Post by benar on May 17, 2019 22:01:20 GMT -5

Is your goal on this board to always find a way to automatically dispute and put down other's beliefs.....you just told someone to be open minded in a reply, but you aren't being that yourself.

I can see why you may think that, but let me explain.Being open-minded doesn’t mean believing anything, nor does it mean automatically respecting other people’s beliefs. It simply means being willing to change your mind when the evidence shows there’s a reason to do so. I suspect you’ll find the great majority of atheists are not unwilling to believe in a god, it’s just that evidence has not been presented to do so. I understand that believers feel strongly that they do in fact have evidence, but what is commonly misunderstood is that there are standards of evidence and logical fallacies to be aware of. The most common argument I see from theists is an argument from personal experience. The trouble is, a Christian will ‘prove’ the existence of Yahweh through their own personal experience, a Muslim will do similar with Allah and a Hindu with Vishnu. This demonstrates that personal experience is not a reliable way to determine what is true. So reading the Bible and finding it resonates with you unfortunately means nothing in the quest for what is true.There may be good evidence out there for a god, but so far none has ever been given.

Re-read your post, substituting Allah for God, Mohammad for Jesus and Koran for Bible. If your post doesn’t convince you to convert to Islam, it’s not a convincing argument to make in defence of your own religion.

Post by sunshine on May 18, 2019 22:46:47 GMT -5

Is your goal on this board to always find a way to automatically dispute and put down other's beliefs.....you just told someone to be open minded in a reply, but you aren't being that yourself.

I can see why you may think that, but let me explain.Being open-minded doesn’t mean believing anything, nor does it mean automatically respecting other people’s beliefs. It simply means being willing to change your mind when the evidence shows there’s a reason to do so. I suspect you’ll find the great majority of atheists are not unwilling to believe in a god, it’s just that evidence has not been presented to do so. I understand that believers feel strongly that they do in fact have evidence, but what is commonly misunderstood is that there are standards of evidence and logical fallacies to be aware of. The most common argument I see from theists is an argument from personal experience. The trouble is, a Christian will ‘prove’ the existence of Yahweh through their own personal experience, a Muslim will do similar with Allah and a Hindu with Vishnu. This demonstrates that personal experience is not a reliable way to determine what is true. So reading the Bible and finding it resonates with you unfortunately means nothing in the quest for what is true.There may be good evidence out there for a god, but so far none has ever been given.

OK, that makes sense. Thank you for your explanation. I guess something based on personal faith can't be proven with evidence and facts, so that eliminates all those who are only able to use facts for their beliefs. I'm sorry to accuse you of anything, but at the same time I wish you could use peoples faith and experiences as something to to believe.

Post by benar on May 19, 2019 7:34:33 GMT -5

I have no problem accepting that other people believe their personal experiences to be true. It's not so much about refuting believers' experiences, but getting people to see that there may be other explanations and that personal experience is actually a very week form of evidence. If something goes right in someones life, they are likely to attribute their good fortune to Yahweh, Allah, their dead grandmother's spirit or the crystals in their room. To each person, their experience is a strong indicator that their beliefs are true, but they can't all be correct. This demonstrates that personal experience is not a reliable way to tell what is true. So if the only real 'evidence' believers have of their god is their personal experience, we can see that it is not really evidence at all.

Anyway... back to Allan Kitto and his (non) apology...

Re-read your post, substituting Allah for God, Mohammad for Jesus and Koran for Bible. If your post doesn’t convince you to convert to Islam, it’s not a convincing argument to make in defence of your own religion.

Post by nathan on May 19, 2019 8:30:26 GMT -5

Is your goal on this board to always find a way to automatically dispute and put down other's beliefs.....you just told someone to be open minded in a reply, but you aren't being that yourself.

Right on, Sunshine... Here is my Savior/God promises for the BELIEVERS in Him. The atheists and unbelievers are going to miss out the Marriage/Wedding supper of the Lamb of God in heaven with His believers who put their TRUST and Faith in Him.

Rev. 19:6-9 6 And I/John the apostle heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thundering, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife/God's people hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Post by slowtosee on May 19, 2019 9:25:12 GMT -5

I have no problem accepting that other people believe their personal experiences to be true. It's not so much about refuting believers' experiences, but getting people to see that there may be other explanations and that personal experience is actually a very week form of evidence. If something goes right in someones life, they are likely to attribute their good fortune to Yahweh, Allah, their dead grandmother's spirit or the crystals in their room. To each person, their experience is a strong indicator that their beliefs are true, but they can't all be correct. This demonstrates that personal experience is not a reliable way to tell what is true. So if the only real 'evidence' believers have of their god is their personal experience, we can see that it is not really evidence

True , Personal experience , is a very weak “form of evidence” , but very believable , nonetheless. Scientifically , or in a court of law , it would be very difficult to prove my wife loves me , vice versa , but I’ll just accept the weak evidence and believe it , enjoying the benefits and if we both are somehow scientifically or otherwise proven wrong in our “beliefs “ that we love each other , so be it , we were wrong , but was a nice personal experience anyhow .

Post by snow on May 19, 2019 15:21:04 GMT -5

True , Personal experience , is a very weak “form of evidence” , but very believable , nonetheless. Scientifically , or in a court of law , it would be very difficult to prove my wife loves me , vice versa , but I’ll just accept the weak evidence and believe it , enjoying the benefits and if we both are somehow scientifically or otherwise proven wrong in our “beliefs “ that we love each other , so be it , we were wrong , but was a nice personal experience anyhow .

Alvin

Alvin, I hear proof of love used as something that can't be based on evidence but it's not actually a very good example. When an experience is something that is based on an entity that no one has seen or has any evidence for, (supernatural) that's a bit different from a person who you can present as existing. We humans also have a criteria for what showing love looks like. Again, you can prove that your wife exists, that she openly does things others can see that are examples of what humans do when performing loving acts. To prove it 100% of course is impossible, but at least we have a real person and real outward acts that we can attribute to be loving, therefore there is a good possibility that your wife loves you.

I accept that people have experiences. How they interpret those experiences they attribute to the supernatural is what I question because of lack of evidence. I don't question that they believe it totally and feel they are experiencing it. I once thought I did too. It felt very real and based on what I'd been taught, I didn't think it was unreasonable. That has changed for me now. I look back at all the things I experienced and interpreted as God and realize that I have no evidence that it really was anything supernatural. JMT

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by magpie1 on May 19, 2019 19:33:23 GMT -5

Lot of chatter here that has no relavence to the "Alan Kito" letter that was supposed to seek out and fire the Australian(hopefully worldwide)2x2 Bro/Sister criminal mentally disordered life destroying PAEDOPLILES and other sexual predators including hetro/homosexuals.But,the letter, it is "nothing" isn't it.They have said it's contents many time before?? So why can't people remain on track( a 2x2 habit from ministry through to followers)and keep at Snow,Kito,Leitch and others,to protect the vulnerable youth and the little children,of your sect?? If you don't you are allowing the sneaky predators to remain and be just a bit more sneaky,"DON'T"have their sins/blood on your hands. "Please for Jesus and the Body of Christ's (Church's) sake". Magpie

Post by Dennis J on May 19, 2019 22:33:19 GMT -5

Imagine if YOU had your beloved mate die, knew YOU could not live alone, so, because of previous answered prayers you turned to your God, and that God did for you what He has done for me, in answer to your begging Him, would YOU not trust Him, or deny even His possible existence?

Sure, to defend your previous belief, you might be too proud to even admit the possibility He is. That is understandable, as I have that very same human nature. However, for me, He is. Simple, concise and secure. Do I expect any such person to change on my say so alone? Of course not.

This is only posted because of the sharp denial of me, my God, and what I have proven for myself. Yes, there has been a great deal that I have not yet understood. Smile, but what about the times when He has proven Himself immediately to me? Once I really felt badly about those of you choosing not to believe either me, nor my own experience: now I just heave a sad sigh and move on, responding only from time to time, as I have here, when anyone declares they cannot understand anyone as dumb as I for believing such nonsense.

I know in whom I have believed and am fully persuaded He is able, to keep that which I have committed to Him against that day!

Post by chuck on May 20, 2019 0:52:31 GMT -5

We want to be in touch with you all, to address any confusion that may have arisen regarding how we deal with child sexual abuse cases. (CSA)

All the matters raised in the media had already been dealt with by the legal authorities.

All our workers have already received professional training on what action to take in the event of any allegations of inappropriate behavior toward children. We will continue to abide by all legal reporting requirements.

We will also continue to support any official investigation into such matters and the outcomes that they arrive at.

Yours sincerely

Allan Kittoon behalf of the NSW Staff3 May 2019

What proffesional training? does anyone have any insight on this?. We already know what action to take with these allegstions although obviously some for whatever reason refused to take them, is Allan suggesting that other actions must be taken before taking the normal actions of going to the relevant authorities, why do the workers need proffesional training in regard to this?, if they need proffesional training in regards to this how on earth do they expect me or anyone to take their so called responsibility for our salvation seriously?.

Post by Ross.Bowden on May 20, 2019 3:06:25 GMT -5

I understand based on information provided by a couple of people who know that it was this US based course - ministrysafe.com/ and was undertaken around 5 years ago. I understand a senior US worker recommended that they do it when he was over for conventions.

It is not known whether new workers have to undertake this course before they start in the work.

It is standard practice for anyone involved with children in churches to do safe ministry training (local courses) every 3 years.

I was talking to a professing person the other day and they have received no information on any training or child safe practices undertaken by workers here before Mr Kitto's statement - which was issued in response to the Sixty Minutes program.

There are four issues being discussed amongst a number of friends:

- what policies are in place to guide workers and for them to adhere to - none at this stage- what safe ministry training has been undertaken - and if this is overseas training how is it customised to local practices/laws? - unknown (training details provided above)- how are victims of Child Sexual Abuse treated and cared for - they are currently treated very poorly, not believed and palmed off - as highlighted by the program- how are grave past mistakes corrected - they are not. There is more to say on this last point in due course.

Post by nathan on May 20, 2019 7:54:10 GMT -5

I understand based on information provided by a couple of people who know that it was this US based course - ministrysafe.com/ and was undertaken around 5 years ago. I understand a senior US worker recommended that they do it when he was over for conventions.

It is not known whether new workers have to undertake this course before they start in the work.

It is standard practice for anyone involved with children in churches to do safe ministry training (local courses) every 3 years.

I was talking to a professing person the other day and they have received no information on any training or child safe practices undertaken by workers here before Mr Kitto's statement - which was issued in response to the Sixty Minutes program.

There are four issues being discussed amongst a number of friends:

- what policies are in place to guide workers and for them to adhere to - none at this stage- what safe ministry training has been undertaken - and if this is overseas training how is it customised to local practices/laws? - unknown (training details provided above)- how are victims of Child Sexual Abuse treated and cared for - they are currently treated very poorly, not believed and palmed off - as highlighted by the program- how are grave past mistakes corrected - they are not. There is more to say on this last point in due course.

About 10 yrs ago, I talked to Lyle S. the overseer in Texas, USA at our convention in Oregon about CSA safe course training for the workers on his staff and I encouraged him to share the information with other overseers on this subject.

He came to TMB and posted a few times about what he knew on CSA. I believe most of the workers in USA have taken safe ministry courses or read a lot of the information on CSA, they have been inform that they must report CSA to the authority instead of the overseers.

Post by thelight on May 21, 2019 0:40:58 GMT -5

There have been so many posts about CSA recently that I cannot think which one would be most appropriate to post this one, but a friend emailed me this article from her local newspaper - the mother made a "secret pact" with her church after finding out the son of two pastors had abused her daughter? Yet another cover up. I wonder if the mother/daughter benefited financially in this "pact"? All done to protect the church!

21st May 2019 5:04 AM |

A GOLD Coast mother and her church made a secret pact after she came forward with an allegation that the son of two pastors had abused her 13-year-old daughter, a court has heard.

Over the next two years, the man, in his late teens at the time, would go on to sexually assault three other girls.

Kairo Peter Nahi, 21, was sentenced in the Southport District Court yesterday to three years in prison, to be suspended after he had served eight months.

The former teaching student pleaded guilty to 13 counts of indecent treatment of a child and one count of using the internet to procure and meet a child.

Church board members provided a character reference for Nahi and the mother of the first victim later admitted she initially kept quiet to "protect church".

Crown prosecutor Gary Churchill said the girl's mother found out about the assault through social media and "an agreement was reached at church to keep them apart".

Nahi is the son of David and Louise Nahi, who are pastors at Vibe Church in Tweed Heads, and used his connections at church to meet and sexually abuse four teenage girls between 2015 and 2017. There is no suggestion the parents were aware of their son's wrongdoing.

He sent the first victim a text message: "I have other girls your age who are 12 and 13 that I can do these things to."

After finding out about her daughter being assaulted, the mother of the girl went to the pastors with the allegation and reached "an agreement" to keep them both apart.

Months later, Nahi began a Snapchat relationship with another girl who was aged 11. He sent her sexually explicit images and received a photo of her bare breasts.

Nahi convinced the girl to sneak out of home when she was 12 and touched her inappropriately and asked her to perform oral sex.

Later in 2016, Nahi grabbed a 14-year-old at his home and forced her to touch him inappropriately. After he asked to touch her, the girl said "no" and he stopped.

Nahi was eventually caught after the fourth victim, in 2017, called her sister's boyfriend in tears, the court was told. The boyfriend then told the girl's parents who went to the police.

Nahi kissed the girl and forced her to perform oral sex in a Gold Coast garage.

"The offending is relatively brief but that doesn't detract from the aggravating feature that it is somewhat predatory in nature," said Mr Churchill in summarising Nahi's offending.

Outside court, the first victim's mother said she now felt "regret and guilt" for going to the church and not the police in the first instance.

The mother said she was upset the church's board had provided a reference for Nahi.

"All the church's support is for him and not the girls," she said. "I feel like my daughter and I are worth more."

Nahi's barrister Chris Wilson, instructed by Guest Lawyers, said Nahi had to give up his aspirations of becoming a teacher. He said Nahi had been to a psychologist since the incident.

Mr Wilson said Nahi had been attacked by one of the girl's family members and posters of his face had been put up around the Gold Coast.

Judge Catherine Muir said vigilante justice was "unacceptable". But she said his actions had a "devastating" affect on the girls.

Ms Muir ordered he be placed on probation for 18 months after release from prison.

Post by fixit on May 21, 2019 15:25:30 GMT -5

"All the church's support is for him and not the girls," she said. "I feel like my daughter and I are worth more."

This tends to happen due to ignorance of CSA.

Victim blaming.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by magpie1 on May 21, 2019 21:41:37 GMT -5

G'day Curly,So right. They sent two active known paedophiles from here to South America,to keep the Kingdom of Irvine's ministry from being revealed by what is amongst them,cancerous criminal CSA,active homosexual/lesbians,adultrers and sexual predators . One of these two copped 6months jail after returning,the other one has "had"to graciously resign? The second one on return was placed with a partner who had been sent home from Queensland for his sexual history,the same reason he was sent to Queensland in the first place. . What about victims by these two while in S'America?? Yet can you believe it people are still supporting them? Magpie

Post by thelight on May 21, 2019 22:15:50 GMT -5

Unfortunately yes, I can. Many of these perpetrators have bright, warm personalities to draw people in & create trust. Even when convicted people still think they are great & do not want to believe they have done any wrong.

They also like to say they have been wrongly convicted & deny all wrong doing.

I know of one instance where the perpetrator stated that it was gods will for him to be convicted so he could be jailed to "spread the gospel" to other inmates. He's being supported by "friends".... living with them in fact because he is currently unable to return to his home due to parole conditions. And he was staying with other "friends" prior to that. Now that I've written it down he almost sounds like a worker!!

Post by magpie1 on May 23, 2019 1:17:28 GMT -5

Oh He who hides the Truth=Nathan,what do you say to 2x2s Chris Chandler 6 victims declared=6 months jail,Ernie Barry 2x2s Gossip has him at around 30 victims=6 months jail, Cardinal George Pell RCC known and charged 2x victims=6 years jail.Barry 2x2s followers donations hired a very expensive Crimnal psychologist to have his charge suspended.... Magpie

Post by James on Jun 16, 2019 1:10:30 GMT -5

According to a poster on the "Professing Open Air" group, there are friends and even elders who are upset with Allan's letter.

This is correct. A number of elders and friends have expressed in writing their extreme disappointment on how CSA matters have been dealt with over the years, with a particular focus on Allan Kitto. Allan Kitto’s statement has not been well received.

Graham Snow and Wayne Dean were in Sydney last week to meet with NSW workers and some elders. They were both at Sydney special meetings last Sunday.

Apparently Wayne Dean and David Saunders will be rolling out a number of long overdue initiatives in relation to child safety over coming months. It seems like Allan Kitto will (not surprisingly) play no part in this. There are some suggestions he may be demoted and moved to another state. People who know Allan Kitto well say he will dig in and not go easily.

Post by Pragmatic on Jun 16, 2019 2:25:50 GMT -5

According to a poster on the "Professing Open Air" group, there are friends and even elders who are upset with Allan's letter.

This is correct. A number of elders and friends have expressed in writing their extreme disappointment on how CSA matters have been dealt with over the years, with a particular focus on Allan Kitto. Allan Kitto’s statement has not been well received.

Graham Snow and Wayne Dean were in Sydney last week to meet with NSW workers and some elders. They were both at Sydney special meetings last Sunday.

Apparently Wayne Dean and David Saunders will be rolling out a number of long overdue initiatives in relation to child safety over coming months. It seems like Allan Kitto will (not surprisingly) play no part in this. There are some suggestions he may be demoted and moved to another state. People who know Allan Kitto well say he will dig in and not go easily.

Incredible, for one who goes by the name of Servant. It is also a disservice to the victims. In the corporate world, he would be expected to fall on his sword. But he obviously doesn’t have a “righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees”.

Post by openingact34 on Jun 16, 2019 13:04:16 GMT -5

According to a poster on the "Professing Open Air" group, there are friends and even elders who are upset with Allan's letter.

This is correct. A number of elders and friends have expressed in writing their extreme disappointment on how CSA matters have been dealt with over the years, with a particular focus on Allan Kitto. Allan Kitto’s statement has not been well received.

I wish these "saints" would save their phony outrage. I have even less respect for them than I do for Mr. Kitto. At least he behaves consistently, as a thoroughly brainwashed "true believer".

The elders and friends have known about these cases and worse for decades. When do they get all upset and indignant? Only when the media exposes it to their worldling employers and neighbors.

If you want to be a cult member, then buck up develop a backbone like Mr. Kitto has. Otherwise, get the hell out.

Post by fixit on Jun 16, 2019 15:14:25 GMT -5

According to a poster on the "Professing Open Air" group, there are friends and even elders who are upset with Allan's letter.

This is correct. A number of elders and friends have expressed in writing their extreme disappointment on how CSA matters have been dealt with over the years, with a particular focus on Allan Kitto. Allan Kitto’s statement has not been well received.

Graham Snow and Wayne Dean were in Sydney last week to meet with NSW workers and some elders. They were both at Sydney special meetings last Sunday.

Apparently Wayne Dean and David Saunders will be rolling out a number of long overdue initiatives in relation to child safety over coming months. It seems like Allan Kitto will (not surprisingly) play no part in this. There are some suggestions he may be demoted and moved to another state. People who know Allan Kitto well say he will dig in and not go easily.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Shoutbox

wally: proboards can be a bit buggy...i still get virus warnings when clicking on thread links...Feb 26, 2020 22:04:28 GMT -5

ant_rotten: Does anyone else constantly have a pop up saying “do you want to download index.html” when using TMB desktop version? This happens to me both on my iPhone and iPad.. Feb 26, 2020 19:56:33 GMT -5

wally: you haven't asked me a question or anything or did i miss one?Feb 20, 2020 6:03:05 GMT -5