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The New CBA and Melo

Negotiating the new CBA is likely going to be somewhat ugly. If the media is to be believed, the owners are prepared for a lockout. If there is a lockout, no one gets paid. Although I do not expect it to happen with the NBA, the NHL union restructured existing contracts downward by almost 25% a few years back in order to break a lockout.

It appears more than reasonably clear that maximum salaries are not going up in a new CBA. A maximum salary applies to only a handful of players and the union represents all the players. It is also pretty clear that contract lengths will not increase, or, like the NFL, teams will be able to cut players mid contract with only guaranteed payments in place. Other options such as a hard cap are also problematic. In short, if I were Melo I would expect that a contract under the current CBA will be better by perhaps several million dollars than a contract under the new CBA. But if he waits Melo, will certainly get whatever the max will be under the new CBA. .

Melo will pay a price if he does not extend, but he will be a mega-millionaire in any event. To the extent he wants to win he will not want the team that acquires him to divest itself of the talent needed to win. New York is the perfect place for Melo and LaLa.

I do not know what Melo will do. But I agree with LJ4PtPlay, lets not gut the team for him. Lets wait it out.

Gonna have to side wth LJ on this one. We are going to have to give up a lot for him without gutting the team. Not feelin givin up Gallo and Randolph and curry possibly for monetary purposes. I heard we cant give a first rounder or some reason, so that sucks if true.

I can see giving up one or the other, but both? nah.

My hope is that Melo plays the ultimate power move, by saying the money does not matter. That is probably the only way we get him without getting fleeced. Just a hope tho.

I'm going to need someone to find the post where I say it'll take Curry, Chandler, and our 2014 pick. You keep hanging your hat on the "it's going to take a lot more than that, so keep believing that if you want to" when you're putting words in my mouth. You don't know what I believe it will take so I don't know why you keep going back to that.

Right here:

Originally Posted by nuckles2k2

We can't compete with the pieces on the Nets, Kings, or Clippers, and still put a good team on the court this year, nor should we try to compete with them. If they decimate their team for one guy, fine. But if Melo forces his way to the Knicks, take advantage of the situation and don't be the dummy that pays full price for an item that's discounted. Once again, if Melo says "Knicks or I walk next year" and we say "Curry, Chandler, 2014 pick, plus whoever not named Amar'e, Felton, Gallo, Randolph, or Turiaf" and Denver turns it down....well they'll watch Melo walk. If they don't want to watch him walk, the deal goes through.

That's the only way we're getting him. Donnie's not going to blow the team up for one guy.

I know what you're saying. You think Denver absolutely must do whatever Melo demands because Melo can determine where he wants to go because of the threat of an extension. I know this. You keep repeating yourself over and over. It's tiring. I disagree.

You keep going under the assumption that the new CBA means nothing to Melo. Obviously it does or else he wouldn't be seeking a new team right now. And since it obviously does, this gives Denver a little leverage. They don't have to accept a crappy offer ofr Melo.

And with the looming CBA, Melo will be more inclined to get a deal done. Or else Melo goes into a lockout with nothing and the possibility of losing $15-20 mil. That doesn't mean he will go to a team he doesn't want but it does mean he will be more willing to go to teams other than the Knicks.

If Melo says I will go to either the Knicks, Rockets or Nets, do you really think Denver will accept the Knicks crappy offer? Hence we would have to increase our offer (gut the team).

I know what you're saying. You think Denver absolutely must do whatever Melo demands because Melo can determine where he wants to go because of the threat of an extension. I know this. You keep repeating yourself over and over. It's tiring. I disagree.

You keep going under the assumption that the new CBA means nothing to Melo. Obviously it does or else he wouldn't be seeking a new team right now. And since it obviously does, this gives Denver a little leverage. They don't have to accept a crappy offer ofr Melo.

And with the looming CBA, Melo will be more inclined to get a deal done. Or else Melo goes into a lockout with nothing and the possibility of losing $15-20 mil. That doesn't mean he will go to a team he doesn't want but it does mean he will be more willing to go to teams other than the Knicks.

If Melo says I will go to either the Knicks, Rockets or Nets, do you really think Denver will accept the Knicks crappy offer? Hence we would have to increase our offer (gut the team).

I don't know why it is difficult for you to understand this.

For the record, I said plus whoever else from our roster not named the people I listed. It's going to take more than 3 pieces to get Melo.

Plus you seem to be hanging your hat on the theory that the only reason why Melo wants to be traded as opposed to walking is because of the CBA. But then why did Bosh initially want a sign and trade? Why did Lee agree to a sign and trade to Golden State? Bird Rights = more money. What do you lose if you walk as a free agent? Bird Rights. What transfers in a trade from your first team to your second team? Bird Rights.

If Melo is truly worried about the lockout, why not sign the extension and then demand a trade? He's already under contract so why not extend your contract and still proclaim that you want out? Could it be that if you use the threat of your walk year next year for your current team, and use that same threat for any potential suitors you're traded to, you can control your destiny?

I agree that we could lose him if the Nets or Rockets make a huge offer, or Melo can also say..."hmmm do I want to go to a team that just gutted their team to get me, so I have no chance of contending anytime soon...or should I force Denver to deal with the Knicks who'll have Amar'e, Felton, Gallo and/or Randolph?" The dude isn't an idiot, the mere fact that he's not signing an extension to preserve the threat of his walk year to get out of Denver and dictate where he goes, when he doesn't even have a NTC, shows how crafty he's being. Dude created a NTC out of thin air.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Donnie is not going to get into a bidding war for Melo. He'll put his offer out there, it will be the weakest one, but if Melo wants to go to a team with Amar'e, Felton, Gallo and/or Randolph, he'll block all of the other trades and he'll either make Denver watch him walk, or deal with NYK.

I think you need to read up on what the issues with the CBA negotiations are:

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It's around this time next summer when we'll have a fairly good idea when the 2011-12 basketball season will begin: On time, a little late, or See You In 2012-13.

Owners and players will engage in serious negotiations on the next labor contract in July (assuming they don't settle before then), and history (along with common sense) says the meetings won't be over in a day. Sometime next August is a reasonable time to take the temperature of the talks, where they're headed, and if the NBA is careening toward a work stoppage that would delay if not cancel the season.

Obviously, we all know what they'll be fighting over.

There will be several items on the agenda, and we won't waste any time going from one to the other, or even fretting over who gets the healthiest slice of the revenue pie. But there's one area worth debating, because it reaches the heart and soul of the labor issue: player contracts.

Specifically, contract length.

If he truly wants to play here he can easily play a season in Denver and walk, or they can trade him to another team with no extension, and he'll walk away from that foolish team, and he'll get a new max here. Or he can block every trade, including the Rockets and Nets who won't have much after the trade and force his way to the team that still has a top 5 PF and a good PG.

This is all based on the assumption that he wants to play here. If he does, he'll do anything in his power to ensure that we keep some talent for him to play with along side STAT.

You understand...if the Knicks get him, then there are no other teams bidding for his services for Denver to consider...Melo has eliminated them all. Who the hell are we outbidding to get him? The Knicks have to make their offer, and that's it. If another team weakens themselves for one man, so be it. If Melo starts blocking trades left and right, then you hold steadfast and if your offer is the last one...well you're either getting him or he's staying put. Why in the hell would we then increase the offer to Gallo and Randolph when you can assume that he's probably coming next summer?

We're either getting him on the extreme cheap, getting him as an FA next year, or not getting him at all.

So out of those options, I say wait and get him next year. But if he forces Denver to our doorstep, get him under contract now and let's move forward. But under no circumstance are we trading Gallo and Randolph at all.

I keep saying the same thing because it doesn't seem to be sinking in. There is no opinion about it. Denver doesn't want to deal with us. But if they can't deal with anyone else and they come to us, it's their last resort. If it's their last resort they take whatever we offer or watch him leave. If we obviously didn't feel the need to increase our offer when other teams were making offers and getting them blocked, then we're obviously content with our team and we'll take our chances next summer. If they want to trade Melo for pennies on the dollar to get some sort of compensation, then they'll take the offer that we first extended to them, that's been on the table, while they also took other offers.

This is not rocket science. Yea it's the NBA but it's still a business. I don't know why you think the NBAPA will ever agree to any deal that could cost a player $15-20mil on the life of a contract. Are you pulling numbers out of your ass? The issue the owners have is the amount of money owed to lower tiered players over the lifetime of their long, guaranteed, 5-6 year deals. Take the Griz for example, is Rudy living up to his 5-year $80mil max extension? No? Too ****ing bad, pay him or move his bad contract. Can the Bulls do anything about Deng's deal which has like 4 more years on it? What about the Hornets with Okafor's remaining 4 years? Nah.

That's the main issue with the CBA, I don't get where you figure someone of Melo's talent level and status is losing $15-20mil. Those are numbers you just pulled out of no where and you're hanging your whole argument on something you just made up. The NBA will cease to exist before the Players' Association let's a max contract for Melo's eligibility go from 5-years $100mil to 5-years $80mil.

You're saying that the max contract for a player with 7 years of eligibility will go down to the max contract for a player with 4 years of NBA service? Why the hell would the union ever agree to that?

^ Just a quick rebuttal before I have to go. So essentially you think we can trade Curry, Chandler, 2014 pick and scraps (Douglas, Azu, Mason. etc) and get Melo. That is foolish. Denver will not accept that even if Melo states he will only go to the Knicks.

I find it funny that you are lecturing ME about the CBA. I know much more about the CBA than almost everybody on this site.

It has nothing to do with Bird Rights, it has to do with getting an extra year on the contract (more money).

For Melo it has nothing to do with Bird Rights. They already have them. It is a contract extension. They offered him a max extension, which is only 3 years. Melo can get a longer contract if he waits for free agency.

Which is why it is obvious that Melo is worried about the looming lockout and new CBA. He could get a bigger contract in free agency if everything remained the same.

You always seem to assume that Denver absolutely must trade Melo. If Melo says I will only go to the Knicks, and Denver doesn't like the Knicks offer, they don't have to trade him. They can let him walk for nothing and Melo can lose a lot of money. A crappy deal from the Knicks is not better than letting him walk for nothing. And with this, they force Melo to be more open with his choices.

Why do you not understand this? I understand Melo's power. He has a lot. But you keep stating that Denver must do anything Melo wants and they have no power at all in this. That is not true. In the end, they trade Melo. He doesn't trade himself. They are the ones trading and must accept a deal. They can reject any trade they want = power.

Damn, I had a whole wall of text ready and then I came across this article....I'll post that instead.

As the rumor mill starts to churn more heavily about the eventual destination of Carmelo Anthony now that it's accepted he wants out of Denver, there will be conflicting reports. Some will say that the Nuggets don't care a lick about what Carmelo wants and will trade him to whomever they please. These reports will be sourced out of the Nuggets camp or those close to them. Others will say that the Knicks are still in play or that one of his preferred teams is likely. Those, as you can guess, will come from Melo's camp.

It's a cute game, but has little to do with what will actually occur. What's interesting is how this will play out and determining who exactly has leverage in this situation. And that's where the latest tweet from the reliable Sam Amico comes in.

Amico reports the following concerning prospective partners for the Nuggets:

Early word around NBA is Nuggets will try to trade Carmelo to 1 of 3 teams: Wolves, Kings, Nets. In other words, careful what you wish for.
less than a minute ago via web
Sam Amico
SamAmicoNBA

It's very likely that Amico's on the money here. These are the types of teams that the Nuggets will be targeting as trade partners. They're loaded with young talent, draft picks, and a handful of expiring contracts. The Nuggets will get what they want for Melo. Who cares what Melo or CAA has to say about it?

Well, for one, the teams that will be trying to trade for him.

The problem with this tactic lies with the original source of this whole shebang, Melo's extension. As a free agent next summer, the Nuggets were trying to lock down a max extension for Melo. His reticence to sign that extension was the first sign that maybe Anthony wasn't quite as happy as he let on.

It's also that extension that maintains Anthony's leverage. Because those teams do have what the Nuggets want. And the Nuggets certainly have what those teams want... to a degree. They have access to Carmelo Anthony... for a single season. It's Anthony's own control over the subsequent season that will prevent the Nuggets from trading him to whomever they please.

Any team looking to acquire Anthony will want him in an extend-and-trade that locks him up for further seasons. After all, these teams have already established a core of young players, they've done their cap cleaning and draft building. They won't be giving up players with upside and future picks for a one-year rental of Anthony. Which means the Nuggets need him to sign the extension. And Anthony's only likely to do that if he assents to where he's being traded.

Anthony's extension and trade flexibility are inter-connected. The Nuggets don't just have to find a trade partner looking to acquire Melo enough to surrender the pieces they're looking to get back, they have to find a partner attractive enough to Anthony to convince him to commit to the future.

We have three actors in this little play. Anthony and his people wants his extension under the current CBA, and to relocate to a new team that fits the lifestyle which he wants to become accustomed (fame, fortune, and championships), as well as maintain their leverage in negotiations not just for Anthony but future clients. His current team needs to get the pieces they want back for Anthony and maintain their leverage in negotiations with players to not be held hostage by their demands. And his new team wants Carmelo Anthony to make them into a contender, for the next three years and beyond.

The Nets are a prospective partner, because they are relocating to Brooklyn, a market he likely finds attractive. The Kings have two definite stars, but the market isn't really there for him. The Wolves? Um... Darko's fun to hang out with?

But any of these teams have to be able to convince Anthony they have the combination of elements he desires or else they'll only be renting him.

The Nuggets have leverage, that much is clear from the events of the past week. The best scenario is convincing him to stay in Denver, sign the extension and move forward. But that bridge may have already been crossed, then lit on fire. But to act like Carmelo is subject to the whims of the Nuggets ignores not only the realities created by his extension situation, but the new reality of the empowered player that have shifted the NBA so greatly in the past three months.

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Pretty much says what I'm saying.

And for the record:

Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay

It has nothing to do with Bird Rights, it has to do with getting an extra year on the contract (more money).

They're one in the same dude. A max contract for an unrestricted FA is 5-years...a max contract for a player from a team in possession of his Bird Rights is 6 years...so...

That doesn't directly tie into this situation, because $65mil is the max for Melo in a 3 year extension from a team with his Bird Rights. But if you know so much about the CBA then how come you're essentially telling me that it has nothing to do with Bird Rights...it's all about Bird Rights? Bird Rights = extra year and more $.

Damn, I had a whole wall of text ready and then I came across this article....I'll post that instead.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Pretty much says what I'm saying.

And for the record:

They're one in the same dude. A max contract for an unrestricted FA is 5-years...a max contract for a player from a team in possession of his Bird Rights is 6 years...so...

That doesn't directly tie into this situation, because $65mil is the max for Melo in a 3 year extension from a team with his Bird Rights. But if you know so much about the CBA then how come you're essentially telling me that it has nothing to do with Bird Rights...it's all about Bird Rights? Bird Rights = extra year and more $.

I know exactly what Bird Rights are, and what they mean. You were implying that Melo is forcing a trade because he wants his Bird Rights. That is completely incorrect and implies you know nothing about Bird Rights and their purpose. A team owns a player's Bird Rights until they renounce them. They retain them so they can keep their own players even if they are over the cap. They also allow a team to give an extra year and therefore make it more attractive for a player to stay with his current team. We retained Lee's Bird Rights all throughout free agency. It became a trade chip for us, so we could get something in return, and also get Lee the extra year.

Like I said, Melo has nothing to do with Bird Rights.

Ok. You've posted an article that says exactly what you've said a million times. I KNOW!! YOU DON'T NEED TO KEEP REPEATING EVERYTHING YOU KEEP SAYING!!

I've already acknowledged Melo's power in this. But you refuse to acknowledge Denver's power...at all. Denver doesn't have to trade him. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? I keep asking you this, but you never respond, you keep saying the same thing over and over.

If the Knicks offer a crappy trade, like the one you have suggested. And Melo has said he will only go to the Knicks, Denver can still refuse to trade him. They can suspend him and keep him away from the team until he adjusts his demands.

It's been done many times when a player demands a trade. Marbury, Steven Jackson, are the more recent ones I can remember. Don't think Denver won't do the same. They will. And then Melo goes into free agency with a new CBA and stands to lose a significant amount of money.

This is also why Crawford is demanding a trade. Because of the CBA. But you seem to dismiss it every time. I don't know why. Maybe because you are still living in the fantasy that we will get Melo without having to give up much. Go ahead. I'm done with you.

One question. If Melo has all the power and Denver MUST do whatever Melo demands, why isn't he traded yet?

^ Just a quick rebuttal before I have to go. So essentially you think we can trade Curry, Chandler, 2014 pick and scraps (Douglas, Azu, Mason. etc) and get Melo. That is foolish. Denver will not accept that even if Melo states he will only go to the Knicks.

I find it funny that you are lecturing ME about the CBA. I know much more about the CBA than almost everybody on this site.

It has nothing to do with Bird Rights, it has to do with getting an extra year on the contract (more money).

For Melo it has nothing to do with Bird Rights. They already have them. It is a contract extension. They offered him a max extension, which is only 3 years. Melo can get a longer contract if he waits for free agency.

Which is why it is obvious that Melo is worried about the looming lockout and new CBA. He could get a bigger contract in free agency if everything remained the same.

You always seem to assume that Denver absolutely must trade Melo. If Melo says I will only go to the Knicks, and Denver doesn't like the Knicks offer, they don't have to trade him. They can let him walk for nothing and Melo can lose a lot of money. A crappy deal from the Knicks is not better than letting him walk for nothing. And with this, they force Melo to be more open with his choices.

Why do you not understand this? I understand Melo's power. He has a lot. But you keep stating that Denver must do anything Melo wants and they have no power at all in this. That is not true. In the end, they trade Melo. He doesn't trade himself. They are the ones trading and must accept a deal. They can reject any trade they want = power.

That's true, but does Denver want that kind of attention during the season. Remember how bad it was with Marbury's situation and how bad that made us look even though Marbury was an idiot. Now Steph wanted to play for his team true. But it came to a point that the Knicks took their sweet time buying steph out or trading him.

If it gets so bad between the two will the Nuggets play him. If he doesn't play why would they waste $17 mil on a player who's not playing.

Secondly I think this is all put in motion in preparation for the new CBA. Melo's camp wants to take a proactive approach. If the CBA is not that bad, Melo will walk, If its terrible then he really has a dilemma.

I've already acknowledged Melo's power in this. But you refuse to acknowledge Denver's power...at all. Denver doesn't have to trade him. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? I keep asking you this, but you never respond, you keep saying the same thing over and over.

Originally Posted by nuckles2k2

We're either getting him on the extreme cheap, getting him as an FA next year, or not getting him at all.

I don't know if you understand how leverage works...but all I'm saying is this. If Carmelo Anthony is to be traded to the New York Knicks, it will be under the terms of the New York Knicks. They only trade him here as a last ditch effort to get some compensation. If they don't like our offer, they let him walk. If he doesn't have his heart set on the Knicks then he green lights a trade to another team. If they feel that they absolutely have to get compensation and Melo won't sign the extension for any other team...and the Nuggets feel as if they have to give into the Knicks demands to get anything they can for the face of their franchise...we keep Gallo and Randolph and still trade for him.

I agree that Denver doesn't have to trade him. But if they see he's willing to block every trade except to the team he wants to go to, or he walks, and they don't want him to walk, they have two choices: trade him to said team or watch him walk...neither of which they want to do. How that suddenly equals leverage for them when we can still get him as a FA and at the end of the day they still don't have Melo, is crazy.

Being able to not trade him, only to lose him anyway isn't leverage, it's spite. Being able to say "hey, look, he's blocking every trade and it's obvious where he wants to go and it's equally obvious you don't want to lose him for nothing in return, so just take this deal" is leverage. But the only way that happens is obviously if Melo starts blocking trades until it's down to one team, in other words, a lot has to happen for that situation to come about. But they can obviously still be spiteful and not trade him...and watch him walk.

And he hasn't been traded yet because there hasn't been any official offers yet. Nothing is under way. All Denver did is say "we'd like to trade him to one of these three teams because we like what we see on their rosters." None of those teams have said anything yet.

If that situation happens and it allows us to trade for Melo, it will be on our terms or we wait, because at that point he's already shunned other teams and he's pointing his finger at the team he wants to go to. At which point there is no one left to outbid...that equals us either telling Denver who they have to accept or he's going to walk. If one of Denver's three preferred teams are willing to trade for Melo and he's willing to go there, the Knicks will never get an offer in. We only get to submit an offer that Denver pays attention to if Melo says "trade me there or lose me next year" and the trade is only considered and/or happens if Denver says "we can't lose you next year for nothing."

So once again, why would both Gallo and Randolph be involved in a deal?

That's true, but does Denver want that kind of attention during the season. Remember how bad it was with Marbury's situation and how bad that made us look even though Marbury was an idiot. Now Steph wanted to play for his team true. But it came to a point that the Knicks took their sweet time buying steph out or trading him.

If it gets so bad between the two will the Nuggets play him. If he doesn't play why would they waste $17 mil on a player who's not playing.

Secondly I think this is all put in motion in preparation for the new CBA. Melo's camp wants to take a proactive approach. If the CBA is not that bad, Melo will walk, If its terrible then he really has a dilemma.

The point is that Denver doesn't have to accept what the Knicks offer, if they don't like it. Even if Melo demands he is traded to the Knicks and only the Knicks. It's a business. They are not going to fall over and do whatever Melo demands. They'll do what's in the best interest of the Nuggets, regardless of Melo's demands.

They will play hard ball because they know Melo wants to avoid free agency with the new CBA. This is a bargaining chip for Denver = power. Which is what I've been arguing since the beginning of this ridiculous debate. Denver has more power than people here want to admit because they are living in the fantasy that Melo will be a Knick and we won't have to give up much to get him. Plain and simple.

Essentailly two things will happen. Melo will go somewhere else because that team made the better offer to Denver. Or we offer the best package to Denver to get Melo. It's that simple.

Melo will not demand just the Knicks and we just offer Chandler, Curry, a 2014 pick + scraps and Denver obeys. That is idiotic and naive to think that will happen.

I don't know if you understand how leverage works...but all I'm saying is this. If Carmelo Anthony is to be traded to the New York Knicks, it will be under the terms of the New York Knicks. They only trade him here as a last ditch effort to get some compensation. If they don't like our offer, they let him walk. If he doesn't have his heart set on the Knicks then he green lights a trade to another team. If they feel that they absolutely have to get compensation and Melo won't sign the extension for any other team...and the Nuggets feel as if they have to give into the Knicks demands to get anything they can for the face of their franchise...we keep Gallo and Randolph and still trade for him.

I agree with everything except the last part. This is where we disagree. See above post.

*Edit* Trading Melo for Chandler, Curry, 2014 pick and scraps does not save the face of the franchise. That is an insult to the franchise.

don't know if it will work like that but

I agree with everything except the last part. This is where we disagree. See above post.

*Edit* Trading Melo for Chandler, Curry, 2014 pick and scraps does not save the face of the franchise. That is an insult to the franchise.

I can't see the knicks being that lucky, It all hinges if Carmelo Anthony wants to be a Knick and How badly. this will work only if carmelo refuses the other teams. Carmelo controlls all the leverage. He alone can control where he goes. I hope he really wants to be a knick, not like lebron,wade or bosh.
If denver asks to much, knicks can walk away hoping to get him as free agent if he doesn't sign back with denver or another team in a trade.

The point is that Denver doesn't have to accept what the Knicks offer, if they don't like it. Even if Melo demands he is traded to the Knicks and only the Knicks. It's a business. They are not going to fall over and do whatever Melo demands. They'll do what's in the best interest of the Nuggets, regardless of Melo's demands.

They will play hard ball because they know Melo wants to avoid free agency with the new CBA. This is a bargaining chip for Denver = power. Which is what I've been arguing since the beginning of this ridiculous debate. Denver has more power than people here want to admit because they are living in the fantasy that Melo will be a Knick and we won't have to give up much to get him. Plain and simple.

Essentailly two things will happen. Melo will go somewhere else because that team made the better offer to Denver. Or we offer the best package to Denver to get Melo. It's that simple.

Melo will not demand just the Knicks and we just offer Chandler, Curry, a 2014 pick + scraps and Denver obeys. That is idiotic and naive to think that will happen.

I really don't think teams will win in this situation. Players always seem to win I think.