kirtu wrote:Sure but with Western tulkus we are necessarily getting away from that.

Well, perhaps, but in some cases a bank account holding many zeros makes for good old aristocracy.

Most tulkus are 2-6 when this happens. Even if one were a teenager they would still not bear this responsibility. As mature practitioners, sure. Then this gets back to what is really meant by powers on the bhumis. I'm uncertain about that.

Well, If someone said I was a tulku when I was 2-6 and people held that idea regarding myself today, now that I'm 36 I would set the record straight.

The main point of the identification should be to spur a practitioner to seriously consider how they can benefit beings and take responsibility for teaching or intensive practice in some way. Done correctly, tulku identification can be a means of sheparding a rare and precious resource.

Agree. That's the main point. The problem comes when real tulkus are left aside while the offspring of people of influence receive the sort of training they should be having. It's always great that people can benefit from good instruction in Dharma, but as you said "main point of the identification should be to spur a practitioner to [...] sheparding a rare and precious resource.

As multiple tulkus have said the birth process introduces obscuration. So tulkus on the higher bhumis can be obscured? Namdrol and others say no and say it definitively. Mayhaps be, mayhaps aint. The tulkus who said it though have often been great. Therefore I trust their statement. I have had a teacher tell me directly that until a certain point is reached in development in this body clarity and awareness can be obscured. OTOH many of the highest tulkus also manifest Dharma study and practice habits intuitively as little kids. We often see this kind of thing in our society also until we beat it out of the kids in one way or another (i.e. Western culture tends to be caustic wrt religious interest in many cases).

People find all sorts of excuses to justify politics. I don't know if I buy that.

Often in the beginning. Then hopefully they mature.

Hopefully. That's not what I see though.

The young men in Gesar's movie are also products of politics and money? Seems a stretch. But clearly the tulku system does need reform.

I don't know. Gesar is the son of a famous lama. The others I have no clue. I really don't care if he is a tulku since he is not my teacher. To me, he is just another fellow. He has more merits than me, that's for sure. He has the merits to be around great lamas with whom he can share close relationships. I have to go to great lengths simply to attend teachings (my life is basically set around that so that I can do it). But each to his own. I hope things work out for him, whatever he decides to do. Seems a nice guy.

I'm not sure the situation is as bad as you make it out as although the point with advanced practitioners being ignored is real and has to be fixed. The main problem is that practitioners are holding themselves back usually. How do we address this problem? Part of the thing is that Dharma culture is also still shallow with many Westerners. That btw is partly what several of the young tulkus in the film said. The institutionalized expectations are not necessarily relevant to the current situation. Then the tulkus should make the needed changes. Ashoka for example feels strongly that his activity in the aid agency he works for is the kind of activity he should pursue.

I think it is worse and I'm not even aware. I don't want to generalize, but it's my honest opinion that most young lamas could benefit spending more time in retreat instead of acting like globetrotter pop stars inside the Dharma community. Just my take, nothing very important.

Gesar says that his friend in Halifax, Dylan Henderson was the first western caucasian TULKU.

WRONG

Lets try George Leslie Dawson (1931 - 2003) from Toronto Canada who was recognized by the 16th Karmapa in the late 1960's as the incarnation of Mipham Rinpoche. He was given the title of the Venerable Namgyal Rinpoche.

Well, "Namgyal Rinpoche" was overly dubious guy, and it is not really clear that he got the recognition he claimed to have. To my knowledge he also had never provided any document supporting his claims about his recognitions by HH: Gyalwa Karmapa and Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche.

Hello

In regards to Namgyal Rinpoche "To my knowlege he also has never provided any documentary support .... his claims about his recognition".

Still don't know who those other 3 western tulkus are supposed to be the recognition of, any help?

Another guy was accepted as a nyingma tulku by Palyul centers in the US. for a certain time, until they found out that he was a fraud, so being listed in some website doesn't make one authentic. Anyways, Namgyal is dead now, plus this website still does not provide any docummentary proof of recognition.

In any case, when there is a Western tulku my "spider instinct" always rings an alaram. Most of the Westerners who claim to be tulkus are completely fake or dubious at least, just like with Tibetans, except their motives are a bit different. Westerners come to claim that they are tulkus in order to create their own organisation, make their living, f*ck some women, or in some cases they are just genuine fools. Tibetans often have more of a culture, politics and power games involved, although they learn quickly and now you also have more and more straightforward frauds, whose motivations for claiming to be a tulku are just same as those of the Westerners.

I don't see anything on this page that says he was recognized as a tulku, only that he was ordained by the 16th Karmapa. In any case, my opinion is that you should respect a person for what they've done in this life, not for what they are supposed to have done in a previous life.

Imagine a man who stands before a mirror; a stone strikes it, and it falls to ruin all in an instant. And the man learns that he is himself, and not the mirrored man he had believed himself to be.-- Gene Wolfe

GesarMukpo wrote:Edit (DN): Ad hominem, irrelevant and again ad hominem. We ask tulkus, and everyone else for that matter, to refrain from that sort of argumentation. Thank you.

edit: Tulkus

Me: Sechen KongtrulDylan: Unnamed because people get butt hurt when a white guy is recognized. He someone close to my father though.Ashoka: Karma Gon Rinpoche a teacher of the previous Karmapas.Ruben: I can't remember, does it really matter?Wyatt: I forget but no one huge, i asked around and his previous incarnations two wives wanted him to visit them which he declined to do so as I told him maybe they had some tantric sex to catch up on...(I joke)

Anyways sorry for not being more techincal but as you may see it kills the experience......

The first thing you need to do is learn that when people insult you (or when you perceive it as an insult), to just take it in stride, dude. Relax man.

Furthermore, according to the teachings, it is a result of your own misdeeds in the past. So use it as an opportunity to be mature and tell yourself you won't muck up your karmic imprints more by retaliating verbally or in any other way.

Also you talk alot about Tulku, tulku, tulku, but not alot about Dharma. What's the point? Your a tulku so I should see your movie?Kevin

Sorry I thought your name was Harold. Well let's talk then PM your number.

Kevin: American

Seriously though I'm not a teacher of any kind in case anyone takes this seriously. You should watch my movie because then you can say something and I can jump on your ass right away for it. it'd be Greco fun!

Seriously though I will talk Dharma but I was keeping on topic of the thread and the film and this is hardly the place to do it. But since you asked me I am obliged to give a teaching. I will give a teaching that has not been given before....

mr. gordo wrote:This thread has been re-opened. Members, please remember to stay on topic and refrain from Ad Hom attacks.

Thank you

Should'a just left it locked. This thing's run it's course and with Gesar's AMA thread going, it seems rather pointless now.

Just sayin'

I hear what you're sayin'. Gesar's other thread is a bit more distinct with a more light hearted tone. Other members are free to continue here as well considering there were a bit more varied subjects covered as well.

How foolish you are, grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention! - Vasubandhu

I finally watched this movie, which was interesting. One question is are there female tulkus? I have never heard of a contemporary female tulku (although I'm aware of a few female teachers/Rinpoches). I'm just wondering why the manifestations are primarily outwardly male...