Wanted to offer this up to you experienced Kravists out there and see if anyone had ideas/options/actions to take from this scenario. BTW this actually took place in the next town East of me and is something that's been happening on Long Island quite frequently withing the past year or so:

Yesterday, around dinner time, the ‘Smiths’ were getting ready to eat. They were also expecting a guest. The doorbell rings, Mr. Smith opens the door without asking who it is or looking to see- immediately the door is forced open and two men, 19-22 in age, with pistols, come in screaming and pistol whipping Mr. Smith in the head and knocking him down. Then they told each of the guests to get on the floor with their hands behind their head while they tear through their house for valuables. They leave (on foot) to a van parked on the corner.

I understand the first mistake of opening the door without checking - but would there be anything to do in that situation? Would it be absurd to think of even attempting something?

Welcome any thoughts.

_________________________
"Hard Work beats Talent any time Talent fails to work hard."

Well it hasn't happened in my area, but I am aware of the gang problem.

I've been doing constant research into RBSD systems and in this scenario that you depicted, I don't think there's anything you can do. These thugs are armed. You are not. The best thing to do is give them what they want. On the other hand, given that these are the type of people who plan crimes in advance and probably know the law pretty well, one thing you can do is fake a heart attack. Why? Now instead of a robbery charge, it's attempted murder. They know that dealing with a man who collapses to the floor and holding his chest, screaming that he's having a heart attack, will make them rethink their plan. They might high-tail it out of there. Of course, I personally would only attempt this if I somehow knew these thugs we're gonna kill us. Why? Well, if they knock me down to the ground, it's on their terms. They have the control. But if I collapse to the floor, clinging my hands to my chest, now I have the control, psychologically speaking.

It's like the old saying, "A good offense is the best defense". Keep the doors locked, always ask/look who it is. With the scenario you've described, the best thing to do at that point was to get a good description of the men, and let them take what the want. Having more than one man to deal with, and family members at risk, makes for a deadly situation. If they were intent on killing you or family members, then it would be different all together. Your VCR/DVD, TV etc. isn't worth a loved ones life.

Yes, always keep doors locked and only a fool would open the door without seeing who it is. I also like to keep a firearm or some other weapon not too far from main point of my home's entry stashed. Call me paranoid, but things happen. Letting them in is out of the question. Once inside, they can now tie you up, torture you, rape you, then murder you and quietly slip out with your valuable AFTERWARDS. Sorry, not going to give home invaders a nice, comfortable, safe place to torture me for hours without one heck of a fight.

I guess we're both paranoid, Glockmeister, because I keep that same scenario at my house. We keep the place locked tight, and only open the doors after we're sure who's there. As for weapons, mine are stashed all over the house, and in very non-descript places and kinds... from knives, to pistols, to machete's to screwdrivers.

They're in "non-threatening" locations, but very accessible and designed to deal with threats confined to the space available (no machete in the bathroom, but there could be a pistol, knife or screwdriver in the closet or drawer).

That being said, I'm still comfortable being able to disable or kill someone with my "unweaponed" skills, but home invasions, etc. aren't "dojo" situations, and the guys doing them usually come in dealing violence with weapons, so there's no reason to give them the advantage from the "get go".

I like the bumper sticker I saw at a gun show recently, it read: "This location guarded with a shotgun three nights a week... you get to guess which three nights"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

I'd pull out my nine and bust a cap yo. Or rather, a 38 special revolver, heck maybe even a 357 mag, my two favorties, maybe both, my attackers never can tell for sure what I might use! My favorite. Or

_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

1. 2 guys bust into your house with firearms, and you have no reason to think that they are there specifically to kill you (if they are there to rob you, as opposed to the husband of a woman you are sleeping with who you figure is there to kill you), do what ever they want, give them what ever they want, and hope that it doesn't involve oral sex.

2. I have 2 large tear gas blasters and 2 hard resin 24 inch batons around the house - a set by the door and a set by my bed. I can't imagine that any threat that doesn't involve a firearm will get pat me with those. any theat that involves a firearm, see 1.

3. I don't want a gun in the house. if I were to keep a gun in the house, it would be locked in a touchpad safe next to my bed. I have nothing against guns, but the threat that is posed by having a gun around the house is a great deal higher than any threat of home invasion where I live.

4. I hate to get insulting, but having a number of differnt firearms and bladed weapons around the house is not the way to protect yourself, it is the way to get yourself killed or kill a family member or nieghbor. if you really believe that the threat justifies having a gun around the house, decide what the best firearm for you is - I would say it comes down to either a late model 9 mm with a large magazine, or a 20 gauge mossburg shotgun, depending on your house and how you live, your skills, your body etc. get a couple of the one you choose, put them in touchpad safes, one by the front door and one by the bed. having a bunch of different weapons around the house, if you are lucky enough that nobody is killed by accident, you will find yourself hesitating over the different weapons at get yourself killed. best bet, get some gas and a stick - best way to defend your house.

I agree, your guns should either be on your person or locked in a safe. Mainly for the reasons that have been mentioned. Another good reason is that if your home is robbed when your at work or away, criminals have now obtained new weapons. I have talked to a few police officers and they are more than concerned about this kind of situation. A criminal may rob your house with a crowbar, but walk out with a rifle or pistol. That would mean your weapon could now be used in some sort of crime, maybe another robbery, or even a murder? The police don't need any more guns on the street, and you don't need to live with the guilt of someone innocent getting hurt.

_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

a few months ago I read a magazine article where 4 security experts were interviewed about how they protected their houses. 2 ex-cops, 2 ex-secret service. 3 of the 4 didn't keep firearms in their houses, 2 of those had nightsticks. the only one who keep a firearm in his house had a single 9 mm in a safe that he used for bodyguard work.

Obviously we disagree, and since I have no idea what your basis of opinion is, other than disagreement, you cite nothing except another opinion of how to defend one's home.Nothing wrong with your weapons selections, but your access to them is quite bad.

I spent two years working in a prison and another two years working undercover, so I know how to handle both my guns and the kind of situations where they might be necessary. I seldom if ever shoot my kids, my wife, or my neighbors, and do consider it insulting that you seem to think that because someone handles firearms differently from you that they're wrong.

Quote: I have 2 large tear gas blasters and 2 hard resin 24 inch batons around the house

Have you ever used mace or tear gas? It disables everybody in the area, not just the perpitrator, and the last thing you need with an assault defense is blurred vision. I also have batons all over the house, and use them regularly in jujutsu practice so I'm not just swinging wildly and breaking the lamps with them. If you've got them, I hope you practice with them.

As for my weapons selection, take a look at what most major police agencies are carrying now... 9MM or .40 cal, which are my two "base guns". The .357 and .44 are if more firepower are necessary... and the knives... a perpetrator would never see them until they were stuck or cut with them.

Everyone in my house is an adult now, and they've been trained to stand down in any kind of home assault situation and let me handle it. Everybody except my Shepherd knows not to attack... and he only does when told to...

Quote: I don't want a gun in the house.

Well, that's your preference, not a hard and fast rule for everyone else. I like having guns around, especially after being personally introduced to all the scum that's floating around out there hitting on innocent victims. How do you know that someone isn't going to kill you?.. the answer is you don't . If they're in my house with a drawn weapon, they're most likely going to die there. I'd give myself better odds at staying alive than you, if for no other reason, because I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an intruder.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Quote: A criminal may rob your house with a crowbar, but walk out with a rifle or pistol.

...not without a 65 pound Shepherd chewing on his leg first...

As for finding the weapons, the uproar at my house would cause more than enough problems to prevent a burglary. Even my car alarms go off if somebody gets into my house, and while the guns are readily accessible, they aren't easily found. You have to know where to look...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

I don't mean to be a castle crasher, but how exactly by telling the whole world you have firearms hidden in every room make your place safer from burglary? lol...sorry, just didn't see the wisdom there.

I think a criminal would rather break in a home where he knew noone was home or knew noone was armed. If he knows people are home and armed he's an idiot or Dadon1. If you do choose to have a firearm please do yourself a favor and get safety and handling training.

I like the sticker on my dad's front window "Bad Dog,Good Shot" it says it all.

_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

hehe...I'd feel sorry for a poor kid coming to your house to pick up his prom date and get taken down by a repelling recon team from the trees. "drop the corsage and kick it over here! I said drop it, scum!"

Quote:Obviously we disagree, and since I have no idea what your basis of opinion is, other than disagreement, you cite nothing except another opinion of how to defend one's home.Nothing wrong with your weapons selections, but your access to them is quite bad.

I spent two years working in a prison and another two years working undercover, so I know how to handle both my guns and the kind of situations where they might be necessary. I seldom if ever shoot my kids, my wife, or my neighbors, and do consider it insulting that you seem to think that because someone handles firearms differently from you that they're wrong.

Quote: I have 2 large tear gas blasters and 2 hard resin 24 inch batons around the house

Have you ever used mace or tear gas? It disables everybody in the area, not just the perpitrator, and the last thing you need with an assault defense is blurred vision. I also have batons all over the house, and use them regularly in jujutsu practice so I'm not just swinging wildly and breaking the lamps with them. If you've got them, I hope you practice with them.

As for my weapons selection, take a look at what most major police agencies are carrying now... 9MM or .40 cal, which are my two "base guns". The .357 and .44 are if more firepower are necessary... and the knives... a perpetrator would never see them until they were stuck or cut with them.

Everyone in my house is an adult now, and they've been trained to stand down in any kind of home assault situation and let me handle it. Everybody except my Shepherd knows not to attack... and he only does when told to...

Quote: I don't want a gun in the house.

Well, that's your preference, not a hard and fast rule for everyone else. I like having guns around, especially after being personally introduced to all the scum that's floating around out there hitting on innocent victims. How do you know that someone isn't going to kill you?.. the answer is you don't . If they're in my house with a drawn weapon, they're most likely going to die there. I'd give myself better odds at staying alive than you, if for no other reason, because I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an intruder.

WW - sorry if I was a little insulting, frankly, I find that when people arm themselves in the way that you have, it usually means that they do not know that much about weapons. we obviously have our own experiences and backgrounds, and you have gotten a different persepctive than I have on how to arm yourself.

just a couple of quick answers

1. my background is military and in security- I was in a good unit of the israeli military, and I went on to train soldiers and security people in other parts of the world, and then to bodyguard for a little while. doesn't make my views any better than yours, but I do know a little something about how to secure a building. as importantly - I have been involved in what is essentially home invasion from the "badguy" side dozens if not hundreds of times.

2.I sincirly do not want to offend you, I find that many people I do know keep weapons that have very serious firepower and ammo that is very hard in residential neighborhoods that have closely placed buildings made of sheetrock and pressed lumber. effectivly, many people have fireamrs that if they fired them in their house they would go into a nieghbors house. that scares me.

3. I go by a relativly simple principle - if they want me dead, I am dead. believe me, if somebody wants to bust into your house in the middle of the night to kill you, and he knows what he is doing, you are dead (actually, if he really wants you dead, he'll get you on your way to work, but that is another story) it is't that easy for a middle aged family man to wake up at 3 am and get involved in a firefight with somebody who wants to kill him. also, in my town, there have been 2 murders in 20 some years, both were when a gangster from ny city got lost and got into a conflict with somebody on the road. so I am not preparing for a violent home invasion, I am preparing for a teenager, or a burglar, or a drug addict.

4. you are right, you are better prepared than me, for more possiblities. but I think that if you were to take into account the risk of having he weapons around and the risk of the weapons being stolen, and calculate it with the marginal advantage of being so prepared, I am not sure how the calculation would run.

5. I know that american leo doctrine leans towards larger guns. I still like smaller ones. I would rather put 4 9mm rounds into somebody that 1 .45. but that is a personal thing - that is how I was trained. I didn't encournter that many enemies over 200 pounds. what I would say is that having too many different types of firearms around is a mistake, in my opinion. having been in a number of firefights, with very very well trained people, I believe that simplicity is extremly important. I wouldn't have 2 different ammo firearms for use in home defence - if I wanted to keep other firearms around the house, I would keep them seperate from the ones I was using.

6.tear gas - I have used tear gas a lot. here is the thing. I want a home invader out of my house. I don't want to kill him, or capture him, or hurt him. I will do those, if I have to. but the object of the excersize is to get him out of my house. so what better way then to make my house extremly unpleasant? here he is, full of adrenaline and breathign hard, full of teenage testostorone, and suddenly he is engulfed in a cloud of gas, can't breath, he is coughing, crying, makby a little throwing up, and here is a screaming 280 pound guy popping him on the knee with a stick, what is he going to want to do at that point? stop to try to grab something? or get the [censored] out of my house? so, we will all, family included, be on the lawn coughing and cursing, but I will have acheived my goal. and, yes, there may be some damage to my furniture and carpets from the gas, but have you seen furniture and drywall after having a few rounds put through them, or a guy bleed out on them? as importantly, if my kid plays with the gas, it will hurt but not kill him. so I don't have to worry about leaving it very handy. I can have the front hall of my house in a cloud of gas 3 seconds after waking up at 3 am.

7. batons - yes, I practice with them. one of the advantages I feel to my plan is that I can easily do dry runs with it. I am pretty good with a stick, and feel very comfortable with it. I find, and again not to be insulting, that almost nobody is good at fireing a powerfull firearm in a modern american multi-story house. most people who have guns are better shots at paper than I am - I haven't fired a gun in 10 years. what I could do, back in the day, was work in a 3 directional fireing drill, including going up and down flights. even with that, I never had to fire in a drywall house. are you comfortable that you could fire up a flight of stairs, or down a flight of stairs, and that you are always aware of where your round will finish its path in your house?

8. having or not having a gun in the house - of course, this is a private choice. if I didn't have a 4 year old son, I would probrably have a single 9mm handgun in a touchpad safe. maybe 2, in diferent safes. with a son in the house, the cost/benifit doens't add up. I am not against guns, it is my opinion that they are less of a benifit in home security than people want to believe.

I agree. I don't mind if the subject is kept low key and the discussion is respectful. This is turning into a firearms ownership debate, along with who's background training is better. We are all on a level field here, and the intent is to learn from each other.

How about we discuss how we would handle the situation unarmed?

First rule for me would be to identify who is at my front door before I open it. Plus I have two trained attack cats as backup...

_________________________"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

I didn't mean to get into a discussion about whose background was better. I do find that when ever I mention that I believe the best tactical response to a home invation doesn't have to involve firearms, I get attacked as not knowing anything about firearms, or hating or being scared of firearms, so I usually mention my background.

I do not debate firearms ownership - I was attempting to raise the tactical pros and cons of firearm use for home defense. I believe that that is a valid argument.

Hmm, for starters how about this - Krav seems to hold a very "do what you can with what you have" philosophy at the core of it's techniques. Personally, I think above guns, dogs, bazookas, surface to jerkface rockets and happy mines, the best thing to condition is your alertness and adaptability to any SD situation. So look at it this way - the kids are in bed, the wife is reading with her iPod on, the lights downstairs are out, the guns and stuff are locked in the safe (or you don't have any) and the front door gets kicked in - now what? Me, I would look around quick for anything I can pick up to use as a blunt weapon, throw or spray (aerosols make great distractions and can injure eyes). If you can keep your head together, you could come out of your bathroom with a flame thrower faster than the lone ranger could unholster his six shooter. To me, that's what Krav training is more about. Sharpening your wits more than your knives. That's why it isn't a "weapon art" unless you're learning it at a military level.Of course, all this is borderline useless without a good 'ol family escape plan, which I'm surprised no one mentioned here. Keep in mind that if someone breaks into your house while you're there, chances are they are NOT afraid of you, they don't care if you're Task Force Ranger and you've killed 1500 people. Home invaders are there to take what they wnat and anyone who comes between is target practice.And if you're really cool, you'd break out your katana and go Kill Bill on 'em!

Globetrotter,didn't mean for our discussion to get out of hand. I'm not insulted. We just have differing perspectives on how this works. I'm sure if I was in Israel, I'd have a different perspective too.

Stay safe.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Haven't been following the discussion but would like to add something.

In Toronto, Canada it is the homes that have guns and the owners that advertise them to close that get their homes robbed. That's right the attackers break into the houses to steal the guns then commit other crimes. A little ironic but that's how it is here north of the border.

I agree with getting a good description of the attackers, but a cousin of mine survived a home invasion by covering his eyes, shouting "I do not want to see your faces" and then telling the invaders to take anything they want. Is this a better strategy?

For one, having your home invaded seems like a pretty rare event unless you live in the inner city of a major city... it could probably be equated to getting struck by lightning for most.

But I think it's common sense stuff though: keep your house locked, always check to see who's at the door and be up on your disarming techniques (which also means knowing how to fire a gun well). The argument here for me is that the closest defensive weapon to use is the attacker's.

Personally though, I don't think you can take any chances. If someone comes in your house with a gun, is it worth it to wait around and see if they'll shoot you or not? The best thing I think is to know your house and have a plan... beyond your training, your best advantage is that you know your house better than anyone else. I rather like the idea of drilling your own scenarios in your own house. Different agencies and militaries have mock environments that they build for training... I'd think if you're Secret Service or something it's not about entry training, but how to defend against an entry.

In addition, the element of surprise from your side is a huge advantage as well. Most of these people don't break into a house expecting someone who knows Krav Maga... and since these guys are very often "buddies," the other potentially armed guys might think twice about shooting in the direction of his buddy who is being disarmed. Drill using your newly disarmed attacker as a "shield" -- hold them up. Maybe it's wishful thinking; I don't know. But it could be a good diversion to point their gun/s away from your family so that you can discharge defensive shots if need be.

I usually stay away from these kinds of discussions, but I just can't resist adding this little bit of information...

In places like Canada and Norway, you see more guns per capita (or something like that) than in the US, but at least over here, the guns are more to protect (or use) against dodgy wildlife than people ;-)

Quote:For one, having your home invaded seems like a pretty rare event unless you live in the inner city of a major city... it could probably be equated to getting struck by lightning for most.

But I think it's common sense stuff though: keep your house locked, always check to see who's at the door and be up on your disarming techniques (which also means knowing how to fire a gun well). The argument here for me is that the closest defensive weapon to use is the attacker's.

Personally though, I don't think you can take any chances. If someone comes in your house with a gun, is it worth it to wait around and see if they'll shoot you or not? The best thing I think is to know your house and have a plan... beyond your training, your best advantage is that you know your house better than anyone else. I rather like the idea of drilling your own scenarios in your own house. Different agencies and militaries have mock environments that they build for training... I'd think if you're Secret Service or something it's not about entry training, but how to defend against an entry.

In addition, the element of surprise from your side is a huge advantage as well. Most of these people don't break into a house expecting someone who knows Krav Maga... and since these guys are very often "buddies," the other potentially armed guys might think twice about shooting in the direction of his buddy who is being disarmed. Drill using your newly disarmed attacker as a "shield" -- hold them up. Maybe it's wishful thinking; I don't know. But it could be a good diversion to point their gun/s away from your family so that you can discharge defensive shots if need be.

Just some thoughts...

Your assertion is incorrect my friend. Suburbs are way more likely to get hit by invaders because of the nature of these attacks. They want money, jewels, electronics, cars and such. These type of things are not found in inner city homes.

I live in a wonderful gated community in the suburbs. Far away from the inner city. I have guns all over my house and I never get in my car without my gun. I prefer my XD Springfield ACP .45 or the Glock 19c. I live in Nevada and carrying concealed is quite common here. Las Vegas is the most dangerous city in America. So I am a big believer in guns. I would agree though that having a gun is not a shield against "motivated" intruders but it does not hurt.

I suggest strategically placing weapons throughout your home. The kitchen is a great place for a gun! Bathrooms work too but you must always remember that if you have kids this is not a good practice.

Quote:Your assertion is incorrect my friend. Suburbs are way more likely to get hit by invaders because of the nature of these attacks. They want money, jewels, electronics, cars and such. These type of things are not found in inner city homes.

I guess that makes sense. I have kind of had an experience with that...

Actually, my best friend did. He lives in an affluent neighborhood and had some weirdo driving around his house all the time. This weirdo actually drove right up into his driveway in the middle of the night once. I think he/she was scoping my friend's house out (or rather his parents' house while they were out of town)... I was there one night when it happened. A bit scary. We actually bought toy guns in case we needed to at least give the appearance that we were armed! As a second hand story, my dad's wife had an intruder once while he was at work. The dude was right outside of the sliding glass door, so my stepmom grabbed their gun. When this guy saw it, he actually ran.

Anyway, as for the inner city threat, I've seen enough episodes of Cops to get the sense that break-ins occur quite a bit in that environment as well... often with the intruders coming in with guns. I'd think that a lot of this is gang-related more than anything.

Well, one good thing for martial artists to remember is that someone can run away from you, and still turn around and shoot you. Let's see you do that with martial arts...

If somebody's armed and more than three steps away, you better be making friends. You can brag all you want to, but guns vs. martial arts... the gun will win 99 times out of 100. In "guns vs. guns"... the most prepared person will win (if they're a good shot).

The best description was given by the gangster Al Capone. He said "you get more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word".

In all my years of martial arts training, I've never seen anybody that could block or catch a bullet, except in the movies. ... and home invaders aren't there to make friends.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Ok, one more word and then i have to get away from this thread My point has nothing to do with guns vs. martial arts. I could go on and on about cqc and skills and civilian training vs. military and a bunch of other crap that I just don't care about, because it's all the same rhetorical argument. My point was that this is a MARTIAL ARTS forum. There are plenty of other places you guys can tell stories about your big guns till you're blue in the face. This is a place for talking about MA and MA related stuff.I'm no stranger to guns. I used to have several and you know what? All I realized was that any idiot can pick one up and learn how to work it quick. They are uninteresting (in practice, not aesthetic) to me and I don't think they have any of the intellectual or physical properties of MA. So PLEASE, unless we're talking about a specific technique involving guns, make like you're at the saloon and check yer shootin irons at the door.Sheesh