All Activityhttp://www.mormondialogue.org/discover/enThe Non-Imperative for a historical Book of MormonTo be fair to Stephen on this, I think this is a theological debate not a historical debate. So we're not using historical scholarship, we're exploring theologically whether it makes sense or not to view the BOM non-historically.
Debate over history which is where the scholarship and academics come in, can shape the landscape such that we determine whether or not it's worth having this theological discussion. ie if historicity is rock solid, no reason to have the discussion. If it's not, then people are going to look at adopting this non-historical model. But the actual discussion at hand here is a theological one, imo.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:42:32 +0000New bill to require BYU Police to comply with Utah open records lawsPeople in power will very rarely voluntarily let go of their power. If the church believes it can hold onto special privileges without too much negative PR blow back, it will do that. This is the rule, and altruism is the exception to the rule.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:42:32 +0000Change To Missionary Communication Policy: Phone Home On P-Day!Trust the prophets that this is a chosen generation or go with the age-old cliched complaint of the elderly that “this generation is weak and feeble”.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:42:01 +0000New bill to require BYU Police to comply with Utah open records lawsWhat do you mean by "never to defer to the Honor Code system"?Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:34:12 +0000The Non-Imperative for a historical Book of MormonGreat post, @churchistrue!
These are excellent points, I hope that as a Church (capital C) and church (lower case c) we can reach a point where this kind of nuance is accepted. I don't see us as being there yet as I think a majority of both leaders and members subscribe to the view that a non-historical view of the Book of Mormon is an indictment against Joseph Smith as a prophet.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:30:57 +0000How to hire Missionaries to come to your home....Awesome story!Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:23:55 +0000The Non-Imperative for a historical Book of MormonThanks for this write up, I really appreciate it, and I actually found myself agreeing with you more than I normally do. I think the most important point, and something that I feel very strongly about is the whole idea around a non-binary approach to Joseph. People are complicated, they have many things contributing to how they choose to act. To say Joseph was either a fraud or a saint is trying to make a caricature of a real human with multi faceted motivations and environmental factors that are all having an influence on the choices that person makes.
For example, with respect to the BoM production I have been very much persuaded by Ann Taves approach to the golden plates, and the very salient observations she makes in her most recent book on that subject, how there are group dynamics at play that influence the production of the BoM.
As for the evidence for historicity, I don't see any of the key points that Stephen has made as being very strong or particularly insightful. At the end of the day, he's making arguments from a theological perspective and not an analytical one. He believes it necessary to argue for historicity because he believes the church will suffer otherwise. Its a backwards argument with a set conclusion established first, and an attempt to gather evidence to support that position. He's not even attempting any sense of objectivity. This kind of apologetics is poorly done and a throw back to the less rigorous and hard nosed style of the past. I expect that it will actually do more harm for Stephen's cause than good.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:17:38 +0000How to hire Missionaries to come to your home....Wonderful story. Thank you for sharing it.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:08:43 +0000Things that Increase or Diminish FaithGreat point and I know this is where I'm at too.
I love the gospel and I love my Savior. I love my ward and the people who I serve and serve with....they are my family and I look forward to seeing them every week. I have wonderful, dear, Christlike friends there who I cherish and love being around. It strengthens my faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ when I'm with them and serving. There is so much to love about this church!
I have issues with several things, but I've worked through most of them and remained faithful. My testimony is very different today from what it was even 10 or 20 years ago, but it's a strong testimony of the gospel.
I do not like the idol worship that goes on with some of the church leaders as I do believe they are just good men doing the best they can.....not any different than those serving in callings on a local level. I feel that Pres. Nelson truly loves and cares about the members and is making changes that will help them remain at church, serve (locally and on missions), and feel welcome at church. I'm not happy with the overall treatment of the gays (the policy, etc.) and I feel the church needs to come a long ways to combat the abuse that takes place (in every religion but we should do better at screening and training). I'm hopeful more changes regarding these two issues will happen in the future.
So that's my faith in a nutshell
I increase my faith by serving and showing love to others, by living the gospel of Jesus Christ the best that I can.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:02:56 +0000LDS Church won’t oppose Utah LGBT Hate Crimes BillfillerFri, 22 Feb 2019 14:56:47 +0000Mormon church won’t oppose gay conversion therapy banThanks for posting this, Tacenda!
(The comments are interesting to read through too )Fri, 22 Feb 2019 14:54:10 +0000Mormon church won’t oppose gay conversion therapy banWell one of them is a criminal offense (if acted on) and the other one is not, so I would think there is a difference here regarding the law.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 14:51:07 +0000What do we think inspired calling means?Do we really believe in inspired callings in the church? I think we do...when it's convenient. When it's inconvenient I think there tends to be a lot of backtracking as if it's unreasonable to truly expect that an inspired calling means that God wants a certain person serving in a specific calling. That becomes very problematic when you get stories like the bishop in Lehi who was arrested last week for human trafficking and prostitution. It turns out he also had issues years ago in St George when he had to leave his law enforcement job for sxual misconduct. Yet, despite that past misconduct, I am fairly sure that when he was called to serve as bishop in Lehi it was touted as an "inspired" calling.
Inspiration suggests that there is some kind of heavenly help in revealing the person who should serve. It implies that while the individual isn't perfect, they are at least a decent person. Yet again, we have a high profile example of a person with an "inspired" calling behaving badly, both before and during his call as bishop.
https://fox13now.com/2019/02/20/former-vice-squad-cop-arrested-in-valentines-day-prostitution-sting-in-lehi/Fri, 22 Feb 2019 14:36:43 +0000The Non-Imperative for a historical Book of MormonFri, 22 Feb 2019 14:33:22 +0000Statement on Book of Mormon geographyRather than address the specific, detailed criticisms Sorenson provides, and provide a viable, equally detailed alternative that accounts for the 500+ geographic details in the Book of Mormon, label, smear, and distract.
Yep. Gift of discernment, persuasion and pure knowledge, where is thy sting?
By definition, Sorenson's numerous points explaining why the Book of Mormon does not work in a North American setting demonstrate that he is not ignoring it. He's giving his view of problems that any defense ought to account for. And your not accounting for them is, by dictionary definition, ignoring them.
FWIW
Kevin Christensen
Canonsburg, PAFri, 22 Feb 2019 14:20:09 +0000The Non-Imperative for a historical Book of Mormonhttps://www.churchistrue.com/blog/stephen-smoot-on-the-imperative-for-book-of-mormon-historicity/
Most here are probably familiar with Stephen Smoot's 2013 article on the Imperative for a historical Book of Mormon. https://interpreterfoundation.org/blog-the-imperative-for-a-historical-book-of-mormon/
I wrote up a reply, summarizing my disagreements with his approach, and the reasons why I see that taking a non-historical Book of Mormon should be accepted. I'm not trying to tear down belief in a historical Book of Mormon. But I'd like to normalize the process within Mormonism that is somewhat common in other religions, which is to move to metaphorical model of scripture when science and modern scholarship is pushing some people away from literal belief.
This section covers the gist of it.
Integrity of Joseph Smith
The main point Smoot makes in all of this is that the Book of Mormon very clearly states what it is and Joseph Smith clearly stated how it came about: Angel Moroni, ancient gold plates, etc. If we consider the Book of Mormon non-historical, then we must answer why the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith stated otherwise. We must consider Joseph Smith a fraud and a liar or crazy and deluded. All or nothing. No middle ground. If we imply he could have been lying or deluded about these angelic visits and gold plates, then his integrity is gone, and we can’t trust him for anything. He can’t be a prophet.
No, we don’t have to answer that. There are many gospel questions we simply don’t have the answer for. It’s OK to say while I don’t believe the Book of Mormon is historical, I believe Joseph was a prophet, and I neither think he was fraudulent nor deluded, and I have no idea how or why the Book of Mormon was produced the way it was. If critics tell us, “if you believe Jesus Christ was resurrected, you have to tell me scientifically how it happened”, we can say “no idea, I just believe.” If critics demand to know the logic of why we say God answers prayers and is active in our lives yet he’s allowing children to be abused and other atrocities in the world, it’s OK for us to not have a perfect answer for that. Stephen himself says “there are very strange passages in the Book of Mormon that we can’t fully explain or account for today”. We don’t need to explain everything.
Unfortunately, Joseph Smith’s character is not impeccable. It is a very dangerous argument to make it an all or nothing proposition, because a critic can easily turn this around on any number of issues, such as: polygamy, Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates, Zelph, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Kirtland Banking scandal, etc. I don’t think we want to draw a line in the sand and say “Joseph was very clear that an angel with drawn sword commanded him to take many girls in marriage, if he was lying or deluded about that, then EVERYTHING else he revealed is suspect.” “Joseph was clear that he was translating an ancient record written about Abraham. If he was lying or deluded about that, then we can’t trust ANYTHING he did.” Why would God choose Joseph Smith to be the prophet if he did xyz? Critics constantly ask that question, and the perfectly fine answer from Mormon Apologists is “prophets aren’t perfect and you can’t answer for God why he does something a certain way or who he chooses to be prophet.”
There are some alternatives or middle ground that I think are reasonable. Maybe Joseph had a powerful spiritual experience, revelation rushing through his brain, an interaction with God, he was responsible to bring this message to the world. What a huge responsibility. Maybe God didn’t micromanage the process other than to sear in his mind the message and the responsibility. Maybe in a way scholar Ann Taves originally theorized, God transformed plates and divinely sanctioned them in a process similar to the Brother of Jared’s 16 stones. Maybe Joseph made some mistakes along the way. Only One is perfect. Our scriptures are full of stories of prophets completely mucking it up. I’m not saying Joseph did, but it would be OK if he did. There are some middle ground possibilities.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 14:12:07 +0000Mormon church won’t oppose gay conversion therapy banLike I said, I get it.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 13:52:57 +0000Things that Increase or Diminish FaithIt is the type of volunteer work, not the hours. I do not consider proselytizing to be volunteer work for example. How many half-way homes, women's shelters, and soup kitchens does the LDS church own and operate for example? How many drug rehab clinics does it own and operate? I have seen homeless people come to church, and get turned away with nothing to offer them. Tithing is not spent on poor people, it is spent on church buildings - and even that - it is confusing how one could spend say https://www.gymmembershipfees.com/ymca-prices/ $25 per person for YMCA membership - and somehow the YMCA is able to maintain buildings and exercise equip, provide classes by professionals, provide 24/7 service (not just once a week service)... and yet what does the LDS church do with 10%? The YMCA does so much more with their $25 than Mormons do with their 10%.
I make this comparison because the YMCA is a place you can send homeless people too. A homeless person can get a shower, a place to stay, and a job at the YMCA - they are has youth intervention services etc. etc. all for the low low price of $25/month you support a good cause and you get access to exercise equip and classes. http://ymcacolumbus.org/housing Does the Mormon church offer housing and supportive services - they get a lot more $ from their members, so what are they doing with it exactly?
The vast majority of the "service" and "volunteer" work within the Mormon church is given only to Mormons - and only to Mormons in good standing. Mormons are really good at serving themselves and calling it noble.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 13:18:41 +0000What do we think inspired calling means?Good postFri, 22 Feb 2019 13:07:46 +0000Mormon church won’t oppose gay conversion therapy banI am not comparing homosexuals or heterosexuals or trans with pedophiles at all here. I am simply asking how the law would apply to that form of sexual orientation...or is there a problem you see with calling pedophilia a sexual orientation?
There are sexual orientations that are classified as disorders and others that are not. I am wondering if the law takes into account the different categories.
Think of a liquor law that is meant to regulate treatment of customers in restaurants and their rights to be served, but is worded so there might be a problem with refusing a drunk who wanders in off the street. Am I drawing any equivalency between the drunk and the typical sober customers in your view or just wondering if the law differentiates between types of customers?Fri, 22 Feb 2019 11:56:10 +0000What do we think inspired calling means?The reasons a leader may be inspired to call someone are not always clear cut. In one case, I received very clear spiritual direction to call a woman to a leadership position. It was one of the most clear revelations about a calling I received in my whole time as bishop. I was unaware that she was unworthy at the time, and she accepted the calling. Interestingly, it was serving in the calling and participation in ward council that caused her sufficient spiritual awakening/discomfort to come to me and confess and begin the repentance process. She was immediately released when she confessed, but I know that calling was inspired. I believe God inspired me to call her to help her repent.
And just FYI, no innocent parties were harmed as a result of that calling.
Like I said, I think some callings may be uninspired, but I don't agree with blanket statements that no callings come from God. I also disagree that a large percentage of callings are uninspired. I think the vast majority of callings are inspired and a small minority may not be.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 11:29:16 +0000Linear growth in church membershipIf something weird is going on for 25 years, I don't stop wondering why just because longer time scales also exist. For heaven's sake: this is a steady linear trend that persists across a total change of over a hundred standard deviations in the annual change!
A linear function can have any slope, but the size of increase is certainly not irrelevant to whether something is linear. It sounds as though the Taylor series stuff didn't mean anything to you. If it really didn't, we're going to have a hard time discussing functions. Perhaps you could read the Wikipedia article on the subject? It's pretty clear, I think.
At the midpoint of a logistic curve the curve looks linear ... because it is linear, there. A curve can't appear to be linear but be nonlinear deep in its soul. Curves don't have souls. They're just shapes. The way they look is the way they are.
In this case the church membership has not grown linearly throughout its whole life, and it may well have stopped growing linearly in the past few years. Lots of things do show changes over time in the way that they grow. There's always a reason, however. Exponential growth levels off because a population reaches the limit of its food supply, or a predator species proliferates, or something like that. Scientists don't plot logistic curves and then simply sit back smiling as if the curve itself constitutes its own explanation. We ask why the growth is exponential in the early phase, why it straightens out into linearity, and then why it plateaus. We consider each of those questions important. If growth stays linear for an extended period, we wonder what's stabilizing the system in that behavior.
(I can't believe I just wrote "a hundred standard deviations". That's crazy. But the standard deviation in yearly gain is something like 50-60 thousand, and the total gain is something like 9 million. Easily a hundred sigma. Does it really not register how strange this is?)Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:44:02 +0000What do we think inspired calling means?Well of course something is odd! Lol.
Besides the obvious ysa issue... my husband was also called to teach institute. Was told specifically it was directly inspired. I know the man well who called him, we were business partners. He uses that term often and I believe he is generally manipulative in many ways so I don’t take him seriously... besides, institute requires a few qualifications my husband doesn’t possess but doesn’t advertise. So he said no. Besides that, his work has him travel all week long. That’s non negotiable, but the person calling him didn’t know. Not insured imo. You can dice that up but there was no way my husband was going to quit his job to treach a class he wasn’t qualified to teach , because brother brother had said that God wanted this to happen. We had a clear personally inprired answer that it wasn’t our path.
Another questionable calling- or releasing, both just different sides of same coin: I worked in nursery for some time and the leader was not nursery material at all. She was an older professional woman who craved attention, wore very expensive clothing and was annoyed by children. She was very vocal to me about her deep dislike for her assignment and threatened to stop coming. I MAY have mentioned it one week to my husband who mentioned it immediately to his very close friend who was Bishop. She was immediately released and the next Sunday was fast Sunday . She got up and cried in dramatic fashion about how God had known exactly what she needed exactly at thT time. I get it, God works through people- but that’s not how she was experiencing that and I had to leave the chapel as she carried on about the bishop’s outer world revelation.
There was a primary president last year in my ward who was having an affair. No one knew or knows about that - she served her term. I don’t think God endorsed that calling the same way we as a people culturally tend to believe inspiration works. (I THINK culturally we believe inspiration involves worthiness to some degree)
and my best friend married a general authority after he told her that God told HIM to marry her. She was vulnerable. Her husband had died and her next husband abused her and she escaped in dramatic fashion. When GA came on the scene she was a mess and so “god said “ was convincing. He ended up being a dishonest hot mess and the 1st presidency helped her annul. It was all done quietly, obviously.
These are a select few reasons I find the idea that inspiration is used often enough as a form of manipulation to get people to agree to do things.
Let me reiterate, I’m a believer in accepting invitations to serve whenever and wherever it’s possible. We get a lot, and need to give to keep the ball rolling.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:30:38 +0000Mormon church won’t oppose gay conversion therapy banMostly I find homosexuals are deeply offended by the comparison but I do understand the logic.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:55:53 +0000Change To Missionary Communication Policy: Phone Home On P-Day!I believe that the change has come because many of the 18 year olds are homesick. And they are not used to living without their moms or dads. They are most likely having difficulties on their mission because of it. We are now dealing with a new generation who haven't been asked to sacrifice much and who have perhaps been enclosed in a bubble. Of course, not all, but I do think that missionaries were having problems with the work and the discipline. Now they have an outlet to talk about it with mom, dad or sister or brother.
Of course, we should feel sorry for those missionaries that had to go without such a policy. They existed on two calls a year. And these poor souls must be a little a grieved that they missed it by a year or month etc.Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:52:33 +0000