Come on man, you can't really believe this! Do you really think that Charlie has played up to his full potential? Do you really think that he was out for a season because of double ankle injuries he sustained while sleeping? Do you think that Larry is the first coach not to play the guy? No one expects Charlie to be Rasheed Wallace, but I do expect him to hold himself accountable for his performance, and I expect him to take his job seriously. I don't care at all about his boxing workouts, his time in the sauna, or any of that crap. I do care that after 8 years in the NBA, he still grabs dudes from behind and gives them the and1 nearly every time he plays. That's nonsense. I also care that a 6'11" power forward has never, ever averaged 1 block a game.

As much as I would like to think that 19 year old millionaire athletes are all focused, driven professionals, I know that's not true. 19 year old kids like Andre Drummond or that kid that works at the coffee shop on the corner are still figuring life out, and look to others for guidance. Charlie has made himself Drummond's mentor (check his twitter feed, he talks about it), and I'm not comfortable with that.

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Come on man...you can just hate the dude and I'm fine with that (cause I hate Stuckey), but you can't really think you should be getting all-star play from a career 12ppg/5rpg player. Out of his entire career, he's had only ONE season where he's avg'd considerably more than 12ppg....ONE. So you wan to take that one season and extrapolate that out to him underachieving? No, sir.

The only time his numbers have dipped below what he's averaged in his entire career is A) last season when he only played 13 GAMES ...and B) THIS season when his minutes have been noticeably reduced.

When his minutes are consistent (22 to 25mins), he's routinely at around 12ppg/5rpg. He's been that way all but ONE year ('08-'09) when he avg' 16ppg. The facts support my position. He's been consistently the same with the exception of one up year and one injury filled year. His 3pt % is on par with all his other years in the NBA save the injury season (last year). So, I understand you guys hating the guy, but just like Blazer fans and Raymond Felton, he's come here and been the same guy he's always been. He was on par for his career numbers his first year here then got injured last year and then had his minutes reduced this year and still shot on par for 3. He is who we thought he was.

Joe Dumars is to blame for throwing over $8M per at 12ppg/5rpg. It's not on 12ppg/5rpg to instantly become 18ppg/9rpg because Joe Dumars decided to throw $8M in that direction.

...and last time I checked, Drummond isn't heading head first into the rookie delinquent rabbit hole and having his career destroyed as we speak. As a matter of fact, he's exceeded EVERYONE's expectations ...and that after playing a season WITH CV. So, well done on that fantasy. I love how just being in the room with CV has become tantamount to being led to your doom by the pied piper.

So yeah, I blame Joe.
...But when I read a quote from Turd regarding picking up his player option that says: “It’s obvious what I’m going to do, Would you let that money go?” I want to lock him in a Sauna and throw away the key.
As a fan, I don't want to be reminded about how overpaid he is. He should have went with some BS comment like: "I really appreciate the support I've had in Detroit and I want to do everything I can in my final year to do right by the fans. We gotta turn this thing around!"
Not only does Charlie suck. His PR people suck too!

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For my money, CV has come here and been the same player he's been his entire career (with the exception of the season Joe D retroactively paid him for). So, unless he comes here plays the same minutes and puts up half the numbers, he DID earn his money. Joe D was a fool for offering as much as he did.

Charlie Villaueva is a clown. He's a "C" student. He's the guy who sits in the back of the class and cracks jokes while you're trying to listen and learn. Charlie Villanueva has no "game face". He's one of the least intense professional athletes that I've ever seen.

If CV got into the 'WayBack Machine' machine and traveled back to the 1990 Pistons, he'd get his ass kicked 5 minutes into his first practice. Can you imagine CV clowning around in practice when Zeke or Laimbeer are trying to perfect one of Chuck-D's new plays? Even John Salley looked more "professional" than Charlie. (...John freaking Salley!)

CV is from UConn.
19-year-old Andre Drummond is from UConn.
It's natural that Charlie would take young 'Dre under his wing. ...show him the ropes. ...show him how to carry himself. ...show him how to be a pro. - THIS SCARES THE (expletive) OUT OF ME!!!

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I'm amazed at how much power you guys have assigned to this guy. Again..this isn't grade school. The "class clown" isn't keeping me from learning. If anything, it's more like a college course where all the adults get to go sit on the other side of the auditorium and leave the "class clown" a whole lot of rows to himself. Our players are not impressionable toddlers who need the right influences and discipline. They don't need chores to learn responsibility or need to ask permission for cookies or for ice cream money....and for folks who don't spend any time in the locker room or in practice or film session, everyone seems to have a lot of info on what kind of person/professional he is. I hate Stuckey's game, I'm not a fan of Frank's coaching, I even have serious doubts about Dumars' decision making, but I'm not in a position to discuss what kind of people they are.

I'm amazed at how much power you guys have assigned to this guy. Again..this isn't grade school. The "class clown" isn't keeping me from learning. If anything, it's more like a college course where all the adults get to go sit on the other side of the auditorium and leave the "class clown" a whole lot of rows to himself. Our players are not impressionable toddlers who need the right influences and discipline. They don't need chores to learn responsibility or need to ask permission for cookies or for ice cream money....and for folks who don't spend any time in the locker room or in practice or film session, everyone seems to have a lot of info on what kind of person/professional he is. I hate Stuckey's game, I'm not a fan of Frank's coaching, I even have serious doubts about Dumars' decision making, but I'm not in a position to discuss what kind of people they are.

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Andre Drummond should be a freshmen at UConn THIS year.
...By NBA terms - the dude is mos-def an impressionable toddler.

I never said that Charlie is a bad person and I honestly don't care if he's a bad person. All I care about is how he reps my favorite team. ...my tribe. The "laundry" that I've rooted for relentlessly since I was 8 years old watching games on a black and white TV on Channel 50.

The last time (only time) I've ever been in the Piston locker room was back around 1993 when a friend and myself got off a luxury suite elevator on the wrong "1st" floor at the Palace and pretty much walked right into the Piston locker room after halftime (We got kicked out by Brendon Malone in less than 10 seconds but being in that sanctuary for 10 seconds was pretty sweet man!). The only thing that I care about is what I see on the court. ...and what I see is our franchise player looking up to a dude that doesn't play defense, doesn't hustle, doesn't play smart and doesn't seem to be interested in getting better or helping his team get better. Charlie is a flat tire!

I've heard you talk about "Piston DNA" on your podcast.
Do you honestly believe that freaking Charlie Villanueva has one single strand of Piston DNA in him?

If it were up to me, I'd pay the guy to go home and play out his contract, shooting threes in his own driveway.

I've heard you talk about "Piston DNA" on your podcast.
Do you honestly believe that freaking Charlie Villanueva has one single strand of Piston DNA in him?

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Yep.

Part of that DNA is fearlessness. For what it's worth, CV and Bynum have been the only guys save Knight on occasion that have been willing to hit back when other teams are manhandling us physically. CV will go out and not just back down and I like that in a player.

I don't buy this whole "looking up to" business with professional athletes and never will. I remember being 19 and knowing I was WAY past looking up to dudes and needing to follow anyone and I'm no where near a professional athlete...I just had regular jobs and sh*t. I'm not giving anyone that out.

We disagree on the guy and that's fine with me. I don't agree that he doesn't hustle. He's not a good defender, but who on this roster outside of Dummond is? Hell, he's got a whole lot of company in that regard. I'm not going to blame a guy who gets 16mpg for our troubles when you have guys like Maxiell & Singler starting and routinely providing little else than imaginary toughness & some kind of perceived basketball smarts just from having attended Duke. Again, this goes back to being annoyed at how much he's making. That's on Joe. Being mad at CV for a perceived lack of desire to get better is again, being mad at 12ppg/5rpg for not becoming 18ppg/9rpg. Most NBA players are at their talent peak by the time they reach the NBA...that's how they got there in the 1st place. Very few players become marginally better than they were when they entered the league. Some improve certain aspects of their game to a certain degree, but not to the tune of becoming a totally different player with an all new amazing skillset that no one saw coming. Again...that's on Joe. If you're paying for what you think might happen in the future instead of offering a price consistent with what you're getting and negotiating from there, you're not a very smart purchaser. At that point, you're not allowed to be pissed at the toaster for not loading itself with tasty slices of bread.

I'd rather have the guy finish out his deal here than having Joe throw good money after bad and pay for two guys and only get one when I know what this guy is capable of.

Part of that DNA is fearlessness. For what it's worth, CV and Bynum have been the only guys save Knight on occasion that have been willing to hit back when other teams are manhandling us physically. CV will go out and not just back down and I like that in a player.

Here's a classic Charlie Defensive Move:

He pulls crap like that all the time. That's not fearless, it's just cheap.

This is fearless:

I don't buy this whole "looking up to" business with professional athletes and never will. I remember being 19 and knowing I was WAY past looking up to dudes and needing to follow anyone and I'm no where near a professional athlete...I just had regular jobs and sh*t. I'm not giving anyone that out.

You were probably an exceptional 19 year old. I'm 42 and I still look up to, and am influenced by people.

You're probably right, I am a true Charlie Hater. It's not because of his numbers though. And it's not really because of his money. It's because he seems to constantly half-ass it on the court, and doesn't seem to care. Drives me nuts to watch him stare down a 6'3" guard that he shoots over when the Pistons are losing by 25. I can't stand watching him get beat on a switch, thinking to myself, "don't commit a weak foul and give up another point on this play" as I watch him commit a weak foul and give up another point on the play. I hate that he does boxing workouts, and is crappy at boxing out for rebounds. I hate that he tweets pictures of his UConn championship ring and his Bentley, while taking a year off from the Pistons because he hurt both of his ankles while sleeping. I hate that he can't make the Dominican Olympic Team, and instead of being motivated to try harder, he just denies that he ever tried out.

Wait...so we're comparing CV to Ben Wallace? Really? If that's the marker then all 15 guys on this roster are a cancer and need to be waived.

I'm willing to give you your gripes about his D, but if you took out CV...75% of that applies to everyone on this roster except Drummond. But, yeah...his tweets are irrelevant to me. Lastly, I tend to believe he actually WAS injured rather than he managed to dupe an entire NBA franchise of personnel and medical staff. I'm just sayin...

I'm cool with CV being on some people's list. Hell, I'm that way about Stuckey. It's just my view on it for a guy who's only been playing about 16 mins a night. We COULD be paying Darko right now....lol. Besides, if we've acquired the kind of talent where we're contending and a guy like CV is still only getting 16 minutes a night to hit a couple threes and give some guys a rest...that means we're doing quite well. I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it.

Wait...so we're comparing CV to Ben Wallace? Really? If that's the marker then all 15 guys on this roster are a cancer and need to be waived.

I agree with that. But forget comparing him to Ben Wallace, let's compare him to Former Piston At The End Of His Career Cliff Robinson. I would still take 38 year old Cliff over current Charlie. Just saying.

I'm willing to give you your gripes about his D, but if you took out CV...75% of that applies to everyone on this roster except Drummond. But, yeah...his tweets are irrelevant to me. Lastly, I tend to believe he actually WAS injured rather than he managed to dupe an entire NBA franchise of personnel and medical staff. I'm just sayin...

I don't think he duped an entire NBA franchise, I think the franchise came up with a lame excuse about why their big free agent signing wasn't playing. Of course, I don't really know that, but I've never, ever, heard of anyone breaking both of their ankles when they were asleep. I guess it could happen.

I'm cool with CV being on some people's list. Hell, I'm that way about Stuckey. It's just my view on it for a guy who's only been playing about 16 mins a night. We COULD be paying Darko right now....lol. Besides, if we've acquired the kind of talent where we're contending and a guy like CV is still only getting 16 minutes a night to hit a couple threes and give some guys a rest...that means we're doing quite well. I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it.

I won't lose sleep over it either. Charlie is my Stuckey... except he never seems to have big games, which Rod does from time to time. Or, when Charlie does, it's at the very end of the season and his hot streak drops us from the 5th pick to the 10th.

CV should be moved and Stuckey should carry his luggage along with his own.
I'm on the side that attitude does affect team chemistry.
CV does not have a good attitude, and it affects others.
He's the Bobby Higginson of these Pistons and he needs to go...along with Stuckey.

CV should be moved and Stuckey should carry his luggage along with his own.
I'm on the side that attitude does affect team chemistry.
CV does not have a good attitude, and it affects others.
He's the Bobby Higginson of these Pistons and he needs to go...along with Stuckey.

Let's asusme that we pick in the top 10 again this year, and that dude ends up starting along with Drummond, Moose and Knight next year. Was there every a team that started 4 guys who were top 10 picks in 4 consecutive drafts I wonder?

Let's asusme that we pick in the top 10 again this year, and that dude ends up starting along with Drummond, Moose and Knight next year. Was there every a team that started 4 guys who were top 10 picks in 4 consecutive drafts I wonder?

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I don't know but as bad as things look right now, with another top pick, the Pistons would actually be in a good situation, especially if the pick can play at all.

My only problem with Charlie V (besides his slow feet, mugging, inability to hit a free throw, and love affair with the 3 point line) is that he simply refuses to put arc on his shot. Why can't he just stroke it a little higher? Seems like he'd go from being a good shooter to a really good shooter. Oh well. In my mind, he's serving out his contract and will be gone before we have anything better doing. Irrelevant in the grand scheme of our march to our next Championship.

My only problem with Charlie V (besides his slow feet, mugging, inability to hit a free throw, and love affair with the 3 point line) is that he simply refuses to put arc on his shot. Why can't he just stroke it a little higher? Seems like he'd go from being a good shooter to a really good shooter. Oh well. In my mind, he's serving out his contract and will be gone before we have anything better doing. Irrelevant in the grand scheme of our march to our next Championship.

In 2017, we will barely even mention him on here.

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Laimbeer never put any arc on his shot either. Charlie has a quick release which is a huge advantage. He has become a helpful player for this team. Look, he went from a guy who got injured while sleeping, to a guy who was so bad he got cut from the D.R. team, to a guy who got some bad workout advice and spent the offseason in a Sauna, to a permanent benchwarmer. to a guy that can come in and hit a few 3's. Now, that's progress.

I'd also like Bynum back.

And I don't see how Singler keeps his starting job. I don't think he ever gets on a roll. I always look at the post game grades at piston powered and Singler usually gets a passing grade and some comments like...he showed some energy....but he misses a ton of open shots and he isn't being impactful on defense.

And I don't see how Singler keeps his starting job. I don't think he ever gets on a roll. I always look at the post game grades at piston powered and Singler usually gets a passing grade and some comments like...he showed some energy....but he misses a ton of open shots and he isn't being impactful on defense.

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Singler is simply playing way too many minutes right now. I like him as a 20-minute glue guy where he shoots 45% FG. Lately, he has been playing 35 minutes, sometimes 40+ minutes. In the Portland game for example, he played 40 minutes, shot 2-for-10 with 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, and 0 blocked shots. That's almost impossible to play that many minutes and not accidentally get a stat.

I'm cool with CV being on some people's list. Hell, I'm that way about Stuckey. It's just my view on it for a guy who's only been playing about 16 mins a night. We COULD be paying Darko right now....lol. Besides, if we've acquired the kind of talent where we're contending and a guy like CV is still only getting 16 minutes a night to hit a couple threes and give some guys a rest...that means we're doing quite well. I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it.

Yes, CV is only getting 16 minutes per game. Do you honestly think that he's earned more time?
Is Charlie getting screwed out of playing time by the coaching staff?
IMO, those might be 16 of the most un-earned minutes in the NBA.

I understand that JMax hasn't done much (anything) to be earning his minutes but I look at him as a "lesser of two evils" kinda dude. Jonas has pretty much punted the PF spot this year but I'd rather watch him try to play his way through a year-long shooting slump than watch Charlie take 10 minutes to walk back to bench after getting yanked by coach Doogie Howser for blowing yet another defensive assignment. At least we've actually seen some instances in Jerebko's & Maxiell's careers where they've s played some defense. ...and at least those guys aren't with Charlie among the league leaders in "buffoonery" (adjusted per 36 minutes).

The truth is that none of these guys should be getting much run on a NBA roster.
A team can't spend $18 million bucks and 3 roster spots on trio like this and expect to turn the corner on a re-build.
...and yes, you're right. That's on Joe.

Singler is simply playing way too many minutes right now. I like him as a 20-minute glue guy where he shoots 45% FG. Lately, he has been playing 35 minutes, sometimes 40+ minutes. In the Portland game for example, he played 40 minutes, shot 2-for-10 with 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, and 0 blocked shots. That's almost impossible to play that many minutes and not accidentally get a stat.

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Agreed he's playing to many mins and should come off the bench if this team was any good... but JJ is the only other option (well should be the only.... ugg with stuckey at the 3) right now and I don't think he's returned to form yet, will he ever?

I think maybe we should do the Hoosiers thing and play short handed the rest the year...

Agreed he's playing to many mins and should come off the bench if this team was any good... but JJ is the only other option (well should be the only.... ugg with stuckey at the 3) right now and I don't think he's returned to form yet, will he ever?

I think maybe we should do the Hoosiers thing and play short handed the rest the year...

. He has become a helpful player for this team. Look, he went from a guy who got injured while sleeping, to a guy who was so bad he got cut from the D.R. team, to a guy who got some bad workout advice and spent the offseason in a Sauna, to a permanent benchwarmer. to a guy that can come in and hit a few 3's. Now, that's progress.

I never really looked at it that way. Way to go, Charlie!

I'd also like Bynum back.

Favorite current Piston who is playing. I welcome Teen Wolf back with open arms.

And I don't see how Singler keeps his starting job. I don't think he ever gets on a roll. I always look at the post game grades at piston powered and Singler usually gets a passing grade and some comments like...he showed some energy....but he misses a ton of open shots and he isn't being impactful on defense.

Since the fundamental mission of the Pistons is to be impactful, I don't see how we can make Singler a part of the rebuild.

Yes, CV is only getting 16 minutes per game. Do you honestly think that he's earned more time?
Is Charlie getting screwed out of playing time by the coaching staff?
IMO, those might be 16 of the most un-earned minutes in the NBA.

I understand that JMax hasn't done much (anything) to be earning his minutes but I look at him as a "lesser of two evils" kinda dude. Jonas has pretty much punted the PF spot this year but I'd rather watch him try to play his way through a year-long shooting slump than watch Charlie take 10 minutes to walk back to bench after getting yanked by coach Doogie Howser for blowing yet another defensive assignment. At least we've actually seen some instances in Jerebko's & Maxiell's careers where they've s played some defense. ...and at least those guys aren't with Charlie among the league leaders in "buffoonery" (adjusted per 36 minutes).

The truth is that none of these guys should be getting much run on a NBA roster.
A team can't spend $18 million bucks and 3 roster spots on trio like this and expect to turn the corner on a re-build.
...and yes, you're right. That's on Joe.

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I don't know that he's earned 30 mins a night and I definitely don't think he's being screwed, but I always look at a guy's career numbers. For CV's career numbers, he's been pretty much the same guy he's always been. No better, no worse. I can't really be mad at him for being who he is. But we are in 100% agreement. To have that much money tied up in 3 guys with those kind of numbers is insanity and in no way conducive to winning. But, if he was getting his career avg of 22 to 25 mins, I wouldn't be upset with that, considering that being paid the same as Stuckey, he's at least been efficient shooting the 3 and he's put up some decent rebounding efforts. But, in no way do I view him as a piece we can't live without. I'm just zen with the kind of player he is.

I think the only reason I have more of a gripe with Maxiell is because he's starting. That means we come out of the gate at a disadvantage and it's hard to overcome that kind of handicap to start EVERY game. I do agree that CV is not a good defender, but he's got a lot of company there and I'd have more respect for him getting yanked if the same (getting yanked for missing assignments) were true for Stuckey, Singler, or Maxiell (who recently gave up 1000 pts to LaMarcus Aldridge). Honestly, I think the more minutes JJ gets, the better he becomes, but Frank has enacted the very definition of losing your starting spot to injury with regards to Jerebko and THAT, IMO, is not fair.

This off-season will be huge and not in the cliched sense of the phrase...we really HAVE to make some decisions about whether or not we are serious about improving or whether or not Joe is going to pull another 82 game 'Wait N See.' It will also be very telling with regards to how long Gores is going to wait through this running in place pattern we seem to be stuck in.

CV should be moved and Stuckey should carry his luggage along with his own.
I'm on the side that attitude does affect team chemistry.
CV does not have a good attitude, and it affects others.
He's the Bobby Higginson of these Pistons and he needs to go...along with Stuckey.

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Ha ha...well done!

It doesn't really bother me...every team needs a guy with a bad attitude.

Bad Boys had Rodman/Laimbeer
2004 had Rasheed

This team is nowhere near ready to compete, but I don't care if every guy on the roster has a good attitude. Blazer fans languish in mediocrity because they always get all worked up about having guys they like on the team. They'd almost rather have a team that loses, but is full of guys that are really nice and they all like. Everyone out here HATES Raymond Felton, but he's playing well in NY and if they had kept him AND Lillard, they'd be way better off, but mgmt out here is very responsive to the fanbase. They all hated him cause he was kind of a d*ck and the Blazers made sure he was gone after one lockout shortened season even though his numbers weren't much different than his career stats. Nevertheless, let Blazer fans tell it, they lost EVERY game because of Raymond Felton.

Every team needs a jerk.

...and no....CV IS IN NO WAY COMPARABLE TO LAIMBEER, RODMAN, OR SHEED. I'm just making the point.