This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the FAQ and RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate and remove the ads - it's free!

Re: Gaddafi sodomized: Video shows abuse frame by frame (GRAPHIC)

No. If a person attacks a person who has victimized them, I do not see it as terrorism regardless of nationality.

So if someone suicide bombs a US convoy because a US occupier shot a relative, that is not terrorism?

"I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

Re: Gaddafi sodomized: Video shows abuse frame by frame (GRAPHIC)

No. If a person attacks a person who has victimized them, I do not see it as terrorism regardless of nationality.

I remember seeing somewhere (maybe here, maybe not) that an act of war by an unknown/unconventional enemy without a country and organized military etc was to be considered a terrorist.

Then it would appear that anyone or entity that commits any offense (not just violent as could be seen in cyber space etc) against the US can potentially be a terrorist act.

I am not so much concerned about this sub area as much as learning exactly what good and bad was done by MG, and also who or which groups ultimately forced and funded these actions?

So far all I have is information that is no better backed than my own opinion, and a video of someone shoving something that appears to be a large knife towards the rear pants of what looks to be an old man.

One side claims he took the country from the dark ages to an educated one where most were owning their own homes and had ample health care etc (not bad goals for any country) and others are making it appear as if this man was 100 times worse than the media made Hussein appear.

Re: Gaddafi sodomized: Video shows abuse frame by frame (GRAPHIC)

Yes I served in the British Army and did a tour in Basra Iraq and im well aware of international law. International wrote by the west has no jurisdiction over this group of rebel fighters

Really...

There are two serious violations of international law here, namely, (1) in relation to the Third Geneva Convention in 1929 and (2) in relation to the UN Security Council Resolution #1973 in 2011. Let me explain first (1) the Geneva Convention and then (2) the UN Resolution hereafter.

-snip-

A technical question here is who should be responsible for this criminal act. There are at least five legal possibilities, namely, (a) the individuals who physically abused him and/or pulled the trigger, like Sanad al-Sadek al-Ureibi and others to be identified, (b) the specific unit of NTC fighters which participated in the capture of Gaddafi and his group, (c) the NTC leadership, (d) NATO forces because of their participation (or complicity) in the attack which led to the capture (and the subsequent murder), and (e) certain leaders of Western powers who have given wholehearted support to NTC from the start to encourage the violence against the regime.

Look back on this thread. I said I had seen such on Internet forums and I certainly have Look back on this thread and you will find such..

Originally Posted by Higgins86

Im indifferent not happy about this death but im not about to judge their actions as I know nothing about them and know very little about what they have expierenced.

I understood you to be condoning it - with regards the sodomy racket, I did not look at the pictures, The very thought was revolting but even without that there is no excuse to condone the behaviour of the NTC fighters. He was a prisoner of war and should have been protected.

Originally Posted by Higgins86

I asked this questrion earlier and got no answer but do you also disgaree with the actions of the Italians when they got rid of mussolini?

You didn't ask me and to be honest I don't know what happened to Mussolini. I am assuming the Italian army attacked and humiliated him torturing him for a few minutes and then murdering him against the 1929 Geneva Convention. It is however irrelevant to this and two wrongs do not make a right. The behaviour carried out by some of these people has been as disgusting as we find anywhere. The murder of Gaddafi in this way and the subsequent murder of his son, caught and smoking a cigarette one minute and dead the next and the murder of the 53 other men captured as prisoners of war in Sirte, killed with their hands tied behind their backs. None of these things are excusable.

Last edited by alexa; 10-26-11 at 04:28 AM.

George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

Re: Gaddafi sodomized: Video shows abuse frame by frame (GRAPHIC)

True it is human behaviour. It is totally undisciplined barbaric behaviour going against all rules of war.

Originally Posted by Coin

British BRUTALITY in Iraq - YouTube Hear this british soldier. Hear it how he makes fun of brutality.
No matter if a soldier is from USA, UK, Iraq or elsewhere. Sometimes soldiers need to be animals to survive.

Regarding your video. I watched it till the sadist started talking and the beating began. Some of our soldiers committed crimes and where we have found out about this they have been charged. Looks like these people would fit into that. This is not about needing to be animals to survive, simply about being animals. It is a sadistic clip. Like I say some of our soldiers acted badly and where we know about it they have faced trial. I most certainly do not find this acceptable. It is simply bullying by sadistic people who have power over defenceless people and shows those who are rotten to the core. If you know who these people are please let me know so that I can check they have been brought to account.

George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

Re: Gaddafi sodomized: Video shows abuse frame by frame (GRAPHIC)

Look back on this thread. I said I had seen such on Internet forums and I certainly have Look back on this thread and you will find such..

I understood you to be condoning it - with regards the sodomy racket, I did not look at the pictures, The very thought was revolting but even without that there is no excuse to condone the behaviour of the NTC fighters. He was a prisoner of war and should have been protected.

You didn't ask me and to be honest I don't know what happened to Mussolini. I am assuming the Italian army attacked and humiliated him torturing him for a few minutes and then murdering him against the 1929 Geneva Convention. It is however irrelevant to this and two wrongs do not make a right. The behaviour carried out by some of these people has been as disgusting as we find anywhere. The murder of Gaddafi in this way and the subsequent murder of his son, caught and smoking a cigarette one minute and dead the next and the murder of the 53 other men captured as prisoners of war in Sirte, killed with their hands tied behind their backs. None of these things are excusable.

No, they aren't. This barbarism is appalling, however justified the "enthusiasm" was. I looked at a couple of frames in the OP's link and then decided that continuing to was participating in it too. What an ugly reminder of how savage human nature can be.

But the captors aren't soldiers in the sense that we understand armies, are they? Trained, I mean, and accustomed to following orders and familiar with the Geneva Convention?

I'm not excusing the executions or corpse desecration, just hoping that somebody who's more familiar with the facts can clue me in.

Re: Gaddafi sodomized: Video shows abuse frame by frame (GRAPHIC)

I've been searching to see if Fathi Terbil has released a statement since Gaddafis death but can't find anything. It's a given that he will be ecstatic that Gadaffis reign is finally over, but i can't help wondering how he feels about the events surrounding Gadaffis death.

Re: Gaddafi sodomized: Video shows abuse frame by frame (GRAPHIC)

Originally Posted by nota bene

No, they aren't. This barbarism is appalling, however justified the "enthusiasm" was. I looked at a couple of frames in the OP's link and then decided that continuing to was participating in it too. What an ugly reminder of how savage human nature can be.
But the captors aren't soldiers in the sense that we understand armies, are they? Trained, I mean, and accustomed to following orders and familiar with the Geneva Convention?

I'm not excusing the executions or corpse desecration, just hoping that somebody who's more familiar with the facts can clue me in.

I think that they had a mixture of people including soldiers who had defected. I think we also offered some training and we certainly ought to have informed them of the rules of law. I did leave a quote concerning this above. From reports I have read the NTC were frequently involved in raping and killing of Gaddafi supporters and fighters.

We also went far beyond our remit (res 1972?) to safeguard civilians, even in the bombing which allowed for this atrocity.

According to the link I left above

There are two serious violations of international law here, namely, (1) in relation to the Third Geneva Convention in 1929 and (2) in relation to the UN Security Council Resolution #1973 in 2011

particularly with the involvement of the West, I doubt if anything will come of it.

post 195. Here is a bit more

Even "British MP Jeremy Corbyn said that, as Gaddafi was captured alive, he should have been treated as prisoner of war, interrogated and put on trial," but "it looks that there was an element of mob rule in this, and he was indeed killed in the back of the truck," as reported by RT on October 20.

So now, both "the UN Human Rights Office and Amnesty International are calling for an investigation into Gaddafi's death as it raises concerns over what may be the unlawful killing of a prisoner," as reported by RT on October 22. U.N. human rights spokesman Rupert Colville even said on October 20 that he found it very disturbing when "you see someone who has been captured alive and then you see the same person dead....Summary executions are strictly illegal under any circumstances. It's different if someone is killed in combat....But if something else has happened, if someone is captured and then deliberately killed, then that is a very serious matter," as reported by Stephanie Nebehay for Reuters on October 21.

Unfortunately, because of the Western dominance in international legal bodies, any prosecution of war crimes committed by Western forces and their allies is very unlikely, as "Benjamin Barber, an analyst at a US think tank, does not expect anyone will be held accountable for the colonel's death," as reported by RT on October 22.

George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

Re: Gaddafi sodomized: Video shows abuse frame by frame (GRAPHIC)

Originally Posted by X Factor

Given some of your comments, I'm not even sure if you can see this thread any more. Either way, I might caution you about accusing others of hypocrisy. It's always a double edged sword. You may think it's hypocritical because you don't believe liberals are denouncing this where they would have if Bush were president. That can be easily turned to point out that you're only objecting to this because it happened while Obama is in the White House.

Just saying....

I can still read the comments. The moderators haven't tossed me out....yet.

I will acknowledge my clumsy attempt to stimulate a debate on the merits of BO's decision to blindly side with unknown rebels failed miserably. I used the sodomy story as another example of the dangers of climbing in bed with people you don't know for the sole purpose of killing a dictator. Given the level of atrocities our new "partners" are committing, I think its entirely fair to question the merits of BO's decision to wage war without a clue as to what happens when he achieved the first objective, killing MG.

Where does this stop? Do we start supporting any rebel that wants to kill a dictator, even if that rebel is just as nasty and inhumane as the dictator? There must be at least a dozen dictators in Africa we could target and kill using this new foreign policy. What happens when the rebels become as bad or worse than the dead dictator? Will the US international standing improve? I doubt it.

As to the hypocrisy charge, I will stand by it. If Bush had done the same thing I would be questioning his intelligence. I am still amazed at the level of support the liberals are giving this reckless policy. No good can come from working with new scumbags to kill old scumbags and then leave the country under the control of the new scumbags. Unfortunately the US has a long history on making similarly stupid decisions. Time will tell if my assumption about the new leaders in Libya is correct.