Meta Question

What is your opinion of Fluther as of late?

I hate to be a negative nancy, but IMO the quality has greatly decrease over the past month. There are torrents of new questions a day(which is great) but a very small percentage of them are actually good. Maybe its another one of the rough patches like we’ve experience many times over in the past, but this seems to be lasting much longer and getting progressively worse as time passes, not better.

Am I alone in these feelings or has there really been a decline? If the latter is the case, what can we do to put fluther back to the glory it once was?

I’ve been pretty down as of late, so I’ve not been around as much. Maybe I just haven’t noticed like you have? I have noticed a huge influx of sex related questions, though, which is fine, I guess, but those things get pretty repetitive.

Good questions are thought provoking, and make for a good conversation/debate. Bad question, generic run of the mill question we’ve all seen a million times/easily googleable (is that a word?)/ no thought put into it/ welll look at the front page…...

I dont know maybe its me, but it feels like i get 200 new questions a day and maybe 3 of them are enjoyable.

I agree, @uberbatman, with your opinion. I haven’t been getting on nearly as much, merely once a day to check my activities, comments, and questions. I rarely get any questions for me anymore. I’m just not as into Fluther as much as of late.

If a question is of poor quality, then it would assuredly gather less attention than one of high quality. Thus, poor questions will be quicker to reach obscurity and be forgotten. Hypothetically the question-asker would realize that his/her question is of poor quality and attempt to make them better. At the very worst, they would simply continue to ask poor questions and they would continue to be ignored. That would hurt absolutely no one and have absolutely no negative impact on anything. The good questions will still exist, the good questions will still inspire the discussion, and the people who ask good questions will still be rewarded.

I think we should reconsider the purpose of Fluther. Was it meant to solve technical situations? Was it meant to solve relationship situations? Was it meant to do polls? Was it meant to be a community? Maybe that’s something to bring up at the next Jellytable. A mission statement would be nice, but I’m not a big fan of constitutions and such that bind you in any situation. I say, a point in the mission should be to make things easily flexible, so as not to bind people to one area of thought.

I actually have really been enjoying fluther a lot more, as of late, specifically because of all the new faces. I love that there are a lot more questions being asked now, and I don’t see much change in quality. Not only have there been more questions asked, it seems like there are more people in the chat room and more quips.

Some days are better than others here on Fluther but it’s never been so bad that I didn’t still want to visit and participate here on a daily basis. You answer the good questions and offer comments on material that appeals to you and you avoid whatever you think is stupid, objectionable, or unappealing. It’s pretty simple.

Who, then, has the authority to define what a ‘good’ question is? Any question which inspires discussion is, in my opinion, a question worth asking. I don’t see it rational to have some sort of governing body decide which questions are acceptable and which are not. Ultimately, that should be up to the people to decide. “Will my dick fit in Obamas mouth?” would most certainly get flagged as inappropriate and thus removed.

I pretty much agree. A website shouldn’t define what its own niche is and then expect that everyone else fall in line. Largely, the users should define what they want from the site, and thus what should be allowed. Obviously there are limits to that, but you get the idea.

@La_chica_gomela But the thing is, when the questions get worse, less people will answer, and then less activity will be seen and then less good questions will be asked and then less people will answer…

It’s all cyclical until we get a big influx like New York Times articles or Apple frontpages.

Everything changes. Maybe you are getting some overflow from a failed site elsewhere, but there are some quality people that have come here.

Realize please that this situation will change soon too. Some users will stay and some will leave. However it would speak ill of the site in general if the site were to suddenly split in two over something as small as a migration of users from another site.

@La_chica_gomela Ya, but that influx was different because this is the way I saw it, it might not actually be the case they were constrained to the rules already made, and there was no room for them to influence the collective. They didn’t bring their spice with them from the “old country”.

The Wis.dmers came when? A month ago? That’s when these new rules were coming into place, and their spice was taken away from them. Variation and different colourful opinions are what makes a community interesting. What’s a soup with one flavour that tatstes the same everyday. We need something interesting and thought proviking that only fresh minds can bring.

I’m not saying that anyone is against the newcomers. In fact, I want newcomers, and their refreshing opinions and different takes on the world. What I’m saying is that the old influxes were great because they weren’t restrained. The Wis.dm migration was restrained, and they couldn’t spice it up even if they tried because of these new moderation processes that the mods are putting into place.

The last two days for me have been a breath of fresh air, I really see it turning around.
There’s still a way to go, and I’m cool with that. I miss the old days, but doesn’t everyone miss the old days of something?

Do you remember when you could scroll down a thread and not bump into a fight in progress? it was a simpler time… a time of wonder and merriment… a time when jellies frolicked freely in the ever growing expanse of their imaginations….

@uberbatman What problems? People were asking what was on their minds. This is a social question and answer site, to me at least, look below.

What I suggest is that we make a mission statement, made of everyone’s input not on a weekday at 7 AM Eastern time or 2 AM in New Zealand. We can agree what the purpose of Fluther is, and how to maintain that purpose. We can update this every once in a while, to see how the site evolves and compare notes. And it should be seperate from the guidelines.

It seems like a handful of people (Bendrew) are deciding what gets to be asked and what doesn’t. They have the right, as you said, they are paying the bills. However, they are responsible for a group of people too. This is a community, and freedom of speech is a basic human right. There are limitations to this however. A constitution is binding the individual to a specific area, but we have to make flex room. If we make the primary sentence in a constitution There must be flexroom for this constitution, then there could be freedom of speech without going overboard.

@Mtl_zack problems such as assloads of questions that went against the already in place guidelines. And no really theres no such thing as freedom of speech on a website that you dont own. They decide how much freedoms we have. If we dont like it, we leave.

Websites are technically a corporation, or an owned entity, but what happens when that entity is a community? In a community, there is interaction between members, there are disputes, and there are joyous occasions. When you bring a community into an entity that is controlled by an oligopoly, that group of people who are controlling the site are responsible for the other members, much like many governments in the world. Bendrew has literally become the Fluther gods you may laugh, but hear me out, the mods are the police/administrators/judicial system and me, @johnpowell, @Ivan, @Dr_C and any other member is a contributor to the community, and therefore has rights.

There is no resentment over the fact that Fluther does not conform to our every wish. There is resentment over the notion that our wishes are worthless and offensive. We merely want to have an open discussion over what would help to improve the site. You seem to want the exact opposite.

I think it is the idea that we are merely the lowly peons who are granted access to the royal palace but not allowed to touch anything that is the only point of contention here.

@Ivan: Until you know the site for more than two weeks, I really don’t think you have much to contribute. Nor do I believe you have an understanding of the community that would benefit you in your approach.

@uberbatman This is completely hypothetical, but what if me and many of the other flutherites who give great responses and pose very intellectual discussions just left. We go. Bye bye. Saronara. You’re questions would be unanswered, and you would be missing out. Then, Fluther goes down, way down.

The same goes for governments. If a group of people just leave the country, they leave their jobs, they leave the military, everything is vulnerable. The economy fails, the military fails, the government fails and the country is just a barren pit.

@Mtl_zack uhhh hypotheticaly a bunch of us jellies leave then there would be less great questions/answers thats it. I doubt all of fluthers community will suddenly vanish one day. And even so just because we can threat to leave, that doesnt give us any “rights” what-so-ever. That just makes us assholes.

@johnpowell I don’t want you putting words in my mouth. This is the problem, Fluther is being dominated by a single set of rules that no one except for the major players can change. @asmonet You’re treating him as inferior in some way just because you’ve been here longer. And I’m just _really pissed at @johnpowell‘s hate.

@uberbatman Wouldn’t less great questions be bad for you? Isn’t this what made you start this thread? You started this because you were complaining that there weren’t enough good answers/questions.

You will not be the judge of whether or not I have something to contribute. I may be a newcomer to Fluther but I am not a newcomer to Q/A sites, social networks, Internet communities, or website design.

Haha. I don’t hate Fluther. Actually, contrary to the implication of this question, I was actually enjoying my time here over the past few days as opposed to the initial few. Most people here are relatively interesting and polite. You may hate me, but that’s OK. My stay here was never dependent on whether or not I was well liked or even on whether or not I enjoyed the site. Wis.dm needed a new home; I was going wherever they were going.

Oh, and the ‘love it or leave it’ argument doesn’t get any less nonsensical the more times you use it.

@uberbatman: The new guidelines were not, in fact, placed due to the influx of new users. They’ve been addressing the general reduction in thoughtfulness that’s been happening over the last year—but in the last few days, since the new policy has gone up on the blog, the quality of questions by and large has been quite good.

In terms of a mission statement, I think the last few blog posts have summed that up pretty darn well. We could just close the door and not let anyone else join, but we’ve made the conscious decision that we’re not a band of elites—and even “quality” users can generate poor content. Rather, Fluther is a place to inspire the highest quality discourse on the internet—and a place to teach people how to generate that content.

For older members, I remind you that our core value is one of teaching, not of shaming, snark, or ridicule.

For newer members, I remind you that we do have a clear set of guidelines on what is and what is not acceptable on the site. If you’re unclear about those guidelines, ask in a thoughtful way. If you disagree with those guidelines, find another community to join.

Yes, we have had an increase in load, users, and discussions. We’re expanding the moderation team as we speak.

Whether or not you agree with the ratio of discussion-oriented questions to help-oriented discussions on the main page is your personal preference. We’ll be introducing tools to facilitate that preference.

I would say, however, that if you’re still displeased with the quality over the last two days, that you start asking some quality questions of your own.

@uberbatman Don’t be so cocky, it’s plain rude@asmonet I’ve been here for over a year. And keep your snaps to yourself “For older members, I remind you that our core value is one of teaching, not of shaming, snark, or ridicule.”

@Mtl_zack im not being cocky, im merely stating that if the content dropped off that badly i would have no reason to stay here.

@andrew
“but in the last few days, since the new policy has gone up on the blog, the quality of questions by and large has been quite good.” Seems like most of the mods think otherwise….

“I would say, however, that if you’re still displeased with the quality over the last two days, that you start asking some quality questions of your own.” Yea, ya see the thing is i try not to ask anything unless i believe i genuinely have something good to ask…

@Ivan Wow “situations that can be improved for the better”? What, to suit your needs? When will you understand that this site is not about YOU? How self-centered can you be? This is, after all, a community AND a business. Why would anyone want to change their business model to suit you? Get over yourself!

@shilolo But when there are other people involved who are essential for the growth of Fluther, who help Fluther strive without pay from a so called business, Fluther has to make sure that these unrecognized individuals get some sort of control of what they are contributing.

“What a piece of work is man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals! ” Hamlet quote (Act II, Sc. II).

If you wish to discuss the merits of my argument, I would be happy. But I am not going to get into a back-and-forth insult duel. If you want to explain why my position is, in fact, illogical, please, I encourage it. But please do not merely insult me.

I honestly don’t understand where this notion comes from. Why is it that a desire to improve a community is seen as selfish? (The following analogies are not indicative if my situation, they are used as reference in the context of shilolo’s argument only. There is no need to lecture me about how my ‘plight’ is not equal to that of the victims involved) Was it selfish of African Americans to partake in a civil rights movement? Was it selfish of women for them to desire the right to vote? Don’t you think that society as a whole has improved since the civil rights movement and women’s suffrage?

This is not a self-centered goal. I honestly cannot count how many times I have said on this site that I do not wish to change Fluther to meet my demands. I am not making a wish list that I want you to fulfill. I do not want Fluther to change into the new wis.dm. I do not want Fluther to incorporate every feature I desire and get rid of every one I dislike. I only ask that each and every person’s ideas be considered and openly discussed for the betterment of the site and the community as a whole.

@Ivan: I enjoy the Fluther I had, have and will have as the creators intended. I see no problems, and any minor issues I might have will always end with a single e-mail to andrew or ben. If I have a suggestion I will also e-mail them privately, once. It is not my place to make demands.

This is their project, their passion. Not mine.
I enjoy the benefits, with absolutely no sacrifice on my part.

It would be wrong of me to demand they cater to my whims. I find the argument offensive.

@Ivan You showed up here from wis.dm and from DAY ONE started complaining. You think we’ve forgotten that? I, for one, have not. Your words are not the words of a veteran user. You want the crappy Qs to stay in order to reflect your old (crappy) site. We do not. It is that simple. I have a very long memory, both for complaints and insults. Never forget!

It clears nothing up, as I have clearly and repeatedly said that I am making no demands and do not wish anyone to cater to my whims. Your ideology is one of conservatism. Those who are privileged want nothing to change. They lose sight of the progress they could be making in an attempt to maintain what they believe to be a fortunate existence. It is, at it’s heart, a disturbing and irrational philosophy.

Of course I was ‘complaining.’ I am still ‘complaining’ and I will continue to ‘complain.’ That is the essence of a progressive and logical mindset and the very issue at hand. Should we invite and encourage the discussion derived form such complaints or not? That is the issue. Whether or not to implement the changes desired in those complaints is not the issue.

Bendrew own Fluther as a company. They use us, the members, as people who serve other people, and we get no recognition or pay off of it, except for lurve, which has no use!. @asmonet You said this was a business, right? And Ben and Andrew are making money off this, amybe not a profit, but they are recieving monetary recognition. @shilolo On Facebook you choose to buy a gift or click an ad. You don’t make the site more marketable or more appealing to potential users. @shilolo So only veterans have a say on issues regarding Fluther? I thought you wanted only Ben and Andrew to have opinions of what Fluther really is.

@Mtl_zack “Bendrew own Fluther as a company. They use us, the members, as people who serve other people, and we get no recognition or pay off of it, except for lurve, which has no use!.” if you have such a problem, why do you hang around?

Um, actually I’m one of the few that supports the changes that have been made to accommodate Fluther. And as I said, I support whatever change and evolution bendrew have in mind, how am I striving to conserve the old?

Those who fight to enact change for it’s own sake, lose sight of any hope they had for a better world. Period.

@uberbatman because I developed friends here on Fluther. Fluther is helpful to me, and when someone answers my question, it helps my life. @asmonet I’m not asking for money. I’m asking for a say on how to develop and improve Fluther.
I’m going to bed, I have to wake up at 6:45 and it’s 1:30 here. I’m out.

Friends let us not indulge in this any longer… the aggresive tone of this thread is leading us down the very path we hoped to avoid. Let’s instead be patient and let the waters calm before we permanently lodge our collective foot in our collective mouth.

“How poor are they that have not patience!
What wound did ever heal but by degrees?
Thou know’st we work by wit, and not by witchcraft;
And wit depends on dilatory time.”

@Ivan fuck it, im tired of this circular argument with you. I realize me and you will never see eye to eye on this. It must be nice though living in a world where all businesses care about what you have to say.

@Ivan What logic do you speak of? “I want to recreate a defunct site that failed because shitty questions begat shitty discussions begat no money?” Is that your logic? I wouldn’t be making that the cornerstone of my thesis if I were you (which, thankfully, I am not).

I am part of this “problem” I think. My friends (and not-so-friends) from wis.dm and I, who have joined in the last month or so, have been asking a lot more questions than you are used to, and probably not all up to calibre. Why the mods have allowed them is their decision, but I think it’s a combination of sheer quantity to deal with, plus a flexibility in order to make the group feel more welcome (we’ve never been moderated before, and I can tell you that the first time is very intimidating and can put one off to the sight completely).

Being not very cynical, and having had the pleasure of a (mostly) warm welcome here, together with (mostly) excellent moderating, including from Andrew himself, I’d like to think that the allowance of (more, sometimes not so brilliant) questions was a strategic maneuver on the site’s part and will reap long-term benefits of the addition of many from the wis.dm community. Had it been played differently, we (neo-fluthers) might have been intimidated and turned off and wouldn’t have stayed, and you (alte-fluthers) would have lost out, imho. We’re a good bunch, smart and witty for the most part. Just used to asking as many questions as we want, no moderation at all, and the questions don’t even have to be questions and with no details explaining anything. Quite different to get your mind wrapped around. Walk a mile…

Where on Earth are you getting that from? Have you actually read anything that i have said on this thread, or for that matter, on this site at all, whatsoever? Apparently not. I don’t know how many times I have to clearly and whole-heartedly state that I do not in fact wish for Fluther to become the new Wis.dm or anything else. You, along with many others here, seem quite content on putting words in my mouth and simply refusing to listen to anything I have to say at all in any context in the slightest.

Oh boy, another tantalising debate. Fluther is a wonderful site, it really is, and I enjoy it a lot but it is not perfect. Why would you limit yourself to the ideas of two people when there is an entire community of members who use the site every day. “Bendrew” knows how the site is supposed to but we, the users, know how well it works. There is nothing wrong with a simple “Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if we had ____” or “Maybe you should do _____” but it seems that these things aren’t welcomed. I understand that the JellyTable is for these ideas but what about the people who can’t make the JellyTable discussions? Does Fluther just say “screw your ideas” to that person?

Ivan is not trying to stir things up or lead you in circles, he is trying to stimulate debate…not argument. By looking at the amount of insults on this page I can tell that debate is a forgotten art for most Flutherites. It’s about bouncing ideas of eachother, discussing views, not “I don’t agree with you so now I leave.” If everyone from wis.dm suddenly left the site Fluther would lose all the different opinions that we bring. You would probably be glad we left but the site would never make progress. All of us coming here and challenging your rules, introducing ideas, and asking new questions has made people think and will eventually make the site better.

We all want to get along, but it is never going to happen if people keep insulting eachother and starting fights. I want everyone to look back at each one of Ivan’s posts and try to find something that was mean or offensive. There was nothing. But since he had contrary thoughts he was insulted. Fluther should not be this way.

@3or4monsters no, i’m saying people bitching about things they have no control over is nothing. i’m saying people bitching over things they don’t like, and are not obligated to use is nothing.

i agree that the questions have taken a bit of a hit quality-wise, but that’s because another group has come in, whose questions are perhaps of a different level or interest, and merged into the establish culture here at Fluther.

This group was not obligated, in part or in whole, to come here. From what i can tell on wis.dm (when it eventually loads), there was a vote and no small discussion about where to relocate. This was optional.

IMO, if you don’t like how things are operataed, leave. Shaw said, “People who get on in this world don’t blame their circumstances. They find the circumstances they like, and if they can’t find them, they make them.” Now, i realize someone’s going to come along and moan “We are trying to make the circumstances we like…” except it isn’t entirely your place to do so. As was hinted at above, can you imagine if a bunch of new folks signed up for Twitter, let’s say, and went “You know, 140 characters is pretty small. I want bigger! Biz is a nazi for limiting it to 140 characters!” and bitched about it ad infinitum?

The more close-knit nature of Fluther, at this stage of the game, is leading people into thinking they can dump on it. @Ivan will continue to bitch and whine that the “love it or leave it” principle is not applicable, etc., but it is. End of story. Go to askville, go to Yahoo Answers!, go to Metafilter, go build your own site. But shut the hell up about this one.

@eponymoushipster Go reread Ivan’s comments, he is not “bitching and whining”. His point is that if people don’t like it and they leave then the site will never improve, but if someone doesn’t like something and they ask about it then the site can find it’s flaws and improve the site. This is how progress is made.

@eponymoushipster This is me acknowledging what you’ve said. I can’t disagree. I don’t understand sticking around if you’re not happy, or trying to change the community to fit the needs of one person. That said..

@J0E It sounds like to me that there are more people happy with the way things are now than there are people who are unhappy and want it to change. Why should the majority change to accommodate the minority?

@J0E People join and leave all the time. That is the nature of the internet. I’m sure you’ve joined other sites, signed on, messed around, and then never went back. You probably don’t even remember all the times this has happened (I certainly don’t). The gist of peoples’ issues is precisely embedded in your comment. “His point is that if people don’t like it and they leave then the site will never improve, but if someone doesn’t like something and they ask about it then the site can find it’s flaws and improve the site.” The fact is, he has expressed his opinion ad nauseum about Fluther’s so-called “flaws” and the need for “improvement”. Management doesn’t see it that way. And that, as they say, is that. If you want (and insist that) Starbucks to start offering cheeseburgers, and they decide not to, you have two options. Accept that fact and buy your coffee there anyway, or, find another place that accommodates your needs. Why is that so hard to understand?

@3or4monsters The majority doesn’t need to accomodate the minority, but how will the majority hear a good idea if the minority keeps quiet?

@shilolo You’re right, I have done that many times, but the reason I have stayed here is 1) my friends are here, and 2) I like this site a lot. Because I like it so much I want to see it be the best it can be…as should you.

@eponymoushipster That is exactly why we share our ideas, thoughts, and concerns. Differences of opinion and bouncing ideas of each other are preludes to progress.

I really don’t understand your arguments at all. Any of yours. You all say you’re not being listened to, no one wants your input, and on and on and on. But that’s simply…Bullshit. Andrew and Ben read these discussions. They’re in chat. They have e-mails, and private comments to get a hold of them through.

The reason no one is taking you seriously, and by no one I mean the members who were here before you, is because you don’t seem to realize the distinction between being listened to, having your idea considered, and being discarded as not a priority or as not in keeping with the site ideals.

You can be listened to and not have people hanging on your every word as gospel. The impression Ivan and Mtl_zack and well, more recently J0E are giving is that being listened to equates to giving out orders that must be followed.

You are not mice or sheep or silly little children. You clearly can type but for some reason you forgot the lesson on discretion and tact.

If you have a suggestion you send it to andrew or ben in private so you don’t look like a dick to those around you.

We have no problem, and I mean everyone on Fluther with change or improvement. We do take issue with whiny users who don’t understand what is and is not an appropriate avenue of communication.

@J0E seriously, you are pretty thick about all of this. IN ANY SPHERE of life, be it a job, a new skill anything – if you walked in and tried to change things or “suggest” a new way to do things, they’d laugh at you and/or tell you to shut the hell up. Trying to “improve” things without adequate experience in the thing trying to be “improved” is called cockiness and stupidity.

fantastic, you were on another, different Q&A site. that’s gone bye-bye now. move on with it. and it doesn’t mean you have any experience or cache on this one.

make with the whiney-whiney in private, on your old, dead website, or in private communique to benadrew.

And what keeps popping into my head as I read this, is that I’m not so different. I have actually requested a feature that I think would add functionality to the site. They know about it, I’ve spoke andrew about it in passing, and I know it’s not a priority even though they want to do it. I agree, it shouldn’t be.

I PMed andrew to tell him the first time (I think), and the rest was conducted in about four sentences in chat. I got my answer and moved on.

Do you see the difference in behavior?
No one rallying on either side?
No bickering?

@J0E it sounds like they’ve heard you (and Ivan and Mt).. and they don’t agree. Why push the issue into conflict? Can’t there be compromise, or a work around, that satisfies the most people?

I’ve been befuddled about this from the start. I feel like I’m one of… five… who transferred, who doesn’t feel the need to “fight the system” or whatever in order to make this place an enjoyable place to spend time. We are ultimately in control of our enjoyment. We pick our battles. We pick our words and when it all boils down to it, delivery is everything. Half the fights on this website spring from the fact that people can’t seem to have a difference of opinion without being abrasive, dismissive, or tactless in their delivery.

These are all things we have control over. If we cannot reach a compromise, it’s because of poor delivery or we feel it’s necessary to fight (be it a single person, the rules, or “oppression at large”) and that pretty much means failure has occured before the first word is spoken.

Compromise and work arounds are always an option, but that might not seem evident if people think that swimming against the current is the only way.

@asmonet it’s not about being listened to or considered, it’s about being able to have discussions and debate about the site without being told to do it somewhere else.

@epony Just because I would get laughed at told to shut up doesn’t give my suggestions any less merrit. This has nothing to do with wis.dm, that comeback has been over used. I don’t have expirience but that is where discussion comes in, someone who does tells me that my idea wouldn’t work and then I understand why.

Look back at the comments on this thread, you’d be surprised at who really sounds like “whiny little brats.”

There is a tide in the affairs of men.Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;Omitted, all the voyage of their lifeIs bound in shallows and in miseries.On such a full sea are we now afloat,And we must take the current when it serves,Or lose our ventures.~Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3, 218–224

Funny how all of these users are able to voice their opinons on what should be added to fluther or what they believe would make it better, and then THATS IT. No beating a dead horse or whining when they arent “listened” to. There are plenty of ways to voice your opionion as stated above. Be it email, Pm, chat, fluther questions, or that nifty contact us button. But after you voice your opinon Shut The Fuck Up. We read it, great. If its liked by ben/andrew it will be added. If not tough cookies.This isnt your site, deal with it. But by continuely voicing your opinon over AND OVER AND OVER your just making yourself out to be a “whiney little brat”.

“As was hinted at above, can you imagine if a bunch of new folks signed up for Twitter, let’s say, and went “You know, 140 characters is pretty small. I want bigger! Biz is a nazi for limiting it to 140 characters!” and bitched about it ad infinitum?”

This is not analogous. No one has suggested fundamental changes to Fluther, and certainly no one has “bitched about it ad infinitum.”

We merely want to have an open discussion. You do not.

“You don’t pay for it.
You don’t moderate it.
You don’t run it.”

As I have continually stated. No one is questioning Ben and Andrew’s authority to do whatever they wish with the site. We are questioning whether it is in Fluther’s best interest to let Ben and Andrew do whatever they wish.

“he has expressed his opinion ad nauseum about Fluther’s so-called “flaws” and the need for “improvement”.”

I have done absolutely no such thing. Please cite examples to support your claim. There are very few things about Fluther that I believe could be improved upon. The only thing I have expressed ad nauseum is my desire to have an open discussion.

We merely want to have an open discussion. You do not.

“If you want (and insist that) Starbucks to start offering cheeseburgers, and they decide not to, you have two options. Accept that fact and buy your coffee there anyway, or, find another place that accommodates your needs. Why is that so hard to understand?”

No one is insisting anything. I, personally, have most certainly never insisted anything. The third option which you don’t seem to understand is the notion of having an open discussion with Starbucks about selling cheeseburgers. If they are willing to have an open discussion with you, perhaps you can reach a compromise, perhaps a better business model can be reached, perhaps the store can improve. If they don’t like your idea, then that’s fine. They won’t implement it. That’s no big deal. So long as they took the time and consideration to listen and discuss, that is all that is important. In that situation, no one loses.

“you don’t seem to realize the distinction between being listened to, having your idea considered, and being discarded as not a priority or as not in keeping with the site ideals.”

We would be entirely content with the fact that our ideas are not a priority so long as there was adequate discussion about them. That has not happened.

We merely want an open discussion.

“You can be listened to and not have people hanging on your every word as gospel. The impression Ivan and Mtl_zack and well, more recently J0E are giving is that being listened to equates to giving out orders that must be followed.”

Absolutely not. We do not wish for our “orders to be followed.” We aren’t making orders. We don’t expect or even want Fluther to adhere to our every demand.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

“We do take issue with whiny users who don’t understand what is and is not an appropriate avenue of communication.”

None of that is happening. No discussion about Fluther has occurred on this thread, or any where else for the most part.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

That’s it. That’s all we want. We just want to have an open discussion. Not only have most Fluther vets seemed unwilling to engage in such discussion, most react to the idea with anger and hostility. We do not have a list of demands. We do not want to change Fluther to suit our needs. We just want an open discussion. That isn’t whining. That isn’t being a “brat.” That isn’t being immature. That isn’t beating a dead horse. That is simply the desire to have an open discussion.

We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion….....

When I started out talking about the things I wanted to discuss, I received a huge hostile backlash. No one seemed to understand the concept of open discussion, so I felt it was necessary to explain why open discussion is vital before actually taking part in it. After all, like I said, discussion takes two parties. I can’t have an open discussion with myself. You need to be involved as well.

@Ivan “That is the goal, yes. This is the result of open discussion. The Fluther vets seem very opposed to the idea of compromise and satisfying the most people.”

I very strongly disagree.

1.) Ben and Andrew have been discussing, in chat and on this website, ways to improve and they have even taken suggestions from former wis.dmer’s and incorporated them into some changes (example: being able to look up all the replies/quips/comments from a person instead of just their questions). They ARE listening! I am under the distinct impression that you want to feel prosecuted.

2.) The Fluther vets ARE the majority here, so if they are setting the standards for compromise (which I DO believe is happening) then they really, truly are satisfying the most people——by keeping most things the way they are to make their largest user-base happy, as well as making changes and accommodations to make us few transfers happy.

But to be honest, MOST of the transfers have been acting like brats, complaining left and right about how this isn’t wis.dm. It’s embarrassing. Maybe you don’t see it because their bad behavior is getting deleted?

(1) I’m not talking about Ben and Andrew. I am talking about the Fluther community as a whole. That being said, in the brief time that I have interacted with Andrew, he has not been welcoming to discussion. Perhaps that is an unfair characterization, but that is my experience.

(2) I do not wish to get into a debate over whether majoritarian vs. consensus models are best.

“MOST of the transfers have been acting like brats, complaining left and right about how this isn’t wis.dm. It’s embarrassing. Maybe you don’t see it because their bad behavior is getting deleted?”

I have witnessed some of this in the form of Please_not_to_ask, Dutchess, Grog, and RealEyesRealizeRealLies. I am not going to speak for them or defend them. I do not think I have acted like they have.

@Ivan Again, I wasn’t there.
So I will try to refrain from speculating.

But I’m also curious as to how you chose
to initiate this open discussion. Did you:
• PM Andrew or Ben
• PM a moderator
• PM a user
• chat room
• pose it as a question to the collective in accordance to guidelines
• pose it as a question to the collective in wis.dm’s Y/N format
• attempt to mask it in a passive-aggressive question
• thread jack / off-topic chatter

One-on-one discussions, while certainly helpful, aren’t necessarily the most desired form of discussion. Ideally the discussion would include as many people as possible. I have attempted this in chat and in relevant questions.

@Ivan Do you really want me to go through all the quips AND your comments in the chat room? Really? You joined on March 22. There are quips and chat comments from March 22 onward with a flurry of complaints and insults. Day #1 and #2 and #3 and so on.

With respect to discussion, how many websites offer that option? Be realistic. Most have a nice contact button where you can send an email to someone you don’t know and never will. Here, you have so many options to personally discuss your issues (as Nimis highlighted). Somehow, this isn’t satisfying to you. You like the “grand stage”, apparently.

Strangely, you take the resistance of the majority to your litany of complaints to be a resistance over discussion. It is not. It is, in fact, a resistance to the content of your complaints (to put it bluntly, the people have spoken and don’t care for your ideas).

First of all, would you like me to review this thread and determine just who is doing the insulting?

Sending an email to some moderator is not open discussion. There are certainly many avenues for open discussion, I am not questioning that. I never said that Fluther rejected open discussion institutionally, I said that Fluther members themselves are resistant to the very notion of discussion.

I have made very, very, very few complaints. If you really think that the small handful of complaints that I have made is a “litany,” then I think you are just proving my point. As I have said, no one has engaged in discussion about my ideas, so they could not possibly have been adequately rejected. No one has resisted to the content of my complaints at all. No one has discussed with me why my ideas are incorrect, etc. They have only told me to shut up. They are resistant to the very idea of my ideas, not the ideas themselves.

“Refraining from insults and retorts
will probably get you better results”

In this thread….
First person to use an obscenity: johnpowell, directed at me.
First person to call people names: johnpowell, directed at several wis.dm members.
First person to use an insult: asmonet, directed at me.
First person to tell someone to leave altogether: johnpowell, directed at me
First person to imply superiority: asmonet, directed at me.
First person to say that someone has a mental illness: mote, directed at me.
First person to tell someone to shut up: eponymoushipster, directed at me.
Total obscenity count: Me: 0, Comments directed at me: 10

As I have continually stated. No one is questioning Ben and Andrew’s authority to do whatever they wish with the site. We are questioning whether it is in Fluther’s best interest to let Ben and Andrew do whatever they wish.

You were not hired as a consultant. You’re questioning their judgment on their baby. How do you see this as your business?

Absolutely not. We do not wish for our “orders to be followed.” We aren’t making orders. We don’t expect or even want Fluther to adhere to our every demand.

“You’re questioning their judgment on their baby. How do you see this as your business?”

You just went a long, long way towards proving my point.

“And for the record, all we do at Fluther is DISCUSS.”

Yes, you discuss other things. But when it comes to Fluther itself, it is a horrible taboo.

“You have approached us with hostility, insults, and accusations.”

This is a complete and utter lie. What a joke. I have continually attempted to be rational and explain my opinions thoroughly. I could have acted like all of you have and merely said STFU and told you to accept it my way or else. But I didn’t do that. I don’t believe in that. I honestly don’t know how you could possibly make these accusations after reading this thread. You are very clearly showcasing selective perception here. You see what you want to see.

@Ivan agh must stop looking at page but i mean come on. Do you read what anyone else says or just write what you feel like. ” I certainly haven’t seen any such threads since I’ve been here. Definitely none that were posed by wis.dm members. Most of those got deleted.” You must have skipped this reply check out that first link….

Has it occurred to you that your are not being ignored? I think people have heard your complaints and suggestions loud and clear- it’s just that no one likes them except you and a small handful of other people.

@Ivan “The very little that I have said has not been greeted with discussion”
Guess why? It’s because we read your complaints and WE DON’T AGREE OR CARE.. People don’t respond to things they don’t care about. I am lost as to how that is confusing.

If you don’t agree, then you should say as much and explain why. If you don’t care, then fine, go on as you would. Instead, many people who don’t care seemingly attack the person bringing up the ideas.

Let’s stop the cyclical arguments. For everyone’s sanity, and my own, let’s stop the bickering. This type of discussion, unfortunately, is neither production nor beneficial to anyone involved. We’ll be removing further back-and-forth after this comment.

@Ivan : I understand your point of view.
But many of the suggestions or improvements that some new members would like to discuss have already been addressed. You as new members couldn’t have known that (being new, baby jellies:)). So that is why some members have suggested searching for older threads where it has already been discussed. {Incidentally, It’s my belief that this is exactly why there are no timestamps. It doesn’t matter how old a thread is. We’re still following it.} It certainly is not your fault that you didn’t know, but for many of us long-timers we have to deal with these issues every time we have a spawning season (do jellies spawn?) and it can raise the temperature of the ocean for some of us. I do think you have been treated with a bit too much aggression from some here. don’t make me point fingers

I think what’s really interesting is what Heretic said. I’ve been stalking over at wis.dm for a few days now, just to get a better angle on where you guys are comming from. Something that’s a bit different there is the way the members talk to each other. There seem to be a few “camps” over there and they can get quite aggressive in discussions. Now, while we do engage in heated debates often here, I think it’s pretty much aggreed that whatever our differences, we really like each other here, almost without exception. So of course any rocking of the boat is going to attract some negative attention. The fluther is tight.

Something else I’d like to discuss while I have everybody’s attention is the mistaken notion that the jellies are somewhat “homogeneous” in idocracy. I think the quip over there that stands out (and I can’t find it now so I’ll paraphrase) is the one that paints us all as middle aged, Christian, conservative, housewives or something like that. I really wish the wis.dm members could have been around during the election. I’d be willing to bet that the majority of the fluther is anything but, but all viewpoints are expressed and encouraged here, even the whack-a-doodle! (the whack’s need no encouragement, believe me:))

To the older jellies: Lighten up. Every influx is going to bring some good and some not so good new members. That’s right! I’m lookin at you PnL! I still blame you for JackAdams.~ LOL!4RL

@jonsblond ha. i didnt write that question, my roomate’s boyfriend did. but when i went to ‘edit it’ i saw all of my other old ass questions that got removed. legit, fun, insightful questions. so i went and read the new ‘policys’ and they now question WHY you ask the questions you do. why should we be questioned on our motives? im just not going to ask questions anymore because they took the fun and light-heartedness out of fluther. and thats FUCKED UP.

I am new here and am still settling in. The standard of questions seems, on the whole, reasonably high, and there seems also to be quite a clear differentiation of questions by serious/light-hearted/advice-seeking purpose.

I only engage in the questions that interest me, so I’m not worried on the whole.

@A_Beaverhausen ive said this quite a few times before, but i cant seem to understand why no one gets this. ITS NOT THE MODS THAT GO AROUND JUST TAKING STUFF DOWN. We flag shit. We tell them what we dont like, and we tell them what we find inappropriate for fluther. Its not the mods that didnt like your questions, its fluther as a whole. It wasnt following the guidelines so it was taken down for good reason.

I must say to complain about moderation because YOU fucked up is well kind of fucked up.