Vettel and Webber have secured a perfect result for Red Bull by finishing 1-2 in Japan. The Bulls started from the front row of the grid and were never under threat to secure this finish. Fernando Alonso finished third and keeps his championship hopes up.

Reanualt refused to park Alonso even in light of obvious signs that the wheel was about to fall off. I remember, Alonso's wheel was wobbling as soon as he left his pitbox and he drove it for a good long while trying to make it back on the next lap. It's not like this year when the wheels suddenly loosened for whatever reason.

WhiteBlue wrote:Back to the Suzuka GP and why Chaparral's remark is not relevant. You get no points for setting fastest lap but you get WDC points for crossing the line first and you get initial track position for qualifying faster. So qualifying times and finishing positions matter. Fastest race laps are simply an issue of who is prepared to run his equipment a bit harder for a statistic figure that interest very few people.

Webber simply qualifies worse than Vettel does. It is reason enough to call him the slower Red Bull driver. Why do bookies give you 3.1 for Vettel and 4.5 for Webber to win the next race? Because they think that Vettel will qualify better and win the race. In a nutshell because they think he will be faster than Webber.

I see no point in getting personal and calling someone a jerk who simply has a different opinion. I trust Steven and his moderators to follow a good policy on that.

How many times have those pole positions ended with the winners trophy? You dont win the points on saturday either. Fact is Webber still leads the WDC...because he has been the faster driver on race day...that isnt opinion, current facts dictate that...i dont want to read lucky this unlucky that...you make your own luck!

Vettel may be able to get the car around half a tenth quicker on saturdays...but seriously what is half a tenth in real world terms, 1/4m later on the brakes? If Button or Massa were that close to their team mates people would be singing their praises, BOTH redbull drivers are very fast and on the limit of the car.

When Vettel wins a race from behind ill be the first to give him kudos.

I've stated this previously, Vettel has a strong desire to set the fastest lap at every gp, even at Montreal whilst nursing a g/box issue, Webber simply banged a quicker lap in to hurt Vettels ego.

n smikle wrote:Reanualt refused to park Alonso even in light of obvious signs that the wheel was about to fall off. I remember, Alonso's wheel was wobbling as soon as he left his pitbox and he drove it for a good long while trying to make it back on the next lap. It's not like this year when the wheels suddenly loosened for whatever reason.

It was the wheel disc that was not locked in, and looked as if the wheel was coming off. This loose wheel disc, made the wheelnut loosen off, and then the wheel fell off. But I often wondered why the nut was reverse threaded, so the wheel disc could not have loosened the nut.

WhiteBlue wrote:Why do bookies give you 3.1 for Vettel and 4.5 for Webber to win the next race? Because they think that Vettel will qualify better and win the race. In a nutshell because they think he will be faster than Webber.

That's wrong. Bookies will try to put the odds that will make them earn more money. That's it. If for example I got all London to bet a tenner on Webber, you'd see his odds "decreasing" dramatically (I mean going closer to 1:1). The reason being the bookies can't afford to let Webber win if everybody is betting for him. Actually, if you have the money and influence, you can buy and sell bets for different odds and earn money in a stock exchange-like fashion.

Imagine you know Vettel's gearbox or engine is about to explode (insider info or whatever), so you bet for Webber. Now, you release the information about Vettel's reliability issues. Suddenly, Webber is more desirable, and thus the bookies will offer you less money for him. It's possible, given enough change in the odds, to sell your bet to someone for more money than you actually paid.

I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

WhiteBlue wrote:Why do bookies give you 3.1 for Vettel and 4.5 for Webber to win the next race? Because they think that Vettel will qualify better and win the race. In a nutshell because they think he will be faster than Webber.

That's wrong. Bookies will try to put the odds that will make them earn more money. That's it. If for example I got all London to bet a tenner on Webber, you'd see his odds "decreasing" dramatically (I mean going closer to 1:1). The reason being the bookies can't afford to let Webber win if everybody is betting for him. Actually, if you have the money and influence, you can buy and sell bets for different odds and earn money in a stock exchange-like fashion.

Imagine you know Vettel's gearbox or engine is about to explode (insider info or whatever), so you bet for Webber. Now, you release the information about Vettel's reliability issues. Suddenly, Webber is more desirable, and thus the bookies will offer you less money for him. It's possible, given enough change in the odds, to sell your bet to someone for more money than you actually paid.

Thats one theory. The other one is that betting is a free market where the betting money is pretty smart and bookies adjust the odds to just cash in on the margins. This means they they simply increase all the odds percentage wise the same so that they are 110-120% in total and their cut is all that is above 100%.

I have followed the betting market very closely this year and I have observed that the betting money takes qualifying times very serious. When there were still a lot of points up for grab Vettel's WDC odds were consistently better than Webber's due to his better qualifying times. Only lately when the total of points up for grabs is narrowing rapidly Webber's points advantage is also paying in better odds.

Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Gugs wrote - Back to the Suzuka GP and why Chaparral's remark is not relevant.

Hey ace you wrote it - Webber was quickest on the day - sorry thats the way it is not what you would hope for

Chaparral wrote:WhiteBlue wrote -

I don't think this was the issue here. N smikle thinks that Webber is as fast as Vettel lately. Frankly put, that is a ridiculous proposition that bears no resemblance with the facts. Look up the session times and and you will see the error in that thinking. Webber is so bloody slow that on even points no one would give him a decent chance for WDC now.

Fastest Lap. M.Webber, 1:33.474 ... ...

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

The number speak for themselves. When FACTS are presented opinions go out the window.

Vettel was generally faster in terms of qualifying and he clearly won the race but it is undeniable that Webber set the fastest lap. There was not much to choose between either driver all weekend. These are the facts.

if that had been the last race and webber needed to finish ahead of vettel to be champion would he have ambled along safely behind him all race ?
on the last lap he was just making it clear that he had plenty in hand , he didn't even look to be trying hard , as he said afterwards , couldn't let seb do the triple

just think back to button last year , just notched up enough points to win ; webber is smart enough to do the same and will do what it takes at the end ...of course if vettel would be the winner webber could have a 'mechanical' problem in the last race

to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

Trust me.. Webber is a very desperate nervous man when it comes to close fights. If Vettel so as much as get in front of him in any of these last races, he's gonna be livid! I won't be surprised if he takes out Vettel.

I have posted some facts in the thread about who should become champion.

Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

lebesset wrote:take vettel out if it wins him the championship ? about as likely as the other way round ...approx 100 %

it was ever thus

Get real! As nobody is safe in the race for the WDC, nobody is going to be stupid enough to try and take another driver out. Because it is never known if his own car would be the one to be eliminated or penalised. Why not drop all the conjecture, and instead, look forward to a good race.