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So, about that Karma leak...

the whole thing? I mean I could never put my words into how that person did. Literally took everything I want to say about karma and wrote it for me lol. They talk about how her mantle does not help her readability and how its on the same par with her fans. You still have to research to learn about either of them.

Oh you are referring to that post, as promised, will read that tomorrow, I'll make sure to add you later so I can make sure you'll read my response over here

(On a last note--I haven't read that entire post, so this might be misinformed, but I'll have to disagree with the claim "that mantle doesn't help push a sense of spirituality"! Especially when mantles like that are popular in a lot of Eastern mythology--kind of why that stuff is so prevalent in Ionian designs, which are referencing Eastern culture--and ESPECIALLY especially when that floating symbol in the middle is a huge, green, floating taijitu. Yin and Yang is pretty much acknowledged as a huge spiritual thing indicative of Eastern origins, pretty much in every modern culture!

So I'd have to say, that a floating mantle and a huge, green, floating taijitu, does in fact push the whole "spirituality" thing more than fans do--if anything, fans tend to be more of an indicator of elegance and ladyhood, and are often associated with the upperclass in both the Eastern and (older) Western cultures. Fanning yourself with something like that is an awfully lofty thing to do!)

And this is yet the question you'd ask yourself: What's more characteristic to a spirtualist, fans that could also be associated with elegance and ladyhood or a huge green floating taijitu that directly is associated with spirituality right off the bat?

I'm aware of the fact it's pretty much a rethorical question, but I hope people get the point in the fans vs taijitu discussion.

The only thing you've proven is that you're angry, and that you want old Karma back, and that you're going to be angry forever until you get old Karma back.

Not really. For someone who thinks he's the main expert in the world of game character design you sure ignored lots of points we tried to make about Karma's previous design, our acknowledging of her flaws, and our suggestions to make a character that is still recognizable as Karma but also sensible to Riot's new design philosophy and everything that comes with that.

But no. All your replies in the form of walls of text can basically be translated to: "No! What Riot did is amazing and totally understable! PS: if you want to see a design that's even better click here"

Really, I tried to discuss with you and tell you what I liked about old Karma or disliked about new Karma but it always boiled down to you, your immense experience in character design, and your own thread and redesign. "If you still have feedback come on my thread!" No. It's not beneficial in any way to me, as someone who's trying to achieve something HERE, to come in your thread and give you my feedback on designs that are probably never going to be concretized.

But really, I appreciate that after realizing that that wouldn't work, you decided to try discredit every single one of my posts by making it sound like I only want "the old Karma back". I assure you if that were the truth I would've avoided asking for a rework and fighting for it when I started playing her months and months ago.

I want to echo this. I have a single major critiscm with how Riot approached this. You guys really should have shown off some design documents to get some feedback and gauge what the reaction would be. It's silly to do more extensive PBE testing of gameplay stuff so you can iterate and make a better gameplay design...but not do it with Visual stuff when it's hard visual stuff.

Riot Had no choice in the matter, Some guy over in a SEA region leaked the karma reworked model and that tied their hands, I'm sure they would have loved to do somehting like this but some one screwed up and leaked it early

Anyone else finding the amount of redundancy in the arguments of those against this change kinda funny? I mean riot people have reiterated on the fan thing like 6 times. The traditional skin 3 times. And to be fair they only mention the animation of a full dress once but it was still mentioned.

For the record, you answered your own point here. The reason that many of us find ourselves repeating the same arguments is because Riot hasn't actually answered them, except to generally imply that everything is fine. Mentioning an objection is not equivalent to answering it. As you said...

Quote:

Naxord:

Debate is not whining the loudest but making the strongest argument. If you come up with a very valid and sound reason as to why the fans are necessary or the full dress or whatever your issue is then Riot will hear you out.

Great, but we don't just want to be heard out, then ignored. We'd like some actual response. The closest we've gotten so far is Morello expressing confusion about our frustration, then making fun of Karma fans, and RiotAmes dismissing our concerns about the complete destruction of classical Karma's aesthetic by saying that the objective wasn't to retain that aesthetic. To which we reply: AND THAT'S BAD! WHY?

Harry where do you get this energy? You have honestly managed to be dreadful for the 250+ pages of this thread. Stahp pls.

Maybe from the same place you get it. I was re-reading the first few pages of this thread earlier and I happened to stumble upon your first post in this thread, which happens to be somewhere like 110+ pages before my first post.

Quote:

Sessamo:

I feel blinded.
Like I have looked upon the face of god.
And god carried fans.

Btw, I don't think god carries fans anymore
Guess it took you a while to notice, but I'm glad you're ok with that.

1. You say Karma Traditional is better, I tell you it isn't because it doesn't reflect her new theme as much as the new default does - you haven't come back at this point at all, you are just stating your opinion without backing up your claims.

2. You continue to say you want to keep her dress, personality, fans and all of that and I've provided countless of information and examples of why that screws over the readability over her character and theme - you have failed to come back at this point aswell.

3. You've said you didn't take her previous theme as 'magical fans' yet I came back at you with points and an explanation why the fact that we were argueing over a theme already shows us how abstract, weird and not reeadable it is

Quote:

we tried to make about Karma's previous design, our acknowledging of her flaws.and our suggestions to make a character that is still recognizable as Karma but also sensible to Riot's new design philosophy and everything that comes with that.

And according to one of your first responses to me 'you are just saying what Riot is saying' means that more or less you are choosing to not listen.

You are hoping to see old Karma but you are not willing to accept that old Karma doesn't meet Riot's new standards and you have failed to provide us an example of a rework that keeps old karma as much as she can be old karma and still sell as good or even better as a design than her current rework.

Quote:

But no. All your replies in the form of walls of text can basically be translated to: "No! What Riot did is amazing and totally understable! PS: if you want to see a design that's even better click here"

What happend here is that we've actually said things and backed up our points with evidence and in my opinion reasonable examples yet you and Yago have just continued to spew out opinions and not backing up your claims:

'Your design sucks' - Why? Please follow all of the patterns Riot takes to come to the conclusion of something being a good design.

'We want Karma to be as much old Karma as she can be!' without even providing an explanation or suggestion or example of an entire rework that continues to fit the criteria of Riot.

EDIT: I could go on and on with points you have made that I have responded to where you don't really get back at with claims that you actually back up with evidence and solid Riot's standards.

Quote:

Really, I tried to discuss with you and tell you what I liked about old Karma or disliked about new Karma but it always boiled down to you, your immense experience in character design, and your own thread and redesign.

He has tanked your opinions and explained why Riot probably has made some decisions they have made and has continued to redirect him to his redesign that continues to fit their own criteria of what Riot personally thinks what makes a good design.

Quote:

as someone who's trying to achieve something HERE

You are trying to achieve something that'll lower the quality of the end product of the design which is why we and Riot will continue to tell you you're wrong and that the direction they are taking with Karma is for the best.

Quote:

to come in your thread and give you my feedback on designs that are probably never going to be concretized.

A man can dream - I guess you are just less ambitious. We run a thread that covers the vast majority of the champions within League, the difference here is that you are trying to opt for changes that doesn't meet with Riot's criteria, we are trying opt for changes that meets Riot's standards/criteria even better and it's up to them how they are going to respond to that.