When I started playing there were anywhere from 15-20 Pro in any given tournament. Now you can barely get five to show up. I am not trying to call out people but seriously what gives? Is it the entry fees into tourneys that are getting people? Is the tough local competition of Arthur, McCoy, Hammock and Dollar that scare golfer away? Payouts just not deep or big enough? Lack of strippers?

It's all of us noodle-arms and barneys with steady jobs registering for tournaments early in the Rec division and filling them up so that there's no slots left for the pros who're still searching the sofa cushions for spare change the day before . . . yeah, that's it .

For me it's the entry fees. Being a college student, I can barely afford to enter the advanced division, and I would play significantly more tournaments than I already do if it were a little cheaper. But having said that, I don't think the solution is to lower entry fees.

I'd like to know if many TDs around here offer the trophy-only option for Ams playing Pro? According to the PDGA site; "At the option of the TD, Amateur players are allowed to play in Pro divisions for which they are eligible according to age and gender at a reduced entry fee." That would help convince bubble players to move up. Players like me who are rated 950-980 but don't want to donate a $60+ entry fee to play in a pro division in which they feel they have little chance of cashing. The same players who will typically cash in advanced but have no use for $85 worth of plastic.

That's my solution anyways. Though it should be noted that I simply enjoy playing competitively and try to "play up" whenever I can instead of playing tournaments for payout or prizes. I played 24 holes of doubles the other day for a $2 buy in would be just as happy playing for bag tags.

12StonesScott wrote:It's all of us noodle-arms and barneys with steady jobs registering for tournaments early in the Rec division and filling them up so that there's no slots left for the pros who're still searching the sofa cushions for spare change the day before . . . yeah, that's it .

I don't see a benefit of having a trophy only option for those who want to play Pro. Especially if the Pro and Advanced play the same layouts in a tourney and then you can get a much better payout in the Advanced field when is all said in done. I mean you want to play in a division which has the most competition. So if there are only six Pros and there are sixteen Advanced players I don't see a push to move up. If you did this the Pro-trophy-only division would have to be much cheaper than the Advanced division for it to succeed.

I do think the trophy only payouts for the Advanced field should be looked into. By the time a player gets to that level of play that they really don't need anymore plastic to replace what they have. Intermediate and Rec divisions should be paid out in merchandise. I am sure it would increase a little bagging in the Intermediate field for those on the bubble (like myself) but it might entice some Advanced players to play up into the Pro field. I mean more players means deeper payout.

Another way to get more Pros in my opinion is to do what Vach is doing for Hotlanta. To reserve certain number of spot for Pros until the day of or week before the event. This gives them enough time to scrap together enough cash for the next tourney. I know a handful of Pros that basically just play from tourney to tourney. If they cash then they have money for the next one...if not then they have to wait.

The problem with holding spots(which soounds good to say in theory) is that unless you make the cutoff 2-3 weeks out - if the spots don't get taken by pros, you have no time left to sell to am's who don't usually want to wait until a week before to see if they can play or not. (they are the first to usually sign up and are only paying $10-$15 less than pros at most Events in the state)

This idea also probably works easier when there aren't so many Events all competing for the same weekends in different parts of the state so that everyone is planning on just going to the one big Event.

The PDGA has tried that with holding spots for 24 tour card holders until 2 weeks before an Event, but it made it impossible for TD's to figure if they would have a full field or not, and they did away with it.

The larger NT's and A-tiers either have separate am-pro courses or Tee times to accomodate as many pros who want to sign up.

With the courses being Fly Boy and "theP" the pros will probably sell out the 25 spots Vach has with no issues (especially if there is no age breaks) as there is nothing else in the state to compete with that weekend except IDGC.

12StonesScott wrote:It's all of us noodle-arms and barneys with steady jobs registering for tournaments early in the Rec division and filling them up so that there's no slots left for the pros who're still searching the sofa cushions for spare change the day before . . . yeah, that's it .

12StonesScott wrote:It's all of us noodle-arms and barneys with steady jobs registering for tournaments early in the Rec division and filling them up so that there's no slots left for the pros who're still searching the sofa cushions for spare change the day before . . . yeah, that's it .

DING! DING!

Shiii t with only two divisions I bet you are going to play Advanced anyway...

12StonesScott wrote:It's all of us noodle-arms and barneys with steady jobs registering for tournaments early in the Rec division and filling them up so that there's no slots left for the pros who're still searching the sofa cushions for spare change the day before . . . yeah, that's it .

DING! DING!

Shiii t with only two divisions I bet you are going to play Advanced anyway...

I might, rabbit . . . I might . . . .

I very well might play Hotlanta again this year, as I thoroughly enjoyed the Perkerson Ice Bowl this year, and I've been looking for a good opportunity to play Flyboy again when it's not 40 degrees and pouring rain. If I have to play Advanced to do it, I have no problem with that.

It ought to fairly obvious by now that on the occasions when I do play tournaments, it's not because I expect to finish high in whatever division I'm in, or to collect a handful of plastic -- if there's anything I want disc-wise, I buy it. My motivations are generally to give me a reason to play a course or courses I don't ordinarily make it to, to enjoy the opportunity to play with different people, and to measure my own fairly lame performance against my own past attempts. I play Rec or whatever the lowest available division is primarily because it's often on a shorter layout, where my inability to throw over 300' without a 20-knot tailwind and a JATO bottle is less of a factor. It's not that I'm scared of distance -- I've played and enjoyed Flyboy, the long tees at The Crucible, Moseley, and the Jackson course at the IDGC, all in competitive situations -- but having established that it's going to take me 3 or 4 strokes more on a thousand foot hole than anyone in the higher divisions, it seems sort of pointless to belabor it, so if there's an option to play a shorter layout, that's my preference.

Meanwhile, I refrain from playing events where there's a strong chance of selling out the field so that my spot can go to someone who'll make better use of it (the main reason I've never played the Atlanta Open, for instance); in those situations, I sometimes try to help the TDs put money in the pockets of the pros by sponsoring, buying fund-raiser discs, etc. But if a tournament interests me, and there's open slots, the absence of a Rec or Intermediate division wouldn't stop me from signing up -- I'm just as happy getting my ass handed to me in Advanced as Rec.

It's just a bit annoying to be doing everything I can to help improve the quality of tournaments for everyone and to still hear the argument being made (as it has been here and elsewhere in the past) that lower-skilled players shouldn't be registering for tournaments because it takes spots away from the poor pros. If it's important to you, figure out a way to make it happen -- hell, if you really are having to make a choice between paying the rent and entering a tournament you think you have a solid chance to cash in, ask one of us old, fat, mediocre guys with too much money on our hands for a loan of the entry fee secured by whatever you win. But quit trying to make your cash flow problems our fault.

So perhaps it is the case that there is too much action in the Metro Atlanta area. That there are so many tournaments already that buying into every one is an issue. On top that the local action scene is pretty high dollar wise. I have played doubles at courses out of state and at most I have paid $5 to be "all-in". Down in Daytona Beach at Tuscawilla Park you actually get paired with a "pro" player.

mrpbody33 wrote:I have played doubles at courses out of state and at most I have paid $5 to be "all-in". Down in Daytona Beach at Tuscawilla Park you actually get paired with a "pro" player.

Doubles seems to be a whole lot less in other cities. If we made it $5 I may have to play everyday. Darn, more golf for less money. Barry, I think you got lucky to get paired with an actual pro. The numbers are against you check it out. As of 2008 only 5% players are 980+ pros. I got paired with my first Legends player out of state and three ams. Pros were really never there. I think its all about perception. When I started It looked to me their was a strong open division but in actuality there was just less divisions to choose and more people playing up. Now with all the competition who would want to move to pro with 1050 rated winning rounds on the regular.

Well it was kinda of a unique thing at Tuscawilla. They have two sets of pads and golfers are kinda forced into divisions of Pro and Am. Basically it was Captain's choice the entire time with the Pro's throwing from the long pads and the Ams throwing the shorts. It probably was more like Advanced players and Recreational players but it was good match which kinda leveled the field IMO. BTW if you haven't made it down to this park it really a lot of fun. Throwing over water a few times makes things risky but there is a local who fishes stuff out on a regular basis. I thought running a similar doubles play would be interesting at courses like Alexander, ERP or Central where they have multiple teepads. But once again turnout seems to be an issue.

Lately I don't feel that I am capable of competing to the level required and so I haven't been playing.Sure, I could play down to Am division, but I am not going to. My rating ahs never been over what it currently was last (which was 956), but I'm not pdga current. I plan on getting current soon, but as I haven't played any sanctioned events this year, I don't feel a need/rush to get current.

I like the older rating system and think that the new system has an effect to "stretch out" the road to becoming "Pro".I have cashed in very few sanctioned tournaments, but I'll continue to play Pro for the duration of my so-called golf career. I'm not saying that I won't trend towards other Pro divisions, that would be a lie.

Nate Garner has dropped in his ratings...... the last time he was current, he was around 910 rated or lower. he is in the process of getting married, so he's not been playing much either.

I know a lot of players that used to play Pro have dropped down to a category that fits them better (and seem to cash/money voucher frequently). I hope they feel good about thier accomplishments and will strive to play-up in the future (like at Hotlanta).I've played in Am fields at nonsanctioned action and feel that the level of tension is waaaay lower than that of a Pro field. I find this to be unhelpful to my style of golf as I get too relaxed and don't keep focused enough to shoot well. It's nothing against Am's in general, I have many friends that are Am's and Rec players (at least I think you are my friends!!). The level of sportsmanship is different between the two groups, with the exception of a few players in both fields. I know some Rec players that are really respectful and play in a group very well.... and then I know a few Pro's that don't really act like a Pro should (not talking about recreational habits here).

But to answer where have all the Pro's gone.... I think Scott nailed it (though he was more than likely joking)

mrpbody33 wrote:So right now the answer is to personally call each local pro. Interesting.

Maybe that's part of the "answer", but don't forget that it's not required to cough up an $80 entry fee to hold your spot. It's easy to say you will do something when you don't have to invest anything to back it up.

When I started playing there were anywhere from 15-20 Pro in any given tournament. Now you can barely get five to show up...... Payouts just not deep or big enough?

Also depends on courses sometimes as I 've begged and called and relentlessly promoted to the PRO players from the very first Event I ran in the area - and experience in the GSSS through 16 Events shows the CRUCIBLE (Every year) and White Oak this year have had over 15 OPEN PRO players and over 20 total pros at each one (GSSS average is around 20 total PROS per Event) where other courses have had 7-8 OPEN and 13-14 total PROS.

It does not seem to be money driven for the most part as the GSSS Entry fees have been the same from day 1 ($50 for pros - $40 for ADV) and the cash is paid out to 50%+ of the field EVERY TIME - with the MIN added being around twice the Entry fees in OPEN - and they still don't signup.

So I don't know what other factors are needed to have a larger Pro field signup - short of having a PRO only Event in the dead of winter when there are no other Events around it.

Matthew is dead on with what he posted about being easy to get people to say yes with no money upfront - I would guess that myself and 6-10 others would be on that list if the $80 was required upfront to be on it.

I'm sure there will be a big PRO turnout though as those 2 courses alone usually draw in lots of pro players for any action held on them - and also the fact that they get almost no PDGA Event play on them will be an enticement - as I know I'm curious what a 94 on Flyboy will be rated at, and I'm sure others are wondering the same.

A. The economy is terrible and there are tons of local events, people aren't traveling as much.

B. The real question is "where are all the advanced players that are outgrowing their division?" Everywhere i have lived 2-5 advanced players move up to open every year, for the challenge and experience. The more that move up the more that's paid out, it seems as though NO ONE has moved up in the ranks in the 3 years I've lived here......maybe economy again??? lower caliber of players/larger ability gap between am and pro???

C. Its getting really boring playing against/giving your money to the same 5 people every tournament. Again see A and B.

D. I also agree with the assessment that AMs are buying up the spots quicker, but PRO's have the same opportunity and if they cant afford to pay for an event in advance they need to get a job or not play. I also agree that Hotlanta will not have all those pros cause as a TD i know how many people "promise" to be there and can't or don't show up.

How many events for a state in one calender year are too many?????? That may become an interesting question as the years go by. Three years ago the PDGA sanctioned approx 600 events, now we are up to 1200 events. Is this good/bad, most think its good but i dont know.

DISCLAIMER: These are my personal opinions, written on my time and have nothing to do with the PDGA. Its sad that i have to write this, but its the way things are these days!

Vach is taking money/payments from us Pro's. We have to pay him as soon as possible. It's not like we don't have to pay till the ceremony of the tournament. Get ready for a BIG Pro field at Hotlanta !!!

Look forward to an even LARGER group of disappointed people who won't get in!!!

I'm an optimist for sure but kinda looking like I might have a better chance winning a scratch off ticket than finding that magical time when us regular barney golfers have a chance to sign up for this event.

If I felt like I could compete in the open division I would have signed up. It appears that my adult life is getting in the way of my golf game.

In my opinion there may be 4 or 5 real pro players in our state. and a handful of wannabes.If you are not on the National Tour then you are not a pro. just my opinion.Is it good that anyone can spend money to be called pro or to say I play Pro?

I still feel that most local tournaments should be, Advance / Intermediate / Recreational with no entry fee over $25 and every player should get a event stamped disc or t-shirt. and play for trophy's or prizes.

Mr-Disc wrote:I still feel that most local tournaments should be, Advance / Intermediate / Recreational with no entry fee over $25 and every player should get a event stamped disc or t-shirt. and play for trophy's or prizes.

Ummmm.... they ARE that way. Play a few tournaments and you would know that. There aren't as many "pros" playing these tournaments, hence the title of this thread.

My entry fee is a little more being $40 for advanced and $30 for everyone else. He may be referring to that. Is that picture of him in someone's sidecar? Isn't that the same as riding on the back or what is commonly referred to as "riding bitch"? I could be wrong, but it's pretty hard to take a picture of yourself riding a motorcycle. Just sayin.

Mr-Disc wrote:I still feel that most local tournaments should be, Advance / Intermediate / Recreational with no entry fee over $25 and every player should get a event stamped disc or t-shirt. and play for trophy's or prizes.

Come play Upward Disc Golf where even you can be a winner. This mentality of everyone gets a chance and everyone gets to win, is ridiculous. If anything there should be low entry fee's and top 3-5 should get a trophy. After that, all money raised should be added to the Pro purse. This should apply for all divisions except for Recreational. They deserve a chance to win some plastic. Most of those guys are just getting started and need some incentive to play a while. Intermediates would start moving to Advanced, Advanced to Open, and so forth. Without huge Professional turnouts combined with bigger purses, this game will never be taken seriously.

Its official. We need a thread where Chuck can post more pictures of himself without all this topic nonsense. Someone please start a thread! Chuck, do you have any discs made with that cartoon of you on them? That should be a collectors item soon.

If anything there should be low entry fee's and top 3-5 should get a trophy. After that, all money raised should be added to the Pro purse. This should apply for all divisions except for Recreational. They deserve a chance to win some plastic. Most of those guys are just getting started and need some incentive to play a while. Intermediates would start moving to Advanced, Advanced to Open, and so forth. Without huge Professional turnouts combined with bigger purses, this game will never be taken seriously.

I am trying to ask a serious ? here, and looking for answers.

all money raised should be added to the Pro purse.

Why should all money raised be added to the pro purse?

Without huge Professional turnouts combined with bigger purses, this game will never be taken seriously.

this is why the pdga has the NT, pro payout should not come from amateur entry. Sponsorship's maybe. without a major title sponsor there is no real money for pro players in disc golf, this is why the rest of the world dose not take the game seriously.

Lofstrand wrote:When you do a PDGA ratings search for current GA pros only 66 turn up, 22 of which are rated over 970. So maybe there just aren't as many as you think there are.

I think a big problem is that 970 is way to high of a rating to be where one starts playing pro. I think that the average pro player in ga tournies 5 years ago was rated way lower than it is these days. There are 78 Ga Disc golfers rated 940 or above. If 940 was the point where Ams had to move up istead of 970, I bet we would have at least 30 pros at most events. And when the tournies are paying out 12-15 spots, more people leave happy, and probably will play again. If all 78 played it would pay out over 30 places!

On a normal course, the difference between 940 and 970 is 3 strokes. I personally know that even at 1005 I make at least 1-5 complete idiotic moves every round. (Missing short putts, making bad decisions, throwing it into a tree right in front of me, etc.) The game we play is 90% mental. If we learn from our mistakes, we should always be getting better.

I started playing pro before I had a rating, but my first rating was 934. I honestly believe that if I would have played advanced for 3 or 4 years I would probably have NEVER made it to 1000. You learn quick when everyone you play with is good and you're losing money.

I believe that another factor is practice. Most pro players I know practice their putting. There's nothing worse than having a putt on the last hole that you know means cash or no cash, ecspecially in Atiers and NTs when last cash in $100-$200 bucks. Putting practice is the biggest piece of the "pro puzzle."

I don't know what changed that made players stop moving up in Ga, but if you were playing ADV 4 or 5 years ago and you haven't moved up, ask yourself "Why not?"

Lofstrand wrote:When you do a PDGA ratings search for current GA pros only 66 turn up, 22 of which are rated over 970. So maybe there just aren't as many as you think there are.

I think a big problem is that 970 is way to high of a rating to be where one starts playing pro. I think that the average pro player in ga tournies 5 years ago was rated way lower than it is these days. There are 78 Ga Disc golfers rated 940 or above. If 940 was the point where Ams had to move up istead of 970, I bet we would have at least 30 pros at most events. And when the tournies are paying out 12-15 spots, more people leave happy, and probably will play again. If all 78 played it would pay out over 30 places!

On a normal course, the difference between 940 and 970 is 3 strokes. I personally know that even at 1005 I make at least 1-5 complete idiotic moves every round. (Missing short putts, making bad decisions, throwing it into a tree right in front of me, etc.) The game we play is 90% mental. If we learn from our mistakes, we should always be getting better.

I started playing pro before I had a rating, but my first rating was 934. I honestly believe that if I would have played advanced for 3 or 4 years I would probably have NEVER made it to 1000. You learn quick when everyone you play with is good and you're losing money.

I believe that another factor is practice. Most pro players I know practice their putting. There's nothing worse than having a putt on the last hole that you know means cash or no cash, ecspecially in Atiers and NTs when last cash in $100-$200 bucks. Putting practice is the biggest piece of the "pro puzzle."

I don't know what changed that made players stop moving up in Ga, but if you were playing ADV 4 or 5 years ago and you haven't moved up, ask yourself "Why not?"

what i see is the majority of players lose there money week after week, while the same top players keep landing in the top spots, so I would ask myself why in the hell i am spending thousands a year to compete with players that i can't beat. and where is the big payoff in the end if I do succeed at the sport and become the best player? ,could I make a whooping 50k a year!!! and most of my weekends committed to playing tournaments. what kind of life is that? The TOP is only for a few players, some of you can putt to you are blue in the face, it will never matter. Dollar is on short list of players that might have a chance to make it and stay at the highest level for some time, youth is on his side, the rest of you will not come even close. you either have it or you don't. Being mentally tough won't gain you 600ft drives.

my bottom line I don't feel the need to give you my money to prove to myself that I don't belong. I am sure I can find better ways to spend it.

Mr-Disc wrote:what i see is the majority of players lose there money week after week, while the same top players keep landing in the top spots, so I would ask myself why in the hell i am spending thousands a year to compete with players that i can't beat. and where is the big payoff in the end if I do succeed at the sport and become the best player? ,could I make a whooping 50k a year!!! and most of my weekends committed to playing tournaments. what kind of life is that? The TOP is only for a few players, some of you can putt to you are blue in the face, it will never matter. Dollar is on short list of players that might have a chance to make it and stay at the highest level for some time, youth is on his side, the rest of you will not come even close. you either have it or you don't. Being mentally tough won't gain you 600ft drives.

my bottom line I don't feel the need to give you my money to prove to myself that I don't belong. I am sure I can find better ways to spend it.

Just asking and not to be a jackleg, but how many thousands have YOU spent to compete in sanctioned tournaments? I'm guessing that was hypothetical, since you've only played one or two sanctioned tournaments maybe adding up to $80. I have spent literally thousands, and cash very rarely. I still understand the principal of moving up when the time is right. My biggest factor was feeling like I shot a bad round(when I played advanced) and still cashed. Plus I was learning very little from the AM field.

I could be wrong, but the greatest player in the history of this sport can't throw 600ft. Those that can rarely throw that far in a tournament. The top Pro's play for placement and they make putts. They can throw 400' drives with consistency, usually landing within feet of there intended target. They usually don't leave 45' comeback putts for par after putting from 25' initially. They usually don't sissy arm there upshots. They are mentally tough above all things. You may not need to be mentally tough to throw 600', but you need to be mentally tough to hit a double mando or thread a tight fairway.

If you played sanctioned tournaments with serious golfers, you would see these things.