Tatsuma:notto: When your opinions require the need for thousands of fellow citizens to keep the secret without any real motivation to do so

The same government who couldn't keep Bill Clinton's blowjob a secret was able 3 years later to pull off 9/11 without a hitch

Yes, the Bush administration, which couldn't fire 8 lawyers whom THEY HAD HIRED without causing a farking scandal, were somehow able to pull off 9/11. This is one of the many reasons 9/11 wasn't an inside job.

AverageAmericanGuy:Facetious_Speciest: Meh. Conspiracy theories are crazy until they're not. It was a "conspiracy theory" that the American government purposefully turned a blind eye to the plight of Jewish refugees in WWII...until some guys from the Treasury Department essentially blackmailed the State Department and Roosevelt with threats of going public. Then it got serious.

Instead of the thousands of other examples, I went straight for the Holocaust. Lazy, I know, but it's early.

Continue on with whatever your reptilian overlords from the Hollow Earth want you to think, though. You won't be so smug when the real bin Laden returns from Atlantis with the Spear of Longinus in his wet, tentacled grasp.

Some crazies were claiming that the US government was running fake vaccination programs in Pakistan to find Bin Laden.

LOL. What a bunch of loons.

Those were real vaccinations, but we weren't doing that to find Bin Laden. We were doing that to create a generation of autistic kids that could serve as cheap foreign coders in 20 years when outsourcing to India becomes slightly less cost-effective.

1) Why were a handful of rebel fighters able to penetrate the defenses of a battle station that had the capability of destroying an entire planet and the defenses to ward off several fleets of battle ships?

2) Why did Grand Moff Tarkin refuse to deploy the station's large fleet of TIE Fighters until it was too late? Was he acting on orders from somebody to not shoot down the rebel attack force? If so, who, and why?

3) Why was the rebel pilot who supposedly destroyed the Death Star reported to be on the Death Star days, maybe hours, prior to its destruction? Why was he allowed to escape, and why were several individuals dressed in Stormtrooper uniforms seen helping him?

4) Why has there not been an investigation into allegations that Darth Vader, the second-ranking member of the Imperial Government, is in fact the father of the pilot who allegedly destroyed the Death Star?

5) Why did Lord Vader decide to break all protocols and personally pilot a lightly armored TIE Fighter? Conveniently, this placed Lord Vader outside of the Death Star when it was destroyed, where he was also conveniently able to escape from a large-sized rebel fleet that had just routed the Imperial forces. Why would Lord Vader, one of the highest ranking members of the Imperial Government, suddenly decide to fly away from the Death Star in the middle of a battle? Did he know something that the rest of the Imperial Navy didn't?

6) How could any pilot shoot a missile into a 2 meter-wide exhaust port, let alone a pilot with no formal training, whose only claim to fame was his ability to "bullseye womprats" on Tatooine? This shot, according to one pilot, would be "impossible, even for a computer." Yet, according to additional evidence, the pilot who allegedly fired the missile turned off his targeting computer when he was supposedly firing the shot that destroyed the Death Star. Why have these discrepancies never been investigated, let alone explained?

7) Why has their been no investigation into evidence that the droids who provided the rebels with the Death Star plans were once owned by none other than Lord Vader himself, and were found, conveniently, by the pilot who destroyed the Death Star, and who is also believed to be Lord Vader's son? Evidence also shows that the droids were brought to one Ben Kenobi, who, records indicate, was Darth Vader's teacher many years earlier! Are all these personal connections between the conspirators and a key figure in the Imperial government supposed to be coincidences?

8) How could a single missile destroy a battle station the size of a moon? No records, anywhere, show that any battle station or capital ship has ever been destroyed by a single missile. Furthermore, analysis of the tape of the last moments of the Death Star show numerous small explosions along its surface, prior to it exploding completely! Why does all evidence indicate that strategically placed explosives, not a single missile, is what destroyed the Death Star?

9) And where was Emperor Palpatine during all of this? He spend 5 full minutes continuing to read "My Pet Bantha" to a classroom of young Sith after hearing the news!

Tatsuma:God Is My Co-Pirate: I suspect the continuation of that thought was traditionally "...and it must be true because I owe the Jewish guy down the street some money and I don't want to pay it back."

Nevermind the fact that they money they borrowed wasn't ours but usually either the king's, the lord's or the church's money.

Oh and when those would borrow from us, when it was time to pay they'd usually just kick us out instead (at best) or have us all killed (at... well kind of always)

There's a family story that we had Jewish ancestors who were merchant traders in London in the 1600s, and the king confiscated a cargo ship of ours. My uncle was doing a bit of research to see if we could still file a claim with the Crown. The lack of any proof whatsoever seems to negate it, but it's a good story.

The day after 9-11. I stopped at the local market, There was an older man talking on a pay phone. He was loud and obviously agitated, As I passed him I could hear, " What do you think it's about? It's the Jews!"

Are "conspiracy theorists" irrational and have a difficulty coping with reality?The same could be said about people who feel hatred for conspiracy theories, who only pay attention to the lowest common denominator while believing they are seriously trying to get to the bottom of an issue, and rejoice in mocking all dissenting views that they believe is distorting their reality./empathy... some of you lack it.

MacWizard:I'm kind of disappointed in this thread. The only real interesting story I found here was that the CIA made the 1954 film Animal Farm, and changed the ending.

Ever hear the CIA helped in Readers Digest? Nope not a clue if it was true. What did you expect other than people coming in and screaming about Truefers? Me I'll just settle back and do some good ole American heroin, shipped from the new Golden Triangle.

legion_of_doo:Abox: The dumber you are, the more you're likely to believe there's people capable of pulling off infinitely intricate and unlikely acts of deception in the name of things you're scared of.

that's the trick with 9/11 conspiracy... you'd have to work around Dumbya.

Of course, you do realize that whatever anyone believes, there will be "people capable of pulling off infinitely intricate and unlikely acts of deception "

God Is My Co-Pirate:AverageAmericanGuy: Denigrate and alienate people who question the official story. Discount their opinions and questions and squelch dissent. Openly mock anyone who deviates from the proper groupthink. Do not give them any quarter. Make them embarrassed to ask any questions.

It's up to all of us to stop the spread of lies against the State.

Whenever I hear this sort of thing, it doesn't make me want to expose the conspiracy, it makes me want to join the conspirators. Probably there's something wrong with me.

There used to be a Msc degree in environmental econs at the best political science school here in France called "Sustainable development and world governance". Part of me wanted to apply! *Evil laugh*

Lady Indica:SpdrJay: The crap I've read on conspiracy theory boards has done more to make me disbelieve conspiracies than anything else. Many of these people have readily identifiable mental illness and it doesn't lend much credibility to their ideas.

Yeah but its amazing the number of people who aren't obvious loonies, but hold a conspiracy belief. They just don't make it their hobby like those folks, so they're not always going on about it. I'm sure you can easily think of one or two people who are seeming rational and sane people...but who really think 9/11 was an inside job. Or that the jews secretly control the world. Or that fluoride in the water is dangerous, drug companies withhold cures to (HIV, cancer, etc) for profits...

Not every nutjob wears the tin foil hat in public

Oh yeah, that's another "conspiracy" I believe in. I don't think drug companies intentionally withhold cures for HIV, diabetes, cancer, etc. I'm sure if they had cures that there would be enough people with scruples to release it to the public. But I have heard that there's hardly any money going into researching cures for these major diseases, and most of the money is going towards research on treating the symptoms of these diseases. And to me it makes sense, there's no money in curing someone of a disease (like diabetes) but if you can get them coming back to you for the rest of their lives to treat the symptoms, then you're going to make (obviously) a hell of a lot more money.

CrazyCracka420:Lady Indica: SpdrJay: The crap I've read on conspiracy theory boards has done more to make me disbelieve conspiracies than anything else. Many of these people have readily identifiable mental illness and it doesn't lend much credibility to their ideas.

Yeah but its amazing the number of people who aren't obvious loonies, but hold a conspiracy belief. They just don't make it their hobby like those folks, so they're not always going on about it. I'm sure you can easily think of one or two people who are seeming rational and sane people...but who really think 9/11 was an inside job. Or that the jews secretly control the world. Or that fluoride in the water is dangerous, drug companies withhold cures to (HIV, cancer, etc) for profits...

Not every nutjob wears the tin foil hat in public

Oh yeah, that's another "conspiracy" I believe in. I don't think drug companies intentionally withhold cures for HIV, diabetes, cancer, etc. I'm sure if they had cures that there would be enough people with scruples to release it to the public. But I have heard that there's hardly any money going into researching cures for these major diseases, and most of the money is going towards research on treating the symptoms of these diseases. And to me it makes sense, there's no money in curing someone of a disease (like diabetes) but if you can get them coming back to you for the rest of their lives to treat the symptoms, then you're going to make (obviously) a hell of a lot more money.

Think about it this way...if you have a sick patient, what is the first thing you want to do? You want to stabilize them. Once they're not bleeding out, you've ascertained they are breathing okay and heart rate and BP are all within relatively safe ranges, THEN you worry about other things.

I have a rare disease (in remission, but rare enough to be identifying so I won't). When I first got sick there was no research at all being done for my illness. Not enough of us with it, and it is not fatal (thank goodness) it just really farking sucks to have and is very painful. (I'm better now, no need to be sad). Research only started b/c someone with the disease had parents who were able to really get the ball rolling. Even so, what their foundation can do is pretty minimal due to funding and again...not a farkload of us. The medication which only helps deal with the symptoms enough to keep you going...has been used for this disease for over 100 years. And it farking sucks. Many of us have problems with side effects and health problems due to the meds (probably based on risk factors and how many of us develop these problems).

But while we all would still love a cure, until one is found you have to get by as best you can. People who are sick find their illnesses generally limit their lives. MS patients want a cure...but until there is one, they're very vested in medications and therapies that can help improve their quality of life.

Sorry I've been up all night and I'm a wee bit high, so I hope that makes sense. There's more money in treatments because of the demand and need for it. Diabetics have had their lives improved tremendously by such advances. They still absolutely want a cure though. And lots and lots of money goes to that research, as well as cancer, AIDS, and many others.

Tatsuma:notto: When your opinions require the need for thousands of fellow citizens to keep the secret without any real motivation to do so

The same government who couldn't keep Bill Clinton's blowjob a secret was able 3 years later to pull off 9/11 without a hitch

Linda Tripp exposed the blowey, it had nothing to do with "the government not able to keep a secret". I'm not suggesting any part of the government was involved in 9/11, but do you think someone would approach Linda Tripp and ask her to plant bombs in WTC buildings? You don't think there's any plausible way that 1 or 2 people working for 1 person could have planted bombs and kept it a secret?

I fail to see how they're even remotely comparable...try playing devil's advocate for once, it will greatly help your ability to see what is possible and what is not.

Wade_Wilson:I have a serious question about Moon Landing deniers, and I guess this is as good a place as any to ask it: Why?

One thing conspiracy theorists don't like to talk about is how inconsistent their theories are. So all of your suggestions about why the moon landing was faked are out there believed by someone. They contradict other moon landing conspiracies theories but that tends to be ignored. That happens all the time and it's why you can and should dismiss conspiracy theorists.

It's also why all of these "but there really were conspiracies!" posts are still off the mark. Yes, there have been conspiracies in history but those conspiracies have pretty much never been discovered by the internet research of weird loners. So, for example, the CIA really did experiment on people with LSD and try to cover it up. Conspiracy theorists had an idea like that but on the specifics of who, what, where, and why they were totally off. Some had one part right, that it was the CIA, but they thought it was mind control. Some thought it was a hypnosis program or done by space aliens and so on. As a whole the conspiracy theorists were about as accurate as random guessing or all of the idea floated by fiction writers. The actual conspiracy was uncovered by a government investigation.

CrazyCracka420:You don't think there's any plausible way that 1 or 2 people working for 1 person could have planted bombs and kept it a secret?

Nope. Absolutely not. And engaging in some critical thinking will help you easily see why. I would suggest starting by researching how one blows up a building. There's plenty of building demo make things go boom science-y sites out there. Look at the materials involved. Look at the plans needed. The calculations that have to be made. The expertise and precision, and exactly how much explosive is used/needed and all the locations that they MUST be placed in for successful demolish on that scale.

Then think...you know...really think...about how many people that would involve. Let alone how many witnesses to the various acts necessary. Then, most of these people involved? They're farking someone. And they are probably telling that person they're farking some information (a little, or a lot) that they shouldn't be. Then that leads to the abundance of evidence that is created along the way. So it's not some lone kook who swears by the aliens watching him that he saw two men in black in a bar in Hoboken talking about blowing up them there buildings a week before 9/11.

tinfoil-hat maggie:What did you expect other than people coming in and screaming about Truefers?

I actually find some conspiracy theories quite entertaining. I like the ones that hover right at the edge of being believable. Even better are the occasional bizarre true facts that the government kept secret for decades.

odinsposse:Wade_Wilson: I have a serious question about Moon Landing deniers, and I guess this is as good a place as any to ask it: Why?

One thing conspiracy theorists don't like to talk about is how inconsistent their theories are. So all of your suggestions about why the moon landing was faked are out there believed by someone. They contradict other moon landing conspiracies theories but that tends to be ignored. That happens all the time and it's why you can and should dismiss conspiracy theorists.

It's also why all of these "but there really were conspiracies!" posts are still off the mark. Yes, there have been conspiracies in history but those conspiracies have pretty much never been discovered by the internet research of weird loners. So, for example, the CIA really did experiment on people with LSD and try to cover it up. Conspiracy theorists had an idea like that but on the specifics of who, what, where, and why they were totally off. Some had one part right, that it was the CIA, but they thought it was mind control. Some thought it was a hypnosis program or done by space aliens and so on. As a whole the conspiracy theorists were about as accurate as random guessing or all of the idea floated by fiction writers. The actual conspiracy was uncovered by a government investigation.

Ya, might wanna be more careful with that crazy talk. As I said there are no conspiracies./It's all crazy people.//No really./// I mean how could anyone keep secrets?

MacWizard:tinfoil-hat maggie: What did you expect other than people coming in and screaming about Truefers?

I actually find some conspiracy theories quite entertaining. I like the ones that hover right at the edge of being believable. Even better are the occasional bizarre true facts that the government kept secret for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Army

Yea, you find what the OSS did cute, that's nice, I hope hope you have a nice condo and a good retirement plan.What you're all American. Enjoy ; )

Anytime someone has the ANSWER before the QUESTION has been asked, you know they are selling you BS.

I've read the conspiracy theories, since they are wildly entertaining (especially David Ike's). The one similarity that can be drawn between them and religious zealots is that BOTH believe in an ALL POWERFUL unknowable entity that controls their world. The religious zealots call it G-d, the conspiracy theorists call it ZOG (zionist owned government) or Illuminati.

What really stuck out in the article for me was that people who believe in conspiracy theories are looking for control/order to their unpredictable world.

It's not the cover-ups that bothers me, it's the idea that there are organized people that decide to do these things with their life in the first place. And beyond that, they are motivated enough to take note of the possible negative perception of their actions and take measures to hide their activities. If you have enough talent and intelligence to be able to carry out the various operations prescribed conspiracy theories, why live a life a secrecy? If what you're doing is advancing an agenda, how important can that agenda be if no one knows about it?I've always wondered how the "They" actually gets populated. Is it all inbreeding and nepotism? Do they recruit you with some super secret society method? If there are people pulling off these events, those people had to have been born, grown up, etc. in what you would think to be a normal life. How do you get from the layman's side to the secret side? I just want to know because I'd like to be a member.

Most of those were coverups originally exposed by journalists, not really the definition of a "conspiracy theory"And 2?The Mafia: This secret crime society was virtually unknown until the 1960s, when member Joe Valachi first revealed the society's secrets to law enforcement officials.They might not have had the public notoriety but to suggest the Mafia was "unknown" by the government, press and public is rubbish.

Dog Welder:CrazyCracka420: You don't think there's any plausible way that 1 or 2 people working for 1 person could have planted bombs and kept it a secret?

There's no plausible way that only 1 or 2 people could have wired two skyscrapers with enough demolitions (completely unnoticed!) to bring them down.

How many then, 4? 5? To me, it's certainly conceivable that however many people it would take to do such a task, would be capable of keeping the secret. And I don't think it would be hard to go unnoticed either, they would be dressed as construction or maintenance workers. I read reports of construction going on, on floors that were unoccupied leading up to 9/11. I thought I even read somewhere that some floors of the building that were occupied, were "closed" on a weekend prior to 9/11 due to some sort of maintenance.

No I don't think it would be hard at all to blend in, or keep the secret between the limited amount of people needed to carry out such an act.

I don't see how anyone can think it would be that inconceivable. You don't have to believe demolitions brought down WTC 1, 2 or 7 to be able to see that it's certainly possible that it could have been carried out.

tinfoil-hat maggie:MacWizard: tinfoil-hat maggie: What did you expect other than people coming in and screaming about Truefers?

I actually find some conspiracy theories quite entertaining. I like the ones that hover right at the edge of being believable. Even better are the occasional bizarre true facts that the government kept secret for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Army

Yea, you find what the OSS did cute, that's nice, I hope hope you have a nice condo and a good retirement plan.What you're all American. Enjoy ; )

I thought it was rather ingenious and was kind of amazed they were able to keep it a secret until 1999.

No condo. No retirement plan. Not All-American either. Both of my parents' families came from foreign countries (Germany and West Virginia). And not sure what I did to piss you off.

Dog Welder:CrazyCracka420: You don't think there's any plausible way that 1 or 2 people working for 1 person could have planted bombs and kept it a secret?

There's no plausible way that only 1 or 2 people could have wired two skyscrapers with enough demolitions (completely unnoticed!) to bring them down.

Plus the risk of them being discovered, the risk of the explosives being discovered, the risk of them not going off and then being discovered, the risk of them going off too early and the risk of evidence being left being discovered. For what?

If you really want to make people think two planes flew into two buildings why not just fly two planes into the buildings? What difference did the towers falling or not falling make? It was already the worlds most famous terrorist attack even before they fell.

CrazyCracka420:Dog Welder: CrazyCracka420: You don't think there's any plausible way that 1 or 2 people working for 1 person could have planted bombs and kept it a secret?

There's no plausible way that only 1 or 2 people could have wired two skyscrapers with enough demolitions (completely unnoticed!) to bring them down.

How many then, 4? 5? To me, it's certainly conceivable that however many people it would take to do such a task, would be capable of keeping the secret. And I don't think it would be hard to go unnoticed either, they would be dressed as construction or maintenance workers. I read reports of construction going on, on floors that were unoccupied leading up to 9/11. I thought I even read somewhere that some floors of the building that were occupied, were "closed" on a weekend prior to 9/11 due to some sort of maintenance.

No I don't think it would be hard at all to blend in, or keep the secret between the limited amount of people needed to carry out such an act.

I don't see how anyone can think it would be that inconceivable. You don't have to believe demolitions brought down WTC 1, 2 or 7 to be able to see that it's certainly possible that it could have been carried out.

All controlled demolitions have hundreds of explosives in hundreds of locations, for a building anywhere near that size, all linked by detonating cord stretching across the whole building. And each site has to be drilled, which would be very noisy.

And mistakes do happen. Charges fail to go off. The building on half falls etc.The risk of discovery is huge and would leave no room for deniability.

Flint Ironstag:Dog Welder: CrazyCracka420: You don't think there's any plausible way that 1 or 2 people working for 1 person could have planted bombs and kept it a secret?

There's no plausible way that only 1 or 2 people could have wired two skyscrapers with enough demolitions (completely unnoticed!) to bring them down.

Plus the risk of them being discovered, the risk of the explosives being discovered, the risk of them not going off and then being discovered, the risk of them going off too early and the risk of evidence being left being discovered. For what?

If you really want to make people think two planes flew into two buildings why not just fly two planes into the buildings? What difference did the towers falling or not falling make? It was already the worlds most famous terrorist attack even before they fell.

Again, although I believe demolitions brought down the WTC buildings, I'm trying to play devil's advocate here. Asking why or what's the risk is not what I'm getting it. I'm trying to paint the picture that it was certainly possible to rig up buildings for demolition and keep the secret between the people who did it. That is all. If people can't even accept that possibility, they have a very closed mind.

Flint, I remember reading reports about loud construction going on reported by people who worked in the WTC buildings, leading up to 9/11. Again, just because it's unlikely, doesn't mean that it wasn't possible.

MacWizard:tinfoil-hat maggie: MacWizard: tinfoil-hat maggie: What did you expect other than people coming in and screaming about Truefers?

I actually find some conspiracy theories quite entertaining. I like the ones that hover right at the edge of being believable. Even better are the occasional bizarre true facts that the government kept secret for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Army

Yea, you find what the OSS did cute, that's nice, I hope hope you have a nice condo and a good retirement plan.What you're all American. Enjoy ; )

I thought it was rather ingenious and was kind of amazed they were able to keep it a secret until 1999.

No condo. No retirement plan. Not All-American either. Both of my parents' families came from foreign countries (Germany and West Virginia). And not sure what I did to piss you off.

Dude you didn't "piss me off" really, I 'm just playing off things people say because I shouldn't say much.And well I've already said too much.Now then don't go looking into the OSS and who was in it and well definitely don't look into the later years when they became the CIA, well really I mean it's all a boring read.I just don't understand why people believe in conspiracies.