"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

"Saddam Hussein is not the only deranged dictator who is willing to deprive his people in order to acquire weapons of mass destruction." -- Jim Jeffords, October 8, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, October 9, 2002

"(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002

"Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States." -- Joe Lieberman, August, 2002

"Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Saddam's existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq's enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration's policy towards Iraq, I don't think there can be any question about Saddam's conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002

So being wounded in Bush/Cheney's cash grab for Haliburton makes you a traitor?

You really are one of the worst excuses for a "human" on the internet. I don't even care that I'm falling for your troll. You are a piece of shiat. I would throw away the shoe that stepped on your steaming, parasite filled steaming pile.

Kurmudgeon:lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.

It isn't a reflection on Christians. It's a reflection on Fascism. Fascist rhetoric appeals folk legends in order to beguile. In the U.S., one of the principle folklores which demonstrably galvanizes vast portions of the population is Evangelical Christianity. This doesn't belittle the individual Christian or even Christianity itself. It simply warns that they will try to use your own beliefs against you. It's how they operate.

Yogimus:You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

Those two got a complete pass. Criticism is not prosecution. Obama is going to get a pass too. There is something about the collective American psyche that would rather see our homegrown war criminals go free than admit to ourselves that Americans are capable of committing war crimes.

I felt like trolling and saying "the Knesset", but I really don't feel like joking this time. So I'll just leave this here:

"All this was inspired by the principle--which is quite true within itself--that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying."

kombi:Oh and this BS with if you supported the war. Your an idiot, Stupid, Dont think for your self. on and on and on. And if you where opposed to the war you are smart and forward thinking. Thats whats destroying this country. You could talk disagree and move on. Now if you disagree well you live in flyover country anyway so you dont matter. or well your a gun owner so you automatically are dumb and your opinion does not matter. Only the coast matter. We will tell you whats best. Cant we all just get along?

Yeah, sorry, you people created that escalation of rhetoric.

America: Love it or leave it!

America! If you are against the iraq war you are a traitor(heard millions of times, by millions of people)

America! If you don't drive giant 12 cylinder SUVs you are some GREEN commie trying to destroy America

This once great nation used to be populated by people who didn't just sit back and take it on the chin when power (government or corporate) decided to put the screws to them. Had Iraq 2 happened in the early 1900s, you can rest assured that a ragtag assortment of labor unions, farmers, intellectuals, and political muckrakers would have been out in the streets rioting; demanding to know why the working class was sent off to die so the elites could fatten their billfolds.

Instead, we not only re-elected the cretins who plunged this country headfirst into war profiteering (which is all Iraq 2 was), but we completely swore off any investigative or punitive measures in the aftermath to punish those responsible. Obama has made it clear that there will be no prosecutions of anyone in the Bush administration. Your weak countrymen have responded to this with a resounding "meh".

You can't blame power seekers for not giving a fark about you, soldier. They've always been that way and they always will be. But you CAN blame your countrymen for being derelict in their duty (namely, not holding these "elected" leaders' feet to the fire when necessary).

I laugh every time I see one of those. "Power of Pride". Yeah, exactly. Your GOP "Power of Pride" basically ruined an entire region, and the American economy. So when I see these faded, falling apart stickers on cars, the drivers eyes dead and soulless, I laugh. I laugh at how evil and stupid the GOP is. GOP pride made the world a worse place to be.

I got an honest question that will probably get shouted down just like all the other times I've asked, but here goes.

At what point do those that enlist willingly have to own their own failure to recognize the suck that enlisting is, was, and always will be?

I knew better than to enlist at age 18. A lot younger. And now I, a functioning sane and un-f--ked up adult, only have to look on at all the glitter-tear ooh-rah bullsh*t that the military puts out to know I was right and all the people that fell for it were wrong.

When will people quit falling for the bullsh*t the military puts out and quit enlisting? I wish I knew. Probably never. And that is the biggest tragedy of all.

Bush and Cheney and all the other farktards would be nothing without millions of willing victims lining up to be patriotic tools for them.

sendtodave:Corn_Fed: None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

How were they strong armed into it?

Unless you mean strong armed by their constituants, who wanted war.

But that's normal. We call it Democracy.

You can blame a political party, I blame the American people who, like this soldier, wanted war.

Which war did they want? The one promoted by the Republicans.

Iraq was not on the minds of Americans in 2002. Afghanistan was. Then, in September of 2002, the Bush Republicans began mentioning hints of Iraq, slowly building/selling it. They sold it to the American public.

Look, the Democrats were spineless cowards. But there IS a difference between hatching a plan, and being duped by the hatched plan.

lolpix:Kurmudgeon: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.

It isn't a reflection on Christians. It's a reflection on Fascism. Fascist rhetoric appeals folk legends in order to beguile. In the U.S., one of the principle folklores which demonstrably galvanizes vast portions of the population is Evangelical Christianity. This doesn't belittle the individual Christian or even Christianity itself. It simply warns that they will try to use your own beliefs against you. It's how they operate.

Yogimus:You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

We'll never know what Cheney's Intel Unit was telling those guys behind the scenes. I distinctly remember one congressman saying Cheney's people told him Saddam had drones that could reach the east coast with nerve gas. Total BS, but scary. They wanted war, they got it, and they killed anybody who got in their way.

I've looked for that article since and it's pretty much gone down the memory hole like so much other stuff.

Still, they should have know they were liars. I could tell and I'm nobody.

lolpix:"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.

Jim_Callahan:So, um, sorta like blaming two members of the executive branch for a war pretty much universally approved by congress and encouraged by several of our international allies for reasons confirmed by our own intelligence guys?

Um, yeah, just for review...

Those two members of the executive branch:

- dreamed it up- planned the war- promoted the war- sold the war to everyone else

Let's not whitewash the fact that it was ALL THEIR IDEA. They're completely responsible.

Operation Iraqi Freedom documents are some 48,000 boxes of documents, audiotapes and videotapes that were discovered by the U.S. military during the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

During an interview with Committee staff, the lead DIA analyst who follows the issue of possible connections between the Iraqi government and al-Qa'ida noted that the DIA 'continues to maintain that there was no partnership between the two organizations'.

The study also cites documents demonstrating that key evidence presented by Colin Powell to the United Nations in February 2003 had been severely misinterpreted by the U.S. government.

The study's findings represent the analysis of many of the Iraqi Freedom documents and related interviews. In particular, the project concluded that: (1) Saddam's secretive and authoritarian government, together with his paranoia, rendered the Iraqi army grossly unprepared for conflict with coalition forces; (2) Saddam grossly miscalculated the ability of his contacts with the Russian, French, Chinese and other governments to prevent military action against Iraq, and (3) although Iraq almost certainly did not possess weapons of mass destruction, Saddam's desire to preserve ambiguity on the issue, together with his government's secrecy and previous attempts to deceive UN inspectors made it difficult for Iraq to convince the world that it had disarmed.

Many of the documents seem to make clear that Saddam's regime had given up on seeking a WMD capability by the mid-1990s. As AP reported, "Repeatedly in the transcripts, Saddam and his lieutenants remind each other that Iraq destroyed its chemical and biological weapons in the early 1990s, and shut down those programs and the nuclear-bomb program, which had never produced a weapon." At one 1996 presidential meeting, top weapons program official Amer Mohammed Rashid, describes his conversation with UN weapons inspector Rolf Ekeus: "We don't have anything to hide, so we're giving you all the details." At another meeting Saddam told his deputies, "We cooperated with the resolutions 100 percent and you all know that, and the 5 percent they claim we have not executed could take them 10 years to (verify). Don't think for a minute that we still have WMD. We have nothing."

It feels stupid to even argue about it. The war was destructive, painful, and ultimately fruitless. We destabilized the entire region for nothing and I doubt the Iraqi people are any better off, the dead ones certainly aren't. I feel like an idiot for ever supporting it. Now we have a lot of sick veterans to take care of and bills to pay. I learned something from it, I lost friends to it, and I'll be witness to the consequences of that war until the day I die. I hope this dying soldier finds the peace he deserves.

Corn_Fed:None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

Then they shouldn't have rubber stamped it. Nelson Mandela was jailed 27 years for standing up for what he thought was right. What would have happened to a congressman? At worst he might lose an election and have to go back to practicing law in the private sector.

I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11. Had I been wounded there I would still be miserable because of my physical deterioration and imminent death, but I would at least have the comfort of knowing that my injuries were a consequence of my own decision to defend the country I love.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You chose to be part of a war machine?

more like: a guy (bush) gets jumped by a couple of thugs (al qaeda) in the alley (NYC). he asks you to help him kick their asses. you agree (enlist). on your way, he decides to rob a liquor store (iraq) and forces you to help him.

now, most people would say, "hell no" at that point. however, as a soldier who enlisted, you have no choice but to follow your commander in chief.

10 years ago today I graduated from basic training. I was in Iraq 6 months later. I was against the war but that didn't matter, I signed up and accept responsibility for my actions. Now I need my country to be responsible for its actions. I'm talking about the VA disability backlog. These men and women have fought for ten years straight and now they are fighting for disability benefits . Almost a million vets are waiting on average of 300 days to receive benefits to help with the injuries they have. It's our obligation to care for these people and we are dropping the ball. IAVA (Iraq Afghanistan Vets of America) has a petition to try and get the backlog eliminated. Sign it. Donate time or money. Whether you agreed with the war or not doesn't matter, we have an obligation to care for these people and it's not getting done. FARK does some really good things and I'd love to see this community take up this fight. If we can raise money to buy Joe Biden car, we should be able to do something.We can disagree about everything under the sun but we should be able to agree that no injured veteran should have to wait upwards of a year for help./help us Fark/can't post links but you can find them/sorry about the wall of text phone no likey fark

muck4doo:Confabulat: muck4doo: My point was to make you look like the the knee jerk emotional idiot that you are

Why can't you apologize to your fellow Americans for being so wrong?

Why can't your hero apologize to fellow Americans and citizens of the world for being so wrong? Oh, that's right. They're dead.

Who is my hero? Obama? What the hell does Obama have to do with the Iraq War? I think Obama is better than the other guys, but he's no hero. Weird.

You seem to have some sort of mental or emotional breakdown when it comes to discussing modern American history. Apparently you got it all wrong, and now you're unable to exactly process this disconnect in your brain, so you are getting upset about Obama?

Dude. Let it sink in.

History will always record your opinions on the Iraq War were stupid, ignorant, and wrong. Nothing will ever change that. Thousands died while you helplessly clung to your dimwitted beliefs.

Corn_Fed:That's exactly where you are wrong. I was listening to the only people who actually knew what they were talking about--the UN inspectors. Contrary to popular conception, they did know what was going on in Iraq. They had the records, they had the evidence, but the intelligence agencies were generally too paranoid to listen to reason.

The evidence pointed strongly to there being no WMD's or any reason to fear Iraq. But intelligence agencies are just as prone to ideological extremism as any other. And they were being ruled by the tinfoil hatters.

I exactly remember when Bush, et al., refused to let the UN inspectors continue even though they had found nothing. The inspectors pleaded for just a few more weeks, but Bush said "IMMINENT THREAT WE DON'T HAVE SIX WEEKS" and the right-wing echo chamber shouted them down as new world order commie left-wing one-government useless bureaucrats.

Of course, history has proven they were 100% correct, and the Bush administration was 100% wrong.

I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

Marubozo:He had me up until he said: "I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. "

So, he was making a major life decision based on a knee-jerk reaction to which he had no real information on other than the flurry of media info at the time. Then he got sent off to the admittedly wrong war, and now wants to biatch about it?

Here's an idea. Maybe wait more than 48 hours after a national tragedy so that you can get your emotions in check before deciding to sign your life away to the military to avenge something you really have no clue about at the time.

I'd give the guy a break on that one. Young and naive, much like many of our grandfathers that signed up after Pearl Harbor. At least he is capable of reflecting and changing his worldview based on what he's experienced since then, which is better than almost half the people in this country.

In all honesty, when Dick Cheney dies, if he isn't some kind of evil monster for real, I hope they donate his body to science because I really want to know what the fark is wrong with him. Is a part of his brain just dead?

Gee. A letter damning GWB and Cheney. Who coulda seen this coming. And from an outfit called TruthDig.

What did this guy think was going to happen? Tiddlywinks and ticker tape parades? Qar is hell and if you sign up to be a soldier, you are probably going to see the Hell.

A tug on the heart-strings moment means no one criticizes, but the issue of taking America into war deserves a lot more seriousness than a letter from a veteran, whose opinion is at odds with so many other veterans.

Congress may have been misled by the bad intel.. but they should have known better. When they voted to authorized Bush to use force(something they said was just a formality, to show Saddam we were serious), I was doing my best impression of Admiral Ackbar.

I can agree with him, but my father, an 82 year old Korean war vet, who has been on the verge of death for the last 10 years, the VA has been incredible, from his mobility scooter, the ramp they built on my parents back porch, to the lift the put on my parents stairs. And he spends at least 1 week a month in the VA getting treated for UTIs, and the nurses and rehab specialists they send to the house, not too mention the meds, the catheters and the diapers, and when he goes there at least twice a month in an ambulance, they do a spot on job.

Let me ask you one questionIs your money that good?Will it buy you salvation?Do you think that it could?I think you will findWhen your death takes its tollAll the money you've madeWill never buy back your soul.

Loadmaster:Joe Blowme: Funny, he does not speak for my vfw post of the millions given a chance at freedom... I wonder what those buried in mass graves by Sadam would say. Its ok, im sure there were a few veterans who did not like deposing Hitler either and they were drafted so I can kinda see their point./volunteer armies, how do they work?

The alternative, which no one ever mentions, is that Saddam would still be in power, killing his own subjects and threatening the rest of the Mid-East, if we had not freed Iraq.

//Oh, and thank you very much for your service.

And instead we just have massive sectarian violence that claims hundreds of times Saddam's body count in Iraq and threatens to erupt the middle east into a series of endless proxy wars between the remaining governments there.

Bartman66:DONE!!This pretty much covers all of the crying / blaming all one side or saying that those poor dems were .. strong armed? or forced??lol..ya right...

Dial me in here, but wasn't Congress' vote on the Iraq invasion based on the intelligence they'd been presented by the White House? Intelligence we've learned was skewed and/or faked by the Bush Junta?

Hell, I don't even blame President Bush so much, as he was just the Friendly Smilin' Face telling us the plan. It was the Smart Guys like Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, etc. who thought they'd make a name for themselves as The Greatest-er Generation for waging war against Islamo-Fascism, and turn a buck in the process. George the Younger was no leader, but a GOP Product, sold to Homeland like so much Coke, Big Mac, and Gigantic shiatty Car.

They really screwed the armed forces. They violated the trust of earnest young Americans, starting off to rightly avenge 9/11 by punishing Afghanistan and Al Qaida, then changing the deal once the contract was signed and pressing Projeqt Iraq. Classic bait and switch. No goddamn good. And they've screwed the rest of us Americans by sticking us with the bill for caring for thousands of disabled vets for the next 50 years.

Bartman66:Without Fail: Bartman66: Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's...

Did Clinton or Gore invade Iraq?

Did they shoot missles? but more importantly did they also believ and even make SPEECHES about their dire need to take action if Sadam doesn;t get rid of his WMD'S? what actions do you think that they were referring to when they claimed that? more strong worded letters? if that was the case then why did he even send missle over there?whyt not only write letters and use "mean" words??

If that's true and those politicians were speaking more than just making strong rhetoric, what stopped Bush Sr. from finishing the job when Saddam was actually a threat to the international community? The neocons were foaming at the mouth for it back then, too. Why? Because of something realists call containment in international relations.

The Bush admin gleefully lied this nation into war, and most of the country, still farked in the head from 9/11, was all too happy to follow along. It was basically fascism in America at that point. There are plenty of spineless and corrupt Dems who went along, but I suggest you look up the speech on the Senator Byrd gave before the war started, and remember that the current president won the Democratic primary largely because he was against the war from the start.

Watching Republicans try to worm out of their place as the guys who royally farked the country during the 00's is pathetic. Those who remember how it went down will never let you take that albatross off from around your neck.

I'm not going to mock or praise this man... I know nothing of war, not have I ever served in the military. The letter seems sincere and I agree with him for the most part, but maybe I'm just numb to all of this, at this point. I don't know...

Yes, this was a war of choice that was sold on lies, promoted by the media, and, at the beginning at least, supported by the majority of Americans regardless of which political ideology they subscribed to. There was a vocal minority, who opposed it and they were shouted down at all levels. But we should not forget, this was not a unanimous war... There were many (again, not a majority) pointing out the folly of this little nation building project and predicting what it would cost our nation in lives and treasure. Those people were proven right and the architects of this war, in my mind, are the ones who carry most of the blame for it. Will they ever have their Robert McNamara moment? I guess time will tell, but, in my mind, the Bush Administration bares the responsibility for all these lost lives. It was their decision to commit forces. It was their decision to invade a country half-assed with no defined victory conditions. Does that absolve the folks who allowed themselves to be led by their noses by the Bush Administration into a senseless war? No.

I'm impressed that so many people have gone with the "hey, democrats were totally involved, too" angle. Coming from people that otherwise claim to be independent just makes it humorous when you are spending time trying to absolve Bush/GOP from even a small bit of blame.

If the Bush Administration didn't want to go to war, they had countless opportunities to stop it. Instead, they ignored or falsified intelligence, ignored international opinion, and did everything they could to sell people on the greatness of the cause.

Pointing out that 85 democrats got tricked by the false intelligence and jingoistic fervor stirred up by Bush and the GOP doesn't give you a winning argument.

That you are still fighting against the idea of blaming Bush ten years later is amazing, though.

I'm sorry he's dying, but we are all dying. We are nanoseconds behind him on the scale of eternity.

He enlisted, was not drafted, and cashed and spent every paycheck. Every whore hates their johns, but only become vocal about it once their looks have gone.

/yes, 25 years Army, deployed overseas to the sandbox//got combat patch///didn't care for a lot of thingsm bad food, long hours, but always reenlisted...if I hadn't gotten too old and fat and asthmatic, I'd still be in.

GORDON: The man actually worked with Congress that wasn't of his party. Bills got signed. Budgets got passed. He had half the unemployment numbers of Obama. Yet, he was the moron and Obama is the great leader.

Hey, anybody remember, "Bush Derangement Syndrome?"

Yeah because the other party was not hell-bent on farking him on every turn, being against him just to be against him.That is the legacy of the Republicans in Congress since Obama. Unemployment is correlated to the economy-and Dubya inherited a boom from Clinton, and under him it turned into the Great Recession.

To everyone who says "b. . .b. . .but all these other countries believed the intel too!"

Other countries had suspicionsbut were not persuaded enough to join the war, which is why the "coalition of the willing" was almost fleshed out with mine-hunting monkeys. So we had a bunch of troops from Great Britain, some from Poland and that's just about it. France and Germany were not persuaded along with a bunch of other countries a lot of war cheerleaders point to now as believing the intel about WMD.

Again, the had reason to be suspicious (hence why they supported sending in inspectors,) but not enough to actually endorse war. It's not black and white, dipshiats. You can't start a farking war on a slight suspicion. Well, you can,but history has shown yet again you really shouldn't.

Yes, the French surrender monkeys (different from the mine-hunting monkeys,) were right. Hence freedom fries.

Term limits, for all of Congress. After two terms in either House or Senate, you're done. That is all you get. If you are very good, the other house might take you, but after that, you have to go and live in the country you created. Liberal and Conservative alike.

No more making a career of public service.

No more getting rich on the people's dime and sending the people's army to make you richer.

No more six-figure salaries and lifetime benefits ON TOP of the ability to enrich yourself by colluding with war criminals. You get paid to do the job, and when the job is done, you get to go get another job, or retire, but the people do not care for you for life. That is what soldiers get, not the people who murder them.

No more eternal incumbencies to the point where the overwhelming majority of the people in charge of laws pertaining to the Internet can remember when color TV was new and no member of Congress can remember what minimum wage felt like.

No more stagnation, and no more accountability shoved under the rug because 'well, he's got seniority in the party.' Hell with that.

In politics as in biology, speeding up the turnover helps things evolve and improve faster.

I say we speed it the hell up, now. If we can essentially flip Congress inside of ten years, we CAN see everyone responsible for Iraq punished. Clear them all out and start over.

kombi:So you join the military. Get sick. Now pissed that you where expected to fight im a military action because well you joined the military. So today's military is just the post office. A bunch of guys that dont want to work. Dont want to do the job they volunteered for. Pick and choose what orders to follow. Well its definitely an example of the past few generations. Im sorry your sick. Im sorry your going out this way. I know your mad this is the way your going out. But grow a pair.

And get over it. This has been Obama war for what 5 years now. Has he pulled all the troops out no. And this war crimes crap needs to go away.

As if there was any comparison. Sheesh. Jimmy Carter was probably more of a war criminal.

Obama's administration is worse than Bush's in some ways. They are more prone to prosecuting whistle blowers, decline to prosecute bankers (HSBC) who wittingly launder money for drug cartels and Iran (Iran!), routinely seek to extend and expand the NDAA, expand drone warfare and so-called lily-pad bases to carry out extra-judicial killings and assassinations on their own authority throughout the Middle East and Africa. Obama is cool because he thinks you should have access to health insurance and everyone should quit picking on the gays. On the other hand, a few years ago he went to India as part of a trade PR tour and his personal guest of honor was the CEO of the company that makes the back scatter x-ray machines for use in air ports. In short, don't kid yourself. Obama is charming, but he's not a good guy.

Exactly. You're describing a normal POTUS vs. war criminals. There is no real comparison. Not that it's apples to oranges, that it's 1000:1 on the bullshiat scale. But thanks for insulting me by suggesting i'm a starry-eyed moron. Which, btw, i have found in exactly zero Obama supporters, as it is another right-wing fantasy.

pkt729:I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

Obama should have done this. That's not my crazy liberal fantasy -- if he was really any different than Bush, he would have told the Republicans (and half the Democrats) to shut the fark up and used his entire first term dragging this thing into daylight, no matter where it led.

He'd have been a one-termer for sure, but it would have done more long-term good than anything else he's been up to. This bullshiat will never stop until a rich guy goes to the chair for war crimes.

middleoftheday:I wonder what you get out of framing it this way. Even I knew in 2003 invading Iraq was stupid; just about everyone I knew and talked to at the time did. But somehow, there were people in my group of friends who joined anyway. Apparently their reasoning is not something you are capable of understanding and in fact feel the need to crap on.... which frankly says more about you than them.

Deciding to join in with something dangerous and stupid isn't reasoning, it's rationalization.

this country has picked a significant fight on average every 4 years since the Spanish-American war.there have been maybe two military interventions we have undertaken in the last century that we didn't actively choose to become a belligerent, but rather were the innocent victims.

heck, since my first memories as a small child thirty years ago these interventions I can recall:

that's 13, in 30 years, and only one of those was provoked. and we've been doing this for a century.If you go into the service assuming you will be defending America from an existential threat, you are just a straight up ignoramus.

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'Was there a man dismay'd?Not tho' the soldiers knewSome one had blunder'd:Theirs not to make reply,Theirs not to reason why,Theirs but to do and die:Into the valley of DeathRode the six hundred.

The Last of the Light Brigade~Rudyard Kipling

There were thirty million English who talked of England's might,There were twenty broken troopers who lacked a bed for the night.They had neither food nor money, they had neither service nor trade;They were only shiftless soldiers, the last of the Light Brigade.

They felt that life was fleeting; they knew not that art was long,That though they were dying of famine, they lived in deathless song.They asked for a little money to keep the wolf from the door;And the thirty million English sent twenty pounds and four!

They laid their heads together that were scarred and lined and grey;Keen were the Russian sabres, but want was keener than they;And an old Troop-Sergeant muttered, "Let us go to the man who writesThe things on Balaclava the kiddies at school recites."

They went without bands or colours, a regiment ten-file strong,To look for the Master-singer who had crowned them all in his song;And, waiting his servant's order, by the garden gate they stayed,A desolate little cluster, the last of the Light Brigade.

They strove to stand to attention, to straighten the toil-bowed back;They drilled on an empty stomach, the loose-knit files fell slack;With stooping of weary shoulders, in garments tattered and frayed,They shambled into his presence, the last of the Light Brigade.

The old Troop-Sergeant was spokesman, and "Beggin' your pardon," he said,"You wrote o' the Light Brigade, sir. Here's all that isn't dead.An' it's all come true what you wrote, sir, regardin' the mouth of hell;For we're all of us nigh to the workhouse, an' we thought we'd call an' tell."

No, thank you, we don't want food, sir; but couldn't you take an' writeA sort of 'to be continued' and 'see next page' o' the fight?We think that someone has blundered, an' couldn't you tell 'em how?You wrote we were heroes once, sir. Please, write we are starving now."

The poor little army departed, limping and lean and forlorn.And the heart of the Master-singer grew hot with "the scorn of scorn."And he wrote for them wonderful verses that swept the land like flame,Till the fatted souls of the English were scourged with the thing called Shame.

They sent a cheque to the felon that sprang from an Irish bog;They healed the spavined cab-horse; they housed the homeless dog;And they sent (you may call me a liar), when felon and beast were paid,A cheque, for enough to live on, to the last of the Light Brigade.

O thirty million English that babble of England's might,Behold there are twenty heroes who lack their food to-night;Our children's children are lisping to "honour the charge they made - "And we leave to the streets and the workhouse the charge of the Light Brigade!

Generation_D:I knew better than to enlist at age 18. A lot younger. And now I, a functioning sane and un-f--ked up adult, only have to look on at all the glitter-tear ooh-rah bullsh*t that the military puts out to know I was right and all the people that fell for it were wrong.

It's fantastic when people turn an "I don't want to" decision into an "I was too smart for that" decision years after the fact.

Hussein had some funky shiat, he gassed the Kurds in Halabja in March of 1988. He killed 182,000 in Al-Anfal from '86-'89, some of that from Chemical attacks.

Were they WMD's in iraq in 2003? Probably. Were they in the area's the Government painted as WMD silos, plants, etc. Clearly not.

Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Either way, Bush 1.0 should have stayed in Iraq initially, fought through to Baghdad, and killed or captured Hussein. Bush 2.0 always seemed to be trying to finish daddy's work.

You don't know your history. We already know what happened to Saddam's 1980's stocks of WMD's. Sadddam's brother-in-law, Hussain Kamel was in charge of them. 1996, as the UN inspectors were closing in, he was ordered to take all the stockpiles into the desert and blow them up. He did.

Later, when the UN inspectors found this out, and investigated, they found the pits with the blown-up ordance and chemicals. But because there is no way to totally count weapons after they've been destroyed, the inspectors couldn't be sure if this represented ALL the old weapons.

But the Duelfor Report, ordered by Bush after the invasion, makes it clear: Saddam had no WMD's left by 2003.

I know my history just fine. Kamel was in charge of WMD's and we're to take his word that he blew them all up? I think not. This is a country that doesn't exactly keep a spreadsheet of their bombs. Nevermind that Kamel said they had Nuclear weapons, which there's no proof of them having. Look, still, at Baghdad Bob, and his ridiculous statements about the infidels "committing suicide at the gates of Baghdad by the thousands," and I have a hard time believing anyone associated with Saddam Hussein says.

Like I said, I believe that there are probably still some chemical weapons in Iraq. I don't care what ...

Even if there were some straggler WMD's circa 2003, they would all be waaaaay past their shelf life. None of Iraq's WMD's were stable, or of high quality. After about 18 months, they were degraded to an essentially unweaponized state. We know that. We also KNEW that he didn't have any large weapons manufacturing facilities. The UN inspectors had already established that completely. Further, during the cat-and-mouse chases in the late 90's, the inspectors weren't looking for stockpiles or factories--they were only looking for blueprints. Because they already knew that factories and stockpiles didn't exist and/or were irrelevant.

The fact is, even if there were some stragglers which escaped detection, they certainly were no valid reason to invade/occupy an entire country. It was always complete bullshiat.

sendtodave:Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You chose to be part of a war machine?

Yours is not to reason why, yours is but to do and die.

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'Was there a man dismay'd?Not tho' the soldiers knewSome one had blunder'd:Theirs not to make reply,Theirs not to reason why,Theirs but to do and die:Into the valley of DeathRode the six hundred.

GORDON:Fart_Machine: GORDON: I'm sorry, who was it that bore false witness?

You realize that many of those quotes are truncated, offer no context, or were made prior to Operation Desert Fox right?

Yes. All of those democrats talking about Saddam's active WMD program in 2002 is totally out of context.

In some cases, yes. There's a Snopes article linked above if you'd like to check it out.

I was never in favor of the war, and never a huge fan of Bush, and I've even been an athiest for 30 years, but goddam do I hate the selective memory of knee-jerk Bush hating liberals. The man actually worked with Congress that wasn't of his party. Bills got signed. Budgets got passed. He had half the unemployment numbers of Obama. Yet, he was the moron and Obama is the great leader.

Probably because Bush left the country in a shambles and Obama had to clean up the mess. So far he's done a pretty good job.

Hey, anybody remember, "Bush Derangement Syndrome?"

I remember it being a deflection excuse from people like yourself. Good job.

Hussein had some funky shiat, he gassed the Kurds in Halabja in March of 1988. He killed 182,000 in Al-Anfal from '86-'89, some of that from Chemical attacks.

Were they WMD's in iraq in 2003? Probably. Were they in the area's the Government painted as WMD silos, plants, etc. Clearly not.

Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Either way, Bush 1.0 should have stayed in Iraq initially, fought through to Baghdad, and killed or captured Hussein. Bush 2.0 always seemed to be trying to finish daddy's work.

You don't know your history. We already know what happened to Saddam's 1980's stocks of WMD's. Sadddam's brother-in-law, Hussain Kamel was in charge of them. 1996, as the UN inspectors were closing in, he was ordered to take all the stockpiles into the desert and blow them up. He did.

Later, when the UN inspectors found this out, and investigated, they found the pits with the blown-up ordance and chemicals. But because there is no way to totally count weapons after they've been destroyed, the inspectors couldn't be sure if this represented ALL the old weapons.

But the Duelfor Report, ordered by Bush after the invasion, makes it clear: Saddam had no WMD's left by 2003.

Yogimus:Before we get too carried away here, please remember that there WERE nerve agents in Iraq, which was the whole issue behind the whole U.N. inspection teams finding the storage areas unsealed after they secured them. Furthermore, the military has been steadily disposing those stockpiles since the war began.

I'm sure writing a letter to people who haven't been in power for four years will get you very far. Bush the younger totally started the war in iraq with absolutely no help from congress or any other member of government.

This is the world in which we live: Billionaire psychopaths send everyone but their kids into slavery or war - solely to increase their own wealth - and no one cares.

Yay! {8/

it's not that nobody cares, everyone cares about it, but we can't figure out what to do about it. sure, there's always the second amendment solution, but there's got to be a more peaceful, more permanent way to solve it or we are no better than mindless animals.

One might consider that the veteran in the article has the freedom to address his [former] Commander in Chief and tell of how he feels his loyalty and service has been severely abused, now that he is feeling the breath of mortality close on the back of his neck.

Does he not have the freedom to speak of a grievance? To petition for redress of his grievance?

If the answer to that question is "no", then none of us has any freedom any longer to speak of our own grievances either. This is obviously not the true state of affairs.

Now certainly, a soldier is not permitted to tell his commander where he would prefer to be deployed, as he is required to follow the orders given to him (unless they are patently illegal under the clear guidelines set down in the UCMJ).

I should not even need to speak of this.

Also, it is absolutely true that this veteran volunteered of his own free will and was not drafted willy-nilly into the tragedy he found himself dumped into. Thus, he has his own *personal* aspect of responsibility in the matter.

There is a very strong undercurrent of "I regret getting myself into this hideous mess" if one will only read between the lines of anger and grievance just a little bit. How this has escaped the notice of some in the thread, I do not understand.

However, this is not the major point of the story.

What this veteran is telling us is that in hindsight the invasion of Iraq was a bad choice ultimately made by his Commander in Chief, a choice the [former] CinC ultimately had the FINAL authority to refuse to make, in spite of the advice given him, if he freely so chose, in just as free a way that the veteran volunteered to serve...and a bad choice that the [former] CinC himself will not suffer the least or lightest consequences from, nor will the former CinC's compatriots, that the veteran has had inflicted upon him.

Loyalty goes in TWO directions, not ONE, not exclusively from subordinate to superior only, but also from superior toward subordinate.

How can this be a negative thing to address?

This idea of "you owe us fealty, but we owe you nothing whatsoever" is corrosive and ultimately deadly. It obliterates the bonds that hold not only an armed force and the chain of command but an entire society together.

The veteran has already had plenty of time, far too much in fact, to point the finger of blame at himself.

gh0strid3r:Alphax: gh0strid3r: Alphax: gh0strid3r: Hero? More like Douchecanoe. I'm sorry, but I'm a war veteran too and I do not blame the president for the war. The president had war set upon him and he responded.

Factually untrue. War was not 'set upon him', save that his cabinet pushed him into it for the war profiteering.

wrong

In what way do you claim that I'm wrong?

I don't, but you gave no more evidence for your side ofthe argument than I did. You just used larger buzzwords.

I'm not out giving evidence that the Earth is Round, either. Or that fire is hot.

muck4doo:thamike: Kurmudgeon: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.

gja:I'm an Egyptian!: If there should be no griping that the result was the product of his choices, then why have the VA? The injuries resultant from combat deployments are due to their choices. In hospital settings, when an individual presents for treatment, the usual statement in the note reads along the lines of "patient complains of (insert injury/malady here)." According to your argument, they should keep it to themselves, as these injuries were the product of their own choices. Why the statement that combat deployed veterans should be exempt from income taxes for life? Do you want to reward these individuals for making bad choices?

In addition, there is the question of informed choice. What you are assuming is perfect information, which doesn't exist. It never has, and it never will. Going by your reasoning, the individuals defrauded by Bernie Madoff should have no recourse, as they made their choices. They chose, so they reliquish their right to complain, correct? In the case of the ones that he holds responsible, he does not have the option to vote them out as you suggest, being they're already out of office. In light of this fact, he decided to write this letter. What, should he retroactively vote against them?

I would agree with you that you're not experiencing conflict, solely because you sent whatever conflict there may have been down the memory hole, and replaced it with a childish black and white view of the world. Let me guess, you're a Libertarian.

I am childish? More like you are being naive.

Never said to take it to the extreme of saying "let 'em burn". But informed consent is not something one should expect in the military, where one is ORDERED to do something. It is not reasonable to expect, and not realistic. Inherently there is a lack of choice in such an occupation. It is designed that way. You think superior officers should have to offer up a vote on what action to take in a situation?My Fed tax exemption wist is to reduce the burden for tho ...

Yes, you're being childish and inconsistent. Did you take it to the extreme of "let 'em burn"? Let's roll tape:

My biggest point stands that you should not gripe about a situation so clearly a product of your choices (you join the armed forces, you end up having to serve in combat). That the cause of the war was a conjured up pot full of crap is NOT the point. Do not join if you don't like the possibility you will be ordered to do something in support of a possibly very bad idea or decision.-gja

According to your argument, if they made the choices, then they are TOTALLY and COMPLETELY responsible for said choices, and shouldn't be griping about them. If they do gripe, then " you should not gripe about a situation so clearly a product of your choices (you join the armed forces, you end up having to serve in combat) " When looking at that statement, I smell a bit of smoke, and you know what they say about smoke....

To address the strawman you so conveniently put out there, I never once insinuated that decisions by officers or NCOs should be put to a vote. Good ones will take additional counsel, information, and advice, but the ultimate decision is on the person giving the orders. However, when one enlists there is the assumption that one's life will not be considered carelessly. That's more than just cause for griping, and has gotten many a person removed from not only leadership positions, but from military service. I know, I've seen it. Hell, that's why the Inspector General office exists. In addition, didn't you say they have the choice, therefore bear responsibility for their actions. But then you state "But informed consent is not something one should expect in the military, where one is ORDERED to do something. " If someone is ORDERED to do something, choice is removed. So this guy should quit griping for something he was ordered to do, by someone he feels did not take due diligence in the decision-making process? In addition, the avenues you submitted in your black and white thinking, such as voting them out were not available? Again, is he supposed to retroactively vote against them? He did what he could, which was write this letter, which you are chastising him for.

In terms of my supposed naivete, slappy, let me put it to you this way. I've been there done that, and have the tshirt. I was in for 14 years. Numerous overseas training deployments, and a combat deployment to Baghdad, 04-05. What was your MOS?

remember what it was like to oppose the invasion 8, 9, 10 years ago? remember the things you were called (like clarke was)? remember the insanity of the jingoes? don't ever forget that folks, because they're still here and can't wait to do it all again, substituting iran or syria for iraq.

Kurmudgeon:lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.

That's the point. They don't actually promote Christian or American values.. but they sure make people think they do.

A guy outside a bar hands me and my friend each a gun, tells me 'the bar is full of evil people, now run in there and kill them'.

We nod, take the gun, run into the bar, and shoot the place up. Now 10 years later I'm complaining about the fact that seeing the dead bodies, and witnessing my buddy get shot traumatized me for life, plus I got shot when one of the bar patrons fired back.

Have sympathy for me.

If you let someone talk you into killing your fellow man, you deserve every ounce of misery you experience as a result.

So.... folks who volunteered for WWII deserve all the misery *they* get, right?

The worst attack on American soil happened. Plenty of people joined the military for various reasons, definitely with some economic push, but certainly to fight the person responsible for the attack. To make sure that didn't happen again. Instead, they got BS reasoning for going to war with an entirely unrelated country from their Commander in Chief.

You know what... don't take it from me. Go ahead to the American Legion and see if you can find a still alive WWII vet to tell that to. If you get out alive, congrats.

I'm an Egyptian!:gja: douchebag/hater: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Wrote that well-known atheist and socialist H.L. Mencken.

As for the article:This guy is blaming Bush and Cheney because he experienced the hazards of joining the military.

I remember a news story from years ago when a joined the Army and tried to get out when he found he was going to be deployed overseas; he said that's not why he enlisted.

No sympathy for the guy.

Yes. THIS^^^^

You join the armed forces then complain you have to go serve and maybe be in harms way? FAIL.Don't join! Our military has been voluntary-only for decades.

Damn skippy. That's why I don't think any of the veterans that volunteered for service should be eligible for VA services. They volunteered, and should live with the consequences. Besides, they'd get better care in the private market. Everyone knows that the government is inefficient when it comes to health care.

Nice troll, try harder.

/VA hospitals need so much work//also, any armed service-person who serves in combat should be exempted from fed taxes on income for life

Joe Blowme:FlashHarry: Joe Blowme: Funny, he does not speak for my vfw post of the millions given a chance at freedom... I wonder what those buried in mass graves by Sadam would say.

so when do we invade syria? when do we invade north korea? when do we invade iran? when do we invade zimbabwe?

if spending blood and treasure for "the millions given a chance at freedom" is the job of the united states, we're gonna be very busy for the foreseeable future.

better bring back the draft...

Maybe you should brush up on all the reasons for going in.

i was responding to you and the fact that you were justifying the war by pointing out that "millions [were] given a chance at freedom."

never mind that "liberating iraq" was not the primary rationale bush used to sell the war to the american people. rather, he conflated it with 9/11 and claimed that saddam had WMD that directly threatened the US and its allies -- both of which were lies.

I look back over the last 10 years and realize I fell for the lies. Our country was snookered and conned into supporting an unnecessary war. I have to live with that shame, but I'm the lucky one -- I don't have to live with the physical and emotional trauma our veterans have to endure. It's why I'll never vote for a politician who soundly beats the war drums ever again.

After reading that letter, I think I'd have simply written "Fark you!" and been done with it, but this letter was fantastic. The sad part is Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the rest of their ilk will never give a damn about what they've done. And it's times like these where I certainly hope there is a God who will properly judge them in the afterlife. They deserve nothing less.

gja:Alphax: gja: Alphax: gja: That is your opinion, you have a right to espouse it,

No, that wasn't opinion.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you are the Oracle and judge of all men!Let me retract my assertion that your thoughts/feelings are opinion and accept it as prima facia evidence with no need to qualify it whatsoever.(That's snark and sarcasm, for brevity's sake).

If Bush/Cheney go before a war trial, there will be a literal line of people who also need to follow suit. Not sure B.O. gets a 'PASS' by that qualification criteria.

You're wearing out your welcome fast.

Also, is that some sort of veiled threat?

Not a threat. But I've never seen you before this morning, and I'm already tired of you.

Funny, he does not speak for my vfw post of the millions given a chance at freedom... I wonder what those buried in mass graves by Sadam would say. Its ok, im sure there were a few veterans who did not like deposing Hitler either and they were drafted so I can kinda see their point.

gja:Hobodeluxe: gja: ReapTheChaos: "I write this letter on behalf of the 4,488 soldiers and Marines... I write this letter on behalf of husbands and wives..."

People who do things on others "behalf" should have to check with every last one of them to make sure they actually want them to do it or they should STFU.

/pet peeve.

My feelings as well. Please do not speak for me. I fall into a bunch of the categories he lumped all together. I thank and love him for his service, but my mouth and voice work perfectly well and I need nobody to speak for me. Believe me, I can be heard when I so desire.

And on that note, I hate ALL politicians equally. They are ALL excrement. Obama is particularly repugnant because he plays the "i'm a guy like you" bullcrap card (and to be fair there have been a few who postured in that manner over the years). Sorry, but a well-heeled, Harvard educated, lawyer from Chicago's better neighborhood has little in common with me, a struggling father of 1, living in an overpriced apartment and straining to make ends meet.

I'm pretty sure Obama is the first president who had to pay back student loans for his education. Who's mother was denied healthcare because they had no insurance.

Not salient to my point, but correct. My point is that he is NOT a 'common man' in any way shape of form. He has, by all accounts, a LOT more money and station in life than most of us. But that also goes for every 1%er

Well he does now. He wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth like all those before him.

sendtodave:Iraq gets many Like Vietnam Points due to the fiasco and false pretenses, but Afganistan might win out solely on the quagmire category.

Iraq is more „vietnamy" than afghanistan is though because of its just sheer derpitude from the get go.

Afghanistan wasn't a fools errand from the get go: it had broad international support, a good mandate, and if it had been persued with vigor and received the full attention of the Bush Administration after it was launched it could've succeeded. Might not've, but it had a chance at least.

Iraq never had a snowballs chance in hell at being anything other than a complete cluster fark. There was zero planning for what to do after the invasion had been completed, there was no broad support base amongst the international community (the token contributions made by the coalition of the willing were more about wanting to get or stay in Washington's good standing than in any real conviction or mandate), Bremer made enormous, irreconcilable mistakes from day 1... no chance. Just none.

lordaction:Obama has done nothing but expand the war and continue to eliminate civil liberties. The left showed themselves as the traitors they really are when the "anti-war" that were so vocal during the Bush years haven't been heard from since Obama took office.

The republicans have done something that is not reversible. Something so f*cking wrong and horrible that human beings will NEVER see the end of it.

You sent us to fight and die in Iraq after you, Mr. Cheney, dodged the draft in Vietnam, and you, Mr. Bush, went AWOL from your National Guard unit. Your cowardice and selfishness were established decades ago. You were not willing to risk yourselves for our nation but you sent hundreds of thousands of young men and women to be sacrificed in a senseless war with no more thought than it takes to put out the garbage.

keylock71:sendtodave: keylock71: in my mind, the Bush Administration bares the responsibility for all these lost lives. It was their decision to commit forces. It was their decision to invade a country half-assed with no defined victory conditions. Does that absolve the folks who allowed themselves to be led by their noses by the Bush Administration into a senseless war? No.

I wholly agree.

I just finished reading this book a few weeks back: To End All Wars

Obviously, it's about a completely different war in a completely different time, but the parallels between the run up to WWI and the Iraq War are interesting. Especially with regards to the way dissenting voices were treated.

Worth a read, if you're so inclined.

Even though I was blindly pro-war at the time, I always hated both sides using false analogies to justify their position on the war. The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place). I was equally irritated by the drumbeats in the pro-war camp equivocating Hussein with Hitler and trying to compare 2002-2003 to 1938-39 - as if Iraq was attempting to annex client states throughout the region and the rest of the world was trying to avoid another war of attrition brought on by monarchies subservient to their war ministers.

We tried to fight a 20th century war all over again; we were told (and he hoped) it was going to be the second round of Desert Storm. But that conflict in 1990-91 poisoned our understanding of war, and sadly I and a lot of other people didn't realize that until almost two years too late.

sex0r:lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Too late. It came in the form of "hope and change."

If you ever wondered how on earth a lying, drug-using, under-achieving, draft-dodging, illiterate, inarticulate, retarded faux-cowboy could ever get voted to the Presidency for one term, let alone two, all it takes is a voting bloc full of sex0rs.

Without Fail:Bartman66: Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's...

muck4doo:HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: Without Fail: muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

You hated how Bush spent so much, that you reelected him, didn't you?

A true Fark Independent!

Yeah maybe if we had a list of pre-approved "actual conservatives", we would know what real conservative thought is. We had to rely on conservative media telling us that Bush was the most conservative to ever conserve since Reagan. Joke is on us I guess.

You have TPM and Daily Kos telling you what Conservatives really think. Keep riding that tard train.

Sorry, I don't visit those sites.

Where is your list of approved conservatives? Put up or shut up. I'm happy to bury you with quotes from prominent conservative thought merchants praising Bush for his conservative credentials. Up until they realized they couldn't polish that turd at least. Then they decided he must be a liberal.

Really. That's what asshats like you sound like to the rest of the world.

You're so upset, honey.

You got rooked like the rest of your idiot brethren, it's ok to admit it.

Here you are, claiming that you hated his spending and that there is some cabal of "actual" conservatives that agree with you, but you can't seem to name any of them. In an attempt to cover this up, you're typing in some pidgin language trying to claim that everyone else are media dupes. You're a special little guy and we're all proud of you, but sometimes we worry you're not taking your medicine.

M11618:Alphax: M11618: Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in. No more Saddam, under him Iraq had no chance. At least it had a chance now. Hopefully no more state sanctioned rapes, murders, torture (and I mean real torture, acid, hooks, fire, etc, not water being dumped on your face). Iraqis thanked me for helping oust Saddam, I value their opinion over y'all's, most of who have never been with 8 thousand miles of Iraq.

What kind of mental block does it take to think that a country that's been invaded and occupied has less rape, murder, and torture than before?

Youre an idiot. Saddam ran rape rooms and torture camps, is he still their doing it now? I could have sworn they hung his ass. My understanding of the situation is now the government isn't hanging people from meat hook s and burning them with hot irons, nor are they shoving people feet first into wood chippers. But let's look at what's really important. You got to protest against Bush who you didn't like and now y get to feel smug about it. That's what's

M11618:Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in. No more Saddam, under him Iraq had no chance. At least it had a chance now. Hopefully no more state sanctioned rapes, murders, torture (and I mean real torture, acid, hooks, fire, etc, not water being dumped on your face). Iraqis thanked me for helping oust Saddam, I value their opinion over y'all's, most of who have never been with 8 thousand miles of Iraq.

What kind of mental block does it take to think that a country that's been invaded and occupied has less rape, murder, and torture than before?

Clemkadidlefark:Gee. A letter damning GWB and Cheney. Who coulda seen this coming. And from an outfit called TruthDig.

What did this guy think was going to happen? Tiddlywinks and ticker tape parades? Qar is hell and if you sign up to be a soldier, you are probably going to see the Hell.

A tug on the heart-strings moment means no one criticizes, but the issue of taking America into war deserves a lot more seriousness than a letter from a veteran, whose opinion is at odds with so many other veterans.

Generals gathered in their massesJust like witches at black massesEvil minds that plot destructionSorcerers of death's constructionIn the fields the bodies burningAs the war machine keeps turningDeath and hatred to mankindPoisoning their brainwashed mindsOh lord yeah!

Politicians hide themselves awayThey only started the warWhy should they go out to fight?They leave that role to the poor

Time will tell on their power mindsMaking war just for funTreating people just like pawns in chessWait 'til their judgement day comesYeah!

Now in darkness world stops turningAshes where the bodies burningNo more war pigs have the powerHand of God has struck the hourDay of judgement, God is callingOn their knees the war pig's crawlingBegging mercy for their sinsSatan laughing spreads his wingsOh lord yeah!

Yogimus:Or you are both right, and they are sides of the same coin? Of course, you probably contribute all the stuff done at a local level to the administration as opposed to the responsible people, but hey.... whatever works, so long as you get to play the victim, amirite?

Yes. The end result of communism and fascism is essentially the same. I know this because I have lived under military rule in pre-democracy Indonesia and also spent 2 years in the Soviet Union.

However, my original post was in response to Random's contention that Obama is more ideologically aligned with fascism than Bush. I don't think either of their ideologies come anywhere near fascism, but to say the Obama leans more that way than Bush is errant nonsense.

Gotta love the people that equally blame the democrats for Iraq. The audacity for of these people for believing the secretary of state and defense who and the intellegence agencies whoe fed them false information.I wish i could believe the republican would have taken a different stance if they had known the truth but recent history shows they are unswayed by facts.

Corn_Fed:Jim_Callahan:So, um, sorta like blaming two members of the executive branch for a war pretty much universally approved by congress and encouraged by several of our international allies for reasons confirmed by our own intelligence guys?

Um, yeah, just for review...

Those two members of the executive branch:

- dreamed it up- planned the war- promoted the war- sold the war to everyone else

Let's not whitewash the fact that it was ALL THEIR IDEA. They're completely responsible.

...as much as they have a lot of responsibility for it, they are not the only ones responsible. This took decades of planning by hundreds of people...guys like Bremer, Ridge, Ashcroft, Rove, many people who are still in the public eye today that you'd never expect, or forgot were part of it. It never began or ended with either Bush or Cheney. Hell, if 9/11 hadn't happened, these wars would likely not have happened, although there likely would've been another triggering event they could use...and many of the same people behind Iraq are waiting for yet another trigger event as an excuse to attack Iran and/or North Korea. And you know they'll get it eventually.

This is the world in which we live: Billionaire psychopaths send everyone but their kids into slavery or war - solely to increase their own wealth - and no one cares.

Yay! {8/

it's not that nobody cares, everyone cares about it, but we can't figure out what to do about it. sure, there's always the second amendment solution, but there's got to be a more peaceful, more permanent way to solve it or we are no better than mindless animals.

It is that nobody cares. There is the Declaration of Independence solution (and read the list of injuries and usurpations carefully--for at least thirteen years, both the President and Congress, irrespective of political affiliation, have been guilty of several items on that 237 year old list. Sometimes I have to remind myself that this was written by a man who's been dead for two centuries, not someone writing an op-ed for the NY Times Sunday paper) :

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures. He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offencesFor abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands. He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Oh that's right. You can't speak about the actual topic because you know you're wrong so you have to keep trying to change the subject.

Otherwise you would be killing women and children with obama with glee. Got it.

You are the most bleeding heart republican I have ever met.....getting upset over people dying in drone attacks? You probably have called for a " glass parking lot" or a "second amendment solution" yet you cry like a little biatch with a boo boo when a pussy socialist surgically kills some 'ferner./being a badass means always being a badass...no getting soft there tough guy

Wrong is wrong and murder is wrong no matter who is doing it. I've said it for years. Glad you love your new war mongering ways though. Go kill some more women and children with your murdering president. Blasting away brown people to freedom, yeah!

The most important lesson you will ever learn is the one that they just won't teach you in school: Nationalism blows all sorts of donkey cock. No child is born into this world waving a flag, we are indoctrinated with revisionist history and stirring ceremony. The sooner we unlearn these teachings the better off we are because we won't sign up to die for terribly executed principles.

kombi:Oh and this BS with if you supported the war. Your an idiot, Stupid, Dont think for your self. on and on and on. And if you where opposed to the war you are smart and forward thinking. Thats whats destroying this country. You could talk disagree and move on. Now if you disagree well you live in flyover country anyway so you dont matter. or well your a gun owner so you automatically are dumb and your opinion does not matter. Only the coast matter. We will tell you whats best. Cant we all just get along?

sendtodave:Japan attacked us, and so we went after Hitler. We were seen as heroes.

Some mujahideen attacked us, and so we went after Saddam. Not so much.

But in any case, you rile up the American people, and it doesn't matter the target.

So, maybe he was descriminate when he knee-jerk joined the military. But, if he was typical, he was pro-war when he signed up, not just pro-war in Afganistan.

Japan attacked us, then Germany declared war in us. It's not even remotely comparable.

As for him being "pro-war" in general, that's one big ass assumption about him, and everyone else who has ever been in the military. It's not only possible, but reasonable, to support the war in Afghanistan and not Iraq.

Alphax:I'm not sure why a military response was felt to be appropriate after 9/11.. though it's what bin Laden wanted to happen. Even during 9/11, it seemed like the work of a James Bond villain. So, send in the superspies, right?

Corn_Fed:Jim_Callahan:So, um, sorta like blaming two members of the executive branch for a war pretty much universally approved by congress and encouraged by several of our international allies for reasons confirmed by our own intelligence guys?

Um, yeah, just for review...

Those two members of the executive branch:

- dreamed it up- planned the war- promoted the war- sold the war to everyone else

Let's not whitewash the fact that it was ALL THEIR IDEA. They're completely responsible.

lolpix:brukmann: Exactly. You're describing a normal POTUS vs. war criminals. There is no real comparison. Not that it's apples to oranges, that it's 1000:1 on the bullshiat scale. But thanks for insulting me by suggesting i'm a starry-eyed moron. Which, btw, i have found in exactly zero Obama supporters, as it is another right-wing fantasy.

If that's a normal President, we're an inherently evil nation. Most of the rest of what you just said is kind of garbled.

If people can't see the obvious differences between Bush and Obama, it doesn't matter if we're evil since we're going down anyway.

kombi:SO when British Intelligence told us about the WMD's. Gee Syria just launched chemical weapons today. And when these fake WMD's where shipped to the US via canada for destruction in the middle of the night. That was all faked? Listen the intelligence may not have been 100% but it still worked. Anyway we put Saddam in there, WE needed to remove him

Even a lot of conservatives have come to hate Bush and Cheney. But the fact that this guy served his country, got horribly injured and will end up dying because of it means he's not a real American? It's morons like you that make Fark entertaining, whether you're trolling or serious. Either way, you come off looking really stupid and your party affiliation may have something to do with that.

Whether you take obvious sarcasm at face value, or think it's just trolling, you come off looking really stupid and your party affiliation may have something to do with that.

Even a lot of conservatives have come to hate Bush and Cheney. But the fact that this guy served his country, got horribly injured and will end up dying because of it means he's not a real American? It's morons like you that make Fark entertaining, whether you're trolling or serious. Either way, you come off looking really stupid and your party affiliation may have something to do with that.

Corn_Fed:They had the records, they had the evidence, but the intelligence agencies were generally too paranoid to listen to reason.

The intelligence was being massaged to fit the Bush narrative. Our intelligence came mainly from Chalabi-connected defectors like Curveball who was a known liar. Even the Germans who picked him up thought his intel was bullshait.

brukmann:Exactly. You're describing a normal POTUS vs. war criminals. There is no real comparison. Not that it's apples to oranges, that it's 1000:1 on the bullshiat scale. But thanks for insulting me by suggesting i'm a starry-eyed moron. Which, btw, i have found in exactly zero Obama supporters, as it is another right-wing fantasy.

If that's a normal President, we're an inherently evil nation. Most of the rest of what you just said is kind of garbled.

violentsalvation:That's the thing though, you didn't know, you were opposing Bush and Cheney for your own partisan reasons and / or you hate and oppose any war.

Nah, I don't think that was true at the time. Yeah, I GREW to hate Bush & Cheney but that was their doing, not mine. I wasn't out opposing Afghanistan; I think most Americans were dying to find Bin Laden after 9/11. But a lot of us got pretty upset how they mined that sentiment for their own private war, and let gullible Americans who needed SOMETHING after that terrible day to lead the charge.

I never knew I was a liberal until I was out standing in the rain. Mostly I always just thought I mocked everyone up until that time.

muck4doo:Sorry, didn't realize i spent years on fark arguing for it. But forget all that, time to wipe out people with differing views! It's the Confabulat way.

I have exactly three Farkers color coded in some sort of "favorited" way. One is an old friend, another doesn't post here anymore, and there's you who I have labeled in red as "right-wing war cultist."

Are you revising your own history now to better fit the present? Sounds typical of losers. There weren't a lot of Nazis in Germany after the Allies won either. And the Commies got awful quiet after the Soviet Union dissolved.

You'd think people would own up to their own opinions, but I guess no one likes knowing they are an idiot.

Confabulat:Every American who supported that nonsense war and fell for their bullshiat, when it was plenty obvious even at the time there were major holes in their story, needs to apologize.

I farkin' stood out in the rain with an anti-war sign in traffic. I never do shiat like that but I knew bullshiat when I saw it.

What was your excuse?

That's the thing though, you didn't know, you were opposing Bush and Cheney for your own partisan reasons and / or you hate and oppose any war. The latter I respect much more than the former, but I respect them both. Intelligence organizations around the world were in agreement with our own, you weren't some genius out there in the rain protesting, your gut feeling was just.. well, right. I'll apologize to you, I'm sorry you got wet out there holding that sign accomplishing nothing.

So you join the military. Get sick. Now pissed that you where expected to fight im a military action because well you joined the military. So today's military is just the post office. A bunch of guys that dont want to work. Dont want to do the job they volunteered for. Pick and choose what orders to follow. Well its definitely an example of the past few generations. Im sorry your sick. Im sorry your going out this way. I know your mad this is the way your going out. But grow a pair.

And get over it. This has been Obama war for what 5 years now. Has he pulled all the troops out no. And this war crimes crap needs to go away.

Confabulat:muck4doo: pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

Better idea, arrest all republicans! They stand in our way of the brave new world we want to bring!

You mean smart people? You're right, smart people do have a dream of a world not overrun with drooling suckers such as yourself.

muck4doo:pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

Better idea, arrest all republicans! They stand in our way of the brave new world we want to bring!

You mean smart people? You're right, smart people do have a dream of a world not overrun with drooling suckers such as yourself.

muck4doo:pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

hurrr hurrr hurrr yeah!

I bet you STILL think you were right in supporting the war, don't you, sucker. Politicians count on people like you.

pkt729:I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

Better idea, arrest all republicans! They stand in our way of the brave new world we want to bring!

As if there was any comparison. Sheesh. Jimmy Carter was probably more of a war criminal.

Obama's administration is worse than Bush's in some ways. They are more prone to prosecuting whistle blowers, decline to prosecute bankers (HSBC) who wittingly launder money for drug cartels and Iran (Iran!), routinely seek to extend and expand the NDAA, expand drone warfare and so-called lily-pad bases to carry out extra-judicial killings and assassinations on their own authority throughout the Middle East and Africa. Obama is cool because he thinks you should have access to health insurance and everyone should quit picking on the gays. On the other hand, a few years ago he went to India as part of a trade PR tour and his personal guest of honor was the CEO of the company that makes the back scatter x-ray machines for use in air ports. In short, don't kid yourself. Obama is charming, but he's not a good guy.

Generation_D:When do the easily deluded, easily conned followers get their share of the blame/credit for the military debacles of history?

Never. Its always those poor noble men and women who were led astray.

I wonder what you get out of framing it this way. Even I knew in 2003 invading Iraq was stupid; just about everyone I knew and talked to at the time did. But somehow, there were people in my group of friends who joined anyway. Apparently their reasoning is not something you are capable of understanding and in fact feel the need to crap on.... which frankly says more about you than them.

Corn_Fed:The true irony, and legacy, of the Iraq War is that if it had never happened, and Saddam were still there, the geo-political dynamic would be completely the same.

It might not. Saddam was working to create a new oil bourse that moved oil trading off the U.S. dollar. This could have possibly destabilized American currency at a time when the dollar was very strong but stocks were highly over valued when compared to liquid assets. Iran has been trying to do the same since around 2004 or 2005, which is the principle reason we're so antagonistic to them. Iran's nuclear program, much like Iraq's earlier chemical weapon and rocket program, aren't considered realistic threats by most public reporting intelligence agencies. Moving oil off the dollar, on the other hand, would be a big problem for us.

He had me up until he said: "I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. "

So, he was making a major life decision based on a knee-jerk reaction to which he had no real information on other than the flurry of media info at the time. Then he got sent off to the admittedly wrong war, and now wants to biatch about it?

Here's an idea. Maybe wait more than 48 hours after a national tragedy so that you can get your emotions in check before deciding to sign your life away to the military to avenge something you really have no clue about at the time.

Corn_Fed:HideAndGoFarkYourself: Ok, this WMD stuff is straight up ridiculous.

Hussein had some funky shiat, he gassed the Kurds in Halabja in March of 1988. He killed 182,000 in Al-Anfal from '86-'89, some of that from Chemical attacks.

Were they WMD's in iraq in 2003? Probably. Were they in the area's the Government painted as WMD silos, plants, etc. Clearly not.

Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Either way, Bush 1.0 should have stayed in Iraq initially, fought through to Baghdad, and killed or captured Hussein. Bush 2.0 always seemed to be trying to finish daddy's work.

You don't know your history. We already know what happened to Saddam's 1980's stocks of WMD's. Sadddam's brother-in-law, Hussain Kamel was in charge of them. 1996, as the UN inspectors were closing in, he was ordered to take all the stockpiles into the desert and blow them up. He did.

Later, when the UN inspectors found this out, and investigated, they found the pits with the blown-up ordance and chemicals. But because there is no way to totally count weapons after they've been destroyed, the inspectors couldn't be sure if this represented ALL the old weapons.

But the Duelfor Report, ordered by Bush after the invasion, makes it clear: Saddam had no WMD's left by 2003.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. Bush Jr didn't need a legal reason, he already had that. Saddam postured and willingly violated every order by the UN because he wanted to look strong. Regardless of the fact that he had nothing, he postured like he had something. The only thing Bush Jr needed to do was sell it to the public, which he did. There aren't any war crime trials because the war itself is legally justified by the UN stipulations

once Obama took office Bush was absolved of all of this, this is Obama's Iraq, Obama's recession, Obama's debt, and Obama's America and the Republicans could've let you all off the hook and came in and took over, and set this country on the right track, but Romney declined the Presidency after winning 313 electoral votes, because the only reason he was running was to show that he could win even while barely trying, intentionally making an idiot out of himself multiple times, and in general making a mockery of the whole process, so enjoy your final 4 years of the punishment the Republicans have given you, we'll come make it all better in 2016, if you deserve it.

Wait, have I entered the rainbows and unicorn thread? NO? May a pox on Bush/Cheney emerge immediately. They threw our kids against this from the get-go. F*ck them and those policies. Just in case you think I care, Obama is the same F*cking policy....likely worse. Good luck you folks fighting on the front lines of some craptastular effort......

So being wounded in Bush/Cheney's cash grab for Haliburton makes you a traitor?

You really are one of the worst excuses for a "human" on the internet. I don't even care that I'm falling for your troll. You are a piece of shiat. I would throw away the shoe that stepped on your steaming, parasite filled steaming pile.

This is the world in which we live: Billionaire psychopaths send everyone but their kids into slavery or war - solely to increase their own wealth - and no one cares.

Yay! {8/

This man volunteered, this was not a draft. Repeatedly he shows in the letter he is unwilling/unable to accept that he alone is responsible for his own actions. I in no way defend Bush, Cheney or any other scumbag politician or Daddy Warbucks factory owning family.