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I like this thread... I think overall that the luster is off international players (finally)... it was another fad (kinda like the HS player fad before the age limit)... everyone tries to be smarter than the next GM... and some guys (ahem IT) outsmart themselves... also, being drafted in the top 15 does not mean that you are expected to be a starter Metro... Not picking sides with either camp really... but what constitutes a bust? failing to meet expectations? Failing the league? I think a bust should be any player who was taken when someone more talented was still available...

that being said... I don't think it's fair to call guys a bust who haven't been in the league for at least 5 years (Kobe, KG, JO didn't make an impact right away)... Let's analyze 2003 (international players in bold)...

1 James, LeBronLeBron James* (SF) USA Cleveland Cavaliers St. Vincent - St. Mary High School (Akron, OH) - Kinda disproved the whole age limit thing in the year of its inception

so out of the 9 international players taken (not every international player is European)... only 4 (Pietrus, Diaw, Barbosa, Pavlovic) are not busts after 5 years in the league... 12 of the 20 american players were not busts... 60% of the American first round and 45% of the international players taken in the first round were busts... and this was a DEEP draft... one of the best in the last 20 years...

It doesn't matter where you start off... so much is required to help a player reach his potential... experience coming in... maturity... work ethic... team leadership... expectations... I think if you check draft history, you'll notice a similar trend of 45% success rates for every draft class... or about 25 players from any given draft year will have successful NBA careers

Sorry I didnt respond so quickly...like loose change over here...I actually have a life.

Peja...playing in the Greek league? Man that's like saying your the true National College Football Champions...but ohh wait Division II. Funny how his career playoff scoring average sinks terribly...from his regular season one.

Dirk Nowitski helped his team reach First German division? Too bad with all those leadership skills it could not equate to an NBA championship...when you had more talent, better players, younger players...and more in depth of a bench when you were the CLEAR FAVORITE. And then meanwhile same thing happens again..and you lost to an undersized team in Oakland..and kicks your ass all over the court.

Pau Gasol dominant in the ABC league? Once again, not real competition. Where was all this flair and great skills in the Finals? Kobe had to carry that **** by himself since they made the playoffs. And he was supposed to be the missing link to earn Phil another title.

Andrei Kirilenko...what have you done for me lately? Not a damned thing. You have no fire, no aggressivness. You have mounds of talent on the team, and yet everynight don't give it everything you got to help the team win. Maybe your wife is letting you have too many threesomes and you can't focus on basketball.

Manu Ginobil best SG behind Kobe? I'd say he plays on the most talented team in the West behind Kobe. If he did not have Tim Duncan to lean on...then you'd be able to talk. Because if you take away Duncan...he's not the SG you start the franchise with tomorrow as your starter. Maybe your 6th man. But not your starting SG.

Yao Ming just can't never seem to stay healthy enough to do anything noteworthy in the playoffs. Yes, grant you he has the numbers...but outside of that. Once the regular season is over nothing. And yeah, he's getting injured as per his contract states that he must leave Tracy McGrady to carry this club by himself when it counts.

Tony Parker..once again see Tim Duncan. Can name several PG's ahead of him now. Then again his game ain't been the same since he got married, which is always a jinx. So he get's a slight pass.

Yi Jianlian...jury maybe still out. But he hasn't had the Yao Ming atleast type impact in the regular season...you'd expect from what was he a 6th overall pick?? 3pt range..and all that don't mean **** in the NBA for a CENTER. That position is about banging and controlling the paint...ain't enough meat on that boy to handle it. Mehmet Okur has similar skills...and no one considers him a dominant Center just a well versed power forward who can shoot the 3 ball.

Shaq hasn't been TOP 5 for a while since he left L.A. really...but at the end of they day you know he's going to give you what he has got and not disappear like some of these European players, who give you all 82 games...but cant get it together for 16.

Luis Scola folded in the playoffs this past season. Shot damn near 10% less in the playoffs. The **** is up with that? And don't tell me that not significant to you. You are part of the same pussies..I mean posse that said having Marbury give us another 11% was ****ing huge!

Andrew Bogut...hasn't had a real impact. To be a #1 OVERALL pick....seriosuly even Milwaukee still ain't feeling him. Chris Paul has accomplished more than him...and they were in the same draft. Deron Williams, Francisco Garcia, and Monta Ellis..all taken after this loser.

Far far away from the orgy that consist of clyde, 8's, rady, smokes and rono

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You always say the same thing.

He "folds in the playoffs"

First of all, we know you're unemployed. Only unemployed people try to convince others online that they work; because its important for them.

What do you know about the Greek League, you *******?
Nothing, so shut it.

Dirk lead his team to the NBA finals and has been the best player on one of the best teams in the team in the last 5-7 years. He's succeeded more than 95% of the players in the NBA and is a top 5-10 player.

You're hating is played out and repetitive.

Once again, you know nothing about international basketball.

ACB is the toughest league outside of the NBA and Euroleague. Most scouts would agree, as well as many NBA GM's and Scouts.

NCAA basketball isn't even on the level of Euro-League.

Didn't a Euroleague team beat the Raptors last time?

Lakers made the Finals without their center prospect.

Boston was just too good, regardless. Lakers wouldn't be in the finals without Gasol.

"what have you done for me lately? "

You sound like a faggot in need of ****.

AK47 is still a good player, one of the best role players in the NBA.

Ginobili is the best SG in the NBA behind Kobe Byrant.
He's unselfish and can still dominate a game. He can play many roles for rip and everyone in the NBA knows he could put up superstar numbers if given Crawford type minutes.
For you to question Ginobili makes you a ****ing moron. He's suceeded in every league he's been.

Ginobili is a winner and one of the most exciting guys to watch in the league.

The **** you hating for? Did a bunch of Euros run a train on your mother to some weird ass Euro techo?
Calm the **** down with your emotional post, there is zero facts in your post.

Yao was definitely worth the number one pick, unlike a couple of other American bust pointed out in this thread.

Parker, top 10 PG.

Yi isn't a center, he's a SF/PF. Do your research.

Okur was a former all star, shut up.

Scola was a rookie and still averaged 14 and 9 for the Rockets.

Scola will be 15 and 10 player in the NBA, just like he was in EUROPE. Its funny because he'll average better numbers in the NBA than Europe.

NBA defense is more soft, where Euro has war-like rugged defense which reminds you off 80's NBA basketball.

Andrew Bogut just got signed to a nice fat contract by the Bucks, what you mean they aint feeling him?

5-yr/$60mm Guaranteed + $12.5mm possible bonuses

Could this be the first post in Knicksonline history where a poster is 100% wrong on everything he wrote? I think we have a winner.

You just wasted my time, everything you wrote gets killed by my first post.

Originally Posted by metrocard

You're probably the worst at understanding simple facts.

Look at the international guys without NCAA experience that have fully succeded in the NBA lately:

Predrag Stojakovic(NBA all star, one of the best shooters in NBA history) was selected in the 1996 draft, but come to the NBA until the 98-99 season. Previously he played with PAOK in the Greek League and averaged 23.9 points with very tough competition. He was on an elite team also.

Dirk Nowitzki(MVP, All star, Top 10 player) helped his team get promoted to First German Division right before being picked in the 1998 draft. He was the league's top scorer with 21.4 ppg and third rebounder with 8.4 rpg.

Pau Gasol's(All star, top 10 big man) dominance in the ACB(best league outside the NBA) League during the 2000-2001 season helped him earned MVP honours at the King's Cup, leading F.C. Barcelona to a perfect 9-0 record during the playoffs.

Andrei Kirilenko(All star, elite defensive player) was the MVP in his last season in the Russian Superleague. He averaged 19.2 points and 8.7 rebounds for Russia at the European Championships in the summer of 2001.

Yao Ming(Elite center, all star, best offensive center in the NBA since Shaq) had Chamberlain-esque stats in China the season before he was chosen by the Rockets averaged 32.4 points (with 72% on FG), 19 rebounds and 4.8 blocked shots, and lead the Shangai Sharks to their first CBA title.

Manu Ginobili(All star, NBA champion, probably the best SG in the NBA behind Kobe) won all kinds of tournaments; Euroleague, Italian league and Italian Cup) and MVP trophies before joining the Spurs in 2002(He was drafted in 1999). He led Argentina to a silver medal in Indiannapolis, making history after beating USA badly. Ginobili won a couple of championships also, making him one of the most successful basketball players in the history of basketball, winning a championship in every league he's been.

Tony Parker(All star, NBA champion, elite PG.
His last season in France with Paris Basket Racing (2000-2001), he only averaged 14.7 points and 5.6 assists. Not great numbers, but Parker always was scouted for his blazing speed. An elite athlete.

Here's the pattern.
Big accomplishers who are developed and contribute to their overseas teams and making them win against very good competition most of the time turn out to be very successful in the NBA.

Nikoloz Tskitishvili and Darko Milicic were benchwarmers in Europe. If anyone's to blame its the stupid GM's who draft these guys so high and draft proven guys like Parker and Ginobili so low. Bottom line players like those aren't ready and will never be ready to live to the expectation.
This strategy of drafting and signing immature European teenagers has backfired on many teams.

Andrea Bargnani will be just a taller Antwain Jamison without the rebounding skills.

He shouldn't be considered a bust yet.

Yi Jianlian got GAME and will produce in the NBA. He has post skills, can block shots, has freakish athlecism for a 7 footer, range from 3pt and loves to rebound and bang in the post.

Yao is # 2 behind Shaq? You don't even know your center rankings.

Dwight Howard is the best center in the NBA. Or Even Amare.
Yao was number 1 for a while also.
Shaq hasn't been the same and isn't even a top 5 center in the NBA no more, where you been?

Arroyo is a C+ level PG, undrafted. No one expected him to make the NBA and he still managed to produce respectfully in the league.

Luis Scola is a NBA rookie who averaged 14 PPG and 9.3 rebounds in the PLAYOFFS, you said he only does work in the REG season. Damn, you are wrong again, no suprise.
Luis Scola was another SUCESSFUL EUROLEAGUE player who made the all rookie team and will continue to be a very good starter for the Rockets next to Yao.

I bet if Oden was from FRANCE, you would be calling him out for being "Too soft" and use that for the reason why he missed the whole year.

You're trying too hard.
Not coming with the facts.
Failing miserably with each sentence you write.

Peja is a career 18 and 5 player and was drafted 14th overall...STFU. Theres more American BUST in the playoffs too, do I have to call them out to make a point? Not even you are that dumb to not realize it.
But I'm going to do that.

Here's trivia for you.
Who was the best player at 14 in the last 10 years in the NBA Draft?
AN INTERNATIONAL PLAYER FROM YUGOSLAVIA
Dude, 9 of those American BUST don't even combine together to have the career Peja had. I just pointed out more bust than you did in one simple point. You think I'm done? LOL...theres a reason why dudes avoid to get in debates with me here, the facts I bring are HEAVY.

2003 was one of the greatest drafts in NBA history.
Sweetney though.
T.J. Ford didn't live up to hype, got traded 3 times already.
Hinrich is average.
Jarvis Hayes?
Marcus Banks is a scrub
Collinson is average
Troy Bell and Reece Gaines aren't even in the NBA.

Diaw, Barbosa, Bell are all contributors on Phoneix.
Turkyglu won most improved player and has become the vocal point on offense for the Magic. He's a 20/5/4 player.
Nicioni has been the Bulls most consistant player, ask most Bulls fans.
Jose Calderon is one of the best PG's in the NBA, T.J. Ford could be considered a BUST since he was traded 3 times already and hasn't lived up to expectations.
Parker and Garbojosa are NBA starting material.
Spurs stock piled on international talent and proved you could suceed in the NBA with European style of basketball (rugged, defensive basketball with fundamental pick and roll on offense)

I'm a NBA/Draft/Int'l basketball guru, I follow this deeply since 2004. I come heavy with the knowledge and research, so if you want to actually make this is a debate instead of a slaughter, I suggest for you to step up your weight.

The **** you expect every non-USA guy to dominate the league? You're logic is the most retarded one I seen, on some real talk. No attempt to disrespect you, I respect your post, but I never seen anyone this dumb on such a topic.

I only chose 03 cuz it was the closest draft class that qualified (5 years or more)... plus I didn't have time to research the other draft classes... but I know you get the point cuz you been trying to school these cats about it this whole time... regardless of where someone is born... talent, work ethic, maturity level, experience all play a greater role than country of origin...

and the top 15 players may be traditionally expected to be starters... but some times... teams drafting that high are drafting based on need and might be looking for a quality 6th man (don't overestimate the value of starting) or take the best available talent regardless of fit... sometimes... that talent doesn't fit a system... etc... but I do agree that the expectations of these picks is higher than the rest...

Since 03 was so exceptional... let's look at 2000... one of the worst drafts in the history of the draft (it should be noted that Mike Redd, Jake Voshkul and Marko Jaric all went in the 2nd round...

1 Kenyon Martin (PF) United States New Jersey Nets Cincinnati Sr. - BUST... should give JKidd 80% of that DEN contract... injuries, a ****ty attitude and a lack of a post game killed him...

3 Darius Miles (SF/SG) United States Los Angeles Clippers East St. Louis HS (East St. Louis, IL) HSSr. - BUST... had some shine for a little while with the Clippers there... blew his knee out and currently out of work...

7 Chris Mihm (C/PF) United States Chicago Bulls (traded to Cleveland for Jamal Crawford and cash) Texas Jr. - BUST... a number 7? for Chris Mihm... I remember there was talk that he would be a top 3 pick before the draft too...

8 Jamal Crawford (SG) United States Cleveland Cavaliers (traded to Chicago with cash for Chris Mihm) Michigan Fr. - the kid's not a bust (no matter what metro says)... a revolving door of coaches and philosophies has stymied his development... would be "underrated" as a 3rd option or 6th man...

10 Keyon Dooling (SG) United States Orlando Magic (from Denver, traded to L.A. Clippers with Corey Maggette, Derek Strong and cash for a future first-round pick) Missouri So. - has struggled to find a niche/consistent playing time during his career... currently seeking another contract...

so there you have 28% (2/7) internationals who weren't busts... Hedo, Maglore... while 28% (6/21) US players (not counting Collier) weren't busts... this is just the first round...

but again I think it further supports the ****ty talent scout theory when guys like Eric Barkley and Donnel Harvey are drafted ahead of Mike Redd... Damn... 2000 was a bad year... worse than 86? Maybe I'll investigate that...

I think 02 might be the best draft to use... since that was the last draft that the international player, high school prospect and american collegiate prospect were balanced in the first round... but that's for another post...

I rest my case. "One of the best role players in the NBA"...yeah I'm sure they got him to be just that and pay him all that starter money for.

Let's see I've barely got 200 posts...someone else has got close to 2,800....

Here's a question for ya hotshot...how many PLAYERS in the HALL OF FAME...ARE INTERNATIONAL WHEN COMPARED TO AMERICAN??

There are 134 in as PLAYERS.

ONLY 3 Are FOREIGN.

NUFF SAID!!!11

Who is spending less time at an actual job again?

Didn't think so you mental midget, surprised Marbury let you out tonight.

bahahahahahaha you will find most of the hall of fame members were before the influx of International flavour hit the NBA.
I thought this post was about International players being more hype then hope, not if you dont make the hall of fame u aint ****.
Im sure plenty of great American players aint in the hall of fame, who cares.
The whole title of the post has flunked, throwing out averages on why Interntionals are busts. Man more Americans have played in the NBA and been busts then Internationals. You will always have busts no matter where u recruit. Dirk is a gun, Parker is a finals MVP and NBA Champion, Ginobli is a top 5 SG in the league and NBA champion. This is all because the Knicks went with Gallanari and ur not happy cause u want a American playing for the Knicks. Man pull ur head out of ur arse. There was no one definitley better then him at pick 6, all possibilies only. The Knicks went with what would fit best in there game plan and roster for the next season. Let it be. If its not successful then thats fine and they should learn from it.

My question is this. I asked it before, I'll ask it again. So you an NBA GM. There is a League wide draft. Would you take Kobe first or a European player? Lebron or a European player? KG or a European player? Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Paul Pierce...you get what I'm saying. This ain't hate, it's reality. Europeans don't take half as much blame as American players do. I think this article is evidence of that. If you don't believe me, then talk to Lamar Odom, who has done a lot in Los Angeles for charity, was reduced to the 3 in L.A.'s big 3 and is blamed along with Derek Fisher for LA's Finals loss. Pau Gasol sucked. He shot blanks, but Odom gets blamed? Ridiculous and unfair.

My question is this. I asked it before, I'll ask it again. So you an NBA GM. There is a League wide draft. Would you take Kobe first or a European player? Lebron or a European player? KG or a European player? Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Paul Pierce...you get what I'm saying. This ain't hate, it's reality. Europeans don't take half as much blame as American players do. I think this article is evidence of that. If you don't believe me, then talk to Lamar Odom, who has done a lot in Los Angeles for charity, was reduced to the 3 in L.A.'s big 3 and is blamed along with Derek Fisher for LA's Finals loss. Pau Gasol sucked. He shot blanks, but Odom gets blamed? Ridiculous and unfair.

PS. ShairanXIII whats good? Welcome back.

Lets be real here, Odom stunk up the place. Gasol did not play his strongest either, MAD SOFT! But, he played as a whole much better than Odom. I can't believe Odom does not have a post game. He musta thought that tricky handle would be enough. Boston reduced him to mere matter.

Did Fisher play? I musta missed that... Or maybe Rondo of all people just swallowed him whole. Yikes.

My question is this. I asked it before, I'll ask it again. So you an NBA GM. There is a League wide draft. Would you take Kobe first or a European player? Lebron or a European player? KG or a European player? Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Paul Pierce...you get what I'm saying. This ain't hate, it's reality. Europeans don't take half as much blame as American players do. I think this article is evidence of that. If you don't believe me, then talk to Lamar Odom, who has done a lot in Los Angeles for charity, was reduced to the 3 in L.A.'s big 3 and is blamed along with Derek Fisher for LA's Finals loss. Pau Gasol sucked. He shot blanks, but Odom gets blamed? Ridiculous and unfair.

PS. ShairanXIII whats good? Welcome back.

So if there was a player in Europe that was like a Kobe, LeBron or KG would u think that a NBA GM should or shouldnt pick them? We are not talking about picking Internationals over guaranteed star players. This year there was only 3 all star calibre players and they were all American and they got selected in the 1st 3 picks. Everything after was just pure hope and basically up to the players to fulfill their potential.
European players dont take the blame? so what did Dirk get served after they lost to the Heat in the finals and also the Warriros in the 1st round?
It shouldnt matter where u are from, if ur good enough then that is good enough.

Dirk Nowitzki - elite cause the media says so. Josh Howard was the only one who showed up in the Finals Vs. Miami. He (Dirk) got shut down by...Udonis Haslem.

Agreed. Dirk choked. But he isn't the only elite international player. Also in the system AJ played, he didn't even have the ball in his hands as much as he should have had (and more importantly: where he should have got it). Against Miami AJ didn't trust his system and Wade was outstanding. Plus the referees made a whole lot of questionable calls. In the following years AJ more and more took to isolation-basketball (with either Dirk and Josh as the key player and he couldn't really decide on his go-to-guy). To be honest they didn't play proper systems at all. For that kind of basketball you don't need Jason Kidd. So the trade messed things up even more. Also they seemed to have had some locker room issues with Josh Howard. But never mind. This isn't a Mavs forum.