I don’t know about the rest of you , but it has set my heart a-flutter to see all those protesters on the streets of Iran. There is a price to be paid for sure , but some things are worth that price. Nowaday a majority of Iranians are young people 30 years or less , and they are sick of being bullied by a “dictater” regime. Some cries that could be heard were “Death to the dictator! ” It is wonderful that women are out there mingling among the men and some are not even wearing scarves or other Muslim dress.

Millions all over the world by now have seen that picture of the Iranian girl, shot through the heart and laying bleeding on the street while her father and certain others cry out for her to open her eyes. That didn’t happen—she closed her eyes only to die. I hope Neda will not have died in vain; I know she will not be forgotten.

This a history making uprising and a good example to other Muslim citizens who feel oppressed. I hope there is a ripple effect.

I applaud CNN for bringing so much news in spite of the media blackout ordered by Iran. It hasn’t been easy for our reporters, but some Iranians from the US are speaking thier thoughts on air.

The question now seems to be how much the United States should get involved. I say we should support those young people in thier quest for freedom, and rally the rest of the world to join us. The demonstrators of Iran are brave and they are really crying out for our support—after all we are the champions free speech and an example of Democracy and the rights that come with it. Obama—will you say more ???

It’s hard for the US to gauge a good response—we have a bad history of meddling in Iranian affairs, and we wouldn’t be doing the protestors any favors by allowing the regime to paint them as puppets of Yankee imperialists.

That said, there’s no reason why the Obama administration shouldn’t or can’t ramp up the rhetorical pressure.

It’s hard for the US to gauge a good response—we have a bad history of meddling in Iranian affairs, and we wouldn’t be doing the protestors any favors by allowing the regime to paint them as puppets of Yankee imperialists.

That said, there’s no reason why the Obama administration shouldn’t or can’t ramp up the rhetorical pressure.

Should Obama speak up more emmphaticly ? You mention the US “meddling” in Iranian affairs. Freedom is everyone’s affair. Some probably think “getting involved” must mean Obama must DO something. We needn’t do anything but voice our opinion. The voice is a mighty weapon. Obama may feel in between a rock and a hard spot because he left so much of a pro-Islam impression when he spoke in Eygpt . He is afraid now that any speaking up for the angry malcontent young people on the streets getting beaten and jailed, will weaken his stance with the Supreme leaders of Islam .

Well, now is the time to show the world what our values are and how strong we will be when it comes to upholding those values. We should ask for an outpouring of other countries to voice thier support of human rights along with us ; a concerted effort to let the autocratic powers of humanity know they are on the black-list of humanity. How can anyone say it would be wrong of us to stand up for human rights ? Stand up and speak out ? I heard a recorded voice on tv today crying to a reporter on the streets of Iran “Help us ! Don’t leave us all alone !”

It’s hard for the US to gauge a good response—we have a bad history of meddling in Iranian affairs, and we wouldn’t be doing the protestors any favors by allowing the regime to paint them as puppets of Yankee imperialists.

That said, there’s no reason why the Obama administration shouldn’t or can’t ramp up the rhetorical pressure.

Should Obama speak up more emmphaticly ? You mention the US “meddling” in Iranian affairs. Freedom is everyone’s affair. Some probably think “getting involved” must mean Obama must DO something. We needn’t do anything but voice our opinion. The voice is a mighty weapon. Obama may feel in between a rock and a hard spot because he left so much of a pro-Islam impression when he spoke in Eygpt . He is afraid now that any speaking up for the angry malcontent young people on the streets getting beaten and jailed, will weaken his stance with the Supreme leaders of Islam .

Well, now is the time to show the world what our values are and how strong we will be when it comes to upholding those values. We should ask for an outpouring of other countries to voice thier support of human rights along with us ; a concerted effort to let the autocratic powers of humanity know they are on the black-list of humanity. How can anyone say it would be wrong of us to stand up for human rights ? Stand up and speak out ? I heard a recorded voice on tv today crying to a reporter on the streets of Iran “Help us ! Don’t leave us all alone !”

I didn’t say it was wrong to speak out about human rights. I said that our country has a history of meddling in Iranian affairs, which came back to haunt us during the Revolution and ever since. This is something that every moderately educated Iranian is aware of, and we need to be mindful that while they want and deserve support, we can’t be seen as directing events. That would only delegitimize the opposition. That’s just reality.

It’s hard for the US to gauge a good response—we have a bad history of meddling in Iranian affairs, and we wouldn’t be doing the protestors any favors by allowing the regime to paint them as puppets of Yankee imperialists.

That said, there’s no reason why the Obama administration shouldn’t or can’t ramp up the rhetorical pressure.

Should Obama speak up more emmphaticly ? You mention the US “meddling” in Iranian affairs. Freedom is everyone’s affair. Some probably think “getting involved” must mean Obama must DO something. We needn’t do anything but voice our opinion. The voice is a mighty weapon. Obama may feel in between a rock and a hard spot because he left so much of a pro-Islam impression when he spoke in Eygpt . He is afraid now that any speaking up for the angry malcontent young people on the streets getting beaten and jailed, will weaken his stance with the Supreme leaders of Islam .

Well, now is the time to show the world what our values are and how strong we will be when it comes to upholding those values. We should ask for an outpouring of other countries to voice thier support of human rights along with us ; a concerted effort to let the autocratic powers of humanity know they are on the black-list of humanity. How can anyone say it would be wrong of us to stand up for human rights ? Stand up and speak out ? I heard a recorded voice on tv today crying to a reporter on the streets of Iran “Help us ! Don’t leave us all alone !”

I didn’t say it was wrong to speak out about human rights. I said that our country has a history of meddling in Iranian affairs, which came back to haunt us during the Revolution and ever since. This is something that every moderately educated Iranian is aware of, and we need to be mindful that while they want and deserve support, we can’t be seen as directing events. That would only delegitimize the opposition. That’s just reality.

I am against any forcefull or militant action against the instigators of violent abuse on the streets, but we here in this country stand for something. Even those who gripe about us more likely than not admire and covet the freedom we enjoy in America. Not many seem to realize how much of a threat to that freedom the likes of tyranical regimes like most of the Islamic countries represent. The oppressed and suffering victoms of thier pious leaders-who are too often hypocrtical shams,are almost begging us to uphold thier struggle as rightious. I guess how you view the West ,( esp. USA) depends on who you are. I know a person; actualy a friend of a fellow in this country ,who says the “West” must show a reaction to the current abuses in his country or otherwise the people of Iran may lose faith in us. They look up to us as guardians of human rights . Believe me- we ( I like to think I’m not one of them) who go about our daily business in our peaceful and democratic haven in the USA have very little grasp as to the brutal atmosphere and everyday fear the “silenced” victoms; the citizens, of religious discipline live with.

I am against any forcefull or militant action against the instigators of violent abuse on the streets, but we here in this country stand for something. Even those who gripe about us more likely than not admire and covet the freedom we enjoy in America. Not many seem to realize how much of a threat to that freedom the likes of tyranical regimes like most of the Islamic countries represent. The oppressed and suffering victoms of thier pious leaders-who are too often hypocrtical shams,are almost begging us to uphold thier struggle as rightious. I guess how you view the West ,( esp. USA) depends on who you are. I know a person; actualy a friend of a fellow in this country ,who says the “West” must show a reaction to the current abuses in his country or otherwise the people of Iran may lose faith in us. They look up to us as guardians of human rights . Believe me- we ( I like to think I’m not one of them) who go about our daily business in our peaceful and democratic haven in the USA have very little grasp as to the brutal atmosphere and everyday fear the “silenced” victoms; the citizens, of religious discipline live with.

I don’t disagree with these sentiments; I’m merely pointing out the mitigating factors that the President must consider when addressing this issue. That doesn’t mean that “the West” as a whole needs to be mindful of such issues—our government specifically has a long history in Iran, so while our government does have a potentially constructive role to play, our leaders need to be mindful of the baggage we have.

You and I and other citizens, of course, are not under the same restraints.

Dee, considering the bizarre quasi-racist remarks you’ve made about Muslims, including calling me a Muslim after I made it clear that I’m an apostate…I can’t believe for one minute you really care even a little bit about the people suffering under Iran’s government. I seriously doubt you would have cared when Reza Pahlevi’s goons were imprisoning and murdering people, you just want a shot at another bunch of towel-heads.

Dee, considering the bizarre quasi-racist remarks you’ve made about Muslims, including calling me a Muslim after I made it clear that I’m an apostate…I can’t believe for one minute you really care even a little bit about the people suffering under Iran’s government. I seriously doubt you would have cared when Reza Pahlevi’s goons were imprisoning and murdering people, you just want a shot at another bunch of towel-heads.

[...] 3. If Iran gets a nuclear weapon, it won’t be for some special reason set forth in Koran. It will be for exactly the same reason that Israel has one, and France has one, and we have one, and the USSR has one: geopolitical power. Sure, the current regime in Iran is unpalatable to me, but so was the Bush regime. In the end, things are much more about political power than religious doctrine. Why do you think the protestants and catholics were killing each other in Northern Ireland? Not because they disagreed on communion or the necessity of bishops! it was because the Scots happened to be protestant and the Irish happened to be catholic, and so the English, to stir things up and checkmate the Irish at their northern edge, seized 6 counties from the Irish and gave the land to such Scots as would migrate to Northern Ireland. One of the few things my forebears did that make me ashamed of them, but nobodies perfect. The point is, it had nothing to do with religion as such.

That doesn’t mean that religion generally is not pernicious; it is. Nor does it mean that there are not lunatic christians who will kill doctors or lunatic muslims who will kill innocent civilians. But those numbers are very small, and we must not allow our society to be deformed out of a disproportionate fear of them.

I think if you study the history of the mideast broadly, and understand the colonialization of the area by nations that happened to be christian, you will understand the resentments of the area against the west in a broader context, and see that this is less a “clash of civilizations” than a rather predictable hashing out of the greivances of the colonized and their former overlords. Of course, had huge petroleum deposits not been underneath the middle eastern countries, we no doubt would have ignored them like sub-saharan african countries, and wouldn’t worry for a minute about them or their religion.

So my suggestion to you is that you start by reading about the democratically elected Iranian leader Mohammed Mosaddeq, who in 1949 promulgated a plan to nationalize Iran’s oil so that it would benefit the people of Iran rather than British petroleum interests. We brought about a coup which deposed Mossadeq, and installed the Shah, who ruled like a tyrant over Iran until he was deposed by the Mulahs. Now, we’re justifiably unhappy with the mulahs in Iran, but the fact is that had we not overthrown Mossaddeq and then crushed every secular opposition to the Shah as a communist front, the mulahs would never have gained power.

Once you start to see things in context of geopolitical developments, you will start to see the management of the small criminal element of religious lunatics is a problem we can deal with.

Of course, people like Pipes don’t want you to see that, because they want you to believe we must attack and effectively recolonize iran. It didn’t serve us well in 1953, and it won’t serve us well now, but Pipes doesnt’ want you to think about that.

Iranians authorites claim western agents shot Neda to make her a martyr for their cause. Neda was a sacrificial lamb for the pro-western rioters.

Well that settles it. If the Iranian authority says it (while attempting to squelch a revolution) then it must be true.

rays - 04 January 2010 12:24 PM

As far as majority of people in Iran are concerned Neda Sultan died in vain. They dont care what outsiders think.

Using the word “majority” requires statistical data. Otherwise you’re speaking for an entire country, which you have no right to do.

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When two men of science disagree, they do not invoke the secular arm; they wait for further evidence to decide the issue, because, as men of science, they know that neither is infallible. But when two theologians differ, since there is no criteria to which either can appeal, there is nothing for it but mutual hatred and an open or covert appeal to force.

No, I don’t. But I want to use your knowledge and talent to start something significant here.

No, I am not interested in helping the atheists to organize themselves. My idea of promoting the atheist and secular view is to make youtube video clips of Pat Condell the mandatory course in critical thinking.

Here is what I want to happen. Let’s start working on a political movement that can compete with the conservative, liberal and libertarian ideas, and with whatever else counts today in the political discourse. I am sick and tired of hearing slogans about democracy for instance. To me the essence of democracy are the liberties we enjoy, our civil rights, freedom of press, the economic advancement of the nation as a whole, functioning health care system, public transportation, social security. I want the public to see that under the slogans of free elections here in the United States we managed to build an elaborate feudal system corrupt to the core where no real change can happen. The revolution is long overdue and must be started with some truly revolutionary ideas. I also want the public to see that democracy of “majority rules” is a big joke and will never work as long as it is played along the deep divisions from the very local to the national level. In every elections I witnessed people go to vote divided along different economic and social interests. It’s predictable that those with children will vote for the increased school budget while those without will vote against it. One of the most stupid things to me is how we treat the real estate market. The very idea that your home is your investment is ultimately responsible for the whole financial crisis we go through and all we can think about now is when the house prices finally will start going up. If you ask me I think that we would be much happier and economically healthier society if the home prices were low and stayed low.