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Stress in response to life is a natural thing, and is not unhealthy, it's only when it's compounded by environmental problems, toxic waste, estrogens and chemicals in everything, excess sedentary lifestyles, poor sleep, being a wage slave, etc; that a stressful diet like prolonged fasting, or emulating starvation via ketosis gets to be a problem. It's a vicious cycle. Stress is a word that sums up too many things.

I don't feel that VLC is harmful if done right, but I believe that most people won't be able to handle a diet that liberates a bunch of toxins from their cells. I find that, fasting is no problem for me anymore, because I've become nutrient replete, and taken actions against my previous poor diet. I still feel that high carb is a superior choice, given what you mention about anthropology, but this is left up to the individual because as said before there are many variables involved, even if we're organically similar in many ways. That whole nature vs nurture thing again.

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No I'll quote it for you AGAIN!!! Geese, I really don't think you to be unintelligent, thats why I saw no sense in repeating myself for the hundreth time....

So for the zillionth time the most comprehensive data we have on this is the "Ethnographic Atlas" by Dr. George P. Murdock. Its the basis of Cordains analysis and for many published studies regarding nutrition and health of various societies.

When analyzing the data we find that out of 229 hunter gatherer groups 46 get MORE than 85% of their calories from hunted food. Oh, before we get too far please note that Murdock indicated that gathering activities could also include the collection of small land fauna (insects, invertebrates, small mammals, amphibians, and reptiles); therefore, the compiled data may overestimate the relative contribution of gathered plant foods in the average hunter-gatherer die. So we already have over 20% of the studied peoples eating what is for all intensive purposes a VLC diet.

So 20% of the 229 eat VLC.... I could rest my case here because this alone is enough to prove that the human organism can and will acclimate to a low carb lifestyle without breaking down into disease or ill health, but take a look at the whole of these examined. As a whole they average 70% of their calories from hunted food and 30% from gathered..... that would be a MAXIMUM of 30% carbohydrate load and quite likely to be substantially less due to the inclusion or small animals, insects...ect in the gathered group.

I didn't feel I had to spell this out for you yet again, but there you go. All specific and even referenced for ya.

If you want to delve into history further than what that knowledge shows then you ARE guessing! They may be educated guesses, but none the less are quite debatable. Humans surviving the ice age, following river and costal lines out of Africa....ect. All quite interesting, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in any of those baskets. I look to "wild" humans we know rather than guessing at times past.

Out of the 7 countries in this study, we can clearly see saturated fat intake is correlated with increased rates of heart disease.

Remember that one? The problem is, there are more than 7 countries on Earth.

Surviving vs thriving. I don't care about cherrypicked information to support a predetermined agenda using epidemiology. It isn't real. What's real is how the human body reacts to food on a cellular level, and free fatty acids have a massive handicap regarding energy production vs glucose.

Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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And I would say its Choco arguing for one diet. I'm simply arguing for the value of including LC in the array of diets one may choose from and still manifest good health

What I'm arguing is that this thread was created by a man that has significant health issues, and you'd rather support the conditions causing these health issues than break your paradigm.

I rarely argue for HFLC dieting because there is rarely a reason to be on a HFLC diet. There is very little they do well and a whole lot they do poorly. Do you ever see me comment in threads where people are successful eating HFLC diets do you? You always see me in threads where people are struggling with this lifestyle due to HFLC dieting. Maybe that's why? Comparatively, I see you coming into threads where people are killing themselves restricting carbohydrate suggesting they continue killing themselves. This is one of those examples.

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First off, "allergic" was more of a metaphor in describing the inflammation, histamine-induced type reactions after I would eat starch. I don't think I'm literally allergic to an entire family of macronutrient. "Highly-Sensitive" would be the proper tone for my symptoms I guess.

I did start this thread quite a while back, around 16 months ago? A few changes & improvements in my symptoms since then.

I doubt I'd be diagnosed as deathly sick, but certaintly guilty of eliminating quality food options & becoming intolerant/resistent over time. I totally agree with Choco, eliminating the carbohydrate all together isn't solving the root of the problem. I don't think its running from it either, simply taking a break from the power of insulin to recover. I'm an athletic ectomorph that has pounded sugar, starch & gluten for years. When I hit 28-29, my lifestyle calmed down & my stressed gut needed a break. Which I think is all Neckhammer is suggesting. Hey, I needed to enlist in the 4 R's. Remove, Repair, Restore, Replace. I'm sure Choco agrees with this strategy?

Not being able to properly utilize carbohydrate means something is wrong. I think this is true, I should be able to handle moderate carbohydrate intake.

You both agree on many principles, but I think you're arguing about 2 different things. Choco defends the carbohydrate & its well-deserved. My grandfather exchanged vegetables & fruit for "penrose sausages, cheese dip & spoonfuls of butter". He lost weight quickly, glowed with joy, then he dropped dead of a heart attack. Clean carbohydrate is a weapon for going from good to great. Max-out performance, totally agree.

But for a celiac, leaky gut or the metabolically challenged, isn't starch & insulin an aggressive hormone that we can afford to side-line for a bit? Insulin is like a drug to me, I need to take it with caution. But I'm not going out for the football team, I simply want to be able to handle starch, not rely on it.

My goal is to reverse some damage, then re-introduce to properly digest any natural food I ingest. Max out my immune system.

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I had an interesting email conversation with Paul Jaminet of The Perfect Health diet. In his research, he's found carbs are absolutely necessary for good gut health. This is why he recommends starch with every meal.

I'm quoting directly from his email to me:

"One effect of very low-carb diets is you impair gut barrier integrity which is maintained with carbs. That creates a leaky gut followed by food sensitivities."

Some food for thought. I wrecked my health being low carb for a very long time. Start thinking outside the box.

Surviving vs thriving. I don't care about cherrypicked information to support a predetermined agenda using epidemiology. It isn't real. What's real is how the human body reacts to food on a cellular level, and free fatty acids have a massive handicap regarding energy production vs glucose.

Well I was gonna just let it drop, but since this thread made it back to the front page I'll write another response for fun!

First off, I gave you data only because you called me out.

"Ah, the "because I said so" argument. But you did a good job wrapping it in the "studies have shown" guise. It makes the fallacy sound more convincing." Your exact words.

As if I couldn't back my stance that there is sufficient evidence of humans thriving in such a manner. So now you have to backpedal. Its not that I'm FOS and using fallacies, its that you just disregard the data cause you don't like epidemiology. How many hunter gatherer groups does it take to convince you if 229 isn't enough? It doesn't matter because no matter what evidence I provide your mind is made up. You have your paradigm built up that your working from, and you can't see outside of it. Biochemistry is great, but to me its folly to rely on it alone. Especially if you only have a working knowledge of the basics. In case you didn't know, many of the biological mechanisms put forth in molecular biology are just as hypothetical as those put forth based on epidemiological data. Very littly is known comparatively. Thats what makes the cross reference with epidemiology so vital. But to each their own.... I don't begrudge someone their opinion. Just took exception to being called out so I responded.

So one by one..... I CAN refute the clame that HFLC is more stressful, I CAN refute your claim that insulin resistance from a HFLC diet is detrimental to health in any manner, I CAN refute that fatty acids are inferior to carbohydrate on a cellular level. Really... I can do all this with published literature, and I have. Just as with the cited hunter gatherer tribes though, I've done it all before and it got us nowhere. So if you call me out on my ability to back these claims in this instance your just gonna have to do an MDA search for those old threads.

So for abc123....your plan looks good, and I think you can count on achieving excellent health with it. And you are right, me and Choco probably aren't disagreeing on anything of great importance here. It's just minutia, slight differences of opinion on optimal health, and a bit of ego on both parts.

Derp..... I think we both are far enough along to know what we don't know (which I'm fine with admitting is quite a lot in my case) and just have our opinions on what we do. I can respect that.

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I have to eat extraordinarily low carbohydrate or else I bloat like a balloon, I swear, 4 pieces of lettuce and I am bloated like an 8 month pregnant woman. I do far better without veggies, sadly, I really do love them!

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I have to eat extraordinarily low carbohydrate or else I bloat like a balloon, I swear, 4 pieces of lettuce and I am bloated like an 8 month pregnant woman. I do far better without veggies, sadly, I really do love them!

Really? I thought lettuce was the least offensive veg for bloat?
Then what veg have you found not to bloat?
I checked out your web page and YouTube - but that's not "personal" diet related yet pretty funny.
How about fruit? But you may be more focused on low carb than no bloat?

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I have discovered I am allergic to all carbs also. I cannot eat them in any form or my bloating, insomnia and other issues come back full force. All grains, all bread, pasta, cereals, rice, beans - YES, even vegetables. All of it causes an allergic reaction in my system.

I eat all meat, all protein, and force myself to eat veggies once in a while for the nutrients and the roughage. I am 52 years old, and I feel better than I have in ages.

Menopause wreaked all kinds of havoc on my overloaded system, and years of the SAD and CW had my hormones and insulin levels as screwed up as possible. I am now, after only ONE MONTH CARB FREE, able to sleep better, my skin is cleared up and I need less lotion, my brain fog oh my goodness, I am alert and active, I am walking 3 miles at least every day, and the weight? I've lost 22 pounds in a month. And 14 inches off my body, and I only measure a few places. 3 inches off my waist. 3.5 inches off my hips. I feel glorious.

It IS possible to be allergic to all carbs, I am proof. I do understand the need for supplements (and possibly dumping my diet coke addiction I KNOW). But all protein, all the time is my way of life these days.

It was MDA and this forum, this community that gave me the idea to just quiet all the other voices and listen to my body. I can't thank you all enough.