No means for members to impeach or recall board members, no means for club members have any say about dispersal of club funds, and no way for club members to escape once they are in? Sounds like the makings of a dictatorship/fascist/communist state.

No means to recall board members is an issue, but I trust the other board members to remove another member if the majority of at-large members want it. In reality, the board member would probably resign if inundated with negative posts on this board, as has already happened. [/quote:8nt63c4g] Having only met one of the current SC I can't honestly say I trust them, though on general principle, yes I trust most people to behave in a rational and honest fashion...most people. The problem is that not everybody is a nice person no matter how much we want them to be. That why we have laws and courts. If everyone was a nice person we wouldn't need courts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Griswolds

Club members do have a say in dispersal of funds, and everything else, indirectly by who we vote for. I know and trust just about everybody in this community.

Again, there is that trust issue. That's great for the community ... until someone abuses the trust. I'd like to see a clause in place that would at least allow for members to request funds such as what Tech_guy asked for, so that if the board didn't want to do it and the membership as a whole did, it could get approval. And the reverse of course for when the board wanted to spend money, say anything in excess of $300 or maybe 10% of the annual budget, on something that the club members don't like or want. Waiting for the next board member election could be too late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Griswolds

I think we can all "escape" simply by not coming to this site anymore, not voting, not attending functions, etc. I doubt the cache police will come knocking on the door.

It's not the "cache police" I'm concerned with. I can cache without ever being a part of the AGA, something that is seeming more and more appealing. The concern is that if for instance this club instituted dues, something that is all too likely when budgets shrink and coin sales don't meet expectations, there is no way for a person who has logged onto the message board to post to opt out of the club for at least one year. meaning they would be bound by a legal contractual obligation to pay those dues for at least a year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Griswolds

Dictatorship/fascist/communist state????? I thought we were voting on a hobby, not a new form of government.

Okay that comment was probably out of place, but it was to make a point, though actually a formalized club is a form a government. Small, localized, and limited to those who chose to be members, but no-the-less a governmental body. That's why the bylaws in the first place, they are the governing rules of the organization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Griswolds

I've met a lot people caching and at events, and I have serious doubts that any of them are out to take over Arkansas Geocaching or embezzle all the funds. I guess I lean toward the trustful type, rather than the paranoid type.

I doubt anybody though Hitler was going to massacre millions when they elected him to office either, but that doesn't change the fact that he was the freely elected leader of Germany during that era. Fully and legally, and with full voting approval of the populace.

I'm generally the trustful type myself, but when it comes to legally binding documents I've learned to cover my #$$.

Mountainborn calls it subversive nitpicking, and tries to divert attention from these potentially dangerous facts under the guise of patriotism to the club, but that doesn't change them. Try going to court sometime, sit in and watch a few cases and see how much good trusting people does you.

AR_kayaker

12-27-2006, 02:02 PM

LongDogs

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar_kayaker

I doubt anybody though Hitler was going to massacre millions when they elected him to office either, but that doesn't change the fact that he was the freely elected leader of Germany during that era. Fully and legally, and with full voting approval of the populace.

So which one of us do you think is planning to kill all the geocachers and embezzle the funds? Or is it all of us?

You seem to be implying that all the rest of the membership are fools and only you can see our true evil plan.

Clearly something has happened somewhere down the line to sour you on the idea of an organization, or its current leadership, but when funds are raised, SOMEBODY has to be in charge of them, and you need to trust SOMEBODY. When decisions have to be made, somebody has to make them. We will never get anywhere if we put every little thing up for an election that is open 30, 60, or 90 days before responding to a need. This doesn't mean we don't care what the membership wants. Of course we care!

I tried not to respond to this. I don't want this important thread to degenerate into a flame war. I hope everyone who gets worried by your post will read all of your prior posts, and realize this is a pattern. Don't get me wrong, you've made some valuable posts, but you've also thrown lots of dirt in the direction of the organization and the current steering committee.

As we've said before, our proposed bylaws are pretty much the same as all of the other successful geocaching organizations, and were based on the recommendations of several other geocaching groups. We didn't just make this up for our own benefit, and I for one, am not out to take over the world.

None of us have 100% of our time to devote to this, but we are all trying our best. Accusations and mistrust are certainly not encouraging.

My comments are just my opinion, I'm not speaking for the SC in this post.

12-28-2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongDogs

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar_kayaker

I doubt anybody though Hitler was going to massacre millions when they elected him to office either, but that doesn't change the fact that he was the freely elected leader of Germany during that era. Fully and legally, and with full voting approval of the populace.

So which one of us do you think is planning to kill all the geocachers and embezzle the funds? Or is it all of us?

You seem to be implying that all the rest of the membership are fools and only you can see our true evil plan.

No I don't think you are all fools, but appearantly I am the only person around that understands the literary concept of the hyperbolic example. Obviously I don't expect anyone here to kill off millions. Hitler is simply a well known historical example of someone who abused legally obtained power in ways the people who gave him that power never intended.

What you don't seem to grasp is that the bylaws you have proposed, if adopted, will become a legally binding contract on all members of this message board and that means ever effort should be taken to head off problems before they occur. The court system doesn't let you go back later and say "I didn't mean it that way." about contracts after you "sign" them and in this case you are asking the members to hand over power in theoretical perpetuity with the only way out requiring a year of silence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongDogs

I tried not to respond to this. I don't want this important thread to degenerate into a flame war. I hope everyone who gets worried by your post will read all of your prior posts, and realize this is a pattern. Don't get me wrong, you've made some valuable posts, but you've also thrown lots of dirt in the direction of the organization and the current steering committee.

Hey, I'm not the one using political campaign tactics, like taking the most inflammatory remark I can find out of context and using it to detract from actual discussion of the issues. My pattern? Sure, I've always had a pattern of spotlighting stumbling blocks. Hopefully before the cement has dried.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongDogs

None of us have 100% of our time to devote to this, but we are all trying our best. Accusations and mistrust are certainly not encouraging.

Trust isn't a part of legal contracts, if everybody could be trusted we wouldn't need them. And what pray tell have I accused anyone of?

Lets get back to the issues, shall we?

The bylaws NEED an escape clause for members to leave anytime they choose, effective as soon as they make that choice known. That way if a less trustworthy person or person(s) should implement some unfavorable rules on the club membership, the membership can leave.

I would like to see the various levels of the board be held more accountable over the finance issues than "oh, two years from now we won't elect person x again..." at least in regards to large sums of money.

AR_kayaker

12-28-2006, 04:37 PM

LongDogs

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar_kayaker

The bylaws NEED an escape clause for members to leave anytime they choose, effective as soon as they make that choice known. That way if a less trustworthy person or person(s) should implement some unfavorable rules on the club membership, the membership can leave.

Again, I'm not speaking for the committee, but this is based on my assessment of how things stand.

I believe the bylaws can be amended, but changing them now, while the vote is open, would require throwing out all the votes, posting new bylaws, and starting the voting cycle over. I do not believe it is within my rights to discard the current votes. At this point the bylaws are in the hands of the voters to approve as is, or reject as is, and it would be an abuse of power to yank them out from under the voters, denying them the right to approve or reject them. It would be an even worse abuse to change them after most of the voting members have already voted on them.

If they are rejected, then the next step is to decide what changes should be made. If they are approved, then we can submit for vote an amendment allowing a member to leave.

All that said, I for one will allow anyone to leave at any time. If we ever find the need to have dues, then anyone who leaves would not owe any further dues. I would be astonished if the proposed board would see it any other way.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what "leaving" means other than perhaps having your name taken of of some list. I don't see how there is anything that forces anyone to visit the site periodically, and I see nothing in the bylaws forbidding a member to leave. Also the bylaws specifically state that there are no dues.

12-28-2006, 09:03 PM

Clark~Griswold

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar_kayaker

[The bylaws NEED an escape clause for members to leave anytime they choose, effective as soon as they make that choice known. That way if a less trustworthy person or person(s) should implement some unfavorable rules on the club membership, the membership can leave.

This is getting rediculous. The "Escape Clause" is the Red 'X' in the upper right hand corner of your computer screen. You or anyone else can use it any time you want.

12-29-2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Griswolds

This is getting rediculous. The "Escape Clause" is the Red 'X' in the upper right hand corner of your computer screen. You or anyone else can use it any time you want.

Actually no, in accordance with Article II section 2 of the bylaws that doesn't work. "...Once the applicant has registered, the applicant shall be considered a member of ArkGeo. Membership revocation shall require a majority vote by the Executive Committee."

And it seems I misread something earlier, there is actually NO way for a member to leave the club voluntarily. Not coming to the message board for a year simply stops you from being an active member.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongDogs

Honestly, I'm not even sure what "leaving" means other than perhaps having your name taken of of some list. I don't see how there is anything that forces anyone to visit the site periodically, and I see nothing in the bylaws forbidding a member to leave. Also the bylaws specifically state that there are no dues.

Leaving means removal of any obligations to the legal contract created by the bylaws, and as far as dues, legally speaking the Board can implement dues or amend the bylaws at any time in accordance with:

Article IX - Bylaws
The Board of ArkGeo will be solely responsible for the bylaws of ArkGeo. The Board may adopt, amend, or repeal the bylaws with a majority vote of approval by the Board.

The only out would be if the new rule violated some state or federal statute. That's ANY rule! $100 monthly dues, no placement of caches without board approval, anything at all that would fall under the perview of the club and that's an awful lot of power to give anyone without so much as a way out of the contract. That's like handing someone a power of attorney that they can pass on to someone else with no way for you to revoke it. Even if you trust the person you give it to, you have no way to be sure you'll trust the next person or the person after that.

12-29-2006, 03:55 PM

grzz51

When I registered to vote it asked for my date of birth. My birth month is Feb, but the list had March twice . :? I choose the first March hoping it would all come out in the wash..lol

12-29-2006, 04:38 PM

LongDogs

Quote:

Originally Posted by grzz51

When I registered to vote it asked for my date of birth. My birth month is Feb, but the list had March twice . :? I choose the first March hoping it would all come out in the wash..lol

Now that is weird. That shouldn't happen. The month name thing is a system function on the host server.

At any rate, it would still have given you February if you selected the 2nd one in the list, regardless of what it was showing, and I verified that it did.

I can't seem to make it happen again. Please if anyone else gets it to happen let me know and I'll rework the code to not use that particular month name function.

12-29-2006, 04:51 PM

LongDogs

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar_kayaker

The only out would be if the new rule violated some state or federal statute. That's ANY rule! $100 monthly dues, no placement of caches without board approval, anything at all that would fall under the perview of the club and that's an awful lot of power to give anyone without so much as a way out of the contract. That's like handing someone a power of attorney that they can pass on to someone else with no way for you to revoke it. Even if you trust the person you give it to, you have no way to be sure you'll trust the next person or the person after that.

I just don't know what to say here. :roll: If you really think that is what we are all about here, then are you sure you want to be a part of this (or any) group? You seem intent on reading a lot more into this than it is.

Like I said before, if the vote on the bylaws fails, we'll address it in the revision. If it doesn't, we can address it as an amemdment if the majority of the membership wants it. At this point, those are the options.