In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice? I myself find occasional use beneficial if approached properly, however I can understand how such heightened states of consciousness can lead to attachment and confusion. If taken not for the actual state of intoxication but rather for the understanding it brings to normal life, I feel these tools can be quite beneficial. Further, were it not for such experiences I feel I would never have ended up a Buddhist, though like all vessels, I know these things must eventually be discarded. I'm interested to hear what you folks think.

Do they help you to understand the impermanence and unreliability of all phenomena, and to end clinging and aversion? I kinda doubt it. More likely to take you down some colorful and appealing but useless sideroads I think, and that's just more samsara. Real insight needs to be found in reality as it is, not when viewed through psilocybin-tinted goggles.

Moth wrote:In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice?

In my humble opinion, yes. The aim of the practice is to awaken to reality. The last thing we need is a substance that not only distorts reality for a given period of time, but also may fool us into believing that we've had certain experiences that may not have been so. I feel we must be sharp without the aid of anything, except the knowledge and skill of the Buddha's teachings. That way we know that we are facing experience with all of our strengths and weaknesses...as we are. With that knowledge there can be no fooling ourselves.

Moth wrote:Further, were it not for such experiences I feel I would never have ended up a Buddhist...

For a long time I believed this about myself. Now I'm not sure, but I will/can never rule it out.

I look back on the times I used mushrooms and various other substances and I smile. It was a lot of fun. But I see no use for it any longer.

Moth wrote:In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice? I myself find occasional use beneficial if approached properly, however I can understand how such heightened states of consciousness can lead to attachment and confusion. If taken not for the actual state of intoxication but rather for the understanding it brings to normal life, I feel these tools can be quite beneficial. Further, were it not for such experiences I feel I would never have ended up a Buddhist, though like all vessels, I know these things must eventually be discarded. I'm interested to hear what you folks think.

Yes, they break up the fifth precet.

There Buddha teached us how to get in blissfull states, it is called samadhi.

There is a natural blissfull state that can be achieved trough samadhi at any time. It is better then any sex, any drug, any mundane pleasure that exist. The only supirior is the beggining of sammasamadhi.

Well, I could be wrong but I think the original precept deals only with alcohol, and so a stubborn person could use that as an excuse to do other drugs and not be technically wrong, though you don't need to tell me that in order to act with the intended spirit of the precept we should abstain from all mind-altering drugs in general.

Kenshou wrote:Do they help you to understand the impermanence and unreliability of all phenomena, and to end clinging and aversion? I kinda doubt it. More likely to take you down some colorful and appealing but useless sideroads I think, and that's just more samsara. Real insight needs to be found in reality as it is, not when viewed through psilocybin-tinted goggles.

It has often been the case that they take me down, as you say, colorful but useless side roads, more so when I first began using them. However now it just shows me my ego, shows me my habits, my patterns, and allows me to overcome them through this recognition. The experience itself is transient, all sensual pleasure is useless, the only benefit is the necessary surrender. The last time I used mushrooms I went to this park alone, sat, and meditated. It was not at all pleasant but I just kept sitting there, regardless of the sensations, remaining detached yet mindful. The enjoyable aspect was coming down, coming back to reality, and being able to apply this new understanding I had of myself.

This is just more Samsara, but isn't everything?. Ultimately though, I agree that real insight does need to be found in reality, without external aid. Psychedelics are most certainly an attachment that I should let go of.

May you be happy, may you be at peace, may you be free from suffering,-Moth

Last edited by Moth on Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Moth wrote:In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice? I myself find occasional use beneficial if approached properly, however I can understand how such heightened states of consciousness can lead to attachment and confusion. If taken not for the actual state of intoxication but rather for the understanding it brings to normal life, I feel these tools can be quite beneficial. Further, were it not for such experiences I feel I would never have ended up a Buddhist, though like all vessels, I know these things must eventually be discarded. I'm interested to hear what you folks think.

Moth wrote:In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept

Yes.

Moth wrote:and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice?

Without question.

Moth wrote:I myself find occasional use beneficial if approached properly, however I can understand how such heightened states of consciousness can lead to attachment and confusion.

They're not heightened states of conscious, they're altered states of consciousness. You might perceive them as higher than normal consciousness at the time because, well, you're high. If you use those substances again, try writing down all of those deep thoughts, really ramble on for a few pages, then read them a few days later when you're sober. I think you'll find a few pages of complete gibberish.

The practice taught by the Buddha involves examining the regular old everyday mind. I don't see how chemically altering the state of mind can help with that.

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus

Moth I'm sorry most of the posts on here are rather dismissive. These drugs can be rather radically mind changing at least for a temporary period. And it's not a simple high but actual perception changes I believe. I even had a call to buddhism on one experience on mushrooms. It also (can) teach people to love and that the ego is a fragmentary thing. It can even show you about the body. I don't agree with anyone (who might state it) however that they are a part of the path. I think they are not a part of the path and are to be discarded and blotted out and smudgened... abolished eradicated anhilated etc. etc. etc. I think you should just stop doing them and move on without especially condemning them as ignorant until you see the idiocy yourself (I'm still working on it myself).

Moth wrote:Further, were it not for such experiences I feel I would never have ended up a Buddhist, though like all vessels, I know these things must eventually be discarded. I'm interested to hear what you folks think.

All the substance abusers I know are not Buddhists, and I, the only one who didn't use any, is. (Only tried a bit)Also, many of them get mental health problems...

Tex wrote:They're not heightened states of conscious, they're altered states of consciousness. You might perceive them as higher than normal consciousness at the time because, well, you're high. If you use those substances again, try writing down all of those deep thoughts, really ramble on for a few pages, then read them a few days later when you're sober. I think you'll find a few pages of complete gibberish.

Though this is generally true, there have been instances in which I've used substances and found both novel solutions to programming problems and rather interesting ideas for future applications. They alter your perceptions in such a way that you can look at a problem at a different perspective than that of a sober mind.

A 'heightened' state of consciousness IS an 'altered' state of consciousness by definition. Sleep is an 'altered' state of consciousness, so are deep states of meditation. Labelling some states as 'higher' and others as not is arbitrary.

The practice taught by the Buddha involves examining the regular old everyday mind. I don't see how chemically altering the state of mind can help with that.

Observing phenomena in one state of mind, and comparing the observation of the same phenomena in another state of mind leads to some insight about the nature of that phenomena. When observing the dramatic perceptive changes induced with substances such as LSD or Psilocybin, including changes in the very way we see ourselves, it can lead to some rather stunning insights into how the mind behaves.

These substances should not be carelessly abused, but you cannot simply dismiss their value.