Strange that a Florida fan would make this argument since Florida would lose one of its two national titles under the "best team" theory.

Boston Red

04-03-2011, 01:50 PM

The NCAA Tournament is, by the way, basically perfect, and there's no way it should change just because the "right" teams don't win.

WVRed

04-03-2011, 02:27 PM

UConn=Goliath
Butler(Rightly or Wrongly)=David

Viewers eat that up.

If CBS were really that concerned with ratings, tip off with would be at 8:30 p.m EDT rather than 9:20 EDT.

I'm with Donder here.

This is where I disagree.

UConn might be the bigger school and have more resources than Butler, but appeal wise outside of the Northeast, I'd venture to say nobody really cares.

Last year, Duke was in the tournament. With Coach K and the ESPN love affair, you either love the Dookies or you hate them. I don't think there is the indifference between the two.

This year, you had Kentucky. Calipari has had two final fours vacated at two different schools so you have that factor. Add in people's general dislike for the Big Blue and the fans. It's another love-hate relationship that is going to draw ratings.

Then you have UConn, who has been successful, but doesn't have that polarizing feel that a Duke or UK brings to the television. They are trying to market Kemba Walker, but a player can only do so much, but it matters more which name is on the front of the jersey.

dabvu2498

04-03-2011, 02:33 PM

The NCAA Tournament is, by the way, basically perfect, and there's no way it should change just because the "right" teams don't win.

+ a hundred million trillion

Razor Shines

04-03-2011, 03:18 PM

The NCAA Tournament is, by the way, basically perfect, and there's no way it should change just because the "right" teams don't win.

Nah, let's get the bcs to see if they can fix college bball. Butler doesn't look the part and they're boring and I don't know anything about basketball so I'm not gonna watch unless someone corrects this and puts duke and Ohio st. in the championship.

Revering4Blue

04-03-2011, 05:00 PM

Strange that a Florida fan would make this argument since Florida would lose one of its two national titles under the "best team" theory.

To be fair, TBL did state the following in a previous thread.

Revering4Blue

04-03-2011, 05:11 PM

I am anything but a Kansas fan.....but the fact is, Self does not have a good post-season history. Check out one of their message boards to see the furor.

And I won't argue your point about post-season tourneys. In fact, I find them meaningless.

Oh, I wasn't trying to paint you as a Kansas fan. My points--and maybe I did a poor job of stating them--are:

>In a one-and-done tournament, Kansas may have still lost to VCU with Phoag Allen in his prime coaching them.

>At the end of the day, Self has 1 National title as Kansas coach. Roy Williams, despite coaching several eventual NBA first round picks, never coached a Kansas team to a title. Granted, he's coached two UNC teams to the title, so he definitely knows what he is doing.

Revering4Blue

04-03-2011, 05:21 PM

This is where I disagree.

UConn might be the bigger school and have more resources than Butler, but appeal wise outside of the Northeast, I'd venture to say nobody really cares.

Last year, Duke was in the tournament. With Coach K and the ESPN love affair, you either love the Dookies or you hate them. I don't think there is the indifference between the two.

This year, you had Kentucky. Calipari has had two final fours vacated at two different schools so you have that factor. Add in people's general dislike for the Big Blue and the fans. It's another love-hate relationship that is going to draw ratings.

Then you have UConn, who has been successful, but doesn't have that polarizing feel that a Duke or UK brings to the television. They are trying to market Kemba Walker, but a player can only do so much, but it matters more which name is on the front of the jersey.

Duke and Kentucky definitely have more drawing power. That much is true.
But UConn has been every bit as successful the past 12 years or so. So it's not as if Butler is facing an also-ran.

I believe, at least this year, that many will root against UConn because of the resentment of having the "This season's Big East Conference is/was the toughest ever" argument shoved down their throats. Granted, much of that is perpetuated by the ESPN/Northeast-East spin machine.

redsfanmia

04-03-2011, 05:41 PM

Duke and Kentucky definitely have more drawing power. That much is true.
But UConn has been every bit as successful the past 12 years or so. So it's not as if Butler is facing an also-ran.

I believe, at least this year, that many will root against UConn because of the resentment of having the "This season's Big East Conference is/was the toughest ever" argument shoved down their throats. Granted, much of that is perpetuated by the ESPN/Northeast-East spin machine.

I think most will root for Butler because of the scandal at UConn as well, it seems that the whole scandal has been brushed under the rug and forgotten.

WVRed

04-03-2011, 05:49 PM

Duke and Kentucky definitely have more drawing power. That much is true.
But UConn has been every bit as successful the past 12 years or so. So it's not as if Butler is facing an also-ran.

I believe, at least this year, that many will root against UConn because of the resentment of having the "This season's Big East Conference is/was the toughest ever" argument shoved down their throats. Granted, much of that is perpetuated by the ESPN/Northeast-East spin machine.

I'm not doubting UConn's success. Calhoun is a HOF coach and what UConn has done this season in both the Big East and NCAA tournament has been remarkable, especially with so many young players on their team.

My point is though that UConn doesn't have the level of love/hate on a national scale to bring in ratings. The Big East is the toughest conference ever argument will probably turn off fans, but a lot of that was vindicated by all but two teams being out by the second round.

CBS did everything possible to bill this game as the Kemba Walker/UConn show, but watching the game yesterday and looking at the student section, it was only 1/3 of the way full. Given that Kentucky fans likely made up the majority of ticketbuyers, I am kinda curious how many will eat their tickets for tomorrow and head home early. Not only could ratings suffer for this game, but so could attendance. This tournament could have the words "Epic Fail" written all over it, even if Butler wins.

Boston Red

04-03-2011, 06:40 PM

Why does anyone other than CBS care about ratings? And those tickets were all bought, so the NCAA will probably get over it if there are some empty seats.

Redsfaithful

04-03-2011, 07:14 PM

The argument for me against the BCS isn't that it's unfair (although it can be), it's that playoffs would be more fun. Like the basketball tournament.

TheBigLebowski

04-03-2011, 07:19 PM

The NCAA Tournament is, by the way, basically perfect, and there's no way it should change just because the "right" teams don't win.

Never said it should change. Just using this season's results as an aggravating factor towards the argument that college football absolutely needs a playoff.

How weird and improper would it be if Nevada and Penn State were playing for college football's title?

Donder

04-03-2011, 07:51 PM

Ok seriously now. This tournament is all about money for the schools and the majority of that money comes from advertising. Advertising is based on the eyeballs on tv sets during the game and this ones going to have very very low ones because there is a mid-major and one of the less compelling major conference schools involved. UConn has never been a 'sexy' school like a UK, Carolina, Duke, UCLA, Florida, Ohio State etc. So yeah, a low rated game matters to some people, myself included and I'm not an advertiser nor a member of CBS. Just because you have no interest doesn't mean others among us don't.

Alright. Except now I have to interject that I don't watch college sports to make major conference schools wealthier. There are some exceptions, but I can't imagine too many people (who will or will not be watching the game tomorrow night) who care how much money CBS or Duke's athletic department is making from the game.

reds1869

04-03-2011, 11:13 PM

I understand wanting the western half of the country to tune in, but a 9:23 tip for the east? That is absolutely brutal. An 8:30 ET tip would allow those on the west coast to watch the game while also allowing kids (and sleepy old folks) in the eastern time zone to watch the entire game.

kaldaniels

04-04-2011, 12:53 AM

Somewhere Jim Nantz is looking into a mirror practicing his deliverance of "The Butler Did It!" line, should Butler win.

Boston Red

04-04-2011, 01:27 AM

Somewhere Jim Nantz is looking into a mirror practicing his deliverance of "The Butler Did It!" line, should Butler win.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.... there isn't that much difference between the bluebloods and the excellent mid-majors any more. There used to be but there isn't any more. I think the NCAAs expose teams for who they are, big time or not.

And.... from the sweet 16 on, there is no shame in losing.

Hoosier Red

04-04-2011, 11:22 AM

The argument for me against the BCS isn't that it's unfair (although it can be), it's that playoffs would be more fun. Like the basketball tournament.

I think that's a fair point. But as much as people like a tournament style of play for how much fun it is, the end result is usually less desirable.

Not that I care about ratings one way or another, but I think it can be an indication of how the public really feels about a championship game.

Forgetting how they got there, would you rather a)watch a championship game between the 9th place Big East squad, and a team that would have been sweating Selection Sunday had it not won its conference tournament,

or

b) A championship game between two teams who were pretty much unquestionably the best teams in a given year.

The reason this stood out to me this year in particular was that the BCS championship game was so popular, even though the two teams were not exactly blue bloods. Not saying anything about the quality of the teams, but when you think of the SEC, you probably think of three or four traditional powers before you get to Auburn. When you think of the Pac 10(12) you think of USC, or Cal and Stanford.

So it's not like outside of the actual fans of the respective programs, you had a built in audience.

bucksfan2

04-04-2011, 11:58 AM

I think that's a fair point. But as much as people like a tournament style of play for how much fun it is, the end result is usually less desirable.

Not that I care about ratings one way or another, but I think it can be an indication of how the public really feels about a championship game.

Forgetting how they got there, would you rather a)watch a championship game between the 9th place Big East squad, and a team that would have been sweating Selection Sunday had it not won its conference tournament,

or

b) A championship game between two teams who were pretty much unquestionably the best teams in a given year.

The reason this stood out to me this year in particular was that the BCS championship game was so popular, even though the two teams were not exactly blue bloods. Not saying anything about the quality of the teams, but when you think of the SEC, you probably think of three or four traditional powers before you get to Auburn. When you think of the Pac 10(12) you think of USC, or Cal and Stanford.

So it's not like outside of the actual fans of the respective programs, you had a built in audience.

I was thinking about this when the Final 4 was finalized. Don't get me wrong I love the tournament, the first two days of the tournament are probably my favorite two days in sports. The excitement, the buzzer beaters, the upsets, etc. But after those first two days I want chalk. I want the best teams to win. I want to see the best teams play against the best teams in the elite 8, final four, and title game.

I like the story of the upstart making the Final 4. I like the VCU's of the world giving a big up yours to the Jay Bilas' of the world. I just don't want the VCU's of the world creating big time mismatches in the title game. I am an OSU alum and a big fan of the team. This was probably my favorite OSU season that I can remember. The team was probably the best team in my memory and the regular season was a great deal of fun for me. But then they had one off day and their season was over to a UK team. It kinda cheapened the regular season.

I guess the way I look at it, I love the tournament, love the upsets, but want chalk after the first weekend.

WVRed

04-04-2011, 12:15 PM

I am an UK alum and a big fan of the team. This was probably my favorite UK season that I can remember. The team was probably the best team in my memory and the regular season was a great deal of fun for me. But then they had one off day and their season was over to a WVU team. It kinda cheapened the regular season.

Not a UK alum, but that pretty much sums up how many UK fans felt last year when we lost in the Elite Eight.

RichRed

04-04-2011, 12:41 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again.... there isn't that much difference between the bluebloods and the excellent mid-majors any more. There used to be but there isn't any more. I think the NCAAs expose teams for who they are, big time or not.

Absolutely correct.

RichRed

04-04-2011, 12:50 PM

Can we make a blanket statement like it "doesn't change the fact that they did not have one of the 37 best resumes in the at large pool"? I'd say it's not only debatable, I'd say the committee has a good argument to defend its case. It's no secret that RPI is weighted very heavily and Colorado (65)and Virginia Tech (62) had a much lower RPI than VCU did (49). Now whether you value the RPI is, like ice cream, up to each person's individual tastes.

The act of choosing the best team(s) is an inexact science. The truth is there is no right or wrong way to determine who deserves the last at large bid but the Big Shots at ESPN think what they say is Gospel. If they say a team didn't deserve a bid then that's a fact. I'd say VCU's performance has proven that their method of determining the last bid is inferior to the committee's.

I agree, and I'll ask this again: why did Colorado and Va. Tech deserve VCU's spot? First, it's debateable whether they deserved a spot at all. Second, why didn't they deserve a spot awarded to one of the FIVE 14-loss teams that received at-large bids...

Could it be because all those teams mentioned above come from BCS conferences and therefore unquestionably deserved their bids, according to the likes of Bilas, Digger, and Vitale?

Nah, that can't be it.

Kingspoint

04-04-2011, 08:53 PM

Go Huskies!

Revering4Blue

04-04-2011, 09:17 PM

NM

paintmered

04-04-2011, 11:09 PM

19 up with under a minute to go in the first half. Pretty basketball it isn't.

Cedric

04-04-2011, 11:10 PM

Whoever wins tonight will be the worst champion in major sports history.

I'm not being dramatic either.

:)

BuckeyeRed27

04-04-2011, 11:11 PM

22-19 butler at the half. Pretty brutal game so far. Uconn hasn't scored in like 7 minutes.

VottoFan54

04-04-2011, 11:11 PM

That was quite a shot by Mack to end the half, neither team is going to reach 50 points at this rate.

Newport Red

04-04-2011, 11:12 PM

But they will be champions and that is the goal.

Boston Red

04-04-2011, 11:16 PM

Whoever wins tonight will be the worst champion in major sports history.

I'm not being dramatic either.

:)

Better to be the worst champion ever than the best team to not win a championship.

Cedric

04-04-2011, 11:17 PM

Better to be the worst champion ever than the best team to not win a championship.

Nobody would argue that. I still don't think it changes my point.

Reds Fanatic

04-05-2011, 12:11 AM

It is amazing how bad Butler has shot tonight. They are shooting about 15% for the game and this half have 8 points in 14 minutes.

paintmered

04-05-2011, 12:20 AM

Butler for three......clank!

BuckeyeRed27

04-05-2011, 12:27 AM

Ugly

Boston Red

04-05-2011, 12:31 AM

There it was Butler. It was all there for you. And you completely sucked.

Butler will never have that opportunity again.

KronoRed

04-05-2011, 12:35 AM

Can we get an *? this was awful basketball.

paintmered

04-05-2011, 12:38 AM

Can we get an *? this was awful basketball.

Ugly basketball? Absolutely. But there have been plenty of ugly championship games over the years.

UCONN (Kemba especially) was brilliant in their previous 10 consecutive single-elimination wins and tonight shouldn't detract from the legitimacy of their title. I'd say the same thing if Butler won.

Butler doesn't have the athleticism of UCONN. Butler has certainly overcome this many times, but it does force them into a low-scoring, slug it out kind of game. Combine this with a defense-first, Big East style of play from UCONN and a bad shooting night from Butler, and well, this is what you get.

Razor Shines

04-05-2011, 12:44 AM

I don't see how some people can't appreciate what butler does to other teams on defense. They play team defense as well as anyone in the nation. There's a reason that every coach says 'they're the most physical team we played all year' or something like that.

They aren't offensively talented but they force other teams to do things they don't want to do.

Cincy4Life

04-05-2011, 01:25 AM

Another great season for Butler but they couldn't hit a shot to save thier life tonite. :(

cumberlandreds

04-05-2011, 09:16 AM

I didn't watch the game but this had to set college basketball back about 30 years. This is the type of score you would see before the shot clock! In the words of Charles Barkley, "This is just turrrrrrrible!".

bucksfan2

04-05-2011, 09:49 AM

THUD. That is the way the college basketball season ended. THUD. You can't convince me that those teams were in the top 15 in basketball this season. They won the tournament I but man was that brutal.

Sea Ray

04-05-2011, 11:35 AM

The Big East looks a lot better than it did a couple weeks ago. My how things change. U Conn wins it all while losing 9 games--all in Big East play. Runnerup Butler edged out Pitt by one pt in order to get there. That says a lot for your league. I don't see any other league with 10, 11 teams like the Big East has.

Dominant BB teams were not part of the men's NCAA field this year. Having established that, playing all those teams in a Big East schedule is brutal

Oxblood

04-05-2011, 11:35 AM

The tournament got progressively worse w/ each round.

dabvu2498

04-05-2011, 11:51 AM

The tournament got progressively worse w/ each round.

I thought the regional final (Elite 8) games were phenominal.

Puffy

04-05-2011, 11:55 AM

I don't see how some people can't appreciate what butler does to other teams on defense. They play team defense as well as anyone in the nation. There's a reason that every coach says 'they're the most physical team we played all year' or something like that.

They aren't offensively talented but they force other teams to do things they don't want to do.

Its why Brad Stevens is such a hot commodity. Dude can coach.

And to whoever said, "Butler will never have that opportunity again" I would venture to say that the same phrase was uttered last year at this same time.......yet they just made it back to a second consecutive championship game.

Puffy

04-05-2011, 12:01 PM

THUD. That is the way the college basketball season ended. THUD. You can't convince me that those teams were in the top 15 in basketball this season. They won the tournament I but man was that brutal.

Really?? a UConn team that won the Maui Invitational (that had Kentucky, Michigan State, Washington and Wichita State), won the Big East Tournament by winning 5 games in 5 days by beating Georgetown, Pitt, Syracuse and Louisville back to back to back to back, and then winning another 6 straight games is not one of the top 15 teams in the country??????

bucksfan2

04-05-2011, 12:07 PM

Really?? a UConn team that won the Maui Invitational (that had Kentucky, Michigan State, Washington and Wichita State), won the Big East Tournament by winning 5 games in 5 days by beating Georgetown, Pitt, Syracuse and Louisville back to back to back to back, and then winning another 6 straight games is not one of the top 15 teams in the country??????

Yea, really. Don't get me wrong UConn was a good team. Led by a superstar player but the rest of the team, sans Lamb, was kinda blah. They played good defense and got hot at the right time. They were a team that I couldn't believe kept winning.

Maybe they just played to the level of their opponents but that title game was awful. It was clank after clank after clank. I know some of it had to do with defense, but some of it had to do with poor basketball. I guess UConn got hot at the right time. They were hot at the start of the season then hot at the end of the season. They won 6 games in row to finish it off and you can't take it away from them. The game, and tournament for me, was lacking as each round went on.

Razor Shines

04-05-2011, 12:12 PM

Yea, really. Don't get me wrong UConn was a good team. Led by a superstar player but the rest of the team, sans Lamb, was kinda blah. They played good defense and got hot at the right time. They were a team that I couldn't believe kept winning.

Maybe they just played to the level of their opponents but that title game was awful. It was clank after clank after clank. I know some of it had to do with defense, but some of it had to do with poor basketball. I guess UConn got hot at the right time. They were hot at the start of the season then hot at the end of the season. They won 6 games in row to finish it off and you can't take it away from them. The game, and tournament for me, was lacking as each round went on.

You don't think that has anything to do with the fact that your team got knocked out?

bucksfan2

04-05-2011, 12:20 PM

You don't think that has anything to do with the fact that your team got knocked out?

No not really. Do I think my team (OSU) was better than UConn? Absolutely. But that is besides the fact. UConn won and I give them credit. But I think that may have been the worst NCAA Finals game I have ever watched.

I just want to see good basketball at the end. I want to see the best teams play at the end. I just don't think this tournament provided that. That game was just brutal.

BuckeyeRed27

04-05-2011, 12:25 PM

No not really. Do I think my team (OSU) was better than UConn? Absolutely. But that is besides the fact. UConn won and I give them credit. But I think that may have been the worst NCAA Finals game I have ever watched.

I just want to see good basketball at the end. I want to see the best teams play at the end. I just don't think this tournament provided that. That game was just brutal.

Completely agree. I also love that unless you cheer for UConn your team got knocked out, but for some reason only OSU fans can't be objective about the fact that was an awful game.

Razor Shines

04-05-2011, 12:35 PM

Completely agree. I also love that unless you cheer for UConn your team got knocked out, but for some reason only OSU fans can't be objective about the fact that was an awful game.

Oh really? Who said that? Can I get a link?

Roy Tucker

04-05-2011, 12:47 PM

Yeah, that game was brutal but that's how the process (NCAA tournament) worked out. Everyone had their shot and UConn and Butler made it. I'd put them in the Top 15.

We could have a BCS for basketball and we'll just pick Kansas and Duke (or OSU or Pitt) and have them play in the Finals and skip all these annoying teams.

Butler reminds me a bit of the early 90's Knicks who played killer defense and completely clogged up teams they played. Effective, but really ugly.

BuckeyeRed27

04-05-2011, 12:48 PM

Oh really? Who said that? Can I get a link?

Umm you did about 4 posts up. Someone else replied with something similar to my post after the Elite 8.

Chip R

04-05-2011, 12:53 PM

I just want to see good basketball at the end. I want to see the best teams play at the end. I just don't think this tournament provided that. That game was just brutal.

That's the beauty about sports. This isn't a video game where you can reset if you don't like how the game is going. There's no guarantee the national championship game is going to be a classic or a stinker. If you put Kentucky or Ohio State or Duke or North Carolina in there instead of Butler or U Conn and it may have been the same type of game. Up until the past several years it was almost a guarantee that the Super Bowl was going to be a bad game. If the same two teams tipped it off again tomorrow night we might have a barnburner.

Razor Shines

04-05-2011, 01:08 PM

Umm you did about 4 posts up. Someone else replied with something similar to my post after the Elite 8.

Umm, no I didn't. I simply asked a question, an honest question. I had to ask myself the same question.

I like Butler because I'm from Indianapolis but it would be disingenuous of me to say that Butler is "my team". I'm an IU fan but I'm also a pretty big Duke fan and wanted them to repeat.

I don't like UConn at all but I have a hard time believing that UConn isn't a really good team. Butler as well for that matter. Butler isn't offensively talented but they play team defense as well as anyone in the country, as well as any team has in a while.

What makes a good team? Is it a bunch of supremely talented guys that play pretty well together? Yes. A bunch of semi talented guys that play supreme team defense? Yes. Butler doesn't have a lot of good players but they are a good team. Top 15? Yes.

Kingspoint

04-05-2011, 01:24 PM

Really?? a UConn team that won the Maui Invitational (that had Kentucky, Michigan State, Washington and Wichita State), won the Big East Tournament by winning 5 games in 5 days by beating Georgetown, Pitt, Syracuse and Louisville back to back to back to back, and then winning another 6 straight games is not one of the top 15 teams in the country??????

That's just too much logic to fathom.

Kingspoint

04-05-2011, 01:28 PM

It was pretty obvious that UConn was simply a lot more talented than Butler was. UConn was faster at every position, while Butler choked big time, something UConn didn't do at all. When the games got tighter and the pressure was greater, the talent of UConn came through time and time again. You don't dominate three tournaments (Maui, Big East, NCAA) the way they did without being the best team in the country. And, they dominated the Championship Game. The game was over seven minutes into the second half.

WVRed

04-05-2011, 01:33 PM

I read ESPN.com last night to get a synopsis of the game. After seeing the score and how horrible Butler played, I think the ESPN spin of UConn's great defense is kinda exaggerated. UConn just sucked less.

dabvu2498

04-05-2011, 01:37 PM

Agreed, WV. Butler missed a ton of open shots.

BuckeyeRed27

04-05-2011, 01:38 PM

Umm, no I didn't. I simply asked a question, an honest question. I had to ask myself the same question.

I like Butler because I'm from Indianapolis but it would be disingenuous of me to say that Butler is "my team". I'm an IU fan but I'm also a pretty big Duke fan and wanted them to repeat.

I don't like UConn at all but I have a hard time believing that UConn isn't a really good team. Butler as well for that matter. Butler isn't offensively talented but they play team defense as well as anyone in the country, as well as any team has in a while.

What makes a good team? Is it a bunch of supremely talented guys that play pretty well together? Yes. A bunch of semi talented guys that play supreme team defense? Yes. Butler doesn't have a lot of good players but they are a good team. Top 15? Yes.

Well my apologies then. It was the second or third time that someone had questioned an OSU fan that had been critical of something in the tournament and I misjudged the tone of your post.

I don't have a problem with UConn winning, but it does prove that all you need to do is get hot at the right time not be the best team. Butler plays excellent team ball and certainly gets the absolute most out of what they have and Brad Stevens is an excellent coach. That said Butler is not and was not a Top 15 team this year. I would say they were properly seeded at #8 which would make them about a Top 40 team and then got some nice bounces to get to the Finals.

dabvu2498

04-05-2011, 01:43 PM

FWIW, in the final AP poll of the season, UConn was 9th. Butler was 33rd.

Oxblood

04-05-2011, 02:18 PM

OSU vs. Kansas for the real title. lol, but srs I'd watch.

Sea Ray

04-05-2011, 03:22 PM

I read ESPN.com last night to get a synopsis of the game. After seeing the score and how horrible Butler played, I think the ESPN spin of UConn's great defense is kinda exaggerated. UConn just sucked less.

UConn couldn't have beaten most good teams last night. Let's face it, wouldn't you expect a blowout when your opponent shoots 18.8% from the field?

bucksfan2

04-05-2011, 03:24 PM

UConn couldn't have beaten most good teams last night. Let's face it, wouldn't you expect a blowout when your opponent shoots 18.8% from the field?

And how many games do you win shooting 35% from the field?

Sea Ray

04-05-2011, 03:36 PM

And how many games do you win shooting 35% from the field?

You're not likely to beat good teams doing that, hence my point

redsfanmia

04-05-2011, 03:55 PM

I read ESPN.com last night to get a synopsis of the game. After seeing the score and how horrible Butler played, I think the ESPN spin of UConn's great defense is kinda exaggerated. UConn just sucked less.

I have come the realization that missing alot of shots is not playing horribly so I don't think Butler played horribly. I think playing basketball in a gigantic stadium not built to play basketball in has alot to do with the horrible shooting. I think it is an over statement to say that Butler played horrible, shot horrible yes, but not played horrible.

Chip R

04-05-2011, 04:02 PM

I have come the realization that missing alot of shots is not playing horribly so I don't think Butler played horribly. I think playing basketball in a gigantic stadium not built to play basketball in has alot to do with the horrible shooting. I think it is an over statement to say that Butler played horrible, shot horrible yes, but not played horrible.

They played the semis in the same stadium and both teams shot better than they did last night.

Kingspoint

04-05-2011, 04:35 PM

It's called pressure.

Butler choked.

Connecticut didn't.

redsfanmia

04-05-2011, 04:37 PM

It's called pressure.

Butler choked.

Connecticut didn't.

Butler did not shoot well, the shots did not fall, happens to all great players and teams.

Razor Shines

04-05-2011, 04:44 PM

It's called pressure.

Butler choked.

Connecticut didn't.

Oh please. They didn't choke. All these guys were in that game last year vs. Duke.

Sea Ray

04-05-2011, 05:02 PM

Butler did not shoot well, the shots did not fall, happens to all great players and teams.

You make it sound like it could happen to anyone but the truth is it hasn't.

Butler set a record for poor shooting in an NCAA Championship game. Nobody's ever shot 18% before regardless of venue, biorhythms or whatever

Orenda

04-05-2011, 06:34 PM

I didn't watch the game but this had to set college basketball back about 30 years. This is the type of score you would see before the shot clock! In the words of Charles Barkley, "This is just turrrrrrrible!".

I don't know about that, both teams missed shots but both teams played really well defensively. Butler plays great team defense and as Brad Stevens said himself they hadn't played a team all year who defended with the intensity that UCONN did. I don't think basketball was set back, I think for the most part the game was an anomaly, I think UCONN was the better team but if played again I would expect something more along the lines of a 62-70 score.

I find a lot of things to criticize when it comes to how poorly a lot of teams scheme offense these days but on the flip-side there are a lot of scorers who are very over-rated and IMO a lot of people who are deluded by the ppg mentality. If you average 25 points per game and the guy your guarding gets 20 that means you net +5, not +25.

I really didn't care for the TNT (except for Greg Anderson) guys doing the NCAA games because they are NBA guys and the NBA is a completely different animal. Defensive 3 seconds, way more isolation, rules that benefit the offensive player and IMO not surprisingly increase the number of dollar generating highlights.

Orenda

04-05-2011, 07:56 PM

I don't know about that, both teams missed shots but both teams played really well defensively. Butler plays great team defense and as Brad Stevens said himself they hadn't played a team all year who defended with the intensity that UCONN did. I don't think basketball was set back, I think for the most part the game was an anomaly, I think UCONN was the better team but if played again I would expect something more along the lines of a 62-70 score.

I find a lot of things to criticize when it comes to how poorly a lot of teams scheme offense these days but on the flip-side there are a lot of scorers who are very over-rated and IMO a lot of people who are deluded by the ppg mentality. If you average 25 points per game and the guy your guarding gets 20 that means you net +5, not +25.

I really didn't care for the TNT (except for Greg Anderson) guys doing the NCAA games because they are NBA guys and the NBA is a completely different animal. Defensive 3 seconds, way more isolation, rules that benefit the offensive player and IMO not surprisingly increase the number of dollar generating highlights.

freudian slip. Greg Anthony is a pretty good college basketball analyst imo.

KoryMac5

04-05-2011, 07:56 PM

The game indeed was terrible but you can't take anything away from UCONN or Calhoun. You can only beat the teams that are in front of you. OSU lost, Pitt lost, Florida lost, NC lost, Duke lost, My Orange lost etc... UConn survived a crazy tournament and deserved to be Nat'l Champions because they beat every team that was put in front of them. I also think it is time to list Jim Calhoun in the same breath as some of the best coaches out there. 3 Championships is pretty darn good!

Butler played pretty awful but if you look at all 4 teams that played in the final 4 this week nobody shot above 40% except for UCONN. I think that says a lot right there in that it was a tough venue (Dome and tight rims) to play in and teams cranked up there D knowing shots would be tough to come by.

Overall I thought it was one of the best NCAA tournaments in a long time as far as excitement goes. Too bad the last game sucked!

Kingspoint

04-06-2011, 12:54 PM

Oh please. They didn't choke. All these guys were in that game last year vs. Duke.

It was the biggest choke job in the history of Championship Games. They missed more wide-open shots than any team ever.

Kingspoint

04-06-2011, 12:55 PM

Butler did not shoot well, the shots did not fall, happens to all great players and teams.

Not as badly as Butler did it, and not in a Championship Game.

Kingspoint

04-06-2011, 12:56 PM

I don't know about that, both teams missed shots but both teams played really well defensively. Butler plays great team defense and as Brad Stevens said himself they hadn't played a team all year who defended with the intensity that UCONN did.

Exactly! It's called Big East Basketball. And, Butler couldn't handle it from the best of the Big East. Butler was completely dominated. The game was over for them before it began. They couldn't handle Connecticut's pressure along with the pressure of the Championship Game. It was like watching nags versus thoroughbreds.

WVRed

04-06-2011, 01:37 PM

Exactly! It's called Big East Basketball. And, Butler couldn't handle it from the best of the Big East. Butler was completely dominated. The game was over for them before it began. They couldn't handle Connecticut's pressure along with the pressure of the Championship Game. It was like watching nags versus thoroughbreds.

As bad as Butler was (and it was bad), UConn would have lost to probably any of the number one or number two seeds in the tournament if they would have shot 35% from the field. Hence my comment, UConn didn't win with great defense, they just sucked less than Butler.

As for the Big East, I live in West Virginia and follow the Big East quite a bit. The Big East is a different animal alltogether because it is so big and there are so many different styles of play. WVU, UConn, and Syracuse are grind it out type of teams. You also have teams such as Louisville and Notre Dame who are more uptempo and can score points rather quickly.

Razor Shines

04-06-2011, 01:44 PM

Exactly! It's called Big East Basketball. And, Butler couldn't handle it from the best of the Big East. Butler was completely dominated. The game was over for them before it began. They couldn't handle Connecticut's pressure along with the pressure of the Championship Game. It was like watching nags versus thoroughbreds.

Whoa, whoa whoa. Did Bulter Choke or did they get dominated? Don't think it can be both.

You said:

It was the biggest choke job in the history of Championship Games. They missed more wide-open shots than any team ever.

So if they were so dominated how were they getting all these wide open shots?

I agree that Butler missed a lot of open shots but I still don't think they choked. I just think they had a really bad shooting game. They don't have a lot of great shooters anyway.

I think the answer is somewhere between "getting dominated" and "choking".

redsfanmia

04-06-2011, 02:10 PM

Exactly! It's called Big East Basketball. And, Butler couldn't handle it from the best of the Big East. Butler was completely dominated. The game was over for them before it began. They couldn't handle Connecticut's pressure along with the pressure of the Championship Game. It was like watching nags versus thoroughbreds.

Didn't Butler beat Pittburgh who went 15-3 and won the regular season
Big East championship? Wouldn't they be considered the best Big East team?

BuckeyeRed27

04-06-2011, 02:40 PM

Didn't Butler beat Pittburgh who went 15-3 and won the regular season
Big East championship? Wouldn't they be considered the best Big East team?

Well only if you think the regular seaon matters.

RichRed

04-06-2011, 02:43 PM

Exactly! It's called Big East Basketball. And, Butler couldn't handle it from the best of the Big East. Butler was completely dominated. The game was over for them before it began. They couldn't handle Connecticut's pressure along with the pressure of the Championship Game. It was like watching nags versus thoroughbreds.

That would probably have been news to the Butler kids, as they sat in the locker room at halftime with a 3-point lead.

redsfanmia

04-06-2011, 03:21 PM

I just don't understand Butler hate, they are actual student atheletes and as a program seem to do everything right.

Razor Shines

04-06-2011, 03:31 PM

I just don't understand Butler hate, they are actual student atheletes and as a program seem to do everything right.

I don't think there is really any hate, maybe Kingspoint, I think people just generally don't think they were one of the better teams in the country.

redsfanmia

04-06-2011, 04:14 PM

I don't think there is really any hate, maybe Kingspoint, I think people just generally don't think they were one of the better teams in the country.

I can understand that, tournament play lends itself to upsets. How often do the best teams win in the NFL, MLB and CBB?

cincrazy

04-06-2011, 04:16 PM

Butler didn't choke. They're just not very good. They're not even a top 25 basketball team. They simply got hot at the right time, and had some favorable matchups. They NCAA tournament is nothing but a crapshoot. More often than not it's about who's luckiest, not who is best.

Orenda

04-06-2011, 05:37 PM

Butler didn't choke. They're just not very good. They're not even a top 25 basketball team. They simply got hot at the right time, and had some favorable matchups. They NCAA tournament is nothing but a crapshoot. More often than not it's about who's luckiest, not who is best.

Two years in a row they have played quality teams capable of exposing Butler yet all but two were found wanting. Make all the top 25 lists you want, but I only care when they keep score.

Razor Shines

04-06-2011, 05:47 PM

Two years in a row they have played quality teams capable of exposing Butler yet all but two were found wanting. Make all the top 25 lists you want, but I only care when they keep score.

That's because of the way they play defense. They have bought into the system all the way. They can get away with lesser talented offensive player because their defense is always going to be there.

Kingspoint

04-07-2011, 01:42 AM

No hate for Butler here.

They are better than every other team in the NCAA for the second year in a row, but one.

LexRedsFan

04-07-2011, 02:14 PM

I'm not doing a ton of backreading, but what does everyone think of this business of playing games in the huge football stadiums?

I went to the game in Houston, and I hate this new setup of putting the court at midfield instead of across an endzone like the NCAA used to do (and the SEC Tournament in the Georgia Dome, which I also attended, still does). You get put SO much farther away from the court. We had lower level seats, about 20 rows off the court and it felt like about 45 rows away.

Roy Tucker

04-07-2011, 02:35 PM

Seems to be purely a money thing. Open up the whole stadium and get a big $$$ gate. I would think it would stink to see the game there in person when the players are eetnsy-beentsy little ants running across a distant court.

On a related note, I didn't like to common look-and-feel of the black and blue NCAA courts for all the games. Everything on TV looked exactly the same. I couldn't tell Chicago from Cleveland from Charlotte from Houston, Anaheim, Super Dome, Alamo Dome, etc etc. I liked seeing different college courts.

dabvu2498

04-07-2011, 02:55 PM

Seems to be purely a money thing. Open up the whole stadium and get a big $$$ gate. I would think it would stink to see the game there in person when the players are eetnsy-beentsy little ants running across a distant court.

On a related note, I didn't like to common look-and-feel of the black and blue NCAA courts for all the games. Everything on TV looked exactly the same. I couldn't tell Chicago from Cleveland from Charlotte from Houston, Anaheim, Super Dome, Alamo Dome, etc etc. I liked seeing different college courts.

Also a money thing. Most college courts have some sort of ad on them that is not NCAA official. A few years ago they were putting stickers over those ads and having tons of issues with slippage during games. So they decided to just make 13 generic floors for the host cities.

LexRedsFan

04-07-2011, 10:56 PM

Seems to be purely a money thing. Open up the whole stadium and get a big $$$ gate. I would think it would stink to see the game there in person when the players are eetnsy-beentsy little ants running across a distant court.

On a related note, I didn't like to common look-and-feel of the black and blue NCAA courts for all the games. Everything on TV looked exactly the same. I couldn't tell Chicago from Cleveland from Charlotte from Houston, Anaheim, Super Dome, Alamo Dome, etc etc. I liked seeing different college courts.

It's most definitely a purely money thing. Don't get me wrong, it's not AWFUL -- it's still seeing my Wildcats in the final four and it doesn't get any better than that...but still.

Here's a picture from where I sat (crappy quality, haven't uploaded my pictures taken with my real camera..sorry -- I can put up a better quality later):

Here's a view from the top row of the lower level at Reliant (roughly my seats for Saturday at the SEC Tournament)
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/207241_1658430066859_1420350222_31439724_5446632_n .jpg

If that's too many pictures just let me know and I'll just link some instead.

Boston Red

04-07-2011, 11:21 PM

Butler didn't choke. They're just not very good. They're not even a top 25 basketball team.

Quick, name a team outside the top 25 with four wins as good as Old Dominion, Pitt, Wisconsin and Florida ALL YEAR. How about in the 21-25 category?

Boston Red

04-07-2011, 11:22 PM

If Xavier ever makes it, I'll have to go. Judging by those pictures, though, I'll either plan to spend a fortune or just have to resign myself to not really seeing the game (other than on the JumboTron).

And maybe both.

WVRed

04-07-2011, 11:29 PM

http://i.imgur.com/Jj40f.png

Notice one state that is bitter.

KronoRed

04-07-2011, 11:42 PM

What's Mississippi's problem? :D

LexRedsFan

04-08-2011, 03:09 AM

If Xavier ever makes it, I'll have to go. Judging by those pictures, though, I'll either plan to spend a fortune or just have to resign myself to not really seeing the game (other than on the JumboTron).

And maybe both.

Tickets weren't that bad. My seats at the top cost me 120 a piece (20 below face), and seats around where my friend was (he's a student too, and he used the student tickets so his were way cheap) were going for as low as 20 each by tip time.

FWIW, not all stadiums seem to be as bad as Reliant. I asked a UNC fan if he had any pictures from Ford Field in 2009, and here's what I got: