INTERVIEW WITH KARL MARX

by H

.

Chicago Tribune, January 5, 1879

London, December 18 [1878]

In a little villa at Haverstock Hill, the northwest portion of
London, lives Karl Marx, the cornerstone of modern socialism. He was
exiled from his native country -- Germany -- in 1844, for propagating
revolutionary theories. In 1848, he returned, but in a few months was
again exiled. He then took up his abode in Paris, but his political
theories procured his expulsion from that city in 1849, and since that
year his headquarters have been in London. His convictions have caused
him trouble from the beginning. Judging from the appearance of his
home, the certainly have not brought him affluence. Persistently during
all these years he has advocated his views with an earnestness which
undoubtedly springs from a firm belief in them, and, however much we may
deprecate their propagation, we cannot but respect to a certain extent
the self-denial of the now venerable exile.

Your correspondent has called upon him twice or thrice, and each
time the Doctor was found in his library, with a book in one hand and a
cigarette in the other. He must be over seventy years of age. [Marx
was sixty.] His physique is well knit, massive, erect. He has the head
of a man of intellect, and the features of a cultivated Jew. His hair
and beard are long, and iron-gray in color. His eyes are glittering
black, shaded by a pair of bushy eyebrows. To a stranger he shows
extreme caution. A foreigner can generally gain admission; but the
ancient-looking German woman [Helene Demuth] who waits upon visitors has
instructions to admit none who hail from the Fatherland, unless they
bring letters of introduction. Once into his library, however, and
having fixed his one eyeglass in the corner of his eye, in order to take
your intellectual breadth and depth, so to speak, he loses that
self-restraint, and unfolds to you a knowledge of men and things
throughout the world apt to interest one. And his conversation does not
run in one groove, but is as varied as are the volumes upon his library
shelves. A man can generally be judged by the books he reads, and you
can form your own conclusions when I tell you a casual glance revealed
Shakespeare, Dickens, Thackeray, Moliere, Racine, Montaigne, Bacon,
Goethe, Voltaire, Paine; English, American, French blue books; works
political and philosophical in Russian, German, Spanish, Italian, etc.,
et. During my conversation I was struck with

His Intimacy with American Questions

which have been uppermost during the past twenty years. His knowledge
of them, and the surprising accuracy with which he criticized our
national and state legislation, impressed upon my mind the fact that he
must have derived his information from inside sources. But, indeed,
this knowledge is not confined to America, but is spread over the face
of Europe. When speaking of his hobby -- socialism -- he does not
indulge in those melodramatic flights generally attributed to him, but
dwells upon his utopian plans for "the emancipation of the human race"
with a gravity and an earnestness indicating a firm conviction in the
realization of his theories, if not in this century, at least in the
next.

Perhaps Dr Karl Marx is better known in America as the author of
_Capital_, and the founder of the International Society, or at least its
most prominent pillar. In the interview which follows, you will see
what he says of this Society as it at present exists. However, in the
meantime I will give you a few extracts from the printed general rules
of

The International Society

published in 1871, by order of the General Council, from which you can
form an impartial judgment of its aims and ends. The Preamble sets
forth "that the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by
the working classes themselves; that the struggle for the emancipation
of the working classes means not a struggle for class privileges and
monopolies, but for equal rights and duties, and the abolition of all
class rule; that the economical subjection of the man of labor to the
monopolizer of the means of labor -- that is, the sources of life --
lies at the bottom of servitude in all its forms, of all social misery,
mental degradation, and political dependence; that all efforts aiming
at" the universal emancipation of the working classes "have hitherto
failed from want of solidarity between the manifold divisions of labor
in each country," and the Preamble calls for "the immediate combination
of the still-disconnected movements." It goes on to say that the
International Association acknowledges "no rights without duties, no
duties without rights" -- thus making every member a worker. the
Association was formed at London "to afford a central medium of
communication and cooperation between the workingmen's societies in the
different countries," aiming at the same end, namely: "the protection,
advancement, and complete emancipation of the working classes." "Each
member," the document further says, "of the International Association,
on removing his domicile from one country to another, will receive the
fraternal support of the associated workingmen."

The Society Consists

of a general Congress, which meets annually, a general Council, which
forms "an international agency between the different national and local
groups of the Association, so that the workingmen in one country can be
constantly informed of the movements of their class in every other
country." This Council receives and acts upon the applications of new
branches or sections to join the International, decides differences
arising between the sections, and, in fact, to use an American phrase,
"runs the machine." The expenses of the General Council are defrayed by
an annual contribution of an English penny per member. Then come the
federal councils or committees, and local sections, in the various
countries. The federal councils are bound to send one report at least
every month to the General Council, and every three months a report on
the administration and financial state of their respective branches.
whenever attacks against the International are published, the nearest
branch or committee is bound to send at once a copy of such publication
to the General Council. The formation of female branches among the
working classes is recommended.

During my visit to Dr. Marx, I alluded to the platform given by
J.C. Bancroft Davis in his official report of 1877 as the clearest and
most concise exposition of socialism that I had seen. He said it was
taken from the report of the socialist reunion at Gotha, Germany, in
May, 1875. The translation was incorrect, he said, and he

Volunteered Correction

which I append as he dictated:

First: Universal, direct, and secret suffrage for all males over
twenty years, for all elections, municipal and state.

Second: Direct legislation by the people. War and peace to be made
by direct popular vote.

Third: Universal obligation to militia duty. No standing army.

Fourth: Abolition of all special legislation regarding press laws
and public meetings.

Fifth: Legal remedies free of expense. Legal proceedings to be
conducted by the people.

Sixth: Education to be by the state -- general, obligatory, and
free. Freedom of science and religion.

Seventh: All indirect taxes to be abolished. Money to be raised
for state and municipal purposes by direct progressive income tax.

Eighth: Freedom of combination among the working classes.

Ninth: The legal day of labor for men to be defined. The work of
women to be limited, and that of children to be abolished.

Tenth: Sanitary laws for the protection of life and health of
laborers, and regulation of their dwelling and places of labor, to be
enforced by persons selected by them.

Eleventh: Suitable provision respecting prison labor.

In Mr. Bancroft Davis' report there is

A Twelfth Clause

the most important of all, which reads: "State aid and credit for
industrial societies, under democratic direction." I asked the Doctor
why he omitted this, and he replied:

"When the reunion took place at Gotha, in 1875, there existed a
division among the Social Democrats. The one wing were partisans of
Lassalle, the others those who had accepted in general the program of
the International organization, and were called the Eisenach party. The
twelfth point was not placed on the platform, but placed in the general
introduction by way of concession to the Lassallians. Afterwards it was
never spoken of. Mr. Davis does not say that is was placed in the
program as a compromise having no particular significance, but gravely
puts it in as one of the cardinal principles of the program."

"But," I said, "socialists generally look upon the transformation
of the means of labor into the common property of society as the grand
climax of the movement."

"Yes; we say that this will be the outcome of the movement, but it
will be a question of time, of education, and the institution of higher
social status."

"This platform," I remarked, "applies only to Germany and one or
two other countries."

"Ah!" he returned, "if you draw your conclusions from nothing but
this, you know nothing of the activity of the party. Many of its points
have no significance outside of Germany. Spain, Russia, England, and
America have platforms suited to their peculiar difficulties. The only
similarity in them is the end to be attained."

"And that is the supremacy of labor?"

"That is the

Emancipation of Labor"

"Do European socialists look upon the movement in America as a
serious one?"

"Yes: it is the natural outcome of the country's development. It
has been said that the movement has been improved by foreigners. When
labor movements became disagreeable in England, fifty years ago, the
same thing was said; and that was long before socialism was spoken of.
In American, since 1857 only has the labor movement become conspicuous.
Then trade unions began to flourish; then trades assemblies were formed,
in which the workers in different industries united; and after that came
national labor unions. If you consider this chronological progress, you
will see that socialism has sprung up in that country without the aid of
foreigners, and was merely caused by the concentration of capital and
the changed relations between the workmen and employers."

"Now," asked your correspondent, "what has socialism done so far?"

"Two things," he returned. "Socialists have shown the general
universal struggle between capital and labor --

The Cosmopolitan Chapter

in one word -- and consequently tried to bring about an understanding
between the workmen in the different countries, which became more
necessary as the capitalists became more cosmopolitan in hiring labor,
pitting foreign against native labor not only in America, but in
england, France, and Germany. International relations sprang up at once
between workingmen in the three different countries, showing that
socialism was not merely a local, but an international problem, to be
solved by the international action of workmen. The working classes move
spontaneously, without knowing what the ends of the movement will be.
The socialists invent no movement, but merely tell the workmen what its
character and its ends will be."

"Which means the overthrowing of the present social system," I
interrupted.

"This system of land and capital in the hands of employers, on the
one hand," he continued, "and the mere working power in the hands of the
laborers to sell a commodity, we claim is merely a historical phase,
which will pass away and give place to

A Higher Social Condition

We see everywhere a division of society. The antagonism of the two
classes goes hand in hand with the development of the industrial
resources of modern countries. From a socialistic standpoint the means
already exist to revolutionize the present historical phase. Upon trade
unions, in many countries, have been built political organizations. In
America the need of an independent workingmen's party has been made
manifest. They can no longer trust politicians. Rings and cliques have
seized upon the legislatures, and politics has been made a trade. But
America is not alone in this, only its people are more decisive than
Europeans. Things come to the surface quicker. There is less cant and
hypocrisy that there is on this side of the ocean."

I asked him to give me a reason for the rapid growth of the
socialistic party in Germany, when he replied: "The present socialistic
party came last. Theirs was not the utopian scheme which made headway
in France and England. The German mind is given to theorizing, more
than that of other peoples. From previous experience the Germans
evolved something practical. This modern capitalistic system, you must
recollect, is quite new in Germany in comparison to other states.
Questions were raised which had become almost antiquated in France and
England, and political influences to which these states had yielded
sprang into life when the working classes of Germany had become imbued
with socialistic theories. therefore, from the beginning almost of
modern industrial development, they have formed an

Independent Political Party

They had their own representatives in the German parliament. There
was no party to oppose the policy of the government, and this devolved
upon them. To trace the course of the party would take a long time; but
I may say this: that, if the middle classes of Germany were not the
greatest cowards, distinct from the middle classes of America and
England, all the political work against the government should have been
done by them."

I asked him a question regarding the numerical strength of the
Lassallians in the ranks of the Internationalists.

"The party of Lassalle," he replied, "does not exist. Of course
there are some believers in our ranks, but the number is small.
Lassalle anticipated our general principles. When he commenced to move
after the reaction of 1848, he fancied that he could more successfully
revive the movement by advocating cooperation of the workingmen in
industrial enterprises. It was to stir them into activity. he looked
upon this merely as a means to the real end of the movement. I have
letters from his to this effect."

"You would call it his nostrum?"

"Exactly. He called upon Bismarck, told him what he designed, and
Bismarck encouraged Lassalle's course at that time in every possible
way."

"What was his object?"

"He wished to use the working classes as a set-off against the
middle classes who instigated the troubles of 1848."

"It is said that you are the head and front of socialism, Doctor,
and from your villa here pull the wires of all the associations,
revolutions, etc., now going on. What do you say about it?"
The old gentleman smiled: "I know it.

It Is Very Absurd

yet it has a comic side. For two months previous to the attempt of
Hoedel, Bismarck complained in his _North_German_Gazette_ that I was in
league with Father Beck, the leader of the Jesuit movement, and that we
were keeping the socialist movement in such a condition that he could do
nothing with it."

"But your International Society in London directs the movement?"

"The International Society has outlived its usefulness and exists
no longer. It did exist and direct the movement; but the growth of
socialism of late years has been so great that its existence has become
unnecessary. Newspapers have been started in the various countries.
These are interchanged. That is about the only connection the parties
in the different countries have with one another. The International
Society, in the first instance, was created to bring the workmen
together, and show the advisability of effecting organization among
their various nationalities. The interests of each party in the
different countries have no similarity. This specter of the
Internationalist leaders sitting at London is a mere invention. It is
true that we dictated to foreign societies when the Internationalist
organization was first accomplished. We were forced to exclude some
sections in New York, among them one in which Madam Woodhull was
conspicuous. that was in 1871. there are several American politicians
-- I will not name them -- who wish to trade in the movement. They are
well known to American socialists."

"You are your followers, Dr. Marx, have been credited with all
sorts of incendiary speeches against religion. Of course you would like
to see the whole system destroyed, root and branch."

"We know," he replied after a moment's hesitation, "that violent
measures against religion are nonsense; but this is an opinion: as
socialism grows,

Religion Will Disappear

Its disappearance must be done by social development, in which education
must play a part."

"The Reverend Joseph Cook, of Boston -- you know him --"

"We have heard of him, a very badly informed man upon the subject
of socialism."

"In a lecture lately upon the subject, he said, 'Karl Marx is
credited now with saying that, in the United States, and in Great
Britain, and perhaps in France, a reform of labor will occur without
bloody revolution, but that blood must be shed in Germany, and in
Russia, and in Italy, and in Austria.'"

"No socialist," remarked the Doctor, smiling, "need predict that
there will be a bloody revolution in Russia, Germany, Austria, and
possibly Italy if the Italians keep on in the policy they are now
pursuing. The deeds of the French Revolution may be enacted again in
those countries. That is apparent to any political student. But those
revolutions will be made by the majority. No revolution can be made by
a party,

But By a Nation"

"The reverend gentleman alluded to," I remarked, "gave an extract
from a letter which he said you addressed to the Communists of Paris in
1871. Here it is: 'We are as yet but 3,000,000 at most. In twenty
years we shall be 50,000,000 -- 100,000,000 perhaps. Then the world
will belong to us, for it will be not only Paris, Lyon, Marseilles,
which will rise against odious capital, but Berlin, Munich, Dresden,
London, liverpool, Manchester, Brussels, St. Petersburg, New York -- in
short, the whole world. And before this new insurrection, such as
history has not yet known, the past will disappear like a hideous
nightmare; for the popular conflagration, kindled at a hundred points at
once, will destroy even its memory!' Now, Doctor, I suppose you admit
the authorship of that extract?"

"I never wrote a word of it. I never write

Such Melodramatic Nonsense

I am very careful what I do write. That was put in _Le_Figaro_, over my
signature, about that time. There were hundreds of the same kind of
letters flying about them. I wrote to the London _Times_ and declared
they were forgeries; but if I denied everything that has been said and
written of me, I would require a score of secretaries."

"But you have written in sympathy with the Paris Communists?"

"Certainly I have, in consideration of what was written of them in
leading articles; but the correspondence from Paris in ENglish papers is
quite sufficient to refute the blunders propagated in editorials. The
Commune killed only about sixty people; Marshal MacMahon and his
slaughtering army killed over 60,000. There has never been a movement
so slandered as that of the Commune."

"Well, then, to carry out the principles of socialism do its
believers advocate assassination and bloodshed?"

"No great movement," Karl answered, "has ever been inaugurated

Without Bloodshed

The independence of America was won by bloodshed, napoleon captured
France through a bloody process, and he was overthrown by the same
means. Italy, England, Germany, and every other country gives proof of
this, and as for assassination," he went on to say, "it is not a new
thing, I need scarcely say. Orsini tried to kill Napoleon; kings have
killed more than anybody else; the Jesuits have killed; the Puritans
killed at the time of Cromwell. These deeds were all done or attempted
before socialism was born. Every attempt, however, now made upon a
royal or state individual is attributed to socialism. The socialists
would regret very much the death of the German Emperor at the present
time. He is very useful where he is; and bismarck has done more for the
cause than any other statesman, by driving things to extremes."

I asked Dr. Marx

What He Thought of Bismarck

He replied that "Napoleon was considered a genius until he fell;
then he was called a fool. Bismarck will follow in his wake. He began
by building up a despotism under the plea of unification. his course
has been plain to all. The last move is but an attempted imitation of a
_coup_d'etat_; but it will fail. The socialists of Germany, as of
France, protested against the war of 1870 as merely dynastic. They
issued manifestoes foretelling the German people, if they allowed the
pretended war of defense to be turned into a war of conquest, they would
be punished by the establishment of military despotism and the ruthless
oppression of the productive masses. The Social-Democratic party in
Germany, thereupon holding meetings and publishing manifestoes for an
honorable peace with France, were at once prosecuted by the Prussian
Government, and many of the leaders imprisoned. Still their deputies
alone dared to protest, and very vigorously too, in the German
Reichstag, against the forcible annexation of French provinces.
However, Bismarck carried his policy by force, and people spoke of the
genius of a Bismarck. The war was fought, and when he could make no
conquests, he was called upon for original ideas, and he has signally
failed. The people began to lose faith in him. His popularity was on
the wane. He needs money, and the state needs it. Under a sham
constitution he has taxed the people for his military and unification
plans until he can tax them no longer, and now he seeks to do it with no
constitution at all. For the purpose of levying as he chooses, he has
raised the ghost of socialism, and has done everything in his power

To Create an _Emeute_"

"You have continual advice from Berlin?"

"Yes," he said; "my friends keep me well advised. It is in a
perfectly quiet state, and Bismarck is disappointed. He has expelled
forty-eight prominent men -- among them Deputies Hasselman and Fritsche
and Rackow, Bauman, and Adler, of the _Freie_Presse_. These men kept
the workmen of Berlin quiet. Bismarck knew this. He also knew that
there were 75,000 workmen in that city upon the verge of starvation.
Once those leaders were gone, he was confident that the mob would rise,
and that would be the cue for a carnival of slaughter. The screws would
then be put upon the whole German Empire; his petty theory of blood and
iron would then have full sway, and taxation could be levied to any
extent. So far no _emeute_ has occurred, and he stands today confounded
at the situation.