Shai Hulud's album That Within Blood Ill-Tempered is more metal than most metal and it practically defines metalcore. I'm not going to bother explaining how technically bizarre the structures are or how expertly composed the melodies prove, because it would sound like hyperbole to anyone who hasn't heard it. I will say that it is an album that maintains every musically creative aspect of the better death metal bands (lyrics included), it is just presented with (mostly) tonal and melodic guitar playing.

That it throws in some metal riffs doesn't distract from its basic inattention to reality and thus, rather boring personal drama that I don't care about.

We are not hive - yet you use blanket statements that imply a hivemind way of thinking.

Choose your words carefully lest you wind up entangled in them.

I agree with you - mostly. There have been some quality bands in this genre of pointlessness mentioned here in this thread. If you choose to investigate, and do not like them, fine. If you like them, great! But condemning without investigation is an error. Look for the silver lining, it's always there somewhere even if it is very small.

That it throws in some metal riffs doesn't distract from its basic inattention to reality and thus, rather boring personal drama that I don't care about.

So where exactly do you find this Line of No Return that divides music between "metal" and "rock"? Is the Line in the lyrical subject matter? And what is it about the lyrical subject matter then? Is it lyrics referencing non-egotistic, inhuman subjects? In that case, what specifically separates spacey prog-rock lyrics from death metal? The level of aggression, violence, or menace projected? I'd like some clarification just because I appreciate your commentary and I find myself drawing all sorts of unhelpful conclusions from tangential logic.

I agree with you - mostly. There have been some quality bands in this genre of pointlessness mentioned here in this thread. If you choose to investigate, and do not like them, fine. If you like them, great! But condemning without investigation is an error. Look for the silver lining, it's always there somewhere even if it is very small.

Horse shit.

The design of some approaches to problem solving are inherently broken and there's no need to pursue them.

Why not explore coprophagic nouvelle cuisine? Maybe some of it is good.

Like certain political philosophies (Marxism, for example) the fundamental tenets of nu-core's design philosophy are stupid, and therefore the best result it can hope for it so mediate its own stupid in some entertaining way.

I agree with you - mostly. There have been some quality bands in this genre of pointlessness mentioned here in this thread. If you choose to investigate, and do not like them, fine. If you like them, great! But condemning without investigation is an error. Look for the silver lining, it's always there somewhere even if it is very small.

Horse shit.

The design of some approaches to problem solving are inherently broken and there's no need to pursue them.

Why not explore coprophagic nouvelle cuisine? Maybe some of it is good.

Like certain political philosophies (Marxism, for example) the fundamental tenets of nu-core's design philosophy are stupid, and therefore the best result it can hope for it so mediate its own stupid in some entertaining way.

Why not find the good in K-pop instead? It's more valid as a genre.

OK, first off, tone it down.

Second, simply because the fundamental tenants of a particular thing are flawed does not necessarily mean that every aspect of said thing is flawed. Find the useful/good in everything, and promote/support it. If there is no good in it (like that cuisine), then disregard it. Nu-core (whatever that term means, it seems much too general to apply to a specific genre) seems to encompass a lot. If metalcore is included in this general term, we have already proven that there are good metalcore bands, so you are incorrect.

Third: you say we are not a hivemind, but then you expect me to agree with you that just because it's rock music (which is generally shit), it's not worth exploring? As if the opinion just goes without saying? I do believe The Doors, Genesis, and a select few other rock bands (supported by this site, no less) achieve a level of quality comparable with some of the best metal. You're tangled up good.

Finally, your attempt at insulting wit in the last sentence fails. I want a discussion, not internet shit flinging. Keep that in mind before you spew out whatever pops into your head onto the keyboard.

Attitudes like that do little good for this site, or metal in general.

As if the opinion just goes without saying? I do believe The Doors, Genesis, and a select few other rock bands (supported by this site, no less) achieve a level of quality comparable with some of the best metal.

I disagree. The point of nu-core being rock music is that it's not metal, yet impersonates metal. If it doesn't impersonate metal, like the Doors, there's no problem with it.

Finally, your attempt at insulting wit in the last sentence fails. I want a discussion, not internet shit flinging. Keep that in mind before you spew out whatever pops into your head onto the keyboard.

You're reading something into it that isn't there. And you sound rather angry.

You single out one part which may not be flawed, and then assume all parts aren't flawed. Did I say that? No. I said that some parts may not be flawed.

"This misunderstands "good." Good means a design of intelligence; when a genre steps outside of that, there's nothing good there."

You define good with a safe, general definition. What is a design of intelligence to you? Many argue here that Deicide is good; I argue against that. Intelligent people can have different (but yet valid) views on what is good. I'm just trying to cull your standards out of you to make recommendations for music you might like, not start an argument.

"And yet it all shares a similarity: it's rock/post-hardcore with some metal riffs, which wishes to impersonate metal and thus replace it

I don't think these bands/musicians are consciously doing this, do you? I think they're all just morons who don't know any better. Ignorance, not intended hostile takeover. Still annoying and gets in the way of good metal though.

"Like what? You named a behavior, not an attitude."

Well then that behavior is flawed, I chose my words poorly. My point still stands.

But let's cease this bickering, there's no point to it. This is a community here, we're supposed to give each other a hand. You want to know some good metalcore albums? Here's a few for ya - take them or leave them. (Apologies as I can't post Youtube links at the moment, laptop is on its last legs)

Integrity - Those Who Fear Tomorrow and Systems Overload

Today is the Day - In The Arms of God and Kiss The Pig

(ANUS labeled this band metalcore, not sure if I agree but....)Discordance Axis - anything, but particularly Jouhou and The Inalienable Dreamless

If you like Discordance Axis I recommend checking out Gridlink too, grindcore; both of their albums are good, with Orphan being my slight favorite.

Rorschach - Protestant

I have found lasting value in these albums. They've passed the "5 year test", as I've had each of them for at least 5 years, and I still come back to them. Are they on the level of Altars of Madness or Consuming Impulse? Not quite, but then neither is Splenium For Nyktophobia or Close To A World Below; still great records. Hope you enjoy, or at least relate your thoughts.

Humanicide, nothing personal, but comparing the albums you mentioned, on any charitable application of inter-subjective musical standards (compositional depth, emotional depth, maturity) to Close To A World Below is worse than comparing The Black Album to Dark Side of the Moon (which KirK from Metallica has done, to his eternal stupidity)

You single out one part which may not be flawed, and then assume all parts aren't flawed. Did I say that? No. I said that some parts may not be flawed.

That's not true. Here's your original statement:

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Second, simply because the fundamental tenants of a particular thing are flawed does not necessarily mean that every aspect of said thing is flawed. Find the useful/good in everything, and promote/support it. If there is no good in it (like that cuisine), then disregard it.

If there is no good in it, disregard it. But if there's any good in it, keep it. That's the summary of that paragraph. And so I say: nuclear holocaust kills mosquitoes.

Keep it!

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Intelligent people can have different (but yet valid) views on what is good.

Valid doesn't mean anything.

The question is "accurate."

I don't agree at all here, as you know.

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I don't think these bands/musicians are consciously doing this, do you? I think they're all just morons who don't know any better.

Does it matter? (And yes, I think most are doing it consciously; at least, that's what they say in interviews.)

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Ignorance, not intended hostile takeover. Still annoying and gets in the way of good metal though.

Who cares what their intent is?

Intent?

Look at results. Again with the valid/intent-versus-reality/results dichotomy that seems inherent to your viewpoint.

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You want to know some good metalcore albums? Here's a few for ya - take them or leave them.

I would like the complete list, so that discussion can proceed. Let's look at the best of the genre, and see what it has to offer.

If we don't have a complete list, we all know what will happen. "But you didn't consider..."

Integrity - Those Who Fear Tomorrow and Systems OverloadToday is the Day - In The Arms of God and Kiss The PigDiscordance Axis - anything, but particularly Jouhou and The Inalienable DreamlessGridlinkRorschach - Protestant

A starter list.

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Are they on the level of Altars of Madness or Consuming Impulse? Not quite, but then neither is Splenium For Nyktophobia or Close To A World Below; still great records.

Also what a silly argument with the nuclear holocaust thing. Obviously in this particular case you can pick and choose the good, disregarding the bad. This is exactly the same as what we all do with metal music, so why exactly doesnt it extend to metalcore? That said, out of that list I have only heard Today Is The Day and Integrity and I can safely say that while good they dont hold up at all to the best metal, by a wide margin.

death-metal, that list is complete insofar as that's pretty much all of the metalcore I have, haha. If others would like to contribute, feel free. By the way Gridlink isn't metalcore - I just mentioned them because they are associated with Discordance Axis and have some of their tendencies. The music is grindcore though.

"But if there's any good in it, keep THE GOOD PARTS."

That's what I meant. Don't keep the whole thing, just keep what is good.

"(And yes, I think most are doing it consciously; at least, that's what they say in interviews.)"

Could you cite a particular example? I'd like to know who to avoid. Honestly man I think you give too much credit to them, heh.

"Is Close to a World Below closer to AOM than these?"

I would favor Discordance Axis more than CTAWB, but I think that album is better than every other metalcore band I mentioned. Could be my preference for grindcore though; DA is very grindy (to the point where I don't know why ANUS classes them as metalcore).

Their first album is a mishmash of songs with a cool riff or two but that are ultimately unrelated - lacks direction. "Legion" is the sole respectable work from the band, and even though my personal preference says that album is overrated, I can acknowledge its contributions to the genre. "Once Upon The Cross" is like a diluted "Legion" with some parts of the first album - lacking. Everything after that just gets even worse.

I much prefer contemporary works of early Sinister and Acheron - they tackle parts of the same approach far more effectively.

That's what I meant. Don't keep the whole thing, just keep what is good.

And what about things that in total are worse than anything their parts have to offer? You're talking about a genre that is a mishmash of others, so your entire point is ludicrous, but you're also trying to evade the reality which is that to "take the good parts" from something, we need to keep it around. And if it has other consequences, we inherit those. The nuclear war example is apt because there's not something to learn/take from everything. Only some things.

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DA is very grindy (to the point where I don't know why ANUS classes them as metalcore).

Compositional direction.

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Their first album is a mishmash of songs with a cool riff or two but that are ultimately unrelated - lacks direction. "Legion" is the sole respectable work from the band, and even though my personal preference says that album is overrated, I can acknowledge its contributions to the genre. "Once Upon The Cross" is like a diluted "Legion" with some parts of the first album - lacking.

I don't agree on the first album. It's a clear rip of two other albums, but it integrates the influence into a new style and the songs fit together quite well. They are not as riff-salady as I'd like, but not that different from MA in terms of layout.

I still haven't seen you touch the substance of my message, or explain to us what nu-core offers that we can't get anywhere else, or why we should keep a tainted thing around in case it teaches us one tiny good thing in with the river of shit.