Official music video, but should this still be called a M@D? Or can it rightly be called a Japanese AMV? There are Japanese editors who take the title... (Pianos, Niwatori). As an AMV editor who lives in Japan, this is relevant to my interests.

If you search アニメMAD on nico, you will get "Japanese AMVs", there are lots of editors like that besides Pianos and Niwa, especially when you include the Chinese community.If you search 静止画MAD you will get the type of videos our community recognises as a MAD, still images

Take Niwa's latest videos (http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/31064400), they are titled as MAD, not AMV...even though it's in the AMV style. He has no reason to call it an AMV since it's not his country's terminology.You still get some Japanese people tag them as amv, just like you get some Americans tags there videos as MAD....

In the end both words are just different terminology used by different communities, targeting the same thing....you could just call it either

Historically, this was not true, though AceD. Early M@Ds did not resemble early AMVs, and the philosophy behind creating them was quite different. You make a case which has been discussed here before, that the two forms have evolved to closely resemble each other if not be indistinguishable unless they follow styles which were established very early in one hobby or the other. I don't disagree, but I also don't need the explanation (useful for newer editors/members, perhaps).

I've unfortunately only discussed this with one Japanese creator in person. Turns out one of the clerks at the 市役所 was a M@D editor, and he saw me editing one day at my desk on the Board of Education's floor. I think he was delivering a note. Japanese creators seem to be very, very strongly tied to anonymity, and so there aren't any real get-togethers like there are for other fandoms I am involved in here in Japan where I may be the only person who isn't ethnically Japanese present. It'd be nice if we could, but then, I think the international community, especially the North American community, benefits largely from the convention scene. In Japan, events are tied to much smaller purposes. The idea of a general anime convention has been discussed by several people (including myself), but the fear is that it might not be popular, nor its purpose understood.

I the case of this thread, I was more interested in what you would apply to this specific work, especially as it is an official music video, not a discussion of M@D vs. AMV.

Kionon wrote:Historically, this was not true, though AceD. Early M@Ds did not resemble early AMVs, and the philosophy behind creating them was quite different. You make a case which has been discussed here before, that the two forms have evolved to closely resemble each other if not be indistinguishable unless they follow styles which were established very early in one hobby or the other. I don't disagree, but I also don't need the explanation (useful for newer editors/members, perhaps).

I've unfortunately only discussed this with one Japanese creator in person. Turns out one of the clerks at the 市役所 was a M@D editor, and he saw me editing one day at my desk on the Board of Education's floor. I think he was delivering a note. Japanese creators seem to be very, very strongly tied to anonymity, and so there aren't any real get-togethers like there are for other fandoms I am involved in here in Japan where I may be the only person who isn't ethnically Japanese present. It'd be nice if we could, but then, I think the international community, especially the North American community, benefits largely from the convention scene. In Japan, events are tied to much smaller purposes. The idea of a general anime convention has been discussed by several people (including myself), but the fear is that it might not be popular, nor its purpose understood.

I the case of this thread, I was more interested in what you would apply to this specific work, especially as it is an official music video, not a discussion of M@D vs. AMV.

I only touched on it briefly, because you asked "should this still be called a M@D? Or can it rightly be called a Japanese AMV?". My only point was that they are one in the same. Mentioning history of such things is pointless when only the here and now is relevant.

So anyway. Same case as FlashBack, yama_ko is a "mad editor", and freelance motion designer. Both are official music videos.....so why try decide if it's a "M@D" or "Japanese AMV", just call it an official music video....i would probably just call it a MV or PV though, since they are official videos and "mads/amvs" relate to fanmade works

AceD wrote:Mentioning history of such things is pointless when only the here and now is relevant.

I actually disagree with this. History is always relevant. We cannot understand the here and now without a thorough understanding how we arrived at this place and time. Just because the two hobbies have evolved to appear, at the surface level, to be indistinguishable does not make them inherently so.

so why try decide if it's a "M@D" or "Japanese AMV", just call it an official music video....i would probably just call it a MV or PV though, since they are official videos and "mads/amvs" relate to fanmade works

...uhm, because it's fun? And interesting? And because comparative theory is educational and promotes critical thinking? And just because a work is official does not mean that fandom is precluded (see Interstella 5555, which is both an official music video and work brimming with fan oriented intertextual value). In fact, it would be really cool to see more official work which did have fan oriented intertextual value. That'd be pretty darn cool.

It's original animation done officially for the band, like the Amazing Nuts CD/DVD pack or a Gorillas MV ... so it is neither an AMV or a M@D ... it is what it is ...

C'mon, JH, you've got to give me more than that. I just don't see why "official" precludes definition as AMV/M@D. Not only do I not believe that fandom is inherent in AMVs/M@Ds, but even when it is inherent in an individual AMV or M@D, there is nothing which precludes that video from also being official. If a Japanese studio hired you tomorrow to edit for an official music video with all new animation for some anime series or anime short, and you really liked it, and you were fan, and you worked with the animators to do all the things which we normally do in AMV editing, and your work was released in Japan, would you honestly tell me you hadn't just made an AMV? If you argued because the editing was done in Japan for a Japanese audience, you had made a M@D, I might believe. If you told me you hadn't made an AMV or a M@D, I wouldn't believe you. I'd be too polite to say so, but that's how I would see it.

It seems to me there should be some other criterion for determining why one of these labels does not apply, and that criterion should not be whether or not a video is official and/or authorised. With this particular video, one can argue that there isn't the kind of sync we usually associate with AMVs, and this much looser sync is more reminiscent of M@Ds, but as M@Ds have become significantly more synced over time, perhaps an argument can be made that this video's lack of sync is what prevents it from being considered one or the other. However, this gets into the issue of the literally thousands of videos uploaded to the Org or on YouTube which claim one of these labels but have no sync or what we might say is technically lacking sync. Are those not AMVs?

Kionon wrote:Japanese creators seem to be very, very strongly tied to anonymity, and so there aren't any real get-togethers like there are for other fandoms I am involved in here in Japan where I may be the only person who isn't ethnically Japanese present.

http://web.archive.org/web/200304050213 ... e/mad.htmlI remember when we translated the MAD info page. Got some amusing commentary on different MAD creator webpages' bbs comments. Pretty much they were like omg who put this up we need to get it down. Unlike us over here where the JP companies have limited power to do anything they also have to worry more about getting shut down. You can bet something like a large scale AMV contest would not fly over there unless it was backed by a particular corporate entity and had the proper restrictions in place. At that point it wouldn't really be the same thing. Let's also remember that it's standard procedure to keep your otaku status in the closet to begin with.

If you take fan out of the picture then you've moved on from AMV or MAD designation. What you have then is professional output. It's not the same thing. Plenty of doujin amateurs go pro but you don't see people making MADs in Japan as a doujin enterprise to go pro because they don't own the footage and music and would be sued into oblivion. To be honest if I was an animator whether pro or an amateur in the doujin scene I would see AX's cash money AMV contest as a slap in the face. Cons over here exist to serve their clientele so it's a moot point and that's getting off topic.

Also what we call typical story AMVs exist as MADs. I had seen several back in 2000. They just weren't as common as all the stuff the VN fans made. Pretty sure VN fans making MADs were less likely to see heat from some company like Bandai so they proliferated more openly. Man now you got me remembering JP warez in the early 00s where you had to use those programs to assemble corrupt fake images files from different download sites and then recreate a lzh file from them. That warez storage method is pretty much how I got my CD worth of MADs back then. Boy did Winny sure change things.

outlawed wrote:I remember when we translated the MAD info page. Got some amusing commentary on different MAD creator webpages' bbs comments. Pretty much they were like omg who put this up we need to get it down. Unlike us over here where the JP companies have limited power to do anything they also have to worry more about getting shut down.

I also remember reading it was published. I didn't agree with all of your conclusions then, but I lacked context to really articulate my views. I have that context now, and I find that while my positions have changed on some of your analysis, it hasn't changed entirely.

I am well aware of the difference in how IP holders react inside of Japan and views of Japanese fandom towards anonymity. When I say tied to anonymity, I wasn't saying there wasn't justification for it. I perhaps was implying (as I've explicitly stated elsewhere), that I'm not going to follow their lead, and I would encourage Japanese creators to take a less anonymous role if we ever have any hopes of getting the LDP's safe space legislation passed. Although this is unlikely with the DPJ being so friendly with the IP holders. Doujin has a special place because it refused to back down. Douga creators, regardless of what we are called in Japan, and whether or not I qualify as a MAD creator or not (and that's a whole 'nother can of worm entirely which goes straight to the heart of nihonjinron and personal identity more), need to step up and be counted if there is ever hope to be recognised for our skillsets the way doujin artists are.

You can bet something like a large scale AMV contest would not fly over there unless it was backed by a particular corporate entity and had the proper restrictions in place. At that point it wouldn't really be the same thing. Let's also remember that it's standard procedure to keep your otaku status in the closet to begin with.

I'm not even talking about a large scale AMV contest. Most of our fandom meetings (I'm an active part of Yamato fandom, as an example. And I'm recognised as part of the extended Takada fandom since individuals who are not ethnic Japanese are so rare) are very, very small. Less than twenty people. Maybe as many as 50. Comiket is an entirely different type of event and is just not normal. It's an exception. Sustaining a Western style convention would be very difficult. An AMV contest would be impossible. I can't manage to get 10 Japanese creators in a single room. When I talking about events, I mean events like that.

As for otakudom being closeted... That's no longer accurate, at least not in the five years I've lived here. My students certainly are not shy about showing their fandom, and because of Yamato events and Takada events, I've had the chance to interact with how fandom exists in Japan. Likewise, I've met a number of Sailor Moon fans who are more than willing to discuss with me the finer points of Crystal Tokyo sociopolitical implications... at functions which are anything but anime related. It was surprising at first, but it's pretty cool now.

If you take fan out of the picture then you've moved on from AMV or MAD designation. What you have then is professional output. It's not the same thing.

Not sure if I agree. What if the professional output is created by a fan, as in the example a stipulated in the previous post? I just don't draw the distinction you do.

Plenty of doujin amateurs go pro but you don't see people making MADs in Japan as a doujin enterprise to go pro because they don't own the footage and music and would be sued into oblivion.

This may be true, but it certainly isn't legitimate. There is absolutely no difference from a transformative, derivative work perspective. It is more accurate to say that doujin artists are a legitimised pool of talent for assistantships and eventual headline creators. There are a number of successul headline artists who started off as doujin artists, several of my students are essentially doujin artists who hope to become headline artists, a number of assistants are hired from events such as Comiket, and a number of headline artists continue to put out doujin work under their own name or with a penname.

The problem with the current legislative environment and the DPJ's stance is that it doesn't recognise (as the LDP's legislation would have) that MADs (and AMVs, if there is a difference in Japan) are valid forms of transformative, derivative works which may be legitimised as a pool of talent for positions which required editing skills. We need to see that happen, and the fact the LDP showed knowledge of this value was a major step forward... and then they lost the election.

To be honest if I was an animator whether pro or an amateur in the doujin scene I would see AX's cash money AMV contest as a slap in the face. Cons over here exist to serve their clientele so it's a moot point and that's getting off topic.

Cash prizes are unethical. You'll get no argument from me.

Also what we call typical story AMVs exist as MADs. I had seen several back in 2000. They just weren't as common as all the stuff the VN fans made.

Zarxrax wrote:I've always been of the opinion "who the hell cares what you call it, if its an amazing piece of work, you can call it a dead fish for all I care, its still an amazing piece of work."

I think this is the better point. Ultimately AMV/MAD are just a shorthand label certain groups came up with to designate their thing.

I think a far more interesting analysis is JP MADs a lot of times are these sort of quircky joke things like a far side comic that either you get or you don't. The USA AMV scene was clearly heavily influenced by the fact it was the MTV generation pumping them out early on (dominance of the story based AMV). Also contests had an effect on the dominance of early Ranma or Weird Al videos (give the people what they want =p).

Kionon wrote:If a Japanese studio hired you tomorrow to edit for an official music video with all new animation for some anime series or anime short, and you really liked it, and you were fan, and you worked with the animators to do all the things which we normally do in AMV editing, and your work was released in Japan, would you honestly tell me you hadn't just made an AMV?

Except, ya know, it would NEVER work like that. Almost everything 'fancy' done in AMVs is done because it's pre-rendered output for broadcast. Everything else is just basic editing.

I can sorta imagine it now...

Editor: "So, I'm gonna mask out the characters from this scene, and layer them together with this, using this plugin to do this effect, and..."Animators: "Or we could just animate it like that... Which would be far less retarded..."Editor: "Oh good, then can you animate it like that for me?"Animators: "No, it's the DIRECTOR'S job to tell us what to animate, not yours. You just edit our animation like he tells you to do."

Oh! And before you say 'Well, what if the AMV editor was hired as a director?' No, no AMV editors are going to be hired as animation directors, not when 90% of AMV editors don't even know what 'The Rule Of Thirds' is without Googling it.

[quote="outlawed"]The USA AMV scene was clearly heavily influenced by the fact it was the MTV generation pumping them out early on (dominance of the story based AMV)./quote]

Actually, I strongly dislike official MTV style music videos. Most of them have no story and have nothing to do with the lyrics at all. There are exceptions, Tear For Fears' "Head Over Heels" is pretty cool, because the whole "in love with a librarian who ignoring me while I keep trying to convince her to go out with me" goes very well with the lyrics and the song, and there's some nice sync.

Most music videos I've seen since the late eighties on have left me thinking, "and just what did that have to do with the price of tea in China?"

Kionon wrote:Most music videos I've seen since the late eighties on have left me thinking, "and just what did that have to do with the price of tea in China?"

Ah, well you see, they aren't selling chinese tea, they are selling music

I think its more the fact that a few people made some amvs early on, and then people saw them at conventions or wherever, and then just copied it. "Hey, why don't I make something like that?"I mean, why are AMVs even a *thing*? When people watch anime, is their natural inclination to imagine the scenes playing along to a song? Most people would only have such thoughts if they had seen it done before.

I mean how did almost all of us get into AMVs to begin with? We saw other AMVs.