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Author
Topic: Hiv : can it be healed (Read 14235 times)

hi everyone.. i have had hiv for about 5 years, and i am on my healing journey.. contracting hiv, obviously, means different things to different people but after I got over the shock, and almost dying, I decided to see the positive in the situation.. I had been so scared and depressed, but deep down I knew that there had to be some 'higher' reason for my life situation.. So, hand on heart, I truly believe.. In fact, I know, that it has been the best experience of my life.. I know that there may be many people out there suffering, and you may be one of them, but we all have a choice. Do we sit around and wait to die, or wait for a medical cure, or do we ....

You know what, we all deal with trauma in our own individual ways, but where is the use in being negative about being positive.. You may think i'm being flippant, and of course, that's your choice... but you could choose to be positive.. it may save your life.. and besides, we have an experience of something that the majority cannot begin to comprehend.. we have been to the edge.. so again CHOICE!! do you choose to stay on the edge, and feel the fear of peoples perception of the disease, and take that fear into your soul or do you turn back and come back to life with an awareness and resolve that most would envy.. I know which option I am choosing...

So, as you can tell, I am a life coach.. but I am a life coach with HIV..

We have a choice... I know what my choice is.. I am choosing to find a way to be healed..

If by "healed" you mean "cured", you're sadly mistaken. Hiv has no cure right now and there's no cure in the pipeline either. Anyone who tells you different either doesn't know what they're talking about, or is lying to you to get to your wallet.

You're getting into thin-ice territory here - you will not be allowed to use this site to prey on the hopes and fears of vulnerable people.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Dan J.

I can't say that being HIV+ for 21 years & a full blown AIDS diagnosis since 2003 has been the best experience of my life & if I could go back and change it I would. But, I can't think that way because it does me no good in the here & now. Sure HIV/AIDS took a lot away from me but at the same time it's given me so much. The best thing that ever happened in my life since becoming HIV is having a good Dr. & finding this website in 2003 & the friendships that I have made here. & of course I have my Hermie, the love of my life.

There are plenty of us here who maintain a positive outlook on life. However, that does not extend to believing false claims that if someone just has enough "faith", they can be "healed". We cannot allow you to make such claims here.

We tend to temper our positive outlooks with a healthy dose of scientific realism here. If you don't like realism, then maybe there is another forum out there where you'll feel at home.

I wouldn't like to see you throw the baby out with the bathwater and just stomp off, as this site is a great source of factual information and friendly support for many all around the world. At the same time, advocating quack cures is prohibited on this website.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

And to anyone who wonders why she (and I) are questioning this person's claims you might want to read up on "Life Coaching" and what it involves here, including such claims as:

Accidents and SicknessAccidents and illness are physical manifestations of a thought process that is in error. Accidents and illness are physical symbols telling you something in your life is not working—they are warning signs.

To me that's just more New Age nonsense, and it can really harm people badly.

..... Do we sit around and wait to die, or wait for a medical cure, or do we ....

........ CHOICE!! do you choose to stay on the edge, and feel the fear of peoples perception of the disease, and take that fear into your soul or do you turn back and come back to life with an awareness and resolve that most would envy.. I know which option I am choosing...

If by "healed" you mean "cured", you're sadly mistaken. Hiv has no cure right now and there's no cure in the pipeline either. Anyone who tells you different either doesn't know what they're talking about, or is lying to you to get to your wallet.

You're getting into thin-ice territory here - you will not be allowed to use this site to prey on the hopes and fears of vulnerable people.

I understand he's not talking about a "medical" cure but what I want to know is, is he talking about a clinical cure? If so, in what sense? What exactly is meant by "healed"? Absence of antibodies? Undetectable viral load? If he's going by undetectable viral load, who's to say if this "healed" person isn't an elite controler?

When you start thowing the word "healed" and hiv around together in the same sentences, tied into religious thinking (read his blog, folks - http://www.mrpositive.wordpress.com/), then you better be ready to answer some hard questions.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

It's good to be positive about things, and not to stress, and find ways to deal with this (or anything in life really). The flipside is that a lot of people who are New Agers and preach a positive outlook will also claim that anything that happens to someone, whether an accident, a disease or how it progresses, rape, war, unemployment, loss of a loved one, depression, etc etc, is a result of what they "invited from the universe" (e.g. "Secret"). I really don't like that. I resented a lot of times, before I was even diagnosed, the kind of people that say, for example, that cancer is self-inflicted or that letting it progress is a choice. There is no doubt in the benefit of positive thinking (to the quality of life if for nothing else), but we can't think that we can control everything whether a virus or anything else. Anyway I wish you good luck with your journey and good luck maintaining a good health and life quality, but hope that you will not rely only of the power of the mind but also and most importantly on the medicine that are our only chance of staying alive.

Logged

"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

I understand he's not talking about a "medical" cure but what I want to know is, is he talking about a clinical cure? If so, in what sense? What exactly is meant by "healed"? Absence of antibodies? Undetectable viral load? If he's going by undetectable viral load, who's to say if this "healed" person isn't an elite controler?

When you start thowing the word "healed" and hiv around together in the same sentences, tied into religious thinking (read his blog, folks - http://www.mrpositive.wordpress.com/), then you better be ready to answer some hard questions.

Ann

I felt he was talking about the state of mind, not letting the disease overwhelm and controll your entire being (like it does to the body).

About his blog: the ice is too thin for me to walk on. So count me out. However to each his own

Oh yeah baby, and the accompanying link for Joao de Deus (John of God) is even more delicious. My best friend goes to a similar type of guy, though I doubt he has his own wikipedia entry, in Ecuador. He's not under any illusion of being cured though -- frankly I think it was just some sort of trend. I need to ask him if he's gone lately.

And *wow* the man DOES actually claim to heal AIDS. I'm sure I could get more positive healing in a Sao Paulo bath house, but I digress.

At first I thought he was talking about emotional, spiritual or psychological healing. But oh noooo. He was talking about being cured. Thank you Ann for doing a little background and leaving a link to this guy's blog. poor guy, he is obviously caught up in the hype of this John of God ( hey wait a second, aren't we all of god, what makes John so special). This prompted me to do a little web search myself. Looking for the pros and the cons. Hmmm very interesting. Besides, the huge profiting from hundreds of daily foreign visitors (most tours running about 1500 per person not including the magical prescriptions and holy water) for some reason those seeking "healing" need to keep coming back. You should read some of the horror stories of people receiving these so-called surgeries done with actual scalpels with no anesthesia, some without even getting permission. But that seems to be overlooked in the media.

I find this horribly offensive. I have to admit I do healing work; I am a shamanic practitioner. I have traveled, visited and studied with shamans all over, particularly in Nepal. Never once did I encounter someone coming with a medical condition that the shaman did NOT say, "now you need to go to a medical doctor." That is also why healing work in the countries I have been in is done in front of the families and communities so they can be instructed about how to support them at all levels. Yes, I do know that there are cultures that do not have access or exposure to medical care and do ghastly things but that's a different story Here in the West there is a huge need for spiritual and psychological healing tied to illness especially in the motivation to take care of yourself and build a support system, build safer boundaries, etc. And that's where I come in as a practitioner; helping people find the tools they need (without the expectation of cost or buying the DVD or signing up for the tour- god that pisses me off!) It troubles me that so many people get in such a vulnerable situation, that they are easily taken advantage of by others looking to profit.

I agree with the attitude part, but the "healing" word makes me very uncomfortable. You should really be upfront with what exactly you mean by it (which I'm hoping is not advocacy of some new-age quackery cure).

Mike (who found this thread very confusing)

Logged

"Get your medical advice from Doctors or medical professionals who you trust and know your history."

"Beware of the fortune teller doom and gloomers who seek to bring you down and are only looking for company, purpose and validation - not your best physical/mental interests."

"You know you all are saying that this is incurable. When the real thing you should be saying is it's not curable at the present time' because as we know, the great strides we've made in medicine." - Elizabeth Edwards

Honey, a cut on your finger "heals". Infection with HIV does not heal. Sorry.Sure, lots of us are keeping the wolves at bay with the "wonder drugs" (the wonder is we can swallow them every day).....but it's no walk in the park.

Rule 1# a fool and his money are soon parted

Don't be foolish about HIV. It is nothing to 'fool' around with.

Alan

Logged

"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

wow.. this seems to be a touchy thread, but without reading the blog about the "miracle" doc in Brazil, what I took from the original post was a "spiritual" healing and not a actual cure. Maybe I am being naive, but I think most of us who read this post assumed the same thing and welcomed it for what it was, or appeared to be.

HIV is still, and will continue to be, in this day and age enough to knock anyone spiritually out of whack. Of course that is to say they believe in spirituality in the first place. Nevertheless some of what was said in the original post makes sense......

"but you could choose to be positive.. it may save your life.. and besides, we have an experience of something that the majority cannot begin to comprehend.. we have been to the edge.. so again CHOICE!! do you choose to stay on the edge, and feel the fear of peoples perception of the disease, and take that fear into your soul or do you turn back and come back to life with an awareness and resolve that most would envy."

I do believe in this passage. My spiritual healing has allowed me to reach a place where I value and respect myself which overall offers me a better quality of life.

I don't believe in miracle cures, and I don't advocate anyone preying on a persons vulnerability if that was indeed the intent.

although I agree with healing being a process and not a cure just as this forum has been a part of healing in many ways for many of us.The guy who started this post is talking about seeing John of God in Brazil, who told him he would be cured in 4 years. This J.O.G. claims he has cleared 100's of people of cancer and AIDS. You should read his blog (mr pozitive) and web links that were posted by others (Ann milker). I personally have a couple of friends that have been entangled with this John of God and are seriously ill and are not getting better. The reason that they aren't getting better is that they are being told they aren't following his directions by abstaining from eating pork, having sex, eating pepper, having bad thoughts, etc.... it is a crime that this is allowed to continue. Apparently this JOG is very charismatic and it is easy to get caught up in the frenzy being in his presence, but so was Hitler

Ha! Well, being a religious person, I DO believe in miraculous cures. Certainly, I wouldn't advocate foregoing treatment, etc. and can see the potential danger of where the original post COULD lead to. But, I do find the harsh reactions from moderators and other ever-vigilant members to have a chilling affect on the discourse. It seems to have drive him away completely. Which may be good riddance to bad rubbish, yet I think such reactions could have waited for a time when the thread took a turn into such troubled waters.

And just to be clear, miracles don't happen to people who deserve them. Nothing we say or do can make a miracle happen. Rather, they happen as matters of grace. But, we can be a "miracle" to others in this world when we show kindness and compassion and genuine love.

I think such reactions could have waited for a time when the thread took a turn into such troubled waters.

As stated up above the moderators were already dealing with him in another thread previous to this that he'd hijacked, and proclaimed that he'd spoken with someone in Brazil who had been "completely healed."

Nobody banned him, but do you expect others just to nod their heads in agreement?

well said... and I couldn't agree with you more. I was a little thrown off by the moderators response to the original post. Talking to people here might of made things more clear for him. helped him realize a different perspective. now I fear we might of lost someone who is still searching for.....something.

I too am a spiritual person, and believe in miracles. They happen everyday. What I meant in my earlier post is that I don't believe in "miracle cures"as someone telling me if I do this, or that...for a small fee of course, I can be healed.

Remembering the other thread Mr. Positive posted in and then reading this one, I don't think Ann or others overreacted.

If I start a thread in which I state I believe a healthy spiritual life can augment and help sustain a person's physical health - which I happen to believe, by the way - people may disagree but would probably not react with much antipathy.

If, however, I said there was a spiritual way for me to heal myself of HIV, to cure myself, then people would jump my case faster than you can say Jack Robinson - and they would be right to do so.

Reading Mr. Positive's blog, I have no doubt he believes what he is saying is true. But, as I have pointed out to some of my more dogmatic brethren, believing something does not make it true or factual.

my last post was way too harsh. I realized that I reacted way too strongly to my emotions tied to my friends who are currently engaged with this John of God phenomena. I hope Mr Positive as well as my friends do find peace with themselves and what's afflicting them. I just hope no one gets hurt in the process. forgive me

I have lost a friend to not HIV, but leukemia some years ago. He decided to cut his treatments, which at the time were improving his conditions though he still believed that the meds and chemo were killing him, not the cancer. He read something about a miracle monk doctor in a town near Tibet, left a note and took off one day while on a treatment break back home. We only got to see him like a month later, calling his sister for more money (he bought with him like USD10,000 as "donation"). His family went and had to call the local police to recuse him and took him away. At this stage he was very sick and still insisted that he was getting better with the magical healing, herbal tea and other treatments that were given by this monk. He died a week later, screaming and yelling at his sister and us whenever we visited, blaming his imminent death on us.

I think anyone who has spent times reading this forum will get the idea that there's certain philosophy behind it - we talk about medical treatments, side efforts, etc with a shared understanding that they work in a sense that they make HIV "manageable". It's not a forum for the discussions of AIDS-denialism or comparing notes on the latest miracle cures offered by monks, gurus or churches in South America, India, Spain or China. I haven't checked but there have to be other groups or forums for that on the web.

Some people will suck the life out of already sick people. I do believe in spiritual balance as well as do many here, but I don't believe a mere man can heal someone without there being hard scientific proof that what he's doing works. If this guy believes that, it's his choice. But he shouldn't come on here expecting anyone else to believe it.

Logged

I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

As stated up above the moderators were already dealing with him in another thread previous to this that he'd hijacked, and proclaimed that he'd spoken with someone in Brazil who had been "completely healed."

Nobody banned him, but do you expect others just to nod their heads in agreement?

So what you have said is that the moderators had a "prejudice" against him due to the prior thread and that this "prejudice" forms a rational basis for these reactions. God forbid that I be held perpetually accountable for everything I've ever thought or said. And its only by connecting one thread with another with another website with a blog that a strange conclusion is reached that this fellow is dangerous. As you stated, nobody banned him. If this thread were in violation of the terms of use, then simply ban him and delete his thread. Rather, not banning him supports the theory that the tact taken was somewhat of a 'pre-emptive' strike. Kind of a "shock and awe" campaign in the search for "words of mass destruction."

What is that wonderful quote regarding our founding fathers and freedom of speech? I may not agree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to speak or somesuch? You speak, I listen. I may even respond. Then, you respond and someone else joins in and voila! You don't have to nod your head in agreement. You can shake it vigorously in dissent, if you choose.

This thread had some great opportunities to talk about healing in terms of forgiveness of oneself for various acts of commission and omission; forgiving others; nurturing the spirit; the mind/body connection as well as a discussion about avoiding quackery, if that is where the thread went. We don't know where this thread may have gone and never will. Maybe Big Brother is right. I just feel the harsh reactions quashed the thread too soon.

Maybe Big Brother is right. I just feel the harsh reactions quashed the thread too soon.

Why do you get to decide who is and who isn't Big Brother? If it disturbs your religious sensibilities you are usually the first to point a finger at others that may not share your beliefs. As an atheist I believe that religion is more than responsible for much of the world's problems. Pointing out facts did not quash the debate. There was no question in my mind the man was promoting spiritual healing as a "cure", he said as much in his posts. Bring on the spiritual argument if you like, you are always welcome to start a thread on the topic and let the debate begin. However, post in Lipo that prayer is the answer to an extended belly and I will challenge that assertion.

So what you have said is that the moderators had a "prejudice" against him due to the prior thread and that this "prejudice" forms a rational basis for these reactions. God forbid that I be held perpetually accountable for everything I've ever thought or said.

Since you weren't there, and obviously have not read all the threads, you don't realize they were going on concurrently. I somehow doubt if you've also read Mr. Positive's web blog that he linked to, or the information easily obtainable on the healer he was referencing (where he's obviously a quack that takes HIV sufferers money and even goes as far as to perform unlicensed surgery on them).

If you don't "get" that all of that veers towards AIDS Denialism and quackery and has no place on this web board then I really don't know what to say. And I'm quite sure if Mr. Positive had continued on his track way past six posts he WOULD have eventually been banned. If you have an issue with banning AIDS denialists and advocates of quackery then you REALLY need to take that up with the owners of this web forum board, but you know what -- it won't go anywhere. If that's the kind of material you wish to read you probably should look elsewhere before veering into red herring land about the founding fathers. This is a privately owned board so it has ZILCH to do with the first amendment, no matter how much you wish to insist that it does, and once again exhibiting that you have no clue what you're talking about.

Frankly you've not read all of the stuff and are prattling on talking out of your ass. Sounds like you have a bit of an agenda as well.

it is accompanied by a disclaimer that HIV cannot be healed, but obviously the doctor who wrote the book was aware of that, and yet chose to call it "HEALING HIV"...

While its title is a little misleading ? HIV can't be "healed" as of yet—and the editors of this web site prefer discussing treatments that undergo rigorous clinical testing, this book by Jon D. Kaiser is considered one of the best on discussing alternative therapies for HIV. It responsibly explores how nontraditional approaches can be combined with current & experimental anti-HIV treatment regimens.

...yes, as noted there is a disclaimer and no where does the author advocate spiritual healing as a cure.

Why do you get to decide who is and who isn't Big Brother? If it disturbs your religious sensibilities you are usually the first to point a finger at others that may not share your beliefs. As an atheist I believe that religion is more than responsible for much of the world's problems. Pointing out facts did not quash the debate. There was no question in my mind the man was promoting spiritual healing as a "cure", he said as much in his posts. Bring on the spiritual argument if you like, you are always welcome to start a thread on the topic and let the debate begin. However, post in Lipo that prayer is the answer to an extended belly and I will challenge that assertion.

Its not me who gets to decide who plays Big Brother. That role is filled by those who operate this site and appoint various moderators. That role is also filled by those who seem to self-appoint themselves as some type of unofficial moderator.

The rest of your post makes little sense and isn't even responsive to the concern which I have regarding the way this fellow has been treated. I find it shameful. We have vocabularies and for most of us, they are quite large and functional and therefore, we can choose words which may express concern and maintain a good balance between concern and caution without driving someone out. For example, "I appreciate what you are saying about healing, but...I'm concerned that your use of the word "heal" could mislead people into thinking that a cure exists...." This might have been a good start. Certainly, it would have allowed him to participate and clarify his position.

Let's imagine a scenario where a person, who is clearly suffering from some disease, is wearing a t-shirt that says "AidsWalk 2007" walks into....hmmm...how about a church...where they would like to experience some spiritual comfort or healing. Now, let's imagine the usher takes one look and surmises that this person is suffering from AIDS and says, "Welcome, there's no cure for AIDS. I hope you won't be spreading it around here..."

Or how about the classic, "Hi! Great to see you! Are you stlll beating your wife?"

Or how about "We welcome gays! We can heal your homosexuality!"

I find the rush to judgment incredible. Especially where this fellow had apparently been warned in another thread. I think he was entitled to the benefit of the doubt in the new thread.

Since you weren't there, and obviously have not read all the threads, you don't realize they were going on concurrently. I somehow doubt if you've also read Mr. Positive's web blog that he linked to, or the information easily obtainable on the healer he was referencing (where he's obviously a quack that takes HIV sufferers money and even goes as far as to perform unlicensed surgery on them).

If you don't "get" that all of that veers towards AIDS Denialism and quackery and has no place on this web board then I really don't know what to say. And I'm quite sure if Mr. Positive had continued on his track way past six posts he WOULD have eventually been banned. If you have an issue with banning AIDS denialists and advocates of quackery then you REALLY need to take that up with the owners of this web forum board, but you know what -- it won't go anywhere. If that's the kind of material you wish to read you probably should look elsewhere before veering into red herring land about the founding fathers. This is a privately owned board so it has ZILCH to do with the first amendment, no matter how much you wish to insist that it does, and once again exhibiting that you have no clue what you're talking about.

Frankly you've not read all of the stuff and are prattling on talking out of your ass. Sounds like you have a bit of an agenda as well.

I think it is you who are talking out of your ass. Ann didn't ban him. After he expressed a concern about whether he was welcome here, she emphatically expressed that he was welcome, provided, of course, that he did not violate the terms of use etc.

You may need a government to compel you do what is right, but as for me, the morals of the marketplace do not suffice. In my private life as well as public, I insist on doing what I believe is right, not merely what is acceptable or convenient. Sometimes that costs something, including enduring insults from those who cannot simply mount a counter-argument. Alas.

Oh cut the hystrionics Fond. We all know that Doxie and the Philodendron are on the money here.

This fellow is pedaling quackery and a Mod chipped him for it. Nobody was banned and I can't understand why you're indulging in this over wrought hand-wringing, except that being endlessly contrary is your preferred pastime.

No you don't, you do it all the time. Feigned piety, piggy backing (and not in the good way) on other people's threads so you can come in and shake your finger and scold us like some angry Sunday school teacher.

hi everyone.. i have had hiv for about 5 years, and i am on my healing journey.. contracting hiv, obviously, means different things to different people but after I got over the shock, and almost dying, I decided to see the positive in the situation.. I had been so scared and depressed, but deep down I knew that there had to be some 'higher' reason for my life situation.. So, hand on heart, I truly believe.. In fact, I know, that it has been the best experience of my life.. I know that there may be many people out there suffering, and you may be one of them, but we all have a choice. Do we sit around and wait to die, or wait for a medical cure, or do we ....

You know what, we all deal with trauma in our own individual ways, but where is the use in being negative about being positive.. You may think i'm being flippant, and of course, that's your choice... but you could choose to be positive.. it may save your life.. and besides, we have an experience of something that the majority cannot begin to comprehend.. we have been to the edge.. so again CHOICE!! do you choose to stay on the edge, and feel the fear of peoples perception of the disease, and take that fear into your soul or do you turn back and come back to life with an awareness and resolve that most would envy.. I know which option I am choosing...

So, as you can tell, I am a life coach.. but I am a life coach with HIV..

We have a choice... I know what my choice is.. I am choosing to find a way to be healed..

I keep reading it. I don't see anything about John of God. I read that he's on a healing journey. Aren't we all. I suppose we could be more fatalistic and say we are on a journey to death. That's true of everyone from the moment they are born. Should we say that we bought an express ticket or take the slow ride?

And, yes, its a favorite pastime of mine to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, find a home for the homeless...and otherwise, be contrary to the indifference and suffering I see for the least among us.

And, if you think its me scolding you like an angry Sunday school teacher, look about you - its likely your conscience.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I keep reading it. I don't see anything about John of God. I read that he's on a healing journey. Aren't we all. I suppose we could be more fatalistic and say we are on a journey to death. That's true of everyone from the moment they are born. Should we say that we bought an express ticket or take the slow ride?

And, yes, its a favorite pastime of mine to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, find a home for the homeless...and otherwise, be contrary to the indifference and suffering I see for the least among us.

And, if you think its me scolding you like an angry Sunday school teacher, look about you - its likely your conscience.

At least spare us your cliched, hackneyed, mixed metaphors and tired analogies. Phony piety is evident whenever one feels the need to point out their good deeds while questioning the conscience and heart of others. Somehow I don't think this is what your friend Jesus had in mind when he said turn the other cheek. Judge not, lest....never mind.