The smiling and laughing are just the way Biden debates, it his habit or even strategy sometimes, can't help it if you ask me. And if Ryan was easy to be intimidated, you can't blame Biden, maybe the hunger of employmemt and economy in America need some flesh, but not a fresh like this

The claim that Biden misrepresented his votes is false. These claims never quote the actual transcript, but paraphrase the statement in such a way is to make it appear that he lied. The full transcript is available online, and any claims about misrepresentation should quote the entire section on which the claim is based. The only reason to paraphrase a small part of the statement instead of quoting the entire thing is to spin it.

How did none of the bloggers point out Ryan's Klingon forehead? I couldn't concentrate on anything else.

I give Biden the win by a nose. Biden can across as genuinely more caring than Ryan did.

Given how close they are on foreign policy, I wonder if it'd play better if Ryan just agreed with everything Biden said with the one exception of Benghazi-gate. Just ride the Obama foreign policy coattail. Ryan's attempt to differentiate was cringe-worthy.

One of Biden's best attacks was on Ryan's request for stimulus. Ryan's position is defensible. You can vote against a stimulus but still have a say on how it's distributed if enacted. But that's not easy to explain in a few seconds.

Ryan missed a huge opportunity by failing to call Biden out when he lied about voting against the wars. Also why not a line like, "Joe, you do well for yourself but you collect Social Security and Medicare. Our plan is to cut back your benefits so we can save those programs for those who really need them. Your plan is to continue paying people like yourself at the expensive of future seniors."

Biden had to use the 47% line and Democrats must've been happy about that but Ryan came fully prepared for that so it was one of the least effective lines.

Ryan's right about the $5T tax cut lie. Difficult and politically unfeasible? Absolutely. But mathematically possible according to the TPC.

@RM, you said the 6 studies Ryan pointed to were all by Republicans but the TPC is run by Democrats.

@MCK, lower cap gains tax a "loophole?" There are a few things all those who work for The Economist should agree on: free trade is good and cap gains shouldn't be taxed as earned income. It's pretty jarring reading opposition to that basic economic policy principle on this website.

Biden was basically truthful (the conservative press is complaining his style, not his words), combative, and unafraid. He fired up his base without shoveling horse manure. So job well done.

Ryan unlike Biden is unctuous and difficult to like, and he had the difficult task of defending a budget proposal that isn't a proposal at all. Given those problems, he did just fine. He's articulate, he prepared, he fought hard. So a good showing by him too, although I think overall the Dems will be happier -- because unlike last week, sombody made the Dem case with energy and enthusiasm.

All this talk about Biden misrepresenting his votes on the war resolutions is incorrect. The Biden statement was in the discussion of the deficit and how the wars combined with tax cuts contributed to that. Here is the quote as taken from the NPR.org transcript of the debate:
Biden: "...
And by the way, they talk about this Great Recession if it fell out of the sky, like, oh my goodness, where did it come from? It came from this man voting to put two wars in a credit card, to at the same time put a prescription drug benefit on the credit card, a trillion- dollar tax cut for a — very wealthy. I was there. I voted against him. I said, no, we can't afford that. And now all of a sudden these guys are so seized with a concern about the debt that they created —"
The fact is that Biden voted against the two bills known collectively as "the Bush tax cuts." Those are the votes to which Biden is referring. He did vote for the authorization of action against al Qaeda leading to the war in Afghanistan (thank goodness) and for authorization of the Iraq war (a mistake, joined by many others, based on bad information).
This is why I always turn to primary sources.

It is if you quote it instead of paraphrasing it or merely referring to it. The debate is an example of extemporaneous speaking with a lot of interplay between the participants. It is not as polished as a prepared speech and should not be expected to be so. I don't think Biden is (or was) bad at English, although in this paragraph his meaning is not clear. In a 90 minute discussion there will be some things left unclarified.

Neither Biden nor Ryan, but probably Mitt Romney. Biden mentioned Obama only in passing, scarcely touching on his achievements (there aren't many), his inspiring leadership (?), or any grand new plans (what new plans?) for the future. Instead, he emphasized his own dubious role in major events. Ryan, by contrast, repeatedly spoke of Romney, warmly praising his qualifications, his character, his vision, and his five-point platform for recovery.

Biden made a big whopper when he spoke about Israel and the US being "in agreement" about when to draw a red line for Iran (see recent UN speech by the Israeli leader - remember Joe?)

It’s actually Biden himself who has inspired gales of bipartisan laughter with his potent parade of gaffes over the duration of his long political career (Ready, firm, aim). In fact, his strange strategy may have amounted to an attempt to take personal control of all the giggles in the room before they could be turned against him.

The oddest aspect of his patronizing performance involved the complete disconnect between his derisive laughter and anything that Paul Ryan actually said. Where, exactly, did the GOP nominee make some point so ridiculous, or express himself so clumsily, that the only appropriate response would be the uncontrollable urge to titter or chortle?

If the purpose was to rattle Ryan it clearly didn’t work: the GOP contender remained calm (perhaps too calm), smooth, polite, and self-possessed while the vice president of the United States rudely interrupted him more than two dozen times.

The polls are now showing that the election will be a repeat of Jimmy Carter in 1980 and change could not happen sooner.

Here is another example already of the common phenomenon that when someone in an internet forum makes an accusation of prevarication without providing a direct quote and a link to an authoritative source document, the chances are that it is the accuser who is twisting the truth.

Vice President Biden did not say that the US and Israel were in agreement about where to dtaw the "red line." He said that the US and Israeli military and intelligence forces were in agreement on how close Iran is to acquiring a nuclear weapon. Here is a direct quote from the transcript of the debate from NPR.org:

"VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN:

. . .

But we feel quite confident we could deal a serious blow to the Iranians. But number two, the Iranians are — the Israelis and the United States — our military and intelligence communities are absolutely the same exact place in terms of how close — how close the Iranians are to getting a nuclear weapon. They are a good way away. There is no difference between our view and theirs.

. . . What — what more can the president do? Stand before the United Nations, tell the whole world, directly communicate to the ayatollah: We will not let them acquire a nuclear weapon, period, unless he's talking about going to war.

. . .

VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, we Irish call it malarkey. (Laughter.) But last thing: the secretary of defense has made it absolutely clear. He didn't walk anything back. We will not allow the Iranians to get a nuclear weapon. What Bibi held up there was when they get to the point where they can enrich uranium enough to put into a weapon, they don't have a weapon to put it into."

Prime Minister Netanyahu spoke at length about the "red line" and where to draw it:

"So if these are the facts, and they are, where should the red line be drawn?

The red line should be drawn right here — Before Iran completes the second stage of nuclear enrichment necessary to make a bomb. Before Iran gets to a point where it's a few months away or a few weeks away from amassing enough enriched uranium to make a nuclear weapon."

Biden did not, at least in the debate, endorse Netanyahu's choice of where to draw a line, but he did say that the US will not allow Iran to acquire a nuclear weapon. I don't see any "whopper" in Biden's remarks. This is just another attempt to spin the debate to the advantage of one side. I don't know why people try this so often when the source documents are readily available.

Am I a day late and a dollar short on this thread? Perhaps, but I think whatever the Economist writers say, Biden did well overall, but Ryan did fine also. They had different jobs last night, but I will say that I checked out this link earlier and they had a very tongue in cheek take on the whole thing: http://tropicsofmeta.wordpress.com/2012/10/12/a-fool-such-as-biden-point...

Biden expressed the right sentiment at the end of the debate when he said that he doesn't believe in imposing his morality on others. Unfortunately, he missed the sharper rhetoric that might have shut the whole thing down in his favor. He should have followed with a statement that whether you are Christian, Mormon, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist, you should respect all Americans' faith and moral creed. Then he could have turned to Ryan and said,
"Congressman, don't you think there is already enough strife in this world from those who try to impose their religious views on others."

Submitted by e-mail to a German friend now resident in Florida, by myself as a Canadian.
Wow. I just spent the last couple of hours watching last night's Vice-Presidential debate, in full, compliments of the New York Times.
I am NOT a great fan of either politics or politicians. In this sentiment I am the same as most people. You only have to read my recent commentary to you on how politicians bid for your vote, and promise 'more', despite knowing it is not in the best interests of the country.
It is therefore all too easy to just blame the politicians. And not to blame ourselves, the voters. This is what people talk about, after talking about the weather… everyone is pretty much agreed in their distaste of politicians.
BUT. My dad holds these kinds of views. They are pretty common. I have often told him that I just do not agree. And I have often told him that I would not, for one second, wish to be a politician. Because 'they have no life'. They will Never satisfy everyone. Many times I think they will satisfy no one, at all. It is an entirely thankless job, for which they will seldom if ever receive any thanks.
I believe that most (not all, but most) politicians enter politics because they actually think they can make things better. They do not enter it for 'power' (but maybe for prestige). But they mean to 'do good', and instead are treated like dirt. They put in unbelievable hours, there is no bottom to their commitment, they try the best that they can.
This does not mean that I like these politicians as people. And I definitely do NOT like 'the political system'. But what I do appreciate is their original motivation, their naivete, and their efforts to make life better for others and for their country.
What I have just seen on this webcast, from start to finish in the US vice-presidential debate, is a perfect example of two individuals who epitomize this. I firmly believe that there is little if any personal gain for either individual. I firmly believe that both are in politics to improve things. I may not always agree with their ideas. But they both have my respect. Their earnestness, and their commitment, I envy them. They are examples of very fine people.

As for the politics in all of this? It does not change in any way what I have just said (above). However I think that Obama has had the chance, and has failed. He is on the defensive. He is also a believer in 'big government'. I cannot agree in the politics of this, or its general concept (and Ayn Rand would agree). I therefore would cast my vote for the Republicans. I am absolutely NOT a fan of the infamous Tea Party… I think they are far too simplistic, and far too obstructive. But I believe that they can do a better job than the Democrats have demonstrated. I would vote for Romney.
As for what will actually happen? My gut feel and crystal ball says Obama will get re-elected. And I believe that will spell huge issues for the future of the US… and in consequence for the world, and (selfishly) for their closest neighbour and trading partner Canada. So yes, I am rather gloomy.

These are my thoughts. If you have the chance (which you probably won't) I would encourage you to watch the debate in full of the two vice-presidential candidates. If you do, be very careful (!) that you do not get captured by their excellent public speaking skills… but instead look beyond that to what they have actually said (and perhaps most importantly what they have side-stepped and not said).

Why, then, did he decide to snicker, chuckle, grin, smirk and shake his head at the one GOP nominee for national office in the last 50 years that even partisan Democrats acknowledge as a serious, substantive, and formidable guy?

Agreement with Israel as to the red line?
Benghazi failure to send more resources when asked (see testimony earlier yesterday at a House hearing)?

Don't worry, be happy may be the theme team Obama adopts in the final weeks...Don't worry about a resurgent al Qaeda in North Africa or the escalating war in Syria or Putin. Biden said "this administration has repaired our alliances so the the rest of the world follows us again."

Biden and team O are empty suits and are now exposed. An utter failure.

"Which Biden whopper did you miss?
Agreement with Israel as to the red line?"

For my fact-challenged friend, here is the text ...
"...But we feel quite confident we could deal a serious blow to the Iranians. But number two, the Iranians are — the Israelis and the United States — our military and intelligence communities are absolutely the same exact place in terms of how close — how close the Iranians are to getting a nuclear weapon. They are a good way away. There is no difference between our view and theirs.

When my friend talks about fissile material, they have to take this highly enriched uranium, get it from 20 percent up. Then they have to be able to have something to put it in. There is no weapon that the Iranians have at this point. Both the Israelis and we know we'll know if they start the process of building a weapon. So all this bluster I keep hearing, all this loose talk — what are they talking about? Are you talking about to be more credible? What — what more can the president do? Stand before the United Nations, tell the whole world, directly communicate to the ayatollah: We will not let them acquire a nuclear weapon, period, unless he's talking about going to war..."

I would like to know what Biden found so funny tonight,is it all the foreclosures,unemployed people,people in America living in poverty,or all of Obama's broken promises.I must of missed something because I don't think none of this shit is funny!

Watching the debate I thought it was a partisan draw: anyone already committed to a candidate thought their side won. But then the reaction here, one comment up, several downthread, from Preibus, from Mitchell, all went straight to "We certainly do not like Joe Biden's mannerisms!" That's not what you talk about when you think your side won.

I would like to refute your comment regarding the final question - Vice President Biden actually did acknowledge that there are aspects to the campaign he regrets and each side should admit to mistakes, to not being proud of every piece of information available. Congressman Ryan on the other hand completely ignored the question aside from attacking the democratic ticket.

CNN and CNBC polls show Ryan winning the debate, but that is so besides the point it is virtually meaningless. The Dems did not change any minds tonight or 'blunt the Mittmentum'. Both sides scored some points but VP debates are more a side show than anything. Biden came off looking like an angry, obnoxious loudmouth. Give him his props - the man knows how to identify with his target audience. LOL

One of the more ridiculous moments of the debate came when Congressman Ryan purported to tell the American people what the "Ayatollah" thinks.

It seemed pretty clear that Congressman Ryan probably couldn't name the Ayatollah.

It was also clear that he had no idea that there has been a 25 year internal power struggle going on in Iran, and that power struggle has taken some unexpected turns for the better in the last year.

It seems highly unlikely that Congressman Ryan has any knowledge of the role America played in deposing Mossadegh, in supporting the Shah's police state, or in supporting Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war.

Does the man think that America is thought of as the Great Satan for nothing?

Does he have no understanding that for America to have openly supported the forces of democratic change in Iran would have been the kiss of death for the very people the west might want to support?

How stupid can a man be? It approaches the Palinesque.

It seems highly unlikely that he is aware that the UK undermined Iran in 1951 - 1953 by preventing it from exporting oil by making it impossible for maritime carries to obtain insurance. The economic pressure of this financial blockade brought the government of Iran to its knees - just as the present financial blockade is doing.

He also didn't seem to know that the (then highly popular) nuclear program in Iran was championed most strongly by President Ahmadinejad, or that the faction to which President Ahmadinjad belongs is struggling for power against the faction to led by Ayatollah Khamenei.

Nor did he seem to realize that the financial strain being placed on the Iranian economy is making the cost of supporting a war in Syria unbearable.

Nor did he seem to realize that the faction of Ayatollah Khamenei may be seeking a way out of this impasse, a purpose for which Majlis speaker Larijani appears to have been testing the waters in various foreign capitals. It is a delicate thing.

Groups of highly intelligent men in Iran are waging an internal, deadly serious, multi-faceted, very complicated, high-stakes game of chess that has been going on for a long time. It is a fight to the death, and it takes a very high level of skill and circumspection.

... and on the other side of the world, we have this loud-mouthed, vacuum-brained Congressman from Wisconsin yakking about what the Ayatollah thinks.

The sad fact is that most Americans (and particularly the right-wing Republican masses) have literally ZERO understanding of (or interest in) the machinations within Iran (or any other country in the world for that matter).

So any concocted story becomes believable.

(And of course, the Republican solution of cutting spending on education increases their voting base)

I think Ryan has a clue about operation Ajax (personally I think the statute of limitations is up on harping on that operation - almost 70 years ago, at the behest of the UK).

However, the channeling of the Ayatollah Khamenei or whoever was silly.

And frankly, when it comes to the middle east, the neo-con credibility is zilch. Who knows about playing up a rivalry with China?

I suspect the Republicans want to "Jimmy Carter" ize Obama. Considering Obama's weak performance at the last debate, that is probably not an ureasonable, if unseemly goal.

I think the simple fact is that Americans have no appetite for a third war in the Middle East. On a policy level, what can be done to ensure transport of oil from the gulf in case of hostilities? I think there is a big handicap, and one that sobers all but the most gung ho, looney types.

It's highly unlikely that Biden knows his left from his right. He's like a Palin who was dropped on his head. What's the basis for my claim? None. Just making stuff up like you did. People like you are the reason we get out to vote for Romney. Can't let lunacy rule.

Ryan/Romney's America. The rich get richer, the poor poorer, the middle class hanging on a string, R&D slashed, the infrastructure in a heap, we're in another war,if you need a abortion you find a butcher in a back alley, and you get to die in your apartment or in the ER because you don't have healthcare. AMERICA BEWARE OF THESE CHARLATANS.

The 15% Canadian small business tax is a lie by Ryan (comes from a Canadian).

It is, firstly, a general - federal - business tax cut, with not that many deductions - but it is not an income tax, since practically every small business in Canada incorporates due to preferential tax treatment due to low tax rate.

Secondly, it does not cover carried interest or dividends - those are taxed at regular tax rates.

And, finally, Ryan and his buddies blocked the very same tax reform that would bring the generally obscene corporate tax rate in US down - but eliminated all the special deductions which are normally enjoyed by big companies.

"Mr Biden says the middle class will pay less in taxes while those making over $1 million will pay more. This revises earlier Obama administration proposals to raise taxes on people making over $250K."

Those making over 250k are not middle class, so that's not a revision.

At the end of the day of choosing between a Coke and a Pepsi, what matters most to the middle class is that the Zionists from whose-ever White house will get their ways to attack Iran, whether or not the Aryans really want to pursue to achieve their nuclear bomb enrichment dream to the end.

While I know I'm biased-- I'm socially liberal, and Romney/Ryan is strongly conservative, so it's unlikely I'd ever vote for them regardless of their economic and foreign policy positions, if they actually had any-- I think Biden won.

Biden looked, well... like an attack dog. A well trained, well groomed attack dog with shiny teeth, but still, an attack dog. In comparison, however, Ryan looked like a snake. And it's only proper for an attack dog to kill a snake.

Wow...after listening to Ryan speak I just had flashbacks of EDDIE HASKEL from leave it to beaver. Could he have been any slimier? It was like someone called the Acme casting studio as said "send a slimy politician over to studio two." I didn't realize the extent to which he would make my skin crawl.

I literally wanted to choke the little bastard within the first five minutes of the debate. Just listening to him spew bullshit, like a schoolboy who'd just read the cliff notes the night before had me rolling my eyes. At least Biden was able to smile...I would have probably decked the Pee Wee Herman look-alike. You are no Jack Kennedy.

"after listening to Ryan speak ...It was like someone called the Acme casting studio as said "send a slimy politician over to studio two." "

Head on.

By picking Ryan, Romney made the mistake of showing to all the independent and/or thinking voters that he doesn´t care or can not see Ryan is dead weight for the demographic that could have made him win or rather will make him loose.

Oh, is that what he was doing? We turned off the sound about fifteen minutes into the so-called debate and family and friends were supplying the sounds to Ms.Raddatz's questions, when the sound was turned on long enough to hear her questions. I am fully convinced that our soundtrack was more amusing and didactic than any answer those two could have ever provided. When Biden was, smiling, you say?, the kids (just not old enough to vote this time) had us rolling on the ground. When Ryan was doing his Eddy Munster imitations, the older generation had everyone in stitches. So, I guess, it was not time wasted, after all...

Good luck - Biden and his boss will be out of work in January, the polls are now moving against Obama and Biden and this will be Jimmy Carter 2.0. They have been the worst team in the last 75 years and unfortunately for the country got into power when we really needed leadership. What we got was a big dose of class warfare, finger pointing, no leadership and lies. It will be good to finally have leaders who sit down and solver problems.

Electing Romney and Ryan is pretty much the opposite of "people being in power". They have only the interests of the corporations an the top one percent in mind, and in fact actively goes insulting the majority of Americans who make less than 250k a year.

Meanwhile Obama has the interest of a different set of corporations and the masses that vote for him in mind.

Could not disagree with you more. Obama has not articulated a policy to grow the economy in four years - none. Like Ryan and Mitt have said, the wealthy should continue to pay more in taxes vis a vis those less fortunate - that is not going to change under the new POTUS. What Obama has now demonstrated in 4 years is that he has no experience and has not put forth any credible policy to make the economy grow. More government spending is not going to grow the economy, it hasn't in the past four years and it will not in the next 4. Not sure what you have been listening to to arrive at the conclusion that Mitt and Ryan only care about the 1% or "corporations"...that is Demo spin to make people not to focus on what the real problem we are facing...an economy that is not producing a sufficient amount of jobs per month to fill or exceed the level of young people joining the work force which is 150,000 per month! Meanwhile their solution is for the government to spend more. This is an undeniable fact - the CBO is predicting, even if the ecomony growns at 4% annually that our debt service will be slightly under $1 trillion a year. For some perspective, our entire government spending was about $2.2 trillion just 12 years ago. This is an unsustainable path and is not deniable. This is why the polls have now shifted and why team Obama is headed for the exits....no ideas or leadership to fix problems. Sorry but this is where the problem lies. Can you dispute these facts about the economy or the level of our debts? How do you see anything differently?

One other fact - if in 2022, holders of our then $22 trillion in debt demand a higher return because the level of debt and risk of non repayment ask for a mere one half of one % increase, that would be about $110 billion more they would demand in annual debt payments. You can also check this by doing the math. We cannot head down this road and have such a debt crisis as it would be an absolute disaster for everyone in the country - everyone. It would be catastrophically bad for the country and would especially do permanent harm to the poor and the entire middle class. This is what Ryan has been talking about and this is before medicare goes bankrupt (mid 20's) then followed by social security (late 30's). This is all out in the public but team Obama and Biden don't seem to care or be focused on it. We need to get people back to work, then the economy will grow, taxes will be paid by all, fix entitlements, and bring the debt down...but don't wait any longer.

"Obama has not articulated a policy to grow the economy in four years"

Well, aside from the policies he articulated and attempted-- and in many cases, succeeded-- to pass, at any rate, but I would never suggest you let facts, rationality, logic, or sanity get in the way of a good rant.