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Thank you Ron. This would go a long way into framing the issues if these questions were addressed AND we kept on the topic based on the framework that was offered! Gotta get rid of all the emotional talk, ego, and semantics.

I was just wondering, do you talk like that in person (the the "thingy" thing)?

Yes we do, whether some realize it or not. There's all kinds of examples of competition all around us, one just has to notice.

Clarence I was hoping for something more substancial here to discuss in your reply.

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There goes that "thingy" thing again. What's up with that? Once again (for the 3rd or 4th time), you're talking about biological evolution, which applies to all things in Nature. That's different than the evolution that I'm talking about, which also applies to Aikido , which is the Industrial evolution, which can happen in a matter of weeks or overnight and applies to most all things not occuring in Nature. Now, since the pinciples of Aikido are based on Natural Principles, then it falls under the "Natural biological evolution" and those will have to evolve naturally, but all other things in Aikido can be evolved much sooner.

I don't really like to go here, but, I am confused by you here, and not on a surface level. As far as I see it, and explained it, you can't evolve Aikido. Only the person who does Aikido evolves to understand it. And that is why I use the biological sense. In fact, I the String theory is better for Aikido, as it is an evolved theory.

Quote:

Wow, sounds like you're as cynical as House and you may be right about everyone's roles( on House), that takes nothing away from the fact that the statement is absolutely true.-"If it wasn't for competition, we'd all still be single cell organisms."

Cynical as the character and just as brilliant. As far as competition that is how we see it. Does the cells see it as such? Or is that what is really happening? As far as Aikido, Aikido flourished successfully under the philosophy of non-competition. Competition will also render a species extinct. Cooperation is over looked as unevolved people don't see that. Well because that is people see what they want to see.

Aikido evolved from violence (warring arts) to peace (self-defense/spiritual exercise). Mirroring the political science adage, from swords to plowshares. A society evolves from warring states to...well the rest of the stuff you know.

Evolution applied to Aikido isn't really something important to learning or mastering Aikido. Again it is the person who starts a new student and through time develops understanding of principles and thought that are reflected as skill, and character. It is that type of thingy that Aikido is about. That is a fact.

Not only does this sound right, sport was long seen as a way of training the young for war. Many games develop rules that highlight things like teamwork, sacrifice, etc.

My understanding as a Yank has been that the British in the heyday of the Empire saw sport as positive because it prepared the children of the elite to become officers -- Someone who knows --does that sound right?

DH

Agreed Dave great points, in fact your insight tiggers the Spartans and their culture, and even the Samurai (??) to add to your list. Great minds like alike

My point is that he advises to "step in (and cut)" even without an opening. Not only is that not martially sound, but isn't that the very scenario we train for? Don't we hope our opponent "steps in " without an opening? Imo, that's bad advice and a point of evolution.

Sure if you are taking it literally and without high degree of understanding. He is talking in poetic form. And with any poetic form there are levels of understand written it. I first thought like you, but after years of study in Aikido and other knowledge I came to realize the emphasis isn't on the literal. He is talking about right action. But that isn't all, also it is about strategy on many levels. Going beyond the impossible, or doing the impossible, it is determination to succeed where it doesn't seem you can. I hate to quote O'Sensei, but I think he said he learned Budo from his teacher who fought in many life and death situations, and was a fighter-violent, killing enemies. There then must be some credibility to what he is saying.

I respect that you've taken a position, and I'm not trying to change your mind. DH

Dave, you'll not change my mind (especially the way you're going about it), but I think I see the problem we're having here( And I'm a man of few words- which reminds me of a joke- a man meets a woman in a bar and they decide to go home together and he says,"I'm a man of few words" and she says,"Your place or mine?" and he says,"Well if your'e gonna argue about it, forget it").

You're recognizing things that're similar and concluding that they must be the same, but they're not. I explained this in an earlier post, but I'll go over it again here( and believe it or not, I'm not trying to be condescending{well, maybe alittle}).
We are dealing with two different evolutionary processes, but neither are social. The two we're dealing with are Biological (Natural) and industrial. The reason we're dealing with the biological evolutionary process is because Aikido is based on Natural principles of Physics( motion and force), which put that part of evolution in Aikido in the biological evolutionary process.( Now, I ask here that there's folks out there defying Physics, so is that an evolution of Physics?), BUT, there's alot of other parts of Aikido that's NOT about the priciples of Physics, that has to do with the other things, but which puts it in the Industrial evolutionary process,which can be imporved upon immediately. Did you get all that?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

The evolutionary model is one applied to different areas like, law, Aikido, industry, etc. That model applied to differ areas or fields doesn't change the model of evolution which was created from Darwin's observation of the natural living world. It doesn't matter the field we apply evolution to, the theory keeps its useful, staying the same.

Like I said, let's talk String theory instead of evolution for Aikido, as String theory is the evolved theory. Aikido is physics, and not evolution.

Lee Smolin (born 1955 in New York City) is an American theoretical physicist, a researcher at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, and an adjunct professor of physics at the University of Waterloo.

Smolin is best known for devising several different approaches to quantum gravity, in particular loop quantum gravity. He advocates that the two primary approaches to quantum gravity, loop quantum gravity and string theory, can be reconciled ****

Smolin's most famous suggestion may be his theory of fecund universes, also known as cosmological natural selection, which attempts to apply principles of biological evolution to cosmology, suggesting that universes evolve in favor of the production of black holes."

Sure if you are taking it literally and without high degree of understanding. He is talking in poetic form. And with any poetic form there are levels of understand written it. I first thought like you, but after years of study in Aikido and other knowledge I came to realize the emphasis isn't on the literal. He is talking about right action. But that isn't all, also it is about strategy on many levels. Going beyond the impossible, or doing the impossible, it is determination to succeed where it doesn't seem you can. I hate to quote O'Sensei, but I think he said he learned Budo from his teacher who fought in many life and death situations, and was a fighter-violent, killing enemies. There then must be some credibility to what he is saying.

Really, we are way past the usefulness of this discussion.

Ok,so let me try and understand you.....
OK, stop the presses, Phil knows the intent of all of Osensei's words. We can stop wondering and guessing now. What a relief!
Poetic form? Funny, nothing rhymes (but I reckon Japanese poetry doesn't rhyme,right?)
Right action? So, poetically the right action is to, without an opening, "step in and cut", but not really?
Succeeding where you (seemingly) can't? Marines know all about that( too many campaigns to mention here), but they also know, still, there's a fine line between being smart and being stupid. Stupid gets you killed and even at the most basic level, attacking when there's no opening, will most probably get you killed.

Btw, I'll not argue the point that there's alot of credibility/meaning to what Osensei (even tho I may take issue with some of it) said, alas, I'm afraid you don't have a clue about it.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-27-2008 at 08:30 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

Not only being unfair, it shows the character and depth of the individual. People can get emotional and have strong feelings about what they believe, and that can get personal and heated with great passion. But in this case, the individual choose personal attacks in the absence of any substantial response. I don't think he could argue string theory and how it relates to Aikido. Or realize that the evolutionary model applied to any field, is still the same evolutionary model. He argued differently. But this kind of stuff he wrote really has no weight up the discussion. I just scratch my head, and think he feels defeated as a motive for his behavior while moving on.

Btw, String theory has been shot down as self defeating theorum( plus, it's all about gravity, which has nothing to do with the evolution of Aikido):
"Like any other quantum theory of gravity, it is widely believed that testing the theory experimentally would be prohibitively expensive, requiring feats of engineering on a solar-system scale. Although some critics concede that string theory is falsifiable in principle, they maintain that it is unfalsifiable for the foreseeable future, and so should not be called science."

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman