We know the village was founded by the first and second Hokage. And when we see the battle of 1st and 2nd VS 3rd we see that the 1st and second used water attacks and the other used earth element attacks. So this is my theory. The first and Seconfd came from the village of MIst and the other from the village of earth. Probably they wanted to make a difference in the wolrd, since u all know the story of zabusa(sorry if i miss spelled) they let the gennin kill each other in the exam. From the earth village we dont know much. So they formed a small village and soon grew on power, and became as strong as the sand village. If u guys remeber the part were the jounin instructor talked to gaara and the other about how the feudal lord cut their founds or mony and gave it more than half to the village of leaf after the war. Probably the war that we are always hearing( the one that tsunade bro die, and boyfriend) is the war of LEaf against Sand. So the Sand went in to war with village because it was becoming stronger and the sand was losing clients and aslo losing the favorof the feudals. As we know the leaf won the war and the feudal gave more $$ to the leaf and the Sand became poor. Probably the hidden village of leaf started like the Hidden village Falls or SOund a smlla village with few ninja from around the world who wanted to make a differentce.
IT IS TIME TO DEBAT
(sorry for the miss spelled words)

naruto_117

2004-09-18 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by strategos

We know the village was founded by the first and second Hokage. And when we see the battle of 1st and 2nd VS 3rd we see that the 1st and second used water attacks and the other used earth element attacks. So this is my theory. The first and Seconfd came from the village of MIst and the other from the village of earth. Probably they wanted to make a difference in the wolrd, since u all know the story of zabusa(sorry if i miss spelled) they let the gennin kill each other in the exam. From the earth village we dont know much. So they formed a small village and soon grew on power, and became as strong as the sand village. If u guys remeber the part were the jounin instructor talked to gaara and the other about how the feudal lord cut their founds or mony and gave it more than half to the village of leaf after the war. Probably the war that we are always hearing( the one that tsunade bro die, and boyfriend) is the war of LEaf against Sand. So the Sand went in to war with village because it was becoming stronger and the sand was losing clients and aslo losing the favorof the feudals. As we know the leaf won the war and the feudal gave more $$ to the leaf and the Sand became poor. Probably the hidden village of leaf started like the Hidden village Falls or SOund a smlla village with few ninja from around the world who wanted to make a differentce.
IT IS TIME TO DEBAT
(sorry for the miss spelled words)

That seems very likely but you are thinking too hard. I think I would agree with you.

xyrrus

2004-09-18 19:46

What makes you think Mist and Earth villages existed before Leaf did? For a village like the leaf to be so huge, in population and in military power, I would think the other villages came in after.

naruto_117

2004-09-18 22:06

What if Orochimaru attacked the mist and earth village before konoha. Orochimaru likes power so I wouldnt be surprised if he did. :hmm:

strategos

2004-09-18 22:27

because 1 the one who formed the village was the 1st and 2nd
so the village doesnt have lets say like 75 years o forming
second, the 1st and second used water and earth technique,
so they most be from that area.
why did orichimaru used the sand village. because
he knew their weak spot.
He knew that the village of Sand wanted to regain the capital power that
the village won in the war.
But in the end the sand fell for the trap.

Animizzle

2004-09-18 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by xyrrus

What makes you think Mist and Earth villages existed before Leaf did? For a village like the leaf to be so huge, in population and in military power, I would think the other villages came in after.

well..America is made of colonist and IS the strongest country in the world...

neodrag38

2004-09-18 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animizzle

well..America is made of colonist and IS the strongest country in the world...

You have a slight point there.

xyrrus

2004-09-18 23:00

You can't compare a cartoon with the real world, there are no guns, no nukes, biological, or any other advanced weaponry that calculates into nation power not to mention other factors that calculate into America being strong(wealth, technology, etc.) The Naruto universe rely only on the combined strenth and ability of each individual. If you remove all the weapons in the world, all the things that do not exist in Naruto and assume that war is fought hand to hand, then you would have to say China is the strongest country in the world, cuz the population alone would equate to 10:1 or prob higher ratio of Chinese to American. But whatever, I was merely pointing out in my original post is that we don't even know if Konoha came last or first. Just because the 1st and 2nd used earth and water elemental techniques does not necessarily mean that they originally came from earth and mist village.

Animizzle

2004-09-18 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by xyrrus

You can't compare a cartoon with the real world, there are no guns, no nukes, biological, or any other advanced weaponry that calculates into nation power not to mention other factors that calculate into America being strong(wealth, technology, etc.) The Naruto universe rely only on the combined strenth and ability of each individual. If you remove all the weapons in the world, all the things that do not exist in Naruto and assume that war is fought hand to hand, then you would have to say China is the strongest country in the world, cuz the population alone would equate to 10:1 or prob higher ratio of Chinese to American.

lol, ok mate, there ar no guns and nukes. but what do you know? there ARE 50 feet snakes, fire spitting Ninja's and mind controling techniques. nice going there.

Quote:

But whatever, I was merely pointing out in my original post is that we don't even know if Konoha came last or first. Just because the 1st and 2nd used earth and water elemental techniques does not necessarily mean that they originally came from earth and mist village.

Absolutely True, but it was an ok theory and your argument against it sucked.

wb_hicks

2004-09-18 23:56

i dont agree with that seeing that the 1st and second are brothers. so them being from different villages is unlikely. also the 3rd used most fire attacks. the 5th doesnt use none of the jutsu of the 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th.

Genei Killua

2004-09-19 00:13

I think that rather than founding the actual village, the 1st and 2nd kinda changed the name of the city and founded the order of the Hidden Leaf ninja, or whatever you want to call it. It'd be kinda ridiculous to think that the most powerful village in the world was created like 70 years ago--especially when you start talking about the bloodlines of the Uchiha and Hyuuga, which don't exactly evolve in terms of decades. It's highly likely that there were ninjas there for centuries, probably in rival clans or whatnot, until they were united into the Leaf Village.

Procrastinator_CA

2004-09-19 02:41

Well, I think that the immigration theory is perfectly valid. Cities (especially in Western North America) have been known to grow from 0 to 500,000 people in less than 25 years.

As for the clans, they may be refugees from different villages. Take the Uchiha Clan for example. In order to get the Mange Sharingan, an Uchiha must kill his best friend. Now it happens that in Mist Village (before the Zabuza Incident), you must kill your best friend in order to become a genin. A perfect place for an Uchiha, isn't it? Mist is also known to kill any group of people who has any hint of having a bloodline limit, fearing that they are warmongers, so anyone with a bloodline limit either went underground (like Haku's clan), or more probably, emigrated from Mist.

raikage

2004-09-19 03:24

In addition, Konoha seems very peace-oriented. In a time of world strife, it's not too far out (for me) to imagine that a group of like-minded war-haters banded together to create a nation.

M3velez

2004-09-19 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animizzle

lol, ok mate, there ar no guns and nukes. but what do you know? there ARE 50 feet snakes, fire spitting Ninja's and mind controling techniques. nice going there.

There are guns in naruto, on the wave arc, when Sakura was visiting the market with the bridge builder, there is a rifle near the cash register.

VMLM3

2004-09-19 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by strategos

We know the village was founded by the first and second Hokage. And when we see the battle of 1st and 2nd VS 3rd we see that the 1st and second used water attacks and the other used earth element attacks. So this is my theory. The first and Seconfd came from the village of MIst and the other from the village of earth. Probably they wanted to make a difference in the wolrd, since u all know the story of zabusa(sorry if i miss spelled) they let the gennin kill each other in the exam. From the earth village we dont know much. So they formed a small village and soon grew on power, and became as strong as the sand village. If u guys remeber the part were the jounin instructor talked to gaara and the other about how the feudal lord cut their founds or mony and gave it more than half to the village of leaf after the war. Probably the war that we are always hearing( the one that tsunade bro die, and boyfriend) is the war of LEaf against Sand. So the Sand went in to war with village because it was becoming stronger and the sand was losing clients and aslo losing the favorof the feudals. As we know the leaf won the war and the feudal gave more $$ to the leaf and the Sand became poor. Probably the hidden village of leaf started like the Hidden village Falls or SOund a smlla village with few ninja from around the world who wanted to make a differentce.
IT IS TIME TO DEBAT
(sorry for the miss spelled words)

We already know what war they're talking about. During the period of the First Hokage war raged between the larger ninja villages, it's supposedly the First who finally puts an end to the war or somehow brings peace to Konoha. Basically what I imagine must of happened is this:
Before the war, the First and some followers, tired of living under someone else's rule (probably..) leave whatever village they came from (could be rock, we don't know at this point, personally I don't think so because I don't believe it existed yet.. keep reading to see what I'm talking about.) arrive at a not so powerful ninja village and take over. Slowly this village grows in strength, during which time other villages do the same, develop, extending their power through the conquering of nearby feuds, cities, villages, etc. (I say conquered because I believe that the first thing ninjas would've tried to do upon realizing they where very powerful would've been to try and take over their surroundings, rather than work for money, I believe that system arises later) .
As the villages grow they start clashing with one another, war ensues. In the war some are destroyed and some become stronger through the conflict. As of yet unconquered, or for some reason disprotected (maybe the ninja villaged they belonged to was destroyed) non-ninja lands realize they don't stand a chance by themselves and hurry to find protection, offering payment to a certain village for continued protection against the other villages. Nearing the end of the war the five major countries consolidate around the surviving ninja villages, the smaller countries probably never banded with a village because they either didn't need to (for example the wave country would've been pretty much outside the area of conflict so it wouldn't need much protection) or they didn't have that option.
As we know at present two important things happened during the war: 1. Konoha allied with the Sand, 2. The war ended when Konoha signed a peace treaty with the Lightning village. So probably the countries start allying with each other, finally creating a stalemate of sorts. At this point the first probably kills a very bad man who wants the war to continue (probably from the lightning village) or manages to make the other villages agree on peace through Diplomacy from a Position of Strength. The war ends and the five villages recognize each other as the sovereign powers, this is probably the point at which the Kage title is instituted and granted to the leaders of the five villages. So, through the conflict the Hidden Leaf has deveoped a strong sense of loyalty both towards the First and towards their now very powerful village, which is probably why the recognize the First as the founder of Konoha, even though the village may have existed before he got there.
About the ninja villages becoming protectors rather than rulers, it's probable that at some time during the war the ninja villages realize they can't possibly control the lands they have and fight a war with their meager numbers (ninjas may be very powerful but there aren't very many of them). So in order not to lose their sovereignty and put at risk the wellbeing of their villages, not to mention prevent civil war on top of a ninja war, they instead offer protection against other ninjas and demand payment for this protection, the non-ninja villages, partly through political pressure (it would be very bad if your sworn enemy had ninja at their disposal and you didn't) and partly because they know it's better to be with a ninja village rather than be alone, specially during a war, agree to this.

strategos

2004-09-19 14:06

Possible Spoiler

Probably there was one Villag, that had control of everything. THat would be a good idea. ANd the point of the Uchiha beoiing in the Village of MIst is an Interesting theory. Because we Know they have the ability to become stronger if they kille their best friends, so is it true that would fit in a MIst type of country. ANd for those who read the manga, we see the flash back of Sasuke, And know that they talk about the position of the Uchiha in the Village. They were like Policeman of the Village. So probably the Uchiha Clan moved with the 1st or 2nd Hokage, the one who did the water technique against the third Hokage. What about the other clan? WEll proably they were small clans from that area. If u see the episode of JUMP FEST 2004 we see a very small village that didnt have a hokage only a leader. So the clans have leader. OR either the clan moved from the original village or they were near the formation of Leaf.
The Sand attacked the leaf with Oro, ecuasethey wanted to regain the feudal funds or money. Orochimaru strike them were it hurted the most, they weak point that he Kne. That the Sand loss almost all ttheir capital power because of the leaf. And they wanted it back

Hunter

2004-09-19 14:42

We don't know many things from this period of the Naruto universe.

But we do know that it was a bloody and dark period and that the Ninjas were all at war.
There were ninja clans before the existence of Konoha and probably before the creation of any of the 5 Great hidden villages.

I think that during the ninja world war, there were many little hidden villages, sometimes just composed of one clan at war against all the other, creating some short alliance with the other clans to fight and destroy the current opponent, then changing their alliance at once to turn over against their old allies.

An era of chaos.

The Shodaime created the Leaf from an alliance, a confederation of several clans, joined together into a big hidden village ninja.
And he became the First leader of this new village.

VMLM3

2004-09-19 14:53

I'd really like it if Kishimoto would go into some detail about this period, seriously the story behind the ninja wars is bound te be pretty damn interesting.

Animizzle

2004-09-19 15:11

And this idea behind this new village appealed to a lot of strong ninja's hence Konoha had such strong clans.

Thing that struck me a bit odd is Konoha's age, Sarutobi was 68 when he died. In the flashback of young Sarutobi the first(and the second for that matter) seemed 40-ish to me, 50 if you will, but no more then that.

Taking 45 as the age of the first in the flashback and 12 for Saruboti.
The first founded Konoha in his 20's perhaps? It would't seem plausible to create village's when your 15 so 20 at it's earliest seems reasonable.

now for the mathematics.

45-12 = 33 (age of first when sarutobi was born)
20 = age of first creating Konoha
68 = age of Sarutobi dying
68 + 13(33-20) = 81 years of Konoha

The numbers I'v taken for the ages are quite small, Personally I don't think the first created a village at 20 So I think Konoha is even younger. But for the sake of argument I used these.

Most Dad's of genin's are like..30-40 so they should have their father's around somewhere wich should be in their 50-60's. Their grandfathers would be 80-90 at that's over Konoha's probable age.
All in all that's like..3 generations of each clan while IN konoha. So....

Holy shit...I just realized I have nowhere to go with this, I thought I was making a point but im not...

I'll post it anyway for critisim on my calculation

Hunter

2004-09-19 15:25

Well Animizzle the fact that Konoha exists since only 5~6 generations ie 80~85 years at best prove that the ninja clans existed probably way before the creation of Konoha, that's a point ;)

Except if the ninjas suddenly appeared out of no-where of course.
The ninja spontaneous generation :D