twelph wrote:I'm at about ten days now, as I had started a few days before I posted to this thread. Something else bothering me, is that in making this goal I feel like I have become aware of the strong aversion I have to my desire for porn. It's hard shifting my thoughts from the aversion to my porn habits, to being able to see the benefits and joy of renunciation. Going to keep at it.

Seeing the aversion is good thing. Just take it easy. Be kind with yourself. Outside of becoming ariya, you are not going to get rid of sexual feelings. The question becomes what do you do with them, what kind of relationship will you have with them. Even though sexual feelings are naught more than a natural part of being a biological being, you can make them an enemy and hate yourself for having them and all the confliction that goes with that.

True that. Hating and blaming yourself would make matters worse, and it will cause other problems like stress , low self-esteem and so on

Thanks for the post. I would consider myself an addict of porn and this site may be enough to get me started in a new direction. I have been wanting to for years, but haven't found the right approach to.

There is this sutta, can't remember which at present, where the Buddha is quoted as having said, that before (attainment (or regular practice?) of jhana, he was still able to be tempted by lust, but that once he had jhana, he could no longer be tempted by lust. I have read in a few places that the piti-sukha of the first jhana is more pleasant that any sensual pleasure. So one way to give up porn forever, would be to learn how to obtain the higher forms of pleasure in meditation.

Manas, I think you might be putting the cart in front of the horse. Sense restraint, observation of sila and the development of samadhi leads to jhana. Not the other way round. And attaining jhana is no guarantee that one will not indulge in sense pleasures again. When one is in jhana, the hindrances are subdued not permanently eradicated.kind regards,

Ben

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.

Manas, I think you might be putting the cart in front of the horse. Sense restraint, observation of sila and the development of samadhi leads to jhana. Not the other way round. And attaining jhana is no guarantee that one will not indulge in sense pleasures again. When one is in jhana, the hindrances are subdued not permanently eradicated.kind regards,

Ben

Hi Ben,

I agree that sense-restraint is always good, no matter where we are at! But I also think it would liberate alot of energy to no longer have to 'battle' sex desire, so that one could give more energy to eradicating other, more subtle defilements. And the impression I got from that sutta (which sadly I cannot as yet re-find) was that the Buddha was kind of recommending we all practice jhana. But I am certainly not saying that the road there is easy - because as I suspect you were implying, I hear it takes much effort and renunciation to actually get there in the first place! But even so, I do look forward to not 'itching' anymore. It will be a relief. I'm getting sick of the tyranny of sex desire. I would welcome being free of it, yes even just by 'wholesome suppression'.

manas wrote:the Buddha was kind of recommending we all practice jhana.

Yes he did. Jhana has a number of meanings, one is meditative absorption, it was also sometimes used as term for mental cultivation.

manas wrote:I hear it takes much effort and renunciation to actually get there in the first place!

Yes, that is correct.

manas wrote:But even so, I do look forward to not 'itching' anymore.

You may wish to investigate insight exercises that will assist with the eradication of all defilements, including lust. Vipassana has as its support samadhi, and the support for samadhi is sila.kind regards,

Ben

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.

manas wrote:the Buddha was kind of recommending we all practice jhana.

Yes he did. Jhana has a number of meanings, one is meditative absorption, it was also sometimes used as term for mental cultivation.

manas wrote:I hear it takes much effort and renunciation to actually get there in the first place!

Yes, that is correct.

manas wrote:But even so, I do look forward to not 'itching' anymore.

You may wish to investigate insight exercises that will assist with the eradication of all defilements, including lust. Vipassana has as its support samadhi, and the support for samadhi is sila.kind regards,

Ben

Hi Ben,

I appreciate your kind advice. Actually I posted that info re jhana and the diminishment of sex desire for the potential benefit of others; because, I am finding that working on the cultivation of jhana as per the instructions of Thanissaro Bhikkhu, really is reducing the affliction of sexual lust, gradually. If I attain jhana proper, and if it does indeed give complete (albeit temporary) relief from any temptation to indulge at all, I will let this topic know. But I also wish to add that (our practice) might not be so far apart as some might think, because in the type of samadhi cultivation I am undertaking, insight goes hand-in-hand with calm, they are not two separate things. If we are both trying to make the mind calm so that we can see clearly, are we really so different?

manas wrote:Actually I posted that info re jhana and the diminishment of sex desire for the potential benefit of others; because, I am finding that working on the cultivation of jhana as per the instructions of Thanissaro Bhikkhu, really is reducing the affliction of sexual lust, gradually...

...But I also wish to add that (our practice) might not be so far apart as some might think, because in the type of samadhi cultivation I am undertaking, insight goes hand-in-hand with calm, they are not two separate things. If we are both trying to make the mind calm so that we can see clearly, are we really so different?

I am glad you are finding that.Jhana can be separated from Vipassana and is taught as a separate practice under some teachers. But they should go hand in hand. Within my own tradition there is a very close alignment of both samadhi and vipassana-bhavana. Be careful with Jhana - it can be extraordinarily seductive. And be careful you don't replace craving and relishing one type of sensual pleasure for another.kind regards

Ben

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.

manas wrote:Actually I posted that info re jhana and the diminishment of sex desire for the potential benefit of others; because, I am finding that working on the cultivation of jhana as per the instructions of Thanissaro Bhikkhu, really is reducing the affliction of sexual lust, gradually...

...But I also wish to add that (our practice) might not be so far apart as some might think, because in the type of samadhi cultivation I am undertaking, insight goes hand-in-hand with calm, they are not two separate things. If we are both trying to make the mind calm so that we can see clearly, are we really so different?

I am glad you are finding that.Jhana can be separated from Vipassana and is taught as a separate practice under some teachers. But they should go hand in hand. Within my own tradition there is a very close alignment of both samadhi and vipassana-bhavana. Be careful with Jhana - it can be extraordinarily seductive. And be careful you don't replace craving and relishing one type of sensual pleasure for another.kind regards

Ben

Hi Ben,

I thank you for your concern Ben, but 'seductive' isn't the right word afaics. The only way 'in' to jhana is renunciation, as you know, and really, I have never heard the jhanas described as 'seductive' anywhere in the suttas...maybe that idea stems from the fact that some persons don't practice it in the correct way, that is, they go in to jhana without being properly committed to the rest of the Path also, and thus it is at the risk of being 'wrong concentration'...? But if we are sufficiently endowed with right view, and virtue, and the other Path factors, I think it is 'safe' to venture in to jhana.

with metta.

Last edited by manas on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Some ideas that have helped me overcome pornography addiction:- donating to the Rape Crisis Center. This is my number one tip.- Post to this thread. I actually had a dream at night once where I wanted to find porn then remembered this thread in the dream!- use medical terminology for parts of the anatomy e.g. mammary glands- occasional masturbation without porn (Days 9, 24, 36, 38, 86, 106) isn't the same addiction although there is the urge to seek out porn when trying to do it. Abstain on Uposatha Days one day a week (full moon, new moon, half moon).- memorize this Ajahn Brahm quote: "...the things that come out of this body!" I keep a bowel diary and visualize how the body derives nourishment through the intestines.- overcome the delusion that the women are smiling at you and not just at the photographer (without looking at photos!)- set Google SafeSearch to Strict. You can Password Lock it too. Anything to create an impediment to casual whims.- Burn your bridges: make it more difficult to access satisfying porn e.g. delete favorite photos from your hard drive and backups. - I think a sense of humor is important. A female moderator on a sexuality forum explained that not all women will have strong PC muscles which has successfully reduced my visual and auditory based lust for my neighbor's wife!

I have been quite honest about my struggles with this in the past. I have had some real good results as of late and I’d like to share them. For the record, I am not trying to be celibate or even quit masturbating (at least not at this time), I just do not want to use porn, especially on the internet; its endless which is why it is so dangerous and I feel it is a waste of my energy.

I have reduced my usage a lot in the past 2 years with minimal backlash. It has be slow but steady. I’ve been analyzing the entire process in order to understand it, and the most important thing I have begun to discover is the deeper meaning of the shame that I experience after I use. Initially I only understood it as guilt for not being to resist and succumbing to the urges, but I soon realized there was much more to it than that. It is a stern reminder of how ordinary I am and that I am not as developed as I want to be. One day I feel like a solid practitioner who is at a certain level and then the next I fall into a trap that humbles me. Worse off, it is a trap that I have fallen into thousands of times. Perhaps this was so blatantly obvious that I failed to pay much attention to it in the past. I have begun recalling this when I start to get the urges. I focus on my goal which is the reorientation that Dan brought up. I say to myself, “Hey! If you really want to progress in the dhamma then this (porn usage) has to stop. You can give in, but you know how you will feel afterwards. Is the pleasure worth it?”

This may not be the case for everyone, but I am saving no space for a porn habit. Maybe some people can do it and still have a strong practice. Not me. It is a full on surrendering of control and attentiveness that goes against everything I am trying to accomplish. Once again, I am not looking to be rid of sex and masturbation, but porn has to go.

manas wrote:There is this sutta, can't remember which at present, where the Buddha is quoted as having said, that before (attainment (or regular practice?) of jhana, he was still able to be tempted by lust, but that once he had jhana, he could no longer be tempted by lust. I have read in a few places that the piti-sukha of the first jhana is more pleasant that any sensual pleasure. So one way to give up porn forever, would be to learn how to obtain the higher forms of pleasure in meditation.

The Buddha has also been quoted as saying that if there was another attachment as strong as lust, or sexual pleasure, one would never be able to achieve enlightenment. Essentially saying that lust, love, sexual desire and so on are the hardest human conditions to overcome.

manas wrote:There is this sutta, can't remember which at present, where the Buddha is quoted as having said, that before (attainment (or regular practice?) of jhana, he was still able to be tempted by lust, but that once he had jhana, he could no longer be tempted by lust. I have read in a few places that the piti-sukha of the first jhana is more pleasant that any sensual pleasure. So one way to give up porn forever, would be to learn how to obtain the higher forms of pleasure in meditation.

The Buddha has also been quoted as saying that if there was another attachment as strong as lust, or sexual pleasure, one would never be able to achieve enlightenment. Essentially saying that lust, love, sexual desire and so on are the hardest human conditions to overcome.

Yeah, also there are suggestions that stream-enterer and one-returner still have sexual desire. Only no returner and arahant overcome it.

Also there is a story in Jakata in previous life when Bodhisattva attained jhana and superpower and then a princess was sent to him. When saw the girl he immediately lose all of his ability, then he was ready to make killing to achive that girl. Luckily at last he awake from that.

From my experience, manytimes when I have joy and happy with my practice, I really saw sexual desire as empty and meaningless compare to that happiness of giving up. But then it comes back, like in a dream, you become a totally diffrent person.

manas wrote:There is this sutta, can't remember which at present, where the Buddha is quoted as having said, that before (attainment (or regular practice?) of jhana, he was still able to be tempted by lust, but that once he had jhana, he could no longer be tempted by lust. I have read in a few places that the piti-sukha of the first jhana is more pleasant that any sensual pleasure. So one way to give up porn forever, would be to learn how to obtain the higher forms of pleasure in meditation.

The Buddha has also been quoted as saying that if there was another attachment as strong as lust, or sexual pleasure, one would never be able to achieve enlightenment. Essentially saying that lust, love, sexual desire and so on are the hardest human conditions to overcome.

Yeah, also there are suggestions that stream-enterer and one-returner still have sexual desire. Only no returner and arahant overcome it.

Also there is a story in Jakata in previous life when Bodhisattva attained jhana and superpower and then a princess was sent to him. When saw the girl he immediately lose all of his ability, then he was ready to make killing to achive that girl. Luckily at last he awake from that.

From my experience, manytimes when I have joy and happy with my practice, I really saw sexual desire as empty and meaningless compare to that happiness of giving up. But then it comes back, like in a dream, you become a totally diffrent person.

Sexual desire is what I struggle with most in my practice, as is the case with most people. Putting aside lust for an over all love because of how easily the two overlap.

Ben wrote:Be careful with Jhana - it can be extraordinarily seductive. And be careful you don't replace craving and relishing one type of sensual pleasure for another.kind regards

Ben

The Buddha asked himself, upon exiting Jhana,"Why am I afraid of that pleasure which has nothing to do with the five senses nor with unwholesome things? I will not be afraid of that pleasure [of Jhana]!" (MN 36) I don't want to get into a Jhana discussion, but it is very incorrect to say that Jhana is a sensual pleasure in any way comparable to sexual arousal.

I would encourage anyone who has a problem with sexual desire to pursue the supreme bliss of Jhana instead, and not to be afraid!

Gain and loss, status and disgrace, censure and praise, pleasure and pain:these conditions among human beings are inconstant,impermanent, subject to change.

Sexual desire is what I struggle with most in my practice, as is the case with most people. Putting aside lust for an over all love because of how easily the two overlap

From my knowledge and experience, one reason sexual desire arises because the mind is not happy and not mindful. In the unconscious state it seeks happiness and joy and it turn to the shortest way which is sexual desire.

LonesomeYogurt wrote:

Ben wrote:Be careful with Jhana - it can be extraordinarily seductive. And be careful you don't replace craving and relishing one type of sensual pleasure for another.kind regards

Ben

The Buddha asked himself, upon exiting Jhana,"Why am I afraid of that pleasure which has nothing to do with the five senses nor with unwholesome things? I will not be afraid of that pleasure [of Jhana]!" (MN 36) I don't want to get into a Jhana discussion, but it is very incorrect to say that Jhana is a sensual pleasure in any way comparable to sexual arousal.

I would encourage anyone who has a problem with sexual desire to pursue the supreme bliss of Jhana instead, and not to be afraid!

It seems that Ben said about some kind of non-jhana meditation experience.

I don't know about jhana but the bliss of giving up only arise when, uhm, giving up. So what is to be afraid of? When one tastes the happiness one will know giving up is better. Because the happiness the mind is so calm so no way craving can arise

Hormones man. Hormones is the key. You can't get rid of it, but you can take control, and slowly overcome it day by day , the brain is designed to have infinite number of taughts, ideas intentions, you just need to try to make sure every each of it is a good one, it's almost impossible to achieve that, for us laypeople, we don't need to, we just need to try our best. I don't know a lot of Buddhist terms like you all, but I hope this post helped, I am a mahayanist and also study Theravada , but I am a simple man, so I use simple words to express myself:)

Vlcimba wrote:Hormones man. Hormones is the key. You can't get rid of it, but you can take control, and slowly overcome it day by day , the brain is designed to have infinite number of taughts, ideas intentions, you just need to try to make sure every each of it is a good one, it's almost impossible to achieve that, for us laypeople, we don't need to, we just need to try our best. I don't know a lot of Buddhist terms like you all, but I hope this post helped, I am a mahayanist and also study Theravada , but I am a simple man, so I use simple words to express myself:)

Hell, no. I tell you this, at first I don't know that when I get bored I can have sexual desire to escape the reality, but after realize that, I can easily overcome it when I am bored. The unconscious state of the mind is very important, you must read it yourself.

Hormones is important but it is not the key. If hormones is the key then no one can get rid of it, or arahant is just a drug user. Also the master would teach all of his disciples to get a castration to become an arahant, because it will kill sexual desire forever, but he didn't.

Actually hormones is under the control of the brain, or the mind not vice versa. If you fear the brain will pump alot of adrenaline into your body, but the brain must conceive a fear first. If you brain (mind) conceive a woman is ugly then no hormones could rise sexual desire in you about her. In reality it is not as simple as that because the mind and the hardware interact with each other quite fast and they stimulus each other, but the mind is superior to the hardware.

The Buddha emphasis on the mind because he know what is good what is bad. If you think you are better than him then welcome our new master of the dhamma.