28yo, 6'4"ish (193cm) & about 93KG (205 lbs). I'm pretty weak when it comes to lifting at the moment. 14 weeks ago I didn't know what a squat or deadlift is. The last three months I've been winging it through workouts (as you might remember from my last thread), but for the last 4 weeks I've been following a strict program (sticking to it, and making strength gains, still in a caloric deficit, for now).

I'm taking this week off lifting to deload, then next week will get a baseline for my main lifts to start a 531 program the following week.

I know a lot of people shy away from calorie counting and macro splits, but I like to do it that way. I'm a chronic overeater, and I want to try add mass with clean dense calories, and I want to know whats going in, so if something isn't right, I can adjust accordingly.

I'm not sold on some of the assistance exercises I have chosen.. I can tell you what I am sold on.. Leg presses, hypers, lat pulls, db rows, and at least some form of curls (BB curls or DB hammers) once a week.

I can't foresee overtraining being an issue, I am doing more work now, on half the calories, and I feel great. My sleep and routine is highly regimented, asleep and awake at the same hours, training at same time of day etc..

Seeking opinions on lower body days whether the ab/ob work is too much to add in when I've already got two assistance exercises? Drop an assistance exercise for ab work? Also my ab/ob work would consist mainly of weighted sit ups, db side bends, hanging leg raises and planks.

Let the vitriol spew forth

_________________You'll never walk alone, safe in the wide open arms of hell.

suggest 3 x 8 for accessories for muscle growth. have a low intensity aero day, or rest. exercised muscles grow when they've got nothing else to do.mix up accessories if you're not sold on some of them, just come back to them in reasonable time to monitor progress.consider linear programming for major exercises until you max out, then 531ing it. give it a shot for 6 weeks and see what happens.

I'm a little curious about your diet. You claim a 30/20/50 split which is high protein/low fat. The only way to get this split is with a lot of whey or other supplements. It's not healthy or effective in the long term. Some follow a diet like this when cutting for BB competition. Better to get your protein from meat, fish and eggs, and if you tolerate it, full fat dairy. This will naturally provide more fat with the protein. The saturated fats will help you build muscle. Don't be afraid of it. The fat will also provide energy and reduce your carb needs. Protein only works too a point, you may not lose muscle, but your gains will suffer.

_________________Stu Ward_________________Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~HippocratesStrength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley_________________Thanks TimD

Rob- I still want to do conditioning twice a week at least, even if that is at the expense of maximum muscle growth. Do it after a lift and have 3 rest days? Or do it in the AM on lifting days?? Also you recommend less volume for growth?? It bears saying that the 5x15 is high volume/less intensity. Does that alter your opinion at all?

Stu- I'm getting approx 850 cal a day from fat. I eat mostly lean cuts of meat, so my fat comes from salmon ommelettes, whole eggs, and dairy. I could increase my fat from whole eggs as I'm taking out some yolks. That would bring it up to around 25/25/50. Where would you put it ideally?? I struggled to get my fat just up to 20% with my palate. I'm smashing 14 eggs a day on this meal plan to get my numbers up.

Cheers lads!!

_________________You'll never walk alone, safe in the wide open arms of hell.

I'm a little curious on why so much volume on the accessorial moves? 5x15? Why is this?I would suggest a little less volume, something like 3-5 sets of 6 to 12 reps. You can also play with the time under tension, ROM and other stuff if something goes too boring. Still, 75 reps of anything sounds a bit rough, and may not be the best for hypertrophy. More on endurance. There's a time and place for higher reps, but I don't see it fits here. Or maybe Wendlers Boring But Big to fit with the 531?

How about chin-ups instead of lat pulldowns? You got lots of machine work in there, I don't personally like that. Exercises for the lower body like hip thrusts, RDL, American Deadlift and split squats would work great also. Close grip benching and skull crushers (for some reason these are called French push-ups in Finland) for triceps are also effective. Leg press is okay. You can also rotate your accessorial exercises during weeks. I would also like to see one for the upper back and rear shoulders. Stuff like face-pulls.

The volume comes from Wendler... the triumvirate approach to assistance work calls for 5x15 on most assistance exercises... some assistance work templates call for 5x10.

What about 4x10 ?? 5x10 ?? Should I just play around with these numbers, see how I feel? I don't want to be killing myself on these sets.

Dub - I plan on changing the assistance work every 2/4 weeks. I'm doing lat pulldowns because I can't do more than 4 reps of a chin up. I throw chin ups in between my warm ups and some exercises. I need to build more strength before I can incorporate chins and pull ups as a proper assistance exercise. I also want to change the assistance work up because I think I'm missing a lot of stuff out with the above assistance template (rear delts, lateral delts, calves etc)

_________________You'll never walk alone, safe in the wide open arms of hell.

The volume comes from Wendler... the triumvirate approach to assistance work calls for 5x15 on most assistance exercises... some assistance work templates call for 5x10.

What about 4x10 ?? 5x10 ?? Should I just play around with these numbers, see how I feel? I don't want to be killing myself on these sets.

Dub - I plan on changing the assistance work every 2/4 weeks. I'm doing lat pulldowns because I can't do more than 4 reps of a chin up. I throw chin ups in between my warm ups and some exercises. I need to build more strength before I can incorporate chins and pull ups as a proper assistance exercise. I also want to change the assistance work up because I think I'm missing a lot of stuff out with the above assistance template (rear delts, lateral delts, calves etc)

5 x 15'll work, but I think 5x10 is better. And as for what you say about not killing yourself: it's not supposed to be easy. I bust my guts just as hard on accessory stuff as I do on the main lifts, otherwise, what's the point?

also, I wouldn't change accessory work as often as that. Give it a couple of months before changing. Gives you time to progress.

Rob- What do you think of that? I don't want to overdo the assistance, I'm leaving out rear delt flyes for now.. but will bring them in to an assistance template in the future. As for not killing myself, I don't make it easy on myself, far from it, but form is paramount. Rob, what do you think of the diet??

_________________You'll never walk alone, safe in the wide open arms of hell.

Ozzy, there is no ideal ratio but I think fat should be 30-40% in order to get all the micro-nutrients associated with them. You're probably not far off. Eat whole eggs only. Since half the protein is in the yolk, you can likely cut down the number but don't be afraid of the yolks. They will help towards your goals. Get a high quality egg, free range if you can find them. You are likely taking in about 400 g/protein, if your numbers are accurate. That's way more than you need for muscle building. Save your money and load up on quality carbs (vegetable) and fats (eggs, butter and coconut).

_________________Stu Ward_________________Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~HippocratesStrength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley_________________Thanks TimD

850 calories is not bad, don't sweat it, just don't waste the yolks. Nuts and fatty fish are good.

My lunch today is a salad with vinegar and olive oil, soup made from boiling down a turkey carcass, a hunk of cheese and a coffee with cream. I bet you over half the clories come from fat. Fat is found in a lot of places if you eat whole foods.

_________________Stu Ward_________________Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~HippocratesStrength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley_________________Thanks TimD

Rob- What do you think of that? I don't want to overdo the assistance, I'm leaving out rear delt flyes for now.. but will bring them in to an assistance template in the future. As for not killing myself, I don't make it easy on myself, far from it, but form is paramount. Rob, what do you think of the diet??

looks better, but you've got no press accessory. You will really struggle with your pressing strength if you're only doing 3 sets of bench, and 3 sets of overhead press.

Superset your dumbell row and lat pulldown with dumbell press and dumbell overhead press respectively. The extra volume'll do wonders for adding muscle and make you stronger on your presses. You might want to add another upper back move to help keep your shoulders happy. You can do something easy like prone trap raises or YTWLIs or something. Do them in between sets of arm work, they won't interfere with anything but it'll make all the difference.

And if you're form goes to $h1t on the last rep or two of your heaviest sets it's not a big deal...

your diet looks alright mate, you just have to see how it goes really. I personally like to have a bit more fat in my diet but have done higher carb diets and the difference was pretty much zero. Diets are so individual you really just have to keep adjusting til you find what works for you. The only thing I'd suggest is playing about with your carbs:fat ratio if you find yourself putting on more fat than you are comfortable with.

One thing that jumps out at me is that you're drinking 4 shakes a day. That strikes me as an awful lot. I would personally want to get more of my protein from meat but like I said before, if it's working for you then have at it.

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