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ricebowl wrote:Rahula needed to masturbate, Ananda needed a whore, how do you want these two young men back then to quarrel with a Buddha about it?

Really?I suppose you have textual evidence of the above?if so, please present it.Thanks.

Without respect lost, answering a question with questions:

How do I have textual evidence of myself masturbating?How do I have textual evidence of you masturbating?How do I have textual evidence of them masturbating?How do I have textual evidence of any living being in the world masturbating?How do I have textual evidence of myself masturbating?

How do I have videographic evidence of myself masturbating?How do I have videographic evidence of you masturbating?How do I have videographic evidence of them masturbating?How do I have videographic evidence of any living being in the world masturbating?How do I have videographic evidence of myself masturbating?

Do I know a monetary transaction when I see it?Do I know a sexual intercourse when I see it?Do I know a social interaction when I see it?

Do I know exertion when I see it?Do I see my own exertion?Do I know infliction when I see it?Do I see my own infliction?Do I know satisfaction when I see it?Do I see my own satisfaction?

Do I know erection when I see it?Do I see my own erection?Do I know masturbation when I see it?Do I see my own masturbation?Do I know satisfaction when I see it?Do I see my own satisfaction?

Do I know expression when I see it?Do I see my own expression?Do I know affliction when I see it?Do I see my own affliction?Do I know satisfaction when I see it?Do I see my own satisfaction?

The Buddha didn't seem particularly concerned whether I was masturbating or otherwise, and the who/what/when/where/why/how/which masturbation happens.Likewise a lay follower such as "me" doesn't seem particularly concerned how others are masturbating or otherwise, and the who/what/when/where/why/how/which masturbation happens.

The point is I am taught asking questions because a question serves a purpose; "what did you had for breakfast this morning", I took a look at my faeces this morning and it was olive drab in colour, an amusing change in colour tones when it was regularly dark brown. I asked myself "what did i had for breakfast this morning" i realise i had taken vermicelli with popiah, vegan meat, some vegetables that included lettuce and cabbage iirc, now the thing is why do I remember this? There is this cause, there is this effect. Now bring in karma again, i do this i get that, i don't do this i don't get that, which is fine. I ate vegan, I pooped olive drab poop, on other days I ate poultry, I pooped dark brown faeces. I seem to be what I eat from my head to my feet, and when that happens I say wow I can see samsara and karma in a human being itself without having supernatural powress.

Now what's wrong with masturbation again?Why does a forum administrator ask me about evidence of masturbation?Now what's wrong with masturbation again?

You were asked to give Sutta quotations to back up your allegations agains the Arahants Rahula and Ananda of masturbation and using a prostitute.

Please do so.

With metta,Chris

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

i don't think right or wrong are particularly relevant to this question; i think this must be a western imputation. rather, i think observing effects of dukkha and tracing them to causes of tanha is more relevant. you know that pain is real by feeling a lot of it; you know that fire burns by putting your hand over it.

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

You were asked to give Sutta quotations to back up your allegations agains the Arahants Rahula and Ananda of masturbation and using a prostitute.

Please do so.

With metta,Chris

Probably this is coming from the Śūraṅgama Sūtra, which I found discussed here.

SETTING

When Ananda was passing a brothel on his begging rounds...

Nothing that supports the claim, but here at least may be the cite. As was said, "...using it to teach an entire Mahayana Sutra..."

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

I have only just come to this thread so I apologise if I am repeating someone else's thoughts. I did start reading the posts, but there are sooo many this is a question I have struggled with myself for a long time.As a layman, i have however, intentionally remained single for some years and I do call myself 'celibate', although, as I say, masturbation is, let's say, a grey area.The whole matter of whether celibacy includes total sexual abstension, or just relational sexual activity is itself one of contention.I certainly don't consider masturbation a violation of the third precept, although errant fantasy, possibly.My main reason for choosing to remain single is in order to give myself the best chance of developing my own non-attachment and since I don't have to 'restrain' myself (I'm actually happier single), I see no contradiction.This brings me to my main point.If one has to repress one's 'sexual needs' in order to adhere to an idea of what one should do, then this, itself, creates an attachment, perhaps more so, than simply jacking one off would do.After a vipassana course I attended some years ago, an 18 year old student shared that he was very confused as he thought that he might not be able to ever have children if he made vipassana a part of his life.It was explained to him, that it wasn't the partaking of, or even the enjoyment of, an act, but the attachment to it, that created dukkha.I think there will perhaps come the time when I have moved nearer to enlightenment where the desire for physical gratification simply wouldn't arise anymore, and so, I would no longer masturbate, but for now at least, I have managed to not worry so much about it, having realised, as I have said, that the worry itself, was causing more dukkha than simply addressing the physical desire in as non-attached way as possible, would do.

Metta

Andy BarnesMy comments are by nature, subjective interpretations from my mind. As such, they are never wrong, They are as they are. They are never right, They are as they are.

what not masturbating as a rule does is gives you something to commit yourself to, namely, brahmacariya. but that's not limited to not orgasming at all so if that's what your commitming yourself to then there's no need to focus on that. all commitments are in an objective sense arbitrary. in a subjective sense perhaps the only source for genuine meaning.

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

which would be the more karma producing act, self pleasure or drinking alcohol? And i don't mean drinking to access or self pleasuring everyday i mean taking 2 beers a weekand self pleasuring once a week, in moderation.Be happyknighter

C'mon people!! Most young people these days are addicted to porn, with the attendant fantasies interfering with their relationships, normal sensuality, etc. What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real.

Wanking should be fine, minus a rampant porn habit. Just don't get addicted to other men's wives, whatever else you do

MichaelThe thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

C'mon people!! Most young people these days are addicted to porn, with the attendant fantasies interfering with their relationships, normal sensuality, etc. What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real.

Didn't you just name the harm of the "occasional wank"? and then you say what's the harm in it....you contradicted yourself in a matter of two sentences. It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not. This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation! You're supposed to encourage him in doing good things that will truly make him happy and not delude him by saying "oh every now and then is fine" Verse 121 of the Dhammapada : Think lightly not of evil,‘It will not come to me’,for by the falling of water dropsa water jar is filled.The fool with evil fills himself,he soaks up little by little. And I kid you not the related story to this verse is about MASTURBATION.

ihrjordan wrote:This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation!

Normal human sensuality includes cross-gender relationships, same-gender relationships, and masturbation throughout for both genders.

In Buddhism, renunciation of sensuality is a goal, but trying to say that masturbation is opposed to

ihrjordan wrote:normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend

^^ 'normal' sensuality is contradictory as well as simply false.

---

Masturbation is within the spectrum of healthy human sexual behavior, but the whole range of healthy human sexual behavior also includes asexuality, given the proper motive. In other words, fear and loathing of masturbation is not a proper motive, just as fear and loathing of sexuality in general is not proper, and singling out masturbation/non-procreative sexuality/etc. as particularly problematic vs. other sexual expressions is altogether off-course.

---

This goes to the OP in terms of trying to assess the specific weight of particular acts. The specifics are unconjecturable, but the general trend will be that greed is no good, in any situation, and trying to finagle a route through the least-bad is a speculation without wholesome motive. Whether to engage with this sexual expression instead of that one, or inebriation instead of sexuality, or this precept violation instead of that one... it's an interesting approach to ethics, to be sure.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

I'm not opposed to or "afraid" of sensuality as you say. I'm just not going to sugar-coat this. All I'm saying is instead of indulging in the objects of your desire, try learning about them! You will come to see they do not bring you happiness and EVENTUALLY you will WANT to give them up naturally. I'm very surprised that most of you are taking a stance on this that is similar to that of a modern counselor.... What most of you are saying is the same thing as when a counselor tells someone to "hit a pillow when you get angry" and I'm sure that most of us would agree that's not how one should handle a problem. So why is it any different with masturbation nevermind alcohol? It seems like you guys are trying to make Buddhism user friendly and put a lighter interpretation of the teachings on him; which isn't a good way of encouraging goodness if you ask me.... It would be like if a teenage girl said to you "I like to cut myself because it gives me a rush of adrenaline and helps me to feel" would you say to her "it's ok as long as you're not hurting anyone else " of course you wouldn't...and btw i was quoting someone when I said "normal sensuality". Just because something is natural doesn't mean it has it's place.. here I was trying to promote the renunciate path without scaring him off by saying that it would be better to give up masurbation and stick with what society would call "normal sensuality" as a way of limiting yourself w/o driving yourself crazy by way of repression.. how is this an unwholesome act on my part again?

And I said wife or girlfriend in the same way The Buddha would address a group of heterosexual monks. Without having every possible outlet for sexuality in mind at the time, not exactly a point of argument if you ask me.

ihrjordan wrote:What most of you are saying is the same thing as when a counselor tells someone to "hit a pillow when you get angry" and I'm sure that most of us would agree that's not how one should handle a problem. It seems like you guys are trying to make Buddhism user friendly and put a lighter interpretation of the teachings on him;

according to my tentative conclusions based on some observations there's a tendency with the Westerners to view the Dhamma teachings as a kind of psychotherapy rather than rigorous spiritual discipline, as those which are not meant to eradicate and uproot suffering but make the experience a little bit more tolerable

as some say 'if it's forbidden, but the desire is too strong, then it's allowed'

I think the key here is a regular meditation practice, as well as mindfulness during everyday activities. When the mind has more peacefulness and clarity, then there is less of that restless, reaching out to sense objects for satisfaction.

ihrjordan wrote:What most of you are saying is the same thing as when a counselor tells someone to "hit a pillow when you get angry" and I'm sure that most of us would agree that's not how one should handle a problem. It seems like you guys are trying to make Buddhism user friendly and put a lighter interpretation of the teachings on him;

according to my tentative conclusions based on some observations there's a tendency with the Westerners to view the Dhamma teachings as a kind of psychotherapy rather than rigorous spiritual discipline, as those which are not meant to eradicate and uproot suffering but make the experience a little bit more tolerable

as some say 'if it's forbidden, but the desire is too strong, then it's allowed'

My thoughts exactly. Go in 100% or turn back because trying to have your cake of sensuality and eat it to is a recipe for disaster (no pun intended)