Some of you might flat-out hate me for even suggesting this, but really: how do we know? How do we know the whole world isn’t just some big joke, and that we’re all lab rats here to be lulled into a false sense of security over and over again, and then be tortured by a Deity grater than we can possibly imagine for His sick pleasure? That the Bible isn’t a ploy on His part to try and make us love Him an make our religious life into a situation of cruel irony?

I’d like to believe that that’s not true, but I haven’t been able to prove it to myself. If God was evil, then He would be able to fabricate any “proof” of His “goodness” anyway, so it might be a question that we, being non-omnipresent, omnipotent, etc. can’t answer.

Some of you might flat-out hate me for even suggesting this, but really: how do we know? How do we know the whole world isn’t just some big joke, and that we’re all lab rats here to be lulled into a false sense of security over and over again, and then be tortured by a Deity grater than we can possibly imagine for His sick pleasure? That the Bible isn’t a ploy on His part to try and make us love Him an make our religious life into a situation of cruel irony?

I’d like to believe that that’s not true, but I haven’t been able to prove it to myself. If God was evil, then He would be able to fabricate any “proof” of His “goodness” anyway, so it might be a question that we, being non-omnipresent, omnipotent, etc. can’t answer.

Been watching the Matrix lately? LOL. Back to the subject at hand, God is. Being self-existence, He must be Infinite. Being Infinite, He has no limits. Humans have many limits esp. when it comes to knowledge. (Example: Knowledge must be something be aquired, something outside ourselves, something dependent on the object known, etc.)

However, since God is Infinite. His Knowledge (and other attributes) are not separate from Himself. They are Himself. As the Bible says, “God is love.” God’s love and justice are not two opposing tendency raging inside God, but are one in the same in one God.

Also, you seem to be broaching on the problem of evil as well. As Christians, we believe God created everything…does that mean that God created evil and is Himself evil as well? No. What is evil? Evil is not some entity created by God but rather misuse of free will i.e. to murder would be considered evil. However, this evil can be remedied. We are not lost. We can align to ourselves to the Cross, where God’s perfect love and justice were one and the same.

Thanks for the quick reply…but that doesn’t answer my question. Of course God could tell us that He is loving even if He wasn’t, and make us believe it. But that doesn’t mean that it’s true, necessarily.

A blasphemous question to say the least. And a gross violation of the Second commandment. Now I understand the lost asking questions like that, but if one is truly born again (born from above) and a follower of Jesus Christ, that question would not be uttered. To me, it shows a complete lack of understanding of scriptures, church teaching, and common sense. God is good, man is evil. There is such an unbridgeable gap between the very best Saint and God, that it is impossible to put into words. How God puts up with sinful, depraved, rebellious man is a mystery to me. It just shows His great love and MERCY by letting us rebellious, idiotic sinners live. But, alas, the time of judgment is coming and then every idle word and deed will have to be explained. Thank God that he is a God of grace and love----and long suffering to but up with such ungrateful nincompoops.

Thanks for the quick reply…but that doesn’t answer my question. Of course God could tell us that He is loving even if He wasn’t, and make us believe it. But that doesn’t mean that it’s true, necessarily.

Practically, what would God gain by telling us that He’s good when He’s not? Being Infinite, He is Perfection. Why would Goodness Himself gain from lying to His beloved creations about the nature of Himself?

Questions are not blasphemy, statements are. And in the face of a decidedly imperfect and unloving world, it’s a valid question.

As to answering it, from my point of view the existence of an evil or at least not-all-good deity seems at least as likely as that of an omnibenevolent one.

Of course questions can be blasphemous, depending on the intent of the person asking the question. You can disagree with me all you want, but to “question” God and doing so in a manner that violates the Second command is, in my book blasphemous. Of course who goes by the 10 commands these days. They have been turned into the 10 suggestions, but that’s another story.

Some of you might flat-out hate me for even suggesting this, but really: how do we know? How do we know the whole world isn’t just some big joke, and that we’re all lab rats here to be lulled into a false sense of security over and over again, and then be tortured by a Deity grater than we can possibly imagine for His sick pleasure? That the Bible isn’t a ploy on His part to try and make us love Him an make our religious life into a situation of cruel irony?

My suggestion: Believe that God is evil, and see what life is like.

Since it’s not provable, to YOUR satisfaction, that God is not evil, by living your life as if God was indeed evil, you would at least come to some understanding of whether your belief that God is evil is a positive or a negative for you.

I think you’ll find that living with that belief will leave a VERY bad taste in your mouth.

I’d like to believe that that’s not true, but I haven’t been able to prove it to myself. If God was evil, then He would be able to fabricate any “proof” of His “goodness” anyway, so it might be a question that we, being non-omnipresent, omnipotent, etc. can’t answer.

Because there really is no way to prove, to your satisfaction, the goodness or evilness of God, as you just stated, then to come to a decision as to the goodness or evilness of God you’ll have to either change what you’ll accept as proof, or to stick with your opinion that it’s unprovable.

The funny thing is that you think that God must “prove” Himself to you before you’ll “allow” Him to be what He is…!

Faith comes before reason, and reason will always support faith if faith is real.

You must first understand Who God is as He exists before you can even think of “judging” His goodness or evilness, and the moment you do understand Him, the question becomes moot, as to really understand God is to know He is pure love.

Questions are not blasphemy, statements are. And in the face of a decidedly imperfect and unloving world, it’s a valid question.

As to answering it, from my point of view the existence of an evil or at least not-all-good deity seems at least as likely as that of an omnibenevolent one.

True, but I’d rather believe the truth than live while giving Him the benefit of the doubt.

As for what He would gain, think about it this way: you get a pet dog, get him to love you, then set mousetraps around the house for him to step on. You watch him step on them, take pleasure in his pain, then take the mousetrap off. Then you also get the satisfaction of getting the dog to think that you’re a kind person who take pain-causing things away.

I’m not saying that I think that kind of stuff is pleasurable, but an evil person might. And Zack, I’d rather face my blasphemous thoughts head-on and prove that they’re wrong then let them fester at the back of my mind. Disproving a thought that was uncontrollable is not wrong. Letting blasphemous thoughts linger and letting yourself consider the (im)possiblilty of them being true is probably worse.

We’re not God’s dogs or lab rats - we’re created by him, we’re his children, his artworks.

Parents care for their children, artists care for their artwork. A person who isn’t mentally ill doesn’t torture their child, slash their own paintings or blow up houses they’ve built with their own hands. They DO punish the child when the child does something wrong and touch up parts of the painting when it’s not as they wish.

True, but I’d rather believe the truth than live while giving Him the benefit of the doubt.

As for what He would gain, think about it this way: you get a pet dog, get him to love you, then set mousetraps around the house for him to step on. You watch him step on them, take pleasure in his pain, then take the mousetrap off. Then you also get the satisfaction of getting the dog to think that you’re a kind person who take pain-causing things away.

I’m not saying that I think that kind of stuff is pleasurable, but an evil person might. And Zack, I’d rather face my blasphemous thoughts head-on and prove that they’re wrong then let them fester at the back of my mind. Disproving a thought that was uncontrollable is not wrong. Letting blasphemous thoughts linger and letting yourself consider the (im)possiblilty of them being true is probably worse.

I don’t mean to be nosy but what spurned these thoughts? I’ve had thoughts about God myself but whether or not He is evil has never occured to me.

The dog example seems to a veiled question about the problem of evil. Like God created man, wanted him to love Him, gave man free will…and then man sins sending him into a world wrought with evil (or mousetraps). By giving man free will to choose Him or choose evil, do you think God is evil?

Since it’s not provable, to YOUR satisfaction, that God is not evil, by living your life as if God was indeed evil, you would at least come to some understanding of whether your belief that God is evil is a positive or a negative for you.

I think you’ll find that living with that belief will leave a VERY bad taste in your mouth.

Yeah, I figured that and that’s partly why I’m not sinning more than I am, but I’d just rather live on a belief than an assumption.

Because there really is no way to prove, to your satisfaction, the goodness or evilness of God, as you just stated, then to come to a decision as to the goodness or evilness of God you’ll have to either change what you’ll accept as proof, or to stick with your opinion that it’s unprovable.

The funny thing is that you think that God must “prove” Himself to you before you’ll “allow” Him to be what He is…!

Faith comes before reason, and reason will always support faith if faith is real.

You must first understand Who God is as He exists before you can even think of “judging” His goodness or evilness, and the moment you do understand Him, the question becomes moot, as to really understand God is to know He is pure love.

Of course He doesn’t NEED to prove Himself to me. I could burn in Hell for blasphemy for my questioning.

And reason does support the belief that He is good. It also, unless one of you can show me otherwise, supports the idea that He is evil almost, if not as, well.

I don’t mean to be nosy but what spurned these thoughts? I’ve had thoughts about God myself but whether or not He is evil has never occured to me.

Honestly? Either I’m not sure or I don’t remember.

The dog example seems to a veiled question about the problem of evil. Like God created man, wanted him to love Him, gave man free will…and then man sins sending him into a world wrought with evil (or mousetraps). By giving man free will to choose Him or choose evil, do you think God is evil?

One could also say that He did it to cast Himself as god, and gave man the capacity for evil so that when we are hurt by others, the blame falls on them.

We’re not God’s dogs or lab rats - we’re created by him, we’re his children, his artworks.

Parents care for their children, artists care for their artwork. A person who isn’t mentally ill doesn’t torture their child, slash their own paintings or blow up houses they’ve built with their own hands. They DO punish the child when the child does something wrong and touch up parts of the painting when it’s not as they wish.

But how do we know, were He “mentally ill,” that that wouldn’t be the true nature of the first mind? That WE were the ones that are “abnormal,” created with a sense of morality to set ourselves up for falls?

One could also say that He did it to cast Himself as god, and gave man the capacity for evil so that when we are hurt by others, the blame falls on them.

I’m not sure I understand “He did to cast Himself as god”. Being Infinite, He must be God. Unless I misunderstood you, it seems like you’re saying that God made Himself into God. God being infinite and immutable, I’m not sure how that would even work.

God gave us the capacity for free will. His will is not our wills, if that makes sense. I’m not god, so therefore I don’t have His will although I may pray that my will aligns with His. Do you think practically that we should blame God for the things His creatures do? (It would be rather silly for me to blame God for something Mirdath did.) Would it be better for Him to not have created us and thus not have free will, not have capacity for sin?

I’m not sure I understand “He did to cast Himself as god”. Being Infinite, He must be God. Unless I misunderstood you, it seems like you’re saying that God made Himself into God. God being infinite and immutable, I’m not sure how that would even work.

God gave us the capacity for free will. His will is not our wills, if that makes sense. I’m not god, so therefore I don’t have His will although I may pray that my will aligns with His. Do you think practically that we should blame God for the things His creatures do? (It would be rather silly for me to blame God for something Mirdath did.) Would it be better for Him to not have created us and thus not have free will, not have capacity for sin?

I meant to type “good.” Sorry.

But why could God make us all-knowing like Him? If He really is good, why couldn’t He make us omniscient so we know all the consequences of our actions? I think that if we all knew all the repercussions of our actions, nobody would sin.

But how do we know, were He “mentally ill,” that that wouldn’t be the true nature of the first mind? That WE were the ones that are “abnormal,” created with a sense of morality to set ourselves up for falls?

Because God IS the definition and standard of sanity, goodness and ‘normal’. If there ARE such things as insanity, evil and abnormalcy they are so because they are contrary to God (or at least to His standards).

If heaven is God’s presence, but God is not a God you want to be with for all eternity, then you have nothing to worry about - you won’t have to be in his presence. Of course you’ll be in Hell, but perhaps you’ll think it preferable to the alternative.

Because God IS the definition and standard of sanity, goodness and ‘normal’. If there ARE such things as insanity, evil and abnormalcy they are so because they are contrary to God (or at least to His standards).

That’s what I’m saying, except that what if He is the definition of standard of evil, and good and our happiness was only created to make the times we suffer all the more painful - which might also explain why happiness would exist at all in this world view.

That’s what I’m saying, except that what if He is the definition of standard of evil, and good and our happiness was only created to make the times we suffer all the more painful - which might also explain why happiness would exist at all in this world view.

??? But if God is cruel why would he want us EVER to be happy? Surely unrelenting misery would be preferable.

But why could God make us all-knowing like Him? If He really is good, why couldn’t He make us omniscient so we know all the consequences of our actions? I think that if we all knew all the repercussions of our actions, nobody would sin.

Well, God gave us intellects along with the free will, didn’t He? With our intellects, we can guess what will happen if I do x. If I put my hand on the burner, I’m gonna get burned. Also, I’m not sure if we knew all our consequences of our actions we’d cease to sin. Sin has many short term pleasures that may override our conscience. A couple may choose to have non martial sex for the pleasure, eventhough they know that sex leads to unplanned children.

God didn’t make us all-knowing, so we’re gonna do the best we can with our free will and intellect.