Tuesday, November 29, 2005

What Are We Becoming??

Some right-wingers are enthusiastic about Charles Krauthammer's article supporting torture. His first sentence complains that "During the last few weeks in Washington the pieties about torture have lain so thick in the air that it has been impossible to have a reasoned discussion."

Isn't that just a shame? All these namby-pamby moralists running around Washington, interfering with "reasoned discussion" about whether our nation should be a nation of torturers! All these limp-wristed lefties cluttering up the public square with silly concerns about America's god-given right to have Josef Mengele on the payroll!

No. God damn it, no. I won't have that reasoned discussion, and those who are promoting that reasoned discussion are debasing our country. Should our next reasoned discussion be about whether gang rape is an effective military tactic?

"Reasoned discussion" of American torture does not exist, and should not exist, and if you think it should exist, you realy need to stop and think about who you are becoming. And what you think America should become. Or what you think America is.

It's fun to see tough-talking bloggers come and make fools of themselves. Wow, you are really a kick-ass kind of guy, aren't you? Tell us more - on second thought, I'll just watch an episode of Walker, Texas Ranger . . .

If you'll go back and read, you'll see that I was not talking about what tactics I would use to defend this country, I was talking about what tactics should be used to define our country. Torture ain't it. I, and other anti-torture Americans, are defending our country from the likes of you - the likes who were willing to use the final solution to rid Germany of the Jewish vermin by any means necessary.

But, Robbie, if you're so tough and gung-ho, send my your address, and I'll send you the address of the nearest enlistment office.

Sorry to treat a first-time commenter with such complete contempt, but your chest-thumping idiocy disgusts me.

I've already pulled my tour, Danny. And if I were not now a diabled Veteran, I'd still be Soldier.

Nearest enlistment office? My brother commands a recruting station, full time active duty Army. I've got that covered in case we can find any loop hole to get me back in (yeah, I'd go back to Iraq today if I could).

Your book-learned theoretical principles don't mean squat in the real world that I've seen Danny.

What "defines" this country is freedom. And whatever better men than yourself need to do to ensure it.

"By any means necessary". The mantra of the current administration, from maintaining political control to the "War on Terror". And a more unAmerican, unpatriotic mind set is hard to imagine. We used to believe that certain things were self-evident and inalienable.

Dan, if you don't define what torture is, how in the world can you say you're against it? I'm serious about this. Without a reasoned discussion, it's impossible to define what we will not do.

I know it's fun to use hyperbole, but it doesn't solve any problems. The problem is, "cruel and inhumane treatment" is meaningless. If America is ever to become what you clearly want it to be, we first must define what we will never do. That takes discussion. Discussion about issues that are awful to confront but must be confronted nonetheless.

The discussion that Krauthammer wants to have is not a discussion about definitions. They want the freedom to engage in TORTURE of the most horrific kind you can name.

Sure, you and I can have a side conversation for hours about whether waterboarding qualifies as torture, or what organ failure really feels like, and those are fascinating discussions. But I'm not willing to discuss with you or anyone else about whether my tax dollars should go to support torture, however defined.

Dan, I don't want one dime of my tax dollars paying for abortions, but this is America. You sometimes pay for things you disagree with because the elected leaders disagree with you.

Outside of the Abu Ghraib scandal, I have yet to see proof, proof Dan, that anyone has been tortured by Americans. I've seen lots of supposition and innuendo. I've seen lots of accusations and anonymous claims.

Those seem to be enough for you, even though what torture is has never been defined. How can you oppose torture when you can't even say what torture is?

And this statement

"They want the freedom to engage in TORTURE of the most horrific kind you can name."

is completely false and you know it, if you've even bothered to read Krauthammer's article.

No one wants to torture people. Have you even read what the CIA rules are for so-called "torture"? Because if you have, you'll quickly realize we are not even discussing torture.

Antimedia, I did read the article, and Krauthammer argued that torture is okay in certain circumstances. I don't want to have that "reasonable argument", and I resent those of you who are eager to justify waterboarding.