Thanks so much Yuu. Although I am now thinking that female ENTJ 8w7s may need to be eliminated from my research as you are kinda playing with an ace card there haha (you guys are exceptional).

So like...not you but everyone else...basically most humans have a tendency to miss or deny the majority of influences that shape who we are in positive and negative ways. It would be easy for me to believe I'm just as tough as some feminist in the past and be all like "see, I'm doing it all myself without the aid of some stupid movement"...until we start to look into how often the two of us were ridiculed...resisted...rejected...shown our place...silenced...ignored... <-these kinds of things...especially when they are not overt in nature (and thus have the potential of being noticed and subsequently rebelled against)...but rather very subtle to the point we may not even understand that they have occurred...these things change people. And I could see that happening to me to some degree but I'd probably just assume there was something seriously wrong with me and go off to live in isolation on my own terms. But many people that are social and have the noble desire to please... or individuals that unknowingly get tired of being resisted unknowingly change their direction...

Not you but others... I wonder how tough people would imagine themselves to be if put to the test.

Haha, okay. This is one time I will not feel be bad about being left out.

From what I know about feminism, it appears to have been rather beneficial for women's rights. That being said, I can understand why some people wouldn't want to identify as feminist. Somehow along the way, the perception of it has been altered from 'the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes', to other, less savoury definitions. Hence some who declare that they are instead 'equalists'. Well, I can't say much more about the topic, other than I do believe that the ideology itself seems sound to me.

I'm not sure how you ended up with that meaning either, considering how wildly off the mark it is. Men face more external discouragement than women because they occupy 96% of the workforce involved in rending physical reality to their wills in major and difficult ways- construction, demolition, repair technicians, trades, etc. If you're drilling through cement on a time budget and you run into a stone that keeps cooking your bits, making you feel discouraged for not being able to do what you want to do, nobody is going to have a talk with the rock to let you drill around it.

Now imagine you are a woman on the job. You are there trying to figure out a way to drill beyond that stone and meet your team's deadline. On top of that, though, you have to put up with a couple of male colleagues making disparaging, discouraging, and perhaps even sexually inappropriate remarks, even if you are one of the best workers on the job site, and the one who usually figures out clever solutions to problems like this. If they are mean enough, they may even go so far as to try to sabotage your efforts. Perhaps we should allow women in such situations to treat those men the same way as they treat the stubborn rock in the concrete. I bet then they would feel much less discouragement.

Our friendship would profit us both alike. Much we could still accomplish together, to heal the disorders of the world. Let us understand one another, and dismiss from thought these lesser folk.

Now imagine you are a woman on the job. You are there trying to figure out a way to drill beyond that stone and meet your team's deadline. On top of that, though, you have to put up with a couple of male colleagues making disparaging, discouraging, and perhaps even sexually inappropriate remarks, even if you are one of the best workers on the job site, and the one who usually figures out clever solutions to problems like this. If they are mean enough, they may even go so far as to try to sabotage your efforts. Perhaps we should allow women in such situations to treat those men the same way as they treat the stubborn rock in the concrete. I bet then they would feel much less discouragement.

I was bullied by my ENFJ superior for a year and a half until I was able to accrue enough experience and hard evidence to finally pull the trap door lever and hang him with it (he got canned). Point being- assholes are assholes, and they're a dime a dozen in these kinds of businesses. If someone would do that kind of thing to a woman, they'd be just as bad to other men. It's unrelated to sexism, and it's all the more reason to focus on one's self.

If you're a woman on the job who is talented and reliable you're going to get as much respect as a man who is equally talented and reliable. Assholes aside, there is a camaraderie to be had when waging war against matter and physics. Teamwork is accomplished by dropping what you're doing to lend a hand when called upon, and otherwise just trusting your partners to get it done themselves if not. You don't compete against each other, you compete against a common enemy, and like soldiers you want your coworkers to succeed at all times. You define your own worth by how resilient and talented you are, and you only learn resilience and talent through adversity. By holding women's hands you deny them the opportunity to make it on their own, and only make their first proverbial 'rock in the concrete' experience that much more shocking and discouraging. I used to hover over my female partner in encouraging support (the boss who got canned's replacement) but she never ended up learning anything, and resented me constantly having to rescue her- so I just stepped back and let her figure it out herself. Even if I knew she was going about things dead wrong, I let reality and physics teach her the deep unforgettable lessons I could never manage from the top-down.

It's one of the many reasons why millennials are so fucked. You can't hand someone self esteem. They have to earn it themselves. Remove legal barriers for equal pursuit. The rest will work itself out naturally. Changing hearts and minds through anything other than example is an impossible and wasted effort.

I was bullied by my ENFJ superior for a year and a half until I was able to accrue enough experience and hard evidence to finally pull the trap door lever and hang him with it (he got canned). Point being- assholes are assholes, and they're a dime a dozen in these kinds of businesses. If someone would do that kind of thing to a woman, they'd be just as bad to other men. It's unrelated to sexism, and it's all the more reason to focus on one's self.

If you're a woman on the job who is talented and reliable you're going to get as much respect as a man who is equally talented and reliable. Assholes aside, there is a camaraderie to be had when waging war against matter and physics. Teamwork is accomplished by dropping what you're doing to lend a hand when called upon, and otherwise just trusting your partners to get it done themselves if not. You don't compete against each other, you compete against a common enemy, and like soldiers you want your coworkers to succeed at all times. You define your own worth by how resilient and talented you are, and you only learn resilience and talent through adversity. By holding women's hands you deny them the opportunity to make it on their own, and only make their first proverbial 'rock in the concrete' experience that much more shocking and discouraging. I used to hover over my female partner in encouraging support (the boss who got canned's replacement) but she never ended up learning anything, and resented me constantly having to rescue her- so I just stepped back and let her figure it out herself. Even if I knew she was going about things dead wrong, I let reality and physics teach her the deep unforgettable lessons I could never manage from the top-down.

It's one of the many reasons why millennials are so fucked. You can't hand someone self esteem. They have to earn it themselves. Remove legal barriers for equal pursuit. The rest will work itself out naturally. Changing hearts and minds through anything other than example is an impossible and wasted effort.

I have started a new thread to discuss the different experiences of men and women in the workplace, academe, and the pursuit of related opportunities. Feel free to comment further there.

Our friendship would profit us both alike. Much we could still accomplish together, to heal the disorders of the world. Let us understand one another, and dismiss from thought these lesser folk.

I agree. She's not exceptionally big. I've seen female powerlifters who are waaaaaay bigger. It's very possible to get to her size if you're a mesomorph and eat/train for strength. In fact, I'd say that she probably hasn't maxed out for size - she'd need good aerobic capacity for MMA so she's probably doing cardio regularly on top of strength.

I'm nowhere near as big as her (or you, probably), since I run more than I lift and eat at maintenance.

This is where tough women and feminists converge, if anywhere: weight training.

No woman will look like this without steroids, but Rousey is a great example of where a woman's body can go naturally. She's probably not at her maximum muscle weight, because boxing is cardio.

To be fair, the other member included supplements in his comment; I looked larger when drinking creatine shakes. I'm not certain whether he meant testosterone supplements or not. I don't know how those work with women. They seemed like a risky idea to me. I stopped taking supplements anyhow, because apparently the FDA doesn't regulate them. I still came out slightly larger than Rousey without supplements for two years.

This is where tough women and feminists converge, if anywhere: weight training.

No woman will look like this without steroids, but Rousey is a great example of where a woman's body can go naturally. She's probably not at her maximum muscle weight, because boxing is cardio.

To be fair, the other member included supplements in his comment; I looked larger when drinking creatine shakes. I'm not certain whether he meant testosterone supplements or not. I don't know how those work with women. They seemed like a risky idea to me. I stopped taking supplements anyhow, because apparently the FDA doesn't regulate them. I still came out slightly larger than Rousey without supplements for two years.

There's a few of us. From memory, there's @MDP2525 and @that's not my name too. I did notice that a lot of the girls who lift are xSTPs (in my head, xSTP girls = badass ).

Yeah she's definitely not at her maximum. Apart from the powerlifters there's also the cross fitters, who get big because they do volume and intensity in combination with paleo. As far as supplements go, I take a vitamin/mineral supplement with protein, and that's it. I wouldn't count testosterone as a "supplement" because you don't get it nutritionally and it's banned. Creatine or beta-alanine can be obtained nutritionally from lean meat, so that's fine. But yeah, regulation for over-the-counters is crap. Often, what you're buying isn't what it says on the label - and there might be contamination. There are pre-workouts that contain banned stimulants as well, so it's important to be careful.. but as far as nutritional supplements go, unless you're talking about protein it shouldn't make that much of a difference for size.

"How badly did you have to break it to make it care about people so much?"
"That didn't break it. It's what made it work."

I wouldn't count testosterone as a "supplement" because you don't get it nutritionally and it's banned.

I don't want to get too off-topic here, but supplements that boost testosterone are marketed as testosterone supplements. D-Aspartic acid and fenugreek (usually combined with horny goat weed) are two of them. That's what I meant.

My definition of feminism is that it allows ladies to abuse their rights and violate the rights of others for their own means, who ever telling that feminsim is about equal they are lying to you

In order for society to survive, we must all pitch in and cooperate with one another, split the resources fairly.
If we get greedy, everything will fall apart
The main reason why there is no long peace is because everything is set and stone.
Another is that resources are limited and the ones who had the most goes bad because they are in control.