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after some general advise pls... new to aikido (studied for the last few months) and have watched loads of youtube footage from kyu level to shihan etc...

my main confusion surrounds the fact that uke in a lot of attacks are constantly going for wrist grabs and there seems to be much less footage of intense attacks down the centre line....

i may be completely observing these wrong, but a lot of the time, uke's appear to be running especially to grab the wrists and already prepared to take a jump...

can more experienced aikidokas explain this principle please so it can satisfy my worries about more explosive attacks etc??

on the contrary one of the few exceptions i've seen is the incredible Tissier Sensei who demonstrates much more natural attacks/techniques... (not sure if natual is the right word!!) but you get the idea...

I'm sure some more experienced members can answer better than me, but the way I understand it, wrist grabs and unrealistic lunges are used as ways to facilitate an understanding of the techniques. In our dojo, at least, we say that wrist grabs lead onto punches (and not everyone does drunken style punches -- one of my sensei dedicates a lot of time to realistic attacks -- although you should never underestimate Aikido as the perfect art to defend against some drunken nut).

You may also find the following article interesting, specifically the section about wrist-grabs being a traditional defence against sword-draws:

Also, don't forget that we train with compliance overkill so as to get used to techniques, as I mentioned above with the wrist grabs. If uke always stands his ground, how on Earth are you supposed to get to the point where you can throw him regardless of his stubbornness? It's kind of like disqualifying an athlete because they're not going to win; sure, they may not win this time, but with the opportunity to compete they can get enough practice to maybe get there one day.

"Never escalate a battle unless forced to do so by your enemy" - Zordon

Because if uke do not do that, the spirit of O'Sensei is gonna visit them in their sleep and bitch slap those guys to death.

Different sensei, different styles, different teaching methods, different ukemi. We all do different things. If you like what u're training, stick with it, otherwise look for another (more/less aggressive) style.

There is a great reason to gain wrist control. This reason has to do with controlling what is in the hand of the wrist you are holding. If you are attacking someone with a weapon in their hand and you attack only the centerline with no regard for the weapon hand, your attack will be short lived. Aikido techniques come from much older techniques that are focused on the necessity of weapon hand control, and the need to quickly free your weapon hand.

Why do Aikido practitioners grab the wrist when there is nothing in the hand? Well most of our techniques start from the wrist grab, so an uke wanting to facilitate nage's ability to perform Aikido techniques will often go for the wrist. If you want to train Aikido mostly for unarmed martial arts (like mma) then this doesn't seem to make much sense. However if you are training to keep your weapon hand free, it's ideal training.

Why do Aikido uke's "jump"? Well there are a number of reasons for this. First of all it's polite to "jump" when taking ukemi for a high ranking instructor, and it makes demonstrations look more exciting. There is an element of self protection in the high fall or "jump". Sometimes it's the safest way to fall, it protects the joint, and enables you to land safely when otherwise it might not be possible. The high fall is a part of Aikido training, both aesthetically and practically.

Why do Aikido uke's "jump"? Well there are a number of reasons for this. First of all it's polite to "jump" when taking ukemi for a high ranking instructor, and it makes demonstrations look more exciting. There is an element of self protection in the high fall or "jump". Sometimes it's the safest way to fall, it protects the joint, and enables you to land safely when otherwise it might not be possible. The high fall is a part of Aikido training, both aesthetically and practically.

Thanks Chris... i have an understanding of why we take ukemi and the look behind it... what i was trying to understand is why there is so much footage of uke's practically running to take a jump before techniques are applied/balance broken.. i understand etiquette.. but does this help develop the sensei's techniques further???

Quote:

Different sensei, different styles, different teaching methods, different ukemi. We all do different things. If you like what u're training, stick with it, otherwise look for another (more/less aggressive) style.

I am happy with my training... and it is constantly emphasised that we are learning principles and that a lot of attacks aren't started via wrist grabs... but will our techniques cover more normal left hooks, uppercuts, and more usual attacks???

Quote:

You may also find the following article interesting, specifically the section about wrist-grabs being a traditional defence against sword-draws

yes, that was explained by our Sensei, but has the reasoning behind this not disappeared with the Samurai's etc?? sorry to sound negative but just need to get things right in my head behind the methodology...

what i was trying to understand is why there is so much footage of uke's practically running to take a jump before techniques are applied/balance broken.. i understand etiquette.. but does this help develop the sensei's techniques further???

as many people here have mentioned, there are so many dojos, teachers, styles etc. that it is not possible (or proper) to speak for anyone aside from yourself, as we seldom have any real idea about the rationale for a particular thing that someone else does. on one end of the extreme you have wannabe senseis who are on ego trips and need to feel like they have super powers, whilst on the other, others may have legitimate martial, safety, philosophical or other reasons for doing so.

perhaps a more useful way to continue this line of questioning is for you to post a specific video or two that you are wondering about, and people can give you a little more specific feedback.

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but will our techniques cover more normal left hooks, uppercuts, and more usual attacks???

see above re: differences, but my understanding is if you're training in a traditional dojo, you probably won't train with most of those attacks you mentioned as part of your regular training regime. you may have to find or organise a side 'experiment group' of interested fellows; or if you're lucky, one of your teachers may have an extra/special class set aside for doing non-traditional aikido training.

however, some will argue that once you learn the principles, all attacks are the same.

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yes, that was explained by our Sensei, but has the reasoning behind this not disappeared with the Samurai's etc??

again, the most common response you will get is that ultimately, aikido is about learning the principles, not specific techniques for specific attacks. that would be too limiting and impractical.

whether or not you buy this line of argument is up to you of course.

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sorry to sound negative but just need to get things right in my head behind the methodology...

this question/debate has not started with, nor will it end with, you. i imagine almost every aikidoka out there has had a significant amount of time wrestling with this issue... some are fortunate enough to find the answers they seek. others like me are still seeking.

what i was trying to understand is why there is so much footage of uke's practically running to take a jump before techniques are applied/balance broken.. i understand etiquette.. but does this help develop the sensei's techniques further???

Hi Chris,

If uke is running, it's generally because he is still trying to attack tori. In advanced Aikido there is no 'single' attack, you keep on attacking until your balance has been taken and you are thrown.

When this hapens at high speed (running) uke has to launch himself quite high off the mat when the throw is applied, otherwise his arm gets torn off

Often, the fact that somebody is bothering to record the session puts it in the category of "demonstration". In any kind of demonstration, firstly, it's important that those watching can see what's going on, secondly, there is likely to be a degree of showing off on the parts of both nage and uke, and thirdly, both uke and nage tend to have a strong interest in the technique being seen to be "working". Aikido done without any of these considerations looks very different.

A while back a fella came and visited a class I was in. Yudansha level. The instructor demonstrated a very simple Munetsuki Kotegaeshi (for the newbs: wrist turn from a thrust punch to the chest). The fella comes over, bows to me, then he stands back a few feet and starts to kinda throw his body forward while delivering a kind of floppy, arm turned, "prebent" wrist punch while "hopping" forward on his forward foot. I stepped aside, got my hands up, and then just watched him hop past me. I never got to the kotegaeshi part because a) I had no idea what the heck he was doing and b) since he was a visitor I was trying to be polite and not say "what the hell was that?".

So he turns and asks why I didn't do the technique. My reply (which came out before I could self-censor) was that I was waiting to see if he was going to fall down by himself. He just said he was trying to give me a good, blending punch for the technique. So I bowed and we did it again. Yes, this time I threw him. And yes, all I had to do was do was kinda be in the right area and move a bit and the fella flew like he had a rocket strapped to his butt.

That was a really extreme experience. There are folk doing the other extreme as well -- same technique but they'll deliver a punch that is essentially a standing strike with zero attempt to actually hit anything. They are more focused on being totally stable and basically a sack of rocks. They don't reach you, they don't commit, and they are like throwing a sack of rocks.

I sometimes think of the guys who take the running start and are up on their toes ready to fly before they even contact as "uke-o-matics". They've gotten so good at taking ukemi (in the sense of flying) that they no longer attack. They're ready to fall before they've delivered anything at all. So they've become complicit in nage's work rather than giving nage something energetic and committed to unravel.

That said it is always a difficult balancing act. You can be a sack of rocks and be just as useless on the other side of the spectrum. Or you can do spectacular stuff without allowing nage to actually do anything.

But I know what you're saying. My personal pet peeve is seeing guys take ukemi who have that bobble-head style. The moment anyone touches them their head snaps around and they look like a spastic gumby being thrown around. Now there are people who *can* do that to a focused attacker, but some people you see just take it to an extreme in their ukemi.

Anyway, at some point a balancing act if found between a "good" attack and "good" ukemi. Some just focus a *lot* more on the ukemi and having the attacker blending as well. Which is great if you're being attacked by an Aikido practitioner. Not so great if it's the big P-O'ed guy at the bar...

Final word of advice -- worry about what your sensei is teaching you and not what you see on youtube. Youtube is the great equalizer -- you have everything from a few snippets of really good stuff to virtual landfills worth of total crap. The great thing about youtube is that anyone can video tape themselves. The worst thing about youtube is that anyone can tape themselves.

Often, the fact that somebody is bothering to record the session puts it in the category of "demonstration". In any kind of demonstration, firstly, it's important that those watching can see what's going on, secondly, there is likely to be a degree of showing off on the parts of both nage and uke, and thirdly, both uke and nage tend to have a strong interest in the technique being seen to be "working". Aikido done without any of these considerations looks very different.

Good point Steve, as Im in a beginners class i haven't really seen any full on explosive aikido as such first hand yet, as we are still literally working on the basics, and all I've seen has been probably based on youtube footage, books etc....
i know the techniques hurt like hell when applied to me, by my Sensei etc, but have just been wondering as you dont see many everyday attacks being demonstrated etc...

T but will our techniques cover more normal left hooks, uppercuts, and more usual attacks???

Ask your Sensei, we can only guess, he knows.
Different styles, different teachers ...

Quote:

Steve Thomas wrote:

Often, the fact that somebody is bothering to record the session puts it in the category of "demonstration". In any kind of demonstration, firstly, it's important that those watching can see what's going on, secondly, there is likely to be a degree of showing off on the parts of both nage and uke, and thirdly, both uke and nage tend to have a strong interest in the technique being seen to be "working". Aikido done without any of these considerations looks very different.

So true

Quote:

Keith Larman wrote:

As a gigantic fwiw...

A while back a fella came and visited a class I was in. Yudansha level. The instructor demonstrated a very simple Munetsuki Kotegaeshi (for the newbs: wrist turn from a thrust punch to the chest). The fella comes over, bows to me, then he stands back a few feet and starts to kinda throw his body forward while delivering a kind of floppy, arm turned, "prebent" wrist punch while "hopping" forward on his forward foot. I stepped aside, got my hands up, and then just watched him hop past me. I never got to the kotegaeshi part because a) I had no idea what the heck he was doing and b) since he was a visitor I was trying to be polite and not say "what the hell was that?".

So he turns and asks why I didn't do the technique. My reply (which came out before I could self-censor) was that I was waiting to see if he was going to fall down by himself. He just said he was trying to give me a good, blending punch for the technique. So I bowed and we did it again. Yes, this time I threw him. And yes, all I had to do was do was kinda be in the right area and move a bit and the fella flew like he had a rocket strapped to his butt.

That was a really extreme experience. There are folk doing the other extreme as well -- same technique but they'll deliver a punch that is essentially a standing strike with zero attempt to actually hit anything. They are more focused on being totally stable and basically a sack of rocks. They don't reach you, they don't commit, and they are like throwing a sack of rocks.

I sometimes think of the guys who take the running start and are up on their toes ready to fly before they even contact as "uke-o-matics". They've gotten so good at taking ukemi (in the sense of flying) that they no longer attack. They're ready to fall before they've delivered anything at all. So they've become complicit in nage's work rather than giving nage something energetic and committed to unravel.

That said it is always a difficult balancing act. You can be a sack of rocks and be just as useless on the other side of the spectrum. Or you can do spectacular stuff without allowing nage to actually do anything.

But I know what you're saying. My personal pet peeve is seeing guys take ukemi who have that bobble-head style. The moment anyone touches them their head snaps around and they look like a spastic gumby being thrown around. Now there are people who *can* do that to a focused attacker, but some people you see just take it to an extreme in their ukemi.

Anyway, at some point a balancing act if found between a "good" attack and "good" ukemi. Some just focus a *lot* more on the ukemi and having the attacker blending as well. Which is great if you're being attacked by an Aikido practitioner. Not so great if it's the big P-O'ed guy at the bar...

Final word of advice -- worry about what your sensei is teaching you and not what you see on youtube. Youtube is the great equalizer -- you have everything from a few snippets of really good stuff to virtual landfills worth of total crap. The great thing about youtube is that anyone can video tape themselves. The worst thing about youtube is that anyone can tape themselves.

Also true.

With some people it seems like they will decide on their behavior as Uke based on Tori belt color. In those instances, I wish the Sensei would have accepted it if I happened to find my old white belt and coming to class with it and not Hakama

Good point Steve, as Im in a beginners class i haven't really seen any full on explosive aikido as such first hand yet, as we are still literally working on the basics, and all I've seen has been probably based on youtube footage, books etc....
i know the techniques hurt like hell when applied to me, by my Sensei etc, but have just been wondering as you dont see many everyday attacks being demonstrated etc...

Well, since it is a beginners' class, presumably they are demonstrating what they want you to do and the way that they want you to do it. That being the case, the reason why they're not demonstrating "full on explosive aikido" is that the result would be many bloody noses, and yours would most likely be one of them.

This makes me think of a new student who came to our dojo recently. After his first class he was full of questions about when he would get to do the "realistic stuff". The shidoin who was teaching that class gave the explanation, which boiled down to, "When you're ready for it." The next night, after his second class, he asked the head instructor what he could do to progress faster and achieve mastery more quickly.

"You start by coming to your third class," Sensei said.

New guy hasn't been seen since.

It's all well to debate the "unrealistic" nature of aikido practice, but to paraphrase Jack Nicholson, when you're a newbie you can't handle the reality, and if you're not willing to develop the skills to do so, I guess it's better to know that sooner rather than later.

Well, since it is a beginners' class, presumably they are demonstrating what they want you to do and the way that they want you to do it. That being the case, the reason why they're not demonstrating "full on explosive aikido" is that the result would be many bloody noses, and yours would most likely be one of them.

Quote:

This makes me think of a new student who came to our dojo recently. After his first class he was full of questions about when he would get to do the "realistic stuff". The shidoin who was teaching that class gave the explanation, which boiled down to, "When you're ready for it." The next night, after his second class, he asked the head instructor what he could do to progress faster and achieve mastery more quickly.

"You start by coming to your third class," Sensei said.

New guy hasn't been seen since.

It's all well to debate the "unrealistic" nature of aikido practice, but to paraphrase Jack Nicholson, when you're a newbie you can't handle the reality, and if you're not willing to develop the skills to do so, I guess it's better to know that sooner rather than later.

Mary, i am quite aware of the reason that i haven't seen full blown aikido in our class and am under no illusion it can take years and years to progres, that wasn't the question.. my question was why are top level aikidoka's i.e. O Sensei Ukes on youtube with their own Uke not even shown to be receiving any kind of relevant attacks, which has been clearly answered by the people above who didnt seem to take offence to the question...

i am the last person to believe this is an art to be mastered within 3 classes

but have just been wondering as you dont see many everyday attacks being demonstrated etc...

What is an everyday attack? We often think of unarmed attacks first, because that's what we see in the movies, or have experience with from our childhood "fights" on the play ground. But what is an everyday attack?

It depends on where you see yourself being "attacked". If you see yourself fighting in a sport venue, or you see yourself fighting over your ego, or a barstool, then unarmed attacks are probably "normal". However if you are a soldier, then being shot at is more an "everyday attack". If you think you are going to be mugged, or kidnapped, then it's likely you'll be assaulted with a knife, club or gun.

There are lot's of kinds of attacks, and more importantly lots of different motivations behind those attacks. In Aikido you are learning what samurai thought were everyday type attacks, this might not be what you are interested in.

Mary, i am quite aware of the reason that i haven't seen full blown aikido in our class and am under no illusion it can take years and years to progres, that wasn't the question.. my question was why are top level aikidoka's i.e. O Sensei Ukes on youtube with their own Uke not even shown to be receiving any kind of relevant attacks, which has been clearly answered by the people above who didnt seem to take offence to the question...

I didn't "take offense" either, but apparently you took offense to my response; hence your use of the "disgust" emoticon, which I don't think was called for. Others in this thread pointed out that you hadn't provided any specific referents to these "top level aikidoka's", and that it is hard to answer a "why do they do that" question when the "that" is a generalization. In response to that, you repeated that you "have just been wondering as you dont see many everyday attacks being demonstrated etc.." That would seem to have already been explained, no? Thus, I'm not sure why you essentially repeated the question; hence my response. It's nothing to be disgusted at, really.

(edit) Oh, and just to clarify, in case it wasn't obvious: in my last paragraph, I wasn't talking about you, but about the individual at my dojo who apparently decided he wasn't progressing enough after two classes, and who evidently was disappointed at the idea of continuing train as a means of gaining proficiency. To quote Monty Python, "Three shall be the number of the counting, and the number thou shalt count shall be three."

I'm coming a bit late to this thread, but I've seen this "uke ready to jump" disease in my dojo as well, mostly by students who are nervous about taking ukemi. When we have had seminars, the yudansha who come to visit do not exhibit this sort of behavior. Their attacks are as fast as they believe nage can handle, and are quite real (though they pull up short if they sense that nage will be hurt if they were to complete their attack).

FWIW I really liked Chris's explanations overall.
Ideally a person probably shouldn't go into an attack with a floated center, which makes it easier to get tossed into the air or fall over, but I can see how when done with a purposeful awareness it could be a useful exercise for a number of reasons. For one thing I've always found tumbling and other mildly acrobatic practices to be quite useful during unplanned versions. For example, falling down a snowy hill at 20-30mph, or being tripped in a soccer game while running full out (I usually just roll and go). Interestingly I never get the foul called, but I stay in the interaction, usually to the surprise of the other player and always to my benefit. I say anything that teaches coordination is probably a good thing in its own right.
As for practicality and training, other folks have said it better than I will, but I think of all training as an approximation to begin with so none of it should be treated as Real, strictly speaking. For me that means training is there to develop a variety of skills, but it's up to me to internalize those so they can be expressed spontaneously as moment-to-moment needs may dictate.

What is an everyday attack? We often think of unarmed attacks first, because that's what we see in the movies, or have experience with from our childhood "fights" on the play ground. But what is an everyday attack?

It depends on where you see yourself being "attacked". If you see yourself fighting in a sport venue, or you see yourself fighting over your ego, or a barstool, then unarmed attacks are probably "normal". However if you are a soldier, then being shot at is more an "everyday attack". If you think you are going to be mugged, or kidnapped, then it's likely you'll be assaulted with a knife, club or gun.

There are lot's of kinds of attacks, and more importantly lots of different motivations behind those attacks. In Aikido you are learning what samurai thought were everyday type attacks, this might not be what you are interested in.

Thanks Chris, I suppose in my case it would mainly be empty handed drunken attacks?? although you never know your luck I suppose! You never know whats around the corner... I dont live in a particularly bad area but obviously knife crime is big in Britain at the moment...

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I'm coming a bit late to this thread, but I've seen this "uke ready to jump" disease in my dojo as well, mostly by students who are nervous about taking ukemi. When we have had seminars, the yudansha who come to visit do not exhibit this sort of behavior. Their attacks are as fast as they believe nage can handle, and are quite real (though they pull up short if they sense that nage will be hurt if they were to complete their attack).

A floating center, as far as I can think about it, should only occur if your partner 'got' you and you have not yet recovered. So yeah, it would be a bit redundant to state it, but no attacks should be made with a floating center.

Jumping into ukemi is not only not for advanced uke, it's for beginners. That's a hard habit to break if you learn your ukemi that way in the first place and it's not necessary for protecting your joints unless uke is already much to tense going in. So learning appropriate ukemi from the beginning just strikes me as the best option. I don't want to learn or teach ANYTHING that has to be unlearned later.

With respect to practicality and reality.. well, everyone trains differently and really, we all train with people we care about and don't want to injure, so we naturally temper what we do.

However, it is a very common problem to change attacks in ways that are less than beneficial if we're really training with an eye towards maintaining the martial integrity of what is, after all, a martial art. Personally, I think the philosophical stuff is critical and yet less than meaningful if not not approached through the lens of dealing with attacks that push your buttons and make you deal with your 'flinch' (fight, flight, or freeze) response.

Experience, experimentation, and my teachers have taught me that I can do that without having to create either injury or totally lame attacks that never really affect my partner (or me). It's not THAT mysterious if you pay attention to how comfortable and uncomfortable making or receiving an attack makes you and you learn how to deal with that and slowly scale it up. Anyone who's sparred in other martial arts learns at least a little of this, although I think a lot of arts carry the macho aspect further than required in learning where to draw the line.

All I know is that I strive to sustain a training environment where a technique always happens, whether it is 'uke' attacking causing tori to take a fall, or tori taking sente and making technique themselves with both parties randomly testing one another.

As orginially described, heres one of the videos in which i thought the Uke were displaying no attacks on Tohei, and "looked" like they were running just to take the fall... especially against a man of Tohei's calibre... Im not sure what they're trying to demonstrate here??

As orginially described, heres one of the videos in which i thought the Uke were displaying no attacks on Tohei, and "looked" like they were running just to take the fall... especially against a man of Tohei's calibre... Im not sure what they're trying to demonstrate here??

As orginially described, heres one of the videos in which i thought the Uke were displaying no attacks on Tohei, and "looked" like they were running just to take the fall... especially against a man of Tohei's calibre... Im not sure what they're trying to demonstrate here??

Well I thought this would be a typicall element of Ki-Aikido?
I don't know, the meaning of those running attacks, but I don't see them in other styles of aikido, or am I wrong?
I don't think this is a demonstration of ukemi.