What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Sönam wrote:What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood.

Sönam

Interesting. Aren't the Four Noble Truths the first thing Buddha taught his buddies after being enlightened?

Sönam wrote:What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood.

Sönam

Interesting. Aren't the Four Noble Truths the first thing Buddha taught his buddies after being enlightened?

absolutely ... it is a direct teaching!

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

porpoise wrote:Not all traditions use the 8-fold path, the 4th Noble Truth. Not all traditions use the 5 precepts or 3 jewels.

The question was: which Buddhist tradition does not have the 4 Noble truths? Your statement does not answer my question. So let me ask which Buddhist traditions do not "use" the Four Noble Truths?

I spent many years in Tibetan and Zen traditions and can't remember the 4NT even being mentioned, let alone identified as a key teaching. And I don't think they recieve any attention in traditions like Nichiren and Pureland. In fact Theravada is the only tradition I know of where the 4NT are regarded as a central teaching, or where the 8-fold path is practiced.

I'd agree with the idea that the 4NT are implicit in most traditions, but that's rather different from saying that they're a central common feature.

I spent many years in Tibetan and Zen traditions and can't remember the 4NT even being mentioned

Seriously? I haven't attended a longer teaching from a Tibetan master without them being mentioned- and that is across three of the Tibetan traditions. Perhaps I will be corrected in this, but the 4NT are still essential in the direct meditation traditions like Dzogchen ( Khenpos on 4NT in Dzogchen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPDEqjeAG9o) And certainly, in the presentation of HHDL and HH Karmapa, the 4 Arya Truths form the crux of any introductory teaching.

How else do we understand suffering, its cause, the possibility of freedom, and the path to freedom?The Buddhist teachings themselves arose out of a profound wish to provide a path of freedom from suffering.

Sönam wrote:What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself.

So are you saying we can disregard everything else that is taught in all the various Buddhist traditions?

I did'nt said "diregard", you just cut an important part of it.My complete sentence was "What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood."

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

JKhedrup wrote:Perhaps I will be corrected in this, but the 4NT are still essential in the direct meditation traditions like Dzogchen ...

You are of course perfectly right ... the point in Dzogchen is that the ignorance principe of twelve interdependent causations is described as "apprehending appearances as others, not realizing them as self-radiance" (Ma-Rig-Pa).

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Sönam wrote:What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself.

So are you saying we can disregard everything else that is taught in all the various Buddhist traditions?

I did'nt said "diregard", you just cut an important part of it.My complete sentence was "What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood."

I'm still not clear what you mean by "secondary" and "complementary". Are you saying that the teachings and practices of all traditions are basically just methods to realise the 4NTs?

Sönam wrote:I did'nt said "diregard", you just cut an important part of it.My complete sentence was "What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood."

I'm still not clear what you mean by "secondary" and "complementary". Are you saying that the teachings and practices of all traditions are basically just methods to realise the 4NTs?

Yes ... what else are you expecting?

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Sönam wrote:I did'nt said "diregard", you just cut an important part of it.My complete sentence was "What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood."

I'm still not clear what you mean by "secondary" and "complementary". Are you saying that the teachings and practices of all traditions are basically just methods to realise the 4NTs?

Yes ... what else are you expecting?

Sönam

It's news to me. What you say does make sense, but like I said I don't remember that being made atall clear while I was actually involved in Tibetan Buddhism, and I've always associated the 4NT primarily with Theravada Buddism. Anyway, I stand corrected.

Basically you can take everything that were taught in the Vinaya and Agama/Nikaya as common teachings. The first strong differences occurred with the various abhidharma works and then other developments like the Bodhisattva/Vaipulya Pitaka, etc.

1Myriad dharmas are only mind. Mind is unobtainable. What is there to seek?2If the Buddha-Nature is seen,there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.3Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.4With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,the six paramitas and myriad meansare complete within that essence.

JKhedrup wrote:Perhaps I will be corrected in this, but the 4NT are still essential in the direct meditation traditions like Dzogchen ...

You are of course perfectly right ... the point in Dzogchen is that the ignorance principe of twelve interdependent causations is described as "apprehending appearances as others, not realizing them as self-radiance" (Ma-Rig-Pa).

I have a rather limited knowledge on the different buddhist practicions, but for me the most important and central aspects are the four noble truths, the noble eight-fold path, and some concepts revolving around meditation, mindfulness, awareness, love, energies, presence (being NOW) and reflection. And ofcourse, liberation from the clasps of the ego.

But as Seishin wisely said, we each have our own path, with our own truths. I Strongly believe that we always decide and are responisble for our reality, and thus we can only progress and achieve as much as we truly believe we can.