I want to make it clear that in this debate my position is not that firefighters and police or the heroism they may show in their work should be disrespected, but only that they are overrated as heroes in relation to other workers.

On the risk of job-related death, you would make a distinction between firefighters entering a burning building and steel workers entering their plants. This is an undeserved distinction, though I somewhat understand why it is made: firefighters (and cops) are seen as helping and protecting the weak and the endangered as opposed to meeting more mundane needs of food, shelter and transport that other more highly endangered professionals do. But even at that, I don't think it is correct to think globally in that regard because in most cases police and firefighters don't protect lives, but rather only property.

In all actuality, firefighting casualties *are* industrial casualties. There really is no reason to suggest that injured workers in another industry are more likely to be personally responsible for their accidents - such as by mentioning "deferred maintenance."

When two San Francisco firefighters recently died in a flare up, it was because they didn't follow standard department policy in venting hot gases. No civilians were at risk at the time.

As for the cops' risk of being "handed a bullet instead of a driver's license," I am tempted to stipulate that highway patrolmen who make daily traffic stops might face greater daily risk than taxi cab drivers and even fishermen - though I suspect that they are as likely to die in vehicle crashes as in shootings - but certainly not all cops have such duty. Many cops never have cause to unholster their firearms outside a firing range.

I do think I understand your caveats on the use of the term hero: you want to reserve the term for someone who deserves it to be written in their obituary or tombstone. I think such people are rare, though we tend to accord such respect when people die doing something heroic. Otherwise we speak of heroism in the fleeting sense; like "she was a hero when" or "he acted heroically".

So I will concede the point, but I think the bottom line remains that while some cops and firefighters are heroes, others not so much. It's just not that uniform.

No I don't want it reserved for people's tombstones or obituaries. Most true heroes don't die in an act of heroism because it is not the act that makes a hero. A hero is what a person is at their core and that is the distinction.

Someone who consciously faces death on a continual basis day in and day out is a hero does not matter if the die or not.

As far as accidents look at the investigation statistics and see how many are truly accidents, meaning circumstances that could not be foreseen or controlled and you will find the overwhelming majority are traced to negligence, improper maintenance of equipment or plain carelessness. In other words controllable or should have been foreseen. That does not mean that the victim necessarily should have seen it coming, but someone somewhere should have and with proper action could have prevented it from happening.

I'm trying to understand your perspective and find common ground. Is it to you just Kai and all firemen and cops who are heroes?

How about - say - a marine engineer who walks across a wooden board onto a rocking ferry each morning cognizant that a gust of wind or misplaced step might send him down to be impaled on some rotten pilings amid fridgid waters? What about the industrial maintenance mechanic whose trade regularly includes work on powerful machinery which can kill or maim him in an instant if his lock-out-tag-out precautions are subverted? ... or where a slip of a tool while working in a high voltage electrical panel could result in immediate death?

These (completely imaginary) people are representative of tradesmen who on a daily basis face death. I suppose without any big pension to keep someone's feet planted in a job where unsafe practices are the norm, one might cavalierly say its their own fault if they get injured.

Do you know, I don't think Kai faced death on a regular basis: he *was* dead. Kai only faced death twice in all the Lexx episodes - far less than Xev.

Kai was dead, but he died putting himself at risk to save others (Although the effort was in vain), it is who he was. He demonstrates this consistently throughout the series. Being dead did not change his basic character Once he got his memory back he acted completely out of character for a programmed tool of the Divine Order.

Firefighters, police officers, soldiers these are heroes because because they knowingly accept risk to themselves to protect or save others. It is that consistent willingness to sacrifice for others that makes a hero.

The ferryman does not get up and got to work expecting to have a freak gust of wind blow him overboard, the industrial mechanic does not go to work expecting to be maimed they expect and strive for just the opposite. These tradesmen not only do not risk their own safety for others they make every effort to reduce risk to themselves. I'm not saying they don't face danger of course they do, but they also make every effort to avoid that danger.

If facing danger was all it took to be a hero then everyone walking the face of the Earth would qualify, because we all face danger everyday.

I repeat it is not my intention to disparage individuals by making this point, but it isn't correct to apply the term "hero" universally to members of military and paramilitary forces and exclude anyone else.

Surely you've heard of - or can at least imagine - members of some of the above-mentioned uniformed groups behaving badly? Crooked and bullying cops, soldiers frivolously contesting their deployments into war zones - or committing atrocious war crimes - and firemen getting caught stealing from homes or milking their disability system?

You previously posited that any ulterior motives for "being a hero" or even seeking out that status was in itself a bar to it. I think that is a bit overstated, but certainly you can Google up the terms "wanted to be a hero" and "firefighter" together to find many instances where firefighters themselves recount searching out this status. (Little wonder, of course, since everyone to some degree seeks the approval and love of others.)

Inner city doctors and public school teachers: candidates for hero status? Yes.

Of course there are bad apples in any group (As you mention), those bad apples would not be heroes but they are the exception and not the rule.

As far as ulterior motive, what is the primary reason? If the primary reason they are doing it is for the attention then they aren't in it to help anyone else but further their own agenda (This is why I don't see Thodin as a hero yes he is doing the right thing but for the wrong reason)If they go into that field because they truly want to save others, then the term hero applies.

Inner city doctors and teachers yes they would be heroes for the plain simple fact that they are willingly walking into a deadly situation to help others. All public school teachers no, no more than all doctors. The select few who choose to work the inner city, yes.

Be_You_ wrote: Surely you've heard of - or can at least imagine - members of some of the above-mentioned uniformed groups behaving badly? Crooked and bullying cops, soldiers frivolously contesting their deployments into war zones - or committing atrocious war crimes - and firemen getting caught stealing from homes or milking their disability system?

Well stated. Brings to mind Larry Niven: "No cause is so noble that it won't attract fugheads."

____________________If you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader.
— Christopher Titus

I went with Squish he had a yummy teasty snack of brain and found a noble death. Also he got some protoblood to Kai with the help of Zev. Then Kai toke over saving constantly tweedle dumb and Xev. And anyother person he came across on Fire and Water he was a hero. Yay! for Kai but Squish takes the cake.

____________________~I would make a very bad killer in real life because I don't think I could even pick up a gun, much less actually shoot one. Guns make me very nervous. They're dangerous. I'm more of a pacifist than anyone could imagine.~ Christopher Walken