Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider
registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

__________________/dann"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

__________________Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working﻿ with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill MollisonBiome Carbon Cycle Management

The boy required 57 days of inpatient acute care, including 47 days in the intensive care unit. The inpatient charges totaled $811,929 (excluding air transportation, inpatient rehabilitation, and ambulatory follow-up costs). One month after inpatient rehabilitation, he returned to all normal activities, including running and bicycling. Despite extensive review of the risks and benefits of tetanus vaccination by physicians, the family declined the second dose of DTaP and any other recommended immunizations.

Unbelievable how stupid people can be. I wonder who paid those medical costs.

__________________Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Measles in Washington — like many recent measles outbreaks in the US — has been spreading in a particular type of community: tight-knit and traditional.

In Washington, the virus has predominantly hit Russian-speaking groups hailing mainly from Ukraine and Russia, according to a source close to the matter. These groups have the lowest rate of vaccination of any population in Washington, the state’s most recent data shows.

And they’re not unique. An ongoing measles outbreak in New York involves mostly people from an undervaccinated Orthodox Jewish community. Since October, 304 people have been sickened by the virus — the highest number in the state in decades. Before that, it was vaccine-refusing Amish in Ohio and Somali Americans in Minnesota.

Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin said he made sure all his nine children were exposed to chickenpox and caught the disease instead of giving them a vaccine.

"They had it as children. They were miserable for a few days, and they all turned out fine," Bevin said in an interview with WKCT, a Bowling Green radio station.
Bevin and his wife, Glenna, have nine children between the ages of 5 and 16, according to his campaign website.

__________________"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald

The announcement comes as measles cases in the United States have surpassed the highest number on record since the disease was declared eliminated nationwide in 2000.

The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention confirmed the milestone Wednesday, saying that it has counted 695 cases in 22 states this year. With outbreaks spreading, President Donald Trump on Friday stressed the need for Americans to get vaccinated.

"The vaccinations are so important. This is really going around now," Trump said. "They have to get their shots."

__________________"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

A Canadian resident from British Columbia who traveled to the Seattle area in late April 2019 has been diagnosed with measles. The traveler, a man in his 40s, has since recovered from his illness.

Prior to arriving in King County, he spent time in Japan and New York during the period that he was infected, two places that currently have measles outbreaks. This case has no connection to the recently-ended measles outbreak based in Clark County, Washington state.

While he was infectious with measles, he spent time in the Seattle area at several locations, including popular tourist attractions and Sea-Tac Airport. Anyone who does not have immunity to measles through vaccination or from previously having measles is at risk for infection if they were at a location of measles exposure.

"This case is another reminder that measles is resurgent in many areas of the United States and the world, and that because we all travel, no community is safe from measles introductions," said Dr. Jeff Duchin, Health Officer for Public Health – Seattle & King County. "Measles vaccine is safe and effective - all adults and children should be sure they are up to date with the recommended doses of the vaccine to protect themselves and their community."

As anti-vaccination groups fight back against public health campaigns to promote immunization in the face of measles outbreaks, some Canadian doctors say the battle has escalated beyond social media platforms to personal threats and attacks.

"The pitchforks are coming out," said Dr. Anna Wolak, a family physician in Vancouver who has publicly spoken out on social media about the importance of vaccination — both as a doctor and the mother of three children. ...

"[They said] I really hope that your kids get a vaccine injury and then you'll know exactly what sort of poison you're talking about," she recalled.

Although those interactions have been hurtful, Wolak said she has not received any "overt threats" of physical harm — something that has happened in recent months to at least two other Canadian doctors.

And of course this, because that's what social media does to people:

Quote:

emails ranging from harassment to threats — about 200 of which came from the same email address — since the fall. ...

The threats to both doctors were reported to police.

Both physicians said police told them the IP addresses for the emails were in the U.S.

It's always the anti-science crowd that gets the loudest and is most effective in the social media realm. It used to be right-wing radio (I assume they are still there). Now it is social media and it's a goldmine for spreading misinformation.

That's because public health authorities have been "relatively slow" to respond to anti-vaccination propaganda in ways that are appealing to social media audiences, he said. Instead, they have relied on the assumption that "putting out the truth and factual information" is enough.

It's always the anti-science crowd that gets the loudest and is most effective in the social media realm. It used to be right-wing radio (I assume they are still there). Now it is social media and it's a goldmine for spreading misinformation.

There’s one part I really do not understand: the apparent, quite mild, response to direct threats.

Do the police have to wait until someone is actually, physically assaulted (or worse) before they take action? How is such action by anti-vaxxers different from an IS threat, say?

I don't know about Canada but I'm pretty sure someone has to assess that the threat is real. How far away is the threatening person, does he have a plan, has he acquired a weapon,...that sort of thing.

__________________Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

I don't know about Canada but I'm pretty sure someone has to assess that the threat is real. How far away is the threatening person, does he have a plan, has he acquired a weapon,...that sort of thing.

I did some digging on this; suffice it to say that it’s ... complicated. In general, threats are taken seriously, which is comforting.

Just how stupid can a person be? And it has been proven: a group of people can be more stupid than any one of them individually.

What the episode of the Brady Bunch shows is that measles was not considered a particularly dangerous disease before the vaccine became available. Other shows dealt with it in much the same light hearted manner. Why?

The only counter argument is that people back then just didn't know how dangerous measles is. That makes no sense. Measles has been around forever. Other diseases were recognized as deadly but somehow, the 'deadliness' of measles was not known. Until a vaccine was available, that is.

__________________It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan

In the vast majority of cases measles means an unpleasant 7 - 10 days, the percentage of cases which result in permanent disability or death is very small. But when most children get it, even a small percentage means a lot of deaths.

In 1980, 2.6 million people died of it,[7] and in 1990, 545,000 died; by 2014, global vaccination programs had reduced the number of deaths from measles to 73,000.[9][16] Despite these trends, rates of disease and deaths increased from 2017 to 2019 due to a decrease in immunization.[17][18][19] The risk of death among those infected is about 0.2%,[5] but may be up to 10% in people with malnutrition.[7] Most of those who die from the infection are less than five years old.[7

__________________"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

Most people are not 'anti-vax' in that they don't advocate for the banning of vaccines. They are anti-mandatory vaccine. They believe, rightly, that no one has the right to force a medical procedure on someone without their informed consent.

There is no test to determine if you're at risk of adverse side effects from any vaccine. So every shot you get is playing Russian Roulette. If you want to play, fine. But no one has the right to force others to play.

Vaccines are not 100% safe, as evidenced by the adverse effects listed on the insert. If someone is injected against their will, and they die as a result, that's tantamount to murder.

__________________It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan

There is no test to determine if you're at risk of blindness or death if you get measles either. So every shot you don't get is also playing Russian Roulette.

__________________"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

Most people are not 'anti-vax' in that they don't advocate for the banning of vaccines. They are anti-mandatory vaccine. They believe, rightly, that no one has the right to force a medical procedure on someone without their informed consent.

There is no test to determine if you're at risk of adverse side effects from any vaccine. So every shot you get is playing Russian Roulette. If you want to play, fine. But no one has the right to force others to play.

Vaccines are not 100% safe, as evidenced by the adverse effects listed on the insert. If someone is injected against their will, and they die as a result, that's tantamount to murder.

And this is the same sort of ignorant argument made against seat belt laws.

And yes, we absolutely DO have the right to perform medical procedures without informed consent (read up on the concept of implied consent for the most common example).

And speaking to risk, that's the most idiotic argument yet. The risk levels for any vaccine, even the anthrax vaccine which is about the highest risk one I know of, are at least an order of magnitude more rare and less severe than the risks of the disease they protect against. Speaking to charging people with murder, by your own argument, that's EXACTLY the charge we should apply to parents who don't vaccinate their children, if their children die of an otherwise preventable disease.

Besides which, vaccination is not mandatory, unless you want to attend public school. And that is perfectly rational; if you want to be a septic harbor in your own house, that's one thing. You have no right to put other's children at risk. Vaccines offer protection via herd immunity as well as individual resistance, both important. So can we also charge the by-choice unvaccinated with murder when they infect the immuno-compromised that cannot be vaccinated?

What the episode of the Brady Bunch shows is that measles was not considered a particularly dangerous disease before the vaccine became available. Other shows dealt with it in much the same light hearted manner. Why?

The only counter argument is that people back then just didn't know how dangerous measles is. That makes no sense. Measles has been around forever. Other diseases were recognized as deadly but somehow, the 'deadliness' of measles was not known. Until a vaccine was available, that is.

Funny, my mom knew it was a deadly disease in the 50s.

In fact, it wasn't until the vaccine had been around a decade that people began to forget (or never learn) how bad the disease was because after the vaccine came out in 1963, cases became rare.

You are judging what a whole population thought of measles based on one ignorant screen writer. The Brady Bunch was on from 1969 until the '70s.

__________________Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

And yes, we absolutely DO have the right to perform medical procedures without informed consent (read up on the concept of implied consent for the most common example).

Ahh thanks for the update. I was always under the impression we are all born with equal rights.
But apparently, according to you, some people have more rights than others. How does that work? Who has the right to bestow superior rights on certain individuals?

I guess you believe some people are naturally born with more rights than you.

__________________It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan

Most people are not 'anti-vax' in that they don't advocate for the banning of vaccines. They are anti-mandatory vaccine. They believe, rightly, that no one has the right to force a medical procedure on someone without their informed consent.

There is no test to determine if you're at risk of adverse side effects from any vaccine. So every shot you get is playing Russian Roulette. If you want to play, fine. But no one has the right to force others to play.

Vaccines are not 100% safe, as evidenced by the adverse effects listed on the insert. If someone is injected against their will, and they die as a result, that's tantamount to murder.

You post the same naive arguments as the anti-vaxxers do.

Do you have a right to discharge a firearm into the air in the city? Why not?
Do you have a right to race up and down residential streets at 50 MPH over the speed limit? Why not?
Do you have the right to only feed your child celery? Lock them in a hot car? Leave a toddler home alone while you go out and party? Why not?

Sorry dude but your right does not include putting other people at risk. There are public heath laws for a reason.

__________________Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

All of the five new cases in this area were infected at SeaTac airport on a single day. There are 6 more people waiting for lab confirmation, not sure where they were exposed but it is likely they are secondary cases.

I'm surprised we haven't seen larger outbreaks from airport exposures until recently. But it is evidence when herd-immunity drops off to a certain threshold, boom!

__________________Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

There were several 'ignorant' screen writers, as I pointed out other shows gave measles the same light treatment. So you believe they just didn't know how deadly it was, despite measles being around for centuries?

Funny, I didn't know it was deadly in the 50's when I had it. My friends' parents didn't know it was deadly when they brought their children to my house for a measles party. It was mildly uncomfortable, and we all got over it with no lasting effects, except lifelong proper immunity.

I'm judging what a whole population thought of measles from first hand experience. The Brady Bunch and other shows simply reflected the attitude at the time.

By your logic, people now have forgotten how deadly are smallpox, the plague, etc.

__________________It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.