(04-04-2013 01:20 PM)Techgorilla Wrote: You are correct, assuming the simple fact of being in hell is not a punishment in itself.

For example: Living in a place full of fire and lava, and with thousands of little demons fucking with you would indeed count as punishment and in my view invalidate the point.

I'm not describing my belief in hell or lack thereof. I only used hellish imagery to make the point that a finite punishment can be made to last an eternity. Or in other words, an eternal punishment can be made commensurate with the crime. Eternal punishment doesn't necessarily mean "unjust" as is sometimes suggested.

(04-04-2013 01:20 PM)Techgorilla Wrote: You are correct, assuming the simple fact of being in hell is not a punishment in itself.

For example: Living in a place full of fire and lava, and with thousands of little demons fucking with you would indeed count as punishment and in my view invalidate the point.

I'm not describing my belief in hell or lack thereof. I only used hellish imagery to make the point that a finite punishment can be made to last an eternity. Or in other words, an eternal punishment can be made commensurate with the crime. Eternal punishment doesn't necessarily mean "unjust" as is sometimes suggested.

Can it really be called punishment then?

You are basically granting Hitler eternal life in exchange for a couple of decades of pain. I agree those decades of pain would be punishment, but the rest of it can be hardly categorized as such. I don't see how small and imperceptible amounts of pain for the rest of your life can be considered punishment.

(04-04-2013 01:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote: I'm not describing my belief in hell or lack thereof. I only used hellish imagery to make the point that a finite punishment can be made to last an eternity. Or in other words, an eternal punishment can be made commensurate with the crime. Eternal punishment doesn't necessarily mean "unjust" as is sometimes suggested.

Can it really be called punishment then?

You are basically granting Hitler eternal life in exchange for a couple of decades of pain. I agree those decades of pain would be punishment, but the rest of it can be hardly categorized as such. I don't see how small and imperceptible amounts of pain for the rest of your life can be considered punishment.

(04-04-2013 01:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote: I'm not describing my belief in hell or lack thereof. I only used hellish imagery to make the point that a finite punishment can be made to last an eternity. Or in other words, an eternal punishment can be made commensurate with the crime. Eternal punishment doesn't necessarily mean "unjust" as is sometimes suggested.

Can it really be called punishment then?

You are basically granting Hitler eternal life in exchange for a couple of decades of pain. I agree those decades of pain would be punishment, but the rest of it can be hardly categorized as such. I don't see how small and imperceptible amounts of pain for the rest of your life can be considered punishment.

If humans are created as eternal brings already, it is not an exchange of a couple of decades of pain for eternal life.

(04-04-2013 01:34 PM)Techgorilla Wrote: Can it really be called punishment then?

You are basically granting Hitler eternal life in exchange for a couple of decades of pain. I agree those decades of pain would be punishment, but the rest of it can be hardly categorized as such. I don't see how small and imperceptible amounts of pain for the rest of your life can be considered punishment.

If humans are created as eternal brings already, it is not an exchange of a couple of decades of pain for eternal life.

If humans were created as eternal beings why do we have such a problem when envisioning eternity?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

(04-04-2013 11:49 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote: A lot of atheists here have a problem with eternal damnation. They think it is unfair to punish somebody for eternity. Their thinking goes like this: Hitler, as bad as his actions were, his actions were finite so it would be unfair to give him an infinite amount of punishment. What these atheists fail to realize is that a finite amount of punishment can be spread over an inifinte amount of time.

Example: Suppose God judged Hitler and found that for his crimes against humanity Hitler deserves to endure X amount of pain. God then decides that the finite amount of pain Hitler is to endure be spread over an infinite time period. So God commands Lucifer that each year Hitler is in hell Hitler is to recieve only half of X. If X starts out as 1 trillion BTUs of heat or pain, Lucifer only dispenses a half trillion BTUs in the first year Hitler is in hell....that leaves Hitler with half a trillion BTUs to endure to satisfy his punishment. However, in the next year Lucifer only dispense a quarter trillion BTUs, in the third year Lucifer only dispenses an eighth and so on and so forth. Hitler never gets out of hell, his finite punishment goes on for eternity.

I think more atheists (being of better moral stock than most christians) have a bigger problem with the idea that your god, who supposedly loves all his children, would send a gay man, or a muslim woman, to burn/scream/choke/-n-die for ever & ever, than they do with the idea that jesus would punish non-stop for eternity. But both concepts are masochistic, and filthy!
Personally, it causes me to involuntarily facepalm when I see math & "statistics" alongside calculations of damnation!! Really :/ How long are the smoke breaks in heaven? St. Peter just might get a harp shoved up his ass if heaven's non-smoking!

(04-04-2013 01:34 PM)Techgorilla Wrote: Can it really be called punishment then?

You are basically granting Hitler eternal life in exchange for a couple of decades of pain. I agree those decades of pain would be punishment, but the rest of it can be hardly categorized as such. I don't see how small and imperceptible amounts of pain for the rest of your life can be considered punishment.

If humans are created as eternal brings already, it is not an exchange of a couple of decades of pain for eternal life.

You are correct. If humans are eternal by nature then you wouldn't be granting Hitler anything, you would just be punishing him for a couple of decades.

(04-04-2013 11:49 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote: A lot of atheists here have a problem with eternal damnation. They think it is unfair to punish somebody for eternity. Their thinking goes like this: Hitler, as bad as his actions were, his actions were finite so it would be unfair to give him an infinite amount of punishment. What these atheists fail to realize is that a finite amount of punishment can be spread over an inifinte amount of time.

Example: Suppose God judged Hitler and found that for his crimes against humanity Hitler deserves to endure X amount of pain. God then decides that the finite amount of pain Hitler is to endure be spread over an infinite time period. So God commands Lucifer that each year Hitler is in hell Hitler is to recieve only half of X. If X starts out as 1 trillion BTUs of heat or pain, Lucifer only dispenses a half trillion BTUs in the first year Hitler is in hell....that leaves Hitler with half a trillion BTUs to endure to satisfy his punishment. However, in the next year Lucifer only dispense a quarter trillion BTUs, in the third year Lucifer only dispenses an eighth and so on and so forth. Hitler never gets out of hell, his finite punishment goes on for eternity.

Here is evidence that your assertion is indeed false.

Matthew 3:12
"His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (NKJV)

Matthew 13:41–42
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NLT)

Matthew 13:50
... throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NLT)

Revelation 20:15
And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. (NLT)

Luke 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 20:10 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-

(04-04-2013 11:49 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote: A lot of atheists here have a problem with eternal damnation. They think it is unfair to punish somebody for eternity. Their thinking goes like this: Hitler, as bad as his actions were, his actions were finite so it would be unfair to give him an infinite amount of punishment. What these atheists fail to realize is that a finite amount of punishment can be spread over an inifinte amount of time.

Example: Suppose God judged Hitler and found that for his crimes against humanity Hitler deserves to endure X amount of pain. God then decides that the finite amount of pain Hitler is to endure be spread over an infinite time period. So God commands Lucifer that each year Hitler is in hell Hitler is to recieve only half of X. If X starts out as 1 trillion BTUs of heat or pain, Lucifer only dispenses a half trillion BTUs in the first year Hitler is in hell....that leaves Hitler with half a trillion BTUs to endure to satisfy his punishment. However, in the next year Lucifer only dispense a quarter trillion BTUs, in the third year Lucifer only dispenses an eighth and so on and so forth. Hitler never gets out of hell, his finite punishment goes on for eternity.

Here is evidence that your assertion is indeed false.

Matthew 3:12
"His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (NKJV)

Matthew 13:41–42
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NLT)

Matthew 13:50
... throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NLT)

Revelation 20:15
And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. (NLT)

(04-04-2013 01:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote: If humans are created as eternal brings already, it is not an exchange of a couple of decades of pain for eternal life.

You are correct. If humans are eternal by nature then you wouldn't be granting Hitler anything, you would just be punishing him for a couple of decades.

Except he would suffer for eternity...the initial part would be the most brutal and it would get less intense over time, but it would never end. Just because you could do the last stretch standing on your head doesn't mean it isn't punishment.

Also the initial part could last quit a long time simply by choosing a different fraction.