As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

If I am allowed to suggest, a tangent thread keeping the evidence of my misspelling would do fine, since all interested will be able to keep the record on the progress in unveiling the secret if English is my second, third, or whatever language.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

If I am allowed to suggest, a tangent thread keeping the evidence of my misspelling would do fine, since all interested will be able to keep the record on the progress in unveiling the secret if English is my second, third, or whatever language.

Or, we can just allow the whole thing to die here, and move on. Which I would greatly perfer.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

The Patriarch has under his Omorphion all the Stavropegial Institutions

Hey George, it's "omophorion" - ὀμοφόριον- not "omorphion"

OOps, just seen the subsquent messages. But it is probably a good thing for George, being a Greek, to know the spelling of omophorion. That's not the same as somebody making a typo and writing "godo" for "good."

Father, if others haven't reminded you by now, the Ecumenical Patriarch is not part of SCOBA; Hence, His All Holiness is not subject to the restriction you cited.

His Exarch, Archbishop Demetrios, can wear the rasson and the pectoral cross at Interfaith services.

He can wear a bit more than that. He can wear his mandias - which is the colourful outer garment you see the Patriarch wearing in the photo from Saint Peter's.

Although it looks so colourful that people may mistake it for a liturgical vestment, it is simply the outer garment of all fully professed monks (the difference being that theirs is plain black and without the "Tables"). It can be worn on the street and it is worn in church whenever a hieromonk or bishop is NOT celebrating.

Although it looks so colourful that people may mistake it for a liturgical vestment, it is simply the outer garment of all fully professed monks (the difference being that theirs is plain black and without the "Tables"). It can be worn on the street and it is worn in church whenever a hieromonk or bishop is NOT celebrating.

Thank you for the info; However, I do not recall any GOA Bishop or Metropolitan wearing anything colorful in a non-Liturgical capacity.

Although it looks so colourful that people may mistake it for a liturgical vestment, it is simply the outer garment of all fully professed monks (the difference being that theirs is plain black and without the "Tables"). It can be worn on the street and it is worn in church whenever a hieromonk or bishop is NOT celebrating.

Thank you for the info; However, I do not recall any GOA Bishop or Metropolitan wearing anything colorful in a non-Liturgical capacity.

Must be a difference between the Churches. But are you sure you have not seen a greek bishop in his mandias? What about when he walks from his residence and enters the church building? Or when he is in the church but not celebrating?

Must be a difference between the Churches. But are you sure you have not seen a greek bishop in his mandias? What about when he walks from his residence and enters the church building? Or when he is in the church but not celebrating?

As we see in the photo, the Ec. Patriarch wears his mandias.

Father, I have never been to a Greek Bishop's residence. I have seen them exit Cadillacs.

I have never seen any Bishop in his mandias. Either the Hierarch wears black or the Hierarch is dressed in Liturgical Garb - no middle ground.

In 2004, when I attended the Patriarchal Liturgy in NJ, all Hierarchs wore Liturgical Garb. At the testimonial dinner (where I was thrown out by Security for not having a ticket, different story), all Hierarchs wore Black, although I do remember one or two Hierarchs wearing colorful mandias but they weren't from GOA.

Oh, I'd never get it back... Bunch of Greeks, hoarding their money... (lol)

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

Although it looks so colourful that people may mistake it for a liturgical vestment, it is simply the outer garment of all fully professed monks (the difference being that theirs is plain black and without the "Tables"). It can be worn on the street and it is worn in church whenever a hieromonk or bishop is NOT celebrating.

Thank you for the info; However, I do not recall any GOA Bishop or Metropolitan wearing anything colorful in a non-Liturgical capacity.

Must be a difference between the Churches. But are you sure you have not seen a greek bishop in his mandias? What about when he walks from his residence and enters the church building? Or when he is in the church but not celebrating?

As we see in the photo, the Ec. Patriarch wears his mandias.

Father, some context: many of the hierarchs in the US don't use the mandya/mandia. The Archbishop does when he goes to the theological school; but I've been with him at a parish and he didn't use it. It just depends on whether the hierarch is inclined to wear it, especially in a place where they may not be used to seeing it.

When they do use the mandya/mandia here, they are vested with it in the Narthex or in the sanctuary, not outside the Church.

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

Father, some context: many of the hierarchs in the US don't use the mandya/mandia. The Archbishop does when he goes to the theological school; but I've been with him at a parish and he didn't use it. It just depends on whether the hierarch is inclined to wear it, especially in a place where they may not be used to seeing it.

I have been told by an Antiochian bishop that they don't use it because its origin lies in monastic vesture and since their bishops have not been tonsured as monks it would not be appropriate to wear a monastic garment. Is this the same for Greek bishops in the States? Have they lived as monks or are they, like the Antiochians, celibate or widowed parish priests who have been advanced to the episcopate?

Father, some context: many of the hierarchs in the US don't use the mandya/mandia. The Archbishop does when he goes to the theological school; but I've been with him at a parish and he didn't use it. It just depends on whether the hierarch is inclined to wear it, especially in a place where they may not be used to seeing it.

I have been told by an Antiochian bishop that they don't use it because its origin lies in monastic vesture and since their bishops have not been tonsured as monks it would not be appropriate to wear a monastic garment. Is this the same for Greek bishops in the States? Have they lived as monks or are they, like the Antiochians, celibate or widowed parish priests who have been advanced to the episcopate?

Some of both. A few of our bishops have actually been monks in a monastery (in fact, Metropolitan +ALEXIOS was an Abbot, IIRC); a few others were tonsured but served parishes. We've had 2 or 3 hierarchs in the last 20 or so years who were widowers. I personally think they don't wear them because (a) people aren't used to seeing them, (b) there may not be enough people who know how to help vest the bishop in it, and then how to fold it once done (which is a pain and a half), (c) they didn't want to buy one with the Metropolis' money, only to use it infrequently. I don't know any reason for sure.

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

I see your confusion about the subject matter of chemistry. It teaches the formulae and inter-action between elements.

Formula of water is always H2O, except with the "heavy" water, used in nuclear experiments, where after the process it reaches H30, regardless its aggregate state.

Frozen and gaseuous states are subject matter of what are called physics, while you probably call it "science".

In the last physics class I took, we spent more time discussing chaos theory than state-changes; you'll have to pardon me if I believe that properties of compounds in various states should be covered in chemistry, not defiling the great books and lectures of mighty physics.

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

Father, I'm a bit confused... I don't think I've ever seen this written out in Greek or English except here on OC.net; not even when I went to the Patriarchate did I hear anyone use this title.

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

Father, I'm a bit confused... I don't think I've ever seen this written out in Greek or English except here on OC.net; not even when I went to the Patriarchate did I hear anyone use this title.

Cleveland, I apologise.

His correct title is "His Most Divine All-Holiness. I always forget the "Most." Forgive me.

Father, I'm not attempting to be argumentative, "snarky," sarcastic, etc. I'm being quite serious - I've never heard the title before, nor seen it in writing, either here in the US, or at the Patriarchate itself. I am indeed a bit confused, and I'm asking you, only because you seem to know about it.

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

Father, I'm a bit confused... I don't think I've ever seen this written out in Greek or English except here on OC.net; not even when I went to the Patriarchate did I hear anyone use this title.

Cleveland, I apologise.

His correct title is "His Most Divine All-Holiness. I always forget the "Most." Forgive me.

Father, I'm not attempting to be argumentative, "snarky," sarcastic, etc. I'm being quite serious - I've never heard the title before, nor seen it in writing, either here in the US, or at the Patriarchate itself. I am indeed a bit confused, and I'm asking you, only because you seem to know about it.

I'm wondering if he heard an accolade in church slavonice, because there are some that are regularly used for metropolitans and patriarchs that translate to "most divine"....just a thought.

His correct title is "His Most Divine All-Holiness. I always forget the "Most." Forgive me.

Father, I'm not attempting to be argumentative, "snarky," sarcastic, etc. I'm being quite serious - I've never heard the title before, nor seen it in writing, either here in the US, or at the Patriarchate itself. I am indeed a bit confused, and I'm asking you, only because you seem to know about it.

No, I realise that you are not.

Maybe go to the site of the Ecumenical Patriarchate on the Net? Or have a look at the way he is addressed in letters written in Greek.

My Greek is horrendous.... but I think/guess that it is something like

"Αὐτοῦ Θειοτάτη Παναγιότης"

Phew, took me several minutes to type that on my keyboard - it is fluent in English and Cyrillic..but it has trouble with Greek and I probably have the case endings wrong too. Sorry.

Maybe George could help? When I used the title before he said it was correct but it is avoided in English....

[I'm wondering if he heard an accolade in church slavonice, because there are some that are regularly used for metropolitans and patriarchs that translate to "most divine"....just a thought.

Never heard anything like that in Slavonic, I must admit.

It would probably be something like "Preobozhestvenniy" or "Bozhestvenneyshiy" but both terms are awful !!!

I have to ask my father, but there is a metropolitan whose deacon goes through literally 12 different accolades to the bishop. I have heard them for the patriarch too, but it was a while ago. If I remember or get around to it i'll make sure to write them all down.

But the willingness to ask and learn, that you started to feature on this thread recently, reminds me that there is always hope, no matter if I forget that somethimes.

I'm glad that you have condescended to decree that I have hope; now I may depart in peace.

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

By the way, since you've pardoned my "ignorance," maybe we can have a discussion on fluid and solid mechanics, since you seem so interested; yes, GreekisChristian would probably think that our discussion of mere Newtonian Physics is a waste of time, but you obviously are so interested in it that you've determined that it also encompasses something so trivial as the "wetness" of water.

I mean, it's not like your assertion that the "wetness" of water in its various forms is Physics is supported by anyone else; heck, your assertion flies in the face of even the most elementary definitions of Chemistry; to wit:

1. The science of the composition, structure, properties, and reactions of matter, especially of atomic and molecular systems. 2. The composition, structure, properties, and reactions of a substance. 3. The elements of a complex entity and their dynamic interrelation: "Now that they had a leader, a restless chemistry possessed the group" (John Updike). 4. Mutual attraction or sympathy; rapport: The chemistry was good between the partners.

1. That branch of science which treats of the composition of substances, and of the changes which they undergo in consequence of alterations in the constitution of the molecules, which depend upon variations of the number, kind, or mode of arrangement, of the constituent atoms. These atoms are not assumed to be indivisible, but merely the finest grade of subdivision hitherto attained. Chemistry deals with the changes in the composition and constitution of molecules. See Atom, Molecule.

Note: Historically, chemistry is an outgrowth of alchemy (or alchemistry), with which it was anciently identified.

2. An application of chemical theory and method to the consideration of some particular subject; as, the chemistry of iron; the chemistry of indigo.

3. A treatise on chemistry.

Note: This word and its derivatives were formerly written with y, and sometimes with i, instead of e, in the first syllable, chymistry, chymist, chymical, etc., or chimistry, chimist, chimical, etc.; and the pronunciation was conformed to the orthography.

Inorganic chemistry, that which treats of inorganic or mineral substances.

Organic chemistry, that which treats of the substances which form the structure of organized beings and their products, whether animal or vegetable; -- called also chemistry of the carbon compounds. There is no fundamental difference between organic and inorganic chemistry.

Physiological chemistry, the chemistry of the organs and tissues of the body, and of the various physiological processes incident to life.

Practical chemistry, or Applied chemistry, that which treats of the modes of manufacturing the products of chemistry that are useful in the arts, of their applications to economical purposes, and of the conditions essential to their best use.

What is worse is that you teach your ignorance to others, in the belief that it is actually the truth. Self-confident pose you take during that makes you look laughable.

Your words seem ironic, now don't they?

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

Formula of water is always H2O, except with the "heavy" water, used in nuclear experiments, where after the process it reaches H30, regardless its aggregate state.

Are you sure of this? To my knowledge, heavy water and even tritiated water still have the same molecular formula: H2O, though you'll often see heavy water shown as D2O and tritiated water as T2O. However, I don't think you'll ever see it as H3O, as you claim.

In essence, the number of atoms in the molecule of water never change--you'll always have two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. What is different is the isotope(s) of the hydrogen atom(s) contained in the water molecule. ALMOST all hydrogen atoms contain only the one proton with no neutrons, but nature provides us that one rogue hydrogen atom out of so many thousand that also possesses a neutron. We call this form of hydrogen deuterium, the hydrogen isotope seen in heavy water (D2O) or semi-heavy water (HDO). Add another neutron to the nucleus of the deuterium atom and you get a radioactive hydrogen isotope known as tritium, which is most often one of the byproducts of nuclear experiments (or nuclear energy production), but can be found in nature in trace amounts.

Again, however, a water molecule will always have the molecular formula of H2O, otherwise it wouldn't be water at all. This is true regardless of the hydrogen isotopes contained in the water molecule.

I mean, it's not like your assertion that the "wetness" of water in its various forms is Physics is supported by anyone else; heck, your assertion flies in the face of even the most elementary definitions of Chemistry; to wit:

Quote from: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chemistry

Your words seem ironic, now don't they?

Poor kid.

You could have checked the subject matter at least at wikipedia, and not in dictionaries. If they lectured chemistry to you from dictionaries, you might try to base your claim on fraud.

You know, for chemistry, ice and water are the same. They have the same formula = H20. They have the same chemical properties. It's written even in the dictionaries you quoted, but one needs to know to read it.

By the way, since you've pardoned my "ignorance," maybe we can have a discussion on fluid and solid mechanics, since you seem so interested; yes, GreekisChristian would probably think that our discussion of mere Newtonian Physics is a waste of time, but you obviously are so interested in it that you've determined that it also encompasses something so trivial as the "wetness" of water.

Has GiC already became a new "Old Calendarist whose jurisdiction is more conservative even than ROCOR?"

Your pose of self-confidence shows the tendency of crumbling when you are so alone, while the opponent seems growing huge, so you become so welcome for an outside support that you suddenly proclaim authoritative?

« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 02:26:39 PM by orthodoxlurker »

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

You could have checked the subject matter at least at wikipedia, and not in dictionaries. If they lectured chemistry to you from dictionaries, you might try to base your claim on fraud.

Now that you want to talk about irony, you know what's really ironic? The fact that I got most of the information I used to refute your misunderstanding of heavy water from wikipedia.

BTW, H3O is really hydronium, the result of bombarding water with free protons. Hydronium is also known to be the most acidic compound soluble in water; a stronger acid would simply turn water into hydronium.

Formula of water is always H2O, except with the "heavy" water, used in nuclear experiments, where after the process it reaches H30, regardless its aggregate state.

Are you sure of this? To my knowledge, heavy water and even tritiated water still have the same molecular formula: H2O, though you'll often see heavy water shown as D2O and tritiated water as T2O. However, I don't think you'll ever see it as H3O, as you claim.

In essence, the number of atoms in the molecule of water never change--you'll always have two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. What is different is the isotope(s) of the hydrogen atom(s) contained in the water molecule. ALMOST all hydrogen atoms contain only the one proton with no neutrons, but nature provides us that one rogue hydrogen atom out of so many thousand that also possesses a neutron. We call this form of hydrogen deuterium, the hydrogen isotope seen in heavy water (D2O) or semi-heavy water (HDO). Add another neutron to the nucleus of the deuterium atom and you get a radioactive hydrogen isotope known as tritium, which is most often one of the byproducts of nuclear experiments (or nuclear energy production), but can be found in nature in trace amounts.

Again, however, a water molecule will always have the molecular formula of H2O, otherwise it wouldn't be water at all. This is true regardless of the hydrogen isotopes contained in the water molecule.

For the record, the complain quoted above is pretty accurate, apart from different symbols to mark "enriched" hydrogen sometimes used in various part of the World. Since Hydrogen is always one-valence (sp?), while Oxygen is two-valence H20 marks water.

Yet, an unstable form of Oxygen known as Ozone is referred O3 and unstable short-living H3(O3)2 are possible with "common" Hydrogen. The same goes for "enriched" Hydrogen.

However, as I said, "broken" "teared" atoms of Hydrogen in nuclear experiments can take various short-living forms, including mentioned H30, but that's not the subject matter for chemistry, since there is actually no molecule of it, than something that is theoretically marked as a temporary product.

Though, I'm puzzled why is that addressed to me, when in fact proves my point that Cleveland has second-thoughts to accept.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

Though, I'm puzzled why is that addressed to me, when in fact proves my point that Cleveland has second-thoughts to accept.

To refute your identification of H3O (hydronium) with heavy water (D2O).

I am embarrassed for the stupidity of this guy.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to warn you for making an ad hominem attack on another user. Your warning will stand for 40 days. If you feel this warning is in error, please PM FrChris or Fr. Anastasios to appeal it.

With this, I will cease my participation in this thread to avoid conflict of interest.

- Cleveland, Global Moderator

You are being placed on post moderation for offensive and innapropriate posting, specifically, swearing, sexual references, ad hominems, and unprovoked false and offensive insinuations against posters.

If you wish to dispute this moderation, please pm Fr. Chris.

- Cleveland, Global Moderator

« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 06:07:34 PM by cleveland »

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator