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Re: Ammunition Bill Signed into Law

Originally Posted by Ikari

Sins of the past do not excuse sins of the present. Yes, the Patriot Act went too far, and most (if not all) should be rescinded. But just because the government acted improperly in the past doesn't mean it gets to continue on that path in the future. This is more about showing an ID to buy it. This is about fingerprinting and databasing.

How about every time you buy a 12 pack, you're fingerprinted, the data is sent to the police, and your habits and location and what you bought is databased? But you using hyperbole to suggest that it is nothing more than showing an ID is intellectually weak again. Please try to debate better.

The Patriot Act went to far, and so did your statement saying well then the gov't should be able to search whenever you want. CCTV isn't unconstitutional, whenever you want searches are.

Fingerprints for 12-packs is silly. Fingerprints for ammo is fine with me, I don't care if CA wants to pass that law.

Originally Posted by Ikari

Awww, you so wanted to turn it around, but you can't. You have nothing to back up your claim. I had your hyperbole and deflect. I also have the right to secure my person, papers, and property against unreasonable search and seizure. Taking my finger prints and databasing my information is definitely a violation of that. Which is an act of tyranny and treason.

What do you have to back up your claim? Anything? Or were you just trying to be cute and failed?

The hyperbole existed in your statement characterizing the passage of an ammunition law as tyranny and treason. Which claim do you want me to back up? Why don't you not be cute and just ask a straight question?

Re: Ammunition Bill Signed into Law

Taking my finger prints and databasing my information is definitely a violation of that. Which is an act of tyranny and treason.

Sorry to jump in at this juncture, but you are indeed in a tyrannical system today and if you do not adhere to it, you can risk fines, even imprisonment.

That is your 1040 form, where private information you wouldn't even consider giving to most of your friends or relatives we give to the government. From where we live and work, our salary, our investments, spouse, our children, our losses and gains, what other taxes we pay, etc.

The data base is already there. The penalties are real. The life altering affects of inaccurate or non reporting can be felt for years.

Re: Ammunition Bill Signed into Law

Registration to buy ammunition is not an infringement on the exercise of a right. Registration is required to exercise many rights. I gave the example of voting.

Yes.... and I then explained how your registration to vote example doesnt translate to the right to arms -- registration is an inherent part of the right to vote; the same cannot be said for the right to keep and bear arms.

Did you have a response to that?

However, the fact of needing to register doesn't infringe on that right. It also is not an unconstitutional infringement to require registration to own guns.

Gun/ammo registration is a precondition to the exercise of the right not inherent to that right, and therefore it IS an infringement.

There are many rights which require registration to exercise.

You gave one example, one where the registration in question was an inherent part of the right in question, and therefore not an infringement.
Do you have other examples?

Besides, there is no constitutional right to buy ammunition in the Constitution.

Redundant much?
Ammunition is every bit as much a part of the right to arms as words are a part of free speech.

Re: Ammunition Bill Signed into Law

The Patriot Act went to far, and so did your statement saying well then the gov't should be able to search whenever you want. CCTV isn't unconstitutional, whenever you want searches are.

Fingerprints for 12-packs is silly. Fingerprints for ammo is fine with me, I don't care if CA wants to pass that law.

CCTV isn't fine, not if the government is putting it up to monitor too much. I don't like it, I'd always vote against it. The fingerprinting for a 12 pack isn't silly. It's an analogy using something you'd probably have more contact with than ammunition. You merely want to label it as such to avoid debate. Good job.

Originally Posted by jackalope

The hyperbole existed in your statement characterizing the passage of an ammunition law as tyranny and treason. Which claim do you want me to back up? Why don't you not be cute and just ask a straight question?

I asked straight questions, you deflect and dodge. "It's silly" and crap like that. Remember that one? It's right above. I already told you why it was treason as it's against the second and fourth amendment. Violating the rights of the individual is an act of tyranny and treason.

The claim I wanted you to back up (please read, it's very clear from the posts) was "Suggesting that something you don't like is tyranny and treason is intellectually weak." I can't believe you didn't understand that. As it was quoted and I had commented on it, and the prove it part was in the same paragraph. But whatever.

You didn't address violations of the fourth, you merely dismissed analogy; and you have the gall to tell me to ask straight questions. How about an intellectually honest answer out of you?

You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville

"I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

Re: Ammunition Bill Signed into Law

Originally Posted by Just Plain Jim

Sorry to jump in at this juncture, but you are indeed in a tyrannical system today and if you do not adhere to it, you can risk fines, even imprisonment.

That is your 1040 form, where private information you wouldn't even consider giving to most of your friends or relatives we give to the government. From where we live and work, our salary, our investments, spouse, our children, our losses and gains, what other taxes we pay, etc.

The data base is already there. The penalties are real. The life altering affects of inaccurate or non reporting can be felt for years.

I call that totalitarian.

I understand there are already problems. I'd like to address the problems we currently have. However, I don't think it behooves us to make the situation worse.

You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville

"I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

Re: Ammunition Bill Signed into Law

I answered that. Registration to buy ammunition is not an infringement on the exercise of a right. Registration is required to exercise many rights. I gave the example of voting.

In the case of voting, registration is intrinsic to ensuring the process is not a fraud... the same is not true of purchasing firearms. In the first case it is part of the process to ensure each vote is counted etc, in the 2nd it is an unnecessary infringement.

Originally Posted by jackalope

TOJ gave a smart answer about the right to vote not actually being written in the constitution, that was interesting..

It is in the constitution

Originally Posted by jackalope

However, the fact of needing to register doesn't infringe on that right.

You cannot ensure fair and legitimate voting without registration...requiring registration is part of protection of that right. The 2nd amendment is different, it does not require registration for your right to obtain and keep arms to be protected.

Originally Posted by jackalope

Besides, there is no constitutional right to buy ammunition in the Constitution. Many in the 1700s just made there own .

The constitution doesn't grant rights, so what's your point. And besides, the 2nd says "to bear arms..." a gun needs ammo to be effective, it is part and parcel--the ammo + the weapon = the armament. Otherwise its just a club.

Re: Ammunition Bill Signed into Law

Originally Posted by other

In the case of voting, registration is intrinsic to ensuring the process is not a fraud... the same is not true of purchasing firearms. In the first case it is part of the process to ensure each vote is counted etc, in the 2nd it is an unnecessary infringement.

Its called a 'compelling state interest', and it is part of the strict scrutiny standard.

Essentially, the right to legitimate and fair voting cannot be exercised without effective voter registration, and therefore, the requirement to register to vote - a precondition to the exercise of the right - does not infringe the right to vote.

The same cannot be argued for the right to arms, and so registration related to that right -would- be an infringement.

Re: Ammunition Bill Signed into Law

Originally Posted by Goobieman

Its called a 'compelling state interest', and it is part of the strict scrutiny standard.

Essentially, the right to legitimate and fair voting cannot be exercised without effective voter registration, and therefore, the requirement to register to vote - a precondition to the exercise of the right - does not infringe the right to vote.

The same cannot be argued for the right to arms, and so registration related to that right -would- be an infringement.

yep. I personally call it "common sense."

There is more of a compelling interest for the people to ensure votes are counted correctly.

Re: Ammunition Bill Signed into Law

How bout also applying this crap to militairy and police ammo? It would be interesting to see where Mexico is getting its arms/bullets via following microstamping. Average gun buyers who then sell their own legal stuff across the border? Some corrupt police seizure depo? Or contractors who supply the military with its munitions and a box "falls off" the truck.

I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."