I am sure shoot troughs happen. But as in the incident in new york recently bystanders are more likely to be hit by the bullets you miss with than a shoot trough. As for one guy getting 19 times with FMJ and not going down immediately show me the evidence that the outcome would have being any different if they used different hand gun calibers or bullets . ? PS i wouldn't get to concerned in what bullet type to use i would be more concerned that i could put the round accurately into the target. Avoiding missing and hitting a bystander.

Are you saying that a 9MM hollow pint has the same lethality as a 9MM fmj? I have personally seen the firearms discharge report on the Diallo shooting. It specifically states the fmj round the officers were using contributed to the amount of shots fired, due to Diallo not going down and the rounds that passed through him ricochetting BACK at the officers. The job had been trying to go to hollow points for years, but the usual anti-cop rabble rousers protested it. In spite of that, the job could no longer issue fmj ammo after the Diallo shooting. 2 of the 4 officers had Combat Crosses, meaning they had been in shootouts before, so these guys weren't poorply trained, trigger happy boobs.

17 of the 19 shots that hit Diallo were not fatal. One of the ones that WAS fatal nicked an aorta so he bled internally, but he lived for 15-20 minutes after the shooting (died en route to the hospital). 17 shots at a range of less than 5 yards and he would have lived.

As for the recent NY shooting where bystanders were hit, the VAST majority of those hit (if not all) were hit with fragments from rounds bouncing off the concrete. I would wager a fmj round would have not broken up as much.

Are you saying that a 9MM hollow pint has the same lethality as a 9MM fmj? I have personally seen the firearms discharge report on the Diallo shooting. It specifically states the fmj round the officers were using contributed to the amount of shots fired, due to Diallo not going down and the rounds that passed through him ricochetting BACK at the officers. The job had been trying to go to hollow points for years, but the usual anti-cop rabble rousers protested it. In spite of that, the job could no longer issue fmj ammo after the Diallo shooting. 2 of the 4 officers had Combat Crosses, meaning they had been in shootouts before, so these guys weren't poorply trained, trigger happy boobs

That doesn't answer my question. Show me evidence that if hollow points were used that the outcome would have different. As for him not going down people can be shot numerous times with handgun ammo and not go down. If they want to have a better change of putting someone down then they should be using a rifle.

Quote:

17 shots at a range of less than 5 yards and he would have lived.

If someone is hit 30 times with any popular handgun ammo there is no guarantee that he will go down. Hollow points or fmj. PS The authorities here must think fmj is effective as its the only ammo allowed for self defence

PS The only reason that expanding handgun ammo might be marginally more effective than FMJ is the increase in diameter. But not as much as ammo manufacturers like us to think and pay the extra for.

In a recent incident here one well placed 9mm round was enough expanding ammo or FMJ the outcome would have the same see bellow.

A post-mortem examination has described the cause of death as a bullet wound to the chest.

Assistant state pathologist Dr James Lyness said the bullet had penetrated his chest and cut the main pumping chamber of his heart before lodging in muscles in his back.

I don't think that anyone would say that FMJ can't be lethal or can't stop a fight. I would say that modern JHPs do offer performance advantages over FMJs. One of those advantages is increased bullet diameter being more likely to hit vital areas as it crushes tissue.

FMJ is most certainly not as effective as a hollow point. At least, a hollow point will act the same as a FMJ when it punches through the target. If it expands is definitely does more damage. That's why you shouldn't hunt with FMJ. It punches right through and lets the animal run off and die later.

That doesn't answer my question. Show me evidence that if hollow points were used that the outcome would have different. As for him not going down people can be shot numerous times with handgun ammo and not go down. If they want to have a better change of putting someone down then they should be using a rifle.

Show me evidence a .22 would have resulted in a different outcome. Show me evidence the sky is blue. I've already told you the fmj rounds bouncing back at the cops increased their fire The evidence is extensive thanks to ballastic gelatine. Cops aren't carrying rifles. They have handguns. And right now, the NYPD is limited to 9MM. And hollow point ammo has a BETTER chance of stopping a threat. Most departments have moved from the 9MM to the .40 or the .45 GAP. Show me evidence those calibers are better.

Anyone who says 1 good shot will incapacitate a grown man is either talking about a CNS hit or has never put handgun bullets into living flesh. Also, there is a definite difference in the amount of damage from bullets with different construction.

__________________
CarpriverShOOter
Finch, I don't like guns. Reese, Me either but if someone has to have guns I'd rather it be me. (Person of Interest).
No trees were destroyed in the posting of the this message

Its still a matter of shot placement. A one shot round can incapacitate a bad guy if the shot hits the head/central nervous system. This is not easily because its harder to hit the head or spine than the chest. Even with a good chest hit, death probably won't happen instantly. Until there is enough blood loss or loss of pulse or in the case of a lung hit (lack of oxygen to brain) the bad guy won't dye and can fight on for several minutes. I still say shot placement is the key not ammo.
Howard

- One popular theory of .357 self-defense is that one should use a light hollow-point (125 grain)... The logic is that the light bullet will expand easily and the energy will transfer into the target, and prevent an exit, which may hurt an innocent bystander.

- a second popular theory of .357 self-defense is that one should use a heavy hollow-point (158 grain)... The logic is that the heavy bullet will have less energy therefore less potential to exit the target, this preventing an exit which may hurt an innocent bystander.

In your opinion, which self-defense theory is more valid?

As to penetration of a light hollow point v a heavy hollow point:
There are many variables, but to keep it simple let us assume that the light bullet weighs 125gr. has a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps for an energy of 544 foot pounds; the other weighs 158 gr. and has velocity of 1200 FPS for an energy of 505 foot pounds.

I also assume that the light bullet will deform earlier and to a greater degree than the slower heavier bullet. If the 125 gr bullet deforms to a diameter of .70" is will use its energy crushing tissue sooner and in greater volume per inch of penetration (and penetrate less) than the heavier bullet that deforms to only .60".

While these are not real numbers, they are reasonable approximations of how modern hollow point bullets do perform in crushing vascular tissue.

If you omit the relatively low chance of incapacitation due to hitting the brain or the upper spinal cord (they represent a small volume of the body), then you are left with blood loss as the means of incapacitation. This accounts for at least 90% of incapacitation due to the structure of the body.

Even if what I have assumed is accurate the difference in time to incapacitation of a determined attacker is relatively minor. Even if you do hit the heart a determined attacker can fight and shoot for many seconds, perhaps as long as 30 seconds. In effect the time to incapacitation difference is minor compared to what you shoot better in your handgun.

In summary, all defensive handgun cartridges suck so choose the one you shoot best.

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat

Man, I get tired of hearing this. Anyone who’s had experience with FOF training, much less actual gunfighting knows that accurate shot placement on an opponent who’s moving and shooting at you while you’re moving is damn near impossible.

Your best bet is to use a handgun chambered for a major caliber that you can shoot well, loaded with the most effective ammo. BTW, the most effective ammo available now is one of the premium JHP loads from a major company.

Man, I get tired of hearing this. Anyone who’s had experience with FOF training, much less actual gunfighting knows that accurate shot placement on an opponent who’s moving and shooting at you while you’re moving is damn near impossible.

This email link is to reach site administrators for assistance, if you cannot access TFL via other means. If you are a TFL member and can access TFL, please do not use this link; instead, use the forums (like Questions, Suggestions, and Tech Support) or PM an appropriate mod or admin.

If you are experiencing difficulties posting in the Buy/Sell/Trade subforums of TFL, please read the "sticky" announcement threads at the top of the applicable subforum. If you still feel you are qualified to post in those subforums, please contact "Shane Tuttle" (the mod for that portion of TFL) via Private Message for assistance.

This email contact address is not an "Ask the Firearms Expert" service. Such emails will be ignored. If you have a firearm related question, please register and post it on the forums.