I don't see why there can't be a queue for them, I really don't. Some players on dud realms, or with awkward times, may not have the benefit of guild or a trade chat to help them; that doesn't mean they don't have the ability to clear these dungeons.

I get the whole argument that you can't put random groups together and expect them to play well, but that choice should be up to the players.

The new group finder will make this less of an issue, I think. You can put together a group for anything you want.

I've voted "Awesome" but we all know how it'll end, they've tried with Cataclysm and we all know what has happened, people will start complaining that they're too difficult and can't progress further and Blizzard must nerf everything, so that people will complain about the heroics being too easy and will start accusing Blizzard to cater to casuals, it's a neverending circle.

Feels like 95% support from people with lots of disposable time. And that shit got canned within weeks. Best bet is to look at what the majority of mouthy forum dwellers want and implement the opposite.

Feels like 95% support from people with lots of disposable time. And that shit got canned within weeks. Best bet is to look at what the majority of mouthy forum dwellers want and implement the opposite.

It got canned for a reason, it was absolutely fucking ruining gameplay. People (both devs and especially gamers) though, don't realized subtle differences. For instance, "hard heroics" can be a good thing but designing LFD around it is a pretty bad idea. It's the reason LFR has been a massive failure this expansion.

There's good things to "hard heroics" - by having a lot of free time (if I had the free time I do now, I would have had to quit the game) I was able to learn the game rather quickly, the hard way. I think to a point that has made me as a raider almost better off than "Wrath babies" who started the game previously but when things were easy.

I don't see why there can't be a queue for them, I really don't. Some players on dud realms, or with awkward times, may not have the benefit of guild or a trade chat to help them; that doesn't mean they don't have the ability to clear these dungeons.

I get the whole argument that you can't put random groups together and expect them to play well, but that choice should be up to the players.

Because LFD trash teleport to dungeon, suck ass for 5min, leave group, and cry on forums for nerfs incessantly and they get the nerfs eventually ruining the dungeons. That is why there should not be LFD for mythic.

Cata heroics were fun and hard. Games in general should have a measure of difficulty and reward when beating something. Which is also why I feel they should remove LFR and leave flex as the difficulty below normal. Such as if it were released with MoP have heroics give the usually 463 with the rare chance of an epic, then have Flex with gear drops at 476 then have normals drop 489. I think Blizzard has to start looking at the server community in general and realize that was an integral part of MMO's and people should start making friends on their respective servers(which connecting servers isnt a bad idea) Im not saying that we dont make friends, I would just like to see people in pug's more accountable for their actions, something you dont see in LFR.

Im not saying that we dont make friends, I would just like to see people in pug's more accountable for their actions, something you dont see in LFR.

It's also easier to teach newer players how to play if they are brought into a smaller group, than in a 25 man mess when "mob mentality" takes over. Face it, at the end of the day a pretty important step in going from "noob" to "veteran" is having other players (not just guides/written stuff, which a "noob" can't tell which ones are good or bad) instruct you on what's the right way to do things.

That's a lot easier to do and more rewarding in smaller groups, in larger groups it's hard to sort out who to listen to (for the noob), and for the veteran, extremely frustrating dealing with many scrubs at a time.

Terrible idea. I don't see why people want tougher heroics in the days of Dungeon Finder. Heroics are a time-sink. They're a stepping stone. A grind. They're not like raids, which you do to gain high quality loot and to experience the fun of team work and co-op play, they're the obstacle you overcome to go raiding. I like the WOTLK/MoP model for heroics, quick and easy and you can blast through them in 10-15 minutes. Simple enough that you can expect the four other randoms that get tossed in with you to have the mental capacity to do them in an efficient manner, but not so simple that you don't have to use at least a bit of your brain.

How many max level normal dungeons will there be? Iirc, there will be leveling dungeons, so how can there be enough max level normal dungeons? Unless those leveling dungeons have max level normal versions as well, in essence making some of those leveling dungeons have 3 difficulties.

We'll have to wait and see exactly what Blizz has in store, but if normal mode dungeons are entry level gear to stuff like LFR, it may have made more sense to instead of having "max level normal dungeons" they could've renamed those heroic dungeons and rename heroic dungeons mythic dungeons. I think some people are getting too tripped up by the terms "normal dungeon" and "heroic dungeons" where I believe "normal dungeons" will actually just equal MoP "heroics" in difficulty and rewards.

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Originally Posted by Yggdrasil

Been here and done it already. But if they need to to blow up in their faces again then so be it.

Once again, difference is Cata had no options outside of heroic 5 mans, this time there are.

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Thinking about it, and reading their post "announcing" harder heroics I've decided they should've just called "hard heroics" mythic. It appears there will be normal modes of all dungeons at max level. And heroics. That's going to be very confusing for people as what they've had since 4.3 was heroics = easy. And there haven't been max level normals in awhile.

They're likely going for a new form of endgame where heroics are endgame for some people. Not a path for entry level gear to LFR.

5 man dungeons need a different structural purpose in the overarching design of content right now before their difficulty is even relevant. Since TBC 5 mans have been largely useless within the first month for the majority of the player base. Until something happens that significantly extends the time that they're relevant than their difficulty really means fuck all.

5 man dungeons need a different structural purpose in the overarching design of content right now before their difficulty is even relevant. Since TBC 5 mans have been largely useless within the first month for the majority of the player base. Until something happens that significantly extends the time that they're relevant than their difficulty really means fuck all.

Just so I can get some perspective on what you are saying, what would you say is the overarching design of current LFR?

Terrible idea. I don't see why people want tougher heroics in the days of Dungeon Finder. Heroics are a time-sink. They're a stepping stone. A grind. They're not like raids, which you do to gain high quality loot and to experience the fun of team work and co-op play, they're the obstacle you overcome to go raiding. I like the WOTLK/MoP model for heroics, quick and easy and you can blast through them in 10-15 minutes. Simple enough that you can expect the four other randoms that get tossed in with you to have the mental capacity to do them in an efficient manner, but not so simple that you don't have to use at least a bit of your brain.

Not every player gives a shit about raiding. The act of raiding is also a grind, a "time-sink." That WotLK experience came after players massively outgeared the content and was still more difficult than MoP "heroics" at minimum ilvl requirements. Dungeons might be a stepping stone for you while for a number of players even in WotLK the dungeons was all they cared about. The majority doesnt do traditional raiding which requires teamwork and co-op play. LFR has shown to have failed in the developers goal to be the only long term end game for non-traditional raiders. Blizzard is looking for a variety of methods to keep the wide variety of customers who play WoW engaged.

Scenarios are still there if you want something fast and easy along with normal modes.

Originally Posted by mistahwilshire

5 man dungeons need a different structural purpose in the overarching design of content right now before their difficulty is even relevant. Since TBC 5 mans have been largely useless within the first month for the majority of the player base. Until something happens that significantly extends the time that they're relevant than their difficulty really means fuck all.

While the value of badge farming had increased with new rewards popping up later in the expansion the idea that the rewards was largely useless within the first month for the majority would only hold claim to serious progression raiders. The majority didnt raid and the time investment required to exhaust those heroics within a month was no small task for those on a more casual play time.

WoW finally has the structure in place to support different content and difficulties for different audiences. Many of the problems they've had over the past few years with content which involves any kind of moderate difficulty (and therefore requires some level of teamwork and cooperation) is down to the fact that Random Matchmaking throws groups together which want different things; some players just want a speedy gear run, other players want to do content properly, some players are just deliberately out to troll/grief, others are completely clueless and want to be boosted, etc.

Players come out of LFR/LFD with such a negative view whenever their group fails that they blame the content being "too hard". Pickup groups and groups involving friends/family/guilds/etc don't have that problem because those groups are formed and controlled by players themselves.

Blizzard have already announced that they want Random Matchmaking to be a 'last resort' and put the focus back on the TBC/WotLK style of group building (with the new group finder tool). Flex Raiding and Heroic Scenarios have already been a success - the next logical step is to go back to challenging 5-mans without LFD.