Watching a lot of Vet's Day things on TV, and just thinking about other military history instances, and then seeing the cover of the latest "Empire" Comic... I had a thought.

Does anyone think there could be "Home Guard" Divisions of Imperial Troops comprised of the species native to any specific planet?

Perhaps not decked out in Stormtrooper armor like the character on the comic's cover, but perhaps in the Army Regular uniform like the AT-ST Driver's, or some such?

The German army utilized special divisions made up of foreign soldiers during World War II. Actually many of the troops defending the Atlantic Wall at Normandy were not German or Axis power nationals but were rather people drafted from countries taken by Germany/Italy.

This trend is common in warfare though... A series I love on the Military Channel is on Tuesdays and it's simply about World War I. It's amazing to see the diversity of troops "drafted" by other countries. Africans in German uniforms were something I considered, or there was an African French division that actually fought IN France during World War I, drafted from French colonies in Africa.

It made me wonder if the Empire would resort to a Neimoidian division... Or other species that aren't declared "hostile" maybe, like I couldn't see a Wookiee division (based on my own opinion of Wookiee's during the Classic Trilogy Era being almost like Jews under the thumb of the Axis powers), but like I could see species that are either indifferent to the Empire or who serve the Empire in some capacity being assimilated into the Imperial military, but still being kept separate entirely of what the Empire considers its main military body.

Any opinions on this? For customizers, that could make some REALLY cool custom options... Like a Neimoidian in an Imperial uniform... Maybe even a Neimoidian Liason Officer... I could even see them being given "human" CO's as a means of watching them... akin to the black regiments during the American Civil War who were commanded by white Officers.

The concept of a xenophobic EMpire is a really EU based idea though with little rooting in anything but that one Officer's line which was pretty "broad". Originally it was written in that Luke was sort of "awed" by the sight of Chewbacca actually, and acted alittle less than politically correct.

However, the point stands I think that the German Army in WW2 utilized people from nations it considered hostile... France, Holland, Balkan Nations, etc., etc...

The way I look at it then is that while the Germans would not have accepted a Jew into their ranks, the Empire wouldn't accept certain species into theirs... Wookiees for example. Many were viewed with disdain and hatred, and really all alien species weren't viewed with any level of comradery, but the Empire would've needed cooperation from some alien worlds I think... Actually I think the majority of worlds would've supported the EMpire on one level or another for any number of reasons... From corruption and political backscratching to actually appreciating the budding Empire's ideals. The Senate is really loud in support of Palpatine's declaration of political change, so the alien support is there...

I view the xenophobic nature of the Empire then as something subdued. Something the core members of the Empire harbor in hopes of someday eradicating the aliens from their lives. They blame the Aliens for this or that (it'd be easy to blame them for the Clone Wars even), and the Empire lets that hatred grow, but only in noteably human circles. IE: they're covering it up a lot, but within the Imperial core organizations there is open anti-alien sentiment... Recruitment of humans is key/reinforced, etc., etc...

At the same time though, they utilize Aliens in an effort to create an IMperial-controlled military on specific planets (Say Nemoidia just for kicks), and the Neimoidian government maybe is a puppet government that supports the Empire... Empire exploits Nemoidia, but at the same time they control the governing bodies/military and the Neimoidians aren't necessarilly mistreated either so they accept the Imperial rule and are generally happy to do so... Empire keeps Neimoidians working, keeps order and structure... They accept it with perhaps only a small splinter group wanting to resist (but which, like all rebel cells on all planets, is rooted out as best as the Imperial military can). If the resistance grows the Military presence of more "traditional" Imperial troops may be called in but if the natural population can handle it they're let do so...

It's a pretty common thing in Earth terms throughout history but there's a problem when discussing alien worlds/people because they obviously don't look like humans (at least in SW terms).

I think it could definitely have happened... I think it actually would've been common and necessary. It would've been "the norm" for the majority of the worlds within the core where rebelliion wasn't as widespread perhaps.

And while the Empire exploits some worlds/people that way, they also have more brutal instances such as the WOokiee situation where they control that species with martial law, enslavement, etc.

The thing about the Empire, even though I've always viewed them as incredibly powerful and really capable of military subjucation across the galaxy, they still have to have some means of control through manipulation of each government on each planet... Some will openly support the Empire, some will reluctantly support the Empire, some will openly rebel, some will quietly rebel... I think the majority, based on the roars of the Senate in E3, are supportive on one level or another, so they don't need a firm hand to control them, but rather their people need somehow assimilated.

The whole thing really comes down to the complexities/logistics of galactic control/conquest. It's really pretty mind-boggling to think about. The idea that the Empire is totally xenophobic and shuns alien races just doesn't make sense to me though. There has to be some kind of diplomacy even if it isn't sincere... Stormies aren't eradicating species on the streets of Mos Eisley afterall so they're not TOO xenophobic. They need the aliens even if they hate them.

If you want to draw on even other instances, the Jewish populations of ghetto's and camps in WW2 were even organized into controllable societies by the Nazi's. And there were people pulled from the population to work for the Nazi's, even though it was obviously not that they were being assimilated into the German culture of the time... They were led to believe they were at times though. (Not to demean the subject matter of the holocaust, of course, but rather just in an effort to cite historical precedent respectfully for the discussion)

Very interesting points, Jesse. Obviously you're a war buff, because you make very valid analogies between experiences in the past here with likely events in the SW galaxy.

I think that control of a planet by the Empire can be done in very different ways. Like you mentioned, there's the very obvious techniques for direct control like enslavement of the Wookiees. In this case they likely would have used Stormtroopers to exert their very visual domination.

But more often I think their techniques would have been much more subtle. To do that, I'm sure they would have needed local militias comprised of natives to do this. As with any democracy, sometimes smaller regions (or less populated planets) are unfortunately ignored despite being in need. If the Empire could walk in and correct one problem (for example, widespread hunger), I'm sure the Empire would receive vocal support. (We saw this often in the Clone Wars comics). Once they received the initial support, they'd maintain control through the local governments (and militias to back them up by suppressing resistance).

If you want to draw on even other instances, the Jewish populations of ghetto's and camps in WW2 were even organized into controllable societies by the Nazi's.

the jewish administration has always been a tricky subject, but it was easier for the german war machine to have jews watch over other jews (the same kapos did in camps)

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The concept of a xenophobic EMpire is a really EU based idea though with little rooting in anything but that one Officer's line which was pretty "broad". Originally it was written in that Luke was sort of "awed" by the sight of Chewbacca actually, and acted alittle less than politically correct.

don't forget that luke is supposed to be everyone who is watching the movie, like in fairy tales it's the character you can identify to. he was "awed" as any of us would be if he met such a wonderful creature

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However, the point stands I think that the German Army in WW2 utilized people from nations it considered hostile... France, Holland, Balkan Nations, etc., etc...

the divisions made of soldiers from conquished countries are an interesting feature of the WW2 history, obviously the german needed them badly since the beginning of operation Barbarossa against USSR (as well as the involvement of the US in the War). You'll notice these troops were only used in eastern Europe and Russia not in Africa. However they came from countries with deep antisemite or fascists beliefs (Croatia, France, Holland...). Most of the time the troops were considered aryans but some other time the german would use salvic soldiers (rather unusual when you consider them inferior) like croats or ukrainian.

I don't think the Empirasuffered the same difficulties as the 3rd reich, it didn't have to fight a foreign coalition, just a rebellion.

local militias and fear (remember the EU rule of fear developped by tarkin in WEG RPG books ?) would keep the systems in line, if not they could still send a stormtrooper garrisson or a couple starships

wow some very good points. i've recently got into the wwii/holocaust history jj you seem right on with this. the whole xenophobic thing the EU started up with is a bunch of crap in my opinion. it seems by the end of ROTS the republic army is streched pretty thin, and pre clone wars each planet or gigantic business seemed to have their own army in place since there was no real republic army till this piont. i could picture each planet having their own home guard with a garrison of some sort of imperials. but slowly i could figure that once the clone wars were finally mopped up and they began pumping out more clones without hundreds perhaps thousands being killed in a war on a regular basis and began gaining recruits home guards i think would eventually begin to fade out. the reason being Palpy wouldn't want military competition and revolts happening all over the place backed by a world militia. he'd want each and every world within the empire to be in his grasp, ie the death star.

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the jewish administration has always been a tricky subject, but it was easier for the german war machine to have jews watch over other jews (the same kapos did in camps)

I agree, and that same concept translates to aliens... The Imperial War machine, even though I consider it vast and almost unimaginable, wouldn't have had as easy a time managing aliens on every inhabited planet... On many, especially more docile worlds or ones that support the Empire (regardless of potential xenophobic ideals), I envision the Empire utilizing the populace to manage themselves militarily. Perhaps human/core Imperial control over those "homeguard" divisions... Someone to make sure the homeguard isn't developing a resistance, and obviously propoganda would be important, but subjucating every world on a "personal" level would be difficult even for an Empire that I think has military might beyond comprehension (for us in the real world anyway ).

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don't forget that luke is supposed to be everyone who is watching the movie, like in fairy tales it's the character you can identify to. he was "awed" as any of us would be if he met such a wonderful creature

I disagree that Luke is to be the "every man". He has a more defined role as a sheltered farmboy in my eyes which doesn't represent myself... It really doesn't represent the views of anyone but that one segment. Lucas's development of Luke was based a little on himself at points, but he says there's some of him in Han Solo too, etc...

The text I referred to though, with Luke being sorta dumbstruck by Chewbacca, had Luke almost being enamored with Chewie as if he were a freak of nature... He ogled him like he was a sideshow attraction. It's a minor point I think, but one that I figured I'd bring up... Luke didn't act like that in the film, but I think the reason stands that some people look on aliens with disgust out of natural reaction. It's the same reason that the aliens in the Cantina sequence sorta shocked fans, and was amusing too. Some you look on with disgust (as the Imp Officer looked at Chewbacca) while some you don't... Some you're afraid of and some you warm up to.

Perhaps the Wookiees were bastardized due to their helping Yoda escape too... It may not be so much a blanket hatred of species but just the ones that "defied" the Empire. Much as one may look down on the Neimoidians if they saw them, or perhaps the Quarren... They maybe don't hate aliens, just aliens that are also their enemy... But that's just thinking aloud really on my part. Overall I do tend to view the Empire as being xenophobic, but able to hide it to some degree...

They cover it up with citing these species they choose to blatantly hold under their thumb as being traitorous ones (IE: Wookiee's). Other species, like for argument's sake the Neimoidians, are accepted into the EMpire but don't serve directly in the Imperial war machine per se, but they do have a home guard division comprised of JUST Neimoidian Troops in an Imperial Army uniform perhaps, and with a command structure that has maybe some Neimoidians on lower level command positions, but which has higher command positions being held by key officials that hold the Imperial ideal in the utmost regard... The "Heidrich The Hangman" of the Empire, for example... And of course a completely loyal regional governor at the top.

But still, that leaves us with a Neimoidian division who maybe consider themselves, are told, and they accept, that they're part of the Empire... Are they going to be backing up a Stormtrooper legion that's spearheading the attack on Yavin Base? Never, but they're there keeping the peace on Neimoidia and perhaps surrounding places like any orbital bases, moons, or perhaps neighboring planets colonized by the Neimoidians.

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the divisions made of soldiers from conquished countries are an interesting feature of the WW2 history, obviously the german needed them badly since the beginning of operation Barbarossa against USSR (as well as the involvement of the US in the War). You'll notice these troops were only used in eastern Europe and Russia not in Africa. However they came from countries with deep antisemite or fascists beliefs (Croatia, France, Holland...). Most of the time the troops were considered aryans but some other time the german would use salvic soldiers (rather unusual when you consider them inferior) like croats or ukrainian.

Those divisions also saw action in the west though, and Italy/south as well... Africa was so early into the war (it was the point where the German leaders who were competent really started to break and realize they weren't the all-dominant force they believed themselves to be), that it wasn't an issue to draft different nation's conquered male population into their military.

At the same time though, not all analogies to WW2 match to SW perfectly, but it stands to reason that a "galaxy of a million million worlds" as SW is described, would find some logistics issues in how you control these worlds effectively and efficiently, while still maintaining a balanced economy, civil tranquility, etc... Basically the Empire would be forced to pick its battles. It needed the Death Star afterall because it seems (by context within the film) that the Emperor was playing a juggling act with the existing Imp. Senate and the Regional governors... He had to keep everyone happy and I'm sure that was tough... If the galaxy broke out in revolution everywhere, he'd have trouble. As it was he was dealing with a Rebellion that he considered small but which I'm sure was only small by galactic standards... And obviously by ROTJ's end and various EU sources, the Alliance is a formidable military itself... Only small compared to the Imperial war machine.

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I don't think the Empirasuffered the same difficulties as the 3rd reich, it didn't have to fight a foreign coalition, just a rebellion.

Again, that's something that's looked at from a certain POV though, as Obi-Wan would say... How big the Alliance is, is definitely debateable. Personally I look at it as being incredibly big, but smaller than the Empire by a substantial bit...

At the same time though, the Empire deals with civil unrest on many worlds, which isn't something the Reich would have to have dealt with exactly, but they were known for having control over the populations of their conquered nations by utilizing those populations to control themselves... The French for instance, the Poles, etc... Not part of the 3rd reich, but a political/police body did control the population that answered to the local "garrison" or detail in the given nation or area. The Empire could, and I believe would, utilize similar methods of controlling planets... If the Empire felt they needed to eradicate a given species, they could easily then create whatever reason they wanted and do so, but doing that with millions of worlds at once would incite rebellion from wolds where cooperation was a necessity I believe.

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local militias and fear (remember the EU rule of fear developped by tarkin in WEG RPG books ?) would keep the systems in line, if not they could still send a stormtrooper garrisson or a couple starships

That's what I'm saying basically, but the militias are part of the Empire for reason of assimilation/conformity. Those species will never gain much in life outside of what they manage on their planet... The Empire still is xenophobic and there's no advancement among aliens within the political structure of the Empire. But at the same aliens would be used to control their own planets, with of course close supervision of Imperial supervisors of one form or another...

And as species were deemed uncontrollable, or were just unlucky enough to be "liquidated" for their planetary assets, the Empire would simply dismantle these species through whatever means... Enslavement for the Wookiees as in the EU, for example of a slow means of extermination of that species... And of course other species would suffer that kind of fate for whatever reason...

Tarkin's doctrine of fear is an EU property but I like it... However the problem with his fear doctrine is that a large component was his development of the Death Star project. The fear was mostly circled around that instrument... Without it, simply beating planets into submission seems impossible. If it were possible the EMperor wouldn't have bothered with an Imperial Senate, with a beuacratic system, etc., as is established in the film. ANH makes it pretty clear thought that control is this constant juggling act for Palpatine, not something he simply has because he has an army that can crush anything. It was a juggling act to get it in the prequals and maintaining it would require lots of back scratching to make sure he has support.

Without the Death Star, the Emperor would have to go back to that juggling act and Tarkin's fear doctrine would partly fall apart (I think it still has some application, and probably is a main component considering a 2nd DS was in production) and Palpatine would still have to control that peace at least in his core worlds. But with the DS's emergence into the public, and it's subsequent destruction, it's also quite probable that rebellion would've started to spread quicker than ever... Worlds would get word of the DS and what it did, and that's a PR nightmare for the Empire... planets who had any suspicions of Palpatine's behaviors/motives would almost certainly now fear for their well-being and would fight or support those who do secretly.

This has been a good discussion guys... I'm inspired to make some customs just based on this talk really. I've had this Neimoidian in an AT-ST Drive runiform in my head now for a couple weeks, haha. Could be a great custom.

this topic is really cool, it feels nice to discuss militaray and political POVs about the SW universe,

i must say i'm not sure about the Luke's statement : imho he's supposed to be our key to access the mysteries of the saga (young man discovering a much bigger universe he has long dreamt of) but the droids share this role too (like in the Hidden Fortress)

The EMPIRE- that's what it is. Itsa Top down organization led by emperor Palpatine. When you're top down every one reflects the leader's(palp) view or you're out(likely eliminated). Since Palpatine despised non Human species this is the reason for they're lack thereof in his organization. You cannot count Thrawn- this was Post OTC/expanded universe.

I believe the planets didn't have alot of imperial forces on them- if they did however they would be alien local turncoats in their own attire or large clone imperial human legions.

A thought? How about the Imperials controlled trade routes/airspace with a massive navy. Kind of like saying...you(you're planet) can't do what you want (trade/travel/receive ect)without our consent because we have you by the balls.

The galactic Empire IS the government. We know there is still a senate because it is mentioned in ANH. We know it's weak and powerless. We can also ensure that any dissention from systems opposing the emperor resulted in disintegrations/embargoes ect. Rules like this can last over a considerable period of time. In real life we seen long rules like this with Roman Empire, Chinese Dynasties, Egyptian rulers, Hitler(well,shorter) ect. The difference is SW is on a larger scale a Galaxy scale to be exact.

The Emperor was sooo arrogant that I don't believe he would allow a turncoat alien org to wear his uniforms. Had he, rulership on planets it be his men(human) in empire attire or aliens wearing their own **** taking orders from imperal officers ect.

Just can't see the Emperor allowing any alien to wear an imperial uniform-not under Palp's rule anyway.

Is this actually true? It's easy to assume that, but there's really no mention of that in any of the movies. I'm not saying it's not true, but is there an occurrence of this in the movies of which I'm not aware?

Is this actually true? It's easy to assume that, but there's really no mention of that in any of the movies. I'm not saying it's not true, but is there an occurrence of this in the movies of which I'm not aware?

His "Major Domo" Mas Amedda and his closest aides where non-humans, where they not?

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What the political make-up of the Empire is during the Civil War and during its early years (and pre-years of the Clone Wars) could vary though... No real evidence of a xenophobic state is in the films though Jesse, to answer your question, aside from the "This Thing" comment by an Imperial Officer on the Death Star and the fact you don't see any aliens anywhere...

At the same time, you don't see any in the Alliance till ROTJ, and Leia called Chewbacca a walking carpet, so is she really not a speciesist individual herself? Seems derogatory to me.

The EU's perpetuated the notion of a xenophobic Empire... Which isn't to say it couldn't be that way. The Separatists were predominantly alien species with one agenda or another... Their corporate conglomerates could be viewed much the way Jews were viewed and persecuted after World War I as having a stranglehold on the world's economy, nation's banks, etc... People could have had a highly negative view of aliens, and Imperial Propoganda could have helped spur that notion among humans, and even among some alien races.

Myself, I think that any hatred of species was kept within the Empire's higher levels... It was sort of something engrained in officers, the Empire tried to keep all outside species at a glass ceiling they couldn't rise above whereas the true power positions could only be held by humans. Military would be strictly segregated and the real fighting body kept human while the proposed idea of this thread ("Home Guard" or Planetary militias controlled by the Empire and only assimilated into the Imperial military machine to a certain extent) would be kept more or less on a leash to control these species effectively and efficiently by using their own people.

Some planets, and some species would require direct subjucation by Imperial military might, while others, especially those who support the Empire for one reason or another and either are ignorant or turn a blind eye to the perceived "speciesism" attittudes of the Empire, are easily controlled because they almost WANT to be controlled and be an accepted part of what they think is a better world (or galaxy in this case).

It's like the end of ROTS shows... Liberty dies to thunderous applause. The Empire was hardly an unpopular movement... Palpatine had manipulated events, twisted the truth... He'd turned the Jedi into the bad guys, and that now there'd be peace and prosperity. I think the majority would love and support this. I think some would see through it, and Lucas kind of established that with the Petition of 2000, but they're the vast minority. Most, even aliens, accept the Empire I think... Where the xenophobic state of affairs comes into play? That's anyone's guess. It could be at the onset with political doctrines like the Tarkin Doctrine being formed, and maybe just select people know of this and support it, or it could be just something subtle right up to the Empire's very end. Tough to say, and really up to the individual to decide.

I've always believed that the Empire became increasingly xenophobic as its power grew. Palpatine's aides cannot be used as proof that he wasn't xenophobic, either. Palpatine could have hired them on for the purpose of a clear defense, "Hey, my top aides are aliens... I'm not racist!" Consider the fact that from Revenge of the Sith to Return of the Jedi, Palpatine's Dignataries and Aides go from entirely alien to entirely human.

His alien aides, at least the two I know of, had gifts of perception that supposedly helped Palpatine read/influence other people's minds, or something to that effect. So he had his reasons.

It's not the only case of Palpatine using an alien race, either. Spies like Garindan and Prince Xizor's lot were used from time to time behind the scenes. The Noghri acted under the Empire's command, too. Some non-humans even made it into the Empire's direct command - well, at least Grand Admiral Thrawn did.

Still, though - the eery similarities between the Nazis and Empire leads me to believe that the Empire was, in eventuallity, going to step it up a notch in extremism. With a series of Death Stars in the works, the Empire would have no problem "cleaning up the universe"...

Just by looking at the different species in the Alliance, as opposed to the purely white male Empire, you can assume something is going on, there.

Much like the Nazis, I believe the Empire probably had entire Divisions of non-Humans who, for some reason, believed in the Empire's Xenophobic Doctrine (if there is such a thing). During WW2, there were several SS groups composed of non-Germans, so whose to say that there weren't a Division or two of full blooded Imperials who weren't human?

Germany alligned with Italy and Japan, so whose to say the Empire's fighting force didn't consist of a small percentage of Twi-Lek, Rodians, Quarren, Chiss, Nikto, etc?