Be loved by it. Then you will know what love is. It is deep, genuine, focused and intense.

As Extraverted Feeling is all about the feelings of others, it is selfless by definition. Whether it's deep, genuine, focused, and intense is up to the person as Fe can be as shallow, disingenuous, and unfocused as Fi, but I will concede that it will more often than not, be intense, as Fe is directed away, not within.

I seriously don't see how it's hard to grasp Fe or Fi (even if it is just in theory) but then I have been analyzing this crap for the past two years. Fe and Fi users typically want similar things but just go about it in different ways.

The problem isnt really grasping the abstract Fe/Fi and if you believe its just a theory then it makes it even harder to recognize and learn. Its about understanding it in person, hands on, experiencing the difference. Not about talking about what Fe/Fi is with people who are, but just dealing with problems, living life, talking about real stuff, real issues. I frequently talk to an ENFP IRL. We dont see the same things, we dont have the same focus, and we have different reasons for pretty much everything. Alot of things we agree on the outcome or the right vs wrong when it comes to people values, bu the way we get there or the things that go through our mind are extremely different. I cant decide anything for them, or make a judgement on their behalf because I have no clue what they see or how they judge. I simply have the option to accept or not accept. Another NFP I talk to outside of here is more awkward, we are to different, in such different places in life that we just dont have much to talk about.

Fi/Fe really do want/need different things. On the whole yes in a flat concrete world they want the same things, but when you bring in priorities, securities, issues, fears, what pulls them, responses, etc. The flatness goes away and you get to see the real difference between Fe and Fi. Simple example. If someones wants are another persons needs and vice versa, but you dont yet understand the difference between want and need. The combined list will be identical until those people go through life and begin to seperate them out into wants/needs, cant stand/can deal with., etc.

The problem isnt really grasping the abstract Fe/Fi and if you believe its just a theory then it makes it even harder to recognize and learn. Its about understanding it in person, hands on, experiencing the difference. Not about talking about what Fe/Fi is with people who are, but just dealing with problems, living life, talking about real stuff, real issues. I frequently talk to an ENFP IRL. We dont see the same things, we dont have the same focus, and we have different reasons for pretty much everything. Alot of things we agree on the outcome or the right vs wrong when it comes to people values, bu the way we get there or the things that go through our mind are extremely different. I cant decide anything for them, or make a judgement on their behalf because I have no clue what they see or how they judge. I simply have the option to accept or not accept. Another NFP I talk to outside of here is more awkward, we are to different, in such different places in life that we just dont have much to talk about.

Fi/Fe really do want/need different things. On the whole yes in a flat concrete world they want the same things, but when you bring in priorities, securities, issues, fears, what pulls them, responses, etc. The flatness goes away and you get to see the real difference between Fe and Fi. Simple example. If someones wants are another persons needs and vice versa, but you dont yet understand the difference between want and need. The combined list will be identical until those people go through life and begin to seperate them out into wants/needs, cant stand/can deal with., etc.

I am surprised that you still are willing to reply to my posts, lol. So anyways, thank you for putting the situation into more grounded terms. You're right, I was too wrapped up in the abstract side of it and was putting into too simplistic terms.

To be fair, I was talking from experience. I have known 4 IXFPs closely and have known 2 INFPs and 3 EXFPs below the surface. For the most part, I got along fine with them with a few bumps in the road. I shared a lot of values with most of them even though we preferred different functions and respected each other's different way of going about it. This is my really short (probably illogical ) reasoning but yeah this isn't a hardcore dead serious discussion.

As Extraverted Feeling is all about the feelings of others, it is selfless by definition. Whether it's deep, genuine, focused, and intense is up to the person as Fe can be as shallow, disingenuous, and unfocused as Fi, but I will concede that it will more often than not, be intense, as Fe is directed away, not within.

Yeah I think Fe and Fi are both capable of fucking with other people for their own amusement, though.

A person with sick Fe will still respond and seek connection with others and attention from others, but will then openly claim the disconnect and distance that others are accusing Fe of (I know I have actually had these conversations with Fe users whose behavior - consistently responsive and actively attention/connection seeking - did not match up with their words of "I don't really care.") It's very disconcerting, and feels manipulative. It can drive an Fi user to tears. I know from personal experience.

Fi on the other hand will just sort of take sadistic glee in messing with people, which will appear more openly evil or selfish to *some people*, but it's still a cover for anger/mistrust/pain in both cases, I think.

The problem isnt really grasping the abstract Fe/Fi and if you believe its just a theory then it makes it even harder to recognize and learn. Its about understanding it in person, hands on, experiencing the difference. Not about talking about what Fe/Fi is with people who are, but just dealing with problems, living life, talking about real stuff, real issues. I frequently talk to an ENFP IRL. We dont see the same things, we dont have the same focus, and we have different reasons for pretty much everything. Alot of things we agree on the outcome or the right vs wrong when it comes to people values, bu the way we get there or the things that go through our mind are extremely different. I cant decide anything for them, or make a judgement on their behalf because I have no clue what they see or how they judge. I simply have the option to accept or not accept. Another NFP I talk to outside of here is more awkward, we are to different, in such different places in life that we just dont have much to talk about.

Fi/Fe really do want/need different things. On the whole yes in a flat concrete world they want the same things, but when you bring in priorities, securities, issues, fears, what pulls them, responses, etc. The flatness goes away and you get to see the real difference between Fe and Fi. Simple example. If someones wants are another persons needs and vice versa, but you dont yet understand the difference between want and need. The combined list will be identical until those people go through life and begin to seperate them out into wants/needs, cant stand/can deal with., etc.

Just because you have a problem with one, doesn't mean you will have a problem with more, or all, of the same type.
Nor do you even know if someone's type is accurate, to begin with. I don't just take your word that the person is ENFP, INFP, or any kind of P.

Just because you have a problem with one, doesn't mean you will have a problem with more, or all, of the same type.
Nor do you even know if someone's type is accurate, to begin with. I don't just take your word that the person is ENFP, INFP, or any kind of P.

Hell, my INFP buddy got typed as ESTJ by co-workers.
Classic.

I have actually thought about the second NFP being STJ. She has very dominant STJ traits and she is married to an ISTJ. The "testing" she does though is more along the lines of NFP testing. The NFPs will know what I am talking about. My wife has also joked that we should swap husband/wife because her ISTJ is much more list/clean/order and I am more like this NFP in regards to things that are more P related.

And yes, I'm the first to admit that, growing up with some rather..unhealthy Fe-users has lefts its allergic reactions with me. Guilttripping (which Fidelia and OMT have thankfully demystified finally for me), oppressing my sense of identity, constantly telling me what the 'proper' thing to do is and telling me that I'm weird and I need to get over myself already..ya know, it tends to frustrate a person. It feels like I'm to change who I am just to make them more comfortable being around me. And when I try not to be around them, they make sure they *are* around me coz 'they care so much'.

I'm sorry but that through Fi-Te glasses, just feels like blatant emotional manipulation and not as love at all. You're not giving me even the space to be me as you're insisting I be around you 24/7. And, it's incredibly hard for me to grasp how you yourself can be yourself that way, constantly constrained by social rules (yes, that is how it feels to us). It's only here that I came to understand why those mechanisms work that way for Fe-users, and I'm *still* learning on that. So yes, feel free to know that some Fi-users, myself included, are weary with and wary of Fe at times, because it can really rub us the wrong way. However, that doesn't mean I feel the need to belittle it. Just to vent on it. And, share how it's perceived by me.

Okay, I think I’m getting this. The need to disparage ‘Fe’ is really about having an ax to grind with people imposing thoughtless rules about social behavior on you, and the tendency to be manipulative (trying to make you feel ‘thoughtless’ or ‘selfish’ for not adhering to a bunch of social rules that are- more often than not- mindless in the first place)? Does that seem to define it, or is that another over-simplification? I can see how ‘wanting to paint one’s own point of view in a better light’- like two little girls on a playground in new dresses, and one feeling the need to make the other’s dress look ugly in order to make her own look better- is an over-simplification. That’s really how it looked at first- but that’s precisely why I started this thread, to test the accuracy of my assumptions. It took me a while to ‘get’ that it was really about an underlying resent towards certain controlling behaviors because those behaviors keep being referred to as ‘Fe’ behaviors, and I kept feeling wholly distracted by the need to point out that ‘controlling, shallow, fake and/or manipulative’ aren’t essential attributes of Fe (just like narcissism, self-absorption and ego-centricity aren’t essential attributes of Fi- they’re simply unfortunate possible weaknesses).

I can understand the underlying resent: both in the sense that I think I kind of do the same thing with Te (in the way I refer to Te heavy argument as a caveman’s approach to dialogue), and in the way that I also actually resent having someone impose mindless rules of etiquette (with accompanying guilt-trip) on me. Something tells me that I just haven’t felt anywhere near the same depth of resent for the latter, though. It annoys the bejeezus out of me, but I can generally just shake it off once the person is out of range- it must be a lot more difficult for people inclined toward Fi to do that.

Originally Posted by Satine

And yes, in the attempt to grasp Fe, you'll find some people saying things that are seemingly belittling. But if they are at that point trying to understand the differences and get a grasp of what Fe (something foreign) is...cut them some slack. Or rather, tell them how you'd prefer it to be worded

I don’t think any one person has a right to tell another person when they ‘should’ or ‘should not’ feel belittled. We can either decide that someone else feels belittled too easily and write off responsibility for having caused it, or we can decide to better understand why the person feels belittled. It’s all about taking responsibility for that choice. You know? I mean, it’s available to start a thread- asking Fe types why it makes them feel personally belittled when you throw insults at the Fe- if you really want to understand why it’s such a problem. In the end, it isn’t that you’re ‘wording’ something the ‘wrong’ way; it’s that these Fe/Fi battles seem to be more about wanting to be understood than being willing to consider the other side and meet somewhere in the middle. And when that happens, it’s just a cluster-f#ck of people clubbing each other over the head with their own opinions until everyone’s worn out.

Originally Posted by paisley1

As Extraverted Feeling is all about the feelings of others, it is selfless by definition. Whether it's deep, genuine, focused, and intense is up to the person as Fe can be as shallow, disingenuous, and unfocused as Fi, but I will concede that it will more often than not, be intense, as Fe is directed away, not within.

Absolutely. As many people have already touched on in this thread: my own irl experience is that Fe or Fi really has practically nothing to do with how genuinely caring a person ends up being- that it’s entirely incumbent on the thoughtfulness and mindfulness with which a person actually applies their affections to people outside of themselves.

A lot of why this topic sticks in my craw is that I can see equal amounts of “genuine” caring on both sides of the fence (as I can also see equal amounts of phony “caring” as well). The quantity of “genuine” caring is the same, it’s just dispensed differently [breadth vs. depth (?)]. It’s just really a shame that there can’t even be a discussion about the differences in the way the types dispense their caring because the way ‘Fe’ keeps getting put on a Catherine Wheel for people to unleash their pent up resent (when it isn’t even really about Fe in the first place).

Okay, I think I’m getting this. The need to disparage ‘Fe’ is really about having an ax to grind with people imposing thoughtless rules about social behavior on you, and the tendency to be manipulative (trying to make you feel ‘thoughtless’ or ‘selfish’ for not adhering to a bunch of social rules that are- more often than not- mindless in the first place)? Does that seem to define it, or is that another over-simplification? I can see how ‘wanting to paint one’s own point of view in a better light’- like two little girls on a playground in new dresses, and one feeling the need to make the other’s dress look ugly in order to make her own look better- is an over-simplification. That’s really how it looked at first- but that’s precisely why I started this thread, to test the accuracy of my assumptions. It took me a while to ‘get’ that it was really about an underlying resent towards certain controlling behaviors because those behaviors keep being referred to as ‘Fe’ behaviors, and I kept feeling wholly distracted by the need to point out that ‘controlling, shallow, fake and/or manipulative’ aren’t essential attributes of Fe (just like narcissism, self-absorption and ego-centricity aren’t essential attributes of Fi- they’re simply unfortunate possible weaknesses).

I can understand the underlying resent: both in the sense that I think I kind of do the same thing with Te (in the way I refer to Te heavy argument as a caveman’s approach to dialogue), and in the way that I also actually resent having someone impose mindless rules of etiquette (with accompanying guilt-trip) on me. Something tells me that I just haven’t felt anywhere near the same depth of resent for the latter, though. It annoys the bejeezus out of me, but I can generally just shake it off once the person is out of range- it must be a lot more difficult for people inclined toward Fi to do that.

Is it part of Fe to you? I dunno..but yeah, those things really grate on me. I just came back from my family. For years they commented on my appearance as it was not 'up to standard' to them. This time, I actually did something about the one issue that bugged them so for so long. Not perfect, but still. Instead they picked something else in my appearance to bitch about. My hair. How I'm getting too old to have it that platinum. Oh, and let's not forget my birthmark which my dad mistook for a fungus. I'm not kidding you. Only later did the change I made come up. And then it was in passing like, oh..you actually did something about that? Ok *next topic*. That just makes me wanna scream, and sigh. And never be near them again.

At the same time, I see them having fun together and doing grouphugs and laughing and enjoying the kids and I wonder if I'm somehow missing something. How I am that f*cking clueless, somehow. Coz they do tease each other with comments like that as well, though they seem less...tense and serious than with me. Every time I relax around them, as I wanna get into this and *fit in*, the comments come out of nowhere and I wonder what I did to deserve to feel judged like that.

You say in your next point nobody should get to say how another feels and that one should take responsibilty for their actions. How is it then, that Fe-users somehow tell you to get over yourself when you address that you don't appreciate their comments. Again, I'm not attacking you, I'm just...I guess, I'm trying to understand, trying to somehow not get hurt when seeing them. Trying to make sense of Fe.

Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate

I don’t think any one person has a right to tell another person when they ‘should’ or ‘should not’ feel belittled. We can either decide that someone else feels belittled too easily and write off responsibility for having
caused it, or we can decide to better understand why the person feels belittled. It’s all about taking responsibility for that choice. You know? I mean, it’s available to start a thread- asking Fe types why it makes them feel personally belittled when you throw insults at the Fe- if you really want to understand why it’s such a problem. In the end, it isn’t that you’re ‘wording’ something the ‘wrong’ way; it’s that these Fe/Fi battles seem to be more about wanting to be understood than being willing to consider the other side and meet somewhere in the middle. And when that happens, it’s just a cluster-f#ck of people clubbing each other over the head with their own opinions until everyone’s worn out.

As Poki pointed out...the devil is in the details and as tedious as those threads can get, I did learn a lot from them. Granted, I'm nowhere near where I wanna end up, but still further along than I'd ever have gotten on my own.

As for someone telling you how to feel, you're absolutely right. Nobody should tell you how to feel. However, I disagree with you about where the responsibility for the invoked feeling lies. That too seems to be a difference between Fi and Fe-users. I don't blame someone else usually (unless I've already repeatedly asked not to do something as it hurts me, see above!), for making me feel a certain way. They're just being themselves and they cannot read my mind or know what buttons are going to cause what response, though some common sense is of course to be applied. So, I take responsibility for my own feelings and will try and neutralize them, giving people the benefit of the doubt and maintaining harmony.

I will say I'm sorry when I've hurt someone, however, I am sorry about the fact that I accidentily hurt them, not about telling them what I think. And I will explain to you why I did what I did, so you too can understand where I come from, as well as in the hopes that you'll do the same, so we can avoid this in the future (Te-approach as Orobas calls it). I however do refuse to feel guilty about what happened and take full responsibility for it. We're both adults and accidents will happen. Surely we can negotiate for a better outcome next time, and surely we can understand that these things happen. In case this is harsh, I know that this isn't how Fe-users work. Ask Onemoretime about this, I've had this convo with him as well

It's actually a pretty interesting difference between Fi(Te) and Fe(Ti)-users, I'd say. It's the intention behind the action that decides blame or guilt to me. Not the action itself. And that's apparently very much different with Fe-users.

Note how even now I'm not appologizing for using the words that I did, and the words you sort of took offense over. I'm explaining to you why I used them the way I did and how I do believe that to be ok. My intent was never to hurt you, or to oppress you, tell you what to feel. I'd never do such a thing. My intend was to explain to you why Fi-users may seem belittling to you despite not having said intent. (man, this is getting meta upon meta ).

Know that I do not mean any offense with this and I do appologize if this rubs you the wrong way