So, I'm playing through Morrowind, and was attacked by a Dark Brotherhood Assassin on the way to Balmora. I'm currently wearing his armor right now, since I don't have any other armor pieces. However, my character has medium armor as a major skill. Would it be worth it to sell the DB armor to buy better medium armor?

Well you could easily get a lot of money for it and buy some good weapons and armour but I would recommend getting the mod that delay the DB attacks because it's not intended to get attacked at such a low level as it's part of the Tribunal expansion which is meant for higher level players. As if you don't get the mod you will constantly get attacked and able to sell the gear for tons of money (well if that's what you want then keep it I guess)

But if you do keep it do not continue doing the questline for it yet until you are past level 15 (suggested by UESP wiki) since all the monsters and bosses for that expansion are meant for higher player levels as well. (Same thing with the bloodmoon expansion, do not go to the island of Solstheim yet)

Not every time, pretty rarely in fact but the first time is guaranteed. It can scare the shit out of you though, when you forget about the assassin and sleep in your cozy house and there's this freaky guy standing over you. It's even worse when those things that Dagoth Ur starts sending at you, I think ash zombies or something and they just scare me sometimes .

Not every time, pretty rarely in fact but the first time is guaranteed. It can scare the shit out of you though, when you forget about the assassin and sleep in your cozy house and there's this freaky guy standing over you. It's even worse when those things that Dagoth Ur starts sending at you, I think ash zombies or something and they just scare me sometimes .

I remember when I killed a shop keeper then went to sleep in his bed upstairs and I wake up with this guy wearing all black just standing over me, fucken scared the shit out of me. Someone needs to replace the DB armour in Skyrim with the one in Morrowind.

But that was because they were making it more organic and realistic with freedom.

In real-life I am not a "warrior, mage, or archer". Or in a more realistic term.

I am learning Game Level Design, while learning Texturing and also Animating.

Life doesn't work on classes, and Skyrim is a step in the right-direction, its all about freedom. You can still focus in only Heavy Combat, but now you're not screwed if you wanted to dabble and learn other things. Just like in real life.

Except for the fact that the whole RPG system is still designed around you sticking to a class. If you actually use your "freedom" to the full extent and try and do everything, you end up extremely underpowered late game because late game things are designed with strong character focus in mind.

Classes = strong character focus. This is very important to have in a game like this.

No classes = weak character focus. You can alievate this by making it so there are incentives to specilizing outside of just doing classes (i.e. like what I am doing with Perks N' Skills Advanced, where the starter perk for each skilltree is a "major skill" perk, and you can only have a max of 5 of them). Another way to do it is to make it so your character interactions low level feel substantually different compared to a high level character. Dark Souls does this great - low level characters are not going to be able to roll in heavy/good armor, they'll swing heavy weapons slow as piss, etc. A high level character on the otherhand performs, animates, and deals the damage as you'd expect an experienced individual to do.

All Skyrim does is basic number modifiers though. You effectively use all spells just as effectively as a novice, as you do when you are a master. The only thing that is different is base damage. This KILLS the illusion of character progression without using classes. Classes make you feel like you belong in a certain role, and have a specific trade you deal in, so it can really help get over these immersion-breaking habits developers tend to do. Without them, your game is naked and you need to clothe it the hard, but arguably more interesting way.

This is even further compounded by shouts, which basically give you demi-god status within hours of playing.

The RPG system in Skyrim is easily one of the most unbalanced and broken RPG systems in a western RPG to date. It's a good thing the game plays well as an action game to save it from having abysmal gameplay. Having classes would have seriously boosted the leveling system in the game, as would a number of other key improvements.

Alright I'm having a slight problem in Skyrim, maybe someone here can help.
I'm doing the quest where you have to go to Ustengrav and get the horn for the Greybeards. I got to the note, collected my swag, and tried to exit. Every time I hit E on the door to leave, it brings up the loading screen and then crashes to desktop.
I tried using movetoqt, crashes to desktop.
I tried backtracking the long way through the dungeon, the first map change door causes a crash to desktop.

Alright I'm having a slight problem in Skyrim, maybe someone here can help.
I'm doing the quest where you have to go to Ustengrav and get the horn for the Greybeards. I got to the note, collected my swag, and tried to exit. Every time I hit E on the door to leave, it brings up the loading screen and then crashes to desktop.
I tried using movetoqt, crashes to desktop.
I tried backtracking the long way through the dungeon, the first map change door causes a crash to desktop.

Except for the fact that the whole RPG system is still designed around you sticking to a class. If you actually use your "freedom" to the full extent and try and do everything, you end up extremely underpowered late game because late game things are designed with strong character focus in mind.

Classes = strong character focus. This is very important to have in a game like this.

No classes = weak character focus. You can alievate this by making it so there are incentives to specilizing outside of just doing classes (i.e. like what I am doing with Perks N' Skills Advanced, where the starter perk for each skilltree is a "major skill" perk, and you can only have a max of 5 of them). Another way to do it is to make it so your character interactions low level feel substantually different compared to a high level character. Dark Souls does this great - low level characters are not going to be able to roll in heavy/good armor, they'll swing heavy weapons slow as piss, etc. A high level character on the otherhand performs, animates, and deals the damage as you'd expect an experienced individual to do.

All Skyrim does is basic number modifiers though. You effectively use all spells just as effectively as a novice, as you do when you are a master. The only thing that is different is base damage. This KILLS the illusion of character progression without using classes. Classes make you feel like you belong in a certain role, and have a specific trade you deal in, so it can really help get over these immersion-breaking habits developers tend to do. Without them, your game is naked and you need to clothe it the hard, but arguably more interesting way.

This is even further compounded by shouts, which basically give you demi-god status within hours of playing.

The RPG system in Skyrim is easily one of the most unbalanced and broken RPG systems in a western RPG to date. It's a good thing the game plays well as an action game to save it from having abysmal gameplay. Having classes would have seriously boosted the leveling system in the game, as would a number of other key improvements.

Exactly if your an everything class you will be shit compared to if you actually focused on something.

Also Doommarine, what does realism have to do with a fantasy RPG? is that why Skyrim is the least fantasy like out of the recent Elder Scrolls games and lacking in variety compared to Morrowind and Oblivion because it's more ~realistic~ and just like KorJax said it's still designed still around having a specific character build not an everything character.

Also what the hell does learning level design, textures and animating have to do with the subject? I know level design, modelling, texturing and can map for source, cry engine and unreal, does that make my opinion worth anything for knowing subjects that have nothing to do with what we are talking about?

Also if you actually did know anything about level design you would know that you don't just take crap from real life and put it in a game and expect it to work out well, if that were the case why are we not forced to eat, sleep and drink or when we get a disease why aren't we bed ridden for weeks? because it's not fun, just like Skyrims design is not as fun compared to Morrowind. Take an example from Valve, there are CS maps inspired from real life but the key word here is inspired as they are not 1:1 replicas as it doesn't transition well from real life to game.

Sorry if it sounds harsh but the whole "I am learning Game Level Design, while learning Texturing and also Animating." makes it sound like your trying to make your opinion sound important by saying you know stuff that is related to game development even when it's not even related. The only thing related to this and what you said is applying the whole realistic system to the game it's self, while in theory Skyrims system sounds great it is not implemented well in game.

7th May 2012
Last edited by Philly c; 7th May 2012 at 04:43AM.
Post #1013

The RPG system in Skyrim is easily one of the most unbalanced and broken RPG systems in a western RPG to date. It's a good thing the game plays well as an action game to save it from having abysmal gameplay. Having classes would have seriously boosted the leveling system in the game, as would a number of other key improvements.

I agree with you about skyrim. There's not really much more I can add. Everything sucks.

But i'm just not convinced about levels or classes at all. I wish there was a better solution to character development other than arbitrary meta gaming. It would be interesting to see your opinion on that.

Although since I don't necessarily have the answers, i'm still open to anything. If levels and classes have to stay, perhaps they should affect only the players abilities. So items are just items and enemies are just enemies with naturally different difficulty. Nothing is leveled.

In real-life I am not a "warrior, mage, or archer". Or in a more realistic term.

"The class" system has always been like an occupation. You get out of prison and you're Redavin the Fucking Bearded Wizard who is trained in wizardly crap like alchemy, destruction and alteration. That's what class creation is for, it's to create a character that has existed in the game world prior to the beginning event, and he/she has those skills and attributes that would have fit somebody of that occupation. Skyrim on the other hand, you're just Generic McGee the blob of humanoid flesh with a tiny racial skill bonus, and then you get to spend the next 10 game levels grinding your way into the class you could have started as.

doommarine23 posted:

You can still focus in only Heavy Combat, but now you're not screwed if you wanted to dabble and learn other things. Just like in real life.

When were you ever screwed in previous elder scrolls games for wanting to switch? For that matter how has skyrim improved on that at all? You already spent your perks and it becomes harder to level up as you go so you're basically just as screwed, if not moreso than before.

In fact the only thing skyrim has done in that regard is add retardedly powerful enchantments to all the guild armor so people who have trained to be fighters can slip a thieves guild uniform on so they can do some thief cosplay until the lame-ass guild questline is over.

"The class" system has always been like an occupation. You get out of prison and you're Redavin the Fucking Bearded Wizard who is trained in wizardly crap like alchemy, destruction and alteration. That's what class creation is for, it's to create a character that has existed in the game world prior to the beginning event, and he/she has those skills and attributes that would have fit somebody of that occupation. Skyrim on the other hand, you're just Generic McGee the blob of humanoid flesh with a tiny racial skill bonus, and then you get to spend the next 10 game levels grinding your way into the class you could have started as.

This, a million billion times this.

Skyrim's character development is fuuu-ucked.

-They took out Acrobatics and Athletics because "everyone would run and jump"
-They kept in lockpicking and speech (because most players ignore treasure and never sell anything)
-Lockpicking will always be one of your top three skills, and will constantly be leveling you up before you want to (was not a problem in Oblivion because you chose your level skills)
-Fully half the perks in the game are completely useless
-Half of the useful perks are stupid, lazy percentage increases
-Almost every skill tree has a game-breaking perk
-The stat system is no longer as fucked as it used to be - at the expense of now being completely boring (holy shit, awesome, I leveled up. +10 health, fucking sweet.)
-At level 1 you can be a master wizard, or a master assassin, or an invincible warrior
-At level 10 you can only really rely on one archetype
-At level 30 you are completely fucked if you try to fight in a way outside your skillset
-Noncombat skills and combat skills share the same system, meaning all your points are going towards your core DPS or protective skill (and, uh, probably not towards making pickpocketing 20% easier.)
-The class system is still fucking there, it just takes the form of standing stones now

Without mods,

-Smithing is broken (easily exploited, awful grind if you do it legitimately)
-Both armor skills are broken (weightless perk completely invalidates light armor, heavy makes you practically invincible with smithing)
-Destruction is broken (becomes useless lategame, dual-cast stagger is fucked)
-Craft skills in general are broken (VERY easily exploited)
-Conjuration is broken (leveled summons means you don't ever actually have to do anything in combat)
-Speech is broken (Riften bug)
-Sneak is broken (ruins traps, quickly hits 100, makes you practically invisible and allows you to 1-hit almost any enemy)

I could forgive any number of balance problems in a singleplayer game if the system is still engaging but it's not because, as toad pointed out, you're not creating and roleplaying a character, you're grinding from the start just to pathetically carve out a starting niche for yourself, but all that does is make you weaker at everything else thanks to the scaling system. There's no depth. There's no reward for trying to make an interesting character.

Skyrim has so many glaring problems. If it wasn't for the robust combat system or the oodles of content, it would be an absolutely terrible game. Bethesda's marketing department might've had a bigger role in it's success than the actual developers.

Holy shit does Skyrim have so many bugs, glitches, crashes, AI problems, physics errors, and misc issues. The PS3 version is even worse. (Prior last patch). How is Bethesda able to get away with such poor quality-control when other devs do not?

I am learning Game Level Design, while learning Texturing and also Animating.

Life doesn't work on classes, and Skyrim is a step in the right-direction, its all about freedom. You can still focus in only Heavy Combat, but now you're not screwed if you wanted to dabble and learn other things. Just like in real life.

Oh wow, I didn't see this post earlier.

First of all: Going to school for a video game degree does not actually qualify you as any kind of expert. Experience is a hundred times more valuable than education in this particular field. Video game degrees are less valuable than general programming or media degrees, even to game studios. You can't teach people how to make art, you can only show them the techniques. Gameplay design is something that only comes with experience and long, objective, thoughtful observation.

Second: You are actually screwed if you try to learn other things, because there is a practical level cap. If you split your playtime between too many skills, you're fucked. The system is broken from top to bottom.

In Oblivion, you could learn skills on the side, because only 7 player-chosen skills would work towards leveling you up. This gave characters focus without restricting the game in any way.

In Skyrim, you can't learn skills on the side without leveling up, there is no incentive to leveling up, and leveling up makes the game more difficult. Ironically, by trying to make the gameplay more freeform, they've ruined the mechanic entirely.

The only benefit to leveling up in Skyrim is that you get cooler armor. and you can get the coolest armors just by blowing through the short guild questlines anyway.

Anyone of you know where I could place a little of town approximately 10-12 buildings?
Also, close to the coast is bonus. I'm thinking about a local mining town in a mod, with mines and such. They used to mine cobalt in the 1700's

First of all: Going to school for a video game degree does not actually qualify you as any kind of expert. Experience is a hundred times more valuable than education in this particular field. Video game degrees are less valuable than general programming or media degrees, even to game studios. You can't teach people how to make art, you can only show them the techniques. Gameplay design is something that only comes with experience and long, objective, thoughtful observation.

His point wasn't about "oh im learning to make games im an EXPORT" it was noting that in reality one is not simply an "artist" or "programmer", these things are made up of many other skills (actual 3d modelling, texture creation, UV mapping, animation, etc).
Having restricted class archetypes just doesn't make sense in an RPG made to be immersive; they're a gameplay abstraction to make things easier to balance. Of course, Skyrim is an example of open skill systems gone wrong but I'd rather have a broken system that's fun to a working system that's boring. And to pre-emptively naysay people who are going to scream that Skyrim's system isn't fun; fun and enjoyment are subjective anyway.

Frankly I think the root of it lies at 'levelling up' rather than basing the scaling off your skills themselves. It's an open skill system jammed into a levelled system and the two are compatible like my parents - they act civil but they're still divorced for a damn reason.

See what would make sense is scaling activities in the world based on your character skills; enemies get stronger and better geared based on your combat skills, quests where you might have to make potions will request more powerful potions based on your alchemy skill, that kind of thing. Of course there's no such quest variety in Skyrim anyway. It's an ARPG with an immersive world, really.

7th May 2012
Last edited by Sector 7; 7th May 2012 at 07:38AM.
Post #1022

Having restricted class archetypes just doesn't make sense in an RPG made to be immersive; they're a gameplay abstraction to make things easier to balance. Of course, Skyrim is an example of open skill systems gone wrong but I'd rather have a broken system that's fun to a working system that's boring. And to pre-emptively naysay people who are going to scream that Skyrim's system isn't fun; fun and enjoyment are subjective anyway.

Au contrare, I think classes help immersion immensely. Actors have their own guidelines for inspiration. When you make a character, from the moment you choose a race, you've got a vision in mind, an archetype, an identity, and keeping that vision on-board as a gameplay element helps to guide the player's progression on their own terms. I've made a slew of characters in Skyrim that I stopped playing once I realized that I would just fall into the same old routines. In a completely open system, you're not role playing, you're just playing. The distinction is subtle, but immense.

Au contrare, I think classes help immersion immensely. Actors have their own guidelines for inspiration. When you make a character, from the moment you choose a race, you've got a vision in mind, an archetype, an identity, and keeping that vision on-board as a gameplay element helps to guide the player's progression on their own terms. I've made a slew of characters in Skyrim that I stopped playing once I realized that I would just fall into the same old routines. In a completely open system, you're not role playing, you're just playing. The distinction is subtle, but immense.

I could not have said it any better myself. This sums pretty much everything up.

I'm rolling an odd setup for me right now. I'm a Breton Battlemage, with the focus on battle. I wear Heavy Armor, use Two-Handed weapons, Conjure up allies/re-animate the dead, and heal with magic. I don't use Destruction too often. Is Destruction magic still effective even when not leveled primarily? I downloaded Balanced Magic, so that should help. And are bound weapons any good, if upgraded for damage or assisted with leveling mods?

I could not have said it any better myself. This sums pretty much everything up.

I absolutely agree. My first character was some badass Nord - I even put a lot of time just on his appearance. Thing is - I ended up using skills I wouldn't have used otherwise, just because it was way easier to do so. Suddenly this huge bulky guy is able to pick any lock, shoots arrows like a goddamn sniper and is so heavy on speech that he could even convince the gods to make him an own universe. But that wasn't what I had in mind for him, so I eventually stopped playing that character - he was just boring, because all these elements didn't fit for a huge grumpy nord that slashes through his enemies on pure strength. Therefore the whole mechanics killed my attempt on roleplaying.

7th May 2012
Last edited by proch; 7th May 2012 at 10:05AM.
Post #1030

I think my main issue with Skyrim is the quests. There aren't any memorable quests outside of the select few like "A night to remember".

I feel that Oblivion had a lot more quests that stick out to me. I also felt like the people in Oblivion really cared about what you did for them compared to Skyrim. In Skyrim once you complete a quest that's it.

I still like Skyrim a lot, but I just wish that it was in a different setting and had the dialogue and quests like Oblivion.

A night to remember was really, really awesome though

Then again, in Oblivion, first thing that comes to mind is that painting quest. That SI quest where you push those buttons. Paranoia quest. And those are just of the top of my head.

I think the only thing that I really don't like about skyrim is the leveling system and the loot system. Everything else I can look past. First off, it's way to easy to find gold and great loot at the start of the game. By level 9 (I'll get to the leveling in a minute) I have well over a 5000 gold, even if I've bought a lot of things. If it's really easy to get gold, it's also too easy to just buy higher-level gear at an early level, which gets rid of the challenge of getting gear. Oblivion did well in this aspect, because not every single enemy you kill will drop 10 gold. The most you would find on the average bandit is 1-5 pieces, then MAYBE 50 in the big reward box at the end of the dungeon, if you were lucky. This makes it more of a challenge to get good items.

What are you talking about, In Oblivion an alchemist can easily get 10000 at the beginning of the game. I'm playing around 30 hours or so and I've got 150000 gold pieces, without any mods which can bring me in gold.

In fact, I'd like it better if there wasn't a leveled enemy/loot system at all. Your armor doesn't magically get more protective over time, and neither does your weapon get more powerful, and neither do your enemies. There should be loot in dungeons that you can't get to without more powerful spells or higher skills, there should be dungeons filled with creatures that your dinky ass iron sword can't do shit to, so you have to find a new one/wait until you get enough money to buy one.

That is really true though. I also hate that if you already got a say Glass Armor in Oblivion, or Daedric Armor in Skyrim, you basically reached the top of it. I'd rather have every material have it's own characteristics, so that you would rather change them depending on what you need. That applies to pretty much most RPG's though.

I don't really like the weapon/armor system in oblivion or skyrim. I don't wanna run around with an elven sword and orcish armor because it's better than iron equipment which looks much better and is much more fitting for my brutal nord warrior.

You know that, historically, those with better forging techniques won the wars? Go ahead and keep a primitive armor, of course it wouldn't compare with advanced ones. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE IN REAL LIFE.

Not to mention, heavy armor is pretty much all based on Iron, Ebony being pretty much meteor iron.

Oh, and with smithing, you can have iron equipment superior to untampered DAEDRIC one. Heck, my Iron DAGGERS are almost at 100 damage.

You know that, historically, those with better forging techniques won the wars? Go ahead and keep a primitive armor, of course it wouldn't compare with advanced ones. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE IN REAL LIFE.

Not to mention, heavy armor is pretty much all based on Iron, Ebony being pretty much meteor iron.

Oh, and with smithing, you can have iron equipment superior to untampered DAEDRIC one. Heck, my Iron DAGGERS are almost at 100 damage.

This is a game, it doesn't change the fact that players like the to keep their starting gear and making it better. Realism has no place in this game, well except for some parts. I really like the starting armors but they are rendered useless pretty fast because you will need superior gear (when playing on master) to somewhat survive.

I also doubt that the iron dagger is at 100 damage, although you could use every blacksmith potion, enchanted gauntlets and 100 smithing. I wonder if you can really reach that much.

Starting gear is supposed to be of low quality in every game. AND realistically speaking it also makes sense. What doesn't make sense is you complaining of a breastplate of raw iron being weaker than a full body armor made with advanced forging techniques. You are pretty much complaining about Rattata not being on par with Snorlax.

Enchanting freedom FTW, while we are at that. Fortify Smithing/Alchemy Apron, Cowl, Boots, Gloves, Ring and Necklace, plus fortify Smithing potion made with that on. And perks in One Handed boosting damage.