Great point Jamoni, and I was going to write this last time and thought better of it, because it might step on someones toes, but your point is well taken. This is what I see. In all the dojo's I have ever trained in except in Aikido you knew "who THE MAN was" He was the one who could kick everyones but in the dojo and everyone knew it. Its usually always Sensei and his most Senior or his favorite, and everyone usually recogonizes this. So in order TO BE THE MAN you got to BEAT THE MAN. Its a sort of respect but its common in many dojo. How many times have you seen an eager Brown Belt try to go after a Black Belt. Aikido just doesn't have this factor. There is no man in the Aikido dojo and they don't want there to be. I have seen Black Belts in other styles come in and just laugh at the infrastructure of the dojo, mainly because there is NO MAN and its hard to look up to everyone wearing a Hakima, and you can't tell the shodan from the yondan. This attitude leads alot of Black Belts in Aikido to think there are THE MAN without having to fight for it

Those are two interesting points that I've never considered before, guys. I'm not sure I understand them though. I've trained for quite a while in ju jutsu and there is a similar situation (as regards training) within that art as is found in aikido, yet the efficacy of ju jutsu is rarely questioned. Why is that?

Cato.......Once again I don't know. In all my training in all the areas I have trained in,Aikido and Jujutsu don't subscribe to this heiarchy, and I don't know why. But I did run in to it at a Hakko Ryu Jujutsu school once, where they were very arrogant that their Jujutsu was better than any karate around, and wouldn't allow me to strike at all. Funny thing was Hakko Ryu has strikes in it, but they knew they would be out punched. The Brown belt in the school was the school bad ass, so he thought and didn't show any respect to the elders, or myself, even though completely outmatched. But in either art, you don't have to prove on a nightly basis, how good you are, like in karate. In my early Kempo days we sparred every night, and were always compared against one another. Aikido and Jujutsu don't do this, its how far you have personally come along, which is good, but can lead to an over inflated opinion of yourself, because you never have to prove yourself. How many times in Aikido have you seen say a Black belt be outshined by a Brown Belt with some other training, I have seen this on numerous occasions, and the art does not compensate for this type of situation. In Karate that Brown Belt would face the Black Belt and everyone would see who was better. It's just different I guess. Still I think its a mind-set thing. Aikido and Jujutsu are more formally set up and focus on one's improvement and not comparison in the dojo

Cato....I just had another thought, my one for the year. There is an established relationship between uke and nage, one that they feed off each other. What hurts, what doesn't what works what needs tweaking. In karate there usually isn't that feedback, you are your partner's punching bag and he yours. In some cases dialog is exchanged but very few insights aregiven to what you do, like that punch didn't hurt, or you missed my psolar plexis, type thing. in the Jujutsu/Aiki arts that relationship is always give and take, no winner, in Karate each one wants to feel as if won. I think that may be part of it too. My good friend who studied Judo for years and then started karate later in life confided to me he missed the relationship he had with his training partners, that Karate didn't offer the SAME type of relationship. I think that may be our answer.

Time for a beating up a girl story. When I started Aikido, I said very little about my previous training. One senior student had a habit of talking sh#t and belittling her training partners: "My locks are perfect, my takedowns rock, your "energy" sucks, etc." She also had a tendency to crank her locks and talk smack after you tapped. A week into class, she pulled this crap with me. I spun out of the "lock", kicked her legs out from under her, and axe kicked her in the belly. Her attitude improved tremendously, (and so did her locking technique). IF I WAS A BEGINNING MARTIAL ARTIST, she would have ruined me for good. It's easy to be smug in your defenses when no one ever tests them.

Was she tall and Brunette, I had the same problem with her. Just kidding though I think there is one in every dojo. Go too hard and your "manhandling" them too easy and you are being chauvanistic. I wonder if its an Aikido thing, the women who I trained with in karate are really good partners, but have never had a good female partner in Aiki, and haven't ever trained with a female in Jujutsu except my students, so I wonder.

See, eventually we get back to questioning whether or not aikido is an effective MA, or whether practitioners learn to apply it effectively. And Why? because it doesn't have sparring like karate does. I think this is where our opinions begin to diverge.

No, No, No, I don't think so. I think we see things the same way but are expressing them differently. I am talking mind-set. I don't think sparring in Karate has any effect on whether Aikido is or is not effective. I just think they think differently. And if you go some Karate type threads you will find they are in disagreement over the use of sparring, one says its the essence of Karate, the other say sparring is not reality fighting. I personally will not put myself into that debate. You can't question something like that from words behind a keyboard, you must see their words in action.Having digressed, there is a definite difference in mind-set between Aikido and Karate, and Aikido and Jujutsu for that manner. It its purest form, we are all doing the same thing, handling an attack with our empty hands, after that approach and mind-set change the way it looks.The weakness in Aikido is not the fact that they don't spar, its how they practice, and the mind set they take. I dont think its Aikido that is weak, I think its how they do it, that is. That is not to say everyone is that way, but when you see an effective Aikidoka, you usually say its Aiki-Jujutsu. For my money, people have taken O'Sensei's final years and have slapped that mind set to Aikido, which now becomes art form versus martial art. The early years of Uysheiba were particularly effective(as we have discussed before)and could still be if one chose to do it. The sparring of Karate does set up a heiarchy in the dojo, and Aikido doesn't apply this, therefore the heiarchy in an Akido dojo can lead to anyone who trains a bit harder than anyone else to take on the role as "top dog" whether he is or not. Most schools I have seen just allow this behavior, where in a Karate school it wouldn't stand. Its all mind set, not anything else.

I have no doubts that Aikido is an effective MA. (this is sure to get me blasted, but I just can't resist!) I just think a lot of granola crunchers and yuppy new agers have turned it into the latest yoga.