I received my sheeter today and all I can say is I think this is the golden ticket! 3/4 HP and 3.5" rollers seems to have plenty of umpff to push a low hydration dough. I made a test dough tonight without the dry milk since I am waiting for that to be delivered. I will know in a few hours how well it performs. This already seems like quite a different process than using a rolling pin.

Regarding the Shakeys recipe what do you think about adding straight malted milk for getting that yeasty flavor profile? I am sure a lot of the flavor development will come from being in the cooler overnight, but I am wondering just how much contribution to the profile comes from scrap pieces of dough. Those must be some highly flavored bits in there. I can't keep a "mother dough" of scraps going indefinitely or else I would want to make pizza every night!

Dan:

I hear what you are saying about the malted milk and the 'yeasty flavor'. I have a tendency to doubt if that will help a lot, but the only sure way to know is to try it. One thing I have been finding in my experiments is the fat (shortening) plays such a key role. I am trying a new recipe tonight with 3.5% shortening (Crisco) and 42% hydration. I noticed just by removing the dough from the food processor (~5-6 minutes) that it was warm and quite malleable, which makes up for the low hydration instead of leaving it in a pile of dry crumbs. After an overnight in the fridge, I am going to try this out tonight on a pizza stone in my wimpy oven and see how it goes (no sheeter - lots of rolling and folding). I was going to try putting it on my 2stone grill, but we're experiencing too much spring rain.

I also hear you about the dough scraps. We home bakers don't have the luxury of making a pizza or 2 every night (my wife would let me have it with both barrels for one thing).

I made the RT clone that Peter put out there in the RT part III thread for the first few attempts with my sheeter. I made one dough with two different paths. First I made the dough, let it rest, then I sheeted half of it, cut my dough round and put it in the cooler overnight. The second half was put in the cooler overnight, allowed to warm up for an hour, then sheeted and cut just before cooking. Interestingly this second half gave more of a layered and bubbly crust. The first one was less bubbly, but it did have one thing going for it, BLISTERS on the bottom just like RT! Now if I could just take the best of both, I'll have a good starting point for my crust. I got a little carried away with the thickness being too thin. Going to the sheeter from the rolling pin I must say my thoughts about this have been correct all along. Not only is it easy to produce a layered, bubbly crust, but it works for a wide range of dough and is almost fool proof. I began thinking about this more in terms of the workers at Shakeys and RT, I mean most of these folks are High School kids and I doubt the dough was something that was easily ruined by not following some strict protocol. Nothing against the workers of these places, I just realize now with a sheeter it's very difficult to screw this up unless you pass it 20 times or something.

I didn't take any photos because it was just an impromptu dough to see if the sheeter really was that easy to produce the desired cracker texture. I am happy to report, YES, it was quite easy and it was the missing link.

Of the Flour, use 5 grams of Harina Preparada to make the final 238 g. This represents ~2% of the overall contribution by weight.

The dough was cut in a circle and the scraps were saved this time (we'll see if I have time to use them again).The final result was very similar to what I have achieved before, so no pics this time. I thought it was quite good, but still not as good as Shakey's.

I think I am going to go back and use a previous recipe I tried before using a 2:1 ratio of regular flour to harina preparada. I found the results of that experiment to be closer. I think part of the reason for that is the dough conditioners that come in that flour. That is one thing the Shakey's pizza dough flour has that may be hard to precisely duplicate, namely these ingredients:Less than 2 percent:Ammonium sulfate – dough conditioner, yeast food – nitrogen sourceCalcium sulfate – dough conditioner, yeast food – raises pHDextrose – yeast foodSoybean oil – emulsifier, softener, relaxer

I am intrigued by your results with your sheeter and am becoming more of a believer in that a sheeting process is far more important to the final product that I have been giving it credit.

I am intrigued by your comments regarding the "partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil" component of these doughs. I recall back in the first part of this series there was an extensive conversation regarding it. I feel you're on to something here and this is a key ingredient for performance. For one, isn't "partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil " essentially a trans fat product? The reformulated Crisco is <0.5% partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil (trans fat) and now its virtually fully hydrogenated and spiked with palm oils. Searching the trans fat issue I came across a fair amount of literature about most fast food chains struggling to deal with this issue and still achieve the same great taste and performance their products used to carry. A lot of these companies were sued by consumer groups in the past 5 years about using trans fat.

So I guess what I'd like to know is:

1) How do these places get partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil in a dry form to package in their mixes? Can such a powder be purchased retail?

2) If this is indeed a trans-fat, have these companies refomulated their mixes in the past few years? or if not, why haven't some crazy consumer groups sued them like the other fast food places out there?

3) Is lard really a better choice for this ingredient as Peter suggested?

Really got to thank Lydia for the Harina Preparada find. I just think that was brilliant.

Trans fat is labeled as ZERO. So is the mix >0.5% trans fats and labeled as such required by labeling laws or did the mix change since the photo of the bag was posted. I think anything over 0.5% needs to be labeled and anything under can be omitted from the package. 1 slice = 25% RDA of saturated fat!!! Sounds like LARD to me!

I did some researching and found that the FDA labeling law for trans fats is 0.5g/serving or more = needs to be labeled, but if its less than that, they can report trans fats as 0. I don't think this applies to commercial products because they are typically labeled for transport only and not for public information since they are not supposed to be seen by the public.

In terms of "partially hydrogenated oils" this is basically a method to make oils solid at room temperature. Whether cis or trans fat does not matter. So I think what we're after is a solid fat at room temperature, lard, crisco, margarine, butter, etc. I came across a lot of information talking about solid oils improving shelf life of products, which is why the baking industry uses them so much. Apparently liquid oil can go rancid. I never really thought about that. Anyway, I have been trying to find more information about differences in baking performace. Certainly baked products with butter do not perform the same as products with old school Crisco. Is it because the melting temperature of the solid? The amount of trans fat? The amount of saturated fat? I need to do more research on this. However I can say that most partially hydrogenated oils are racemic mixtures of all sorts of compounds, cis, trans, free radicals, etc. Either the product has these trans fats in them less than 0.5g/serving, or they are somehow separating out the trans fats. I don't know if this is doable at an industrial scale because the process is somewhat difficult. Cis and trans molecules can have the same molecular weight, they just differ in sterochemistry. Which is very difficult to separate. Looking at the nutrition label, it looks like they are just saturating the molecules more to reduce the likelihood of partially hydrogenated oils being in the mixture. Both Shakey's and RT pizza are very high in saturated fat.

I did not know Shakey's was seeing a resurgence with new fonts! Anyone have any feedback on the Shakey's of old vs. the new restaurants out there? Better? worse? just different? It's difficult to make these comparisions in retrospect.

As an aside, I like your recent information on the trans- versus cis- fat dilemma. I agree that separating the two would seem to be an added process that would add more time and cost to delivering the final product. I can only guess at this point that manufacturers are finding a new source of fat (vegetable vs. animal?). One reason I say this is I know in the pharmaceutical industry a common inactive ingredient in medications is magnesium stearate which has traditionally come from animal sources (bovine or porcine), but in more recent years manufacturers have been receiving Mg stearate from suppliers who obtain it from vegetable sources.

I just pulled the trigger on a dough sheeter! Finally broke down and decided it was the missing piece to the ultimate crust I am after. (Not to mention it's use in making ravioli much easier!) I got a Somerset CDR-500 off ebay for $850 plus shipping. I have looked at these for quite some time and I think that is a good deal. I can't wait to try the RT clone and Shakey's recipes on this baby.

This obsession is starting to get a little bigger...

$850! that's nuts! But then again, I have no clue as to the general cost of these things. Wow I guess I'm luck i'm not addicted to thin crust yet...

$850! that's nuts! But then again, I have no clue as to the general cost of these things. Wow I guess I'm luck i'm not addicted to thin crust yet...

I agree it sounds crazy, however the same unit new or even refurbed is in the 2-3K range. I also cannot just go down the street and buy this style. The nearest laminated crust to me would be Spokane, WA either Shakey's or Round Table and that's 300+ miles away. Besides, I am Italian and I am always looking to sheet dough. I just made some fresh pasta tonight in about 10 minutes. For anyone looking to buy one, the "on the fly" adjustment handle is a MUST! If I had a commercial operation I could see using the ones that are more difficult to adjust, but the somerset ones are very slick in this regard.

$850/~$20 per pie = 42.5 pies. Sad to say I probably eat more than that in a year.

$850 for a sheeter is a steal. You will have it a lifetime and if ever decide to sell it, you will receive at least $850.

I just ate at a place in Elk Grove CA that makes its own dough, scales dough balls, and then runs them through the sheeter once. Pretty typical. Same style all over America. Laminating the dough would have been more work. But the crust would not come out as a tasty sponge.

Congratulations on the sheeter. Meanwhile I will have to make do with my Atlas pasta roller. It works but not like the real thing.$850 is worth every penny.

I found a mention on one of the pizza crust premix vendor's sites that the shelf life of premix with yeast is two months and that of premix without yeast is six months. Could they have a diffferent formulation for those outlying Shakey's in Hawaii, Alabama, etc?

I am resurrecting this thread to continue the "crust" conversation that has recently transpired in the Shakey's Sauce thread found here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,518.0.html this is strictly for historical purposes so that the conversation stays somewhat linear and on topic. Tips hat to the admins

Lightmeter (and Elsegundo wherever you are), are true assets to our understanding of the original Shakey's pizza. Thanks for all your input.

Lightmeter, since you worked at Shakey's previously I'd like to ask you some questions about the scraps during sheeting. Were the scraps in this tub just allowed to ferment at room temperature most of the day? Then used the next morning? I know you mentioned they were thrown out at the end of the day, but when were they generated, and when were they used? Was it just one roll to the next in the morning only? Or would these be used again at night? I assume the dough was made the night before?

Also the way you describe it, there was no "mother scrap dough" that was continually used and replenished. Is that safe to say with a high degree of certainty? Thanks again!

Were the scraps in this tub just allowed to ferment at room temperature most of the day? Then used the next morning? I know you mentioned they were thrown out at the end of the day, but when were they generated, and when were they used? Was it just one roll to the next in the morning only? Or would these be used again at night? I assume the dough was made the night before?

Also the way you describe it, there was no "mother scrap dough" that was continually used and replenished. Is that safe to say with a high degree of certainty? Thanks again!

Yes, scraps were allowed to ferment at room temperature for the day. Scraps were heaped into a pile in the corner of the cutting bench. They certainly did some additional rising, but mostly it was the unused ones at the bottom of the pile that did the rising, and they were also the most likely candidates to be left over and tossed at the end of the shift. It was an imperfect process. A Conscientious operator would grab evenly from the pile for each roll, trying to maximize scrap use, but mostly we were lazy kids and grabbed a hand-full of the freshest scraps on top, just-made from the previous cuttings. On a day where the owner was present or a manager was bellowing waste, we’d force ourselves to use all the scraps, but it also forced some undesirable characteristics in ways that operators didn’t like. There was some personal pride in nice, even, velvety thin rolls which made cutting and stacking easier.

Scraps were used as we generated them. Once the next loaf was removed from a bus tub, ready to roll, it would go through the sheeter a time or two. Then the operator would grab a hand-full of scraps and plop them onto the dough, on the sheeter. The operator overlapped 1/3 of the fresh dough from the front and from the back, tucking the scraps in where able. Then the new combined loaf was rotated 90 degrees and run through the sheeter a few more times until about three times the width of the belt. Then, once more, the entire loaf would again be folded into thirds (now again almost as wide as the belt). This was rolled to completion leaving even width and finished ends.

There was no “mother scrap dough” that cycled day after day. By that I’m guessing you may be looking for a friendship dough flavor that Shakey’s captured in a self replenishing starter, kind of like a poolish. Nope, not here.

The objective was to limit scrap to 10% by loaf, and then incorporate 10% scrap into each successive loaf. More realistically, we probably generated 3% more scrap in each roll than we used, leaving about a bus tub at the end of the shift. Although I don’t entirely object to the notion that some stores saved the last scraps and used them again the next day, it would only be 10%, the same amount of reuse that every other loaf should get.

The craggy edges could be a result of too much sheeter pressure. The small sheeter displayed in the vid is a distant cousin to the monster equipment we used in the Rockville store which had moving belts on either side of the main rollers, was reversible, and was wider. We often rolled two bus tubs of dough at a time (here's a current eBay posting http://www.ebay.com/itm/Seewer-Rondo-Commercial-Conveyor-Reversible-Bakery-Dough-Sheeter-Model-SSO63-/160738888720?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256cc8cc10). The Rockville sheeter could narrow the roller gaps one click at a time – very precise. When in a hurry, we could cheat and jump ahead a few clicks to shorten the number of passes but, if we cheated too much, and went too narrow too fast, we’d end up with craggy edges like in the video. If the owner ever caught us abusing the sheeter (as in overloading the motor or stripping gears), we had standing orders that we were on the hook to buy two plane tickets to California to get it repaired. One ticket for the cook and one for the sheeter. It was very expensive equipment. Then again, what do kids care when the party was waiting for us in the parking lot. We slammed gears, choked the rollers and make that monster work.

Perhaps the smaller sheeter in the vid doesn’t allow small enough clicks per pass and so creates the craggy edges. It’s no loss in dough quality, but potentially burns out an expensive motor prematurely. Excessive addition of scraps or overly dry scraps also creates a craggy edge.

I don’t think the craggy edge is from a “dry” dough. In fact, the moisture in our dough revealed itself in one very telling way. After proofing in the cooler for a day, we’d pull bus tubs of dough from the cooler to roll and find that the dough had risen again to the full extents of the bus tub volume. It was very wet, full of gas, sticky and there was literally condensation dripping from the inside lid of the bus tub. A dusting of flour and a push to deflate the loaf sent it on its first pass through the sheeter.

Also, using a knife to the cut around the template seems as reasonable as using the painters putty knife we used, other than we cut on a big butcher block table, not a stainless bench as in the vid. Same result it seems.

Lastly, we used deck ovens, not conveyor and so, did anyone know what a pizza screen was in 1975? I sure didn’t.

Regarding the scraps, it has been suggested that this was done to generate a "signature flavor" of the product but your comments really suggest that this is none other than trying to increase profit margins. I suppose one could argue that scraps which fermented all day may impart a stronger flavor to the finished doughs made later in the day, but it seems circumstance if the real reason for re-rolling the dough of scraps is to raise profit margins.

It would seem then that most of the flavor of this style comes from the yeast, or some special malted flour in the mix. Given your description of the amount of gas and volume of the dough, I am thinking it's the yeast. I haven't come across any flour that imparts that strong of a flavor on a dough. I know the original Shakeys used bricks of fresh compressed yeast. This could really be the source of what made the crust taste so great.

Do you have any recollections of the dough prep? Amount of yeast to flour?

I hope you don't mind me adding a few thoughts to this discussion: First of all, the shaggy appearance from the sheet of dough in the video is due to dryness. Either, the correct amount of water was not added at mixing time, or most likely the flour itself has changed. It is a common occurrence and doesn't affect the quality of the finished product. These are low hydration doughs and changes in flour show up immediately.

Secondly, you can now see from some of the answers former employees are giving that there was a huge consistency problem in procedures (depending on if managers or owners were present). I worked for a company that was an offshoot of Shakeys, and so I'm sure we shared alot of the culture. I'm sorry to say it, dough was left for minimum wage employees to mix and process. The owners knew absolutely nothing about dough except for what they learned in the monkey see, monkey do processes of learning.

For example, in the stores I worked in, one minimum wage employee per day was scheduled to roll dough. A batch of dough mixed from a 50 pound bag of flour took 45 minutes for a fast employee, but usually averaged 60 minutes. This job was done alone. Can you imagine, being 16 years old, and having to roll 4 buckets of dough by yourself??? This is the way things were done in the old days. How long do you think a mixed bucket of dough sat, waiting to be rolled. Do you think any of these employees tried shortcuts or just played around? It was just a job to them.... but in the old days much money was made,even though so many mistakes were made.

Having said that, the truth still remains that when this type of crust is done correctly..it is amazing!!!! But inconsistencies are built into the whole process, which makes this crust hard to do correctly on a very consistent basis.

As for the questions about scrap, here is my take: you can use the lamination process and build a dough with 6 layers and have a beautiful dough,...you can also fold the above dough to form more layers and still have a great dough. As long as you don't overdo the sheeting process, you can make a tender dough. The scraps that you get from cutting skins are in themselves great pieces of dough. By adding them to the next batch, and by not oversheeting, you still come up with an excellent dough. It simply works....you can say you use scraps for the profit margin if you want too, but the fact is, adding scraps makes a great dough. By the way, if you take a pile of scraps and try by using a sheeter to form a sheet to cut skins, you will end up with crap...because they will be overworked and be very tough.

I'm not trying to indict every owner, I know their were careful ambitious ones who watched everything like a hawk, but I think they were the exception, not the rule!!

John your input is always welcomed. I enjoy reading about the experiences and views of other pizza fanatics! Makes me feel like I'm not alone in my dementia. I have never had the opportunity to feel a commercial laminated dough skin so I am going primarily based on my limited experience. My experience in making dough skins were a NY style and that style is a lot more fun to make. I was once one of those minimum laborers you refer to that made batch after batch of dough, albeit for a much lower throughput pizza place. Personally I enjoyed it. I could see it being a pain for this style though.

I have only tested low hydration doughs with my sheeter and as you state it just works. So I never felt the need to try anything higher. That video does portray what looks like a dry dough, but it just performs with a lot of slack. I have never been able to achieve that performance simply by running a lower hydration dough made with just flour and water. In fact, although I get good layering and bubble pockets at my current 48% hydration, the crust layers are dry. They are not soft and tender like a biscuit which is what I recall from the Shakey's style. Lightmeter's comments here about the yeast activity and the amount of water in the tubs does lend some merit that the hydration is higher than it appears. Any results or feedback here you could share? Say more in the 55-65% hydration range? Ever run doughs like that? Would one be able to tell the difference? Or would you suspect that there is some third substance in the premix which is conditioning the dough to perform like this on the sheeter?

I referred to profit margin for the scraps based on Lightmeter's recollection. Without any poolish or "mother" scrap container kept into perpetuity, it just doesn't make sense why this would be done unless it was simply to increase margins. I can get a bubbly laminated crust without it, so I don't think it's really adding to the flavor or texture of the crusts. In fact, their addition might even have a negative effect on the dough since they were limited to making up only 10% of the dough. Lightmeter also mentions them as a source of hard "bits" in the skins. (Another source of inconsistency).

Consistency is a huge problem here I agree. Even with appreciation for all the experiments and variables you test for in your process, I can imagine it's a constant struggle which you've come to know primarily based on "feel" from doing it so many times.

I have only tested low hydration doughs with my sheeter and as you state it just works. So I never felt the need to try anything higher. That video does portray what looks like a dry dough, but it just performs with a lot of slack. I have never been able to achieve that performance simply by running a lower hydration dough made with just flour and water. In fact, although I get good layering and bubble pockets at my current 48% hydration, the crust layers are dry. They are not soft and tender like a biscuit which is what I recall from the Shakey's style. Lightmeter's comments here about the yeast activity and the amount of water in the tubs does lend some merit that the hydration is higher than it appears. Any results or feedback here you could share? Say more in the 55-65% hydration range? Ever run doughs like that? Would one be able to tell the difference? Or would you suspect that there is some third substance in the premix which is conditioning the dough to perform like this on the sheeter?

I referred to profit margin for the scraps based on Lightmeter's recollection. Without any poolish or "mother" scrap container kept into perpetuity, it just doesn't make sense why this would be done unless it was simply to increase margins. I can get a bubbly laminated crust without it, so I don't think it's really adding to the flavor or texture of the crusts. In fact, their addition might even have a negative effect on the dough since they were limited to making up only 10% of the dough. Lightmeter also mentions them as a source of hard "bits" in the skins. (Another source of inconsistency).

Consistency is a huge problem here I agree. Even with appreciation for all the experiments and variables you test for in your process, I can imagine it's a constant struggle which you've come to know primarily based on "feel" from doing it so many times.

DanI use a 36% hydration rate on my dough (I've recently been using 38% because for some reason we always find a difference in our flours when we get into a new crop, and the increase in water seems to help). Even at 36% you get nice even edges on your dough sheets most of the time....sometimes the flour changes on you, and even though you measure everything, the dough comes out drier. It still makes good skins though.

Your description of layers intrigues me...the layers of dough when using lamination are simply the "means" to an end. When I roll a batch of dough, I don't even touch the flour until the very last few passes to get my dough thin enough to cut. Please try this....get the dough you want to sheet, flatten it by hand, and run it through your sheeter as many times as it takes to get it one quarter inch thick. Do not use any flour, unless it starts to stick to your roller and then use the smallest amount to keep it from sticking (ideally you will use none). Now, take your sheet and fold it into 4, or 6 layers (no flour), and sheet it until it gets about one quarter inch thick. If you want to fold your dough in half again (no flour) go ahead, and then sheet this down until it gets one eighth inch thick. Go ahead and very lightly use flour to keep your dough from sticking to the roller. Now, this dough should be ready to cut. By the way, I've made skins that have had 36 layers in them, and they are still tender......this is the reason that the addition of scraps to dough help the dough....you are using perfectly good pieces of laminated dough in addition to your unprocessed piece of dough. If you do the process like I've described, you will see absolutely no layers in your dough...it will look like one piece of dough.

Can you see by reading Lightmeters description, that just throwing the scraps to the side to sit in a pile, that they will dry out and possibly cause hard spots. Although I won't comment on his recollection of this practice...I can tell you what we do. First off, we use two people to roll dough....one person sheets, the other one pulls the sheets, cuts, stacks etc. WE roll five 80 pound buckets of dough per day. We've streamlined the system so that it takes two people 75 minutes to process this much dough. After the first batch of dough is sheeted...the scraps from this batch are added to the second batch...and the scraps from this batch are added to the next batch.......until you are done.....the scraps are always soft and have never sat for more than 2 or 3 minutes....and please believe me, the dough is excellent.

By the way Dan, I started out as one of those minimum wage workers too...and that is why I know from experience what guys like me used to do (just for the fun of it???) when no one was there to watch.