Author
Topic: Where is the Love in Eastern Orthodoxy? (Read 23745 times)

This is a very important question. In Orthodoxy, what we have is right worship and right doctrine. However, many Orthodox Christians become so obsessed with being right that they become absolutely wrong in their outlook on life and the way they treat their fellow human beings.

Many Orthodox Christians are so sectarian that they fail to see the broader picture of life and therefore, are unable to truly love anyone outside of the Orthodox community. Some Orthodox Christians are so sectarian that they are unable to love anyone outside of their own particular church.

I believe this rigid sectarianism prevents us from seeing the true purpose of Christian life. What are we as Christians without love? 1 Corinthians 13 is one chapter of the Bible which many Orthodox Christians should read more often and take to the heart. Saint Paul concludes with, "So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

There are many Roman Catholic and Protestant charities in the United States that share their love to the world through positive action. In the Orthodox Churches, there is right worship and there is right doctrine but is there right action? I have not heard of any successful Orthodox charities but this may be do to an ignorance.

In Mark 2:27, Jesus states, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. That is why the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath." Likewise, the Church was made for man, not man for the Church. The liturgy was made for man, not man for the liturgy.

When we become so rigid about Orthodox tradition that we fail to appreciate, tolerate, and love Christians who are outside of the realm of Orthodoxy, then we have become no different from the Pharisees:

Matthew 23"23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes 12 of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. (But) these you should have done, without neglecting the others. 24 13 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!"

So many Orthodox Christians strain out the gnat and swallow the camel and therefore neglect the weightier matters of the faith: Love, peace, charity.

Some of the Orthodox Christians on this forum are so closedminded that they are not even able to appreciate Oriental Orthodox Christians for not being Chalcedonian. But in the final analysis, I don't think Jesus is going to care about what semantics we used in christology.

Seriously, What would Jesus do? Granted, traditional theology and traditional liturgy are highly important. But would Jesus care more about tradition than love for your fellow man? Would Jesus care more about sectarianism than having peace with the whole of Christianity? Would Jesus care more about rigid continuity than charity?

In some Orthodox Christians circles, their "Christianity" is not Christian at all for they have become so obsessed with being "right" that they've forgotten what right things really matter.

I hope that I am not the only one who feels this way. I am not trying to start a debate or controversy. Just look into your heart and ask yourself if you are living out your faith in the way that Jesus would want you to.

It is seen in the everyday life of Orthodox Christians as they perform works of mercy, give alms, do small kindnesses to those around them, and witness by their everyday life to their christian beliefs by their actions.. As an Eastern Orthodox Christian we are taught to look at every person as an Icon of Christ---the true image of Christ. Regretfully, as is often the case on the internet, as we discuss doctrine and theology these basic everyday principles of Orthodox Christianity are often lost with the passion of the moment and the anonimity of the internet forums.

This is a very important question. In Orthodoxy, what we have is right worship and right doctrine. However, many Orthodox Christians become so obsessed with being right that they become absolutely wrong in their outlook on life and the way they treat their fellow human beings.

Many Orthodox Christians are so sectarian that they fail to see the broader picture of life and therefore, are unable to truly love anyone outside of the Orthodox community. Some Orthodox Christians are so sectarian that they are unable to love anyone outside of their own particular church.

I believe this rigid sectarianism prevents us from seeing the true purpose of Christian life. What are we as Christians without love? 1 Corinthians 13 is one chapter of the Bible which many Orthodox Christians should read more often and take to the heart. Saint Paul concludes with, "So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

There are many Roman Catholic and Protestant charities in the United States that share their love to the world through positive action. In the Orthodox Churches, there is right worship and there is right doctrine but is there right action? I have not heard of any successful Orthodox charities but this may be do to an ignorance.

Matthew,

Yes, it is due to ignorance - the simple task of doing a net search on "Orthodox charities" would have made you aware of International Orthodox Christian Charities, which is presently mourning its visionary founder, His Eminence Archbishop Iakovos, of blessed memory, a man who put Orthodoxy into the forefront of social action when he marched alongside Dr. Martin Luther King at Selma, Alabama, 40 years ago. The IOCC has done work in Kosovo, in aid of the Tsunami victims, in HIV/AIDS relief in Romania, to name just a few of its initiatives.

There are countless other smaller Orthodox charitable outreaches, from the local Church level through the Archdiocesan levels, in both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches - look around before you start casting stones.

Many years,

Neil

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

Author, you are making some interesting observations. But at the same time I think that you are generalising to the extreme. I am first to go this way and to generalise and for it I feel sorry, because generalisation is never charitable. So as one generalisator to another I'd like to say that, I agree with statements regarding love but disagree with using the Church in a context of MANY MEMBERS.

Firstly, how many orthodox do you know? I mean, in the first person, as somebody with whom your ate, talked, argued, laughed or cryed... so on. I catch myself doing this all the time... and it a real pain for me. I dont think that anyone can use term 'many' as a critique, unless he/she has conducted a some sort of a research. I am not throwing rocks at you, I am just saying that I am first one to do this and for this reason I'd like to share with you my own thoughts on my own actions that, it seems, you are making/repeating here.

I fully agree with statements regarding love. However, love can not be used for general critique. No one can use love or lack of thereof as a generalising term (in a context of using it pro/contra one whole community or majority).

"Many Orthodox Christians are so sectarian that they fail to see the broader picture of life and therefore, are unable to truly love anyone outside of the Orthodox community. Some Orthodox Christians are so sectarian that they are unable to love anyone outside of their own particular church."I think this is a wrong statement. I just do not think of any orthodox as sectarian. Maybe, because I can see where that charachter trait that you consider sactarian comes from.

You are using many quotes from Holy Gospel and Apostle in order to prove the phariseeism of "many" orthodox. Again, generalisation is not a valid form of argument. It would be much better to talk to those memebers who are influencing you to have this kind of oppinion and pray.

But would Jesus care more about tradition than love for your fellow man?I think that it is a unrealistic argument to argue between Works of Christ and love of it and Tradition and love of it. Tradition IS THE preserved teaching on Works of Christ so arguing between these is non-argument.

Would Jesus care more about sectarianism than having peace with the whole of Christianity?I think that we have to more define 'sectariasm' at this stage and 'peace with the whole Christianity' before answering this question. In my mind not all 'sectariasm' (as you call it) is bad and not every 'peace' is good.

"Some of the Orthodox Christians on this forum are so closedminded that they are not even able to appreciate Oriental Orthodox Christians for not being Chalcedonian. But in the final analysis, I don't think Jesus is going to care about what semantics we used in christology." This is true, and? What would you have us do? Burn them alive?

It is obvious to me that you feel somewhat 'down' and that something is making you feel that way. At the same time this 'something' is making you see all of (or atleast majority) of the body of Lord in a certain, somewhat negative way.I agree that in my parish there are people who are not very charitable when it comes to some ethinc groups (croats, bosnian moslems) or people of 'different' sexuallity (gay) but it not my place to now call all of the Church as anti-croat. I just think that it is a very dangerous way to start thinking this way.

I think that Church is doing fine as a general term. Members who make it, ah well... we are all sick. Thats why we are here.

It was said concerning Abba Agathon that some monks came to find him, having heard tell of his great discernment. Wanting to see if he would lose his temper, they said to him, "Aren't you that Agathon who is said to be a fornicator and a proud man?" "Yes, it is very true," he answered. They resumed, "Aren't you that Agathon who lacks love for his fellow man?" "I am." Again they said, "Aren't you Agathon the heretic?" But at that, he replied, "I am not a heretic." So they asked him, "Tell us why you accepted everything we cast you, but repudiated this last insult." He replied, "The first accusations I take to myself, for that is good for my soul. But heresy is separation from God. Now I have no wish to be separated from God." At this saying they were astonished at his discernment and returned, edified.- The Desert Fathers

When I griped to my RC priest friend about the comments of Bishop Tikhon about JPII on the Indiana List, he reminded me that we shouldn't judge a religion by its weakest members because that only proves the existence of original sin.

Arguments like WWJD, doesn't theology in the end not really matter, isn't social service the most important thing, etc. remind me of the current ethos of liberal leaning western Christianity. They have lost confidence in revelation and in eternal truth, so they replace it with emotion, sentiment and "diversity". This of course puts man at the apex of their belief system and leads in the end to the justification of sin, because if it feels right, that becomes the baseline for what is acceptable. Nobody is left out, nobody is made to feel different, and nobody is wrong (unless you actually argue that doctrine is in fact important).

We know that Christ is the truth, and he has revealed to us his full intentions for man, and he has given us his church. We cannot have Christ apart from the truth, such a thing is not possible. Love is not compromising truth to make people feel better, in fact in the end it's a violence upon the soul. True love then is living the truth, and it should be manifested in all of us in repentance, humility and compassion. When we fall away from these things, as I do every day, I don’t blame the church for it. The problem is me, I am the sinful and unworthy servant.

True love then will exist fully when we all live out what the church calls us to be. True destruction will come about when we decide we can alter the truth as we need, or set aside what God has placed before us.

We will not be judged by how much we give to charity or how good we make other people feel.

What are we as Christians without love? What are we as Christians without the Truth?... for God is Love and Truth. Matthew, read Christos Yannaros on the "heresy of pietism". You can find it on the internet.

It was said concerning Abba Agathon that some monks came to find him, having heard tell of his great discernment. Wanting to see if he would lose his temper, they said to him, "Aren't you that Agathon who is said to be a fornicator and a proud man?" "Yes, it is very true," he answered. They resumed, "Aren't you that Agathon who lacks love for his fellow man?" "I am." Again they said, "Aren't you Agathon the heretic?" But at that, he replied, "I am not a heretic." So they asked him, "Tell us why you accepted everything we cast you, but repudiated this last insult." He replied, "The first accusations I take to myself, for that is good for my soul. But heresy is separation from God. Now I have no wish to be separated from God." At this saying they were astonished at his discernment and returned, edified.- The Desert Fathers

I like this, icxn, where is it from? Isn't there a book called "Sayings of the Desert Fathers"? If yes, then how big is it? I keep hearing "Desert Fathers" this and that and am sure I've read and heard many stories here and there, but actually haven't read any books per se, but don't want something long and overwhelming (e.g. Fr. Seraphim's Biography).

There are many Roman Catholic and Protestant charities in the United States that share their love to the world through positive action. In the Orthodox Churches, there is right worship and there is right doctrine but is there right action? I have not heard of any successful Orthodox charities but this may be do to an ignorance.

My parish is working a soup kitchen, frequently holding fundraisers for many charitable endeavors -- domestic and international, and helping members and non-members who are bedridden at home or in the hospital. This has been the case with every parish I've attended.

What did you mean by "successful" charities? I would consider one belly filled by one Christian's loving act a successful charity.

Logged

"The creed is very simple, and here is what it is: to believe that there is nothing more beautiful, more courageous, and more perfect than Christ; and there not only isn't, but I tell myself with a jealous love, there cannot be." ~ Fyodor Dostoevsky

I like this, icxn, where is it from? Isn't there a book called "Sayings of the Desert Fathers"? If yes, then how big is it? I keep hearing "Desert Fathers" this and that and am sure I've read and heard many stories here and there, but actually haven't read any books per se, but don't want something long and overwhelming (e.g. Fr. Seraphim's Biography).

Hi Elisha,

Yes, "The Sayings of the Desert Fathers" and the "Lives of the Desert Fathers." You can buy them both from Amazon:

My parish is working a soup kitchen, frequently holding fundraisers for many charitable endeavors

That is very good to hear. As of now, there are not any Orthodox charities in my town. But then again, we could start one. I am sure that there are individual acts of charity but it would be good to have a charitable organization.

I hope I am not the only one who has noticed the pharisaical attitude of certain Orthodox Christians. I have been guilty of this from time to time and I am sorry for that.Tradition is important but we need not make an idol out of it, an obsticle that prevents us from loving our fellow human beings.

You're going to have the Pharisaical attitude in all faiths and walks of life... it may seem more pronounced in our Church where tradition goes back nearly 2000 years.

You are also correct in pointing out that we cannot worship the Tradition; on the other hand, from a pastoral perspective, one also has to see that people will naturally grab for the Tradition, often at the expense of the Truth... and it is our jobs to show them how there is no discontinuity with certain things that are loving and different - they can equally be extensions of the same Tradition in a new Era.

In the end, the Holy Spirit guides the Tradition; but we cannot become Tradition-nazi's or Tradition-worshippers. Neither can we become Tradition-phobes or Tradition-clasts. (New words to the Orthodox dictionary?)

Logged

"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

I hope I am not the only one who has noticed the pharisaical attitude of certain Orthodox Christians. I have been guilty of this from time to time and I am sorry for that.Tradition is important but we need not make an idol out of it, an obsticle that prevents us from loving our fellow human beings.

Matthew, Actually there are many times when I have felt exactly as your original post. Let me tell you why. I know of Orthodox Charities.. the IOCC, and also the Ladies Philoptochos.. which is the largest female charity organization in this country... There is also Project Mexico orphanage and community building project. However, there are several issues that create the feeling that Orthodox are a 'closed door' to the ills of the world. One is that these efforts are very low profile...In general you may hear about them if you belong to the church, but that is not a given... The parishes and Metropolitans don't necessarily promote supporting the IOCC or Project Mexico. Hence, many Orthodox don't know enough about the organizations and how they can participate- such as yourself... And the low profile of the organizations to me is a symptom of the problem you have mentioned.. how to reach out to the non-Orthodox to help with worthy causes..It creates and impression that we are not interested in working with others for charitable causes. While parishes run festivals to ease the parish budget...sometimes there is an event within it for Philoptochos... but not always... And I've never seen any event or statement at a festival saying that a percent of the proceed would fund the IOCC or Project Mexico...and some of these festivals make several hundred thousand dollars... Recently, I experienced something similar to what you describe....focus on 'tradtion' but not Christianity... In our startup we had the opportunity to use a local motel... a reputable chain that had a banquet room free every Sunday morning.. and they would set up the chairs for us and clean up...at dirt cheap prices...It was on a major state road, clean, well located, and used by local businesses during the week for training and meetings...so it was ideal.... The parishioners complained that the motel would offer rooms to the homeless in winter and they didn't want to be near that... Can you imagine...?? I told them "so does the Waldorf!" I suggested that this was a major opportunity for us "... why not run our clothing sale there, or a glendi, and benefit the homeless? What a way to help start the parish, get visibility in the community, and do good works at the same time..." It would have been front page local news... I was persona non grata with this idea... The people want all charity to go to the parish first...so they can build their gargantuan structure...but I believe a parish must payback the community as it goes forward.. even if only 500$. While I know not everyone feels this way, the problem was that the clergy and hierarchy did not intervene in this situation to 'show the way'... so everyone now feels justified they were right....The other issue that works against the Orthodox church image of Christian living... is that the various denominations of Orthodoxy, while collegially joined in SCOBA, really don't have a strong visible voice to lead the discussion on charity and good works... the message is left up to Philoptochos and IOCC to do this on their own...and the local bishops... so it is 'piecemeal'...a small group fragmented further...

I tend to believe that tradition only has value if it leads to acts which reflect Christ's commandments to his people... preserving traditions without proactively living the Word is like maintaining an antique car that can't be driven... It's like saying "Christ is risen, he is our saviour, this is how tradition says to worship Him" and then we forget to emphasize "and this is how He told us to live"...

Forgive me readers if I sound cynical.. but after 2 years on Parish Council, meeting with hierarchy and leaders of the church at large, I can tell you that all is not rosey in our earthly paradise... politics loom large, the rich and mighty have significant influence over the impoverished congregations and hierarchs...and while there are people and clergy that work very hard and are good hearted and well-meaning... I can tell you that is not the overall feeling I was left with after my up- close view...talk about a shocker....I have a collegue whose Papou started Ionian village working in the Archdiocese for Iakovos... and she feels the same way....

May God show mercy on us for what we on earth have done to His church...

Kizzy, I think what you describe could fit many churches. I have seen myself (and include myself):

- Trouble practicing what one preaches, especially in regards to the poor and afflicted.- The ugliness of church politics.

I think this is more of a general Christian problem than it is one specific to Orthodoxy.

Actually it is a problem in any organization run by people... which includes churches... But the issue for us, getting back to Matthew's post, is the 'pretense' of the righteousness of Orthodoxy when we have the same human weaknesses as everyone else...some on this site state the rottenness of only Catholicism.. but i see the weaknesses in ours as well...so neither RC or the Orthodox church is 'perfect' through and through.. both have improvement opportunities...but the first step is recognizing the weaknesses...which is tough to do with so much energy devoted to 'we are the only True Church' ...and so much anger against the RC and Protestant faiths...

In my Church, we uphold Orthodox tradition but without having the internal political feuds that plague other Orthodox Churches. We are also open-minded and tolerant about non-Orthodox Christians. On the other hand, we could perhaps do more charity work.

"The creed is very simple, and here is what it is: to believe that there is nothing more beautiful, more courageous, and more perfect than Christ; and there not only isn't, but I tell myself with a jealous love, there cannot be." ~ Fyodor Dostoevsky

So we have some dead tradition of the living in our churches. I don't think the answer is to discard tradition so that we all feel good and then allow any putrid heresy to fester in our churches because "we aren't going to be pharisaical."

Tossing tradition out is at least as bad as blindly living according to a misunderstood tradition.

I don't understand why you are attempting to make a joke out of this thread. I have addressed important issues and truths. If we are unable to love anyone outside of Orthodoxy then we are not even Christian.

I don't understand why you are attempting to make a joke out of this thread. I have addressed important issues and truths. If we are unable to love anyone outside of Orthodoxy then we are not even Christian.

You unfortunately addressed those by means of a note wrapped around a huge boulder that you hurled at the rest of us. If you can't even love those within Orthodoxy...

Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

I don't understand why you are attempting to make a joke out of this thread. I have addressed important issues and truths. If we are unable to love anyone outside of Orthodoxy then we are not even Christian.

Matthew,I think it may be that there is nothing to really say. As Christians, we're called to love everyone. We know this. We try... we fall short... we try again. However, any personal failings shouldn't make us question the importance of Orthodox doctrine.

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Matthew,I think it may be that there is nothing to really say. As Christians, we're called to love everyone. We know this. We try... we fall short... we try again. However, any personal failings shouldn't make us question the importance of Orthodox doctrine.

Orthodox doctine is important but doctrine without love is dead. Sometimes I have been so closedminded where I could not love anyone. I felt angry against anyone who expressed unorthodox opinions. I failed to see the icon of Christ within every individual and for that I am sorry.

Orthodox doctine is important but doctrine without love is dead. Sometimes I have been so closedminded where I could not love anyone. I felt angry against anyone who expressed unorthodox opinions. I failed to see the icon of Christ within every individual and for that I am sorry.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.

And the cure is to tell the rest of us that we're doing it?

Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Well, it happens on this forum all the time. Think of how many times I have been called "unorthodox" for being non-Chalcedonian. Think of how some have accused Billy Graham of being a "false prophet" even though he has spread the Gospel to more people than anyone before. Or how about the claim that we shouldn't pray the Hail Mary because it is a "Catholic prayer" even though we recite it in the liturgy? This is the sort of Orthodox pharisaism I have been talking about. I am sorry if I have upset anyone but this super-correct attitude is displayed on this forum too often. May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.

I dont think anyone else here exhibits any problem with OO/non-Chalcedoneans, nor does anyone else appear to feel some "hurt" about it. This is one of the most accepting and tolerant forums I've ever seen. Discussion happens about the theological side of things, but guess what? Being called 'unorthodox" probably just means that whoever is describing you as such thinks your ideas are out in left field, or "unorthodox." No one's calling you names.

Think of how some have accused Billy Graham of being a "false prophet" even though he has spread the Gospel to more people than anyone before.

Oh come on, Billy is a fly-by-night evangelist. He's a blip on the radar screen. The Saints and Fathers and Mothers in the Orthodox Catholic Church were spreading the Gospel for nearly two thousand years before his sect was contrived.

May thy spirit be the first to be trodden by your peace.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2005, 01:40:44 AM by Strelets »

Logged

"The creed is very simple, and here is what it is: to believe that there is nothing more beautiful, more courageous, and more perfect than Christ; and there not only isn't, but I tell myself with a jealous love, there cannot be." ~ Fyodor Dostoevsky

Think of how many people he has actually preached to. Though he is a Protestant, I'd bet that at least 90% of what he teaches concerning the Gospel is correct. It is great that we have someone as influential and charismatic to spread the Gospel as Billy Graham.