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Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

The point is that he knows it exist and thus should be ready for it. I.e. Kabuto knew that the brothers would attempt to catch him in a genjutsu, thus he was prepared to counter their efforts specifically.

Considering Orochimaru was subjected to it firsthand, they would in fact know quite a bit about it afterward. Considering that Minato's main fighting style lacks handsigns, it would be obvious that he's up to something if he stops to make handsigns and thus Kabuto should take caution. It would be ridiculous for Kabuto not to react to Minato acting differently. Nor does he lack the luxury of doing so. Aside from the fact that doing that would also protect from any assault from Jiraiya, the majority of his defensive tactics would also enable him to create an opening for his own assault.

Acting differently? Maybe minato's fighting style rely on his hiraishin and rasengan, but it doesn't mean he dont have any techniques that needs any hand signs. If kabuto is orochimaru's pet, orochimarunmust told him something about minato's caliber. If jiraiya and tsunade knew minato's skills and what kind of ninja he was, then I'm pretty sure oro too. And it's really ridiculous for kabuto to react on minato just because he form a seal for his jutsu.

And minato didn't become a legend because of his DG/his other amazing jutsu , he become legend and the most dangerous man in the battlefield is because of his amazing speed that can kill his enemies in a blink of a second. So kabuto must prepare to counter his amazing speed and not on his DG jutsu.

Wouldn't Minato have to think of that first? Not like that's a regular tactic of his nor would be very secretive act. Not to mention it would work both ways, keeping Kabuto hidden from Minato and making an attack that involves targeting a person even harder to use. And Kabuto would still be aware that Minato is standing still there, so what would prevent him from launching his own attack and disrupting Minato's plan. Both the bone forest and inorganic manipulation would enable Kabuto to strike without having to move. Or by employing his genjutsu/White Rage to stop them both in their tracks.

Bone forest and inorganic manipulation? It isn't an issue to jiraiya at all. He can use his swamp to change those bones to a taod flesh. The flesh, minato's kunai, jiraya's hair would attack kabuto at the same time. Jiraiya and minato can run freely on that flesh while kabuto can't.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by M3J

Weird since Hiruzen had to touch Hashirama, Tobirama, and Orochimaru. Of course, none of the three could move, and Kyuubi had limited movement. But Kabuto can use Oral Rebirth or attack Minato and force him to get away to avoid getting hurt. And like Orochimaru, Kabuto can fight to keep his soul and deal some damage to Minato.

Yondaime sealed half of Kyuubi's chakra in a jiffy, and we can all agree 50% Kyuubi chakra is infinitely more huge, powerful and all than Kabuto's

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

The time limit after sealing perhaps, but not to chase a target around. Even if the Shinigami can't be seen, it would be evident given that Minato would have to stand still and preform quite a few handsigns. Kabuto would know something is up by Minato's action, and given that between the fact that Kabuto knows of the Shinigami technique and we saw with Sarutobi one could recognize it by the handsigns, he should have trouble making an educated guess and going from there, what with him having several means to split and divide his body with them knowing.

As many said, masking hand-seals isn't difficult, even if Kabuto knows the handseals ( doubtful, considering Orochimaru probably didn't pay attention to Hiruzen's handseals, seeing as he didn't know the jutsu at that time ).
Hell just make them when doing a shunshin and they are unreadable

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by marshall313

Acting differently? Maybe minato's fighting style rely on his hiraishin and rasengan, but it doesn't mean he dont have any techniques that needs any hand signs. If kabuto is orochimaru's pet, orochimarunmust told him something about minato's caliber. If jiraiya and tsunade knew minato's skills and what kind of ninja he was, then I'm pretty sure oro too. And it's really ridiculous for kabuto to react on minato just because he form a seal for his jutsu.

And minato didn't become a legend because of his DG/his other amazing jutsu , he become legend and the most dangerous man in the battlefield is because of his amazing speed that can kill his enemies in a blink of a second. So kabuto must prepare to counter his amazing speed and not on his DG jutsu.

In every battle we've seen him in, Minato has mainly relied upon the Rasengan and Hiraishin, neither of which require handsigns. That's his standard style. It doesn't mean he can't use anything else, but it does mean that it's gonna stick out when he actually does something with handsigns. And your argument doesn't make sense. If you acknowledge that Kabuto should consider Minato a dangerous threat, then why wouldn't he be on watch for Minato obviously preparing something and act accordingly? It would only make sense if Kabuto didn't consider Minato anything special for him to ignore Minato's action, like Orochimaru ignored Sarutobi's actions because he was so confident in winning. Can't have it both ways. I got no problem assuming that Kabuto would consider Minato enough of a threat not to allow him to enact any sort of plan out of sight.

Kabuto doesn't need a counter to Minato's speed, since not only does his natural sensory allow him to react to instant attacks, but his defenses would make Minato's attacks moot.

Originally Posted by marshall313

Bone forest and inorganic manipulation? It isn't an issue to jiraiya at all. He can use his swamp to change those bones to a taod flesh. The flesh, minato's kunai, jiraya's hair would attack kabuto at the same time. Jiraiya and minato can run freely on that flesh while kabuto can't.

Aside from the idea of Jiraiya using his swamp to change anything being nonsense, Jiraiya can't transform the bones into the toad stomach. Nor would Kabuto be limited by it. That's not how the technique works. It doesn't prevent the target from moving, it's suppose to seal them within the stomach. So without walls and a roof, Kabuto can just as easily escape as they can.

And why would Kabuto give a damn about Jiraiya's hair? A bunch of needles aren't gonna stop a bunch of liquid snakes.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

As many said, masking hand-seals isn't difficult, even if Kabuto knows the handseals ( doubtful, considering Orochimaru probably didn't pay attention to Hiruzen's handseals, seeing as he didn't know the jutsu at that time ).
Hell just make them when doing a shunshin and they are unreadable

It would be difficult in hiding handsigns while keeping track of where Kabuto is, since Kabuto being gone and hidden would make his efforts moot. Wouldn't need to know the specific handsigns, simply acknowledge the use of any handsigns. And he wouldn't be able to make them while in the middle of shunshin, since regular ninjas can't employ two techniques at the same time. Plus, shunshin'ing away would bring up the first issue, since if Kabuto isn't in his line of sight, he can't very well target him for sealing.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

It would be difficult in hiding handsigns while keeping track of where Kabuto is, since Kabuto being gone and hidden would make his efforts moot. Wouldn't need to know the specific handsigns, simply acknowledge the use of any handsigns. And he wouldn't be able to make them while in the middle of shunshin, since regular ninjas can't employ two techniques at the same time. Plus, shunshin'ing away would bring up the first issue, since if Kabuto isn't in his line of sight, he can't very well target him for sealing.

Yondaime has Jiraiya together with him, so sensing him isn't an issue.
Also why is that, considering Shunshin is seal-less? Also we saw Naruto in recent chapters employing shunshin while using his chakrarms, and Third Raikage uses Shunshin together with Hell Fingers.

Lastly, how can Kabuto know Yondaime is using Death God seal if he doesn't know the handseals? Pretty weak if its only because he rarely uses handseals, since, for example, he used them to create the barrier that teleported Kyuubi's Bijuudama.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Yondaime sealed half of Kyuubi's chakra in a jiffy, and we can all agree 50% Kyuubi chakra is infinitely more huge, powerful and all than Kabuto's

Yet he still held Orochimaru despite being able to see. And he wasn't that badly wounded. If you're talking about grabbing Orochimaru's soul, then Orochimaru was able to fight back. Kabuto can either fight back or escape the Death God. Minato was lucky Kushina was holding down the Kyuubi otherwise he'd have to find a way to keep the Kyuubi still.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Yondaime has Jiraiya together with him, so sensing him isn't an issue.
Also why is that, considering Shunshin is seal-less? Also we saw Naruto in recent chapters employing shunshin while using his chakrarms, and Third Raikage uses Shunshin together with Hell Fingers.

Lastly, how can Kabuto know Yondaime is using Death God seal if he doesn't know the handseals? Pretty weak if its only because he rarely uses handseals, since, for example, he used them to create the barrier that teleported Kyuubi's Bijuudama.

Jiraiya doesn't have sensoring ability. The best he could do is put up a detection barrier in the hopes that Kabuto ends up touching it, which he wouldn't need to do with his options. We were told via the Bloodline Limit inform that two ninjutsus couldn't be employed at the same time. Doesn't matter if it's seal-less, through pretty sure that shunshin does require handsigns. The Raikage didn't activate his Hell Fingers with shunshin and Naruto's chakra cloak acts as a different source.

The point is that he doesn't need to know the specific handsigns. Even if Kabuto guesses wrong and Minato uses a different technique, Kabuto loses nothing by dodging/taking precaution. If anything, he would still be able to create an opening for his own attack afterward.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Jiraiya doesn't have sensoring ability. The best he could do is put up a detection barrier in the hopes that Kabuto ends up touching it, which he wouldn't need to do with his options. We were told via the Bloodline Limit inform that two ninjutsus couldn't be employed at the same time. Doesn't matter if it's seal-less, through pretty sure that shunshin does require handsigns. The Raikage didn't activate his Hell Fingers with shunshin and Naruto's chakra cloak acts as a different source.

The point is that he doesn't need to know the specific handsigns. Even if Kabuto guesses wrong and Minato uses a different technique, Kabuto loses nothing by dodging/taking precaution. If anything, he would still be able to create an opening for his own attack afterward.

He has Ma and Pa ( unless OP nerfed even more Jiraiya and Yondaime ), and they are sensors, either by Nature energy or that... Tongue thingy.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Smelling out someone is not actual sensory, at least in this regard. For example, how would they tell which of a bunch of snakes is Kabuto, or in which giant bone he's moving through, or that the Kabuto in front of them is just a hollow decoy? Simply smelling his scent isn't gonna clue them in to where he's actually at when his scent would either still be there or buried under something.

Not even sure that is an example of shunshin, but what suggests that Minato didn't summon Gamabunta after he had finished shunshin?

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

One would expect, if Jiraiya had the same sort of sensory abilities as Naruto and Kabuto, then he would have been aware of the last three Paths and avoid a sneak attack. He never really displayed any sensory skills during that battle, not like the other two. Both Naruto and Kabuto have mastered Sage Mode, so perhaps that's why they can do it and he can't.

Are we sure sensing a presence is the same, because we've seen others sense a person's presences without actually being sensors.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

One would expect, if Jiraiya had the same sort of sensory abilities as Naruto and Kabuto, then he would have been aware of the last three Paths and avoid a sneak attack. He never really displayed any sensory skills during that battle, not like the other two. Both Naruto and Kabuto have mastered Sage Mode, so perhaps that's why they can do it and he can't.

Are we sure sensing a presence is the same, because we've seen others sense a person's presences without actually being sensors.

Like Naruto was aware of the Pein that was just resurected? When the plot needs people to don't sense then they don't sense.
How about Naruto detecting the ENTIRE BATTLEFIELD with people and enemies he NEVER got to see again by just exiting the cave but he could not sense Nagato and Konan that where just outside Konoha and he had to stab himself... Seriously?

Also Naruto showed those senses in his fight with Pein only when traking him down. Aside from that... Not that much...
Then yes Naruto did say he can feel the entire Konoha now that he has senjutsu chakra in him and made it look like that is a normal ability shared by all. Even Ma/Pa should have it.. Hell Ma senses Pein when they got there in all that dust. Then of coruse not even Ma/Pa could sense the 3 sneaking Pein...

Well what else could it be? Are you telling me the elder frogs themselfs don't have special senses?
Seriously they never showed it as they did not really need to show it. Aside from detecting where Nagato is Naruto did NOT display any SM senses in his fight with Pein... If not for that we would asume (just like with JMan) that he does not have it (aside from looking for Kakashi something that JMan would obviously have no need to do in his fight with Pein)....

Senjutsu chakra works by activating your body, all of it, senses including.

Read what Naruto states here:http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/431/3
Now that he has naure energy... Do you see him stating how he is the only one who can do that? That Ma, Pa, JMan could not do it or how he was a special case? I men ANYTHING?

No he just trows that line like its a NORMAL ability for all after they got senjutsu chakra.

Later with Kabuto when dodging that arrow he AGAIN states it generaly like its nature working with him...

I can understand JMan perhaps not having it on the same level but not having it like at all? Now that is absurd. If Naruto showes the ability to kill Pein with a Rasengan then JMan can do the same. Its just about same thing with SM.

Smelling out someone is not actual sensory, at least in this regard. For example, how would they tell which of a bunch of snakes is Kabuto, or in which giant bone he's moving through, or that the Kabuto in front of them is just a hollow decoy? Simply smelling his scent isn't gonna clue them in to where he's actually at when his scent would either still be there or buried under something.

Not even sure that is an example of shunshin, but what suggests that Minato didn't summon Gamabunta after he had finished shunshin?

Ma has that... Slimy thing she used to sense the chameleon, Jiraiya has the barrier that detected every movement.

Considering how fast Kyuubi can form a Bijuudama and that Yondaime traveled an entire village worth of distance in some seconds, I believe its a shunshin. Also considering how hard-pressed he was on time, with Hiruzen having a Bijuudama on his face

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by M3J

Yet he still held Orochimaru despite being able to see. And he wasn't that badly wounded. If you're talking about grabbing Orochimaru's soul, then Orochimaru was able to fight back. Kabuto can either fight back or escape the Death God. Minato was lucky Kushina was holding down the Kyuubi otherwise he'd have to find a way to keep the Kyuubi still.

Kyuubi probably didn't even bother fighting back or couldn't.

Sandaime used Kage Bunshins, so, he divided his remaining chakra into three and summoned the Death God in that state. I don't think Orochimaru would be able to fight back had Sandaime only used the seal on him and not two other previous Kages, too.

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

@Uchiha_Blood

Why did Naruto not sensed the realm that just poped right next to him? Plot? Why did Naruto not sense Konan and Nagato just outside Konoha when he can sense people accross huge distances on the entire battlefield and enemies and allies he NEVER even got to see before (even identify them)? Plot? The best explanation is that the chameleon has the ability to mask chakra, something like Muu.

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

Sandaime used Kage Bunshins, so, he divided his remaining chakra into three and summoned the Death God in that state. I don't think Orochimaru would be able to fight back had Sandaime only used the seal on him and not two other previous Kages, too.

Yes it was explained, he was at his limit, no chakra and what not. If Minato can pull half the Kyuubi just about instantly...

Re: Kabuto vs Jiraiya and Minato

Originally Posted by xXan

@Uchiha_Blood

Why did Naruto not sensed the realm that just poped right next to him? Plot? Why did Naruto not sense Konan and Nagato just outside Konoha when he can sense people accross huge distances on the entire battlefield and enemies and allies he NEVER even got to see before (even identify them)? Plot? The best explanation is that the chameleon has the ability to mask chakra, something like Muu.

As usual, when there is something you can't explain is plot
There is no evidence Naruto didn't sense Konan or Pein in Konoha, he simply didn't know their chakra signatures, or couldn't pinpoint their exact location since Nagato was sending chakra to the bodies, and thus his chakra was all over the place ( and never it was showed Naruto pinpointing everyone's position in the war ). As I recall, Naruto had no problems sensing Hinata being still alive.
As for the "Realm that just poped right next to him" ( I assume you are talking about Preta Path ) he had no time, as Asura Path revived him and the guy shunshined/ran to absorb FRS.
It can be explained by Naruto being unable ( as every other character ) to do 937937 things at the same time, expecially without knowing that Asura Path could revive the other bodies.