Ah damnit. Another podium at Suzuka would've been nice, can't believe McLaren made him lose that, he was doing pretty well the whole weekend. Couldn't believe my eyes when he pitted so early either, really expected him to go long. He has always gone long at Suzuka. Of course there was gonna be traffic for him now and that ruined his race...

But most of all he enjoys Japan a lot so it's too bad not much went to plan this weekend with the gearboxes and the strategy. I really hope he can win another race this year, but I would've preferred it to be here. Like Jenson I hope Red Bulls pace was a one-off, afraid not though.

A little surprised they didn't go for softs the last stint, what was the point staying out when Koba was going faster otherwise?

I remember they asked Jenson if he preferred the primes or options and he replied with primes. Staying out was just to try 'something'. In the end he was never close enough on important moments to make leapfrogging possible. Quite disappointing actually.

I remember they asked Jenson if he preferred the primes or options and he replied with primes. Staying out was just to try 'something'. In the end he was never close enough on important moments to make leapfrogging possible. Quite disappointing actually.

Still, uncharacteristic audacity/luck at the start, could have been much worse

Still, uncharacteristic audacity/luck at the start, could have been much worse

8th to 3rd at the start was certainly a nice surprise, more luck than audacity though. The thing was that at that point I hoped he could get by Kobayashi quite quickly and go after Vettel but instead he got off the podium - not something we see him do often.

A little surprised they didn't go for softs the last stint, what was the point staying out when Koba was going faster otherwise?

I think that to make options work, they would have had to stay out longer and make a very short final stint.

The race was messed up long before that. I can't believe they did the same thing to Jenson again as they did in Hungary! There was absolutely no reason to pit him when they did, he was not slowing down, he was faster than Ricciardo, so he just needed to stay out a few more laps, and he wouldn't have become stuck behind Ricciardo, and of course that wouldn't have allowed Massa to jump him.

Were they worried because Jenson was dropping back slightly from Kamui, and coming under pressure from Massa? Another case of the strategy boys panicking and making things much worse.

McLaren are not going to win any titles unless they get their strategy team sorted out.

I think that to make options work, they would have had to stay out longer and make a very short final stint.

The race was messed up long before that. I can't believe they did the same thing to Jenson again as they did in Hungary! There was absolutely no reason to pit him when they did, he was not slowing down, he was faster than Ricciardo, so he just needed to stay out a few more laps, and he wouldn't have become stuck behind Ricciardo, and of course that wouldn't have allowed Massa to jump him.

Well this time the problem was that Massa was really faster than him at that stage. Massa was within about a second all the time and that only happens if you are allot faster. So. Had he stayed out longer it would have given Massa the possibility of undercut and Kamui the possibility of undercut. The only way he could have stayed ahead of Massa was either pitting into clean air 1 lap before Massa or pitting exactly the same time as Massa. It was a tough beat this time, that's all.

Well, I think it was the only time I didn't want JB to get that podium. As Brandle said "As mucn as I love JB I want Kamui to get a podium". So seeing Koba in front of his countrymates signing his name - that was something.

Anyway, really awesome start for JB but that Sauber looked so strong. It was a shame they both lost to Massa, but it seems like Mclaren was not that fast over the distance. One lap - yes, but the race pace... Still good that JB is on it.

Well, I think it was the only time I didn't want JB to get that podium. As Brandle said "As mucn as I love JB I want Kamui to get a podium". So seeing Koba in front of his countrymates signing his name - that was something.

Anyway, really awesome start for JB but that Sauber looked so strong. It was a shame they both lost to Massa, but it seems like Mclaren was not that fast over the distance. One lap - yes, but the race pace... Still good that JB is on it.

Well this time the problem was that Massa was really faster than him at that stage. Massa was within about a second all the time and that only happens if you are allot faster. So. Had he stayed out longer it would have given Massa the possibility of undercut and Kamui the possibility of undercut. The only way he could have stayed ahead of Massa was either pitting into clean air 1 lap before Massa or pitting exactly the same time as Massa. It was a tough beat this time, that's all.

Massa being faster wasn't relevant in that situation, he wasn't going to pass Jenson on track, and Ricciardo was preventing the undercut.

If either Massa or Kamui had tried for the undercut, they would have got stuck behind Ricciardo, on a track where it's difficult to overtake.

So Jenson could easily have come out in front of both of them, if McLaren didn't panic.

Is that hindsight though? Not that I was accurately following the gaps myself, but Ricciardo could've pitted any lap.

No, it's not hindsight. McLaren should have been waiting for Ricciardo to pit, and then pitted Jenson immediately. That way he gets any undercut which is possible, and no-one can undercut him.

Other top teams seem to do this, I don't know what's wrong with McLaren. Of course Sauber also lost out due to covering Jenson's stop the next lap, but they are not really a top team, and I don't think even they would have made that mistake except in response to McLaren.

The only complication would have been if Ricciardo had not pitted, but instead had slowed down, so that he was no longer within a pitstop of Jenson. That would have required a difficult judgement call - how much margin should you allow for a possible bad pitstop? Eg if a pitstop normally takes 20 seconds, do you pit when he's 20 seconds behind and hope for a lightning stop, or wait until he's 22 or 23 seconds behind? That's when the pressure is really on, and you could talk about hindsight.

I know that it's not motorsport related, but I wanted to throw this quote about Lance Armstrong's cheating from Jenson out there. Admittedly it is from a not very good newspaper, and may be old or quoted out of context.

Important they are clamping down on that sort of thing. This is a negative thing for Lance but his books are great and you can still take a lot from themJenson Button, F1 driver

I know that it's not motorsport related, but I wanted to throw this quote about Lance Armstrong's cheating from Jenson out there. Admittedly it is from a not very good newspaper, and may be old or quoted out of context.

The next one was actually supposed to go into the Jenson Button 2013 smackdown thread, but Buttoneer torched the thread while I was composing it I figured it works here almost aswell. It is in general reply to the idea that McLaren is doomed, Button's average qualy position will be 8th and, well, the rest that everybody already knows. So here it is:

This is an attempt of a serious reply here for the thread. Well, sort of.

What most of the people here (especially the "Button is crap and will be lucky to ever again qualify in top ten" camp) tend to ignore is psychology. Granted, it's hard to measure and quantify, but it is definitely one of the biggest contributors in any sporting endeavour. Physical abilities, training, all else being the same, the ones with the strongest psyche and the best state of mind tend to win. Now that is nothing new of course. But let's try to apply it to the real world scenario. Usually in every team there is one driver that does a significantly better job over the year than his teammate. Last year the wins were like 15 to one between Vettel and Webber. Now, Webber definitely is not a 15 times worse driver. Neither is he a particulary bad qualifier, he was considered a bit of a specialist backi in the mid noughties. Suddenly he seems wholly average compared to Vettel. Why's that? Special treatment? Maybe, but he also does not feel like the man in the team. He is not the one that is supposed to perform. Vettel is the man. We can go back for several years and similar scenarios tend to occur. At the start of the season "equal treatment" teammates are about equal, similar in qualy, similar in the races. Then one gets clearish edge and suddenly weird shit starts to happen to the other guy. He is half a sec a lap slower in qualy, his races go all wrong. In the seasons where one car is dominant the weirdest thing that usually happens is, that "the man" wins almost all the races. 1997 - Villeneuve-Frentzen 7-1; 1998 Häkkinen Coulthard 8-1; 1999 Häkkinen-Coulthard 5-2; 2000 Schumacher-Barrichello 9-1 (I won't list the rest of the Michael seasons as, well, there is a whole different ballgame there); 2005 Alonso-Fisichella 7-1; 2006 Alonso-Fisichella 7-1; 2009 Button-Barrichello 6-2; 2011 Vettel-Webber 15-1.

All these scenarios the winning car was generally considered the best, the drivers sort of comparable yet there is a HUGE difference when the heat is on. Damon Hill is generally not regarded all that much in these circles, but he has won some races and apparently even has some sort of a Championship in his name so he must have some vague idea what is going on inside the head of the driver in the very top end of the pecking order. He has said that going from second place to leading a race and winning it is a definite paradigm shift in the drivers psyche and some will get better (start driving better) thrusted into that position and some get actually worse and crumble. And getting seriously into a championship fight ups the ante even more and this is where the pressure gets so unbearable that it is almost unimaginable. Again only certain drivers manage that and can cope with that. And you will never know what will happen before it has already happened.

Coming back to my original point. The "loser" drivers in this list weren't/aren't bad drivers by any stretch of the imagination. What they all had in common was that none of them was considered and regarded as the top dog in their respective teams when all this happened. None of them was expected to deliver the goods. They were like younger brothers. Never going to inherit the castle and the lands. Now. If you are never really expected to perform and you know that everyone expects the other guy to deliver the goods, well, what does it to your psyche? Most likely, you fulfil the prophecy and don't deliver. You perform largely as expected of you.

So what has that all got to do with our main man out here? Well, as we know, Lewis is the bes... oops, did I say "Lewis"? Sorry, almost forgot, this thread is actually about 'Button', right? Let's try that again.Well, as we know, Button hasn't performed admirably against Hamilton in qualifying. But let me ask a question - in the whole wide world, who has actually expected that of him? It has always been - "if he can get within 1 tenth he is doing a great job". Well, that doesn't sound like what you expect of a top dog, right? Well, generally Jenson has delivered about what has been expected - he has lost out in qualifying. So far everything makes sense. But let's move on to 2013. McLaren has lost their top dog and heir apparent for last 6 seasons but they have to move on and work with what they have got and what they have is a button. Now. Button knows it and everybody knows it that there is nothing to back up to. This is it, at least for the while and if he doesn't deliver, nobody will. If he goes down McLaren probably will do. He knows it, the team know it. So, he will do his utmost to not let the team down and so does the team towards him as in Saturday there is no more Lewis to fall back to and they have to work with what they got.

We also have a bit of history to look at. There have been really three times that Button has been a top dog during his career before 2013 when it actually had some real point to it. One was 2004, next was the second half of 2006 season and the third was 2009 season. 2004 he was the next best behind the all dominant Ferraris. 2006 second half of the season he was the driver that scored the most points. 2009 when the car was best or equal best he did all the heavy lifting and won enough races and performed well enough to create a buffer that dragged him all the way to a championship even when the car was far from being the best. None of those times has his teammate risen to the occasion.

As a conclusion - next year Button will be the top dog in McLaren. I am not that worried that he will underperform. Also. Several times in his McLaren career when he hasn't gotten the pole it has been because arguably the best qualifier in Formula One that incidentally happened to be his teammate had qualified if front of him and nobody else.

And a funny sidenote. Some fella compared Button to Coulthard a few posts up. Well. One thing to say about Coulthard. 5 seasons in best or equal best car, (that is 1 more however generously you would like to rate Button's cars), for about 80 races and the man never, not once, not ever won back to back races. Not once did he win a race, then go to the next one and win that too. ALL the top dogs (the champions that I listed a few rows up) have done it. Food for thought.

Edited by Buttoneer, 13 October 2012 - 23:17.Included a link to the closed thread.

Well, generallyn Jenson has delivered about what has been expected - he has lost out in qualifying. So far everything makes sense. But let's move on to 2013. McLaren has lost their top dog and heir apparent for last 6 seasons but they have to move on and work with what they have got and what they have is a button. Now. Button knows it and everybody knows it that there is nothing to back up to. This is it, at least for the while and if he doesn't deliver, nobody will. If he goes down McLaren probably will do. He knows it, the team know it. So, he will do his utmost to not let the team down and so does the team towards him as in Saturday there is no more Lewis to fall back to and they have to work with what they got.

Interesting theory but I'm not sure it applies to Jenson. Had he seen himself as a second driver the way I think Webber and Massa feel, he wouldn't have had the success he's had in recent years. Since Suzuka 2003, Jenson reflects on himself as the first driver, that has never changed and I completely think it's the only correct approach. So this psychological effect you're speaking of does not really affect this situation in my opinion, neither from McLaren because they have always adopted an equality approach anyway.

Interesting theory but I'm not sure it applies to Jenson. Had he seen himself as a second driver the way I think Webber and Massa feel, he wouldn't have had the success he's had in recent years. Since Suzuka 2003, Jenson reflects on himself as the first driver, that has never changed and I completely think it's the only correct approach. So this psychological effect you're speaking of does not really affect this situation in my opinion, neither from McLaren because they have always adopted an equality approach anyway.

You misunderstood. Boy how you misunderstood.

It's not that he sees himself as a second driver. His performance compared to Lewis has been anything but that of the second driver. It speaks volumes about his confidence and his ability to withstand pressure that comes from having a really really good teammate. I think he sees himself as an equal one, with Lewis having a clear edge of speed in qualifying while he himself makes this deficiency up elswhere. Now that TDG is gone, he and everybody around him will have to look at him as the top dog. For now, he, as a McLaren employee has been able to say that "yeah, the car is quick as we got pole" everytime Lewis did it. Next year when he didn't get pole, McLaren probably didn't get pole. It's been three seasons, just like in DC-s lack of back to back to back race wins, there have been no mitigating circumstances. The time delta is just too big. In qualifying he hasn't been McLaren's top dog and only an idiot would deny that. Idiot he is not.

It's not that he sees himself as a second driver. His performance compared to Lewis has been anything but that of the second driver. It speaks volumes about his confidence and his ability to withstand pressure that comes from having a really really good teammate. I think he sees himself as an equal one, with Lewis having a clear edge of speed in qualifying while he himself makes this deficiency up elswhere. Now that TDG is gone, he and everybody around him will have to look at him as the top dog. For now, he, as a McLaren employee has been able to say that "yeah, the car is quick as we got pole" everytime Lewis did it. Next year when he didn't get pole, McLaren probably didn't get pole. It's been three seasons, just like in DC-s lack of back to back to back race wins, there have been no mitigating circumstances. The time delta is just too big. In qualifying he hasn't been McLaren's top dog and only an idiot would deny that. Idiot he is not.

Misunderstood or not, I can't really agree with the top dog approach. It doesn't fit into McLaren's way of handling drivers. Sorry if I offend you with my posts but that's just my view on things. If Jenson misses out on pole next year it could just be that Lewis would've been able to get pole, but thinking that way would be a waste of time. For the rest, I don't think that much will change in McLaren. Jenson will continue leading the team as he has done in the past 3 years, continuing on the relation he built with them. Also, we don't know how fast Perez will be compared to Jenson, maybe he has more raw speed as well.

Interesting theory but I'm not sure it applies to Jenson. Had he seen himself as a second driver the way I think Webber and Massa feel, he wouldn't have had the success he's had in recent years. Since Suzuka 2003, Jenson reflects on himself as the first driver, that has never changed and I completely think it's the only correct approach. So this psychological effect you're speaking of does not really affect this situation in my opinion, neither from McLaren because they have always adopted an equality approach anyway.

Misunderstood or not, I can't really agree with the top dog approach. It doesn't fit into McLaren's way of handling drivers. Sorry if I offend you with my posts but that's just my view on things.

You are not offending me, you are missing my point. Doesn't matter how Mac handles their drivers. Mika and David were McLaren drivers and Mika emerged clearly on top. It has nothing to do with preferential treatment and whatnot. It has all to do with psychology. What is going on psychologically in the collective minds of these guys we will never know. Thus we don't talk about it here much, as nobody has any idea. I just say that it is a huge factor. And no, this is not a dig at Jenson, neither is it a dig about the way McLaren opt to do things.

I will always credit Dave Richards for turning Jenson's career around. Jenson needed someone to put his arm around him, almost like a father figure. Ron Dennis did the same thing with Mika. Alonso and Domenicali. Schumacher and Brawn.

Right now, it's pretty obvious that Whitmarsh and Jenson have that special relationship. Lewis has fallen out of favour and moved to Mercedes to forge a relationship with Ross Brawn.

Like BootLace mentioned, Villeneuve got replaced that weekend, for Sato. Button joined BAR as a second driver, it was Villeneuve's team. But Button made the team his and for the first time in his career became the lead driver. I think that year had a pretty large influence on the Jenson we see now.

You are not offending me, you are missing my point. Doesn't matter how Mac handles their drivers. Mika and David were McLaren drivers and Mika emerged clearly on top. It has nothing to do with preferential treatment and whatnot. It has all to do with psychology. What is going on psychologically in the collective minds of these guys we will never know. Thus we don't talk about it here much, as nobody has any idea. I just say that it is a huge factor. And no, this is not a dig at Jenson, neither is it a dig about the way McLaren opt to do things.

Fair enough, I get the David/Mika comparison. Still not sure how it will effect Jenson. He admitted himself that having Lewis as a teammate pushed him to his absolute limits and kept him on his toes at all times. Did he perform better when he was 'top dog' at BAR/Honda, compared to now? We don't know that either, but my gut tells me no. Anyway we will see next year, I find it hard to discuss right now.

He had a good run from Spa till Suzuka, but since then it's been awfully mediocre. Haven't followed F1 that closely lately, and just wondering what's going on. Anyone got any clue?

As far as I can tell it seems to be an issue turning the tyres on. In fact it looked like he had just turned them and was quick, catching Fred, when the 2nd safety car came out and f**ked his race. Didn't seem to get them switched on after that.

As far as I can tell it seems to be an issue turning the tyres on. In fact it looked like he had just turned them and was quick, catching Fred, when the 2nd safety car came out and f**ked his race. Didn't seem to get them switched on after that.

I think Lewis was really on it this race though, like Jenson at Spa.

Well I could guess it was something with tyres.. but damnit, he needs to sort this out. It sucks that even at the end of the season he hasn't figured the tyres out as other teams and drivers seem to have done. Can't believe he's gonna end up with less than 200 points this season, he really underperformed.

Well I could guess it was something with tyres.. but damnit, he needs to sort this out. It sucks that even at the end of the season he hasn't figured the tyres out as other teams and drivers seem to have done. Can't believe he's gonna end up with less than 200 points this season, he really underperformed.

It's annoying because he will get better performance if he can get tyre temp balanced. Perhaps the car is front bias hence the traction issues he was having in sector 3 off those slow corners.

Well I could guess it was something with tyres.. but damnit, he needs to sort this out. It sucks that even at the end of the season he hasn't figured the tyres out as other teams and drivers seem to have done. Can't believe he's gonna end up with less than 200 points this season, he really underperformed.

Indeed, after the 1st 3 races I really thought he was heading for the WDC, or at least in with a very good shout.

Jenson has benefitted HUGELY from testing himself against Lewis over three consecutive seasons. I can't stress that enough.

Once Jenson retires from F1 and moves on to sportscar racing with McLaren (and I think he'd be an excellent endurance racer, possibly even winning Le Mans at some point), he'll almost certainly think of the 3 years with Lewis as the years that 'made' him.

But when you stop to think about it, it's actually quite exciting to think about what kind of influence Ross Brawn will have on Lewis. The man took Jenson and made him into a world champion for pete's sake!

But anyway, McLaren definitely won't have the best line-up of the top teams next year. You definitely get the feeling that McLaren looked at the potential TelMex sponsorship as well when they signed Perez. For the best lineup next year, my vote would go in the direction of Lotus if we assume that they retain a seriously quick and more mature Romain Grosjean and that Kimi continues on his upward trend, with Mercedes as a close second.

Button will need to finish in the top-3 in the WDC next year or people will begin calling for his replacement. With Kimi, Alonso and Vettel and possibly Mercedes in the mix as well, that's going to be quite a challenge, I think.

Once Jenson retires from F1 and moves on to sportscar racing with McLaren (and I think he'd be an excellent endurance racer, possibly even winning Le Mans at some point), he'll almost certainly think of the 3 years with Lewis as the years that 'made' him.

Can't say I agree, not even the slightest. The man was a world champion before Lewis "made him".

But when you stop to think about it, it's actually quite exciting to think about what kind of influence Ross Brawn will have on Lewis. The man took Jenson and made him into a world champion for pete's sake!

You have a funny way of showing appreciation (or the lack of it) towards Jenson. First it was Lewis or the years with him that made him... dunno exactly 'what' and then it was Ross Brawn that made him a champion. Funnily enough the DDD didn't come from under the supervision of Ross Brawn's development team, they were thoroughly unable to develop the car over the season (going as far as reverting to earlier spec of the car mid season as the revisions made the car slower not faster) and his development team has provided exactly ONE race win after the year Button left. There was also another driver driving for Ross Brawn that year and apparently Ross failed to make him even second in the world championship. Dunno, I for instance think that Jenson had a bit of a part in making himself a world champion.

But anyway, McLaren definitely won't have the best line-up of the top teams next year.

One wonders what might have been your take on McLaren's lineup for 2002 season around this time 2001? Hamilton and Rosberg doesn't sound too shabby of a team either.

Button will need to finish in the top-3 in the WDC next year or people will begin calling for his replacement. With Kimi, Alonso and Vettel and possibly Mercedes in the mix as well, that's going to be quite a challenge, I think.

People were calling for Button's replacement since the day one he signed with McLaren. One thing never changes, the man is apparently considered being quite worthless by quite a lot of people.

But when you stop to think about it, it's actually quite exciting to think about what kind of influence Ross Brawn will have on Lewis. The man took Jenson and made him into a world champion for pete's sake!

I think Jenson was a better driver in 2004, long before Brawn came on the scene. The only downside to Button and BAR getting everything right was that it happened in the year when Ferrari was so dominant. Ross Brawn had a car that Honda had developed, then given the most powerful engine in F1 to power it. Button the driver wasn't a bad driver in 2008 and then suddenly became great in 2009 thanks to Ross Brawn. Saying Ross Brawn made Jenson into a world champion is the same as saying Whitmarsh made Hamilton into a world champion - try stating that in the Hamilton thread and see the replies you would get from that.

Button will need to finish in the top-3 in the WDC next year or people will begin calling for his replacement. With Kimi, Alonso and Vettel and possibly Mercedes in the mix as well, that's going to be quite a challenge, I think.

Were people calling for Hamiltons replacement last year when he finished fifth in the championship? Why would there be calls for Button to be replaced next year if he finishes third considering neither drivers will achieve that this year?

Can't say I agree, not even the slightest. The man was a world champion before Lewis "made him".

Lewis is by far the quickest team mate Jenson has ever had in F1. As far as I know, Jenson went to McLaren because he wanted to pit himself against one of the fastest drivers in the sport. Jenson has had to pull out all the stops and has been forced to dig deep to compete with Lewis. And even then, he's been comfortably beaten in the qualifying stakes and is about par on points over their 3 seasons together, mostly due to less DNFs (so better consistency). I tend to think that he takes better care of his car than Lewis, but that's just speculation on my part.

Going up against against Lewis at McLaren in equal machinery on equal terms has been a task few -- including his previous team Brawn nee Honda -- thought he would be able to handle. Yet he has handled it and has handled it well. That's why I say that it has 'made' him. He has proven to the world that his '09 WDC was well-deserved and wasn't down to luck and a fast car alone.

You have a funny way of showing appreciation (or the lack of it) towards Jenson. First it was Lewis or the years with him that made him... dunno exactly 'what' and then it was Ross Brawn that made him a champion. Funnily enough the DDD didn't come from under the supervision of Ross Brawn's development team, they were thoroughly unable to develop the car over the season (going as far as reverting to earlier spec of the car mid season as the revisions made the car slower not faster) and his development team has provided exactly ONE race win after the year Button left. There was also another driver driving for Ross Brawn that year and apparently Ross failed to make him even second in the world championship. Dunno, I for instance think that Jenson had a bit of a part in making himself a world champion.

Before Ross Brawn came along, Jenson had won but a single race with Honda. In 2007 and 2008, Honda built sheds on wheels, so mounting a championship campaign was not on the table.

In 2009, it was Ross who believed in what would go on to become the BGP01, it was Ross who bought the team and it was Ross who decided to go for a Mercedes engine instead of a Honda one.

Of course Jenson had to drive the car, and drive it well. But he was also in new territory in terms of the mind management associated with mounting a championship challenge and I think few will doubt that Ross' experience in this regard had a very positive influence.

One wonders what might have been your take on McLaren's lineup for 2002 season around this time 2001? Hamilton and Rosberg doesn't sound too shabby of a team either.

I didn't get back into F1 until the 2003 season, so I can't comment on that. The Hamilton/Rosberg pairing does indeed sound like the best or 2nd best pairing on the grid for next year (the other being Kimi and Romain Grosjean, assuming that Grosjean can become consistent while keeping his speed, considering that Romain has usually been the faster qualiferr).

People were calling for Button's replacement since the day one he signed with McLaren. One thing never changes, the man is apparently considered being quite worthless by quite a lot of people.

I've never called for his replacement during his tenure at McLaren. In fact, I think it's been great to watch his reputation and standing grow as he just keeps on matching Lewis on points. I was making the argument that, as a top driver at a top team next year, he will be expected to end up in the top 3. If he doesn't, he won't have done the job he's hired to do and that will likely result in people calling for his replacement. What's so hard to accept about that?

I think Jenson was a better driver in 2004, long before Brawn came on the scene. The only downside to Button and BAR getting everything right was that it happened in the year when Ferrari was so dominant. Ross Brawn had a car that Honda had developed, then given the most powerful engine in F1 to power it. Button the driver wasn't a bad driver in 2008 and then suddenly became great in 2009 thanks to Ross Brawn. Saying Ross Brawn made Jenson into a world champion is the same as saying Whitmarsh made Hamilton into a world champion - try stating that in the Hamilton thread and see the replies you would get from that.

Few will argue that Jenson stepped it up a level in '09. And few will argue that Ross Brawn had a positive effect on Jenson, just as I'm sure that Ross will have a positive effect on Lewis Hamilton. Just you wait and see.

Were people calling for Hamiltons replacement last year when he finished fifth in the championship? Why would there be calls for Button to be replaced next year if he finishes third considering neither drivers will achieve that this year?

First of all, everyone could see that Lewis was going through a rough patch last year. That doesn't change the fact that he's a great racing driver (and I'm by no means a Lewis Hamilton fan). If Fernando Alonso respects and fears a competitor, an armchair expert like me should probably take notice.

Second, the fact that neither driver will finish third this year is clearly down to operational and mechanical issues at McLaren, thus the drivers cannot be faulted (except perhaps Jenson's tyre slump during the spring and the race where he took himself out of contention when he clumsily hit a HRT in the wet and ended outside the points). I haven't followed Lewis' results as closely, so if there are similar races where he has to shoulder the blame, by all means point them out.

If we assume that the 2013 McLaren is as fast relative to the competition as this years car, and that they get their operational issues sorted, I would argue that Jenson needs to finish in the top 3 to have done the car justice. Given his qualities as a driver, I would have thought that that much was obvious?

Lewis is by far the quickest team mate Jenson has ever had in F1. As far as I know, Jenson went to McLaren because he wanted to pit himself against one of the fastest drivers in the sport. Jenson has had to pull out all the stops and has been forced to dig deep to compete with Lewis. And even then, he's been comfortably beaten in the qualifying stakes and is about par on points over their 3 seasons together, mostly due to less DNFs (so better consistency). I tend to think that he takes better care of his car than Lewis, but that's just speculation on my part.

Going up against against Lewis at McLaren in equal machinery on equal terms has been a task few -- including his previous team Brawn nee Honda -- thought he would be able to handle. Yet he has handled it and has handled it well. That's why I say that it has 'made' him. He has proven to the world that his '09 WDC was well-deserved and wasn't down to luck and a fast car alone.

That I agree with. But then you worded your previous statement a bit poorly. Years with Lewis haven't made him, they have increased his reputation. One can of course argue that 2012 hasn't done any favours to his reputation.

Of course Jenson had to drive the car, and drive it well. But he was also in new territory in terms of the mind management associated with mounting a championship challenge and I think few will doubt that Ross' experience in this regard had a very positive influence.

Again, the way you worded before was what irks me. I agree, that Ross 'helped' him, I disagree vehemently that he made him. One can also say, that Button 'made' Brawn GP by cutting his contracted salary to half. It probably was quite a big a chunk of their operational budget for the season.

I've never called for his replacement during his tenure at McLaren. In fact, I think it's been great to watch his reputation and standing grow as he just keeps on matching Lewis on points. I was making the argument that, as a top driver at a top team next year, he will be expected to end up in the top 3. If he doesn't, he won't have done the job he's hired to do and that will likely result in people calling for his replacement. What's so hard to accept about that?

Thing is, we don't know what kind of a car McLaren will make for 13. And pretty much every McLaren driver is expected to be in top 3. Provided McLaren will deliver the goods he has a good chance delivering his part, as he has done it several times before.

Few will argue that Jenson stepped it up a level in '09. And few will argue that Ross Brawn had a positive effect on Jenson, just as I'm sure that Ross will have a positive effect on Lewis Hamilton. Just you wait and see.

Then again, Ross has had no apparent effect on Rosberg, so go figure...

Then again, Ross has had no apparent effect on Rosberg, so go figure...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rosberg won his first race with Ross Brawn and has comfortably beaten Michael Schumacher in the same car in their time together? Few people saw that one coming. But sure, it can't all be down to Ross, that much is obvious.

I'll admit that I could have been more specific in my first post regarding my assumptions, I'll give you that. Re-reading the post, I'm not surprised I got the kind of comments I did, considering I didn't look like much of a Button fan at all. The irony.

EDIT: Regarding your aversion to my usage of the term 'made': English is my 2nd language and 'made' was the best word I could come up with in terms of connotations.

What other word would you use if we assume that I'm trying to convey a sense of someone's character being strengthened and their craft and mindset honed to a very high level by being in an ultra-competitive situation with a super quick and super talented team-mate? I honestly believe that once Jenson retires from F1, he will think back on his partnership with Lewis and how he measured up to him as something that made a difference in his career and in the F1 paddock and in the public opinion, not to mention his career stats.

Similarly, what other term would you use in relation to what Jenson's '09 championship did for his reputation and his self-confidence and standing in the F1 paddock and in the public opinion? In my view, Jenson grabbed the opportunity he was given with Brawn's BGP01 with both hands and ran with it -- so much so that many people were surprised by it (not me, mind you -- I always believed he had it in him). But you also have to keep in mind that towards the end of the campaign Webber mentioned that it looked like JB was shitting bricks out of fear that the championship was slowly slipping out of his grasp? As it turned out, it didn't because he managed to dig deep and fight his way through to 5th in Brazil. But he was clearly not comfortable with the situation.

In 2009, it was Ross who believed in what would go on to become the BGP01, it was Ross who bought the team and it was Ross who decided to go for a Mercedes engine instead of a Honda one.

It wasn't just Ross who believed in the BGP01, Jenson believed in the car enough to turn down an offer from Briatore for 2009. Ross didn't buy the team on his own, he bought it with Nick Fry and the old Honda F1 management. Given a free choice it is likely that Ross Brawn would have chosen the Ferrari engine, they went with the Mercedes instead because it was the only one that would fit in the car.

I would say Ross Brawn is brilliant at strategy and was a genius at reading the race in his Ferrari days. I just don't think Ross Brawn is the all round genius he is lauded as being.

I've never called for his replacement during his tenure at McLaren. In fact, I think it's been great to watch his reputation and standing grow as he just keeps on matching Lewis on points. I was making the argument that, as a top driver at a top team next year, he will be expected to end up in the top 3. If he doesn't, he won't have done the job he's hired to do and that will likely result in people calling for his replacement. What's so hard to accept about that?

The problem with your argument is that you state that 'other people' will call for his replacement next year as he is a top driver in a top team and expected to end up in the top three. If there are calls for Jenson to be replaced next year if he doesn't finish in the top three, why should Lewis get away with 'going through a rough patch' last year without calls for him to be replaced. Will the same 'other people' be calling for Lewis to be replaced if he doesn't manage to get into top three? If Red Bull produce another dominant car you will have Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Button fighting for third place and if Ferrari produce a dog of a car no one should be saying Alonso is useless if he only finishes sixth in the championship.

Who is to blame for where the driver finishes at the end of the year is irrelevant, there isn't a championship that takes account of team mistakes or a bad car. No one knows what each teams car will be like next year, no doubt we will all hear from Hamilton fanboys if Hamilton beats Button stating that it shows how much faster Hamilton is, while if Button beats Hamilton we will no doubt be told it's down to Button having the faster car.

That's weird innit? Consistency has been one his biggest selling points overall and this season he just isn't.

To the point that I'm wondering what's going on. I became fan of the Jenson that was consistently solid and then excelled in changing conditions, but now he only seems solid when everything is going smoothly, if something like the temperatures changes it's often a bad sign. I didn't even really care about his win in Spa, because it just seemed so random. Perhaps in the old days the races were more predictable than now, performance gaps between teams were bigger etc. which made it easier to consistently be up there, or at least make it look like that. Minor problems with tyres can also create a snowball effect, during the season but also in a particular race. Overall I have already dialed out of hoping he can make anything of this season, more focusing on the title battle. Clean sheet next year.

To the point that I'm wondering what's going on. I became fan of the Jenson that was consistently solid and then excelled in changing conditions, but now he only seems solid when everything is going smoothly, if something like the temperatures changes it's often a bad sign. I didn't even really care about his win in Spa, because it just seemed so random. Perhaps in the old days the races were more predictable than now, performance gaps between teams were bigger etc. which made it easier to consistently be up there, or at least make it look like that. Minor problems with tyres can also create a snowball effect, during the season but also in a particular race. Overall I have already dialed out of hoping he can make anything of this season, more focusing on the title battle. Clean sheet next year.

Now I'm hoping that the extremely narrow operating window of these tyres is an anomaly and we will be back to 2011ish tyres next year as rumours suggest.

From what I've read they are aiming for a wider operating window and greater degredation which, on the face of it, should suit Jenson down to the ground.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rosberg won his first race with Ross Brawn and has comfortably beaten Michael Schumacher in the same car in their time together?

And you think Ross Brawn of all people is the thing that kept Michael from getting the better of Nico?. Also, JB got his first win under the guiding hand of one just instated Shuhei Nakamoto, the man responsible of the brilliant Earth car the following year.