Indeed. Thank you for sharing. I do disagree with Mr. Gellman some, i do think aspects or levels of the U.S. and some other governments have been co-opted by corrupt, ill intentioned, private groups who are collecting massive amounts of information also to see if and when any revolutions and rebels to their ever tightening system of control and manipulation, may arise.

Mr. Gellman admits that he has been naive before regarding the U.S. government prior to seeing some of this leaked info directly. Just because he got some relatively small slices of info about what's really going on, doesn't mean he's got it all and knows the intents behind same. I think there are a lot of basically good and decent people that work for the government, and i think to some extent, even some of the ones higher up, don't fully know what's going on and whose the real power behind the throne.

But really, it's easy to figure out, follow the money, follow the greed, follow the power…to where it's most accumulated at and even made (the monies). Those with the most money and power, have the most invested in keeping this racketeering game of debt going. And while this is basically true, and they like the system as is, they also aren't completely adverse to the idea of collapse either because they figure it would be easier to institute more full control after the common folks are weakened and culled. Much less people to potentially fight if a major revolution and rebellion happened.

It's the same old lord and serf stuff and system over and over again, just this time more sophisticated, hidden (relatively for now), and because of technology and globalization–much harder to concretely fight.

I actually appreciate that Gellman did not attribute ill intent to this collection of data. The possibility is there, but once you speak like that you lose part of the population that would do well to hear this and take it seriously. Take it any further at this point and you are into conspiracies and no longer taken seriously.
What he lined out is enough to raise concern for all of us.

True enough on both points..yet truth is truth, and lessening the extremity of it to make it more appealing to mass consumption…

well we have far too much fast food in the world today as it is. And sooner than later, Ronald McDonald will be knocking at out our doors when he realizes enough people are pissed off about the way things are run (whether they are fully aware or not of how corrupt and gone the system is), and Ronald and his ilk are always in the fear mindset and thus always consider the best defense is a good offense.

What will half and partial truths help then? Who will be ready? Especially if one is laboring under the illusion of, ok, things are bad, but not that bad and we can change things through voting, protests, speaking out, etc, etc.

Sincerely, i hope the best of luck to those folks. But, while in many ways many would label me "liberal", i saw through Obama right from the get go, and i see through the system more and more clearly as time goes on. All the luck in the world won't help people.

A little personal history sort of related to all this. When Obama was first running for office of Presidency, i was involved with an intentional community and briefly lived there. Overwhelmingly the majority of the people that lived there were very "liberal" oriented. I knew a lot of people in that community who worked their butts off in campaigning for Obama. There was so much hope, change was in the air.

Part of me wanted to be hopeful, yet that nagging, quiet intuitive voice that i've learned to listen to more than not, kept telling me, it would be more of the same and it would be sham to deceive people.

So when asked by some members of this intentional community of what i thought and felt about Obama, i felt like i had to relay this, but gently. To say that some were skeptical is an understatement. I tried to keep it generalized and indicated i had nothing against Obama the man and figure head, but that i knew that our government was just far too gone and corrupt and beholden to forces not in the best interest of humanity as a whole, that i had a very, very hard time believing that somebody truly for positive change, someone for humanity as a whole, could get into one of the highest political offices at this point in the game.

So, like i said, i've learned to listen to that quiet and subtle voice of intuition. What i spoke about earlier on this thread, also comes from that same place and again i felt the need to relay it (though not so gently this time).

Justin, your thoughts echo many of my own re: "at this point in the game …"
It's important to remember that Edward Snowden is not the first NSA whistleblower. One of the effects of Snowden's leaks is that it makes us realize previous NSA whistleblowers were telling the truth all along – Russell Tice, William Binney, Thomas Drake. William Binney was a 36-yr employee of the NSA and one of their top people. Russell Tice has said repeatedly that he personally saw the wiretap order for Barrack Obama back in 2004 shortly after Obama made a speech at the Dem convention. He also claims to have seen wiretap orders for Dianne Feinstein and Supreme Court judges. In other words, most if not all of our top officials may be compromised.
All these prior whistleblowers made heroic efforts to go through official legal channels and all had their lives ruined as a result, which is why Snowden had to do it the way he did.
A few weeks after the NSA story broke, someone interviewed some former East German Stasi officers about the NSA. One quote stuck with me: "To think that this information, once collected, will not be used, is the height of naivete."
The NSA uses definitions of terms like "collect" and "target" that are completely at odds with how ordinary people use those terms.
We recently found out that the NSA believed that it had the authority to search the telephone records database in order to obtain the 'reasonable articulable suspicion' required to investigate those numbers. Essentially, they were conducting suspicionless searches to obtain the suspicion the FISA court required to conduct searches.
In addition to Glenn Greenwald, EFF.org is doing great work on this. So is Julian Sanchez of the Cato Institute and Amie Stepanovich at EPIC. Follow them on twitter.
The good thing is now we finally know where we stand and it's much worse than even those who have been following the issue for years could have ever imagined.
"It must be difficult for those who have taken authority as truth rather than truth as authority."

"The good thing is now we finally know where we stand and it's much worse than even those who have been following the issue for years could have ever imagined."

I'm a pretty suspicious guy when it comes to the good intentions of those in power
these days, but even I was stunned to read the article in the Washington Post referenced in the link below. It has to do with NSA sharing the raw personal data of American citizens with a foreign power. This is the most egregious violation of our 4th Amendment rights that I can imagine.

"The good thing is now we finally know where we stand and it's much worse than even those who have been following the issue for years could have ever imagined."

I'm a pretty suspicious guy when it comes to the good intentions of those in power
these days, but even I was stunned to read the article in the Washington Post referenced in the link below. It has to do with NSA sharing the raw personal data of American citizens with a foreign power. This is the most egregious violation of our 4th Amendment rights that I can imagine.

In a core respect, i was not surprised at all about this. What i was surprised about was the specifics… Israel..???

First of all, why would the Israeli government want information about Americans to begin with? The only thing i could possibly think of, is to track Islamic and/or Arab Americans with potential negative plans against Israel..????

But even then, something about that connection is quite baffling and feels rather..odd. I mean, after all, US and Israel are allies, have been for a long while. We consistently give more money and aid to that tiny little country than any other. In return, they want to spy on us, maybe it is to see who is anti-Semitic? (I'm joking). Unfortunately, some of the above lends credence to some of the more out there "conspiracy theories" in some ways, since Israel is often mentioned in connection with a lot of these type of theories. Until now, i haven't seriously considered/delved into some of that more extremist stuff, but perhaps it's worth really examining? When the NSA is giving Israel almost full access, carte blanche almost (well legally they are) to the huge mining of data they do on the American people, seems something deeper is going on. Oy Vey, my sphincter hurts from all the bending over…

When do we, and when will we, say enough is enough?

Very generally speaking: Really, anyone who has delved into the 911 building demolitions deeply with an open and critical mind, should not be at all surprised by any current revelations just because we have a different administration than previously. Obama is just a prettier and more believable package–a more serious and better actor.

“The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their Houses, and Farms, are to be pillaged and destroyed, and they consigned to a State of Wretchedness from which no human efforts will probably deliver them. The fate of unborn Millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this army” – Gen. George Washington, to his troops before the battle of Long Island

Such a time is near at hand again. The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this Army – and this Marine Corps, This Air Force, This Navy and the National Guard and police units of these sovereign states.

Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, reserves, National Guard, peace officers, fire-fighters, and veterans who swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic … and meant it. We won’t “just follow orders.”

Below is our declaration of orders we will NOT obey because we will consider them unconstitutional (and thus unlawful) and immoral violations of the natural rights of the people. Such orders would be acts of war against the American people by their own government, and thus acts of treason. We will not make war against our own people. We will not commit treason. We will defend the Republic.
Declaration of Orders We Will NOT Obey

Recognizing that we each swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and affirming that we are guardians of the Republic, of the principles in our Declaration of Independence, and of the rights of our people, we affirm and declare the following:

1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.

The attempt to disarm the people on April 19, 1775 was the spark of open conflict in the American Revolution. That vile attempt was an act of war, and the American people fought back in justified, righteous self-defense of their natural rights. Any such order today would also be an act of war against the American people, and thus an act of treason. We will not make war on our own people, and we will not commit treason by obeying any such treasonous order.

Nor will we assist, or support any such attempt to disarm the people by other government entities, either state or federal.

In addition, we affirm that the purpose of the Second Amendment is to preserve the military power of the people so that they will, in the last resort, have effective final recourse to arms and to the God of Hosts in the face of tyranny. Accordingly, we oppose any and all further infringements on the right of the people to keep and bear arms. In particular we oppose a renewal of the misnamed “assault-weapons” ban or the enactment of H.R. 45 (which would register and track gun owners like convicted pedophiles).

2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects – such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the use of “writs of assistance,” which were essentially warrantless searches because there was no requirement of a showing of probable cause to a judge, and the first fiery embers of American resistance were born in opposition to those infamous writs. The Founders considered all warrantless searches to be unreasonable and egregious. It was to prevent a repeat of such violations of the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects that the Fourth Amendment was written.

We expect that sweeping warrantless searches of homes and vehicles, under some pretext, will be the means used to attempt to disarm the people.

3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the denial of the right to jury trial, the use of admiralty courts (military tribunals) instead, and the application of the laws of war to the colonists. After that experience, and being well aware of the infamous Star Chamber in English history, the Founders ensured that the international laws of war would apply only to foreign enemies, not to the American people. Thus, the Article III Treason Clause establishes the only constitutional form of trial for an American, not serving in the military, who is accused of making war on his own nation. Such a trial for treason must be before a civilian jury, not a tribunal.

The international laws of war do not trump our Bill of Rights. We reject as illegitimate any such claimed power, as did the Supreme Court in Ex Parte Milligan (1865). Any attempt to apply the laws of war to American civilians, under any pretext, such as against domestic “militia” groups the government brands “domestic terrorists,” is an act of war and an act of treason.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the attempt “to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power” by disbanding the Massachusetts legislature and appointing General Gage as “military governor.” The attempt to disarm the people of Massachusetts during that martial law sparked our Revolution. Accordingly, the power to impose martial law – the absolute rule over the people by a military officer with his will alone being law – is nowhere enumerated in our Constitution.

Further, it is the militia of a state and of the several states that the Constitution contemplates being used in any context, during any emergency within a state, not the standing army.

The imposition of martial law by the national government over a state and its people, treating them as an occupied enemy nation, is an act of war. Such an attempted suspension of the Constitution and Bill of Rights voids the compact with the states and with the people.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty and declares the national government to be in violation of the compact by which that state entered the Union.

In response to the obscene growth of federal power and to the absurdly totalitarian claimed powers of the Executive, upwards of 20 states are considering, have considered, or have passed courageous resolutions affirming states rights and sovereignty.

Those resolutions follow in the honored and revered footsteps of Jefferson and Madison in their Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, and likewise seek to enforce the Constitution by affirming the very same principles of our Declaration, Constitution, and Bill of Rights that we Oath Keepers recognize and affirm.

Chief among those principles is that ours is a dual sovereignty system, with the people of each state retaining all powers not granted to the national government they created, and thus the people of each state reserved to themselves the right to judge when the national government they created has voided the compact between the states by asserting powers never granted.

Upon the declaration by a state that such a breach has occurred, we will not obey orders to force that state to submit to the national government.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the blockade of Boston, and the occupying of that city by the British military, under martial law. Once hostilities began, the people of Boston were tricked into turning in their arms in exchange for safe passage, but were then forbidden to leave. That confinement of the residents of an entire city was an act of war.

Such tactics were repeated by the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto, and by the Imperial Japanese in Nanking, turning entire cities into death camps. Any such order to disarm and confine the people of an American city will be an act of war and thus an act of treason.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

Mass, forced internment into concentration camps was a hallmark of every fascist and communist dictatorship in the 20th Century. Such internment was unfortunately even used against American citizens of Japanese descent during World War II. Whenever a government interns its own people, it treats them like an occupied enemy population. Oppressive governments often use the internment of women and children to break the will of the men fighting for their liberty – as was done to the Boers, to the Jewish resisters in the Warsaw Ghetto, and to the Chechens, for example.

mass execution
Such a vile order to forcibly intern Americans without charges or trial would be an act of war against the American people, and thus an act of treason, regardless of the pretext used. We will not commit treason, nor will we facilitate or support it.”NOT on Our Watch!”

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control” during any emergency, or under any other pretext. We will consider such use of foreign troops against our people to be an invasion and an act of war.

During the American Revolution, the British government enlisted the aid of Hessian mercenaries in an attempt to subjugate the rebellious American people. Throughout history, repressive regimes have enlisted the aid of foreign troops and mercenaries who have no bonds with the people.

Accordingly, as the militia of the several states are the only military force contemplated by the Constitution, in Article I, Section 8, for domestic keeping of the peace, and as the use of even our own standing army for such purposes is without such constitutional support, the use of foreign troops and mercenaries against the people is wildly unconstitutional, egregious, and an act of war.

We will oppose such troops as enemies of the people and we will treat all who request, invite, and aid those foreign troops as the traitors they are.

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies, under any emergency pretext whatsoever.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the seizure and forfeiture of American ships, goods, and supplies, along with the seizure of American timber for the Royal Navy, all in violation of the people’s natural right to their property and to the fruits of their labor. The final spark of the Revolution was the attempt by the government to seize powder and cannon stores at Concord.

Deprivation of food has long been a weapon of war and oppression, with millions intentionally starved to death by fascist and communist governments in the 20th Century alone.

Accordingly, we will not obey or facilitate orders to confiscate food and other essential supplies from the people, and we will consider all those who issue or carry out such orders to be the enemies of the people.

10. We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

There would have been no American Revolution without fiery speakers and writers such as James Otis, Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, and Sam Adams “setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.”

Patrick Henry: “Give me Liberty, or Give me DEATH!”

Tyrants know that the pen of a man such as Thomas Paine can cause them more damage than entire armies, and thus they always seek to suppress the natural rights of speech, association, and assembly. Without freedom of speech, the people will have no recourse but to arms. Without freedom of speech and conscience, there is no freedom.
Therefore, we will not obey or support any orders to suppress or violate the right of the people to speak, associate, worship, assemble, communicate, or petition government for the redress of grievances.

— And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually affirm our oath and pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor. Oath Keepers

The above list is not exhaustive but we do consider them to be clear tripwires – they form our “line in the sand,” and if we receive such orders, we will not obey them. Further, we will know that the time for another American Revolution is nigh. If you the people decide that you have no recourse, and such a revolution comes, at that time, not only will we NOT fire upon our fellow Americans who righteously resist such egregious violations of their God given rights, we will join them in fighting against those who dare attempt to enslave them.

NOTE: please also read our Principles of Our Republic We Are Sworn to Defend

More About Oath Keepers

Oath Keepers is a non partisan association of currently serving military, peace officers, fire-fighters, and veterans who will fulfill our oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God.

Our oath is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and not to any political party. In the long-standing tradition of the U.S. military, we are apolitical. We don’t care if unlawful orders come from a Democrat or a Republican, or if the violation is bi-partisan. We will not obey unconstitutional (and thus unlawful) and immoral orders, such as orders to disarm the American people or to place them under martial law. We won’t “just follow orders.” Our motto: “Not on Our Watch!” or to put it even more succinctly, in the words of 101st Airborne Commander General Anthony McAuliffe at the Battle of the Bulge, “NUTS!”

There is at this time a debate within the ranks of the military regarding their oath. Some mistakenly believe they must follow any order the President issues. But many others do understand that their loyalty is to the Constitution and to the people, and understand what that means.

And for those who are skeptical of the battle for our military's hearts and minds, I point you to this current Navy commercial that states "….I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THOSE APPOINTED OVER ME…."

Nothing is said about obeying lawful orders, just complete submission when orders are given.

The problem with New Orleans, is we knew what was going to happen, but the government ignored it – too much pressure to cut spending by wasteful government – who wants to spend money repairing levies or preventing wetland loss.

If you say we need to keep an eye on the government and keep it honest, fine, I agree with you.

If you really believe a government conspiracy that will enslave us – wacky!

Wait a second! You're a secret liberal trying to lob me softballs to help make my point : )

Jerry,
There are those that fear and believe there are conspiracies. Then there are those that know how history repeats itself and unless we really learn from it, we'll just keep doing it.
It's about preventing concentrated power.
And if you believe that this society is beyond quickly rallying behind someone that will demonize a group and act accordingly, then you and I see things differently.
Years ago I visited a Jewish cemetery in Santa Cruz. To this day I remember the inscription that read " Nothing human is alien to me". Given the right ( or wrong) circumstances we are still capable of horrific acts, unless we understand what it takes to get people to act in certain way , particularly in a group.

Do you care to address the original interview that this thread was based on?
What about our raw data being passed on to a foreign country.

Only addressing the extreme responses to this thread does not seem fair.

I was just addressing Matthew's conspiracy theories because I think they're more dangerous than any government conspiracy.

I listened to that NPR piece about Snowden at the time. I was hiking on the PCT from McKenzie Pass South. I agree, Snowden was way more hero than criminal.

Some other NPR piece interviewed Daniel Ellsberg who released the "Pentagon Papers" that revealed a bunch of secrets about Viet Nam war that helped turn people against the war. Ellsberg said there was no other way to get his secrets out than releasing them.

Ellsberg said it's the same with Snowden – no other way to get out his information.
Ellsberg thinks Snowden is a hero for sure.

What I find interesting, although not necessarily on these pages, is that so many people fear the government more than they fear rich and powerful individuals and multinational corporations. At least I do have some sort of redress with the government…there are elections and lets not forget, WE are the government in a democracy.

When wealth is concentrated at the highest levels though, and corporations and individuals can write their own laws and exert such undue influence on the rest of us, and you can convince the rank and file that organizing workers is bad, that criticizing "job creators" is bad, etc, THAT is what scares me. My government? That's me.

I did listen. And Kat, what I would argue is that those wars were not started by our government per se, but by the outsized influence oil companies and other multinationals have on those who make the decisions. We need to take the government back, but not from the hippies and the "freeloaders…" We need to do something to level the playing field and reduce the power that corporations and the wealthy have in this country.

Government should be our friend – it is US. A for profit corporation? All they are interested in is profits and power. And they obtain power by buying the people in our government. THAT is what needs to stop and that is the enemy, not government itself.