan was circumcised. The people, after seeing him, told Heraclius that he was circumcised. Heraclius then asked him about the Arabs. The messenger replied, 'Arabs also practice circumcision.'

(After hearing that) Heraclius remarked that sovereignty of the 'Arabs had appeared. Heraclius then wrote a letter to his friend in Rome who was as good as Heraclius in knowledge. Heraclius then left for Homs. (a town in Syrian and stayed there till he received the reply of his letter from his friend who agreed with him in his opinion about the emergence of the Prophet and the fact that he was a Prophet. On that Heraclius invited all the heads of the Byzantines to assemble in his palace at Homs. When they assembled, he ordered that all the doors of his palace be closed. Then he came out and said, 'O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give a pledge of allegiance to this Prophet (i.e. embrace Islam).'

(On hearing the views of Heraclius) the people ran towards the gates of the palace like onagers but found the doors closed. Heraclius realized their hatred towards Islam and when he lost the hope of their embracing Islam, he ordered that they should be brought back in audience.

(When they returned) he said, 'What already said was just to test the strength of your conviction and I have seen it.' The people prostrated before him and became pleased with him, and this was the end of Heraclius's story (in connection with his faith).

Also, in response to the attack of Makkah, here is some history of that day:

Sahih Al-Bukhari No. 105 - Narrated Said:

Abu Shuraih said, "When 'Amr bin Said was sending the troops to Mecca (to fight 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair) I said to him, 'O chief! Allow me to tell you what the Prophet said on the day following the conquests of Mecca. My ears heard and my heart comprehended, and I saw him with my own eyes, when he said it. He glorified and praised Allah and then said, "Allah and not the people has made Mecca a sanctuary. So anybody who has belief in Allah and the Last Day (i.e. a Muslim) should neither shed blood in it nor cut down its trees. If anybody argues that fighting is allowed in Mecca as Allah's Apostle did fight (in Mecca), tell him that Allah gave permission to His Apostle, but He did not give it to you. The Prophet added: Allah allowed me only for a few hours on that day (of the conquest) and today (now) its sanctity is the same (valid) as it was before. So it is incumbent upon those who are present to convey it (this information) to those who are absent." Abu- Shuraih was asked, "What did 'Amr reply?" He said 'Amr said, "O Abu Shuraih! I know better than you (in this respect). Mecca does not give protection to one who disobeys (Allah) or runs after committing murder, or theft (and takes refuge in Mecca).

Sahih Al-Bukhari No. 113 - Narrated Abu Huraira:

In the year of the Conquest of Mecca, the tribe of Khuza'a killed a man from the tribe of Bani Laith in revenge for a killed person, belonging to them. They informed the Prophet about it. So he rode his Rahila (she-camel for riding) and addressed the people saying, "Allah held back the killing from Mecca. (The sub-narrator is in doubt whether the Prophet said "elephant or killing," as the Arabic words standing for these words have great similarity in shape), but He (Allah) let His Apostle and the believers over power the infidels of Mecca. Beware! (Mecca is a sanctuary) Verily! Fighting in Mecca was not permitted for anyone before me nor will it be permitted for anyone after me. It (war) in it was made legal for me for few hours or so on that day. No doubt it is at this moment a sanctuary, it is not allowed to uproot its thorny shrubs or to uproot its trees or to pick up its Luqatt (fallen things) except by a person who will look for its owner (announce it publicly). And if somebody is killed, then his closest relative has the right to choose one of the two-- the blood money (Diyya) or retaliation having the killer killed. In the meantime a man from Yemen came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Get that written for me." The Prophet ordered his companions to write that for him. Then a man from Quraish said, "Except Al-Iqhkhir (a type of grass that has good smell) O Allah's Apostle, as we use it in our houses and graves." The Prophet said, "Except Al-Idhkhiri.e. Al-Idhkhir is allowed to be plucked."

On the Day of the conquest of mecca, Allah's Apostle said, "Allah has made this town a sanctuary. Its thorny bushes should not be cut, its game should not be chased, and its fallen things should not be picked up except by one who would announce it publicly."

Sahih Al-Bukhari No. 1720 - Narrated Said bin Abu Said Al-Maqburi:

Abu Shuraih, Al-'Adawi said that he had said to 'Amr bin Sa'id when he was sending the troops to Mecca (to fight 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair), "O Chief! Allow me to tell you what Allah's Apostle said on the day following the conquest of mecca. My ears heard that and my heart understood it thoroughly and I saw with my own eyes the Prophet when he, after Glorifying and Praising Allah, started saying, 'Allah, not the people, made Mecca a sanctuary, so anybody who has belief in Allah and the Last Day should neither shed blood in it, nor should he cut down its trees. If anybody tells (argues) that fighting in it is permissible on the basis that Allah's Apostle did fight in Mecca, say to him, 'Allah allowed His Apostle and did not allow you.' "Allah allowed me only for a few hours on that day (of the conquest) and today its sanctity is valid as it was before. So, those who are present should inform those who are absent (concerning this fact." Abu Shuraih was asked, "What did 'Amr reply?" He said, ('Amr said) 'O Abu Shuraih! I know better than you in this respect Mecca does not give protection to a sinner, a murderer or a thief."

Sahih Al-Bukhari No. 4002 - Narrated Mujahid:

Allah's Apostle got up on the day of the conquest of mecca and said, "Allah has made Mecca a sanctuary since the day He created the Heavens and the Earth, and it will remain a sanctuary by virtue of the sanctity Allah has bestowed on it till the Day of Resurrection. It (i.e. fighting in it) was not made lawful to anyone before me!, nor will it be made lawful to anyone after me, and it was not made lawful for me except for a short period of time. Its game should not be chased, nor should its trees be cut, nor its vegetation or grass uprooted, not its Luqata (i.e. Most things) picked up except by one who makes a public announcement about it." Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib said, "Except the Idhkhir, O Allah's Apostle, as it is indispensable for blacksmiths and houses." On that, the Prophet kept quiet and then said, "Except the Idhkhir as it is lawful to cut."

(*Please note: A few hours of fighting for one day performed by The Prophet [Peace Be Upon him] and notice also the incredible mercy and leniency shown by The Prophet [Peace Be Upon him] towards Abu Sufyan and the people of Makkah after they tried to assassinate him.)

In response to your statement, "Turkey as a 'secular' state is majority Muslim.":

So What? Muslims living and operating under a secular regime aren't truly being regulated under divine law as prescribed within The Noble Qur'an and the Authentic Sunnah anyway.

The way I see it, this only supports a continued argument in favor of Islamic Shari'ah and against Western Secularism amongst 'Muslims' within the boundaries of 'Muslim' countries.

In the context of a True Islamic society, there is no separation between Mosque and state, and Allah knows best.

In response to your statement, "As I said, you cannot separate the Muslim from the Islam.":

Yes I can, because I certainly separate the evil actions of certain people who claim to be 'Christians' from the noble teachings of Prophet Isa Alayhee Salaam (Prophet Jesus Peace Be Upon him).

I don't blame Jesus the son of Mary (Peace Be Upon him) or Christianity for the Ku Klux Klan, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, David Duke, David Koresh, David Berkowitz, John Wayne Gacey, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Tony Alamo, Timothy McVeigh, Phillip and Nancy Garrido, etc...

I do NOT believe for one second that Christianity is to blame for the actions of these monsters, nor do I blame all Christians for the actions of these monsters.

In response to your question, "What is your definition of murder, Yusuf?":

Realistically, the appropriate question should be, 'What is the definition of murder?'

(*Note: I only say this because there is no such thing as MY definition of murder.)

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. This is a distinction from the term 'Manslaughter'.

Manslaughter is the legal term for the killing of a human being in a manner which is considered less culpable than murder.

Manslaughter is usually broken down into two distinct categories: voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter.

I really, really tried very hard to have a peaceful and humane dialog with you.

I made it a point never to yell at you, or call your religion 'barbaric'as others have done to me despite the respect and love I have tried to convey towards you and the rest of the contributors to Mr. Wood's blog.

I made it a point in this dialog between you and I not to insult Christians, Christianity, the Bible, or Jesus (Peace and Blessings Be Upon him).

The Noble Qur'an [6:108] says:

Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.

You should know that both of my parents ARE Christians and that I love them very much from the bottom of my heart.

I sincerely respect their devotion to their faith even if on most (if not all) levels it contrasts with my own faith.

Do you really think I could ever want anything bad happen to them simply because they are not Muslims?

If you do, then you are sadly mistaken about the Muslim fellow who just took a great deal of consideration and care in responding respectfully to your last post.

The Noble Qur'an [4:1] says:

O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.

The Noble Qur'an [39:6] says:

He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and he sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: He makes you, in the wombs of your mothers, in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness. such is Allah, your Lord and Cherisher: to Him belongs (all) dominion. There is no god but He: then how are ye turned away (from your true Centre)?

The Noble Qur'an [16:78] says:

It is He Who brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers when ye knew nothing; and He gave you hearing and sight and intelligence and affections: that ye may give thanks (to Allah).

The Noble Qur'an [2:83] says:

And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).

The Noble Qur'an [17:23] says:

Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour.

The Noble Qur'an [46:15] says:

We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents: In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says, "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam."

The Noble Qur'an [31:14] says:

And We have enjoined on man (to be good) to his parents: in travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning: (hear the command), "Show gratitude to Me and to thy parents: to Me is (thy final) Goal.

If I have erred in any statements made here in regards to Islam, The Qur'an, or The Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon him), please note that any and all mistakes are my own.

Insha'alaa (All-Mighty God willing), May Allah have mercy on me and forgive me if this has occurred. Ameen.

@Yusuf. Pt.1. I'll split this into 2 or 3 posts so bear with me, its a bit late.I have no 'preconceived prejudices' against Islam. What i post, if you notice, is based upon Islamic sources that i bring to blogg land then make comment on. I've not insulted anyone, unless you take what's said out of context. Dialogue is good, arguments are not. So if i say something that may seem to be an insult it's not intended so.I disagree with Islam/Quran and show why with refs'. You have your beliefs and i have mine which we have disagreements on. Let's talk about those without being personal.

I read with interest what Abdullah Yusuf wrote.He said his 2 parents are Christian.He gave several good Koran passages about how children should be KIND to their PARENTS:

31:14/46:15/17:23/2:83/4:1/6:151

But their is another passage that for me is troubling:

SURA 9:23-24:

"O you who believe! take not for PROTECTORS/FRIENDS/GUARDIANS your FATHERS and your BROTHERS if they love INFIDELITY above FAITH: if any of YOU (Muslims) do take them as PROTECTORS/FRIENDS/GUARDIANS, they are WRONGDOERS."

"Say: If your fathers, and your sons, and your brethren, and your wives, and your tribe, and the wealth you have acquired, and merchandise for which you fear that there will no sale, and dwellings you desire are DEARER to you than ALLAH and His MESENGER and striving in His way: then wait till Allah brings His command to pass. Allah guides not wrongdoing folk."

The question is if the NON-MUSLIM family members would act the SAME way?I say no.Non-Muslim Fathers and mothers will always love/protect their children even if they become Muslim.Blood is thicker than water.Family is family,as the saying goes.

The Koran tells Muslims to reject non-Muslim parents as friends/associates/protectors.Why should one be AFRAID of having his parents as PROTECTORS,that's what parents naturally do,they are good parents.

Yusuf. Where in the Bible are Christians told to 'kill and be killed in the way of God'!? Dahmer, Manson etc, why mention these!? When i use refs' i point to Sources or people who shout, 'allahu akbar' as they go about wielding clubs, machetes and knives amputating hands and feet. Where do you see Christians doing this? Muslims can use Muhammad's example to justify their actions.

He then asked, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?'I replied, 'No.'Heraclius said, 'Have you ever accused him of telling lies before his claim (to be a Prophet)?'I replied, 'No. 'Heraclius said, 'Does he break his promises?'I replied, 'No. We are at truce with him but we do not know what he will do in it.' I could not find opportunity to say anything against him except that.Never read about the 'Wars of Apostasy'? What happened to those who left Islam after Muhammads death? You don't believe Muslims are leaving Islam today? Muhammad lied after he claimed to be a prophet! You must know this. Why did they not know what he would do in the 'truce'? Could it be they knew he could not be trusted? 'Treaty of Hudaybiyya'!

Ibn Kathir says that Muhammad's followers met a man and asked him to become a Muslim. He asked them, "What is Islam?" They explained that to him. He said, "What if I refuse it? What would you do to me?" They answered, "We would kill you." Despite that, he refused to become a Muslim and they killed the poor man after he went and bade his wife farewell. She continued to weep over his corpse for days until she died of grief over her slain beloved who was killed for no reason. (ref: Isma'il Ibn Kathir in his book, "The Prophetic Biography," pt3,p596).See, Christians in Turkey,or wherever Muslims are the majority can not expect them to overrule Muahammads set standards. He condoned violence against anyone who would not embrace Islam.

Yusuf. Can you defend the action of killing a man for simply refusing to become a Muslim? If you don't, then that would be unIslamic. Do you condone it? That would vindicate what i have been saying all along.Sharia the answer? What about those who refuse to accept it, like in Sudan, Nigeria etc? Do you condone the brutality against opposers? If not, that's unIslamic. If you agree, well.Paying Jizyah 'in humilation' as Dawood translates it. You ok with this?Abu Sufyan would have been just as worthy of death as the man who refused to convert and was executed simply because they did not want to become Muslim. Do you agree with that?

*In response to your statement, "Non-Muslim Fathers and mothers will always love/protect their children even if they become Muslim. Blood is thicker than water. Family is family, as the saying goes.":

The Noble Qur'an [60-3] says:

Of no profit to you will be your relatives and your children on the Day of Judgment: He will judge between you: for Allah sees well all that ye do.

*In response to your statement, "Why should one be AFRAID of having his [i.e. Christian] parents as PROTECTORS? That's what parents do, they're good parents.":

The Noble Qur'an [60:2] says:

If they were to get the better of you, they would behave to you as enemies, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you for evil: and they desire that ye should reject the Truth.

*In response to your quotation of the transliteration of Surah [9:23-24] followed by your statement; "The Koran tells Muslims to reject non-Muslim parents as friends, associates, and protectors.":

The Noble Qur'an [60:7-9] says:

It may be that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

(Perhaps Allah will make friendship between you and those, whom you hold as enemies.) meaning affection after animosity, tenderness after coldness and coming together after parting from each other,

[وَاللَّهُ قَدِيرٌ]

(And Allah has power (over all things),) Allah is able to gather opposites and bring together hearts, after feeling hostility and hardness. In this case, the hearts will come together in agreement, just as Allah said when He mentioned His favor on the Ansar,

(And remember Allah's favor on you, for you were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, so that, by His grace, you became brethren and were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it.) (3:103) Also the Prophet said to them,

(He it is Who has supported you with His help and with the believers. And He has united their hearts. If you had spent all that is in the earth, you could not have united their hearts, but Allah has united them. Certainly He is Almighty, All-Wise.) (8:62,63) And in the Hadith:

(Love your loved one moderately, because one day, he might become your enemy. Hate your hated one moderately, because one day, he might become your loved one.) Allah's statement,

[وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ]

(And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) means, Allah forgives the disbelief of the disbelievers if they repent from it, returned to their Lord and surrendered to Him in Islam. Surely, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful to those who repent to Him from their sins, no matter what type of the sin it is.

If I have erred in any statements made here in regards to Islam, The Qur'an, or The Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon him), please note that any and all mistakes are my own.

Insha'alaa (All-Mighty God willing), May Allah have mercy on me and forgive me if this has occurred. Ameen.

*A bit of advice; If you haven't done so already, you should take the time to (at least) read the transliteration of The Noble Qur'an from cover to cover. Pray right before you do it, and do it without the intention of finding something wrong with it just to console your pride.

Thank you for the input.I was surprised by the answer in the sense that I thought you would say:"Sura 9:23-24 is only in the CONTEXT of the 10 year war between Mohammed and the Meccans.When to be an unbeliever would be to be automatically against Mohammed,to HELP those who are against him."

RESPONSE

I would have said one's family(father,mother,brothers,sisters)could also have been NEUTRAL.So to be an UNBELIEVER in the 10 year war did not automatically mean to be at war against Mohammed.

That is the answer for those Muslims who argue AGAINST 9:23-24 being a UNIVERSAL command by Allah.

But I see you accept 9:23-24 as being a universal command.I understand the part of the Koran you cited that talk of being good to enemies who later change,and reconciliation occurs.

SURA 60:7-9:

"It may be that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as ENEMIES. For Allah has power (over all things); And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong."

But 9:23-24 tells us not to have as protectors/friends our family if they are non-believers.Period,that is all it says.

It doesn't say to not accept them if they BECOME our ENEMIES,do us harm,drive us out of the house,etc.(what sura 60:7-9 says).The only,and I repeat,the ONLY condition given is that they are non-Muslim.

SURA 9:23-24:

"O you who believe! take not for PROTECTORS/FRIENDS/GUARDIANS your FATHERS and your BROTHERS if they love INFIDELITY above FAITH: if any of YOU (Muslims) do take them as PROTECTORS/FRIENDS/GUARDIANS, they are WRONGDOERS."

"Say: If your fathers, and your sons, and your brethren, and your wives, and your tribe, and the wealth you have acquired, and merchandise for which you fear that there will no sale, and dwellings you desire are DEARER to you than ALLAH and His MESENGER and striving in His way: then wait till Allah brings His command to pass. Allah guides not wrongdoing folk."

AGAIN

I agree with you that the Koran says alot,alot of times to be kind to parents(31:14/46:15/17:23/2:83/4:1/6:151)but in 9:23-24(even if you take it as only applying to the 10 year war)you have one of the famous CONDITIONAL passages in the Koran that alter what you find in:31:14/46:15/17:23/2:83/4:1/6:151).At least that is what an analysis indicates to me.

(*In response to your statement, “Yusuf. Where in the Bible are Christians told to 'kill and be killed in the way of God'!? Dahmer, Manson etc, why mention these!? “):

I never made such a statement, nor have I ever posted any such accusations or references to any version of the Bible. In fact, I have never posted anything about any version of the Bible on Mr. Wood's blog.

If you notice, I've defended Islam and the Prophet Muhammad [Peace Be Upon him] against slander and libel utilizing Islamic sources. Namely, The Qur'an, Sahih Al-Buhkari, and Tafsir Ibn Kathir.

I don't need to put down any verses from any version of the Bible or discredit Christianity at all in order to validate my belief in Islam.

Islam stands on it's own. Allah (All-Mighty God) doesn't need me.

Alhamdulillah (All Praise is due to All-Mighty God), I am honored to have opportunities for speaking in defense of Islam, The Noble Qur'an, and The Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings Be Upon him).

As far as mentioning people such as Dahmer and Manson, please re-read my post again.

If you re-read the post, you will notice that I did not blame Christianity (or the Bible, as some other individuals might do) or even the noble teachings of Prophet Isa Alayhee Salaam Ibn Maryam (Prophet Jesus [Peace Be Upon him], the son of Mary) for the actions of these evil men:

“I certainly separate the evil actions of certain people who claim to be 'Christians' from the noble teachings of Prophet Isa Alayhee Salaam (Prophet Jesus Peace Be Upon him).”

“I do NOT believe for one second that Christianity is to blame for the actions of these monsters, nor do I blame all Christians for the actions of these monsters.”

(*In response to your statement, “When i use refs' i point to Sources”):

The sources you have previously referenced during this discussion:

1.Isma'il Ibn Kathir in his book, "The Prophetic Biography," pt3,p596

2.Ibn Hisham, “The Biography of The Prophet” pt4.p11

Neither of these references are Ayats from The Noble Qur'an, Tafsir, or any Authentic Hadith.

(*In response to your statement, “or people who shout, 'allahu akbar' as they go about wielding clubs, machetes and knives amputating hands and feet. Where do you see Christians doing this? Muslims can use Muhammad's example to justify their actions.”):

Which Christians or Muslims are you referring to? You are over-generalizing and you are certainly not giving me any references for this particular claim.

Ironically, I sing 'Allahu Akbar' ('All-Mighty God Is Great') many times a day and none of the things that you have described occurs during my Praise to Allah (All-Mighty God).

(*In response to your question, "Never read about the 'Wars of Apostasy'?"):

Yeah, what about it?

(*In response to your question, "What happened to those who left Islam after Muhammads death?)

Lol, I don't know because 1400 years is a lot longer than I've been alive.

"I concur that the murder and maltreatment of innocent Christians (or any religious group) living within in a secular state by anyone (let alone misguided Muslims) is morally and ethically contemptible.Sir, with all due respect, I don't ever remember saying or insinuating such a distinction between there being a justification for murder simply over religious differences and/or secular motivations. Even if such a distinction was made, it wouldn't matter because the outcome would still be the same - it would still be murderWhether a Muslim is claiming religion, or a Secularist is claiming secularism, it must be maintained by all people of sound mind and reason that there is absolutely no justification for the murder of innocent civilians.Can I believe that there have been Muslims throughout history (including the period of the Armenian massacre) who unjustly killed (murdered) innocent civilians and claimed it was in the name of their beliefs? Yes. I don't see where where these two instances (not ideologies) contradict one another because the purpose, intention, and outcome of the people in both of these particular instances (Muslim and Secularist) is the same; and that is to kill without just cause.However, what I do see is that any Muslim who commits murder is not acting in accordance with Allah's divine justice and law as presented in the Noble Qur'an: The Noble Qur'an [6:151] Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, EXCEPT BY WAY OF JUSTICE AND LAW: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom."

S:9.111. Is this a definiton of 'EXCEPT BY WAY OF JUSTICE AND LAW:'? Where's the 'just cause' in this verse?100yr old killed whilst sleeping! Man killed because he refused to accept Islam!Do you really need the refs' for these? Is a 'secular state off-limits to those who want to spread Islam the way Muhammad/Quran says?

@Yusuf,Pt:2."The sources you have previously referenced during this discussion: 1.Isma'il Ibn Kathir in his book, "The Prophetic Biography," pt3,p596 2.Ibn Hisham, “The Biography of The Prophet” pt4.p11Neither of these references are Ayats from The Noble Qur'an, Tafsir, or any Authentic Hadith."

Did Muhammad try to convert this man against his will? That's the point i'm making!Is this still happening today? This story appears in Bukhari you know that! Are non-Muslim lives not sacred?

"Contrary to your understanding, Abu Sufyan was not just another 'inhabitant' of Makkah. Abu Sufyan was the Chief of Banu Abd-Shams; which was a clan of the Quraish tribe." I don't care what he was Muhammad murdered him for not accepting Islam!

"In response to your statement, "As I said, you cannot separate the Muslim from the Islam.": Yes I can, because I certainly separate the evil actions of certain people who claim to be 'Christians' from the noble teachings of Prophet Isa Alayhee Salaam (Prophet Jesus Peace Be Upon him). I don't blame Jesus the son of Mary (Peace Be Upon him) or Christianity for the Ku Klux Klan, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, David Duke, David Koresh, David Berkowitz, John Wayne Gacey, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Tony Alamo, Timothy McVeigh, Phillip and Nancy Garrido, etc... I do NOT believe for one second that Christianity is to blame for the actions of these monsters, nor do I blame all Christians for the actions of these monsters." No, They have nothing to do with Christianity, but Muslims killing 'IN THE NAME OF ALLAH',ARE STILL MUSLIMS WHO HAVE MUHAMMAD'S EXAMPLES TO FOLLOW!

"Realistically, the appropriate question should be, 'What is the definition of murder?' (*Note: I only say this because there is no such thing as MY definition of murder.) Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. This is a distinction from the term 'Manslaughter.'"100yr old killed whilst sleeping becausehe wrote poetry about Muhammad! Man killed because he refused to accept Islam!

Pt:3.(*In response to your statement, “or people who shout, 'allahu akbar' as they go about wielding clubs, machetes and knives amputating hands and feet. Where do you see Christians doing this? Muslims can use Muhammad's example to justify their actions.”):

"Which Christians or Muslims are you referring to? You are over-generalizing and you are certainly not giving me any references for this particular claim." I did mention Jos, Nigeria incident.

"Ironically, I sing 'Allahu Akbar' ('All-Mighty God Is Great') many times a day and none of the things that you have described occurs during my Praise to Allah (All-Mighty God)."What's that got to with my referring to killing IN ALLAH'S NAME? Those in Jos state may very well have been shouting the same thing.

"He then asked, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?'I replied, 'No." WHAT ABOUT THE WARS OF APOSTASY?

"(*In response to your question, "What happened to those who left Islam after Muhammads death?) Lol, I don't know because 1400 years is a lot longer than I've been alive." W.O.A.?

"I don't need to put down any verses from any version of the Bible or discredit Christianity at all in order to validate my belief in Islam. Islam stands on it's own. Allah (All-Mighty God) doesn't need me."WHAT!!! WITHOUT THE BIBLE ISLAM IS NOTHING!

Pt:4. Sorry to quote you extensively, but you seem to not be following my flow.Islam was and is spread OFFENSIVELY, not defensively as some want the west to believe. The Muhammad you're describing is not the one your traditions speak about.End of reply.

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