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The second one is not clear but its refering to the same thing. 1 and 3 translations are clear as day to what its refering to. So we got 3 good translators stating about the same damn thing.

Now of course they where already fighting a raiton armour Raikage BUT Shi states that he belives the natural reflexes of Raikage are up with Minato's but this guys can keep up with Raikage even when he is powered up. Well actualy the only one to realy keep up was Sasuke as he can in a sense predict the future with that eye. But when Raikage whent full out not even that worked.

Keep in mind that Raikage run for some 7 meters or so before getting to Minato and he was able to notice his attack and Raikage only when he was 1 cm's from his face (2 times). If not for his teleport(a instant tech) he could not even dodge the attack. So its obvious that Raikage's reflexes are above Minato's.

No, I checked them because you didn't give me a link to check the translations and pages so I went to the official source. It's the logical thing to do.

He is talking about A at that moment. He is speaking about A's reflexes as A is using Raiton no Yoroi. Although he wasn't at full power he was still in a state comparable of that to Minato because of Raiton no Yoroi which is specifically designed to speed up neural synapses and reflexes.

Minato was fast even outside of Hiraishin, his reflexes were shown to be superior to Madara's who has Sharingan himself. The fact that he could see and react to A's movement is a testament to how good his reflexes were. Also, comparable does not mean equivalent. Minato was shown to best A and A himself states Minato was faster.

So by your logic, if Minato doesn't have Hiraishin and A has Raiton no Yoroi it would be impossible for Minato to counter? That's fine and all but if you're taking Minato's Hiraishin out of the equation surely you must take A's Raiton no Yoroi out as well. You can't take a ninja's techniques away from him and then claim he wouldn't be as good without them because the same is relevant for anyone. Without Raiton no Yoroi A is not A, without Kage Bunshin Naruto is not Naruto, without his Sharingan Kakashi is not Kakashi etc etc. It's just silly.

Originally Posted by DementedKirby

I'm still wondering about the frogs. What do you guys think? 'Cause the frogs have allegiance to both of them. Maybe they follow whoever summons them first?

Well, in any case if two people who fought were to attempt the same summon it wouldn't work. You can't summon something that has already been summoned, so I guess it would have to be a matter of who could summon faster. However that wouldn't guarantee the frog would attack as both users have an agreement.

I say they just don't even bother trying to summon as it would be pointless because both can dispose of summons with Taijutsu in Sage Mode anyways.

Re: Naruto vs Jiraiya

@Naruto_Rasengan

How can you state that when Shi stated:

Quote:

Shii: Raikage-sama's reflexes are on the same level as the late Yellow Flash...I'm impressed those three can even keep up.
But now that his body's surrounded in lightning chakra, even the Sharingan will lose sight of him...
But they're still...

There is nothing to argue over. Minat was fast but his reflexes where NEVER showed to be above Raikage. Shi clearly stated base Raikage=Base Minato.

Not let's brake it down:

Quote:

Minato was fast even outside of Hiraishin, his reflexes were shown to be superior to Madara's who has Sharingan himself.

Never. Madara tagged him so 2 times. 1 with warp and second with chains. Its not even 1 event where Minato was faster(aside from ther ST trick) or has better reaction times.

Quote:

The fact that he could see and react to A's movement is a testament to how good his reflexes were.

After Raikage run some 7 meters or so. Minat was able to notice Raikage when he was 1 cm from his face after a 7 meters dash. This is not impresive. If Anything this shows Raikage raction times at that speed is way above Minato. If Minato reacted to it after Raikage barely moved that would be a completly diferent thing.

Quote:

Minato was shown to best A and A himself states Minato was faster.

Speed =/= reaction times expecialy whent that speed is achived with a teleportation.

Quote:

So by your logic, if Minato doesn't have Hiraishin and A has Raiton no Yoroi it would be impossible for Minato to counter?

From the evidence we got that would be correct.

Quote:

That's fine and all but if you're taking Minato's Hiraishin out of the equation surely you must take A's Raiton no Yoroi out as well. You can't take a ninja's techniques away from him and then claim he wouldn't be as good without them because the same is relevant for anyone. Without Raiton no Yoroi A is not A, without Kage Bunshin Naruto is not Naruto, without his Sharingan Kakashi is not Kakashi etc etc. It's just silly.

Not when we where comparing what we where comparing. Minato's hirashis is NOT improving his reaction times like raiton armour does. The point was that Minato could only dodge that because he could move out of the way instantly as anything aside from that would be a futile atempt.
I am not taking that out and state: RAIKAGE WOULD BEAT HIM EASY. I am just stating Hirashim is not increasing his reaction times and that is valid.
As a result of this if he never had a way to instantly remove himself from a place he would have no way to dodge Raikage with his natural speed and his given reaction times that are not close to those for Raikage with his raiton armour up.

Re: Naruto vs Jiraiya

Originally Posted by xXan

The way we should look at this problem (my opinion) is that Naruto and JMan can summon the same frogs. So 2 Bunta's can be on the field of battle.

It isn't even necessary to go this way, cuz first i think that neither Naruto or Jiraya would be defeated because of the frogs. This isn't to undervalue the frogs, but i just think that they are too strong and the outcome of the battle wouldn't ever be dependent of this, so there isn't even a point in entering on this type of arguments.
Naruto strength is so big right now that, he would be battle of winning a fight against Jiraya plus an army of the most skilled frogs.

Re: Naruto vs Jiraiya

Originally Posted by jorped

It isn't even necessary to go this way, cuz first i think that neither Naruto or Jiraya would be defeated because of the frogs. This isn't to undervalue the frogs, but i just think that they are too strong and the outcome of the battle wouldn't ever be dependent of this, so there isn't even a point in entering on this type of arguments.
Naruto strength is so big right now that, he would be battle of winning a fight against Jiraya plus an army of the most skilled frogs.

The thing is JMan can't even enter sage mode if he does not have acces to Ma and Pa. Of course i don't see him entering sage mode anyway but ... well... just saying.

Re: Naruto vs Jiraiya

no trolling intended
but i think , just like bleach tournament , the final was fated ... we should have had a third tier with one match only : minato vs naruto
you guys proceed by popularity only . i swear , the moment i saw danzou beaten by garaa i stopped reading naruto tournament (until today when i was overwhelmed by curiosity)

Re: Naruto vs Jiraiya

Since the only defense i have about naruto being a tactical genius is that he is a tactical genius we are to say that he is not, please explain that fact in an at least decent manner coz im just hearing the same over and over "he is a tactical genius coz everyone understimate him" then everyone is awesome coz everyone is understimated it feels like the comment about Jiraya being weak to genjutsu coz he hasnt shown to be strong to them.

Originally Posted by xXan

You do know how absurd it is for you to defend JMan because Naruto has only a limited number of jutsus as JMan HIMSELF stated that its not the nr of jutsus that makes a shinobi great right?

Ok, u know how vague is a state that was meant to make orochimaru doubt himself and fight poorly, coz based on that we can say that

Chouji is a great shinobi since he doesnt know much jutsu and also Tenten, ino, SAKURA, and a lot of people.... AND oh yeah Kakashi is a dumb ninja since he knows a 1000 jutsu and is worthy to be a Hokage, but he is not a great ninja.

Please think a bit in my comments I am not Trolling

Im saying that jiraya has every tool to win against him coz he is not only a master in all he knows but age gave him experience, he has WAR experience so he knows what is to be in the real hard situations, also has real REAL tactical experience, he is a genius. Im seeing a lot of ways where Jman can beat naruto

Originally Posted by Infernal Stigma

"Without seals, of teleportation he is just a excellent ninja but gets killed by raikage."

Let's follow that logic:
Without Mangekyo sharingan Itachi is just an excellent shinobi but get's killed by raikage
Without raiton armour Raikage is just an excellent shinobi but get's killed by Sasuke
Without snakes Orochimaru is just an excellent shinobi that gets killed by Sasuke
Without SageMode Jiraiya is just an excellent shinobi but gets killed by Orochimaru
Without RM Naruto is just an excellent shinobi but gets killed by raikage.

If you take away what makes a shinobi a beast then they don't really become a beast.

Raikage: "I'm the fastest shinobi alive now that the 4th is not around."

If Hirashin is not speed then show us the difference in your manga. As far as Kishi is concerned, in his Manga Hirashin is speed.

Sigh..... can u at least read what im saying and give some thought about it, coz i did not said that the seals of teleportation where to be taken of him, i was saying that a lot of people can strip him of them and leave him at disadvantage, Even JMAN can do it, It would be a surprise if logically Minato could best Itachi, Even gaara has a chance to beat minato (in which ways?) Oh yeah gaara can just bury all the kunai with the same thing he did to kimimaru where he rose up a giant desert and there if minato where to teleport he would do it undergroung where there is nothing but sand, and gaara would feel it giving him a slight chance to use the desert coffin to finish him off, but that is just a way

And it seems like u are taking all that is said by kishimoto and not giving logic to it, TELEPORTATION?! is a speed ? u can be fast at doing it, but that does not make u FAST, give some brain to it. Even naruto can have a go at his dad and beat him with some of his jutsu and actually beat that "speed"

Originally Posted by benelori

Too bad those aren't facts...Naruto got to this point, because of Kyuubi, Sage Mode...and those are facts...so you saying fanboy mass, sounds much like a complaint to me...even though this time, the favored character actually has feats over his opponents

Sorry to say this but i would bury my fav characters if they are to lose, i will even go against them if they are faced with an opponent, coz i will not defend something that cant be. And yeah i think of fanboy mass, coz hey not eberyone who votes, gets here to defend its point, they just, VOTE, and some enter and say, John Dobe takes this one coz he rep off his head before he can even react. Someone made me remember that naruto is good at kawarimi, and thats a basic jutsu that everyone know, so if naruto is fast as hell, I DONT KNOW HOW, SINCE U NEED GOOOD EYES (SHARINGAN EYES, STATED BY MINATO TO KAKASHI, when he used chidori) to at least make a target, so a kawarimi could top up that speed and give everyone who has experience a good chance to react to naruto, raikage can react to all this coz his nervous system has been enhanced by his own jutsu. Coz hey EVERYONE KNOWS KAWARIMI

Originally Posted by Naruto_Rasengan

Actually, when Raikage's Raiton armor was first shown it was said that it amplies his reflexes to be on par with Minato. So yes, Minato actually was that fast.

Also, teleportation is speed. Speed=Distance/Time. Minato can travel from point A to point B faster than anyone else can.

You are kidding right? Go back as far as his fight against Haku and Zabuza, you'll find that you are horribly mistaken.

Naruto has been a strategic genius since day 1, peolpe just ignored and underestimated him during his younger years. Again, refer to as early on in the manga as Zabuza and Haku fight for evidence.

Well yeah, he is. As a genin he did it without Zabuza noticing, in the Chuunin exams, against Kiba he did it multiple times and again against Nagato.

Henge is also a academy jutsu, yet Naruto has used it to fool countless opponents from gennin to god level.

First, none of them are. Secondly, I can upload images of my entire Naruto collection, it's rather impressive - But hey if you don't want to accept the list that's up to you, check it yourself perhaps? I just don't see how people can argue against hard fact.

I don't think people actually understand what Jutsu are. Jutsu are skills/techniques a shinobi uses, and although he has many varients of Rasengan they are executed in different ways by utilizing different skills. Naruto combines his jutsu to create far more powerful and innovative variations.

Kage Bunshin is the base of Naruto's entire fighting style, everything he does stems from Kage Bunshin. One of the reasons he is so strong is due to his mastery of Kage Bunshin, even Kunshina commented him being really strong when he did Rasen Chō Tarengan and she was familiar with both Kage Bunshin and Rasengan. In any case, yes, Uzumaki Naruto Rendan is Taijutsu used by Naruto and no it isn't different, it is still a jutsu. It's Taijutsu. Naruto has two Taijutsu styles, one is his base the other is Kawazu Kumite which is utilized in Sage Mode.

You know, at least I'm making decent arguements consistantly for both Jiraiya and Naruto - I've also had my say in other fights. Are you just upset because Naruto is that damn good? Taking nothing away from Jiraiya, it's just that a majority of the time Naruto would indeed defeat him. Favourites and bias don't mean anything when you're looking at facts.

For real, AGAINST KIBA, HE WON COZ HE FARTED, Coz a typical comical situation he won, i loved the way naruto executed kiba with a rendam that looked way more badass than the one sasuke did, but face it, a comical situation that kishimoto created coz he did not knew a way to create an opening in the last hit that kiba was gonna make on naruto, is not a serious way to win, kiba would have crushed him and at least im neutral enough to accept that, When u are under presure ur insides and even ur butthole shrinks so u cannot fart one must be into relaxed to even do it, just in case u want to tell me how u can go ahead and fart everywhere even under pressure. And i avent seen him fart more when he does Kage bunshin before he is able to master it

Im not saying those jutsu does not exist, but that they are creative ways to make a cut in a battle, base they are just 4, that subdivides into more. So think that Jman has been in much situation which give him ways to think in more creative ways to use all his jutsu in superior ways.

Not trolling but tell me the God Level ninja that naruto fooled with his henge

Re: Naruto vs Jiraiya

Originally Posted by Josear XIII

For real, AGAINST KIBA, HE WON COZ HE FARTED, Coz a typical comical situation he won, i loved the way naruto executed kiba with a rendam that looked way more badass than the one sasuke did, but face it, a comical situation that kishimoto created coz he did not knew a way to create an opening in the last hit that kiba was gonna make on naruto, is not a serious way to win, kiba would have crushed him and at least im neutral enough to accept that, When u are under presure ur insides and even ur butthole shrinks so u cannot fart one must be into relaxed to even do it, just in case u want to tell me how u can go ahead and fart everywhere even under pressure. And i avent seen him fart more when he does Kage bunshin before he is able to master it

Im not saying those jutsu does not exist, but that they are creative ways to make a cut in a battle, base they are just 4, that subdivides into more. So think that Jman has been in much situation which give him ways to think in more creative ways to use all his jutsu in superior ways.

Not trolling but tell me the God Level ninja that naruto fooled with his henge

For real against Kiba. Naruto fooled him twice with the use of Kage Bunshin and Henge. Your memory might be a little rusty but you should go back and check the fight out. Against Zabuza he also successfully pulled Henge off without Zabuza, Kakashi or Sakura noticing. Against Pain, after Minato reselaed Kyuubi, Naruto performed Tajuu Kage Bunshin and had them all Henge into rubble - Nagato was amazed by this. He also Henge'd into Fuuton:Rasenshruiken earlier in the battle.

You need to go back and read that part of the manga, because Naruto did all of that whilst his chakra was out of whack. He was gimped in his fight against Kiba thanks to Orochimaru's Gogyō Fūin.

You also need to read the list and the manga again. Any Taijutsu Naruto performs, Kage Bunshin or not, is legitimate Taijutsu. There are multiple variations of Rasengan, and you cannot hope to attempt to argue that Kage Bunshin and Kage Bunshin are not separate jutsu. You claim Naruto only knows 4 jutsu... Seriously? Go read the databooks and see how many of the jutsu I listed you find there.

I really don't know why you're bothering with such a pointless argument about farts. Naruto showed his talent throughout that battle regardless of the end result. You clearly underestimate Naruto and ignore his ability, you also don't seem to understand that jutsu=technique's/skills a ninja uses and refuse to accept certain things that are written in stone.

Re: Naruto vs Jiraiya

Originally Posted by DementedKirby

I'm still wondering about the frogs. What do you guys think? 'Cause the frogs have allegiance to both of them. Maybe they follow whoever summons them first?

In all likelihood, the toads would simply follow whoever they wish, since they have the freewill to do so. But it doesn't matter much, since there's enough toads for both Naruto and Jiraiya to make use of without having to summon the same ones.