I can't see how glycogen is "spared" under high-intensity or anaerobic training. The body is unable to process fats at least during the actual anaerobic movements...Perhaps throughout the rest of the morning I could imagine accelerated fat burning.

I do see that if you train cardio in the morning, yes, you optimize fat burning as there is very little glycogen laying around to be used up for energy. This is very effective, IMO.

I personally like cardio in the AM fasted state and heavy lifting in the evening after I have carbed up 300+g for optimum performance in the gym.

Fasted higher intensity cardio results in a lower work output. HIIT is dependent upon a high work output and power output to fascilitate the desired adaptations that improve body composition (in bodybuilding) and conditioning (in sports). Reduced work output means a lower stimuli for adaption, which means less results. There's a good bit on Aragons page reviewing the lit on this.

I can't see how glycogen is "spared" under high-intensity or anaerobic training. The body is unable to process fats at least during the actual anaerobic movements...Perhaps throughout the rest of the morning I could imagine accelerated fat burning.

I do see that if you train cardio in the morning, yes, you optimize fat burning as there is very little glycogen laying around to be used up for energy. This is very effective, IMO.

I personally like cardio in the AM fasted state and heavy lifting in the evening after I have carbed up 300+g for optimum performance in the gym.

That's right, it won't be. You'll get more gluconeogenesis due to reduced blood sugar and liver glycogen levels, but that will only decrease work capacity, which is of the utmost importance for HIIT as mentioned above.

Also, WRT to glycogen after an overnight fast..you'll have less LIVER glycogen, not muscle glycogen (unless you are carbohydrate restricted and depleted the day before). Muscle glycogen is never released, and only tapped into under conditions of higher intensity work or reduced blood glucose.

That's right, it won't be. You'll get more gluconeogenesis due to reduced blood sugar and liver glycogen levels, but that will only decrease work capacity, which is of the utmost importance for HIIT as mentioned above.

Also, WRT to glycogen after an overnight fast..you'll have less LIVER glycogen, not muscle glycogen (unless you are carbohydrate restricted and depleted the day before). Muscle glycogen is never released, and only tapped into under conditions of higher intensity work or reduced blood glucose.

When I said I like cardio in the AM, I was also referring to low-intensity, maybe 50% VMAX. So just to inform others as they read this thread, the mistake with HIIT cardio is that due to low liver glycogen, and a very limited muscle glycogen, the exercise will begin to break down amino acids for energy? Is this correct? This is the way I always understood it if you didn't have enough gycogen for high-intensity training in any case really...

When I said I like cardio in the AM, I was also referring to low-intensity, maybe 50% VMAX. So just to inform others as they read this thread, the mistake with HIIT cardio is that due to low liver glycogen, and a very limited muscle glycogen, the exercise will begin to break down amino acids for energy? Is this correct? This is the way I always understood it if you didn't have enough gycogen for high-intensity training in any case really...

Yes, that's about right.

Some BCAA's might help, as plasma proteins (specifically albumin) are catabolized to obtain them to convert to glucose...as a consequence, tryptophan is released into the blood stream, and we all know what tryptophan does...circa Thanksgiviing.

Some BCAA's might help, as plasma proteins (specifically albumin) are catabolized to obtain them to convert to glucose...as a consequence, tryptophan is released into the blood stream, and we all know what tryptophan does...circa Thanksgiviing.

That's right, it won't be. You'll get more gluconeogenesis due to reduced blood sugar and liver glycogen levels, but that will only decrease work capacity, which is of the utmost importance for HIIT as mentioned above.

Also, WRT to glycogen after an overnight fast..you'll have less LIVER glycogen, not muscle glycogen (unless you are carbohydrate restricted and depleted the day before). Muscle glycogen is never released, and only tapped into under conditions of higher intensity work or reduced blood glucose.

Would this lead to the suggestion of performing HIIT AFTER the heavy lifting?

For most people, I say no as they're overall conditioning is generally not ready for this. Devote separate sessions or days to them and then start to add in more sessions throughout the week as your body adapts.

Does there exist ANY evidence that would suggest fasted AM weight training to be detrimental to gains (strength or weight)? Last I checked all the researched only suggested that fasted didn't really equal more fat loss but there was nothing to say it significently effected body composition or performance. Especially if you take into account no one here is really talking true fasted as most will have a decent amount of ff-aa prior and/or intra workout.

For me fasted morning weight training is just more convienent. I lift before work and do t have much time to get a meal in and let it digest and working out with food in my stomach generally makes me feel like sh1t which in turn effects my intensitiy and general motivation during my session.

That said, I am going to be experimenting with some Greek yogurt, EVCO and a apple or berries prior to working out to see if I notice any difference.

I think from a mental standpoint you will adapt to training under conditions of fast. I'll have to look and see if there is anything WRT to performance fasted vs. fed. If not, it would make for a pretty cool, easy study to conduct.

I think from a mental standpoint you will adapt to training under conditions of fast. I'll have to look and see if there is anything WRT to performance fasted vs. fed. If not, it would make for a pretty cool, easy study to conduct.

I think from a mental standpoint you will adapt to training under conditions of fast. I'll have to look and see if there is anything WRT to performance fasted vs. fed. If not, it would make for a pretty cool, easy study to conduct.

Fasted training works aight for me for any muscle group but legs. Legs I must have tons of carbs hours before training. However, I dont recommend fasted training unless you can also make time for a nice, well-rounded post workout meal afterwards. Otherwise supplemental BCAA's better be ur best friend until u do eat something.

i have been doing my sunday workouts after not eating for 14 hours. ill eat by 8pm at night and the workout is at 10am. ill go for a minimum of 2 hours and sometimes up to 4 hours as its usually my strongman training day with a group of guys.

i have not noticed a loss in performance and im on my 3rd month of doing this. not sure so much about gains yet. still too quick to tell as some things have improved whiles others have not and im recovering from a knee injury. so to me [somewhat] fasted AM training is not hurting me. i will see by april at my next planned powerlifting meet if all this has been worth it.

Not sure I want you to be at the oral examination of the thesis (because I know how adament you are against fasted training and lets face it im not sure I can handle a defense against your questioning lol) but I am definitely going to be reaching out to you when it comes closer to that time. Still a little while away and I am not sure if I actually want to do the above but its not a bad idea and it would be nice to see something either verify or refute the idea of fasted anaerobic training

Not sure I want you to be at the oral examination of the thesis but I am definitely going to be reaching out to you when it comes closer to that time. Still a little while away and I am not sure if I actually want to do the above but its not a bad idea and it would be nice to see something either verify or refute the idea of fasted anaerobic training

I think it would be awesome, and something accomplishable in an appropriate time period (which I have found, may be the most important part to finishing grad school in a timely manner).

I'll concede the panel, we could likely collaborate and between the two of us get 2x as many subjects from two schools, and then you could really crank out some good publishable work.