Namdrol wrote:Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N

If you believe that the world and beings are deities, you stray into Mantra.What is the use of meditation practice without knowing how to cut through these strayings!"

Padmasambhava(my emphasis)

This is appropriate for someone who has stabilized thier practice of Dzogchen. However, one cannot stray into Mantra if one has no concrete knowledge of Dzogchen, correct? I think ChNN's point is that it is far better to stray into mantra if you have a tendency to demonize your vajra brothers and sisters.

N

Until rigpa is fully stable, one is constantly straying. Hence the profound methods of tantra such as yidam practice, ngondro etc. Specifically yidam practice provides one with an excellent support that not only acts as an enhancement and/or reminding factor, but being a facsimile of the awakened state also ensures that one does not create further negative karma. Of course, any practice embraced by the view is even more effective and the ideal, but indeed it is hard to stray if one has never had a taste, hence the accumulation of merit and wisdom. It really is a remarkable collection of methods and teachings.

Namdrol wrote:Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N

I keep hearing people repeating that Tantra is just imagination but I am afraid that this isn't what is written in the Guhyagharbha Tantra. Imagination is just the means that brings people to the natural state of inseparable purity and equality which is the view of Mahayoga. Pure perception is the spontaneously occurring post-meditation. For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

pensum wrote:Until rigpa is fully stable, one is constantly straying. Hence the profound methods of tantra such as yidam practice, ngondro etc. Specifically yidam practice provides one with an excellent support that not only acts as an enhancement and/or reminding factor, but being a facsimile of the awakened state also ensures that one does not create further negative karma. Of course, any practice embraced by the view is even more effective and the ideal, but indeed it is hard to stray if one has never had a taste, hence the accumulation of merit and wisdom. It really is a remarkable collection of methods and teachings.

This is actually the point I been trying to make through this and other threads here but most people think I am just making advertisement for Ngondro. Even if I say that it is normal to get direct introduction before doing Ngondro in the Nyingma they insist that I say that "everyone have to make Ngondro before doing Dzogchen". My English is probably just not good enough.

I did a full Ngondro in a Kagyu context first and in that center they didn't want that you even looked at the outside of a book about Mahamudra before finishing Ngondro. For the record I like to say that this approach is poison for people like me.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

conebeckham wrote:The true "Yidam" isn't some mentally constructed deity image in the imagination. Though it certainly starts out that way.

Exactly.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Namdrol wrote:Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N

I keep hearing people repeating that Tantra is just imagination but I am afraid that this isn't what is written in the Guhyagharbha Tantra. Imagination is just the means that brings people to the natural state of inseparable purity and equality which is the view of Mahayoga. Pure perception is the spontaneously occurring post-meditation. For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus

Magnus, read what I said again: Tantric generation stage ...We are not talking about a result here. Just the means.

heart wrote: For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus

If you have discovered knowledge (rig pa) of the basis, you don't need creation stage and completion stage. That's the whole point of Dzogchen. Creation and completion stage are means of discovering that knowledge, but not the only means. Hence, Dzogchen and direct introduction.

Namdrol wrote:Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N

I keep hearing people repeating that Tantra is just imagination but I am afraid that this isn't what is written in the Guhyagharbha Tantra. Imagination is just the means that brings people to the natural state of inseparable purity and equality which is the view of Mahayoga. Pure perception is the spontaneously occurring post-meditation. For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus

Magnus, read what I said again: Tantric generation stage ...We are not talking about a result here. Just the means.

N

Yes, but the theory of the development stage is not that "if you imagine that everything is a mandala it will become a mandala" rather it is "everything is a mandala use your imagination to discover your natural state".

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

heart wrote: For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus

If you have discovered knowledge (rig pa) of the basis, you don't need creation stage and completion stage. That's the whole point of Dzogchen. Creation and completion stage are means of discovering that knowledge, but not the only means. Hence, Dzogchen and direct introduction.

N

But discovering that knowledge doesn't mean that you are constantly in that knowledge, so for this reason also after recognizing the natural state creation and completion is very helpful.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

heart wrote:Yes, but the theory of the development stage is not that "if you imagine that everything is a mandala it will become a mandala" rather it is "everything is a mandala use your imagination to discover your natural state".

/magnus

Hi Magnus:

Actually, in gsar ma schools that is exactly what creation stage means -- if you imagine it is a mandala, it becomes a mandala. This is why it is called "path of transformation". We are transforming our impure vision into a pure vision. We do this to undermine our tendency to engage in afflictive attachments. If we see everything as pure, we will have less grasping. The creation stage is conceptual, not non-coneotual. The completion stage is used to cut attachment to conceptuality of the creation stage. Eventually, we are supposed to unify creation and completion so that we are in the state of the union of illusory body and luminosity aka mahāmudra.

This is partially why one finds criticisms of the two stages approach even in Mahāmudra upadeshas.

Guhyagarbha contains the view of Dzogchen, this is why the thirteenth chapter of Guhyagarbha emphasizes that the mandala has always been naturally formed [ye nas lhun grub] . So it is a very different approach. It is not really the approach of the two stages.

You are so conditioned by Anuyoga, you have a hard time relating to mahāyoga in and of itself.

heart wrote: For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus

If you have discovered knowledge (rig pa) of the basis, you don't need creation stage and completion stage. That's the whole point of Dzogchen. Creation and completion stage are means of discovering that knowledge, but not the only means. Hence, Dzogchen and direct introduction.

N

But discovering that knowledge doesn't mean that you are constantly in that knowledge, so for this reason also after recognizing the natural state creation and completion is very helpful.

heart wrote:Yes, but the theory of the development stage is not that "if you imagine that everything is a mandala it will become a mandala" rather it is "everything is a mandala use your imagination to discover your natural state".

/magnus

Hi Magnus:

Actually, in gsar ma schools that is exactly what creation stage means -- if you imagine it is a mandala, it becomes a mandala. This is why it is called "path of transformation". We are transforming our impure vision into a pure vision. We do this to undermine our tendency to engage in afflictive attachments. If we see everything as pure, we will have less grasping. The creation stage is conceptual, not non-coneotual. The completion stage is used to cut attachment to conceptuality of the creation stage. Eventually, we are supposed to unify creation and completion so that we are in the state of the union of illusory body and luminosity aka mahāmudra.

This is partially why one finds criticisms of the two stages approach even in Mahāmudra upadeshas.

Guhyagarbha contains the view of Dzogchen, this is why the thirteenth chapter of Guhyagarbha emphasizes that the mandala has always been naturally formed [ye nas lhun grub] . So it is a very different approach. It is not really the approach of the two stages.

You are so conditioned by Anuyoga, you have a hard time relating to mahāyoga in and of itself.

N

Well that could well be, I can just say how I been taught to practice. I am currently reading the Guhyagarbha Tantra and, at least to me, it seem to support the understanding my Guru given me about these matters. Guhyagarbha Tantra is classified as a Mahayoga Tantra. The fact that it contains the view of Dzogchen seems to support what I say.

I can't say I been taught much Anuyoga.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Namdrol wrote:If you have discovered knowledge (rig pa) of the basis, you don't need creation stage and completion stage. That's the whole point of Dzogchen. Creation and completion stage are means of discovering that knowledge, but not the only means. Hence, Dzogchen and direct introduction.

N

But discovering that knowledge doesn't mean that you are constantly in that knowledge, so for this reason also after recognizing the natural state creation and completion is very helpful.

/magnus

From a Dzogchen perspective, guru yoga is better.

From my perspective guru yoga contains the two stages. Probably the best way to practice the two stages.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

heart wrote:Yes, but the theory of the development stage is not that "if you imagine that everything is a mandala it will become a mandala" rather it is "everything is a mandala use your imagination to discover your natural state".

/magnus

Hi Magnus:

Actually, in gsar ma schools that is exactly what creation stage means -- if you imagine it is a mandala, it becomes a mandala. This is why it is called "path of transformation". We are transforming our impure vision into a pure vision. We do this to undermine our tendency to engage in afflictive attachments. If we see everything as pure, we will have less grasping. The creation stage is conceptual, not non-coneotual. The completion stage is used to cut attachment to conceptuality of the creation stage. Eventually, we are supposed to unify creation and completion so that we are in the state of the union of illusory body and luminosity aka mahāmudra.

This is partially why one finds criticisms of the two stages approach even in Mahāmudra upadeshas.

Guhyagarbha contains the view of Dzogchen, this is why the thirteenth chapter of Guhyagarbha emphasizes that the mandala has always been naturally formed [ye nas lhun grub] . So it is a very different approach. It is not really the approach of the two stages.

You are so conditioned by Anuyoga, you have a hard time relating to mahāyoga in and of itself.

N

Well that could well be, I can just say how I been taught to practice. I am currently reading the Guhyagarbha Tantra and, at least to me, it seem to support the understanding my Guru given me about these matters. Guhyagarbha Tantra is classified as a Mahayoga Tantra. The fact that it contains the view of Dzogchen seems to support what I say.

I can't say I been taught much Anuyoga.

/magnus

It supports what you say solely from a Nyingma POV. But Nyingma is not the end all and be all of Vajrayāna. Sarma schools have a different POV, especially Sakya and Gelug. So you need to qualify your statements.

As to Anuyoga, what you practice is mostly anuyoga. Most termas are anuyoga.

You need to be able to differentiate what you have been taught from the approach of other schools. Your reading is top down. Since your teachers are all Dzogchen practitioners, it is natural that Dzogchen colors everything they teach.

Namdrol wrote:Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N

I don't' think it is humanly possible to envision Michele Bachmann as a Buddhist deity.

How foolish you are, grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention! - Vasubandhu