"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Tuesday, December 1, 2009

Takin' It Up With Da Book: The Truth on Tithing

Readers - this week and next we will examine the doctrine of storehouse tithing.

In several articles here, we will continue to examine this false doctrine of "storehouse tithing" that many pastors continue to teach to their people. The first article was posted a few weeks ago here.

"Storehouse tithing" is a stewardship doctrine that tells a Christian something like this: As an act of obedience to God, you must give 1/10 of all your income to God, just as God commanded the Israelites in the Old Testament to give their "tithe" to God, to the priests at the "storehouse". To not be obedient in meeting this 1/10 standard of giving, is to openly disobey God, and God will hold his blessings from you. And when you, a Christian, give 1/10 of your income to God, you MUST give the entire 1/10 to your "storehouse", which is your local church, and to no other organizations. To give anything LESS than 1/10 of your income to God (at your church) is total disobedience in the matter of stewardship.

The doctrine takes other forms, and the degree to which pastors push it on their people varies greatly. Some pastors set the tithe as a criteria for church lay leaders. Some pastors, like Mac Brunson, believe that God takes this 1/10 threshold so very serious that He will in fact punish a nation economically for the failure of Christians to tithe. Many pastors misuse Malachi 3:10 to accuse Christians of "robbing God" who don't meet the 10% giving threshold. Other pastors teach it as a "principle of giving", that 1/10 is a good idea for Christians, a starting point, without overtly calling people disobedient who don't fork over the full tenth.

My intent in shining a light on this false doctrine is NOT to encourage people to give less to their church, or to be less charitable in their giving. Far from it, it is my desire that people know the truth about this doctrine, and that the preachers who continue to brazenly teach it - especially those that do so in a particularly arrogant and offensive and abusive manner to guilt people into giving - and turns people away from Christianity - are held accountable for their false doctrine. The best way to hold them accountable is to put their words up against credible people who have looked at this doctrine.

We will examine what writers like John McArthur and Charles Ryrie have to say about this doctrine. We will look at what Andreas Kostenberger and David Croteau have written about this doctrine - Kostenburger is a very respected New Testament professor at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Croteau a professor at Liberty University who studied under Kostenberger. Croteau has perhaps written the most extensive and exhaustive work on tithing to date as part of his Ph.D work at SEBTS, which will be published in book form next year. Kostenberger's and Croteau's work have been peer-reviewed and published in the "Bulletin for Biblical Research" - which may not mean much to the average lay person but this is very significant as we shall see. We will compare what these men have said about storehouse tithing as compared to what some of the more rabid teachers of the doctrine say about it.

To give you perhaps one of the best views into what this false doctrine looks like, how it is taught, I recommend reading the following bible study posted at the FBC Jax website under their Theology Driven Ministry materials:

This document is one of the best examples of this false doctrine you will find on the Internet, clearly articulating a hard-line approach urging Christians to fork over 10% of their income to their church to prove their faith and obedience to God. Preachers have preached the doctrine hard, but its rare to find anything IN WRITING like this. The document is a bible lesson that is part of Jim Smyrl's "Theology Driven Ministry 2010 Curriculum" that they are offering to churches for free on their website. Its great that Smyrl is offering free curriculum, but I shudder to think that churches are pulling down this particular document and then teaching it to their people. By the way, its unclear exactly who the author is, as none is given. Darn, those anonymous writers who won't put their name on their material. :)

70 comments:

Anonymous
said...

Had Jesus not so clearly spoke on this matter, I'd be tempted to be swayed out of giving. Especially in these economic times, it would be easy to take matters into our own hands and keep what God asks of us (and money is not ours to begin with). Jesus never gave us the option of ignoring the law, that would be absurd as it would permit murder and adultery. But we are to live beyond it, not having hatred and lust in our hearts.

God spoke of tithing in the OT, and Jesus addressed it clearly in the NT.

We are to go beyond the tithe. You cannot get around the logic and problem that this verse creates for those who want to keep money they believe is theirs.

Luk 11:42 "But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every {kind of} garden herb, and {yet} disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

Now if Jesus tells me I should do something, I'm going to do everything I can to do just that.

Having grown up at FBC Jax under Drs. Lindsay, Sr. and Jr. (I was grown and gone by the time Vines came around.) I am very familiar with storehouse tithing. I take exception with your portrayal of it as a false doctrine.

I think you need to be careful to discern between abusive preaching on tithing and the doctrine itself. They are not one and the same. God knows this isn't the first time some preacher has exploited a doctrine to build their own kingdom. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath.

Anon - I understand, this will be difficult to swallow for many who have been taught tithing by the Lindsays. So just keep an open mind and see what we discuss here, and of course join in with your own thoughts. If you disagree, so be it, we can agree to disagree on this matter.

I would say its important to differentiate between the practice of tithing (giving 1/10 of your income to your church), and the teaching by clergy of "storehouse tithing". If a Christian feels led to contribute 10% or more of their income to their church, and they do it cheerfully, not under compulsion, out of love for the Lord and the lost, without attempting to put that same requirement on others and not to earn favor with God, that is great and I am happy for that person. This discussion will not be about people who give generously - it will be about the doctrine of storehouse tithing taught by modern day evangeligical preachers to guilt people into forking over 10%, or if they don't meet the 10% at least convince them that ALL of what they DO give must come to their church. That is rubbish, and not supported in scripture in the least. It is particularly offensive when this false doctrine is pushed aggressively by pastors who earn hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in salary and other perks, receive huge gifts from the rich folk in their congregation, and then brag about their obedience in giving 10% or 11% while trying to hang the 10% burden on those who have no margin at all.

I will be critical of that doctrine and those who push it, but I would never criticize a person who practices tithing out of their love for Christ. Give generously as you are able and feel led to give.

While I am consistently appalled at the brazen nature in which FBC Jax Watchdog places himself in the position of disregard to the authority God has put in place and disrespect of God's instruction on how to handle disagreement with the Pastor...he is correct on the doctrine of storehouse tithing.

Baptists conveniently "pick and choose" the parts of the law under which they feel we must all be obligated. We are either free from the law or we are not. I struggled with this for many years in my own preaching. Now I preach and practice Grace Giving, with great results.

When Malachi said "bring all the tithes into the storehouse" the "all" was referring to the THREE tithes under which Jews were obligated. Baptists would cough up a lung if they discovered they really needed to bring 30% to fulfill the law. Pick and choose doesn't work!

Leviticus 27 says that the tithe of the Land is the Lord's. It also says a woman is valued at half the rate of a man. How, in the same chapter, do we hold one law as valid and the other as fulfilled?

Jesus spoke to the Pharisees--who were under the Law--and told them that they were doing right, according to the Law. He would not tell those of us who are free from the Law the same thing. Read Paul's comments about putting ourselves under legalism if you need more "convincing".

Now...if Watchdog would realize that being a Watchdog of the Pastor is totally unbiblical and that he is doing harm to the work of the Lord, and to those of us who are Pastors, then all would be well with the world!

Daniel - why, when Jesus addresses Pharisees who openly stated and believed they were justified by keeping the law, do you believe he was addressing YOU? Luke clearly says "But woe to you Pharisees!" Are you a pharisee, Daniel? If so, the context might be applicable to you.

And if it is applicable, where do you "pay the tithe OF MINT and RUE and EVERY GARDEN HERB." Does the church have a storehouse for these items. Daniel, it says "TITHE OF" mint, rue and garden herbs. NOT MONEY.

And who were the Pharisees to give these items to? The Levitical priests. Do you know any priests today to give these to?

Daniel. Where did God speak of tithing income on wages in the OT? Where did Jesus ever give a tithe of his earnings as a carpenter? I follow him and his example. He never tithed his wages or told anyone else to do so. Look it up.

Is Jesus telling you to give 10% of your gross income to the First Baptist Church budget? Really? Where does it say that? I thought he wanted us to give to brothers and sisters in need, the poor, hungry, naked, oppressed, etc. Why would Jesus tell you to give money to a place that would use it to pay exorbitant salaries, hire family members, increase advertising budgets while ministry budgets are cut and his people are in such great need? Perhaps you are robbing God by giving your help to a church that does not need it or use it for God's purposes?

Daniel, thousands of people that God loves could benefit from your charity and love and generosity if you would just quit pouring your sacrificial giving into the budget of the mega church where you attend. Check out the Second Harvest food bank, the City Rescue Mission, the homeless shelter, your co-workers or neighbors, prisoners, orphans, the sick, etc. Maybe they are praying that God will help them in their time of need. Maybe God is waiting on you (and me) to help them instead of giving hundreds of thousands to Team Brunson, Maurilio and advertising.

Please think about it. Pray about it. Read these respected teachings about it.

And I won't even engage you on your assertion that "Jesus never gave us the option of ignoring the law, that would be absurd as it would permit murder and adultery." That is just so absurd, and NO ONE but you believes that, so I won't waste my time on it. Why do you seek to put yourself (and your family?) back under the yoke of the law after Christ has made you free? Although you say you believe that, I do not expect to see you complying with the thousands of Jewish laws (not just 10 commandments) followed by orthodox jews today, including the animal sacrifices though. Plus, Jesus said if you break one you have broken them all.

So, your heart seems right Daniel, but you seem to be brainwashed, gullible, or maybe just hypocritical, picking and choosing the OT laws you wish to still have in effect? And your motives for giving seem misplaced and if so, are not pleasing and acceptable to God.

Now...if Watchdog would realize that being a Watchdog of the Pastor is totally unbiblical and that he is doing harm to the work of the Lord, and to those of us who are Pastors, then all would be well with the world!

December 1, 2009 2:51 PM___________________________________

Pastor - thanks for posting here. Your post was very insightful and helpful. You seem to have honesty and integrity when it comes to this matter of pastors manipulating people to give more than they are giving already to a local church budget.

But why criticize the WD for blogging his views and opinions. It is well accepted and common for those with no voice, no power, and no influence, to use public opinion to try and effect change. These mega pastors have power, money, influence to get their messages out, while the man in the pew has none. A blog is a great way to get concerns a public airing. I will agree that in 99% of the cases, a blog should not be necessary. But when a pastor, the staff, administration and trustees refuse to listen, respond, or acknowledge questions and concerns of its members, it is not "unbiblical" to seek to hold them accountable. The pastor is not God. He is a shepherd. He is not above questioning.

If Jim Smyrl can call Catholic priests cult leaders, and question the Pope, why is it wrong for a laymen to question their hired leaders from time to time?

Suppose you don't have a church. Maybe you have been more or less forced out of your church. Maybe you don't feel led to join another church, or can't find one that meets YOUR criteria for a church. What do you do in regard to "storehouse" tithing then? Suppose the pastor and others are unkind to you, suppose you decide that churches in general have "fallen away" from the real standard that our Lord set up as a real church and not a counterfit business or social meeting place. What do you do then about tithing at all?

If my tithe is to be given to God, how do I get it to him? Must I give it to Joel Osteen or Jesse Duplantis or Rod Parsley or Mac Brunson? You say, "give it where you attend church." But why? Isn't that showing favoritism and partiality and doesn't that diminish my "gift" and "offering" since I (and my family) are receiving so much back in return. I mean, I get to sit in that nice soft pew or chair, I enjoy that heat and A/C, my kids get good bible teachers, I get to see and hear great music and hear good teaching. So to me, by giving to where I attend, I am really being selfish and self centered by giving so I can go into a better building, with better chairs and equipment. This seems to me to be a conflict of interest. Why shouldn't I give my tithe to "God" by giving to a church I DON'T attend?

If I should give someplace just because I attend there, it shouldn't be called tithing or giving, but more or less a user fee or tax. Am I really just giving to myself and my family when I give to where I attend? Just wonderin...

Had Jesus not so clearly spoke on this matter, I'd be tempted to be swayed out of giving. __________________________________

That is the whole point of these blog articles and the articles referenced. To show that Jesus did speak clearly on it and giving 10% of one's income to a local church budget is not taught in the NT or Old, that your pastor knows this, and that he teaches it anyway in hopes of increasing the revenue stream so he can hire family, cruise the Danube, and live like a king.

I believe that the tithe is an Old Covenant law. There were actually three "tithes" for Israel and a third tithe (10%) every three years - thus every Jew gave 33% to the government/Temple.

In the New Covenant, the principle is that you and I as believers are simply "stewards" of God's wealth. Nothing is "ours" - it all belongs to Him.

So, rather than "giving God" a tithe, the real question for the New Covenant believer should be, "How does God wish for me to invest His money?"

Sometimes that means giving far more than 10% to your local church, at times it could mean you give less--because He has directed you to help someone very poor, or provide medical care for a family member, or give to another ministry, etc...

There is an argument, which I admire, that says that nothing in the New Covenant is ever exceeded by the Old. The Jews had one Sabbath Day, but every day is a Sabbath rest for the believer. The Jews were stoned for the act adultery, but we are to have the mind of Christ and not even lust in our hearts, etc...

The Christian who is not a giver is a contradiction. The Christian who does not give regularly, consistently and cheerfully to his local place of worship and ministry is contradicting the instructions of the Apostle Paul.

But, the law of tithing, is definitely Old Covenant.

The New Covenant principle of giving far exceeds that old law -- and we simply ask God "how much" and "where" on a regular basis. This includes all areas of life, including the way we live (how much should we spend on God's house where we live), how much we spend on vacation (where would God have us go and why), etc...

"We are to go beyond the tithe. You cannot get around the logic and problem that this verse creates for those who want to keep money they believe is theirs.

Luk 11:42 "But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every {kind of} garden herb, and {yet} disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

That passage in context actually contradicts your view. You have been taught wrong. But I assume it means you are taking a percentage of the herbs you grow to some Jewish temple?

Now...if Watchdog would realize that being a Watchdog of the Pastor is totally unbiblical and that he is doing harm to the work of the Lord, and to those of us who are Pastors, then all would be well with the world!

December 1, 2009 2:51 PM

Mac harms the Gospel. Pastor is mentioned ONCE in the NT. It is not some special class of protected Christian. It is a spiritual gift and no where are we told that there is only one main pastor in the Body of Christ. It is a spiritual function that edifies the Body.

A true 'pastor' would look more like the Matthew 5 salt elements.

Mac is nothing but a celebrity that uses the Name of our Precious Lord for his own benefit.

An interesting new study may help in understanding the divergent views expressed above: http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/11/creating_god_in_ones_own_image.phpFor many religious people, the popular question "What would Jesus do?" is essentially the same as "What would I do?" That's the message from an intriguing and controversial new study by Nicholas Epley from the University of Chicago.Epley's results are sure to spark controversy, but their most important lesson is that relying on a deity to guide one's decisions and judgments is little more than spiritual sockpuppetry. To quote Epley himself: "People may use religious agents as a moral compass, forming impressions and making decisions based on what they presume God as the ultimate moral authority would believe or want. The central feature of a compass, however, is that it points north no matter what direction a person is facing. This research suggests that, unlike an actual compass, inferences about God's beliefs may instead point people further in whatever direction they are already facing."

If I should give someplace just because I attend there, it shouldn't be called tithing or giving, but more or less a user fee or tax. Am I really just giving to myself and my family when I give to where I attend? Just wonderin...

December 1, 2009 3:54 PM

Excellent point that needs to be developed. What did the early church do with the money and goods given?

We see Paul talking about the offerings for the Jerusalem church mentioned in several letters. These people had never met one another but the Jerusalem church was suffering persecution so the Saints gave to help them personally. Not to pay off their mortgage for their church building.

If you want to know what was done with the money, then study why there is such a thing as a deacon. It wasn't to pay a big salary to the 'orator' on Sunday morning or to build or maintain a fancy building. Or even for programs or hiring your family members.

Many erroneously believe that unless tithing is taught, there will be no giving at all.

What they are really afraid of is that their will not be enough for the high salaries and maintaining these castles we call churches.

When you help a brother or sister in need, you have done it for Jesus Christ. And, you are a much better steward of His resources.

I would like for those who believe in tithing to research what the Apostle Paul had to say about tithing. First, he calls our attention to understanding the Gospel which Jesus gave to him. He was to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, Colossians 2:26-27. Secondly, this was hidden even from the Jewish leaders and they were the individuals who were given the "oracles of God" Romans 3:2.

When one studies what Paul writes throughout his epistles you will NOT find any reference to TITHING. He never mentioned it even to his sons in the faith, Timothy or Titus. Its not there. Next, Paul reminds us in Col 3:23 "And whatsoever ye do, do it hearily, as to the Lord, and not unto men". He knew the praise of God was much more important than that of a MAN!!!

He above anyone else knew that the Old Testament Law of Tithing was over.. It was not apart of the New Testament. If it had been required, as many preachers profess, then I believe he (Paul) would have spoken of it. He had studied and read Deut 26:15 "Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey". That place is Israel not the UNITED STATES which was not even known for 4000 more years.

Whenever someone advises another to do something contrary to scripture it is incorrect. That's why so many church members suffer by drinking "milk"(biblical illiteracy) even into their 70's and 80's. Many believe what some pastor has told them without ever researching the facts for themselves. This is also how cults get started. These pastors know and count on this. Most people never pick up their Bibles except on Sunday morning when they carry (notice I did not say study just carry) it to church. It is also why some people get confused when God is talking specifically to the Jews rather than the Gentiles or New Testament Church.

Tithing is not the only hangup that some preachers postulate. They believe that you can be saved and then lost again. Some even teach we are now in the Millenium. Some don't believe in music in the services. Some even believe you must be baptised in order to be saved. What is astounding is that these false teachers have great followings!!!

Finally, check out this verse as to dealing with wages...Col 4:1 "Masters give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven". This would not only concern wages, but duties and honors as well. This should cause great concern to those Christian businessmen who fail to practice this commandment. Sort of like some staff member who has been there for 15-25 years making around $45,000 and a new hired relative of the pastor making $100,000 and they just arrived there and know very little of the history and inner workings of that particular church. I wonder how many mega preachers have done this as often as they scramble and find a clever way to teach tithing? I have always believed it was more better to give than receive, however the reverse is more often the case particularly in these troubling times. Just thinking.

"Now...if Watchdog would realize that being a Watchdog of the Pastor is totally unbiblical and that he is doing harm to the work of the Lord, and to those of us who are Pastors, then all would be well with the world!"

December 1, 2009 2:51 PM

This is another "false teaching"!!!

By this type of errant reasoning a bad pastor is left free to run amuck with absolutely no accountablity,with distastrous consequences as we have seen in Darrell Gilyard and Bob Gray.

That "is" unbiblical!!!

1 Tim.5:17 states "Let the Elder(s) who rule well be counted worthy of double honor"..

Well I would assume that if the Elder(s)don't rule well they should'nt get anything you think???

Further in 1 Tim 5:19-20 "Do not receive an accusation against and Elder except from two or three witnesses.Those(Elders)who are "sinning" rebuke in the presence of "ALL",that the rest also may fear...

How will the other Elders or the people know to "rebuke" a sinning Elder(s)unless they have the right and the authority to discern his actions and whether they fit the Biblical critrea???

I suggest this is the very problem with so many of our Churches today is the belief that they(pastors)are supposely not accountable to any earthly authority!!!

To the one who wondered if giving to his own church was self-serving...no!

While I do not believe believers are under a law obligation to tithe (we are under a grace obligation), the New Testament does give some guidelines. (In my previous post I mentioned that I used to preach tithing, now preach grace-giving). Those guidelines--1) Give cheerfully, as proposed in your heart, not under compulsion.2) Take care of your family first. One who does not do so is worse than an infidel.3) The one who is taught should share his possessions with the one who teaches him. Galatians 6:6. This is a key point to the discussion. "Do not muzzle the ox" is an instruction given in the context of paying the preacher.4) Brothers and sister in Christ should be a top priority in our giving ("especially to the household of faith").

The problem with any kind of legalism is that it produces a self-righteous attitude. Under the law, Baptists feel smug because they gave 10% (to the penny!)...while they may have been very disobedient to the spirit. Follow the Spirit, under the watchful eye of the New Testament, and you can never go wrong.

When Baptists begin to be Spirit-led and grace-fueled in their giving...what a day that will be! As long as we give under the burden of a law from which we have been set free, we will be condemning of others, satisfied with self, and walking in the flesh (which leads to death).

In regards to the Watchdog's blog--it is based on the desires of the flesh rather than the instruction of the Word. There is a way to handle a disagreement in the family. If indeed the dog has tried the restoration teaching of the scripture and has not succesfully swayed the pastor and other church leadership to repent (assuming such repentance is in order), then the dog should either submit, realizing that neither Brunson nor Vines nor Lindsey(x2) has reached the state of perfection. If he cannot submit, I would suggest finding another fine local church and serving the Lord with gladness. Such a move would make a far greater Gospel impact than a whine-blog.

When he does submit or remove himself from under the authority of the church's pastor, then he should keep the blog going as a positive venue for theological discussion, as is taking place in this conversation on tithing.

...and their are a thousand more topics in which the average Baptist Pastor misuses Scripture--either to benefit himself or out of ignorance. I shudder when I think of some of my past sermons!

Dog--your blog can be a blessing. Or it can be an embarrassing blot on your heritage.

By the way, dog--you mentioned your frustration with the fact that no name was given on the FBC JAX lesson plan on tithing. Perhaps I've missed it, but I can't find your name on this blog. I must be overlooking it. I will remove my "anonymous" and give name, church, website, and even my cell phone number...just as soon as you do the same.

From a Pastor who loves the Lord, loves the Word, loves the church...and even loves self-appointed watchdogs (but doesn't always invite them to supper).

Sprint received over 8 million requests for its customers' information in the past 13 months. That doesn't count requests for basic identification and billing information, or wiretapping requests, or requests to monitor who is calling who, or even requests for less-precise location data based on which cell phone towers a cell phone was in contact with. That's just GPS. And, that's not including legal requests from civil litigants, or from foreign intelligence investigators. That's just law enforcement. And, that's not counting the few other major cell phone carriers like AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile. That's just Sprint.

Watchdog....just tell us what you believe about giving, tithing, etc...not what other writers have said. Just show us from the Bible and the Bible alone where it says how we should give and what motivation we have for giving.

I still believe this wouldn't be an issue if you didn't have such a problem with Mac Brunson.

Kenneth - please, be my guest, you first. Feel free to tell us what the Bible says about tithing. You're the minister here, so we'll defer to your views. I'll share mine later over the next few weeks and I will use very credible sources to back up my views. I'm sure you will do the same, right?

Your last comment doesn't make sense, really. That the false doctrine of tithing would not be a problem in our churches if I didn't have a problem with Mac Brunson? I don't follow.

But if you want to give Mac Brunson credit, feel free. It is his ridiculous statements regarding giving and tithing from the pulpit that HAVE shocked people into looking at this doctrine in light of scripture. Even the Lindsay's taught it, but they never rose to the abusive level that we've seen at FBC Jax. So in a sense, we can thank Mac for awakening people to this false doctrine!

I and the people of Emmanuel are not unfamiliar with budgetary shortfalls during this time of year. We, too, are 8% behind budget in giving. I wrote the following article (edited for the blog) to our church family two weeks ago:..."For this reason, I am asking for your help. We will not promise you God’s blessings if you give to Emmanuel – you already have them in Christ. We will not try to guilt you into giving to your church – that’s between you and God. We will simply tell you of our need, and ask you to help us these last eight Sundays of the year to catch up financially. If you have been blessed by Christ and the ministries of Emmanuel, then we ask you to give. If God sees fit for us not to meet our budget this year, then we as a church will be making some very tough decisions regarding ministry, personnel and missions. Those tough meetings will begin in January if we have not met our budget, but I am hopeful that this will not have to happen ..."

I anticipate our church will again surpass our budget in terms of our giving, but if we do not because of the current economy, then the person who should receive the largest pay cut (in both percentage and dollars) for our new fiscal year (April 2010 ) is me. That's the way it should be. There is nothing worse in ministry than for the lowest paid personnel to be given cuts when the highest paid personnel go unaffected. Frankly, I believe it should be the reverse.

I wrote a long response and then deleted it. I will simply say this as my last comment on your blog:

This whole blog shows that you have a lack of faith in GOD. If you had any faith you'd simply pray about what you didn't like about Brunson and his leadership and leave the results up to GOD.

To answer your question. I wasn't talking about the church I was talking about you and your dislike of Brunson.

As far as my beliefs on giving. I believe that the Earth and everything in it is GODs. I think the 10% is a good goal but I believe it's all HIS anyway. I try to make my tithe greather than my largest bill which is my house payment.

Anon December 1, 2009 6:16 PM said:Do not muzzle the ox" is an instruction given in the context of paying the preacher

The topic is honor, not salary. If salary, then who is paid "single honor"? And if the deacons get single pay, which is typically zero, then what is double pay for pastors? Where are salaries for paid professionals given? Why does scripture tell us how to care for widows (and we largely ignore these explicit scriptures) but not pastors? Did Paul ever say he must have his rightful pay, or did he say he wouldn't use this right? Are today's pastors above him, that they should demand a salary?

If indeed the dog has tried the restoration teaching of the scripture and has not succesfully swayed the pastor and other church leadership to repent (assuming such repentance is in order), then the dog should either submit, realizing that neither Brunson nor Vines nor Lindsey(x2) has reached the state of perfection. If he cannot submit,… When he does submit or remove himself from under the authority of the church's pastor,

Show us scriptures that, in the Greek, speak of the authority of pastors. Be advised that Hebrews contains no such terminology.

Also, I'd like to know why, if pastors are "under rowers", they have titles, offices, salaries, and stand at the helm of the ship? To learn more about under rowers, please read the excellent articles at A Wilderness Voice.

‪Kenneth in Ga.‬ December 2, 2009 7:34 AM said:If you had any faith you'd simply pray about what you didn't like about Brunson and his leadership and leave the results up to GOD.

1 Cor. 5:12 "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?"

1 Cor. 6:5 "I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?"

And we could turn the question around: If pastors had any faith, they'd stop beating the sheep about tithing, criticizing the pastor, etc. and leave the results up to GOD. Are we parts of one Body or are some parts more equal than others? Where is ANY human called the head of a church?

----------------Pastor PrymeProfile hidden because of 2 Cor. 12:6b - "so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me."

The Executive Pastor of Education (Jim Smyrl) soon after being hired sent a letter for additional financial support to some members in the church to continue to support his personal 501C ministry. He noted that his wife would be the only "paid" employee.

Yes, the resources are made available as noted in WD article, but they certainly are not "freebies".

I personally wanted to throw the letter back in his face, and that was the year (2007) I lost total respect for him as his letter was an insult, being he was called to be a full time pastor at First Baptist.

The Truth on Tithing is that we are called to Tith - that's called Obedience.

What the Rev Symyrl is doing with his 501C I call personal greediness!

My kids go to a covenant private Christian school. This school is made up of Godly Teachers. It functions better than the church I am a member of, it looks more like a NT church than the one I attend. So, my tuition is supporting the teachers of my kids doing greater than my pastor or Sunday School teachers. So my tuition is 20% tithe if the tithe is to be given to teaching authority and maintenance. Seems to me that I get more bang for the buck it the institutions are similar.Allen

As far as my beliefs on giving. I believe that the Earth and everything in it is GODs. I think the 10% is a good goal but I believe it's all HIS anyway. I try to make my tithe greather than my largest bill which is my house payment.

December 2, 2009 7:34 AM__________________________________

Kenneth - to what you wrote above, I can only say "So what?" Thanks for sharing. Good for you.

3) The one who is taught should share his possessions with the one who teaches him. Galatians 6:6. This is a key point to the discussion. "Do not muzzle the ox" is an instruction given in the context of paying the preacher.4) Brothers and sister in Christ should be a top priority in our giving ("especially to the household of faith").___________________________________

I agree. So it looks like you agree with me on my point that this has nothing to do with "tithing." Thanks for the confirmation.

I will remove my "anonymous" and give name, church, website, and even my cell phone number...just as soon as you do the same._________________________________

This from a "pastor" who seems to think his behavior should be equal to that of the WD? He is a pastor, the WD is not. Church trustees called WD a coward for not putting his name on his blog, yet the church posts articles with no author's name. And this pastor can't seem to discern the difference? Why not start tithing when the WD does the same, pastor? Sheesh. Some of you so called pastors embarrass yourselves when you come on her and make statements. Maybe that is why you remain anonymous?

Daniel B - I did want to thank you for posting. A few anons were a bit ugly toward you, but I do appreciate you.

I would never, ever want to sway you out of giving to your church or other charities as you feel led to give. That is not the purpose of these posts. I know of you and your wife's generosity in using your time and talents and I'm sure your finances as well. I know of your work with the rescue mission and have been blessed by your musical talents.

But I WOULD like to sway you into seeing that a preacher or spiritual leader who beats people up by setting a false standard of 10% as being the magic threshold between obedience and disobeience, and between blessings and cursings, is a preacher preaching a false doctrine. I probably won't sway you in this, but that's OK. I hope you will at least consider what is shared here in the next few weeks, and feel free to offer your thoughts on the matter.

The Executive Pastor of Education (Jim Smyrl) soon after being hired sent a letter for additional financial support to some members in the church to continue to support his personal 501C ministry. He noted that his wife would be the only "paid" employee. __________________________________

To be fair to Smyrl, his 501(c)3 is not selling anything. He's not trying to sell his books or his sermons, or enticing people to use their money to sail down the Danube with him or to walk in the footsteps of Jesus with him in Israel. I don't see him trying to use his 501(c)3 to build his brand, or to use the A-Group in marketing him or his ministry.

He has a calling to teach lay people to study and teach the bible expositorally. As far as I can tell, that is what his 501(c)3 is about. I'm told the funds he raises through his organization are used for trips to teach lay people and lay pastors how to study the bible.

"After consulting with the local prosecutor's office, investigators also decided there was insufficient evidence to issue a subpoena that would have given them access to records from his hospital visit after the crash, Montes said."

Notice that the FHP "consulted with" the local prosecutor's office in an effort to get subpoena's, but there was insufficient evidence to obtain them.

I guess these FHP guys need to contact Detective Robert Hinson next time they need a subpoena for records that are private. And the local prosecutor's office should call Mr. Siegel's office, who apparently issue subpoena's based on "no criminal wrongdoing."

And some kool-aid drinkers (like Frank Mackesy and Angela Corey) still go on the news and tell newspaper reporters that Hinson did nothing wrong!

Let's get these trials moving so the whole state can see how NOT to abuse law enforcement and SAO powers.

"In regards to the Watchdog's blog--it is based on the desires of the flesh rather than the instruction of the Word." There is a way to handle a disagreement in the family. If indeed the dog has tried the restoration teaching of the scripture and has not succesfully swayed the pastor and other church leadership to repent (assuming such repentance is in order), then the dog should either submit, realizing that neither Brunson nor Vines nor Lindsey(x2) has reached the state of perfection. If he cannot submit, I would suggest finding another fine local church and serving the Lord with gladness. Such a move would make a far greater Gospel impact than a whine-blog.

When he does submit or remove himself from under the authority of the church's pastor, then he should keep the blog going as a positive venue for theological discussion, as is taking place in this conversation on tithing."

Friend, your comment scares me more than just about anything else I read on this blog.

Tom, me, you and all the readers here...IF saved, are under the authority of Jesus Christ. We are under the authority of the civil authorities and we are under the authority of our employer or customers if we own a business.

But the ground is level at the foot of the Cross. There is no clergy/laity distinction in the Body. As a matter of fact, we are all priests if saved. Some are more mature than others but that only means they are more lowly and more of a servant to others in the Body.

I am curious about the scripture you use to define yourself as an "authority" over others in the Body of Christ?

If you quote Hebrews 13:17 back to me, I am going to have to give you the full translation error treatment. (smile)

Having a title is so dangerous for us and it is a pit we can fall into with the sin of thinking we are spiritually above others and their authority within the Body of Christ.

"The topic is honor, not salary. If salary, then who is paid "single honor"? And if the deacons get single pay, which is typically zero, then what is double pay for pastors? Where are salaries for paid professionals given? Why does scripture tell us how to care for widows (and we largely ignore these explicit scriptures) but not pastors? Did Paul ever say he must have his rightful pay, or did he say he wouldn't use this right? Are today's pastors above him, that they should demand a salary?"

Pastor Pryme, You are right on brother. That 'double honor' passage is proof texted all the time. But you have pointed out the illogic of thinking that way.

I have often wondered why there is no teaching on salary for all the spiritual gifts given by the Holy Spirit that are exercised in the Body?

It's funny, isn't it, that the ones who shout the loudest about giving so God will bless (which is really investing, not giving) never take their own advice? If giving is a magic multiplier, then why don't these preachers lead by example and give everything they've got to the needy?

And why is only one gift of the Spirit a paid position? Other gifts are expected to work for free as well as support "clergy".

And we wonder why there is such a thing as "pastor burnout". Maybe if we all stopped trying to run a business and oversee every department, this wouldn't happen. All the other people use their spiritual gifts after working all day, yet they get a guilt trip if they say they need a break.

Neither Vines nor Lindsay ever told me that I was "obligated to tithe" if I joined the church. They never told me that gas prices were high or that the economy was suffering because of non-tithers. These men were respected theologians and measured their words carefully. They never said "you didn't know that, well you know it now." They did, of course, believe that God used members that tithed to finance the work in Jacksonville. Lindsay taught his people to love Jesus and to tithe. I don't have a problem with that. Just like he used the Chest of Joash as a method of giving. This is much better than paying thousands to Maurilio (imagine what Lindsay would say about him!) to help with "fundraising."

And, those two were NOT arrogant, brazen jerks that put their family on staff and beat the sheep. They were humble pastors that labored faithfully for decades at the same church.

I agree with Matt in his comments about Anonymous who said to treat disagreements with Brunson "as a family matter."

"A family matter" is one of the phrases highlighted in a list of spiritually abusive terms on a site that examines spiritual abuse called What Language Does Your Church Speak? (http://batteredsheep.com/church-speak.html)

Here's what it says:

A Family matter: When the church leadership doesn't want the embarrassment of public disclosure in the community at large regarding a scandal in the church, that scandal becomes a "family matter" and is not to be discussed with people outside of the church or group. That the community at large has a vital and legitimate interest in the matter is ignored, even when the matter involves wrong-doing such as criminal sexual conduct, child or wife abuse, a suspicious death and so on. In such cases the primary reason for something to be "a family matter" is so the leadership or church can "save face". See also "Tell it not in Gath".

Though WD isn't accusing the church leadership of matters like those listed above, it is curious that the same reasoning and phrasing is used. It's cover-up language and serves as a red flag.

I like what Stephen Olford says about Hebrews 13:17 - Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

The church of God is not a democracy, but a theocracy: a place where the Son of God rules (Hebrews 3:6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.). Therefore, the church is not a sphere where every man has equal status and authority, but rather a fellowship in which the Head of the house appoints each to his own place and duty (Matthew 25:14-15 For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. Mark 13:34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch.). Thus, to refuse honor to whom the Lord has qualified to lead His people is to reject the authority of the Head of God’s house. This divine rulership teaches us to respect:

Neither Vines nor Lindsay ever told me that I was "obligated to tithe" if I joined the church.

Both Vines and Lindsey preached it is our Christian responsibility to tithe to the church. If the dog is right and this is false doctrine then he is saying Vines and Lindsey were ignorant at best and false teachers at worst.

It matters not how it comes our, with a smooth calm voice or a screaming rant, if it is false, it is false. The enemy can use both the calm and irate to proclaim his message.

Anon December 3, 2009 7:51 AMHow do you determine who “the Lord has qualified to lead His people”? The last person who told you God talked to him? Jim Jones? Ted Haggard? It’s no wonder that there are 36,000 + Christian sects. This blog is just a microcosm of Christianity and look at all of the contradictions by “God’s Anointed”. As Kelly Bundy would say “it wobbles the mind”

"Both Vines and Lindsey preached it is our Christian responsibility to tithe to the church. If the dog is right and this is false doctrine then he is saying Vines and Lindsey were ignorant at best and false teachers at worst."

Tithing is not a false docrine in itself.

I was baptised by Dr.Lindsay and have the upmost respect for him as a geniune man of God!

But it is "ABSOLUTELY FALSE" too attempt to imply,force,coerce,or anything else the tithe on the Chruch;;; "PERIOD"!!!

I like what Stephen Olford says about Hebrews 13:17 - Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

I like what the Greek actually says about Heb. 13:7 and 17---Remember those who lead you and spoke the Word of God to you. Consider the pattern of their behavior and imitate their faith.

Be persuaded by your leaders and defer to them, for they watch out for your souls and will have to give an account. Let this be a joy for them and don't complain, which would be to your disadvantage.

I have read parts of this current blog. It is clear that there is a bent, here, that pastors should not beat the sheep over the head to COMPEL THEM TO TITHE. I agree with that.

What I do not agree with is the notion that a tithe should not go to the LOCAL church. Also, that the tithe was ONLY MEANT FOR THE OLD TESTAMENT people.

My experience is that Godly preachers of my time, and before, have preached STOREHOUSE TITHEING. Among those were Jerry Vines, Homer Lindsay, and Jerry Falwell to name a few. Clearly, in the Storehouse message,was the emphesis that all that one gives should be from a LOVING GRATEFUL HEART.

As strong Christians, and I think most of you are, we better start concentrating our efforts on the many BAD CHANGES that are permiating our churches. Go into some of the churches around you and see if they are as sound as they once were. I offer that you will be amazed at the apostacy you will find.

"My experience is that Godly preachers of my time, and before, have preached STOREHOUSE TITHEING. Among those were Jerry Vines, Homer Lindsay, and Jerry Falwell to name a few. Clearly, in the Storehouse message,was the emphesis that all that one gives should be from a LOVING GRATEFUL HEART."

December 3, 2009 11:20 AM

Anon as much as I respect and respected these men.They were and are wrong in attempting to force tithing on the Church!!!

The Apostle Paul writing to the Galatians stated..."But from those who "seemed to be something"––whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows "PERSONAL FAVORITISM" to "NO" man––for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.[Gal.2:6]

Sincere are not,it makes no difference to me as well.

These men were wrong to teach and preach a specific set amount for the New Test.Believer to give..."PERIOD"!!!

Friend, you might like it but it is false teaching intertwined with some truth. The most dangerous kind.

First of all, the translation is of 13:17 is horrible. Of course, the KJ translators were not about to the most common Koine Greek words because they were laboring under a King with a church/state mentality to boot.

Think about it. Should folks have obeyed Jim Jones and drank the koolaid because they were taught he was the 'authority'?

If not, then why? That 'why' is where the bad translation breaks down. It actually contradicts other scripture so we know it cannot be right.

This is where this man's teaching really becomes dangerous false teaching:

"Thus, to refuse honor to whom the Lord has qualified to lead His people is to reject the authority of the Head of God’s house."

Questions:

1. How does one determine who the Lord has qualified? Is it a seminary degree? Ordination? Title? All are man made or man-conferred and have nothing to do with the indwelling Holy Spirt Who gives pure Widsom from above.

2. What does honor imply in this man's words?

3. What does 'God's House' mean? We are God's House because if we are saved, He lives in US. The Cross invalidated the Temple and tore the Temple veil in two.

Pastor Pryme,

Thanks so much for the Greek rendering which is exactly how it should read.

Here is a great teaching on this verse that needs to be studied by all Bereans:

Matt, I'm not sure if my "thank you" is in moderation or just didn't post. But I want to also thank you for the link to that article.

I haven't read other articles there, but I hope that they are consistent. The reason I say this is because I've seen so many in the house church movement who clearly see the error of "elder rule" yet turn around and cite it as justification for excluding half the Body-- women-- from what they know is a lowly, humble service.

For those who believe tithing is taught in the New Testament take a good long look at Galations chapter 3. You will find the apostle Paul states in vs 10 " For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the Book of the Law to do them. In vs 11 it says "that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God". vs. 24 " Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. vvs 25 "But after that faith is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster".

The Jews were commanded to tithe in order for the Tribe of Levi to maintain the tabernacle and offer up sacrifices to God. We are no longer under the law as these and many other verses reveal. What we are under is GRACE.

The apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. In the Books of Matt, Mark, Luke, and John and part of the book of Acts and even James and Hebrews the scriptures were written to the Jews. It is not until Paul is converted on the Damascus Road that we find ourselves as Gentiles grafted into the True Vine. Ask yourself this question: When Philip revealed the saving power of Jesus Christ to the Ethiopian did he teach him tithing? No, but he did baptise him. How about Peter when he preached to the family and those in the house of Cornelius? The answer is NO. How about when Paul & Silas preached to the Philippian jailer? Did they bring up tithing? The answer is a resounding NO. You cannot find tithing in any of Pauls Epistles as he above anyone else who had the real message from God knew that tithing and the law had come to an end. Paul did lead them to saving faith and baptised them Acts 16 vs 33 "He and his house". Review Acts 10 vs 48 Cornelius and his house was also saved and baptised.

I believe the church has bought into this idea of tithing because it appears good and the proper thing to do. Sadly, it is a mistake to place anyone back under bondage to the LAW. Just having one person believe that his/her belief system should embrace tithing is pitiful and wrong. They for whatever reason could mistakenly believe they are doing works and that it will bring prosperity into their lives. This is how cults get started. So many today preach tithing and the prosperity it will bring to you. If you believe in tithing then you have to do all the rest of the Old Testament including sacrificing animals, etc,etc,etc.

God loves a cheerful giver...lets leave it there and there alone. God does not need our money. He needs our witness. Buildings that are occupied a few hours a week do not comprise the church for any or all denominations. The church is made up of all born again believers whether you meet in a yard, a barn, a school, at a wedding, a funeral, a banquent, a dinner, or anywhere else when two or three are gathered. We need to get back to basics if we are going to ever be successful in reaching any city for Jesus Christ. Tithing is just putting a yoke around someone without ever telling them the truth about tithing and where it truly belongs.

One good thing about getting to heaven, will be finding out which was the correct Bible. The TRUE word of God. Then everyone using the wrong versions will finally know the truth. Then I get to say "I told you so".

I asked Bro Rod which Bible he uses. He was gracious enough to respond.Would you be so kind as to give us your Bible of choice? Thank you!

December 3, 2009 7:23 PM

Well, this is kind of embarassing but I use many. It depends on where I am. I have a bible in the car, office, and most rooms of the house.

I read the NKJV. If I am reading to children, I use the NLT or the Good News (I know, I know). I sometimes read the ESV and I also read the TNIV. I also have my father's Bible, an RSV and my mom's which is an AV, believe it or not.

I have the KJV but never use it. Although I think it is pretty good translation barring a few problems. I own a Message bible but cannot stand it. Same with NIV.

I like the ESV the least. It has some serious problems in my view and was way over hyped. Mark Strauss wrote a very good paper on the problems. Some of the stuff is hilarious but poses problems with understanding.

I read the Better Bible Blog of translators and have learned quite a bit about the challenges of translating and it only confirms my view that the Holy Spirit illuminates understanding ofthe Word.

But mostly, I use an interlinear to check many verses. Since that is free online, I would recommend everyone use it.

Go to "scripture4all" and download the program.

In the end, the Holy Spirit interprets with any translation if we diligently seek.

I haven't read other articles there, but I hope that they are consistent. The reason I say this is because I've seen so many in the house church movement who clearly see the error of "elder rule" yet turn around and cite it as justification for excluding half the Body-- women-- from what they know is a lowly, humble service.

December 3, 2009 8:27 PM

I agree, Pastor. They could take some lessons from our brothers and sisters in the underground house church in China.

Especially when these women are jailed for preaching the Word to the lost men of China.

This is one reason I love the TNIV. I like to see the eyes of teen girls light up when they hear with their precious ears the admonitions of our Lord apply directly to them and not just the 'brothers'. That word does not mean brothers AND sisters to this teen generation.

And I too consult many translations, and have also been using scripture4all. The concordant method has its limitations but it really does bring the Greek and Hebrew closer to those who don't know those languages. It also gives the parsing, enabling the reader to get a very good sense of the words without having to look up each one in other references.

The Better Bibles Blog and others linked there is another great resource. I don't agree with everything said there but I always learn a lot.

About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"