Apache Questions & Answers II (11/98 - 1999)

This page contains all the postings from site inception (11/98) through 1999.

First, Thank you for rescuing me from what would have been a bad decision to purchase
a new (brand X) pop up. After the sticker shock, I remember seeing Apache Campers in
Popular Mechanics as a kid. They weren't canvas, they had hard sides. With the help of a
net search I found Your site. I am now the proud owner of a '78 Cimmeron.

What I need help with is a method of attaching a bike rack to the camper. I have thought
of two possible methods. One is to pick up a used trailer hitch, modify it and attach it
to the frame of the camper. This would allow the use of a receiver type bike rack. The
drawback to this method is the weight and the fact that the receiver location could
interfere with the gearbox crank.

The second alternative is to extend the frame rails and attach a removable free standing
bike rack. I have seen some campers with a square tube bumper. This type of bumper could
protect the back of the camper and serve as a base for the bike rack.

Any Suggestions? Thanks for your help!

Answer:

Congrat's on the new Apache, Paul! I'm also glad you found us. I've seen bike racks on
various locations on campers, including on the tongue, on back, and on the roof. The only
bike rack I've seen on an Apache so far was rear-mounted. It slid off for raising the
unit. It was mounted to the frame. There's now a post on the "How
To" page on how to mount one.

I am the proud owner of a 1973 Apache. I bought it about 1 1/2 years ago. It looks
very much like the picture at the top of the site. The picture says it is a 1972. Can any
one tell me what if any changes were made in 1973. It has a tan box color like the one I
see in the picture.
Thanks for a wonderful site. I thought about selling my APACHE, but after finding your
site am falling in love with it again. James R. Myrtle Beach SC

Answer:

I'm not sure what changes were made between those years - does anyone else know? I
have discovered that the more we use our Apache, the closer we become and the more we love
it!

Hello! I just (today) acquired an Apache camper from my grandfather! It is an Eagle,
with canvas top and sides, and he bought it second-hand in approximately 1975. How do I
find out what year model it is, for the purpose of getting replacement parts? Are the
parts even year model-specific?

Thanks, Michelle

Answer:

Congratulations on the Apache acquisition Michelle! Many Apache parts are indeed
model/year specific. Apache made various design changes over the years, and replacement
parts reflect those changes. For instance, the 1975 model year did incorporate a design
improvement on the bed ends of the hard sided models. The only way I know of to figure out
the year of your camper is to give Ole' Elmer a call at Apache Sales Corp. He is the only
known complete Apache expert/guru on the face of the planet. The phone number and contqact
information is listed on the Parts page. If you explain to him
exactly what you said in this email, he'll merely ask you a few questions about the camper
and he should be able to pin down the year. I wish we had a guide of some sort to put on
this site to help owners make such a determination, but until someone comes up with one,
we'll have to rely on the expertise of Ole' Elmer. Good luck Michelle!

Speaking of Ole'
Elmer - someone ought to get out to Lapeer, Michigan and tape an interview with that man.
I would definitely post it on this site.

(12/6) Reply From Paul
On the door of the camper near the license light might be a serial and model # on a silver
label. Mine reads se2271.5 , it is a Silver Eagle and 1971 seems to be about right for the
year. If you need parts, I have made almost all of my own and would be willing to help on
a limited basis. My camper is on the soft top camper picture site. Paul D.

I recently bought a 78 or 79 Apache, Yuma. I've redone most all and am ready to go,
but I need a canopy. I've priced some at about $250. Anyone out there know where I can get
a canopy at a reasonable price? Also, When I put up my Yuma the hard sides don't seem to
want to fit tight - usually only one or two sides. I level the trailer so that rules out
leveling problems. Could it be the bed frame poles are not adjusted properly? Any one have
any suggestions? thanks

Answer:

Congrat's on the Apache! I believe your model has insulated walls - that's a good
thing! The "How To" page of the Apache Camper web site lists a solution to
prevent leaks. Basically it kind of details the set-up procedure. It's very
important to set up the Apache properly and I think this may be the problem with the
walls fitting tightly. First you crank up the top all the way. Then you fold the side
walls up. Then you put the ends up completely. Then you slowly, gently, crank the
top back down a few turns. The walls will fit up tight into the rubber-lined grooves and
the ends will all tighten up too. Don't go too tight or it'll put stress on the
walls. Hopefully this answers your question.

For the canopy - there's numerous web sites out there that sell canopies. Try a www.dogpile.com search and it will probably turn up
quite a few good possibilities. Anyone else have any advice?

(11/12) Reply from
John
I found a canvas tarp at Lowes for $34.00. All I had to do was run a piece of 5/16 rope
through one side. It took some work getting the rope through but it works great. It even
matched the tan color of my trailer. Mine is 10 X 8. For about $50 they also had a 12 X
10. I hope this helps. John

First off, Outstanding Site. What a joy to find you & what a wealth of
information. We have recently acquired an Apache Ramada for the princely sum of "A
Cheap Bottle of Scotch". The model #S4408, serial #82243....can anyone supply info on
the year of this unit, please?
Rob/Comox B.C. Canada

Answer:

Thanks Rob! Sounds like you've certainly gotten yourself quite a deal on that Ramada!
You can try calling 'Ole Elmer at Apache Sales Corp (info on Parts
Page) and ask him if he knows.Chances are he'll pinpoint the year in a few minutes
tops. Unfortunately, that's the best answer I can give you. Good luck with your Apache!

Hi, wonderful site. I have a 1976 Apache Cimarron hard side, fantastic camper, I get
questions about it all the time. Now my problem: when I try to light the stove I can only
get 1 burner to light and it is so weak that when I turn the knobs for the other burners
it goes out. I have put on a new regulator, checked for leaks, cleaned all the burner
pipes and blew out all the hoses with a compressor thinking that there were cobwebs
blocking the lines, and yes the tank is full. Can anyone give me some suggestions, I'm at
a loss. Thanks - Mike

Answer:

I had a similar problem with a camp stove. After trying everything, I finally went out
and bought brand new fuel - it did the trick! You may have gotten a bad batch of propane.
If you have a different tank (like on a grill) that has different fuel in it, give it a
try. It may be worth the $12 to empty the tank and get a fresh refill. Anyone else have
any ideas??? Good luck Mike!

(10/7) Reply from PaulCheck the lines for kinks , propane only has a couple of pounds of pressure and
even though compressed air passes easily the gas may not. Another thing to look out for is
small spider mites that take fiendish delight in building nests in the jet tubes and
orifices. This happened
to my father so many times that he had to put moth balls in the stove during winter. Paul D.

I am the proud new owner of a 1971 Ramada "pop-up" camper. I have one major
problem though; My "pop-up" has lost it's ability to "pop-up"!!! My
family was blessed to get this camper from my Grandparents recently. It had been
collecting dirt for almost two decades
behind their garage. My Grandparents gave it to us for free just to get it out of their
yard and my Grandfather said it was best if my family could get enjoyment out of it
instead of just letting it rot away back there.

Here's the details; two new gear boxes
were installed three years ago by my Grandfather. In spite of that, the camper was
incredibly difficult to raise up due to the torque I had to apply to the crank to get it
to do anything. The rear right side initially was the only one lagging behind the others;
then the whole front half raised much slower than the rear left. Please help get me on the
right track. The camper is currently in the raised position with everything working well
besides this lift system. I have the parts and service manual for this camper but can't
quite get it to make sense what I have to do mechanically. I am fairly well mechanically
inclined, however I just can't quite figure it out, the manuals seem very vague.

In addition to these problems I have a large hole in the rear right corner of the plastic
road cover(5"by 6") which spiders out from that point. I have read a
little about using M.E.K. and other Fiberglas repair items on this, are there any really
good ways to ad rigidity back into the roof with such a large hole? Also can I comfortably
tow this monster with a '95 Ford WindStar this is the 12' model.

Congratulations on receiving the family Apache! You're very lucky. Having never worked
on lift system problems myself, I can't give you specifics, but there's a few things I'd
do. Hopefully your grandfather replaced the gearboxes properly, and the gears and cables
are operating properly. If this is the case, they should last you a long, long time. I've
heard that a small dent or irregularity near a track can cause it to stick. Hearing that
there's a hole in the road cover at that corner, it sounds like something could be
preventing the track from sliding properly. Inspect the tracks and guides very closely for
any irregularities. If you find any, fix them. An older Q&A posting told of a man who
tapped his track with a rubber mallet and freed it to find a small dent that he fixed.
Cranking an Apache up usually does take a little muscle work, but it shouldn't be too
difficult. You may need to open her up and make sure there's nothing obstructing the
tracks or the cables/guides. If you do determine that there's most likely something wrong
with the gear boxes or lift cables themselves and you can't figure out how to begin, I'd
recommend asking your grandfather to enlighten you with what he did! If anyone else has
some advice, please reply!!

As far as the hole in the road cover - I understand that an
ABS plastic repair kit is the way to go. They can be ordered from the places listed on the
Parts page. It works similar to fiberglass or bondo, but it's the
same material as the road cover so it works best. I believe it comes with fabric strips
that can be built up over large holes. The instructions should cover your particular
application. Our Apache had a crack that may have spread, but was stopped with a small
drill hole at the end of the crack. You may want to do that to the radiating cracks you
described.

(10/9) Reply from DickSounds to me like if the new gear boxes were installed properly that he might
have something jammed in the chain guides...maybe a broken link etc....or the chains might
no be timed right....I would remove the gear boxes and make sure the chains are in the
proper position before installing the gear boxes.....if you get a chain link off or so on
alignment it will make for trouble.

Hi, nice site, very informative, it's my first exposure to Apache's. I saw an Apache
Eagle Five for sale on a farm. It is quite old, is copper colored, has a plastic top,
canvas sides (needs lots of sewing), has a plastic door and one table inside. The old
couple were asking $200 for it. No manuals, age, etc. Could not find a serial number or
date of manufacture. Could not find this on your site. Is this the going rate for such a
creature and any idea how old it is? I am handy, but don't have a lot of time, what
options are there for replacing the canvas?

Thanks, Joe

Answer:

Glad you like the site. $200 sounds about right - a late 50's Apache - style camper
just sold last week on EBay for $350, in decent shape. Gregory Canvas in Lapeer, Michigan
purchased the canvas patterns from Apache when they went out of business. Their contact
information is listed on the Parts page. I have heard a few reports of from folks who had
to send their replacement canvases back a few times before they were done right. Since it
sounds like you have the original canvas, you can try to remove it and bring it to a local
canvas place where they can use the original as a pattern. Or you can try Gregory, or
possibly Apache Camping Centre in Canada? If you want to figure out how old it is, you may
try calling Ole' Elmer at Apache Sales Corp. He can usually pinpoint a model from a
description. Good luck!

(9/20/99) Reply from Paul D.
Check the "How to Buy" section in this site. The most important thing in the old
Apaches is a good floor, as everything is hung and braced off it. The floor is replaceable
but not an easy job. If the floor needs replacing, remove slowly taking notes/ and or
pictures so you know how to put it back together. Keep the origional floor and use it as a
template for all holes and dimensions. Use a marine-grade plywood (no voids). A good temp
solution for a questionable top is a cheep plastic tarp . Use TRIFLOW on all hinges and
sliding parts. It drys leaving a teflon film but dry to the touch. Enjoy your camper and
keep a piece of history alive. Paul D.

I did purchase the camper afore mentioned (8/28). Now the work begins, does any one
out there have any clue as to how to remove the canvas from the plastic top of the pull
outs?It really is in pretty bad shape (the canvas). And how do I find out the model of
said camper . All that i know is that it is an Apache and it is supposed to sleep 8
people. ( it has the two pull out beds on the end and two tables inside that fold down
into beds also) It has a sink with a pump supply system, a furnace, and a cook stove that
pretty much takes care of whats inside the old girl.

(9/18/99) Reply from John
I have an Apache Eagle 8. It sounds to me like you have a larger Apache. Is it all Canvas?
In 74 Apache made a Falconer the same size as a Ramada that was all Canvas. My canvas was
held in place at the top by the plastic trim that the curtians are hung by. I removed the
plastic trim piece with a stiff putty knife. Apache sales still has the plastic so you can
replace it if you damage it. I was careful getting it out and reused it when I installed
my new canvas.

Answer:

Congrat's on your Apache purchase! I believe that the canvas has a thick strip sewed
onto it which slides into a track somewhere on the camper. To remove it you slide it out
of the track. I've only heard this in passing, so I could be wrong. Anyone else care to
pontificate?

Thanks for the advice on the lift gearbox. Ole' Elmer was able to ship them over to
me. The lift system now works fine. I have removed the old windows because they had become
hazed and cracked. Thanks for the advice on that also. However, I cannot get the correct
size window material in England. 3mm is the smallest thickness available in 'smoked'
plexiglass (perspex). I believe the thickness should be 1/16 inch? Could you advise me who
manufactures or supplies the window material in the US, what it is called and confirm the
thickness. I have the sizes I require and may be able to contact someone to get material
shipped over to me, or find a European agent. I hope you, or someone, can help because it
is a bit draughty without windows. Robert Simpson

Answer:

Glad to hear you were able to acquire the parts you needed! Now for the plexiglass...
I know a few folks have replaced their Apache windows with Lexan - can anyone share
information on where they purchased theirs? Good luck Robert!

I just purchased a 1973 apache roamer...as you are all aware it doesnt lift in the
right rear corner...just clicks....my question is.....will it hurt cranking this and
lifting it by hand to get it up..??.Are the repairs done in the up position??...any hints
as what to do ???...i am on a webtv and couldnt download the manuals....is there anyone
who could fax me the pages i needed to start on this project..???? the fax number is
814-371-6051....
thanks...
Dick Allen
1973 Apache Roamer

Answer:

I haven't done this repair yet, but I believe you must lift the top as stated and
remove the road cover to get to the gears. There's a few postings in the Q&A area here
that explain some of the steps. Can anyone else help? Too bad you can't get at the manual.
It can be ordered from Apache Sales Corp for a few bucks. I'll try to fax the applicable
pages if I get a chance this week. Good luck!

I have a line on a 1975 Mesa which appears to be in very good condition. (I have not
looked closely at the refrigeration, furnace,wiring, plumbing, etc. yet however). The
asking price is $1800. Does this seem unreasonable? My big question is easy of use during
cold weather. I plan to do winter camping. Does anyone have any experience with setting
these trailers up in adverse weather conditions such as snow, sleet, dark, wind, below
freezing temperatures, frostbitten hands. Another question is if I get sleet, or snow
melting into ice, what kind of problems might I expect if the ice accumulates in areas
that have to move for disassembly of the trailer? How much of a snow load will these
trailers stand up to before collapsing? Do the plastic panels get brittle and fragile
during extreme cold? Any information concerning winter use would be appreciated. Thanks
Fred Wark fllwark@htonline.com

Answer:

Please look at this 6/2/99 posting for the answer to
the price question. As far as winter camping is concerned, all I can tell you is we've
done some cold weather camping in our '75 Royal and the heater was fantastic. We did burn
through a tank of propane very quickly before we figured out how to properly adjust the
furnace setting. Also remember that the walls are not insulated in the older models.
I'd assume snow & ice would slide nicely off the panels, but I have no first-hand
experience. Does anyone else out there have winter camping experience in an Apache???

I was really glad to find this site. I have a '72 Mesa that is in great shape for the
age. I have owned it since 1994 and it always draws attention whenever it is set up. You
can see some of the older campers walk by stop and look at the memories in there faces.
Now my question. The right front sidewall has separated at the hinge. I see that it is not
available, so does anyone have a good fix they have tried that holds up well? Thanks,
Kenny Fisher
Richmond, VA

Answer:

Are you talking about the main cabin wall or the bed end wall? I know a few folks have
done this sort of repair job before - can anyone share their experience?

I recently bought a 1979 Yuma I whose exterior is in excellent condition. I just
finished completely redoing the interior, new linoleum, all new cushions, new lexon in the
windows, new counter tops and formica, sink etc. I also, replaced wheel bearings, leaf
springs and
raised the whole trailer 4' for better ground clearance. I can't wait to take out on its
maiden voyage. The only thing I'm having trouble with is the metal scissors type hardware
that raises and lowers the sink,stove. The arms are bent and make raising and lowering
difficult. Are these scissors mechanisms still available? I checked with Ole Elmer and he
didn't have anything. Any suggestions on a possible replacement?
Thanks Tony Souza

Answer:

Sounds like you've done a real nice rehab! Not sure about the mechanism - anyone
else??

How do they determine the number of persons rating that they give to the various
Apache's? I see 6,7 and 8 on different models. For instance on the Mesa (rated at 6) does
this assume 3 in each pull out end section, or 2 in the end sections and 2 more in some
kind of fold down couches, or tables in the main camper? Thanks, and thanks for an
informative site:)
Stan(VA).

Answer:

I assume 2 adults in each end and 2 on the fold-down table area. Some Apache's like
our Royal have a couch that pulls out to sleep one or two adults depending on how far it
pulls out. That's as much as I know - anyone else?

Doug, Still having problems with the lights on the trailer. I tried the jumper cable
from the frame of the camper to the frame of the tow vehicle to check for grounding
problems, but it did not fix the problems. I have had the camper back to where the hitch
was installed three times. Each time, it acts great until I am on the road a while. Now,
the left turn signal comes on when it should be the right, right turn signal comes on when
it should be the left, lights are generally dim, etc. From what I hear, it is probably a
grounding problem, but I don't know how to rectify. Does anyone know of a camper service
within reasonable distance of Philadelphia that might be able to rectify my light problems
once and for all?

Answer:

I know how aggravating these electrical problems can be! Yuk! Can anyone help?

Dear Webmaster (Doug?), I have an old Apache, which I believe was built in 1965. The
tail lights and license-plate light have 1965 stamped on them. It was made by the Vesely
Company which is also stamped on the lights. I have found no other written information
anywhere on the thing except for a weather-worn decal on the outside of the body that has
the Vesely name on it and serial number and weight capacity blanks where the numbers have
worn off over time.

The body is aluminum painted gold, the road covers are silver aluminum, box-shaped. It is
simply a camvas tent on aluminum, plywood and wheels. It erects through a system of
levers, hinges and aluminum poles. It erects in a similar fashion to the old set-up
instructions I saw on this website: tent poles fold up, beds canta-lever upwards and pull
out.

My parents bought it used around 1970 and we took it on many family trips. (I am 41 y.o.
today). They then sold it to my uncle about 1978 where it spent the next 18 years. My
uncle stored it in a shed and it saw little use. He gave it to me in 1996 when I did some
badly need
refurbishing: canvas repair, new wheels and tires . . .

This Apache has been a joy to
use over the years, both during my youth and these past three years camping with my wife
and three children, since I took possession. Our current problem is that the canta-lever
system has deteriorated to the point that I can no longer make "handy-man"
repairs. Bent hinges, specialized rivets worn out, etc.. It is becoming increasingly
frustrating to erect and use the camper. I figured there must be parts houses for these
old campers but could not identify parts, manuals or any other information about my model
from your website.

I understand the excitement of the later model hard-sided Apaches. But is there any
enthusiasm, knowledge, parts and interest in the older models? Please point me in the right
direction since I would love to restore this beauty closely back to its original condition
instead of junking it.

In a state of disrepair, Michael J. George Madison, WI

Answer:

Hey Micheal; It sounds like you may have a Golden Eagle or Golden Buffalo. There
seems to be a growing number of folks who are seeking out and fixing up old Apache's -
especially out East. You can call the places listed on the Parts page
and see if they have any parts available. You may have to improvise. You may also want to
contact other folks doing restoration work like Tom Reilly or Jim Lockard or others. Their
info is scattered throughout the Q&A pages. Check the pictures
page to find some of the owners of these older Apache's too. You can do it! Good luck!

(8/30/99)
Reply from Paul Drescher
I have done extensive repair of my silver eagle including hinges lift mech. i also have a
metal lathe and live in s.w. milw area and would be glad to help you if you want? look at
my picture at the top of the soft top campers in this site . I will send you a sketch and
article that i
wrote for doug on hinges. Paul Drescher sensi3d@execpc.com(Webmaster Note: The sketch & article can be found on the How
To page)

I am looking at the purchase of an Apache camper. But the canvas all needs to be
replaced. I am looking for someone that knows about how much all of the canvas will cost
me. I will need to know this to see if I believe the asking price would be worth it.

Answer:

Dennis - feel free to call any of the places listed on the Parts page of this site.
You may also want to email two or three folks who've replaced their canvas. This Q&A
list has quite a few!

(8/30/99) Reply from Paul
Drescher
I spent $600 on a completely custom top for 4 person eagle.

I'm the fellow who was looking for an Apache Roamer with a shower some months ago.
Good news. I may have found one in what was described as good condition in Atlanta about 8
hours drive from my house.

I have contacted a local RV shop about putting a hitch and harness on my '95 Dodge
Caravan. A question has arisen. The dealer is asking about the ball coupler size having
something to do with the required drop. My guess is that they want to know the required
height of the ball relative to the hitch attachment point. She mentioned that 2" (?)
was the norm. Any help would be appreciated.

Answer:

I'm not sure about "drop", but I know that my Apache requires a 2" ball
on the hitch as opposed to my boat trailer which takes a 1 7/8" ball. I carry both
sizes plus a big wrench.

Well I finally took my 74 Mesa out for a camp, It was a little rough, the wife had to
get used to cooking in tight quarters, but we managed alright. I am doing alot of
conversions, I took the IceBox out, and put an electric 1.7 cubic inch cube refrigerator
in it. I am also wondering how to make the bed ends seal up tight. When I take the poles
out and let the bed drop down a little, then it does seal up tight. I see that where the
poles go into there is some adjustment screw, but I don't want to mess with it. Kinda
scared of breaking something. When I pulled my Apache into the camp site, it was like the
circus was coming to town. All eyes were watching me set this thing up, most people there
never even saw an Apache before, They asked me how old it was, I replied it a 1974, they
were amazed to see something like it. My neighbor at the site said it was the best looking
Apache he had seen for being that old. So I guess I have something going good for me!

Answer:

Cool story Keith! I'm not sure about those adjustment screws either, but maybe a
reader will drop us a line and let us know if they're worth messing with.

(8/30/99)
Reply from Mark
The pole screws can be moved with some prep and the right tools. First, one day in advance
soak the screw with Craftsman air tool oil (3.99 a pint) it is very good light oil. The
next day loosen the bolts with an 1/2 impact wrench. That tool can do what you can not
because it "hammers' the bolt several time a second loosening the rusty bolt. Another
possibility; is the jack that the adjusting bolt attached to bent? If so straighten it out
with a pry bar.

Hi all,
Going to be putting a battery and solar cell on my Apache, but I can't seem to work out
how the DC works. Nothing I do seems to get me power. I have the switch set to DC on the
power converter. Please inform me as if I'm a 1 year old, how to set up this battery, from
where the thing plugs in, to where the lights go on.

Very muchly appreciated! Ian Toronto CAnada

Answer:

Can anyone out there give us some simple instructions? There is a wiring diagram on
the Parts page that should make the job easier. Please let us know
how this turns out!

(8/30/99) Reply from Mark
First things first. Do you have any power even with the converter plugged in? If so then
you just have a problem with the 12 volt system. There are six wires in the cable to the
car. Four are used for taillights one for the electric brakes (BLUE)- the wire will be
there even if your trailer is not equipped with them- and one wire for 12 volts DC
POSITIVE. Here are the colors (I am quoting the US standard, Canadian may vary) White is
the ground, brown, green and yellow all run the tail lights; their exact purpose is not
important as you are only concerned about the 12 standby wire This is the RED wire. So
connect a battery post alligator clamp to the RED wire for the POSITIVE post on your
standby battery and slice in a alligator clamp on the white wire. This white wire will
serve as both the ground for the tail lights and the negative on the 12 volt standby
system. This will not be a problem, just remember to confirm that the white wire is hooked
up both to the harness that goes to the car and the alligator clip to the NEGATIVE post on
the battery.

What we do for 'Rustic' camping is bring along a marine 12 volt storage battery and after
we set up camp I place the battery in the LP storage area and hook up the clips. Quick and
easy. I toyed with the idea a putting the battery there permanently but all that weight
would be on the
tongue of the car - bad idea.

You mention solar charging. I don't know about that but once the battery is hooked up a
reputable dealer should be able to set up. Try backwoodshome.com
for solar suppliers.

(8/28/99) Apache Power Supply Warning from Mark
I have noticed a design flaw on my 1975 Mesa's power supply that may be shared with other
Apache's. The power supply has a 14 gauge 120 volt cord rated at 15 amps and a 15 amp
circuit breaker. You would think that the 120 volt plug in the camper on the power supply
is 15 amp also. It isn't. it will run a electric heater (most draw 13 amps) for quite a
while and never blow a breaker. It will eventually burn the internal wires in the power
supply. My guess is that this design was intentional so a small appliance could be plugged
in the 120 volt plug while the 12 volt supply was working. This way the total amperage
draw was less than 15 amps. The problem is many folks are scared of the propane heaters
(if they are so equipped) and are using a electric heater . You will get into trouble
sooner or later - perhaps even a small electrical fire.

I have just bought a 1976 Apache Messa hard side, and i am now looking for a Awning
and
a screen room. I am very new to popups. We have just returned to Maine from Disney,s
Fort Wilderness camping site in Orlando Florida. I towed our Messa with a Plymouth
Voyager, got up to 80 mph and all went great. A very nice fellow showed me around his
fairly new Coleman popup (Very nice and lots of room) the beds seemed huge compared to
our little Mesa. That night we had a thunder storm and lots of rain. In the morning i
stopped
the guy on his way to the drying machine with his bedding, he told me they all got wet and
asked how we made out. I felt so proud when I replyed we never had a leak at all.
If anyone has info and or prices on an awning and screen room please let me know.

Congratulations on the Apache purchase! The best advice I can give is to first try
calling each of the places listed on the Parts page of the web
site and ask if they carry an awning and/or screen room for your model. Most RV stores
carry awnings and screen room attachments in a variety of sizes and colors too, so don't
forget to check those and compare. If you can't find what you're looking for, you may want
to consider making one yourself or having one made. If you look at the pictures from the Eastern Roundup, you'll see some ingenious designs for awnings that
folks have made for their Apache's. It's pretty straightforward canvas work and very
effective at increasing living space. Good luck!

Well, I planned on purchasing a 99 Bayside or Utah on Saturday. However, after getting
prices from dealers on the phone Friday, I called back Saturday and they ALL changed their
prices, Up of course. Yeah, I could go and haggle, but that is Bull and the dealers are
all over
an hour away. I don't want to deal with places like that anyway. S___'s in Columbus was
the worst though, I won't even LOOK there anymore. They gave us attitude a week ago when
they showed us the models and were worse on the phone. So, I've decided to find an older
but Large pop-up.

This one is a 1978 Palomino Hardside, tandem axle, stove, oven, gas/elec fridge, double
bowl sink, furnace, vanity. This is also an hour drive from my house. How much trouble are
these units? I've never looked at the hardsides before, anything special to look for?
Common problem areas? Will the roof and lift system hold an A/C unit? Owner said the bed
end Screens are shot. He made it sould like the hardside windows do not open or at least
they don't have screens? Is that right or did I not understand something? Said to be in
good to fair condition except for the window screens. They have not owned it long, used to
be a friends, and they had it for years. Thoughts? How much should this be worth? How
about compared to an 1979 Apache Cimmeron? Which is easier/quicker to setup? Which has
more storage room? Which would be easier to get parts for? Thanks

Answer:

Well, I've never heard of an all hard-sided pop-up with no canvas besides Apache. It
sounds like it could be a trailer as opposed to a pop-up camper - or maybe hard sides and
canvas ends. At any rate - I'd be very leery about the "good to fair condition".
I do know that Apache made some very big deluxe models. If you want to stay with an
Apache, you may want to check with Apache Sales Corp. and find out what the biggest model
was. Other than that, I can't help you out - after all, this is an Apache site. ;)

Hi, i just aquired a 1971 apache yuma in excellent condition. but i have one problem.
the crank doen't work to pop up the camper. when i crank it up, i just get a clicking
noise, that seems to not be grabbing onto the mechanism to push the side up ???. I'm new
at this, so i dont know much about these campers. me and four other guys were able to pull
the sides up and now the camper is fully erect, but don't know what to do at this point.
please help.
thanks.
John Heim.( New City, New York in Rockland County)

Answer:

Congratulations on the Yuma purchase! It sounds like you may need to do a gearbox
replacement? Read the gearbox manual here on the parts page - it
may very well answer your questions. Also read the posting below. There's a lot of Q's
& A's about lift systems on this page and Q&A II that are well worth reading and
can offer up some assistance. Good luck!

My husband and I just purchased an Apache Ramada in fairly good condition for $550.00.
They had the camper set up and it came down relatively easy, but now we are at a loss in
trying to get the camper set back up. The right front end of the camper acts as though it
is jammed half way up. My husband and I have been able to get it to raise up except for
the last foot to let the sides lock in. We decided to bring it down and now it won't go
down the last two feet. How do we get it down to change the gear boxes. We didn't know
about this web site, but it was on a whim finding it, it has been helpful, but the manual
won't come up for us, even after downloading adobe 4.0.

PS we are a new family that been very impressed with the reputation of the camper we have
just bought and are interested in the Midwest roundup that is in OCT!!!! Thanks for your
help in advance, The Rammels

Answer:

Congrat's on the Apache purchase - unfortunately it sounds like you may need to do a
gearbox replacement job. The manual takes quite a while to download, especially if you
have a slower modem or phone connection. Click the link then walk away for 15 or 20
minutes. If it doesn't automatically disconnect, your computer should pull it up given
time. If you still can't open the file, Ole' Elmer has the complete book available, along
with replacement gears. A few other places have gears too. The info is on the Parts page. I'm glad the site has helped. I'm not sure what yuou need
to do in the mean time to get the top up or down - can anyone else help? (Good Luck - Hope
to see you at the Midwest Roundup!!!)

We have a 79 Apache Ramada that gives me dandruff every time I set it up. The inside
roof and side panels (not made of the plastic/fiberglass but made of some composite wood
like material) are flaking. Anyone had any luck with restoring the panels or putting
something on them to slow the flaking? Thanks
Tom & Renda

Answer:

This is a new one! Any ideas anyone?

(8/28/99) Reply from Mark
Encapsulate 'em!

Step #1 smooth over the panels as best as you can by removing them, then sanding them with
a electric sander. Then 'paint' them with properly prepared (resin and hardener) fiber
glass resin. This is the liquid part of fiberglass. This resin is the hard smooth part of
fiberglass. It has little strength by itself (this is what the fiberglass is for) but as
you are just encapsulating the wood you do not need strength.When you are done with both
sides and edges the panels will be waterproof! The resin costs about 8.00 a quart and is
sold by Walmart in the automotive section

I purchased the Ramada from this web site for $150. I would like to know
what the production run was for the Ramada and the other hard sided models. ie how many
units were sold by year. I am trying to find out how big the market is for the hard sides.
I may know someone who could make fiberglass reproductions but they need to know how big
the market is. Also, were the dimensions for the hard ends the same year to year. If they
were not could a complete end off a 74 replace a complete end off a 78? Thanks John

Answer:

I knew that Ramada would go fast at that price! Good questions about
production run. I'd give Ole' Elmer a ring and ask him first. If he didn't know, he might
be able to steer you in the right direction. Does anyone else have any ideas?

(8/17/99)
Reply from John
I talked to Elmer. 71 was the first year. They changed in 72-74. They changed again 75-8?.
Elmer is to get back in touch. The problem is the fiberglass might be very expensive ie.
$400.00 per panel. We will see. It looks like the 72-74 and the 75-8? would be the best
canidates for reproduction. I am also looking at making new ends out of Alum. The price
and weight might be better. John

(8/17/99) Reply from Mark
Good idea about making new panels, but John, canvas retrofit kits can be had for 595.00
for both ends. The outfit in Lapeer, Mich. that is Ole Elmer's competitor sells them
(Camper parts co (?)).

By the way I met Elmer last week. real nice guy, he stayed 1 1/2 hours late just for us.
He is wheel chair bound but still made an extra effort to help us with mounting some gear
boxes right in the parking lot.

Apache Sales Co is a small place, maybe 500 sq. feet. They supply everyone else with the
gear boxes which they have made for them overseas. They order 1700 every year or so. Many
of the small obscure parts are still available thru Elmer even the oversized pop rivets
that are so common throughout the camper. Elmer is not the owner, by the way. I thought he
was 75 or so but my wife places him at 85-90. He is one spry guy. There was a picture of
him, a clipping from 'the way it was' section of the Lapeer paper delivering milk in 1946.
By the way he has never been on the Internet and only knows what goes on here by what he
is told. My brother lives about 10 miles from him. As a teenager I loved to ride through
Lapeer.
unlike other towns in the suburban Detroit area, Lapeer had people out WALKING on Friday
night. It was so novel that I took my buddies there to show them.

(8/19/99) Reply from John
I am looking for someone who lives in the Cincinnati OH. area who will let someone
from Masterpattern take digital pictures of their hardsided Apache camper. It needs to be
a 1972-1974 and or 1975-1982 hardsided Apache. If anyone is willing then we may be able to
make reproduction panels. Please contact me. John Gottwald jpgottwald@mindspring.com

My husband and I own a 1976 Apache-Mesa Pop-up Camper (hard sides) and last fall when
we went to roll it up to take things out and put them away after camping, one corner will
not roll up or down. My husband has looked the camper over several times and cannot even
figure
out how to get into the gear box, let alone find out what kind of gears it has or to try
to replace it.

We found you web page and I tried to download the lift system file but my computer would
not download the information. I am going to try and download it at work where we have a
lot newer computers and I read somewhere that this does not download very well with
Netscape, which is what I have. Can anyone tell us how to get into the gear boxes and what
kind of gears this model camper has? We'd appreciate any information that anyone could
give us on our dilemma.

Thank you, Vanessa

Answer:

Bummer about the gearboxes. This does appear to be the #1 repair that Apache owners
need to make. Fortunately the parts are readily available and the job doesn't appear to be
overly difficult. (Of course I have yet to perform it myself . . .)

The lift system file
on this site is a pretty large pdf file. It can be downloaded by any browser - there's
really no difference between IE or Netscape. Adobe (pdf) is not a Microsoft product. Since
the file is so large, it takes a long time to download. Some folks with slower modems,
systems, or connections just give up after a while since it doesn't appear that
anything's happening. Depending on your setup, it can take 20 minutes to load! I have a T1
at work and it loads in less than a minute. So I'd recommend trying it at your work and
printing it out. The other alternative is to give Ole' Elmer a call at Apache Sales Corp.
and order the manual directly from him. He'll also sell you the proper gearboxes. The
info. can be found on the Parts page of this site. A different
parts place may also have the parts/info you need. Good Luck!

Hello I bought a 1978 Apache for $450.00. The first thing I did when I got it home was
cut out the back for an AC unit! I installed a 7600 btu - cooled it very nicely! Although
after we loaded it all up and got ready to take off for our first camp out in it, I went
to crank it down and it would not go down! The problem was four screws that I installed in
the channels for the chain which
held the side mounts for the AC unit! I screwed up both gear boxes and repaired them! The
gear boxes were held on by 4 each 1/20 bolts button heads with hex shoulders that were
badly rusted had to cut most of them out! Do you know where I can locate stainless screws
like that? Also do you think its nessary to remove the chains? I really do not under stand
how they work or how they are held and kept aligned other than the tracks! The only other
issue I have is the back panels with windows - the hinge for one panel is messed up. Where
can I get one? Thanks jeff

Answer:

The air sounds nice - too bad about the gear boxes! Check with all your local hardware
stores for stainless bolts. If they don't carry them, they may be able to refer you to a
supplier who does. I'm not sure about the chains since I have not yet performed a gearbox
replacement. Can anyone else offer up some advice?

The hinge you're refering to is
called a "living hinge". I'm pretty sure Apache Sales Corp. carries them. Some
of the other parts places listed on the Parts page may also carry
them too. Good Luck!

(9/12/99) Reply from Jeff
Hello Doug, I was able to find the stainless screw that I wanted - installed them with the
help of my two sons lifting up the top then placing them in the chain and slowly working
them in place! The top goes up and down good now although I still do not under stand the
chains? Thanks Jeff

I went to the local Farm & Fleet to replace the old tires and ended up buying
tires and wheels. Upon arriving home I threw the spare tire and wheel out only later to
find the wheels I purchased did not fit the camper. My manual says nothing about the
wheel. Is the wheel rare or commonplace and is there a part number to refer too. I live 45
south of Chicago and my camper is a 1972 Mesa with the 18x8.50x8 tires. Is there someone
you recommend I contact?
Sincerely, Can'tget Thewheel Soonenough

Answer:

Well . . . . One of the first things I ever heard about Apache tires was "Don't
lose the rims!! They don't make them any more!!" Did you toss out all the rims or
just the spare? I believe that rim was worth a lot of money. Someone please correct me if
I'm wrong.

Ole' Elmer at Apache Sales Corp can help steer you toward the proper tire to buy. I
believe 6ply are called for. If you did toss out all the rims, Elmer may be able to steer
you somewhere? If not, I can post a want ad on the site for Apache rims and we can keep
our fingers crossed that someone will respond. Let me know if you wish to go this route.
We need new tires for our Apache - I was planning on removing one and bringing the
complete tire and rim into a tire store to determine what I need. Good Luck!

(8/11/99)
Reply fromJohn
I purchased new tires at Agrisupply in Petersburg Va. I think they sold the same tire with
the rim also. I also saw that tire mounted on a rim at Tractor Supply. They have a web
site www.tractorsupplyco.com. I do not know
if the rims they have will fit but they might. John

(9/5/99) Reply from Tom
I too ran into problems finding a wheel for my '71 Apache Mesa III. The Apache trailers
need a wheel with an offset center web to keep the tire from hitting the torsion arm. I
first bought one from the Canadian store you listed. He charged me $50 and said it was
because it was his last one. Then, I took a camping trip to Seattle and ended up breaking
a wheel along
the way. I ended up finding a place in Seattle, WA that was able to get me a brand new
wheel. The place is called Evergreen RV. (206) 542-1183. The wheel is a 8 X 5.375 and the
standard 18 X 8.5 tire will fit onto it. The wheel only cost $17! They said to let other
Apache owners know that they can order wheels for them. Just let them know you want a
offset center web 4 hole wheel, 8 X 5.375, with the valve stem on the deep side. Hope this
helps.
Tom - Minnesota

Doug,
I recently installed an a/c unit in the rear of my 78 ramada where the spare tire is
supposed to be. I think this is a pretty common area of install for an a/c unit from what
I've heard in the past. However, there is a plastic shell cover that mounts over the spare
tire that uses a key lock to mount the cover to the spare tire. The problem is.... no more
spare tire, no way to
mount this cover!!! Any suggestions???

Thanks for the help,
brandon

Answer:

Sounds like you'll have to rig something up to the A/C unit to get the cover mechanism
to hook to it. Any one have any ideas?

We purchased a 1972 Ramada(?) 5 years ago for $500! And this last camping trip the
refrigerator decided to stop working. We tried it on the electric and then switched it to
the gas to make sure it was the fridge and not just the electric. Does anyone know what
might be wrong? We also made sure the setting was up, still nothing.

Also, does anyone have patterns for sewing new covers for the cushions on the dinette
and/or couch?

Thanks,
Heidi - Michigan

Answer:

Hi Heidi! Not sure about the fridge. Anyone . . . ?
The existing cushion covers could be used as patterns if they're carefully taken apart at
the sewn seams. You do run the risk of losing the original ones unless you sew them back
together when you're done. This may or may not be a concern. Good luck!

(7/24/99)
Reply from Mike
Hi Heidi - try this I know this sound too easy. Unplug the refrigerator. Turn it upside
down on its top for 24hrs. Then set it upright for 24hrs with it plugged in, then turn it
on. This should work.

First of all Doug, thanks for the great site! We just bought a "72 Apache Roamer
for $325. Needless to say it needs some work, but not too bad. Your site has been a wealth
of information for us (now we know what those strange angled pieces are-the end window
caps you have shown in an older picture). We are total novices at this trailer bit and
would appreciate any advice anyone can give us. We were thrilled to find out that there is
a following for Apaches (we didn't know what we were buying, but it seemed like a great
idea to have all hard sides). We are thinking of pulling this with a '84 Volvo station
wagon. The dealer says no problem (don't they always?), but has anyone pulled with a 4
cylinder? Ours weighs 1850 lbs unloaded. Also we keep reading all the information on
lifting system repairs. We used the manual downloaded from your site to get some
information. The troubleshooting section doesn't address our specific problem. The top on
our unit tries to lift but certain
corners slip back down again. The confusing part is that everytime it's different corners
that lift and different ones that slip. Has anyone heard of this? Thanks so much for any
help at all, we are looking forward to camping without 2 kids and a dog all shoved in a
tent together!

Answer:

Congrat's on your purchase! I certainly wish our Royal had those clip-on window
awnings. They are fantastic! You shouldn't have a problem with towing it with a 4 cylinder
vehicle, as long as you avoid steep inclines. Be sure to check the owner's manual to see
if it can handle the weight. We towed our Apache with our 4 cylinder Ranger pickup
all last year. We even did a 1000 mile trip. I'm sure it adds extra wear to the vehicle.
4cyl's are best for short trips. We plan to upgrade to a 6cyl. sometime this fall or next
spring.

It sounds like you may need to do a gearbox replacement. New ones can be
purchased from Apache Trailers in Canada or Apache Sales Corp. in Michigan - the info. is
on the Parts page. They run about $150 a pair. There's also a
downloadable manual on the Parts page that includes complete instuctions on gearbox
replacement. Scroll down on this page and Q&A II to read some good advice from others
who've dealt with this.

Finally, read your owner's manual all the way through (if you have one) to learn the
proper way to set up and strike the Apache. Apache Sales Corp. may have manuals for sale.
Here's some advice I gave to another gentleman:
1. The camper should be perfectly LEVEL with all the feet secured in place.
2. After the roof is cranked all the way up and the walls are folded up and cliped into
place, you must crank the top back down a few turns to lock the walls in place and seal
them tight.
3. Extra care should be taken to ensure the bed ends are put up correctly. The 'ears' on
the top latch must be on the top-side of the roof 'ears'. The sides must be all the way
tight in the grooves. Some models have separate molded plastic pieces that fit over the 4
outside corners and prevent leaks - similar to the molded plastic pieces that fit over the
outside tracks. Look for extra plastic latches on the corners as an indication if your
model requires them.
You can also check out a posting on Q&A II that imparts some towing advice. (hopefully this link will
work...)

Good luck!

(7/30/99) Reply from Gregg & Kathleen
Thanks for your reply and help. We took everything in the lift system apart and it appears
that three of the lift chains have broken links at the end. Called Ole' Elmer for the
price (Ouch). We are going to order one and see if we can use links from one of the broken
chains to repair the other two. Does anyone know if there is a metal type chain available
that would fit these units? We are concerned about the longevity of these plastic chains.
Ours must have been
replaced before because we have the new style gear box. Do these plastic chains last very
long? How long? We would sure appreciate any advice in this area. Thanks for doing such a
great job and providing such a great service for all of us. Gregg & Kathleen, San
Diego, CA

I recently purchased a 1975 Apache Royale and am in the process of restoring it to its
original condition. I have been unable to locate curtain tabs to use on the new curtains
that we had made. I also am interested in a awning for this camper. Any help would be
appreciated. Contact me at Rmat61@aol.com Thanks
Bobby

Answer:

We too have a 1975 Apache Royal and we're also interested in getting new curtain tabs
for new curtains. The original ones are really shot. We also washed the original curtains
and they shrunk. :( remember - dry clean only!

We have not pursued the curtain tabs yet, so I don't have a definite answer for you. I'd
assume that Apache Sales Corp. (info. on "Parts" page) would carry the tabs -
they look like they'd come in a strip or roll. Just give them a call and ask!

As far as the awning, all you'll need is the measurement of the length of the closed
camper. Most all RV/Camper stores carry awnings. You may be able to find one online by
trying one of the links on the "Parts" page - or any other supply store. Apache
Sales Corp. may even have true "Apache" awnings, but there are so many different
kinds out there, I think most any type would work. Can someone else offer a different
opinion?

Please let us know if you find anything out about the curtain tabs. I'm sure folks would
like to know. Thanks!

(7/15/99) Ingenious Reply from Jason Hinson!
My wife sewed plastic pearls from a fabric store onto our new curtains. Just make sure
they are small enough to fit into the curtain rails.

(7/15/99) Reply from Jason Hancock
Wanted to let you know that I too also had new curtains made for my 77 Apache Ranger and
was able to order the curtain tab tape by the yard from the Apache trailer parts store
located in Canada. I am further aware that Ole Elmer also carries it at Apache Sales Corp.
Also..... I had great luck with Apache trailer sales in Canada. John is a great resource
there and supplied me with new telescope nobs and a replacement ABS telescope cover that
matches perfectly. They also carry tinted lexan windows for all sizes and I have completed
this task and it looks great. Thanks again for this GREAT web site.

I have recently purchased a 1977 Apache Roma that is in very good condition. It has a
few problems but basically it works great. I was very impressed with your site as it
helped me obtain a new gearbox to save my investment, since the gearbox failed when I
tried to raise it
after I brought it home after I bought it. We recently took it camping for 9 days and
really enjoyed it.

While we were camping we broke off the table bracket on the front wall in the bed
position, too many people moving around too much. I need to fix it, but I was wondering
what is the easier way to gain access to the front of the trailer: 1. take off the front
ABS cover or 2. to take out the front equipment and take off the front interior trim
panel. Which is easier and how do you take off the front ABS cover?

We want to go camping in it as soon as possible again. We are a family of 4 , me , my
wife, my 29 month old daughter and my 5 month old daughter. We live in Western Canada and
tow this trailer with a 1984 GMC customized 3/4 ton full size van, it is a very easy pull
even in the
mountains.

Answer:

Congratulations on the Apache Sloane! I'm glad this site has been helpful.
On our 1975 Apache Royal, the bracket you're describing is connected to the sheet aluminum
end piece with rivets. Even if it's not, it would be much easier to simply rivet it back
on. All you need is a cheap pop-rivet gun and a few rivets. Most guns come with an
assortment of rivet sizes. Remove any existing broken rivet pieces with a drill bit that's
the same diameter as the hole. Be sure the new rivet you use goes all the way through each
hole with a snug fit. Place the rivet in the gun, put it in a hole, hold in place, apply a
bit of pressure, then squeeze the handles together until the rivet pops. Repeat for every
hole and you're done! Hope this helps!

Dear Sir: My first time. I was given an old (70 Something) hard side from which to
make a snowmobile trailer. Upon examining it, I find that the interior and all of the
floor boards, etc...seem to be in reasonable good condition. When I tried to open it I
discovered why the price was so low. Apparently the RR lift mechanism failed. '

I was able to remove the gearbox, no problem with it. Heavy, comples and with 4-5 needle
bearings...obviously quite expensive to manufacture. However, the cable held "train
of plactic links" was broken. I was able to thread it out of the gearbox hole without
trouble....but, do I have all of it??? and how do I get a new chain....or get this one
repaired..and then get
it reinstalled??

Also, the gearbox planetary has a stud?? that rotates with the center section. There must
be some reason for it...but I can' t figure out what. Can you help and it there some magic
on how to: 1. Know how many links is "all of them", and 2. How do I get it
reinstalled and working??

I hope your Apache doesn't become a snowmobile trailer and I hope I can help. It appears
to me that one or both of your cables in the lift chain are busted. It would help if you
know what year and model you have. There are four lift chains in this lift system. Each
plastic chain is held together by two cables (lift chain). Do not remove the other cable
from the gear box end
as this will make the replacement harder to do. Also if one chain is broken the other will
most likely fail soon also. Your choices are to one, pay Elmer between $360 to $660 to
replace or two, repair the system yourself for around $175 to $200. To repair the system
your gear boxes must be in good condition. The older type like the ones in my 74 Apache are
made from plastic and have a different timing than the newer ones. If you have old broken
gears you must buy two new gear boxes because the timing is different in the new boxes and
the cover will not raise correctly. If you want to repair the system go to the Apache home
page and then click on the parts and service manual. Next download lift systems for 71-87.
If you are not able to download this contact Apache Sales (Elmer) and ask for the Apache
lift systems manual. He will sell you one for about $20. To get the lift chains out you
must lower the top all the way down. Second, take off the gear boxes. Third get a helper
or two and raise the road cover about 12 inches. One must be careful when doing this or
the old ABS road cover will crack. I took 4 pieces of wood about 12 inches long and let
the road cover rest on them. Now take a drill and drill out the rivets that hold the road
cover onto the post. After you have removed all the rivets at the top of the posts
carefully remove the road cover. Now read page 5 parr. 6 of the lift system manual and
then read my lift system repair in Q and A.

(7/12) Return Reply from Doug DempseyDear Doug...Apache Webmaster: Thanks for the fast reply. I did find the manual and
parts breakdown which were of immense help. There are some rudimentary instructions as
well which save one from breaking more than one fixes...often a problem with
"mature"
equipment...same with my old '53 F600 and my '53 Fordson Major Diesel!! Slow and careful.
If it won't go, find out why before putting a bigger handle on the wrench!

This AM I took the plunge and called Ole Elmer and not only was able to obtain the chain,
hinges, crank, etc...but had a delightful conversation with him as well. He is gem.

When I asked "Are you keeping busy", he said "You know, someone put
our name on the Web and ever since, we practically can't keep up!!".

Of course, after Elmer had asked me a few questions such as color, length, plastic or
metal hinges, etc...he had the camper down to one of two model years!! Equally, he
immediately had all of the part numbers of the various pieces and their prices memorized!
What a treasure.

Darn, looks like I will have to go out and buy a snowmobile trailer. I offered to trade
the camper to a friend for any 100" wide two wheeled trailer last fall....luckily, he
didn't take me up on it. Best regards and keep on campin'

Hi there from Michigan! We recently purchased a 1965 Apache. It's in pretty good
shape, and with a little work, will be great for us. The canvas is in good condition, but
some of the seams are somewhat dryrotted (It sat in a garage for 5 years, and I don't
think they made sure it was dry before putting it down. I think we can put a patch along
the seams, with a glue or something, as that is what my aunt did with hers a long time
ago, but I can't find anything here.
Where can I find a canvas glue or sticky patches? Is this even a good idea? I can't
believe what great shape the rest of the canvas is in! The man we bought it from swears it
is the original.

My other problem is the travel cover. It was put on wrong one too many times, and all the
corners are ripped. I would like to replace it, but we don't know if we want to go to the
expense right now. Any clue on how to fix it? It has some strange snaps rather than
regular snaps, which all seem to be in good shape, it's just the corners.
Thanks for your help!
Jim and Tamy james@dundee.net

Answer:

Congrat's on the Apache! The old ones seem to have a nice advantage of being very easy
to tow. Unfortunately I know very little about canvas. (Hard sides are what attracted me
to Apaches in the first place!). You may want to try calling a canvas shop and ask them
what they'd recommend. Any canvas shop would do - and local would probably be best.
Gregory Canvas in Michigan supplies canvas for Apache Sales Corp. Their number is (810)
664-3520. Based on other's reported experiences, I'd be cautious about ordering a new one
from them, but they could probably supply some good information. Does anyone else out
there have any advice? Good luck J & T!

(7/15/99) Reply fro Wayne Triebold
I own a 1965 Apache Golden Buffalo. When I bought it two years ago, I made several repairs
with a latex tarp patching glue. I purchased the glue in a one quart plastic bottle for
about
$7 as I recall. I bought it at a farm supply store in Fargo ND named Nodak. I would assume
that any farm supply store would carry a similar glue. The glue dries very flexible and
almost transparent. It rubs right off your hands after drying so there is not a lot of
clean up to be concerned about.

While replacing the gear boxes I have created another problem. One of the bolts
holding the gear box to the trailer twisted off when I was attempting to remove the nut.
It appears the bolt has to be installed under the chain. Is there a simple solution to
this problem? Any assistance will be appreciated. Thank you. Bob
PS This site is terrific.

Answer:

Nothing like a broken bolt to complicate a project. My experience with broken
bolts has put me in the heli-coil camp. I've never done this on an Apache gearbox, but if
there's enough material around the outside of the bolt it could work. Just measure the
diameter (and depth) of the original hole, then go to an auto parts or hardware store and
get a heli-coil to fit. The instructions will tell you what size drill bit to use.
Basically, you drill the broken bolt out and install the heli-coil (new threads) in the
hole. You can try removing the broken bolt with a die or other device, but they usually
break and make it very difficult to remove. Does anyone else have any different advice?
Good luck Bob!

(7/23/99) Reply From John Kennedy
Hi Bob, Boy I hope I remembered your name, my web browser doesn't work all that good and I
have to go to yahoo mail to email people. Well anyway, having had my gearboxes off a
couple of times I think I know what bolt you may be talking about. It sticks out of the
chain track after you have removed the nut from it and is retained by a spring clip that
fits snugly around it. I think the bolt is outside of the chain track as mine have the
lots of movement up and down as the spring clips have rusted away on some of them. Make
sure the retainer clip is removed and I think you can just push the bolt up and out.
Getting the new one in is the trick. You may have to remove the interior panel on the
affected end to gain access to the track.
P.S. I have worked on countless rusted things for 30 years near the beach and there is no
equal to a spray product named Master Blaster. You can find it at automotive parts
places (napa?) if this product will not free a rusted bolt you can just go ahead and get a
cutting torch. Good Luck John Kennedy

Gearbox/Cable Repair
I have a 74 Apache Eagle 8. It was bought new by my parents and is still in their name. It
had not been used in 10 years and the yard man wanted to have it so he could gut it and
make a lawn trailer out of it. I couldn't let it happen so I hooked it up and took it to
my yard (1 mile). I
then tried to crank up the top but the cables broke. I received Elmer's # and couldn't
believe that I would have to spend almost $700.00 to replace both gear boxes and
four chains. The camper had only been used 15 times or fewer. I used the lift system
manual to take apart the lift system and took all the plastic links to a marine store
where I purchased Stainless Steel cables and replaced the old cables. The marine store
also had the brass stops and a crimping tool to put the chain back together with. The
total cost was about $175. The main thing to be sure to do is to get the cables tight. It
requires two people so bring a friend. You know when you have done this when the chain
bends. I also cracked a gear box. I repaired this by going to a Home improvement center
and I purchased metal epoxy glue. I have also seen this glue in Auto Stores. This glue can
even be machined. I glued the broken pieces together and then sanded. I have now used this
trailer for 2 months straight. I repacked the bearings and traveled at 70mph for 7 hours
with no problems. I have also installed an AC unit by taking out the 10 gal water tank and
will write back on how this was done.

Another inexpensive repair idea from Mike NovotnyGreat site!!! When I bought my '70 Mesa III, I just thought I was getting a good deal
on an old camper. After findng your site I realize I got a great deal on a classic !
One of my lift springs popped out of the track & twisted on the '70s unique
system. The only replacements I could find cost $85 each, with me supplying the ends. I'm
going to replace it with cable and a length of 1/2 " plumbers snake I bought at the
local hardware store. Swag the original ends on, should be like new. All 4 corners can be
re-done for less than $40. Happy camping!!!

(7/9/99) Cable Hatch Repair
I have another source for parts. My cable hatches were broken and the RV dealer wanted
$9.00 for each hatch and the were white. They no longer make brown or green hatches. All
that was wrong with my orginals was the metal springs were broken. The dealer told me I
couldn't buy just the springs so I bought 1 hatch and then called 411. I got the number of
the company that still makes this type of hatch (219) 262-4707. I purchased 10 springs for
.35 each. To replace the spring you must first drill out the rivets holding in the hatch.
the broken part can now be removed. Next on the hatch side take a knife and pop off the
name ie Cable Hatch. You must be very careful when doing this because they are glued on
and the plastic is old and brittle. You can now get to the other side of the spring. The
spring is three pieces. Two rods and a clip spring. Install one rod and the spring into
the door. This is the easy part. Next file one of the end of the second rod in a cone
shape. Put the door and body together as in the closed position. Now take a fine screw
driver like the smallest one on a Leatherman Tool and slide the rod into place. You have
now replaced your spring. Get some new metal caulk to replace the old caulk and pop rivet
back in place. The last thing is to glue the names back on the hatches. Now you can have
all the original hatches in working order.
John

(7/12/99) AC Installation
The ac installation is complicated. I installed a 6000 BTU (should be 8000 or larger)
window ac into the space where my 10 gallon water tank was. My ac unit was 12 3/4 in H by
18in W by 14in D. I had to cut the interior cabinet wall and fit the front of the ac flush
to the wall. Second, I cut a 12 in by 12 in hole into the exterior and created duct work
that connected the rear of the ac to the hole in the exterior. I also had to drill a hole
in the lowest part of the ac unit and through the trailer floor so the water could flow
outside. I also cut some 2 1/2 in holes through the floor and mounted
circular vents so
air could get to the air intakes on the side of the
window unit.

I started by placing the ac unit where I thought it would go. Next I cut a 12 in X 12in
hole in the exterior. I cut a hole about as big as a hatch first and checked the inside.
I'm glad I did because I had the hole marked too high. I re-measured and made the cut. Next
I cut the hole into the cabinet (take the front of the ac unit off and make a hole smaller
than the back of the front grate.) When done correctly the grate will fit directly into
the cabinet without any gaps. Now drill out the rivets and screws holding the cabnet wall
into the trailer and remove. Now take your hole saw and create the holes in the floor (
not directly under where the ac unit
will be) so the side vents on the ac unit will be able to get outside air. Now take your
Ac unit and drill a 1/2 in hole in the lowest point and make sure you do not hit anything
in the unit. place the unit inside the camper and drill a hole where your drain is.

Now place your unit inside the camper and make sure your hole is in the correct place. I
made a 2 1/2 in hole to make sure it was in the right place and so water will never rot
out my floor. Now measure for your duct work. I rivited the duct to the ac unit and then
installed. Now place your ac unit inside. Next place the cabinet wall back and pop rivet
and screw it in place. Last take metal caulk and caulk around the outside hole for the
exaust grate. I screened the back of
the grill so bugs will not make a home in there during the off season. Then I screwed the
grill in place. You can rivet this but I thought I might want to be able to take the off
so I screwed it. This is more complicated than fixing the lift system but once in place is
worth it. It took me one
complete day to do this project.

Reply:

Thanks for sharing this great information John! I may just have to start a
"Hints" page on this site for this sort of information.

I have a 1972 Apache Ramada. I've been having a problem. Whenever I tow it the rear
gear hits the ground. I see some kind of spring behind the brake drum. But I don't know
how it works, or if I am able to replace them. I would greatly appreciate the help...

(7/7/99)
I found that the axel/springs I am having a problem with is called a "Linko
axel". I was told that it can not be fixed. But I was wondering if it can be
replaced. The tow vehicle I use makes the trailer level but whenever I go up or down an
apron (like to a gas station or an alley) my rear gear drags. I would greatly appreciate
it.

(7/24/99) Reply from Harold
Regarding the rear gear box, I simply had a welder make a steel guard plate that protects
the box from scrapes and it has worked well for 4-5 years. If any questions, please
contact.

What a great website, and just in time. I had almost given up trying to find
information
on my Apache. So far I have replaced all the lifting tackle, courtesey of Elmer. I was
able to get replacement plastic for the windows locally, a bit over the top. I used Lexan.
The upholstery is in good shape, I made a few changes to the interior, cribbed a few ideas
from one of the new Colemans, raising and lowering the stove and sink. Works quite well.
Has anybody been able to come up with a system of setting up the bed legs before pulling
the beds out. I would surely appreciate any suggestions. A suggestion to someone who was
looking for a fridge. There was a Dometic icebox type that ran on 12/110/gas I think it
was available through Coleman dealers , sold up here for around $C400

Answer:

Glad you didn't give up John! Sounds like you've done some nice work on the Apache.
I'm not sure if your bed poles are the same type as our '75 Ramada, but whenever I'm
setting up by myself I carefully place each pole on the bottom pin and let it hang there
while I pull the bed out and secure the top end. This usually works if I don't rock the
camper. Anyone else? P.S. - thanks for the fridge info. too!

My name is Jason and I am a proud owner of an "Apple Green" 1977 Apache
Ranger. The age of the camper has caused scratched, broken, and hazy windows. I have
attempted to use the plastic plexi-glass cleaners and polishers but have seen limited
results.

I was searching the Canada Apache Camper store and see that they sell replacement Lexan
windows at reasonable prices. Local glass stores have not been able to find the thickness
or the tint for replacements. Needless to Say....I have ordered replacement pre-cut lexan
windows for the Apache. Does anyone have any suggestions for installing the new windows.
What screws to remove? How? Etc. Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.

Answer:

You're in luck Jason! This procedure has been described in detail on the
"How To" page.

I need help. My family purchased a 1972 (I think) Apache Ramada last year. I have worked
all winter fixing up the interior, ie: new foam, new upholstery, new curtains, paint, etc).
Actually it looks like a doll house. Here is the dilemma...I made all the repairs on the
inside of the camper
while it was parked in the garage. About 2 weeks ago, we hauled it outside and set it up.
Guess what...It leaks like no other. For instance (this is just one of many) we had a
light rain last night and when I checked the camper this morning, one of the bed platforms
had a nice puddle on it. This is even after I duct taped all the joints just to keep
the millers and
the rain out while I'm working on it.

All I can say about my Apache is that after all this work, I'd like to take gas and set it
on fire. The plastic hinge mechanism for the end panels has decayed and cracked and
doesn't even hold the piece together that creates the ceiling. So, I have purchased
continuous hinges "or piano hinges" and have been trying to attach the pieces
together. Well, this is not going the best, but ok I guess. I still have the other end to
finish but I don't feel like finishing at this point as I can't get the dumb thing to stop
leaking. What ideas might you have other than gas and match????

Thanks for any suggestions and thanks for this site. You really made my day!

Answer:

Thanks for the email Lee! I would steer away from the flameage solution, though I can
definitely sympathize. It is a heart-breaking story. This is actually the first comment
this site has received about a leaking Apache. First of all, you must be absolutely
certain that the camper was set up correctly. Apache's have to be put up very precicely to
assure a weather-tight seal - especially on the ends. If you don't have a manual to
follow, you may not be doing it right. Hopefully we'll have a few complete manuals on this
site soon, but until then - here's a few of the most important points to remember:
1. The camper should be perfectly LEVEL with all the feet secured in place.
2. After the roof is cranked all the way up and the walls are folded up and cliped into
place, you must crank the top back down a few turns to lock the walls in place and seal
them tight.
3. Extra care should be taken to ensure the bed ends are put up correctly. The 'ears' on
the top latch must be on the outside of the roof edge. The sides must be all the way tight
in the grooves. (NOTE: Some folks swear by cranking the roof back down AFTER the ends are
put up!)

Some models have separate molded plastic pieces that fit over the 4 outside corners and
prevent leaks - similar to the molded plastic pieces that fit over the outside tracks.
Look for extra plastic latches on the corners as an indication if your model requires
them. They may have been misplaced or forgotten by the last owner?

Next, get in the camper during a rain storm and figure out exactly where water comes in.
If any windows aren't completely shut into the end groove they could let water in,
especially the end ones. When you discover exactly where the water is coming in, you can
decide on the best way to stop it. Cracks in the plastic are easily repaired with an ABS
plastic repair kit.

The top hinge part is a little tricky. Apache calls this the 'living hinge'. You can find
it in the parts manual on the Parts page. It's apparently not available anymore for many
models, but if I were you I'd call around and see if you could find a pair. The piano
hinge replacement sounds like a noble repair attempt, but it would be a lot easier with
the proper replacement part.

Finally - don't give up!!! It sounds like you've done a
marvelous job on the inside which probably sapped most of your energy. Take a break, and
when you get some energy back - get out there and focus on the last few items that will
make yours an Apache to be proud of. You're 3/4 of the way there - don't give up now!!! We
know you can do it!!!!!

I am a proud new owner of an Apache and would as much help as possible. I recently
purchased a used Apache but the previous owner said it was a 74 but did not have the
owner's manual nor any other info. Can Anyone help me out as far as year and style?
Here are the basics of the camper:
This camper is rusty brown color and has fiberglass sides, with 3 burner stove, Double
beds at each end; Ice Box (no refrigerator); No A/C; Table with facing bench seats; Sink
with faucet and holding tank and a heater which all work great . It does not have roll-out
beds in the end.
I wish we would have found your site with the manuals before. Our system works well but
you need two people to put the camper up. I would like to know if you have any idea where
the serial # might be.

I'm having a fit trying to fix the lift system on my '79 Apache Ramada. When I first
got it, it had a cracked gearbox and one broken left chain. I patched it up and made due
for one year, but the patches didn't last. The last time I cranked it up, the one side
(the one with the repaired chain} slipped down about four to six inches and, in the
process, finished cracking the gear case to the point its not usable. I thought the best
fix would be a complete rebuild on this, the front side of the camper, so I now have a new
gearbox and two new lift chains to install. One major problem, I cannot get the Apache to
go up. Three of the four telescoping posts go up just fine but the one corner that's
always been a headache refuses to go up. It seems to be caught on something and won't let
what I believe is called the upper stop to emerge from the body of the camper. In other
words, it goes up freely for about 16 to 18 inches and snags on something. I do have
enough room to drill out the rivets holding the arm to the camper top. After that, where I
do go to get the rest of the telescoping arm out so I can replace the chain? What's a guy
to do? I'd appreciate help soon since camping season is flying by.

Answer:

I'm glad to report I found the major kink that was jamming up one of the telescoping
lift arms. (If you remember, I was replacing two lift chains and a gearbox. It turns out a
neighbor came over to help me and suggested ye olde hammer trick, but not quite the hefty
hammer trick. The exterior of one of the u-channels that hold the chains had apparently
been just slightly, ever so slightly, grooved by, I assume with a collision with a tree,
post or something. As my neighbor pecked on the dented area with a rubber mallet, I was
yanking on the telescoping arm and it came free. Turns out the aluminum arm had a couple
of burrs on each side of it. We filed those down, proceeded with our chain and gearbox
replacement and voila, I'm a happy camper.
Even though my inquiry didn't receive any response from readers of your website, let me
say, it's a godsend. A couple of weeks ago I was ready to trash my Apache with a cracked
and totally useless gearbox. Finding your website with its sources for new parts and all
the excitement folks have about their Apaches has certainly changed my way of thinking
about my Apache, which incidentally, was essentially a freebie to my family from two
couples who used it for years as a weekend retreat at a friend's farm pond. Again, thanks
so much and pass along this tip about how fragile those u-channels carrying the lift
chains are. They certainly don't take well to dents, no matter how small.

Hello,
I have aquired a 1963 Apache camper, but after setting up the beds, and looking at the
canvas, found it to be in horrible condition. Wondering if there is anyone who has
information on this *very* old ( but beloved ) tent trailer. I'm not sure what the NAME of
the trailer is, how can I find out what model I have? It is similar to the one on the
site, which is a RAVEN, but I'm not that knowledgeable (sp?) with Apache trailers. The
trailer we have is the same as the RAVEN, compared to the web site manual, but does not
*quite* look like the one pictured.

Anyway, we're really excited about this little trailer, as the rest of it is in fair
shape, and we're dedicated to reviving it to useable condition. In the NY area, we're
looking to replace the canvas and get more information about parts for this little
wonderful trailer.

Thanks in advance, Scott Fleming

Answer:

Sounds like a good one for Jim Lockard or Tom Reilley. They've both been restoring their
1960's Apache's and can probably help steer you in the right direction. Guys? Anyone?

Hi everyone,
A little while ago I posted a message about "Apache and/or Pop-Up E-Mail list?"

Well, this is going out to everyone that contacted me. I found an existing E-Mail list on
"Camping" I have subscribed to it. You can join this list by going to:http://www.onelist.com/viewarchive.cgi?listname=Camping
Also, I will be adding (soon) a "Camping" page at my Homepage:http://www.angelfire.com/al/v65animal/index.html
I plan on putting pictures of the camper, the sites and attractions I go to. I would also
like to "link" anyone elses page that has camping information. I would also be
willing to create a "Camping Recipe List" on my page, just send your recipies.

We just took our first trip in the Apache (canvas) Ramada this weekend. (Otter Creek, KY,
Paton Musuem, GoKart Kountry) No problems. (well Road Construction!) We will be leaving
again Thursday night after work to camp at the Cedar Point campgrounds. Trip reports to be
on my web page A.S.A.P. Should be by Saturday June 26th. Thanks and happy camping!
F. Sam Woodson

I've noticed some places underneath my '78 ramada where the floor is beginning to pull
away. Do you have any suggestions for an undercoating? I think this is from water, the
previous owner had it stored in and around high grass. Also, I'm getting close to
completing my new paint-job. I have had all the decals made to original specs. It will be
emerald green metallic with autumnwood metallic decals. I will find a scanner and send you a picture when
complete.

Thanks for your help!!! The website looks great!!

Answer:

I've heard of various types of undercoating sprays that are effective at waterproofing
undercarriages, but I don't have any specifics for you. You may want to try the Airstream
link on the new Apache-ish Links page. They do discuss a number of
various restoration techniques, and undercoating could be one of them. Otherwise, I'd
probably go to an auto parts store and read the applications on the various undercoating
cans. One or more is bound to cover wood and/or campers. Does any one else know more about
this? I look forward to seeing a picture of your newly painted Apache! Thanks for the nice site
comments - good luck with the undercoating!

6/12 Reply from Tom in MN.:
---------------------------------------------
Hi,
I just painted the frame on my 1970 Mesa III with a paint that many of the auto restorers
use. It is called POR-15. They have a website at www.por15.com.
It is a very good paint for rusted undercarriages. You paint it right over the rust and it
forms a very hard surface and prevents further rusting. You can use any good wood deck type waterproofing paint for the plywood base.
Tom, Plymouth, MN

My Apache Eagle Six is having problems with the lights, again. Last year,
we had it serviced for the lights three times. We had a tail light replaced, and some new
wiring and grounding done. I'm not sure of all the details. On our way back home in a rain
storm, we lost all the lights. We brought it back to service and it was working OK before
the long winter. Now, we have one front marker light out, but the bulb is OK. We have one
turn signal working fine, but when we turn on the other, both tail lights begin to flash.
What is going wrong? There is so much inconsistency in how the lights act, I am afraid to
get on the road.

Nancy Jackson
Philadelphia, PA

Answer:

Good to hear from you again Nancy - not good to hear you're still having
electrical problems. Perhaps you can bring the camper back to the place that serviced it
and have them fix it properly, unless you've had about enough with them, which sounds like
it might be the case. I wish I had a better answer for you, but perhaps a reader will have
some advice on what to do. Anyone???? (Good luck Nancy!)

6/11/99 Answer from Jim
LockardJRLockard@enter.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe the problem with the lights, based upon the information given, is a poor ground,
not a short. I believe a short would cause the fuse to burn out. A poor ground would cause
the lights to go out, blink as described, and would not be detected as a short. I have
(and have had)
several trailers (boat, campers, cargo) and USUALLY, when there is a symptom of using the
turn signal and either both, or all lights, flashing, it has usually been resolved by
addressing a ground problem. For example: My 1966 Raven had the same symptoms. Going out
for no
reason, lights that shouldn't be flashing or blinking are, dim lights, no fuses burned
out. The framework (tonge, springs, axle, etc) are totally isolated from the aluminum
camper box. There is plywood secured to the framwork, and the box is secured to that
plywood around the
perimeter. Since the Raven has NO cabinets or double walls, it was easy to trace the
wiring. There is a ground wire that attaches to one of the gussetts inside the body. The
wiring configuration that pre-existed on the trailer when I picked it up had that wire
going to the vehicle flat four plug connection. Unfortunately, the newer vehicle
configuration doesn't include a ground connection on my vehicle (it is a hot wire
instead). I installed a new grounding wire between the framework and the body and all of
the symptoms have disappeared. I used a short piece of #14 stranded wire (typical trailer
wiring stuff) with appropriate terminals on the ends to screw it to the metal. The ground
connection between the vehicle and the trailer is made through the hitch. You may need to
have the trailer connected to the vehicle to validate my suggestion, not just close enough
for the wires to connect.

Greetings to all. The first section is information I pulled from this site about
models and years. There is still a lot of missing models in the pre-N.A.D.A section. Many
people have posted in this site and have not said the year and or model they have, so let
me know and I'll update. Also does anyone have some old N.A.D.A books from the 1950's,
1960's and the 1970's and can snail mail me a Xerox copy of the Apache pages to update
this information. I would also like to know the measurements like the second N.A.D.A
section below if you have them.
If I didn't include someone and their rig its because the model and year were already
listed (I think?). Please don't feel bad if you were left out.

The second section is from the N.A.D.A site http://www.nadaguides.com/ValuesHome.html
and shows the 1978-1987 models. We found an error in the guide, our 1978 Yuma is not
listed in the 78 section. We know the year and model is right because the sticker from the
manufacture is still attached to the outside back wall.

Peter Swanson has a ???
John M. Hale has a ???Eagle (canvas sides)
tlester has a ??? War Eagle (canvas sides)
Todd Brown has a 1965 Raven (canvas sides)
Jim Lockard has a 1966 Raven
Tom Reilley has a 1966 Golden Buffalo (canvas sides)
Dave Mallinger has a 1966 Ramada
Scott Simmons has a 1968 Raven
F. Sam Woodson has a 1968 Ramada (canvas sides)
John & Til has a 1968 Eagle (canvas sides) We happen to have the 1969
catalog by the way. The models that year were the Ramada; Mesa I, II, and III; Buffalo II;
Eagle; Falcon; Chief; and Scout.
jcad has a 1969 Ramada (canvas sides)
Stephen Hoch has a 1971 Ramada
Rich Turner has a 1972 Mesa Jim Strong's is (hard side)
Kevin Pickett 1972 Ramada
Dale Rogers1972 Raven (canvas sides)
Kelly and Bill Parmenter has a 1974 Eagle Eight (canvas sides)
David Green 1973 Royal
Steve & Ted Taylor has a 1973 EAGLE 8 (canvas sides)
davidg has a 1974 Royal
Dennis has a 74 Ramada (a few people have this one)
Doug has a 1975 Royal (hard side) also his book lists the Ramada, Roamer, Eagle 8, Mesa,
then Eagle 600
Shawn O'Daffer has a 1975 Mesa (canvas sides)
River Rat Harry 1975 Royal (hard side)
Paul Humphreys test drove a 1976 Royal
Keith Willcox has a 1976 Ramada
oysters 1977 Ramada (hard sided)
John Kennedy 1977 Ramada or is it a Cimarron you've writen both names
(hard side)
Kathy & Harold Tracy & Irene & Robert L each have 1978 Yuma (hard side)
even though it is not listed in the N.A.D.A. guide

Thanks for the great information! The N.A.D.A. guide link is a great tool to figure
Apache values - too bad it only lists the later years. I listed the measurements on the Weights / Specifications page for consistency. Thanks again!

The main thing to consider is the condition of the camper and the features it has or
doesn't have, and your geographic location (supply/demand). Let me give you this
information for a comparison: I'm in Chicago, and we paid $1400 for our 1975 Apache Royal
in very good condition. It's big, has all hard sides, a sink with 2 faucets, stove,
propane tanks, propane heater, attached awning, power converter, extra electrical sockets,
2-speed vent fan, folding couch, sleeps 7, and included lots of extras like a porta-potty,
party lights, spare keys, owners manual, etc, etc.. It was bought from the original owner
who took great care of it. It did have a few blemishes, but not many.

I've heard of Apaches ranging from free to $300 to $3000. Generally, a canvas model is not
worth as much as a hard-sided model. The question you need to answer is, what's it worth
to you? Just remember - a new camper probably won't even be around in 2027 - they just
don't make them as solid as the old Apache's! So good luck - hope this helps at least a
little!

I have an Apache War Eagle that I'm looking for info on. This camper is green and has
canvas sides, brown interior with 3 burner stove, sink and ice box. I bought this camper
used and do not know what year it is. Does anyone know anything about this make of
Apache?? I managed to get the state of ct to register it last year without knowing the
year or vin number. They list it as a 1989 model, but that can't be true if the Veselli
corporation which manufactured it went out of business in the 70's. tlester@snet.net

Answer:

Well, it's definitely not a 1989 model. Apache made campers up to 1986. You can try this link for help with locating your vehicle identification
number. Otherwise, Ole' Elmer may be able to shed some light on
the year. Good luck!

I just bought a 1968 Apache "Ramada" canvas pop-up camper in very good
condition. The box is 12' 6" it opens with a full bed at both ends. It also has two
other beds and can sleep a total of 8 people. It came with a 12' awning that zips to the
main canvas. The rest of the camper is aluminum, except the plywood floor. This camper
also has brakes. However, the previous owners had it for 8 to 10 years and never used
them. It has canvas all around but comes with 2 clear plastic windows that can be zipped
in, so that the entire side opposite the door becomes a window. It will be nice to see out
in the rain and not just stare at the canvas.

The canvas is in too good of a condition to be the original. However, the previous owners
did not replace it in the last ten years, so it is not new either.The camper had a water
storage tank and a pump for the water faucet. There was NOT a way to just hookup a hose to
the camper. I tried out the pump; it worked, but squirted more on the counter than in the
sink. (leak) I was not too thrilled with the pump anyway.

So, I went to the local RV dealer and bought a kit to hook up a hose to the camper. It had
the typical metal plate with a female hose connection on the outside. Then on the inside
it has a ½" female connection. I then thought about getting a standard bathroom sink
faucet. However, I was pretty sure that they would be too tall, and not clear when the
camper is folded down. So, I just got a sprayer, like you use on the kitchen sink. I
hooked it up and it works great. You can not turn the outside faucet on to high though, or
the sprayer will really spray. I mean like 10 - 15 feet. Total cost about $35. Now with
this inplace, I removed the water storage tank. We now have a little more storage area. We
will not be camping with out
water and electric hookups, so this is not a problem. Even if we have to, we would only go
to a campground with hot showers, so we would just do all the water stuff from there.

The electric hook up has two prongs sticking out the back of the camper. You just hook the
female end of an extension cord up to it. Then on the inside it gets kind of
weird/homemade. You have another cord that plugs into a female receptacle. That cord is
attached to a breaker box (just loose, not attached to the camper) with a 15 Amp fuse
inside. From there you have two cords coming out. This is your electrical connection. They
have a 3-outlet adapter on the one cord for a total of 4 outlets.

So, does this sound like original Apache equipment to anyone? I am seriously considering
running some real electrical lines and having about 3 outlet boxes mounted inside the
camper. Possibly another with a WET area location type of outlet for the outside by the
door. What do you think?

The plywood floor is in good condition, but I still plan to coat it with some kind of
tar/undercoating. On the Nomad I had before, we took a 6.5 hour drive in the rain. The
water "wicked" through the floor and got my friends clothes wet. (They were in a
cloth bag on the floor of the camper.) So, I'll avoid this from the start this time.

Now the questions.

1.) This camper has 110V AC power only, no DC. So, what about lights? All the typical RV
lights are 12V DC. Where can I get an AC to DC rectifier? I know I can get the little ones
that run video games and such for about $8 each. But where can I get one large enough to
run a few lights? What about one of the boxes that you run Low Voltage outdoor house
lights with? Like Intermatic or Toro lights? Or should I just run some electric wiring
inside and use
standard 110V AC light fixtures? I also thought about one of the outside lights by the
door. High or low mount, which is best?

2.) The roof is also aluminum, it is unpainted. What do you think about putting "Snow
Roof" or a similar white rubber roof product on it? I am thinking it would make it
cooler and also help deaden the sound when it rains.

3.) Do you know how much weight the lift system will support? Can I put on a roof A/C
unit?

4.) Will the roof support a typical roof mount bicycle rack? (4 bikes) There is nothing on
the roof but the aluminum cross members and the thin "sheet metal" layer of
aluminum on top.

5.) What should I do about the brakes? How do I know if they will work? Do I have to buy
one of "those" boxes for my tow vehicle or do they just run off the electric
"light" wiring hookup. Currently, the camper has a standard 4 prong harness.
There is a separate 2-prong harness that I assume is the brakes.

6.) This camper has two brake lights, but NO side marker lights. Should I add some? If so,
what colors are they supposed to be?

7.) Finally, the wiring harness. When I get the hitch on the tow vehicle (I towed it home
with Dad's truck) I will want to get the 7-plug harness, I guess. So, when I convert the
camper to a 7 plug, which plug is which on the 7 plug and the 4 plug? Where should the
marker lights go, the brake, and the park lights, also what about the brake wires on the
camper I mentioned
earlier?

I've previously owned a Old NOMAD (probably a 68 or so) a 1956 Hi-Lo (only about 10' long)
and a 1991 Jayco (12' box, queen bed, A/C, furnace, in/out table and stove) This Apache
impressed me the way it cranks up and all compared to all three of the others.

On the Apache, the door is one piece, the Jayco was a two piece, and I think the Nomad was
too. (It's been 10 years ago) The bed poles stay attached to the Apache and fold away
underneath the beds for storage. The Jayco poles had to be stored inside the camper. The
exterior door on the Apache turns into a step when opened. The Jayco had a separate step,
and it was easy to forget to put it up when you left. The sink and some other things on
the Jayco had to be FOLDED down, to close up the camper. The Apache folds up with the sink
and ice box in their upright positions, even though they are taller than the sides of the
camper. (The beds don't butt together when folded up like the Jayco and Nomad.) The Apache
also has a nice crank and wheel on the hitch that folds up out of the way when traveling.
The Jayco had a long pole that hung down and the wheel just pinned into the pole. Even
with the pole all the way up, it was close to hitting the ground on some bumps, etc

The Jayco's roof sprang a leak in the seam down the middle the first winter I stored it. I
did not know until spring when I opened it up. I found a hole rotted through a spot on the
canvas and a large spot around the hole was weakened. There were close to 20 Million ants
in the camper, and the curtains had also molded and developed holes from the dampness of a
full winter. The Apache's roof is a solid section, no seams to leak! I guess actually I'm
just pointing out the Jayco's faults and it cost $4,500 where the Nomad was $250 in 1989,
the Hi-Lo $250 in 1993 and now the Apache only $550 in 1999.

Well, that's about it. I'm looking forward to using this camper. It really is well made.
Thanks in advance for any information. F. Sam Woodson, Network Engineer
Gahanna, OH

Answer:

Congrat's on the Apache. Not sure what's original and what's not.

1. The previous
(original) owner of our Apache ran electrical outlets all over the place inside and out.
They really come in handy. Ours has an AC/DC converter built in, but we tend to use the
110V outlets most often. We use a small AC lamp when camping as it puts off a nicer light
than the overhead 12V. We also use an AC oscillating fan in the summer, and a big
box fan for really hot nights.

2. Coating the aluminum roof sounds like a good idea. Anyone out there ever try this?

3 & 4. Not sure about the roof AC unit OR bike rack either. Anyone?

5. Our Apache needs a separate control box in the tow vehicle to operate the brakes.
Not sure about yours, but I would guess this would be the case. We still haven't hooked it
up since we anticipate a tow vehicle change sometime soon.

6. Our Apache side lights are all orange. Side lights help you keep an eye on things
when driving at night, and are also a good safety device.

7. A new 7 prong wiring harness should come with a sheet explaining which wire goes
where.

If you really need to find an answer to these, you may want to try calling Ole' Elmer. Have your questions prepared because he is a busy man.
Good luck!

Greetings from the land of the Apache birth (Michigan). We recently purchased a 78
Yuma hard side and found that the long propane hose that runs under the box was not
attached to the frame at the axle. It was laying against the top of the axle and the hose
has worn past the inner wire safety mesh. Also the regulator was attached to the frame
where it was exposed to road debree. It should be attached up higher next to the shoulders
of the propane tanks. We went to a commercial propane distributor to have a new hose made.
We added two extra feet to the hose so that we could move the regulator where it needs to
be. The hose was not available off the shelf at the RV stores. The connections are set up
differently. An original Apache dealer who still services Apaches in our area says that
the hose laying on the axle was quite common in all the models. Robert & Irene L. beahold@yahoo.com

Answer:

Thanks for the 'heads up'! It sounds as if we should all take a good look at our
propane hose system that runs under the box of our Apache's. This would be a real bad spot
for a leak. The few minutes it will take to inspect the propane hose will be well worth
it. Thanks again!

Hello fellow Apache owners, here goes another summer of getting my Eagle Eight in
shape!!! Pray for me! I love my Eagle and wont give it up so..... Has anyone ever
replaced the canvas(EAGLE 8 Canvas sides, 1973)? I am going to give it a whirl this year
and am wondering if anyone has had a GOOD experience with an Apache canvas place. How much
might it cost? Is it a tough job? Any pitfalls? I have run the gammet of the chains and
gear boxes as well as rewiring, I have all sorts of cool tips for getting old chain pieces
out of the channels. Anybody needing help email me. Thanks in advance for any info
regarding the canvas. Steve T.

Answer:

Well Steve, Thomas Reilly just got a brand new canvas replacement for his 1966 Golden
Buffalo from Apache Sales Corp. He actually sent in his old one as a pattern so it would
be exact. He just got it, so it's going to be a couple weeks before he gets to try it out
and let us know how it works. His email address is pabktl@banet.net

I'm considering purchasing a '74 Ramada from my sister that she bought from my father
who bought it new in '74. I'd like to keep the family tradition rolling. I think the
camper could desparately use a paint job on the body. The original green is extremely
faded and weathered. Do you have any suggestions as to whether or not I should have it
repainted? I haven't been in the camper for about 2 years but from what I remember it was
still in
great shape. Thanks for any suggestions. Dennis

Answer:

What a great opportunity! I know exactly what you mean with the weathered green paint
since our green '75 Apache looked the same way too. I believe the technical term is
oxidation. It's like a pastey film is covering the once shiney proud grass-green color.
That was a very popular color in the mid-to-late 70's! (We once had a VW Campmobile
the exact same color . . . ) Anyways, before you cover the original paint with a
time-consuming, expensive paint job, try removing the oxidation and see how it looks. I
did ours by hand using lambs-wool pads and Turtle Wax. It was a tough job but the original
green came shining through. (I actually only did the front side so far. . .) I've
been told that the job is a breeze with an electric (or air-powered) buffer. You place a
fresh pad on and some special oxidation-removing compound and let the rotating pad do all
the work instead of your arms and hands. I've seen these power buffers run around $60 -
$80 or more. I'm considering getting one so I can finish the job I've started. It can also
be used for cars, etc. Remember that Apache exteriors are anodized aluminum. So, I'd try
doing a buff / wax job first, then if you still don't like it, consider a paint job. I'm
sure painting it would be a lot more work than buffing though . . . Good luck Dennis! Let
us know what happens!

(REPLY From Dennis 6/6/99)
Well I did it, I bought the Camper from my sister. It is a '75 Ramada not a '74 as I
stated in my original email regarding the paint job. I have all of the original owners'
manuals as well the service manual for the brakes. I also have the price sheet and options
list from the dealer here in Chicago from '75. I'll see what I can do about getting them
scanned in, and also
saved in PDF for your web site. (I'm very fimilar with preparing images for the web, as
well as PDF's.) Thanks for the great web site. The exchange of information among this
great group of peolpe is fabulous! BY the way I think I'll paint the camper, the body and
the door have faded in different directions, one's darker, one's lighter. Luckily, my
brother-inlaw is a body and fender guy. He'll do it for me on the side. Thanks! I look
forward to the Apache Roundup!
Dennis

Hey fellow APACHE owner and guru of all that is hardside camping! I just finished
changing the windows in my 1977 ramada and thought I would send along how it got done. My
camper does not have rubber holding the windows in. There is a piece of extruded aluminum
on each
end of the window and the window slides in a track top and bottom. I cranked the top up
then went inside. While lifting the end of the wall I was able to slide the roller
assembly that holds each end of the wall, toward the outside of the camper top. There is a
notch in the track that allows you to remove the rollers from the track. A helper to hold
the disconnected end while you do the other end is required. Lay the wall down on a
support in your camper (wood blocks, whatever). Once you have both ends out, you
have to remove the screws that hold the top track in place( 2 at each support). Once the
screws are removed you can lift the entire top track off then the windows all come out the
top. REMEMBER which track you got each window from!!!!! IF your screens are screwed in
remove the screen screws also. Carefully
remove the extruded aluminum from each side of each window. NOTE WHICH END IS UP and which
way the weatherstrip points. The ends MUST go on the new glass the SAME way they came off
the old. Put them on the new plexiglass. (use a little clear silicone sealer to hold them
in place). Reassemble in reverse. Good luck be patient. John Kennedy

We just purchased a 1978 Apache Yuma last Monday and we are hooked on the whole Apache
concept. This little model has the nifty feature of being able to slide your whole
cooking/sink counter to the outside for outdoor access. Of course, it didn't come with any
instructions on set up/fold down and the person we bought it from had only had it a couple
months and never used it. So it was kind of like trying to figure it out together. Anyone
out there have a kind of basic little step by step set up sheet? Everything is in
excellent condition and we don't want to break anything by forcing something that
shouldn't be forced. Also, any interesting facts, etc about this little model. Haven't
seen anything on the web site about the Yuma. Love your site and will be getting in touch
with Ole' Elmer for a manual and some things we want to replace. Thanks again. Kathy &
Harold Tracy tracy1705@aol.com

Answer:

Congrat's on the Yuma! You're lucky to have an indoor/outdoor kitchenette. Anyone out
there have any info? . . .

I have an early 70's Ramada that when I try to crank up, wont go up on the right rear
corner. Do you have any suggestions of what do do? Is it the gear box or something more
simple?
p.s. This is just the site that I have been looking for. It's good to know that there are
more Apache lovers out there.....

Answer:

Glad you found us Joe! I can't say for sure, but it does sound like you need to
do some gearbox/chain adjusting or replacing. The parts manual found
here actually has a nice explanation of what to check / adjust on your lift system. If
you find you're going to need to replace gears or chains or whatever, all the sources I
know of are listed on the page as well. Also, if you need guidance, Ole' Elmer should be
able to help you out. There's also a Q&A below from 12/7/98 that dealt with the same
issue. You may want to contact them. Good luck!

I have a '78 Apache, Ranger-Solid State, hard side trailer, it sleeps six, has a
heater, ice box and three burner fold down/up stove. It appears it was sold through
"Smith Apache Sales out of El Paso, TX." It's in really good shape for it's age.
I found your web site a week ago, but needed to find out the model on my unit before I
felt that I could write to you. Can you give me some kind of idea just what it's value may
be as I don't see any "Rangers" anywhere on this web site. Is that good or bad?
Where is it in line with the other models that Apache made-low end, middle end or where?
Someone did paint the metal trailer body, but thank God with white so it's almost cream or
white all over. Any insight that you can give me would be most helpful.

It was sold May
3, '79 in El Paso, TX, I had totally forgotten that I had all the orig. Manuals and
Service Bulletin on the from Fayette Division-Dayton-Walther Corp. on the Brakes, Wheel
Bearings and the Manual as well, Owners Manual on the Central Power Pack System-ES Model,
Room Thermostat, Hydro Flame Maintenance Service Manual, Wiring Diagram
for Bargman 7 & 9 Circuit 12v Electrical Connector, and yes last but not least by all
means, the Apache Owners Manual for both Solid State and Canvas Models. After finding this
web site I know just what I have in these papers and manuals where as before I knew to
make sure that they where kept in tack not once did I really give them to much thought.
Needless to say I am willing to help anyone if they need copies of any of the things that
I have.

Also I live in Northern California and would like to work on an Apache get together out
this way, please put me in touch with owners out this way. In my camping over the last
three years that I've owned my Apache I have seen others, but not been able to talk to
them for one reason or another. Thanks for all your help and input on my Apache.
Warmest Regards, LJ

Thanks for the email! I wish I was more knowledgable about all the various Apache
models. My 1975 owner's manual lists the Ramada at the top, then the Roamer, Royal,
Eagle8, Mesa, then Eagle 600 - no Ranger. They may not have made the Ranger in 1975. There
is a blank space between the Roamer and the Royal, and chances are that's where the Ranger
used to be listed (see Weights chart). Any one else have any
info? Ole Elmer may be able to tell you more if you give him a
call. As for value, I've heard of Apache's in various price ranges from free to
around $3000. We purchased our '75 Royal in great condition for $1400.

I will certainly
pass your info on to Jim who's coordinating the N.E. Apache Roundup '99. He's collected
the list of interested folks so far. (He's currently on a fishing trip, so we won't
hear from him for a week) At any rate - thanks so much for volunteering to organize a
N. California Apache Roundup '99! Any Apache owners in that neck of the woods, please
contact LJ!

Has anyone considered forming an Apache Campers Club with a Cool Logo.

Answer:

A few folks have hinted at it, but no one has actually come out and officially
suggested an Apache club with a cool logo! I will be more than happy to post any
information here on the Apache Web Site if anyone wants to form/organize/manage such a
club! The nearest thing so far is the Roundup '99! Feel free to
come up with a cool logo any time.

It seems as though I fit into the category of a lot of other people at this site... 3
kids, wife, tired of camping in a tent with screaming children!!!!! I have a 78
apache ramada (what a truly genious invention!!) Anybody have any expertise on how to
install an a/c unit to the camper????

5/17/99 Answer from Kevin Pickett!
-------------------------------------------
Sorry it took a few days to get back to you. Well let me explain or A/C system, the unit I
purchased is an Emerson Quiet Cool 7500 BTU window unit. I removed the doors on the lower
half of the cabinets below the 3 burner stove, just over the wheel well. The vent panel is
directly behind this area, I believe this is where a heater option may have been located.
Then with some minor adjustment of the conduit that runs through this area the A/C unit
slips in. The existing shelf needs to have one of the rear corners lowered, by removing
one of the rivets and redrilling it to create a low point drain. The next step was to seal
the 3 corners of what is now my drip pan, the low point can either be filed or drilled so
the condensation will drain. Then use a piece of 1" PVC and attach it to the area
that is now a drain, and plumb it to an area that can be drilled throught the floor. A few
pieces of high density foam is used to trim out this cavity to create a basically air
tight compartment. Currently we just have the vent panel removed to experiment on the size
of vent required, it appears this area could easily be trimmed and some sort of screened
or louvered panel made to fit. I will fill you in on other details as they occur, we have
only run this in the yard but soon plan to try it in the field. Again thanks for the great
web site.
Kevin Pickett picketts@carol.net

More
from Kevin 5/23/99
Doug, The web site just keeps growing, it is so awesome. Well I ran into some problems on
keeping the A/C unit cool, so here is my modified installation. In the cabinet under the
stove I cut the existing heater vent plate larger to accommodate the A/C unit. I then made
braces to fit in the cabinet for the width of the unit. I bought some drawer sliding rails
22" in length and mounted them to the braces. Then I attached the unit to the other
part of the rails and put the system in. Now I can leave it in the camper while in tow and
when not in use, and just slide it out when we need it. I am in the process of making a
cover plate for the exterior of the opening. I will try and get some pics of the
installation out for you. Thanks for the Great Site,
Kevin picketts@carol.net

(7/12/99) Answer from John Gottwald
The ac installation is complicated. I installed a 6000 BTU (should be 8000 or larger)
window ac into the space where my 10 gallon water tank was. My ac unit was 12 3/4 in H by
18in W by 14in D. I had to cut the interior cabinet wall and fit the front of the ac flush
to the wall. Second, I cut a 12 in by 12 in hole into the exterior and created duct work
that connected the rear of the ac to the hole in the exterior. I also had to drill a hole
in the lowest part of the ac unit and through the trailer floor so the water could flow
outside. I also cut some 2 1/2 in holes through the floor and mounted circlular vents so
air could get to the air intakes on the side of the window unit.

I started by placing the ac unit where I thought it would go. Next I cut a 12 in X 12in
hole in the exterior. I cut a hole about as big as a hatch first and checked the inside.
I'm glad I did because I had the hole marked too high. I remeasured and made the cut. Next
I cut the hole into the cabinet (take the front of the ac unit off and make a hole smaller
than the back of the front grate.) When done correctly the grate will fit directly into
the cabinet without any gaps. Now drill out the rivets and screws holding the cabnet wall
into the trailer and remove. Now take your hole saw and create the holes in the floor (
not directly under where the ac unit
will be) so the side vents on the ac unit will be able to get outside air. Now take your
Ac unit and drill a 1/2 in hole in the lowest point and make sure you do not hit anything
in the unit. place the unit inside the camper and drill a hole where your drain is.

Now place your unit inside the camper and make sure your hole is in the correct place. I
made a 2 1/2 in hole to make sure it was in the right place and so water will never rot
out my floor. Now measure for your duct work. I rivited the duct to the ac unit and then
installed. Now place your ac unit inside. Next place the cabinet wall back and pop rivet
and screw it in place. Last take metal caulk and caulk around the outside hole for the
exaust grate. I screened the back of the grill so bugs will not make a home in there
during the off season. Then I screwed the grill in place. You can rivet this but I thought
I might want to be able to take the off so I screwed it. This is more complicated than
fixing the lift system but once in place is worth it. It took me one complete day to do
this project.jpgott@mounet.com

Apache Webmaster Reply:
If your camper already has a heater in the space and you want to keep it there,an
additional (slightly expensive) option is to purchase an RV roof-mount air conditioning
unit. You'd have to cut a hole in the roof (yikes!) but if done correctly, I've heard
these units work great. Please let us know what you end up doing and how it works. Good
luck!

I recently purchased a 78 ramada. I had no idea there was a "following" of
people behind these campers, however, I am pleased to find such a gold mine of
info. at this website. I am curious of the value of this camper. It is in mint condition.
Everything works and it has been taken care of very well. I paid $500.00. Is this an
accurate value?

Answer:

Congrats on the Apache purchase! It sounds to me like you got a great deal! I've heard
of Apache's in various price ranges from free to around $3000. I purchased my 75 Ramada in
great condition for $1400. I think you were in the right place at the right time!
Congrat's and enjoy it! Happy Camping!

I just wanted to offer some information regarding this overwhelming task. At first I
was told to purchase a new backing plate with all new components (shoes, magnets, springs,
etc...) The whole assembly was manufactured by Fayette who is no longer in business. Also
the shoes are 7 1/4 inch which are no longer available! Needless to say I then realized
that I would have to rehab the old setup. I found a local camper dealer who has a long
history in the business and they are very helpful and resourcful. They actually had the
magnets in stock. The next
task was the shoes themselves. I found a local brake expert who relines shoes. So I had
the shoes relined and then had the 2 necessary components to complete the job.The rest of
the components on the backing plate were cleaned up incuding the backing plate itself and
then the magnets and shoes were added to complete the package. The last step was to have
the drums cut and now the brakes are like new. However if you ever have to go through this
process beware that most often when shoes are relined the linings are thicker than
original! They will require some adjusting. Many people have told me that the brakes are
unecessary,
however I am pulling my 76 ramada behind a plymouth voyager and have 3 kids in the car (am
not taking any chances). If anyone can tell me that all this work could have been made
easier in any way please respond! I am planning on taking it to heaven with me.

Answer:

Thanks for the great info. Keith. Our Ramada has electric brakes also, but I haven't
hooked them up yet. Once I do - I hope they work OK and I don't have to go through what
you did! Sounds like you did a fine thorough job and your kids should thank you.

I first want to say what a great website! I aquired a 1976 ramada for free last year
and am enjoying the information to be shared.The camper was well maintained and has all
the extras. Its a hardside which I think is the best feature. Its in great shape
considering the years. My dilema is that my windows are all cloudy and some have that
aftermarket tinting paper for sunblocking on them that has all bubbled. I am looking to
restore the windows in the most economical but reasonable manor.Were the original windows
plexiglass? and if so when I replace them will they look the same as they do now in a
short amount of time? I have confered with local hardware store personel and they are
telling me that this can get quite expensive due to the fact that the ramada has so many
windows. Also if anyone can tell me how labor intensive is this task? Can anyone offer
some advice?

What a great site. I've thought of creating an Apache Register for years but never
quite got it off the ground. We always look for Apaches wherever we camp and introduce
ourselves. Ours is a 1968 Eagle that my wife purchase new. It's still going strong (with a
few idiosyncracies).

I wanted to comment on Old Elmer's replacement canvases. Old Elmer himself is a wonderful
person. The tentmaking is contracted out to Gregory Canvas in Lapeer.

We finally had to
buy a replacement tent and awning for the Eagle. We were assured that the new one would be
EXACTLY like the original for their having the patterns. What we got is about 80% exactly
the same.

Gregory makes the main top of the tent itself out of white vinyl so we no longer have our
beautiful green tent. The piping around the windows is cotton and capillary action brings
pretty significant water drips inside when wind blows hard rain against the side. They
must have changed the top to vinyl because the canvas they use other places, especially on
the canopy is very light weight; in a heavy rain one can feel a very fine mist coming
through. (We finally sent the canopy out to be professionally waterproof coated which has
solved the problem.)

They used some self healing zippers but for the canopy connection to the main tent, they
used the old metal zippers and it has taken us three seasons to smooth those metal teeth
out enough to zip smoothly. (For two summers I cursed loudly trying to get the canopy
attached).
They did not sew the front canopy straps on strongly enough or with enough backing (the
straps with gromits that receive the pole heads) and we had to have them reworked by a
canvas shop because they were tearing loose. The rear straps on the canopy were not put on
at all until I sent the whole thing back for reworking. They also did not put the top rear
tent strap on.

Finally, you really have to say that the sewing quality is not first rate. Seams wander
and overlapping pieces were not caught together in places. We paid $645 for the tent and
$220 for the canopy.

I do know a tentmaker that will make new canvas tents by copying your existing tent. It
was he who repaired my Gregory Canvas tent and canopy and he has made some canvas side
pannels for the canopy to my specifications. He also made up a velcro attached screening
system that I designed for the canopy. If people are interested, I could be an
intermediary (we are in Jersey City, New Jersey and he is in Patterson, NJ) for those too
far away or for those who might want to use our old Eagle tent and canopy as a pattern.
I'm just writing this as I think of it. Is there a service here? Should we talk?

Thanks for sharing your experience John, and for offering your help! I'm sure anyone
thinking about replacing their canvas will be grateful for this information. It's amazing
that you've used the same Apache camper since 1968! You now have the honored distinction
of being the longest continuous original Apache owner so far. Thanks for the nice site
comments too. Let us know how the canvas referrals go and thank you again for offering
your help!

Do you know of a source for providing parts for my 1975 Apache "Mesa" tent
trailer? I have had no luck in finding parts. I understand Apache Trailers were made
in Michigan but went out of business a few years ago. Can you help?

Apache campers were manufactured in Lapeer, Michigan from 1954 to 1986. The only
sources I know of for Apache parts are listed on the parts page on
this web site. If anyone finds any more sources, please let me know and I'll post them
here. Good luck Sawn!

I just found your Apache web site and I wanted to send you a very brief **THANK** **YOU**
!!!!! :-)

We bought a used 1966 Golden Buffalo about 10 - 12 years ago from a guy in southern New
Hampshire. As a matter of fact, we are just now working on pulling it out of the garage,
where
it's sat for almost 10 years. We know it's going to need some canvas repaired - most
likely replaced - and a few other things may need looked at. Your web site is a Godsend
even if the
camper is older than most of the owners manual & specs posted.

If you know of anyone else who owns a 1966 Golden Buffalo, let me know! I don't have an
Owner's Manual or tech specs or anything except the 2-page "how to raise & strike
" the camper. After we inspect the thing I imagine I'll end up calling Ole Elmer and
asking if he has a catalog, parts list, whatever. Given the age though I'm not too
hopefull, especially with the canvas. Anyway GREAT job on the web site and **THANKS** !!!
More from home later!

As I indicated earlier, I discovered your Apache web site yesterday and I
couldn't be happier. Like others I thought I was the only one out there with an
Apache! As a matter of fact, as I've been researching stuff the past week or more, I came
across the local regional 'Want Advertiser' and there are 3 Apache pop-ups for sale. We
bought our 1966 Apache 'Golden Buffalo' in August of 1989, I think. We bought it from a
guy in New Hampshire. We only paid $300.00 for it, which even then was a very good deal,
for what we got.

The Buffalo is very similar to the Eagle I -think-. See the p. 2 drawing of the
Eagle on the http://www.bobcoxcampercountry.com/apache/apache.html
parts page on their website. The single difference I noticed is the door on the
Buffalo is on the right hand side, not the rear. The Buffalo has two slide-out beds which
open up rearwards & forward - over the single tow bar ( 2" x 2" square, more
or less) instead of out to the sides. It has a drop-down dinette, a small
sink ( w/pump?? I don't recall ) , a propane stove, and an ice box ( not a
refrigerator, unfortunately). It also has a furnace but it is faulty & needs replaced.
The 'box' is painted a semi-mettalic gold ( a la the 'Gold'en Buffalo name I guess) with
the white stone shield on the front, and a hardshell white fiberglass Road Cover. When the
road cover is raised and the beds extended, the green canvas tentage covers the beds &
sidewalls. The canvas comes in two pieces, I think. We know one piece was pretty well torn
& ripped ( storm damage here ) and we are hoping to replace it somehow. The other half
should be in good shape. The Buffalo also came with a canvas Add-A-Room which was a
godsend in NY (see below).

I still have a Massachusetts application for renewal - from 1991. We took it off the road
and haven't used it since then. When we bought it, it was with the express purpose of
hauling it to the Finger Lakes region of New York about 6 weeks later; we used it to camp
out of while we attended a 4-day cluster of dog shows. We needed to make a few basic
repairs to the canvas & curtains, replace the expired & rusted out propane tank,
re-engineer the trailer wiring harness, etc. It performed wonderfully!! We weren't able to
use it the next year except to set it up in the side yard, and we ended up garaging it
until now.

My wife and I are making plans to go camping & fishing, and instead of the small dome
tent, she mentioned looking at the Buffalo and trying to get the canvas repaired or
replaced, etc. I spent all this past weekend moving everything out of the path of the
Buffalo, sweeping the cement floor of dirt & rocks, etc. so we could take it out &
set it up to examine everything. Unfortunately it has been raining for the past 3 days and
we haven't moved it outside yet! Sigh!

As for registering the trailer I do not have a Mass title for it. In 1989 when we
first registered it, I was told by the clerk at the Registry that I did not need a Title.
I seem to recall I was told it was because of the age ( as in 'anything over 10 years' ??
) , and the fact it was not secured by a loan due to the fact I paid cash for it, or a
combination of both age and value ?? I only got a Registration (plate) Certificate, no
Title. Thank goodness I kept the Registration Certificate - it lists the VIN ( Apache
serial number, I presume) and the gross weight [ it says 1,000 lbs but I think it was
slightly more than that, but I can't say for sure ]. I have an Instruction page which is
identical to the 1966 R*%#@ ( hey, I'm a Cleveland Browns fan - I can't say that R-word!!
:^} ) page you posted on your web site, but nothing else. I would love to find an Owner's
Manual and parts list for the Buffalo, but before I contact ole' Elmer, I want to wait
until I pull the thing out, open it up and inspect it all over, etc. I'll try & take
some photos of it & scan them in to send to you. It needs some work & sprucing up
for sure, but if the undercarriage & frame are ok, we're going to work on 'restoring'
it to road condition and use it this summer !

Tom
Fitchburg, Mass

Answer:

Well, I must say I've never heard of an Apache Golden Buffalo! Anyone else out there
own one of these? Would love to see a photo of this one. Good thing you kept it in the
garage - it shouldn't need too much work. Thanks for sharing your info Tom. Good luck with
the restoration!

Doug,
Thanks for the write back also...and so soon. Yea, I do miss my Apache. I told my wife
last night that I wanted another Apache....she said"Sure...sounds cool" ! I
about fell over! But....I think she thinks I will buy a new one...little does she know
that they went under. The way I remember it... seems they went out of business in early
80's, then started up again with a Ramada (only), but it looked to be a cheaper version
(correct me if I'm wrong). I remember seeing one at the Astrodome (complex) trailer show,
thinking that my 79' looked better....o-well.

I too installed a small 110v. AC. unit on the tongue, neatly cutting out the ABS. hole
(man did that ever make me nervous)! I even trimmed it out with white aluminum angle
channel. It looked great and cooled the trailer down just fine.

The only item that comes to mind about dislikes on the Apache was that stupid wire clip
latch that secured the upper half of the door to it's bottom half. It was always way too
weak and I remember thinking that I was gonna try to solve that weak link.... but never
got around to it.
I too have more stories to tell ya'll....but at another writing. I do have one question
that's been bugging me.... when I bought my 79' Ramada new that year, the salesman showed
me a different version of it. It had a swivel chair and maybe carpet on the front/ right
side. It seemed it had a different name too.... what was it's name. I guess it cost more
too. My trailer cost about $4,000. new in 79'. How the time flys........ see ya,
Clayton

Answer:

You got me on this question Clayton. I didn't know they stopped producing campers then
started up again either. I've never seen a late-model Apache, so I don't know what they
look like. I was told Apache stopped producing campers in 1986. Anyone else out there know
anything about these late model Apache's?

Hi. Great site! I am considering buying a 1985 apache Eagle4. I own a
small 4cyl car and have been looking in the N.A.D.A. guide for lite trailers. Finding
pictures of these used popup's is difficult at best. I was wondering if you may have a
photo of an Eagle 4?

Matt

Answer:

Does anyone out there have any photos of an Eagle 4?
An '85 Apache is a difficult find. Most owners of late model Apache's are reluctant to let
them go. If I were you, I wouldn't wait too long to check it out if there's one available!
(We pull our Ramada with our 4 cylinder Ford Ranger pickup. It's not ideal, but it
does work out fine on our flat Illinois/Wisconsin roads. Hopefully we'll be getting a 6
cylinder vehicle some time soon!) Good luck and let us know what happens.

HI, Just bought a Cimmaron and would like to know if anyone has a manual for setup of
this model according to Apache. There must be an easy way. I cant read the scanned pages
on your website. Can anyone help??? John Kennedy. Thanks

Answer:

Wow - I've never even heard of this model before. Just goes to show, this site sure
provides a learning experience. You've also called me on the thing I've been dragging my
feet on - getting the owner's manual re-scanned in pdf format so it's readable. I've just
learned how to do that, but I don't have a scanner, so I have to use a friend's. Sorry
it's taken so long. I've been focusing on updating the whole site into FrontPage 98, and
doing the owner's manual is the final piece of the plan. The manual should be a great
help. I hope to have it done in the next few weeks. If you can't wait that long, you can
try calling Ole Elmer and see if he can mail you a manual. He may
have them available . . . Anyone else?

First off, I have to start my note off with a huge THANK YOU for these GREAT web pages!
They were my inspiration for calling on a 1977 Apache Ramada, which I just put money down
on and will go get in about 2 weeks. I loved the idea of a light tent trailer, but the
"tent" part always bothered me! Who wants to hear everyone else in the
campground, and have them hear your little ones crying in the middle of the night? Anyway,
WOW! It looks like someone WAS smart enough to blend the 2 worlds. Once we got it set up
(an amazing thing to watch unto itself!) I couldn't believe how comfortable it was inside!
Now, if I may: does anyone have any advice for a new Ramada owner with no experience ever
towing anything? I've got 3 little ones and my wife and I are very adventurous, but are
tired of pine needles and dirt in the sleeping bags, let alone having to set up a
port-a-crib in the tent. I'm sure many of you can relate.

I'm interested in anything you may have to say, but especially in towing and readying a
vehicle for towing. We have a 98 Dodge Grand Caravan with a 3.3L and hope to take our
Ramada far and wide. Any thoughts? (anyone use a weight-distributing hitch? it's been
recommended to me, but I'm new to all of this.) Thank you!!!!! Kevin in Seattle, WA

P.S. blessings to the person who outlined how to repack wheel bearings - it'll be one of
my first jobs! Thanks again for a great web page, and to all the contributors of wonderful
advice. I've read it ALL and continue to check it frequently.

Answer:

Well I, for one, would like to say thanks for the nice comments and
"Congrat's!" on the new Apache! You have the tow vehicle WE want! Really! You
shouldn't have any problems towing. Here's what we do to make our towing as worry-free as
possible:

#1 - First off, we try to pack any heavy items in the car and not the camper. The
lighter you can keep the camper, the better. Definitely don't fill up the water tank
before a road trip. Whatever we do pack in the camper, we're sure to keep the load as even
as possible - forward and back, and left and right. If you must put a heavy item in, be
sure to position it over the axle. Following these measures will help prevent camper sway.
The last items we put in before the final fold-down are lawn chairs & other light
things.

#2 - Check everything before pulling away. Always be sure to double check all the
mechanical and electrical hook-up connections. Test out brake lights & turn signals,
confirm safety chains are on, the lift is ALL THE WAY up, all feet are locked up, the door
step is up, all utilities are disconnected, tires look solid with no signs of wear, etc.
Be sure to keep the spare tire inflated. Always, always, take a final walk around before
pulling away. You'd be amazed at how many people actually do not do this!

#3 - Take it easy! Remember - it will take a little longer to accelerate and to
stop. Turns should be taken on the wide side. Slow WAY down for Railroad crossings. Stay
at the posted speed limit and relax and your Apache will be much happier. After a while,
you'll forget it's there! (be careful of that!)

Hi gang. Steve Here in Philadelphia Pa.
Having a problem with the gears skipping in Crankup. My 1971 Ramada is causing me to go
nuts. I have replaced the gearboxes and now the front drivers side roof support skips on
the way up and I have to drop the gearbox to even it out. I cannot get the top up
correctly so I am scratching my head and thinking.
Any Ideas from the gang?? I have examined the mount of the gearbox and the one set of
gears the box meshes into is loose and can be moved by hand. Best Description I can give.
Steve

Answer:

Geeze, I wish I could provide some guidance here Steve, but you got me on this one.
Hope someone else can help! -Doug

It's never too late to pack the wheel bearings!
It only takes about a 1/2 hour or less to do, and thanks to Pete Swanson, we have some
nice instructions to follow below. Thank you Pete! Happy packing everyone! - Doug

Answer:

For all of you with old Apache's...(basically all of you at this site),
wanted to say how important repacking wheel bearings is. My '74 was purchased from a
friend, who admitted to me he had never repacked the bearings since original
purchase. I had my neighbor (part time "grease monkey") show me how to
repack them. If anyone is interested, it's probably the most important part of
trailering your camper anywhere. We found the old grease dried up and the bearings
had begun to wear. To repack them:

Jack up the camper (you can use a car jack on
the frame or use the tongue jack with the rear jacks down and locked). Be sure to
use safety stands under the camper. Raise one wheel off the ground. Use a
hammer and screwdriver to loosen the cap from the center of the wheel. We used the
hammer claw to pry it off a little at a time, moving around the cap. Make sure the
inside of the cap is clean and put it aside. You will see a large nut beneath the
cap, with a cotter pin through it. Bend the end of the cotter pin straight and push it out
(or pull out
with pliers) the other end to remove it. Clean it and put it aside. The nut should
only be hand tight, so you should be able to remove it without tools. Once the nut
is removed, you can remove the entire wheel. The bearings (there are two sets in
each wheel) can be removed
by using a crow bar or hammer handle and tapping them out from the opposite side.
The bearing and seal will pop out. Pop out both bearings and seals, wipe all dirty
grease from them, and wipe out the inner area of the wheel. To repack the bearings, just
put a big blob of wheel bearing grease (from auto parts or hardware store) into the palm
of your hand, and "shave" the grease from your hand with the bearing, working
the grease into the gap between the bearing housing and the bearings themselves. (It's
very self-evident when you look at it.) The old dirty grease will push out the
top. When the bearings are repacked, replace them in the wheel with the seals and
tap back in. Just remember which side was which. One bearing is larger than
the other. (I think the larger bearing goes on the outside of the wheel) Place
the wheel back on the axle, replace the nut. Turn the nut till hand tight, then
replace the cotter pin through the hole in nut and axle end. Bend one end of the
cotter pin so it won't fall out. Tap the cover back on and it's done. Repeat for the
other side. This took my neighbor ten minutes for one wheel, and took me about fifteen for
the other by myself. This made a huge difference in the "free spin" of the
wheels. It also allowed me to lubricate all the trailer brake parts located behind
the wheel. And if you need to sand and paint your trailer wheels, this is a good way
to do it because you have them off and there's no danger of paint contaminating the
grease. Just plug the center area with newspaper and spray. Good Luck. Pete.

Doug. A message from across the Atlantic from an Apache owner in England.
We bought our Apache in 1978 when we lived in the San Francisco Bay Area. When we returned
to the UK in 1980 we shipped it over with us. I stripped out the inside of the
camper to fit UK electrics. During the 1980s, when our children were smaller, we
travelled with it extensively in the UK, France and Spain. It always generated
interest. To cope with the weather, I fitted attachments for a fully enclosed awning
which extends the length of the camper body and about 7 ft from the camper. However,
for the last 8 years the Apache has rested in our back yard with a failed gearbox. I
have tried to get it repaired here but have been unable to do so. Now that the
children are no longer children and have left home, we want to repair the trailer and use
it again. To do so I will need to replace the gearboxes, preferably with aluminium
gears (hopefully more robust). The only other parts that need replacing are the
windows. I can get the material cut to size here. Advice on a source of parts
that could ship them to
me in the UK appreciated. p.s. your web site is great! Bob

Answer:

Hi Robert - Thanks for the Trans-Atlantic Apache story! Aluminum gearbox replacement
seems to be the #1 repair folks are doing to their Apaches. I believe Apache Sales Corp. has the best deal on aluminum replacement gear
boxes. They may ship to the UK - you just have to ask! If Ole' Elmer can't ship the parts,
perhaps one of the other companies listed here can. The parts manual that Apache Sales Corp. sells gives detailed
instructions on how to go about replacing the gears. Here's a
recent Q&A that you may want to read from a gentleman who just replaced his Apache
windows. Good luck with the repairs, please let us know how it all turns out!

Hi, Great web site. I thought I was the only one out there that loved their
Apache!! Ours is a 1977 Ramada 16. I had a dickens of a time locating the s/n
and I eventually was forced to strip the paint off of the tongue of the trailer
hitch. Voila the mystery number appeared on the cross beam that runs down the left
side of the trailer about a foot back from the ball attachment point. It only took
me two years to find it, but then again what is two years in the life of an Apache.

I just got a '72 Mesa that has a broken gearcase. The gears look alright
but it looks like the previous owner backed into something and broke the rear gearcase
along the mounting flange. Does anyone out there know where I can get a replacement case
without the gears? Thanks. Rich Turner

Answer:

I'd try giving Ole' Elmer a call at Apache Sales
Corp. - I'm sure he'll be able to at least let you know if it's available. You may
also want to check out the parts
manual; it'll show you what's available and what's not. Good luck with the repairs!

We love our hard shell apache !!!!!!!!!!! What we are looking for is replacement
fiberglass panels. The panels are not worth trying to repair. Are they
available? Dont suggest converting to canvas, after using a hard shell, I dont like
canvas. The canvas doesnt take the Florida heat as well as a hard shell, nor stand
up to the storms as well. We keep looking at the new RVs available, and when we
think we may go for a new one, I change my mind. I just can't part with my hard
shell !!!! Any help on replacement panels is appreciated.

Answer:

Apache Sales Corp. has some fiberglass panel replacements
available, but not many. You may be out of luck unless you find an old beat-up Apache to
scavenge the panels off of. Give Ole' Elmer a call, or check the parts manual; it tells what's
available and what's not. If all else fails, we can place a wanted ad on this web site and
wait for a hit. Any one else have any ideas? Good luck!

I have a couple of questions. I put new gear boxes in my 73 Royal yesterday. It fixed
my trouble, but it seems like it is harder to turn the crank when lifting now. Is That
because of the different gears in the newer style of gear boxes? Also was wondering where
to order the stuff for repairing small cracks in the ABS plastic. Thanks, David G.

Answer:

Hey David, not sure about what's sticking-up your gear boxes. I believe they do
require liberal lubrication. Hopefully they'll loosen up the more you use them. Maybe
someone else will send an answer to this one. As far as the ABS repair stuff, it can be
ordered directly from Apache Sales Corp. The parts page has the part number listed
if you need it.

Hi! Great Web Site! I feel really lucky tonight. This week, I purchased
(practically stole) a 74 Ramada hard-side in great condition from my boss at work.
The interior is immaculate. Not a rip in the fabric, no chips in tables, furnace
annd sink work, everthing! Am just doing some touch up's and need to clean the
outside of the windows....the windows have yellowed pretty badly. How do I remove
the screens to clean the windows? If I need new windows, any idea where to get them
and how much they cost? Also, the sink in my camper seems to drain very slowly. Is
there any way to get the water to evacuate more quickly. The original owner has a
green thick garden hose connected to a black drain base under the sink area, then
connecting to the outer drain. Just kind of drips out. Oh yeah, one more
question. I'm a big guy, about 220 lbs. and my wife isn't anorexic, although
not very heavy. What are the bed ends rated for (weight-wise?) and is it necessary
to shore up the panels, since they are the original marine plywood from 1974. Would
be very emberassing to have a collapse at an (inopportune) moment. :-) Appreciate any
help. Thanks so much! Pete Swanson
(plan to put your great site to use this year. My two oldest kids, ages 3 and 4,
can't stay out of the camper as I clean it up in the driveway.
This will be their first year camping.)

Answer:

Hi Pete - sounds like you got yourself a nice deal! Too bad about the yellowing
windows. Under normal conditions, the windows shouldn't yellow like that. The camper must
have been set up in direct sunlight for extended periods, or a previous owner may have
tried to clean them with something he shouldn't have. At any rate, there's
now a section on the "How To" page that
describes the window replacement process.
The screens are actually held in with a rubber strip that can be pulled out. There's a
re-screening tool that looks like a little pizza cutter that helps push that strip back in
that you'll need if you go this rout. As far as the load ratings on the end beds, I know I've seen it somewhere before,
but I can't seem to find it. I do remember that they held a lot of weight. I wouldn't
worry about shoring-up the existing wood, but do keep an eye on the underside for your
first few times out and watch for any hint of too much weight (buckling, etc.). Apache
beds will probably hold more than any other camper out there! If you're really worried,
you may want to consider using the folded-down table bed instead of the end bed (or at
least restrict excessive activity to the inside bed) ;-]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPLY from Pete 3/23/99
Hi Again! Thanks for the quick response. I was able to (as you suggested) remove the
rubber strip from around the screens to remove them. This enabled me to attempt to
clean the windows (which became cleaner, but were badly yellowed from age.) Instead,
I decided to replace all the windows. I removed the rubber strip from the top and
sides of the screens, letting them hang down from the bottom. The metal
"handle" strips remove from both ends of each window pane. The rubber
sleeve under that was simply glued on and pulled off quite easily. I then measured
the windows (for those of you who might want to do the same, the Ramada Solid State needed
six 26 3/4" X 29 1/2" panels for the large windows and two 26 3/4" X
13" panels for the small sliders to the right of the door. I decided not to
replace the bed windows, since those curtains will always be drawn. After removing
the metal and rubber from the old windows, they simply bend and pop out of the
tracks. The new plexiglass panels (which cost only $60 for all of the above, cut to
size by a local hardware store) popped in the same way. What a difference! The
inside is so much brighter, and the new plexiglass is as clear as day. The newer
plexiglass is much more scratch resistant, too.
For anyone repairing body panels, I decided to buy a fiberglass auto repair kit (which
includes fiberglass mesh cloth, compound, hardener,
spreader, etc.) since the instructions say it's great for any ABS or fiberglass car, boat
or RV panels. The compound simply saturates the mesh, then you lay it over the
needed repair area (after cutting out the right size of the mesh) and smooth it out.
When it dried, I sanded, fine-sanded and painted the area. Looks like new. Well,
thanks again for your help. Have to get busy finishing up the refurb before I crank
it down until the first trip in a couple months. Talk to ya soon. Pete Swanson pswanson@netzero.net

Relpy from John Kennedy 5/23/99
Hey fellow APACHE owner and guru of all that is hardside camping! I just finished changing
the windows in my 1977 ramada and thought I would send along how it got done. My camper
does not have rubber holding the windows in. There is a piece of extruded aluminum on each
end of the window and the window slides in a track top and bottom. I cranked the top up
then went inside. While lifting the end of the wall I was able to slide the roller
assembly that holds each end of the wall, toward the outside of the camper top. There is a
notch in the track that allows you to remove the rollers from the track. A helper to hold
the disconnected end while you do the other end is required. Lay the wall down on a
support in your camper (wood blocks, whatever). Once you have both ends out, you
have to remove the screws that hold the top track in place( 2 at each support). Once the
screws are removed you can lift the entire top track off then the windows all come out the
top. REMEMBER which track you got each window from!!!!! IF your screens are screwed in
remove the screen screws also. Carefully
remove the extruded aluminum from each side of each window. NOTE WHICH END IS UP and which
way the weatherstrip points. The ends MUST go on the new glass the SAME way they came off
the old. Put them on the new plexiglass. (use a little clear silicone sealer to hold them
in place). Reassemble in reverse. Good luck be patient. John Kennedy

Hello, I have been looking at various pop ups to buy. We are a military family
and get pretty sick of staying in hotels during our moves/visits home. My husband and I
have decided to buy used. I found your site tonight and am fascinated. I saw
the for sale ad that was posted back in Nov., but NJ is a bit far to drive. Not to
mention it is probably sold by now. Is there any where in SC to see/buy one of
these? Were they made large enough to sleep 6-8 people? Thanks for your help.
God Bless, Sandy Francisco

Answer:

Hi Sandy - Apaches were made in various sizes. The larger ones sleep 7 or 8 people.
Ours is a 1975 Ramada and it sleeps 7. You may want to contact the dealer in North
Carolina listed in the answer below this one. Good luck!

Does anyone know where to buy Apache popups in North Carolina? I have a friend that is
looking for one. Thanks!!
smsmith@bbs.carolina.net

Answer:

Try contacting Jay Umstead at Carolina Coach and Camper in Hickory NC. Their telephone
number is 828-322-9009. If you wouldn't mind, please tell him you got his name from
Jim Lockard from Pennsylvania. I drove down there to pick up a 1966 Raven in
December. They had a couple of other Apache's on the lot at that time so maybe they
get them on a regular basis. Good luck. There are also some solid state ones
for sale from time-to-time in our area.

This weekend, my wife and I came across a 1976 Apache for sale in
Northern California. We felt the unit was in "good-excellent" condition.

We have been looking out for a good deal in an older tent trailer for a few weeks, but
this was the first hard-side unit we came across and liked the layout very much. We
spent three hours with it, setting-up twice, checking all the systems, including 12 volt
electrical and gas. The units doesn't have a furnace/heater and the battery is
missing. I am also not sure how the brake system works - neither does the owner who
only buys, cleans and resale's tent trailers (privately) and appears to know very little
about them!

When we took it down for the last time, one of the lifts stuck which we alleviated when
we moved to flatter ground - this was the only issue we
experienced. I "test-towed" the Royal behind my 1996 3.0L Caravan and it
performed well (no problems at 65 mph).

The current owner is firm at $1,900 - what kind of deal does this represent or should
we keep on looking? - Paul Humphreys.

Answer:

It's hard for me to say if this is a good deal or not. Let me give you this
information for a comparison: I'm in Chicago, and we paid $1400 for our 1975 Apache in
very good condition. It did have a few blemishes, but not many. I've heard of them selling
for a lot less, but I've also heard of Apache's selling for a lot more. The question you
need to answer is, is it worth it for you? This is a pretty decent price for a hard-sided
camper considering what a new soft-sided camper costs ($$!!!). A new one may have more
options, would be a bit lighter, and more modern looking. However, a new one won't have
hard sides, and probably won't be around to fetch $1900 in 2022 - they just don't make
them as solid as the old Apache's! If this camper has the functionality you're
looking for, "feels right", and you know you're going to use it, I'd probably go
for it. I haven't met the current owner, but you may want to test his "firmness"
on the offer and try to talk him down a hundred bucks or so just to make yourself feel
better. Bring up the sticking lift or something. You already spent 3 hours with it, so you
must like it. As a final point, you do have access to the Apache Web Site for support if
you need it at any point down the road! Good luck with your decision - please let us know
how it turns out! Anybody else care to pontificate?

I was so happy to find your Apache website. We purchased one a while back and
were at a loss on how to fix the lift that didn't seem to work. We couldn't figure out how
to get to the cables so my husband rigged up a crank and lift. It is rather hard to
explain but it uses two boat cranks and some ski rope to pull up the roof using some metal
rods he attached to the outside. Kind of like a scissor effect. It was the only way
we could use our camper. We saw something similar on an old camper that was very small and
my hubby got a brain storm. It didn't need the crank and rope though. I suppose it
was small enough to do it manually. I wish we would have found your site with the
manuals before. Our system works well but you need two people to put the camper
up. I would like to know if you have any idea where the serial # might be. I
had a state trooper looking for it so we could get title but he couldn't find it
either. I believe ours is a 72 or 73 going by the stamped date on the water
tank. It looks a lot like the one in your picture with green on the bottom and the
hard sides. I have no idea what model it is. The name plates are missing. I
would appreciate any help. Thanks in advance Lisa

Answer:

A+ for determination! I'm also glad you finally found the site. You're not the first
person to wonder what year and/or model Apache they have. The owner's manual states
"Trailer Serial Number - Located on left front side panel of trailer." I believe
it's right along the bottom of the side panel where it kind of turns underneath the
camper. At any rate, if you still can't find the number, you can probably give Ole' Elmer a call to figure out the year and model. He'll ask you
a few questions and should have it pinned down in no time. I think the lift systems were
all the same for all Apache models after '71 or so. I'm sure Apache Sales Corp. will be
able to get you parts to get up and running smoothly again. The question seems to be, will
you be able to title it? Good luck Lisa, and let us know what happens!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reply from Lisa 2/14/99 - Well I got it figured out that my Apache is a Royal of
the 73 model I believe. As to the Serial # that is still a mystery. I have looked it
over and can't seem to locate it. I can get a title by having a number assigned to
it by the Highway Patrol. That is if the Trooper who comes to look at it can't find
the number either. Thanks again for the wonderful website.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Answer from S. Beidor 3/30/99
Hi, Great web site. I thought I was the only one out there that loved their
Apache!! Ours is a 1977 Ramada 16. I had a dickens of a time locating the s/n
and I eventually was forced to strip the paint off of the tongue of the trailer
hitch. Voila the mystery number appeared on the cross beam that runs down the left
side of the trailer about a foot back from the ball attachment point. It only took
me two years to find it, but then again what is two years in the life of an Apache. S.
Beadore beadore@dbtech.net

Would you believe that I purchased a 73 Apache Royal this past Thanksgiving for only
$350? Only problems were a chipped dinette table which I have reconstructed on my
own, and the seat and bed cushins and covers are badly worn. Any suggestions on how
to replace these? Also a few minor cracks in the plastic panels, which thanks to
your website, I can now repair. Thanks for the site, I have had a hard time finding
info on this vehicle, and had started to feel that I had made a bad decision to buy a
camper no longer in production. Actually didn't know they were not being made when I
bought it. Now feel very knowledgable and comfortable with my purchase. Jeff:
kilwinsblowingrock@boone.net

Answer:

Good deal on the Royal Jeff! I haven't seen any Apache cushion replacements for sale,
but I haven't been looking. You can try calling Ole' Elmer and the rest of the places that
have Apache parts. If that doesn't pan out, you can have some new covers sewn or sew some
yourself. Most sewing shop/ fabric store places will make these for you if you give them
the dimensions. Good luck with the Royal, once you get out and start camping in it, you'll
understand what a great camper it really is!

I am a second generation Apache user. My father purchased an Apache in 1968 and
we have been using it all my life. We are interested in doing some work on the
camper (primarily a new top). I noticed on your photographs page the last picture is
of a 1965 Apache Raven. Our camper looks just like that one. I recently spoke
to a dealer about ordering a replacement top. I referred to the camper as an Apache
Raven. He corrected me saying that Raven was another manufacturer of pop-ups and
that I actually had an Apache Eagle. Which is correct? Scott Simmons

Answer:

Well Scott, I'm very glad you asked this question, because it gives me a reason to add
some more material to the web site (You'll see in a minute) You are correct! Though Raven
may very well be the name of another pop-up manufacturer, Apache did produce Ravens in the
mid 1960's. Thanks to a series of jpg files that Jim
Lockard sent of his 1966 Raven Instruction book, we have unrefutable proof. So, click here to go to a new page with the
Raven Instruction book jpg's. Enjoy!

My mom has an old Apache camper sitting in her yard that we used extensively when I
was a kid. Only problem is, the crank is broken and the poor thing sits there shut tight.
I'd love to use it again, as the rest of the exterior is in good shape (I can only imagine
what condition the inside is in). Does anyone know where I can get it repaired in northern
New Jersey? Thanks for any suggestions, Christer.

Answer:

How intriguing! You say the crank is broken - does that mean the crank handle, the
crank pin, or the lift system? You'll need to determine what needs fixing first. Chances
are, the replacement parts could be found in the lift system pdf file on the Parts & Service page, and ordered
from Apache Sales Corp. You'll need to determine your make & model, but Ole' Elmer
should be able to help you if you can't figure it out. As far as having someone else
repair it, Apache is out of business, but any camper/RV place could probably help. You're
lucky your family has kept the old jewel! The memories are going to come flooding back
when you finally take your first step back into the old family Apache. I hope it's in good
shape. Good luck and please let us know what happens!

Hi Doug ! Boy is this web site growing !
I have but one question. Bill and I have been talking about how neat it would be to get a
bunch of us Apache people together with our campers somewhere this summer and camp for a
few days or so. We have camped alot this summer and have only ran into one apache other
than our own at the campgrounds that we have been to. We thought that if we could all
agree on a place to meet and get together it would be great fun to show off our campers,
share our Apache tales, get Idea's from one another and maybe help each other out with
repairs and
such. My husbands parents own a great big coach that they have turned into a stunning
motor home and they travel all around meeting with others that have done the same and we
thought that it would be fun to form an Apache Club too. If anyone has any interest in
this Idea, e-mail me and let me know. We can all at that point figure out the details if
there is enough response and interest. As always Doug, keep up the good work ! Kelly
Parmenter wkp@acornworld.net

Answer:

This sounds like a great idea! If Kelly will keep track of interested folks, I'll post
any news or information here for everyone.
This can be the Apache Roundup '99! Thanks for the great suggestion Kelly, and for
offering to coordinate!

I just saw your web site as I was looking for parts for my MESA. I enjoyed your
story because I have had a similar experience. The first pop-up I traveled in was a canvas
loaner from a neighbor when I was a kid. The next year my Dad bought an Apache Ramada
which we used for about 6 years before they moved on to a Motor home. I really liked that
camper and we traveled throughout Florida where we lived, the northeast and even the
southwest over the years we owned it. I remember one of the first modifications he made
was to install an air conditioner in the front panel on the tongue followed quickly by a
rack connected to the slide outs which allowed us to carry canoes and even a 14 ft.
fiberglass skiff.

Apache solid state campers are the best campers bar none. They were
ahead of the rest and nothing has come since to challenge their status. They were quality
built and one of the best engineered designs around. What I do not understand is why other
companies haven't figured out the advantages the solid state campers have.

I bought my Mesa from my brother about 10 years ago. We used it for a few years and
then following Hurricane Andrew we lent it to a former neighbor to use while their house
was being repaired. The camper was set up and used for 14 months before it was returned to
us. Needless to say, it bore the wear & tear of everyday use and constant exposure.
Last year I began a massive rebuild because there is still nothing on the market that can
touch it. The roof had a crack, the vent leaked water, the cushions were shot, the sink
leaked, the inside wood panels had rotted from small water leaks, the windows were brittle
and cracked. The end window panels were sagging and leaked as well.

About 11 months later, the camper almost looks like new. Unfortunately I was not able
to keep the original theme in the drapes, etc. but it still looks great and renewed. All
of the wood paneling (including the ceiling) was replaced with a lighter whitewashed
finish which made the whole inside brighter. That included the ceiling, the inside ends,
and all of the cabinet doors and faces (including the seating area). The ceiling crack was
repaired by removing the top and fiberglassing the inside. When the top was replaced, it
was reinsulated to keep the inside cool. A new ceiling fan unit replaced the old one and
overhead lights were placed above the sink, above the table, and just above the entrance.
The unit did have an air conditioner installed I decided that when I replaced that front
end to reinforce the inside of the front shell with a fiberglass reinforced frame. When
the A/C was replaced I used some boat molding around the edge of the fiberglass and then
silicone caulk it to the A/C. I also had to replace the sink faucet and since the internal
water tank was cracked, I cut it down so that it was just a tray to hold the hose and all
electrical cords. All new external travel lights were installed. The bearings
were removed, inspected, and repacked as well as replacing the bearing seals. The floor
had quite a few nicks & cracks so we decided to put a new one on top of the old. While
the frames & cabinets were out I cleaned the old floor with Acetone and used the best
Armstrong's floor tiles I could find. They really made a difference.

Now comes the last part. To really restore this, there are quite a few of the seals and
gaskets which I need to replace. Mainly, they are:
1. The seals on the side panels at the end slide outs.
2. The seal on the ends beneath the slide outs.
3. The pieces above the end windows.
4. The pieces connected to the roof which seal the fold out ends
at the roof.
5. The "Apache" lettering for both sides
(otherwise I'll create a some kind of Apace sign to go there)

I'm not sure if there are other missing pieces since I don't have any guide to tell me
otherwise. Following our first shakedown campout this weekend I plan to add a 12v
socket for our Electric Coleman Cooler, and any other 12v accessory. My kids thoroughly
enjoyed the weekend and their looking forward to more. I was watching my son do some of
the chores that I had when I was a kid (like putting in the poles under the slide-outs).

I was told that some others have added 2 - 12v batteries to the trailer tongue for
remote locations but I'm not sure that the extra weight there is a good idea . I'll
follow some of the links you provided but any direct assistance would be appreciated.

Answer:

Thanks for the story John! The chassis1.pdf file on the Parts & Service Manual page should
be a definite help for you to find those last few parts. Depending on your tow vehicle, an
extra battery on the tongue shouldn't be a problem, but I'm certainly no expert. The
cut-out water tank job you did was an excellent idea. We'd love to see some pictures of
your Apache when it's finished. Keep up the great work!

I am a proud owner of a 1969 Apache Ramada, very large camper although I am not
certain of the exact dimensions but it must be as large as the largest of todays
pop-ups. I "aquired" this camper from a friends father about two years
ago... he borrowed it from a friend about 6 years ago, well the friend apperantly never
used it because he told him he could just keep it..well it turns out that my friends
father only used it a couple times and it sat out behind their house for several years
untouched, he even told me that he almost took it to the dump one day because they never
use it. My wife just happened to be talking to him at a party one night and somehow
the conversation of campers came about and he said that he had one that we could HAVE if
we wanted it. So of course we went and looked at it, this camper besides being
outdated color wise was in near perfect condition. The beds, couch cushins,
everything was in EXCELLENT condition, so of course we took it!! I had to go through
hoops to get it registered in my name since the guy we got it off of never bothered, but I
managed to get it done. ANYWAY, We did encounter one problem about 3 camping trips
ago. We have developed a tear in the canvas on a corner where it attaches onto the
roof (hard top, canvas sides model) we managed to hand sew it up and put a patch on it,
but I am wondering if there is a better way to repair this? Also, does anyone know
where I would be able to get complete canvas replacement? the plastic windows that
zip up are showing some wear, the screens are fine and the canvas window is fine, but the
plastic is going bad. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in
advance!!!

Answer:

Great story! Sounds like you were in the right place at the right time. Complete
original canvas replacements can be ordered directly from Ole' Elmer at Apache Sales Corp. I've heard from someone who replaced theirs
using Apache Sales Corp. and they were very pleased. Also, there's a pdf file with
pictures of canvas replacements on the Parts
& Service Manual page.

A curiosity question....does anyone out there know when the first Apache was
built? What serial number was on the first one? How about the serial number of
the first one of each model? The one I just purchased (1966 Apache Raven) is
serial number R15186. How many were built? (Webmaster
note: Any Apache trivia would be greatly appreciated! ...thanks!)

Answer:

Well, I just got off the phone with "Ole Elmer" from Apache Sales Corp. in
Lapeer, Michigan. Very friendly, informative gentleman. He informed me that the first
Apache was built in 1954! (Apache Indian Chief) and the last one was built in 1986.
Hopefully we'll get some more info. soon!

I have an opportunity to buy, sight-unseen, a 1966 (or 1968?) Apache Brave. Does
anyone out there know what one looks like? Is it the 4'
x 6' box size, canvas top, "mini" fold up model similar to the 1965 Raven owned
by Todd Brown pictured on this site? My guess is that the Raven has a soft cover
when it is closed and the Brave is a metal split top? I would need to know by Friday 12/18
as I have arranged to drive quite some distance to look and (hopefully) buy it.

Answer:

Well, the Apache Brave turned out to be a 1966 Apache Raven. That may be why no
one could answer the question. They also had another Apache solid state in need of
oodles of repair. Jay told me someone bought it too. And there was a second person
interested if the first one didn't buy it. The "quite some distance" was
Pennsylvania to North Carolina and back, round trip...1,159 miles...17 hours on the road
and about an hour and a half to get it ready to travel. I bought the Raven as all the
hardware was there and functioning. The pamphlet for setup, accessories, and striking was
inside too! A little flaked out rust across the frame on the front below the
aluminum body panel, otherwise the body/chassis was in good condition. The travel
cover was in bad condition and had allowed rain to soak the cushions, canvas and some of
the plywood. I have it set up out back to dry out. Whenever I get the photos
developed and find a way to e-mail them, I will.

My family and I have been looking for a used pop-up for about a month now. I
just found a 1986 Apache Mesa for $850 (probably can get for a little less). It seems to
be in pretty good condition. The canvas is in good shape and the camper seems to be
clean. Is this a fair price and is there anything else I should look for??

Answer:

Wow! I believe this is the last year Apache Corporation manufactured new campers.
Sounds like a good find! It also sounds like a decent price if it's in good shape. There's
a few things you can do to make sure it's the camper for you. Thanks to your question, I
created a special page that gives some hints on what to check when looking at a camper. Click here to find out more!

Also, I would like to install a refrigerator (electric, gas or both) and an A/C.
Any suggestions? Hope someone can help.

Answer:

I'd say it sounds like you have a Ramada, Roamer, or Royal. Check the serial number on
the left front side panel of the trailer. I believe that year and model can be determined
from this number. Maybe you can try calling Apache Sales Corp. (number above) with the
serial # and they could tell you more. Apache Sales Corp. may also be able to help with
the fridge - A/C questions. Anyone else?

My lift system does not lift evenly (one corner lags) and has to be
"helped" along. Can anyone advise on how to access and adjust\fix the
system? John Ward

Answer:

John - Bill & Kelly Parmenter did some work on their lift system and may be able
to offer up some advice or answer a specific question for you. Their email is wkp@acornworld.net Thanks Bill & Kelly! Anyone
else?
NOTE - A lift system manual has since been added to this web site. Click here to check it out!

Hi there, Just to let ya know, I also have a '74 HardTop. I wouldn't trade it
for anything!!! I purchased it from my brother-in-laws father. He bought it
second hand practically brand new and has maintained it
very well. I purchased it for $600. It was our first "wheeled"
camping experience and have been going strong for almost three years.

I have replaced
all the Plexiglas windows. They were too weathered and yellowish for me. Also,
the past owner had modified a window so a small window air conditioner could be slid in as
needed. I kept that convenience. My refrigerator works on electricity. I have
never tried gas.

I do have a small problem with my hookups on the side. All of the plastic inserts and
covers have weathered and became very easy to break. So, in my frustration one day,
I decided to remove them all and order some more. Well, that was a learning
experience. I found a place in Utah that had a few but not all of them. Of
course the one I needed most, the water intake, he didn't have and they were white instead
of green. He was really helpful though and shipped 3 of 5 to me at NO
COST. I also need to replace the overhead light. I purchased one through
Camping World (mail- order) and hooked it up and it just didn't work (???) What am I
to do?

Answer:

Mike & Marian - You can try getting ahold of Apache Corp. at the number listed on
this page, or any other Apache parts company. I'm not sure what to try if that doesn't pan
out. Anyone else have an answer?

I really like your site. It's great! I have a 74 Royal. I would like to put a furnace
in it if I can find one. Do you have any ideas or do you know if one can be put in a
camper that didn't originally come with one? Keep up the good work,
-Dave G.

Answer:

Thanks Dave. I'm not sure about a furnace, but I do know of people who swear by their
electric heaters for camping. Thing is, you need electricity! Any one else have an answer?

I have just aquired an Apache Ramada 1971 for emergency services communications in my
area of Pensylvania. My radio club does not want to put a lot of money into the
trailer but we are trying to repair the gearbox. The metal housing is broken but the
gears look allright. If
any one has a junker the gear boxes can be robbed from I would like to hear from them.

Steve
Hoch WU3I

Answer:

Boy, are you in luck. I replaced my gearboxes at the end of the summer, and for
some reason, possibly laziness, or maybe I'm just plain omniscient, I have not put them to
the curb for trash day. You are welcome to them. I am also in PA,
Philadelphia. If you are close, you could pick them up, or I could send them to you
UPS.

What timing. They probably would have gone to the curb on Tuesday, with the
leaves.

We're not sure exactly how to work the furnace in our Apache.We don't have a battery.
Can anyone help?

Answer:

Our furnace doesn't require a battery or any power, unless you
want to use the blower. All it needs is propane. I was unsure at first, but it's pretty
easy. Just turn on the propane tank, turn the red knob to pilot, push and hold it in, then
swing open the little pilot door and put a match in. (one of those long grill lighters
works best!) When the pilot lights, keep holding the button in for one full minute (or
longer) so it heats up and stays lit, then let it go. It should stay lit. It's now in
stand-by (pilot) mode. When you're ready for heat, turn the knob all the way to
"on" (next step past pilot) and it should go "woof" and start burning
propane and producing heat. The other knob just controls how high the flames are inside.
It took me a while to get that one set for comfort. Anyways, the blower just cranks the
heat out faster and helps circulate it, but it's kind of loud and we like it better
without it sometimes. But be very careful!!! It gets HOT!!!

I am looking for info on how to repair the lift cable mechanism
on a '78 Apache Ranger. The gear boxes are OK, but I'm stumped on how to work on
this lift cable/plastic chain. Any helpwould sure be appreciated-Thanks

Answer:

We have had to tear ours apart for the wires and chains and can offer some
advice...Bill and Kelly Parmenter
WEBMASTER NOTE: A lift system manual has since been added to this web site. Click here to check it out!

Notice of Disclaimer: The creator and publisher of this site makes no
guarantees as to the answers to questions posted here. Readers assume all liability and
risk for any problems or injuries or whatever unintended consequenses may happen as a
result of following advice posted here. This is a free service for Apache lovers, so
please use caution if following posted instructions.