Johnson, Betty Schafer

ORAL HISTORY OF BETTY SCHAFER JOHNSON
Interviewed by Don Hunnicutt
Filmed by BBB Communications, LLC.
November 5, 2012
MR. HUNNICUTT: This interview is for the Center of Oak Ridge Oral History. The date is November 5, 2012. I am Don Hunnicutt in the home of Mrs. Betty Schafer Johnson, 121 Georgia Avenue, Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Please state your name, your maiden name, and your place of birth.
MRS. JOHNSON: Betty Schafer-Johnson, Duluth, Minnesota.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was the date of your birth?
MRS. JOHNSON: 03/13/27.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was your father’s name?
MRS. JOHNSON: Frederick Schafer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And do you recall where he was born and the date?
MRS. JOHNSON: The date was 11/27/1902, and it was Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Your mother’s name, maiden name, and place of birth?
MRS. JOHNSON: Fern Lowe in Duluth, Minnesota.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the date?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, March 29, ’07.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about your father? How far did he go in school, and what was his education background?
MRS. JOHNSON: He went to—I can’t exactly remember the college. He went to college in Duluth, and then he was hired by Remington Arms Company, and the job was in Denver, Colorado, and he moved our family from Duluth to Denver. And a scout for the Manhattan Project, but anyway the scouts went to different big companies to hire people, and they went to Remington Arms in Denver and hired my father from there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about your mother? What was her school history?
MRS. JOHNSON: She did not graduate high school. I think she went thru 10th grade in Duluth, Minnesota.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you have any sisters and brothers?
MRS. JOHNSON: Two brothers.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What were their names?
MRS. JOHNSON: Fred Schafer and Don Schafer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When your father was working in Denver, Colorado, at the Remington Arms Company, you said that there were some scouts. Do you mean people who came from Oak Ridge looking for employees?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And they contacted him for employment in Oak Ridge?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the type of job they interviewed him for?
MRS. JOHNSON: Process engineer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was your school background, Betty?
MRS. JOHNSON: I went to junior high in Duluth, Minnesota, and just got to Denver. I was already in the 10th grade, and I went to school all year round and graduated when I was 16 from East High in Denver, Colorado.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What year was that?
MRS. JOHNSON: In 1943. We moved from Denver in ’43, and I had already graduated.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you get from—how did the family get from Denver to Oak Ridge when they came here?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, my dad came right from Denver, but our family went by way of Duluth, Minnesota, and stayed there a couple months while my dad was here living in the Alexander.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The Alexander Hotel, or the Guest House it was called in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: The Guest House, right. He stayed there for a couple months until he got a house up on Georgia Avenue, and that was by the first of the year.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me a little bit about when you went to school before coming to Oak Ridge. What was the dress for a girl in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: No slacks at all. Girls didn’t wear anything but skirts or dresses, but we just weren’t into slacks in those days.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you like school?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, I loved it. That’s why I graduated so young because I went summer and fall and winter and spring until I got out. When I moved to Denver, of course, I had to make new friends, and didn’t have anybody to run around with for a while, so school was my outlet. In Denver, while I was in high school, I went to the telephone company and trained as an operator, and while I was doing that, because I wanted to work all the time, I also went to business college and became a secretary. And, so when I came to Oak Ridge, that’s what I signed up for at the plant.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So your father came to Oak Ridge to get established, and then the rest of the family came when?
MRS. JOHNSON: I don’t remember if it was January.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how the rest of the family arrived in Oak Ridge?
MRS. JOHNSON: We were all together in Duluth and traveled from there to Oak Ridge.
MR. HUNNICUTT: By car?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So you just said earlier that you lived in a house on Georgia Avenue. What was the address?
MRS. JOHNSON: 116.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of house was that?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was a C house.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you refer to C house, what does that mean?
MRS. JOHNSON: Three bedroom, one bath, and the family house, that house is still in the family as of today.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of heat did you have in the C house?
MRS. JOHNSON: We had coal. They delivered it in buckets to a coal bin we had in the house and a furnace that you had to put the coal in.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how often they delivered the coal to the house?
MRS. JOHNSON: It seems to me it was once a week, but that sounds quite often, but the coals bins weren’t that big in the house. They had an exit door that was just for the coal, and they would come and deliver it to this little door into a coal bin, as they called it, and I don’t remember how big they were, but about half or less that size of a bathroom.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall, when you said delivered, did they carry it by buckets or was there a shoot that went into the --
MRS. JOHNSON: Some of them had shoots, and some didn’t have an access. They would have to do buckets because it depends on what position the house was in and if they could get to it easy enough.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall if the heat was adequate? Was the house warm in the wintertime?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, as far as I can remember, we were never cold.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So there were two brothers, and you, and your mother and father in the C house. Did the two brothers share a bedroom, and you had your own bedroom?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right and then one brother went to the Air Force, my older brother, and went to Enid, Oklahoma, to college for the Air Force.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did any of your brothers—they were beyond school age when they came here?
MRS. JOHNSON: No. My younger brother was in high school here and graduated from Oak Ridge High.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall where the high school was located?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right above Jackson Square.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now when you came to Oak Ridge did you go to work right off, or did you look for work, or how did that pan out for you?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, I was underage, and I lied and said I was 18, and I got on at the plant as a secretary and a recorder. (Laughter) I took the readings on some of the cubicles in the Y-12 plant, and that was shift work too, which I didn’t like.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, back up just a little bit and tell me how you got the job. Where did you go to apply for work?
MRS. JOHNSON: I went to the building that was called the Castle on the Hill. That had to have been Monsanto, because it was about four different companies there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you walk to the place that you applied for work?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, no my dad drove me for the interview.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Can you remember what the interview was like?
MRS. JOHNSON: It, it was too easy I thought. If I could get by with that and lie about my age, my dad was already working there, and so they had my records with his, and yet they let me get a job there underage. I was very surprised.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And what type of job was this?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was a secretarial job.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And at what plant did you work?
MRS. JOHNSON: At Y-12.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall who you were a secretary for?
MRS. JOHNSON: I think his name was—he’s dead now—Pickett. I can’t think of his first name.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, when you first went to work, as a secretary at Y-12, what was that experience like?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, it was a great experience because sometimes when they needed somebody someplace else they would get from anywhere in the plant if they could use them some way, and they had me at one time go inside the track and go up on the second floor where they had these great big, they looked like round refrigerators or freezers, and they had this, like hot air, or like hot ice, something coming out of these.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Like dry ice?
MRS. JOHNSON: Dry ice, right, and I had to check the meter readings on those, and that was just a short while because a girl was sick, and I took her place there. But, then after working for Mr. Pickett, I went up to work for the process engineers, and there was about five of them in that office, and I was the only secretary, and they would go out in the field and make these reports by hand and then bring back all these pages, and I had to type them up and file them, and I was really bored because I was an active person, so I would help anybody around that needed some work, and I finally told my boss, “Is there anything else I could do”, while I was waiting for the engineers to come in with their reports. And so, I kept the records for the people that worked in the stores in that 9201-4 building where I worked, and so that is how I was working at the last.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you were typing the information did you have to use carbon paper?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That seemed to be the trend in those days.
MRS. JOHNSON: I think we did. Yeah, it was just what you would expect if you were working anywhere, and I never thought at the time about that being a form that they could copy on that copy paper.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was the information classified?
MRS. JOHNSON: Some of it was but --
MR. HUNNICUTT: But you had no idea what it all meant?
MRS. JOHNSON: I did not know what was and what wasn’t. It wasn’t printed as such, but I knew we were not allowed to tell what we were doing, any of it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you get back and forth to work when you started working?
MRS. JOHNSON: In a carpool.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you mother work --
MRS. JOHNSON: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- when the family came?
MRS. JOHNSON: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall your father ever saying anything about what he did at the plant?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I don’t think he ever told us exactly what he was doing.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So security was pretty high in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, gosh yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about the city being fenced in?
MRS. JOHNSON: I liked it because it was so safe. You know you hear these stories about the wars and fighting and everything, and I thought well we were in the safest place there was, and you just felt safe because you’d never see anybody drunk or loitering, anything like that. It was peaceful, and that doesn’t sound right for Oak Ridge, but it was to me, peaceful.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was there a lot of people here in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about the boardwalks? Do you remember the boardwalks?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, I had to usually wear boots of some kind, and the first day in Oak Ridge, my mother and I decided we were going to go down and see the Downtown area, which was Jackson Square, and so we put our heels on. You know we dressed up to go shopping and had gloves on and hats. Went Downtown, and we were the only ones dressed up at Jackson Square. We ended up walking back home, taking off the hat and gloves, and put on low shoes, and walked down the sidewalk then to Jackson Square.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the mud that was around the city in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes, awful. When I went to work I had to ride a cattle car. It was a trailer type vehicle that was pulled by a truck, and we had to sit on the sides of the car. There wasn’t seats like normally in a bus, and they called it a cattle car, but why they had benches all along the sides, I don’t know, but we’d wear our boots and carry our nice shoes there, and then we’d have to leave our boots in our locker and our coat and then put on our regular shoes to work.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you were riding the cattle cars, if it was raining, did you get wet?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes, and you’d walk in that mud and slip and slide and it was real uncomfortable.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall what your parents had to say about Oak Ridge after they had been here for a little while? Did your mother like being here?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, she would have liked to have been back up in Duluth with my grandmother, her sister and brothers, but where your husband goes, you go, and that’s the way it was in those days, and she learned to like it because we had some very good neighbors, and, of course, the neighbors would get together and play bridge and have lots of fun together, have parties.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how severe the winters were here in Oak Ridge in those early days?
MRS. JOHNSON: They were really tough. In fact, I had my skis from up in Duluth and my skates, and I went ahead and skied, out there on Georgia Avenue, the houses they had hills, and I wore my skis a couple of times back in the backyard and tried them out on the street, but I wasn’t brave enough to do enough on the street, but all the kids would get out on the street with their sleds and we had lots of snow.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall where your mother did her grocery shopping?
MRS. JOHNSON: Down at Jackson Square at that grocery store there. Community --
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember what the name?
MRS. JOHNSON: Community --
MR. HUNNICUTT: Community Store?
MRS. JOHNSON: Store, and at one time meat was so scarce that there was a grocery store up here on the hill where there was a little shopping center, we’d go out there and stand in line and get meat.
MR. HUNNICUTT: At the Outer Drive stores?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, and I dated a boy for a while there, and he worked up there at that store, so we always got choice meats. (Laughter) Talk about doing the wrong thing, but we enjoyed it and getting that special cuts of meat.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have ration stamps?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did that work?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, we had to go stand in line for cigarettes for one thing, and if you wanted nylon hose, you had to stand in line for that too. There was a lot of things— sugar was rationed, and I had forgotten that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So, where did you get the ration stamps?
MRS. JOHNSON: Must have went to City Hall or something. I don’t exactly remember.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Were you allotted so many stamps per family members?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, how big your family was.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about door-to-door salesmen?
MRS. JOHNSON: We didn’t have any. They weren’t allowed in the city.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about milk delivery?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, we had milk delivered. Norris Creamery delivered milk right to the door.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did the milk come and what type of container?
MRS. JOHNSON: I don’t remember whether it was bottles or cardboard cartons, but when we bought them at the store, we bought the cardboard cartons because I remember having a little square plastic thing that we’d slide our container in, and it had a handle on it, and that was really special to have that to use for your milk.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they just sit the milk on the back porch or the front porch?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right. The back porch, that’s where they’d put it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you pay the milkman?
MRS. JOHNSON: I’m trying to remember that. I think we got a bill.
MR. HUNNICUTT: He just wrote a bill, and you paid it?
MRS. JOHNSON: It wasn’t the most important thing to me at that time. I was just an older teenager, you know.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well now, you were 16 or 17.
MRS. JOHNSON: When we moved here, 17 because I had already graduated.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You spoke about dating a boy at the Outer Drive stores. Where did you go on dates?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, we went to the skating rink most of the time. It was a skating rink in the west end of town, and it was the place for all young people to go, and we’d go there skating just about every night if we could, and, of course, my dad would have to drive me there, and a lot of times he and my mother would stay there and watch me skating all night and then bring me home even though I was that old.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you ever use the bus system in town very much?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, tell me about that.
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, they had horses out at a horse stables out here at the west end of town, and I would go out there and ride the horses, and I had to take a bus there and a bus home, and it was pretty convenient.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they charge you to ride the horses?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes. It wasn’t free, and it was in the gates, you know.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Within the city?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember how much you made per week when you worked?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, gosh, I don’t have any idea.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, was it enough money for you to have a nice kind of free time?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes. I was very happy with the pay. Of course, my dad wasn’t happy. He wanted me to go on to college at UT [University of Tennessee], and I fought it. I said, “No, I’ve had enough schooling now. I want to have some fun.”
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall some other places you went on dates?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, we’d go to the cafeterias and eat, believe it or not, and then I would go down to the tennis courts to the dances, and that brick building that’s there that is now—it’s across from the Alexander—I can’t think what it’s called now,
but it was a recreation hall, and we’d have dances there, and kids after high school would just go there and join, and I was young enough I went there a lot, even though I was working because there was a lot of others that was working too, and the Wildcat Den when that was down in Jackson Square up above the bowling alley, was the Wildcat Den for a while.
MR. HUNNICUTT: In the arcade building?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was upstairs, and the downstairs was a bowling alley, and some of the young kids around would set pins there, and they’d get money for it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you ever go in the bowling alley?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes, I went in.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was it like inside?
MRS. JOHNSON: I thought it was nice at that time just to have the bowling alley, and that was because we were kind of closed in, and we were very active young people. We very seldom sat at home because there wasn’t a computer or TV in those days.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You spoke about eating at the cafeterias. Where was the cafeteria located?
MRS. JOHNSON: There was one at Central here, Central Avenue, and it’s where the Village Restaurant. That used to be a cafeteria.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where the Village Restaurant used to be?
MRS. JOHNSON: And we’d meet other kids there, or we’d make appointments to go down there to meet, and then after skating we’d go to the West Town Cafeteria and all go there, and some of those kids would do dumb things like who could drink the most milk and then get sick, and you know it was some of the crazy things we did as young people. (Laughter)
MR. HUNNICUTT: You spoke of the West Town Cafeteria. Where was that located?
MRS. JOHNSON: That was Jefferson Avenue out there, Jefferson Cafeteria.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was that by the skating rink?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was. It was all in that complex. The skating rink was across from Weigel’s out there, and then the cafeteria was where the Jefferson Drug Store is now, and I think that drug store was there way back. I don’t remember when it started, but it seems to me it was there for a long time.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you get to that end of town when you were dating?
MRS. JOHNSON: My dad drove me most of the time.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You know, when you were dating --
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, when I was dating --
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you get there?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, well some of the guys would have a car and some didn’t, and finally when I started dating my husband, he would borrow a car from his buddy or something, and then we’d go skating together.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me about the shift work. What was the hours that you worked?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, I hated shift work. It was—I was trying to think of those hours—I think I’d get off at 8 in the morning when I’d work the night shift, so that would make it the 8 to 5, if that will work out, and then I don’t remember when it started, but it must have started about 11 or something, and I rode in a carpool with some older fellows, guys my dad knew, and they did it for my dad, you know, took me in the carpool, but I would pay because I didn’t have a car to reciprocate.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you get involved in any clubs or any activities before you got married?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, and I can’t remember what they were right now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Ok, tell me about the neighborhoods that you mentioned that everyone got together and had good times. What were the neighbors like?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, great neighbors. Everybody being away from their original family, older families and all, they were lonely for family, so we’d all get together, and a lot of times in my dad’s and mother’s backyard people would come there, and we’d play croquet. We’d play all different games in that backyard, badminton, and in the winter, we’d always be sliding down in the backyard and making snowmen and all.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how your mother washed clothes?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, we sent them to the cleaners and the laundry for, I’d say at least, a year or two and got all our clothes back nice and pressed and clean, and then my dad was told that he should get credit some place he didn’t like to owe anybody anything. He’d go just about every other year up to Detroit and buy a new car, cash, because he didn’t believe in credit cards, and they finally talked him into it. So he went to Sears and got a credit card, and decided they’d buy a washer and dryer, and they did, and up until then we would, you know, send it out or maybe wash by hand some things, you know, but I liked that, getting everything already cleaned and laundried, and you didn’t have to worry about it, but that was the first thing my dad ever bought on time was the washer and dryer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you—did someone come to the house and pick the laundry up, or did you have to take it to them.
MRS. JOHNSON: They came to the house to get it, and they would deliver it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do, do you recall clothes lines in the yards?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, and we’d put out blankets to air and all, different covers whatever they were. I can remember hanging them, and then after I got married I can remember hanging diapers in the back yard sometimes because I used the washing machine and hang the diapers up there. (Laughter)
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have a telephone --
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- when you came?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Were you on a party line?
MRS. JOHNSON: I don’t think we were ever on a party line. Everybody talked about it, but we never had any, that I know of.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you ever leave the city to go outside the gates?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me about that experience, going through the gates and coming back.
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, we’d have to have our badges, and we’d usually catch the bus down near where Warehouse Road. I was trying to think what’s down there some. It’s behind the Security Square. There was a road back there, and I think that’s where we caught the bus.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The Central Bus Station?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes. You’ve got a good memory. Anyway, you’re young yet. That’s why, but I can remember one time we were going to Knoxville to a movie theater, a group of us, and I forgot my badge, and so when we got to the gate out there, Elza Gate, everybody else had their badge but me, and I had to stay there at that shack until my dad came and got me, and they went to the movie, and I missed it, and that’s when I met my husband, out there. He was one of the guards.
MR. HUNNICUTT: We’ll get to that in a minute, but tell me about when you came back into the city. What did you have to do to get back in?
MRS. JOHNSON: You had to have your car checked over if you were in a car, and your trunk, and if you went out for liquor, which people did in those days, you had to hide whatever you brought in really good because if they caught you with it they’d take it away from you. We never did get caught bringing liquor back in, but that wasn’t us kids, that was the adults, like my parents and all.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how they hid the liquor?
MRS. JOHNSON: In under a coat or something. I don’t remember too many trips like that because it scared me, and I didn’t want to go with them when they went to get it, but everybody knew where to go and how to get it and that, even though it was illegal, we all had it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, when they took the liquor from you, did they do anything to you?
MRS. JOHNSON: We never had it taken from us.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall anyone that had that happen?
MRS. JOHNSON: No. No, I don’t, but I’ve heard a lot of them talk about how they hid it, you know, and it wasn’t like when they’re hunting now in seats or under or like that. It was mostly in their clothes, in their coat, women would keep it in their coats, and they wouldn’t make the women get out of the car.
MR. HUNNICUTT: They didn’t search each person, personally?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, no, they did not, but it might have been because we got to know the fellows at the portals and, you know, just their courtesy.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You said a badge. Was this your work badge?
MRS. JOHNSON: First, it was the resident’s badge, and even the kids had to have them, and then my work badge replaced the resident badge.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they tell you not to take your work badge anywhere with you except back and forth to work?
MRS. JOHNSON: Seems to me they did. I had forgotten that, but you had to be real careful with it I knew.
MR. HUNNICUTT: From a security standpoint?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So, you had these personal ID badges. Describe what that looked like.
MRS. JOHNSON: They were a blue color and maybe about an inch by an inch and a half. I don’t know for sure, but close. That was it, and they had your picture on it and your name.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have a number assigned?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, a number assigned.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember your number?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I was just looking at one that was my husband’s just the other day, and I don’t remember my number at all.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where did you go to get this personal badge?
MRS. JOHNSON: Maybe City Hall, I believe, and that was in Jackson Square.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember where in Jackson Square?
MRS. JOHNSON: I believe it was the side where it used to be a bank.
MR. HUNNICUTT: On Kentucky Avenue?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Is that City Hall?
MRS. JOHNSON: That’s what I remember, but, you know, my memory’s not as good as it used to be.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now, the Rec Hall and the Library was that --
MRS. JOHNSON: That was --
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- across the street?
MRS. JOHNSON: -- the building across the street, right. They were on, yeah, Kentucky Avenue, and the Library and everything was on the west side, and, if I’m not mistaken, City Hall was on the left, and there was a bank in Jackson Square.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Hamilton National Bank?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What else do you remember store wise in Jackson Square?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, let’s see. There was a drapery store up where the Wildcat Den was and there was a store for men’s clothes—the name, oh --
MR. HUNNICUTT: Samuel’s?
MRS. JOHNSON: Samuel’s, that was it, and what was on the corner? The drug store was on Georgia Avenue corner at that time, and they had a little fountain there where you could get Cokes and things and your medicine.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the name of that drug store?
MRS. JOHNSON: I was just trying to think of it. I started to say Haskin’s or Hoskin’s, but it wasn’t, that’s Clinton, and we knew the fellow real well that run that store. In fact, he hired my older son when he was 16. He had a motor bike, and he did their deliveries for them, of medicine and all.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Service Drug Store?
MRS. JOHNSON: Service Drug Store, right, and I’m trying to think of the name of the fellow that, my dad and he were good friends, and I can’t think of his name now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about indoor movie theaters?
MRS. JOHNSON: In the middle of Jackson Square there was a theater, and that was Central. I think we just called Central Theater. There was one at Grove Center, a theater, and I’m trying to think. There was a little shopping center at Elm Grove and the one at Jackson Square. There was a shopping center up on New York Avenue, and there was one out at Jefferson, and I think that was all of them that I can remember.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the Midtown shopping area?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where was that located?
MRS. JOHNSON: That was out on the Turnpike, and the Army engineers were in barracks out there right near that area. I think the engineers were behind that shopping center, and it was like the market we had down here on Saturday and Wednesday only there was a closed in building, but they had vegetables and fruit and some things. My mother had a funny experience. We weren’t used to some of the words like “poke” and that, and the guy asked my mother if she wanted a poke when she got her groceries there, and she turned to my dad, and she said, “Fred, did you hear that?” My dad told her it was a paper bag, so that was one of the funny experiences we had.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That might have been at the Farmer’s Market?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have any visitors that visited the family during those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, my grandmother came down, and we had to meet her at the gate. We had to go out to the gate to get her. She came from, I guess—did she come on the bus or the train? It seems to me it was trains in those days, and she had to fill out some papers, and they gave her a temporary badge while she was here visiting. Then my grandfather on the other side, he came for a visit, and my mother’s two brothers, they came for a visit, and they all had to have temporary badges while they were here.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they remark about the city, or do you recall?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, they thought it was—they said it seemed so small, you know, because it was small, you know. There was a lot of people here at that time, but a lot of people were coming in to work from other cities, as far as Morristown I was thinking of, and those little towns and come every day to here to work.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about other housing in Oak Ridge, trailers and hutments?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, there was a trailer court out there in Midtown. I was trying to think. It was out there where the telephone company now has a building, and that was some business like a gas station, I believe, and a little store. I can’t think of the name of it, but it was very popular place, and the trailers were behind there. That way I imagine where the museum is now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember trailer parks by where the high school is today on the Turnpike?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right. That was before the high school, yes. It was—I never did go much to the trailers. I have no idea why I never went to those trailers or to that area, maybe I had nobody there to visit.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about flat tops? Did you ever go in a flat top?
MRS. JOHNSON: I ended up in a flat top with my husband when we had our first child, and that was an interesting experience.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, we’ll get to that in a minute. Let’s go back a little bit. When did you meet your husband?
MRS. JOHNSON: In ’45.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And you related that he was a MP guard out at the gate you went through.
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me how that took place.
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, there was—I ended up with a reduction in force out at the plant, and we could have went for more training. I was doing Alpha work, and they were going to change all the Alpha to Beta, and I didn’t want to go to school to learn the Beta, so I took retirement, and I went to work for the Army in the Army PX as a bookkeeper, and now they don’t call them that, but that’s what I was called then, and once in a while I’d fill in, out in the PX selling merchandise, and the PX was losing money, and they couldn’t figure out why that was every weekend they’d lose like $1,000.00 in money or merchandise, and they couldn’t figure out how, and I got to talking to the lieutenant, Lt. Foltz. Captain Ayers was in charge of the PX, and Lt. Foltz was his assistant, and I told him. I said, “Why don’t you keep track of your registers over the weekends and see if you can find out if it’s going through there or not?” And so I opened my big mouth, and I got the job.
Every weekend I was going in and just quickly doing inventory, just not a lot of records or anything, just seeing what has been depleted and, you know, what hasn’t been touched, and I kept finding out that the Tide was disappearing over the weekend and the hose, and there was a couple of main things that everybody wanted so much, and that’s what was disappearing over the weekend out of the store part of the PX, and so I told Lt. Foltz about it , and I said, “Somebody is helping themself to a lot of merchandise”, because we had—and I was pretty good at math—I could say we had so much of that Tide on Friday, and then, when we came back in on Monday, it was down too, and I gave him what I thought was a guess of the amount and then with some of the other things that I had seen, and so they had some way or other they got somebody to come in over the weekend and hide in the building, and thank God they didn’t ask me. I’d have been scared to death. Anyway, and they found out the manager, this Mack whatever his name was, he had a bedroom right in the building, a little small corner room, and that’s where he slept and lived. And they checked that out, and they found he had stacked in there the Tide and the hose and a lot of other stuff, and they caught him on the weekend letting a guy come into the PX and get all this stuff, and then they found out there was a penny arcade in Clinton, and that’s where the stuff was going to, and so I got a lot of thanks for helping them solve it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, where was the PX located?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was across from St. Mary’s.
MR. HUNNICUTT: On the Turnpike?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That’s about where CVS is today maybe?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, what was in the… You say PX, tell me what that is.
MRS. JOHNSON: That’s a servicemen’s grocery store, and also it was a bar. There was a bar they could come and drink and had tables, and they’d have music on radio or something, not live music, and a lot of the servicemen would come there at night and have parties and get-togethers. One half of it was the store, and not only groceries. They had toothpaste, toothbrushes, and everything, and then the other half was the liquor.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That was for military people only?
MRS. JOHNSON: But they could bring in a --
MR. HUNNICUTT: Civilians?
MRS. JOHNSON: -- civilians anytime they wanted, but civilians just didn’t come there and shop. It was only for the military and the same with the bar. The military could bring in their friends that were not in the military, but it was a military bar.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now you were leading up to how you met your husband when you talked about the PX.
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, I was coming home from riding the horses one day on the bus, and Virgil and his buddy were on the bus. I guess they were going probably to the PX maybe, and I was going home, but anyway he said “hi” to me, and I’d never seen him before, and then he went back and sat with his buddy, and he told me he asked his buddy if he knew who I was, and the guy said, “Yeah, she works down at the PX”, and told him my name, so Virgil came in the PX to meet me, and that’s when I first went on a date with him. You know what the date was? To walk from the PX down to—what was that little food place on the Turnpike?—Snow White, and we went there and had some coffee and something sweet to eat, and then he walked me all the way up to the house, to my home, and then he had to walk back to catch a ride or something to the barracks that was way out West End.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall where the Snow White was located?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, it was right across from where the hospital is, is where the Snow White used to be, and George Warne used to have something to do with the Snow White, and then he had a cleaning business right there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Next door to the Snow White?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right close to it anyway, I don’t know.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the name of the cleaning business?
MRS. JOHNSON: I thought it was…I remember Philpot’s, but that wasn’t his. It was after he gave up his business. Philpot took over. Warne’s?
MR. HUNNICUTT: New York Avenue Cleaners?
MRS. JOHNSON: New York Avenue, right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Talking about Philpot Cleaners, where were they located?
MRS. JOHNSON: You mean after? They were in the same place Warne’s was. I think they just took it over.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now the Snow White, did they have curb service?
MRS. JOHNSON: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall what it looked like inside?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, it was booths. As you go in the door, there were booths on both sides of the doors, and then they had a counter with some stools on it also. Gosh, that was a long time ago.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you visit the Snow White --
MRS. JOHNSON: Often.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- many more times?
MRS. JOHNSON: Often. (Laughter)
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was that a gathering place for young people?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, sort of. Some of them would think it was for the old folks, but it wasn’t. They liked the food, but the kids gathered there a lot.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was your next job after working at the PX?
MRS. JOHNSON: That was it until I was married and had a child. We had the Downtown, open Downtown Mall, and I had a friend who had an accident, and she had a little hat shop, hats and gloves and scarves and everything, just accessories for women, and she couldn’t work for about three months, and she asked me to manage her store for her, and I did. It was lots of fun.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When Jackson Square was the main shopping center of Oak Ridge, do you recall some of the department stores that was located there?
MRS. JOHNSON: (Laughter) Yes, just before you said that I thought of it, and now it’s gone. There was, oh, the same was in Knoxville, Watson’s was one.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Before Watson’s there was Loveman’s?
MRS. JOHNSON: Loveman’s, and was Miller’s there also? No, Miller’s was in the open mall, I think.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Miller’s before Loveman’s?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was that a store that had clothing and all --
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- essentials like that?
MRS. JOHNSON: And near it was a sportsman’s store that Whitman’s owned, and he and his son ran that and his wife too, and when the father died the son took over.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the Music Box?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And what was that?
MRS. JOHNSON: That was a place where they sold records and all kinds of music and music boxes and all those kinds of things and, in the olden days, not tape players but record machines. They sold those. I can’t even think of what we called them back then.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall where it was located?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, on the corner of Broadway and I can’t think of that side street now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about dancing on the tennis courts. What do you remember about that?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, it was fun. I guess we ruined our shoes, but it was lots of fun, and I mean it was so crowded we’d bump into each other all the time. There was so many people that went there, and it was a good outlet, and a lot of older people liked it too that still danced, but a lot of the young people. We didn’t miss it for anything, and I was dating a serviceman, not Virgil, another fellow at that time, and we didn’t miss a dance. We were there every time they had a dance.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How often did they have dancing?
MRS. JOHNSON: At least once a week.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have to pay?
MRS. JOHNSON: You know, I don’t remember. Maybe it was because I didn’t pay.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they have any refreshments at the dances or just music and dancing?
MRS. JOHNSON: When they had them inside, they had some machines in the recreation building, as we called it then, and that was when Pollock would play the music, and kids would come after school there, and they had big dances there because the Army Engineers had some of their big dances in that building, and I was there every dance. It was lots of fun.
MR. HUNNICUTT: This was the Rec Hall in the Jackson Square on Broadway?
MRS. JOHNSON: Jackson Square, right across from the Alexander.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You’re referring to the Alexander that was the Guesthouse, I believe, in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: The Guesthouse, yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was this Bill Pollock that --
MRS. JOHNSON: Bill Pollock.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- that you’re referring to?
MRS. JOHNSON: Uh-huh.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did he pipe the music into the tennis courts, or did they have live bands when you had dances?
MRS. JOHNSON: They had taped music, and I think he did all those. I don’t remember. Now, they might have had a special dance once or twice and had music in, live music, but most of the time it was Pollock.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Let me ask you about where you were when you heard about them dropping the bomb on Japan in 1945.
MRS. JOHNSON: I was at the skating rink.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they announce that, that had happened?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was your thoughts?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, I was surprised because I didn’t know we were making a bomb. That’s when they got that picture of me on that car because we had this big parade in Oak Ridge, and this reporter from the Sentinel came to the skating rink, or he had been there or something, and we all heard it, and he said would you like to get in the parade, and we girls said, “Sure”. We all had these little short skirts on, you know, and our skates, and he said, “Keep your skates on”, and he got four of us to get on this car and get in the parade, and it was lots of fun, but kind of dangerous sitting on that—and, of course, they had the fenders, you know, that was easy to sit on and that, so we had a lot of fun with that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Let’s talk a little bit about the parade. That was in March of 1949 when they opened the gates to the city.
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, well that was a different one.
MR. HUNNICUTT: A different parade?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah that was—this other one was in VJ Day (inaudible).
MR. HUNNICUTT: So, where did the parade on that particular day, where did it start?
MRS. JOHNSON: I think that it—I have the feeling that it started at the West End and went east, and the reason I think that is because this fellow was out at the West End starting to form it. Is your time up?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Ok, I was confused of which parade you were talking about. So, we had a VJ parade?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right, and that was before the opening of the gates.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So, in March of 1949 they opened the gates to the public or the world.
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about that day?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, it was a crazy, crazy day. Everybody was so crowded, and they had these actors and actresses here, and it just seemed like it did something to the city or to me because this actor, I know you’re familiar with who he was, he got drunk, and that wasn’t a good sight for any of us to see. You know, we just weren’t used to that, and people were wild like they were crazy, and I was afraid I’d get crushed in this crowd, so I kept moving back and moving back, and I was with my husband, but it was like the world was going nuts. That’s the way I felt.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where were you standing when you observed the parade?
MRS. JOHNSON: Out at the East End near Elza Gate.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So you went to the gate opening ceremonies. --
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- at the East End?
MRS. JOHNSON: But we didn’t go right up in the front where all that was going. We—I kept going further back and further back to get away from the crowd. It was so hectic.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember seeing the explosion of the ribbon?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I don’t remember that because I was far enough back that I couldn’t see it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you get out there to the gate opening?
MRS. JOHNSON: I think we drove.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you attend any of the other activities during the gate opening ceremonies?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I didn’t. I just, as I said, it bothered me for some reason. I don’t know. I wasn’t that happy about the gate opening. I thought it was great having the city, you know, protected like it was and all the fences and everything. I had gotten used to that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So you felt safe living here?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now, you’ve met your husband, and where did you all go on dates?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, we went to the skating rink or to the movies or to go out to eat, once in a while to Knoxville, but not a whole lot.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was your husband a military person?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did he work for the Army?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And what was his job?
MRS. JOHNSON: He was one of the MP guards of the city.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So when you two got married, he was still in the Army?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, he had just gotten out when we got married.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the year you got married?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, it was ’46.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And where did you get married?
MRS. JOHNSON: In, gosh I can’t even think—we went away with another couple down to Georgia, and this Mr. French down there that everybody talked about, he’d married everybody, and I think he was one of them that married us down in Georgia. Rossville, Georgia and came home and was afraid to face my folks.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So how did you --
MRS. JOHNSON: They had already planned to have a wedding at home in the house and everything, and I had to come home and face them, and I wouldn’t let Virgil come in. I told him to go back to the barracks, and I went in, and I told them, and, oh, my folks were mad. Oh, they just couldn’t believe I’d do that. I was always the goodie girl, you know, and not do something like run off and get married.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How old were you?
MRS. JOHNSON: I was—I’m trying to think—that should be an easy date to remember. I think I was 19, and he was 23.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So, where did you first live?
MRS. JOHNSON: With my mother and dad for a few months, and then we got a place out at the East End of town.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the street?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, I did. (Laughter) It’s off of Alabama. The street runs the same as the Turnpike, and it was the first street up from the Turnpike, a little flat top.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the house number?
MRS. JOHNSON: Arrowwood Lane. I think it was 115.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me about a flat top. Describe what that looks like.
MRS. JOHNSON: It was a little box, and it was up off the ground on stakes of some kind or that, and I remember what worried me was in the bedroom was a little door in the wall, and that was an escape door in case of fire or anything, and everything was square, the square house, the square rooms, and the square windows, and we called them a cracker box, but we had lots of fun there. (Laughter) We had our first child there, and I’d walk from out at Arrowwood all the way back up to Georgia pushing the baby in the stroller and thought it was fun.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of heat did you have in the flat top?
MRS. JOHNSON: We had a little stove, a potbellied stove, that we’d put coal in, I believe, if I’m not mistaken, and it was in the center of the house, and it kept us warm. Don’t ever remember it being cold. Of course, we didn’t live there too long, and we moved into another flat top out at the West End.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was the street?
MRS. JOHNSON: That one was Robertsville Road.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the house number?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, no.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was it the same size flat top?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, it was bigger. It was a two bedroom, that one. The other one was a one bedroom, and we weren’t there too long. We bought a little house up off Malta Road off of Michigan, and that was a two bedroom A house.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did the second flat top have a little escape door that you could get out of?
MRS. JOHNSON: I don’t remember it in that one.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The A house on Malta, do you remember the house number?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, 104.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me what an A house is.
MRS. JOHNSON: An A house is a two bedroom cemesto with one bath and a coal room and a furnace room with a furnace, and you’d put coal into it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was this the same setup as your C house that you used to live in with a coal room?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned cemesto. What is that?
MRS. JOHNSON: Cemesto, that’s the building material they used. It’s two pieces of slate with the cemesto inside of it, and it’s a very good building product to keep a nice, warm house. I was amazed at how they ever came up with that material.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now did you, did the family have an automobile at that time?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes. Everybody had, in the family, had an automobile.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned your first child was born at the other flat top. He was born in Oak Ridge Hospital?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the year?
MRS. JOHNSON: ’47.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall, when you were in the hospital at Oak Ridge, did you have good care?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, I had an experience. There was a section of the hospital called West Mall or something. It was on New York and Tennessee, and I ended up with, what was called, like roseola or something, and it was serious for a woman that was pregnant to have that for fear that it would hurt the child, so I had to stay in a special wing of that hospital for a couple months, and nobody could come and visit me. They could come outside the building and look through the window, and that was all for two months, and that was tough, but otherwise other than that it was a very bare hospital, military, and all military doctors. My doctor was in the service, and quite a few of them that took different parts of our family like the eye doctor and the kids doctor, all of them was, you know, servicemen.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, where did you do your grocery shopping when you lived in the flat top on the West End?
MRS. JOHNSON: There was a grocery store out there, but I believe I came back to Jackson Square to shop.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The house on Malta, the A cemesto, did you continue to shop in the Jackson Square area then?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I changed and went down to the A & P store, which was somewhere across from St. Mary’s Church in that area.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Off of the Turnpike?
MRS. JOHNSON: And it was there for quite a few years, the A & P. It was a good store.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of work was your husband into at that time?
MRS. JOHNSON: He was in the Chemical Department at K-25.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was that his first job he got after getting out of the Army?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, no, there was another one. He went in the Guard Department first and wasn’t in there too long, and then he transferred to the Chemistry Department, and that was out at K-25, and then later he went to X-10 and worked in the isotope field as an isotope sales correspondent.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember any rolling stores that went through the town and would sell produce and things out of the back of the trucks?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, but it’s very faint. I seem to remember them down there on the Turnpike, but I can’t remember exactly where.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about after you got married, what kind of activities social-wise was you and your husband involved in?
MRS. JOHNSON: We were in a lot of different dance clubs. We were in square dance, round dance, round dance, ballroom dancing, Latin dancing. Every one of these were clubs, and we both bowled and belonged to the bowling organization as officers, and what else we did? We were so busy. We went camping every summer with our kids. We rented a lot out at Watt’s Bar that had a little building on it, and we put up a tent next to it for the kids to sleep in. We had a boat, and we did a lot of water skiing and some fishing.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you ever visit the American Museum of Atomic Energy?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes. It used to be out at the west end of town on, was it, Jefferson Avenue.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about the museum?
MRS. JOHNSON: (Laughter) I remember them pulling tricks on the little kids with the round ball, you know, that will make their hair stand up, but I thought it was very well done, and I was real proud of the people that put it together and kept it going. A lot of volunteers worked in that museum from when they first started it, and some of them still are working at it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When your husband was working, did you ever have any idea what he was doing at that time at the plant?
MRS. JOHNSON: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: K-25?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I didn’t because he was working with isotopes, and that was still kind of quiet.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Your first child was that a boy or girl?
MRS. JOHNSON: A boy.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What’s his name?
MRS. JOHNSON: Randy.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And you have other children?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, I have another son, Donald, and then a daughter Amelia.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they attend the Oak Ridge school system?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, all the way through.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What did you notice about their school years versus when you went to school? What as the differences?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was more structured for one thing, and I don’t think it was quite as relaxed as when I went to school. It was a little—they worked harder on improving the different ways of teaching. They would teach the kids to do like fast reading and a different type of math than what I did, and it was just more advanced.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did your children get to school?
MRS. JOHNSON: They rode the bus some, and then the rest of the time I drove them.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they have a particular—what was the dress like for the boys and girls in your family that went to school?
MRS. JOHNSON: They didn’t, I don’t ever remember the boys wearing jeans so much as they do now. They dressed a little bit better than now. Everybody wears jeans now, even we old ladies do, and in those days kids just dressed up more. It wasn’t quite dress like church, but just a little step under that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Has your children ever mentioned about the Oak Ridge school system and whether it really gave them a good education or mediocre?
MRS. JOHNSON: They thought it was good. They really did.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Your husband, Virgil, what kind of school background did he have?
MRS. JOHNSON: He graduated from high school in Urbana, Illinois, and then I don’t know if he went right into the service then or not, but he had some college up in Urbana-Champaign, and I’m trying to think what was his field because he ended up with a degree for chemistry. Boy, I get a blank.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Back to the house on Malta Road, where did you move to after that?
MRS. JOHNSON: Here on Georgia Avenue.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where we are today?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And you lived --
MRS. JOHNSON: We had bought that house, and sold it. We bought it from the government and then sold it and bought this one, and it was a larger house, and that’s what we wanted, and I wanted to be near my parents, which was right down the street. And my husband didn’t mind, which was very nice. He was a good man, and so, in fact, we moved in here in the fall, and just a month after we moved in here, my dad passed away, and so I was glad I was this close then.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall anything else about Oak Ridge that we haven’t talked about that you would like to talk about?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, we had bought property out in the west end, out off of West Outer, and we were going to move there to a bigger house and nicer and all, and in the meantime we had a basement put under our house with a bedroom and a bath, and then I talked with a lot of my friends that lived out west, and I asked them about their neighborhoods and what kind of neighbors they had, and they all told me they didn’t know because they didn’t know their neighbors, and I don’t know whether it was because they were just doing so much, so busy, or whether people weren’t as friendly, or houses too far apart. I have no idea, but we mentioned to a couple of our neighbors that we thought about moving, and they said, “Oh, don’t move. Please don’t move.” So, we backed out on that, and now I’m so glad we did because now I’m in a small house, and I feel safe with neighbors I know, and I think it was a good decision.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, Betty, I thank you for your time, and it’s been my pleasure to interview you, and I think that your oral history will be really useful in the future for anyone wanting to know about how life was in Oak Ridge in the early days, so thank you very much.
MRS. JOHNSON: You’re welcome.
[End of Interview]
[Editor’s Note: Portions of this transcript have been edited at Mrs. Johnson’s request. The corresponding audio and video remain unchanged.]

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ORAL HISTORY OF BETTY SCHAFER JOHNSON
Interviewed by Don Hunnicutt
Filmed by BBB Communications, LLC.
November 5, 2012
MR. HUNNICUTT: This interview is for the Center of Oak Ridge Oral History. The date is November 5, 2012. I am Don Hunnicutt in the home of Mrs. Betty Schafer Johnson, 121 Georgia Avenue, Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Please state your name, your maiden name, and your place of birth.
MRS. JOHNSON: Betty Schafer-Johnson, Duluth, Minnesota.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was the date of your birth?
MRS. JOHNSON: 03/13/27.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was your father’s name?
MRS. JOHNSON: Frederick Schafer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And do you recall where he was born and the date?
MRS. JOHNSON: The date was 11/27/1902, and it was Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Your mother’s name, maiden name, and place of birth?
MRS. JOHNSON: Fern Lowe in Duluth, Minnesota.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the date?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, March 29, ’07.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about your father? How far did he go in school, and what was his education background?
MRS. JOHNSON: He went to—I can’t exactly remember the college. He went to college in Duluth, and then he was hired by Remington Arms Company, and the job was in Denver, Colorado, and he moved our family from Duluth to Denver. And a scout for the Manhattan Project, but anyway the scouts went to different big companies to hire people, and they went to Remington Arms in Denver and hired my father from there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about your mother? What was her school history?
MRS. JOHNSON: She did not graduate high school. I think she went thru 10th grade in Duluth, Minnesota.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you have any sisters and brothers?
MRS. JOHNSON: Two brothers.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What were their names?
MRS. JOHNSON: Fred Schafer and Don Schafer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When your father was working in Denver, Colorado, at the Remington Arms Company, you said that there were some scouts. Do you mean people who came from Oak Ridge looking for employees?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And they contacted him for employment in Oak Ridge?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the type of job they interviewed him for?
MRS. JOHNSON: Process engineer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was your school background, Betty?
MRS. JOHNSON: I went to junior high in Duluth, Minnesota, and just got to Denver. I was already in the 10th grade, and I went to school all year round and graduated when I was 16 from East High in Denver, Colorado.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What year was that?
MRS. JOHNSON: In 1943. We moved from Denver in ’43, and I had already graduated.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you get from—how did the family get from Denver to Oak Ridge when they came here?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, my dad came right from Denver, but our family went by way of Duluth, Minnesota, and stayed there a couple months while my dad was here living in the Alexander.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The Alexander Hotel, or the Guest House it was called in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: The Guest House, right. He stayed there for a couple months until he got a house up on Georgia Avenue, and that was by the first of the year.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me a little bit about when you went to school before coming to Oak Ridge. What was the dress for a girl in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: No slacks at all. Girls didn’t wear anything but skirts or dresses, but we just weren’t into slacks in those days.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you like school?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, I loved it. That’s why I graduated so young because I went summer and fall and winter and spring until I got out. When I moved to Denver, of course, I had to make new friends, and didn’t have anybody to run around with for a while, so school was my outlet. In Denver, while I was in high school, I went to the telephone company and trained as an operator, and while I was doing that, because I wanted to work all the time, I also went to business college and became a secretary. And, so when I came to Oak Ridge, that’s what I signed up for at the plant.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So your father came to Oak Ridge to get established, and then the rest of the family came when?
MRS. JOHNSON: I don’t remember if it was January.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how the rest of the family arrived in Oak Ridge?
MRS. JOHNSON: We were all together in Duluth and traveled from there to Oak Ridge.
MR. HUNNICUTT: By car?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So you just said earlier that you lived in a house on Georgia Avenue. What was the address?
MRS. JOHNSON: 116.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of house was that?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was a C house.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you refer to C house, what does that mean?
MRS. JOHNSON: Three bedroom, one bath, and the family house, that house is still in the family as of today.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of heat did you have in the C house?
MRS. JOHNSON: We had coal. They delivered it in buckets to a coal bin we had in the house and a furnace that you had to put the coal in.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how often they delivered the coal to the house?
MRS. JOHNSON: It seems to me it was once a week, but that sounds quite often, but the coals bins weren’t that big in the house. They had an exit door that was just for the coal, and they would come and deliver it to this little door into a coal bin, as they called it, and I don’t remember how big they were, but about half or less that size of a bathroom.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall, when you said delivered, did they carry it by buckets or was there a shoot that went into the --
MRS. JOHNSON: Some of them had shoots, and some didn’t have an access. They would have to do buckets because it depends on what position the house was in and if they could get to it easy enough.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall if the heat was adequate? Was the house warm in the wintertime?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, as far as I can remember, we were never cold.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So there were two brothers, and you, and your mother and father in the C house. Did the two brothers share a bedroom, and you had your own bedroom?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right and then one brother went to the Air Force, my older brother, and went to Enid, Oklahoma, to college for the Air Force.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did any of your brothers—they were beyond school age when they came here?
MRS. JOHNSON: No. My younger brother was in high school here and graduated from Oak Ridge High.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall where the high school was located?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right above Jackson Square.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now when you came to Oak Ridge did you go to work right off, or did you look for work, or how did that pan out for you?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, I was underage, and I lied and said I was 18, and I got on at the plant as a secretary and a recorder. (Laughter) I took the readings on some of the cubicles in the Y-12 plant, and that was shift work too, which I didn’t like.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, back up just a little bit and tell me how you got the job. Where did you go to apply for work?
MRS. JOHNSON: I went to the building that was called the Castle on the Hill. That had to have been Monsanto, because it was about four different companies there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you walk to the place that you applied for work?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, no my dad drove me for the interview.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Can you remember what the interview was like?
MRS. JOHNSON: It, it was too easy I thought. If I could get by with that and lie about my age, my dad was already working there, and so they had my records with his, and yet they let me get a job there underage. I was very surprised.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And what type of job was this?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was a secretarial job.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And at what plant did you work?
MRS. JOHNSON: At Y-12.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall who you were a secretary for?
MRS. JOHNSON: I think his name was—he’s dead now—Pickett. I can’t think of his first name.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, when you first went to work, as a secretary at Y-12, what was that experience like?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, it was a great experience because sometimes when they needed somebody someplace else they would get from anywhere in the plant if they could use them some way, and they had me at one time go inside the track and go up on the second floor where they had these great big, they looked like round refrigerators or freezers, and they had this, like hot air, or like hot ice, something coming out of these.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Like dry ice?
MRS. JOHNSON: Dry ice, right, and I had to check the meter readings on those, and that was just a short while because a girl was sick, and I took her place there. But, then after working for Mr. Pickett, I went up to work for the process engineers, and there was about five of them in that office, and I was the only secretary, and they would go out in the field and make these reports by hand and then bring back all these pages, and I had to type them up and file them, and I was really bored because I was an active person, so I would help anybody around that needed some work, and I finally told my boss, “Is there anything else I could do”, while I was waiting for the engineers to come in with their reports. And so, I kept the records for the people that worked in the stores in that 9201-4 building where I worked, and so that is how I was working at the last.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you were typing the information did you have to use carbon paper?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That seemed to be the trend in those days.
MRS. JOHNSON: I think we did. Yeah, it was just what you would expect if you were working anywhere, and I never thought at the time about that being a form that they could copy on that copy paper.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was the information classified?
MRS. JOHNSON: Some of it was but --
MR. HUNNICUTT: But you had no idea what it all meant?
MRS. JOHNSON: I did not know what was and what wasn’t. It wasn’t printed as such, but I knew we were not allowed to tell what we were doing, any of it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you get back and forth to work when you started working?
MRS. JOHNSON: In a carpool.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you mother work --
MRS. JOHNSON: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- when the family came?
MRS. JOHNSON: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall your father ever saying anything about what he did at the plant?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I don’t think he ever told us exactly what he was doing.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So security was pretty high in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, gosh yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about the city being fenced in?
MRS. JOHNSON: I liked it because it was so safe. You know you hear these stories about the wars and fighting and everything, and I thought well we were in the safest place there was, and you just felt safe because you’d never see anybody drunk or loitering, anything like that. It was peaceful, and that doesn’t sound right for Oak Ridge, but it was to me, peaceful.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was there a lot of people here in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about the boardwalks? Do you remember the boardwalks?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, I had to usually wear boots of some kind, and the first day in Oak Ridge, my mother and I decided we were going to go down and see the Downtown area, which was Jackson Square, and so we put our heels on. You know we dressed up to go shopping and had gloves on and hats. Went Downtown, and we were the only ones dressed up at Jackson Square. We ended up walking back home, taking off the hat and gloves, and put on low shoes, and walked down the sidewalk then to Jackson Square.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the mud that was around the city in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes, awful. When I went to work I had to ride a cattle car. It was a trailer type vehicle that was pulled by a truck, and we had to sit on the sides of the car. There wasn’t seats like normally in a bus, and they called it a cattle car, but why they had benches all along the sides, I don’t know, but we’d wear our boots and carry our nice shoes there, and then we’d have to leave our boots in our locker and our coat and then put on our regular shoes to work.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you were riding the cattle cars, if it was raining, did you get wet?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes, and you’d walk in that mud and slip and slide and it was real uncomfortable.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall what your parents had to say about Oak Ridge after they had been here for a little while? Did your mother like being here?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, she would have liked to have been back up in Duluth with my grandmother, her sister and brothers, but where your husband goes, you go, and that’s the way it was in those days, and she learned to like it because we had some very good neighbors, and, of course, the neighbors would get together and play bridge and have lots of fun together, have parties.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how severe the winters were here in Oak Ridge in those early days?
MRS. JOHNSON: They were really tough. In fact, I had my skis from up in Duluth and my skates, and I went ahead and skied, out there on Georgia Avenue, the houses they had hills, and I wore my skis a couple of times back in the backyard and tried them out on the street, but I wasn’t brave enough to do enough on the street, but all the kids would get out on the street with their sleds and we had lots of snow.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall where your mother did her grocery shopping?
MRS. JOHNSON: Down at Jackson Square at that grocery store there. Community --
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember what the name?
MRS. JOHNSON: Community --
MR. HUNNICUTT: Community Store?
MRS. JOHNSON: Store, and at one time meat was so scarce that there was a grocery store up here on the hill where there was a little shopping center, we’d go out there and stand in line and get meat.
MR. HUNNICUTT: At the Outer Drive stores?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, and I dated a boy for a while there, and he worked up there at that store, so we always got choice meats. (Laughter) Talk about doing the wrong thing, but we enjoyed it and getting that special cuts of meat.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have ration stamps?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did that work?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, we had to go stand in line for cigarettes for one thing, and if you wanted nylon hose, you had to stand in line for that too. There was a lot of things— sugar was rationed, and I had forgotten that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So, where did you get the ration stamps?
MRS. JOHNSON: Must have went to City Hall or something. I don’t exactly remember.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Were you allotted so many stamps per family members?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, how big your family was.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about door-to-door salesmen?
MRS. JOHNSON: We didn’t have any. They weren’t allowed in the city.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about milk delivery?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, we had milk delivered. Norris Creamery delivered milk right to the door.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did the milk come and what type of container?
MRS. JOHNSON: I don’t remember whether it was bottles or cardboard cartons, but when we bought them at the store, we bought the cardboard cartons because I remember having a little square plastic thing that we’d slide our container in, and it had a handle on it, and that was really special to have that to use for your milk.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they just sit the milk on the back porch or the front porch?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right. The back porch, that’s where they’d put it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you pay the milkman?
MRS. JOHNSON: I’m trying to remember that. I think we got a bill.
MR. HUNNICUTT: He just wrote a bill, and you paid it?
MRS. JOHNSON: It wasn’t the most important thing to me at that time. I was just an older teenager, you know.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well now, you were 16 or 17.
MRS. JOHNSON: When we moved here, 17 because I had already graduated.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You spoke about dating a boy at the Outer Drive stores. Where did you go on dates?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, we went to the skating rink most of the time. It was a skating rink in the west end of town, and it was the place for all young people to go, and we’d go there skating just about every night if we could, and, of course, my dad would have to drive me there, and a lot of times he and my mother would stay there and watch me skating all night and then bring me home even though I was that old.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you ever use the bus system in town very much?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, tell me about that.
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, they had horses out at a horse stables out here at the west end of town, and I would go out there and ride the horses, and I had to take a bus there and a bus home, and it was pretty convenient.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they charge you to ride the horses?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes. It wasn’t free, and it was in the gates, you know.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Within the city?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember how much you made per week when you worked?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, gosh, I don’t have any idea.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, was it enough money for you to have a nice kind of free time?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes. I was very happy with the pay. Of course, my dad wasn’t happy. He wanted me to go on to college at UT [University of Tennessee], and I fought it. I said, “No, I’ve had enough schooling now. I want to have some fun.”
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall some other places you went on dates?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, we’d go to the cafeterias and eat, believe it or not, and then I would go down to the tennis courts to the dances, and that brick building that’s there that is now—it’s across from the Alexander—I can’t think what it’s called now,
but it was a recreation hall, and we’d have dances there, and kids after high school would just go there and join, and I was young enough I went there a lot, even though I was working because there was a lot of others that was working too, and the Wildcat Den when that was down in Jackson Square up above the bowling alley, was the Wildcat Den for a while.
MR. HUNNICUTT: In the arcade building?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was upstairs, and the downstairs was a bowling alley, and some of the young kids around would set pins there, and they’d get money for it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you ever go in the bowling alley?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes, I went in.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was it like inside?
MRS. JOHNSON: I thought it was nice at that time just to have the bowling alley, and that was because we were kind of closed in, and we were very active young people. We very seldom sat at home because there wasn’t a computer or TV in those days.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You spoke about eating at the cafeterias. Where was the cafeteria located?
MRS. JOHNSON: There was one at Central here, Central Avenue, and it’s where the Village Restaurant. That used to be a cafeteria.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where the Village Restaurant used to be?
MRS. JOHNSON: And we’d meet other kids there, or we’d make appointments to go down there to meet, and then after skating we’d go to the West Town Cafeteria and all go there, and some of those kids would do dumb things like who could drink the most milk and then get sick, and you know it was some of the crazy things we did as young people. (Laughter)
MR. HUNNICUTT: You spoke of the West Town Cafeteria. Where was that located?
MRS. JOHNSON: That was Jefferson Avenue out there, Jefferson Cafeteria.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was that by the skating rink?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was. It was all in that complex. The skating rink was across from Weigel’s out there, and then the cafeteria was where the Jefferson Drug Store is now, and I think that drug store was there way back. I don’t remember when it started, but it seems to me it was there for a long time.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you get to that end of town when you were dating?
MRS. JOHNSON: My dad drove me most of the time.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You know, when you were dating --
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, when I was dating --
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you get there?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, well some of the guys would have a car and some didn’t, and finally when I started dating my husband, he would borrow a car from his buddy or something, and then we’d go skating together.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me about the shift work. What was the hours that you worked?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, I hated shift work. It was—I was trying to think of those hours—I think I’d get off at 8 in the morning when I’d work the night shift, so that would make it the 8 to 5, if that will work out, and then I don’t remember when it started, but it must have started about 11 or something, and I rode in a carpool with some older fellows, guys my dad knew, and they did it for my dad, you know, took me in the carpool, but I would pay because I didn’t have a car to reciprocate.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you get involved in any clubs or any activities before you got married?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, and I can’t remember what they were right now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Ok, tell me about the neighborhoods that you mentioned that everyone got together and had good times. What were the neighbors like?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, great neighbors. Everybody being away from their original family, older families and all, they were lonely for family, so we’d all get together, and a lot of times in my dad’s and mother’s backyard people would come there, and we’d play croquet. We’d play all different games in that backyard, badminton, and in the winter, we’d always be sliding down in the backyard and making snowmen and all.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how your mother washed clothes?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, we sent them to the cleaners and the laundry for, I’d say at least, a year or two and got all our clothes back nice and pressed and clean, and then my dad was told that he should get credit some place he didn’t like to owe anybody anything. He’d go just about every other year up to Detroit and buy a new car, cash, because he didn’t believe in credit cards, and they finally talked him into it. So he went to Sears and got a credit card, and decided they’d buy a washer and dryer, and they did, and up until then we would, you know, send it out or maybe wash by hand some things, you know, but I liked that, getting everything already cleaned and laundried, and you didn’t have to worry about it, but that was the first thing my dad ever bought on time was the washer and dryer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you—did someone come to the house and pick the laundry up, or did you have to take it to them.
MRS. JOHNSON: They came to the house to get it, and they would deliver it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do, do you recall clothes lines in the yards?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, and we’d put out blankets to air and all, different covers whatever they were. I can remember hanging them, and then after I got married I can remember hanging diapers in the back yard sometimes because I used the washing machine and hang the diapers up there. (Laughter)
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have a telephone --
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- when you came?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Were you on a party line?
MRS. JOHNSON: I don’t think we were ever on a party line. Everybody talked about it, but we never had any, that I know of.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you ever leave the city to go outside the gates?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me about that experience, going through the gates and coming back.
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, we’d have to have our badges, and we’d usually catch the bus down near where Warehouse Road. I was trying to think what’s down there some. It’s behind the Security Square. There was a road back there, and I think that’s where we caught the bus.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The Central Bus Station?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes. You’ve got a good memory. Anyway, you’re young yet. That’s why, but I can remember one time we were going to Knoxville to a movie theater, a group of us, and I forgot my badge, and so when we got to the gate out there, Elza Gate, everybody else had their badge but me, and I had to stay there at that shack until my dad came and got me, and they went to the movie, and I missed it, and that’s when I met my husband, out there. He was one of the guards.
MR. HUNNICUTT: We’ll get to that in a minute, but tell me about when you came back into the city. What did you have to do to get back in?
MRS. JOHNSON: You had to have your car checked over if you were in a car, and your trunk, and if you went out for liquor, which people did in those days, you had to hide whatever you brought in really good because if they caught you with it they’d take it away from you. We never did get caught bringing liquor back in, but that wasn’t us kids, that was the adults, like my parents and all.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how they hid the liquor?
MRS. JOHNSON: In under a coat or something. I don’t remember too many trips like that because it scared me, and I didn’t want to go with them when they went to get it, but everybody knew where to go and how to get it and that, even though it was illegal, we all had it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, when they took the liquor from you, did they do anything to you?
MRS. JOHNSON: We never had it taken from us.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall anyone that had that happen?
MRS. JOHNSON: No. No, I don’t, but I’ve heard a lot of them talk about how they hid it, you know, and it wasn’t like when they’re hunting now in seats or under or like that. It was mostly in their clothes, in their coat, women would keep it in their coats, and they wouldn’t make the women get out of the car.
MR. HUNNICUTT: They didn’t search each person, personally?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, no, they did not, but it might have been because we got to know the fellows at the portals and, you know, just their courtesy.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You said a badge. Was this your work badge?
MRS. JOHNSON: First, it was the resident’s badge, and even the kids had to have them, and then my work badge replaced the resident badge.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they tell you not to take your work badge anywhere with you except back and forth to work?
MRS. JOHNSON: Seems to me they did. I had forgotten that, but you had to be real careful with it I knew.
MR. HUNNICUTT: From a security standpoint?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So, you had these personal ID badges. Describe what that looked like.
MRS. JOHNSON: They were a blue color and maybe about an inch by an inch and a half. I don’t know for sure, but close. That was it, and they had your picture on it and your name.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have a number assigned?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, a number assigned.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember your number?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I was just looking at one that was my husband’s just the other day, and I don’t remember my number at all.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where did you go to get this personal badge?
MRS. JOHNSON: Maybe City Hall, I believe, and that was in Jackson Square.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember where in Jackson Square?
MRS. JOHNSON: I believe it was the side where it used to be a bank.
MR. HUNNICUTT: On Kentucky Avenue?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Is that City Hall?
MRS. JOHNSON: That’s what I remember, but, you know, my memory’s not as good as it used to be.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now, the Rec Hall and the Library was that --
MRS. JOHNSON: That was --
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- across the street?
MRS. JOHNSON: -- the building across the street, right. They were on, yeah, Kentucky Avenue, and the Library and everything was on the west side, and, if I’m not mistaken, City Hall was on the left, and there was a bank in Jackson Square.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Hamilton National Bank?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What else do you remember store wise in Jackson Square?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, let’s see. There was a drapery store up where the Wildcat Den was and there was a store for men’s clothes—the name, oh --
MR. HUNNICUTT: Samuel’s?
MRS. JOHNSON: Samuel’s, that was it, and what was on the corner? The drug store was on Georgia Avenue corner at that time, and they had a little fountain there where you could get Cokes and things and your medicine.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the name of that drug store?
MRS. JOHNSON: I was just trying to think of it. I started to say Haskin’s or Hoskin’s, but it wasn’t, that’s Clinton, and we knew the fellow real well that run that store. In fact, he hired my older son when he was 16. He had a motor bike, and he did their deliveries for them, of medicine and all.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Service Drug Store?
MRS. JOHNSON: Service Drug Store, right, and I’m trying to think of the name of the fellow that, my dad and he were good friends, and I can’t think of his name now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about indoor movie theaters?
MRS. JOHNSON: In the middle of Jackson Square there was a theater, and that was Central. I think we just called Central Theater. There was one at Grove Center, a theater, and I’m trying to think. There was a little shopping center at Elm Grove and the one at Jackson Square. There was a shopping center up on New York Avenue, and there was one out at Jefferson, and I think that was all of them that I can remember.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the Midtown shopping area?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where was that located?
MRS. JOHNSON: That was out on the Turnpike, and the Army engineers were in barracks out there right near that area. I think the engineers were behind that shopping center, and it was like the market we had down here on Saturday and Wednesday only there was a closed in building, but they had vegetables and fruit and some things. My mother had a funny experience. We weren’t used to some of the words like “poke” and that, and the guy asked my mother if she wanted a poke when she got her groceries there, and she turned to my dad, and she said, “Fred, did you hear that?” My dad told her it was a paper bag, so that was one of the funny experiences we had.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That might have been at the Farmer’s Market?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have any visitors that visited the family during those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, my grandmother came down, and we had to meet her at the gate. We had to go out to the gate to get her. She came from, I guess—did she come on the bus or the train? It seems to me it was trains in those days, and she had to fill out some papers, and they gave her a temporary badge while she was here visiting. Then my grandfather on the other side, he came for a visit, and my mother’s two brothers, they came for a visit, and they all had to have temporary badges while they were here.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they remark about the city, or do you recall?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, they thought it was—they said it seemed so small, you know, because it was small, you know. There was a lot of people here at that time, but a lot of people were coming in to work from other cities, as far as Morristown I was thinking of, and those little towns and come every day to here to work.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about other housing in Oak Ridge, trailers and hutments?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, there was a trailer court out there in Midtown. I was trying to think. It was out there where the telephone company now has a building, and that was some business like a gas station, I believe, and a little store. I can’t think of the name of it, but it was very popular place, and the trailers were behind there. That way I imagine where the museum is now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember trailer parks by where the high school is today on the Turnpike?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right. That was before the high school, yes. It was—I never did go much to the trailers. I have no idea why I never went to those trailers or to that area, maybe I had nobody there to visit.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about flat tops? Did you ever go in a flat top?
MRS. JOHNSON: I ended up in a flat top with my husband when we had our first child, and that was an interesting experience.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, we’ll get to that in a minute. Let’s go back a little bit. When did you meet your husband?
MRS. JOHNSON: In ’45.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And you related that he was a MP guard out at the gate you went through.
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me how that took place.
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, there was—I ended up with a reduction in force out at the plant, and we could have went for more training. I was doing Alpha work, and they were going to change all the Alpha to Beta, and I didn’t want to go to school to learn the Beta, so I took retirement, and I went to work for the Army in the Army PX as a bookkeeper, and now they don’t call them that, but that’s what I was called then, and once in a while I’d fill in, out in the PX selling merchandise, and the PX was losing money, and they couldn’t figure out why that was every weekend they’d lose like $1,000.00 in money or merchandise, and they couldn’t figure out how, and I got to talking to the lieutenant, Lt. Foltz. Captain Ayers was in charge of the PX, and Lt. Foltz was his assistant, and I told him. I said, “Why don’t you keep track of your registers over the weekends and see if you can find out if it’s going through there or not?” And so I opened my big mouth, and I got the job.
Every weekend I was going in and just quickly doing inventory, just not a lot of records or anything, just seeing what has been depleted and, you know, what hasn’t been touched, and I kept finding out that the Tide was disappearing over the weekend and the hose, and there was a couple of main things that everybody wanted so much, and that’s what was disappearing over the weekend out of the store part of the PX, and so I told Lt. Foltz about it , and I said, “Somebody is helping themself to a lot of merchandise”, because we had—and I was pretty good at math—I could say we had so much of that Tide on Friday, and then, when we came back in on Monday, it was down too, and I gave him what I thought was a guess of the amount and then with some of the other things that I had seen, and so they had some way or other they got somebody to come in over the weekend and hide in the building, and thank God they didn’t ask me. I’d have been scared to death. Anyway, and they found out the manager, this Mack whatever his name was, he had a bedroom right in the building, a little small corner room, and that’s where he slept and lived. And they checked that out, and they found he had stacked in there the Tide and the hose and a lot of other stuff, and they caught him on the weekend letting a guy come into the PX and get all this stuff, and then they found out there was a penny arcade in Clinton, and that’s where the stuff was going to, and so I got a lot of thanks for helping them solve it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, where was the PX located?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was across from St. Mary’s.
MR. HUNNICUTT: On the Turnpike?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That’s about where CVS is today maybe?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, what was in the… You say PX, tell me what that is.
MRS. JOHNSON: That’s a servicemen’s grocery store, and also it was a bar. There was a bar they could come and drink and had tables, and they’d have music on radio or something, not live music, and a lot of the servicemen would come there at night and have parties and get-togethers. One half of it was the store, and not only groceries. They had toothpaste, toothbrushes, and everything, and then the other half was the liquor.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That was for military people only?
MRS. JOHNSON: But they could bring in a --
MR. HUNNICUTT: Civilians?
MRS. JOHNSON: -- civilians anytime they wanted, but civilians just didn’t come there and shop. It was only for the military and the same with the bar. The military could bring in their friends that were not in the military, but it was a military bar.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now you were leading up to how you met your husband when you talked about the PX.
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, I was coming home from riding the horses one day on the bus, and Virgil and his buddy were on the bus. I guess they were going probably to the PX maybe, and I was going home, but anyway he said “hi” to me, and I’d never seen him before, and then he went back and sat with his buddy, and he told me he asked his buddy if he knew who I was, and the guy said, “Yeah, she works down at the PX”, and told him my name, so Virgil came in the PX to meet me, and that’s when I first went on a date with him. You know what the date was? To walk from the PX down to—what was that little food place on the Turnpike?—Snow White, and we went there and had some coffee and something sweet to eat, and then he walked me all the way up to the house, to my home, and then he had to walk back to catch a ride or something to the barracks that was way out West End.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall where the Snow White was located?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, it was right across from where the hospital is, is where the Snow White used to be, and George Warne used to have something to do with the Snow White, and then he had a cleaning business right there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Next door to the Snow White?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right close to it anyway, I don’t know.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the name of the cleaning business?
MRS. JOHNSON: I thought it was…I remember Philpot’s, but that wasn’t his. It was after he gave up his business. Philpot took over. Warne’s?
MR. HUNNICUTT: New York Avenue Cleaners?
MRS. JOHNSON: New York Avenue, right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Talking about Philpot Cleaners, where were they located?
MRS. JOHNSON: You mean after? They were in the same place Warne’s was. I think they just took it over.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now the Snow White, did they have curb service?
MRS. JOHNSON: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall what it looked like inside?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, it was booths. As you go in the door, there were booths on both sides of the doors, and then they had a counter with some stools on it also. Gosh, that was a long time ago.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you visit the Snow White --
MRS. JOHNSON: Often.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- many more times?
MRS. JOHNSON: Often. (Laughter)
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was that a gathering place for young people?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, sort of. Some of them would think it was for the old folks, but it wasn’t. They liked the food, but the kids gathered there a lot.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was your next job after working at the PX?
MRS. JOHNSON: That was it until I was married and had a child. We had the Downtown, open Downtown Mall, and I had a friend who had an accident, and she had a little hat shop, hats and gloves and scarves and everything, just accessories for women, and she couldn’t work for about three months, and she asked me to manage her store for her, and I did. It was lots of fun.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When Jackson Square was the main shopping center of Oak Ridge, do you recall some of the department stores that was located there?
MRS. JOHNSON: (Laughter) Yes, just before you said that I thought of it, and now it’s gone. There was, oh, the same was in Knoxville, Watson’s was one.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Before Watson’s there was Loveman’s?
MRS. JOHNSON: Loveman’s, and was Miller’s there also? No, Miller’s was in the open mall, I think.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Miller’s before Loveman’s?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was that a store that had clothing and all --
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- essentials like that?
MRS. JOHNSON: And near it was a sportsman’s store that Whitman’s owned, and he and his son ran that and his wife too, and when the father died the son took over.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the Music Box?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And what was that?
MRS. JOHNSON: That was a place where they sold records and all kinds of music and music boxes and all those kinds of things and, in the olden days, not tape players but record machines. They sold those. I can’t even think of what we called them back then.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall where it was located?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, on the corner of Broadway and I can’t think of that side street now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about dancing on the tennis courts. What do you remember about that?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, it was fun. I guess we ruined our shoes, but it was lots of fun, and I mean it was so crowded we’d bump into each other all the time. There was so many people that went there, and it was a good outlet, and a lot of older people liked it too that still danced, but a lot of the young people. We didn’t miss it for anything, and I was dating a serviceman, not Virgil, another fellow at that time, and we didn’t miss a dance. We were there every time they had a dance.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How often did they have dancing?
MRS. JOHNSON: At least once a week.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have to pay?
MRS. JOHNSON: You know, I don’t remember. Maybe it was because I didn’t pay.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they have any refreshments at the dances or just music and dancing?
MRS. JOHNSON: When they had them inside, they had some machines in the recreation building, as we called it then, and that was when Pollock would play the music, and kids would come after school there, and they had big dances there because the Army Engineers had some of their big dances in that building, and I was there every dance. It was lots of fun.
MR. HUNNICUTT: This was the Rec Hall in the Jackson Square on Broadway?
MRS. JOHNSON: Jackson Square, right across from the Alexander.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You’re referring to the Alexander that was the Guesthouse, I believe, in those days?
MRS. JOHNSON: The Guesthouse, yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was this Bill Pollock that --
MRS. JOHNSON: Bill Pollock.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- that you’re referring to?
MRS. JOHNSON: Uh-huh.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did he pipe the music into the tennis courts, or did they have live bands when you had dances?
MRS. JOHNSON: They had taped music, and I think he did all those. I don’t remember. Now, they might have had a special dance once or twice and had music in, live music, but most of the time it was Pollock.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Let me ask you about where you were when you heard about them dropping the bomb on Japan in 1945.
MRS. JOHNSON: I was at the skating rink.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they announce that, that had happened?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was your thoughts?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, I was surprised because I didn’t know we were making a bomb. That’s when they got that picture of me on that car because we had this big parade in Oak Ridge, and this reporter from the Sentinel came to the skating rink, or he had been there or something, and we all heard it, and he said would you like to get in the parade, and we girls said, “Sure”. We all had these little short skirts on, you know, and our skates, and he said, “Keep your skates on”, and he got four of us to get on this car and get in the parade, and it was lots of fun, but kind of dangerous sitting on that—and, of course, they had the fenders, you know, that was easy to sit on and that, so we had a lot of fun with that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Let’s talk a little bit about the parade. That was in March of 1949 when they opened the gates to the city.
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, well that was a different one.
MR. HUNNICUTT: A different parade?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah that was—this other one was in VJ Day (inaudible).
MR. HUNNICUTT: So, where did the parade on that particular day, where did it start?
MRS. JOHNSON: I think that it—I have the feeling that it started at the West End and went east, and the reason I think that is because this fellow was out at the West End starting to form it. Is your time up?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Ok, I was confused of which parade you were talking about. So, we had a VJ parade?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right, and that was before the opening of the gates.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So, in March of 1949 they opened the gates to the public or the world.
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about that day?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, it was a crazy, crazy day. Everybody was so crowded, and they had these actors and actresses here, and it just seemed like it did something to the city or to me because this actor, I know you’re familiar with who he was, he got drunk, and that wasn’t a good sight for any of us to see. You know, we just weren’t used to that, and people were wild like they were crazy, and I was afraid I’d get crushed in this crowd, so I kept moving back and moving back, and I was with my husband, but it was like the world was going nuts. That’s the way I felt.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where were you standing when you observed the parade?
MRS. JOHNSON: Out at the East End near Elza Gate.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So you went to the gate opening ceremonies. --
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: -- at the East End?
MRS. JOHNSON: But we didn’t go right up in the front where all that was going. We—I kept going further back and further back to get away from the crowd. It was so hectic.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember seeing the explosion of the ribbon?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I don’t remember that because I was far enough back that I couldn’t see it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you get out there to the gate opening?
MRS. JOHNSON: I think we drove.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you attend any of the other activities during the gate opening ceremonies?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I didn’t. I just, as I said, it bothered me for some reason. I don’t know. I wasn’t that happy about the gate opening. I thought it was great having the city, you know, protected like it was and all the fences and everything. I had gotten used to that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So you felt safe living here?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now, you’ve met your husband, and where did you all go on dates?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, we went to the skating rink or to the movies or to go out to eat, once in a while to Knoxville, but not a whole lot.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was your husband a military person?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did he work for the Army?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And what was his job?
MRS. JOHNSON: He was one of the MP guards of the city.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So when you two got married, he was still in the Army?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, he had just gotten out when we got married.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the year you got married?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, it was ’46.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And where did you get married?
MRS. JOHNSON: In, gosh I can’t even think—we went away with another couple down to Georgia, and this Mr. French down there that everybody talked about, he’d married everybody, and I think he was one of them that married us down in Georgia. Rossville, Georgia and came home and was afraid to face my folks.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So how did you --
MRS. JOHNSON: They had already planned to have a wedding at home in the house and everything, and I had to come home and face them, and I wouldn’t let Virgil come in. I told him to go back to the barracks, and I went in, and I told them, and, oh, my folks were mad. Oh, they just couldn’t believe I’d do that. I was always the goodie girl, you know, and not do something like run off and get married.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How old were you?
MRS. JOHNSON: I was—I’m trying to think—that should be an easy date to remember. I think I was 19, and he was 23.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So, where did you first live?
MRS. JOHNSON: With my mother and dad for a few months, and then we got a place out at the East End of town.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the street?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, I did. (Laughter) It’s off of Alabama. The street runs the same as the Turnpike, and it was the first street up from the Turnpike, a little flat top.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the house number?
MRS. JOHNSON: Arrowwood Lane. I think it was 115.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me about a flat top. Describe what that looks like.
MRS. JOHNSON: It was a little box, and it was up off the ground on stakes of some kind or that, and I remember what worried me was in the bedroom was a little door in the wall, and that was an escape door in case of fire or anything, and everything was square, the square house, the square rooms, and the square windows, and we called them a cracker box, but we had lots of fun there. (Laughter) We had our first child there, and I’d walk from out at Arrowwood all the way back up to Georgia pushing the baby in the stroller and thought it was fun.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of heat did you have in the flat top?
MRS. JOHNSON: We had a little stove, a potbellied stove, that we’d put coal in, I believe, if I’m not mistaken, and it was in the center of the house, and it kept us warm. Don’t ever remember it being cold. Of course, we didn’t live there too long, and we moved into another flat top out at the West End.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was the street?
MRS. JOHNSON: That one was Robertsville Road.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the house number?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, no.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was it the same size flat top?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, it was bigger. It was a two bedroom, that one. The other one was a one bedroom, and we weren’t there too long. We bought a little house up off Malta Road off of Michigan, and that was a two bedroom A house.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did the second flat top have a little escape door that you could get out of?
MRS. JOHNSON: I don’t remember it in that one.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The A house on Malta, do you remember the house number?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yeah, 104.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me what an A house is.
MRS. JOHNSON: An A house is a two bedroom cemesto with one bath and a coal room and a furnace room with a furnace, and you’d put coal into it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was this the same setup as your C house that you used to live in with a coal room?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned cemesto. What is that?
MRS. JOHNSON: Cemesto, that’s the building material they used. It’s two pieces of slate with the cemesto inside of it, and it’s a very good building product to keep a nice, warm house. I was amazed at how they ever came up with that material.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Now did you, did the family have an automobile at that time?
MRS. JOHNSON: Oh, yes. Everybody had, in the family, had an automobile.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned your first child was born at the other flat top. He was born in Oak Ridge Hospital?
MRS. JOHNSON: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the year?
MRS. JOHNSON: ’47.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall, when you were in the hospital at Oak Ridge, did you have good care?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, I had an experience. There was a section of the hospital called West Mall or something. It was on New York and Tennessee, and I ended up with, what was called, like roseola or something, and it was serious for a woman that was pregnant to have that for fear that it would hurt the child, so I had to stay in a special wing of that hospital for a couple months, and nobody could come and visit me. They could come outside the building and look through the window, and that was all for two months, and that was tough, but otherwise other than that it was a very bare hospital, military, and all military doctors. My doctor was in the service, and quite a few of them that took different parts of our family like the eye doctor and the kids doctor, all of them was, you know, servicemen.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, where did you do your grocery shopping when you lived in the flat top on the West End?
MRS. JOHNSON: There was a grocery store out there, but I believe I came back to Jackson Square to shop.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The house on Malta, the A cemesto, did you continue to shop in the Jackson Square area then?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I changed and went down to the A & P store, which was somewhere across from St. Mary’s Church in that area.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Off of the Turnpike?
MRS. JOHNSON: And it was there for quite a few years, the A & P. It was a good store.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of work was your husband into at that time?
MRS. JOHNSON: He was in the Chemical Department at K-25.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was that his first job he got after getting out of the Army?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, no, there was another one. He went in the Guard Department first and wasn’t in there too long, and then he transferred to the Chemistry Department, and that was out at K-25, and then later he went to X-10 and worked in the isotope field as an isotope sales correspondent.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember any rolling stores that went through the town and would sell produce and things out of the back of the trucks?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, but it’s very faint. I seem to remember them down there on the Turnpike, but I can’t remember exactly where.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about after you got married, what kind of activities social-wise was you and your husband involved in?
MRS. JOHNSON: We were in a lot of different dance clubs. We were in square dance, round dance, round dance, ballroom dancing, Latin dancing. Every one of these were clubs, and we both bowled and belonged to the bowling organization as officers, and what else we did? We were so busy. We went camping every summer with our kids. We rented a lot out at Watt’s Bar that had a little building on it, and we put up a tent next to it for the kids to sleep in. We had a boat, and we did a lot of water skiing and some fishing.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you ever visit the American Museum of Atomic Energy?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes. It used to be out at the west end of town on, was it, Jefferson Avenue.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about the museum?
MRS. JOHNSON: (Laughter) I remember them pulling tricks on the little kids with the round ball, you know, that will make their hair stand up, but I thought it was very well done, and I was real proud of the people that put it together and kept it going. A lot of volunteers worked in that museum from when they first started it, and some of them still are working at it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When your husband was working, did you ever have any idea what he was doing at that time at the plant?
MRS. JOHNSON: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: K-25?
MRS. JOHNSON: No, I didn’t because he was working with isotopes, and that was still kind of quiet.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Your first child was that a boy or girl?
MRS. JOHNSON: A boy.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What’s his name?
MRS. JOHNSON: Randy.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And you have other children?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, I have another son, Donald, and then a daughter Amelia.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they attend the Oak Ridge school system?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes, all the way through.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What did you notice about their school years versus when you went to school? What as the differences?
MRS. JOHNSON: It was more structured for one thing, and I don’t think it was quite as relaxed as when I went to school. It was a little—they worked harder on improving the different ways of teaching. They would teach the kids to do like fast reading and a different type of math than what I did, and it was just more advanced.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did your children get to school?
MRS. JOHNSON: They rode the bus some, and then the rest of the time I drove them.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they have a particular—what was the dress like for the boys and girls in your family that went to school?
MRS. JOHNSON: They didn’t, I don’t ever remember the boys wearing jeans so much as they do now. They dressed a little bit better than now. Everybody wears jeans now, even we old ladies do, and in those days kids just dressed up more. It wasn’t quite dress like church, but just a little step under that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Has your children ever mentioned about the Oak Ridge school system and whether it really gave them a good education or mediocre?
MRS. JOHNSON: They thought it was good. They really did.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Your husband, Virgil, what kind of school background did he have?
MRS. JOHNSON: He graduated from high school in Urbana, Illinois, and then I don’t know if he went right into the service then or not, but he had some college up in Urbana-Champaign, and I’m trying to think what was his field because he ended up with a degree for chemistry. Boy, I get a blank.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Back to the house on Malta Road, where did you move to after that?
MRS. JOHNSON: Here on Georgia Avenue.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where we are today?
MRS. JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And you lived --
MRS. JOHNSON: We had bought that house, and sold it. We bought it from the government and then sold it and bought this one, and it was a larger house, and that’s what we wanted, and I wanted to be near my parents, which was right down the street. And my husband didn’t mind, which was very nice. He was a good man, and so, in fact, we moved in here in the fall, and just a month after we moved in here, my dad passed away, and so I was glad I was this close then.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall anything else about Oak Ridge that we haven’t talked about that you would like to talk about?
MRS. JOHNSON: Well, we had bought property out in the west end, out off of West Outer, and we were going to move there to a bigger house and nicer and all, and in the meantime we had a basement put under our house with a bedroom and a bath, and then I talked with a lot of my friends that lived out west, and I asked them about their neighborhoods and what kind of neighbors they had, and they all told me they didn’t know because they didn’t know their neighbors, and I don’t know whether it was because they were just doing so much, so busy, or whether people weren’t as friendly, or houses too far apart. I have no idea, but we mentioned to a couple of our neighbors that we thought about moving, and they said, “Oh, don’t move. Please don’t move.” So, we backed out on that, and now I’m so glad we did because now I’m in a small house, and I feel safe with neighbors I know, and I think it was a good decision.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, Betty, I thank you for your time, and it’s been my pleasure to interview you, and I think that your oral history will be really useful in the future for anyone wanting to know about how life was in Oak Ridge in the early days, so thank you very much.
MRS. JOHNSON: You’re welcome.
[End of Interview]
[Editor’s Note: Portions of this transcript have been edited at Mrs. Johnson’s request. The corresponding audio and video remain unchanged.]