In Baldur's gate 2 you weren't told like in DA. Granted the game came with a map, but you didn't see places on the game map until you got close, and boy, once you got a new town or somewhere you had dozens of unrelated side quests. In DA all your quests were connected in a linear fashion, like persuade the blacksmith to make better armour, then the barrels to make a fire wall, and so on, all with a view to the one thing: The upcoming battle.

In BG1 and 2 you were told about a temple to the south southwest with an evil wizard, but you didn;t know where it was precisely, or what you may find on the way, or how strong the wizard was. And this was maybe one rumour you heard of a dozen or more that were added to your journal.

Some people just make such ignorant statements I find it unbelievable.

Originally Posted by UK_John
Well, think of the Gold Box RPG's from the 80's,
think of the Elder Scrolls RPG's from the 90's and 00's,
think of the Ultima series from the 80's and 90's,
think of the Wizardry series from the 90's and 00's,
think of the Might and Magic series from the 90's and 00's,
think of the Fallout series from the 90's and the 00's,
think of the Gothic series from the 00's,
yes, and think of the Baldur's Gate series
and the Neverwinter Nights series
and the Icewind Dale series.

Think of all the classic cRPG's of the last 30 years and you'll find non linear exploration, that got you the side quests, that got you the loot, that got you the better armour. that helped you level up. that progressed you in the story!

So yes, the first so-called cRPG for PC that did not have non linear exploration.

…. Oh, and by the way, I still own and play most of these games, so it's not guess work!

The Gold box games were mixed, some were fairly linear, like Secret of the Silver Blades, while others were open, like Treasures of the Savage Frontier. Wizardry was strictly linear until 7; and before 6 there was literally nothing but a single dungeon. Most "Wizardry-likes" (eg Bard's Tale) were similar, with limited to no variation in where you could go.

Many Rogue-likes have very linear exploration as well; being a single dungeon with one entrance and exit per level.

In fact, many of these older games did not have quests in the modern sense of the word; you had the main story you followed, and if you were lucky one, maybe two endings. There was no one giving you additional things to do. I'm not sure when that started, but it was probably an Ultima.

Even the games that did offer a semblance of open world exploration, you had to complete the quest events in a certain order, or it wasn't getting done.

And yes, I own and play these same games. I just started a run in Phantasie, even though EGA hurts my eyes (and did even when all I had was EGA games or C64 games; I always chose the C64). The only ones missing off my drive are the Gothics, which I haven't gotten around to installing on my newish computer, the Fallouts, which I can't find my copy, and Neverwinter Nights, which I oddly never picked up.

So no, Dragon Age is not even remotely the first CRPG without an open, sandbox style of exploration. Heck, as pointed out, the traveling from area to area is pretty similar to Baldur's Gate 2; you were told about an area, and it appeared on your map.

Whats more, is the last Elderscrolls game WAS very open world… TOO open world in fact, as it was a huge expanse of nothingness broken up by the odd deer or bandit. I just wonder how the bandits survived, with nothing to do but throw the bones and hunt the all-too scarce game. It also retained a very detailed and open character creation and development system. So the comment that crpgs are not coming from Bethseda is patently false. They make games with every bit and more of what the older titles offered, except actual content per game world area, which they are sorely lacking in.

Originally Posted by UK_John
Some people just make such ignorant statements I find it unbelievable.

+1, heh.

Anyway, boosting up the exploration aspect surely wouldn´t hurt DA2.
Given the narration heavy approach to their games, I think that Bioware are conceptually quite on the right track with both Mass Effects and something akin to planetary exploration in these, in a more fleshed out state, would be nice have in DA2. Dev time is probably too short for this though.

pibbur

Originally Posted by UK_John
In Baldur's gate 2 you weren't told like in DA. Granted the game came with a map, but you didn't see places on the game map until you got close, and boy, once you got a new town or somewhere you had dozens of unrelated side quests. In DA all your quests were connected in a linear fashion, like persuade the blacksmith to make better armour, then the barrels to make a fire wall, and so on, all with a view to the one thing: The upcoming battle.

In BG1 and 2 you were told about a temple to the south southwest with an evil wizard, but you didn;t know where it was precisely, or what you may find on the way, or how strong the wizard was. And this was maybe one rumour you heard of a dozen or more that were added to your journal.

Some people just make such ignorant statements I find it unbelievable.

I know I'm feeding the troll here, but I have to point out that this is simply incorrect. In BG1 it works the way you describe. In BG2, however, it works exactly like in Dragon Age - you never "explore" the map, you walk in small zones untill someone shows you a new location on the map, making that location available. It also works that way in NWN2 (except in Storm of Zehir, the add-on).

I liked how DA brought back some tactical party combat to the genre. Only NWN2 and Drakensang have really done that in the last few years, and I found both lacking (NWN2 due to a horrid engine, Drakensang due to characters forgetting orders).

Originally Posted by Maylander
I know I'm feeding the troll here, but I have to point out that this is simply incorrect. In BG1 it works the way you describe. In BG2, however, it works exactly like in Dragon Age - you never "explore" the map, you walk in small zones untill someone shows you a new location on the map, making that location available. It also works that way in NWN2 (except in Storm of Zehir, the add-on).

Many indoor/underground BG2 maps had obstacles forcing you along a certain path too… The two dungeons with dragons in them spring to mind. BG2 did a very good job of hiding linearity by swamping you with a huge pile of sidequests, but underneath that it was fairly linear. Not that the linear core hurts much if you can maintain an illusion of an open world…

The completely linear Icewind Dales worked like that too (minus the swamping)

Originally Posted by DeepO
Anyway, boosting up the exploration aspect surely wouldn´t hurt DA2.
Given the narration heavy approach to their games, I think that Bioware are conceptually quite on the right track with both Mass Effects and something akin to planetary exploration in these, in a more fleshed out state, would be nice have in DA2. Dev time is probably too short for this though.

While it would be sweet to combine their strengths with a completely open world, I'm not sure exploration would work all that well with Bioware's strengths, or that they even would know how to do it well.

I'm pretty much resigned to accepting that different devs have different strengths. If I want a hand-crafted world with interesting exploration I play a PB game, if I want a large sandbox I go for a Bethesda title (FO3 redeemed them to some extent), and if I want NPC banter, coherent story and cinematic presentation I turn to Bioware.