So, since Furion hasn't graced our forum with a discussion topic yet, I'll note it here. He started an initiative to rebalance 8th edition. It's mostly a few changes and tweaks here and there, unlike the comprehensive rework from 9th age. He seems to fix a lot with points, kind of like a built-in comp system with only a few changes to mechanics.http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=106

Overall, core infantry is made cheaper, combat is made a little bit cheaper, and shooting is kept as expensive as it was or made more expensive. I haven't checked all armybooks yet, but here's the list of changes he made to the Dark Elf book.

Malekith - Now 580 pts.

Morathi - Now 490 pts.

Hellebron - Now 350pts.

Malus Darkblade - Now 340pts, up from 295pts.

Dreadlord

Sea Dragon Cloak now costs 45pts, up from 8pts.

Dark Steed costs 35pts, up from 20pts.

Manticore costs 100pts, down from 150pts.

Cold one Chariot costs 50pts, down from 120pts.

Supreme Sorceress

Dark Steed costs 35pts, up from 20pts.

Black Dragon costs 225pts, down from 300pts.

High Beastmaster

Costs 200pts, down from 300pts

Is now a HERO instead of a LORD (no change in stats though!)

Black Ark Fleetmaster

Costs 110pts, down from 110pts

Is now a HERO instead of a LORD (no change in stats though!)

Show no weakness: in your turn, sacrifice the Corsair unit's champ to give it +2 to movement, WS, Ini and stubborn.

Assault Leader: give Ambush to the Fleetmaster's infantry unit.

Shadowblade now costs 180pts, down fro 245pts

Lokhir Fellheart costs 90pts, down from 235pts

Kouran Darkhand costs 90pts, down from 180pts

Tullaris Dreadbringer costs 90pts, down from 155pts

Master

Sea Dragon Cloak costs 45pts, up from 6pts

Dark steed costs 25pts, up from 10pts

Manticore costs 100pts, down from 150pts

Death Hag

Costs 75pts, down from 85pts.

Cry of War: replaced. Now it gives Vanguard to the unit the Hag joins.

(new) Cry of War costs 40pts, up from 15pts.

Witchbrew costs 25pts, down from 30pts.

Rune of Khaine costs 45pts, down from 40pts.

Can take any magical items, instead of just weapons.

Cauldron of Blood costs 120pts, down from 190pts.

Assassins

Repeater Handbow costs 15pts, up from 5pts.

Can take any "number of poisons". Poisons are cummulative.

Black Lotus, you get a poisoned attack on a 4+

Dark Venom, killing blow for shooting and combat on a 5+

Manbane, Strength 5 for shooting, Strength 6 for close combat

40 points, Throwing stars, quick to fire, multiple shots (3)

Dreadspears cost 7pts, down from 9pts.

Bleakswords cost 7pts, down from 9pts.

Darkshards cost 13pts, up from 12pts.

Witch Elves

Now automatically deal 1 Strength 4 hit to all non Khainite characters in the unit, instead of a 4+ test to deal D6 S3 hits.

Aura of Agony: now gives +1 WS to friendly models and -1 WS to enemy models within 6".

Sisters of Slaughter.

Now costs 14pts per model, down from 15pts per model.

Gained skirmisher special rule

Manticore

Blind Rage no longer gives +1 to Hit for the manticore and its attackers

Dark Magic

Power of Darkness, now 11+ to cast, up from 8+

Word of Pain, boosted version costs 15+ to cast, up from 12+

Shroud of Despair, now affects a single enemy unit within 18", instead of all enemy units within 12".

Items

Hydra Blade, 50 points (down from 100pts). Profile changed. It now gives a flat D6 additional attacks and the regeneration from the Hydra "Another takes its place".

Chillblade, down to 40 pts (from 50pts). It permanently reduces the target's attacks by 3, no toughness test required.

Black Dragon Egg: down to 40 pts (from 50pts).

Cloak of Twillight: down to 45pts (from 50pts), but only wards on a 4+ (instead of 3+).

Gem of Spite, removed.

Sacrificial Dagger, now 65pts up from 25pts.

Tome of Furion, down to 20pts from 25pts. It now works for all lores.

*new* Pear of Infinite Bleakness, 10pts, Character and its unit are ITP.

*new* Banner of Cold Blood, 50pts, one use, lasts one turn, all units within 12" roll LD checks on 3D6 and discard the highest D6 roll.

*new* Web of Shadows, 15pts, S3 Breath Weapon for the bearer but only in close combat.

*new* Ring of Darkness, 50pts, -1 WS/BS for attackers of the bearer (or unit in case of shooting).

*new* Crystal of Midnight, 20pts, one use, nominate an enemy wizzard who must pass a Ld test on 3D6 or forget a randomly determined spell.

*new* Hydra Banner, 75pts, +1A for all (including mounts) in first round of any close combat.

*new* Armour of Living Death, 65pts, Heavy Armour, +1T, +3W

*new* Shield of Grond, 35pts, resolve all hits at -1S.

Remarks I'll report to him as potential typos or oversights.- Fleetmaster, by giving +2 movement only to the unit, then Fleetmaster in the unit will still restrict the unit to M5 rendering the ability useless on the charge, useless in close combat. The only scenario in which this can be beneficial is when the character leaves the unit, which means the benefit of WS, ini and stubborn are lost. This is intended?- Banner of Cold Blood affects all units, which includes enemy units. This is intended?- Web of Shadows, doesn't state a single use only. This is intended to be reusable in every close combat phase?- The dragon is made cheaper for the Sorceress but not the Dreadlord? (I get this one)- The Manticore is made 50pts cheaper for Dreadlord and Beastmaster, but not the Sorceress? (I don't get this one)- Cold one Chariot costs 115pts. It's marked as a change, but it is the same cost as before. - Dark Riders cost 16pts. It's marked as a change, but it's the same cost as before.

_________________I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."- The stiff breeze

Most tweaks are small changes and I find it difficult to judge quickly how it will affect the game. I think Black Guards are huge winners, perhaps at the expensive of Executioners. The Chariots in core make an all chariot and monster list possible. The reduced cost of the Cloak of Twillight is a bit weird. I have to check the changes to the dawnstone. If it didn't get more expensive, I see some new cheese combos there. Cheaper monsters are okay, I suppose. But now a Dragon comes awfully close in cost to a Kharibdys? Hm. The switch by some characters to heroes isn't a biggie but appreciated. The Beastmaster is still outmatched by our Master in almost every way except that the Beastmaster can carry 100pts of Magical Items.The Fleetmaster is more acceptable as a fighter on foot. Not terrific, but better.Rending star Assassins seem back in the game but expensive to be at full power.We can now have armoured Hags. Yay.Cheaper Dreadspears and Bleakswords will bring them in the game again, but note that a similar change was done across the board for other armies.

With the cheaper troops, in general, I think this change will bring back armies with 3 big blocks, which can be any of bleakswords, witch elves, black guards, cold one knights. Or 2 blocks with a few support units like the Sisters, Executioners and Medusae.

The Shroud of Despair has lost a lot of power with the BWS and Hag losing their LD modifiers. The range compensation makes me wonder if he intended to have it used as a defensive spell... To help units fail panic checks. Right.

Most obvious of all is that people hated Warlocks. There seems to be no end to the nerdrage against them and there is a community wide crusade to make sure they are nerfed into the ground. And drowned in the mud. And then kicked. And then spit on. And then shot in the head. And then their corpses get all sorts of humiliating treatments which I shouldn't be describing in detail here.Either way, down down down they go!

I'm a big fan of the love and support that regular spears have been given. They needed a boost. But the way some nerfs are handled irks me... and that's putting it politely

_________________I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."- The stiff breeze

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."- The stiff breeze

I never bothered looking closely at what he's done but yeah 45 points for SDC, that's crazy but not unsurprising to me. I could see 20 or 25 points but 45 points is just draconian, no pun intended.

Blackguard at 11 points if they are otherwise unchanged makes them much stronger, seems a little crazy good, if you put a razor banner on them and a cauldron (or back them up with life magic).

I think I'm at the point where to me trying to fix warhammer 'balance' using a linear point system will converge to an uninteresting set of army books. Most of the abuses in 8th seem to stem from spamming power choices. Are 5 warlocks at 125 points overpowering? Maybe, are 20 at 500 points, yeah that's much more difficult for people to deal with. Secondly, 45 point 4+ ward save on a night goblin big boss, no real problem. 45 point 4+ ward save on chaos lord with mark of tzeentch and third eye of tzeentch, that's a bigger problem. Linear doesn't fix these problems but nonlinear leads to a more complicated game system and it seems people prefer a simplistic system. So the only real solution for linear point systems is to make powerful stuff be crazy expensive like sea dragon cloaks and warlocks or just to nerf it significantly.

I think the changes make sense, and seem to address many of the complaints people had with the current list in terms of balance. It would make some of the less popular options (fleetmaster, medusa, etc) more viable and some of the "must -have" units more situational.

I'd still say that even at 40 points each, I'd still take Warlocks more often than not.

That said, the trick as always would be convincing your friends to adopt unofficial house rules.

_________________Chinese Relativity Axiom: No matter how glorious your triumphs, nor how miserable your failures, there will always be at least one billion people in China who don't give a damn.

I think the changes make sense, and seem to address many of the complaints people had with the current list in terms of balance. It would make some of the less popular options (fleetmaster, medusa, etc) more viable and some of the "must -have" units more situational.

I'd still say that even at 40 points each, I'd still take Warlocks more often than not.

That said, the trick as always would be convincing your friends to adopt unofficial house rules.

While I cannot be bothered to grind my way through another set of rules, his changes do seem a bit more interesting. At least more in flavor with what I consider to be fun about warhammer. Probably unbalanced as hell

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."- The stiff breeze

The Sea Dragon cloak points cost makes sense to me. By itself, 40 points for a +2 armor save bonus is steep, but in relation to the usual character build (heavy armor, shield, mount, sea dragon cloak), a change from 3+ to 1+ is definitely worth the 40 points price tag. It has to be understood in that context, I assume

_________________"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Just to let you know, the interest seems to have shifted away from reworking 8th independantly.Some people just play 8th as GW left it, and many look forwards to reading what 9th Age will provide in a few weeks.

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