Post by crocodile on Aug 23, 2015 19:49:41 GMT -6

At the $2.5 million mark, Classic Mode was funded - essentially a smaller game designed akin to all the 2D Castlevania games that preceded SOTN. It was described as such:

"This is a cool one, especially if you've been playing action platformers since controllers had two buttons: In Classic Mode, existing assets and screens from the game will be rearranged linearly, to reward timing and survival instead of backtracking and exploration.

IGA and company are still too early in the planning process to promise anything, but right now he's envisioning six punishing stages. In grand classic platformer fashion, you'll be weaker and the enemies will be stronger, and forget about saving yourself by grinding—no RPG elements here.

If you've always preferred your castles punishingly difficult, straightforward, and scrolling from left to right, this is the stretch goal for you."

While I'm sure most on this forum supported the KS for Igavania gameplay and may be bigger fans of the Igavania model than the Classicvania model, there are still a ton of people here and elsewhere looking forward to Classic Mode. I actually haven't gotten a chance to play a lot of the Classicvania games but from everything I've read and heard, people overall seem to be big fans of the movement of Super Casltevania IV (though it could probably be made even smoother) and the level design of Rondo of Blood (branching paths, few bottomless pits, etc.). A lot of people seemed to like the partner system of Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse but I figure alternate playable characters are better handled like in Rondo of Blood?

Is this a consensus you agree with? What was your favorite Classicvania game and why? What elements of that game(s) would you like to see in Bloodstained's Classic Mode?

Post by gunlord500 on Aug 23, 2015 20:07:22 GMT -6

My favorite Classicvania would probably be SCIV, though that may just be nostalgia...it was the first Castlevania game I played with my best friend.

To be as classic as possible, I guess they'd have to stick with the SC1/SCIV formula (one character going through a set of stages, *maybe* with branching paths), but thinking about it, I suspect there may be no reason not to go with the Rondo formula. There are already multiple playable characters, so why not use them in a classicvania?

Post by Lelygax on Aug 23, 2015 23:57:12 GMT -6

While I doubt that it will be possible, I want something like a mix between CV3 and "Magical Quest 3: starring Mikcey and Donald" or even Trine where you can play it totally alone or with a friend. 1P Mode would let you change characters whenever you want if you've already encountered them while 2P Mode would do almost the same but only one player can be the same character at time.

To simplify, lets say tha 1P is controlling Miriam. Now the second player can only change from Johannes to Zangetsu until 1P isn't using Miriam anymore because he died or because he changed to another available character. This way never something like "I need Johannes if I want to take this path but I choose another character" or "Shit, its only possible to clear this stage with Miriam and now I need to restart it because we two didn't choose her" will happen.

A game named Kage and even Contra itself shows that games like these can have a 2P Mode:

If they could do something like HoDespair with more than 2 players, level ups and still be challenging, I think that they can balance it well with only 2 players in a classic mode without stat changes. Im not even asking for online multiplayer since it could cost more, couch multiplayer is ok. Since IGA said in a interview or Ask IGA that multiplayer in the main mode would disrupt the flow of the game (I don't remember if I saw it in a old CV interview or it is content from this year, it can even be a PoR interview), why not add it in classic mode? It would be better than some Boss Rush or Time Trial.

Post by Astaroth on Aug 25, 2015 20:26:33 GMT -6

castlevania 1/3 with that Iga flair, something so hard i wanna throw my controller, but precise enough and with that perilous platforming that makes me rage that i screwed up, very few games are hard because of the difficulty and not the camera, or the controls, or the lag, or bad translation >.> cough castlevania 2 even though i love you cough <.<GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER!

Post by purifyweirdsoul on Aug 26, 2015 12:06:36 GMT -6

I really like Dracula's Curse and Rondo. I really think Classic Mode will be exactly as it's described, just a linear left-to-right side scroller with set equipment using assets already in the game.

But anyway, things I like about my favorite Classicvanias:CV3 is the best of the NES era Castlevanias to me. The difficulty balance and stage/character variety is great, as is the music. It's a contender for my favorite CV game overall.And so is Rondo. Beautiful visually, great music again, and so many secrets and branching paths. I actually prefer CV3 or Julius mode character switching over how Rondo does it, though, generally because Maria is just superior lol. With CV3/Julius style, each character generally has something that you need them for. If it's the other way around and there's one selectable from the start, one has usually been better than the other. Often, you just play Richter just because you want to, not really because he's per se better suited for anything in particular.

CV4 (get ready for an unpopular opinion)...I don't know, I played it later in life and it just never really appealed to me as much. It looked and sounded drab in comparison to Bloodlines. The cross, being both strong in this game and a favorite weapon of mine, just looked and felt off (maybe it was the beige color?). I didn't care anything about the 8-direction attacking, swinging, crouch walking, etc etc. I guess those are nice features, but I'd probably had rather just had something that felt like a graphically updated CV3 for gameplay, keeping things more simple and minimalist for the sake of how the game flows. Same goes for like how they used Mode 7/rotating stages, etc...I mean...that's kinda all right, I guess?

Speaking of Classic Mode, though, it would be really nice if there were old style power-ups in the candles/from enemies instead of money/item drops. The rosary, the II/III icons, maybe the whip icons (or sword/spell book) power-ups to increase attack power and change the animation. I really liked that about the old games, too, how you would upgrade or change your weapons from power-ups.

Post by Everett Spair on Aug 28, 2015 0:09:40 GMT -6

I love Super Castlevania IV so I'd think that the controls in that is a good place to start just make them a bit more smoother.Branching paths would be interesting but also more work. I'll be perfectly happy with just a straight line.

Post by Net Spectre on Aug 28, 2015 10:14:39 GMT -6

I would absolutely love to see something close to Bloodlines.Super Castlevania IV never really appealed to me (aside from that amazing versatile whip, that actually was useful now, in comparison with other Classicvanias).

Post by crocodile on Sept 6, 2015 20:31:42 GMT -6

So with 3 playable characters - is there a consensus on how people want them to be handled in Classic Mode (since I assume such a decision will impact how the levels are designed)? Do people prefer it like in Castlevania 3: Dracula' Curse (you can swap characters mid-stage, think of Julius Mode in Dawn of Sorrow) or rather like Rondo of Blood (you can only swap characters at the beginning of a stage or the beginning of the game). I think I might be leaning towards Rondo style for the cleanliness of it all and I think it offers better challenge but I'm still thinking it over. Do others agree or disagree?

Aside from that, are there any other aspects/ideas/designs from past Classicvanias you'd like to see re-explored or refined in Bloodstained's Classic Mode?

Post by purifyweirdsoul on Sept 8, 2015 7:39:39 GMT -6

I actually prefer CV3 or Julius mode character switching over how Rondo does it, though, generally because Maria is just superior lol. With CV3/Julius style, each character generally has something that you need them for. If it's the other way around and there's one selectable from the start, one has usually been better than the other. Often, you just play Richter just because you want to, not really because he's per se better suited for anything in particular.

To expound on what I mean, it was more that every character in CV3 had a specialty, something only they could do. You didn't per se need any one character to specifically get somewhere others couldn't, but they all excelled in different areas. Trevor is a strong all-around brawler with a good standard attack and subweapons, Grant is a dagger specialist with a climbing ability, Sypha has strong offense in magic, Alucard can fly. You pick one out of the extra three characters to make the game easier on yourself or more fun as you see fit.

Starting with one character over another from the beginning, you're more likely to have a case of one character benig superior to the other. They both will likely have all they need to clear the game and reach everywhere they need to go, so most people will probably choose whoever ends up being the strongest/fastest while the other two become more or less a novelty. In games like these, much more than the developers intended end up being discovered, often to the point of making some choices look very good or bad. I'm all for the challenge and being unique, personally, but I know a lot of players out there just want to look up what's good before even playing the game. If you're instead always going in with 2-3 characters, then more characters have their chance to shine regardless.

Now, I can see the merits of both ways, especially if in the other method's case none of the characters obviously outclass the others. In Maria's case, she's just outright superior. She DOES get to reach places Richter can't go and she has better mobility, also stronger sub weapon item crashes. Her regular attack isn't as strong and she can't take as many hits, but those become non-issues when you just dodge everything and collect enough hearts to blast the boss with a one shot dragon super at the end of the stage. If you select one out of three at the begining of the game and you're stuck with them, then I hope that they're perhaps more like specialists in certain areas, or appeal to certain playstyles. That way, we're not just seeing x character everywhere the game is played.

Like I said, I'm fine with characters being weaker and I'll still play them, but I'd rather everybody be useful enough to get significant play...and a safe way to go about that is to include more than one at a time. I would say that one character at a time is better as far as immersiveness and just the feel of exploring the castle, but this in itself is an extra mode, so we'll be getting a lot of going it alone with Miriam (and other playable characters' modes?) in the main game.

edit: ^ That in itself is another thing to consider. We may already be able to play with Johannes, Zangetsu and/or Gebel in the main game as extra "Richter" style characters, so for variety's sake, it might be more different/interesting to have in-game switching like that in Classic Mode.

Post by ReySol on Sept 8, 2015 13:11:03 GMT -6

I am fine with whatever suits the story, what makes sense. I like when the alternative characters have their own story, and not just running the same levels/places for the sake of it. I loved what they did in Dawn, with Julius mode having a different boss. When you play with three characters at a time (switching them), you lose the emotional connection with the character so that is a minus. Although, that mode can be more interesting because you can do more things at a time. I also liked how it was in Rondo, choosing Richter or Maria. Maria might be the way how the easy mode was implemented (although she takes just a few hits to die). Both systems are great! Let IGA and the team choose what makes sense for this game and then the next game will be different. It is good to vary modes like that, from game to game. There is no ″best″ in my opinion.

Post by crocodile on Sept 8, 2015 15:13:17 GMT -6

I actually prefer CV3 or Julius mode character switching over how Rondo does it, though, generally because Maria is just superior lol. With CV3/Julius style, each character generally has something that you need them for. If it's the other way around and there's one selectable from the start, one has usually been better than the other. Often, you just play Richter just because you want to, not really because he's per se better suited for anything in particular.

To expound on what I mean, it was more that every character in CV3 had a specialty, something only they could do. You didn't per se need any one character to specifically get somewhere others couldn't, but they all excelled in different areas. Trevor is a strong all-around brawler with a good standard attack and subweapons, Grant is a dagger specialist with a climbing ability, Sypha has strong offense in magic, Alucard can fly. You pick one out of the extra three characters to make the game easier on yourself or more fun as you see fit.

Starting with one character over another from the beginning, you're more likely to have a case of one character benig superior to the other. They both will likely have all they need to clear the game and reach everywhere they need to go, so most people will probably choose whoever ends up being the strongest/fastest while the other two become more or less a novelty. In games like these, much more than the developers intended end up being discovered, often to the point of making some choices look very good or bad. I'm all for the challenge and being unique, personally, but I know a lot of players out there just want to look up what's good before even playing the game. If you're instead always going in with 2-3 characters, then more characters have their chance to shine regardless.

Now, I can see the merits of both ways, especially if in the other method's case none of the characters obviously outclass the others. In Maria's case, she's just outright superior. She DOES get to reach places Richter can't go and she has better mobility, also stronger sub weapon item crashes. Her regular attack isn't as strong and she can't take as many hits, but those become non-issues when you just dodge everything and collect enough hearts to blast the boss with a one shot dragon super at the end of the stage. If you select one out of three at the begining of the game and you're stuck with them, then I hope that they're perhaps more like specialists in certain areas, or appeal to certain playstyles. That way, we're not just seeing x character everywhere the game is played.

Like I said, I'm fine with characters being weaker and I'll still play them, but I'd rather everybody be useful enough to get significant play...and a safe way to go about that is to include more than one at a time. I would say that one character at a time is better as far as immersiveness and just the feel of exploring the castle, but this in itself is an extra mode, so we'll be getting a lot of going it alone with Miriam (and other playable characters' modes?) in the main game.

edit: ^ That in itself is another thing to consider. We may already be able to play with Johannes, Zangetsu and/or Gebel in the main game as extra "Richter" style characters, so for variety's sake, it might be more different/interesting to have in-game switching like that in Classic Mode.

I saw your earlier post and I saw this one, both of which I appreciate Thanks for the elaboration!

I was just trying to encourage conversation because I want to hear more thoughts on this. This will likely be one of the more important sub modes in the game. I of course trust IGA and crew to deliver something spectacular even sans our input but if we can make our thoughts & wishes heard (and they are reasonable), the earlier we say something, the better I would say.

Whenever you have multiple playable characters, the fear is always there will be some massive imbalance - that is something they can hopefully avoid. Maria vs. Richter in Rondo of Blood certainly was imbalanced but it was not that imbalance that I would want to carry over to any future games. I will say though, IF one character were to stand heads & shoulders above the rest, wouldn't you just not switch ever/often in stages even if you had the option? Just solo it with whichever character was "the best"? Thinking about it more, it might be more fun to force you to overcome challenges as a specific character if you make them all specialists but still overall balanced with respect to each other. So if a particular stage is hard for a particular character (but still very doable of course) you don't have the option of switching. Ideally, even if one stage/ segment was hard for character X, there would be enough other points in the game equally hard for the other characters so that it ends up well distributed in the end. I think there are certainly pros and cons for both styles but I don't think either style would solve balance issues if they arose. That's on IGA and crew to design the characters well.

Post by Rigel on Sept 9, 2015 9:35:28 GMT -6

So with 3 playable characters - is there a consensus on how people want them to be handled in Classic Mode (since I assume such a decision will impact how the levels are designed)? Do people prefer it like in Castlevania 3: Dracula' Curse (you can swap characters mid-stage, think of Julius Mode in Dawn of Sorrow) or rather like Rondo of Blood (you can only swap characters at the beginning of a stage or the beginning of the game). I think I might be leaning towards Rondo style for the cleanliness of it all and I think it offers better challenge but I'm still thinking it over. Do others agree or disagree?

Aside from that, are there any other aspects/ideas/designs from past Classicvanias you'd like to see re-explored or refined in Bloodstained's Classic Mode?

My favorite Classicvania is SC4, I would like to see something very close to it in the classic mode.

What did you like the most about Super Castlevania 4? Was it just the whip and/or the movement options or did some other aspect(s) of the game really appeal to you?

Well yeah, mostly the ability to whip in many directions and to keep the whip held out to spin it around and of course the swinging, also Simon jumps were more controled. The graphics and animations are something that I like a lot, compared with the other classicvanias.

Post by flavio1 on Sept 16, 2015 7:52:42 GMT -6

Dracula's Curse and Bloodlines are my favorite Classicvanias and I would love Classicstained to take some elements from these two games. Multiple characters and branching paths,both during a stage and at the end of the stage. Also, they could include some mini-boss battles during a stage.

Post by professoricepick on Sept 16, 2015 10:49:36 GMT -6

Honestly, two of my favorite Castlevanias period were Bloodlines and Rondo of Blood, so I'm hoping for elements from both of those to show up in Classic mode. Specifically, I'd like to see multiple branching paths in the stages, based on each playable character's abilities (I guess I'm assuming that all of the playable characters will be available in Classic Mode as well), sort of like how John and Eric had different paths in Bloodlines. I'm also hoping for secret exits/levels in Classic mode, ala Rondo, but that seems way less viable.

Post by jim on Jan 24, 2016 22:20:40 GMT -6

I'm kinda surprised that no one mentioned (or if they did I missed it), that Rondo was the first game that you could both jump ON TO and OFF OF stairs! That was a major advancement that made game play SOOOOO much more enjoyable. Not to mention that Rondo introduced the item crashes. Really, give me CV3 layouts, music, sub weapons, items (double/triple shot, rosary, etc.), and character switching, with CV4's 8 way attack, and Rondo's art, enemy diversity, detail, music, multiple paths, item crashes, and basic game mechanics and I'd say you have a winner.

Post by Astaroth on Jan 24, 2016 23:45:18 GMT -6

i think its mainly cause many consider rondo to be part of igavania, so most of those features fall under the main game in some form, i think what people think of when they think classic mode is cv 1-4 and maybe bloodlines, i think moonstairing should be a feature though >P

Satoru Iwata: "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer.” Game on Iwata-san

Post by crocodile on Jan 25, 2016 0:53:41 GMT -6

i think its mainly cause many consider rondo to be part of igavania, so most of those features fall under the main game in some form, i think what people think of when they think classic mode is cv 1-4 and maybe bloodlines, i think moonstairing should be a feature though >P

I'm not sure I follow. In what way feature wise is Rondo of Blood similar to the Igavanias? The flow together plot wise but gameplay wise there isn't much of a link. Is it because of Richter Mode in SOTN (where he was given extra moves and mobility)?

Post by Astaroth on Jan 25, 2016 1:10:53 GMT -6

i think its mainly cause many consider rondo to be part of igavania, so most of those features fall under the main game in some form, i think what people think of when they think classic mode is cv 1-4 and maybe bloodlines, i think moonstairing should be a feature though >P

I'm not sure I follow. In what way feature wise is Rondo of Blood similar to the Igavanias? The flow together plot wise but gameplay wise there isn't much of a link. Is it because of Richter Mode in SOTN (where he was given extra moves and mobility)?

the fact its a similar visual style to sotn and 32bit, and most people outside of japan were only introduced to it well after sotn was out, even though its classic formula

in any case i honestly think theyll go with 8 or 16bit graphic cause making the tilesets for that would take much less resources than creating 32 bit full rooms

Satoru Iwata: "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer.” Game on Iwata-san

Post by purifyweirdsoul on Jan 25, 2016 12:58:05 GMT -6

Perhaps also because that was the first Castlevania game that Iga had some involvement in? But yeah, for me I consider Rondo a classicvania for sure. I see CV3 as the best of the classics, with Rondo being an outstanding evolution of it. A game just like jim described would be almost perfect, sans the 8-way stuff because...yeah you guys probably know by now I wasn't really into CV4 lol.

Just as I mentioned in the "games I want but aren't happening thread", more classicvania games given treatment similar to The Adventure Rebirth is like, the best possible thing. A new/redone CV3/Rondo style game like that. The sprites don't need to be high res. Just do it.

The sense I'm getting based on this conversation (and since we know there will be multiple characters to play as), that Classic mode should emulate Castlevania III and Rondo of Blood as much as possible with quality of life improvements from Super Castlevania IV. Is that a correct assessment of majority opinion?

I'm not sure I follow. In what way feature wise is Rondo of Blood similar to the Igavanias? The flow together plot wise but gameplay wise there isn't much of a link. Is it because of Richter Mode in SOTN (where he was given extra moves and mobility)?

the fact its a similar visual style to sotn and 32bit, and most people outside of japan were only introduced to it well after sotn was out, even though its classic formula

in any case i honestly think theyll go with 8 or 16bit graphic cause making the tilesets for that would take much less resources than creating 32 bit full rooms

I mean my assumption is that Classic Mode would be made of repurposed assets from the main/regular game. That makes way more sense than creating a whole new style or tileset.

Post by ghaleon on Jan 25, 2016 14:38:48 GMT -6

I never played Super castlevania 4 until sometime after it was released because I was a poor kid and never had an SNES until they were near the end of their generation. But I was a gamer as long as I could remember and I had an NES early enough, and grew up with castlevania on it... I did think 3 was a better game. Yeah being able to whip in multiple directions was cool, but I got used to not being able to do so, not to mention the games were balanced around it, yeah swinging it around in a fluid motion was cool but I don't think it was ever useful for anything other than blocking fireballs and being silly. The graphics were cool but I never was that enamored with graphics back then, and I got it late so its graphics weren't too special anyway by then. 3 Just felt like a bigger game, with more stages, more selection, more challenge. I STILL think I never managed to clear one of the routes involving alucard in that game, maybe I did I don't remember. I just remember having alucard in my group and being stuck on some stage with a tower with falling blocks you have to climb up for a ridiculously long time...long after I could breeze thru the other routes.

Post by jim on Jan 25, 2016 16:57:02 GMT -6

I never played Super castlevania 4 until sometime after it was released because I was a poor kid and never had an SNES until they were near the end of their generation. But I was a gamer as long as I could remember and I had an NES early enough, and grew up with castlevania on it... I did think 3 was a better game. Yeah being able to whip in multiple directions was cool, but I got used to not being able to do so, not to mention the games were balanced around it, yeah swinging it around in a fluid motion was cool but I don't think it was ever useful for anything other than blocking fireballs and being silly. The graphics were cool but I never was that enamored with graphics back then, and I got it late so its graphics weren't too special anyway by then. 3 Just felt like a bigger game, with more stages, more selection, more challenge.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, the grapple mechanics and the 8 way whip (which I did use quite a bit) I thought were great improvements. But coming from CV3, in terms of game play, castle, story, and depth the game felt like a bit of a step backwards to me. The graphics in CV4 were ok, but I always thought they looked a little dull. There were certain parts and enemies (Death) that I thought looked amazing, but the game art as a whole was kind of... *blah*. Even the music wasn't that amazing. There were a couple tracks that stand out, but most of it was kind of ho-hum and other than Vampire Killer I don't know that there were any other "classic" tracks used and for what was supposed to be a "remake" of CV1 that felt kind of cheap. And the free motion whip I did not use at all. It was cute and kinda cool for about 3 seconds and then I completely forgot about it because I couldn't really find any situation in which it was truly useful.

I STILL think I never managed to clear one of the routes involving alucard in that game, maybe I did I don't remember. I just remember having alucard in my group and being stuck on some stage with a tower with falling blocks you have to climb up for a ridiculously long time...long after I could breeze thru the other routes.

crocodile: Thanks for the well wishes everyone. Been busy with life (+ no updates) means I haven't been checking around here super often but do know I still love all you guys Aug 16, 2017 18:11:01 GMT -6