Quote from a recent Coast To Coast AM radio interview with an architecture historian regarding planned Middle East cities: "This place is going to make Dubai look like Cleveland!"

I was wondering now long it would take someone to post that. Now that we've established there is an exodus from Cuyahoga County via planes, cars and Conestoga wagon trains might we please return to topics such as the fate of Concourse D and the faint promise of transatlantic air service returning to Cleveland?

I think that's the big reason CLE is smaller than the population would seem to demand. Between the airlines and the government, short-haul flying has just about been killed. Driving up to five or six hours is extremely competitive with flying. It wasn't that long ago that CLE-YIP (the old Detroit airport) was 100K pax a year

It wasn't that long ago that CLE-YIP (the old Detroit airport) was 100K pax a year

On second thought, it was a long time ago; I forget how old i am. Anyway, before the advent of things like the TSA, interstate highways, flight speed reductions, endless boarding processes,etc., PIT, CVG, DAY, and DTW were significant CLE air markets.

It wasn't that long ago that CLE-YIP (the old Detroit airport) was 100K pax a year

On second thought, it was a long time ago; I forget how old i am. Anyway, before the advent of things like the TSA, interstate highways, flight speed reductions, endless boarding processes,etc., PIT, CVG, DAY, and DTW were significant CLE air markets.

The Ultimate deal is really amazing because it's only a 4 hr ride making it marginally better to fly vs. drive compared to a CHI or NYC. But when you look at their setup, it's so quick and efficient at the airport, like the good old days, that it is driving demand.

Baggage systems, or any sorting system, are a tricky devil to integrate and work out the bugs. After 6 months, it's not acceptable for the CLE vendor to not have this fully operational. There have been some major failures however (IIRC AKL, DEN) Regarding the extra PAX, that is just a line of xxxx in my mind. I'm sure it was build for a hub structure with large banks. If you look at CLE now, the volume is a lot more spread out. If CLE want to get good scores on any surveys, it won't happen if you are waiting 45 min for your bags (actual case in early March on UA from DEN).

The Downtown Cleveland Alliance has issued its 2017 Annual Report and reports that useless (in many people's minds) Burke Lakefront Airport had 38,605 flights and 178,521 passengers for the year. A finer grain of data would be nice; I wonder what % of the passengers were sports charters. Lots of other good numbers for Cleveland fans as well.

My house was under the climb-out pattern for west-bound planes and I'd rush outdoors to see the UA 747 (UA953) and various DC-10s fly over. That sound of their engines is still music to my ears.

Ah yes, UAL953 was the morning departure to ORD and HNL. I lived on the other side of the airport and would catch its arrival the night before as UAL218 from LAS and ORD. Do you remember UAL576? 747 service to MIA was back then too.

Yes, UA595/UA576 were a 747 operating CLE-MIA-CLE. One season EA operated an L1011 DTW-CLE-MIA and return. UA also operated DC10's to/from TPA and to/from SFO. Those were the days! (My "Good Old Days.")

I had forgotten that the inbound 747 was LAS-ORD-CLE for a while. I remember it also operating ITO (or was it HNL?)-LAX-ORD-CLE as UA118.

UA operated DC-10s to a lot of places from CLE. Several Florida markets in winter, sometimes 4x daily to ORD (along with a couple from NW), and ATL. DEN, SFO, LAX and SEA all stopped at ORD. I recall ITO being a DC-8 that did BWI-CLE-ORD-LAX-ITO. Flight 187 I think. Good ole days.

^Note that if you include Akron and Canton into the Cleveland MSA--which would make it comparable to the "Chicago" and New York" MSA".

Did you seriously type that?

I was referring to the spread of geography. If NYC includes parts of PA, then certainly CLE should include Canton. To get from NYC to Penna you must include lots and lots of rural Jersey. The Cleveland-Akron-Canton area is mostly suburban--not even rural---but a lot of NJ is rural.

^Note that if you include Akron and Canton into the Cleveland MSA--which would make it comparable to the "Chicago" and New York" MSA".

Did you seriously type that?

I was referring to the spread of geography. If NYC includes parts of PA, then certainly CLE should include Canton. To get from NYC to Penna you must include lots and lots of rural Jersey. The Cleveland-Akron-Canton area is mostly suburban--not even rural---but a lot of NJ is rural.

Nothing you say ever makes any sense. This whole thread is like a feedback loop of the same 4 out-of-touch people waxing fantastic about flights to Dubai, diamond-in-the-rough megahub potential, and now apparently Cleveland equalling NYC via some vague, distorted, irrelevent metric.

I had hopes that AA might go beyond that. The last time UA withdrew, AA built a nice little hub. However, at the JP Morgan conference last week, CEO Parker plainly said AA wasn't interested in any P2P routes; hubs only - and no new hubs.

I was referring to the spread of geography. If NYC includes parts of PA, then certainly CLE should include Canton. To get from NYC to Penna you must include lots and lots of rural Jersey. The Cleveland-Akron-Canton area is mostly suburban--not even rural---but a lot of NJ is rural.

Nothing you say ever makes any sense. This whole thread is like a feedback loop of the same 4 out-of-touch people waxing fantastic about flights to Dubai, diamond-in-the-rough megahub potential, and now apparently Cleveland equalling NYC via some vague, distorted, irrelevent metric.

N766UA--Dude, chill. Look at posts #393 and 394. I was comparing metropolitan growth (GDP). the "Cleveland" number comprises only five counties around Cleveland and excludes Cleveland suburbs that are in Summit and Portage Counties while the "New York City" number includes rural New Jersey and parts of Pennsylvania. So to make "Cleveland" comparable to "New York" I said, we should throw the Akron MSA and Canton MSA numbers into Cleveland's and then look at the growth rate of Cleveland-Akron-Canton and Compare that to NYC-which-includes-Jersey-and parts of Pennsylvania. No one said that Cleveland and NY were peers or the same size. It was a comparison of GROWTH RATES. And it was a valid point as the growth of economies---and the rate of growth relative to other places--is a consideration airlines use when determining where to start new routes.

Any one think that Aer Lingus could announce a new route from CLE-DUB with the A321? maybe it will be the new TATL flight the Kennedy has been talking about?

That would be awesome ! Then all the descendants from Mayo would have a way back home ! On a another note was looking at a possible trip in December on Icelandair and it was showing back to the 752 and showing less that 5 seats available!

Any one think that Aer Lingus could announce a new route from CLE-DUB with the A321? maybe it will be the new TATL flight the Kennedy has been talking about?

That would be awesome ! Then all the descendants from Mayo would have a way back home ! On a another note was looking at a possible trip in December on Icelandair and it was showing back to the 752 and showing less that 5 seats available!

... might we please return to topics such as the fate of Concourse D and the faint promise of transatlantic air service returning to Cleveland?

...doesn't look like it.......and my city's bigger than yours.

An old adage states that any publicity is good publicity. And few cities through the decades have evoked more titters and groans than our town. Sample: A 1950s inter-planetary science fiction movie starring a Disneyland TWA Moonliner spaceship commander and his rag-tag crew. After suffering an alarming attrition rate mostly through inept battlefield tactics with aliens- "Kowalski, you look for the creature in that cave. The rest of us will look for it out here."- they improbably stumble upon the mid-century equivalent of SI Swimsuit models. In an endearing moment, one of them gazes into the eyes of the spaceship commander and breathlessly urges him to "please, tell me about this Earth place Cleveland."

The relatively short CLE-JFK route has heated-up thanks to American Airlines' Envoy upguaging to the ERJ-175 on some flights. Delta Air Lines in-turn has responded with their Endeavor affiliate now using the Bombarier CRJ-900 with four rows of business class seats. For somewhat taller passengers like myself who are fortunate enough to book business seats on the A side, this is a quantum leap in air travel over the CRJ-200. I wouldn't be all that surprised to see a jetBlue ERJ-190 flying that city pair in the future.

You must not have tried other cities. It’s greyed out for most North American cities, even some big ones like Dtw and DFW. I wouldn’t read too much in to it—- yet. Boston and Chicago show a November schedule. So does BWI.

Has WOW's service to KEF been revised to seasonal? I can't book a flight past October 25. Not too surprised if this is the case. This may be how both WOW and Icelandair can co-exist in CLE.

I also looked for a December trip and they showed a “ no availabe flights” ! Maybe they discontinued they’re service !

No they haven't extended the schedule yet, besides, CLE has the poorest bookings out of the 4 Midwest markets that were added. STL was the strongest with CVG shortly after, DTW in a distant 3rd and CLE behind DTW.

Up here in Iceland, WOW air has become a bit notorious for being tight-lipped about the specifics of their business. The only information they are required by law to make public is the company annual statement, but only like 8-9 months into the following year and those statements are just very basic accounts of how the company on the whole is doing. They would never publicize their performance on individual routes. They are all doing excellently, until they aren't.

When they added a frequency to CVG, the article about it said that STL was the only one of the 4 outselling CVG. Based on that, I would think the info from flymco is probably correct. That only leaves DTW and CLE and I think it is likely that DTW would be outselling CLE just based on supply/demand (DTW bigger market, CLE having 2 Iceland flights)

Does your friend know how icelandair is doing? This is the one I hope sticks, if I could only pick one.

Oh Icelandair is definitely sticking out of the two, they have already upgraded to the 757 for the winter flights and I heard that the 757's are booking up really quick!

I would be cautious looking too much into a/c changes or seat maps 9-11 months in advance. Airlines often block large sections of the plane off on their websites, and outside 3-5 months most schedules are place holders.

Although it does make sense that FI might use the 757 rather than the Max during the winter, due to the headwinds in the Atlantic during that time. Other than that it wouldn't make sense for FI to upguage during the weakest time of the year for TATL travel, given we are 3/4th of a year in advance and basically no one is booking flights for next Jan/Feb at this time.

When they added a frequency to CVG, the article about it said that STL was the only one of the 4 outselling CVG. Based on that, I would think the info from flymco is probably correct. That only leaves DTW and CLE and I think it is likely that DTW would be outselling CLE just based on supply/demand (DTW bigger market, CLE having 2 Iceland flights)

This is STL's first TATL and one of CVG's only, so it's a big deal for the two airports. The thing with DTW probably lies with brand recognition, they need time to develop because all people know are Delta goes everywhere, and now there's a new option for them. CLE, as stated, has 2 Iceland flights and they made a bigger deal about Icelandair than WOW, and I think people are doing their homework about the perks/disadvantages with both carriers. I think they would've cut it by now if it was performing very poorly.

OTOH, I don't think CLE would keep WOW if Aer Lingus started CLE, and that would more than likely kill BA's chances at CLE, simply because Icelandair has a good foot on the Cleveland market now.

OTOH, I don't think CLE would keep WOW if Aer Lingus started CLE, and that would more than likely kill BA's chances at CLE, simply because Icelandair has a good foot on the Cleveland market now.

In that British and Aer Lingus are both IAG, wouldn't they coordinate their planning in the case of a route like CLE?

The best thing about IcelandAir to me is Saga Class, which generally seems like a better deal than premium economy in terms of seating and price. I think they'll see good business from CLE-area corporate customers. It's not lie-flat, but it's much better than Y.

OTOH, I don't think CLE would keep WOW if Aer Lingus started CLE, and that would more than likely kill BA's chances at CLE, simply because Icelandair has a good foot on the Cleveland market now.

In that British and Aer Lingus are both IAG, wouldn't they coordinate their planning in the case of a route like CLE?

The best thing about IcelandAir to me is Saga Class, which generally seems like a better deal than premium economy in terms of seating and price. I think they'll see good business from CLE-area corporate customers. It's not lie-flat, but it's much better than Y.

Well regarding the IAG, at least in normal situations, if BA starts CLE, it's more than likely that EI wouldn't happen for a while. However, CLE is more suited for an EI flight as opposed to a BA flight because of the easiness to connect to most important European destinations via Dublin.

When they added a frequency to CVG, the article about it said that STL was the only one of the 4 outselling CVG. Based on that, I would think the info from flymco is probably correct. That only leaves DTW and CLE and I think it is likely that DTW would be outselling CLE just based on supply/demand (DTW bigger market, CLE having 2 Iceland flights)

Care to source the article? And why would it make his original statement about CLE "correct"? Again, I loooove A.net! I want to believe!

It's almost April and neither WW and FI have budged despite the a.net groupthink that it would be a bloodbath. Go figure.

When they added a frequency to CVG, the article about it said that STL was the only one of the 4 outselling CVG. Based on that, I would think the info from flymco is probably correct. That only leaves DTW and CLE and I think it is likely that DTW would be outselling CLE just based on supply/demand (DTW bigger market, CLE having 2 Iceland flights)

Care to source the article? And why would it make his original statement about CLE "correct"? Again, I loooove A.net! I want to believe!

It's almost April and neither WW and FI have budged despite the a.net groupthink that it would be a bloodbath. Go figure.

Up here in Iceland, WOW air has become a bit notorious for being tight-lipped about the specifics of their business. The only information they are required by law to make public is the company annual statement, but only like 8-9 months into the following year and those statements are just very basic accounts of how the company on the whole is doing. They would never publicize their performance on individual routes. They are all doing excellently, until they aren't.