Yeah, I honestly don't get why people are so upset about the lunarian gals being so "strong". They didn't really play by spellcard rules, and it also revealed a lot of stuff about the moon. And even with all their brilliance, the Lunarians still get pranked by Yukari and Yuyuko. They're still perfectly fallible characters who have their flaws, though they sure act like they're perfect.

Then again, that whole superiority thing might be why people don't like them. Eh.

It's not like everyone in Gensokyo and their mothers don't act equally arrogant in their pre-fight banter. Actually, I've always found it kind of interesting that people seem to identify more with maneating youkai who spend every night partying than with a technologically and spiritually advanced society on the moon trying to fix all their problems...

Also interesting that Reimu basically tried to kill everyone on the moon by throwing kegare ("impurity") at it.

More like Reimu lost because she was the villain of the moon invasion incident and Yorihime won because she was just valiantly defending her people, duh.

Except in the end it was Yukari who won, and her plan was "mess with these guys for defeating me in the past, even though back then (according to certain sources at least) I lost deliberately because I was messing with other people". It's the silliest, pettiest plan, that has basically no reasoning besides her feeling like it, and it worked perfectly.

For those unfamiliar, in the past Yukari led the youkai in an invasion of the moon, and lost. According to whatever book described it, it was thought that, since she'd have known the youkai couldn't win, it was to teach them a lesson; basically, she started a war to send youkai the message "don't go to war, war sucks". Meanwhile, SSiB's plot is that the moon people are smug assholes, and Yukari wants to knock them down a peg and get revenge for losing the war. That she started, so that she could lose. Yukari is a dick.

So really it's all who's the biggest jerk; Yorihime won over the heroines because of her racism and perceived superiority, but Yukari won overall because she was loving with everyone (including the heroines, since they had no idea what her plan actually was and were tricked into it) for no reason whatsoever. This is also why Reimu usually beats everyone; she doesn't actually know what's going on, she just sees a problem and beats everyone up until it's solved.

Roland Jones fucked around with this message at Jun 9, 2013 around 16:20

Yeah, I honestly don't get why people are so upset about the lunarian gals being so "strong".

Because we had to sit through 6 or 7 chapters of fights with someone who stands still and defeats her opponents by naming random Shinto gods. This is after some poo poo pacing in the first 13 chapters, a bunch of uninteresting intrigue, and a ton of "No, it was I who was manipulating YOU". The ending being "interesting" doesn't justify the Mary Sue opponent being dull as dishwater.

There is a very big difference between reading something all at once and reading something as it comes out. Just look at Bleach; there's a reason the last manga thread had its title.

EDIT: Seriously, rule 1 of most serialized formats is that you have to make each individual episode interesting to keep the audience's attention. *random character challenges Yorihime* > *smack talk* > *Yorihime wins in like six panels* > *repeat* was the opposite of interesting.

BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at Jun 9, 2013 around 17:34

I actually genuinely like the Watatsuki sisters, but yeah, the pacing of SSiB was utter poo poo, and it hit glacial levels once it got to the actual fighting parts. The whole spellcard stuff only really hurt it, it just doesn't make as much sense outside of game design.

There's a reason every other ZUN manga afterwards has a more episodic format, and is a lot more comedic rather than working towards fight scenes. ZUN's been working to his strengths when in SSiB he had no clue what he was doing, I felt.

I like to think people would like the moon sisters more if SSiB had been written like the other stories are now. I'm another weird person who actually likes those two, and I'd agree that the fighting was the worst part of that thing.

I actually genuinely like the Watatsuki sisters, but yeah, the pacing of SSiB was utter poo poo, and it hit glacial levels once it got to the actual fighting parts. The whole spellcard stuff only really hurt it, it just doesn't make as much sense outside of game design.

There's a reason every other ZUN manga afterwards has a more episodic format, and is a lot more comedic rather than working towards fight scenes. ZUN's been working to his strengths when in SSiB he had no clue what he was doing, I felt.

Spellcard battles can still be awesome in comic book format. Someone mentioned kemonomichi earlier and there's a good example of a well done spellcard battle in Element 8 that stays pretty true to how they work in game.

But regardless of how awkward they are to implement in comics, simply having good action scenes would more than make up for it. When I read SSiB the first time, I knew very little about Touhou. So having no character attachments, I found the Yorihime fights very underwhelming. While the story, setup and all the unusual pieces coming together was "interesting," overall SSiB has a number of problems to it that I wouldn't call it "good." I still enjoyed it and re-read it a couple years later after knowing more about the characters. It's definitely not a comic I would expect everyone to enjoy.

So really it's all who's the biggest jerk; Yorihime won over the heroines because of her racism and perceived superiority,

Hey, you don't blame the player for spamming bombs. The whole thing is actually structured almost exactly like a shooting game, where Yorihime is the protagonist and she spams bombs all the time instead of trying to dodge (just like me!). Although admittedly this is kind of boring to read.

Also, the Lunarians have a lot of justification for their actions in Shinto beliefs. Impurity (kegare) is a rather important concept in Shinto, so I think they seem a bit more palatable from a religious perspective than they do from an ethnic. I mean, it's a simple fact that they're right about what causes death and all that. Although it's also true that discrimination against kegare has been a very real social issue in Japan.

Anyway, I think the Watatsukis are flawed but interesting characters who are at the very least more sympathetic than people like Tenshi.

Tenshi's fine, though? "I have no idea how good I've got it since I've lived well all my life" and "I want to do the cool things the people I watch always do" are a heck of a lot more relatable (especially in modern society) than whatever the Watatsukis are.

The only truly unsympathetic Touhous are probably the various fairies. And they're basically kids so who cares what crazy shenanigans they get others into.

Tenshi's fine, though? "I have no idea how good I've got it since I've lived well all my life" and "I want to do the cool things the people I watch always do" are a heck of a lot more relatable (especially in modern society) than whatever the Watatsukis are.

The only truly unsympathetic Touhous are probably the various fairies. And they're basically kids so who cares what crazy shenanigans they get others into.

Except her solution to this is to become a terrorist, blow up the Hakurei Shrine, and then plant a bomb underneath the rebuilt one that can't be removed or disarmed without triggering it. So... more like the Oklahoma bomber or a school shooter.

Tenshi is a terrible person.

Is it really worth exploring the motivations of blank character slates that can only be filled with fan interpretation that deeply?

Squiddycat fucked around with this message at Jun 10, 2013 around 07:52

Is it really worth exploring the motivations of blank character slates that can only be filled with fan interpretation?

Is it really worth completing ignoring the plot of the game she served as the villain of? Fans can do whatever they like with her, but canon Tenshi is simply a terrible person. Also, Touhou canon kind of exists...? That may come as a surprise to some people, but they actually do have plots and motivations and even dialog in the games.

Except her solution to this is to become a terrorist, blow up the Hakurei Shrine, and then plant a bomb underneath the rebuilt one that can't be removed or disarmed without triggering it. So... more like the Oklahoma bomber or a school shooter.

Man if you're going to get on Tenshi's case about her incident, you'd have to do that for every other final boss in every other game past HRtP. Mima could have done some undefined evil (she had to have been sealed for something), the PoDD girls essentially started a giant riot just for science (unlawful assembly!), Yuuka's endless flowers probably would have killed the land (environmental crime!), Shinki basically okayed a demonic invasion (war inciter!), Remilia and Yuyuko's crap would have seriously destabilized the environment (environmental terrorism!), Suika could have brought the oni back in full force (war inciter mkII), Eirin hiding the moon could have led to a youkai rebellion since it's essentially an attack on the night (war inciter, again), Eiki... didn't actually do anything, that was Komachi's bad (once again environmental crime), Kanako could have caused Gensokyo to get incinerated (huge scale arson, and genocide I guess), Byakuren could have led to a human uprising, and Miko could have triggered a religious war (more war inciting).

It's fine if you just don't like Tenshi, but don't pretend she's worse than any other Touhou. Especially since from her point of view, she was honestly helping.

EDIT: And if your counter is "her point of view was flawed", that's the point of her character.

BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at Jun 10, 2013 around 08:33

It's fine if you just don't like Tenshi, but don't pretend she's worse than any other Touhou. Especially since from her point of view, she was honestly helping.

I only said she was worse than the Watatsukis, didn't I? I'll agree that most of the earlier games featured equally destructive villains (I think Yuyuko stands out, but then again she was also characterized as killing people for giggles). The later games have generally toned it down though, unless you count the surprisingly "metal" backstories of the Taoists. They haven't really done anything in Gensokyo though.

I have no plans to hide the fact that I just don't like Tenshi though.

One of them threatened to flatten the Bamboo Forest if Yukari didn't go along with her demands.

Why on God's green loving Earth are you measuring the exact weight of their souls (with 0.1% margin of error) here, again?

She was doing it to protect her home from invaders. Maybe overkill, but she had some sort of reason. Tenshi... was trying to blow things up because she was bored. Not that that's a particularly uncommon motivation.

Also, Toyohime, um, didn't. It was a threat. Tenshi knocked down the shrine to get people's attention before they knew she existed.

She was doing it to protect her home from invaders. Maybe overkill, but she had some sort of reason. Tenshi... was trying to blow things up because she was bored. Not that that's a particularly uncommon motivation.

Whatever. Just please refrain things like compare her to real life mass-murdering lunatics/jerks in the future in the thread, okay? Most of us want to have a chill time here and I'm pretty sure a reasonable number of people will take issue with you making the above comparisons on account of it being a pretty flamebait-y statement.

4. Do not I SAY AGAIN DO NOT take the story, characters, music or anything from this game seriously. They where made by an alcoholic middle aged japanese man If I see any instance of “MY TOUHOUS!! ” Or I will take you to a spin on the lovely north Atlantic in the middle of a Nor'easter. Have you ever been forcefully ejected from your bed? Well I HAVE.

Let's change the subject before one of us sucks everything down a hole of anti-fun.

...

So.

Beerism.

InfiniteJesters fucked around with this message at Jun 10, 2013 around 09:49

Whatever. Just please refrain things like compare her to real life mass-murdering lunatics/jerks in the future in the thread, okay? Most of us want to have a chill time here and I'm pretty sure a reasonable number of people will take issue with you making the above comparisons on account of it being a pretty flamebait-y statement.

The OP has this to say on the subject of excessive gravitas:

...you know, I hadn't even thought of that. I suppose I'm the person who brought up Hitler, aren't I? Sorry.

Honestly I think of Tenshi as closer to that annoying rich girl who's always in teen high school movies. Not sure why I brought up real life tragedies. That was a horrible idea, in retrospect.

Related note: I wish Iku got even half of the love Tenshi seems to get. Iku's so ~=+stylish+=~.

Iku pretty much stars as 99% of the enemies of Takkoman, so there's that, I guess?

Really, her problem is the same as Sakuya's could be considered before she hit "playable character" status - she's the rather Stage 5 servant to a much more impactful final boss. Even if Iku doesn't serve Tenshi directly, 90% of her dialogue is about keeping people from trespassing into Heaven or asking Tenshi what's wrong.

She'd probably do well with a few more appearances under her belt, as opposed to being a one-shot character.

KataraniSword fucked around with this message at Jun 10, 2013 around 10:25

Just popping in to say I've found an English-subbed, Japanese-dubbed version of Fantasy Kaleidoscope 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap5910bTGLA, and now I have the worst case of blue Yin-Yang orbs waiting for Part 2.

Just popping in to say I've found an English-subbed, Japanese-dubbed version of Fantasy Kaleidoscope 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap5910bTGLA, and now I have the worst case of blue Yin-Yang orbs waiting for Part 2.

Oh cool, thanks. I haven't really payed attention to how the anime-style Touhou videos have been faring, honestly. There can't be enough of them, though.

The subtitles on that Touhou anime video are filled with basic mistakes, which is pretty embarrassing when considering that literally everything is written on screen. Is there a way to fix Youtube captions without just re-uploading the whole thing yourself?

Just popping in to say I've found an English-subbed, Japanese-dubbed version of Fantasy Kaleidoscope 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap5910bTGLA, and now I have the worst case of blue Yin-Yang orbs waiting for Part 2.

Same here buddy.

I really want to hunt down that sound track, that's definitely a new UN Owen, Apparition that Stalk the Night and Locked Girl I'm pretty sure I haven't heard before. Anyone got any links?

The subtitles on that Touhou anime video are filled with basic mistakes, which is pretty embarrassing when considering that literally everything is written on screen. Is there a way to fix Youtube captions without just re-uploading the whole thing yourself?