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Keroko, I believe the point Hata is trying to make is, for other reasons (which seems to be regarding his contract with Kadokawa and the neighbor copyrights law) Ken had to end the manga there. He either could have used the last few chapters to make the manga goes to a very rushed end, or do what seems to be the case he did: If he is going to do a sequel later, continue the manga as he would, giving some hints (like that Negi already had special feelings for someone) without giving any big thing away, and just give a quick skip to be the end. That way he ends the current one while keeping ground for the sequel. After all rushing all the plot points and battles we had yet to see in a few chapters would also likely end up as a bad end. But one with no interest / space for he to continue.

Well if Akamatsu wants to give a sequel for negima, giving that last 6 chapters was probably the best choice. We could see how much potential that this series have because of that 6 chapters. Adding that to the possibility of the sequels/expansion, I'm now really looking forward to it.

Yeah. No. That's just a generic "I'm not telling the final answer" harem ending. Nothing "brilliant" about it. It's the biggest cliche in the book.

The Kyoto arc wasn't the final bloody arc in the manga. If this was just a side-step like the Kyoto arc, we would've just written it of as a time-waster and continued reading the manga. The problem is that the manga pretty much ended with that time-waster.

You'll excuse me if I don't exactly agree with the business plan of giving your fans a crappy ending filled with plotholes just to see how many will be interested in a sequel. Mostly because it means that if not enough people (how many is "enough" anyway) raise a fuss, we're stuck with it. That's just raising a big middle finger to your fans, really.

Pretty much agreeing with all these points. I think Hata's letting his fanatism for Akamatsu get the better off his objectivity here.

Pretty much agreeing with all these points. I think Hata's letting his fanatism for Akamatsu get the better off his objectivity here.

I can see that. After all, it seems that he's failing to not understand the following points that I made in my complaints about the Sport Festival arc:

1. Remember, the real reason why this event took place wasn't to find out who Negi has feelings for, but rather because Misa discovered that over half the class has kissed Negi, and jealous that she didn't kiss Negi yet, convinced the class that what he's doing is wrong, with the event being a way to teach Negi a lesson in taking advantage of a girl's emotions. Akira, Nodoka and Yue shouldn't be the only students that know better and defend Negi here. Also adding to the problems is that no one brought up the following things that would easily cause the class to realize just how full of bull Misa's complaints are:

The fact that most of the kisses were done not out of romantic intentions, but because it was the quickest way to form a Pactio AKA a way to assist Negi in battle;

Haruna and Yuuna, the two main students that sided with Misa when she accused Negi of being a womanizer, only kissed Negi because they wanted the Pactio card (thus meaning that they're pretty much hypocrites here).

2. By the mess once the class learns about Negi liking someone, I meant the sloppiness in how chapters 348-349 are handled. More specifically:

When chapter 347 ended, the main students involved in this mess have learned about Negi liking someone, only for the next chapter starting with with them rounding up other students and then ganging up on Negi and Asuna with no real buildup;

There's no real explanation to why Zazie eventually sided with Negi in chapter 349 after spending the entire last chapter siding with 3-A.

Akira, Nodoka and Yue shouldn't be the only students that know better and defend Negi here.

Not to mention Yue and Nodoka needed to be ashamed and nudged, AFTER allowing Chizuru to use her artifact on Negi (despite the fact Nodoka HAD an artifact that would have achieved the same effect much less painfully and without humiliating him. Just have her hidden somewhere near while another student walks up to Negi and asks him out of the blue "Who do you like?" Negi won't answer, of course, but the answer will come to his mind all the same). They'd actually have had more success there, since Negi couldn't have resisted the way he did to Chizuru's pactio (some Pactio, BTW. The only time it's used for anything, it's against its own magister. And it FAILS).

Really, any story where that happens, AND Setsuna draws her sword against Asuna for no good reason (and right after devoting a chapter to how much she idolizes Asuna now, AND she knows they'll lose Asuna "forever" now), AND Kaede tosses shurinken at her own classmates, isn't anything but Character Derailment. All for the sake of aping Love Hina, which wasn't a bad series at all (it ended much better than this), but just wasn't the same thing. It's as if Akamatsu just lost view of what each of his stories was supposed to mean.

It's funny how, other than Akira and Asuna, the only two students who actually stick to Negi's side all the way through are Yotsuba and Hakase, who have zero romantic interest for him.

Not to mention Yue and Nodoka needed to be ashamed and nudged, AFTER allowing Chizuru to use her artifact on Negi (despite the fact Nodoka HAD an artifact that would have achieved the same effect much less painfully and without humiliating him. Just have her hidden somewhere near while another student walks up to Negi and asks him out of the blue "Who do you like?" Negi won't answer, of course, but the answer will come to his mind all the same). They'd actually have had more success there, since Negi couldn't have resisted the way he did to Chizuru's pactio (some Pactio, BTW. The only time it's used for anything, it's against its own magister. And it FAILS).

I still think that Nodoka and Yue are pretty much forced into this by Haruna and just "played along" until they they found an opportunity to come to Negi's aide. After all, unless Ken Akamatsu is really showing that he doesn't give a crap about the story anymore, pretending to side with 3-A is the only explanation as to why Yue would even try to use a magic attack on Asuna (as she would know better that magic doesn't work on Asuna). Of course, him caring about the stort also explains why Nodoka didn't simply use the Diarium Ejus on Negi (as it goes against the whole idea of why she got the book in the first place)

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Really, any story where that happens, AND Setsuna draws her sword against Asuna for no good reason (and right after devoting a chapter to how much she idolizes Asuna now, AND she knows they'll lose Asuna "forever" now), AND Kaede tosses shurinken at her own classmates, isn't anything but Character Derailment. All for the sake of aping Love Hina, which wasn't a bad series at all (it ended much better than this), but just wasn't the same thing. It's as if Akamatsu just lost view of what each of his stories was supposed to mean.

That's percisely the biggest problem with the Sports Festival arc: it's pretty much Ken Akamatsu devolving back into his days of writing Love Hina, and given all the character growth we've seen between the "Kiss Negi" contest (which serves as the last real "harem comedy" bit before the story really became more shonen-focused) and the Sports Festival arc, that pretty much requires a lot of character development to be thrown out the window.

Keroko, I believe the point Hata is trying to make is, for other reasons (which seems to be regarding his contract with Kadokawa and the neighbor copyrights law) Ken had to end the manga there. He either could have used the last few chapters to make the manga goes to a very rushed end, or do what seems to be the case he did: If he is going to do a sequel later, continue the manga as he would, giving some hints (like that Negi already had special feelings for someone) without giving any big thing away, and just give a quick skip to be the end. That way he ends the current one while keeping ground for the sequel. After all rushing all the plot points and battles we had yet to see in a few chapters would also likely end up as a bad end. But one with no interest / space for he to continue.

And my point is that he could have at least used those few chapters to tie up some of the minor plotpoints that have been around since the beginning, rather than waste them on an arc that had no point whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

When people say six, did they include the stupid shota-rape attempt arc? Because I'm pretty sure that one alone counts more than six...

That's pretty much the arc I'm talking about. The others at least have some concluding threads in them.

Eh, If what happened in the so-called finale will not change I'm not really interested.

then you are a living proof why Ken left the final partner choice hidden, to temporary end it Ken has to show us the ending without the process, but some people once knew the end might lose interest even if there is a future returns to fill in the gaps, thus, Ken purposely made the final partner selection a mystery to keep people's interest, which of course led us to the sports festival again. it is a hook for a Negima 2.

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Originally Posted by Tiresias

The two F-you's-from-the-creators I've received this year from both Negima and Mass Effect kinda killed my enthusiasm.

I'll probably stay here so when any Arika spoilers pop up I'll know which chapter to get (and that chapter only) but the days of me waiting expectantly every week for Negima updates is long gone.

but you still care enough to bitch err, post how unsatisfied you are, ACG would call that tsundere tendency I believe.

I see quite a few Negima manga set for sell in my neck of the wood (complete set only short of the last few volumes), but I haven't seen anyone with a book burning video on youtube like School Rumble.

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Originally Posted by Keroko

(more complaints deleted)

the only thing I can say about the way you and most people who sounds displeased about Negima's "supposed" ending, and all the reasons you give for it, it would be valid if it is REALLY the end of Negima, and as we now confirmed with 38, it MIGHT NOT, (notice I was withholding my opinion about the Negima ending until then?) and even if it does really end here, mangaka are not slaves or circus monkey who are obligated to perform for people's pleasure 24hrs a day no matter how popular they are, real life intervene with a manga series all the time, Ken has his reason for ending Negima the Kodansha version the way it is, what is the reason, since he has not gone public I have no idea, if all you are so frustrated because a mangaka needs to take a long break in between, then I really hope you aren't following HxH and FSS, 2 of the more popular manga in history with breaks calculated in 'years", (FSS starts in 1986 with only 12 books completed, mind you.) Ken at least has the decency to put an ending point on the series instead of leaving the story hanging. I, as a fan of FSS, (which has 10 times the story complexity of Negima) has long ago giving up the hope of able to see the end of FSS in my life time.

I understand this is basically a blowing off steam session for most of you, and the fact that you need to do that is because you actually like Negima very much, (yeah, no matter how much people trash it, you won't be here and it wouldn't hurt so much if you don't like it.) but if manga is real life, you all would need therapy, compare to some other people's life time leisure interest suffering, like being a Cubs or Bills fan, this is child play,

if it might help, instead here, you can send msg directly to Ken's Facebook to let him know how you feel and declaring not supporting his future works, may be that would make you people feel better? trust me, he can understand anything google translate can handle, I mean, if this Negima ending is REALLY this bad for you guys, you sure don't hate it enough to stay away from it. just a hint of possible return is enough to keep you guys in a dead forum months after the series had ended.

and even if it does really end here, mangaka are not slaves or circus monkey who are obligated to perform for people's pleasure 24hrs a day no matter how popular they are, real life intervene with a manga series all the time, Ken has his reason for ending Negima the Kodansha version the way it is, what is the reason, since he has not gone public I have no idea, if all you are so frustrated because a mangaka needs to take a long break in between, then I really hope you aren't following HxH and FSS, 2 of the more popular manga in history with breaks calculated in 'years", (FSS starts in 1986 with only 12 books completed, mind you.) Ken at least has the decency to put an ending point on the series instead of leaving the story hanging. I, as a fan of FSS, (which has 10 times the story complexity of Negima) has long ago giving up the hope of able to see the end of FSS in my life time.

Ugh. Not the "mangaka aren't slaves" defense. Please spare me.

Are mangaka slaves? No. Do they have the responsibility to make an acceptable story? Yes. Let's face the music here, these guys aren't fanfiction writes who provide free entertainment. These are people who make a product and as such have a standard to uphold to their paying customers. No, you can't please everyone, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse to hide behind what is simply bad storytelling, and it certainly does not, in in shape, way or form, place them above criticism.

So please, please spare me the "mangaka aren't slaves" defense. It holds no valid facts or observations in relation to the quality of the story whatsoever and in no way does it show that the ending isn't... well... bad. It's an empty defense meant to appeal to a sense of pity to shut up the opposition which, I have to say, is a pretty cowardly way of trying to win an argument.

The rest of your post was quite the baseless accusation. What? Are you assuming we think all of Negima is bad now? No! We still like Negima, we just believe that this ending is utter crap, even for a sequel hook. The sports arc is still a waste of chapters, Asuna's drama was still a mess of Deus Ex and the ending is still a load of "wait what?" Far better spots for the ending exist, but the current one is just a cheap attempt at covering for himself in case he doesn't start a sequel. And don't get me wrong, I'm all for a sequel (hell I was the first to throw out the theory in this thread), but that doesn't change that the current ending is just bad.

And do try to see the difference between criticism and complaints. Ours is most assuredly the former.

but you still care enough to bitch err, post how unsatisfied you are, ACG would call that tsundere tendency I believe.

No, Tsundere is bitching while secretly caring. This is me as customer ranting the deteriorating quality of the franchise - a customer who will hold my grudge to the grave. I don't care about Akamatsu anymore - the days of me believing that he is actually better than most mangakas out there is long over. Don't you dare put words in my mouth.

And the only reason I don't burn my books is because I never burn books, even the old ones. but make no mistake, hell will freeze before I buy the rest of it.

So please, please spare me the "mangaka aren't slaves" defense. It holds no valid facts or observations in relation to the quality of the story whatsoever and in no way does it show that the ending isn't... well... bad.
...
And do try to see the difference between criticism and complaints. Ours is most assuredly the former.

since you conveniently ignore my statement, I would remind you again in quotation,

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it would be valid if it is REALLY the end of Negima, and as we now confirmed with 38, it MIGHT NOT,

now with a possibility of continuation, none of your "criticisms" are valid, the fact you and others keep harping on the "bad ending" making them frivolous complaints, guess what? Negima had NOT ended, says who? says the author, does that mean we will have a Negima 2? no, it is not guarantee, but who else is a more reliable source for thing like this than the author himself?

need I remind you the most important quote in Ken's statements? "hopefully when you read the future Negima, ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED." did he know he left an incomplete work on the table and walk away? of course, did he know the readers will get pissed, sure, no common sense mangaka is that stupid or naive, Ken knows all that, then the question is, why did he go ahead and do that anyway?

trust me, if Negima definitely ended at 38 the way it is WITH NO PROPER CAUSE, I will join you guys months ago in bashing it, but a blind guy could have seen something is up behind the scenes, so I decide to wait for more information, and truth to be told there are still not enough info to make a proper judgement, but don't you realize it is no longer such a black and white issue? only a fool would not let new information to possibiliy change his opinion, and so, are you a fool?

and yes, I would still say this even if it is not popular here, Ken did not own anyone anything, this is a free capitalist society we are talking about, Ken has something to sell, we like it and buy it, does not mean Ken is obligated to keep on selling it just because we had giving him money, he can stop anytime he wants with any reasons or even no reason at all, that is his free right, and of course he will absorb damages to his reputation and future sales, that is the only way we buyer/readers can check and balance the system, but if he doesn't give a darn? there is absolutely nothing wrong with him or us, he won't get any of our future money, we won't get any of his future work, that is the way it works,

or the short version? get over it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Especially the g*ddamn shota-rape attempt arc.

if you really feel that, like I say, go ahead and write to Ken, he won't know how strong you personally feel until you tell him,

(that I mark down as a culture gap between Japanese readers and international readers, I had read many Japanese blogs, none are offend by it, I personally thought it was funny, shocking? yes, but how else are you going to carry through the onion in the butt joke (which is part of the JAPAN CULTURE) that has foreshadows all the way back to the Wilhelm arc? of course they censor Ken from using the "crazy" word because they were unacceptable in Japan, and we will probably think they are too sensitive. remember, most Japanese and Europeans can't accept the American style guns/violence in movie, while most Americans can't accept the sex joke/culture from Japan/Europe, if this onion in butt joke is really as offensive for Japanese as for you, wouldn't you think the Japan PTA will let Ken and Kodansha feel their anger long before now?

beside, Ken has an out, the onion did not physically penetrate, it was all magic that simulate the effects, (think Ako's needle) which explains the untorn pants, I guess just the image is too graphic for some?)

1. condescending and mocking? no no, just trying to be humorous, and obviously not working? (can't people tell the purpose of smiley placement anymore?) I guess people who has a torch to burn can see flame in every sparkle.

2. I have no cause on this, I am merely posting my opinions, just like you did yours, and like I say above, neither your or mine opinions would change anything, and there are always people who disagree with you, I understand all that, but it sure seems like I am the only one who say "nay" on a lynch party? (please note, duly used.)

Oy vey, not this again. Look, we all understand that Akamatsu could have made a better and more conclusive ending, but what's done is done and arguing about it is not going to change it. Saying whether or not you'll read any sequel story is not determined until it comes out, so complaining about that now is pointless.

I have other things I want to say but it's really late and I'm tired, so I'll save it for later.

Akamatsu did a crappy job with the ending. Even if it turns out to not be the permanent ending... We are told a bunch of characters go into space. Okay, great. Why do we care? What is so great about space in these characters' eyes? There was one mention near the end of the Demon World being Venus, but what, besides Venus and Mars, is so fascinating about space? Scientists find space interesting. People in the real world can find space interesting. The characters we knew only cared about space because of the problem with the Magical World. And then, suddenly, at the end, space matters! Why? Are there aliens? Aliens could have been cool.

If it was just a, "And so, the Ala Alba move forward, onto a new plane of adventure," type thing, it would have been fine. Then, yes, we'd still be stuck with a million unresolved issues, but there would be this idea that the adventure goes on. With the way things were done... geez, I don't know. I don't understand why people keep saying it was an obvious sequel hook. It bored me out of my mind.

There is so much I hate about the ending. I don't care if it turns out not to be the "real" ending, I still think these chapters are incredibly boring, derail characters, and don't add anything of value to the overall plot.

And then there's Chao. Suddenly deciding that time travel is the alternate reality sort is a really stupid idea. In the future, Akamatsu might come up with something to make it make some kind of sense, but right now, it just makes things needlessly complicated.

Actually thinking about what would happen if Akamatsu continued Negima (this version, not some alternate universe), the set-up makes really little sense. Hundreds of chapters of straightforward plot with no timeskips. Then, at the very end, he jumps all over. Worse, he tells us the fates of certain characters.

For a real ending, knowing everyone's fate is a relief. For a break, it's very, very bad. The options are basically, A. Go back and cover the gap that broke up the storytelling, and have the readers all know the general framework of the ending (admittedly, this is not automatically bad, it just rubs me, personally, the wrong way), or B. Cover the time after the "Where Are They Now?" segments.

My problem with B is that at that point, we no longer know the characters. With a timeskip that big, the characters should be different people. They should have gone through new trials (that we missed [point in favor of A, sadly]) and grown up. At that point, why do we want to follow their adventures?

One of the things that makes following characters appealing is that you get to watch them grow. They learn. Grownup characters have lessons to learn too, of course, but if you see the characters you followed as teenagers thirteen years later, you, as a reader, are naturally going to have a hard time seeing them develop, simply because they were supposed to have done their development back in the first series.

It's a little unreasonable, since humans don't learn everything they need to know by their fifteenth birthday, but... Speaking as a reader, if, say, Setsuna still worries about whether or not it's okay to be happy after a major timeskip, it would seriously annoy me. But at the same time, if you introduce new, natural problems to the characters, there's this feeling that they aren't quite the same characters. The issues these people tackle are part of what makes them, them. Once they've moved onto something new, they're different.

Which is good. That's fiction. People are supposed to grow and confront new issues. But the issues the characters will face over a decade later should be different than the ones they face as teenagers. The problem is, if they're facing different issues, and there's not a clear path leading from their old ones to their new ones, what's the point? They might as well be different people, and in that case it makes just as much sense to start a brand new series.

It is very easy (erm, sort of) to sow the seeds of future issues near the end of an arc. But Akamatsu didn't do that.

Here is perhaps the thing that's most bothersome (to me) about all of the optimism that is popping up about a future for Negima: Regardless of your opinion on the ending, and even if it will stay the ending, it was very, very clearly designed as an ending. A bunch of stuff was ignored, but personally, I was left with the distinct impression that the series might as well have a large RESOLVED stamp printed on it.

Again, this might just be me, but I was not left with the feeling that it was a sequel hook. The feeling I got was that, for better or worse, this was Negima's ending. Ideas that possibly had the potential to be interesting popped up, but honestly, the second we got into all of the things the class would go on to do, it felt like a proper ending chapter.

If Akamatsu were to rewrite things starting from the end of the Magical World arc (sadly leaving no room for rewriting the Setsuna/Tsukuyomi fight), that would be one thing, and I would gladly welcome it. But continuing what he already has? He ended it. It was not particularly graceful, but it feels ended to me.

Really, the final chapter is the sort of thing quite a few series would love to have for their endings. The problem is that the preceding chapters don't lead neatly into that conclusion.

Kind of getting at the subject at hand... I don't see a problem with people complaining about Negima's ending, even with the new information that more could be coming out of the series, because in my opinion, this particular version of Negima is ended. An alternate universe version could show up, and a sequel is possible, but this version had its ending, and it wasn't that great.

Er, as a note to anyone who bothered to read the spoilered material, it's late here, so I've elected not to reread it. If there's about a hundred contradictory rambling sentences... well, I think I got to what I really meant near the end.

since you conveniently ignore my statement, I would remind you again in quotation,

I did not ignore it, in fact I did reply to it. To repeat:

"We just believe that this ending is utter crap, even for a sequel hook. The sports arc is still a waste of chapters, Asuna's drama was still a mess of Deus Ex and the ending is still a load of "wait what?" Far better spots for the ending exist, but the current one is just a cheap attempt at covering for himself in case he doesn't start a sequel. And don't get me wrong, I'm all for a sequel (hell I was the first to throw out the theory in this thread), but that doesn't change that the current ending is just bad."

Now with that out of the way, let's dive into the details once more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hata

now with a possibility of continuation, none of your "criticisms" are valid, the fact you and others keep harping on the "bad ending" making them frivolous complaints, guess what? Negima had NOT ended, says who? says the author, does that mean we will have a Negima 2? no, it is not guarantee, but who else is a more reliable source for thing like this than the author himself?

Just because there will be a continuation does not change that the sports arc was a wase of chapters that could have been used wrapping up this arc and ripped several characters largely out of character.

Just because there will be a continuation does not change that the Asuna sealing was one big pile of overblown drama destroyed by its Deus Ex Machina ending (as much as I like Chao).

You keep saying "there will be a sequel, your complaints are irrelevant" but you never explain how a sequel will magically fix all this mess we got. The only thing a continuation can do is build on what's already there, which means that the plotholes and badly written arcs are there to stay.

It will not fix the wasted chapters, the warped characters, the irrelevant drama or the Deus Ex solutions.

I just think it's a crappy sequel hook. Just because you're making a sequel, even with a cliffhanger, doesn't mean you shouldn't provide closure for the first part, and said closure should not be raising more questions than answers. That defies the point of closure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hata

and yes, I would still say this even if it is not popular here, Ken did not own anyone anything, this is a free capitalist society we are talking about, Ken has something to sell, we like it and buy it, does not mean Ken is obligated to keep on selling it just because we had giving him money, he can stop anytime he wants with any reasons or even no reason at all, that is his free right, and of course he will absorb damages to his reputation and future sales, that is the only way we buyer/readers can check and balance the system, but if he doesn't give a darn? there is absolutely nothing wrong with him or us, he won't get any of our future money, we won't get any of his future work, that is the way it works,

or the short version? get over it.

My issue with the "he can do whatever he wants" argument is that it adds nothing to the debate. The entire point of criticism is to debate the pro's and cons of a story, but saying "well he can do whatever he wants" doesn't add anything to that. Or change anything, really. Yes, Ken could have chosen to make earth explode for no good reason. That doesn't change that such an ending would have been even worse than the current one.