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Can I just say that you have excellent taste in games, CL, and I deeply identify with your ability to totally immerse yourself in something and still want more.

On the topic of pacing, I've actually personally experienced 3 people who were unfamiliar enough with JRPG conventions that they were taken completely off guard by the false ending at the tower of salvation? Like, completely thought they were saving the world, never suspected Kratos of anything, forgot there was another disk: just completely sold on it.

So perception can be a funny thing... Like, thinking back to my first time playing it, I saw the "twist" coming a mile away, but I think I was completely absorbed in the story anyway. Could guess more or less what was coming, but the game was fun to play in general and the drama was enough to kept me completely invested in the ride.
Playing it again now, that segment of the story drags a little but at least for me it's just because I know it already.

But for those people who DIDN'T see it coming... For all 3 of them it was one of the most well written and mindblowing plot twists of all time.

In an odd way, don't those different perspectives kind of mirror the way legends are handled thematicaly?

^that's a cool perspective, thanks for bringing that to the table, Crav. I guess I'm in a weird place of being really familiar with JRPG tropes while also having lost some of my patience/feeling for JRPG pacing.

And having played the rest of the game, I do want to retract a little bit of what I said in my other post. Without that first portion of the game, deconstructing the legend of Mithos becomes less interesting. That first part is really important for establishing a status quo that is entirely enjoyable to rip apart as the game progresses.

(Maybe still a bit too much time until that big reveal, but hey. I got over it.)

That's fair. I think you get now why I was so defensive about your comments, but hey, it doesn't change the fact that you honestly felt that way while playing the game.

Not sure how the pacing could be changed to get to the reveal sooner without significantly altering the structure of the worlds though (bc cutting it down a seal for instance would mean removing a summon spirit essentially). I do think they probably could have done more to tie in the lore of the water and fire seals to make them more interesting, like they did with the wind seal and Cleo III, and the light seal with Boltzmann's healing technique.

It's also fair to acknowledge that playing through the game again is a different perspective on it's own.
Like, ML, even though you forgot a lot of the game I'm sure you never forgot there was a second world and at least a vague sense of what was waiting for you at the tower. So that changes the mindset you go through the game with too. Maaaaybe in the back of your mind thinking "when do I get to the good stuff?" where the plot suddenly happens.

Ya know, I'm actually a little jealous of people that can actually forget the details of stuff they enjoyed?
There are games I last played probably like 2 decades ago that I could still write a walk through for.

[QUOTE="Cravdraa, post: 1610315, member: 21510"]Ya know, I'm actually a little jealous of people that can actually forget the details of stuff they enjoyed?
There are games I last played probably like 2 decades ago that I could still write a walk through for.[/QUOTE]

That's a crazy memory. If I only played a game once a long time ago, and it is lengthy, I generally forget a lot of the details.

^^ You know, I definitely used to feel that way, and wish I could experience a game for the first time again... but now I actually really like having encyclopedic knowledge of them. Because I can go back and re-play them and notice everything that is hidden there. EVERYTHING.

I'd take being able to forget the choices I made in any game that has them. I get too attached to whatever I did if I liked the game, so then playing differently feels like betraying all that and I end up doing further playthroughs that are barely different from the first one. I'd probably make those same decisions again if I forgot them all, but at least I wouldn't know I did it again. >_>

It's time, folks. The long-awaited, much-anticipated sequel.... APOLLO THE JUST PRESENTS............

TREATISE 2: On Life and Lifeless Beings

Okie doke then, let's get right to it shall we.

There is a particular term this game coins in reference to something which is technically alive, or that displays traits of being alive, but does not live in the same sense that humans/elves/other "living" beings do. This term is "lifeless being." What are lifeless beings, what does their existence look like, what makes them lifeless and what makes them beings? First we have to talk a bit about **** exspheres; simultaneously a topic which is explored more than any other over the course of the game, and which still leaves us with so many open questions.

**** exspheres are weird magic plot stones that occur in some sort of abundance in the world(s) of Tales of Symphonia. They are parasitic in nature in that if a human (or presumably any living being, but this is unconfirmed) comes into contact with one, it leeches their mana - AKA - magic fantasy life force, awakening the exsphere and transforming it into a supercharged-mega-OP magic plot stone. The mana suctioning simultaneously **** with the human host in numerous ways on account of it is literally eating their essence. The ****-with-human-hosts thing is a huge plot point, but for now what's important is that exspheres must leech mana to become active/stronk/useful, but also are Bad News^TM when physically contacted.

So dwarves invented a way to equip a charged exsphere to make use of its magic plot stone properties without the bad side effects of turning into monsters/dying. (Side tangent: it's never stated in the games, but since we know that exspheres are mined from the earth, that Dwarves are employed by Cruxis, and that key crests are Dwarven technology, I think it's safe to say that pretty much everything about the modern use of exspheres was probably kickstarted in ancient times by the Dwarves..... which is interesting fake-historical food for thought, to say the least). They carve charms out of Inhibitor Ore - special plot stuff mined from the same location as Exspheres, at least to the extent we know, meaning the two occur naturally together - which has anti-being-devoured-by-exsphere properties, allowing the user to equip the exsphere and not get all hecked up by it.

I bring up all this background for two reasons. Firstly, because I need something to do with my encyclopedic knowledge of this video game. Secondly; because it's necessary background to understand Cruxis Crystals, which are THE plot central element in the discussion of "lifeless beings."

A cruxis crystal is the result of douchebag scientists putting an exsphere on a host body along with a special evil science key crest WHICH IS DIFFERENT FROM A NORMAL KEY CREST and has properties that merely slow the parasitic process rather than halting it entirely. The host (predictably) gets **** up, but if they survive long enough with this exsphere slowly eating their soul over the course of years, the exsphere evolves into a DELUXE super mega OP magic plot stone: a Cruxis Crystal.

(Brief break down: If an exsphere is placed on you,

(If you have no protection) you get hella messed up, the exsphere eats your soul, when it's removed you turn into a monster, probably die, and then someone else gets to use your magic life energy stone. Thanks for the sacrifice, sucker!

(If you have a key crest) you get no bad side effects and can just wreck fools with the energy stored from some other loser! The game does not address what happens if you equip a dormant exsphere, but I imagine it either does nothing, or maybe awakens over a long period of time without **** up the user.

(If you have an evil science crest) you get HELLA messed up. The exsphere eats your soul over many years, allowing it to evolve into something far more powerful and schweet than the normal process produces. Your life energy gets absorbed into this radtastic Cruxis Crystal. On the downside, the process slowly eats at you and gradually turns you into a shell of your former self, until you either turn into a monster or get fully devoured and perish.

)

So. Now we've thoroughly established their origins. Let's talk....... about Cruxis Crystals.

Someone who equips a Cruxis Crystal with a Key Crest gets all the benefits and none of the drawbacks (as a Cruxis Crystal is the same thing as an Exsphere, just having undergone a special process to UNLEASH ITS FULL POTENTIAL).

EVERYONE known to equip a Cruxis Crystal in Tales of Symphonia verifiably gains the following:

Sick glowy angel wings

SUPER MEGA ENHANCED FIGHTING ABILITIES

But what makes them fascinating is the following observed traits:

The user stops aging. Kratos and Yuan have both lived 4,000+ years, retaining the same physical appearance they had when they were heroes literal millennia ago. They should have died forever ago.

The user gains the ability to control their appearance. Mithos uses this to age-up his eternally pubescent body into an adult form to lead Cruxis; it is also possible that fake-Killia uses this to mimic Killia's form and produce her demonic battle form (but that could also just be dark magic rule of cool BS).

The user is able to live independently of their body in the cruxis crystal. Again, we witness this in Mithos specifically; after he is defeated the first time, he continues to exist within the crystal and retains his sense of self.

It becomes clear by the end of the game that, at some point/by some processes, Cruxis Crystal users cease to live in their bodies and instead live in the gems they wield. They're effectively gem consciousnesses possessing their own flesh vessels. And THIS is what the game means by "lifeless being."

(Sorry Madoka, TALES OF SYMPHONIA DID IT FIRST.)

Or at least, something to that effect. No one except Mithos is known to be able to possess other bodies from his gem-consciousness; for the most part we just observe people getting superpowers from and/or getting devoured by the exspheres. It's my interpretation that properly developed and equipped Cruxis Crystals have a certain property that allow for the user to willingly have their mana/life-force transferred into the Cruxis Crystal, but rather than turning into an empty shell of a human (the way hosts with douche science crests do) they retain the semblance of life because their consciousness is merely shifted into the crystal rather than consumed by it. It's not clear whether this process is voluntary or not, but I am led to believe that it is - makes sense for it to be a willpower thing as that would explain why Mister Obsessive Mithos Yggdrasill was the only one to push the process far enough that his consciousness overpowered someone else's from within the gem.

"Lifeless beings" describes the entities that reside within Exspheres and Cruxis Crystals. They require a body to interact with the world in any meaningful way, but do possess consciousness. They have memories and thoughts and emotions, but the bodies they use to exhibit these do not age because body and soul are not linked in the way they are for "living" beings. The traditional link between mind and body is severely warped.

(Brief aside: I'm pretty sure Buddhist!Japan generally places a much greater emphasis on the connection between mind and body than Western cultures do. That's not to say we can't still get squicked out by the thought of being a brain stone remotely piloting a meat puppet; but many Western religions, cultures, and philosophies value the mind/spirit over the body/material as opposed to valuing a unified connection between them. So this is probs a more palpable thing in Japan.)

So................... what?

I'LL TELL YOU WHAT!!!

Y'ALL MAY OR MAY NOT REMEMBER THAT THE ENTIRE PLOT OF TALES OF SYMPHONIA IS ABOUT SOME CHICK NAMED MARTEL WHO WENT AND DUN GOT HERSELF MURDEREDED AND THEN HER PSYCHO BROTHER WENT **** AND PRESERVED HER SOUL FOR A VERITABLE ETERNITY IN AN ATTEMPT TO FIND A VESSEL TO TRANSFER THE SOUL SO SHE COULD "LIVE" AGAIN ???????????/?//////

This whole premise of this damn glorious video game gets way more interesting when you think about the fact that Mithos is already living the exact existence he is attempting to claim for his sister.

Martel has died. Because of fantasy plot magic, she still has a soul; but her body is gone because it was murdered. There is NO way to restore Martel to a normal state of life. "Resurrecting Martel" in the sense of "bringing the dead back to life" is impossible .....but if she has a mind and a body, she can get something close, right? So Mithos effectively re-defines for himself what it means to live in order to make his goal attainable. His goal is to resurrect Martel....... the best he can hope for is to return her consciousness to a body. So he completely disregards the connection between body and soul as a necessary aspect of life and settles for body + soul coexisting as good enough. He cares so much more about his sister than anything else that this literally becomes his new definition of an ideal self, and he actually transforms himself into it. A lot can be said about Mithos Yggdrasill but DAMN y'all, this boy puts his money where his damn mouth is. There are no double standards between himself and his sister; if that is what life will be for her then it's what life should be for EVERYBODY.

(There's also the added bonus of "if everyone is a gem piloting a meat bag and changing their appearances at will racism will be over! Martel's last wish = GRANTED" which Mithos, like, genuinely believes to be a solution for inequality. The game already makes this part evident, so I don't need to go into it, but.... it's kind of heartbreaking how juvenile that is, and it really drives home the point that this guy's been alive for thousands of years but he hasn't matured a day past 14.)

To conclude.......... exspheres and cruxis crystals are one of the most fascinating, tragically-undeveloped-in-the-sequel aspects of worldbuilding in this video game. They're the mechanism by which Symphonia explores the connection between body and soul and concludes that "life" is defined by the nature of that connection. What's interesting to me is that not just the villains use these - pretty much all of the main characters do too - but the protagonists are those who have not (yet? depends on whether it's voluntary or not, which I still maintain it is) lost their "natural" connection between body and spirit, and the villains/antiheroes, the leaders of Cruxis, are those who did sever this connection.

((Also notable: the severed nature of the two worlds is most definitely intentionally paralleling this. The unified world being a "true" or "ideal" state, and it having been ripped into two separate entities that constantly vie for control..... mmmmmmmm. What a delicious, delicious parallel.))

Lots of stuff I had never considered in there. I guess I never really sat and thought about what the true meaning of "lifeless being" was in the game. I had always assumed that being a "lifeless being" was more akin to losing all feeling and emotion; sacrificing humanity to gain immortality. Is that also an aspect of it, in addition to the mind/body connection?

[QUOTE="Marilink, post: 1639907, member: 23215"]Lots of stuff I had never considered in there. I guess I never really sat and thought about what the true meaning of "lifeless being" was in the game. I had always assumed that being a "lifeless being" was more akin to losing all feeling and emotion; sacrificing humanity to gain immortality. Is that also an aspect of it, in addition to the mind/body connection?[/QUOTE]

You know I'm not quite sure. Because the only people who really lose aspects of their humanity aren't necessarily those who equip and use Cruxis Crystals; just those who are host bodies for the cruxis crystal evolution. Colette and Presea are the only examples of people who are literally no longer their former selves when using the crystals (oh, as well as the creepy angels in Welgaia) and at least for them we know it's because of the parasitic process of creating one. Whereas Mithos, Kratos, Yuan, Zelos.... they're all still them. So I think the more extreme losses, like those of emotions and soul etc, are a result of being a victim of the parasitic process?

That said there are definitely aspects of "losing humanity" to it, especially since it's established that Kratos can't sleep, just like Colette can't. What's interesting to me is that in Colette's case most of the dehumanizing side-effects are reversible with the key crest, which is part of why I think it's possible to voluntarily re-undergo the process but with agency. So I think you're on to something.

DP: what's interesting too is the game actually refers to the exspheres and cruxis crystals themselves as "lifeless beings." Not necessarily even the souls inside them. So I suppose a lifeless being would be whatever entity - willingly or unwillingly - resides within that exsphere. I'm surmising that the difference beteeen zombie Colette and not zombie Mithos is that Colette's soul was devoured by the crystal because she didn't have a key crest preventing such, whereas Mithos's soul was just kind of transferred over and became the crystal because he DID have a key crest.

I guess that means all the angels in Welgaia were probably host bodies for the crystals bc they clearly suffered the parasitic effects. They're all "lifeless beings" by the game's definition but some of them present something a LOT closer to "life" than others do.

Hi guys I wrote another essay on ToS. This one is less analytical but essential to understanding why some of the character endings in this game are straight up just better than others, although ALL of them are great for getting to know each character's motivations and backstory better.

I present: THE OFFICIAL TALES OF SYMPHONIA ENDINGS OBJECTIVELY CORRECT TIER LIST

Kratos's ending is essentially Lloyd's ending as well. He is the link between the current party of heroes and the party of failed heroes from 4,000 years ago. His route really drives home the key similarities and differences between Mithos and Lloyd from the perspective of someone who, to different extents, kind of fatherly-mentored both of them. (Moreso Mithos than Lloyd, ironically.) Having him at Lloyd's side during the final confrontation against Mithos is so, SO much more meaningful than almost anyone else. ...Also, his route overall is just a total emotional rollercoaster.

Genis's ending is *THE BEST* at fleshing out Mithos Yggdrasill as a villain and driving home the game's commentary on racial discrimination. Genis and Lloyd's friendship is incredibly sweet and pure and endearing, and simultaneously Genis and Mithos's dynamic is very tragic; this ending successfully emphasizes both. You see Genis relate to Mithos's ideals, but also push back against them because he has the support system to put him on the right path. Genis is the party member who has been there since the very beginning and one of the people who is most personally invested in the final battle with the villain. Like Kratos's ending, this one is really good at looking into the parallels between the current party and the one from 4,000 years ago. ...and of course, it's just really adorable, because Lloyd is so big-brother protective of his young friend.

A Tier: Zelos, Colette

Zelos's ending doesn't quite make S Tier for me because unlike Kratos and Genis he's too much of an outsider to really effectively connect the two "opposing" forces, which is what sets those routes apart for me. It's STILL an incredible ending and well worth the effort of going for, especially since it complicates the racism narrative by presenting the lived experiences of a sympathetic character who contributes to the oppressor's ideology, rather than all of them just being evil bad guys like the Pope. Zelos is an incredibly complex and nuanced character and his ending reflects that about him. Also, it's the only one that actually impacts how things play out at Altessa's, which is hugely notable.

Colette's ending is the "standard" ending for a reason. It is the intended experience for a first-time player that communicates its essential messages about the value of one's life and what it means to live and to be human. Her route is also the closest thing the player gets to understanding what Martel, possibly THE most central figure in the game, was like. Colette's ending is often underrated because the game almost forces it on you, but that's because it's a good and natural flow for the story.

B Tier: Presea

Presea's ending gives ESSENTIAL insight as to the experiences of someone who underwent the Angelus Project, which is a *major* plot point. The other victims we know of - Anna and Alicia - are both dead. So her ending is just good because it hammers in from a personal perspective what all of the thousands and thousands of cruxis crystals you encounter in the world *cost.* The only reason this misses A Tier is because Presea and Lloyd don't have a compelling enough dynamic over the course of the game to really sell it (the way Lloyd & Colette, and Lloyd & Zelos, do).

C Tier: Sheena, Raine

Both of these endings are solid and have slightly different focuses that highlight slightly different things about the story (and develop each respective character really well), and I love both of them. They miss B Tier because they're more specialized toward understanding each character better and less essential to communicating the game's most important points IMO.

Sheena's gives more depth to the similarities between Lloyd and Sheena as people who are respectively outsiders that unintentionally brought ruin to their villages. It's a good and quite meaningful dynamic.

Raine's, like Genis's, adds emotional depth to the racism commentary in addition to developing her individual character. It's a really good route, just not as essential as Genis's because the parallels are nowhere near as strong and the bond between her and Lloyd is less grounded.

D Tier: Regal

Regal I'm sorry, I love you, you're the awkward dad of the party and it's hilarious, but it really pushes suspension of disbelief to imagine that Lloyd somehow is closer to you than to his childhood friends, peers, and family, and you getting kidnapped is just... a lot less impactful. Still a good ending that gives good character moments though

Sheena is probably my favorite character and thus the one who's ending I generally go for, (Think I've gotten all the characters' endings at least once.)

That said, I can't really disagree with any of this. When it comes to relevance to the plot and how well the characters tie into it, this is pretty much spot on.

As a VERY late side note to the earlier topic on lifeless beings that I missed, I just wanted to say that I always interrupted "lifeless beings" as basically just being inorganic life forms. They're not alive in a traditional sense. Their bodies can move, but they don't actually function in a traditional way. In advanced cases it seems like the body may actually be closer to a hologram.
We're told that Exspheres themselves have a will and even emotions within them even before they're mined. They're just a type of crystal. They aren't alive. and yet they have a consciousness within them. They are quite literally beings that are lifeless.
Tabitha seems to be some sort of robot and she directly compares herself to them, saying they're both lifeless beings.

I'll also add that when you beat him the final time, even Mithos makes it sound like he's losing himself. It seems that living inside the crystal alone WILL cause a person's consciousness to fade. even fairly rapidly. This is possibly because without a body he has nowhere to actually wear a keycrest to prevent it from happening.

As a VERY late side note to the earlier topic on lifeless beings that I missed, I just wanted to say that I always interrupted "lifeless beings" as basically just being inorganic life forms. They're not alive in a traditional sense. Their bodies can move, but they don't actually function in a traditional way. In advanced cases it seems like the body may actually be closer to a hologram.
We're told that Exspheres themselves have a will and even emotions within them even before they're mined. They're just a type of crystal. They aren't alive. and yet they have a consciousness within them. They are quite literally beings that are lifeless.
Tabitha seems to be some sort of robot and she directly compares herself to them, saying they're both lifeless beings.

Okay I'm actually curious about this because from the extent of my memory, all that we hear about exspheres before they awaken via the parasitic process is from the Sybak scholar who says that they're dormant at first and don't "awaken" until they are attached to a host body. And I don't remember TABATHA saying anything like that either but I'm curious about it because her character is very interesting, as an entity who was created as a vessel for a soul without one of her own (more or less). Do you remember what scenes those were from? MOAR DISCOURSE PLOX

That said I'm not disagreeing with you just curious bc "lifeless being" is used by a lot of characters in a lot of contexts and I'm interested in the different definitions the game presents

I'll also add that when you beat him the final time, even Mithos makes it sound like he's losing himself. It seems that living inside the crystal alone WILL cause a person's consciousness to fade. even fairly rapidly. This is possibly because without a body he has nowhere to actually wear a keycrest to prevent it from happening.

This is an awesome thought and I am 100% inclined to agree.

--

Also I tried to separate "endings I like the best" vs "endings I think are the most impactful narratively", but I'm sure there's some personal bias in there. I refuse to put Genis below S because it's so essential for developing the villain as a character though, I will not relent on that one. (For example though I'm probably not gonna bother with Zelos's again bc I don't care for him that much... even though his role in the story is interesting and I consider his ending one of the most "important.") That said Sheena is still best girl, C Rank is with no shade intended

Last edited by Apollo the Just on Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Okay I'm actually curious about this because from the extent of my memory, all that we hear about exspheres before they awaken via the parasitic process is from the Sybak scholar who says that they're dormant at first and don't "awaken" until they are attached to a host body. And I don't remember TABATHA saying anything like that either but I'm curious about it because her character is very interesting, as an entity who was created as a vessel for a soul without one of her own (more or less). Do you remember what scenes those were from? MOAR DISCOURSE PLOX

That said I'm not disagreeing with you just curious bc "lifeless being" is used by a lot of characters in a lot of contexts and I'm interested in the different definitions the game presents

My memory is hazy, but I think most if not all of it came from an optional sidequest to return to the Toize Valley Mine that I think is kicked off by speaking to Tabitha during a very specific timeframe? Or maybe checking an exshpere that appears on the table there? You go to the mine and the there's a cutscene on that bridge in front of the waterfall deep in the mine and they talk about being able to hear the whispers of the EXspheres and something about them being lonely which is why they absorb the people they're attached to?

I think? Any of this ringing any bells?
Cause I remember it being a really easy thing to miss, but now I'm feeling crazy cause I can't find it on youtube.

Holy ****. I have used the same couple guides to get all the missable side quests my whole life and none of them mentioned that one. I had to find some obscure message board post from 2005 to confirm what you're talking about.

TIME TO FINISH MY CURRENT PLAYTHROUGH AND START A NEW ONE TO CATCH THAT SCENE LMAO

Exspheres experience loneliness; the reason they leech off of living things is out of a strange longing for companionship? That complicates the ethics involving the stones even further and I love it. Holy wow what an excellent game I'm gonna just go lie down and think about how much I love ToS