You could also argue that Henry, as king, made the law and therefore could manipulate them at his own will. As he considered each his wife and Queen at the time, they were therefore his lawful wives at one point.

The only wife I could actually see holding in question is Anne of Cleves. By all accounts, the marriage was never consumated. This was a hardcore requirement at the time. Remember that the claim of a consumated marriage between Catherine and Arthur was the grounds that Henry sought the annulment for in the first place.

You could also argue that Henry, as king, made the law and therefore could manipulate them at his own will. As he considered each his wife and Queen at the time, they were therefore his lawful wives at one point.

Actually, the Parliament of England made the law. Each of Henry's wives was considered his lawful wife at one point, but marriages of the four women were proclaimed never-existing by the same Church which blessed these "marriages". So, in the end, Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr are Henry's only undisputable wives.

Now when I think about it, Katherine of Aragon's marriage to Henry VIII was retroactively validated by her daughter Mary I and I am not sure whether Elizabeth I repealed her half-sister's act.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimebear

The only wife I could actually see holding in question is Anne of Cleves. By all accounts, the marriage was never consumated. This was a hardcore requirement at the time. Remember that the claim of a consumated marriage between Catherine and Arthur was the grounds that Henry sought the annulment for in the first place.

Anne Boleyn's marriage is even more questionable than Anne of Cleves's marriage - Anne Boleyn was never considered Henry's lawful wife by the Roman Catholic Church and the only church that recognized her as Henry's wife proclaimed her marriage null and void in May 1536. Furthermore, Anne Boleyn's daughter never claimed that she was legitimate.

Queen Elizabeth I, had a strange childhood, she was The Princess Elizabeth, The Lady Elizabeth, and then Queen. She was very lucky to survive and had one terrifying experience of being a prisoner in the Tower of London. She may not have proclaimed that she was legitimate but I would bet anything that no one in those times would have told her she wasn´t.

I have wondered whether Anne of Cleves might have been a lesbian. We all know that her relationship with Henry was unsuccessful, although I think he was largely to blame for that given his state of health.

But it seems rather odd that there were never any rumors of men around Anne (contrast that with the widowed queen Catherine Parr), and Tudor men were not picky, even if she was an unattractive woman. IMO Anne would have made a wonderful paramour for a Tudor man, given that Henry left her pretty well off. On the other hand, an unconventional relationship with a woman might have been easily concealed, considering that it was normal for a high-ranking lady to have attendants.

And it seems odd that Anne just disappears from history, with very little comment.

I think Anne of Cleves was just put off marriage by Henry VIII. The whole sitiuation must have at first confused her, she was from a foreign country and certainly not experienced with men, I think she was naive and not real sophisticated. That's one reason Henry didn't like her, he prefered more sophisicated, worldly women ( although not sexually experienced, at least in cases like Catharine Howard). Anne came from a provincial court and she likely just wanted peace and quiet and when she got it after the whole mess of her marriage to Henry, she likely assumed it was best. Her life could have been worse. She was wise enough not to want more. Any marriage she made could have caused trouble, like Katharine Parr's post Henry marriage to Edward's uncle. Nobody ever tried to match her up with anyone, either ( after Henry) maybe if they had, she would have gone along. It's hard to know.

About Anne of C. I think she liked the attention she received as Queen, but she certainly wanted to keep her head (although I think Henry would have hesitated to behead a foreign princess, it was only the English brides who received that treatment!) rather than fight to preserve her position. And I think her early life in Cleves probably wasn't so pleasant; at least as the "King's Sister" she received a decent income, places to live and a certain amount of independence. Henry wasn't likely to spend too much time worrying about her, so long as she didn't cause problems for him on the diplomatic front.

Defintely, and maybe she felt marrying someone else would cause her issues with him on the diplomatic front so she never pursued it. I think we do understimate her, but perhaps don't know the whole story about her well enough to correctly estimate her.

On the possibility of Anne marrying again... I think Henry probably did enough damage to her reputation to make it unlikely that a foreign prince would want her.

I agree about the lack of information about her, which I find rather intriguing. But she doesn't have a reputation for academic interests unlike Anne B., Katherine Parr or even Catherine of Aragon, so she probably wasn't an intellectual. I wonder what she spent her time doing...

I am not sure why there is a lack of information about Anne of Cleves, but I would say that she was a clever pragmatic lady. She accurately weighed pros/cons of her situation and made an optimal decision that would benefit her directly. Income, housing, and relative freedom to enjoy life were much better than lock-up in a monastery.

__________________"I never did mind about the little things"
Amanda, "Point of No Return"

No, I doubt she was intellectual. Needle work and sewing, embroidery were commonly done by upperclass women back then. Mary, Queen of Scots did alot of embroidery in her captivity, I think. I don't know that I've ever heard of any embroidery that Anne of Cleves did though. She wasn't the type to translate books in her spare time like Elizabeth I or Katharine Parr I think did. I've never heard of her doing that anyway.

Was there a particular need for Anne of Cleves to be intellectual as other wives were? As far as I can see, she was intelligent enough to salvage what she could from her not-so-perfect situation. Additionally, execution was not the only way to get rid of a wife. Various fatal accidents such as fall from horse/staircase or some serious disease with the help of poison would have helped Henry VIII to be free again.

__________________"I never did mind about the little things"
Amanda, "Point of No Return"

Well, as we can all see, being brainy wasn't an advantage for Anne B., and it almost got Katherine Parr to the scaffold. So I'm not slamming Anne at all, I think she did very well for herself considering the bad circumstances.

I'm just very curious about her. For example, now if a woman doesn't read, do volunteer work, exercise or have various hobbies, she might just like to watch TV or visit with friends, activities that wouldn't necessarily leave a trace. Given that the Tudors didn't have the TV, I'd just like to know how she spent her time.

Anne of Cleves seems to have had practical intelligence as opposed to intellectual intelligence. I'm not sure what she spent her time doing- embroidery, needlework maybe? I'm not sure. Catharine of Aragon was very religious, so was Katharine Parr (in very different ways). But to my knowledge Anne wasn't the type to read religious works or be very interested in religion (besides of which it could be a very dangerous interest in Henry VIII's England, and it almost got Katharine Parr in trouble).