October 14, 2010

The men... were not confined to the “rescue chamber,” the size of a Manhattan studio apartment...

“They had the run of the mine,” said Jeffery H. Kravitz, acting director for technical support at the United States Mine Safety and Health Administration. With half a mile of tunnels open, he said, “they had places to exercise and to use for waste.” One miner ran several miles a day.

“They even had a sort of waterfall they could take a shower under,” Mr. Kravitz said. “They requested shampoo, and shaved for their families.”

Also, fresh air was pumped in, so asphyxiation was never a danger.... The air was nearly 90 degrees and humid, but it contained about 20 percent oxygen, like outside air. The men dug three wells, and had potable water....

Eventually, all sorts of comfort goods were going down three narrow tubes: dismantled camp beds, clean clothes, letters, movies, dominoes, tiny Bibles, toothbrushes, skin creams. The smokers were first allowed only gum and nicotine patches, but doctors eventually relented and let 40 cigarettes a day go down.

The tubes also accommodated fiber optic cables and, by the end, each miner was getting a daily video consultation with a doctor. They also had jobs to do, including reinforcing walls and clearing debris from the rescue drills.

If the trapped Chilean miners had subscribed to the tea party’s “every-man-for-himself” philosophy, “they would have been killing each other after about two days,” MSNBC host Chris Matthews said on his “Hardball” show Wednesday night....

"You know these people, if they were every man for himself down in that mine, they wouldn't have gotten out.... They would have been killing each other after about two days.”

What that shows is that Matthews — in stereotypical liberal fashion — has forgotten the way private individuals cooperate and help each other. The government and only the government must be the source of all beneficence. If you don't want the government to solve all your problems, you must think you and everyone else can be 100% self-reliant.

ADDED: I've seen some people defending Chris Matthews. First, they ignore the part where he predicts the miners would just start killing each other. Then, they assert with smug confidence that the government saved the miners. They are wrong: The rescue took place the way it did because of the Center Rock drill bit — "a piece of tough technology developed by a small company in it for the money, for profit."

WTF?! Just when you think Matthews can't get any dumber.... Did he pee down his own leg as he said this?

private individuals cooperate and help each other

If you pay attention, you'll see that private individuals are quite effect and efficient. From neighbors helping neighbors, groups working on community projects, to the Salvation Army and other private charities, they almost always out perform the government.

Great post, Professor. Very smart to point out that Chris Matthews' Theology is dumber than a rock; yet we listen to versions of it 24/7 from politcos like Coons. No wonder O'Donnell, and her mentor Sarah Palin, have a message that is drawing attention from common sense Americans who are no longer enamored of BS from the Matthews Religion. The coming election may be a true revolution taking America's Politicos by surprise.

(The Crypto Jew)Ah, it was the Chilean government that rescued them. No private $75 rescue fees...

Uh dood/doodette you realize that the $75 WAS a “government fee,” right? You don’t really want to go into that example and think you’re going to “prove” anything, at least what you might HOPE you’ll be able to demonstrate. IF, you want I’ll be glad to demonstrate what will become “Chumpo-nomics” and then the END of the fire protection for the surrounding area, if the “subscription fee” is waived, at the time of the fire. In short, this example is an excellent example of the failure of liberal/progressive “thought.”

That sounds pretty much how I pictured it. Once the initial hole was opened to them I figured they wouldn't be lacking for creature comforts. I figured they even had email. But I guess I didn't guess that they'd have daily video conferences.

I'm also guessing they had sunlamps like they do in Scandavia in the winter to keep them healthy and whatever else they needed along those lines. It's not like they would have been sitting around in the same clothes for 69 days. Technology today is too good for that.

Someone ought to volunteer to watch MSNBC's election night coverage (it will be heroic work, risking severe brain damage and terminal ennui at least) to report on Matthews's demeanor as it spirals downward through the stages of bereavement -- denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance -- noting the time and circumstance of each.

If those miners had been trapped a half-mile down like this 25 years ago anywhere on earth, they would be dead. What happened over the past 25 years that meant the difference between life and death for those men?

Short answer: the Center Rock drill bit.

This is the miracle bit that drilled down to the trapped miners. Center Rock Inc. is a private company in Berlin, Pa. It has 74 employees. The drill's rig came from Schramm Inc. in West Chester, Pa. Seeing the disaster, Center Rock's president, Brandon Fisher, called the Chileans to offer his drill. Chile accepted. The miners are alive.

Longer answer: The Center Rock drill, heretofore not featured on websites like Engadget or Gizmodo, is in fact a piece of tough technology developed by a small company in it for the money, for profit. That's why they innovated down-the-hole hammer drilling. If they make money, they can do more innovation.

This profit = innovation dynamic was everywhere at that Chilean mine. The high-strength cable winding around the big wheel atop that simple rig is from Germany. Japan supplied the super-flexible, fiber-optic communications cable that linked the miners to the world above.

A remarkable Sept. 30 story about all this by the Journal's Matt Moffett was a compendium of astonishing things that showed up in the Atacama Desert from the distant corners of capitalism.

Samsung of South Korea supplied a cellphone that has its own projector. Jeffrey Gabbay, the founder of Cupron Inc. in Richmond, Va., supplied socks made with copper fiber that consumed foot bacteria, and minimized odor and infection.

If you're going to wait around for government bureaucrats to figure out how to drill a hole a half mile deep you're going to wait a long, long time. Just because government plants itself on top of a situation doesn't mean they do the actual work. Usually it's the people who do actual work that do the actual work, since they know how to get things done.

ann wrote: "What that shows is that Matthews — in stereotypical liberal fashion — has forgotten the way private individuals cooperate and help each other. The government and only the government must be the source of all beneficence."

No argument that Chris is the left's version of Rush and most of us can get by really easy without hearing him. However, your point isn't well made.

Generally there is anarchy when the situation is hopeless. This one wasn't because the government in league with all sorts of private interests, let the miners know - as soon as contact was made - that help was on the way. It was and it was coordinated and very well done.

the government did a good and useful job as did the various others involved.

Garage...This victory in Chile happened because a true leader was their President and he immediately used General Marshal's attitude from Saving Private Ryan, " If those boys are still alive, then we are going to get them the hell out of there." No mention from Chile's President came about first needing a Marxist death Panel to weigh the costs against the value of a few miner's lives. Apparently the divide is not between Hispanic and Anglo. The divide in this hemispere is between Marxists and Catholic/Christian conservatives who value private property and men's lives.

If you're going to wait around for government bureaucrats to figure out how to drill a hole a half mile deep you're going to wait a long, long time.

What the presence of the President and the good sense of the government did was to clear away any roadblocks to letting private industry with the real world class expertise come in and dig those guys out. The government supported the families and got out of the way....

HDHouse said...the government did a good and useful job as did the various others involved.

HD, absolutely. The point was that led my a strong onsite presence, the government, knew what it was competent to do and did it very well, while supporting the drilling crews and preventing anything from getting in the way or success.

This was a magnificent feat by all involved. Don't cheapen it by starting a government v. private war. Both groups brought what was needed for a successful rescue. The Chilean president was humble, magnanimous and deservedly proud of the conduct of the operation and of the miners. Very tough, very honorable people all around.

Those miners would still be down there and dead if not for private industry.

Obviously, the same technology that put them down there would get them back out. The Chilean government took control of the rescue, that's my point. They didn't rely on the drill bit manufacturer to head up the rescue operation. Like we did with BP.

They may have had some comforts of home, but I doubt the vast majority of people want to be trapped a half mile beneath the surface with no guarantee of rescue for two months...no matter how much they can run, shower, and videogame.

HD: That is an interesting but wrong theory. The fact is that the miners had organized themselves before the government showed up at all. Had calculated the amount of food available and had appropriately rationed it as well as the then current amount of potable water. The government was not around. Like good tea party members the Chilean miners fended for themselves until their fellow citizens found them and went to work. The government did its part as well, but in no way was the government involved during the first lonely and frightening days of their ordeal. It would be interesting to see how long a group of lefties would have made it in that situation, prior to the arrival of outside help.

Oh, the Chilean government took control of the rescue, did they? One supposes they directed the drill operators, told them where to drill, how to operate their machinery... all those function we associate with the word control?

(The Crypto Jew)It would be interesting to see how long a group of lefties would have made it in that situation, prior to the arrival of outside help.

We would have formed a Central Committee and several subcommittees…determined the best survival ideology…debated that…determined who best could implement that ideology….debated THAT…given the Central Committee all the food to distribute…argued over various definitions of “just”…purged several members of the Central Committee…the Central Committee would have gained a couple of kilograms…everyone else would have starved…eventually we’d be rescued…we’d write some songs and poetry about it…become big TV stars, we’d blame the mining corporation for all the starvation deaths…we’d be big heroes, feted around the Leftist Blogosphere, get big speaking and writing fees and become even fatter.

Chris the moron wrote:If the trapped Chilean miners had subscribed to the tea party’s “every-man-for-himself” philosophy, “they would have been killing each other after about two days,” MSNBC host Chris Matthews said on his “Hardball” show Wednesday night....

"You know these people, if they were every man for himself down in that mine, they wouldn't have gotten out.... They would have been killing each other after about two days.”

Actually what this shows is a perfect example of the miners LIVING WITHIN THEIR MEANS, something that no liberals who cling to the govt teat, and certainly very few IN govt understand.The miners had to ration their food and sat down and determined that they could only have so much food a day, and so much milk and so much of whatever. Kind of like a budget actually. And they couldn't use more than they had or they would run out and then they would start dying and food was a finite resource.

What that shows is that Matthews — in stereotypical liberal fashion — has forgotten the way private individuals cooperate and help each other. The government and only the government must be the source of all beneficence.

Too true. One of the (many) problems with government aid is that Dems like Chrissy think "why should I give to charity or looka fter my neighborhood when I'm paying the government to do it for me"

"Only a few minutes ago, I had the delightful opportunity to read the comment of a fellow who said he wished that white, middle-class, racist, conservative cocksuckers like myself could have been herded into the Superdome Concentration Camp to see how much we like it. Absent, of course, was the fundamental truth of what he plainly does not have the eyes or the imagination to see, namely, that if the Superdome had been filled with white, middle-class, racist, conservative cocksuckers like myself, it would not have been a refinery of horror, but rather a citadel of hope and order and restraint and compassion.

That has nothing to do with me being white. If the blacks and Hispanics and Jews and gays that I work with and associate with were there with me, it would have been that much better. That’s because the people I associate with – my Tribe – consists not of blacks and whites and gays and Hispanics and Asians, but of individuals who do not rape, murder, or steal. My Tribe consists of people who know that sometimes bad things happen, and that these are an opportunity to show ourselves what we are made of. My people go into burning buildings. My Tribe consists of organizers and self-starters, proud and self-reliant people who do not need to be told what to do in a crisis. My Tribe is not fearless; they are something better. They are courageous. My Tribe is honorable, and decent, and kind, and inventive. My Tribe knows how to give orders, and how to follow them. My Tribe knows enough about how the world works to figure out ways to boil water, ration food, repair structures, build and maintain makeshift latrines, and care for the wounded and the dead with respect and compassion.

There are some things my Tribe is not good at at all. My Tribe doesn’t make excuses. My Tribe will analyze failure and assign blame, but that is to make sure that we do better next time, and we never, ever waste valuable energy and time doing so while people are still in danger. My Tribe says, and in their heart completely believes that it’s the other guy that’s the hero. My Tribe does not believe that a single Man can cause, prevent or steer Hurricanes, and my Tribe does not and has never made someone else responsible for their own safety, and that of their loved ones.

My Tribe doesn’t fire on people risking their lives, coming to help us. My Tribe doesn’t curse such people because they arrived on Day Four, when we felt they should have been here before breakfast on Day One. We are grateful, not to say indebted, that they have come at all. My Tribe can’t eat Nike’s and we don’t know how to feed seven on a wide-screen TV. My Tribe doesn’t give a sweet God Damn about what color the looters are, or what color the rescuers are, because we can plainly see before our very eyes that both those Tribes have colors enough to cover everyone in glory or in shame. My Tribe doesn’t see black and white skins. My Tribe only sees black and white hats, and the hat we choose to wear is the most personal decision we can make.

That’s the other thing, too – the most important thing. My Tribe thinks that while you are born into a Tribe, you do not have to stay there. Good people can join bad Tribes, and bad people can choose good ones. My Tribe thinks you choose your Tribe. That, more than anything, is what makes my Tribe unique."

Oh, the Chilean government took control of the rescue, did they? One supposes they directed the drill operators, told them where to drill, how to operate their machinery... all those function we associate with the word control?

Yes, they did. Or did you think they just said "well, whatever company that wants to come to the site and start drilling and rescuing, go right ahead!". Maybe first come first serve?

Let us ignore that these miners were union members with a sense of solidarity that helped them survive. But we can not ignore The Tea Party /fire department analogy because in this case the morals of helping humanity no matter what fees had been paid won out over Ann Rand's narrow self interest which seems at the heart of the Tea Party.

The Chilean Government, at least PUBLICLY, seemed focused on finding and then rescuing the miners. The US Government seemed focused on blaming BP, shaking BP down for $20 Billion, and using the crisis to secure an oil drilling moratorium in the Gulf and to fan the calls for “renewable energy” as a prime policy. To return to the Chilean example, the Chilean government didn’t seem focused on blaming the mining company and establishing a fund for reparations, and then didn’t use the accident/tragedy as a spring board to shut down Chilean mines to focus on more sustainable industries, such as saw-grass basket weaving.

It's too bad that this tread got hijacked by politics. Everybody, from the miners to private industry to the Chilean gov't did what was necessary to pull the rescue off. The original point of the post was how the miners' conditions weren't as bad as we had come to believe. Well, speaking for myself, I don't care if they were in Carlsbad Caverns with starbucks and McDonalds everywhere. They were TRAPPED UNDERGROUND. For 17 days they had no idea if anyone was even looking for them. And for the next several weeks they were TRAPPED UNDERGROUND, and knew that their only way out, if it worked, was a hole 2300 feet long and hardly bigger than a basketball hoop.

(The Crypto Jew)the morals of helping humanity no matter what fees had been paid won out over Ann Rand's narrow self interest which seems at the heart of the Tea Party.

Which betrays an IGNORANCE of Rand’s philosophy, of which I am no great fan, but it shows YOU have no grasp of what she was “on” about. Her argument was that the focus ON “my self-interest” produced goods and services beneficial to humanity! How many millionaires do Jobs, Wozniak, and Gates have to produce before they’ve “given back” enough, to quote Limbaugh?

As to the TEA Party, so it’s your contention that spending money that we don’t have, burdening our children and grand-children with huge taxes, bloated government, and poor economic growth OR hyper-inflation and a wrecked economy, are somehow “helping humanity?” If you can’t grasp that the US is on its way to becoming Greece, and therefore facing riots in the streets and drastically curtailed lifestyles and futures, I can’t help you. But if you ask me, avoiding fiscal collapse, a la Greece or Argentina, seem rather HUMANE to me.

R V...Ayn Rand is not at the heart of the Tea Party and Ron Paul is not either. Sarah Palin's common sense and attitude is. It was common sense that lead to rescued these imprisoned men under millions of tons of rock. if Obama had been their President, then they would still be down there submitting paper work through Affirmative Action Drones and getting a bums rush of non-answers 6 months later, but told that they to keep electing Obama so all of this nonsense will change, unless of course harmless CO2 is found anywhere, in which case all bets are off.

Too bad Garage has been allowed to hijack the thread again. The issue is whether Tea Partiers in the tunnel would kill and eat each other while Tea Partiers at the top ignored them. The issue is not, did the Chilean government play an organizing role in a successful rescue?

ricpic, I'm surprised they were allowed smokes at all considering what that does to air quality in a place where the air has to be pumped in from half a mile away.

Self interest = An environment where freedom nurtures individuals or groups of individuals to create and provide without over-bearing government oppression. In this case, the freedom to create machines and instruments that save lives.

["This is the miracle bit that drilled down to the trapped miners. Center Rock Inc. is a private company in Berlin, Pa. It has 74 employees. The drill's rig came from Schramm Inc. in West Chester, Pa. Seeing the disaster, Center Rock's president, Brandon Fisher, called the Chileans to offer his drill. Chile accepted. The miners are alive."]

Government control = what can our government do to halt this creativity, and steal it.What can the government do to level the playing field.What can the government do to make life fair?

Just in: The miners were able to survive because the rock walls were all Taupe in color. That lead them to believe that they were in a Man Cave with smokes and videogames. I note in passing that there has been no condemnation of the obvious discrimination against female miner applicants in Chile. They need a Title 7 to mandate full funding of separate but easier mines for female miners.

Even with some running room and creature comforts, the idea that they were trapped and things could possibly cave in again must have weighed heavily.

On the subject of Chrissy Mathews, he started out as a staffer for Democrat pol Tony Coelho right up to the day Coelho was convicted, so he's a long-time jerk. Unlike wine, some things - and people - do not improve with age.

As to the Tea Party, they just want to live in the spirit of the US Constitution. Individual freedom and responsibility, it's a tough concept for some.

roesch-voltaire said...

Let us ignore that these miners were union members with a sense of solidarity that helped them survive. But we can not ignore The Tea Party /fire department analogy because in this case the morals of helping humanity no matter what fees had been paid won out over Ann Rand's narrow self interest which seems at the heart of the Tea Party.

As usual, roesch has it backwards. It's the unions that have the, "I got mine, you get yours", attitude.

Tea Partiers work together the way early Americans did when they had house raisings and formed militia for defense.

The miners were in a dire situation. They didn't wait for some higher authority to organize them, they cooperated with each other to mutual advantage.

This is much like the TEA parties: People felt that the govt. was engaged in out-of-control spending and needed to be resisted. They organized themselves into the tea parties to make this resistance effective.

In spite of GM's misdirection: We see that the subject is not the role the government played in the rescue. The actual subject is the fine manner in which the miners behaved. And why they did so well.

If the trapped Chilean miners had subscribed to the tea party’s “every-man-for-himself” philosophy, “they would have been killing each other after about two days,” MSNBC host Chris Matthews said on his “Hardball” show Wednesday night...

"Dr. Joseph Giordano, who headed the George Washington University Hospital trauma team that operated on Reagan, (after he was shot) recollected the incident in a Los Angeles Times article just a few days after it happened."

3:24 p.m. Reagan was wheeled into the operating room. He had lost about 2,100 cc of blood, but his bleeding had slowed and he had received 4 1/2 replacement units. As he was moved from the stretcher to the operating table, he looked around and said, "Please tell me you're all Republicans." Giordano, a liberal Democrat, said, "We're all Republicans today."

In life and death situations people are capable of extraordinary things. That is true of both liberals and conservatives. The fact that Matthews could not see that says more about him than anything else.

The mischaracterization that Tea Partiers would have killed each under the guise that it's every man for himself really displays the ignorance of what conservativism is about.

The main idea that runs through conservativism is that the "individual" that can do for himself, ought to. Nowhere in this philosphy does it say not to be concerned about your fellow man. Instead, it says, "Live up to your potential!" and with that potential comes abundance for all. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Abundance for all is clearly limited if you rely on squeezing a few to get it.

...in this case the morals of helping humanity no matter what fees had been paid won out over Ann Rand's narrow self interest which seems at the heart of the Tea Party.

On the contrary, the intrest of the Tea Party is the fiscal health of the United States as a whole, or the 'collective' if you prefer. Hardly what I would call self interest but some people need to project since some basic truths aren't self evident.

To Althouse Vortex Members, please ignore DtL…UNLESS s/he happens upon the substance of the thread…..Which I believe is Chilean miners, Chris Matthews, and the Tea party as cannibals. I freely admit I replied, but I hope and pray we can slow him/her down by ignoring it.

DADavocate- (Amazing high tech rock hammer drills!!!) "socks made with copper fiber that consumed foot bacteria, and minimized odor and infection. Chile's health minister, Jaime Manalich, said, "I never realized that kind of thing actually existed."Those miners would still be down there and dead if not for private industry.

I hate to break it to people, but people have been thrown naked in 90 DEG stone dungeons with only water, gruel, and a slop bucket or hole for waste (since the dawn of time) and survived for years.

Matthews was wrong. All the John Galtians here were wrong as well because "sacred superwhammadyne high tech copper-infused socks and other miracle tech" had nothing to do with it. Even Garage is wrong a bit in the sense that if it was government and only government involved, using only 1920s technology, the miners likely would have had to wait another month or so for rescue.

What helped was like prisoners in a dungeon, the men organized and supported one another. And Chilean society, (not the profit motive, free markets, free trade, and the recorded wisdom of Hayek and Sarah Palin) rallied behind them.

"Generally there is anarchy when the situation is hopeless. This one wasn't because the government in league with all sorts of private interests, let the miners know - as soon as contact was made - that help was on the way. It was and it was coordinated and very well done."

What if no one had ever reached them and they lived there together with no contact with the outside world for the rest of their lives? What scenario do you picture? Everyone killing everyone else, everyone solacing everyone? What? I don't believe things would completely break down. Frankly, I think people would have a profound religious experience. And I think order would be carefully maintained. Maybe a little cannibalism.

Even Garage is wrong a bit in the sense that if it was government and only government involved, using only 1920s technology, the miners likely would have had to wait another month or so for rescue.

All I said was the Chilean government put forth an effective response to the mine collapse. It wasn't left to the mining company to deal with. The mine is being closed by the way, which presumably is the result of it being an unsafe mine. Obviously. I can't imagine ordinary Chileans kvetched "They're trying to shake down this poor mining company!", or "we MUST apologize to the mining company for hurting their poor feelings!".

It’s kind of the myth/meme/trope(???) that the elites tell themselves and us that when things go bad, that people will riot, lose all control, chaos will ensue. That does NOT seem to be the case, 9/11 or the fire bombings of Tokyo demonstrate that people DO NOT simply run amok. They may be over-whelmed, they may focus solely on their plight, but it’s not chaotic…

People are tribal, social…this idea that in an emergency they are simply going to descend into some “war of all against all” is not exactly true. Generally people organize their tribe and try to survive…in this case, the tribe was an all-inclusive group of 30-plus miners. In Somalia and Lebanon, “my tribe” existed, but it did NOT include you and so you and I fought like cats and dogs over the spoils. But they fighting is STILL an outgrowth of the social nature of humans.

(The Crypto Jew)Obviously. I can't imagine ordinary Chileans kvetched "They're trying to shake down this poor mining company!", or "we MUST apologize to the mining company for hurting their poor feelings!".

Neither did the Chilean Government impose a six month moratorium on the opening of new mines, even when its panel of experts did NOT recommend such actions. Nor did Chilean commentators a la Matthews wonder why the mining “disaster” had not spurred support for the Regime’s “Renewable Energy” programs and lament how the Chilean People were blind to the necessity of such a program.

Professor, you shouldn't fall for the Matthews schtick. Matthews knows that dumb statements about conservatives will generate publicity and cement his position the the MSM cool kid's club. You shouldn't indulge him.

(The Crypto Jew)So they just woke up to this when Obama was elected huh?

No, you ignore “Pork Busters” and complaints from the Right thru out the Bush years, but you already know this. You just thought you could slip it in unnoticed, no doubt. Of course, the fact that the debt and deficit climb to astronomic levels under Obama does provide a spur.

No, you’re right Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were prime sources of today’s problems, problems Chris Doo and Barney Frank-gosh what WERE their party affiliations- defended both. Of course the Community Reinvestment Act, passed under Carter, gosh was he a “D” or an “R”, and funded and overseen by Cuomo in the Clinton Administration (Gosh “D” or “R”, again?) helped a great deal. So you’re right “spending” isn’t why we’re here…of course the spending isn’t getting us out of here, either.

Of course I stand corrected on spending being the cause of the financial crisis. If I were a true believer in Keynesian economics, the massive spending by the Bush administration should have resulted in a massive economic boom.

Of course I stand corrected on spending being the cause of the financial crisis. If I were a true believer in Keynesian economics, the massive spending by the Bush administration should have resulted in a massive economic boom.

I don't think you know what Keynesian economics is. It's not the amount of dollars you spend. It's where it's targeted.

Perhaps you should consider just why it is that each time you opine upon something, its shown that your assumptions are all utterly wrong. It might be enlightening to you.

yea I hear that a lot, but almost never even hear the counter argument.

I'm a Tea Partier, and I remember, during the Northridge earthquake, that the working stiffs, black white and brown, looked around once the shaking stopped... and went to work fixing what they could fix around them, whether it was making sure their customers were uninjured and had someplace safe to sit, that their families were safe, that their neighbors were alright, or getting on with just cleaning up the mess as best we could. I remember them escorting people out of darkened buildings by the light of car headlights when that was all we had, or wheeling copy machines out the front door of Kinkos on extension cords so people so copy their insurance documentation for free.

I also remember one group, that looked like a focus group for Starbucks, i.e., Matthews' audience, walking down the street the next morning not doing a goddammed thing but offering opinions: "Oh, my God, why did they shovel the broken glass there?"

If I got a choice between getting stuck in a crisis with Tea Partiers or Chris Matthews and his ilk, make mine Lipton's.

(The Crypto Jew)I don't think you know what Keynesian economics is. It's not the amount of dollars you spend. It's where it's targeted.

Really so you’re saying that spending the money on teachers and public employees unions was smart targeted spending? Would you care to point out the wonderful targeted nature of the Porkulus bill, and if its spending was so marvelous and good why we needed a second jobs bill and now are preparing for a $50 Billion dollar paving and runway bill?

yea I hear that a lot, but almost never even hear the counter argument.It’s fairly obvious you never hear the counter-argument, or rather that you never listen to it.

JoeObviously you have no clue what the stimulus was even spent on. Just coughed up talking points, post after post after post. Who said the stimulus was spent right? I think it could have been spent better, as do most liberal economists I know. Where do you guys get this crap?

Enlighten me Garage, what WAS the Porkulus bill spent on….in my state it went to cover the hole in the state budget. And isn’t it interesting, NOW you and all those “liberal economists” think the Porkulus Bill could have been better targeted/spent…gee didn’t hear that then, No it was we must act NOW! And what makes you think that the Porkulus Bill WASN’T spent as planned…to prop up state and local budgets? Did you think that Pelosi and Reid were economists or that the Democrats in Congress were? Or that they could write a decent, economically targeted and sane bill? If so why? In short you trusted Pelosi and Reid to do the right thing, and I’M THE FOOL? You’re funny, you’re akin to the guys and galz who talk about how Communism/Socialism just hasn’t been tired by the “right people.” Sure this Keynesian thing just hasn’t been tried by the RIGHT people, right? Sure FDR and Obama failed, but give you and yours another $787 Billion and this time it’ll go swimmingly. Do you believe the stuff you spout? Really?

The mine is operated by a state run company, now under investigation). The company ( state run) attempted but later step back not to pay the miners while they were under because they weren't working( unfortunately for Yonni Salgo the continued paying)

A foreign observer some 170 years ago wrote a great book on America--in it he described the cooperative spirit that existed when there was only minimal government presence in the community. It seems that some commenters including mr Mathews have not read it or if they did have not understood it.

Democracy in America--Alexis Toqueville for those who have no idea what the reference is.

That said, perhaps you can appreciate the reluctance of some of us to support more spending when even a liberal like you admits they didn't do it right the first time.

It's a consumer recession, too few have either money, jobs, and too many have too much debt. I think a full payroll tax cut for employees and employers would be a huge boost to the economy. And add a ton of jobs. That's why it will never get done.

--in it he described the cooperative spirit that existed when there was only minimal government presence in the community..

Am rereading Thoreau's Civil Disbedience which I first read a zillion years ago and which, at the time, I did not appreciate.

Opening paragraph-

I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war, the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.

Excerpt from 2nd paragraph:

Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. It does not keep the country free. It does not settle the West. It does not educate. The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way.

Limbaugh did an extended riff on the Matthews comment that sounded exactly like Althouse. Coincidence?.....Compare and contrast the mine safety records of Communists vs capitalist countries.... Nonetheless, I think the dividing line is not capitalism vs socialism but democracy vs totalitarianism. In a free society, the abuses and failures are there for all to see. In a closed society, whether the mine is owned by the state or by a connected plutocrat, such disasters are swept under the rug.

Meanwhile, if the AFL-CIO had been trapped in the mine, and they'd gotten word that neither the holes were drilled by union labor nor was the Phoenix I made in a union shop, they'd still be down there in an act of "defiant solidarity."

"It's a consumer recession, too few have either money, jobs, and too many have too much debt. I think a full payroll tax cut for employees and employers would be a huge boost to the economy. And add a ton of jobs. That's why it will never get done."

Sounds an awful lot like what O'Donnell said during the debate that she thought should be done.

Off thread comment: Women complain about the glass ceiling, but the dirt basement goes unmentioned. Why are not women clamoring for equal representation in this dirty, dangerous job? Don't we all wish to live in the kind of egalitarian society where women perish on the job in numbers equal to men?

To Garage and RTO and others with snide "$75" comments: RE-read the story. The local city has fire protection for city residents. Outside the city, in the county, people have to pay $75 a year for fire protection. The home owner said "I didn't think they would let my house burn." He was gambling that if he didn't pay, they would extinguish his fire anyhow. But they can't. If they extinguish the house fire of one person who didn't pay, then no one would pay. Perhaps this will be the litmus test on true conservatives. There is a difference between being "nice" and being "good". The Fire Department has no choice, or they will be fighting fires all over the county with no money coming in. Why would another person pay the $75 if they did extinguish his fire? The owner didn't say "I forgot to pay." or "I lost my job and couldn't afford to pay." He said "I didn't think they would let my house burn." I think he gambled his house against $75 and lost.

This happens in many settings. People want to live in the country and are then surprised that they don't have garbage pickup, or the sheriff deputy's take 20 minutes to get there. Choose to live in the country then accept the consequences. It is called "being a man".

They got all kinds of stuff sent down to them through the tubes, but Chilean authorities would not permit beer or other alcohol to be sent down. It was, of course, because they were ... wait for it ... miners.

Why would another person pay the $75 if they did extinguish his fire? The owner didn't say "I forgot to pay." or "I lost my job and couldn't afford to pay." He said "I didn't think they would let my house burn." I think he gambled his house against $75 and lost.

So you're depending on government not to make a horrifying bureaucratic clerical mistake over $75? Put the fire out as long as you are there, an make them pay the $75. You would seriously recommend letting that house go up in flames if you knew an elderly relative that was in there? Jesus.

There wasn't an elderly relative in the house. Don't make stuff up. There wasn't a clerical error. He didn't pay. He knew he didn't pay, they knew he didn't pay. I would trust that Fire Chief to know exactly who had paid in that county. This is called local government. I would be willing to bet the home owner hadn't paid in a number of years. He was counting on the Fire Department taking care of him even though he refused to pay his share. (Sometimes we refer to this as getting his own acorns out of the fire.) This is also referred to as "sponging off of others" or "being a mooch".

In fact, I would be that if a person were to take that Fire Chief for a drive around the county he could identify from memory which houses hadn't paid their fire fees. One reason some people live in the county and not the city is to avoid taxes. (Note: that is "one reason", not the only reason.)

You can never underestimate the intelligence of a member of the Washington media elite. Matthews is so steeped in the politics that suffuse everything there that he can't see how fixated he is on attacking tea partiers.

He really seems to be getting worse in the last couple years. I'm wondering if he's just phoning it in these days because he's too comfortable, or if there's some kind of age-related mental degradation going on here. Seems a bit early for that, but still...

"Actually, I think the rescue pod or whatever it's called was invented by a private person not the Chilean government. An American at that."

While it was designed by an American, that American is a NASA engineer. You know, NASA -- a US government agency, in case you haven't heard. And it was built by the Chilean military. That's probably still a branch of their government.

If you really want to make this political, we can. I'd rather just make the obvious observation that combining the best of government and private industry can often do much more than either one alone.