Astus wrote:Dreams and imagination are not objects of the physical senses either, and it doesn't mean they are anything extraordinary.

I don't say dreams and imagination are anything extraordinary. They are conditioned by karma. The visions of Thogel are not.

Differentiating between products of mind and products of rigpa means separating mind and rigpa.

Well this is actually the purpose of a lot of Dzogchen teachings.

Either then mind and rigpa separated as difference between ignorance and wisdom - both are functions of the same mental continuum - or they are separated as minds of two different beings.

Your reasoning is not working with Dzogchen because you don't realize that for Dzogchen mind works in a mode of ignorance and Mind (sems-nyid) works in a mode of knowledge or Awareness (rig-pa). You need to distinguish mind from Mind and marigpa from rigpa, although for ease of exposition you'll find numerous teachings aiming at distinguishing mind (as a conditioned process) from rigpa (as an unconditioned process).

If they are like two different beings, it makes no sense to me to have two minds.

Either you don't understand what mind is in Dzogchen or you don't understand what Rigpa is in Dzogchen.

If they are functions of the same mental continuum, it is not possible to have both function at the same time, thus either everything is perceived with ignorance or with wisdom. In other words, either everything is the product of karma or the vision of enlightenment.

Rigpa is not dependent on mind because the mind is characterized by ignorance, dualistic grasping, etc. The presence or absence of these has no impact at all on Rigpa. Mind functions with karmic winds, Rigpa functions with the wisdom wind.

Malcolm wrote:You have a film on a movie projector. As you focus the image on the screen, the image appears to become brighter and more clear. But you have not changed or altered the film inside of the projector in anyway. Likewise, though the visions appear to increase and decrease, they are not actually increasing and decreasing. You can consider them to the visible expression of the mind essence, this is why these appearances are termed wisdom appearances since they do not arise from mind.

Are you saying that one always experiences the same visions, except that there are times when one properly focuses and times when not? That is, every experience is the same vision, but without the right eyes, they look like the ordinary five elements, but with the right eyes, they are the buddha families? Personally, I always thought of such a connection between elements and buddhas as rather symbolic, and not in a literal way that instead of a green recycle bin I see green Tara.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

You agreed that during remaining in rigpa one still hears noises, etc. and said that they are karmic products. At the same time, when remaining in rigpa, one has thogal visions, and they are wisdom products. Only sems has karmic products and only rigpa has wisdom products. Are sems and rigpa present at the same time? Can one be attached and non-attached concurrently? Because if yes, buddhas can still be afflicted. So that's why I don't really see how what you say is possible at all.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

Malcolm wrote:You have a film on a movie projector. As you focus the image on the screen, the image appears to become brighter and more clear. But you have not changed or altered the film inside of the projector in anyway. Likewise, though the visions appear to increase and decrease, they are not actually increasing and decreasing. You can consider them to the visible expression of the mind essence, this is why these appearances are termed wisdom appearances since they do not arise from mind.

Are you saying that one always experiences the same visions, except that there are times when one properly focuses and times when not?

No, Astus.

It is really useless to try and explain this to you over the internet. If you want to understand this, you must seek out a teacher and learn. Someone who can put the sugar in your hand and then have you taste it. Until you do that, you will not understand why Dzogchen makes the claims that is does.

That is, every experience is the same vision, but without the right eyes, they look like the ordinary five elements, but with the right eyes, they are the buddha families? Personally, I always thought of such a connection between elements and buddhas as rather symbolic, and not in a literal way that instead of a green recycle bin I see green Tara.

The connection between Buddha families and elements is not symbolic. It is actual. The element of air is Samayatara.

Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Astus wrote:You agreed that during remaining in rigpa one still hears noises, etc. and said that they are karmic products.

Yes this is correct, but the sensory perceptions you have while being in the state of Rigpa are not dualistically grasped by the mind, because you are functioning in the mode of Rigpa, riding the wisdom wind.

At the same time, when remaining in rigpa, one has thogal visions,

Not necessarily, if the key-points are not applied, you remain only in one side of rigpa.

and they are wisdom products.

Please don't reformulate wrongly: I said that visions are the dynamism of Rigpa. It is of no use to reformulate things in a different mode, this will only lead you astray. Try to jump over the vocabulary that may block your understanding right now and get the meaning in the terms of Dzogchen only.

Only sems has karmic products and only rigpa has wisdom products.

Formulate things like this: sems is characterized by dualistic grasing ; Rigpa is characterized as being beyond that, being nothing else but the direct knowledge of the natural state (for one part of its definition).

Are sems and rigpa present at the same time?

No because sems is functionning in the mode of marigpa and Sems-nyid is functioning in the mode of rigpa.

Can one be attached and non-attached concurrently?

You still have not gotten the meaning of these modes (tshul) of rigpa and marigpa.

Because if yes, buddhas can still be afflicted. So that's why I don't really see how what you say is possible at all.

[/quote][/quote]It is because you need to get the DI in an experiential mode (not that of Trekchö but that of the 21 DIs of Thogel). The explanation of the visions of thogel deeply depends upon the visionary anatomy of the body, which is quite unique to Dzogchen (although based on medical treatises for one part). I can't enter the details here because this is not the place to do so, but you have one channel connecting the heart to the eyes. This explains how Thogel visions arise. At the same time, that channel has branches which open in the sense organs, which means that the organs are functioning (you still see objects, hear sounds, etc.) but you are not perceiving them in the state of the mind: you perceive them in the state of Rigpa. The difference is also valid in terms of Trekchö (the details of which, with the re-arising of thoughts after remaing in Rigpa, are explained by Peltrul Rinpoche in his Glorious King text).

Last edited by mutsuk on Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As you said these masters are Kagyü and are probably more versed in Mahamudra rather than in Dzogchen. You should refer to Dzogchenpas to have a correct view of Dzogchen.

The nature of mind is without beginning or end, the visionary expressions are not. As they have beginning and end, they are dependently arisen, and as such, they are fabrications.

They are not fabrications, they are the natural dynamism of Rigpa (rig pa'i rang rtsal). Until you get the DIs in the context of Thögel, you'll have no clue at all what these visions are.

Can their be a function that is not conditioned? That would mean eternal existence.

You perfectly know what I mean by function here. You can put whatever verb you want under these terms the fact remains that mind works in the mode of ma-rig-pa and Sems-nyid does not. If you can't see the difference, it simply means you have no clue what the natural state is about and I think, as Malcolm advised you, it would be better to ask a qualified master to explain you the difference so as to get rid of the clinging to the mind. If you don't distinguish mind from Rigpa, you won't be able to discern what Rigpa is.

Malcolm wrote:Just to elaborate a point here: they are an entopic phenomena which arise based on a very precise kind of subtle anatomy which is unique to Dzogchen.

The method is unique to Dzogchen? The subtle anatomy is unique to Dzogchenpa? The phenomenon is unique to Dzogchen? ad nauseum... I find this statement a little confusing (and, yes, I have read the other 11 pages preceding this statement.

It is really useless to try and explain this to you over the internet. If you want to understand this, you must seek out a teacher and learn. Someone who can put the sugar in your hand and then have you taste it. Until you do that, you will not understand why Dzogchen makes the claims that is does.

Malcolm is right. These are innermost secret teachings that are really not meant to be debated or discussed openly on the internet or elsewhere.

And regardless of if you accept the secrecy context, the bottom line is what Malcolm states: there is nothing to be gained from this discussion. Either you accept the presentation of Dzogchen as the very zenith of all dharma practice, the very essence of all paths. . . or you don't. Or, a third option is perhaps you are agnostic.

If you accept it, then you will find a teacher who can teach it, and study under them. If you don't accept it, there is no point in arguing about it. You simply should focus on your path of choice, and be happy that there are some few people that have a practice they like. . even if they feel it is the pinnacle of the teachings, why should it bother you? I don't think there is danger of missionary coercion, so it should not be threatening to anyone. This is how the lineage of masters framed the practice, so students of the lineage-holders will not abandon that outlook just to please someone on the internet.. it is just up to you to accept it or not, and leave it there.

If you are agnostic, you may be motivated to study it a bit, attend some teachings, stay open minded. But debating it is surely not a way to make an auspicious connection if there is a chance you may want to practice it someday.

So let's put this somewhat aggressive discussion to rest. Let us drop the Thogal debate. For now, I am locking the thread. If anyone has a good reason to reopen it, PM me.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha