Interesting information on the "Christianity is a copy of Pagan Myths" Theory

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
First off, despite the admitted paucity of literary evidence from which to draw definitive conclusions on the matter, it is clear that those ... who
try to make a case for the late arrival of Mithraic ritual in the Roman west are overlooking certain key passages in Plutarch.

Are you quoting someone here? Because I have just referred to Plutarch...

To expand what I wrote: modern scholars think that Plutarch was wrong. It is known from archaeology that the Tarsians venerated Perseus, who also
wore the phrygian cap; but there is no archaeology for Mithras whatever before the middle of the first century, and that is not in Tarsus, but in
Rome. All the earliest archaeology relates to inscriptions in Rome, or by people who have just come from Rome. Therefore -- they infer -- the
evidence is that Mithras was invented in Rome, and the statement in Plutarch is merely a mistake.

Now I have no great fondness for arguments that involve disregarding data; nevertheless, if we are going to assert a Tarsian origin, how do we explain
the archaeology? (See Manfred Clauss, The Roman Cult of Mithras for the consensus of scholars in this area).

... Appian of Alexandria ... stating that these Cilician Pirates of Tarsus ... came into existence from the surviving remnants of the Mithradates’
army which was comprised of various eastern elements of Persian extraction:

At least this would at least explain why Plutarch thought these Cilician Pirates practiced a form of “foreign Mithraic” rituals:

Could be. The confusion of name between Perseus and Mithras would then be explicable in Plutarch, if we chose to speculate.

In other words, Roman Mithraism was already beginning too set down roots in the greater Roman Empire before "Jesus" was even thought of

I do not see this; and arguing that the Orontes was flowing into the Tiber 150 years before Juvenal seems anachronistic to me. All we're saying is
that we should accept the statement of Plutarch, which, as I have indicated, has certain problems. But even if we do, the rest does not follow from
it.

I've snipped very substantially, because (no offence) I think you're putting your ideas at too great a length, and so losing sight of what is being
said. I don't think your argument has lost anything from what I omitted?

As far as plutarch talking about mithraism in turkey, (and this is comming from someone very much outside the source material on this), is it possible
that Plutarch thought that because they were persians, that therefore they worshipped the big persian god mitra? Perhaps that this even results in the
confusion between the later phyrgian cap wearing Mithras and the older god Mitra?

And of course none of these should be confused with the goddess, mitra. Rhona Mitra.

For some time now I have refrained from posting on this thread because of the sentiments of many on here and the controversy which is so easily
stroked in many by this topic line.

Of considerable concern to me is the tendency of so many to automatically label the Roman Church ...as representing Christianity ..all of Christianity
carte blanche....to automatically play through representing all of Christianity. I dont go along with this. I am not debating the point that there are
not believers among the Roman Catholic flock but that the Church does not represent christianity carte blanche and is infact a perversion of it.
No where in any instruction for a Christian church do you find instructions to build huge edifices to the Glory of God. No huge buildings or
monuments to the Glory of the Church. None. No where do you find any instruction ..Period...to put up a Obelisk. Yet you find a Obelisk right in
front of St Peters in Rome in the midst of a avenue of pillars. This is right out of the pagan instruction manual. The Obelisk is the male shaft of
the Occult God Baal...the "Lisk" Baal's Lisk. O Baals Lisk. This is never found in Christianity anywhere. Period. Nor do you find this instruction
anywhere to the Hebrews...ever. Especially under the Law of Moses..or the Torah. You do however find this in Pagan lore..and instruction.
This applies to so many so called Christian Churchs. It also means that Paganism has been making inroads into Christianity. Not the other way
around. Paganism has been working privily to infiltrate Christianity and overtake it with much success to unknowlegable Christians. The amount of
ignorance among many Christians is often a source of astonishment to me and it should not be so..having read much history.
You can find much of this infiltration especially the infiltration and adoption by the Church at Rome in a book titled...

The Two Babylons
By Alexander Hislop

One thing becomes clear by this text..though Alexander Hislop covers civilizations other than Rome, it becomes clear that Rome was never
Christian. They always intended to steer slowly ....Christianity back to paganism. Secretly and privily. They are not the only ones doing this. There
are others. Rome has competiton from other psuedo christian sects in this field.

It is clear that the Hebrews in the olde testament were given specific instructions on how to handle and not handle themselves in the land given to
them by thier God. They violated this over and over ..continually though occasionally hey had leaders who would repent and turn around and go back to
the teachings and way of their God. But by and large they disobeyed... and were punnished over and over for this disobedience as they did what the
pagan nations around them did.
We even have the record of them and their leadership secretly adopting the traditions of the pagans as if it was the Law of Moses without most of
the people even being aware of this. The exact same thing the Christians are doing to day.
But to say that Christianity or the Hebrew religion is a copy of the pagan religions or the Ancient Mystery religions is not true. No where in the
Hebrew religion under the Torah or the Christians under the New Testament do you find instructions to carry on as do the pagans. It isnt done. No
where do you find this.

OF particular intrest to me is the fact that you dont find any of the fertility rituals or festivals being approved of by Jesus or the Apostles.
None..indicating that this is a different base from the nations surrounding the Christians. These are also the instructions given to the
Hebrews..under the Torah..of which they disobeyed...resulting eventually in their distruction and diaspora.
Christianity and the Hebrew religion under the Torah have a very different origin than the Pagan Mystery religions. Very different. This is
historically obvious to those who know the history. It is paganism that has infiltrated the Hebrew and Christian religion...without many even knowing
about it. This is a clear fingerprint of the Ancient Mystery religions and the method under which they have always operated. It is not so with
Christianity. The Ancient Mystery religions have always operated in secret.

the planet has been thru many births. so perhaps different entities have made attempts to cultivate/steer the planet , and give us the guidance
it/they thought we needed.

these stories , somehow survived and were passed on as myths , what a shock to think that we get destroyed [ pole shift , planet flip ] every so many
thousands of years and most likely due to being greedy and destructive [ of course no one sees the connection here, due to lack of clear cut , action,
reaction ] , but never being able to see clearly thru the money to see the error of our ways.

the myths all have a typical ending/beginning to an advanced civilization , suddenly destroyed [ most likely an earth change but could be atomic as
well ]

If you really think “that Modern scholarship thinks Plutarch is wrong” about the date of the introduction of Mithraic rites into the greater Roman
Empire via the “Cilician” Pirates c. BC 67 you are grossly misreprenting the facts and your half-truths are misleading the people reading these
threads.

See the article written by Marquita Volken and edited by Richard L Gordon (Lausanne, November, 2003)

Volken (M.), "The development of the cult of Mithras in the western Roman Empire: a socio-archaeological perspective", Volume IV, 2004 (English,
Word 2000, 125.5 KB)

In this revealing article Volken goes to some length to demonstrate the exponential growth of the Mithraic cult within the larger Roman Empire and is
able via mathematical algorithms to retroject the beginnings numerically back roughly to the time Plutarch says it occurred, viz. c. BC 67.

QUOTE

“Plutarch’s description of the pirates’ rites has in the past been often considered insufficient proof of the introduction of the cult into the
Roman world, since he says merely that the Cilician cult continues ‘to this day’ (i.e. ca AD 120).

But Plutarch’s remark, which can hardly have been taken from his probable source, Posidonius, does reveal that an Anatolian cult of Mithras was
known to him. In the absence of any other date for a founding group, Plutarch provides a convenient base line for our projection.

The years around AD 70 do, as Beck has pointed out, seem to be significant in the cult’s development:

But in my view it is incredible that a cult that only began in the Flavian period could in such a short time have accumulated the numbers of adherents
and the cultural adaptations implied by the archaeological evidence - especially a secret cult that used violent initiations, and that was not linked
to the rich social elite.

The scenario looks more plausible however if we shift the founding group back in time, to the previous favourite candidate, the Cilician pirates of
Plutarch, Vit. Pomp.24”

If we assume a maximum group of 1,000 Mithras cult members in the Roman world in 60 BC, and a growth rate of 23% per decade, we obtain the following
figures at a growth rate of approx 23% per decade for the Mithraic Mysteries cult members which fits fairly closely the numbers we see in the late
first century AD...”

"...Archaeologically, the cult of Mithras seems to appear ‘suddenly’ in the last quarter of the first century (AD) in several locations
geographically distant from one another.

What does this imply about its date of foundation?

Comparison with early Christianity is instructive.

We know from the written documents that have survived in the New Testament and elsewhere that organised Christian churches, had existed since the
missionary journeys of Paul, now dated between AD 50/1 and his execution in AD 64.

Yet recognisably Christian artefacts are virtually absent from the archaeological record before about 180 AD.

If we did not possess the written texts, a circumstance entirely due to its historical success, we would no doubt also assume that Christianity came
into existence during the mid-second century AD by studying the archaeological artifacts alone.."

UNQUOTE

These statements echo my own position fairly succinctly, and corresponds fairly closely to what is now the modern "scholarly consensus" on this
subject.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
If you really think “that Modern scholarship thinks Plutarch is wrong” about the date of the introduction of Mithraic rites into the greater Roman
Empire via the “Cilician” Pirates c. BC 67 you are grossly misreprenting the facts and your half-truths are misleading the people reading these
threads.

As mentioned earlier, I am merely repeating what Prof. Dr. Manfred Clauss says. I don't have any way to know personally, of course.

See the article written by Marquita Volken and edited by Richard L Gordon (Lausanne, November, 2003)

Now I have read this, and I see nothing in this that contradicts what I have read and repeated. This is a single article, of course, not a
description of the scholarly consensus. You may not know that the website author, Richard Gordon, translated Clauss' book into English?

Rather than argue with me, why not email Dr. Gordon and ask him? If I am wrong I would be interested to hear it.

These statements echo my own position fairly succinctly, and corresponds fairly closely to what is now the modern "scholarly consensus" on this
subject.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
Archaeologically, the cult of Mithras seems to appear ‘suddenly’ in the last quarter of the first century (AD) in several locations geographically
distant from one another.

Wasn't mithras very popular amoung the legionaries tho? That would allow for rapid growth, within the closely knit army units (who also wouldn't be
appalled by any violence and were probably as bored with the whoring and boozing as most modern armies are), and also explain it being in lots of
different geographic regions. Look at, say, the spread of Freemasonry within the British Empire, that might provide a decent analogy, and it spread
with the colonists and troopers to great numbers across the entire globe.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
No where do you find any instruction ..Period...to put up a Obelisk. Yet you find a Obelisk right in front of St Peters in Rome in the midst of a
avenue of pillars. This is right out of the pagan instruction manual. The Obelisk is the male shaft of the Occult God Baal...the "Lisk" Baal's
Lisk. O Baals Lisk.

I really wouldn't pay any attention to that etymology. Whats a lisk anyway? And the word cleraly pre-dates english. It seems like the worst
kind of folk etymology really.

edit to add
here we go, the actual etymology Etymology Online
from L. obeliscus "obelisk, small spit," from Gk. obeliskos, dim. of obelos "a spit, pointed pillar, needle."
Not 'oh, baal and his big 'lisk'" rather the obel, the shaft.

The name obelisk, denoting in European languages the Egyptian and egyptianizing monuments, derives from Greek οβελισκοç (obeliskos),
'small spit'. This name was given to Egyptian monoliths by Greek mercenaries who served the pharaohs in the 6th cent. BC. It reflected the
fascination of the unusual shape of obelisks, referred to also in the Arabic word ﺔﺂﺳﻤ (misalla), 'a large packing needle'. The Ancient
Egyptian term for an obelisk was tekhen. The etymology of the word is not clear, but it can possibly be related to another word thus pronounced,
meaning 'a door-leaf'. Since obelisks were set in pairs, the ancient Egyptian texts usually refer to tekhenui, 'the two obelisks'. Hatshepsut, a
female pharaoh, ruling in 1473-1458 BC, proudly spoke in her inscription in the Karnak temple (fig.1): 'The king (i.e. Hatshepsut) himself erected
two large obelisks for her father Amun-Ra in front of the main columned hall, covered with electrum in great quantity. Their heads pierce the sky and
light up the two lands like the sun-disk. Nothing has been done like that since primeval times'.

I am reading with interest this thread on pagan origins of Christianity. I have been Pagan all my life and as well, have studied world mythology and
the world's religions. 6 years ago, when I was in the Louvre museum in Paris, I saw NUMEROUS statues and figures that were made way before the birth
of Christ. Many, many of them contained "Christian" themes; i.e., I saw the holy trinity as characterized by Osiris, Isis and Horus, the holy family
of ancient Egyptian mythology. As well, there were other such "coincidences". This is proof enough right there to make anyone question how original
the Christian story is. It is a known fact that Paganism existed well before Christianity. (Otherwise who would they have converted in Europe?)

The Egyptians got their mythology from even more ancient middle-eastern cultures; the Greeks got their myths from the Egyptians; the Romans myths came
from the Greeks and the Christians obtained many of their ideas (most of which come from Paul, a notorious mysogynist) from the Romans. Yes, there
were many Christian sects the first century or 2 after Jesus, but these were gradually eradicated and subsumed by the Catholic church. ALL modern
Christian religlions have derived from the Catholic church, since for so many hundreds of years it was the only game in town. Then along came
"heretics" who left the church and started their own, such as Martin Luther (a notorious anti-Semite) adding their own ideas, however right or
wrong.
ALL present Christian holidays were originated by the Pagans; the Christians simply superimposed their religion on the Pagans, because they knew they
would get more converts that way. Today, the Christian religion is much changed; but the basic ideas/celebrations are not original, they come from
other cultures and were "borrowed" and moderated until they are what they are today. If one is Christian or Pagan, it is important to know where
your religion came from and why you believe what you believe today. THe fact that Christianity is a "hybrid" takes nothing away from it, as far as
I'm concerned. The story of Jesus is a story of redemption and sacrifice, the same as can be found in all ancient mythology. They are all beautiful
myths that we can learn much from.

In order to understand any religion you must understand the symbolism. For example in the bible there are 4 holy numbers. 3 7 10 40. Three days until
resurrection, 7 days, 10 commandments, 40 yrs in desert and you can see those over and over again. Now lets understand creation as it was ment to be.
The ancient hebrews thought that the world was like a dome, or rather an over turned cup in water so a bubble kind of. and if the dome leaked in
rained and stuff. So any way the 6 creation days were divided into the dome and things inhabiting the dome and each is divided again. So look at
this.
make up Dome---------------------------live in dome
1. light/ darkness----------------------- 4. Sun/ moon
2. water in sky/ water on ground------5. Fish/ birds
3. land/ sea-------------------------------6. animal/man
So now it looks like this
1|-|4
2|-|5
3|-|6
Now if you take these numbers and combine them with the oposite 1+6; 2+5; 3+4 for each case you get 7 7 7 thus it is holy 3+7=10 really HOLY

This classic analysis that you've outlined (which follows modern critical scholarship rationale) pertaining to the literary arrangment-format of the
Bere#h ("in the beginning" = Genesis) Creation Myth #1 (which can be found in Gen 1:1 to Gen 2: 4a and continued by the same Formulaic
Priestly/Hezekielite writer at Gen 5:1) shows that we are here dealing with hymnology or at any rate poetry, not science or "fact" in the modern
"positivistic" sense...

This kind of poetical/liturgical format seems to echo some of the Babylonian Creation Myths (which would date the creation of this myth to the time of
the prophet Hezekiel anyway, c. 520 BC) which were sung at the Ritual Fertility festivals of the New Year Ceremonies each Spring where the number 7 is
important (see the Yahwistic adaptation of the Canaanite Psalm Hymn to Baal in Psalms 29, where HaBu Baal Benei (BBB alliteration) is altered to Habu
Yahweh Benei Elim appears with its 7 fold peals of thunder (QOL = thunder, voice).

Which is another reason to see the 1st Creation Myth in Genesis as poetry not scientific fact in the modern sense.

The 2nd creation myth has a different order of creation and a different "divine name" beginnining in Gen 2:4b as most people familiar with these
myths will readilly recognise.

Again, mythological theologising using Babylonian (and even Egyptian) motifs and modern day "science"... despite the fundamentalists insistence on
Gen chapter 1 being "scientific fact..": your diagram explains why Vegetation can come BEFORE the sun, the moon and the stars in the myth which has
stumped fundamentalist Christians for centuries....

I find it incredulous how people swallow just the information which backs up their own viewpoint, irrespective of illogical it may be. There are as
many websites that claim that Jesus was the SUN as there are saying that the Jesus bloodline spread to France, or that he was buried in Tibet, or that
he never died on the cross in the first place, that Jesus was such a common name yet there apparently isn't hardly any references to a historical
Jesus.

Books written now about Jesus draw so much from other sources backing up the authors agenda that it is easy to 'prove' virtually any standpoint
desired.

I have loads of books on Jesus conspiracies and the only thing that they prove is that no matter how compelling the individual theories are - they all
contradict themselves.

Quote "(That means families and communities gather, which in some cases can be a scared endevor onto itself) But the activities some engage in are
primarily gluttony and greed. Pagan endevors which are alive to this very day. " End Quote

If I had hackles that could rise, they would have stood on end when I read this part your post Jehosephat.

Perhaps it would do you well to research what you think is pagan endeavors before you post them as beliefs. I am Pagan and I can assure you that
gluttony and greed play no part in the path that I follow, nor do I condone it.

Yule is a winter festival celebrated in Northern Europe since ancient times. In pre-Christian times, Germanic pagans celebrated Yule from late
December to early January on a date determined by a lunar calendar.[1] During the process of Christianization and the adoption of the Julian calendar,
Yule was placed on December 25, in order to correspond with the Christian celebrations later known in English as Christmas.[2] Thus, the terms
"Yule" and "Christmas" are often used interchangeably[3], especially in Christmas carols. This Sabbat represents the rebirth of light. Here, on
the longest night of the year, the Goddess gives birth to the Sun God and hope for new light is reborn.
Yule is a time of awakening to new goals and leaving old regrets behind. Yule coincides closely with the Christian Christmas celebration. Christmas
was once a movable feast celebrated many different times during the year. The choice of December 25 was made by the Pope Julius I in the fourth
century AD because this coincided with the pagan rituals of Winter Solstice, or Return of the Sun. The intent was to replace the pagan celebration
with the Christian one.
The Christian tradition of a Christmas tree has its origins in the Pagan Yule celebration. Pagan families would bring a live tree into the home so
the wood spirits would have a place to keep warm during the cold winter months. Bells were hung in the limbs so you could tell when a spirit was
present.
Food and treats were hung on the branches for the spirits to eat and a five-pointed star, the pentagram, symbol of the five elements, was placed
atop the tree.
The colors of the season, red and green, also are of Pagan origin, as is the custom of exchanging gifts.
A solar festival, The reindeer stag is also a reminder of the Horned God. You will find that many traditional Christmas decorations have some type
of Pagan ancestry or significance that can be added to your Yule holiday. Yule is celebrated by fire and the use of a Yule log. Many enjoy the
practice of lighting the Yule Log. If you choose to burn one, select a proper log of oak or pine (never Elder). Carve or chalk upon it a figure of the
Sun (a rayed disc) or the Horned God (a horned circle). Set it alight in the fireplace at dusk, on Yule. This is a graphic representation of the
rebirth of the God within the sacred fire of the Mother Goddess. As the log burns, visualize the Sun shining within it and think of the coming warmer
days. Traditionally, a portion of the Yule Log is saved to be used in lighting next year's log. This piece is kept throughout the year to protect the
home.

Easter gets its name from the Teutonic goddess of spring and the dawn, whose name is spelled Oestre or Eastre (the origin of the word "east" comes
from various Germanic, Austro-Hungarian words for dawn that share the root for the word "aurora" which means " to shine"). Modern pagans have
generally accepted the spelling "Ostara" which honors this goddess as our word for the Vernal Equinox.

The 1974 edition of Webster's New World Dictionary defines Easter thus: "orig., name of pagan vernal festival almost coincident in date with
paschal festival of the church; Eastre, dawn goddess; 1. An annual Christian festival celebrating the resurrection of Jesus, held on the first Sunday
after the date of the first full moon that occurs on or after March 21." The Vernal Equinox usually falls somewhere between March 19th and 22nd (note
that the dictionary only mentions March 21st, as opposed to the date of the actual Equinox), and depending upon when the first full moon on or after
the Equinox occurs, Easter falls sometime between late-March and mid-April.

Because the Equinox and Easter are so close, many Catholics and others who celebrate Easter often see this holiday (which observes Christ's
resurrection from the dead after his death on Good Friday) as being synonymous with rebirth and rejuvenation: the symbolic resurrection of Christ is
echoed in the awakening of the plant and animal life around us. But if we look more closely at some of these Easter customs, we will see that the
origins are surprisingly, well, pagan! Eggs, bunnies, candy, Easter baskets, new clothes, all these "traditions" have their origin in practices
which may have little or nothing to do with the Christian holiday.

For example, the traditional coloring and giving of eggs at Easter has very pagan associations. For eggs are clearly one of the most potent symbols
of fertility, and spring is the season when animals begin to mate and flowers and trees pollinate and reproduce. In England and Northern Europe, eggs
were often employed in folk magic when women wanted to be blessed with children. Another favorite part of Easter for kids, no doubt, is that basket of
treats! Nestled in plastic "grass" colored pink or green, we'd find foil-wrapped candy eggs, hollow chocolate bunnies, jelly beans, marshmallow
chicks (in pink, yellow or lavender!), fancy peanut butter or coconut eggs from Russell Stover. Like that other holiday where children are inundated
with sugar (Hallowe'en), no one seems to know precisely where, when or how this custom began. And why are the baskets supposedly brought by a
bunny???

Clearly the association of rabbits with Easter has something to do with fertility magic. Anyone who has kept rabbits as pets or knows anything
about their biology has no question about the origin of the phrase "f*** like a bunny." These cute furry creatures reproduce rapidly, and often!
Same with chicks, who emerge wobbly and slimy from their eggs only to become fluffy, yellow and cute within a few hours. The Easter Bunny may well
have its origin in the honoring of rabbits in spring as an animal sacred to the goddess Eastre, much as horses are sacred to the Celtic Epona, and the
crow is sacred to the Morrigan. As a goddess of spring, she presides over the realm of the conception and birth of babies, both animal and human, and
of the pollination, flowering and ripening of fruits in the plant kingdom. Sexual activity is the root of all of life: to honor this activity is to
honor our most direct connection to nature.

I could go on here, but the simple fact is, if you know nothing about a topic, you should not post on it till you do know something on it. The fact
is, yes, Christianity took a lot from the pagan myths in order to make conversion easier for those they (the Romans) conquered.

You are absolutely correct that fertility has meaning. Venus the planet is also compared to be known as related to Love and Fertility and for good
reason. Venus contains the Sword Flaming which is The Spirit of God and Love and Truth. You say Jesus has been copied by many before him. Well it is
true, and the reason is it is all the same Divine deity. She is associated with Venus and many many other names in the past including Lucifer. She
is the gateway to eternal life in the material world, her husband who is of the same essence forges vessels out of Metal using the sun and breaths new
life into the vessels.

God was also once known as Vulcan and Ra and associated with the sun in mythology. Venus, Jesus, Aphrodite, and countless other names are associated
with the planet Venus which is The Spirit of God and HER Angels reside there.

Horus is mentioned in The Book of The Dead as being related to Venus and having authority to offer eternal life. You may also be familiar with "The
Eye of Horus" which is modern days "All Seeing Eye." The UFO depicted in artwork such as in Da Vinci's symbolizes Ra, Nut, Vulcan, God of the
material world's creation which is granted through The Spirit which resides in Love and Truth and dwells on Venus.

It is interesting, on one hand there are definite similarities between the Christian and some Pagan religions. Easter and Christmas are both close to
the vernal equinox and winter solstice. Elohim, an Old Testament name for God, is actually the plural form of eloah. One could argue that it means the
Trinity, but the Trinity itself is strange as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are called one God. The word said at the end of Christian prayers,
Amen, is also the name of an important ancient Egyptian god. The differences obviously monotheistic v. polytheistic, also the almost deliberate switch
between matriarchal and patriarchal systems. I think pagan religions came first.

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