This also happens in many non-union workplaces and individual merit and accomplishment are not always rewarded by the employer.

True, but IMO the union is not an answer for that. If you don't like your situation and you are not being rewarded, leave and find another job. There are plenty of places out there that do reward employees.

As was already pointed out, if workers aren't doing their job properly and their supervisors allow that to continue to happen, then that's not the union's fault. Many union workers have been disciplined and/or discharged when the employer had just cause and did their due diligence on the matter.

And here's a surprise. there are places where it's almost impossible to do that, and the state where my father worked was one of those places. The hoops and documentation required was enormous, and the union had significant power, and everybody knew it.

Funny thing is that here in this part of LA with the civil service system it's the same way. The vast majority of the suspensions and disciplinary actions regarding fire and police that come before their civil service boards are overturned and members reinstated. When I say vast I'm talking over 90%,

That point is not even close to being reached. As long as their are employers and employees, there will always be a role for unions.
Disagree. There are now more than enough laws and agencies that protect worker rights.

You would be correct that there has been no change in position regarding IAFF members volunteering in combination departments in which an IAFF Local exists. I'm not specifically aware of any issue with volunteering in communities that could afford career staff so I would agree that there hasn't been a significant change in position on that. VFDs are not viewed as "rival organizations" simply because they are VFDs. Any that have been designated as such, have been because they were engaging in conduct that negatively impacted a Local. As far as I know, there's never really been an issue with members volunteering in the small rural departments.

Guess what. Wrong.

Just before I left Vermont, the IAFF local got the city to prohibit their members from volunteering. The reason was simple - and this came directly from the mouth of one of the local union leaders - was to reduce the number of members on the surrounding volunteer departments so that they would be in a position where they would have to hire career personnel.

It didn't work.

Just this winter I was talking to some volunteers outside of a meduim sized city in NY (my home). I asked about the city guys volunteering and they told me it just didn't happen because it wasn't allowed by the local.

So please don't tell me that the local, or the union, doesn't have issues with suburban volunteer departments that surround the cities.

And while there are no rules here regarding career members from the 2 city departments volunteering, it is highly discouraged.

The IAFF is so worried about its members volunteering that it leaves enforcement of that rule up to the discretion of its Locals rather than handling it themself.

Maybe in the end it is up to the locals, but please don't try to tell me that overall the union is anti-volunteer. They are coming to the realization that in the rural areas, career members simply won't happen, but they do target suburban volunteer departments with the money to potentially hire career staff.

Your ignorance is astounding, but if you want to be that guy shouting at the wind, have at it.

If you want to call me ignorant about where the IAFF sees fire protection in this country, fine, but I have talked to enough strongly pro-union guys and have seen the union is action enough to know that they really aren't concerned about fire protection. They are simply concerned about more jobs.

If you want to call me ignorant about where the IAFF sees fire protection in this country, fine, but I have talked to enough strongly pro-union guys and have seen the union is action enough to know that they really aren't concerned about fire protection. They are simply concerned about more jobs.

Your skull is so thick, Halfdome at Yosemite National Park seems like a pebble in comparison.

‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

If you want to call me ignorant about where the IAFF sees fire protection in this country, fine, but I have talked to enough strongly pro-union guys and have seen the union is action enough to know that they really aren't concerned about fire protection. They are simply concerned about more jobs.

This is about as much of a bullsh it statement as I have ever seen. Not concerned about protecting the public from fire? Try telling that to a gentleman with whom I worked the other day; he's easy to recognize with the thick scarring on his arms. I know you'll remember him, he's one of the two brothers who saved the life of a child in a burning vehicle. His arms are filled with thick, very nasty looking scars. I know you remember the incident, as that is the one you very decidedly said was "not your problem".

The IAFF is not worried about fire protection? Please, stop commenting. We're very concerned about fire protection. We are constantly striving to improve the service level that we provide and deliver to the community.
And, quite honestly, we could care less about what is happening in volunteer departments. It isn't and you aren't an important enough of an issue to pop up on our radar; except when you directly attack our integrity.

There are things the IAFF is studying, and researching that will benefit all firefighters, just like in the past. Things that have nothing to do with money. Things that deal with your health and how your body reacts to stress and overheating during fire-duty (not that you have to worry about that).

‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

I can train, insure and equip 10 volunteers for the cost of 1 career member.

So actually, in the long run in most non-urban communities, it's fewer responders.

You assume they will actually show up. According to the NVFC, the primary issues facing volunteers are response and retention. I doubt your locale is any different than any other VFD facing this issue.

Once again. Your cabeza is shown to be inserted deeply into your posterior.

You say the IAFF's only concern is about jobs. They are also concerned about the safety of those who do the job with the intent of making a difference. Showing up and looking at a fire burn a house down or watching someone get incinerated in a car is not doing the job.

You continue to show you are an embarrassment to the fire service. Run along and go play preventioneer. A job that could go away tomorrow and no one would notice.

You act like the thread title was directed at a firefighter's union. Not to mention I can't change the title myself anyway. If you are that butt hurt over it IM the WebTeam. Let me know how that works out for you.

Would you like me to find a link from one of the many Walmart demonstrations across the country over the past week, and make sure it is from New Jersey? At least then the title would fit again.

I already admitted to eating crow on this one. If it hurts your feelings that much to see it, stop looking at it. Either way, get over it.

so you posted a non ff story in the ....wait for it.....firefighting forum....with a thread title that you should know would ruffle feathers amongst the members here....and you have an issue with being called out? give me a f*cking break. once again....BMA.

You assume they will actually show up. According to the NVFC, the primary issues facing volunteers are response and retention. I doubt your locale is any different than any other VFD facing this issue.
Again, using what seemed to be a poorly run volunteer component of your past department as an example, I would be concerned about that as well.

However, there are thousands of VFDs across the country where members do show up and do the job on a regular basis.

My combo department averages 12-14 volunteers during the day and about 20 at night for a reported structure fire. We can average almost that many for a significant brush fire or MVA. Sorry, but you lose.

While my VFD has far fewer members, our members average about a 34% response rate, which is quite acceptable.

You say the IAFF's only concern is about jobs. They are also concerned about the safety of those who do the job with the intent of making a difference. Showing up and looking at a fire burn a house down or watching someone get incinerated in a car is not doing the job.

They are concerned about the safety of the minority of the firefighters who happen to be career and happen to be union.

They have no concern for volunteers.

When they tell union members that they cannot volunteer at combo department, they are decreasing the safety of thier union members who work there for the primary purpose of pressuring that department to hire more career personnel rather than using volunteers. That also affects the safety of the public at large as there are fewer responders than there could be.

When the locals makes rules against career members volunteering in thier off time, they decrease the safety of volunteers by limiting the pool and decrease the safety of the public by limiting responders.

That sounds like an organization that is concerned about safety on thier own terms and only if it boosts union membership.

You continue to show you are an embarrassment to the fire service. Run along and go play preventioneer. A job that could go away tomorrow and no one would notice.

This is about as much of a bullsh it statement as I have ever seen. Not concerned about protecting the public from fire? Try telling that to a gentleman with whom I worked the other day; he's easy to recognize with the thick scarring on his arms. I know you'll remember him, he's one of the two brothers who saved the life of a child in a burning vehicle. His arms are filled with thick, very nasty looking scars. I know you remember the incident, as that is the one you very decidedly said was "not your problem".
Was talking directly about the union management, not the firefighters.

The IAFF is not worried about fire protection? Please, stop commenting. We're very concerned about fire protection. We are constantly striving to improve the service level that we provide and deliver to the community.

Even if that means allowing the locals to prohibit or strongly discouraging union members from volunteering in their home departments. I guess the union leadership is only concerned about the public served by the department's from which they can collect dues.

And, quite honestly, we could care less about what is happening in volunteer departments. It isn't and you aren't an important enough of an issue to pop up on our radar; except when you directly attack our integrity.

I am attacking the idea that the union seems to be concerned solely with the citizens that their union members protect on the job.

There are things the IAFF is studying, and researching that will benefit all firefighters, just like in the past. Things that have nothing to do with money. Things that deal with your health and how your body reacts to stress and overheating during fire-duty (not that you have to worry about that).

Again, using what seemed to be a poorly run volunteer component of your past department as an example, I would be concerned about that as well.

However, there are thousands of VFDs across the country where members do show up and do the job on a regular basis.

My combo department averages 12-14 volunteers during the day and about 20 at night for a reported structure fire. We can average almost that many for a significant brush fire or MVA. Sorry, but you lose.

While my VFD has far fewer members, our members average about a 34% response rate, which is quite acceptable.

Blah blah blah. All we have is your word for it. Which is not worth the bandwidth it consumes.

Originally Posted by LaFireEducator

They are concerned about the safety of the minority of the firefighters who happen to be career and happen to be union.

They have no concern for volunteers.

When they tell union members that they cannot volunteer at combo department, they are decreasing the safety of thier union members who work there for the primary purpose of pressuring that department to hire more career personnel rather than using volunteers. That also affects the safety of the public at large as there are fewer responders than there could be.

When the locals makes rules against career members volunteering in thier off time, they decrease the safety of volunteers by limiting the pool and decrease the safety of the public by limiting responders.

That sounds like an organization that is concerned about safety on thier own terms and only if it boosts union membership.

And the volunteers benefit from the safety procedures that are researched by the IAFF without paying for them. So basically you are praising a group that freeloads on the coattails of others. I'm not surprised you find this practice admirable.

Originally Posted by LaFireEducator

Really. I think a few might.

Doubtful. You've yet to prove your activity has prevented one fire.

Run along. I'm sure there are forums for faux firefighters like you who will be in rapt attention at the nonsense you spout. Those of us who did the job realize you're pretty worthless and have yet to offer anything of value to the conversation. Sadly, the taxpayers that foot the bill for your "expertise" have no idea a fraud is being funded by them.

‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY