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Posted:15th Feb 2006Ive come across it alot. Its here, this why im disliking home of poi more every day.

When I first joined six months ago it was different, it was less chatty, more seriouse, post counts and member numbers actually meant something. Now its changed, it has become more chatty and as a result more people have joined, infact they have come in droves because of the laid back (ha and uptight now) attitude that has surfaced and as a result hop has become more popular.

As a result there are members who are slightly old school taking offense to it, they attack new members, jump on throw away threads which dont have any real substance to them and do everything they can to discredit it/the poster and shoot them down.

Ive talked to hoppers on msn who hate members because (and I quote) 'post crap'. Now this crap isnt anyhting offensive or controversial in social discussion which people might take offense too Ive asked why, its social chit chat mainly in there own introduction threads that they are taking offence too! Not even other peoples threads, nope there own. All the while these people who dislike certain members have there own huge introduction threads full of the same sort of posts as the people they dislike.

Most of it its done behind closed doors, in msn messenger and probably through pms, I have a feeling it might surface more because of the increased numbers on hop, and everybody coming across everyone on hop and variouse other ways, it might not it might just continue the way it is now only noticable to a few, who knows.

Im also gonna add if you dont like me or anyone else for that matter have the decency to stay out of my/there way because I will start publicly showing my dislike to everyone who does it, its really lame. If you dont have anything constructive to add to this topic, stay out of it too.

This is my inpression of hop, and it ahs been ever increasingly for the past six months.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

Posted:16th Feb 2006dave - i agree with most of your points but they are very generalised observations - do they apply directly to this thread and if so, where?

joe's post did not really highlight anything about hop that could be openly discussed - mainly, he vented his frustrations, the main thrust of the post simply accusing some members of the board of unpleasent behaviour:

"members who are slightly old school taking offense to it, they attack new members, jump on throw away threads which dont have any real substance to them and do everything they can to discredit it/the poster and shoot them down."

joe gave no reference to where he thinks this has happened and then goes on to admit that he thinks that "Most of it its done behind closed doors, in msn messenger and probably through pms".

so basically its a post that says "i think people are talking about other people behind their backs".

personally, i don't think that a "get over it" reply to an 'observation' like this is unwarranted.

joes post even ends in a threat: "if you dont like me or anyone else for that matter have the decency to stay out of my/there way because I will start publicly showing my dislike to everyone who does it" which i don't think is very conducive to initiating a calm discussion.

i agree that if you see 'pack-mentality' or bullying going on, you should report it to the mods who will deal with it.

out of interest, how many posts in this thread do you think qualify as bullying and have you reported them as such?

cole. x

"i see you at 'dis cafe.i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.they do porridge."- tim westwood

Written by:Sorry Joe I totally don't get what your on about, I don't really see a problem, most of the abuse you seem to be claiming is given to some members actually seems to all be hurled at you, or is there any other members here who feel the same way?

I agree with Beth that it seems that a lot fo the topics you start are the ones that get the negative response's, are you just bitter?

Thats the second time you've basicly said that, if your determind to bring up this point please give us all some examples, if you can that is .

The last time you brought this up was in the madonna thread, you claimed that it was a fact that allmost every post ive ever posted has gotten deleted, I told you ive had two posts deleted so far (one of which Ide asked to be deleted) you never did reply then did you I guess you couldnt back up your argument, then another member told me

'if your going to state facts you've had three deleted actually '

Remember now? I'll say this again Will I dont think everyones against me, and im not bitter. If you even knew me you would know im not a bitter person, but you don know me do you all you do is assume things.

Written by:I don't think I have ever been abused, or had abuse hurled at me... Never even had someone to tell me to do a search...

How come Joe gets all the attention ah?

Written by:I'd best not answer that

Please do.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

HOP has always had circles of friends who like to talk and joke with one another, and like any other circle it can be hard to break into but moaning 'mommy they won't let me be their friend' doesn't exactly make people want to befriend one. I'm so oldschool these days I should be given a flaming zimmer frame! However as I rarely post here I would have to start making friends from scratch too. But thats part of the fun my friends : )

Posted:16th Feb 2006Written by:HOP has always had circles of friends who like to talk and joke with one another, and like any other circle it can be hard to break into but moaning 'mommy they won't let me be their friend' doesn't exactly make people want to befriend one

Thats the perfect example of this attitude on hop. Kat I dont want to be friends with these people trust me, if people say things like that who needs enemys?

'mommy they won't let me be their friend'

Who exactly are you accusing of acting like a child? Its not even right im not even saying that.

Sorry to use your post as an example kat, its a long thread I know taking in alot of information can be difficult, but that was just an easy example of what others are constantly putting on hop.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

Posted:16th Feb 2006joe - can you be more specific about what it is you are upset about?

"I dont want to be friends with these people trust me, if people say things like that who needs enemys?".

things like what, what people?

you seem to be referring to a specific incident (or several) but i don't quite understand if you think that this is going on on the board in general, to newbies in general, or if you are referring to something you have expereinced and to what you believe is going on between people in private?

cole. x

"i see you at 'dis cafe.i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.they do porridge."- tim westwood

Posted:16th Feb 2006Which attitude on hop? the old school vs. new school? Who are 'these people'? people who have a member number below 20,000?? Joe, you're not making much sense. There are circles of friends on hop, there are circles of friends in every single community in the world, not everyone can get on with everyone else. You're not friends with every person in your school/college/university are you? I'm certainly not, i have groups of friends just like here on hop.

Joe, please can you post a reply that says, simply and concisely, what your current problem with HoP is, because your first doesn't really say anything.

And as for the threads you start that garner negative responses, the madonna one, the innocent smoothies one, im sure there's more but i dont tend to read your posts anymore because of this. With the exception of this one which i think *could* have an important issue somewhere in it.

Aim high and you'll know your limits, aim low and you'll never know how high you could have climbed.

Posted:16th Feb 2006I admit that I dont think this post has any real use to it, I dont think it will, niether do I want to change anyones views or make them become a better person or whatever, (which has been said thats what im supposidly doing), its a rant basicly I needed to get it off my chest.

I think there is alot oh snobbery on hop, simply. Ive given a few rough examples but thats all they are. I sort of avoided giving specific examples because I dont want to kick up a fuss (and im alos a little lazy so im hardly gonna trall through hop copying and pasting lol), but my innocent smoothy thread, I think personally clearly has it in, so if you read that there are some examples I guess, I personally think its out there ALOT more on other threads, and ive had pms with people agreeing with me.

Like I said this was more of a rant more than anything else.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

i had a look in that thread and pyrowill says this which i think is worth repeating:

"Oh also please dont think people always seem to be picking on you on this site about most of the threads you start because I know it seems that way because almost every thread you start gets deleted, its nothing to do with you, its just often the threads you start seem to either have no point and/or could be seen as offensive, a little thought next time ey."

you've had a bit of a crappy day here i reckon, so this is for you:

cole. x

"i see you at 'dis cafe.i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.they do porridge."- tim westwood

Posted:16th Feb 2006Hmm, threads from joe that get negative responses...

The downs syndrome monkey thread springs to mind.

To be honest, I'd like specific examples. Otherwise we don't really have much idea of what you're talking about. Without them, I'm going to have to assume that what you call snobbery is actually people calling you out on creating a stupid thread, in the same way I hope that they'd tell me I was being nuts if I was.Or, that it's not enough of a problem to motivate you to copy and paste a few times.

Could you pm the people who agree with you and ask them to chime in here? I think much of this is being pushed under the carpet because there's only one person saying there's this snobbery. If more people are annoyed by it then they should post their thoughts so we can get a better picture of what this snobbery is and work out what we can do about it.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Personally, I don't think that if someone raises an issue, they're somehow obliged to fix it- many people who can identify an issue aren't necessarily capeable of finding a solution to it.

Unfortunately guys: Ranting = whinging with volume.

If you personally cannot do something to solve a problem you can always at the least make a few suggestions aimed at those who could do something. I would call this starting a dialogue with the intention of solving the problem. A rant will never solve anything, but it will upset people and get you a few negative responses from people who don't like being ranted at.

A discussion offering some ideas to get the ball rolling as to how this problem could be solved would be both interesting and usefull.

So enough of your rants Joe, perhaps take them onto MSN like other people have done?, and offer up something useful.

This is not intended to be "getting at you" but intended as constructive criticism, here have a

Posted:16th Feb 2006Basically, I'm not that sure of what Joes specific complaint is, I don't use any messenger/chat services and don't know what goes on there.

My points in this thread have been mainly gearded to the many needlessly hostile and excluding responses to Joes raising of this issue,particularly in so far as they are characteristic of several other threads currently on HOP trying to address what some see as unnecessary ganging-up and bullying.

Written by: coleman

joe's post did not really highlight anything about hop that could be openly discussed - mainly, he vented his frustrations, the main thrust of the post simply accusing some members of the board of unpleasent behaviour:

"members who are slightly old school taking offense to it, they attack new members, jump on throw away threads which dont have any real substance to them and do everything they can to discredit it/the poster and shoot them down."

joe gave no reference to where he thinks this has happened and then goes on to admit that he thinks that "Most of it its done behind closed doors, in msn messenger and probably through pms".

so basically its a post that says "i think people are talking about other people behind their backs".

personally, i don't think that a "get over it" reply to an 'observation' like this is unwarranted.

joes post even ends in a threat: "if you dont like me or anyone else for that matter have the decency to stay out of my/there way because I will start publicly showing my dislike to everyone who does it" which i don't think is very conducive to initiating a calm discussion.

cole. x

this is exactly the kind of post i have no problems with- you've disagreed with him but said why- you've not made fum of him, you've not insulted him and you've not said to him 'if you don't like it here, then stop bitching and go away'.

Written by: coleman

dave - i agree with most of your points but they are very generalised observations - do they apply directly to this thread and if so, where?

cole. x

Any of the posts that have basically suggested that those complaining/raising issues should stop using HOP (there have been several of these).

Conveniently, Kats just posted this-

Written by: Kat

Bloody Newbies! Its not like it used to be!! ; )

HOP has always had circles of friends who like to talk and joke with one another, and like any other circle it can be hard to break into but moaning 'mommy they won't let me be their friend' doesn't exactly make people want to befriend one. I'm so oldschool these days I should be given a flaming zimmer frame! However as I rarely post here I would have to start making friends from scratch too. But thats part of the fun my friends : )

(please check thesaurus for word 'joke' if you didn't pick up on the first comment.

Which has basically insulted Joe, implying that his only problem is that he can't make friends. If someone addressed a point I'd raised in that way, I'd feel insulted and 'gotten at' and I see no reason why Joe should feel any different.

Then she's used a smilie and a 'joke' reference, possibly to imply that if anyone finds her post rude, it's actually their inability to take a joke?

Fact is, the post is rude and insulting, does not help whatsoever it coming to a constructive resolution and, I suspect, makes Joe feel that little bit smaller.

And, as far as I'm concerned, if Joes wrong, then tell him so, put some effort into verbalising it in a way that may get thorough; but, making him (or anyone here) feel small is not what I want to see on HOP.

Written by: coleman

out of interest, how many posts in this thread do you think qualify as bullying and have you reported them as such?

cole. x

I'd have to look throuhg when I've got more time, as a 'guesstimate' I'd say more than 25%, possibly up to 50%.

That's pretty high and, IMO, is down to the 'pack effect' where we've got a large majority who are convinced Joe etc are wrong and, because they're part of a pack, are pretty much totally blinded to the hurt they're causing to the minority they're attacking.

I've reported no posts. I suspect that I report more posts than most on HOP and, if I see a clear breach of HOP guidlines (eg calling someone an 'idiot') I'll report it straight away.

On this issue, it's a grey area, this whole issue is one that previously has only bubbled under the surface and only recently have some individuals started to publicly address it.

Sadly, given the undoubted courage it takes to put yourself on the line by bringing up these issues, the main response has been of the 'put-down' and bullying variety, which, IMO is a big reason more of those who feel this way either keep their mouths shut, or cease using the board.

I very much hope that this thread and the others like it, lead to some clarification over whether some of these posts are unnacceptable to the extent that they are suitable for reporting to the mods.

Certainly,as I said before, I'd urge anyone who feels themselves to be a victim of 'put-downs'/bullying to report it- I feel that this will help show the extent of the problem and lead to some general guidelines being put out.

"You can't outrun Death forever.But you can make the Bastard work for it."

Personally, I don't think that if someone raises an issue, they're somehow obliged to fix it- many people who can identify an issue aren't necessarily capeable of finding a solution to it.

I don't think they are obliged to fix it, but I do think they're oblidged to do more about it than bitch. Otherwise, they're just bitching. If they have a vested interest in the outcome they should put some effort in affecting it.

The tone on HoP is something that individual members can do something about. Bitching about bitches is hypocritical and counter productive. There are many occations where bitterness has provoked members to try and counter that with warmth and love. Jem's thread on 'comforts' was such a sweet one. There are plenty of folks who've taken actual EFFORT to change the vibe to a more positive one.

There are two groups of people, those that do, and those that do nothing. All too often, it's those that do nothing that bitch the loudest.

You're a decent bloke NYC, also intelliegent and fairly sensitive, and I know you don't mean any harm.

And of course, what you say about 'bitching' is true, it's generally counter-productive and annoying to simply 'bitch' about things.

But, in the context of this issue, which clearly is taking in more than Joes specific complaint and is connecting with several other threads that have in common the fact that a minority of HOP-ers are now stating that they have felt themselves to have been bullied/put-down etc (one such thread being the recent 'do a search' one)- I feel that applying the blanket term 'bitching' is not helpful in resolving this.

Part of the whole problem is that, what some are seeing as 'bitching', others are seeing as 'valid complaint' or (more usefully) as issues which can be tackled to make HOP even better than it already is.

Dismissing these issues and 'bitching' is convenient in that we can them go about our business safe in the knowledge that there isn't a real problem and that those who think there is are simply 'wrong' or over-sensitive.

However, it solves nothing and it aids in excluding and pushing away those individuals.

"You can't outrun Death forever.But you can make the Bastard work for it."

To anyone who feels like they are "left out" or "victimised" - (Please note use of quote marks)

If you have a problem with someone, there's no need to go shouting it from the rooftops, or getiing into a rant to get it off your chest, sort it out with the person involved. If there is a problem, seek a solution.

If you cant find a solution then agree to disagree. After all, as has been re-iterated several times in this thread "Its only a website" Its not going to start WWIII or anything.

I would hope that if anyone had a problem with me, they would talk to me about it and tell me how they feel, rather than circumventing the issue. I would rather we tried to sort it out, after all the vast majority of HoPpers, and all of them I have met so far, have been rational sensible human beings, not monsters that hate on you just for hating on you.

Posted:16th Feb 2006Okay I don't want to sound like a pure bitch and have never meant to sound that way and if this gets me in the [censored] then I will take it, so feel free to say what you want to me after I have said what I have to say...

In some ways Brit_Jo is right....HoP is and can be very nasty towards people. When I first came here I was put in my place a couple of times because something I said was taken the wrong way (that was on the old boards so I take it that means I am old Skool by the way)....I am a very forthright person and tend to be very opinioated which I know has rubbed a few people up the wrong way....but that happens EVERYWHERE!!! If some person at you school didn't like something you said they would normally just not talk to you (ignore you) or maybe make you feel like a fool and belittle you...wow...isn't that what goes on here?

Except for one thing in real life they are allowed to say a lot worse and can be more damaging to a person than what we are allowed to do on here (thank goodness for the moderators!)

Even as what most people would call and old skooler here on HoP I must say it is extremely cliquey on the board (unlike the other boards that I am on - mind you there is not even half the amount of people on those boards) and even to this date I have felt like an outsider.

Don't get me wrong I love HoP otherwise I still wouldn't be here.

As for the comments about people bitching on MSN about people or what they post well let them, their conversations are private and none of our business but if they want to take bitterness and nastiness into their lives then that is their perogative.

So I do agree with some aspects of what the original topic was about but there are some things that you just have to sort of get over because they are never going to change and letting them affect you is only going to cause you heartache not the person/s being nasty, bitchy and plain inconsiderate.

And please don't blame all the problems for nastiness on the old skoolers...I know that some of the new comers can tend to be just as nasty.

Dismissing these issues and 'bitching' is convenient in that we can them go about our business safe in the knowledge that there isn't a real problem and that those who think there is are simply 'wrong' or over-sensitive.

However, it solves nothing and it aids in excluding and pushing away those individuals.

I disagree. I find it very helpful to redirect people away from effortless complaint.

I was actually referring more to my fire community than Joe on most of my thread. We've got a pretty low tolerance for people posting complaints who don't take the time to be on the planning comittee. I think the same is true here.

Since I saw absolutely nothing pro-active in what Joe originally posted and for that reason was critical of it.

1. Acknowledgment that there is a sort of pack mentality developing on Home of Poi, which is hard to moderate because people are finding themselves at home within the grey area of the posting guidelines. I have noticed several members doing this of late and intend to PM them to let them know.

2. The bandwagon is full. I think we have well and truly established that these threads are quite common and often serve little positive purpose. Does every active member really need to have their say, when countless other people have already expressed something similar? C'mon guys... I had hoped we were more mature than that. Surely many of you have sufficient social intelligence to understand the dynamics of the boards.... Sometimes it's better to not say anything - a droplet of negativity can fast become a deluge when everyone feels the need to express their feelings on certain issues.

3. A post made by a moderator in this thread (me) goes barely noticed. If a complaint is vaild, and I request 'evidence' of such, then I expect it. It's now 24 hours later and my inbox is empty. If people are going to cause a stir, dissent even, then let it be for real reasons - not "just a rant". People need to understand that the HOP team takes stuff like this really seriously... don't waste my time and emotion please. I have several years of vested interest in this site and take it to heart when issues pop up. With the increasing frequency of issues being raised, I'm doing everything I can, along with the other moderators and Malcolm, in most of these sort of threads to get things moving forward. Help us out, yeah? Otherwise, I'm going to get desensitised... boy. wolf. cried. who.

4. (this is where my hat of diplomacy gets thrown on the ground) KNOW THYSELF. If you're an opinionated type, hotheaded and willing to put yourself out on a limb regarding contraversial issues, then you gotta have a thick skin. Suck it up, or don't post sensitive stuff.

if you have a real issue with the way things are on Home of Poi, then please contact the moderators. This includes you Brit_Joe. PM me with a well constructed complaint, using examples of the negative stuff you're experiencing and we'll go from there. If you're just looking to stir the pot and get some attention, please don't do it here anymore

HoP Posting GuidelinesIs it the Truth? Is it Fair to all concerned? Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships? Will it be Beneficial to all concerned? If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

Posted:16th Feb 2006I kinda get the sneaking suspicion that maybe I, among other people, have been guilty of the "Pack mentality" OWD describes. However, I would like to think that when I have done so, I have done so because of reasons better than "Everyone else is doing it, so I'll join in."

If I disagree with someone, it will be because of what they have posted, not because of what my personal opinion of that person is. I argue with Patriarch 917 quite a lot, but I acknowledge that he does have a sense of humour that I like. I disagree with what he says, but I have no "grudge" and (I hope) no tendency to "Victimise".

I guess I'm just pointing out that there is a difference between:

Post -> Pack Mentality.

and

Post -> Lots of disagreement.

Just because lots of people disagree with a person doesn't make them guilty of bullying the person. It might simply be that the poster has done one of the following:

Posted something offensivePosted in a way that several people feel is offensivePosted inaccurate/useless informationPosted something that people feel strongly about, and moreover, s/he is in the minority on the subject.

Erm... to sum up: Just because lots of people seem to end up shouting at someone doesn't automatically make them guilty of bullying.

Wow... that was more coherent than some of the work I'm getting graded on...

(and 38 posts since I logged on this morning? Slow down )

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Posted:16th Feb 2006I don't think I need to lock it Asena. I don't feel that I need to have the final say ALL the time What Sethis said was valid, and other people may have some other relevant, fresh ideas to contribute to this thread.

On the other hand, I may just be biding my time and preparing my hangman's noose.

HoP Posting GuidelinesIs it the Truth? Is it Fair to all concerned? Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships? Will it be Beneficial to all concerned? If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

Posted:16th Feb 2006i thought "home of poi snobbery" was the name of a new website. i would have signed up immediately!

the fact is there's a lot of suppression of validation on this site. things like declarations of (self)originality, any sort of "better than" mentality, and even claiming to fully understand any aspect of poi are shunned. this suppression leaves people who have been spinning poi for a while a lot of uncertainty about whether they've wasted and/or plan to waste a lot of their time doing something they're not going to be "good" at. which leaves them looking for lots of ways to tell what normally counts as good --more "original", "better", and "fully understood". at first they find out about numbered move names and higher numbered progressions, and think they've found a "better". they see anyone talking about originality or unifying theories shut down left and right with the hints that there is no "original, better, or fully understood", so eventually they repeat that mantra while not seeming to understand where to apply it in their actions...

summary: any way, the point is that it's all about lack of validation and support, which some people feel should be given on demand and some feel needs to be earned to not equate to "asskissing". so if we want to formally declare this the "Home of Poi Asskissing" and start a new "Home of Poi Snobbery", I'll admit I'd be the first through the gates -- sometimes I like a bit of snobbery, and more often find excessive asskissing annoying. we shouldn't force one way of discussion on either group tho.

that's my 2 rupees on the original topic...

now the only thing i hate worse than either snobbery or asskissing tho is meta-posting. WTF is this thread supposed to accomplish, and how? Brit_Joe, why don't you spend less time making threads that annoy people (as popular opinion seems to dictate you do) and more time policing the individual posts that annoy you to fill them with more useful information and provide an EXAMPLE of how you think things should be done. i'd love to see that from anyone, and so would even those that disagree with you, i'd wager.

another solution would be to make it explicitly clear that most poi discussion people want to have on this site is social chat, and to let people post things like "i learned X and i've only been spinning 2 days!" and get congratulations and suggestions in that forum. have someone kindly move these threads to social if they seem unlikely to contribute much technically. it would also give social people something to do besides make bbs versions of the latest round of preteen MySpace games. i dunno. two birds may be two too many... you want change tho, enact change. don't whine about it. :P [/meta_snobbery]

Posted:16th Feb 2006There's a lot of people taking a lot of offence over things that have probably been taken out of context. That's the trouble when we've evolved to use all our senses to figure out what someone's saying, and it gets reduced to relying on one and filling in the gaps ourselves.

Ultimately we all log off at the end of the day (apart from a few overly keen individuals) and get on with our lives. If someone you've never met and in all likelihood never will takes it upon themselves to pick posts to bits, it's a little rude, but in reality, inconsequential.

There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

I kinda get the sneaking suspicion that maybe I, among other people, have been guilty of the "Pack mentality" OWD describes. However, I would like to think that when I have done so, I have done so because of reasons better than "Everyone else is doing it, so I'll join in."

If I disagree with someone, it will be because of what they have posted, not because of what my personal opinion of that person is. I argue with Patriarch 917 quite a lot, but I acknowledge that he does have a sense of humour that I like. I disagree with what he says, but I have no "grudge" and (I hope) no tendency to "Victimise".

I guess I'm just pointing out that there is a difference between:

Post -> Pack Mentality.

and

Post -> Lots of disagreement.

Just because lots of people disagree with a person doesn't make them guilty of bullying the person. It might simply be that the poster has done one of the following:

Posted something offensivePosted in a way that several people feel is offensivePosted inaccurate/useless informationPosted something that people feel strongly about, and moreover, s/he is in the minority on the subject.

Erm... to sum up: Just because lots of people seem to end up shouting at someone doesn't automatically make them guilty of bullying.

Wow... that was more coherent than some of the work I'm getting graded on...

(and 38 posts since I logged on this morning? Slow down )

I'd agree that there is a big difference between pack bullying and the situation where a lot of people are simply disagreeing with an individual.

Obviously, it's totally OK for a lot of people to disagree with an individual- I've certainly been in that position and it's no problem. For example, my ideas on the 'ultimate theory of reality' where, as far as I recall, no-one actually thought I was right and everyone disagreed with me.

But it's no problem, simple disagreement is fine.

The difference between that and 'pack mentality bullying' is when that group go further and attack an individual through name-calling, insults or (as on this thread) telling them to either shut-up or stop using the board.

Written by:

Erm... to sum up: Just because lots of people seem to end up shouting at someone doesn't automatically make them guilty of bullying.

Actually, and apologising in advance if I'm guilty of taking your words literally, but picking them out because they conveniently illustrate the point I'm making above- it's precisely when people go beyond simple disagreeing and start 'shouting' (or name-calling etc) when a group starts to slip into pack mentality bullying.

There's no need, or justification for 'shouting' at someone.

Even if that individual has themselves been offensive, that is not (as some in this thread have suggested) justification for being rude back- the appropriate response is moderator notification.

"You can't outrun Death forever.But you can make the Bastard work for it."

Posted:16th Feb 2006Sorry, I think that might have been a misuse of the word "Shouting" on my part.

I meant it in the sense that people are strenuously disagreeing with the argument that the poster is making.

Not that people are calling the person offensive names and/or bullying them.

I try (and I think everyone else does too) to make my posts relevant, polite and sensible. Problem is, it's sometimes difficult to do that. I *know* I've personally attacked people in the past, hopefully not that recently. I think though, that if someone *is* being repeatedly insulted then maybe they could spare a couple of minutes to wonder why?

I'm not endorsing personal attacks, but:

If one person calls you a idiot, ignore them.If two people call you a idiot, get a third opinion.If three people call you a idiot, go back to your village, they're missing you.

Like I said, I'm not condoning personal attacks, bullying or victimisation. I'm just wondering that maybe instead of responding to a lot of disagreement by saying "You're all elitist and bullies" you might think "Hey, maybe I *am* in the wrong". God knows I've felt that a lot when I'm in Discussion

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Sorry, I think that might have been a misuse of the word "Shouting" on my part.

I meant it in the sense that people are strenuously disagreeing with the argument that the poster is making.

Not that people are calling the person offensive names and/or bullying them.

I try (and I think everyone else does too) to make my posts relevant, polite and sensible. Problem is, it's sometimes difficult to do that. I *know* I've personally attacked people in the past, hopefully not that recently. I think though, that if someone *is* being repeatedly insulted then maybe they could spare a couple of minutes to wonder why?

I'm not endorsing personal attacks, but:

If one person calls you a idiot, ignore them.If two people call you a idiot, get a third opinion.If three people call you a idiot, go back to your village, they're missing you.

Like I said, I'm not condoning personal attacks, bullying or victimisation. I'm just wondering that maybe instead of responding to a lot of disagreement by saying "You're all elitist and bullies" you might think "Hey, maybe I *am* in the wrong". God knows I've felt that a lot when I'm in Discussion

I think we've all 'attacked' people in the past; it's something we learn from and it's fair to say I've been guilty of it in the past as well.

One of the main points I've been trying to make on this (and the other threads on this issue) is that the vast majority of 'bullying' is not intended as such. I really believe that.

However, the fact that offense is not intended doesn't stop it causing offence.

Equally of course, just because someone takes offense does not mean that the post was offensive- they may simply be the kind of person who sees attacks where there is no attack.

This means, and it is admittedly somewhat inconvenient , that a line has to be drawn. For any given post we can't say

1 X has taken offense therefore the post is offensive

or

2 X has taken offense therefore X is being over-sensitive

Whether the post is offensive or not rests on the content and context of the post and, to an extent, is down to interpretation.

Many of the posts of this thread (and some others) are, in my opinion, unnecessarily rude, exclusive or bullying.

That doesn't mean I'm necessarily right, but, it's the way I see it and I try to make a case for it.

Where you say-

Written by:

If one person calls you a idiot, ignore them.If two people call you a idiot, get a third opinion.If three people call you a idiot, go back to your village, they're missing you.

I'd say-

If one person calls you an idiot

then report it to the mods- it's not acceptable to call someone an idiot on this board.

It's OK for them to disagree with you and, if they want to go a bit further and communicate why they disagree then that's fine; calling you an idiot is not fine.

(Again, apologies if I'm picking out words and using them far more literally than they're intended, it's just they're usful for the points I'm trying to make)

"You can't outrun Death forever.But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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