None of those is a discrete server any more. CRZ ended them. Pvp, yes. Server, no. I'm not being untruthful, the names need changing to battlegroup.

Their still the same servers, you can argue that if you get zoned onto another realm.., then you're technically not playing on the server you signed up for, but in all cases, you could extend this to ending realms when they implemented the LFD / LFR tools, which isn't the case.

Personally I see no valid claims of any kind in your replies (if anything only false claims about how the game had run for 8 years, that implies you haven't been playing for to long), merely some upset little muppet who's now lashing out on anyone who isn't agreeing with him.

Players missed World PvP, so blizzard implemented CRZ and gave them World PvP.., some players who started in Wrath or later, now complain because they thought World PvP was level appropriate scenario's

One problematic thing thesedays on world pvp/ganking is resilence.. as a rogue i dont see any chance to do dailies as sub and pvp gear instead of my pve gear which leads that im easy target for those who are just ganking. Sure its fun for me to go and gank with pvp gear, when ppl are doing their dailies in pve gear, but i wouldnt call it pvp. in vanilla when world pvp existed, there was no resi and ppl were on same "line" when they wondrered arounf world.

With respect, I'm not sure any of you have added anything new to this thread in the last 40 pages. All you are doing is repeating points you made ad nauseum using different words and analagies. Repetition isn't discussion.

Your views are diametrically opposed and it's clear that one will not convince the other or compromise.

Can you give it a rest and see how it plays out in a few months ingame?

With respect, I'm not sure any of you have added anything new to this thread in the last 40 pages. All you are doing is repeating points you made ad nauseum using different words and analagies. Repetition isn't discussion.

Your views are diametrically opposed and it's clear that one will not convince the other or compromise.

Can you give it a rest and see how it plays out in a few months ingame?

I'd already jacked in responding to Endus for that very reason, and said so.

PvP servers never promised server-exclusive world PvP. Provide a blue source or policy document to back up that claim, or admit you're making it up.

The main reason people complain about it in LFD/LFR is because those are inherently cooperative environments, and one player not cooperating throws a wrench into the works.

PvP is inherently combative, not cooperative. Other players acting like mouth-frothing ravenous baboons just encourages more world PvP, which is the entire point. The 4chan effect, if anything, is a boon for CRZ where it's a detriment for LFD/LFR. Not least because those babboons are often poor at PvP against other level-capped players, making them ripe and easy pickings for counter-ganking.

Yeah, they kind of did, for a long while. Maybe not explicitly, but sure as hell in practice. Either case, if all people are crying about is that they're not getting ONLY ganked by members of their own server, then they really need to get a grip.

Rest of your post was spot on, though.

Personally I think the whole thing could be solved by 1:1 ratio server-only BGs with mediocre rewards, which would incidentally auto-self-balance the servers, sloooooowly and little by little over the years.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 06:33 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Seegtease

Really? So the only thing we can make a valid complaint about are things that violate the original promises? Anything that was not specifically stated is fair game for change and we should shut up and take it?

Come on. Just because something isn't stated doesn't mean it's a reasonable thing to change. It's absolutely impossible to cover everything. If they added 30 NPCs to every zone on PvE servers that flew around and one-shot people randomly, could we not complain? I mean, after all, they never promised they wouldn't do that. Or maybe they could just make an AoE spell that covers Azeroth entirely dealing 1,000,000 damage to all players every 5 minutes. Hey, I can't show you where Blizzard said they would never do such a thing, so I guess it's totally acceptable.

No, just because it's not a broken promise doesn't mean we can't (or shouldn't) complain about it.

Do you remember the time that Blizzard was going to reveal everybody's real name on the forums instead of using character names? You remember how much people flipped out over it? And you must know they cancelled the idea. Why? Because we complained. The CRZ situation is quite similar. Sure, there were a few people here and there who wanted more populated zones, but ultimately, more people dislike it than like it. However, Blizzard made the change because they want people to play the game the way THEY, the designers, intended. The only way to make them change their mind is to be as loud as we were about the whole "show your real name" issue.

The RealID was a noble way to counteract this:

But sadly that was not to be, for identity theft and persecution and bullying issues, obviously.

Originally Posted by Deja Thoris

Endus / Injin.

With respect, I'm not sure any of you have added anything new to this thread in the last 40 pages. All you are doing is repeating points you made ad nauseum using different words and analagies. Repetition isn't discussion.

Your views are diametrically opposed and it's clear that one will not convince the other or compromise.

Can you give it a rest and see how it plays out in a few months ingame?

I smiled. It's still interesting. Keeping this thread going makes more people aware of the fact that THEY NEED TO GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE IF THEY DON'T LIKE DODGING. Or something. You get the point. People need to start taking responsibility for their choices. Nobody holds a gun to someone's head and says "You better roll on a pvp server or I'll blow your brains out."

Does CRZ exist? - Yes
Did it enhance or increase World PvP - Yes
Is it going away? - No
Do people just need to get over it and either move on, reroll, or transfer? - yes

Seems like all this bickering back and forth about how it was and how it is, is pointless. Blizzard won't give free xfers and they will not reverse or opt out CRZ. People need to suck it up or unsub. The game has changed (in my opinion for the better) and it will NEVER be what it was. The sooner people accept that fact, the sooner this thread finally dies.

Seems like all this bickering back and forth about how it was and how it is, is pointless. Blizzard won't give free xfers and they will not reverse or opt out CRZ. People need to suck it up or unsub. The game has changed (in my opinion for the better) and it will NEVER be what it was. The sooner people accept that fact, the sooner this thread finally dies.

why should people pay a penalty/transfer for each character they leveld on a dead pvp realm ?
Those people will sooner quit playing, and so blizzard will lose more cash-flow in the end .

why should people pay a penalty/transfer for each character they leveld on a dead pvp realm ?

The same reason anyone ever pays for a transfer. You don't like your current server, so you pay to move to another. This reason isn't magically more important than any other.

Those people will sooner quit playing, and so blizzard will lose more cash-flow in the end .

Honestly, that remains to be seen. We're talking about the few people on PvP realms who don't like the PvP rule set they chose. I seriously doubt that's a majority, or even a significant minority. Even if they DO quit, well, people quit all the time, and for plenty of different reasons. It doesn't mean they won't come BACK, either.

The same reason anyone ever pays for a transfer. You don't like your current server, so you pay to move to another. This reason isn't magically more important than any other.

it's not about the server it's about the way the changed the gameplay with introducing CRZ.
but because i'm not want to ruin other peoples game play by claiming that CRZ has to be removed , i'm willing to move to a PVE realm but i REFUSE to pay for it.
because Blizzard changed the game play.

it's not about the server it's about the way the changed the gameplay with introducing CRZ.
but because i'm not want to ruin other peoples game play by claiming that CRZ has to be removed , i'm willing to move to a PVE realm but i REFUSE to pay for it.
because Blizzard changed the game play.

Remember when you bought the box with the game? Remember the website you went to to download it after you paid for it? Remember the part where it says "ONLINE GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE"?

You don't automatically get to have the game stay exactly the same way as you personally want it, for ever. If so, I'd personally prefer the last bit of classic vanilla when they started getting a clue about spec & class balance but everything was mostly just about having a good reputation on your server so you could get gear and get help when you needed it.

Lol. I actually just leveled a Monk from 1 to 90 in a PVP realm.. I've been killed to the point where I have had to log off or do dungeons. And I enjoyed it. It gave me good laughs and it adds more of a atmosphere to the game :P I mean whats the point of rolling on a PvP realm if you're going to complain every time you die.. Use your money to transfer..

Lol. I actually just leveled a Monk from 1 to 90 in a PVP realm.. I've been killed to the point where I have had to log off or do dungeons. And I enjoyed it. It gave me good laughs and it adds more of a atmosphere to the game :P I mean whats the point of rolling on a PvP realm if you're going to complain every time you die.. Use your money to transfer..

I don't think a normal person rolls PvP and complains every time they DIE. I wouldn't mind dying so long as the dying was a result of my lack of skill rather than there being no competition.

I like the competitive nature of PvP, but there is no competitive nature in most of what people call "world PvP".

I don't think a normal person rolls PvP and complains every time they DIE. I wouldn't mind dying so long as the dying was a result of my lack of skill rather than there being no competition.

I like the competitive nature of PvP, but there is no competitive nature in most of what people call "world PvP".

Umm, it is a lack of skill if you can't figure out how to level in BGs and LFD without getting ganked. Or level on a PVE server and then transfer over. Or find some friends. That would be "social skill" to get them to watch your back.

TLDR; just stay in the cities and queue up if your lack of skill gets you ganked on a PVP realm while leveling.

---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 07:35 PM ----------

Originally Posted by lolalola

Oh come on, that's such a CYA-argument. Of course it may change. It will change every minor patch. Doh!
.

What would you prefer - that they don't tell people that the experience will in fact change? Then they'd be crying about "OMG Y U NO TEL ME GAME CHANGGE???!!1"

Umm, it is a lack of skill if you can't figure out how to level in BGs and LFD without getting ganked. Or level on a PVE server and then transfer over. Or find some friends. That would be "social skill" to get them to watch your back.

TLDR; just stay in the cities and queue up if your lack of skill gets you ganked on a PVP realm while leveling.

I think my point went over your head. There's no skill involved for either party when a 90 kills a 30. It's not competitive PvP (which I do enjoy). If they had a server that had competitive world PvP but had restrictions of some kind to ensure battles are two-sided, I'd play it. I know others would too.

What would you prefer - that they don't tell people that the experience will in fact change? Then they'd be crying about "OMG Y U NO TEL ME GAME CHANGGE???!!1"

I could put that label on anything. On a cup of coffee: "your life experience may change". While driving a car "driving experience may change". It is a meaningless sentence. Anything can change. Nothing is permanent except changes. The only thing which would force them a guaranteed experience is... drumroll... a contract.

And EULAs give you no rights whatsoever in addition to the rights you had before the EULA. They restrict your right. Only copyleft licenses (which are themselves copyright licenses) grant you additional rights, and contracts themselves.

As for CYA you don't seem to understand what it means. 1) we have a stupidly vague statement like here 2) we can then refer almost any argument to this statement.

Like someone complains about rogue being underpowered: "well they did say your experience may change..."

Except with or without that argument, they would be allowed to make such change anyway. Whereas if the servers are unreachable for 30 days your experience "has also changed" but they didn't allow you access to their servers which is a breach of... drumroll... contract. Even if their EULA would say they wouldn't be accountable, they still would be because those laws are above EULA (which, individually, aren't even proven to be upheld in court).

I think my point went over your head. There's no skill involved for either party when a 90 kills a 30. It's not competitive PvP (which I do enjoy). If they had a server that had competitive world PvP but had restrictions of some kind to ensure battles are two-sided, I'd play it. I know others would too.

Do you want level-restricted PvP with a focus on equality in team strength? Then what you want is Battlegrounds or Arena.
Do you want voluntary world PvP where there's still a risk of being attacked, but only if you want to get involved in PvP action? PvE servers. Just flag yourself for PvP, and there you go.

It's not possible to deliver "competitive world PvP". That defeats the entire purpose of world PvP. You're talking about battlegrounds, where you have specific goals and the teams are balanced according to level and number. World PvP is about unrestricted PvP against any player you meet in the world setting. That's what people mean by "world PvP". If you place level and number restrictions, it's no longer "world PvP", it's "instanced PvP against a selected team designed to match your team in both level and number". It's battlegrounds. Except even then, it wouldn't be balanced, since you'd have plenty of people who go about their PvE day without getting involved, meaning it would be easy for one "team" to all coordinate to slaughter the other "team" that isn't working together.

And any further restrictions just make it even less practical or useful.

Nobody's saying that you have to like world PvP as it currently exists. We're just pointing out that if you don't, the PvP experience that does match what you describe is already available. It's on the PvE servers. And there's no point changing the PvP ruleset, since the issue is nonexistent.

It's like a guy walking into the girl's washroom and complaining about the lack of urinals. We get it; you're in the wrong spot. The correct response is to go to the right bathroom in the first place, not to demand they install urinals in the girl's washroom.