Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

What drives combat fun (for me at least) is different build & combat styles in a game. Diablo 3 is great on that. For example, for the wiz, aside from the two most popular builds (CM & hybrid archon), there are perm-archon, meteor (quite popular), disintegration, healing blade/blizz-melee build, the old blizz-hydra kiting build, and so on (so i have already counted 7, without counting variations, and some of the less viable ones like arcane orb). And that is just ONE class.

I also know that PoE has many skills, and the system allows for many builds. I am not an expert in that game (yet) so i cannot name all the builds.

So the quesiton is what MMOs have the best skill/build system design to faciliate this kind of combat style diversity? I know about the old WOW system .. which is pretty inflexible. You essentially have 3 spec & 3 play-style per class. I suppose the total 3x10 is still pretty high but I have to level up all 10 to get the variety and cannot experiement and try many different build for one class. Is the new skill system better.

Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

While there are a few cookie cutter pvp builds, Champions Online, with Sub, has a ton of different builds you can go for. I tend to make characters and builds based on themes - Ghost Fire Swordsman (Ghost Knight) Magical Archer (Darrow) Cosmic Might and Power (Mobius- Think Silver Surfer) the possiblities are endless especially when you can color your powers to your own discretion.

Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

Um... what? lol Sorry I know I'm in some ways derailing the conversation but... how is Path of Exile and Diablo 3 together on a title about Build variety? Path of Exile of course, but Diablo 3 has such little variety. Its a big reason why Diablo 3 became so lack luster for the Dungeon crawler community. Diablo 3 is NOT a good game to list when talking about build variety. Mindless fun? Sure, but theres extremely little as far as build variety in that game.

Anyways... on topic... Rift has a really good class system for some variety, though SL unfortunately felt as if it diminished it a bit, still a lot more then most other games out there for sure.

Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

Originally posted by Purutzil

Um... what? lol Sorry I know I'm in some ways derailing the conversation but... how is Path of Exile and Diablo 3 together on a title about Build variety? Path of Exile of course, but Diablo 3 has such little variety. Its a big reason why Diablo 3 became so lack luster for the Dungeon crawler community. Diablo 3 is NOT a good game to list when talking about build variety. Mindless fun? Sure, but theres extremely little as far as build variety in that game.

I just listed 7 wizard builds, with vastly different play-style. If you are not familiar with those builds, i can link you to youtube videos. And that is just 7 i can remember off the top of my head. There are more.

Now tell me ... in what other games that have so many builds for just one class. Now you may not LIKE the game, or even those builds, but you can't deny they exists. You can easily find youtube videos, or forum discussions.

And i have personally tried quite a few of those builds. If that is not variety, there is no variety in games. Don't tell me a build that depends on a laser beam is the same as a build that call meteors from sky (which requires a delay timing before it hits).

EDIT: Wildstar looks like it might have even greater build variety here.

This, actually sounds pretty good and interesting. Do you know about mage/wiz type builds? Too bad it is B2P .. and it still has no free trial, right?

Elememtalsit has quite a few builds also, you can switch between 4 elements on the fly each having a different use. Water is Healing, Earth is tankish, Fire is DPS, and Air is control. And Anet is having a Free Trial Weekend this weekend starting tomorrow. I think there'sa thread for it here somewhere to get a key

Edit: Looks like MORPG.com gave away all of their keys already. You can go here to find out other sites that have/had keys to give away.

Report this post

Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

Rift...

I don't see any competition against Rift's soul system. There are other recent games with lots of build variety but only because they limit the amount of skills you can choose to use and/or the differences are extremely passive (like GW2's talent system).

Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

Originally posted by Vannor

Rift...

I don't see any competition against Rift's soul system. There are other recent games with lots of build variety but only because they limit the amount of skills you can choose to use and/or the differences are extremely passive (like GW2's talent system).

Limit is good. Limit force choices, and choices leads to variety.

If everyone can have all skills ..all to the max .. there is no variety. You get everything.

Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Vannor

Rift...

I don't see any competition against Rift's soul system. There are other recent games with lots of build variety but only because they limit the amount of skills you can choose to use and/or the differences are extremely passive (like GW2's talent system).

Limit is good. Limit force choices, and choices leads to variety.

If everyone can have all skills ..all to the max .. there is no variety. You get everything.

Well, yeh, even Rift's system has limits. What I mean though is that the only reason there is a lot of variety is because the limits are harder enforced... yet, Rift has much more freedom and still offers more build options than the more limited ones.

Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

I'll throw TSW's (b2p) build variety into the ring; over 772 million possible builds (though much fewer that are truly viable) and the ability for one character to equip any weapon, any ability and play any role. Check out the below sites:

Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Purutzil

Um... what? lol Sorry I know I'm in some ways derailing the conversation but... how is Path of Exile and Diablo 3 together on a title about Build variety? Path of Exile of course, but Diablo 3 has such little variety. Its a big reason why Diablo 3 became so lack luster for the Dungeon crawler community. Diablo 3 is NOT a good game to list when talking about build variety. Mindless fun? Sure, but theres extremely little as far as build variety in that game.

I just listed 7 wizard builds, with vastly different play-style. If you are not familiar with those builds, i can link you to youtube videos. And that is just 7 i can remember off the top of my head. There are more.

Now tell me ... in what other games that have so many builds for just one class. Now you may not LIKE the game, or even those builds, but you can't deny they exists. You can easily find youtube videos, or forum discussions.

And i have personally tried quite a few of those builds. If that is not variety, there is no variety in games. Don't tell me a build that depends on a laser beam is the same as a build that call meteors from sky (which requires a delay timing before it hits).

And I can make over 200 builds for a character in Rift, it doesn't mean all those builds are viable or even drastically different from one another. Its just silly to call it a 'build' when its something that can instantaniously be done and changes very little. Honestly you say 'vastly different' play styles but they aren't very different at all. I'll make a safe bet i can name 2 abilities on the bar, 3 if your playing HC with the 4th ability being between two likely 'armor' types you will be using as a wizard.

It just bothers me since you compare D3 and lets face it, PoE VASTLY outnumbers Diablo 3 in possible build combinations and possibilities. It allows for that. Vastly different? EH... depends, but honestly thats the same with D3, though its far more strict. Don't get me wrong they are making more stuff 'viable' in D3, but its stil a "why use this when I can just instantly swap this to be more efficient' which to me tarnishes the concept of a build. I actually PLAY d3 sometimes, I do enjoy it as a mindless little dungeon crawler from time to time as its very well polished but its NOT something that has very many 'builds' sorry to say.

But yeah, anyways if you want build variety Rift is a good example of a game with it, though honestly a lot of MMos tend to allow this to some extent, many which can possibly live up to D3 standerds though obviously PoE build style can be a bit more difficult to pull off in a traditional MMO thats attempting a good balance.

Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

Originally posted by Purutzil

And I can make over 200 builds for a character in Rift, it doesn't mean all those builds are viable or even drastically different from one another. Its just silly to call it a 'build' when its something that can instantaniously be done and changes very little. Honestly you say 'vastly different' play styles but they aren't very different at all. I'll make a safe bet i can name 2 abilities on the bar, 3 if your playing HC with the 4th ability being between two likely 'armor' types you will be using as a wizard.

All the build i listed are, of course viable. If you just want to list combinations, there are millions of combinations. ANd have you ACTUALLY tried the play styles?Just some examples:

- CM wiz ... stunlock CC everything with stationary energy twister.

- healer blades ... melee and keep yourself alive with blade attacks

- archon a) perma ... beam but run fast to find mobs to kill

b) hybrid .. don't need to run fast, but need to refresh when beam is out.

- meteor .. have to time when to hit.

Just those are very different tactics .. some you need to run around, some not. And have different gear requirement.And we haven't even look at gimmick ones like Sleet storm (and if you don't think is viable, look on youtube).

It just bothers me since you compare D3 and lets face it, PoE VASTLY outnumbers Diablo 3 in possible build combinations and possibilities. It allows for that. Vastly different? EH... depends, but honestly thats the same with D3, though its far more strict. Don't get me wrong they are making more stuff 'viable' in D3, but its stil a "why use this when I can just instantly swap this to be more efficient' which to me tarnishes the concept of a build. I actually PLAY d3 sometimes, I do enjoy it as a mindless little dungeon crawler from time to time as its very well polished but its NOT something that has very many 'builds' sorry to say.

Like you say possiblilities != viable builds. The number of combiantion in PoE is due to the graph ... and are there that many viable ones? If i want to maximize DPS, is there only 1 solution?

Let me put it this way .. there are quite a few viable builds for D3. Surely there is a most effieicent one (actually 2 .. people don't agree) but many are close enough and vary depends on if you want quick XP run, or quick mob run, or elite runs. I have tried many and keep on playing many BECUASE they are all viable.

And what is many? i am sure there are at least 7 (not counting variations that i use) in Wiz. How many truely viable ones for PoE for a single character? Now i don't deny it may be more ... but 7+ with variations is many to me.

But yeah, anyways if you want build variety Rift is a good example of a game with it, though honestly a lot of MMos tend to allow this to some extent, many which can possibly live up to D3 standerds though obviously PoE build style can be a bit more difficult to pull off in a traditional MMO thats attempting a good balance.

Don't get me wrong. I am NOT dissing PoE. However, i think the actual passive graph is not that great for diversity because it si just numbers and you can optimize. THe ONLY place i think PoE is great .. is the potential combo of skill gems. And i think the number there (i did look at a list) does NOT vastly outnumber D3.

Let me put it this way ... a CM wiz in D3 is really different from a Archon wiz .. because you are stronger to certain mobs, you do different thing in fighting .. and so on.

But numbers in passive bonus don't help with that kind of diversity. A 50% more effective CM wiz is not very different than a 75% effecive CM wiz.

Report this post

Explain why you are reporting this post:(750 characters max.)

Originally posted by Ortwig

I'll throw TSW's (b2p) build variety into the ring; over 772 million possible builds (though much fewer that are truly viable) and the ability for one character to equip any weapon, any ability and play any role. Check out the below sites:

Back in old WOW .. there are theoretically many combinations for each class. But effectively 3 viable builds.

In D3 .. the combinations are also in the millions, but just for wiz, i can count 7-10 viable builds, even not considering variations (for example, if i just play archon, i will put on different armor depending on my purpose and what i fight .. speed farming run is different from boss/elite runs).

So how many viable ones .. or at lesat those people talk about and put it in a list .. in TSW?