It's now a week later in Haiti. And millions still have no water of food

Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 11:48 AM by Cyrano

I'm sure there's an explanation for this, but that explanation doesn't help if you are sitting on the ground dying from lack of water.

Many countries have sent people and supplies. But isn't it up to us, the "Greatest Country In The World," to do everything possible to fix this?

We "beat" Iraq in less time than it takes to deliver water and food to people who are dying.

Where's the urgency? Where's the sense of this being a life and death EMERGENCY. Where's the sense of a disaster that requires warp speed help?

In the not-too-distant future, we will view this as a fuck up on the same scale as letting New Orleans drown after Katrina. This was not the intention of our president, our government, or others who were trying to help. Nonetheless, the outcome has been worse.

Can anyone doubt that human beings must find a way to solve this ongoing, unacceptable response to human need, misery and death wherever and whenever it occurs? We've got the technology. Could there possibly be a lack of will somewhere along the line?

31. it took me FOUR days to get to the point of despising them. but here i sit

Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 12:16 PM by seabeyond

with you

the arrogance that somehow these people are more concerned about the suffering of those in haiti even more so than those that are doing the work, smelling the smells, experiencing the pain, seeing first hand on suffering.... just boggles the mind

..but when there is no infrstructure, it compounds the difficulty. Remember, the roads aren't passable, the port is unusable, and the airport had to be repaired. These things take some time. Were it not for the U.S., where do you think they would be?

104. I'm fairly certain those actually working their asses off in Haiti

are even more aware of that fact than you are. Have you slept since Tuesday? Those whose boots are actually on the ground haven't, so get off your damn high horse & either put up (by leaving for Haiti post haste) or shut up.

95. Yes, a general who had the foresight to know when the quake was coming

and to have stockpiled food, water, medical supplies and security forces in the right places ahead of time.

Haiti's infrastructure - what there was of it - is gone. Both (yes, both) of its firehouses were destroyed: that should give some idea of how little prepared they were for calamities. They are depending on outside help, and it takes a finite amount of time to get there - once they've cleared places to land planes (and do something with them once they've landed) and removed all the wreckage from the port so they can actually get the ships to do something useful. This isn't like Iraq (and I'm assuming you're referring to the first invasion - we seem to be mired down there right now) where an invasion could be planned in advance, or even Katrina, where we could see the storms approaching.

You're right: Haiti needs a strong person in charge who can get things moving. But they don't have one, and they didn't have one before the quake, when they should have been doing emergency preparedness planning. Hindsight's great, but there are real thorny logistics problems than need to be solved in real time, and that's rarely as easy as it sounds.

after all, we had six months to prepare for the Invasion of Iraq, six months of flying in supplies and troops, building infrastructure and getting everything into place. six months. we've had 120 hours to respond to Haiti. to an event no one saw coming, in a place no one saw coming.

The frustration that many of us have felt with the progress on the ground in Haiti, is not directed at the boots on the ground. It is directed at the decision makers and the politics. It is widely known that the politicians for some reason always screw up everything they touch.

We have a military that we spend trillions on. It is advertised as the mightiest and the ablest ever. So when we see that other countries have landed their forces and gone to work on the streets, when we see search and rescue teams from other countries on the streets, and then we see none of our military forces on the streets, delivering aid, clearing rubble or making security, it rightly pisses us off.

Our frustration is born of recent history. And we are ashamed of that history. We don't want to be ashamed again, so we rightly call for more, faster and better action from our politicians and military brass.

Common sense tells us that within 24 hours air drops were possible.

People are starving and thirsty and there was no relief in sight. Finally, we see helicopters making air drops, water being delivered.

Our choppers must look like angels from above to those on the ground who are afraid of being under a roof.

There are MANY countries involved in this, not JUST the U.S. so if you are going to say this is "fucked up" (you are very wrong, imo)then put the blame on ALL the countries involved. Your deliberate lack of comprehension on the logistics of providing aid under the current conditions of the near total destruction of major areas of Haiti is pathetic, to say the least.

OH, and those helicopters that are providing aid, BIG revelation here, are NOT just US helicopters they are from other countries as well. Oh, and those doctors helping out are NOT just US doctors, I could continue to list who are NOT Americans and are helping out but that would be like talking to a brick wall it seems.

So when we see that other countries have landed their forces and gone to work on the streets, when we see search and rescue teams from other countries on the streets, and then we see none of our military forces on the streets, delivering aid, clearing rubble or making security, it rightly pisses us off.

"Our frustration is born of recent history. And we are ashamed of that history. We don't want to be ashamed again, so we rightly call for more, faster and better action from our politicians and military brass.

Common sense tells us that within 24 hours air drops were possible.

People are starving and thirsty and there was no relief in sight. Finally, we see helicopters making air drops, water being delivered.

Our choppers must look like angels from above to those on the ground who are afraid of being under a roof."

This is all about the US as if the US is the ONLY country that can deliver what has yet to reach the Haitians. "Our choppers...." hmmm, and you don't see why I made the point there are OTHER countries with "choppers" as well.

I have read BeFree's other posts and, much as you want to try and pretend they have NO relevancy to his/her's post in this thread, it is very much relevant to my US-centric post.

You claimed BeFree didn't take other countries into account, a claim which is observably false. And now you claim that this is "all about the US" when BeFree was talking very carefully about how Americans feel or might feel about our own nation's response. Good grief.

If you're carrying over some grudge from other threads, I'm sorry but that's a hobby you'll have to tend on your own. Have a nice day.

109. According to news reports the French have lodged a formal complaint

(I can't think of the exact phrase)with the US, accusing the US of using the Haitian airport as an "annex to Washington". American forces controlling the airport are giving priority to evacuating US citizens and then to US missions rather than giving other countries permission to land. Alot of countries are pissed off it seems with the US handling of the situation.

All of us have been frustrated. After all this is the biggest human crisis in our lives and each of us cares very much. We just see things differently and let our emotions direct some of our words.

I hope we can, now that emergency supplies are being delivered, turn our focus toward making sure that our government reforms its attitude toward Haiti, and in the rebuilding help Haiti to become a much better place for everyone.

54. I'll tell you what. Let's revisit this issue a week from now after

emotions have died down and reality starts to filter in.

My guess is that there will be a total reevaluation of command and control operations.

As far as my "running off like a whipped puppy," no mature individual capable of a cogent argument would ever use a phrase like that. So I'll tell you what. I'll respond to any further posts of yours when you are either old enough, or thoughtful enough to act like a rational adult.

of actual operations... oh in this case that includes the RECOVERY phase, which will last at least nine months. So yes, they will revisit this... it is standard procedure. It will include INTERNATIONAL representatives... and it is ALWAYS done for lessons learned.

If anything I am betting one of those lessons learned, which is obscure to you... are common refueling nozzles for military craft.

The logistics and security concerns are very real, and damn near impossible to overcome in the time frame needed to save lives.

It's just that simple. It's a nightmare to witness, but some things are just plain fucked up, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do to fix them.

This planet is a little sketchy to inhabit. It will throw you for a loop every once in a while. The power of natural forces on earth are so awesome that man is sometimes overwhelmed and helpless to defend itself from them.

36. As you say, 'Millions are without food and water' . This is a huge disaster.

What we need to adjust to is the fact that it takes time to organize and deliver relief. In this country we are instructed to have a week of food and water on hand in case of an emergency. In the poorer sections of our country this is not always possible. The point of individuals and communities being prepared is because in large disasters it will take time to deliver services. This is not a movie, this is real life...and death.

Haiti's infrastructure was very poor before the quake and is now almost entirely destroyed. The airport in Port-au-Prince has ONE functioning airway and no refuelling capacity, and has been prioritised for medical aid flights. The roads from the Dominican Republic are very poor and there are collapsed bridges and 200 miles to cover. The port is closed to shipping. It's a simple question of logistics; how do they get it there? (Simple mathematics for you, by the way, to illustrate the scope of the problem: the average adult human requires approximately two litres of water a day. Let us estimate there are three million people in the affected areas. So we're talking about a water requirement of six million litres. Per day. For drinking alone, not counting other uses like washing and cooking. The USS Carl Vinson has a desalination capacity of 85000 litres per day, which is nowhere near enough; the logistical nightmare of getting anything into Haiti makes shipping that much water in bottled form very difficult. Really, I'd like to know what you'd propose to do. It's easy enough to make criticisms when you're ignorant of the scale of the problems involved.

But anyone who doesn't think there's a command and control problem that needs to be fixed is kidding themselves.

It doesn't take much to grasp that what's going on in Haiti exists because no one is in charge.

Someone, or some entity, needs to step forward. Someone or some entity needs say "I'M IN CHARGE."

The U.S. is the only such entity with the power and resources to do so. But our reputation in the world has been so crushed, that there is no way we can do so without causing wide wide alienation and bringing down worldwide condemnation.

Thank your George W. Bush for having placed us in this situation.

However, when people are literally sitting on the ground, dying from lack of water and medical help, it's time to act, regardless of world opinion.

And how can there be any doubt that we have each and every resource to provide that help. We have the bulldozers to push the rubble (and, yes, bodies) out of the way. We have the military power to put a halt to rioting. And, most importantly, we have the supplies, equipment and people to deliver whatever is needed to put an end to the incredible nightmare of death that is still occurring at this very moment in Haiti.

I find the criticisms on this thread either uninformed, or/or intentionally mean spirited. (Not what you'd expect on DU.)

But regardless of anything else, this has not been our finest moment. As much as we are doing, we must do better. And we've got to do it right this very instant. Would you want any less if you were sitting in dirt, waiting?

...the resources available, or the logistics of and yet you feel qualified to criticize, and then whine at others when they point out that you're uninformed.

Out of curiosity, do you know the type, number, and lifting capacity of the helicopters carried aboard the USS Carl Vinson? Do you know how many trips per day they're capable of making, gross weight delivered on each trip, and the gross weight of the food and water required to sustain 3 million homeless Haitians? The availability of MREs and/or standardized humanitarian rations, relative to demand?

Do you know the runway requirements of C-130 and C-17 transport aircraft, or the flight range of Chinook heavy-lift helicopters? Do you know how much aviation fuel is available in the forward area, how quickly it can be replenished, and what limitations that puts on flight operations?

Do you know how many troops have been deployed on the ground, and the rate at which additional troops will arrive? Or what rules of engagement said troops are going to operate under for crowd control? The difficulty of coordination efforts between hundreds of different aid agencies and SAR teams from dozens of different countries?

Or are you simply one of those people who gets a "gut feeling" and then ignores any contrary information in order to justify your holier-than-thou attitude?

Some of us on the other hand actually have an understanding of logistical math.

The Bush Administration spent months planning the invasion of Iraq -- the Haitian earthquake happened with no advace warning of any kind.

Secondly, if the object is to blow up everything in sight and ask questions later, it's obviously a little easier to invade a country than to get aid to a city stricken with a natural disaster.

There are a million or more people effected by this. Let's assume that they need 64 ounces of potable water each day. Now in the one week since the earthquake, that would mean a need for 3.5 million gallons of drinking water. That would be something on the order of a Supertanker loaded with drinking water -- you just don't get that out of the garden hose.

And then there's food. We're talking about thousands of tons of food, which isn't laying around somewhere waiting to be shipped - and even if it were, it's not laying around within 500 miles of Haiti and even if it were, there aren't enough C-17's available to get it there. At least not within the timeframe you're talking about.

I just heard on the news that the US doesn't even have its own field hospital up. We're getting bad press from the medical tents screaming for assistance. The Israelis have their poop in one pile, though.

It's not like we have local law enforcement, total knowledge of the country and infrastructure, communication methods, nearby airbases, highways, easy access for supplies, etcetera the way we did with Katrina. This is more like threading a needle while holding it at arms length.

108. Not to mention that we were putting military assets and plans in place for months

Whatever you think of the Iraq war, there is no doubt that we spent plenty o time preparing for it and had an entire invasion force wound up and ready to go on command...indeed, one of th legitimate objections to the war was that we were building up that force before we there was any kind of authority or consensus (even a sham one) to declare a state of war (well, technically an AUMF, but you get the idea).

We only see the landing and fighting part on TV. We don't see the months and months of preparation for launching such an operation - not least because it's not very interesting to look at - and so some people like the OP assume that large operational forces are just sitting around ready to go at a moment's notice, all the time.

117. Good grief. No, it's not a wk later, no we didn't "beat" Iraq in less time, yes, there is a HUGE

sense of disaster and a whole hell of a lot of stuff going on.

"the outcome has been worse" than....the aftermath of Katrina because...no one cares enough to do anything quickly enough?

O.M.G.

I'm sure there's and explanation for this.

It hasn't been a week. We didn't "beat" Iraq after many yrs. It isn't up to the USA to do it all. Many many many countries and groups and people are doing as much as fast as they can.

No, there isn't a lack of will but this was a FUCKING HUGE DISASTER! The airport is barely functioning, the docks are not attached to the shore any more, the roads are impassable in much of the area, good grief.

it seems like people are actually doing a decent job. Haiti has no infrastructure, no functioning government, and no resources. What has been sent by the international community is actually quite a bit.

They are actually doing an amazing job and having been involved in much smaller disasters, I know how disorganized it looks from here and it probably feels even worse there, but they really are doing the best job they can with what they were handed. If you can send money, send it, if you believe in God, pray for them, both the victims and the helpers who are both dying minute by minute. If you can't do either, breathe. And know that anyone who can feel is hurting just as you are.

Eleven thousand American soldiers are now playing an active role in the relief effort in Haiti, according to the White House. It represents a huge and swift build-up of forces for a nation already fighting two wars.

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