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Topic: Harbinger's Testimonial (Read 1087 times)

one of the introduction pages here ask these questions, and encourages Christians to answer. them. I thought I would offer my answers.

What is it that makes your belief so strong?

I think it may be best to keep things brief here. There is so much to say though. I'll tell you where it all started for me. If God loves us and wants us to come to Him why wouldn't He tell us what He wants? The Bible was written in 66 books, over more than 1500 years, by 40+ writers the majority of these never met. We have lots of evidence to support all of these claims, Both religious and secular. The Bible does something here that a dozen professors, all in the same room, over the course of 1 year, have trouble doing. Rather you believe The Bible or not is a side issue. Even if you believe there are a few contradictions, they are still less than we should expect IF it was written by man alone. some of the abstract concepts go so deep I have trouble thinking any man wrote them. These facts alone, supported by history, are amazing. Throw in some completed, verifiable, prophesy and How can you not believe?

How has God effected your life?

With my wife, friends, and family as witnesses, He changed me! I have been given a whole new nature. things like swearing, bar hopping, drinking, and woman chasing were enjoyable activities to me at one time. Now, and just about overnight, none of these are things I even want to do. I tried many times to stop doing these things but it was never in my own power to do them. Only God can give a new nature!

Why do you think it is important for others to believe?

You have been created by an almighty powerful being. He should receive Honor and respect. The Bible teaches that one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. Also if you are not with me, than you are against me. I think it's better to be a willing subject than unwilling enemy.

Are there any miracles or personal experiences that you have seen, either in your life or in the lives of others, that you would like to share?

I was personally healed of GIRD. My wife was healed of a heart condition. Both of these were conditions that required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist.

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I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Nigell4me is batshit crazy. Here she has a coincidental attack of influenza and thus proves she is "earthquake sensitive."

I appreciate your honesty in wanting to join a recently invented group of crazies "because it's cool." I look forward to youtube videos of your worshipping broccoli and dancing round trees. I am sure that all that will make the world a better place and you won't have to study anything at all, so even the least intellectually gifted can appear "cool" whilst at the same time pretending that there are some mysterious gods and goddesses doing something.

Yes, Wicca is for the mentally feeble but then again, if you all group together, then you won't feel inferior, will you?

Anyway, good luck with that.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

I was personally healed of GIRD. My wife was healed of a heart condition. Both of these were conditions that required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist.

So it was God and not the surgery that healed? Did the surgery heal either of you in any way?

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How has God effected your life?

With my wife, friends, and family as witnesses, He changed me! I have been given a whole new nature. things like swearing, bar hopping, drinking, and woman chasing were enjoyable activities to me at one time. Now, and just about overnight, none of these are things I even want to do. I tried many times to stop doing these things but it was never in my own power to do them. Only God can give a new nature!

I understand what you are saying here but I will have to disagree. I used to bar hop, chase women, and pee in the street or what have you all the time. I still drink but I couldn’t tell you the last time I was in a bar or club because I don’t enjoy them. When in a relationship it is easy for me to not chase women. I don’t know why but I somehow turn off the cheating desire switch. Would you say my nature has changed or I just don’t go out due to different motivations than you? After all its motivations that drive us all. Your motivation is God and that’s fine. My motivation is bars/clubs annoy me. Both our motivations keep us out of bars and thus out of trouble and we are more upstanding citizens in our communities because of it. I feel its border line insulting to state someone can't have a new nature unless a deity deems it necessary. It's like claiming people don’t mature or lack empathy or the ability to realize what they are doing is wrong and stop. Not everyone mind you, because some people just suck.

no wiccans worship the creation rather than the creator. Whole different thread though.

Anyway, either I didn't make my point clear enough or you misunderstood. There was NO surgery none at all. Nor was there any treatment unless Tums counts as a treatment. These conditions are conditions that only get fixed by surgery.

I was personally healed of GIRD. My wife was healed of a heart condition. Both of these were conditions that required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist.

So it was God and not the surgery that healed? Did the surgery heal either of you in any way?

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How has God effected your life?

With my wife, friends, and family as witnesses, He changed me! I have been given a whole new nature. things like swearing, bar hopping, drinking, and woman chasing were enjoyable activities to me at one time. Now, and just about overnight, none of these are things I even want to do. I tried many times to stop doing these things but it was never in my own power to do them. Only God can give a new nature!

I understand what you are saying here but I will have to disagree. I used to bar hop, chase women, and pee in the street or what have you all the time. I still drink but I couldn’t tell you the last time I was in a bar or club because I don’t enjoy them. When in a relationship it is easy for me to not chase women. I don’t know why but I somehow turn off the cheating desire switch. Would you say my nature has changed or I just don’t go out due to different motivations than you? After all its motivations that drive us all. Your motivation is God and that’s fine. My motivation is bars/clubs annoy me. Both our motivations keep us out of bars and thus out of trouble and we are more upstanding citizens in our communities because of it. I feel its border line insulting to state someone can't have a new nature unless a deity deems it necessary. It's like claiming people don’t mature or lack empathy or the ability to realize what they are doing is wrong and stop. Not everyone mind you, because some people just suck.

no wiccans worship the creation rather than the creator. Whole different thread though.

Anyway, either I didn't make my point clear enough or you misunderstood. There was NO surgery none at all. Nor was there any treatment unless Tums counts as a treatment. These conditions are conditions that only get fixed by surgery.

You don't like bars. Never did I assume? I loved bars and everything about them. Loved chasing women. Loved drinking. Drugs too I should add. When I didn't get to do these things I would be very irritated. this wasn't a decision I made to please God. This was an overnight change in me. I no longer even think of these things as entertainment. I know you want to make it rational, but it's not. my wife says I am not the man she married and she even didn't like it at first. It was sudden and shocking.

I don't mean to insult anyone. As you can always change your mind or decide something based on a new perhaps more mature attitude. These things develop over time though and do not reflect what is meant by new nature.

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I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

no wiccans worship the creation rather than the creator. Whole different thread though.

Lol did you read the thread title?

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Anyway, either I didn't make my point clear enough or you misunderstood. There was NO surgery none at all. Nor was there any treatment unless Tums counts as a treatment. These conditions are conditions that only get fixed by surgery.

My mistake I misread what you typed. I apologize.

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You don't like bars. Never did I assume?

I don’t know did you? I told a story to rationalize your statement. Perhaps I should have said I don’t enjoy them anymore.

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When I didn't get to do these things I would be very irritated. this wasn't a decision I made to please God. This was an overnight change in me. I no longer even think of these things as entertainment.

Would you say your drinking, drugs, and party lifestyle impacted your life in a negative way back then? Would you claim you realized while in this rockstar lifestyle you were leading that you had a problem that needed to be changed?What is it that entertains you now?

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I know you want to make it rational, but it's not

Why/how is it not rational.

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I don't mean to insult anyone. As you can always change your mind or decide something based on a new perhaps more mature attitude. These things develop over time though and do not reflect what is meant by new nature.

Italics are mine. Why can I not change my mind overnight? Are you claiming going "cold turkey" is 100% impossible?

Actually no I thought this was a generic testimony thread.. lol oh well I'm here now. Thanks for having me.

Anyway all good questions. I Loved the bars. Clubs more than bars though. I was a dancer... lol. I always thought I would even own a bar/club someday. Now, I wouldn't want to be the fuel for the fire. what happens at those clubs is just... sick!

There was really nothing going wrong with my "rock star" lifestyle. My wife was happy, the kids were happy and well taken care of. Honestly there was no dramatic reason to start feeling the way I did. I guess it all started because I started to study the Bible. In all honesty because I'm a jerk and wanted to show these Mormons where they got it wrong. No I am not Mormon. As for current entertainment... I have 7 kids so not much time for free time. I lead a bible study group. I mostly just read books. Before the change I hadn't read a book since High school. That's about 15 yrs. Even then it was mostly forced. Once in a while we may have a dinner party but that's more my wife than me. Home repair and improvement. I'll help at the church whenever I can. I like to listen to sermonaudio.com they have sermons on everything even wicca. Movie/family nights are nice. Another thing that's new. Dates with my wife. Normally dinner and a movie. Although last time we just went window shopping.

You told a story to "rationalize my statement" and then ask me how my story is not rational? seems to me if you found it completely rational then there would be no need to rationalize my statement. I assert it's not rational to you because it's something I say is above and beyond myself. You want to rationalize it to fit into some kind of human mind over matter box. I say it's fine and I understand.

cold turkey can be done. Still after thought and consideration. Normally not on a whim and even then it requires huge will power.

I noticed you haven't asked anything about cursing. I was once fbomb every other word. I'm retired infantry, and a construction worker to boot. I have said maybe 3 curse words in more than a year. One of those was in a dream and I still felt dirty. I never decided to stop cursing every other word it just happened. I don't know how free you are with your speech but I would challenge you or anyone else to just stop cursing. Cursing for most is deep rooted, almost like a reflex of the tongue. Maybe this will better demonstrate the new nature that I'm speaking of. Good luck should you take up the challenge.

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I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Lol yeah all is well and welcome to WWGHA. I just hope the creator of the thread isn’t mad about us speaking in his thread. I am sure the mods can create a new thread if it's necessary.

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I Loved the bars. Clubs more than bars though. I was a dancer... lol. I always thought I would even own a bar/club someday. Now, I wouldn't want to be the fuel for the fire. what happens at those clubs is just... sick!

What is sick about goings on in clubs? I assume you mean everyday legal goings on? Not rape in the bathroom, or people slipping things in other peoples drinks, or other criminal acts.I Personally couldn't stand the pretentiousness in clubs. I felt like everyone there was pretending to be something they weren't and did everything in their power to be someone who isn’t them. Like I was back in a high school dance surrounded by people trying to be cool or sexy or what have you.

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Honestly there was no dramatic reason to start feeling the way I did.

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I guess it all started because I started to study the Bible.

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This was an overnight change in me.

Would it be fair for me to ask if you started to study the bible and found faith in God? Then that faith and the requirements thereof lead you to change? I am fine with you claiming this was an overnight change or God spoke to you and you just 180ed your lifestyle. I wasn’t there and this is your story so what do I know? But I can't grasp how it is not rational that you obviously found something in your bible studies that lead you to change your views and activities. I picked the quotes above because they don’t fit in the picture you have painted. From what I have read so far you were Keith Richarding (The Rolling Stones!) all night long then woke up one day and where a whole new person. The above quotes lead me to think you found something in your reading/studying and eventually had a change of view. No dramatic event need for that.

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cold turkey can be done. Still after thought and consideration. Normally not on a whim and even then it requires huge will power.

If you studied the bible and spoke with some Mormons then claimed that made a change how did you change on a whim? Perhaps it was a quick change but it sounds to me that there were some very reasonable events and even an amount of time this change built up to. Even if that amount of time was you read one passage in the bible and something clicked.

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I noticed you haven't asked anything about cursing.

I am far from offended by cursing. In fact the f word is the most useful adjective I can think of.

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I'm retired infantry

Thank you for your service.

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I don't know how free you are with your speech but I would challenge you or anyone else to just stop cursing. Cursing for most is deep rooted, almost like a reflex of the tongue. Maybe this will better demonstrate the new nature that I'm speaking of. Good luck should you take up the challenge.

I don’t live with my kids but when I get to see them or talk to them I don’t curse around them. I am pretty good about it but yes it is challenging. This is only temporary and I realize to completely stop would be a whole different challenge all together.

I, like G-Roll, am not offended in the slightest by "cursing" truth be told, I dont even know what it is. I see it as a list of words that people have been brainwashed into being offended by. After all a word is simply a representation of an idea or a definition. In order for the "curse word" to be offensive, the meaning would have to be offensive and I have a hard time calling ideas or meanings offensive in and of themselves.

For example, the word 'shit' typically means feces. If shit is offensive then feces is too. Or 'shit' can be used as 'shucks' (whatever the hell that means). In order for that version of 'shit' to be offensive, so would shucks. "Curse words" are just another tool used to make you feel immoral, a tool used to control you.

Now, knowing that some people are offended by such language I dont use it around my daughter because I dont want her to use it around those who are easily controlled and offended. But I see no reasonable reason not to other than that.

^^^Also, what we who speak English call curse words are often just the common terms that Germanic peoples used for things that were made into lower class words after the Norman Conquest. When the French invaded, they made their language the upper class way to speak. Most of the polite terms in English come from French by way of Latin and some Greek. The common words are Germanic. Curse words are Germanic, because that is how the conquered people spoke.

That does not mean that we should all go around saying "sh!t" and "eff you" to grandma and grandpa at the Christmas dinner table. It has been almost a thousand years since 1066, and words do have meanings, even if the meanings are made up.

I recommend that people use curse words sparingly to add spice to conversation and to save them for situations that really deserve them. After all, if every woman who cuts you off in traffic is a beeyatch, then we have to invent an entirely new word for real b!tches like Margaret Thatcher, Barbara Bush, Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter.

I'll try to not make this a drive posting. I will answer questions If you wish to ask. However, I will only ignore hateful statements. I say this because Justin seemed to have gotten lots of those. There is no way to address half the things that were said to him.

I would also like to point out that "Debunk" means that you have provided evidence to prove something wrong. NOT you gave your hateful opinion and therefore a matter is debunked.

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I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

My wife was healed of a life threatening heart condition. Both of these were conditions that would have required surgery to repair. If we could have afforded it. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's before and after condition is documented by a heart specialist. Unless Tums is a Treatment for GIRD or a cardio gram is a heart treatment then there was no treatment in either case. We couldn't afford that either.

<medical transcriptionist hat>I'm not aware of GERD requiring surgery, unless you also have a hiatus hernia. Usually it responds well to H2 receptor antagonists, proton pump inhibitors, and lifestyle changes:

- Cut down on deep-fried foods, caffeine, alcohol and carbohydrates, and eat a bit more lean protein (this helps strengthen the valve at the GE junction, keeping stomach acid in the stomach and out of the throat.

- Elevate the head of the bed a few inches, as lying flat exacerbates nighttime attacks.</medical transcriptionist hat>

I had a very bad case of GERD a little over a decade ago, documented on a barium ES&D. I got it under control around 2002-2003 and haven't had any problems since. No prayers were involved.

There may be different treatments now, but my husband had surgery for GERD some 20 years ago. I don't recall any hernia involved, just a valve which was not keeping stomach acid in the stomach. The surgery was very effective, and he has had no problem since. That was a while ago, though.

Usually it responds well to H2 receptor antagonists, proton pump inhibitors, and lifestyle changes:

- Cut down on deep-fried foods, caffeine, alcohol and carbohydrates, and eat a bit more lean protein (this helps strengthen the valve at the GE junction, keeping stomach acid in the stomach and out of the throat.

- Elevate the head of the bed a few inches, as lying flat exacerbates nighttime attacks.</medical transcriptionist hat>

I had a very bad case of GERD a little over a decade ago, documented on a barium ES&D. I got it under control around 2002-2003 and haven't had any problems since. No prayers were involved.

Cutting back greatly on carbohydrates, especially sugars, was the best approach for my hiatal hernia. Eat carbs only when necessarily and eat them sparingly. Also, avoid eating within 3 hours before going to bed. Leafy green salads are great.

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John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

If God loves us and wants us to come to Him why wouldn't He tell us what He wants?

I have no idea but He contradicts Himself on many occasions and for every Christian there is a different understanding of each verse of the Bible.

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The Bible was written in 66 books, over more than 1500 years, by 40+ writers the majority of these never met.

No, but they had access to each other’s manuscripts, didn’t they – See how the Gospels are drawn from Mark.

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We have lots of evidence to support all of these claims,

I think few dispute how many books there are in the Bible, except perhaps the Catlix who are not Christians and stick in the Apocrypha.

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The Bible does something here that a dozen professors, all in the same room, over the course of 1 year, have trouble doing.

Have you made a point about the Professors? If so, I have missed it.

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RatherWhether you believe [in what is written in] The Bible or not is a side issue. Even if you believe there are a few contradictions, they are still less than we should expect IF it was written by man alone.

You have already said the books were written by 40+ authors[1], i.e. “men” or “written by man”

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some of the abstract concepts go so deep I have trouble thinking any man wrote them.

No. You probably have the same ideas as us – the people who wrote them were probably not thinking clearly and had difficulty with concepts

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These facts alone, supported by history, are amazing.

The ratio of “facts” to assumptions and myths is pretty low. And to be honest, apart from the number of books in the Bible, you haven't given any "facts".

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Throw in some completed, verifiable, prophesy

Foretelling the future is a mug’s game – I see no prophecies, but I see a lot of words tortured until they confess what the torturer wants to hear.

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and How can you not believe?

I don’t accept “magic” as an explanation for anything. Mental illness was as common in Judea as it is today. Superstition rides just as high.

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How has God effected your life?

With my wife, friends, and family as witnesses, He changed me! I have been given a whole new nature. things like swearing, bar hopping, drinking, and woman chasing were enjoyable activities to me at one time. Now, and just about overnight, none of these are things I even want to do. I tried many times to stop doing these things but it was never in my own power to do them. Only God can give a new nature!

OK, If you stopped worshipping God, would you revert or have you simply learned how to behave?

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Why do you think it is important for others to believe?

You have been created by an almighty powerful being. He should receive Honor and respect.

Important if true… but it isn’t.

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The Bible teaches that one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

You could be neutral… if there is a God, He will forgive you, it is His job.

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Are there any miracles or personal experiences that you have seen, either in your life or in the lives of others, that you would like to share?

I was personally healed of GIRD. My wife was healed of a heart condition. Both of these were conditions that required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist.

Now I believe that the cure was effected by Ai Tupua'i the Polynesian goddess of healing & of war. She is famous for doing such things. I cannot see that it is possible that your god, Yahweh, would ever do such a thing. You show me in the Bible where Yahweh cures any woman with heart disease or infirmity!

Yet we know from the stories of Ai Tupua'I told by our forefathers that she does this.

Yes, it's pretty much what you quoted. A group of professors couldn't write something in one year, one only one subject, that works so well together even if they had been side by side.

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No. You probably have the same ideas as us – the people who wrote them were probably not thinkingclearly and had difficulty with concepts

I clearly don't have the same ideas as you. I may also suspect any Christian you heard before? Didn't you ask/accuse me of being some kind of prophet of God? You said I seem to be against the grain of accepted doctrine at every turn. (paraphrasing)

Surface concepts were not what I was talking about anyway.

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OK, If you stopped worshipping God, would you revert or have you simply learned how to behave?

There is no stop. If you are a son of God You will never stop. They only go out from us to show they were never really of us

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You could be neutral… if there is a God, He will forgive you, it is His job.

if that's your plan, I do pray the best, but you may want to keep this in mind.Mat12:30"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me.

Knowing that angels are neither male nor female I have none the less recently been looking into the idea that satan is actually a woman. If he has no gender referring to him as "he" is neither right nor wrong. the link is in how he presents himself around the world. This female goddess of war who presents herself as a dragon is another step in that direction.To answer your question though. I have found though study that all other religions have a common thread. They ALL teach something opposite of God's word. I suppose for you though that's a coincidence?

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I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Yes, it's pretty much what you quoted. A group of professors couldn't write something in one year, one only one subject, that works so well together even if they had been side by side.

In your opinion, and without your thinking about any of the better novels, philosophers and academic papers…

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I clearly don't have the same ideas as you. I may also suspect any Christian you heard before? Didn't you ask/accuse me of being some kind of prophet of God? (paraphrasing)

Poor paraphrasing, I suggested that you saw yourself as a Prophet of God. I have marked further evidence with an asterisk.

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OK, If you stopped worshipping God, would you revert or have you simply learned how to behave?

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There is no stop. If you are a son of God You will never stop. They only go out from us to show they were never really of us *

Which is an answer, but not the answer to the question.

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You could be neutral… if there is a God, He will forgive you, it is His job.

if that's your plan, I do pray the best, but you may want to keep this in mind.Mat12:30"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me.

Of course that, "No True Scotsman" fallacy is only important if it is true. For it to be true, there would have to be a deity. The thing is, you really has no idea if Matthew is simply saying this without anything to back it up. Same goes for promises of heaven or hell.

Knowing that angels are neither male nor female I have none the less recently been looking into the idea that satan is actually a woman. If he has no gender referring to him as "he" is neither right nor wrong. the link is in how he presents himself around the world.[/quote]Wonder no more: Jesus himself says Satan is male and Jesus would know all the angels, wouldn’t He? Jesus would not be fooled no matter how the Devil tried to disguise himself.

M't:4:5: Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,M't:4:6: And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.M't:4:7: Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

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To answer your question though. I have found though study that all other religions have a common thread. They ALL teach something opposite of God's word. I suppose for you though that's a coincidence?

No, it confirms that I am correct in my knowledge that there are no gods and that gods are made by mankind and are but our ignorance writ large and lain out before us.

You see, a member of any of the world’s religions could say exactly the same as you and with just as much justification.

We know this much: L Ron Hubbard is alleged to have said, “If you want to make real money, create a religion.” Well, if he did say that, it worked for him.

We also know that to be great in any field you have to have a theory, a technique, a product, etc. that differs slightly from all other theories, techniques, products, etc.

I am reminded of the Christian missionary to the Eskimo who had to translate the Eskimo version of the the miracle of Cana of Galilee as the water turning into blubber; the 8th verse of the 5th chapter of the First Epistle of St. Peter ran: ‘Your adversary the devil, as a roaring Polar bear walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.’ And in the same way ‘A land flowing with milk and honey’ became ‘A land flowing with whale’s blubber,’ as the Eskimo had no concept of these things. http://www.futilitycloset.com/2013/04/28/cold-faith/

I always thought that this was short-sighted of God who should have sent another Son to the Eskimos.

I have no doubt that you cope reasonably well with life in general, but it does seem that when you enter “god-mode” the intellect goes out the window.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

OK, If you stopped worshipping God, would you revert or have you simply learned how to behave?

There is no stop. If you are a son of God You will never stop. They only go out from us to show they were never really of us

Excuse me, but I call complete unmitigated bullshit here. I was born and raised in a devout RC family, never doubted my faith and convictions all through my childhood and teenage years. Seriously contemplated priesthood as a young adult, and even kept my RC morals into college, refraining from sex with my then-girlfriend, now wife of 18.5 years (when she wanted it, repeatedly).

I took college courses in history (and other stuff) that gradually made me think criticaly about, then doubt, my faith. After many years of mental struggle, I eventually called myself atheist.

Your remark disparages the faith of my family and the convictions with which I was brought up. Regardless of how I feel about it, you have no right to do so.

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Organized religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash the kneecaps of anyone who doesn't show proper deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

Ah, Boots, Habinger assure me that you were never really "of the faith". Oh, you might have thought you were... but you were not.

Harbinger was "of the faith" and then lapsed, proving that he never was "of the faith". But now he is "of the faith" and will remain like that until he lapses again and shows that he has never been "of the faith" but if he is contrite, Jesus will forgive him and then he can be "born again" and then start to be "of the faith."

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Are you saying that people can't truly believe in a religion and then decide that they made a mistake and change their minds? Surely, harbinger, you did not expect me to stay a JW all my life, believing in stuff that is blatantly not true?

At the same time, since I was a raised in the religion as a child, before I started really questioning it, I had no reason not to believe it. We were told we were right. So we were. And every religion has the same exact problems as the JW's: a lot of personal subjective experiences but no real evidence that it is true.

And again, there is the example of my late brother, who got into the JW's even more as I got farther away from them. You don't refuse medical treatment based on the teaching of a religion you think is false. He was sincere, but in my opinion, sincerely wrong.