Nice. I'm sure you have a great plan for the millions of unwanted children born when abortion is illegal.

that's your justification for murder? by that line of thinking, lots of deaths should be made legal. to be honest, i don't see why there is a prohibition against infanticide. after all, the difference between abortion and murder is just a matter of a few days.

it is another great example of the end justifying the means, and that's a tenet of liberal thinking. no right or wrong, only outcome.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

So I take it you believe that a womans right to murder granchildren is preminent in all human activities? God, it is so twisted. I hope that your children don't decide that you become inconvienient someday, and one more thing. When we get this Sharia law you don't seem to mind, Do you they think they will start the clitorectomies on older women like you or on the ten year old girls first? Will we be third world enough by then they will use the traditional pocket knife and will the 20% mortality thru infection be acceptable in the world you apparently want here. As I told my children when too young to reason: Reality sucks!

I would say that a mature mind can see all the possibilities, not just the easy black and white.

Tell me, what will you do with all the unwanted children? I would rather there be no need for abortion, no unwanted pregnancyin the first place. But there is. So tell me what you would do with the children?

There WILL be death, abuse, neglect. It will just be happening after birth.

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The pedigree of honey Does not concern the bee; A clover, any time, to him Is aristocracy. ---Emily Dickinson

So I take it you believe that a womans right to murder granchildren is preminent in all human activities? God, it is so twisted. I hope that your children don't decide that you become inconvienient someday, and one more thing. When we get this Sharia law you don't seem to mind, Do you they think they will start the clitorectomies on older women like you or on the ten year old girls first? Will we be third world enough by then they will use the traditional pocket knife and will the 20% mortality thru infection be acceptable in the world you apparently want here. As I told my children when too young to reason: Reality sucks!

Vance, I'm afraid you've lost me. Grandchildren? Sharia law? Are you meaning to post in a different thread? By the way, it is the taking away of women's rights to control their own bodies that would LEAD to genital mutilation, but you seem a little confused about it.

ETA: It's amazing how fast it gets really personal when talking about abortion. Somehow because I have the beliefs I do, I become a monster who would murder my own children, and therefore I've raised children who would do the same for me.

I've been a lucky woman. I am married to a fine man. I have enough of all things I need. I have 2 extended families who support me and my family. I'm healthy. I have always been in a situation where I could love and raise my children, and in a position to get healthcare that allowed me birth control when I wasn't in that position. I cannot see a circumstance under which I would ever have an abortion. But, like many things in life, what has been my privilege in life does NOT mean every woman shares the same things I do.

I see the lifelong trauma to children who are raised by incapable, uncaring, abusive parents. It's so, so very easy to denounce abortion. And so hard to say what you would do for the hurt children. These children will have social services poured into them their entire lives, and that's just in the HOPE that it will be enough.

So, yes, in my delightful life where ALL the children in our family are adored, cherished and well cared for, abortion is completely unnecessary.Yet I realize that MY world is not everyone's world.

ETA: If you conservatives think there is too much welfare going on now, just take away abortion rights and see how bad it gets.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 02:22:29 PM by luvin honey »

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The pedigree of honey Does not concern the bee; A clover, any time, to him Is aristocracy. ---Emily Dickinson

the unwanted baby argument goes back to the argument that abortion and even forced sterilization were good ways to control the population of the poor, defective, and minorities. it goes back to the 20's when some very well known people, like George Bernard Shaw and Margaret Sanger were advocating for various forms of forced population control/manipulation.

it was their writings and speeches that Hitler read and referenced as he stated his own population cleaning programs. this was also the foundation of Planned Parenthood.

would there be unwanted babies if abortion were ended. yes. might there be fewer if women were not paid for having babies? yes. might there be fewer if it were still socially unacceptable to have babies out of wedlock? yes...although i know we are not going to reinstate any kind of moral judgment...god forbid....

is the unwanted baby argument still an excuse for murder? i think so.

now, let me tell you another story.my brother has 4 children. all of them are talented and in the IQ gifted range.

when his wife was pregnant the 1st time they did an ultrasound. it showed an anomaly on the brain of the baby. my brother and SIL were sent for genetic counseling and the geneticist recommended that they abort the baby. they declined. the baby was born healthy. same thing happened with the second baby and they were referred to the same geneticist. same advice given. 2nd baby born healthy.

3rd baby, you guessed it....except this time the geneticist refused to meet with them because she "didn't want to waste her time with religious nuts".

4th baby: this one came a little later and was a bit of a surprise. when the ultrasound was done, same anomaly. my brother told the tech not to bother with the referral to the geneticist. guess what she told him? "oh, we see this all the time and we have found that it really doesn't mean anything".

we think it's ok to play god. we decide who lives and who dies. by what right does a woman end the life of her child? because it's her body? once she's pregnant, it's not her body anymore. she shares it with another life.in this day, when birth control is everywhere, there is no excuse for most accidents. perhaps when they happen, if we didn't consider them accidents and inconveniences, we think differently about ending that life.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

I have my own SIL story. Mine had an US that showed anencephaly. Would she carry the brainless baby to term? Would she induce early? She was given a lot of hurtful advice. She chose to induce early, and the baby was born without a brain. Just like the ultrasound showed. It was her body, her life, and I would have supported her either way. Both grandmas were in the delivery room with her and cried with her together over the terrible loss. I'm very grateful that she went on to have 2 perfectly healthy children.

Regarding what to do with the unwanted children, this is NOT just an old historical argument that can be written off since liberals have been using it forever. It's a real question. Until you can either figure out a way to prevent unwanted pregnancy, or find/create good homes for children born who were not wanted, you will not have a genuine argument against abortion.

And I like links just fine, as long as they take me someplace at least pretending to see more than 1 side of an issue.

If I were to get pregnant at my advanced age of 38, it WOULD be an accident. I would probably grieve the loss of the life I now have for a week or 2, and then I would be able to move into anticipating joyfully the birth of an unplanned child. THAT is because I have the life I have, and the people in it who are in it, along with a great spouse.

Yes, definitely, get rid of welfare provisions that benefit multiple children, but that actually goes against your argument. You say, "might there be fewer if women were not paid for having babies? yes." If people are having so many babies to get welfare, then how the heck does that relate to them also aborting? I guess you lost me there.

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The pedigree of honey Does not concern the bee; A clover, any time, to him Is aristocracy. ---Emily Dickinson

Until you can either figure out a way to prevent unwanted pregnancy, or find/create good homes for children born who were not wanted, you will not have a genuine argument against abortion.

sorry, i just can't accept that as a legitimate argument for murder. would you say it was ok to start allowing the killing of the elderly because there were not enough long term care facilities, or the cost was to much?

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You say, "might there be fewer if women were not paid for having babies? yes." If people are having so many babies to get welfare, then how the heck does that relate to them also aborting? I guess you lost me there.

that's not quite the argument i was making. it's the argument the left makes, the very one that you made, that society and the babies are better off for the abortions. they are not. what we have done is make it very easy for the people we wish to discourage from getting pregnant, to do so. we pay them to have babies.

your SIL made a difficult decision. her case is very rare. in her case, the baby would not have survived anyway. far different case from that of my brother. it is likely that if abortion were restricted to pregnancies like your SIL, there would be no objection.

i told the story of how i came to my opinion before, so i'll only do the RD version here: when i started working L&D many years ago, 36 weeks was considered very premature and the baby might very well not make it, or be severely damaged. when i left L&D, we were down to 32 or so weeks. now we save babies into the 20+ week range. of the difference between fetus and baby is viability, and viability is determined by tech, we might want to rethink the morality of what we are doing. it's either a baby or it's not.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

I actually agree with you. I was born a preemie--5 weeks, tiny, birth complications. My parents would not have aborted me had they known. I don't like abortion at all. I don't see it as a viable form of birth control. It's just that I also think post-birth lives count also.

And how about we keep our arguments to reality? Our elderly aren't dying because of lack of long-term care, although I bet a lot of them have substandard care. Fortunately for them, caring for them is a business and people make money (although probably not enough) from caring for them.

Children are powerless. When children come to our home, my overwhelming sense is their lack of power. The adults in their lives have left them vulnerable to adults like me and my husband. Thankfully for them, we will protect them. Do you think there are enough people out there willing to become foster parents? Mentors? Social workers? There isn't money in caring for children, and there's a view that people should take care of themselves, and their own children. I agree. They should. But what do we do when they don't? I don't believe children are responsible for the awful decisions of the adults in their lives. But most people will turn the other way and pretend not to see. There's simply no money, power, honor or glory in caring for left-behind children. Not to mention that it messes up a person's house, schedule, interferes with your own family life, puts you in contact with people you'd rather avoid, hurts your heart, and pays you next to nothing for all the chaos you're willing to put up with.

So, no, I don't like abortion. But when I think of the floodgates opening and simply gushing unwanted children into our already overwhelmed society, I cannot even begin to imagine how bad it would get. Unless, of course, you can promise me that each person demanding the end of abortion would personally adopt/foster/mentor these children themselves.

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The pedigree of honey Does not concern the bee; A clover, any time, to him Is aristocracy. ---Emily Dickinson

what if there were fewer unwanted pregnancies because women knew that abortion wasn't an option?

+ the very women you'd like to be having abortions, aren't.

i understand what you are saying, but to me, a thing is either right or it's wrong. i can't see how you sanction murder, if you see it as murder, because the result of ending the murder might be more unwanted babies. following that line of logic, you can justify a lot of nasty stuff.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

what if there were fewer unwanted pregnancies because women knew that abortion wasn't an option?

+ the very women you'd like to be having abortions, aren't.

i understand what you are saying, but to me, a thing is either right or it's wrong. i can't see how you sanction murder, if you see it as murder, because the result of ending the murder might be more unwanted babies. following that line of logic, you can justify a lot of nasty stuff.

Well, fortunately I only decide for my own life. For my own life, I choose children. I'm not sure if I see it as murder or not. If so, then I murdered one of my own children when I was rushed to the ER for an ectopic pregnancy. I didn't get to see the blob they removed, but I doubt it would have seemed much like a "baby" at that point. You make a good point that "viability" has changed greatly over the years. It's a difficult argument to make, as where's the magical line between fetus and baby, between viable and not viable?

I think there's a choice between wrong and more wrong. I think it's a sin (quite literally) for children to be neglected, abused, brutalized, ignored. I also think abortion is wrong (for me, in my life, with all my options). Which do I think is the greater sin? Which do I think hurts the most people in the long run? I think my choice on this is pretty clear. And if a woman decides she cannot, will not raise a child, I will not be the one to stand in front of her and insist she does.

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The pedigree of honey Does not concern the bee; A clover, any time, to him Is aristocracy. ---Emily Dickinson

i don't think that. i do think that because abortion is an option, the temptation to behave irresponsibly is increased.

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I think there's a choice between wrong and more wrong. I think it's a sin (quite literally) for children to be neglected, abused, brutalized, ignored. I also think abortion is wrong (for me, in my life, with all my options). Which do I think is the greater sin

moral relativism gets rid of absolute right and absolute wrong. it makes it easy for society to accept any form of behavior, underwritten with some kind of excuse. do you know that one of the common arguments for not ending slavery was the the slaves would starve because they would not be able to care for themselves? that's where that quote i gave you from Fredrick Douglass came from.

anyway, i suppose we'll have to disagree on this one..........

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

slaves were not seen as adults at the time. even many of those who were anti-slavery had major doubts about blacks being able to take care of themselves. they viewed blacks the way PETA views pets.

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Are you suggesting children can raise themselves out of a crippling childhood?

of course they can. google it. there are thousands through history that have done it and given society immeasurable gifts. = there are plenty who have been born into great circumstances and have been worthless humans. god, if you believe in god, makes that call. if not him/her, then chance, or fate, or whatever....but what might we lose when we presume to do it?

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

""Are you suggesting children can raise themselves out of a crippling childhood?""

I did.

At the age of 7, I was working on main street shining shoes. By 10, I was washing dishes in the cafe.

I had a father that thought 60 lbs. of lard and 100 lbs. of flour was a month's groceries. Anything else, we scrounged. Neighbor's garden, milk cow, chickens, and pigs in the back yard. Hunting and fishing. We never had running water in the house nor door knobs on the doors. Didn't know what a thermostat was, much less have one.

He could also bring blood with every swing of the belt. Two of my brothers were beaten unconscious. I learned to stay at neighboring homes more than my own. By 10, I was often gone for days at a time.

Yes, a kid can learn to fend for himself, if he wants anything from life.

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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

Why not? I wasn't even in the bottom 25%. A lot of them back then in the south had it much worse. In fact, I was grown before I even knew I had it bad, since so many others were much worse off. Heck, we even had electric lights, tho no receptacles, and an outhouse sitting over a hole in the ground. Many of my friends had neither. Oil lamps and a trip into the woods.

I think overall, the kids back then had it better than the kids do now. We could safely ride our bikes anywhere in town, or outside of town. No child killers, no little girl rapists. We learned to work and respect others.

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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

in a perfect world, they wouldn't have to, but your alternative is death. besides, i think that those who survive hardship and achieve are usually far better humans than those with an easy life and no challenges. i wonder what kind of society we would have if everything were easy for everyone. i think i'd be board pretty much to death, and certainly wouldn't have made much of my life.

i always do better against the wind.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

Some people are just endowed with god like attributes that make them feel comfortable with life and death decisions and power over other peoples lives. People with that attitude formed a political party and before they were done the National Socialists had killed most of the Jews, Gypsies, the infirm and mentally retarded and every Pole and Russian they could get there hands on. It is not a darn bit different and the butcher bill was over thirty million unborn grandchildren last time I knew for sure.

The left is always free with making these choices for the good of the people. The worst part is they have destroyed the best educational system in the world and replaced it with an efficient conduit to launder public funds into union dues to support a political party that furthers their ends. My son-in-law now taking his teachers indoctrination curriculum, was just given the assignment of filing a formal complaint on a product or service delivered with a major corporation of his choice. He was told they could make up any details they wanted. My son in law is a moral man and worries that doing so might damage innocent people to further the professors anti business agenda. Beneath contempt!

Most pregnancies come from consensual sex. Most abortions come as a result of consensual sex. If you are in a situation where raising a child is not good,perhaps foregoing the sex is an alternative better than abortion and all the other mental anguish that goes with it. Most people are aware that every encounter can result in a pregnancy. Some of this is assuming responsibility for the risk you take.If you cannot take the responsibility,the mature person will not take the risk. But for others the instant gratification throws responsibility out the window.Does anyone know where Planned Parenthood got it's start?Look up Margaret Sanger:http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htmThe motives may not be clear.

Is there not a waiting list of people who wish to adopt? This seems overshadowed much of the time.It seems funny when pro abortion crowd fights hard to save the life of proven and convicted murderers. And often a repeat offender.You cannot judge a murderer by the lives he has destroyed.