To be frank, most games with PvP are like this. Whether it's by design or because of the players depends on the game, but it still boils down to those percentages. Other MMOs and FPS are zerg first, hope you are more accurate/better at pushing buttons, strategy fifth.

Not sure what you mean by multi-mode raids.
The first boss on normal mode went down if you sneezed. Obviously if people were working on that for 9+ months and didn't get it, they weren't a raider.

---------- Post added 2012-10-04 at 07:47 AM ----------

For just as many people that are sitting on a bench, you have people that are running alts in another guild.

Really, raiding isn't the end all be all to MMOs. GW2 is fine without raids

I also think GW2 is fine without raids, but I think they could have put a bit more attention to long-term goals. These can be goals you can put work towards even while leveling. In GW2, a good example is dyes. In WoW, pets and mounts are a good example. In both, achievements are a good example, but GW2 needs to make achievements much more front and center. They're there, but people kind of forget about them. In WoW, they were in your face. People cared about things like killing 50 deer because it gave you achievements and points. GW2 could benefit HUGELY by selling achievements more. More upfront dings, put achievement scores by character names in the hero screen, make a way to check people's achievements. Give special achieve only titles, pets, mounts etc! Its where GW2 needs to go. Its something you can do at all levels, but is a very long-term goal.

And, like WoW now, they should be account-wide and include things like level 5 characters to 80, kill jormag on 3 different characters, gain a total of 200 levels, etc.

Achievements, given the correct esteem rewards can be used as incentive to get players to do all sorts of wonderful, long-term, hard things they may normally never care about.

At this point, I have to ask, why must it be unlimited? Also, the speed at which you finish it depends greatly on both what you consider "finishing" it, as well as how much you play it and in which manner you play it. Just like a single-player game is, like Deus Ex, Skyrim, Fallout, UFO: Enemy Unknown, Dungeons of Dredmor, Neverwinter Nights, or any other single-player game you can think of. If I play, say, Skyrim doing nothing but the main storyline I can probably finish it in no more than a few hours - but if I take my time and explore and do sidequests and whatnot, it can keep me entertained for ~200 hours in one playthrough. See how the manner in which you play affects how quickly you finish it? As another example, if I enter a cave just to finish it and nothing else, I can do that in ~5 minutes, double or triple that time if I'm looking for secrets, items and just generally enjoying the scenery. I can shell out $60 for a 60-hour game and feel very satisfied with that (value for money: $1 per hour), so why shouldn't I be able to enjoy an MMO that I can play just as long (or more) for the same price?

Sadly I believe a lot of people have been forcibly schooled into a belief that an MMO, by definition, has to be played ad infinitum.

At a little over 38 skins per character (for heavy) its disappointing.

Which is more than you get in other mmos upon release. The game hasn't been out that long, more models will be added over time.

As for the raid/no raid discussion. Well, for me the game does have raids and it does a better job at them, than anything I've ever played before.

I understand that PvP might feel like a big zerg when you're new to it. Until you stumble upon a group that knows how to play. In general, things seem messy when you don't understand them. Go watch a match of BJJ, if you don't get what's going on, you'll probably think it's two dudes just hugging eachother.

I would have to say that a huge concession should be made for this game, because it was clearly designed to involved a lot of strategy other than zerging. That's why the maps are so large and have so many 'ways' to go about marauding through them. The only way I could think that would break up the roving horde would be to make castles easier to take. The doors would have to be nerfed to oblivion, so that 5 people could quickly take something if they were focused.

Of course this is at odds with a lot of other highlights of WvW, like siege weaponry and having an opportunity to defend the keeps. It is very hard to balance. We also have to remember that actual war used to be fought with a larger army zerging everything. That used to be a 'strategy'. Life still teaches us that the more people we can get to do one action, we are more likely to succeed at it with minimal effort of our own.

I would have to say that a huge concession should be made for this game, because it was clearly designed to involved a lot of strategy other than zerging. That's why the maps are so large and have so many 'ways' to go about marauding through them. The only way I could think that would break up the roving horde would be to make castles easier to take. The doors would have to be nerfed to oblivion, so that 5 people could quickly take something if they were focused.

Of course this is at odds with a lot of other highlights of WvW, like siege weaponry and having an opportunity to defend the keeps. It is very hard to balance. We also have to remember that actual war used to be fought with a larger army zerging everything. That used to be a 'strategy'. Life still teaches us that the more people we can get to do one action, we are more likely to succeed at it with minimal effort of our own.

You can also think of it this way: if the enemy is zerging, that means most, if not all, of their forces are massing to attack a single location. A keep can easily be held by a force half or even a quarter the size of the attacking force, especially if the supplies are full. Meanwhile, as most or all enemy forces are battering their faces into your door, you can lead a significant part of your force to assault a keep or supply post the enemy owns, which is lightly defended, if at all.

Zerging is not the most optimal way to play the game, particularly WvWvW, and the longer it takes for people to realize that, the better for us that can exploit that lack of adaptability.

I would have to say that a huge concession should be made for this game, because it was clearly designed to involved a lot of strategy other than zerging. That's why the maps are so large and have so many 'ways' to go about marauding through them. The only way I could think that would break up the roving horde would be to make castles easier to take. The doors would have to be nerfed to oblivion, so that 5 people could quickly take something if they were focused.

The doors can be taken down by 5 people within minutes if they bring siege equipment

---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 03:20 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Jigain

You can also think of it this way: if the enemy is zerging, that means most, if not all, of their forces are massing to attack a single location. A keep can easily be held by a force half or even a quarter the size of the attacking force, especially if the supplies are full. Meanwhile, as most or all enemy forces are battering their faces into your door, you can lead a significant part of your force to assault a keep or supply post the enemy owns, which is lightly defended, if at all.

Zerging is not the most optimal way to play the game, particularly WvWvW, and the longer it takes for people to realize that, the better for us that can exploit that lack of adaptability.

Exactly.

Most people who complain about the game don't really seem to get/adapt to the design. This is most apparent on profession forums, where people whine about professions bot being exactly like they want them to be. Masses of spoiled gamers are so had to please ^^

OP, thanks for the balanced and downtoned review. Good read and I genuinely think this is one of the most honest opinions I've seen that actively avoids bashing

Also, I agree on most counts.

I do believe that the 'directionlessness' of the game is what puts me off most though. Going for pretty much the same experience lvl 1-80 whether it's pvp or pve isn't very fun to me. Tastes differ and all that.

If you wanted skill-based PvP, why didn't you start playing DotA?
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I'd agree with you to about 70%, but some of the stuff you criticise are what I like (and Arenanet said prior to game release that is what they're going for). Like a cosmetic gear progression and WvW. Also, if you haven't played with actual dedicated groups if WvW you haven't enjoyed it fully. Yes, if you go into WvW and find a random zerg, it's going to feel zergy. Play with your guild.

OP, thanks for the balanced and downtoned review. Good read and I genuinely think this is one of the most honest opinions I've seen that actively avoids bashing

Also, I agree on most counts.

I do believe that the 'directionlessness' of the game is what puts me off most though. Going for pretty much the same experience lvl 1-80 whether it's pvp or pve isn't very fun to me. Tastes differ and all that.

Thank you, I try to give honest opinions and not just rage/fanboi opinions. Though if i had the chance I would have loved to add some things i missed. Like the AMAZING crafting system in the game and the boring (human) story. I really wanted to mention the story because I haven't experienced all the combos and thier may be an epic one out there that I dont know of (but I hear they are al basically the sasme after 40?). I also didn't mention the (relatively) smooth launch where other games recently (diablo/SWToR) had rough launches. and really what other game launches thier game horus EARLY that was awesome.

While I agree there are other "options" in end game if you break them all down they all fall short individually, except maybe roleplaying, because you really don't need much if you enjoy it. The journey is great but limited, it goes by really quick, heck I didn't even "race" to 100% completion. I explored, watched EVERY vista, did jumping puzzles and help friends out in areas I had already completed.

As far a PvP goes, GW2 in its current incarnation lacks very little depth 90% of the time. I know someone else on this board posted it earlier in this topic its 90% zerg 10% strategy, which if your looking for PvP end game with depth this isn't the game for you.

What do YOU define as the end game?

End game to me is stuff I do at max level (note it's not stuff to do, it's the stuff I end up doing because it is fun/ will result in something fun). (only applies to MMOs)

PvE in this game will keep me playing for as long as PvE in wow kept me playing in each expansions, even more. You may be done with PvE while watching all the vistas, I take my time to appreciate the dynamic events and stories that I find interesting. For example: I went back to my azura starting zone for cooking materials and found a whole bunch of dynamic events I didn't appreciate the first time around. Found one of best (imo) jumping puzzles and events in the reactor and spent 4 hours while getting 0 % world completion. So no, I don't think PvE to me will be even nearly as brief as it was to you, considering 1 month for 33% world completion, I need 3 months just to get 100% completion (playing a lot to my standards) and more to do dungeons, level alts, learning other classes, doing jumping puzzles and exploring. So you clearly get less time of PvE than I do the way you like to play, shrug.

Now it is interesting that I don't like to "go back" and do stuff in other MMOs, so while it is part of the end game in this game, it is not so in WoW or other games for me. I attribute this to the scaling down of gear/ level and cosmetic rewards (that does give me that final push I need to go back there). The scaling down keep things interesting and fresh (I never went to BT because I don't like the experience of overleveling a place, it makes it feel broken to me, I don't enjoy that). The fact that it is not optional also keeps a healthy amount of people willing to go for that content (I do have a lvl 70 character in WoW that I kept just for running BC content, but despite my efforts, I never managed to get any lvl 70 raids done, even with crossrealms*)

Depth in PvP is very subjective also, I find this game's PvP to have more depth than in any other MMO I've played, choosing your skills/traits wisely from a multitude of valid builds is true depth to me, healers in PvP, not so interesting to either be one or play against one, it just feels displaced in RPGs (just broke a leg, np I can heal from broken leg 5 times in 10 seconds). But then, I like casual friendly PvP (one that gives me room for improvements, changes and participating in ranked stuff without needing a PhD in PvP), so maybe if you don't like the fact that it is harder to faceroll less skilled people you may not like PvP in this game.

So I can assure you, depending on the way you play, this game is not "cosmetic" driven at all.

*this brings me to the off topic point of how "optional difficulties" of the same content are not quite "optional" in MMOs, since you are dependent on other people. LFR indeed drove me away from raids in WoW forever, despite the fact that I liked raiding.

End game to me is stuff I do at max level (note it's not stuff to do, it's the stuff I end up doing because it is fun/ will result in something fun). (only applies to MMOs)

PvE in this game will keep me playing for as long as PvE in wow kept me playing in each expansions, even more. You may be done with PvE while watching all the vistas, I take my time to appreciate the dynamic events and stories that I find interesting. For example: I went back to my azura starting zone for cooking materials and found a whole bunch of dynamic events I didn't appreciate the first time around. Found one of best (imo) jumping puzzles and events in the reactor and spent 4 hours while getting 0 % world completion. So no, I don't think PvE to me will be even nearly as brief as it was to you, considering 1 month for 33% world completion, I need 3 months just to get 100% completion (playing a lot to my standards) and more to do dungeons, level alts, learning other classes, doing jumping puzzles and exploring. So you clearly get less time of PvE than I do the way you like to play, shrug.

Now it is interesting that I don't like to "go back" and do stuff in other MMOs, so while it is part of the end game in this game, it is not so in WoW or other games for me. I attribute this to the scaling down of gear/ level and cosmetic rewards (that does give me that final push I need to go back there). The scaling down keep things interesting and fresh (I never went to BT because I don't like the experience of overleveling a place, it makes it feel broken to me, I don't enjoy that). The fact that it is not optional also keeps a healthy amount of people willing to go for that content (I do have a lvl 70 character in WoW that I kept just for running BC content, but despite my efforts, I never managed to get any lvl 70 raids done, even with crossrealms*)

Depth in PvP is very subjective also, I find this game's PvP to have more depth than in any other MMO I've played, choosing your skills/traits wisely from a multitude of valid builds is true depth to me, healers in PvP, not so interesting to either be one or play against one, it just feels displaced in RPGs (just broke a leg, np I can heal from broken leg 5 times in 10 seconds). But then, I like casual friendly PvP (one that gives me room for improvements, changes and participating in ranked stuff without needing a PhD in PvP), so maybe if you don't like the fact that it is harder to faceroll less skilled people you may not like PvP in this game.

So I can assure you, depending on the way you play, this game is not "cosmetic" driven at all.

*this brings me to the off topic point of how "optional difficulties" of the same content are not quite "optional" in MMOs, since you are dependent on other people. LFR indeed drove me away from raids in WoW forever, despite the fact that I liked raiding.

Whats the "age" of your toon? type /age. I don't feel like I rushed through the game at all, i wasn't racing to lvl 80 or anything I was just casually going through zones, doing DE's first then hearts. And what stories are you referring to? Is there some lore pieces I'm missing? Every time I do a heart I find the quest giver and get maybe 1 paragraph of why I'm doing anything. Not that its all connected in the zone in any way. Unless your referring to the personal story, in which case I want to know what race/background you picked, I did Human (middle class/sister) and ugh it was the epitah of a boring story.

As far as the PvP goes I'm just going to have to plain disagree with you (and thats ok we both have valid opinions). SWG, WoW and EvE all (to me) have deeper PvP. Also, I'd argue its SUPER easy to face roll people in this game, GS Warrior/Gaurdian are just so easy to play right now its boring, a warrior with a GS can auto attack elementalist or necros down, before they can do significant damage to them, its sickening. The only depth I see in GW PvP right now if your stat weights beyond that its very bland. Unless you think 40 on 40 zerg AoE fest is "deep". Atleast in a game like EvE that has massive pvp everyone can play a special role, tacklers, snipers, etc. and they all count on each other in GW2 no one person matters you can literally be replaced by anyone and see no real difference. I wish they would make elementalist/rangers really long range, mesmers/necros medium range, guardian/warrior/thief close range and have each of them excel in those areas. I mean imagine if your characters placement in a battle mattered because right now it doesnt.