Police on Thursday were still trying to determine the identities of the woman, who appeared to be in her 20s, and two men seen on the tape made at Corona Discount Mall about 40 miles southeast of Los Angeles.

The woman's reaction on the fuzzy video when she saw the men suggested she knew them. Detective Frank Zellers said the incident was being investigated as a kidnapping.

"It's very discouraging right now and it's really difficult for us, because we don't know who the victim is," he told KCAL-TV. "And it's obvious that some kind of crime occurred."

The department had received several calls from witnesses and others in recent days, but had no solid leads, Officer Jesse Jurado said. He said investigators had not yet ruled out the possibility that the incident was a hoax.

A security camera recorded the scene as the woman walked from the parking lot to the sidewalk outside the entrance.

When a black Toyota Solara raced up and braked, the woman looked over her shoulder at the car and took off running with the vehicle in pursuit.

Despite the fuzzy taped images, the woman can be seen running down a parking aisle as two men jump out of the Solara and chase her. One man threw the woman over his shoulder, carried her back to the car and put her in the trunk, which the other man had opened.

A security guard at the mall heard the woman yelling for someone to call the police as she was being stuffed in the trunk, Jurado said.

A handful of shoppers visible in the foreground of the scene appeared to turn their heads and watch. In addition, several motorists drove through the scene

1). We don't know what this was, but lets asume it is what it seems, a kidnapping.

2). There are more cops in SoCal than most places in the nation. With the multitude of cops in Southern California, there were none at hand to prevent this woman's kidnapping. At this very moment, one of the most anti-gun Sheriff's in the nation is seeking he passing of a tax increase for more cops.
Even with a cop o every corner, this would still have occurred.

3). Most Southern Californians are unarmed. They are FORBIDDEN to carry weapons. Not being armed, and not knowing whether the kidnappers were or not, how many people would want to get involved in this?

Solutions?

One. Statewide SHALL ISSUE laws in California.

mlhoward

11-12-2004, 06:02 PM

One. Statewide SHALL ISSUE laws in California.
SHALL ISSUE laws in every state...
National reciprocity under the Full Faith & Credit clause.

davidz71

11-12-2004, 06:08 PM

Amen Gabe!

michael

11-12-2004, 07:47 PM

Shall issue permits are a great idea. However, how many of these sheeple were willing to intervene? How many would intervene if they had a permit? We'll never know, but I think it is truely disgusting that so many people would stand by and watch a kidnapping (assuming that's really what it was) and not act. I understand the female with kids standing there doing nothing, but what about the men? Are they no longer men, but castrated sissies? It's time for men to rise up and be men again, and not the metrosexual wusses that so many have become.:mad:

gsbell

11-13-2004, 08:25 AM

I saw a post on another forum in regards to this incident, the "man" stated he would never break leather for someone else even in a scenario that was plainly a kidnapping. Hope his wife or kids are never at the mercy of someone else.
How could you sleep at night if you did such a thing? I don't carry because I'm some wannabe hero and really wouldn't want to get involved but I know I would to some degree.

Sam Spade

11-13-2004, 08:42 AM

No. "Shall Issue" is nice to have, gives tools to the man who wants to be both effective and legal and ought to be pursued in every state. It has, however, nothing to do with all those sheep in their SUV-pens, moving from one watering hole/mall to another. The self-castrated populace would have sat and watched even if armed to the teeth. Plenty of threads in GT where the sentiment is expressed.

Look at Arizona. Shall Issue. Tradition of self-reliance. Some of the cheapest and most effective training on the planet.

"Fear lurks among the residents of Vaquero Apartments, where Patsy Rubalcaba was dragged off by her hair to be burned to death...

Rubalcaba ran into the apartment complex on Olive Street near Old Nogales Highway and went from door to door, crying for help. As she pounded on one door, a maroon or red SUV pulled up carrying two young men with shaved heads.

Desperate to escape, Rubalcaba leaped through a closed window into an apartment. One man followed, grabbed her by the hair and pulled her to the waiting SUV. Some witnesses heard what they thought was her arm breaking in the struggle."

Burned alive in Arizona.

OTOH, Scott Beamer and his ad-hoc posse were unarmed. To borrow from _Glory_, they anted up and kicked in like men. So, no, it ain't something to be resolved by a government permit. It's something to be resolved by making men act like men--I don't care whether we shame them into it or train them into it. But until people care more for the right thing than they do for their comfort, it's not changing.

fcdobbs

11-13-2004, 08:57 AM

I'm not sure what the best way to intervene in this situation is, but the moral pressure to act would, for me, be clear.

Christian theologians J.P. Moreland and Norman Geisler have written that "to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. in brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission."

From a rookie's point of view this is what I would do:

1. Make verbal challenge "Stop!" Have a firing grip on my sidearm or draw to covert position with sidearm behind thigh.

2. Direct bystanders to call 911. Maybe exercising some crime scene leadership will snap some of the sheeple out of inaction.

3. If at this point the kidnappers did not release the woman and flee, but instead pulled weapons, engage.

What happens if these men simply ignor you? Should you be a good witness or prevent them from leaving the scene with the victim? :confused:

davidz71

11-13-2004, 09:02 AM

How about vote the politicians who made this mess out of office! I don't think Boxer or Feinstein would be smart enough to change anything even if it was one of them being placed in the trunk.

Sam Spade

11-13-2004, 09:06 AM

What happens if these men simply ignor you? Should you be a good witness or prevent them from leaving the scene with the victim? :confused:
Don't make this more complex than it is. Don't enter the infamous "paralysis from analysis" trap. There's more than one right course of action--courses of inaction, rationalized on some web board, are almost surely wrong.

There's a simple test: "What would I want someone to do if it were my sister/daughter in that position?" Now go do it.

Paul Sharp

11-13-2004, 09:23 AM

Sam Spade nailed it, this isn't a tool issue, this is a mental issue.

You mean to tell me there wasn't anything around that could have been picked up and used as a weapon? You mean to tell me that the able bodied men standing nearby didn't have physical weapons? No hands, elbows, knees, feet, nothing?

I've never been anywhere that I couldn't locate at least a handful of weapons nearby.

Blaming a lack of shall issue, or CCW is as bad as blaming McDonalds for fat asses.

I'll tell you what they didn't have, they didn't have a lifestyle of training that would support a mindset to trigger them to take action in a situation that clearly warrants speed, aggression and violence of action.

The Searcher

11-13-2004, 09:48 AM

As long as we're condemning sheeple, why not include the victim?

If understand Kali law correctly she could have been carrying a folding knife legally or a gun illegally. Evidentally she wasn't.

Since she apparently didn't care enough about herself to arm herself and seek training, why should anyone else risk their lives on her behalf?

What makes her life worth more than mine?

Why excuse her from the same standard you are so willing to impose on the bystanders?

michael

11-13-2004, 09:50 AM

What happens if these men simply ignor you? Should you be a good witness or prevent them from leaving the scene with the victim? :confused:
Stop them at all costs. If that means beating them into a bloody pulp, them beat them into a bloody pulp. If you don't have a weapon, which you should, even if it is an improvised one you carry, find something laying around and use it to even the odds. I would hope that if it were my daughter or wife that someone would act, and it is our moral duty as men to visit violence upon those who attempt to harm innocents. The choice is clear, all that we have to do is act.

michael

11-13-2004, 09:56 AM

[QUOTE=The Searcher]As long as we're condemning sheeple, why not include the victim?

If understand Kali law correctly she could have been carrying a folding knife legally or a gun illegally. Evidentally she wasn't.

We don't know, but we do know if she had a weapon, she did not use it. That does not make her a bad person or someone not worth saving. It is our duty as men to intervene. To do less is not to be a man.

Since she apparently didn't care enough about herself to arm herself and seek training, why should anyone else risk their lives on her behalf?

Because it is our duty as men to protect the innocent. This is the code I live by. Most people go through life oblivious, which is not the way it shoud be, but that does not mean we should let them die because they are not willing to train to protect themselves.

What makes her life worth more than mine?

It's not, but sometimes you have to fight against thugs, rapists, robbers and murderers to make the world a safer place. Those that can, should.

Why excuse her from the same standard you are so willing to impose on the bystanders?

She is not excused, but that does not mean we should let her get raped or killed.

JerryM

11-13-2004, 10:23 AM

I am not sure when we became a nation where men allow others to molest, rape, and murder the women and children while they are present.

I remember when I was about 10 in a small town of Queen City, TX, walking on the street and there was a man walking toward me about 1/2 block and a woman walking toward him close to me. There was another man who was drunk and walking down the street cursing. The other man immediately told him to stop cursing in front of that woman, and he did. He knew that a fist in his mouth would be the next step.

Now many of the women curse worse than men, and men do not attempt to shelter or protect women, or to treat them with respect. Organizations like NOW don't help.

However, for a man to see what happened there and not do whatever he could to intervene is inexcusible. Maybe as Arnie said about the CA legis, we are a whole nation of girlie men.

It is like the crowd who stood around and let a woman be killed in NY I think it was.
This is the self-centered society in which we find ourselves. How could any man look at himself in the mirror and not be ashamed, or awake in the night and feel shamed if he had been there?

Jerry

Sam Spade

11-13-2004, 12:17 PM

As long as we're condemning sheeple, why not include the victim?

If understand Kali law correctly she could have been carrying a folding knife legally or a gun illegally. Evidentally she wasn't.

Since she apparently didn't care enough about herself to arm herself and seek training, why should anyone else risk their lives on her behalf?

What makes her life worth more than mine?

Why excuse her from the same standard you are so willing to impose on the bystanders?
You need to understand and internalize what it is that makes us men.

There *are* differences between the sexes, and different roles that each play. We're *supposed* to step up and protect the weaker members. At the best level, we teach and equip our women to take care of themselves. A slight notch down from that is building a home (and by extention, a community) where they're safe.

Someone failed to train and equip that woman to fend for herself in the extreme. The father, husband or brothers are to blame. Shame on them. The community is such that this happened, and the taxpayers and property owners should be ashamed. (And when I say "shame", I mean the deep, dark feeling that comes when one fails utterly at the most basic level. Not embarassment or Rodney Dangerfield humor--Hang your head, tear your clothes and eat ash shame.)

And now that those people and measures have failed, we come to the males on the scene. How happy would you be to watch them rape her in the parking lot? Is it just a scene out of a movie when they douse her in gasoline? Do you call the cops before they light her afire, or while she's screaming? "Oh, yeah, sure, I'd (maybe) do something about that--if there's no danger to me." The only difference between CA and the story I posted from AZ is that we know what happened in AZ. It should have happened in the parking lot of those apartments so that everyone could face the human costs of his failure to act.

Time was that every man knew his place, took quiet pride in that role, and fully understood what "Women and children first" meant. Yes, their lives *are* more important than ours.

Now we're wealthier, and even the "homeless" among us are overweight. Women have insisted on equality--maybe they didn't realize that means being pulled down to men's level.

Gentlemen, there comes a time for the Birkenhead Drill. It doesn't matter if they don't understand, only that we do.

Edit: Kitty Genovese. She deserves to be remembered. Stabbed repeatedly and to death outside her NYC home as 38 witnesses did nothing. Not on my watch.

fcdobbs

11-13-2004, 12:21 PM

Sam and Michael make good points.

Paralysis by analysis? I'll go with my initial gut reaction: The perpetrators do not leave the scene with the victim.

"What would I want someone to do if it were my sister/daughter in that position?"

I would want that someone to ensure that the kidnap victim is not removed from the scene. The time to intervene or resist is at the initial point of attack. Once the victim is transported to "crime scene #2" the chance of a successful outcome drop to virtually zero.

RedDevil

11-13-2004, 03:38 PM

Being in CA, what if this was some kind of movie scene and you stepped in with gun drawn thinking you were preventing a crime?

Gabriel Suarez

11-13-2004, 06:16 PM

Gents,

I am always armed with something, and if I have no tools, I can still take a man out with my hands....so can Paul Sharp and a few others here. Not everyone is at a level like that.

Inaction is inexcusable, but for the average person (irrelevant whether man or woman), having the tools to enforce those decisions is an essential aspect.

Mind first
Heart second
Tools third

michael

11-13-2004, 06:30 PM

Being in CA, what if this was some kind of movie scene and you stepped in with gun drawn thinking you were preventing a crime?
It's pretty obvious when they are filming, as crew members and cameras are everywhere, along with a flurry of activity that makes it very obvious. I was once in an old Rescue 911 episode that involved our SWAT team, and it was a very big production, even for a little 15 minute episode. It was very obvious what was going on.