I too disagree with all you said. If you take God out of the founding of this nation you would not have this nation or the Constitution of this nation.

I can tell by your writing that you have no understanding of either the Constitution of the united States, or the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

If you prefer the politics of church and state, you need to read the writings of one Thomas Jefferson on that very thought and how his thoughts have been totally guttted from his oringial meaning by the misleadings of payed lawyers. The phrase "seperation of church and state" is nowhere to be found in either the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. It is a concept of "the twiststation of words" by lawyers and money whose only one wish and desire is to see the new and experimental nation of the united States to fail. I try very hard to stay out of politics when I am on this forum but your post and the lacking of the history and knowledge of this country along with your opinions, rattled a door I really try to keep closed.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Quaesitor

I'm not american but I have to agree with Firstborn. Christianity and the state is just another Babylon and when given political control, the church becomes a monster. Medieval catholicism is a huge proof of that and americans are blinding themselves if they think their christian country is better. In fact, christians politics in the States have created more hate against christians around the world than anything else.

I'm not american but I have to agree with Firstborn. Christianity and the state is just another Babylon and when given political control, the church becomes a monster. Medieval catholicism is a huge proof of that and americans are blinding themselves if they think their christian country is better. In fact, christians politics in the States have created more hate against christians around the world than anything else.

I would totally concur, christianity is Babylon and it is corrupting. My statement was about Kingdom of God, not christianity, I suggest there is a great difference.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

I'm not american but I have to agree with Firstborn. Christianity and the state is just another Babylon and when given political control, the church becomes a monster. Medieval catholicism is a huge proof of that and americans are blinding themselves if they think their christian country is better. In fact, christians politics in the States have created more hate against christians around the world than anything else.

Unfortunately, the american people keep trying to correct the problems and look what happens--they just get worse. That alone should tell you, we are being consistently lied to and manipulated. The same thing is happening in Canada, the UK, and the EU, at an even faster rate. Preaching from portions of the Bible is a hate crime in Canada, is it not? Haven't you put preachers in jail? This is a worldwide problem having to do with a challenge to the sovereignty of nations, and, in this country, of people. The only religion that is becoming outlawed is Christianity. You can still read Harry Potter in public school [witchcraft], celebrate earth day[paganism], and sing praises to the president [cult of personality], but you cannot sing Silent Night.

Don't kid your self that we have seperation of church and state, we are moving deeper and deeper into state approved religions only. And, they're not Christianity, at least not anything I would recognize as Christianity.

"What ya'll are complaining about is that not everyone wears the label "Christian" and therefore the government can't endorse Christianity." I haven't seen anyone say that.

That's what it boils down to though. Atheists complained because a government institution (government schools) were endorsing a specific religious belief system. They were right and the correct changes were made. Yet many Christians disagree with the constitution and want a totalitarian Christian state. Want proof? Virtually none of those bemoaning the removal of Christian prayer from government schools are calling for instating Wiccan prayers or Hindu prayers in public schools.

As far as the "us vs. them nonsense"? "...and so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans; for not everyone belongs to the Faith!" 2 Thes. 3:2

Perfect example. You (apparently) want government schools to endorse Christian prayers and (apparently) label everyone else as abnormal and wicked. The facts of the matter is that many who pray Christian prayers are abnormal and wicked (do you follow current events?) and many who do not are not.

I personally don't disagree with everything you've said. I don't think anyone is talking about hating or abusing anyone, or endorsing "fundamentalist Christianity". Believing in a faith that disputes "anything goes"? Wishing for a culture that embraces Jesus Christ and His ways? You bet.

You are free to believe whatever you wish - and so is everyone else. That's the point. The founders fled Christian states fully understanding that state sponsored religion in any form is a recipe for oppression/disaster. That's why Jesus is never mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

And God will bring it about. I believe there's a purpose for the decline/falling away, as He works everything according to His will.

People are seeing through the facade of fundamentalist superstition and so naturally some sects of Christianity will see a decline.

Byron, I didn't say everyone who didn't pray Christian prayers were abnormal or wicked. I believe that's your assumption. I was addressing you saying "us vs. them nonsense". If you don't see there's a difference in believers and unbelievers, I probably can't fix that. It's all through the Book and IMO, God-revealed.

As far as further discussion on this matter, I believe I'll try to refrain. I really don't enjoy discussing when someone takes 1 +2 and adds it up to 4. You're mind's obviously already made up, and you also want to tell me what I think. If I can't just share my thoughts and them be taken as how I say and mean them, I really don't want to take the time and energy trying to keep correcting misapplied motives to what I'm saying.

It's fine, I still love you, I just don't want to engage in fruitless debates - especially when what I believe and say ends up being interpreted as something else. James.

I would totally concur, christianity is Babylon and it is corrupting. My statement was about Kingdom of God, not christianity, I suggest there is a great difference.

Right, amen. But if there already is a presumption of what "everyone" is saying, then they don't hear what your heart truly is. Maybe Q doesn't reallly know what specifici individuals in this topic really believe though, and IMO, that's a different matter than applying one's own motive to others thoughts and beliefs.

Amen Micah......generally speaking, Christianity and the Kingdom are not the same thing. Christianity displays bits and pieces of the Kingdom, here and there, just as we display bits and pieces of the Kingdom until He be all in all, fully manifested.

As for the separation of church and State, it was distorted to mean something the founding fathers never meant. They came here for freedom of religion from the RCC primarily, both Jews and Protestants, and they didn't want a State FORCED religion like the one they came out from under. They did not have to deal with Islam, Satanists, Humanist thinking, ect., so they did not anticipate their freedom would be used against them to further corrupt men away from God and His Word. My Blessings....

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Amen Micah......generally speaking, Christianity and the Kingdom are not the same thing. Christianity displays bits and pieces of the Kingdom, here and there, just as we display bits and pieces of the Kingdom until He be all in all, fully manifested.

As for the separation of church and State, it was distorted to mean something the founding fathers never meant. They came here for freedom of religion from the RCC primarily, both Jews and Protestants, and they didn't want a State FORCED religion like the one they came out from under. They did not have to deal with Islam, Satanists, Humanist thinking, ect., so they did not anticipate their freedom would be used against them to further corrupt men away from God and His Word. My Blessings....

Amen. As I said, I know of no one [here] that's talking about abuse, or even unkindness towards others. But going to extremes the other direction, IMO, isn't a good idea either. IMO, the falling away is pretty clear - and it will certainly take God to redeem and restore us.

If the salt has lost its savor it is no longer good for anything but to b cast out and trodden under foot by men.

No laws pro or con can make the difference an empowered kingdom of priests can. Or the difference a lamp set up on the lampstand can. Or the difference a city set on a hill can. Or the difference a body full of light can. Or the difference the intercessors who are crying out from under the altar can.

The eye is the light od the soul. If the eye is single then the whole body will be full of light. So let your light shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify God. No man sets a lamp under the bushel basket, but rather sets it on top of the bushel basket so it may shine light into all the house.

The bushel basket is the construction of man. It is not evil in itself, it is simply deficient until properly used.

If we walk in the light as He is in the light then we will have fellowship(koinonea-union, oneness) together and the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all sin.

"What ya'll are complaining about is that not everyone wears the label "Christian" and therefore the government can't endorse Christianity." I haven't seen anyone say that.

That's what it boils down to though. Atheists complained because a government institution (government schools) were endorsing a specific religious belief system. They were right and the correct changes were made. Yet many Christians disagree with the constitution and want a totalitarian Christian state. Want proof? Virtually none of those bemoaning the removal of Christian prayer from government schools are calling for instating Wiccan prayers or Hindu prayers in public schools.

As far as the "us vs. them nonsense"? "...and so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans; for not everyone belongs to the Faith!" 2 Thes. 3:2

Perfect example. You (apparently) want government schools to endorse Christian prayers and (apparently) label everyone else as abnormal and wicked. The facts of the matter is that many who pray Christian prayers are abnormal and wicked (do you follow current events?) and many who do not are not.

I personally don't disagree with everything you've said. I don't think anyone is talking about hating or abusing anyone, or endorsing "fundamentalist Christianity". Believing in a faith that disputes "anything goes"? Wishing for a culture that embraces Jesus Christ and His ways? You bet.

You are free to believe whatever you wish - and so is everyone else. That's the point. The founders fled Christian states fully understanding that state sponsored religion in any form is a recipe for oppression/disaster. That's why Jesus is never mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

And God will bring it about. I believe there's a purpose for the decline/falling away, as He works everything according to His will.

People are seeing through the facade of fundamentalist superstition and so naturally some sects of Christianity will see a decline.

Byron, I didn't say everyone who didn't pray Christian prayers were abnormal or wicked. I believe that's your assumption. I was addressing you saying "us vs. them nonsense". If you don't see there's a difference in believers and unbelievers, I probably can't fix that. It's all through the Book and IMO, God-revealed.

As far as further discussion on this matter, I believe I'll try to refrain. I really don't enjoy discussing when someone takes 1 +2 and adds it up to 4. You're mind's obviously already made up, and you also want to tell me what I think. If I can't just share my thoughts and them be taken as how I say and mean them, I really don't want to take the time and energy trying to keep correcting misapplied motives to what I'm saying.

It's fine, I still love you, I just don't want to engage in fruitless debates - especially when what I believe and say ends up being interpreted as something else. James.

You know I like to think big picture . When someone expresses ideas I try to see what the idea is like if followed through upon to it's implied goal. When we make statements bemoaning the absence of state sponsored prayer then I like to get to the heart of the matter - that's why I extend the ideas to their logical/illogical end. So I'm not really doing 1+2 = 4 but I'm filling in the unspoken gaps to fill out the equation.

Sorry for my generalizing and using your statements as a springboard to make my points. It's just how my mind works.

Just a few general remarks.People often don't see the flaws in themself.Things are similar when looking at the country one lives in. Our the constitution.I think it's good to define religion.Personally I think religion at the time of the writing of the constitution in the US or many EU contries simply means forms of Christianity.Freedom of religion simply meant: Catholics are not allowed to kill protestants. A protestant major won't close Catholic schools in his town.I very much doubt wicca, satanism, tree worship, islam etc were considered religions.So my guess is if the constitution says schools are allowed to teach all religions that originally excluded for example islam.

Even right now UR is called a sect (at best).Do you think people that lived 200 years ago would consider satanism a religion?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Do you think people that lived 200 years ago would consider satanism a religion?

Sure. Hence the burning of witches.

Even the Old Testament mentions witches, magic, soothsayers, and the like--these are those who consort with demons.

You are right that the Founders only had different flavors of Christianity in mind when they considered freedom of religion, though. If we are ever no longer a Christian country, the whole nature of our country and our Constitution will change--as we can see happening already today.

People back then considered Satanism to be the complete opposite of Religion, at least as far as the general populace was concerned.

Exactly.So when you read the word religion in the constitution or documents of that time it simply meant Christianity.And certainly not satanism, islam etc.In other words the constitution grands zero rights to people of those religions.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

You can't have prayer in school because it offends the Atheists, yet the religion of Atheism is gladly taught, so much for separation of Church and State...The closest thing to a person without a religion is a True Agnostic, which quite frankly...doesn't exist. Our current system isn't Agnostic, clearly it isn't when you can't even pray, or discuss religion without an Atheist (a member of the religion that holds to the belief of the absence, and non-existence of God) getting in a hissy fit over it.

There are only three realms in the spectrum of ideology (I believe) when it comes to matters of Faith.

Knowing <-- Belief --> Ignorance

Knowing is absolutely knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt the conclusion of the evidence. In essence, you are One with what is True.

Belief is driven by faith and trust in your interpretation and choice based on the presented facts of evidence.

Ignorance is absolutely not knowing, which can only be achieved by a complete lack of evidence, or complete inability to perceive in any sense or form; said evidence. One would have to be completely psychotic (in the sense of being detached from reality) in order for this to be true for an individual.

"What ya'll are complaining about is that not everyone wears the label "Christian" and therefore the government can't endorse Christianity." I haven't seen anyone say that.

That's what it boils down to though. Atheists complained because a government institution (government schools) were endorsing a specific religious belief system. They were right and the correct changes were made. Yet many Christians disagree with the constitution and want a totalitarian Christian state. Want proof? Virtually none of those bemoaning the removal of Christian prayer from government schools are calling for instating Wiccan prayers or Hindu prayers in public schools.

As far as the "us vs. them nonsense"? "...and so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans; for not everyone belongs to the Faith!" 2 Thes. 3:2

Perfect example. You (apparently) want government schools to endorse Christian prayers and (apparently) label everyone else as abnormal and wicked. The facts of the matter is that many who pray Christian prayers are abnormal and wicked (do you follow current events?) and many who do not are not.

I personally don't disagree with everything you've said. I don't think anyone is talking about hating or abusing anyone, or endorsing "fundamentalist Christianity". Believing in a faith that disputes "anything goes"? Wishing for a culture that embraces Jesus Christ and His ways? You bet.

You are free to believe whatever you wish - and so is everyone else. That's the point. The founders fled Christian states fully understanding that state sponsored religion in any form is a recipe for oppression/disaster. That's why Jesus is never mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

And God will bring it about. I believe there's a purpose for the decline/falling away, as He works everything according to His will.

People are seeing through the facade of fundamentalist superstition and so naturally some sects of Christianity will see a decline.

Byron, I didn't say everyone who didn't pray Christian prayers were abnormal or wicked. I believe that's your assumption. I was addressing you saying "us vs. them nonsense". If you don't see there's a difference in believers and unbelievers, I probably can't fix that. It's all through the Book and IMO, God-revealed.

As far as further discussion on this matter, I believe I'll try to refrain. I really don't enjoy discussing when someone takes 1 +2 and adds it up to 4. You're mind's obviously already made up, and you also want to tell me what I think. If I can't just share my thoughts and them be taken as how I say and mean them, I really don't want to take the time and energy trying to keep correcting misapplied motives to what I'm saying.

It's fine, I still love you, I just don't want to engage in fruitless debates - especially when what I believe and say ends up being interpreted as something else. James.

You know I like to think big picture . When someone expresses ideas I try to see what the idea is like if followed through upon to it's implied goal. When we make statements bemoaning the absence of state sponsored prayer then I like to get to the heart of the matter - that's why I extend the ideas to their logical/illogical end. So I'm not really doing 1+2 = 4 but I'm filling in the unspoken gaps to fill out the equation.

Sorry for my generalizing and using your statements as a springboard to make my points. It's just how my mind works.

And my OCD mind works down to every jot and every tittle LOL - and if I feel I have to keep going back, clarifying, and re-laying the groundwork of what I was attempting to say, then I'll often opt out. When someone addresses me directly, I take it as directed at me. LOL. Forgive me as well.

I had written up some thoughts for clarification, because I do like to be clear (and taken on point, as well). I'll post this, as I believe it's a good summary for what I'd like to say, and hopefully any further wrangling on my part won't be necessary. Everyone has an understanding, a point of view.

It would be great to have one nation, under God. A nation and a people who's God is YHWH, Father of His son, Yesu.

Not where open worship is legally mandated, nor where it is condemned and outlawed; where it is encouraged, embraced, and permeates the culture and society. Laws can't ensure the latter, "the ideal". However, negative laws can discourage it and ban it, when those laws are allowed to exist and be enforced; when the hearts and minds of the people have grown cold and far from God.

It must come from the heart, and come from God moving amongst His people; intervening, and setting straight the crooked paths.

A good prayer and a contrite heart may be, that each of us would be a help and not a hindrance.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

People back then considered Satanism to be the complete opposite of Religion, at least as far as the general populace was concerned.

Exactly.So when you read the word religion in the constitution or documents of that time it simply meant Christianity.And certainly not satanism, islam etc.In other words the constitution grands zero rights to people of those religions.

Ok, I see what you're saying. Too bad they didn't spell it out as freedom of Christianity, though. lol

Their biggest fear [at least of people like John Adams]--seems to be a total lack of Christianity.

Their were a number of religions represented among the writers and signers of the Constitution. They were not all Christian. They did not all agree upon what Christianity is. They, therefore wanted to avoid the imposition of any particular 'brand' of religion upon the people- recognizing that many evils are done in the name of good. I've read Jefferson, most people would not define him as a Christian, he had some real problems with atonement-did not see the blood of Jesus as a propitiation for sin.The Pilgrims did not leave England to escape Catholicism, they were running from King Henry's oppressive and dogmatic Protestantism of the church of England.

I think the reason Islam is such a problem is that it seeks to establish an earthly kingdom by the power of man. If we do the same, we are resisting the Kingdom of God in the name of good, which we do in the impotence of reason and logic and morality - having a form of godliness and denying the power of it. Only the Spirit can save our nation, by the prayer and repentance of the intercessors, in the power of God by the manifestation of the truth. Salty salt is our only hope :o).

"So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplications, and for Your sake, O Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary. "O my God, incline Your ear and hear! Open Your eyes and see our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we are not presenting our supplications before You on account of any merits of our own, but on account of Your great compassion. "O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name." (Dan 9:13-19)

Really the whole problem is that we are ignoring the fundamentals of genuine truth to begin with.

We are trying to institute laws to ensure freedom, when freedom is the very lack of laws to begin with. Replacing laws (outward pressure) with love (inward pressure) to do good, and be good. That is why the Mosaic law could not save, because it was a set of laws, not a change of heart, which no form of law can do.

You can only perform under the institution of law, you cannot be. This includes our democratic institutions of law.