How serious are we ??

So according to Justinmadison a player with no WTA points can enter a WTA event without ever playing one professional match. TCFs girl will not have to work her way up the pro ranks just like everybody else you say. How do you do this? I would love to hear this explanation.

I think your right I should do what he is saying , where do I start ? Lets see with and 8 yr old who can't win a match , who is playing up to have and excuse for losses or for the most part what has he done that anyone has " seen" ?

I am not Manti Teo sorry bud

Click to expand...

Brad - looks like DB has the tools to succeed but the criticism leveled most often against you on these boards which resonates with me is that you have not put DB under pressure and there is always an excuse - typically the boys 12's - he was a pusher - any victories are always against incredible players - its like saying your greatest weakness is you are too much of a perfectionist in an interview.

So according to Justinmadison a player with no WTA points can enter a WTA event without ever playing one professional match. TCFs girl will not have to work her way up the pro ranks just like everybody else you say. How do you do this? I would love to hear this explanation.

Click to expand...

Yes Ringer, you take your kid and never play tourneys, somehow get into Orange Bowl, Herr and win those, no more junior tourneys and jump right to main draw WTA at 16, isn't that how it works? :-? Taylor Townsend is doing it all wrong playing futures in Texas.

So according to Justinmadison a player with no WTA points can enter a WTA event without ever playing one professional match. TCFs girl will not have to work her way up the pro ranks just like everybody else you say. How do you do this? I would love to hear this explanation.

Click to expand...

Not according to me. TCF is the one who knows how this is done. TCF clearly knows more than Brad about these matters. He plans for his girl to win OB early, say 12 or 13, and then go pro. He has a plan for her to make top 100 WTA early probably by the time she is 18 or 19. Brad is the one who insists on working up through futures etc.

Brad - looks like DB has the tools to succeed but the criticism leveled most often against you on these boards which resonates with me is that you have not put DB under pressure and there is always an excuse - typically the boys 12's - he was a pusher - any victories are always against incredible players - its like saying your greatest weakness is you are too much of a perfectionist in an interview.

Click to expand...

Dont put DB under pressure ? not sure what your saying ? As for the boys 12's most players either were or became a pusher during the match cause they had no choise , we won some we lost some ,since most the tourneys we play are high level, so then the players are alway at a high level we beat .

Not according to me. TCF is the one who knows how this is done. TCF clearly knows more than Brad about these matters. He plans for his girl to win OB early, say 12 or 13, and then go pro. He has a plan for her to make top 100 WTA early probably by the time she is 18 or 19. Brad is the one who insists on working up through futures etc.

Click to expand...

well that is awesome cause as of last year TCF's daughter was hitting as big as Serena so by the time she is 14 she will be pro , OK everyone you heard it here from Justin and myself and TCF she will be on the WTA .

I hope you are right but I don't see it that way. Are you committed to 3, 4 or 5 years slugging it out in the Futures if that is what it takes?

Click to expand...

He test off the charts physically already in some critical areas so there is only a little to clean up and he will be fine , the plus, he now believes he can get it done so like every level before 10's 12, 14 16 18 we got into them figured them out and rose to the top !
So now we start the futures and repeat the process again , Coach are you in CA ?

He test off the charts physically already in some critical areas so there is only a little to clean up and he will be fine , the plus, he now believes he can get it done so like every level before 10's 12, 14 16 18 we got into them figured them out and rose to the top !
So now we start the futures and repeat the process again , Coach are you in CA ?

justinmadison, I am just a realist who plays the odds. Of course anyone making it as a money making pro is a long shot. However, over time, a higher percentage of money makers showed extreme promise at a young age....won OB's, top ITFs, Jr. Slams. Tennis Cruz once did a study and found that like 90% of the money making pros reached certain milestones at a young age.

So we are going the direct route, playing way above her age group....and watching for signs of either extreme talent or not so much. For example....timed spider drills vs very talented athletes....throwing a tennis ball from one baseline to the other....still searching for another 8 year old girl who can throw a ball from one baseline and hit the fence behind the other baseline half way up. Why extreme throwing? Because strong throwers many times make strong servers.

All along the way, testing, looking for the athletic ability and desire needed to make it. Putting under pressure to see if she plays better against the odds, plays well when favored, can defend the court when she is expected to be the best player and also fight when a huge underdog.

As she ages, the decisions will be made.....if things falter, so be it. No off the charts results by age 14-16? College, college, college.

Enter the pros and not see consistent rankings jumps the 1st year, 2nd year, 3rd year a money maker? Bang, done, tennis is now a hobby and its off to enter a real career.

Not saying a player can not make it slugging it our through futures year after year after year. Of course some players have done so. All I am saying is that is not our plan....either show amazing prodigy like results all along the way or head to college. The odds are long enough without taking red eye flights to Mexico to grunge for points for 4 years.

I said my piece many times about BB. Impressed with the player he produced, however if it were my son he would now be focused on college and could dabble in futures in the summers. I just do not think his path with the less than crazy great results his player has produced, says he has a realistic chance at making money in tennis. I would stack the odds by heading to college if my kid has the same comparable results at age 15-17.

Click to expand...

TCF, Your philosophy for girl's tennis development with professional ambition makes a lot of sense to me. I am sure that you have arrived at this thought based on your hours of studying how top women players were brought up. But I have a feeling that you may want to give #1's kid another year or so to decide if he should turn pro or join a D1 team.

It's great that both you and #1 are sharing your philosophy, your belief, and your experience of developing top tennis players with the tennis community. Being a non-confrontation person, I actually have started to enjoy reading these "unfriendly" posts from both of you, especially when you tried to make fun to each other. Well, I am sure many people like myself would wish nothing but the best for your highly talented kids!

I appreciate your post. Obviously BB is going to give his player plenty more time, I would not bother as I do not see anything that even hints of money making potential in his results the past several years.

Thats just not for us. A friend recently made some connections where it may be possible to have Stefano Capriati take a look at our girls and evaluate them. I would love for him to give me a brutally honest review of where she stands compared to Jennifer at age 8.

The Williams sisters, Capriati, Seles, all jumped off the page at young ages to anyone who watched them. Either we show age comparative ability to players like that or we go to college.

Part of the reason for this extreme approach is she hit her first tennis ball as a toddler and has every advantage as far as training, opportunity, and size. So it would be total denial not to accept all along the way that she either has it or does not have it.

I think BB is in the same position....kid started tennis young, totally dedicated, Cali where he has the chance to play a ton, great size all along.....tons of advantages yet not off the charts prodigy success. His 10s-18s juniors success is nice but no big deal....with all his advantages he should be winning on the level a Nadal was at age 16-17. He should be the 16-17 year old winning these futures all the time.

If that were us, the brutal evaluation would have lead to the college route by now.

Click to expand...

I have plenty of video of my daughter at 7 yrs old throwing a ball the length of the court which doesn't win matches , I also have video of her at 7 and 8 yrs old we can both put up video of them and see how your girl lines up , but by 8 yrs old she was already winning a lot of matches in So Cal the toughest section .

I appreciate your post. Obviously BB is going to give his player plenty more time, I would not bother as I do not see anything that even hints of money making potential in his results the past several years.

Thats just not for us. A friend recently made some connections where it may be possible to have Stefano Capriati take a look at our girls and evaluate them. I would love for him to give me a brutally honest review of where she stands compared to Jennifer at age 8.

The Williams sisters, Capriati, Seles, all jumped off the page at young ages to anyone who watched them. Either we show age comparative ability to players like that or we go to college.

Part of the reason for this extreme approach is she hit her first tennis ball as a toddler and has every advantage as far as training, opportunity, and size. So it would be total denial not to accept all along the way that she either has it or does not have it.

I think BB is in the same position....kid started tennis young, totally dedicated, Cali where he has the chance to play a ton, great size all along.....tons of advantages yet not off the charts prodigy success. His 10s-18s juniors success is nice but no big deal....with all his advantages he should be winning on the level a Nadal was at age 16-17. He should be the 16-17 year old winning these futures all the time.

If that were us, the brutal evaluation would have lead to the college route by now.

Click to expand...

Great post and I couldn't agree more. Generally speaking, if you are truly honest, you see greatness very early and you know it when you see it and very very few kids have it, or will ever have it, at least with respect to discussing the professional level of any sport.

As a side note (as an example), my dad coached Chauncey Billups (b-ball) and Chauncey was great from age 5 . . . your jaw just dropped watching that little kid do his thing . . . Pete Sampras, same thing . . . it was greatness from the beginning.

You always hear things like, "the 12s don't matter," and that's crap in my very humble opinion. There don't talk about both sides. On one side, yes, it's true that a top 12 may not be a top 16 or 18. However, most of the top 16 and 18s were high performers in the 12s.

I'm not saying it's impossible to come out of nowhere but it's highly unlikely.

My daughter's goal and destination is COLLEGE.

I'm sure some may disagree with me but the facts are the facts and we keep revisiting that dream of being a pro. Absolutely chase the dream at warp speed but you better have a massive pillow (advanced degrees) to fall back on . . .

There is nothing remotely comparable between 10s-18s USTA ranking success and the next level. No way to repeat a process when the 2 processes are unrelated. During the 10s-16s he was a foot taller than the other boys and most likely trained twice as hard. Those advantages are gone now.

Click to expand...

When you are playing up two age groups on average through your jr career those height advantages become irrelevant , so not sure what your getting at ?

As for the ITF compared to the USTA tourneys we played against some of the top players there "OB" some already signed pro one of them got man handled by DB and the others were not at some incredibly high level in fact they were solid but so was Thai and DB .

Tennis is a sport its not magic and who ever wants it has a chance at getting it and at 8 yrs old my players were already winning tourneys , so your expertise is only so good in my eyes

#1 Coach: Interesting debate here. I have come around closer to your position. The rallying cry, including from me, was he needs to do something in a big junior event. Well, he did. Made a deep run at the OB. Beat top players along the way. It seems no mattter what he does, his critics keep moving the bar. Keep comparing him to Nadal. That's OK. But why not compare him to the guys that cracked the top 100 at age 25+ Soeda, Russell etc. Players develop different and big guys historically develop later- Isner, Anderson, Karlovic. All the junior stuff means very little- it's now all bout getting his feet wet in the Futures. Don't expect big results right away. Takes everyone time to adjust. He's got 14 months before worrying about college. Let's see what happens.

#1 Coach: Interesting debate here. I have come around closer to your position. The rallying cry, including from me, was he needs to do something in a big junior event. Well, he did. Made a deep run at the OB. Beat top players along the way. It seems no mattter what he does, his critics keep moving the bar. Keep comparing him to Nadal. That's OK. But why not compare him to the guys that cracked the top 100 at age 25+ Soeda, Russell etc. Players develop different and big guys historically develop later- Isner, Anderson, Karlovic. All the junior stuff means very little- it's now all bout getting his feet wet in the Futures. Don't expect big results right away. Takes everyone time to adjust. He's got 14 months before worrying about college. Let's see what happens.

Click to expand...

Thanx and I see when he does well he is compared to what Nadal did by this age but we dont have Dr. Eufemio Fuentes on our side nor do we want him. We will continue to work hard and work through the future events and see how it pans out .

The game is ever changing and making the jump will have its challenges but the biggest one will be spending the cash and being able to target the right events to get the solid competition and make some head way .

Hey Granite: You've got a nice player. Saw him play one of my guys couple years back. #1: Not judging anyone, just observing but I saw Nadal play at age 17. No one knew who he was. I remember him well. Never seen a 17 yr old tennis player so cut and muscled.

Example of the front door to the ATP.....sixteen-year-old Christian Garin of Chile won his first match at the ATP main draw level today.

Most of the players that make it show substantial rankings rises year after year. Almost no top 80 pros spent year after year at the futures level.

Click to expand...

I am seeing something about a betting scandal and this poor talented kid , do you know any of the details on whether the other guy tanked the match and give him his 1 st AtP win ?

Your pretty good with your facts so I am looking to you for answers . The ATP site was posting a story on and investigation into it down in Chile let me know what you hear cause you pointed this kid out like Boluda so he must be the real deal !

#1 Coach: Your player has potential but he needs full time professional coaching. Is he getting that? The coaching he gets from you is not enough.

Click to expand...

right now I have had 5 age divisions to coach him in and we have risen to the top of each one now we are starting a new division , if we were a stock on the the exchange we have always increased in value , my question is why would we need another trader at this point ?

how is what I am doing not enough please explain in detail not generics like I have never played pro , I have never been there ,I don't know what it takes, be more specific , cause I never played US jrs or itfs and we have been pretty solid ??

However, over time, a higher percentage of money makers showed extreme promise at a young age....won OB's, top ITFs, Jr. Slams. Tennis Cruz once did a study and found that like 90% of the money making pros reached certain milestones at a young age.

There is nothing remotely comparable between 10s-18s USTA ranking success and the next level. No way to repeat a process when the 2 processes are unrelated. During the 10s-16s he was a foot taller than the other boys and most likely trained twice as hard. Those advantages are gone now.

Click to expand...

Aren't these two statements contradictory? They are both early success, no?

right now I have had 5 age divisions to coach him in and we have risen to the top of each one now we are starting a new division , if we were a stock on the the exchange we have always increased in value , my question is why would we need another trader at this point ?

how is what I am doing not enough please explain in detail not generics like I have never played pro , I have never been there ,I don't know what it takes, be more specific , cause I never played US jrs or itfs and we have been pretty solid ??

Click to expand...

Pros is different than juniors. It ain't a new division. Obviously he has had professional coaching along the way, Bij etc. Needs 1 pro coach very involved. He may have that now? The USTA should provide it. You still need to be very involved and calling the shots- the USTA is not going to like that. They refused to work together with D Young's parents, USTA wanted control. In my opinion the USTA was wrong and stupid.

Pros is different than juniors. It ain't a new division. Obviously he has had professional coaching along the way, Bij etc. Needs 1 pro coach very involved. He may have that now? The USTA should provide it. You still need to be very involved and calling the shots- the USTA is not going to like that. They refused to work together with D Young's parents, USTA wanted control. In my opinion the USTA was wrong and stupid.

Click to expand...

I hope you're not blaming DY's path in the pros on the USTA. It is what it is and it's on DY and his parents. They picked his contract based on incentives, instead of the upfront money, they took the 8 or 9 WC's in a row in the beginning when he was 15 in which he lost all of them. It was DY's folks who wanted control. From what I can see they wanted USTA funding without the USTA involvement. Tell me how that's not the case.

I gaving DY the benefit of the doubt all along. With the exception of short-term change, he's always gone back to same way of doing thing, his folks. I've observed very little tennis, physical and emotional athletic growth. He could have used the coaching from another source, they seem to always push that away. I still hold out hope with his young age he can turn it around. But they won't change the way they've been going about things since the beginning, so why should we expect anything different in the future?

Pros is different than juniors. It ain't a new division. Obviously he has had professional coaching along the way, Bij etc. Needs 1 pro coach very involved. He may have that now? The USTA should provide it. You still need to be very involved and calling the shots- the USTA is not going to like that. They refused to work together with D Young's parents, USTA wanted control. In my opinion the USTA was wrong and stupid.

Click to expand...

DY is a good kid and I agree with the "1 coach" part, however; Donald's mother needs to stay off the court, and therein lies the problem. Being "very involved" and "calling the shots" are two completely different responsibilities. Donald needs his parents to be parents and not his coaches.

Andfor and chalk are not wrong. What I thought too about DY. I am close with a top dawg in American tennis. Tells me DY is really good kid. Was a wrestling match between him and USTA. USA players sided with DY. When DY and family wouldn't go along, USTA turned on them. Made damaging public statements etc. This is why you don't hear American pros speak out agnst USTA- fear of retribution. Only ones speaking their minds are anonymous powerless nut cases like me. I am not a conspiracy theorist. I know this from reliable sources.

Not at all. Night and day difference between touting success in USTA 10s-16s and WINNING OBs, or Jr. Slams, or top ITFs, or futures at young ages. (When he did the study the OB was way more important than it is now....the field these days has very few of the top 10 guys in it.)

That is what the Tennis Cruz study found, that guys who went on to the top 100 had certain high level junior successes at the very highest levels of the junior 18s.

BB has constantly touted success at the 10s-16s USTA level. Please list one major ITF, Herr, OB, Jr. Slam or any major 18s tournament he has ever won. Am I missing them?

But back to the main point....his path is his path, maybe he will be the rare one that beats the odds. But its just not for us. We either are that player with consistent prodigy results, INCLUDING when she is old enough for 18s, Jr. Slams, etc.....or its off to college.

Touting a level of success in 10s-16s, without then a huge leap at age 16 to dominating the world 18s and getting quite deep in futures after futures, is very misleading to me. The results of "early success" MUST be consistent and MUST continue when they hit the age 15-16-17 range where they are off the charts.

The fact is a fully dedicated player who has trained solely for tennis for 10-12 years, will hit the ceiling. No magical improvements will appear by slogging it out in futures for years. The guys that show that improvement most likely got fully into tennis at older ages and thus had lots more room for improvement once they fully dedicated to the sport.

Again, BB should do what he thinks is right. I just have no use for his advice because we are on totally different paths.

Click to expand...

I see. It just seems to me that you're as set in your way as Brad was in his, which you heavily criticized. Anyway, good luck to the both of you.

Andfor and chalk are not wrong. What I thought too about DY. I am close with a top dawg in American tennis. Tells me DY is really good kid. Was a wrestling match between him and USTA. USA players sided with DY. When DY and family wouldn't go along, USTA turned on them. Made damaging public statements etc. This is why you don't hear American pros speak out agnst USTA- fear of retribution. Only ones speaking their minds are anonymous powerless nut cases like me. I am not a conspiracy theorist. I know this from reliable sources.

Click to expand...

I know a lot about what your saying, also from 3rd parties close to the source. That said without being there the only two who know the true story is theYoung's and the USTA. I will say without going through the history, detail by detail, by the time the USTA (PMAC) made comments about DY and the Young's much of the damage was already done. Look back at how DY started, the path was laid by his parents and DY and started without much of the USTA, they continued that path for the most part to this day. They wanted the WC's when he was 15. They took them and continued to lose. They did not want him far from home when he was 15. The parents wanted to be be with him then. Can't blame them for that, but they wanted to be there directing the coaching. They were reluctent to start him in the Futures where he belonged. The USTA did not do that. Remember that was in the beginning. The USTA has always tried to help, but when the parents wanted it their way and would not comprimise or the comprimise they had in mind did not work for the USTA why is it the USTA's problem? When he struggled and needed some help he could have gone to the USTA under their terms. They would not have it . Is the USTA always supposed to kiss ass the whole time?

DY got to where he is for the most part with his parents help. They have done a great job over all. But, he stalled and that's when change needs to take place. Until responsibility is accepted and change is embraced, expect more of the same.

There's a lot of blame to go around. Why not start with the souce, DY and his team?

You make good points andfor. Gotta go play a match. 30+ inches snow here. I must be crazy.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Can't play outside because of rain here. Got a indoor ct. for an hour at 5. Our club is getting ready for the US Pro Indoor tournament and many of the courts are taken away due to stadium and grandstand courts set up.

TCF, my boy will do some hitting practice later this week with a friend of yours. If you want to hear more about it private message me.

But its just not for us. We either are that player with consistent prodigy results, INCLUDING when she is old enough for 18s, Jr. Slams, etc.....or its off to college.

Click to expand...

TCF. When you say it’s off to college does that mean to off to play college tennis or off to college to study? I know it is possible to do both but most kids in that situation are either playing for the experience while focusing on a degree or playing seriously hoping to go pro after college and not actually working academically to target an after college profession. If you do not see the results by 16 do you cut back on practice to make more time for academics?