How to actually know!

This is a discussion on How to actually know! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In the thread on whether to render any first aid to a BG you had had to shoot - came up the possibility of an ...

How to actually know!

In the thread on whether to render any first aid to a BG you had had to shoot - came up the possibility of an injured BG playing ''possum''

Got me to thinking - this is very possible. And so - even if the guy is down, we cannot consider the threat dealt with, in particular if he has still got access to his shooter.

I wonder how we can tell, for sure. Unlikely of course I will have to find out as heavens willing, I go my grave not having fired in anger.

What would you folks do to decide if enough was enough? You may have fired a lotta shots but no way to know how many ''connected''. Added to which the ''coup de grace'' approach ain't gonna win any prizes in a court of law!

My $.02 is this - if I had to shoot someone, it would be as an absolute last resort in avoiding grievious injury or death to myself or a family member. I too hope that it is something that I am never forced to do.
However, under such circumstances, I believe it would be an act bordering on suicide to render aid to someone so dangerous that I had to shoot him in the first place.
Violent criminals aren't necessarily known for their outpouring of heartfelt gratitude. I believe that any action, other than keeping him covered (from a safe distance) while waiting for the ambulance and police would be an invitation for disaster. (Yes, I would call an ambulance for the guy)
In short, how do you know? Who cares? I'm not gonna give such a person a second opportunity to kill me. Under such hypothetical circumstances, it was the BG that created the entire situation to begin with, and he must therefore accept the consequences associated with being a criminal.
As far as the "when do you quit shooting ?" question goes, the guy that trained me put it pretty simply," Shoot until the threat is neutralized". If that's a single round, great. If it requires multiple mag changes, then that's what it takes.

In the military you are taught certain tactics for approaching dead/ unconcious/ possum enemy combattants... including ways to defeat booby-trapped bodies, etc.

Usually you have a buddy helping out on this, but if you're not worried about booby-traps and you're shorthanded (can't get my wife to CCW, so I'll be short handed) there are techniques for doing it.

I'm not a certified CQB instructor, and I don't feel like a long post at this hour, so I won't go into details... but even for those who have no plans to render aid to their opponent you still have to consider being able to apporach safely close enough to remove a weapon from your opponent's area of control.

As for "when is the threat neutralized"... unknown, that's the whole point of the search team tactics, but a good point to stop shooting is when your opponent hits the ground AND his weapon arm relaxes.

I don't know about rendering help but How do I know if the guy is playing possum? I don't know that either. If he is on the ground and the hands and weapon are visible, I might approach him to secure the his weapon while mine is trained on his nogging. If I can't see weapon or hands, I won't leave cover for anything. At the most I'll be calling 911.

you still have to consider being able to approach safely close enough to remove a weapon from your opponent's area of control.

That tank is probably my greatest concern, and how to achieve.

Tho as Miggy mentions - our own piece (at a safe outa reach distance) can keep him covered. Just that doubt tho as we close to ''grabbing'' distance. Heck if I was shot but still compos mentis, I'd sure be trying some ploy but then a BG will probably use ''Coup de Grace'' without a second thought.

As has been said if I had any doubts about whether he was really down, or just playing possum, I'd probably go with the "cover him from a safe distance and wait for the cavalry" approach. If there was good cover available (car, corner of building, etc.) I'd use it. If not, I'd try to postition myself so that I was in a position where it would make it difficult for him to bring his weapon bear. For example, if the attacker was lying face-down, I'd probably want to be behind him (in the direction his feet were pointed) so that to engage me, he'd have to turn all the way around.

If I was approaching him for whatever reason, I'd want to do it from his off side. If his gun was in or near his right hand, I'd approach him from the left so that, once again, it'd take him a little longer to swing the gun to cover me.

Overall though, I'd definately prefer to just stand off and wait, or leave the area completely.

Weapon Removal

As a private citizen you're probably much better off just to cover the guy & get on the ol' cell phone.
Let the police do the weapon removal if possible.
I say this because if you attempt a weapon removal & the guy is still alive & he even makes a feeble grab for his weapon...then you're going to need to plug him again and probably in the head while he's still on the ground & that is like forensic suicide for you in the court room.

Chris,
Your post reminded me of something Clint Smith said. He said that inmates are teaching inmates to fall if the police shoot at them. It doesn't matter whether they are hit or not. Then when the officer holsters and approaches to cuff, the BG rolls over and shoots him. I had forgotten all about that until you brought up playin' possum.

2 things: 1) "Rendering aid". Never do it. If he dies, family may try to get the DA to come after you for murder/malicious harm/manslaughter. If he doesn't die, but suffers disability, he may try for mental anguish/incurred loss/suffering/etc.. Actually, there is no "may", it will happen. Not flaming, but clue in here- lots of paramedics and EMTs are sued each year, and generally, they haven't intentionally induced the injury.

2) When the BG goes down: as far as I'm concerned, if I saw any upper body twitching, that would be evidence of continued agressive action, and reason for more rounds on target.

Obviously lots of situational things to evaluate, but this still gets back to the cop-shooting an on-scene responding friend told me about. An officer's partner was shot/down, the officer emptied his 5906 at the BG, reloaded, and emptied again. Something like 12 for 26 hits. When asked by the DA why he reloaded and continued shooting, the officer responded, "He was still moving. He was still a threat. We are trained to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat."

If I(me) feel that the BG is still a threat to me I will shoot. That is my "line in the sand" that the BG will either step accross or not. If I have adaquate cover and he is doin' the "kickin' chicken" in the middle of the parking lot and his weapon is lying beside him,I will not shoot. If he grabs for the weapon I will not shoot. If he points the weapon at me I will shoot him at least twice more. If he attempts to harm (shoot) another individual I will shoot him at least twice. If I do not have adaquate cover then things will change. Now I (without cover) will feel threatened again if he makes a move,any move,for his weapon and I truly feel that he is not injured enough to bring it to bare on me or another individual. All this will also change if he has(or I even feel strongly that he has) a buddy lurking about.----- These decissions will have to be made very quickly,in the heavy rain,and/or at night. Maybe even total darkness. Can we really train for every condition that might come our way? I'll tell ya one thing. My buddy and I train in all different conditions. We purposely go out to the club when it is raining. When it is very,very,hot we intentionally will shoot our drills in the scorching Fla. sun(sweat factor). My Kimber has been pulled completely apart quite a few times now to dry it out. I have even dunked it into a bucket of water,pulled it out fairly quickly and shot it. All this to be as ready/trained as myself and my CCW could be. It is an extreme confidence builder. In youself, and your weapons abilities.Try it,you'll see.--------

Chris ~ Just Wondering

In Pennsylvania if you have a first obligation to retreat & (if at all possible) avoid a deadly threat...but, if you DO get involved in an unavoidable confrontation/shooting...and shoot the BG in Self Defense...He Goes DOWN....so that NOW he seems NOT to be an immediate threat...do you now STILL have an obligation to retreat & get away from the still potentially deadly situation & to a safer location?
I (of course) am not talking about fleeing the scene but, is the obligation still to get away to a safer spot & phone 911?
It's an interesting PA. Legal question.
Let's say that you "stick around" when you could have easily moved halfway down the block to wait for the Police....& the BG moves for the weapon & you shoot again...could you possibly be legally accused of "Sticking Around" when you were presented with a Second Chance to retreat after the BG was shot & went down the first time. Just wondering.

As a private citizen you're probably much better off just to cover the guy & get on the ol' cell phone.

I've had a few shoplifters try this one on me. (out of breath from running and falling down) Not allowed to carry on that job, my options are always limited. I always pulled out the cell and called the boys in blue, tactfully staying on the BG's far side so if he rolled for any reason, at least I had a few seconds to react.

A Reminder

That if there are still any forum members that are still cell phone "hold outs" & don't have one yet...at least get a pre-paid cheapy & carry it just for those possible emergency 911 calls.
Saved me a 10 mile hike through a sub freezing snow storm two winters ago. Nice to be able to just call AAA from inside your vehicle!