KomissarBojanchev wrote:To the claim that bustles are worse because they're exposed to enemy fire: wouldn't that be irrelevant because even if the ammo is hit and a cookoff happens its of no danger to the crew(separate the ammo from them and channels the blast away from them) unlike if it cooks off in the hull?

That is a concern, because if the ammo blows up in the bustle which is right above the engine compartment you will cause a destroyed or severly damaged engine, which will leave you a sitting duck without ammunition to shoot back and they eventually will destroy you anway, so that is a concern for crew saftey.

You describe exactly why they make the tank salvageable. Good luck salvaging something out of a cooked off turret.

The Tiger and Tiger 2 were both failures on different niveaus.Both had design flaws that were impossible to solve during war time and even after war time to many design flaws with the engine compartment, transmission like gearbox arrangement, to weak engine which was already obvious before the tank was constructed due the weight, instead of using slat armor on Tiger 1 it became an unnecessary behemoth that was to heavy and comprimized mobility with unnecessary armor which it could achieve with less armor=weight by just making a sloped design, the electric and hydraulic systems were inpractical and made troubles due heat and even could caught fire from own heat generated of the engine.

They were bad in mobility which terminates already one important factor of the three main attributes which makes tanks effective (mobility, firepower and protection), it wasn't really great armor just lot of it in a very primitive design which further downgrades the attribute and the Firepower was just that the entire tank was constructed around the 8.8cm instead of gowing for a tank design were everything matches with each other, no it was the gun and the rest was designed around the gun, nothing someone should ever do.

Mike E wrote:The T2 was the definition of a failure GarryB. It had terrible protection for its weight, thanks to crappy armor, was slow as %$@&, would break down probably once a day etc... The whole thing was a giant mess that only Hitler ever wanted. I was talking about the T2 when I said "drive off of the asphalt". - Which is a reference for "off-roading" anyway.

You have severely misunderstood Garry's point for quite a long time.

Let me restated it in a clearer way.

The USSR want T-10 to have the role which the Tiger 2 is expected to do and of course do not have the shortcomings of Tiger 2.

Hitler want the Tiger 2 to be ABC but Tiger 2 was a failure. The USSR want the T-10 to be ABC like Hitler want, and they want it to be successful, not a failure like Tiger 2.

In other words Hitler wanted to do ABC but he failed. And the USSR also wanted to do ABC and they wanted to be successful, not failed like Hitler, OK ?

Clear ?

Now back to the T-10.

Weight: 52 tonnes, much lighter than Tiger 2 (70 tonnes) and even lighter than Tiger 1 (54 tonnes). Cotemporat US M103 is 59 tonnes and UK Conqueror is 66 tones.

Speed: 42 km/h, very fast in that time because most medium tank in that time were only 40-50km/h. Conqueror is 34km/h, M103 is 37km/h. The old Tiger 1 and 2 is about the same speed. That means T-10 is comparable to most contemporary mediums and is much faster than contemporary heavys.

Protection: frontal armour 120-200mm, comparable to other heavy tanks. And superior to Tiger 2 although T-10 is lighter.

Armament: 122mm gun. Conqueror and M103 used 120mm gun, comparable.

So what do you think ?

Mike E wrote:I'm sure there are many, but a quick tank could (deja vu it) easily approach it, get within range, and fire before the T-10 could even see it.....

What do you think about the number of T-10 the USSR will deployed in the battlefield to engage the enemy threat ? And what do you think about the position that the USSR will deployed ?

Do you sincerely think that light and medium tanks at that time can outmaneuver the T-10 to hit it in the rear and weak points ? I mean a who team of T-10 are waiting for them, not single, unorganized T-10.

Mike E wrote:The T2 was the definition of a failure GarryB. It had terrible protection for its weight, thanks to crappy armor, was slow as %$@&, would break down probably once a day etc... The whole thing was a giant mess that only Hitler ever wanted. I was talking about the T2 when I said "drive off of the asphalt". - Which is a reference for "off-roading" anyway.

The USSR want T-10 to have the role which the Tiger 2 is expected to do and of course do not have the shortcomings of Tiger 2.

Hitler want the Tiger 2 to be ABC but Tiger 2 was a failure. The USSR want the T-10 to be ABC like Hitler want, and they want it to be successful, not a failure like Tiger 2.

In other words Hitler wanted to do ABC but he failed. And the USSR also wanted to do ABC and they wanted to be successful, not failed like Hitler, OK ?

Clear ?

Now back to the T-10.

Weight: 52 tonnes, much lighter than Tiger 2 (70 tonnes) and even lighter than Tiger 1 (54 tonnes). Cotemporat US M103 is 59 tonnes and UK Conqueror is 66 tones.

Speed: 42 km/h, very fast in that time because most medium tank in that time were only 40-50km/h. Conqueror is 34km/h, M103 is 37km/h. The old Tiger 1 and 2 is about the same speed. That means T-10 is comparable to most contemporary mediums and is much faster than contemporary heavys.

Protection: frontal armour 120-200mm, comparable to other heavy tanks. And superior to Tiger 2 although T-10 is lighter.

Armament: 122mm gun. Conqueror and M103 used 120mm gun, comparable.

So what do you think ?

Mike E wrote:I'm sure there are many, but a quick tank could (deja vu it) easily approach it, get within range, and fire before the T-10 could even see it.....

What do you think about the number of T-10 the USSR will deployed in the battlefield to engage the enemy threat ? And what do you think about the position that the USSR will deployed ?

Do you sincerely think that light and medium tanks at that time can outmaneuver the T-10 to hit it in the rear and weak points ? I mean a who team of T-10 are waiting for them, not single, unorganized T-10.

I've known that...

Got it, but that doesn't make it relevant. The reason I'm bugging GarryB over the T2, is because his wording makes it seem like he suggests it is comparable to the T2.

Very clear....

Yep, but that isn't a good excuse for, an excuse... I've been over this before, I'm talking about the T-10's weight, on the Tiger's or M103's etc. (Notice something here? All these heavy-tanks were a failure!)

But still slower than the tanks it would defend... 42 kph is OK at best, but it isn't impressive to say the least... The M103 etc were even worse, but then again, they were heaver and just as much if not more so of a failure. As of right now, you and GarryB are comparing a failure (T-10), to a failure (M103), just to prove that the failure (T-10) isn't a failure... How does that work? - Gotta' give me props for that one...

Superior to the T2 because the T2 used some cheap #@$% armor that was produced by workers (not to get controversial here, "Holocaust" and all) who couldn't produce %#&@... Once again, you are comparing a failure to the failure of all failures, which directly contradicts your point that the T-10 wasn't a failure... For its weight, the T-10 didn't have remarkable protection, shown wonderfully by BD in that video...

Very comparable, and I never said otherwise... This is just so funny... The gun itself was OK, but could have been much better with an upgraded design of some sort.

WW2 much? The Germans has very large numbers of tanks, and the M18 would still sneak up behind them routinely. At least this is backed up by history.......

Comparing M18 & M36 TDs to a late 1950s heavy tank? REALLY? God... M18 was a piece of crap, crews hated it, the top speed was not as advertised (it was roughly limited to 50 kph on road, 35 off), it was fuel hungry, easily flammable, extremely uncomfortable, noisy, loud, and easily destroyed by anything, even MG42 would knock it out.

M18 is so "glorious" in muricans mind today because it is remembered as a rocket fast "tank" (it wasn't at all), thanks to the trials and promoting in 1943... It's considered good because it was used properly several notable times, and turned the tide of several battles... It was a good ambush vehicle, and a good infantry support vehicule, with great awareness. (open...) But it was too fragile and just crap, after ww2 USA scrapped or sent abroad all M18, but kept M4A3E8 until mid 50s.

Keep dreaming, hellcat was lame in 1945, it would have been utterly ridiculous in 1960.

M36 were better overall, and kept in many armies up to the 90s... 90mm ammo was made and exported a long time during cold war, and i'm pretty sure M3 gun was able to use M47 / M48 ammo. It was excellent support vehicle, and TD in ww2, but as TD, it was useless vs T-44, 54, IS-3 and all later "bad guys" tanks. M36 had armour, reliability and punch vs M18.

But claiming any of the two would kill T-10 is bogus, 90mm can't penetrate T-10 frontally, at all, even the later M36/M41 guns used on M47/M48 pattons with newest ammo, it would have done nothing, even APDS and HEAT, as demonstrated vs egyptians IS-3 in 1973, when M48 of IDF had to close in and flank them, accounts talk about 500m flank shots failing to penetrate... U think the L7 was developped for nothing after the discover of the T-54 in budapest (1956)? No, it was made because UK 20pdr and US 90mm guns were not enough, imagine vs T-10(M)...

On sides, 90mm would fail to penetrate at up to 60° angle (or 30° from perfect perpendicular shot), just look armour scheme of IS-3 and T-10 please....

And keep in mind your precious M36 jackson would mostly use APCBC with 160mm penetration at 100m, not the fancy APDS, APCR or HEAT.

I won't even mention the 76mm gun on the hellcat, with 180mm APCR maximum, it was utterly useless. Of course, the lucky shot, or odd side/rear ambush shot could kill a T-10, but tanks do not operate in void, or alone.... T-10 units would consist of 31 tanks, supported by other forces.

Then you say hellcat/jackson would be better "breaktrhough" "tanks" than T-10 because of some imaginary better speed? LOL. Primitive machines, open toped, with bullet proof armour (not even true for hellcat), shitty guns with no FCS or stabilization whatsoever... slow turret speed... Are you insane? T-10M with 2 axis stabilised gun (most powerful gun in the world along with US M58 and UK L1 and L11), night vision, excellent aim systems, totally enclosed sloped heavy tank armour (250-320mm frontal armour LOS roughly, and also true for +40° aspect of each side), good range, reliable and barely less speedy than a medium tank like T-54, more than centurion, and with fantastic passability (more than T-54), operated by elite crews in well organised units inside a proper doctrine... Please, try harder.

Read this about the "marvellous" hellcat.... http://tankarchives.blogspot.fr/2014/03/lend-lease-impressions-m18-hellcat.htmlhttp://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/351511-realistically-hellcat-or-jackson/

And stop trying to find faults to the early T-10 vs T-10M to justify your points, as I said already, production was mostly T-10M....... 1539 were built:360 T-10, T-10A and T-10B between 1953 and 1957... Most of which were later rebuilt as T-10M1179 T-10M and T-10MK between 1958 and 1965 !

source: http://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2013-03/1362299438_14.jpg

It seems the T-10M was liked and mass produced to fullfill a doctrinal need. T-10M were thus spear heads of soviet tank forces up to the early 1970s when T-64A replaced them, but T-10M stayed in service up to the last days of USSR, active and ready at least up to 1980. "So few" were produced vs T-54/55 because it was very expensive, and advanced, and just they needed this number for several elite units, only for domestic use, never intended for export......

Like it or not, T-10M had better armour than the chieftain, a comparable gun, and similar or better mobility. Chieftain had better aspects, like fire control and internal space... but it speaks about the potential of T-10M, which was itself way better than M103 and Conqueror (mostly in mobility, logistics and reliability) FYI, chieftain armour (MK2, 1966) was 80mm glacis / 76mm lower hull, 150mm turret (with sick angles making it 300-350 LOS), and pathetic 38mm side armour (ww2 37/45mm guns penetrate this at 500m... )........ T-10M had 120mm glacis and lower hull forming a pike nose, side armour, i'm not sure, but upper hull is very angled 80 or 90mm (150 LOS at least, and this is with perpendicular perfection shot, with front aspect, it's unpenetrable), lower hull is 80 or 60mm, straight, but it's still twice better than chieftain. Granted chieftain has some sort of skirts, but... Turret of T-10M is 250mm thick up front, quite think all around.

According to its capabilities, T-10M was a MBT. Oh, and It wasn't 52t, sorry.... 51.5t. Please, how "light" is a standard british army centurion of 1960? or a M48A1? This tank was thus probably the first real MBT in 1958.

Blacktaildefense sparky sparks miky mike whatever the fu/k is his name, is a retard. He proved nothing, his videos on the T-10 are retarded child work, and it's been 6 pages of proving it already. Admire him as much as you want, he is plain wrong on this case, maybe he did some good work, and he his quite entertaining, but on T-64 (which he claims production lasted something like 3 years XD), T-62 and T-10, he totally failed and parroted clownery from western propaganda.

GarryB wrote:With the three photos posted above, the first one has a bicycle riding past and the other two are clearly in city streets during some sort of uprising.

Urban combat would be places you would send your most heavily armoured vehicles, but as they are breakthrough tanks their lack of range would require long range fuel tanks to be fitted.

There are clearly two types... one with single fuel drums and one with two fuel drums, both of which would likely be ditched when the combat area was reached.

Most of the photos I have seen did not show external fuel tanks, these ones shown likely during the Hungarian uprising or something similar does not change that.

T-10M didn't even exist in 1956, it was T-44, T-34-85, T-54, IS-3, mostly, used in this uprising. One captured (by hungarian resistants/terrorists/depends on your location) T-54 was driven into UK embassy, creating panic because the armour was simply unheard of for a medium tank, while they felt confident at home with their centurions. Lead more or less to 105mm L7 gun.

IS-3 proved unvaluable in blowing up entire buildings with massive 122mm HE shells, a handfull were lost (to cocktail molotovs and ammo blow up). Most casualties were T-34-85.

The photos I showed are from the 1968 czech-slovak uprising, but it was not a massive fight like 1956... Soviet army deployed nearest forces, including T-10M regiments (proving once more that they served near the border of NATO as spear heads), T-55, T-54, Su-122-54, and maybe T-62 (not sure).

T-10M would have caused a hell in city fighting, and be totally imune to local "AT weapons". Soviet forces use those disposable fuel tanks on all tanks, T-10M was no exception, it increases autonomy by 100% basically (if you have all of them)... Of course they are not linked to internal fuel system, one must pump it into the system manually, with simple mecanical pump stored inside any of the storage bins. The driver can discard them in a second using a cable, if they are assaulted. They are placed on multipurpose device usually where you place MDSH smoke canisters, also activated by the cable. This practice was up to T-62 and early T-64, later tanks having dedicated fuel drums places and turret mounted 82mm smoke mortars.

On the T-10M (or any T-10) you can spot 2 built in rectangular tanks at the back of the overtrack, they are external fuel tanks, there is several option, i'm not sure.... might be 2 linked external fuel tanks, or non linked, either fuel or oil filled reserves.

@Mike: Personally I don't think Hellcat is suitable for the job assigned to T-10, even if T-10 is not 100% suitable.

T-10 breakthrough role, like other heavy tanks, demands the tank to stay quite close to the enemy frontline and continously engage the enemy forces for long time. It's not like you bombard the enemy line from far far away like artilerry or hide in cover like ambush. In such prerssure you need decent armour, and if you see T-10 is not sufficent and there is no way Hellcat is.

For me the T-10 speed is satisfactory because it is comparable even to the medium tanks of that time and T-10 were not assigned to exploited the hole in the enemy line therefore lightning speed is uneccessary.

Hellcat speed can be used for something else but not for the task assigned to T-10 and not for counter-attack against organized T-10s who are opening fire to break your line.

I don't think even with the speed of Hellcat it can outmanever and hit the weakpoints of a whole organized unit of T-10. And against frontal armour of T-10, Hellcat can hardly do anything before T-10 blasts it away with one hit.

You can propose a stronger engine and better armour for T-10s if you see they are inadequate but Hellcat is not the solution.

T-10 retired when T-64 and T-72 entered service because they have better armour, stronger firepower with lighter weight and faster speed. But in 195x and 196x the T-10 was still useful and had a role in the contemporary doctrine.

A big gun and lump of armor (lots of it , but it was spread out around the large body of the tank) isn't going to do this role by itself...

They are the perfect combination for a tank to stand off at a distance and pick off enemy vehicles and bunker emplacements.

Speed, at the very least, quickens the process and lowers the chance of getting hit by a possibly very-close-range enemy vehicle.

Firing from 2km distance means enemy shots will not penetrate... speed would make the T-10 pointless because it might avoid being hit by moving fast but it is not going to hit anything while moving fast either... and if it can't hit anything there is no point.

Its size would screw it over in the bad conditions that one could have expected in WW3 (during the Cold War). Had they made it more compact (keep in mind with a more usable design), with more power, less weight (doesn't have to be dramatic mind you), and kept the 122 mm (at the very leas), it would've been able to complete its role much better.

It was about 40cm wider than a T-54 and about the same height... which made it a good half metre shorter than a Centurion... your claims it was too big just don't stack up.

It wasn't a KV-2.

The T2 was the definition of a failure GarryB. It had terrible protection for its weight, thanks to crappy armor, was slow as %$@&, would break down probably once a day etc... The whole thing was a giant mess that only Hitler ever wanted. I was talking about the T2 when I said "drive off of the asphalt". - Which is a reference for "off-roading" anyway.

You are not listening... I said they wanted a tank to perform the same role as the T II... I repeat They didn't want a T II they wanted a heavily armoured and armed tank as a breakthrough tank.

I'm sure there are many, but a quick tank could (deja vu it) easily approach it, get within range, and fire before the T-10 could even see it.....

Really? So why were there no really light tanks produced after WWII... except the Leopard I, which is widely considered a failure?

Maybe they were idiots back then (/s). Who knows... Why does the US keep the M1 in service?

Gotta do something with their nuclear waste.

A similar role.... So, it would break down and get stuck in mud... That's the role? Be more specific.

So you don't even know what their roles were but you still think they are failures.

BTW you don't know much about mud if you criticise a vehicle for getting stuck... the only vehicle that can traverse mud safely is called a hovercraft.

Sure it could rip it to shreds... But the M18 (with the larger gun) would use speed to its advantage.... Either way, the 90 mm gun could penetrate 8.5 inches of RHA at one kilometer....

Assuming it doesn't just bounce off the angled plate.

No tank can outrun a tank shell.

Which is basically the same thing... Like I said, later in the war, the US used the M18 as a breakthrough tank to go before the Sherman's etc.

Speed is a poor armour substitute.

The early-model M18 couldn't penetrate the Tiger, so how on the name of Earth did they destroy them GarryB! It really isn't all that hard!

Most of the time they didn't.... they called up artillery or Sherman Fireflies or air power.

But still slower than the tanks it would defend...

They don't defend... they attack, and they attack first, and make a hole that other tanks take advantage of... while they are moving through the hole the T-10s will support, but that is it... they don't follow the T-54s into the hole and into the enemy rear area.

As of right now, you and GarryB are comparing a failure (T-10), to a failure (M103), just to prove that the failure (T-10) isn't a failure... How does that work? - Gotta' give me props for that one...

No disrespect meant, but your opinion is your opinion... the Soviets kept the T-10M as a breakthrough tank till 1967 and then moved it to the reserves where it stayed till 1993. The Soviets clearly saw it as not being a failure. they saw it as a useful tool for specific missions.

Speed is very useful nevertheles4s.

The Soviets had experience with fast tanks and they were not impressed.

I guess you think the T-34 was a failure because they squandered its potential high speed with stupid armour and a bad gun.

And X2 to what Cracker said... (my vote BTW)

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

Instead of myths and assumptions, let's end the debate around T-10M mobility vs other tanks... So, how "immobile and sluggish" is the T-10M?

Type, weight metric t, max speed kph, engine power, hp/t

T-10M: 51.5t, 50km/h, 750hp (diesel), 14.6hp/t

Centurion Mk.9: 52t (i can't find variants caracteristics, it's probably right for mk-7-9, I chose Mk-9 because it's first model to come with L7, and in 1959, one year after T-10M), 35-40 km/h, 650hp (gasoline), 12.5hp/t

M47: 46.2t, 48km/h, 810hp (gasoline), 17.5hp/t

M48: 45t, 45km/h, 810hp (gasoline), 18hp/t

M48A2: 47.6t, 48km/h, 825hp (gasoline), 17.3hp/t

M48A3: 48.5t, 48km/h, 750hp (diesel), 15.5hp/t

M103: 56.7t, 34km/h, 810hp (gasoline), 14.3hp/t

M103A2: 58.1t, 37km/h, 750hp (diesel), 12.9hp/t

Conqueror: 66t, 34km/h, 810hp (gasoline), 12.3hp/t

T-54A/B: 36.4t, 50km/h, 520hp (diesel), 14.3hp/t

T-55: 36t, 55km/h, 580hp (diesel), 16.1hp/t

Surprise, centurion is both HEAVIER and LESS MOBILE than T-10M!!! As already said, this tank would be classfied heavy in soviet army! (IS-3 was only 47t!), but most importantly, it would be REJECTEDright away by soviet army for UNACEPTABLE level of "armour" and very bad mobility.

Except the M47 and M48 with gasoline engines (gasoline engines! ), all tanks are roughly equal or inferior to the T-10M. So much for the immobile and sluggish T-10M ... BlacktailD and Mike E, eat this. And keep in mind also T-10M has fantastic large tracks, high torque per ton, great passability, ability of deep fording to 5m (no western tank can, at the time), etc... Not even talking armour/firepower here!!!, good range with ability to use disposable fuel drums, etc...

even vs 1960s tanks which were designed differently than those of precedent generations, the T-10M is not worse, only the Leo 1 and AMX 30 are noticeably more mobile, being the first fast MBTs, followed by T-64 and later 72, 80, leo 2, abrams. And keep in mind T-10M has better or equal armour and firepower to all the tanks above...

How many times have you seen a pro ukropian scumbag claim that the T-34,T-54 and T-64 are ukropian?

Well this might just clarify the situation. In the Soviet Union Ukraine and Belarus were considered part of Russia therefore the construction of design and production facilities in them is no surprise and that these facilities attracted Russian designers is no surprise either.

Kharkov did develop the T-34,T-44,T-54 and T-64 however all of these tank programs where headed by Alexander Morozov who was bon in the town of Bryansk Russia and his design teams consisted mainly of other Russians so Kharkovs success is due to Russian designers.

So Kharkov was successful only because it was then a Russian design bureau and has since not come up with anything entirely new.

Same with Antonov bureau, saying that "Ukrainians" designed and built the largest airplane in the world (An-225). It was the Soviet Union, with all its industrial, technical and human resources. Ukraine on its own isn't able to design or mass-produce anything, this is more than proven in the last 25 years.

An interesting table of production and deliveries of T-62 tanks to the Soviet Army at the Ural Carriage Works in 1962-1973, as well as the receipt of other types of tanks in the Soviet Army during that period (from the book by SV Ustyantsev "Ural Car Building Works, 80 Years" ., taken from the web resource otvaga2004.mybb.ru).

Previously, the data on the production of other types of tanks in the USSR during the period 1969 -1990 was already laid out.

Stumbled across this thread whilst wandering through forum after dinner and some good wine. Wow. Reading some of the earlier posts in interesting. Being a bit of a history buff and also having a hobby that often involves extensive research of individual tanks, it's an interesting read.

As a start, from reading part of this thread the fetish about top speed is just that, a fetish. Real operations of any tank will mostly be 'off road', ergo not much more than walking speed in most European Theater areas of combat. One can not go bucketing across the steppes or lowlands at speed without having done a thorough recon of the expected AO and even then no crew had the time to inspect in clinical detail the land they would fight over. One unseen gully or wash, and in combat tanks are buttoned up and essentially blind, and in you go face first and you are then in a world of hurt.

If you want a good history of both the Tiger E and Tiger B plus Jagdtiger, read 'Tigers in Combat' no's 1, 2 and 3. Written with extensive interviews of the crews and commanders.

Panther models D, A and G were good enough to continue in service in France until the mid 50's. Panzer 4 models H and J were still in service as of the '67 war in the ME as were Shermans and T34/85's.

T-34/76 and T34/85 are still in service today in admittedly backwater countries by today's standards but they still serve.

And a truism. Even the first versions of T34/76 or Panzer 4 A will kill you just as dead as the Armata or Abrams if you don't know how to kill them and the means to do so.

Final truism. If you don't have experience with the wet chernozim of the Russian steppes, you have never seen mud.

One more thing. After the fall of SSSR, europe got out of the war business. Can anyone tell me which nato country besides US can field a complete armored division? I know the answer but I'd like to hear opinions.