He is dragging this team all the way down to 3 points behind the Bruins in a division most of you said would kick the living crap out of the Red Wings.

Man it is tough to suck so bad that in arguably the toughest division in Hockey the Red Wings are all of three points out of first with 7 OT or shoot out losses!

What does our record have to do with cleary's awful play? We may be in a good position in the standings, but cleary has been really bad. If anything, you're point proves we should waive cleary once Pavs and Bert come back. If we were in last, there would be no good reason to dump cleary. As it is now, if someone, who can score, was in cleary's place, the wings may have won a few more games.

If they are winning, then the Coach/Org is doing something right, Correct?

And I believe the opposite of you, If the Wings are in last 1/3 of the way through the season that is when you make moves, you don't say "Oh crap, we are 28 games in and in last place, all is lost!" Unless of course you are an organization that doesn't have a 20+ year tradition of making the playoffs.

When you are three points behind the top team in your division, through some real crappy play and an overall lack of goals, you stay the course and try to make line up, not roster changes.

Why on Earth after 28 games you would completely give up and make no changes is beyond me.

The team is getting contributions from guys like Miller, Nyquist, Tatar, Helm and even Smith.

Lots of guys are starting to put together some really good stretches of Play, Alfie, Mule, Helm etc...

Sure the fourth line is not the most explosive line in hockey, but what fourth line is?

BTW, who is this person who could get more out of Cleary's 13 minutes a game?

Other than the obvious answer of "someone Who Scores more", is that a hyphenated last name? Haven't heard of him before!

I get that he is not the Wings best player, but the coach has a lot of respect for him, I will go with Babs opinion over yours, mainly because I know his coaching track record and not yours!

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

The point I was making was that when you're in last place, there are more important issues than dealing with a plug like cleary. Since our top lines are playing well and the team is In a good position in the standings, making changes to our ineffective fourth line is a good idea.

Babs has been playing cleary less and less. The only reason he sees any icetime is because we are short on forwards. As soon as we get Bert or Dats back, cleary will be in the press box. Once DD comes back, cleary is the most likely player to be waived.

So what you are saying is right now there is no better option, but you would like them to pick a better option???

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

Sorry, we will not discuss the performance of individual players whilst the team is doing well in the standings. How silly of us. The team is winning, Cleary is winning!

On a discussion board as well...I can't believe us...what have we become?!

It is not that people are discussing it, it is the way.

When did I say you could not discuss it, what I said was

He is dragging this team all the way down to 3 points behind the Bruins in a division most of you said would kick the living crap out of the Red Wings.

Because people HATE the man, what a miserable life you(in general not you specific) must lead to hate a player on your favorite team because he is not an elite fourth liner anymore.

This is the same Dan Cleary that was one of the top point getters last post season!

I don't take up his cause when someone like Wings_Dynasty says he is disposable, however when some one like Amato posts:

cleary sucks!

I will take up his cause!

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

So what you are saying is right now there is no better option, but you would like them to pick a better option???

No. I'm saying the only reason a better option has not been picked is that there is no better option. When did I say action must be taken, now? I specifically said that the situation is going to be resolved when we get healthy. I'm really not even saying anything disagreeable. Cleary has been bad lately. That doesn't make him a bad person, nor does it mean he was never good. However, going by the eye test and statistics, it's clear, cleary provides nothing for this team.

Nyquist could have been up the entire season without Cleary and I think even six games of evidence has proven Nyquist could handle the minutes. Hell, I would definitely argue that all of Eaves, Tootoo and Glendening in Grand Rapids are better options.

This isn't just a case of "anyone would be better than Cleary." It's absolutely true given the abundance of forwards in the organization back in September and still today.

No. I'm saying the only reason a better option has not been picked is that there is no better option. When did I say action must be taken, now? I specifically said that the situation is going to be resolved when we get healthy. I'm really not even saying anything disagreeable. Cleary has been bad lately. That doesn't make him a bad person, nor does it mean he was never good. However, going by the eye test and statistics, it's clear, cleary provides nothing for this team.

So by quoting me and then asking what my post had to do with the topic is not disagreeing with me?

I apologize for the misunderstanding!

BTW, I hate the "Eye Test" answer that is a BS answer that is impacted by your own bias and perception, which is impacted heavily by a pre-conceived notion of what Cleary is or isn't doing!

Nyquist could have been up the entire season without Cleary and I think even six games of evidence has proven Nyquist could handle the minutes. Hell, I would definitely argue that all of Eaves, Tootoo and Glendening in Grand Rapids are better options.

This isn't just a case of "anyone would be better than Cleary." It's absolutely true given the abundance of forwards in the organization back in September and still today.

Wait, Nyquist is being benched for Cleary?? WOW I must be watching a different Red Wings Team!

BTW this team no longer has a gluttony of forwards, that argument was valid in September, but now Tatar and Nyquist are playing bigger roles than Cleary on this team!

Another BTW, I have no issues with Cleary in the Pressbox when the Wings are healthy, but as of right now what better option is there?

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

Glendening, I will give you, but in this org him coming up already is probably not going to happen!

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

What has either of them done this year or last that tells you they are the better option?

Tootoo gets limited minutes and games because of the exact reason a lot on here like him.

He often takes himself out of the play to make a big hit.

Sure it is nice to see a guy in the winged Wheel lay a big hit or two a game, but not at the price of team D.

Eaves is Miller reincarnate, I still am not sure why Holland continues to sign the both of them, they are both very good PKers, and provide good D, but if Miller is in, do you really need Eaves and vice verse.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

BTW, I hate the "Eye Test" answer that is a BS answer that is impacted by your own bias and perception, which is impacted heavily by a pre-conceived notion of what Cleary is or isn't doing!

Wait, Nyquist is being benched for Cleary?? WOW I must be watching a different Red Wings Team!

First of all, you must have missed the first quarter of the season where Nyquist was playing in GR because Cleary was taking up a roster spot. So yeah, you must have been watching a different Red Wings team than the rest of us.

Second, the "eye-ball" test is only one of two things you can judge a player by (in terms of actual on ice play, this excludes things like leadership and locker room qualities), the other being stats. His stats are pretty abysmal. Looking at his play reveals and abundance of falling down, chipping the puck up/down the boards (no puck possession play; the other team almost always ends up with the puck), and a very occasional weak shot on goal. He's just not very good anymore.

And I want to clear something up. I don't think anybody hates Dan Cleary as a person. What we hate is his current (can't stress that enough) hockey playing ability.

The post I replied to about Nyquist and Tatar said that Cleary was taking up their spot from September until now.

I then posted that the point was valid in Sept but no longer, however you removed that from the quote, either to make me look like I have no clue, or because you didn't realize that I was continuing my point in the next paragraph.

Hence why in the quote I said:

Wait, Nyquist is being benched for Cleary?? WOW I must be watching a different Red Wings Team!

Notice the use of present tense "IS" not past tense "WAS".

Either way, I specifically mentioned the gluttony of forwards no longer being the case and that Nyquist and Tatar are now playing BIGGER roles than Cleary, but why bother quoting my whole post, it only provides context for someone reading your post!

The problem with the "Eye Ball" test is, as I mentioned, your perception is impacted by your preconceived notions and how you feel about Cleary.

Sure you have to see things in order to get a good understanding of what is going on, but using only the "Eye Test" as your argument in a discussion, is incomplete and greatly influenced by your opinion, very, very few people (I am not one of them) can truly look at something and judge it with out any bias and be completely impartial.

Edited by Opie, 03 December 2013 - 10:57 AM.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

What has either of them done this year or last that tells you they are the better option?

Tootoo gets limited minutes and games because of the exact reason a lot on here like him.

He often takes himself out of the play to make a big hit.

Sure it is nice to see a guy in the winged Wheel lay a big hit or two a game, but not at the price of team D.

Eaves is Miller reincarnate, I still am not sure why Holland continues to sign the both of them, they are both very good PKers, and provide good D, but if Miller is in, do you really need Eaves and vice verse.

unfortunately neither of them have done anything this season because they have both saw very limited action. however, based on how much cleary has regressed, i am confident with what eaves and tootoo brought ot the team last year being more valuable than cleary. especially when you consider that the slot cleary is in right now is 4th line winger. that is a slot that any of those 3 guys mentioned can fill.

personally, i think tootoo has had a shorter leash than any player on the wings in recent memory. heck, look at that dumb penalty samuelsson took in the 1st period last game... had tootoo done that, he would have been benched the rest of the game and scratched for at least a week. there is a different standard expected of him than anyone else. and then people criticize him when he doesn't exceed expectations. he certainly will go out of position to make a hit at times, but is that a reason to send him to grand rapids and continue to play can cleary who is currently bringing nothing to the table? and regarding eaves, i believe he has always shown the ability to play his role. he has always had limited even strength minutes and yet still contributes. i think his 2 seasons of 12 and 13 goals show that he can contribute when asked. and i know those seasons are now several years ago, but unlike cleary, eaves has not shown that he is only a shell of his former self.

bigger picture the issue isn't huge. when datsyuk and bertuzzi are back hopefully none of these guys are playing. as long as nyquist and tatar continue to get opportunities to show their value, i am happy.

I love Maltby, but to say he wasn't a ****** is a dis-service to his career of douchebaggery.

unfortunately neither of them have done anything this season because they have both saw very limited action. however, based on how much cleary has regressed, i am confident with what eaves and tootoo brought ot the team last year being more valuable than cleary. especially when you consider that the slot cleary is in right now is 4th line winger. that is a slot that any of those 3 guys mentioned can fill.

personally, i think tootoo has had a shorter leash than any player on the wings in recent memory. heck, look at that dumb penalty samuelsson took in the 1st period last game... had tootoo done that, he would have been benched the rest of the game and scratched for at least a week. there is a different standard expected of him than anyone else. and then people criticize him when he doesn't exceed expectations. he certainly will go out of position to make a hit at times, but is that a reason to send him to grand rapids and continue to play can cleary who is currently bringing nothing to the table? and regarding eaves, i believe he has always shown the ability to play his role. he has always had limited even strength minutes and yet still contributes. i think his 2 seasons of 12 and 13 goals show that he can contribute when asked. and i know those seasons are now several years ago, but unlike cleary, eaves has not shown that he is only a shell of his former self.

bigger picture the issue isn't huge. when datsyuk and bertuzzi are back hopefully none of these guys are playing. as long as nyquist and tatar continue to get opportunities to show their value, i am happy.

All I can say is that Cleary is a +2 while Tootoo (small sample size I get that) is a -4.

I have never liked Tootoo's style,I admit that is a personal bias.

I think he is a border line Matt Cooke/Chris Simon, with a little effort either way he could be a complete Thug, or a very good checking forward.

Unfortunately his play is still in between those, and thus gets frustrating to me.

You are ok with a Patrick Eaves who is injured a lot and had a good year a few years ago, but Cleary's Playoffs last year are not good enough?

Dano was not a barn burner last year during the reg season, but come playoff time he stepped it up.

IMO, he is more responsible in his own end than Tootoo, and to me Eaves doesn't really get me that much more excited than Cleary.

(Not that this is what you are doing, but) I could have predicted the Dan Cleary for LGW whipping boy long before the season started.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock