Posted
by
Zonk
on Friday May 19, 2006 @10:49AM
from the penguin-wrangler dept.

just_another_sean writes "Calling him 'reclusive' and the 'leader of the Open Source Revolution' CNN has an interview with Linus Torvalds. From the article: "I actually only work with a few handfuls so I tend to directly interact with maybe 10 - 20 people and they in turn interact with other people. So depending on how you count, if you count just the core people, 20 -50 people. If you count everybody who's involved; five thousand people -- and you can really put the number anywhere in between... Almost, pretty much all, real work is done over e-mail so it doesn't matter where people are."

I think what they meant by reclusive is that he prefers to stay out of the limelight and doesn't do any attention whoring like many famous people tend to do. Unfortunately for CNN the word recluse usually has some negative connotations with it, so it makes it seem like they are taking a demeaning stance (which perhaps the writer is, if he's a pro-Microsoft zealot)

Looks like you dared to challenge the Linus Torvalds personality cult.

Actually, I do not think there is such a thing, at least not to a degree that most brainless "celebrities" get. For a "personality cult" one needs continuous media hyping in places watched by the sort of sheeple who are prone to falling for "personalities" in the first place.

Linux and FOSS crowd is far more likely to become zealous about ideas (such as the whole concept of FOSS or the GPL) rather then people. Sure, some do admire Linus personally, but we are not beyond getting into regular flame wars with him when he is demonstrably wrong. Just check out the whole BitKeeper saga on the LKLM.

"KLS: Over the years, Linux has spawned other open technologies and even an open source spirit or open source philosophy. It has engendered stuff like Wikipedia, the online open source encyclopedia or even, some could argue, citizen journalism. What are your thoughts about that?"

LT: We shouldn't give credit to Linux per se. There were open source projects and free software before Linux was there. Linux in many ways is one of the more visible and one of the bigger technical projects in this area and it changed how people looked at it because Linux took both the practical and ideological approach. At the same time I don't think this whole "openness" notion is new. In fact I often compare open source to science. To where science took this whole notion of developing ideas in the open and improving on other peoples' ideas and making it into what science is today, and the incredible advances that we have had. And I compare that to witchcraft and alchemy, where openness was something you didn't do. So openness is not something new, it is something that actually has worked for a long time"

Talking about a t-shirt which showed Linus as a sword-wielding leader:

"It's ironic," says Stallman mournfully. "Picking up that sword is exactly what Linus refuses to do. He gets everybody focusing on him as the symbol of the movement, and then he won't fight. What good is it?"

I would. I mean its pretty much between RMS and Linus, and I would give it to Linus.

Sure GNU did come first and Linux would be impotent without it, but Linus has something Stallman does not. Brand name recognition and a damn good OS that powers a bunch of the internet, routers, printers, digital picture frames, you name it.

Also, Linus is more suit and general public friendly than RMS will ever be.

If its not Linus or Stallman, who is the OSS leader or is there no leader but rather just a bizarre style of underground thing?

Linus and RMS are both kinds of "leaders" in the open source movement, at the same time, the movement isn't a top-down organization, but, well, a diverse movement, so its not all that much something that is "led" by "leaders". A better word -- as someone else suggested in the thread for Linus -- for both might be "icons", as there role in the movement, from my perspective, is largely one of inspiration rather than direction.

the movement isn't a top-down organization, but, well, a diverse movement, so its not all that much something that is "led" by "leaders"

So true, I agree completely. Just like ESR's "Cathedral and the Bazaar", OSS is the bazaar, there is no real leader, someone to sue, someone to blame, its just there, and it works, and that is what scares the suits and whatnot.

I see Linux as "ours". It started out as Linus' baby, but its free, and anybody is capable of doing a fork of it at anytime just like XFree86 to X.

I would say just the opposite. For me, it's all about the community which RMS had a big part in building. Linux is just a kernel; I use Debian, and GNU, and other Free Software, that's well engineered, developed in public, supported in public, etc. As far as the kernel underneath it all goes, I really don't care if it's Linux or HURD or some BeOS clone, or something else, as long as it's under a Free license.

I would. I mean its pretty much between RMS and Linus, and I would give it to Linus.

You would choose between two people who aren't even in the running?

RMS doesn't consider himself a supporter of Open Source. And Linus Torvalds has made it clear on several occasions, most infamously with the BitKeeper debacle, that he's NOT an Open Source, or Free Software, advocate, he's quite happy with proprietary software.

I'm not sure who qualifies as an Open Source leader. There's the official one, Michael Tieman

Well, there's a third option of GNU/Linux. But actually I'd prefer option number 2 (The distro) and that's what I'm starting to lean towards when someone asks me what OS I use. Calling it by the distro name and letting people know that there are lots of distros lets them know that it's a wide scale planet wide thing, not lead or created by any one person.

And for me it's not just who gets the credit, but the history of the whole thing. People talk about the OS as "Linux", then use the information that Torva

It's sad, but there are actually people out there that will buy a product specifically because it says it supports Linux. They believe that Linux is the answer to everything. They'll buy iPods and install Linux on them. They'll choose their mobile phone based solely on the fact that it runs Linux, even though it has no bearing on the device's functionality what-so-ever. They just need to see that "runs Linux" sticker on the box. If, for example, Apple swapped out XNU for the Linux kernel, and made no other

There was a shop in Venice, in the Los Angeles metropolitan area, which sold open source software in the late 1980s. You picked your choice of OSS and sat in the waiting room while they prepared your 360kb 5.25" diskettes. I went there a few times, but it was like buying some herbal tea from a chinese shop.

If you ask me, the biggest contribution of Linux was turning the OSS movement from a "niche" to a "community". Linux got a recognition from the mainstream software world that GNU never came even close to obtaining.

The headline asks the question if he is the leader, its not a statement but since you brought it up, whom would you declare the OSS leader? Al Gore?

Maybe, but only if he picks Feingold as his running mate.

But seriously, it would have to be RMS. Linus pointedly isn't trying to lead a movement (at a conference he reportedly said "I really don't like the idea of thousands of people following me. (pause) But I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me where the men's room is.").

RMS, on the otherhand, has been pointently "leading" for going on three decades now.

--MarkusQ

P.S. And what Gore actually said was: "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system." Which was true.

As Vincent Cerf, said "The Internet would not be where it is in the United States without the strong support given to it and related research areas by the Vice President [Gore] in his current role and in his earlier role as Senator."

And Dave Ferber said without Gore the Internet "would not be where it is today."

And Marc Andreesen said "Gore made [Mosaic] possible with the High Performance Computing Act."

And Joseph E. Traub said "[Gore] was perhaps the first political leader to grasp the importance of networking the country. Could we perhaps see an end to cheap shots from politicians and pundits about inventing the Internet?"

During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.

That is the key point.

You've proved the Internet would not be where it is today without Gore's help.

You haven't proved that the Internet was created due to Gore's initiative.

Nuts. Saying you took the initiative in doing something does not mean that you accomplished it single handedly, or even that you cause it to happen. It means that you got off your butt and started working towards a goal bef

Yeah, but as the Stephen Colbert press incident show weeks ago, centralized news media like CNN or magazines like Newsweek (not talking AP or Reuters here) is becoming more and more irrevelant - well, at least if you want to be current on what's actually happening versus what's safe and fun to show/print or in the case of trends, what has actually already happened.

It's the perfect case of ignoring a person all the while and later coming up to him and saying "hey, where have you been hiding all this time?". I guess by reclusive they mean that he doesn't keep shouting his own name off the top of a hill.I don't think Linus is reclusive, just that the "corporate world" prefers to use his creation without giving him much due.

While there will be many posts claiming that he's not THE leader of OSS there is absolutely no doubt that he is one of the most important figures in

The tribes that talk through the likes of CNN count anyone as reclusive who won't go down on an ego dildo (microphone) and help CNN sell advertising space.

The maddening crowd seems to be too intellectually limited to understand that their need for heroes, saints and sinners is about as interesting as reading a popularization of a first year anthropology text book.

Not to mention the hours lost mugging for CNN that could have been spent productively.

"One of the best and most succinct documents on netiquette is RFC1855 (RFC stands for "Request for Comments")....from this document:

Don't wander offtopic, don't ramble, and don't send mail or post messages solely to point out other people's errors in typing or spelling. These, more than any other behavior, mark you as an immature beginner."

Ok, A customer was continually bothering the waiter in a restaurant; first, he'd asked that the air conditioning be turned up because he was too hot, then he asked it be turned down cause he was too cold, and so on for about half an hour.
Surprisingly, the waiter was very patient, walking back and forth and never once getting angry. So finally, a second customer asked why didn't they just throw out the pest.
"Oh I don't care." said the waiter with a smile. "We don't ev

KLS: I understand, but let's say your mom or my mom, they're surfing the Internet but maybe they're not surfing with Firefox just yet or they don't really know what Linux is just yet.

This went unchallenged... you would have thought that she would be one of the first people to know about linux (even if she never will understand it and proabably still needs him to install a printer - as all mothers do)

To where science took this whole notion of developing ideas in the open and improving on other peoples' ideas and making it into what science is today, and the incredible advances that we have had. And I compare that to witchcraft and alchemy, where openness was something you didn't do.

For example I long ago decided I will never go to meetings again because I think face to face meetings are the biggest waste of time you can ever have.

Hi, this is Dan from Human Resources. You probably don't know me, because you were absent from the Workplace Amicable Relationship Promotion Meeting. After meeting with your supervisors, we have come to the decision that we should meet with you RE your attitude toward workplace gatherings.

Not only does your absence from group meetings project the wrong image to the rest of the company, but some employees have taken it as a personal affront. There have been complaints, and many people at the last Work/Life Socialization Meeting have asked us to step in. Is 2:00 PM okay for everyone?

"Normally I am not recognized, people don't throw their panties at me."

A considerable majority of the open source movement are guys. I for one wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a crusty boxer short shower!

Come the next Linus-attended Linux convention, we need to respond to Linus' between-the-lines appeal for a panty shower one way or another. Will the geekgrrls and the linuxchixs please stand up(, remove panties, aim, let loose) and be counted to preempt the crusty boxer short shower scenar

LT: I don't notice that in normal life. I don't actually go to that many conferences. I do that a couple of times a year. Normally I am not recognized, people don't throw their panties at me. I'm a perfectly normal person sitting in my den just doing my job.

Do I sense a bit of disappointment here, a Freudian slip perhaps?All in all, not a bad interview. Good insight into why he does what he does.

LT: Absolutely. There was a bit of bragging, there was also a bit of, hey, I still, the way I do my work is I sit these days downstairs in my basement alone. And it's nice to just talk to people and a lot of it was probably just social, just saying, hey this is a way to interact with other geeks who are probably also socially inadequate in many ways.

Pretty good insight - it's a way for geeks to socialize other than Star Trek conventions!

(Ducks)

On science and software development:

LT: We shouldn't give credit to Linux per se. There were open source projects and free software before Linux was there. Linux in many ways is one of the more visible and one of the bigger technical projects in this area and it changed how people looked at it because Linux took both the practical and ideological approach. At the same time I don't think this whole "openness" notion is new. In fact I often compare open source to science. To where science took this whole notion of developing ideas in the open and improving on other peoples' ideas and making it into what science is today, and the incredible advances that we have had. And I compare that to witchcraft and alchemy, where openness was something you didn't do. So openness is not something new, it is something that actually has worked for a long time.

Great comparison between open software and science, both of which a lot of people don't get.

On the uselessness of meetings:

KLS: So the face to face thing is a little bit overrated?

LT: I think so. For example I long ago decided I will never go to meetings again because I think face to face meetings are the biggest waste of time you can ever have. I think most people who work at offices must share my opinion on meetings. Nothing ever gets done. When things get done, you usually have someone come into your office to talk about it. But a lot of the time the real work gets done by people sitting, especially in programming, alone in front of their computers doing what they do best.

Dilbert freed from the pointy-haired boss type - Pretty cool. Interesting interview, I may and try and watch it rather than read it.

It seemed that CNN were trying to ask very pointed questions, trying to make Linus out to be some warrior against Microsoft. I like this part:

KLS: Another reason, because it's an alternative to Microsoft?

LT: Well that is, I think, played up more than it necessarily needs to be. Because there is a very vocal side to this which is the whole anti Microsoft thing. I think it makes a better story than is necessarily true in real life.

For a techie guy who doesn't have reams of PR guys behind him and telling him what he should say, he handled the press pretty well.

I thought CNN were supposed to be respectable, like the US version of the BBC or something? It seemed like they were just looking for some big scoop with regards to people being Anti-Microsoft rather than trying to have an interesting interview with a major contributor to an alternative OS.

No such equivilence in the US.Just watch how they react to news stories on the air - you'll see it after awhile as long as you pay attention. Just like MSNBC and Fox News (although to different points of view).

Major television news outlets in the US are worthless, and this comes from a US citizen.

It seemed like they were just looking for some big scoop with regards to people being Anti-Microsoft rather than trying to have an interesting interview with a major contributor to an alternative OS.

Actually, this kind of questioning probably comes from the point of the interviewers looking at the open source community... Let's face facts, there are a lot of OSS mouthpieces out there who take every oppertunity to slight Microsoft. It's part of the subculture and probably for all the wrong reasons. How man

No comment on the respectability (or lack thereof) of CNN, but it's not apt to compare them to the BBC. The BBC is a public broadcasting company; CNN is private.

The BBC is more comparable to PBS, although I believe the BBC is funded, at least in part, through a direct tax on those who use the service by way of a "tv license" that one must buy to purchase a tv, while public media in the US compete for grants from the CPB, which is in turn funded by taxes.

Well, I usually get my news from the BBC, RTE (they're Irish) and Euronews (that's a great channel!). I look at Fox News for pure entertainment purposes. Every now and again I flick through CNN and it doesn't seem as crazy as Fox... I suppose appearances can be deceiving.

The first Torvalds quote in the article: "Well today what I do mostly is actually communication."

And working directly with 10-20 people counts as being part of a farily large team. If you spent an average of an hour a week discussing issues with those individuals, then that amounts to half your work time.

Note that headlines and articles are usually written by different people, and often different viewpoints and motivations are evident.

I always enjoy reading interviews with Linus. They are rare which makes them more enjoyable. Linus is an interesting guy and probably a model for a significant number of geeks in the world. So thanks for granting an interview and making my life better.

Apple seems to be slowly and surely becoming the home base for open source and cutting edge development and is moving out to dominate the "gadgets" market.

If by "dominate the gadgets market" you mean selling lots of iPods, maybe you are right. But "home base for open source"? The Apple operating system isn't open source, for chrissake! There's no intersection between Linux and Apple, Linux is an open source operating system, Apple is a system which has some open source elements, but the OS isn't one of them. It used to be but, thanks to the BSD license, that detail has been fixed.

As for this "cutting edge development", could you be so kind and point us to any big OSS project whose development began in Apple and was later adopted by others? I mean, like Konqueror was the basis for Safari, only the other way round?

Oh, sorry, I forgot, don't feed the trolls, or maybe that big "whooosh" was the joke going over my head?

Karma whores are individuals, or messages themselves, that attempt to receive feedback in the form of karma points. Often these will be needless information (such as a link to a Wikipedia article relevant to the subject being discussed)