Deist, there are (scientific) physical laws by which matter is governed, however science cannot tell you about the Force that set the laws, & continues to Govern them. They (scientists) accept the mass majority of the universe is made up of something they have termed ‘dark matter/energy’, however, believe me, they have no idea what it is!!!!!

A Muslim believes in the Unseen, hence needs not be perplexed like the scientists, who crave this knowledge for fame, & more importantly - ‘absolute power’. It is through their ignorance that they do not realise, absolute power can only ever be with Allah (SWT), Glorified is He, above all they associate in partner with Him.

Hence when I ask what is more important, the physical & it’s laws, or the Creator of the physical & it’s laws? It should be easy for a Muslim to answer. Allah (SWT), Created the universe as we know it for a purpose, and it is that purpose which dictates events, and not chance dictating the universe’s destination.

Greetings and peace,
The difference between scientists and religion when it comes to that "unseen" is not really that big.
Essentially it boils down to the point that the scientist will tell you
"i dont know and cant yet explain, my theory goes like this" while the
religious person will say "its God". But what exactly God is or how he
supposedly did it he cant explain either.

So in the end NEITHER knows, the difference is only that one makes a
claim and "ends the discussion with that claim", while the other doesnt.

It is of no use to simply claim that scientists would simply do that
because they followed their ego or because they want power. In the end
they are people like everybody else too.
And contrary to religion, science is based on verification and not on simple belief.

You already make a logical mistake when you simply assume that a force must be behind all that exists !
There is no conclusive proof for that either.

You said:
Says who? Are Atheists sufficiently well organized that one can attribute materialism to all of them? What
atheist leader has enunciated this position? Or are you, a non-atheist,attributing this? I just don't think the atheists are that well organized, or even interested, to say that. I think you are attributing
this to them for your own purposes.

My Comment:
Can you please tell me on what basis do atheists reject the existance of God if according to your knowledge and understanding all the atheists donot adhere to materialism?[/Blue}

You said:
Materialism is not contradictory to creation. The creator, after all, created a 'material' universe.

My Comment:
That’s what atheists believe in ,they believe that this entire universe including its components are material and they existed forever and they came into existence by coincidence.[/Blue]

You said:
Sure. Years ago the 'clockwork universe' was postulated as an alternative to chance. In which the universe operated like the inside of a watch, with all the gears and springs and escapements,which might look like a chaotic mess, but which produced a regular clock movement.

My Comment:
Well, the reason why the idea of Clockwise Universe has been introduced as an alternative to chance is because this idea sounds little rational as compared to the concept of chance which has been under argument and has been questioned by everyone .Years ago,I use to compare the time in the watch with the Universe,and it does seem similar since the function of the watch is just like the function of our systematic Universe in which all the galaxies are moving away from each other and the planets in our solar system move in a calculated and organized way.The Universe is expanding at constant acceleration and the difference of events which takes place when a Universe expands for example from one point (A) to point (B) indicates to the concept of time. The reason why they compare watch with Universe is because the movement of the needles inside the watch indicates the time ,in the similar way the movement of the expansion of the Universe,indicates time because time is a concept which is formed by comparing two different events or moments.But this idea also doesnot even support the beliefs of atheists due to the fact that even time came into existance and before time, their was nothing, no creation, no universe, nothing existed and all these things came into existance from nothingness. If atheists support this idea of clockwise Universe ,then they should ponder on the reality that existed before the creation of Universe.[/Blue]

You Said:
Atheism is not a belief but a disbelief, that is, an unwillingness to embrace a proposed belief. I don't think that if a Princess kisses a frog that it will turn into a handsome prince, but I don't have to contrive an explanation for my disbelief. I don't have to prove with argument and calculation and data that it's not possible for a frog to turn into a prince. Rather, the burden of proof is on the other side.

My Comment:
Before you said its a belief, now you say atheism is a disbelief, you change your mind several times.My deer ,you should know the difference between belief and disbelief. If atheism is a disbelief ,then what made you say that it is a belief?

I hope my points are clear.

Regards,
[/Blue]

who call themselves superior are actually inferior in the eyes of Allah.Those who call themselves slaves of Allah are superior not only in the eyes of Allah but also superior in the eyes of man.

Greetings and peace,The difference between scientists and religion when it comes to that "unseen" is not really that big.Essentially it boils down to the point that the scientist will tell you "i dont know and cant yet explain, my theory goes like this" while the religious person will say "its God". But what exactly God is or how he supposedly did it he cant explain either.

So in the end NEITHER knows, the difference is only that one makes a claim and "ends the discussion with that claim", while the other doesnt.

It is of no use to simply claim that scientists would simply do that because they followed their ego or because they want power. In the end they are people like everybody else too.And contrary to religion, science is based on verification and not on simple belief.

You already make a logical mistake when you simply assume that a force must be behind all that exists !There is no conclusive proof for that either.

PeaceDeist

Assalaamu Alaikum

Deist- Just to pick up on a couple of your points, firstly – “my theory goes like this", there is no need for theory, if you believe in Divine Revelation.

My below post in the ‘Qur’an & Sunnah’ section, illustrates that religious knowledge (contrary to your statement - “while the religious person will say "its God". But what exactly God is or how he supposedly did it he cant explain either”), does offer an explanation.

I would be most grateful if some of you are able to offer me some alternative translations of Ayat-ul-Kursi, as I currently only have one translation (by Muhammad Muhsin Khan & Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali) at hand, & it goes as follows:

Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyuum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains & protects all that exists). Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His permission? He knows what will happen to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter. And they will never encompass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

May I also please ask if anyone can verify the following explanation given with the Ayat, in the copy of the Qur’an I posses:

(V.2:255). Kursi – literally a footstool or chair, and sometimes wrongly translated as Throne. The Kursi mentioned in this Verse should be distinguished from the ‘Arsh (Throne) mentioned in V.7:54, 10:3, 85:15 and elsewhere. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: “The Kursi compared to the ‘Arsh is nothing but like a ring thrown out upon open space of desert.” If the Kursi extends over the entire universe, then how much greater is the ‘Arsh. Indeed Allah, the Creator of both the Kursi & the ’Arsh, is the Most Great.

Ibn Taimiyah said in the chapters:

a)To believe in the Kursi

b)To believe in the ‘Arsh (Throne)

It is narrated from Muhammad bin ‘Abdullah and from other religious scholars that the Kursi is in front of the ‘Arsh (Throne) and it is at the level of the feet. [Fatawa Ibn Taimiyah, Vol 5, Pages 54, 55].

You also stated – “And contrary to religion, science is based on verification and not on simple belief.” Well I have discovered (scientific style) evidence of the ‘Kursi’(a discovery I made before I embraced Islam). Evidence that I am so confident in; I have already approached scientific journals, international embassies (inc. the Saudi’s, Iranian’s, Chinese, Russians, and Israelis), and alike.

Guess what, they have all runaway from me!!!! Why do you think that is the case?

Yes they probably think I am crazy, however they thought such things about Prophet Muhammad (SAW). My opinion is that they do not wish to believe in Allah (SWT), hence they choose to remain in ignorance, even when the evidence is available.

I am not hiding, so please if you can find me a challenger on this issue, I am ready & waiting.

Deist- Just to pick up on a couple of your points, firstly – “my theory goes like this", there is no need for theory, if you believe in Divine Revelation.

Thats a logical fallacy. Because
"belief" is in the end also a "kind" of theory that you adhere too. The
difference is that belief needs no evidence and survives even evidence
against it while a true theory doesnt survive it without at least a
change.

My below post in the ‘Qur’an & Sunnah’ section, illustrates that religious knowledge (contrary to your statement - “while the religious person will say "its God". But what exactly God is or how he supposedly did it he cant explain either”), does offer an explanation.

I think we have different
understandings on what we call "explanation". THe passages you posted
below are postulations. They are so to speak "decorations" and give
more "details" about a general statement. But they do not really
explain.

You also stated – “And contrary to religion, science is based on verification and not on simple belief.” Well I have discovered (scientific style) evidence of the ‘Kursi’(a discovery I made before I embraced Islam).

I have made long studies about the
science and quran claims and i do not find it supported. But as said
earlier, thats not really important anyway as it is a religious book.
You should also consider by the way that even if there was some science
in the quran it wouldnt mean that the whole religion is based on
verification.

Guess what, they have all runaway from me!!!! Why do you think that is the case?

Yes
they probably think I am crazy, however they thought such things about
Prophet Muhammad (SAW). My opinion is that they do not wish to believe
in Allah (SWT), hence they choose to remain in ignorance, even when the
evidence is available.

I do not know why they have choosen
not to listen to you. My best guess would be to assume that they didnt
consider your arguments to be correct.The idea that people
ignore truth despite overwhelming evidence is rather improbable when it
comes to such things as eternal hell versus paradise ;)
It is of course very convenient to simply put people that dont believe into a drawer labeled "ignorance".

I am not hiding, so please if you can find me a challenger on this issue, I am ready & waiting.

What issue ? I do not see anything
scientific in the paragraphs you stated, nor do i see what proof this
should be or for what this should be proof.

Belief does not exist as an independent entity. A person believes only if what they believe in, bares fruit (whether it be spiritual or physical, in nature).

The science vs Divine debate, which is what this really is, dictates that a scientist seeks knowledge of existence, so he/she can ‘understand’/manipulate (physical) existence.

Belief in Divine Predestination dictates that a person seeks knowledge of how to please Allah (SWT), so that he/she can find true happiness (in this world & the Hereafter), via morality (the Laws of Islam).

“I think we have different understandings on what we call "explanation". THe passages you posted below are postulations. They are so to speak "decorations" and give more "details" about a general statement. But they do not really explain.”

“His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them.” (Holy Qur’an 2:255)

If Allah (SWT), the Force that sustains all that exists (Al-Hayyal-Qayyuum - the Ever Lasting, the One who Sustains & Protects All that exists), were to slip into slumber for the smallest fraction of a second, the whole universe would collapse….. I scientifically perceive the quote; I hope you may contemplate the matter further.

“You should also consider by the way that even if there was some science in the quran it wouldnt mean that the whole religion is based on verification.”

If you (from a scientific stance) have a need to verify everything (by science), you will miss the point of morality. Please tell me how science can verify how a man made law, passed by a government, will morally effect the population? It cannot, it can only guess (through carrying out surveys of a tiny proportion of the population).

“I do not know why they have choosen not to listen to you. My best guess would be to assume that they didnt consider your arguments to be correct.The idea that people ignore truth despite overwhelming evidence is rather improbable when it comes to such things as eternal hell versus paradise ;)It is of course very convenient to simply put people that dont believe into a drawer labeled "ignorance".”

Ha haa, well you see I haven’t actually given them any of the evidence (that would be rather stupid of me), all I have done is told them that I have discovered something which unifies the forces, scientists have been trying to unify for years. However, intellectual pride comes to mind. What would it mean to all their pompous scientific research, if a person from the street could walk in and solve something, they could not?

The forces I refer to are - electro magnetism, nuclear, (so called) atom glue, and gravity (general relativity). These forces are not independent of each other; One Force, Allah (SWT), controls them.

I can see what is happening in that; there are people like Stephen Hawkins who are using science as a means to get people to worship them. Did you know he has laid claim to a form of radiation, which we are told emanates from black holes, and called it – ‘Hawkin radiation’!

“They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah, and Messiah, son of Maryam, while they were commanded to worship none but One ilah, La ilaha illa Huwa. Glorified is He from having the partners they associate (with Him).”Holy Qur’an 9:31

Narrated by Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi, & Ibn Jarir: Once while Allah’s Messenger (SAW) was reciting the Verse (9:31) ‘Abi bin Hatim said, “O’Allah’s Messenger! They do not worship them. Allah’s Messenger(SAW) said, “They certainly do. They made lawful things as unlawful, and unlawful things as lawful, and they followed them: and by doing so they really worshipped them”. (Tafsir At-Tabari, Vol. 10)

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