INTERVIEW WITH WILLIAM BARNES
BY STEPHEN BRIMM JULY 30, 2001
MR. BRIMM: This is Steve Brimm from the D. C. Booth Historic National Fish
Hatchery. I am in Huron, South Dakota at the State Fair and we are visiting tonight with
Bill Barnes, Sr., and his son, Bill Barnes, Jr. We are going to review a few moments from
Mr. Barnes’ past, his relationships with some of the Fish and Wildlife Services former
Directors, and some of our programs that he was involved with. Mr. Barnes, where
would you like to begin?
MR. BARNES, SR: I’ll begin with my recollections about John Gottschalk. I met John
in 1934. At that time was Camp Forester at a CCC Camp in southern Indiana. When I
met him he was giving a movie at a conservation club. This was my first association with
John. Later, between 1935 and 1940, I was employed by the Federal government under
the Resettlement Administration, the Farm Security Administration and the Soil
Conservation Service. I was located as a Project Forester, in charge of all forestry and
conservation work on a thirty thousand acre area in southern Indiana. At that time, it was
being developed by the Federal government for transfer to the Indiana Department of
Conservation, after it had been completed. My association with the employees during
the 1935-1940 period was involved with their interest in fish and wildlife on this
resettlement area. Many of them came down, and although it was being developed as a
State Forest, the Division of Fish and Game became quite interested in it. Many of them
came down for hunting, particularly for Quail at that time. John came down and spent a
day with me when we were hunting Bobwhite Quail. I didn’t really associate with him
much between that time and when I was in charge of the first Federal aid project in
Indiana. I was involved as the Project Leader of the Pittman-Roberson Project.
MR. BRIMM: What year was that?
MR. BARNES, SR: I was employed on July 1, 1940. At that time, John was still with
the Division of Fish and Game. The name of that organization was later changed to the
Division of Fish and Wildlife but it was known as the Division of Fish and Game at that
time. John was Superintendent of Fisheries. H. P. Cottingham was Superintendent of
Game and John Rowle was Superintendent of Game Wardens. Those were the three main
sections in the Division of Fish and Game at that time. They also had an education
section that visited conservation clubs. They showed movies and did a lot of work like
that. This is the way that John, evidently became associated with the Division. I believe
that his father was a prominent State Senator from northeaster Indiana. I can’t verify
this, but I believe that someone could. He was a Democratic Senator. Simmons, who was
the Director of the entire Division of Conservation, and Kunckle who was also in the
picture as Director of the Division of Fish and Game were all from that section of
northeastern Indiana. I assume that this probably made preparations for John’s
association, because everything at that time was political. Any time that politics changed
there was an entire turn over of everyone, except for me and our men in the Federal Aid
program. At that time we were protected by the Hatch Act. They assumed that if they
tried to do something with our entire group, their Federal aide funds might be canceled for
the State. I staid on during the war. I was born in 1908 and I was in my thirties at that
time. We were still planning on having the area transferred to the Indiana Division of
Forestry as a State Forest. But when we started to get involved in World War II, why
things changed quite a bit. It must have been in the late 1940s or in early 1941, John left
the Division and he went to Indiana University to pursue some graduate work under Dr.
William Ricker who was in charge of the Indiana Lake and Stream Survey. After the war,
John accepted a position with Seagram’s Distillery in Lawrenceburg, Indiana. At that
time, they were working on Penicillin, and John staid there. I know that I have forgotten
some parts of the story. I think that John got his Bachelor’s degree from Irwin College in
Richmond, Indiana. It was a Quaker college. I do not know his religion. But I believe
that is where he got his Bachelor’s degree before he came. And he had evidently had just
graduated ahead of this time when I first saw him showing movies. The picture that I
have shown you represents some of the history of the old Division of Fish and Game.
The Division was under the Democratic regime for sixteen years and at the end of twelve
year, Simmons and Kunckle backed the wrong fellow in the Primary. They felt that
Governor Schrecker, who was also a Democrat, would want them to resign. But he
didn’t. I talked to his Secretary and he told me that Schrecker would have been glad for
them to have remained. The two of them resigned. During that period, “Pink”
Guttermith [sic] who is shown in this picture had been in charge of the educational
section. He took over as the new Director of the Division of Fish and Game. Then he
accepted a position with the Wildlife Management Institute as Vice President under Ira
Gabrielson. [Showing a photograph] He is in this picture after having taken that position,
and John is in the picture long after he had left. The reason they are in the picture is at
the end of the sixteen years the Republican Party took over for four years. There was a
complete change of everyone except for, as I said, the Pittman-Roberson personnel. Then
at the end of that period, between 1946 and 1950, Schrecker came back, after a lapse of
one four year period as Governor for the second time. When he came back, why all of
these people were reunited. John happened to be at the North American Wildlife
Conference in Milwaukee, along with Simmons who was the former Director of the
Division of Conservation. Cottingham then took over as the Director of Fish and Game,
and Kunckle took over as the Director of Fish and Game after this lapse of four years.
What happened was that they all got together, and at this time, this picture was taken.
At this time, John had been with the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service for several years. I
assume this picture was taken about 1950 or 1951. The whole bunch kind of got
together, and of course, Cottingham and Kunckle were back in. After Pink Guttermith
accepted the Vice Presidency of the Wildlife Management Institute Harold Mosbaugh
who is also in this picture, became the Director of the Division of Fish and Game. At
that time the central office of the U. S. Fish Wildlife Service of the Department of the
Interior was in the Merchandise-Mark building in Chicago. We went to Chicago and
inquired about employment with the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service. John submitted his
application. I submitted my application, as did Hank Cottingham and Harold Mosbaugh.
My wife didn’t want me to leave Indiana and so after my application had been approved
and I had been told to report for an assignment on the Missouri River Basin Survey, I
resigned and Cottingham resigned. Gottschalk and Mosbaugh went with the Fish and
Wildlife Service. I had received instructions to report to a location in Wyoming with John
Gottschalk. I didn’t report and then John went from there. I suppose politics also
entered in to the Federal program too. John, I think, took over the Dingo-Johnson
program. Did he go over this with you?
MR. BRIMM: It rings a bell.
MR. BARNES, SR: Of course, Pink Guttermith, or C. R. Guttermith, we called him
“Pink” with the Wildlife Management Institute, he and John were quite influential in
Washington. I don’t know when John served as the Director. I do remember a time,
when he was Director, that he was interested in getting some kind a project in Indiana,
because there was no National Wildlife Refuge in Indiana at that time. He came down and
I flew with him in a plane over part of southern Indiana looking for a prospective area for
National Wildlife Refuge. He had wanted to at least do something for Indiana. I believe
he did establish some kind a Fisheries Research Station or something in some location in
southern Indiana. I never heard what happened to it. I don’t know whether it just
disappeared or what happened to it. Indiana did not get at National Wildlife Refuge until
months later than that. In fact, Charlie Sheffield who was with the Regional office in
Minneapolis kind of ramrodded a Wildlife Refuge in a part of Indiana that I didn’t think
was even worth making a Refuge out of, if you want to know the truth.
MR. BARNES, JR: He was the first Manager.
MR. BARNES, SR: This shows that a lot of times how things can be established. And
now, they have another Wildlife Refuge down in part of the area that flew over with John
on the Patoka River. Another thing that I remember is that back in the 1940s we were
trying to actually get a Wildlife Refuge in the Kankakee region of northwestern Indiana.
At one time, that area contained over a half million acres of marsh that was real important
for ducks and geese and other wildlife in Indiana. This was while Guttermith was still in
there, and I think that maybe it was while Kunckle was still in there. This was in the
early 1940s. We met with J. Clark Salyer in Kentland, Indiana, which is in that region. I
believe that he had one of his engineers by the name of Taylor in on it. We looked over
this area and Salyer said, “What would this cost, per acre”? I told him that I thought it
would cost about $50.00 dollars an acre. Then he said, “Well, we don’t pay that much
money”! [All laughing] But anyway, he wasn’t in favor of spending that much money
on a Refuge. But look what you have to pay for one now! At the present time they are
trying to push for an area in the same Kankakee region. About all they are going to buy is
just a few acres here and there, as far as I am concerned.
MR. BARNES, JR: They are not going to get the whole parcel.
MR. BARNES, SR: Actually, in 1948 I optioned for over seven thousand acres for the
Willetsu[sic] Fish and Wildlife Area, that’s what it’s called now. I optioned for an
average of $50.00 an acre. And now it contains way over eight thousand acres, I think. It
just shows up that at that time, land could have been purchased, but now it is gone. I
don’t look for them to really have any Refuges of much size whatsoever in the Kankakee
region. At the present time the counties north of the Kankakee River are being considered
by different agencies. What are your different agencies now? There is the North
American… I don’t remember all of the difference agencies, but evidently they are all
contributing. And since that time of course the Indiana Lake Shore has been purchased
and I think that was is going to happen it that they will be able to add some areas to the
lake shore and places like that. I don’t see how they, at the present time, would ever end
up in taking up all of that valuable agricultural land. This is my only feeling about it.
My association with the Fish and Wildlife Service goes back to the time when I took over
the Federal Aide projects. I coordinated those projects for years. And since that time,
there has been just one other person who just retired. I was Coordinator of all Federal
Aide projects, Pittman-Roberson and Dingo-Johnson for quite a few years. My
association primarily with the Fish and Wildlife Service has been with the Federal Aide
Projects. My title was Federal Aide Coordinator. We have had a lot of different meetings
with various people who at the time were from the Regional office in Minneapolis,
instead of Denver. At the Regional office, when Bob Burwell was in there they always
had a Federal Aide Inspector who coordinated the work in the region. That was my
association with them. I had some pictures, and I am sure that the Regional office
probably has the same ones. Every year we would meet in a different State of the region.
At the time, North and South Dakota were in the Region and that has all been changed.
The Regional Office would have some of the Federal Aide coordination meetings that we
had, and if they want any pictures of those, I have one. I know that they also have one of
our meeting in Illinois. I have another one of our meeting in North Dakota. It was on a
Sharptail hunt that we had up there. I have that, and I think that they also have it. My
association was with them. I can tell you that during the time when I first came on in the
1940s there was a fellow by the name of Vernon Morrick who I think was the Regional
Director. I don’t even know what his background or education was. Dan Jansen came in
as the Director out of Minneapolis. Everyone had a high degree of respect for Dan
Jansen. I know that Knuckle and all of us really liked him. I remember one time when we
met in Minneapolis he actually has some of us around to his home. Later, after he came
to Washington I met him, and some of the other fellows that were associated with him
then. At that time they were talking about endangered species for the first time that I had
heard about. I did meet Al Day, but I don’t much about Al other than that after he had
retired, he came to Indiana and was researching information for a book. Are you familiar
with the book that he wrote?
MR. BARNES, JR: I can’t remember.
MR. BARNES, SR: Well, anyway he was researching that and I gave him some
information that he used in his book for Indiana. That was my association with Al.
Otherwise, I didn’t have too much association with him. I can’t remember too much
about the rest of it. Other than of course the fact that Bill [his son] started in North
Dakota under Bull Madden. Did you know Bull?
MR. BRIMM: No, I wasn’t around him.
MR. BARNES, JR: He was a good boss.
MR. BARNES, SR: Bull had a brother who remained in Indiana in Fish and Wildlife by
the name of Bill Madden. Bull went with the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Bull was
Bill’s younger brother. [Addressing his son] You know all about Bull.
MR. BARNES, JR: Yeah. I was thinking too Dad, that you had a chapter in that book
on water fowling on the Mississippi. You each had a chapter to write and I know that
you wrote one on Indiana about back in the market hunting days. That is interesting. I
know that you have got that book. Who decided to do that?
MR. BARNES, SR: Eugene Connate, and the publishing company in New York City
decided it.
MR. BARNES, JR: It wasn’t something that the Fish and Wildlife Service instituted? I
thought that maybe it was.
MR. BARNES, SR: He called it Wild Flying in the Mississippi Flyway instead of “Water
fowling” in the Mississippi Flyway. He has each State give a resume of wild fowl and
they included Ducks and Geese and Rails and Gallinules and everything else. I know that
you interviewed some of those old market hunters.
MR. BARNES, SR: Right. Yes, I did. Practically all of my association was with the
Regional office in Minneapolis. One of our men, who left us, was Dale Martin. Did you
ever hear of Dale Martin? He was a Federal Aide Inspector for the Region. He was in
Minneapolis. And a fellow by the name of John Langenbach was another Federal Aide
Inspector. There were several of them that would always come to each State and check on
what you were doing. They also had an auditor from the Regional office who came and
audited our Federal Aide expenditures. His name was Art Thigens. He was an Auditor
out of Minneapolis for years and years. Anyway, my association has been with all of
those fellows.
As I said earlier, John and I were to report to Wyoming, and Mosbaugh reported to
Billings, Montana. He acted as a liaison officer between with all of the States involved
with the Missouri River Basin. The U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service employed him. I
imagine that if they wanted to write histories about all of this, why, they’re going to have
an awful big book! I mean, if they are going to cover all of the regions in the United States
that’s got to be a task for somebody!
MR. BRIMM: We’ve got a Historian back there at NCTC that wants to do that. And
the more stories that he can get from the people that were involved with the Fish and
Wildlife Service, he figures that there is more flavor that he can put in that book and it will
be more accurate. It will probably give stories that aren’t written down anywhere yet.
MR. BARNES, SR. That’s right. Well up until our old department was taken out of
politics, why, the whole thing was political. It became the Department of Natural
Resources, and that was in 1965. After that the thing was stabilized, but before that,
whenever the politics changed in Indiana the whole personnel changed, as I said, with the
exception of our Federal Aide group. So you can see that I never had a very good taste in
my mouth for politicians! I just couldn’t understand how they could be involved. But I
suppose that the Fish and Wildlife Service has had the same deals. I don’t know. You
fellows know more about that.
MR. BARNES, JR: I never noticed it since I started. But maybe it was before that.
MR. BRIMM: Maybe in the early years it was all enclosed, just like the States were.
MR. BARNES, SR. That’s right. I know that your Directors have changed.
MR. BRIMM: Oh yeah. They generally change with the turn over of administrations.
It didn’t filter all the way down.
MR. BARNES, SR. With us, if soaked all the way down to the Federal Aide projects.
MR. BRIMM: Did you ever know what happened to that Mr. Mosbaugh?
MR. BARNES, SR: He died.
MR. BRIMM: I mean, after he went to Billings. Did he stay in Billings?
MR. BARNES, SR. Oh yes. He served out the rest of his time, until he retired there.
His widow is still living in Billings. Her name is Margaret. In fact, I send her a Christmas
card every year. Harold of course, was the Director in the Division of Fish and Game at
the time when he accepted this position with the River Basin Survey. He was Indiana
Director at that time. Wasn’t there a Peck-Sloan? Bob Peck was in charge of the Army
Corp of Engineers, and Sloan was on the State side, I think. I think that maybe Harold
took the position that Sloan had had.
MR. BARNES, JR: Was that before the main stem Missouri dams were built?
MR. BARNES, SR: Oh yeah. In fact, that was when John and I were supposed to be
working on River Basin projects, when I was told to go to Wyoming. That’s were John
started.
As far as my career is concerned, why, I got a Bachelor’s degree in Forestry. That was
three years in Pennsylvania. I think it was the second oldest forest school in the United
States. It is now part of Penn State University. It is call Mont Alto. It went through the
same politics too. Of course Penn State was much stronger than our Forestry School. In
fact the school that I went to taught nothing but Forestry. They were primarily educating
us to be district foresters or foresters for the State of Pennsylvania. Well, Penn State
started their Forestry School after that. They had a lot of greater power, so my third year
at Mont Alto they decided that there was going to one school teaching Forestry in
Pennsylvania. That was Penn State, and our school was transferred to Penn State. A lot
of us didn’t like that, so my last year, I went down to North Carolina State, along with
most of us. That’s the reason I graduated from North Carolina State. Otherwise, why, I
would have graduated from good old Pennsylvania Forestry School.
MR. BRIMM: How long were you associated with the CCC program?
MR. BARNES, SR: I was only associated with the CCC from June 1933 until October 1,
1935. I came to Indiana from Florida. I worked for the Florida Forest Service from 1930
until 1933 and at that time, why, some of the people who had attended Mont Alto; Ralph
Wilcox was State Forester, he went to Mont Alto. And Joe Taylor, his assistant went to
Mont Alto also. As soon as the CCC started, they got in touch with a lot of the
graduates of Mont Alto and got them to come to Indiana as Camp Foresters on individual
projects. For example, we started in on private soil erosion control, before the Soil
Conservation Service was even formed. That’s how the Soil Conservation Service got
started. It was just within a few months that Hugh Bennett got the Soil Conservation
Service started.
MR. BRIMM: Your project was in southern Indiana? Your camp?
MR. BARNES, SR: Yes. Later, before I came this five-year employment with the
Federal government why, then we transferred to any area that had been given to Wilcox.
The county next to us near Ferdinand, I transferred down there and that became
Ferdinand State Forest. Then I left there. Wilcox had me go to northern Indiana on a new
CCC Camp. Part of the project there was establishing a nursery. I left that project and
came to Martin County. I was there for five years. That was where I met my wife who
was a secretary out there.
As far as that book: I don’t think that it could ever be published.
MR. BRIMM: It would have a lot of pages in it. What year did you retire?
MR. BARNES, SR: I retired in 1978, I think. Is that right?
MR. BARNES, JR: I think so, because I had been at Devil’s Lake and you retired later.
MR. BARNES, SR: I retired on June 30, 1978. No, 1977.
MR. BARNES, JR: You had forty years with the Indiana department didn’t you?
MR. BARNES, SR: Yeah, well it was thirty-eight years. Of course, if you counted my
other associations with the CCC Camp, it would be forty years, and five years with the
Federal government. But I got interested in Fish and Game rather that Forestry. That’s
how I came with the Division of Fish and Game. I was more interested in that, than I was
in Forestry at that time, and I guess I still have been.
MR. BRIMM: Well, let me ask you this question to see if you ever saw these special
cars that we hauled fish on. Did you ever see any of the rail cars that hauled fish through
Indiana?
MR. BARNES, SR: No.
MR. BRIMM: I think Indiana had their own fish [train] car.
MR. BARNES, SR. Yes, they had their own, but I never saw any Federal ones.
MR. BRIMM: But you saw the State one, or heard about it?
MR. BARNES, SR: Of course, the Fish and Wildlife Service furnished the fry to the
Indiana Trout rearing station. Then the Division raised them for put and take fishing in
some of the waters in northeastern Indiana that were cold enough for Trout. Actually, I
remember one time when we were stocking on the resettlement; we just used the horse
tank and had an aerator and we went down on the west fork of the White River. There
were some old ox bow cut offs in there so that when the water went down in the river,
why, it left these fish stranded in there. So we went down there and collected a lot of
fish. We didn’t collect any minnows because we were afraid of Carp. We collected a lot
of fish there and released them in this Lake Greenwood on the resettlement. Then the old
Fish and Game furnished the fish for restocking there. They just had, as I recall, just
aerated tanks that they transferred the fish in at that time. What did you have?
MR. BRIMM: Before 1940, and it started back in the 1870s, we would take passenger
cars and convert them into fish hauling cars on the train system. And we’d pull those
cars around the country. A lot of the States had their own rail cars that would go back
and forth through the State.
MR. BARNES, SR: Indiana didn’t have any rail cars. They just had a bunch of State
Fish Hatcheries. It was one that was about thirty miles from this Lake Greenwood where
I was, and they just hauled the fish over there. I don’t remember how, but they just had
those aerated tanks.
MR. BRIMM: That sounds about right. I just thought that I would check because
there’s not much history on using to railcars. I am trying to build one out there in
Spearfish. We are building a replica rail car. The Federal government had ten of them
over the seventy-year history. They used them coast-to-coast and had crews that rode
the rails spring to fall. We are building a replica there in Spearfish, and I just keep
searching for information about that era.
MR. BARNES, SR: I never heard of them bringing any fish to Indiana.
MR. BRIMM: I am sure that they went through there.
MR. BARNES: I also wrote another chapter in a book for Perdue University about old
Fish and Game. It started back in the 1850s when they passed the first law to prohibit
panning the fish in one stream down there.
MR. BRIMM: And that started the Fish and Game Department?
MR. BARNES, SR: Well, it started the laws, but it didn’t start the Department.
Actually that is all in this one chapter that I’ve got. Happened was that during the first
years in the 1800s, practically everything was about fish. The commissioners would be
appointed by the State Legislature, and would serve in their homes. Unless they lived in
Indianapolis, they actually served as Commissioners in their hometowns. That never
changed until in the 1900s. In fact the first time that game was even recognized was in the
early 1900s. Before that, it was all fish.
MR. BRIMM: That kind of fits the history of Refuges and our Hatchery Programs,
because we started our first National Fish Hatchery in 1872. We didn’t get our first
Refuge until 1903. That was our first National Wildlife Refuge. That’s about a thirty-year
difference in time.
MR. BARNES, JR: That was Pelican Island. You’ve been down there haven’t you Dad?
MR. BARNES, SR: Right.
MR. BRIMM: We are getting ready to celebrate a Centennial, or one hundred years for
the Refuge System in a couple of years. The roots of the Fish and Wildlife Service go
back to the U. S. Fish Commission days when the Fish Commission was formed, and
some of our roots today go back into that Commission. So it kind of fits that they were
dealing with fish in those early years.
MR. BARNES, SR: Perdue celebrated their fifty-year anniversary of their Forestry
School a few years ago. I can’t remember all of the dates, but put them all in that part
about Fish and Game that I wrote up for them in that book. Another fellow wrote up
about Forestry. That’s all in that book. A fellow by the name of Sweeney was a
Minister in Columbus, Indiana. He had his office there, and he was the first person to be
appointed as the Commission of Fish and Game. That must have been in about 1908. So
actually, what happened is that the U. S. Fish Commissioner, who ever he was, furnished
a lot of information to the States. They came out with an annual report, and part of it
was just repeated from what they got from the Federal government. They did get
Walleye fry, so they had to get that from the Federal government didn’t they?
MR. BRIMM: Uh, huh.
MR. BARNES, SR. They reported that as [unintelligible] in the container.
MR. BRIMM: That still happens today. We provide some fish for some programs, and
the States write that up: the anglers getting so many fish. It’s for the good of the
resource, that’s why we do that.
MR. BARNES, SR: Here in Indiana why, it was pretty much fish up until at least 1900.
MR. BARNES, JR: They never even had limits on rabbits, or squirrel or anything else
back then did they?
MR. BARNES, SR: No. I have got all of that in that one chapter. There was a lady that
I met at a meeting: I don’t know if she was from the State or from the Indiana Historical
Society, she said she was going to take some of the information that I had in that book,
particularly about the Depression. They were interested in what had happened during
the Depression. And she talked like they would just consolidate that in a little
publication. I don’t know. I can’t get grants, living here, and I am ninety-three years old.
The U. S. Navy took over this resettlement area. It was an ammunition depot during the
war. In fact that whole area that was supposed to go to the Division of Forestry lasted
for about twelve months. Then the Federal government came in and rescinded the ninety-
nine year lease, and took the whole thing and turned it into an ammunition depot. It
didn’t last very long as a State Forest.
MR. BRIMM: What is the name of the depot?
MR. BARNES, SR: It’s called Crane. It’s called the Surface Warfare Center. They do all
kinds of research stuff.
MR. BARNES, JR: They make a lot of small arms there for the Sea-Bees and Seals and
Special Forces.
MR. BARNES, SR: They got concerned about the ammunition depot being right there on
the east coast, so they decided during the war to transfer all of that stuff back into the
middle of the United States where it wouldn’t be open. That’s how they took over. It
started out as a storage area for ammunition and during the war, it turned into everything.
During the war they made all kinds of flares, and all kinds of weapons there. They call it
the Surface Warfare Center, or something like that.
MR. BRIMM: Are they still going strong?
MR. BARNES, SR: Oh yeah. You’d bet that the Congressman from there better back
them up!
MR. BRIMM: Well, I think that we have got a good story or two here.
MR. BARNES, JR: Well, that Willis, [unintelligible] and Jasper, Pulaski and all of those
areas back there; that’s where the monies went to buy those from the PR projects.
MR. BARNES, SR: That’s right. That’s where all of it went.
MR. BARNES, JR: But there is quite a bit of land that the States bought with those
monies.
MR. BARNES, SR: When I was coordinating it, of course we got a lot of other; we
coordinated research, but whenever we had any extra money, it went into buying land.
MR. BRIMM: When you got the first project from those funds, do you remember what
kind of money came down to the State at the time?
MR. BARNES, SR: The first project was for Hubby Lake. Hubby Lake was the
concentrating area for waterfowl, right in the corner of Illinois and Indiana, and the
Township right next to that. The Federal Aide money was spent for buying that area.
We had about eight hundred and eighty acres that we bought to begin with. After they
put in the high dams on the Ohio River, it has backed water up into it and it is now over
four thousand acres. It was the best wintering area for waterfowl in Indiana. I tried to get
them interested in several areas. In fact there was one; Sam Jorgenson was the Federal
Aide Inspector, at it was what we called a Goose Pond. We could have bought it in the
1950s. This man who owned several thousand acres in there evidently had some
influence in Washington and he went and had the whole project sunk. That would have
been a good area because it was on the west side. It’s just on the eastern side of the
Mississippi Flyway and we don’t get the Ducks that Illinois gets. Hubby Lake was the
closest thing to Horseshoe Lake in Illinois that we had.
MR. BRIMM: I grew up next to Horseshoe Lake. That’s my home country, southern
Illinois.
MR. BARNES, SR: Is it? Where did you go to school?
MR. BRIMM: In Carbondale.
MR. BARNES, SR: You went to Southern Indiana.
MR. BRIMM: Yep, SIU.
MR. BARNES, SR: Was Clemster [sic] there then?
MR. BRIMM: Yes, he was over on the Wildlife side.
MR. BARNES, SR: I knew him. We used to work together a little bit. Willard Clemtser,
from southern Illinois. That’s down in the coal country too.
MR. BRIMM: Oh yeah. And it’s waterfowl country.
MR. BARNES. SR: Did you know about Crab Orchard?
MR. BRIMM: Oh yeah.
MR. BARNES, SR: The fellow, who had been in charge of the engineering on this
Resettlement Administration, was in charge of engineering and I was in charge of Forestry
and Conservation. Well, Bill Wells went to that new project when they were just getting
it started.
MR. BRIMM: I’ll be darned!
MR. BARNES, SR: I didn’t know that you went to SIU. When did you finish?
MR. BRIMM: I finished in the 1970s.
MR. BARNES, SR: Was George Cicetta there then?
MR. BRIMM: No, that name doesn’t ring a bell.
MR. BARNES, JR: Did he go there, Dad?
MR. BARNES, SR: Yes. So did Carl Asfeld. But they were before that. They must
have been there in the 1960s. I remember SIU because we employed some of the
students, and some of the graduates.
MR. BRIMM: It was billed as a good Wildlife school.
MR. BARNES, SR: Did you ever know Floyd Kringle?
MR. BRIMM: No.
MR. BARNES, SR. You probably never heard of Davidson either. He was with the
State. You have probably heard of Sam Parr. Davidson was there with the State. They
were really more political in Indiana, really they were! If you wanted to hunt at
Horseshoe, you could go down there and they would give you a license and everything
else.
MR. BRIMM: If you were on the right side of the fence?
MR. BARNES, SR: That’s right. Sam Parr was a pretty good person. They named an
area after him didn’t they?
MR. BRIMM: I don’t know. I don’t think that there is one in southern Illinois named
that. May it’s up north somewhere.
MR. BARNES, SR. I don’t know whether it’s around Mount Vernon or where. Jim
McCall didn’t go to SIU, but he came from that area. That was in the 1950s. Maybe he
did go there. I don’t know how long they have had the school there at SIU. Those
fellows were all before the time we are talking about when you were there.
MR. BRIMM: I don’t know how old the school was. My Dad went there, so it was
back before the war. He was probably in his second or third year when he got called to
the war. It was a normal college before then.
MR. BARNES, SR: Well, they all started out as teacher’s colleges. That’s the way
Indiana State in Terra Haute started. It started out like that. They play SIU, Indiana
State does. [In sports]
MR. BRIMM: Well, I believe that we have covered some good ground guys. Let’s wrap
it up since it’s getting dark. I really appreciate your stories.

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INTERVIEW WITH WILLIAM BARNES
BY STEPHEN BRIMM JULY 30, 2001
MR. BRIMM: This is Steve Brimm from the D. C. Booth Historic National Fish
Hatchery. I am in Huron, South Dakota at the State Fair and we are visiting tonight with
Bill Barnes, Sr., and his son, Bill Barnes, Jr. We are going to review a few moments from
Mr. Barnes’ past, his relationships with some of the Fish and Wildlife Services former
Directors, and some of our programs that he was involved with. Mr. Barnes, where
would you like to begin?
MR. BARNES, SR: I’ll begin with my recollections about John Gottschalk. I met John
in 1934. At that time was Camp Forester at a CCC Camp in southern Indiana. When I
met him he was giving a movie at a conservation club. This was my first association with
John. Later, between 1935 and 1940, I was employed by the Federal government under
the Resettlement Administration, the Farm Security Administration and the Soil
Conservation Service. I was located as a Project Forester, in charge of all forestry and
conservation work on a thirty thousand acre area in southern Indiana. At that time, it was
being developed by the Federal government for transfer to the Indiana Department of
Conservation, after it had been completed. My association with the employees during
the 1935-1940 period was involved with their interest in fish and wildlife on this
resettlement area. Many of them came down, and although it was being developed as a
State Forest, the Division of Fish and Game became quite interested in it. Many of them
came down for hunting, particularly for Quail at that time. John came down and spent a
day with me when we were hunting Bobwhite Quail. I didn’t really associate with him
much between that time and when I was in charge of the first Federal aid project in
Indiana. I was involved as the Project Leader of the Pittman-Roberson Project.
MR. BRIMM: What year was that?
MR. BARNES, SR: I was employed on July 1, 1940. At that time, John was still with
the Division of Fish and Game. The name of that organization was later changed to the
Division of Fish and Wildlife but it was known as the Division of Fish and Game at that
time. John was Superintendent of Fisheries. H. P. Cottingham was Superintendent of
Game and John Rowle was Superintendent of Game Wardens. Those were the three main
sections in the Division of Fish and Game at that time. They also had an education
section that visited conservation clubs. They showed movies and did a lot of work like
that. This is the way that John, evidently became associated with the Division. I believe
that his father was a prominent State Senator from northeaster Indiana. I can’t verify
this, but I believe that someone could. He was a Democratic Senator. Simmons, who was
the Director of the entire Division of Conservation, and Kunckle who was also in the
picture as Director of the Division of Fish and Game were all from that section of
northeastern Indiana. I assume that this probably made preparations for John’s
association, because everything at that time was political. Any time that politics changed
there was an entire turn over of everyone, except for me and our men in the Federal Aid
program. At that time we were protected by the Hatch Act. They assumed that if they
tried to do something with our entire group, their Federal aide funds might be canceled for
the State. I staid on during the war. I was born in 1908 and I was in my thirties at that
time. We were still planning on having the area transferred to the Indiana Division of
Forestry as a State Forest. But when we started to get involved in World War II, why
things changed quite a bit. It must have been in the late 1940s or in early 1941, John left
the Division and he went to Indiana University to pursue some graduate work under Dr.
William Ricker who was in charge of the Indiana Lake and Stream Survey. After the war,
John accepted a position with Seagram’s Distillery in Lawrenceburg, Indiana. At that
time, they were working on Penicillin, and John staid there. I know that I have forgotten
some parts of the story. I think that John got his Bachelor’s degree from Irwin College in
Richmond, Indiana. It was a Quaker college. I do not know his religion. But I believe
that is where he got his Bachelor’s degree before he came. And he had evidently had just
graduated ahead of this time when I first saw him showing movies. The picture that I
have shown you represents some of the history of the old Division of Fish and Game.
The Division was under the Democratic regime for sixteen years and at the end of twelve
year, Simmons and Kunckle backed the wrong fellow in the Primary. They felt that
Governor Schrecker, who was also a Democrat, would want them to resign. But he
didn’t. I talked to his Secretary and he told me that Schrecker would have been glad for
them to have remained. The two of them resigned. During that period, “Pink”
Guttermith [sic] who is shown in this picture had been in charge of the educational
section. He took over as the new Director of the Division of Fish and Game. Then he
accepted a position with the Wildlife Management Institute as Vice President under Ira
Gabrielson. [Showing a photograph] He is in this picture after having taken that position,
and John is in the picture long after he had left. The reason they are in the picture is at
the end of the sixteen years the Republican Party took over for four years. There was a
complete change of everyone except for, as I said, the Pittman-Roberson personnel. Then
at the end of that period, between 1946 and 1950, Schrecker came back, after a lapse of
one four year period as Governor for the second time. When he came back, why all of
these people were reunited. John happened to be at the North American Wildlife
Conference in Milwaukee, along with Simmons who was the former Director of the
Division of Conservation. Cottingham then took over as the Director of Fish and Game,
and Kunckle took over as the Director of Fish and Game after this lapse of four years.
What happened was that they all got together, and at this time, this picture was taken.
At this time, John had been with the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service for several years. I
assume this picture was taken about 1950 or 1951. The whole bunch kind of got
together, and of course, Cottingham and Kunckle were back in. After Pink Guttermith
accepted the Vice Presidency of the Wildlife Management Institute Harold Mosbaugh
who is also in this picture, became the Director of the Division of Fish and Game. At
that time the central office of the U. S. Fish Wildlife Service of the Department of the
Interior was in the Merchandise-Mark building in Chicago. We went to Chicago and
inquired about employment with the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service. John submitted his
application. I submitted my application, as did Hank Cottingham and Harold Mosbaugh.
My wife didn’t want me to leave Indiana and so after my application had been approved
and I had been told to report for an assignment on the Missouri River Basin Survey, I
resigned and Cottingham resigned. Gottschalk and Mosbaugh went with the Fish and
Wildlife Service. I had received instructions to report to a location in Wyoming with John
Gottschalk. I didn’t report and then John went from there. I suppose politics also
entered in to the Federal program too. John, I think, took over the Dingo-Johnson
program. Did he go over this with you?
MR. BRIMM: It rings a bell.
MR. BARNES, SR: Of course, Pink Guttermith, or C. R. Guttermith, we called him
“Pink” with the Wildlife Management Institute, he and John were quite influential in
Washington. I don’t know when John served as the Director. I do remember a time,
when he was Director, that he was interested in getting some kind a project in Indiana,
because there was no National Wildlife Refuge in Indiana at that time. He came down and
I flew with him in a plane over part of southern Indiana looking for a prospective area for
National Wildlife Refuge. He had wanted to at least do something for Indiana. I believe
he did establish some kind a Fisheries Research Station or something in some location in
southern Indiana. I never heard what happened to it. I don’t know whether it just
disappeared or what happened to it. Indiana did not get at National Wildlife Refuge until
months later than that. In fact, Charlie Sheffield who was with the Regional office in
Minneapolis kind of ramrodded a Wildlife Refuge in a part of Indiana that I didn’t think
was even worth making a Refuge out of, if you want to know the truth.
MR. BARNES, JR: He was the first Manager.
MR. BARNES, SR: This shows that a lot of times how things can be established. And
now, they have another Wildlife Refuge down in part of the area that flew over with John
on the Patoka River. Another thing that I remember is that back in the 1940s we were
trying to actually get a Wildlife Refuge in the Kankakee region of northwestern Indiana.
At one time, that area contained over a half million acres of marsh that was real important
for ducks and geese and other wildlife in Indiana. This was while Guttermith was still in
there, and I think that maybe it was while Kunckle was still in there. This was in the
early 1940s. We met with J. Clark Salyer in Kentland, Indiana, which is in that region. I
believe that he had one of his engineers by the name of Taylor in on it. We looked over
this area and Salyer said, “What would this cost, per acre”? I told him that I thought it
would cost about $50.00 dollars an acre. Then he said, “Well, we don’t pay that much
money”! [All laughing] But anyway, he wasn’t in favor of spending that much money
on a Refuge. But look what you have to pay for one now! At the present time they are
trying to push for an area in the same Kankakee region. About all they are going to buy is
just a few acres here and there, as far as I am concerned.
MR. BARNES, JR: They are not going to get the whole parcel.
MR. BARNES, SR: Actually, in 1948 I optioned for over seven thousand acres for the
Willetsu[sic] Fish and Wildlife Area, that’s what it’s called now. I optioned for an
average of $50.00 an acre. And now it contains way over eight thousand acres, I think. It
just shows up that at that time, land could have been purchased, but now it is gone. I
don’t look for them to really have any Refuges of much size whatsoever in the Kankakee
region. At the present time the counties north of the Kankakee River are being considered
by different agencies. What are your different agencies now? There is the North
American… I don’t remember all of the difference agencies, but evidently they are all
contributing. And since that time of course the Indiana Lake Shore has been purchased
and I think that was is going to happen it that they will be able to add some areas to the
lake shore and places like that. I don’t see how they, at the present time, would ever end
up in taking up all of that valuable agricultural land. This is my only feeling about it.
My association with the Fish and Wildlife Service goes back to the time when I took over
the Federal Aide projects. I coordinated those projects for years. And since that time,
there has been just one other person who just retired. I was Coordinator of all Federal
Aide projects, Pittman-Roberson and Dingo-Johnson for quite a few years. My
association primarily with the Fish and Wildlife Service has been with the Federal Aide
Projects. My title was Federal Aide Coordinator. We have had a lot of different meetings
with various people who at the time were from the Regional office in Minneapolis,
instead of Denver. At the Regional office, when Bob Burwell was in there they always
had a Federal Aide Inspector who coordinated the work in the region. That was my
association with them. I had some pictures, and I am sure that the Regional office
probably has the same ones. Every year we would meet in a different State of the region.
At the time, North and South Dakota were in the Region and that has all been changed.
The Regional Office would have some of the Federal Aide coordination meetings that we
had, and if they want any pictures of those, I have one. I know that they also have one of
our meeting in Illinois. I have another one of our meeting in North Dakota. It was on a
Sharptail hunt that we had up there. I have that, and I think that they also have it. My
association was with them. I can tell you that during the time when I first came on in the
1940s there was a fellow by the name of Vernon Morrick who I think was the Regional
Director. I don’t even know what his background or education was. Dan Jansen came in
as the Director out of Minneapolis. Everyone had a high degree of respect for Dan
Jansen. I know that Knuckle and all of us really liked him. I remember one time when we
met in Minneapolis he actually has some of us around to his home. Later, after he came
to Washington I met him, and some of the other fellows that were associated with him
then. At that time they were talking about endangered species for the first time that I had
heard about. I did meet Al Day, but I don’t much about Al other than that after he had
retired, he came to Indiana and was researching information for a book. Are you familiar
with the book that he wrote?
MR. BARNES, JR: I can’t remember.
MR. BARNES, SR: Well, anyway he was researching that and I gave him some
information that he used in his book for Indiana. That was my association with Al.
Otherwise, I didn’t have too much association with him. I can’t remember too much
about the rest of it. Other than of course the fact that Bill [his son] started in North
Dakota under Bull Madden. Did you know Bull?
MR. BRIMM: No, I wasn’t around him.
MR. BARNES, JR: He was a good boss.
MR. BARNES, SR: Bull had a brother who remained in Indiana in Fish and Wildlife by
the name of Bill Madden. Bull went with the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Bull was
Bill’s younger brother. [Addressing his son] You know all about Bull.
MR. BARNES, JR: Yeah. I was thinking too Dad, that you had a chapter in that book
on water fowling on the Mississippi. You each had a chapter to write and I know that
you wrote one on Indiana about back in the market hunting days. That is interesting. I
know that you have got that book. Who decided to do that?
MR. BARNES, SR: Eugene Connate, and the publishing company in New York City
decided it.
MR. BARNES, JR: It wasn’t something that the Fish and Wildlife Service instituted? I
thought that maybe it was.
MR. BARNES, SR: He called it Wild Flying in the Mississippi Flyway instead of “Water
fowling” in the Mississippi Flyway. He has each State give a resume of wild fowl and
they included Ducks and Geese and Rails and Gallinules and everything else. I know that
you interviewed some of those old market hunters.
MR. BARNES, SR: Right. Yes, I did. Practically all of my association was with the
Regional office in Minneapolis. One of our men, who left us, was Dale Martin. Did you
ever hear of Dale Martin? He was a Federal Aide Inspector for the Region. He was in
Minneapolis. And a fellow by the name of John Langenbach was another Federal Aide
Inspector. There were several of them that would always come to each State and check on
what you were doing. They also had an auditor from the Regional office who came and
audited our Federal Aide expenditures. His name was Art Thigens. He was an Auditor
out of Minneapolis for years and years. Anyway, my association has been with all of
those fellows.
As I said earlier, John and I were to report to Wyoming, and Mosbaugh reported to
Billings, Montana. He acted as a liaison officer between with all of the States involved
with the Missouri River Basin. The U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service employed him. I
imagine that if they wanted to write histories about all of this, why, they’re going to have
an awful big book! I mean, if they are going to cover all of the regions in the United States
that’s got to be a task for somebody!
MR. BRIMM: We’ve got a Historian back there at NCTC that wants to do that. And
the more stories that he can get from the people that were involved with the Fish and
Wildlife Service, he figures that there is more flavor that he can put in that book and it will
be more accurate. It will probably give stories that aren’t written down anywhere yet.
MR. BARNES, SR. That’s right. Well up until our old department was taken out of
politics, why, the whole thing was political. It became the Department of Natural
Resources, and that was in 1965. After that the thing was stabilized, but before that,
whenever the politics changed in Indiana the whole personnel changed, as I said, with the
exception of our Federal Aide group. So you can see that I never had a very good taste in
my mouth for politicians! I just couldn’t understand how they could be involved. But I
suppose that the Fish and Wildlife Service has had the same deals. I don’t know. You
fellows know more about that.
MR. BARNES, JR: I never noticed it since I started. But maybe it was before that.
MR. BRIMM: Maybe in the early years it was all enclosed, just like the States were.
MR. BARNES, SR. That’s right. I know that your Directors have changed.
MR. BRIMM: Oh yeah. They generally change with the turn over of administrations.
It didn’t filter all the way down.
MR. BARNES, SR. With us, if soaked all the way down to the Federal Aide projects.
MR. BRIMM: Did you ever know what happened to that Mr. Mosbaugh?
MR. BARNES, SR: He died.
MR. BRIMM: I mean, after he went to Billings. Did he stay in Billings?
MR. BARNES, SR. Oh yes. He served out the rest of his time, until he retired there.
His widow is still living in Billings. Her name is Margaret. In fact, I send her a Christmas
card every year. Harold of course, was the Director in the Division of Fish and Game at
the time when he accepted this position with the River Basin Survey. He was Indiana
Director at that time. Wasn’t there a Peck-Sloan? Bob Peck was in charge of the Army
Corp of Engineers, and Sloan was on the State side, I think. I think that maybe Harold
took the position that Sloan had had.
MR. BARNES, JR: Was that before the main stem Missouri dams were built?
MR. BARNES, SR: Oh yeah. In fact, that was when John and I were supposed to be
working on River Basin projects, when I was told to go to Wyoming. That’s were John
started.
As far as my career is concerned, why, I got a Bachelor’s degree in Forestry. That was
three years in Pennsylvania. I think it was the second oldest forest school in the United
States. It is now part of Penn State University. It is call Mont Alto. It went through the
same politics too. Of course Penn State was much stronger than our Forestry School. In
fact the school that I went to taught nothing but Forestry. They were primarily educating
us to be district foresters or foresters for the State of Pennsylvania. Well, Penn State
started their Forestry School after that. They had a lot of greater power, so my third year
at Mont Alto they decided that there was going to one school teaching Forestry in
Pennsylvania. That was Penn State, and our school was transferred to Penn State. A lot
of us didn’t like that, so my last year, I went down to North Carolina State, along with
most of us. That’s the reason I graduated from North Carolina State. Otherwise, why, I
would have graduated from good old Pennsylvania Forestry School.
MR. BRIMM: How long were you associated with the CCC program?
MR. BARNES, SR: I was only associated with the CCC from June 1933 until October 1,
1935. I came to Indiana from Florida. I worked for the Florida Forest Service from 1930
until 1933 and at that time, why, some of the people who had attended Mont Alto; Ralph
Wilcox was State Forester, he went to Mont Alto. And Joe Taylor, his assistant went to
Mont Alto also. As soon as the CCC started, they got in touch with a lot of the
graduates of Mont Alto and got them to come to Indiana as Camp Foresters on individual
projects. For example, we started in on private soil erosion control, before the Soil
Conservation Service was even formed. That’s how the Soil Conservation Service got
started. It was just within a few months that Hugh Bennett got the Soil Conservation
Service started.
MR. BRIMM: Your project was in southern Indiana? Your camp?
MR. BARNES, SR: Yes. Later, before I came this five-year employment with the
Federal government why, then we transferred to any area that had been given to Wilcox.
The county next to us near Ferdinand, I transferred down there and that became
Ferdinand State Forest. Then I left there. Wilcox had me go to northern Indiana on a new
CCC Camp. Part of the project there was establishing a nursery. I left that project and
came to Martin County. I was there for five years. That was where I met my wife who
was a secretary out there.
As far as that book: I don’t think that it could ever be published.
MR. BRIMM: It would have a lot of pages in it. What year did you retire?
MR. BARNES, SR: I retired in 1978, I think. Is that right?
MR. BARNES, JR: I think so, because I had been at Devil’s Lake and you retired later.
MR. BARNES, SR: I retired on June 30, 1978. No, 1977.
MR. BARNES, JR: You had forty years with the Indiana department didn’t you?
MR. BARNES, SR: Yeah, well it was thirty-eight years. Of course, if you counted my
other associations with the CCC Camp, it would be forty years, and five years with the
Federal government. But I got interested in Fish and Game rather that Forestry. That’s
how I came with the Division of Fish and Game. I was more interested in that, than I was
in Forestry at that time, and I guess I still have been.
MR. BRIMM: Well, let me ask you this question to see if you ever saw these special
cars that we hauled fish on. Did you ever see any of the rail cars that hauled fish through
Indiana?
MR. BARNES, SR: No.
MR. BRIMM: I think Indiana had their own fish [train] car.
MR. BARNES, SR. Yes, they had their own, but I never saw any Federal ones.
MR. BRIMM: But you saw the State one, or heard about it?
MR. BARNES, SR: Of course, the Fish and Wildlife Service furnished the fry to the
Indiana Trout rearing station. Then the Division raised them for put and take fishing in
some of the waters in northeastern Indiana that were cold enough for Trout. Actually, I
remember one time when we were stocking on the resettlement; we just used the horse
tank and had an aerator and we went down on the west fork of the White River. There
were some old ox bow cut offs in there so that when the water went down in the river,
why, it left these fish stranded in there. So we went down there and collected a lot of
fish. We didn’t collect any minnows because we were afraid of Carp. We collected a lot
of fish there and released them in this Lake Greenwood on the resettlement. Then the old
Fish and Game furnished the fish for restocking there. They just had, as I recall, just
aerated tanks that they transferred the fish in at that time. What did you have?
MR. BRIMM: Before 1940, and it started back in the 1870s, we would take passenger
cars and convert them into fish hauling cars on the train system. And we’d pull those
cars around the country. A lot of the States had their own rail cars that would go back
and forth through the State.
MR. BARNES, SR: Indiana didn’t have any rail cars. They just had a bunch of State
Fish Hatcheries. It was one that was about thirty miles from this Lake Greenwood where
I was, and they just hauled the fish over there. I don’t remember how, but they just had
those aerated tanks.
MR. BRIMM: That sounds about right. I just thought that I would check because
there’s not much history on using to railcars. I am trying to build one out there in
Spearfish. We are building a replica rail car. The Federal government had ten of them
over the seventy-year history. They used them coast-to-coast and had crews that rode
the rails spring to fall. We are building a replica there in Spearfish, and I just keep
searching for information about that era.
MR. BARNES, SR: I never heard of them bringing any fish to Indiana.
MR. BRIMM: I am sure that they went through there.
MR. BARNES: I also wrote another chapter in a book for Perdue University about old
Fish and Game. It started back in the 1850s when they passed the first law to prohibit
panning the fish in one stream down there.
MR. BRIMM: And that started the Fish and Game Department?
MR. BARNES, SR: Well, it started the laws, but it didn’t start the Department.
Actually that is all in this one chapter that I’ve got. Happened was that during the first
years in the 1800s, practically everything was about fish. The commissioners would be
appointed by the State Legislature, and would serve in their homes. Unless they lived in
Indianapolis, they actually served as Commissioners in their hometowns. That never
changed until in the 1900s. In fact the first time that game was even recognized was in the
early 1900s. Before that, it was all fish.
MR. BRIMM: That kind of fits the history of Refuges and our Hatchery Programs,
because we started our first National Fish Hatchery in 1872. We didn’t get our first
Refuge until 1903. That was our first National Wildlife Refuge. That’s about a thirty-year
difference in time.
MR. BARNES, JR: That was Pelican Island. You’ve been down there haven’t you Dad?
MR. BARNES, SR: Right.
MR. BRIMM: We are getting ready to celebrate a Centennial, or one hundred years for
the Refuge System in a couple of years. The roots of the Fish and Wildlife Service go
back to the U. S. Fish Commission days when the Fish Commission was formed, and
some of our roots today go back into that Commission. So it kind of fits that they were
dealing with fish in those early years.
MR. BARNES, SR: Perdue celebrated their fifty-year anniversary of their Forestry
School a few years ago. I can’t remember all of the dates, but put them all in that part
about Fish and Game that I wrote up for them in that book. Another fellow wrote up
about Forestry. That’s all in that book. A fellow by the name of Sweeney was a
Minister in Columbus, Indiana. He had his office there, and he was the first person to be
appointed as the Commission of Fish and Game. That must have been in about 1908. So
actually, what happened is that the U. S. Fish Commissioner, who ever he was, furnished
a lot of information to the States. They came out with an annual report, and part of it
was just repeated from what they got from the Federal government. They did get
Walleye fry, so they had to get that from the Federal government didn’t they?
MR. BRIMM: Uh, huh.
MR. BARNES, SR. They reported that as [unintelligible] in the container.
MR. BRIMM: That still happens today. We provide some fish for some programs, and
the States write that up: the anglers getting so many fish. It’s for the good of the
resource, that’s why we do that.
MR. BARNES, SR: Here in Indiana why, it was pretty much fish up until at least 1900.
MR. BARNES, JR: They never even had limits on rabbits, or squirrel or anything else
back then did they?
MR. BARNES, SR: No. I have got all of that in that one chapter. There was a lady that
I met at a meeting: I don’t know if she was from the State or from the Indiana Historical
Society, she said she was going to take some of the information that I had in that book,
particularly about the Depression. They were interested in what had happened during
the Depression. And she talked like they would just consolidate that in a little
publication. I don’t know. I can’t get grants, living here, and I am ninety-three years old.
The U. S. Navy took over this resettlement area. It was an ammunition depot during the
war. In fact that whole area that was supposed to go to the Division of Forestry lasted
for about twelve months. Then the Federal government came in and rescinded the ninety-
nine year lease, and took the whole thing and turned it into an ammunition depot. It
didn’t last very long as a State Forest.
MR. BRIMM: What is the name of the depot?
MR. BARNES, SR: It’s called Crane. It’s called the Surface Warfare Center. They do all
kinds of research stuff.
MR. BARNES, JR: They make a lot of small arms there for the Sea-Bees and Seals and
Special Forces.
MR. BARNES, SR: They got concerned about the ammunition depot being right there on
the east coast, so they decided during the war to transfer all of that stuff back into the
middle of the United States where it wouldn’t be open. That’s how they took over. It
started out as a storage area for ammunition and during the war, it turned into everything.
During the war they made all kinds of flares, and all kinds of weapons there. They call it
the Surface Warfare Center, or something like that.
MR. BRIMM: Are they still going strong?
MR. BARNES, SR: Oh yeah. You’d bet that the Congressman from there better back
them up!
MR. BRIMM: Well, I think that we have got a good story or two here.
MR. BARNES, JR: Well, that Willis, [unintelligible] and Jasper, Pulaski and all of those
areas back there; that’s where the monies went to buy those from the PR projects.
MR. BARNES, SR: That’s right. That’s where all of it went.
MR. BARNES, JR: But there is quite a bit of land that the States bought with those
monies.
MR. BARNES, SR: When I was coordinating it, of course we got a lot of other; we
coordinated research, but whenever we had any extra money, it went into buying land.
MR. BRIMM: When you got the first project from those funds, do you remember what
kind of money came down to the State at the time?
MR. BARNES, SR: The first project was for Hubby Lake. Hubby Lake was the
concentrating area for waterfowl, right in the corner of Illinois and Indiana, and the
Township right next to that. The Federal Aide money was spent for buying that area.
We had about eight hundred and eighty acres that we bought to begin with. After they
put in the high dams on the Ohio River, it has backed water up into it and it is now over
four thousand acres. It was the best wintering area for waterfowl in Indiana. I tried to get
them interested in several areas. In fact there was one; Sam Jorgenson was the Federal
Aide Inspector, at it was what we called a Goose Pond. We could have bought it in the
1950s. This man who owned several thousand acres in there evidently had some
influence in Washington and he went and had the whole project sunk. That would have
been a good area because it was on the west side. It’s just on the eastern side of the
Mississippi Flyway and we don’t get the Ducks that Illinois gets. Hubby Lake was the
closest thing to Horseshoe Lake in Illinois that we had.
MR. BRIMM: I grew up next to Horseshoe Lake. That’s my home country, southern
Illinois.
MR. BARNES, SR: Is it? Where did you go to school?
MR. BRIMM: In Carbondale.
MR. BARNES, SR: You went to Southern Indiana.
MR. BRIMM: Yep, SIU.
MR. BARNES, SR: Was Clemster [sic] there then?
MR. BRIMM: Yes, he was over on the Wildlife side.
MR. BARNES, SR: I knew him. We used to work together a little bit. Willard Clemtser,
from southern Illinois. That’s down in the coal country too.
MR. BRIMM: Oh yeah. And it’s waterfowl country.
MR. BARNES. SR: Did you know about Crab Orchard?
MR. BRIMM: Oh yeah.
MR. BARNES, SR: The fellow, who had been in charge of the engineering on this
Resettlement Administration, was in charge of engineering and I was in charge of Forestry
and Conservation. Well, Bill Wells went to that new project when they were just getting
it started.
MR. BRIMM: I’ll be darned!
MR. BARNES, SR: I didn’t know that you went to SIU. When did you finish?
MR. BRIMM: I finished in the 1970s.
MR. BARNES, SR: Was George Cicetta there then?
MR. BRIMM: No, that name doesn’t ring a bell.
MR. BARNES, JR: Did he go there, Dad?
MR. BARNES, SR: Yes. So did Carl Asfeld. But they were before that. They must
have been there in the 1960s. I remember SIU because we employed some of the
students, and some of the graduates.
MR. BRIMM: It was billed as a good Wildlife school.
MR. BARNES, SR: Did you ever know Floyd Kringle?
MR. BRIMM: No.
MR. BARNES, SR. You probably never heard of Davidson either. He was with the
State. You have probably heard of Sam Parr. Davidson was there with the State. They
were really more political in Indiana, really they were! If you wanted to hunt at
Horseshoe, you could go down there and they would give you a license and everything
else.
MR. BRIMM: If you were on the right side of the fence?
MR. BARNES, SR: That’s right. Sam Parr was a pretty good person. They named an
area after him didn’t they?
MR. BRIMM: I don’t know. I don’t think that there is one in southern Illinois named
that. May it’s up north somewhere.
MR. BARNES, SR. I don’t know whether it’s around Mount Vernon or where. Jim
McCall didn’t go to SIU, but he came from that area. That was in the 1950s. Maybe he
did go there. I don’t know how long they have had the school there at SIU. Those
fellows were all before the time we are talking about when you were there.
MR. BRIMM: I don’t know how old the school was. My Dad went there, so it was
back before the war. He was probably in his second or third year when he got called to
the war. It was a normal college before then.
MR. BARNES, SR: Well, they all started out as teacher’s colleges. That’s the way
Indiana State in Terra Haute started. It started out like that. They play SIU, Indiana
State does. [In sports]
MR. BRIMM: Well, I believe that we have covered some good ground guys. Let’s wrap
it up since it’s getting dark. I really appreciate your stories.