So I haven't seen too much of Antetokounmpo outside of highlights. I know he is an athletic freak capable of some extraordinary things on the court but is he worthy of the 91 overall? I just don't see him play on a game to game basis to know how good and consistent he is.

So I haven't seen too much of Antetokounmpo outside of highlights. I know he is an athletic freak capable of some extraordinary things on the court but is he worthy of the 91 overall? I just don't see him play on a game to game basis to know how good and consistent he is.

I'm wondering how heavily weighted defense is in terms of OVR, because clearly Kawhi being the best defender in the league is what raises him up to be considered the 3rd best player in the game, but for some reason it's not so heavy that it keeps Harden from being the 4th.
Like what would OVRs be for a guy with maxed out offense and minium defense, vs a guy with the exact opposite. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the rankings, I think they are accurate, I'd just like more clarity. Which I guess I'll get within the weeks.

So I haven't seen too much of Antetokounmpo outside of highlights. I know he is an athletic freak capable of some extraordinary things on the court but is he worthy of the 91 overall? I just don't see him play on a game to game basis to know how good and consistent he is.

So I haven't seen too much of Antetokounmpo outside of highlights. I know he is an athletic freak capable of some extraordinary things on the court but is he worthy of the 91 overall? I just don't see him play on a game to game basis to know how good and consistent he is.

You should really tune into more Bucks games. I know that's not easy cause they're not going to be on national TV weekly, but really he is a special player.

Lol Pels still won't make playoffs in a sim tho (or they make 8 seed and sweep the NBA because bad sim engine)
I feel like I need to make a disclaimer but no shade intended just think it's funny 2K says Pels have the Best Pf and C but we all know this is a team who at best is 9th in the west.
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I'm wondering how heavily weighted defense is in terms of OVR, because clearly Kawhi being the best defender in the league is what raises him up to be considered the 3rd best player in the game, but for some reason it's not so heavy that it keeps Harden from being the 4th.
Like what would OVRs be for a guy with maxed out offense and minium defense, vs a guy with the exact opposite. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the rankings, I think they are accurate, I'd just like more clarity. Which I guess I'll get within the weeks.

Totally agree. That's why I questioned the Harden over Russell. I'd love to see the ratings for each. Russ did something I never thought was possible.
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I can't believe he even question that lol
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I just haven't seen him play enough to know. I remember watching him in one game last season, could have been during the playoffs, and I came away thinking "if he could get a consistent jumpshot he could potentially be the best player in the league." I simply don't know how well he plays on a game to game basis. Didn't realize he reached top 10 player in the league status.

I'm wondering how heavily weighted defense is in terms of OVR, because clearly Kawhi being the best defender in the league is what raises him up to be considered the 3rd best player in the game, but for some reason it's not so heavy that it keeps Harden from being the 4th.
Like what would OVRs be for a guy with maxed out offense and minium defense, vs a guy with the exact opposite. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the rankings, I think they are accurate, I'd just like more clarity. Which I guess I'll get within the weeks.

Aren't there different overall formulas based on the "player type", so for example, for a shooter like Korver, his defense doesn't weigh him down as much as it might for others, while a player like Tony Allen's shooting doesn't weigh him down as much since he's a defender type? I know this was the case in one of the prior 2K games at least (I wanna say like 2K15 maybe).

Aren't there different overall formulas based on the "player type", so for example, for a shooter like Korver, his defense doesn't weigh him down as much as it might for others, while a player like Tony Allen's shooting doesn't weigh him down as much since he's a defender type? I know this was the case in one of the prior 2K games at least (I wanna say like 2K15 maybe).

As far as I know it's currently position based rather than play style based. For example low ball handling won't affect the overall of a center as much as it would a point guard.

As far as I know it's currently position based rather than play style based. For example low ball handling won't affect the overall of a center as much as it would a point guard.

Hmmm...perhaps they changed it in recent years then. I definitely remember it used to be like:
Kyle Korver (as a lockdown defender): 60 overall
Kyle Korver (as playmaker): 65 overall
Kyle Korver (as spot up shooter): 75 overall
Therefore, Kyle Korver was displayed as a 75 overall because that was his highest rating.
I would think that based on the fact that these player roles still exist/the fact that you have guys with completely different types of games ending up with roughly the same rating, that this system is still in place, but I have no idea.

The confusion about how ratings are weighted into overalls just proves how silly it is to get upset about overall ratings. Hard to say who is underrated or overrated without knowing how the formula works.

Curry should be higher than Harden and Westbrook.
I like seeing Giannis, Boogie, and PG in the top ten even if they aren't widely considered top ten players right now. Lots of people have Wall, Kyrie, Paul in those spots.

Westbrook does absolutely nothing better than Harden lol
Inflated rebounds doesn't make him better.
Curry should be rated higher than Westbrook too.

Where do people get these garbage opinions from? Harden has improved defensive. A little. But he never been on Russell level on defense. Russell averaged a triple double. Harden was right behind him. But I figure those numbers will probably drop because of CP3. Same for Russell with PG in town. I love Harden. But his defense isn't as good as Russell. How does Russell go from a 96 to 94.
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I never like jumping over overall ratings. But why Harden rated high than Westbrook? Didn't Westbrook win MVP. 2k had him as a "One of a Kind Player"
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highkey think Harden should be a two time MVP right now tbh. Last season he deserved it over Steph and this year 2 rebounds separated him and Russ for both averaging a triple double and Harden beat the MVP Russ in the playoffs.
The NBA seems to change its narrative for MVP when they feel like it .
Last year it was Team Record to why Harden didn't get it and now this year it's Stats lol

So I haven't seen too much of Antetokounmpo outside of highlights. I know he is an athletic freak capable of some extraordinary things on the court but is he worthy of the 91 overall? I just don't see him play on a game to game basis to know how good and consistent he is.

Should be higher. The stuff he does all over the court is pretty remarkable. Anybody who has access to Buck games owes it to themselves to watch him. KD and Kobe both say he'll be MVP soon.

Team success =\= individual success. Holding a player responsible for the poor choices of his GM is silly. The Kings were incredibly poorly run for a long time, and only the last year or so have they started to look somewhat competent. The Pelicans have no depth, and no wings. It's basically all AD and Boogie, with a splash of Jrue. He's still undoubtedly the best center in the league lol. A prolific scorer with good playmaking ability. Good rebounder, solid interior defender. And he shoots 3's at a good clip now. He's evolved and expanded his game every year of his career.

So I haven't seen too much of Antetokounmpo outside of highlights. I know he is an athletic freak capable of some extraordinary things on the court but is he worthy of the 91 overall? I just don't see him play on a game to game basis to know how good and consistent he is.

Great defender and facilitator. Relentless getting to the rim mixed with a great pick and roll game. Improved jumper but still needs work. Now add all that to his athletic abilities and height/length and you have a monster deserving of a 91 rating. If a Kings game wasnt on last year I was watching the Bucks. That young core of theirs is interesting to say the least. Just hope Jabari can stay healthy cause they were fun to watch.

I like Giannis but he's not a top 10 player or should be rated 90+. He travels ALOT but refs have no idea what a travel is anymore so that doesn't matter. He's come along as a good playmaker and his athleticism is insane but he doesn't have a good jumper, terrible from 3pt land, and is very so-so from the FT line. He had his best season last year and it translated to 22pts, 7/8 rebs, and 5 asts. That qualifies as a 91 rating? Defense is pretty good so that gives him a boost but I couldn't give him that. 88/89 maybe but not a 91.
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And Harden over Westbrook and Curry?! Fuq no! Harden is a good facilitator but he had a monster complimentary roster for a run-and- gun 3pt shooting team. A ton of great 3pt shooters and 2 legitimate 6th man of the year candidates.
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I like Giannis but he's not a top 10 player or should be rated 90+. He travels ALOT but refs have no idea what a travel is anymore so that doesn't matter. He's come along as a good playmaker and his athleticism is insane but he doesn't have a good jumper, terrible from 3pt land, and is very so-so from the FT line. He had his best season last year and it translated to 22pts, 7/8 rebs, and 5 asts. That qualifies as a 91 rating? Defense is pretty good so that gives him a boost but I couldn't give him that. 88/89 maybe but not a 91.
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His steps are so ridiculously long it looks like a travel. His Gyro step (see what I did there...he's Greek, hence gyros) looks like something you haven't seen before. He can get from mid court to the hoop in 3 dribbles.
This is nuts.https://youtu.be/EbQp1ychWUQ
He's a better all around player than P. George IMO. He should be rated a 92 at least.
Who else would you put above him?

And Harden over Westbrook and Curry?! Fuq no! Harden is a good facilitator but he had a monster complimentary roster for a run-and- gun 3pt shooting team. A ton of great 3pt shooters and 2 legitimate 6th man of the year candidates.
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So since youre going to use this argument for Harden what will you say about curry and his amazing supporting cast? This only works comparing Westbrook and Harden seeing one is doing more with less .

His steps are so ridiculously long it looks like a travel. His Gyro step (see what I did there...he's Greek, hence gyros) looks like something you haven't seen before. He can get from mid court to the hoop in 3 dribbles.
This is nuts.https://youtu.be/EbQp1ychWUQ
He's a better all around player than P. George IMO. He should be rated a 92 at least.
Who else would you put above him?

Dude that's a travel or the closest thing I've ever seen to one. And I'm not sure I'd give PG13 a 90 rating either but I'm not mad at it looking at his body of work. He's literally the only player in the Eastern conference to give Lebron hell since his Heat playing days. The Pacers for swept last year but each game was close and PG13 was one giving them fits
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So since youre going to use this argument for Harden what will you say about curry and his amazing supporting cast? This only works comparing Westbrook and Harden seeing one is doing more with less .

Not saying he doesn't deserve his rating but I'm not giving a man who LED his team to 73-9 with historic offensive numbers a lesser rating than Harden. Curry's defense isn't that great but it's better than Harden's. Curry has a great supporting cast but I was talking about in terms of how Harden got his great assist numbers. The way the Rockets played was 2K-like in that they run a fast break using the same guy to do all the passing and shoot 3s in less than 7 seconds. If that's all you're gonna do and you actually build your team for that with EXCELLENT 3pt shooters, Harden's gonna get 12apg. How Westbrook got 10apg with a crappy team that wasn't built around him is beyond me.
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Team success =\= individual success. Holding a player responsible for the poor choices of his GM is silly. The Kings were incredibly poorly run for a long time, and only the last year or so have they started to look somewhat competent. The Pelicans have no depth, and no wings. It's basically all AD and Boogie, with a splash of Jrue. He's still undoubtedly the best center in the league lol. A prolific scorer with good playmaking ability. Good rebounder, solid interior defender. And he shoots 3's at a good clip now. He's evolved and expanded his game every year of his career.

Hint: Top 10 players should be leading their teams not whining, getting coaches fired, teammates traded, and consistently losing 60 games a year.
If you can't at least make your team semi competitive despite how bad your surrounding talent might be then you aren't a star.
Is there some version of Boogie that is a top 10 player? Yea sure, but not this headcase.

It's not hard to assist hunt in the NBA especially when you have the Ball in your hands the majority of the time. Russ supporting cast wasn't the greatest but it was far from the worse .
Harden just had his highest usage % of his career only about two ticks above what he's been using two years before . Harden is a great playmaker in general for a SG. He averaged 7.5 in 2015 /16 and 7.0 in 2014 /2015 with no Ryan Anderson, Gordon and Lou Williams .
These are hardens teams the last three seasons
Mike D system is super PG friendly in general but if you replaced Harden and Westbrook their stats prob look the same as they do now. Hell who knows what numbers Harden would put up if he had Westbrook usage % of 41% , harden only had 34% usage .

Boogie slander is crazy it's plain as day he was victim of a poorly run franchise in general . Same Franchise who drafted IT , watched him play good , was a friend of boogie and then didn't want to pay him .
Boogie is very very competitive and yes he has outburst but it's just he wants to win badly and couldn't with the help he had.

Lmao so you've never watched a game Cousins has played in. Good to know.

You beat me to it. Dude is a very underrated playmaker and ball handler. The last 2 years I've seen cross other big men over and pass out to the open man like a point guard.
I don't see how he's a "cancer." Getting techical fouls for overt reactions isn't a cancer. Never heard of any issues in the locker room with other teammates or issues off the court (there was some mention of something that happened with his brother tho). George Karl is rumored to be an a**hole on multiple teams he's coached. The one coach he did like and get along with was fired a few games after Cousins got injured with a crappy team left to play with, so the Kings were very inept.
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It's not hard to assist hunt in the NBA especially when you have the Ball in your hands the majority of the time. Russ supporting cast wasn't the greatest but it was far from the worse .
Harden just had his highest usage % of his career only about two ticks above what he's been using two years before . Harden is a great playmaker in general for a SG. He averaged 7.5 in 2015 /16 and 7.0 in 2014 /2015 with no Ryan Anderson, Gordon and Lou Williams .
These are hardens teams the last three seasons
Mike D system is super PG friendly in general but if you replaced Harden and Westbrook their stats prob look the same as they do now. Hell who knows what numbers Harden would put up if he had Westbrook usage % of 41% , harden only had 34% usage .

Was gonna respond to that assist hunt comment but you kinda made my point at the end. Not disagreeing with you on Harden's playmaking abilities or basketball skills in general. But there's no way I rate him over Curry. And I thought Harden should've gotten the MVP when Curry won his first.
And Westbrook's team was pretty awful, especially offensively. Defense was or has never been an issue with the Thunder in the last 5 or 6 years. Offense is their biggest drawback and no one besides Oladipo could facilitate or create his own shot, and Oladipo to me is a Westbrook v1.5 lol. No one on that team besides those two could dribble without losing the ball and that's a big hindrance when you need to score.
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Harden is better at everything than Westbrook, Shooting, Leadership, Passing, Handles, Drawing contact, Free throws, low post defense, and overall defense. If you think Westbrook is a good defender you dont watch basketball, or a hypebeast. Harden gets a bad rap but is actually a great low post defender and is above avg for his position. When he was wit okc, some even called him elite. His effort is what lowers his defense not skill.
Honestly it should be LBJ, KD, Harden. These are the only 3 guys that have proven to be able to carry a team by themselves to the playoffs, and wins. Kahwi is overrated. One great season doesnt make you the 3rd best player. He still plays on the spurs with popavich as a coach. Curry is awful on defense, the advanced stats make him look good becaues he plays in a team that hides him. He should be lower than Westbrook, becuase he is a product of his team. He couldnt do what Harden or Westbrook did this season. And its been shown, that if his jumper isnt falling, he doest add anything else to the team.
My opinion it should be
LBJ 97, KD 96, Harden 95, Westbrook 94, Kahwi 94, Curry 93, AD 93, Wall 92 ,PG 91, Kyrie 91, Cousins 91.

Harden is better at everything than Westbrook, Shooting, Leadership, Passing, Handles, Drawing contact, Free throws, low post defense, and overall defense. If you think Westbrook is a good defender you dont watch basketball, or a hypebeast. Harden gets a bad rap but is actually a great low post defender and is above avg for his position. When he was wit okc, some even called him elite. His effort is what lowers his defense not skill.*
Honestly it should be LBJ, KD, Harden. These are the only 3 guys that have proven to be able to carry a team by themselves to the playoffs, and wins. Kahwi is overrated. One great season doesnt make you the 3rd best player. He still plays on the spurs with popavich as a coach. Curry is awful on defense, the advanced stats make him look good becaues he plays in a team that hides him. He should be lower than Westbrook, becuase he is a product of his team. He couldnt do what Harden or Westbrook did this season. And its been shown, that if his jumper isnt falling, he doest add anything else to the team.*
My opinion it should be
LBJ 97, KD 96, Harden 95, Westbrook 94, Kahwi 94, Curry 93, AD 93, *Wall 92 ,PG 91, Kyrie 91, Cousins 91.*

Dude what? If YOU think Harden is good defender, then you don't watch or know basketball. Or have really bad eyesight. I suggest you get those things checked out immediately, they might be a health risk. Harden's a good defender.... HA!! 😂😂🤣🤣
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He should be lower than Westbrook, becuase he is a product of his team. He couldnt do what Harden or Westbrook did this season. And its been shown, that if his jumper isnt falling, he doest add anything else to the team.**

Dude, again, WHAT?! He LED his team to a 73-9 record, x2 MVP. He had a great team but he was the greatest asset on that team. Get the fuq off the internet man. Go...
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Harden is better at everything than Westbrook, Shooting, Leadership, Passing, Handles, Drawing contact, Free throws, low post defense, and overall defense. If you think Westbrook is a good defender you dont watch basketball, or a hypebeast. Harden gets a bad rap but is actually a great low post defender and is above avg for his position. When he was wit okc, some even called him elite. His effort is what lowers his defense not skill.*
Honestly it should be LBJ, KD, Harden. These are the only 3 guys that have proven to be able to carry a team by themselves to the playoffs, and wins. Kahwi is overrated. One great season doesnt make you the 3rd best player. He still plays on the spurs with popavich as a coach. Curry is awful on defense, the advanced stats make him look good becaues he plays in a team that hides him. He should be lower than Westbrook, becuase he is a product of his team. He couldnt do what Harden or Westbrook did this season. And its been shown, that if his jumper isnt falling, he doest add anything else to the team.*
My opinion it should be
LBJ 97, KD 96, Harden 95, Westbrook 94, Kahwi 94, Curry 93, AD 93, *Wall 92 ,PG 91, Kyrie 91, Cousins 91.*

The Curry disrespect on this forum has been rampant the past few days.

Dude, again, WHAT?! He LED his team to a 73-9 record, x2 MVP. He had a great team but he was the greatest asset on that team. Get the fuq off the internet man. Go...
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What he said is straight out of the Facebook comments section handbook. Curry has one of the best drive FG% in the league. He's fantastic cutting to the basket. If his shot isn't falling, he still drops 20+ with layups and free throws. He's also a good playmaker.

Dude what? If YOU think Harden is good defender, then you don't watch or know basketball. Or have really bad eyesight. I suggest you get those things checked out immediately, they might be a health risk. Harden's a good defender.... HA!! 😂😂🤣🤣
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I can tell you dont read. James Hrden is strong, and has shown he can hold his own on the block. You must get your basketball info from shaqtin a fool. Hard was tops for his position in contested shots, while westbrook was the worst. I know James has his lapses, but if you really think he sucks and curry or westbrook are better. Youre a hype beast that only follows the media narritives

Dude, again, WHAT?! He LED his team to a 73-9 record, x2 MVP. He had a great team but he was the greatest asset on that team. Get the fuq off the internet man. Go...
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You prove whats wrong with people. Curry is on a stacked team, pre KD and is even more stacked now. People didnt say he didnt carry GSW to that record.Its the fact he plays for them, he coudntdo what he does if he was on a team like Houston or okc. Replace him with any top 5 pg, and they still will be a 65+ win team. One of those MVPs he didnt deserve either. Last i checked when it mattered, the unanimous mvp disappered in that finals in 2016. Running around screens and shooting threes while the other team is worried with KD and Klay while being hid on defense must be nice. Not only are you fresh on offense but teams cant even focus on you.

I can tell you dont read. James Hrden is strong, and has shown he can hold his own on the block. You must get your basketball info from shaqtin a fool. Hard was tops for his position in contested shots, while westbrook was the worst. I know James has his lapses, but if you really think he sucks and curry or westbrook are better. Youre a hype beast that only follows the media narritives

I can tell you can't see, I told you to get those eyes checked out. I follow the NBA extensively as I love the game. Yes Harden's strong. So what? He's a guard, who the hell is he guarding on the block? His lapses? Oh, Jesus, they're much more than that. Dude flat out doesn't even try most of the time. I don't even have to watch Shaqtin a Fool. There's like 10 to 15 minute montages on YouTube dedicated to his bad defense. Westbrook didn't have his greatest season defensively with his offensive usage being what, 40%. But no, there will never be a time in his career where Harden will ever be a better defender than Westbrook. Just stop the madness man.
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You prove whats wrong with people. Curry is on a stacked team, pre KD and is even more stacked now. People didnt say he didnt carry GSW to that record.Its the fact he plays for them, he coudntdo what he does if he was on a team like Houston or okc. Replace him with any top 5 pg, and they still will be a 65+ win team. One of those MVPs he didnt deserve either. Last i checked when it mattered, the unanimous mvp disappered in that finals in 2016. Running around screens and shooting threes while the other team is worried with KD and Klay while being hid on defense must be nice. Not only are you fresh on offense but teams cant even focus on you.

Stacked? That team wasn't as stacked as you're making them to be. The team came into their own when two years prior to that 73-win season under Mark Jackson they were an afterthought who cracked 50 wins for the first time in who knows how long. Both those teams, outside of Curry (always injured), Klay(only known for his defense at first), and Draymond (2nd round pick), were players who were discarded veterans and semi-veterans no one really wanted. Livingston (injured), Speights (one dimensional), Barbosa (old), Iguodala (a player who was thought to never have lived up to his potential), McGee (shaqtin a fool recurring guest star).After that it was a bunch of rookies. Only when Kerr took over the team to fit the team to a style of play that involved a crap ton of passing and off ball screens and the players evolving as they have were they ever considered "stacked." When KD got there, they became stacked, but before then, if you said that the Warriors would be the team that would go on to win 2 finals in 3 years when Mark Jackson was their coach, they'd look and laugh at you.
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Edit: Oh, and I forgot Bogut (old and injury prone, see Cavs 2017).

I can tell you can't see, I told you to get those eyes checked out. I follow the NBA extensively as I love the game. Yes Harden's strong. So what? He's a guard, who the hell is he guarding on the block? His lapses? Oh, Jesus, they're much more than that. Dude flat out doesn't even try most of the time. I don't even have to watch Shaqtin a Fool. There's like 10 to 15 minute montages on YouTube dedicated to his bad defense. Westbrook didn't have his greatest season defensively with his offensive usage being what, 40%. But no, there will never be a time in his career where Harden will ever be a better defender than Westbrook. Just stop the madness man.
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Im trolling yet all the stats say Harden is better defender than Westbrook. The other guy says he doesnt need to watch shaqtin a fool because its youtube montages online showing his bad defense........his bases for harden being worse than westbrook is based off youtube montages, yet im a troll???

Where do people get these garbage opinions from? Harden has improved defensive. A little. But he never been on Russell level on defense. Russell averaged a triple double. Harden was right behind him. But I figure those numbers will probably drop because of CP3. Same for Russell with PG in town. I love Harden. But his defense isn't as good as Russell. How does Russell go from a 96 to 94.
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Why are you so upset?
Stats actually show that the difference in defense between Russ and Harden is negligible.
Russ is a trash defender and that's been known by non casuals for awhile. Yet I'm the one with the trash opinion. Calm down old man.

Why are you so upset?
Stats actually show that the difference in defense between Russ and Harden is negligible.
Russ is a trash defender and that's been known by non casuals for awhile. Yet I'm the one with the trash opinion. Calm down old man.

He's not Klay Thompson or Jimmy Butler, but I don't know where you're getting trash defender from. I've always said that stats can tell you part of a story but will never tell you the whole the story. No "non causal" will ever tell you that either. Not sure where you're getting your info from or who these non casual basketball fans to you talk with. I've got a good pair of eyes that, over time, will tell me everything I need to know. I've been watching Russ since his sophomore season, he's not a trash defender.
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Why are you so upset?
Stats actually show that the difference in defense between Russ and Harden is negligible.
Russ is a trash defender and that's been known by non casuals for awhile. Yet I'm the one with the trash opinion. Calm down old man.

Sorry about that. I'm just tried of this same rhetoric of stupid stats lol. It's just like 2k system in what is good defense. Just because you leave your man to rotate to another player and then your man scores because someone didn't pick him up. That's not what defense is all about. There are so many things. The old school lock down defender is a very rare thing. But with teams shooting so many 3's. Rotations are way more important. Gambling on defense can hurt. But I rather Russell who in my opinion makes a huge impact on defense then Harden who can get lazy at times. He's gotten better from those compilation videos of his bad sense.
The fact that he was 96 last season and won MVP. And this year he dropped. The formula must it changed. https://youtu.be/xYxI0PQsjZs
Now let this old man go take his meds. "He's crazy" lol
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He's not Klay Thompson or Jimmy Butler, but I don't know where you're getting trash defender from. I've always said that stats can tell you part of a story but will never tell you the whole the story. No "non causal" will ever tell you that either. Not sure where you're getting your info from or who these non casual basketball fans to you talk with. I've got a good pair of eyes that, over time, will tell me everything I need to know. I've been watching Russ since his sophomore season, he's not a trash defender.
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stats and eye test shows he's a bad defender by almost every metric man. being athletic doesn't make you a good defender.

Westbrook definitely effects the game defensively much more than Harden.
For starters he was 5th in the league in defensive rebounding. Which I'm not sure why it is a largely ignored defensive stat. It guarantees that your team gets the ball, equally important to forcing a turnover, arguably more important than contesting a shot. And that's not inflated number, he's led guards in that category for 3-4 seasons now, despite sharing floor time with KD, Ibaka, Kanter, Adams. He didn't need an inflated pace D'Antoni system to get his numbers. Dude chases rebounds from across the other side of the court.
He's a monster in the passing lanes. Sure you could make the case that he gambles, but he makes things happen. He gets steals, forces bad decisions. I don't know that I've watched a small guard have that type of impact in the passing lanes since young D Wade. He shoots from the off wing or block and is to the ball in a split second.... but of course someone giving that type of effort isn't playing any defense.
Did he take some regular season plays off? Of course, part of OKC's game plan required that. Anyone that's watched him play outside of this usage inflated season knows the type of impact he's capable of having on the defensive end.
This year in the playoffs he was 6th in deflections for guards, 3rd in loose balls recovered, 11th in contested 3's, his defensive rating in the playoffs was right next to Greek Freak, and Klay Thompson, 6th out of all guards. Led all guards in DREB%, was 2nd in steals, held shooters to -5.3% worse than their norm, and of course led in defensive rebounds. He's literally all over the place.
I know someone will say it "playoffs is way too small of a sample size", and that's a fair argument. But on the reverse of that it's also not fair to judge an 82 game season knowing everything else he has to do throughout the game. The defensive end is typically where he gets his rest. They usually don't even run him off screens, rather switch them all and let him stay mostly in one spot on the floor. Watching OKC play easily illustrates that. A lot of him not contesting as many shots isn't him just standing and watching his man shoot, it's letting someone else chase the shooters off the screen so Russ doesn't expel extra energy on that end.
Dude has to lead his team, and nearly the league, in points rebounds assists, all time high usage rate and an assist rate 2nd to only John Stockton. His per 100 possession stats make Big O's triple double year look average. It's fine for him to stand in an area at the defensive end (by design mind you) so long as he can play defense when it actually matters. Which he did, at a level higher than all but the top few guards did.
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I feel like this entire narrative has become greatly exaggerated over the course of the season. It reminds me of that off season a few summers ago when everyone was practicing their post moves with Hakeem, so all you heard about every player coming into the year was "well he worked with Hakeem in the off season".
If all Westbrook did was snatch rebounds away from teammates then maybe it would be of some concern. But you can make a video of any player and draw this same narrative, it's an 82 game season. The dude had over 800 rebounds.There are going to be instances where you can point the finger and say "look he stole that rebound from a teammate", especially with how aggressively he plays.
Plus he rebounds in so many other varieties. Of the top 40 rebounders last season Westbrook has the second highest average rebound distance, with LeBron being first. So not only is he getting rebounds with the bigs under the rim, but he's chasing down all the longer rebounds as well. Of the top 15 rebounders last season he has the lowest rebound chances, meaning the player was within the vicinity of 3.5ft of the rebound. So basically, he's working harder than the other top rebounds in the league to go and get all the rebounds that aren't close to him. Out of the top 50 rebounders in the league he was number 1 in reb chance %, meaning that his rebound rate per rebound chance was the best in the entire league.
He also has a low deferred rebound rate, which is the number of times a teammate grabs a rebound when both are in the rebound vicinity. That would play into his "stealing rebounds" agenda, but you would think if he were actually stealing rebounds it would be a more glaring number in terms of the other palyers. For example, Durant's is even lower than his (Curry's too) but we aren't complaining that he's taking boards from Draymond, he's tied with LeBron, just .02 below Greek Freak. Basically, for the most part, the guys who are low in this category are perimeter players. So Westbrook follows the norm here.
Statiscally speaking, and when you factor in he's a 6'3 guard who plays on the perimeter and not a 7 footer playing around the basket, you could actually make the case that hes the best rebounder in the league.
Also that entire narrative ignores what OKC does as a team. They want him to get the board so he can push the ball. The were one of the worst half court offenses in the entire league, they were the worst outside shooting team in the entire league. Their best half court offensive player was Enes Kanter who they can't even leave on the floor when teams go small because he can't cover anything on the perimeter. They want the ball in Westbrook's hands as quickly as possible because that is their best chance at scoring at the other end. Him snatching a ball that could have possibly been grabbed by Adams as well isn't at all a problem, Adams was going to outlet the ball to Russ anyways.

Westbrook definitely effects the game defensively much more than Harden.
For starters he was 5th in the league in defensive rebounding. Which I'm not sure why it is a largely ignored defensive stat. It guarantees that your team gets the ball, equally important to forcing a turnover, arguably more important than contesting a shot. And that's not inflated number, he's led guards in that category for 3-4 seasons now, despite sharing floor time with KD, Ibaka, Kanter, Adams. He didn't need an inflated pace D'Antoni system to get his numbers. Dude chases rebounds from across the other side of the court.
He's a monster in the passing lanes. Sure you could make the case that he gambles, but he makes things happen. He gets steals, forces bad decisions. I don't know that I've watched a small guard have that type of impact in the passing lanes since young D Wade. He shoots from the off wing or block and is to the ball in a split second.... but of course someone giving that type of effort isn't playing any defense.
Did he take some regular season plays off? Of course, part of OKC's game plan required that. Anyone that's watched him play outside of this usage inflated season knows the type of impact he's capable of having on the defensive end.
This year in the playoffs he was 6th in deflections for guards, 3rd in loose balls recovered, 11th in contested 3's, his defensive rating in the playoffs was right next to Greek Freak, and Klay Thompson, 6th out of all guards. Led all guards in DREB%, was 2nd in steals, held shooters to -5.3% worse than their norm, and of course led in defensive rebounds. He's literally all over the place.
I know someone will say it "playoffs is way too small of a sample size", and that's a fair argument. But on the reverse of that it's also not fair to judge an 82 game season knowing everything else he has to do throughout the game. The defensive end is typically where he gets his rest. They usually don't even run him off screens, rather switch them all and let him stay mostly in one spot on the floor. Watching OKC play easily illustrates that. A lot of him not contesting as many shots isn't him just standing and watching his man shoot, it's letting someone else chase the shooters off the screen so Russ doesn't expel extra energy on that end.
Dude has to lead his team, and nearly the league, in points rebounds assists, all time high usage rate and an assist rate 2nd to only John Stockton. His per 100 possession stats make Big O's triple double year look average. It's fine for him to stand in an area at the defensive end (by design mind you) so long as he can play defense when it actually matters. Which he did, at a level higher than all but the top few guards did.
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ojandpizza

I feel like this entire narrative has become greatly exaggerated over the course of the season. It reminds me of that off season a few summers ago when everyone was practicing their post moves with Hakeem, so all you heard about every player coming into the year was "well he worked with Hakeem in the off season".
If all Westbrook did was snatch rebounds away from teammates then maybe it would be of some concern. But you can make a video of any player and draw this same narrative, it's an 82 game season. The dude had over 800 rebounds.There are going to be instances where you can point the finger and say "look he stole that rebound from a teammate", especially with how aggressively he plays.
Plus he rebounds in so many other varieties. Of the top 40 rebounders last season Westbrook has the second highest average rebound distance, with LeBron being first. So not only is he getting rebounds with the bigs under the rim, but he's chasing down all the longer rebounds as well. Of the top 15 rebounders last season he has the lowest rebound chances, meaning the player was within the vicinity of 3.5ft of the rebound. So basically, he's working harder than the other top rebounds in the league to go and get all the rebounds that aren't close to him. Out of the top 50 rebounders in the league he was number 1 in reb chance %, meaning that his rebound rate per rebound chance was the best in the entire league.
He also has a low deferred rebound rate, which is the number of times a teammate grabs a rebound when both are in the rebound vicinity. That would play into his "stealing rebounds" agenda, but you would think if he were actually stealing rebounds it would be a more glaring number in terms of the other palyers. For example, Durant's is even lower than his (Curry's too) but we aren't complaining that he's taking boards from Draymond, he's tied with LeBron, just .02 below Greek Freak. Basically, for the most part, the guys who are low in this category are perimeter players. So Westbrook follows the norm here.
Statiscally speaking, and when you factor in he's a 6'3 guard who plays on the perimeter and not a 7 footer playing around the basket, you could actually make the case that hes the best rebounder in the league.
Also that entire narrative ignores what OKC does as a team. They want him to get the board so he can push the ball. The were one of the worst half court offenses in the entire league, they were the worst outside shooting team in the entire league. Their best half court offensive player was Enes Kanter who they can't even leave on the floor when teams go small because he can't cover anything on the perimeter. They want the ball in Westbrook's hands as quickly as possible because that is their best chance at scoring at the other end. Him snatching a ball that could have possibly been grabbed by Adams as well isn't at all a problem, Adams was going to outlet the ball to Russ anyways.

Thank you! My exact thoughts. The only small guard that cause probably for everyone is CP3. And even they say he plays bad defense lol
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