Most classes have it pretty easy though, but no other class has restrictions from their 90 talents like we do. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one since I don't recall all the talents. What Invocation essentially does is like asking a rogue to stop auto-attacking every 40 seconds for 6 secs to reapply his S&D. RoP is like asking a hunter to spend a second of his time every time he moved to drop a trap. Honestly I don't think it adds to our game play, it detracts from us by making us preform menial boring tasks in order to ensure our dps is as it should be. I have no issue with adding some sort of maintainable buff for us to have, but if they cant do it creatively, which seems like what they tried, they should at least do it simple so it doesn't feel like you're getting screwed over.

When I say Mages have it easy, I mean their base rotations are far easier than a lot of classes, regardless of spec. The hardest rotation to pull off for a Mage is Frost, and in reality all that is in managing 1 debuff on the boss and then ensuring you use everything else on cooldown and can manage procs. Compare that to more complex specs like locks, shadow priests or even boomkins.

Sure, we are pretty much the only class that is 'restricted' by their 90 talents, but I wouldn't go as far to say as it feels like we're getting screwed over. As a class we're still the top damage in single target situations and most cleave situations. Yes the talents are clunky and awkward at times but there are also some fights that they are VERY well suited for exploiting, so there are still positives there.

Sometimes what I really wish they would do is just rebuild Mages like they did with Warlocks, give each spec some uniqueness and flavor. We're starting to become like Rogues... /shudder.

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - Carl Sagan

False facts are highly injurious to the progress of science, for they often endure long; but false views, if supported by some evidence, do little harm, for every one takes a salutary pleasure in proving their falseness. - Charles Darwin

On that note we certainly don't have the only talents that provide benefits but also drawbacks.
A significant number of the Warlock talents provide benefits at a cost, including one of the level 90 ones.
Death Knights have a tier that is essentially a maintenance DPS increase, through the one that provides a method for rune regeneration. Just like ours there is pretty much a "best" option for each spec, then ones that are easier to use but provide less benefit.
Monks have their Chi tier which isn't quite the same but needs careful management to work properly into your rotation.

On that note we certainly don't have the only talents that provide benefits but also drawbacks.
A significant number of the Warlock talents provide benefits at a cost, including one of the level 90 ones.
Death Knights have a tier that is essentially a maintenance DPS increase, through the one that provides a method for rune regeneration. Just like ours there is pretty much a "best" option for each spec, then ones that are easier to use but provide less benefit.
Monks have their Chi tier which isn't quite the same but needs careful management to work properly into your rotation.

None of those root you to the ground. Or something that needs to be managed every 40 seconds. The DK rune generation tier changes how you manage your runes but only as a passive effect for 2 of the 3.

None of those root you to the ground. Or something that needs to be managed every 40 seconds. The DK rune generation tier changes how you manage your runes but only as a passive effect for 2 of the 3.

Mage talents don't root you to the ground either, I'm not sure if people realise this, but you don't have to be dead centre of your rune, you have about 10 yards of movement in all directions, which if you place your rune in a smart way, should be enough to dodge most mechanics coming your way, since switching to arcane and in turn using rune of power on every encounter I haven't once felt rooted or limited in my movement, I am just as mobile as when I played fire (which is pretty mobile)

So far the only fight where I've found IW to be the best choice (unless you're going Arcane) is Grand Empress; where there is fairly consistent AoE damage (don't forget you only need to absorb 30K which isn't a lot) to continually proc it in P1 and P3. P2 is a bit more laxxed from a damage point of view but there are still mechanics that will help you proc it. Agreed that it could use some tweaks though..

I only use IW on Garalon. Pheromones make it easy and you don't have to stop fucking up legs to get your buff.

Originally Posted by Serene

When people typically talk about changes as though they'd prefer more passive effects and less management (which is what the 90 talents are), or suggesting that the damage bonuses are buffed (which is ludicrous, personally) or have the damage buffs made passive yes, I'm going to comment on it.

I dislike the 90 talents and really think they could use some quality of life changes, but I can still deal with them and I still try and find ways to optimise myself on each fight. I don't comment about how they're frustrating to manage or how they could be made easier, because the reality is that Mages as a whole have life incredibly easy; having these talents makes the spec more difficult (to some, can mean more complex) and raises the skill-cap a bit.

I know for a fact they wouldn't [sit around idly while channeling every 40s], which is probably why they'd take RoP or IW; you're not limited to Invocation and people who complain about RoP are probably using it sub-optimally. IW I have already said could use some tweaks but otherwise is in a decent place overall.

For fire and frost invocation is king in almost all cases. I don't like RoP, I can use it effectively, I just don't like it.

Originally Posted by voltaa

Mage talents don't root you to the ground either, I'm not sure if people realise this, but you don't have to be dead centre of your rune, you have about 10 yards of movement in all directions, which if you place your rune in a smart way, should be enough to dodge most mechanics coming your way, since switching to arcane and in turn using rune of power on every encounter I haven't once felt rooted or limited in my movement, I am just as mobile as when I played fire (which is pretty mobile)

You're the only mage in the world that thinks arcane is as mobile as fire.

Problem:
RoP offers nothing other than damage in return for taking away our mobility. It needs to give a beneficial secondary effect in order to compete.

Suggestions:

Rune of Power
30 yard range
0.5 second cast

Places a Rune of Power on the ground, which lasts for 1 min. While standing in your own Rune of Power, your mana regeneration is increased by 100%, your spell damage is increased by 15%, your movement speed by 30% and removes and makes you immune to effects that limit your movement.
Lasts 3 seconds.

Only 2 Runes of Power can be placed at one time.

Replaces Evocation.

Explanation:
Basically turns the buff into a 3 sec duration which auto refreshes while you are standing in it but lasts for 3 seconds while you are outside your rune.
It also makes us immune to snares or roots (as well as clearing them), yes, that's a big thing, but that's the point. The biggest change it will allow, is an actual strategic use of RoP in PvP, something that is sorely lacking from the talent's pvp viability. Especially given that the mage will have to return to the rune from time to time to clear snares.

Also, the movement speed buff will allow for better limited mobility during transitions, i.e. bouncing back and forth between two runes at increased speeds. This will lessen the impact of highly mobile fights on the talent, while still preserving the core idea. It just increases the mage's effective range, which is a good thing.

To add some spice, make it so the mage levitates when he gains the RoP buff. (kinda like priest levitate).

"There are very few who can claim what he can. There are even fewer who can prove it like he can. There are even less that can match him, but all will no doubt accept what he is, and what he can do. The Highlord is for sure one of a kind. A true Master of the Arcane arts. It would be best for you to listen."
- Lady Nåabi of the Immortalis, former Guild Executor, former Raid Lead.

Problem:
RoP offers nothing other than damage in return for taking away our mobility. It needs to give a beneficial secondary effect in order to compete.

Suggestions:

Rune of Power
30 yard range
0.5 second cast

Places a Rune of Power on the ground, which lasts for 1 min. While standing in your own Rune of Power, your mana regeneration is increased by 100%, your spell damage is increased by 15%, your movement speed by 30% and removes and makes you immune to effects that limit your movement.
Lasts 3 seconds.

Only 2 Runes of Power can be placed at one time.

Replaces Evocation.

Explanation:
Basically turns the buff into a 3 sec duration which auto refreshes while you are standing in it but lasts for 3 seconds while you are outside your rune.
It also makes us immune to snares or roots (as well as clearing them), yes, that's a big thing, but that's the point. The biggest change it will allow, is an actual strategic use of RoP in PvP, something that is sorely lacking from the talent's pvp viability. Especially given that the mage will have to return to the rune from time to time to clear snares.

Also, the movement speed buff will allow for better limited mobility during transitions, i.e. bouncing back and forth between two runes at increased speeds. This will lessen the impact of highly mobile fights on the talent, while still preserving the core idea. It just increases the mage's effective range, which is a good thing.

To add some spice, make it so the mage levitates when he gains the RoP buff. (kinda like priest levitate).

Basicly ye, I've been trying to get people to get behind the RoP effect be a 3-5 sec buff that refreshes when going over it, maybe even 2 or 2.5 secs to not make it totally op for best mages out there.

---------- Post added 2012-12-13 at 11:12 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Stormcall

What nice abilities do non-PvP DKs get at 90 again?

Dont know, but as all mage talents give ~10% more damage done on average, mages are balanced around that, so I would really happy to see only pvp talents as our level 90 talents, but that is not likely to happen.

What level 90 talent do DK's get that is a really annoying, tedious mechanic you're forced to deal with to maintain your dps?

Nothing at all? Well, maybe you should shut up and be thankful for your pve-uninteresting talents, or your complaints might inspire some developer to do some mage-style changes to DK's and then you really would have something to bitch about.

Borderline on the harsh words maybe, but this is the third or fourth time in a few days some DK is here saying we shouldn't complain about our 90 talents because the DK ones do nothing for pve. Completely irrelevant to mage issues. Go away.

Problem:
RoP offers nothing other than damage in return for taking away our mobility. It needs to give a beneficial secondary effect in order to compete.

Suggestions:

Rune of Power
30 yard range
0.5 second cast

Places a Rune of Power on the ground, which lasts for 1 min. While standing in your own Rune of Power, your mana regeneration is increased by 100%, your spell damage is increased by 15%, your movement speed by 30% and removes and makes you immune to effects that limit your movement.
Lasts 3 seconds.

Only 2 Runes of Power can be placed at one time.

Replaces Evocation.

Explanation:
Basically turns the buff into a 3 sec duration which auto refreshes while you are standing in it but lasts for 3 seconds while you are outside your rune.
It also makes us immune to snares or roots (as well as clearing them), yes, that's a big thing, but that's the point. The biggest change it will allow, is an actual strategic use of RoP in PvP, something that is sorely lacking from the talent's pvp viability. Especially given that the mage will have to return to the rune from time to time to clear snares.

Also, the movement speed buff will allow for better limited mobility during transitions, i.e. bouncing back and forth between two runes at increased speeds. This will lessen the impact of highly mobile fights on the talent, while still preserving the core idea. It just increases the mage's effective range, which is a good thing.

To add some spice, make it so the mage levitates when he gains the RoP buff. (kinda like priest levitate).

I like the speed buff part, but the immunity to snares would probably be too powerfull for PVP. Not that many mages pick RoP for PVP nowadays, since it is bascily asking to get focus-fired...

I like the speed buff part, but the immunity to snares would probably be too powerfull for PVP. Not that many mages pick RoP for PVP nowadays, since it is bascily asking to get focus-fired...

I dont think immunity to snares is unfair, at least if it would have some sort of charges/cd so you cant abuse it + you can still only have 2 and your oppenents can see where they are, so they can just LoS them.

I like the speed buff part, but the immunity to snares would probably be too powerfull for PVP. Not that many mages pick RoP for PVP nowadays, since it is bascily asking to get focus-fired...

Making RoP a bit more powerful is the entire point.

As you said, no one uses RoP for PvP, the snare immunity is there in order to get people to use it.

Snare immunity/suppression as a whole is not so powerful an idea in the grander scheme of things. Many other classes have it either as a talented option or as something inherent to their class. Plus, it makes a good contrast when coupled with RoP.

You are correct in that the mage with RoP usually gets focused down first. This is precisely why you need snare immunity on there. Focusing a RoP mage shouldn't be so easy. They should be relatively immobile when they need to bring the pain, but they should be more slippery to compensate (i.e. the speed boost and snare immunity).

Basically, RoP is the worst of the three right now as far as what it brings to the table. A 15% damage buff is just not good enough when you trade in your entire mobility package for it. For specs like Arcane (which, unlike fire or frost, cannot burst while moving at all) this is horrible, since the penalty for moving is almost triple dipping.

Remember, at 3 seconds of 30% speed boost, you're effective range is still only ~20 yards, which is the same as a blink. So the mage's mobility is still limited (as is the intent of the talent), what these changes do is increase the mage's operating range a little (the mage will still need to remain within at least a blink's distance from a rune) while giving the PvP mage a few more strategic choices.

Its a solid solution.

"There are very few who can claim what he can. There are even fewer who can prove it like he can. There are even less that can match him, but all will no doubt accept what he is, and what he can do. The Highlord is for sure one of a kind. A true Master of the Arcane arts. It would be best for you to listen."
- Lady Nåabi of the Immortalis, former Guild Executor, former Raid Lead.

Making RoP a bit more powerful is the entire point.Basically, RoP is the worst of the three right now as far as what it brings to the table. A 15% damage buff is just not good enough when you trade in your entire mobility package for it. For specs like Arcane (which, unlike fire or frost, cannot burst while moving at all) this is horrible, since the penalty for moving is almost triple dipping.

If the penalty for rune as arcane is so high, how are arc mages so high on the meters on every fight? I think all the complaints are stemming from the fact that people just aren't good at the playstyle, because it is NOT limiting and doesn't effect dps like people claim it does.

If the penalty for rune as arcane is so high, how are arc mages so high on the meters on every fight? I think all the complaints are stemming from the fact that people just aren't good at the playstyle, because it is NOT limiting and doesn't effect dps like people claim it does.

Cause the dps you can pull as arcane atm, is pretty freaking redic, if let stand alone on 1 spot an arcane can top the dps by miles and miles, If arcane would do the same dps with Invocation and had as free movement as Fire... It would be top spec on every single target boss on WoL. And topping dps doesnt mean the spec is all that great.. Its just annoying spec for people who like to push that every little bit, sure if its single target and you got the gear for it, you will prolly top if you can get ~80% or more uptime on RoP

Cause the dps you can pull as arcane atm, is pretty freaking redic, if let stand alone on 1 spot an arcane can top the dps by miles and miles, If arcane would do the same dps with Invocation and had as free movement as Fire... It would be top spec on every single target boss on WoL. And topping dps doesnt mean the spec is all that great.. Its just annoying spec for people who like to push that every little bit, sure if its single target and you got the gear for it, you will prolly top if you can get ~80% or more uptime on RoP

but the thing is whether you move or you stand still there is hardly a difference, especially since there is hardly any movement in any fight this tier