Oldbob, your persistence to create (through a public forum) a revolutionary movement inside DC, it might have exactly the opposite results. As Karma Dorje wrote "it drives away far more people than the alleged high cost of being a DC member". My personal understanding through practice is that at the right moment everything manifests spontaneously. If it does not manifest positively, then there is not yet enough accumulation of merits.

PS. If I believed in revolution, then I would be out in the streets fighting right now...

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

I, for one, believe that the management issues that Oldbob has raised are very much in need of addressing. I know there are others who feel the same, but at the same time I don't see any point in talking about such things here, not anymore, at least. It is rather clear that the majority of posters at DW aren't interested, don't want to talk about such things or plainly disagree with Oldbob. More troublingly, some people appear to horribly misconstrue what Oldbob is saying.

He isn't damning the DC by comparing it to other sanghas, for one. I don't think Robert feels that the DC is faring worse than other sanghas are - actually, if I read him correctly, he suggests that we're doing rather fine when compared to other such institutions. What Oldbob is trying to say is that ChNN's teachings deserve so much better than 'fine'.

The truth is, the way Buddhist institutions (the DC included) are being run in the West may be all in all both functional and perfectly acceptable in the West - which is to say, to the west of the Wall (although I'm not quite sure if the austerity-plagued South would fully agree these days - and I'm afraid more and more people might be already starting to question the status quo in the better off parts of the Old World as well). Eastern Europe is quite another matter - not to speak of Russia, most of Asia and virtually all of Africa and South America. And ChNN does have students all over the globe.

And the bad things that have come, they're not going to go away. We're going down, down, down. It may be high time we rethought the way things are managed and organised - before we find we've lost something vital.

Dronma wrote:My personal understanding through practice is that at the right moment everything manifests spontaneously. If it does not manifest positively, then there is not yet enough accumulation of merits.

What do you exactly mean by that, Dronma?

How would anything ever manifest if nothing ever were done?

If things aren't 'manifesting positively', are we to sit and do nothing but wait - even if we do contribute to what is happening and could help change things for the better?

Dronma wrote:If I believed in revolution, then I would be out in the streets fighting right now...

As far as the management of the DC goes, Robert isn't talking of any revolution whatsoever, in any sense of the word. The term really doesn't apply here at all.

Btw, ChNN uses the word 'revolution' in a very narrow sense, doesn't he?

When he says 'revolution', he doesn't mean 'radical change'. There is no more radical change than the one which happens to the practitioners on the path. When ChNN speaks of revolution, he always illustrates it with what the Chinese Maoists have done to Tibetans and the Tibetan culture - in particular, with what they did to them during the so-called 'Cultural Revolution'. In other words, ChNN's 'revolution' means 'totally ruthless and violent imposition of a way of life to those who do not want it at all'. It doesn't mean 'profound changes to the status quo'.

I find it rather tragic that Robert's desire to help spread ChNN's teachnigs has created such tensions within the sangha. That certainly hasn't been his intention. It worries me deeply, too, that what he wrote produced so strong emotions.

In the luminosity beyond any characteristic what-so-ever there is no question of dualistic perceptions dividing anything into this and that. Everything IS perfect just as it is.

The Dzogchen Community is in a period of transition and while we still have the opportunity to bring our concerns to our precious Master (may he live in good health forever) – perhaps it is wise and prudent that we do so.

There are real issues facing the Dzogchen Community that need to be addressed by our precious Master and by the greater Dzogchen Community.

1. Who legally and morally owns the most precious Longsal Terma Teachings of ChNNR? These may be two different questions. Are the practices contained in the Collected Works part of the world’s cultural heritage, or are they the possession of one individual or legal entity?

2. How will access to these precious Teachings be controlled after the passing of ChNNR?

3. Who will provide the Direct Introduction? Will there still be a World Wide Transmission? Can DI from other Masters / other traditions count as DI in the permission /access structure of the DC?

4. Who will provide the permissions to have access to the transcripts and recorded media? How will these permissions, and this access, be provided? What purpose do these permissions serve, and are they really needed, in the age of “everything on the web?”

5. Who will provide the permissions to actually do the practices? How will these permissions be provided? What purpose do these permissions serve, and are they really needed, in the context of the Ven. Longchenpa / Ven. Jigme Lingpa, permissions: permissions given in a dream / vision?

6. Who will provide instruction in the various practices? How will this be controlled? What purpose does this control have, and is it really needed, in the context of small groups meeting on the web, and in person, to read the transcripts, to listen and watch the recorded media, and to practice together?

The power people who are currently advising Rinpoche have their viewpoints.

I am not judging these viewpoints as good or bad.

Perhaps other viewpoints need to be heard.

The heart of the matter is that these most precious Teachings, leading to realization in one lifetime, need to be preserved in the luminous hearts of practitioners, who accomplish the Teachings.

I think you are asking a lot of important questions. Questions that would never have arisen in old Tibet but do indeed, for better or worse, arise in the world that we currently live in.

I have no answers and not even any ideas. The question i have for you is: is this the most appropriate place to ask those questions? Of course, there aresome DC people who read these pages but i wonder if the discussion would not be most appropriate in a DC forum where more people who are directly involved could participate.

Isn't there a DC blog that was started some time ago for members? If you want to discuss such things in a public forum, that might be the place.

I have heard - or read perhaps? - that Rinpoche has concerns that after he is gone, DC will be divided into many factions all fighting with each other, not unlike what happened after the Buddha passed away. I can understand that concern and your questions here only highlight that possibility. Transitions are not easy, especially in today's world. I worry too and i am not anywhere, anywhere, anywhere near as involved as others are and have been.

I appreciate your effort to keep clarifying the issues involved so people can understand what may occur.

I love Rinpoche and want him to be as strong and healthy as possible for as long as possible. And he and you and everyone involved is correct, i think, in your efforts to be as prepared as possible for the future. Its funny what we remember - or don't remember. I don't remember hearing anything about a "new dzogchen" from KY but as you say, it was the middle of the night here too and towards the end of the YL retreat i found myself drifting off a bit here and there so maybe it was as you say. I don't really know.

For my own peace of mind, and only my own i must say, I would like to hear a bit more from KY or Rinpoche about how they see the transition. Rinpoche's, and at the moment secondarily, KY's, intentions are what is most important, not our worries. If ever there was a person with an open heart, it is Rinpoche. That is not my concern at all.

MalaBeads wrote:I have heard - or read perhaps? - that Rinpoche has concerns that after he is gone, DC will be divided into many factions all fighting with each other, not unlike what happened after the Buddha passed away. I can understand that concern and your questions here only highlight that possibility. Transitions are not easy, especially in today's world. I worry too and i am not anywhere, anywhere, anywhere near as involved as others are and have been.

It is what I have also heard from Rinpoche. That's why he repeats so often that the answer to our problems is not revolution, but evolution! That's why I wrote already that all positive things manifest spontaneously, through our own accumulation of merits - personally and collectively. So, instead of discussing imaginary conspiracies, let's concentrate more in real practice.

I am more optimistic than oldbob and a few other people here. Dzogchen does not vanish when a perfect teacher (like ChNN Rinpoche) stops teaching it. Authentic transmission will always be here and now (whenever and wherever it is the right place and right time). Trying to put the transmission in little boxes for protecting it, possibly this will cause more harm than benefit. Surely, ChNN Rinpoche is a unique teacher, and when he'll stop teaching then nothing will be the same anymore. But impermanence is the dominant rule of our dimension, isn't it? Everything is changing all the time, but the state of Dzogchen is not depended on those changes. So, I do not worry at all.

MalaBeads wrote:Rinpoche's, and at the moment secondarily, KY's, intentions are what is most important, not our worries. If ever there was a person with an open heart, it is Rinpoche. That is not my concern at all.

Exactly!

PS. And yes, this is not the right place for such questions!

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

When I have seen for the first time "My Reincarnation" at cinema, at the end, someone asked:"Do you want to make publicity to your community and teacher, no?"Jennifer Fox gave a very intelligent response, something like:"I have presented the relation between my Teacher and his son very open and without hiding anything.Usually when people are making publicity, they are trying to exagerate pleasant things and are trying to hide unpleasant things."

I think this is the situation of this thread, also.

If someone thinks that there exists such sangha without problems and is turned back by Bob's words, maybe that person is not enough mature.In my opinion, a difference between one sangha and another could be only if they accept (or not) their problems and if they are working (or not) to solve them.As long as we are deluded (and we are all deluded until Total Realization), there could be no perfect sangha.But we can collaborate to improve things.

What I like in DC is that they are not trying to make publicity or to show things in a way to just attract people.

The historical reasons for secrecy in the Vajrayana, as very well explained in the referenced thread, have been overtaken by events, when it comes to the Vajrayana as taught from within the Dzogchen perspective of the Dzogchen Community.

To clarify this secrecy / rules of access to the teachings, I think it would be helpful to review the current state of the secrecy hierarchy as relates to members, non-members, and the Keepers of the Media Archives, in the Dzogchen Community. Please correct me if I have made any mistakes. This is how it is to the best of my knowledge.

Anyone walking into any DC retreat for the first time, whether member or non-member, is given full access to the specific teachings (including vajra dance and yantra yoga, including kumbaka and the pranayamas) of that retreat, as well as the CD of that retreat. This is true whether or not they are present, or totally distracted, at the DI and lungs of that retreat.

The only retreats where this differed, were the big Yangtig (dark retreat), retreat, and the big Togyal retreat. Yangtig and Togyal were also taught in other normal retreats, but sometimes to small groups. For these two big retreats, everyone had to write to ChNNR and request permission to attend. ChNNR has stated that everyone who asked, received permission.

Only those who physically attended these retreats, and whose names are on the official list of attendees, can obtain a copy of the CDs.

To buy restricted items from the SSI web store you must be a member.

Anyone who is interested, member or non-member can listen to (and record) the unrestricted webcasts.

Only members can listen to, and record, the unrestricted webcast replays, the restricted webcasts, and the restricted webcast replays.

Anyone who is a member can listen to any of the dozen or so retreat replays posted on the replay website.

To the best of my knowledge, non-members who attest that they listened to a non-restricted webcast, or attended any retreat, can buy the CD for that retreat.

Members who attest that they listened to any webcast, or attended any retreat, can buy the CDs for that retreat.

Anyone having a user name and password for the media archive, can access ANY, of the over 500 retreat recordings, of the collected works, including the several hundred retreats recorded on HD videos.

To become a member you have to pay your membership fee. In some places this is paid by the month. The membership fees, and fee structures, vary from place to place, and from time to time.

In many places, Yantra Yoga (the traditional tsa lung), including the pranayamas (now called “Breathing”) is taught by disciples of ChNNR who are both in, and are not in, the SMS hierarchy. This has now gravitated to yoga centers such as Esalen Institute and Kripalu where these are taught without receiving DI or any traditional transmission. This is also being done in Russia. Some Russians are advertising a 12 day, Yantra vacation for 1125 euros plus transportation.

Note – IMPORTANT – It is suggested that you choose your teachers very VERY carefully! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrul Rinpoche's advice about following a spiritual friend:

Just as the trunk of an ordinary treeLying in the forest of the Malaya mountainsAbsorbs the perfume of sandal from the moist leaves and branchesSo you become to resemble whomever you follow.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Some “high” teachings which traditionally required a transmission of DI, and wang / lung / tri are now being taught by disciples of ChNNR who are both within and without of the SMS hierarchy. These include, dream yoga, rushen, purification of the 6 lokas, the 7th lojang, the 21 semzin, Mandarava long life practice, Thugthig of Jnana Dakini, Chod and advanced pranayamas, among other practices.

Anyone who pays the course fee, gets access to these teachings. Sometimes there is a requirement that the attendee has received the DI from ChNNR.

These are some ramblings on secrecy and access to the Teachings in the hierarchy of the Dzogchen Community, as relates to access to Teachings by members, non-members, and the Keepers of the Media Archive.

Perhaps equal access will address these issues.

“We are all in the same boat.”

Very nice to see Rinpoche strong and in good health, singing and enjoying the singing and dancing in Mexico!

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters. May they live long, in good health and with success in all things.

Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Thu May 09, 2013 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason:Changed text color as it was unreadable

Maybe they can publish something to Norbunet regarding the current status, and future plans, for the media archive.

My 2 cents is that it would be good to have all media (transcripts, practice materials, practice related books, CDs and DVDs) free, on line, for members. This would address the issue of equal access to the Teachings and overcome any thought of the Dzogchen Community becoming a club for the rich.

I think if the powers that be look at the small revenue from sales of CDs and DVDs, it is very clear that this small amount, would be more than offset by the hugely increased revenue from sales of memberships.

If one considers the hierarchy of "secrecy and access" as described in the post above, outside of SMS, it is only determined by payment of fees.

Of course the "live" lung is necessary (as per Rinpoche's current instruction) to get the benefit of the practices included in the media archives, "otherwise it doesn't function."

This would have to be worked out. Maybe Fabian (an expert in Tibetan language) can give the lungs. He also has excellent pronunciation.

Then members could choose what secondary practices that they wanted to study, and practice, from the entire collected works.

I believe that as a Dzogchen practitioner, this is permitted, and that being "active" in the pursuit of your spiritual path, is encouraged.

I am told that a complete list of secondary practices is currently being prepared by SSI. You can inquire about this at SSI.

Of course everything depends on what Rinpoche wants to do, and of course I support whatever he decides.

oldbob wrote:At the end of his last retreat, K. Yeshe has declared that the "Tibetan Teachings of my father" will be done by the SMS structure and that he, K. Yeshe, will be bringing out his own Teachings in his new series of retreats.

Wow really?

That's what I got out of it at 5 in the AM, in Margarita, with a little sleep, fuzzy head.

What I remember fro mthe end, is that Khyentse Yeshe said his father is in good health and so he's not going to teach and if anyone invites him they should make sure it's not about him but about what he can share with them for the DC. Hence what he teaches NOW (because he actually had a very different approach, or style, when he started and then also changed along the way) is the approach like in Kiev or the Yeshe Lama. He also advised everyone on studying SMS and this is because studying SMS is crucial in bringing forth real understanding, and this last I speak from my own experience - and it does not mean I am very fond of SMS... I am fond of Guruyoga and I see SMS from that perspective, not the other way round.

Regarding the archives, I think you are totally mistaken.As an example, a lot of people are working on looking through archives, Mirrors and elsewhere for every Rinpoche's word on vajra dance, because there's a lack of any published commentary and so on and everybody has to work on their own on courses. They're well back before 2000. Think a little, everything requires a lot of work to be done to just get anything done and there is really no limit to participation in that work. Everybody has a good intention, devotion and willingness - that's what I see around myself. This does not mean that there are no problems. There may be always some problems where there is collaboration.

Nice to learn more of what K Yeshe intends, but it sure would be nice to find a recording of the last day of this last retreat so that a transcript could be made in Italian and English.

Nice you are seeing SMS from the perspective of of Guruyoga. Perhaps it is good to see everything like this.

Nice to hear that people are researching the information on the Vajra Dance. Maybe this could be released in stages, on line, for free, as it is an evolving project, that would benefit many people.

I am quite sure I am totally mistaken on most things, but as to the archives, I am completely confused as to how or where I am totally mistaken. I was only making the following claims - which are true to the best of my knowledge.

1. The transcript archives exist. Somewhere in Merigar there is a file cabinet with completed transcripts for many of the retreats. It would be nice if these could be put on line for free. This can easily be done by scanning the transcripts and making OCR, corrected copies of the transcripts. This is not expensive, nor would take a lot of time. This can easily be done by crowd sourcing this work to the 2400 people attending the webcasts. Perhaps each Gar / Ling could buy a scanner and OCR software and set up a space for this project. The transcripts can be released electronically as they become available, free on line. The transcription of all the retreats which still are not transcribed, could be done in the same general way. Perhaps someone at SSI could coordinate this and communicate to the DC on Norbunet, as to current status and periodic progress.

2. The audio / video archives exist. Somewhere in the world there are 2 computers with all of the audio and video that exists for the 500 + retreats. It would be nice if these were put on line for free. I am sure that many people will contribute to this project, if asked. Since the data is already on hard drives, it is just a matter of duplicating these hard drives and sending them to a server location. With Apple / Google/ and Microsoft competing for cloud hosting, the monthly charges for this server would not be much. This can easily be researched and achieved. The hard work of getting the audio and video onto the hardrives has already been done. Perhaps the current webcast user names and passwords can be utilized. Perhaps someone at SSI could coordinate this and communicate to the DC on Norbunet, both as to current status and periodic progress.

3. The archives exist. A few "special" people have access to these archives. The appearance is that these "special" people are doing what they can to restrict equal access. I pray that I am "completely wrong" as to this restriction, but then where is the equal access after 30 years of the existence of Merigar?

Equal access means that EVERYONE (all members) could have equal access, free on line, with no differentiation between those members who have money and those who do not, and no difference between those who are "special" power people and those who are not.

The key point is that the archives exist and that rather than their publishing being a 30 year project of SSI, perhaps SSI could permit all members of the DC to collaborate and then publish the retreat archives, every so often, as a work in progress. This could include the immediate electronic publication of what is available now.

The schedule of retreat in Hotel Buena Vista is:8th -12th May 2013Tsegyalgar West retreat. The teaching will be Zhinang YeshesDronme (Tib. g.zhi-snang ye-shes sgron-me)The Wisdom light of the Base. Closed webcast.

The Lama Yangtik is made up of small inner trilogies. The Lamp of Wisdom (explaining) the Manifestations of the Base (gZhi snang ye shes sgron me) belongs to the first trilogy of the 2nd volume of the Lama Yangtik, known as the Trilogy of the Lamps (sGron me gsum) and it goes together with: (i) the Lamp Clarifying the meaning of Allegoric Examples (dPe don gsal byed sgron me) and (ii) the Lamp of the key-points of Practice (Nyams len gnad kyi sgron me).

The Lamp of Wisdom describes :1. the primordial Base2. the actual manifestations of the Base3. the way they subside4. the way they arise again after subsiding5. the way they liberate after having arisen.