I had been thinking about how hard it can be to tell the difference between a high quality product, the “genuine article”, and a knockoff or an inferior product recently. Well sometimes the imitator can be so hard to distinguish that even an expert can be fooled at first. To me it’s like that when we are in the Jehovah’s Witness structure- we are told what to believe, given a very well-thought out schedule of all the things we should be doing, etc.

There are two lengthy meetings per week, field service at least once or twice on the weekend, family study night, cleaning of the Kingdom Hall every couple months or even more often, and more. There is the reading of the three monthly issues of the Watchtower and Awake, and now there is the reading of the extra online content at the official website of Jehovah’s Witnesses, JW.org as well. On a yearly basis there are two assemblies and one District Convention to attend, two visits of the circuit overseer (sometimes three even) and on and on it goes.

How could we ever stop and really examine our belief system in fine detail to see if it indeed is that genuine article, or a knockoff in disguise? 1 John 4:1-3 tells us:

Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. You gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. (1 John 4:1-3, NWT)

How do you know if it’s genuine? Compare!

Another question that comes to mind though is this: Do we have anything to compare it to? You can’t tell if a bill is counterfeit or not if you don’t have the “Real McCoy”, an authentic original to compare it to. One point of reasoning that the Watchtower loves to use is that of Jesus’ words about fruits. He basically said that by their fruits you would recognize them, that is, false prophets versus true prophets or worshippers of God. I’d like to share these verses with you from The Message Bible. It is a paraphrased Bible, and it puts Jesus’ words into a very contemporary style:

Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don’t be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned. “Knowing the correct password–saying ‘Master, Master,’ for instance–isn’t going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedience–doing what my Father wills. I can see it now–at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, ‘Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.’ And do you know what I am going to say? ‘You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don’t impress me one bit. You’re out of here.’ (Matthew 7:15-23 MSG)

These words of Christ make me think of the things that I was always told were hallmarks of true Christianity, things that only we as Witnesses had in abundance, such as:

1. Preaching billions of hours each year

2. True love among followers

3. Morally clean people

4. Accurate doctrine, no pagan roots

So what happens when these things are compared with the actual fruitage of Jehovah’s Witnesses? What happens when we stop to really examine these claims and do detailed research into their veracity?

Upon comparison, we find that there are Christians all over the world spreading the gospel- one that is just as true as any the Witnesses have ever spoken at anyone’s door. 1 Corinthians 3:11 proves this simply, as it says, “For no man can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”.

As for true love, there could be a ten-set volume of books compiled containing nothing but accounts of the cruelty and lack of love shown attendees and dedicated members of the Kingdom Hall.

During the years I was an elder I sat on literally hundreds of meetings involving wrongdoing. These included fornication, adultery, drug use, alcoholism, allegations of molestation, violence, etc. The facts are that the brothers and sisters at the Kingdom Hall are just as susceptible to falling into sin as most other regular church attenders. The main difference is that most Christians can confide in a friend, pastor, or fellow congregant, pray to God and be forgiven and move on, whereas the Witness is compelled to confess to the elders and have them absolve and adjudicate the matter for them before they can be forgiven.

The more research we do on Pinatas, birthdays, Christmas, wind chimes, toasting, etc. the more we realize the futility of trying to lay down a “what if” and a rule for each person’s conscience. Colossians says this in part:

Therefore let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a Sabbath. (Colossians 2:16 NWT)

This scripture along with many others we don’t have time to go into in detail now tells us that these things should be left to personal conscience of each Christian, and not made into ironclad rules that bind others.

So what is some of the “other” fruitage reaped by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society that is not talked about openly among Jehovah’s Witnesses or on JW.org?

Broken families – Fathers and mothers husbands and wives that are medications, that are over-using alcohol, and hide secret abuses. These include pornography, incest, child molestation, etc. The Candace Conti ruling just recently has shown that the Watchtower’s policies are directly responsible for many of these atrocities against children. Also many JW families are divided and ripped apart due to their extreme shunning.

Premature death of their members because of a stubborn refusal to receive blood in medical emergencies (estimated at about 50,000 dead since the anti-blood policy was instituted) Not to mention many of these ones are children of JWs

Suicides brought on by disfellowshippment: The shunning practiced by JWs is nearly unmatched among religious people. The Amish are the only others that I know of that are as cruel. People’s entire lives are wiped away in mere moments and all the friends, family members, and even their livelihood if working for JW employers are gone in an instant. Some give in to despair and hedonism, risky lifestyles, and worse, death due to overindulgence or worse.

Billions of lost hours the friends could be spending with their family members and in truly productive endeavors. But the almighty door knocking recruitment work is constantly expected and emphasized. Driving around and around and around burning up gasoline wastes time but if you are lucky enough to be in the back of the minivan talking with your friends and then going to the donut shop it is endurable. And then there is the countless hours lost underlining WT publications and studying the endless list of policies and rules that are repeated and studied over and over and over again. When I was an elder I endured scores of meetings and researched hundreds of letters to the bodies of elders from the Governing Body for who knows how many hours, especially when I was the secretary. It is pointless, and a waste, a distraction from the real message and the real gospel- that of love and devotion to our Master Christ!

Billions of most Witnesses service hours are spent in vain, serving the Watchtower or just driving around chatting

It is true that some have gotten off drugs or repaired their marriage by studying with sincere JWs and been helped. And that’s a good thing! But how many other organizations can also lay claim to these good works? There are thousands of groups worldwide than can and do help tens of millions of people every year! Groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous, The Salvation Army, The Gideons, and countless churches of all denominations can point to many fine testimonies. (If you had previously never been to another religious service or heard any sermons whatsoever like me, being a born-in Witness, you wouldn’t realize that they use the same scriptures, and have so many similiarities with what goes on at the Kingdom Hall it is unbelievable)

Yes they have rebuilt some houses for the brothers after hurricane and other natural disasters, and that too is commendable. But again, how many other individual people and church groups are also doing this? Thousands! So where’s the beef as they say? Well there isn’t much there- this Filet Mignon religion turned out to be a chuck roast marked down to $1.99 a pound church and we didn’t even know it until now! Until learning T.T.A.T.T.!

“Do You Know TTATT?” Is something that we say here on this website often. And more and more Awake Witnesses of the Conscious Class, and Fading Witnesses too know the phrase and use it. So do you know The Truth About The Truth? It is so important, and so profound when you learn this simple acronym. The fact that you are reading or watching this means something. It means a lot.

So the bracelets I ordered and now wear as I write this article are available, and I want you to have one of these. In fact every single one of you that wants one of these bracelets is free to have one. No charge. No shipping. So will you wear one? Will you empower yourself and let your light shine? One brother and good friend of mine told me that after wearing his for awhile he felt solidarity with the rest of us that have left the Watchtower movement and escaped the slavery to men. It personally makes me feel empowered and confident that I’m on the right track when I wear mine.

And if you don’t want to wear it that’s okay too. My point, the reason I’m getting so fired up, is that learning TTATT is so vitally important for so many. It can literally save a JW’s life after they are kicked out or become “weak” or have doubts. It’s about freedom. People have fought and died over freedom for thousands of years. The country I live in, America, was founded by people that were fleeing from religious tyranny- that wanted to have the right to serve God in their own way and not be told how to practice one of the most intimate things a person can do, that of how they personally worship God. And they escaped the tyranny of their day, and they landed on their own “promised land” of a sort.

So I ask again: Do You Know TTATT? If you do, that’s great, keep it up, and find your freedom. Find your path, as I always seem to be saying lately, and stick to it! Life is the journey. We must ask ourselves honestly whether we are on the path at all. Am I hiding behind a rock, or asleep under a tree off on the side of the road? Click on the link below to watch a video version of this discussion on YouTube, and below that there’s a link to how you can get your free bracelet. God bless you all, have fun, enjoy life, and wear your TTATT bracelet proudly if you can.

253 Comments on Do You Know TTATT?

Great article….I found out TTATT thirty years after baptism…I’m still angry with myself for having been brainwashed for so long. ..In my part of the world where polygamy is culturally still acceptable,I know many elders (including COs and bethelites)who’ve lived a double life by having mistresses and children for years while sitting on JCs judging and disfellowshipping others. ..
God’s spirit isn’t in the WT organisation, it’s no different from other churches even when it come to morals.

Today i cried…i went to what i believe will be my last circuit assembly…i went to my old circuit, so many friends and family including some giving parts on stage and i cried twice if only they knew the truth about the truth i was recently serving as a Ministerial Servant and got ill physically and was deleted for not being a club player, i found this site and a few others and this has helped me find god and i have not gone to the meetings in months and am close to finding peace at last i am not a sinner i love the brothers i love god but we have been lied to

Skyrainbow,the faitful and discreet slaves are distributing poisonous “spiritual” foods that’s why so many witnesses are dying or already dead because of the poisonous “spiritual” foods they are being fed with. I would prefer to have a TTAT bracelet over poisonous spiritual foods

Skyrainbow the reason these bracelets are being distributed is not to put it out there and have people ask what it means, what it’s for is for us who have been hurt and know the truth about what we always believed to be the truth but now know otherwise, we love the brothers we just cannot consciously agree with the information the faithful and discreet slave distributes that go beyond what is written in the bible. Some of us still go to meetings and listen to the good food and information however sometimes it is contaminated with lies.

Hi Man oh man
Wow, you are spot on. A funny way of describing a not so funny situation, thank you!
Hi CM-
My heart goes out to you. “been there, done that”. The light will get brighter for you. Hang in there!
Hi JJ
Awesome! I get blessed with two great articles in just a few days. Love it, I can’t ever over eat on spritiual food. And the bracelet idea is brilliant. I am planning on getting one. Thank you for your witnessing work, I think “Paul” in the bible would have dug ya.
Cheers!

Thank you very much FreethinkerinJah I really appreciate it and i thank all of you brothers and sisters who are out there to help us all cope with our struggle and I pray that the light will get brighter.

Hi JJ
Question, would it be alright to order a braclet over the phone? I don’t usually like to order things over the Internet . I was thinking of using your number that you list on this site for info purposes . Thanks.

You are not actually “ordering” anything per se. I don’t want/need your credit card info as it is completely free. What I do need is your name and address, and the best way for me to get it is through the online form. It simply sends me the info you type as an email so I can copy and paste it into a label and then I will ship out your TTATT bracelet.

This helps me remember who I’ve mailed these to and who I haven’t yet- which is very necessary as my memory is not the greatest!

JJ
Thank you for the link to the definition of “eisegesis”. I had no idea, this word existed, and it really is right on target, as regards to one of the tactics used to explain many articles in the watchtower magazine, in my personal observation over 35 plus years, especially legalistic articles where there has been an attempt to impose law on conscience matters.

Thanks for another brilliant and encouraging article JJ… I think so many are having doubts now and those of us that have ‘woken up’ and learned TTATT can help them in their struggle. Really appreciate all your hard work bro!

This “brillant and encouraging” article and the accompanying video reminds me of the words: “For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories” 2 Timothy 4:3,4.

Skyrainbow, “Healthful teaching” is surely one that is free from hypocrisy and is out in the open. You of all people have repeatedly come on to sites like this and, presumably, have read TTAT. Only the most naive could carry on like you do. Only a mind driven by cultish loyalty could behave as you do, knowing what you know.

Tell us then, WHY you think the WTBTS HAS NOT engaged in coverups, and ‘justified’ lying. Amuse us. And most of all – why you prefer the ‘noble lie’ to cold hard truth (the real stuff).

Would you be willing to explain why you feel that this scripture applies? I personally have not set myself up “as a teacher to tickle the ears of anyone” on this website. I am not above anyone else and certainly do not have the knowledge and experience that a number of other commenters here have.

It is my blog, this is true, and I take responsibility for what I put on it, and I stand behind the articles and opinions that I write about. Here are some questions I hope you can answer:

• In what ways have we at JWStruggle “turned aside to false stories”?
• What “healthful teaching” are we not putting up with?
• How are brothers and sisters that visit here having “their ears tickled”?

These questions are not asked sarcastically, but in humility. Share your opinions and feelings with us as to why you quoted the scripture in 2 Timothy 4:3,4 when you have time.

Hi JJ. Some who are presently on your site have known Skyrainbow (we think it’s a woman)from her postings on other sites. Her remonstrations ultimately have no more value than graffiti. Her purpose seems to be to deface what you’re trying to do here. I would dearly love to know her answers to the questions you pose, but from our experience she simply has none.

We don’t often come across sprayed-on Scriptural graffiti. Her ‘artistry’ is probably the first.

Yes, I agree Skyrainbow…we had our ears tickled and listened to the false stories by the WT but not because of our own desires but because we were misled. Now we have gone back to the healthful teachings of God’s word alone and not that of man.

Yea Skyrainbow (on a side note btw google sky cake joke by patton oswalt it is hilarious) please tell us how we are wrong using only the scriptures and not any literature. If you are going to these sites you must be curious you must have doubts as we all did, otherwise you really should’nt be on these sites if you are so convinced, we are doing what we feel is right by reading the bible and letting the holy spirit guide us our salvation depends on Jehovah’s opinion on us not your’s not the friends’ and most certainly not the governing body’s. I have never been told to not go to the meeting by Brother Eric of any of the people who contribute to this blog and I as well as quite a few of the others here am not reproved or disfellowshipped my own step gradfather claimed to be of the annointed class my father is an elder and I until recently served as a ministerial servant and I came to this site and just a handful of others to make sense of it all to not be so angry with THOSE WHO HAVE LIED TO US.

JJ
Thanks for answering my question. But I got another one requiring bracletts, we don ‘t have mail delivery to our resident, except by UPS, but will have mail delivered to post box. May I type in Post box address instead of resident on your order form?

CMaka”Fidel”, you really believe these bracelets ‘are not being distributed to have people ask what it means’? For who is then the inscription “Do you know TTATT?
Real Jehovah’s Witnesses do not need yellow bracelets to let their light shine and to be identified as Gods servants. The 8 million loyal JW let their light shine by having love among themselves (John 13:35)and their preaching of the good news of Gods Kingdom, as JESUS COMMANDED (Matthew 24:14; 28:19,20)

Disappointed, why are you changing the words in Gods Holy Scriptures? Paul says that some will accumulate (new) teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled in accord with THEIR OWN DESIRES and not because they were misled. You are misled NOW by believing and obeying the worldwide lobby of apostates.
For sincere persons it is still possible to return to Jehovah and his people. “Do let us search out our ways and explore them, and let us return clear to Jehovah” Lamentations 3:40.

@Skyrainbow… because you were using the scriptures to imply that the ‘healthful teachings’ come from the WT Organisation, when in fact the healthful teachings come from God’s word alone. The scriptures are inspired of God, the WT is not.
For your information I have not left Jehovah or his people. I have merely come to understand that the WT Organisation is NOT God’s channel of communication. The channel of communication is God’s own Holy Spirit.

Hi friends I am not a JW and never liked any of it since my parents changed when I was 7. Even at a young age I saw right through the garbage. Now I’m 42 and my parents and sister are still JW. It has bothered me for years now it is really got me in mental anguish as my family has minimal involvement with me or my 2 children. I have tried to shed the light but it is hopeless. I have seen all the untruths as I forcibly went to the meetings when I was a minor. I always knew something was not right. I hope someday that wall WTBTS collapses. So many families lives ruined I love God but want to freely worship in my own way. Thanks so much friends!

Following what Dissapointed said i feel the same way if you wanna b a jw go ahead i will not stop you or anybody from becoming one i just know better and i do not slander their names in public i love the bros n sisters if i were to b asked what the bracelet means i would say it is something meaningful only to a group of us and it is something private. I learned TTATT by reading the bible and scientific/historical facts I don’t read “apostate” literature and that love u speak of i know quite a bit of jws who are kind and sincere and follow what the bible says but even u skycake i mean skyrainbow can’t deny the fake people who ommit their or their close ones sins or those that spread rumors or are fake pioneers or are so judgemental of other members the same faults we find in other religions and all “worldly” people you find at the kingdom hall as well and that is what drove me away and let me re assess my beliefs and the dfd ones thar never come back its because that love is conditional.

Where were the calls when i was fighting cancer? Instead i was deleted as a MS for not going to the meetings regularly i did not sin, i just was not a ball player either and calles the elders on the injustices as well.Kept getting called in cause of rumors n etc. When many around me were ommiting their sins. I do not and never speak wrong about my brothers even those who are up to no good only god can judge them but i know of many sincere brothers that do follow Jehovah’s commands but we are no different from the “worldly” people or those from the “false” religion we talk in a negative way about with rumors and favoritism and sin ommitting and stealing and child molesters. Even then I dare not speak about my brothers if i were to be asked by a non jw about my bracelet iI will not stop people from going to the meetings or becoming a jw I and many others here just know better….

JJ, after being many years an elder you are very fast with your judgments and conclusions.

A farmer had a big dog and a small boy. One day before going into the field he told his dog to keep an eye on his boy. While the farmer was away working, a wolf came. When the dog saw the wolf, he quickly hid the boy in the house, then he went outside and fought with the wolf. The wolf hurt the dog, but could not kill him. After a while the wolf gave up and went back to the woods.

Now when the farmer returned, he at once noticed blood all over the dog, but he could not see his son. Thinking the dog had killed the boy, he shot the dog. Imagine how the farmer felt when he went inside and found the boy, who told him what really happened!

I did not judge you nor jump to conclusions, and never will. I asked (in sincerity) for you to please answer some questions regarding the scripture you quoted. I still hope you will do that to clarify your stand.

I think I had a TTATT moment. I was just thinking that maybe one of the more honest things the WTBTS , and the legal corporation which includes the GB, did was,not list Jehovah’s name formally in legal terms in the title WTBTS. That should have been a clue for me years ago. Better late than never.

(1486.4) 134:4.1 The brotherhood of men is founded on the fatherhood of God. The family of God is derived from the love of God — God is love. God the Father divinely loves his children, all of them.

(1486.5) 134:4.2 The kingdom of heaven, the divine government, is founded on the fact of divine sovereignty — God is spirit. Since God is spirit, this kingdom is spiritual. The kingdom of heaven is neither material nor merely intellectual; it is a spiritual relationship between God and man.

(1486.6) 134:4.3 If different religions recognize the spirit sovereignty of God the Father, then will all such religions remain at peace. Only when one religion assumes that it is in some way superior to all others, and that it possesses exclusive authority over other religions, will such a religion presume to be intolerant of other religions or dare to persecute other religious believers.

(1487.1) 134:4.4 Religious peace — brotherhood — can never exist unless all religions are willing to completely divest themselves of all ecclesiastical authority and fully surrender all concept of spiritual sovereignty. God alone is spirit sovereign.

(1487.2) 134:4.5 You cannot have equality among religions (religious liberty) without having religious wars unless all religions consent to the transfer of all religious sovereignty to some superhuman level, to God himself.

(1487.3) 134:4.6 The kingdom of heaven in the hearts of men will create religious unity (not necessarily uniformity) because any and all religious groups composed of such religious believers will be free from all notions of ecclesiastical authority — religious sovereignty.

(1487.4) 134:4.7 God is spirit, and God gives a fragment of his spirit self to dwell in the heart of man. Spiritually, all men are equal. The kingdom of heaven is free from castes, classes, social levels, and economic groups. You are all brethren.

(1487.5) 134:4.8 But the moment you lose sight of the spirit sovereignty of God the Father, some one religion will begin to assert its superiority over other religions; and then, instead of peace on earth and good will among men, there will start dissensions, recriminations, even religious wars, at least wars among religionists.

(1487.6) 134:4.9 Freewill beings who regard themselves as equals, unless they mutually acknowledge themselves as subject to some supersovereignty, some authority over and above themselves, sooner or later are tempted to try out their ability to gain power and authority over other persons and groups. The concept of equality never brings peace except in the mutual recognition of some overcontrolling influence of supersovereignty. (end of quote)

In view of the statements you have made Skyrainbow,
this speaks for itself when it comes to the truth.

The organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses including it’s legal entity, the (Watchtower society) actually enforce unity through uniformity as most beast-like organizations do today.

But real unity comes through the spirit of which generates the “kingdom of heaven” in the hearts of men, which comes from God the Father.

It does not come about through any imperfect earthly organization, that is for sure.

Frank, when I am quoting a scripture you are unhappy. When I am using an illustratiuon you are even more unhappy. I am afraid your heart has been poisened by the unloving spirit so prevalent during these last days.

I am so sorry for sincere persons who got lost on these sites. Peter warns christians “Keep your sences, be watchful. Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 1 Peter 5:8
Since lions are stronger and faster than humans, we should not try to fight or outrun Satan in our own strength. We need Jehovah’s help. And we must avoid the spriritual darkness in which Satan seeks his prey.

skyrainbow, if you desire any credibility you must answer JJ’s questions. You still haven’t done so. They are:

• In what ways have we at JWStruggle “turned aside to false stories”?
• What “healthful teaching” are we not putting up with?
• How are brothers and sisters that visit here having “their ears tickled”?

Thank you, Andrew. it isn’t hard to see Skyrainbow’s superficiality for what it is.

There’s nothing noble about quoting Scripture, Skyrainbow – even the Devil can do that. By doing so you are only attempting to infect others with YOUR interpretation of Scripture and with this and your predilection for fable, you are patronising a site full of intelligent people. The fact that you can only tell children’s stories and mimic WT propaganda, shows that you likely are not in the same IQ bracket.

Please revise your teaching ‘skills’ and at least credit us with at least being adults in need of a piece of actual information from time to time.

I think you DON’T WANT TO ANSWER because, either you can’t without tripping yourself up, or because the questions are too hard for you intellectually. Take your pick; either’s fine as far as I’m concerned.

skyrainbow: I am so sorry for sincere persons who got lost on these sites. Peter warns christians “Keep your sences, be watchful. Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 1 Peter 5:8Since lions are stronger and faster than humans, we should not try to fight or outrun Satan in our own strength. We need Jehovah’s help. And we must avoid the spriritual darkness in which Satan seeks his prey.

In my experience and reading and listening to the many experiences of others the are “lost” before coming to these site because of the poor treatment or the teachings that seem not quite right within the WTBS itself. We come to these sites to learn and research what really is going on. We follow references made to determine if people are making things up or if what we learn is really the truth.
The Devil, if anything, has used all organized religion to draw those away from the real message of Christ. Do you “skyrainbow” know where Pastor Russel got his ideas from and how he came up with 1914? If you do then you are probably like most Witnesses and dismiss it. But that is the foundation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and if that is bad…the whole building of beliefs is a lie. Who is the father of the lie?
I am not sure why you are here. That would be interesting. Maybe send me a private tell. What do you wish to acomplish? Are you counting time for your posts here and on there sites? Dont laugh, some have told me they do in my hall.
Most of us here if not all believe in God and read the bible for the true way to live a christian life as Jesus our Savior taught. The darkness is not here but within the walls of your own Kingdom Hall. You are told not to visit sites outside JW.ORG, but here you are. Why do you disobey?

With respect to JJ, and giving him casting vote, I would like to enquire how the majority of genuine bloggers here feel about disfellowshipping and shunning Skyrainbow from at least this blog page if not the entire site.

I feel this is necessary, not just because Skyrainbow will not open any meaningful discussion (insisting only on “preaching to the perverted” as Apostle to the Apostates), but because I feel she could learn a valuable lesson or two.

Do we have at least a three-person judicial committee that sit in judgement upon her to help her mind to be readjusted and ‘encourage’ her to comply fully with the requirement at least to have something useful to say?

Stumbled upon your Youtube videos and just want to say that I think what you are doing is incredibly brave and hopefully can help a lot of people. My mother-in-law is a practicing Witness in Brazil, and I wanted to learn more about what the Jehovas Witness movement is about. Anyway, watching your video you said that you had this feeling of being unplugged (in a positive sense) when you started to disassociate yourself from the teachings of JW. You said that after years of weekly meetings, their teachings just didn’t hold water anymore. From what I have gathered so far from your videos, you are still a Christian. Being an atheist myself I couldn’t help to feel “dissapointed” (sorry for lack of a better word) that you haven’t gone one step farther and “left” religion completely. I think that if you were to evaluate any religion the same way you have done with JW, you will find that none of them hold water. Being an atheist will not make you an immoral or evil person, you’ll still know what’s what. Atheism will however allow you to accept reality for what it is, based on the latest discoveries and knowledge, not force you to twist reality (or twist your perception of reality) to fit the dogma of any religion (which are all man made, based on the knowledge and prejudice which were prevalent at the the time they were written). Anyway, keep up the good work. This is truly not meant as an attack letter. This letter is written in the same spirit as this website is made, to pull the wool from your eyes. I understand it’s a huge leap of (non) faith to abandon all religion completely but if anyone can do it it’s you. You seem to be a great guy, and will continue to be a great guy even if you keep your faith. Best Regards from Sweden.

Thanks for the kind words and positivity Mathias! I love God and what Jesus do for me and all of us in dying for our sins. To me, there is NO WAY that we all just randomly popped up on planet earth from random molecules. I don’t believe it and feel it would take more faith to believe in that than a designer. Also, the Bible (particularly Jesus’ words in the Gospels) is a book of wisdom, filled with things that teach us how to be better people.

But regardless, I am in no position to judge you or anyone else and have vowed not to be a judgmental person like I used to be when I was caught up in the JW religion. I will continue to question, and continue to seek for knowledge and I will never hold back from researching and looking at all sides of an issue and not letting men tell me what to believe.

Before banned eventually from this site I want to explain why I am posting on that kind of sites.

It was in 2009 after I read the following posting in the Washington Post.
“I am not bitter although I am a disfellowshipped Jehovah’s Witness. I brought this on myself. Like many organizations in order to belong, you live by the guidelines and bylaws. I chose to be a Jehovah’s Witness and therefore agreed to live by those expectations. In my not doing so, I have reaped what I had sown. Is this the JWs fault? No, it is mine. I take full responsibility and accept the consequences. All actions in our lives have a result, good or bad. We are well educated, we know the “rules” in order to keep the congregation clean and not be like most other religions where watever you do is fine, just keep making those donation.
I plan to be back in the congregation one day soon. I’m not quite there yet but that is my goal. Why is it my goal? Because they have the Truth of the Bible. No one has ever been able to show me anything different from the scriptures. I have tried many faiths and realize they are the only ones that taught me and regularly use God’s name Jehovah. They are the only ones to make sence of what the Kingdom is. The only ones to explain the Ransom Sacrifice fully.
Is it their right to disfellowship those not keeping with the Christian teachings of Jesus? Why not?
The JWs do not break up families. We do it to ourselves. I have four amazing, married children. Do they currently speak to me? No. Would I expect them to? No.
We are only human, Jehovah and Jesus read hearts. The final judgmlent will be theirs. But currently, the job of keeping the organization clean is left to imperfect men who try very hard to be successful in their assignment”

Do you understand now why I believe there are here also sincere persons? And why I am trying to help them realize in what for dangerous situation they are for the moment? Im not here for discussions or answering questions.

Skyrainbow I have no intention of banning ANYONE from this site if they conduct themselves like you. I don’t agree with all your viewpoints, but that’s okay. I feel the brothers and sisters that come here have a right to agree or disagree with you and decide for themselves. You are welcome to “preach” here, and as far as I’m concerned, you can even count your time!

Many here and on other sites left the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses, because they are lovers of truth.

Jesus once made a statement about digging for buried treasure (the truth) and (spiritual things).

Matthew 13
44 ¶ Again, the kingdom of Heaven is compared to treasure being hidden in the field, which finding, a man hid; and for the joy of it, he goes and sells all things, as many as he has, and buys that field.
45 Again, the kingdom of Heaven is compared to a man, a merchant seeking excellent pearls;

Think about what these two verse really do mean.

Some here and many others elsewhere, have sacrificed a lot including family for discovery of the real buried treasure, that is the truth which is incorporated in the “Kingdom of Heaven”.

Oh, trust me, Skyrainbow, it was my pleasure. Finally brought you to your senses, didn’t it? Now we have something to work with.

The mistake you make in your relaying such information, though I’m grateful that you finally have, is that we know nothing of this person’s circumstances behind the comments. If you have more information, please share it.

Has he/she committed adultery or has he just publicly said he disagrees with a WT policy?

Keeping the congregation clean will ONLY become sinister when people are disfellowshipped on doctrinal (policy is also taught as doctrine)whims, such as righteous indignation over the so-called ‘child protection policy.’ I use inverted commas here because there is almost NO PROTECTION for the child as has been made clear from documentation and experiences many give. The damage becomes all the more real when one realises that the policy is not based on anything Biblically-concrete. In other words, though it’s enforced, it is ethically unworkable.

Have you even read the transcripts on ACTUAL judicial cases suggested yet, Skyrainbow? The Bible lays NO FOUNDATION for the system employed that brings these cases about, and Christ’s own view of his enemies has been poisoned with the obsessional drive for forced doctrinal unity.

Yes, you are right, when clearly-indicated Biblical crimes (sins) have been committed, the WTBTS is not responsible for broken families and the like. These are usually open-and-close cases (either he/she did it or they didn’t – “apostasy” isn’t). If this person you quote is repentant, he craves those things he once had. This is normal and may even be deserved.

But your naive trust that it is not possible for “God’s organisation” to do real damage to great number of people is just that – naive.

It is said that when convicts go to jail, eventually they stop protesting their innocence eventually when they know they are guilty. Why do you think the Internet has become the natural predator of the WTBTS? Because innocence can now be proved outside this employed religious system by producing the evidence in the ‘court of public opinion’ with more than just anecdotes.

Just with the UN Scandal alone, sufficient documented evidence can be produced to expose the prideful attitude of those who feel so secure in their position that they feel untouchable, yet organisationally they will relentlessly pursue those suspected even for THINKING beliefs “contrary to the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses” (the doctrines of the WT)!

Was this what Jesus envisaged for his followers?

Paul said:

(2 Corinthians 1:24) “. . .Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.” (NWT)

I advise you to get an education from more objective sources, Skyrainbow, before you judge the hurting, and sometimes bitter, people here.

No one is in danger here if God’s quality of love is truly predominant. If he crushes the crushed, then I guess we have our answer.

Skyrainbow: “Do you understand now why I believe there are here also sincere persons? And why I am trying to help them realize in what for dangerous situation they are for the moment? Im not here for discussions or answering questions.”

Can I suggest then, Sky, that you stop talking AT people by, charitably – questioning, their intelligent ability to understand the simplistic things you’re saying, and tell us directly what is on your mind. Your stories do not salve the very real pain people are feeling. Frankly (pun intended), your attempts at ‘illustrations’ are patronising. When someone wants to discuss things you become vague. How does this ‘help’ people?

How many people here do you believe genuinely accept that WTBTS’s ‘mistakes’ are merely due to human imperfection?

Do you know what it’s like to lose a loved one in spiritual death because they slipped due to lack of shepherding?

Do you hurt enough to empathise with any who have felt desperate enough to find solace with like-minded people, Skyrainbow?

What exactly are your credentials, anyway? Do you have a degree in psychology? Perhaps you’ve studied comparative religions?

Simply preaching your Message of Doom to those already crushed will help in what way, exactly, Skyrainbow?

There you go being mystical again, Skyrainbow. The way you’re going about your ‘ministry’ doesn’t adorn anything. Did Jesus go around implying everyone was an apostate. Then come the fables – don’t trivialise people’s circumstances and feelings.

Heal the sins committed against these people and then encourage them to return if that is what you must do. This is not an ‘apostate’ site, it is one where people can talk. People are not drawn to elitist drivvle.

skyrainbow you need help, lots of help. by your comments we can see you are completely blinded by wts teachings. You are disfellowshipped by men who are committed the same exact sins that you have committed and they are stil active elders in good standard in the cogregation. Before you plan to go back. Ask yourself is it worth it? Are you going back for your friends and family or to serve Jehovah. All the glory is given to the GB not Jehovah. If someone is looking for a place to worship Jehovah God the only true God, WTBTS is certainly NOT the right place to go.

Skyrainbow I see that you think you are trying to help those who are lost, but we are not lost we have found The Truth and unfortunately we have been lied to and all the good and the truths we have learned at our meetings, conventions or assemblies are outweighed by them. I once felt like you did I use to comment on websites like this and some of the brothers and sisters commenting on this subject I said some mean things to them but I know they have forgiven me. I too had blinded myself I too did not want to see the facts and once you see them as well skyrainbow as I did you too will be inspired to help others in their struggle But even you cannot tell me you too have not seen injustices and this person you mentioned that wanted to come back that is fine by us however I know of many that don’t come back, I know one who almost commited suicide she was my bffs sister and I really in my heart believe she did commit a df’ing sin however there was alot of jealousy and anymosity towards her and her family for doing well in the cong and moneywise, that is just one of the many cases I know of and people who have been hurt learn TTATT and no longer feel the pain and actually live happy lives and move on and that is what this is it helps all of us struggling to make sense of it all and learn to move on and by that I mean whatever you feel you must do, some keep going or once againg start going to the meetings and listen to the good just to stay with their families, others fade away as I have to get away from it all and start anew, others never come back because it is what they feel is best we all have a story to tell and we all have a choice and only Jehovah can judge us and when Armaggeddon does come if it does in our lifetime I am sure if you make it you will be surprised to find alot of us and others who do pass into the New World.

Smartlady, please read my reaction N° 34 very carefully. So you will see, I am not the person who is, or was disfellowshipped.

And I can assure you, thanks to the devote brothers of the Faithful and Discreet Slave, I WORSHIP ONLY JEHOVAH, the only true God.

Don’t think I hate disfellowshipped persons. I even don’t hate apostates. But I hate their new goal in life, bashing their former brothers. I am not happy with their ungratefulness. They forgot how much they know thanks to these loyal servants of God. Even now they are using their sites and publications. Never heard of the dog that bites the hand that has always fed him?

Skyrainbow based on your comments it seems you are mentally retarded or you did not have a chance to finish High school. go on line or in a dictionnary look for the right spelling of “SENSES”. WTBTS can only fool people like you. By the way based on WTBTS 1914 prophecy can you tell me Jesus’ accomplishments for his almost 100 years of his “invisible reign?

Skyrainbow, I called for your ‘disfellowshipping’ from this site because I don’t believe you have anything to offer people here. You have set yourself up as a maverick who has gone directly against the policy of your masters. The GB, as JimmyG quoted, have said in the publications you so lionise, that sites like this are considered ‘apostate.’

The tone of your comments are a direct assault on emotionally and spiritually damaged people. If you do insist on staying, I would like to suggest you try to follow the methods employed by the founder of Christianity. Pouring scorn on those you claim are objects of your agape love simply will not convince anyone – least of all those you believe you are authorised to save.

Or is this just easy time for your report card?

At least tell us your gender so others can pay out on their sweepstakes. Ta

comment-13127″>skyrainbow: CM, I hope and wish from the bottom of my heart, you and others here will pass into the New World. But it will be not with a yellow bracelet”. And who are you to say that we won’t skyrainbow did Jehovah speak to you directly? Only Jehovah not you not any imperfect man and their interpretation of Gods words

you will find that the account that so inspired you was in the comments, not the article.

I also found this there (note the source):

“NOTE TO OPPOSERS:

Jehovah’s Witnesses represent individuals
from all walks of life around the world who
have voluntarily left the churches of Christendom, Judaism, Islam, and virtually all other religions, despite the sometimes intense criticism from friends and family or even physical persecution(often the influence of religious leaders)because we are lovers of truth.

Jesus Christ prophesied about and commanded
his congregation (church) to preach the
“good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” (Matt. 24:14, 28:19)

Jehovah’s Witnesses are an army of over 7,000,000 tried and tested pillars of spiritual fortitude, spending over 1,000,000,000 (billion) hours per year canvasing with a unified message regarding The Good News Of The Kingdom as Christ commanded his TRUE followers to do.

The reason so many others have been relegated to “drive-by comments” on the internet directed at Jehovah’s Witnesses, is because the apostate “Church” has never, or will ever implement a means
for them to preach the “Good News Of The Kingdom” in a united & dignified, way as Christ’s followers did, and continue to do today.

There is a storm approaching the likes of which this world has ever nor will ever experience again.

In light of how critical the times are,
there offers itself no other right course
than for all to repent, while there is still time, and return to the “Shepherd of your souls”.

Interestingly, here are two very ironic extracts from the article on this site:

“The precedents set by Jehovah’s Witnesses in the 1940s helped pioneer the modern civil rights movement for other unpopular groups who sought Constitutional equality: women, people of color, gays and lesbians.”

“Some argue Jehovah’s Witnesses do not deserve fair treatment since they don’t embrace total free speech or equality within their own membership: gay marriage is forbidden, women are not allowed to be religious leaders or teach congregants, members who insist on breaking the moral code or changing doctrine are subject to expulsion and shunning. Yet a number of major world religions follow the same policies. What if a free and democratic nation, as Russia claims to be, banned the Catholic Church?”

Skyrainbow, it becomes obvious that you see this article as demonstrating the strength of divine will supporting the actions of the WTBTS. Read it more objectively and you’ll find that it is the fear of losing EVERYONE’S First Amendment Rights that the article is about. JWs are the subject because old Russian ethics are being examined here. Should we attribute the extended rights of gays, lesbians to actions of God? Surely this would be self-contradictory!

The writer also claims that under First Amendment Rights religions should not be interfered with even when the religion fails to respect the First Amendment rights of the individuals within their own ranks. This is moot as it could only technically happen in America because of its almost unique Constitution with its requirement of separation between chruch and state. While other Western countries may respect religious freedom, there is no legal restriction placed on government involvement where deemed necessary.

As they are finding out now – Does this ‘freedom’ also apply to protecting paedophiles from being prosecuted and punished by the secular authorities on the technicality that there is a ‘non-interference’ clause on a document that is held sacred?

Governments are bound by their own law to govern the people. Children are entitled to the same human rights of genuine protection as any other person within the boundaries of a country.

At some stage humanity will wake up to the fact that EXTREME shunning, disfellowshipping someone for even having UNAUTHORISED THOUGHTS, and treating sexual child abuse as SIN rather that a secular crime, is actually the very opposite of governing and observing basic human rights of citizens due the protection of common law.

Frank, why so nervous and agressive?
The last days you are so knotty, complicated and confused. You became even the greatest supporter of the practice of disfellowshipping!
I never said it was an article or story that I cited in my reaction n° 34 but a POSTING of someone who was disfellowshipped.
So, read first carefully what other posters really say before reacting.
And calm down Frank.
I repeat the following six quick ways to regain you calm.
1.Take a walk
2.Take a breath
3.Try progressive muscle relaxation
4.Take a mental break
5.Reframe your situation (very important)
6.Ask Jehovah to help you to stay calm (the most important)
“The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, selfcontrol” Galatians 5:22,23

Skyrainbow, you are sounding like a broken record. This patronising crap has been posted many times and it was lame the first time.

As you are particularly naive, you obviously missed my point, as you often do. You said you saw a posting IN the Washington Post. Either intentionally or naively it could appear to others that this person’s posting had had their story included IN an article in the WP. This would be taken as adding authority to your claims. It does not as it was a COMMENT made by a supporter of the WTBTS. I suspected this was the case because you would have picked up this propaganda method directly from the WTBTS itself.

Again, your naivety shows by your not getting the irony of my calling for you to be disfellowshipped. It was an object lesson for YOU; a chance to feel what it is like to be rejected and abandoned. Obviously it didn’t work. This is to be expected.

This point is this: That article that you use (as the basis for your preaching campaign here) drew others who were likewise ‘inspired’ to renew their vows to God, but the premise was simply misunderstood. There were just as many, if not more, commenters at the end of that article, who rejected what appeared to be praise for the WTBTS. Don’t forget that, Skyrainbow.

Engardio, if you research his Wikipedia bio, shows that he is a civil rights campaigner. Amnesty International too is not a religious organisation either, they will help people whose rights have been violated whatever their professions. There is no reason to think that he here wishes to place the WTBTS on a pedestal; just to acknowledge a religious right to free speech and action. We are all involved in this issue.

The double standard the WTBTS applies is that it uses the UN to retain control over its own religious rights and then deems it godly to trample on the same rights of its own disciples to an EXTREME level in violation of THEIR human rights! There is nothing loving or godly about that.

You could do with applying some of the fruitage of the spirit, occasionally, but like your mentors, you too are not averse to applying double standards.

Skyrainbow, I thought you would like to see that at least one person sees good in what I do, though I speak very directly. Ruth, you should also take a lesson from Shannon:

“shannon January 23, 2013 at 8:40 pm
Magusknight..what a beautiful comment, I had to let you know that

I really needed to hear something like that right now, I am still suffering from bitterness and wanting revenge, but what would that serve right. I know it will take to time heal and carry on and really find a fulfilling life but its people like you and Frank and Cedars that have helped me this far.

Smartlady, thank you for your compliments. Personally, I empathize and respect mentally retarded persons, as Jehovah does.
“Jehovah is near to those that are broken at heart. And those who are crushed in spirit he saves”. Psalm 34:18
So, don’t use those precious ones in Jehovah’s eyes for your name calling.

JimmyG, who is leading a double life, loves to emphasize I was banned on JW Survey. This is a real apostate site and I am afraid that the moderators of that site important instruments are of Gog of Magog, who is preparing his last attack on Jehovah’s people. Read in Ezekiel 38:22,23 what Jehovah will do with ‘Satan and his bands and the many people that will be with him’

Skyrainbow, your comment to Smartlady is very telling. Your self-respect has wondered drunkenly into arrogance and made good friends.

In fact, you were kicked off JW Survey because it became obvious that you had no respect for anybody but yourself. You use the Divine Name as a front to tell the world of your own self-righteousness. The righteous (self…in your case) do not need a physicians, so why are you here? You don’t have to pretend any more that you hold spiritual healing qualifications.

We’ve already got the point that you don’t want to wear a yellow bracelet. And we now have the true depth of your heart – that you believe this is an apostate site and an instrument of the Devil; what more do you have to say? How worse can your insults get?

Why aren’t ALL the publications of the WTBTS available to the friends? No lie originates with the truth, so why not make all information available? There is no justification for God’s one true channel out of all the earth, the most truthful organization that ever existed, to withhold information. Why can’t we study Hebrew and Greek.

Why would the God of truth direct his Organization to be anything less than 100% honest? Why would the legal representatives of Christs’ brothers, who are Elders, swear to speak the truth in a court of God’s appointed ” Superior Authorities “, and then lie?

Why would the most spiritually insightful and humble people in ALL history, the Faithful and discreet slave/Governing Body ( according to the latest IDEA) who do not claim infallibility, or direct communication with God, admit to making mistakes yet require unquestioning obedience with the threat of disfellowshipping if you or I have private beliefs?

How could the most spiritual of men on the face of the earth not discern their own identity for decades, yet pass judgment on others for not believing every teaching unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. How could the very stars in Jesus’ right hand say under oath, in court, that Jehovah’s witnesses are a hierarchy just like the Catholic Church? How could these ” stars ” state under oath, in court, that The Governing Body does not exist as individuals, but only as a theological arrangement?

Why would the most humble men on earth fear other men and women who openly profess their loyalty to Christ Jesus, the God appointed head of the Universe, instead of men? Your Answer?

Spike, your questions are rhetorical and do not need answers, though I would like Skyrainbow to try. In a round about way, here’s an answer to all the questions you pose:

“A traditional religion, one built on “right belief,” requires a closed information system. That is why the Catholic Church put an official seal of approval on some ancient texts and banned or burned others. It is why some Bible-believing Christians are forbidden to marry nonbelievers. It is why Quiverfull moms home school their kids from carefully screened text books. It is why, when you get sucked into conversations with your fundamentalist uncle George from Florida, you sometimes wonder if he has some superpower that allows him to magically close down all avenues into his mind. (He does!)

“Religions have spent eons honing defenses that keep outside information away from insiders. The innermost ring wall is a set of certainties and associated emotions like anxiety and disgust and righteous indignation that block curiosity. The outer wall is a set of behaviors aimed at insulating believers from contradictory evidence and from heretics who are potential transmitters of dangerous ideas. These behaviors range from memorizing sacred texts to wearing distinctive undergarments to killing infidels. Such defenses worked beautifully during humanity’s infancy. But they weren’t really designed for the current information age.”

Religion may not survive the Internet
by Valerie Tarico posted on January 17, 2013 05:08AM GMT

The point is, Spike, that we no longer have to have our intelligences insulted. The Internet has made the methodologies of such organisations available for all to examine, making it possible for the disaffected to “storm the Bastille” without stepping out of their houses – now that’s progress! Letter-headed faxes and email from the UN can be placed online and we have a genuine court of public opinion where we can be the jury to examine the EVIDENCE. All claims then become just that. If we choose to go on blindly and “loyally” believing, our faith turns into naivety.

I don’t think anyone is going to build a statue to Skyrainbow, somehow.

Wow Spike that was good, those were a few of the questions I had that led me to find TTATT. Why so many secrets? Why df those that question a few, not all, doctrines? If only we could all stand up in public and speak these truths.

C M:
Wow Spike that was good, those were a few of the questions I had that led me to find TTATT. Why so many secrets? Why df those that question a few, not all, doctrines? If only we could all stand up in public and speak these truths.

Ditto CM, Spike has asked some good ones. Problem is, they won’t get answered.
Amos

Jesus said: “But he that has endured to the end is the one that will saved” Matthew 24:13.
To illustrate this I will tell a story that Frank and Jimmy surely will appreciate.
Two frogs jumped into a bucket of cream on a diary farm.
“May as well give up” croaked one, after trying in vain to get out. “We’re goners!”
“Keep on paddling” said the other frog. We’ll get out of this somehow!”
“It’s no use,” said the first. “Too thick to swim, too thin to jump, too slippery to crawl. We’re bound to die sometime anyway, so it may as well be tonight.” He sank to the bottem of the bucket and drowned.
His friend just kept paddling…and paddling…and paddling…
By morning he was perched on a mass of butter he had churned all by himself. And he jumped out of the bucket. That little frog had discovered what some here ignore: if you stick with the task long enough, you are going to be a winner!

What shall we do when we experience various trials and problems?
Some give it up like that frog and get lost on sites like this one and drown spiritually with their yellow bracelet.
The great majority, almost 8 million, wait for Jehovah’s day with endurance and undiminished faith. So, keep on pursuing the will of Jehovah!

JJ, respectfully,another troll has been banned from JW Survey. Why do you put up with this condescending crap?

People like Skyrainbow come here, not to discuss, but to preach.

This sort of stuff is totally irrational as it tries simply to trivialise peoples deep emotions and create more anxiety by preaching condemnation. It can have the opposite effect that naive cultish slaves like the above example thinks will happen due to their haphazard and dangerous methodology.

You have just given the perfect illustration of my own situation. I was in that bucket of milk (the WTS) for 59 years. It was my enduance in paddling (against the rising tide as the bucket filled)as hard as I did, for as long as I did, that allowed me to “make enough butter” to be able to jump right out of the org. & into a freedom in Christ that is almost impossible while in the “bucket of milk”.

You see, I didn’t drown in the false doctines, neither did I drown in the constant “flip-flopping” that can only happen when God’s Word & Love has been sidestepped by an ever growing barrage of “man-made” doctrines. Nor did I drown in the “love-less” dictatorial stance that the so-called GB/FDS has seemingly been able to get away with for far too many years….BUT the “day of reckoning” is fast aproaching.

Hab 2:1 I will stand on my watch and set myself on the tower, and will watch to see what He will say to me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.
Hab 2:2 And Jehovah answered me and said, Write the vision, and make it plain on the tablets, that he who reads it may run.
Hab 2:3 For the vision is still for an appointed time, but it speaks to the end, and it does not lie. Though it lingers, wait for it; because it will surely come. It will not tarry.
Hab 2:4 Behold, the soul of him is lifted up, and is not upright; but the just shall live by his faith.

Please take particular notice of verse 3…”For the vision is still for an appointed time, but it speaks to the end, and it does not lie. Though it lingers, wait for it; because it will surely come. It will not tarry.”
And verse 4b…..”the just shall live by his faith”.

Amos, is this true, it took you 59 years to see you were wrong?
Amazing.
If you lived in the first century the apostle Paul would ask you: “My dear Amos, you were running well for 59 years. Who hindered you from keeping and obeying the truth?” Galatians 5:7.

skyrainbow:
Amos, is this true, it took you 59 years to see you were wrong?
Amazing.
If you lived in the first century the apostle Paul would ask you: “My dear Amos, you were running well for 59 years.Who hindered you from keeping and obeying the truth?” Galatians 5:7.

Oh no Sky,
You have misunderstood me, it has taken me 59 years to see that the WTS was wrong. You see, the WTS you refered to is the “bucket of milk” that I have been very fortunate to be able to jump out of. Sad to say, you are still floundering in that bucket.

BTW, I don’t follow Paul, I belong to Christ who has lovingly freed me from a false & wicked organization.

“skyrainbow says:
January 24, 2013 at 5:27 pm
JimmyG, who is leading a double life, loves to emphasize I was banned on JW Survey. This is a real apostate site and I am afraid that the moderators of that site important instruments are of Gog of Magog, who is preparing his last attack on Jehovah’s people. Read in Ezekiel 38:22,23 what Jehovah will do with ‘Satan and his bands and the many people that will be with him’”

I’m wondering why this person is still allowed to invade this site. Above a set of uncontrolled insults, either inferred or directed, have been posted as a deliberate insult to the people here.

Common sense should tell us this is a raving lunatic simply by the terminology she uses. I don’t see why this foaming-at-the-mouth rabid individual should be tolerated any more.

I think it’s time her relationship ended with this site. She has already been banned on JW Survey and has not appeared there since.

JJ, thank you I am still welcome to “preach” here and try to help sincere persons realize in what for dangerous situation they are for the moment, in the hope they will return to our loving and merciful father Jehovah.

Ok, Amos, is it true it took you 59 years to see the WTS is a false and wicked organisation? 59 years! Very amazing.
Most people can see in a much shorter time something is false and wicked.
Do you have something against the apostle Paul? He was a great follower of Jesus. He said: “Become imitators of me, even as I am of Christ”. 1 Corinthians 11:1.
And Jesus himself said: “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one who IS DOING THE WILL OF MY FATHER” Matthew 7:21. So, just SAYING ‘I belong to Christ’ is not enough.

I’m glad that at last you finally admit that “the WTS is a false & wicked organisation”! It was much shorter than 59 years before I realized the evil intent of the WTS, but because of being “raised within a cult”, as many will testify, it’s most difficult to find the best plan of escape.

I believe the Apostle Paul was the best apostolic example for us to follow & am deeply moved by his inspired writings. Because you don’t personally know me, & probably don’t know any others on this site, you really do take a great risk of speaking badly to & about Christ’s brothers. Your smart remarks make it very evident that you aren’t interested in any of us here, but that you seem to take delight in diverting spiritual discussions into meaningless waffle.
By your actions, we can see who you really are, Skyrainbow. A plant directly from the WTS.
I can’t believe how shallow your faith & motives are to come here & engage those who you term apostates in an open dialogue, as you do.

You are of course quite right in saying….”So, just SAYING ‘I belong to Christ’ is not enough,”

You talk condescending crap, Skyrainbow, because your motive is in direct conflict with the purpose of this site; you talk to its bloggers like they’re 5-year-olds, and hypocritically, you will not hold a decent conversation because if you do, you will deem it (as you have been indoctrinated with by the WTBTS) as having a discussion with an apostate. JimmyG has also quoted and cited the WT itself to show you you are in direct violation of its own instructions too. Cedars, on JW Survey sussed this and got rid of you, noting you are an Internet troll.

Where has JJ said he will allow you to preach? As far as I’m concerned he has the patience of Job, not because he wants you here. This is just my position.

Your preaching has all the value of a broken record and an irritating gnat.

“Skyrainbow I have no intention of banning ANYONE from this site if they conduct themselves like you. I don’t agree with all your viewpoints, but that’s okay. I feel the brothers and sisters that come here have a right to agree or disagree with you and decide for themselves. You are welcome to “preach” here, and as far as I’m concerned, you can even count your time!”

I’m sure as someone who has been disfellowshipped he doesn’t want to do the same thing to someone else who merely has a different viewpoint. This includes you too as you have a different viewpoint from the majority of us.
All I see skyrainbow trying to do, albeit misdirected, is to ‘save’ us. We may not want it but it is his right to try as long as it is done without animosity. The longer he is here, who knows, we may save him!

Disappointed: “I’m sure as someone who has been disfellowshipped he doesn’t want to do the same thing to someone else who merely has a different viewpoint.”

I asked for an answer and I got it. This is acceptable, however,Disappointed I accuse you likewise of not reading my comments accurately. I gave two reason why, ironically, I raised the option of disfellowshipping Skyrainbow; I wonder if you can find them.

Disappointed: “I’m sure as someone who has been disfellowshipped he doesn’t want to do the same thing to someone else who merely has a different viewpoint.”

I asked for an answer and I got it. This is acceptable, however,Disappointed I accuse you likewise of not reading my comments accurately. I gave two reason why, ironically, I raised the option of disfellowshipping Skyrainbow; I wonder if you can find them.

Thanks for the clarification Disappointed- that’s exactly what I said.

Skyrainbow reminds me of a sibling that will pick, pick, pick, pick, at their younger brother until he gets so mad he lashes out in anger…and then she gets exactly what she wanted in the first place– A REACTION, and ATTENTION. When that same little immature one is ignored or dealt with in a more calm manner then gradually she gets tired of the game and does something else.

JJ, Disappointed, and Amos, I present my case here. All the comments below have been copied and pasted from the site URL at the bottom. I didn’t want to bore you with the rest, they are many. Oh, and you can read my comments and full context too if you like. There are two ‘Franks.’

Ruth and Amos, it concerns me you have such feelings for a two-faced person like who has been banned from the cited site. All you need is time to see that ‘Sister’ Skyrainbow has our best interests at heart.

Enjoy.

skyrainbow November 5, 2012 at 5:18 pm
Most comments are just fantasies and contemplations of desperate losers.

skyrainbow November 6, 2012 at 8:26 am
Frank, you mean only elders, pioneers, bethelites, circuit overseers and of course Frank are in the position to comment here?
Maybe I am very immature and very ignorant but I am honest and loyal! And I don’t believe the propaganda of rancorous and frustated apostates and their old fairy tales.

skyrainbow November 7, 2012 at 3:18 pm
JA, I see, you are not so happy I am still coming back. Because I am exposing the lies and “counterfeit words” of apostates?

skyrainbow November 12, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Reading all the comments here reminds me of the dog that bites the masters hand that has always fed him.

skyrainbow November 13, 2012 at 5:05 am
Ernest, I pray for sincere persons who are deceived by the lobby of apostates.

skyrainbow November 13, 2012 at 9:59 am
Yes DB, we are very happy, with a positive attitude, always smiling and with appreciation for the sunshine. You know why? You find the answer in Psalms 149:5: “Let the LOYAL ONES exult in glory; Let them cry out joyfully on their beds”. What a difference with the desperate, rancorous, frustrated disloyal apostates.

skyrainbow November 13, 2012 at 3:44 pm
Why did you leave Jehovah’s people? Not because of all the fallacies you are mentioning.
John answers: “They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us” 1 John 2:19.
So, a great part of the apostates were disfellowshipped because of their immoral behavior. First they became disloyal towards their partner and next towards Jehovah.

skyrainbow November 14, 2012 at 5:48 am
Frank, I can assure you, my children have been always very safe in the Christian congregation of J.W. In our circuit I know only one congregation with a paedophilia case. The elders informed the authorities, he was disfelloshipped and is now active in a group of apostates. You can be sure, in proportion, apostate groups have more paedophiles than J.W. So, Frank, some modesty
would be to your credit.

skyrainbow November 15, 2012 at 8:03 am
After reading the last comments I am more and more convinced, apostates are real losers. They lost their faith, the truth, loving brothers and sisters and Jehovah’s approval. Yes, they need encouragement, comfort and help but they must first realize in what for dangerous situation they are for the moment.
I do not hate apostates but I hate their new goal in life, bashing Jehovah’s Witnesses, their former brothers and sisters. I hate their ungratefulness. They forget how much they know thanks to the devote brothers of the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Even now they are using their sites and publications.
They do not realize they fell in “the trap of the birdcatcher” (Psalm 91:3) “who is misleading the entire inhabited earth”
Revelation 12:9.

skyrainbow November 15, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Allen, you are saying ‘it took some of us decades to see the light’
Decades? Wow, apostates are very intelligent!
But is it really the light you see? Jesus said: “Be alert, therefore. Perhaps the light that is in you is darkness” Luke 11:35.

skyrainbow November 16, 2012 at 8:35 am
I have the feeling that everyone wants me to leave this blog.
Why? Do you feel uneasy because I am exposing the arguments, distortions and lies of apostates?
By the way, Alan, is Frank’s statement that de ‘organisation will disfellowship me if one of its members find out that I am spending all this time… on this website’ not another lie?

skyrainbow November 16, 2012 at 10:49 am
Alan, the problem about your (stupid) challenge is that I am not here to see why others have left Jehovah’s people. The Bible is very clear in telling us why some leave Jehovah and ‘shrink back’. Hebrews 10:38,39.
I am convinced you find here also sincere persons who are deceived by the lobby of apostates and I am trying to help them realize in what for dangerous situation they are for the moment. The real reason I am here is to expose the lies and ‘counterfeit words’ of rancorous apostates. (2 Peter 2:3) in the hope sincere persons will return to our loving father Jehovah.

skyrainbow November 16, 2012 at 3:35 pm
So JimmyG, you think you have not left Jehovah ‘because you are still active in the congregation’ But you are telling, you are ‘well on the way to fading’. Don’t you think this means you are on the way to leave Jehovah? But do not forget, Jesus himself said: “But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved” Not the losers, as Frank and Alen who stopped serving Jehovah and trying to drag along others on their disastrous road, playing the same old disks, some 90-years old.
So Jimmy, think it over and go directly to Jehovah in prayer and ask Him to help you.

skyrainbow November 17, 2012 at 4:27 pm
Kat, you really believe I am associating with apostates? Exposing them is something else as associating.
Apparently the exposing is very effective. Frank is already losing his self-control and is sending me to a psychiatrist and is talking gibberish about praetorian gards in smoky clubs in the basements in Moscow.
And thanks for the encouragement to preach door to door. But I can assure you I am doing this almost every day. Sorry you have not the courage anymore to obey Jesus commandment “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all nations” Matthew 28:19

skyrainbow November 17, 2012 at 4:31 pm
Frank, calm down.
The following are five quick and easy ways to regain your calm.
1. Take a walk
2. Take a breath
3. Try progressive muscle relaxation.
4. Take a mental break
5. Refraim your situation (the most important)

Amos, you really believe I ‘finally admitted that the WTS is a false and wicked organisation’? You are an amazing man with a strange reasoning. Now I understand why it took you 59 years to see the light. Now I am expecting your reaction: ‘I am glad that at last you finally admit I see the light’.
Thank you for the warning but I can assure you I don’t take a great risk because I speak always good about Christ’s brothers, the real ones. Matthew 25:34-40.

You amaze me Skyrainbow. I did a copy & paste from your own reply to me….they are YOUR WORDS, not mine.

BTW, as Myself & others have asked you before & you continually fail to give a legible reply, “Why are you having dealings with ones here who according to YOUR belief are “apostates”?”

According to scripture, an apostate is one who rejects Jesus is the Son of God, that He came to earth & was crucified, buried & rose the 3rd day & that HE is now sitting at the Fathers right hand in heaven. Where do you sit with this?

Skyrainbow answered zero questions, but instead used an poor example to try and excuse the corrupt behavior of the WTBTS. Following Skyrainbow’s line of reasoning would have us believe that Christ Jesus was telling the Apostles that they would only be saved if they remained subject to the religious organizations of their day. Yes, brothers and sisters, Christ meant for you to just go along with any Religion that claimed to be representing God no matter what they do! In this way you would prove that you are enduring to the end. What about getting out so that you do not share in the plagues that will come upon all organized false religion?

Let’s just make it easy. Where in the scriptures did God authorize a human being to preach that the door to heaven closed in the 1920’s? Where was that? Where does God’s word ever say it closed at all? If a religion was correct in saying the heavenly calling closed, then who opened it so that the leaders could claim to have that hope decades later? A hope that would conveniently place them above the rest of their members? Since the Governing Body is obviously fallible, why do they insist on a level of devotion from others that is only due the Christ? Why are JW’s not considered in good standing with the congregation for questioning the ideas of fallible men? Men responsible for teaching that organ transplants were considered cannibalistic? Even claiming that teaching to be based on scriptural principles? Real people with families died because they listened to an idea of men that was claimed to be from God’s word. Had you or I harbored a private belief back then, we would not have qualified for any privilege in the congregation if our views became known. You could have even been DF’d for holding on to those views. Of course when those views later proved to be nothing more than an ” idea ” loved by those in power, were thos brothers and sister who were right re-instated? Were apologies offered? Notice the ideas of men:

ORGAN TRANSPLANTS:

“Is there anything in the Bible against giving one’s eyes (after death) to be transplanted to some living person?-L. C., United States. The question of placing one’s body or parts of one’s body at the disposal of men of science or doctors at one’s death for purposes of scientific experimentation or replacement in others is frowned upon by certain religious bodies. However, it does not seem that any Scriptural principle or law is involved. It therefore is something that each individual must decide for himself.” Watchtower 1961 Aug 1 p.480 Questions from Readers

“Sustaining one’s life by means of the body or part of the body of another human … would be cannibalism, a practice abhorrent to all civilized people. … It is not our place to decide whether such operations are advisable from a scientific or medical standpoint… Christians who have been enlightened by God’s Word do not need to make these decisions based simply on the basis of personal whim or emotion. They can consider the divine principles and use these in making personal decisions as they look to God for direction, trusting him and putting their confidence in the future that he has in store for those who love him” Watchtower 1967 Nov 15 pp.702-704

“There is no Biblical command pointedly forbidding the taking in of other human tissue … It is a matter for personal decision…” Watchtower 1980 Mar 15 p 31:

Notice the timing of teachings. Light was on/off/on. Please consider this next quote from The Watchtower 12/1/1981 page 27, paragraph 2:

” . At times explanations given by Jehovah’s visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case.”

Really? Then what was the above case concerning organ transplants? It was an exact case of switching to a previous point of view, was it not? Remember that it is better to have questions you can’t answer, than answers you are not allowed to question.

I do not expect any answers. Keep posting Skyrainbow. It helps others who want truth to see a clear distinction between those who love truth, and those under an operation of error. If you are visiting this site, ask yourself what I would possibly gain from lying to any of you? What would JJ gain? The only ones with something to gain are the members of a multi-million dollar religious publishing company, who admit under oath, that they are a hierarchy just like the Catholic Church. An Organization that sells properties for millions of dollars, that is supposedly backed by God, but somehow always needs more money….

Spike: Following Skyrainbow’s line of reasoning would have us believe that Christ Jesus was telling the Apostles that they would only be saved if they remained subject to the religious organizations of their day.

Well said, Spike!
What boils down to me is that the things Skyrainbow says may even be true (as they are general truths of life or Bible quotes) just their very object, the thing they refer to, is not what she thinks. I find this kind of reasoning very frequent with JWs. The illustration of the dairy farm can show this very well. Amos just reversed it and the whole meaning changed at once. So everything she says is of this nature, in my view, and because of this her comments do not make real sense only convey some very vague and generalized sentiment of godliness.
I don’t mean to offend her with my opinion, I just try to put my finger on the essence of her comments, to understand why I have the feeling from the start that what she says doesn’t seem to come from her heart or mind, but it sounds only as a lesson read out or learnt by heart.
Sorry for my English, I’m not a native, I hope I could express what I meant to.
Greetings and blessing to all here.
Eve

Amos, I’m glad to see you’re finally getting to see not only that Skyrainbow is not the brightest light in the lamp shop, but also that she comes here, not to pass her opinion, but to pass judgement (Matthew 7:1)

She is one of the glassy-eyed variety whom you would never put in charge of the armoury or the red button in the missile silo.

I have followed this post with a mixture of amusement and incredulity that our ‘friend’ Skyrainbow can be so deluded and ignorant. The only conclusion I can come too is, that since her reinstatement, she has made it her personal crusade to try expunge her ongoing guilt by being an ‘apostle to the apostates’ as she sees them.
Of course she was not appointed to this role by the FDS (aka GB) but rather by Jehovah, with whom she has direct relationship. She clearly does not recognize their claim of authority. If she did she would recognize that their instruction not to associate with so called apostates is a divine instruction and to disobey the GB is the same as disobeying Jehovah. So Skyrainbow, that makes YOU an apostate in their eyes and consequently by their reasoning an apostate in Jehovah’s.
Perhaps this argument is too logical for you as your appointment by God has no doubt emotionally empowered you to speak out as a prophet.
Well Skyrainbow, put simply, by being here you are just like us. To accuse others of leading a double life is the height of hypocrisy when you know full well you would be reprimanded if the elders knew you were here. But its a secret isn’t it Sky. And your tragic attempts to lead ‘apostates’ to repentance does nothing more than reinforce our resolve to be free of the mind numbing reasoning of the WTS.
You still feel guilty for being dis-fellowshipped because you received your forgiveness from a body of men, and this guilt haunts you try to help others, when really the Holy Spirit is trying to lead you to true repentance before our Master Jesus.
Perhaps you should take off the 3D glasses the WTS issued you with before they invited you watch their epic tale of lies, deception and arrogance, and see it for what it really is- LIES, DECEPTION and ARROGANCE.
You need to accept the free gift that Jehovah gives and recognize his son Jesus, repent of your former course and be truly forgiven.
So be humble Sky, repent and recognize that you are here for a reason.
Just not the reason you think!

Chris- skyrainbow has been reminded many times now that he/she is associating with so called ‘apostates’ by visiting sites like this. I even quoted from a WT article of last year that specifically reminded ones like him/her to obey his/her GB masters, stop immediately and seek forgiveness from his/her local elders. I don’t know why anyone bothers responding to his/her rantings.

I think it’s good to let Skyrainbow spout his rhetoric here as it really shows clearly what we have left behind. The double speak, the WT propaganda, the ill fitting illustrations, the guilt tripping and fear mongering, the out of context scriptures, the putting of ‘apostates’ in the same category as demons. What he fails to see is that he is worshipping a man made organisation rather than the God he claims to be worshipping. Obedience to this man made organisation is of the utmost importance in his mind. Anyone who doesn’t is liable to the ‘fiery Gehenna’. He doesn’t see that the majority of us still have a wonderful relationship with God and his Son, far better than when we were ‘in the truth’. We have learned ‘The Truth about The Truth’ and we are now free from the shackles that man has put on us.
Anything that Skyrainbow says only reinforces that. So no-one should feel upset by what he says. It’s actually very amusing.

Disappointed, I never called you an apostate. You are a victim of apostates. You didn’t take Paul’s warning serious: “Look out: perhaps there maybe someone who will carry you off as his prey trough… empty deception” Colossians 2:8.

That already happened Skyrainbow… by the WT organisation… and now I have escaped its clutches. I belong only to God and Christ and not to any man. I obey no man, not ever again. I answer only to my Heavenly Father and my Lord Jesus Christ.

The apostle Paul said at 1 Cor 1:12.13 “What I mean is this, that each one of you says;”I belong to Paul”,”But I to Apollos”,”But I to Cephas”,”But I to Christ”. The Christ exists divided. Paul was not impaled for you, was he? Or were you baptised in the name of Paul?” (Take a look at the 2nd baptism question).
Also Acts 5:29 “In answer Peter and the other apostles said: We must obey God as ruler rather than men”.
Also Matt 23:10 “Neither be called ‘leaders’,for your Leader is one, the Christ”.
So Skyrainbow… who is your leader? Who do you obey? Who died for you? The Governing Body? Or Christ Jesus?

Chris, as usual you are far beside the mark. Your posting is a real blunder!
I HAVE NEVER BEEN DISFELLOWSHIPPED! I don’t feel guilty. I am not making a personal crusade to try expunge an ongoing guilt. You know very well why I am being here. Because I feel pity with sheep like you, who left the flock and now wandering about on these sites of struggling despair.
How do you know the elders don’t know I am here?
And Chris, do you think you are in a good position to tell me, to be humble and repent? You yourself are known for a very proud and agressive personality, the real reason you lost the precious truth. (not the yellow truth)

Uniquely, Skrainbow tells the truth! I would like to clear up the ‘disfellowshipping’ rumour. It was I who encouraged JJ to ‘disfellowhip’ Skyrainbow from this site. She has been banned from JW Survey on the evidence presented as an “Internet Troll.”

My encouragement was more ironic than real, as I enjoy deflecting punches too. I requested it for two reasons (See above):

(1) Because Skyrainbow has nothing substantial to say and only comes here to feed her ego, and:

(2) Because I wanted her to feel what it is like to be shunned merely for dissenting (disagreeing) from the majority view.

And Skyrainbow, I think your insults, false charges, make it VERY plain that you have sins to repent of.

My favourite is: “You can be sure, in proportion, apostate groups have more paedophiles than J.W. So, Frank, some modesty
would be to your credit.” She was replying to me. Without a scrap of evidence to this cruel and obviously scurrilous claim, it shows up clearly why I think she needs a psychiatrist.

Not really a blunder,I realize you have not been Dfed.
Call it an exercise in seeing your response to a false accusation. Not pleasant is it?
Yet you come here time and again as an unwelcome visitor trying to bully the other guests with your unique form of pat phrases, calling others apostates when you know nothing about them.
Yet when you are questioned to provide structured scriptural reasoning to support your masters claim to be the FDS you sing like a hollow reed. All noise and no substance.

Go back to your masters and tell them that you need them to answer certain specific questions that have been put to you, and see their reaction….oh that’s right they know your here don’t they ‘Special Agent Skyrainbow’.

And stop pretending to know anyone here, or do you practice sanctioned divination as well?

When you read the postings of Frank, Chris, JimmyG and sometimes Amos, you can feel they hate me. I am not surprised, they are not Christians anymore and they are frustrated and rancorous.
But I can assure them I love them because I am a loyal Christian. Jesus, my only Master, said that love is the most important indentifying mark of a real follower of the Son of God.
I love them because they are pitiable losers. They lost their faith (as Frank), the truth, loving brothers and sisters, joy and Jehovah’s approval. They need encouragement, comfort and help but they refuse to accept it.
From the bottem of my heart I hope that they will come to their senses.

You are one creepy individual, Skyrainbow. You are not a walking paradox, you are a confused individual and possibly dangerous, maybe only to yourself.Firat you place Jehovah as you main object of love, then it’s Jesus. I don’t need your pity and I think I’d sooner kiss a Wookie.

Skyrainbow, they don’t hate you! How can they, they don’t even know you. What they don’t like is the posts you make. Once one has discovered the truth about the truth there is no going back. When you have discovered all the hypocrisy and lies, the twisting of scripture, the hiding of past doctrines that are no longer taught, how can you have faith in it anymore? We love you as you love us.. as a human being.. we want you to see the real truth just as we have. No one is asking you to reject either Jehovah or Jesus.
As for loving brothers and sisters.. many have been badly hurt by those claiming to be their brothers and sisters. It’s really no wonder why they have left.

Thank you , Disappointed, Frank, Jimmy G, Chris, Amos, for confronting modern day pharisisical reasonings. I have always been interested in how Christ dealt with those mental mind benders with egos on steroids, in that he always put them in their place. I applaud all your efforts, and I am even more grateful , that I am not enslaved by a pharisisical organization no more.

Stop judging. You cannot call someone an apostate because they do not agree with a human theory that is subject to change. Your Heavenly Father does not approve of slaves beating each other. The scriptural definition of Apostasy ( the only meaning that we should really care about) is not someone who disagrees with ideas of men.

Also, please do not confuse forced conformity with unity. Here is an enlightening court document that you may not have read. It is from the Walsh Trial. It nicely illustrates how human wisdom pales in comparison with Godly wisdom. Please consider this:

SCOTLAND 1954

Grant Suiter testified:
Q. Indeed can any person…have an understanding of the Scriptures apart from the publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses?
A. No.

Q. Only by the publications can he have a right understanding of the Scriptures?

A. That is right.

Q. Is that not arrogance?

A. No.

Mr. H.C.Covington, the head legal counsel of the Society at that time, gave the following testimony:
Q. Is it not vital to speak the truth on religious matters?

A. It certainly is.

Q. Is there in your view room in a religion for a change of interpretation of Holy Writ from time to time?

A. There is every reason for a change in interpretation as we view it, of the Bible. Our view becomes more clear as we see the prophesy fulfilled by time.

Q. You have promulgated — forgive the word — false prophesy?

A. We have — I do not think we have promulgated false prophesy, there have been statements that were erroneous, that is the way I put it, and mistaken.

Q. Is it a most vital consideration in the present situation of the world to know if the prophesy can be interpreted into terms of fact, when Christ’s Second Coming was?

A. That is true, and we have always striven to see that we have the truth before we utter it. We go on the very best information we have but we cannot wait until we get perfect, because if we wait until we get perfect we would never be able to speak.

Q. Let us follow that up just a little. It was promulgated as a matter which must be believed by all members of Jehovah’s Witnesses that the Lord’s Second Coming took place in 1874?

A. I am not familiar with that. You are speaking on a matter that I know nothing of.

Q. You heard Mr. Franz’s evidence?

A. I heard Mr. Franz testify, but I am not familiar with what he said on that, I mean the subject matter of what he was talking about, so I cannot answer any more than you can, having heard what he said.

Q. Leave me out of it?

A. That is the source of my information, what I have heard in court.

Q. You have studied the literature of your movement?

A. Yes, but not all of it. I have not studied the seven volumes of “Studies in the Scriptures,” and I have not studied this matter that you are mentioning now of 1874. I am not at all familiar with that.

Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ’s Second Coming was in 1874?

A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.

Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?

A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erroneous.

Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.

Q. You do not believe in the worldly armies, do you?

A. We believe in the Christian Army of God.

Q. Do you believe in the worldly armies?

A. We have nothing to say about that, we do not preach against them, we merely say that the worldly armies, like the nations of the world today, are a part of Satan’s Organization, and we do not take part in them, but we do not say the nations cannot have their armies, we do not preach against warfare, we are merely claiming our exemption from it, that is all.

Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?

A. I agree that.

Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

A. That is correct.

Q. If a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?

A.Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.

Q. Unity at all costs?

A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.

Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?

A. That is conceded to be true.

Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?

Spike, thank you for reproducing what is a classic extract from this important court case. You remind us that conformity should not be confused with unity (“If you think for yourself you are not in unity with us”). Ed Murrow, impeacher of Senator Joseph McCarthy, likewise reminded us that we should not confuse dissent with loyalty. Simply being critical of bad theology doesn’t mean we ‘throw the baby out with the bath water.’ This site exists as a support for those who have been damaged by bad religious policy, but I’m one who may forgive where there is GENUINE repentance on the part of religious perpetrators.

Brother Spike , thank you for that extract from that court case with (bro) Covington . He was their prized legal eagle at that time !

Bottom line official answer from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society , to the question , ” Do you , Mr. Covington , call putting people to death ‘Christianity’ ; . . . . sadly , his answer was “Yes” .

Oh , how reassuring it is for me now to know that I am thought of as dead to a man like that . Because , you see , if God’s enemies want us to be dead , brother , than we must be doing something right !!!

I have worn my bracelet to the recent meetings I have been to. It gives me courage, I don’t think it has magical powers lol, but in my recent conversations with some elders and a circuit overseer I feel so much more confident to defend myself and my beliefs. It is time friends for those of us still going to the meetings for us to help those close to us become awakened witnesses too to save them and let them become aware of the lies we have been taught to be “The Truth”. For those of you who are enjoying true christian freedom now I admire your courage and the help and stregth you give us all, one day I too wish to expirience the freedom you do but for now I will help those close to me and I will continue with my struggle knowing TTATT and letting my light shine.

C.M- If you are talking to elders and a CO, I’d be very careful as to what you say! Before long the word ‘apostasy’ will be used, then judicial action will follow soon after. I hope not, unless that is what you are trying to achieve.
I still go to meetings for my family’s sake, but I say nothing, nothing at all.
Regards, Jimmy

JimmyG I have given you reply thought and I have come to realise, maybe subcounsciously I am trying to expose myself just not go all out like Brother Eric did. The reason I am meeting with these elders and c/o is for exposing a terrible man who uses his authority as an elder to slander people among other much more serious things I would like to not mention. I am recording these meetings for my own protection but now that I know TTATT they have no power over me and never will again gain the upper hand on me I cannot lie I only speak the truth.

I thought you were lost to anguish, Skyrainbow – welcome back. You obviously believe this is all about you, so I would like to dedicate my poem to you (and all others who are artless and disaffected about TTATT):

With the apostate nil but daisy fodder
And divine will done as far as eye can see
The dreamer wakes to grand illusions
To scan the shadows of man’s long-hoped scheme

In the land of the free
History whispers in pricked ear a word to the wise
“Why is it you believe that such goodness
Will not set the gallows upon the hills of paradise?”
FV

Disappointed, when I say to someone I love him and his reaction is ‘I would like to use a four-letter-word too. It’s usually accompanied by the word “off”, you really believe he doesn’t hate me?
He is a perfect example of what happens with someone who leaves Jehovah’s people. I am sorry for him because he has allowed, for some or other reason, to lure him away from Jehovah’s light so that his faith has been shipwrecked on what we might liken to treacherous rocks, as immorality and apostasy.
As in the first century, some today ‘have experienced shipwreck concerning their faith’ 1 Timothy 1:19.
The new world might be likened to the home port for which we are heading. With it so close now, what a tragedy it would be for one to lose Jehovah’s favor!
So Disappointed, a joyful welcome awaits those returning to Jehovah. And when you return to the save flock you will not anymore be disappointed.

Skyrainbow, you sit high above me with a black cloth over your head to deal me the death blow, and yet I haven’t been tried. You reflect your teachers well. What ‘immorality’ am I guilty of? Who are you to say I have committed Biblical ‘apostasy’?

Like JimmyG, I too am, according to your judgement, leading a ‘double-life’ (You’ve been a good example to me) and yet I have not a jot of bad conscience about it – just like you!

To C.M- I wish you well, but I fear the hangmen await. Please make sure that when you go to meetings, record every conversation you have, particularly with elders and ministerial servants etc.

I go to meetings with a recording device hidden behind my tie. I have several interesting conversations on a flash drive. If it ever gets to a judicial hearing, I will record that too. It will all go on the internet.

Having been in ‘stealth mode’ for 14 months now, people have noticed changes in my behaviour and they want to know why. So, as is typical of JWS, no one has come to me, but gossip has spread throughout the cong. They know nothing, it’s all hearsay. because I have said nothing incriminating. With my approach, there is no way I’m going to wear a bracelet. Go well, C.M

Skyrainbow- there is no panic for me. I feel in total control. You just keep on going with your diatribe (you might have to look that one up), it has no effect on me. Regards, Jimmy

Hi JimmyG. There shall never be any shame in your gameplan. The shame rest upon a religious system that denies judicial representation; denies sufficient due process; denies defensive cross-examination; denies the right-to-silence; breaks the confidence of shepherding calls to use as evidence against the accused; can allow hearsay as evidence against the accused; allows testimony that is contorted by ‘witnesses’ and not cleaned up through appropriate cross-examination, and on and on.

We’re now at the stage when the digital age has provided the advantage we need to save even our own reputations with our friends and loved one. It is brave; it is daring – do it!

Just to put a lid on the lovliness of one particular victim of religious psychosis, here is the explanation why Skyrainbow was removed from JW. Survey:

skyrainbow November 2, 2012 at 2:35 pm
Cedars, is it possible you are a part of the ‘evil slave’ who is beating his former fellow slaves? Anyway, Satan will be very happy with your ‘good and hard work” !

Comment: Flailing for any old hand-grab to prove her authenticity and find the strongest insult he could deliver to the proprietor of this site, Skyrainbow seems to have forgotten or never knew, either by the ‘old light’ or the ‘new light’ who the ‘evil slave class’ actually are!

skyrainbow November 18, 2012 at 8:42 am
JimmyG, I see apostates are very touchy.
I also can make a list of names and descriptions I got here on this site. But for me this is not a problem. A true Witness of Jehovah is very forgiving.
Just a question, Jimmy. As you are sitting in the Kingdom Hall or talking with brothers and sisters don’t you feel a little bit a hypocrite? Frank calls your attitude ‘truly love’. Romans 12:9 says “Let you love be without hypocrisy”

Comment: JimmyG, well known at this site as a very upright, conscientious, and mentally-balance fellow has been called a hypocrite by a true congregation infiltrator that Jude reminds us to watch out for. In an attempt to raise her own righteous stature, Skyrainbow reminds us she can give our names to the elders any time, but she won’t because her halo suffers no instability. Later, I told her I would be happy for her to hand over a list of pseudonyms to the elders, as long as she was prepared to tell us what happened. We’re still waiting.

Then Cedars tires of the games:

Cedars November 18, 2012 at 10:17 am
skyrainbow, your misguided loyalty to the Governing Body and ignorance of Watchtower fallacy were charming to begin with, but I object to you resorting to patronizing comments and name-calling against other visitors. Not all who dare to disagree with the 8 men in Brooklyn consider themselves an “apostate”. Some take serious exception to it. Please quit the immature name-calling or I won’t hesitate to block you from this site for trolling.

Skyrainbow, we all get that you consider yourself a martyr, and you probably have a Messiah-complex, and especially now that you see yourself in the role of John the Baptist as well, all we ask is that you take your ‘voice crying out in the wilderness’ and walk backwards until you’re out of earshot.

If Skyrainbow can prove from scripture that men can force other men, their brothers, to believe something even if it is wrong, with the threat of eternal destruction as punishment, and YHWH and Christ approve it, then I will leave this site forever.

A little anxiety at the thought of persecution is normal. That is not panic. I felt a deep calm during my meetings with the Judges. The only ones in panic mode are the WTBTS leaders and Legal Team.

Spike, do you have any hard copy of your judicial case? Did you record it? If you did, please let us know, and perhaps arrangements can be made to educate others about the various human, imperfect, and downright dishonest ways these things are handled.

Most, if not all, JWs (innocent or otherwise) are ill-prepared for a religious ‘legal’ system more akin to the Catholic Inquisition or the Senator Joseph McCarty trials of America’s 1950s, and that bears no resemblance to the Bible – because there is no evidence that this arrangement ever existed, certainly in a Christian context.

Actually, I wrote an article about the relationship between judicial committees and personal grudges.

JimmyG, who is in his congregation a “rock hidden below water” (Jude 12) for a while, is now going to the meetings with a recording device hidden behind his tie. Unbelievable.
But there is still hope because he prefers to wear a tie instead of the yellow bracelet.

Frank has a problem. He likes discussions and debates. But he receives almost no reaction on his posts. So, he is creating a new platform for himself by transferring my old posts on JWSurvey. So he can go on with his hatred and insults.
Let me say, I am proud I was banned on that site by the man, who finds ‘disfellowshipping’ reprehensible!! With Frank as instigator. He tried the same here, but till now, without succes. That must be the reason he is so nervous and agressive.
It was obvious, by exposing their lies and slander my posts became dangerous.
On JWStruggle you have also sincere persons who are deceived, disappointed and struggling with doubts but JWSurvey is a real apostate site. Some have even returned to the God-dishonoring doctrines of “Babylon the Great” Others became atheists, agnostics (Frank) and evolutionists. They resort to distortions, halftruths and outright falsehoods.
Apostel Peter warned about such people who would use “counterfeit words”, spread “decepive teachings” and “twist the Scriptures” to their own ends. 2 Peter 2:3,13; 3:16.

JimmyG i wish you well too my brother i have been doing the same for 18 months just fading away and acting differently and yesterday my elders called me into the “room” to discuss with me what is going on and i recorded them and my cong. Overseer straight up told me the convo. He had with this other elder in another cong that i have mentioned i am trying to expose is between them and he did not want to reveal what was said or asked about me…cowardly…i thought there was supposed to be honesty n if the ask me questions and want me to open up about my business why not be honest with me? This is my second of 3 recordings i will do this week the third i may post online for it will b the best…an elder exposed to a circuit overseer…what a great title lol.

“When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.” — Robert M. Pirsig

Would anyone on this site like to support the idea that Skyrainbow’s own words do not discredit her? Come on, anyone, don’t be shy!

What about Skyrainbow’s zealous desire to put herself in the right?

Anyone?

This is why we must conclude that you have slipped in an ungainly way into irrationality, Sky, why? What ‘lies and deceptions’ have you exposed? You have to have arguments to ‘expose’ untruth!

Skyrainbow: “Others became atheists, agnostics (Frank) and evolutionists. They resort to distortions, halftruths and outright falsehoods.”

Please list my:

Distortions:

Halftruths:

Falsehoods:

I transferred your own words from JW Survey to show that YOU were creating distortions, halftruths, and falsehoods. You, my girl, are the deceptive ‘rock below the waters’!

You have discredited yourself by your own words and don’t worry we’re all wetting ourselves – but it’s not from crying.

Your pathetic attempts to appeal irrationally to guilt among the intelligent is just another evidence of your mania and zealotry, but thanks for giving us a unique insight into the truth about the truth (TTATT)

Ever yours,

Frank V

PS. Oh, and feel free to quote me, Skyrainbow, it can only help my cause. No?

CM, this is exactly what I mean by distortions, lies, and deception. It is all too common for gossip to come back to the alleged cause, whereas Matthew 18 tells us that these rumours should go back to the roots and that person/persons making these claims should be made to approach the accused person – at which time matters could be sorted out!

This almost never happens and elders become involved on the basis that the reported gossip is wholly true! This is why gossip spreads like wildfire among the congregations.

You will find too that these ‘witnesses’ may not even be called to give testimony, if it becomes a judicial case. The word of the elders can sometimes be deemed sufficient as evidence. This is why recording becomes necessary. If you are disfellowhipped, who will believe you? You reputation will be shot and your name dragged through the mud. The Matthew Barrie case will give hard copy to my claims.

I assume that I am free to keep posting since Skyrainbow has never once answered any of my questions, nor can he/she.

Let’s see..Jude is pretty easy, just look at the context.

Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion. These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

(Jude 1:3-16 ESV)

Jude deals with False Teachers. Anyone who teaches what is false and serves themselves by doing so. Shepherds who feed themselves.
Men like Korah who defied Moses.

Jesus is the greater Moses. No human is in the seat of Moses today. So these men who feed themselves, and teach falsehood while hiding in the ” love feasts ” or the celebration commemorating Christ’s death, are those who deny their Master.

How? By mistreating the Saints. Who were the saints? All who had a heavenly hope, every Christian at the time of Jude’s writing, until the time that Judge Rutherford declared the heavenly door closed. Oh, but wait, he was wrong, no human has that authority. So that teaching was false, designed to serve the interests of the Shepherds who feed themselves.

So, who today place themselves in the seat of Moses, and still perpetuate the false teachings? Who feed themselves while demanding that others accept their authority without question? Who claims under oath to be a hierarchy, just like the Catholic Church? Who accuses those who feel they have a heavenly hope, (the common hope as Jude states ) as being mentally and emotionally unbalanced, and in need of God’s forgiveness. Who believes that false prophecies must be accepted by it’s lowly rank and file members? Who is hiding at the ” love feast “, the celebration of our Lord’s death, and perverting the grace of our God by teaching that Christ is just the mediator for some?

What we see, Spike, particularly in Jude and other cherry-picked scriptures, is a Jerry-built eisegetical system to weed out ‘weak links’ from the Organisation. Contextually, you are right, what was the function of these first-century parallels, and are there genuine parallels today? So much is taken for granted as to cause the innocent serious harm.

The system is effective, but only in the sense of discharging a machine gun in a crowded room; the innocent pay too.

Hi C.M- A couple of months ago, I had a conversation with an elder and I told him that I will never go into a ‘room’ at the KH with 2 or more elders and any serious communication will only be with that specific elder. That way, there is only one witness, so I am protected against the ‘2 witness rule’. Of course this doesn’t mean that they will not try something underhand at some stage. I think I am also protected somewhat by the fact that I used to be an elder, so I know how things work. The elder I speak with, says that the Co-ordinator (whom I’ve known for 25 years) is scared of me. All the other elders, numbering 4, are followers and head nodders. So if the Co-ordinator is scared of me and the others just follow him, I think they just don’t know what to do next.

It’s funny, the other night at the meeting the bible highlights included Matt 18- someone commented on the passage Frank refers to above. The commenter said a problem between 2 people should be handled by those 2 people and no one else usually needs to get involved. It’s funny because as Frank says, in reality, it almost never happens. Hence the widespread gossip, only known to me because of these communications with this one elder- not one person who is responsible for passing on their juicy slander has approached me in the spirit of Matt 18.

Skyrainbow- At least a neck tie comes in handy for something. Every time I see the nonsense you write, it reminds me of why I eventually want to get away from the WT org. As JJ said during his judicial hearing, there is something systemically wrong with the WT org, which manages to produce people like you. Fortunately, many JWS aren’t like you.

Jimmy by your posting here and standing up for your Christian conscience despite the fact that you were formerly an elder like so many others of us is huge IMO. There are easily hundreds of former elders and MS right now in various JW congregations throughout the globe that know TTATT.

How long until this tide crests and the GB leaders are forced to soften their harsh policies? Hopefully we will see it in our lifetimes, and many of us may even be able to embrace our friends and loved ones that were stolen away from us due to the judgmentalism that is rampant among the friends at the Kingdom Halls today.

I’m hoping everyone here now knows that Skyrainbow is delusional and probably suffering other religiously-derived emotional problems. Yes, you are right; the pharisees built a wall between themselves and the amaharets (lower casts)and between themselves and the Gentiles. Either way they were wall buiders. Skyrainbow has been great in that she has provided us with much entertainment, but she has delivered us important information of what humans are like when they have replaced genuine spirituality with undirected hatred of those she deems below her caste.

As you so remind us, JimmyG, the Watchtower have changed a genuine shepherding system (closing stable doors before the horse has bolted) with a cheaper ‘replica’ (closing stable doors after the horse had bolted).

The WTBTS say their praetorian guard (elders) are not policemen – who are they trying to kid? Themselves mostly.

Excellent parallel , Bro Spike . They are in a fog as well , until they awaken to their atrocities . Perhaps Skyrainbow will appreciate the need for all of us to pray for such shephards . I had to repent after being one . Those heavy millstones tied to necks will take anyone under , so we must escape the judgment of those stublers . – Luke 17: 1-4

That is exactly the issue we have with this elder he has been the coordinator forever i was 4 when i was in that cong and of all the elders i have met, and I have met some bad ones he is the most evil of them all he has hurt so many and still talking about me 15 years it has been since we left that cong and he is still slandering my family’s name and even called my elders who are nothing like that and when i saw how they were talking and speaking i noticed how my friendship with them was a lie if the could not be honest with me, and i did do this weeks reading and what you said Frank omg applied so much it is as if you knew what i was going through lol but i know that i have lit a fire both these body of elders will think twice before they approach me again with something stupid.

The yellow shirt of Lance Armstrong is now a symbol of cheating and lies.
The yellow bracelet is becoming a symbol of frustration, bitterness, wounded pride, self-pitty and for some even rancour and hate.

Jesus said who ever shall do the will of my Father in heaven, are my brother, sister and mother.
He did not come to seek his own will but the will of his Father. He said we must love our enemies
and the ones persecuting us. To love our neighbours as we would love ourselves.

Can the spirit of God be with wrath and anger? Disputes and arguments?
This front page has to be turned into a place of love and peace. Even if one needs to cry out for help” It can be handled in a peaceful manner. Its not what is said but how it is said.
Ruth

Skyrainbow, your words are a treasure. What would we do without you. I need 3 posts because your blarney is of such high quality. I feel another four-letter-word coming on (to replace the word ‘blarney’).

Ruth, your words “we do not have to fight and argue” are very wise. You are for love and peace. Sincere persons like you motivate me to stay here in the hope I can help them to return to our loving father Jehovah. You don’t belong here, on these sites of bitterness and hatred. I will think about your words.

But on the other hand, Jehovah tells me: “But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS READY TO MAKE DEFENSE before everyone that demands of you reason for the hope in you, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect” 1 Peter 3:15. I know, in ‘mild temper and deep respect’ I can improve. I do my best.

What you have to remember, Skyrainbow, that there was no hatred here before you came. All that was happening is healthy discussion. Ruth is a sentimentalist; in a free society, that’s her right. Genuine truth cannot be established without healthy debate.

Ruth, if a mutual love session is what you want, I’m sure the Samaritans would value you as a volunteer.

Quoting 1 Peter 3:15 is yet another evidence of your hypocrisy, skyrainbow as you haven’t yet made a defence for anything. Insulting the innocent does not count as righteousness.

skyrainbow says: “You don’t belong here, on these sites of bitterness and hatred.”

Skyrainbow, I am concerned about the above statement labeling this site as one of “bitterness and hatred”. This, unfortunately, is an example of “….ridicule, name-calling, smears, slurs, personal digs—all such tactics….marshaled to assail your mind….Sound evidence, reasoning, logic? The propagandist’s deadliest foes! He therefore attempts to rout reason and stimulate passion….” ~ Watchtower 1978, pg.3-4, par.4 (Article: Do Others Do Your Thinking? ~ Subheading: Tricks of Propagandists)

“Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts. Name-calling slaps a negative, easy-to-remember label onto a person, a group, or an idea. The name-caller hopes that the label will stick. If people reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative label instead of weighing the evidence for themselves, the name-caller’s strategy has worked.” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.1

“EDUCATION teaches you how to think. Propagandists tell you what to think. True educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists hammer hard on their view and discourage discussion…. They sift the facts, tell the favorable ones and conceal the others. They distort and twist facts, specialize in lies and half-truths. Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target. Many fall easy prey because it takes no effort to feel, whereas thinking is hard labor. And the propagandist sees to it that his message is made to seem wise, the right and moral one, and gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure—so they say. Propagandists have little respect for people’s thinking abilities….” ~ Watchtower 1978, pg.3, par.1,2

“….a very unfair and untrue type of propaganda…. assumes a superior air of dismissal of an opponent’s viewpoint, treating it as rather pathetic and really not worth attention….in order to evade questions that they cannot answer….So they resort to making assertions, and they scoff at all who dare to dispute them.” ~ Watchtower 1978, pg.4, par.2

“But do most people carefully analyze the real issues involved….? Or do they just accept what they are told?” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.10

So, Skyrainbow, rather than dismiss the viewpoints of the individuals on this blog by labeling them as viewpoints of “bitterness and hatred”, why not carefully examine and apply the above mentioned references advocating the importance of open discussion and thorough consideration of all sides of an issue? As the above quotations from Watchtower and Awake! articles highlight, this requires clear thinking and logical reasoning skills based on factual information; avoiding the varied propaganda techniques designed to manipulate thinking by appealing to emotions (fear, hate, pride, etc).

Perhaps, in this regard, it could prove helpful to prayerfully meditate on the wise counsel found in the Bible book of Proverbs: “A simple man believes every word he hears; a clever man understands the need for proof.” (Prov. 4:15 The New English Bible)

Additionally, do you really believe that your comment labeling this site as one of “bitterness and hatred” qualifies as a defense based on reason and expressed with “mildness” and “deep respect”? Do you really understand and empathize with what these people have been and are going through? After giving some consideration to the aforementioned questions, do you feel that perhaps a very sincere and deep apology would be appropriate?

Ruth:
Frank we all have different rolls. What you say is true about the organisation. But its not what one says its how one says it.
“Keep that in mind”
l forgot to mention this Frank. Have you forgotten men are different to women? You debate we love.
ruth

Brilliant, Condor. This clearly shows where Skyrainbow gets her lead. Typical double-standards of hypocrisy from the WTBTS.

This stuff can only make zombies who don’t know they’re even doing it!

Sky.
Please believe me when l say Jesus took me from a man made religion, any religion in fact was not set up by the head of the true followers of Christianity. “The way is simple” Its just away. Away of life that by the Holy Spirit his true sheep are feed.

‘Do you honestly think l would ever leave Jehovah God if l did not know what i was doing? Sky, my love and deep appreciation is deeper now than the deepest sea for him and his precious son.

Sis Disappointed is telling you the truth. Please read and check what she is saying.
The organisation is telling dreadful lies and covering up so many false prophecies. According to Deuteronomy 18:20 Any prophet which presumes to speak a word in my name YHWY and it does not come true l never sent him or her.

Sky please do not be afraid to do research. After all, what have you got to loose? My heart aches for you. It really does. I’m not young, an older woman now. But not a silly woman let me tell you. l see through most people don’t you worry.
l can be fooled some of the time. But not most of the time. It has taken me years as Jehovah was telling me he was not in any religion but in our hearts.
Remember the woman at the well with jesus.? What did she ask him. “Where the jews would worship. What was his answer. Neither here or there. But in spirit and truth. And Sky the Father is looking for these kind of people.
Darling if you would open your heart and ask Jehovah is Ruth right saying this, he will show you real truth. Not religion truth. only reading bible truth.

When you take a good look at the 1st century Christians what do you see. They never put money into property! And the message went throughout the known world. With baptism. 5000 were saved in one day. No 80 questions.
All lm asking you to do is please don’t worry yourself with people who are exstreamly hurt here. ‘And Sky they are! But please see why we would turn our backs not on Father and son. But on religion.
When Jesus said he was the way the truth (not the w/tower) He is the truth, the life, NO one comes to God unless its through him.
Ruth

Ruth, thank you for your scriptural text. This is exactly why anyone would be blessed to have you as a Samaritan to talk to. You would make a grown man cry with your comforting words, but I agree with Cedars at JWSurvey. He and I are kindred spirits in that we both want to get stalled minds working again. Sentiment will not accomplish this, healthy debate might.

Oh, and the WTBTS also now puts publishers’ money into hedge funds, something they would have condemned a mere 20 years ago. I can supply evidence if you like. And not to be forgotten is that every court case, including defending child abuse cases, come out of the world-wide preaching fund that publisher give – most of whom seem not even to know about this growing problem.

Frank we all have different rolls. What you say is true about the organisation. But its not what one says its how one says it.
“Keep that in mind”
l forgot to mention this Frank. Have you forgotten men are different to women? You debate we love.
ruth

We see now a massive attack on a lonely voice who is crying in this wilderness of bitterness, wounded pride and self-pitty.
Jehovah gives the assurance: “Any weapon whatever that will be formed against you will have no succes, and any tongue at all that will rise up against in the judgment you will condemn” Isajah 54:17.
That is true. Last year 7.782.346 loyal ones served their Creator because they love him with all their heart. We rejoyce in the fact that 268.777 new ones, symbolized their dedication to Jehovah – and not to men as some falsely are claiming. This means that 5168 were baptized on average each weekend!
What pitiful for the few ones who have not endured and “have shrink back to destruction” (Hebrews 10:39)and seeking some surrogates on these sites of despair.

skyrainbow says: “We see now a massive attack on a lonely voice who is crying in this wilderness of bitterness, wounded pride and self-pitty….What pitiful for the few ones who have not endured and “have shrink back to destruction” (Hebrews 10:39)and seeking some surrogates on these sites of despair.”

Skyrainbow, I must continue to express my concern about such statements which are clearly described in the Watchtower as being “….a very unfair and untrue type of propaganda…. assumes a superior air of dismissal of an opponent’s viewpoint, treating it as rather pathetic and really not worth attention….in order to evade questions that they cannot answer….So they resort to making assertions, and they scoff at all who dare to dispute them.” ~ Watchtower 1978, pg.4, par.2

This type of labeling also reflects the mindset described in an Awake! magazine article: “Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts. Name-calling slaps a negative, easy-to-remember label onto a person, a group, or an idea. The name-caller hopes that the label will stick. If people reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative label instead of weighing the evidence for themselves, the name-caller’s strategy has worked.” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.1

Sky, perhaps you just don’t realize that this is what you are doing. Please take a few moments and carefully review your posts and ask yourself: “Am I truly responding with mildness and respect? What “clear, logical reasoning” have I used to discuss my differences of opinion? What “factual” information have I presented to refute the statements and information presented by others with which I disagree?” ~ 1 Peter 3:15

Sky, after contemplating the above questions, please give careful consideration to the following comments found in a Watchtower article from 1978: “….True educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists hammer hard issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists hammer hard on their view and discourage discussion….Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target. Many fall easy prey because it takes no effort to feel, whereas thinking is hard labor. And the propagandist sees to it that his message is made to seem wise, the right and moral one, and gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure—so they say. Propagandists have little respect for people’s thinking abilities….” ~ Watchtower 1978, pg.3, par.1,2

Sky, these articles are direct quotes from the Watchtower and Awake! magazines. Please give them very careful consideration. All of us need to carefully examine ourselves and ask: “Do I want to be a true “educator” or a “propagandist”? The sad reality is that none of us is immune to propaganda, and if we are not truly honest with ourselves, we can easily fall into the clever trap of propaganda, even naively becoming a promoter of such.

With the above in mind, Sky, let’s take a minute and briefly consider the following part of your comment: “Last year 7.782.346 loyal ones served their Creator because they love him with all their heart. We rejoyce in the fact that 268.777 new ones, symbolized their dedication to Jehovah – and not to men as some falsely are claiming. This means that 5168 were baptized on average each weekend!”

Well Sky, yes, those are some impressive numbers. However, that is what they are, numbers. Numbers or statistics, do not in and of themselves offer absolute proof as to whether something is right or wrong; approved or disapproved. In this regard, please consider the following scritpure: “Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.” ~ Matthew 7:22,23

Also, please prayerfully reflect on the following words of Jesus found in the Bible book of Luke: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them….” ~ Luke 21:8

So, once again, we can see the value and wisdom of the Bible counsel found in Proverbs: “A simple man believes every word he hears; a clever man understands the need for proof.” (Prov. 4:15 The New English Bible)

“But do most people carefully analyze the real issues involved….? Or do they just accept what they are told?” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.10

I apologize for several mistakes in my previous posting. Corrections: The 1978 Watchtower article should have read as follows: “….True educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists hammer hard on their view and discourage discussion….Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target. Many fall easy prey because it takes no effort to feel, whereas thinking is hard labor. And the propagandist sees to it that his message is made to seem wise, the right and moral one, and gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure—so they say. Propagandists have little respect for people’s thinking abilities….” ~ Watchtower 1978, pg.3, par.1,2

Also, “please consider the following scritpure” should read “please consider the following scripture”

And last, the quotation from Proverbs, in parentheses lists Prov. 4:15; should be Prov. 14:15.

I apologize if I missed any other mistakes; will try to be more careful in proofreading in the future.

Yes, Ruth, the intelligent love to debate. As we are no longer hunter-gathers in the physical sense, this is how we gather our facts and information. Skyrainbow show all the signs of zombification. As such is unresponsive to external stimuli. Emotions are lost on her except for the script (insults and name-calling taught to her by literature) she must follow according to her programming.

Sky , Ruth is talking good sense to you . Here is a fuller context to the scripture Ruth cited to you , in Deuteronomy .

(Deu 18:16) God will send you this prophet because that is what you asked him to do. When you were gathered together at Mount Horeb, you became frightened and said, ‘Don’t let us hear the voice of the LORD our God again! Don’t let us see that great fire or we will die!’

(Deu 18:17) “The LORD said to me, ‘What they ask for is good.

(Deu 18:18) I will send them a prophet like you. This prophet will be one of their own people. I will tell him what he must say, and he will tell the people everything I command.

(Deu 18:19) This prophet will speak for me, and I will punish anyone who refuses to listen to my commands.’

(Deu 18:20) “But a prophet might say something that I did not tell him to say. And he might tell people that he is speaking for me. If this happens, that prophet must be killed. Also a prophet might come that speaks for other gods. That prophet must also be killed.

(Deu 18:21) You might be thinking, ‘How can we know if something a prophet says is not from the LORD?’

(Deu 18:22) If a prophet says he is speaking for the LORD, but what he says does not happen, you will know that the LORD did not say it. You will know that this prophet was speaking his own ideas. You don’t need to be afraid of him.

What should our attitude be toward false prophets , who claim to be God’s Prophet Organization ?

What is God’s attitude toward false prophets ? And . . . toward a collective organization who falsely prophesy , and who do this supposing that it is Divine Inspiration , . . . but , it proves false ?

Shouldn’t our attitude be the same as our Maker Jehovah ?

Come along with us SkyRainbow ! Brake those bonds that leave you running in circles . – Spoken to you as a brother who understands .

Ruth, take a look at the quote above. This is a result of a healthy brain thinking. I am a sceptic agnostic. This means that I don’t fall into any clever religious meme (constantly-developing idea). In other words, as Paul said: test to see that you have the truth. Testing can come about only by examining the available evidence. Your way, apparently, is merely to accept, praise, and obey.

When I claim something, I believe it’s important to back up this claim with evidence (in the above’s claim’s case – proof).

Postscript to the above comment: Comment 125 is presently under “awaiting moderation.” It contains two web page URLs that contain information about the WTBTS’s involvement in hedge funds.

The logic: The WTBTS’s name appears on the hedge fund list because it is my understanding that such is legally required by law. In America, at least, my understanding is that not-for-profit organisations are not required to declare their financial status, or parts thereof. This would account for why the WTBTS is obliged to appear on the hedge fund list, but one would be hard-put to find any reference to this activity in the Watchtower or Awake!

Thank you Daniel B, for your collection of all those scriptures about true and false prophets. I found it all beneficial and a great reminder on what is Jehovah thoughts on who are his true “prophets” It totally fits in regarding TTATT.

Ruth, it is Gods will that instead being a loose association of spiritual-minded individuals, true worshippers merge in a tight community of faith. The Bible exhorts worshippers to speak in agreement, to avoid divisions, and to be “fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thougt” (1 Corinthians 1:10)
Those words would make little sence if God wanted people to worship him only as individuals apart from one another.

Q. Is there in your view room in a religion for a change of interpretation of Holy Writ from time to time?

A. There is every reason for a change in interpretation as we view it, of the Bible. Our view becomes more clear as we see the prophesy fulfilled by time.

Q. You have promulgated — forgive the word — false prophesy?

A. We have — I do not think we have promulgated false prophesy, there have been statements that were erroneous, that is the way I put it, and mistaken.

Q. Is it a most vital consideration in the present situation of the world to know if the prophesy can be interpreted into terms of fact, when Christ’s Second Coming was?

A. That is true, and we have always striven to see that we have the truth before we utter it. We go on the very best information we have but we cannot wait until we get perfect, because if we wait until we get perfect we would never be able to speak.

Q. Let us follow that up just a little. It was promulgated as a matter which must be believed by all members of Jehovah’s Witnesses that the Lord’s Second Coming took place in 1874?

A. I am not familiar with that. You are speaking on a matter that I know nothing of.

Q. You heard Mr. Franz’s evidence?

A. I heard Mr. Franz testify, but I am not familiar with what he said on that, I mean the subject matter of what he was talking about, so I cannot answer any more than you can, having heard what he said.

Q. Leave me out of it?

A. That is the source of my information, what I have heard in court.

Q. You have studied the literature of your movement?

A. Yes, but not all of it. I have not studied the seven volumes of “Studies in the Scriptures,” and I have not studied this matter that you are mentioning now of 1874. I am not at all familiar with that.

Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ’s Second Coming was in 1874?

A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.

Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?

A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erronious.

Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.

Q. You do not believe in the worldly armies, do you?

A. We believe in the Christian Army of God.

—————————————————-

Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?

A. I agree that.

Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

A. That is correct.

Q. If a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?

A.Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body*, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.

Q. Unity at all costs?

A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.

Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?

A. That is conceded to be true.

Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?

A. That is correct.

Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?

A. I think – – –

Q. Would you say yes or no?

A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.

Q. Do you call that religion?

A. It certainly is.

Q. Do you call it Christianity?

A. I certainly do.

Eye opening and revealing testimony from brother Covington. Unity based upon an “enforced” acceptance of “false” prophecy; anyone conscientiously dissenting being worthy of death. Would you call that Christianity? Certainly food for thought. ~ Proverbs 14:15

“But do most people carefully analyze the real issues involved….? Or do they just accept what they are told?” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.10

It is clear, evidence from the Bible points to an organised form of worship as the kind that is acceptable to Jehovah.
Jehovah’s organisation is like a rainbow of beauty, like an oasis in the dessert, and like an anchor in a stormy sea.
Ruth, leave the dessert and flee to the oasis!!

Frank, your friend Cedars is not coming to your rescue, as you hoped. Mayby he is not a real friend. Anyway I believe your are “kindred spirits”, as you said. You both are helping Satan, the Great Evil Spirit, who “is misleading the entire inhabited earth” (Revelation 12:9), including some posters on these sites who do not realize they fell in the “trap of the Great birdcatcher” Psalm 91:3.

skyrainbow says: “We see now a massive attack on a lonely voice who is crying in this wilderness of bitterness, wounded pride and self-pitty….What pitiful for the few ones who have not endured and “have shrink back to destruction” (Hebrews 10:39)and seeking some surrogates on these sites of despair.”

And: “You both are helping Satan, the Great Evil Spirit, who “is misleading the entire inhabited earth” (Revelation 12:9), including some posters on these sites who do not realize they fell in the “trap of the Great birdcatcher” Psalm 91:3.”

Skyrainbow, I must continue to express my concern about such statements which are clearly described in the Watchtower as being “….a very unfair and untrue type of propaganda…. assumes a superior air of dismissal of an opponent’s viewpoint, treating it as rather pathetic and really not worth attention….in order to evade questions that they cannot answer….So they resort to making assertions, and they scoff at all who dare to dispute them.” ~ Watchtower 1978, pg.4, par.2

This type of labeling also reflects the mindset described in an Awake! magazine article: “Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts. Name-calling slaps a negative, easy-to-remember label onto a person, a group, or an idea. The name-caller hopes that the label will stick. If people reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative label instead of weighing the evidence for themselves, the name-caller’s strategy has worked.” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.1

Sky, perhaps you just don’t realize that this is what you are doing. Please take a few moments and carefully review your posts and ask yourself: “Am I truly responding with mildness and respect? What “clear, logical reasoning” have I used to discuss my differences of opinion? What “factual” information have I presented to refute the statements and information presented by others with which I disagree?” ~ 1 Peter 3:15

Sky, after contemplating the above questions, please give careful consideration to the following comments found in a Watchtower article from 1978: “….True educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists hammer hard on their view and discourage discussion….Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target. Many fall easy prey because it takes no effort to feel, whereas thinking is hard labor. And the propagandist sees to it that his message is made to seem wise, the right and moral one, and gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure—so they say. Propagandists have little respect for people’s thinking abilities….” ~ Watchtower 1978, pg.3, par.1,2

With the above in mind, Sky, let’s take a minute and briefly consider the following part of your comment in post #121: “Last year 7.782.346 loyal ones served their Creator because they love him with all their heart. We rejoyce in the fact that 268.777 new ones, symbolized their dedication to Jehovah – and not to men as some falsely are claiming. This means that 5168 were baptized on average each weekend!”

Well Sky, yes, those are some impressive numbers. However, that is what they are, numbers. Numbers or statistics, do not in and of themselves offer absolute proof as to whether something is right or wrong; approved or disapproved. In this regard, please consider the following scripture: “Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.” ~ Matthew 7:22,23

Also, please prayerfully reflect on the following words of caution by Jesus found in the Bible book of Luke: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.” ~ Luke 21:8

So, once again, we can see the value and wisdom of the Bible counsel found in Proverbs: “A simple man believes every word he hears; a clever man understands the need for proof.” (Prov. 14:15 The New English Bible)

“But do most people carefully analyze the real issues involved….? Or do they just accept what they are told?” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.10

Sky.
l see you have all the watch tower answers anyway. Can i ask you a question though.
Did Paul on his conversion go straight to the the brothers and join them becoming a congregation?

Galatians 1:15 But when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with any human being, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were already apostles before me, but I went away at once into Arabia, and afterwards I returned to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days; 19 but I did not see any other apostle except James the Lord’s brother. 20 In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!

Also to answer a question about we needing and orgaisation.
did you realise that the sheep were scattered all around the earth. They were meeting in homes if possible. Matt 26: 31 Acts 15:36 James 1;1 1Peter1;1 “We also are scattered all ove rthe world.
Only our father knows his true sheep. The true sheep will speak in unity as they mature.
No buildings. No halls. Some where on there own far away from anyone.
Paul did nto go to Jerrusalam for 3 years then only stayed a short time.. He went out on his own.
The Hol;y Spitrit was his teacher.Then 16vbyears later he finally went and met some older men. Not the same as elders you have.

For most of us hear we are with others in small groups reading the scriptures praying and again letting the Holy Spirit quide. Not any man. We encourage each other with what we are know finding out.
Its all in Gods hands. l pity the w/tower when Jesus returns.’He will show no mercy on the faithless men who never relied on his Spirit.
Ruth

Sky let me say one other thing.
We have no devisions for our future. We see Christ has not returned as yet. When he does everyone will know about it all around the earth.
1stly there will be announcement. Then a trumpet blast. Then all will see him coming in the clouds.
The ones that pierced him are ones who have rejected him right throughout the ages including the romans that killed him. Even now in this century ones that are still alive and have not reconized the father and his son will see him and be very affraid. ‘He did not come invisably in 1914. That is a w/tower lie.
They the true sheep have started to follow the Shephard who is incharge of Gods sheep. Ones who are scattered around the earth even to day.
These sheep are coming out of religions into Gods loving arms. They all say they are in Jesus.
1 john 4:4 greater than he that is in me than he that is in the world.
Jesus lives in our hearts. ‘Come out of her my people” They are by the millions to Jesus Christ the son of the living God.

Thanks for your comments Ruth. I always get something encouraging out of them.But I was curious about why you worried that you might sound like a pharisis. I always thought of you as a caring, person zealous for the truth, and if you had it your way, everyone would know TTATT, and have a loving relationship with Jah and Christ, Anyway that’s the picture I get of you and I enjoy your insights.

skyrainbow says:
Skyrainbow: February 6, 2013 at 5:09 am
“Ruth, it is Gods will that instead being a loose association of spiritual-minded individuals, true worshippers merge in a tight community of faith. The Bible exhorts worshippers to speak in agreement, to avoid divisions, and to be “fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thougt” (1 Corinthians 1:10)
Those words would make little sence if God wanted people to worship him only as individuals apart from one another.”

So ‘true worshippers’ are an army that are tight. So what, Skyrainbow, so were the Nazis – what does that prove?

Can you please show me where Jesus shows that UNITY is the identifying mark of his followers? I would be grateful.

Can I just get you to click on on the miss-spelled words on you posts so we can actually understand what you’re saying, please Skyrainbow. You spell and write like a doctor.

“Frank, your friend Cedars is not coming to your rescue, as you hoped. Mayby he is not a real friend. Anyway I believe your are “kindred spirits”, as you said. You both are helping Satan, the Great Evil Spirit, who “is misleading the entire inhabited earth” (Revelation 12:9), including some posters on these sites who do not realize they fell in the “trap of the Great birdcatcher” Psalm 91:3.”

Delightful as ever, my little ray of sunlight. Likely the reason why Cedars will not reply is that he wants nothing more to do with you. He banned you from his site and that’s the end of that. I merely informed him because it’s the proper thing to do.

“Regarding them, the psalmist said: “Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies.” (Psalm 139:21, 22)

“It was because they intensely hated Jehovah that David looked on them with abhorrence.

“Apostates are included among those who show their hatred of Jehovah by revolting against him.

“Apostasy is, in reality, a rebellion against Jehovah. Some apostates profess to know and serve God, but they reject teachings or requirements set out in his Word.

“Others claim to believe the Bible, but they reject Jehovah’s organization and actively try to hinder its work. When they deliberately choose such badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of their makeup, then a Christian must hate (in the Biblical sense of the word) those who have inseparably attached themselves to the badness.

“True Christians share Jehovah’s feelings toward such apostates; they are not curious about apostate ideas. On the contrary, they “feel a loathing” toward those who have made themselves God’s enemies, but they leave it to Jehovah to execute vengeance.—Job 13:16; Romans 12:19; 2 John 9, 10.”

Frank, that your ‘friend’ Cedars “wants nothing more to do with me” is possible because he is no Christian anymore. But, could it be, he does not want to be identified with the specialist of the four-letter-words? Ephesians 4:29,31.

Ruth, I respect you, but why are you ignoring scriptures as 1 Corinthians 1:10, that are pointing to an organised form of worship as the kind that is acceptable to Jehovah? I try another. “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together” Hebrews 10:24,25.
Ephesians 4:2,3 admonishes true worshippers to act “with complete lowliness of mind and mildness, with long-suffering, putting up with one another in love, earnestly endeavoring to observe te oneness of the spirit in the united bond of peace”. How could you comply with this admonition if your worship were independant and detached from other worshippers?

skyrainbow says: “….why are you ignoring scriptures as 1 Corinthians 1:10, that are pointing to an organised form of worship as the kind that is acceptable to Jehovah? I try another. “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together” Hebrews 10:24,25. Ephesians 4:2,3 admonishes true worshippers to act “with complete lowliness of mind and mildness, with long-suffering, putting up with one another in love, earnestly endeavoring to observe te oneness of the spirit in the united bond of peace”. How could you comply with this admonition if your worship were independant and detached from other worshippers?

Skyrainbow, perhaps you are ignoring the following scripture: “Again I truly say to YOU, If two of YOU on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them due to my Father in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.” ~ Matthew 18:19,20

Additionally: “In case my own father and my own mother did leave me, Even Jehovah himself would take me up.” ~ Psalms 27:10

Also, please consider the following comment from the Watchtower magazine: Beware of “organization.” It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others’ consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God’s Word today. (Watchtower Sept. 15, 1895, p. 216 ~ Quoting Charles Taze Russell, 1st President and founder of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society)

Interesting comment by Brother Russell isn’t it? Now why did he make such an observation, cautioning against organization? Food for thought? Research is the key; so I urge you to do just that, and find out for yourself the reasons why Brother Russell held to this position about avoiding organization. The answers are quite enlightening and provide a thought provoking window into how the 1st century Christian Congregation functioned. In this regard another valid and essential question is: “Was there actually a governing body in the 1st century Christian Congregation?” Brother Fred Franz, when addressing the 59th graduating class of Gilead in the fall of 1975, shines a bright light on the answer to this question while making some interesting observations with a beautiful and powerful scriptural exposition of various accounts in Acts. At the time he was serving as the Vice-President of the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society. You can listen to the talk for yourself; there is also a transcript of the talk on the same page underneath the video:

Finally, Skyrainbow, while we are on the subject of “organization”, would you agree that the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses is organized as a hierarchy just like the Catholic Church? Are you comfortable comparing Jehovah’s Witnesses with being like the Catholic Church? Do you feel that the Catholic Church hierarchy follows the pattern of the 1st century Christian Congregation?

So, once again, we can see the value and wisdom of the Bible counsel found in Proverbs: “A simple man believes every word he hears; a clever man understands the need for proof.” (Prov. 14:15 The New English Bible)

“But do most people carefully analyze the real issues involved….? Or do they just accept what they are told?” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.10

Sky this is probably something your not aware of. When Jehovah brings people out of false religions he takes them under his private wing. They read the word, not with mans help, but only with the help of Gods Holy Spirit.
They come from everywhere with different teachings. ‘But the one thing they all have in common is there love for the Father and Son.

Jesus being the shephard makes sure his sheep are feed. ‘They now know they cannot trust man mad religions anymore. There faith is put to the test by trusting ONLY ih the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit reveals the truth.

Throughout the Bible the Holy Spirit is referred to as the, “Spirit of truth.” In John 16:13 Jesus explains it this way, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.” In 1 Corinthians 2:9-10 Paul explains that, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him— but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.” The Holy Spirit is our teacher and our instructor. He guides us into knowledge of the Son. He teaches us the things of God. He reveals the truth.

This is the way Sky, true Christians are learning real truth. ‘It takes time to weed lies from our minds and we are all in different areas willing to learn though. We with love undersatnd each other the best we can. ( Well not all)
If you ask many in your congregation what they truly believe you will be quite shocked! Many do not believe what is being taught there. :The would keep it quite secret because if they dont believe all the Governing body says year in year out they will be called apostates. Apostates to whom? Only to an organisation because most will always believe and love God anyway.

So you see even though we are in unity we area ll growing at different rates. We are here to gether. We pray in the phone to gether.We do not need to be in any building to be real christians.
We still do not stop gathering ourselves to gether.
Bye Sky. God Bless you l pray for you to see what some of us are seeing. Love you
Ruth (These small letters are so hard for me to see

Sky this is probably something your not aware of.
When Jehovah brings people out of false religions he takes them under his private wing. They read the word, not with mans help, with the help of Gods Holy Spirit.

They come from everywhere with their different teachings. From all different man made religions. ‘But the one thing they all have in common is there love for the Father and Son.
Jesus being the shepherd makes sure his sheep are feed. ‘They now know they cannot trust man made religions anymore. There faith is put to the test by trusting ONLY in the Holy Spirit. ”The Holy Spirit is the one who reveals the truth to them.

Throughout the Bible the Holy Spirit is referred to as the, “Spirit of truth.” In John 16:13 Jesus explains it this way, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.” In 1 Corinthians 2:9-10 Paul explains that, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him— but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.” The Holy Spirit is our teacher and our instructor. He guides us into knowledge of the Son. He teaches us the things of God.
This is the way Sky, true Christians are learning real truth. ‘It takes time to weed lies from our minds and we are all in different areas willing to learn though. We try to put into practice with love and understanding each other the best we can. ( Well, not all have patience for this)
If you ask many in your congregation what they truly believe you will be quite shocked! Many do not believe what is being taught there. They would keep it quite secret because if they don’t believe all the Governing body says year in year out they will be called apostates. Apostates to whom? Only to an organization because most will always believe and love God anyway.
So you see even though we are in unity we are all growing at different rates. We are here to gether. We pray on the phone to gether.
We do not need to be in any building to be real Christians. Some choose to meet that way! Others do not stop gathering their selves to gether in other ways.
Bye Sky.
God Bless you l pray for you to see what some of us are seeing.

“skyrainbow says:
February 7, 2013 at 8:06 am
Frank, that your ‘friend’ Cedars “wants nothing more to do with me” is possible because he is no Christian anymore. But, could it be, he does not want to be identified with the specialist of the four-letter-words? Ephesians 4:29,31.”

Skyrainbow, you use your four-letter-word, ‘love,’ like a swear-word. I didn’t use mine, you did! You are wasting your time trying to convince intelligent people here that you have any other intention than to rant, judge, and play the superior. You are disobedient to your masters, and come where you are not wanted. I have supplied more than enough evidence from a site you were banned from for the very reason you claim you: ‘love’ (arghhh!)us.

Feel free not to waste any more of our time on fruitless pursuits.

Frank V

Oh, and if you want to know what true Christian love is, please see 1 Corinthians 13.

“4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”

Thanks for being so kind to follow my post to Sky with such love and understanding Frank?
Surely you cannot be an older brother as they have more sense than you do it seems.
Or would you rather see her dead. Why do l say that? Well you send no encouragment to any of us let alone Sky. l see her point of view. “You have no excuses.”

Ruth, Skyrainbow represents what I hate the most about supercilious, two-faced ‘Christians.’ The difference between you and me, apart from your overbearing sentimentality, is that I’ve already taken that journey with this fake Christian (a consensus opinion). All I wish to do is spare anyone else so we can get on to discussing something more interesting and progressive.

As I said, Ruth, the Samaritans await your efforts. Perhaps you can ‘encourage’ Skyrainbow to become a Neo-Nazi or a member of the Ku Klux Klan – she’s half-way there already.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
Ruth

JJ, I sense you have sympathies towards my view. I admire that you stay in the background and enjoy the show. Your lack of judgement (unlike some)gives me hope. I enjoy sarcasm as both a way to inform and to entertain. Few understand this and tend to take it personally. This is regrettable.

Ruth, you should not be so quick to tar everyone here with the same brush. I am presently a theistic agnostic, which I became when I started to look at TTATT. In short I got myself the religious education I should have at the start and not wasted so many years in vain hope that something would have become of my ‘faith.’

I don’t believe any more in the ‘Christian new personality.’ I believe that once you remove ‘the hope within them’ the true person comes out. This is why Skyrainbow holds no illusions for me. She needs only to have a cause and a soapbox. We have seen this many times. Cedars got wise earlier on in the piece, though, for a number of reasons, I wanted her to stay on JW Survey. Cedars ditched her before any of us could ‘get our teeth in’ to this person (man or woman). Now I believe he probably did the right thing. As you might know already, Cedars doesn’t need site-trolls to make his point-of-view known and discussed.

Interestingly, on another site http://apologeticfront.com/201.....apologist/, one of Skyrainbow’s counterparts (though I’m sure he’d disagree) was already blogging on the site’s subject. I grilled Rotheram2 about his naive view that the 1914 date has any significance Biblically. Once he knew I was a Witness he said:

“rotherham2
Hello Frankleeh,

I see I missed your above comments. Nothing personal, but I will have to curtail our discussion. I am sue (sure)you would not want me to violate my Christian conscience.

If someone else who is not an EX or current JW would like to take up this discussion, I would be more than willing to oblige.

Take care,
Rotherham”

He hasn’t returned to the site to date. This may have been because I reminded him, like JimmyG did that, while Rotheram2’s conscience bothered him about talking to a critic of some of the GB’s policies and teachings (what I believe are the damaging ones), he had already violated the GB’s instructions to stay away from sites that criticise their teachings! He may yet return.

Now,despite the fact that he should have known this, he is at least applying what he believes is a well-honed conscience. I don’t think he’s done the right thing, but I can understand his reaction.

On the other hand, Skyrainbow, an acclaimed ‘faithful’ JW, has totally ignored the warnings and blissfully applied a double standard continuously. I think both she/he and Rotheram2 are searching, otherwise neither would be engaged in this habit, but it’s like I say, once their idiosyncratic vulnerabilities are exposed, the real person comes out.

And yes, Ruth, I initially quoted 1 Corinthians 13 because I believe it is an ideal, a goal to work towards, but even Paul recognised that people like Timothy were rare.

So that’s it, really. That’s why I grow weary of the Skyrainbows of this world. They help no one; they just make faces in the window and ring everybody’s bell, then run away.

Just look at Skyrainbow’s WT indoctrinated view of life in her comment on Gregg’s story about ‘revealing’ his real identity. It’s sad and pathetic really that a person can be so ‘mind controlled’ that they are bereft of any human emotions such as empathy and sympathy. These emotions are abandoned and replaced by brainwashed loyalty to a man made, cruel organisation.

JimmyG, I must admit, I have more respect for Gregg who, at last, has revealed his real identity than for someone who has not the courage to speak with the elders about his doubts and problems. Who is a “hidden rock below water” (Jude 12) in his congregation and who is going to the meetings with a recording device, hidden behind his tie!

Skyrainbow, why do you continue to engage in pasting labels on people? For instance, referring to JimmyG as a “hidden rock below water” is one such example.

Other examples from previous postings include referring to this website as “this wilderness of bitterness, wounded pride and self-pitty”. You then follow that denigrating label with a label of condescension and judgment: “….What pitiful for the few ones who have not endured and “have shrink back to destruction” (Hebrews 10:39)”. And then once again you paste another disparaging label on this website and its blogs with the belittling phrase “these sites of despair.”

With all due respect, in all of the above examples, have you offered reasoned, respectful dialogue or appealed to carefully reasoned scriptural exposition? Simply listing a scripture in parentheses offers no justification for the labels. 1 Peter 3:15 admonishes Christians to make “a defense….for the hope in you, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.” Further, the apostle Paul exhorts Christians to offer sacred service to God with our “power of reason”. ~ Romans 12:1

Sky, do you recognize that your postings, which actively engage in labeling while ignoring valid, reasonable questions and avoiding any meaningful dialogue and discussion of the issues involved, are classic examples of propaganda techniques? Perhaps you feel that I am being harsh or unfair in characterizing your posts in this manner? Perhaps you feel that I am just trying to dismiss your point of view?

If so, please let me draw your attention to the following excerpt from an Awake! magazine article: “Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts. Name-calling slaps a negative, easy-to-remember label onto a person, a group, or an idea. The name-caller hopes that the label will stick. If people reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative label instead of weighing the evidence for themselves, the name-caller’s strategy has worked.” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.1

Also, please carefully consider the following excerpt from a Watchtower article: “….True educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists hammer hard on their view and discourage discussion….Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target. Many fall easy prey because it takes no effort to feel, whereas thinking is hard labor. And the propagandist sees to it that his message is made to seem wise, the right and moral one, and gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure—so they say. Propagandists have little respect for people’s thinking abilities….” ~ Watchtower 1978, pg.3, par.1,2

Sky, I would be interested in knowing your view of these articles and the propaganda techniques described. Considering the information presented in these articles, how do you think we (all of us posting on this blog) can endeavor to have a reasoned discussion on the issues while avoiding the pitfall of classic propaganda techniques? What is your point of view?

And this raises another issue with your posts. A number of individuals have attempted to engage you in a reasoned dialogue concerning factual, documented information that has been brought to your attention including an effort to have a Bible based scriptural discussion and respectful exchange of ideas. However, it appears that you simply ignore the questions, documented evidence, and scriptural exposition presented by others. Your posts often consist of labeling and scripture quoting, while occasionally offering a fable or illustration to convey your viewpoint; but you obviously and consistently evade answering any reasonable, valid questions that are posed to you concerning your posts, as well as avoiding response to documented evidence brought to your attention. You simply come back with more posts attempting to paste negative, disparaging labels on individuals as well as labeling the website, quote a scripture or two that you feel supports your viewpoint and/or agenda, throw in an occasional fable, illustration, statistics, etc. and then: wash, rinse, repeat.

As an example, please refer to the following posts:
skyrainbow says:
January 16, 2013 at 3:25 pm
This “brillant and encouraging” article and the accompanying video reminds me of the words: “For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories” 2 Timothy 4:3,4.

JJ says:
January 17, 2013 at 4:03 pm
Brother Skyrainbow

Would you be willing to explain why you feel that this scripture applies? I personally have not set myself up “as a teacher to tickle the ears of anyone” on this website. I am not above anyone else and certainly do not have the knowledge and experience that a number of other commenters here have.

It is my blog, this is true, and I take responsibility for what I put on it, and I stand behind the articles and opinions that I write about. Here are some questions I hope you can answer:

• In what ways have we at JWStruggle “turned aside to false stories”?
• What “healthful teaching” are we not putting up with?
• How are brothers and sisters that visit here having “their ears tickled”?

These questions are not asked sarcastically, but in humility. Share your opinions and feelings with us as to why you quoted the scripture in 2 Timothy 4:3,4 when you have time.

Thanks,
Eric aka JJ

So, Skyrainbow, JJ responded to your post in a very respectful manner and asked some valid, reasonable questions. He did not take offense, but responded in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15 and Romans 12:1. However, it is disappointing, if not quite telling, that you have not given him a dignified response to the questions he respectfully posed to you? You quoted 2 Timothy 4:3,4 and applied it to JJ’s article in a very disparaging manner, but to date you have avoided answering his questions. Do you feel that his questions are unreasonable? Do you feel that he has no right to ask the questions?

You may not realize it Sky, but your unwillingness to engage the dialogue and provide a calm, reasoned response to JJ’s questions does not lend credibility to your attack of his article. Merely quoting a scripture is not enough. Logical reasoning that demonstrates the clear application of the scripture quoted is necessary to establish a valid argument. This may include presenting documented evidence in order to expose invalid statements, deceptions, falsehoods, etc. or in order to establish a known truth. Or it may include asking legitimate, reasonable questions to probe further beneath the surface and get to the heart of the matter. And yes, it’s hard work, requiring a lot of research, time, effort and critical thinking ability; searching for clear, reasoned, established facts and truths; discarding the propaganda, innuendo, hearsay, etc. And sometimes, we have to accept the reality that there is not necessarily an absolute truth for some issues. In this vein, some issues concerning Christians are conscience matters and cannot be dogmatically or authoritatively answered from the Scriptures; there may be principles involved, but it is up to each Christian to decide according to their individual conscience before God and Christ. ~ 1 Corinthians 4:6; 1 Corinthians 10:25-30; Romans 14:10

I would also encourage you to review the posts directed to you by Ruth and danielB. They have offered you very well reasoned Scriptural responses in a warm Christian spirit of kindness and concern. Please take a moment to reflect on their words and the Scriptural basis for their reasoning.

In conclusion Sky, I notice that you gave the following advice to Frank in some earlier posts:

1.Take a walk
2.Take a breath
3.Try progressive muscle relaxation
4.Take a mental break
5.Reframe your situation (very important)
6.Ask Jehovah to help you to stay calm (the most important)

Skyrainbow- you just keep repeating yourself and it’s getting boring. I’ve already explained why I have to resort to doing this. You are brainwashed- you are a WT automaton, only able to make programmed responses. You ignore the many appeals to explain why you disobey your beloved GB by repeatedly returning to sites like this. You are the one that needs to seek help from your elders, not me. You see, I have no doubt that the WT is NOT Jehovah’s org, so there is nothing for me to discuss with any JW elders.

As far as my elders are concerned- not long ago I was an elder and I’ve seen these very same men in action. They are just like you- I don’t need to seek help from robots. That’s why I come here, where real people actually discuss different topics, not just preach and mindlessly repeat themselves over and over like you do.

Perhaps the intelligent can get the height, length, and breadth of your now, Skyrainbow. You didn’t even get your case’s contrast to Rotheram2! HE IS THE ONE WITH A CONSCIENCE – as JimmyG says – you are just a robot, a zombie, only able to make limited responses to complex situations.

Skyrainbow needs a psychiatrist, JimmyG, not a counsellor, she clearly has emotional and probably mental problems. But one thing I will say: you do your masters proud.

Frank V

PS. Wait for the cries of persecution and cruelty! Don’t bother, Skykrainbow, we’ve heard it all before.

skyrainbow- as far as real identities, do you have the ‘courage’ to give your real name? You who habitually frequents so called apostate websites without a prick of conscience. You who believes loyalty to the WT equates with loyalty to Jehovah. But you who then contravenes that loyalty by not obeying the command of your WT masters, the GB.

skyrainbow- let me spell this out for you, as you either don’t get or choose to ignore the point I am making.
1. You say that you have respect for Gregg ‘who, at last, has revealed his real identity’. Can you grasp this point? Then I’ll move on to point 2.
2. Repeatedly you have been asked why you continue to frequent this site (and others I presume) in direct violation of the WT’s command to NOT do so. We’re still waiting for a credible answer. Got that point? Moving on…..
3. If you are so confident that frequenting a site like this is ok with the GB, then why not reveal your real name and locality? What have you got to hide? If Gregg can do it and you respect him for it, then follow his lead.

You see, you applaud Gregg for ‘outing’ himself, but you will not do so yourself. This is hypocrisy. You know, from the standpoint of a ‘loyal’ JW, what you are doing is wrong. You are leading a double life. If discovered, it will lead to an investigation of you by your elders.

Get yourself some of that ‘courage’ you speak of. By the way I do not seek or want your ‘respect’.

“Apostates and other opposers argue that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 BCE, but in 587 BCE, and provide what they claim is archaeological evidence to support this. If 607 BCE is wrong, then the “seven times” prophecy ending in 1914 CE would be wrong also.”

Here’s his/her reasoning:

“However, as Jehovah’s Witnesses, we only go by what the Bible says. Yet they claim that the Bible supports 587 BCE as the correct date too!”

“Unsurprisingly, they do not mention that the 587 BCE date is a chronological disaster — biblically speaking.”

“Instead of dealing with these enormous critical problems, 587 promoters either ignore them, keep them secret, or pretend they don’t exist!”

“This website outlines plainly the scriptural chaos caused by 587 BCE which men like Franz and Jonsson don’t like to talk about. We, the authors, once believed in 587, but after a careful examination of the scriptural evidence, can see that 587 is wholly wrong.”

“P.S. We did not set out to examine the secular evidence, as the Bible is supreme to anything else. However, we were bemused to see that the little bit of secular evidence we did examine actually supports 607!”

Wow! Such brilliant reasoning! Here this masterful deliberator reminds us that sources like the British Museum and all other qualified archaeologists are not only wrong, but they are opposers of the TRUTH!!!

Throw away your history books! They’re all wrong! Save yourself the bother of historical examination! It was all so simple. Imagine that! If 607 BCE is wrong, then the 1914 date is wrong!!

So all you nasty qualified men and women who have suffered to get where you are today, just go cap-in-hand to those who have the TRUTH and you’ll all feel so much better!

Hi JJ. With your permission, there are a few things I would like to say to Skyrainbow:

Skyrainbow, when someone says, “Frank, I can assure you, my children have been always very safe in the Christian congregation of J.W. In our circuit I know only one congregation with a paedophilia case. The elders informed the authorities, he was disfelloshipped and is now active in a group of apostates. You can be sure, in proportion, apostate groups have more paedophiles than J.W. (skyrainbow November 14, 2012 at 5:48 am)”, people understandably get righteously indignant with such unfounded, unproven, talk.

I do regret some of the phrases I have used with regard to your stance (and my being unnecessarily personal with you) on this site because I am reacting like the bully who has been bullied. Another thing that is regrettable is that many would like to hear your story and your reasoning behind why you are so ‘loyal’ to the TEACHINGS you espouse, and yet you have yet to be forthcoming on this.

Many here will understand when I remind them that the ‘loyalty’ of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is purely one-way. Many here have expressed how this is, and come here because they naturally crave the encouragement they can no longer receive from their spiritual brothers and sisters (I say ‘brothers’ and ‘sisters’ because I don’t believe elders or others can rescind a dedication and baptism made only to God) or their ‘loyal’ but ‘loving’ relatives in the faith.

There is no shortage of material that clearly shows that this form of non-Biblical loyalty partnered with Unchristian action requires normally-loving people to shun their spiritual enemies in the streets, turn their shopping trolleys around in the supermarket, speak insultingly when attempts are made to retain former friendships, and be told they will enter eternal destruction if they don’t ‘repent.’

This process often begins by a member merely asking questions. This may indicate that they have been reading unauthorised Internet sites and can become marked from that time on. I do not believe this reflects the character of the founder of Christianity at all.

Skyrainbow, yes, I want you to stay, because JJ has said you have the right to express yourself here. I’m all for free speech, but please remember that there are others in the world other than yourself who have feelings.

I don’t want to be a mirror to your own religious anger and plan on ignoring you as much as I can so you can say what you need to say. But if you raise legitimate arguments, I and all here will also reserve the right to express a different view to you.

Hi JJ. I’ve been going over your judicial meeting sound files (I’ve listened many times)with a fine-toothed comb and am wondering why you never demanded that those who accused you came forward to give their testimonies personally (so you could cross-examine them as you are denied a representative).

As I have written in my essay The Martyring of Matthew Barrie, an accused man can claim his constitutional right to remain silent on the basis that the Bible says that “all things are established at the mouth of two witnesses.”

If the two witnesses failed to appear how could the elders “establish guilt” from the hearsay claims of third parties?

One way that is common with these star chamber cases is to ask whether you accept the authority of the tribunal. This is a time to claim your right to remain silent, because by answering they want you to save them the trouble of needing witnesses to your “apostasy.”

You pose a good question Frank. Why didn’t I exercise my right to have these accusers come forward? The answer is because they were my friends, and despite what they were doing to me (which they deemed a “righteous” thing) I did not want to put them through the anxiety and stress of it all.

They were at the ready to be conference called if it came to that since they live a few hours away. I told the elders that it wasn’t necessary. Jesus didn’t have to speak up when he was interrogated by the pharisees, nor did Stephen; but they chose to do so and it sealed their fate. I chose to speak and then allow the WT machinery to run its course as a testimony to what happens in these cases.

What is amazing is that, if correct, we have a beginning equation (2520 360-day-years [average Jewish lunar years]) from the beginning of the Jewish Exile to Babylon that brings us to 1878 AD; and an ending equation (2520 360 day-years [average Jewish lunar years]that apparently brings us to 1948 AD. Minus one from the other and you have verification that it was 70 Jewish average lunar years.

Astonishingly, this seems to prove that the Jewish Exile had to have been 70 360-day-years starting in 607 BCE, and not 365.25-day-years (solar years).

I felt like Einstein when E=MC2 fell into place!

Unfortunately, it also seems to prove that 607 BCE is the actual date as the 1878 date was worked out on this basis (which may mean that it wasn’t 607 AD on the solar calendar, of course). The upside is that there is no sign of 1914 in the whole deal!!! The WTBTS “coronation” date was worked out from the earliest beginnings using the less likely 365.25 calendar.

The point is we have double the calculations to verify and not the single 1 the WTBTS has with which it is so dogmatic.

There surely have to be flaws in these workings, and I would invite a discussion to figure them out.

Of course, all it may prove is that amazing co-incidences are not just possible, but probable when we’re looking for one.

“JJ says:
February 26, 2013 at 9:55 am
None of my direct family members are JWs anymore.”

You’ve probably guessed, JJ, why I asked this question. It relates to the personal cost for choosing our particular actions under stressful circumstances. In your case, your sacrifice was expected martyrdom and was well planned. This allowed maximum information to be recorded for others to learn from and many will learn from your efforts.

Matthew Barrie, on the other hand, knew nothing of the impending judicial case and was trying to avoid martyrdom as he has direct family members still with the Watchtower. As his wife is disassociated and Matthew is disfellowshipped, what chance will his children have to have a social life with other Witness family members? This is why I say social shunning is a form of persecution, because the stigma affects the innocent too (not that I’m saying Matthew and his wife aren’t innocent).

It is likely that, because the children will one day learn of the circumstances of their father’s religious demise, and especially if they hear the recordings (if they haven’t already) it may likely turn them against the former religion of their parents. How does this help to make disciples for Christ?

Hi Frank,
That’s some cool stuff. I am a history buff, but I am not so good at numbers, but I get the jest of what your saying. I am always interested in what others come up with since I no longer view the WTBS as having the sole monopoly on history facts. Thanks much.

“Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty —a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show. The true spirit of delight, the exaltation, the sense of being more than Man, which is the touchstone of the highest excellence, is to be found in mathematics as surely as poetry.”

The one main thing that makes 1914 less elegant is its relationship to motivation. If the Bible is invoked to prove an exegesis, then it alone must be used. In this prophecy, the Bible book of Numbers was used to show the Biblically-elegant and consistent principle that in prophecy a day equals a year, but then is overlooked when it came to interpreting the length of a “time.” If Revelation 12:6 is invoked to demonstrate the length of this prophetic time, then the prophet must find an equal Biblical principle to convert 360 days (a “time) to 365.25 days (modern solar year).

The Bible is silent on this and so 360 days it is. In the calculation above 1878 is derived according to the principle in Revelation 12:6 and so is 1948. Then we find that by subtracting the greater from the lesser figure we have exactly the time the Jews were in Babylon! Is this not elegant and ready to take its place somewhere on the podium?

After I had thought out the implications of the two original dates (1878 and 1948) I THEN by chance wondered whether the two figures would come out at 70. I had no knowledge at this time other than both figures had ‘8’ at the end. Wow!

Bearing in mind, in attempting to verify 1914 with the know Bible principle(s) at hand (“Make sure of the more important things”) I only set out to demonstrate that incredible coincidences can happen (1914 and the Great War), I am nonetheless bowled over by the mathematical elegance of the whole thing! Let’s see if others catch on.

Hi Frank.
You again have some very interesting points, and again I get the jest of what you are conveying. I regret that I do not get the full flavor of your message, because I can sense the “genius” of what you are writing about, but I will have to read what your posting several times. This is not due to any fault of your writing, but due to the intense research and complex understanding of something very beautiful indeed in which I at the moment I am slow to grasp. But I can identify with you in the fact that I have come across some pretty cool things also from much research , and then I find it sometimes fleeting me again in understanding, which I would expect from such mathematical elegance and higher wisdom. Thank you for the share. I wish that I could have you explain these things in person, I might better see all the dynamics of it more clearly, because, I think you are on to something, pretty cool.

Hi Freethinerinjah. I take from Russell (not CT) in this case that while one can argue the philosophy, we cannot argue the maths! Of course, 1914 is well-conditioned into the mind of the adherent and is likely to remain that way indefinitely.

Perhaps the implications are too great for those who need to know this information to decide fully on matters that affect their whole lives.

We likely get one go at consciousness in this life. If we going to spend it wisely we at least need to know about what we’re gambling.

Something I noticed yesterday:
607 minus 587 is 20 years
1914 minus 20 years is 1894
What happened in that year?
Well nothing spectacular that I can see, except the introduction of terrorism, which I suppose is a great issue today, but hardly significant in the way the WT portrays it. (1914 would be 1894 going by WT reasoning and taking into account unadmitted errors).
That’s all. I’m not a numbers boff.

Dear All;
I am old enough to have talked to many 1914 persons, and I think for 50 years after it was fair to think of it as significant in World or prophetic fulfillment.

At nearly a 100 years after, it seems more a consequence of developments people were not adjusted too. They were not ready for a machine war.

We will never know the day, til it is that day. But there are many components to the End Times.

There may be a calculation for the Fall of Babylon, however WT theology misses the “Ships of Kittim”, when you know that the 1335 can fit in as years!
Run your cursor over the “Reader” word at top or for a full breakdown try the link below;

The fact is that 1914 is simply NOT Biblically-significant. EVEN using the WTBTS’s self-claimed 607 BCE date.

Running the 2520 years from this WTBTS date brings us from 607 to 1878, not 1914. Russell did mention 1878 as significant but changed it as nothing significant noticeably happened in that year.

The evidence for each of the 2520 years being 360 days long is established in Revelation:

“When 1,260 Days = a time, times and half a time
In the Book of Revelation

“The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days” (Revelation 12:6).

“The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach” (Revelation 12:14).

“In verse 6 above, the time given is 1,260 days. But in verse 14, the time given is described as a time, times and half a time. This is most often interpreted as 3 and one-half years or 42 months. So verses 6 and 14 as noted above yield a 30-day month. Twelve months of 30 days equals 360-days in a prophetic year.

“The answer is that the Bible has been written with a “PROPHETIC YEAR” defined as 360 days in length. This is only applied to biblical prophecy. And it is important that to attain the 360-day year, you must let the Bible interpret the Bible.”

Russell and his successors had to rely on a 365.25 solar day-year to bring it to 1914 and the WTBTS has been dining out on the World War paradigm ever since.

Next year on the centenary of this date will we find the title of articles carry the title: “Governing Body Wrong – 1914 not Biblically Significant”? or will it be, “New Light on Heavenly Coronation of Jesus Christ”?

Point being 2520 is NOT stated in the Scripture, but based on clever solving of a problem not presented by the verse, but assumed. [& to ‘assume’ makes an ‘ass’ of ‘u’ and ‘me’]
Whereas 1290, 1335, 3 and half ARE stated along with time stream happenings to start counting.
We should solve the problem AS given by the verse.
B

Actually, the ‘crime’ here is reverse-engineering to end up at the desired date. What stood out to me when I did my research based on an interesting but vague comment that someone else had made (one of my “eureka” moments, was that this rather obvious fact had not occurred to most people before, including me.

Of course, one can wave the evidence in the faces of whole crowds of Witnesses and all they can shout is, “Impale him, impale him!” When one Christian was once asked, “What would you do if they discovered the body of Christ in a tomb in Jerusalem, what would you do?” He replied, “I would still believe that Christ was resurrected.”

Much like the Turin Shroud, scientific discoveries are only ‘true’ if they are stated or implied in the Bible.

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Site Policies

This site does not share any personal information with third parties. We do not store, share, or sell any information about your visit to others. We are not responsible for republished content from this site on other blogs or websites without our permission. This site is not affiliated with JW.org the official website used by Jehovah's Witnesses.
Commenting shall be closed on any article where angry, disrespectful or hate speech is occurring. Any comments deemed offensive may be deleted or edited as needed by the site admins. When leaving comments on any particular article, please try to stay on the topic at hand, or commenting for that article may be need to be closed, and/or off-topic comments may be removed. Comments that promote other sites/products not specifically endorsed by JWStruggle must be approved beforehand with site admin(s), or may be removed.
If you would like to start a new topic or idea, all are welcome to do so on the JWStruggle Forum, subject to the posting guidelines laid out there.
These policies are subject to change without notice, and were last updated on 9/2013. If you have any questions feel free to contact us at: jwstruggle@gmail.com.