Is there still awareness of the meditation object in the first jhana? I was just noting the in and out breathing and enter some very subtle rapture and like a state of not being aware of anything it was enjoyable as I felt like I could sit like that for a long time but my awareness was less than normal I could still think but it was very different state than just closing my eyes.

befriend wrote:Is there still awareness of the meditation object in the first jhana? I was just noting the in and out breathing and enter some very subtle rapture and like a state of not being aware of anything it was enjoyable as I felt like I could sit like that for a long time but my awareness was less than normal I could still think but it was very different state than just closing my eyes.

No. The meditation object is dropped in the first Jhana, leaving only a illuminated radiance of knowing. I'd say put more effort into focusing on the rapture and not letting yourself become lazy and letting you attention drift once the rapture arises. You're getting really good results so keep it up my friend.
Ajahn Brahm writes a really well summary of the Jhanas.http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/upl ... -Janas.pdf

befriend wrote:.. a state of not being aware of anything it was enjoyable as I felt like I could sit like that for a long time but my awareness was less than normal I could still think but it was very different

Losing awareness is never a good thing. Jhana is a heightened state of awareness. What you are describing sounds like a form of wrong concentration.

... states of Wrong Concentration can be useful. For instance, you can get yourself in states where you totally lose any sense of the body - strong states of concentration, not that kind of floating, deluded concentration ... states of non-perception, where you really focus on a very minute spot and refuse to deal with anything that comes in through any of the senses. As a result, you can totally blank yourself out. You lose the sense of the body, you can't hear anything, and you can stay there for long periods of time.

If you make up your mind beforehand that you're going to stay for two hours ... Two hours will seem like two minutes. It's Wrong Concentration because there's no way you're going to be able to develop any insight there.

But it has its uses. Ajaan Fuang once had to go into surgery. They were going to remove a kidney, but he didn't trust the anesthesiologist so he put himself in this state so that, no matter what happened, he wouldn't have to suffer pain ...

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo

With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5

Ultimately, your meditation involves sustaining the knowing, followed by continuous letting go as you experience sense objects through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. It involves just this much and there is no need to make anything more out of it.

With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”

You can even walk in the fourth jhana, thats how much awareness u can have .

Is there still awareness of the meditation object in the first jhana? I was just noting the in and out breathing and enter some very subtle rapture and like a state of not being aware of anything it was enjoyable as I felt like I could sit like that for a long time but my awareness was less than normal I could still think but it was very different state than just closing my eyes.

Sounds like you’re on the right track! It’s possible to follow the object all the way until it’s true nature as Emptiness/Sunyata becomes dominant. Don’t try to analyze each experience too deeply; rather go back and practice more.

Sounds like you’re on the right track! It’s possible to follow the object all the way until it’s true nature as Emptiness/Sunyata becomes dominant. Don’t try to analyze each experience too deeply; rather go back and practice more.

This is not really Theravada you are describing. I suspect that many Mahayana ideas have crept into your toolbox.

Yeah there’s a lot of things that look the same from both sides of the fence. Remember that Theraveda is only one of the first 18 strict Nikaya schools . The earliest forms of Mahayana were mostly identical to them with the exception of veneration of the Bodhisattvas. And the Tales of the Bodhisattva, The Jatakas is an ancient canonical text as well. But really my point is that all things are impermanent and transitory, lacking a true self or nature of their own, so the bottom line is that includes your object of meditation, depending on how far you want to take it. So from the practical side of things, that is panna, Wisdom, insight, regarding the object.

Yeah there’s a lot of things that look the same from both sides of the fence. Remember that Theraveda is only one of the first 18 strict Nikaya schools . The earliest forms of Mahayana were mostly identical to them with the exception of veneration of the Bodhisattvas. And the Tales of the Bodhisattva, The Jatakas is an ancient canonical text as well. But really my point is that all things are impermanent and transitory, lacking a true self or nature of their own, so the bottom line is that includes your object of meditation, depending on how far you want to take it. So from the practical side of things, that is panna, Wisdom, insight, regarding the object.

You're putting the cart before the horse. The eclecticism you speak of is a product of not understanding the basics of the Theravada path. I am not saying you shouldn't follow another teaching, but Theravada is not Mahayana. Understanding right view is the beginning. This is the most important first step, not experiencing jhanas. Many lose themselves in pursuit of jhana because they think they will overcome their problems through the temporary suspension of bodily discomfort that jhana gives. All slam back to earth at some point. The 4 Noble Truths, the 8 Fold Path, and the 3 Marks of Existence lead one to the first step of 8, the correct perspective and why this is important for all future endeavors. Without this foundation, the rest is just philosophy, thinking, imagination, entertainment.

I was just noting the in and out breathing and enter some very subtle rapture and like a state of not being aware of anything it was enjoyable as I felt like I could sit like that for a long time but my awareness was less than normal I could still think but it was very different state than just closing my eyes.

This does not sound like jhana (attainment concentration) but sounds like an experience of momentary rapture. It certainly sounds like good progress in the right direction. Whatever you are doing or 'non-doing', keep developing it.

Yeah there’s a lot of things that look the same from both sides of the fence. Remember that Theraveda is only one of the first 18 strict Nikaya schools . The earliest forms of Mahayana were mostly identical to them with the exception of veneration of the Bodhisattvas. And the Tales of the Bodhisattva, The Jatakas is an ancient canonical text as well. But really my point is that all things are impermanent and transitory, lacking a true self or nature of their own, so the bottom line is that includes your object of meditation, depending on how far you want to take it. So from the practical side of things, that is panna, Wisdom, insight, regarding the object.

You're putting the cart before the horse. The eclecticism you speak of is a product of not understanding the basics of the Theravada path. I am not saying you shouldn't follow another teaching, but Theravada is not Mahayana. Understanding right view is the beginning. This is the most important first step, not experiencing jhanas. Many lose themselves in pursuit of jhana because they think they will overcome their problems through the temporary suspension of bodily discomfort that jhana gives. All slam back to earth at some point. The 4 Noble Truths, the 8 Fold Path, and the 3 Marks of Existence lead one to the first step of 8, the correct perspective and why this is important for all future endeavors. Without this foundation, the rest is just philosophy, thinking, imagination, entertainment.

Maybe I am putting the cart before the horse. Nonetheless I find it troubling that reading Majjhima Nikaya 121 evokes some kind of eclectic feeling for you. And it reenforces my main point in regards to the OP. Still I find your suggestions admirable and hopefully us newbies can live up to your standard!

Yeah there’s a lot of things that look the same from both sides of the fence. Remember that Theraveda is only one of the first 18 strict Nikaya schools . The earliest forms of Mahayana were mostly identical to them with the exception of veneration of the Bodhisattvas. And the Tales of the Bodhisattva, The Jatakas is an ancient canonical text as well. But really my point is that all things are impermanent and transitory, lacking a true self or nature of their own, so the bottom line is that includes your object of meditation, depending on how far you want to take it. So from the practical side of things, that is panna, Wisdom, insight, regarding the object.

You're putting the cart before the horse. The eclecticism you speak of is a product of not understanding the basics of the Theravada path. I am not saying you shouldn't follow another teaching, but Theravada is not Mahayana. Understanding right view is the beginning. This is the most important first step, not experiencing jhanas. Many lose themselves in pursuit of jhana because they think they will overcome their problems through the temporary suspension of bodily discomfort that jhana gives. All slam back to earth at some point. The 4 Noble Truths, the 8 Fold Path, and the 3 Marks of Existence lead one to the first step of 8, the correct perspective and why this is important for all future endeavors. Without this foundation, the rest is just philosophy, thinking, imagination, entertainment.

Maybe I am putting the cart before the horse. Nonetheless I find it troubling that reading Majjhima Nikaya 121 evokes some kind of eclectic feeling for you. And it reenforces my main point in regards to the OP. Still I find your suggestions admirable and hopefully us newbies can live up to your standard!

I wasn't referring to MN121 being eclectic. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was referring to the way you are thinking about all this. These are not my standards, but refer to the way Theravada is taught. It is not a 'sudden' school at all. It also doesn't fixate on states of self. It is a different orientation. I found that coming from a Mahayana view, it is not easy to understand this orientation. It's really about boots on the ground, so to speak.

Hey that’s alright, Lam Te Dhyana style Thien as-it currently stands (my practice up until now) is actually a midway point between Cha’an and Forest Theraveda. I have the same lingo problems discussing with Zen people, I sound like I’m in the wrong toolbox there too. It will all work out. BTW intend to use forums more like a sandbox than a publishing platform, I’m not too worried about being taken literally.

That having been said, I’m still putting the cart before the horse and getting grounded in real world meditation practice first and foremost- book learning will come easier and then have more practical value.

I spent some time studying the Leigh Brasington material and it’s spot on. So one problem is solved already - aligning real world experience with a teaching tradition that jives with it.