Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

Originally Posted by pluralist

No, I am not living in the future. I fully agree that this new Commissioner's on-the-job performance should be monitored carefully and closely. I understand your point that he reports to an FG minister for justice, but they are very much a minority government, there are plenty of opposition TD's who have a proven record of whistleblowing and using their parliamentary privilege, when appropriate, to make the public aware of corrupt practices, and we still have a (somewhat) free media.

I am merely arguing that the guy might be given a chance. If he turns out to be what you and Apjp claim he is, fair enough, I will join you in calling for him to be removed from his office.

Bear in mind Chris Patten, a former Tory minister, was given the job of reforming the RUC and the resistance to his proposals all came from the unionist side. The nationalist side thought that he did a pretty good job in identifying the issues and the reforms that were so badly needed in the RUC.

Would you prefer a Yank to be appointed as Garda Commissioner? I suspect not. But even you did, it is not clear that any senior American coppers even bothered applying for the role.

The idea that there is no Irish person capable of being a good head of the State security and 'peace gardian' services is simply ridiculous.

What exactly makes you think the agenda of the British State in Ireland is to provide us with good, democratically controlled civilian safety and intelligence services ? And for whose benefit are their police and intelligence forces created, trained and directed ?

This is an imperialist machine you are talking about, albeit a rusty one.

Last edited by C. Flower; 28-06-2018 at 11:13 PM.

“ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”— Jean-Paul Sartre

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

Originally Posted by Apjp

I am not about to accuse a former MI5 Agent who has now somehow wormed his way into heading up the top security apparatus of the Irish State of anything that serious, as we are bound by Irish law on this forum. That the British State and the organisations of which he was a longstanding stalwart did same is in no doubt, and we know for a fact he obstructed justice in these respects and refused to investigate certain gangs or people and refused to release certain files.

However the simple fact of the matter is that the MI5 have form in all of these areas and yes you are right, internal procedural corruption and favours granted within An Garda Siochana and even the vicious smear campaign against McCabe all pale in significance to the potential threats posed by the new Garda Commissioner, about whom we know very little, what we do know in respect of his covering up of files in relation to the British State's murder campaign with via Glennane that was visited on Irish citizens and other files, and in respect of refusing to investigate certain people in the contexts aforementioned, and his previous form in arresting the SF Party leader in the run up to a political election, not to mind his testimony to the Smithwick campaign and his current IRA under the bed comments(saying that the current Garda force is probably riddled with gang members) can all be perceived as the actions of someone who is very hostile towards Irish people and the Irish State's Constitutional norms as set out in law and in the Bunreacht indeed.

His fanciful scare-stories on the 'IRA' infiltrating the Gardai in this day and age in particular smack of old school imperial racist stereotypes against Irish people and a pretty outdated British view of the world that is really pretty dangerous, not to mind insulting to our intelligence. Classic diversion tactics.

You would hope the Garda Ombudsman, the new Policing Authority and G2 will keep tabs on this man but political scrutiny is equally important. The abuses of the Gardai in the past are almost trivial compared to what this man may have done in the past on procedural corruption alone, not to mind the security risk and very grave intelligence risk he now likely poses.

The SF leadership, a BBC NI reporter and a prominent Independent Donegal Councillor(who contacted Flanagan's office directly) are among the outspoken few doing their job and questioning this in some respects. It isn't some far left conspiracy to worry about infiltration of the State, espionage, a cop with form on vicious cover ups in relation to some murder investigations and political partisanship in relation to others where it was advantageous to embarrass a sitting Republican Party leader, and as I keep repeating any serious politicians and civil servants or servants of the State out there ought to be aware of the risk to National Security and Intelligence this poses. FG just want the media and everyone else to accept this guy as some noble outsider who naturally must be better than any serving member or Irish citizen for the job 'cos of his experience' without looking into the brutal and appalling nature of that experience, from what we know.

I just love how all his cheerleaders don't actually bother their holes to do any homework on him, cos sure the Gardai must be the worst cops in the world. A man who covers up for State murder and obstructs justice is about as bent a cop as you can get, in fact he's downright criminal.

Callinan and O'Sullivan directed smear campaigns, covered up penalty points scandals and crushed dissent, but they never covered up for those who committed mass murder or arrested a party leader to make a political point. From what we actually know, and the info is out there for anyone who cares to bother their hole doing some digging(it took me 10-15 minutes to find 3-4 good reports about him), This man is dangerous.

Collins knew that intelligence and security were key to power. So does the British State establishment. They are p***** themselves laughing over this.

Giving them the armed forces to run would be less damaging (although I bet FG would love to do that).

It is hard to see Ireland as an independent state now tbh.

Last edited by C. Flower; 28-06-2018 at 11:28 PM.

“ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”— Jean-Paul Sartre

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

I don't know, we have to hope either some of the politicians mentioned above and the likes of the BBC NI correspondent will keep public scrutiny up regularly, and other State actors are going to be keeping an eye on him-our Garda Ombudsman, some whistleblower within G2 or something-that organisation is responsible for intelligence gathering in a general context, not just military, and also supports the Gardai in counter-espionage so they would be well versed in who has done what in their careers.

You would think after how he lead the phoney investigation into Adams to appease the Unionists, SF would be waiting for their chance. They have to pretend to care about respecting him for the moment as he's new to the job but give it a few months and a scandal or two, let's see just how well the Party line and media line holds up to public scrutiny.

The Irish media is beyond a joke. The only outlet from within the State that covered this man's dodgy past was the Donegal Daily-the only other relatively professional reporting and digging on him was done by The Belfast Telegraph and BBC.

Mick Clifford needs to spend some time away from the Disclosures Tribunal and do some serious digging here, but even a good internal journalist like that does not seem to have any eye for a story when a Commissioner from outside the jurisdiction with a dodgy policing past/espionage past is appointed like this. Disappointed in him after all his good work the last 5 years to be so silent on this.

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

And yes never forget Collins won the Intelligence war and some people I guess never really got over the fact that while the war was a stalemate, they were destroyed and beaten at their own game in that respect. He is one of the few Irish historical figures mentioned in British museums and is often cited as one of Britain's greatest enemies, at least in terms of intelligence operations, counter-espionage and guerilla warfare. He understood you had to be pure methodical and ruthless with them.

SF need to bide their time here and play this card well to highlight FG's joke of a line that they are hard on Brexit and Britain over the border-when clearly they are in Britain's pocket in terms of geopolitics, national security, intelligence and any other number of crucial areas that make up any semblance of an independent State.

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

Slugger O Toole has made a good start focusing on an important bit of testimony in the Smithwick Tribunal which is not the same piece of testimony I quoted earlier, it is instead to do with the killing of Tom Oliver in 1991. It was almost as though Harris was directed by MI5 to stir things up. British 'Intelligence suggested' but there was no evidence given, just a name suggested a killer. Gardai took issue with other testimony he had given back then, so who knows if anything he said can be believed?

The political fallout of all that and the 2014 arrest of Gerry Adams, ordered by Harris, also makes this a politically toxic appointment.

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

Judge did not allow the case to go forward. Not a big surprise.

Still, well done to Ciaran MacCairt for taking the case, at least drawing attention to this bizarre and appalling situation. MacCairt is clearly correct, that Harris is not in the position to investigate murders of Irish citizens involving 'collusion' (British State forces/operatives) as he is bound by the U.K. Official Secrets Act.

What a crazy situation. All those people who died or endured jail to get us a modicum of independence....

“ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”— Jean-Paul Sartre

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

Originally Posted by C. Flower

Judge did not allow the case to go forward. Not a big surprise.

Still, well done to Ciaran MacCairt for taking the case, at least drawing attention to this bizarre and appalling situation. MacCairt is clearly correct, that Harris is not in the position to investigate murders of Irish citizens involving 'collusion' (British State forces/operatives) as he is bound by the U.K. Official Secrets Act.

What a crazy situation. All those people who died or endured jail to get us a modicum of independence....

It's depressing to see the insecurities some people still hang on to.

As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

Originally Posted by C. Flower

Would you welcome a Senior official of the KGB being appointed to run the FBI ?

Such a simplistic analogy does not make a valid comparison. RoI and UK do not have nukes pointed at each other. Currently, only about 1% of the US population is Russian born, whereas Ireland's UK born population is 6%+. More if you add N.I. It's not as if the UK has been attempting to throw RoI elections lately. There's also a reasonably long list of successful Russian-Americans in a variety of fields, Arts, Science, Sports, Business, Politics etc. How many successful UK-Irish can you name.

Not for the first time, the emotionally loaded wording of your thread title (takeover) conveys a guilty until proven innocent philosophy similar to Dr. Five's

in the Dennis O'Brien thread. It speaks to all kinds of insecurities.

As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu

There's also a reasonably long list of successful Russian-Americans in a variety of fields, Arts, Science, Sports, Business, Politics etc. How many successful UK-Irish can you name.

Not seeing your point here? There are plenty of successful UK-Irish, from Morrissey to the Gallagher brothers to Phillip Tracey to Niall Fitzgerald (former Unilever Chief Exec) but even if there weren't not seeing the relevance.

"If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

Originally Posted by pluralist

Not seeing your point here? There are plenty of successful UK-Irish, from Morrissey to the Gallagher brothers to Phillip Tracey to Niall Fitzgerald (former Unilever Chief Exec) but even if there weren't not seeing the relevance.

Yes you are missing the point. Morrissey and others like him are not UK-Irish, they are Irish-UK, in that they are UK citizens of Irish extraction, as in Irish-American. I was referring to the opposite UK-Irish. Irish citizens born in the UK. I believe Morrissey achieved success in the UK before Ireland. Could be wrong.

I can't think of a single person, but then I'm too far removed. Even Jackie Charlton doesn't qualify, he was successful in the UK first.

In the US context, I'm thinking of people like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shalikashvili

As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu

Such a simplistic analogy does not make a valid comparison. RoI and UK do not have nukes pointed at each other. Currently, only about 1% of the US population is Russian born, whereas Ireland's UK born population is 6%+. More if you add N.I. It's not as if the UK has been attempting to throw RoI elections lately. There's also a reasonably long list of successful Russian-Americans in a variety of fields, Arts, Science, Sports, Business, Politics etc. How many successful UK-Irish can you name.

Not for the first time, the emotionally loaded wording of your thread title (takeover) conveys a guilty until proven innocent philosophy similar to Dr. Five's in the Dennis O'Brien thread. It speaks to all kinds of insecurities.

Insecurity is the condition of the Irish state in this the grotesque situation of having gifted control of the Irish State security agency and police to the British State. Not only does this Special Branch/M15 'liaison' guy get the post, he gets to 'appoint his own team' of senior officers. Fine Gael whose precursors at the beginning of this State worked with the British to bomb the Four Courts of course knows exactly what it is doing. Not nukes maybe, but the British State is implicated in horrendous bombings on Irish Republic territory, and the chances of this guy doing anything to investigate or expose such activities is less than zero.

“ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”— Jean-Paul Sartre

Re: British Take Over An Garda Siochána - Appointment of PSNI Second in Command as Chief Commissioner

Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu

I can't think of a single person, but then I'm too far removed. Even Jackie Charlton doesn't qualify, he was successful in the UK first.

Ah, ok. I understand your point now, but don't really agree with it. Two members of U2 were born in the UK, and of English/Welsh parentage. Their former manager Paul McGuinness was the son of a RAF man. Other examples, Alan Stanford (the actor), Martyn Turner (the Irish Times cartoonist, Kevin Myers (journalist and writer), Bruce Arnold (author and journalist), Martin Mansergh (British born Irish republican).

I don't entirely reject your point though, having an English accent in Ireland, I'd guess, is no great advantage, and even these days possibly generates a degree of anti-Brit phobia.

Last edited by pluralist; 23-08-2018 at 08:56 PM.

"If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.