Seriously, do we need to make a pool to see how long it is before he is actually tried, and then how much the government will have to backpedal over his treatment? Where are our libertarians to criticize the lack of trial?

Would you like to comment on your outrage that we have been consistently lied to by our government with all sorts of things? Sounds like a major embarrassment to me. So the end result? The government knowingly lied about a lot going on in the Middle East. Shocking, no? Guess that isn't a problem to you.

Big push in the heart of Kabul. I don't think pulling out "with honor" will be an option by the end.

Probably, but this type of attack happens every year. I was in Astan in 2008. One day's stars and stripes headline ran "Karzai: Taliban must be allowed to reconcile" and the next day's headline was "Taliban attempt to assassinate Karzai in downtown Kabul Parade."

Unfortunately the US isn't offering asylum to those that will be hardest hit after they leave. I doubt the Republicans would allow a large number of Muslim immigrants in the wake of the war. Very different compared to the flow of immigrants after Vietnam.

I feel terrible for those girls but if the girls get asylum, their immediate families probably should too, and how can the US justify denying any other family with girls asylum given that all girls are potential tarrgets? Then the US is looking at a mass migration, in which case it needs to make sure that immigrants assimilate instead of forming enclaves. The last thing the US needs is a mini-Afghanistan it can't pull out of.

I feel terrible for those girls but if the girls get asylum, their immediate families probably should too, and how can the US justify denying any other family with girls asylum given that all girls are potential tarrgets? Then the US is looking at a mass migration, in which case it needs to make sure that immigrants assimilate instead of forming enclaves. The last thing the US needs is a mini-Afghanistan it can't pull out of.

Well, given that the families are letting their girls go to school you know they are more progressive than those that favor the Taliban style of life. Look at Dearborn, MI. in 2000 over 1/3 of it's population was of Arab ancestry. It's where All American Muslim filmed. While you may have some enclaves form I don't really think it will be an issue any more than a Chinatown or little Italy would be.

The Detroit area has a lot of Arabs but that isn't what I was talking about. I'm concerned about large numbers of fundamentalists who are culturally isolated (and the isolation would be partly due to Americans' xenophobia, so I'm not just blaming them). In France, there's a lot of strife due to large numbers of middle eastern immigrants who didn't integrate. I think people within a country should be culturally compatible, meaning they can at least get along with others' cultures. But you're right that these families would tend to be more progressive so my fear might be unfounded.

France doesn't want any part of the immigrant's culture. That is the source of their problem. Anyways, why would the fundamentalists want to move to a country were girls can wear bathing suits and learn how to read? They wouldn't unless you want to get into some sleeper cell tom clancy shit.

In France I think the feeling is mutual. And they'd want to move so that their children aren't targets, and possibly because of the opportunity they believe the US offers. They would tend to be socially conservative and religious, although less so than the Taliban. The question is whether they're open enough to integrate, and I'm not as sure as you are that they are.

The Detroit area has a lot of Arabs but that isn't what I was talking about.

If you're not talking about Detroit then your fears are certainly unfounded--if we were likely to have Muslim enclaves, certainly Dearborn would be one.

The US assimilates people much more effectively than France (or other European countries). The enclaves we do have are mostly historical--e.g. the various Chinatowns are because Chinese immigrants didn't integrate in the past, but new immigrants aren't flocking to those places.

That said, I don't think "assimilate all of the progressive Afghans" is a viable strategy, although it would be pretty entertaining to watch the SRB shit itself if we tried.

^ Afghans, however, are not Arabs. I think that might be the distinction he's making, although I don't know why.

Quote:

Sorry, I meant I wasn't talking (concerned) about Arabs.

You mean, you're not concerned about Arabs as opposed to Afghans?

It's a valid concern with any ethnic group, but it's worth remembering that Afghanistan used to be far more modern than it is today--I'm sure the majority of Afghan immigrants would be as happy to integrate as most groups. The bigger concern is whether their neighbors would let them.

No, I'm not concerned about Arabs or Muslims. Generally they integrate just fine in the US. I'm concerned about more extreme religious people, especially in large enough numbers that they could isolate themselves, which is how extremism brews. A language barrier makes things worse. If the US does accept refugees, either they should be sufficiently small in number (per locale) or should be moderate, and should either speak English or should be encouraged to enroll in courses to learn it (especially the younger ones). Now, there's the additional issue of Americans accepting them, but I don't think that's a big deal in most of the country - in any case, nothing compared to the persecution they'd face in Afghanistan.

Mohammad Ashan, a mid-level Taliban commander in Paktika province, strolled toward a police checkpoint in the district of Sar Howza with a wanted poster bearing his own face. He demanded the finder’s fee referenced on the poster: $100.

Afghan officials, perplexed by the man’s misguided motives, arrested him on the spot. Ashan is suspected of plotting at least two attacks on Afghan security forces. His misdeeds prompted officials to plaster the district with hundreds of so-called “Be on the Lookout” posters emblazoned with his name and likeness.

When U.S. troops went to confirm that Ashan had in fact come forward to claim the finder’s fee, they were initially incredulous.

Mohammad Ashan, a mid-level Taliban commander in Paktika province, strolled toward a police checkpoint in the district of Sar Howza with a wanted poster bearing his own face. He demanded the finder’s fee referenced on the poster: $100.

Afghan officials, perplexed by the man’s misguided motives, arrested him on the spot. Ashan is suspected of plotting at least two attacks on Afghan security forces. His misdeeds prompted officials to plaster the district with hundreds of so-called “Be on the Lookout” posters emblazoned with his name and likeness.

When U.S. troops went to confirm that Ashan had in fact come forward to claim the finder’s fee, they were initially incredulous.

Mohammad Ashan, a mid-level Taliban commander in Paktika province, strolled toward a police checkpoint in the district of Sar Howza with a wanted poster bearing his own face. He demanded the finder’s fee referenced on the poster: $100.

Afghan officials, perplexed by the man’s misguided motives, arrested him on the spot. Ashan is suspected of plotting at least two attacks on Afghan security forces. His misdeeds prompted officials to plaster the district with hundreds of so-called “Be on the Lookout” posters emblazoned with his name and likeness.

When U.S. troops went to confirm that Ashan had in fact come forward to claim the finder’s fee, they were initially incredulous.

France doesn't want any part of the immigrant's culture. That is the source of their problem.

It's only a problem if you think you have an obligation to let anyone who wants to enter the country which belongs to you, do so.

There is no reason the French should want less-advanced cultures, but they haven't figured out how to lock the gates. If you own a country, you don't have to give it up unless your preferred social construct says you are worthless and everyone else deserves what you have more than you do.

To say you must let everyone in inevitably means that your society must become as they vote it to be. You give POWER to every immigrant, so if you refuse to sort them, you are obliged to turn your country into Zimbabwe or Iran if there are sufficient votes. Never forget that truth.

The idea the fortunate are obliged to give until they are fortunate no more is not one I agree with.

Mohammad Ashan, a mid-level Taliban commander in Paktika province, strolled toward a police checkpoint in the district of Sar Howza with a wanted poster bearing his own face. He demanded the finder’s fee referenced on the poster: $100.

Afghan officials, perplexed by the man’s misguided motives, arrested him on the spot. Ashan is suspected of plotting at least two attacks on Afghan security forces. His misdeeds prompted officials to plaster the district with hundreds of so-called “Be on the Lookout” posters emblazoned with his name and likeness.

When U.S. troops went to confirm that Ashan had in fact come forward to claim the finder’s fee, they were initially incredulous.

Mohammad Ashan, a mid-level Taliban commander in Paktika province, strolled toward a police checkpoint in the district of Sar Howza with a wanted poster bearing his own face. He demanded the finder’s fee referenced on the poster: $100.

Afghan officials, perplexed by the man’s misguided motives, arrested him on the spot. Ashan is suspected of plotting at least two attacks on Afghan security forces. His misdeeds prompted officials to plaster the district with hundreds of so-called “Be on the Lookout” posters emblazoned with his name and likeness.

When U.S. troops went to confirm that Ashan had in fact come forward to claim the finder’s fee, they were initially incredulous.

Compounding the problem is the increasingly expensive and incapable military establishment. As the defense budget continues to grow, the military is less able to deliver desirable political outcomes in America’s conflicts. The high spending of the GWoT did not produce a correlating increase in American security; instead, it hastened the coming crisis facing the military. Increasingly expensive and complex weapon systems reduce the availability of military forces, and restrict their flexibility by requiring them to operate equipment and execute doctrines ill-suited for the demands of war. Last year, the Department of Defense announced that the Army alone will lose 50,000 personnel in an effort to reduce costs. Predictably, just last week, it was announced that the cost of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will increase by 20 billion dollars and that it’s lifetime cost is expected to be at least 1.45 trillion dollars. As the military continues to break its own suicide records and maintain higher-than-average domestic violence, divorce, and sexual assault rates, it decides to decrease the number of personnel available for worldwide military operations in favor of over-priced military platforms incapable of performing basic military tasks like surviving contact with the enemy.

It seems like it would be the same reason hunters pose with their kills, or people take pictures after summiting a mountain or reaching the North Pole. They think of it as an accomplishment and want to capture the moment. (just my guess, I didn't read the article)

What ISN'T natural is regretting slaying your enemies, mourning their destruction as some sort of loss to the human collective, or craving to apply respectful corpse disposal rituals to them.

There are VERY good strategic and tactical and political reasons to pretend you believe in that shit, but no reasons to genuinely believe in it. Military discipline is therefore necessary to coerce useful but un-natural behaviours. That will solve most of the problem, which appears to be tiny in scale compared to previous wars.

What ISN'T natural is regretting slaying your enemies, mourning their destruction as some sort of loss to the human collective, or craving to apply respectful corpse disposal rituals to them.

There are VERY good strategic and tactical and political reasons to pretend you believe in that shit, but no reasons to genuinely believe in it. Military discipline is therefore necessary to coerce useful but un-natural behaviours. That will solve most of the problem, which appears to be tiny in scale compared to previous wars.

Though humans can be aggressive instinctively or due to a threat our natural tendencies are to cooperation. War is a warping of that primal nature to defend ourselves simply because it has to be manufactured in most cases. I suspect the trophy hunters have dehumanized their enemy so as to handle killing them or they are damaged to begin with.

The findings, published in the latest issue of Current Biology, explain why chimpanzees sometimes brutally kill their neighbors. The killings are most often done by patrolling packs of male chimps that are "quiet and move with stealth," according to lead author John Mitani of the University of Michigan.

To the victors go similar spoils of early human wars: land, often-improved security and strength, extra food and resources, and even better access to females.

"There are certainly valid parallels, and there is literature which discusses the territorial behavior of common chimpanzees in explaining the evolution of human warfare," co-author Sylvia Amsler told Discovery News.

Clothing, running water, living indoors, antibiotics, all of modern medicine. There's plenty of things that we do that are completely unnatural.

The first and third (caves, tents/huts) are quite natural to humans. War is profoundly natural to humans, for good or ill, as demonstrated relentlessly by....wars. War trumps "everything else" hence its popularity as a dispute-resolution tool down the ages.

"Natural" /= "universal good". It is more honest to express your disapproval of war in general by saying exactly that, without trying to invoke a "natural" support which doesn't exist.

Clothing, running water, living indoors, antibiotics, all of modern medicine. There's plenty of things that we do that are completely unnatural.

The first and third (caves, tents/huts) are quite natural to humans. War is profoundly natural to humans, for good or ill, as demonstrated relentlessly by....wars. War trumps "everything else" hence its popularity as a dispute-resolution tool down the ages.

"Natural" /= "universal good". It is more honest to express your disapproval of war in general by saying exactly that, without trying to invoke a "natural" support which doesn't exist.

I'm not talking about apes or chimpanzees. I'm talking about homo sapiens. Even apes will battle only if threatened or require food, water and someone stands in their way. HP's will battle because someone, somewhere has decided they should do so without any direct threat to the soldier.

In August 2011, Karzai pardoned dozens of child would-be suicide bombers, and in February 2012 some of the pardoned children were re-arrested attempting to commit suicide bombings in Kandahar Province.[113]

I didn't know also that Afghanistan is rated the 2nd most corrupt country in the world.