Can a train be moved immediately after a SPAD?

Seeing the picture in the 'Railway Magazine' of Tangmere standing on the junction at Wootton Basset after the infamous SPAD of 7th March made me wonder what the crew are expected to do in a situation like that. Obviously they inform the signalman immediately, but do they then rely on the signalling system to stop all trains in the vicinity, or are there circumstances in which they would be permitted or expected to move the train to a less dangerous position? And would the answer have been different in the days when the signalbox could only be contacted from a telephone at a signal?

Certainly if I'd been in the cab my instinct would have been to reverse off the junction as soon as possible; and presumably there might be situations where moving forwards would be safer than staying put.

(Another question: are detonators still ever used to protect trains that have stopped somewhere unexpected?)

It would really depend on the situation. An example would be if I was sliding towards a red protecting a junction in poor railhead conditions I would be thinking towards making an emergency/urgent call to the signaller. However when you think about making that decision, the last thing you'd want to do is cause a train to come to a stand across the junction you're approaching.

As has been said, you would wait. It also depends on what the signal is protecting.
Moving a train over points when the signal protecting them is on could cause the risk of a derailment, and/or damage to the points.

One thing you would certainly never, ever do is reverse! If the SPAD isn't bad enough then reversing would be an absolute sure way to find yourself never going near the footplate again!

If you end up fouling the points then the signalling system should revert signals to danger however if a train has already passed the signal then it wouldn't help.

In theory what you suggest shouldn't happen as TPWS and trap points should prevent conflicting movements at junctions, especially high speed ones, which is why this incident was so serious considering those systems were tampered with.

If after contacting he signaller they asked you to move the train back where possible you would never reverse it. You would change ends and drive it back facing the direction of travel. I doubt with single headed trains they would allow reversing but have a loco pull it back from the rear-if they really did need to reverse it then measures would be put in place first but throwing it into reverse to clear the points would be an absolute no no.

Of course if you saw a train hurtling towards you and so decided to reverse your train resulting in a collision averted then it may be agreed you did the right thing but in those circumstances you would already have lost your job and have a date set to appear in court most probably with your bags packed for a fairly lengthy stay at her majesties pleasure...

The only time you ever move a train before contacting the box with TPWS activations is approaching buffer stops in platforms. You can then reset and draw up to the stops to open the doors before contacting the box to report it.

Seeing the picture in the 'Railway Magazine' of Tangmere standing on the junction at Wootton Basset after the infamous SPAD of 7th March made me wonder what the crew are expected to do in a situation like that. Obviously they inform the signalman immediately, but do they then rely on the signalling system to stop all trains in the vicinity, or are there circumstances in which they would be permitted or expected to move the train to a less dangerous position? And would the answer have been different in the days when the signalbox could only be contacted from a telephone at a signal?

Certainly if I'd been in the cab my instinct would have been to reverse off the junction as soon as possible; and presumably there might be situations where moving forwards would be safer than staying put.

(Another question: are detonators still ever used to protect trains that have stopped somewhere unexpected?)

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Although against the rules, I suppose it would be hard to criticise a driver for reversing off a junction, if that action did avert a major collision.

In reality however it's unlikely a driver would find themselves in this position and have the time to successfully do it. In the case of both Watford and Colwich the resulting collisions were almost immediate. So I suspect you would either not have the time to react, or else the signalling would stop a collision for example by maintaining or reverting signals at danger. Reversing over a set of points you have just run through could also risk derailment if the points have been damaged during the run through, as well as being a risk to any staff behind the train, or if there are points behind, etc etc. There's also the risk that another train could already have been signalled up behind.

So perhaps the risk if you can see a train bearing down on you at high speed and you know a collision is inevitable and imminent, otherwise not really a viable nor sensible course of action.

On the Underground, if a driver reports a SPAD then they generally continue to the next relief point at which a replacement driver will take over the train and the SPADder will be taken for an interview.

If the train is over a junction and you reverse you will derail the train if there are swing nose cross overs making up the junction. They won't thank you for that.

Once you SPAD you do as you are instructed, the other trains will be stopped by the signals going back on them as you occupy the Track circuit, the signaller making an emergency call on the radio, a GSMR general call, a stop message or some other ways I can't think of.

You do not take unilateral action under such circumstances because you will get a P45 for your troubles.

No, that's not a SPAD, as authority has been given to pass the signal at danger.

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Er.... How is a Signal Passed At Danger not a Signal Passed At Danger?

Just because there was 'permission' doesn't mean the signal was not at danger - danger being a noun (one of the Signal Aspects) in this case as opposed to a descriptive...It's still a SPAD, just one that requires an awful lot less admin post it's occurrence.

What happens when somebody presses a red button and signals reset when you're just about to pass them? Apart from obvious brown trouser issues? Do you get tea and biscuits with a manager, even though it isn't your fault as a driver?

What happens when somebody presses a red button and signals reset when you're just about to pass them? Apart from obvious brown trouser issues? Do you get tea and biscuits with a manager, even though it isn't your fault as a driver?

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That would be classed as a Cat "B" or Tech SPAR. (It's the new trendy way of saying SPaD.)

The signalbox datalogger would (SHOULD) have all of the necessary data regarding that particular incident. Also FFCCTV would verify that the signal reverted, along with the OTMR showing the AWS trace.

Er.... How is a Signal Passed At Danger not a Signal Passed At Danger?

Just because there was 'permission' doesn't mean the signal was not at danger - danger being a noun (one of the Signal Aspects) in this case as opposed to a descriptive...It's still a SPAD, just one that requires an awful lot less admin post it's occurrence.

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A SPAD only refers to a signal passed at danger WITHOUT AUTHORITY. If it's authorised it's not a spad. May not make sense outside the industry but it's how it is. Just the terminology used.

If there is permission given then it simply isn't a SPAD or an operating incident.

The way I always look at it, danger (SPaD) means that the signal is showing a red aspect to protect from the undesired entry of a train into the next section, whereas red (SPaR) is the term for when the signal has not been set to red before a correct sequence of restrictive aspects have been indicated to the driver.

Er.... How is a Signal Passed At Danger not a Signal Passed At Danger?

Just because there was 'permission' doesn't mean the signal was not at danger - danger being a noun (one of the Signal Aspects) in this case as opposed to a descriptive...It's still a SPAD, just one that requires an awful lot less admin post it's occurrence.

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The railway doesn't operate on nouns. It operates on whether you have authority to do certain things. If you pass a signal at danger, without authority it is classed as a SPAD. If you reach a signal at danger, stop and contact the signaller and he/she then gives you authority to pass that signal at danger, it isn't a SPAD. It is passing a signal at danger with the signaller's authority.

Feel free to argue the OED definition of 'danger' for the rest of your life if you want, but passing a signal at danger with the authority of the controlling signaller is NOT a SPAD.

I was Cover driver about so many years ago and I was sent to Surbiton (with a DSM) to relieve a 442 10 car which had had a fatality there.I had to relieve the driver and take the train to Waterloo.Ok not quite a SPAD but a rare time I had to take a driver off under such a sad circumstance.The same happened to me when I had my fatality.

Er.... How is a Signal Passed At Danger not a Signal Passed At Danger?

Just because there was 'permission' doesn't mean the signal was not at danger - danger being a noun (one of the Signal Aspects) in this case as opposed to a descriptive...It's still a SPAD, just one that requires an awful lot less admin post it's occurrence.

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All SPADs are categorised in one of four sections:

Categories of SPADs said:

A SPAD (Previously Category A SPAD) is where the train proceeds beyond its authorised movement to an unauthorised movement.

A Technical SPAR (Previously Category B SPAD) is where the signal reverted to danger in front of the train due to an equipment failure or signaller error and the train was unable to stop before passing the signal.

A Signaller SPAR (Previously Category C SPAD) is where the signal was replaced to danger in front of the train by the signaller in accordance with the rules and regulations and the train was unable to stop before passing the signal.

A Runaway SPAR (Previously Category D SPAD) is where an unattended train or vehicles not attached to a traction unit run away past a signal at danger.

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Which one of these would you put a signal passed with authority in?

The ORR website defines a SPAD, stating "A signal passed at danger (SPAD) occurs when a train passes a stop signal without authority to do so."

The one time I've been aboard a train involved in a SPAD, I was a passenger. It was primarily due to low adhesion. The driver put the brake in Emergency near the single yellow, but still passed the red and came to rest with the first coach across a major junction in South London. The driver used the red button before the train came to a stand, because he knew he would end up across the points.

After arranging it with the signaller, the train proceeded into the station just beyond the junction, passengers were detrained, and then the same driver took the train ECS to the terminus station presumably to be relieved there.

But to answer the OP's question: The rulebook says that as soon as a driver becomes aware that a train has passed a signal at danger, whether or not TPWS operates, he or she must stop immediately, contact the signaller, and carry out any instructions given. The signaller will complete a RT3189 form with the driver on the phone. A SPAD is quite a stressful experience, and a driver is free to refuse to move the train if s/he doesn't want to, but under no circumstances must s/he move the train without verbal authority.

Realistically, a Driver is not going to continue with the journey after suffering a SPAD. The TOC will make efforts to either find a replacement driver or take the train out of service asap (and to arrange a download of the train OTMR).

Realistically, a Driver is not going to continue with the journey after suffering a SPAD. The TOC will make efforts to either find a replacement driver or take the train out of service asap (and to arrange a download of the train OTMR).

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Not strictly true, indeed a Cat A, odds on the Driver will be taken off, but Cat B and Cat C, then 9 out of 10 Drivers will be happy to carry on once the circumstances have been explained to them, although a B or a C at a signal protecting a level crossing may result in the Driver asking to be relieved of duty (understandably !)

Realistically, a Driver is not going to continue with the journey after suffering a SPAD. The TOC will make efforts to either find a replacement driver or take the train out of service asap (and to arrange a download of the train OTMR).

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The last thing you are asked is "Are you ok to continue ?" The train will need to be moved and in my experience it is very rare that a Driver doesn't move the train. They may only move to the next station or finish the trip but most move the train. Even our worst SPAD (and it was bad) The driver till changed ends and went wrong road back into the previous station (trains could run round it)

The only incidents where I absolutely know the Driver will not continue and the train will not move is a fatality or derailment. No doubt there will be someone who could post experience where a fatality knowingly has occurred and the Driver continued.

Realistically, a Driver is not going to continue with the journey after suffering a SPAD. The TOC will make efforts to either find a replacement driver or take the train out of service asap (and to arrange a download of the train OTMR).

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It depends entirely on the specific circumstances and drivers history. Certainly not as black and white as you suggest.