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Zoro's island and Luffy's island were shown to be very close when Oda gave a sketch of East Blue, and Dragon is assumed to at least control the wind.

Plus the fire was like what, a week ago? Based on the crews reaction, the wounds were very severe, and if it was a week ago the person would've been dead by now. Dragon could have easily stayed behind to get a look at the Celestial Dragons, came upon Sabo, and then left to get him treatment.

Dragon was shown on the ship when they left and the fire was done the day before, Since Ace and Dadan returned the same day that Sabo got sunk.

Bluejam is hardly weak. Aside from surviving Ace's haki, His reputation was repeatedly mentioned, So it's quite possibly that Dragon had heard of him. It's nothing like it was with Higuma. Plus I don't see what potential Sabo could apparently have that Bluejam couldn't.

A soul that cannot be saved drifts and disappears,
In the instant it vanishes, it shines faintly,
Now, it creates a night with a full moon.

Dragon was shown on the ship when they left and the fire was done the day before, Since Ace and Dadan returned the same day that Sabo got sunk.

Bluejam is hardly weak. Aside from surviving Ace's haki, His reputation was repeatedly mentioned, So it's quite possibly that Dragon had heard of him. It's nothing like it was with Higuma. Plus I don't see what potential Sabo could apparently have that Bluejam couldn't.

But that would require that Dragon go into the fire, and search for someone who for what we know now has never heard of, who Dragon would have to carry out of the fire.

If he stayed behind for any reason it would be to see the Celestial Dragons, and came upon Sabo critically injured. Bluejam even said he wanted to be a noble, which would go against what Dragon is about.

Why would Dragon have to go in the fire? Why couldn't he have gone in after the fire had went out? Dadan was able to survive that long with her wounds, So Bluejam could have too. Dragon could have went to see if there were any survivors left and fount him. We already saw that Dragon was willing to save the people from there. Bluejam wanting to be a noble wasn't publicly known, So it wouldn't have had no baring on him being saved. If Dragon had hung around and saved Sabo, Wouldn't Dogura have seen him since he was on the scene?

Olvia and Clover died without smiling and like Sabo they died before they could complete their dream, Unlike the other named characters who die after doing something worthwhile. There was no reason for Sabo to smile in that situation.

A soul that cannot be saved drifts and disappears,
In the instant it vanishes, it shines faintly,
Now, it creates a night with a full moon.

Why would Dragon have to go in the fire? Why couldn't he have gone in after the fire had went out? Dadan was able to survive that long with her wounds, So Bluejam could have too. Dragon could have went to see if there were any survivors left and fount him. We already saw that Dragon was willing to save the people from there. Bluejam wanting to be a noble wasn't publicly known, So it wouldn't have had no baring on him being saved. If Dragon had hung around and saved Sabo, Wouldn't Dogura have seen him since he was on the scene?

Olvia and Clover died without smiling and like Sabo they died before they could complete their dream, Unlike the other named characters who die after doing something worthwhile. There was no reason for Sabo to smile in that situation.

No one saw Sabo's body. Plus Bluejam was going to burn the ships as well. And from the looks of it Dogura left immediately, and if Sabo's body was never found no one knows what happened.

Plus the raw shows that the injuries are downright terrible, and burn injuries are a lot different from explosions.

And Olvia smiled knowing she could see her daughter, but their dream was to preserve the world history and find out the true history, which they did, but they left it to Robin, much like Zeff left his dream to Sanji.

It was never stated whether Sabo's body was found or not. That was left to the unknown. And Dogura didn't return until quite a while later. A person's more likely to have terrible injuries from being burnt then being in an explosion, Though that's more because an explosions usually straight up kill them. Anyway, The point being that the injuries from being burnt can also be considered terrible.

Olvia smiled when she hugged Robin, But she didn't die then. She died later, Where she wasn't shown smiling. So there are examples of named characters dying without smiling.

A soul that cannot be saved drifts and disappears,
In the instant it vanishes, it shines faintly,
Now, it creates a night with a full moon.

It was never stated whether Sabo's body was found or not. That was left to the unknown. And Dogura didn't return until quite a while later. A person's more likely to have terrible injuries from being burnt then being in an explosion, Though that's more because an explosions usually straight up kill them. Anyway, The point being that the injuries from being burnt can also be considered terrible.

Olvia smiled when she hugged Robin, But she didn't die then. She died later, Where she wasn't shown smiling. So there are examples of named characters dying without smiling.

But Dragon has no reason to get anyone from the fire. The "Dragon might see potential in Bluejam" is pretty much grasping at straws. He has no reason to, he was going to burn down Dragon's ship, and even though Dragon doesn't know he wants to be a noble, the viewpoints are still different.

Sabo is someone who Dragon knows is a noble, but rejects the noble's way of life, and wanted to live a completely different life.

And Olvia knew she was pretty much dead at that point anyway. She had to get the books out of a giant tree that was burning down. She couldn't waste time just sitting there smiling.

But Dragon has no reason to get anyone from the fire. The "Dragon might see potential in Bluejam" is pretty much grasping at straws. He has no reason to, he was going to burn down Dragon's ship, and even though Dragon doesn't know he wants to be a noble, the viewpoints are still different.

Sabo is someone who Dragon knows is a noble, but rejects the noble's way of life, and wanted to live a completely different life.

And Olvia knew she was pretty much dead at that point anyway. She had to get the books out of a giant tree that was burning down. She couldn't waste time just sitting there smiling.

Dragon's reason would be the same as why he saved those other people from burning to death. I never said or assumed that Dragon saw some kind of potential in Bluejam. Dragon wouldn't have needed to see anything like that to just save a person. And unless he knew Bluejam's actual viewpoints at the time, I don't see why he wouldn't rescue a wounded person. Considering Dragon left Sabo behind that night even knowing his feelings, It's a pretty big leap to assume that Dragon saw some kind of potential in Sabo that would make him want Sabo as a revolutionary.

Which again doesn't change the fact that she died without smiling so there's no reason to assume that Sabo would have had to smile at that time even though he had no actual reason to do so.

A soul that cannot be saved drifts and disappears,
In the instant it vanishes, it shines faintly,
Now, it creates a night with a full moon.

Dragon's reason would be the same as why he saved those other people from burning to death. I never said or assumed that Dragon saw some kind of potential in Bluejam. Dragon wouldn't have needed to see anything like that to just save a person. And unless he knew Bluejam's actual viewpoints at the time, I don't see why he wouldn't rescue a wounded person. Considering Dragon left Sabo behind that night even knowing his feelings, It's a pretty big leap to assume that Dragon saw some kind of potential in Sabo that would make him want Sabo as a revolutionary.

Which again doesn't change the fact that she died without smiling so there's no reason to assume that Sabo would have had to smile at that time even though he had no actual reason to do so.

Just because Dragon didn't invite him doesn't mean he didn't see potential. He's a noble who doesn't want to be a noble, and be free. It's like Shanks when he didn't let Luffy on the ship. He saw the potential, but didn't let him join for various reasons. With Dragon the circumstances just changed later on.

But there's still no reason for him to go into the fire area. And to bring back just one person out of how many injured makes no sense.

She smiled when she knew she was going to die though. There's a difference.

Because he was dying? The thing is Dragon willing took in a bunch of people of various ages onto his ship and asked them to join the revolutionaries. So why wouldn't he have taken Sabo when he learnt about him or supposedly saw his potential. It's not like with Shank who has a selective crew.

What makes you think there were any more injured there? From what we saw, All the people living there were already rescued. The only ones left were those in Bluejam's crew, Who got taken out by Ace. I doubt the odds of survival while unconscious in a fire is very high, So there likely wasn't anyone else to save. Supposing his wounds were like those of Dadan, There's no reason he couldn't have survived as long as she did before being rescue.

And when did Sabo figure out he was gonna die? At the moment of actual death, They weren't shown smiling.

A soul that cannot be saved drifts and disappears,
In the instant it vanishes, it shines faintly,
Now, it creates a night with a full moon.

Because he was dying? The thing is Dragon willing took in a bunch of people of various ages onto his ship and asked them to join the revolutionaries. So why wouldn't he have taken Sabo when he learnt about him or supposedly saw his potential. It's not like with Shank who has a selective crew.

What makes you think there were any more injured there? From what we saw, All the people living there were already rescued. The only ones left were those in Bluejam's crew, Who got taken out by Ace. I doubt the odds of survival while unconscious in a fire is very high, So there likely wasn't anyone else to save. Supposing his wounds were like those of Dadan, There's no reason he couldn't have survived as long as she did before being rescue.

And when did Sabo figure out he was gonna die? At the moment of actual death, They weren't shown smiling.

But we know about his potential. He pretty much tied with Ace in fights, and beat Luffy every time. Bluejam lost to Ace and Dadan, and while Ace has Ambition, at this point it isn't strong at all. Bluejam has no potential, no reason to be rescued, and would literally be a big fuck you to the readers.

But would Dragon pick one person out of a crew and leave the rest?

But the smiling this is a moot point, it's more of a pattern. And all the deaths the people have known they were going to die. They accomplished their dreams or passed them on. Sabo wanted to be free of the Noble lifestyle, and the Revolutionaries are a perfect fit for him.

Us the readers knowing about Sabo's potential doesn't mean Dragon witness the same potential. Anyway, That's faulty logic. First off, Who's to say if Bluejam has potential or not. There's no reason he couldn't be made to grow stronger. Losing to someone weaker doesn't mean that person isn't strong or can't get better. Look at Luffy and Crocodile. Luffy lost against Crocodile twice before he manage to win, and even that was basically a flute. His lose against Luffy didn't make Crocodile any less then a powerhouse. Secondly like I already pointed out, There's no evidence that Dragon would only rescue someone because they had "potential". He rescued all those people from the fire, Even though it's likely few if any actually would have had potential. Thirdly, Oda hasn't given any guarantee that Sabo is alive, So he can have Dragon rescue anyone he want. He could have had Dragon rescue a completely random person from a completely separate event. That's his right as author. It would only be a big fuck you if there was visual evidence that Sabo was the one rescued and then Oda recon it. But he didn't show Dragon rescuing Sabo. He didn't even show Dragon in the area. And he didn't show any visual on the person Dragon brought back. So as it stands, The identity of that person is completely blank. Just because some of his readers liked Sabo doesn't mean that Oda has to cave to their wants. Whether you think so or not, Sabo filled his role. Could Oda give him a role later on? Sure. But Oda doesn't have to give him one. He can just as easily leave him in the grave.

If that person was the only one alive. Like I said, His crew was knocked out in the middle of a big fire. The likelihood of them surviving is pretty low. Bluejam on the other hand had a better chance of surviving til the fire out, Since Ace and Dadan were able to do so.

There's nothing saying a person has to accomplish their dream. Kuina and Hiluluk both died before they were able to achieve their dreams, Which were later taken up by the person that cared about them. Sabo's dream of being free was taken up by Ace and Luffy. We didn't actually witness Tom getting killed, Only going off to his death, But it's clear that he's dead. So not seeing Sabo's body doesn't automatically mean he's not dead. You acknowledged that those people smiled because they knew they were about to die yet ignore the fact that Sabo had no idea that he was about to die, Thus having no reason to smile. You also realize there's a pattern of someone close to the Strawhat member dying in their respected flashback. Up til this point, Luffy and Sanji were the only two who didn't fit this pattern and now with Sabo, That only leaves Sanji. So as you can see, There's more reasons for Sabo to be dead as there is for him to be alive.

Edit: Holy crap, Look how much I wrote. Think this is one of my biggest posts yet.

Last edited by TsukiMirage; 29th June 2010 at 8:00 AM.

A soul that cannot be saved drifts and disappears,
In the instant it vanishes, it shines faintly,
Now, it creates a night with a full moon.

Us the readers knowing about Sabo's potential doesn't mean Dragon witness the same potential. Anyway, That's faulty logic. First off, Who's to say if Bluejam has potential or not. There's no reason he couldn't be made to grow stronger. Losing to someone weaker doesn't mean that person isn't strong or can't get better. Look at Luffy and Crocodile. Luffy lost against Crocodile twice before he manage to win, and even that was basically a flute. His lose against Luffy didn't make Crocodile any less then a powerhouse. Secondly like I already pointed out, There's no evidence that Dragon would only rescue someone because they had "potential". He rescued all those people from the fire, Even though it's likely few if any actually would have had potential. Thirdly, Oda hasn't given any guarantee that Sabo is alive, So he can have Dragon rescue anyone he want. He could have had Dragon rescue a completely random person from a completely separate event. That's his right as author. It would only be a big fuck you if there was visual evidence that Sabo was the one rescued and then Oda recon it. But he didn't show Dragon rescuing Sabo. He didn't even show Dragon in the area. And he didn't show any visual on the person Dragon brought back. So as it stands, The identity of that person is completely blank. Just because some of his readers liked Sabo doesn't mean that Oda has to cave to their wants. Whether you think so or not, Sabo filled his role. Could Oda give him a role later on? Sure. But Oda doesn't have to give him one. He can just as easily leave him in the grave.

Sabo being saved has been foreshadowed, it's the logical option. Oda doesn't screw around with us, he hints at big events in the future. Luffy's going to need someone to connect with the Revolutionaries, and since Dragon has never been a true father, Sabo fits that role perfectly. Sabo did not fill his role, as he didn't get true freedom.

If that person was the only one alive. Like I said, His crew was knocked out in the middle of a big fire. The likelihood of them surviving is pretty low. Bluejam on the other hand had a better chance of surviving til the fire out, Since Ace and Dadan were able to do so.

He had the same chance of dying as everyone else, as Ace and Dadan both beat him to escape. Plus with severe burns you would looks as dead as everyone else. Plus the whole no reason to get Bluejam argument.

There's nothing saying a person has to accomplish their dream. Kuina and Hiluluk both died before they were able to achieve their dreams, Which were later taken up by the person that cared about them. Sabo's dream of being free was taken up by Ace and Luffy. We didn't actually witness Tom getting killed, Only going off to his death, But it's clear that he's dead. So not seeing Sabo's body doesn't automatically mean he's not dead. You acknowledged that those people smiled because they knew they were about to die yet ignore the fact that Sabo had no idea that he was about to die, Thus having no reason to smile. You also realize there's a pattern of someone close to the Strawhat member dying in their respected flashback. Up til this point, Luffy and Sanji were the only two who didn't fit this pattern and now with Sabo, That only leaves Sanji. So as you can see, There's more reasons for Sabo to be dead as there is for him to be alive.

Kunia gave up on her dream, Zoro had to talk her into keeping it, but she died the next morning. Hiluluk was dying and had very little time left, so he tried his best to make things right while he was still alive, and passed it to Chopper and Kureha. And Tom would have been in Impel Down if he was alive. We didn't see him there, so he's dead. People still believed he was alive, and we would see him if there was an Impel Down arc. And Sabo being alive is heavily implied, extremely heavily implied. The japanese raw text pretty much confirms it, unless some other person was hit with an explosion.
And Sanji's old crew all died when Zeff saved him. And you blame me for using a pattern while you use one of your own with the same meaning?

Sabo being saved has been foreshadowed, it's the logical option. Oda doesn't screw around with us, he hints at big events in the future. Luffy's going to need someone to connect with the Revolutionaries, and since Dragon has never been a true father, Sabo fits that role perfectly. Sabo did not fill his role, as he didn't get true freedom.

And it couldn't be that said foreshadowing is merely a red herring for Oda to surprise us with? Yeah, Oda hints at big events, But this isn't an event, It's a person. The event itself, Meeting up with the revolutionaries, Doesn't automatically point to Sabo. It's just as possible that the connection with the revolutionaries will be the act that brings Dragon and Luffy closer. Just because Dragon hasn't been a true father doesn't mean that he won't change. Or perhaps Cody, After his recent experience and disillusion of the Marines, Will take up with them. Not to mention Robin's unknown involvement at the moment, Which makes three other ways that Luffy can connect to the revolutionaries in addition to Sabo. Anyway, Sabo's role was to explain why Ace and Luffy are so close to each other and impart his idea of freedom on them.

I would also point out that the idea that Sabo wasn't killed off because he never got to experience his "true freedom" goes against the idea that Sabo was saved and joined the revolutionaries. It really can't be both.

Originally Posted by Sogeking

He had the same chance of dying as everyone else, as Ace and Dadan both beat him to escape. Plus with severe burns you would looks as dead as everyone else. Plus the whole no reason to get Bluejam argument.

You're assuming that he was knocked unconscious when he lost and that might not have been the case. If he was still conscious, He could have tried to escape the flames and got burnt just like Dadan did. As long as he was making some sort of noise, Such as moaning or such, It would be clear he was still alive. And Dragon's reason for going to the burnt field could have simply been to see what the Nobles had done. Anyway, My original point wasn't that I thought Bluejam was alive, Just that Dragon rescuing someone wouldn't necessarily mean that it had to be Sabo. Another person could just as likely have been who he rescued.

Originally Posted by Sogeking

Kunia gave up on her dream, Zoro had to talk her into keeping it, but she died the next morning. Hiluluk was dying and had very little time left, so he tried his best to make things right while he was still alive, and passed it to Chopper and Kureha. And Tom would have been in Impel Down if he was alive. We didn't see him there, so he's dead. People still believed he was alive, and we would see him if there was an Impel Down arc. And Sabo being alive is heavily implied, extremely heavily implied. The japanese raw text pretty much confirms it, unless some other person was hit with an explosion.
And Sanji's old crew all died when Zeff saved him. And you blame me for using a pattern while you use one of your own with the same meaning?

I never blamed you for using patterns, I was just pointing out that there were other patterns that also worked. The point was that Kunia and Hiluluk both had dreams they didn't get to fulfill, Showing that just having a dream doesn't mean it will get fulfilled. Yeah, Tom's dead, But we haven't seen the body. So why should it be different with Sabo. As for the thing with Sanji, No named person close to him died. That happen with all the other Strawhats.

On another note, How was Sabo's being alive heavily implied by the raw? I read two translations that say nothing about the person being rescued being involved in an explosion. Translation one and two.

A soul that cannot be saved drifts and disappears,
In the instant it vanishes, it shines faintly,
Now, it creates a night with a full moon.

I put my bet on Sabo is still alive.
He hasn't done my much in the story, other than as a filler/sweet memory.
I'm sure Oda made him for a better purpose in the future. Not sure as one of the revolutionary army/not but could be anything important.

Thanks God, the flashbacks are over.

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Perhaps, But he could also follow the path of the other named characters that have appeared in flashbacks. Well I should say that if Sabo is alive, Then undoubtedly he'll have a major role.

Anyway, Now that we have establish what's going on with Luffy, I'm thinking we could be seeing what the other Strawhats are doing to get back together. Plus we should be getting a chapter showing the event's impact on those connected to the Strawhats.

Last edited by TsukiMirage; 30th June 2010 at 7:10 AM.

A soul that cannot be saved drifts and disappears,
In the instant it vanishes, it shines faintly,
Now, it creates a night with a full moon.

Well, I'm thinking the next 4-8 chapters are going to be about the rest of the Straw Hats getting to Saboady from wherever they ended up. By the time it all ends, Luffy gets a good cry out of it and Jinbei joins the crew because of his promise to Ace, probably becoming the Helmsman.

I use "uber" Pokemon in allotted tiers, I calculate stat values, I draw the line at cheating devices, I breed my way to perfection, and I care about natures. I breed my Pokemon out of the most ideal parental stock, and treat them like brainless drones made out of bits of data. I believe that thinking of them as anything more is pointless.

From what the spoilers show Luffy and Jimbei may head off to find the other Strawhats next chapter or so.

I think so too. I don't think there will be a time skip of a year or more like most expected. Luffy wants to meet them and I doubt Luffy will want to wait any while longer.

Originally Posted by Gentleman Skeleton

Well, I'm thinking the next 4-8 chapters are going to be about the rest of the Straw Hats getting to Saboady from wherever they ended up. By the time it all ends, Luffy gets a good cry out of it and Jinbei joins the crew because of his promise to Ace, probably becoming the Helmsman.

I doubt that Jimbei will join the group. Fishman island is no longer under the protection of Whitebeard so I think he might just want to go back and protect them.