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Posted:9th Jun 2002Was just wondering what the reaction is in the United States to the new action where men of Middle Eastern appearance who are entering the US will be treated differently than everyone else.

I'm not in the country right now, but am shocked about this turn of events.I knew shit was FUCKED in that country, but this takes the fucking cake. (Not that it's worse than other things, but that it is *blatantly* unconstitutional)

I know the ACLU is in uproar about this, but I'm not sure how much media attention they get.

Anyone on a college campus - any protests there?

I am REALLY not looking forward to going back to that right-wing hellhole.

the soldier thinks: to fight for my country and protect those weaker than me=goodto take drugs=bad

the hippie thinks: to take drugs and expand my perception of life=goodto fight a war and kill innocent people=bad

i dont mean to stereotype, the thougth just came to my head how opposite one persons thought is from the other. and who is right? the people who did the attack on the eleventh thougth that this was the greatest thing that they could do, and we see it as a travesty. who can really so who is right...

Posted:12th Jun 2002"by creating goodness we create evil" to true, no one person is completely reightous. we have all done evil and will do evil. weather we creat good or create evil, there will always be one where there is the other...

Posted:12th Jun 2002" who can really say who is right" that is exactly what i said. nooone can say who is right or wrong. except possibly and infant, a being with no pre-concieved notions of the world. but that can never happen. we can only look at things and think that the general consensus has deemed this act as wrong...

Posted:12th Jun 2002spiral,it has been great going back and forth like this. havent had this much stimulation of the mind in a while. (im surrounded by morons) in the end all everything boils down to is opinion...

Posted:12th Jun 2002just a couple of thoughts here.Politics= dirty, corrupt people. Whether it's a democracy, aristocracy, communism, fascism."Pure" Individuals attempting to effect change in a political way might get elected on their own merits and thoughts, but once they get into office, there has to be give and take. So if you have someone that truely cares about the environment, for example, that person must make deals with other people in order to advance their own agenda. That means they'll likely vote on other issues that are in direct contradiction to what they believe. So you have a 'pure' naive person who enters office trying to make a difference in the way things are, and ends up selling themselves in order to get things they want. You can't do anything alone in this world. In the US, Britian, Canada, Australia, Russia, Germany, France, EVERYWHERE. That's the way things work. Politics takes good individuals and assimilates them into the corrupt machine. Take Canada for example. Long revered for their political fairness and lack of pork barreling (where representatives try to get as much money for their state, issue, etc) have tarnished their image with political corruption to the Nth degree. No one is innocent. Keep screaming just how fair you are and it's just a matter of time before it can be proved you are a bigot and a hypocrite.

Until you can talk the person with the 85IQ (the masses) into understanding selflessness and how great the world will be, we're stuck on rewind. Again and again, doomed to repeat the same things over and over again. Greed, poverty, disease, famine, war, hate are all on repititious cycles. It just so happens that the places change. It doesn't matter how many guns you have, you can't defeat a mob of angry masses. Ask the French aristocricy.

So, yeah, things might not be the best in the US, but it sure as hell can get a lot worse. If you think of all the bad things that the US has done, think about the things it hasn't. All those nukes just sitting somewhere aching to be used. All the money waiting to fund a world invasion. If you think you're 'americanized' now, just think you could be a state right now if it were so desired. (we don't want your country, just your money!)

Chill out, your shit don't smell like roses, either.

"...this is not the rock I thought I was on. I was wrong... This changes everything..."

Posted:12th Jun 2002I was once asked what I would do, if in the event of a war, and conscription came in. My reply was the same as the quakers gave. I would not fight, but I would serve on the front lines, as an ambulance driver, or in some such supporting role, that does not involve in fighting, but does get involved.

Posted:12th Jun 2002going to put you on the spot spiral (sorry)now say you were serving on that front line as an ambulance driver adn one of the enemies cam to your ambulance and was about to blow it up and it was full of children, or young adults fighting that war. woudl you then try to stop that person and involve yourself in that war? or if the enemy came and threatened to kill you would you then say i cannot fight you while in this war driven battle field. would you lay down your life to another human for an idea, knowing full well that that human would willingly go on to destroy the lives that you were trying to protect?

Posted:12th Jun 2002and of course, as much as i agree with moral relativism, the question is how to apply it? hwo do you coexist peacefully when people haev nearly exact opposite ideas of right and wrong?

btw, excellant discussion you boys have going here.

and- even though the ambulance question was not directed at me, i recognized it as an answer i would have given. But i have to admit, as much as might wish otehrwise, that i would kill to directly protect myself or those under my care. i.e. i would not go to the front of the line and fight (that's really attacking, even if it is "in defense of your country") but if someone came into my home and tried to hurt me or mine, or even came into my friends home, then i would find them and kill them. them specifically, not other soldiers from their counrty, or whatever. but i'm not quite as wonderful as i'd like to make myself out to be....

note this applies to a war situation, not to peace within the counrty (i.e. a burglar or somthing causing the trouble.)

Posted:12th Jun 2002"but if someone came into my home and tried to hurt me or mine, or even came into my friends home, then i would find them and kill them. them specifically" when you say them specifically do you mean the al qeida(spelling i know)? i know this is putting words in your mouth. but this terrorist group operates as a collective so in your own words it seems that you sould like to seek them out and exact revenge. is it so different one person to a group of people actting on one goal...

nothing personal. my brain is just having a hay day with this topic...

Posted:12th Jun 2002Spiral you are right, I would kill for that "rag" but I would die for it too! I would jump off a 10 foot platform to keep it from touching the ground (and I have). I would kill 100 babies in a hospital if that ment that I could save my country from devistation. I would let me emotions get the best of me and blow up and people on the net who will never understand and will never try to understand me because they think I am beneath them because of my stance for a "rag" Maybe some of you need to understand that and possibly respect that.

Just a thought if you stive to change politics doesnt that make you a politician?

Why would you fight for someone who is helpless and stuck in an ambulance but not fight for the whole country? It makes no sence to me. I do not blame the Afganies for Sep 11 I do not blame Muslims or anyone except for those responsible. I dont even care about the stupid building or the planes. Those are just things, I care about the life that was lost because someone had a stick up their butt about America, if those lives could be returned I would say forgive and forget let bygons be bygones.

Posted:12th Jun 2002INCOMING ON SPIRAL!!!!!! woah guys this is getting fun. right, pozee. after much deliberation maybe it would be an ambulance I was driving, but getting refugees or the 'innocents' out of the zone. It reminds me of a really good episode of tour of duty, you remember that? The medic was a pacifist, and wouldn't carry a gun. to cut a long story short, because he was a non-combatant, someone died, and the way he saw it the blood was on his hands. I honestly can't answer that question truthfully, unless I was in that situation, I know what I would like to say ideologically, but whether that would be reflected in my real actions I dont know. let me get back to you on that

Posted:12th Jun 2002quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule: Maybe some of you need to understand that and possibly respect that.I do respect and understand this completely, as, believe it or not, there are things that I belive are worth fighting and dying for, just not the same things as you. I meant no disrespect to you when I called a flag a rag (confused by the rhyme yet?) I did not call a particular flag a rag, but to me, in essence, thats all a large pice of material is. Be it the cross of st george, the star spengled banner, or one of my sarongs. I dont have a problem with people like you either, you have your beliefs, I have mine, we might not agree on things, but we dont have to critisize each other, or say that each other is wrong, because to ourselves, we are right. We are still both human beings, and we still both bleed red. I see you as my brother, not because we live on the same continent, or are ruled by the same laws, but because we live on the same ball of rock, orbiting the same star, and lets face it, with the size of whats up there (pointing skywards) whatever happens down here amounts to absolutely naff all. Its a bit like trying to work out how to operate a vcr for the first time without instructions. we just gotta make the most of a bad situation. If we fuck it up, we've missed the show we wanted to record, and you cant go back and try again, because its too late. Without people like you, people like me wouldn't exist, and vice versa. Thats what lifes all about. Individuality. Freedom. For everyone. not just the liberal lefties or the raging facists, or the anarchists, communists, capitalists and luddites. Everyone. I suppose now reading all of this, it becomes clear to me what a circular and tortological argument it becomes. we are constanly changing. Just as I hope reading what some of my ramblings has possibly made you and pozee think about things, be happy that what you and pozee have written has made me take a second look, and think about my ideas, and how I would live them in given situations. I belive everyone has the right to exist. that I suppose is my innermost belief. the trouble does come when you add violence and killing to the equation as this is where my ideas come unstuck. I get lost. You see if everyone has the right to exist, how can I justify killing someone who is trying to kill me, whereas at the same time, by the same standards I could not justify laying my life down by refusing to kill. can anyone else answer that question, because I know I cant.

Posted:12th Jun 2002I must admit you are right Spiral, I must respect you just like you must respect me. I understand that you see us as simbionts (sp) we are codependent, I see things as I am here to provide you with the right to say anything you want whenever you want. I do not like it when people say things that are against what I view as patriotic, or just plain Anti-American, but it is their right. Something I am willing to die to defend... sucks dont it, that I defend a persons right to speek out against the very county I am here to serve.

first of all, once you start killing someone because they are associated with someone else who does wrong... where does it stop? and why would you do this anyway? now, i don't even belive i should kill the perosn who killed friend/ harmed threatened me/friend i think it's worng adn it's nasty and stupid and i'll pay for it for the rest of my life. but i'd still do it. because i know what it's like to know that person is just going to come back and kill you later. and i couldn't deal with it.

and another point, a friend of mine was telling me one day ... if you associate yourself with a group, you take teh risk of suffering for that groups actions. (he was referring to al quaeda (sp) i belive) so if these peopel haev similar goals, and get similar benefits, then they can be held accountable for similar actions too.

but then why does a whole group haev to suffer for teh actions of one person? especially if the group disagrees with this one person? this isn't always relevant, but something to think about. or a few people. you know.

anyhow, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. so fighting back isn't nesc going to accomplish a whole lot, especially on a small scale.

but what's the price of personal peace and safety? or peace and safety for those you love?

i don't even know what i think sometimes! I knwo what'd i'd do, i know what's right, but i don't know what i should do. and i contradicted myself a bunch up there. anyone want to help me wade through it?

Posted:12th Jun 2002something to keep going on...while you guys are definitely on top of the whole yin and yang, and necesstites of war, and dichotomy of being ready to fight for peace zena style, the real question remains underneath it all...what is the war FOR? how ridiculous is the need for a fight? there is the classic question, would you have fought in ww2 against the nazis. monks fought them. i would too. my desire for peace doesn't stem from a fear of death, or fear of killing someone. 'sometimes to save the hand you must cut off a finger" but as far as this war,i mean, the u.s. trained the people we are fighting! can you say star wars episode two? this is how things are handled on a global political scale, war is seen (somewhat correctly) as necessary for $$$$ flow, and population control. how do you feel about that? i mean, the people calling the shots in the battles aren't there fighting, in fact there are laws saying that you can't just kill the leaders, you have to destroy their resources and their soldiers. it's like chess. so the real question is, what do YOU do about it? and remember the words of frank herbert..."beneath every revolutionary is a closet aristocrat" which affected me quite profoundly. i used to be very politically involved, until i realized that i was just another person trying to control others, which stemmed from my own issues. now i try to change the world by example. i live a financially prudent(in that i know my most powerful influence is through my wallet), clean, meditative, gentle, fire (and sex) filled life, to show that it is possible. anyway i like the intelligent dialogue here! hopefully this will spurn more! i would personally plow my ambulance right on through that brainwashed person. any philosophy that doesn't include self preservation is doomed in this eat or be eaten physical plane...but i am a vegetarian too! there is no spoon!

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted:12th Jun 2002Ah, but Raymond, isn't that the very essense of America?

You can only claim to believe in freedom and liberty when you can acknowledge someone loudly advocating that which you would spend a lifetime opposing and yet know that you would die to defend their right to say it.

If someone wants to believe that G-d said that women are to be subordinate to men and run his family so that his wife is barefoot and pregnant, then that is between him and his wife. And I'll die to defend his right to believe and live as he does, even though I vehemently disagree with him.

And believe it or not, our soldiers fight under our flag for -- among other reasons-- our right to burn that flag in protest. It can be very hard to accept that, but that is the essense of what makes our country great. When people try to attack that very freedom, they attack our country just as viciously as any terrorist could. I would never burn an American flag in protest...unless a flag-burning amendment was passed.

The problem is that Americans have forgotten how to live and let live. You don't see people who content simply to hold views that differ from your own. It seems like we're all out to try to pass laws and rules that force others to act like we want them to act. And so some people who don't think it's right to burn a flag in protest (and I don't think it's right) are trying to get it outlawed. And some people who think that Jesus is G-d are trying to force people to pray to Jesus. And some people who are heterosexuals are trying to make homosexuality a crime. These people would claim that flag burning, non-Christianity, and/or homosexuality are "un-American." They're wrong. That's exactly what America is about. The only thing that's "un-American" is trying to limit the freedom of others to behave as they wish as long as their behavior isn't directly harming anyone else.

It's when we forget that freedom means freedom not only to act like we do, but freedom to behave as others do (as long as they aren't hurting anyone else) that we as a nation get into trouble.

Posted:12th Jun 2002Yes America trained OSB and others to fight against a corrupt comunisitic government, did we ever in our wildest dreams think it would come back to take the worlds largest dump on us like this? NO.

War can be both good and bad, it can lead to positive change or it can lead to total distruction. If there hadnt been a civil war there would be two USAs (whatever name who knows) and there would still be slavery. Yes many died becuase of this was but how better off are things becuase of it?