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HUG - here for all audio enthusiasts

The Harbeth User Group is the primary channel for public communication with Harbeth's HQ. If you have a 'scientific mind' and are curious about how the ear works, how it can lead us to make the right - and wrong - audio equipment decisions, and about the technical ins and outs of audio equipment, how it's designed and what choices the designer makes, then the factual Science of Audio sub-forum area of HUG is your place. The objective methods of comparing audio equipment under controlled conditions has been thoroughly examined here on HUG and elsewhere and should be accessible to non-experts and able to be tried-out at home without deep technical knowledge. From a design perspective, today's award winning Harbeths could not have been designed any other way.

Alternatively, if you just like chatting about audio and subjectivity rules for you, then the Subjective Soundings area is you. If you are quite set in your subjectivity, then HUG is likely to be a bit too fact based for you, as many of the contributors have maximised their pleasure in home music reproduction by allowing their head to rule their heart. If upon examination we think that Posts are better suited to one sub-forum than than the other, they will be redirected during Moderation, which is applied throughout the site.

Questions and Posts about, for example, 'does amplifier A sounds better than amplifier B' or 'which speaker stands or cables are best' are suitable for the Subjective Soundings area only, although HUG is really not the best place to have these sort of purely subjective airings.

The Moderators' decision is final in all matters and Harbeth does not necessarily agree with the contents of any member contributions, especially in the Subjective Soundings area, and has no control over external content.

If there is an urge to open and modify what left the factory in guaranteed working order there are potential consequences of which you should be aware:

We would need to review the Warranty situation. Any (extremely rare) Warranty claims need to be validated by an authorised Harbeth dealer. If there is evidence that the user has opened and/or attempted to modify and/or damaged the speakers through misuse or neglect then the Warranty coverage is at risk. This is the same as returning your car to an authorised dealer for inspection if want to make a claim. It's only fair and reasonable.

You should be vigilant when buying used (second-hand). You never know what modifications the user has been tempted into. We only offer Warranty to the first owner subject to various T's and C's.

Thank you for your understanding. I do my very, very best when designing Harbeth speakers to squeeze every gramme of performance and to save you wasting time and money chasing modifications.

In subsequent dialogue with the user we have been told that our position is unreasonable. However, we are an ISO9001 registered business (and have been for several years) and we take our responsibility of QC very seriously. In the extremely rare situation where after care is needed, we must be able to investigate and identify what went wrong - and learn from the experience. This means that we require that the loudspeaker is attended to by an qualified and Authorised Harbeth outlet with whom we can, in advance, discuss the dismantling with.

To reiterate our position: In the interests of long term Quality Management we ask you not to open your sealed Harbeth speaker and certainly not to make any adjustments or modifications. After care is a job for an Authorised specialist unless you receive specific, one-on-one individual instructions from an accredited Harbeth representative. Following that approved route, there will be no impact on your Warranty.

Thank you for helping us to keep the QC loop closed and to offer a first class product that should last a lifetime with sensible use.

In my opinion, Harbeth is on solid legal ground here. A "no unauthorized modifications" precondition to the receipt of warranty service is a standard condition. A warranty is a form of contract, and as such can impose reasonable conditions on the purchaser as part of the overall contract of sale. I've never heard of one of these being successfully challenged - if anyone knows otherwise, please send me the case: I'd be most interested in reading it.

Comment

the first owner assuming that the owner registers the speaker in the original country that we sold them into e.g. if Harbeth UK sold them to country A but the end user is in country B then they cannot be Registered for Warranty

they are registered within 7 days of purchase

they were manufactured no more than 180 days prior to Registration

all Registration information is completed correctly, truthfully and in full. Information about the dealer's name, sales ticket number etc. will be validated as correct

the speaker has not been opened or modified in any way

all external and internal unique identifying marks (incl. serial numbers) are intact, legible and are valid and true

the speakers were purchased through a current Official Harbeth Retailer listed on the Harbeth website at the date of purchase.

Note: Registrations are not automatically validated at the point of Registration and even though you may appear to complete the Registration process, Warranty is only activated upon our individual inspection and cross-check with sales and production records.

If the original ex-Harbeth serial numbers have been tampered with in any way neither Harbeth UK nor any of its agents or distributors can offer any Warranty.

Other T's and C's apply.

Comment

Are authorized dealers aware the 180 day manufacturing warranty requirement? Of all the bullet points listed this is the only one that isn't in the buyer's control unless he's aware of this requirement before making the purchase.

{Moderator's comment: it's a little hard to believe that new stock would remain unsold in the sales pipeline six months after manufacture.}

Comment

Elas...That"s not very likely to happen. Most demo boxes are sold in open cartons (mine in a box with a sealing from another speaker manufacturer) by dealers stating they had them tested. For the consumer it''s impossible to know how old these boxes are. Wish Harbeth had a more realistic approach to this problem.

{Moaderator's comment: and what do you suggest bearing in mind that the essence of any manufacturer's Warranty is to reassure the consumer that the goods will perform exactly as they left the factory for the period of the Warranty?}

Comment

Harbeth's position on this is entirely reasonable. I disagree with the requirement to register the product within 7 days of purchase for the warranty to be valid. It is more common today to honor a warranty from the time the product is purchased whether or not the warranty registration was submitted. When service is provided so long as the customer shows proof of purchase and the purchase date shows that the product is within its warranty period.

That said, Harbeth is of course free to make any policy they wish.

Comment

Elas...That"s not very likely to happen. Most demo boxes are sold in open cartons (mine in a box with a sealing from another speaker manufacturer) by dealers stating they had them tested. For the consumer it''s impossible to know how old these boxes are. Wish Harbeth had a more realistic approach to this problem.

{Moaderator's comment: and what do you suggest bearing in mind that the essence of any manufacturer's Warranty is to reassure the consumer that the goods will perform exactly as they left the factory for the period of the Warranty?}

As a Custumer from Harbeth you want to be sure that the speakers are manufactured within the three months period after purchasing these speakers Well just print a date on the back that will be enough and stops Dealers from selling you older or demo speakers .

{mModerator's comment .... six months not three months.}

Comment

We are here now just talking about the EXTENSION of 2 YEAR WARRANTY TO 3 YEARS? from Harbeth, I presume?
The normal 1 year warranty after buying an unopened Harbeth set is still valid all the times, I presume?

I know from own experience(C7ES-3) that a Harbeth distributor may occasionally have unopened stock from an earlier productiondate than 6 month ago. (is not what I wrote > edited by the moderator?)

So I think the "after max six month productiondate extended Harbeth warranty" is not entirely fair in those cases.
Should the distributor and the dealers provide an extra warranty of their own? or even do the normal 2 year warranty ?

Comment

From a legally point of view In my opinion the Harbeth warranty does not apply in several countries outside the UK. As soon as I buy a product here in Holland-It doesn"t matter if this is a Dutch made product or a foreign product-the Dutch consumer laws are valid from the day the products are purchased. These consumer right law is somewhat different from what Harbeth is stating in their warranty

But as I said earlier a sticker with the date of production on the back of the speakers and the problem is dealt with.

Comment

From a legally point of view In my opinion the Harbeth warranty does not apply in several countries outside the UK. As soon as I buy a product here in Holland-It doesn"t matter if this is a Dutch made product or a foreign product-the Dutch consumer laws are valid from the day the products are purchased. These consumer right law is somewhat different from what Harbeth is stating in their warranty

It's not clear whether you're speaking to the length of the warranty or to the prohibition on unauthorized modifications. Those are two quite distinct issues. It's true that consumer protection legislation in various jurisdictions (including states and provinces in North America) may confer on the purchaser certain rights irrespective of what the warranty says. However, I would be surprised if those rights survived the purchaser's unauthorized modification of the product.

Comment

OK so just to be sure > is following quote from the Harbethsite/aftersalespage still valid?:

"Harbeth loudspeakers are precision instruments that are thoughtfully designed and carefully assembled and tested. Providing that they are not overdriven they will last indefinitely. Our official UK Warranty is 12 months from date of first purchase to the first, original owner providing that the speakers have been treated with respect, and operated within their rated specification. The original purchaser can extended his/her Warranty FOC to 36 month from date of manufacture upon completion of the on-line Warranty registration".

Comment

I think the term "UK warranty" may be introducing a degree of confusion.

I would not want to opine on Dutch law or the law of any jurisdiction other than my own, but as I said above, there may be rights granted by legislation in each jurisdiction that either modify, or apply regardless of, the terms of a warranty. That includes the UK, presumably - but those are statutory rights, not terms of a warranty that will apply regardless of where the purchaser is located.

It's not uncommon in a warranty document to have language that recognizes that the buyer may have additional statutory rights over and above the warranty terms, and which may affect those terms.

As a matter of how Harbeth applies and interprets its own warranty language (apart from statutory considerations) it is free to do as likes subject to its application and interpretation being reasonable as a matter of contract.

(Disclaimer: this is not legal advice or opinion.)

Comment

It occurs to me that there is a potential consequence to dating warranty coverage from date of manufacture that Harbeth may not intend, which is that it may serve as a disincentive to a dealer or distributor actually stocking Harbeth product.

Really, the way the consumer obtains maximum protection is if the dealer takes in the order, gets it fulfilled quickly by the distributor (assuming non-UK), who in turn has hopefully received product very recently - the more recently, the better - from Harbeth UK.

Also, is it really fair to the consumer that the amount of warranty available to him/her is dependent on how long a dealer or distributor has had the product in stock? The buyer has no control over this and may not even be aware of it at the time of purchase.

Comment

OK so just to be sure > is following quote from the Harbethsite/aftersales page still valid?:

"Harbeth loudspeakers are precision instruments that are thoughtfully designed and carefully assembled and tested. Providing that they are not overdriven they will last indefinitely. Our official UK Warranty is 12 months from date of first purchase to the first, original owner providing that the speakers have been treated with respect, and operated within their rated specification. The original purchaser can extended his/her Warranty FOC to 36 month from date of manufacture upon completion of the on-line Warranty registration".