ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE and Xian doctrine, we (humans) are all SINNERS. We came from the womb sinners. Sinners deserve to receive god’s punishment for offending him. Sinners cannot pay the price for our sins. Our sin debt is too great. Only DEATH can satisfy our debt.

OK, so far?

Enter Jesus Christ. Son of God and very God.

Jesus (again according to scripture) has come to “take away the sins of the world”. He is a “ransom” for humanity. Jesus Christ gives his life as a sacrifice to “take away” our sin debt. Thus casting our sin from us, as far as the east is from the west. On the cross, according to John the beloved, Jesus says, “It is finished”. In Latin he said “Tetelestai”, meaning “paid in full”.

Now, to MY un-spirit-filled eyes, it looks like Jesus Christ has PAID IN FULL the “sin debt” that we could not pay. And since it was a “ransom” payment, it MUST have been PAID to the Enemy (Satan). (A ransom is NOT paid to the victim’s parents, but to the KIDNAPPERS. Correct?)

“God” is now “satisfied” with the PAYMENT IN FULL, and our “sin debt” has been removed from US. Cast as far as the east is from the west. Correct? No more PENALTY awaits us. We CAN’T add to the “finished work of the cross.” Right?

So…WHY is it necessary for ME (and the rest of us “sinners”) to believe and CONTINUE to believe, AND worship AND serve “God”, in order to be “saved” from a PENALTY that has ALREADY been PAID FOR?!?!?

Too complicated for you to follow? Okay. I’ll bring it down to a more mundane level.

Let’s say I owe my creditors a million bucks. I can’t pay it. They threaten me with the penalty of torture until death for non-payment.

But along comes “Joshua” the philanthropist. And out of the goodness of his heart he FREELY PAYS my debt IN FULL. My creditors agree to remove the penalty from me. THEY are satisfied.

I’m notified of this great benefit done for me. I smile greatly and say, “Thanks, Joshua! You’re alright in my book!”

Then I go on about my business. Living life and enjoying my new found debt-free living.

But then Joshua comes around and tells me that if I don’t continue to BELIEVE that he’s paid my debt, then I will be punished “in the end”. He also tells me that I must now “worship” him, and do “good works” in order to prove that I am one of HIS servants. Or else I will suffer the penalty that WAS paid for, but can be re-instated if I don’t play ball.

“What kind of bullshit is THIS?!?”, I’d scream. “You, Joshua, told me that my debt was PAID IN FULL! Why must I continue to believe it, for the payment to be enforced? And what’s with all these strings attached? I thought this was a ‘free gift’, done out of love? What’s with the terrorists threats?”

Hmmm…

NOW do you see the similarity with the Christian fable?

IF Jesus PAID for all of our sins, then WHY must I believe it in order to receive it? Why does my UN-belief nullify HIS payment? Why MUST I DO anything to be forgiven? Hasn’t “God” erased my/our “sin debt” already?

Am I to pay a debt ALREADY paid?

IS IT FINISHED OR NOT?

You Christians say that Jesus paid for my sins. Fine. I BELIEVE YOU!

Now…why must I “continue in my faith” to escape a penalty that no longer exists? Why can’t I live my life in peace? Why am I STILL being threatened with “hell fire”, when “death and hell” has been conquered by “Jesus”?

IS IT FINISHED OR NOT? If Jesus Christ PAID (past tense) for my sins, then WHY must I believe in order for this "payment" to go into effect? Won't the payment still hold up EVEN IF I don't believe?

Something is not quite right here, True Believers. Help me to understand the method of your madness.

P.S. – I would LOVE to post this on ChristianForum.com, but I just KNOW I would be banned in three seconds flat! So I invite all Christians visiting here to take a stab at clearing this up. (Ha Ha! Good luck!)

There was something I was thinking in the last couple weeks similar to this Thread. But it has to do with what got me finding Christianity earlier in my life being in it. Why can't we now see more evidence of God working in our period. In other words what got me so confound about Christianity was that God made some evidence before Christ with the Sheep\lamb sacrafices and then at Penticoastal after Christ was to have made this that finished and final seperation and bridge. If Christ has made a Bridge between us and God. Then the evidence of God should be with us now. I couldn't understand why, after we have advanced in Science to clear up miss-conceptions of Lightening and Earthquakes and so many other things about this Earth and Universe. From what we know now, how can we see the evidence of God from all the things that can trick or perciptions about the ordinary occurances of Nature and the Elements that act accordingly throughout the Universe?

Why is this supposed God more Elusive and not being evident of Christ had made things finished and we are now able to have that bridge that crosses this gap? Christianity is too canny for it own good. It has standards that avoid reason to know the facts.

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Guest aexapo

Guest aexapo

Charismatic "Bishop" Carlton Pearson of Tulsa got in a lot of trouble for preaching his brand of Universalism -- something he dubbs "inclusionism." He started preaching it about the same time he decided to run for Mayor of Tulsa under the GOP flag, but his enormous clout on TBN or his mega-church couldn't save him.

He placed pretty awfully in that primary, members left in droves, and TBN booted him off (perhaps he should have stuck to "healing the sick?" [/sarcasm]). Some indy "bishop" group deemed him a heretic to boot, although he didn't derive his title from any other authority other than his own.

So, yeah -- a few Christians have decided that, and they don't get to play with the other Christians anymore.

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"We all feel we have to jump through hoops to please this intolerant and difficult-to-please God," [bishop Pearson] said in an interview last year. "We think God is going to burn billions of people endlessly without any recourse. That sounds more like the devil than God."

Sounds like a future member of Ex-C in the making, huh? Shouldn't be long before Pearson wakes up and apostasizes. (I figure when the money stops flowing, he'll quit completely.)

If you'll look carefully, many Christians are waking up to the realization that bible-god is more "Satanic" than the devil. Many people are embracing "spirituality" and "inclusivism" by the thousands.

Now if we could only get them to quit supporting the churches and calling themselves "Christians".

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On a related note, I've argued to no end that requiring faith is in fact a "work", since it requires that I do something to receive salvation. The response I received was "no it's not", with no explanation at all of why requiring faith does not amount to a work.

The only way it can be salvation without works is if nothing whatsoever is required of me to receive it.

I don't understand how any thinking rational person can believe all this shit. Do they never sit down and go "hmmm wait a minute, that doesn't sound quite right."

They prop their beliefs and hopes upon tradition...and yet the very foundations of those traditions were created by moral midgets like martin luther. We've gone over some of HIS unsavory quotes and character.

They believe because from day one, the church blackmails them by saying they'll go to hell if they so much as doubt "God's word". If they express concerns over inconsistencies, they're told Satan is putting those thoughts in their head so from then on, they can't trust their own judgement because they think they're too weak not to let the devil influence them.

That's how they can throw away logic when it comes to Christianity, because thinking is an invitation to "evil".

ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE and Xian doctrine, we (humans) are all SINNERS. We came from the womb sinners. Sinners deserve to receive god’s punishment for offending him. Sinners cannot pay the price for our sins. Our sin debt is too great. Only DEATH can satisfy our debt.

OK, so far?

Enter Jesus Christ. Son of God and very God.

Jesus (again according to scripture) has come to “take away the sins of the world”. He is a “ransom” for humanity. Jesus Christ gives his life as a sacrifice to “take away” our sin debt. Thus casting our sin from us, as far as the east is from the west. On the cross, according to John the beloved, Jesus says, “It is finished”. In Latin he said “Tetelestai”, meaning “paid in full”.

Now, to MY un-spirit-filled eyes, it looks like Jesus Christ has PAID IN FULL the “sin debt” that we could not pay. And since it was a “ransom” payment, it MUST have been PAID to the Enemy (Satan). (A ransom is NOT paid to the victim’s parents, but to the KIDNAPPERS. Correct?)

“God” is now “satisfied” with the PAYMENT IN FULL, and our “sin debt” has been removed from US. Cast as far as the east is from the west. Correct? No more PENALTY awaits us. We CAN’T add to the “finished work of the cross.” Right?

So…WHY is it necessary for ME (and the rest of us “sinners”) to believe and CONTINUE to believe, AND worship AND serve “God”, in order to be “saved” from a PENALTY that has ALREADY been PAID FOR?!?!?

Too complicated for you to follow? Okay. I’ll bring it down to a more mundane level.

Let’s say I owe my creditors a million bucks. I can’t pay it. They threaten me with the penalty of torture until death for non-payment.

But along comes “Joshua” the philanthropist. And out of the goodness of his heart he FREELY PAYS my debt IN FULL. My creditors agree to remove the penalty from me. THEY are satisfied.

I’m notified of this great benefit done for me. I smile greatly and say, “Thanks, Joshua! You’re alright in my book!”

Then I go on about my business. Living life and enjoying my new found debt-free living.

But then Joshua comes around and tells me that if I don’t continue to BELIEVE that he’s paid my debt, then I will be punished “in the end”. He also tells me that I must now “worship” him, and do “good works” in order to prove that I am one of HIS servants. Or else I will suffer the penalty that WAS paid for, but can be re-instated if I don’t play ball.

“What kind of bullshit is THIS?!?”, I’d scream. “You, Joshua, told me that my debt was PAID IN FULL! Why must I continue to believe it, for the payment to be enforced? And what’s with all these strings attached? I thought this was a ‘free gift’, done out of love? What’s with the terrorists threats?”

Hmmm…

NOW do you see the similarity with the Christian fable?

IF Jesus PAID for all of our sins, then WHY must I believe it in order to receive it? Why does my UN-belief nullify HIS payment? Why MUST I DO anything to be forgiven? Hasn’t “God” erased my/our “sin debt” already?

Am I to pay a debt ALREADY paid?

IS IT FINISHED OR NOT?

You Christians say that Jesus paid for my sins. Fine. I BELIEVE YOU!

Now…why must I “continue in my faith” to escape a penalty that no longer exists? Why can’t I live my life in peace? Why am I STILL being threatened with “hell fire”, when “death and hell” has been conquered by “Jesus”?

IS IT FINISHED OR NOT? If Jesus Christ PAID (past tense) for my sins, then WHY must I believe in order for this "payment" to go into effect? Won't the payment still hold up EVEN IF I don't believe?

Something is not quite right here, True Believers. Help me to understand the method of your madness.

P.S. – I would LOVE to post this on ChristianForum.com, but I just KNOW I would be banned in three seconds flat! So I invite all Christians visiting here to take a stab at clearing this up. (Ha Ha! Good luck!)

Thats one of my main reasons to deconvert. IF HE DIED FOR OUR SINS AND FREEDOM FROM DEATH, WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT MATTER NOW HOW WE FEEL,ACT OR BELIEVE? I still believe in the golden rule from a secular standpoint,but we can do all the fucking praying and worship we want. It doesn't amount to anything.

Do you remember the story in Exodus when the Hebrews were bitten by snakes in the wilderness? God instructed Moses to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole and all who looked to that image were healed. Jesus quotes the story in the Gospel of John 3:13

"...the Son of Man must be lifted up as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert so that evryone who believes may have eternal life in Him."

I dont get your analogy. The story you reference is Numbers 21:6. There, God sent fiery serpents to kill sinners. Then God had Moses erect a bronze serpent so that everyone who looks at it after being bitten, will live.

So wouldnt that mean God has to send Jesus to kill sinners, then have someone erect Jesus (literally him or methaphorically a statue), so that whenever Jesus starts to kill sinners, all they have to do is look at Jesus then theyll live?

Let's look at the word "believe." A lot of people say, "Yeah. I believe in God." But what does the word believe actually mean.? The word in Greek is piseto (? something like that, sorry!) But it means to trust, cling to and rely on. The Jews in the desert could not be healed unless they looked at the serpent on the pole.

Yes... they were saved by looking at a statue of their own killer. That's kinda weird dontcha think? Someone is attempt to murder you, but if you look at an erected statue of your killer... or in your analogy, worship and call him your savior, then youre healed or saved.

Action was required. If a man is drowning he has to allow his saviour to save him, but if that man resists and insists on doing it his own way, how then can he be saved?

Then so if you were drowning and i rescued you... you would worship me forever right? But if at some point at your life you decide not to worship me anymore... i get to drown you. Do you honestly think that's fair?

Of course "it is finished." Jesus death provided the life raft, the life saver, all the tools needed to save the man but he has to allow himself to be "saved."

the point of the thread was we're saying yes... okae we're saved. So why must we continually thank "Joshua" forever? If we dont, he'll have the tax debt put back.... Again, i ask why is that fair?

God offers the choice, to live in His Kingdom or the Kingdom of darkness. Salvation is simply the way into His Kingdom. If one is truly "saved" by Jesus' sacrifice one would know what they haved been saved from, saved from sins. So why would they then turn around and jump right back into the stuff that was killing them? Love for the Saviour is the natural fruit of a person who has really been saved.

OK fine... im saved. But that doesnt mean we're gonna perform the acts that were "killing" us. And that doesnt mean we have to kiss ass for all eternity. It's not fair to be saved then be blackmailed into worshipping the savior for fear of taking back the "free gift". Nobody gives a gift to someone then say if you dont worship me, im gonna take your gift back.

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[Ah! HERE you are, Amy Marie! Why didn't you just tell me you had posted a reply over here? Clear communciation is such a chore, isn't it? )

So, Amy Marie, what you're saying is that IT ISN'T FINISHED? Christ's work on the cross means absolutely nothing? We must continue to WORK to "be saved"? Slave away in his "kingdom" (even though no one is "there" yet ), sweeping his streets and sucking his balls, living the life of abject humiliation, or else get the old heave ho?

What the fuck kind of "finished work" is this? (I'm reminded of "Pilgrim's Progress", where "Christian" has his smelly burden removed at the foot of the cross. "Christian" thought his ordeal was over, but he was wrong. He still had an arduous journey to make to get to the Celestial City. During which time he could have "lost" his "salvation" through various trials and tribulations. I ask again: "What the fuck kind of finished work is this?")

You speak of being in his kingdom and abiding in him and serving him. THAT is working for your salvation, or at least working to KEEP it. So "faith" has nothing to do with it, does it? You must continually "Kiss Hank's Ass" or else he'll kick the shit out of you?

Where does the so-called "entering into his rest" ever enter the picture? Sounds like you've got to be continually scrambling to maintain your position "in Christ". And if you slack off or fuck up, you can "lose" your salvation? (And please don't say "no, you don't", because you'll be contradicting yourself. For THAT is the message of John 15.)

Amy, you're the Prototypical Confused Christian. All of your cherished doctrines and beliefs are tripping all over themselves.

Do you remember the story in Exodus when the Hebrews were bitten by snakes in the wilderness? God instructed Moses to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole and all who looked to that image were healed.

Nice Amy,

The Bronze Serpent story is actually one of my favorites to bring up. Know why?

God gives a LAW of no cast idols.

Exodus 34:17

17 "Do not make cast idols.

But then he turns around, and tells Moses to construct the BS (heh) to heal folks of snake venom.

So you have a "magic" bronze snake statue......but somehow this is not an "idol"? (look up the word "idol" before answering and making a total ass of yourself BTW).

In fact, in Kings II 18:4, the BS is dismantled because GEE WHIZ, folks are WORSHIPPING it!!!!

4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it.

So WTF Amy? The common people wind up worshipping the snake...... and seeing as your Sky Daddy could have chosen ANY damn method of administering the venom cure....did he make a mistake picking the form of the BS? These folks were brought out of EGYPT where snakes are worshipped as being gods, and you don't think this act of Biblegod would cause some confusion? And seeing as he willfully breaks a law to set the snake up in the first place, just how much creedence are we supposed to give the OTHER laws?

You think god can break the laws HE sets up???

WRONG!!!

If anyone is primarily bound by the law, it HE WHO CREATED IT! If the authority disregards the law, just how much respect do you think the subordinates are going to give it?

And this is where you Christians crack me up. Inevitably one of you says: "Well it's GOD....he can do whatever he WANTS."

NO....and this is why governments love religion so much.....becasue the dogma teaches people to view tyrant behavior as being GODLY.

Funny that you would bring up a story that most christian folk have convieniently forgotton because of these little "problems".

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:12-19.

Here we have Paul's explanation of Salvation. The problem is going to be that later on there are other verses that require "belief" though this speaks little of such a thing.

Paul tries to help the reader understand that the atonement Jesus made for the sin of the world is likened to the way sin entered the world. Sin entered the world through Adam- one man. In this passage above, it is stated that "death (sin) reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." So everyone is a victim of Adam's sin according to this verse, even those who didn't do as Adam did.

Then along comes Jesus. He dies for the sins of the world. In the passage above it is stated "so then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." This plainly says, and repeatedly says, that the sin of one man brought sin into the world and the death of one man as a sacrifice brought life into the world, or atonement for all the sin that had passed.

Basically, a person doesn't have to believe in Adam or in Adam's sin for the sin to affect them and make them banished to hell unless they turn to Jesus. So why should a person have to believe in the atonement of Christ to have the sin not affect them anymore? It's one way or the other. Either Jesus died for all the sin or he didn't, if in fact his death and atonement were supposed to be likened to the manner in which sin entered the world through one man, Adam.

So, it should be finished. It should be a once and for all, done deal, according to Paul here. However, other verses then conveniently add the part about having to believe. Some verses even talk about a person having to do good works. It isn't really clear which way it is. Now, the doctrine has some interesting answers, but it still does not address this large passage in Romans where Paul meticulously and repetitively lays out the idea of Salvation and how it works.

When I went away from church to actually find God (because I wasn't seeing him there) this is a passage that completely made me question the entire principle Christianity is built on. I think the people who formed the religion got it wrong or purposely changed it to make people also have to believe to be saved. There is nothing about that here in this passage. I would think Paul would have thought it important enough to say somewhere in his explanation of how Salvation works that belief was necessary if it indeed was.

No matter how you look at it, it doesn't line up. The only way to try and make it line up is through doctrine. The actual Bible is unclear on the issue.

Also we are saved so that we can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. A Kingdom has a King. To live in this Kingdom you would want to honor the King and because this Kingdom is filled with light you don't want to practice deeds of darkness, deeds that are practiced in Satan's Kingdom.

God offers the choice, to live in His Kingdom or the Kingdom of darkness. Salvation is simply the way into His Kingdom. If one is truly "saved" by Jesus' sacrifice one would know what they haved been saved from, saved from sins. So why would they then turn around and jump right back into the stuff that was killing them? Love for the Saviour is the natural fruit of a person who has really been saved.

Amy, have you ever thought about why America isn't a kingdom? Or why Europe scrapped all kingdoms in exchange for democracy? Do you think Democracy is from the Devil, like some fundamentalists do?

You really don't understand Jesus, His love and what He did or you. I see no amount of arguing or pleading is going to change your mind.

How can you claim to know it, when not even all the Christians can agree on the details?

Did Jesus die spiritually or not?

Did Jesus show himself in a physical body or spiritual body?

Did Jesus go to Hell when he died?

If he did, was it because he had to fight against the devil, or did he preach to the dead?

Are you saved by grace, by faith, by actions or are all humanity saved?

I could go on with so many issues that has not been agreed upon. You have an opinion and a answer to each of these questions, and maybe you have the same answers as your pastor, while a church down the street might have a few different answers, and yet a church overseas answer all questions different than you.

So how can anyone undestand Jesus, when his people are not unified under one belief?

The Bible actually say that the proof that the church is from Jesus and God, is that it is unified. And looking at the church and see that it's not unified, that means by Biblical standards and Jesus own words, that it is not from God. The Bible says so, and I believe it is so, the Christian Church do not represent God.

---

If I bring up the Christian Essenes that exists today, they believe different than you, and you would most likely claim they are false Christians, only because they don't conform to what YOU believe. So anyone that call themself Christian and don't believe in Amyism, are false Christians. Only Amyistic Christians are True Christians. Let's adore Amy, because God have bestowed the truth unto her soul!