My thoughts on the Phillies season.

November 2008

Phillies add Koplove to bullpen

Champs reportedly add veteran right-handed reliever

By Robert Falkoff / MLB.com

Hopefully this move will help the team next year.

The Phillies aren’t resting on their World Series accomplishments. In a move that could eventually add depth to their 2009 bullpen, the Phils have agreed to terms with veteran reliever Mike Koplove, according to the Philadelphia Daily News.

Citing two sources familiar with the situation who confirmed the agreement, the Daily News said Koplove is likely to wind up at Triple-A Lehigh Valley, but will have an invitation to be in Clearwater, Fla., with the Major League club for Spring Training.

Koplove spent last season in the Dodgers’ system, going 2-1 with a 3.46 ERA for Triple-A Las Vegas.

Last year, the Phils made a relatively unheralded bullpen move in signing Chad Durbin, and Durbin wound up being a key factor in Philadelphia’s run to a World Series title. Koplove, 32, has only seven Major League appearances since 2005, but has pitched 254 2/3 innings in his career. (H/T Phillies.com)

Well, I’ll wait until spring training to see if this guy will actually help the team or not. But, if he does, how the Dodgers let him out of their minor league system I’ll never know.

Utley’s recovery remains 4-6 months

Hip surgery successful; Feliz’s back surgery also goes well

PHILADELPHIA — A day after surgery on his right hip, the prognosis for Phillies All-Star Chase Utley’s return remains at four to six months.

Providing further details, the Phillies said in a press release on Tuesday that the three-time All Star had surgery Monday morning to trim the labrum and a bony lesion in his right hip at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York.

Dr. Bryan Kelly performed the procedure, which was described as an “arthroscopic debridement.” Kelly said the surgery went well and the findings were consistent with the tests performed before the operation.

“Our early reports are that it was very successful surgery,” Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. said at Monday’s red-carpet premiere for the release of the DVD commemorating the 2008 World Series champions. “It was favorable.”

The team also provided a medical update for third baseman Pedro Feliz, who had a lumbar discectomy performed Nov. 20 by back specialist Dr. Robert Watkins in Los Angeles. That procedure also went well, and Feliz will return home to complete a rehabilitation program, which is expected to require eight to 12 weeks.

Utley’s return target date remains unclear. A six-month recovery would keep him out until June, though the four-month time frame could have him ready by Opening Day. With those extremes, the realistic approach might be looking late April or early May.

Through June 3, the All-Star second baseman was batting .321 with a .684 slugging percentage and was leading the Major Leagues with 21 home runs. He had become the early favorite for the National League Most Valuable Player Award. But after that, his production dropped, and he hit .272 with 12 homers.

“He’s strong and will come back and be fine,” reliever Ryan Madson said. “We don’t want him to rush back, though. We want him to be ready.”

Depending on Utley’s progression, the team may line up backup plans for a short-term replacement. Former Phillies Nick Punto and Tadahito Iguchi have been linked as possibilities. (H/T Phillies.com)

Good to hear that the opeartions on both Utley and Feliz went well. Okay, guys, especially you, Utley, take this time to fully recover. That would be best for both you and the team as a whole.

Utley undergoes hip surgery

Phillies hoping for quick recovery for All-Star

Hope to see you soon, Chase. Just take your time recovering from the surgery.

PHILADELPHIA — Phillies second baseman Chase Utley took the first step of what will be a grueling process to prepare for the 2009 season, when he underwent Monday morning surgery on his right hip.

The two-time All-Star had the procedure performed by Dr. Bryan Kelly at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York.

“Our early reports are that it was very successful surgery,” said Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. at the red-carpet premiere for the release of the DVD commemorating the 2008 World Series champions. “It was favorable.”

Amaro declined to elaborate on exactly how favorable, saying more will be known Tuesday, when he confers with head athletic trainer Scott Sheridan, Kelly and team physician Michael Ciccotti. The team is hopeful for a quick recovery, putting Utley in a uniform sooner than the worst-case scenario of the beginning of June.

Utley’s condition was distressing news last week to a team that celebrated its first World Series title since 1980. One of the team’s best hitters and one of its on-field leaders, Utley is a hard-nosed player who treats every play as if it’s his last.

Through June 3, the All-Star second baseman was batting .321 with a .684 slugging percentage and was leading the Major Leagues with 21 home runs. He had become the early favorite for the National League Most Valuable Player Award. But after that, his production dropped, and he hit .272 with 12 homers.

Utley hit just .220 in the postseason, with two home runs during the World Series. He constantly shrugged off speculation about his condition, always joking or smiling. His name popped up on the team’s internal injury report in mid-May, but Utley kept playing.

“That’s always tough news to hear, but he’s strong and will come back and be fine,” Ryan Madson said. “We don’t want him to rush back, though. We want him to be ready.” (H/T Phillies.com)

I’m also hoping for a quick recovery, but I hope that the doctors advice him to take it easy and allow to heal properly. I’m also hoping that its not as bad as all the reports last week have made it sound. Just hope that the worst case scenario is just that, a worse case scenario. Anyway, hoping for the best, but, as a typical Phillies fan, expecting the worst.

In 1883, Philadelphia, along with New York, would rejoin the eight-teams National League of Professional Baseball Clubs, or the National League, after the 1876 editions of both clubs, in the league’s first season of existence, were both expelled by the league for their refusal to participate in a late season western cities road trip. The new Philadelphia team, nicknamed the Quakers, would be brought into existance by former professional ballplayer and sporting goods manufacturer Al Reach, and his partner, attorney John Rogers, after the two men had successfully won the franchise rights of the now defunct Worcester (Massachusetts) Brown Stockings (also known as the Ruby Legs), which has gone bankrupt in 1882. Reach would become the team’s first president. The team’s first manager would be Bob Ferguson, who was, like Reach, a former professional ballplayer, as well as the former manager of the Troy (New York) Trojans, another disbanded team, whose franchise right would be bought by the New York Gothams (later the New York/San Francisco Giants). The Quakers would play their home games out of Recreation Park, which was located in North Philadelphia between 23rd and 25th Streets and Ridge and Columbia (now Cecil B. Moore) Avenues.

The Phillies’ opponents for its inaugural season, along with fellow newcomer, the New York Gothams, would be, by geographical order: Boston Beaneaters (1876 member); Providence (Rhode Island) Grays (1878 member); Buffalo (New York) Bisons (1879 member); Cleveland Blues (1879 member); Detroit Wolverines (1881 member) and Chicago White Stockings (1876 member). Of the other six teams, only Boston (now in Atlanta) and Chicago, along with the new teams from Philadelphia and New York (now in San Francisco), would still be playing in the National League.

The Quakers’ first game, which was also their first home game, would be played on May 1, 1883 against the Providence Grays. The game would end up as a 4-3 lost to the Grays. The Phillies would then play two more games with the Grays, followed by a three game series at home with the Beaneaters, all loses, including two games in which the opposition would score twenty or more runs against the Quakers, a 24-6 thumping by the Grays on May 3 and a 20-8 defeat by the Beaneaters on May 7, ending the team’s first home stand winless. After losing two straight games on the road to the White Stockings in Chicago, the Quakers would finally get the first victory in Phillies’ history, a 12-1 victory on May 14 against the White Stockings, thus ending the first losing streak in Phillies’ history at eight games. After winning their second victory over the Wolverines in Detroit, for the club’s first winning streak, the Quakers would lose the next two games in the series, quickly followed by a two-game split with the Blues in Cleveland before they would lose their three games series against the Bisons in Buffalo, including the first game in which the Phillies would be unable to score a single run, losing 4-0 on May 25, before winning the last game in the series on May 28, 3-2, thus ending its first road trip at 4-7. But before their next home stand, the Quakers’ manager, Ferguson, with a record of 4-13, would be fired by the owners, thus becoming the first Phillies manager to be let go. He would be quickly replaced by Blondie Purcell, a player on the Quakers’, thus becoming the team’s first player-manager. Sadly, the change in managers would not improve the team’s fortunes, as they would begin their next home stand, on May 30, losing the team’s first doubleheader, dropping both games to the White Stockings by the lopsided scores of 15-8 and 22-4. The team would then end their first month of existance by losing their third game in a row to the White Stockings by the score of 4-3, with a record for the month of 4-16.

June would begin just as badly for the Quakers as it would finish its first four game series by losing to the White Stockings 10-1. During the rest of the home stand, three more four games series with the Wolverines, Blues, and Bisons, the team would go 4-8, which would include the first game in which the Quakers would score 20 or more runs, a 20-4 drubbings of the Wolverines on June 6, which was also the team’s first home victory, as well as the team’s first shut out victory, a 2-0 win against the Bisons on June 14, ending the home stand at 4-12. The team would then go back on the road for two two-games series with the Beaneaters and the Grays and a single game series with the Gothams. The Quakers’ bad fortune would continue as they would lose the first six games of that road trip, including a 29-4 shlacking by the Beaneaters on June 20, before finally gaining another road victory, the team’s first shut out defeat of an opponent on the road, as they would defeat the Grays 4-0 on June 26, before losing the last two games of the road trip. The team would then come home to face the Gothams, losing the game 8-6, thus ending the month of June with a losing record of 5-18 and an overall record of 9-34, last in the league. Also in June, on the ninth, the NL would allow the Quakers to slash its ticket prices down to .25 cents, so that it would be able to compete with the more popular Philadelphia Athletics baseball club of the rival American Association, as the team’s home attendence would increase because of the decrease in ticket price.

In July, things doesn’t get any better for the ballclub, as the Quakers would lose two more games to the Gothams, the first one at Recreation Park, then the other in New York, before they begin a short four games home stand with the Grays and the Beaneaters. After winning a forfeit with the Grays (the actual score was 9-11 Grays) as the Grays had to leave town so that they could play a game with the Gothams in New York on that same day, the Quakers would get swept once again by the Beaneaters, including a game that they would play after the forfeited game with the Grays (both played on July 4). (The forefited game would also be the first series that the Phillies would win in the club’s history.) The Quakers would then spend the rest of the month on another ‘western’ road trip, which would include a five games series (their first) with the Blues, and three straight four games series against the Bisons, the White Stockings and the Wolverines. By the time they finally limp back home on August 4 to face the Gothams, the road trip would be a complete disaster, as they would only win three games of the seventeen games road trip, thus ending the month of July with a 3-17 record, while their overall season record would now be at 12-51, still in last place.

Back home, the Phillies would lose to the Gothams, before heading to New York to lose the next game. After coming back home to gain a victory over their fellow newcomer, they would go back to New York, where they would be swept in two games there. They would then be swept in two straight three games series by both the Beaneaters and the Grays, the two teams who were at this point fighting for the National League pennant. Among these loses would be a 28-0 drubbing at the hands of the Grays on August 21, the most lopsided shut out in the game’s history. The Quakers would then end the month playing three more games with the Gothams (one of which was played at Recreation Park) and two home games with the Grays, losing all five, thus ending the month of August with a 2-17 record and an overall record of 14-68.

The Quakers would spend the rest of the season playing at home, playing seventeen games with the Beaneaters (1), the Grays (1), the Gothams (2), the Blues (3), the Bisons (3), the Wolverines (4) and the White Stockings (3). The Quakers would go 3-13-1 in those games, which would include their third two-games winning streak, as they would win single games with the Grays, winning their second series, and the Gothams, get no-hit on September 13 by Hugh Daly of the Blues, losing 1-0, and be tied for the first time in the team’s history on September 22 with the Wolverines, as the two teams would play that day to a 6-6 tie. The Quakers would end its first season in the National League in last place with a 17-81-1 record, 23 games behind seventh place Detroit and 46 games behind the league’s champion, the Boston Beaneaters.

Against the rest of the league, the team would only have losing records in 1883: Beaneaters (0-14); Grays (3-11); Gothams (2-12); Bisons (5-9); Blues (2-12); Wolverines (3-11-1) and White Stockings (2-12), with its worst record being against the Beaneaters and its best being against the Bisons. They would be 3-7 in shut outs, 2-12 in 1-run games and 4-42 in blowouts.

In a 99 games season, the team would go to the plate a total of 3576 times (6th) while getting only 859 hits (7th) for a team batting average of .240 (8th), a team on-base percentage of .269 (8th) and a team slugging percentage of .320 (8th). The Quakers would score 437 runs (8th) on 299 RBIs. The team would get 181 2Bs (6th), 48 3Bs (6th) and 3 HRs (8th), while also receiving 141 walks (4th) as they struck out 355 (5th) times. Pitching wise, the Quakers had a Team ERA of 5.34 (8th), and in 99 games played, they had 91 complete games (2nd) with 8 other games finished by another pitcher, only 3 (8th) of which would be shut outs. In 864 innings pitched (5th), the team’s pitchers would give up 1267 hits (8th), allow 887 runs (8th) to score of which 513 were earned, give up 20 HRs (6th) and walk 125 batters (5th) and strike out only 253 (8th).

Individually, the team batting leader was Purcell with a .268 batting average, while Jack Manning would lead the team in slugging percentage with .364 and in on-base percentage with .300. Purcell would also lead the team with 425 at-bats, 70 runs scored, 114 hits and 88 singles, while Manning would also lead the team in total at-bats with about 470, 153 total bases, 31 doubles, and 37 RBIs. Other team batting leaders were: Sid Farrar in games played (99); John Coleman and Farrar in triples (8 each); Purcell, Bil McClellan and Emil Gross in home runs (1 each); Bill Harbridge in walks (24) and Coleman in strikeouts (39). In pitching, Coleman would also be the team leader in ERA (4.87), wins (12), loses (48), games pitched (65), innings pitched (538.3), strikeouts (159), games started (61), complete games (59), and shut outs (3).

After the season, Purcell would be replaced as the team’s manager with Harry Wright, another former professional ballplayer, and former manager of the second place Grays, and before that, the manager of the Beaneaters, leading that franchise to NL pennants in 1877 and 1878. It was hoped by both Reach and Rogers that he would turn the team’s fortune around.

Kaat’s career a study in consistency

By Jina Song and Craig Muder / National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum

I hope Jim Kaat will finally get his due and get elected to the Hall. There’s not too pitchers who hasn’t won at least 280 games and has not been elected. About time he got in.

Jim Kaat pitched in four different decades, making him one of the most durable hurlers in big league history.

He was also one of the most effective pitchers of the last 50 years and now will be considered for the Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee.

Kaat, born on Nov. 7, 1938, played for the Washington Senators/Minnesota Twins (1959-73), Chicago White Sox (1973-75), Philadelphia Phillies (1976-79), New York Yankees (1979-80) and St. Louis Cardinals (1980-83). A 6-foot-4 lefty with great athletic ability, Kaat pitched 25 seasons in the Majors and posted a 283-237 record with a 3.45 ERA and 2,461 strikeouts.

Kaat’s best season was in 1966, when he won a league-leading 25 games with 19 complete games, three shutouts, a 2.75 ERA and just 55 walks in more than 300 innings. The Sporting News named him American League Pitcher of the Year. His other top seasons were 1972, when he went 10-2 with a 2.07 ERA in a season shortened due to a broken hand, and 1974-75 with the White Sox, when he won 21 and 20 games.

A three-time All-Star (1962, ’66, ’75), Kaat also won 16 consecutive Gold Glove Awards from 1962 to ’77. He pitched in the postseason four times, winning a World Series ring with the Cardinals in 1982.

Kaat was the last original Washington Senators player to retire. Not only did Kaat log 200-plus innings 14 times (including 300-plus twice), but he had 180 complete games, including nine seasons with 10 or more.

Kaat will be considered for the Class of 2009 at the Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee as part of the post-1942 ballot (players who began their careers in 1943 and after). The other members of the post-1942 Veterans Committee final ballot are Dick Allen, Gil Hodges, Tony Oliva, Al Oliver, Vada Pinson, Ron Santo, Luis Tiant, Joe Torre and Maury Wills. Any player receiving at least 75 percent of the vote from the Veterans Committee, which consists of the 64 living Hall of Famers, will be enshrined at the Hall of Fame as part of the Class of 2009.

Results from the Veterans Committee vote will be announced Dec. 8 at baseball’s Winter Meetings in Las Vegas. (H/T National Baseball Hall of Fame.org)

As I said earlier, I hope he is elected in the Hall, and not just because he was part of the mid-70s Phillies’ team that won three straight NL Eastern Division pennants, but because he was a good pitcher he was a good pitcher who was also a good fielder. (Hey, he did win all of those Gold Glove Awards, remember?) Good, luck, Kaat, hope you get the call next month.

Mackanin named Phils’ bench coach

Perlozzo takes over as third-base coach on Manuel’s staff

PHILADELPHIA — Former Major League manager Pete Mackanin has been named bench coach, replacing Jimy Williams and rounding out manager Charlie Manuel’s coaching staff for the 2009 season.

Mackanin, 57, spent 2008 as a pro scout for the Yankees after replacing Jerry Narron and guiding the Reds for the final three months of the 2007 season as interim manager. The Reds went 41-39 (.513) under Mackanin’s watch, though he was replaced with Dusty Baker.

Mackanin also served as interim manager for the Pirates after Lloyd McClendon was dismissed with 26 games remaining in 2005. Mackanin has also coached with the Expos and Pirates. As a player, Mackanin appeared in 18 games for the Phillies in 1978-79.

Phillies deal Golson to Rangers

Texas outfield prospect Mayberry headed to Philadelphia

Blink, blink. Talk about something coming out of, pardon the expression, left field.

PHILADELPHIA — In an exchange of former first-round picks, the Phillies sent outfielder Greg Golson to the Rangers for outfielder John Mayberry.

Golson, selected in the first round of the 2004 First-Year Player Draft, spent the season at Double-A Reading and played in 106 games, hitting .282 with a .333 on-base percentage, 13 home runs and 23 stolen bases in 426 at-bats.

The 23-year-old was born in Austin, Texas, where he attended John Connally High School.

Mayberry, the son of former Royals first baseman John Mayberry, hit .264 with 20 home runs and 71 RBIs in 519 at-bats at Double-A Frisco and Triple-A Oklahoma. Texas selected him in the first round in 2005.

Golson made his Major League debut as a pinch-runner on Sept. 3 and stole a base. He then went hitless in six September at-bats. He made his first Major League start in the Phillies’ final regular-season game.

Mayberry was assigned to Triple-A Lehigh Valley and had his contract purchased by the Phillies, who added him to their 40-man roster. Philadelphia also added right-handed pitchers Carlos Carrasco and Drew Naylor, left-hander Sergio Escalona and catcher Joel Naughton to its 40-man, bringing it up to 37 players. (H/T Phillies.com)

Scratch head. To be honest, I have no idea why the Phils made this move, although Golson was unable to hit during his few at bats last year. I guess we’ll all know in a few years who really benefitted from this trade.

Allen’s bat stood out in a pitching-dominant era

Former slugger a Veterans Committee finalist for Hall of Fame

By Jina Song and Craig Muder / National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum

I’m not sure Allen is going to get elected, based on who else is on the ballot. My opinion, of course.

In an era dominated by pitchers, Dick Allen proved to be one of baseball’s best hitters.

And though his final numbers were clearly affected by the time in which he played, Allen’s body of work has won him a spot on the Veterans Committee ballot this fall at the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Allen, born on March 8, 1942, was known as one of the sport’s top right-handed power-hitters of the 1960s and early ’70s. Allen played for the Philadelphia Phillies (1963-69, 1975-76), St. Louis Cardinals (1970), Los Angeles Dodgers (1971), Chicago White Sox (1972-74) and Oakland Athletics (1977).

In 15 big league seasons, Allen clubbed 320 doubles, 79 triples and 351 home runs in 1,749 games. A third baseman and then a first baseman, Allen drove in 1,119 runs and scored 1,099.

In 1964, Allen was named the National League’s Rookie of the Year after hitting .318 with 29 home runs, 91 RBIs and 201 hits.

Allen earned 1972 Most Valuable Player honors after leading the American League in home runs (37), RBIs (113), slugging (.603) and walks (99). His .534 career slugging percentage was among the highest in an era marked by depressed offensive numbers.

A seven time All-Star, Allen was a three-time league leader in slugging percentage and extra-base hits and twice led his circuit in on-base percentage. He finished in the top five in slugging seven times and extra-base hits six times.

Allen was also a fierce baserunner and finished in the top 10 in steals twice.

Allen will be considered for the Class of 2009 at the Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee as part of the post-1942 ballot (players who began their big league careers in 1943 or later). The other members of the post-1942 Veterans Committee final ballot are Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva, Al Oliver, Vada Pinson, Ron Santo, Luis Tiant, Joe Torre and Maury Wills. Any player receiving at least 75 percent of the vote from the Veterans Committee, which consists of the 64 living Hall of Famers, will be enshrined at the Hall of Fame as part of the Class of 2009.

Results from the Veterans Committee vote will be announced Dec. 8 at baseball’s Winter Meetings in Las Vegas. (H/T National Baseball Hall of Fame.org)

Although Allen has good numbers, since he’s going up against such former players as Ron Santo, Luis Tiant, Joe Torre, Maury Willis and Al Oliver, many of whom he played against, I honestly don’t see him getting the nod in December. I guess we’ll all know one way or the other in December.

Utley to undergo hip surgery next week

Phillies star could miss Opening Day; Feliz should be ready

By Ken Mandel / MLB.com

So, he was playing hurt. Hey Utley, why didn’t you just say so, dude?

PHILADELPHIA — Chase Utley will have right hip surgery next week, a prodecure that could threaten his availability for Opening Day and deals the first blow to the World Series champions’ hopes of repeating.

Pedro Feliz is also scheduled to have surgery on his lower back on Thursday, and he will then complete an eight-week rehabilitation program. He should be ready for Spring Training.

Since the World Series ended, Utley has had several diagnostic studies on his right hip, which bothered him during the 2008 season. The lefty still managed to bat .292 in the second half, but his power numbers dipped noticeably. He had 53 extra-base hits, including 25 homers, in his first 94 games, but 25 extra-base hits (eight homers) in the final 65 games.

Utley hit .220 in the postseason overall, but .353 in the National League Championship Series against the Dodgers.

Team physician Michael Ciccotti at the Rothman Institute at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital and Dr. Bryan Kelly at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York both recommended surgery. The recovery will allow for the initiation of baseball activities after three to four months, though the total recovery time may be four to six months.

Feliz, 33, spent 26 days on the disabled list with lower-back problems and sought an offseason evaluation. Dr. Robert Watkins in Los Angeles will perform the surgery, which is scheduled to be a lumbar discectomy. (H/T Phillies.com)

Great, Utley is going to be out for a while after getting his right hip worked on. Sounds like Eric Bruntlett is going to be needed again.

Phils, WPHL sign three-year contract

Station to air 45 regular-season and three preseason games

To say that I am rather shocked to hear this announcement is an understatement. What did channel, correction, myphl17 offer the Phils to get them back?

PHILADELPHIA — The on-again, off-again relationship between the Phillies and WPHL-TV is on again, with the team and network agreeing to a three-year contract.

The Phillies and myphl17 announced Wednesday that the 2008 World champions will return to the network for at least the 2009-11 seasons. Under the pact, myphl17 will air 45 regular-season games and three preseason games. A complete broadcast schedule hasn’t been finalized.

The Phillies open the regular season Sunday, April 5, on ESPN2 against the Braves.

This marks the third partnership with WPHL-TV. The station first became the broadcast home for the Phillies from 1971-82, then again from ’93-98. The Phillies had been on UPN 57 since ’99, with the most recent three-year deal expiring after this season.

The bulk of Phillies games will continue to be on Comcast SportsNet.

“We’re ecstatic to welcome this Philadelphia institution back to our station,” vice president and general manager Vince Giannini said in a statement. “WPHL-TV was the home of the Phillies when they won their first World Championship in 1980, when they went to the World Series in 1993, and we’re very happy to welcome them back as the current World Series Champions.”

myphl17, the Philadelphia affiliate of MyNetworkTV and owned by Tribune Co., will also broadcast the weekly W.B. Mason “Behind the Pinstripes: A Phillies Magazine” before each Sunday Phillies broadcast.

The 30-minute magazine-style show is hosted by Scott Palmer and produced by the Phillies’ Emmy Award-winning videographer, Dan Stephenson, manager of video productions for the team. (H/T Phillies.com)

I still like to know how much money (Come on, why else would 17 be getting the Phils back for a third time if they weren’t able to outbid 57 for the broadcast rights) 17 offered the Phils to come back. Lets see, I’d have seen the Phillies now on local channels 6, 17, 29, 17, 57 and now 17 again. I’m just hoping that they stick around for more than three years on 17.

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