If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Shadow clone training method

I was bored lately so I decided to calculate how long it took Naruto to complete his wind Rasengan using the shadow clone training method and to my surprise some interesting conclusions arose. This is all backed up by the manga and anime, I used the anime more as it was far easier to know when the days passed for obvious reasons. I broke down the training into parts Nature and Shape Manipulation and the final stage of combining the two for the wind rasengan. I also go into some advanced applications and complications/limitations at the end.

Wind nature training

Spoiler!

After the math I found it was quite interesting the total about of time needed without clones was approx 2.4 years. The time skip was approx 2.5 years, so it would have taken Naruto without clones the whole time skip to nail down his wind nature. He simply didn’t have the time and he didn’t have Yamato suppressing the fox’s chakra(indirectly the fox's will as well) during the time skip. Keeping in mind he would have had to fit in odama rasengan training as well, let alone the wind rasengan. A lot of people say Naruto didn’t do much in the time skip but this clearly shows he did all he could with what he had.

It was stated by kakashi when Sasuke was learning Chidori it took SEVERAL LONG DAYS to nail down lightning chakra transformation, a testament of the genius shinobi he is I guess. I’m not a Sasuke fan but at least I can acknowledge that feat considering it took Naruto approx 8 days to nail down wind chakra transformation using clones. Also let’s not forget it was speculated by Tsunade that Sasuke’s massive improvement after the time skip was done by unnatural means by either using forbidden techniques from Orochimaru or special drugs from Kabuto. There may be drawbacks, wonder if this will haunt Sasuke in the future?

Shape Manipulation training (Rasengan)

Spoiler!

Not much to say here but step 3 is clearly the hardest step, I believe the Forth hokage spend almost all of the 3 years here. Naruto during the battle with Kabuto thought of using a shadow clone to rotate the chakra while he supplies the chakra and compresses it, this too shows Naruto's genius qualities. Naruto’s skill in shadow clones is what allowed Naruto to master the Rasengan much quicker than the Forth. But Naruto still needs a clone where the Forth would have been able to do it in one hand, as Jiraiya has never seen the method used by Naruto to spin the chakra using hands during the time of step 1. Naruto has room for improvement here.

Nature +Shape Manipulation (Wind Rasengan)

Spoiler!

Just wanted to note a couple of things here, 200 clones was the limit Naruto could do when he was was trying to add wind chakra to the rasengan. He could do more now as he’s mastered sage mode. Sasuke did take ONE MONTH to get as fast as Lee(without weights) and learn Chidori, you must give credit here as well for Sasuke but in terms of difficulty the wind rasengan is on another level. Also there might be SLIGHT improvements to the wind rasengan past what was shown during the Pain fight. Before Naruto was alerted to Pain’s arrival at Konoha, Naruto did say he almost got the technique down prefect and then he left to fight Pain.

NOTE(Regarding the pictures):

Spoiler!

In the normal conditions training column it is how long Naruto would have taken without the use of clones NOT any other shinobi. With the exception of the leaf cut, Kakashi gave us a general time figure for all shinobi. Also there's minor error for the waterfall cut as I had to approx count clones in the anime. Also I haven't finished the last bit of the wind rasengan I'm waiting for the anime to the point where Naruto stops training at the toad mountain. Other than that its pretty darn accurate for the info we have in the manga/anime.

Optional reading - Advanced usage

Spoiler!

A lot people are talk about using this training to learn multiple jutsus or at multiple locations at the same time. So I broke it down in parts again as this is a complicated matter.

Multiple locations(only)

Spoiler!

I guess its possible for Naruto to train in two or more different locations but he would need space&time techniques, even then there are complications. If he had some space&time techniques, Naruto could warp to and from locations to re-cast/de-spell clones. Reason being as there is a limit of how far away clones can be from Naruto for him to de-spell. This is why Naruto needed to reverse summon the clones gathering natural energy at the toad mountain before he could de-spell the clones and gain their Natural energy during the Pain fight. Naruto could use that scroll he used during the Pain fight but there could be limitations as to how many clones can be reverse summoned per use. So far it has been shown only one clone at a time, which is totally impractical if you are dealing with hundreds of clones to de-spell. We have seen Nagato use the reverse summoning technique with all 6 of his Pain bodies so this could be possible.

The 2nd method I could think of, is if some of Naruto's clones cast clones in the other location. Now if the clone de-spells another clone either two things can happen.
(1) When the clone is de-spelled the training experience will return THE CLONE THAT CAST IT.
(2) When the clone is de-spelled the training experience will return TO THE ORIGINAL NARUTO.

If (1) happens then this all useless as you would still need a time&space technique to get either the clone or Naruto close enough to each other for Naruto to de-spell and consolidate the training experience. I believe this is most likely what would happen if Naruto tried this with clones.

Even if (2) occurs there are serious problems that come with it. Unfortunately each clone a clone summons will have even less chakra than a normal clone that Naruto would have summoned himself(Remember the chakra is distributed evenly when you cast a shadow clone),and therefore limit the training you could do with those particular clones. So this in fact will slow down the training or make the training impossible depending what the training is. But on the bright side the nine tail fox can help here and speed it up again as its all about chakra. I believe this is a LONG SHOT.

And finally the last method I could think of is do with the nine tail fox. If you recall when the Fox took over Naruto during the Pain fight it de-spelled the remaining clone at the Toad Mountain. Now whether it was the nine tail's chakra or its will that de-spelled the clone is yet to be known. But let say for argument sake it's the chakra as Naruto would need to suppress the fox's will to use the chakra freely for training(Don't think the Fox would want to train LOL). So all Naruto would have to do when he wants to de-spell clones from far away is simply use the Fox's chakra and hence consolidate on the training. But Naruto would still need time&space techniques to get back to the other location, cast clones and continue the training.

As you can see you fundamentally need time&space techniques to train in multiple locations far away from each other, for example konoha and the toad mountain at the same time. Only option 2 of the 2nd method doesn't need time&space techniques but its a LONG shot.

Multiple jutsus(only)

Spoiler!

Now about learning multiple jutsus at the same time. By doing multiple jutsus at the same would require more concentration from Naruto. Naruto currently is limited to 200 clones with high chakra control which we found out during the wind rasengan training. He has improved his concentration dramatically when he learned sage mode which is all about concentration to gather natural energy. So he could now be able to make more than 200 clones as hes mastered sage mode. Now your probably thinking what about he fox's chakra, that would only allow him to make more clones, while his concentration dictates how many clones he can maintain during multiple jutsu training. I also would like to mention as I know other people will bring this up, during the Pain fight Naruto could only summon two clones to fight with him while another two gather natural energy. This doesn't imply any particular limitation when it comes to training with sage mode as he was fighting and gathering Natural energy at the same time. As oppose to clones just training while in sage mode that would require far less concentration and therefore allow more clones for training.

Multiple jutsus + Multiple locations

Spoiler!

Now to do both at the same time is big ask as individually they are difficult to handle. It would be a lot easier if Naruto learns a time&space technique as he wouldn't have to worry about the difficulties associated with training in multiple locations and only worry about the multiple jutsu training difficulties.

Conclusions

Spoiler!

So what can we conclude from all this, it took Naruto approx 51 days (8+39+4) to complete the wind rasengan when it could have taken up to 7 years (2.4+3+1.6). Lol, 7 years that’s your high school education right there. The wind rasengan could have been useful on the last day of school. Also I just thought I'd point out Orochimaru's plan to learn all jutsu by extending his life using the soul transfer jutsu, Naruto may compete with this too. So far when Naruto has used the shadow clone training he has been using his normal chakra which is 4 times larger than Kakashi's and if he uses the nine tail's chakra as well he would have 100 times kakashi's chakra. This now means Naruto with the nine tail's chakra is 25 times(100/4) bigger than his normal chakra and therefore able to create 25 times more shadow clone and as a result the shadow clone training will be 25 times faster. For example, Naruto took approx 8.125 days to complete his wind nature training with his normal chakra, now with the nine tail's chakra it would have taken approx 7.8 hours( 8.125*24 / 25). AND if Naruto then enters Sage mode WHO KNOWS how fast Naruto will learn Jutsu in the future. This will be very useful BEFORE and DURING the upcoming war.

I also found a neat comparison to Dragonball Z, in that manga they had the Hyperbolic time chamber where you can train 6 hours for every minute that passes in the real world. So for Naruto to compete with this he would have to train with 360 clones ((6*60)/1). Naruto is actually almost there, he can use up to 200 clones when high chakra control training is needed

This thread may start making you think Naruto can do anything which is wrong. I just wanted to bring up the concept of chakra affinity. Having an affinity to a element allows you to use the strong jutsu's in that element's field. All shinobi can use jutsu from all elements but they are weaker if they don't have an affinity towards that element. Kakashi's analysis during the Kakuzu fight explains this well, based from all the shinobi we have seen so far you can have up to 3 affinities (fifth muzikage). Nagato is the exception, the rinnegan gives affinities to ALL elements. Shadow clones won't help Naruto in gaining affinities as this all to with your blood(genetics). So far Naruto has wind and water is speculated amongst fans, but it wouldn't surprise me if he just had an affinity to wind given the OUTRAGEOUS potential Naruto has with shadow clones.

I'm very excited about Naruto's next training arc as I believe hes gonna rewrite the textbook when it comes to training. Madara better watch out lol, I honestly believe Naruto has the potential to be the greatest of all time.

Hope you enjoyed the read.

Last edited by psukkar; 05-05-2012 at 09:16 AM.
Reason: typos

The Master's Legacy

If a theory can't explain the mysteries of the past, it has little chance to explain the mysteries of the present and future.

I like this thread purely because it shows that the training Naruto has gone through hasn't simply been hax, with the KB process and his determination, it makes logical sense that he could do this in a fraction of a year. Really great research on barely anything to go on, OP.

Even with all that though, people will still complain how quickly he attained Sage Mode. Bleh.

I like this thread purely because it shows that the training Naruto has gone through hasn't simply been hax, with the KB process and his determination, it makes logical sense that he could do this in a fraction of a year. Really great research on barely anything to go on, OP.

Even with all that though, people will still complain how quickly he attained Sage Mode. Bleh.

That's strange naruto barely used Any clones during the sage training. He used 3 and couldn't be done all the time. As pa frog could only keep up with 4 naruto's a time.

I believe his gaining (and perfecting) Sage Mode so quickly had more to do with his natural affinity for Senjutsu than any use of Jutsu (Kage Bunshin) could have.

We have to remember that even Jiraiya (who had been studying Senjutsu since his early teens and was praised by Fukasaku as one of the more skilled practitioners) did not master "Sage Mode" to the degree that Naruto did in only a weeks time.

Actually Naruto was using Kyuubi's chakra, Yamato can completely shutdown Naruto's ability to use Kyuubi chakra with almost no effort. What Yamato was doing during the training was supressing Kyuubi's will while allowing Naruto to use Kyuubi's chakra which takes an exceptional amount of effort on his part.

Actually Naruto was using Kyuubi's chakra, Yamato can completely shutdown Naruto's ability to use Kyuubi chakra with almost no effort. What Yamato was doing during the training was supressing Kyuubi's will while allowing Naruto to use Kyuubi's chakra which takes an exceptional amount of effort on his part.

Lol it doesn't work like that, Yamato surpresses nine tail's chakra.
The Sharingan is associated with controlling the nine tail's will as they control it and use it to attack, like how Madara used it against the Forth hokage and the First hokage.

When Naruto uses the nine tail's chakra, the nine tail's will comes along with it. As Naruto has hate in his heart currently for the nine tail's will to cling onto.

Supressing Kyuubi's chakra = easy.
Keeping Kyuubi from taking over Naruto while he is using Kyuubi's chakra = hard.

Yamato's whole purpose there was basicly to hold back Kyuubi's will so Naruto would not transform while training and when he failed he would then completely supress Kyuubi's chakra reverting Naruto back to normal.

although am pretty bad at maths .. this outlet was simply very calculative and easy to understand...

since i was already thinking what would be naruto's unique power in which only he could utilize, well i was considering chakra of his as unique coz he possess abudant, and this method of training also seems to be a unique one offcourse

*** love***

Love yourself and others as much as u love urself

*** enoch ***

Spoiler!

Originally Posted by Stev3child

So I'll just stick to my nose(whatever the hell that means), and not listen to that which doesn't make sound k? And next time lighten up. Im just fooling around as I usually do.

Originally Posted by Afro Thunda

An easy mistake to make when something is written "a little bit unclear". Thanks for your clarification (minus the insult).