Bringthegoldstandardback, cutter & Froy.
Here are excerpts from David White in New Zealand. His letter speaks the truth. (Due to character limitations, I had to chop it into 2 posts).
His words - not mine. Read it Please.

An Open Letter to the Palestinians from an Agnostic
Sun, 26 May 2002 18:03:29 -0700

Speaking Truth to the Powerless: An Open Letter To The People Commonly Called "Palestinians". Greetings to any Palestinian who may be reading this. My name is David White. I am a citizen of New Zealand, a small, Western, nominally Christian country in the South Pacific Ocean. I am not Jewish, or Christian, I guess I'm vaguely agnostic.

A Down Under Overview Your interpretation, as far as I can tell, seems to be something like this: You have no state of your own, and you are fighting a war against those you call "Zionist oppressors" and "colonial imperialists", in order to create a Palestinian state. Accusations of massacre and human rights violations by the Israeli Army are being tossed around like confetti. Your leader, Yasser Arafat, vows to "martyr" himself rather than "surrender", and that bungling and incompetent organization, the United Nations (again, no apologies for venting personal opinions), is trying to do what it is constitutionally incapable of doing, i.e. "saving future generations from the scourge of war".

The Israelis see things differently, of course. For them, it's a simple battle for survival. They offered you a state, and you attacked them instead. They have occupied Palestinian towns, have fought it out with various armed groups, and desperate attempts are being made by the US, other Arab countries and the UN to break the so-called "cycle of violence". As a result, the Palestinian situation at the moment generally, can be explained by putting it into New Zealand idiom.
Put bluntly, the Palestinian people are buggered. Munted. Stuffed. Rooted.(American equivalent= screwed. British equivalent: done over). It's like this: Yasser Arafat turned down the Israeli offer of a Palestinian homeland in Gaza and the West Bank. You want, or Arafat claims that you want, a Palestine "from the river to the sea;" in other words, "all or nothing".
There is one insuperable obstacle to this- Israel. No matter how eloquent your arguments or numerous your martyrs, no matter how many European diplomats are angered by, or UN resolutions are passed against, Israel, the Israelis are not going to pack up and leave. The only way you will get the Palestinian state you want is to destroy Israel.

This is what you have been trying to do since 1948, and the current "intifada" launched in 2000 is your latest effort. However, the Israelis are not standing there and letting you kill them. They are fighting back, and if they have to choose between their own survival and yours, guess which choice they'll make.

A Vast Wringing Of Hands, A Great Fluttering Of Diplomats. That has been the overall response to the disaster you have created for yourselves. You, the Palestinian Arabs, are obviously hoping for some kind of international intervention to save you. As we in New Zealand would say, "Get Real!".
As for your "beloved Arab brothers" in the Middle East, they make a great deal of noise about your "liberation struggle", and have sent money and arms, but have not sent a single tank to save you. Their diplomatic proposals are ones that could have been offered at any time, and are aimed at benefiting them, not Palestinians. The Egyptians themselves will not declare war on Israel unless they receive $100 billion to cover their costs. Do you really believe that the rest of your Arab Muslim brothers think you are worth that much?
Do you really believe they will put your interests ahead of their own?
Although your friends and Arabs in Europe are passing sanctions and burning synagogues in your support, not a single EU warship has sailed to your aid, and not a single NATO aircraft has dropped a single bomb on your "Zionist oppressors".
I have noted that large numbers of people, including university educated intellectuals support the Palestinian cause. Don't be misled by this. No matter how many western intellectuals, news media and international organizations may support the Palestinian struggle, none of this matters because America stands by Israel.

The Unbearable Burden of Life. How did you get into such a mess? As you yourselves would say and have indeed said on many occasions, it isn't your fault. It's always the "Great Satan" America, and it's "Lesser Satan", Israel, that you blame for all your woes. Everything that you do, such as your "martyrdom operations", are described as the products of your "rage" at being "dispossessed of your land", and of your "helplessness" in the face of "Zionist" might. There are only 300 million Arabs against over 5 million Jews! How unfair! How unjust, that so many can do so little against so few!
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A number of Western commentators have put Arab failures down to numerous cultural factors, not the least being Islam. Your religious beliefs in martyrdom and jihad, coupled with a total inability to accept any blame for your own predicament, have combined to do you great and lasting damage.

Look closely at why Western countries such as Israel have succeeded, and Muslim countries have not. Western countries are free-market democracies. Muslim countries (other than Turkey) aren't. Surely that should tell you something.
Why I Stand. As I said, I do not, and I will not, support the Palestinian cause. Why not?

I have a number of reasons, and here they are:

1. You have made it clear beyond any shadow of doubt that you intend to destroy Israel and kill or drive out its Jewish population. This is genocide, pure and simple. You justify this by saying that Israel has committed many crimes against your people, and that you seek "justice". I say this in response- NOTHING WHATSOEVER is an acceptable justification for genocide. Loss of land, humiliation at being militarily defeated - others have suffered these and moved on to create new nations and opportunities for themselves.

2. You have accused the Israelis of "genocide" against you. Here's a question for you: Israel has atomic bombs and powerful military forces. If they really, truly wanted you all dead, they could easily do it. Why haven't they? If the Israelis went all-out, you would be, as we say in New Zealand, "dog tucker". Why did they spend so much time negotiating with your leaders?
Because Israel wants peace and secure borders. You refuse to give them even those. You plan genocide and accuse Israel of the same crime. Prove it!

3. The use of terrorism. Killing people for being Jewish is despicable. Terrorist attacks on innocent civilians are also despicable. (At this point, I'd like to pause and get a question of nomenclature cleared up, regarding those Palestinians who kill themselves and others with explosives strapped to their bodies. You call them "martyrs". Western media sources and academics debate the precise term to use in describing them. Others, including the Israelis, call them terrorists.
I have a better, more appropriate term. I prefer to use the word "kamikazes". The original kamikazes appeared in 1944, in the war in the Pacific. They were Japanese Navy and Army pilots,organized into "Special Attack Units" with orders to crash their planes into American warships, in the hope of destroying them - "one plane, one ship". Their initial impact was similar to that of the Al-Quaeda attacks on New York and the Pentagon- shock and horror. (I noted that many Palestinians appeared on Western TV celebrating the September attacks). Note: The American response, in both cases was not the one hoped for.
….
4. Using children as suicide bombers. Anyone who teaches children to kill themselves in suicide attacks is not worth supporting under any circumstances. For you to do this to your children is an abomination. A commentator on a Web magazine said that if the Palestinians laid down their arms, they would get peace and land. If the Israelis laid down their arms, they would be killed. You know that is true, even if most of Europe doesn't.

Your cause is evil, because it seeks destruction at any price. Genocide is not justice. Sacrificing your own children for the sake of your leader's personal ambitions is wicked
That's why I cannot support you. That's why I stand with Israel. Palestinian Past or Future?
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Are Palestinians really going to be a "Kamikaze Nation"? Are you really going to give Israel no other option except your destruction? If they must choose, then as Israeli historian Martin Van Creveld said, "better a terrible end than terror without end".
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Invest in banks, not bombs. Build computer chips, not Kalashnikovs. Teach science and mathematics, not hate. Look to the future, not the past. Stop blaming Americans and Jews for all your problems, and take responsibility for your own actions. Read those parts in the Quran about living with the "peoples of the Book".

Golda Meir, the former Israeli Prime minister, is quoted as saying " there will be peace in the Middle East only when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel ". Every time I see pictures of Palestinian children waving guns and wearing dummy explosives, then I can only say she is right. The alternative to peace is not victory but death.
Think about it- before it's too late.

I read that entire thing just now, so I will invite you to click on my screen name and read any of my previous posts. I never, not once agreed with what the Palistinian/Arab's have been doing. But that is not what we are here to discuss. I initially came on here to comment about how Israel is dragging down the economies of the West, all so it can fulfill some silly ancient prophecy. If you really had "Western values" as you claim, your nation would never vote for any politician who suppresses millions of people. I will agree with you on this, everything that man said was absolutely correct.....under the assumption that Israel truly wants a two state solution and a peaceful coexistence with Muslims and Christians in their nation.

You see, logic comes in different forms. Your logic is different than mine, and different than everyone else's. No two people share a perfectly identical way of thinking.
Ideologies are different. So let us not argue in who's logic is "better." Let's talk about facts. What is happening on the ground? When Israel first started off as a nation, it always used the same excuse to expand itself....The Palestinians/Arabs refuse to recognize us as a nation. Then The West Bank's "government" I am referring to Abbas n company (not sure if you consider them a government or not, but it's irrelevant.) Finally put their weapons down and recognized Israel as a nation. Their counterparts, the Gazans, have not done this. Instead they have done the opposite. Now recognizing Israel or not, that is also irrelevant. What is relevant is that they have NOT put down their guns. They have kept up their PHYSICAL resistance of Israel. Any Gazan that says he/she does not recognize Israel, is an idiot. Plain and simple. If Israel isn't a nation, then who the hell has you under a blockade and who crosses the border in raids?
Now, what is the outcome of the decision of the West Bank and that of Gaza? The West bank is losing territory every day. The Gazans are being caged and suffocated. Whenever Israel gets the chance, it kill off as many as it can in cross border raids and even air strikes and other ridiculously overly aggressive tactic that are not necessary at all. I for one fear that Israel is saving them for when they finish off the soft ones in the West Bank first.

Here is the accusation: Israel does not truly want any peace with the Palestinians and never has. Their plans from the first day of its creation, and long before, has been to take over the land in between the Med. Sea and the Jordan river. There are also other stories that Israel seeks to control an even larger land mass that sits between two other bodies of water, spread much farther apart. However, that is not confirmed and I have not personally seen that kind of evidence that would assure me of this, so we won't get into that.

Since Israel's creation, it has done everything, to prove that this is its plan. So how is it that you expect something like what this David White fellow has written to actually change anything on the ground? Do you think the average Palestinian even has access to something like that? Yeah, try telling a Gazan teenager that if he/she stops throwing rocks at Israeli's and stops shooting at them, and stops trying to blow them up, that their life will improve. I certainly wouldn't buy it if I were them. Israel cannot just "finish them off" as he(David White) says they would do if they really wanted to. They cannot do that because Israel is 100% dependent on the US. Which means they are 100% dependent on the votes of American citizens. An outright genocide by Israel would mean the end of voting for pro-Israeli politicians. So you must create a scenario where you are stealing their land in self defense. More and more Americans are seeing it. As our Economy gets worse, even more people will begin to see it. Our economy is going down hill, let no one fool you. We are not in recovery. We are in what economists call the bumpy plateau. When the economy slightly goes up and down several times before a collapse. Now a total collapse is not imminent, meaning it isn't too late to prevent it. However, Israel's policies will finish the job if we now get into it with Iran.

In other words, your actions are affecting America and the rest of the "West." I really hope for our sake that your religious prophecy is right. I really do, because if not, then we are headed for an ugly future Ha-chever shell! (hope i said that right)

Some Kiwi repeating the same old tired talking points as you. What's the big deal? You got tired of typing and now you prefer to copy&paste? I can also get you articles from people from any country of your choosing denouncing Israel's crimes. But it's much more fun to write it myself, tailored to refute your rants.

For example, here you have a newly released documentary exploring the many similarities between South African apartheid and the Israeli one, directed by South African Ana Nogueira and Israeli Eron Davidson, with the contribution of Israeli academics and South African anti-apartheid activists:

I will be happy to reply to your post point-by-point (as much as I can).

QUOTE: "I initially came on here to comment about how Israel is dragging down the economies of the West"

With one of the highest GDP in the world, how Israel is doing so?..... Please elaborate.

QUOTE: "If you really had "Western values" as you claim, your nation would never vote for any politician who suppresses millions of people".

No we don't. You are looking only one side of the coin - the Arab's side. Not the Israeli one.
If you look carefully at past Israeli elections for past 40 years. It clearly shows that, whenever Pals engaged in violence against Israeli citizens. Israeli voters had responded with electing right wing leaders like Netanyahu. And while peace negotiations were going on, we elected the moderate party, like the late Itzhak Rabin, and Ehud Barak, or Ariel Sharon (whom left the right wing Likud, and formed the centrist party of Kadima).

QUOTE: "Since Israel's creation, it has done everything, to prove that this is its plan."

That is pure conjecture, not reality. If fact, it is the Arabs & the Pals who have been declaring their intent to destroy Israel. They have left enough documented evidence of their insidious intent.
I invite you to provide me with a single official document that is the case with Israel.
Please read official documents from PLO, HAMAS & Israel.

The "Apartheid" rubbish.
Israeli Arabs make up 17% of the total population. They have 10 members in the Knesset, a former cabinet member, and a highly respected Judge in Israel's supreme court.

Occupation of the WB notwithstanding. Pals are not citizens of Israel, or vise versa. So where is the Apartheid?

Expansion issue:
If Arabs wanted to prevent us the Israelis from expansion into their land, they should have, a) accept UNR 181, and not violently resist Jews their equal right to their own state - however small it would have been. b) Not give Israelis the reasons to take their, by inciting their crowd and terror against civilians, or initiate other hostilities.

Gaza:
Since you had brought Gaza. this is a classic example of what I was saying.
Israel had left Gaza in Aug. 2005. It left behind fully functioning green houses with 1M plants to the Pals, which were providing jobs to hundreds of Pals. Within 3 weeks, all were looted by the pals. Gone.

What Hamas ended doing, after we had left? Use imported cements to build tunnels and massive bunkers to smuggle weapon and other means to attack Israel - instead of using it to build homes and other infrastructures. Thus, demonstrate to the world, they are capable to lead their people to better economic & political prosperity.

Had they done so, I like to see anyone in my government dare to attack someone who his building his society for peaceful life and good neighborly.
In a span of 8 years, Hamas had launched more then 12.000 rockets into Israeli cities and town, holding 900.000 Israelis hostage. As David White had asked in his letter, "what did you expect the Israeli do?"

Finally, with their idiotic and Don Quixotic act, Hamas leaders do not serve the Palestinians aspirations of self governess, free of occupation - rather act as Israeli agents who's sole objective is to defeat the Pals aspirations for self government. At the same time, PLO must stop demanding concessions from Israel which are absolute red line for Israel. a) flood Israel with 7M Arab refugees with clear intend to tip the demographic balance to their favor. Then use our own democracy to destroy our democracy (Sharia Law?). b) Settle the borders between the two countries through direct negotiates – not force it down our throat. c) stop teaching their children to hate Jews.

Levy, I just don't know how many times I need to say this. "I DO NOT SUPPORT THE STANCE TAKEN BY PALESTINIAN POLITICIANS OR THEIR MILITARY GROUPS." So please stop making statements about the failures of the Palestinian leadership. That does not concern me. I am not Palestinian, nor do I have some fairy tale view that all Muslims are one against the "Zionist Regime." Palestinians are not even united themselves, so why should I, an American citizen, want to destroy Israel for them? As a matter of fact, I do not want to destroy Israel for anyone, nor do I want to see Israel destroyed. I have met many Israeli's in my life and they are just normal loving people like anyone else, I certainly do not wish any harm for any innocent Israeli citizen who believes in nothing but a peacefull homeland for his/her people. I have made that point several times here.

We will go back to my original point, Israel is a burden on America and is dragging us into a new crusade against Arab/Muslim nations. Israel has not been able to maintain a friendly relationship with any of its neighbors. Even Turkey, who stood as Israel's greatest regional ally for decades, has been managed to be turned into another enemy. Israel has no plans, and has never had any plans to accept the initial offering of the UN. It's plan had always been to expand its borders to fulfill its ancient prophecy. This is documented in many places, just google Zion, you will get thousands, maybe millions of results with both support for Zionists and all the accusations against it. Whether you concider it official or not, is up to you.

Now, since the Palestinians/Muslim's/Arabs cannot unit together for ANY common cause, and since their own leaders are working against them, I personally don't find any reason to blame Israel, soley, for any of the problems in the ME. However, I do blame them for the problems that are starting to arise in America. I do not agree with any nation expanding itself at the expense of another nation (we can say at the expense of another group of people since you don't like to recognize Palestine as a nation.) However, if Israel wants to fulfill some prophecy and creat it's religious homeground in the midst of the most volatile region in the world, then let Isreal do it by itself. Stop using MY TAX DOLLARS to do it. Stop using my country's military to swoop in and save Israel whenever a nation strong enough to create a threat to Israel comes about. It is Israel that wants something unreasonable, therefore take unreasonable measures to get it all you want, I promise you I will not scream genocide if you kill off all the Palestinians. Just don't do it with my tax dollars or the lives of innocent Americans. Arab/Muslim hatred for America is because of our unconditional, unreasonable support for Israel. If we truely played a neutral role in this conflict, then 9/11 would have never happened. Iraq and Afghanistan would have never been invaded and occupied for over a decade. We wouldn't be dealing with this non-sense with Iran today.

Make no mistake, Americans do not care about Israel. They know very little about it and I gaurantee you the majority of Americans wouldn't be able to point it out on a clearly drawn map, without labels on the countries. America unconditionally supports Israel becuase of the defacto Israeli government agent, AIPAC. If you do not believe me, then please read this.

It's very long, and I don't expect you to read the whole thing. I just ask that you skim through it. Read at least the first few pages. I do however, encourage you to read the whole thing. Documented support for the claim that Israel is in fact against US interests, and is simply milking it for everything it has.

I just want to say that for the record, I support Sadat's decision to not only make peace with Israeli's, but to actually go to the Knesset to announce it to the world. Sadat was a realist who saw through the insane world of the Arabs and wanted to distance Egypt from their politics. However, I have special respect for the late Sadat because he understood that dealing with Israel will require both, peacefull intentions, AND a military to physically deal with Israel. When Sadat took power, Isael refused, on many occasions, to sit down with him and negotiate for the Sinai. It wasn't until he launched that small offensive that got Israel to the negotiating table. His peacefull intensions were not enough. Just a lesson to anyone trying to deal with Israel.

You are right about all the reasons why Mexican youths join cartels, why inner city American youths join gangs, and why Japanese pilots killed themselves in combat. All the same as why I am right about why Palestinian youths are so eager to risk their lives in trying to figh Israel. They believe it is the only way. They believe that if they do not do this, then they will be exterminated off the face of the Earth. Much why you justify unreasonable force against them. Do not try to make historic argument to try and convince these people to stop the violence against you. It will not work and will never work. Try to solve some of their REAL problems, joblessness, extreme poverty, lack of adequet education, and then you will see results. Until then, do not keep up the same policies and expect something different, as that is the exact definition of insanity.

Again I do appreciate your comment. Myself also an American & Israeli. It is also my tax dollar to which you have alluded to.
It is all depends how one looks at this issue. You look at it from your own Arab Muslims pov. I look at it from the Jewish Israeli one.
There is nothing wrong with your right to express your opinion where your tax money is spent. You think, spending it on Israel is detrimental to US's interest in the ME. I think the opposite.
The question is, which one of us is better informed about the scale of the economic cooperation between the two countries, and their true effect on US. Since, I speak the languages of both countries, I dare say, I am far more informed (on this particular subject) then you, or other average Americans.
Respectfully, I disagree with your comments "Americans don't know, nor care about the Israelis" - that is not true. Majority of Americans DO care about a small country of 7M surrounded by 350M Arab who wish to destroy it.
You will be surprised to learn that, many leaders throughout the Arab states "hate" Israel to serve their own domestic agenda, and overall tribal obligation to play the group's agenda - not necessarily tp serve the Pals welfare.
I do recall during my studies at university here in US, many Arab students (Syria, Lebanon & Jordan). While in public, they would bash me and spew hatred of Israel, in private one-on-one, they would tell me their true feelings.
"Levy, we really don't hate you, we hate the Pals, who came into our country and live off us like parasites, and brought terror into out country. We admire you for your hard work and envy you for the freedom which you enjoy in your country".
Maybe it was because they belonged to the elite and the educated from their respective countries, All I know, we the Israelis have lot more friends throughout the region, then enemies.
Again and again my good man, I am asking the same question, if Pals (or other Arab countries) wish not lose their land, and knowing well of IDF's certain response, why do they provoke Israel in the first place? with nonsense attacks against civilians, which certainly result with them lose more and more land.
Had Syria, Egypt and Jordan back in 1967 not Provoked my country with close of the straits of Tiran, which was Israel's life line to the east, and amass a whole armies on Israel borders - Pals would have had the entire territory (WB, Gaza & E. Jerusalem) for their new state.
Finally. Between 1948 - 1967 there was not a single Israeli occupation of these area. Yet, Pals never ever demanded the Jordanians nor the Egyptians who were occupying their land, to leave. Nor they ever applied to UNSC for the same recognition as they are asking today.
This is the crux of the problem which many Americans ask.

Kindly, let me bring you another one of those "In their own words". see these two youtube clips where MUslim CLERICS (in one is An American convert) explain the purpose and meaning of 72 unused, brand new the latest models vagina waiting for the martyrs.

With raging testosterone, how much effort do you think it takes to incite these innocent young man to blow themselves up.

Mind you, not a single word of "Israel". Nor any mention of occupation is mentioned in both clips.

Well, that is the beauty of this country, no doubt. A Muslim and Jew getting together to respectfully debate an issue as sensative as this one. With both of us having all the freedom in the world to say WHATEVER THE HELL WE WANT! God/Allah/El bless America huh??

It's like you said, we're just coming from different points of views. I think you are wrong about saying you know about the economic impact of our so called friendship with Israel. I graduated from George Mason University with a degree in Economics. I studied History of Economics in America, Public Policy, and many other subjects that can closely be tied to this issue. Don't take my word for it, just look up GMU, I am sure you will be impressed by their nobel prize winning professors who inspire our econ department. Ever hear of Dr. Thomas C. Rustici? Look him up, a genious man, he was personally my professor in many of the classes I took and is regaurded as one of the most respected Econ professors in the country. So your claim to knowing more than me about the economic impact of this issue is only opinion, not fact. While I am not claiming to know more than you, I am confident that I know what I am talking about.

Aside from that, I lived in the US my entire life. Can you make that claim? I have friends that are white, black, and of every other ethnic decent. I know the wide spectrum of ideologies that this country has. I think it's intersting that you backed up your claim of knowing how Americans think about this topic by using non-Americans as your source. There are some Americans that think they should side with Israel becuase their government does. Our media is filled with biased reports about the events that take place in Israel. In spite of all this, you still have a growing number of Americans that are fed up with our foreign policy. When you have presidential candidates that say things like, "my foreign policy is to protect Israel," suspician of that politician must arise. Because I thought it was the duty of the American president to use foreign policy to protect America?? but that's just me. More proof that our politicians, just like Arab politicians, are not working for our nations interests, but for their own personal ones. After making a statement like this, AIPAC then floods their accounts with campaign money. Sad...but true.

You see, your whole claim is that Israel is "responding" do the "attacks" by the Arabs. While that is not fact, it is a pov. The Arabs believe they are "responding" to your "attacks." So how long are you willing to keep up this circle of insanity? When will someone stand up and say enough, then try to bring a real solution to the table? When will the Palestinians stop their BS and unite already? When will the Israeli's cut their BS and draw official borders already? As an American, I don't care for the so called Arab pride, nor do I care about the promises God made to Israeli's. I, as a Muslim, have chosen to not believe in the lies my parents' generation tried to pass off to me about Jew's. Will you reject the lies you have been taught about Muslims?

well again Habibi,
I read your comments with pique and interest.
You claim to have lived your entire life here in US. But you did not live in those countries (Israel & Islamic) on which we are discussing.

Despite your impressive academic achievements, you received your information, mostly from academic sources - not from tangible contacts with the subject matter.

I did live and spent the better part of my life in both an Islamic & Jewish state. (Perhaps that is one of the reason, Arab & Muslims bloggers can not convince me with their crocodile tears about the Pals - despite my sympathy to their suffering).

When you talk with Israelis in the streets of Jerusalem, Heifa & Tel Aviv. Or with Muslims in their own respective countries - listen to them express their views in public then in private, then you and I could talk like in Arabic they say Ta-khless (facts, to the point).

Knowing some of the beautiful attributes of Muslims, is the factor which helped me to form my opinions about Arabs. Muslims are the most hospitable and kindest people in the world - WHEN THEY WANT TO.

The core problem lays with the Muslim clerics, like Youssuf Al-Qwardawi, whom every night on Al Jazeera spews hatred, and sense of hopelessness, to more then 60M Muslims in the region, and no one dares to confront this thug - because he declares "Allah says so".

In regards to Israel's effect on American economy. Much of the benefit which Israel contributes to US comes in form of R&D and intelligence information, and advanced military tactics which saved the lives of many US solders.

Israel has more companies listed in NSDAQ then any other country, except Canada.

I suggest you to read a book which I just finish reading.
The Startup Nation, by Dan Senor & Saul Singer.
watch the clip describing Israel breathtaking innovation.

No, I cannot claim to have lived in any Islamic nation, and I've never even been to Israel. So you do have more of a right to take this personally than I do, I can give you that. I also understand the average Israeli citizens pov, all you see and have seen since your birth was Arabs trying to kill you and threatening to end your existance. So I get it, trust me, I do. However, what you're not getting, is that the Palestinian kid on the street has seen nothing but this as well. A kid at that age does not understand the complex political quagmire that is dragging this conflict along. All he/she sees is Israel expanding at the expense of what is supposed to be his/her land. Now, I am not saying that land is rightfully Palestine's or Israel's. What is done is done, Israel is where it is and it isn't going anywhere. So let's move on from here.

Israel, as the superior nation(as you and other pro-Israeli bloggers claim), should be the one to start this. Let's cut the crap that you are the underdog here. Israel was well capable of defending the borders that the UN originally gave to Israel from the get go. No Arab nation was even close to really challenging Israel's defence forces and you know this very well. So what is all this expansion in the name of "creating defensible borders?" Here is a start for Israel to achieve real peace. Draw real borders already and let the Palestinians rule themselves. If they really are just self distructing people, as you claim, then Israel will have nothing to worry about. And I personally believe that. If Palestine was given it's statehood already and given 100% autonomy and the ability to do whatever it likes, it will still never be strong enough to even put a scratch on Israel's defense forces. Neither will any other Arab nation. Israel has been a spectical of military genious from its birth, no one can deny that. Fighting wars and expanding its borders from literally every direction; north south, east and west. No one is here to challenge that Israeli's are innovative people that can benefit the world with scholarly research and things of this nature. But if you really do want to live in peace with a two state solution, then do it already. It is Israel that has the power to do this, not the Palestinians. Now we have already heard about all the "deals" that the Arabs have turned down, no need for you to repeat them in response to this. But it's like I said, the kid on the street picking up a gun or bomb does not understand that, and even if I, a Muslim, tried to convince him to do otherwise, it would not work. And I am not even sure if I would tell them to stop physically defending themselves. I mean just look at the Palestinians that have chosen to recognize Israel and stop physically resisting it, they are losing land every day to illegal settlements. It's either pick up a weapon and fight for their rights, or go back to a sh*tty life and watch on as your whole family suffers from extreme poverty.

Israel is the one with the power, do not forget that. This is not an even battle. So show your superiority if you are going to claim it. Draw your borders already, then say to the world, "This is officially the Jewish state. Anyone outside of it does not have to like us or recognize us, but they will live with us one way or another!" Then allow any backwards government lead the Arabs into deeper economic problems, which will lead to an even further decline in the status of that nation.

I stand by my point from the very beginning. Both sides share an equal share of the blame for this ongoing conflict. Every Israeli that is killed is becuase of its own governments policy, same with the Palestinians/Arabs. Also, did you know that the US Constitution denies the right of our government to give aid to any foreign nation? Now we give aid to most of the world in one way or another, but we demand a return on it by purchasing American weapons or goods, so you can see that as an investment by the American government. Israel's aid is the only one that comes with very little/or absolutely no restrictions. You can see it how you wish, but our friendship with your nation is harmful to the USA. More importantly it is Illegal according to our constitution.

Habibi,
I don't mine taking the time and share with you my conviction that, this conflict has little to do with land, and everything with state of mind - religious being the primary reason.

Most of us moderate Israelis, we have been voicing our objections in public that, continued expansion of settlements in the WB, do not serve our country's long term interest, and they need to stop. (Very few though, support the notion of giving up E. Jerusalem). Not only to allow Pals to go on with their lives in their own country. But as way to shut the Pal's claim of these expansions are obstacle to peace.

But you see!, our voices are drawn out, not only by our religious nuts like Gush Emunim, who want to throw the Pals out - rather by Hamas, with it idiotic rockets. The result is, the nationalist point their finger at Hamas as the reason for the need for strong leadership. We end up electing right wing government like Bibi, whom we believe "will get the job done" to shut Hamas with only language they know - force.

There is no question, Pals deserve to live in their own state. The question is, what is their real intention for their state. Again and again, I am bringing here the Pals own declaration and intent to destroy Israel by any means necesary. I have yet to see any anti-Israeli pundits (hey froy, where are you man? You disappeared on me. lol), show me the same type virulent hate filled speech coming from Israeli officials - not from the crowd.

It is the Palestinian leaders like Hamas, and some from PLO who go on on TV and swear, never recognize Israel, and they will not stop their jihad and other armed resistance, until all Palestine (read the entire state of Israel and part of Jordan) are "liberated" and cleansed of Jews. If they themselves admit of their real agenda vis-a-vis Israel, who are others (like you) to say otherwise?

And to that little Palestinian boys and girl whom you are referring to. I would advise him this.

Little Mohammad, we should respect people - regardless of their religious, or political belief. Naming others as "pigs & Apes", is an insult and disrespect.

Next time, when the Imam says to you Jews Apes & Pigs, where trees and rocks tell you to come and kill the Jew hiding behind me. You get up and tell the Imam.

"Imam!!! Are you meshuggeneh? Who talks to trees & rocks? - not me. We should respect others - not call them with ugly names.

Finally you ask him.

"Imam!! I don't care about others, I care about us. Why do you teach us to hate?"

We are finally getting to agree on some things. So I will take it from this post that you see the main problem stems from the leadership, of both sides. While you (an average common Israeli) are level headed and see that expansion into the WB is counter-productive to peace, your government sees it as an excuse to once again expand Israel's borders. Now the accusation is that this is all to fulfill the ancient religious prophecy. That is, afterall, the main reason for you to justify the creation of a Jewish homeland in Levant, is it not?

Now, I agree with Israel existing simply because it is there. Israel exists with all its might, anyone trying to deny its existance is an idiot, plain and simple. I do not agree or believe in punishing anyone for the deeds of their ancestors. While I do not believe it was right for the UN to create Israel in the first place, it simply is irrelevant today. There are millions of innocent Jews now living in Israel, none of them deserve to be harmed because of something their ancestors did. Same with my belief that Germans should no longer be punished for what some of their ancestors did to your people. My opinion of why Israel has a right to exist is irrelevant as well, I was just trying to explain my personal point of view and show you that it is definitely not the typical "arab" one as you claimed earlier. I also want you to see that all my accusations against Israel are aimed at its politicians and religious fanatics, not you or any other ordinary citizen of Israel who really wants peace. I know you don't want to live with rocket attacks and cross border raids every day. I know you don't want millions of innocent people being killed, whether they be Muslim or Jewish. I know Israeli citizens (most of them) are loving peaceful people that want nothing more than a land to call their own. Just like you justify the military response to any threat of destroying Israel, the Palestinians/Arabs justify any act of violence against you in the name of protecting their homeland as well. And with policies such as the one your government has, who is to really blame them? I blame their leaders, not them. Mr. Abbas is a much, much larger enemy to the Palestinians that Israel can ever be! Sadly, people like you and I never have a say in policies, if we did the world would be in much better shape than it is today. All we can do, as individuals, is give up the blind hatred our parents' generation has passed down to us. I am not accusing your, or my parents of anything, just using a general term here. There will never be true peace until a full generation comes about without any violence between the two sides. So I just try to do my part, which is reject the lies about Judaism, I just hope you can try to do yours and reject any lies you have been told about Islam.

On a side note, this Imam you speak of. I've never heard of him before, but I already know, he's an idiot. It's people like him that got me to hate going to mosques as a kid. Not that any of my local mosques preach anything even close to that. It's simply that ego that religious preachers carry. That mentality that they can say whatever they want so long as they are carrying out "God's plan." Freakin rediculous, I truely hope that guy deisapears from the face of the Earth, him and all the other leaders of other religions like him!

again, I do appreciate the comment. Yes we so agree on some points, and disagree on others.

The fact that you justify the existence of my country because "it is already there" - rather then, the fundamental right of Jews to live in their own state, free from further persecution, I find it very very disturbing, and reject it out right.

We are there, because of Jews fundamental & inalienable right to live like everyone else. A fact which was recognized by majority members of world community (UN) who voted in favor of Jewish state as homeland for Jews worldwide. The fact that, Arabs and many Muslims don't like, that is too bad.

When I talked about Arab & Islamic state of mind, this is what I mean. Even an American born, who grew up in democracy, and among Jews, you can not free yourself from the old baggage of "Jews proper place is, to live under Islamic rule", to which you seem to allude.

The bottom line is, yes Israel must control the fanatic elements who wish to fulfill their age old greater Israel to its former glory. Equally, Arabs & Muslims must alter their state of mind and fundamental view of Jews. Stop teaching their children hatred of Jews - thus destroy any chance of future understanding and tolerance between Jews & Arabs.

Look at how offended you got when I simply stated my opinion. What is the difference in the reason "why" I believe you have a right to exist? I believe in Israel's right to exist and that should be all that concerns you and any other Israeli. You'd be much better off with people like me in a seat of power in any Arab nation then the current Arab leaders. Like I said in an earlier comment, and I do not mean to offend you or any other Jew, I don't care about some religious prophecy you have in order to take someone's land. There is no disputing that there were PEOPLE, ethnicity and religion aside, living in the area which we call Israel today. The vast majority of those people not being Jewish and not wishing for a Jewish state to come in and take that land. Now, what was done was done, let's move on. I accept you as a nation(Jewish nation or whatever else you would want to be called) so what else do you want? I don't agree with what the European colonists did to the native Americans either, but your not going to see me trying to kill Americans of European decent for it. What was done was done, and a beautiful nation was born out of it that revolutionised the world! Maybe the same fate lies for Israel, who knows?

I myself, do now want to live under what most people believe to be "Islamic Law." Why would I want that for Jews? I have said this time and time before on this website, just because some idiot yells Allah before committing an act does not make that person a Muslim and it does not make that act an Islamic act. It was just some idiot who yelled something before making an idiotic act, nothing more.

I would look at the hatred that your culture has taught to you before looking elsewhere.

By the way, there are PLENTY of non-Muslim, Americans that did not come from any Arab or Muslim nation that do not believe that Israel should have been created in the first place. Just look as Cutters and Froy, are they too following the Arab & Islamic state of mind?

1. due to my tangible experience as a Jew, living under Islamic rule & Israeli, confronting the likes of Hamas, I have learned to make sure, we do understand each other the way both had intended to agree. Otherwise I would agree with your comment.

Comments like "well, you are already here, that is a fact. Nonetheless, in my book, you are still a thieve (stole land), and I hold grudge against you. Some distance in the future, when it is the right moment, I will come back at you to finish the job (of wipe you out)".
This is not the way how it works.

2. You yourself do not want to live under Sharia Law. Yes, I do believe you - Hamas does want to force me, and my country to live under the Sharia Law. They say loud and clear.
So habibi, whom should we believe to?. You or Hamas.

As I have said it before, it is not enough to say, "I will tolerate you because I have no other choice". Peace means, both sides tolerate & accept each other - not only their sheer presence, but also, their cultural, political system, history, heritage and language. Genuine peace mean all these.

3. In regards to "stolen land" nonsense. There is plenty of written documentations out there to prove that, the additional land acquired by Israel, was direct result of defending itself. It was true in 1948 & 1967. The only time Arabs won their land back was through peace negotiations. Ask Egypt how they received the Sinai.
(Egypt refused to get back Gaza, and Jordan did the same for E. Jerusalem & West Bank.)

finally, I don't hate Muslims - just have no time, nor the inclinations to waste my energy or emotional capital on this garbage. This is not the way I was educated in Israel, and this is not the I teach my children, nor my fellow Israelis.

I do appreciate that, while you do share the blame on the Pals, as much as Israelis for this tragic conflict. I don't know, beside giving the Pals all they want - the entire state of Israel, and total surrender to their demand, how else Pals will stop teaching their children to hate Jew, yet expect them members of society capable of living in peace with their neighbors.

Like I said at the beginnning of this debate, there is no need to argue this with pro-Israeli bloggers. You will never see another point of view. Who knows maybe your right, maybe your wrong, but I just want to say that your accusation that I am saving my "real" intentions for the Jews until I have the power to attack them is just rediculous. I am just looking at this from what has already happened and now looking for an approach to move forward. Again, I as an individual have rejected any blind hatred towards Israeli's/Jew's. That is all I can do. I am not a politician nor am I a wealthy business man who can sway public policies. I can only control myself, and rest assured, you will never see me trying to harm or kill innocent Israeli's/Jew's(the vast majority of you). Nor will you ever see me teach any hatred to my children (should I have them some day).

these talks and any future ones will never reach any end until the question of the "HEREDITARY PALESTINIAN REFUGEES" is addressed . The Jews sorted out their 900000 refugees w3ho fled from the Arab lands , in the 1940's and 50's
The settlement question is a red herring , as all the settlements in the Sinai and Gaza were removed when it was required
The Palestinians are still only interested in Israels demise , at the end of the day
Sorting the refugees may go some way to resolving the crisis of confidence that exists on the Israeli/Jewish side , as to the intentions of the Arabs

Why is it considered a "hard line" to demand of people to live by international law and bilateral agreements which they reached with their counterparts and on which they signed...??

The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), following the well established tradition of rejecting all peace offers, gestures and opportunities for an accommodation of peaceful coexistence between Arab and Jew, between the Muslim-Arab world and the nation-state of the Jewish people, Israel, going back to 1920, have also rejected those made during the past twenty years.

Since the Madrid Peace Conference of 1991 which was the commencement of the present peace process, the governments of Israel have proposed the following:

In order to better appreciate the major and risk gestures that Israel has made over the decades one should keep in mind the legal background of the conflict and the way to resolve it:

San Remo Conference, 1920

League of Nations decisions, 1922

United Nations Charter, Article 80, 1945

UN Security Council Resolution, 242, 1967

After "Palestine" - a territory, not a nationality of a state, mind you!! - was partitioned in 1921 during which 77% was handed over to the Arabs, who subsequently renamed it Jordan, the international community assigned the rest, 23% of "Palestine", the land between the Jordan River and the Med. Sea, to the Jewish people as its national home, 1922.

This decision was later, 1945, adopted by the UN and written into its Charter, Article 80, as an irrevocable decision.

No where was there a mention of the setting up of an additional national home or a state between the River and the Sea, no where!! And, UNSC resolution, 242, of 1967, on the basis of which ALL peace talks have been conducted not only follows the same line of not mentioning the need to set up an additional state, but also doesn't even make use of concepts such as "Palestine" - which ceased to exist many decades ago - or "Palestinians"!!

And, these are the fundamental documents which are part of international law relevant to the resolution of the Arab Israeli conflict!!

With discussions of fault and where(or when) a line should be drawn on a map we guarantee nothing but venom crossing the table. Once again I say the only way to go forward is to look forward. For a plan that addresses the biggest and most urgent problems( lack of jobs,food and water in Gaza ,Sinai and Negev)see http://www.fourponds.org.

Although I feel like I personally have nothing to contribute to your cause, I greatly support it. I also recommend people to read this, as it's a very good idea. The truth is a "peace treaty" will never actually solve anything. You must get all sides to be commercially connected. Then you actually have a dependency on the success of your neighbors. But so long as one side is economically developed and the other side is being choked half to death with blockades and such, you will never achieve peace!

Now, the headlines in some of the papers in the region state that Abbas blames Israel, again, for the failure of talks in Amman.

Having heard and read numerous blames by the Muslim-Arab leadership, local and regional alike, directed at "the other", generally the Jews of Israel, one wonders: does the concept of introspection, soul searching, self-criticism even exists in Muslim-Arab thinking...??

Once again, we are told, they blame us.

Let us enumerate a handful of major causes of blame that they have expressed since the commencement of the peace process at the Madrid peace conference in 1991:

1) They blamed Mr. Rabin for having drown his contour for peace in his speech at the Knesset, October 1995

2) They blamed Mr. Barak for having made his peace offer at Kemp David, Summer 2000

3) They blamed Mr. Sharon for having made his peace gesture of the Summer of 2005

4) The blamed Mr. Olmert for having made a peace offer in the Autumn of 2008

5) And now, they blame Mr. Netanjahu's invitation to them to sit down and talk peace, 2009 to present

It is high time even the more lenient among us began to question: Do these people actually want peace or rather they want Israel to commit a collective suicide before they are satisfied with Israel's "offer".

P.S. And, let us not loose sight of the fact that all talks are based on UN Security Council Resolution 242, the same one that doesn't even call for the setting up of an additional state between the Jordan River and the Med. Sea, and doesn't make use of concepts such as "Palestinians" or "Palestine"!!

P.P.S. And, each time they blame the Jews for refusing to meet their demands as extortionists, they commence a new campaign of violence and terror against the Jewish civilian population of Israel; each time!! Sadly, we must embrace ourselves for another such wave.

Unfortunatly almost everyone who reads it says "good idea" but-someone else has to do it. The only way to move forward is to have an Egyptian leader(perhaps encouraged by a Jordanian) say we do want to move forward and this plan lets us do it with benefits to all. Is that asking too much???

Well, in a way it kind of is. If i were an Egyptian leader or Jordanian or Israeli I would have taken this very seriously. Unfortunately I am not. I have however mentioned your idea to several people and have forwarded your link. But you must realize you are asking people to give up time, which is money, or money itself in order to try and help you. All the meanwhile Palestinians and Israeli's wouldn't even be able to agree on what to have for lunch.

I like your idea because I am largely against any "peace process." The only way to really bring peace to this region would be to create some commercial ties between the two sides. You can start with Egypt and Jordan making commercial ties with Israel since they already have diplomatic relations. Then build from their. You do not want to kill your neighbor if you guys are doing business together and helping each other grow economically.

"P.S. And, let us not loose sight of the fact that all talks are based on UN Security Council Resolution 242, the same one that doesn't even call for the setting up of an additional state between the Jordan River and the Med. Sea, and doesn't make use of concepts such as "Palestinians" or "Palestine"!!"

Yes I am sure with this typical Israeli mentality, a fair deal is being presented to the Palestinians.

I WANT YOU AND EVERY OTHER PRO-ISRAELI BLOGGER ON HERE TO READ THIS:

Politicians are scum bags! They do not care for the rights of individuals and they do nothing but work for themselves, as they would be expected to do so. Mr. Abbas does not represent the Palestinians, at least not the ones that are physically fighting against Israel. You are trying to attack this problem by pointing out the failures of the politicians on both sides. Now you are very biased, so I am sure you will not admit to Israel doing anything wrong to contribute to the failure of a peace deal. However, it is irrelevant (your bias). The real issue for you, as an Israeli/Jew, is how do you get those people to stop attacking, whether it be for revenge or not. How do you get the individuals who physically pick weapons up and fire them with the intentions of killing Israeli's or Jews? The reason they are so ready and willing to end their own life just to kill or even harm an Israeli or Jew is because they are literally living in HELL!! That kid growing up in Gaza does not understand the full scope of the issue. All he knows and has ever known is oppression, poverty, and misery. Your nation is chocking that kid, and then you have the nerve to call him a terrorist when he screams. If you do not want people screaming, do not chock them. It's quite simple.

DO NOT sit here and try to prove to me who started this conflict, which is the entire bases of your argument to justify this blockade and economic oppression of the West Bank. It does not matter. If you REALLY want those people to stop picking up weapons, then do not try to solve this issue from that point of view, you will fail. Try to come up with a solution so that those people have the incentive to keep living, and to reject the idea of giving up their lives just to harm Israeli's.

Terrorism does not necessarily mean you are strapping a bomb to your chest and blowing it up in the middle of a crowd. Terrorism is practiced by militaries too. When you fly the best American made planes into an impoverished area and bomb it at will, killing well over 1,000 people, many of whom are children and women, it is an act of TERRORISM. I do not care about the lies your politicians are telling you, how it was an act of defense. That is bull sh*t. All that attack on Gaza did was create a new generation of kids who are more and more willing to kill Israeli's or Jew's to avenge the death of their mother, father, brother, sister, neighbor, friend, etc, etc...

Hear! Hear!What it needs is not money(that would come from the fruit of the plan) but someone from the Egyptian side with the guts (and authority) to say "Let's do it". What button do we have to push to get that???

There have to be two sides to a table or nothing gets done.Just as there is need for a forward thinking Egyptian,there is need for an Israeli who sees peace as a desirable goal. Sitting down to devolop a plan that relieves problems (joblessness, hunger ,etc) and opens desert lands (Sinae,Negev,and Jordan) to cultivation and settlement could erase some of the venom that seems to infect both sides.

Judging by all the rhetoric here, it's pretty obvious that no peace process will be bringing Israelies and Palestinians together anytime soon. It's more likely that the violence will simply continue until someone does so repugnant, ( i.e. nuclear or biological ), that the rest of the world will twitch horribly in their sleep, passes gas and roll over. Meanwhile readers opinions will keep being expressed.

It is that subject of "STOLEN LAND" again. Even Arabs own highest religious authorities in Jerusalem admitted - JEWS DID NOT STEAL THE LAND, THEY BOUGHT IT LEGALLY.

Evidence of Haj Amin al-Husseini Before the Royal Commission, January 12, 1937
(Excerpt from that commission hearing).

SIR L. HAMMOND: Would you give me the figures again for the land. I want to know how much land was held by the Jews before the Occupation.

MUFTI: First of all I would like to say that one of the members of our Committee will deal later with the land question, but nevertheless I will give you the figures. At the time of the Occupation the Jews held about 100,000 dunams.

SIR L. HAMMOND: What year?

MUFTI: At the date of the British Occupation.

SIR L. HAMMOND: And now they hold how much?

MUFTI: About 1,500,000 dunams: 1,200,000 dunams already registered in the name of the Jewish holders, but there are 300,000 dunams which are the subject of written agreements, and which have not yet been registered in the Land Registry. That does not, of course, include the land which was assigned, about 100,000 dunams.

SIR L. HAMMOND: What 100,000 dunams was assigned. Is that not included in, the 1,200,000 dunams? The point is this. He says that in 1920 at the time of the Occupation, the Jews only held 100,000 dunams, is that so? I asked the figures from the Land Registry, how much land the Jews owned at the time of the Occupation. Would he be surprised to hear that the figure is not 100,000 but 650,000 dunams?
MUFTI: It may be that the difference was due to the fact that many lands were bought by contract which were not registered.

SIR L. HAMMOND: There is a lot of difference between 100,000 and 650,000.

MUFTI: In one case they sold about 400,000 dunams in one lot.

SIR L. HAMMOND: Who? An Arab?

MUFTI: Sarsuk. An Arab of Beirut.

SIR L. HAMMOND: His Eminence gave us a picture of the Arabs being evicted from their land and villages being wiped out. What I want to know is, did the Government of Palestine, the Administration, acquire the land and then hand it over to the Jews?

MUFTI: In most cases the lands were acquired.

SIR L. HAMMOND: I mean forcibly acquired-compulsory acquisition as land would be acquired for public purposes?

MUFTI: No, it wasn't.

SIR L. HAMMOND: Not taken by compulsory acquisition?

MUFTI: No.

SIR L. HAMMOND: But these lands amounting to some 700,000 dunams were actually sold?

MUFTI: Yes, they were sold, but the country was placed in such conditions as would facilitate such purchases.

SIR I HAMMOND: I don't quite understand what you mean by that. They were sold Who sold them?

MUFTI: Land owners.

SIR I HAMMOND: Arabs?

MUFTI: In most cases they were Arabs.

SIR L. HAMMOND: Was any compulsion put on them to sell? If so, by whom?

MUFTI: As in other countries, there are people who by force of circumstances, economic forces, sell their land.

SIR L. HAMMOND: Is that all he said?

MUFTI: They were NOT prevented from selling the land, and mostly the country was in such economic condition as facilitated the sale. If the Government had the interest of these poor people at heart they should have prevented sales and these people would not have been evicted from their land. A large part of these lands belong to absentee landlords who sold the land over the heads of their tenants, who were forcibly evicted. The majority of these landlords were absentees who sold their land over the heads of their tenants. Not Palestinians but Lebanese.

I am starting to assume you are the only one who recommends your comments. Like I said earlier, there is absolutely no point in arguing this with you. Your point of view that Israel has done absolutely nothing wrong since its official creation in 1948 is just rediculous. I just really like seeing more and more readers on here who see the truth. Note, that not one of us debating against you has claimed that the Arab/Muslim side is innocent, we have simply pointed out the wrongs of Israel, which not surprisingly qualifies us for being Anti-Zionists and Anti-Semites. Well, I can't be Anti-Semetic since I probably have Semitic roots in me somewhere, being of Egyptian decent. I know how much you love that fact.

2. Trust me, like many Israelis, I have lived through it all - from both sides of the conflict. As I write from personal experience. I know how both sides think, and well versed with the Judea & Islamic cultural. Their philosophy of life, and their respective views of the other side.

That is perhaps one of the reasons Arabs & Muslims can not BS me with the "Palestinian victimized".

3. As I have always maintained. Israel is part of the problem - NOT the only solution to this tragic conflict. Which seem to be the real agenda here for the Pals to solve the conflict.

4. It is more and more evidence that, through our knowledge of history, myself, taztaz and other pro-Israeli posters, we put forth a more convincing argument, based on facts - not fictions, which seem to resonate well with those readers neutral to the conflict.

5. As an Egyptian decent (my apologies to cutter for mixing his background with yours), I do not recall accusing you with antisemitism. If I did, maybe I thought you were coming too strong with your criticism of Israel as Jewish state. Sorry, I meant to insult to you.

Sorry I do owe you an apology, got you mixed up with tatz for a second. I just recommended your comment. (so we're even lol)

No offense taken to anyone trying to offend, or anyone just saying a statement. I have all the pride in the world that I am from Egyptian decent. I also have all the pride in the world that I am an American. For the record, you never called me an Anti this or that, just confused you with another reader.

You seem like a more level headed individual than Tzatz, seeing how you actually admit that Israel is not an innocent Angel in all this.

You see, I never said Palestinians are innocent either. Just the fact that they cannot even show a united face to the world is enough proof for me to say they are not innocent. However, I do not wish to turn this into a blame game, that has proved ineffective for decades. You and I can go back and forth for as long as this conflict has been around blaming the other side.

You say you have evidence to support your point of view. It isn't evidence, it's a point of view, nothing else. There are millions of people that can show you "Evidence" of Israel's guilt in all this. Again, we do not have to play the blame game, I can sit here and say the nastiest things about Israeli's and Jews but 1. it wouldn't be the way I truly feel about Israeli's and Jews. 2. it would be counter-productive to what I stand for, peace.

I too have dealt with Jews and Israeli's my whole life. In fact one of my first employers was an Israeli immigrant. He had an American name so I didn't know his parents were of Israeli decent. This is how the end of the interview went that landed me the job:

Employer: I just want to bring something out in the open before we take this any further. I am Jewish and of Israeli decent, I can see from your name that you are Muslim. I just wanted you to know so if it's going to be a problem we can settle this now.

Me: let me get one thing straight. You are considering hiring me because you see in me the skill sets you want in your next employee, correct?

Employer: yes

Me: And the basic agreement is I give you hours of labor in exchange for dollars for each of those hours?

Employer: yest

Me: your not going to try and convert me are you?

Employer: (hard laughter) no...no you don't have to worry about that.

The point in me telling you all this, is that I am not a biased against Jews or Israeli's....I am just trying to bring out some truth to readers and even out the playing field a bit.

No worries. I don't see any insult in being mistaken for being Egyptian (though I don't think I could pass for one somehow...) given the historical value that Egypt has and the more recent stance on political liberty (not to mention quite a long history of being quite a tolerant country) that it could in any way be insulting. French, Spanish, or German however, that would have gotten a strong rebuke, as would the more general term 'European'.

sadly Fory, you will never convince the other side that this was actually true. That 93%, of the land was wrongfully taken. Because of the "story" being taught in Jewish culture. The "Story" is that Muslims are evil monsters that want nothing but to kill your family. That same "story" is also being taught in the Muslim world (by some people, not all). It is the minority extremists on both sides that continue to feed bs propaganda to their populations. I believe MOST Jews are just regular old people who want nothing but the basic human rights. Same with Muslims. But there are people on both sides who do not want to grant EVERYONE the basic human rights. And those are the people we, ordinary citizens, should direct our anger towards...not each other...

a. Muslims never ever accepted the prospect of homeland for Jews in their own country - long before any notion of state of Israel was even dreamed of.

b. Heck, Hamas does not recognize even 1% of Israeli owned land. They say it loud, and say it clear. Whom the h...ll others to say otherwise?

c. The other 93% was acquired through act of self defence. Had Arabs accepted the UNR 181. Not attacked the one day old Israel in 15 May 1948, and in 1967. Rather accepted Jews desire for self government - who knows where thing would be today.

Oh stop with this bs. Israeli's never accepted the Palestinians' right to exist, and your expect them to accept yours?? Non-sense. Give them a reason to want you as a neighbor. All Palestinians have seen from the day Israel was created was oppression an TERROR!!

A. Palestinian Arabs, both Muslim and Christian never accepted the prospect of a colony for FOREIGNERS in their country, just like any other indigenous people would have done in their place and has done throughout History. This is not intransigence, it's common sense and rightful defense of your inalienable rights.

B. Hamas has long accepted the possibility of a Palestinian state in the 1948 borders. That is an implicit acceptance of Israel, which is already recognized by the PLO, anyway.

C. Israel began harassing Palestinian Arabs into exile long before the declaration of war from neighboring countries. Massacres like Deirdre Yassin had already begun. Hardly an act of pure "self defense". And, in any case, International Law explicitly forbids territorial gain by war, no matter the nature of such war. There is no such thing as "right of conquest" anymore.

1. that "Indigenous" crap again.
The Pals are as indigenous as their late leader Yasser Arafas (some called him Arabfart) was. He was born in Egypt, grew up there, and carried an Egyptian Passport.
How can anyone else believe in the bogus authenticity of the rest of the so called Palestinian, whom until 1977 called themselves "Arabs".

2. Yes in English they do say they want peace with Israel, but their 1988 manifest and in Arabic they tell their people of war & Jihad.
As late as this month, Ismail Haniya repeated the same slogan of never recognize Israel.

Allow me to add to your analysis of Egyptian worth for Europe and the rest of the world, that as (at least partly) Roma you should probably value all the centuries your ethnic group was known under the name of "Egyptians" (Gypsies).

Ufffff... Levy, here you come again with Arafat. Look, that one person (whose both his parents were born in Palestine, anyway) was born outside a certain territory, doesn't make the entire population of such territory "foreigners". This is a completely absurd idea. The vast majority of Palestinians are (or were, before Israel cleansed in 1948) indeed born in Palestine from parents and grandparents and untold generations of ancestors born in Palestine. Something that no Israeli Jew can say.

Secondly, Jordanians, Lebanese or Iraqis also didn't call themselves Jordanian, Lebanese or Iraqi 100 years ago. They called themselves "Arab". They still do. Does that mean they are not the indigenous inhabitants of their respective countries? You always chide others for not understanding what means "to be a Jew". It seems you don't understand either what it means "to be an Arab". You don't need to have your origins in the Arabian Peninsula. Most Arabs don't. They are mostly descendants of the different indigenous peoples conquered by Mohammed's armies, who ended up adopting their conquerors' language, culture and religion: Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Phoenicians, Samaritans, Jews... They're still the indigenous population. They're still Arabs.

froy,
On the same sense, you can also say, why the descendants of Jews who's parents & generations before were born in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt for thousands of years, they are also "Indigenous" to the region, no?. They also were expelled from their homes and land, and most were absorbed in Israel or the West.

Therefore, any Sephardi Jew (which make up 50% of the population in Israel), also could be labeled Indigenous

Why that definition "indigenous" crap, is reserved only to the Arabs and not Jew.

Froy,
If you wish to live in peace with me, cut the intellectual jibrish with me. Drop the "Arab Indigenous" nonsense, and I will not push the Arafat in your face. period.

I must say, it is you(the Pro-Israeli bloggers) that advocate all the non-sense of "who was there first." It is one of the fundamental blocks of your entire argument. It is a dumb basis for an argument, and you should look elsewhere if you ever wish to have friendly neighbors.

It so happened that I know about Gypsies much more than average person. I spent about 5-6 years when I was a teen among a huge retinue of Gypsy entertainers - singers, dancers, theatre and movie actors, and had a childish crush on a lady quite older then I was. :-} She later married a journalist from Norway, became a star of the Royal troop there. I learnt from her letters (to my mother) that college friends of her teenage sons in Oslo were, too, demolished by her loveliness many years later!

Excuse me for using this old term instead of Roma. Firstly, it's too fashionable in certain politically correct circles; and secondly, my friends all spoke and thought about themselves as Gypsies and never took any offence in being called so. They had the same attitude like we, the Jews: someone doesn't like us? Fine. It is their problem, not my.

The problem with the term 'Gypsy' is that (in the UK) it is also used for Irish/New Age Travellers.

The reputation Roma have is bad enough, but add in the other two... it's not a great state of affairs.

Roma my be part of my make up, but it isn't what I am. I am English above all other things (the Celtic side be damned, they haven't let me anything but genetics), and find it hard to understand why would would want to be referred by their ethnic/religious make up first. One my as well wear a symbol on public display and be pro-apartheid, if they put their race and religion first.

Let me clarify.
Since 73 AD when Jews were forcibly expelled from their land, they NEVER EVER had given up hope to return home. This is where the pressure point comes into play.

I never denied the right of others, including the Palestinians their right to live in their own country, under their own sovereignty. But you see!, Arabs do not recognize Jews (and other non-Muslims) the same right as themselves expect. (and we can argue about it to eternity)

Until our Arab & Muslim friends recognize the fact that, beside them, there are others who have their right to live in that part of the world. They also wish the same sovereignty, as Muslims do - rather being denied the fact, Jews ever lives in Israel or Jerusalem, as well as other far fetched theories about a society older then theirs.

Stop claiming that, Jews & Christians were actually preaching Islam, not Judaism, or Christianity, w/o a shred of evidence, and in defiance of any palatable logic and common sense.

These is the core and kernel of the conflict - not a sliver piece of land.

When Muslims highest religious authority (Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) stops quoting passages from the Qur'an, preaching hate of Jews, calling them with ugly names, then I am sure Israelis and Palestinians will have much better ground to live

Not true, friend. When Israel stops chocking the life out of children in Gaza and the West Bank and stops expanding illegally on others' property, then we will have much better ground to live.

Not to mention what the Palestinian(or Arab) side needs to do. Again, you are attacking this problem from a political point of view. Those individuals picking up weapons with intentions to kill or harm Jews/Israeli's do not care what politicians say. They care about their sad life that is filled with nothing but misery. Even here in the US, most Americans would agree, death is not the worst thing in the world. Ever hear a famous American quote?: "Give me liberty, or give me death!" That is what the Palestinian youth is feeling now. They will either die fighting for their liberty, or Israel can stop denying them that right.

with all due respect habibi. you claim I attack the Pals from the political pov. Actually no, I am talking from the theological one. We both know that, this conflict is just the manifestation of the 1400 year deadly conflict between Jews & Muslims going back to Mohammad himself, for their refusal to give up on their own heritage, and religion, and follow him. The Qur'an and Hadith have plenty and detailed description of this conflict.

"Give me liberty or give me death". No, not really. Again, we both know that the real slogan which motivates these innocent young Arabs with raging testosterone, is the 72 virgins waiting in heaven.

The problem is with communications between both sides, with mutual respect. Both have their share of this problem.

"why the descendants of Jews who's parents & generations before were born in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt for thousands of years, they are also "Indigenous" to the region, no?"

"Indigenous to the region" doesn't mean indigenous to Palestine. They were indigenous to Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, etc. Expelling them from their ancestral homelands or harass them into exile was a terrible injustice, and the right of return should also apply to them, so they can leave Palestine and return home if they wish to.

The "indigenous crap" is applicable to anyone born in the land of her ancestors. Samaritans are indigenous to Palestine. Moroccan, Iraqi or Polish Jews are not. It's not so difficult to understand.

For that to ever happen, we should all hope, then, that Israeli Jews become increasingly Israeli and decreasingly Jewish. But that is kind of hard in a state that officially declares itself Jewish, and denies the very existence of a "Israeli nationality". Arabs are purposely kept separated from Jews, so don't blame them now for feeling alienated.

" We both know that, this conflict is just the manifestation of the 1400 year deadly conflict between Jews & Muslims going back to Mohammad himself, for their refusal to give up on their own heritage, and religion, and follow him."

This is another favorite canard peddled by Israel: that this is some unsolvable millenary conflict based on irrational feelings, so there is no point in addressing it. Or, even better, that this is part of a greater conflict that pitches some obscurantist fanatical civilization with the "enlightened western world" Israel makes part of, when the simple truth is that this is a colonial conflict that goes back just as far as the twentieth century and merely involves the Israeli regime in its determination with creating a state for Jews alone at the expense of the indigenous population of the territory which, of course will have none of that mythological tripe and will not give up their ancestral homeland.

Jews have lived among Muslims for millennia and, despite that their cohabitation has been far from ideal, there has been no "war" among both faiths until the rise of modern Zionism, and they have fared considerably better in all that time than their fellow Jews in Europe and than many other ethnic/religious minorities across the world.

Yeah, I very much empathize with poor frustrated Israeli Arabs that are so eager to drop all the hyphens, but not allowed by the evil non-hyphenated Joos.

Except everything else it'd be an affront to oppressive Americans who are so fond of their own ridiculous ones... like African-American for those who of several generations don't even step on their presumably native continent.

Just like the former Palestinian Arabs' offspring.

Hey, Froy! You are such an accomplished campaigner... wouldn't you like to lead one international thrust for returning of African-American refugees to the land which is rightfully theirs? Why root for the Pals only?

"returning of African-American refugees to the land which is rightfully theirs?" You mean like that mess they made in Liberia? Actually, that example should have been a good cautionary tale for Western powers against giving Palestine to European Jews. Former slaves from North America were given a chunk of Africa, despite that there was no consistent proof that they actually came from that precise corner of the continent. Of course, the people already living there were not exactly thrilled with the idea. The result: 150 years of civil war, until natives and colonizers finally reached a power-sharing agreement.

Sounds familiar?

If European Jews had fought for equal rights in their countries of birth just like most African-Americans did in the US, instead of pushing for "return" to a land where they nor any of their known ancestors had ever set foot before, maybe the world would have been spared of so many decades of suffering and conflict.

I really hope you are being humorous here. I would really hope you do not really take yourself seriously when you make statements such as these. You cannot compare African-Americans to Palestinians. I'm not even going to go into the history of either group, but I truely hope you now either realize how rediculous of a comarison that is, or admit that you are just jocking around here.

haha that was a pretty clever jab you just took at Islam there. While I welcome anyone to criticize my religion, in any way, I just want you to be aware that I recognize your insult. I hope you also recognize, by now, that I am not a typical Muslim. I understand history and economic laws very well. I have also looked at this conflict from both point of views (the Israeli one and Arab/Muslim one). So please do not try and slip something past me and expect not to be slamed for it.

This comment you wrote displays perfectly what kind of mentality Israeli's have. You are trying to turn this into some kind of religious war, a Jewish Jehad if you will. When this is clearly not the point. Can you tell me why Mexican youths are so ready to risk their lives joining drug cartels as gunmen? Can you tell me why US inner city youths are so eager to risk their lives to "gangbang?" Can you tell me why the Japanese resorted to kamikaze style fighting in WW2? None of these examples of people in desperate situations has anything to do with Islam, or the belief that 72 vigins are awaiting for them when they go. Narrow minded people will always blame this on Islam, because it is the easiest thing to do, and it helps you sleep at night. "Your government is not killing innocent little children who want nothing more than a good life, they are killing little Muslims who will grow up to be big Muslims and Terrorists." That is what you use to justify what your nation is doing to others. There is a common theme between people living in extreme situations, they have little, or no, value for life. To them, death is an exit hole. So you see, habibi, this issue has nothing to do with Religion. Religion is a tool, much like a gun, but a much, much more powerful tool, especially when used on people of little or no education. Those people are willing to give up their lives because of their economic situation, false teachings of religion is only the label that is placed on it.

You say Palesine is not a real nation, and the Palestinians are not a real race/ethnicity/nationality. Well then, who is Israel trying to negotiate with? Why does Israel not just take all the land between the Med. Sea and J. River and be done with it already? If Israel is the only "real" nation in that territory, then why don't you take those Arabs (Mulsims and Christians) in and give them full Israeli citizenship with full on voting rights and the whole nine yards? If Israel shares so many values with the West, then they would have been happy to do this from the get go. But that is not the case is it? and you know that! Israel is a nation based on a religion, which is anti-Western values. They are a racist regime that denies people their God-given rights simply because of what religion they choose.

So, respectfully, you are wrong sir. "give me liberty or give me death," does in fact apply to the Palistinians

Of course, there are differences, too. Presumably, the Pals being removed to their brethren in Arab/Mohammedan countries, not to the hands of bloodsucking, white, Christian, conservative, racist... and so on slave-drivers, would have expected better treatment than African-Americans got. Alas, that didn't happen.

As a result, African-Americans prefer to stay with their former masters, and Pals are all too eager to leave behind their relatives' hospitality. Weird, innit?

oh man, where do I begin?, and what am I going to do with a petulant child like you.

Israel was founded as result of a majority vote in United Nation. That is the promulgation of the same International law, which Arab cite against Israel, and which themselves never accepted.

No "colony" has been voted to exit by UN. Period. So, lets cut the crap of your repeated "colonial" - much like the your other crap definition of Indigenous. (If Arafat the Egyptian was an Indigenous "Palestinian", then Jew who was born & grew up in Damascus or Iraq or Egypt, is also Indiginous to state of Israel)

Jews living in Islamic countries did not have it good. I know it from personal experience. So please leave your academic jibrish aside. There were no Wars, because Jews could not master the physical power to resist - until 1948 where they could - and how!!!.

I bring facts - you bring fiction, and conjectures with no credible evidence to back them up.

If you keep running in circles probably is because you're lost. Go back to my previous comment if you care for a rebuttal. It still applies. But something tells me that you don't come here to hear reasons and facts. Good luck with your Syrian Jews.

"You are trying to turn this into some kind of religious war,".
That exactly true - it is religious war. By the fact that Arab & Islamist refer to the land as "Waqf", and other religious term, indicated that for Muslim it is religious war.

"Can you tell me why Mexican youths are so ready to risk their lives joining drug cartels as gunmen?"
Reply: they do it for easy money.

"Can you tell me why US inner city youths are so eager to risk their lives to "gangbang?"

They do it because of a) rampant racism in US, which deprive them of fair shake in the education system and b) learning and getting job is lot harder then get a gun and rob innocent people.

"Can you tell me why the Japanese resorted to kamikaze style fighting in WW2?"

kamikazes had code of honor. They never went after civilian targets in Hawaii - even if they could. You can not compare them to the Muslim homicide bombers.

A well trained solder targeting pure military ships, is far different then sending a teen aged boy or girl with explosives to deliberately target only civilian s of their own age.

Finally. had the phenomenon of homicide bombings, and indiscriminate killing of civilians would have been confined only to the pals against Israelis, one could argue to the merit of the act.

Unfortunately it is not, as evidenced elsewhere around the world, where Muslim homicide bombers kill other Muslims with wholesale ferocity - with no connections to neither the Pals, nor the Israelis. It is part of the mentality of death and destruction which has been permeated by the teaching of one man who lived 1400 year ago, and one who still instilled so much fear on 1.5M innocent Muslims around the world.

"… a question posed by a Palestinian-American Republican at a CNN-sponsored debate in Jacksonville, Florida on Thursday night."

"Israelis would be happy to have a two-state solution. It's the Palestinians who don't want a two-state solution; they want to eliminate the State of Israel,” Presidential candidate Romney said.

Romney was responding when the man asked, "How would a Republican administration help bring peace to Palestine and Israel, when most candidates barely recognize the existence of Palestine or its people?"

Romney went on to say that “whether it's in the political discourse that is spoken either from Fatah or from Hamas, there is a belief that the Jewish people do not have the right to have a Jewish state."

"I believe the best way to have peace in the Middle East is not for us to vacillate and to appease, but is to say we stand with our friend Israel; we are committed to a Jewish state in Israel; we will not have an inch of difference between ourselves and our ally Israel," he added."

It's NOT ONLY THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES expressing these opinions …

Frankly … the 'Arab/Palestinian' who posed the question … is as 'thick' as you about the issue Bringthegoldstandardback!

Bringthegoldstandardback I wouldn't worry about Tzatz says. He is a fan boy of the extremest JDL, and thinks that if anyone goes to any court then 'they have had their day in court'. Just think of all the horrible and despicable judgements he is allying himself to with such a stance, which would have to include those courts run under Nazi occupation, South African Apartheid and those in countries where being gay is criminalised.

That is, unless our extremist Tzatz is being hypocritical with such statements.

Well... you know how Tzatz has this irrational way of interpreting any criticism of Israel and a condemnation of all Jews...

I sometime think that the Canadian authorities should be informed, as the wonderful guy in their white suits can make sure he is neither a threat to himself or others... I think it would be in Tzatz interest really, but can't bring myself to pity Tzatz enough.

Everyone is entitled to express his / her own opinion. Some use stronger language their others - it all depends on one's own experience and feelings on a given subject - Israel being one of them.

On wider perspective, you have to appreciate the fact that, unlike other ethnic / religious groups, to many Jews around the world, Israel means more then just another country far away.

After 2000 years of persecution, they feel connected to this small state through their common heritage, religious belief, pride and symbol of Jewish sovereignty over their own destiny and self reliance to govern themselves by themselves.

Therefore it is natural that, when Israelis face danger from their neighbors, it smacks right into Jews minds, hearts, and They feel (though indirectly for some) part of it.

When Israelis demonstrate advancement is science, industry, and military, it is natural that they feel proud, as affirmation to Jews core philosophy of education and learning - as well as their long record of achievements and contributions to mankind, evidenced by the unusual (compare to their demographies) number of Jewish Nobel Laureates.

While I do not speak for other Jews, or Israelis here, I am sure, that, the conflict with the Pals notwithstanding, many of us are proud to be part of Israel and feel this country is not getting its fair share of legitimacy and the Israel right to exist. We are not hesitant, nor shy to speak our mind on this topic

Then they should grow a thicker skin, particularly when they try to compare Israel to the west in terms of values etc.

I care not for Israeli pride, or any that have pride in Israel, but for the inconvenience that is imposed on the rest of us through the failures of Israel.

As for Tzatz, he supports the JDL which backs the EDL (English Defence League, part of the European Defence League) which share a philosophy with the Nazis and other fascist... so what does that make Tzatz.

well mister. If you don't care about Israelis pride, why should Israelis care about the Arabs & Islamists overinflated ego & pride - The Palestinians being the prime example.

I am sorry to jawbone with both of you gentlemen. Israelis are not going to ask anyone's permission, nor the approval for their inalienable right to their homeland, which the entire Christian, Jewish (and to a large part some level headed Muslims) world believe it to be the state of Israel

For past 1900 years, Jews never ever had given up the hope of some day return to the land from which they were expelled by force. (The fact is that, at the end of each prayer, Jews outside Israel have been chanting "Be-shanna Ha-ba'a be-yerushaleim" (In Hebrew, Next year in Jerusalem), and never forget Jerusalem, etc.

If Arabs, and other anti-Israeli elements like Muslim clerics, and other gullible Muslim don't like it, well....... frankly who cares?

It is particularity true and poignant, when these semi-illiterates clerics, are trying to re-invent other people history, heritage and religious validity, preceding their own religion by hundreds of years.

To be honored you have to earn it. If Israel's detractors wish to be respected, and taken seriously - claiming Jews & Christian prophets, they were preaching Islam - not Judaism or Christianity, it does not get them, nor the religious of Islam much respect, nor credibility from others. It is true not only on matters of religion, also the whole issue of the Palestinians as "indigenous" people entitled to claim other people's hard work - which is exactly what the Pals are trying to do, all under the bogus claim of "justice & fairness"

If the Jews want their home land back, then they should head over to Persia where they start from... Or do you mean the land that some nutter said that his invisible friend had promised them, in that case, they would do well not to heed nutters promising them things.

The current line Israel has taken hasn't got them anything other than animosity, one would think that they would have learnt to adjust in making concessions by now. The non-recognition of a Palestinian state is hardly peaceful, when expecting Palestinians to recognise Israel.

That's exactly my point Levy. We in the West do not give a damn about what you think God promised your people thousands of years ago. Your nation shares nothing in common with mine, even though you would stop at nothing to convince people the opposite. You are sitting here telling me what you chant at the end of your prayer to try and justify killing thousands and displacing even more. Now I am not insulting the Jewish faith, as a Muslim, doing so would contradict my own beliefs. Americans WILL wake up one day my friend. They will see how your nation is dragging ours down the drain, hopefully before it's too late. You should do one of two things:

1. Learn to accept that Palestine is a nation and they have all the rights that Israel does
2. Start sucking up to China, so in the even that Israel does suck America dry, you still have another up and coming super power to start leaching off of.

What is familiar, is your inclination to substitute the real issue with a false one.

Pals say the Holy Land is their; you say they're indigenous to it (as African-Americans to Africa). So I give you as a gift the bright idea to found a new movement called "Removing Hyphens"... but you're obsessed with Joos and wouldn't leave them alone even for the real grievances of "former slaves".

Well, OK... judging by what you say - in unison with Haj Amin Husseini - about the "poor Arabs of Palestine", they were not too different from the slaves exported from Africa.

By you, it's not a great idea to return them to Israel, they'd create Liberia-type mess as they did in Gaza and West Bank.... I agree with you, for once.

well, cutter. on the same level.
The current line Palestinians have taken hasn't got them anything other than animosity, and setback after setback. One would also think that they (Pals) would have learnt to adjust in making concessions by now. The non-recognition of a state (of Israel) by Hamas, is hardly peaceful, when expecting Israelis to recognise the Palestinians.

"One of the principles presented by Molcho is that, in a final settlement, most of the Israeli residents of Judea and Samaria will remain in Israeli territory, and the border will be drawn in such a way that most PA Arabs who currently reside in Judea and Samaria will be part of the Palestinian state.

The borders presented by Molcho are similar to the route of the separation fence, which was constructed in such a way that most of the major ‘settlement blocs’ remained on the western side of the fence. This includes Gush Etzion, Ma’aleh Adumim, Beitar Illit, Kiryat Sefer and Alfei Menashe. Israel insists that Ariel also be included as part of Israeli territory in a permanent status agreement with the PA."

AS stated in UNSC 242 … secure and defensible borders negotiated between the parties must be agreed on … the previous Armistice Line called the Green Line or the 'border on June 4 1967' … was never going to be 'the border' … it was the de facto 'border' … since the Arab/Muslims did not/would not speak about or negotiate with the Jews/Zionists/Israelis about the issue of a border since 1948 … (only through 3rd Parties) …

The 'terms' of the deal are known to both sides … it's up to the Arab/Muslims to get on with signing on …

Except that... Israel did not present any map showing how exactly they envisaged those borders... unlike the Palestinians. Netanyahu has refused once again to state clearly his intentions towards the Palestinian state. Is it so difficult to draw a map? You can't agree nor negotiate those "secure and defensible borders" if one side refuses to depict its own.

Obviously, the Palestinians will not accept a settlement illegally built deep inside their land with the stated intention of thwarting the creation of a viable Palestinian state, as is the case of Ariel, or one whose stated intention was to separate East Jerusalem from the Palestinian hinterland, as is the case of Ma'ale Adumim. These blatant examples of bad faith can't be accepted and rewarded as legitimate.

But at least Bibi could have been brave and estate his intentions clearly in black on white. Of course he didn't do so, because the map he has in his head does not depict a sovereign viable Palestinian state, but rather a string of bantustans closely following the current Area A demarcation.

Time is up for the charade. Now comes international pressure and popular action.

The talks in Jordan were to be PRELIMINARY … not final talks … THEREFORE … the 'principal' of what the Israelis envision was outlined … the PA has a map and knows where these places mentioned are located … draw your own lines on a map!

The PA can't 'stomach' the fact their 'ruse' … of going to the UN for recognition HAS NOT WORKED … therefore they will have to meet the Israelis DIRECTLY in EYEBALL TO EYEBALL negotiations … in order to 'secure' a state …

Abbas lost his gambit of getting his cake and eating it too!

Life's not so simple for the 'father' of a 'people'!

Why the long face Froy?

Things not going the way you expected in the PA? In the Arab Spring?

The road to modernity is long and there's many a winding turn ahead.

The Israelis are skilled at chess … the PA only good at checkers! Unfortunately … chess is a game of skill … finesse … imagination!

It's not really fair to point out your opponents weakness but what the heck … someones got to do it!

Israel was asked by the Quartet to present their map before January 26th. Palestinians did so within days. Israel merely put forward a list of their "security" demands, without offering anything concrete. It was THEIR ruse what was laid bare, evidencing that all they wanted, yet again, was another endless process with no end in sight. Israel wanted to mark the rules and the pace, and of course impose the outcome. Palestinians said they wanted none of it. They've had enough of this game.

The Israelis gave the Arab/Muslims their position … large settlement blocs INSIDE ISRAEL … look at the Wall and conceive of the fact that's the border … the same one that's staring them in the face … hello?

You mean that wall that is illegal under international law? What reason have the Palestinians to recognise an illegal construction, that runs through what is international recognised as their territory.

froy,
cut the crap with the intellectual foot dancing will you?.
If Palestinians really intent to have peace with Israel and recognize it as the Israelis wish to be recognized, they easily can insert this clause "territories with all improvements thereon". Which means, any agreement reached over territories, will include all existing buildings.
If that includes one or more settlement then, the Israeli settlers will receive just and fair compensation for their homes, and move into areas which will end up part of Israel.

These settlements will be turned over to the Pals, which would give them a better head start in their new state. Much better solution then to demolish them.

The Palestinians have put forward a map of what they would consider Palestine to be, Israel has not and never has done.

You're simply not putting forward any credible evidence, and the evidence as facts on the ground are the contrary. I do not see or read in the news about Palestinians building illegal settlements in Israel, building illegal walls or abusing Israeli Children in military courts.

If they have it so clear, why don't they put forward a map, like the Palestinians have done?

Answer: because that would mean making explicit the parts they will not keep. Would the map include the entire Jordan Valley? Hebron? the hilltops their fanatical "pioneers" have conquered and held with so much zeal? They don't say, of course, because as "facts on the ground" advance, more items can be added to that list, until they fulfill their true vision, where the only land allocated for (limited) self-rule to Palestinians are the Arab urban centers, disconnected and at the mercy of Israel. But the ploy is too obvious for Palestinians to swallow.

If they mean business, let them bring forward their map, and cut the crap.

froy,
the very reason why Israel no longer presents precise map to the Pals, it is due to the fact going back to 2000 Camp David. Back then, Arafat was pocketing each concession, and since then Pals never presented their own plan - including the recognizing of Israel by name which Israelis have chosen for them (Homeland for Jews).

Knowing full well that, Israel cannot, and will not accept any Palestinian refugees into their country against their wish - Pals keep harping on the same dead horse.

The same is true for E. Jerusalem. It is Jews spiritual center. As custodian of this city, no Israeli government will relinquish that responsibilities, and let control of it to the Pals.

Israelis are not going to ask anyone's permission to visit their holy sites, nor the Hebrew University - Israel's pride and its academic crown Jewel.

Time and time again, when negotiations gets to the stage.

"with this agreement, both parties declare an end to any and all future claims by, and from each side".

Pals refuse even discuss the merit of this clause. What does it tell you?. It certainly told a lot to President Clinton & Denis Ross back in July 2000 Camp David, and later in Taba conference in Egypt. Both had seen and hearing it for themselves about the Pals true intend.

Are you still surprise, why US is the leading party to veto any unilateral step from the Pals In UN to force Israel into a settlement which will not guaranty an end to the hostilities, and their security needs.

Sorry, Levy, but hasbara doesn't fly anymore. It is a well-established fact that Dennis Ross was, and has always been, an Israeli agent in the US administration, whose only task was to keep US policy in line with the Israeli one. Whatever he wrote, has little to no credibility.

Just in the same fashion, it is an acknowledged fact that the US has never acted as a neutral broker in this conflict, but rather as a cheerleader for the Israeli team, whose demands has consistently tried to impose on the Palestinians.

For these reasons, the only thing that Palestinians were offered in Camp David, was the kind of bantustan that Netanyahu is trying to peddle now with his "21-point document". A state with no contiguity, no control over its borders, airspace and maritime waters, and at the full mercy of its former colonizer. Arafat couldn't possibly accept such an offer.

In Taba, however, far more sensible proposals were put forward, and significant advances were made in all the core issues, as former Spanish FM Moratinos recorded at the time. The symbolic, but official, recognition of refugee rights was addressed, just like the necessity of sharing Jerusalem as the common capital of both peoples (not necessarily divided). However, just when positions were getting closer than ever, Barak walked out, and then reneged on everything said in the summit. He was obviously afraid of meeting the same end as Rabin.

What Palestinians demand is not only reasonable, but completely in line with International Law and the relevant UN Security Council resolutions (notably 465): the complete withdrawal of Israeli forces to the Green Line, to be established as the border between both states with minor changes to include those Israeli settlements that do not pose a threat to Palestine's viability (that is, not Ariel nor Ma'ale Adumim), East Jerusalem to be declared the capital of the new state (not necessarily dividing it, but rather sharing it), and the recognition of the plight of the Palestinian refugees expelled by Israel from their ancestral homeland and denied their right to return (without necessarily meaning a mass influx of them, but certainly some of them).

If Israel keeps maintaining its maximalist positions and its ridiculous offer of a bantustan whose borders doesn't even cares to define, then Palestinians have no reason to keep negotiating, given the evident bad faith of Israel, and are absolutely right to go instead to International Forums to seek the necessary action.

In his 2004 book "The Missing Peace", Dennis Ross wrote an 800 page memoir, detailing his first had account of the whole negotiations, and his relationship with Arafat over 12 year period (1988-2000).

I suggest you read it as I did, back to back, of the man's first account, then come back here and we will grill some more shish kabab of lies and deceit coming from the Pals & their supporters.

If Arafat indeed had questions about Ross's impartiality towards the Pals, prior to the Camp David of 2000, he had the choice to demand another mediator instead of Denis Ross. He did not. In fact, according the Ross's own account, Arafat WANTED him on the deal, not the other way.

Lies, lies and more lies from the Palestinian leadership. This has to stop. By now the western countries are convinced of the Pals real intent - remove Israel and replace it with Islamic republic of Palestine consisting of Israel & Jordan. That is the very reason for their luck of support of Palestinian state w/o direct negotiations with Israel.

Don't believe me, read Hamas, PLO own charters, and Dennis Ross book to get the truth.

I am not arguing as much for the Israeli policies vis-a-vis the Pals, as much for the Jews right to live in peace in their own ancestral land, and own country under their own government and sole sovereignty about their own destiny, w/o some hate filled crowed wanting to continue to dominate their lives.

Levy, I think there is no point in denying that Ross is as neutral an actor in these negotiations as Ariel Sharon could have been. While the guy has been declared "persona non grata" by Palestinians, he has direct access to Benjamin Netanyahu. For God's sake, he is working in (and a founder of) the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, AIPAC's think-tank! His sole role in the Obama administration was to thwart George Mitchel's. Only staunch Zionists will claim that Ross's books are anything but Israeli propaganda.

Secondly, I think that what the world has finally come to realize is Israel's true intentions of taking over the whole Palestine and ethnic cleansing it's indigenous population (or, as second best, penning them in miserable reservations indefinitely), under the cover or farcical negotiations without the slightest hint of good faith. The world is changing around Israel, and the regime doesn't seem to be willing to even acknowledge it. Colonialism is no longer kosher.

why?. because past experience with Arafat (and PLO) showed that every time Israel had made any concession, PLO just pocketed it, with no counter offer of their own - claiming not enough, give up more, and more.

It got to a point which Pres. Clinton told Arafat "take a hike mister". You came to Washington to negotiate with us over Israel's total and unconditional surrender to your sick objectives - not to make peace with them.

I told you Cutters, the blind hatred and bias will never fade. Israel is the innocent angel and the Arab's/Muslim's are the demons. That is Israeli ideology. Now in all fairness the opposite is true for most Arab/Muslim ideologies. And I am not here to defend the Arab/Muslims, they have blood on their hands and are just as guilty, in my opinion. But my issue here is the damage that Israel is doing to our nations. We are told by the Israeli's that our friendship is based on mutual values. Last time I checked we had absolutely nothing in common with Israeli's. Although Tatz doesn't like to hear this, I am speaking as an American here. We, Americans, believe in fairness and equality for ALL. Whatever your religion, race, etc. Israeli's clearly don't. We believe in seperation of Church and State, Israel (a nation built on religion) obviously does not share that with us. Religious fanatics only make up a small percentage of Israeli's; however, their political pull is worth much, much more than their percentage of the Israeli population. And make no mistake they are just as extreme as the Islamic fanatics. Americans do not identify with those values. Do not try to pull that crap, because it simply isn't true.

For the record I am an American of Egyptian decent and I am a Muslim. I believe in Israel's right to exist, as I believe in any nations right to exist. I just don't believe they have the right to exist on top of another nation, who in my opinion has more of a right to that disputed land. Does that mean I am calling for the destruction of Israel?? NO. What's done was done and my solution isn't to simply do the same wrong to the Israeli's that they have done to the Palestinians.

Tatz, you made previous comments, on this article and others, claiming that Israel is the only one making effort for peace. Well let's review the current situation. You have two main Palestine's right now, Gaza and what's left of the West Bank. Gaza is militant and is open and ready to use violence to protect their homeland. The West Bank, Mr. Abbas's led defacto Palestinian government, has renounced violence and has tried negotiating with Israel in a peacefull matter. Last time I checked, it was the side that chose peace who is currently being punished by having land stolen from them on a daily basis. So just as you say things like, "We gave them Gaza and look how we are repaid for it." Take a look at how you are treating their counterparts who chose a peacefull approach at dealing with you. Israel is giving NO incentive for anyone to deal with them in a peaceful manner.

Again, it amazes me how I can make the EXACT same point as other readers, yet I am the one being called names because of the land my parents happened to be born on. It's ok though because you are simply proving my point about Israeli's blind hatred.

You said: “…Israel (a nation built on religion) obviously does not share that with us. Israel (a nation built on religion) obviously does not share that with us.”

Again your ignorance is showing! Or is it your bias? All citizens of Israel live in peace under the Rule of Law … each can practice their religion freely without fear … you are simply impugning ideas that belong to Arab/Muslims and foisting them on Israel (is this reflex administered genetically at birth or in your mother’s milk?)

You did say: “… I am not here to defend the Arab/Muslims, they have blood on their hands and are just as guilty …” AND “ … make no mistake … are just as extreme as the Islamic fanatics …”

So while you admit the Arab/Muslims have blood on their hands and are extreme … you feel the ISRAELIS are just as extreme? Then you are an apologist for Arab/Muslims. You still don’t get that?

As a Egyptian Muslim … did you fight against Israel in any of the wars … 1967? … 1973? Did you side with Nasser or Sadat? That is, provoke war … warmongering … or advocate for peace/co-existence? Would you vote for the Muslim Brotherhood or Salafis or any Secular Party ?

The fact remains you’re wonderstruck at the American response to Israel … yet you claim to be an American albeit a Muslim American … then you don’t fit in with the majority of Americans who feel at one with Israel’s values … Israel’s security … Israel’s alliance with America …

The fact YOU DON’T GET IT … is due to your bias against Jews/Zionists/Israelis … that’s on you …

Israel exists is what you have to say? Thanks for noticing! Can you say Israel is the Jewish State or has the ‘cat got your tongue’ on this one like it has Abbas? Let me know.

Haha, you got serious issues man. Israel is THE JEWISH STATE. I don't understand what is wrong with saying that? nor did I know Mr. Abbas makes that stance. That's a pretty dumb thing to make a stance against while your lands are slowly being conquered by an invading force.

I see you're up to the same game of trying to engage me in a contest of who can insult the others culture and religion more. Well, just like last time, I'm not going to do it. I have no hatred for Jews. In fact I have a lot of experience with Jews here in America and I've discovered something remarkable about them....They are normal people like you and I (not as extreme as you as I must say).

Americans care so much about Israel, says the Canadian.
I have lived my entire life in the USA. I've never been outside of its borders for longer than 2 months at a time(summer vacation). I know Americans. Trust me, we do not care about Israel like you think. If most Americans learned about just how much Israel abuses our friendship, drags us into wars, and has effectively turned our foreign policy into the policy of the Knesset, they would never vote for a pro-Israeli president again. Americans love America more than they love Israel, make no mistake about that.
I love my country and I don't need confirmation that I'm American from some Canadian who is more pro-Israel than pro-Canada. Show's just how patriotic you are to your "Western home nation."

Explains very well and accurately just how great of a friend Israel has been to this country. But if that makes you feel too uncomfortable, then just call the authors Arab/Muslim apologists, Anti-Semites, or Anti-Zionists.

"Shows what you know … here’s the American Presidents from the beginning speaking out about the shared values of the two democracies … See: http://aipac.org/en/israel-and-the-us"

The only thing that shows is the power of AIPAC and the dependence American politician's have on the Lobby to finance their electoral campaigns. It proves little else. Even in the States, disgust towards the Israeli regime is growing (in the rest of the West it is the norm for quite some time already).

Most of the West sees Israel for what it is: a brutal colonial apartheid regime, thinly disguised by the trappings of democracy, but none of its spirit. Nothing we want to have something with.

AIPAC didn't exist in the the 1940's or the 1950's … it's a modern day creation! Look it up Froy … but for you the TRUTH that gets in the way of belief … is UNIMPORTANT … lol

The disgust that's growing is towards the ARAB SPRING … with its agenda of Islamism and Islamist Parties growing like weeds on the carcass/body politic of the Arab/Muslim Middle East.

Wait until these 'crackers' start spouting off their mouths on what their beliefs are … what they stand for … what they insist on policy-wise! I've got time to wait … no rush for me …

It's like this Froy … you've backed your 'horse' … you'll have to live with that choice … we'll see soon enough how 'wise' that choice was …

You said: "Most of the West sees Israel for what it is …" Yes you're right.

And they see the Arab/Muslim regimes for what they "a brutal colonial apartheid regime, thinly disguised by the trappings of democracy, but none of its spirit. Nothing we want to have something with." Froy you're describing Egypt? or Syria?

Certainly the Israelis are to be lauded … for maintaining their democratic principles while having to deal with such brutal, backward, vicious regimes on their borders.

You write:
Quote: "We, Americans, believe in fairness and equality for ALL."
Reply: Yes indeed, we American do. Arabs or Islamists do not. They believe every inch of land in the region is Waqf (Muslims land), where non-Muslims live under Islamic rule. That is not going to happen anytime soon.

Quote: "Whatever your religion, race, etc. Israeli's clearly don't".
Reply. So that Hamas, and most Muslims in the region.

Quote: "We believe in seperation of Church and State, Israel (a nation built on religion) obviously does not share that with us."
Reply: that is in theory - not in practice. America is a Christian majority country.

Finally, your allusion that "Israel was built on top of another (Arab) state", is totally wrong, insidious and outright false.

History is littered with evidence of Muslims hatred of Jews going back 1400 years. This is not new phenomenon, and has nothing to do with "dispossession of Pals from their land". This is just an excuse and tactic taught to them by their prophet. Nothing else. period.

In reality, right after fall of the Ottoman, the League of nations went ahead with plan to divide the region into sovereign states, based more-less on tribal, religion and cultural. All were Muslims, and one for Jews who has been living in the region before Christians and Muslims.

No one seem to have problem with it - except with the Jewish one. Jews had accepted (UNR 181) their share of the land - Arabs refused, and wanted it all.

Arab went to war (to deprive Jews of their right for own state), and lost that war. Now they cry foul for their wrong decision, and refuse to take responsibilities for their own corrupt leaders.

Amazing how Anti-Semitic, Anti-Jews and Anti-Israel the world still is... many of your comments and much of your publications The Economist follow this pattern. Sad to see that many of Israel's contributions to the world, to the region and to many Arab nations is overlooked and ignored. All of this has a religious root to it weather you want to acknowledge it or not. No, Jews will not recognize Christianity or Islam as the new covenant and will not convert to it. That's what the conflict is all about for thousands of years. Jews recognize the right of every human to exist and express their relationship with their Creator in any way they choose to do so. This conflict is about religion.

Anyone else completely sick of this Palestine-Israel affair? Amazing how a combined total of 15 million people (about 0.2% of humanity) have been holding world peace hostage for decades. About time people stop paying attention and let these 2 work things out (or not).

If the world had not a hand (or many for that matter) in this conflict I would have agreed. Whether the biginning of this conflict - promising and partitioning a land not theirs - or the israeli support for decades and the financial aspect of it being just one ...

I am with you on that point! GW, TJ, or AL would have definitely solved this issue, from an American point of view. Why? because they had enough sense to never commit to one nation unconditionally. They were true American leaders, working and fighting for America, not some other nation half way around the world. In fact, it is actually in our Constitution that citizens cannot be taxed any personal property in order to give it to another nation as aid. Now I understand that same constitution gave us the power to change up some things when needed, like if it were in American intersts to tax its citizens to give it to a foriegn government. However, this relationship we have has proven to be against US interests. Just read this and make up your own mind about our "friendship" with Israel.

The Israelis will not change while they America on their side. They have America on their side because of blind Jewish American support and the support of the Bible freaks. So, the Arabs and Muslims should just wait. In another hundred years, demographics will settle the issue.

I have read every single comment going back and forth between the two sides debating this issue. I just want to say to all the ones trying to call out Israel, just give it up. We all, reasonable people, see Israel for what it really is. We all see the Bull Sh*t peace treaties they put up, we all see the racism in their policies, and we all see their aggression in their military. For anyone who is willing to look at this from a non-biased point of view, we can all clearly see what Israel really is. The truth of the matter is, the people that are pro-Israeli bloggers here, probably don't see any of this because they have been tricked. Fed blind hatred about Muslims/Arabs from the day they were born until the day they commented on this article with hateful remarks and racist views. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME WITH THEM. They are naive enough to BELIEVE that Israel is a perfect little angel doing nothing but protecting their right to exist. I mean come on, they are "God's Chosen People" and that land they currently illegaly occupy was promised to them by "God."

We are sick and tired of fighting Israel's rediculous wars so they can fulfill some ancient religious proghecy. And now, we are in danger of entering into another war with Iran because of them. Iran has never, ever, posed any threat to the US or US interests in the Middle East or abroad. Yet we are constantly pushing them to declare a war, in which we would of course have to fight on behalf of our little spoiled "friend."

For all of you who wish to support your arguments with docs, check this doc out. Written by a professor at Harvard University and a professor at the University of Chicago, on US Israeli relations, and how they have been AGAINST US interests.

I am telling you, do not waste your time with these people. Although we admit and never deny the wrongful deeds done by the Arabs/Muslims, we are still called Anti this and Anti that, simply because we question some Israeli practices. Rediculous, dealing with these closed minded people is just rediculous.

These are the comments of an Arab/Muslim apologist … and an anti-Semite.

The Arab/Muslim agenda is not peaceful … the Arab/Muslim agenda is not for coexistence …
The Arab/Muslim agenda is not based on compromise/concessions …

Israeli leaders have made decisions on the 2 State Solution in 2000 and in 2008 … offering substantive Peace Deals

The PEW Opinion Polls results constantly show that an overwhelming majority of Israelis support a 2 State Solution …

BUT …

Israel will never allow a Right of Return of a single Arab/Muslim …

Israel will never allow a divided Jerusalem …

Settlements are a non-issue … since the major settlement blocs will be traded for land inside the current state …

The deal and its contours are known … it will take an Arab/Muslim leadership willing to make compromises and concessions in order to change the status quo ante … it seems impossible to imagine that leadership exists in Ramallah or Gaza City …

The Israelis will not now nor will they in the future ‘risk’ the lives of their nation as a gesture to appease Arab/Muslims …

Imagine for a minute … if there had been a deal to return the Golan in 2008? It was almost a ‘done deal’ … ask Erdogan but …

Can you imagine the security situation between Syria and Israel as a result?

The Israelis cannot make deals with tyrants or the MB since neither of them are reliable interlocutors … tyrants fall and MB’s can always suggest a referendum of their population IN ORDER to rescind previous treaties …

The Arab/Muslims are not ready-for-Prime-Time … they are not ready for modernity … check back in another 50 years and we’ll see where they are then … of course by then Israeli settlements will have grown as well … NOTHING STANDS STILL NOW DOES IT?

If I were Abbas or Meshel/Haniyeh … I’d make the deal NOW rather than later … but that’s just me …

As for the PREAMBLE thanks for admitting it's the PREAMBLE … Israel does not/will not move back to the 1967 borders … THERE WILL NEED TO BE ADJUSTMENTS … THEREFORE CONCESSIONS AND COMPROMISES ON BORDERS AND SECURITY … since UNSC 242 mentions … 'recognized and defensible borders' … it's up to the parties in question that is, Israel and the Arab/Muslims NOT THE PALESTINIANS who are not even mentioned in UNSC 242 … who speaks for the Arab/Muslims? Abbas? Haniyeh? King Abdullah of Jordan? Assad? Let me know … they're a many headed group without consensus except one … DESTROY THE STATE OF ISRAEL …

Tell us all again how great the Jewish Defence League is Tzatz... it is well known that your the extremest Zionist voice that comments here. Still worshipping Rabbi Meir Kahane.

No doubt been off visiting your buddies of the EDL, and any other group that condemns Muslims with xenophobic and racist rhetoric.

One has to wonder what kind of people Israeli Jews are, they certainly lack any kind of western values:"The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel reports that abuse is widespread (some editing to get to the points raised, full text from the British House of Commons:http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm101207/halltext/101207h0001.htm#10120726000002):

"Out of a sample of 100 sworn affidavits collected by lawyers from these children in 2009, 69% of the children reported being beaten and kicked, 49% reported being threatened, 14% were held in solitary confinement, 12% were threatened with sexual abuse including rape and 32% were forced to sign confessions in Hebrew (a language that is not spoken by most Palestinians (Some information from Defence for Children International)).

Sandra Osborne (MP):At the end of our all-party group's four-day tour of the occupied west bank, we arrived at the military court of Ofer. We were there to witness just how the Israeli military courts treated Palestinian children. The courtroom procedures were witnessed by our delegation in a tense
7 Dec 2010 : Column 25WH
and distressing atmosphere. There was a jangle of chains outside the door of the courtroom. All the visitors froze. Army officers led child detainees into the military courtroom. The children's legs were shackled, they were handcuffed and they were all kitted out in brown jumpsuits. One had to wonder if the soldiers felt threatened by 13 and 14-year-old boys.

We waited in the basic concrete courtrooms, looking at the uniformed judge and prosecutors. Two parallel processes happened. The judge, the prosecuting team and the defence lawyer discussed the case in Hebrew, with an interpreter translating into Arabic. No witnesses were called and no testimony was challenged. The judge never once looked at the children or spoke to them. Some children only met their lawyers for the first time in the courtroom.

The Palestinians have their own system for dealing with juvenile crime. I might add that we raised some issues about that with the Palestinian Prime Minister, who certainly acknowledged that there are problems with adult crime. The occupation has gone on for years, and the fact that Palestine is at least facing up to its difficulties and trying to improve the situation is laudable. However, it does not really matter what the legal system is. The system used by the Israelis breaks international law. That is completely unacceptable, and it is high time that something was done about it."

The text continues on how Israel continually breaches the fourth Geneva convention in both the handling of the Children purported (61%) of stone throwing, in majority of cases, these allegations are made by those inhabiting illegal settlements.

"90% of cases of alleged settler violence that are investigated by the Israeli authorities are closed without any charges being filed. It is a very different picture for charges brought against Palestinians, particularly in the way in which Palestinian children are arrested, detained and sentenced."

If you want to know who it is teaching Palestinian children to hate Israeli Jews:" Few Israeli settlers are charged with offences committed in the occupied west bank, but when they are, they are prosecuted in regular civilian courts within the state of Israel. Palestinians who are arrested, however, have to go to military courts and are held in military prison. That applies to children as well as adults. Palestinian children in the west bank go to military courts, but Israeli children go to civilian juvenile courts.The maximum period of detention between being charged and the conclusion of a trial is 6 months for an Israeli child, but two years for a Palestinian child. Bail is denied in 20% of cases for Israeli children, but in 87.5% of cases for Palestinian children. Custodial sentences are imposed in 6.5% of cases for Israeli children, but in 83% of cases for Palestinian children."

Your defense of criminals and then addressing court procedures is telling … perhaps we should give these children to Assad … for 'Syrian justice' … or to Libya … for 'Gaddafi justice' … or to America for 'Guantanamo justice' … or to Afghanistan for 'Bagram justice' … or to Iran for 'Basiji justice' …

Didn't children/minors perpetrate the Itamar atrocity … killing the Fogel family asleep in their beds … including decapitating a sleeping infant, and 2 children aged 11 and 4?

You said: "… they certainly lack any kind of western values …"

They’re in a court of law … due process … legal representation … conducted in a language they speak … I dare say Britain does no better than this … been to a court lately Cutters … you’d be amazed what you find … it’s incumbent on ALL PEOPLE OF THE WEST to due their duty and visit and appear as jurors in the law courts of your land … I have been called and was a juror in a ‘rape’ case not too long ago … it’s well worth the effort and you’ll really SEE what’s going on in your city/country … I was moved and was full of pride at my Canadian citizenship.

Israel is dealing with it’s own ‘shit’ in the best way it can … including the use of our treasured legal justice system … with WESTERN VALUES … you’ve blackened your own eyes … not Israels’

Minors in the UK are not subject to torture and threats, nor are they subject to such abuse from the legal system anywhere in the 'West'.

The research by the MP's fact finding mission found no proper due process, nor proper legal representation in the Israeli run system for Palestinians. Israel has the same values as apartheid South Africa, and a legal system that is nothing like those of civilised western countries, like Great Britian.

I know of no time in recent history that human rights campaigners were locked up in Great Britian, nor when a foreign member of Parliament was detained. Israel has done both, quite recently... Israel is far closer to its neighbours in values than the west.

Israeli Justice:

Arbitrary Detention and Detention of Children

Israeli military justice authorities arbitrarily detained Palestinians who advocated non-violent protest against Israeli settlements and the route of the separation barrier. In January a military appeals court increased the prison sentence of Abdallah Abu Rahme, from the village of Bil’in, to 16 months in prison on charges of inciting violence and organizing illegal demonstrations, largely on the basis of coerced statements of children.

In a positive development, in September the Israeli military issued an order raising the age of majority for Palestinians to 18 years; previously 16 and 17-year-olds had been treated as adults under the security regime. Human rights groups reported, however, that Israeli authorities continued to sentence Palestinians according to their age at the time of sentencing even if they were children at the time of the offense, and documented cases in which Israeli authorities arrested children in their homes at night, at gunpoint, questioned them without a family member or a lawyer, and coerced them to sign confessions in Hebrew, which they did not understand.

As of September 31 Israel detained 164 Palestinian children under 18-years-old, and also held 272 Palestinians in administrative detention without charge; Israel released at least 9 administrative detainees, but no children, in the prisoner exchange.

Israeli forces in the West Bank killed at least five Palestinian civilians as of October. After the end of an arrest operation, soldiers fatally shot two men while they were standing with a group of demonstrators who were throwing stones, B’Tselem reported. In another case, a soldier shot and killed an unarmed resident of Qusra who was protesting against settler incursions on village lands. Soldiers shot and killed an unarmed 66-year-old man in his bed after mistakenly entering his home in search of a suspected Hamas member, according to Palestinian rights groups and international media reports.

The Israeli government generally took no action against Israeli settlers who destroyed or damaged mosques, homes, olive trees, cars, and other Palestinian property, or physically assaulted Palestinians. In January a settler shot and killed a 15-year-old boy near the Palestinian village of Safa; in September a settler killed an 8-year-old Palestinian boy in a hit-and-run incident near Hebron. As of October 31 the UN reported 377 attacks by settlers that damaged Palestinian property, including almost 10,000 olive trees, and injured 167 Palestinians. On average Israeli authorities indict only nine percent of the settlers whom police investigate for attacking Palestinians or damaging Palestinian property, according to the Israeli rights group Yesh Din.

The 'Israeli' rights groups you're referring to don't exist in any Arab/Muslim country … they don't have access to media … access to freedom of movement … all the Western values we honour as members of the WEST … HELLO?

Without their reporting you wouldn't be aware … that says it all for me! These rights groups exist IN ISRAEL … end of story. Get it Cutters … 'can you spare me some cutter me brother?' lol

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have offices, representatives and volunteers throughout the middle east:http://www.hrw.org/our-work/defenders

Israel is as bad as any other middle eastern country, it arrests human rights activists without charge or trial like Abdallah Abu Rahma and Mohammed Othman (the latter is actually high up in the Human Rights Watch).

As for Israeli courts, they act in the same way as apartheid South Africa. Going on the same line of thought would justify the deaths of those that harboured Jews on occupied Europe and resisted against the occupation had their day in court... that's clear. You would have to agree it must be OK for Gay's to be executed if they were found guilty in Iran or some African countries, as would have been the arrests and hanging and imprisonment of Jew's in the Arab states... what were they complaining about, the accused had their day in court, that is very clear.

Fernando, the Economist's rules prohibit usage of proper names even when someone shows as much intelligence as you did in that post of yours about "nuclear proliferation rates".

But really... do you imagine states lobbing nuclear bombs at each other same way as Pals lob their home made BS petards to the Israeli territory?

If your intelligence and mentality are any indication for what Persians and their 'progressive' fans in the West are after, then the American and Israeli resolve not to allow them nukes is totally justified.

The world is wasting too much good will and energy on this comparatively petty conflict when there are much larger problems it needs to tackle. When two kids are slapping each other silly on a play ground over stuipid Sh*t over and over you dont join in their stupid arguments and try to resolve it, you tell them what needs to be done then show them the big stick you carry and give them the meanest look you can give'em

US EU and Major Asian countries can solve it in a single stroke, simply declear that:

1. All illegal west bank settlements will need to be removed and evacuated in certain time, after which it wil be bombed and razed.

2. All hostility including rocket firing into Israel need to be ceased or any perpetrators will be hunted down with drones/whatever other means available

3. Reach an agreement in 1 year or just carpet bomb the whole damn place, regardless of whoms on there after that time line.

its been almost 50 years. So much energy and potential wasted on this damn conflict. Enough is enough. Slap the two silly kids back into their senses. Again Dont borther try to work out between them because its just silly games now. Tell them what needs to be done, and be done with it either way!

Your defense of criminals and then addressing court procedures is telling … perhaps we should give these children to Assad … for 'Syrian justice' … or to Libya … for 'Gaddafi justice' … or to America for 'Guantanamo justice' … or to Afghanistan for 'Bagram justice' … or to Iran for 'Basiji justice' …

Didn't children/minors perpetrate the Itamar atrocity … killing the Fogel family asleep in their beds … including decapitating a sleeping infant, and 2 children aged 11 and 4?

You said: "… they certainly lack any kind of western values …"

They’re in a court of law … due process … legal representation … conducted in a language they speak … I dare say Britain does no better than this … been to a court lately Cutters … you’d be amazed what you find … it’s incumbent on ALL PEOPLE OF THE WEST to due their duty and visit and appear as jurors in the law courts of your land … I have been called and was a juror in a ‘rape’ case not too long ago … it’s well worth the effort and you’ll really SEE what’s going on in your city/country … I was moved and was full of pride at my Canadian citizenship.

Israel is dealing with it’s own ‘shit’ in the best way it can … including the use of our treasured legal justice system … with WESTERN VALUES … you’ve blackened your own eyes … not Israels’

Not at all, because Israel does not share 'western' values. That is the view of of the British house of commons, and the majority of the public.

No 'western' country would shackle 13-14 year olds, and that you condone this shows how sick you are. I doubt even in America, torture and threats of rape would be used on minors, let alone producing a confession for them to sign in a in a language they don't know.

You can rant and rave as much as you want, but the facts are that Israel has nothing that comes close to sharing western values.

No nation on the Earth is indigenous to the lands it inhabit now. Even the Australian Aborigines who lived undisturbed on that landmass for thousands of years had come there from some other place. And they didn't create a nation, didn't create a state for themselves in those thousands of years when they have been left alone by the rest of the mankind... so Brits came along and did it. Good on them!

That is why I find absolutely redundant the discussion about who came first to the Holy Land - Canaanites who have all the passionate empathy of Cutters (I wonder, what he really does know about them?), Hebrews, or other species of the Semitic race. What is sure, is that it wasn't any Arabic tribe... but it's irrelevant, too.

Even if the priority can be established with no doubt, it wouldn't mean anything.

Nations keep their lands because they can; and they lose them when they cannot. The so called international law, using all the politically correct rhetoric of course, upkeeps exactly this arrangement. Just think the plight of Yugoslavia - a sovereign nation, and member of the UN. They weren't able to retain Kosovo, and the 'international law' just handed it to Albania.

Which means that peace in Middle East is possible - through overwhelming fire power, as usual. Guess who has it?

Clearly, in reviewing the development of the Arab Israeli conflict during the past two to three decades, the strategic intent of the Muslim-Arabs, local and regional, has been to veil the international legal underpinning of the questions at hand and the way to resolve them. And, some, overly eager to reach a "solution" to this intractable conflict, opted to be manipulated into the make-belief "new paradigm" created by some Muslim-Arab leaders.

Obviously, the "new paradigm" has been only part of the imagination of those eager to achieve peace, thus it has proven unsustainable and two decades since the Madrid Peace Conference we are still dealing with the same fundamental questions that refuse to disappear.

Thus, why don't we all return to international law, the most objective method of dealing with disputes and conflicts, and set out to bring about an accommodation of peaceful coexistence (if indeed this what we hope to achieve...!!) between Arab and Jew, between the Muslim-Arab world and the nation-state of the Jewish people, Israel. A very good place to start is the following document:

Looking at this thread one understands how screwed up are the heads of those from Israel/Jew bashing brigade. They will repeat, and repeat, and repeat ad nauseum hundreds years old lies demonstrating only their own prejudices and doing absolutely nothing constructive for the Palestinian cause which they pretend to root for.

The real star in this regard is one who chose some kind of Chinese pseudonym. This guy even refers to the Protocols as if he indeed believes the 'document' were genuine!

Quote: "It was in 1921 that the Times of London proved that they were fake. And after that they were more and more believed and published everywhere. So I was interested by such a phenomenon. Why were they so successful? The answer is that they were not creating new ideas. They were reinforcing previous prejudices". Umberto Eco, on his recent best-selling novel The Prague Cemetery.

Indeed, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) has never wanted to achieve peace with Israel ("Palestine", mind you, is neither a nationality or a state and has never been; it is simply a name of a territory, 77% of which was handed to the Arabs back in 1921 while the rest, 23% of the territory of "Palestine" was designated to be "the national home for the Jewish people").

Let us keep in mind, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) was set up back in 1964; that is three full years before Israel captured the presently disputed territories during the Six-Day War. These territories at that time had been "cleansed" of their former Jewish residents and ruled by the Arabs. Thus, the question: which part of "Palestine" was this organization to "liberate"...??

"Andrew B. Adler" Is there a people without nuts...?? Fortunately, the man has just announced his resignation, something he should have done upon even thinking, let alone writing, his idiotic piece. But, better late than never, isn't it...??!!

The organizations of Im Tirtzu, IsraCampus and Israel Academia Monitor, have labeled about 10 percent of Israeli academics as anti-Zionist. The 10% occupy the headline with strong support for two states and 1948 principle.

They know nuclear weapons are useless to block all Palestines that surround Israel by david stars on Palestines' hand and heart.