So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

Back with "Singular Destiny" I thought that the Typhon Pact would make an interesting enemy, but since then I haven't really found the Pact to be that enemy that they were setup to be. I've read up to Brinkmanship, but right now I've found the Pact is more of a mouse giving off the roar of a tiger and doesn't really seem to be as big of a threat, or even be in the same class of enemy to the Federation as the Cardassians/Dominion or the Borg. The Pact seems to be more like those two races from "The Outrageous Okona", and my reaction tends to be like Riker's in that episode when he says that the regs do call for shields against pea shooters.

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I've only read Cold Equations and Zero Sum Game so the Typhon Pact is coming off as pretty formidable so far. Admittedly, the Breen are coming off a bit like Starscream so far. I.e. the guy who does more damage to you than your enemies.

I've only read Cold Equations and Zero Sum Game so the Typhon Pact is coming off as pretty formidable so far. Admittedly, the Breen are coming off a bit like Starscream so far. I.e. the guy who does more damage to you than your enemies.

Back with "Singular Destiny" I thought that the Typhon Pact would make an interesting enemy, but since then I haven't really found the Pact to be that enemy that they were setup to be. I've read up to Brinkmanship, but right now I've found the Pact is more of a mouse giving off the roar of a tiger and doesn't really seem to be as big of a threat, or even be in the same class of enemy to the Federation as the Cardassians/Dominion or the Borg.

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See, that's the mistake people keep making. The Pact was never meant to be just another Big Bad, another basis for war stories. Destiny was the biggest war/action story you could ever have, and in the wake of that it would've been foolish to try to top it, so the decision was made to go in a different direction, a subtler and more sociopolitical direction. The big conflict is ended, the chessboard has been knocked over, and now the survivors have to rebuild, to establish new relationships and power dynamics, to try out new approaches in a new, transformed galaxy. Powers that once dominated the quadrant are weakened, and that opens the door for formerly marginalized powers to become prominent, and they're jockeying for position and advantage both with the old powers and with one another.

I understand Christopher, now, certainly. Still, I will say I *LOVE* when the Typhon Pact and Federation butt heads both politically as well as covertly. I love Cold War stories and think the TP is great for them.

Back with "Singular Destiny" I thought that the Typhon Pact would make an interesting enemy, but since then I haven't really found the Pact to be that enemy that they were setup to be. I've read up to Brinkmanship, but right now I've found the Pact is more of a mouse giving off the roar of a tiger and doesn't really seem to be as big of a threat, or even be in the same class of enemy to the Federation as the Cardassians/Dominion or the Borg.

Click to expand...

See, that's the mistake people keep making. The Pact was never meant to be just another Big Bad, another basis for war stories. Destiny was the biggest war/action story you could ever have, and in the wake of that it would've been foolish to try to top it, so the decision was made to go in a different direction, a subtler and more sociopolitical direction. The big conflict is ended, the chessboard has been knocked over, and now the survivors have to rebuild, to establish new relationships and power dynamics, to try out new approaches in a new, transformed galaxy. Powers that once dominated the quadrant are weakened, and that opens the door for formerly marginalized powers to become prominent, and they're jockeying for position and advantage both with the old powers and with one another.

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I'm very glad this didn't just turn into another war story. What we've gotten so far has been a lot more interesting, IMO, than if they had turned the TP/KA conflict into just another big shooting war.

i've been playing catchup on the post-nemesis books. I'm just now getting to the TP series. When i get to the DRG III duology of the series, i will have no knowledge whatsoever of the DS9 relaunch. Can i read the DRG III books, or would i be lost getting into where things are with DS9?

^No more lost than people who are familiar with the relaunch, essentially, since there's a 4-year gap in the storyline that hasn't been filled in, so it's kind of a fresh start for everyone. There are some references to past events, but on the whole it's not that closely tied to prior relaunch storylines.

Back with "Singular Destiny" I thought that the Typhon Pact would make an interesting enemy, but since then I haven't really found the Pact to be that enemy that they were setup to be. I've read up to Brinkmanship, but right now I've found the Pact is more of a mouse giving off the roar of a tiger and doesn't really seem to be as big of a threat, or even be in the same class of enemy to the Federation as the Cardassians/Dominion or the Borg.

Click to expand...

See, that's the mistake people keep making. The Pact was never meant to be just another Big Bad, another basis for war stories. Destiny was the biggest war/action story you could ever have, and in the wake of that it would've been foolish to try to top it, so the decision was made to go in a different direction, a subtler and more sociopolitical direction. The big conflict is ended, the chessboard has been knocked over, and now the survivors have to rebuild, to establish new relationships and power dynamics, to try out new approaches in a new, transformed galaxy. Powers that once dominated the quadrant are weakened, and that opens the door for formerly marginalized powers to become prominent, and they're jockeying for position and advantage both with the old powers and with one another.

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But even with no war in the series, the Typhon Pact stories, for the most part, have been mediocre and subpar, since the Pact hasn't even offered that Cold War feel, and when compared to other Trek mini-series, such as "Double Helix", "Mission: Gamma" or "The Captain's Table", the Typhon Pact just pales in comparison, and a number of the plots seem to be reused over and over in the series, or are so similar to one another (how many times have we seen the Federation implant or extract a spy in the series already?) that the series just hasn't lived up to what was established in "Singular Destiny" for the "jumping off point"; it's landed flat on its face instead of flying.

Back with "Singular Destiny" I thought that the Typhon Pact would make an interesting enemy, but since then I haven't really found the Pact to be that enemy that they were setup to be. I've read up to Brinkmanship, but right now I've found the Pact is more of a mouse giving off the roar of a tiger and doesn't really seem to be as big of a threat, or even be in the same class of enemy to the Federation as the Cardassians/Dominion or the Borg.

Click to expand...

See, that's the mistake people keep making. The Pact was never meant to be just another Big Bad, another basis for war stories. Destiny was the biggest war/action story you could ever have, and in the wake of that it would've been foolish to try to top it, so the decision was made to go in a different direction, a subtler and more sociopolitical direction. The big conflict is ended, the chessboard has been knocked over, and now the survivors have to rebuild, to establish new relationships and power dynamics, to try out new approaches in a new, transformed galaxy. Powers that once dominated the quadrant are weakened, and that opens the door for formerly marginalized powers to become prominent, and they're jockeying for position and advantage both with the old powers and with one another.

Click to expand...

But even with no war in the series, the Typhon Pact stories, for the most part, have been mediocre and subpar, since the Pact hasn't even offered that Cold War feel,

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Given the events of Zero Sum Game, Rough Beasts of Empire, Plagues of Night, Raise the Dawn, and Brinkmanship? I really don't know how you can say that Star Trek: Typhon Pact hasn't offered "that Cold War feel."

and when compared to other Trek mini-series, such as "Double Helix", "Mission: Gamma" or "The Captain's Table", the Typhon Pact just pales in comparison, and a number of the plots seem to be reused over and over in the series, or are so similar to one another (how many times have we seen the Federation implant or extract a spy in the series already?)

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A spy, or a short-term covert operative?

By my count, we saw Federation spies in Brinkmanship and we saw a short-term covert operation in Zero Sum Game. Had the Federation any decent spies on Romulus, the crises in Rough Beasts/Plagues/Dawn might have been averted.

that the series just hasn't lived up to what was established in "Singular Destiny" for the "jumping off point"; it's landed flat on its face instead of flying.

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Don't agree at all. By my count, the only weak entry in Typhon Pact was Seize the Fire. Zero Sum Game is a wonderful, James-Bond-meets-John-le-Carre thriller, and Brinkmanship kept me on the edge of my seat, and Plagues/Dawn is just one of the absolute best duologies of the past thirteen years.

See, that's the mistake people keep making. The Pact was never meant to be just another Big Bad, another basis for war stories. Destiny was the biggest war/action story you could ever have, and in the wake of that it would've been foolish to try to top it, so the decision was made to go in a different direction, a subtler and more sociopolitical direction. The big conflict is ended, the chessboard has been knocked over, and now the survivors have to rebuild, to establish new relationships and power dynamics, to try out new approaches in a new, transformed galaxy. Powers that once dominated the quadrant are weakened, and that opens the door for formerly marginalized powers to become prominent, and they're jockeying for position and advantage both with the old powers and with one another.

Click to expand...

But even with no war in the series, the Typhon Pact stories, for the most part, have been mediocre and subpar, since the Pact hasn't even offered that Cold War feel,

Click to expand...

Given the events of Zero Sum Game, Rough Beasts of Empire, Plagues of Night, Raise the Dawn, and Brinkmanship? I really don't know how you can say that Star Trek: Typhon Pact hasn't offered "that Cold War feel."

and when compared to other Trek mini-series, such as "Double Helix", "Mission: Gamma" or "The Captain's Table", the Typhon Pact just pales in comparison, and a number of the plots seem to be reused over and over in the series, or are so similar to one another (how many times have we seen the Federation implant or extract a spy in the series already?)

Click to expand...

A spy, or a short-term covert operative?

By my count, we saw Federation spies in Brinkmanship and we saw a short-term covert operation in Zero Sum Game. Had the Federation any decent spies on Romulus, the crises in Rough Beasts/Plagues/Dawn might have been averted.

that the series just hasn't lived up to what was established in "Singular Destiny" for the "jumping off point"; it's landed flat on its face instead of flying.

Click to expand...

Don't agree at all. By my count, the only weak entry in Typhon Pact was Seize the Fire. Zero Sum Game is a wonderful, James-Bond-meets-John-le-Carre thriller, and Brinkmanship kept me on the edge of my seat, and Plagues/Dawn is just one of the absolute best duologies of the past thirteen years.

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I agree with most of what Mr. Bennett and Sci posted.

I would personally add that for me the allure of the TP storyline is the challenge it offers to die hard Trek fans like myself who credit Trek as an influence on their world view. Basically I read it like this, "Oh so the idea of co-operation is a good thing? Well can you continue to hold this view when the people co-operating hold views that are in opposition to yours?" When it's beings coming together that we mostly agree with it's a lot easier. But when they hold views that we find challenging, distasteful or just downright repugnant? Well then suddenly it gets a lot more difficult. Frankly considering how KRAD has played up the differences between the UFP and the Klingon Empire, and the challenge of being allied with an entity that we often have fundamental differences of belief with, that he would expand that idea into the Typhon Pact (who themselves have some pretty significant differences of belief and opinion within their own ranks) creating in my opinion one of the most original and compelling groups in the entire history of Star Trek (and I mean all of Trek, not just the novels).

About my only disagreement is that I actually liked Seize the Fire quite a bit. It made the next book in the Titan series all the more disappointing to me.

At the end of the day, the Typhon Pact isn't built on what makes the Federation strong. They're all individual empires of opportunists. Their cooperation will be short-lived; a few years, perhaps a decades worth of story time. Eventually, one race will depart and not long after it'll splinter. Hate is not a strong enough binding force, thankfully. They may win some battles, but they'll lose the proverbial war.

That said it's a good story device and I like it. I even had the same idea years ago in my own thoughts - of a bunch of "evil empires" banding together as an anti-Federation. I'm sure many of us have thought of such at one time or another. I'm surprised it didn't happen on-screen, TBH.

At the end of the day, the Typhon Pact isn't built on what makes the Federation strong. They're all individual empires of opportunists. Their cooperation will be short-lived; a few years, perhaps a decades worth of story time. Eventually, one race will depart and not long after it'll splinter.

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I agree that at some point, it's likely that the Typhon Pact will splinter. But that doesn't mean it will collapse. And I think that the Romulan Star Empire and the Gorn Hegemony seem to be natural candidates for closer relations in an alliance based on more than exploitative opportunism.

That said it's a good story device and I like it. I even had the same idea years ago in my own thoughts - of a bunch of "evil empires" banding together as an anti-Federation.

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But they're not a bunch of "evil empires." This is Star Trek, not a George W. Bush State of the Union Address. The Romulans under Kamemor are a prime example of this, as are the Gorn. And that's to say nothing of the Tholians, who are implacably hostile yet understandably so, given what the Federation did to them in VAN.

But they're not a bunch of "evil empires." This is Star Trek, not a George W. Bush State of the Union Address. The Romulans under Kamemor are a prime example of this, as are the Gorn. And that's to say nothing of the Tholians, who are implacably hostile yet understandably so, given what the Federation did to them in VAN.

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It's a fine line to draw but I prefer to think of the Typhon Pact as an organization which is a collection of now much-better fleshed out species but ones which still have values diametrically opposed to the Federation. It's not a group of "villains" (Christopher and David Mack were very clear on that) but they don't consider the Federation's principles worth a hill of beans with rare exceptions.

I'd like to see it come together and no longer be, "And the Breen **** over their allies again this week" but I'd also like it to take a formal stand against the Feddie's values. Either that or remain hostile and become more benevolent.

At the end of the day, the Typhon Pact isn't built on what makes the Federation strong. They're all individual empires of opportunists. Their cooperation will be short-lived; a few years, perhaps a decades worth of story time.

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You're forgetting Enterprise. It showed us that in the 2150s, the Vulcans and Andorians were both imperialist powers constantly on the brink of war with each other, and the Tellarites weren't much different. And yet within a few years, they learned to move past their differences and forge an alliance that would last for centuries. Societies can change and grow. The factions in power can be thrown out and replaced with leaders who have different agendas and goals, as happened with Vulcan; or their leaders can just learn to make peace with former enemies, as with the Andorians and Tellarites.

Eventually, one race will depart and not long after it'll splinter. Hate is not a strong enough binding force, thankfully.

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But they're not bound by hate. They're bound by mutual self-interest. In Destiny, President Bacco convinced them that they needed to band together against the threat of the Borg, that they'd be stronger together than apart. But she used heavy-handed, borderline coercive tactics to ensure their cooperation. So the Pact's founders realized she was right -- that they would be stronger and better able to defend their self-interest if they cooperated for their mutual defense. And yet they didn't appreciate the Federation's 800-pound gorilla act, seeing it as just another imperialist power throwing its weight around, and so decided to form an alternative union so that neither the Federation nor anyone else could push them around anymore. That's not hate, it's just the desire for autonomy and self-determination.

So it's a mistake to call them a bunch of "evil empires." Most of them see the Federation -- or their Klingon allies, in the Kinshaya's view -- as the evil empire, the powerful cultural imperialists throwing their weight around and threatening other nations' sovereignty. They see the Pact as a defense against such domination.

^Even a democratic society can get imperious in its treatment of others, as many, many Second and Third World "beneficiaries" of American intervention could tell you. It's not good to have one unilateral superpower, no matter how benevolent it may believe itself to be.