00:02:57 synx: I mentally expand lets into lambdas anyway, just like a good macro expander should. :-P
00:03:52 That's not to say that I don't find named-let forms handy, just that it's important to remember what it does eventually become.
00:04:03 Hmm i just thought of something.. I've already created a zip method that does the opposite.. is it possible to create a generic operation that simply reverses another operation?
00:04:31 illio: Some operations have hard-to-calculate inverses. That's how, say, public-key cryptography works. :-P
00:04:49 so that if zip takes two lists like (2 3) (4 5) and outputs (2 . 4) (3 . 5) .. can you do the opposite easily?
00:05:00 *cky* deliberately twisted illio's question, yes. :-P
00:05:10 cky, sure sure.. but for simple operations :-P
00:05:39 illio: :-P
00:05:53 I can't seem to get this procedure right.. so that kind of solution would save quite a lot of trouble.. however I have no idea if it's possible to do
00:06:33 I have a "stupid" solution to that, using fold-right.
00:06:44 I have no idea what a smart solution would look like.
00:06:50 cky, fold-right?
00:07:17 specbot: srfi-1 fold-right
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00:07:30 Hmm, maybe I'm not invoking specbot the right way. :-P
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00:07:50 specbot: srfi1 fold-right
00:07:55 specbot: fold-right
00:08:05 Hmm. What if I don't address specbot....
00:08:09 srfi-1 fold-right
00:08:14 Eh, I give up.
00:08:26 hehe.. I'll check google
00:08:31 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#fold-right
00:08:40 There, manually linked it myself. :-)
00:10:22 Guile's documentation for the fold operators is arguably easier to digest: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/SRFI_002d1-Fold-and-Map.html
00:10:26 -rudybot__:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/cfgl7g
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00:14:05 cky: It takes at least two lambdas to form one let though. Plus they have to be out of sequential order.
00:14:42 synx: Yep, which is why I prefer to use named-let when I can.
00:15:17 recursion with lambdas produces some crazy looking code.
00:16:19 Yeah, I reckon!
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00:26:34 hi. is there a way to make cursor stop blinking in drscheme?
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00:33:13 what is the difference between eq? and equal?
00:34:16 EQ? is finer-grained. For further details, see
00:34:21 r5rs eq?
00:34:22 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_216
00:34:24 -rudybot__:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/6hr3jb
00:34:53 three bots?
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00:35:33 the bots would take over, but they are not very smart
00:38:47 I simply can't seem to find a solution that works.. I've tried taking a look at let and fiddling with it.. haven't gotten anything yet.. anyone have any ideas? I basically need to manage two lists at once I guess?..
00:39:19 I could do it for you illio. But yes, you need two lists at once. Three lists actually, the source list and the two result lists.
00:39:31 oh yeah.. if anyone forgot (or came in since then).. here's what I'm talking about: I need to create a simple procedure unzip as shown here: http://pastebin.com/d52f522ee .. what I have right now is this: http://pastebin.com/d665d451b .. I'm probably doing something simple wrong.. petite is telling me: "Error: attempt to apply non-procedure (2)."
00:39:53 synx, is there any way to do that without let? can't get it to work :-(
00:40:09 Why do you have (( in there? ((list I mean
00:40:38 You want to do it without let, illio? It's harder to understand that way.
00:42:10 synx, well in a way yeah.. because following the book I'm doing right now.. the let part hasn't actually been used in any real useful way yet.. so it's fairly obvious that the authors had other methods in mind.. I'm just afraid I won't be able to understand the let way right now anyway..
00:44:13 does your book have "lambda" yet?
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00:45:04 neilv, year
00:45:06 *yeah
00:45:31 you can think of "let" as applying a procedure
00:45:50 neilv, okay..
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00:50:19 neilv pasted "equivalent" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79618
00:51:44 though that's a roundabout way of getting back to your problem. you want recursive procedures
00:53:42 let is applying a procedure, but named let is applying a procedure with itself as an argument. I've always found that tricky to work out on paper.
00:55:46 named-let is very simple, once let is understood. reducing it to applications of closures obscures its practical meaning, imho
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00:57:59 thanks for your help.. but I can't wrap my head around more today (it's 3 am) .. so I'll sleep now.. I'll take it up tomorrow again
00:58:17 I probably just don't understand let then, in terms of lambda...
00:58:28 illio: no problem. come again!
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00:59:30 understanding named-let in terms of let is useful
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01:00:07 To me, (let named ((foo 1) (bar 2) (baz 3)) (...)) => (let ((named (lambda (foo bar baz) (...)))) (named 1 2 3))
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01:00:29 So, yes there is a let in the expansion as I had it, but obviously expanding _that_ let to a lambda is trivial. :-)
01:02:19 synx pasted "named let?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79620
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01:04:24 cky annotated #79620 "This is how I expand it" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79620#1
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01:06:41 So I was wrong, I ended up turning the thing into a letrec instead of a let (and I'm not sure whether letrec is a "primitive" in Scheme, or whether there's a practical way to expand that).
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01:11:08 heh well letrec is kind of cheating, but it's still at least factoring out the 'n'
01:12:09 Would using the Y combinator be considered cheating? :-P
01:12:19 cheating is cheating
01:12:56 geckosenator: ????
01:13:11 geckosenator: I take it you don't approve of using _any_ recursion in the expansion, then.
01:14:40 The Y combinator is not cheating, but it's still beyond my ability to use.
01:15:13 You're trying to implement named let using lambda, which arguably doesn't say a thing about which one is better.
01:15:26 no wait
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01:15:29 I use recursion
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01:15:55 cky: geckosenator was saying (if (cheating) (cheating) #t)
01:17:01 or... something like that... (define cheating (if (cheat...bleh
01:19:20 *lol*
01:19:47 synx: Eh, I think I'll stick to the named lets, huh. :-P
01:19:58 likewise
01:22:31 *cky* Googles "macroexpand letrec" to see if there are any smart geniuses who have a "neat" way to do this.
01:23:02 yay geniii
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01:24:16 geniii? Is that a result you found on Google?
01:24:24 Oh, plural of genius.
01:24:26 :-P
01:24:31 No it's a..yeah
01:24:41 stupid, I know. x3
01:24:55 :-P
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02:14:27 http://mokehehe.blogspot.com/2009/04/picture-language-on-biwascheme.html
02:15:21 foof: what's up in Japan?
02:16:07 flashy! http://mono.kmc.gr.jp/~yhara/biwascheme/test/spec.html
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02:40:57 ppicture language
02:46:57 Biwa is the biggest lake in Japan.
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03:09:08 *jcowan* unvanishes with confidence.
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03:34:14 Good evenin', y'all.
03:34:47 Does anyone here know of a decent pretty printer for Scheme that outputs to TeX?
03:38:46 slatex does that fairly well
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03:43:26 aspect: Does that output TeX or LaTeX?
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03:52:01 arcfide: LaTeX; I don't know about getting pure TeX
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03:53:30 Guess I'll just have to write my own. :-)
03:53:37 arcfide: Why do you need a pretty printer that outputs tex?
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03:53:53 That is, why not use an existing pretty printer?
03:53:55 eli: just playing around. I was hoping to have it already done for me.
03:54:23 eli: Do you have a pretty printer that will result in code nicely formatted that can be dropped into TeX easily?
03:54:36 I'm looking for more than the standard indentation prettying.
03:54:37 Well, the only la/tex that you need is the ability to produce a number of spaces to have the indentation right.
03:54:53 Things like highlighting the proper lexical values uniquely, along with known Scheme tokens, &c.
03:54:53 What's the "more" part?
03:55:38 Sort of getting Syntax Highlighting in a form that I could use for printed output.
03:56:08 Since I am using TeX in this instance, I would like to get the output in that form, but of course, I'm not attached to that if I can get it to that form eventually.
03:56:15 OK, so you're talking about indentation and colors -- ?
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03:56:53 eli: Fonts really, maybe evening swapping out LAMBDA with a real Greek Symbol, or other greek names likewise.
03:57:33 Those are all doable within latex.
03:57:55 I want it to identify the different parts of the code in certain ways so that I can then use my own styles to pretty print the code and such.
03:57:59 eli: Of course they are doable. I was wondering if someone had already done it.
03:58:01 Something like a command that is used around symbols to set the style, which you can independently redefine, etc.
03:58:11 eli: And I am using eplain + some other macros, not LaTeX.
03:58:18 Yes.
03:58:21 Why not latex?
03:58:33 eli: Call me weird. I don't like messing with LaTeX's formatting.
03:58:46 eli: I prefer to have more control over exactly how I want everything to look.
03:59:11 And it is easier for me to do that in regular TeX than messing with LaTeX. That may also be because I learned TeX first.
03:59:26 You still get that with latex, the delta between them is pretty small when it comes to generating the code.
03:59:46 Anyways, I don't want the result in LaTeX, so, if there is something else out there, I'll use it, otherwise, I'll do it myself.
04:00:12 In any case, you can see how the plt scribble tool generates latex, though it does much more than just formatting code.
04:00:15 If the LaTeX generaters are easy enough to work with, I'll use them.
04:03:23 require: PLaneT could not find the requested package: Server had no matching package: No package matched the specified criteria
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04:03:57 in scribble, how do i typeset a "#lang" line? putting it in "@verbatim" isn't working
04:04:18 and also, that error message doesn't indicate which part of the file is the problem
04:04:53 ah, "@hashlang" ?
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04:06:45 neilv: probably, and I don't know about the planet errors...
04:07:15 @verbatim["#lang ...\n"] works
04:07:34 can i get a hint on implementing COND for the original lisp -- im stuck on evaluating the predicates. do i call eval and if so, i need to get a hold of the environment, right?
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04:52:28 msingh: just so
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06:30:27 what's the name of that little live-coding scheme 3d thingy
06:30:37 fluxus?
06:30:40 yes!
06:30:42 thank you
06:31:00 anybody know how to do this well :)
06:31:06 i want to make some graphicxxxx
06:32:00 neilv: ping
06:32:21 i know FP and all
06:32:28 just not so familiar with the graphics bit of it
06:33:27 hi eli
06:34:27 neilv: With a quick grep I think I know where the problem is.
06:35:03 neilv: Will you be able to test a patch?
06:35:31 not right now. i'm deep into debugging something, plus i do not have a patchable tree right now
06:35:36 thanks, but sorry
06:35:56 neilv: ok
06:38:16 i'm trying to figure out how to get syntax/module-reader to work in a planet package
06:40:23 neilv: I committed the probable fix, see the email.
06:40:31 neilv: Why do you need a new reader?
06:40:45 thanks
06:41:05 this is for the sicp language
06:41:30 even what dherman is doing here doesn't look right. http://planet.plt-scheme.org/package-source/dherman/javascript.plt/9/1/lang/reader.ss
06:41:33 -rudybot__:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/d43jtj
06:41:52 Yes, but why exactly? (IOW, I guessed that you're not writing a completely new syntax, so the question is what is the difference from the standard reader that you want to get)
06:42:19 -!- asdgasd [n=asdgas@syru217-119.syr.edu] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
06:42:49 mostly just making mutable pairs print the expected way. little things like that
06:43:33 You mean print or read?
06:43:53 er, read
06:44:41 i kludged this a while ago. just now trying to package it up so people can test it
06:44:58 If you want quote in the language to create mutable pairs, then it'll be easier to just define a quote macro (etc), no?
06:46:00 at this time, i just want the code that was working as a locally-installed collection to work when a planet package
06:46:07 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-72-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
06:46:20 this one-hour packaging project has turned into a person-day
06:46:38 Ah, so the problem is not in writing the reader, it is making it work with planet?
06:48:07 yes. i think i will try doing what dherman is doing here with #:language
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06:50:18 neilv: ok, I see the problem, and what he's doing looks sensible.
06:50:26 even though I didn't think of that as a use case...
06:50:46 i wonder whether i can use a relative file path
06:51:12 That won't work right, I think.
06:51:40 IIRC, it will insert the sexpr there as is.
06:51:41 nope, doesn't
06:51:49 It doesn't what?
06:51:54 open-input-file: cannot open input file: "/home/main.ss" (No such file or directory; errno=2)
06:51:54 . Module Language: invalid language specification in: "../main.ss"
06:52:14 You mean it doesn't work? Yes, that's not surprising.
06:52:43 it is interpreting it as a filename relative to the current directory for drscheme, rather than as a require module-spec
06:53:14 To make it work, mzscheme will have to somehow figure out that (module foo "blah.ss" ...) should use the "blah.ss" relative to the source of the string itself.
06:53:47 it works for "require". why not here?
06:54:14 similarly, (file "../main.ss") does not work
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06:54:31 I suspect that it doesn't work for require, but you're seeing the effect of a `require' form from a different context or something like that.
06:55:17 i do (require "foo.ss") all the time, to mean the module in "foo.ss" in the same directory as the file in which the "require" form occurs
06:56:35 Right, but that's a use of `require' that uses a string that is relative to its own source file -- and that works just fine.
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06:57:15 What you're describing would be like writing some macro that expands to (require "foo.ss"), where "foo.ss" is relative to the macro source rather than the macro use.
06:57:54 (And that should work, btw, because there's a whole form there that determines the source context for resolving the relative filename.)
06:57:58 do i have any option other than doing what dherman is doing with a (planet ...)?
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06:58:36 I'm not sure about that -- asking on the mailing list would be much more effective.
06:59:10 But it's worth it to look at the archives -- it's likely that Dave asked about it.
06:59:19 ... or just mail and ask him.
06:59:24 this will teach me to commit to projects that are low-priority for me, but that i think i can whip off quickly to help someone else
06:59:53 it's 3am, and i want this done, so that i can do real stuff tomorrow
07:00:09 neilv: any chance on removing object from the list of blank elements in htmlprag, by the way?
07:00:11 *cough*make-list*cough*
07:01:00 klutometis: yes, in the successor to htmlprag
07:01:36 htmlprag itself is probably frozen. i have a pile of new libraries and a new sxml/sexpr variant to unify everything for xml and html
07:01:45 neilv: oh, nice; does it have a name?
07:01:58 html-read :)
07:02:21 looking forward to it; do ping when it's usable
07:02:35 there will be announcements. it will all be for plt first
07:03:13 eli: you are getting paid. albeit at academic rather than industry levels :)
07:04:52 neilv: Well, what I'm paid for (and whether srfi-1 trivia is included) is questionable...
07:05:02 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit []
07:05:17 that's the nature of academic jobs
07:05:45 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0558AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme
07:10:33 bah. a planet install of dherman/javascript barfed due to memory limit
07:16:40 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme
07:20:45 i got that to work, and had to move my source out of my collects tree, so that the drscheme tool didn't barf on duplicate get-language-numbers when it was getting one from my collects tree and one (or more) from planet. now i can't do "setup-plt -l " to build
07:21:23 i should learn python and go work for google
07:22:26 alternatively, i could make get-language-numbers and get-language-position sensitive to where the source code was coming from
07:22:46 I thought that `setup-plt -l' should work for planet packages.
07:23:14 But that's more than what I actually know, and I suspect that people on the list will have better advice.
07:24:25 bad collection path: (planet neil/sicp 1 5)
07:24:41 ah. without an argument
07:25:03 wait. this is not doing the right thing
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07:26:04 it's rebuilding the universe, including the main plt tree (to which it doesn't have write access)
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07:28:54 *neilv* goes to play gta while this runs
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15:16:00 man screen
15:16:00 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/screen.1.html
15:16:03 -rudybot__:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4gf3t9
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16:11:52 man ed
16:11:52 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/ed.1.html
16:11:54 -rudybot__:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/3e37ks
16:12:12 man boy
16:12:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for boy.
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16:49:20 srfi1 reduce
16:49:25 srfi reduce
16:49:55 I remember someone successfully getting specbot to send references to SRFI-1. I can't remember the keyword to use though. :-)
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17:40:45 incubot: We must reinvest continuously to keep up with the methods that are used by those who threaten the UK and its interests.
17:40:48 can you define `file-based' versus `image-based', in any terms other than `the mode of operation is a Unixoid command repeatedly invoked with different options, versus having a continuously running process by which one interacts with Scheme'?
17:44:01 incubot: does torturing a poor luser with things beyond its comprehension please you?
17:44:04 but in light of this: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~chaitin/wis.html i see fonc struggling with "major" challenge which will be inevitable squandered by luser programmers like moi ;}
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17:46:21 incubot: It is 30 years since Margaret Thatcher took up residence in Downing Street and became the UK's first female prime minister.
17:46:25 i wake up drunk all the time. means i have a few hours before i get a hang over, so i can start downing water
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17:55:37 Riastradh, ping. I made changes to the make-liarc.sh and other changes (suggested by you) and could successfully build the portable C sources using 'make -j2' . I am interested to work on the fix. Wondering what the ideal solution would be..
17:56:01 Riastradh, mit-scheme Bug: http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?24338
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18:08:01 cornucopic: how big is the patch?
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18:09:46 mejja, for the single case that I tried, its a total of 6 lines :(. But, I would like to work on it more to move towards the complete solution, which I would like to get an opinion on.. I can kick-start a discussion on the devel alias..
18:12:23 can you paste it?
18:12:59 mejja, Ok. Its against the portable C sources 20090107..fine ?
18:13:12 sure...
18:13:49 wait while I diff..
18:14:15 http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme
18:18:13 lol, i just found a funny bug in IronScheme that I never picked up in all this time (list (vector 1 2)) => (1 2)
18:19:48 is that a bug?
18:20:04 it's a feature!
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18:20:14 rudybot__: eval (list (vector 1 2))
18:20:15 leppie: your sandbox is ready
18:20:15 leppie: ; Value: (#(1 2))
18:20:30 hint: I use vectors for varargs :)
18:20:40 and stuff like (apply list '(1 2 3)) actually copies the list
18:22:19 bug fixed :)
18:23:41 leppie: really ?
18:23:58 why would you do that
18:24:35 i strive NOT to be like you :)
18:26:43 cornucopic pasted "patches for mit-scheme-24338" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79645
18:27:21 mejja, I have pasted the individual file patches ^
18:27:31 thank you
18:27:31 mejja, I hope you can use it ..
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18:30:26 leppie, that was it?
18:34:01 leppie, that was it?
18:34:55 nah, just my unstoppable will to fix bugs
18:35:29 leppie, no clue what you're talking about actually. What I'm wondering is if you've got anything more to say than some vague insult
18:36:57 sorry, i thought your rhetorical question was an attempt at 'humour'
18:37:05 no
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18:42:47 mejja, Could you try the patches?
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18:50:01 Riastradh: I've written (or rather am writing) a Mime-Type parser using parscheme; would you care to take a quick look for obvious mistakes or mis-usage of parscheme?
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19:27:07 whoops
19:27:08 bombshelter13_: fail
19:27:12 yep
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