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Originally posted by Zeppelin4They should have done open beta at least two weeks before EA if not three. Keep it going until you fix all the major issues. Problem solved.

Too many shoulda, woulda, coulda with this whole fiasco.

Fact still is this the third MMORPG title SquEnix is launching.

You don't say, any other widely known facts you want to point out? They'll get their shit together eventually. Stuff happens with MMOs launch realese, you either bare with it or go somewhere else. If the game is truly great then it will be a success regardless if it had a good or rocky start.

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Originally posted by Mors-Subita

Originally posted by RufftimesThe biggest mistake SE made with ARR is that they didn't launch it like FFXI. They should have released in in Japan only for a year prior to NA market get a chance to play it. Bottom line is the NA crowd is has zero patience, zero tolerance and jumps at any reason to find fault. If they had just released in Japan only, they would have had months to iron out all the bugs, get everything running perfectly, and then gone for a NA launch. Then the only thing we'd have to whine about is how we didn't get the game sooner.....

Hmmm, that is possible... or they could have done it right to start with...

Let's try a little hypothetical, shall we?

Two companies put together services(one each), they then announce that they will be doing a beta of the service for 58 hours...

During that time 20% of each of their entire-user base is affected by an error, let's call it 3102 for the sake of argument, and many of them can't connect for more than 50 hours.

Both companies announce that they fixed the problem and there is no need to worry.

Now one company then holds another beta to make sure that the problem does not re-occur.

The other company assumes that their fix should be good enough and there is no further need for testing...

Which of those companies do you think is going to have problems on launch day? Which of those 2 do you think represents SE?

Now before you go saying that this problem has nothing to do with the first problem, I will respectfully disagree on 3 counts. First, people are still locked out with 3102(granted not as many since the majority of players can't even play). Second, 3102 was associated with capacity issues. Third, their big stress test never had a chance to really stress their capacity because 20% of the population was locked out for as much as ALL of it, and the rest were having spotty connectivity(including, but not limited to 90,000).

As far as I can tell, they didn't prep properly, they didn't bother testing their fixes, and now there are apologists like you who are insisting that it doesn't matter and it could have happened to anyone. You are absolutely right, it could have happened to anyone who didn't bother taking basic precautions or using any common sense.

I never said it could have happened to anyone, I said it DOES happen to EVERYONE. Every launch goes exactly like this. Even WOW.....

That's why I don't do early access. The three days means nothing six months into the game.

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What I don't get is why the launch in Japan (with presumably the same game code and server technology) was flawless and the NA/EU launch was and is so troubled. I played all day today on a Japanese server with a newly-rolled character, and it was a joy. I'm not even sure that I'll return to Adamantoise when the NA server issues get sorted.

...and it really is just server issues. The game itself, on all servers, seems solid. Reminds me of the old joke, though: 'Other than *that*, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?'.

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Originally posted by Zeppelin4They should have done open beta at least two weeks before EA if not three. Keep it going until you fix all the major issues. Problem solved.

Too many shoulda, woulda, coulda with this whole fiasco.

Fact still is this the third MMORPG title SquEnix is launching.

You don't say, any other widely known facts you want to point out? They'll get their shit together eventually. Stuff happens with MMOs launch realese, you either bare with it or go somewhere else. If the game is truly great then it will be a success regardless if it had a good or rocky start.

Just saying. Anything else is just supposition on my end and I'm done with that.

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Originally posted by IMBanksWhat I don't get is why the launch in Japan (with presumably the same game code and server technology) was flawless and the NA/EU launch was and is so troubled. I played all day today on a Japanese server with a newly-rolled character, and it was a joy. I'm not even sure that I'll return to Adamantoise when the NA server issues get sorted.

...and it really is just server issues. The game itself, on all servers, seems solid. Reminds me of the old joke, though: 'Other than *that*, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?'.

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Originally posted by RufftimesThe biggest mistake SE made with ARR is that they didn't launch it like FFXI. They should have released in in Japan only for a year prior to NA market get a chance to play it. Bottom line is the NA crowd is has zero patience, zero tolerance and jumps at any reason to find fault. If they had just released in Japan only, they would have had months to iron out all the bugs, get everything running perfectly, and then gone for a NA launch. Then the only thing we'd have to whine about is how we didn't get the game sooner.....

They HAD months to iron all this crap out. They didn't use that time at all to stress test the game properly. As many have already said, these aren't exactly 'new' issues. These bugs have been in the game forever, and keep coming back.

It's clearly a much larger problem that they just keep bandaging, instead of properly dealing with it. It's sloppy work, to say the least.

While I agree with you about the general impatience of the NA market, they have a right to be annoyed / angry this time. I can't think of ANY country where this kind of incompetence would be tolerated, outside of maybe India or Uganda.

But hey, it's not Squeenix's fault. They just can't seem to manage their game. It's our fault for expecting them to do a good job. Right?

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Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by RufftimesThe biggest mistake SE made with ARR is that they didn't launch it like FFXI. They should have released in in Japan only for a year prior to NA market get a chance to play it. Bottom line is the NA crowd is has zero patience, zero tolerance and jumps at any reason to find fault. If they had just released in Japan only, they would have had months to iron out all the bugs, get everything running perfectly, and then gone for a NA launch. Then the only thing we'd have to whine about is how we didn't get the game sooner.....

They HAD months to iron all this crap out. They didn't use that time at all to stress test the game properly. As many have already said, these aren't exactly 'new' issues. These bugs have been in the game forever, and keep coming back.

It's clearly a much larger problem that they just keep bandaging, instead of properly dealing with it. It's sloppy work, to say the least.

While I agree with you about the general impatience of the NA market, they have a right to be annoyed / angry this time. I can't think of ANY country where this kind of incompetence would be tolerated, outside of maybe India or Uganda.

But hey, it's not Squeenix's fault. They just can't seem to manage their game. It's our fault for expecting them to do a good job. Right?

Once again.......please name one single other MMO where you didn't read these exact same threads at launch?

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Originally posted by Mithrandolir

Originally posted by IMBanksWhat I don't get is why the launch in Japan (with presumably the same game code and server technology) was flawless and the NA/EU launch was and is so troubled. I played all day today on a Japanese server with a newly-rolled character, and it was a joy. I'm not even sure that I'll return to Adamantoise when the NA server issues get sorted.

...and it really is just server issues. The game itself, on all servers, seems solid. Reminds me of the old joke, though: 'Other than *that*, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?'.

Seems it's a data center issue, region specific.

It's because they have one server for Japan, ran in Japan.

And then a duplicate server for the entire rest of the planet, run in Canada. It doesn't matter how much you like Japan, their population doesn't even come close to NA, let alone NA + Europe + the rest of the world combined. I think the last figure I heard was that the NA servers were getting at least 3x the amount of traffic as the JPN ones.

This is why I mentioned they needed to add more NA servers for Open Beta. Population tends to increase fairly dramatically for launches. Apparently they didn't remember that fact from the first 2 games they launched, though.

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Originally posted by RufftimesThe biggest mistake SE made with ARR is that they didn't launch it like FFXI. They should have released in in Japan only for a year prior to NA market get a chance to play it. Bottom line is the NA crowd is has zero patience, zero tolerance and jumps at any reason to find fault. If they had just released in Japan only, they would have had months to iron out all the bugs, get everything running perfectly, and then gone for a NA launch. Then the only thing we'd have to whine about is how we didn't get the game sooner.....

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Originally posted by RufftimesThe biggest mistake SE made with ARR is that they didn't launch it like FFXI. They should have released in in Japan only for a year prior to NA market get a chance to play it. Bottom line is the NA crowd is has zero patience, zero tolerance and jumps at any reason to find fault. If they had just released in Japan only, they would have had months to iron out all the bugs, get everything running perfectly, and then gone for a NA launch. Then the only thing we'd have to whine about is how we didn't get the game sooner.....

Except that they seem to be running pretty smoothly on the Japanese servers. I played on there for an hour or two today, but I have trouble bringing myself to get too invested. It doesn't seem to have helped them figure out what is wrong with the NA servers, where I would really prefer to be.

I'm just as down about the whole early access fiasco as anyone else, but I really hope this doesn't have a huge impact on numbers. I've been sarcastic, and grouchy, and disappointed, but I'm still going to play. SE is going to have to do a lousy job for a longer period of time than 2 days to drive me away.

I would like to see them make progress of some sort, though. It's been one problem after the next, and none of their downtime seems to have solved anything. If all this downtime over the first 48 hours hasn't fixed anything, when do they finally say, "Hey, it's pretty broken, and we need to take everything down for a while (days) and figure stuff out. We clearly weren't ready for a launch, or even an early access period."

I'm just waiting for a F2P overhyped sandbox WoW clone with full PVP, epic raid bosses, instanced group content, and Crysis-quality graphics to come out. That, or something fun.

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Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Mithrandolir

Originally posted by IMBanksWhat I don't get is why the launch in Japan (with presumably the same game code and server technology) was flawless and the NA/EU launch was and is so troubled. I played all day today on a Japanese server with a newly-rolled character, and it was a joy. I'm not even sure that I'll return to Adamantoise when the NA server issues get sorted.

...and it really is just server issues. The game itself, on all servers, seems solid. Reminds me of the old joke, though: 'Other than *that*, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?'.

Seems it's a data center issue, region specific.

It's because they have one server for Japan, ran in Japan.

And then a duplicate server for the entire rest of the planet, run in Canada. It doesn't matter how much you like Japan, their population doesn't even come close to NA, let alone NA + Europe + the rest of the world combined. I think the last figure I heard was that the NA servers were getting at least 3x the amount of traffic as the JPN ones.

This is why I mentioned they needed to add more NA servers for Open Beta. Population tends to increase fairly dramatically for launches. Apparently they didn't remember that fact from the first 2 games they launched, though.

That's the thing though. The population is high because of the cheap access to the game at the moment. Only $5 will net you access to the game for a week (23rd-30th). When they retail codes are required to continue I guarantee you'll see a substantial drop in population. And of those that continue to play after 30 days, you'll see another drop in population. Honestly since there are no regional locks, you can bet your bottom dollar that RMT players are trying to flood the game in order to establish a foothold.

"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

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Originally posted by Zeppelin4They should have done open beta at least two weeks before EA if not three. Keep it going until you fix all the major issues. Problem solved.

Too many shoulda, woulda, coulda with this whole fiasco.

Fact still is this the third MMORPG title SquEnix is launching.

And it being the third is supposed to make allowances for them botching the launch. TSW was the third mmo from funcom, a company that has on record two very horrible launches, aside from a few bugged out quests that whole game launched fairly smoothly.

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Originally posted by RufftimesThe biggest mistake SE made with ARR is that they didn't launch it like FFXI. They should have released in in Japan only for a year prior to NA market get a chance to play it. Bottom line is the NA crowd is has zero patience, zero tolerance and jumps at any reason to find fault. If they had just released in Japan only, they would have had months to iron out all the bugs, get everything running perfectly, and then gone for a NA launch. Then the only thing we'd have to whine about is how we didn't get the game sooner.....

If we don't hold companies to higher standards, then what would be the incentive for companies to strive for? If absolutely zero people cared about whether or not they are able to play games and never issued a single complaint, companies will just carry on with the day as if everything is good and running normal when in fact it isn't. It is on the customers to provide the feedback needed for companies so they know whether they are doing a good job or a bad job and can adjust accordingly.

Complaints aren't as bad as people like yourselves make it out to be, they are actually quite necessary. It helps get things done whether you believe it or not. If I pay for something, I have expectations that I'll have access to a particular product as promised. The OP comes off as condescending and seemingly not understanding of anyone else besides him/herself. This is the type of attitude that needs to go if a genre is to progress.

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Originally posted by Ramonski7

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Mithrandolir

Originally posted by IMBanksWhat I don't get is why the launch in Japan (with presumably the same game code and server technology) was flawless and the NA/EU launch was and is so troubled. I played all day today on a Japanese server with a newly-rolled character, and it was a joy. I'm not even sure that I'll return to Adamantoise when the NA server issues get sorted.

...and it really is just server issues. The game itself, on all servers, seems solid. Reminds me of the old joke, though: 'Other than *that*, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?'.

Seems it's a data center issue, region specific.

It's because they have one server for Japan, ran in Japan.

And then a duplicate server for the entire rest of the planet, run in Canada. It doesn't matter how much you like Japan, their population doesn't even come close to NA, let alone NA + Europe + the rest of the world combined. I think the last figure I heard was that the NA servers were getting at least 3x the amount of traffic as the JPN ones.

This is why I mentioned they needed to add more NA servers for Open Beta. Population tends to increase fairly dramatically for launches. Apparently they didn't remember that fact from the first 2 games they launched, though.

That's the thing though. The population is high because of the cheap access to the game at the moment. Only $5 will net you access to the game for a week (23rd-30th). When they retail codes are required to continue I guarantee you'll see a substantial drop in population. And of those that continue to play after 30 days, you'll see another drop in population. Honestly since there are no regional locks, you can bet your bottom dollar that RMT players are trying to flood the game in order to establish a foothold.

Well duh. Every MMO launch in history has an unusually high population spike at launch. That doesn't mean the best action to take is to basically say "F it, we won't have those players anyway". No, the best action is to try and KEEP as many of those players as possible. This is MMO launch 101. And given that SE has already launched 2 MMOs, they should know this by now.F

Furthermore they had the pre-order numbers for their own game. All the data they needed to prepare for this was there. They just chose not to utilize it.

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Originally posted by Zeppelin4They should have done open beta at least two weeks before EA if not three. Keep it going until you fix all the major issues. Problem solved.

Too many shoulda, woulda, coulda with this whole fiasco.

Fact still is this the third MMORPG title SquEnix is launching.

And it being the third is supposed to make allowances for them botching the launch. TSW was the third mmo from funcom, a company that has on record two very horrible launches, aside from a few bugged out quests that whole game launched fairly smoothly.

I should've been more elaborate. Definitely not what I was implying. Third MMO so they have no excuse.

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Originally posted by RufftimesThe biggest mistake SE made with ARR is that they didn't launch it like FFXI. They should have released in in Japan only for a year prior to NA market get a chance to play it. Bottom line is the NA crowd is has zero patience, zero tolerance and jumps at any reason to find fault. If they had just released in Japan only, they would have had months to iron out all the bugs, get everything running perfectly, and then gone for a NA launch. Then the only thing we'd have to whine about is how we didn't get the game sooner.....

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It is not possible to stress test the game to simulate the enormous amount of players they had this week. Most players dont bother with a stress test because they are for limited amounts of playtime.

As far as I know, the cause of everything (the instance server/duty finder fail) did not happen during the stress test. The first 3 fix attempts caused no login issues. its only after today's, when they decided to throttle logins, that they had an issue with the logins.

I dont understand the lack of queue, but a longer stress test wouldnt have solved the instance issue.

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Originally posted by RufftimesThe biggest mistake SE made with ARR is that they didn't launch it like FFXI. They should have released in in Japan only for a year prior to NA market get a chance to play it. Bottom line is the NA crowd is has zero patience, zero tolerance and jumps at any reason to find fault. If they had just released in Japan only, they would have had months to iron out all the bugs, get everything running perfectly, and then gone for a NA launch. Then the only thing we'd have to whine about is how we didn't get the game sooner.....

Then their biggest mistake would have been to listen to you. The ARR is basically everything that was supposed to be in FFXIV but wasnt implamented. So there is no need for them to to an early release for the game in Japan before an American release. You would know this if you actually read the articles that lead up to the launch of Beta.

"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"