(18-03-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: I don't mind repeating about the Habiru--the mass of Egyptians who vamoosed with the Israelites, were circumcised and added, etc. but now you are saying if you accept a conservative date for the Exodus that it was impossible for a population of 3 million to provide and Exodus of 600,000 Jewish men and whichever of their families survived the purgings that brought on the Exodus... really?

And although your chart looks lovely, was it made via census takers going back in time machines to some of the key dates or was it made of estimates, the way we both know it was? And were Butzer's estimates, do you think, as "spot on" as say, recent American censuses with all our technology?

These Habiru intrigue me, where are you going with this? Or are you going to meander about like you did on the Noah thread without making a clear point?

Quote:What this evidence suggests is that there must be a kernel of truth in the Torah account of Hebrew slaves fleeing Egypt and taking up residence in Canaan. However, most of the details of the story as it appears in the Torah are clearly legendary. According to the Torah, some 600,000 Hebrew men fled Egypt at the time of the Exodus. If we include women and children, plus the “mixed multitude” which was said to accompany them, we are left with at least one million people subsisting for forty years in a barren desert on food which fell from the sky. A more likely scenario would be a small band of Habiru slaves, numbering perhaps some hundreds, escaping Egypt and making a quick passage across the Sinai to link up with the Habiru already in control of the region around Shechem. Very possibly the Habiru fugitives from Egypt were in fact led by a man named Moses, but in any case they seem to have brought with them a new ideology which played a key role in the subseqent Habiru conquest of Canaan.

Not exactly the exaggerated story of Exodus, but far more believable without the ridiculous miracle claims.

And here's where I question your logic, because I think you're very smart, but in this case you've given credence to "a couple of hundred escaped slaves" (some of whom are children) defeating six or seven nations and taking over all Israel in 40 years. I'd think you'd reject that faster than what I'm saying about an Exodus.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.

Not exactly the exaggerated story of Exodus, but far more believable without the ridiculous miracle claims.

And here's where I question your logic, because I think you're very smart, but in this case you've given credence to "a couple of hundred escaped slaves" (some of whom are children) defeating six or seven nations and taking over all Israel in 40 years. I'd think you'd reject that faster than what I'm saying about an Exodus.

You've jumped to all kinds of conclusions here, the story of Exodus probably had it's origins from a bunch of escaped prisoners/slaves, certainly not the absurd 600,000 claimed in the bible. You can't make the assumption they did anything except relay the story as they filtered back into Canaan with their own embellishments about their escape. The story of Exodus could be derived from this story telling with a lot of exaggerations and mythology intertwined as naturally occurs when oral transmission is the means of conveyance of a tale.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition

(19-03-2015 10:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: And here's where I question your logic, because I think you're very smart, but in this case you've given credence to "a couple of hundred escaped slaves" (some of whom are children) defeating six or seven nations and taking over all Israel in 40 years. I'd think you'd reject that faster than what I'm saying about an Exodus.

You've jumped to all kinds of conclusions here, the story of Exodus probably had it's origins from a bunch of escaped prisoners/slaves, certainly not the absurd 600,000 claimed in the bible. You can't make the assumption they did anything except relay the story as they filtered back into Canaan with their own embellishments about their escape. The story of Exodus could be derived from this story telling with a lot of exaggerations and mythology intertwined as naturally occurs when oral transmission is the means of conveyance of a tale.

Let me jump to some more:

These few hundred ex-slaves, escaped the sovereign Egyptian army and the Egyptian empire with its mighty works and palaces and tombs, and fled across the Sinai, and filtered into Canaan, and Canaan all or nearly all worshipped Jehovah, and then Judaism just kind of happened, and millions of animal sacrifices, and the establishment of a Passover, and Messianic expectation, and two temples, and etc. And then a few hundred wackos came up with Xianity, and it just happened to end the gladiatorial games at Rome and so on, until it had two billion adherents worldwide, etc. How convenient for you.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.

(19-03-2015 10:57 AM)TheInquisition Wrote: You've jumped to all kinds of conclusions here, the story of Exodus probably had it's origins from a bunch of escaped prisoners/slaves, certainly not the absurd 600,000 claimed in the bible. You can't make the assumption they did anything except relay the story as they filtered back into Canaan with their own embellishments about their escape. The story of Exodus could be derived from this story telling with a lot of exaggerations and mythology intertwined as naturally occurs when oral transmission is the means of conveyance of a tale.

Let me jump to some more:

These few hundred ex-slaves, escaped the sovereign Egyptian army and the Egyptian empire with its mighty works and palaces and tombs, and fled across the Sinai, and filtered into Canaan, and Canaan all or nearly all worshipped Jehovah, and then Judaism just kind of happened, and millions of animal sacrifices, and the establishment of a Passover, and Messianic expectation, and two temples, and etc. And then a few hundred wackos came up with Xianity, and it just happened to end the gladiatorial games at Rome and so on, until it had two billion adherents worldwide, etc. How convenient for you.

There's no evidence of this, the Israelite nation came about through a movement from a pastoral existence to sedentary farm-based societies which allowed for the emergence of a Semitic state.

You can try to ignorantly ram your biblical myth into everything, but it won't fly, you have no evidence.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition

These few hundred ex-slaves, escaped the sovereign Egyptian army and the Egyptian empire with its mighty works and palaces and tombs, and fled across the Sinai, and filtered into Canaan, and Canaan all or nearly all worshipped Jehovah, and then Judaism just kind of happened, and millions of animal sacrifices, and the establishment of a Passover, and Messianic expectation, and two temples, and etc. And then a few hundred wackos came up with Xianity, and it just happened to end the gladiatorial games at Rome and so on, until it had two billion adherents worldwide, etc. How convenient for you.

There's no evidence of this, the Israelite nation came about through a movement from a pastoral existence to sedentary farm-based societies which allowed for the emergence of a Semitic state.

You can try to ignorantly ram your biblical myth into everything, but it won't fly, you have no evidence.

There's no evidence that Jews celebrated Passover or had Messianic expectations or converted pagans to monotheism? Interesting.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.

(20-03-2015 03:26 PM)TheInquisition Wrote: There's no evidence of this, the Israelite nation came about through a movement from a pastoral existence to sedentary farm-based societies which allowed for the emergence of a Semitic state.

You can try to ignorantly ram your biblical myth into everything, but it won't fly, you have no evidence.

There's no evidence that Jews celebrated Passover or had Messianic expectations or converted pagans to monotheism? Interesting.

There is no evidence of a leader called Moses or Joshua leading a military campaign to establish the nation of Israel, it was a gradual process of separation of people from Canaan over centuries.

The story is just another plagiarized myth in the bible.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition