I posted the following on an atheist vs. Christian debate website. I have not become an atheist, just a disillusioned, disenchanted, disheartened former Christian who is convinced that God falls into one of three categories: one, he's an apathetic, ambivalent, indifferent absentee landlord, two, a sadist, or three, suffers with multiple-personality disorder. I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE TO ME THAT MY ANALOGY IS FLAWED.

The post was titled "Is God a Sadistic Monster?" A judge brings a frightened 18 year old girl before his court. The girl has committed no "crimes" per se, but has committed many of the same "sins" that an average young woman of her age might have committed in the course of her short life, i.e. white lies, masturbation, "mouthing off" to parents and authority figures, cheating in school, and a host of other petty misdeeds. The judge tells the girl that she will be allowed no legal representation. No one will be permitted to speak on her behalf but she herself. The judge tells this girl that although her "crimes" are minor, she will be taken out, doused in gasoline, set ablaze, and then thrown into a vat of sulfuric acid while she is still burning.. Then he, the judge, will stand over this vat and listen to her beg and scream for mercy until she finally expires in excruciating inconceivable agony.NOW, this is going to require an inordinate amount of objectivity on the part of any fundamentalist or evangelical reading this, which, having been one, I know is probably beyond your capacity. However, in all honesty, what would society call this judge? Righteous? Pure? Merciful? PLEASE!! Don't delude yourself! It is a safe bet that society would probably call him a sadistic beast not worthy to live on the same planet with decent human beings!Now, this same girl appears before "The Sinner's Judgment" withthe Honorable Judge Jesus Christ presiding! He also tells her that she will not be allowed legal representation. For no other reason than because she failed to "mouth out" the "sinners prayer", this merciless brute of a God (I use God and Jesus interchangeably because Christians consider them the same) will throw this terrified young, barely beyond adolescence (but beyond the scripturally ambiguous "age of accountability"), girl into the "Lake of Fire", a fate approximately one million times more agonizing than what the Earthly judge subjected her to.Now, what makes God, Jesus, whomever, any different than this Earthly judge? How is God different morally? Ultimately, there is no difference, and I have, in fact, "called the Emperor naked". For Godto throw ANY person into eternal fire where they will never die and never know respite, and scream and wail while God and Jesus treat it as "music to their ears" is such a morally unconscionable act it beggars description!! The fact is, God is a two-faced hypocrite who employs a "double standard". He claims not to tolerate cruelty and inhumanity, and he will become the most inhumane, vicious, merciless, animalistic brutal sadistic monster ever in history when, on Judgment Day, he throws the billions of "lost souls" into this eternal barbecue pit. Now, I would like to confront the most common(and inherently inane and ludicrous) arguments that Christians use to get God "off the hook" to keep him from appearing as I have described.ARGUMENT 1)"God doesn't send anyone to Hell, they put themseles there!": Okay, so you're saying that if a person who dies "in their sins" stands before God and takes a good hard look at Hell, that he has the option to "decline"? Please! Get real! The Bible clearly states that the lost will be "cast"(the operative word here is "cast", not briskly walked, not gingerly ran, not eagerly waltzed) into the Lake of Fire! Now, lest you accuse me of being obtuse, I do understand what you're endeavoring to say, that being, that if a person "rejects Christ as their Lord and savior, doesn't repent of their sins, yadda, yadda, yadda," they have, by default, chosen of their own free will to go to Hell. The flaw in this "defense" is that it is a twist on the warnings that Draconian tyrants, emperors, and dictators have given their subjects since time immemorial. That as long as you play the game by their rules, they won't subject you to unspeakable torture! However, it doesn't make Hell one degree cooler whether or not God decides or the "sinners" decide where they spend eternity. It is still a morally unconscionable Draconian punishment. It's analogous to saying that if a father decides to allow his child to voluntarily dive into a shark-infested pool as a self-inflicted punishment for "wrong-doing", that gets dear old Dad "off the hook".ARGUMENT 2) "The Lake of Fire was designed and prepared for the Devil and his angels, not people." Okay, but regardless, God intends to throw the lost into it. It may not "originally" have been meant for people, but God, in his infinite wisdom and mercy, has decided to take "the more, the merrier" approach, and use it as the primary method of eternal punishment for sinners. He has therefore, by default, designed it for both Devils and people.

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very good. The questioin I ask to those who say "God doesn't want people to go to hell" is, why do nonbelievers have to suffer in hell? Why is it moral? How is it moral? Just explain to me why God, whether he wants people to go to hell or not, made the rule that says "if you don't believe, you burn?" Free Will is not an answer. Taking away such a penality actually makes the choice free.

For me, it's not so much a judgement of "Crimes," for many christians don't believe God judges people for crimes if one has taken Christ into his heart to suffer for them. No, they are judged only on whether they believe. It doesn't matter what you do. If you've repented and asked Jesus..blah blah, you can be a serial killer.

"ARGUMENT 1)"God doesn't send anyone to Hell, they put themseles there!": Okay, so you're saying that if a person who dies "in their sins" stands before God and takes a good hard look at Hell, that he has the option to "decline"? Please! Get real!"Where your flawed here is that the arguement is that people put themselves there through actions here on earth that are not repented of. No one I know of says you have an option of declining going to hell at the moment of judgement. Judgement day is the day of reckoning for our actions or works wether they be good or bad. Those are things WE do here in this life. God would love for every one to return to him but realizes that some won't choose to follow Christ. The universal laws of Justice require a "payment" be made for our sins. Christ made that payment when he suffered in the garden of gethsemene(however you spell that, I didn't look it up) if we repent of our sins then they are removed from us through Christ. If we don't repent of our sins then we ourselves must pay that price. The mercy is allowing that sin to be paid for by someone else so we don't have to go through the suffering. So if a non-believer lives a moral good "Boyscout" life there is no reason to believe that they would go to hell just for not beliving. It has to do with how we live. I understand why you feel the way you do. No one would choose that kind of eternity. You are talking about universal laws that even the all powerful one has to obey, Justice. We live by rules and codes of behavior in every aspoect of our life, work, play, neighbor, ect. Work has rules, if I decide to walk up to some woman at work and grab her ass I'm looking for a new job, cast out of work. Now of coarse the boss knew someone would do this, he made the rule, but still sends me packing. Is it his fault or mine? I didn't follow the rule, I made the mistake, I get the punishment. This isn't comparable to what you are talking about but a scenario to explain my defense that we do choose our eternity by following Christ or not. There are consequences for every action, both good and bad, the difference is instead of being sent packing we have te opportunity to repent and try again and again until we get it right. Thats mercy.I'm begining to think that handicap sign by the word verification was meant for me, lol!

Desolate-Paladin,I debated whether or not to respond, but I felt I must. I am sure you have heard a lot of what I am about to say.

First, your analogy is flawed because you have not included all possible alternatives--for instance, God may also be benevolent, or He may just be one of many gods.

Furthermore, you have nor proven your own conclusion that God is indeed a sadistic monster rather than any of the other options.

The analogy is consistent, first, because the girl has not sinned against the judge personally, but rather he is an objective bystander who is determining her culpability, whereas God as judge is the one who has been directly wronged by those He is judging.

Second, you will say, "God is still unjust. How is 'mouthing off' or masturbating sin against God. I am sure we will disagree, but God created the universe and everything is His. Furthermore, He is the most valuable and praise worthy person in the Universe. She has devalued what is most valuable and valued what is least valuable. So her sins are more than just petty misdeeds. Also, if she just sinned twice or three times a day for her younger life than that would still add up to an almost unnumerable amount of misdeeds against God.

Third, no one will be saved by mouthing the sinner's prayer--no prayer saves--only trust in Christ will. And I would also echo your confusion and disgust in what is called "the age of accountability." All of us are born sinners and are condemned from the outset. Not I am sure you will raise objections to that as well. But given the opportunity every single one of us would have made the same choice Adam and Eve made. Want proof? Each and every day we are given the opportunity to value God and give Him glory and instead we heap up glory for ourselves and try to be satisfied with masturbation, lying, et al. No one is perfect and every one (figuratively) repeats the original sin every day.

The difference again between rulers making people play by their game is extent. God is the sovereign and He created everything. He has the owner's perogative. Plus again He is the most valuable person in the universe. God is gracious in not immediately condemning you and I to Hell the minute we first sin. One sin would be enough.

However, your argument that if someone were to call out for grace in Hell they would not receive it. One conjecture deserves another. I do not believe a single person will cry out for mercy in Hell. They will be hardened in his/her sin and will only curse and further justify the punishment.

Last, this punishment is just because Christ Himself experience separation from God on the cross. Therefore, those who reject Christ are ultimately rejecting God's rightful glory but Christ's suffering as well. He was our substitute. I wrote an article about the pain inflicted on Christ here. Take a look if you'd like.

I appreciate your thoughts--it makes one think. But I believe (just as you might say my Christian beliefs blind me) your belief and possible anger(?) at God might be blinding you as well.

Matthew, if you honestly think telling a white lie or ripping off a cookie from the cookie jar warrants being thrown into a never-ending lake of fire, I "pray"(excuse the ironic statement) you are never allowed into the judicial system. If you sincerely believe that, you don't breathe the same air or live in the same universe as the rest of us. Essentially, your argument is that God is God, and you can do what he jolly well pleases. You are correct, but my response is that "might doesn't make right!" and God cannot employ a double-standard when he admonishes mankind to be merciful,loving, and forgiving when he, in turn, is going to throw adolescents into fire!

AS far as your contention that the lost in Hell will be so hardened that they will arrogantly bite their lower lips and not beg for mercy, uhhhh, excuse me, how the HECK would you know that?? Besides, I thought the Bible said there would be "wailing and gnashing of teeth"!!

Would you like to know why you WANT to believe that? A high school psychology student could point it out. Sub-consciously, you know that you would be devastated emotionally if you heard people, regardless of their misdeeds, in fire screaming for mercy. So, if those people that God, in his "infinite mercy" threw into this barbecue pit, arrogantly refuse to ask for mercy, it "soothes" your conscience and gets God "off the hook". You can convince yourself they deserved this punishment. Regardless, your contention is "bovine feces!" To suggest that a person can exist in fire without screaming at the top of his/her lungs insults Forest Gump's intelligence, let alone intelligent, ratiional people. According to your "Unholy Bible",ANY adult who fails to accept Christ and repent is cordially invited to this eternal "weinie roast" as the main course! In essence, the mentally retarded and mentally ill whose minds cannot fully grasp right and wrong are not "off the hook". Tell me, Matthew, will you defend this monstrous God you worship when he throws adults with Down's syndrome into Fire eternally??

Desolate-Paladin,Again you have missed the point. You will call it unjust, but we are all condemned in Adam and those sins just confirm that our condemnation is just. No just commits one or two sins..or only stealing a cookie from a cookie jar.

Again you analogy fails because God is a judge and the One sinned against.

Further, I did not say people would not cry out in Hell. What I said was the people would not cry out for mercy. I think I made it clear that was clearly conjecture--just as saying someone will cry out for mercy is. Either way...God is just.

Furthermore, the Bible does not speak directly towards the death of children and mentally retarded or the likewise mentally ill. However, most conservative Christian theologians would suggest these people would be in Heaven. God would be equally just in sending these people to Hell because they are condemned in Adam and confirmed in their own sin. However, the Bible talks about God's love for children (a lot of mentally ill have the capacity of children) and hints around that possibly children will also be saved by God's grace. God can work his saving grace in a child's heart and mentally retarded person's heart just as he can anyone.

You have not really answered logically or coherently most of my objections. You have merely ranted about what you believe.

You have attempted to make God unjust by using absurd analogies and faulty reasoning. I would be interested in discussing this further if you would answer each of my points above. Thank you so far for the kind responses!

"Desolate-Paladin,Again you have missed the point.MY RESPONSE TO MATTHEW:

No, Sir, I HAVE NOT Missed the point! The point is that you maintain that because of Adam's sin, people born thousands of years in the future deserve Hell for no other reason than because they are of Adam's seed!This is justice?? Also, as far as your contention that my arguments are void of logic, uhhhhhhh, and your's aren't either?? We're debating religious dogma ,doctrines, and values. Logic doesn't come into play here, but rather subjective values and personal philosophical beliefs and convictions!

DP:Okay, you say God is just? PROVE IT EMPIRICALLY! This is a matter of subjective opinion. Your contention is that God is just for no other reason than because he is God? This is "logical"? Listen, if you SINCERELY want to believe that a God who can throw a terrified adolescent girl into eternal fire whose misdeeds IN MY OPINION (The operative words here being "IN MY OPINION") are petty, then feel free to believe that! That is your inalienable right in this country! I simply maintain that a God who would do that is a "Sadistic Monster" based on MY PERSONAL value system, beliefs, and convictions and those of MOST decent civilized people!

MATTHEW:"Again your analogy fails because God is a judge and the One sinned against."

DP: So you're saying that throwing people into fire is just because God is the one sinned against?Please explain your "logic"

MATTHEW:"Further, I did not say people would not cry out in Hell. What I said was the people would not cry out for mercy. I think I made it clear that was clearly conjecture--just as saying someone will cry out for mercy is. Either way...God is just."

DP:Once again, HOW IS GOD JUST EITHER WAY?? PROVE IT!!

MATTHEW:"Furthermore, the Bible does not speak directly towards the death of children and mentally retarded or the likewise mentally ill. However, most conservative Christian theologians would suggest these people would be in Heaven. God would be equally just in sending these people to Hell because they are condemned in Adam and confirmed in their own sin."

DP:JESUS FREAKING CHRIST!! You HONESTLY believe that God is justified in throwing the mentally retarded and mentally ill into eternal fire FOR NO OTHER REASON than because of their ancestry??? Because of being born human, something they were given no choice in?? And you call me illogical and incoherent??You are PSYCHOTIC!!

MATTHEW: "However, the Bible talks about God's love for children (a lot of mentally ill have the capacity of children) and hints around that possibly children will also be saved by God's grace. God can work his saving grace in a child's heart and mentally retarded person's heart just as he can anyone."

DP:Geeeeee, that's AFWUL decent and WHITE of God, considering that the Son of a Bitch is responsible for their condition in the FIRST PLACE!!

MATTHEW:"You Second, you will say, "God is still unjust. How is 'mouthing off' or masturbating sin against God. I am sure we will disagree, but God created the universe and everything is His."

DP:I don't GIVE A RIP if he created everything AND owns EVERYTHING. That doesn't give hm the right(IN MY OPINION) to be a merciless tyrant! I may OWN a dog, but does that give me the right to throw him into the fireplace if he pisses on the carpet??

MATTHEW:" Furthermore, He is the most valuable and praise worthy person in the Universe."

DP:This is YOUR OPININION, MATTHEW! In my opinion, I wouldn't PISS on God if the Bastard walked by me on fire, let alone praise him!!

MATTHEW:" She has devalued what is most valuable and valued what is least valuable. So her sins are more than just petty misdeeds. Also, if she just sinned twice or three times a day for her younger life than that would still add up to an almost unnumerable amount of misdeeds against God."

DP:(SIGGGGGHHHHHHH) So you're saying that if all she has done is masturbate 3 times a week, or been disrespectful to parents,3 times a week, for say, 5 years, THAT WARRANTS ETERNAL INCINERATION???? Boy, tell me that God isn't a spiteful, vindictive Bastard!!!

MATTHEW:You have not really answered logically or coherently most of my objections. You have merely ranted about what you believe."

DP:And you HAVE demonstrated logic and coherent thought, Matthew?? How long have you been sniffing spray paint?? Also, you have done no differently!! You may be less emotional than I am, but all you have done SO FAR is spout your personal beliefs, as I have done!

MATTHEW:"You have attempted to make God unjust by using absurd analogies and faulty reasoning."

DP:What's so absurd about my analogies?? PROVE CONCLUSIVELY that they are absurd, Matthew,and PROVE CONCLUSIVELY that my reasoning is faulty! Otherwise, all you have done is made absolutist statements and subjective opinions based on your arbitrary religious belief system! As we said in my Army days, "opinions are like assholes, we all have one!"

MATTHEW: I would be interested in discussing this further if you would answer each of my points above. Thank you so far for the kind response!

See, every time we take another bite off that Tree Of Knowledgeof Good and Evil, we take another stab in the dark at what is good, and what is evil. GOD knows what is good, and what is evil. People know what's in their own self-interest. Self is good, according to people. Being selfish was once a sin. Now it's a way of life.

If you see GOD as an angry tyrant, that is who GOD is to you. From your own flawed point of view. Sometimes GOD goes to war. Sometimes GOD declares peace.Who are we to judge GOD? We are only the dreamers of the dream. We are not masters of the universe. Aristotle said that man is the measure of all things. Plato disagreed, and pointed to GOD.

It's all a matter of where you start out. You can pretend you are The King. Or you can acknowledge that you are not. It's really that simple.

And you have the power to be The King. In your own, grand illusion. Jesus is there, reminding you that your fine garments are invisible. That's the reality of it all.

i'm a christian, but i don't believe 2 things which seem to be implied by u, DP:1. i don't believe that ppl are sent to heaven/hell based on whether they 'mouthed out' the sinners' prayer.2. i don't believe that hell is literally flames.

let me expand on 1:i believe that ppl are sent to heaven/hell based on whether the sum total of their choices in life reject or accept God.

let me expand on 2:flames give off light, yet the bible describes hell as a place of darkness. therefore, i submit that all descriptions of hell as fiery and wormy and etc are metaphorical. hell is a place of suffering, the exact nature of which we can't be sure of.

but i think that basically hell is suffering because hell is separation from God. separation from the Source of all life, goodness, meaning, joy, etc etc. that has to suck. but if the sum total of a persons' life choices reject God, how can He force the person to spend eternity with Him? therefore to respect the person's choice, there is no alternative but an eternity without God. which Christians call hell.

what do you think? does this make more sense than the concepts of hell and salvation as you wrote them, DP?

I agree with you. God is a piece of shit. These so called christians need to grow enough balls to say the truth, and the truth is "god belongs in hell much more than I do". FUCK that sadistic bastard!!!!

God on Judgement Day loses all his power. Is he still good and perfect and right no matter what he does and says?

Even though might (power) does not mean right, because of God's might, Christians are too afraid to admit God is not right. Is George Bush right because he has the power to do what he does? Was Hitler right to do what he did coz he had the power to do it? Was Saddam Huessein right to do what he did coz of the power he had to do it? So then why is God right to torture people forever coz of the power to do so? He is not right.

As John Dalberg-Acton once said, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

And so God with absolute power is completely corrupted as can be seen in the Bible. Serial killers and rapists can have unimaginable eternal pleasure while good people who did wrong things unkowingly or were born in the wrong religion will be tortured beyond all rational understanding forever.

Keep in mind I am speaking against christians and their belief about God, so non-christians who believe in God dont start attacking me Im not speaking against God, just the way christians believe in God. since i dont believe God is anything like that. I believe God is good.

If God is all-powerful....why could he not control Satan? Or any of the 'fallen' angels if you will......why did he allow incest, but now says it is wrong (or at least so the church says). why did he allow adultery & polygomy but now it is wrong morally (or so the church says)? There are too many questions like this that remain unanswered.....well its because he is the biggest hipocrit ever!!!!

This discussion seems to have centered on whether Hell as a place of eternal torment is compatible with an all-loving and all-merciful God. What about the similar problem with the many old Testament verses that seem to indicate that God condoned, encouraged, or ordered things that if done by a human, would be described as monstrous and sadistic, including the rape, pilaging, slavery, or even mass murder of men, women, children, babies and animals? I trust I don't have to cite specific verses. I for one don't see how these are reconcilable with an all loving God, or love in any sense. The claim that its a mystery seems very unsatisfying. I can accept myteries that involve things that are simply profound or hard to understand, but not ones that seem nonsensical and opposed to logic and common sense. An example would be the difference between grasping that E=mC squared, and being told 2 + 2 = 5. Reconciling a loving God with eternal torment or the mass murder of innocent babies and children seems more like the latter than the former. Please don't tell us that no one is innocent due to "original sin"; that just worsens the apparent injustice.

Seihjin wrote "i think that basically hell is suffering because hell is separation from God. separation from the Source of all life, goodness, meaning, joy, etc etc. that has to suck. but if the sum total of a persons' life choices reject God, how can He force the person to spend eternity with Him? therefore to respect the person's choice, there is no alternative but an eternity without God. which Christians call hell.what do you think?

Sorry, but I think this is very illogical. First, even if Hell is just "separation from God" (a common modern cliche Christians use when confronted with the Hell dilemna) why would separation necessarily entail such suffering? Supposedly nonbelievers are already separated from God on earth, and don't suffer on average more than believers. Moreover, if any kind of Hell was suffering, and lasted forever, it would be more merciful for God to simply destroy the person, or to send him to a spiritual place no worse than his earthly existence, or any number of other alternatives. To suggest God has "no choice" in the matter is in utter conflict with the idea that he is all powerful. To suggest any choice he has must entail suffering for nonbelieves is in conflict with the concept of an all loving God. If I and other humans can think of non-suffering fates for nonbelievers, certainly God can.After all, he is supposed to be MORE loving than us, and more merciful. Yet most of us would not send the adolescent in question to 10 years of prison, let alone death by fire or an eternity of suffering. Anyway you slice it, the traditional idea of Hell doesn't add up. I once tried to defend such things myself, but finally got the nerve to face what I knew deep down all along, that the idea of eternal torment was not compatible with love.

Its funny how a shift in one's perspective can turn your thinking around 180 degrees. As a former fundy, I used to spout the same BS about God being "just" to send people to eternal torment, that Hell is something sinners choose, bla bla. Deep down I knew it didn't make sense and made God a hypocritical monster. It also made no sense to me that God asks US to forgive each other whether we repent or not, and yet unless we repent to him, we're toast. To the guy who claimed those in hell would not cry for mercy, not according to the Bible you profess is so infallible. In the parable Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus which according to many refers to hell, the rich man begs for even a drop of water, which is withheld.Another interesting aspect of the parable is that the rich man actually cares enough about his brothers to beg for someone to go warn them. If those in hell are so selfish and incorigible as many claim, why was this man concerned for his brothers? Like so many things in the Bible, it doesn't make sense. I for one am ashamed that for so long I denied or rationalized the problems, but they kept eating at my own conscience. I finally had to face the truth. Much of the Bible, especially the OT, is simply not consistent with basic ethics or even other parts of the Bible. I did not abandon my faith because I wanted to live as a hedonist, as many Christians imply nonbelievers want to do, but quite the contrary, becausemy conscience that told me, and should tell you, that eternal torment, genocide, infanticide, rape, slavery, and pilaging--all things the Bible has God condoning or ordering, are in no way consistent with love. As far as all those calling God a "sadistic bastard"... I supposed if the God of the OT existed and did the things attributed to him, that would be an accurate term. But it seems more reasonable to conclude that the OT is not the infallible word of God, but a collection of human accounts and musing reflecting archaic and ofteh barbaric values.

I think people are mixing up God(prime creator) with other entities that are lesser gods.The God force or God mind being the main source of all that exists.The simplistic views of Christians& Jews are creating GOD in their OWNimage & by doing this confusing themselves & others through out history. Why else would there be so many variations & versions of each?Until people really KNOW what's going on & who the players are,good& bad,I'd strongly suggest living in peace with each other...No matter what you believe in! Just look at the state this world is in!If that doesn't signify mass confusion,then what does? Just know one thing as fact...there are many different entities & beings that exist,some good,some bad & if you think your above be tricked or fooled... Boy are u mistaken. If it helps anyone, here's a hint! Nothing good will ever ask or want you to hurt ANYTHING or ANYONE! Period! What kind of God needs books or text to interact with us when it's already there, written in our hearts.

Judeo Christian God is obviously a vain,(worship me), arrogant(do as I say),evil(if you don't off to hell you go) bastard.The one thing I find amusing is that anyone would think that heaven and hell are not the same thing.It appears to me that the universe is fundamentally evil place, and what does that tell you of the nature of God?disagree? turn on the news and tell me the world is not evil.God is the Devil,the greatest con the devil pulled off was not in making us believe he did not exist, but that he was a kindly forgiving God that gave a shit.I believe that if there is an afterlife,everybody is going to hell, no exceptions,no matter how good or evil you were,no good,no justice, no elysian fields for the faithful, just more of the same old pain and suffering for eternity,all because God/Devil is a cruel and heartless bastard that cares about you, the same way you care about a microbe.

birdgod guy: Ah, but if you go off into your corner, you can hardly be part of the discussion, now can you?From your secret corner, you say:"Those who would paint God as sadistic monster need realize their precarious position. The only impediment to a sinner being immediately cast into hell is God’s mercy."But if there is no god nor any hell, there is no precarious position. Are you saying we should beleive ridiculous things out of fear? Sure, that holds water. You can't have the God you claim. The descriptors don't fit. If he is all powerful and kind and loving, he ought to be DOING SOMETHING to fix some things. If he is loving, yet not powerful enough to fix things, he is not powerful enough to for sure damn or save me in the end, so why bother with him now? If he is powerful, then he is not kind or he WOULD be fixing things, so if he is powerful he is mean or uncaring, in which case, again, i need not waste time on him as he can't be trusted. I say there is no god, but if there is, I don't care anymore as he is either not kind, not fair, not interested, or not powerful. therefore, irrelevant to me.

"But if there is no god nor any hell, there is no precarious position. Are you saying we should beleive ridiculous things out of fear? Sure, that holds water."

No, it doesn't hold water, which is why I'm surprised you should mention that. Obviously my post was written given the assumption that there is a god, and that there is a hell. Obviously. And no, I'm certainly not saying that we should believe in ridiculous things out of fear. If there is no God there is obviously no precarious position.

"You can't have the God you claim. The descriptors don't fit. If he is all powerful and kind and loving, he ought to be DOING SOMETHING to fix some things. If he is loving, yet not powerful enough to fix things, he is not powerful enough to for sure damn or save me in the end, so why bother with him now? If he is powerful, then he is not kind or he WOULD be fixing things, so if he is powerful he is mean or uncaring, in which case, again, i need not waste time on him as he can't be trusted."

God will indeed do something about our position, didn't you read my post??? Furthermore, I see no reason why God should fix things as you suggest. Didn't we chose this mess for ourselves? And last I checked we're choosing the same every day. What you're advocating is that God take away our free will, which really doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me. Can't you see that if God fixed everything on this earth we'd just continue to mess it up? "That which has been is what will be, that which is done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:9) We've dug ourselves into a hole through sin, and there's only one thing (aside from taking away free will) God could possibly do about it...actually something he's already done. I think you know what that is.

Or: "free will" There are tons of things that cause suffering that are NOT due to our choice, natural disasters that we call 'act of God' by the way and mean things done by a single person - God could intervene if he gave a rat's patootie in those things and not harm our general free will - you are trying to combine your notion that we are horrible sinners that need God to save us in the end with him leaving us alone to perserve free will, which are not related - but you have your mind made up and will continue to contort the logic to save your faith so anything I say is pointless.

God could certainly intervene if he so desired, yet He choses not to. That says nothing as to whether God exists, does not exist, or doesn't care. Paul says in Romans 9:12 "Does not the potter have power over the clay...?"

God, of course, sees beyond death and is not confined to a temporal perspective so there is no reason He should subject His judgment to our opinion. Everyone will die nevertheless, when has always been up to God.

i used to be a believer until i was influenced by people of faith.i have 2 question for all you believers. does god own the universe or are all his or her possessions held in common? [acts 2:44] and are god's parents on the old age pension yet? so you think these questions are silly,just ask a believer how to rectify global warming if you want to hear something silly.

yes, the reason there is absolutely no evidence on earth for the existence of god is because god chooses to remain hidden from us. how conveeeeenient. that there is no evidence whatsoeveratall does not mean there is no god, it just means god is hiding. for his own reasons. uh huh. maybe he is playing poker with the easter bunny, santa, and zues and is too busy to intervene to save us from natural disasters . . . yeah, that's it. oh, am i mocking now? sorry. oh, was i lying there? yep. but god is busy raising the easter bunny's bet so he won't strike me with lightning for it.

I do believe there is a god ( no capitalization for a reason ). I believe that if you indeed believe in his son etc that you will be continually tortured and screwed with as a "test"...if as the "father" of man god does this then I have no use for him...if I were to do this type of thing to any of my children I would be rightfully labeled as a monster and they would be taken away from me...but "god" does it and it makes it ok...because he only wants the best souls around him and not ones that might crack under pressure or some silly ass notion like that. the idea that if god allowed his child to jump into a shark tank that since they chose to do so lets him off the hook??? BS!!! as a father it is my JOB and my DUTY to protect my kids when they are doing something that could cause them harm...if I stood before a judge on this earth and tried to get "off the hook" by saying well I saw them getting ready to jump into a tank filled with man eating sharks...and I said no you shouldn't do that...but didn't do anything to STOP them the judge would lock me up and rightfully so! and then go way back in time to the Roman days....because of their beliefs God either made happen or allowed to happen his faithful believers to be eaten alive...thats right EATEN ALIVE by friggin lions and bears for others entertainment. Not once is it recorded where god stepped in and stopped it...not once. oh you hear about how god killed masses of people that pissed him off for on reason or another....an entire army of Egyptians...Muslims...etc. not to mention a few million of his " chosen people during WW2... Yes god exists, he has a son...and if your really lucky they will leave you the hell alone.

I love how the Christians argue until they are put in their place and have no more programmed answers, and then they simply retreat. Arguing with believers is like arguing with someone who believes magic is real, "No! The magician made a ball appear in his hand, it wasn't there a second ago, so it has to be magic I saw it withy own eyes! Yet somehow I'm more inclined to believe in magic than god because you can actually witness the magician making something appear to vanish or appear out of thin air, that's more proof than a collection of short stories that were probably originally written as a great fiction book. (bible/book of mormon also) Before someone else killed the author and marketed the book as his own taken directly from the word of god to control billions of people for personal gain.