Let me give you the perspective of someone who is not Muslim (or believer in any other faith for that matter).

I was at a park in Southern California the other day. A large group of Muslims were there having some sort of party, maybe 100 or so. I was fascinated and curious so I watched them for 5 to 10 minutes. ALL of the women were gathered around the table preparing the meal. Each of them were dressed in the traditional Islamic garb for women. NONE of them were laughing, smiling or appeared to be enjoying the beautiful day. They did not even appear to be engaged in conversation with each other. On the other hand, ALL of the men were dressed in comfortable, stylish, casual clothing. They were laughing, drinking, playing games. NOT ONE SINGLE male was speaking to a female.

I don't think these people are terrorists but, you know what, this looks like an awful way to spend your life, particularly for the women. Maybe they accept their lot in life and act accordingly but it "appears" to be oppression to a person like me who has been taught and believes in his heart that we are all equal, male and female. I enjoy the company of women. I love to hear their opinions and at times we engage in lively debate. And you know what, sometimes the women WIN!

Whenever Islam decides to enter the 21st century maybe then outsiders will stop stereotyping Muslims.

Islam is perfect religion, it has no room for correction; but unfortunately people do wierd things in the name of Islam and people support it; It the people who have to change and follow the corect Islam that is in Quran and Sunnah; Islam gave freedom to women long time ago (even before west did!!!)
But people twist the quran according to their own needs, and present Islam as an extremist and backward religion

See statements like "Islam is perfect religion, it has no room for correction" scare the Hell out of someone like me. Aside from it causing stagnation of any cultural or social development, it means that you will do whatever this ancient book, written by a single individual, tells you to do.

Since 9/11 I've tried to better understand Islam. I've read excerpts of the Quran and, quite franking, it sounds like the rantings of psychotic individual. Sure there are a lot of good guidelines in it but there are also a lot of very disturbing passages. Your complete acceptance of is as "perfect" even when it flies in the face of logic, reason and observation I find terrifying.

Regarding women here a few quick searches of the Quran I just generated.

4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

2:222 They ask thee concerning women’s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.

Granted, some things may get lost in translation but, come on, these are barbaric and ridiculous attitudes. You guys are stuck in Medieval Times.Islam will never be accepted by modern cultures while such sanctioned oppression exists nor will Islamic women tolerate such oppression indefinitely.

24:33 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

58:3 But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered,- (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: Thus are ye admonished to perform: and Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.

That's some religion you guys got going on there. Way to make the World a better place.

24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

tgrant, thankyou for taking the interest to read the Qur'an. Yes, even a Muslim who reads the Qur'an casually for the first time will think in the same way as you are thinking. This is because our minds and thoughts are conditioned to the behaviour that we see and experience around us everyday. The people around us and the environment that we live in sets for us what we believe is right or wrong. These rights and wrong are not compared against any criterion and anything that does not conform with the set of standards that we have set up for ourselves is dismissed as medieval or barbaric. But are the standards that we have set up for ourselves delivering the goods? Are we living in a society that is giving us true happiness (not drug induced euphoria)?

I don't think the western society that I live in is really happy. There are fathers who don't know if the child that they are providing for is really their's! There are parents worried about their teenager whether he or she will come home clean. Free sex, drugs, rock and roll, nudity, alcohol, gambling, homosexulaity and even incest are the most shameful things that are in existence today. Would you not want that all the above came to an end and we had a clean society? I certainly do. My heart cries for that homeless teenager in the street injecting himself/herself with God knows what! If only the parents whom he/she was born to had instilled in them some good values they would not be in the situation that they are in. The vicious cycle goes on and everything slowly becomes acceptable - sex without marriage, promiscuity, gay priests, alcohol in moderation, drug injecting rooms, gambling in moderation...... A CHAOTIC WORLD!

But this chaos does not exist in a household that follows the criterion that God has set out for mankind. Why, eventhough they follow these medieval and barbaric laws? Because they have accepted that the answers man has to all the evils in the world are flawed! After all who is man - was he not created out of a despicable fluid? And does he put aside God's wisdom and think he has the answers? My friend there is far greater significance to the verses you have quoted if only you would ponder and seek the commentary to those verses from well known scholars such as Yusuf Ali or Ibn Kathir (the latter I have heard is very good).

If you are talking about the traslator of the Quran Yusuf Ali he was a civil servant not a proper muslim scholar.Today, tens
of publishers have reprinted his translation, some even taking the liberty
of changing it without acknowledging that changes have been made. Why these
changes were necessary has not been explained either. Some, like the Saudis,
have reprinted the translation with their own imprints as if it was commissioned
by king Fahd in person. Such lack of honesty even with so noble a book
as the Qur'an is reflective of the pathetic state of those who have imposed
themselves on the Ummah.

If you are talking about the traslator of the Quran Yusuf Ali he was a civil servant not a proper muslim scholar.Today, tens of publishers have reprinted his translation, some even taking the liberty of changing it without acknowledging that changes have been made. Why these changes were necessary has not been explained either. Some, like the Saudis, have reprinted the translation with their own imprints as if it was commissioned by king Fahd in person. Such lack of honesty even with so noble a book as the Qur'an is reflective of the pathetic state of those who have imposed themselves on the Ummah.

This is why all Muslims should devote at least part of each day to the study of the Arabic language. A translation of the Holy Qur'an is not the Qur'an but an interpretation and does not hold the validity of the original text.

On the role of women, let me ask it this way. According to the
Quran, are women to be subserviant to men? Yes or no. From
my, al beit limited, observations, Muslim men appear to treat their
wifes as property. This is a show stopper in civilized
cultures which will always make Islam a barbaric and unacceptable
religion. Is this behavior cultural or does in have its roots in
the Quran?

rami: Your insightfulness into the dangers of interpretation should
send up red flags. You see, ALL communication is subject to
interpretation. [moderator edited] read the forum guidlines beffore you post.

BTW: I Actually happen to enjoy rock and roll. Free
sex would be great but I haven't come accross that just yet. I'm
not much into the other "vices" you mentioned but I believe in a
person's freedom to make their own choices. See this is were we
differ. You believe that EVERY persons behavior should be
dictated by a book YOU find fullfilling. I don't care if you wish
to live in a cave or a castle, eat meat or vegatables, or what clothes
you wear. Live your life, follow your beliefs. Just be
tolerant of others who choose a different path.

IMHO all religions feel that they constantly must recruit new
membership becauase they are conflicted by the contractitions and
illogic of their belief system. They need others to agree with
them so that they can feel a sense of "safety in numbers".

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