Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

satyreyes wrote:

free and legal on Crunchyroll if you really want to go look for examples.

Double post to say I've since gone through the “witches” parts of PMMM again (the show gets a lot less enjoyable after one already knows the plot IMHO). No, there are no “Witch Reaction” scenes shown. So yes, if the “going into the Labyrinth” bit is not symbolism for “reaching a hard to reach destructive cynic/villain”, then the Witches really are just mindless monsters, with the show’s core allegory falling flat as result.

Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

gorgeousshutin wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

free and legal on Crunchyroll if you really want to go look for examples.

Double post to say I've since gone through the “witches” parts of PMMM again (all the while realizing my wisdom in deleting the show in the first place – it gets a lot less enjoyable after one already knows the plot IMHO). No, there are no “Witch Reaction” scenes shown. So yes, if the “going into the Labyrinth” bit is not symbolism for “reaching a hard to reach destructive cynic/villain”, then the Witches really are just mindless monsters, with the show’s core allegory falling flat as result.

Is PMMM trying to present the witches as an allegory in the first place, though? I really like PMMM a lot, but I'm not sure it operates at that kind of deep level. Likewise to how the characters are very wide-open and talk about their feelings, there wasn't much that struck me as symbolism in the show. The main interesting thing PMMM does is a deconstruction of the genre, but aside from that it's quite honest and straight-forward.

Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

I think that's a wise question. There are media like SKU that carefully deploy pervasive symbolism in a way that creates depth and has meaning; there are media like Xenosaga that throw symbolic-looking things around willy-nilly in hopes of creating the appearance of depth without having to actually have meaning; and then there is the vast majority of media that don't use all that much symbolism, and are good (or bad) for other reasons. PMMM draws a lot of SKU comparisons, so I went into it expecting it to be the first kind. Maybe as a result I saw it as the second kind when it's actually the third kind.

Even if so, though, it's hard to let PMMM off the hook completely. A magical-girl story is a coming-of-age story about accepting responsibility. Especially after Mami dies, Sayaka and Madoka are constantly worrying about whether they have a moral responsibility to accept the contract. And they have to decide what to wish for, and in particular whether to wish to help themselves or other people. With those questions at the heart of the story, I think it's difficult not to read the contract as a symbolic growing up. But if contractees eventually become witches, we're practically forced to confront what that means symbolically, because it obviously bears heavily on whether you ought to accept the contract, which means it bears on whether (or how) you ought to grow up. If becoming a witch doesn't mean anything, that weakens the coming-of-age story. And if you're not telling a strong coming-of-age story, then you can't turn around and say "look how clever this genre deconstruction is," because you're skipping over a fundamental piece of the genre you're supposed to be deconstructing.

So I guess I feel like maybe PMMM straddles the second and third categories. It throws around enough stuff about growing up and responsibility to create the illusion of containing a strong symbolic coming-of-age story, just so that it can inhabit the proper genre, but if you try to use symbols to identify what the show actually means to say about coming of age, then it falls apart. Or else I'm not clever enough for it!

Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Honey Bear wrote:

The main interesting thing PMMM does is a deconstruction of the genre, but aside from that it's quite honest and straight-forward.

Late for me to be saying this, but this is a good point. Some series try to make a point about the real world; PMMM is a work trying to make a point about fiction. It does this by:

1. Showing that the 'monsters' mercilessly slaughtered by magical girls were ultimately made that way by an outside force.2. Showing how naïve it would be to accept a 'Become a magical girl!' offer no questions ask by giving the mascot empowerer an ulterior motive and making him care little for the welfare of those he empowers.3. Showing the flaws in the 'Peggy Sue' plot by demonstrating how insane a character would have to be to do something like that.

Fiction commenting on other fiction is referred to as 'metafiction.' SKU is also metafiction in the way it treats traditional fairy tale roles, but it's clear that Ikuhara wants to make a point about the real world as well.

Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

So im *YEARS* late to this party and I'm gonna thread necro this real hard.

I just watched Madoka Magica last night, I read through most of yalls replies... Man what a feel trip. I wasn't ready for any of the feels I got. Ive seen these before, but this is just exactly how I feel about the show: http://i.imgur.com/ake8hnr.png

Going into it, I didnt understand Homura's character... but I'm a huge fan of Steins;Gate and by the time we hit the third episode i knew _something_ was up. I exclaimed she had traveled time, but i didnt know how or why... damn.

I havent seen the movies yet, but I'm looking forward to it. I was just hoping there was a IRG support group for needing hugs after these sad animes Y^Y.

I'm still processing what I saw, but I think it was a great show. 12 Episodes felt a bit too short, I would hope for 1 or 2 more to give a little more gravity to what Homura had done. I also wasnt 100% fond of the ending. It felt kind of like "nothing matters" but at the same time I think it was a great way of Madoka trying to show a thank you to what Homura had done.... but then we see her going through all of the same troubles and sadness, just without the witches... which kind of pointed to the notion of "Humans suck anyway, there will always be some sadness... but at least there is now more hope!"

My heart just really broke for Homura... when she passes, will she be with Madoka? ... which leads me to what some of you had already talked about, the types of relationships we have in Western culture vs Asian cultures.

Ive visited Japan and Korea -- and I'm aware that many girls will hold hands and interlock arms and walk around in a very close way -- that here in America would be viewed as too close and borderline lesbianism -- based on that forced christian perspective. So even in the show she says my closest friend -- and there isn't any time to develop anything more than that kind of relationship -- but I left the show wanting more, and maybe that was their point. I'm not chanting around for yuri -- but just to sacrifice that much for someone is a bold statement. Is this how we view each other? I agree with another poster that mentioned something along the lines of being close to their friends at the age of 10-13. I felt a bit like Madoka -- confused and wondering whats going on for most of the show. I would've preferred to see some of that relationship grow again before the ending. Is there some way that Madoka can understand that?

When Homura hugged Madoka in her house and Madoka did nothing but stand there.... I was shocked. Mad! How can you let someone so hurt and so in need of a friend just sit there weeping on you?? But again, Madoka was confused and trying to piece it all together. I felt really terrible for Homura and just how lonely it all must feel.... Then again, that seems to always be the point of these time travel shows. They wear you down, watching your loved one die repeatedly, seeing tragedies unfold in similar but different enough ways. But did Madoka really grasp that? Not until she became some kind of omniscient being did she really get the gravity of all of that.

I'll discuss it in another thread, but I'm always so attached to these characters and their stories. This writer definitely exposed me to a lot of questioning of myself, my motives, and my past. I felt the pain and related to some of the actions the characters took (in all shows, not just this one)... but I cant help but wondering...

Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

satyreyes wrote:

Even if so, though, it's hard to let PMMM off the hook completely. A magical-girl story is a coming-of-age story about accepting responsibility. Especially after Mami dies, Sayaka and Madoka are constantly worrying about whether they have a moral responsibility to accept the contract. And they have to decide what to wish for, and in particular whether to wish to help themselves or other people. With those questions at the heart of the story, I think it's difficult not to read the contract as a symbolic growing up. But if contractees eventually become witches, we're practically forced to confront what that means symbolically, because it obviously bears heavily on whether you ought to accept the contract, which means it bears on whether (or how) you ought to grow up. If becoming a witch doesn't mean anything, that weakens the coming-of-age story. And if you're not telling a strong coming-of-age story, then you can't turn around and say "look how clever this genre deconstruction is," because you're skipping over a fundamental piece of the genre you're supposed to be deconstructing.

I think there is more to the contract than growing up. I just watched Rebellion and as it has already pointed out, the movie has a lot of direct SKU allusions, and it refreshed my knowledge of the whole lore and specific rules of the PMMM universe.The contract allows girls to wield a lot of power, for the sake of achieving something they wish for, at a price. However, I think it needs be mentioned that what Kyubey offers goes very counter to the rules of nature. On a very immediate levels the girls lose their very bodies, one of the most devastating points the series hits the viewer with. Seen in such a light, the contract is not so much about growing up as perhaps the exact opposite: it is more of a way of cutting corners in the maturing process, a shortcut into adulthood that cannot possibly work precisely because it does away with the possibility of ever growing up.

When I first watched the series I thought that Madoka's mother was something of a silly and almost unnecessary character. But I now see her as an example that being an adult does not entail becoming a monster. She is the proof that a woman can live her life, face her responsibilites- I suspect this is why she is a career woman, someone who is actively 'in the world' and struggling as such- and still retain her humanity. Madoka's mother has not accepted any deal with Kyubey, of course, and her very presence counters what is often taken to the narrative stance that all girls must become witches if they try to achieve their dreams. She is also something of a link to the real world, so to speak, a non-magical character who is the living evidence you can achieve a kind of happiness without resorting to deals that eventually do away with your humanity.

I view the contract and the power it grants more of hubris in an almost literal sense as it is an over-reaching of one's limits.

As for the corruption all magical girls face, I think we should keep in mind that while Kyubey is obviously not to be trusted, the way he compares the energy released by a witch as fuel is very telling. Kyubey has no interest in harming the girls in itself, he has no malice- which is one of the reasons why he is such a weirdly formidable villain- but is simply complying with a system in which employing magical energy creates something akin to pollution which in turn taints the magical girls. In a closed system this accumulation of pollution eventually can no longer be averted and thus a witch is born. In other words, I do not see the girls becoming witches as an implication that they are evil. On the contrary, whether they are pure hearted or not, being a magical girl leads to their falling into despair partially because on some level they have become part of a system that treats them as energy providers and nothing else. Whatever they may feel, want, or care for, all that eventually becomes moot as the system negates their humanity even if their intentions were good.

Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Nocturnalux wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

Even if so, though, it's hard to let PMMM off the hook completely. A magical-girl story is a coming-of-age story about accepting responsibility. Especially after Mami dies, Sayaka and Madoka are constantly worrying about whether they have a moral responsibility to accept the contract. And they have to decide what to wish for, and in particular whether to wish to help themselves or other people. With those questions at the heart of the story, I think it's difficult not to read the contract as a symbolic growing up. But if contractees eventually become witches, we're practically forced to confront what that means symbolically, because it obviously bears heavily on whether you ought to accept the contract, which means it bears on whether (or how) you ought to grow up. If becoming a witch doesn't mean anything, that weakens the coming-of-age story. And if you're not telling a strong coming-of-age story, then you can't turn around and say "look how clever this genre deconstruction is," because you're skipping over a fundamental piece of the genre you're supposed to be deconstructing.

I think there is more to the contract than growing up. I just watched Rebellion and as it has already pointed out, the movie has a lot of direct SKU allusions, and it refreshed my knowledge of the whole lore and specific rules of the PMMM universe.The contract allows girls to wield a lot of power, for the sake of achieving something they wish for, at a price. However, I think it needs be mentioned that what Kyubey offers goes very counter to the rules of nature. On a very immediate levels the girls lose their very bodies, one of the most devastating points the series hits the viewer with. Seen in such a light, the contract is not so much about growing up as perhaps the exact opposite: it is more of a way of cutting corners in the maturing process, a shortcut into adulthood that cannot possibly work precisely because it does away with the possibility of ever growing up.

When I first watched the series I thought that Madoka's mother was something of a silly and almost unnecessary character. But I now see her as an example that being an adult does not entail becoming a monster. She is the proof that a woman can live her life, face her responsibilites- I suspect this is why she is a career woman, someone who is actively 'in the world' and struggling as such- and still retain her humanity. Madoka's mother has not accepted any deal with Kyubey, of course, and her very presence counters what is often taken to the narrative stance that all girls must become witches if they try to achieve their dreams. She is also something of a link to the real world, so to speak, a non-magical character who is the living evidence you can achieve a kind of happiness without resorting to deals that eventually do away with your humanity.

I view the contract and the power it grants more of hubris in an almost literal sense as it is an over-reaching of one's limits.

As for the corruption all magical girls face, I think we should keep in mind that while Kyubey is obviously not to be trusted, the way he compares the energy released by a witch as fuel is very telling. Kyubey has no interest in harming the girls in itself, he has no malice- which is one of the reasons why he is such a weirdly formidable villain- but is simply complying with a system in which employing magical energy creates something akin to pollution which in turn taints the magical girls. In a closed system this accumulation of pollution eventually can no longer be averted and thus a witch is born. In other words, I do not see the girls becoming witches as an implication that they are evil. On the contrary, whether they are pure hearted or not, being a magical girl leads to their falling into despair partially because on some level they have become part of a system that treats them as energy providers and nothing else. Whatever they may feel, want, or care for, all that eventually becomes moot as the system negates their humanity even if their intentions were good.

I really like how you have addressed her mother's role of being an example. After considering the conversations that Madoka has with her mother concerning the future, it seems solid to consider her mother as a central part of the notion of achieving one's dreams or happiness.

Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

deeds24 wrote:

I really like how you have addressed her mother's role of being an example. After considering the conversations that Madoka has with her mother concerning the future, it seems solid to consider her mother as a central part of the notion of achieving one's dreams or happiness.

There are also scenes that directly connect the mother with adulthood such as the morning routine moment that includes a detailed display of her makeup paraphernalia and that time when she is drinking. By her own admission, drinking is a grownup's previlege an example of how she has achieved a balance between the personal and professional aspects of her life as well as a perhaps even more difficult- but precious- balance between her individual self and others.

As much as I appreciate her character and what she brings to the series and to the series as a whole, there is one particular instance that still bothers me.When the storm- that is actually Walpurgis night- had caused everyone to evacuate to a shelter, Madoka is trying to slip out of the shelter when her mother spots her. What follows is a confrontation on the stairs in which Madoka's mother tries to dissuade her daughter from going out into the very dangerous storm while Madoka stands her ground and convinces her that she must in order to help her friend.This scene makes sense in the series as it shows Madoka's resolve thus being a character development moment. But from the mother's point of view, it becomes utterly insane. Madoka's mother does not know about witches, kyubey, magical girls or anything even remotely along those lines. What she does know is that there is a big storm going on and her daughter is dead set on leaving the shelter. Under these circumstances, no mother would allow it. Even if Madoka were older, it still flies so much in the face of reason that it boggles the mind.

To be fair, this kind of phenomenon is not uncommon in anime. Very often parents or adult parent figures will try to avoid their children or wards from doing something potentially dangerous (or at least something they had never done before) only to be convinced by the sense of determination they see in them. This tends to lead to bittersweet reflections as the parents realize their children are growing up and will not need them as much in the future.When done right, these moments can be all around great but in this case it struck me as too much. It is not as if Madoka's mother is forced to accept her daughter's role in saving the world like in some mecha shows or even in Digimon Tamers, since she is left in the dark- having only a feeling that something is off- her actions amounts to letting her daughter waltz off into one of the most dangerous storms in living memory for some insane reasons- what exactly can Madoka do to help anyone when the very city has had to be evacuated?

Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Nocturnalux wrote:

deeds24 wrote:

I really like how you have addressed her mother's role of being an example. After considering the conversations that Madoka has with her mother concerning the future, it seems solid to consider her mother as a central part of the notion of achieving one's dreams or happiness.

There are also scenes that directly connect the mother with adulthood such as the morning routine moment that includes a detailed display of her makeup paraphernalia and that time when she is drinking. By her own admission, drinking is a grownup's previlege an example of how she has achieved a balance between the personal and professional aspects of her life as well as a perhaps even more difficult- but precious- balance between her individual self and others.

As much as I appreciate her character and what she brings to the series and to the series as a whole, there is one particular instance that still bothers me.When the storm- that is actually Walpurgis night- had caused everyone to evacuate to a shelter, Madoka is trying to slip out of the shelter when her mother spots her. What follows is a confrontation on the stairs in which Madoka's mother tries to dissuade her daughter from going out into the very dangerous storm while Madoka stands her ground and convinces her that she must in order to help her friend.This scene makes sense in the series as it shows Madoka's resolve thus being a character development moment. But from the mother's point of view, it becomes utterly insane. Madoka's mother does not know about witches, kyubey, magical girls or anything even remotely along those lines. What she does know is that there is a big storm going on and her daughter is dead set on leaving the shelter. Under these circumstances, no mother would allow it. Even if Madoka were older, it still flies so much in the face of reason that it boggles the mind.

To be fair, this kind of phenomenon is not uncommon in anime. Very often parents or adult parent figures will try to avoid their children or wards from doing something potentially dangerous (or at least something they had never done before) only to be convinced by the sense of determination they see in them. This tends to lead to bittersweet reflections as the parents realize their children are growing up and will not need them as much in the future.When done right, these moments can be all around great but in this case it struck me as too much. It is not as if Madoka's mother is forced to accept her daughter's role in saving the world like in some mecha shows or even in Digimon Tamers, since she is left in the dark- having only a feeling that something is off- her actions amounts to letting her daughter waltz off into one of the most dangerous storms in living memory for some insane reasons- what exactly can Madoka do to help anyone when the very city has had to be evacuated?

As for the concept movie, it is Princess Tutu meets Rahxephon.

Every time I watch the series I try to understand how Madoka's rhetoric could be persuasive enough towards her mother in the mentioned scene. Each time I see it I'm left a bit confused as to how she is convinced to allow her to enter the storm. I guess Madoka's argument was enough to convince her mother, but not necessarily the audience. Thank you for sharing this since I always found that scene a bit difficult to understand since I never fully bought into it.

Re: Puella Magi Madoka Magica

I am glad I was not the only one who found the storm scene to be less that believable. I agree that Madoka's argumentation is there for the sake of the audience and only makes sense seen in that regard.

I need to rewatch the series one of these days while Rebellion is still fresh in my mind. Which reminds me, Rebellion spoilers ahead:

[The bulk of the movie takes place in an imaginary world created by Homura's wish and it doubles as her witch labyrinth even if it is much more detailed and coherent than the typical labyrinth, as Kyubey mentions. Homura herself is seen in a see-through coffin where Kyubey and co. have trapped her in a state of stasis and she is holding a black rose staff. It may a coincidence but I somehow doubt it. Homura's situation is very akin to that of the Black Rose duelists whose growth is arrested and who are frozen in a certain state. The black rose seems to herald her descent into darkness that forms the climax of the movie.]