If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Hi Unregistered,
We'll be undergoing major forum changes in the very near future. Be sure to check out the details here

Are you joking, Adamant? I don't think kids who are the target audience who just started watching give a damn either way.

This argument sounds awfully familiar to the people who claimed why Brock came back over Tracey, even though Brock was always planned to return. Hell it was an argument Misty fans used in AG because they saw her getting specials and assumed the writers were keeping her character alive for when Hoenn ended. Seriously it's bad enough the staff at #pm is so bias with their obsessions for older characters, are they rubbing off on you Adamant? JDS the fool makes photoshops bashing Cilan and May because he's an insane original trio fanboy and Sunain isn't much better.

It's no worse than your crackpot theories of may staying for Sinnoh and Dawn being some extended COTD only used for Team galactic and Dialga/Palkia.

I think this really was TR's finale. Why would they hype it up to be TR's final mission if it wasn't? If they wanted to get people excited, they could have stated that Giovanni will see Ash face to face. I do think they will make appearances in the future like any past character would but I think TRio is off the main cast now.

Sonic died and he has a replacement a long time ago. (cries in the corner.)

That's the stupidest comment I ever heard about Sonic "Isn't good Anymore"

Well we can't just let Giovonni and Dr, Zager get away with this! I mean What was the major purpose of Dr. Zager stealing Dream Data, Fossil data from the Archen Episode, and the Chargestone Rocks? It has to be part of Zager's and Team Rocket's ultimate Part of they're plan. They might of got all the ingredients found in Unova which they said they are done on Unova but not on the World Domination so they'll take over Unova later when their finish on something. There could be missing ingredients with Zager's plan that weren't found in Unova and I think the whole Carracosta thing was just a test and they want to see if they could accomplish the Time Gate plot but failed so they went to try the Abyssal Ruin plot but failed, now there isn't anything else to do in Unova and they got all the necessary ingredients found in Unova. So Dr Zager is going to let the TRio work for him for a few missions somewhere in or near Kanto to finish finding the ingredients that they couldn't find in Unova.
What I'm trying to say I think Dr Zager maybe involved with Genesect and he used to be a Team Plasma scientist and was planing to create Genesect, but N fired him and took away all the ingredients to create the most Powerful Fossil Pokémon ever. Dr Zager was then enraged that he moved in with Team Rocket and wanted to get the ingredients back from scratch.
So I think the real final battle with Team Rocket will be a Movie since the writers think Mewtwo should be the one to kill Giovonni and all the Rocket Grunts, and I they may think that it would be more awesome for Mewtwo to battle Genesect on screen.

That's the stupidest comment I ever heard about Sonic "Isn't good Anymore"

Well we can't just let Giovonni and Dr, Zager get away with this! I mean What was the major purpose of Dr. Zager stealing Dream Data, Fossil data from the Archen Episode, and the Chargestone Rocks? It has to be part of Zager's and Team Rocket's ultimate Part of they're plan. They might of got all the ingredients found in Unova which they said they are done on Unova but not on the World Domination so they'll take over Unova later when their finish on something. There could be missing ingredients with Zager's plan that weren't found in Unova and I think the whole Carracosta thing was just a test and they want to see if they could accomplish the Time Gate plot but failed so they went to try the Abyssal Ruin plot but failed, now there isn't anything else to do in Unova and they got all the necessary ingredients found in Unova. So Dr Zager is going to let the TRio work for him for a few missions somewhere in or near Kanto to finish finding the ingredients that they couldn't find in Unova.

Dream data, Fossil/Archen data, and the Chargestone Cave rocks were all for the Twist Mountain project as stated in "A Restoration Confrontation (Part 1)" and "A Restoration Confrontation (Part 2)".

Key word there: personality traits. In AG and DP, these traits stopped being traits and became their whole personalities.

I'd call that " Character Development ".

Team Rocket (as individuals and as an organization) are one of the most developed concepts in the entire series. We know a great deal about Jessie, James, and Meowth's past and how it's shaped them to be the characters they are today. There were protagonists that we knew less about then these three villains. We also know a great deal about how Team Rocket as an organization works thanks to interactions with with fellow Rockets and their superior Giovanni.

I have a theory about why the writers devoted that much time and energy fleshing out characters who were supposed to be villains. Simply put, we as an aduience were supposed to feel sorry for them and support them in their ill guided endeavors. It's easy to want the worse for villains that you don't know much about. When you dive into who they are as characters and why they possibly went down the wrong path it can make you view them sympathetically.

Compare the TRio to Hunter J for a second. Hunter J (apparently) died in a violent fiery explosion at the height of an arch. Yeah it was overkill and pretty dramatic for Pokemon, but she was a cruel villain who pushed even someone as kind hearted as Ash to his limits. Since we don't know much about her motives her death seemed fitting.

Then we had the possibility of the TRio dying for Project Tempest. If that really was the end-end for them and they died it would've had a bigger impact because we knew these characters. Really knew them. Their ups and downs. Their reasons for turning to evil. The fully monty. It won't have been a group of characters just getting what they deserved. It would've been a tragedy.

No longer were the TRio unpredictable or have any real depth to them: they did the same things over and over again, reacted the same way to every situation, and beat us over the head with the same jokes and same style of failure.

You say that like this isn't a kid's show. Repetition is King.

For the same reason Ash pulls out his Pokedex to scan Pokemon he's seen before. For the same reason they feel it nessasary to " remind " our characters where the next Gym is. For the same reason they fell the need to tell us the effects of certain moves in battle despite the majority of us having played at least one game before. That Ash would run immediately to the Gym wholly unprepared when he gets into town or start chucking Pokeballs at Unova Pokemon despite knowing that clearly does not work. That Brock must flirt with women. That Misty/Max/Croagunk must stop him.

I can literally go on all day, but I assure you that it's not just them who are repetitive. They do it because small childern comprehend better when you repeat the information in succession. It's a technique used in everything from Dora the Explorer to Pretty Cure.

First off, what villainy?

Stealing Pokemon is villainous regardless of their Success Rate.

Intent is enough to get you booked on many crimes in the Real World, you know.

Dream data, Fossil/Archen data, and the Chargestone Cave rocks were all for the Twist Mountain project as stated in "A Restoration Confrontation (Part 1)" and "A Restoration Confrontation (Part 2)".

No, the dream data was collected and used for the Meteonite mission. There was just some left over that was also used for the Twist Mountain one.

Originally Posted by Dephender

Everything just points towards the fact that a sizable majority preferred their old selves and wanted them back. Dropping an unpopular change of pace in a show's direction isn't pandering, it's just realizing that not every change is received well. For a show to be popular, it needs to be written in ways the audience responds positively to.

That "sizable majority" seems to be made up mostly of long-time viewers who don't want change. I'm pretty sure the anime staff has made clear long ago they don't really give a damn about long-time viewers and just want to focus on new generations of kids. If serious TR was really supposed to be a permanent change for them (rather than a change for them before they get written out of the show, as I think it is), then why revert them back just because of long-time viewer complaints? They could just keep them serious and the new kid audiences growing up would come to know and associate TR by their serious attitude. Old viewers who don't like the change could then have the radio show to entertain them instead.

That's why I believe they will, even if gradually, revert back to the way they used to be - the writers realized the "serious mode Rocket trio" was a failed experiment.

Yeah, that's exactly what people like you said when BW025 aired and it looked like they were going back to the way they were: "The writers realized that serious TR is a failed experiment and are correcting it". I'm sorry, but I think you're only saying that because you don't like serious TR and want to think it was a failed experiment. It's far more likely that serious TR was made specifically because BW was planned to be their final saga. The writers want them written out completely, and that's what has been happening. It was never going to be their new status quo; it happened because TR was leaving, so why not leave with a saga where they achieve what they'd always wanted and are the Boss' number 1 agents?

Originally Posted by fer92

I'm going to remember that Team Rocket as a organization needs to be serious, but not the TRio like in BW.

Two problems. One: the TRio is in that organizaiton, and if they go around calling themselves "Team Rocket" while being silly, they make the whole organizaiton look silly.

Two: the organization barely got ANY focus while the TRio were in silly mode, as Giovanni kept them it as far away from them and, by proxy, Ash and his friends as possible.

Originally Posted by An00bis

I'd call that " Character Development ".

Really? Because there's another term that describes it alot better: Flanderization. Which is not the same as Character Development at all.

We know a great deal about Jessie, James, and Meowth's past and how it's shaped them to be the characters they are today.

We did, but then that past became completely muddled and contradictory because the writers couldn't keep it straight, from their Housou "origin" special and onward.

I have a theory about why the writers devoted that much time and energy fleshing out characters who were supposed to be villains. Simply put, we as an aduience were supposed to feel sorry for them and support them in their ill guided endeavors. It's easy to want the worse for villains that you don't know much about. When you dive into who they are as characters and why they possibly went down the wrong path it can make you view them sympathetically.

And yet, when they actually succeed in those endeavors as they have in BW, you suddenly don't support them anymore. Funny that.

I guess you want them to keep failing so that they'd stay "sympathetic", but I don't invest my time and emotions on false hope (which is why I don't give a damn about Ash's goal.)

It won't have been a group of characters just getting what they deserved. It would've been a tragedy.

I never argued otherwise, and I never thought there was a chance they'd get killed either. Giovanni perhaps (though he didn't), but never the TRio.

For the same reason Ash pulls out his Pokedex to scan Pokemon he's seen before. For the same reason they feel it nessasary to " remind " our characters where the next Gym is. For the same reason they fell the need to tell us the effects of certain moves in battle despite the majority of us having played at least one game before. That Ash would run immediately to the Gym wholly unprepared when he gets into town or start chucking Pokeballs at Unova Pokemon despite knowing that clearly does not work. That Brock must flirt with women. That Misty/Max/Croagunk must stop him.

None of which happened in the days of Kanto and Orange Islands. It was a kids' show without being repetitive like that, and the TRio likewise were not repetitive. The original head writer and creator of the TRio, Takeshi Shudo, was actually a strong believer in not treating a kid audience like morons, and he wanted Pokemon to be "a family anime", not just for kids, and he quit because it became a kids' show with a fixed pattern nonetheless, and the TRio had become simple characters who (in his own words) "existed just to get beat up."

The seiyuu don't like serious Team Rocket. And possibly the writers aren't anymore. The problem is the TRio isn't create to be serious in the first place. But in BW1 they revamped completely their personality. The problem is that the writers (forced by the games) need to differenciate BW as much as possible and they hope that the series will be to new members. But many of the early-BW viewers are the same than late-DP series viewers. I'm going to remember that Team Rocket as a organization needs to be serious, but not the TRio like in BW.

Basically if you think about that if a character will return to the show is the original TRio (the funny version). I don't exist that any other past character will return at the show (Unless Ash is illuminated by some beautiful "light" with bubbles).

They were funny for like 20 episodes. And since when do the voice actors have a say in what happens with their characters??

Proud claimer of Cyndaquil and Ezio Auditore from Assassin's Creed !!
Also proud claimer of Assassin's Creed 2 the game!!
Just became the proud claimer of the Marvel's Agent's of S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show ^_^!!!

Remeber back in the DP days when misty's voice actor said she was returning to the show and the rage that happened when she didnt? Ahh that was a prime example of VA=/= reality.

She probably didn't even say that lol, the internet is filled with ********. At least they brought the reel back so she appeared in some form lol.

Proud claimer of Cyndaquil and Ezio Auditore from Assassin's Creed !!
Also proud claimer of Assassin's Creed 2 the game!!
Just became the proud claimer of the Marvel's Agent's of S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show ^_^!!!

That "sizable majority" seems to be made up mostly of long-time viewers who don't want change. I'm pretty sure the anime staff has made clear long ago they don't really give a damn about long-time viewers and just want to focus on new generations of kids. If serious TR was really supposed to be a permanent change for them (rather than a change for them before they get written out of the show, as I think it is), then why revert them back just because of long-time viewer complaints? They could just keep them serious and the new kid audiences growing up would come to know and associate TR by their serious attitude. Old viewers who don't like the change could then have the radio show to entertain them instead.

Indeed. Which is why all signs point towards this not just being the long-time viewers, but a sizable chunk of the actual intended audience. It's like back in DP: The audience/fans in general really likes Pochama, so they start extending its role and giving it more screentime. The audience doesn't like the new direction they took some old characters in? They make some specials where the characters act like they did in the old days. The "new generation" doesn't solely consists of kids who have watched the series for a year or so.

Originally Posted by pokemonsquared

Remeber back in the DP days when misty's voice actor said she was returning to the show and the rage that happened when she didnt? Ahh that was a prime example of VA=/= reality.

She did return, though, just in a special most people never even knew existed.

Indeed. Which is why all signs point towards this not just being the long-time viewers, but a sizable chunk of the actual intended audience. It's like back in DP: The audience/fans in general really likes Pochama, so they start extending its role and giving it more screentime. The audience doesn't like the new direction they took some old characters in? They make some specials where the characters act like they did in the old days. The "new generation" doesn't solely consists of kids who have watched the series for a year or so.

She did return, though, just in a special most people never even knew existed.

Wait what?? What special??

Proud claimer of Cyndaquil and Ezio Auditore from Assassin's Creed !!
Also proud claimer of Assassin's Creed 2 the game!!
Just became the proud claimer of the Marvel's Agent's of S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show ^_^!!!

We did, but then that past became completely muddled and contradictory because the writers couldn't keep it straight, from their Housou "origin" special and onward.

Long Running media often contradicts or corrects the older material as it goes on. Retcons are done. Stories are rewritten. Changes in general are made. In the case of " Training Daze " I consider it a retcon since that's how new conflicting material is usually handled.

The retcon actually doesn't change much. Just that:
- Meowth was aware that Giovanni favored Persian over him the whole time.
- Jessie and James did not know each other until Team Rocket Academy.
- The TRio were relatively new grunts when they met Ash the first time.

All of which actually sounds more plausible then the original story now that we know more about these characters. Jessie came from a poor background being an orphan who bounced from foster home to foster home. James was the only child of an extremely rich family. It seemed unlikely that these two would go to Prep School together.

I guess you want them to keep failing so that they'd stay "sympathetic"

I don't see why they couldn't keep winning while being non-serious. That's all.

This, this and probably also this, though I can't verify the last one. No misleading statements, no evidence of anything, just a bunch of people raging because they weren't paying attention when what they were waiting for happened.

Originally Posted by Bisharp

I'd lol if he will say Chronicles or that Photo Cameo on Brock's wall.

Uh... the former was a TV show that had ended in 2004, and the latter was just a visual cameo the voice actor wouldn't have the slightest clue about.... from 2011. We're talking about a statement from 2007 here.

This, this and probably also this, though I can't verify the last one. No misleading statements, no evidence of anything, just a bunch of people raging because they weren't paying attention when what they were waiting for happened.

Uh... the former was a TV show that had ended in 2004, and the latter was just a visual cameo the voice actor wouldn't have the slightest clue about.... from 2011. We're talking about a statement from 2007 here.

Oh so they were like special anniversity episodes. I thought it was like an anime special(although the first one looks to be),

Proud claimer of Cyndaquil and Ezio Auditore from Assassin's Creed !!
Also proud claimer of Assassin's Creed 2 the game!!
Just became the proud claimer of the Marvel's Agent's of S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show ^_^!!!

Oh so they were like special anniversity episodes. I thought it was like an anime special(although the first one looks to be),

They are "quiz tournaments" done in conjunction with Pokemon Sunday, but the questions involve anime trivia which is showcased and explained in-depth, so they partially function as clip shows and behind-the-scenes documentaries as well. And as mentioned, the episodes have Mayumi Iizuka in-character as Kasumi as the narrator/host.

I see we don't have full pictures of the episodes up on the site, we can add those later today. Should make it petty clear what these specials were like.

In Pokemon 9Th Movie cameo , Team Rocket capture and experimented on Rayquaza.
I like to know the hero who saved Rayquaza.
After all, If Team Rocket has something mega legendary like Rayquaza then they would bother going after 2nd grade legendary like the Kai Trio.
Anyway , It could be a future ark where Ash and co saves Rayquaza.
Or , It could be side-story where Jimmy or another Pokemon Game Protagonist saves Rayquaza.
May be , We could see Ethen and Silver join force to save Rayquaza.
Or , Ash might join force with Jimmy and other game Protagonist to save Rayquaza.

They are "quiz tournaments" done in conjunction with Pokemon Sunday, but the questions involve anime trivia which is showcased and explained in-depth, so they partially function as clip shows and behind-the-scenes documentaries as well. And as mentioned, the episodes have Mayumi Iizuka in-character as Kasumi as the narrator/host.

I see we don't have full pictures of the episodes up on the site, we can add those later today. Should make it petty clear what these specials were like.

Proud claimer of Cyndaquil and Ezio Auditore from Assassin's Creed !!
Also proud claimer of Assassin's Creed 2 the game!!
Just became the proud claimer of the Marvel's Agent's of S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show ^_^!!!

I hope your right for once but the writers will most likely troll us like usual lol.

Proud claimer of Cyndaquil and Ezio Auditore from Assassin's Creed !!
Also proud claimer of Assassin's Creed 2 the game!!
Just became the proud claimer of the Marvel's Agent's of S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show ^_^!!!