The legality of what Putin's doing seems kinda funny to me. We can only really bitch about legality if we're actually going to go ahead with sanctions, and it seems like Germany and most of Europe are pussing out on that, with the U.S. response still being up in the air. Putin's in the wrong, sure, but so what? He and his generals have wargamed the whole scenario and concluded they can get away with taking Crimea, and he's probably right.

"The sanity of the plan is of no consequence!" - "And why is that?" - "Because he can DO it!" and all that jazz.

03-17-2014

Llamas

I still don't know enough about Ukraine to have much of an opinion, but I can understand how difficult their situation is in a way. The people I've met from Ukraine have gone on and on about how grateful they are to be out of there... telling me awful stories about their childhoods - one girl I met said she wished she could take all the people from Slovenia and switch them geographically with all the Ukrainians for just one month. She said she wanted to show Slovenians that what they complain about every day is meaningless and show them how bad things can be - and she wanted to show Ukrainians that life can actually be good.

Considering everything I've heard about what it's like in Ukraine, and how their government doesn't seem to be trying to do much to improve things, I can see why the people would desire to seek help from greater powers... and it happens that the greater powers with interest in Ukraine are the EU and Russia.

On one hand, Russia is horribly messed up, with a huge, huge class divide and the majority living in poverty... they have a totalitarian government and Putin has made it quite clear that he wishes to sort of bring the post-soviet countries back together.

On the other hand, the EU is in a bad situation and can not provide Ukraine with what Russia can.

It's a really shitty "stuck between a rock and a hard place" situation. I personally support the EU and am opposed to the Russian government regarding their actions and intentions, but the EU is failing and I don't think it's prepared to properly help Ukraine at this point. Then there's also the cultural aspect, with eastern Ukraine being a lot more tied to Russia, and western Ukraine being a lot more tied to Europe - and that just complicates things more.

When it comes to things like voting with Russian guns pointed at them... that kind of aggression and push is coming from both sides. Both the EU and Russia are rather aggressive right now. But it is hard to say which side is pushing harder, which is creating more influence, etc.

So, I can't really say what I think Ukraine should do. I'm also completely clueless on whether or not the country is divided enough to split into east/west. It doesn't sound like it is, but my perspective is far too limited. All I can really do is sympathize. I can't imagine what it's like in Ukraine, and how desperate many Ukrainians must be. It sounds like they did the right thing in trying to oust the Prime Minister, but now they've got a huge situation to deal with. I wish them the best and hope that whichever direction they go in is the one that leads them to a brighter future.

03-17-2014

Duskygrin

If we are to question the legitimacy of anything, then surely the current Ukrainian government should come under scrutiny. The whole revolution that took place in Ukraine and the deposal of Yanukovich (corrupt as he may be) was orchestrated by the West. It galls them that Russia should intervene outside its geographical boundaries, it galls them that Putin has for years been entertaining expansionist views (it isn't a secret that he has long deemed the collapse of the Soviet Union the "greatest catastrophe of the 20th C") but they must take it or lump it.

I've heard that somewhere around 95% of Crimea citizens voted to secede. I have trouble ignoring that fact. That's the overwhelming will of the people right there. I think almost nothing should trump the right to self-determination.

03-17-2014

Paint_It_Black

Quote:

Originally Posted by bighead384

I think almost nothing should trump the right to self-determination.

What if people unanimously voted to ban self-determination? Just joking.

Did you know North Korea had an election recently? One hundred percent voter turnout and every single person voted for Kimmy. Not joking.

03-17-2014

Duskygrin

What other choice was there? Kim or death?

03-17-2014

Llamas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paint_It_Black

What if people unanimously voted to ban self-determination? Just joking.

Did you know North Korea had an election recently? One hundred percent voter turnout and every single person voted for Kimmy. Not joking.

Yep. And it's a different but similar situation if you look at Egypt - the people are so, so uneducated that they really have no clue what's going on and basically voted back in the very ones who just got ousted due to protests. The idea that what the people vote for must be the best solution is a lovely idea, but it's not always so black and white.

03-17-2014

XYlophonetreeZ

I don't really think the Crimean referendum mirrors the North Korea "elections" at all. I pretty much agree with bighead about it being their will, and I'm a bit worried that once again, the US will look bad for playing tough-guy with Putin, especially considering that alleged liberals such as Obama are sort of supposed to champion the wishes of minority and diaspora groups.

My only slight problem is, why the opportunism? Crimea has actually been an autonomous republic for quite some time. They had a pro-Russian president in Ukraine. They could have put up this vote years ago without dire consequences. They've passed up on years of opportunities to have referendums such as this and to have their voices heard.

03-18-2014

Duskygrin

Until now there weren't any sound legal bases for that. Now there are. Those who seized power in Kiev did so anticonstitutionally.

03-19-2014

Llamas

Quote:

Originally Posted by XYlophonetreeZ

I don't really think the Crimean referendum mirrors the North Korea "elections" at all. I pretty much agree with bighead about it being their will, and I'm a bit worried that once again, the US will look bad for playing tough-guy with Putin, especially considering that alleged liberals such as Obama are sort of supposed to champion the wishes of minority and diaspora groups.

My only slight problem is, why the opportunism? Crimea has actually been an autonomous republic for quite some time. They had a pro-Russian president in Ukraine. They could have put up this vote years ago without dire consequences. They've passed up on years of opportunities to have referendums such as this and to have their voices heard.

It's not the same as North Korea's "elections", but it does seem similar to when Russia gained control of the Baltic countries in 1940...