Plans for huge Jehovah's HQ take shape

PLANS for a huge Jehovah’s Witness “commune” on the outskirts of Chelmsford are gathering pace.

The International Bible Students Association, the charity which manages Jehovah’s Witnesses’ printing and literature distribution, wants to create a new British headquarters.

The 82-acre site (about 15 football pitches) at Temple Farm site, off Ship Road, West Hanningfield.

The plans include a printery - producing Bible-based literature - admin and language translation ofﬁces, video and sound production studios, an auditorium, training centre and workshops all on site.

Plus there will be one and two bedroom apartments - for up to 1,200 residents and visitors - along with onsite caterers, laundrettes and healthcare facilities.

The site would also have its own energy centre - making it self-sufficient - and a new access road would also be built from Temple Wood.

A resident from Stock, 60, who didn’t want to be named, said: “It’s all a bit Sci-fi if you ask me. It’s a very unusual development, a commune really. I wouldn’t say I was against it as it is all a bit of a mess at that site at the moment.”

The land, currently occupied by a car breakers yard, was removed from the green belt by Chelmsford City Council in 2008 and earmarked for employment use.

IBSA agreed to buy the land from its current owners in December, as long as they get planning permission for the project. The deal is expected to exceed £10million. The council did not confirm who the current land owners were.

Colin Massey, from CSM Consultancies for the developers, was speaking at public meetings in West Hanningfield and Stock at the weekend.

He said: “The management of historic contamination, and enhanced public footpaths through the countryside are just two positive benefits.

“A few understandable concerns were raised, such as traffic implications, design of buildings etc but most visitors were reassured when they were able to study and discuss actual details of the proposals.

“The reaction of the overwhelming majority of visitors was very positive.”

In January, Michael Bowers of ASB Skips was £6,000 fined by Chelmsford Magistrates for running illegal waste sites on the land and there is a history of enforcement notices served on previous owners.

In a letter to the council, IBSA said the land was “likely” to be contaminated.

IBSA’s headquarters is currently located in Mill Hill, North London. The charity sais it had chosen Temple Farm for its new home because it has “excellent transport links and is set in a beautiful rural location”.

--------------------------------------------------

A COUNCILLOR said plans for the live/work centre will improve the area - and that Jehovah’s Witnesses will make great neighbours.

Michael Harris, the Conservative ward councillor for Bicknacre, East and West Hanningfield, said: “I believe this development will make a huge, favourable difference to the area. It’s been a dreadful site for some time.

“There will be some areas of concern, but I would like to see this put in place as soon as possible.”

He added that the Jehovah’s Witnesses will make great neighbours. He said: “Before I retired, I worked for a construction company and these people were our corporate neighbours and they were always superb.”

Comments (40)

a) Literal truth of the Bible - err not!! So that means they hate science.
b)Anti abortion
c) Against sex before marriage (includes petting and such like)
d) Against unchaperoned dates
e) Against homosexuality
f) Against smoking
g) Against birthday celebrations ( I mean really!!)
h) Against blood transfusions (yes, they are so nutty they prefer to die)..

And so on

You get the idea - they are a weird cult. What would established is a village with no interaction with anyone else.

Depressing - the JW are a seriously mad cult. This should be stopped.
Beliefs -
a) Literal truth of the Bible - err not!! So that means they hate science.
b)Anti abortion
c) Against sex before marriage (includes petting and such like)
d) Against unchaperoned dates
e) Against homosexuality
f) Against smoking
g) Against birthday celebrations ( I mean really!!)
h) Against blood transfusions (yes, they are so nutty they prefer to die)..
And so on
You get the idea - they are a weird cult. What would established is a village with no interaction with anyone else.Jack222

They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.

They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.

They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.

They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.

They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.
They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.
They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.
They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.jonzawonza

Jack222 wrote:
Depressing - the JW are a seriously mad cult. This should be stopped.

Beliefs -

a) Literal truth of the Bible - err not!! So that means they hate science.
b)Anti abortion
c) Against sex before marriage (includes petting and such like)
d) Against unchaperoned dates
e) Against homosexuality
f) Against smoking
g) Against birthday celebrations ( I mean really!!)
h) Against blood transfusions (yes, they are so nutty they prefer to die)..

And so on

You get the idea - they are a weird cult. What would established is a village with no interaction with anyone else.

wow! Jack222, you are seriously misled. Your opinions are horrendously and embarrassingly incorrect. where did you get your opinions?! i don't have time now to give you clear facts - but if you want to know why your opinions are so out of kilter with reality and to give you fact not hearsay check out www.jw.org for true information.
Science is not hated - science is embraced when research and findings are correct.
All Jehovah's Witnesses do is view life as God does, not imperfect mankind with its ever changing philosophies.
By the way, 'against blood transfusions'?!?! yes, but you should do research before trolling these sites - the US military for one is now doing surgery using techniques used by the Witnesses to avoid blood transfusion - JW's do not prefer to die, they prefer to use the best medical treatment available.
Please open your eyes heart and mind and don't repeat nonsense.

[quote][p][bold]Jack222[/bold] wrote:
Depressing - the JW are a seriously mad cult. This should be stopped.
Beliefs -
a) Literal truth of the Bible - err not!! So that means they hate science.
b)Anti abortion
c) Against sex before marriage (includes petting and such like)
d) Against unchaperoned dates
e) Against homosexuality
f) Against smoking
g) Against birthday celebrations ( I mean really!!)
h) Against blood transfusions (yes, they are so nutty they prefer to die)..
And so on
You get the idea - they are a weird cult. What would established is a village with no interaction with anyone else.[/p][/quote]wow! Jack222, you are seriously misled. Your opinions are horrendously and embarrassingly incorrect. where did you get your opinions?! i don't have time now to give you clear facts - but if you want to know why your opinions are so out of kilter with reality and to give you fact not hearsay check out www.jw.org for true information.
Science is not hated - science is embraced when research and findings are correct.
All Jehovah's Witnesses do is view life as God does, not imperfect mankind with its ever changing philosophies.
By the way, 'against blood transfusions'?!?! yes, but you should do research before trolling these sites - the US military for one is now doing surgery using techniques used by the Witnesses to avoid blood transfusion - JW's do not prefer to die, they prefer to use the best medical treatment available.
Please open your eyes heart and mind and don't repeat nonsense.ADIC69

jonzawonza wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.

They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.

They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.

They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.

Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.

● “This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.

● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.

Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.

[quote][p][bold]jonzawonza[/bold] wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.
They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.
They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.
They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.[/p][/quote]Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.
● “This people honor me [God] with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.
● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.
Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.ADIC69

jonzawonza wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.

They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.

They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.

They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.

Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.

● “This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.

● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.

Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.

I have been to many meetings and I have heard the hate speech how all other religions are a part of "babylon the great" in other words the 'beast' and all worship satan and demons.

You do shun former members.
You lie about your core doctrines until you get people in.

Have you read the Shepard the flock of God book? The secret elder handbook where elders are told to drop matters unless there was two witnesses to an allegation.

Look up on your CD-ROM WT library about the issue of rape. How women who were raped and didn't scream would be disfellowshipped and then shunned. Or 1975. How they have 8 false prophesies since it's formation.

jwfacts.com has all the information you need on this high control dangerous cult. I've checked for myself all the quotes on that site are all correct.

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]jonzawonza[/bold] wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.
They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.
They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.
They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.[/p][/quote]Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.
● “This people honor me [God] with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.
● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.
Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.[/p][/quote]I have been to many meetings and I have heard the hate speech how all other religions are a part of "babylon the great" in other words the 'beast' and all worship satan and demons.
You do shun former members.
You lie about your core doctrines until you get people in.
Have you read the Shepard the flock of God book? The secret elder handbook where elders are told to drop matters unless there was two witnesses to an allegation.
Look up on your CD-ROM WT library about the issue of rape. How women who were raped and didn't scream would be disfellowshipped and then shunned. Or 1975. How they have 8 false prophesies since it's formation.
jwfacts.com has all the information you need on this high control dangerous cult. I've checked for myself all the quotes on that site are all correct.jonzawonza

jonzawonza wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.

They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.

They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.

They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.

Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.

● “This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.

● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.

Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.

I have been to many meetings and I have heard the hate speech how all other religions are a part of &quot;babylon the great" in other words the 'beast' and all worship satan and demons.

You do shun former members.
You lie about your core doctrines until you get people in.

Have you read the Shepard the flock of God book? The secret elder handbook where elders are told to drop matters unless there was two witnesses to an allegation.

Look up on your CD-ROM WT library about the issue of rape. How women who were raped and didn't scream would be disfellowshipped and then shunned. Or 1975. How they have 8 false prophesies since it's formation.

jwfacts.com has all the information you need on this high control dangerous cult. I've checked for myself all the quotes on that site are all correct.

again Jonzawonza i refer you to what Jesus said about true and false religion. If you had a firm conviction for the Truth wouldn't you despise lies and falsehoods? any disliking is aimed at the leaders of false religions not the parishioners or members. listen carefully at the meetings.

those who oppose the Truth having been baptised will be asked to leave to keep the cong clean - there is sound scriptural reason for it.

all your accusations are ancient not current - Jehovah's Witnesses accept clearly that they are infallible - they are human! imperfect. errors are admitted. alterations and adjustments are made - again scripture shows the light getting brighter will reveal better information.

put away your prejudices please from a long time ago.

slavery was rife in many nations for centuries - now it's abolished. would you agree that it was a terrible thing to have slavery? do you believe that the governments responsible for authorising slavery were high control dangerous cults? ...................

your grievances show a bitterness - am sorry about that. As my non believing step son says 'the Witnesses are not perfect but they are the only religion that is anywhere near the right one. the rest are woefully incorrect'.

[quote][p][bold]jonzawonza[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]jonzawonza[/bold] wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.
They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.
They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.
They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.[/p][/quote]Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.
● “This people honor me [God] with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.
● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.
Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.[/p][/quote]I have been to many meetings and I have heard the hate speech how all other religions are a part of "babylon the great" in other words the 'beast' and all worship satan and demons.
You do shun former members.
You lie about your core doctrines until you get people in.
Have you read the Shepard the flock of God book? The secret elder handbook where elders are told to drop matters unless there was two witnesses to an allegation.
Look up on your CD-ROM WT library about the issue of rape. How women who were raped and didn't scream would be disfellowshipped and then shunned. Or 1975. How they have 8 false prophesies since it's formation.
jwfacts.com has all the information you need on this high control dangerous cult. I've checked for myself all the quotes on that site are all correct.[/p][/quote]again Jonzawonza i refer you to what Jesus said about true and false religion. If you had a firm conviction for the Truth wouldn't you despise lies and falsehoods? any disliking is aimed at the leaders of false religions not the parishioners or members. listen carefully at the meetings.
those who oppose the Truth having been baptised will be asked to leave to keep the cong clean - there is sound scriptural reason for it.
all your accusations are ancient not current - Jehovah's Witnesses accept clearly that they are infallible - they are human! imperfect. errors are admitted. alterations and adjustments are made - again scripture shows the light getting brighter will reveal better information.
put away your prejudices please from a long time ago.
slavery was rife in many nations for centuries - now it's abolished. would you agree that it was a terrible thing to have slavery? do you believe that the governments responsible for authorising slavery were high control dangerous cults? ...................
your grievances show a bitterness - am sorry about that. As my non believing step son says 'the Witnesses are not perfect but they are the only religion that is anywhere near the right one. the rest are woefully incorrect'.ADIC69

Christians love to claim the Bible was written over 1600 years.That would be great but unfortunately nothing suggests it's true.Most educated people know most of the Old Testament was written during Babylonian captivity.So those “prophecies" are written after the fact.The Jesus “prophecies" can EASILY be the work of morons scrolling through old testament and taking verses out of context to make it seem more authentic.

Today I could write a book claiming to be George Washington.An archeologist in 2000 years dates it as 2014.Would you still believe it's George Washington?See...ver
y easy to “claim" to be a person after the fact.

The Mosaic Law could not have been written by Moses, because writing was largely unknown at that time and because the law code of the Pentateuch was too sophisticated for that period. But the codified Laws of Hammurabi (ca. 1700 B.C.), the Lipit-Ishtar code (ca. 1860 B.C.), the Laws of Eshnunna (ca. 1950 B.C.), and the even earlier Ur-Nammu code have refuted these claims.
There is no doubt that the writers borrowed from these myths and others as the bible only goes back to 200bc while these myths are thousands of years older(1100bc+).

Christians love to claim the Bible was written over 1600 years.That would be great but unfortunately nothing suggests it's true.Most educated people know most of the Old Testament was written during Babylonian captivity.So those “prophecies" are written after the fact.The Jesus “prophecies" can EASILY be the work of morons scrolling through old testament and taking verses out of context to make it seem more authentic.
Today I could write a book claiming to be George Washington.An archeologist in 2000 years dates it as 2014.Would you still believe it's George Washington?See...ver
y easy to “claim" to be a person after the fact.
Why don't Christians ever theorize why there's never been bible manuscripts older than 200B.C?
The Mosaic Law could not have been written by Moses, because writing was largely unknown at that time and because the law code of the Pentateuch was too sophisticated for that period. But the codified Laws of Hammurabi (ca. 1700 B.C.), the Lipit-Ishtar code (ca. 1860 B.C.), the Laws of Eshnunna (ca. 1950 B.C.), and the even earlier Ur-Nammu code have refuted these claims.
There is no doubt that the writers borrowed from these myths and others as the bible only goes back to 200bc while these myths are thousands of years older(1100bc+).jw.org

jonzawonza wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.

They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.

They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.

They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.

Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.

● “This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.

● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.

Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.

I have been to many meetings and I have heard the hate speech how all other religions are a part of &quot;babylon the great" in other words the 'beast' and all worship satan and demons.

You do shun former members.
You lie about your core doctrines until you get people in.

Have you read the Shepard the flock of God book? The secret elder handbook where elders are told to drop matters unless there was two witnesses to an allegation.

Look up on your CD-ROM WT library about the issue of rape. How women who were raped and didn't scream would be disfellowshipped and then shunned. Or 1975. How they have 8 false prophesies since it's formation.

jwfacts.com has all the information you need on this high control dangerous cult. I've checked for myself all the quotes on that site are all correct.

again Jonzawonza i refer you to what Jesus said about true and false religion. If you had a firm conviction for the Truth wouldn't you despise lies and falsehoods? any disliking is aimed at the leaders of false religions not the parishioners or members. listen carefully at the meetings.

those who oppose the Truth having been baptised will be asked to leave to keep the cong clean - there is sound scriptural reason for it.

all your accusations are ancient not current - Jehovah's Witnesses accept clearly that they are infallible - they are human! imperfect. errors are admitted. alterations and adjustments are made - again scripture shows the light getting brighter will reveal better information.

put away your prejudices please from a long time ago.

slavery was rife in many nations for centuries - now it's abolished. would you agree that it was a terrible thing to have slavery? do you believe that the governments responsible for authorising slavery were high control dangerous cults? ...................

your grievances show a bitterness - am sorry about that. As my non believing step son says 'the Witnesses are not perfect but they are the only religion that is anywhere near the right one. the rest are woefully incorrect'.

So if their imperfect and infallible why are you following them??...why are you believing what they say that God speaks through them?...why are you supporting the notion that God is guiding them or that's his organisation?...its stupid to say that you accept the downfall of men but will just at other occasions accept their claims to be spokesmen of God!....if God is what you say he is then logic says that he won't be giving people misinformation, lies or half truths that can wreck peoples lives or change their beliefs.

If an engineer that constantly designs faulty planes that have killed millions of humans, you wouldn't be jumping on to his planes and saying "oh his just human he will improve". You will expect that there are no flaws in the design as its a matter of life or death.

So don't come here defending the BS of a fallacy of allowing humans to be complacent but at the same time claim that they are perfectly ordained by God!

If he can get the creation of the universe correct on the first go, i'm sure he could do so the same with the information he gives humans.

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]jonzawonza[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]jonzawonza[/bold] wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.
They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.
They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.
They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.[/p][/quote]Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.
● “This people honor me [God] with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.
● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.
Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.[/p][/quote]I have been to many meetings and I have heard the hate speech how all other religions are a part of "babylon the great" in other words the 'beast' and all worship satan and demons.
You do shun former members.
You lie about your core doctrines until you get people in.
Have you read the Shepard the flock of God book? The secret elder handbook where elders are told to drop matters unless there was two witnesses to an allegation.
Look up on your CD-ROM WT library about the issue of rape. How women who were raped and didn't scream would be disfellowshipped and then shunned. Or 1975. How they have 8 false prophesies since it's formation.
jwfacts.com has all the information you need on this high control dangerous cult. I've checked for myself all the quotes on that site are all correct.[/p][/quote]again Jonzawonza i refer you to what Jesus said about true and false religion. If you had a firm conviction for the Truth wouldn't you despise lies and falsehoods? any disliking is aimed at the leaders of false religions not the parishioners or members. listen carefully at the meetings.
those who oppose the Truth having been baptised will be asked to leave to keep the cong clean - there is sound scriptural reason for it.
all your accusations are ancient not current - Jehovah's Witnesses accept clearly that they are infallible - they are human! imperfect. errors are admitted. alterations and adjustments are made - again scripture shows the light getting brighter will reveal better information.
put away your prejudices please from a long time ago.
slavery was rife in many nations for centuries - now it's abolished. would you agree that it was a terrible thing to have slavery? do you believe that the governments responsible for authorising slavery were high control dangerous cults? ...................
your grievances show a bitterness - am sorry about that. As my non believing step son says 'the Witnesses are not perfect but they are the only religion that is anywhere near the right one. the rest are woefully incorrect'.[/p][/quote]So if their imperfect and infallible why are you following them??...why are you believing what they say that God speaks through them?...why are you supporting the notion that God is guiding them or that's his organisation?...its stupid to say that you accept the downfall of men but will just at other occasions accept their claims to be spokesmen of God!....if God is what you say he is then logic says that he won't be giving people misinformation, lies or half truths that can wreck peoples lives or change their beliefs.
If an engineer that constantly designs faulty planes that have killed millions of humans, you wouldn't be jumping on to his planes and saying "oh his just human he will improve". You will expect that there are no flaws in the design as its a matter of life or death.
So don't come here defending the BS of a fallacy of allowing humans to be complacent but at the same time claim that they are perfectly ordained by God!
If he can get the creation of the universe correct on the first go, i'm sure he could do so the same with the information he gives humans.jw.org

The Jehovah's Witnesses have one or two positive achievements. They are very good at PR. Thus this Doomsday cult, this grubby little corner of Christendom, can present itself as an earnest bunch of Christians and even get itself registered as a charity and thus enjoy all the tax advantages.

They have also mastered the dark arts of cult mind control. Thus their members, those who still believe, rather than simply go through the motions through fear of being shunned, are genuinely convinced that the cult's bosses, in New York, are God's sole earthly representative.

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. It was the worst aspect of my childhood by far. I was fortunate, in that many of my family were not members so escape was easy.

I hope those councillors and others who commend the manners of the JWs know what the JWs think of them. JWs are tuaght to believe that the entire population of the world deserves an imminent Armageddon death penalty for the capital crime of non Kingdom Hall attendance, and failure to devote all spare time to the unpaid distribution of JW literature.

Beyond becoming adept at cult mind control, some other JW 'achievements' need to be listed. Thousands have suffered unnecessary death through the ban on blood transfusions. Families have been wrecked throught the edicts on shunning and pedophiles are protected via the 2 witness rule.

I hope that Chelmsfor City Council will decide it wants nothing to do with this sinister, obscene and destructive little outfit.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have one or two positive achievements. They are very good at PR. Thus this Doomsday cult, this grubby little corner of Christendom, can present itself as an earnest bunch of Christians and even get itself registered as a charity and thus enjoy all the tax advantages.
They have also mastered the dark arts of cult mind control. Thus their members, those who still believe, rather than simply go through the motions through fear of being shunned, are genuinely convinced that the cult's bosses, in New York, are God's sole earthly representative.
I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. It was the worst aspect of my childhood by far. I was fortunate, in that many of my family were not members so escape was easy.
I hope those councillors and others who commend the manners of the JWs know what the JWs think of them. JWs are tuaght to believe that the entire population of the world deserves an imminent Armageddon death penalty for the capital crime of non Kingdom Hall attendance, and failure to devote all spare time to the unpaid distribution of JW literature.
Beyond becoming adept at cult mind control, some other JW 'achievements' need to be listed. Thousands have suffered unnecessary death through the ban on blood transfusions. Families have been wrecked throught the edicts on shunning and pedophiles are protected via the 2 witness rule.
I hope that Chelmsfor City Council will decide it wants nothing to do with this sinister, obscene and destructive little outfit.NelRow 23

Humans have been imperfect since Adam.
The Governing Body do not claim to be perfect men.
Jehovah can still guide and protect imperfect men.
If Jehovah is not guiding the Witnesses then who is he guiding? - i have researched numerous religions including atheism and catholicism and these are woefully short when it comes to living up to the Bible's principles.

i feel your anger in the words you use ('stupid', 'don't come here') but won't rise to your bait.

As i have said earlier and over and over, we come to an understanding on scripture as the light becomes brighter. God does not give lies misinfo or halftruths - it is the imperfection of man in interpreting the info correctly until it becomes correct.

JWs do not (again!!) claim to be perfect - JWs strive to live by Bible principles.

Again, and to repeat, no one human is infallible, or perfect. fact. why am i following what the Witnesses teach? because they teach from God's Word which is inerrant. They follow what the 1st century followers of Christ did. anyone else doing that? i thought not!

i read your opinions and thoughts and smile as I see me writing those things 10 years ago when i was an angry young man with no Bible knowledge but full of education and belief in human philosophy.

Humans have been imperfect since Adam.
The Governing Body do not claim to be perfect men.
Jehovah can still guide and protect imperfect men.
If Jehovah is not guiding the Witnesses then who is he guiding? - i have researched numerous religions including atheism and catholicism and these are woefully short when it comes to living up to the Bible's principles.
i feel your anger in the words you use ('stupid', 'don't come here') but won't rise to your bait.
As i have said earlier and over and over, we come to an understanding on scripture as the light becomes brighter. God does not give lies misinfo or halftruths - it is the imperfection of man in interpreting the info correctly until it becomes correct.
JWs do not (again!!) claim to be perfect - JWs strive to live by Bible principles.
Again, and to repeat, no one human is infallible, or perfect. fact. why am i following what the Witnesses teach? because they teach from God's Word which is inerrant. They follow what the 1st century followers of Christ did. anyone else doing that? i thought not!
i read your opinions and thoughts and smile as I see me writing those things 10 years ago when i was an angry young man with no Bible knowledge but full of education and belief in human philosophy.ADIC69

jonzawonza wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.

They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.

They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.

They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.

Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.

● “This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.

● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.

Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.

I have been to many meetings and I have heard the hate speech how all other religions are a part of &quot;babylon the great" in other words the 'beast' and all worship satan and demons.

You do shun former members.
You lie about your core doctrines until you get people in.

Have you read the Shepard the flock of God book? The secret elder handbook where elders are told to drop matters unless there was two witnesses to an allegation.

Look up on your CD-ROM WT library about the issue of rape. How women who were raped and didn't scream would be disfellowshipped and then shunned. Or 1975. How they have 8 false prophesies since it's formation.

jwfacts.com has all the information you need on this high control dangerous cult. I've checked for myself all the quotes on that site are all correct.

again Jonzawonza i refer you to what Jesus said about true and false religion. If you had a firm conviction for the Truth wouldn't you despise lies and falsehoods? any disliking is aimed at the leaders of false religions not the parishioners or members. listen carefully at the meetings.

those who oppose the Truth having been baptised will be asked to leave to keep the cong clean - there is sound scriptural reason for it.

all your accusations are ancient not current - Jehovah's Witnesses accept clearly that they are infallible - they are human! imperfect. errors are admitted. alterations and adjustments are made - again scripture shows the light getting brighter will reveal better information.

put away your prejudices please from a long time ago.

slavery was rife in many nations for centuries - now it's abolished. would you agree that it was a terrible thing to have slavery? do you believe that the governments responsible for authorising slavery were high control dangerous cults? ...................

your grievances show a bitterness - am sorry about that. As my non believing step son says 'the Witnesses are not perfect but they are the only religion that is anywhere near the right one. the rest are woefully incorrect'.

I have no grievance with this cult. I have gone to some meetings and studied on jw.org what they believe. I have not been baptized nor do I have any relations with a JW. I am not bitter. I am pointing out facts.

It is no where near spiritual. JWs teach that Jesus is only the mediator for 144000 Christians, and that only they go to heaven as they are the only ones in the new covenant and so they only take the bread and wine. Also that Jesus only died for adamic sin and not current personal sins.

Nice to see you admit the hate speech though, thanks.

Shunning former members is not Scriptural at all Where did Jesus teach to shun? No where. He taught to show mercy no sacrifice. He taught to show love. Shunning is fear control, not love.

Proverbs 4:18 talks about the path of the righteous getting brighter it is not talking about enlightenment of your 'truth' to explain your changes in doctrine. If what was taught 50 years ago has all been changed, it was not the truth then. So how can you know the current 'truth' is really the truth, or it will not change next year?

Even if that verse about the light getting brighter was about enlightenment and knowledge (which it isn't if you read it in context). That does not explain the flip flopping of doctrine. That up to 1950's getting an organ transplant was fine, but then for 10 years it was considered cannibalism, then after that it was fine again. That's not getting brighter is it? That's brighter, then darker, then brighter again. That is the same with countless issues and doctrine. Look on your CD library for proof. The WT literature provides all the evidence you need.

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]jonzawonza[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]jonzawonza[/bold] wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.
They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.
They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.
They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.[/p][/quote]Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.
● “This people honor me [God] with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.
● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.
Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.[/p][/quote]I have been to many meetings and I have heard the hate speech how all other religions are a part of "babylon the great" in other words the 'beast' and all worship satan and demons.
You do shun former members.
You lie about your core doctrines until you get people in.
Have you read the Shepard the flock of God book? The secret elder handbook where elders are told to drop matters unless there was two witnesses to an allegation.
Look up on your CD-ROM WT library about the issue of rape. How women who were raped and didn't scream would be disfellowshipped and then shunned. Or 1975. How they have 8 false prophesies since it's formation.
jwfacts.com has all the information you need on this high control dangerous cult. I've checked for myself all the quotes on that site are all correct.[/p][/quote]again Jonzawonza i refer you to what Jesus said about true and false religion. If you had a firm conviction for the Truth wouldn't you despise lies and falsehoods? any disliking is aimed at the leaders of false religions not the parishioners or members. listen carefully at the meetings.
those who oppose the Truth having been baptised will be asked to leave to keep the cong clean - there is sound scriptural reason for it.
all your accusations are ancient not current - Jehovah's Witnesses accept clearly that they are infallible - they are human! imperfect. errors are admitted. alterations and adjustments are made - again scripture shows the light getting brighter will reveal better information.
put away your prejudices please from a long time ago.
slavery was rife in many nations for centuries - now it's abolished. would you agree that it was a terrible thing to have slavery? do you believe that the governments responsible for authorising slavery were high control dangerous cults? ...................
your grievances show a bitterness - am sorry about that. As my non believing step son says 'the Witnesses are not perfect but they are the only religion that is anywhere near the right one. the rest are woefully incorrect'.[/p][/quote]I have no grievance with this cult. I have gone to some meetings and studied on jw.org what they believe. I have not been baptized nor do I have any relations with a JW. I am not bitter. I am pointing out facts.
It is no where near spiritual. JWs teach that Jesus is only the mediator for 144000 Christians, and that only they go to heaven as they are the only ones in the new covenant and so they only take the bread and wine. Also that Jesus only died for adamic sin and not current personal sins.
Nice to see you admit the hate speech though, thanks.
Shunning former members is not Scriptural at all Where did Jesus teach to shun? No where. He taught to show mercy no sacrifice. He taught to show love. Shunning is fear control, not love.
Proverbs 4:18 talks about the path of the righteous getting brighter it is not talking about enlightenment of your 'truth' to explain your changes in doctrine. If what was taught 50 years ago has all been changed, it was not the truth then. So how can you know the current 'truth' is really the truth, or it will not change next year?
Even if that verse about the light getting brighter was about enlightenment and knowledge (which it isn't if you read it in context). That does not explain the flip flopping of doctrine. That up to 1950's getting an organ transplant was fine, but then for 10 years it was considered cannibalism, then after that it was fine again. That's not getting brighter is it? That's brighter, then darker, then brighter again. That is the same with countless issues and doctrine. Look on your CD library for proof. The WT literature provides all the evidence you need.jonzawonza

They meet many of the warning signs for being a cult. Remember these signs as you find out more. Ask about who the Faithful and Discreet slave is.. It's 7 men in NY.

Here are some quotes directly from their website that you can read about how you are supposed to obey these men, even if it doesn't seem to make sense:

http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20091
23 Feb 15th 2009 "Governing Body are FDS"
P17 "The faithful and discreet slave today is represented by the Governing Body, who take the lead and coordinate the Kingdom-preaching work throughout the earth. The members of the Governing Body are experienced, spirit-anointed elders. They in particular can be described as “those who are taking the lead” among us."

http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20106
85 WT Sept 15th 2010, so the Governing Body is Christ?
P8 "The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ."

http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/40201
1526?q=obey+faithful
+and+discreet+slave&
p=par WT July 15th 2011 obey FDS to have Jehovah's approval
P11 "What do you do when the faithful and discreet slave tells you to try a way of preaching that you never tried before? Do you obey even if this way of preaching seems very difficult to you?"

http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/40201
1525 WT July 15th 2011
P17 "But we are acting against Jehovah’s purpose if we do not obey the faithful and discreet slave or if we choose to obey only what we think is important."

http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20138
46 WT Nov 15th 2013 Obey even if it doesn't make sense?
P17 " At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not."

http://www.culteduca
tion.com/warningsign
s.html
They meet many of the warning signs for being a cult. Remember these signs as you find out more. Ask about who the Faithful and Discreet slave is.. It's 7 men in NY.
Here are some quotes directly from their website that you can read about how you are supposed to obey these men, even if it doesn't seem to make sense:
http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20091
23 Feb 15th 2009 "Governing Body are FDS"
P17 "The faithful and discreet slave today is represented by the Governing Body, who take the lead and coordinate the Kingdom-preaching work throughout the earth. The members of the Governing Body are experienced, spirit-anointed elders. They in particular can be described as “those who are taking the lead” among us."
http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20106
85 WT Sept 15th 2010, so the Governing Body is Christ?
P8 "The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ."
http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/40201
1526?q=obey+faithful
+and+discreet+slave&
p=par WT July 15th 2011 obey FDS to have Jehovah's approval
P11 "What do you do when the faithful and discreet slave tells you to try a way of preaching that you never tried before? Do you obey even if this way of preaching seems very difficult to you?"
http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/40201
1525 WT July 15th 2011
P17 "But we are acting against Jehovah’s purpose if we do not obey the faithful and discreet slave or if we choose to obey only what we think is important."
http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20138
46 WT Nov 15th 2013 Obey even if it doesn't make sense?
P17 " At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not."
Except the Bible teaches clearly to not obey men. Your supposed faithful and discreet slave.. Psalms 118: 8, Psalms 146: 3, Isaiah 2:22, Jeremiah 17:5, Romans 13:1jonzawonza

I know i won't be going to heaven - i have no desire to be a priest - i will look forward to remaining on the earth or being resurrected to the earth - Ps 37;10,11,29. looking forward to seeing you there in the new system!

1 Corinthians 5:6,7,11. Shunning/Disfellowsh
ipping.
Revelation 14:3 - 144 000.
I know i won't be going to heaven - i have no desire to be a priest - i will look forward to remaining on the earth or being resurrected to the earth - Ps 37;10,11,29. looking forward to seeing you there in the new system!ADIC69

Where did the money come from to buy this property.
It is the blood sweat and tears of the victims of the Watchtower.
I was a 'believer' for 23 years, from. 'New one' to 'study' to 'un baptized publisher', 'baptised publisher','auxiliar
y pioneer', regular (permenant) pioneer. I slaved in building branch offices in Georgetown, ontario, Canada. I was an 'ministerial servant', then Appointed Elder by 'Jehovah's Holy Spirit'. Worked with their legal department teaching people to twist and lie when in the court room about their beliefs. I was a replacement travelling overseer, when I realized I was part of a 'Borg'-like organization. I lost my prime earning years, my family and my friends.

I hope someone in Chelmsford doesn't just believe in money,€£¥$.

The governing body of Jehovah's witnesses had recently published information that they now believe that only they represent the Faithful and Discreet slave.
This 'new light' alters many fundamental doctrines in hundreds of their publications.
Why would God allow them to publish fundamental inaccuracies for nearly a century, when they were charged with giving the domestics food at the 'proper time'
They say that further consideration of the scriptures has lead them to this understanding, also considering the context helped this understanding.
This simply gives the Governing body more power and influence.
They label those that bring up objections to any of this, poisonous apostates, Satan's helpers, deceitful, bitter angry people, the antichrist. All the while saying labelling is unchristian in their other articles.
If someone else saw this 'new light' before the GB announced it, from an in-depth study of the scriptures, they would have been disfellowshipped for not keeping in the current teaching. The same was true of 1975, and the 'generation' teaching that is still in flux.
This is a high control religious group that uses mind control techniques, emotional blackmail, peer pressure, restricts information, misquotes sources, sets itself above the laws of the lands, responsible for countless family breakups, deaths and pain.

Where did the money come from to buy this property.
It is the blood sweat and tears of the victims of the Watchtower.
I was a 'believer' for 23 years, from. 'New one' to 'study' to 'un baptized publisher', 'baptised publisher','auxiliar
y pioneer', regular (permenant) pioneer. I slaved in building branch offices in Georgetown, ontario, Canada. I was an 'ministerial servant', then Appointed Elder by 'Jehovah's Holy Spirit'. Worked with their legal department teaching people to twist and lie when in the court room about their beliefs. I was a replacement travelling overseer, when I realized I was part of a 'Borg'-like organization. I lost my prime earning years, my family and my friends.
I hope someone in Chelmsford doesn't just believe in money,€£¥$.
The governing body of Jehovah's witnesses had recently published information that they now believe that only they represent the Faithful and Discreet slave.
This 'new light' alters many fundamental doctrines in hundreds of their publications.
Why would God allow them to publish fundamental inaccuracies for nearly a century, when they were charged with giving the domestics food at the 'proper time'
They say that further consideration of the scriptures has lead them to this understanding, also considering the context helped this understanding.
This simply gives the Governing body more power and influence.
They label those that bring up objections to any of this, poisonous apostates, Satan's helpers, deceitful, bitter angry people, the antichrist. All the while saying labelling is unchristian in their other articles.
If someone else saw this 'new light' before the GB announced it, from an in-depth study of the scriptures, they would have been disfellowshipped for not keeping in the current teaching. The same was true of 1975, and the 'generation' teaching that is still in flux.
This is a high control religious group that uses mind control techniques, emotional blackmail, peer pressure, restricts information, misquotes sources, sets itself above the laws of the lands, responsible for countless family breakups, deaths and pain.XJehovah

I grew up as one and left the cult at age of 17. my entire childhood lost because of these people.....

even at the age of 24 i'm still scared by them..... thankfully i wasn't molested by an elder and told to keep quiet.....

just got to deal with low self esteem

I grew up as one and left the cult at age of 17. my entire childhood lost because of these people.....
even at the age of 24 i'm still scared by them..... thankfully i wasn't molested by an elder and told to keep quiet.....
just got to deal with low self esteemChris290

jonzawonza wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.

They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.

They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.

They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.

Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.

● “This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.

● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.

Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.

guess what? you are on the open internet. what goes in behind those closed doors at the kingdom hall does not apply here.

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]jonzawonza[/bold] wrote:
They are a dangerous cult and shun former members including family. There is no way out once you are in.
They promote hate speech of all other non members and other religions.
They protect pedophiles due to their two witness rules and members who commit domestic violence.
They flip flop on the doctrines all the time and claim they are the only ones in the truth.[/p][/quote]Another troll! wow - definition of 'cult' please. Hate speech is not promoted - have you ever listened to a Jehovah's Witness or been to a meeting or are you copying and pasting from a troll site? do you have any evidence at all to back up your wildly outrageous opinions? any evidence that is valid truthful and current? 'the only ones in the Truth'?
Does God Approve of All Religions?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
Some people think that all religions are pleasing to God. The following Bible verses show that this is not true:
● “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (Judges 10:6, 7) If we worship idols or any god other than the true God, we will not have Jehovah’s approval.
● “This people honor me [God] with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” (Mark 7:6, 7) If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.
● “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Our worship must be in harmony with the truth of God’s Word.
Jonzawonza, instead of repeating lies i recommend you either listen to the Witnesses for they are reasonable kind people as brought out in this article or view www.jw.org to find some real answers.[/p][/quote]guess what? you are on the open internet. what goes in behind those closed doors at the kingdom hall does not apply here.Chris290

ADIC69 wrote:
Humans have been imperfect since Adam.
The Governing Body do not claim to be perfect men.
Jehovah can still guide and protect imperfect men.
If Jehovah is not guiding the Witnesses then who is he guiding? - i have researched numerous religions including atheism and catholicism and these are woefully short when it comes to living up to the Bible's principles.

i feel your anger in the words you use ('stupid', 'don't come here') but won't rise to your bait.

As i have said earlier and over and over, we come to an understanding on scripture as the light becomes brighter. God does not give lies misinfo or halftruths - it is the imperfection of man in interpreting the info correctly until it becomes correct.

JWs do not (again!!) claim to be perfect - JWs strive to live by Bible principles.

Again, and to repeat, no one human is infallible, or perfect. fact. why am i following what the Witnesses teach? because they teach from God's Word which is inerrant. They follow what the 1st century followers of Christ did. anyone else doing that? i thought not!

i read your opinions and thoughts and smile as I see me writing those things 10 years ago when i was an angry young man with no Bible knowledge but full of education and belief in human philosophy.

"but full of education "

so you went to college?

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
Humans have been imperfect since Adam.
The Governing Body do not claim to be perfect men.
Jehovah can still guide and protect imperfect men.
If Jehovah is not guiding the Witnesses then who is he guiding? - i have researched numerous religions including atheism and catholicism and these are woefully short when it comes to living up to the Bible's principles.
i feel your anger in the words you use ('stupid', 'don't come here') but won't rise to your bait.
As i have said earlier and over and over, we come to an understanding on scripture as the light becomes brighter. God does not give lies misinfo or halftruths - it is the imperfection of man in interpreting the info correctly until it becomes correct.
JWs do not (again!!) claim to be perfect - JWs strive to live by Bible principles.
Again, and to repeat, no one human is infallible, or perfect. fact. why am i following what the Witnesses teach? because they teach from God's Word which is inerrant. They follow what the 1st century followers of Christ did. anyone else doing that? i thought not!
i read your opinions and thoughts and smile as I see me writing those things 10 years ago when i was an angry young man with no Bible knowledge but full of education and belief in human philosophy.[/p][/quote]"but full of education "
so you went to college?Chris290

ADIC69 wrote:
Humans have been imperfect since Adam.
The Governing Body do not claim to be perfect men.
Jehovah can still guide and protect imperfect men.
If Jehovah is not guiding the Witnesses then who is he guiding? - i have researched numerous religions including atheism and catholicism and these are woefully short when it comes to living up to the Bible's principles.

i feel your anger in the words you use ('stupid', 'don't come here') but won't rise to your bait.

As i have said earlier and over and over, we come to an understanding on scripture as the light becomes brighter. God does not give lies misinfo or halftruths - it is the imperfection of man in interpreting the info correctly until it becomes correct.

JWs do not (again!!) claim to be perfect - JWs strive to live by Bible principles.

Again, and to repeat, no one human is infallible, or perfect. fact. why am i following what the Witnesses teach? because they teach from God's Word which is inerrant. They follow what the 1st century followers of Christ did. anyone else doing that? i thought not!

i read your opinions and thoughts and smile as I see me writing those things 10 years ago when i was an angry young man with no Bible knowledge but full of education and belief in human philosophy.

&quot;but full of education "

so you went to college?

i did go to college - i was raised Church of England mate. became an atheist. researched buddhism. it was all blah blah blah. and i know where youa re going with 'college' - AGAIN another outdated idea you raise. Would you believe that elders can go to college and still pioneer? wow, that must rock your boat!

[quote][p][bold]Chris290[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
Humans have been imperfect since Adam.
The Governing Body do not claim to be perfect men.
Jehovah can still guide and protect imperfect men.
If Jehovah is not guiding the Witnesses then who is he guiding? - i have researched numerous religions including atheism and catholicism and these are woefully short when it comes to living up to the Bible's principles.
i feel your anger in the words you use ('stupid', 'don't come here') but won't rise to your bait.
As i have said earlier and over and over, we come to an understanding on scripture as the light becomes brighter. God does not give lies misinfo or halftruths - it is the imperfection of man in interpreting the info correctly until it becomes correct.
JWs do not (again!!) claim to be perfect - JWs strive to live by Bible principles.
Again, and to repeat, no one human is infallible, or perfect. fact. why am i following what the Witnesses teach? because they teach from God's Word which is inerrant. They follow what the 1st century followers of Christ did. anyone else doing that? i thought not!
i read your opinions and thoughts and smile as I see me writing those things 10 years ago when i was an angry young man with no Bible knowledge but full of education and belief in human philosophy.[/p][/quote]"but full of education "
so you went to college?[/p][/quote]i did go to college - i was raised Church of England mate. became an atheist. researched buddhism. it was all blah blah blah. and i know where youa re going with 'college' - AGAIN another outdated idea you raise. Would you believe that elders can go to college and still pioneer? wow, that must rock your boat!ADIC69

I know i won't be going to heaven - i have no desire to be a priest - i will look forward to remaining on the earth or being resurrected to the earth - Ps 37;10,11,29. looking forward to seeing you there in the new system!

Luke 6:23 Our reward is in heaven
John 14:1 Fathers house there's lots of space!
Revelation 7:9-10 great crowd are stood before the throne in heaven. V15 they are still before His throne, and render service to Him in His temple
Revelation 10:19 His temple is in heaven
Revelation 19:1 great crowd is in heaven
John 10:16 the other sheep will become one flock
Matthew 23:1-15 All the unneeded rules forced by leaders (WT) shuts you out of heaven
Colossians 3:1-4 keep your minds fixed on above not earth!
If the great crowd is supposed to be on earth why does Rev 19:1 say they're in heaven?
Revelation 5:9,10 The 144000 rule as kings on earth

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
1 Corinthians 5:6,7,11. Shunning/Disfellowsh
ipping.
Revelation 14:3 - 144 000.
I know i won't be going to heaven - i have no desire to be a priest - i will look forward to remaining on the earth or being resurrected to the earth - Ps 37;10,11,29. looking forward to seeing you there in the new system![/p][/quote]Luke 6:23 Our reward is in heaven
John 14:1 Fathers house there's lots of space!
Revelation 7:9-10 great crowd are stood before the throne in heaven. V15 they are still before His throne, and render service to Him in His temple
Revelation 10:19 His temple is in heaven
Revelation 19:1 great crowd is in heaven
John 10:16 the other sheep will become one flock
Matthew 23:1-15 All the unneeded rules forced by leaders (WT) shuts you out of heaven
Colossians 3:1-4 keep your minds fixed on above not earth!
If the great crowd is supposed to be on earth why does Rev 19:1 say they're in heaven?
Revelation 5:9,10 The 144000 rule as kings on earthjonzawonza

You do not teach the gospel at all. That is totally the opposite of proof.

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
Matthew 24:14. nobody else but the Witnesses are fulfilling this prophecy. love it.
Acts 5:39,39. proof.[/p][/quote]You do not teach the gospel at all. That is totally the opposite of proof.jonzawonza

ADIC69 wrote:
with nigh on 8 million active publishers and nearly another 12 million studying i'd say a lot of what the JWs are doing is thoroughly blessed by God.

There are 7 Billion people in the world. There are 2 Billion Catholics and 1 Billion protestants. JWs are TINY and insignificant to that.

Except they believe Jehovah will wipe out 99.9999% of people in this world at Armageddon. Which is coming very soon and has been for the past 130+ years! That is NOT the God of the Bible!

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
with nigh on 8 million active publishers and nearly another 12 million studying i'd say a lot of what the JWs are doing is thoroughly blessed by God.[/p][/quote]There are 7 Billion people in the world. There are 2 Billion Catholics and 1 Billion protestants. JWs are TINY and insignificant to that.
Except they believe Jehovah will wipe out 99.9999% of people in this world at Armageddon. Which is coming very soon and has been for the past 130+ years! That is NOT the God of the Bible!jonzawonza

Funny how you leave out verse 10: "not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world."

This is a letter to the congregation, and to people who are called a brother. This does not have anything to do with biological family. It also does not say anything about shunning, to hate the person, to not even say hello to them.

"ADIC69 wrote:
1 Corinthians 5:6,7,11. Shunning/Disfellowsh
"
Funny how you leave out verse 10: "not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world."
This is a letter to the congregation, and to people who are called a brother. This does not have anything to do with biological family. It also does not say anything about shunning, to hate the person, to not even say hello to them.jonzawonza

ADIC69 wrote:
Humans have been imperfect since Adam.
The Governing Body do not claim to be perfect men.
Jehovah can still guide and protect imperfect men.
If Jehovah is not guiding the Witnesses then who is he guiding? - i have researched numerous religions including atheism and catholicism and these are woefully short when it comes to living up to the Bible's principles.

i feel your anger in the words you use ('stupid', 'don't come here') but won't rise to your bait.

As i have said earlier and over and over, we come to an understanding on scripture as the light becomes brighter. God does not give lies misinfo or halftruths - it is the imperfection of man in interpreting the info correctly until it becomes correct.

JWs do not (again!!) claim to be perfect - JWs strive to live by Bible principles.

Again, and to repeat, no one human is infallible, or perfect. fact. why am i following what the Witnesses teach? because they teach from God's Word which is inerrant. They follow what the 1st century followers of Christ did. anyone else doing that? i thought not!

i read your opinions and thoughts and smile as I see me writing those things 10 years ago when i was an angry young man with no Bible knowledge but full of education and belief in human philosophy.

&quot;but full of education "

so you went to college?

i did go to college - i was raised Church of England mate. became an atheist. researched buddhism. it was all blah blah blah. and i know where youa re going with 'college' - AGAIN another outdated idea you raise. Would you believe that elders can go to college and still pioneer? wow, that must rock your boat!

Outdated you say? More lies...

http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20082
81
"10 What, though, of higher education, received in a college or a university? This is widely viewed as vital to success. Yet, many who pursue such education end up with their minds filled with harmful propaganda. Such education wastes valuable youthful years that could best be used in Jehovah’s service. (Eccl. 12:1) Perhaps it is not surprising that in lands where many have received such an education, belief in God is at an all-time low. Rather than looking to the advanced educational systems of this world for security, a Christian trusts in Jehovah.—Prov. 3:5."

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Chris290[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
Humans have been imperfect since Adam.
The Governing Body do not claim to be perfect men.
Jehovah can still guide and protect imperfect men.
If Jehovah is not guiding the Witnesses then who is he guiding? - i have researched numerous religions including atheism and catholicism and these are woefully short when it comes to living up to the Bible's principles.
i feel your anger in the words you use ('stupid', 'don't come here') but won't rise to your bait.
As i have said earlier and over and over, we come to an understanding on scripture as the light becomes brighter. God does not give lies misinfo or halftruths - it is the imperfection of man in interpreting the info correctly until it becomes correct.
JWs do not (again!!) claim to be perfect - JWs strive to live by Bible principles.
Again, and to repeat, no one human is infallible, or perfect. fact. why am i following what the Witnesses teach? because they teach from God's Word which is inerrant. They follow what the 1st century followers of Christ did. anyone else doing that? i thought not!
i read your opinions and thoughts and smile as I see me writing those things 10 years ago when i was an angry young man with no Bible knowledge but full of education and belief in human philosophy.[/p][/quote]"but full of education "
so you went to college?[/p][/quote]i did go to college - i was raised Church of England mate. became an atheist. researched buddhism. it was all blah blah blah. and i know where youa re going with 'college' - AGAIN another outdated idea you raise. Would you believe that elders can go to college and still pioneer? wow, that must rock your boat![/p][/quote]Outdated you say? More lies...
http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20082
81
"10 What, though, of higher education, received in a college or a university? This is widely viewed as vital to success. Yet, many who pursue such education end up with their minds filled with harmful propaganda. Such education wastes valuable youthful years that could best be used in Jehovah’s service. (Eccl. 12:1) Perhaps it is not surprising that in lands where many have received such an education, belief in God is at an all-time low. Rather than looking to the advanced educational systems of this world for security, a Christian trusts in Jehovah.—Prov. 3:5."jonzawonza

ADIC69 wrote:
Humans have been imperfect since Adam.
The Governing Body do not claim to be perfect men.
Jehovah can still guide and protect imperfect men.
If Jehovah is not guiding the Witnesses then who is he guiding? - i have researched numerous religions including atheism and catholicism and these are woefully short when it comes to living up to the Bible's principles.

i feel your anger in the words you use ('stupid', 'don't come here') but won't rise to your bait.

As i have said earlier and over and over, we come to an understanding on scripture as the light becomes brighter. God does not give lies misinfo or halftruths - it is the imperfection of man in interpreting the info correctly until it becomes correct.

JWs do not (again!!) claim to be perfect - JWs strive to live by Bible principles.

Again, and to repeat, no one human is infallible, or perfect. fact. why am i following what the Witnesses teach? because they teach from God's Word which is inerrant. They follow what the 1st century followers of Christ did. anyone else doing that? i thought not!

i read your opinions and thoughts and smile as I see me writing those things 10 years ago when i was an angry young man with no Bible knowledge but full of education and belief in human philosophy.

&quot;but full of education "

so you went to college?

i did go to college - i was raised Church of England mate. became an atheist. researched buddhism. it was all blah blah blah. and i know where youa re going with 'college' - AGAIN another outdated idea you raise. Would you believe that elders can go to college and still pioneer? wow, that must rock your boat!

funny. they always seem to be against higher education. even says soin the watchtower it self

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Chris290[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
Humans have been imperfect since Adam.
The Governing Body do not claim to be perfect men.
Jehovah can still guide and protect imperfect men.
If Jehovah is not guiding the Witnesses then who is he guiding? - i have researched numerous religions including atheism and catholicism and these are woefully short when it comes to living up to the Bible's principles.
i feel your anger in the words you use ('stupid', 'don't come here') but won't rise to your bait.
As i have said earlier and over and over, we come to an understanding on scripture as the light becomes brighter. God does not give lies misinfo or halftruths - it is the imperfection of man in interpreting the info correctly until it becomes correct.
JWs do not (again!!) claim to be perfect - JWs strive to live by Bible principles.
Again, and to repeat, no one human is infallible, or perfect. fact. why am i following what the Witnesses teach? because they teach from God's Word which is inerrant. They follow what the 1st century followers of Christ did. anyone else doing that? i thought not!
i read your opinions and thoughts and smile as I see me writing those things 10 years ago when i was an angry young man with no Bible knowledge but full of education and belief in human philosophy.[/p][/quote]"but full of education "
so you went to college?[/p][/quote]i did go to college - i was raised Church of England mate. became an atheist. researched buddhism. it was all blah blah blah. and i know where youa re going with 'college' - AGAIN another outdated idea you raise. Would you believe that elders can go to college and still pioneer? wow, that must rock your boat![/p][/quote]funny. they always seem to be against higher education. even says soin the watchtower it selfChris290

Some quotes from that article:
"Had he pursued a career in sports, Eric might have gained fame and wealth. But he realized the truth of a Bible principle: “The wealth of the rich is his fortified city; it is like a protective wall in his imagination.” (Prov. 18:11) Yes, the security that a person might seem to gain through wealth is actually an illusion. Moreover, those who avidly pursue riches usually ‘stab themselves all over with many pains.’—1 Tim. 6:9, 10.

Happily, many young people have found joy and lasting security by taking up the full-time service. Eric says: “I have joined a large ‘team’ of full-time servants of Jehovah. That is the best team I can belong to, and I thank Jehovah for showing me the only way to true happiness and success in life.”

What about you? Rather than pursue worldly goals, why not firmly establish “your ways” before Jehovah by sharing in the pioneer ministry?—See the box “Gaining Benefits Unattainable at the University.”"

" Flavia accepted Bible truth and was baptized. But because she was studying for an advanced degree, her time for preaching the good news was limited. One day she listened as the circuit overseer discussed James 4:17: “If someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.” That moved Flavia to think about her own situation. She relates: “While wanting Jehovah’s blessing, I also wanted satisfaction from my career in science. I had to choose.”

" Flavia made the personal decision to end her studies at the university. Did that leave her with regrets? She says:

In Jehovah’s service, I have gained benefits unattainable at the university. Jehovah has been good to me. He has taught me to be kind, to show love, to help others spiritually. I have a wonderful marriage and a future far better than the one offered by science. Only Jehovah can save the planet. I will not turn my back on him.” Flavia and her husband serve at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York."

Hmm how can next month be outdated? They are strongly against education. Keep the rank and file JW uneducated so they are more susceptible to their mind control techniques and flawed doctrines.

More on education see the next months publication June 15:
http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20144
42
(remove spaces this site inserts)
Some quotes from that article:
"Had he pursued a career in sports, Eric might have gained fame and wealth. But he realized the truth of a Bible principle: “The wealth of the rich is his fortified city; it is like a protective wall in his imagination.” (Prov. 18:11) Yes, the security that a person might seem to gain through wealth is actually an illusion. Moreover, those who avidly pursue riches usually ‘stab themselves all over with many pains.’—1 Tim. 6:9, 10.
Happily, many young people have found joy and lasting security by taking up the full-time service. Eric says: “I have joined a large ‘team’ of full-time servants of Jehovah. That is the best team I can belong to, and I thank Jehovah for showing me the only way to true happiness and success in life.”
What about you? Rather than pursue worldly goals, why not firmly establish “your ways” before Jehovah by sharing in the pioneer ministry?—See the box “Gaining Benefits Unattainable at the University.”"
" Flavia accepted Bible truth and was baptized. But because she was studying for an advanced degree, her time for preaching the good news was limited. One day she listened as the circuit overseer discussed James 4:17: “If someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.” That moved Flavia to think about her own situation. She relates: “While wanting Jehovah’s blessing, I also wanted satisfaction from my career in science. I had to choose.”
" Flavia made the personal decision to end her studies at the university. Did that leave her with regrets? She says:
In Jehovah’s service, I have gained benefits unattainable at the university. Jehovah has been good to me. He has taught me to be kind, to show love, to help others spiritually. I have a wonderful marriage and a future far better than the one offered by science. Only Jehovah can save the planet. I will not turn my back on him.” Flavia and her husband serve at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York."
Hmm how can next month be outdated? They are strongly against education. Keep the rank and file JW uneducated so they are more susceptible to their mind control techniques and flawed doctrines.jonzawonza

Another classic about how Jehovah's Organization (the WT) is how you get salvation:
http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20068
82
(remove spaces this site inserts)
We ‘see’ Jehovah and “hear” his voice of salvation by heeding what he says through his inspired Word, the Bible, and through “the faithful and discreet slave.”

Where is Jesus in this?

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Another classic about how Jehovah's Organization (the WT) is how you get salvation:
http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20068
82
(remove spaces this site inserts)
We ‘see’ Jehovah and “hear” his voice of salvation by heeding what he says through his inspired Word, the Bible, and through “the faithful and discreet slave.”
Where is Jesus in this?
John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."jonzawonza

Jehovah’s Witnesses are a religious cult using mind control and the Bible to pose as “the one true religion.” They protect pedofiles, do not allow their members blood transfusions , shun former members, emotionally blackmail, treat women as second class citizens, expect everyone who is not a member to die horrible deaths in Armageddon, and destroy families. Please do your research before joining.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are a religious cult using mind control and the Bible to pose as “the one true religion.” They protect pedofiles, do not allow their members blood transfusions [including children], shun [“disfellowship”
] former members, emotionally blackmail, treat women as second class citizens, expect everyone who is not a member to die horrible deaths in Armageddon, and destroy families. Please do your research before joining.AgainstCults

ADIC69 wrote:
with nigh on 8 million active publishers and nearly another 12 million studying i'd say a lot of what the JWs are doing is thoroughly blessed by God.

The same could be said about any dangerous religion or cult. Judging if something is blessed by god based on the numbers is pure stupidity.

[quote][p][bold]ADIC69[/bold] wrote:
with nigh on 8 million active publishers and nearly another 12 million studying i'd say a lot of what the JWs are doing is thoroughly blessed by God.[/p][/quote]The same could be said about any dangerous religion or cult. Judging if something is blessed by god based on the numbers is pure stupidity.AgainstCults

I hate to break this to you, but JWs are no moire "mad" than the average Englishman. In fact, much less so. Look at the first answer. Apparently in favor of all sexually transmitted diseases. Never wanting to diurty themselves with facts, they wrongly assume beliefs in the Bible us against science despite facts that where the Bible touches on scientific topics, it is always accurate. Even when
popular opinion that answerer favors was against the Bible's truths. Isaiah 40:51 about God who dwells above the "circle of the earth". From wherever one observed the earth, they would see it as a circle. Showing it was round instead of flat.

I hate to break this to you, but JWs are no moire "mad" than the average Englishman. In fact, much less so. Look at the first answer. Apparently in favor of all sexually transmitted diseases. Never wanting to diurty themselves with facts, they wrongly assume beliefs in the Bible us against science despite facts that where the Bible touches on scientific topics, it is always accurate. Even when
popular opinion that answerer favors was against the Bible's truths. Isaiah 40:51 about God who dwells above the "circle of the earth". From wherever one observed the earth, they would see it as a circle. Showing it was round instead of flat.tarkon

jonzawonza wrote:
More on education see the next months publication June 15:

http://wol.jw.org/en

/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20144

42
(remove spaces this site inserts)

Some quotes from that article:
&quot;Had he pursued a career in sports, Eric might have gained fame and wealth. But he realized the truth of a Bible principle: “The wealth of the rich is his fortified city; it is like a protective wall in his imagination.” (Prov. 18:11) Yes, the security that a person might seem to gain through wealth is actually an illusion. Moreover, those who avidly pursue riches usually ‘stab themselves all over with many pains.’—1 Tim. 6:9, 10.

Happily, many young people have found joy and lasting security by taking up the full-time service. Eric says: “I have joined a large ‘team’ of full-time servants of Jehovah. That is the best team I can belong to, and I thank Jehovah for showing me the only way to true happiness and success in life.”

What about you? Rather than pursue worldly goals, why not firmly establish “your ways” before Jehovah by sharing in the pioneer ministry?—See the box “Gaining Benefits Unattainable at the University.”"

" Flavia accepted Bible truth and was baptized. But because she was studying for an advanced degree, her time for preaching the good news was limited. One day she listened as the circuit overseer discussed James 4:17: “If someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.” That moved Flavia to think about her own situation. She relates: “While wanting Jehovah’s blessing, I also wanted satisfaction from my career in science. I had to choose.”

" Flavia made the personal decision to end her studies at the university. Did that leave her with regrets? She says:

In Jehovah’s service, I have gained benefits unattainable at the university. Jehovah has been good to me. He has taught me to be kind, to show love, to help others spiritually. I have a wonderful marriage and a future far better than the one offered by science. Only Jehovah can save the planet. I will not turn my back on him.” Flavia and her husband serve at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York."

Hmm how can next month be outdated? They are strongly against education. Keep the rank and file JW uneducated so they are more susceptible to their mind control techniques and flawed doctrines.

"In Jehovah’s service, I have gained benefits unattainable at the university. Jehovah has been good to me. He has taught me to be kind, to show love, to help others spiritually"

anything that can be used in the real world?

and you know who has taught me to be kind, loving and to help others? my parents. despite their crazy cult like beliefes....

[quote][p][bold]jonzawonza[/bold] wrote:
More on education see the next months publication June 15:
http://wol.jw.org/en
/wol/d/r1/lp-e/20144
42
(remove spaces this site inserts)
Some quotes from that article:
"Had he pursued a career in sports, Eric might have gained fame and wealth. But he realized the truth of a Bible principle: “The wealth of the rich is his fortified city; it is like a protective wall in his imagination.” (Prov. 18:11) Yes, the security that a person might seem to gain through wealth is actually an illusion. Moreover, those who avidly pursue riches usually ‘stab themselves all over with many pains.’—1 Tim. 6:9, 10.
Happily, many young people have found joy and lasting security by taking up the full-time service. Eric says: “I have joined a large ‘team’ of full-time servants of Jehovah. That is the best team I can belong to, and I thank Jehovah for showing me the only way to true happiness and success in life.”
What about you? Rather than pursue worldly goals, why not firmly establish “your ways” before Jehovah by sharing in the pioneer ministry?—See the box “Gaining Benefits Unattainable at the University.”"
" Flavia accepted Bible truth and was baptized. But because she was studying for an advanced degree, her time for preaching the good news was limited. One day she listened as the circuit overseer discussed James 4:17: “If someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.” That moved Flavia to think about her own situation. She relates: “While wanting Jehovah’s blessing, I also wanted satisfaction from my career in science. I had to choose.”
" Flavia made the personal decision to end her studies at the university. Did that leave her with regrets? She says:
In Jehovah’s service, I have gained benefits unattainable at the university. Jehovah has been good to me. He has taught me to be kind, to show love, to help others spiritually. I have a wonderful marriage and a future far better than the one offered by science. Only Jehovah can save the planet. I will not turn my back on him.” Flavia and her husband serve at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York."
Hmm how can next month be outdated? They are strongly against education. Keep the rank and file JW uneducated so they are more susceptible to their mind control techniques and flawed doctrines.[/p][/quote]"In Jehovah’s service, I have gained benefits unattainable at the university. Jehovah has been good to me. He has taught me to be kind, to show love, to help others spiritually"
anything that can be used in the real world?
and you know who has taught me to be kind, loving and to help others? my parents. despite their crazy cult like beliefes....Chris290

I note the 'brighter light' excuse for the doctrinal flip flops. In the JW perverse fantasy, Jesus is presumed to have returned to earth invisibly in 1914 and then, after a five year inspection of the groups practising and worshipping in his name, Jesus selected the JW forerunners, the Bible Students as his sole earthly rep., based on their grasp of Bible TRUTH.

SInce 1919, however, JW doctrine has changed almost beyond recognition. Therefore Jesus must have selected an outfit which had got it all wrong. If the JWs get permission to build their new centre in Essex, how many current TRUTHS will have been binned and new TRUTHS adopted, before its completion?

In 1919 Jesus selected a breakaway sect of Adventism, The Bible Students, later the Jehovah's Witnesses, who celebrated Christmas, displayed the crucifix and had no policies regarding blood transfusion. They had only recently discarded the Rapture and the calculating of the date for Armageddon using Pyramid measurements.

One thing that has not changed, and is unlikely to change, is that Jehovah's Witnesses are obsessed with looking forward to the day, very soon, when their Jehovah monster will execute the bulk of the human race for the capital crime of not living our lives and managing our thoughts exactly according to the ever changing diktats of a bunch of self appointed, self righteous, money grabbing, controlling old men in New York.

I note the 'brighter light' excuse for the doctrinal flip flops. In the JW perverse fantasy, Jesus is presumed to have returned to earth invisibly in 1914 and then, after a five year inspection of the groups practising and worshipping in his name, Jesus selected the JW forerunners, the Bible Students as his sole earthly rep., based on their grasp of Bible TRUTH.
SInce 1919, however, JW doctrine has changed almost beyond recognition. Therefore Jesus must have selected an outfit which had got it all wrong. If the JWs get permission to build their new centre in Essex, how many current TRUTHS will have been binned and new TRUTHS adopted, before its completion?
In 1919 Jesus selected a breakaway sect of Adventism, The Bible Students, later the Jehovah's Witnesses, who celebrated Christmas, displayed the crucifix and had no policies regarding blood transfusion. They had only recently discarded the Rapture and the calculating of the date for Armageddon using Pyramid measurements.
One thing that has not changed, and is unlikely to change, is that Jehovah's Witnesses are obsessed with looking forward to the day, very soon, when their Jehovah monster will execute the bulk of the human race for the capital crime of not living our lives and managing our thoughts exactly according to the ever changing diktats of a bunch of self appointed, self righteous, money grabbing, controlling old men in New York.NelRow 23

Another former member here, it's very sad to see a beautiful part of the world going to house this damaging cult

I recommend everyone to check out www.jwfacts.com, www.jwsurvey.org for the real facts about this cult.

A few of the damaging doctrines they promote:

Horrifying death of all non members at Armageddon
Child abuse didn't happen unless there were 2 witnesses
A rape victim can be punished for not fighting back enough, she is also advised to accept her rapist is 'a human too'
Women can not divorce an abusive husband, if they do and remarry years later they are expelled from the religion
Blood transfusions are not acceptable but every fraction of blood is...? Even a baby or child should die rather than accept
Parents must shun children who leave and vice versa
Elders have the right to pry into the members private lives and govern their clothing, relationships, friends, personal hygiene and even how much they eat. (Members can be expelled for 'gluttony')

Jwfacts.com has quotes from their literature for every one of these points.

Another former member here, it's very sad to see a beautiful part of the world going to house this damaging cult
I recommend everyone to check out www.jwfacts.com, www.jwsurvey.org for the real facts about this cult.
A few of the damaging doctrines they promote:
Horrifying death of all non members at Armageddon
Child abuse didn't happen unless there were 2 witnesses
A rape victim can be punished for not fighting back enough, she is also advised to accept her rapist is 'a human too'
Women can not divorce an abusive husband, if they do and remarry years later they are expelled from the religion
Blood transfusions are not acceptable but every fraction of blood is...? Even a baby or child should die rather than accept
Parents must shun children who leave and vice versa
Elders have the right to pry into the members private lives and govern their clothing, relationships, friends, personal hygiene and even how much they eat. (Members can be expelled for 'gluttony')
Jwfacts.com has quotes from their literature for every one of these points.Krk1991

Krk1991 wrote:
Another former member here, it's very sad to see a beautiful part of the world going to house this damaging cult

I recommend everyone to check out www.jwfacts.com, www.jwsurvey.org for the real facts about this cult.

A few of the damaging doctrines they promote:

Horrifying death of all non members at Armageddon
Child abuse didn't happen unless there were 2 witnesses
A rape victim can be punished for not fighting back enough, she is also advised to accept her rapist is 'a human too'
Women can not divorce an abusive husband, if they do and remarry years later they are expelled from the religion
Blood transfusions are not acceptable but every fraction of blood is...? Even a baby or child should die rather than accept
Parents must shun children who leave and vice versa
Elders have the right to pry into the members private lives and govern their clothing, relationships, friends, personal hygiene and even how much they eat. (Members can be expelled for 'gluttony')

Jwfacts.com has quotes from their literature for every one of these points.

why do these people need this if "the end is coming"

[quote][p][bold]Krk1991[/bold] wrote:
Another former member here, it's very sad to see a beautiful part of the world going to house this damaging cult
I recommend everyone to check out www.jwfacts.com, www.jwsurvey.org for the real facts about this cult.
A few of the damaging doctrines they promote:
Horrifying death of all non members at Armageddon
Child abuse didn't happen unless there were 2 witnesses
A rape victim can be punished for not fighting back enough, she is also advised to accept her rapist is 'a human too'
Women can not divorce an abusive husband, if they do and remarry years later they are expelled from the religion
Blood transfusions are not acceptable but every fraction of blood is...? Even a baby or child should die rather than accept
Parents must shun children who leave and vice versa
Elders have the right to pry into the members private lives and govern their clothing, relationships, friends, personal hygiene and even how much they eat. (Members can be expelled for 'gluttony')
Jwfacts.com has quotes from their literature for every one of these points.[/p][/quote]why do these people need this if "the end is coming"Chris290

Herein this comment section sure is a lot of negative commenting in regards to Jehovah's Witnesses. What is frightening; there is so much hate in the reasoning. Yes, hate! To the few that have tried to use sound, logical, and honest reasoning to dispel the unkind and twisted reasoning, of those commenters, 'just let it go brothers and sisters'. We know that Jehovah can and will take care of things. As the wise King Solomon, recorded for us all to read, he simply stated it so well in the Holy Bible: "13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is Fear the God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole of man. 14 For the God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad." Ecclesiastes 12:13,14 One last point for consideration. In the very near future, all mankind will certainly learn this fact; either the Jehovah's Witnesses will be proven right or wrong, or any "nay-sayers" will be. That is an awesome choice people. Which side do you want to be on? As for me, and my household, we have made our choices clear; to serve Jehovah for all of eternity. Thanks for your consideration. (A Yank)

Herein this comment section sure is a lot of negative commenting in regards to Jehovah's Witnesses. What is frightening; there is so much hate in the reasoning. Yes, hate! To the few that have tried to use sound, logical, and honest reasoning to dispel the unkind and twisted reasoning, of those commenters, 'just let it go brothers and sisters'. We know that Jehovah can and will take care of things. As the wise King Solomon, recorded for us all to read, he simply stated it so well in the Holy Bible: "13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man. 14 For the [true] God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad." Ecclesiastes 12:13,14 One last point for consideration. In the very near future, all mankind will certainly learn this fact; either the Jehovah's Witnesses will be proven right or wrong, or any "nay-sayers" will be. That is an awesome choice people. Which side do you want to be on? As for me, and my household, we have made our choices clear; to serve Jehovah for all of eternity. Thanks for your consideration. (A Yank)Ship Shape

Ship Shape wrote:
Herein this comment section sure is a lot of negative commenting in regards to Jehovah's Witnesses. What is frightening; there is so much hate in the reasoning. Yes, hate! To the few that have tried to use sound, logical, and honest reasoning to dispel the unkind and twisted reasoning, of those commenters, 'just let it go brothers and sisters'. We know that Jehovah can and will take care of things. As the wise King Solomon, recorded for us all to read, he simply stated it so well in the Holy Bible: &quot;13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is Fear the God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole of man. 14 For the God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad." Ecclesiastes 12:13,14 One last point for consideration. In the very near future, all mankind will certainly learn this fact; either the Jehovah's Witnesses will be proven right or wrong, or any "nay-sayers" will be. That is an awesome choice people. Which side do you want to be on? As for me, and my household, we have made our choices clear; to serve Jehovah for all of eternity. Thanks for your consideration. (A Yank)

Jehovah's Witnesses have been programmed to believe that anything negative said about them is hate speech. It is part of the cult mentality to feel persecuted when ever anything critical is said of their organization. This is part of the mind control techniques they use. I do not hate JW's in fact I am in love with one, and I love all her JW family too. I am very concerned for the fact that the organization that they are in is damaging and harmful, and that people have given their lives for their doctrine which has then gone on to change shortly after. Also, for the fact it protects and harbors pedophiles and people who cause domestic violence.

So no, not hate at all. In fact it is love. JW's are the ones who are taught to hate apostates.

[quote][p][bold]Ship Shape[/bold] wrote:
Herein this comment section sure is a lot of negative commenting in regards to Jehovah's Witnesses. What is frightening; there is so much hate in the reasoning. Yes, hate! To the few that have tried to use sound, logical, and honest reasoning to dispel the unkind and twisted reasoning, of those commenters, 'just let it go brothers and sisters'. We know that Jehovah can and will take care of things. As the wise King Solomon, recorded for us all to read, he simply stated it so well in the Holy Bible: "13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man. 14 For the [true] God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad." Ecclesiastes 12:13,14 One last point for consideration. In the very near future, all mankind will certainly learn this fact; either the Jehovah's Witnesses will be proven right or wrong, or any "nay-sayers" will be. That is an awesome choice people. Which side do you want to be on? As for me, and my household, we have made our choices clear; to serve Jehovah for all of eternity. Thanks for your consideration. (A Yank)[/p][/quote]Jehovah's Witnesses have been programmed to believe that anything negative said about them is hate speech. It is part of the cult mentality to feel persecuted when ever anything critical is said of their organization. This is part of the mind control techniques they use. I do not hate JW's in fact I am in love with one, and I love all her JW family too. I am very concerned for the fact that the organization that they are in is damaging and harmful, and that people have given their lives for their doctrine which has then gone on to change shortly after. Also, for the fact it protects and harbors pedophiles and people who cause domestic violence.
So no, not hate at all. In fact it is love. JW's are the ones who are taught to hate apostates.jonzawonza