I know for ME, the only time I have wanted to smack is when I am angry, and I can see how doing it in this situation, can lead to more if a person was not able to stop themselves. And yes I have seen it happen, and had it happen to me.

Look there probably are people who can just do just a smack, but I have not see this myself or experienced it growing up.

Isn't the point of a smack to make the child fear doing it again? Why does making them afraid to do it again seem the right thing to do? What about them learning to not want to because they know its not the right thing to do, and they actually want to do the right thing?

I am sorry, I don't want to argue. I am trying to understand where other people are coming from.
I just see fear as the reason for doing this.

For those who were smacked, were you not afraid to do the wrong thing? Is that not why you say it "worked"?

I don't think I would ever smack in anger. It just makes the anger more intense and leads to stress. A smack serves two purposes:
1.- To break a child out of an emotional meltdown. (I used to have panic attacks and physical pain was what helped me break out. I'd usually just use cold water on myself, but a child may not be aware of how to do that and probably wouldn't choose to.)
2.- When the negative behaviour can't be talked about. If you have a two-year old in the habit of climbing book-cases, how do you explain bone-fractures, severe pain, crushed skulls and death to them? What is more likely to traumatize a kid that age: connecting "book-shelf-climbing" and "smack to the bum" or having someone show them what they'd look like if a shelf ever fell on them? Because, to a kid that age, death is something sad that just happens to others, not something that happens to THEM and explaining "a falling book-shelf can hurt you" may not suffice. The idea of punishment acts as the main deterrent until the child understands the danger.

As for fear: why don't you climb on the handrails of bridges? Why don't you stick your hand in fire? Fear is the main reason most of us are alive. But young kids, who often struggle to understand concepts such as death and the frailty of the human form, are fearless, at least inasmuch as they don't fear abstract concepts, or things they have not experienced. Until they have felt the consequences (burnt hand) they won't stop endangering themselves for fun (sticking hand out to "catch" a flame). They're even more reckless when it comes to the lives and safety of other lifeforms, like babies. A fear of physical pain could be the only thing between some kids and an encounter with death.

Physical punishment may only be required twice in a child's entire life, but, when it's required, a parent shouldn't just "be nice" and let the kid continue to endanger themselves.

--
Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

--
I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
I'd apologize, but...

Except that there is always a way for the parent to teach the same thing that simply doesn't involve the hitting.

Toddler who likes to climb book-shelves. There are loose, unstable book-shelves everywhere you go. You have a small baby which also requires attention, so you can't watch the toddler every second it's awake. Sometimes the toddler gets up before you, sometimes you need to attend to the house, sometimes you're answering a call/talking, sometimes you need to attend to the baby. Whenever your back is turned, the kid ends up halfway up a wobbling book-shelf. The kid has been twice rescued from a shelf before it collapsed on them, but has never fallen or had a shelf fall on them, and doesn't seem to believe it will really happen.
The kid has been explained that a falling shelf will hurt them. Response: "not scared of bumps". The kid has been told they could die, but doesn't seem to take it in. Whenever your back is turned, at home, at a friend's house, at playgroup, at the library, at the Drs... the kid climbs shelves. You're scared the child will kill itself. It's a cause of continual stress and worry. You can't take your eye off the child without worrying. What do you do to deter them from climbing the shelf?

--
Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

--
I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
I'd apologize, but...

lol climb it yourself, so that it falls apart in a scary crashing dramatic scene, leaving only rubble that cannot be climbed?

"Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

What about kids that are just naturally cruel and shitty? Is it a parent thing to deny that their kids can be this way, so now I will just get 3 pages of, "NEVER! No child is like that!"? Because there are a lot of kids that are just fuckin cruel assholes.

"Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

Toddler who likes to climb book-shelves. There are loose, unstable book-shelves everywhere you go. You have a small baby which also requires attention, so you can't watch the toddler every second it's awake. Sometimes the toddler gets up before you, sometimes you need to attend to the house, sometimes you're answering a call/talking, sometimes you need to attend to the baby. Whenever your back is turned, the kid ends up halfway up a wobbling book-shelf. The kid has been twice rescued from a shelf before it collapsed on them, but has never fallen or had a shelf fall on them, and doesn't seem to believe it will really happen.
The kid has been explained that a falling shelf will hurt them. Response: "not scared of bumps". The kid has been told they could die, but doesn't seem to take it in. Whenever your back is turned, at home, at a friend's house, at playgroup, at the library, at the Drs... the kid climbs shelves. You're scared the child will kill itself. It's a cause of continual stress and worry. You can't take your eye off the child without worrying. What do you do to deter them from climbing the shelf?

In your home... secure the book shelves with brackets. Each shelf and to the wall.
It's actually really easy and basic.
I have experienced climbing kids.
You don't have to hit them.

When not at home... stop leaving your child unattended. Seriously.
That is irresponsible.
When out in public you should be watching your child.
Especially in situations where you know that it is likely it could be hurt (i.e a climber in a room full of unsecured book shelves) .
You wouldn't leave it unattended next to a swimming pool would you?
No swat on the bottom will prevent a curious toddler from falling in and drowning...
Also... those climbers. They might just climb again after that swat, but look to make sure you aren't within eyesight next time.
That's how kids respond to spanking sometimes. They just try to hide behaviors better to avoid swats.

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
~Friedrich Nietzsche
And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

Ayla is right on the money with the wife/girlfriend analogy. Most people don't even second guess entertaining the thought of a fully grown adult hitting a small child. But if I put up a thread asking if it's ok for me to physically discipline my girlfriend, the outpouring of hypocrisy would almost be funny if it weren't so tragic. The irony being that my girlfriend is actually physically and mentally developed enough to pose a potential thread that justifies violence. A child is not.

Admittedly I don't have kids, but she and I regularly babysit for 3 friends who have kids around the ages of 2, 4, and 5. I just can't picture a scenario where hitting them is the only possible solution. Even if they picked up knives and came after me Chucky-style, they're so little. The fact that they're not even my own flesh and blood makes me wonder what the hell is going on in the heads of parents who hit their own.

Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy

What about kids that are just naturally cruel and shitty? Is it a parent thing to deny that their kids can be this way, so now I will just get 3 pages of, "NEVER! No child is like that!"? Because there are a lot of kids that are just fuckin cruel assholes.

And where did they learn that behavior? Were they watching re-runs of Jerry Springer in the fucking womb?

“The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

But if I put up a thread asking if it's ok for me to physically discipline my girlfriend, the outpouring of hypocrisy would almost be funny if it weren't so tragic.

That would depend on the type of relationship you and your girlfriend were engaged in. As you are both consenting adults, I have no issue with the idea. As long as it was agreed upon discipline and not "When I get mad I just smack the shit out of her"

What about kids that are just naturally cruel and shitty? Is it a parent thing to deny that their kids can be this way, so now I will just get 3 pages of, "NEVER! No child is like that!"? Because there are a lot of kids that are just fuckin cruel assholes.

If a child is like that... then it is because the parent has reinforced those behaviors.
It happens every single day.

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
~Friedrich Nietzsche
And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

That would depend on the type of relationship you and your girlfriend were engaged in. As you are both consenting adults, I have no issue with the idea. As long as it was agreed upon discipline and not "When I get mad I just smack the shit out of her"

If a fully grown woman honestly consents to the idea of her husband disciplining her, it's pretty much a 100% guarantee that her parents beat the shit out of and/or molested her. Do you even psychology?

“The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris