Ex: Fish 5,000km in length. City existing for 100,000 of years... Rain being caused (always or sometimes?) by devas.

Also the idea of Kamma from past lives (some of them long time ago) , while being better than Theistic beliefs, is not much more provable/verifiable than God/Satan handing out the punishment.

Many people reject the Christian idea of hell with demons and boiling pots of water, etc, etc. And yet this is found in the suttas.

There are many truths in the suttas. But just because someone was right 9/10, it doesn't make him/her right the 10th time.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Ñāṇa wrote:Arguing that one cannot define “religion” in terms of a belief in god or in a soul because such beliefs are not found among all religions,

In suttas there is belief in Gods, hell beings, angels (devas). There is belief that death is not the end and one is reborn if one didn't follow Buddhist path and become an Arahant or a Buddha.

Ñāṇa wrote:(1) What are the fundamental characteristics of human beings and the chief problems they face?

Human being is made of 5 Khandhas... Chief problem is Dukkha caused by craving (taṇhā)...

Ñāṇa wrote:(2) What are the characteristics of nonhuman reality that are of greatest significance for human life?

If one does not get off samsara or becomes an Aryan, one can still be reborn in hell realms. So we are in very dangerous position.

Ñāṇa wrote:(3) Given the nature of man and the universe, how should men try to live?

Keep 5 (or more precepts), follow Noble Eightfold Path...

Ñāṇa wrote:(4) Given the answers to the first three questions, what practices will best develop and sustain in men an understanding of the nature of human and nonhuman reality and a dedication to the ideal of human life?(5) In seeking true answers to the first four questions, what method or methods should be used?

So Buddhism fits ALL those categories. Just because it believes in many gods, and hell/heaven realms which are not eternal. it doesn't make it any less religious.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Will the Real Buddha Please stand up? Was there even a real historical Buddha?

I am not 100% sure that there even was a historical Buddha. I tend to believe, but I have no evidence.

Few things:1) Do we have physical proof of his, his bones? How do we know that they belong to him and not some ascetic in those times?

2)We don't even know his name. Buddha is a title = Awakened one. Gotama is a clan name. Sakyamuni = Sakyan sage. None of them are first names.

The Buddha is on the whole an allegorical fiction these days, and we don't really know if he was ever anything more. Close attention to our earliest textual authorities reveals no recorded first name. The name Siddhartha appears only in later sources. His supposed surname was from one of the oldest and most prestigious Brahmin lineages mentioned in the Ṛgveda: Gotama (=most cows) from which we get the Surname Gautama (meaning ‘related to [the ancestor] Gotama). This is not a name that Kṣatriya can have been called, let alone someone who was most likely entirely outside the Brahmanical varṇa system. where I copied this

3) His biography is contradictory. We know the popular story about a rich prince who at age of 29 sneaked with the help of Channa the charioteer from the palace at night leaving his kingdom, wife and day old child.

Even in the prime of youth, with black hair, against the wish of mother and father, when they were crying with tearing eyes, I shaved head and beard, donned yellow robes leaving the household became homeless. mn36

Apparently in this story:i) his mother was alive, she did not die when he was born.ii) Buddha did not sneak out from palace at night. He became a monk in front of their eyes.iii) No mention of wife and childiv) He is describe to be in "prime of youth" a strange description of 29 year old in ancient world with much shorter life expectancy. Youth today, when lifespan is longer, means (16-24) if not teenager or even younger.

The text reinforces his young age with several terms: dahara, yobbana and paṭhama vaya. The word dahara means 'little, a young boy, a youth'. Buddhaghosa glosses it with taruṇa 'a tender young age, esp. a young calf'. The second word, yobbana, also means 'a youth'. The phrase paṭhama vaya means in 'the first stage of life', as opposed to middle age and old age. However the text also says he shaves off hair and beard (kesa-massuṃ ohāretvā) and this is common to all of the various narratives of the Buddha's going forth. Unless this is simply a stock phrase the youth must have passed puberty, and had a year or two to grow a beard. But not much more: if we were to describe a grown man as 'a boy' or 'a youth' it would seem awkward at best. I think we could say that this is describing a youth of 15 or 16. The tradition later made him 29, which is into middle-age by the standards of the day. link

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

In a sense, the modern Buddhist is trying to get at the more ancient and more traditional buddhism [or more correctly, Dhamma], and what we are finding is a Buddha who looks a lot more like a modern scientist.

- or could it rather be, that's what we want to find.

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." (SN 22.97)

manas wrote:Regarding this quote from earlier, not sure who originally said it:

In a sense, the modern Buddhist is trying to get at the more ancient and more traditional buddhism [or more correctly, Dhamma], and what we are finding is a Buddha who looks a lot more like a modern scientist.

- or could it rather be, that's what we want to find.

That is the problem. We start with preconceived notions and then search for the evidence in the suttas. What we like we accept, what we don't like we say "later additions!"

Also, it does seem like suttas were modified at least slightly and gave us a "digest" of what was said. I just can't believe that real dialogue could go like it is in the suttas and how even a master debater who could make "pillars sweat" would be crushed so easily. In the online forums we see people much more tough then in the suttas. Of course "digest" begs the question: what was missing from the suttas? Would that missing stuff change our current beliefs about what the Buddha said or not?

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Alex123 wrote:That is the problem. We start with preconceived notions and then search for the evidence in the suttas.

That evidence, whatever it is, can be allowed to confirm, challenge, or rewrite those notions; coming to the table with baggage already is an obvious state of affairs, but it isn't a hopeless one. The texts are there for a reason: to take anyone, whatever their notions, and point them the right way.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

One thing I'm sure is that the Buddha was a master of satire. All the wise people I've met in my life were all smart and funny as hell. Quality sense of humor could tell you a lot about one's level of wisdom, probably the Buddha was no exception.

I never thought for one second that the suttas were written on the actual words of the Buddha. All the religious material on this planet are constructed and reconstructed over centuries. Say, maybe, 5% of the suttas include actual words from a man known as the Buddha, who apparently lived around 2500 BC. I'm still reading on the Sramana movement, downloaded lots of e-books. Apparently the Buddha was a Jain practitioner in his youth.

silver surfer wrote:I never thought for one second that the suttas were written on the actual words of the Buddha. All the religious material on this planet are constructed and reconstructed over centuries. Say, maybe, 5% of the suttas include actual words from a man known as the Buddha, who apparently lived around 2500 BC. I'm still reading on the Sramana movement, downloaded lots of e-books. Apparently the Buddha was a Jain practitioner in his youth.

I think you meant 500 BC. Also, from what source did you hear that the Buddha practiced Jainism?

Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Mkoll wrote:I think you meant 500 BC. Also, from what source did you hear that the Buddha practiced Jainism?

Couple of my pdf files mention it.

Vaishali, the birthplace of Mahavira was at its height of prosperity, and by its association with Mahavira it became far-famed in the religious world of India. Teachers from Vaishali preached great principles for the uplift of humanity and lived an austere life of fasts and penances, and Mahavira stood out as the most prominent of his contemporaries.

According to the Mahāvastu, the Buddha sought his first teachers, Āḷāra Kālāma and Uddaka Rāmaputta in Vaishali and even started his life as a Jain, under their teachings. After discovering his Middle Path, he became more and more honored at Vaishali, receiving a royal reception; the city built him a kutagara-sala, a pinnacled rest house in its suburban park known as the Maha-vana. It was at Vaishali that the Second Buddhist Council was held; and it came to be looked upon as a holy spot where differences in the Sangha could be ironed out. His celebrated disciple Amra-pali was a resident of Vaishali at which place she bequeathed her park to the Buddha and the community.

Some online Hindu/Jain pages also argue that the Buddha practiced Jain asceticism for a while, prior to his enlightenment.

Mkoll wrote:I think you meant 500 BC. Also, from what source did you hear that the Buddha practiced Jainism?

Couple of my pdf files mention it.

Vaishali, the birthplace of Mahavira was at its height of prosperity, and by its association with Mahavira it became far-famed in the religious world of India. Teachers from Vaishali preached great principles for the uplift of humanity and lived an austere life of fasts and penances, and Mahavira stood out as the most prominent of his contemporaries.

According to the Mahāvastu, the Buddha sought his first teachers, Āḷāra Kālāma and Uddaka Rāmaputta in Vaishali and even started his life as a Jain, under their teachings. After discovering his Middle Path, he became more and more honored at Vaishali, receiving a royal reception; the city built him a kutagara-sala, a pinnacled rest house in its suburban park known as the Maha-vana. It was at Vaishali that the Second Buddhist Council was held; and it came to be looked upon as a holy spot where differences in the Sangha could be ironed out. His celebrated disciple Amra-pali was a resident of Vaishali at which place she bequeathed her park to the Buddha and the community.

The Mahāvastu is part of the Lokottaravāda school, a sub-sect of the Mahāsāṃghika. The Mahāsāṃghika seem to be a source of the initial development of Mahayana Buddhism.

silver surfer wrote:Some online Hindu/Jain pages also argue that the Buddha practiced Jain asceticism for a while, prior to his enlightenment.

silver surfer wrote:I never thought for one second that the suttas were written on the actual words of the Buddha. All the religious material on this planet are constructed and reconstructed over centuries. Say, maybe, 5% of the suttas include actual words from a man known as the Buddha, who apparently lived around 2500 BC. I'm still reading on the Sramana movement, downloaded lots of e-books. Apparently the Buddha was a Jain practitioner in his youth.

I think you meant 500 BC. Also, from what source did you hear that the Buddha practiced Jainism?

From A History of Mindfullness by Bhiku Sujato:

"Although the Bodhisatta never identifies himself in this period as following any teacher, his practices and views are identical with the Jains.And when the group of five ascetics abandoned him they went to stay in the ‘Rishi’s Park’ in Benares, where even today there is a Jain temple."

and:

"Also, their goal was typically psychic powers, whereas the Jains aimed at liberation of the soul. Thus the Bodhisatta’s austerities arecloser to the Jains than any other group we know of; the Jains themselves preserve a tradition that the Buddha spent time as a Jain ascetic."

Smile all the timedhammarelax

Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

silver surfer wrote:I never thought for one second that the suttas were written on the actual words of the Buddha. All the religious material on this planet are constructed and reconstructed over centuries. Say, maybe, 5% of the suttas include actual words from a man known as the Buddha, who apparently lived around 2500 BC. I'm still reading on the Sramana movement, downloaded lots of e-books. Apparently the Buddha was a Jain practitioner in his youth.

I think you meant 500 BC. Also, from what source did you hear that the Buddha practiced Jainism?

From A History of Mindfullness by Bhiku Sujato:

"Although the Bodhisatta never identifies himself in this period as following any teacher, his practices and views are identical with the Jains.And when the group of five ascetics abandoned him they went to stay in the ‘Rishi’s Park’ in Benares, where even today there is a Jain temple."

and:

"Also, their goal was typically psychic powers, whereas the Jains aimed at liberation of the soul. Thus the Bodhisatta’s austerities arecloser to the Jains than any other group we know of; the Jains themselves preserve a tradition that the Buddha spent time as a Jain ascetic."

Smile all the timedhammarelax

Thanks.

For some reason you didn't also include the rest of the paragraph in between those two quotes:

Such ideas were not exclusive to the Jains; they were common in theIndian yogic tradition, and are met with frequently in the early Brahmanical scriptures as well, as Mahā Kaccāna’s verses above indicate. In factthe Jains were reformists, in that they rejected forms of asceticism thatmight harm living beings, and they also laid stress on the proper mentalattitude. Earlier, more primitive, ‘professors of self-torture’ had believedin the efficacy of the physical torture itself, irrespective of any mentaldevelopment. Also, their goal was typically psychic powers, whereas theJains aimed at liberation of the soul. Thus the Bodhisatta’s austerities arecloser to the Jains than any other group we know of; the Jains themselvespreserve a tradition that the Buddha spent time as a Jain ascetic.

I wouldn't deny the possibility but I would reject the conclusion that "the Buddha was a Jain practitioner in his youth" when he just as easily could have been practicing based on his own inspiration and/or based upon common practices and ideas that were widespread in the samana culture. Either way, it is unlikely we will ever know for sure.

I am hoping that some of the members of DW who are specialists in post-modern studies or perhaps analysts of myths in literature would come out of the woodwork and contribute ideas about the place and function of the suttas' mythic elements. I get the impression that academic engagements with mythic literature have graduated from the old Church fears of literalism (since that leads to a challenge of the Theistic narrative) and are now looking at myth much more favourably as sophisticated literary devices.

One such recent example is Gethin's lovely analysis* of that grotesquely mythic sutta, DN 17. He gives a pretty convincing explanation that the imagery in that sutta is just allegory for the forms of escape/transcendance from the world. I'm not sure if his approach is unusual or common for his circles, but it would be interesting to see how much of the mythic elements can be reduced to symbolism, without stirring up more angst over the literalism of rebirth.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Another facet to investigate will be the development of jatakas & avadanas, indicating a complicated interaction with surrounding mythoi.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

What I had in mind was not the substantive works that you cited, but more along asking if there were more studies of Buddhist myths along analytical lines, such as Kenneth Burke's work on Western religious symbolism or Laurence Coupe's work in more recent myth settings. It's something that Bhante Sujato raises from time to time - myths as utility, rather than literally - but we seldom get the chance to dive into a detailed study of its methodology. It would be nice to see how Myth Studies interacts formally with Buddhist texts, where a rigorous methodology is articulated and applied in understanding the mythic elements that annoy "Western" Buddhists.