(24-05-2012 07:16 AM)Vosur Wrote: It was about time that I went off to sleep. It was 4 a.m. here in Germany. Anyway, shall we continue?

I think that you are, once again, mistaken. You may choose to interpret what I posted that way, but it doesn't change anything at what I actually wrote. Read it once more and you will eventually notice that I was describing their views to you, not mine.

If I were to agree with them, I would've wrote something along the lines of "You're complaing because I and several other users don't like your Holocaust denial?". As you can see, I chose a formulation which indicates that I'm distancing myself from their views by calling the ones who share this opinion "certain users" (i.e. the users who gave your profile a bad rating for denying that the Holocaust happened and those insulting you in your threads).

Besides, I'd appreciate if you would stop claiming that I said things which I actually didn't (such as me calling you a liar/troll). You're free to have your own interpretation of my posts, but don't misuse it to bad-mouth me. Thanks in advance.

Well if that's what you were saying you didn't have to throw in the 'delusional' part, the 'delusional' part is your own aspect of my beliefs, you could have just said 'your beliefs' instead of saying 'delusional'.

And you're from germany? You know if I was your country right now, I would be jailed for my 'delusional' beliefs. And if I happened to persuade you, you to would be jailed. The victimized now victimizing oh sweet bitter irony. a'ight then surely your grandeur country has enlightened you to the story of the holocaust. Tell me what they've bestowed upon you. What tragedies they portrayed of the holocaust. And tell me... Vosur... did you ever question them? Oh I forgot you can't... because you'll get thrown in jail for that to in your country. Perhaps that is where your unrelenting hatred comes for me, because your country was supposedly 'responsible' for these 'crimes against humanity' and you have an overwhelming feeling of guilt... actually... I think they used that practice in religion to! And anyone who dared question their guilt, must be an enemy, or the embodiment of the devil himself. Least they be free from their guilt ridden conscious.

(24-05-2012 07:45 AM)Filox Wrote: Where did you see this "unrelenting hatred" from Vosur toward you? All I see are normal posts and normal replies. Strange how we all see things differently, isn't it? That perception is a bitch!

Well for one thing how he felt the need to comment on my behavior, and derail an entire thread because of it, and how he keeps coming back. I mean yeah I've had people rate me down for a tad bit of bad behavior, but they never expressed such anguish. I'm just so sorry I hurt someone's feelings!

(24-05-2012 07:34 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote: Well if that's what you were saying you didn't have to throw in the 'delusional' part, the 'delusional' part is your own aspect of my beliefs, you could have just said 'your beliefs' instead of saying 'delusional'.

Why don't you do a proper research for once? I'm getting tired of debunking your claims over and over again. I'm not the one calling your views delusional. As I've already mentioned before, other people did so in your threads. For example right here. To refresh your memory, you also replied to this specific post right here, meaning that you should know that people have been calling you delusional for your views.

(24-05-2012 07:34 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote: And you're from germany? You know if I was your country right now, I would be jailed for my 'delusional' beliefs. And if I happened to persuade you, you to would be jailed. The victimized now victimizing oh sweet bitter irony. a'ight then surely your grandeur country has enlightened you to the story of the holocaust. Tell me what they've bestowed upon you. What tragedies they portrayed of the holocaust. And tell me... Vosur... did you ever question them? Oh I forgot you can't... because you'll get thrown in jail for that to in your country. Perhaps that is where your unrelenting hatred comes for me, because your country was supposedly 'responsible' for these 'crimes against humanity' and you have an overwhelming feeling of guilt... actually... I think they used that practice in religion to! And anyone who dared question their guilt, must be an enemy, or the embodiment of the devil himself. Least they be free from their guilt ridden conscious.

Trying to start a personal attack, aren't ya'? It's quite obvious that your opinion about the situation of Holocaust denial in Germany is so solidified that I won't be able to convince you of the opposite. It's quite clear that you know it better than me, because after all, you're the one living in Germany.

I just feel like I should remind you of three things:
First of all, there is no way that you can stop someone from questioning something. There's a huge difference between holding speeches on Holocaust denial and criticizing it while talking to people in your enviroment. As for your question, I have indeed questioned the Holocaust before.

Second of all, why would anyone who was born after '45 feel guilt for something he didn't participate in? That sounds a little bit naive to me. Assuming that you were born in the U.S.A.: Do you feel guilty for the bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? (if you happen to come from a different country, I'll happily research a crime committed by it and repeat the question)

Third of all, what makes you think that I hate you? Hatred is a feeling so strong that I couldn't possibly feel it towards someone who merely has a different opinion than I do.

Not sure if I'm supposed to jump in here or not, but since my name was brought up I will.

Arctic, I posted a troll post in response to your thread for several reasons- that I've already explained in that thread (I also apologized in that thread for my troll post, I shouldn't have done that). The first being that it was re-hash of two old threads that you started before- with a small new twist just to get the topics going again (mission successful, good job!). You'd already been spoken to once about not spamming new threads on the same topics and I personally considered this the same thing. Just a way to talk about the same two subjects again. It worked.

Second, I remember your attitude from your other threads. They were sometimes condescending, or sarcastic. That in itself isn't terrible, I can be that way too. But you've stuck out to me because as much as you state that you're open to evidence, you sure have a whole host of reasons to discount evidence when presented to you. It's almost like you've been studying all of the prepared counter-arguments this so you could come argue with a bunch of people who haven' studied it as much as you and feel superior. I know, it's all about getting people to ask the right questions (the ArcticSage approved questions). Doesn't matter though, like I said before, I'm not swayed by your arguments either so you don't have to be swayed by your opposition. In any case, I've been tempted several times to negatively rep you- but I really don't like doing that except in the worst of cases, and despite not liking your attitude before, you still have plenty of posts that aren't sarcastic or condescending and that contribute to your thread.

Third, I felt that the argument you were making for why we should ask those questions was invalid and poor reasoning. You suggested that a person cannot be a critical thinker if they haven't questioned the subjects you want them to question. And that is so far from the truth.

I still don't see your thread as an innocuous question about other peoples' questions. I see it as a way to bring up the subject again and get people talking about it. You want people to ask you questions- you said so yourself. But I personally think you really just want people to agree with you. Now THAT is an assumption.

(24-05-2012 08:06 AM)kineo Wrote: Not sure if I'm supposed to jump in here or not, but since my name was brought up I will.

Arctic, I posted a troll post in response to your thread for several reasons- that I've already explained in that thread (I also apologized in that thread for my troll post, I shouldn't have done that). The first being that it was re-hash of two old threads that you started before- with a small new twist just to get the topics going again (mission successful, good job!). You'd already been spoken to once about not spamming new threads on the same topics and I personally considered this the same thing. Just a way to talk about the same two subjects again. It worked.

Second, I remember your attitude from your other threads. They were sometimes condescending, or sarcastic. That in itself isn't terrible, I can be that way too. But you've stuck out to me because as much as you state that you're open to evidence, you sure have a whole host of reasons to discount evidence when presented to you. It's almost like you've been studying all of the prepared counter-arguments this so you could come argue with a bunch of people who haven' studied it as much as you and feel superior. I know, it's all about getting people to ask the right questions (the ArcticSage approved questions). Doesn't matter though, like I said before, I'm not swayed by your arguments either so you don't have to be swayed by your opposition. In any case, I've been tempted several times to negatively rep you- but I really don't like doing that except in the worst of cases, and despite not liking your attitude before, you still have plenty of posts that aren't sarcastic or condescending and that contribute to your thread.

Third, I felt that the argument you were making for why we should ask those questions was invalid and poor reasoning. You suggested that a person cannot be a critical thinker if they haven't questioned the subjects you want them to question. And that is so far from the truth.

I still don't see your thread as an innocuous question about other peoples' questions. I see it as a way to bring up the subject again and get people talking about it. You want people to ask you questions- you said so yourself. But I personally think you really just want people to agree with you. Now THAT is an assumption.

Firstly I knew it was a troll post, that's why I responded the way I did. Secondly my attitude was towards you, not towards Vorus, yet he acts as though I had been talking to him. The nerve of some people. I do feel a sense of superiority when I have beyond a reasonable doubt found what I believe to be the truth, and I wouldn't act so damn smug if I thought for a moment that I was wrong. However, if someone proves me wrong, I'll taught two lessons, one of them would be humility. And about studying counter arguments for counter arguments. I don't think I've actually ever had to do that. Most of this 'counter evidence' is either straw man arguments or simply not very well thought out. And I've been tempted many times to neg rep a lot of people. But I don't believe in giving negative reputations.

And about my new thread, it was more of an experiment really, you see after my 'was it a lie' thread, I learned that I had gone on entirely about it the wrong way. So I made a new thread, but of course I can't make it about lies, because I already got one up about that. BUT I could make it about if people have questioned the information that was given to them. Or at least skeptical of it. Which would sound more comfortable around a thinker than jumping to the step of lies. And it has been more proficient as well, got someone to agree to question the holocaust within the first 10 pages. That's one more than out of the 36 pages of the other thread. I also got FSM scot to admit that the gas chamber at Dachau was a fake. Success indeed. Though that did not change his belief in the holocaust it sure arrowed it's way in my brain when I first learned of it.

But can you believe Vosur? I wasn't even talking to him and yet he feels the need to butt in and be the 'man'. You were't hurt because of my attitude towards your troll post were you kineo?

While we're at this, do you remember if I ever asked you nicely to stop trolling if one of my many other threads before? Or maybe we had a nice chat or something. Come to think of it, it might not have even been you, might of been Filox... there's just so many trolls here I get confused.

(24-05-2012 09:02 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote: Firstly I knew it was a troll post, that's why I responded the way I did. Secondly my attitude was towards you, not towards Vorus, yet he acts as though I had been talking to him. The nerve of some people. I do feel a sense of superiority when I have beyond a reasonable doubt found what I believe to be the truth, and I wouldn't act so damn smug if I thought for a moment that I was wrong. However, if someone proves me wrong, I'll taught two lessons, one of them would be humility. And about studying counter arguments for counter arguments. I don't think I've actually ever had to do that. Most of this 'counter evidence' is either straw man arguments or simply not very well thought out. And I've been tempted many times to neg rep a lot of people. But I don't believe in giving negative reputations.

And about my new thread, it was more of an experiment really, you see after my 'was it a lie' thread, I learned that I had gone on entirely about it the wrong way. So I made a new thread, but of course I can't make it about lies, because I already got one up about that. BUT I could make it about if people have questioned the information that was given to them. Or at least skeptical of it. Which would sound more comfortable around a thinker than jumping to the step of lies. And it has been more proficient as well, got someone to agree to question the holocaust within the first 10 pages. That's one more than out of the 36 pages of the other thread. I also got FSM scot to admit that the gas chamber at Dachau was a fake. Success indeed. Though that did not change his belief in the holocaust it sure arrowed it's way in my brain when I first learned of it.

Maybe it's your arrogance about the subject that gets me the most. It instigates in me a response that I might not otherwise give. Smugness pisses me off so much that I cannot have a legitimate conversation with you. This is as close as it gets. I would otherwise be able to handle a talk on the topics- if I weren't already tired of them.

(24-05-2012 09:02 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote: But can you believe Vosur? I wasn't even talking to him and yet he feels the need to butt in and be the 'man'. You were't hurt because of my attitude towards your troll post were you kineo?

While we're at this, do you remember if I ever asked you nicely to stop trolling if one of my many other threads before? Or maybe we had a nice chat or something. Come to think of it, it might not have even been you, might of been Filox... there's just so many trolls here I get confused.

You're going to have to point me in the direction of where it all started. I saw you call out Vosur in this fight club thread, and I wondered why.

As for your attitude toward me, I wasn't hurt because I don't really care how you feel about me. I've dismissed any care already, knowing that in your eyes I may as well be a YEC believer because I don't currently ask ArcticSage-approved questions. /shrug I wouldn't exactly have any ground to stand on to call you out for your response to my post. As worthless as it was, it reflected my sentiment on starting new threads on these subjects.

No, we've never duked it out about your attitude before to my recollection. I wasn't extensively involved in your other threads. I was involved intermittently in your holocaust thread from post 101 to 234. Mostly jumped in here and there and pointed out a few things, usually more related to the flow of the discussion itself or your responses than the thread topic. I read a lot of the thread, and it wore thin on me quickly.

TAS, I am still waiting for you to reply to the last post I made. It looks like you deliberately chose not to reply to it, because it was submitted earlier than kineo's post. Either way, the following excerpt from the reply above delivered the final proof for my argument:

(24-05-2012 10:07 AM)kineo Wrote: No, we've never duked it out about your attitude before to my recollection. I wasn't extensively involved in your other threads. I was involved intermittently in your holocaust thread from post 101 to 234. Mostly jumped in here and there and pointed out a few things, usually more related to the flow of the discussion itself or your responses than the thread topic. I read a lot of the thread, and it wore thin on me quickly.