Reader-Inspired Course Corrections From YMB

by Khadija Nassif on February 6th, 2011

The willingness to listen with humility, to accept correction, and to engage in self-correction are qualities that I value. In that spirit, I’ve decided to imitate one of my favorite bloggers, Fabius Maximus, by doing an ongoing series of posts documenting instances (as they occur) where readers have either corrected my misconceptions or pointed out blind spots in my thinking. As I’ve always stressed, I’m definitely not any sort of guru, and I learn a lot from listening to the readers. Here’s the most recent reader-inspired course correction in my thinking―a reader named YMB pointed out something I had missed.

During a recent post, I said,

WHEN YOU’RE THE ONLY ONE DOING SOMETHING, THAT’S A CLUE THAT WHATEVER YOU’RE DOING IS NOT A GOOD IDEA

Here and at the previous blog, we’ve discussed a number of self-defeating behaviors that only African-American women engage in on a mass level:

. . . African-American women are alone on this planet in characterizing all romantic interest from men outside their racial group as a negative “fetish.” As I said during this post,

I would answer “both.” Yes, non-Asian men have stereotypes about Asian women. However, Asian women are shrewd enough to work those stereotypes to their individual (and indirectly to their collective) advantage! This is a lesson that more African-American women need to learn. We’re so preoccupied with issues of political correctness that we cut our own throats in terms of maximizing our marriage options. Nobody else operates like this. Certainly not Black men, including the many Pan-African Black male activists who talked “Black” this and that, and married White women. Including that scholar-hero of the ultra-Black, “Blacker than thou” crowd,

Cheikh Anta Diop (yep the very one considered one of the greatest African historians of the 20th century a senegalese) married Louise Marie Maes, a French woman in 1953 in Paris.

Many African-American women worry about nonblack men having a so-called “fetish” with the traits that these men find attractive. Let’s think about this for a moment. We’re actually bothered and offended when a nonblack man finds our West African-derived skin tones, features, and hair textures attractive. Why is it called a “fetish” if a nonblack man is able to appreciate Black women’s beauty? Meanwhile, we live among a collective of African-American men who are open about their hatred of those same West African complexions, features and hair textures in women! [See statements by creatures such as Yung Berg, NeYo, and so on. See statements and actions by countless other African-American men.]

And instead of calling these Black men the anti-Black racists that they are, we water down the language we use to describe what these racist Black males refer to as their “preferences.” So, there’s a post that asks, Does Hip Hop Like Light Skinned Girls Too Much? I need not say much more about how that question is being framed. It’s sort of like asking, “Does the Klan like white sheets and hoods too much?” In both cases, phrasing the question and the so-called “preference” that way deliberately misses the point.

Back to “fetishes.” Does it still count as a so-called “fetish” when the nonblack man is willing and eager to make a particular Black woman his wife first, and then the mother of his children? This type of “fetish” seems so much more respectful of the woman involved than a male who never offers marriage, and is willing to see his children by that woman born out of wedlock.

Instead of screening, dating, and possibly marrying nonblack men who might have a so-called “fetish” about their undiluted West African features that operates FOR them, many African-American women restrict themselves to dating Black men who have openly-declared fetishes that operate AGAINST them. How crazy is that?

YMB MENTIONED AN IMPORTANT POINT THAT I MISSED ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF BLACK WOMEN’S “FETISH” PARANOIA ABOUT NONBLACK MEN APPRECIATING THEIR BEAUTY

During this same conversation, YMB said:

I don’t think that BW concocted the whole “fetish” and “exotic” paranoia, although I think the lack of belief of our own worth and beauty is why so many BW have bought into that mindset. We are the only race of women that castigates rather than celebrates their uniqueness.

The “fetish” tactic was thought up by WW in an effort to tar and stifle WM’s noted interest in AW. The difference being that when AW were presented with this, they rejected it wholesale as a ploy to paint genuine attraction to non-white women as freakish and wrong and to block WM from elevating AW to the same status as WW. Meanwhile BW got the same message and thought, “he likes my kinky hair, brown skin, and African features– how unnatural!”

She’s right. This “fetish” talk was originally a weapon that White women forged to block Asian women’s access to marrying quality, “Alpha” White men. It was a real-world example of attempted “inception.” Asian women were smart and self-confident enough to turn that “fetish” idea to their own individual and collective advantage. Only African-American women (and similarly situated Western Black women) were mentally beaten down and silly enough to get caught in that worrying about a “fetish” snare. It’s yet another example of how easy it is for outsiders to successfully perform “inception” on African-Americans. As I mentioned during this post,

The pity is that, unlike in the movie, most African-Americans don’t have to be drugged to be vulnerable to inception. Simply hearing somebody else say something is enough to influence most of us.

ONE SAFEGUARD AGAINST INCEPTION IS TO ALWAYS ASK “CUI BONO?”

Who benefits from the suggestion or argument that Person X is giving me? Now, it is possible to have win-win situations where Person X benefits along with Person Y with whom they’re speaking. But most African-American women are not presented with win-win sort of advice or political arguments. Usually it’s I Win, And You (African-American woman) Lose advice. Most African-American women are surrounded by people who are operating a zero-sum game—people who win when that Black woman loses.

So, we need to learn to constantly ask ourselves, “Cui bono?”

Who benefits from things (including my actions) remaining the same?

Who benefits from me making a change of some sort?

Who benefits from the arguments that are being presented to me?

Who benefits from the course of action being advocated?

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU PONDERED “CUI BONO”?

I’d like to hear from the audience about the most recent examples in which you thought through the question “Cui bono?” My most recent incident was during a previous conversation when I discussed the case of Ms. Kelley Williams-Bolar and said,

Non-African-American outsiders (such as the libertarians) who give verbal support to thieves like this woman usually have some sort of ideological axe to grind. They wouldn’t support this woman stealing the benefit of their property taxes. They don’t want this woman or her daughter reaping the benefit of the taxes they paid into their personal school districts. White libertarians verbally support this woman because they want to destroy the unions. They are supporting this woman’s thievery only as a means to an end (destroying unions).

Cultivating critical thinking skills can mean the difference between abundant life and a needlessly diminished life.

ADDENDUM

I forgot to mention the following:

IF THERE’S SOMETHING YOU WANT ME TO RETHINK, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SEND ME SOME INFORMATION IN SUPPORT OF YOUR VIEWS

As you can see, at times I make course corrections in my views in response to readers’ input. I’ve never been in training to be Joseph Stalin. I prefer to focus the conversations on our own thought processes and actions, since those things are under our direct control as individuals. So, I’d rather not spend a lot of time rehashing what “they” (whoever “they” might be) are doing to “us.”

However, I am inviting audience members to use this and future Reader-Inspired Course Correction posts to raise other points (of disagreement or otherwise) that you want me to rethink and reconsider. This ties into my overall policy about dissent: I have no problem with dissent about the means that are suggested for achieving the goal of lifestyle optimization for African-American women and girls. However, I refuse to engage in lengthy discussions with people who are opposed to the very goal of lifestyle optimization for African-American women and girls. Of course, there’s no guarantee that I’ll change my mind; but I will consider all information that’s put forth.

PLEASE ALSO CONSIDER THIS AN “OPEN FORUM” OPPORTUNITY

This invitation doesn’t only include points of disagreement. Feel welcome to bring up issues you’d like to discuss that I haven’t talked about. Please consider these Reader-Inspired Course Correction posts as “open forum” posts.

228 Responses to “Reader-Inspired Course Corrections From YMB”

“Considering that from what one WAOD commenter said about how most BW readers at a popular Black gossip site were NOT offended by that commercial, then I feel that it’s not worth the time & energy investment to enforce the sanctions it would take to discourage these BW from running around spreading that “bottom of the barrel” hate speech. I feel that our time & energy would be better invested in separating ourselves—in EVERY way possible—from these deranged masses of BW who can’t be offended by anything, no matter how insulting or degrading it is toward them.”

I agree with this. As a reader named Cissy said on Halima’s blog when the subject came up of how we’re going to turn around the image of black women:

“As much as I hate to say it, the chances of most black women deciding to adopt the point of view of the typical reader of this BWE blog (and other BWE blogs) is very slim to none.

Let’s not kid ourselves, 95% of our sisters will NOT be joining us on our journey to a good life. With this in mind, it is useless to talk about improving the image of black women in the aggregate. The realistic goal is to hope that people will be acutely aware that there are some black women that are different (in a good way) at some point in the near future.

We are a long way from even this modest goal right now.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So I’m in agreement with that, unfortunately. Particularly the part about making people in the general population ACUTELY AWARE that there is a substantial amount of black women that are not mammies, mules and jezebels, that do not “ride and die” with criminals, that do NOT eschew social graces, education, correct grammer, a sophisticated, demure, feminine appearance, or men of other races, and so on. If we could just get to there (and soon!), I’d be happy with that accomplishment in the short-term.

Then we can work on the problem of how to drag “alla our sistas”, even if it’s while they’re kicking and screaming, out of the abyss.

You quoted a commenter from Halima’s blog who said, “Let’s not kid ourselves, 95% of our sisters will NOT be joining us on our journey to a good life. With this in mind, it is useless to talk about improving the image of black women in the aggregate. The realistic goal is to hope that people will be acutely aware that there are some black women that are different (in a good way) at some point in the near future.”

I 100% cosign. I understand how difficult it can be at times, but in order to succeed in carving out out own better image and opportunities, it’s imperative to write off the masses BF zombies.

BW need to do something for THEMSELVES – PUBLICY. We are being attacked heavily PUBLICLY and the way to fight back is to PUBLICLY say we have had enough.

Neecy, I know you posted this on Halima’s blog and I tried to respond over there but something happened to my comment.

Anyway, I’ve thought about this and here’s the solution. If you are at least 35 years old, you should declare that you’re going to run for president of the U.S. I’m totally serious and this is why.

You wouldn’t be running to win. You’d be running for the same reason Ralph Nader ALWAYS runs. He KNOWS he’s not going to win. He runs to bring attention to his party–the Green Party’s platform. He runs because he cares deeply about issues that matter to him and the people who support him.

Some people think he’s crazy, but he’s crazy, like a fox.

There is nothing that gets the attention of a maximum number of people quickly like running for the presidency of the U.S. You’d get national/worldwide attention almost overnight. Even if you simply went public and told various audiences that you were going to declare for the presidency or went through the first stages of running for the presidency (like getting signatures,) you’d get tons of attention, and you’d use that attention to focus on these issues for black women.

THIS would work–to get the attention of a LOT of black women. FAST. They’re the target–no one else.

this is great! You are so savvy and smart. I wondered what was a good way to grab the attention of the BW who are tired of this nonsense.,

The overall goal of BW going publci would not be to change the zombies but to let the world know that the American BW who don’t act like the constant negative stereotypical portrayals are tired of this image being one sided.

if the decent forward moving BW remian quiet I thik that says in so many words that we really don’t care. its like we keep allowing the other side of BW to be attacked without trying to do anything about it.

i don’t know how quickly we can marry up to those Alpha Non Black males if we are constantly perceived as a whole as being emasculating, ball busting women.

*Paging Khadija* Get crackin’! I’ll be your first campaign contributor. Hell, I’d support most of the women who comment regularly on this forum. However, I won’t be able to run myself as I’m a very private person

Oh, no—NOBODY is going to heap any more work on me! Some of y’all in the audience need to figure it all out, and run for office, and do a podcast, and do all those other extra work assignments that folks try to push off on me (and other bloggers).

I feel that our time & energy would be better invested in separating ourselves—in EVERY way possible—from these deranged masses of BW who can’t be offended by anything, no matter how insulting or degrading it is toward them.

The way things are now with bw Khadija, means that bw who want to distinguish must do so in a superlative fashion. it must be as clear as night and day!

Indeed! And a large part of distinguishing ourselves from the zombies is to totally pull AWAY from them. This means to STOP worrying about trying to save them from themselves.

Let me make it plain: This means NO “reaching back” to BF zombies! I know it pains many of us to hear this, but reaching back to hug up on BF zombies means that you’ll be lumped in WITH the BF zombies. Birds of a feather flock together.

I agree. I think wasting time trying to change the zombie BW would be futile and a waste. I also believe its imperative in any public initiative to make it known that we separate ourselves from the zombies.

But I do think its imperative that there be a public initiative by BW who do not fit these constant images and stereotypes to say to the world WE EXIST and we are here to say we have had enough of the one sided images that are presented to the world.

The fact is there are plenty of BW who do fit the stereotypes we see. But there are many more who don’t. If we remain quiet I believe we are actually saying to society and people that decent BW do not care to publicly work to change the perceptions of themselves. We have zero balance in the media. Michelle O isn’t enough 9as we can see).

I definitely think there needs to be a strategic effort on the parts of forward moving BW who do not fit these horrible constant stereotypes we see of BW in the media to take a PUBLIC stand and say enough we exist and we are going to no longer sit quiet and idle while the world takes shots at the entire collective of Black womanhood.

I believe that the first step is being utilized right now-using the blogosphere to create images of ourselves that we want to see. The BWE bloggers are changing minds and lives as a result of their persistent efforts to send positive, affirmative messages. Additional steps would be to further the movement by using the social media outlets-Facebook, etc.-to spread the message even more. Writing books, poetry, etc., creating artwork, are also valid means to accomplish the same task. I am all about broadening options and expanding horizons, so anything that showcases the varied knowledge, skills, abilities, and talents of sojourners should be encouraged.

You said, “But I do think its imperative that there be a public initiative by BW who do not fit these constant images and stereotypes to say to the world WE EXIST and we are here to say we have had enough of the one sided images that are presented to the world.”

Here’s what makes me skittish about that sort of direct, explicit messaging:

First, it reminds me of Rev. Jesse “Baby Daddy” Jackson’s trademark audience chant of “I AM somebody!” Even as a preteen, I always had a queasy reaction to that. If you have to run around publicly and explicity announcing that you are somebody, you’re probably actually a “nobody.”

I believe having BW standing up at microphones to explicitly state things like “There are decent BW—we exist” would probably be counterproductive. It’s similar to the REAL message that BM are conveying when they talk about so-called “Good Black Men.™” When a BM feels the need to self-describe as a “Good Black Man™” what he’s really saying is that the majority of other BM are NOT good. There’s no parallel terminology for men from any other group. Because there’s no perceived need to specify “Good White Man,””Good Latino Man,” “Good Asian Man,” etc.

To have to explicitly announce that you’re a good and/or decent “X” is to unwittingly announce the opposite message—that most Xs are not good or decent. To have to announce that there really are good and decent Xs is to unwittingly announce that most Xs are not good or decent.

There are certain types of messages that backfire and end up communicating the opposite thing/message when you say them explicitly.

Second, offhand I can’t think of an example where those sorts of initiatives have actually succeeded in changing opinions and impressions. For one failed example, using commercials and public announcements to try to convince the straight public that they’re as normal as anybody else has NOT worked for gays and lesbians. From what I could tell from reading some gay and lesbian blogs, is that the mainstream White gay and lesbian organizations spent the bulk of their energies pursuing those kinds of explicit, direct public relations messages in the years leading up to Proposition 8 in California. Their strategy of focusing on that sort of stuff failed. It seems to me that those direct, explicit public relations type messages failed to change anybody’s opinion about gays and lesbians.

It seems to me that the kind of defamation that we’re talking about is reduced and more or less stopped by the interplay of 2 different processes:

(1) People stop publicly defaming certain categories of people because the penalties that will be imposed for doing so become too high. To put it bluntly, this is the Inflict Permanent Livelihood-Damaging Punishment Technique used by Jewish organizations. Unlike AAs who have short memories, Jewish organizations don’t play and they don’t forget what they perceive as trespasses against Jewish people or interests.

The unflattering truth is that AAs don’t have that level of commitment to punishing anybody for anything. At most, we play at boycotts and other economic sanctions for a minute, and then we go back to sleep until the next outrage. I believe that, in many situations, playing at imposing sanctions is worse than doing nothing. Because when AAs sell wolf tickets and then have an initiative that fizzles out after a couple of weeks, we conclusively PROVE that we’re all bark and no serious bite. And then people know for sure that they can safely disregard us.

(2) People stop publicly or privately defaming certain categories of people because they’ve actually changed their views about that category of people. This sort of process happens gradually. By one person at a time changing their views as they meet, socialize with, and perhaps grow close to a person from previously disdained Category X. When a person is close to an individual from Category X, then that person will often chastise others in their circle who defame Category X. This is what a quality WM husband will do on behalf of his nonwhite wife.

This process only happens to the extent that normal, likable people from Category X start mingling, fraternizing, and forming CLOSE bonds (such as marriage ties) with others.

Again, this is a VERY slow process. Even one person having their views of Category X change is a slow process with fits and starts. What a lot of folks do in the beginning of rethinking their attitudes is that they carve out unique spots for the people they like and respect who are part of Category X. It takes time for many people’s improving impressions of Category X to extend out to apply to Category X in general (as opposed to having positive views of specific individuals from Category X).

I know we want to feel like we’re “doing something.” However, not all problems can be remedied by our familiar, traditional methods of public protests, public announcements of “we’re decent human beings too” or “I AM somebody” sort of thing, and so on.

Let me stress that I’m NOT trying to discourage or stop anybody else from adopting whatever strategy they feel is best. I’m just explaining why I, Khadija, am not inclined to participate in certain types of initiatives at this point.

Khadija you said: “The unflattering truth is that AAs don’t have that level of commitment to punishing anybody for anything. At most, we play at boycotts and other economic sanctions for a minute, and then we go back to sleep until the next outrage. I believe that, in many situations, playing at imposing sanctions is worse than doing nothing. Because when AAs sell wolf tickets and then have an initiative that fizzles out after a couple of weeks, we conclusively PROVE that we’re all bark and no serious bite. And then people know for sure that they can safely disregard us.”

Your assessment was powerful!!
I totally agree.

Your subsequent assessment that it will take INDIVIDUAL improvement and INDIVIDUAL committment to improving that will make the difference.

“This sort of process happens gradually. By one person at a time changing their views as they meet, socialize with, and perhaps grow close to a person from previously disdained Category X. When a person is close to an individual from Category X, then that person will often chastise others in their circle who defame Category X. This is what a quality WM husband will do on behalf of his nonwhite wife.

This process only happens to the extent that normal, likable people from Category X start mingling, fraternizing, and forming CLOSE bonds (such as marriage ties) with others.”

“To have to explicitly announce that you’re a good and/or decent “X” is to unwittingly announce the opposite message—that most Xs are not good or decent.”

“There are certain types of messages that backfire and end up communicating the opposite thing/message when you say them explicitly.”

AGREED. Wholeheartedly.

As one reader recently said (my apologies but I’ve since forgotten who), and I paraphrase, “if you have to tell/convince people that you are okay, then the message you’re actually communicating is that you are an insecure pretender.”

This in itself was powerful to me, as I continue to fall out of lock step with the dying black consciousness. And as much as I’d like to excitedly overshare the details of my continued regeneration with each of you, I hope the fact that my own circle of influence witnessing this curious transformation and is inspiring mini-rebirths and shock waves of transformation beyond me, is testimony enough.

IMO, the best advertisement for the strategic-thinking BW is HER.. her brand. The way she carries herself and the composed way she handles business. I find that I don’t have to publicly proclaim anything other than the fact that I am living well. Not as a BW, but as a woman who happens to be black.

But I would like to personally thank each of you, and Khadija, Evia, Acts of Faith, and the many, many others that continue to be the forerunners of TRUE change we can all believe in.

haven’t commented in a long time, but the one thing I learned from the bwe blogs is to question anything directed at bw.
I can’t remember the first time I heard this “bottom of the totem pole or barrel” but thinking about it more… bw are being used by a lot of people as a support system w/o reciprocation, so in a sense bw are at the bottom holding up others. But they could just simply walk away and let the totems tumble down. This talk seems to only serve to paralyze bw and keep them stuck supporting others. If only bw would shut out the outside noise and look within and see their power and the things they CAN control. I can be poised, I can be friendly, I can dress stylishly, eat healthier, vet the company I keep, further my knowledge, etc. There is just so much we can do if we really think about it.
ps idk that boycotts can stop the media attacks on bw, but it’s more of not funding their agenda, all the money I’m saving can go to travel expenses, now

“If only bw would shut out the outside noise and look within and see their power and the things they CAN control.” Very true.. Only once I removed the negative media from my home (sold TV, personal boycott of urban radio, cancelled subscriptions to mEssence and other print media), was I able to do just what you’ve recommended.

Extreme, but honestly the only way to expand one’s mind beyond the limited scope (and miserly, mentally-stunted existence) of the BC. I more I sought creative outlets to amuse and develop myself, the more I witnessed the literal slaughter (mis-education, crime rate, etc) and looting (BW’s bodies and features, etc) taking place before my very eyes. My only goal at this point is to be a light signaling the way out for others along the path.

I think much of this bottom of the barrel foolishness has been fueled by these “special reports” that have been televised about the woes of Black women. One of my co-workers who teaches history even showed this in her class. Way to give hope to all those young Black girls….SMH
I will be making a list of Pepsi products and make sure to leave them on the shelves. Lucky for me, I haven’t been buying much from them anyway as I’m eating healthy these days and what they sell is garbage. Hey, at least their advertisement is in line with the quality of the products they sell. The ads are garbage you shouldn’t let in your mind and they’re products are garbage you shouldn’t put in your body. I’m choosing to release their products and their advertisements from my life. Neither will benefit me at all.

With regards to the Sojourner’s brand, we all contribute to it every day. I have changed the way I dress, become very particular about what I say, and have been eating healthier and exercising. The best thing any of us can do to help uplift the image of Black women and girls is to become our best selves and live amazing lives. I teach Black teens everyday and I try to share whatever wisdom I can with them on a daily basis. Some of them are receptive, some are not, but as my momma always says, “I can show you better than I can tell you!” I also have friends who I share with. Some of it sticks and some of it doesn’t. At the end of the day, I am clear about my goals and my values. The proof my friends is in the pudding. My girlfriends and my students can listen or not, but I can feel good about the fact that I gave them the 411 as I boarded my boat. They can choose to drown, grab a lifesaver, or paddle away in a dinghy, but my reservations are made and I’m putting in payments on a daily basis!

Yes Mariposa Linda it sounds like in the US on TV you have too much of Soledad O’Brien or somebody else talking about the ‘woes of educated, middle class, successful black women’ who can’t find a partner who is black and as successful as they are, or more, blah, blah, blah. And they call that a special report, it’s only special in the little yellow school bus way.

It does nothing positive for a BW’s brand, or confidence, and in those ‘special reports’ they’re probably mostly speaking to the educated, high salary earning Quandishas anyway. Is there anyway you can interest the teens you teach in an etiquette/finishing school program?

Three things I wanted to discuss on tonight. In no particular order though…

1st,
In my late teens and twenties I knew it was my physical difference as an African American woman that made my beauty so special and unique so I played it up, but still maintained my allure, elegance and intelligence. In other words I didn’t cast my pearls among swine.

In elementary school I was teased for my full lips and chocolate skin, but as I became a bit older I discovered that it was those things that made non-black men notice and adore me. It all clicked in place for me after that. Sure I heard the rumors that non-black men only wanted black women to whet their fetishes. And some of that might have been true. But I was able to see through the losers who were experimenting. And who were deeply and emotionally damaged. To the men who were sincerely interested in the African American woman’s beauty, particularly my beauty.

2nd
Perhaps it is just me but I have always been the type of person who would ask myself, “Does this help me or hurt me. How does this benefit him/her”? Looking back I think because this has always been my approach to people and new situations I stayed out of trouble. However, I also don’t have a huge network of “real friends”. Sure I know a lot of people. But in my lifetime I haven’t had many really close friends.

3rd
I never had the opportunity to give my feedback on an earlier discussion you had regarding Asian women being shrewd enough to work their stereotypes to their own advantages.

One day I watched an Asian woman (she, her husband, and a few other friends from my husbands office were helping us move). I had just had a baby and was talking to the men thanking them for their help. When all of a sudden she did something that was curiously similar to a Geisha in movement and charm. And she had all of the men, including mine staring at her in a seductive gaze. With me looking around and thinking, “What just happened here and why”?

She had her hair pulled back in a makeshift bun with a pencil or pen, I forget which. But she swirls her hair, takes out the pencil/pen, says something and hands it to me, ( I’d loaned her the pencil/pen earlier that day) with a little, almost faint laugh. I later wondered why she would interrupt me to do this, but I figured it out shortly later.

She was trying to capture the position in this new friendship as the alpha-female. Albiet doing it by visually seducing the men. So I asked myself why does she need to hold that position? There are many reasons for that one.

This same woman, who is extremely educated and successful told me that marrying her white husband was status for her. Her parents are both very wealthy and successful. But still for their daughter to marry a white American and have his children would be seen as great status for the family back in Asia.

Honestly I was shocked when she told me this. And she said it so matter of fact. No big deal. I know an African American woman, would never admit such a thing, even if it were true. LOL.

Oh yeah, the Asian woman’s “hair commercial, slow-motion with a theme song playing in the background”-type untwist of the makeshift bun was Platinum Level Hair Flip.

Even though that was some foul mess, I have to admire how she worked that. Unlike the “don’t you dare call me Black” self-proclaimed biracials, Latina women, and most WW, this Asian broad took that hair flip orders of magnitude above and beyond what most of these other types of women think to do while hair-flipping. She went beyond hair-flipping that’s only noted by other women to doing a Platinum Level Hair Flip that was graceful and atttractive anough to capture a room full of men’s attention. Geisha, indeed.

A lot of feminist WW (and some others) hated Melina’s blog with a passion (The Art of Being Feminine), but there’s a science to that sort of Platinum Level deployment of one’s feminine charms. And it pays off in real life.

You said, “This same woman, who is extremely educated and successful told me that marrying her white husband was status for her. Her parents are both very wealthy and successful. But still for their daughter to marry a white American and have his children would be seen as great status for the family back in Asia.

Honestly I was shocked when she told me this. And she said it so matter of fact. No big deal. I know an African American woman, would never admit such a thing, even if it were true. LOL.”

Here’s what I think is the most important take-away lesson from this part of your comment—Asian women DON’T care—at all—about being politically correct. Asian women are focused on doing, getting, and having whatever works for THEM. Meanwhile, most AA women are busy slitting their own wrists and cutting their own throats in efforts—by themselves because BM aren’t participating in these particular jihads—to be politically correct, and/or fight the power, and/or fight White hegemony.

I ask the rhetorical questions (because we all know the answers): Which group of women is living better in the US? Which type of decision-making leads to a better quality of life—doing what works best for self OR being a jihadi in so-called community battles?

Let me say one final thing about the Asian woman’s comment about White husbands as status symbols to her wealthy and successful parents, etc. CeeGeeR, I’m not saying that you’re doing this, but I know that a lot of AA women would insist upon interpreting this as a negative, somehow self-hating thing. Which I find fascinating. I find it fascinating that AA women are so resistant to interpreting this as Asian women and Asian parents taking delight in their daughters conquering the hearts, minds, AND money of the same group of WM who conquered their countries in the past.

This isn’t like the situation where the BM former (?) slave is working his fingers to the bone to heap more riches on the former slavemaster’s/conqueror’s daughters.

This is the reverse of that situation—where the formerly conquered people’s daughters have the conquering men working their fingers to the bone to heap riches on THEM! It reminds one of the 1960s song, “The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game.”

Follow the money and other material resource trail to get a clear-eyed view of what’s going on with overall patterns.

There’s another cultural baggage-emotional consolation prize habit among AAs that we would do well to drop: Our standard operating procedure refusal to give other people their “props.” We’re always looking for a way to explain away any and all accomplishments by other. Even if we have to twist stuff around to impose the “they aren’t so skilled, hardworking, whatever/they aren’t doing so well” interpretation on events. Let’s just tell the plain truth. Asian women have done a much better job of working around their external problems and disadvantages than AA women. They’ve done such a good job at this that it only took them 4-5 decades to—in MASS numbers—latch onto this planet’s dominant men as husbands, protectors, and providers. In the process of doing this they’ve:

(1) Created other options for themselves beyond having to be involved with what I’ve heard some of them describe as Asian men’s greater degree of sexism.

(2) Moved up materially.

(3) Move up and turned around their previously degraded and negative public image among non-Asians.

Those MASS-impact accomplishments are nothing to turn up our noses at. Or pretend that they didn’t happen. And those mass-impact accomplishments were NOT accomplished with protest marches, anti-defamation leagues, press conferences, public service announcement-type commercials saying “Don’t look down on Asian women,” or other direct methods.

These enduring mass effects were gradually created by the INDIRECT method of individual Asian women securing quality husbands from the planet’s dominant group of men (WM).

It’s all something to consider.

Once again let me re-emphasize the point that I’m NOT trying to discourage or stop anybody from doing whatever type of mobilization they feel is best.

In fact, if I thought there was a critical mass of AAs who were serious enough and committed enough to create AND sustain an Anti-Defamation League type organization, then I’d be willing to participate in such. But as far as I can tell, there’s not. The other angle about imitating the Jewish ADL technique is that the Jewish community is committed to punishing the people who defame them FOREVER. As in, whoever crosses them is at risk of NEVER working again in their chosen field. They’ll even apply this punishment to other Jewish people who step out of line. AAs don’t have the “fire in the belly” to punish anybody that harshly or permanently. We looove to flap our lips talking about mostly fake redemption.

Yet another angle is that, unlike the Jewish ADL situation, the vast majority of the anti-BW defamers we’d need to punish (if we’re serious about stopping or at least cutting back the defamation) are other Black people at this point. AAs don’t have the stomach to chastise, much less economically punish, other Blacks. We don’t even want to see the Black people who beat, rob, ravish and kill other Black folks punished.

Finally, what type of persons would be the public spokespersons for such a proposed BW’s ADL? Wouldn’t having BW calling press conferences to publicly complain about the defamation reinforce the negative image (and unfortunate reality) that AA women in general have NO male protectors? And apparently couldn’t scrape up any male protectors to publicly complain on our behalf? And reinforce the image of Sista Soldiering shemales?

Furthermore, would it also serve to (unfairly—since many AA women are stuck on what we think is “fair”) to reinforce the image of AA women as shrews?

These are some of the questions that come to mind when I hear talk of forming a BW’s ADL. Any responses to these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Under the current conditions, I see neither a strategic nor tactical advantage to making any efforts on a “organized” activities for all the reasons already mentioned.

I prefer to be seen and viewed as a lady first. With that perspective, I am not going to march or do battles with or for anyone. If a Lady were to do battle it would be by proxy via having men fight for her.

The best offense for AA BW is living well and choosing our mates well.

Hmm…your anecdote has got me thinking. My strategy when dealing with older and/or less attractive married women is to look always look presentable but I never put in as much effort to look attractive or be seductive as so that they see me as an ally and not a threat. If that woman had come into my home right after I gave birth and performed a platinum hair flip she wouldn’t be invited back. That’s aggressive feminine behavior. She certainly wouldn’t turn my husband’s head with it either. Although he has the same relationship with AW that I have with BM, and that’s indifference with a side of suspicion. I do admire her skills though, but I don’t advise married Sojourners to go around doing catty things like that to other women, it won’t win many friends and you might influence people to dislike you. Now, if I’m around other women who are my equal or more attractive then by all means, I gild the lilly and look my best. However, unprovoked feminine aggression is not appropriate in these settings either.

But still for their daughter to marry a white American and have his children would be seen as great status for the family back in Asia.

Honestly I was shocked when she told me this. And she said it so matter of fact. No big deal. I know an African American woman, would never admit such a thing, even if it were true. LOL.

My reply:

Funny you should say this; I’m from an Afro-Caribbean background, and I have heard Afro-Caribbean women talking quietly among themselves about this very thing. Whether they say it in the open is another thing, but I have heard the “white husband as status symbol” type thing.

I have heard one Afro-Caribbean man talk about the “white man wants a slave” thing, but there is a difference between a man supposing what it is like for a black woman with a white man and seeing/hearing what it is like from women who are living the reality. Whether this comes from living in the Caribbean and seeing ex-pat local women come back with white husbands from the UK, Canada and the US, or from their living overseas and seeing a different type of man than they saw in the Caribbean, being with a white man can be a means of, as Khadija explained it, gaining status as well as escaping black men’s sexism/egoism.

In other words, being with a white man is just “easier,” less hassle-free, and they can see it in the lives of the women they know who are happily married to white men.

I have also heard Afro-Caribbean women talk about certain types of black girls who could be expected to marry white, ie., cultured, pretty and feminine, and that was not seen as a problem. Instead, it was something to be admired.

As usual, when we discuss these issues, a certain amount of assumptions are made about how others think or feel.

I fully agree that BW of the Sojourner thought system need to separate from the masses of suicidal AA women, and I’ve been in that camp for years now. We should have done it long ago. In actuality, I separated years ago or was never joined, BUT the fact is that when the average person in the public sees me, s/he doesn’t know that I’m not a Shanniqua or Quandisha.

On the dating front, if I were a single bw and a typical QLL wm/nonbm was interested, he could easily wonder whether I was that Quandisha type because that type of bw is so “out there” in huge numbers. Since the penalty for getting on the wrong side of a Quandisha is very high; there’s a high probability that he’s not going to take the chance of approaching her. Many of the Quandishas are well-educated, with high incomes these days because she is a typical member of the “acting black crew” who make up the bulk of AAs. We all know this. Y’all can call that white guy a wimp for not approaching a bw who he’s interested in, but we’ve all seen Quandishas in action.

So we have the Quandishas and the Sojourners and we all LOOK just alike to typical others. In order for the Sojourners to separate from the Quandishas, the Sojourners have got to do something publicly to separate ourselves, and this publicity has got to capture a lot of attention

So Neecy, my purpose for that suggestion was not to try to save anyone, though I do feel bad about young black girls going down, but that’s just nature. Nature is savage, and there’s nothing more I can do to change the fate of those black girls than I’m already doing. So, my purpose for suggesting that you run for the presidency was for you to stage a publicity stunt to bring attention to the Sojourners and OUR thought system and way of life. That STUNT, in itself, would counter some of the negativity surrounding the image of bw. I believe that a stunt like that would reverberate far and wide. I assumed (wrongly, maybe)that was your main thrust.

I’ve campaigned on my site for bw to come to their senses for almost 5 years now. If other bw refuse to come to their senses despite the glaring need to do so, that’s up to them. Here’s the thing. I think that there are a lot of Sojourners out there ALREADY and it would be immensely valuable to us all to know about each other.

Once people find out about the Sojourners in mass and our common sense, progressive, upwardly mobile way of life, that in itself would negate some of the negativity surrounding the image of bw. It would provide a bit of balance, that could grow over time.

I want to make it clear that I’m definitely not in the active/hyperactive recruitment-conversion camp. It’s too time consuming and just not a good investment of resources at this point. If this had been done 15-20 years ago, yes, but not now.

I’ve come to the conclusion that one reason why so many bw are not GETTING IT at all or are understanding this basic, common sense message so slowly is because there are no hooks inside their head to hang much of this philosophy on. In some cases, we’re forced to nail in the hook or try to nail it in, and then we try to hang the knowledge. Most of the time, we miss the nail and the hook. LOL!

That is a painstakingly slow process and there’s no time for that anymore. I’m not dissing young bw. I’m saying that there may be hooks for other types of content in the heads of a lot of young bw, but not this kind of basic common sense content. This is why we can talk or write forever, and the vast majority of them who read every word and still don’t GET IT.

Anyway, this is why I’ve been saying for years that I’m only interested in like minds or similar minds.

You said, “In order for the Sojourners to separate from the Quandishas, the Sojourners have got to do something publicly to separate ourselves, and this publicity has got to capture a lot of attention.”

Yes, I agree—provided that whatever publicity-generating action the Sojourners do is NOT a replay of Quandisha-types tactics (protesting, marching, complaint-festival press conferences with NO male protectors advocating for us, “I AM somebody”-type pep rallies, etc.).

AND as long as it doesn’t have a HIGH probability of backfiring and accidentally reinforcing a Quandisha-type image.

These are some of my concerns about the idea of overt, direct BW’s-ADL public-service “Don’t look down on BW. There are decent BW”-type messaging. Like I said earlier, some messages are best conveyed indirectly. What I’ve heard so far in connection to these ideas sounds like using Quandisha-type protest tactics.

I agree that there definitely needs to be a thought out movement but nothing similar to a sister soldier fighting with the public one. I had to laugh at you saying “oh no no yall not going to put anymore work on me” LOL I think you’ve done plenty and have done your part.

I still think there are ways for BW to get themselves on news shows, talk shoes etc., to explain and disicuss these matters.

Perfect example is Sophia Nelson a BW author did an interview on MSNBC regarding the Pepsi commercial and why that image hurts certain BW who do not fit that profile. Take a look

I’m thinking something more along that line. Just BW getting out there and expressing that these images are not Ok and WHY. We can even gain empathy and sympathy from others if we go about it the right way. if we present ourselves in a feminine (non combative ) way that says we just want to be seen as women and such. I thought her interview was great b/c she remained feminine but explained how these images are not ok b/c of how it affects all BW who are just trying to live life the best they can without all of these images and stereotypes being heaped upon the whole of us.

I was thinking more along the lines of what Sophia did. By accessing news panels/shows etc., to discuss what can be done about balancing out the images. I am not even trying to save the Shaniquas b/c let’s face it there are BW like that. I just want the Sojourners to be OPENLY and PUBLICLY recognized as another alternative to Black female womanhood that the world really doesn’t see or believe exists.

Like I said I am not so sure if many BW can get to many of the NOn Black Alpha males with our collective in its current state. We can and are doing it, but I believe the process can be much much quicker if we started working now to change things pro actively – both working on our individual selves and also doing things publicly on our behalf. We need to make it easier for those Non Black alpha men as well who would enter relations with BW by showing the world that we are pro active in saying this is the other half of the equation and we are proud to show and tell the world that we exist and want to do something for ourselves.

I think people would appreciate and finally breathe a sigh of fresh air if more sojourner type BW started openly showing and saying this.

i don’t believe all NOn Blacks enjoy having to see and deal with the ABW stereotype. notice how they react to you or other sojourner BW who do not fit these stereotypes – very pleasantly.

I believe all sojourner BW have to do is show some initiative and I believe in my heart we would get help and support from other decent Non Blacks.

face it, Non blacks are tired of the sister soldiering BW who are always on the front lines screaming racism and fighting white hegemony. Can you imagine more non threatening BW like us showing the world PUBLICLY we are here, ready to assimilate and be apart of American society. We don’t want to socially isolate ourselves like BonQuiQUi and nem’.

I think we’d get a lot more support than we believe from certain and powerful Non Blacks.

yes there will be other Non Blacks who would fight it b/c they enjoy seeing BW stay out of the competition, but I believe decent Non Blacks would embrace Sojourner type BW and our movement. It will benefit them in some ways.

This weekend I am really going to sit and focus and write down some things. I know I will come up with something. i have been wanting to do this for over 10 years. i finally need to take some action and stop talking!

On the dating front, if I were a single bw and a typical QLL wm/nonbm was interested, he could easily wonder whether I was that Quandisha type because that type of bw is so “out there” in huge numbers. Since the penalty for getting on the wrong side of a Quandisha is very high; there’s a high probability that he’s not going to take the chance of approaching her. Many of the Quandishas are well-educated, with high incomes these days because she is a typical member of the “acting black crew” who make up the bulk of AAs. We all know this. Y’all can call that white guy a wimp for not approaching a bw who he’s interested in, but we’ve all seen Quandishas in action.

Evia thank you for putting into words so eloquently what I couldn’t exactly state about the Quandishas regardless of background, education level, salary etc., and the Sojourners. And what you say there is true all of it.

Did you see the interview with Sophia Nelson on MSNBC the other day regarding the Pepsi commercial and how it paints BW? i think she did a great interview (even the WW intervier understood where she was coming from). I was thinking something more along those lines. Doesnt have to be sister soldiering “fighting” with the public and media. but using those same platforms in a feminine way to represent the fact that we just want to say to the world that these images do hurt the whole of BW even if we are completely opposite of the stereotypes. it just makes it harder for us who “want to assimilate and be apart of American society” (they’d love that. how many BW show that they want to be apart of society and stop isolating themsleves and always fighting for Black causes?).

The more we start opnely saying we want to be apart of American society and such i think it will benefit us. let’s face it BW are the most socially isolated group.

its a breath of fresh air when nOn blacks interact with a pleasant non combative non sister soldier BW. i can see how they react. not all of them enjoy dealing with the negative stereotypes of BW.

Plus i feel it makes it that much easier for those Alpha White males to pursue us b/c the veil is down and the word would be out.

So I still want to do something publically and even HECK if BW who like myself want to go public if we play our cards right we can even get support and sympathy (not that i am saying I want people to feel sorry for BW), but if we present ourselves right, other Non Blacks would definitley support our movement I believe (i could be wrong).

Just think about how pleasantly a Non Black person treats you when they believe you are not the ‘atypical” angry Black Quanisha type.

I could be wrong about all of this. i am just brainstorming. I like hearing feedback from both sides – the concerns and the ones who agree we should do something.

“Here’s what I think is the most important take-away lesson from this part of your comment—Asian women DON’T care—at all—about being politically correct. Asian women are focused on doing, getting, and having whatever works for THEM.”

I say:

Having lived in CA most of my life, and seen a lot of Asian women (both immigrant and American-born) in action, and known some Asian women as friends, I would have to agree with this statement.

I’ve seen young Asian women walk right past groups of young Asian men at a nightspot to get to a group of white men. I’ve seen them offer to tutor white male grad students in their courses for free, “just to be nice”, when the real intent was to block off enough quality time alone with the target man in question so that he would be seduced by her charms. I’ve seen them pick out a man, a church, a neighborhood, and their children’s names by the thrid date with a guy, AND, this is the important part, execute on all of those parts of that plan. I could go on. They don’t play around in terms of goal attainment.

And yes, they’re very matter-of-fact and pragmatic about all of this. And the ones that are successful in marrying white men while marrying up are held up as examples for other young Asian women; they have “made something of themselves” and assured their future.

In terms of their mothers and fathers approving of the racial mixing of their grandchildren, I would say that’s not always a slam dunk. Most are fine with it, because Asians have their own particular strain of colorism in their culture; lighter is better. But, that isn’t universal across the board.

But, it is universal that if race-mixing is going to happen, then the “vanilla swirl” is definitely the preferred mix. The Eurasian children are lauded for their looks, their skin color, their height, etc.

It’s a much different dynamic that what you see in the black American female construct.

These are some of my concerns about the idea of overt, direct BW’s-ADL public-service “Don’t look down on BW. There are decent BW”-type messaging. Like I said earlier, some messages are best conveyed indirectly. What I’ve heard so far in connection to these ideas sounds like using Quandisha-type protest tactics.

LOL! When I hear that “I am somebody” type statement coming from a black person, it is so revolting. I put distance between myself and those types of blacks ASAP whenever I hear that cr#p.

I’m not even suggesting a reactive posture AT ALL; I’m talking PROACTIVE. I could not sign on to anything reactive. I don’t believe in spending more than a minute reacting to other peoples’ issues. I try to put distance between myself and people like that. I’m mostly a proactive person. There wouldn’t even need to be ANY mention of this other sort of negativity. The Sojourners are not about negativity, so when we step out there, we represent OURSELVES, OUR thought system, OUR behavior, OUR way of life.

We are NOT out there to speak for the Quandishas, even though we catch a lot of flack because of her. I agree that speaking for her is only going to add more fuel to the fire. Let Quandisha get out there and fight the bad stuff about her image since she won’t listen to common sense and shut up and behave in a sane way. I’m saying the speeches would have to be SCRIPTED. Anything else would be way too risky initially, and the person (unless it were you) would need to be coached.

98% of the negativity aimed at AA women doesn’t impact me directly. I’m in a protected category. I am married to a middle-upper middle class, well educated, professional wm and we live in an idyllic environment around others of his type ONLY. My marriage to him provides a lot of protection and support, plus other goodies. And for those who don’t know, prior to him, I was married to a well-educated, high-earning, professional Nigerian man who made it possible for us to live in a different type of upscale, idyllic environment. However, I was impacted a LOT more as a bw when I was his wife since he was a bm.

And Khadija, it’s so ridiculous that we have to keep explaining to bw why it’s SO MUCH more advantageous for them to marry a QLL wm. Of course, Asian women can see those advantages!!! Every other sensible type of woman can TOO. Why in the world can’t black women?????????? It’s a deliberate type of self-blinding that comes from their indoctrination. Some of these same bw who complain about white hegemony then turn around and seem dense about the bounty of advantages of marrying a man from that group. Since wm are hegemonic and have the power and privileges, why wouldn’t any black woman deprive herself and her children from sharing those privileges and power when a QLL-wm invites her to be his spouse and the mother of his children?

For ex., when I did my podcast on “His White Privileges Benefit Me,” some black folks wanted to HURT me!!!LOL! What is it with black folks? Bw KNOW about white privileges, yet they seem to be trying to pretend not to know and then some bw want to get mad at bw like me and Asian women AND other women for scooping up or accepting some of those privileges for ourselves and our children!

You said, “LOL! When I hear that “I am somebody” type statement coming from a black person, it is so revolting. I put distance between myself and those types of blacks ASAP whenever I hear that cr#p.”

{chuckling}

You said, “I’m saying the speeches would have to be SCRIPTED. Anything else would be way too risky initially, and the person (unless it were you) would need to be coached.”

Well, it WON’T be me…I’ve already done my thing for the BWE cause. It’s time for various BWE audience members who want something done to do something. Once some of Y’ALL in the audience get something together, I’ll decide whether or not I want to participate in any manner. I’m NOT taking on any heavy-duty responsibility for any additional assignments.

You said, “And Khadija, it’s so ridiculous that we have to keep explaining to bw why it’s SO MUCH more advantageous for them to marry a QLL wm. Of course, Asian women can see those advantages!!! Every other sensible type of woman can TOO. Why in the world can’t black women?????????? It’s a deliberate type of self-blinding that comes from their indoctrination. Some of these same bw who complain about white hegemony then turn around and seem dense about the bounty of advantages of marrying a man from that group.”

You said, “For ex., when I did my podcast on “His White Privileges Benefit Me,” some black folks wanted to HURT me!!!LOL! What is it with black folks? Bw KNOW about white privileges, yet they seem to be trying to pretend not to know and then some bw want to get mad at bw like me and Asian women AND other women for scooping up or accepting some of those privileges for ourselves and our children!”

I think we need to take a moment to take stock of how far we’ve come. Yes, it’s true that the stereotype of the angry, masculine and emasculating Black woman exists and it is reinforced by Black women and others. But popular media is increasingly promoting the image of feminine, accomplished and attractive black women who are open to quality men of the world.

The television show “Eureka” stars a beautiful and unambiguously Black woman who is the most powerful person in the town, is considered the town beauty, and was the love interest of the two most eligible bachelors in the town– both of whom were (hot) white men. Zoe Saldana, Gabrielle Union, Sanaa Lathan, Halle Berry (for better or worse with her current foolishness), Joy Bryant and a number of other beautiful, famous, unambiguously Black women have all starred in major movies and television shows as the feminine and desired love interest of “rainbow” men. BTW, when I say unambiguously Black, I’m not just talking about the way these women look, I’m also noting that it is established in the shows that these are Black women.

I think America already knows that we aren’t all Precious and men from the rainbow have ALWAYS desired us as mates, not just sex objects. What the emergence of these shows, often written and directed by white men, demonstrates to me is that they are eager for us to wake up and recognize how desired we are. These are (often white) men playing out their fantasies, sending a message.

Also, someone in this conversation mentioned that when a man looks at you he doesn’t know whether you’re a “Quandisha” (I call them hoodrats) or not. I respectfully disagree. NEVER underestimate the power of dress and body language. Men can pick out women like that almost instantly. It’s the way you walk, the way you stand, the clothes you wear and the way you speak.

Like Khadija, I sometimes have a hard time convincing people that I’m African American– to the extent that I have often been accused of being ashamed of being an immigrant. This despite the fact that I speak perfect, unaccented English. I confided this to a few well-traveled friends once and they explained to me that it’s the way I carry myself. I was told that I don’t have American body language. I walk and move differently than most American women. I knew almost instantly what they were talking about. Years of wearing a flowing garment has trained me to walk with perfect posture. If you don’t walk like a lady in those kinds of dresses, you will trip and fall all over the place. There were other things, but the way I walk was the biggest issue.

Also, let’s be honest. Very few American women, of any race, behave like ladies anymore. Raunch culture has infected women across the racial and economic spectrum. I spend a lot of time in a *very* wealthy part of Orange county, CA, not far from my house. I am shocked by the loud, crude behavior of these wealthy, young white women. A lady will always stand out in a crowd like that regardless of her race.

I agree with everything you’ve said Sali – things are changing. I’m seeing so many BW cast in roles now, and in IR relationships on tv, that it’s unreal. Kerry Washington will be the lead on a new show, so will Angela Basset, they just made one of the new Charlie’s Angels black – I think things are looking up as well. And I do think most guys can tell the difference.

It’s just that I sometimes feel like some BW are our worst enemy. Just like we are trying to push forward with our new brand and agenda, they are trying to push back with theirs . . . . . . . . .

It seems to me that the kind of defamation that we’re talking about is reduced and more or less stopped by the interplay of 2 different processes:

(1) People stop publicly defaming certain categories of people because the penalties that will be imposed for doing so become too high. To put it bluntly, this is the Inflict Permanent Livelihood-Damaging Punishment Technique used by Jewish organizations. Unlike AAs who have short memories, Jewish organizations don’t play and they don’t forget what they perceive as trespasses against Jewish people or interests.

The unflattering truth is that AAs don’t have that level of commitment to punishing anybody for anything. At most, we play at boycotts and other economic sanctions for a minute, and then we go back to sleep until the next outrage. I believe that, in many situations, playing at imposing sanctions is worse than doing nothing. Because when AAs sell wolf tickets and then have an initiative that fizzles out after a couple of weeks, we conclusively PROVE that we’re all bark and no serious bite. And then people know for sure that they can safely disregard us.

Exactly Khadija, without actual real punishment going on where people become scared to make a move on you, the justice and fair treatment you seek won’t be forthcoming. Khadija, this part of your comment also reminds me of what is going on in Europe right now, please forgive me for derailing.

In Europe they are now pondering actually giving prisoners who are still in custody the RIGHT TO VOTE….. Huh? Thei has been on morning news shows in Britain today because they’re saying that even Britain may ponder this same kind of insanity. They even interviewed a British WM convicted killer who said to the effect that ‘In the UK they think a criminal should be just punished and put away, but in the rest of Europe it’s not like that. They still see criminals as human beings’. ??? A British WW who had a loved one who was murdered was asked to voice her opinion which was to be against giving prisoners in custody the right to vote, and she said that prisoners have opted to place themselves outside of society by their actions alone, and so should not be given the right to vote.

I know that continental Europe for the most part has a much lower level of crime than the UK, thank goodness, but I hope that AA women thinking of moving to Europe will keep this information in mind.

My mind goes to ‘people’ like the pedophiles who while in prison may vote for and against all sorts of things that will further their agenda and what they want to do so that there will be more Philip Garridos and Josef Fritzls who will be running things on the inside and the outside for when they get released!

Sorry but I just don’t know anymore… But this does tie into what your saying (I swear!) that without a penalty of some sort in place people will always take advantage of you, or always ‘take the mick/p**s’. LOL

I find it fascinating that AA women are so resistant to interpreting this as Asian women and Asian parents taking delight in their daughters conquering the hearts, minds, AND money of the same group of WM who conquered their countries in the past.

My reply:

The Afro-Caribbean women I have heard talk about this have seen intermarrying with white men in this vein, and I agree with it, having said so before.

Look at it this way, and in a fashion that old-school black women can understand.

Asians have a cultural heritage that stresses honor, status and veneration of the ancestors–Confucianism, etc,. ie. the whole notion of “saving face”. Old school black folks think the same way: doing good, in honor of the ancestors, especially those who were enslaved and suffering under inordinate oppression, that it is incumbent upon us to do well in their honor. Think of generations of black women who were rape victims, concubines, taken advantage of and unprotected. Think of the vindication, that in today’s world, black women can access that from in honor of those black women who could not!

I find it ironic that 40+ years ago the Loving v. Virginia case involved a black woman marrying a white man–this led to miscegenation laws being overturned across the country. Black men saw it as their “emancipation proclamation” as they sought non-black women, while black women remained gaslighted….

see this is why i like to jaw jaw over issues because sometimes you come up with newer or better ideas. maybe its not an ADL (direct version), that is needed and what it could be is something that will become clearer with more discussions and weighing up the problem.

I think we have hit on something key re separation. Indeed any attempts to ‘defend’ bw image might prove hard because there are many bw who are indeed like the commercials are potraying, therefore there is some method to the advertiser madness. As one bw said on another board, some bw actually agreed with the pepsi potrayal even where happy that a bw did something ‘violent’. Its almost a repeat of how bw where happy to see Beyonce fight the white woman over Idris Elba in a film they did a while back. bw actually cheered at beyonce beating down the white woman in the cinema! sadly many bw have become one with a horrible caricature of black womanhood over time and see it as authentic bwhood. they want to be big and bad, to roll their neck and blast folk and what have you!

am i saying that only bw behave this way? No not at all, but i guess society is only too ready to seize the most unflattering representation and use that to define bw. they do that anyway. So yeah the whole angle of ‘we are not like that’ might fall flat or be hard to push in the face of bw being just that all over the place!

The more I think about it based on how people react to pleasant acting BW, that I believe there are more people in society who would embrace positive images of BW if we just worked at it. They aren’t going to do it for us, but I believe we’d get support if we simply asked and showed some initiative.

The Quanishas have made public stands for themselves and they got what they wanted. So what about the Sojourners? When have we ever made public stands about who we are? NEVER. The shaniquas win b/c they have OPENLY and PUBLICLY made it clear that they are that way and are proud to be known as the ball busting emasculating angry violent BW.

Now I am not saying Sojourners need to stand on a platform shouting “this is who we are” i am talking more of not only working on our individual selves but also pushing and making POSITIVE open PUBLIC declarations when we see a company, brand Tv show etc., show BW who represent us. That is a GREAT way to make a clear message that we are on board with supporting and openly stating our support for anyone or entity that shows BW in a different more positive light.

When have sojourners done this for ourselves. We are simply tooo quiet.

i actually believe most of society feels MOST or all BW take pride in these images. the more I think about it i believe this is the case. That many feel BW agree with the images. And let’s face it – alot of BW do! They make it clear they love these images. We, sojourners otoh are quiet so they never know there is even a small minority of BW who are over it. So its no issue for them to keep presenting them b/c maybe they deep down feel it doesn’t bother us?

Evia you mentioned something important about every bw being seen as Quandisha because thats basically the most dominant version of bw out there.

yes anyone casually glancing at a bw who enters a bus or train for instance would possibly place her as a quandisha (lol).

I personally have british mannersim which tends to place me in a category of ‘odd’ if you take a second look, and this is including with black people who want to find out what version of bw i am and if i have the same triggers and pulls and inetersts as they know bw should have.

the danger of sojouners not being a ‘known’ catgeory is that people want to push you back to what they know bw ought to be.

let me tell you folks, nothing is feared more than bw not being in her role, not being in her place, like what every other bw should be. i remember an incident not too long ago (2 years i think) where a black female politican was slapped across the face when she was introduced as a ‘conservative’ here in Britain.

see ww can be anything they like but as soon as a bw steps out of where she ought to be ie soidiering for race, supporting black arguments, supporting lefty view points, load carrying and complaining but never quitely effective and empowered etc then even white folk can react with violence.

I had a recent bad experience and from my interpretation i believe it was as a result of the bottom line, ‘Halima does not behave like all other bw do (and should) and therefore we are uncomfortable with that and we want to do something about it’. but its all pretty much unconscious in the folks acting out, they just react against bw not being bw after the manner they should be. they try all manner of thing to push you into your mold. I suspect I will have to ‘whip’ a fe as** quitely and then they will leave me to be me different, but for now the temptation is too much to leave a loose cannon bw running around.

If folks became aware that there is a category of bw (sojourners), and they behave in a perculier way (ie the way halima does for instance), then it therefore becomes a viable alternative (named alternative) for other bw who want to leave the other way of being and also for wider society to begin to formulate better notions of bw womanhood.

Yes racists will always want to see bp as inferior etc etc, but i dont know wether we are just dealing with died in the wool racists and the dynamics they create. other things maybe at play!

Halima you made some really great points. I have had similar experiences with people thinking one thing and when I didn’t live down to their expectations they sought to put me in my place.

@ general
I was thinking that if there was some “organization” it wouldn’t have to be as direct as “I am somebody”. It probably shouldn’t be as that sounds kind of pathetic. I think using stealth, being covert (CW), and using indirect strategy could be effective.

There are tons of groups who say one thing as a platform and then engage in x, y, z covert actions that are beneficial to them only. Just look at Dems and Repubs in this country.

I think that something like this could also be a springboard to maybe create a thriving uplifting culture (Evia) and possibly a network system for sojourners.

I understand the desire to want to Do Something re: Run for President, Take a Stand, etc. but i dare say, we are talking much too much mule work for a Sojourner who has internalized key lessons learned from observing the successes of others. Hear me out. Let’s take the example of Jewish Americans. When they saw African Americans organizing for their rights, savvy and powerful Jews and Jewish collectives made a strategic decision to support black organizers and organizations like the NAACP and later civil rights networks. Why? Well, not because they particularly cared about/for black people, but because they understood that Jews stood to benefit from any gains blacks could make in establishing laws and regulations barring discrimination based on race and ethnic origin–protections they didn’t have and couldn’t get on their own/based on ‘Jewishness’, that would ultimately extend to them. White Women’s suffrage groups did this as well–supporting abolition ’cause they planned to call “Me Next” regarding their own rights if a black male, could get his 5/5 personhood launched. I know we’ve talked about this strategy some groups use of letting the work Others™ are already doing, work for them, through strategic alliances and reliable, valuable tipping point support. Let Katie and Quandisha do the work they are already doing- Fighting The Man™ and Fighting The Power™. Katie™ already has several large feminist organizations that can galvanize an unwelcome hornets nest of pissed white women to swarm corporate headquarters when there’s sexism to be stamped out. Quandisha™ (lol) will ride/die/march anywhere anytime if you frame the argument such that The Black Family™ or The Black Boy™ or The Black Male™ has been insulted (surely cooning/emasculating for Pepsi isn’t a good look for a StrongGood Black Man™ or the proper example for Our Black Boys™, etc.etc..). You get the picture. Sojourners need to figure out how to make the work people are ALREADY doing work FOR us and galvanize a critical mass of Sojourner supporters, signatures, etc. when desired, so that we add value for Others™ when we come on board with pointing out a mess they missed ;- and/supporting their efforts against The Man™/The Power™. JMHO. I’m thinking must of us are too busy Optimizing our Lifestyles on time for Our Hoodini Escapes™ from The Nonsense™ Before It’s Too Late™, to be muling fo’ Savin’ Alla ___ Werk™

You said, ” I’m thinking must of us are too busy Optimizing our Lifestyles on time for Our Hoodini Escapes™ from The Nonsense™ Before It’s Too Late™, to be muling fo’ Savin’ Alla ___ Werk™”

{laughing} I wanna thank you! You perfectly summed up how I feel these days about most “Let’s get together as a group and do X,Y,Z Missions.” Like I’ve said all along, I’m NOT trying to discourage other folks from mobilizing in whatever manner they feel is best. I’m just talking about how I feel.

And THANK YOU for my best laughs of the day when you referenced:

Fighting The Man™…
Fighting The Power™…
…their efforts against The Man™/The Power™…

“…Quandisha™ (lol) will ride/die/march anywhere anytime if you frame the argument such that The Black Family™ or The Black Boy™ or The Black Male™ has been insulted (surely cooning/emasculating for Pepsi isn’t a good look for a StrongGood Black Man™ or the proper example for Our Black Boys™, etc.etc..). You get the picture.”

OMG, it’s all just so ridiculous. This Fighting The Man™/The Power™ stuff truly has reached the point of satire. {more laughter}

For those who have seen the movie Network, it reminds one of how ridiculously corrupt the movie’s fictional Ecumenical Liberation Army (which was already a parody of the Symbionese Liberation Army) became by the end of that movie. {even more laughter} [Sorry, I can’t find a video of the movie’s hilarious scene concerning TV contract negotiations between the network and this supposedly Communist group.]

And with this, I’m closing the comments to this post. THANK YOU to everybody who participated in the conversation!