have you noticed the chem trails in the sky more and more now?? i see them constantly spraying..and i know my asthma's been kicked into overdrive, not sure if it's the spray, or the season, or extra fires people are making..i see change, and it's not great. !

Sarcasm can be a tricky thing to judge on the internet, so void, I gotta ask: do you really believe that jet contrails are caused by governments spraying chemicals on their citizens?

hmm...do i believe our government is geoengineering our weather to combat global warming, yes, i would not put it past our government to do shady things against it's own people so we wont or can't stand in their way. i see the spray, and understand quite well the difference between contrails and chemtrails, how they should but don't disapear for hours. our skys are criss crossed every single day...why? what's coming out of those planes that hangs in our atmosphere for HOURS, it's not just water vapor, i can tell you that. i don't know what it is. i do know it shouldn't be there though. and i wouldn't put it past our government for a second to do something like this, then slowly admit what it is exactly they're doing. they gotta look like they're trying to fix the problem, even if what they're doing isn't fixing it, but possibly making other conditions worse by doing it. and if you think that they'd be up front about spraying stuff into the air that people, animals,water and soil *our food* takes in, then you're living in an awesome altered state of reality. our government is as shady as they come.

While I would not argue that the US government always has the best interests of its citizens in mind, I find conspiracy theories largely untenable. And the more people involved, the more vulnerable a given "conspiracy" gets. To be spraying chemical compounds from commercial and / or military jets on a regular basis would require at least tens of thousands of people in the US alone.

The chemtrail conspiracy theory holds that some trails left by aircraft are chemical or biological agents deliberately sprayed at high altitudes for purposes undisclosed to the general public in clandestine programs directed by various government officials.[1] This theory is not accepted by the scientific community, which states that they are just normal contrails, as there is no scientific evidence supporting the chemtrail theory.

Due to the popularity of the conspiracy theory, official agencies have received thousands of complaints from people who have demanded an explanation.[1][2] The existence of chemtrails has been repeatedly denied by scientists around the world, who say the trails are normal contrails.[3] The United States Air Force states that the theory is a hoax which "has been investigated and refuted by many established and accredited universities, scientific organizations, and major media publications."[4] The United Kingdom's Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has stated that chemtrails are not scientifically recognized phenomena.[5]

The term chemtrail is a portmanteau of the words "chemical" and "trail," just as contrail is a contraction of "condensation trail." The term does not refer to other forms of aerial spraying such as agricultural spraying ('crop dusting'), cloud seeding, skywriting, or aerial firefighting.[6] The term specifically refers to aerial trails allegedly caused by the systematic high-altitude release of chemical substances not found in ordinary contrails, resulting in the appearance of characteristic sky tracks. Supporters of this conspiracy theory speculate that the purpose of the chemical release may be for solar radiation management, population control,[1] weather control,[2] or biological warfare/chemical warfare and that these trails are causing respiratory illnesses and other health problems.[7][8]

I chat with some conspiracy theorists once in a while. A famous one in Finland, Arto, came up with a Unufying Conspiracy Theory. I did not understand all of it. But contrails were used to cover up neutrons escsping nuclear reactors.

I asked for who were behind it. The answer was "them". Implying all state and nuclear agencies.

I chat with some conspiracy theorists once in a while. A famous one in Finland, Arto, came up with a Unufying Conspiracy Theory. I did not understand all of it. But contrails were used to cover up neutrons escsping nuclear reactors.

So do the nations that have no nuclear reactors also have no aircraft releasing contrails?

While I would not argue that the US government always has the best interests of its citizens in mind, I find conspiracy theories largely untenable. And the more people involved, the more vulnerable a given "conspiracy" gets. To be spraying chemical compounds from commercial and / or military jets on a regular basis would require at least tens of thousands of people in the US alone.

Tens of thousands of people who are presumably content to be exposed to these 'chemtrails' themselves along with their families , pets and potted plants. Unless they're all living in sealed, underground bunkers!

No, wait - they obviously know that they're spraying something but are being kept in the dark about precisely what by "them". Not one of these people, apparently clever enough to be employed servicing aircraft, ever turns to his buddy and says, 'Gee Burt, I wonder what it is we're sprayin' on ourselves?"

Chemtrails are nothing but tinfoil-hattery of the first order.

Top tip for evaluating whether or not a 'conspiracy' is a possible explanation for anything - ask yourself would it require the knowing participation of more than a dozen people for the conspiracy to proceed if not succeed undetected? If the answer is 'yes' then it isn't a conspiracy. If the answer is 'no' then it might be a conspiracy but that is not the same as saying it is a conspiracy.

Conspiracy theories always amaze me. They all tend to rely on the assumption that there are Government Departments with large staffs, every single one of whom are the pinnacle of efficiency, discretion, and evilness.

Now while I admit that the third may apply , has anyone worked for ANY organisation, EVER, where EVERY employee is ruthlessly efficient, driven and determined, AND scrupulously loyal to the organisation? What are the odds that only EVIL organisations are the ones that attract all the best people?

Consider also that "evil" people are generally those who are out for their own interests over that of the community as a whole. Which seems to make it far LESS likely they will work for an organisation that places highest value on following the dictates of the hidden and nefarious few at the top.

And how do you get IN to one of these organisations, anyway? Do you start at the DVLA, and (once demonstrating your disregard for humanity) get recruited into the conspiracy? Or do they recruit directly from the demonstrably evil and anti-social, who are of course the most stable and reliable of workers?

Not saying that big government don't do bad stuff. But living in a country where Government workers regularly leave confidential folders on the train, I find it VERY hard to believe that nobody has ever come across the file full of memos about the "chemtrail project" or whatever.

Conspiracy theories always amaze me. They all tend to rely on the assumption that there are Government Departments with large staffs, every single one of whom are the pinnacle of efficiency, discretion, and evilness.

Indeed, in the real world Ernst Blofeld or whatever evil mastermind wouldn't have time to actually commit evil.

"Mr Bond, I've been expecting you but would you mind hanging on for a few minutes while I phone that useless pillock I stupidly employed to install a retracting, waterproof roof in my volcano which neither retracts nor is waterproof!"

Due to the popularity of the conspiracy theory, official agencies have received thousands of complaints from people who have demanded an explanation.

The problem with this demand is that no explanation other than one that supports the conspiracy theory is ever accepted by these people. Just like the so-called 911 "truth" movement simply refuses to believe the actual truth about 911. Its such a misnomer. They should call themselves the 911 "not satisfied with the truth" movement.

Consider also that "evil" people are generally those who are out for their own interests over that of the community as a whole. Which seems to make it far LESS likely they will work for an organisation that places highest value on following the dictates of the hidden and nefarious few at the top.

And how do you get IN to one of these organisations, anyway? Do you start at the DVLA, and (once demonstrating your disregard for humanity) get recruited into the conspiracy? Or do they recruit directly from the demonstrably evil and anti-social, who are of course the most stable and reliable of workers?

Add to this that most people who are viewed as evil by society at large don't actually see themselves as such.

Even as a kid I thought Stan Lee dropped the ball by having the X-men villians call themselves the "Brotherhood of Evil Mutants". Nobody is going to join an organization that immediately calls itself evil! Essentially, Magneto is Malcolm X[1] to Xavier's MLK, but he's only "evil" to those in power that just want him to stop fighting back.

Aircraft would be an incredibly inefficient way to deliver chemicals. The most direct routes between cities don't always cross large population areas and some parts of the country have very few aircraft flying over. I seldom see any over the valley I live in, for instance. Most are routed either to the west (over a large wilderness area) or to the east (over a large sparsely populated region). And folks are so spread out in my valley that doses would be ridiculously small.

If they would just put the chemicals in beer and sodas, everyone would be their daily minimum requirement of nefarious elements...

The whole thing was presumably started by people who would see airplanes flying over, sometimes with contrails, sometimes with none, and the more paranoid amongst them, the more paranoid with no idea what the heck caused contrails, would assume they were turned on and off for a reason, rather than the fact that the moisture and temperature had to be right for contrails to form. And hence, we get yet another free conspiracy out of the deal.

A study on people who believe in various conspiracy theories shows that most of them wish that they themselves were part of a conspiracy because they'd love the intrigue. So can you imagine the emotions of someone prone to conspiracy theories who was actually made part of one. They would be so excited to know one was real, but they couldn't tell anyone. That would have to hurt.

Conspiracies on the scale of most conspiracies (huge governmental or powerful nefarious group level) would require way too many people to keep them quiet. But I assume those who do sneak around on the planet doing evil things love such conspiracies, because they draw attention away from actual plots and issues. The least the Illuminati could do is send out thank you notes

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I chat with some conspiracy theorists once in a while. A famous one in Finland, Arto, came up with a Unufying Conspiracy Theory. I did not understand all of it. But contrails were used to cover up neutrons escsping nuclear reactors.

So do the nations that have no nuclear reactors also have no aircraft releasing contrails?

If it's a Nato country they still have to, so the conspiracy is not revealed!

But I assume those who do sneak around on the planet doing evil things love such conspiracies, because they draw attention away from actual plots and issues. The least the Illuminati could do is send out thank you notes

So true. Any real conspiracies out there must adore the internet; it offers an unprecedented means to distract and disseminate counterintelligence.

If I'm understanding void correctly, her claim is that contrails are part of a government plan to help mitigate global warming. This isn't being declared openly because (she believes) that some unknown compounds are added to jet exhaust to enable them to persist and those chemicals do / could have a detrimental effect.

Rather, I don't buy it because of the scale on which this conspiracy, in particular, would have to operate. People would have to produce, ship, and transship the chemical additives. There would have to be specialists to install and maintain the spraying / injecting mechanisms on every plane used in the program. Hell, the major airlines would have to be involved. So would the Office of Homeland Security and the friggin' TSA. That no one in those groups would break ranks and offer evidence of all this seems vanishingly unlikely.

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it's not just water vapor, i can tell you that. i don't know what it is. i do know it shouldn't be there though. and i wouldn't put it past our government for a second to do something like this, then slowly admit what it is exactly they're doing. they gotta look like they're trying to fix the problem, even if what they're doing isn't fixing it, but possibly making other conditions worse by doing it. and if you think that they'd be up front about spraying stuff into the air that people, animals,water and soil *our food* takes in, then you're living in an awesome altered state of reality. our government is as shady as they come.

and I would like to know how you know this is true. It is a very important question. It is a question that got me out of theism and should help you (and others) get out of crackpot ideas. How Do You Know?

The great thing about conspiracy theories is the lack of evidence is evidence. Speaking of contrails, we get a lot of them where I live (midwest USA). The other day, from my particular vantage point, four contrails all crossed each other in the center forming a giant asterisk in the sky. Very cool -- and no doubt, very evil .

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The great thing about conspiracy theories is the lack of evidence is evidence. Speaking of contrails, we get a lot of them where I live (midwest USA). The other day, from my particular vantage point, four contrails all crossed each other in the center forming a giant asterisk in the sky. Very cool -- and no doubt, very evil .

That's impossible. Since when has the US airline industry been able to get four planes in the air at the same time. Something fishy is going on.

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hey kids, sorry for the delay, it's been a crazy couple days around here, and this is my 3rd attempt to respond, but my computer keeps freezing up...had a whole long response and had to shut it down because it wouldn't post..grrr

anywho, i'm trying again...so here is what i know to be true..i know that i live in an area with a lot of aircraft, both military and commercial, however our nearest major airport, and military base is 3 hours away. i live on the water, on the american/canadian border. i see planes leaving trails that do not go away like most typical planes do, every day. some are higher up than others in the sky. i know that these are very large planes leaving these trails of whatever you want to call them, aside from simple condensation, which obviously disapates rapidly. i'm not saying i know what they're spraying, but it's something that hangs in our atmosphere for hours. i see them criss cross our sky all the time. these are simple observations i and others locally have made. i'm not saying who's behind it, i said i wouldn't be surprised if our own government was behind it. i don't have all the answers. and i never claimed to. i don't know what it is, i just know it can't be good. no one can seem to say what exactly it is that stays in the air and doesn't act like a normal condensation trail. so what is it? why is it leaving streaks across the sky that don't go away. when is it EVER a good thing when something is being released into the atmosphere? i understand that the conditions must be a certain way to make condensation happen, how cold it is, how high up they are, but not all of these planes i and others see are super high up, yet they still leave the lines. so what is it? i don't think 10 thousand people would be able to keep a secret either. having said that, i know that there are people who do things for their job that they aren't always given full disclosure on what it is they're doing. need to know basis is a real thing. people being killed because they know too much or said something, happens. i could tell you how i know this, but then i'd have to kill ya i know that our government is shade as f...and i wouldn't put it past them to do something of this nature. they don't tell people what they're doing if they don't have to. the majority of the public has no clue what our government is up to until it's past the point of no return. but like i said, i don't have all the answers, i just know that putting things in our air has never been a good thing. my asthma is a very real and sever issue for me, and it seems to be kicked into overdrive at times with heavy streaking in the sky, yes, i'm paying attention to that as i have to figure out what my triggers are, and the air quality has sucked, i can feel it in my lungs. i know there are many factors to good and bad air quality. water vapor goes away in a reasonable amount of time...these trails don't just go away. so what is it then? are they spraying vitamins into the air? not likely. it appears to me they are attempting to make more "clouds" for one reason or another, and i do think that they're trying to make weather go the way they want it to. but i don't have all the answers so i don't state it as a fact as this is for sure what's going on. i don't have that clearence darnit lol i wish i knew for sure what it was, any ideas fellas? i know that people have taken samples of the soil and water and found insane amounts of metals in them on heavy trail days, and certain people are paying attention to that. why would there be a rise in aluminum in our water and soils all of a sudden? that doesn't make sense to me. i'm not a scientist and i have a brain injury, so take that into consideration when you respond and chew me up on all this. i've stated it several times that i don't have all the answers, but wish i did. so since you don't think it's chemtrails, what is it??? anyone?? i'm going to post this before my computer freezes..again..stupid technology.

i know that these are very large planes leaving these trails of whatever you want to call them, aside from simple condensation, which obviously disapates rapidly.

Water vapor condensation does not always dissipate rapidly. Its dissipation rate is largely dependent on how humid the atmosphere is. In very dry air, the condensation does dissipate very quickly, but if the humidity level is very high, water vapor trails can and do remain for some time because the atmosphere, being already near the saturation point, cannot allow the trails to dissipate.

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Yesterday at this time, it was 65 degrees. Presently, there is a blizzard. It has to be the result of some conspiracy involving "chemtrails", right? I mean there is an airport like 3 miles from my house, and there was plenty of air traffic yesterday. Oh and there has been a lot of military craft moving through the area as well. It MUST be a conspiracy!

I loved contrails when I was a kid in the 50's. I lived in an area where there were a lot of them. My favorite was the B-36 bomber with its reverse propellors that would fly over all the time because of the cold war. They flew high, but they had a distinctive silhouette and I had great eyes so I could see them pretty clearly. Where I lived in Oregon the humidity is low in the summer and high in the winter, and I noticed that the contrails always stayed around longer in the winter. But when I lived in Indiana I noticed that the contrails seemed to last longer even summer. Its a weather thing.

There is plenty polluting our air, of course including airplanes. But if the bad guys wanted to poison us via exhaust, all they would have to do is toss strange chemicals in the exhaust stacks of cargo ships. The fifteen largest cargo ships in the world produce more air pollution than all the cars in the world combined. What a great way to poison us. And you could do it in larger doses!

the only problem i have with this info, and my observations, is where i live, the wind RARELY stops, i have no buffer from the wind from the west, east, and north of me, to the south is a mountain called Hurricane Ridge...aptly named by the way..as the wind never frikin stops, and yet the trails still last for hours. so that doesn't make sense according to your link, for my area at least, and the planes aren't up at rediculous high altitudes. i do know several trusted, military pilots who agree that doesn't seem normal to them, though they have also described contrails as a normal thing. so i don't know what it is, but i don't believe it's just water vapor & exhaust, or it should go away more quickly than it is. our normal clouds blow thru faster than the trails disapear. i'm not saying it's a conspiracy per se, i'm saying it doesn't appear to be normal plane contrails that some planes are leaving behind. i've seen it throughout the year, in all types of weather aside from nasty, pissing down rain or snow. i suppose global warming isn't a real thing either huh? another gov cover up..lol ask the polar bears how they feel about it, or look at our ice caps and glaciers that are losing ice by the day. i dunno people...what appears to be happening is the world is going to shit in a handbasket...should be fun to watch! i'll make the popcorn

There is plenty polluting our air, of course including airplanes. But if the bad guys wanted to poison us via exhaust, all they would have to do is toss strange chemicals in the exhaust stacks of cargo ships. The fifteen largest cargo ships in the world produce more air pollution than all the cars in the world combined. What a great way to poison us. And you could do it in larger doses!

yeah they need to leave my lungs the F alone...i live in an area that has been known for it's excellent air quality, and if i'm having problems here...well i'm just screwed cause there's no where else that has it better, that's obtainable for me. and hush about the cargo ships who pass right thru in front of my town by the way, as we're a port town...it'll give the gov a good idea how to control the population a little easier gotta keep that on the down low! lol

i know that these are very large planes leaving these trails of whatever you want to call them, aside from simple condensation, which obviously disapates rapidly.

Water vapor condensation does not always dissipate rapidly. Its dissipation rate is largely dependent on how humid the atmosphere is. In very dry air, the condensation does dissipate very quickly, but if the humidity level is very high, water vapor trails can and do remain for some time because the atmosphere, being already near the saturation point, cannot allow the trails to dissipate.

but when i'm watching the sky, as i often do, and see more than one plane flying, aprox the same height from the ground, and they're both leaving trails, one shuts down, one stays on, one vanishes in minutes, one takes several hours...you have to admit it seems odd that one plane would do it, yet not another flying in the same basic conditions..you can trace these lines for many, many, many miles in the sky...but others only leave a trail 40 yards behind the plane and then vanish. seems odd.

but when i'm watching the sky, as i often do, and see more than one plane flying, aprox the same height from the ground, and they're both leaving trails, one shuts down, one stays on, one vanishes in minutes, one takes several hours...you have to admit it seems odd that one plane would do it, yet not another flying in the same basic conditions..you can trace these lines for many, many, many miles in the sky...but others only leave a trail 40 yards behind the plane and then vanish. seems odd.

Keep two things in mind. Ask any pilot. Winds aloft are very different from winds on the ground. You can't judge things by what you are experiencing where you stand. Heck,if you had wind sensors on your feet you'd find out the air down there moves differently than at your face level. When a pilot takes off, the winds aloft can differ from the ground level within just a few hundred feet in some areas. Get up to thousands of feet and all bets are off.

Secondly, there is no way to stand on the ground and accurately state that two planes just flew by at similar altitudes and had different contrails. You have no idea how many thousand of feet higher one was than the other. When aircraft are flying anywhere from 24,000 feet to 38,000 feet and beyond, you cannot possibly detect the difference with your eyes. And again, ask any pilot and they will tell you that the winds can change rapidly, and even blow in completely different directions, with very little shift an altitude.

It provides a weather map showing wind speed and direction at various altitudes. The pull down menu towards the top that says "SFC" (which is for "surface") gives you access to wind speds and direction in 3000 foot increments at lower elevations and 6,000 foot increments higher up. "FL180" means 18,000 feet, "FL240" means 24,000 feet, etc. Climb through the altitudes and watch the wind changes. And keep in mind that this is a large area map with very general data. In any given locale, the variations may be more extreme than what the averages seem to indicate, and remember this is a dynamic map, that changes as the wind shifts.

Assumptions about wind based on what you've experienced standing on the ground are useless in this case.

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piano, i agree, many things do seem odd until you undertand how they work. i don't think condensation is a difficult concept to grasp. i understand how and why it happens. what i don't understand is how i saw those two planes flying in the same field of vision, both at the same time, and they had totally different trails following. i understand that different types of planes may leave different looking trails depending on conditions. but this is something i see on a regular basis, and they do not appear to be letting off the same stuff behind them. i can only speak from what i've observed for myself, in my area of the country. i don't believe everything i read on the internet, and i don't know who ever wrote that link you posted from anyone. he could be the crackpot, i don't know. i wouldn't just take his word on it, i don't believe he even used his real name anywhere in the post. anyone can write up anything on line, good or bad, about whatever they'd like to get off their chest. doesn't make that fact, or real unless someone else is willing to back it up. maybe he or she knows what they're talking about. i don't know that for fact though. and really, neither do you.

In addition to moisture content in the air, aircraft contrails/vapor trails near the ground (approach and take off phases of flight) can also depend on the approach and landing attitude, speed, and wing configuration of the aircraft. As a former military pilot with many thousands of hours in multi-engine "large" aircraft, I've been on approach to an airfield in my aircraft making contrails, while looking over a another jet next to me (landing on a parallel runway to the same airfield) not making contrails. Pilots configure their aircraft for optimum efficiency for takeoffs and landings, with a variety of flap and slat settings and pitch attitude options; local airfield noise abatement rules also dictate landing patterns that may require deviation from optimum approach and takeoff configurations which may or may not effect vapor condensing effects of an aircraft. Seldom are two aircraft configured exactly the same way for approaches and take offs, and one may generate contrails/vapor trails, and another may not.

I'm quite confident your concerns about the effects of aircraft contrails on your health are unfounded. I recommend spending your energy looking for another source for your asthma.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 01:29:04 PM by Backspace »

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There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.-- Bernie Katz

Do keep in mind that in order for such a dastardly undertaking to work, it would require that all atmospheric scientists and pollution technicians and air quality researchers be in on it. They are constantly measuring everything in the air down to parts per trillion, and anything that showed up that was both not natural and not explainable would perplex the crap out of people. That's a lot of cohorts to keep around.

In other words, these particles, if they actually exist, would be both detectable and impossible to keep from the public eye because too many folks are watching atmospheric contents and quality to be able to hide the icky stuff from the public. There is no way that tens of thousands of people around the world are going to be in on the conspiracy. And there is no way to make even nano particles undetectable.

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You are putting the cart before the horse. I've not seen you establish that anyone is actually spraying anything yet. You've jumped from "some contrails last longer than others" directly to "someone is spraying something". That is a huuuuuge leap. You need to make the connection. Walk us through it.

no one can seem to say what exactly it is that stays in the air and doesn't act like a normal condensation trail.

to the contrary, everything I have seen about contrails says there is variability in how long they last depending on weather, temperature, altitude, and type of engine involved. It could even be affected by the fuel mixture <-- little bit of my own conjecture there.

what i don't understand is how i saw those two planes flying in the same field of vision, both at the same time, and they had totally different trails following. i understand that different types of planes may leave different looking trails depending on conditions. but this is something i see on a regular basis, and they do not appear to be letting off the same stuff behind them.

ParkingPlaces already addressed this. The atmosphere changes wildly with pretty small changes in altitude, and you cannot judge two planes being at the same or similar altitudes just by looking at them.

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i can only speak from what i've observed for myself, in my area of the country. i don't believe everything i read on the internet

That's very wise of you... I'm actually glad to hear you say that.

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and i don't know who ever wrote that link you posted from anyone. he could be the crackpot, i don't know. i wouldn't just take his word on it, i don't believe he even used his real name anywhere in the post. anyone can write up anything on line, good or bad, about whatever they'd like to get off their chest. doesn't make that fact, or real unless someone else is willing to back it up. maybe he or she knows what they're talking about. i don't know that for fact though. and really, neither do you.

As an aside, I live in the west of Scotland and basically everything that enters or leaves European airspace from North America passes through the area because of trans-oceanic traffic control at Prestwick. I sit with PF installed on my phone, looking up at the sky and identifying aircraft on clear days. In addition, my wife has asthma and there is no correlation between her bad days and the number of contrails in the sky. This proves nothing of course but it does illustrate that your anecdotal evidence is balanced by mine to the point that both can be disregarded.

I know governments are in general incompetent and spendthrift but if "They" were intending to secretly medicate the population for nefarious reasons I'd expect that they'd opt for the cheaper, more effective and less obvious method of just dumping the medication into drinking water supplies.

Like so many conspiracy theories, the chemtrail one entirely rests at least partially on the idea that the conspirators will always opt for the most complex and least efficient methods. Bond villains never opt for simply shooting him, they always tell him their entire plan and then wander off leaving him to some slowly evolving fate that offers escape options. In real life that doesn't happen. Consider the "FEMA coffins" conspiracy. If the government was planning genocide, what are the chances that they'd carefully place every victim in a specially-made plastic casket for careful burial? None whatsoever. We have real-world data on the difficulty of disposing of millions of corpses - neat little caskets don't feature.

Just apply Occam's razor to these crackpot ideas and look carefully at the 'evidence' presented. If the 'scientific evidence' isn't cited with details of the authors and the peer-reviewed journal(s) it appeared in then the chances are it isn't true.