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The president sticks to his position that the city must negotiate with the Pension Fund.

It was the 14th or so time that firefighter union President Randy Wyse reiterated the bargaining unit’s position on changing the pension system: “We’re not going to negotiate pension benefits,” he said, enunciating each word.

Then, from the crowd of several dozen firefighters sitting behind the union team: “Why can’t you understand that?”

The union has been steadfast in that position; most recently, although it agreed to sit down for bargaining sessions dealing with benefits in general, it made sure to preserve its right to stick to its guns.

The union argues that pension issues must be negotiated with the Police and Fire Pension Fund, which has an agreement with the city codifying retirement benefits. The city points to case law and state rulings that pensions are a mandatory issue to be bargained between the city and union.

That argument dominated Thursday’s bargaining session, when the city proposed to the Jacksonville firefighters union pension changes that are substantially the same as those offered to the police union two months ago.

Among the changes from the current system: requiring employees to wait until they turn 60 to get their pension (as opposed to collecting it after 20 years of service), slicing the rate of accrual from 3 percent a year to 1.67 percent and the elimination of cost-of-living adjustments and of the deferred retirement option program. The changes would apply to existing employees, although workers would keep whatever pension they had already accrued under the old system.

Mayor Alvin Brown’s office presented the same changes in October to the police union, which similarly responded by telling the city to talk to the pension funds. After a few contentious meetings between the two sides, the city declared the talks were at impasse. A special magistrate has been appointed to hear the case and present a nonbinding decision, with meetings to be held in either January or February.

Jacksonville is hoping to avoid that outcome when it comes to the firefighters, city labor attorney Derrel Chatmon said after the meeting. “I hope that we can see a little more progression here,” he said. “That would be more beneficial than proceeding in litigation.”

Brown is pushing for pension changes because he sees the issue swallowing the city’s budget: Required contributions to the fund could top $270 million two decades from now, the city says.

This year, the general fund had to kick in $122 million for police office and firefighter pensions, which the city sees rising to $180 million next year after assumptions about a more sluggish rate of return on investments are figured in. (Employees contribute 7 percent of their salaries, which the city proposal would double.)

That can’t keep going, Chatmon said.

“No one is saying that the benefits aren’t due. If someone’s earned a benefit, they’re going to keep it,” he said. “The concern is how to sustain what we have going into the future.”

The mayor’s changes would save $1.5 billion over 30 years, he said.

The union didn’t argue with the city’s figures — although it has some technical disagreement with how the health of the pension is judged — but said that wasn’t the issue.

“If we negotiate the pension benefits, we believe it will violate the settlement agreement,” Wyse said. He reiterated the union’s pledge to support any agreement reached between the city and the pension fund.

With that, he did put an offer on the table: To have the city kick in more for dental and life insurance and set up a disability insurance plan.

“If the city wants to talk about employee benefits,” the union head said, “we want to talk about employee benefits, not pensions.”