I'm sure it's not, but it's a war of attrition isn't it? If 10 badgers pass your cows or crap on your land or drink out of your trough and 3 or 4 of them are TB free, that has to be better than nothing? It's not an answer but it's a tool. It may mean a few farmers going clear at the next test?

What is the agenda here? Do farmers just want a cull and that's that? Or do they want a solution which works? Those two are not exclusive. A cull may work on it's own. It may not. None of us know yet. Maybe a cull would work. But does anyone care about alternative or supporting actions? Or is there a fear that if farmers back vaccination as part of a greater picture, that culling may be sidelined or devalued in some way?

28-10-14, 10:24 PM

topground

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasty

I'm sure it's not, but it's a war of attrition isn't it? If 10 badgers pass your cows or crap on your land or drink out of your trough and 3 or 4 of them are TB free, that has to be better than nothing? It's not an answer but it's a tool. It may mean a few farmers going clear at the next test?

What is the agenda here? Do farmers just want a cull and that's that? Or do they want a solution which works? Those two are not exclusive. A cull may work on it's own. It may not. None of us know yet. Maybe a cull would work. But does anyone care about alternative or supporting actions? Or is there a fear that if farmers back vaccination as part of a greater picture, that culling may be sidelined or devalued in some way?

If BCG was effective how come 1 million humans die of TB globally every year? So it is unlikely to work in Badgers.
Unfortunately the four TB badgers will soon be infected by the other six because they share damp poorly ventilated accommodation. Only when they are all clear of TB should they be left alone.
The pasture contaminated by the ten will be infected until all ten are clear of Tb so no gain.
When the public realise the risk to their health in the long term of maintaining a Grade 3 pathogen (Ebola is Grade 4) in wildlife that can easily be picked up by companion animals and then infect them and their kids there will be universal uproar. Hopefully the current crop of politicians will still be around to suffer the disgrace that their pandering to the likes of May and Oddie will bring.

You misunderstand how BCG works - if it works at all. It doesn't prevent zTB, but lesions may be less spread and limited to pulmonary areas. (Lungs) Or at least that was what was found when badgers who had received BCG in one of the many trials were postmortemed to see the effect. As far as spill over to cattle, and other mammals are concerned, what was crucual is that all the animals had lesions and all were shedding bacteria. The combination of BCG / TB gave one candidate (D313) such a whack that he had TB in very visible organ, and was euthanased early.

As little as 1 cfu (colony forming unit) of m.bovis bacteria is enough to infect a calf.

And the sensitivity of any vaccination is crucial to its success, particularly to cattle when combined with an equally wobbly DIVA test. Consider the scenario - and you don't need a science degree to do that - in fact it's probably an advantage not to have one:

You misunderstand how BCG works - if it works at all. It doesn't prevent zTB, but lesions may be less spread and limited to pulmonary areas. (Lungs) Or at least that was what was found when badgers who had received BCG in one of the many trials were postmortemed to see the effect. As far as spill over to cattle, and other mammals are concerned, what was crucual is that all the animals had lesions and all were shedding bacteria. The combination of BCG / TB gave one candidate (D313) such a whack that he had TB in very visible organ, and was euthanased early.

As little as 1 cfu (colony forming unit) of m.bovis bacteria is enough to infect a calf.

And the sensitivity of any vaccination is crucial to its success, particularly to cattle when combined with an equally wobbly DIVA test. Consider the scenario - and you don't need a science degree to do that - in fact it's probably an advantage not to have one:

So, is it fair to say that, as far as we know, that a vaccinated badger can still carry the disease but may not be badly affected by it? Or have I miss-understood? Take a totally clean badger. Vaccinate him and put him in a set with badgers with TB. What is his future? Will he still get the disease and carry it but probably not die from it? Or will he never get TB at all?

29-10-14, 09:49 PM

Exfarmer

Re: TB.....Again.

A vaccinated badger, if it has the same odds of the vaccination succeeding as a human , and there is no trials to show such.
This badger if the odds are the same will in most likelihood contract TB and pass the disease on to others.
however in the lesser likelihood that the vaccine works the badger will remain clear of the disease until the vaccine wears off, if it does, nobody knows for sure.
. On the other hand, if the badger is already infected, with TB before vaccination the chances are, the disease will be less, but it may mean that it will live longer passing the disease on.

This as I undersand it is the case, however Mathew may correct me.

29-10-14, 09:51 PM

matthew

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasty

So, is it fair to say that, as far as we know, that a vaccinated badger can still carry the disease but may not be badly affected by it? Or have I miss-understood?

If you've misunderstood, then so have i and our team of 'ologists.
After BCG, that's exactly what the post mortemed badgers showed. They all had lesions, all were shedding, but lesions were limited at the time of death (12 weeks after measured exposure) to lungs. Except poor old D313, who had TB in all organs. Thus he was a super excreter. Now being mischievous, does that mean 11 per cent of previously clean badgers can be transformed into the type of WMD by BCG + exposure to m.bovis?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasty

Take a totally clean badger. Vaccinate him and put him in a set with badgers with TB. What is his future? Will he still get the disease and carry it but probably not die from it? Or will he never get TB at all?

From that trial (Lesellier et al) he will get TB, but after 12 weeks not so badly and mainly in his lungs. After 12 weeks, who knows. The very nature of the disease is that there periods of latency as lesions wall up, only to break down in old age or with other environmental stresses.
Can you get a little bit pregnant? :cool:

Knowing how small the infective dose is for my cattle, even tiny amounts of shedding are too much for me. And don't forget their test failure - old D313. A healthy badger turned into a super excreter with a jab of BCG .... and m.bovis.

29-10-14, 09:58 PM

matthew

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exfarmer

A vaccinated badger, if it has the same odds of the vaccination succeeding as a human , and there is no trials to show such.
This badger if the odds are the same will in most likelihood contract TB and pass the disease on to others.
however in the lesser likelihood that the vaccine works the badger will remain clear of the disease until the vaccine wears off, if it does, nobody knows for sure.
. On the other hand, if the badger is already infected, with TB before vaccination the chances are, the disease will be less, but it may mean that it will live longer passing the disease on.

This as I understand it is the case, however Mathew may correct me.

Defra say that vaccinating badgers in endemic areas is likely to prolong the epidemic other mammals are experiencing, by extending the life of badgers which are shedding, but not dying quickly enough. This is because BCG does not prevent TB.

Vaccinating a badger which already has TB sounds a likely cause of death, with super excreter status preceeding that, due to cage stress.

When I went to school, disease + vaccination = death, as you are doubling up the challenge to an already compromised immune system. And we would not have ignored adverse reactions. Obviously Fera's lot went to a different school. :cool:

30-10-14, 12:37 AM

Pasty

Re: TB.....Again.

Thanks, get all that. So is it worth a vaccination program in areas where there is no TB in badgers?

30-10-14, 09:42 AM

matthew

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasty

Thanks, get all that. So is it worth a vaccination program in areas where there is no TB in badgers?

In theory, yes. But because it gives BCG for trapped and indiscriminately jabbed wild badgers credence and thus implies success, no.

30-10-14, 09:05 PM

Jim Webster

Re: TB.....Again.

And BCG isn't a particularly wonderful vaccine. The majority of countries don't use it because they feel it merely masks TB rather than preventing it. So, for example, everyone sent to prison in the USA gets a TB test (or did).
If you're a Brit and have been vaccinated, you have to tell them or they'll treat you for TB

There have been various trials done, effectiveness ranges between 0% of vaccinated people protected and 90%, with 70% (ish) being what's hoped for.
I think it's New Zealand where they only vaccinate very young children because BCG doesn't take as well in older people. (This is from memory so I might have the wrong place)

Jim

30-10-14, 09:27 PM

Andrew100

Re: TB.....Again.

I'm told by a scientific advisor to DEFRA that the badger vaccination program in hotspot areas cannot work because of the frequent and prolonged contact with soil. A similar reason is found in humans in the poorest areas of Africa. He was to busy to explain why. Does anyone know the reason, something to do with bacteria?

it is part of the reason why there would need to be yearly booster jabs.

30-10-14, 11:27 PM

Joyce

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Webster

I think it's New Zealand where they only vaccinate very young children because BCG doesn't take as well in older people. (This is from memory so I might have the wrong place)

Jim

8 years ago they were certainly vaccinating young babies in London because my grandsons were jabbed with BCG.

I'm told by a scientific advisor to DEFRA that the badger vaccination program in hotspot areas cannot work because of the frequent and prolonged contact with soil. A similar reason is found in humans in the poorest areas of Africa. He was to busy to explain why. Does anyone know the reason, something to do with bacteria?

it is part of the reason why there would need to be yearly booster jabs.

That could be the ability of the bacteria to survive various environments.

While UV light zaps it fairly quickly (hours), in the shade of a hedge, or out of sunlight it can survive much longer (weeks). Dried or partially dried it's life span is indefinite and its effect on mammals intensified. It likes water and is acid fast. But in the darkness and relative humidity of say a badger sett, it can survive for up to 2 years.

31-10-14, 11:24 PM

Phil

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasty

Thanks, get all that. So is it worth a vaccination program in areas where there is no TB in badgers?

Well put it this way Pasty - that would have been a much better starting point than choosing an area that is slap bang in the middle of a TB hotspot - as was the case here !!!

But then I don't honestly believe that The National Trusts 4 year trial Vaccination Program on the Killerton Estate was ever about reducing TB ?
It was more about making sure they had an excuse not to take part in any Culls ! Vaccinating Badgers, as apposed to killing them, is obviously going to sit a hell of a lot better with their members & benefactors.

These Vaccination programs are also keeping people like FERA very busy...not to mention very well paid !

After 4 years of vaccinating Badgers on the Killerton Estate it is not at all clear as to what benefit, if any, this has had on either the Wildlife or the tenant farmers & their business's !
Against my better judgement I allowed this farm to be part of their vaccination trial...I have not received any detailed literature since the very brief "up-date letter" I received, dated 14th August 2013, that stated they had now trapped & vaccinated a total of 104 Badgers in 2012 & 202 Badgers in 2013.
No figures for how many they trapped & vaccinated this spring/summer (2014)
No details of what the Actual Badger population is on the 6,500 acres ?
No details of what the TB status of the 17 Farms on the estate was at the beginning of the program ?
And no details of what the current TB status of the 17 farms are now ?

Listening to what other tenants are saying, along with our own TB test results over the last 4 years, it does not appear that there has been any reduction in the number of tests where farms have had IR's or Reactors ! And I am pretty sure that, in the last 18 months, farms that had previously had two clear tests have since gone down with TB yet again !

I am not holding my breath in the hope of getting full transparency & details of this vaccination trial, but I do live in hope that, one day, people will accept reality & get on & do what is needed to get rid of this wretched disease !

01-11-14, 09:09 PM

midtown

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurdlebunter

YE GODS !!, who are these people, how do they survive ?....truly depressing, and the sodding Internet has given them a voice. :(

Well it now appears the Guardian doesn't allow free speech, unless of course you're a bunny-tree-badger hugger going under the name of SteB1, who can slag off to his hearts content with impunity.

Yes, as of today I'm banned!:(

03-11-14, 12:31 AM

Pasty

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew

In theory, yes. But because it gives BCG for trapped and indiscriminately jabbed wild badgers credence and thus implies success, no.

Isn't that a point I made earlier though? Are farmers afraid that amongst the noise, good solutions should be done away with? If it has any value as a preventative, surely we should be backing it in not spots? We can't be worried about what the nutters think about it, they'll make it up anyway. We are looking for a solution at the end of the day which stops beef farmers coming down with TB. It may be culling, vaccination, more movement control, more testing or whatever.

As soon as we start fearing that the right course of action may be 'used' by the cull objectors then we bite our own noses off. Don't we?

03-11-14, 08:47 AM

FarmerP

Re: TB.....Again.

Headline from this weeks Irish Sunday Times-

“Badger culling a decade ago still reducing risk of bovine TB”

Article by Maria Delaney ,
Study by Dr Andrew Byrne , University College Dublin, to be published in Veterinary Research

Isn't that a point I made earlier though? Are farmers afraid that amongst the noise, good solutions should be done away with? If it has any value as a preventative, surely we should be backing it in not spots? We can't be worried about what the nutters think about it, they'll make it up anyway. We are looking for a solution at the end of the day which stops beef farmers coming down with TB. It may be culling, vaccination, more movement control, more testing or whatever.

As soon as we start fearing that the right course of action may be 'used' by the cull objectors then we bite our own noses off. Don't we?

I will assume you mean Hot spots ?

As a number of us have already pointed out - Over 50% of wild Badgers in these Hot spot area's are already infected with the Disease ! The efficacy of the BCG vaccine, in Wild Badgers, is only just over 50% ! You will not successfully trap & Vaccinated every Wild Badger in a given area...and you certainly won't trap and vaccinated every Wild Badger in that given area 3 or 4 years in succession, which is what you have to do to achieve any worthwhile reduction of TB in the Wild Badgers !

I really can't understand why people can't (won't) accept the fact that vaccinating Wild Animals in Area's where the Disease is endemic and totally out of control is a complete & utter waste of time & Money ? Unless, of course, they have a particular agenda or a vested interest ?

Let me ask you a question Pasty - What would you do If your vet charged you over £2,000.00 to vaccinate an Animal on your Farm that had already contracted an incurable disease ?

03-11-14, 03:59 PM

Pasty

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I will assume you mean Hot spots ?

As a number of us have already pointed out - Over 50% of wild Badgers in these Hot spot area's are already infected with the Disease ! The efficacy of the BCG vaccine, in Wild Badgers, is only just over 50% ! You will not successfully trap & Vaccinated every Wild Badger in a given area...and you certainly won't trap and vaccinated every Wild Badger in that given area 3 or 4 years in succession, which is what you have to do to achieve any worthwhile reduction of TB in the Wild Badgers !

I really can't understand why people can't (won't) accept the fact that vaccinating Wild Animals in Area's where the Disease is endemic and totally out of control is a complete & utter waste of time & Money ? Unless, of course, they have a particular agenda or a vested interest ?

Let me ask you a question Pasty - What would you do If your vet charged you over £2,000.00 to vaccinate an Animal on your Farm that had already contracted an incurable disease ?

No, I meant Not Spots. It's clear that there is no (or little) point in vaccinating where disease is endemic. But if the disease is spreading then vaccinating at the edge and beyond is surely a good thing? Lets not forget that a lot of human problems, including TB have been almost wiped out by systematic vaccination combined with treatment where required.

03-11-14, 04:46 PM

FarmerP

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasty

Lets not forget that a lot of human problems, including TB have been almost wiped out by systematic vaccination combined with treatment where required.

??????

“Tuberculosis (TB) remains one of the world’s deadliest
communicable diseases. In 2013, an estimated 9.0 million
people developed TB and 1.5 million died from the disease,”

I understand that BCG is the worlds most used vaccine, but TB remains the second biggest killer of infectious diseases.

That said ,I’m still inclined to think it must be worth a try to vaccinate badgers at the true Edge of bTB, it just might work , though I can find no evidence to show it defiantly will work. Also at least we will have tried that option and if it fails be in a stronger position to call for a badger cull if these areas become Hot spots . Vaccination in Hot spots will not work leaving a Badger Cull as the only sensible option , if we are ever to control TB. ( in my opinion)
Sure we also need good cattle controls which are a vital part of TB control , but they will not work on their own, where the badgers are infected.

03-11-14, 05:32 PM

tom

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew

When I went to school, disease + vaccination = death ...

... if that is right then is vaccinating diseased badgers really such a bad thing? ;)

I thought the Badger Vaccination Deployment trial had shown no adverse reaction to vaccination but most important statistic is where badgers are vaccinated (for example in Pembrokeshire) how much does zTB in cattle go down, will we ever be told?

It would also be interesting to know the cattle TB statistics for pilot cull areas, will we ever be told those either? :undecided:

03-11-14, 05:33 PM

Pasty

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FarmerP

??????

“Tuberculosis (TB) remains one of the world’s deadliest
communicable diseases. In 2013, an estimated 9.0 million
people developed TB and 1.5 million died from the disease,”

I understand that BCG is the worlds most used vaccine, but TB remains the second biggest killer of infectious diseases.

That said ,I’m still inclined to think it must be worth a try to vaccinate badgers at the true Edge of bTB, it just might work , though I can find no evidence to show it defiantly will work. Also at least we will have tried that option and if it fails be in a stronger position to call for a badger cull if these areas become Hot spots . Vaccination in Hot spots will not work leaving a Badger Cull as the only sensible option , if we are ever to control TB. ( in my opinion)
Sure we also need good cattle controls which are a vital part of TB control , but they will not work on their own, where the badgers are infected.

And all those folk got a BCG at a young age? Come on. How many people die in the western world from TB? For the last time, I am not bloody advocating vaccination in hot spots as a total solution and maybe not even worthwhile. Jesus.

03-11-14, 05:36 PM

Pasty

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom

... if that is right then is vaccinating diseased badgers really such a bad thing? ;)

I thought the Badger Vaccination Deployment trial had shown no adverse reaction to vaccination but most important statistic is where badgers are vaccinated (for example in Pembrokeshire) how much does zTB in cattle go down, will we ever be told?

It would also be interesting to know the cattle TB statistics for pilot cull areas, will we ever be told those either? :undecided:

I suspect a controlled cull combined with an extensive vaccination program is the best answer but there are too many nutters on both sides to make it possible. One side wants no cull, the other no vaccination. Lets all stick our heads up our arses and explode into space.

03-11-14, 06:59 PM

Phil

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasty

I suspect a controlled cull combined with an extensive vaccination program is the best answer but there are too many nutters on both sides to make it possible. One side wants no cull, the other no vaccination. Lets all stick our heads up our arses and explode into space.

Right words....but the wrong way round !

The disease in Wildlife has been left unchecked for so Long the only viable option is an extensive cull with a well targeted & administered vaccination program in Areas where the Badgers are not already riddled with the Disease.
I am confident that this two pronged attack can work & will work.

The fact that The National Trust, one of the biggest Landowners in the country, chose to trial a vaccination program in the middle of a Hot spot area is almost unforgivable when they had plenty of opportunity to carry out this trial in an area where it would have at least stood a chance of working !

03-11-14, 07:07 PM

matthew

Re: TB.....Again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom

... if that is right then is vaccinating diseased badgers really such a bad thing? ;)

I thought the Badger Vaccination Deployment trial had shown no adverse reaction to vaccination but most important statistic is where badgers are vaccinated (for example in Pembrokeshire) how much does zTB in cattle go down, will we ever be told?

It would also be interesting to know the cattle TB statistics for pilot cull areas, will we ever be told those either? :undecided:

The Badger Vax trial screened the 844 badgers they trapped before vaccinating. They were only able to use 262. The infection rate of those badgers was 43 per cent, which was said to be 'typical of badgers in endemic areas'.

We won't be told the results of any vaccination areas. Defra say that would be inappropriate as the object of vaccinating badgers is to get farmers to accept the concept of vaccination. :rolleyes:

Killerton is one of the first estates to vaccinate its badgers and the results for farmers has not been that encouraging.

Well, by controlled, I don't mean that it can't be extensive. Just backed up by some good research and historical data, which will build in time. Culling is highly controversial and it's not good enough to brand anyone unsure or not in favour as tree hugging guardian readers. It needs to be explained and justified in detail and if folk don't want to listen then there's not a lot you can do. Maybe people will just disagree, it's their right. Doesn't mean they should be hated. That's bad form and no good comes from it. A lot of people are listening though and we don't hear from them. So, making a solid case is important.