Sunday, December 16, 2007

Alright, this will be my last post on this subject for a while. Most of this comes in response to a reader's email.

The heart of my issues with PvP rewards is probably more philosophical than anything else. I don't like rewarding failure. I like rewarding success more. And to me the PvP loot system is very close to excessively rewarding failure. It does a good job at rewarding success, it just doesn't do a good job of NOT rewarding failure, if that makes any sense.

Further, if there's one thing I hate in this game, it is people who do not even try. And while you occasionally see people like that in PvE, it seems like PvP attracts more of them. For example, people who go AFK in battlegrounds, or teams that deliberately lose in Arena. And to me, it seems like this behaviour is caused by the way the reward system is structured. In contrast, in PvE, it is fairly hard to get rewards if you don't try, especially on a guild or team level.

Basically my ideal system of rewards would go like:

1. Person who does not try - gets nothing2. Person who tries but is not very successful - gets something decent3. Person who tries and is successful - gets something good

And to me, quality of reward matters. S3/T6 should be reserved for Category 3. Category 2 maybe gets Badge Reward/S2/S1/T4/T5 depending on how unsuccessful you are. Category 1 should die in a fire.

From the raider point of view, this argument is not about how Category 3 should be treated, it's about how Categories 2 and 1 should be treated. PvE gives them T4/T5 or nothing, respectively. PvP gives them lesser amounts of S3. I just think that is an excessive reward, especially for Category 1.

Please note that I generally consider myself to be in Category 2 in both PvE and in PvP (when I do participate).

To be honest, I probably shouldn't have titled the original post "Welfare Epics". I meant it as more of a tongue-in-cheek reference to Tigole's Blizzcon presentation.

Posted by
Rohan

34 comments:

PvE1. Person gets /gkicked, or does not have the skills or dedication to clear even Karazhan. Very little loot.2. Person successfully enters 25 man raids, and gets pretty good loot.3. Person puts lots of TIME and some skill into the game, and gets the best rewards from Hyjal and Black Temple.PvP1. Person sucks, AFKs, gets honor LEECHED from them for AFKing, gets the level 70 blue honor sets.2. Every piece of Arena gear requires a rating. Maybe even as low as 1550 for gloves, and then increasing. People have to be somewhat skilled and serious to get 4/5 pieces of their gear. Honestly, I think Vindicator’s gear should require some sort of rating. I don’t know why Blizzard started making the sets so much smaller, but in something like PvP, where every serious team has essentially the exact same gear, I don’t see why the belt/boots/bracers/necklace/rings couldn’t be set pieces as well.3. Serious PvPers who get 5/5 Vengeful, and S3 weapons for being incredibly skilled.

I would honestly like to see EVERY piece of epic PvP gear require a rating. If they did that, however, I think they’d need to fix the 2v2 servers. Since 2v2 teams are the most abundant, and the queue times are often in excess of 5-8 minutes per game…they need to open smaller, easier to form and manage teams up to more casual players – and waiting such a long time between games is a deterrent to casual players.

This also brings up one more issue – in my opinion – the top PvP players are more skilled than many of the top PvE players. I’d compare guilds with world-first kills to the top rated Arena teams. Other guilds, even high level guilds now are just following a strategy. Being in BT now means you spent a lot of time – a lot of time – and are good at following directions. For the raid leaders, there’s more organization skill (which is a gaming skill, too), but for PvPers (especially of the 5v5 variety) it emphasizes SKILL. You have to know your class…and all other classes. You have to be quick and organized, and honestly, just good. Overall, in my opinion, it’s harder to excel at PvP than it is at PvE.

Interesting point Keelie. That being good at PvP is a skill and being good at PvE is more of a time investment. It does ring very true to me.

It's a bit the same w both PvE and PvP - that beeing good gets you to a certain level. And going further needs something more.

The best example is a very skilled but badly geared rogue in PvP. He can stunlock and kill about every other class if he knows what he is doing - since the moves are talent and not gear bound.

About this other thing with needing to earn your gear by S1 to get S2 etc, or ratings needed will not work. Lets have the scenario with a new to PvP and one doing arena since TBC released. The new one can never keep up. He will need to go the same way as the PvP geared one. And will therefore be a year behind. He will actually fare worse - since it will be almost impossible to get a decent rating when he cant buy any good gear.

Play a priest in PvP, Keelie. PvPing in fresh out of 70 in PvE blues and green pieces (remember, there are a handful of pieces that are useful for PvP) is an act of futility. Rarely, if ever, I last more than a few seconds with one half-brained if I forget to zone in with my DPS gear (or worst, my healing gear). Requiring a rating for all pieces would mean that a few classes and several specs will not have a chance at this year to reach any rating.

The post above cites a lvl 70 priest in blues and greens, and is already thinking about his epics and worried that he won't get a high enough rating. Since he refers to "this year", I assume that he refers to S3 gear. A lvl 70 in blues and greens already targeting S3 gear? That's the part of PvP that bugs me.

In PvE, you can't go get T5-6 gear right at lvl 70 wearing blues and greens. In fact, very few PvE players will EVER see the T6 gear. There are not many who get into PvE and even have T6 as an attainable goal, never mind being worried about getting it "this year."

I think that much of the PvP crowd has a sense of entitlement. Something like "I do PvP so I will get my S3 pieces." That bugs me as a PvE player. I've been playing for a while and I have no reasonable expectation of ever getting T6 gear.

So I agree with the post. To get the S3 gear should require some kind of continued success in Arena, and only teams with dedication and ability would get it.

Handful of pieces, right? Well, 2 are capes (choose Vengeful), 2 are head (choose Battlecast set), 2 are legs (again, Battlecast), 2 are waist (choose Unyielding). The only non-repeating piece is the Spirit Shard ring. If you go all tailoring, you might have around 8k health and 70 resilience. The health is nice, but the resilience is too low even by S1 standards.

Now, PvE-wise, a priest have much more options open to gear up. I can pick up tailoring which yields me some of the best sets available all around, I can get the BoE sets, I have the BoJ gear plus instance loots and reputation rewards.

And just in case, I'm not the type of player that guards the cave/farm/starting points. I like to go out there and mingle in the battle. That's how I know the difference between being in my different sets, and how each spec behaves under pressure. And no matter how I spec, the only way I can buy myself more time to do my job (either support healing or support DPS), is via gear. Or pick up a pocket Paladin.

And PvE does require skills. You also need to think on your feet, and be aware of your surroundings. A well timed mind control, or a blessing can be the difference between a boss kill and a wipe.

This series of posts has been pretty uninteresting to me, but today's post was dead on, particularly about the 3 groups, and about how group 1 gets epics from PvP while getting nothing at all from PvE. Totally lame imho.

One thing that Blizzard really, REALLY needs to look at fixing though, is that good PvP specs and good PvE specs are often different. They obviously want us to do both (if we want to) on the same characters, so why does my great tanking spec have to mean I suck at PvP? I know one can respec, but they should try to change that. It wouldn't be as bad if PvP epics weren't so easy to come by, but as it is, you generally have to spec for PvE in order to have a chance at gear; then you go into the Arenas, suck, and still get handed some epics.

Astute, as always.Your last series of posts have been an excellent read.

I think that a big reason why this issue is so heated at times is the problem that "nice things help you succeed more easily."

Rewards, by nature, are desirable, but are desirable because they improve personal performance, and THIS, I think, is the impediment.

In other words, in a system where the quality of the rewards you get is based on your success, the rewards won giving you increased success creates a vicious cycle. A catch 22.

As a player setting out to do PvP, my goal is to earn the best rewards I can, as quickly as possible.

If I go about trying to accomplish this in a full set of greens, the extent of my possible success will be limited to a maximum level because of this.After a couple weeks of thus-limited minor success, I earn myself a few pieces of season 3 gear.The rewards I have earned allow me to be more successful in the following weeks, because they increase my power and viability in the setting. My maximum potential success, without having any actual personal skill improvement, will be higher than before for no reason other than these rewards.

The problem is that in PvP, the challenges being faced do not change. The killing power represented by an opposing team in full season 3 gear is no different whether I myself am wearing season 3 too or greens.LIKE in PvE, rewards increase my personal power and viability in the setting that earned them, but UNLIKE PvE the setting its self doesn’t change.

If an amazingly skilled arena team wearing season 1 manages to fight their way to the 2000 bracket, they will be facing the exact same opponents as they would be if they had been wearing season 3.And it’s a lot easier doing it wearing season 3, given the choice.

People forget something very characteristic of PvE; you are always under-geared for progression.

The thing that feels weird to me as a PvEer looking at the arena rewards system is that it's comparable to farming teir 6 before attempting to kill Gruul.

One does not gear your raid in t4 to kill Gruul, do so, and then go gear your raid in t5 and come back to kill Gruul, and then gear your raid in t6 and once again go kill Gruul.You work on t5 instances wearing t4, and t6 instances wearing t5. My personal power in PvE does NOT match the challenges presented. And this is what I find wrong with the idea that new arena players need to be “brought up to speed as quickly as possible”.The reward given by an accomplishment should not be required in order to achieve the accomplishment. But if /dancing in an arena for 10 games a week is adequate to earn the arena points to grant you a piece of season 3, it is difficult for a raider to understand why season 3 gear is necessary simply to earn arena points.

Where the problem arises is the fact that we, as lazy people all of us, follow the path of least resistance.

Bob is a very skilled player.Using a character wearing greens, Bob is capable of reaching 1700 rating.Give him season 1 and he can achieve as high as 1900 rating.Give Bob a full set of Season 3 and he can get to heights of 2200 rating or higher.

Sally is one of Bob’s friends.Her goal is to get an 1850 rating. She, however, has no reason to work towards this goal wearing greens, or season 1. That would be more difficult than it would be wearing full season 3.

It doesn’t matter that she COULD do even better than her goal wearing that gear.It also doesn’t matter than she COULD accomplish her goal wearing only season 1.

Whether she vastly over-gears or vastly under-gears her accomplishment makes no difference. 1850 rating grants the same number of arena points either way.

When a raid group in PvE achieves a goal, doing so bears characteristics that are not present in PvP:-There is no access to rewards (personal power increases) that are more advanced than that encounter. When stuck on Lady Vashj you cannot just go get Mount Hyjal items and come back later to try again wearing tier 6.-There is no benefit to achievements lower than your maximum potential. The rewards from more difficult challenges are always superior and it is always a better use of time in PvE to work towards the most difficult challenge your group is physically capable of.

I consider wearing season 3 gear simply to grind to the level where you are past the point that was achievable using a lower gear level to be “over-gearing the challenge”.The common statement is that the goal is to gear up and then power up to the higher brackets, “where things are actually competitive and skill based”.

I’m forced to ask myself, why isn’t this the case with the lower brackets? Gruul is challenging to raid groups on Gruul, but doable if each player brings their A-game. Kael is challenging to groups on Kael, but doable if everyone gives their utmost. Why aren’t the 1500, 1600, and 1700 (etc.) brackets like this for teams in the 1500s, 1600s, and 1700s as well?

It's really apples and oranges. Almost every BG is made of of two PuGs that don't communicate very well with each other. All of the Kara runs I've done are the exact opposite.

And the Curator doesn't care how often you kill him and take his stuff. He'll still show up for the fight next week. If you don't reward people for just playing in AV, for example, eventually the side that loses the most just won't show up anymore. Then the other side will get tired of 30 min queues and quit signing up.

Frankly I think the bottom line to all this is that people who prefer to gear up in instances are upset that someone else can get a purple without doing the same thing they are doing. In the end, it's fine the way it is...the best PvP gear is from Arena, not BGs and in order to really compete in that environment, you'll have to enchant and gem in a way that makes your purples rather poor for PvE use. Somehow I doubt a Mage with 400 Resil and 600 spell damage is much good against Shade.

The issue at hand is not allowing different paths of progression (PvP vs PvE), but negating the ez-l00t to those who don't work for it.

The pitfall all of us are failing to see is case 1 in PvE. As Keelie puts it:

"Person gets /gkicked, or does not have the skills or dedication to clear even Karazhan. Very little loot."

We are assuming the guild leadership is responsible and wants to progress cleanly. But usually Cat 1 person won't have any problem buying their way into a raid (with the new smaller raids, it's harder than before, tho) for a chance of getting something.

The arena system is supposed to give people who don't want to play a million hours a week a chance at a reward.

If you play 1 hour a day, do you not deserve to ever see purples? Right now it takes about a month of BGs at an hour a day to get some S1 gear. Does that bug you too? Maybe if BGs dropped blues when I wtfpwned CCed trash Mages in the first room I would be able to see from your side of the story.

I think Michael is right. This somehow boils down to: OMG they get the gear I have worked so hard for without effort. Thats envy. Justified or not.

I think we should stop looking at everyone else all the time and look to our selves for a minute.

The real question is: Am I having fun?If you are all is good - if not come to a conclusion why. Stop bother to much about what other ppl gets.

For raiders I must say this. I do envy you. A while back I was a raider too, but guild and game mechanics makes it impossible to be a raider without being hardcore gamer. Noone takes a player that can raid once a week tops and plays one or two nights more casually. And if they will - you wont get enough gear to go on to the next raid instance when the guild is ready.

This is a bit like a country. The hardcore gamers are the elitist conservatists that want to keep thier advantage and not let anyone else get close. And Blizzard is the government that tries to even the field for all to have a joyful experience.

I wish PVEers would be content with their rewards and just leave PVPers alone. Now I do both.. I use to Raid with my Restoration Druid, and PVP with him also.. Mostly BGs and some Arena..

PVP is very gear dependent and to make it more accessible to others the rewards are a little easier to get. BUT, they are PVP rewards.. it's good for PVPing.. You won't find a TOP DPSer or a TOP Healer wearing Arena gear and running Hyjal in that gear. It's crap for PVE.

PVE gear is good for PVEing.. which includes, farming, grinding REP, raiding, 5 man instances etc. And with doing those things, you stand a great chance of getting recipes, potions, gold, etc etc that PVPers can't get in BGs or Arena.

Blizzard doesn't want raiders to be king of everything. Before Arena, Raiders use to pretty much dominate PVP. And that's not what they want.

So again.. PVP is very gear dependent.. ie a player with S2 gear will normally kick the crap out of a player with blues and greens.. even if they are equally geared. So this allows PVPers to compete against each other more along the lines of skill and talent specs and having a good group, and less about gear.

PVP gear takes nothing away from Raiders.. unless you are just looking at the color of the name..

I think the main issue with making PvP a progression is that gear for PvP is often baseline. EVERY single competitive Arena team has the exact same gear. 5/5 Vengeful (or at least all Merciless/Vengeful, all Vindicator's, their Medallion, and a S2/S3 weapon. To get past a 1750 rating almost requires that gear-set.

In regard to that, I'd still like to see all the gear require a rating, but nothing higher than 1750 or so. I just don't want to see people with a 1300 rating running around in 4/5 Vengeful at the end of S3. People in 4/5 Vengeful and full honor-grind Vindicator's destroying people (because of gear) who are just starting in the 1500 bracket because those players didn't have the skill to raise themselves out of the beginner bracket. Even a group of good players who has the potential to raise themselves higher will have trouble against a team that severely outgears them.

I know NOT having rating requirements is supposed to make entry into the Arena system easier, but I suspect that in the long run, it doesn't help that much.

It's like the example mentioned last post - when the ratings reset, you have teams that should be 2000 rated facing teams that should be 1500 rated.

Given enough time, you're able to get really good gear in Arena/BG without being any good. I think that's why a lot of people like it so much. People say they like it because it's a lesser investment of time (which it is), but mainly it's just a more flexible investment of time. If you plan on getting an 1850-2000 rating, plan on spending almost as much time as a raider, IMO. Unless you go like 200-0, it's still a grind to get your rating up if you're winning 60-50, or 60-40.

As for the Priest - you SHOULDN'T be able to come into the Arenas and be competitive in blue/greens, just as you shouldn't be able to be a good raider in blue/greens without good gems and enchants and consumables. There is a full set of BG blues (with resilience) which I feel should be the step up point to getting Arena gear, not these people I see running around with Vindicator's gear and level 65 greens.

Also, having to work for you gear some more would breed better players, not people who AFK in AV or make 5v5 teams to play 10 losses each week.

If you lose all 10 games every week at the end of 12 weeks you will be down to nothing get no points and have approximately 1800 points which is enough for one piece of equipment. Ask me how I know this (Never partner with a protection warrior)

It took me quite a bit of effort to slowly get my rating up with better classes and better players but guess what? Everybody else got better too. So my rating isnt exactly soaring.

People who are complaining about PvP being too easy are either being an elitist jerks or don't PvP.

I must say, I get a good laugh whenever I see "PVP is so gear dependent". That is one of the poorest arguments I have EVER heard for why top end PVP gear is as easy to get as it is. That it is a way for gamers who don't have the time to raid to progress is also not really that valid. It is a way for Them to play, and have fun yes, but progress? That falls to how you define it, and as you can guess I'm a raider, and don't really see PVP as progression (still valid play style, and fun, just doesn't fit with what I've seen as a def of progression.)

Back to the original point. "PVP is so gear dependent".... Raiding isn't? there may be the rare case where one person can get an almost free ride from greens into t4 or 5 epics, but in general no. If your raid doesn't have T4 gear (and or some of the equivalent crafted/boe pieces etc) you don't stand a chance beyond T4. so, yeah, raiding is almost a gear dependent, without a way to "quickly get people up to speed"

One final note, arena seasons are not, and will not be a level playing field while previous season's points can buy the new season's gear. when S3 came out, i saw, on my RP server 4 teams walking around in every piece of T3 that didn't require a rating. If you are going to tell me that there was some kind of level playing field there, you better have a very convincing argument (yes these were the top teams from S2 on the server) So, lets see, they have a near ludicrous advantage beginning of season, even more once they use that advantage to get the rated items, which slowly diminishes throughout the season, but once they already have a high rating, and are harder to knock off the top.

If PVP is gear dependent, and you want a level playing field, there is a simple solution, discussed before. Give everyone the same gear, but then why would people pvp... if the PVPers are right, for love of PVP. How do you reward sucess, give them great status symbols (mounts titles whatever you want) that aren't used in the arena. You would find I think, that many people stop PVPing, Its a nice sentiment to think that we all want to compete on a level playing field, but really, that isn't Human nature, We (in general) want to win, and have every possible chance to do so, We do anything we can to get an advantage, unfair or not....a couple of examples for those not convinced. stock car racing. there are a ton of rules on performance, what you can or cannot use, but not on power output, or in a strict sense power to weight ratio. therefore each crew does everything they can to do what they think will improve performance. Now, even if all the cars were identical fans would have fun, but not all the drivers would (remember we are the drivers, not the fans in this case) cooking competitions, even when there are strict rules on main ingredient everyone does different things to it for what they see as an advantage. if everyone had to cook the same exact thing, it would be boring to watch, judge, and participate in. the list goes on, but Hopefully this makes sense.

Recap, the argument: PVP is so gear dependent, has little ground, since PVE end game is too. so many people talk about a level playing field, when really at least most of them do not want a level field, just the same advantages they see other people having.

@Tego: For PvP, gear is the means, for PvE, gear is the end. As long as you cannot integrate this simple rule, you won't be able to see both sides of the argument.

when S3 came out, i saw, on my RP server 4 teams walking around in every piece of T3 that didn't require a rating.

I call BS. Since the most which carries over are 5000 points, at best you could get 3 pieces of S3 gear.

Give everyone the same gear, but then why would people pvp... if the PVPers are right, for love of PVP. How do you reward sucess, give them great status symbols (mounts titles whatever you want) that aren't used in the arena. You would find I think, that many people stop PVPing,Do the same on raids, give everyone a kit of tiered raid gear which stays in the instance, and you'll find that raiding will have even more trouble attracting players.

so many people talk about a level playing field, when really at least most of them do not want a level field, just the same advantages they see other people having.In this whole affair what I've been mostly seeing are some raiders not wanting non-raiders to get access to purples unless they subject themselves to raiding, and will go out of their way to demean and belittle non-raiders. Everyone else, including raiders who don't consider themselves hardcore, don't see an issue with PvP.

@daniel:Right now it takes about a month of BGs at an hour a day to get some S1 gear.

It takes somewhat less than a month, at an hour a day, to get an S1 piece. Just do the daily battleground. That usually averages around 400 honor baselevel, plus or minus (depending on the battleground) plus another 400 honor bonus because it's the daily. That's approximately 800 honor per day. Plus some cash, which you can use for, say, gemming the S1 piece once you get it...

@ Gwaendar:The problem is a philosophical one. As with many philosophical problems, there is no easy solution, nor standard. What we can at most do is control our actions (like, not buying arena points even if your team is lackluster) and, if we are in charge, the policies we can affect (like gkicking anyone that doesn't put any dedication to raiding).

@Keelie:Unless Season 3 lasts a couple of years, I doubt any 1300 team will ever get their hands on 4 pieces of the current set if they started now. At most, they might be getting 2 pieces of S3.

How did they did it in S2 and starting S3? Ask Elephante of Mannoroth ( http://outofmana.blogspot.com/2007/11/5-things-not-to-do-if-you-bought-your.html ).

The gear I mentioned is obtainable via other ways that excluded PvP, as per your example of requiring some sort of rating on all the gear (BG and arena).

And it's entirely possible that you will see starting players with Vindicator's and lvl 65 greens. They might have bought some greens to supplement stamina missing in those pieces, or they don't know how to play (which is an option always).

The problem is that PVP's can do nothing and get epic level rewards that simply is not possible for PvE players.

Not all PvP players do nothing , many work hard for their gear. But all should be forced to work hard for there gear.

And there is a simple way to enforce this.

1) arenas are only fought by those in similar gear and with similar rating.

2) you only get arena points fro winning. No free points just for showing up.

3) same with BG, No honor is awarded to a non winning team, any one entering a BG is locked into it till it ends

This removes the concept of welfare epics as you have to win to get anything. and in BG forces team work and a real attempt to win rather than just milking for honor sinsce if you loose you will not get any of that honor.

Locking people in BG? Loser gets nothing at all?Most ludicrous proposals ever uttered in this context. On every Battlegroup, there's certain BGs one faction wins a lot more often. If you implement those two things, the weaker side will simply stop queuing up.

As always, spoken from the point of view of someone who cannot get into his head that in PvP, the gear is not the end, just an enabler.

Oh! Now I get it! Raiders only raid because they want to put on purple peices of equipment that give them slighty better stats than their last item! I've been farming for every single upgrade I can get my hands on because I'm a purpzed crazed monster and not because my raid group needs every leg up we can get to get through each increasingly difficult encounter we face. We force eachother to bring consumables because we like to laugh at eachother for wasting gold on them!

What you fail to understand is why gear is important to Raiders. Besides being necessary to get to down the next boss ahead, they are the only kind of trophy we get to carry around as proof of what we have done. Arena players have a built in rating system that shows their accomplishments. They get a wider array of titles to earn based on how successful they are, while the only PvE title comes from killing a T4 boss. (The mount issue is negligible, because the frequency of players receiving armored netherdrakes and players receiving boss dropped mounts are about equal).

So when people start walking around in T4/T5/T6 lookalikes without putting in effort at all to receive them, yes, we are getting concerned, because that guy /dance-ing his way to get it is diminishing the significance of our ONLY trophies, which we have to spend a significant time investment to receive.

What you fail to understand is why gear is important to Raiders. Besides being necessary to get to down the next boss ahead, they are the only kind of trophy we get to carry around as proof of what we have done.I understand perfectly, on the contrary, and I've said time and time again that PvE reward system needs an adjustment, including more means of recognition. You're barking up the wrong tree, or even the wrong forest, I don't think I know of any PvPer who disagrees with that.

because that guy /dance-ing his way to get it is diminishing the significance of our ONLY trophies, which we have to spend a significant time investment to receive.

Oh snap, fraps the dancer or it didn't happen. As for the significant time investment, you're sorely mistaken, you don't have to. Nobody's holding a gun to your head as far as I know. You can get your gear that way, or you can spend an equally significant time into getting a 2400 arena rating and titles instead.

We force eachother to bring consumables because we like to laugh at eachother for wasting gold on them!If you have to force yourself to do whatever it takes to keep yourself raiding and it is actually such a chore which gets even more soured because you cannot prance around in Ironforge in unique gear to what you believe is universal admiration (snort), basking in the recognition of such meaningful things as killing a boss in a video game, if you don't simply raid for the enjoyment of it and the satisfaction it can bring you (and hopefully your guild) of toppling a challenge, then there's little anyone can do to help you, I'm sorry to say.But what these 5 posts here have shown time and time again, and contrary to what some people have written on other sites, the only people who have issues with the arena, seek to have its system changed, lock it away behind ratings, demean it by any ways, belittle those who practice it and in general spew their envious bile under tons and tons of virtual ink are a tiny fringe of extremist raiders.

Face it, the problem isn't arena, it isn't the small minority who cheat their way to gear, and to a point it isn't even the lack of other means of recognition given to raiding, or better loot distribution, or distinct models.

Well, backing away and thinking about the issue, I've taken a broader philosophical view.

I know from firsthand interaction and talking to people and reading and research that it's possible to cheat or freeload or RMT your way to gear in either PvP or PvE. It happens, it's been documented, and so now I'm (unfortunately) not impressed by the gear of a person I don't know.

And while I am annoyed that those hypothetical Arena dancers are harming others, the PvP system, and causing PvP to fall into general disrepute, I find them to be rather pathetic - as pathetic as any cheater and freeloader in either PvP or PvE. Since they didn't earn their gear, they won't use their gear to its potential. After all, PvP gear won't get them raid slots, and if they are cave-dwellers, those of us who actually know PvP combat will destroy them if they think that PvP is ONLY about gear.

I like the way the current system works PvE wise, but it needs to be tweaked a bit more PvP wise.

If someone worked their butt-off in a BG, but everyone else slacked off and that team lost, I don't believe that person should be punished. In fact, I think that they should be more rewarded. Honor in BGs should reflect personal valor and skill, somehow.

As for arenas, I think it's fine. The better players get shoulders, weapons, and gear faster. The ones that farm points and do the minimum games, like the current situation I'm in, will take weeks to get the best gear, unlike the 2k teams that score more than 800 points a week.

Locking people in BG? Loser gets nothing at all? Most ludicrous proposals ever uttered in this context. On every Battlegroup, there's certain BGs one faction wins a lot more often. If you implement those two things, the weaker side will simply stop queuing up.

As always, spoken from the point of view of someone who cannot get into his head that in PvP, the gear is not the end, just an enabler.

9:13 AM, December 20, 2007"

The above is absolute BS.

If its true then get rid of the gear all together. All Battle grounds and areas are to run naked the only reward to be titles. a contest of pure skill. Want to see just how fast the BG and arenas empty.

They reward system for PVP is simply broken, Yes those who put in serious effort get their rewards faster, But those who simply leech also get rewards. The removal of rewarding those who just leech is were the issue is. Until the PVP world can accept a removal of those rewards it will always have a Bad reputation amongst players who have to work for every reward the get.

And yes, I have Kara on farm, But i also Do arena 3v3, and am working when I can on the Conquerer title from the BG's. I am horrid at 3v3 and don't expect any rewards, I do only for the practice in my PvE gear and PvE spec'd.

The removal of rewarding those who just leech is were the issue is. Until the PVP world can accept a removal of those rewards it will always have a Bad reputation amongst players who have to work for every reward the get.

And until PvE world learns to accept its easier to enter the PvE world than it is to enter the arena, you guys will understand, that removing the gear is not the way you need to approach the arena. Not at first.

If you could craft an epic set of arena gear with decent resilience and stamina, supplement it with other crafted and quested rewards, then yes, I would liked to see a removal of "welfare epics".

I see it like this.

Raid gear and PvE gear need to be defined. Raid gear is whats obtained from the high level raids. The tier gear, the 20 AP gems.

PvE gear should be obtained through instancing, and rep rewards.

The above should be the first step to getting raid gear, and it is.

I would like to see a system like this for PvP. I believe blizzard should make the rep with BGs more important. Allow special BG rewards like the battle standards, but based on rep, not solely honor.

This would allow PvP gear to be classified as rep rewards from BGs, and Honor gear from the arena.

Then, I would like to see the bridge between PvP and PvE formed via crafting. I would liked to see both epic PvP and PvE sets obtainable for all classes and factions.

Then you could start penalizing those who leech their way to epics.

But as it is now, if you started awarding nothing for losing, then there would be no reason to participate in PvP. You would get steamrolled by those with better gear, or when the team ratings reset. Which would lead to you learning counter tactics, but not having the gear to back it up.

If its true then get rid of the gear all together. All Battle grounds and areas are to run naked the only reward to be titles. a contest of pure skill. Want to see just how fast the BG and arenas empty.

Right. Let's think this true and get rid of ALL the gear. Run PvE naked too, just tweak the encounters. A contest of pure tactics. Want to see just how fast raiding stops forever.

Until the PVP world can accept a removal of those rewards it will always have a Bad reputation amongst players who have to work for every reward the get.

And we'll just pretend nobody has ever sold a spot in a raid to undergeared people, nobody has ever taken a 25th or a 40th person totally undergeared through a T2 or T5 instance to gear them up that they could get gear without working for it. Heck, nobody has ever stolen a raid ID.

"I understand perfectly, on the contrary, and I've said time and time again that PvE reward system needs an adjustment, including more means of recognition. You're barking up the wrong tree, or even the wrong forest, I don't think I know of any PvPer who disagrees with that."

No, you said twice that while in PvP "gear is the means", and PvE "gear is the end" as if they were some mutual exclusion. Its a ridiculous satement to make, and is anti-raiding.

My entire "gear as trophy" bit was because you asked "why would you care? What have they taken away from you or your gaming experience, or the enjoyment you had from overcoming raid challenges?". Yes, the primary enjoyment from raids comes from killing bosses, the gear that drops is the secondary component. It is difficult to acheive thus unique.

"Trophy" was an admittedly bad word to use, but my argument still stants. Humor me when I say that the aesthetics of PvP progression bother me.

At level 1 you start out in makeshift arms and armor and work your way up into progressively cooler gear (usually). This again is replicated in raiding.

It is not replicated in PvP at all well. New players can skip from fresh green/blue gear to S3, and if they put in a decent effort at Arena, you will receive more of it (this is a good thing!). After a while, everyone accumulates the same, best gear for the Arenas. The visible disctinction between merely above average Arena teams and the highest rated teams is negligible. I've seen it happen on my own server.

Meanwhile, the visible distinction in gear between somone below lvl 30 and somone at lvl 70 is readily apparent. The distinction between a guild in BT and a guild just starting SSC is apparent.

Blizzard agrees that there should be a more visible distinction for successful PvPers. Its why S3 shoulders are ratings locked. I don't think they go far enough. At the same time, I realize theres an obvious gear imbalance that simply having a hard ratings locking on every peice of gear would introduce. Eliminating earning gear altogether would take the fun out of having a character a player customizes and grows in strength over time. (Also Blizzard would be crazy to eliminate one grind without introducing another)

Conceivably, a solution that would satisfy me is that there should be a system in place where low skilled PvPers and high skilled PvPers settle into gear sets that are visibly different yet competitively equal. Adittionally, obtaining the lesser tier does not penalize somone time wise when they want to upgrade to the greater tiear.