#40 Misconception: Women are asking for special treatment.

Women are not asking for special treatment when they ask you to stop doing sexist things that discourage them from participating in the skeptical community. Nope. Yet people accuse them of asking for special treatment all the time, which is unfair because it is not what they are doing. What is happening is that they are being singled out for special treatment, and they don’t like it, and they want the special treatment to stop.

Here are some (very broad) examples of the special treatment that women get when they participate in the skeptical community that men do not get:
1. Strangers put their hands on them.
2. They get interrupted.
3. Their ideas are ignored.
4. Their physical appearance is commented on.
5. They are propositioned–directly and indirectly–for sex.
6. Their gender is used as an insult.
7. They are personally attacked instead of being disagreed with.

Here are some (equally broad) examples of the regular treatment women would like when they participate in the skeptical community:
1. For strangers to keep their hands off of them.
2. To be allowed to speak all the way through until they’ve completed a thought.
3. To have their ideas considered without some guy having to repeat what they just said and get credit for it.
4. To have their ideas and contributions commented on instead of their appearances.
5. To not be propositioned–directly or indirectly–for sex outside of social environments, and then not by complete strangers.
6. To not have their gender flung around as an insult to them or to other people.
7. To have intellectual disagreements stay intellectual.

Women being singled out for special treatment is so pervasive that it just feels like regular treatment, but it’s only “regular” treatment for women. Generally men don’t treat each other like this (not even homosexual men in intellectual environments, when they might be interesting in dating some of the other men there). They refrain from the engaging with men in the kinds of behaviors that marginalize women’s ideas when women appear in spaces dominated by men. And because it’s mostly men in the skeptical community, that restraint is actually the regular behavior, and that kind of behavior allows people to be respected for their abilities, instead of relegating some people to (sexual) support positions.

When women ask that men stop engaging in the behaviors that marginalize their ideas, all they are asking for is that men interact with them the same way that they interact with each other. That’s it. Honestly, people should be grateful for this. The way men go on and on about how women want special favors and are asking for all this extra stuff and it’s just so many things to keep track of and it just makes skepticism that much harder to perform is kind of a mess of their own making. By cultivating a set of behaviors they pull out only when women are around they are making skepticism more complicated and trickier because they’ve got all the regular behaviors to keep track of on top of these special behaviors they use for women. By eliminating the special behaviors they’d have only one set of social rules to have to remember, and everyone can concentrate harder on accomplishing the goals of the skeptical movement. Wouldn’t that be nice?

Of course, if you want very much to keep women from fully participating because you really, really like those special behaviors you get to engage in around them, like touching strange women and reserving the right to ask them for sex at any time–and that may be important to you–you ought to fight for those privileges with the right arguments. Come up with a reason for why it helps skepticism to maintain two standards of behavior within the movement instead of whining about how women want special treatment when they actually want no special treatment. It would be a better demonstration of your rational faculties and critical thinking skills and would make you look like a better skeptic. Better person, though? Maybe not.

As a man, I feel I need to try to let you know something about men. We do not draw a definite line between men and women and in how we treat people based upon which side of the line they are on. For example, I will attempt to break this down for you in a man on man interactions, as opposed to your man on woman.

1. Strangers put their hands on them.

Not sexually, but men do put their hands on other men, even strangers, either for aggressive reasons, or bonding reasons.

2. They get interrupted.

Men interrupt other men. Quite often. And far more rudely than we do with women.

3. Their ideas are ignored.

This happens to all men as well. A good idea is a good idea, a bad idea is a bad idea, but sometimes men, and women, mistake one for the other. Maybe your idea was bad, but you did not see or realize that, and he did. Or perhaps your idea was good, but he failed to recognize that.

4. Their physical appearance is commented on.

Men will do this to men as well, but not to the extent that they do it to women. And while you are often commented on for beauty or sexuality, men will call each other out if they see a problem with another man’s appearance.

5. They are propositioned–directly and indirectly–for sex.

Same here, but not as a serious proposition, more as an insult, intimidation, establishing dominance, etc.

6. Their gender is used as an insult.

Men are far more harsh on other men for their perceived lack or insufficient amount of masculinity.

7. They are personally attacked instead of being disagreed with.

Again, not nearly the extent that men do to other men. A common example, being called a retard, dumb*** (not sure of the language tolerance here), f***ing idiot.

I completely understand your sensitivity to this, but trust me, for the most part, are so much worse to each other than they are to women. There was a book about this, although I can’t remember the title or the author, where a lesbian woman dressed convincingly like a man and went undercover within a group of men for a year or so. She later stated she had no idea how difficult it was to be a man.

I suspect the difference is women are more sensitive about these things than men. I do not mean this in an insulting way. Rather, its something men have learned to deal with, kinda like you learned to live with your periods.

But to elaborate on the reason your ideas are dismissed, sometimes it is also because the situations your ideas are rejected for are in areas where you are not believed to be experienced in. I hate to use these examples, but they do illustrate my point somewhat.

If there is a mechanical problem with an appliance or a car, men will seek another man’s advice or ideas. If it is regarding redecorating or cooking or fashion, men will prefer a women’s advice.

You might try to keep two things in mind. First, with a man, every person they meet needs to prove themselves to him. Every person, to every man. You need to earn trust and respect, they are not just given.

And second, men are less cruel to women, believe it or not, than they are to men. Obviously, there are exceptions, like domestic violence. But for the most part, men feel it is their duty to protect women, and also, we always have hope that you will sleep with us, so we need to be nicer to you than we are to each other.

One problem with feminism, in my opinion, is that women now look at themselves too much like they are always victimized by men, and this is just not the case. Women are not considered fair game to most men. You are seen as off limits. For example, men are far more likely of being victims of violence in their lives than women. But women are told that they are the ones in danger.

Sorry this was so long, but I felt the need to respond. To try to simplify my point, women are treated equal in areas where they feel mistreated, because men mistreat each other a lot. And second, whether or not you ask for special treatment, it is given to you, because you are seen as off limits and because we want to sleep with you.

I’m not really interested in how men treat each other. If you think men are bad to each other and need to be nicer, you should explain to other men what to do, not women. Also, even though you are telling us things as a man, how women feel about what men do to them is not really something a man can be an expert on.

men feel it is their duty to protect women, and also, we always have hope that you will sleep with us, so we need to be nicer to you than we are to each other.

…

whether or not you ask for special treatment, it is given to you, because you are seen as off limits and because we want to sleep with you.

If men feel it is their duty to protect us, they have a mistaken feeling, and if you are always hoping that we will sleep with you and if that is why you are nice to us, then you are causing huge problems and dismissing us as people in favor of viewing us as sex. Which is the whole point of this blog that you seem to have missed.

One problem with feminism, in my opinion, is that women now look at themselves too much like they are always victimized by men, and this is just not the case.

You, as a man with your opinions who has just said twice that men view women as sex and will always be given special treatment because of that and that men are nice to them to make getting sex from them easier, really aren’t in a position to speak about the problems of feminism. Rather, you are living proof of the kinds of problems women face and an example of what we are fighting against, and I don’t think you realize it.

KJ: “Men are far more harsh on other men for their perceived lack or insufficient amount of masculinity.”

Yes. And female gendered insults are often used to disparage men.

“I suspect the difference is women are more sensitive about these things than men. I do not mean this in an insulting way. Rather, its something men have learned to deal with, kinda like you learned to live with your periods.”

You are expressing a sexist attitude, and this has a negative impact on women.

“If there is a mechanical problem with an appliance or a car, men will seek another man’s advice or ideas. If it is regarding redecorating or cooking or fashion, men will prefer a women’s advice.”

Karen you an example of what KJ is saying because you got all deffencive that he was talking about his piont of view. If you two had met face to face your would have cut him off mid-sentence. I would also like to say as a girl with brothers that guys are more durrect and to the piont then women and i prefur that over the way women beat around the bush and complain, tho not to say at times that they are hurtful but i can just tell them that.

1. I didn’t get “all defensive.”
2. You have absolutely no reason to believe that I would cut him off in real life. I didn’t even cut him off here.
3. I was pretty direct and to the point, and didn’t beat around the bush at all, so I’m not sure what your point is by bringing up a comparison about how some men and some women communicate. I told KJ exactly where he was causing problems.
4. Not all points of view about feminism are useful. Here’s more about that: https://morewomeninskepticism.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/25-not-every-perspective/

Karen: Who cares if you did or didn’t get defensive? You’d be allowed to.

Lucy: Uh oh. The ol’ “men are direct and women are bitchy” chestnut.

The first thing that you’ll note as you look around more and more is that men can go behind backs about social issues just as much as women can, and that women can be as upfront and direct as men can be. It just depends on the person and the situation. On the other hand, if you truly observe that more men than women are confrontational with their opinions, and more women than men are indirect about their opinions or feelings, then a good question to ask yourself is, “Why is that? Is there a reason that I’m seeing more women than men voicing their opinions in an indirect, non-confrontational manner?”

Prepared for what? Prepared for being treated as a person instead of a potential sex partner in professional settings? For being paid the same amount for a job or getting promoted/pay raises as often? For not being judged on my appearance all the time? Stuff like that? Sure! Can’t wait.

By the way, I watched the film G.I. Jane yesterday and I recommend it. It’s a film about the first woman entering Navy SEALS training.

To be accepted as a part of the group she didn’t want special treatment and double standards! After a while and a lot of talking to the instructors, she really did get the same treatment as the other soliders – including the torture part of the training. But during the torture training most of the instructors couln’t watch HER being tortured, simply because they thought a woman’s pain was worse than a man’s. Again, double standards/ special treatment which she didn’t like.

Is the idea that a woman’s life is worth more than a man’s ready to be put away now?

“Is the idea that a woman’s life is worth more than a man’s ready to be put away now?”

Euroman: tell that to all the women and girls who get acid thrown in their faces for trying to get an education, to all the women I know who were raped and beaten by the men who “love” them and then blamed for it by family and friends because they were “asking for it”, to all the female babies abandoned or killed because of the preference for sons, to all the girls who are murdered by their fathers over “honor”, to all the girls who have their genitals mutilated for “tradition”, to all the women who’ve been brainwashed into thinking they’re evil and inferior by every fucking religion on the planet (including Buddhism!), I could go on but if you don’t get the picture then you are completely clueless.

There is macho culture and the point of feminism isn’t that women just join in with macho culture where men treat each other like shit, but to build a society where all people are equal and treat each other humanely. You think YOU are the standard for what is human, and women have to conform to that. Which is bullshit.

@Karen, when KJ says “are you really prepared?”
it’s basically a veiled threat of violence. I hear that shit all the time: if you want to be equal with men, be prepared to be beaten up. He’s admitting that patriarchal males “protect” women the same way that the mafia protects small businesses. It’s a protection racket.

And I’m sure, KJ, that skeptic conferences just erupt into violent melees all the time.

I like the fact that this post is about how women don’t want special treatment, and I agree with the premise, but the post and the comment section leave me with a very bitter taste and disgusted. What’s more, even the two women I’ve shown this post to share my views. It’s pretty much what makes up feminism these days. Not the women’s rights movement led by brave, strong women like Susan B. Anthony who fought hard, faced prison and finally started bringing about gender equality.

Not that feminism, but the one that emphasizes and deepens the cleavage and differences between men and women, the one that regards all men with equal amounts of enmity, since they are all evil bastards, who have nothing good worth mentioning and are driven solely by sex, as evidenced by your reactions towards KJ, who expressed his point politely and rationally while trying to avoid sounding sexist (he made a few false steps, though), and EuroMan; whenever a man disagrees with a woman, you completely dismiss any reasoning behind it and consider it as stemming invariably from their sexism and charge him headlong.

Judging from this post, I can see another characteristic of modern feminism: sexism can only come from men, but never from women. If this were a post about women’s idiosyncrasies, every woman would have fired all weapons and started complaining about women-bashing. Instead, this post portrays men as rude, primitive apes, which is oh so typical of modern-day feminism: it is always right to assume men are in the wrong, with no exceptions. It’s a weird logic, based on the idea that men are all the same, that all have the urge to oppress women, and deserve to be told off. In fact, women are only using their historical right to fire back at men for oppressing them in the past, right? [sarcasm.jpg]

Also, I don’t even know where to begin pointing out the errors you made, as your post, despite having a good premise, is flawed from start to finish. I’ll make an attempt, though. Oh, and before you start reading the following, just disregard my gender completely; make an effort to read these as though they come from a neutral, asexual voice rather than a male; it will greatly reduce the risk of you mistaking them as woman-bashing.

For a start, what exactly do you want when you say you don’t ask for “special treatment”? Or better yet, what do you understand by “equal treatment”? Now, let me try to deduce what you said from your post.

“Generally men don’t treat each other like this [….] They refrain from the engaging with men in the kinds of behaviors that marginalize women’s ideas when women appear in spaces dominated by men.” Here’s you, making a statement about how “men interact with each other”.

“When women ask that men stop engaging in the behaviors that marginalize their ideas, all they are asking for is that men interact with them the same way that they interact with each other”. Here’s you, requesting that men treat women like they would treat another man.

And here’s KJ saying “As a man, I feel I need to try to let you know something about men”, which you promptly shut down by saying you aren’t interested in how men treat each other ….. What?! So, let’s see: you want men to treat women like they would each other, but you’re not interested in knowing how men treat each other ….What??! Does that make any sense to you? Sense — your statements make none. Either you have misrepresented the way men treat each other, or you actually want special treatment. I’ll let you be the judge of that.

1. Strangers put their hands on them.

Okay, I understand it’s about strangers touching women, and I agree there’s brutish creeps out there who have no manners whatsoever and touch woman; that is perfectly condemnable, but ask yourself this: are ALL men like this? Does EVERY man do this? Do you actually believe every man walks up to women they don’t know and start groping or touching them? How many men actually do this? If you’re going to say “most”, it means you really hate men and really picture them in dire colours. Unfortunately, it is because of such perceptions that, if a guy accidentally touches a woman at the workplace, then he must be immediately arrested and registered as a sex offender. Oh, this never happens by accident? All men do it on purpose and deserve getting put in arrest? Right, I forgot: men = bad, women = good.

2. They get interrupted.

Fine. So what does that have to do with sexism, or special treatment? You think men never interrupt each other? Go back to KJ’s post; you’ll see it plainly written that men interrupt each other; going back to the special treatment thing, men shouldn’t treat women any differently, so just as men interrupt men, so do men interrupt women.. See? That’s modern feminism again: if a man interrupts a woman, then it must be because she is a woman and he is a sexist jerk trying to oppress a woman.

Here’s an even better one for you: do women never interrupt men? Please! If anything, men often complain about women not listening to whatever they have to say. Oh wait, I forgot: they don’t have anything worthwhile to say, and they often talk BS. Men = bad, women = good.

3. Their ideas are ignored.

Again, what does this have to do with sexism and special treatment? I, for one, never ignore someone’s idea based on their gender or whatnot. I ignore their ideas if they are stupid. You’re referring to situations where men don’t listen to women’s advice? I’ll agree with you on that one, but it works both ways: how often do women listen to a man’s advice when it comes to cooking, interior design or artistic activities? And KJ is right: men do need to prove themselves and are under the pressure of demonstrating their worth; aren’t there enough women who dismiss men as useless louts if they don’t prove themselves capable of tackling certain issues on their own? Wait, I forgot, it’s okay if women do this. Men = bad, women = good.

4. Their physical appearance is commented on.

I’m not sure exactly what you meant here, so I’ll try to give a more comprehensive comment. Men comment on each other’s appearances as well, *sometimes* even in public (which I agree, is rude); going by the equal treatment thing, what is wrong with commenting on a woman’s physical appearance? Perhaps you are referring to those situations where men make judgments based on a woman’s beauty or not (e.g. “Damn, that girl’s fine!”), then I’m sorry, but that’s a guy thing, and we have the right to make such comments, just like women do. Women comment on men’s physical appearance as well; girls I’ve known actually gave their male colleagues scores and kept ranks. Even more so, women are more judgmental than men when it comes to appearances. If you mean to tell me that women never actually make any comments on men’s appearances, you’d be mistaking me for an idiot. Oh wait, how silly of me! I forgot again, men = bad, women = good.

5. They are propositioned–directly and indirectly–for sex.

Okay, this one is complicated, and you have a good point here. Sometimes, men push things too far; it is indeed sad to see men treat women like sex objects. Yet again, this is no reason to assume all men hold the same views. Are all women materialistic, money-grubbing gold diggers who only care about the bank account, car parked in the garage and social status? After all, if

Oops! Sorry, I was changing the subject. Back to men If you’re referring to situations like a boss hitting on an employee, or a shopkeeper making veiled sexual advances to a customer, I agree with you completely. Still, there’s those situations (you’ll really hate me for this) when women ask for it if, say, they dress in very ‘revealing’ clothes (guess what–some women I know think the same way).

Let me put it this way: nobody can tell me what to wear, but if I go to a dangerous neighbourhood at night wearing expensive clothes, a valuable watch on my hand which I check every ten minutes and a fancy phone I flash every minute or so, I’m sure to draw some unwanted attention which may result in a robbery. Legally, I am in the right, but there’s no denying it’s my fault; I knew I had it coming. It’s the same with women; if you dress in clothes that make you look sexy, there will surely be men who will misrepresent your intentions.

Oh my, I just figured it out: women aren’t suppose to care about that and take any responsibility! It is the horny men who must swallow it up and refrain from making any remarks. And even if it is women who happen to make such propositions, they are actually making a compliment and men should be flattered! Oh my, oh my, men = bad, women = good.

6. Their gender is used as an insult.

I guess this is the only point listed I fully agree with. It does sadden me when men use “woman” as an insult, just like it saddens me to see feminists seeing in men the personification of all that is primitive, self-centered and uncivilized.

7. They are personally attacked instead of being disagreed with.

Once more, what does this have to do with sexism? You think personal attacks are reserved for women only? Or that only men use personal attacks? This observation can be made for the whole of mankind, not just one gender. Even more so, whenever there’s posts written by men pointing out inconsistencies commonly attributed to women, the comment sections will roar with women attacking the writer personally as being insecure, frustrated, unmanly, narrow-minded etc. I didn’t attack you in any way, neither did the other two guys who commented here.

In short, if you want men to treat women like they treat each other (like you said you wanted), first make sure you understand what that means; that implies both enjoying the benefits of equal footing, and facing the rigors men face. Most of the observations you made are applicable to members of both genders, not exclusively men.

Also, to touch on another comment of yours: “Prepared for what? Prepared for being treated as a person instead of a potential sex partner in professional settings? For being paid the same amount for a job or getting promoted/pay raises as often? For not being judged on my appearance all the time?”.

What if I told you, there’s cases of guys who do the same job as their female coworkers and get paid less? What if I told you, women get paid less because they often work less or take lesser jobs so they can care for their children? What if I told you, most girls I knew in college got hired faster and more easily than the guys I graduated with (and when I asked them, none of them said they were paid less)? What if I told you, sometimes men will think of you as a sex partner even outside professional settings, because that’s the way things work: men are attracted to women, and it’s pure instinct here, just like fear is.

Men can’t help it. They’re much more sensitive to visual stimuli than you’d think. Of course, it’s true, as mentioned above, that that doesn’t give them the right to behave boorishly, but then again, you can’t ask them to NOT be attracted to you. If, even after they get to know you better, they still think of you only as a sex object, then you may have a case. Judging by the rest of your post, however, I doubt it.

@qvaken: I find your attitude ironic. If women weren’t as sensitive, why would they be affected by EuroMan’s words? Your response in itself, immediately pulling out the ‘sexist’ card, is ironic. Ironies aside, there’s certainly differences between men and women that are not inherent, but come from upbringing; men are generally taught to hide their emotions, and women have more emotional support. Funny how women sometimes verbally abuse their spouses and dismiss their hurt feelings, while the same treatment, applied to them, causes a nuclear reaction.

@gracemargaret: What men mean by that is that, if you want equal rights and hit someone, yet hiding behind the old “you can’t hit me, I’m a woman” excuse, then expect to be treated ‘equally’.

Also, in your response to EuroMan, you mentioned a lot of examples that were common in the past and are now localized in some areas where the cultures are still hostile towards women, and I fully support women’s rights campaigns in those regions. Still, there were also oh so many Afro-American men that were denied education and the basic rights simply because they were black; moreover, there were those radical groups like the KKK that took a homicidal stance to them. So, using that logic, in a hostage situation, whose release would you negotiate first between an Afro-American and a woman?

1. For a start, I’m not protesting. I’m merely stating an opinion. Yes, it was a long response; I could have given a short, half baked answer, but I wanted to go in-depth. As a matter of fact, a lot of my comments on blog posts and the like tend to be pretty long as I tend to go in-depth with my opinions. Also, there’s the free speech thing; it took me over 2000 words to write that comment; so what? I spoke my mind. I’ll use as many words as I need to make sure I fully express my opinion clearly and in such a way to avoid misunderstandings.

2. “Doth not protest too much”. I read your post, I understand what you said, but it is indeed a poor choice of words for the title. “Doth not protest too much” a.k.a. I should just accept what you said or, if I can’t give a similar sized answer, I shouldn’t post my opinion? Using that logic as the standard, anyone can write something short, but untrue, and when someone posts a much longer reply, the latter is trying to drown out the former with a torrent of words.

3. You still haven’t addressed the points I’ve made. You merely referred to the number of words, and judging by the blog post, it would seem that you’re trying to discredit my points since “The longer the blog comment, the less likely the commenter has anything productive to contribute or is even directly engaging in the point.” If there’s anything off with what I wrote, by all means, it is your blog, feel free to tell me straightforwardly the rubbish parts of my comment. Mind you, in my comment, I only tackled the ideas; I didn’t attack you or any other user in any way. Still, I take it you didn’t even read through my reply and dismissed it perhaps as some senseless rant.

You used 2200 words not just to tell me that I’m wrong, but to tell me in great detail how wrong I am. You aren’t engaging me; you are lecturing me and proving to me how much more you know about what it’s like to be a woman in skepticism than this woman in skepticism knows. (Now I’m just gratuitously prodding you–Mansplaining!) If you came to this site because you wanted to know how to attract more women to active participation in the skeptical movement, your job here is to listen to my ideas and think about them–not argue back. If your ideas worked, more women would be in skepticism. If you’re job here is to just shut down new ways of approaching this obvious problem of demographics, then by all means keep replying.

But I’m not going to address the points you made. You think I’m wrong. OK. Read another blog then. If you’d read the About page, you’d know that I’m putting out some ideas about recruiting women based on my experience. If you don’t think they are valid, don’t put my suggestions into practice. I’m not arguing with people. The end.

Huh, I am astonished. No, really, I’m not being sarcastic or ironic or whatever. I really am astonished and disheartened. Oh well, I suppose I should just clarify a few last things before I’m done. This is obviously not a place for me to lurk about, and your attitude is, well, less than constructive, to say the least.

1. I used 2230 words to explain my opinion because I actually thought it through and wanted to give all the arguments I based it upon, instead of just hurling gratuitous accuses, pointing my finger and saying “NOOOO!! You’re wrong!!”. It is what I believe to be proper behavior, both online and in real life.

2. I’ll ask you to note that throughout my comments I focused solely on the ideas you laid out in this post, and not on you as a person. Also, please don’t twist my words; I’m not lecturing you on “how much more I know what it’s like to be a woman in skepticism” than yourself. I had no interest and no intention of doing so. I was simply offering you a different perspective on the topic of sexism and special treatment – a man’s perspective – in response to what I perceived as a blatantly biased, one-sided view on sexism, as I believe there’s at least two sides to any issue.

More specifically, what I wanted to point out was that both men and women can make mistakes when it comes to sexism. And generally, I believe the prevailing view should be “men and women” – which is constructive, and aims at helping the two genders be on equal footing and support each other as would be normal, and not “men versus women”, which is conflictual and stresses the differences and antagonisms between the two genders.

What irked me, was the lack of willingness to accept any other point of view and contributions that differ from the ideas in the post.

3. I confess I didn’t particularly search for how to attract more women in the skeptical movement, and landed here by accident. Also, about the “your job here is to listen to my ideas and think about them–not argue back”.

My job, in general, not only here, is to question everything that is being fed to me. If I spot flaws or feel I have a counter-argument to something, I won’t hesitate from making it known. Isn’t that the very essence of skepticism? I believe it is from the clash of such divergent opinions that constructive ideas are born.

If it is expected of me to accept and agree with the ideas outlined here instead of arguing back when I feel there is something off about it, then it is clear that this is no place for me, as I am certainly not part of your target audience.

4. I don’t intend to shut anyone or anything down. I didn’t intend to start an argument and run down your ideas. As you may have noticed, when I thought you made a good point, I agreed with it. I was, in fact, looking forward to a rational, open-minded debate on the topic. It seems I was mistaken. It saddens me to see that there is little inclination here for constructive dialogue. And you’re right, I hadn’t read the About page, as I would’ve known that not even rational, fallacy-free arguments would make you reconsider your position. Well, that’s your opinion, and it’s your right to embrace whatever values you want.

If it is expected of me to accept and agree with the ideas outlined here instead of arguing back when I feel there is something off about it, then it is clear that this is no place for me, as I am certainly not part of your target audience.

Nothing is expected of you, or of any reader. I am offering ideas about how to increase the number of women in skepticism based on my own experiences. People who don’t share this goal are not part of my target audience. If you aren’t looking for suggestions about how to do that, then this is not the place for you.

I offer advice. One ignores advice or one takes advice. One does not argue with advice. Or maybe one takes from it what one finds valuable and leaves the rest. Debate doesn’t enter into it. Rational, fallacy-free arguments don’t enter into it. I’m not going to read long dissertations about why my advice isn’t useful. I will read explanations of strategies you’ve tried for increasing the number of women in skepticism and summaries of those results, but you haven’t offered any.

If you have better ideas than mine, start your own handy guide. Then people can choose between them based on whose advice gets the best results.

I was simply offering you a different perspective on the topic of sexism and special treatment – a man’s perspective – in response to what I perceived as a blatantly biased, one-sided view on sexism, as I believe there’s at least two sides to any issue.

I didn’t read all of Praetorian’s 3,169 words – probably because I’m an angry and disrespectful feminist who hates men and who thinks that woman = good and man = bad – but for those playing at home, he’s just given you a 101 (or should I say, 3,169) lesson in denying female oppression and maintaining patriarchy.

It all probably sounds familiar to you – that’s because these attitudes are around us constantly, on TV and in advertising, in literature, in history books, in news presentation, all over the internet, and via socialisation they are deeply ingrained in our language and psychology. Despite these attitudes being all-encompassing and pervasive in our culture, and despite this pro-male, woman-degrading perspective being well-known to us all, every now and again a special and unique flower of a man will feel indignant at the reckless sharing of a woman’s voice, and will spring forth to imbue all those present – but ESPECIALLY those dang uppity laydeez – with his special and unique male perspective (“opinion”).

Yes, he’s never heard complaints from women before, men receive the same treatment anyway so why are you talking about the problem as though it’s gendered, you’re just sexist if you don’t discuss men as though they’re victims too, you’re just sexist if you don’t include a disclaimer about how not ALL men do these bad things, even his two female friends had the same reaction to your opinion as he did, perhaps you don’t realise what it’s like to be a man, perhaps you don’t realise how men interact with each other, he must warn you that men will harm you if you demand to be shown the same respect that men are shown, he must warn you not to come across as though you hate [wonderful, glorious] men, fighting against men to stop them from fighting against women makes you a hypocrite, he approves of some styles of feminism but yours is inappropriate, you’re hurting feminism, why do you write your blog about things that you believe in rather than about things that he believes in, why aren’t you reacting the way he would like you to, why aren’t you respecting his “opinion” (where the way in which “respect” is expressed is defined by him and subject to change), why are you dismissing his “opinion”, you obviously haven’t read his words and you MUST read them (all 3,169 of them), you obviously just hate men.

Also, your statement that women deserve to be treated by men in the same way that men are treated by men is just SCREAMING for the unique male perspective, in full detail and in warning-style, on how men treat each other, so it’s only natural for a unique special flower of a man to offer said long-winded explanation to you. If you say you don’t care about his unique male perspective on the topic, then you’re being confusing! What is it that you laydeez WANT from us men, anyway?!?

Let’s just be glad that neither of the mansplainers had toddler-aged daughters. ALWAYS with the toddler-aged daughters, and how they understand the female experience because they have ’em.

How should these discussions happen differently: WOMEN get to talk instead. Men don’t get to speak, and certainly don’t get to share a disproportionate 3,169 words doing so. Men recognise that women ALREADY KNOW these oh-so-important gems of male-centric information that they’re JUST DYING to share. Women get to share our opinions and our thoughts and our experiences, COMPLETELY DEVOID of any and all pressure from men. Women contribute to, and work towards, solutions that will benefit WOMEN. Men recognise that culture and society already centre around them, and that they are already fine. Men don’t complain.

@qvaken: You REEK of man-hating; in fact, I think I can accurately intuit your tone of voice in each of your sentences. You clearly think men are inherently vicious, heartless, inconsiderate bastards who feel entitled to oppress women. It is also worrying that you think that, by not reading all of the replies in their entirety, you are being ‘independent’ and ‘strong’, stating your point and standing up to yourself. Nope, that’s just plain rude, narrow-minded, irrational behavior, regardless of gender. Your reply itself is illogical. Fine, you win, just state what exactly you want. You want to be treated like men would treat other men? There you have it above, detailed explanations on how men treat other men. Oh, you don’t care about how men treat other men? Good; define what you expect. “Men don’t get to speak”. Aha, so men should just shut up and listen, since only women’s opinions matter and they’re indubitably right.

Praetorian, KJ and the others posted much more balanced views, such as they are, than either you or Karen did. They both posted very long replies indeed, as most ironically did you. So what, does that make their points any less valid? In other words, if someone says, “The Sun revolves around the Earth”, and you proceed to give him/her a detailed scientific explanation of why he or she is wrong, does that mean your point is invalid because you wrote too much?

It is obvious that women like yourself have scores to settle with ‘men’, who are collectively responsible for all the evil did in the world; if, say, one man slaps a woman across her face, then ALL men are to be put to shame and punished. If a woman slaps a man across the face, he shouldn’t complain, because he doesn’t have the right to do so, since the guy before him, whom he has nothing to do with, slapped another woman, so basically, things are even.

And in truth, you actually don’t want equality, but rather ‘free punches’ i.e. the right to ‘strike back’ at the evil men in all their numbers, for all the evil they caused, to even the score and bring balance not by rational speech, but by one-sided, biased views in the vein of “Women contribute to, and work towards, solutions that will benefit WOMEN”. Not society in its entirety, but WOMEN. What’s funnier, is that a lot of the legal and social norms are geared in women’s favor.

Take a look at Jon Cryer’s case: his ex-wife was arrested for child abuse, has frequently been in rehab, and didn’t let him visit the child, yet still keeps custody and gets alimony from Cryer. Take a look at rape: if a woman is raped, all men must die, but if a man is raped, it’s immensely funny. Take a look at work: if a woman stays at home with the child while a man goes to work, it’s a normal family; if it’s the other way around, then the woman is exploited. Damn, lazy bastard, why isn’t he going to work? Heck, I could start a whole list of both legal and social double standards that work against men.

Not saying there isn’t a problem with inequity towards women, ’cause there certainly is, and it must be taken care of. But the attitude of those like you towards it makes me sick. I dread to think what becomes of the male children born to those like you; I feel sorry for them, for I suspect that, by the time they reache adulthood, they will certainly have been completely depersonalized, and their genitals will have morphed into those of a woman. Of course, you’ll say that I’m woman-bashing with this last statement. Whatever, you can unleash the shitstorm if you like.

As a man I must say if these were my biggest complaints (older women DO grab on me etc and men are ALWAYS being broken down by their boss etc)–I’d be a happy man indeed. Sorry sugar but your equal rights came with equal responsibilities. You can’t have it both ways..the entire world of man will NOT change just to suit your feelings that might not even be rationally sound feelings in the first place.

I have to side with the men in this argument; while they might be considered patronising, they have endeavoured to maintain an element of dispassion. Much as it might surprise you, men and women are different; there is a visual clue in their bodily construct.

The original argument was that women should be treated by men as men treat other men; later, Karen shows her belief in this by dismissing KJ with: “I’m not really interested in how men treat each other.” Without that knowledge, how can you achieve the original principle? Maybe you just want phallically-free argument… (That pun has been lying around here, just WAITING for someone to pick it up!)

“Men feel it is their duty to protect women…”; a mistaken feeling, apparently. But it is probably the result of 5 million years of evolution. Humans are not the only species where the male can go to quite extraordinary lengths to defend the female(s). Or are these other species also “sexist” and in need of correction? The males protect the group, and hunt, usually away from the home; the females provide nurture, and gather, closer to the home. If the male fails in protection (i.e. is overcome by the adversary), the females prove to be doughty fighters in their own right, particularly if there are young involved; if the male fails in the hunt (i.e. does not bring home the bacon), the female provides sustenance with what has been gathered. The communication levels required for fighting and hunting are completely different from those for nurturing and gathering; this could be why women tend to be better in those jobs that require patience and empathy while men tend to be better at more physical, less verbose tasks – the man builds the house, the woman furnishes it. Individually, each sex has its own limitations – together, we can conquer a world!

I have seen men interacting with one another, and been astounded at the casual callousness, all of which is carried with a certain grace and camaraderie; I have seen women introduced to this environment, to see them quickly break down in tears. Women together can be amazingly raucous and cruel, and when a man is introduced into their world, can show even greater cruelty, often resulting in humiliating subjugation. The way that both Karen and qvaken rounded on Lucy was interesting, too.

On another thread on this site, the question of female subjugation by physical means, often by mutilation, is raised: this, I consider, is a cultural question, and it is a culture that is rightly condemned by most in the West (including the men). However, in the UK, there is some defence of it – that it is cultural, and we cannot expect people immigrating to give up ALL their culture when they come here. Those defending it tend to be left-wing, and FEMINIST!

Radical Rodent, I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make. Men protect women, but if we want equal rights we have to expect they will turn on us and treat us like shit, and that’s the price of wanting human rights?
Female human beings want our human rights recognized, whether or not women are more nurturing than men wouldn’t change this. That’s not wanting to be like men, that’s wanting to have your human rights recognized. If men feel the need to protect women, women do not have to forfeit their basic human rights because of it. I feel protective toward the elderly, does that mean once a man gets too old to defend himself he has to forfeit HIS human rights? I doubt you believe that. We want a culture based on the rights and dignity of all individuals, regardless of their physical strength or body type or sex or race or age. If there is a macho subculture that fosters male on male violence and cruelty, that is also a problem that should be dealt with. It’s a toxic definition of masculinity that hurts men, women and children alike. If there are misguided women who think culture and tradition trump women’s human rights, they can call themselves feminists all they like but they are fooling themselves. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

I’ve been in all male environments and I see men gang up on women, not because it’s how they treat everybody, but because they are outraged at the idea of a woman not knowing her (inferior) place and are deliberately punish her for being “uppity.” That’s what we’re talking about, not general human cruelty and callousness, which everyone is capable of and which isn’t a quality to be celebrated.

As you can see, there’s a lot of scared, ignorant, arrogant boys out there who piss their pants in fear the moment a woman say anything other than “men are perfect creatures that I adore!”.

They can’t handle the truth, because it doesn’t agree with their limited, cloistered, comfy worldview. They tell women to shut up and sit down – while claiming to support equal rights, because otherwise they might actually have to DO something. They threaten violence in a cowardly, couched way, because they can’t back up a single thing they say against diversity or equality.

And, they mansplain as hard as they can so they can avoid thinking.

Luckily, they’re the increasingly obsolete and increasingly shrinking segment of the atheist/skeptical movement.

Of course, you know all this. So keep fighting the good fight. Inclusivity, diversity and all that good stuff is happening without these obsolete sexists. And, they’re starting to realize it.

Thank you, folks (and especially theoreticalgrrl), for stopping by and answering these guys’ comments. A while ago I decided to let people have the last word when it was just opinion and lecture (versus misrepresentation and unsupported claims) but I’m inordinately pleased that they’re being lectured back to, and I appreciate the support. Thanks for the referral, too, at Pharyngula! It’s always nice to stay connected, and especially heartwarming to see a link to this blog from a blog I like to read myself!

First off – I am a man, the facts I am about to give you here have been proven by the newest studies. I do not want to blame anyone !

So here goes – hope you’re ready !

Domestic violence:

Of all cases of domestic violence women account to 53%, men to 47%, but there are only womens shelters available, which ironically only helps men – yes you heard right – the number of men killed by domestic violence has steadily dropped since the 1970s, the number of women killed by domestic violence has not !

Paedophilia:

There are just as many women who go after children, as there are men. Women who succumb to this strange notion of “love” seek jobs as … take a wild guess.

Schools:

Nowadays boys have to work harder to get the same grades, as girls do ( a problem once associated to girls). The number of men graduating from college is in steady decline, the number of women graduating is rising (It’s about 60% women, 40% men now – if everything keeps going as is soon enough no men will graduate from college)

Isn’t it liberating to know that women are not these fragile victims they are always portrayed to be ?

Are men and women equal ?

No, they are most certainly are not – there are things men are better at and there are things women are better at. Men have different traits then women do ! Men don’t want to be treated as women and women don’t want to be treated as men. As soon as both sides of the fence acknowlege this fact a true discussion can begin.

I really do not want to throw around blame, this won’t help anybody !

Please – I urge all critical thinking feminists – get rid of this foul notion that both sexes are equal and start to embrace the fact, that we are different – not better ,not worse – just different.

Let us men do the same thing you have had a chance to do for over 100 years – Give us men the chance to redefine our role in society, our role as men. At the moment we don’t need your help – we need your support. Until we actually know what we really want/need, any help, how well meaning it may be would be counterproductive. Support us, as we have supported you. Accept that there will always be a few bad apples amongst us, just as there are bad pears among you.

Dearly

A humanist

P.S.: I apologize for any bad English (It’s a second language to me), I hope I got my point across.

Hi Humanist,
By that logic, nobody is equal. Everyone has differences in their biological make-up. My sister is an extrovert and I’m an introvert. My brother is as introverted as I am. I can think of male friends that I have more in common with than some female friends. Equality is not a ‘foul notion’ and it doesn’t mean that everyone is exactly the same biologically. We have different secondary sexual characteristics, but that doesn’t effect an individual’s intelligence or ability to be skeptical.

You said, “Nowadays boys have to work harder to get the same grades, as girls do ( a problem once associated to girls).” Do you believe this is because girls’ biology has changed, or that society and cultural expectations have changed?

We should celebrate differences (sorry, I’m starting to sound like a Hallmark Greeting Card) but we have humanity in common, that is what we base the idea of equality on.

First off – I in no way said that any sex was more intelligent/better then the other – I said different.

Yes – we want everybody to be treated according to their own strenghts and weaknesses – may they be male or female.

We want everybody to be teated in a fair way – If everybody is treated equally, then by it’s own definition, there is a bias against/for one sex or the other.

Women – rightly so – did not want to be treated like men. Society changed, now everyone is being treated like women. This, in turn treats men unjustly. That is why I have a problem with the word equal in the gender discussion. If both sexes were treated in an honest and fair way, there would be no bias against anybody. Being equal was important in the context of the womans suffrage movement, but that was resolved long ago.

Women have managed to redefine their role in society, men on the other hand are still stuck in the same old ways. Men too, for instance, want to care for their children – we too want to take time off work to enjoy parenting, but are prohibited from doing so.

If a woman works a halftime job (the real reason why women make less money then men) and is a mother, then she is a modern empowered woman. If a man tries to do the same, then he is half a man, not a good provider.

I also challenge this notion, that success in the workplace is so important. Men have defined themselves long enough after this criteria alone and now women fall into the same trap. Men weren’t/aren’t really happy doing this – guess what women aren’t either. Most humans experience real happiness, when they are able to fulfill their biological roles. That’s where I have a problem with feminism, which (a lot of times) tries to deny this important fact.

I also have a big problem with the notion, that women can (and should) do it “all on their own”. Why would women want to burden themselves in this way ? Evolution didn’t create the male sex just for fun. We complement one another, both sexes play a vital role in the development and well being of children.

A lot of the problems feminism tries to address are in reality not gender based, but problems stemming from how our economy works. Why for instance are those who look after our children (schools, daycare,…) paid so little money ? I want the most able persons of our society to look after our little ones, not the failures and rejects (I am exaggerating). Why is it that inventing new weapons is so much more important, then social equality. Women are just as much to blame for this as men are.

What I’m really trying to say is this – feminism has failed – women and men. By the definition of the term it is non inclusive to men. Any attempt to “save” it will most certainly fail. There will always be these hard core feminist man haters, who’ll ruin it for everybody else. A new fresh gender neutral start is needed. Feminists have burnt down too many bridges, that any self-respecting man would ever come near it again.
So we understand ourselves – the new mens rights movement is just as bad and already there are those woman hating men on the fringe who make it hard for everybody else.

The media have trained us well – There is a “gender-war” and there can only be one winner. As long as we operate in this frame of mind true independence will never happen.

Humanist,
You do understand that feminism is about women’s rights? It’s a specific thing. I don’t expect people of color to focus on white people’s rights as well as their own civil rights, or GLBT activists to include heterosexual rights in their activism. And I wouldn’t consider those activists failures if they haven’t solved every problem on the planet for everyone, or white haters and straight haters.

“feminism has failed”
No, it hasn’t. I grew up in a traditional household where mom stayed at home and dad went to work. And that made me really not want to follow that tradition. I want to reach my full potential as a human being. Do you think I’m wrong for wanting that? As a U.S. citizen, I can do things most women on this planet never have a chance to do. Things aren’t perfect and there are still things to fight for, but as a U.S. citizen I have many things to be thankful for. And that is due to the feminist activism of women who came before me. Feminism focuses on women because women almost always get ignored when people talk about human rights. If we were included, we wouldn’t need feminism. As long as women are treated like a special interest group at best, and subhuman at worst, we need a movement for women’s rights, i.e. feminism.

“Feminists have burnt down too many bridges, that any self-respecting man would ever come near it again.”
How so? I know many self-respecting men who consider themselves feminist or pro-feminist.

“The media have trained us well – There is a “gender-war” and there can only be one winner. As long as we operate in this frame of mind true independence will never happen.”
I agree with you here to a certain degree. It shouldn’t be a zero sum game. A society that respects the rights of all people is a healthy society. One that is based on the idea that “might makes right” is a nightmare, especially for women and children.

Thank you, TGrrl, for doing this work for me. And Humanist… this blog is what it is. If you don’t feel like my advice is useful, skip it. It’s just one person’s advice about one person’s problems. I’m not going to argue with you about whether problems I see are real problems or if my advice is useful. It’s the best I got. If you have Things to Say about problems you see, go start your own blog but stop lecturing me here.

I have to agree with Humanist, here. Whether you like it or not, men and women are different, both physically and psychologically. Feminism is really a self-defeating concept – as, also are the LGBT, “Gay rights”, etc. movements. Yes, everyone should have the same rights as everyone else – but it has to be remembered (and is usually more often forgotten) that with rights come responsibilities. Whatever another person wishes to do in private is of no concern to me – I just do not want them to shove it in my face all the time. If any person of either sex wishes to do work more commonly associated with the opposite sex – e.g. a man being the home-maker, a woman being the miner (though I doubt that any man wants to be a miner, it is usually all there is available for him to earn money) – then there can be no reason why they should not be allowed to do that, and to get the same rewards and recompense as others in that role. Being different, each may well approach the job in a different way from expected; if it is an improvement for the general workforce, then it is good. However, there have been many instances reported where it was not an improvement nor for the benefit of others in the job – if the “different” worker is male, he is summarily kicked out, often to much jeering and ridicule; if female, then, as often as not, the “feminist” movement move all to keep the woman in, often to the detriment of her male co-workers. Is that what “equality” has now become?

Perhaps the best way to win people to your cause would be to lead by example; treat all those you meet with equal respect, reward with equal recompense. This is generally the case in “western” society (yes, I know, there are many exceptions, but these are reducing); as the rest of the world is shown the benefits of this way, they will (eventually) follow. Those who do wish to join the “western” world must surrender many of their more pernicious cultural roots in doing so – “honour” killings are murder, and should always be treated as such.

KarenX, is this blog just for you to have a rant to all those who agree with you, or is it a site for open-minded discussion?

If the former, then I shall retract my original comment on this site, and withdraw from it.

KarenX, is this blog just for you to have a rant to all those who agree with you, or is it a site for open-minded discussion?

Calling this blog a rant is a gross mischaracterization. Seriously. Approaching it in that way and framing your question in response to that idea suggests that you aren’t particularly open-minded, frankly, and your question is asked to derail/criticize rather than gather information.

I don’t care what kind of open-minded discussion goes on in my comments so long as it’s within the parameters of the purpose of the blog, which I make clear in the About page.

I am offering advice on how to solve a specific problem (increasing the number of women actively participating in the skeptical movement) based on my own experiences as an active participant in the skeptical movement. That’s all I am doing. If you don’t like the advice, ignore it; I give the best advice I know how to give. If you have specific advice about how to increase the number of women participating in the that is different, offer it. But this is not the place for some broad philosophical discussion about men and women, and life, and feminism, and history, and my utter, utter wrongness and the futility of what I am trying to do.

It is possible that the problem of increasing the number of women actively participating in skepticism does not interest you, in which case you should ask yourself what you hope to gain from reading advice columns about it. If you have other things to talk about, you should find places where those things are being discussed.

1. Strangers put their hands on them.
I personally can’t comment heavily on this although it is acceptable for a female stranger to this to a male.
2. They get interrupted.
but its not socially acceptable. The other is encouraged.
3. Their ideas are ignored.
Maybe because I am in a university setting…but women’s ideas are not ignored. Actually, anything a man has to say about men’s issues or his own situation is ignored.
4. Their physical appearance is commented on.
And so do men’s. What is your point? There is nothing wrong someone commenting on your appearance.
5. They are propositioned–directly and indirectly–for sex.
So are men. What is wrong with that? Apart from the fact that it shows someone is interested in you, it is natural.
6. Their gender is used as an insult.
True. I think that’s unfortunate and unfair to the identity of women.
7. They are personally attacked instead of being disagreed with
Yes…like many others who are in argument who doesn’t know how to properly argue. Ad hominems are not exclusive to women.

This article is the very definition of special treatment. If, as a man, you aren’t pitching something with fire, you will get interrupted, ignored, and your idea blown off.

And even if you could get someone to listen, your idea will be taken and raked over coals. Suggesting women be listened to, in the same venue men are ignored, requires special treatment for women.

Whats worse is men don’t have good looks and sexuality to fall back on if they can’t make it any other way.

To say men aren’t physically assaulted is false. Men are victims of violent crimes much more than women so right there this article is full of it.

If its true that just being a man is so easy why do so many oppose and hate on Obama? He’s a man, right? He must be sitting in the white house sipping lemonade since everyone respects and listens to what he says. This article is horrible.

No offense to the author of this article, but since you are not a man, you cannot have the perception of a man. To say that men don’t treat other men in the same manner as they do women is anecdotal and foolish at best. Where is your scientific evidence that would support your claims?

Your 100% correct in women are not asking for special treatment. This is not something that would occur to the typical women to do, that is have to ask for what is expected and routinely received. Depending on the relationship women get a very long list of special preferential treatment. Most women do not want actual full equality. Women will not give up willingly the preferential treatment they want.

True there are women who are different but they are a small fractional minority.

On your list ,

1. Strangers put their hands on them. So what?
Why put (you do that in church) when you can slug. Is not this assault? Its the same for guys.

2. They get interrupted. Join the club.
This happens to guys too, especially if a woman is talking.

3. Their ideas are ignored.
This happens to guys a lot too, probably more.

4. Their physical appearance is commented on.
This happens to guys too. Of coarse women do this to each other with a back stabbing cattiness that is not often found in guys.

5. They are propositioned–directly and indirectly–for sex.
Its part of that built in special treatment. Women rarely take the risk and if they do they are not happy about it. Women are fear/struggle averse. That is once they find something is not easy or makes them have a fear they will avoid it and get/trick/let another (guy) do it

6. Their gender is used as an insult. Not True, women are put on a special pedestal. This is very true with men depicted in main stream media.

7. They are personally attacked instead of being disagreed with. This back stabbing cattiness is more a chick thing that is attacking the personal lives of others.