There seem to be many hellish NDEs that are the same: a person sees darkness, sadness, emptiness, and then they call out to God or Jesus and a white light comes and rescues them, or a hand comes and pulls them out. Then, they change their lives. There are a few examples of this, and I wonder if the consistency gives hell any credence, because why would so many of these hellish ones be so similar?

Here is one that scared me, by George Foreman who used to box. He is now a minister:

In 1977, Foreman participated in a boxing match in Puerto Rico against the skilled opponent Jimmy Young, The fight lasted for 12 rounds and resulted in Foreman losing in a decision. After the fight, Foreman returned to his hot, stuffy dressing room. The building's air-conditioning wasn't working that night, and it was intensely hot and smothering. Still running on adrenalin, Foreman paced back and forth in the room trying to cool down. Sweat pouring down his face and chest, he had never been so hot in his life. Suddenly, he was overcome with the fear that he was about to die. In Foreman's autobiography, God in My Corner: A Spiritual Memoir, Foreman wrote: "I had heard about boxers dying after big fights. Was I next? That's not going to happen to me! I assured myself." Then an otherworldly voice interrupted his thoughts, "You believe in God. Why are you afraid to die?" This voice only terrified Foreman even more. In fact, the heavy weight champion of the world said he had never been so afraid in his life. He believed in God, but not in religion which he thought was only for the "pitiful".

With death staring him in the face, Foreman had a life review where he saw "favorite things that had happened during my life, recalling them like a video tape running fast-forward, as though I knew somehow that it was about to end." At this point, Foreman was crying and trying to make a financial deal with the voice. Foreman was very rich at the time and he bargained that he would give his money to poor. The voice replied, "I don't want your money. I want YOU!" Finally, Foreman said, "God, I believe in You -- but not enough to die." It was then that Foreman collapsed to the floor and had an out-of-body experience. It was later determined he was suffering from exhausting and had a heatstroke.

God in My Corner: A Spiritual MemoirForeman described his NDE as follows: "Instantly I was transported into a deep, dark void, like a bottomless pit ... I was suspended in emptiness, with nothing over my head or under my feet ... This was a place of total isolation, cut off from everything and everyone ... It can only be described as a vacant space of extreme hopelessness ... I knew I was dead, and this wasn't heaven ... Sorrow beyond description engulfed my soul, more than anyone could ever imagine ... If you multiplied every disturbing and frightening thought that you've ever had during your entire life, that wouldn't come close to the panic I felt ... Although I couldn't see anyone, I was aware of other people in this terrible place -- The place reeked with the putrid smell of death ... This place was a vacuum without light, love, or happiness ... In that place, I had no hope for tomorrow -- or of ever getting out."

Then Foreman screamed with all his might, "I don't care if this is death. I still believe there's a God!" Instantly, what appeared to be a gigantic hand reached down into the darkness and pulled Foreman out of the void. With that, he suddenly found himself back in his body on the table in the dressing room. He awoke with great joy! He was no longer in hell; and God had rescued him. While on the table, Foreman suddenly had a vision of Jesus standing over him, thorns on his head, and blood dripping on Foreman's head. Upon seeing this, Foreman described an intense born-again experience: "Every hostile emotion had been drained out of me, and a spigot of God's love had been turned on inside me, filling me up, and overflowing out of me." To the total surprise of everyone in the dressing room, Foreman suddenly sat straight up and yelled at the top of his lungs, "Jesus Christ is coming alive in me!" Jumping off the table and overcome with an intense love for everyone, Foreman then hugged everyone in the room -- telling them how much he loved them. Everyone, most of whom had known Foreman for years, didn't know what to think about this unusual behavior. It was so out of character for him; he wouldn't stop talking about Jesus, and no one could shut him up. He was now praising the name of Jesus, the name everyone had only heard him use in vain. His doctor / friend tried to explain it away by telling him, "George, you just got your bell rung."

Since his NDE, Foreman says he is no longer afraid of dying and has found great peace and happiness with himself and God. Foreman eventually stopped boxing and became an ordained minister, initially preaching on street corners before becoming the reverend at the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ in Houston and devoting himself to his family and his congregation. He also opened a youth center bearing his name. Foreman continues to share his conversion experience on Christian television broadcasts such as The 700 Club and the Trinity Broadcasting Network and later joked that Jimmy Young had knocked the devil out of him. Watch a YouTube video presentation of George Foreman discussing his NDE.

Nikki Nyx wrote:Exhaustion and heatstroke...'nuff said. Did his NDE instruct him to start hawking electric griddles on late-night TV? Asking for a friend.

Thanks for your answer Nikki,

I am really starting to become skeptical of certain religious things, but this fear keeps coming back. I am deathy afraid of any potential afterlife, and I know for the most part that we cannot rule out the brain, and it is premature to definitely assert that a soul that like Mathew always says that is non physical can perceive light and hear things. I get that. However, my priest knows that lately I've been questioning, and he sent me some of these Christian videos of people seeing hell. I have seen quite a few maybe 5-6 where a person (usually not too religious) will have an NDE or some sort of health issue, and suddenly see absolute darkness, maybe hear people screaming, some report seeing demons, etc. They say the place is in complete isolation from other things and they feel really sad. Then, they call out to God or Jesus and get rescued. The hand pulling one out of hell for example is common across these NDEs. Does that not at all scare you?

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

I'm very suspicious that Kamil isn't from Poland at all and is in fact "you-know-who" trying to bring up NDEs again.

The obvious reason is the timing of the posts, from someone supposedly posting in Poland. Kamil must be very enthusiastic. The second reason is Kamil can't speak Polish and didn't ask his own Catholic priest on Sunday at confession.

1. Problem: After a boxing match, he was under strong adrenaline and second it was hot. This can mess up your mind pretty good and can cause hallucinations. I experienced something similar when I had a night shift and it was very hot outside and even inside and I had little water to drink, I was dizzy and also was full of fear that I would pass out, its a normal human reaction:

Kamil wrote:In 1977, Foreman participated in a boxing match in Puerto Rico against the skilled opponent Jimmy Young, The fight lasted for 12 rounds and resulted in Foreman losing in a decision. After the fight, Foreman returned to his hot, stuffy dressing room. The building's air-conditioning wasn't working that night, and it was intensely hot and smothering. Still running on adrenalin, Foreman paced back and forth in the room trying to cool down. Sweat pouring down his face and chest, he had never been so hot in his life. Suddenly, he was overcome with the fear that he was about to die.

2. Problem: Why everyone who has a NDE must a write a book. I believe they are after the money and fame for this. There are so many books with NDEs its just getting stupid. The NDE world has become a business like religion always was. Its just plain old business:

3. Problem: Why he became a minister? Why not a monk who helps the poor?? For ... sake if these NDEs are so transformative then all people who had them would become the purest beings on Earth. They would not care about money, they would not write books or become ministers to earn again more money. It does not make sense in the way they claim it:

Kamil wrote:Here is one that scared me, by George Foreman who used to box. He is now a minister:

4.Problem: He already believed in god so where is the difference? He had a normal religious NDE because he was already a believer and?:

Kamil wrote:That's not going to happen to me! I assured myself." Then an otherworldly voice interrupted his thoughts, "You believe in God. Why are you afraid to die?" This voice only terrified Foreman even more. In fact, the heavy weight champion of the world said he had never been so afraid in his life. He believed in God, but not in religion which he thought was only for the "pitiful".

5. Problem: Heatstroke which he suffered can cause damage to the brain no wonder he had a NDE:

Kamil wrote: It was then that Foreman collapsed to the floor and had an out-of-body experience. It was later determined he was suffering from exhausting and had a heatstroke.

Here is the info about heatstroke:

Heat stroke is the most serious form of heat injury and is considered a medical emergency. If you suspect that someone has heat stroke -- also known as sunstroke -- call 911 immediately and give first aid until paramedics arrive.

Heat stroke can kill or cause damage to the brain and other internal organs. Although heat stroke mainly affects people over age 50, it also takes a toll on healthy young athletes.

6. Problem: His definition of Hell is similar to the mainstream definition of Hell:

Kamil wrote:God in My Corner: A Spiritual MemoirForeman described his NDE as follows: "Instantly I was transported into a deep, dark void, like a bottomless pit ... I was suspended in emptiness, with nothing over my head or under my feet ... This was a place of total isolation, cut off from everything and everyone ... It can only be described as a vacant space of extreme hopelessness ... I knew I was dead, and this wasn't heaven ... Sorrow beyond description engulfed my soul, more than anyone could ever imagine ... If you multiplied every disturbing and frightening thought that you've ever had during your entire life, that wouldn't come close to the panic I felt ... Although I couldn't see anyone, I was aware of other people in this terrible place -- The place reeked with the putrid smell of death ... This place was a vacuum without light, love, or happiness ... In that place, I had no hope for tomorrow -- or of ever getting out."

Example of mainstream definition of Hell:

With all that fire, one would think it would be a very bright place, but Matthew 8:12 tells us it is a place of utter darkness. There is no light. No one will get to see in Hell. And, the stench of it! Revelation 19:20; 20:10; 21:8 tell us that Hell stinks. It has a bad smell to it.

The people who are sentenced there will be conscious. They will not be knocked out. They won't be driven so mad that they won't think about the horrible reality crushing them. They will have to exist with a conscious existence as Deuteronomy 18:11 demonstrates, and what they are consciously aware of is that they chose to separate themselves from the Father, as Luke 16 relays. God says to us all with no exception, "I love you. Come to me." You can choose to respond to that, or you can reply with, "No, way!" Those who rejected God's love will spend eternity regretting that decision.

Being separated from God has other consequences, for God is life, and without Him the universe doesn't hold together. You may hear about physicists trying to find the God particle or the String Theory. Well, in part they are correct. The underlining force that holds everything together is God. Jesus says it is Him. He is the bread and the life. He's what's holding us together.

Without God there is only loneliness and separation. There's just you being convicted by your memories filled with regret and despair. Luke 16 says in Hell you thirst. In Hell there is nothing to quench one's awful, mind-burning thirst.

Another reason I believe Hell may be a star or some other place with plasma energy is that should the Abyss be a reference to Hell then Revelation 9:2 tells us that it's bottomless. There is no ground to put your feet on. It is a place of continual falling and falling and never landing. Because of all the agony and destruction that you feel in Hell, it says in Matthew 8:12 that there is gnashing of teeth. There will be nothing from you but weeping and crying with no comfort and no water to supply your tears.

Hell is truly a place of torment, as Revelation 14 describes. It's an awful place of torment where you are alone with yourself possibly forever. You wanted God to leave you along and so you didn't accept Jesus' salvation, and well, you got what you wanted.

7. Problem: If he has awoken from it without the need of medical assistance then it was not so severe and I would not even call it a NDE. He had just a heatstroke with a hallucination. Also his own doctor who was his friend told him that he had a hallucination:

Then Foreman screamed with all his might, "I don't care if this is death. I still believe there's a God!" Instantly, what appeared to be a gigantic hand reached down into the darkness and pulled Foreman out of the void. With that, he suddenly found himself back in his body on the table in the dressing room. He awoke with great joy! He was no longer in hell; and God had rescued him. While on the table, Foreman suddenly had a vision of Jesus standing over him, thorns on his head, and blood dripping on Foreman's head. Upon seeing this, Foreman described an intense born-again experience: "Every hostile emotion had been drained out of me, and a spigot of God's love had been turned on inside me, filling me up, and overflowing out of me." To the total surprise of everyone in the dressing room, Foreman suddenly sat straight up and yelled at the top of his lungs, "Jesus Christ is coming alive in me!" Jumping off the table and overcome with an intense love for everyone, Foreman then hugged everyone in the room -- telling them how much he loved them. Everyone, most of whom had known Foreman for years, didn't know what to think about this unusual behavior. It was so out of character for him; he wouldn't stop talking about Jesus, and no one could shut him up. He was now praising the name of Jesus, the name everyone had only heard him use in vain. His doctor / friend tried to explain it away by telling him, "George, you just got your bell rung."

8. Problem: Oh yes. He has to be on television wow. It really changed him - sarcasm. He is now so religious and not after peoples money. I believe that his boxing career was ending and he came with this splendid idea to earn money as a reborn Christian. Eben Alexander did something similar.

Kamil wrote:Since his NDE, Foreman says he is no longer afraid of dying and has found great peace and happiness with himself and God. Foreman eventually stopped boxing and became an ordained minister, initially preaching on street corners before becoming the reverend at the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ in Houston and devoting himself to his family and his congregation. He also opened a youth center bearing his name. Foreman continues to share his conversion experience on Christian television broadcasts such as The 700 Club and the Trinity Broadcasting Network and later joked that Jimmy Young had knocked the devil out of him. Watch a YouTube video presentation of George Foreman discussing his NDE.

Here is the example:

The bestselling author who wrote a book claiming to see heaven after falling into a coma was in the middle of a $3million malpractice lawsuit.Eben Alexander became famous after his book 'Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife' became a New York Times bestseller, wherein he described his experience in the afterlife before coming back out and into consciousness.

Many people in the NDE business do this. They are smart people after all. They see that NDE stories are selling. Many of them are bestsellers even movies are done after them. So how hard is it to make up a good NDE story? None.

Here is a good example why to be skeptical of NDEs:

The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven: A True Story is a best-selling 2010 Christian book that was purported to tell the story of Alex Malarkey's experiences in a Christian version of heaven after a traffic accident in 2004.[1][2] The book, published by Tyndale House Publishers in 2010,[3] lists Alex's father Kevin Malarkey as an author along with Alex, although in November 2012 Alex described the book as "one of the most deceptive books ever."[4] The book was adapted into a TV movie in March 2010.Almost five years after the book was published and more than a million copies were sold,[5] Alex forcefully disavowed the book in an open letter to Christian bookstores and described his near-death experience as a fabrication. As a result, Tyndale House removed the book from print, and Christian bookstores removed it from their shelves.[6]

Kamil wrote:I am really starting to become skeptical of certain religious things, but this fear keeps coming back. I am deathy afraid of any potential afterlife, and I know for the most part that we cannot rule out the brain, and it is premature to definitely assert that a soul that like Mathew always says that is non physical can perceive light and hear things. I get that. However, my priest knows that lately I've been questioning, and he sent me some of these Christian videos of people seeing hell. I have seen quite a few maybe 5-6 where a person (usually not too religious) will have an NDE or some sort of health issue, and suddenly see absolute darkness, maybe hear people screaming, some report seeing demons, etc. They say the place is in complete isolation from other things and they feel really sad. Then, they call out to God or Jesus and get rescued. The hand pulling one out of hell for example is common across these NDEs. Does that not at all scare you?

Why are you discussing NDEs with a priest? This is not logical at all. Of course a priest will send you things like this and of course it will be the scenario atheist vs. believer or atheist is reborn thanks to Jesus. Tell your priest that there are also NDEs where Krishna was or where Elvis was. I would like to see how he would reply to that.

Secondly I never got why believe is so important?? Heck if there is a mighty god or gods will they not judge me according to my behaviour? i think what counts is the behaviour and not if I believe. If just believing is important then I am awaiting a lot of Nazis in heaven, along with other serial killers or terrorists.

Anyhow if you do not have any good NDE story to debunk but a really NDE story where someone had a OBE and seen something that cannot be explained then send it in if not then do not post it because this NDE would not convince anyone of us and if you read it yourself and if you are getting skeptical it would also not convince you. Heck even the doctor in the story said that it was a hallucination.

Not at all, because I don't believe in anything supernatural. Would you like to know what scares me?

My uncle had a PhD and was a college professor who taught the best history courses I ever took. He approached them holistically, if you will, encompassing philosophy, literature, art, music, and poetry, because he believed it was important to immerse yourself in the mindset of the era. IMO, he was brilliant. One day, he was at my parents' house, and he stood up to go to the kitchen and refresh his coffee. A wave of vertigo swept over him, and he lost consciousness, fell forward, and hit his forehead sharply on the floor. And that was the end of his personality. His brain was irreparably damaged, and his intelligence was reduced to that of a child. Most of his memories were gone. Head injuries scare the {!#%@} out of me, especially since I have orthostatic hypotension and experience vertigo frequently.

I'm disabled with multiple chronic pain disorders, so I've had to deal with a progressive reduction in my physical abilities over the past two decades. Before the onset of the medical madness, I did nearly everything myself: mowing an acre of lawn, shoveling snow, raking leaves, gardening, painting my house inside and out (including ladder work), keeping up with plumbing and electrical repairs, etc. I even finished a room in my basement, including building a floor and walls, putting in a ceiling, and doing all the electrical work. All while holding down a full-time, heavy labor job. Now, I have to pace myself just to keep my house clean. I can only imagine how it'll get worse over the ensuing 3-4 decades. Not being able to take care of myself scares the {!#%@} out of me.

But imaginary demons torturing me after I'm dead? <--- That actually made me laugh when I typed it. I reject it as so illogical as to be silly. There are a multitude of ways for this life to be Hell. Spend your time making it Heaven, Kamil. Because right now, you're wasting your earthly life and making it hellish by worrying about a nonexistent afterlife. Live. Experience. Enjoy. Life is too short to waste, trust me.

"Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge."—Carl Sagan

"Every philosophy is tinged with the coloring of some secret imaginative background, which never emerges explicitly into its train of reasoning."—Alfred North Whitehead

"Knowledge belongs to humanity, and is the torch which illuminates the world."—Louis Pasteur

gorgeous wrote:yes and doctors know everything...they are never wrong...

Why such a over reaction do you have a grudge against doctors?

I will rather trust a doctor with health then a ex-boxer who cannot came to a conclusion that a hallucination can be just a hallucination caused by a heatstroke in a room where its hot the air condition is not working.

Not at all, because I don't believe in anything supernatural. Would you like to know what scares me?

My uncle had a PhD and was a college professor who taught the best history courses I ever took. He approached them holistically, if you will, encompassing philosophy, literature, art, music, and poetry, because he believed it was important to immerse yourself in the mindset of the era. IMO, he was brilliant. One day, he was at my parents' house, and he stood up to go to the kitchen and refresh his coffee. A wave of vertigo swept over him, and he lost consciousness, fell forward, and hit his forehead sharply on the floor. And that was the end of his personality. His brain was irreparably damaged, and his intelligence was reduced to that of a child. Most of his memories were gone. Head injuries scare the {!#%@} out of me, especially since I have orthostatic hypotension and experience vertigo frequently.

I'm disabled with multiple chronic pain disorders, so I've had to deal with a progressive reduction in my physical abilities over the past two decades. Before the onset of the medical madness, I did nearly everything myself: mowing an acre of lawn, shoveling snow, raking leaves, gardening, painting my house inside and out (including ladder work), keeping up with plumbing and electrical repairs, etc. I even finished a room in my basement, including building a floor and walls, putting in a ceiling, and doing all the electrical work. All while holding down a full-time, heavy labor job. Now, I have to pace myself just to keep my house clean. I can only imagine how it'll get worse over the ensuing 3-4 decades. Not being able to take care of myself scares the {!#%@} out of me.

But imaginary demons torturing me after I'm dead? <--- That actually made me laugh when I typed it. I reject it as so illogical as to be silly. There are a multitude of ways for this life to be Hell. Spend your time making it Heaven, Kamil. Because right now, you're wasting your earthly life and making it hellish by worrying about a nonexistent afterlife. Live. Experience. Enjoy. Life is too short to waste, trust me.

Wow. Sorry to hear that. I know how it feels in my own family i have many cases not only that I witnessed schizophrenia in a distant relative first hand but also seen other disorders raging from Asperger syndrome to a severe obsessive compulsive disorder of personality and it showed me that the brain under this can completely change your personality and transform you into a complete stranger. I wish you good luck in your life and hope that you will manage it well.

Also cannot agree more in the last sentence. Life is really too short to worry about some afterlife.

Shen1986 wrote:Wow. Sorry to hear that. I know how it feels in my own family i have many cases not only that I witnessed schizophrenia in a distant relative first hand but also seen other disorders raging from Asperger syndrome to a severe obsessive compulsive disorder of personality and it showed me that the brain under this can completely change your personality and transform you into a complete stranger. I wish you good luck in your life and hope that you will manage it well.

Also cannot agree more in the last sentence. Life is really too short to worry about some afterlife.

Thank you, Shen. That's the thing that scares me the most...losing my intellectual capacity. It's frightening to watch someone you know change, isn't it? And to realize it could happen to you? The thought paralyzes me at times. I've made a living will in case the worst happens, and it includes a DNR to avoid legal issues.

About eight weeks ago, my lovely pups suddenly took off after a rabbit, an event for which I was unprepared, and I was still four steps up from ground level. I flew off that step on the end of their leashes like a cartoon character...until gravity caught up with me and I dropped like a stone onto the concrete sidewalk from a height of about a meter. Fortunately, I have the ability to remain level-headed in an emergency, and was able to avoid cracking my skull...at the cost of severely lacerated knees and elbows, a couple of cracked ribs, and a sprained knee. But I avoided bumping my head! Everything else heals, although I still have twinges in my ribs and pain and weakness in the knee. (Needless to say, I now scout the front yard for rabbits before venturing outside with my pups. Lesson learned the hard way.)

"Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge."—Carl Sagan

"Every philosophy is tinged with the coloring of some secret imaginative background, which never emerges explicitly into its train of reasoning."—Alfred North Whitehead

"Knowledge belongs to humanity, and is the torch which illuminates the world."—Louis Pasteur

people in nde's have learned hell doesn't exist...if someone believes strongly in hellfire and torment they might experience it...it is their own mind's creation....there have been hostile beings tormenting obe'ers...all you have to do is ignore them and they leave...

gorgeous wrote:people in nde's have learned hell doesn't exist...if someone believes strongly in hellfire and torment they might experience it...it is their own mind's creation....there have been hostile beings tormenting obe'ers...all you have to do is ignore them and they leave...