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Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

Originally Posted by Gyakusetsu

Fed up with the manga? Ready to stop reading? If the answer is no then read no further. If you answered yes then read on and you may reconsider.

For awhile now we have been confronted with some impossibilities. The most recent is Kakashi using Kamui so many times. Couple this with the fact that several chapters ago his eye had begun to bleed. Now suddenly he has managed to wipe his eye free of blood but not the sweat. Now in 608 we have Kishimoto clearly pointing out through Kakashi "Hey shouldn't this eye be bleeding?". Let me emphasize it a little for you. We also have Madara stating "This is also a clone. Where's the real one, Obito?" As though the greatest Sharingan user can't see 150 meters away. Minato's head carving when he shouldn't have been Hokage yet. I'm not going to list them all but you get the idea.

My theory is that Kishimoto is doing these things deliberately to see if you, the reader, catch on to the fact that you are not viewing the same story, or timeline actually it changes even panel to panel. It is similar because it is looping but make no mistake they are different. Obito hints at this by saying that this world will end soon and that all it does is create more and more trash. So how is Kakashi able to use Kamui so much? He isn't using it consecutively, different loop. How does Madara think there are multiple clones then suddenly fight a real one. Different loop. How is Minato's head carved before he was Hokage? You get the picture. Hopefully, this reaffirms your faith in Kishimoto.

. Thoughts?

When it's Kakashi overusing Kamui, or Sasuke surviving impossible damage, or Tsunade auto healing everything, you cry and cry and complain and hate.

When it's Naruto not being full of burns and damage to his body after going 8 tails against Pain, and being able to defeat him with a normal rasengan, you think it's normal. When it's Naruto facing the power of both Hashirama and Madara put together and just laugh at it as a legendary wood dragon is magically fodderised, you don't say a word about it. I could mention to you so much plot about Naruto, but all you ever care about is when it happens to other characters than the main one.

Kishi's mistakes... and Kakashi is meant to be strong, he's meant to know a thousand jutsus and he doesn't even use his arsenal, we're lucky enough to see him spamming Kamui to compensate for that.

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

Originally Posted by Armathyx

When it's Kakashi overusing Kamui, or Sasuke surviving impossible damage, or Tsunade auto healing everything, you cry and cry and complain and hate.

When it's Naruto not being full of burns and damage to his body after going 8 tails against Pain, and being able to defeat him with a normal rasengan, you think it's normal. When it's Naruto facing the power of both Hashirama and Madara put together and just laugh at it as a legendary wood dragon is magically fodderised, you don't say a word about it. I could mention to you so much plot about Naruto, but all you ever care about is when it happens to other characters than the main one.

Kishi's mistakes... and Kakashi is meant to be strong, he's meant to know a thousand jutsus and he doesn't even use his arsenal, we're lucky enough to see him spamming Kamui to compensate for that.

What!?! I have no idea what your talking about. I've not once said anything about Tsunade or Sasuke and if you had bothered to read the thread you will see I'm not hating on any character. Frankly, the individual characters are irrelevant to the discussion. The discussion is if the "errors" are intentional or not and I am explaining that I don't believe they are and that rather than trying to reason them out individually I have a theory that may explain most of them.

Now, if your saying that each inconsistency can be explained individually or that they aren't inconsistencies then we can discuss, but if you think that then why did you bother since my original statement tells you to ignore the thread.

Anyone else feel that Kishimoto was screaming loudly on this last one in 609 with Kakashi's wounds and the healing flak vest? Those were healed up before he received the chakra, not that it would have repaired his flak vest anyway.

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

OT:

I don't know the details to your theory and I am not going to pretend I do, but I like where your thought process is, it is definitely one of the more original ideas floating around the base. I can't say I agree 100%, because I feel like it would require some massive explaining on Kishi's part (he can't go back to each individual "error" in a flashback and say, "see, see what I was doing here") which is why I struggle with this. However, if you're correct, I believe it will have to do with Izanami. When Kishi introduced Izanami, he had more in plan for it than just a means for Itachi to trump Kabuto, I have a strong feeling it will play a role later in the story. If you recall, Izanami takes an event from point A to point A' and memorizes the sensations in between causing the target to remain in a loop between these two memorized points. But remember, B and C (the points between A and A') were a bit different each time, resulting in a slighly different variation of the "loop". If I am understanding you correctly, this sounds a bit like what you are trying to get across. Some one or something, has put the entire world in Izanami and until the world can take the "right" path it will continue to loop. Write now, the story lies between A and A' (closer to A' I assume). But has already been through this loop several times, for when it came time to make a crucial choice, the world so-to-speak chose wrong and was forced back to point A. Kishi is showing the variations between the loops of Izanami. Will the world finally make the correct choice ( I assume this has to do with Naruto) or will they be forced back to point A. This is just something I came up with when trying to make sense of your thoughts. I cant say I believe this will happen, but I feel its an intelligent way to look at the story. One thing I know for certain, Izanami will make another appearnce in the story, and play a BIG role.

And for those saying, "Ohh this is wayyy to complex for Kishi's audience." Please, have you read the story so far? Sex jokes, complicated thought processes, and Izanami, dont tell me a 12 yr old should be able to understand all of this, they are not the target audience, it just happens to appeal to them.

Sorry for the block formatting, I just didnt feel like making it pretty this time.

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

Originally Posted by iBon3

OT:

I don't know the details to your theory and I am not going to pretend I do, but I like where your thought process is, it is definitely one of the more original ideas floating around the base. I can't say I agree 100%, because I feel like it would require some massive explaining on Kishi's part (he can't go back to each individual "error" in a flashback and say, "see, see what I was doing here") which is why I struggle with this. However, if you're correct, I believe it will have to do with Izanami. When Kishi introduced Izanami, he had more in plan for it than just a means for Itachi to trump Kabuto, I have a strong feeling it will play a role later in the story. If you recall, Izanami takes an event from point A to point A' and memorizes the sensations in between causing the target to remain in a loop between these two memorized points. But remember, B and C (the points between A and A') were a bit different each time, resulting in a slighly different variation of the "loop". If I am understanding you correctly, this sounds a bit like what you are trying to get across. Some one or something, has put the entire world in Izanami and until the world can take the "right" path it will continue to loop. Write now, the story lies between A and A' (closer to A' I assume). But has already been through this loop several times, for when it came time to make a crucial choice, the world so-to-speak chose wrong and was forced back to point A. Kishi is showing the variations between the loops of Izanami. Will the world finally make the correct choice ( I assume this has to do with Naruto) or will they be forced back to point A. This is just something I came up with when trying to make sense of your thoughts. I cant say I believe this will happen, but I feel its an intelligent way to look at the story. One thing I know for certain, Izanami will make another appearnce in the story, and play a BIG role.

And for those saying, "Ohh this is wayyy to complex for Kishi's audience." Please, have you read the story so far? Sex jokes, complicated thought processes, and Izanami, dont tell me a 12 yr old should be able to understand all of this, they are not the target audience, it just happens to appeal to them.

Sorry for the block formatting, I just didnt feel like making it pretty this time.

You've got it very close to the way I imagined it to be although I think it will be a Yin/Yang technique that puts reality into this looping process. This condition is what I believe is the Doom scenario that the Sage Toad detailed in his prophecy related to Naruto. Figuring out a way to break the loop that leads to all of these tragedies is Naruto's purpose.

Regarding Kishimoto going back to address each item separately, I don't think he would do that. Part of the appeal in doing it this way is that as you get to go back and read the story again and see how many times he has probably hinted at it throughout the series.

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

Originally Posted by Gyakusetsu

You've got it very close to the way I imagined it to be although I think it will be a Yin/Yang technique that puts reality into this looping process. This condition is what I believe is the Doom scenario that the Sage Toad detailed in his prophecy related to Naruto. Figuring out a way to break the loop that leads to all of these tragedies is Naruto's purpose.

Regarding Kishimoto going back to address each item separately, I don't think he would do that. Part of the appeal in doing it this way is that as you get to go back and read the story again and see how many times he has probably hinted at it throughout the series.

I'm not sure I've ever really understood the yin/yang concept as it relates to this universe. My understanding was one could imagine something and the other could bring that image to life. How do you suppose it will relate to your theory?

Also, do you think Izanami will play a role at all in this story, maybe not the way I described, but does it still have relevance to you?

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

You're correct, Yin chakra is like thought, imagination, creativity. Genjutsu utilizes Yin chakra and Izanami is genjutsu. Yang is like physical energy, vitality, life. Mokuton uses Yang chakra. Now ninjutsu uses both to mold chakra, but the So6P manipulated Yin and Yang chakra so well that he could give life to his thoughts and make the reality. So I don't believe that we are in a constant state of Izanami or it would be exactly as it was thought to be. Life keeps inserting itself into the equation.

I think Izanami principles will definetly play a part in figuring out what is occurring. Thanks Itachi.

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

Originally Posted by Hawker

lol I appreciate the fact that you try to think outside of the box but as I said this is a too complex twist for the average naruto manga viewers. There's also no hint whatsoever that Kishi is willing to do something this drastic. It would change the dynamics of this show. Not to mention this show would end up like the tv series Lost. Everyone thought it was an awesome show but the ending left most people puzzled of what just really happend and it also left a bad taste into everyone's mouths and that's all that matters in the end.

Kishi is a tradiotional and might I say an old school guy when it comes to storytelling. Something like a infite loops + alternative realities thingy is not just like him at all. I say overthinking and reaching, again.

So this, what you're suggesting, is just gay.

So let me get this straight you're saying that Naruto readers don't have the capacity to understand something so "complex"?I'd beg to differ.

Also I find it odd that there is too many "mistakes" and inconsistencies. seems rather fishy to me...

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

As much as I like theories, I can't say that I buy all of this. The number of windows on a building can't have much importance. If the story did pan out where the moons eye plan resulted in the scenario you presented, or someone interrupted the moons eye plan with izanagi/nami (can't remember which is which), using the number of windows in a building as an anchor to prove this was a well thought out conclusion is very weak.

As you might have guessed I'm a light reader of the manga, and other than the non-sharigan eye of Kakashi I haven't noticed many mistakes. Is there a complete (concise) list somewheres?

I'm sure a manga as popular as Naruto pays well enough for Kishimoto to have assistants. It's possible that these mistakes could have been caused be delegating work so that he has more time to plan out the details of complex storyline elements or get a head start on more complicated battle sequences early.

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

Originally Posted by darkphoenix16

As much as I like theories, I can't say that I buy all of this. The number of windows on a building can't have much importance. If the story did pan out where the moons eye plan resulted in the scenario you presented, or someone interrupted the moons eye plan with izanagi/nami (can't remember which is which), using the number of windows in a building as an anchor to prove this was a well thought out conclusion is very weak.

As you might have guessed I'm a light reader of the manga, and other than the non-sharigan eye of Kakashi I haven't noticed many mistakes. Is there a complete (concise) list somewheres?

I'm sure a manga as popular as Naruto pays well enough for Kishimoto to have assistants. It's possible that these mistakes could have been caused be delegating work so that he has more time to plan out the details of complex storyline elements or get a head start on more complicated battle sequences early.

Wow, if you think the number of windows is my anchor then I can tell you didn't bother to read. There is a list of manga mistakes in this forum. It is stickied at the top. The sudden dissapearance of Kakashi's bleeding eye and the dissapearance of his wounds and damaged flak vest are too coincidental.

Regarding the sudden loss of Sharingan that wasn't a mistake it was a bad scan. If you read the thread you will see I covered that already.

It's funny you should bring up how popular the manga is as a reason mistakes will occur. Actually the opposite would be more likely . Naruto has merchandise all over the place, theme park characters, movies, heck he's even featured in Disney Worlds Epcot Center (Side note Itachi fans they talk about him and his relationship to the Karasu Tengu and Yatagarasu). Those investor that will be providing Kishimoto a cut of the money will want certain guarantees. Things like solid quality control, or that Kishimoto doesn't turn the series into hentai. After all if you're a corporation about to turn out trading cards and distribute world wide, your going to want some assurances that your not going to loose your investment. I'm quite certain he has folks double checking his work and if he doesn't you can bet your a$$ those investors are.

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

Originally Posted by Gyakusetsu

Wow, if you think the number of windows is my anchor then I can tell you didn't bother to read. There is a list of manga mistakes in this forum. It is stickied at the top. The sudden dissapearance of Kakashi's bleeding eye and the dissapearance of his wounds and damaged flak vest are too coincidental.

Regarding the sudden loss of Sharingan that wasn't a mistake it was a bad scan. If you read the thread you will see I covered that already.

It's funny you should bring up how popular the manga is as a reason mistakes will occur. Actually the opposite would be more likely . Naruto has merchandise all over the place, theme park characters, movies, heck he's even featured in Disney Worlds Epcot Center (Side note Itachi fans they talk about him and his relationship to the Karasu Tengu and Yatagarasu). Those investor that will be providing Kishimoto a cut of the money will want certain guarantees. Things like solid quality control, or that Kishimoto doesn't turn the series into hentai. After all if you're a corporation about to turn out trading cards and distribute world wide, your going to want some assurances that your not going to loose your investment. I'm quite certain he has folks double checking his work and if he doesn't you can bet your a$$ those investors are.

You misunderstand me. I enjoyed the theory and read every reply and your original thread. I was highlighting the obsurdity of Kishimoto using the number of windows in a building as a 'hey look, see I did have this planned for a long time!' anchor, not implying that it was your only reference. IMO you should have left that part out since it seems like grasping at straws. That is all

Regarding your response, I didn't say that popular animal = mistakes. I said that popular anime = money to hire assistances = mistakes. Looking over work to make sure it doesn't become a hentai is much different than reviewing minute and often confusing details. These mistakes do not effect investment as much as you would like to think. I doubt most people notice many of these. I think I am proof since I enjoy reading the manga, reading peoples theories and reactions, but rarely reply or post (lurker). Im not saying it isn't possible that these mistakes are actually intended, but it is more of a scenario of them only being relevant if the plot does unfold to include a time-loop moreso than it being strong enough evidince to support the claim at this time.

BTW I was recently (2012) at Walt Disney World and epcot doesn't feature 'Naruto', it has a Japanese store in the Japanese district which includes Naruto and other popular (and not so popular) manga/anime as it is a defining characteristic of Japanese culture.

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

I do not really have a problem with such 'minor' things (even mistakes) like Kakashi simply not dropping dead (many here really constantly complain that him and Gai and Bee and the kages are still breathing) when the juubi is back.

No one really cares if the heroes are still standing, as weird as it might look like, when there is such a huge threat! What do people want? Everyone dead and the final battle just being Naruto alive against all the baddies who didn't get a scratch? Would be as undesired as the current situation: all heroes still standing, looking lost and hopeless, and all bad guys still standing too. Please stop this 'why is that good guy still alive?' Believe me, the other way wouldn't be what you want either. Kishi is doing the right thing since everyone is still reading and will keep reading.

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

Originally Posted by darkphoenix16

You misunderstand me. I enjoyed the theory and read every reply and your original thread. I was highlighting the obsurdity of Kishimoto using the number of windows in a building as a 'hey look, see I did have this planned for a long time!' anchor, not implying that it was your only reference. IMO you should have left that part out since it seems like grasping at straws. That is all

Regarding your response, I didn't say that popular animal = mistakes. I said that popular anime = money to hire assistances = mistakes. Looking over work to make sure it doesn't become a hentai is much different than reviewing minute and often confusing details. These mistakes do not effect investment as much as you would like to think. I doubt most people notice many of these. I think I am proof since I enjoy reading the manga, reading peoples theories and reactions, but rarely reply or post (lurker). Im not saying it isn't possible that these mistakes are actually intended, but it is more of a scenario of them only being relevant if the plot does unfold to include a time-loop moreso than it being strong enough evidince to support the claim at this time.

BTW I was recently (2012) at Walt Disney World and epcot doesn't feature 'Naruto', it has a Japanese store in the Japanese district which includes Naruto and other popular (and not so popular) manga/anime as it is a defining characteristic of Japanese culture.

I see, the point that I was trying (and obviously failed) to make is that the picture was identical in appearance and did not need to be redrawn. It stands to reason that if you have tight deadlines you look for opportunities to save time. Performing touch-ups to drawn items would be a luxury and would be especially true for performing these types of touchups, as they would go completely unnoticed by most. This leaves me with the following assumptions. First, that they have the time to be meticulous and are able to touchup items unnecessarily. Second, that if they are that meticulous have that amount of time, they wouldn't let an error like a bleeding eye or wounds dissapearing slip by. Third, whether the first or second assumptions are correct or not, the decision to change an item or to leave something out would have been intentional. If pressed for time, it must be necessary. If not pressed for time, then there would be opportunities to check thoroughly. Does that make better sense?

I got what you were saying. My point is that a declining readership would be an issue for the investor. I work for a major corporation and we do have folks checking various websites used for advertising to ensure that they haven't gone off the deep end and that they are still viable sites for advertising. If they spot errors, broken links, issues in verbiage, or whatever they go back to the website and ask that corrections occur and depending on the size of the site may offer to provide additional assistace to protect the investment. Bottom line, if we notice something then those investors are going to notice something as well. They have money involved whereas we get it for free for entertainment. They would have inroads to go back to Kishimoto's team to let them know about a series of mistakes.

On the Epcot center comment, Naruto, DBZ, and other anime are featured in this section. Disney animators love Japanese animation (though you wouldn't know it by the company business practices) and even included Miyazaki's Totoro character in Toy Story III. As you mention, they do point out the strong ties to Japanese mythology, but the display represents more than just a cultural study of Japanese mythology. A common love of animation is something that ties the two cultures together.
So, it isn't just in the gift shop, although Naruto posters are also prominently displayed there as well.

Re: Kishimoto I hear what you're drawing.

Originally Posted by Uchiha Heikou

I'd considered something kinda like this during the Itachi/Kabuto fight. I imagined the entire storyline as something like a gigantic Izanami loop.

Right, Kishi explained Izanami and how it works in such vivid detail. He even broke it down into a diagram to try to make us best understand it (because it was a little confusing). I don't think this was without purpose, Izanamis specs will play a part in the story, no way it beats Kabuto and then never shows up again.

Regarding Kishimoto going back to address each item separately, I don't think he would do that. Part of the appeal in doing it this way is that as you get to go back and read the story again and see how many times he has probably hinted at it throughout the series.

Right, and I agree with this. If he explains it properly, the attention all of these "mistakes" have garnered should speak for themselves and he doesn't necessarily have to go back to explain them. So yes, my point is mood.