Why must you always resort to labelling me as crazy and taking the piss? You're obviously some old patriot who can/will not accept the reality, or even CONSIDER alternatives. Maybe its because you've been in the Army (guessing from your name) and it hurts you to think the government you were serving have not been truthful to you. Maybe you cant handle you have helped them.

How can you be so certain what im saying is wrong, yet be so certain about what you read in the papers? Cant you think from a neutral point of view? Im not saying believe all conspiracies, im saying put yourself in a neutrals person's shoes for once.

You follow and support your country. Be a good little sheep, until the dog that is your Government bites you in the arsehole.

Also why isnt anyone answering my question. What if 9/11 happened in China, they blame an american group, come over bomb the shit out of us for 10 years whilst their government build bases and vest more and more interest in the region. Then a Assange appears and lets the world know the truth. Will he still be bad? Of course not. He will be hailed as a saviour.

I know it may be hard for some people to think and actually use their brains. Maybe you're just not used to thinking independantly.

Anyways F*ck it i give up, there's no point continuing this thread if no one cant or is willing to consider that their government might be in wars for the wrong reasons.

I don't know where you were on 9/11 but I watched it firsthand, had friends die in the planes & buildings, heard the cellphone calls, got firsthand accounts. Nothing to do with reading anything or any government account. This is not the story of the resurrection of Christ, It's an event we experienced ourselves. That's why your belief in "alternate reality" is nuts.

You dont make sense...because its an event we witnessed my theory is nuts? Im not denying it didnt happen! Just who did it

You dont make sense...because its an event we witnessed my theory is nuts? Im not denying it didnt happen! Just who did it

Well lets see? Couldn't have been the Bush Administration they had been in office a little over seven months. That's to short of time to put something of this magnitude together. Was it Clinton? Never happen, he was to busy chasing the interns in the White House. So who was it? You tell us.

This was written by a 15 year old on livescience.com responding to a conspiracy theorist.

If they wanted to justify a war in the middle east, they didn't need to pull off 9/11 to do it; hell, our government's been meddling in Middle Eastern affairs for decades without having to kill its own citizens to justify it, including one case where the CIA, on the orders of President Dwight D. Eisenhower, paid mobs in Iran to overthrow the democratically elected leader and replace him with a bloodthirsty dictator, which is the root cause of most of our problems with Iran today.

Bush could have just pointed out that Hussein was a rampant psychopath who murdered thousands of his own citizens for nothing other than being Kurds, who stole oil from and occupied Kuwait, and who threatened to attack Israel, one of our closest allies, and many people here probably would have gone along with it. I'd even consider it a rather strong case, even if I would still oppose our involvement on the grounds that Israel would be able to handle the situation on it's own if Western nations and China would simply butt out of it's affairs and let it protect itself, and if we stopped giving more aid to Israel's enemies than we give to it.

Not to mention, the war for oil you're referring to is taking place in Iraq, whereas in our search for Bin Laden, we put troops in Afghanistan and Pakistan. There is hardly any, if any, correlation at all.

You lot are blind to what is happening. You just can not accept that your government are pests. Have a watch of this video, which may be new to some and a reminder to others. Every person on here is ignoring this point i made because you cant say shit to it:

It might not make you realise that America is fabricating everything, but it might make some of you patriots think again. Actually, no it wont, i dont really have much belief in you. You're helpless. It just might help out normal Americans.

This was written by a 15 year old on livescience.com responding to a conspiracy theorist.

If they wanted to justify a war in the middle east, they didn't need to pull off 9/11 to do it; hell, our government's been meddling in Middle Eastern affairs for decades without having to kill its own citizens to justify it, including one case where the CIA, on the orders of President Dwight D. Eisenhower, paid mobs in Iran to overthrow the democratically elected leader and replace him with a bloodthirsty dictator, which is the root cause of most of our problems with Iran today.

Bush could have just pointed out that Hussein was a rampant psychopath who murdered thousands of his own citizens for nothing other than being Kurds, who stole oil from and occupied Kuwait, and who threatened to attack Israel, one of our closest allies, and many people here probably would have gone along with it. I'd even consider it a rather strong case, even if I would still oppose our involvement on the grounds that Israel would be able to handle the situation on it's own if Western nations and China would simply butt out of it's affairs and let it protect itself, and if we stopped giving more aid to Israel's enemies than we give to it.

Not to mention, the war for oil you're referring to is taking place in Iraq, whereas in our search for Bin Laden, we put troops in Afghanistan and Pakistan. There is hardly any, if any, correlation at all.

That would not have worked, to simply say "Oh Saddam is suddenly bad now lets get him". He was in power for years so the US could not just go in. They had to fabricate something to give it legitmacy, like WMDs. Iraq was a much more peaceful place than it was before than it is now.

America has long been a supporter of placing dictators that are on their payroll throughout the world. Gaddaffi a classic example. Afghan president another. Pakistan president another. THIS IS THEIR STRATEGY.

That would not have worked, to simply say "Oh Saddam is suddenly bad now lets get him". He was in power for years so the US could not just go in. They had to fabricate something to give it legitmacy, like WMDs. Iraq was a much more peaceful place than it was before than it is now.

America has long been a supporter of placing dictators that are on their payroll throughout the world. Gaddaffi a classic example. Afghan president another. Pakistan president another. THIS IS THEIR STRATEGY.

The questions is why didn't they fabricate WMD's in Iraq. I mean they just went through all the trouble in setting up 9/11, why didn't they go and plant WMD in Iraq.

Wow you really do have a complete disdain for the US Government don't you? At this point it isn't even worth debating with you as no amount of factual information will make a damn bit of sense to you, yet you accuse everyone else of being blind to the truth? How about being blind to lies?

Face it, you've got a bit of a bias going on there. The US Government might not be the nicest bunch of fellas you'll ever meet, but when the next Hitler, Stalin, etc. comes on the world stage, we're sure gonna need those evil doers that are the USofA.

Do you even have a modicum of understanding of how much damage a fully fueled Boeing 767-200 can do to a steel/concrete structure? Do you have any idea how long it would take to prep a building the size of the WTC for demolition? You then have to multiply that by 2, then you have to take into account that said buildings were occupied by 1000s of employees. It takes weeks and I do mean weeks to do so, yet during the entire time the WTC was being prepped for demolition not one person happened to notice something odd going on? Not one person bothered to say, "Why are you strapping explosives to that steel beam?"

You honestly think that the US is the only country to set-up puppet dictators as you call them to support their foreign policy? You need to study your own history a bit and a bit of world history too. America is not the only country guilty of such actions and they won't be the last.

Having some very vested interest in the future of the UK and US, I'll chime in... Plus, I'm fairly experienced in this particular debate - I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mob17

[...]

It might not make you realise that America is fabricating everything, but it might make some of you patriots think again. Actually, no it wont, i dont really have much belief in you. You're helpless. It just might help out normal Americans.

What are "normal Americans"? Are those the ones that are typically put down for never having left the States or not being accustomed to dealing with diversity beyond what they experience within the country? Or, by "normal" are those the smaller fraction which have very global lifestyles - living, working and playing around the world regularly? Because, much like different classes and persons in any country, their world views will be very different on these topics.

I think it's important to state that one doesn't have to be some hick from rural WV to fall into one belief or the other relative to the wars and politics. Nor, does one need to have never left the Midlands, though feels culturally entitled to opinions on France and others, to have equally xenophobic beliefs about things over there. Agree?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mob17

[...]

America has long been a supporter of placing dictators that are on their payroll throughout the world. Gaddaffi a classic example. Afghan president another. Pakistan president another. THIS IS THEIR STRATEGY.

Who has a long standing history of supporting/disposing/placing/killing global dictators/leaders/people throughout the world? Hm? It's funny how if we walk down a city street here, often the Brits will comment on the lack of 'history' or how recent everything seems; though, when convenient, we will address the US' "long" history of something or another and conveniently forget much of European history. (Yes, your island is part of Europe. Deal.)

/rant

I've lived and worked all over. Not many places nor peoples are all that different.

This was fun. It was like a weekend in the Lake Dist with my Brit ex-in-laws, minus the medicinal chugging of wifebeater to dull the pain.

Well... off to the airport. I hope there isn't anyone there that doesn't look/sound/think/act like me...

You dont make sense...because its an event we witnessed my theory is nuts? Im not denying it didnt happen! Just who did it

I never said you denied it happened, or that you're nuts because we witnessed it. Please read the posts instead of making knee-jerk responses.

What I said was this: Your claim that we are believing a government story is moot - my understanding of what happened, how it unfolded, and who was involved was not formed by reading a government account. You are failing to discuss this in an intelligent manner - it's all or nothing for you. We are smart enough to know that the war in Iraq was based on fabricated propaganda, and that the US has had a long history with the factions involved. But that doesn't mean that when I see the sun rise, I need to question whether it's really the sun, and really rising.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories disregard the known facts, logic, or reason. It has nothing to do with trusting our government or not.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories disregard the known facts, logic, or reason. It has nothing to do with trusting our government or not.

Indeed. Not to mention every talking point the Truthers, uphold as fact/proof of conspiracy has been thoroughly debunked every which way from Sunday. And not by the evil US government mind you, but by average, highly educated and experienced citizens. Simply put, their (Truthers) argument(s) don't hold water when presented with factual evidence/logic.

I didnt mean to come across as saying the US government is the ONLY bad government in the world. The UK is just as currupt along with many governments across the world. I believe politicians are in it for themselves and don't give a monkeys about the public. I was trying to use 9/11 as an example because its the biggest one out there. But there are hundreds of examples of currupt politicians/governments throughout the world.

Anyways, as one forum member pointed out, there's no point in continuing this discussion as I, or you, have strong beliefs and i will consistantly be labelled as crazy.

Anyways, as one forum member pointed out, there's no point in continuing this discussion as I, or you, have strong beliefs and i will consistantly be labelled as crazy.

Sorry mate, you really arn't playing with a full deck on this.

For a start you are crediting Govt's (all of them) with far too much intelligence..... and I can assure you they are far from that.

Most Govt's around the world are in shit street as they can't manage their way out of a wet paper bag let alone staging unbelievably complicated acts of organisation the like of which your suggesting, and without it leaking to the press......yeah right!

Anyways, as one forum member pointed out, there's no point in continuing this discussion as I, or you, have strong beliefs and i will consistantly be labelled as crazy.

Sorry mate, you really arn't playing with a full deck on this.

For a start you are crediting Govt's (all of them) with far too much intelligence..... and I can assure you they are far from that.

Most Govt's around the world are in shit street as they can't manage their way out of a wet paper bag let alone staging unbelievably complicated acts of organisation the like of which your suggesting, and without it leaking to the press......yeah right!

Maybe, you could be right. Obviously no one really knows for sure But i have my opinion just like you guys have yours.

Your ideal country sounds a bit like utopia, and a bit like fascism. How do you exile the undesirables? The only way I could see something like that work is in a large nation with a VERY minimalist federal and state government. Then, each city could run itself, almost like a city-state like Singapore or the old Venice. That way, one city could be communist, another Libertarian, another agrarian, another anarchist, another socialist, etc. etc. I don't see the communist ones surviving very long unless they're under, say, 150 people. The nucleus of these city states would have to be a wealthy rich guy who buys a huge swath of land, or a corporation of individuals who pool their resources to do the same. Competition would bring all the producers to the more free, libertarian city states for the most part, but then you'd have barbarian hordes made of the stupid and the criminal roaming the frontiers and hinterlands. Of course, they would probably turn to violence and pillage, in which case nearby city states threatened by the barbarians would probably band together, regardless of political affiliation, to put 'em down. You wouldn't want them to overthrow a city and have them use their resources and weapons against you.

Sounds like an interesting movie plot.

New Zealand is probably top of the list. There are others but NZ has been the one I've done the most research on immigration.

It is utopia, and it is impossible. I'm sure if we quantify "a bit" as a small relation, then any government is like any other government. I assume you either mean fascism's history of racial purity, or the notion of complete control over who is allowed in the country as authoritarian. Now for the former, I thought that the idea of racial or ethnic purity was only a part of the governing body's government, not necessarily a part of fascism. For the latter, I suppose any broad spectrum law is authoritarian. Still, I think I understand what you're getting at.

Since it is an ideal, and ideals can never be reached (not that I'm aware of), I didn't layout details of how this magical government would exist. It's only what I wish the world were. You are absolutely correct in noting that large governing bodies are the obvious result of human nature. I do like the idea of anarchism, at least the high level type -- pure anarchy implies no structure whatsoever which is impossible. While I like the idea, I would not suggest it now. There has been far too much advancement in weaponry, that dissolving all governments would most likely result in the destruction of the human race.

As an ideal, it implies that the problems you mention aren't there. So you don't have people competing and forming hordes (although, yes, it would probably make a blockbuster). The issues of running the society would be resolved by having the brilliant scientists not work on war, but on those issues. Working out the finances is the worst part of it, but assuming we are all logical, rational, selfless people, we assume that the work we do supports these goals. Assuming we had the "moral" intelligent people, we still should have a very good commodity for selling to the stupid people :P I'll wait for someone to bring up logic vs morality I suppose -- figured someone would have by now.

Honestly, the closest thing to my ideal in this world is to buy an island, perhaps from the island people who aren't "owned" by any government.

Another utopia is the omnipotent, beneficent dictator (an ideal you could say the Christians fell in love with). It would work perfectly. If you have someone with absolute power over everything who commands everything and is a "good" person who makes the right decision in any scenario, you have a perfect society.

People are lazy, selfish, and complacent. That is what creates oppressive, bloated governments.Edit: I should say enables the creation of oppressive so and sos. The power hungry people who wish to control and use others is what creates them.

For whoever does not know (where have you been??) he is basically responsible for Wikileaks, the free speech organisation that has released a lot of confidential information to the public. Most of this information exposes corrupt Governments and individuals in this "War on Terror". So obviously there are some unhappy bunnies in the Government/Military.

Now the US want him to pay for what he's done. Ironic isn't it. But what the US wants, the US will get with help from its allies. So a sex allegation against Assange was made up and is being used by Sweden to try and get him extradited to Sweden. Then Sweden can get him extradited to the US where he will face life in jail or even the death penalty.

Assange then sought refuge in Equador's Embassy in London to claim political asylum. And in the last few days Equador has recently granted him political asylum So legally the UK police cant arrest him as long as he stays in the Embassy. At the moment there are around 100 UK police officers surrounding the Embassy, waiting to pounce.

What do you guys think about the whole situation? Is Assange right in what he did or should he not have exposed our Governments? How can he leave the UK without being arrested?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bimmer84

I think some of the info leaked could have potentially put thousands of people in danger by giving locations, plans, grids, etc.. And not just the US, but all it's allies helping to fight overseas as well. Whether or not I believe this diabolical scheme you are talking about with Sweden, I think there should be some kind of punishment. It is basically treason to some extent, which used to be punishable by murdering you in the face with a gun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MediaArtist

He could have handled it better than throwing thousands of pages of classified documents online that contain info that could endanger our soldiers overseas. Say what you want about our military, but it's not their choice to go where they are eventually deployed. They get put in harms way to protect our way of life, and Julian made their lives harder whether he knows it or not.

Block out location data, names, and things like that. Simply be more responsible than uploading megabytes of raw unedited PDF files.

What he did was not an expose; it was a mass data dump. He is trying to argue that his co-conspirators deserve whistle-blower protection but this argument fails. Doubtless, a substantial amount of information posted on wikileaks is probably by those seeking to right a wrong and expose an injustice. Unfortunately for assange (and Manning), posting a massive amount of sensitive data without regard for its contents or any selectivity in the matter has nothing to do with whistleblowing. My opinion...treasonous (for a citizen).