Thursday, March 06, 2008

The good, the bad and our big mouths - Rocklahoma 2008

Welcome to a new segment called "The good, the bad and our big mouths". Theis where Bob-vinyl and I will discuss various musical topics. We decided to have our debut focus on Rocklahoma since the announcement of most of the bands was made this week. So let's get into the bands and what we think of them

-Here are the main stage bands.

Thursday Night acts are:L.A. Guns featuring Tracii Guns-MM-They are the better of the two versions of this band, but that’s like saying losing a finger isn’t as bad as losing your whole hand.BV-These guys weren't great 20 years ago. I liked them more than most bands in the genre at the time, but certainly not enough to see them rehash their 15 minutes of fame now that they're old.Enuff Z nuff-MM-An okay band, but they played last year. Seriously how many people are going to flock to this festival for these guys?BV-I never thought this band had anything going on back then. You'd think they would take the advice implicit in their name and just all it quits.JetboyMM-These guys kind of got lost in the shuffle twenty years ago. I actually think they might come out with a bit of a chip on their shoulder and put on a good show.BV-If they couldn't make in the days when the majors were signing every band worth their weight in hairspray, why should we expect much from them now?Vain-MM-Hey, remember us we were sort of somebody for about two minutes back in 1989.BV-I think you're generous with the "sort of somebody."House of Lords-MM-About as stiff and boring as their band name. I think I have their first album and have still never been able to get through the whole thing.BV-Ouch. I actually kinda liked the name, but their music was so forgettable...that I forgot it.Bret Michaels (solo) is the headliner for Thursday night.MM-Is this going to be like “Rock of love: The musical”?BV-I don't think anyone should expect his set to go better than his love life.

Friday acts are:Kingdom ComeMM-I saw them twenty years ago and I remember them standing around very still and wearing sparkly purple clothes and uh…. oh, yeah they sucked donkey balls too.BV-If I want to hear Led Zeppelin (as I often do), I listen to Led Zeppelin, not some thinly veiled fake.Armored SaintMM-One of the most underrated bands of the 1980’s. They will easily blow away most of the marshmallows on this bill.BV-This is easily the best shot at getting something good on the main stage. Even if they can't live up to their past, they should be much better than most of these bands were in their prime.MM- The only metal band on the main stage. You know what? I’ll bet the majority of the fans of these other fluff acts will choose this time to go get beer or whatever. They don’t want to hear “headbanger stuff” that wasn’t played a million times on the radio in 1987.XYZMM-I remember them as being okay, but kind of like second rate Dokken only with an even worse band name.BV-I think Dokken is pretty forgettable, so second-rate Dokken might actually be memorable...in a bad way.Night RangerMM-Oh, I thought this was Rocklahoma not Lameassapalooza.BV-You might still be able to rock in America, but don't hold your breath for Night Ranger to be doing it.ExtremeMM-I liked them enough back in the early 1990’s, but nowadays I would guess they would be far more limp than anything extreme.BV-Extremely dull.Triumph MM-The band that has spent their career being referred to as “that other hard rock trio from Canada”BV-Considering their middling success, their name might be one of rock n roll's great misnomers.

Saturday:Pretty Boy Floyd MM-Forty some year guys wearing make-up and copying the Crue and Poison. Yet they are still one of the better bands playing on this day.BV-You know it's bad when the best thing about your band is that its name lent itself to parody for a band that was only slightly better.Every Mothers Nightmare-MM-An alright band, but they got lost in a sea of hair bands years ago. I think this is when a lot of people will be taking their potty break.BV-I bet they could be renamed Every Fan's Nightmare.Tora Tora-MM-They might be a wildcard. They did two good albums, but “Wild America” was 16 years ago and some of the members have not stayed in music. I think they might be alright, but I doubt they will capture the spirit they had in their prime.BV-I saw them in the early 90s and they put on a good show. I doubt any of the boneheads dumb enough to go to Rocklahoma will be so lucky.Black N’ BlueMM-Jaimie St. James sounds like his voice is going out on him. Then again you don’t have to be that good to sing “From the school of hard knocks we’ve come to rock your socks off”.BV-Wow, hair metal poets. The only bigger morons are the people dumb enough to enjoy this crap.TrixterMM-The band after them will benefit from this band’s sure to be worthless performance. Then again a monkey beating on a drum with a stick would sound spectacular if he played after Trixter.BV-Trixter was one of the worst the genre had to offer just before it thankfully died. What makes anyone think time has been kind?KixMM-About two months ago vocalist Steve Whiteman’s other band Funny Money played in my hometown at a dinky little hole in the wall bar that’s basically the basement of a Greek restaurant. Yet I am still not sure if playing Rocklahoma is a step up or a step down for Steve.BV-I still can't believe that Kix was able to break out into the national arena even for a short time. When they do "Don't Close Your Eyes," atleast that still leaves open the possibility of closing your ears.Warrant (with Jani Lane)MM-Wow, Jani Lane is back and I still don’t give a shit about this band.BV-Warrant is perhaps the best example of how business generally makes for bad music. Even though the money isn't there anymore, the music hasn't improved. They are easily one of rock's worst bands of all time.Cinderella MM-Even if Tom Keifer’s voice isn’t what it used to be and even though they have not played together in two years I still say they will come out and play a good show.BV-Other than Armored Saint, this is probably the best main stage band, but I still wouldn't pay money to see them.

Sunday:AxeMM-Everybody passed them by even when this style of music was in it’s prime. I guarantee very few people will know who these guys are.BV-Unknown or not, they'll be better than Warrant.Beautiful Creatures MM-This probably works better for Joe Leste than when he played as Bang Tango last year. Their albums were this decade and the sound is decent enough.BV-I can certainly deal with this better than I can Joe Leste using the Bang Tango name. This should be one of the better acts on the bill and I still bet they're old and dull.ZebraMM-Another Zeppelin knockoff although far better than Kingdom Come. I think their prime was too early for most of the people that will be at this festival.BV-I don't care who's behind the door so I long as I can walk through it to avoid listening to this.Lynch Mob MM-Are we going to more impressed by George Lynch’s guitar solos or by the fact that he hasn’t developed skin cancer from trying to make his body look like a bronze statue?BV-I'll go with the latter. Lynch is grossly overrated. In a sense, the fact that he's a little bit more talented than most of his peers yet no more creative makes him worse.TeslaMM- Okay, they will likely be very solid and along with Cinderella they were one of the best hard rock bands of the late 80’s-early 90’s.BV-Another of the handful that might be decent, but I think I can live the rest of my like happier having never seen them than to sit through their set now.

MM-I know a few of these bands, but most of them are old guys that never made it or only made it for a second back in the 1980’s. I remember Mass being pretty good and they had an album out on RCA, but it’s been twenty years since I heard them. I liked Vyper quite a bit, but they broke up in like 85-86 so I don’t know how they managed to dig these guys up. Obviously Retrospect signs bands based on their ability to come up with annoying misspellings for their band names.

BV-There's only a couple here that are even remotely familiar. Ron Keel should really knock 'em dead (or at least make them wish they were dead) with his great voice. With most of these bands, I have to wonder how interesting their music can be with names like those. Not that the name makes the band, but these guys have chosen very derivative names which tells me that they are neither creative nor clever.

MM-Gypsy Pistoleros are the best thing to happen to glam in years. They have been touring steadily since playing last year’s festival so I think they will be great. Dirty Penny are not doing much original, but they are fun and still young so they will likely be good too. Shadowside singer Dani Nolden has an incredible voice like a cross between Rob Halford and Andi Deris of Helloween. She is probably the second best singer at this whole event next to John Bush of Armored Saint. Never heard Banshee and their CDs go for big money on eBay. I have always heard good things about them though. Not a bad line-up from what I know so I just hope enough fans are willing to push their way over to give these bands a chance because this is where the most up and coming bands are.

BV-The Gypsy Pistoleros are fantastic. They're the only remotely important band at the event. Even the handful of main stage bands that might be decent are reliving the past. The Pistoleros are the only band I've heard that presents any real future for this music. Dirty Penny isn't on par with the Pistoleros, but they aren't bad and they're enthusiastic. Shadowside, from the little I've heard, have the potential to put on a decent show. I have to say I'd make it a point to check out Texas Hippie Coalition and Gods of Kansas. Crazy names that don't seem to fit in with everything around them always arouse my interest. I'd also be curious to find out if Sweet FA is going to be a Sweet rip-off or some kind of glammed up Love and Rockets rip-off (I'd bet on the former). All in all, I'd say the only real possibility of seeing anything really interesting is on this stage.

***There are still four slots to be filled on the main stage. However we know most of the bands so the big question is what do you think of this year’s Rocklahoma line-up?

MM- My thoughts after last year was they needed more legitimate big name acts, more up and coming bands and less filler bands crowding the early hours of the day. Okay, they got Cinderella, Tesla and Armored Saint so already that’s more good bands than they had on last year’s line-up. Then bands like Jetboy and Tora Tora might be decent enough. There are a few decent bands on the second stage and some are up and coming bands however just about the whole Retrospect stage is not has-beens, but never weres. Other than Ron Keel and Mass it’s a bunch of bands that couldn’t break through at the peak of this kind of music. So that’s actually more pathetic than last year. Thinking back I would say Trixter and Kingdom Come are worse than anyone on last years Rocklahoma so the earlier bands are not that much better. My take on this festival is that it was a celebration of hard rock and not just hard rock of the past. I understand you need some big name bands to draw people, but there are so many up and coming hard rock bands that could use the exposure and I am sure them would explode at a show like this. Instead they spend their time and money bringing in a lot of old relics who suck in their guts, straighten their wigs and try to pretend it’s still the 1980’s. It’s a celebration of the past and it feels like they are giving up on hard rock having any kind of future. I have heard enough good CDs by young bands to tell you there is a future for this style. It’s just that the promoters of this event are not willing to gamble on unknowns so they track down a bunch of geezers and hope they hold up long enough to pull this train wreck off.

BV-Like most festivals, Rocklahoma wants to make money. But the better festivals are also a celebration of art and music and community.Rocklahoma isn't about any of these things. It's just about nostalgia and, as such, it can't be anything other than a money-making endeavor. It's kind of sad to see that tens of thousands of people are willing to travel to this thing because they have given up on music having a future. Rock n roll isn't dead, but Rocklahoma would make you think it is.

***That's going to wrap it up and I hope you enjoyed this as much as we did.Bob-Vinyl writes Rock and roll and Meandering nonsense.http://www.rnrnonsense.com/

43 Comments:

Anonymous said...

You guys both obviously do not like Glam/Hard Rock from the 80's. I guess it's your opnion...Everybody has one, but I do not agree with basically everything you say and will not be coming back to your site again.

Anon, I can only take stupidity in small doses, so Rocklahoma is clearly too much for me.

Actually, snide comments aside, I don't mind the past, but I don't want to live there. I love music and that's why I expect it to grow. If it's stagnant and rooted in nostalgia like Rocklahoma, it doesn't hold much interest for those of us who want music to do more than just provide a superficial soundtrack. Most 80s glam and hard rock represents rock n roll's lowest, most meaningless point.

If you hate Metal Mark's site, you should definitely avoid mine, because even the glam bands I like come with disclaimers about why I like them despite the genre.

Guys, great feature, I like the discussion. I differ on a few bands, let me give you my thoughts:

Thursday Night - Aside from Jetboy and House Of Lords, the rest of the bands don't inspire me. Bret Michaels headlining? Waste of time.

Friday - Probably would be my best day because I like Triumph, Night Ranger, Extreme and Armored Saint. Out of the four, the Saint is the only band that has done anything worthwhile since their heyday. The other bands are nostalgia acts but I grew up with Rock radio and MTV so it would be a nice trip down memory lane.

Saturday - Black 'n Blue, Kix, and Cinderella would be the draw for me even though they would offer nothing new. Again, nostalgia.

Sunday - Axe! I would like to see Axe live, they are underrated AOR/Rock but their lineup isn't the classic one. Tesla always puts on a good show and I like all of their albums except the acoustic one. I would hit the bathroom during 'Signs'.

Retrospect stage - Ron Keel & Paul Shortino should be the best here but I wouldn't mind seeing if Vyper & Mass can pull it off. Strikeforce and Mariah are good so they could be worth a listen.

3rd stage - I'd have to stop over for Gypsy Pistoleros and Lance King (former Gemini & Balance Of Power vocalist). The Pistoleros are what is good about Glam today and King has a great voice. I wouldn't mind seeing Shadowside and Banshee, I'd like to hear if the Banshee hype is real.

Overall, it's a trip down memory lane but there is some good music there. I'm not going to spend the money to go from Rhode Island, I would much rather hit ProgPower and/or the New England Metal/Hardcore Festival. Heck, for a few more dollars you could just go to Wacken! I'd love to go to Wacken.

Just stumbled across this page and thought I would leave a comment. Firstly the hype surrounding Gypsy Pistoleros is totally unnecessary. I think these guys are borderline suck and offer nothing spectacular to today's music scene. More of the same emo haircuts while plastering themselves with tattoos...it's really becoming a joke...Dirty Penny are a much better band. Main stage isn't great but I think the clinchers will be the TBA's that hopefully come in the form of Motley Crue , Sammy Hagar and whoever else. The Retrospect stage is actually the one I am most interested in seeing , after visiting their website and checking out bands like Defcon , Vyper , Reckless etc... it will be interesting to see what they bring to the table. After all , usually the best bands are the ones you never hear about...regardless of how they are spelled. So that's my rant - I am not going to go off on how the opinions here are jaded , ignorant and 80s-bashing but look guys , there's a lot of great music out now MOSTLY FROM EUROPE , and it's events like this that VALIDATE the greatest decade of rock n roll. The 90s blew ass and the 00's were only marginally better. Only a moron would think otherwise. Nostalgia? You're fucking right , and I'll take the past over the pasture any day of the week.

Steve-There's some good bands and some bad ones. I think the second stage idea has the potential to be good.

Anonymous #2-Not everyone is going to like Gypsy Pistoleros, but I am sure glad they have popped and given fans some hope that glam has a future. Dirty Penny are cool too, but nothing new. I don't know who the TBA's will be, but yeah I think the Crue are will likely be there. I liked Vyper in like 1985 and actually had demo tapes I bought from Defcon around 88-89, but I not sure how much these guys have in them now. You really need to read a whole post before you start name calling and bashing as I believe I did state that there were a lot of good hard rock bands coming out today. I love 80's music, but that doesn't mean I loved every band from that decade then and I don't love all the ones that are now well past their prime. Judging a band is a case by case basis just like we did in our post.

The producers said that this year was going to be bigger than last year. WHAT A LIE!!! Last year they had all of Poison, Quiet Riot, Twisted Sister, Warrant, Ratt, and other kind of big name bands. If they were going to brag about how much better it was going to be, the least they could've done was sign bigger names. Just an opinion.

Anon #2, 80s hard rock was actually the low point of rock n roll. Everything was superficial and dummied down. The rebellion was fake, the music was corporate and derivative and it was all about making money. I'm not a big Nirvana fan, but at least they ushered in something to take the place of bloated bands that were more about looks than music or art.

The 80s was the low point of rock n roll? Bob_Vinyl do you work for Rolling Stone? Because you sound about as informed and intelligent as someone who works for that joke of a rag. The 80s was the crescendo of rock n roll - bottom line. The best musicians emerged from the 80s , the best-written songs emerged from the 80s and quite frankly , if anything got DUMBED down , it was the corporate embarrassment of grunge. Let's make a hit single of a $5,000 recording!! Let's make 3 chord , shitty singing , shoe-gazing butt-rock popular!! Yeh that'll save the industry! You are wrong just like the corporate dildos were wrong in trying to make more money off less talent. The thing about the 80s - they had looks AND talent and were interested in giving us a show - unlike your butt-rock bands of the 90s who whined and bitched and complained about how famous they got. A fucking joke. Grunge killed rock n roll and thats why it's a fucking miracle if someone in the 90s and beyond sold even close to 5 million units. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody gets excited about depressing , angst-filled garbage perpetuated by flannel-wearing talentless punks. Facts are facts and the fact remains that the 80s were the glory days. Talent , looks , fun music , girls , over-the-top larger-than-life shows and excitement. Like I said before - re-live your past , not the pasture. The reason Rocklahoma IS THE LARGEST ROCK FESTIVAL IN AMERICA is because people want fun in their lives again - not a bunch of Shit-knot style bands telling them how shitty their life is at a punk-ass filled Ozzfest. Let's make this perfectly clear - Rocklahoma draws 100,000+ fans because of the PARTY and the FUN. Let's see any butt-rock festival of the 90s pull those numbers. It won't happen. Now try THINKING before making ridiculous posts again.

anonymous #3-It sounds like a lot of people share opinion about there not being as many big names this year.

Ray-Only we are much younger.

anonymous #4-I love 80's music and wasn't too big ons ome of the 90's music, but I can't agree with your rant about the 80's being some creative peak. Like any other decade there was good and there was bad. The hard rock bands, even the good ones were really cheesey. It's true, I am not making it up and I was, am and will continue to be a huge fan of many bands from that time. You complain about bands that write about negative and depressing topics yet you are the one who is practicly foaming at the mouth because someone doesn't share your opinion.

Anon #4, actually, a number of grunge and alt bands could play circles around most of your hard rock faves. Kim Thayil, McCready and Gossard, John Frusciante and Dave Navarro are better guitarists than all but maybe Van Halen and Vai from the hair/hard rock bands. The fact that they didn't fluff it up with a lot of runs up and down the fretboard and decided to actually play with some emotion isn't a lack of talent, but a trust in their songs. Don't even get me started about hair metal rhythm sections.

It's been said that rock is about "three chords and the truth." By and large, 80s hard rock hid their three chords behind some solos learned from a text book and hid from the truth, focusing instead on the party. It's really every bit as bad as disco became in the late 70s when it was just background music to people's descent into self-absorbed consumerism. It is, with few exceptions, music of little creativity and no substance. It was based in business, not human expression.

Bob_Vinyl , your post shows your ignorance and apathy of the most important decade in rock n roll. You are obviously not a musician and are absolutely clueless about talent. Guitarists like Jake E Lee , John Sykes , Adrian Vandenberg , Randy Rhoads , Marc Diglio , Vito Bratta , Nuno Bettencourt , Doug Aldrich , Reb Beach and a PLETHORA of others from the 80s absolutely destroy the faceless guitarists you touted who barely rate as a pimple on their asses. There are opinions and informed opinions , you really lack both. You should be ashamed of yourself. Through it all , the music of the 80s is TIMELESS as noted by the amount of songs used from that era in commercials and movie soundtracks. I have not heard one shitty Pearl Jam tune , STP tune or Soundgarden tune in one movie - EVER , and if they were in one , the movie was just as faceless as the artists appearing on it. The proof is in the pudding. Over 100,000 80s music metalheads show up in the middle of nowhere for the biggest rock festival in America. No butt-rock festivals from the 90s are happening now , why? Because nobody gave a shit about that music then and they certainly don't now. The 90s was the corporate embarassment in the annals of music history. Fact. The talent in the 90s was sub-par to the 70s and 80s - FACT. There were more one-hit wonders in the 90s than any other decade - FACT. So wake up dude , your authority in music is just as much dumbed down as the music you worship and thats why the music of the 90s was a waste of space and at the bottom of cut-out bins all over the country. Here's one more FACT you can chew on. 80s bands like Hurricane , Lion , Badlands and the like are still highly collectible sellers on ebay while all your garbage alt-grunge bands can't be sold for a penny on Amazon. Accept it and move on - the 80s are alive and well and they have come back to kick your ass.

Actually, the early 90s was one of the few times that art dictated to business. Sure, the majors were signing every clone they could find by 93 or 94, but that first wave of signings were largely bands with a DIY ethic that they were able to commit to and sell records. The hair metal explosion of the 80s was the real cave in to business. Everything seemed outrageous, but nothing really was. It was one big fake rebellion. It was kinda like smoking cigarettes to rebel against your parents when you were actually enslaving yourself to a huge corporate machine. Hair metal liked to to have the image of being wild and rebellious, but there wasn't much difference between those bands and people who wore suits everyday. It was all just about the money.

Actually, I do play guitar, bass and drums, but that doesn't really have much to do with the ability to recognize what's good and what's not. As a rock fan, record collector and music lover in general, I've heard a lot of music from a lot of eras played in a lot of styles. I know that anyone can take lessons to learn how to play fast and just be a technician. I also know that no amount of lessons can teach someone to be creative and to convey emotion. That's where talent really comes in. I might give you Randy Rhoads as an oversight on my part, but those other guys are just going through the motions. Sure they can play fast, but it doesn't change the fact that it's just a formula and that formula is exactly what the major labels like.

I think it's funny that you would like to portray me as ignorant when you have a very narrow interest. It's not like I'm stuck in the 90s. My point isn't that Pearl Jam or Soundgarden are the be all, end all of music. They're done too. I can go back and listen to them just the same as I can a few of the better 80s glam bands, but I don't want to hear that stuff rehashed over and over either.

As far as music being used in commercials, I've actually heard more punk and new wave used lately. The Clash, Blondie and the Buzzcocks have all turned up in ads lately. It's always sad to see something I love be used to sell crap, but it happens. I'm sure the deluge of hair metal commercials is on its way though, because that generation (sadly my generation) is reaching its consumer peak. Guess what will follow that? You got it, grunge in commercials. That's the way advertising works. When the demographic is a particular generation, they use the music of their youth against them. It doesn't make the music good or bad.

As far as the collectibility of records and CDs goes, there is a lot of stuff that takes off at different times. Sure, some of the more obscure hair metal titles go for high prices, but there are a lot of punk, psych, alt and yes grunge records that do as well. Obviously, a copy of a Pearl Jam CD isn't going to have a high price tag, because they sold millions of copies. Any copy of an album that's still in print isnt going to sell much unless there is something about the particular pressing that makes it collectible. A lot of the Sub Pop Singles Club 7 inches go for plenty. They were limited edition and many came out before the bands broke. It's like an original copy of Too Fast For Love or the original Appetite for Destruction cover. They're rare, so they're pricey. You really only need two people who really want something to drive the price up. Small numbers of an item account for collectibility more than large numbers who want it. Old psych records by totally unknown bands sell for hundreds on ebay because a small group of people compete for the small numbers of existing records.

I will agree that it was odd for Kurt Cobain to sign the big contract and then spend the rest of his short life belly-aching about his fame, but for every Cobain, there were a slew of Pearl Jams and REMs who were successful on their own terms and didn't have to feel compromised by the money. The reason most hair metal bands didn't complain about the money and fame is because it was, more than the music, their ultimate goal. They were businessmen, not artists for the most part.

Every decade and genre has its share of one and two hit wonders (and oddly its fair share of greatest hits albums by these bands as well). The 90s were no more or less susceptible to this phenomenon. In addition, they all have their no hit wonders as well when the majors are more afraid of missing the next big band than of signed stinkers. Hair metal, due to the excessive mentality of the 80s, was probably more succeptible to this that most genres.

Anon, I think you might want to reconsider what you call fact. I'm a big proponent of the idea that you can't hide everything behind opinion, but you also can't just wave a magic wand and pronounce it fact. Your lack of a broad context doesn't help your argument. You do try to make a few points, but you're so blinded by your love of the genre and your hair metal vs grunge mentality, that you're only able to make your prejudice clear.

anonymous-You said-"Here's one more FACT you can chew on. 80s bands like Hurricane , Lion , Badlands and the like are still highly collectible sellers on ebay while all your garbage alt-grunge bands can't be sold for a penny on Amazon."Uh, because the CDs by the bands you mentioned are out of print (Hurricane's has just gotten a re-issue though) so they sell for more because they are rare.

"Because nobody gave a shit about that music then and they certainly don't now"Hmmm, if no one cared about it then how did it manage to smack most of the hair bands off of the major labels in the early 1990's?

"The 90s was the corporate embarassment in the annals of music history. Fact."According to who?

"The talent in the 90s was sub-par to the 70s and 80s - FACT."That's called an opinion. You sound like you listen to music with a score sheet and deduct points for lack of solo made up of playing scales very quickly.

"There were more one-hit wonders in the 90s than any other decade - FACT."Really? You have figures on that?

I loved the 1980's and I still love hard rock and metal, but I don't fly into a frenzy just because someone has a different opinion on music or even or even if they attack the music I like.

It sounds like you blew a gasket when the grunge scene popped up and you still have not come to terms with it.

"The hair metal explosion of the 80s was the real cave in to business."

Absolutely wrong. The cave in was the record companies "cash-cow" of signing "low-rent" grunge acts where they record them cheap and sell them to the public as the "new thing". Low over-head and high returns. Only a moron couldn't see this as being the case.

"Everything seemed outrageous, but nothing really was."

Massive arena shows , tons of drugs and girls , larger-than-life clothes and hair - it WAS outrageous. You had to be there to appreciate it - obviously you weren't.

"Hair metal liked to to have the image of being wild and rebellious, but there wasn't much difference between those bands and people who wore suits everyday."

Dude , have you not seen the "image" of the bands from 1992-present?? I can't tell if a guy is in a band or my next door fucking neighbor!! Yeh - real good image there. LOSERS.

"It was all just about the money."

Music has ALWAYS been about money. From Elvis and the Beatles to Michael Jackson and Chris Daughtry - don't kid yourself , it's ALWAYS been about money.

"Actually, I do play guitar, bass and drums, but that doesn't really have much to do with the ability to recognize what's good and what's not."

It has EVERYTHING to do with recognizing talent. By your jaded opinions , you must not be a very good musician - THAT is obvious. My credentials are rock solid...

"As a rock fan, record collector and music lover in general, I've heard a lot of music from a lot of eras played in a lot of styles. I know that anyone can take lessons to learn how to play fast and just be a technician."

Wrong again - it takes a very dedicated and learned player to attain those skills. And for the music industry to glorify mediocre musicians (i.e. GRUNGE / ALT) is a disgrace to players like myself who spent many years being the best we could be.

"I also know that no amount of lessons can teach someone to be creative and to convey emotion."

Subjective.

" That's where talent really comes in. I might give you Randy Rhoads as an oversight on my part, but those other guys are just going through the motions."

HAHAHA - ok , whatever dude. Clueless!

" Sure they can play fast, but it doesn't change the fact that it's just a formula and that formula is exactly what the major labels like."

It's what MUSIC FANS like.

"I think it's funny that you would like to portray me as ignorant when you have a very narrow interest. It's not like I'm stuck in the 90s. My point isn't that Pearl Jam or Soundgarden are the be all, end all of music. They're done too. I can go back and listen to them just the same as I can a few of the better 80s glam bands, but I don't want to hear that stuff rehashed over and over either."

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I have a collection of over 12,000 cd's and you call me narrow-minded. HAHA.

"As far as music being used in commercials, I've actually heard more punk and new wave used lately. The Clash, Blondie and the Buzzcocks have all turned up in ads lately. It's always sad to see something I love be used to sell crap, but it happens."

If you think bands like the Clash or the Buzzcocks / Misfits had any fucking talent at all , then the last shred of your credibility just went right out the window.

"I'm sure the deluge of hair metal commercials is on its way though, because that generation (sadly my generation) is reaching its consumer peak. Guess what will follow that? You got it, grunge in commercials. That's the way advertising works. When the demographic is a particular generation, they use the music of their youth against them. It doesn't make the music good or bad."

I'll bet you $500 you won't one fucking grunge song in a commercial with the EXCEPTION of Smells like Teen shit.

"As far as the collectibility of records and CDs goes, there is a lot of stuff that takes off at different times. Sure, some of the more obscure hair metal titles go for high prices, but there are a lot of punk, psych, alt and yes grunge records that do as well."

Hair Metal far outsells any other genre and goes for higher prices. Do your research.

"Obviously, a copy of a Pearl Jam CD isn't going to have a high price tag, because they sold millions of copies."

As did many Hair Metal albums. Your point?

"The reason most hair metal bands didn't complain about the money and fame is because it was, more than the music, their ultimate goal. They were businessmen, not artists for the most part."

If you think the musicians from the 80s were more business than art then you have serious issues...

"Anon, I think you might want to reconsider what you call fact. I'm a big proponent of the idea that you can't hide everything behind opinion, but you also can't just wave a magic wand and pronounce it fact. Your lack of a broad context doesn't help your argument. You do try to make a few points, but you're so blinded by your love of the genre and your hair metal vs grunge mentality, that you're only able to make your prejudice clear."

My prejudice against closed-minded talentless idiots like you is perfectly clear yes. For 15 years I have heard fuck-wits proclaim the death of hair metal and the advent of more talented music. It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. Now I can gloat at the FACT that Rocklahoma is the largest ROCK festival on American soil because it's a massive slap in the face of hair metal-haters who thought that music would be forgotten. Well , like I said , Hair Metal never died , it was just waiting for an opportunity to kick the shit out of numbnut critics who cry like little babies when 100,000+ metalheads rear their ugly heads. Metal isn't just a music dude , it's a lifestyle - it will not go away , and it revels in the fact that it is still kicking the asses of people who tried their damndest to bring it down. So keep trying.

"Uh, because the CDs by the bands you mentioned are out of print (Hurricane's has just gotten a re-issue though) so they sell for more because they are rare."

They sell for more because people WANT it.

"Hmmm, if no one cared about it then how did it manage to smack most of the hair bands off of the major labels in the early 1990's?"

Firstly , it knocked ALL metal off the majors in the early 90s. Thats right , Thrash bands like Testament , Hair Metal , AOR bands...etc. And if you read what I wrote , the corporates made it perfectly clear that they could record a grunge album for $10,000 and still sell it to the masses like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. It was brainwashing at its worst.

"According to who?"

According to me and millions like me.

"That's called an opinion. You sound like you listen to music with a score sheet and deduct points for lack of solo made up of playing scales very quickly."

It's called an INFORMED opinion and certainly comes close to FACT. If you think mainstream music in the 90s was even half as good as the 70s and 80s then it's very clear why your piddly-ass blog site gets 10 hits a day. FACT.

"There were more one-hit wonders in the 90s than any other decade - FACT."Really? You have figures on that?"

Yes I do.

"I loved the 1980's and I still love hard rock and metal, but I don't fly into a frenzy just because someone has a different opinion on music or even or even if they attack the music I like."

You're not a musician and you didn't go through it AS a musician. Therefore you are clueless what the whole time was about.

"It sounds like you blew a gasket when the grunge scene popped up and you still have not come to terms with it."

Oh I am fine with it. I own one of the largest independent labels in the world. The grunge scene was totally unnecessary. It was a fucking joke. It killed rock n roll and only a fool would recognize the fact that R n R has not been the same since.

-I doubt it's millions because most people are more reasonable than that.

"You're not a musician and you didn't go through it AS a musician. Therefore you are clueless what the whole time was about."

-I have played bass for twenty years, but I am not a musician I am a fan. I realize hard rock/metal musicians from that time often lost not just their careers, but homes and things like that as well. However, You are trying so hard to discredit the opinion of others just because you don't agree with them. Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter what their background. Yet you want for your opinion to mean more because of certain criteria you think you meet and others lack.

"It's called an INFORMED opinion and certainly comes close to FACT. If you think mainstream music in the 90s was even half as good as the 70s and 80s then it's very clear why your piddly-ass blog site gets 10 hits a day. FACT."

-There are not degrees to opinions. I said repeatedly that I love 80's music that's why I have been writing this blog and writing reviews and interviews for other sites. It is only my opinion that the 80's music was better than the 90's not fact. I know how many hits my site gets and I am satisfied with it and it's certainly more than ten. By the way you used that same cute comment over at Bring Back Glam so your originality is fading. I must not be to piddly-ass if the head of a label feels the need to try and attack me at two different blogs.

"Oh I am fine with it. I own one of the largest independent labels in the world. The grunge scene was totally unnecessary. It was a fucking joke. It killed rock n roll and only a fool would recognize the fact that R n R has not been the same since."

-You own Retrospect and I own a number of CDs by them and have interviewed a few bands from that label. I respect your label, but I can't agree with a rant where you words misuse words like FACT and try to beat down other's opinions just because you cannot accept them. Music from the 90's like grunge was still rock and rock was never killed just altered. Metal was still going in the 1990's just more in an underground way. Someone must of thought grunge was necessary because people listened to it. I have had people who were teens in the 1990's come on here and tell me how metal sucks and that grunge saved rock so there are different views on these genres of music. I got into metal and hard rock around 83-84 and have stuck with it since then. I stuck with it in the 1990's and I am still with it, listening to ti and promoting it. I wasn't big on grunge, but I don't try to discredit it and what happened just because I didn't like it.

anonymous (the Banshee fan)-I have never heard Banshee largely because their CDs go for more than I can afford at eBay. Everything I have ever heard about them has been positive though. It would be cool if this lead to their CDs beling re-released though.

Call it what you want Bob_Vinyl - I have accomplished more in 3 years in this business than you have in 30. 240 releases and dominating the 80s market. You finally said something right "your work is done" - it certainly is , but my work is far from done , I'm just getting started , and hosting a stage at the largest rock festival in the U.S. is a massive victory for my bands and the greatest decade of rock n roll. For a bunch of has-beens and never-were's how the hell am I still in business after 240 releases? Because I am failing? Because the cd's aren't selling? HAHA , dude 100,000 people aren't wrong. You are. Have a nice day.

And you're like a bad smell that just won't go away. Or even worse , someone who THINKS they know something about music and wouldn't know talent if it was shoved up yer ass , just like the clowns at Rolling Stone. But then again , that's why you are , have been , and always be a nobody in the industry. Leave it to the pros dude.

Or do you mean the pros who can't get out of the past so they sell nostalgia and pretend it matters?

I do appreciate you taking time from your important re-issue duties to set us amateurs straight. I just hope some crappy hair metal band isn't missing the opportunity at glory with Hasbeen/Neverwere Records while you educate us.

Gosh, Bob you have tried so hard to break into the "industry". We are just fans with no aspirations of being more than that. We write blogs because we like music, that's it. The opinions of fans do matter because we are the one do or don't buy the albums. Now if you will excuse me I have a site meter to check. It says 12..13..14..and counting!

I'm not on here to knock any of these bands. It is what it is, as a matter of fact I like music period. You pick and choose what you can & can't stand. But Friday & Saturday seem to be the best days for this party. Honestly though you think the promoters would've put more thought into this for the side stages with some newer bands. If it was a glam thing, they could've went with the Swedish scene: Crash Diet, Danger, Debbie Ray, and Vains of Jenna. From a rock standpoint they could've went with these younger bands like EndeverafteR, Light of Doom, and Crooked X. As for KIX being a part of Rocklahoma, they're definitely a good live band for this show. I've seen these guys blow away more bands on a Stadium level with just a club show. Definitely too much filler for a four day event.

Regarding Bob-Vinyl's comments concerning Rocklahoma, I wholeheartedly disagree and so do fans who are buying product and tickets in droves.

Yes, the music was "mindless" party music, but I'll take that ANYDAY over the whiny bullshit of John Mellencamp or (insert uber-leftist asshole(s) here) who piss and moan about how evil America is, yet refuse to back up their crap by leaving and living in Venezuela.

I was a fan of the music coming out in the 90's, however I was into the MUSIC much more than the "woe is me, I'm gonna kill myself" blather coming out of pretty much every band under the "Alternative" genre.

But hey, that's what I love about music - regardless of the genre (I happen to like pretty much everything in one way or another we may agree to disagree with each other's opinions, we still LOVE THE MUSIC, which is what it's all about.

I'm a huge fan of the site and will continue to visit on a daily basis, as the content is for the most part far more professional and informative than most blogs of a similar vibe.

Keep up the great work and just a suggestion to those slagging off on either MM, Bob-Vinyl or the site itself? Nothing wrong with disagreeing, but howz about either putting your NAME to your post - are all of you that pussiferous? - or just shut the fuck up.

AFter reading all this malarkey and arguing between Sam McCaslin and Metal Mark, i have to add - when i founded Retrospect Records in my former basement in Webster, massachusetts, I had no idea it would become such a big argument when I sold it to Sam.

I always held a belief that fans of any music genre would respond to artists who were promoted in a positive light and offered to fans at a reasonable and fair price and that paying the artists for their efforts, current or past was a noble and honest way to run a business.

Boy, it seems to have been fucked up pretty good.

With that in mind, I am now living in soCal and will begin the construction phase of a NEW record label that will offer the same stong and fair business values that which i started Retrospect with in 1998 and regrettable sold off to Sam.

Keep an eye out friends and if you have any thought of getting your music made for you and made available for fans - email me at joedolan@gmail.com - Ill get in touch

"So, in closing, fuck you METAL MARK. Fuck you, fuck Lynch Mob, and fuck your shitty website!”
“I don't know who this METAL MARK is, but I know better than to waste my time checking out anything else written by this asshole”
-Mike