*** Logfile started
*** on Wed May 16 08:04:45 2007
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:04:45] Join You have joined the channel #xiphmeet (n=sping@unaffiliated/sping).
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:04:45] Topic The channel topic is "Xiph.org meeting channel | http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200703".
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:04:45] Topic The topic was set by fishkandy on 03/07/2007 02:44:22 PM.
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:04:45] Mode Channel modes: no messages from outside
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:04:45] Created This channel was created on 11/26/2006 07:43:32 AM.
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:06:04] Hi all
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:06:10] hello
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:06:25] Join _Ivo has joined this channel (n=chatzill@87-196-212-213.net.novis.pt).
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:06:44] Topic kfish sets the channel topic to "Xiph.Org meeting channel | http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200705".
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:06:59] _Ivo: hi
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:07:12] hey Sebastian; you did come
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:07:41] yes :-)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:07:51] hi
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:08:27] hey
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:08:39] hello silvia
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:08:46] so, everyone, good morning/afternoon/night
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:08:51] moin
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:09:05] hello conrad
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:09:10] the agenda is here, http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200705
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:09:23] please give it a look so we may start
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:09:38] (expecting JM, Monty and Ralph to maybe join meanwhile)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:13:04] siilvia seems to have edited the agenda for March by mistake
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:13:23] the extension and MIME type discussion is already added on May's agenda
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:13:49] hi everyone
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:14:10] sorry, yes - I edited whatever was in the topic :)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:14:48] there's no problem with that
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:14:56] just fixing it now
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:14:57] so, anyone up to chair the meeting?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:15:01] * nessy is at work and slightly distracted
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:15:17] _Ivo, you're doing a great job :-)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:15:32] ha ha, ok
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:15:41] _Ivo: go on
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:15:54] * nessy agrees
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:05] let's wait a bit and see who else joins
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:18] is monty coming?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:20] Join imalone has joined this channel (n=ian@bb-87-81-240-193.ukonline.co.uk).
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:25] I hear rillian may be in transit
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:36] hi imalone
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:52] hi Ian
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:17:10] is anyone logging this?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:17:44] hi
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:18:40] kfish: I can do that
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:18:57] kfish: i guess my client does, since XX:06
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:18:58] I won't have a place to host it, though
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:19:19] _Ivo: good to have backup
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:19:27] _Ivo, on the wiki :-)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:19:43] we usually link to a .txt file
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:20:00] kfish: don't we have previous logs in the repository?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:20:10] if you post a text log on MediaWiki directly, you have to spend half an hour fixing the formatting
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:22:56] ok, wanna start?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:23:07] I suppose so
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:23:30] the first topic is regarding Google Summer of Code Students
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:23:38] is anyone here tutoring someone?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:23:46] yeah, me and derf
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:23:49] derf: awake?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:07] ok, so we have two GSoC students
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:19] the GSoC program starts May 28
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:26] currently they are in preparation mode
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:44] alright
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:46] what tasks did they apply for?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:50] what will they work on?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:52] gah, we have 3 GSoC students
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:25:17] Ishaan Dalal: Sinusoidal coding for Ghost (mentor: Monty)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:25:36] Andre Luiz Nazareth da Costa: Hardware implementation of Theora decoding (mentor: derf)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:25:53] Nicholas Mudd: Web-based streaming audio playlist manager/scheduler (mentor: kfish)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:26:21] the theora hardware guys have been very active, the assigned project is pretty much done already before starting, so they are expanding the scope or so (afaiu)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:26:42] that's great. I have seen some work on the wiki for a while now
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:26:48] i don't know how the ghost student is going / started, though there's much ghost activity going on
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:27:13] and i haven't heard from nick mudd yet -- so i sent him an email this morning to ping him
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:28:23] What is the third project, exactly?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:28:41] a playlist manager for icecast
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:28:53] with ... mashupy .. stuff
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:29:20] ah?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:29:39] hopefully we can use that to get some better integration with web standards
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:29:48] hopefully
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:30:02] the second topic may take a little more time to discuss
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:30:07] has he started yet?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:31:11] nessy, who?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:31:17] mudd
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:31:31] no, no contact yet
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:32:31] :(
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:33:03] has anyone read the "xiph-oggless" proposal, which we are to discuss next?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:33:25] * nessy shakes head
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:33:33] the mplayer docs? yes
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:34:08] kfish: what is your opinion about it?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:34:15] yes, but not enough to have an opinion
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:35:10] * sping neither
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:35:18] * nessy is only worried that it may be inconsistent with ogg or annodex encapsulation
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:35:19] it would be great if we would decide either to endorse this or not
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:35:39] this issue has been brought up some times before, so there's an interest in using Xiph codecs outside Ogg
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:36:03] I think it needs input
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:36:03] and to make sure such implementations are compatible between each other, we should say which way we rather see it happen
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:36:13] tarkin is mentioned
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:36:23] what's a summary of the difference between the two proposals?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:37:08] they are from the same people
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:37:16] and see more or less the same
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:37:28] the one in SVN is far more complete though
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:37:40] see = seem
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:38:30] kfish: since you read it - is there anything you think is not ok from a xiph perspective?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:38:42] well, only that it's not ogg
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:38:49] other than that, it's fairly straightforward
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:39:11] smash the headers together, and look for their magic markers to pull them apart again
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:39:36] that's all it discusses though
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:39:44] it doesn't cover timestamping through the stream
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:40:18] if we were to endorse or produce any document about this, i guess we'd have to say how to transform from ogg to other formats and back again
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:40:40] yes, I agree
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:40:51] which can't be done losslessly (ogg is a lossy container wrt. timestamps), but at least we could specify what to do
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:41:39] kfish: would you be interested in working on this at some point?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:44:16] i don't have enough knowledge of other containers -- perhaps we could work together with the mplayer guys or something
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:44:20] in principle, sure
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:44:39] I'll try to get in touch with them, then
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:45:01] Ralph did put some input on the intial proposal, as seen in http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis-dev/2006-July/018505.html
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:45:57] no mention, though, on Ogg transformations
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:46:25] I'm afraid I have not enough knowledge on Ogg internals to help out in this task
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:47:01] shall we move on? The next issue is regarding the recent MIME/extension discussion
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:03] just a last point on the "xiph-oggless" subject, Monty has said on e-mail that:
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:10] "Sure. I'm for offering a blessing, but I want to avoid getting sucked
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:12] into battles involving competing specifications that we don't have
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:13] anything to do with. That's not an official worry, just a practical
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:15] one. If there's clear defacto-consensus behind an outside mapping
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:16] spec, I have no problem endorsing it."
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:32] so, it does make sense to contact the mplayer/ffmpeg people
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:49:42] if you put kfish and the mplayer guys together, that could help?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:50:33] If Conrad intends to contact them, it's alright. If not, I may contact them myself and then direct them to Conrad.
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:51:56] alright, moving on, what does everyone here feel about the current extensions and MIME types proposal?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:52:51] i like it ;-)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:53:06] ditto
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:53:30] as I understand, we need to register the new MIMEs? e.g. audio/ogg
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:53:42] not everything is clear yet
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:53:49] .oga and .ogv are clear
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:54:02] .ogg is still under discussion
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:54:18] nessy, well, .ogg is already registered ;-)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:54:56] well, .ogg is a file extension
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:54:57] the mail discussion at the end was about making .ogg for vorbis I files only and deprecating everything elses
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:08] yes, I agree with that
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:11] and making a .ogx for random ogg container files
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:20] then we have to change that RFC
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:21] ah ok, that sounds good
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:24] but it's do-able
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:37] my iriver would be happy with that
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:56] without changing the RFC and conformant to everything we have ever said before, .ogg would be possible for any ogg files
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:56:14] yes, most players can only cope with .ogg and the majority of the Ogg files in the wild are Vorbis
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:57:28] so, what I'd really like to know is whether there is software that expects flac in .ogg or theora in .ogg and breaks otherwise
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:57:39] very little
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:57:45] nessy, nothing we can't fix (much)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:57:53] there's few or no theora hardware decoders yet
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:57:56] no hw players?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:00] and much less for Ogg Flac
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:02] flc?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:18] lots of hw for flac, not for ogg flac
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:21] ok, then we can safely deprecate .ogg for anything but vorbis I
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:31] most or even all hw players for FLAC, expect FLAC by itself
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:36] i think that would cause the fewest surprises
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:59:02] ok, so what do ppl think about .ogx for random ogg files?
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:59:09] elite
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:59:21] multitrack hacked up shit ;)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:59:22] :-)
[Wed May 16 2007] [08:59:39] I find it alright
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:00:28] ok, so we have three new extensions
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:00:36] * nessy can fix up the wiki
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:00:57] mime-types then will be:
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:01:03] .ogx - application/ogg
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:01:11] .ogv - video/ogg
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:01:16] .oga - audio/ogg
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:01:49] I agree with these
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:01:50] .ogg - audio/ogg+vorbis ?
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:02:11] .spx - audio/ogg+speex ?
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:02:16] ok, and lets spec these out as "Ogg Audio Profile", "Ogg Video Profile" etc., concerning how to deal with multiple tracks etc.
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:02:34] nessy, the /ogg+ stuff seems right
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:02:59] sounds good
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:16] I'm not sure about that
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:18] somebody needs to fix that old rfc and add these
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:22] every one of those would have to be registered
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:26] _Ivo: which part?
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:35] the ogg+whatever
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:37] _Ivo, it's doable in one RFC
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:04:02] _Ivo: the ogg+whatever stuff is only for very specific things
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:04:09] one RFC doesn't make a MIME Type endorsed by IANA, AFAIK
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:04:14] and we can use the opportunity to fix that typo we found about page/packet numbering
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:04:33] it's just a concern, really. If it's doable, I'm for it
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:04:34] in fact, it may not be necessary in the future any more because ppl will use .ogv and .oga
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:00] _Ivo: one RFC does indeed make a MIME Type endorsed by IANA
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:10] oh
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:13] that's how we got application/ogg endorsed
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:15] alright then
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:19] * nessy wrote that rfc
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:21] we can bundle the proposal together into one rfc, it's a registration
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:24] I'm aware
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:30] :)
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:39] we can also send a patch to the /etc/mime-types maintainers ;-)
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:52] yes, I suggest we deprecate that old rfc (or both if necessary) and create a new one that is more comprehensive
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:06:14] * nessy doesn't have much time atm, so anybody volunteering to help would be most welcome
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:06:15] silvia, will you work on this?
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:06:34] (this is a case of EFB)
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:06:48] alright, we'll talk about this later on the list
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:07:17] I have to go unfortunately
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:07:38] me too soon
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:07:44] damn, I'm afraid I'll have to leave in a few minutes as well
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:07:49] l8r nessy
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:07:56] Quit nessy has left this server ("This computer has gone to sleep").
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:12] there's still a lot to discuss, what shall we do?
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:21] * sping hopes there's an admin left when we come to xspf
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:27] i've got one comment about the libao thing
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:39] kfish: please go ahead
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:47] sping: no one will be here
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:57] this is most unfortunate
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:05] which is basically that if the guy wants to maintain it, he can have it it :-) https://trac.xiph.org/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&group=type&component=libao&order=priority
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:22] great
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:26] no-one's maintaining it atm, it needs love
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:29] doe he have a SVN account?
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:32] does*
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:42] if not I'll contact Ralph
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:53] :-)
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:10:32] I'll get in touch with the guy over the weekend, or so.
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:10:56] the rest of the agenda will be left undiscussed, I'm afraid
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:11:04] most sorry, Sebastian
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:11:34] Motherfish administration is mostly with Monty, or Mike, or Ralph
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:11:39] and none of them showed up
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:11:57] * sping did get up earlier for this *sigh*, was fun to watch nevertheless
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:12:04] :-)
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:12:18] thanks for chairing Ivo
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:12:28] I'm happy you came for the first time
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:12:34] kfish: thanks, I like to help
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:13:02] i am at xtech atm
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:13:10] i will talk to the opera guys etc. about theora support
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:13:17] oh, that's great
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:13:37] I issued a request at WebKit for and Theora support
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:13:57] the Apple people replied they intend to support WITHOUT Theora
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:14:10] I'll try to bring attention on WHATWG to this
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:14:20] as they are not complying with the spec
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:15:11] anyhow, Sebastian, if you did log the meeting, send the log for Ralph to host
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:15:13] :-|
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:15:17] Next meeting as normal or try to get one sooner to address XSPF stuff?
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:15:26] unless you have a people.xiph page where you can put it
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:15:38] imalone: we may try that
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:15:55] if everyone is willing to come to another meeting in the same month
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:15:55] ah good, a response from nick mudd about gsoc -- he's been around on #xiph and #icecast apparently
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:16:03] _Ivo: no people page but since that is mainly admin stuff i guess we could do it off-meeting?
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:16:23] yes
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:16:28] kfish: that's good to hear
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:10] ok, bye all, gotta go
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:13] Okay then, take care all
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:16] bye
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:18] Quit kfish has left this server ("l8r!").
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:18] Quit imalone has left this server ("Leaving.").
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:19] take care
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:28] _Ivo: bye!
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:31] session is over, then
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:42] * sping saves log
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:55] I saved a copy, too
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:58] be seeing you
[Wed May 16 2007] [09:17:59] good